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d":1912.433,"text":"立法院第11屆第三會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年3月19日星期三上午9時至11時7分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等14人列席委員楊瓊英委員等10人列席官員內政部政務次長馬世元暨相關人員農業部綜合規劃司副司長韓寶柱暨相關人員"},{"start":1916.275,"end":1943.96,"text":"環境部化學物質管理署副署長陳淑玲暨相關人員核能安全委員會主任秘書王重德暨相關人員經濟部產業園區管理局副局長曾處分法務部參事廖江憲主席張昭吉委員洪璐報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項一審查委員賴瑞龍等16人擬拒災害防救法第3條及第19條條文修正草案案二審查委員謝一鳳等17人擬拒災害防救法第3條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1944.48,"end":1971.826,"text":"三审查委员谢一凤等16人拟据灾害防救法第48条条文修正草案四审查委员丁学忠等16人拟据灾害防救法第22条条文修正草案讨论施加和并寻答委员丁学忠说明提案要旨内政部政务次长马世元报告委员苏巧慧等13人质询由内政部政务次长马世元及相关人员经济部产业园区管理局副局长曾淑芬环境部化学物质管理署副署长陈淑玲答复说明"},{"start":1972.426,"end":1997.85,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員蘇巧慧 丁學忠 高金素美所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分 請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議以上個案均另定期繼續審查條文已宣讀 宣讀完畢好 請問委員會 這個上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1999.738,"end":2027.16,"text":"好沒有錯誤的話議事錄確定繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請內政部部長行政院消費者保護處處長財政部就租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望進行專題報告並被質詢宣讀完畢好我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先是黃婕委員張志倫委員王美惠委員"},{"start":2030.104,"end":2050.731,"text":"蘇巧惠委員我們官員的部分內政部劉世芳部長我們國土管理署吳興修署長行政院消費者保護署鍾惠蘭處長還有我們財政部負稅署倪立新副署長"},{"start":2054.704,"end":2061.29,"text":"OK 好 接下來我們先請內政部劉世芳部長 針對今天專案報告的主題進行報告說明莊委長 各位委員大家早非常感謝各位委員對於住宅租賃業務的關心跟支持表示最大的謝誠那今天就租賃市場透明化的現況與展望簡要報告如下"},{"start":2080.766,"end":2102.125,"text":"為促進租賃市場住宅市場健全發展內政部近年來制定及修正租賃住宅發展及管理條例住宅法等規定建構租屋市場管理法制其中包含一住宅租賃契約全面適用消保法規定訂定及修正各項定型化契約完備租賃雙方權利義務關係"},{"start":2105.188,"end":2127.448,"text":"第二 建立包租代管專業服務制度引導市場朝向專業管理第三 規定包租代管業提供租賃資訊以及轉租案件實價登錄提升租屋市場透明化第四 自2024年8月開始委託法服基金會提供租屋族免費租屋法律諮詢服務強化租賃糾紛諮詢處理機制"},{"start":2130.891,"end":2146.596,"text":"第五推动租屋电费新制促进电费收取公平合理及资讯透明保障租客权益接着就本部在租屋市场透明化推动情形说明如下首先以多元管道取得租屋市场的资讯"},{"start":2148.124,"end":2171.112,"text":"內政部從2021年12月30日修正不動產經濟業管理條例規定租賃仲介業案件應該申報實價登錄2017年12月及2023年2月分別制定及修正租賃條例規定包租代管業應該提供租賃住宅資訊以及轉租案件納入實價登錄"},{"start":2172.472,"end":2198.307,"text":"另外配合住宅法的規定2017年推動社宅包租代管以及從2022年起推動辦理300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案計劃引導房東主動加入社宅包租代管或公益出租人行列逐步強化租屋市場資訊取得與公開截至2024年底透過各管道"},{"start":2199.187,"end":2208.767,"text":"内政部已经取得2024年底有效租约大约是72.7万笔约占潜在租屋市场规模的六成"},{"start":2210.069,"end":2231.869,"text":"其次发布租金统计资讯提供合理租金参考内政部在2024年8月以及今年1月陆续先后公布两次全国各行政区实际租金四分位数统计资料涵挎全国289个行政区涵盖率79%"},{"start":2234.771,"end":2255.019,"text":"以及218个行政区各租屋形态包括整户层独立套房分租套房雅房等的租金统计资料让租屋族更了解不同租屋形态的实际租金价格分布情形此外今年1月也新增发布全国及县市"},{"start":2255.839,"end":2279.875,"text":"知租金平均数统计数据以利民众作为观察整体租屋市场租金变动情形的参考另外考量国内租屋交易习惯与市场特性租约不以书面为必要故全面实价登录推动租屋市场透明化恐面临的挑战包括第一不易掌握租屋市场的实况"},{"start":2280.675,"end":2294.81,"text":"由於租賃契約依照現行民法的規定不以書面登記為必要而且目前契約期間多為短期市場變動可謂頻繁難以全面掌握租約訂定情形及實際內容"},{"start":2295.931,"end":2313.585,"text":"第二实际租金查核困难租金价格易受到房屋个别条件租期长短租屋形态等多种因素的影响而且计算方式多样包含管理费水电费等等难以查核实际租金情形"},{"start":2314.426,"end":2337.912,"text":"第三,资讯失真风险,部分出租人可能规避申报实价登录或以不实作价登录导致市场资讯失真。第四,造成市场冲击,若强制登录可能导致房东转嫁成本,导致租金上涨或退出租屋市场,造成租屋供给减少,影响租屋市场增长。"},{"start":2338.132,"end":2360.605,"text":"秩序以及租屋族的權益因此內政部將以穩健的方式逐步推動租屋市場透明相關配套措施精進的方向包含第一每年定期更新公布兩次租屋市場的統計資料第二已經修正租金補貼申請需要填報租屋形態資訊並將透過地籍及租賃資訊整合借接"},{"start":2364.727,"end":2392.703,"text":"研議不同屋齡建物型態等次類別的統計可行性提供更多元更完整的租屋市場統計參考資訊第三持續推動包租代管與租金補貼鼓勵房東主動加入包租代管專業服務或公益出租人行列除了逐步改善民眾租居權益保障同時可進一步取得租屋市場資訊有助於改善租屋黑市的情形"},{"start":2394.826,"end":2423.144,"text":"結語在兼顧維護租屋市場安定與資訊透明的原則下內政部持續穩健推動租屋市場透明化的相關措施同時朝著推廣友善房東鼓勵租賃雙方訂定長期租約定期檢討定型化契約的規定提供租賃糾紛訴訟等協助相關機制與制度的檢討促進租屋市場穩定跟健全保障租賃雙方權益共創雙贏"},{"start":2424.165,"end":2443.051,"text":"以上檢要報告請召委及各位委員參考謝謝好謝謝劉仕芳部長的報告那麼其他單位的報告我們就請委員自行參閱並且刊登公報那麼我們現在進行詢答這個委員諮詢前遠利做幾點宣告第一"},{"start":2443.311,"end":2466.941,"text":"每位委員發言時間非本會委員6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘我們早上10點半截止發言登記第二臨時提案截止提出時間為早上11點與本會委員答詢完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見好謝謝那麼我們現在進行詢答現在請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言"},{"start":2476.297,"end":2478.321,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":2485.373,"end":2490.177,"text":"租屋市場透明化租屋市場透明化租屋市場透明化租屋市場透明化租屋市場透明化租屋市場透明化租屋市場透明化租屋市場透明化"},{"start":2511.215,"end":2524.04,"text":"我們來看看實際上這幾年大家政府做的狀況有沒有改善我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約數被公開也就是透明化的數字來看很明顯的從2022年底我們有掌握的這個公開的是40萬一直到去年2024的年底已經到了72萬件這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大"},{"start":2533.743,"end":2539.647,"text":"所以表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁相關業務的同仁一個值得掌聲一下那我們接著就來看72萬戶 72萬件"},{"start":2550.526,"end":2559.629,"text":"到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢最有效的政策是什麼呢我們看到剛剛72萬件其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經濟業的管理條例24-1條在只要你的租賃是透過不動產經濟業去處理的那是強制百分之百公開所以這邊就有3萬多件好"},{"start":2574.673,"end":2593.819,"text":"那後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策尤其是這個租屋補貼政策讓大家把整個的租屋市場哇真的真正的都公開透明化起來這是一個最有效度的政策這樣看起來所以你看看我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣數字來看的話其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面"},{"start":2598.38,"end":2617.576,"text":"這些數字其實在這裡小小的岔題一下其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式對數字差異不大但是各種不同標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差所以有時候我也很難說要用哪一個那現在我們用這個你們自己提供的這樣租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話全國已經到達了75%可是你看其他六都來講以雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率你全國的"},{"start":2627.864,"end":2642.355,"text":"有75%公布了可是雙北一個是五成一個是六成部長你怎麼看這樣的現象因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方啊它不是最應該要被公開這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎部長你怎麼看這題"},{"start":2643.618,"end":2662.593,"text":"是的我想非常謝謝委員的關心我想重點是在於說我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分那是最有效的政策啦他的掌握度不高大概在於就私人呢他比較不願意提供有關租金沒有沒有我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低"},{"start":2664.474,"end":2669.178,"text":"其實就租金補貼來講雙北因為大概在符合的這個比例上來講是相對比較低大概以學生為主因為租金補貼他也有一個薪資上限"},{"start":2683.931,"end":2696.266,"text":"他一個薪資上限那所以在這樣的狀況下其實在目前來講全國會申請率最高會是在桃園跟台中也是因為桃園這邊的比例甚至超過了100欸對對對所以他的數據會來自於是說因為珠普的話"},{"start":2701.252,"end":2720.398,"text":"他有一個薪資上限所以以現在所收到的這樣的一個案件來講其實桃園跟台中的比例會是最高你看一下這個表單這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約它不是單純的租金補貼而已喔所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差公委員"},{"start":2724.366,"end":2744.576,"text":"百分之百是因為我們用主計總數的統計資料全國有87萬戶那如果家計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話大概會有110萬戶所以那個租金是以87萬戶來做統計你看我剛剛從一開始到現在我其實是在跟你順一個邏輯我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開透明化 要"},{"start":2745.416,"end":2755.23,"text":"那全國有沒有進步 有最有效達成這個恆功率的政策是什麼看起來是租金補貼那雙北為什麼是最低所以我們一層一層我們要解決問題就是要先找出問題真正的問題在哪裡所以我剛剛是在跟你說雙北為什麼最低"},{"start":2762.219,"end":2789.69,"text":"好 你看起來還沒有到了非常具體的回答我但你有切到一個邊你插到一個邊說最有效的租金補貼的政策反而在雙北可能不見得那麼能夠有效度執行因為學生居多好 這個就是爭點一了嘛那我覺得這很值得探討應該可以再被討論因為學生市場學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的嘛這是其一嘛好 那第二個順著我接下來我要討論的部分"},{"start":2790.93,"end":2810.383,"text":"我繼續跟你討論為什麼為什麼這個租金租屋補貼的部分租屋補貼的部分既然它是最有效的我們回到剛剛那個圓餅圖的部分好了租屋補貼既然是最能夠達成租屋市場公開透明化的政策那我們要怎麼把它加強我上個會期就已經質詢過了不外乎棒子跟胡蘿蔔胡蘿蔔的部分我們來看看來署長和部長看一下這個公益出租人租稅優惠"},{"start":2821.631,"end":2848.792,"text":"稅負優惠其實就是我們提供給這個租屋補貼的政策嘛讓房東願意願意加入這個政策坦白講每個人都是要看利益利德嘛所以當我們讓他當他成為公益出租員的時候我們把他的稅負下降他覺得欸加入這個計畫對我也不錯啊不是只有房客拿到了補貼是有房東的稅負也可以減少那我當然也願意加入這個同意吧沒有問題吧"},{"start":2850.592,"end":2865.699,"text":"沒有人回答是不是可以請財政部來回應這個問題那剛剛統計不是啦我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛那我是請我們那個處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎我只要回答這個單純的部分部長沒有關係啦直接您直接回答或署長回答也沒有關係啦"},{"start":2867.792,"end":2884.465,"text":"讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得所以願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅負優惠會有哪一些其實你也列得很清楚了嘛綜合所得稅房屋稅和地價稅請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過他所減少的稅負"},{"start":2890.149,"end":2908.326,"text":"和他如果加入這個政策被政府知道他有這麼多間房屋在出租的時候他的所得稅增加這兩件比較起來他是多還是少他的總收入到底是多還是少有沒有做過這個統計這個就可以財政部啦內政部他們從來沒有給你資料嘛對不對財政部沒有給你這個資料嘛財政部你們有做過這個統計嗎"},{"start":2913.986,"end":2931.465,"text":"跟委員報告這個他可以享租稅優惠但是我們另外一個規定說這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據所以我們不會去追他以前的稅你要不要針對我的問題回答我的問題是問你公益出租人在這一屆租金補貼的案件當中他得到的稅負優惠和和"},{"start":2933.647,"end":2959.038,"text":"他因為房子這麼多出租了被政府知道以後他的所得增加以後要繳納的所得稅負這兩者一出一進之間比較起來他到底是有失還是有得你們有沒有做過比較嘛我們目前沒有這個統計那你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因嘛你這邊看起來讓他降稅了可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了所以所以"},{"start":2959.818,"end":2986.915,"text":"他最後比較起來總收入還是增加所以他當然覺得這個案子對我無利可圖我就不參加了嘛這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔嘛這是第一個嘛好來那第二個我們來看棒子的部分來棒子的部分內政部房東不擇禁止房客申請租金補貼我非常同意"},{"start":2987.335,"end":3012.704,"text":"有了胡蘿蔔就應該有棒子來我們來看內政部其實你們在111年的時候就已經說了不但房客房東如果禁止房客不得申請的時候房客可以拒絕及主張無效而且如果房東進而要要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅負的時候房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰款"},{"start":3014.765,"end":3028.357,"text":"人具不改正者可加重處五至五十萬法案並得按次處罰我想請問內政部從實施到現在有多少人來申訴你們裁罰了多少件有統計數字嗎"},{"start":3031.059,"end":3047.099,"text":"有關於違反這個規定的部分我們現在沒有統計數據為什麼沒有統計數據因為那個在地方不過我們有統計每年的租金的一個有關租屋糾紛大概有2700多件你沒有統計數據你怎麼知道你這個政策是有沒有效度的"},{"start":3048.151,"end":3060.088,"text":"我要求應該要有統計數據啊不然你訂這個規定是什麼回事呢所以我今天在跟你談論的就是這樣的兩個點好 我們再重申一次整個的邏輯整個的邏輯就是我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化"},{"start":3064.173,"end":3091.864,"text":"租金普天達成了租金市場透明化非常有功效而且社會大眾都喜歡都滿意現在也已經到達了一個高比率很可惜還有一點點落差所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔財政部應該要就公益出租人的所得到底能夠得到多少的優惠提出具體的數字來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合"},{"start":3092.944,"end":3108.022,"text":"棒子的部分也就是內政部對你自己提出的這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字並且繼續追蹤讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行並且提高這樣同意吧"},{"start":3109.023,"end":3121.594,"text":"部長這樣不好意思麻煩承諾一下我們會跟財政部一起來努力不管是胡蘿蔔棒子的部分但是在執行層面上面我們也需要考慮到說是民法契約上面的規範完全同意我同意部長這個方向所以我也認為不應該直接修法變成是所有的租賃契約通通強制我不認為應該要這樣做因為它每個地區有不一樣的狀況"},{"start":3135.925,"end":3160.655,"text":"而且說實在的我們其實租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明我們要的是一個公平合理的房價資訊所以到一定程度其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況我認為還是應該保有自由溢價的空間只要它在合理公平性這個是可以接受的租市場也是一個產業鏈我們希望它是健康透明的"},{"start":3161.275,"end":3176.087,"text":"這個方向我同意不過我的棒子還有胡蘿蔔的政策的可以在檢討的地方請部長這邊和財政部待會兒研議謝謝我需要資料喔那兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室一個是財政部的一個是內政部的對對對對謝謝好謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢好"},{"start":3189.724,"end":3196.109,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們先請劉部長劉部長有請財政部的倪副組長來財政部有請莊委員早"},{"start":3204.209,"end":3226.683,"text":"好謝謝部長那部長今天要討論的重點我相信是全民非常的關心的有關於租屋市場的一些相關的問題跟討論那我認為現在租屋市場民眾最關心的就是兩點第一個是這個租金在最近幾年的租金的上漲的幅度非常高在主計數今天的報告有顯示在112年113年分別上漲2.16跟2.45那114年到1到21平均上漲是2.53"},{"start":3234.647,"end":3260.025,"text":"那這都已經創下了這個28年來的新高代表居住的成本近年來都在增加中政府我們知道政府很努力有祭出一些的政策可是效果有限那第一個大家租客認為說最近的租金非常的高那第二個剛剛我相信喬惠文有提到現在還是有非常多的房東不讓房客報租屋補貼原因就是稅負的一些相關的問題"},{"start":3260.825,"end":3278.164,"text":"那本席也在去年的7月11號針對現在兩個租屋的非常大的一個重點一個叫做公益出租人就是房客申請租屋補貼的跟第二個包租代管的稅額扣抵的差異提出質疑顧名思義就是說現在"},{"start":3279.185,"end":3299.133,"text":"申請租屋補貼的就是非常多的學生族或者一些一剛出社會的上班族他們就是因為可能需要幫忙所以申請一些租屋補貼可是這個房東的稅負會轉嫁到房客身上所以這個房東的如果他的費用減除率只有43%其實相對來講他的所有的稅負是比較高的"},{"start":3305.675,"end":3328.12,"text":"那包租代管的稅額其實它的費用率是可以扣除到60%所以它的費用率是扣除到比較高那去年其實國土署說要跟財政部討論這個稅額扣抵的這個部分這樣的差異會不會造成一國兩制的這個問題請問到目前來講修法的進度為何我是不是請署長跟您回應一下好 謝謝"},{"start":3329.737,"end":3356.952,"text":"根本報告其實就有關這個稅率的部分事實上我們在陸陸續續都有找財政部談過那因為他會跟個人的免稅額其實扣抵的免稅額其實兩個是在一致的所以這個部分跟署長報告現在包租貸款的免稅額就是43%跟一般的出租人的可以扣除100塊他可以扣除43的費用嘛等於說他57%的稅務要繳稅嘛可是公益出租人的部分"},{"start":3358.573,"end":3373.827,"text":"我再講一次包租代管的部分是可以扣到60%可以扣到60%所以他收到100塊只有40塊要繳稅可是公益出租人就是一些房東他的費用率只能扣40%跟一般的出租人一樣他要57%要繳稅"},{"start":3376.83,"end":3396.502,"text":"所以這樣子的問題是不是可以有一個盡快擬定的一個修法的進度應該這麼說因為原來在這個一萬五以下當然是不用那超過限額的部分那是必要是扣六十趴也剛才講是不是比一般的公益出租人一般的房東要好那但是現在的狀態是說公益出租人是扣百分之十"},{"start":3397.949,"end":3426.79,"text":"43嘛是包租代管還是扣對最主要是房客的部分最主要是房客的部分他還有一個特別扣除額他那個上限那換算租金是一萬五所以我們是因為這樣兩個去比才定在這個一萬五那所以要修的話要兩邊一起調那兩邊一起調就會涉及到說這個一萬五如果放在雙北可能是比較偏低的但是出了雙北他就變成是比較高的水準"},{"start":3427.29,"end":3448.075,"text":"所以這個變成要不要變成因為可是這又是國稅所以他變成說在國稅的角度以下他很難去訂出一國兩制或一國多制的這樣的一個態度因為他不是地方稅所以是不是費用率兩邊都可以扣除60%有沒有機會調整成一制那個這可能要請財政部再來說明一下"},{"start":3450.32,"end":3477.208,"text":"跟委員報告當初社會住宅的費用率有60比較高是因為考量到說房東把房屋供這個包租代管他必須支付業者額外的管理費用或者是說他把住宅拿出來做特定用途啊譬如說這個社區長照或托育服務等等他的房東的費用比較高所以那時候是有考量這個因素給他比較高的費用率"},{"start":3477.881,"end":3498.07,"text":"好所以還是不用沒有考慮說要修正嗎因為他的房東的成本可能比好沒關係這個會後我們再找時間來討論好不好第二個就是我相信很多委員都很關心的這個租屋市場黑市還是有在存在那剛剛其實已經有提供資料現在最大的缺口"},{"start":3499.01,"end":3520.763,"text":"缺口最大的區域想不到在雙北那所以我要請教一下就是說現在剛剛我們講的現在台灣有這個包租代管跟公益出租人的部分就是很多這個房客有申請租屋補貼現在113年取得的有效的租業大概72.7萬筆在潛在的租屋市場規模大概是六成左右那我是不是想請教因為其實現在很多民眾"},{"start":3521.503,"end":3541.085,"text":"它其實是可以看到一些租金的一些現在整個市場的一些租金的金額它是可以在這個實價登錄可以看到的那我是不是可以拜託就是說現在整個業者現在都是一些出租業者他們有義務要去做這些租金的申報那是不是有機會就是我們有申請這個"},{"start":3542.626,"end":3568.346,"text":"租金補貼這些公益出租人為了他所有的這些資料有沒有機會也在實價登錄上來去做一個申報因為我相信這中間還是有很大的一個落差報告委員這個有關於租金補貼的部分我們現在已經依照113年底的有效租約52萬戶已經先做一個租金的四分位統計讓民眾來做一個合理的一個租屋參考那委員應該關心的是租金補貼是不是可以轉到實價登錄"},{"start":3569.947,"end":3591.674,"text":"那這個部分大概會有幾個問題存在第一個部分這個資料因為由房客來申報不一定是一個正確的資料可能會造成一個資訊的失真那第二個部分它也可能會涉及到各自的一個疑慮那第三個部分就是租金補貼其實是政府一個政策希望來協助房客可能也會讓這個政策的美意受到打折"},{"start":3592.014,"end":3614.705,"text":"那這個是我們考慮到的意思那如果房客他沒有辦法來去做一個申報的一個動作的話那未來因為他有收到這個政府的補貼嘛這個政府還有什麼樣的機制可以讓這個租屋市場更加完善那我們現在做的一個部分的話就是利用這個租金補貼的大量資料來做個大數據分析提供給民眾一個整體的租屋行情這樣"},{"start":3615.285,"end":3636.883,"text":"就是說未來就是說固定可能半年就是有個租屋的行情這些數字嘛可是不會要求房客要做一個租金的申報實價登錄不會做好那還有一個實際的關係那我還有一個問題現在就是說因為我們在看這個實價登錄裡面有關於很多的這個租金的費用裡面有分一個坪數跟每坪的一個單價這兩個的數字那我知道說現在"},{"start":3639.986,"end":3653.294,"text":"那個其實實價登錄大家都有在努力就是說分不同的一些的案子或是不同的一些類型的一些房屋他會有做一些比如說是整層或套房或是怎麼樣的一些數據等等這些數據那我裡面有兩個問題要問很多民眾說"},{"start":3656.676,"end":3678.674,"text":"第一個有這樣的內容是不錯的可是裡面一些實價登錄裡面的資訊裡面他看不到比如說押金管理費清潔費這些東西是不是有機會再做得更詳細那這第二點的部分是不是可以請教說如果沒有翻因為我發現有一些的狀況是說一些的這個大樓就是沒有沒有電梯的他的單價的租金"},{"start":3679.475,"end":3701.002,"text":"有些甚至高達一些大樓老舊公寓單平的租金大概是兩千塊將近到兩千塊那這個部分你們未來在做整個這個租金的整體的公佈的時候你們怎麼去區分說這跟一般的比較就是說它沒有公設的部分怎麼在公佈租金的部分有一個可以讓民眾可以了解的一個方向"},{"start":3702.073,"end":3720.521,"text":"OK那個有關於租金實價登錄的部分第一個委員關心到說那個有關於那個大樓比較舊的部分那個部分的話我們現在有把屋齡這邊有特別有標示出來所以如果民眾在選在查詢的時候其實就可以從屋齡來判斷大概他是比較老舊還是新的"},{"start":3721.041,"end":3739.887,"text":"那另外有關委員講到管理費的這一個部分我們現在是有住民如果有管理費要特別去住民那因為管理費一般都是外加所以我們在申報的時候就沒有特別要求業者或是民眾來做這樣的一個申報所以意思就是說民眾未來可以說這個房子是老舊住宅就是說他可能沒有公設就是說"},{"start":3741.067,"end":3761.565,"text":"套房的部分他們比較老舊的部分就看出來說租金的一些差異嘛最後再拜託一下就是說還是很多民眾針對說現在最重要的就是說租屋的部分有很多房東會把這個電價來去跟這個房客做額外的收那我知道現在已經定型化契約的部分已經有做一個調整的一個部分"},{"start":3762.045,"end":3789.299,"text":"不過現在還是我相信很多地方在查緝的時候還是發生很多人是用舊的租約那我希望說內政部這邊也來協助地方政府如何趕快讓這些這些租屋或是說一些電力的一些問題不要讓房客來吸收到過多的這個電費的問題向委員報告一下因為去年8月有電費新制的一個規定所以我們現在都在專案檢查要求業者通路商把舊約下架那讓民眾可以使用到新約好 謝謝"},{"start":3793.484,"end":3794.365,"text":"主席好,有請部長部長有請委員長"},{"start":3819.11,"end":3830.409,"text":"部長好根據最新統計與學者的研究指出我國的租賃住宅市場長期就是存在資訊不透明"},{"start":3831.173,"end":3848.491,"text":"法令執行的落差還有租賃品質低落於供給不足等架構性的問題不僅是影響年輕人與弱勢族群的居住權益尤其是台北、新北、台中等"},{"start":3849.392,"end":3865.8,"text":"房价所得的比较高年轻人也难以负担购物高房价与低薪的矛盾使得很多人逼迫选择高房价或者还选择比较便宜但是又长时间的通勤"},{"start":3869.902,"end":3888.121,"text":"請教部長有沒有具體的方案不要讓我們居住正義淪為口號還如何加速推動租賃住宅的全面登錄謝謝委員的關心我們在今天的報告裡面其實已經有點出來第一個在內政部跟財政部就剛剛委員"},{"start":3890.563,"end":3913.291,"text":"很多委員所關心的譬如說提出胡蘿蔔或是提出棍子這樣的措施都有做精進但是現在比較大的麻煩就是說所謂的租賃市場要透明化的部分牽涉到的是個人的民間跟民間之間的契約那公權力比較不容易加進去也就是說我要求房東"},{"start":3914.571,"end":3928.019,"text":"你要公布你的租金那房客呢他也要求要做實價登錄但是他如果做不到或者是沒辦法做到的時候呢目前我們的法令或是法律基礎比較不容易那根據我們所公布出來的就是現在有72.7萬戶的這個租金補貼的這個部分的話"},{"start":3931.221,"end":3948.671,"text":"目前比較會需要做精進措施多的是落於雙北那雙北的部分剛剛我們很多內政部跟財政部的官員對委員的質詢的時候已經有提出一些改善的措施但是我們需要時間譬如說剛有提到如果我們要把這個所謂的公共設施或者是所謂的這個外加的這個情形列進去的話"},{"start":3951.212,"end":3966.062,"text":"在我們行政院的消保費的定型化契約並沒有包含在內那還有一個就是地方政府呢對於我們現在已經有改善新的定型化契約他到底有沒有做到那這個呢我們在地政司呢做專案查核的時候呢會把它列進去尤其會加強在雙北的部分看到很多的實質都是報告啦如果是很多實質我們有提供數據給大家參考要去修法所以我們才根據在2023年的房價所得"},{"start":3981.552,"end":3983.473,"text":"高達9.72在2024年更高漲了在10.082全台租金的指數就是穩定"},{"start":3997.001,"end":4017.356,"text":"不穩定的一直上升所以說我們看到的是這樣才說要去修法嘛如果是你都在做沒有人反應民眾就沒有收央的話所以我們就不會去修法了所以說許多那個住戶就是沒有揭露他的資訊不是說極有說"},{"start":4021.039,"end":4045.558,"text":"房租是房東沒有介入就不足的話這樣的話我們就是雖然是說我們租賃租宅的市場管理條例以就是規範實錄登錄以資訊提供實成但是就是執行不足嘛所以我們才是說希望考慮就建立就是透明化的平台"},{"start":4046.238,"end":4067.478,"text":"或者有什么惩罚的还有就是说稽查的机制这样子的话才会让真正的我们的民众有保障我们希望的是实际的不是报告的因为如果你们报告有效的话网络或者是说其他人就不会去申诉了是不是这样"},{"start":4069.792,"end":4087.63,"text":"這邊向委員報告一下有關於租屋透明化的部分第一個有關於現在仲介如果沒核的租賃案件或是轉租業者的轉租案件這個都要做實價登錄那第二個部分的話我們也透過一個租金補貼資料來公布一個租金的統計讓民眾來做一個知道"},{"start":4088.359,"end":4106.561,"text":"那這是第一個部分那第二個部分有關於租客的權益保障的部分有關於糾紛的部分我們現在也在推動法服的部分來提供民眾的一個租屋糾紛的諮詢那以現在來講的話每個月大概會有400件的一個諮詢量這個對民眾的幫助是非常大以上報告"},{"start":4108.132,"end":4124.407,"text":"是但是我們現在我們台灣大部分我們都是個人房東所以也缺雜的企業化還有就是管理的機制所以我們希望就是這樣子的品質不穩定落差太大"},{"start":4124.907,"end":4131.132,"text":"才會造成很多的一些問題反而就是說我們在日本我們看到的就是我們的業者還有大東就是建託大東建託的七集團集團在日本他們就關於就是說積水住屋或者積房的管理"},{"start":4148.465,"end":4151.127,"text":"他們用這樣子的機制所以我們希望我們台灣要有一些就是企業化的管理還有專業的進入這樣市場才能達到就是不同的地方因為剛才你回的其他的委員就說地方跟中央啊怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣這樣就是因為我們沒有真正的實際的登錄還有就是我們的"},{"start":4175.489,"end":4180.201,"text":"規劃的管理才會造成很多的黑市不透明的資訊嘛"},{"start":4182.239,"end":4209.722,"text":"所以我們希望說要不管是說租屋或者是包租代管這個部分我們要有不同的策略才能達到我們的人民的需求沒有的話這樣子沒有考慮到這個我們就是說我們要做但是不管任何的公司也好政府也好所以我們一定要依照我們的法令要怎麼樣去訂一些機制"},{"start":4211.663,"end":4230.916,"text":"像说我们的租赁租债管理业者的登录的制度在我们在2021年的时候就是有立法模式就是租赁租债管理业法所以这个是落实的吗我们想要的是落实的吗"},{"start":4233.26,"end":4245.414,"text":"這邊跟委員報告委員有特別關心租賃條例有關於向日本的一個專業管理的部分那我們從106年制定那一個租賃條例就引進包租代管的制度現在全國大概有1782家的業者那也有2萬個一個"},{"start":4249.698,"end":4266.413,"text":"已經測驗合格的一個管理員那這個對於租屋市場有非常的幫助大的幫助那現在已經包租代管的案件到現在已經有22萬戶其實在租屋市場裡面是佔一個非常大的比例講得很好但是呢依據我們全球的房地產的調查我們國家的租金報酬率"},{"start":4271.698,"end":4275.1,"text":"約2.09%屬於至是極差的等級在低包籌情況下許多就是我們的物主寧可就是放空就是要導致就是"},{"start":4287.367,"end":4301.174,"text":"高房价还有空屋率这个部分所以你讲的是很好但是为什么大家去调查就会这样所以我们政府就是要你出说我们要如何提升就是双方的"},{"start":4303.806,"end":4321.761,"text":"幼嬰這樣子的政策不管是屋主願意提供或者我們的租屋我們要去租的我們的年輕人還有弱勢高齡因為現在很多高齡他們去租屋很多房東是不願意給他們租"},{"start":4323.042,"end":4344.597,"text":"還有說家裡有小孩比較小他們也不太願意給他們租所以這樣子的機制管理的話對我們的弱勢者有什麼幫助這個部分我們也希望說我們內政部這邊要提出更落實的更便民的這樣子的機制才能達到我們的居住正義"},{"start":4345.393,"end":4351.824,"text":"的口號不要只是說叫做口號而已沒有真的是我們是很驕傲在我們台灣的這個租屋的問題"},{"start":4357.78,"end":4380.911,"text":"最後也麻煩一點時間跟我們回應第一個我們透過包租代管的話希望把市場由個人房東轉為專業管理那這個部分也可以加速一些空屋的一個釋出因為幫忙房東來做一些管理的動作那第二個部分的話現在社會我們的包租代管其實也有結合社宅的包租代管可以照顧到更多一個弱勢戶以上報告"},{"start":4381.811,"end":4384.753,"text":"所以我覺得我們現在最後給我一分鐘我們是要解決的問題就是我們要強化囤房稅還有就是房地合一的稅也減少就是投機炒作還有增加社會租宅的供給"},{"start":4402.561,"end":4417.57,"text":"还有保证我们的租屋的合理性还有申请门槛也是要公平改善就是租屋市场的范围也提升租屋的保障就是杜绝我们市场交易不合理的"},{"start":4418.03,"end":4422.375,"text":"去約這個是有很多的還有這是包含我們新住民他們是沒有身份證他們離婚了帶著小孩有的房東連租給他都沒有給連他們的要租了又沒辦法給他們設戶籍這個也是一個很大的一些問題"},{"start":4438.711,"end":4455.658,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說我們要積極去推動不要說就是地方還有中央有落差七成也有落差像我們新加坡就是有族群的分別還有職業的分別還有不同的領域"},{"start":4459.478,"end":4476.834,"text":"來去做管理還有我們的族群來去分配我覺得說我們台灣要多去參考其他國家的才對我們的人民更有幫助以上謝謝好謝謝麥玉珍委員下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢主席謝謝主席我們保庭部長有請"},{"start":4488.052,"end":4499.683,"text":"普通我們今天要做透明化的問題的實際登錄本事要跟你談到的就是之前我們在內政委員會也有討論過也有很多官司都反對這個的做法"},{"start":4511.374,"end":4525.964,"text":"本席要向您在此探討的是,到目前為止,是否有很多官司,反對透明化的實際登錄的做法,是否保證,您來回答一下"},{"start":4527.885,"end":4533.627,"text":"我們在跟地方政府溝通的過程當中其實不在於地方政府執行的程度他們也願意配合因為租賃市場越透明的話對房客或者對於房東本身啊能夠產生比較好的措施要穩健來推動如果你一方面要求所有的都要做實價登錄的話"},{"start":4553.174,"end":4568.913,"text":"那房東他可能不想租屋了,整個租屋市場在萎縮的話,不利於房客,但是如果你,然後如果你說以這個房東為主,然後你稅也可以減免,然後也可以不用登錄的話,他這樣子對於房客來講的話又不公平"},{"start":4572.677,"end":4575.999,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓慢慢的可以不要影響到第一個個資保護還有在市場的推動上面能夠比較這個健康的話我們已經有推出一些措施譬如說剛剛很多人提到的公益房東或者是社會住宅或者是我們用這個去這個識別化的狀況先公佈72.7萬戶我們能夠掌握到的這個租金補貼的方向提供給大家參考也就是說如果有租客看到這些數目的話他會覺得說"},{"start":4602.21,"end":4607.754,"text":"既然他今天要去租房子,不要讓人家騙了然後對房東來講的話,他也不要覺得說你的價格與眾不同,太高了但是我要跟大家報告,我們大概不會去處理那個頂級的譬如說今天有人要去租地寶,我們可能不會去處理那一塊所以我們現在出來的不可能是白的"},{"start":4625.845,"end":4631.268,"text":"因為有時候你的租金的實價登錄的時候你像剛才我們補充說的那已經回到最高的最高的租金的行情如果破亂了會越去越遠所以在這補充我是怎麼說的花這麼多時間要給你解釋說因為我覺得這需要我們台灣的百姓所了解"},{"start":4654.002,"end":4658.145,"text":"要做人也好,要人做也好,要了解清楚,不然有的會怕想說自己長期跟長期長久,跟嫁沒長期,跟我已經堅固,要做也不知道要怎麼做自己的中央政府,是他們的願望,可以做得好,可以"},{"start":4678.171,"end":4682.015,"text":"欠貴金錢的人 去做事的人 會不會他的負擔更輕所以 寶丁你剛才的解說 我覺得重點不在這裡是不是你還有要補充什麼 來 寶丁"},{"start":4693.527,"end":4720.544,"text":"感謝委員啦我相信這個租賃市場的透明化要慢慢去引導啦引導的部分就是說要租客本身或者是房屋的這個房東他自己本身覺得朝著這個方向是好的雖然我們已經制定很多法案包括包租代管業者不動產經濟業者那目前也有人慢慢朝這方面推動那目前我們嘗試著再跟這些包租代管業者就是說能夠互相互動更好能夠保障"},{"start":4721.004,"end":4733.088,"text":"房客跟保障這個房東自己本身兩方面都有得利譬如說剛有委員在講說這個房屋的這個租金過低那房東不願意進入那這個也是我們擔心的尤其是雙北是一個比較大的這個狀況大家都集中到雙北的時候呢"},{"start":4737.529,"end":4755.094,"text":"展現在我們租賃市場透明化上面呢就會比其他的這個縣市來的比較少那就表示說這個部分呢我們還可以透過包括社會住宅或是包括包租貸管業者或是包括公益出租人或是包括資訊透明的方向要四線一起推動才比較好你現在"},{"start":4756.334,"end":4769.783,"text":"猛然喔一顆鼓就說我現在要做什麼事情反而造成這個擾動會反而對於租屋本身尤其是對於尋找年輕的青年的這個租客本身啊會有比較大的衝擊啦這個是我們比較擔心的"},{"start":4772.785,"end":4777.407,"text":"普通,在這個地方,我認為困難的問題都在這裡跟本市長說,你也想要做好,做努力的我們要透明化一個法律,是我們也能讓北市的生活更好所以你應該覺得很用心的,去做這個但是在補助的時候,剛才本市長說的,不只做到尾巴"},{"start":4802.196,"end":4804.458,"text":"走到老公站到老娘,再出水沒工再起家,這樣就很害怕了本來跟你說這是最要緊的,沒說實在現在的年輕人也很煩惱"},{"start":4819.073,"end":4825.436,"text":"主一直去,他也怕租金一直去,這是最重要的一部分啦我們補充,這個要去跟上司去關心一下,去注意一下,給未來可以更好在這裡本縣也要跟你談到,我們這個租金裡面都有限度"},{"start":4843.864,"end":4847.326,"text":"電子嘛,在正當的出國的時候,我們就是說出租不可以啦,做的人的電子,可以出台電的收銷的錢嘛,但是假期的時候,他會拉緩嘛,最基本的開始,會發3萬到30萬嘛,但是覺得我這個時候,會發5萬到50萬,"},{"start":4871.138,"end":4880.083,"text":"覺得聽起來,跟你們去檢舉,檢舉做主的人感覺去啦,出租檢舉啦我覺得好玩的是,你們的政策,未來就是最擔心的,電子營照這樣站,藍白衣出水啦,在家裡面的時候,也海融融的"},{"start":4895.493,"end":4899.837,"text":"普通,這種會有時候說他這裡不要去,去這裡我們也在一個政策的時候,可以讓他發生,就安心了沒有有時候,這個年輕人會開心說今天你們收的,今天你們收集的,跟對我們的資金不知道有應有無啦,他說我們有時候"},{"start":4921.076,"end":4925.378,"text":"我們這個租金補貼這個今年300億我們也有聽到補充所說的現在申請的已經63萬幾乎了啦第27已經9千38幾乎申請通過有8千133乎啦要不然未來"},{"start":4947.861,"end":4954.688,"text":"我們的租金補貼的時候,如果沒有發動一天的補貼譬如說補貼到10月,譬如說補貼到10月,剩下的那一兩個月要叫八成,怎麼辦?"},{"start":4963.737,"end":4965.519,"text":"去想辦法,所以說普通,本席是覺得說,我們的膽不膽,看不看,在地方的時候,我們的租金補貼也是很要緊的,像高利貸,"},{"start":4980.237,"end":4982.159,"text":"八千一百三十三戶,一戶兩個就好,就應用到萬樂的了所以補充,這個租金補貼,是對需要的人,分手的煩惱說跟我今年,未來我會做什麼,要去帶酒,要去帶鐵嗎來補充,這個問題你回答一下"},{"start":5007.938,"end":5012.222,"text":"謝謝王委員的關心,因為今年三百億,因為我們是要行政院有一個公務預算撥補兩百億現在當然卡在立法院,嘉義市現在的合訂到三月二十的時候,合訂是八千多戶,八一三七戶,撥款的金額是七千多萬"},{"start":5030.078,"end":5042.029,"text":"但是沒有錯,有可能到10月或11月的時候呢,這個租金就用盡了啦因為本市也有要跟你們談到這個問題可能沒辦法,沒辦法撥得出來啦因為我們錢數不夠,因為我們原先預估的是300億嘛現在200億掉在了,掉在了立法院裡面所以我本市是要跟你說,這看要如何邀議"},{"start":5055.922,"end":5062.409,"text":"去解決這個問題,如果有同事要怎麼去處理,有的同事也會覺得他做法不是這樣我覺得這個問題,對北省的租金來說,應用非常大尤其是很多年輕人,應用很大"},{"start":5078.345,"end":5087.11,"text":"他們是說他的租金打折啦打折打成八折或是打成九折那現在本身要跟你說的就是說你們的申請到現在你們沒夠到現在還可以申請喔因為你們的目標是七十五萬喔那現在六十三萬喔那你們現在說錢沒夠喔那現在這是一個問題喔保證你們的上世紀算得好喔"},{"start":5107.742,"end":5110.944,"text":"本身要跟你說一下,租用住宅,你們在這裡面有規定,我們的規定是40平方公尺,讓我們的台灣位叫做12倍,在這裡面的時候,我認為你們要去評估,再去看看,有時候它的過用,"},{"start":5129.813,"end":5132.056,"text":"阿嬤懷孕,又懷孕了,有時候又懷孕了,你如果規定這個,有時候他會生氣,又沒辦法生氣,我知道你們的後遺,你們之前有想過,我們本來要補貼"},{"start":5146.431,"end":5150.855,"text":"是老白老富剩下,現在老白老富沒剩下,算配合自己啦我認為未來你們要去上市,去看,去處理因為本身的資訊的時間也夠了啦因為最美的一點就是我們的基本資助的水準啦在這裡面已經十幾年了"},{"start":5172.672,"end":5177.033,"text":"你們要如何去處理 去解決問題 正當我們的營養商補償也有說過 要再改 到現在本學所了解的還沒改"},{"start":5188.437,"end":5196.524,"text":"我們補貼這個數據先辦單位用心去處理以上謝謝 我給王議員再補充數字我們累計申請的租金補貼現在是75萬8千多戶合訂的話是64萬2千多戶"},{"start":5207.372,"end":5215.618,"text":"那你剛所提到的就是說他在申請的面積上面的算法的話我們再跟地方政府再來核定一下看怎麼對讓地方政府來做比較詳細的審查"},{"start":5237.112,"end":5245.121,"text":"去配合 去了解啦我們來合調可以讓這個政府的美意 再做好到底我們來改進好 感謝 完美會委員沒關係好 下一位我們請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":5264.704,"end":5283.193,"text":"請部長部長有請委員好部長就剛剛像租金補貼的部分我們今年會不會再有新的租金補貼的核准"},{"start":5283.915,"end":5295.329,"text":"有 我們現在本來就是開放申請那剛剛我有跟委員報告到目前為止呢 申請的戶數是75萬.8戶那核定的部分是64.2萬戶當中那已經有駁回的是2萬3千多戶"},{"start":5300.734,"end":5322.869,"text":"所以剛剛部長你說的可能到11月就會用慶但那是以現在核准的案件數那如果再多增加核准的案件數是不是更早就用完了報告委員我們原來在預估年度計畫的時候就是以75萬戶為主"},{"start":5324.91,"end":5349.004,"text":"所以現在已經核定就是75萬戶那現在的核定件數是64.2萬戶那你現在是64.2嘛如果是你剛剛說到11月底是75萬戶的數量算嗎對已經核定的去算嗎是的那另外今天我們講這個租賃住宅市場透明化"},{"start":5350.188,"end":5379.263,"text":"那部長其實現在大家在講這個透明化可能最大的就是租金有沒有透明化是的是不是大概就是這個問題而已大致上是這樣子但是我們是我們對外的講的部分就是如果公部門可以掌握的我們一定可以對外公布但是如果不是公部門而是私人的尤其是這個出租人本身他不願意公布的話我們在查核上會有困難"},{"start":5380.666,"end":5400.641,"text":"就是它公布的這個金額到底是對還是不對沒有人敢去確定那如果我們就是放在我們自己的公布門裡面把它公布出去的話反而會影響到租屋市場會變成有點混亂所以我們才會說要兩方面一定要齊頭並進的讓它可以穩健式的朝著租賃市場的租金透明化方面發展"},{"start":5401.823,"end":5422.631,"text":"沒有錯啦 因為私人的部分啦有沒有包含水電或者是有沒有包含裝潢我覺得這個都差很多那有的有沒有包含管理費對不對 或甚至他有沒有車位這個都有不一樣的這個價格啦所以你要去"},{"start":5424.682,"end":5450.727,"text":"實質上掌握到它是不是合理是不是以目前我們所有政府相關機關也沒有辦法做到百分之百報告委員那個我們跟地方政府其實地方政府他們也是非常同意要朝著這個資訊透明化發展但是確實就像您所說的真的非常困難因為數據如果失真的話就影響到整個租賃市場上面的一個健全發展這個是我們比較擔心的部分"},{"start":5452.347,"end":5470.119,"text":"對那回過頭來我們所有的公部門的比如住住中心的或什麼的我們這個的現在有沒有做到百分之百的透明化的應該有住住中心有我是不是請我們處長來跟您回應一下他在做統計上面百分之百的透明化"},{"start":5470.802,"end":5495.522,"text":"我們目前已經有收集租金補貼、社會住宅等相關公佈門的這些租賃案件的契約全部都已經把它對都有對我只要就問只要是公佈門的已經百分之百透明了然後有公佈了我就是問這一個沒錯嘛好你請你先請坐"},{"start":5498.238,"end":5508.919,"text":"所以部長其實啊如果沒有今天這樣子啊很多人啊也都還不知道公部門已經百分之百公開透明給大家查詢了"},{"start":5510.787,"end":5539.048,"text":"這一點很多人可能還不知道是對不對可能我們對外宣導不足啦所以我們再繼續來宣導不是不是不是對外宣導不足的問題我覺得我們在講每次講說我們做了多少做了多少了你做了很多但是你公部門已經百分之百了你這一點可能比例多少不知道我現在不知道但這一點要先讓大家知道"},{"start":5540.131,"end":5547.084,"text":"我覺得至少公部門它是已經透明化了公部門的地方因為我為什麼要這樣特別問"},{"start":5548.246,"end":5575.6,"text":"其實公部門就沒有我剛剛說的那些差異性那麼多啦對你這一棟你完全沒有裝潢的多少或是你這一棟是包含裝潢多少公部門沒有那些差異性對不對甚至差異性非常小是不是這樣是如果按照委員這樣子的說法我是覺得說在公部門能夠掌握到的資訊已經是實價登錄了啦"},{"start":5576.54,"end":5605.073,"text":"百分之百實價登錄但是私人部門的話我們能夠掌握到真的很難因為公權力不容易掌握到民法所規範的部分沒有錯啦部長我本來就是要跟你講說公部門已經實價登錄了而且公部門你的實價登錄你的條件你的條件大家都很清楚可以去看你沒有裝潢不一樣你沒有說我這一戶要付車位這一戶沒有付車位"},{"start":5605.453,"end":5633.536,"text":"你的標準幾乎都是一樣的所以這一個我覺得啦我們在這個租賃市場要透明化的部分我們現在做的我們也沒有說你們錯不過我會建議把公部門的這個部分啊獨立出來讓人家好查詢讓人家好知道我這樣我會查我現在不管怎麼樣但我知道公部門大概多少這樣可不可以啊"},{"start":5634.983,"end":5660.488,"text":"那個我們目前已經公佈了兩次有關公佈門的這些租金的相關的資訊包括他是套房啊 整層啊 雅房啊那是在哪一個行政區甚至是在大學周邊的這些我們都已經有公佈他相關的統計資料Bobo 我知道你有公佈啦我的意思是說在網站上把它分開來讓民眾一查就知道啦我們來研議"},{"start":5665.089,"end":5685.656,"text":"其實我們也希望說我們公部這個公部門的部分能夠做這個定毛的效果譬如說住宅在某一個市中心區它的租金就是這麼高那旁邊你不可能突然是三倍高但是就是像委員所說那裡面如果裝潢非常的好或者有副車位等等這些那其實它的租金就不是我們能夠一手掌握的"},{"start":5686.436,"end":5708.254,"text":"對 我覺得我們公部門的條件都很公開你就讓大家去查詢 你這個是沒有裝潢的你是毛配物或什麼的 或你有帶什麼的你租金是多少 你怎樣 你就是很透明啊你這樣完全透明 我一查就很清楚嘛那你私人的部分 可能他的房子比較好一點 他裝潢比較好一點可能貴個幾成 我可以接受啊"},{"start":5712.437,"end":5734.015,"text":"我覺得這樣子就很清楚了因為你要一步做到一百分我覺得很困難啦但我們不是不往那邊走不過你這個公部門百分之百可以透明讓民眾非常清楚了解的我覺得先讓民眾非常清楚了解這就很簡單了好 我們來改進好不好 謝謝好 謝謝張宏祿召委下一個我們請黃婕維援諮詢"},{"start":5748.991,"end":5774.886,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請劉部長劉部長有請好部長好首先先跟您請教一下最近有一件事情我非常的在意就是在上禮拜四的時候台北市政府竟然說中央內政部有規定擺這個罷免的連署攤竟然要申請集會遊行那我不知道部長當然你有在媒體上面澄清過了可不可以在這邊再次的說明真的有這樣的規定嗎"},{"start":5776.467,"end":5789.063,"text":"沒有,我跟委員報告一下,那個其實在不管是院長卓院長或者是我,在行政院接受立法委員質詢的時候都有提到說這是選舉罷免創制複決是人民的參政權利,那我們要保障他們的權利的時候要先能夠維護他們的安全"},{"start":5795.47,"end":5812.103,"text":"那台北市警局跟台北市政府他們最後有一個台北市警局的一個方案出來那我也是非常清楚的表達就是說第一個我們要保障所有公民他們的這個權益還有保障他們安全但是並沒有特別指涉到選舉罷免法那後來 對不起指涉到這個集會遊行法"},{"start":5815.526,"end":5843.353,"text":"那後來我了解到就是因為台北市政府有一個單行法規他這個單行法規要求如果你要登記集會遊行的話呢他必須要六天前登記而且要繳交三萬元的租金那後來我要求警政署再通令全台灣各地的警政單位的同仁就是說還是以院長跟部長所指示的為原則跟所謂的集會遊行法完全都沒有相關"},{"start":5844.281,"end":5866.374,"text":"好 謝謝部長非常清楚的說明我認為台北市政府在這個基本的人民的公權利人民在行使他們公民的權益上面竟然用這種方式來刁難我認為非常的不齒那所以我覺得在這邊再次的說明是非常重要的我甚至懷疑說台北市政府這個蔣事府是不是有違反這個選罷法53條裡面妨礙公民來從事罷免活動這樣的規定"},{"start":5871.437,"end":5875.398,"text":"所以我認為在這邊必須要予以譴責我也不希望說明明是保障人民來行使集會遊行自由的這樣的權利最後變成刁難公民的這樣的限制好 那另外一件事情我也想要跟部長再次確認因為這個租屋補貼對很多年輕人來說真的是幫助非常大"},{"start":5892.762,"end":5896.825,"text":"那剛剛其實部長也有說到說租屋補貼從50萬戶已經提高到75萬戶了那在之前在審這個國土管理業務的預算的時候被藍白刪掉了1.4億然後凍結了41億那我認為這是非常嚴重的一件事情所以其實之前有試算過如果真的照這樣子刪下去凍下去其實租金補貼是會嚴重受到影響的那可不可以請部長在這邊說明一下這樣子是真的"},{"start":5924.303,"end":5938.994,"text":"補助的租戶的數字以及這個租金的金額是不是都會受到影響對也就是說未來的方案到底是降低他的這個核定件數或者是降低已經核定的個別的租金"},{"start":5939.614,"end":5966.437,"text":"目前我們仍然在這個研議當中但是我們仍然不希望朝這方面發展因為就像黃委員所說的申請租金補貼年輕族群真的非常多不管是單身或是就學或者是就業或者是有那個這個學齡前的兒童這個是我們比較關心的部分所以這個部分也是拜託委員可以在立法裡面多多幫忙包括山跟洞的部分千萬不要去動到這個租金補貼的部分"},{"start":5967.83,"end":5994.134,"text":"好那我們能幫的都幫了阿富翼案也過了阿所以只是說接下來如果可以盡快解凍的話當然也是希望可以盡快解凍不要去影響年輕人的租金的這個權益那再來回到今天的這個主題喔我想要其實剛剛前面很多委員都有提到了租屋市場目前的資訊不對稱的問題還是蠻嚴重的所以我還是希望未來可以更公平然後更透明這個是大家都想要做到的"},{"start":5994.574,"end":6015.714,"text":"那我看了一下這個租金補貼其實實價登錄我認為是已經開始逐步有成效那我也在這邊想要另外肯定一件事情是這個租金電價的部分因為租金電價的新制上路之後確實對蠻多租客來說是一個福音那因為我自己過去也是十年的租屋族那也知道說過去大家都有被收過一度五塊這種事情"},{"start":6016.815,"end":6043.163,"text":"那新制上路之後不能超過當期的平均電價這件事情其實是對租客一個很重要的一個基本的權益啦那這個我這邊想要特別提到的是就是租金透明化這件事情那裡面我想要講的是這個代管業啊就是雖然你們說這個是民間對民間那我們政府端到底有沒有一些方式是就是我們跟代管業者來對然後讓他們跟"},{"start":6046.865,"end":6050.885,"text":"租客之間可以讓這個租賃市場是可以更透明的"},{"start":6054.421,"end":6079.322,"text":"包租代管業的部分的話其實在現在包租代管的建築裡面其實代管案件其實是佔非常大的一個比例那因為很多房東的部分他沒有多餘的心思去做一些管理一些修繕那現在的部分我們也其實也透過包租代管業者來協助那個我們房東那透過代管的部分把這些那個空屋把它釋放出來"},{"start":6080.663,"end":6095.977,"text":"房客可以受到照顧房東也可以輕鬆解決掉很多事情對但就我所知因為代管業者其實因為他不負責收租金嘛所以變成說租金的這個大致的區間跟他的金額其實就會變成是一個沒有辦法你們去"},{"start":6096.912,"end":6121.922,"text":"管理去介入的一個部分那個部分有關於代管要不要租金實價登錄的部分其實我們在去年有辦過一個座談那業者大概會有幾個顧慮第一個他沒有辦法掌握到一個租金的行情因為他不一定會收租第二個部分房東有些不希望他的一個租金資訊透明揭示所以他反而如果要強制實價登錄有些房東可能"},{"start":6122.402,"end":6148.98,"text":"就連代管都不給業者來做代管反而會讓整個一個市場更不專業所以業者大概會有這些疑問所以我在想要如何你們還能怎麼去協調業者讓他們同時願意揭露某種程度的可能是一個區間或者是更細緻的說那至少他可以提供基本的一個行情嘛那不要說很明確的數字那一步一步來但是不能說都是因為他們遇到困難所以就都不管"},{"start":6150.902,"end":6177.5,"text":"這就是我希望你們解決的啊那現在的話其實我們現在會就我們的資訊的部分來做一個統計的處理讓民眾可以透過相關的其他的方式來知道一個租金的透明的行情好這個真的要拜託那另外一件事情我想要講這個租屋品質啊因為其實在我們住宅法裡面規定有說申請政府的租屋補貼他必須要符合第40條定的這個基本的居住水準"},{"start":6178.24,"end":6191.227,"text":"那可是這個基本居住水準裡面的明文規定其實都只有提到說應該要符合多少的面積大小但是並沒有提到安全性的部分那其實我們現在租屋的市場裡面那種獨立的套房跟雅房就是"},{"start":6194.388,"end":6205.671,"text":"房東可能又把它分割成很多小的房間然後安全跟消防可能是有疑慮的這種並沒有放在這個基本居住水準裡面也就是說雖然我們政府非常用心給大家300億去進行租屋補貼可是因為這個基本的居住水準裡面沒有提到相關的安全部分也就是說雅房他出租的時候他一樣可以跟你們申請補貼可是他可能沒有符合安全的需求"},{"start":6219.355,"end":6230.855,"text":"所以我在這邊是希望具體建議這個基本居住水準裡面可不可以也去提一些安全性的需求否則現在市場上很多這種雅房其實完全不符合消防安全的規定"},{"start":6234.581,"end":6249.332,"text":"感謝委員的確我們當時在討論的時候大概因為因為像面積或有一些基本設施因為各縣市的差異很大所以當時我們也請地方政府是不是能夠就自己各縣市的特殊的規格去開"},{"start":6250.373,"end":6275.761,"text":"但委員剛剛提的這個安全的部分我講這個建議是非常值得重視那我們回去也會去做一個討論就是說看是不是在某些方面是給他這樣子的一個要求但是相對啦如果房東願意來加入的話我們也把他納入到後續的修繕費補助裡面把這些項目把他明文訂出來那這樣的話對他們來講雙方都是一個品質的提升對好很棒謝謝署長那我希望朝這方面來努力好謝謝"},{"start":6278.362,"end":6292.26,"text":"好 謝謝 下一位我們請黃建斌委員質詢好 謝謝主席 主席我們有請部長 劉部長有請"},{"start":6295.771,"end":6308.72,"text":"部長好 部長在討論今天註定市場透明化的議題之前本來想要把握跟你備詢的時間跟機會請你跟勞工 全國勞工們好好的談一下也表達一下你的態度就是上個禮拜我們討論到的這個審查 國定"},{"start":6312.284,"end":6329.112,"text":"加入這個法案其實我們這一黨的立場很簡單就是希望還家於民讓辛苦的勞工朋友能夠增加放假的天數減少工時這是提升勞犬一個很重要的基礎那勞動部長洪部長還表示說增加放假天數有正面討論的空間"},{"start":6329.952,"end":6358.852,"text":"那對於五一勞動節是否列入國定家的行政院長行政院的人事長也表達說他不反對所以可見其他部位都願意正面來看待勞工增加放假天數的事情不過部長上週非常遺憾的是身為主管機關的您對於修法增加天數議題不但沒有正面回應而且還講出一些令人匪夷所思甚至讓勞工生氣的話部長我想過勞的問題是勞工們的心酸跟血淚"},{"start":6360.973,"end":6379.124,"text":"那也是勞團真實的聲音所以本集在這邊也要嚴肅的跟部長您來說希望好好聽勞團的聲音跟災黨好好的來討論修法還給勞工應有的放假的權益那接下來我們回到今天謝謝委員的關心我想我上週在談到了"},{"start":6379.424,"end":6400.513,"text":"就是說勞動節我們的勞工本來就放假那內政部的主管是假日跟紀念日所以對於勞動節的勞工放假本來就是已經存在那但是勞動節當天要變成全國放假的話是其他非勞保的這些人的放假那這個有討論的空間但是討論多少的空間的話跟我們的實施辦法並沒有絕對的相關"},{"start":6405.775,"end":6430.948,"text":"謝謝部長 這個我們再來討論相信部長也願意為老公朋友的權益來爭取好 我們回到今天的議題就是目前的社會我們年輕朋友的工資偏低又面臨高房價 他不敢成家他也沒有辦法來成家所以以本席所在的台東來說很多鄉親都會選擇在北部或西部工作那為了能夠負擔我們的生活費跟房租只要選擇犧牲"},{"start":6432.549,"end":6452.549,"text":"他的生活品質房租越低越好但是在我們房價資訊不透明的情況下租屋主他完全是沒有他是處於資訊不對等這個弱勢地位那根據我們這個租客聯盟租屋狀況調查指出我們高達54.2%的租屋主因為第一個房東拒絕或者是"},{"start":6456.713,"end":6470.689,"text":"恐懼房東不利對待而無法使用租金抵稅在111年審計部的決算報告裡面更提到由於多數的房東他不願意繳稅他不願多繳稅或者以自用住"},{"start":6471.73,"end":6488.755,"text":"自用住宅稅率來申報來逃避我們租屋收入的瞌睡造成政府對租賃市場掌握非常有限產生租屋黑市的問題導致中央以及地方機關雖然推動租屋補助的措施但他卻無法發揮效益我想除了"},{"start":6492.651,"end":6507.421,"text":"黑市以外非住宅的稅率問題也讓許多的租客受到影響喔部長如果你是租客你會去查屋主的不動產他是屬於自用住宅還是辦公室嗎我想一般的租客不會了解嘛對不對"},{"start":6508.601,"end":6531.81,"text":"那台中就有一個案例一個年輕人他租屋前他問房東說他可不可以申請租屋補助結果租了之後去申請發現他登記是用辦公室的不是自用住宅所以不符合這個補貼的條件然後被退件那這樣的情況我想不只是個案的問題很多地方都有發生這個就是資訊不對等的狀況下租屋主他面臨的困境跟困難"},{"start":6532.91,"end":6547.12,"text":"那我想不論從民眾的感受或者實際的社會案例裡面或者是審計部的說法都可以看得出來目前的政策遠遠不足不過本席看了你的報告內容內容總共是七頁半"},{"start":6549.702,"end":6566.637,"text":"結果前面的五頁都是在幫內政部說我們內政部做了哪些事做得多好結果民眾最想知道的那一部分就是未來我們政府該如何改善跟精進相關的內容只有一頁左右而已我想今天內政部的報告在民眾眼裡面是非常的敷衍又不及格"},{"start":6567.557,"end":6581.934,"text":"那我想今天內政委員會排定內政部來報告就是希望能夠聽聽內政部你們怎麼來具體的改善我們台灣未來租屋市場長年資訊不透明的問題嘛在這邊本席也希望喔身為不動產買賣出租議題的主管機關"},{"start":6585.27,"end":6601.102,"text":"內政部應該更加負起責任讓民眾看到你們有意願再向前走一步幫助民眾掌握市場的實際供需量跟交易的金額然後進一步來制定相對應的多元居住政策"},{"start":6602.083,"end":6620.343,"text":"讓房東房客都能夠更有機可循有衣可循透過更加透明的規則使得租屋的市場邁向更健康成熟的方向那這邊本期也具體的建議我想除了修法相關的修法之外政府現在其實就可以做一件事情"},{"start":6621.223,"end":6638.112,"text":"就是將我們手邊大量的這個租屋市場的資訊做定期性的分析跟報告我們公佈各區域之間的租屋價格的區間我們建立一個官方的平台我們公佈我們北京百分之百都公佈了是好我們讓我們的租屋組可以有需求就可以進行比較嘛"},{"start":6638.812,"end":6642.754,"text":"讓我們房東在訂價格的時候他也有一個參考依據租客也大概知道說我大概市場在哪邊我們避免租的黑市持續的損害我們租客的權益請我們內政部下半部分能夠來演繹這個事情"},{"start":6657.8,"end":6673.199,"text":"謝謝委員我們剛剛已經回答過很多委員就是公部門能夠掌握的租屋市場的資訊已經公布所以現在租屋市場百分之六成總共六成是有效租約的話是我們內政部公布而且已經公布兩次了這個在租屋市場是有定毛的效果"},{"start":6674.04,"end":6692.843,"text":"但是那個剛剛委員所垂詢的就是說不管你是要提出比較好的管制措施或是比較好的引導措施在法律上我們能做的已經做到非常多但是比較重點就是說我剛剛一再強調的說租屋市場的實況因為它是現行民法規定這個是私人對私人之間"},{"start":6693.444,"end":6702.509,"text":"他們的這個實價登錄的部分不容易讓他可以對外公佈那如果他們都是提供不實的資訊讓我們公部門來公佈的話反而會影響到租屋市場的部分那再來就是說剛剛委員有提到你說在台東的地區當然那個社經階層比較這個不高的部分的話呢可能要申請租金比較不容易我跟委員報告一下台東縣到目前為止我們核定的這個租金補貼的戶數已經有4107戶"},{"start":6722.58,"end":6746.074,"text":"那現在所要撥款的金額高達是4000多萬所以事實上在很多不管是非六都的偏鄉地區申請租金補貼相當的多那我們的內政部的立場不一定是站在房東的立場我們是站在比較多數族群的租客的市場上面來做幫忙但是如果我們現在強制他們要做不實的實價登錄"},{"start":6747.395,"end":6755.884,"text":"反而發生很多法律上糾紛的時候整個租屋市場反而不利於租客也就是說房東要出租啊啦那我們現在說房東如果出租太貴怎麼辦那太貴怎麼辦有很多不同的方式我們提出了要可以幫房東來減稅可是他們要不要報稅的問題呢那大概就是我們不要跟財政部一起來努力還有一個那個租期很短"},{"start":6770.239,"end":6776.867,"text":"有的人他去那邊三個月那我們要求他三個月就要把租金就直接要做實價登錄實價登錄放在我們公佈門的網站他這個租賃契約可能已經解約了那另外按照我們現在行政院消保會的規定"},{"start":6785.216,"end":6803.354,"text":"譬如說包括這個管理費水電等等這些啦都要把它弄非常清楚不可以劣跡進去我們已經在去年就公佈所以事實上呢是一步一步的採取穩健跟往前推動的市場倒不是委員所說的早上內政部都沒有在處理現在我們所根據的法律或條例上的規範我們能夠處理的部分只要不涉及個資的我們幾乎都是採取開放而且馬上對外公佈"},{"start":6810.14,"end":6822.232,"text":"好 謝謝副長非常詳細的說明我們繼續為我們未來的這個房租的這個租客的權益來做一起來努力那謝謝部長也謝謝主席謝謝黃金平委員 下一位我們請丁學忠委員質詢感謝主席 請讓副長"},{"start":6836.486,"end":6844.995,"text":"我們今天要討論這個租房市場的問題我們租房市場主要的年齡階層都等於30歲以下左右這個年輕人近期我們這個民間"},{"start":6859.838,"end":6863.161,"text":"統計數據,在房價比較高的各國所購房屋平均都已經到40倍,代表我們出銷的醫療有超過10年,都要靠這個做出來度過,所以我們"},{"start":6875.77,"end":6878.433,"text":"這個房租是年輕人最實在的一個基礎對我們年輕人來說這個房價以外比較實在這個房租的問題但是以我們的組織總署的統計"},{"start":6892.101,"end":6896.583,"text":"出租的基礎是超過1.6%這個收益持續創下歷史新高再來看這幾年的數據出租的年增率有1.256%"},{"start":6908.029,"end":6913.672,"text":"這是連鎖19個月超過1.4年以來的累積增幅已經到9.3%這個驚人的數字凸顯出這個租屋族他的壓力當然這一直攀高的租金我們來經過當過過端各項進程也都最近這幾年有開始推動這個租屋補貼或是高租代管或是這個社會主宰"},{"start":6936.936,"end":6942.479,"text":"顯然啦,政府我們的努力,要是國度阻止到,我們這個租金的上漲啊,再來眼看今年那個電價可能又要上漲齁,中間還有一顆的高峰,所以今天請國長各個齁,這個租賃市場的這個各個,讓我們進行可以加強,才可以真正的廣授到我們這個租屋者"},{"start":6962.813,"end":6966.217,"text":"感謝委員的關心 針對租金補貼的部分 首席鄉也很感謝李煥英 玩意在很多法律庭館幫我們倒三工但是我們今年當的最大就是114年300億元的中央擴大租金補貼的部分大概有200億元"},{"start":6982.977,"end":6996.673,"text":"現在還是沒有辦法由行政院的公務預算來撥補我想我們會非常的努力來幫忙尤其是年輕的租屋的族群跟委員報告一下像目前我們現在所核定的64萬戶裡面40歲以下的大概佔54%"},{"start":7001.519,"end":7021.221,"text":"也就是說將近有34.7萬戶跟青年族群是走我們這個租金補貼的部分那也希望委員能夠多多幫忙就是租金補貼的部分在未來在山洞的部分不要再走這個山跟洞的方式因為要不然到年底的時候我們會可能要減少它這個租金補貼"},{"start":7022.122,"end":7038.292,"text":"或者會降低他租金補貼的申請戶數這是我們最大的期盼那在雲林縣雖然說雲林縣是農業大縣可是雲林縣也是有很多申請租金補貼的部分在定位碗理所服務的婚姻館裡面申請這個合併戶數已經是13,383戶裡面大概超過1億"},{"start":7047.057,"end":7066.786,"text":"需要撥款的金額是超過一億啦齁但是到十一月的時候會用慶米紅裡面就沒米拜託你倒三天他還可以我們應該我們的我們結帳的我不知道這是立法院的程序我們就尊重立法院的程序所以這可能我們來建國要跟立法院要跟我們我們現在已經跟立法院在溝通我們內政部是跟著行政院的這個政策方向來走的齁"},{"start":7076.571,"end":7079.274,"text":"好啊 其實 把我們這個與省用餘在民間 用餘在民間身上我們是一定都全力支持啦 一定全力支持 感謝委員相信說 我們國中你也知道說 我連一戶人"},{"start":7094.245,"end":7104.29,"text":"一個人也沒有跟你們同時一個人也沒有跟你們刪除啦依賴的過分啦我們尊重一彎 但是我們不敢這樣用啦 因為就沒白紙黑紙給我們行政院的公文我們是不敢這樣用 公文我們沒辦法照顧他們的法律犯罪依賴來做這些事情 這是縣跟縣溝通的部分啦 是是是 我們是將對地方"},{"start":7119.377,"end":7120.999,"text":"的訴求來給我們鼓掌歡迎當然這個委員會前面有討論我們委員都要求來政府要強化這個資金的價格的揭露但一直以來我們政府"},{"start":7134.551,"end":7140.335,"text":"有連這個實際房東房客數量到底多少我們要求說有一個很明顯的確定沒有沒有 我跟那個委員報告一下我剛才有在我們的報告裡面說到只要是公募文裡面包括包租代管或者是我們的住宅"},{"start":7151.323,"end":7177.408,"text":"或者是我們可以有效掌握到我們已經公佈了大約六成那另外的沒有辦法公佈的部分可能譬如說他的那個他是私人跟私人之間的這個契約你要去掌握到他的契約真的是非常的不容易那現在我們就是想辦法要縮小譬如說只要能夠介入我知道財政部要提供多少減稅措施"},{"start":7178.308,"end":7193.711,"text":"但是有些房東他可能也不願意他覺得說我如果提供我的租金的範圍之後雖然可以減稅但是大家都知道我租了多少錢還有重要的就是他提供的這個價格他提供的這個租金到底是對還是不對那我們沒有辦法公部門沒有辦法幫私人的民法契約上面的這個租賃條約跟他做這個保證說我這個保證這個要做一萬塊是一萬塊還是真的太慢二塊"},{"start":7207.253,"end":7212.676,"text":"所以事實上我們現在公佈了在公佈門能夠公佈出去的租金市場是做定貓譬如說我們在大陸或是在粉林這個地方有某一個社宅或是某一個區域裡面我們公佈大概這個價格是多少的話其他的人可以來稍微看一下差不多這個介紹不要超過太多這個鄉鎮啦這個鄉鎮其實有可能因為是有很多介紹"},{"start":7236.089,"end":7243.779,"text":"我們分成四分位然後根據他的房型又分了大概分成三所以其中有十二個部分是可以做處理的差不多這個區塊啦你不可能一間一間啦這個區塊每個多少這樣啦"},{"start":7251.269,"end":7255.611,"text":"他們這個廣場起來做活動對 他是幾層的 還是幾戶 還是一戶的 還是獨立套房 這我們都有分區在做但是我們這個只能達到定毛的效果 因為房子又有新又有古 還有一間一座或是外座 還有地段"},{"start":7268.337,"end":7292.01,"text":"這個博文是比較複雜但是我們盡量朝著透明化來發展但是百分之百透明化按照台灣是一個尊重法治跟尊重私人的個資的話是做不到的啦好 還有一項問題就是我們這個我們這個租屋網站訊息的這個系統我們現在要做的工作是朝日當時半年以後 下一次什麼時候"},{"start":7296.095,"end":7313.733,"text":"我們預計我們現在已經就是去年3月去年8月跟今年1月已經公佈那我們預計在今年的6月跟今年的12月會再公佈那個新的這些租這會持續的調整應該是公格後的最終的版本"},{"start":7315.034,"end":7335.318,"text":"我們每一次都會公布出來新的就表示說我們繼續收集這個統計資料看起來我們大概是每半年會公布一次像那個屋齡啦 類型一樣一樣 會我們在統計上面這個很容易做得到譬如說屋齡一定是越來越老不可能越來越新啦這個是不可能的好 感謝國長感謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝第一學中委員的質詢也謝謝部長接下來我們請劉許廷委員質詢"},{"start":7347.432,"end":7351.639,"text":"好 謝謝主席啊 劉部長有請有請部長好 部長辛苦啦剛剛大家在談這個"},{"start":7356.198,"end":7382.589,"text":"相關預算一些解凍其實我今天排這個案子不外乎也是為解凍做準備因為我們談租金補貼難免凍結當然就是監督的延伸希望在這個相關居住正義的題目上面我們的政府機關有很好的KPI而且有很好的執行成效那當然大家就不會為難預算那我想目前為止都算有一些進展那你還沒辦法嘛你總要等預算總統公告失效之後才能開始排解凍案嘛這我想部長也不會反對這是標準的作業流程"},{"start":7383.149,"end":7410.999,"text":"那本席作為召委我可以在這邊非常開放的跟部長說如果內政部只要準備好相關的報告我們趕快走程序這個你要求本席來做排案解凍我也非常樂意支持就希望內政部速度加快好不好這樣大家都不擔心可以嗎謝謝召委好謝謝剛剛很多委員都談這個這個租賃市場的這些相關的一些改革那不只部長我還拜託主席再幫我們請財政部一起因為我先從大方向開始談"},{"start":7413.577,"end":7431.424,"text":"剛剛蘇小慧委員講紅蘿蔔跟棒子然後我們的政府機關不太願意直接面對問題的核心其實如果按照全部大家都叫病叫假都給他課稅的狀況來講房東當然會負擔比較多的稅負那從政府機關的角度他也會擔心所謂有轉嫁的效果"},{"start":7431.784,"end":7450.718,"text":"我收到因為我被課很重的稅啊所以我又變相的調漲了房租壓力其實很大所以其實談這件事情應該要好好思考一個方向也就是說現在的這個房東的租金所得其實並計他的個人所得嘛通常可以當房東就好一點啊對不對所以他可能本來的所得就很高了"},{"start":7451.278,"end":7475.418,"text":"所以他這個房屋的租金所得加在他本來的所得上面他可能課12% 20%甚至40%嘛 對不對所以壓力很大 對不對所以一直都有人在倡議就是說財政部這邊要不要思考一下把租金所得獨立出來變一個稅務這樣是不是讓我們的行政機關根據你可能要調節市場的狀況有的時候要鼓勵一下有的時候要收緊一下我是不是透過這個稅務跟稅率的調整才能夠比較好針對房東的課稅來做處理"},{"start":7478.2,"end":7502.274,"text":"部長 劉部長你認同這樣的做法嗎如果我們有一個獨立相關的稅務來討論就是說這個房屋租金所得房屋租金所得稅然後他有一個獨立的稅率的話這樣會不會比較好調控就我們的目的事業主管來講我覺得這是一個很好的方向但是稅務還是不是內政部所主導我不知道我不能說是或是不是我要問你的意見嘛所以你覺得好方向來財政部有沒有針對這件事情做思考"},{"start":7503.252,"end":7529.7,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在的那個綜合所得稅他的稅率他可能所得很低他是0嘛那他有可能所得很高他可能是40那我們如果在中間切一個稅率譬如說20這個稅率的話那高所得者他會降稅然後是用0啊或者是5的比較所得低的他就會稅負就會增加啦那以房東而言其實有很多房東他其實他如果只有出租一兩間兩三間的房屋他的那個稅負算起來因為我們有"},{"start":7532.961,"end":7533.642,"text":"我沒有講說他一定20%我講說獨立一個稅務然後你看我們的政策方向來做調整"},{"start":7557.401,"end":7582.11,"text":"你在這個獨立的稅務裡面你一樣可以有分級的機制嘛你一樣可以有一些相關機制的設定嘛對不對那另外再跟委員報告依照我們實務上跟房東接觸的經驗很多房東他不願意他的租金透明他其實是不想繳稅啊所以不管稅務是在10% 15%所以這第一個嘛你要有獨立稅務第二個這我不反對這我都可以公開講我不反對有所謂的大赦條款"},{"start":7582.89,"end":7587.859,"text":"因為豬市場黑市的狀況造成的政策負擔跟後果的成本其實遠遠高過你那個"},{"start":7590.108,"end":7618.019,"text":"幾萬幾萬的這樣一個稅率的所以你如果有先有獨立的稅務然後搭配所謂的大赦條款是不是讓大家通通可以納管然後進入一個新的秩序啦本期今天提這個就是你真的要提紅紅波的時候跟棒子的時候其實就是把這個東西進入深水區我希望財政部好好來做思考好不好跟內政部充分來做協商把這個東西列為可能的項目啦要不然你在現行的情況之下萬一政策遇到瓶頸那還是一樣嘛對不對好不好這第一個大方向來跟大家做思考那財政部再等一下齁來"},{"start":7621.432,"end":7636.549,"text":"這個前一陣子我們開了這個房租抵稅的記者會因為今年開始有新的這個制度上路嘛好就是說我們又把這個從變成劣局扣除額嘛好把它變成就是說也就是說給房客有更多的一個減稅的機會但是請問財政部目前的評估有多少房客知道這個事"},{"start":7639.039,"end":7661.032,"text":"跟委員報告因為今年五月報稅是首次要適用這個新的扣除那我們大概因為五月報稅我們大概會開始最近就會開始密集的宣導這個新措施這個大利多是對這是一個利多嘛那本期這兩個要求啦這前一陣子我們記者會我想財政部應該也看到了第一個就房租的資訊其實是有辦法代入你們現在都有報稅系統嘛"},{"start":7661.932,"end":7670.983,"text":"那其實你抱歉現在其實按照內政部講大概說七十幾萬戶其實都有掌握資料那是不是可以直接做借接系統借接這第一個財政部現在做得到這個事嗎"},{"start":7672.155,"end":7699.439,"text":"目前系統直接借接沒有辦法因為房客他報扣除了他另外有房客的條件那他不是直接內政部那邊過來的資料就可以用如果他技術上有困難你研究一下怎麼樣來突破這沒有關係因為馬上上路嘛我現在要你變出一個新的制度恐怕也為難你這個本席理解但你要往這個方向去思考就是說萬一你的宣導不到位導致今年還是很多人不知道這個利多的時候你的這個系統借接其實是可以補上很大一塊的缺口嘛"},{"start":7699.759,"end":7712.156,"text":"所以請你去研究也許明年我們來做思考那第二個你好歹要有一個申訴或諮詢的專線吧那萬一遇到了不給報啊或者是說我不知道狀況我想多問一下請問財政部現在針對這樣子有沒有提供相關的一些服務"},{"start":7713.799,"end":7738.251,"text":"我們報稅諮詢本來就有相關的諮詢的服務是我的意思是說針對新制啦這個抵稅諮詢啦你要特別去講一下有新制諮詢的這個申訴專線啦那你會有提供資料啊這我們要跟我們的租屋朋友來做宣告就是我們會有很多的管道不管是諮詢或者是他的QA沒關係你把它整理出來好那個其實讓大家都去協助去轉發其實都對你的政策宣導是有幫助的好不好好"},{"start":7739.298,"end":7754.023,"text":"好那謝謝財政部來我們繼續來內政部部長換你了辛苦這我們今天在討論租屋市場透明化對不對那前面本席曾經有提過就是說比如說包租代管先來做所謂的實價登錄那當然我們當初的政府機關這個講說"},{"start":7755.883,"end":7776.39,"text":"這個一步跨得太快我們希望給政府機關一點時間來分的步子來前進這個本席願意尊重也在密切觀察你們的表現所以你們現在推出了這個所謂的租金統計資訊也就是剛剛部長所報告的這個分行政區來做這個這個25分位50分位跟75分位的所謂的租金市場的這個揭露啦那"},{"start":7778.071,"end":7799.085,"text":"我必須講說有進步但是還有很大的進步空間因為你第一次發布的時候真的只有行政區跟最粗略的版本那照你今年年初發布的稍微細了一點至少開始有一整戶的獨立套房的跟分租的有開始往比較細緻的方向來前進這一點是不錯的但是核心的問題本期還是要透過這一次的質詢來強力的表達"},{"start":7800.526,"end":7827.988,"text":"第一個你這個租金的統計資訊是沒有獨立系統來 部長你這份PDF檔就是在你的內政部不動產資訊平台的租金統計資訊的PDF檔它的點閱次數是多少你們有統計嗎這個點閱次數我們應該是會查得到但是我目前沒有手邊資料目前沒有對不對你覺得是很多還是很少我認為應該會有一些人會有一些人但是其實知道的人不多啦"},{"start":7828.608,"end":7857.177,"text":"這以本席的了解啦知道的人恐怕不多沒關係你把點閱數字調出來你會後提供給大家參考因為這是一個重要的指標我為什麼講說要有獨立系統因為那系統就像大家查實價登錄一樣嘛我想買房子的時候我去查實價登錄系統或是我想租房子的時候我也會跟民間的業者去查詢相關的行情要嘛你做出內政部的獨立系統好好推廣要嘛你要跟比如民間的比如說那種591租屋網等等你來做借街也不是壞事你這樣是不是整個的資訊的易達性會比較高好這是本席的第一個提醒"},{"start":7857.637,"end":7873.836,"text":"中委員報告一下那個有關於推廣的部分我們現在跟591已經有合作那他們會可以連結過來包含我們也通把那個告知所有你跟各個民間有在租房的平台來做串聯啦然後要把這一樣你要把成果附上來因為你現在我可以炒到成果大概只有長這樣"},{"start":7874.537,"end":7899.314,"text":"好 第二 所以要嘛你有獨立系統 要嘛你跟民間姐姐 這第一個建議第二要細分生活圈啦 以本期的選區龜山來講就雖然你龜山區是一區對不對 跟我龜山區是四個生活圈啦渥渝區回籠跟新莊很靠近 渥渝區平頂跟林口很靠近渥渝區跟桃園很靠近 渥渝區跟蘆竹很靠近它其實還是有生活圈的差異啦所以我還是希望 一步步來做沒有關係我今天講你願意有時間 你只要讓我看到每半年有成果"},{"start":7899.974,"end":7915.368,"text":"這個我都會正面看待因為這本來就要逐步來處理但是你說從行政區要繼續往下走不要只是停在這裡要不然畢竟粗略啊因為一個龜山區我到底以哪一個生活圈為準呢每一個生活圈其實狀況是不一樣的所以我覺得要氣氛生活圈你們有這樣子的打算跟"},{"start":7918.13,"end":7932.654,"text":"狀況嗎跟委員報告其實跟租屋網借街其實大概就是一個起步啦因為你也知道說租屋網他才會用一些關鍵的地點我知道委員的意思大概就是說把一些關鍵地點作為一個區分這或許是長期我們可以"},{"start":7933.294,"end":7950.474,"text":"逐步來做但是我們當然也會過程會很小心因為因為有些部分因為不管是學區也好或一些關鍵的工作地點那當然常常會有出現租金異常波動的這個我們會在中間再小心的來控制這個部分好第三個是沒有美萍的這個租金中位數"},{"start":7951.275,"end":7975.192,"text":"因為你這個有數字但是還是很粗略啦我現在就講嘛 不管是類別也好 地理位置也好或者是你相關的這個數字也好 你都要更詳細嘛你越詳細你才會越接近透明嘛 對不對來 請回答跟委員報告 那個部分委員建議美萍的那個部分的話我們現在也在研議當中那我們會串接我們的地級資料會知道它的面積有多少"},{"start":7975.692,"end":7986.212,"text":"那這個部分的話因為會有幾個限制就是可能分出的部分面積就比較難掌握所以我們會從整層跟整套的整層跟整套先做嘛所以我想好"},{"start":7987.313,"end":8013.18,"text":"這樣子今天提了這三個要求對不對你是每半年更新資料嗎還是多長時間更新資料現在的話規劃是6月跟12月所以我下一次看到更新資料的時候是6月對不對我可以多看到哪些哪些具體的資訊那個有關於美萍的那個租金單價現在已經在做一個處理那因為還要看資料匯進來的一個品質是怎麼樣那這個部分的話我們已經現在演繹當中了"},{"start":8013.88,"end":8026.644,"text":"好我希望六月可以看到好的結果啦好不好我們就你既然講說給你時間來分來往前走這個我願意給你時間但你要讓讓他讓最後他可以變成一個符合租客權益期待的這樣子的一個版本齁好這個蕭寶處麻煩一下"},{"start":8036.98,"end":8063.632,"text":"我也好這個我們每一年都在針對不管是租屋的基於透明化的政策等等其實都涉及這個相關法令的一些修正那麼相關法令的一些修正當然就跟你的契約等等會有一定的聯動跟關係嘛那租賃行為當然是消費市場的行為前一陣子我們台灣市政府查了一下這明明法令一直更新可是市售大概有六成的租賃契約因為大家都用定型化契約嘛一拿一簽蓋章就成立了嘛可是你這六成以上都是舊版"},{"start":8064.272,"end":8091.736,"text":"然後你就說當然我們就說輔導下架輔導下架有用嗎更新的狀況怎麼樣你有掌握嗎這個更新的部分因為我們內政部呢都長期以來都有他定一個計畫從111年以來內政部都有辦一些這個這個查核的計畫針對這個市售的通路上面的租賃契約到底合不合規做一些討論然後做一些查核那其中有一年我們也是跟內政部一併去查核我們都會協助他們一起去查核那內政部查核的結果怎麼樣"},{"start":8092.726,"end":8105.914,"text":"向委員報告除了跟消保處合作之外我們也有延定計劃要求縣市政府這邊要來做一個查核從111年我們第一次的話不合格率的部分就是舊版的話大概是"},{"start":8107.995,"end":8136.334,"text":"比例 契約的比例大概是三成不過112年跟113年的話就降到5%跟7%所以是有明顯的下降那去年的部分因為電價新制的部分有新的更新的一個契約的一個狀況所以舊版的比例又拉高不過我們這個現在還在持續在做這個方面的一個查核向委員報告這我其中拿一項來提醒你啦比如說要記載這個房屋基本資料等等然後它其實要提供圖說嘛"},{"start":8137.575,"end":8153.432,"text":"這個就本期的了解在市售的定型化契約上完全沒有預留相關的空間了所以我是覺得既然這個法規都有在滾動式來修正其實你這個定型化契約的範本跟這個你要與時均的更新啊你要讓業者可以馬上跟上啊這樣子才有辦法具體來做下降這是本期的另外一個提醒"},{"start":8154.433,"end":8181.751,"text":"來最後一個題目不好意思我今天耽誤了一點時間我還是要請部長我們討論一下這個社宅的分級租金制度齁這去年的十月喔大家這個民團有民團的意見這本席了解那部裡面有部裡面的為難這個我也知道中央有中央的想法地方有地方的想法它是一個很困難的題目但是在大家的追蹤之下這個在去年的十月基本上開始找到共識了喔大概會是用這樣子的方式來調整我就不多贅述喔來我請問一下這個"},{"start":8183.943,"end":8188.315,"text":"署長或者是部長就是這個版本了嗎目前大概就是26號還會用這個版本繼續討論"},{"start":8191.044,"end":8214.802,"text":"什麼時候會有一個明確的定案應該這麼說這樣分期以後我們還是要了解各縣市政府如果他確定執行的話他可能還會有什麼樣的問題或困擾目前你掌握到的狀況有哪些問題或困難嗎目前來講因為各個縣市對這樣的一個尤其是這個中低收入戶的一個認定那他們當然是期待是說"},{"start":8216.267,"end":8241.21,"text":"衛福部的這個中低收入的這個數據是他們一般來講是最信任的啦也是大概目前來講比較所以他們回去他們上次回去就說大概回去會按照這個去了解看看看他們這樣是不是確定可以做好這樣的一個分級那第二個就是說因為大概非六都會以中央為準那大概我們也有請駐都也確認看看這樣的一個操作模式這樣是不是確定都可行"},{"start":8241.59,"end":8270.413,"text":"所以未來就會照這個原則上只要沒有太大的問題就會照這個方向確定定案了嗎大致上會照這個方向OK好那如果喔我多問兩個問題喔如果以採取分級租金現在比如說新北台北桃園啊這個他們也會配合這個版本然後大家做修正嗎還是說他們會再加碼或者是說提供更好的版本這個其實個性是多少有一點為難多少有一點為難對大家制度本來不一樣像桃園像桃園大概應該就很困難因為它現在已經面臨要調整也很辛苦的一個問題"},{"start":8271.033,"end":8279.825,"text":"所以他們原則上也會follow這個制度嗎希望啦但是不一定能夠做得到沒有強制力因為我們沒有一定強制他做因為各縣市狀況不一樣"},{"start":8281.161,"end":8303.45,"text":"好 這個我希望喔 這個趕快溝通因為從完全沒有共識 對不對本來是什麼身分別釋價打折跟分級租金收取制度嘛到現在大家開始聚焦那我就希望這個部裡面要多加油啦 好不好針對這樣的事情我希望3月26號的會議裡面可以聽到好消息會議的結果一定要讓我們知道因為我們都很關心這個相關政策的一個推動的進度 可以嗎好好 謝謝部長 組長 辛苦了"},{"start":8306.838,"end":8319.981,"text":"先請署長跟市長署長跟市長就請謝謝昭偉剛剛也講得很清楚今天排這個豬肉市場透明化的這個議程是為了提"},{"start":8336.025,"end":8354.369,"text":"為了這個相關預算的解凍做準備啦我感到非常的欣慰那去年在動這筆預算跟刪另外一筆預算的時候嘴臉可不是這樣但是好的開始啦我們今天可以好好來討論這個租賃市場但是剛剛這個朝偉在討論這個宣導費用的時候"},{"start":8363.41,"end":8391.69,"text":"就是在檢討這個地政司在跟所有的包含新的契約包含我們去年的住宅租賃定型化契約裡面對於電價實收實付的原則這一項那就約宣導的部分可能會造成你如果下去宣導或者是有房客直接來檢舉相關的這些內容的話會發生一件事情會有很多房客會有很多房東被重罰為什麼"},{"start":8393.814,"end":8421.459,"text":"因為可能他還是就約沒有換約那所以就約的比例會非常高那你們去年的這個宣導費用被刪了多少?向委員報告一下齁那個部分的話是由縣市政府來做一個執行所以業務費的話是由縣府來縣市政府來執行縣市政府沒有被刪到所以你們的宣導費用那我們的部分就會透過新聞管道的部分來做一個宣導好你們的宣導費用不會宣導到這個"},{"start":8422.299,"end":8437.891,"text":"另外對於去年度我在這邊主張有很多的租客那其實需要遇到這些包含房東不給他報租屋補貼的時候那他必須要有一個專線後來內政部有成立了一個專線嘛那這個專線現在的運作狀況怎樣有沒有接下來"},{"start":8443.214,"end":8458.464,"text":"的計畫非常感謝委員因為有委員的一個支持所以我們現在跟法輔基金會來做一個租屋糾紛的一個諮詢的部分那現在這個專線的部分是法輔基金會的一個專線那我們大概也統計過還是在法輔裡面對對對"},{"start":8459.444,"end":8474.081,"text":"那從去年的8月到現在總共7個月的話已經有2700件的一個諮詢電話大概平均的話一個月會有400通的一個電話那是不是應該要來成立一個內政部的服務專線或者是直接在內政部服務專線裡面來處理這個事情請署長來署長"},{"start":8483.984,"end":8498.374,"text":"就這個部分的確啦因為發生在租金補貼的部分是最多啦我想這個部分因為我們本來有一個有一個服務的專區啦就是說我們也有相關的專線那過去大概都以資格查詢或者是協助他"},{"start":8499.134,"end":8520.619,"text":"怎麼樣去申請為主那其實這一年多來任務已經慢慢可以在減少因為很多回歸到地方政府去審查那所以未來我們來跟地政室討論一下我們是不是把兩個合併起來把這個服務的量能就是針對租屋糾紛的部分把量能把它擴大那這部分我們雙方一起來我這邊其實收到的最多的還是這樣那我相信"},{"start":8521.219,"end":8534.945,"text":"希望在今年度是可以減少這一方面的問題就是說還是有租客跟房東之間他們存在一個房東不希望租客去報租務補貼雖然財政部已經在這邊講了好幾次說他們不會用這個契約來對房東施予課稅但是房東還是會害怕因為有這個所得稅它是跟所得稅合併的問題"},{"start":8547.23,"end":8570.911,"text":"如果所得稅在18萬以內年所得稅在18萬以內可以減免的話其實對很多房東來講他可能會卡到稅率43%或20%的問題會影響到房東會要求租客不要這樣所以租客其實打電話進來大部分的問題是說房東這樣問房東這樣要求那他們還可以申請嗎署長"},{"start":8572.967,"end":8580.977,"text":"如果你講出來他們還可以申請的話萬一他們沒有房子租萬一他們因為這樣被房東趕出去責任就大了"},{"start":8582.11,"end":8610.462,"text":"了解所以這部分的確在他們雙方在法律上或是民事的溝通上這的確都還要進一步努力所以我才剛剛會委員的建議是我們現在做法就是說我們未來把我們的這一個新莊的這個服務中心想辦法來跟這個法府這邊雙方來結合看是不是透過不管是透過服務上的溝通或是民事上法律上的一個解決這我們雙方都來努力我們再合作來努力看看"},{"start":8611.643,"end":8634.736,"text":"謝謝今年還是會有大量的這個租金補貼的申請之外高雄今年會有開始有包含我們的從實安居包含高雄其他的這些社會住宅會開始有包租代管業者需要進去服務所有的這些可能需要這些社宅的這些朋友們那所以呢包租代管的業者變成非常"},{"start":8635.456,"end":8647.093,"text":"非常龐大的業務需要處理那我也在今年辦理會刊的時候感謝署長還有次長當天都有來那因為高雄市政府的這個設宅已經先開始先行了"},{"start":8647.56,"end":8670.93,"text":"所以當天高雄市政府其實有傳授很多給我們內政部未來他們所遇到的問題 包含管理那包含這些設備的更新 包含冷氣等等都是接下來整個包含住戶中心 包含國路署 包含這個所有要進行包租代管的業者所會碰到的問題那所以我想要比較一下"},{"start":8673.833,"end":8694.333,"text":"所有的縣市裡面我想高雄的社宅的規劃跟興建是跑在最前面那比新北市比桃園市比台北市比台中市都還要都還要多而且都還要快那台中市目前申請租金補貼的比例卻是全國最高"},{"start":8695.95,"end":8712.215,"text":"它全國最高,但是在這個社宅的興建上又是在六都裡面是排行第五那有沒有相關的這些問題來顯示說台中市在財化法規劃下,現在預算才剛公告"},{"start":8715.677,"end":8736.065,"text":"那接下來部長之前也有大概有說明我們的如果在財化法執行下去的話我們的預算執行可能會減少28%是這個對於大量興建社宅規劃社宅的高雄市與台中市比較不積極這樣比較起來相關的這些補貼你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":8740.087,"end":8753.523,"text":"應該這麼說啦 因為我們補貼是沒有分縣市啦那其實在這裡面很大的一個族群是學生族群那因為以我們所知大概在台中大概光學生申請的戶數大概就將近9萬戶"},{"start":8754.904,"end":8772.454,"text":"所以在這部分的數量其實相對是龐大那其實到雙北也有很大的數量是這一個學生族群那所以相對來講他們對社宅的需求不管是現在就讀的學生或是剛出年輕剛出社會年紀他需求是"},{"start":8773.154,"end":8786.747,"text":"非常的高那未來其實裁判法如果真的通過要執行的話那因為中央的裁員勢必會受到影響那所以我們在這個部分可能會把這個部分大概地方如果有新開發區的這個狀況"},{"start":8789.75,"end":8817.289,"text":"那我們本來都期待新開發區能夠加速來興建社宅那中央會主動來出手來不管是取得土地或是成足土地可是那就就如果未來財源減少的話這個部分我們可能會把會希望由地方政府來負擔最大的一個責任那這樣的話那在就財化法以後的公平性來講大家都一樣要負責照顧年輕人所需要的社宅我們也要要求地方政府"},{"start":8817.789,"end":8840.858,"text":"也要負起比較大的責任我想這部分我們會從這方向來要求我過去也曾經主張我還是這樣主張包含這些縣市政府要提出這些不管是勢力重劃也好那內政部在審核的過程應該要先把適當的這些可能要蓋社宅的這些土地留下來用成本要求地方政府來辦或者是不然"},{"start":8841.699,"end":8853.331,"text":"來我中央來辦那我們還是希望內政部可以跟國土署可以趕快就這一方面來跟地方政府做一些相關的溝通跟討論好這沒有問題這我們持續再辦好謝謝好謝謝李博義委員這個我們預算的解凍應該這個會期可以處理完吧"},{"start":8862.097,"end":8877.331,"text":"應該可以啦齁那當初發新聞講說會影響租屋補貼是11月嘛那我們這個會期應該會在11月以前結束啦好不好所以請博弈委員不用太擔心齁絕對沒有問題我們在政府會討論的時候其實氣氛蠻好的嘛對不對好 謝謝下一位請吳清文為質詢好 謝謝主席我們一位同仁請我我們國土署署長部署長"},{"start":8889.724,"end":8894.005,"text":"還有我們的代理市長市長有請謝謝市長針對我們今天的自訂市場的一些我們的透明還有一些專題的報告那我們都知道租金補貼在本期的資料就有51萬點3萬匹這市場是一個非常大"},{"start":8919.292,"end":8933.191,"text":"但是我們都是知道說為什麼在新北的比例才到60.2%在我們都會去那裡有點不合理是不是請我們署長來說明一下是"},{"start":8937.367,"end":8958.715,"text":"其實是這樣因為在新北的租賃房屋裡面大概因為我們是從租金補貼這個數據出來那也就是說代表在租賃補貼裡面有一大塊是學生族群也就是說我們大概在除了學生族群以外的這一塊那也有可能他有一些是進不到租金補貼的這樣的一個範圍雙門檻嘛"},{"start":8963.627,"end":8970.012,"text":"是門檻嗎?有可能是因為我們在租金補貼的部分有我說明一下應該這麼說啦就說因為我們有設定這個所得中位數的這樣的一個數據那這個所得中位數的這個數據或許在雙北裡面它代表的這個門檻還是比較偏低一點"},{"start":8989.388,"end":9012.155,"text":"也就是說讓很多可能雙薪家庭那他可能平均這個所得是超過這個所得中位數的他可能就過不了所以這也是但是因為在雙北又跟其他縣市差異很大因為所得中位數已經顯示說所得中位數的劃分方式的話在其他縣市是一致的大家出現的那個涵蓋率都很高"},{"start":9012.955,"end":9038.426,"text":"但只有在雙北是偏低的那或許這個部分是我們後續在檢討這樣的一個制度的時候再重新來做一個調整因為在調整這個其實是非常困難因為它也會跟相關的這個房東的這個公益出租人的這個房租上限還有這個免稅它雙方是連動在一起的所以這個部分我們後續應該還可以再來做一個討論那看是不是把未來能夠照顧的比例能夠再拉高一點"},{"start":9039.367,"end":9052.962,"text":"好謝謝 謝謝署長因為齁 既然齁因為租屋的市場齁在在我們新北齁 他的市場非常大你說今天他會來作出尤其在年輕人齁覺得他的他的需求"},{"start":9053.843,"end":9059.727,"text":"高,他沒有理由說不來申請租屋補助,在這個部分我們一定要深入去了解所以,來,現在正在說這個租屋補助的部分,剛才我們李博議說的,我們朝夕擺這個應該是預算要解凍啦這都是因為牽扯到未來,在租屋補貼,在年輕人我們都是要"},{"start":9080.061,"end":9104.709,"text":"去考量到但是現在你說針對我們包租代管很多因為房東的問題但是你說在我們新北很多國有土地應該我們從國有土地我們大量的興建一些社會住宅這是一個比較永續你說很多都是四地重劃七段徵收很多你像"},{"start":9105.969,"end":9130.721,"text":"新增啊 新增溫泉要好幾百公頃你那個土地都要提供啊我們都是來推動我們的社會住宅因為這市場很多年輕人他們的需求嘛他們買不起房子啊所以說我們租補貼 你要補貼 我們房價要高他們又更不可能買得起那我們就是從社會住宅來找索是不是有署長"},{"start":9133.004,"end":9158.304,"text":"其實跟委員報告啦因為雙北的確是需求量最大那但是其實找地也是最辛苦的那所以我想我們在過去這一年多來大概都跟地方縣市政府溝通那所有的新開發區都應該要預留雙北大概百分之五希望能夠留出百分之五的土地來做這個社會住宅那第二個就是說因為"},{"start":9160.057,"end":9186.582,"text":"預留了以後其實也有這個購地租地或跟興建的一個成本那所以我們大概在目前都還是非常努力在執行那當然就會像剛剛我跟其他如果財化法真的去通過以後那我們就必須要在這個責任要再要求在地方政府身上因為變成說地方政府要更積極的來興建否則以現在來講中央蓋的數量是已經超過地方而且這個數字是不斷的在拉大"},{"start":9187.122,"end":9203.749,"text":"我們希望地方政府要負起責任來多興建社會住宅因為不要只有賣地因為會很可惜因為賣完就沒有了那在都會區區越來越難找地那這部分我們還是會一直要求地方政府要能夠努力來負起責任來興建沒有"},{"start":9206.552,"end":9222.323,"text":"這個市長其實你說好百分之五你要提供做社會住宅的需求但是你一定要把它記住裡面備住在裡面你就這個土地就是不能賣你一定要蓋我就要求我們才通過"},{"start":9223.203,"end":9238.875,"text":"是現在就是區分啦都市計畫的部分如果都市計畫的部分還在審議的部分大家是都有共識沒有問題現在就是說目前已經有在辦理重劃或屈增當中已經在辦重劃屈增甚至有些已經在配地了"},{"start":9239.355,"end":9263.847,"text":"那這一些就是要透過協商因為他在原來都市計畫裡面沒有被註明那所以這要透過協商那去要求他要去做這個相關的一個興建所以有部分是我們這一年多多努力那其實縣市政府也大多數都有配合做這樣的一個動作好 我們是要解決他們那個我們的社會住宅的推動還有我們的租屋的需求這樣才能徹底的解決年輕人的問題好 謝謝"},{"start":9269.554,"end":9275.936,"text":"謝謝吳清明委員跟委員會報告張其凱委員質詢完畢之後我們休息五分鐘下一位我們請徐宇貞委員質詢謝謝教委我們請劉世芳部長以及負稅署倪副署長劉部長倪副署長有請"},{"start":9293.965,"end":9308.204,"text":"我想請教部長跟我們您副署長我們現在台灣的房價居高不下然後內政部不動產的資訊平台指出2024年第三季全台灣的房價所得比創新高"},{"start":9308.784,"end":9327.442,"text":"來到10.82倍那也就是說民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子那我們再看看各縣市的狀況你看到台北市需要16.6年新北市需要14.03年再看看房貸的負擔率的統計"},{"start":9328.263,"end":9357.025,"text":"全国的平均是46.8也创效新高那台北市房贷的负担率是71.82%新北市是60.69%这个数字显示就是全国家庭可支配的所得46.8%得拿来缴房贷尤其是台北市还要拿出七成来付房贷请问一下部长跟您副署长怎么样什么时候才能改善房价所得比偏高的情况"},{"start":9361.096,"end":9376.343,"text":"那個跟委員報告一下那個部分的話主要這個是屬於購屋負擔的一個部分那對於購屋負擔的部分的話當然我們政府這幾年其實有推動了非常多措施像平均地權條例的修法打草防一些"},{"start":9376.883,"end":9378.525,"text":"請問市長你認不認同現在的房價所得比是偏高的"},{"start":9397.141,"end":9411.607,"text":"現在的話是有相對的一個部分在台北是你的所得七成要來負擔房貸在各縣市我們可以看到其實幾乎啦平均46.8都要拿來付房貸所以我們現在的問題應該是要根本性問題是要解決這個"},{"start":9415.949,"end":9432.907,"text":"這個房價居高的問題嘛那當然因為房價居高所以很多人買不起只能租屋喔那尤其是這個年輕族群啊他們為了北漂或者到地方去別的地方去工作他們只能租屋那所以呢目前我們購物方面有這個實價登錄的平台"},{"start":9434.689,"end":9455.994,"text":"現在做得非常不錯那請問一下部長內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄讓民眾可以輕鬆的報告委員我們在今天的報告裡面有講得非常的清楚只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊的話要求實價登錄我們都盡量做到這就是我們在租屋市場上面大概有60%左右我們已經公布了那也就是說"},{"start":9459.235,"end":9471.123,"text":"另外40%我們就可以繼續來努力然後完成租賃的實價登錄我們會朝著經濟措施來努力但是呢 需要達到我已經剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過第一個就是租賃契約裡面如果你雙方的是私人的租房東或是私人的這個租客那他們在做實價登錄上面的話會不會有不實的一個實價登錄還有就是他們的這個短期的租約啊"},{"start":9486.633,"end":9490.618,"text":"能不能達到用公佈門來公佈那這個呢就是在執行層面上會比較大的問題請問一下不實的實價登錄喔算不算違法"},{"start":9496.358,"end":9521.446,"text":"現在沒有規定所以不實實價登錄是可以的如果依照我們仲介的一個條例還有那個租賃條例的規定包租跟仲介的部分如果不實申報它是有罰則那因為現在委員主要是事成的部分就規範以外那個就回歸到民法的一個所以目前是沒有刑罰所以也難怪說房東跟房客之間他們可以用這樣的方式嘛"},{"start":9521.946,"end":9541.614,"text":"那我想請教一下當然很多人認為我們也聽到很多說為什麼房東房客自己不去登錄的原因是因為他們知道房東有可能會因此不租給他或者是漲租金那也是因為這樣所以不能用這個住宅的這個租屋的這個住宅的實價登錄嗎"},{"start":9544.018,"end":9566.64,"text":"委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題那除了仲介跟轉租業者轉租業以外那個部分的話現在是沒有法源沒有法源那也就是說我們要修法的意思沒有立法的部分剛剛部長有提到就會有第一個租約不易掌握那資訊到底會不會失真會不會影響到市長那我問一下您副署長"},{"start":9568.425,"end":9589.491,"text":"這個財政部會不會藉由內政部建制這個租屋實價登錄對房東稽查課稅如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話跟委員包括現在的相關實價登錄制度都有法律都有明定說不可以作為課稅的依據好那所以沒有實價登錄我們現在所以不能作為課稅的依據也就是財政部不會查囉"},{"start":9590.576,"end":9613.293,"text":"不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查這樣子那也就是說查稅這件事情是本來財政部就該做的是是是所以不管我們實價登錄你都會做是是是那既然我覺得這個財政部為了這個付稅公平的一個原則嘛會積極的查這個查處逃漏稅那所以內政部是可以考慮啊針對這個實價登錄的部分我們能夠來積極的處理呢請問部長"},{"start":9618.22,"end":9638.198,"text":"報告委員我們現在按照法令上面的規範的部分能夠積極處理的其實我們都處理的差不多了就是像我們剛剛所說的還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎因為沒辦法規範它在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的這個所謂的棍子條款那所以這個是在我們而且呢現在的市場上面的就是會"},{"start":9638.979,"end":9661.113,"text":"产生那个负面的效应就是说我们有实价上去的话那会不会变成是租金上涨或者是说他那个房子租不到那这样子对于比较严重的都会地区比如说像双北这是我们目前所看到的比较严重的地区的话反而会造成负面的效果所以我们才在推动的时候是一种建为主我想这个部分我们今天就是讨论嘛"},{"start":9661.653,"end":9676.568,"text":"還是希望內政部能夠提出解方看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題否則對於我想很多的租客來說他們也很希望有一個公開的平台他們可以很了解現在租金的狀況那另外再請教部長就是說我們現在看到社宅的租金問題"},{"start":9677.929,"end":9695.798,"text":"這個租金可負擔市社宅的這個核心價值那目前內政部是依照身份別來計算租金但是這種做法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公那另外呢如果租金是採市價打折的方式又會造成不同縣市社宅因為"},{"start":9696.318,"end":9717.265,"text":"市場的租金落差過大的水平不公那現在呢中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案但是呢很像拼裝車沒有辦法真正解決這個財稅資料不足的問題而且也有可能會漏接落市的一個狀況那請問一下地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理那其實也吵了蠻久了那請問內政部有沒有新的方案"},{"start":9719.546,"end":9742.399,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們在從111年開始都已經陸陸續續開過7次的會議那因為各縣市政府其實在六都裡面比較支持多的還是希望能夠原來有的這一個身分別的部分那再加上部分的這個所得分歧那所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了7次會大概有一個定案也就是大概"},{"start":9743.279,"end":9765.029,"text":"不要再去走一定要完全所得分級也不要一定走身分分級那所以最新的這樣的雙方混合出來會分成四級那大概在這個月的26號那因為在去年11月已經開了第七次會議的時候大致上有一個共識但是回去要個別再了解看看事實上實施以後會不會有新的困擾所以這個部分26號會再來討論確認討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題我們來"},{"start":9770.151,"end":9794.846,"text":"政治來簽報不過這也是給各縣市一個原則一個處理的一個原則我想如果再經過大家的共同討論那在3月26號可以有這樣的一個報告出來我想我們大家也可以我想跟委員報告一下社會住宅的承租者這是我們內政部所主管的但是還有地方上所主管的部分我們都是列入一起討論那希望說會有共識那共識的還是會有原則跟例外"},{"start":9795.326,"end":9820.994,"text":"所以這個部分呢讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理我們也希望有完備的一個方案出來大家共同來解決但我想現在會需要租屋喔大家也希望能夠租到社會住宅那請部長看一下喔其實這個部分我已經也質詢過很多次了就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表部長可以看一下我們社宅的興建的統計表"},{"start":9825.967,"end":9842.476,"text":"我們現在以完工的話大概是有33,781戶這是在我們從114年2月28的我們在這個內政部不動產的資訊平台所download下來的我們可以看到然後新建中是54,134戶以絕標代開工是33,285戶總計是121,200戶那請問一下目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶"},{"start":9854.7,"end":9864.337,"text":"我想就是這個數字現在的33,781那因為事實上因為已經在興建中的大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的"},{"start":9864.932,"end":9875.421,"text":"完成那所以這是過去8年來大家都做了一個努力因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都是說是12萬就是已經在執行中的但是我就要請教這個署長的是有幾戶是可以入住的所以是3萬多了解但是這也是代表供給不夠的問題那當然希望"},{"start":9885.49,"end":9910.878,"text":"我們當然希望能夠盡快的來去完成這樣的一個問題我們一定是盡快完成但是也是還是要表達就是說但是現在其實真正能夠入住就三萬多戶嘛應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間當然當然所以我的意思就是說我覺得政府要正視這個問題而不是就是美化那個數字比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住的沒有美化而且這個都是在努力中而且在執行中我們還是希望是說但是我們還是來正視這個問題我覺得比較重要不是還是要正視是說"},{"start":9913.419,"end":9926.804,"text":"我們希望地方政府要持續的努力因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了所以我們也是要呼籲希望地方政府要持續的努力我們還是希望我們明確的把這個數字揭露出來那大家一起來努力好嗎最後不好意思 稍微一分鐘我想請教一下劉部長"},{"start":9939.741,"end":9958.268,"text":"就是根據行政院發布的2025年的性別圖像的性別不平等指數原來亞洲第一是台灣但現在已經被新加坡超前了也不再是亞洲第一而且已經連續兩年退步而且這次發布的成績也叫前次的退步三名請問部長您對於"},{"start":9960.134,"end":9987.512,"text":"民進黨總召柯建民發表明顯帶有歧視的言論他嗆聲要如舊院市長回歸家庭請問部長有什麼看法第一個我沒有聽到這個柯總召什麼時候講這些話那我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用這個性別不平等或是性別不正確的這個方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去"},{"start":9988.012,"end":10015.345,"text":"我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞那所以部長認為如果是柯總召講這樣的話請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話這樣是不適當的對嗎我想任何人講這樣的話的話呢不管他是什麼樣子的一個政黨色彩對於目前我們所推動的這個性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平"},{"start":10015.905,"end":10032.695,"text":"但是我一再強調我沒有針對個人因為個人他的前言後語是指什麼我並不清楚因為在很多政治人物在講的部分的話我都會比較審慎去看他的前面跟後面講的是什麼所以我很高興知道部長講到您對於這種性別平等您是捍衛性別平等的"},{"start":10033.174,"end":10060.899,"text":"也不該有這樣歧視的言論嘛對嗎 您是這樣謝謝指教是那所以呢我想針對部長來您正在推動一個地方民帶任意性別的保障名額改為三分之一嘛最近我們在推動這樣內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額所以這我想這也攸關於整個政府的一個性平形象啦所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分我們大家努力來去捍衛那也希望不要再有這種歧視的言論"},{"start":10062.179,"end":10082.606,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇甄委員 下一位我們請張綺凱委員質詢好 可以 我覺得沒有問題我講一下 好 那請安排一下張委員好"},{"start":10096.932,"end":10107.296,"text":"時間先暫停,還沒開始第一個時間暫停一下我宣告一下,因為我們統計處處長行動比較不方便一點我們就允許他坐著用麥克風來回答好不好跟委員會報告一下"},{"start":10129.883,"end":10152.359,"text":"今天27萬替代役的備役人員接到你們一顆震撼彈你們修了替代役、備役擴大的造級我看把連線、次數、日數全部都放寬了最重要是後面這個不限退役8年內"},{"start":10153.673,"end":10180.314,"text":"這個拿掉了 還刪掉全年60天的這個限制這樣就變成一個空白授權了啊現在你這位內政部長的前線啊你總統還大 這大概是差不多跟皇帝一樣大了報告張委員 這個是行政院在111年的時候通過的行政院在111年通過內政部只是按照行政院的會議通過做一下我們的實施辦法的修正"},{"start":10181.775,"end":10193.405,"text":"行政院在111年也就是三年前通過的我們只是按照這個預防執法在做我們的公告而已部長 你現在將心比心 你想現在談的是27億的 倍億的"},{"start":10196.943,"end":10205.732,"text":"替代役喔 如果家裡面有四個人 這個就是牽扯到一百萬人喔柏定來來 辛苦辛苦你現在 柏定你看這個修正本來是退役八年內嘛 對不對這個你明確把他拿掉了嘛 對不對"},{"start":10214.281,"end":10228.905,"text":"所以是全部退役的隨時可能會被找跌這是第一對不對 這個明確嗎沒有啊 它是36歲以前36歲以前36嘛喔 那這個對 好 OK那你把8年這個拿掉這是第一個嘛 對不對沒有 就是36歲以前原來就是這樣規定的"},{"start":10233.722,"end":10255.411,"text":"本來限定是退役八年內嘛新的規定才說是八年內原來是沒有這個八年內的限制原來的話就是說三十六歲以內的話都可以召集那現在是以退役之後八年內所以是剛好相反事實上是緊縮的那刪掉前年六十天這個限制是有的"},{"start":10256.313,"end":10280.21,"text":"不是 是它原來的規定是30天必要時候得增加然後變成60天那現在的話是30天但是那個只能夠到60天的這個次數的話是上限是沒有是按照實際的狀況而且最重要的是它是指在勤務召集我們的備役有兩種召集一種是演訓召集"},{"start":10283.812,"end":10298.548,"text":"像是國防部的什麼點閱召集、教育召集這種召集那這個是勤務召集勤務召集是碰到了事變或者是暫時是有的關鍵就是現在是本來是60天是一個限制嘛對不對現在是刪掉"},{"start":10299.429,"end":10321.718,"text":"比60天多嗎原來是30天必要時到60天那現在是30天但是按照而且只限於勤務召集也就是說隨時必要的時候可以再增加嘛對不對那是發生事變的時候的勤務召集所以就是把這個界限拿掉了嘛60天已經很多了啊一年才360天你把60天拿掉"},{"start":10324.039,"end":10348.616,"text":"我們的召集分成兩種 一種叫演訓召集五天內 一年一次情務召集的話就是在事變或者是暫時的時候才會實施的你現在就是因為你認定你必要嘛所以我今天執行的重點是什麼你要把那個必要不要有灰色地帶 對不對我剛才一開始就講我們現在你如果是一個替代役你包括他的家人現在就會想啊"},{"start":10349.176,"end":10366.057,"text":"我本來規定清清楚楚的啊那你規定完之後你把連線也放寬了次數也放寬了日數也放寬了特別是我剛剛講你這60天有可能我就有受到影響啦第一我不用問啊一年360才65天你把60天都已經放寬了第二個我平常也要工作啊我有生活啊對不對"},{"start":10367.8,"end":10392.608,"text":"我退役後,你隨時把我找來,你要不要付我薪水?這是不是就是一個影響?是不是這樣?所以我要求,我今天的質詢非常的明確第一個,你的必要,你要把人家找來你這個不要有灰色地帶,把它訂得非常的明確好不好?這是一個那第二個,你不要雙標啊你看一班兵是一年最多幾天?點招最多幾天?"},{"start":10393.786,"end":10408.079,"text":"那是國防部他按照 國防部他有教育召集 點閱召集 訓練召集他有五種召集 我們只有兩種召集所有的召集裡面最多有14天啊 你這邊60 你60還往上走必要的時候還往上走 你能不能把它 應該是減少吧"},{"start":10410.041,"end":10434.814,"text":"可不可以您提到的我要再強調一下這個是在緊急跟非常事變跟暫時的時候才會有這種30天或者是60天的這種平常的話在叫做演訓召集相當於後備軍人的教育召集點約召集等等它是在5天之內而且一年只有一次的時間對啊 給召集得那麼清楚你為什麼這麼模糊"},{"start":10435.314,"end":10456.231,"text":"還把連線把次數、倍次數都要拿掉你要把這些東西維持才對啊這樣才會平等嘛是不是是不是這樣我的要求很明確對不對而且合理吧對讓我們的替代役可以安心好不好你不要隨時他要被你調來生活會受影響工作會受影響好來你先請問我想補聽另外一個問題那部長這幾天你們今天要講租屋啦補聽租屋的這個補貼啊你看一下我們的這個提案"},{"start":10464.403,"end":10491.761,"text":"前陣子怎麼會出現什麼租屋補貼被刪了不過 柏定你有看過嗎這個提案啊 第一行這個提案是為了要討論你國土計畫法 延後六年要你提一個報告案可是刪減案一開始 刪減的時候就講了中間就開始說了 第一行第一行 柏定你念一下第七款第三項的項目怎麼樣你有看過排除這兩支嗎"},{"start":10494.437,"end":10514.591,"text":"所以這筆錢 刪減的根本一開始就已經排除租屋補貼啊怎麼會有人造謠言說什麼租屋補貼受影響凍結什麼時候要解凍我們不知道啊我是不是詳細請我們署長來回應一下這是署長要處理的我剛剛剛才看你第一行 最後一行你看一下三個月內要跟立法院的內政委員會提出專案報告"},{"start":10521.316,"end":10531.586,"text":"立法院跟內政委員會提出專案報告是三個月內但是我們到目前為止在處理的部分是行政院附議的在立法院並沒有通過所以凍結了還是凍結啊凍結了還是繼續凍結啊凍結了還是繼續凍結啊"},{"start":10541.591,"end":10557.807,"text":"這個提案就是要你三個月內來報告啊啊你現在都不爭取這三個月現在三個月內這樣兩個事兩個事第一個清清楚楚提案裡面是排除所以沒有刪減到一毛錢的租屋補貸這件事好那你一定要要來凍結凍結還是一樣三個月來內政委員會做報告"},{"start":10566.636,"end":10584.653,"text":"如果我們沒有按照立法院的程序委員會去排任何解凍案的話那是我們內政部沒有辦法跟我們內政委員會做比較好的溝通但是重點在於立法院立法院的院會有沒有要求針對114年的所有煽動預算開始處理"},{"start":10589.157,"end":10611.469,"text":"解凍或者是處理其他的解除的部分我們都沒有收到這方面的資訊所以按照目前的狀況就是仍然在凍結的狀態那仍然在凍結的狀態對我們內政部影響最大的就是租金補貼的部分租金補貼第一個我剛剛講了已經這個是排除債務一毛錢都沒刪那你一定要硬咬說是凍結你包括凍結的錢算"},{"start":10614.747,"end":10632.272,"text":"除掉之後也足夠你負一年了這個沒有問題那你現在更重要的你應該主動去爭取啊你為什麼要等你剛剛的意思是什麼還沒開始這兩天的提案這個就是立法院的決議文這是委員會過了以後到了議員會又過了要你三個月內提一個報告出來啊"},{"start":10633.254,"end":10657.273,"text":"那你為什麼不提?你沒提你這甩鍋叫那請問一下所謂的三個月內是從日曆年的三個月還是立法院通過114年的行政院的預算的三個月如果是這樣的話上個禮拜行政院在總統簽署的部分的話就是公告114年行政院的預算對不對"},{"start":10657.913,"end":10672.977,"text":"那我們是按照這樣的程序所以我還是一再非常的清楚我們邏輯上 法律上 行政規範上我們全部按照立法院在解除或是在處理預算的程序上來走這是我們完全尊重的否定你已經在那裡久了在法律院那你這位高雄企業副市長"},{"start":10675.663,"end":10694.876,"text":"跟這位行政院的秘書長你當然知道以前的網歷就是所謂三個月就是從年度就開始算啊因為以前的網路也沒有鋪一這件事也沒有到總統最後公告這回事那你盡快提出來啊那現在凍結的錢也足夠你去付這個房屋津貼趕快做啦好不好現在人民是要你們解決問題第一個"},{"start":10696.437,"end":10722.384,"text":"不要造謠,因為這裡面清楚的解釋,它已經被排除,這是第一個,被排除所以立法院沒有刪,出補貼證的一毛錢老實講,凍結的錢你把它算進去,你還是足夠今年一整年都可以用的好,第三個,第三個,你如果要趕快,你要趕快提出來一個解凍案,很快就可以通過保定,我問你一下,解凍案你以前當那麼久的立委有沒有,你舉一個例子給我聽,有沒有哪一個凍結案到後來沒有過的,有沒有"},{"start":10723.946,"end":10747.128,"text":"有一個嗎有啊哪一個我可以匯後提供給你參考還相當多一個給我就好了除了我印象中除了賴清德當幹事長那一年公司的預算被凍結他到隔年解凍沒有啦立法委為什麼要你要凍結要嘛就把你砍掉來凍結凍結就希望你提出把解決方案嘛像這個凍結案本來要做什麼事情你有看這些提案嗎"},{"start":10748.476,"end":10764.376,"text":"因為你的國土計劃法那時候沒有好好去溝通叫你溝通完提案出來如果委員你只要刪掉300萬的國土計劃法我沒意見但是你們民眾黨黨團所提的捅山跟捅洞就動到我們的租金補貼的200億"},{"start":10767.041,"end":10792.352,"text":"國土計畫你們也提了延期了所以事實上呢我們當然可以在這個地方跟委員好好來做報告這是我們的全責但是呢也請委員了解一下統棟跟統山是在立法院的表決通過的它的法定的這個效率比我們在內政委員會通過的任何解棟跟這個刪除的部分還要來得強謝謝委員的指教裡面怎麼會有你房屋這個房屋金補貼呢你房屋補貼的錢清清楚楚列在這裡啊"},{"start":10793.612,"end":10815.62,"text":"你什麼嗲嗲倒菜的好啦 最重要的啦第一個不只不要造謠 趕快提出解凍案 趕快通稿好 謝謝 文字都會說話 提案白紙黑字清清楚楚好 謝謝張其凱委員 本期在這邊做一下說明這幾個事情我們還是還原一下啦第一個這個解凍案不是立法院要求啦 這個應該是行政機關要提啦"},{"start":10816.32,"end":10836.891,"text":"你提了之後送到院會院會附委之後到委員會來做處理啦這第一個那第二個時間序的部分因為這一次特別嘛提了復一案嘛那復一案完之後其實真正能夠開始進行解凍程序其實從今天開始啦因為你總統公布完嘛但是問題是這樣嘛就其實如果早公布不去走復一程序其實搞不好現在我們已經討論解凍了啦"},{"start":10837.751,"end":10862.805,"text":"對不對好沒關係事情發生了就發生了好不好既然大家都為了國家的發展然後補裡面應該有很多的委屈但就盡快把它提出來盡快提出來我們就盡快來排就希望補裡面趕快來做溝通其實就是這樣子而已好不好我們就不要再針對這個事情吵架那很清楚不管是提案都規定三個月之內要處理嘛我剛剛也講就是說不管怎麼樣這會期一定要把它處理掉那既然處理掉就不會出現所謂11月以後租金補貼斷吹問題不會嘛"},{"start":10864.326,"end":10872.196,"text":"因為原則上大家都同意 我目前還沒有聽到大家會反對解凍的就請這個國土組積極來做溝通 其實這樣就好了 好不好好 謝謝 休息五分鐘"},{"start":10887.196,"end":10888.458,"text":"他都不知道自己黨團有體研期"},{"start":11222.076,"end":11242.978,"text":"好 謝謝各位同仁 我們繼續開會下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢好 沒關係 喝一口喝一口茶 沒問題的您一向非常準時的 所以沒問題我到經濟委員會質詢的時候 您當招委我也很準時好 請邱志偉委員 謝謝"},{"start":11249.594,"end":11255.958,"text":"先主席有請這個內政部劉部長劉部長有請還有國土管理署吳署長吳署長有請部長好部長在您的報告裡面幾個問題請教如果要租屋市場透明化未來的經濟方向最主要還是要持續推動包租代管跟租金補貼嗎好這是重點那來問題來囉如果這個在野黨動三預算"},{"start":11279.315,"end":11287.727,"text":"那租金補貼能夠如期上路或者如期達成這個目標嗎這些包租代管的部分這個錢還夠不夠"},{"start":11290.509,"end":11314.589,"text":"報告委員我們在很多次的會議裡面都有提到了就是第一個我們當然是尊重現在最新的114年度的年度預算那這個年度預算剛公布所以呢我們還是希望說在山跟洞的部分呢山2.7億洞是11.47億是的沒錯那這租金補貼什麼時候會用完呢如果沒有解洞"},{"start":11315.823,"end":11341.788,"text":"我們按照目前就是來申請租金補貼的部分我們是希望說可以按照目前的狀態不要給它打折扣的話最快大概11月就會用盡就是說你沒有凍結沒有解凍的話11月份就沒有了對那如果它是不解凍那租金補貼就會受到影響受害者就是廣大的租屋群眾是的那另外財化法之後"},{"start":11345.714,"end":11362.282,"text":"你要中央釋出很多資源給這個地方那未來包租代管的部分要由地方政府去執行嗎是這樣子我們在111年以前就是有關社會住宅的興建那大部分都是分成中央跟地方有一定比例的分配"},{"start":11362.762,"end":11386.859,"text":"那後來因為中央會覺得說為了社宅跟居住正義很多這個經費都是由中央全額來支付那現在如果財化法按照原來要推動的時候我們就會下放也就是說幾乎大概是25%或28%的這個經費要由地方政府來支付目前是這樣而且很多地方大概已經不再繼續蓋所以你這個包租代管"},{"start":11387.452,"end":11407.67,"text":"因為中央蓋的多所以包租貸管的費用還是要中央處理會比較多對不對理論上會這樣子那你如果包租貸管的經費你如果被因為財政受傷的話你下放地方的時候你怎麼樣針對你中央蓋的這個這個社會住宅來處理這些包租貸管可能相對要減少我請署長來跟進來署長"},{"start":11409.031,"end":11432.673,"text":"好 我大概分幾個層次啦第一個大概就是租金補貼可能就回歸到110年以前就是中央跟地方各自負擔一定的戶數一定比例的戶數那你要讓所有的廣告事主知道問題出在哪裡然後第二個大概包括帶管的這一個服務費或相關的這個費用的一個分攤啦這個可能也會找地方政府就一起來協助做分攤那第三個就是說"},{"start":11435.215,"end":11458.493,"text":"興建社宅的部分因為其實中央現在蓋的社宅的數量已經超過地方而且比例不斷的在拉高那如果才要把通過以後大概我們會希望地方政府尤其是新開發區新開發區就以後大概統一由地方政府來負擔然後分的包租貸款的費用又多中央蓋的社宅多那包租貸款的經費又全部下放地方"},{"start":11459.96,"end":11483.103,"text":"這變成說一個好的政策經過扭曲之後一個服務國立民的政策經過扭曲之後不當煽動之後有可能變成禍國殃民受到傷害是全國租屋族的老百姓這些租屋族相對都是在經濟上相對是比較弱勢所以需要租金補貼嘛"},{"start":11484.744,"end":11506.357,"text":"那是不是雪上加霜呢雪上加霜結果就是禍國殃民嘛我很遺憾我們到時候就是要求地方政府也要負起一些責任所以到時候費用的分攤就是雙方還要再重新談那大概我們至少會按照比例去減少的部分我們就會要求地方政府來自行負擔"},{"start":11507.125,"end":11523.662,"text":"那另外前瞻建設的預算沒有過地方政府這些要怎麼應應地方政府有沒有錢那些有沒有相關的配套方案目前前瞻如果沒有審查的話其實大概道路的部分大概是衝擊最大他就讓你沒有辦法去做事情嘛"},{"start":11524.362,"end":11548.599,"text":"包含去年核定現在在再建工程當中的很可能就會停止路不會自己開天上不會掉下一條路一定要中央地方協力合作中央要補貼大部分預算對不對你現在前段沒有過路開不了啦影響是誰影響是所有的國人同胞另外因為我時間關係北高雄地方建設發展有三條道路我已經看了五六次"},{"start":11549.5,"end":11573.661,"text":"包括湖內區東方路 連接正義社區 包括岡山區高29菜寮路包括紫關區中正路 連接遠港路打工工程這三項我想這個署長你也很清楚 我希望部長能夠支持部長 了解我想部長能夠支持我當然支持啊 但是要有經費啊這個經費有啦 我不曉得有沒有啦這個我了解目前經費 這個還可以質疑一點"},{"start":11576.27,"end":11595.755,"text":"這個部分我想我們來跟市府商量因為這生活圈的部分大概都是要靠滾動檢討那所以像這裡面還有一個是八到九米那大概就要符合這一個打通瓶頸的這個路段市政府是把他排序的前幾名所以這就代表他優先性跟急迫性跟必要性還請署長跟部長解釋"},{"start":11597.535,"end":11625.359,"text":"另外144號道路也拜託這個進度能不能加快144號是協定區啊另外的重要交通道要到那因為十幾年都沒有辦法打通所以這部分是不是私立的評點也能夠儘速儘速來進行這個我們會請公園署這邊來加速 儘快來開闢部長您能不能現在的瓶頸就是我們公園署在3月27號召開委員會那我會請這個公園署按照我們地方上的需求呢儘快讓他完成這樣子的會議"},{"start":11626.506,"end":11645.752,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝署長好 謝謝邱志偉委員下一位我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 邀請部長有部長有請楊委員好 部長好等一下電腦還沒出來沒有出來"},{"start":11653.682,"end":11667.766,"text":"我們來討論租賃市場透明化的議題台灣房屋高價許多人都要依靠租賃的方式來生活租賃市場都以個人出租的形態為主"},{"start":11668.906,"end":11688.201,"text":"而房東隱匿收入或者是租屋事實等,也就是租屋的黑市這個現象一直存在哪怕不僅影響到補貼資源的一個效果也對政府在掌控整個資訊以及政策管理會有嚴重的影響"},{"start":11689.322,"end":11704.282,"text":"租屋民眾的權益就會深深受害所以本席在這邊請教部長去年有民團及我們立委提出不只是包租也要納入貸款將補貼等政府已經掌控的租屋的資訊都納入"},{"start":11706.365,"end":11724.882,"text":"租屋實價登錄那請教部長您對於這個論點的看法謝謝委員的關心在去年開始我們內政部已經有先後兩次公布所謂的這個行政區裡面的這個租金的部分那這個其實已經有含掛了我們現在租屋市場規模的六成"},{"start":11725.763,"end":11740.55,"text":"那其他的事成呢其實他有些困擾是因為民法上面的這個個資的部分或者是說因為有短期租約的影響所以呢對於租金是不是有如實來登錄所謂的實價登錄是如實來登錄是房東也好或是租客也好都會有這個困難所以我們在公權力行政上面的不容易去處理這一塊那但是我們還會有其他的經濟措施譬如說我們還是一樣每一年會公佈兩次"},{"start":11754.376,"end":11780.718,"text":"這樣子只要是公權力可以處理的包括社宅或是包括租金補貼的部分慢慢都會把這個往這方面精進那同時我們對於這個包租代管業者啊如果他能夠掌握到這方面資訊的話希望他能夠回饋讓我們在做統計上面最好的分工那如果我們所有的這樣子的一個租金補貼可以對外公佈的話那表示在那一區那個生活圈有那個道路上面會有定毛的效果"},{"start":11781.358,"end":11793.77,"text":"讓很多想要成豬的尤其是弱勢的經濟的這個租客族群呢可以知道說其實我要的房型差不多就是這樣子的一個租金價格然後不會上當跟受騙這是我們現在主要的方向這個也就是特別我們要勉勵啊這個精進的方案繼續加油"},{"start":11799.335,"end":11814.628,"text":"因為我們一定要讓我們這些青年孩子也好或者是比較弱勢的朋友他都能夠得到一個居住正義的安全性這是非常重要 繼續加油接下來本席跟你討論租屋囤房討漏稅的問題我們知道財政部查核"},{"start":11819.972,"end":11837.62,"text":"五戶以上囤房的包租工有超過五成是逃落稅租屋市場經濟地下化還是很嚴重所以因此針對於租屋主的權益居住正義嚴重的來受損所以本席要請教部長我們除了尋覓機制鼓勵合法房東來申報財政部"},{"start":11846.104,"end":11861.786,"text":"擴大的來稽查之外那我們還有什麼精進的方案配套呢能夠減少這樣類似的問題那同時是否你支持修法來有一個有所本的一個方案呢請教"},{"start":11862.688,"end":11880.464,"text":"我是不是先請財政部的同仁來回答一下您的部分他們是查緝的部分跟委員報告針對房東的部分我們鼓勵房東參與這個社會住宅或是公益出租人來享受我們的租稅結面然後對於這個陰森報然後有逃漏稅的房東我們會加強查緝那財政部近幾年都有加強查緝這個個人房東的部分"},{"start":11886.849,"end":11907.283,"text":"好謝謝財政部的回答因為財政部你的角色就是查緝跟鼓勵那請教部長那但是我們現在這麼做目前的樣態是如此那我們要怎麼樣精進因為它還是存在的這個問題請說明我是不是先請我們市長跟您回應一下我再來做政策上面的"},{"start":11908.005,"end":11936.364,"text":"公務員報告一下在這個部分的話其實我們的部分是用鼓勵的方式因為第一個部分包含到社會住宅或是我們租金補貼的愛心房對 這個非常重要社會住宅跟你們補貼的這個項目還有包含到我們一般的包租代管其實我們現行的規定都有相關的一個地價稅所得稅還有房屋稅的優惠那我們鼓勵房東透過這些稅優也參加我們那個公益出租人的行列"},{"start":11936.744,"end":11942.906,"text":"謝謝市長你的說明 部長剛剛財政部跟您的市長所說明目前他們有動作但是還是呈現這樣的問題我們要怎麼樣去精進請教部長謝謝委員的關心我想我們現在目前在處理的部分確實沒有辦法滿足所有的租客他們所要的這個資訊所以我們現在是用鼓勵跟引導的方式鼓勵跟引導的方式如果有任何違反"},{"start":11965.592,"end":11979.211,"text":"其實可以看得出來財政部也好或是內政部也有一定的懲罰措施可是我們要確定的一點就是說目前尤其是這個六都六都裡面這個租屋市場是以房東為主"},{"start":11980.453,"end":11984.374,"text":"如果他認為說我們採取比較大的重罰然後減少這個租屋市場的釋出的話反而會租金會上漲這個他是一個不平衡的狀態那我們為了要穩健的方式的話就盡量讓他能夠朝著能夠告訴我們怎麼租金上面的這個不管是處理的方面盡量透明化那同時我們也要找包"},{"start":12004.319,"end":12018.649,"text":"您所謂的透明化這個就是重點我們要怎麼樣去協助這一些的租屋者我相信這也是你的職責那精進的方案你再去精進最後一個議題我們來討論本席非常非常的強調看到有這個數字出來"},{"start":12024.853,"end":12047.327,"text":"台灣已成為過勞之島 七天假何時要還給勞工部長 台灣在2023年的時候我們的年總工時已經達到2000年20小時成為全球主要國家中的第五高也是在亞洲國家中的第二高 僅次於新加坡那近三年我們的工時也不斷地在增加台灣已經成為過勞之島"},{"start":12049.988,"end":12069.936,"text":"減少工時的有效方法就是把過去砍的七天假還給勞工那這一次本席也有提案所以部長您上週有回答說反對修法你的理由是說稱社會尚無共識不宜倉促立法那現在您的立場呢"},{"start":12071.257,"end":12088.296,"text":"報告委員我想這樣子太籠統了第一個就是說內政部現在只有一個紀念日跟節日的一個實施辦法它不是一個法律案那你要變成一個法律案的話我知道我們現在委員大概有27種提案但是要放假的日數是高達31天"},{"start":12090.278,"end":12104.228,"text":"那所以變成是沒有共識不是社會沒有共識那我們也都知道說現在有一些勞動的朋友會覺得說他現在的工時過長但是工時過長的解決放在假日的處理辦法是不是一個好的辦法"},{"start":12105.089,"end":12126.543,"text":"因為我上次有提過你把它放在紀念日跟假日的時事辦變成把它提高變成法律未接的時候譬如說我們去年是一百一十五天明年是一百一十六天的放假日但是後年如果變成一百一十七天那你法律案要不要跟著修正就是說我勞動節放假或者是說我教師節放假或者是我這個客家的這個天川日放假或者是原住民的歲時紀一放假把它固定化下來的話那下一次"},{"start":12136.13,"end":12155.006,"text":"如果你放假天數會增加或減少的時候你的法律就要跟著再修正那修正送到立法院裡面是一個比較冗長的程序因為立法委員除了委員會還有院會要表達所以我的意思就是說我們不要把放假日與否要增加與否放到我們的假日跟紀念日這兩個"},{"start":12157.328,"end":12164.154,"text":"這個名詞裡面去處理就是說我到底全部總工時要多少回歸到跟勞動基準法相關那邊來討論我們不會反對而且是尊重勞動部的意見還好你最後說了我們不會反對因為勞動部長洪森漢他認為有討論的空間行政總處的人事長呢"},{"start":12180.608,"end":12198.036,"text":"蘇俊隆先生也說他不反對勞動節變全國的放假日他不反對那我要請教喔你也擔任過立法委員你剛才講的也非常的清楚喔所以為什麼內閣的態度部委首長是不一致我要把這個功課給你"},{"start":12199.477,"end":12214.908,"text":"我也希望我們這個惡民能夠好好的去改善這非常的重要我們也讓社會大眾來公允那我們也希望在立法院可以討論出一個方向也希望得到你的支持讓我們這一切的修法能夠通過讓我們台灣是全世界第五個過勞的國家我們把這個惡民抹殺掉 謝謝"},{"start":12225.174,"end":12236.535,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊英委員的諮詢下一位我們請鄭天才委員諮詢鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在下一位我們請鄭振淺委員諮詢鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員不在下一位我們請徐信委員諮詢"},{"start":12246.067,"end":12272.812,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請劉部長先劉部長有請好 部長我們今天是要談租賃市場透明化的現況與展望所以我們相信今天的議題可以說是不單純是租屋市場的管理它是一場關於青年生存的"},{"start":12274.192,"end":12293.503,"text":"這個生存空間的危機也是政府制度誠信的壓力更是社會公平正義的最後一道防線那既然我們要談的是這個透明化所以本席想請教你目前全國租用戶數你們估計大約是多少"},{"start":12295.416,"end":12307.304,"text":"報告委員現在我們是用推估的我們用這個行政院的主計總署還有教育部的部分推估大概潛在的租屋市場規模大概是110.5萬戶對這個是109年的數據"},{"start":12312.848,"end":12336.069,"text":"因為他那個10年才報導一次所以我們政府治理要不要改進但是教育部是111學年度好 111 教育部111 對所以這一塊就是本席在今天這個議題要特別提出來就是說我們的政府治理要不要與時俱進109年那時候定說好我們每10年一次"},{"start":12336.803,"end":12349.671,"text":"可是這個整個的科技還有各方面的這個社會的需求跟進步您認為還是十年一次嗎這個我們當然是要尊重主計總署主計總署"},{"start":12353.888,"end":12370.578,"text":"我地政司這邊報告一下我們現在剛剛委員引用到了就是行政院主計總署每10年會做一次人口及住宅的一個普查那因為10年的期間有點過長所以在中間的5年我們國土署也會去做相關的一個住宅的一個調查你們怎麼調查"},{"start":12373.355,"end":12395.288,"text":"好 國土署請你們是怎麼調查的報告因為我們大概都會引用這個因為他那個主席總書大致上會有一個慣性他大概會有一萬多戶的這個部分那我們大致上也會去參照他那個戶數的一個範圍去做類似因為這樣大家的數據比較不會失真對所以我們希望政府啊"},{"start":12395.948,"end":12420.755,"text":"我們中央這邊要來整合 主計總署也有教育部也有 國土署也有所以我不知道部長這是不是應該內政部總要有一個整合單位我們好像每一次質詢現在民眾關心的問題都不是單一部會的問題那內政部還是哪一個單位應該要整合那你怎麼樣拿到真正的這個就至少我們推估的要比較確切嘛"},{"start":12422.535,"end":12429.42,"text":"那也就是說你敢不敢面對我們這制度上的黑數和這個破洞"},{"start":12430.307,"end":12452.483,"text":"那所以現在你說大概預計110萬戶嘛現在剛剛部長說但我們看媒體報導民間估計有200萬戶所以這個公說公有理婆說婆有理那再加上我們的數據又是過時的所以這一塊本席在這裡因為時間也不多這個議題我們希望你們是不是可以"},{"start":12453.363,"end":12481.136,"text":"在會後有一些研擬你們去評估嘛應該多久能夠要做一個了解那是不是再回覆給我這樣可以嗎你們要掌握嘛掌握整個租屋市場的情況好不好因為到現在都沒有辦法知道因為民間的租賃大概長租短租那有的商辦租那有的是廠辦租其實大概我們是很難去"},{"start":12482.777,"end":12500.873,"text":"因為有的重尤其是短租型的你要回覆我那你那個長租短租那本來一個數據出來它不可能是精準的嘛它的估計一定包含都有這些嘛好不好好那再來就是說今天當然很多委員一定都會談我們既然要透明化有很多資訊的"},{"start":12502.014,"end":12520.492,"text":"揭露各方面民眾所關心的不只是租金 其實有一項 本席想請教很多民眾反應就是說那個凶宅資訊的揭露 民眾很在意你們這一塊 我有看到內政部 韓市好像說就是以這個"},{"start":12522.844,"end":12548.982,"text":"你們定義是屋內非自然死亡那但是呢發生在房屋的專有部分還有在賣方持有房屋產權期間發生那但是就是說今天他如果他是這一棟大樓或某一戶的這個租戶他到樓上跳樓下來這個是不在不在揭露的裡面"},{"start":12550.339,"end":12579.739,"text":"因為民眾蠻在意的很多年輕人說我看到價格低我就去租了結果後來想一想我了解一下這附近是不是情況如何結果發現原來他租的那一棟就是凶宅所以這個是一個然後再來就是你們說賣方持有房屋產權期間發生所以只要一轉手這個是前一個持有者的時候發生的所以後一個持有者他就不用揭露了"},{"start":12580.718,"end":12609.25,"text":"這一塊這種透明化的部分有關凶宅這一塊是不是也可以因為民眾都很在意嘛這一塊可不可以向委員報告一下因為有關於凶宅就非自然死亡的部分現在在我們的一個其實城屋在買賣的說明書必須揭露這個部分那我現在說的是租屋租屋沒有租屋沒有那你覺得需不需要那這個部分你們覺得需不需要"},{"start":12610.851,"end":12631.056,"text":"所以你們目前沒有 都沒有 只有買賣的時候不過那個一般仲介的部分的話在做一個居間的一個媒介的時候有關於這個相關的訊息的部分他們一般也會去做一個產調的部分去告訴民眾但是因為政府 就沒有強制那他就不會受重視 就絕對沒有"},{"start":12633.137,"end":12658.88,"text":"我更新一下租屋的部分也要強制也要去揭露這個訊息所以我才跟你探討說你強制了可是你的規定好像也不盡然完善我剛剛特別舉例他住五樓可是他到頂樓假設頂樓跳下去或在頂樓怎麼了其實是不會揭露的你租屋的規範是不是跟房屋買賣一樣"},{"start":12659.961,"end":12680.46,"text":"現在規定是一樣因為都必須要揭露所以我們這不管租屋或買賣這一塊有沒有可能研擬也麻煩會後給我這個回覆好不好就是這一塊你們研擬一下嘛因為民眾很關心我們才會接到大家的反應好那再來就是我請教部長那個我們現在好像這個"},{"start":12685.526,"end":12711.306,"text":"整個AI時代來臨像我們的這個既然要透明化而且這個也是數據有沒有在考已經有沒有在規劃未來AI時代來臨是不是有導入AI那來提高讓民眾能夠提供他好的租屋的資訊那也能夠提高行政效率甚至對我們行政我們統計處有這樣的考量"},{"start":12712.096,"end":12733.117,"text":"有這樣的考量目前的情況如何因為我們列了一個這個五年的內政智慧領航計劃那準備利用AI的技術在比如說對租屋的資料的品質的提升還有他的租屋資料的解釋還有租屋資料的政策的應用的上面"},{"start":12735.219,"end":12751.451,"text":"那這個詳細內容我們大概可以理解那既然有這樣的話AI最重要就是它要很多的數據你沒有足夠的數據所以一樣這個資訊不夠透明你資訊不足你就沒有辦法有給民眾很好的這個資訊的品質嘛"},{"start":12754.393,"end":12778.039,"text":"所以這個部分還是拉到我們很多的資訊你必須要想辦法剛剛我們講的你黑洞數太多了那你還是用在現有的裡面那他還不能反映現有的市場是我們會利用AI的技術然後利用跨領域的資料也就是說譬如說這個計畫什麼時候要實施啊還是在規劃階段已經抱怨了115年到119年"},{"start":12782.08,"end":12805.01,"text":"115到119的這五年那最後租屋補貼這一塊你們有訂這個補貼的一個價格跟它的不同級數那本席要反映的是目前好像就是台北台北它在第一級的它補貼最多"},{"start":12807.29,"end":12836.212,"text":"就是8000、5000、3000其他就是5000、4000、2400那本席在這裡只是提說反映現在市場的情況我想那個署長應該知道竹北的房價好像直逼台北而且很可怕那它的租屋也是它的包括地段各方面所以這個東西你們多久會整個再審核一次或是再評估一次因為我們大概每年都會去檢查它那個所得中位數"},{"start":12838.314,"end":12851.685,"text":"所得中位數你應該到竹北市全國最高的是關鍵那一個數據啦第二個當然就是說因為你的所得中位數的狀態下那大概又會跟那個房屋的持有率這一些大概都會一搭配其實有時候"},{"start":12852.901,"end":12872.16,"text":"或許會有時候就沒有辦法精準到只有那一個區像你現在狀態是竹北區你們是用縣市對不對對因為是用縣市那就被其他鄉鎮縣市因為你只有基本上只有竹北跟竹東是比較高其他大概相對就拉下去了所以那一塊有時候會看不太出來"},{"start":12872.5,"end":12898.161,"text":"因為應該講竹北跟新竹市它的房價不輸給台北是我想您很瞭解所以這一塊還是得看一下因為在竹北市中屋的年輕人非常非常多新竹市也是我們是反映區域的情況好 謝謝好 謝謝徐欣盈委員下一位我們請蔡易宇委員質詢蔡易宇委員蔡易宇委員不在下一位我們請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":12911.684,"end":12937.94,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請官委員好部長好部長我是外委的所以時間比較有限但是我還是要跟部長來關心一下我們這個全國社會住宅新辦的進度我想說每年的過去總之我都有關心但是今年總之我時間不夠就沒有問到所以剛好今天內政部有來我也跟部長請教一下去年2024年113年的2月底的"},{"start":12940.021,"end":12957.384,"text":"達成數中央4672的地方18257基本上這個數字那過了一年之後到今年中央的社宅完工數是4990那地方是28791我想這個數字很明顯可以看到這個中央在新辦社宅的數字上大概只增加了好大約300戶"},{"start":12958.365,"end":12975.371,"text":"那地方政府興建的社宅大概增加了一萬戶當然從整個國家的角度來講不分中央地方大家都是為了民眾在蓋這個社宅希望大家能夠達到居住正義的目標但是我想請教一下部長到底是什麼原因讓這個中央蓋的比例到了進度這麼慢"},{"start":12977.551,"end":12992.756,"text":"因為原來在設宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主中央給財務的補貼但是我們從108年大概就觀察到一個地方興建的速度已經放緩了就開工發包的數量已經放緩了而且放緩的速度很快"},{"start":12993.496,"end":13017.669,"text":"所以中央才決定自己進場來興建所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包那所以如果照正常我們一般大樓大概是4年左右的一個規劃興建4到5年的規劃興建的話那中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的一個完工的數據今年大概會有5700戶左右明年大概還會再增加"},{"start":13018.329,"end":13034.895,"text":"大概一萬一千戶所以大概中央會從今年開始大概會每年連續性的這個數量會比較大幅的成長好署長謝謝因為這個按照過去內政部在第一階段新辦這個涉宰的投入的狀況來講當時啦一戶的成本大約是在486萬我們概算500萬好了是"},{"start":13038.336,"end":13051.338,"text":"那現在中央加地方大概完成大概9萬戶左右所以我們整個國家目前大概投入大概4千多億在蓋所謂的社宅這是目前的狀況那我要請教部長或請教署長的問題是說那我們終究"},{"start":13053.459,"end":13073.397,"text":"目標數到底要蓋多少社宅因為我想包含總統在承諾說要百萬社宅等等但現在很多事又說要報住債管跟租金補貼那我們先不討論這些事情我們就社宅本身來討論的話內政部有沒有到底有設定目標到底我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準有沒有算過嗎根本報告啦因為我們應該用這個方式比較就是說"},{"start":13077.18,"end":13100.691,"text":"我們為什麼會淨出這個25萬戶的一個比例那25萬戶其實延長來講它的比重大概最高也只到2.5%那2.5%這樣在這個全世界的社宅的存量裡面我們只能算是比較中低標的一個標準但是我想25萬戶就可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能"},{"start":13101.351,"end":13116.008,"text":"就必須要努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標當然未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高蘇財我們討論一個數字我們看數字這個下一號到底台灣需要多少社宅剛剛蘇財你講25萬或25萬或是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧"},{"start":13118.21,"end":13129.722,"text":"不是是25萬戶是大概以我們所謂的這個2.5%就是說我們未來如果估計因為現在的小戶化越來越高啦那所以我們估計大概最高台灣可能會到1000萬戶的這個家戶那以1000萬戶的話25萬戶就是一個2.5的一個標準"},{"start":13135.908,"end":13157.455,"text":"那所以是用這樣的概念去算 無打無撞反正雙方的計算標準不一樣結果出來的數字差不多啦就是說你用這個一千萬戶的標準來算是二十五萬戶那如果我是用這個住宅法第四條規範的這個群體算出來的人口數跟戶數算出來也差不多二十五萬戶那我意思是說因為我們社宅它本身條件上它優先要保障的"},{"start":13158.095,"end":13183.313,"text":"當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然是在我的理論裡面所以我才說反推回來如果按照所謂的四成提供給弱勢團體六成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛"},{"start":13184.594,"end":13211.705,"text":"所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的所以我不太可能就是說我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去我想"},{"start":13212.265,"end":13227.021,"text":"這就是為什麼要包租貸款跟租金補貼其實包租貸款跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高其實也是來自於雙方互相搭配來協助他們我想日後續才會隨著每一階段我們提供的社宅的量"},{"start":13227.862,"end":13240.476,"text":"逐漸逐漸把它填補起來這是我們一定還是要努力的目標好 蘇長謝謝你因為我現在這樣後面有問題我都算是有解答因為是很想知道說到底今年400億的這個住宅基金裡面有300億只有100億拿去蓋那300億去做所謂的"},{"start":13243.679,"end":13271.815,"text":"租金補貼我覺得這個感覺起來比例有點失衡但如果說你們的這個政策立場是希望說這300億租金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢這樣的說法我想這個本席是能夠接受但是我們期待說如果要還是回到這數字如果今天還要達到這個60萬戶當然這60萬戶當然是要平均分配在很多的可能這個人口密集區也好或者是說交通便利的捷運或這個鐵路的地區也好"},{"start":13272.375,"end":13289.205,"text":"如果能够达到60万户我想对于现在这个房价和对真正的居住真正的达成好因为我时间到了我最后再讲一句因为这个两一个月前的我刚好去新加坡那大家都知道新加坡的主政策做得非常非常的好他们多数的国民他的房价很高私有住宅房价很高"},{"start":13289.725,"end":13301.409,"text":"但是多數的國民他是受到保障就是說我多數國民我買得起或是我住得起一般的房子很多追求老宅他們土地國有化的制度對啊我想這個要討論一下就是說我要跟組長或跟部長來請教就是說當然後續可能再討論時間到了就是說我們有這麼多其實我們還是有非常多的"},{"start":13309.111,"end":13334.27,"text":"國有土地或國營事業的國有土地其實是應該是能夠釋出來做相關的工作我們當然期待說我還是以希望以60萬為目標啦我們希望能夠達成這件事情就是土地如果按照目前來講的話其實不管是財政部也好或是各國營事業也好其實有非常多的土地是在精華區我講個我就舉個例子就好我上兩週前一個月前我大概有在樓下經濟委會質詢過一件事情就是"},{"start":13335.191,"end":13356.598,"text":"我台中市區捷運站旁邊中青文興路口的邊邊精華地帶的住山住宅區居然要拿去蓋光電板我說這就非常浪費啊這個是很荒謬的事情如果這件事情能夠提供電視部能夠來爭取來提供做社會住宅我想這對區分配或對居住這一點來講就是比較正向的努力也謝謝委員啦這麼漂亮的這麼好的地點"},{"start":13358.098,"end":13385.467,"text":"你去蓋光電板要蓋其實我們也是希望地方政府也要努力跟進啦畢竟現在是中央衝的比較快那我們希望地方政府尤其未來有勢力重劃去亂徵收區的這個土地要優先釋出來未來的公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口解決地方民眾租屋的需求啦都要一起努力好 謝謝署長 謝謝部長好 謝謝黃建豪委員下一位我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":13393.93,"end":13402.655,"text":"徐主席我請你劉部長劉部長有請還有副會員還有副稅署副稅署李立新副署長有請"},{"start":13406.394,"end":13433.22,"text":"好兩位好我想部長今天大家都非常關心所謂的住宅政策尤其是租屋租屋市場裡面有很嚴重的問題就是我們現在的房客他有三大痛苦第一個痛苦是沒辦法入戶口第二個是沒有辦法申請租金補貼雖然法律上可以保障他不用經過房東同意第三個痛苦就是他沒有辦法去申報所謂的"},{"start":13435.066,"end":13461.731,"text":"列舉扣除了部長今天是很多的自由住宅房屋稅2.0必須要房東要設戶籍的最後一天接下去有非常非常多的房東因為他可能要有特殊的希望稅負可以減少所以他會把戶口簽到可能空出來但是實際上租給人家的這些房屋裡面內政部有沒有什麼對策"},{"start":13465.897,"end":13488.168,"text":"像委員報告我們剛剛提到的第一個部分不能報戶口第二個不能申請租金補貼的部分那我們現在在租賃定型化契約裡面都規定所以房客各位啊房客就是因為礙於不想搬家不想被趕走他也不會去檢舉所以你這個方法有跟沒有一樣"},{"start":13489.318,"end":13508.741,"text":"所以部長我想兩件事啦第一件事情簽戶口這件事情大概目前也沒什麼解足信補貼我們已經不需要相關的房東同意了第三個就是扣除了的列舉這個部分從相關的規範裡面看得出來有兩成的人不知道有五成的人不敢報"},{"start":13510.39,"end":13538.25,"text":"其實你有這麼多的規定他為什麼還是不敢報因為他不想得罪他的房東就這麼簡單所以部長你認為我們給了這麼多為什麼還是會有黑市為什麼這個黑市沒有辦法往前走其實我們給了他很多的稅服優惠其實我們給了他租金補貼甚至他可以去把他的地價稅房屋稅甚至他的中所稅成為公益出租人都可以優惠你認為他們為什麼還是不願意來當公益出租人"},{"start":13543.349,"end":13558.256,"text":"向委員報告一下有關於戶籍的部分的話我要問你說他為什麼還是不願意來當公益出租人嗎應該還是我們知道大概普遍房東還是care稅的問題為什麼因為稅嘛講對了好部長還有建復稅署在現場我們給他的房屋稅優惠地價稅優惠中鎖稅的優惠都不足以讓他有誘因來成為公益出租人原因是什麼"},{"start":13567.771,"end":13585.328,"text":"是因為他在將來交易房屋的時候的那個稅額才是真正他所care的第一個叫做房地合一稅房地合一稅他必須要在交易前六年沒有出租的行為另外一個是土地增值稅一生一次的自用住宅優惠他要在出售一年前沒有出租"},{"start":13586.189,"end":13601.032,"text":"包括公益出租第三還有一生一物的出售前五年沒有提供營業使用或出租這兩個稅制是把所有的房東卡在那邊他不願意來成為公益出租人不願意讓他的房客去申請租金補貼最大的問題負稅署是吧因為我曾經出租過所以我交易的時候就喪失了所謂交易稅的優惠這才是大錢"},{"start":13613.069,"end":13636.218,"text":"今天內政部如果真的要處理租屋黑市要處理租屋黑市的就是找財政部好好討論一下今天我們真的做了公益出租人我們在他交易的時候他也有一定的優惠現在為止沒有耶他到了公益出租人他沒有任何交易上的好處他為什麼要來當公益出租人部長你了解我的意思嗎我了解是 你要不要在麥克風前面講"},{"start":13637.847,"end":13652.415,"text":"但是委員所垂詢的部分所以您社會部長你要跟財政部來好好商量這件事您大致上就是在強調有關於在稅賦上面對於公益出租人並沒有任何好處那我們內政部要跟財政部來多做協調"},{"start":13653.536,"end":13677.444,"text":"讓他知道說當公益出租人他有這樣的好處你要管的是國內的住宅市場但是稅賦沒有辦法達到剛剛講的一些方式就不會有人理你的住宅政策你永遠解決不了租屋黑市部長這才是我的問題如果內政不是住宅法的主管機關租屋黑市是你的任務稅賦他們是政策的工具而已"},{"start":13678.044,"end":13696.792,"text":"目標是我們要讓租屋黑市真正能夠揭開來它讓所有的房東都願意來當中醫出租人今天的問題是有一個數字很有趣租金補貼121年度核定了27萬件他真正跑去申請剛剛講的房屋稅地價稅優惠的人只有11萬"},{"start":13698.032,"end":13725.316,"text":"也就是說租金補貼我們付了27萬戶結果只有11萬戶的人願意告訴政府說我是公益出租人我來減免我的房屋稅跟地價稅有一半以上的人連報都不願意報這才是問題我們的確我們已經不拿來查所得稅了他還是不願意報今天內政部要做的事財政部如果房地合一稅跟土地增值稅沒有處理的話我相信這個屋主會是永遠沒有辦法解決"},{"start":13726.636,"end":13734.984,"text":"部長你們跟財政部是不是要開始至少現在從現在起要對租屋黑市的處理"},{"start":13736.069,"end":13756.91,"text":"往前進一步報告委員其實我們有商量過有協調過這個部分但是財政部的立場跟內政部不太一樣是財政部永遠都不願意減稅所以你們的問題是你們要請院長出來變成你們的政策如果假設一個國家的政策兩個是相互矛盾的你這個政策永遠推不動"},{"start":13758.759,"end":13782.194,"text":"矛盾的政策是永遠推不動的所以部長我希望一個月內告訴我們你們做了哪些努力第二個財政部永遠不願意減稅我相信但是很簡單你如果有公益出租人大家願意來做我相信中華民國是可以朝向朱惠勢可以慢慢的降稅委員不好意思那個一個月可能時間有點短可不可以讓我們多一點的時間來跟財政部這邊來做一個反應和討論那就兩個月"},{"start":13786.779,"end":13813.398,"text":"报告委员那个五月的时候是报税期那你如果现在对如果你现在匆忙说要做任何决定的话可能对财政部也不是那么完全不容易啦就是不管怎样要开始做我们在尽量如果租屋院是这么久了都用这么多方法都没有用你要去追根究底最后的问题终于出租人在在中华民国政府的眼睛中到底是什么好吗"},{"start":13814.333,"end":13839.85,"text":"兩個月給我一個初步的答案我沒有一定要你馬上有答案但是你至少要開始做三個月啦我沒有跟你那個argue這個時間我剛剛提到了就是說因為五月是報稅的這個熱季啊好三個月讓他能夠這兩個稅額必須要有一個檢查稅部馬上在五月六月做一個很大的更動的話對報稅人也是不是很公平你沒有要現在做啊至少開始做好嗎三個月內我希望可以給本席一個完美的答覆好謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":13845.067,"end":13851.082,"text":"好 謝謝黃珊珊委員的諮詢下一個我們請羅明財委員羅明財委員 羅明財委員不在下一個我們請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢"},{"start":13867.232,"end":13876.881,"text":"謝謝主席 在黨委員先進列席的政務機關事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請內政部劉部長 地政司林司長還有國土署的吳署長劉部長 林司長 吳署長有請"},{"start":13879.771,"end":13890.541,"text":"中委員好部長好 署長好 市長好我們比較輕鬆的補充是我們行政院團隊裡面三聲帶朱祁鈴我演繹不來 演繹不來我請教一下 他們那時候我聽到老闆在說手腳跟脖子結這是什麼意思 你知道嗎手腳跟脖子結"},{"start":13898.584,"end":13916.496,"text":"我真的不知道 拜託補議員跟我說首先就是屬於老一輩在日治時代呢都市居民的疏散那暴擊呢就是轟炸的意思啦好 那我想這個是一個比較緩和氣氛來 下一個部長呢在不久前來到我們屏東江華義那時候我們的興建"},{"start":13917.948,"end":13942.779,"text":"部立屏東醫院的醫療大樓原來是地下一層 地上七層後來院長 蘇院長支持改成地下三層 地上十二層部長也特別強調了這一點那是什麼原因 保定 部長第一個當然是要這個造福我們在屏東地區的廣大的這個居民讓他在醫療品質上面可以提升那非常謝謝我們的蘇前院長的幫忙那另外一個就是我們希望能夠結合那個衛福部的一個韌性醫療計畫裡面"},{"start":13946.821,"end":13971.944,"text":"把這個地下三層樓的部分呢變成是一個符合現代功能而且有具有戰備功能的一個災害規劃的院區就是平時是當停車場然後有緊急災難的時候會變成手術跟病房或者是大規模譬如說我們有COVID-19這種大規模的災害變成手術病房然後下面的病床會增加相當多好那現在跟內政部的又有關我們看下一頁就是說什麼時候台灣的建築物開始要設防空避難室"},{"start":13975.439,"end":13995.82,"text":"其實在63年以前這開始其實都有啦那其實就這個部分來講現在也它是一個標示性但是這個部分其實在規劃上都還保持著都還保留嘛所以原來我們看到的公寓大樓底下不是最早不是停車場喔它是叫防空避難部長那當初防空避難的目的是什麼就是如果"},{"start":13998.621,"end":14021.638,"text":"如果有任何需要防空避難的部分當然就是找防空避難設施但是現在有加入就是如果有重大天災也是把它列進去裡面也是疏散撤離也放在這裡面所以都市的防災這些規劃都要有部長請繼續這邊有個新聞美蘇冷戰期間有一個防空避難的設計有人到家裡打開以前家裡的後院挖了一個防空壕在美國加州的西岸有這種東西"},{"start":14023.519,"end":14050.336,"text":"挖這個黃宮都是害怕戰爭那現在呢現在如果想要在家裡後院弄一個這樣的設施你覺得是基於什麼樣的心態這個要警國員指教我不曉得他們是基於什麼心態好我們來看一下我不是在推銷啦現在特斯拉他說一個迷你屋啊只要台幣不到25萬元他有太陽能還有儲能的設施還可以污水處理假設部長如果你剛好住在鄉下有個空間你想不想擺一個在後花園"},{"start":14052.122,"end":14077.061,"text":"因為我剛好就沒有啊 所以這個假設一直不成立啊那25萬你買得起嗎25萬台幣買得起啊 如果是美金買不起好 那我現在告訴你一個情況來往下看其實呢 現在很多的都會上班族呢他們其實在鄉下有買了一塊地那農地農用這沒有問題但是呢 他會怎麼樣 他會當假日農夫他中午假日呢 就去那個地方種種菜啦 看看這個養養這個"},{"start":14079.222,"end":14102.382,"text":"爬藤啊什麼之類的就鄉村田園生活但是他有在做農業生產所以內政部呢根據農業用地農業設施的容許使用審查辦法然後說只要你超過300坪有農用的適時但是如果有農社就不能限制裁市因為這個大部分都當制裁市的名義然後呢農業主人不需要有農民的身份假如啦部長你具備這樣的身份你會不會想要弄一個還是我們署長你想要弄一個"},{"start":14107.779,"end":14131.226,"text":"各位報告其實在鄉下要蓋這一類的其實大部分還不需要用到這個組合其實它通常會用貨櫃屋的形式但是貨櫃屋是不合乎所以其實概念是都一致所以說馬克思推出這個組合屋這種屋子可不可以成為農業生產設設一部分部長請你來我要跟你說一下要拜託你跟農業部長思考一下"},{"start":14131.966,"end":14149.984,"text":"其實部長因為呢其實這樣的一個像那麼先進的像太空艙的東西其實在我們的農村它如果有太陽能的光電板它有儲能設施加上它有簡單的污水排放處理其實呢它在農民的公寮會改善很多"},{"start":14150.644,"end":14166.703,"text":"現在如果你去農村看 蜜蜂餅啦 蟾蜂餅啦 還有羊尿啦放煮食的羊都很簡陋其實我相信如果給農民一個許可他弄得一個漂漂亮亮的 平常農業使用的時候呢 他符合但是最終是什麼時候 部長你看"},{"start":14168.024,"end":14184.577,"text":"在都會的空地或農地他平常是這樣的使用但是遇到了有大型災害發生大地震啊什麼的防災韌性這個地方很快的就會可能成為這些避難小屋的放置堂所部長你覺得可以想像嗎"},{"start":14188.042,"end":14210.317,"text":"委員非常有創意但是我在想像就是說如果在假設有大地震發生這樣的狀況不是用所謂的我們的衛福部所說的這個臨時組合的方式的話會造成說如果這個大地震在災後復原的時候變成一大堆都是屬於違章建築說得很好這個反而是更難處理這就是921留給我們的印象因為過去台灣沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":14212.518,"end":14233.832,"text":"但是你看看馬斯克那個東西,它其實是移動式的而且它是一個量產的,是一個商業化的,平常就可以用組合屋,現在我們看到市面上的組合屋有固定在生產的廠商嗎?大部分都是在做公寮使用但是如果它成為一個家庭裡面,大家好像旅行拖車一樣常常就會構置放在三分地那裡放一下"},{"start":14234.873,"end":14253.75,"text":"那他會覺得呢又有市場就有產線就有產能遇到需要大量擴充的時候可以馬上的生產製造而且不會是減肉的而且到時候符合有儲能可以自給自足還有污水處理然後平常的時候呢因為有平常的用途在必要的時候他就可以發揮這樣的作用而且"},{"start":14256.069,"end":14282.517,"text":"空地要擺放很快要移除也很快這裡面都涉及到什麼法規包括我們的農地的農業設施容許跟以及我們目前地政司我們的國土署你們在做都市空間規劃的時候防災空間的思維你們會看到公園必要的時候我可以放很多這個對不對農地可以放很多這個要疏散大家去那裡疏散那署長那麼署長簡單講你覺得有哪些法規要修改"},{"start":14285.214,"end":14310.456,"text":"根據委員報告啦 其實因為就暫時的話 我想我沒有講暫時啦 重大災害重大災害的時候 其實相關的災防法裡面其實我是覺得可以去討論這件事情第二個就是說 那憑這個配方我說明一下好了 其實我們像很多是屬於像過去災害發生以後 我們大概適用最多就是像類似有一些搶救災的重機具那我們過去的重機具在"},{"start":14311.457,"end":14334.602,"text":"在分區裡面是找不到的重機具的停放場所是找不到的那我們最近跟交通部有在討論修法因為你這些重機具它還是要找到合法的地方可以去施作去放那但是這一類的它是屬於臨時性的生產它不像重機具我平常也要用那所以我的意思剛好相反我要打斷你就是平常就要能用才會有生產"},{"start":14335.362,"end":14361.58,"text":"就要平常可以放才會需要的時候才大量的可以安放如果你沒有災防法不到災防法的啟動條件他不能放就沒有市場我也說明一下好了因為事實上國內不管是做小型的預住業者跟這個貨櫃屋業者其實他們平常就已經有能力在做這件事情了他們我們有看過很多的規格品他們只是在分區上面他如果有適合的現在都違法的啊"},{"start":14362.24,"end":14391.18,"text":"我説明一下其實現在的資材市或小型的農舍其實也有類似用玉柱品去做的那所以其實我的意思是說國內的相關的業者其實他是有這方面的能力的那大概委員所在意的說我們如果因應緊急狀態的時候我們以防災的概念或是災後復原的概念那其實允許他做更多的話那其實或許是在災防法裡面去討論就可以剛好相反我還是不斷的提你你腦筋沒有轉過來如果只有災防的時候可以用他平常不會使用"},{"start":14391.96,"end":14416.245,"text":"像這樣的貨櫃屋它現在都存在灰色地帶內政部不准許 農業部不准許但是如果你們明確的把它的功能面積 大小 重量固定裝置的要求設定進去那麼只要符合這些功能它就可以允許使用那它平常就有市場平常有市場的產品你需要的時候才有可能大量的擴充平常就可能擺放的地方"},{"start":14417.125,"end":14434.369,"text":"需要的時候就能夠大量排放 平常只能放一個需要的時候可以放很多個這個法規的調適 請部長 拜託最後的結論請部長的內政部協同農業部來研議調整法規就空地農地設置容許設施沖弱避難儲存空間之用進行一個研究 可以嗎 部長指示一下可不可以"},{"start":14437.625,"end":14458.342,"text":"我們要跟農業部一起來討論我想不只吧可能國防部也要吧我沒有只上國防部的要求國土署其實目前防災的主政是內政部我知道災有很多種災但是國土署所處理的有關土地的管制規範會碰觸到這個問題裡面的限制很大"},{"start":14459.199,"end":14471.304,"text":"控告國防部的用地嗎沒有通難農地跟工地國土署的土地使用的規範那就是內政部啊沒有應該是這麼說啦我知道委員的意思啦但是應該是這麼說"},{"start":14473.171,"end":14491.495,"text":"因為土地使用管制規則是剛性的它一旦開放了就開放了所以反而要設計一個專案容許或者特案容許或者容許現在制度上是沒有所以你們要有一個容許的概念審查容許的概念好不好你們可以去研議 可不可以答應去研議一下只是研議啊好 我找你就是原因謝謝部長 謝謝署長"},{"start":14495.943,"end":14506.769,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員這個高金素梅委員改書面下面我們請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在最後我們請郭國文委員質詢謝謝主席 有請劉部長劉部長有請 委員好部長好 部長非常謝謝受災婦的這個環保補貼方案那個公文已經下來了"},{"start":14522.623,"end":14526.665,"text":"謝謝然後因為同樣要談這個補貼因為最近那個租屋補貼的問題在內政部在111年的7月21號的時候有曾經有講說不得以租金補貼為由來調漲租金但是"},{"start":14537.688,"end":14557.817,"text":"就結果來說的話還是會造成租金的上漲就我個人看到數據給部長參考一下根據租金的這個CPI的這個增幅大幅放空主機處有報告101年到110年的時候的年漲大概0.81跟同期整體的這個CPI的這個平均漲幅0.92相差無幾"},{"start":14562.139,"end":14583.354,"text":"但是什麼時候開始租金的這個CPI開始暴漲就是從111年7月的時候年增率突然就成為2%以上那也就是111年的時候7月的時候租金補貼擴大開始日期剛好是同步成長這同步成長那現階段的補貼從300億的擴大租屋補貼開始從12萬戶到50萬戶的試用那目前為止照最新的數字最新的數字"},{"start":14591.46,"end":14619.119,"text":"在今年的二月份目前台灣的整體CPI是1.58那房租的時候是2.56這很明顯大概增加了大概還高於1%左右我想部長請教一下還是署長代打房租的CPI的漲幅跟這個租金補貼應該有關聯性吧根文報告啦其實我們在去年就已經在做過第一次的調查就針對我們領取租金補貼的"},{"start":14622.4,"end":14632.083,"text":"戶數去做一個統計其中因為94%是沒有漲的只有6%而且漲幅也都不大那是你查到了沒有是租客填的我們有針對這個去做調查那這個大概因為主力總署他也是抽樣式的調查他也不是全面性的我們也是從我們的租金補貼我只能說明一件事情是因為租金補貼"},{"start":14650.189,"end":14670.946,"text":"他普通租到的房子我說明一下因為他的房子很大部分都是屬於中古屋甚至老房子他就漲的機率本來就相對比較低但是今天如果是新成屋或是新古屋也就是在10年15年的那他漲的機率是有可能所以兩個是不太相同的市場"},{"start":14671.266,"end":14699.822,"text":"你現在的這個說明老實講是有一個片面的一個說法的存在就主計數的這個統計數字來說還是相對有一定程度的公信力但是我今天不是在argue說真相是如何但是我們要追求真相跟關聯性是如何啦我其實想說是不是內政部因為現在已經實施這麼多年了嘛我們總不希望說把這個租金補貼造成一個助長的結果嘛所以說我們是不是應該去了解一下到底這幾年的政策的實施的結果"},{"start":14700.522,"end":14724.202,"text":"結果如何來做一個回顧檢討一個評估出來有沒有可能不過這個部分就會涉及到所有的租屋市場這是所有的租屋市場而不是只有我們在做調查我們現在是談租屋市場透明化總是我們要逐步去檢討因為110年到現在好幾年了應該是開始做檢討還有評估的時候了我們大概本來是五年一次"},{"start":14725.623,"end":14752.524,"text":"就是說我們再檢討看看這要不要加租但是因為這重大的政策不應該拘泥在那五年嘛好不好萬一五年之後越來越長越快那不是我們政策壓力越來越大嗎組長我做這個建議啦好不好我們做個評估啦部長謝謝啦 部長也在點頭那另外一個部分當然就是納管的問題啦這邊呢我們現階段所掌握到的房租契約就大概實際市場的大約六成啦也就是大概是72萬點7萬啦內政部的報告剛剛有寫嘛"},{"start":14755.886,"end":14780.091,"text":"但是出估抓起來倒推的話我們的租屋主大概是121.1萬也是代表約莫還有48.4萬的黑數也就是未納管的部分那我們現階段是透過公益出租人租金補貼包租貸款等等還有包括財政部的查稅等等所納管的對象而有所增加帳戶大概六成"},{"start":14780.811,"end":14783.901,"text":"可是我必須說從我在財政委員會追蹤這個議題的時候目前我一直從108年"},{"start":14788.673,"end":14810.004,"text":"財政部才抓到6053件也就是一年才抓到1000件違反這個營業稅的規定那這個部分有沒有一個可能性因為畢竟我們問到財政部的時候都提到說內政部是業管單位是主管機關那如果是這樣的話我做一個建議說內政部現在跟不動產的這個資訊平台"},{"start":14812.825,"end":14817.607,"text":"譬如講591、台灣租屋網、租租網、一租網這些團體的時候有沒有合作的空間因為大部分的房東都會去這邊登記出租嘛在這出租的過程當中內政部是不是要跟這些平台合作一下在房東出租的資訊上面應該也有先行繳納繳稅的證明"},{"start":14834.674,"end":14850.673,"text":"或者是用這個作為前提要進來可以攤人廣告這是第一個可能性然後也就是源頭管理的部分另外一個部分財政部有財政部的職責那這個方式可以達到一個實租登錄還有租租市場透明化的一個目標有沒有可能"},{"start":14851.987,"end":14874.464,"text":"這個部分我們再跟業者這邊討論一下因為現在平台業者的部分是沒有公佈他的一個完整的一個門牌一些資訊所以那個東西如果要提供的部分可能還要跟業者討論一下因為業者可能他也會有一些考量對 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宣讀上市會議事錄確定二 邀請財政部部長莊翠雲率所屬機關首長及國營事業董事長總經理和各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董謙士列席業務報告並被質詢報告幾 討論四項合併巡邏經財政部莊翠雲"},{"start":1959.744,"end":1983.351,"text":"部長就業務及行政院提案報告後,即由委員林德福等22人提出質詢。軍軍財政部部長莊卓雲、兆豐金控公司董事長董瑞斌、合作金庫金控公司董事長林衍茂、台北金融大樓公司董事長賈永傑、地域金融控股公司董事長邱月琴、臺灣鷹酒公司董事長湯琪安及相關人員予以說明及答覆。決定。"},{"start":1984.653,"end":1997.374,"text":"一報告說明及許答完畢二委員諮詢就為其答覆後請補充諮詢請向他擔任一周內已書面答覆委員要求期限者從期鎖定討論事項一審查行政院函體審議海關淨核稅者"},{"start":2002.978,"end":2028.926,"text":"修正草案案 決議一 第二章 四章 第十一章 第十六章 第十九章 第二十二章 第三九章 第六十一至六十三章 第八十三章 八十五章 內容均照行政院提案通過二 審查文件 以具審查報告 提報院會討論 院會討論前不需交由黨團修正 院會討論時由賴昭季委員補充說明會總整理 提出中華民國一百一四民眾政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及費營業部分審查總報告草案 提報院會案"},{"start":2030.566,"end":2050.885,"text":"決議一 中華民國一百四四年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算一頁及非一頁部分審查總報告照採案通過提報院會討論區黨團協商二 有關外交及國防社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會市期審訊並將審查報告送達本會後請議事人會總整理 敬禮提報院會並案討論通過臨時提案 四案三會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2056.84,"end":2064.861,"text":"請問各位委員對於上一次的議事錄有無異議沒有我們就議事錄確定那麼請議事人員宣佈今日議程"},{"start":2066.431,"end":2087.625,"text":"二 邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑芝 審計部陳審計長瑞敏 率所屬單位主管 列席業務報告並備質詢討論事項 審查本院委員王洪維 等26人 委員林德福 等20人 委員賴世保 等20人 分別擬據預算法增訂第81條之一條文草案等3案 宣讀完畢好 謝謝"},{"start":2089.451,"end":2097.122,"text":"那我想我們是不是這個安排今日的整個議程我們邀請行政院主計總處主計長、省計長、陳省計長來進行業務報告"},{"start":2103.1,"end":2116.205,"text":"那二就審查本院委員王洪威等26人還有本席林德福等20人以及賴思寶等20人分別擬據預算法增訂第81條之一條文草案"},{"start":2120.946,"end":2147.7,"text":"先將請提案委員來說明提案要旨後再請主計總處陳署記長以及業務單位來報告來回應委員提案的內容接著再請陳審記長來進行業務報告以及財政部來回應委員的提案內容我們首先來請賴世保賴委員來針對他的提案來做說明要旨"},{"start":2152.486,"end":2163.18,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進本席這個提案有20人提案有建議目前我國"},{"start":2165.079,"end":2178.804,"text":"負稅稅課的收入連續三年時針的速度高於當年的預算數已經變成常態了除了事實上我們也贊成要減債取債優先還債之外強化國家的財政韌性"},{"start":2183.846,"end":2203.112,"text":"那麼應該明確的超徵稅收的這個運用讓民間共享這個政府所創造的一個經濟的一個佳績因此提原提案預算法增訂81條之一的草案那就是當政府稅客收入"},{"start":2204.694,"end":2216.413,"text":"實證進而到達預算編列的百分之二十的時候應該要還權於民普發現金這是一個法源 幾個說明第一個 要發多少"},{"start":2218.12,"end":2243.622,"text":"完全受损行政部门所以行政部门还是最重的权力他要花一万 花五千 花六千都是行政部门在决定第二点有人讲说这个根本就不是超增这是一个账的问题事先没有预估好各位我们上一次开过公听会有教授提出来我们去年度经济成长率百分之四"},{"start":2244.795,"end":2266.246,"text":"可是我們的稅客收入增加8%所以這個就實際增加了怎麼沒有實際增加 實際增加了因為按照經濟成長率只有4%可是我們稅客收入就增加8%增加一倍所以這個錢 你說要優先分債 Fine 沒問題但是我們要看過去幾年"},{"start":2268.303,"end":2292.428,"text":"連續三年都超徵 都是四五千億他都說優先還債 要還債 可是還多少 還5.4啊我們的法定是要還5% 他只有多0.4一點點啊 不然就這個時候少舉薪債少舉薪債一千多億而已啊 也沒有多少啊所以現在來講我們是有三千多億"},{"start":2293.516,"end":2314.099,"text":"可以用的名目上是五千多億你說扣掉地方的扣掉這個法定的還有三千多億可以用你真的來使用還債還這個原來的原來的百分之五點多已經有別預算的所以還是有多出來的我覺得我覺得特別是這個稅客收入"},{"start":2315.1,"end":2328.194,"text":"有一大宗占百分之四十左右是來自於中和所得稅中和所得稅就是你我交的稅所以還錢於民其實是非常有震盪性的更何況"},{"start":2329.525,"end":2349.91,"text":"蔡英文總統在當任總統的時候她也編了六千塊行政部門編說我這裡只是給一個法源給一個法源還是由行政部門來主導不是立法部門主導這是一個很重的觀念請各位委員能夠再來支持謝謝各位好 謝謝賴世白賴昭偉"},{"start":2362.177,"end":2365.459,"text":"現在請林德福委員來做提案說明謝謝 謝謝召委本院委員林德福等20人擬據預算法增訂第81條之1條文草案這個林德福 楊瓊英 顏寬恆等20人有建議2017至2023年間全國護稅收入實際金額有6次超過該年度的預算預估"},{"start":2391.576,"end":2414.674,"text":"引發輿論的關注那政府稅收運用除了可透過特別條例將超徵稅收還稅於民外更有民意認為應該要優先減少特別預算債務舉借或照顧弱勢為降低民眾對政府預算運用的"},{"start":2415.495,"end":2436.16,"text":"不信任感,避免政府假借全民經濟成果之名的行政買票大撒幣之時本席來凝聚預算法增訂第81條之一條文草案"},{"start":2437.318,"end":2443.3,"text":"明定該年度法定戶稅收入實際實徵額大於預算數十俗稱就是稅收超徵除了第73條規定辦以外"},{"start":2454.005,"end":2471.45,"text":"因優先來減少特別預算與中央政府總預算債務之舉借擴大照顧弱勢益助勞保基金公教退伏基金以全民健保是我有當 敬請公決 以上謝謝好 謝謝林鄭委員的發言下一位請這個提案委員王鴻鴻委員說明提案的要求請"},{"start":2491.428,"end":2507.364,"text":"好謝謝主席我們各位委員以及我們今天來出席的各位官員我的提案主要是由包含王宏威賴世保黃劍豪等26位委員主要也是有鑒於從2021年起"},{"start":2509.966,"end":2537.124,"text":"我们在税收超征的金额都占该年度预算的都增加从2021年起增加的很多比如说2021年就增加了4300多亿2022年增加了4900多亿2023年增加3600亿而到了去年这个税收超征的数字竟然高达5283亿"},{"start":2540.347,"end":2554.022,"text":"那所以稅收超征當然有人說這是我們的政府部門稅收的部分它過於低估但是呢某一個程度這也代表就是代表我們的一個經濟成果"},{"start":2555.564,"end":2583.79,"text":"所以全民的经济成果应该由全民共享这是非常非常合理的事情那而且呢以我本人还有赖世宝委员的提案我们的提到的税收超征应该还税于民他并不是说只要你有税收超征你就应该来做普发现金而是我们有一个所谓的警戒线有一个门槛"},{"start":2585.07,"end":2600.698,"text":"所以在这边我要特别讲最近我听到比如说我们财政部长讲说这不能常态化不对没有读通或者是故意误导因为在我们的提案里面它是有一个门槛"},{"start":2601.838,"end":2619.15,"text":"也就是说如果我的提案是3000亿如果你的税收超征不足3000亿的时候我们的财主部门有充分的权利他可以去做运用把转入税金剩余或者你要做什么样的运用"},{"start":2619.89,"end":2640.967,"text":"但是以我的版本当你超过3000亿元以上的时候你当然应该去分享全民分享给这些我们的纳税人或者是我们的弱势团体所以所谓的常态化其实呢它是并不存在的而是法治化"},{"start":2641.687,"end":2665.218,"text":"不要每次雖說超徵4000億5000億結果其他各部門就開始大家來搶錢搶來搶去最後反而全民沒有分到所以我們是保障我們所有除了你有例行性的不管你還債不管你照顧你要撥補勞保健保或者是你要去做一些補助但是當你超過3000億元的時候你就應該去"},{"start":2670.56,"end":2686.291,"text":"還稅於民你就應該跟全民分享這是我們這一次修法最主要的目的是把它制度化財政要穩健當然要有制度化如果沒有制度化反而會造成整個財政的問亂以上 謝謝"},{"start":2690.057,"end":2707.293,"text":"謝謝黃委員的提案說明向委員報告今天我們的議程派遞是兩大類一大類是請主計總署以及審計部做他的業務報告另外就審查項預算法"},{"start":2709.034,"end":2732.06,"text":"81條相關的委員提案我們是有兩大類所以我們今天的發言時間我會控制的比較緊一點我們時間不會變但是我們希望大家不要拖太久的時間我們就請行政院主席總署陳主席長進行業務報告以及回應委員的提案內容請"},{"start":2742.165,"end":2763.232,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士及先生今天應邀到貴委員會來報告本總署的業務概況自感榮幸本總署負責的政府預算、會計決算統計調查和主計資訊業務以下請就重要業務辦理的一個情形提出報告敬請各位委員來指教"},{"start":2764.392,"end":2783.544,"text":"第一個預算的業務根據實施中程計劃預算制度還有籌編115年度中央政府總預算案和附屬單位預算及中計表然後為使計劃預算能夠緊密結合提升政府的一個資源使用效益所以我們根據落實中程"},{"start":2784.904,"end":2806.177,"text":"計畫的一個預算作業制度各主管機關115年到118年度的中層稅出概算額度將以114年度的一個預算為基礎來做滾推各機關在核定的額度範圍內配合行政院的一個施政主著妥為規劃各年度的一個施政計畫和安排預算的資源"},{"start":2806.897,"end":2829.042,"text":"本总署也将在兼顾政府财政健全和国家发展的前提下协助各部会按计划优先顺序合理配置运用整体的资源我们大概115年度中央总议刷案和附属单位集中计表预计在114年8月底送请大院来审议"},{"start":2830.404,"end":2855.318,"text":"那再來第二個我們就是編制完成114年度總預算附屬單位預算及中繼表送請大院來審議我們會落實行政院的2050年淨零轉型均衡台灣健康台灣等施政重點我們總處籌編114年度中央總預算和附屬單位及中繼表然後納入永續發展和淨零轉型關鍵戰略"},{"start":2857.479,"end":2872.368,"text":"辦理各項重大建設確保油電水供應穩定及完善居住教育醫療與照顧的民生需求那所以我們1比14年度總收入含基金編了7兆2595總支出是6兆9848然後剩餘2747億元及繳扣是2270億元在去年"},{"start":2883.895,"end":2904.068,"text":"8月30 隨同114年度中央總統政府的總預算案送大院我們期盼大院能儘速完成審議以立個基金業務的一個推動那會計決算的業務113年度總決算附屬單位決算中計表中央政府前瞻計畫"},{"start":2905.589,"end":2930.356,"text":"前瞻建設計畫第四期特別決算那這個部分我們由各機關執行並依決算法依規定期滿辦理決算的編照本總署正依照決算法21條22條會編113年中央政府總決算附屬單位決算還有中計表中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫一個第四期的特別決算"},{"start":2931.096,"end":2959.321,"text":"一 繼在4月底提經行政院會議通過後函送監察院二 深化政府內部控制監督機制為強化機關自我監督機制提升內部控制有效性協助順利達成施政目標根據輔導行政院及所屬機關學校簽署內部控制聲明書然後督促各機關就簽署會有效類型聲明書的重要內部控制缺失徹底進行檢討改善"},{"start":2960.661,"end":2978.468,"text":"並持續辦理教育訓練宣導最新的觀念和實務做法協助機關強化內部控制監督各項的一個工作統計調查業務第一個辦理國民所得統計我們2月26公佈的國民所得統計最新資料是去年第四季成長為"},{"start":2980.569,"end":2995.124,"text":"2.0主要是因為人工智慧應用和智通產品的一個持續熱絡所以實際是輸出實際成長8.9基本形成及新興科技的一個強勁需求那個企業投資力道"},{"start":2996.985,"end":3013.329,"text":"續強實質成長19.2那受惠稅末節慶的一個激勵消費金融市場交易的熱絡以及境外旅遊一個熱潮持續抑制國外消費所以民間消費成長2.49並繼前三季2013年度經濟成長率是4.59%高於新加坡4.4%還有香港2.5%還有南韓2%也高於全球的2.8%"},{"start":3025.752,"end":3049.998,"text":"根據牛津經濟研究院的預測美國雖然推出加徵關稅措施但是因為啟動協商或暫緩或縮小範圍目前評估實際政策力道對各國經濟衝擊上述有限全國經濟平穩成長2.6較去年2.8略緩但不確定性提高國際貨幣基金預測今年世界貿易量成長3.2%"},{"start":3052.659,"end":3074.013,"text":"低於去年3.4% AI技術和相關運用的一個加速擴增 算力需求人因所以我國在地產業供應鏈完整而且升級優勢 所以出口動態持續推升出口的一個動能 內需方面半導體為失業AI商機所以持續"},{"start":3075.613,"end":3094.779,"text":"積極擴充先進製程還有高階風車的一個產能那這些都均支撐我國內投資的一個成長另外就業市場穩健有利薪資的一個持續成長抑制家庭可支配所得加上跨境旅遊熱潮持續所以渴望維續消費成長動能重上預測本年積極成長約3.14"},{"start":3099.68,"end":3105.105,"text":"那辦理物價統計部分我們本處按月實際統計調查113年消費物價者主市CPI比112年漲2.18那食物類上漲3.69主要是蔬果、外食等漲幅比較高不過單列下跌那服務類上漲2.45那主要是因"},{"start":3123.194,"end":3143.015,"text":"全數較大的是房租持續緩漲醫療院所也調升掛號費所以加上停車費、汽車保養等等也是調升所以如果扣除蔬果和能源等短期影響的一個波動較大的項目核心CPI是上漲1.88"},{"start":3144.717,"end":3168.753,"text":"那121至2月比去年同升漲2.12主要因為外食會續漲蔬果肉類水產品人高食物類上漲3.82房租醫療費用市漲所以延續上漲所致所以如果扣除以外CPI上漲1.6那生產者物價指數PPI的部分呢113年比112年漲1.37主要是電子零件"},{"start":3173.636,"end":3189.11,"text":"零組件、電腦等4月份調漲還有加上台電4月和10月調漲電位但因燃氣基數較高下跌所以底下部分帳戶本年1-2月的PVI比去年上漲3.68"},{"start":3191.82,"end":3213.692,"text":"那再來看一下就是人力需求各項一個抽樣調查掌握就業失業薪資等人力供需資訊本總署安約辦理人力資源還有收購員工調查那即時提供勞動市場所需要的一個資訊還有定期辦理補充性專案調查收集勞動力運用移轉就業失業的情況以及員工勞動報酬"},{"start":3216.173,"end":3230.416,"text":"調新情形等資訊必須用相關的公務大數據還有國人戶海外工作統計以及薪資中位數等呈現不同年齡的教育程度那本年1月就業人數11161.9萬主席長盡量剪短了好不好好謝謝那"},{"start":3237.455,"end":3241.917,"text":"比113年增3.2 失業人數39.6單週失業率3.3四週失業率是3.32公安服務預約全旅受訂員工薪資平均數47458那那個"},{"start":3254.29,"end":3265.422,"text":"廠商較集中一月發連中獎金至薪資總平均數增加38.18所至那提出物價因素之後年增0.28經常薪資中位數是38142比實質中位數年增0.31"},{"start":3272.449,"end":3289.905,"text":"那再來基本國事調查的部分我們已完成114年工業和服務業和縣市別報告並規劃辦理115工業和服務業普查的一個構想那114年農林普查方案我們已經奉行政院核定奉行相關機關來配合辦理"},{"start":3291.727,"end":3302.612,"text":"那我們也運用相關的一個大數據來編制縣市常住人口統計等那主計資訊的部分呢我們主要是辦理中央和地方相關預算會計資訊系統的業務那這個部分呢我們在"},{"start":3308.255,"end":3327.869,"text":"中央辦理稅計會計資訊系統還有特種基金稅計會計資訊系統地方稅計會計資訊系統的一些功能增修還有推廣委管管理還諮詢等那我們也協助114年度總預算案和附屬單位預算案還有一個總結112年總決算案相關的一個編制作業那辦理"},{"start":3333.132,"end":3338.953,"text":"統計普查會計倉儲開放作業提升統計普查作業效率和資料品質配合國事調查所以我們辦理普查重要母體地址整編然後110工業普查和服務業普查的縣市報告還有等的一個系統的一個徵修作業那我們也建置主計資料倉儲系統落實資料盤點和分級"},{"start":3357.958,"end":3379.392,"text":"那大院第十一屆第二會期第十次貴委員會所主辦辦理的事項我們這個總共有八項那其中提出推動電子化核銷規劃實成一項將於預算完成法定程序後解凍報告一線回覆外區"},{"start":3381.094,"end":3393.065,"text":"達戶貴委員會及相關委員以上是本總署一個近期工作推展的情形我們今後將持續推進主計業務花園主計人員施政決策效能協助各項業務"},{"start":3395.902,"end":3412.243,"text":"那接下來我繼續報導就是針對大院委員王宏威等26人還有賴世保等20人委員林德虎等20人混北擬聚預算法增訂81條之1條修正相關草案的一個相關說明"},{"start":3414.687,"end":3439.358,"text":"那這個部分我們說明如下第一個所以說時增超過預算數是屬於估計誤差並會常態近5年來中央政府稅客收入雖有4年實際數大預算數但是109年因營所稅或戶稅縮減時增數位如意決而有低預算數的情形第二個所以說時增數超過預算數並不代表整年整體預算有生有財政有餘"},{"start":3441.179,"end":3451.669,"text":"所以必須要先彌品差短並扣除法定還本才是可用的一個資源以112年度來講雖然稅收時增超過2934但是稅如稅出剩餘扣除債務還本1260他只剩下剩餘1536那再來"},{"start":3464.842,"end":3493.181,"text":"這個而且因為特別預算還有差短所以必須舉債支應所以到113年12月底我們未償債務餘額還達5.9兆元那公共債務法規定政府稅務執行情增加債務還本那這個部分呢每一年稅客收入至少要依照體列百分之五到六來編列債務還本所以政府的稅務債務情形還有當年度的一個運算債務還本之外可以增加還本"},{"start":3493.721,"end":3507.403,"text":"那第四個113年度剩餘呢 必須要等到114年企業審計部審定後 程序編入預算後才可以運用那113年度的一個"},{"start":3509.665,"end":3515.107,"text":"預算稅客收入3兆7,619筆預算增加5,283但是這裡分到中央的部分是3,757那如果聯同稅入中央稅客收入增加3,757億部分聯同稅務案稅出扣除債務環本僅剩1,581而且必須等到114年7月"},{"start":3533.636,"end":3546.608,"text":"審計部審定以後才可以透過預算程序才可以運用那稅出剩餘僅是一年度執行結果並不是年年都有所以稅出剩餘扣除網本之後我們如果從100年到112年其中單數年度稅入有一個"},{"start":3551.813,"end":3578.934,"text":"剩餘區域六個都是沒有剩餘的所以這個部分並不是屬於常態性那第六是稅客收入超過預算數的額度納入預算常態化規定無法保持彈性因為環境在變國家政策重點也隨著在變所以有關減少債務舉借照顧弱勢還有抑制保險基金等用途已經有各部會納入公共債務法或重點施政來辦理所以我們"},{"start":3579.734,"end":3598.339,"text":"行政院規劃年度的預算還必須要橫傾涉金的一個情勢變化還有國家當年施政的重點橫走各部會所提相關計畫案計畫優先順序討為納編那政府補完現金是有參的政策目的是用特定的一個事項和時間所以要必須有特別條例來規劃"},{"start":3600.239,"end":3613.855,"text":"以過往為例 全民共享經濟成果不發現金所需要的是有行政委擬據 依後強化經濟與社會韌性全民共享經濟成果特別條例來送大院來審議 具以編列預算"},{"start":3616.658,"end":3636.892,"text":"3.基於稅收時增數超過預算數的額護預算法明定限制用於普華現金或其他項目年度進行中如果發生重大災害或疫情相關額度將無法因應重上因應氣候變遷、地緣政治風險的不確定因是政府尚需維持適度的財政韌性以為因應"},{"start":3637.873,"end":3654.864,"text":"原個委員所提增訂本版條人請審慎研議 以上報告敬請各位委員 女士 先生指教 祝大家健康快樂 萬事如意 謝謝謝謝陳主計長的報告我們下一位請 審計部的陳審計長 請好了 盡量剪短 好不好 盡量剪短"},{"start":3676.55,"end":3696.182,"text":"你需要開麥克風你麥克風沒有開因為本部依法掌理政府及所屬機關的財務審計多年來承蒙大委員的支持與鼓勵各項審計工作均能按照計畫進行藉此競表由衷的感謝114年度依法審核中央政府中央最地方7968個機關單位"},{"start":3700.384,"end":3721.579,"text":"收支金額二十七兆一元之執行之將審計業務辦理概況 檢要報告如下一 總結算及特別結算之審核一百一十二年度中央政府總結算計 副使單位結算及重計表及中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及失控進行特別結算 本部以依憲法"},{"start":3722.279,"end":3735.874,"text":"第105條的規定期限完成審查直轄市及縣市政府112年度的總決算亦經各地方審計處事在法定期限內完成審核提出重要審核意見2394項"},{"start":3738.897,"end":3761.517,"text":"二 半年結算報告之審核 本部以依法第26條之一的規定期限完成查核並於113年9月27日提出半年結算查核報告與答案直向市政府半年結算 依經本部各地方審計處置在法定期限內完成審查提出重要審核意見63項"},{"start":3763.419,"end":3782.707,"text":"二 審計綜合績效112年度各項審計業務執行計劃審核112年度結算經依法修正稅率收入結算即增累14億元減累11億元依法修正稅出租出結算增累28億元減累44億元"},{"start":3787.249,"end":3814.364,"text":"績效性審計考核各機關的績效報告監察案者65案提出重要建設改建改建意見於各機關者280項認為有可能提升效能或增進公共利益提出建議意見923項提出議警性意見224項機甲財務上至為師報酬監察案處理者12案移送諸法機關者7案通知各機關查明處理者119案"},{"start":3816.365,"end":3830.508,"text":"3.更新強化審計功能以落實創新核心價值4.更新推展公民參與審計強化諸行專家學者及公開諸行民眾意見近三年度已完成專家諸行計512處公開徵行民眾意見計91案2.透過"},{"start":3837.91,"end":3860.301,"text":"主動提供民眾審計資訊 近三年發布1772則重要的審計資訊五 更細優化中央總結算的審核報告 除細深化中央施政議題的查核專章 精進總結算審核報告的審編及資訊公開三 專章會編行政機關優良案例推廣擴散情形六"},{"start":3862.121,"end":3878.907,"text":"導致多元資訊科技推動數位發展 具體作為除息開發數位審計模組建構行政分析審計資源平台 建構中央風險導向的數位環境 其加強審計培力 後續專利發展"},{"start":3882.388,"end":3890.114,"text":"1.促進審計專業培訓2.鼓勵世衛住址學習3.擴展國際審計視野4.114年度審計工作重點5.更新加強辦理重大施政計畫及有關民生議題之審計6.加強特別決算執行之審計"},{"start":3905.682,"end":3921.095,"text":"3.更新加強特種基金公務執行成效之審計4.加強國營事業營運效能之考核5.加強重大公共建設執行情形之積查6.積極擴展市會審計查核議題創造最大審計價值7.加強地方政府財政管理之審計有關大宴第11屆第二會期只重要辦理"},{"start":3934.14,"end":3958.914,"text":"主辦重要事項之處理應市面答覆者五項以韓報大院財政委員及香港委員一事事項以列為審核參考審計工作的主要目的在於促使政府健全財務秩序協助國家良善治理本部當時加強推動各項審計業務以善盡審計職責以上報告僅請主席、各位委員、女士、先生、主教謝謝"},{"start":3961.428,"end":3977.898,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長的報告有關財政部報告就請各位執行參閱因為我們時間已經有點拖了我們現在開始進行詢答每位委員 主席委員發言8分鐘必要的時候"},{"start":3978.798,"end":3996.943,"text":"延長兩分鐘 立席委員會五分鐘向各位委員報告在過去我都會讓各位委員多長七分鐘因為今天要登記的人相當多其他委員會很少開會所以我們都比較嚴格執行就是時間到了我會站起來"},{"start":3998.183,"end":4016.765,"text":"那麼首先我們就請今天上午10點截止發言的登記本次會議委員如果有相關的修正動議請盡送主席來以便議事人員整理現在以登記的順序請登記第一位的林德武委員質詢 請"},{"start":4029.735,"end":4031.077,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我們這個財政部莊部長陳主席長莊部長沒有來就是蘭次長來我來請那個主席長陳主席長請"},{"start":4048.479,"end":4068.082,"text":"委員好主席長你好主席長我請教因為財政部長說普發現金不宜常態化是政府一直以來的主張那我請問主席長以您的立場還稅移民普發現金常態化法制化是不是根本沒有討論的空間"},{"start":4071.192,"end":4085.591,"text":"我們原則上是不支持這樣的一個原則上不支持那我請教基於113年稅收時增數優於預算數但歸屬於中央政府的部分沒有比2022年高"},{"start":4087.834,"end":4104.85,"text":"財政部認定普發現金不宜常態化那主席長111年度政府普發現金六千元的條件請問你認為是不是可以作為政府未來普發現金的門檻"},{"start":4107.108,"end":4121.905,"text":"怎麼樣委員報告一下當初普發現金它有它特殊的一個目的性而且呢它是因為預估成長率整個一個疫後的一個消費它會消費退回所以我們為了加速振興"},{"start":4122.586,"end":4147.773,"text":"才特別你具有特別條例特別條例然後來送貴院來審議經過貴院審議之後呢那我們才去迴遍預算所以這個部分呢所以我們是希望能夠維持經濟成長的一個穩定因為當初那時候的一個經濟成長率才2.1所以我們必須要希望它能夠持續的成長所以才發放現金好我請問你還是你認為稅收時增速"},{"start":4152.594,"end":4177.413,"text":"優於預算數政府除了還債以外根本沒有其他考量的空間是這樣嗎事實上我們目前有很多重大建設譬如說重大建設都有編預算嘛你不要拉到那裡去每一年他的先後次序排列的不一樣所以我們不能把他定在法條裡面那他將來執行沒有我請問你"},{"start":4179.161,"end":4201.01,"text":"那個財政部說稅收優於預期要先減少取債優先還債那如果能累積到稅劑剩餘財源應用要考量國家的產源發展本席認為啊財政部的立場無可厚非但是退一步來看國家"},{"start":4202.17,"end":4223.142,"text":"之於人民好比這個股份有限公司之股東那我請問主席長你認為中華民國是基優股的成長股還是雞蛋水餃股一民看當然是基優股基優股好以國內的財政狀況來看財報是看好還是難看"},{"start":4227.771,"end":4253.542,"text":"好看還是難看看好看好看那為什麼沒有辦法考量像花放鼓勵一樣還稅於民普花炫金為什麼因為他不是每一年都一定每一年不是每一年都有反過來因為今天就是定的他是要達到一個門檻那反過來如果難看"},{"start":4254.867,"end":4270.938,"text":"前幾年又為何能夠花三倍券六千元的現金呢那是有針對特別疫後的一個情況來做一個考量而且當初的一個經濟成長情況也不是很好所以那時候我們就為了加強"},{"start":4271.758,"end":4296.864,"text":"或提升經濟的一個成長所有而花放一個現金所以這是有特殊的目的而且每一項的一個政策的施行它優先順序每一年排列的情緒都不一樣而且如果我們把它定了沒有彈性以後將來再執行就會有它是達到一個程度啊不是沒有彈性啊主席長從公司的經營角度來看經營者心中"},{"start":4298.123,"end":4322.482,"text":"要很在乎股東的財富那股利則是由內部經營者對未來整個成長與風險的思維來作為判斷所以如果不景氣而賺不到成長的差價對股息的期望會較高那本席認為說整個國家經營也是如此"},{"start":4323.644,"end":4330.493,"text":"數十年的整個國家發展到現在近二十多年來貧富差距極端化"},{"start":4331.448,"end":4355.264,"text":"那戶人少而集中 中產階級扁平化窮盲族根本看不到能夠好轉的未來那近貧各種弱勢族群嗷嗷待哺那請問主席長 人民看到政府稅收超增難道不會有所期待嗎 你看呢"},{"start":4356.064,"end":4384.696,"text":"再跟委員報告如果說我們今年稅收有超收的部分那這個部分呢我們原則上會導入到剩餘去那累積剩餘以後經過審計部審定以後導入累積剩餘那我們再來再編列預算就會將預算裡面有相關對於民生重要的一個項目列為優先那這個部分並不一定要發放現金才叫做有利於民生 以上"},{"start":4385.876,"end":4406.431,"text":"好比公司賺錢不發鼓勵給股東一樣如果股東經濟條件變好其實公司不發鼓勵本席認為對鼓勵的期待心理也不會太高反過來經濟條件變差人民這幾年持續面對高房價"},{"start":4407.881,"end":4425.401,"text":"通盆高物價甚至連便當小吃都快翻倍的漲價那我請問主席長民眾對於還稅移民普花現金的期待難道不也是對政府經營有成投下贊成票的回饋嗎"},{"start":4426.542,"end":4441.652,"text":"你的看法呢這個就像一個公司的經營一樣啊跟委員報告回饋人民的一個方式有很多種我可以利用各種政策而且等於是說我有國防的需要我有"},{"start":4442.752,"end":4461.348,"text":"那個健保的一個需要或零到六歲各項的一個教育支出的一個需要這些的部分那個都有變預算嘛不是說沒有變預算沒有匡列啊政府不應該把普發現金看成好像異端才對"},{"start":4462.529,"end":4481.859,"text":"對不對就像一個公司的經營一樣對不對你公司經營有成當然股東就是希望你發股利配股息吧對不對這個整個國家的運作跟一個公司的經營幾乎就是翻版那個主席長不要有那種思維主席長"},{"start":4482.719,"end":4503.952,"text":"因為去年8月中旬公布112年家庭收支的調查結果顯示112年普發現金新台幣6000元的政策挹注下每戶可支配所得差距的倍數縮減為6.12倍你有沒有去了解尤其是對低所得"},{"start":4504.873,"end":4533.371,"text":"主的影響很大 低所得主喔 主計長本席借用前主計長朱澤民說過的話人民貧窮感確實政府責任較大既然普發現金可以拉近所得差距的倍數更對低所得主有大影響 那我請問主計長基於民眾的觀感是不是可以再考量一下普發現金的可行性"},{"start":4535.992,"end":4555.263,"text":"這個部分我免則上還必須要往上去牽扯往上牽 因為你就跟上級講這個就像一個公司的經營一樣不要那麼執著而且我剛剛有特別提到就是有很多低所得主他們的期待 主席長"},{"start":4556.204,"end":4575.955,"text":"上個禮拜央行召開第一季的禮監事會議雖然主計總處曾說目前整個物價情勢相對平穩央行總裁也說根據以前電價調漲的弧度對CPI的影響對CPI有影響但影響不大那主計長去年底行政院召開"},{"start":4576.835,"end":4600.277,"text":"物價穩定小組會議啊敲定關鍵原物料降稅再延一季到3月底那我請問主席長你認為25日討論降稅措施退場的機率大不大大不大因為這個部分會我是沒去參加但是我是覺得是說要降稅應該是不會啦應該不會"},{"start":4603.052,"end":4620.74,"text":"要降稅 換句話說就是可能會截止就對了是不是不是 它一般它有降稅的部分會維持但是維持之後它還是要一直檢討檢討現況的一個情形然後再去決定哪些項目因為現在目前是還在討論當中還沒有做決定啦"},{"start":4622.321,"end":4636.535,"text":"因為有媒體報導基於國際情勢仍不穩定減稅措施會考量再延一季延到六月底那請問主計長國際情勢是不是考量降稅與火與物價穩定是唯一的因素嗎"},{"start":4637.625,"end":4652.619,"text":"因為國際情勢目前一向都還不是很穩定而且還沒有很明朗化所以目前這個部分還是要看整個一個狀況而且它一直隨時都在變所以這個部分我們也會去檢討按照去年底"},{"start":4654.416,"end":4676.345,"text":"這個穩定物價小組的決議這個研議政策退場必須整個國際農工原料價格趨緩那整個國內物價持續的趨穩而且未來展望這個維持穩定請問主席長你認為今年有沒有退場的可能性降稅的措施退場會不會"},{"start":4678.258,"end":4697.154,"text":"這個重新推升物價會不會其實因為我們如果有電價有調漲那目前房租還有一些外食是有比較偏高但是其他都很穩定包括有一些國際油料的部分都是在低價裡面來盤選好 謝謝林委員的質詢 下一位請吳秉樂委員質詢"},{"start":4712.745,"end":4717.607,"text":"主席麻煩請陳主計長跟阮次長主計長 阮次長請兩位好委員好我在這個地方有十幾年的經驗所以我對於這個普發現金或是類似現金的這個消費券"},{"start":4740.848,"end":4766.331,"text":"大概有遇到過幾次第一次是馬政府時代第二次是蔡政府時代蔡政府時代是三倍券五倍券再加上六千塊現金這一些都有一個共同的特徵它都是行政院認為應該要這樣做所以他提了一個特別條例到立法院來審議"},{"start":4767.981,"end":4792.501,"text":"立法院通過之後再根據這個特別條例來編預算然後再來實施也就是說立法院依照憲法是審查預算不能做預算的提案如果你把預算的提案放在法律的硬性規定那行政權存在的"},{"start":4794.125,"end":4821.438,"text":"兩大支柱一個預算一個人事就被你立法機關拿走了所以在這個地方我覺得既然是我們像我在立法院這一屆進來宣誓的時候我們事實上面是要克尊憲法但是現在好像把憲法都當作不那麼一回事反正要達到政治目的比較重要所以我覺得正常的程序應該是這樣才對吧"},{"start":4823.424,"end":4838.057,"text":"那如果現在要不要 我要給你定在法律裡面立法院高薪要給你怎麼用 就要給你怎麼用沒有經過詳細的評估在馬政府的時代 那個時候經濟遇到重挫經濟成長率非常低 甚至只有零點幾"},{"start":4841.352,"end":4867.417,"text":"這政府實在是遇到疫情疫情之後又國際地緣衝突所以使得國際之間的物價非常的不穩定那經濟的成長當時預估可能會有困難所以才會有這一些舉動今年如果照去年的這個預算的實收數高於預算數中央政府的部分中央部分大概是3700多億吧那3700多億"},{"start":4871.158,"end":4887.527,"text":"可是去年的預算裡面光是要舉借的金額是多少1571億那一部分後來是不是就沒有舉借力有錢的就不用舉借了啊對 不僅沒有舉借而且多還了1500多億這兩個加起來就3000多億那你3700億填補這個窟窿"},{"start":4894.178,"end":4912.143,"text":"沒有借在線上多還的就剩下幾百億而已啊所以如果你因為預算上面的時收數高於預算數三千億你就要來編你就規定說要來發現金的話那這不是變成政府必須要舉借來發現金嗎的確會有這個問題以前我們的賴昭偉我最佩服的是他非常堅持財政紀律啦"},{"start":4923.052,"end":4930.006,"text":"哪有人除非情況非不得已不然的話一個政府怎麼會去借錢要來發現金給國民而且這個發現金給國民"},{"start":4935.682,"end":4957.079,"text":"這個預算的理想是要調劑營需就要縮短這個財富這個差距的倍數所以如果要照顧民眾的話要照顧中低收入最優先照顧弱勢最優先照顧需要照顧人最優先你一普發會有一個狀況"},{"start":4959.147,"end":4987.576,"text":"非常有錢的人張忠謀是我們的國民啊 他這麼有錢他需要你這一萬塊嗎那立法委員的薪水一個月都二十幾萬當然我們支出也很多 但是有需要這一萬塊嗎就變成說本來預算的另外一個目的希望能夠調劑營需對中央地方還有對國民之間的財富差距的縮小"},{"start":4988.886,"end":4993.208,"text":"變成這個普發也沒有辦法達到這個功效是不是有這樣的狀況市長你回答一下所以我一直認為說這裡面大有問題為什麼要這樣做這是我私人個人的猜測因為"},{"start":5008.328,"end":5023.338,"text":"政府要撥補台電的一千億砍掉啦預算碼要刪掉不給他過啊所以四月電價眼看就要漲價啦國人都知道漲價是因為政府全準備要撥補台電你不給他撥補嘛"},{"start":5026.092,"end":5053.17,"text":"所以電價會漲怕人家罵現在趕快推出說我要發現金所以就有人說過嘛你何必這樣子呢你那一千億政府準備的錢你給台電台電不用漲這個民生電價那你就不用擔心還不用後面要來發錢來補是一萬塊錢比較重要呢還是電價漲的時候因為電價漲價所引動的生產成本各式各樣的成本漲價或低調"},{"start":5055.908,"end":5076.521,"text":"所以說為了要達到政治的目的做政治的攻防去做錯誤的事情繞了一圈然後再拿錯誤的事情要來填補這是我私人的看法而且這樣做違憲因為立法院沒有預算的提案權我們是預算的審議權"},{"start":5078.422,"end":5098.352,"text":"你的預算提來立法院 我們審議覺得有不適當的地方 適當的刪減而不是像這樣子啦 六千億 刪減或凍結要六千億國家的總預算才三億 三兆一千萬 三兆一千億弄了六千億 更何況連監察院96%的行政費"},{"start":5102.714,"end":5129.982,"text":"事務費都把我拿掉我那天公祭遇到李鴻鈞以前我們在地方 我們是朋友嘛他現在當副院長他跟我抱怨說你們立法院亂搞讓我們台電 電費已經兩個月付不出來我跟他說 兄弟 聰明情緒不喜歡亂搞是要刪除的人給你機關預算然後把你的事務費全部都拿掉你什麼事情都不能做嘛"},{"start":5131.651,"end":5159.913,"text":"連電梯都不能開啊紙也不能用現在立法委員要到如果要去做財產申報以前是電腦打開大家直接對就可以了資料取得很方便現在要到立法院去他沒有要用書面來所以假設每一個立法委員在銀行的戶頭都要去銀行請資料用紙本大家來對本來三分鐘可以處理的事情現在三天處理不完啊"},{"start":5161.972,"end":5181.689,"text":"這次就是現狀啊 因為亂刪減預算的結果所以現在面臨一個大罷免的風潮結果真正富裕的時候 如果好好大家坐下來商量這件事情那就是一個補考的機會 把它弄回來正常 可以討論"},{"start":5183.188,"end":5202.005,"text":"一樣啊 財化法也一樣啊你們就還沒有跟 把那個公事弄好地方也沒有弄好 你現在公事只有搶錢那也不來講說事務增加多少將惡搞的結果要一團亂所以難怪會有人推測說是故意要讓中華民國癱瘓真的這種話我在民間都聽到了那這個"},{"start":5209.11,"end":5236.339,"text":"大家對立法院有意見民眾對立法委員有意見不是因為選出來之後馬上翻臉啦是你自己做的事情是不是好好的想一下有哪一些事情做得真的讓人家不滿意那大家坐下來把這個結怎麼好好的解開解開自然就沒罷免了嘛那時候我們自己現在在聊啊如果總預算的刪減是民眾不滿的原因"},{"start":5237.54,"end":5265.988,"text":"那 複製的時候好好來談再花點時間把這個總預算處理好適當的刪減 大家給你鼓掌惡意的亂刪 全部這樣子亂砍求他不要啊連讓院長來立法院報告都不要啊就用一天 然後就把他表決通過了啊才化法也一樣啊你這個越綁越緊 就是硬要火車對撞嘛"},{"start":5267.666,"end":5292.178,"text":"所以我在這個地方誠懇的呼籲過去這個東西是有制度的我們是有財政紀律的你的預算的處理應該像過去的方法先由行政院考量整個社會的狀況認為有必要的話提一個特別條例來到立法院經立法院對特別條例審查的結果"},{"start":5293.138,"end":5297.432,"text":"再根據這個結果來編列預算到本院來審議通過之後再來處理這樣才是正辦 對不對"},{"start":5301.685,"end":5328.673,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們目前的做法就是說我們如果稅收如果實證數超過預算數的話我們是先還債,那麼減少舉債如果多的,那麼就是移到稅金剩餘那稅金剩餘的運用就要看我們的施政優先順序比如說像民生或者是照顧弱勢或者是國防等等這些由行政部門做通盤的考量"},{"start":5329.113,"end":5338.318,"text":"是啦 這個才是正辦啦齁加油要堅持啦對的事情要堅持不要被帶到錯的方向去啦謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳秉瑞委員來 我們接下來賴世保 賴昭偉大罵沒人回頭"},{"start":5358.739,"end":5366.588,"text":"謝謝主席 請各位先進我們柯總在來這裡我就先請我們的主組長好不好 陳組長好 主組長 陳組長來"},{"start":5376.94,"end":5399.285,"text":"老柯好不容易啊 今天大駕光臨啊說買票啊那你在罵蔡英文喔蔡英文上一次就發六千塊喔 你在罵蔡英文喔現在越來越大喔 罵蔡英文喔還有剛才無品類委員不斷的強調一直在講我 所以我一定要回一下啦這裡面這裡面不要忘了他裡面都講錯啊今天"},{"start":5406.144,"end":5421.513,"text":"今天卓榮特院長提總預算的預算案是有詢答的不是直接表決 真言說瞎話不要這樣子講喔 不要只是惡鬥而已喔"},{"start":5423.897,"end":5446.124,"text":"我以前都跟你說的 我的老柯 老柯想當院長一直來這裡打評論我講話你聽不聽 你聽不聽 老柯聽不聽ZIP ZIP 你知道ZIP嗎那個拉鍊拉起來叫ZIP ZIP 老柯ZIP好 來 我請教主計總署的主計長"},{"start":5447.88,"end":5452.923,"text":"3月21號 電價審議委員會 破天荒啦 家庭用戶跟小店家11%產業5% 平均是6% 央行總裁說本來是8%啦我請問你 請問你啦 組織總組有派人去嗎"},{"start":5469.895,"end":5476.523,"text":"這個電駕審議委員會有沒有派人去?有沒有?時間快了,我出局了你不知道喔?確定喔?確定喔?這時間暫停一下啦,都在錄"},{"start":5490.086,"end":5500.731,"text":"有沒有派人 他們有派人啊 竹地種族怎麼會沒有派人去啊為什麼長小戶放大戶呢這個東西啊 大家都知道這個結果一查出來就是司馬遺啊 講的啦 這個司馬昭之心啊 路人皆知啊"},{"start":5516.005,"end":5537.046,"text":"為什麼 為了大罷免天才火啊 你看 普羅大眾 把你氣成這樣 帳要算在野黨的啦就是這樣而已 就這樣子而已 你也不要講話不要講話 因為這個審議委員會不是你決定的 你也沒有去啊 你給我去"},{"start":5538.668,"end":5553.969,"text":"你有沒有去?你有沒有去?我沒去,但是我要跟委員說這是會前會而來沒有去不要講話,沒有去不要講話你有去就跟你講,沒有去就不要講這個很清楚,就是行政院,他在揚我啦"},{"start":5555.794,"end":5581.865,"text":"他就說 喔 因為我們不給他補貼一千億喔所以呢 看 我就張你們架 讓你們去找南北的立委人算帳結果 主席長 我們過去補貼台電三千億啊你仔細聽啊 你不要看那個 仔細聽我講補了三千億 四年漲五次啊"},{"start":5583.761,"end":5608.169,"text":"我公開質詢郭志輝我說我給你一千億是不是你就不漲價他不承諾啊 照漲啊給了三千億給了三千億四年漲五次最近漲的是去年十月到現在不到一年 又要漲又要漲 更加凸顯我們今天案子的重要性"},{"start":5609.81,"end":5628.816,"text":"既然你都一直要欺負老百姓那個補一千億也是老百姓的錢那不是天上掉下來也不是大風刮來的是我們的納稅的錢補台電錯誤的人員政策核電一度1.4塊錢不用要用4塊錢、5塊錢、6塊錢的光電、風電沒有認真cost down"},{"start":5637.697,"end":5656.488,"text":"四年漲五次這幾年我們給了三千億每年漲啊這是一個漲價內閣啊所以我們主席講貪污內閣主席講得很接近了啦這個更加凸顯普發現金的重要"},{"start":5657.69,"end":5667.991,"text":"老百姓、美人、老公、企業企業這樣變動以前買一個,下次買半個所以普發現金給大家交電費就是這樣而已"},{"start":5673.906,"end":5690.539,"text":"我跟委員報告我們主要是在彌補他對民生電價他以前年度他沒有漲價的這一個部分那這一個部分估計起來也將近漲價不是你漲的啊你一直維持民生電價的部分沒有漲那這一個部分漲到11%要漲11%漲11%怎麼沒有呢"},{"start":5696.724,"end":5719.574,"text":"他總共有2800億左右的一個部分他都沒有彌平所以後來我們編追加再追加為什麼他不用核電一度童子田都說我們一年要3000億度電如果通通改成核電就省3000億當然不可能通通要核電差不多學者都說20%20%就是600億度電一度省一塊錢不只一塊錢喔"},{"start":5725.296,"end":5741.525,"text":"一度省3塊錢就1000多億就出來了我根本不需要補貼啊改成核電就有了啊你現在1.4那你風電、光電4塊錢以上我一度差3塊錢啊我就1000多億就有了啊"},{"start":5742.95,"end":5764.642,"text":"對不對 現在修法在外面給你弄好了美國壓力也來了 美國爸爸也說叫我們用核電為什麼不順勢去走下去就都改觀不要補一千億 也不要漲價我們立法院還做了決議說不可以漲價的 你們照常啊"},{"start":5765.362,"end":5793.058,"text":"是名利如物嗎?這樣啊這是你都沒回答啦但是我是跟你說清楚我是跟你說清楚你要聽進去 你告訴我 左院長這個 代表普發現金來繳電費太重要了真的老百姓不要擁有啦我們再看啊 主席人數主席長 來我們現在總預算 開始又沒有新的 新公佈的總預算"},{"start":5795.369,"end":5812.666,"text":"是有公告了是不是開始可以使用了對 已經開始用了那軍公教條新是不是開始調了軍公教條新是可以調了可以調了喔 確定喔這是你自己講的喔今年的預算比去年多了1368億"},{"start":5815.928,"end":5842.399,"text":"結果我們的院長 大院長還說總預算之外還是多了一千多億內政部多四百億 國防部多四百億國防部前幾天 顧立雄接受馬文君的質詢他說海昆豪一毛錢都沒有刪對不對 還有呢 教育部多了三百億外務部多了三百零六億 這都你的數字啊"},{"start":5844.233,"end":5855.717,"text":"這都你的啊 怎麼會說沒有錢呢怎麼會衛生紙沒有呢怎麼說廁所裡面的衛生紙給你炸呢怎麼會這樣子呢你自己講的 你看陳組長"},{"start":5859.659,"end":5887.193,"text":"你看 你就被我們的總委長打臉來 你講是 因為我們增加的都是公共建設包括勞健保但是減的他都減在特定的項目譬如說減業務譬如說你的局官減到為0我們現在就來講一個東西什麼補救 你總是要有個補救對不對可以不可以追加給女生可以不可以追加給女生"},{"start":5887.833,"end":5907.531,"text":"可以追加減預算 但是時間來不及因為追加減預算的話 如果通過的時候我們現在縱使3月要公佈以後才可以開始籌編公佈了 已經公佈了公佈開始籌編 但是要有作業的時間那送到貴會來審查 通過的時候就將近6月將近6月 沒關係 我看一位"},{"start":5909.512,"end":5928.494,"text":"我們研會有要幫你審嗎沒有問題啊但是這段時間沒有錢支出啊這段時間以我所謂都沒有錢捏有的撿到領的他完全隨便會付不出來除了監察院以外啦其他沒有啦還有還有黨產會啊這些都有撿到領的那你就撿到領就用第二倍金可以不"},{"start":5929.335,"end":5944.648,"text":"第二億北京還要報立法院 要去檢查也可以所以我問你喔 因為我時間快到了齁我今天在不太有時間第一個 可以用追加檢預算可以用第二億北京來解決你講的問題 對吧"},{"start":5946.349,"end":5969.441,"text":"但是跟委員報告最佳解預算有最佳解預算的條件第二預備金可以嗎第二預備金只能針對部分的執行有困難的部分執行有困難一直沒講到這個部分也必須要報到院裡面來讓院裡面報我請問那個中選會那個他現在都行政院的第二預備金那個可以嗎對不對"},{"start":5972.033,"end":5997.516,"text":"川普的戰爭是比貪汙一百倍可怕我剛剛是這樣子你現在要不要進去 讓我說一下齁那個主席長啊 是我現在就跟你啊 好好的跟你講 是我就問你 第二倍均 PLUS追加減預算是不是可以解你的問題 是不是呃 呃 可不可以可不可以 你回答我 可不可以"},{"start":5998.601,"end":6003.864,"text":"因為我們第二預備金以目前來講的話如果被刪減的那個部分要辦追加那個部分沒有辦法為什麼沒辦法一切歸零啊就可以開始追加減了怎麼不可以呢"},{"start":6019.243,"end":6026.569,"text":"不是 歸零的追加減他會來不及可以啦請那個沈記長來一下沈記長來來來沈記長陳沈記長把事情釐清來 謝謝在國會殿堂要講真話喔沈記長你們這位副主記長可以不可以用"},{"start":6045.014,"end":6070.019,"text":"第二倍金來處理第二倍金 凍住第二倍金有四個條件好啦 現在時間到不要講條件了齁我現在告訴你齁 處紀長我是很失望你今天給我這樣答案啦因為你來找我的時候你就講兩個追加錢預算PLUS PLUS齁特別就是第二倍金我都跟你說"},{"start":6071.874,"end":6089.48,"text":"我絕對歡迎,我都非常正面的回應,結果今天來這裡怎麼都縮起來了,縮起來了,我覺得我對你的時候,不知道我以前對你有沒有尊敬喔,來,我們讓神經長講一句話喔,你對於現在人家講的,人家講的那個陽光啊,兩千,"},{"start":6091.107,"end":6116.402,"text":"你的領據有問題,你怎麼處理?陽廣兩千筆的,這怎麼處理?因為陽廣是財團法人,財團法人法這個屬於文化部督導文化部要負責監督你要不要查?文化部已經移送檢調了你可不可以查?任何動用國家資源我都可以查所以,請問你什麼時候要去查?"},{"start":6117.142,"end":6138.567,"text":"因為這個已經文化部委託會計書查過了但是你還是可以查啊我們會做一些了解我要求你去查可以嗎我們會 你有要求的話我們會進行了解什麼時候開始一個月你可以嗎因為我們整個一個月可以嗎一個月可以嗎"},{"start":6145.474,"end":6146.735,"text":"主席有請主席長主席上請"},{"start":6176.533,"end":6204.455,"text":"委員好主席好 延續剛剛賴委員的議題我想我在總質詢裡有問過到底追加預算可不可惜統一項目刪除掉顯然沒有道理在追加預算門剛好想要表示這個意見嘛 對不對因為總預算被刪減掉的部分追加預算有條件嘛有部分是不符合啦對 如果說在追加的話那不是代表那個立法院刪錯了嗎"},{"start":6206.176,"end":6223.32,"text":"另外一個部分站在一個可以解決問題的一個出發點來說應該現在先去處理的那些凍結的部分委員會可以凍結有多少那需要院會來解凍有多少主委長這個部分可能要先行去準備啦如果說在野黨有體會到現在的預算已經變成自愛難行的話想要透過追加預算或第二預備金來處理的話"},{"start":6229.361,"end":6248.514,"text":"這也不是壞事對國家不是壞事他們願意承認錯誤過度刪減但是呢就現實上可處理的應該先進行解凍嘛主委長我們是要解凍就是因為我們1380億嘛但是他解凍有的有條件那條件就是說你譬如說他解凍"},{"start":6250.075,"end":6277.602,"text":"那凍結70%他要用完30%再可以來對那個其實很困難啦老實講連解凍的方式都很自愛難行那現在來說的話那現在要發現金不又是另一種矛盾的現象嗎對不對所以我是覺得現階段都是站在一個過度刪減預算之後想要解套的一個心理狀況提出今天的這一個法案出來啦基本上這不是所謂的還稅移民啦"},{"start":6279.222,"end":6295.003,"text":"這是在花現金救罷免啦不可諱言的這幾位提案人當事人基本上都是被罷免的對象我覺得這個問題點在於說我們公聽會的時候在審查的時候居然沒有一個學者願意背書更何況連民眾黨的部分"},{"start":6296.164,"end":6320.714,"text":"民眾黨的部分所找來的學者也反對更何況你去看喔 主席長你不覺得憂心嗎如果之前的刪減是錯誤的 凍結是錯誤的你看刪減的部分有高達多少我自己哈布蘭光計算是3683我不曉得對不對 這是第一第二個呢 這個財化法的部分是3753這把中央拿掉了錢第三個呢 你又要把這個現金發放常態化"},{"start":6322.134,"end":6324.941,"text":"這不整個中央財政都掏空了嗎變成是三搶分啦組長 你擔不擔心啊"},{"start":6329.491,"end":6356.255,"text":"事實上如果說財化修正要減少3753這個部分我們可能在115年周邊的時候就會有發生困難因為我們有一些原來的業務應該要移撥給地方的部分沒有移撥而且移撥還要依照法律要修正法律才可以移撥所以這個後遺症不是今年而已還有明年甚至大後年延續下去"},{"start":6356.735,"end":6377.043,"text":"就是如同你剛剛你之前回答本席的是說在院會當中所有的新興預算都不能處理嘛對不對新興預算不能處理是預算還沒有通過啦那是總預算那現在總預算已經公佈了總預算可以公佈那開始進行了對現在目前就是前瞻前瞻還沒有通過前瞻還沒有通過那如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":6380.905,"end":6396.564,"text":"那有一些重大的這個超過一百億的部分的新興預算可以處理就如同本席所整理的這些那哪一些跟賴清德總統裡頭政見比較優先相關的新興計畫是不是應該優先處理那個主席長你有沒有去整理過"},{"start":6398.348,"end":6421.435,"text":"這個部分目前其實我們是可以有三棟的一個部分大部分就是說譬如說像那個節能電器補助這個比較攸關民生的那我們還正新要50億元的這個部分還有那個健康台灣60億這個部分會先執行護理人力整變的這個部分要是有這幾個這都會先執行"},{"start":6428.158,"end":6447.228,"text":"這個應該如果說預算有通過就可以執行好 那就說有一些先進預算可以開始進行嘛那一些地方建設的部分以台南的先進運輸來說的話有沒有可能爭取得到第一期的南線的部分周遭預算的部分有沒有其他的這個方式可不可以進行"},{"start":6448.829,"end":6464.468,"text":"這個部分是進行但是115年以後可能會影響到但是至少先進行嘛好不好可以弄的話今年先弄嘛不然的話台南這麼缺對不對捷運到現在六都當中就只有台南沒有捷運可不可以新型處理一下"},{"start":6465.771,"end":6479.875,"text":"是可以 已經可以進行但是問題就是1155年可能會受到你不用再重複你先有的先有先求有啦再求多啦好不好請主席長費心一下啦那另外一部分呢其實今天會產生這個問題還是會回到一個問題啦也就是說這有關於這個預算這個"},{"start":6486.56,"end":6506.602,"text":"編列的部分的失準我統計這五年當中失準的幅度一個是0.84一個是2.8相差蠻大主要是跟GDP的落差蠻多的這個落差的這種情況底下主要還是要放在這個稅計剩餘的部分嘛對不對除了法定的還債的部分是不是"},{"start":6507.082,"end":6528.083,"text":"一般如果今年有那個他收入超過預算數那這個部分他本來要舉債的部分他就優先會減少就不去舉債第二個再來就是所謂的債務還本他就會還本數或者會增加還本那再來就是會變成如果有特別預算的可以抵調"},{"start":6529.244,"end":6538.03,"text":"因為我們一般特別醫生都是取債就你現在講的數字啦我來跟你核對一下今年像中央超徵的這個3757億嘛對不對債務還本208億嘛是不是減少取債的部分是157億嘛對不對對157億嘛所以總共實際上剩下的是1978億嘛對不對"},{"start":6549.124,"end":6576.092,"text":"大概剩下一千不到兩千啦剩下一千六百多你更少 你的估計更少一千六百多所以說也不夠一人一萬啊對不對而且呢 去年喔超徵所謂全國五千多億的情況底下也不過是16%而已所以也不到今天的法案的內容20%嘛所以說實際上你還完之後也不到三千億嘛不如你是用定額跟定率其實都蠻困難的嘛是不是"},{"start":6576.892,"end":6601.321,"text":"所以一般大概一千六百多億他要經過審計部審定以後七月以後才會加入到累積剩餘還要編列預算才可以對還要用編列預算到稅積剩餘嘛那稅積剩餘來說之前我們稅積剩餘高達七千零百四十四億嘛一一二年底的時候到去年的時候剩下一百五十八億嘛那我想請教你稅積剩餘到底多少才合理啊"},{"start":6604.341,"end":6624.677,"text":"這個也不是說多少才合理稅計剩餘主要就是看當年度一個稅入稅出執行的情形如果剩餘再做累積啦我們並不會預估說一個哪一個多少還是看累積就是保留一個彈性啦比較好作用嘛你至少可以預估一下那如何避免未來啊"},{"start":6625.297,"end":6640.927,"text":"一個錯估的現象的出現齁我看你們報告當中所寫的其實主要是銀索稅、重索稅還有包括證交稅這三個大幅成長的結果嘛以至於錯估嘛這個部分是不是要請財政部來說對財政部好那我們請那個次長來次長請來次長請"},{"start":6654.347,"end":6671.045,"text":"主要你們寫的原因是營業稅、眾所稅還有證交稅大幅成長而錯估最主要是營所稅跟證交稅成長的負面營所稅造成證交稅增加是因為股利發放多所以會造成眾所稅增加證交稅大幅成長"},{"start":6673.227,"end":6689.985,"text":"證交稅之所以大幅成長主要是高科技產業嘛對不對對因為他權值比較重嘛對所以是不是你們將來在估計這些收入面的部分稅收的部分要考慮的不是整體的景氣分析而已還要包括一個特定產業的分析啊"},{"start":6690.405,"end":6712.027,"text":"是委員的意見非常好所以我們這一部分我們會加強來做好相關的預算的預測所以我們也成立這個相關的估測小組而且為外研究那另外我們也透過AI來處理希望將來的預測能夠那這個時候什麼時候會預估會上路你這麼多改革的方法什麼時候目前都已經上路了"},{"start":6712.267,"end":6741.506,"text":"都已經上路了那什麼時候以後就可以避免了嗎希望115年我們115年能夠有更就是更精準更精準的避免類似這些數字的產生以至於又發現金的口號出現我跟委員報告就是但是雖然是這樣但是因為我們編預算的時候還有很多的變數因為我們從編預算到實行的時候我知道那個當然就不在你掌握之內你事先能掌握超知在己的先行處理嘛"},{"start":6741.906,"end":6763.07,"text":"至少不要變有變數嘛 可不可以 市長市長對 你們從一百一十五年避免類似形式的產生的努力跟目標嘛好不好不要老是出現這種問題連續四年了咧 好不好最後我再問一下主席長 主席長我還是讓你看一下 零四零三的部分當初行政院復原重建的計畫高達兩百八十五億光光復興的時候高達十六億之多啦"},{"start":6765.831,"end":6789.503,"text":"然後同樣的這個政災的租金補貼的部分當初用政災基金會那現在是用這一個住宅基金啦那相對而言0102的時候就少了非常的多啦主委長在這個部分你有沒有什麼辦法可以為台南這個災情來多做一些努力雙重建然後然後復原能夠復興報告委員這個像那個我們農業方面有一關那個那個叫做那個"},{"start":6794.605,"end":6819.882,"text":"沒關係啦 主席坐一下啦你講那麼久 我以前也沒有這樣子今天要控制一下有需要的經費這個部分台南市也有提出來申請我們也全力在協助說這個部分有相關的一個有教育部的預算有農業部的預算有文化部的預算有課委會的預算等等這些你應該都優先處理才對啊是是是這沒有道理在公共建設當中有所延誤啦"},{"start":6820.242,"end":6836.369,"text":"所以我們很希望接下來行政院長下去的時候能夠帶實質的承諾下去然後在民間的部分的復興會員能夠加快腳步好不好這個部分他們會試劇去評估好 請主席長費先好謝謝謝謝瓜文的諮詢現在要請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢"},{"start":6853.493,"end":6863.582,"text":"好 主席 在場的委員先進列席了政府機關首長官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請主計是陳主計長 主計總書對不起 主計總書陳主計長抱歉喔 因為今天沒有請到審計部的審計長好 那麼"},{"start":6873.032,"end":6896.998,"text":"主席長好我先跟您請教一下我這個講的是預算依法撥補台電離島虧損競爭市場人才要調整新的結果來我們看第一張好總預算公佈了明年的總預算開始籌編了嗎已經在進行了進行籌編了嘛就是3月到4月之間嘛是不是我們中程計劃已經目前在進行我們很快的看下去好那麼有關於媒體報導在3月9號"},{"start":6899.076,"end":6915.482,"text":"本來去年度補貼邊在今年的預算要補貼台電的被刪了嘛是不是總預算被刪了嘛總預算前幾天總統也公佈了嘛那結果台電不得不電價審議委員會現在調漲電價但是呢又有一個新聞說3月要台電打算追討110億的離島補貼這是什麼東西下一頁"},{"start":6921.721,"end":6947.994,"text":"我們過去的離島用電虧損是不是都台電吸收是它都是由中央目的事業主管機關裡面來撥補是的就是離島建設條例第四條這是不是法定支出撥補離島供電的營運虧損是法定支出它不是屬於基金應該的支出也不是法定支出那這個條例第四條什麼意思是不是強制你要編列預算有沒有有沒有強制力"},{"start":6949.653,"end":6968.988,"text":"是而且去年的經濟委員會決議喔建請離島基金研議撥補財政的可行性喔法律也這樣寫了立法院審議預算也這樣說了請問主席總署在籌編明年度預算的時候有沒有想過要怎麼樣依法律的規定編列預算撥補"},{"start":6971.571,"end":6995.626,"text":"這個部分因為等於是說它還是有虧損啦虧損的部分是台電在吸收啦那這個部分如果說你沒有彌補它的話那它將來就是要要回歸到這我都知道但是我問的是您是主計總處啊是編列預算撥補這六個字編列預算撥補這六個字有沒有人要做誰要做誰該做"},{"start":6997.685,"end":7007.492,"text":"事實上一般如果不是的話就要由地方政府來吸收我沒有說不是什麼地方政府我現在講的就是離島的這個寫在法律嘛離島建設基金14條嘛建設條例14條嘛"},{"start":7010.627,"end":7032.37,"text":"目的事業主管機關要審核嘛然後呢政府要怎樣要編列預算撥補那編列預算是不是妳的全責之一是嘛所以就提醒妳開始要籌編了不管是經濟部編編在離島建設基金還是行政院主計總署要有想法了嘛是不是這樣是好所以說主計總署支持用基金來還是另編撥補台電"},{"start":7033.971,"end":7063.1,"text":"因為它不是基金所能夠負擔的一個項目基金現在剩不到10億它要1100億所以也不符合基金的用途所以這個部分我們一般原則上應該都是要透過總預算來做好那很清楚了要透過總預算如果必要的時候有沒有可能是用最佳減預算還是特別預算你們去評估好不好好我們現在看來現在我們都很被問到台灣現在跟美國一不一致一致"},{"start":7063.92,"end":7083.634,"text":"因為都把中國視為最大的對抗對象美國視中國不是對手,是對抗的對手,不是競爭的對手台灣視中國為境外敵對勢力所以美國川普喊話北約要增加他的軍費到GDP5%那明年我們國防制度的GDP佔比會不會提高,過去大概2.45%會提高嗎?"},{"start":7087.11,"end":7114.451,"text":"我們原則上是希望要把它提高很好來提高在哪個部分一般來講我們的軍會兩個部分一個是武器採購一個是人員維持往下看所以目前我們看到了國軍缺員嚴重邊線比不足從88掉到了78而且也宣布了4月1號開始總統宣布了軍人海巡有加薪大概調整後可能可以增加到13000到15000而且這裡面我看到的是"},{"start":7115.171,"end":7121.716,"text":"自願意的加擠調整之後呢基層的增加幅度多於中階的軍官多於將官你認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":7124.585,"end":7140.854,"text":"還是不評論?因為這個部分是屬於國防部的一個權責但是你不反對嗎?因為現在目前總統已經有宣布加薪所以我只針對這個加薪的部分你要去籌措預算嗎?好,那這樣會不會增加我們的GDP的占比?會嗎?也會好,但是我認為是不夠的往下看其實我們來看一下國軍是需要專業人才的"},{"start":7149.673,"end":7166.679,"text":"站航管加擠 電針加擠 網路站加擠請問你認為這些專業人才如果是在民間企業的行情因為你們這個主席總書負責統計啊你們有沒有統計過這三類的專業人才在民間的行情怎麼樣多少錢要不要月薪十萬"},{"start":7169.064,"end":7189.902,"text":"你們回去統計一下,了解一下,我認為都超過了但是我們看一看,現在這些人才我們看下一頁,治安人才緊接著在搶啊結果呢,警方的治安人才被搶走了啊兩百萬的年薪,你認為目前我們公共人員的制度,雖然你不是人種,有可能年薪兩百萬嗎?"},{"start":7192.176,"end":7212.118,"text":"很難嘛 那怎麼辦 怎麼求財 怎麼留財我們來看一下美軍怎麼做美軍是什麼 它是用PR89 PR90什麼意思 現在就業市場上最高的那10%就是我的薪資水準你覺得我們公務人員的待遇可以這樣定嗎"},{"start":7213.868,"end":7227.794,"text":"不是定 我們過去的過程是這樣子都是跟內部來比低階的人 初階的人要比中階的低中階的比高階的低新進人員一定比資深人員來的薪水低是不是這樣 美軍不跟你吃這一套啦"},{"start":7228.578,"end":7247.294,"text":"他是現在就業市場如果這個人現在市場行情是十萬我就用十萬挖管他是不是之前剛新進就算他進來之後他的關節比別人低他的資金比別人低前面的人可能是七萬元他要挖他進來是十萬元你覺得公務部門國軍這些必要的部門有沒有可能用這種方式"},{"start":7249.139,"end":7264.294,"text":"因為這個部分是人種他根據整個一個制度所以你土地的種族不會反對這種結構的調整吧我們原則上是尊重他整個的一個結構看他要怎麼去做調整是的 我問過人種所以人種這個結構在調整但是調整之後"},{"start":7267.469,"end":7285.484,"text":"他的總金額會提高所以這是主計總數要準備好的我舉一個例來講啦現在如果一個大學新進的新生是PR90你覺得校長說不行啊怎麼今年的新生PR90以前現在四年級大四的當年進來的時候還PR80會不會這樣想不會嘛"},{"start":7286.425,"end":7313.593,"text":"大學在招攬人才的時候認為我現在的薪生進來是PR越來越高比他早年的高這才是我們政府求財留財的方法往下看所以我們短期續薪它是以薪續職這個讓你參考這個問問人事總署再往下看所以接下來看到同樣的是要求財要留財我們也問過了財政部次長在這裡那天我問過了部長金控前十四大只有三家是所謂的犯公股"},{"start":7314.213,"end":7332.402,"text":"那如果是台土輸,台灣銀行、土地銀行跟輸出銀行是輸輸輸啊請問財政部提出的方案要提高待遇來爭取留財、徵財,你們支不支持?這個部分已經送到院裡頭裡面在討論的,這個部分那你們支持嗎?你們去籌措經費"},{"start":7336.693,"end":7365.396,"text":"是,人總也在研議中我問過人總了,沒有研議,他已經支持了我當面問過人總所以今天我一個一個問當了財政部的面前,我問主席長知不支持行政院如果要做這個,你知不支持人黨支持囉,你可以判因為這要看行政院的裁定啦,坦白說對,這是行政院的裁定,但是主席長不反對嘛來,我問一下,來,沈記長,總是要請到你沈記長,您知不支持,您反不反對"},{"start":7367.162,"end":7371.304,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7394.246,"end":7415.26,"text":"明年度的預算籌編怎麼樣撥補台點的離島虧損怎麼樣納入預算籌編可以嗎可以什麼時候可以讓我們委員會或本席知道因為我們原則上進入預算的籌編大部分都是四月底四月底前可以讓我們知道吧四月底前讓本席或本委員會知道可以嗎"},{"start":7416.239,"end":7436.397,"text":"4月底是有點太早,因為大概差不多6月底左右6月底都編好了啊6月底要定案6月就會明朗了但是台電的電價審議委員會4月底就會定案了這樣我們是不是要忍受我們希望說台電如果這個預算能夠撥補我們電價或許漲幅不會那麼嚴重"},{"start":7439.019,"end":7459.677,"text":"所以可不可以你們可以提早釋出讓台電心裡有個底他這一億一千億有可能會落袋他才在電疫審議的時候能納入考量可以嗎你不讓我知道要讓台電知道啊我們一直都是支持台電要因為他這是補充你是支持但是你要變成你的法定職權來展示啊"},{"start":7460.377,"end":7484.593,"text":"他不能吭著你口頭的支持來審議電價我都知道現在我的意思說電價審議不能只是看今天的影片你的口頭支持他必須看到行政院有依法定去進行預算的籌編可不可以好還有兩個主席站起來另外希望你們會同國防部跟人總這當然你們是比較輔助的角色對於我們如果調整薪資結構"},{"start":7486.054,"end":7513.977,"text":"仿照美軍的PR-90的概念打破過去傳統資深優於資淺高階優於低階其實在我們這次國軍的待遇的調升已經看到了將官調得少衛官基層軍官調得多這就是一個好的方向去研議調整這樣的結構配合他們去做可以嗎我們尊重人種制度的一個調整還有國防部還有您也支持我們國營金融機構的員工待遇改善方案是不是"},{"start":7514.457,"end":7519.798,"text":"原則是好謝謝謝謝因為當年這個限制是國民黨立委限制的謝謝我們都支持謝謝蔡委員的質詢 下面請賴委員質詢賴委員質詢完畢以後我們休息十分鐘好謝謝主席我們有請主席長"},{"start":7547.984,"end":7565.103,"text":"委員好 主席長 午安 早安 早安先跟主席長致意 也跟你致敬你在上週的花蓮的演講 真的實在是令人感動 非常謝謝"},{"start":7566.565,"end":7582.336,"text":"我想這個不管算帳還是總預算還是做那個調查的一個統計這些基本功其實都是整個政府運作的一個核心的一個基礎那如果沒有這一些的話其實我們也沒有辦法"},{"start":7583.157,"end":7606.176,"text":"那個就是付公務人員的薪水也沒有辦法辦各種的一個業務那更不要講說基礎的一個建設其實如果沒有妥定的一個制定就是很好的一個政策其實我們這個國家會陷入在一個困境裡頭所以我想在野檔的二三預算其實大家都苦不堪言"},{"start":7606.877,"end":7621.526,"text":"那在上個星期五3月21號賴總統已經正式宣布了今年度被在野黨亂山亂動的一個總預算總統就是已經下令了那我們在這裡看到就是從114年度"},{"start":7623.687,"end":7651.794,"text":"我們的預算案 法定預算這個是那個空白 追加預算案也是空白那現在我要請教你就是說從去年開始9月開業以後在野黨就一直在阻礙這個總預算的一個通過其實到了上個月2月19號才終於把這個案子送出來竹記長 我想我們現在看到了你的官網裡頭你的法定預算還是空白的 就是說"},{"start":7653.59,"end":7668.458,"text":"是不是因為這一次的三途通過的一個總預算在刪減的一個科目跟金額上面有很多的一個問題所以你沒有辦法把這個法定的預算把它就是很明顯的就是寫上去是不是這樣的一個困難"},{"start":7669.862,"end":7691.947,"text":"因為現在目前碰到的困難就是說他要我們通案刪減一個636億的這個部分我們會有困難那這個困難我們還是要跟立法院來做一個說明希望立法院能夠支持這個部分看是要怎麼樣來處理能夠進行協商是這樣子所以你提出來了嗎"},{"start":7693.717,"end":7708.782,"text":"我們目前正在研議當中我們也很快會提出來那另外我們也會針對就是說部分單位他被刪減的很厲害就是刪減到0或者是實際上運作有困難的這個部分"},{"start":7709.222,"end":7718.837,"text":"水電匯付不出來這一些部分我們先優先的要來申請動之第二預備金所以主席講妳的帳已經兌上來了嗎就是被刪減的跟妳自己的帳有沒有兌上來了"},{"start":7724.963,"end":7739.859,"text":"目前就是這個部分我們還是在對上還是有一些的疑議啦這個部分所以我們也會是希望說這個部分將來譬如說我們達成協調以後要用什麼樣數字來刪減或者是說要用什麼數字來做一個宣佈"},{"start":7748.486,"end":7762.432,"text":"所以就是說在野黨胡亂的就是三讀造成審查後說出的一個數額這個有很大的一個爭議那未能易解那就像我們非常清楚就是說照這一次三讀內容的一個"},{"start":7763.392,"end":7778.323,"text":"計算的話我們他是刪減就是要刪減2076億喔可是主計總署你詳細校對了以後發現需要確確的一個科目刪除的金額其實只要1439億那這兩筆兩筆錢差了636億元那這樣子的話在野黨也沒有非常明確的說他要刪什麼科目"},{"start":7789.091,"end":7796.11,"text":"反過來要行政院自行調整三減數這個完全會三而三那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7797.699,"end":7824.152,"text":"所以這個部分我們就是刪減有困難那第二個這個刪讀內容這個部分要刪減2076億元的部分是有部分的單位預算他刪減數超過預算數超過7000多萬那所以這個部分就是會比較有問題那這個部分我們會照他就是說他的預算數來刪所以數字跟宣布的部分數字是會有出入那另外一個就是636億的部分沒有辦法刪"},{"start":7826.773,"end":7852.222,"text":"而且等於說如果說要刪了要追加預算也要符合追加預算一個一個所定的一個原則它有四項的一個條件所以這個部分我們也是在努力中好努力中這個要非常的努力因為這個在野黨三這個二三這個預算我們很明確看得出來就是說其實是在阿扁時代的時候有一個就是中"},{"start":7853.122,"end":7867.148,"text":"總預算的法定預算稅出跟這個我們的那個三減數這個大家看到了一個就是在那個阿扁時代這個大概是5.04那就是馬英九時代"},{"start":7868.969,"end":7884.201,"text":"2012年的時候它其實是刪減的額度非常少只刪了0.02%那一樣就是說就算同樣都是超小也大這個阿扁時代的時候你看它刪減的比例最高也是在2002年也不過刪了5%"},{"start":7888.084,"end":7909.735,"text":"那這一次這麼嚴重刪了6.63%啦所以我想這個其實是在破壞了整個中央的一個運作我們看得非常的一個清楚那所有刪減凍結其實集中在特定的一個機關的業務會那我們看到了就是監察院還有不斷單場處理委員會行政院還有總統府"},{"start":7910.956,"end":7930.941,"text":"甚至我們看到了最離譜的就是一個就是內政部那個國土署他有一個在細指的那個白富的社會住宅這一個規劃叫1.2億結果把它刪掉那個變成超過了就是超過了他的預算數超刪了多了300萬這個實在是非常非常的離譜"},{"start":7939.503,"end":7957.991,"text":"甚至就是說在監察院裡頭在監察院這個被刪了我覺得這個在野黨他這個其實是在圖利監察院他除了領薪水以外他叫他們什麼事都不要做所以這麼奇怪的一個刪預算的一個方式實在是非常的誇張"},{"start":7960.333,"end":7969.243,"text":"這個主席長我想在這裡啦我覺得就是說也是要跟你共同的去再做一個探討就是說一算三成這個樣子你會不會擔心"},{"start":7973.493,"end":7989.502,"text":"我們是盡力來做協調盡力來把問題解決因為像監察院一直跟我們說他水電會付不出來那那個台電公司要求他還要寫還款的一個協議所以這個部分我們也是希望說能夠儘早把問題解決"},{"start":7991.663,"end":8018.121,"text":"這個是非常嚴重的你看凍結總預算比那個三年前平均增加了九倍這個非常嚴重會影響很多的招標案跟補助案我們看到了就是說在這個最低工資的審議案其實他也受到影響了本來是午夜要辦的人力應用調查可是或許他也會因為就是說這一波的一個那個凍結預算讓主計總處的人力調查"},{"start":8021.983,"end":8025.586,"text":"那未來行政院有可能就是有什麼比較好的那個救濟的一個措施還是因應的作為嗎"},{"start":8037.678,"end":8055.391,"text":"是那我們現在就是說針對那個剛剛就是說如果被凍結那個條件的部分我們是希望說能夠先送到立法院來然後跟立法院來進行協調先針對凍結的部分能夠進行解凍那刪減的部分我們是希望說"},{"start":8056.512,"end":8077.192,"text":"因為他有一部分是三減到零這個部分我們先動二倍金然後跟立法院來報告先動二倍金對報告說請動二倍金來先支援到六月那然後等到我們辦追加減預算這個條件這個部分是不是能夠先協調說大概我三減的如果說我要照他"},{"start":8078.592,"end":8103.953,"text":"總數來三減希望將來能夠這三減數能夠恢復以上的一個說明好 主席長我想這個總統也把那個在上個禮拜五也一併的這個財化法也一併的公告了這個財化法其實這個對掏空中央弱化地方的財政這個我們看得非常清楚他就讓地方政府變成是一個媽寶其實我們看到了就是說"},{"start":8105.234,"end":8129.786,"text":"最多的一個補助的一個比例是在離島跟那個比例喔是在花東跟離島啦那這一次的修法其實有兩大的一個問題我們都非常地一個清楚了那地方要到錢不一定做對的事其實有時候我們反而覺得就是這個財化法是在陷害地方政府這些縣市長反而就是說"},{"start":8131.587,"end":8147.859,"text":"會是一個陷阱那如何因應就是越糟糕的一個財化法這一次這個財化法我們看得非常清楚就是重北侵難 非常的惡劣如果要搭配補助款來通盤檢討跟分配"},{"start":8148.76,"end":8164.445,"text":"那應該是一定要這樣做 必要的話甚至要調整整個補助補助款的一個公式我想在這裡我要替所有的一個農業的一個縣市來講像其實以我們台南來講的話"},{"start":8166.005,"end":8189.476,"text":"因為我們台南來講的話其實我們拿到了150億結果我們的地下鐵就需要的是中央的補助款是256億現在中央告訴我們說他只能補助我們五成而已所以我想這個都是非常嚴重的一個問題那請那個主計長就是說也請你們加油啦請加油謝謝主席好 謝謝賴教委的諮詢"},{"start":8193.561,"end":8201.205,"text":"我們本來要休息了 不過李英雄已經到了就是你執行完了 我們確定休息好不好請李委員執行 請感謝昭偉 我不贊助 我不會延長時間那我是不是就請財政部的阮政次還有財政部的阮政次以及我們的主計長主計長你先坐下喝水 等一下第二個問題再輪到你主計長先去休息一下 喝個水"},{"start":8227.176,"end":8240.747,"text":"上個會期我們在立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案有共識的法案就是打詐專法但是打詐專法的案件跟金額我關注到從打詐儀表板裡面從3月16號到3月22號"},{"start":8245.211,"end":8247.612,"text":"我們的詐騙的案件數仍舊有3917件被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億這是光光一個禮拜左右的時間在3月16號到3月22號"},{"start":8260.399,"end":8287.477,"text":"在1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億雖然我有關注到一個數字比較去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億現在可能透過我們修法的努力也好或者是我們的基層員警還有大家接受到有可能被詐騙的訊息現在每天平均可能只有2億"},{"start":8288.698,"end":8313.222,"text":"但是這次每天全國被詐騙兩億這個數字每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢我常常在基層跑的時候有一些民眾跟我講說我都不敢跟我家人講但我被詐騙了多少錢有沒有機會追得回來其實有時候我知道困難度非常高但他們非常痛苦"},{"start":8313.562,"end":8324.99,"text":"也就是說我們要感受到人民的痛苦這件事情我覺得在打造這件事情我們似乎政府還應該做得更多我說到這邊你同意嗎"},{"start":8326.615,"end":8349.723,"text":"跟委員報告事實上打詐這一部分我們對公股也好或者供應市也好我們這個是我們督導的重點對但是我們似乎可以做的更多我們不是似乎我們應該要做的更多如果說1月份還有95億2月份時間比較短有60億平均每天我們還有2億被詐騙"},{"start":8351.909,"end":8379.198,"text":"我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行 台銀"},{"start":8381.957,"end":8405.227,"text":"我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢而且根據台銀內部我們也有洗錢防治法的示警機制但是我們最後是查到就是查證人員跟主管認為該行員同署同一個分行就沒有積極查證"},{"start":8407.987,"end":8423.797,"text":"我們自己政府官員公股銀行做出這樣的事情我們有相關的市井機制但是卻發生這樣的事情這件事情要不要為全國要不要為台銀這件事情跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":8425.028,"end":8451.377,"text":"跟委員包括這個事情發生這發生在台銀的台銀是公股銀行它應該是所有公股銀行的表率在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面台銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位我應該這麼說譬如說在美國美國銀行是大家可以最信任的單位在台灣銀行是公股銀行的表率是"},{"start":8452.578,"end":8468.436,"text":"照理說應該做模範,但是卻發生這樣的事情,你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉?我跟委員報告,發生這種事情我們真的是非常遺憾因為他這個內部的相關的同仁除了遺憾之外,應不應該道歉?"},{"start":8472.13,"end":8496.929,"text":"我是覺得是這樣子因為這兩個同仁我們現在都已經提起公訴而且都已經免職了那麼相關的督導的他們當然有司法的問題但是如果身為台灣銀行我們公股銀行第一表率我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話我們監理的機制內控的機制都這麼糟糕我們如何管理其他的公股銀行甚至是民間的銀行"},{"start":8498.904,"end":8516.937,"text":"所以你到現在還不敢說出我們應該對民眾道歉我們未來會加強管理你只有遺憾兩個字我心裡會覺得非常難過因為每一塊錢我剛剛已經講了都是人民的血汗錢所以你不能道歉這件事情我個人是覺得我更覺得遺憾我也非常的詫異那我就要請問就是說除了檢訟司法之外就是對於這一個個案"},{"start":8528.405,"end":8545.141,"text":"但是我們財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作把加強後續的內控機制做得更好譬如說我要請問鄭次我們現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任我們有沒有打詐主管"},{"start":8545.882,"end":8558.637,"text":"打詐的主管基本上他是按照他的權責就是說有沒有打詐主管這件事你就直接回答有做沒有好有好有那他是專任還是簽任"},{"start":8561.151,"end":8575.945,"text":"這個他不可能是專任的因為他為什麼因為他一個分行裡面那我就要說我的看法想法我不知道你為什麼說不能專任但是對於無論洗錢防治法也好或者是專任的打擊詐騙內部做的內部監"},{"start":8579.188,"end":8607.99,"text":"監控的控管這個是需要高度的關注兼任這件事情我有時間我才可以走我沒時間我要把我的本份業務做好本份業務沒做好我會拖累到整個銀行的整個系統SOP 標準SOP所以就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制所以是不是才會有台銀這個事情發生我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈但是我今天在這邊質詢我就透過我的質詢提醒你"},{"start":8609.212,"end":8615.867,"text":"專任跟兼任在去做打詐主管這件事情對於銀行的內控機制的管理"},{"start":8617.754,"end":8641.485,"text":"是有程度上的差異能不能做得更好就是有程度上的差異所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做是在人為看你有沒有決心當台灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管找出一個打詐主管是專任的我相信未來整個內控的機制管理監理都一定會做得更好我跟委員報告就是基本上這個案子未發生基本上是發生"},{"start":8642.385,"end":8669.979,"text":"到第一道防線因為我今天時間不多因為我還要問主席長但是我只提醒你怎麼樣做得更好我只提醒你工具跟方法但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做兼任的能不能做得更好或者是專任的才可以把事情做好我提醒你因為臺灣銀行發生這個事情全國都在看如果臺灣銀行內控沒做好你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行"},{"start":8670.759,"end":8673.461,"text":"主席,臺灣的通膨已經連續三年超過二我們通常跟央行主管跟您之前討論,超過二就開始人民對於通膨的感受度是非常明顯的"},{"start":8697.256,"end":8723.89,"text":"但是台灣已經過去連續三年通膨已經達到警戒線甚至都超過二那我們現在碰到幾個當然非常大的挑戰國際的問題關稅的問題匯率的操作這都是匯之數好那我看到你二月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94我要請問主計長這個1.94有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅還有包括我們店家的漲幅"},{"start":8725.962,"end":8755.089,"text":"然後民生用電也會漲到11%工業用電可能漲到6%當然這都還不一定但是這個1.94有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量沒有這目前是沒有沒有的好那如果今年我不知道最後會漲多少那我們通膨會有沒有可能再上修如果4月份公佈調漲之後你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本我們最後通膨會上修大概多少"},{"start":8756.187,"end":8774.817,"text":"如果有店會有調整的話那這個部分我們大概會做一些上修啦我當然知道你一定會上修因為那個數字是很輕你當然要計算但是主計長你應該會有幾個版本你會去建議跟行政院長 卓院長溝通說欸 調漲5% 6% 8% 11%大概排骨飯未來會多少會漲到多少 芋頭飯會多少早餐一個三明治會漲多少你應該有跟他講吧"},{"start":8784.202,"end":8800.29,"text":"我們主計處不是加減數字我們應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官看嘛不是 因為這個部分我們主要是我們的評估我們會把評估結果送給院長你有送就對了你有提醒他們就對了有送好幾個版本有送幾個版本但是我們沒有針對台電這個我們還沒有去把還沒有對"},{"start":8805.633,"end":8816.76,"text":"主席講這個事情很大條我的意思是說你應該去告訴他漲5%那整個通膨是多少7%是多少 11%你們應該有這個版本才對如果到現在還沒做這個版本非常訝異台電要不要漲現在還沒有做確定"},{"start":8822.884,"end":8847.924,"text":"我們必須等到他漲了確定之後那漲了就來不及啦 漲了就來不及主席講 我再提醒一件事情我再用最後30秒因為我去年問你說我們現在受雇員工的經常性薪資已經是連續三年的負成長好不容易今年調整變成正成長變0.58%所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話那"},{"start":8850.727,"end":8865.397,"text":"我們今年是不是經常性的薪資 實質薪資都能夠維持正成長或甚至變回負責這是去年啦 但今年到底狀況你今年還能維持正成長好 謝謝好 謝謝李文的質詢 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":8902.884,"end":8904.03,"text":"走吧走吧"},{"start":8948.029,"end":8955.175,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":8984.551,"end":8984.571,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":9025.808,"end":9032.692,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":9043.039,"end":9057.81,"text":"後面一家家伙上來打牌這家伙是一家家伙這家是一家家伙"},{"start":9068.937,"end":9068.957,"text":"鋼琴"},{"start":9089.191,"end":9114.403,"text":"所以還有7個,那是8分鐘嗎?10分鐘10分鐘,哦,好,加20分所以7個,這樣,這裡,然後呢,就要點20,然後上上下下,拌拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,然後拌,"},{"start":9118.423,"end":9119.965,"text":"差不多四年次"},{"start":9142.366,"end":9143.047,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":9169.442,"end":9171.643,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":9204.219,"end":9204.239,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":9234.564,"end":9234.604,"text":"哦哦"},{"start":9299.662,"end":9300.804,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":9327.959,"end":9328.799,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳"},{"start":9364.039,"end":9364.82,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9392.714,"end":9392.834,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9422.676,"end":9425.437,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":9463.643,"end":9493.302,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9532.718,"end":9535.24,"text":"這個要我報告我們現在已經臨時領文資訊卿"},{"start":9546.533,"end":9549.66,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請這個陳主委長好 陳主委長請"},{"start":9555.786,"end":9571.693,"text":"委員長好 主委長您在這個2月26號我們主席總署發布國內的經濟預測表示因為立法院刪減預算所以會這個削弱成長動能因而下修今年的經濟成長率是3.14%教育測數減少0.15%"},{"start":9579.456,"end":9596.352,"text":"這樣真的是如此嗎局長來我讓你看那個我們這個PPT啦局長你可以看到幾乎所有的單位在院會被巡視都表示今年度的預算都有增加我們看國防部增加400多億"},{"start":9597.153,"end":9607.557,"text":"教育部增加300億內政部增加400億交通部增加389億農業部增加83.2億衛福部增加306億國科會增加132億科爾會增加也增加了4億主席長你說這個增加這麼多啊"},{"start":9618.982,"end":9636.431,"text":"總預算數的總額高達兩兆九千兩百四十八億也比一百一十三年度多了一千三百六十八億整個中央政府的總預算比去年度增加了百分之二點五六你說對不對"},{"start":9638.535,"end":9658.049,"text":"這個數據對不對報告委員因為增加的項目是增加2,806億那主要是增加公共建設對健保的一個補助還有一些調薪這些等等但是三檢的部分是三檢集中在部分的機關還有業務費所以這樣才會有執行困難就是你這個我剛才提的數據都對嗎是"},{"start":9663.032,"end":9669.379,"text":"所以說您對外界說是因為立法院刪減預算所以下修今年的經濟成長率"},{"start":9673.173,"end":9694.037,"text":"這個部分我也跟委員在說明他主要有幾點的一個因素影響第一個他前面的基數就已經很高了他又提高因為本來我們預估是比較少再又提高所以他今年我們的增減會減少那第二個預算也有一點點有影響雖然影響沒有但是也有影響預算也有影響就是以前面積極高"},{"start":9696.678,"end":9697.859,"text":"因為你這樣的說法跟央行總裁的講法完全背道而馳"},{"start":9717.231,"end":9733.506,"text":"央行他在這個下修今年的成長率他的專業評估是因為川普這個上任對經濟充滿不確定政策充滿不確定性川普將科對等關稅恐將衝擊出口"},{"start":9736.388,"end":9765.358,"text":"台積電擴大赴美設廠恐衝擊國內的投資所以才下修經濟成長率跟你講的什麼總預算什麼三減會影響所謂的這個經濟的成長率完全背道而馳啊你這個說法不是很外行嗎主席長你身為我們中華民國的這個整個預算的一個這個主計啊你講這樣子下修成長率跟預算算數有關"},{"start":9767.409,"end":9779.938,"text":"是有關的但是我要跟委員報告因為川普的這個因素目前一直還不確定中所以這個因素一直還沒有放到評估裡面去這個才是最大的因素跟你講說什麼跟這個預算總預算的三減有關"},{"start":9798.03,"end":9823.452,"text":"聽起來很外行你講這個話另外有關今天我們討論預算法的修正那主席總書在3月7號你對外指出說收支剩餘應優先用於償債或留工未來重大的正式支出應考量保留政策彈性普發現金不宜常態性來辦理你這個說法我今天告訴你你根本是在凸顯行政院"},{"start":9824.513,"end":9832.521,"text":"這幾年撥補台電的不適宜啦主席長你知道說過去我們編列多少次的預算補助台電嗎"},{"start":9834.475,"end":9856.411,"text":"目前補助三千億總額是三千億 總共幾次 我告訴你三次所以我們知道台電到今年二月它已經連續三年的大虧損累計的虧損高達四千兩百二十九億主要的原因就是依照童子賢先生講的"},{"start":9858.172,"end":9868.278,"text":"就是因為錯誤的能源政策以及整個能源採購與經營的效益不彰而下個月台電又要再次調漲電價預計四月份我們的民生電價要漲11%"},{"start":9874.602,"end":9898.271,"text":"產業的電價漲5%這將衝擊到1450萬戶產業民生的影響所有的電價全調這也是我們四年來第五次的漲價因此照這樣的延續的補助台電是否也可以認定是常態性的辦理一直補助台電這是常態性的辦理嗎"},{"start":9900.121,"end":9921.39,"text":"其實不是常態性的辦理但是主要是因為他對於民生的電價他沒有漲所以這個部分呢就高達有2800億左右那這個部分我們主要是彌補他這個不叫常態性的辦理喔這每年在家虧損就一直補助他用政府編列預算來補助他你說這不是常態性的"},{"start":9921.87,"end":9944.31,"text":"以國外的一個例子來看 他調整的一個調整的電價調得更高所以這樣子的話民生更沒辦法承受所以這個部分我們在調節的部分你現在是說補助的問題 現在一直補助他每年他有虧損 我們政府就要編列預算來補助他像你今年你要編一千億的公務預算"},{"start":9945.131,"end":9970.81,"text":"都是用政府編列預算來補助所以這樣的補助的方式未來只要台電有虧損我們就要補助這不是叫常態性嗎不是這個部分主要是他有配合行政院針對政策性的讓他民生電價不要漲價這個部分來做彌補所以這個部分才叫做才補貼這個部分這樣啦 這個組長我問你啊對於台電的一個撥補啊這個屬不屬於我們的常債"},{"start":9974.318,"end":10002.175,"text":"這不是常債這不是常債嘛對啊所以不是常債那我們現在講我們超徵稅收要來這個還稅於民你說台電可以用我們上一次也有用我們超徵的稅收來補助他嗎所以你說這不是這個常態嗎那請問你那我們這一次把我們這個要求說把我們超徵的稅收來還稅於民這個是常態嗎"},{"start":10003.581,"end":10013.37,"text":"因為他如果變在余政法裡面他就會變成常態所以你要把超徵的稅收我們把要求還稅於民這是OK的啊"},{"start":10014.335,"end":10033.339,"text":"這跟補助台電的道理是一樣的啊因為一般我們有剩餘是透過在政策上一個表達所以我們會先進到一個累積剩餘的一個累積然後再編列預算來做政策性的一個我看你的報告說今年扣除所有的債務還本我們大概還有1581億"},{"start":10038.26,"end":10045.307,"text":"所以這1581億難道不可以來還稅漁民嗎這你完全扣除所有的債務了"},{"start":10046.616,"end":10071.812,"text":"因為裡面我們如果說要把它放在115年我們也或者是追加我們也必須要等到7月審計部審定以後我們才可以來做這個我們了解但是你的政策方向要很明確告訴我們說這個是可以的而不是說這個不能常態這樣不能常態化這個就講的就讓我們覺得很奇怪實際上這是可行的"},{"start":10072.692,"end":10093.239,"text":"當初發放現金重點是經濟成長不好然後第二個是因為疫後疫後我們為了要刺激經濟讓它能夠有復甦所以我們才會做一個這樣因為卓院長在3月6號的院會備詢的時候他表示會往在野黨所提撲發現金的方向走"},{"start":10094.139,"end":10112.592,"text":"但是今天主席總書的報告 包含您剛才的一個詢答 您是對此不表認同啊所以主席長 我們主席總書是反對卓院長 他所這個詢答的時候 他所表示的方向嗎我們是對一定在法條裡面 我們是不支持是這樣的一個意思"},{"start":10113.072,"end":10140.621,"text":"是說你如果支持了以後這個部分定在法條以後將來就是變成他沒有彈性那沒有彈性的話執行的時候就會比較針對其他的一個政務的影響就會蠻大另外我想剩一點點時間問你您的報告說稅收時增超過預算數是屬估計誤差請問你是這個所謂的估計誤差是怎樣子的一個估計誤差"},{"start":10141.781,"end":10149.208,"text":"這個部分可能是財政部要說明的部分不屬於妳的對 因為稅務的估計是屬於財政部的業務是財政部來說明財政部每年都這樣一直超增所謂的講說是估計誤差那過去主計總署都沒有發覺這樣離譜的誤差的稅收預估狀況嗎"},{"start":10167.864,"end":10181.05,"text":"我們114年就把它這個修正了所以我們114年的一個稅率也大幅的增加這樣財政部這樣一直說超徵有沒有這個會估計估計會有這麼大的誤差總共10年喔10年來都超徵啊這樣是不是破壞財政距離這樣會不會破壞財政距離啊"},{"start":10189.233,"end":10212.978,"text":"這本身這個114年預算的稅務我們就已經有做修正了這個部分所以你這樣忽視財政部這樣離譜的預算編列能力與誤差主計總部是否有你你是否有失職我們今年已經有經營請他修正了所以今年的一個稅務又有大幅的一個修正謝謝好以上好謝謝好謝謝那個"},{"start":10218.632,"end":10219.853,"text":"主席 主席長 請主席長請"},{"start":10238.081,"end":10262.799,"text":"主席長我個人一向很尊敬您我也是尊敬您我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性我內心表達非常敬重但是我昨天 還是昨天 前兩天看到新聞看到說您有一個 您上了一個節目還是上了一個宣講的場合參加一個大罷免的活動 對吧 有吧"},{"start":10263.939,"end":10290.979,"text":"我不是參加大罷免活動我是在宣講政策是宣講喔我覺得我看著你我看你一上台就拿著稿開始唸吧我不知道你唸的那句話是就應該是人家寫給你的吧照稿讀啊那我心裡覺得很難過啊就覺得好像是被人家拿一個東西叫你唸前面那一段啊前面那一段啊說什麼你是怎樣是怎樣我覺得我心裡很感慨啦因為我覺得到底你是去宣講呢還是去亂講啊"},{"start":10292.287,"end":10317.639,"text":"我主要是在講台中文化法修正的一個困境你身為主計長我對我們的行政官員事實上都一向很尊重那我們這些行政官員尤其是政務官應該要保持一定的高度在我來看都當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置而且是讓人家敬重的那至少你要去宣講政策當然是行政院要求要去宣講政策職責所在那宣講的內容也應該照這個"},{"start":10320.06,"end":10339.756,"text":"比較 我們來看一下妳說了什麼嘛那妳知道去參加以前 妳知道這是民進黨在做這個全台大罷免一個造勢的場合嗎不是 因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的一個場合所以妳認為這個是很適合出現的嗎主計官隊來講 各地的主權都很中立的角色啊"},{"start":10341.098,"end":10361.746,"text":"你覺得你適合參加嗎所以你不知道他是罷免的場合就對了因為他們在那邊講罷免啊有人上去演啊 罷免啊重點是宣導政策所以你認為你是去宣導政策不是說去講反罷免這個事對 我一向也沒有這樣子你沒有這樣的想法所以你身為主席連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了"},{"start":10362.605,"end":10390.063,"text":"不是沒有 而是認為說我不是這樣子我們來看一下你現場提供的資料好不好我們來看你提供的資料正不正確你宣講的有沒有像你看這個你現場提供的三立的報導金省前跟金省後這你在《人民是土家》的政策宣講講原來金省前28歐財化法的這是財化法這個稅率劃分情形之前是28.9 直轄三縣市台灣省政府是11嘛中央政府是60.1嘛那金省後"},{"start":10390.883,"end":10412.318,"text":"這個您提供24.6% 省政委的部分是11% 中央政委的部分是64.4%這個是你做的表沒錯吧 是那這個表裡頭 我想請問你你做這個表的意思是說 經審前跟經審後 因為你看71.1%跟75.4%所以增加只有 中央只有增加4%的意思是嗎"},{"start":10413.343,"end":10441.061,"text":"我的意思是說這個部分必須考量原來台灣省政府的業務的部分當初我們中央是有承接雖然收入有承接但是支出同樣有承接這是講收入我先討論收入的部分我知道支出當然也有承接所以你做的這個表把這個畫起來左邊是71.1右邊是75.4那意思是說中央只增加了4點多的收入是嗎"},{"start":10442.281,"end":10469.091,"text":"對中央就是說等於說地方他減少了4點多的一個收入就經審後地方只有減少4點多嘛對所以在你這個表格裡頭省政府是屬於中央嘛對不對因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到在你這個表格因為我們說左邊經審前啦在你的裡頭省政府也算中央的是是嗎好下一頁來中華民國憲法第108條省政府是中央海地方"},{"start":10471.308,"end":10486.706,"text":"按照憲法規範你身為中華民國主席長中華民國憲法第108條中央是中央地方業務包括什麼省市省政府縣市政府所以你這個表格是我覺得是意圖在這個誤導民眾啊"},{"start":10489.602,"end":10502.962,"text":"我是針對整個一個稅務裁員你用這個表格我知道但是我知道你把那弄很清楚但你把它弄成71.1好像是只有增加4%地方減少那麼少地方好像只減少4%但事實上就是不是這樣子"},{"start":10504.687,"end":10531.149,"text":"你這個誇號 你用這個誇號 像精神前中央只增加不到5%然後你把精神前省也算成中央 這個是在欺騙百姓啊因為你是行政官員 你當初宣誓的時候是宣誓是按照中華民國憲法宣誓 要遵守憲法所以在百姓宣導證的時候 你必須要合憲合法你現在馬上到旁邊的幕僚把他給我翻中華民國憲法第108條 省算是中央海地方"},{"start":10532.496,"end":10557.718,"text":"因為經省以後他的業務是移到中央來辦理沒錯嘛 那錢也是移過來嘛所以地方的錢是變少嘛地方的錢也變少嘛 沒錯嘛我的意思是說 你要講說因為財務法我是主審的 我非常了解你要說地方的中央事情變多 錢變多 事情也變多那現在如果財務法要這樣畫那我們也必須要把這個一些事權下放"},{"start":10558.338,"end":10578.758,"text":"這點我都同意我也都尊重所以我在這裡也一直在講說那內政部提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊交通部經濟部各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情既然前面財化法分給地方那地方多做一點把事權劃出來啊我請各個部會提出相關的修法這個是各個部會應該提出他們沒做嘛"},{"start":10579.438,"end":10600.605,"text":"對不對 他們必須這樣做嘛 那你們主計處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本是你們一直不願意提出版本嘛 我們苦等再等 一等再等從六月份等到九月份 再從九月份等到十二月份 都沒有 我們就只好修法嘛我們不是不願意說等你們有版本吧"},{"start":10601.405,"end":10610.536,"text":"那因為可是我是在說當你身為一個政務官下鄉去宣講的時候你要講正確的觀念啊比如說你連省是中央還是地方你都搞不清楚嘛"},{"start":10611.482,"end":10635.11,"text":"你身為一個中華民國的主計長連中華民國憲法的明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚嘛你說我有沒有說錯啊我現在是在談業務的部分對對對 沒有啦你要宣講你要給百姓正確的觀念嘛但是你要給百姓正確的觀念嘛是 謝謝不然你連中華民國憲法都不了解你還是依照中華民國憲法宣示的主計長啊那我再請教你所以我請說您宣講的時候準備材料的時候我寧願喔 站在我的立場"},{"start":10640.692,"end":10654.226,"text":"以我對你的尊敬我寧願相信你是被誤導啦我真的是寧願這樣相信啊好 那請教齁現在那個我們以前一直有提到一個什麼就是地方的這個自籌款跟那個中央的這種"},{"start":10655.649,"end":10670.297,"text":"就在補助的時候一些款項比例就像財力分級的自籌款的比例 對吧有分一級 二級 三級 四級 五級每一級有不同的規定比如說台北市第一級 連江第五級自籌款比例會不一樣 沒錯吧對 因為整個財源改變請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%"},{"start":10678.001,"end":10707.21,"text":"哪一個等級這個部分目前沒有現在正在研議當中沒有現在沒有嘛對不對沒有嘛齁那為什麼金門縣政府收到這個有部會的這個公文說這個補助款下去地方請地方自籌50%這個依法有據嗎我們整個目前正在檢討當中對你在檢討還沒有下公文嘛對不對還沒有你還在檢討但是有部會喔已經提出這樣的公文給地方政府喔說下去你們的這個自籌款要準備50%喔這個是依法有據的公文嗎"},{"start":10708.943,"end":10718.627,"text":"還是在恐嚇地方的公文啊沒有嘛 還沒有這樣規定出來對不對我們主計總署是沒有下這個公文對 我不是說你主計總署我知道 我相信主計總署會依法辦事雖然你沒有熟讀那個憲法不了解這個也被誤導 好不好我就認為你被誤導我在地方聽到這個齁我們基本原來第三級嘛要負擔三成啦 約三成啦"},{"start":10731.531,"end":10753.753,"text":"現在有部會要求到第五層有要求到五層請你 確實沒有這件事情對不對確實也沒有這個要求對不對目前是我們沒有做這樣的要求你們自己沒有 你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做沒有沒有嘛 如果真的沒有要對外澄清不然請你要詢問給各個部會啊他們怎麼可以不依法行政啊現在中央單位都可以亂套喔"},{"start":10755.194,"end":10782.966,"text":"想要發文說五成就五成 想要給地方說你七成就七成 可以這樣子嗎但是院長在院會裡面 補助都是要依法行政啊院長在院會裡面有說明說補助款的部分先行凍結50%我說的是自籌款的部分嘛所有東西要依法行政嘛補助先凍結50%是有做這樣的一個說法我說的不是現在的 我說的是比如說你有個計畫上來嘛 對不對你本來是7比3嘛 你現在竟然要求人家50嘛"},{"start":10784.207,"end":10796.003,"text":"這是不對的嘛因為你們還沒有修你們不能這樣做吧你們是不是要依法行政我們沒有這樣子修我們說你啦你沒有問題我們說主計是你們既然沒有修其他各位你應該發文給各個部會啊"},{"start":10798.81,"end":10822.898,"text":"因為你們每個部會都有主計人員啊如果有的部會沒這樣做這樣他是不是違法不是因為現在是院長是說先凍結我知道你說的是那個因為114年度被刪減的情形要做調停我知道你說的是什麼我說但是我們財化法還沒有實施喔財化法還沒有實施喔這是另外一件事對不對這兩件事嘛所以我現在說的是自籌款的部分嘛我是可以請你跟各個部會通令啊"},{"start":10824.241,"end":10837.779,"text":"對不對 財化如果以後你要改成說要比例可能要調整你們會考慮那當然你們後面應該依法做嘛現在還沒有以前你們部應該這樣做是不是要通令你要請你的主計人員在各個部會的啊問他各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情這是違法欸"},{"start":10839.22,"end":10864.057,"text":"難道可以一個部長我隨便舉例隨便隨便某某部長就是說我比較喜歡某個縣市我就要求他這個只要自籌20%我最討厭這個縣市他就要加到70%不可以嘛政府有法令對不對所以你是不是要通令我要求啦通令請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政嘛現在有財力分級嘛對吧是不是可以這樣做"},{"start":10865.863,"end":10894.017,"text":"這個部分因為是行政院規範的不是我所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚其他部會違法你們裡面主計的人不用追究嗎那我要求一件事就好了好不好你請幫我了解給我資料各個部會因為你們都有主計的人有哪些部會做了這樣的事情違法要求地方給比較多超過原來他財力分級的部分一個月給我各個部會的資料"},{"start":10894.437,"end":10895.798,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢 請"},{"start":10923.837,"end":10924.878,"text":"請主席長 還有財政部阮次長兩位好我想"},{"start":10947.472,"end":10962.941,"text":"主席長跟財政部在3月12號立法院否決了《財化法》復議案當天本席在質詢院長的時候院長手上說他有一個行政院的版本請問兩位你們看過行政院的版本了嗎院長手上那個版本你看過了沒沒有主席長你看過了沒我們有討論過有討論過你看過版本沒"},{"start":10978.638,"end":11006.549,"text":"所以財政部也沒看過版本但是就在院長手上財政部次長沒看過版本沒有看過這個版本沒有看過版本所以意思就是說院長拿了一個空包彈來立法院欺騙我們所有的委員嗎財化法的架構是有交換意見所以從頭到尾行政院到現在還沒有任何的版本所以院長說他有版本要跟立法院討論目前為止還是空談重點是"},{"start":11009.141,"end":11032.606,"text":"我想問一下 復議案到現在 上個禮拜通過今天正式實施 上個禮拜五正式公告今天開始115年的預算編列就在眼前我想問一下兩位 尤其是主席長 請問適用新法就應該按照新法來編列 是嗎"},{"start":11035.608,"end":11062.702,"text":"這個部分我們也有跟相關法規去請示過我在問你法律法律通過了要不要執行它生效是114年但是因為整個一個流程因為你還沒有編嘛所以你要編115年我沒有在問你114年嘛所以115年的預算正要編要怎麼編是用新法來編就要用新的財政收支劃分法來編是吧"},{"start":11063.632,"end":11064.273,"text":"兩位沒有要回答我嗎"},{"start":11087.605,"end":11112.351,"text":"統籌分配稅款是這樣就是說在每一個會計年度之前的四個月它就要分配下去所以就114年度來講時間已經過了所以沒辦法再分配我沒有跟你講114我現在問你的115年現在地方政府正要開始編請問財政部他們要怎麼編那就前提就看我們財務法有沒有生效剛剛講了今天已經生效了"},{"start":11117.132,"end":11141.003,"text":"已經公告了所以次長啊你現在在這裡他已經生效了不要再跟我講生不生效的問題假定我們的相關的黨團好啦我現在只問說地方政府是不是還要等到你們要去申請釋憲要去復印要去大罷免然後編兩套預算本啊一個是舊法的一個是新法的他是不是要編兩套預算"},{"start":11141.883,"end":11154.16,"text":"版本才可以來因應接下去的預算編列尤其是到七月八月就要送到立法機關去審議啦財政部要不要告訴一下地方政府他們該怎麼辦"},{"start":11155.782,"end":11180.098,"text":"基本上我剛才也跟委員報告過就是說目前當然已經生效但生效的前提就是說我現在就問你生效之後你們要不要照辦嘛不辦就說不辦不辦就說地方政府你編兩套一套是按照新法一套是按照舊法現在說清楚講明白如果沒有申請暫時處分也沒有釋憲的話當然一定要按照生效的所以現在是三月快三月底了"},{"start":11180.698,"end":11210.136,"text":"四月五月你的如果会到几月预算编列不可能等到你们相关的如果发生了解所以时间点第二个地方政府现在到底有多少不知道财政部不想用新法来分配当然我知道你们只想去罢免重点是财政部你是行政机关次长你是重要的政务单位所以你们要告诉地方政府该怎么编吧"},{"start":11210.498,"end":11239.753,"text":"基本上跟委員報告基本上我們依法行政法通過了不執行就違法如果它已經正式生效那當然我們一定要依法來執行至少不要再說如果它今天就正式生效今天現在你要不要告訴我一下地方政府該怎麼辦地方政府那部分因為它是下一個會計年度的四個月之前我們才有分配法所以你要告訴他說依照新通過的法律去編列吧"},{"start":11242.657,"end":11267.814,"text":"所以你是要告訴我說中央的主管機關可以告訴地方政府你不用按照新法去編列時間還沒到到時候再看看這個國家因為行政院這樣的態度因為行政院完全不想要把這個版本拿出來跟立法院討論"},{"start":11271.175,"end":11299.405,"text":"政黨繼續火車對撞繼續魚死網破讓國家停擺這才是我今天看到行政院的態度財政部從來沒有放棄繼續在修法我再說一下很好笑你們3月6號不是開了一個會然後我們跟你們調資料你知道國庫署打電話復議案通過之後國庫署打來說請問辦公室還要不要資料意思就是說復議案通過了立法委員"},{"start":11300.717,"end":11325.789,"text":"要你們3月6號的所謂的徵詢會議資料已經不用提供了然後徵詢會議也沒有意義了是嗎不會我了解是沒有這種情況如果委員需要這個資料那個會議記錄的話我們會後會提供這沒有問題的是啊所以他打電話來問我要不要資料要資料就是要資料第二個你們的所謂的徵詢會議開了多少次啊"},{"start":11326.431,"end":11349.16,"text":"我們現在開了三次 已經開了第三次從去年到現在開過幾次啊開過三次所以今一次是3月6號是由主席長所以去年立法院叫你們去提版本到今年你們只開過三次徵詢會議問地方政府 問了三次都沒有答案所以就不提版本 是嗎我跟委員報告了"},{"start":11351.161,"end":11368.453,"text":"財政劃分法是我們中央跟地方財政收支劃分的我現在只想說,接下去115年的預算就在眼前我希望你一個月之內告訴我,告訴地方政府該怎麼編列你們要復業也好,你們要行政儲備也好"},{"start":11369.81,"end":11395.944,"text":"明白的告訴大家第二個不要讓院長拿了一個假的版本在立法院說我手上就有版本如果一個連財政部連主計處都沒看過的版本然後院長在立法院公開的回答委員說我手上就是版本到今天為止我很希望看到那個版本結果連你們也沒看過我們也沒看過全世界都沒看過但是行政院說我有版本他不拿給我們"},{"start":11397.267,"end":11425.182,"text":"只拿去外面宣講這是一個負責任的政府嗎拿去外面宣講不願意拿給要投附議票同不同意的立法委員來參考認為立法院一定不會通過如果你們有好的版本為什麼不爭取大家的支持這才是問題啊次長我給你一個月的時間115年的預算怎麼編要如何編接下來我想問一下主計長"},{"start":11426.57,"end":11452.393,"text":"我們接下去賴信德總統說我們被美國點名了我們要達到GDP3%的國防預算如果按照計算的話我們3%將近要8000億現在國防支出大概是6000多億所以還要再續編1500億左右請問會提出特別預算會提出相關的這個裁員來源嗎"},{"start":11454.535,"end":11473.63,"text":"這個部分我們就要看國防部他那個什麼時候會提還不知道什麼時候要提因為有時候就是說我縱使要維持百分之三我也沒辦法每一年都打百分之三所以今年不知道第二個如果要提這多提了一千五百億的話請問要舉債嗎"},{"start":11477.458,"end":11491.293,"text":"目前原則上我們先規劃說是用一個累積剩餘來做你現在稅制剩餘剩多少?你現在稅制剩餘只剩下一千多億了是嗎?我們目前"},{"start":11492.955,"end":11499.078,"text":"113年是1581但是大概累積起來應該還有將近2000多億可以用2000多億可以用所以暫時不會舉債來編這個特別預算原則上希望不要舉債那如果非得舉債也是應該要舉債所以你同意我們現在大家都希望說超徵的金額要拿來補發現金那接下去又編了這麼多可能要新增的預算請問你這個"},{"start":11520.948,"end":11545.615,"text":"掌握國家財政調度的主計長你這個要怎麼調配啊所以我們不希望說限定說哪些預算裡面限定哪些哪些是限定所以我們就可以按優先順序來做排列來做調整以上好所以現在財政部還有一個問題就是計劃性補助款是財政部在預算裡面很重要的調節所謂地方差異的狀況來時間暫停我請"},{"start":11549.502,"end":11575.401,"text":"所以財政部的計劃性補助款就像剛剛陳玉珍委員問的會不會有類似剛剛上述所言因為財化法的修正而有這樣子的差別待遇財政部據我了解計劃型的預算不是我們財政部這邊所以各單位來負責希望不要有任何所謂的差別待遇好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的資訊下面請王世堅委員發言"},{"start":11582.588,"end":11582.908,"text":"我們11點50開始發送便當謝謝主席 我請陳組長"},{"start":11603.636,"end":11622.267,"text":"主席 剛才新聞在我們質詢前你在回答前幾位委員的時候你等於就新聞做的解釋就是說大概就是確定要普發現金一萬元所以我不懂我們後續還要質詢你什麼我覺得那樣子的報導如果"},{"start":11623.308,"end":11652.122,"text":"曲解了你的意思我認為你應該適度的澄清剛才幾家主流媒體都已經這樣報導了我希望你那麼如果啦我簡單講如果都要發現金那主席黨我現在就可以告訴你那乾脆三兆一千億就普發給兩千三百萬人民政府解算算了嘛不是嗎解算算了啊"},{"start":11653.393,"end":11662.398,"text":"那不是全民皆大歡喜 可以這樣子嗎我跟你講 我認為啦推行有效率的政策才是還稅於民不是這樣嗎所以我今天跟你要求的第一點"},{"start":11677.95,"end":11684.294,"text":"我要求你主計處你要有擔當不要再講一些不痛不癢的話不要認為說發發現金好啦這個也無傷大雅錯了要發現金可以"},{"start":11697.813,"end":11709.07,"text":"那要特別條例而不是設在預算法去把整個預算法是把我們所有收入預算常態化耶你看過去"},{"start":11710.666,"end":11733.941,"text":"蔡英文總統的時候發了幾次人家是因為有疫情疫後有特別條例也經過全民多數的民眾的民意不是這樣嗎那如果今天我們是要修預算法增加這個條例基本上常態化就是不對了嘛這一點你一定要堅持啊"},{"start":11734.341,"end":11757.23,"text":"是所以我希望你有擔當擔起來而且最短時間內做出決策不要讓在這個事情讓大家政府也好民間也好心裡有疙瘩大家為了這個事情爭論不休 忐忑不安我認為不要這個樣子第二點我要告訴你的就是說倒是倒是我們要來"},{"start":11763.559,"end":11781.836,"text":"這個推動有益的政策啦我認為應該編列特別條例特別預算來針對貼補台電貼補勞健保的缺口貼補長照基金這才是有意義的啊不是這樣嗎我舉勞保就好勞保預估2070年"},{"start":11786.397,"end":11799.3,"text":"我們的基金總數將是餘額將是負的71.4兆那將就我們國家EDB的三倍天啊天啊"},{"start":11800.199,"end":11828.77,"text":"所以這個貼補勞保健保這才是應當貼補台電這一次給他們台電一千億這樣免於電價漲價如果政府吸收一千億給台電那就是一千億如果政府不貼補不吸收放給民間去漲的話那就不會是一千億那會變成兩千億三千億的社會負擔所以這個"},{"start":11830.231,"end":11848.018,"text":"非常要緊不是嗎還有我們長照基金啊長照基金哇也是一個非常大的缺口啦我相信你已經知道嘛長照基金去年的基金來源如果不付出啊去年基金來源776億結果實際"},{"start":11850.979,"end":11875.04,"text":"支出高達828億今年你們預估基金來人752億但是用途支出更高達879億不是這樣嗎所以如果照這個預算的話那2028年長照基金就完全用完不是嗎所以我認為這些有意義的政策"},{"start":11876.567,"end":11902.845,"text":"才是真的還稅於民這也是我們設政府的目的是不是那你的看法呢第一點我真的你剛才電視主流媒體普遍報導的說等於啊政府已經做了這個打算了大概現在正在作業當中八月左右完成大概九月要發這個部分你要先澄清啊你的看法呢"},{"start":11903.445,"end":11931.006,"text":"其實我們原則上我們都是不支持他發放現金常態化依照發放現金他有特殊的目的所以以往都是訂特別條例然後之後通過之後才編列預算所以這個部分如果常態化的話他整個影響整個預算的一個執行的彈性所以我們原則上我們是不支持的對那所以你更正囉所謂的九月可能發放現金"},{"start":11934.622,"end":11958.172,"text":"你的看法呢你要講得更明確一點啊我知道當然不支持啊常態化就我剛剛講嘛常態化無法保持政府對預算運用的彈性嘛我們會碰到很多社會經濟情勢的變化碰到重大的災情啊等等啊不是嗎疫情啊所以當然不要常態化這是一定的"},{"start":11959.188,"end":11969.527,"text":"是但是你要針對我說你今天上午剛才被報導的這個啦九月講得很明九月就要發放現金你的看法呢"},{"start":11970.114,"end":11995.373,"text":"不是 因為我們是說整個一個政策一個優先順序的排列必須由各部會來跟院長報告由院長來做裁示我們當時的部分是說這整個的一個政策是不是要列入政策還是那發放現金一萬元也是你們要跟院長報告的所謂政策之一囉你們決定的因為發放現金不是我們在負責主導但是他現在要修改一個預算法我們是認為我跟你講喔"},{"start":11996.534,"end":12006.588,"text":"那個主技術還有幾項其實我就舉你們很多預估其實錯誤你們預估去年的GDP最早在前年底的時候你們最早預估的時候說3.35%"},{"start":12008.975,"end":12036.276,"text":"結果幾次修正以後有提高去年GDP多少4.59%跟你原始的預估差了一點多那我為什麼提這件事情那個主計處我為什麼提這個事情你說三減預算導致政府支出減少導致我們GDP可能下降但是那個差0點多而已所以我是要告訴你第一點我們政府現在財政部"},{"start":12037.082,"end":12053.349,"text":"我先前質詢之後人家財政部已經積極去推動乙類公債要把我們在海外的授權資金引進回台灣加速台灣的公共建設第二點金管會也通過啦不動產證券化REACH"},{"start":12055.13,"end":12078.653,"text":"歷史這個已經條例也通過要這麼做 也是引進民間資金當有這兩大民間資金的來源進駐到 溢出到我們國內建設的時候我相信我們的GDP會更樂觀那更樂觀的結果 那我們就不必發現金不是嗎那是因為疫情導致GDP下降"},{"start":12079.674,"end":12097.516,"text":"所以政府才發放現金嘛所以你講的這個預算去影響到GDP導致政府支出去下滑影響GDP第一個我認為那個為無期為第二個你的下滑運送的需要需要發現金了嘛不是嗎所以我希望主技術"},{"start":12100.421,"end":12114.891,"text":"你不必做任何遮掩你不必為任何已經既定的方向不必你就據實以告好不好因為我看你的個性你也是一個很坦然的人啊我看你先前的做事也是這樣嘛"},{"start":12116.493,"end":12131.489,"text":"我們就正大光明坦坦然然的面對事實證據還有數據我希望這個數據不要再那麼離譜可不可以你去看一下你前年底你就講3.35嘛"},{"start":12133.479,"end":12160.487,"text":"你歷來一直修正結果最後4.59差了1.24這個不可謂不大那我希望在這個部分你收回今天早上如果我們這些媒體的報導是曲解的話我希望待會修會之後你就跟這些媒體溝通希望他們收回這樣子的報導因為事實上"},{"start":12161.516,"end":12176.813,"text":"沒有這樣子的一回事說確定啦就是要發放啦就是已經作業中啦然後9月要發放這是給我們社會不必要的莫名其妙的額外的一種"},{"start":12177.89,"end":12206.558,"text":"期待不必要這麼做好不好主計處的任務就是實話實說那精準的數據掌握跟分析然後忠實的向社會大眾報告然後做出應有的政府決策可不可以好不好主計長送你四個字啦認作"},{"start":12207.677,"end":12215.482,"text":"道遠謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝王委員的質詢 下一位請李坤城委員質詢請謝謝主席主席長要先喝口水嗎不用 那就請主席長主席長請"},{"start":12234.81,"end":12262.3,"text":"委員好主席好辛苦了這個我先提問的問題跟剛剛這個王世堅委員的提問是一樣的因為剛剛看到報導很多這個新聞媒體的標題都寫著說最快今年九月就可以領到普發現金一萬塊了他們說是從你的資料上面推估出來的你的資料上面有寫說115年度的中央政府總預算案將於本年的八月底前送大院審議"},{"start":12263.76,"end":12283.622,"text":"那他是從這個推斷出來說全民最快可以到九月領到普發現金一萬塊還是剛剛你有回答了這個委員的質詢當中你有提到說最快九月可以領到現金一萬塊沒有 因為我是說這個政策的決定是要由院長來決定但是如果說這個部分預算法要把它"},{"start":12284.122,"end":12305.791,"text":"修正為常態化來劃現金這個部分是不可行我們是建議不要如此來做所以主計總署的建議是說不希望發現金常態化所以對於等一下有可能會討論到的這個預算法的修正案主計總署的看法 主計長的看法咧"},{"start":12306.571,"end":12327.145,"text":"因為他花現金常態化以後就失去了彈性而且花現金是針對特殊的一個目的所以我們都訂特別的條例來執行等特別條例通過以後我們才來編預算好那所以第一個主席是不支持這個運算法的這個修正案在議長所提的這個修正案就對了"},{"start":12328.1,"end":12340.878,"text":"我們原則上是不希望這樣子來修正因為這樣修正讓我們以後的一個政策就比較執行就沒有彈性好那第二個也沒有所謂的九月之後就可以連到普發現金一萬塊"},{"start":12342.185,"end":12356.469,"text":"我覺得這個要說明一下因為我看到很多媒體的標都寫成這樣子114年度的預算現在執行了我們不可能在9月發現金所以這個部分那再來另外如果115年的部分現在目前還沒有籌編預算還沒有籌編"},{"start":12358.871,"end":12381.969,"text":"那我想你已經說得很清楚了也讓很多媒體更了解說這個主計長的說法是怎麼樣好 那我再請教一下主計長首先我先肯定你就是說我也鼓勵我們的內閣的閣員能夠下鄉去跟民眾把政策說清楚所以不論是這個主計長或是其他的內閣閣員"},{"start":12383.61,"end":12403.621,"text":"在這個行政院有哪些政策需要跟民眾說得清楚那行政院因為有什麼樣的預算受到了刪減以至於呢沒辦法做到哪些事情哪些建設遇到了阻礙我都希望除了在立法院說明之外能夠下項去說清楚所以我是肯定這個主計長包含其他的內閣的閣員到這個"},{"start":12406.863,"end":12428.88,"text":"下鄉去把這個政策說清楚我也歡迎3月30號我們在板橋下午2點又舉辦一個說明會主席長有空也歡迎主席長過來我們把這個政策把它說清楚那個請教一下這個總統在3月21號的時候已經公佈了這個總預算跟才化法了"},{"start":12430.762,"end":12452.341,"text":"在公布之前那當然行政院有提出這個致愛難行的理由那不過很可惜副議案沒有過那您提出的這個行政院所提出來這個致愛難行的理由也包括第一個這一次的總運算並沒有這個最後並沒有這個宣告出來說這個三減數的金額跟稅數的總額沒有嘛對不對"},{"start":12455.682,"end":12469.35,"text":"這過去都沒有嘛過去都會說你三減的金額是多少總三減金額是多少稅數總額是多少今年沒有沒有那這個還有一個自行調整的差了636億元嘛對不對那請問一下這636億怎麼辦"},{"start":12474.741,"end":12500.082,"text":"所以這個部分我們要進行刪減部分這個部分是有困難的所以我們要整個要詢問給立法院來跟他報告說這個部分是不是可以進行協商或者是說我將來如果說要怎麼樣來做這個部分的一個刪減或者是刪減以後要將來如何追加這個部分都是需要協商的一個部分所以理論上"},{"start":12501.624,"end":12518.906,"text":"這個立法委員審議預算覺得說哪個預算有問題這邊刪那邊刪,師出有名嘛那我看到其實那天在審討預算的時候我覺得說那所謂的這個自行調整有差了這636億我就不知道說讓你們要怎麼自行去做調整啊"},{"start":12520.087,"end":12543.259,"text":"因為這個東西已經嚴重的限制到行政權力嘛對不對調整是有困難的所以如果真正刪減之後可能造成某一部分的執行或者業務執行非常的困難要刪誰的?請問要刪誰的?要刪交通部的?要刪內政部的?這沒有辦法去做決定嘛所以主席老師說這個會在行文給立法院"},{"start":12544.139,"end":12566.033,"text":"要做這個636億要怎麼樣去做對 進行請立法院來協助那大概哪時候會行文到立法院大概近期就會發文了然後呢 因為治安難行嘛我看這個監察院他們已經致力救濟了他們預計要在今天提出這個釋憲跟暫時處分那請問一下行政院後續的救濟途徑"},{"start":12568.359,"end":12595.304,"text":"原則上這個部分因為監察院呢它是有一些是3到0所以它有一些水電費啊相關的一個費用它支付有困難那所以這個部分呢因為事實上如果要等到6月份追加預算通過的話它還是時間太長所以我們在這當中我們就先會報請行政院來動之第二預備金來做支印那暫時支印到6月份然後等到追加預算如果有通過再行來把它補足"},{"start":12596.383,"end":12611.665,"text":"所以現在這部分的話就是先用這個動資第二預備金就對了我們會報行政院來申請動資第二預備金這個流程然後再來會再辦理追加預算的一個部分目前行政院的救濟程序是這樣子"},{"start":12612.772,"end":12640.166,"text":"另外一個救濟的一個途徑是怎麼樣這個部分我也必須要看行政院整個一個它一個研議的一個情形就你們的部分來講就是第二預備金那請問一下因為我看有很多的這個預算案的解凍的條件複雜度也蠻高難度也蠻高的說要用到這個凍結70%要執行30%之後才可以用那有些在委員會有些還要在院會"},{"start":12641.686,"end":12667.84,"text":"請問一下主計總署這個有沒有這個刪除或凍結預算在這裡有我們凍結40%然後要用到剩下說就是等於說執行到這個部分才能夠去報請凍結那當中就有時間的落差那時候有一些業務就沒有辦法那你們可以提早送來立法院嗎因為我看很多委員他們現在或許有罷免的壓力了"},{"start":12669.04,"end":12685.568,"text":"還沒有說我們沒有刪除只是凍結啊趕快送來立法院我們解凍就好啦報告委員院長有下令大概一個月內全部把凍結的案子報到立法院請求我希望你們各部會都把被凍結的預算送來立法院是"},{"start":12686.848,"end":12713.38,"text":"這個雖然它有規定說你要用到多少才能報但是我認為緩不及急而且這個政策是有延續性的啊怎麼可能說我剛好用到30%最後再用70%不可能嘛希望在一個月之內把這些解凍案送來立法院我相信這個大家都可以看因為我看到很多國民黨的立委現在在這地方講沒有啊我們沒有刪除只是凍結啊好凍結那就來解凍看哪個委員不同意凍結嘛"},{"start":12715.261,"end":12723.692,"text":"不要在這個地方上是說了一套在立法院就說的是另外一套好 那再請教一下這個 足跡總數預測今年的經濟成長率是3.14%"},{"start":12727.762,"end":12745.896,"text":"那中央銀行是下修啦到3.05%因為央行總裁是認為說這個美國經貿政策的不確定性有提高那我請問一下你比較樂觀也是3.14%但是如果凍結預算刪除預算對GDP有沒有影響"},{"start":12747.133,"end":12766.832,"text":"有 有影響有什麼樣的影響就是因為我們本身一個如果資本性的一個支出被刪減了那將來投資就會減少那這個整個譬如說公共建設的部分減少那也會有影響那所以這個部分呢影響的雖然就是說等於說影響差不多0.15%左右啦"},{"start":12767.492,"end":12785.438,"text":"那但是這個還有一個636這個部分我們是還沒有把它估進去那這個部分如果再估進去還是會有影響0.2到0.3左右那這個部分呢我們如果將來有再追加它就會回來如果沒有那就是會影響到GDP整個一個情形"},{"start":12787.318,"end":12796.142,"text":"那所以本來是預估3.14%嘛那我看你比較樂觀但是呢如果是東扣西扣有被刪除的預算有被凍結的預算那還有636億不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":12800.848,"end":12821.86,"text":"扣掉這些之後你還能樂觀的說能夠維持在3%以上嗎因為這個部分目前就是說原來那個美國的一個部分這個變動的因素也還沒有完全扣進去所以這個部分但是我們一二月的出口的狀況非常的好所以這個部分應該我們今年的一個經濟是穩定的成長的"},{"start":12823.246,"end":12847.565,"text":"但是整個凍結跟刪除預算大概你這樣加一加大概會影響到幾%大概0.2到0.3左右0.2到0.3那扣掉的話就沒有3了啊保3就很難啊我們會盡量這個部分因為像出口部分是狀況即使是今年真的還不錯一二月都還不錯那再請教一下最後一個問題在野黨現在要砍掉2000億台電的補助對於CPI有沒有影響"},{"start":12850.708,"end":12863.624,"text":"時間到了再三十秒讓主界長來回答一下就好了也是會有影響大概有可能如果這樣的話有可能會超過二啦不會超過二就對了謝謝李文的資訊下一位請顏光文資訊"},{"start":12870.011,"end":12895.668,"text":"跟組織黨報告啊你不可以針對不同委員的答案不一樣啊我剛才問你的時候就講追加減預算PLUS第二億北京你都說不行結果對李坤誠你都說行怎麼會這樣子呢這點答案到底是行不行對不對你剛才面對我我執行你你就說不行這個不行那個不行通通不行李坤誠一來通通行"},{"start":12897.671,"end":12921.842,"text":"我對陳哲和主席講 我對你是很尊重的怎麼會不同的委員 答案不一樣來源北側啊 到底行不行啊 對不對 通可以通可以一般委員講話 我是尊重的 我是不插嘴的但是因為你對李昆城的答案跟我的答案一模一樣的問題答案完全不一樣"},{"start":12923.154,"end":12949.279,"text":"李昆賢就完全可以 賴思寶就完全不可以到底是怎麼樣 你是中華民國主席長啊 你不是民進黨主席長啊好不好 請沒有 我沒有執政你言論啦 我是執政他我不跟你 我尊重你講話好不好 我尊重你講話"},{"start":12952.059,"end":12978.579,"text":"我當主席到現在 第一次插嘴這個是他的問題跟你沒有關係跟你沒有關係 你不要對他入座跟你沒有關係 OK不是 因為他對你的答案跟我你去吊錄音帶 因為問的問題完全一樣問的問題完全一樣結果他給了答案 說不可以給你答案就可以 好不好 我們繼續執行 繼續執行"},{"start":12980.182,"end":12983.024,"text":"我國的整體經濟發展國人的努力是有目共睹的但是最近主計處"},{"start":13000.083,"end":13023.085,"text":"把今年的經濟成長由原本預測的3.29%下修至3.14%然後說預算遭三減是重要的原因之一你還放話說如果日後追加預算不如預期還會再調降我在這邊要鄭重的跟主席總署說不要恐嚇人民無端的製造恐慌各大智庫最近都上修了我國的經濟成長"},{"start":13024.557,"end":13047.824,"text":"你們自己公布的資料也顯示今年的經濟活力要比原本預測來得好民間消費 民間投資 出口等成長率全數上修那出口預測甚至比原預測多出了58億美金我們都有明白一個道理內需外貿成長都調升那經濟成長應該要上修哪裡會調降主計總署本次發布的經濟預測媒體的報導都落在"},{"start":13051.658,"end":13070.606,"text":"三預算削弱成長動能 總預算遭三減 經濟難保三總預算遭三 主計總署下修今年經濟成長沒有人可以認同主委長 難道你要放任一個本應具有公信力的統計機關這樣子造謠恐嚇民眾嗎"},{"start":13074.056,"end":13091.633,"text":"那我再問就是說你們這一次將經濟成長從3.29%下修到3.14%理由之一是總預算遭刪減那未來總預算的追加不如預測還會再調降我想要請你告訴我你們自己公布的數據上顯示民間消費還有這個"},{"start":13098.351,"end":13121.03,"text":"民間投資出口上修民間投資出口等都比預測值也比原來多58億美金那民間投資方面國內外智庫也都上修了台灣的投資成長預測既然內需外貿都向上調整那請問經濟成長率為什麼不是向上而是向下主委長你說一下"},{"start":13122.501,"end":13150.664,"text":"報告委員因為我們去年經濟成長的數字它已經墊高了所以你相對比較起來今年的數字就會下降那這是主要的因素啦當然預算影響是一點點墊高的時候我才說像人家央行它上個禮拜的這個禮監事會議它公佈的下修2025的經濟成長率為3.05它的理由是有點有據啊它有實際的說明說去年成長率優於預期嘛"},{"start":13151.204,"end":13173.86,"text":"所以這個就是說他整個電高了機器電高了所以才會做這樣子下去你不是啊你把理由說成是總預算稍三減啦所以政府台灣的經濟發展是要靠政府來帶動政府的支出來帶動嗎是這樣子嗎所以我才說人家央行有直接把這些理由都說明清楚但是主席長"},{"start":13174.6,"end":13190.84,"text":"我們這邊沒有嘛 對不對你甚至於說用這種方法來製造恐慌總預算遭刪除但是我們被刪除的總預算仍然是史上最高的規模啊大家都知道啊 對不對2.9兆之外再加上超徵的5200多億"},{"start":13193.998,"end":13209.108,"text":"這個預算規模是有史以來最高的嘛但是你們對外發布的媒體的標題全部都是刪減這個預算削弱成長動能總預算遭刪減經濟難保三這些話都是你們放出來的啊不是嗎 主席長"},{"start":13210.041,"end":13237.483,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為這個部分重點是說因為去年的經濟成長表現很良好所以整個基數墊高這是最主要的因素但是但是有人也問說你預算刪減有沒有影響我說也有影響也有影響嘛但是影響的數值不是那麼的大是比較小的是這樣但是這樣子的話我大概把它還原原來的一個這個"},{"start":13240.406,"end":13268.586,"text":"這個說明的一個方向這樣子所以我們要據實告訴我們的民眾不是用這樣子的就一個放話的方式然後用影射的方式把整個理由都把它說成是總預算照刪減那我們現在是有史以來最高規模的總預算政府為什麼沒辦法做事情當初我們賴總統在當行政院長的時候總預算也才不到兩兆啊"},{"start":13269.562,"end":13270.894,"text":"現在接近三兆"},{"start":13272.351,"end":13299.256,"text":"為什麼說政府沒有辦法運作那這個部分我也說明因為我們增加2,806億這個部分主要是增加在公共建設增加在補助健保這些等等那我們刪減是集中在某一些機關的特定業務項目譬如說它的業務費或者是說某一些機關它被刪減到零那等於說它完全沒有經費可以執行所以這個部分才會有執行的困難"},{"start":13301.016,"end":13327.787,"text":"我們這個主義處把它寫成這些原因經濟成長下修的這些預測然後把它理由推到總預算遭刪減所以你們的意思就是說經濟成長是靠政府花錢來撐不要把人民當笨蛋好不好不要把人民當笨蛋不要忽略國人對我國經濟的努力還有付出好不好主委長你請回主席有請財政部"},{"start":13329.506,"end":13332.628,"text":"財政部阮政次阮市長請委員好市長因為台灣經濟表現超乎預期那稅收超增所以要還稅於民普發現金讓全民共享經濟成果減輕民眾負擔穩定民生物價這是112年"},{"start":13359.1,"end":13377.338,"text":"普發現金六千元的時候當時的行政院長蘇貞昌說的普發現金的理由那我要請教市長因為部長沒有來嘛那一樣的我要請教市長說我們要不要把這些經濟成果來分享給我們的民眾能不能全民共享要不要普發"},{"start":13378.438,"end":13400.124,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說今年的狀況跟111年的狀況是不太一樣那100就是就113年的預算來講那麼時增數超過預算數是3700多億嘛那我們事實上我們也用來這個先還減少舉債跟先還債那今年也是一樣嗎那時增數超過5283億啊"},{"start":13403.118,"end":13424.392,"text":"對 但是那時候的金額比較大而且那時候是有疫情的問題那這一次為什麼112年的時候可以全民分享這樣的經濟成果但是到了現在因為物價房租萬物齊長的情況之下民眾的負擔越來越大但是財政部的態度卻是物是人非金非喜彼為什麼"},{"start":13425.593,"end":13440.324,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在的財政狀況雖然是我們的稅收雖然是時增數超過預算數但是這不表示我們財政是有剩餘我跟委員報告從101年到去到112年為止只有3年"},{"start":13445.027,"end":13459.194,"text":"有財政的剩餘一點點的剩餘其他全部都是赤字所以如果是照目前提到的這些修法案達到一定的門檻以後"},{"start":13460.294,"end":13487.014,"text":"就一定要發的話我這邊的資料103年到112年稅客收入10增進而達到總預算編列9次其中達成率110%以上的有4個年度將這筆超增稅收普發給全體國民有助於緩解民生的負擔那去年超增的部分5283 5千多億扣除還本之後還有剩餘"},{"start":13487.915,"end":13502.606,"text":"對不對那還有剩餘的話為什麼112年可以共享這種經濟成果為什麼今年就不行那行政院行政院主任長也表示要將普發現金列入討論要列入討論喔所以財政部難道要跟他唱反調嗎"},{"start":13503.647,"end":13517.136,"text":"因為其實我們 我剛才講就是說就111年度那一年的財政的剩餘達到3500多億那在113年的財政剩餘大概不到他的一半"},{"start":13519.177,"end":13535.872,"text":"所以另外一個就是說,114年那時候有疫情的問題所以那時候是因為經濟表現不錯,所以在財政也可以所以那時候才會有普發現金,再加上其他的一些振興的措施"},{"start":13538.594,"end":13562.003,"text":"政府的財源來自於人民當人民生活困難而我們經濟成長又帶來了超額的稅收理當讓人民共享這樣的經濟成果不該僅用說我們預備未來的未知支出用這個理由來"},{"start":13564.517,"end":13585.652,"text":"把它掩蓋掉那普發現金這也是多數人而且政府現在我們行政院院長也將列入討論所以我想請教財政部支不支持我們財政部是這樣我們負責這個稅入的籌措至於說有關的稅數這部分比如說剛才講的"},{"start":13586.753,"end":13608.758,"text":"我們就是列入稅計剩餘那一部分要怎麼運用稅收是來自全民的貢獻所以應該要優先考量全民的利益做普發現金讓經濟成長真正匯集到每一位國民有關稅計剩餘那一部分我們是覺得說要有主管器官那麼依照施政的優先順序來做好 謝謝鄧議員的執行下面請楊瓊英委員執行 請"},{"start":13622.111,"end":13624.192,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請主席長陳主席 請"},{"start":13633.175,"end":13652.783,"text":"我們根據主計總書的資料顯示在2024年全年的消費者物價指數CPI是達到2.18%而且也連續三年突破了2%的通膨警戒線在2025年1月份的CPI更告訴我們是高達2.66%顯示國內的民生經濟能受通膨的衝擊"},{"start":13659.206,"end":13667.61,"text":"我們又再看到財政部的統計資料去年全國稅收時增的金額是達到3,7619億較原先的超增數有超增了5,283億是歷年最高的超收紀錄所以在這邊請教超增的稅收"},{"start":13687.518,"end":13701.362,"text":"主席長,是不是應該要普發現金,還稅漁民呢?請做說明跟委員報告一下,這個5283分到中央的部分是3757那你還累積之前前三年,4000多、4000多、5000多多少?"},{"start":13707.304,"end":13734.712,"text":"沒有,因為114年我們的累積剩餘有部分去支援支印那個特別預算的一個億後的一個特別預算有3900多億所以我們去年在114年度的時候他的剩餘是剩下158億那158億再加上今年的一些剩餘的話目前大概剩下是差不多2000多億那這個部分呢我們也是以這個整個來看的話"},{"start":13738.515,"end":13756.912,"text":"5283去扣掉那個變成3753他3753的部分今年的一個情況主要是因為我們本來要舉債的部分因為他有現金多收入所以就沒有去舉債第二個我們又還本所以本身在113年度他才剩下1500多在四年前我們問你們"},{"start":13758.453,"end":13772.939,"text":"你們都說超徵的稅收你要去還債第二年再超徵你也說要去還債第三年超收的稅徵你也說是要還債但是累進起來不到一成的還債"},{"start":13774.059,"end":13801.769,"text":"所以人民在通膨的指數一直增加的情況之下人就希望還稅於民你要慎重的考慮因為現在通膨非常的嚴肅所以在這樣的情況之下我們希望能夠直接受惠人民讓人民有感這是非常的重要所以本期希望的也就是目前為止我們人民的生活你看物價起漲"},{"start":13803.942,"end":13824.02,"text":"房貸沉重人民的生活壓力這麼這麼的大所以還稅移民是很重要的民主的觀念所以我希望本席希望主席長你審慎考慮之這是人民的民意新生那接下來本席要請教主席長2月26號的時候呢我們發布了經濟的成長率是3.14%"},{"start":13830.586,"end":13842.875,"text":"那我們從歷年的支出來看今年政府投資成長率是達到6.3%是六年來次高也是過去十年來平均成長數3%的兩倍"},{"start":13845.817,"end":13868.64,"text":"政府在消費成長率是2.9%也比過去10年平均值的2.2%來得高所以今年政府的消費與政府投資的對經濟成長的貢獻是0.58百分比那這個比例也是近10年來的第四高顯見中央政府總預算不僅沒有拖累今年的經濟成長"},{"start":13869.841,"end":13896.751,"text":"仍舊有不小的一個貢獻仍舊有不小的貢獻所以本席要請教主席長聯合國2014年大會的決議他決議說政府統計十大的準則最重要的是什麼是獨立性對不對主席長對是獨立性嘛所以主席長你有堅守"},{"start":13898.531,"end":13912.544,"text":"獨立性 捍衛組織處的公信力嗎請說明是 我們一向都是依法辦事那這個部分如果說是今年3.14我們修正本來是3.29但是修正為3.14是因為去年113年度它整個基期墊高"},{"start":13919.149,"end":13946.568,"text":"他本身本來也是4.26後來墊高到4.59所以墊高了之後才修正往下剛剛我本席也將你們自己所提出的數據很清楚的告訴你他是累進來我們都還是成長雖然你這個下修差了0.15%對不對所以我還是要請你公正性跟獨立性務必要堅守最後一分鐘給我"},{"start":13947.929,"end":13961.675,"text":"我這個馬上給他就好了謝謝我在這邊我要請沈記長不要了 這個下一次好了我工作給他就好了沈記長 謝謝你站那裡聽就好了你站那裡聽就好了因為我們今天還要討論案子一分鐘就好了 不要不要就這樣 站那裡聽就好了謝謝好 謝謝下一位請張其蓋委員執行"},{"start":13991.383,"end":13991.524,"text":"兩位好"},{"start":14008.119,"end":14031.225,"text":"你們現在行政院下鄉的宣講現在連演都不演了本來說明總預算現在變成什麼都在推動大罷免王一川在高歌推動大罷免我看大半時間都在推大罷免你們怎麼用人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的大罷免呢這符合預算的規定嗎"},{"start":14033.717,"end":14059.458,"text":"來來來我先問一下你們現在下鄉用哪一個科目 用掉多少錢我們沒有 我也沒有請司機載我們都自己坐車啊我們都沒有用我們沒有用行政院的錢啦 沒有沒有用行政業績沒有用行政業績你看來 我給你看那張圖這個上面有多少是行政部門的人你看一下在那裡一張畫你啊"},{"start":14062.788,"end":14089.657,"text":"陳金德啊 陸委會主委彭隨正啊你出門沒有維安人員嗎沒有司機嗎 沒有交通費嗎沒有發行政部門的這個錢嗎我前天看你還上台講話你的談餐誰寫的民進黨給你寫的 還是你的幕僚給你寫的民進黨還提供你談餐嗎沒有 這我自己寫的"},{"start":14091.653,"end":14118.295,"text":"喔 主席長會貪財自己寫這不是謊話 就是真的是一個很親民的主席長人民會判斷 會判斷啦今天我的執行重點是不要拿人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的這個大罷免民進黨你要大罷免你有自己的錢啊不要寄生在行政部門主席長 你們部會首長責任很重大你們有很多事情要做"},{"start":14119.912,"end":14137.121,"text":"你如果說下鄉去當初我們在討論這個事情了專稅改專稅改你們不只創了中華民國的這個首例也是全世界的首例國會跟立法院本來就監督行政部門預算啊結果你們現在反過來下鄉去"},{"start":14139.62,"end":14159.449,"text":"這全世界大概是世界奇蹟行政部門在監督立法院 國會議員審查預算 還大造謠這已經變成一個世界奇蹟了現在更嚴重的你們大半的時間上去的人都在講大罷免你沒有發現在整個社會被你們搞得對立整個台灣現在是失業了嗎?蘇貝丁"},{"start":14165.27,"end":14187.977,"text":"我們明確的要求,第一,我剛才跟你講一個第一重點,你們是國家的重臣,你們是要為國家謀福利的,你每分錢都是民脂民膏,你念就是我們的心碎喔,每分錢都非常重要喔,你不管是你的,你看議定要出來,你要出來,有多少維安人員要動,警察多少人要動,那個場合要動用到多少錢,那個都是國家的錢耶,"},{"start":14190.225,"end":14200.709,"text":"所以不要又動用我們的資源人民的納稅錢包括剛才剛才說的行政院長或者是每個部委首長去你們談判當然是你的幕僚寫的啊來我來請教新規定來新規定啊這種議審這種議審夠得了你審計部嗎這說明總預算"},{"start":14215.916,"end":14243.531,"text":"那去推動這個大罷免,這些人這花的錢,每分錢,夠得讓你審計部嗎?剛剛主計長講,每個人都是自己付的費用如果是公家的,我們會了解一下,大概他的這個工作是屬於黨的工作,還是屬於公務的工作,我們會做一個了解"},{"start":14243.871,"end":14271.582,"text":"所以到時候你要清清楚楚 要查清楚喔到底是用他們自己的錢 還是用公家的錢第二個我剛講更直接了你光是出去維安的人臉那個人事費跟那些動用的錢不是我們人民的民脂民膏嗎 我這有清楚嗎為了你推動大罷免你說你自己沒錢錢出來 老實講我是我剛講的 光是談餐這部分光是維安人臉 這個怎麼不是動用到我們人民的錢好不好 另外"},{"start":14273.021,"end":14280.169,"text":"現在你們在推動這個大罷免大概用到人民的這個納稅錢多少那個錢要從哪邊來 預算科目是什麼要從哪邊去找這個錢出來讓他們辦這個大罷免"},{"start":14285.298,"end":14306.21,"text":"報告委員齁 我沒有推動大罷免我只是針對我的政策做宣講而已其他我都沒有涉及我講到時候要投票啦現在中選會應該沒有這筆錢嘛 對不對本來編的沒有這一筆嘛 對不對這筆錢要出他目前沒有提出來啦對啊 成案以後要開始要投票要出錢第二億八千對不對這個部分到時候再看來"},{"start":14309.298,"end":14324.968,"text":"我們到時候再來看 看他的主委長你有責任啦 至少他可能要12億啊 那個是第二億倍金喔 那是我們救命錢喔好不好 所以當然最理想了以娼生為戀 趕快踩煞車 不要再推這個違法而且造成人民的納稅錢被亂花的這個大罷免謝謝現在請吳世耀委員發言"},{"start":14338.771,"end":14344.244,"text":"謝謝主席有請主席長也請財政部的阮次長陳主席長以及阮次長請"},{"start":14352.847,"end":14381.741,"text":"委員好我也想分享我的觀點給剛剛質詢的張綺凱委員聽再次澄清 再次說明向投家報告宣講的行程是民進黨中央所舉辦沒有動用到半分半毫的民脂民膏主計長您下鄉您也是交通費這我們都是行政院再交代也對外澄清再澄清沒有動用到任何的公帑 對不對"},{"start":14382.361,"end":14397.078,"text":"我都沒有我都自己坐車坐捷運我都沒有坐請司機來載是所以這要再次澄清已經澄清多次了還是有委員要在這裡造謠第二個立法委員的薪水向誰領的也是國庫嗎"},{"start":14400.492,"end":14412.644,"text":"立法委員的助理是誰聘的也是國家嘛立法委員的談餐張其凱委員站在這裡質詢我也不曉得您的談餐也應當是受惠於您的研究團隊嘛"},{"start":14414.082,"end":14432.2,"text":"所以呢這個刮別人鬍子之前先刮刮自己的如果立法委員的薪水來自於民脂民膏但是卻在做很多不符合國家需求的事我們真的要深自檢討好我回到今天的主題沒有人在講大罷免我們在講法案"},{"start":14432.981,"end":14459.738,"text":"今天教委所排的是預算法八十一條但是同時要並案思考的是國民黨團另外也提出了一個普發現金的特別條例在經濟委員會主審我要說還稅移民是假議題稅收超出預期是拼經濟有成而拼經濟有成的經濟發展的紅利全民共享每一分每一毫都取之於民用之於民下業"},{"start":14461.411,"end":14490.183,"text":"因為拼經濟有成才能夠超收所以在野黨的委員做很多的批判之前我也希望能夠合理評價讓全民在這幾年民進黨執政的這幾年大家在疫情之後我們挺過了我們拿出拼經濟的好成績這是全國人民共同的努力如果要說要批判超徵的這件事情真的要給予合理評價"},{"start":14491.483,"end":14509.69,"text":"吳思耀的主張三件事要做任何的特別條例的立法或是預算法的修法不要再違憲了立法委員不得為增加支出之提議當然對於指定支出也有待商榷所以在憲法預算法財政紀律法的規範之下我們真的不要再違憲了有這個疑慮"},{"start":14512.111,"end":14533.392,"text":"第二個我非常支持財政部說的你們要善用科學的方法要精進稅收估測的作為要組成一個專案小組現在是不是在進行有這個強化估測就能夠更確保未來在估稅入的時候更為精確這是solution建設性的solution還有"},{"start":14534.557,"end":14563.343,"text":"如果真的是拼經濟成績超乎預期的稅收超徵的話優先用於弱勢所用擴大國家需求的建設而普發現金不應當常態化這是吳思瑤的三點主張不要再違憲然後我們要強化估測的科學方法然後經濟發展的果實全民共享請問兩位都同意吧"},{"start":14564.807,"end":14576.215,"text":"好 那進入我的下一頁有四個錯 討論公共政策要本於事實在業黨委員所說的第一錯 還稅愚民就是我剛剛說為什麼是假議題這幾年來 就以2025年眾所說我們的減稅新制會增加到208戶適用免稅 我們減壓減稅 對不對"},{"start":14588.124,"end":14616.585,"text":"第二個稅收超出預期不是全部都是中央所拿喔在野黨委員提的5283億這個數字他沒有扣除地方沒有扣除指定用途第三錯稅收超出預期不等於總預算的剩餘數這個是基本的嘛為什麼在野黨委員都還要持續帶錯的方向呢因為要優先用於減少舉債或還債第四錯年度剩餘需要經過決算的程序"},{"start":14617.586,"end":14625.592,"text":"而不是現在就可以來判準我這四點說法是不是都符合真實符合我們的預算運作的法規兩位"},{"start":14627.779,"end":14644.905,"text":"好謝謝我時間有限下一頁我就講這一個還稅愚民這幾年來我們優化稅制更公平為民眾來減稅減負擔尤其是年輕的家庭以單身上班族的所得未達44.6萬免繳稅這是新制史上新高"},{"start":14649.306,"end":14671.062,"text":"雙興家庭年所得未達89.2萬元免繳稅史上新高雙興育有二名幼兒所得未達146.1萬元史上新高我換言之我要說環稅漁民就是我們做的減稅措施我們希望未來的任何的超收"},{"start":14672.023,"end":14687.916,"text":"或者是稅收超出預期普發現金的常態化萬萬不可因為今天時間非常短好 謝謝主席我們後續再討論但是不要再落袋方向也不要再違憲了謝謝謝謝 下面請羅民財委員發言 請來 主席各位主席各位請主席長請主席長請"},{"start":14702.421,"end":14726.422,"text":"主席長委員好你好現在民眾啊都在嗷嗷待哺啊每個人哭哈哈那如果說你領到一萬塊你一萬塊你要準備怎麼使用一萬塊一萬塊如果你領到一萬塊你準備怎麼使用一萬塊啊"},{"start":14735.083,"end":14757.768,"text":"現在因為經濟不景氣很多的小朋友一般家裡要是有兩個小孩兩個小朋友剛好一人一萬就兩萬還有家庭現在的負擔很重爸爸媽媽帶著幼稚園小孩小學一年級的爸爸一萬媽媽一萬加起來四萬"},{"start":14759.994,"end":14786.867,"text":"不無小補啊因為現在物價飆漲啊竹雞養你知道蘿蔔飯現在也起價了我那天去買香蕉啊你猜猜看一根香蕉多少錢香蕉有漲價因為香蕉最近因為它那個颱風的影響所以它產量少反正就是也是要吃水果嘛一根香蕉多少錢你知不知道我記得它十幾塊十幾塊十幾塊"},{"start":14790.034,"end":14817.372,"text":"十幾塊,我要買香蕉一年要七十塊當然是seven的啦但是就是民眾喘不過氣來啦我剛剛講說小孩也需要這一萬塊啊大人也需要啊還有一些老人啊也需要啊每個人都需要,你也沒有去做過民意調查"},{"start":14819.363,"end":14847.834,"text":"不需要的有幾%這個我沒有做那我幫你隨便做一下現場覺得不需要普發獻祭一萬的請舉手你看每個人都覺得需要啊主祭場真的很需要一人發一萬快樂常相伴一人發一萬人人有希望"},{"start":14849.208,"end":14876.918,"text":"這不是很好的一件事嗎你來看看台電這幾年三年四年的時間你們撥給台電多少錢三千多億三千多億你們撥三千多億有經過誰的同意嗎有他有經過預算每一筆都有經過預算嗎有好那你們現在還有一個要撥補準備撥補多少錢"},{"start":14878.766,"end":14901.025,"text":"最佳1000億,114年1000億被刪減掉了那你的意思是說,那撥了這1000億以後如果你敢在這裡保證以後台電不需要再撥補不要再來砍人民的錢那我可能考慮讓你通過喔可是你能答應我嗎"},{"start":14904.834,"end":14929.316,"text":"給了一千億後面還有一千億一千億又再一千億 再一千億坦白講大家都覺得不如意啊所以今天我們看到去年的稅收超徵了五千多億年年都有稅收超徵與其用到其他的地方"},{"start":14930.39,"end":14953.653,"text":"倒不如給民間一點小確幸一點小溫暖主席長你出去有沒有聽到這樣的聲音沒有沒有聽到我現在說給你聽我天天在外面聽到很多聲音我把第一線的聲音告訴你很多人需要這一萬塊"},{"start":14955.831,"end":14963.535,"text":"特別是爸爸媽媽失業的這些小朋友一聽到說大人有一萬小孩有沒有 主計長上次普發現金小朋友有沒有領到錢你沒有小朋友嗎請問小朋友可不可以領到一萬塊"},{"start":14983.988,"end":15008.515,"text":"有啦,上次領六千嘛所以說,大人有份,小孩也有份,大部分沒什麼份啦每一個只要中華民國國民剛剛出生的小朋友有沒有一萬塊?也是有啊所以我們不是都一直要鼓勵大家多多生產報國嗎?現在生育率又下降"},{"start":15009.502,"end":15034.049,"text":"你讓這些年輕人他願意生嘛生了至少多少奶粉錢多少補貼一萬塊嘛所以主計長這個一萬塊對你來講可能你覺得不怎麼樣可是我出去大家都很想說因為電價又要再漲了主計長電價會不會漲油 電 水 氣水價會不會漲"},{"start":15039.737,"end":15066.172,"text":"這個他們都還在討論當中啦萬一漲怎麼辦因為台水它也很久都二十幾年都沒有漲是啊所以你水漲嘛電也漲兩個漲了以後帶動萬物飆漲你能不能給一點老百姓一點好的消息就是普發現金一萬啊"},{"start":15068.581,"end":15085.84,"text":"今年來得及吧我記得上次討論那個六千塊普發現金的時候也沒幾個月就發下來了啊上次從討論定案到最後民眾拿到錢大概多少的時間"},{"start":15088.238,"end":15112.14,"text":"一般發現金它大部分是有特殊的一個目的尤其是有特殊的狀況那上次發現金普發現金主要是因為經濟成長的一個狀況不好然後包括是疫後為了鼓勵大家消費所以這個部分才會有特別發現金那所以當初是用特別條例特別條例先經過立法院同意以後然後再"},{"start":15112.74,"end":15139.689,"text":"去編列預算這樣子也是編列特別預算來做支應所以前後花了多少時間這至少因為五年嗎 有沒有有沒有那麼久至少要三個月以上對嘛 三個月嘛所以不是五年也不是三年兩年嘛你很快速度快一點的話大家都可以領到這筆錢啊政府給紅包也不是只有台灣給啊請問主計長"},{"start":15143.055,"end":15171.769,"text":"新加坡有沒有給這個我倒是不是很清楚那有誰清楚主計總署有沒有一個人文武百官有沒有隨便一個人清楚的或者是可以代為回答的沒有關係有沒有香港也有啊你看你沒有回答記者都回答了啊"},{"start":15172.662,"end":15194.847,"text":"香港有 新加坡有 澳門有 美國好像有吧很多地方都有啊所以 竹下你研究一下嘛 是好不好 因為這個是民生需要的 民生議題嘛你剛剛講的有它的道理"},{"start":15195.663,"end":15222.797,"text":"那所有委員提出來也很有道理因為年年稅收都超增那你超增民眾本來就是很期待嘛那你物價又飆漲起碼吃滷肉飯漲那麼多的時候我一萬塊下來我還可以多一顆滷蛋啊真的啦主席你可能不了解民間疾苦"},{"start":15223.786,"end":15247.437,"text":"我們出去跑第一線的時候 大家都很辛苦 熬熬待補就來談經濟成長率好了 去年的經濟成長率是多少4.59那所有民眾領的薪資 它的中位數是多少中位數以這個月宣布的部分是3萬8"},{"start":15248.84,"end":15262.072,"text":"是,台灣現在已經出現一個M型化的社會其實主席長你可以清楚告訴大家國家的GDP真正的來源集中在哪一個產業一般是"},{"start":15267.918,"end":15292.359,"text":"電子半導體其實那個部分就佔了大概百分之六、七十所以另外比較M型中下階的部分其實大家生活很辛苦的啊每個人都是知珠必寄所以拜託主計長你做做好事真的有很多的家庭啊就是需要這一萬塊"},{"start":15294.192,"end":15320.086,"text":"家裡有四個人四萬 家裡有五個人就五萬而且 當家裡的老人長者領到一萬塊的時候年輕人也可以減少一些若干的負擔所以 主席講 接你你可以民意調查做一個民意調查 看看到底需不需要好 謝謝好 謝謝盧秉強委員的發言現在請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":15338.17,"end":15359.91,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請主席長委員好主席長好 辛苦了這個是3月23號在花蓮的一個媒體就是這樣寫主席長 媒體就這樣寫"},{"start":15361.465,"end":15380.02,"text":"主計長陳淑芝也都到場助長除強調中央被煽動的預算也要大家罷免國民黨立法院總召傅坤啟所以這個部分這是民進黨去辦的所以身為主計長你應該去評估"},{"start":15381.943,"end":15402.405,"text":"你現在已經是成為中華民國的主席長第一個去參加政黨辦的一個宣講所以要審慎報告委員 我們是針對政策來宣講其他語言大部分我們也不會聽錯沒有錯 但是這個畢竟是一個政黨的場合我是建議你"},{"start":15403.866,"end":15418.115,"text":"好 我們看今天的議題近年全國實增金額大於付稅預算的情形從2010年一直到2023年 尤其是這幾年都超增稅收"},{"start":15420.854,"end":15435.014,"text":"所以今天特別審查這個預算法的修正,希望修法明定,法定付稅,收入實增數大於預算數三千億以上,政府應還稅一名,普發現金。"},{"start":15436.997,"end":15459.66,"text":"那如果這個法例通過以後就不必再這個還要去另外訂一個特別條例那到時候看要用最佳預算的方式還是什麼都很多的一個途徑所以這個部分呢希望這個政府部門主計總署和財政部能夠支持好我們看這個"},{"start":15462.996,"end":15489.729,"text":"電價審議委員會最近要審議要漲電價大家都很擔心因為這幾年連續漲了四次但是事實上如果我們以總統府賴總統親自聘任的氣候變遷委員會副召集人童子賢 何秀董事長他說核電可以年省N個千億"},{"start":15491.584,"end":15518.418,"text":"N個千億如果按照他的說法是15個千億所以這個部分是一個能源政策的問題所以主席總署也應該提供給台電提供給經濟部相關的這些意見所以這個部分到底我們很擔心呢人民都很擔心所以如果從法律面來看從法律面的話"},{"start":15519.946,"end":15537.673,"text":"法例離島建設條例第十四條有規定撥補給台電因為省金輪、馬竹、澎湖離島、蘭嶼還有立島這些應該由政府、中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":15539.373,"end":15564.507,"text":"編列預算也就是經濟部應該編列預算撥補所以從這邊來去處理而不要再去漲漲電價到時候如果經濟部或是主席總書也可以去協調這個經濟部來照這個法例好我們接下來談這個原住民委員會編列的基本設施維持費跟主席講說明"},{"start":15566.162,"end":15575.714,"text":"這個基本設施維持費是我在園民會服務的時候我去協調當時的主計總署行政院主計總署"},{"start":15577.352,"end":15596.857,"text":"那時候是張俊雄當任行政院院長的時候要編列這個基本設施維持費謝謝當時的主計總署同意編列就開始編列了這個是一個最基本的原鄉很需要的所以它相關的經費額度都有"},{"start":15597.937,"end":15616.366,"text":"已經114年度來講,編列了6億4千萬元。這個已經立法院通過了,沒有刪,也沒有凍結。現在為什麼要談這個呢?現在是不是要請主席長、主席總書要跟人民會講,不應該發這樣的文啊。"},{"start":15619.571,"end":15641.405,"text":"去年的時候 大家都知道會行文給各縣市 鄉鎮你要先義為編列預算你要編多少 去年就已經分配了結果2月27號 延命會竟然發文給各鄉鎮各鄉鎮就覺得 延鄉就覺得很奇怪怎麼會被砍了50%啊"},{"start":15645.791,"end":15650.421,"text":"事實上基本設施維持費第一個沒有刪減"},{"start":15651.909,"end":15669.793,"text":"沒有凍結所以這個部分的協調主席總署趕快請主席總署趕快協調嚴密會發文好不好好謝謝主席長可以嗎這個部分是院長有發布院長有發布說是要凍結計劃型補助50%那這個部分是因為我們有一個3.636的這個部分所以這個部分我們是需要再協調這個部分到底是要怎麼三減是這樣子"},{"start":15682.376,"end":15704.363,"text":"這個並沒有凍結並沒有差距好 謝謝 謝謝 謝謝施力修再說我們好了鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在王國威 王國威 王國威 委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉 委員不在蔡奕宇 蔡奕宇 蔡奕宇 委員不在陳培宇 陳培宇 陳培宇 委員不在葉元之 委員請質詢"},{"start":15721.92,"end":15724.962,"text":"主席好 麻煩請找主席長 謝謝陳主席 請委員好主席長 剛剛有聽您講就是說你預估我們的物價指數在不考慮水電漲的情況之下CPI是1.94%對不對是那如果水電漲之後你會預估多少 會破2%嗎"},{"start":15744.547,"end":15762.561,"text":"大概原則上還有其他一些變動的因素如果一起考量大概可能會超過百分之二會超過百分之二超過百分之二的話就是大概一百塊平均漲兩塊的意思但是其實主委長我覺得一直講這個CPI我覺得很多人聽起來會很"},{"start":15763.982,"end":15784.607,"text":"不是滋味為什麼呢因為實際上大部分的人都在外食嘛然後實際跟名聲有關的他的漲幅絕對不會只有2%啦我就舉一個今天才公告的一個大家很多有些人蠻喜歡吃的一個胖老爹胖老爹他今天公告他的人氣商品雞排從85塊要漲到100塊那這絕對就不是漲2%這漲多少了這漲15%以上了那雞腿54塊變60塊是漲一成以上"},{"start":15793.895,"end":15810.203,"text":"所以實際上民眾一般面對的比較長的民生性的消費它的漲幅都不是2%2%是怎麼算出來的2%有時候會把一些那種電器啊3C產品啊算進來嘛那些東西本來是1900就會折舊折舊物價就會下跌嘛"},{"start":15810.783,"end":15839.883,"text":"所以這樣的平均我覺得沒有辦法反映到人的真實的心理狀態啦那所以其實剛剛我聽到非常多的委員呼籲希望主席長也可以支持我們這一次我們稅收有超徵嘛另外我們也有一些預算把關的部分有刪減嘛把這個部分還稅於民一個人發一萬塊讓大家可以心理上面可以因應這個物價上漲我不知道主席長你願意支持嗎"},{"start":15841.083,"end":15866.354,"text":"我跟委員報告剛剛談到所謂那個物價的問題因為我們總共物價有三百四十幾項在做調查然後比較民生物資比較相關就是重要的是七項那剛剛委員談到的大概就是所謂的外食會外食會的這個部是比較偏高的那再來就是主要是水果那水果是因為颱風的關係它會向上漲但是現在它已經下降了這樣然後元月份它是2.66"},{"start":15867.995,"end":15887.066,"text":"二月份是1.58那重點元月份比較高是因為過年的時候因為你現在是還沒有把那個電價因素算進來電價因素還沒有放進來電價因素算進來的話那個漲的一定就更高了嘛一定就是而且很多東西都疊疊就是層層疊加上去啦"},{"start":15887.466,"end":15913.878,"text":"是 因為電價也還在討論啦 還沒有被確認所以目前他二月份是1.58他就是要降價所以我只是要說這個物價的調漲絕對不會是像你想的那麼簡單一點多啦沒有啦 但是電價還有水價欸還有很多價錢欸 還有交通費用欸都算上去台鐵也要漲價所以很多加上去之後那個物價一定是會漲到不是你現在可以預估的狀況啦"},{"start":15916.299,"end":15937.606,"text":"其實大家回過頭來都還是在講一件事情啦就是希望說能夠減輕我們消費者的負擔可以還稅於米一萬塊那第二個我跟組長請教一下因為之前卓院長有說因為行政院各部會有一些預算被凍結了所以要凍結地方的50%的補助那這個部分應該都是計劃型補助為主對不對"},{"start":15942.386,"end":15970.666,"text":"原則上是計劃性補助為主那計劃性補助因為有很多計劃都是之前核定而且是分年逐步在做那你把那個凍結之後呢很可能會影響到他的計劃的推行其實這個對地方來說是影響很大那當然我覺得主委長你們的意思是說因為立法院凍結了我很多部會的30%啊我被凍結了我又不知道能不能解凍所以我當然就先凍結你地方啊你們的邏輯是這樣嘛"},{"start":15971.547,"end":15993.684,"text":"不是啦委員我再跟你說明一下因為我們被刪減了939通案刪減那我們按照比例刪減之後刪減303那還有一個通案刪減636還沒有刪減那這個部分再刪減是有困難的所以這個部分因為沒有人去刪地方的建設的這個部分你們現在主要凍結地方的"},{"start":15994.324,"end":16013.169,"text":"的原因都是因為你們有一些預算被凍結了你覺得既然中央沒有解凍那怎麼可以先撥給地方呢這個跟刪減無關啦因為沒有人去刪減這些東西啦主要都是凍結嘛那凍結可以解凍啊那現在我不知道說主想這邊為什麼有一些解凍你可以先做嘛"},{"start":16013.849,"end":16032.732,"text":"當然有的你會講說因為有的部會被凍結30%我怎麼知道什麼時候會用到30%可是不是這樣啊前置作業可以先做啊就像總預算總預算你這八月送到立法院可是你三四月開始作業了嘛所以其實這件事情我相信啦如果說你的預算是用在補助地方"},{"start":16033.573,"end":16046.687,"text":"大家不會去不願意解凍 一定很快就解凍了所以我希望說 主計長是不是可以趕快針對這個部分否則的話你會影響到地方建設的推行我們會把這種建議轉達好不好 好 謝謝謝謝月娥的質詢 下一位請徐心凌委員質詢"},{"start":16063.977,"end":16067.76,"text":"主席本席請主記長主記長請主席主記長以及在座各位官員大家好我們今天不是在這裡爭論技術細節也不是討論一筆盈餘怎麼分我們要先問一個最根本的問題你們知不知道你們到底用的是誰的錢"},{"start":16093.237,"end":16106.989,"text":"要對誰交代我們的執政黨說 人民是頭家用的是人民的錢 要對人民交代政府年年超徵稅收 人民卻無從分享"},{"start":16108.614,"end":16130.584,"text":"稅制口頭喊著進步 但是操作卻接近壟斷所以接下來本席要就主席長 您在報告中提的七大說法我不知道是邏輯錯誤還是政治錯位還是您受了多大的壓力 我要一一來破解第一個 超增只是預估誤差 並非常態發生"},{"start":16132.185,"end":16156.863,"text":"年年都有意外 那就不是意外 也不是例外它變成常態了我們有所謂的隨機誤差 系統誤差你這個已經變成連續四年的不是例外 是一個模式 它是系統誤差所以你預算長年的保守低估本席合理懷疑你是結構性的掩飾手法"},{"start":16157.642,"end":16175.257,"text":"所以我們希望會後今天本席的諮詢你們要一一回應第二個即使超收仍要扣還本與短差政府未必有餘為何預算從未如實反映出這個支出和還本的結構"},{"start":16177.229,"end":16202.279,"text":"為何超收必須要彌補過往的黑洞卻沒有看到你們向人民報賬人民多繳的是稅所以政府必須向人民交代這第二點第三個債務有還本機制無需再設還稅規定正因為還本有法源所以還稅更應該有制度啊"},{"start":16204.18,"end":16225.986,"text":"我們目前沒有任何的超收返還的條文也沒有比例優先原則或者是用途的限制完全是行政部門想還就還不想就撐這是絕對不可以的所以如果預算照你們這樣做會變成行政權的口袋錢包"},{"start":16227.066,"end":16254.314,"text":"所以預算如果不受立法的節制超收就會變成你們合法的掠奪這是第三點第四個 稅計等於虛代審計 尚未定案那誰說沒有定案就不能夠先設原則我們要的是建立制度性的比例機制審計確定後可以依法撥付啊"},{"start":16255.492,"end":16279.988,"text":"如果遇到緊急情況 也可以訂定合理的調整條件所以主席長 這不是不能 是你們不想再來更離譜的 第五點並非年年有騰雲 所以不宜常態化處理所以難道因為並非年年有颱風所以我們就不需要立法防災嗎不用立防災法嗎"},{"start":16281.209,"end":16300.36,"text":"所以正因為不是年年有,才更需要有制度的規範如果沒有制度的原則性安排,就沒有財政治理的永續性根基第六點,立法會限制財政彈性,無法因應變局"},{"start":16302.06,"end":16317.272,"text":"彈性當然重要啊 但是你彈性凌駕原則那你的結果就是特別預算 特別氾濫還有國會監督邊緣化 在被你造謠 重傷 污衊"},{"start":16318.837,"end":16338.832,"text":"那不能讓民意排除於財政決策之外 本席要再次提醒 人民是頭家你們用的是人民的納稅錢 所以你理應還稅於民 你理應向人民來報告所以我們不是要削弱行政的效率 我們是希望補強財政的正義"},{"start":16342.847,"end":16368.817,"text":"最後第七點普發現金因靠特別條例不能制度化那我想請問為什麼企業減稅可以編常態預算科技國防追加可以進入年度預算人民退稅只能靠臨時條例嗎所以當人民退稅成為例外政府編偏財就會變成慣例就會變成慣例所以我們最後主張正義財政正義的"},{"start":16371.553,"end":16390.556,"text":"五大理由 超徵因涉還稅機制不可任意支配建立透明計算與分配機制 還稅愚民法治化 減少政策的任意性財政不能靠施捨 財政是人民的權利歸還"},{"start":16392.028,"end":16403.759,"text":"最後發現金不再只能是政治操作不然每逢選舉我們就出現了神秘盈餘最後強化國會預算跟決算的聯動"},{"start":16407.963,"end":16423.119,"text":"設計預算決算對照條款國會對於超收資金運用具追蹤與再分配的權限最後我結論一下讓我們能夠推動一部真正屬於人民的預算法"},{"start":16424.02,"end":16444.709,"text":"讓盈餘不只是口號是正義的回饋讓財政不只是表格與數字是政府與人民的契約信任請主計長您針對本席今天的破解能夠給我們報告一一回應 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員的質詢下一位請黃國昌黃國昌我們不在"},{"start":16450.592,"end":16474.986,"text":"報告委員會 今日政績發言委員經已訓導完畢現在進行討論四項請議事人員宣讀今日審查預算法增訂八十一條之一條文草案等三案提案內容預計宣讀時間兩分鐘宣讀後以後我們就進行協商我們就休息五分鐘那同時宣讀"},{"start":16478.263,"end":16502.258,"text":"宣讀本院委員擬拒預算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案等三案委員王洪威等人提案第八十一條之一法定負稅收入時徵數大於預算數三千億元時除依第七十三條規定辦理外應優先辦理普發現金還稅與名委員林德福等人提案第八十一條之一"},{"start":16503.098,"end":16532.338,"text":"法定負稅收入時徵數大於預算數10除依第73條規定辦理外應優先辦理以下事項並由行政院提出追加追減預算調整之一減少特別預算與中央政府總預算債務制局界二擴大照顧經濟或社會弱勢者三益助勞工保險基金公務員員退休撫恤基金國民年金保險基金全民健康保險基金"},{"start":16533.178,"end":16556.832,"text":"前項優先辦理事項之追加追減預算金額或比例由主計總署令定之委員賴世保等人提案第八十一條之一法定稅入稅科收入全年時增數額達到當年度預算變劣數百分之一百二十十除依第七十三條規定辦理外應辦理普發現金宣讀完畢"},{"start":16708.72,"end":16728.74,"text":"現在我又會報告跟本案無關的新陳觀念可以先行離席所以只留下主計總署跟財政部的觀念就可以了還有司法院長官要留下來因為有關於法律問題好 現在進行協商"},{"start":16755.046,"end":16762.249,"text":"好 現在我們就請官員列席在這裡好不好 官員陳主席長 還有財政部的院次長"},{"start":16782.822,"end":16800.738,"text":"稍等一下那個 輪廁長上廁所 稍等一下法務部留下來啦 法務部"},{"start":16804.668,"end":16804.988,"text":"這個有點窒息"},{"start":16835.552,"end":16837.393,"text":"稍等一下 因為廁場在廁所所以要這..."},{"start":16856.698,"end":16872.374,"text":"好 剛才我們勉勵的賴昭偉跟我指示說民進黨團就一位代表發言發言完畢由我們處理好不好可以的話我們就請看你要判哪一位來 請"},{"start":16875.031,"end":16903.891,"text":"我們今天早上的質詢都有針對這個問題講本黨團非常清楚的表達我們反對這個修正案因為正確的做法不是這樣這個法律我們都認為有違憲的嫌疑很嚴重那這個預算的使用本院只有審議權沒有提案權你用立法的方式包裝這個預算的提案這是我們不能接受的所以我們本黨團反對講得很清楚 謝謝"},{"start":16904.972,"end":16907.438,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們國民黨團的一位委員代表"},{"start":16912.679,"end":16939.827,"text":"在現在這個經濟環境民眾是苦哈哈啦那事實上全民都期待經濟成長共享成果就是普發現金那麼在過去的歷史裡面我們也看到有所謂的老農津貼等等等等很多主動權都是從立法院這邊來發起的所以這個是毫無疑慮啦就是端看"},{"start":16941.26,"end":16957.73,"text":"政府有沒有辦法體恤人民的苦現在因為M型化的社會真的在基層很多人很多人對這個一萬塊的紅包是殷切期盼的不信的話你去做一個民意調查"},{"start":16958.55,"end":16974.457,"text":"我大概這邊有一個調查的數字是超過百分之七十幾以上都是贊成政府如果有稅計剩餘有稅收超徵的時候是用來普發現金不是只有台灣有每個地方都 很多地方都有"},{"start":16975.537,"end":16996.768,"text":"剛剛已經有人回答我說在新加坡也有在澳門、香港以及日本、美國幾個地方都有這樣的案例所以我們也希望這個是變成超正論化就常態化謝謝好 謝謝我們還是尊重行政院的長官主席長也請你講幾句話 來"},{"start":17002.297,"end":17020.349,"text":"郭委員好 這個部分重點就是說它在預算法裡面增訂條文就是說應該要辦理普發現金或者應該要去做追加減項目的一些這個這樣子導致它整個一個條文的一個限制以後的一個"},{"start":17021.81,"end":17040.543,"text":"政府政策一個那個彈性呢他就減少所以這個部分呢我們還是應該而且他第二個就是說他不是每一年都有剩餘所以這個部分我們還是希望說這個部分是不要再制定這樣增加制定這樣的一個內容以上好謝謝我們請財政部的蘭次長蘭長官請你發言"},{"start":17047.092,"end":17061.601,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好關於這個案子 我想就是說去年當然稅收是還不錯但是稅收好不表示說我們的財政就是好"},{"start":17062.762,"end":17078.339,"text":"那我特別跟各位報告就是從101年到112年我們這十幾年只有三年是剩餘的而且剩餘只有一點點其他幾乎都是次制"},{"start":17080.566,"end":17108.202,"text":"所以如果說要修正說大於就是說我們的時增數超過預算數3000億元以上或者是達到預算數百分之二十就要普發現金的話那沒有考慮到相關的財政的這個能量那我是擔心說到時候可能需要用舉債來合法這是一點"},{"start":17109.362,"end":17136.877,"text":"另外可能就因為這個東西不是每年都有啦這個都是一種就是等於是去年剛好有這種稅收比較多的這種情況這個是估算的問題估算的問題它不是說真正有這樣的一個資源可以來發放做簡單說明好 謝謝市長就按照我們剛剛的協定就都不講話了我們就進行處理各位贊成"},{"start":17139.498,"end":17166.484,"text":"這個我提一個就是本案全案保留因為大家意見不一樣朝委的意見跟行政部門都不一樣全案保留到院會去協商就這樣全案保留好不好我們要求你這個提案出來我們要求表決因為我們要留在議論裡面各位就你們團隊我們表決嘛好 那贊成我的提案的請舉手"},{"start":17170.342,"end":17198.877,"text":"六位 我們會連秀反對我提案的舉手六位 六位 六位 六位記名清楚喔 有有有 記名清楚沒有沒有 你不能舉手你贊成的 反對一二三四五六 六位 六位反對六比六 按照議事規則主席這一票我投贊成 所以七比六我們全案"},{"start":17199.677,"end":17209.427,"text":"保留送到送出委員會會議詢問啦拜託會議紀錄裡面誰贊成主席可以可以誰反對要負責每一個人的名字要寫要對整個會議負責好不好"},{"start":17216.288,"end":17241.557,"text":"謝謝最後我講一句話各位可以要離開可以離開就是如果沒有到達百分之一百二就沒有這個問題沒有超過3000億也沒有這個問題所以各位這個題目很軟這個題目很軟沒有異性那個硬的在特別條例不在這裡沒有超過80%沒有超過3000億這個就不算數了就這樣子了好 三位"},{"start":17244.582,"end":17247.424,"text":"好 報告委員會協商完畢 應請議事人員宣讀協商期論"},{"start":17274.229,"end":17292.801,"text":"宣讀協商結論委員王宏輝等人委員林德福等人及委員賴世寶等人分別擬據預算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案均保留送用會處理宣讀完畢好 各位有沒有異議沒有異議我們就照協商結論通過報告委員會"},{"start":17294.819,"end":17308.123,"text":"預算法增訂第八十一條之一 條文草案等三案 並按審查完據 理據審查報告提報願為討論 願為討論前須交由動態協商 願為討論所有本席補充說明 請問各位對以上決議有異議"},{"start":17316.741,"end":17332.872,"text":"每一位本月會議議程已進行完畢談論有不在場委員補題書面資料一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理另外另外很重要的"},{"start":17333.752,"end":17359.479,"text":"民眾黨又跟我寫生過他們本來要提動議但是他們呢接受我的建議直接提案子在下個禮拜五會在這個禮拜五會到議會一讀之後進副法讀我們支持進副法讀所以所以最後我還沒了呢我還沒了呢等一下啦我還沒說呢"},{"start":17361.657,"end":17385.175,"text":"所以跟各位報告就是我們在進行車外協商的時候會有民眾黨團的版本我特別宣告然後列入紀錄好不好除非民眾黨團不提版本你們提版本我們就列進來就是一起協商就是做這樣一個決定所以各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就"},{"start":17387.799,"end":17396.909,"text":"假如有不在場委員補題書面質詢一邊列入紀錄刊登公報並請醫事人員協助處理我們休息 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0a9748b98ef8991b4be2be2b26df085f912e500bd5a8d385b40c3ce8f2effcf9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:06:00 - 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欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1452.253,"end":1452.334,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1720.923,"end":1721.003,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1788.285,"end":1797.197,"text":"好那我們現在請我們組密來報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員14人一組法定人數"},{"start":1798.963,"end":1809.012,"text":"現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄議法院第11屆第三會及經濟委員會第三次全體委員會議事錄時間114年3月19日星期三9時至12時57分114年3月20日星期四9時1分至13時12分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員林丹樺等14人列席委員陳倍宇等31人"},{"start":1822.944,"end":1839.343,"text":"列席人員114年3月19日星期三國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜清暨相關人員114年3月20日星期四經濟部部長郭志輝暨相關人員主席謝昭吉韋英鳳114年3月19日星期三報告事項"},{"start":1840.024,"end":1859.032,"text":"宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告以後該況並備質詢國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜卿報告後委員林大法等22人提出質詢經由國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜卿及相關人員及其答覆決定以登記文"},{"start":1859.952,"end":1877.539,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外區域經營發言完畢詢答結束二委員張家俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢和位及答覆部分請相關人員於週內書面答覆並複製本會一百一四年三月十日星期四報告事項邀請經"},{"start":1880.144,"end":1908.922,"text":"經濟部部長列席報告業務概況並被質詢經濟部部長郭志輝報告後委員林德化等二十二人提出質詢經由經濟部部長郭志輝及相關人員及其答覆決定已登記的發言委員除不在場者外區域均已發言完畢詢答結束二委員羅志強陳昭明林德福牛許廷及蔡易所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複資本會商會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1911.256,"end":1937.371,"text":"好 請問各位同仁 上次會議事錄有錯誤沒有的話 好 議事錄確定那我們現在進行討論四項 請宣讀審查行政院行刑審議 電業法部分條件修正草案二 本院委員賴世保等17人擬拒電業法第74條條件修正草案三 本院委員林大化等18人擬拒電業法第6條條件修正草案四 本院委員林"},{"start":1938.271,"end":1955.405,"text":"楊瓊瑩等20人擬拒 訂閱法第6條 挑選修正草案五 本院委員邱毅英等16人擬拒 訂閱法第6條 挑選修正草案六 本院委員邱志偉等20人擬拒 訂閱法部分挑選修正草案七 本院委員鄭振銓等19人擬拒 訂閱法第74條 挑選修正草案 宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1958.393,"end":1973.343,"text":"那我們本日議程討論四項是電力法的部分條文跟第六條以及第七十四條條文的修正草案總計有七個版本那我們現在先介紹我們在場與會的委員有我們邱義營邱委員我們楊瓊英楊委員"},{"start":1984.453,"end":2007.947,"text":"那我們現在列席的官員有我們經濟部部長郭智輝郭部長我們經濟部法治師師長羅翠玲羅師長經濟部國營事業管理師副師長劉啟孝副師長我們能源署代理署長李軍理代理署長"},{"start":2011.062,"end":2038.572,"text":"台灣電力公司董事長曾文森曾董事長台電總經理王耀廷王總經理跟我們法務部的法治司副司長謝志明好那我們現在先請提案的委員來說明提案的要旨那我們第一個請我們邱毅英委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":2049.653,"end":2076.282,"text":"主席各位同仁今天本席提出電業法第6條的修正草案此次修正是因應台灣電力公司截至今年3月累計虧損高達4301億元之現實狀況106年1月修正公布的電業法增訂第6條第5項明確要求台電公司要在法案公布後的6年內轉型為控股的母公司並且將會在2026年1月1號以前"},{"start":2079.423,"end":2106.891,"text":"向下分割成立发电、输配电、售电三家子公司当初立法的目的是为了引入竞争打破台电长期垂直整合垄断的格局落实多元参与的电业自由化目标该条文并授权行政院视电力市场发展的状况延后实施但是延后以两次为限第一次最长是两年第二次最长是一年行政院的确"},{"start":2107.671,"end":2131.151,"text":"确实两度核准台电延后分割时程所以展延已经用尽然而考量我国整体电力市场发展以及2050净零碳排的趋势本席认为现阶段应该透过发电输配电以及受电端的整合有效协调与调度方能维持电力供需平衡以及达到稳定供电的目标"},{"start":2132.848,"end":2159.24,"text":"這個修正案提出後將允許輸配電業在經電業管制機關核准的情況下兼營公用受電業並維持輸配電業及兼營其他事業時仍需以不影響業務經營以及公平競爭為原則這項政策大轉變的背景在於近年國際能源危機和國內能源轉型的目標下我們重新評估了電力市場結構的最佳模式"},{"start":2160.04,"end":2189.387,"text":"所以此次的修法将协助建构安全强韧的电力系统有助于我国在全球近邻排放的浪潮中保持竞争力与稳定性并有效减缓现阶段台电公司巨额亏损的问题避免冲击全民用电的安全跟品质以上是本席提案的简要说明敬请支持让我们共同确保台湾电力公司系统的永续发展谢谢好谢谢邱委员那下一位提案说明请杨琼英委员说明"},{"start":2203.084,"end":2219.18,"text":"有鉴于俄乌战争之后,能源价格高涨,包括英国、日本、新加坡等国家都有民营电力公司倒闭"},{"start":2220.001,"end":2246.799,"text":"那法國是讓法國的電力公司買回民間的股份德國是把部分的能源公司收歸國有顯見全球的趨勢已有所調整而我國在2050年淨零碳排的這個目標政策之下需要大型的中和電業來執行綠電囤購以及新能源爐地熱的開發跟投資"},{"start":2250.061,"end":2273.407,"text":"那麼若由民間小型的公司來執行恐影響我國能源的安全跟穩定那唯有透過台電將發電電網以及受電端來做一個整合方便有效的來維持電力供應的一個平衡達到穩定供電的這個目標"},{"start":2274.267,"end":2281.275,"text":"那目前我們的電眼法第六條的規定台電最晚需要在2060年1月1日轉行為控股的這個母公司那所以呢我們也已經展演兩次文獻"},{"start":2290.365,"end":2292.206,"text":"這個規定時間已經用盡了所以本席來提出電源法第6條的一個修正那這個主要的目的也就是將第6條條文原先輸配電源不得兼營我們修正為輸配電源兼營發電源受電"},{"start":2313.311,"end":2336.064,"text":"以及電業呢以內及其他的這個事業我們希望能夠完整的一個作業讓我們的供電更加的穩定以及符合2050年的碳排在目前全世界的一個接軌也敬請各位委員我們行政部門大家來支持 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員那下一位請林戴華委員提案說明"},{"start":2345.144,"end":2364.68,"text":"好那我們現在就請我們經濟部郭智輝部長就行政院版本以及委員的提案進行報告主席"},{"start":2365.714,"end":2392.3,"text":"各位委員 各位女士 各位先生今天列席貴委員會就審查行政院及立法院所提電業法部分修條文修正草案共期案代表本部進行報告深感榮幸本部緊究電業法研修政策及大院各委員會各委員所凝聚草案內容檢討報告如下敬請各位委員先進不吝視角"},{"start":2394.452,"end":2415.5,"text":"電源法之研修政策說明為持續健全電力市場環境同時呼應2050淨零轉型的活絡綠電交易市場等目標本部寧定電源法部分條文修正長案包含以下四大重點一 放寬再生能源受電交易限制"},{"start":2416.34,"end":2440.879,"text":"允許再生能源受電業互相交易透過同行調貨方式活絡綠電市場降低餘電量二 納管儲能與需量反應將並往行儲能及需量反應等電力供應資源納入管理透過法令確保市場秩序降低業者風險三 強化電力交易市場中立性"},{"start":2442.14,"end":2452.708,"text":"規定電業管制機關因應市場發展檢討電力交易平台強化其運作中立性並設立具獨立性質交易單位並新增對應罰則"},{"start":2455.669,"end":2483.501,"text":"使台電公司維持現行經營形態考慮國際政治及疫情影響強化電力系統穩定台電公司將繼續整合發輸配售資源有助於確保電力系統穩定及維持供電目標本次大院委員凝聚修正案本部說明如下有關賴世保委員及鄭振勤委員提案修正電業法第74條建議對"},{"start":2485.563,"end":2500.639,"text":"未符合電力排蛋係數基準之公用受電業一提案之裁罰公式計劃計算罰款數額本部認為現行電業法已訂有罰員範圍150萬至1500萬且委員提案之計算公式可能導致罰員金額過拒"},{"start":2506.505,"end":2534.608,"text":"恐違反比例原則以公用售電業113年度售電量計算還原金額高達7,170萬元為現行上限4.7倍恐對業者造成過重負擔有關林代化委員、楊瓊瑩委員、邱盈瑩委員及邱志偉委員提案電業法部分條文修正草案部分與本部修法方向相近懇請委員支持本部所提修正案"},{"start":2535.799,"end":2563.814,"text":"我国实现2050近年转型现行政策聚焦提升再生能源占比推动前瞻技术与电网升级随绿能交易成为市场主轴电网调度将面临极端气候等挑战为此政府推动电业法修法排除绿电交易障碍引进民间资源强化电网韧性并加强市场监制确保稳定发展"},{"start":2564.614,"end":2590.915,"text":"同時維持台電公司現行經營模式以整合電力資源達成淨零轉型面對國際能源趨勢變化政府將動態調整法規強化監管確保市場穩定與電業永續發展最後感謝大院諸位委員對我國電業發展所提供之建言敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝好謝謝部長"},{"start":2594.264,"end":2622.527,"text":"那本日議程討論事項合併詢答委員質詢前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘非本會委員3分鐘上午10點截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位林戴華委員發言好有請部長好請部長"},{"start":2632.262,"end":2661.665,"text":"好 部長那本席呢一貫主張就是台電要以綜合電業的模式繼續經營那當然我們有一些修法背景對於這個綜合電有疑慮的這些人士我覺得還是要回歸一下一些歷史的爬梳在106年的時候電業法的修法為了順應當時國際電業自由化所以是以開放綠電自由化再來開放火電自由化的框架所以第一階段我們開放了綠電自由化"},{"start":2663.226,"end":2688.939,"text":"2025綠能發電占比提升至20%之目標在目前來講今年確實在高峰端確實也能夠達成20%的綠能發電占比是要給我們經濟部所有的同仁給予掌聲真的是不容易的工作那第二階段我們再來開放否電自由化所以呢也就開始了106年的修法網廠分離分割台電為電力市場全面開放做準備"},{"start":2689.659,"end":2709.466,"text":"但是有幾個重點這也是本席要支持綜合電業的原因第一個地緣政治跟國際趨勢的轉變在三年前惡霧戰爭地緣政治的動盪以及2050近年轉型的目標這也是在您的報告當中有提國際對電業經營的失約整個氾濫大轉由推動電力市場的自由競爭轉為強化管制與整合我們來看這三個國家第一個核能大國法國"},{"start":2719.409,"end":2745.33,"text":"他的发电由政府持股已经达84%了二无战争之后为了稳定他们发电的财务前年2023年他们全部的国有化百分百那英国呢是最早倡议电业自由化所以他们根本就没有这个国营事业了好就所以国力电力全部的民营化二无战争之后竟然是人民跟政党的起因"},{"start":2745.911,"end":2762.811,"text":"人員公司國有化而在去年的時候他成立的國營他們這國營當中是做綜合電業跟規劃設計而且在另外成立的一家公司叫做國有再生人員公司他連再生人員他都要統合的"},{"start":2764.273,"end":2783.137,"text":"來做一個整合的平台就這家公司新加坡他是一個長久以來就是以他們的新加坡電力公司購買天然氣那過往他們購買天然氣就是這家公司自己去買新加坡電力公司去買現在在去年他修法中央政府來買中央政府還成立了中央燃氣機構統一為這個發電公司來購買天然氣"},{"start":2788.198,"end":2804.413,"text":"好另外第二點本席會支持綜合電業的原因因為也只有綜合電才能統整各種不同電力的效應不管風光水力天然氣好我們看再生能源的發電量其實已經打國家總用電的11.7%了這個是可以預估這樣的再生能源廠及裝置持續"},{"start":2810.258,"end":2822.008,"text":"未來這種再生能源方電比值會持續升高但是綠電的間歇特性供電的穩定當然需要做統整的運用所以唯有透過發電端電網端受電端整合在一塊"},{"start":2825.871,"end":2840.256,"text":"才能有效的維持電力供應如果我的發電電網跟售電是分開的情況之下本息很難想像在供電當這三家公司是以盈利為主的時候根本不會配合我經濟部不會配合國家政策去做統整的運用"},{"start":2841.656,"end":2850.682,"text":"第三個本席會支持綜合電業的原因是只有綜合電業才能支持國家的人員政策穩定產業發展我國產業的特性為出口導向型的製造業勢必面臨低碳跟成本競爭力的要求如何確保民生穩定產業發展跟經濟成長這是國家的首重課題也唯有以綜合電業來"},{"start":2865.951,"end":2885.709,"text":"存續的這個國營事業才會優先支持政策當我分割這三家的時候這個一定政府說我們有哪些產業政策你必須投入譬如說我們說電力韌性那你這家公司的輸配電你要不要投入他絕對不投入"},{"start":2886.149,"end":2894.114,"text":"因為太貴了我的偏鄉光是只要偏鄉地方他們哪要用這些成本下去做投資我們整個電力電網是花了千億這家公司怎麼可能單獨花千億所以為了支持我們的產業政策民生穩定經濟成長本席是支持綜合電業的"},{"start":2904.841,"end":2916.436,"text":"另外呢 主責機關這個部分呢 我要特別給人員署一個掌聲但是呢 我也給他一個克責 就是要給他克與在一些責任那這件事情需要經濟部這邊給他一個靠山啦"},{"start":2920.501,"end":2937.177,"text":"怎麼說呢我們是屬於高度能源進口的需求的國家過去能源署他叫管哪家公司就夠了管台電中油可以掌握國家所有的人員供給電業自由化所衍生的再生能源業者能源署應該強化目的事業管理機制所以呢"},{"start":2937.797,"end":2959.943,"text":"但是我要提到地方政府對能源的專業是相對欠缺的新科技對於環境跟原生產業乃至於區域發展民間的宣達都需要能源署在中央統籌執行好再精準的講我的再生能源大部分的再生能源廠都是國家權利授予的不管是我離岸風電光電廠包括地熱"},{"start":2962.183,"end":2975.108,"text":"這都是國家大概20年或25年到了之後我們政府要續約但是我們現在有沒有數據完全沒數據喔我們現在這個國家授予的這些地區來講包括豐利"},{"start":2978.689,"end":2984.251,"text":"太陽包括地震所產生的衝擊這些看起來是誰該做應該是環境部可是環境部要管不管電力效應不管當我這個場域當中這些的天然資源所帶來的數據當我對於我電力效應的這樣的一個綜合的一個評估或者是觀察有沒有好我為什麼說到地方政府也有關係我的這個養殖場"},{"start":3006.758,"end":3011.623,"text":"全部都是地方政府啊我養殖場的數據相關周邊的數據我為什麼要提供給你給你能源署呢所以我講到這個工作當你已經要預見到我20、25年的時候我需要再做這個重新的再做續約的時候"},{"start":3024.755,"end":3037.765,"text":"或者我現在的人員政策我有沒有需要透過數據能夠五年十一元的十年來我需要做一些調整都這需要數據的支持那我說需要經濟部多給人員組這個支持"},{"start":3039.947,"end":3061.237,"text":"跨部會啊 跨農業部 跨環境部 跨地方政府這個東西你叫一個能源署他該做我認為他因為電力這些東西都是要影響我電力的效益但是他要有哪一個單位或機構特別來做這個是部長這邊你可能要這個等一下簡單回應一下"},{"start":3063.458,"end":3068.639,"text":"最後具體主張台電是以綜合電業的方式來繼續經營這是本協專強烈要求人員署評估建立再生人員場域各級數據監理機制並規劃台電場域先行事辦到底我哪些台電所的離岸風電或光電廠我們就先行事辦這些數據的整合因為我剛才講還有設計跨部會跟中央地方才能夠有力要求我們未來民營電廠應該比照辦理"},{"start":3090.703,"end":3105.355,"text":"部長您怎麼看謝謝委員指教我們會在一個月裡面提供這些資料給這個委員參考好謝謝部長我們請加油謝謝好謝謝戴華委員那下一位請鄭正前委員發言主席我想請一下郭部長好請部長"},{"start":3128.072,"end":3142.864,"text":"委員好部長好因為我們今天主席特別排的是電業法的一個修法那我想說電業法在2016年提出2017年修法的時候其實大概提出了四個主要的一個長網分離的一個理由"},{"start":3143.784,"end":3167.875,"text":"第一個就是打破台電壟斷 要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎"},{"start":3169.426,"end":3173.971,"text":"報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員跟你做一個詳細報告"},{"start":3176.266,"end":3203.44,"text":"是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的"},{"start":3203.8,"end":3220.383,"text":"OK 理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當時張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨團其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點"},{"start":3221.604,"end":3241.473,"text":"那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢"},{"start":3242.794,"end":3251.797,"text":"那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了"},{"start":3253.43,"end":3278.792,"text":"所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是 報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個"},{"start":3281.554,"end":3290.174,"text":"剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合"},{"start":3290.95,"end":3311.592,"text":"第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO"},{"start":3312.313,"end":3337.342,"text":"整合電力調度、電力系統、天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃並將成立國有能源公司這個GV Energy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之百 部長這個部分到時候你再提供給我因為你在講英國中央 英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個"},{"start":3338.103,"end":3351.921,"text":"電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我直接再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態"},{"start":3355.606,"end":3377.146,"text":"那現在八年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展"},{"start":3377.546,"end":3397.251,"text":"也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法"},{"start":3399.4,"end":3419.157,"text":"你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼 第二是漲電費那"},{"start":3421.619,"end":3443.045,"text":"企業民眾的成本他都持續增加 可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥 撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候 政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮 就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子 當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個"},{"start":3444.105,"end":3467.026,"text":"成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在4月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整"},{"start":3468.066,"end":3490.276,"text":"電費的一個問題電費這邊相當所以我剛才這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整"},{"start":3492.057,"end":3510.23,"text":"簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個"},{"start":3515.874,"end":3544.113,"text":"社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解 完全理解我最後再丟一個部分我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個"},{"start":3545.814,"end":3568.725,"text":"台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好OK好"},{"start":3571.018,"end":3599.986,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員我們等一下會處理條文 事實上等一下大家還是可以充分發言好 那我們現在請邱益穎委員質詢謝謝主席我是不是請一下部長跟這個台電好 請部長還是總經理跟台電今天是總經理嗎總經理 董事長都有來"},{"start":3603.578,"end":3624.411,"text":"我先找部長我想剛剛這個本席的提案說明其實也特別點到了幾個國際的局勢那包含我們一直在談電網的韌性這件事情可是我還是想要讓經濟部再更加的這個給你一點時間"},{"start":3625.451,"end":3648.007,"text":"再去說明一下其實在2017年106年我們的修法裡頭是希望把這一些電業依照電業法讓台電去分家分成三家子公司希望能夠維持供電的穩定但是整個國際局勢的變化這幾年下來看起來分家已經不是一個好的選擇"},{"start":3649.688,"end":3661.536,"text":"但是我想在過去的這幾年當中台電應該有針對分家這件事情做了一些準備工作嘛對不對所以這個準備工作做完之後我們現在又要再回頭來修法"},{"start":3663.12,"end":3685.495,"text":"又要再回到台電只是維持一家母公司的這個狀態底下當然有會有許多的委員就會批評說那你這個是不是浪費資源如果是這樣當時為什麼要修法讓他搬家那現在又要再把它改回來又要再變成只有一家公司這個我是不是讓台電來說明一下好不好"},{"start":3687.403,"end":3708.073,"text":"那個報告委員這幾年台電當然針對電源法的相關規定做了一定程度的準備最重要的準備就是台電針對它的業務功能成立了幾個不同的系統比方說發電一個系統核能一個系統輸電配電都各自有系統而這些系統的運營的狀態財務的狀況都有辦法獨立的統計出來去評比它的經營績效"},{"start":3715.216,"end":3739.741,"text":"所以你現在是說你們已經有這幾個獨立系統的運作底下你們覺得還是在一個原來的母公司的這個整體的管理之下會是比較好運行的是的跟委員報告首先第一個事情是把一個自然壟斷的產業透過法律的規範拆開這個大家都知道英國當時保守黨的那個嘛"},{"start":3740.501,"end":3750.142,"text":"主席就是柴契爾夫人提出來的政策這個影響全世界非常久很多國家也都做到相應的政策但最近連英國自己"},{"start":3751.363,"end":3767.58,"text":"都開始反向都把過去把電業拆開要走成整合所以我覺得這個是國際的潮流看到英國的狀況看到法國的狀況也是你們現在決定還是把它合併還是把它維持一個母公司的最主要的原因嗎以台灣的狀況來講這是一個比較合適的方式"},{"start":3771.084,"end":3794.169,"text":"好來部長那您覺得就是說現在的這樣的一個修法的進度對於台灣未來的整體能源發展或者是說對於台電未來的整體的發展會不會有更大的幫助大家現在一直在講台電的虧損問題那包括我們在講到這個國際燃料大漲甚至"},{"start":3796.152,"end":3824.117,"text":"我们中油最近去跟美国LNG签了一个大单对于台美关系对于台湾的整个能源政策能源问题是否能够得到有效的缓解呢是 谢谢委员崔迅这个部分我想如果不把它拆分的话为此目前的运作方式对台电应该是最适合的因为他们习惯这样的一个运作模式而且知道在过去那段日子"},{"start":3824.878,"end":3843.38,"text":"發生過什麼樣的問題那要面對過去的這個問題他現在可以提出可以解決的方式所以我們遵從委員剛才提示的部分我們認為委員所主張的這種不拆分的方式應該是最好的方式"},{"start":3844.144,"end":3860.453,"text":"不拆分我是支持啦但是我其實想要看到更多台電在對於強化電網這一塊所做的努力啦因為我們都一直講說維持供電的穩定是一個很基本的需求嘛現在不拆分讓台電還是一家"},{"start":3861.772,"end":3877.257,"text":"完全壟斷的公司在處理這些輸配電業所以台電就必須要擔負更重的責任我們一直講要強化電網的韌性但是你們要擔負更重的責任甚至你要投入更多的投資你才有辦法在電網的韌性這一塊去把它強化起來但是現不在台電的虧損這麼多錢你們還有錢要去強化電網韌性"},{"start":3885.64,"end":3911.728,"text":"我們現在大概會導入用AI的方法然後讓他產生智慧的這個電網然後我想這個會強化他整個人性透過算力來觀察他可能未來有什麼樣的變化所以我們對這一部分因為新的科技的導入對台電的這個營運我們更具信心部長新的科技導入也要需要很多電來 董事長你好像有話要講來 給你說明一下報告部長報告委員那個"},{"start":3912.97,"end":3935.438,"text":"其實台電不分割不代表台電就是會維持既有的壟斷的狀況跟委員報告就是現在民營的發電業跟民間需要綠電的廠商他可以直接交易台電只負責做快遞就是鼎泰豐可以賣給想要吃小籠包的人台電做Foodpanda"},{"start":3936.318,"end":3957.914,"text":"我並沒有把小籠包壟斷下來我要跟委員報告現在的狀況台電只有在輸電這個輸配電這個會在自然壟斷的這一塊國家經營而它現在越來越多的發電其實包括我們的機組是在配合著產業需要綠電在做調度我要跟委員報告這一塊是"},{"start":3959.435,"end":3983.175,"text":"好 如果是你剛剛講的啦你只負責當fupenda你只負責當快遞的時候其實你的快遞業務也要增加啦沒錯你的書配店的這個工程的供給量其實也要快速增加你才能達到你剛剛所講的這一塊啦這也是任性電網的其中一環嘛 是的這些是公共投資尤其是維持任性這一件事情都是額外投資所以需要國家支持"},{"start":3985.051,"end":3996.607,"text":"即使我們現在的電源法修完之後我覺得你的公共投資的這個部分還是要持續增加是的好謝謝好謝謝邱毅寅委員那我們下一位請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":4028.516,"end":4033.699,"text":"過去三年電價已經漲了四次了 最近如果再漲就已經是第五次了"},{"start":4035.219,"end":4056.955,"text":"如果再漲電價 對民生衝擊很大小吃店啦 一些商家 甚至可能連便當都要大幅漲價了然後對工商業發展衝擊也會很大一些企業啦 對不對 你以前從企業來嘛光是電價一上來 對很多企業影響就很大 真的要再上第五次的電價嗎"},{"start":4058.8,"end":4069.462,"text":"報告委員我想如果說我們用比較這個科學理性的方法來討論的話我們必須要知道說電價對它所佔的比率有多少"},{"start":4071.075,"end":4093.003,"text":"所以影響的這個變數有多少然後影響的金額有多少我想不至於因為每一個產業不會一樣那我們當然會把這樣的狀況因為我們這一次的電價審議委員裡面也有這個工業總會的代表也有商業總會的代表我想他們會充分的"},{"start":4093.723,"end":4112.477,"text":"反映給所有的這個委員就這個委員您所關注的這個命題我想他們會去討論但是經濟部只能夠這按照他審議委員會的這樣的一個結論我們來執行部長最可憐的是人民了一般的民眾"},{"start":4114.656,"end":4133.406,"text":"以後整個物價的那個一定是推升了嘛對不對人民就等於是受到很大的一個衝擊以後去買東西就變貴了嘛等於是薪水沒有漲可是呢薪水被這個物價上漲又吃掉被電價吃掉了然後影響到我們的工商業那另外你剛剛提了一個點所以我呼籲菩薩為因啦眾生為果"},{"start":4138.603,"end":4151.802,"text":"漲電價這個惡果一直在漲已經漲了40次第五次要再漲這個惡果應該去看那個原因在什麼地方啊你剛講說那經濟部經濟部當然有責任啊電價為什麼會漲就是你的能源政策跟你的能源結構影響了電價嘛"},{"start":4154.131,"end":4178.9,"text":"電價審慮委員會在審的時候你如果你每次都是用最便宜的核電不用最貴的這個綠電拼命買又出現一些必要買太貴有這兩個原因那當然就會漲啊所以經濟部很有責任啊經濟部你要菩薩為因你要去知道那個因對不對你要回過頭去想說現在全世界人家為什麼都要重新用核電最穩定最便宜嘛那你只要做了這個事情"},{"start":4179.6,"end":4201.881,"text":"就不用漲電價啦而且全世界都在做連美國AIT的處長都跟你講我們可以幫台灣那你不做這個惡果當然人民就會覺得經濟部沒有盡到責任或者賴清德總統沒有盡到責任這是第一個嘛第二個綠電來我們看一下這個是電價審議委員會的一個成員啦也是我們商總的理事長許書柏"},{"start":4204.484,"end":4224.058,"text":"開會的時候他應該就要在場了 他說什麼就是我剛剛講 要去找那個原因出來嘛 對不對你如果原因把它處理好 就像生病一樣你如果是因為核電的問題 是因為綠電問題 你把它處理好那就不用漲電價 搞不好還可以降喔你看 時事部跟他說探究台電的這個成本結構啊 時事部說沒錢看出來台電今年大概虧損414億 主要來自於哪裡加大對綠能的採購 增加了"},{"start":4231.226,"end":4247.956,"text":"因為綠電的問題至少都增加了300億的虧損所以解決綠電的問題啊綠電我已經提了好幾次啊你買了太貴這是一個原因想辦法把價格降下來更重要你現在馬上在做你現在已經在賣RE30嘛對不對"},{"start":4249.827,"end":4255.714,"text":"30你現在綠電開始賣啊加快速度現在不是漲電價你只要加快賣綠電的這個速度你是5、6塊買的你現在都用髒電3、4塊賣出去當然虧損300億、400億就出來了你趕快把綠電如期賣出去讓我們的企業可以買到綠電"},{"start":4266.75,"end":4293.678,"text":"這個台電不要虧損就不要漲電價三年啊報告委員我想這個需求跟供應才是真相關我想價格是決定於需求跟供應之間我們當然希望供應這個R1-30但是如果需求沒有那麼大我還是沒有辦法供應給它因為這個電它有需要才會來跟我們購買今天上次不就開口說需要110度的這個地電嗎"},{"start":4294.978,"end":4314.751,"text":"那個委員那個請你找出那個100億度的客戶給我他確實需要綠電嘛他回來需要綠電嘛對不對你找他來給我啊我一定賣給他啊然後很多企業都來陳情都需要綠電嘛問題是這個100億度的這個是假的命題假命題所以我們不用討論假命題就是很多企業確實需要綠電嘛我們一定會如果今天今天有綠電的需求而買不到我的綠電"},{"start":4325.078,"end":4328.762,"text":"麻煩委員直接告訴我我一定拿去給他"},{"start":4329.794,"end":4357.244,"text":"所以你要加速嘛這也是你的責任當然當然你現在目前我統計你每年買300億度的綠電進來你只賣出去10%當然太少啊你現在要賣就要趕快我的意思就是你應該是加快賣綠電的速度這個計劃是不是讓台電董事長跟你報告一下沒有時間過了來只要收入增加當然就不要漲這個人民的電費嘛對不對這是不是很大投資台電是不是要虧另外一個洞出來了看看"},{"start":4358.39,"end":4383.446,"text":"我們最近啊 跟美國阿拉斯加天然氣開發公司簽約我看部長你也在場嘛 對不對照片上面也有你嘛是說要合作啊 不只買他們的天然氣合作要建造一條價值440億美金的出油管道476億多少錢台電要出多少錢"},{"start":4387.22,"end":4406.271,"text":"我們還沒有決定 我們是意向數 意向數如果用440億的一半 220億美金就是6600億喔台電 台當然不是我現在提醒 台電不用挖一個大黑洞 你看台電沒用 少一千億 綠電600 綠電600你這個基本假設又是不存在的"},{"start":4416.597,"end":4428.843,"text":"我們簽意向書不是只有我買他50分的不可能嘛這個是美國的東西他要賣給日本賣給台灣要賣給韓國甚至賣到菲律賓我怎麼可能占50%我現在不是說賣天然氣天然氣的那個天然氣的輸油管道"},{"start":4435.216,"end":4453.27,"text":"這一條駕駛要建造要440億美金我現在在提醒你我的訊息440億是天然氣而不是這個油管所以您的這個資訊是不是要再correct一下這是會長親你們政府的媒體自由時報下來的"},{"start":4459.215,"end":4476.393,"text":"那不管是輸油管或者你剛說的這個要去挖天然氣我們要投資4400億的多少錢我現在只是提醒啦投資當然是可以的可是金額看起來很嚇人喔如果是像這個440億裡面兩邊要合作對不對你如果要一半的話220億的美金就是六千六百億喔"},{"start":4479.301,"end":4507.379,"text":"欸我們一年的總預算才三兆欸我們台積電已經去投資了一千億美金了你那個假設是過度的啦不可能的事啦所以差不多多少不可能五十萬我們現在要我們要投資多少也是人家對方同意啊而且這裡面牽扯到其他的鄰國他們也都需要所以不是說你要五十%他就可以保住部長那你意向說跟人家簽了裡面簽了裡面你不管是你剛剛在講的挖天然氣或者是這個輸油管"},{"start":4507.859,"end":4519.592,"text":"你到底要出多少錢你都沒有沒有一個沒有一個比較細膩算過你沒有財務的算過你就簽了這個報告委員這一個案子是2031年以後才會發生的"},{"start":4520.667,"end":4540.843,"text":"你簽個意向書你都要簽之前都沒有先做才有表示我們這個是有興趣我們可以支持他這個遊警去開發這個是我們現在的意向嘛至於投資多少錢不是契約這個是意向書所以我跟委員報告就是契約跟意向書是不一樣的"},{"start":4541.363,"end":4570.581,"text":"現在意向書先簽嘛對不對可是兩邊要進一步的談然後要先做參與安顧你剛剛這個你的圖片拍得非常好啊上面寫投資意向書嘛不是寫投資契約書嘛你在上面嘛那你都已經簽了意向書上面沒有金額上面沒有金額我跟委員報告就是沒有金額美國在講說光是這個輸油管道就要440億啊那你講的又是另外的錢我現在是在提醒啦島主當然可以不過金額都很大好不好"},{"start":4571.041,"end":4581.608,"text":"不要又挖了一個大洞不要挖了一個大洞以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後"},{"start":4582.947,"end":4605.414,"text":"我們買的是大案價你現在簽了意向書裡面有牽扯到可能要投資多少錢沒有沒有沒有那沒有的話至少至少不要進一步的時候一定要做財務評估報告委員我們不方便在這裡跟你報告這些鉅細靡遺的事情啦這個很抱歉這裡面牽扯到什麼整理人道事件出去怎麼當然會你如果要知道你要知道那麼你拒絕我就跟你報告"},{"start":4606.834,"end":4632.028,"text":"來報告啦 這個應該是公開的 要讓全民知道啦好不好我們希望這個投資是賺錢的不要投資又賠錢發生以後一定會報告如果有進度隨時報告好不好不過要提醒的是不要進去又花了很多錢然後到時候要找人進去 一定要慎重好不好投資是要賺錢的 要注意好不好 好 謝謝好 來 謝謝好 謝謝張其凱委員那我們現在請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":4646.42,"end":4648.084,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是請部長好來請部長"},{"start":4653.82,"end":4683.263,"text":"但是那個主席在還沒開始之前我想確認一件事情因為我的提案也有第二條第六條十一條十五條二十四條三十五條四十七條七十四條七十五條還有七十八條之一還有八十條我本身的提案也已經進到我們委員會了只是我本身又多了一個五十二條比院版多了五十二條所以呢我是不是可以確認說我的部分"},{"start":4683.843,"end":4693.112,"text":"跟我们这一次今天所讨论的也应该要并进来否则我的提案里面也有第2条第6条11条15条24条35条47条74条75条78条之一还有80条"},{"start":4699.588,"end":4719.836,"text":"所以這個部分可以麻煩主席主席主席主席主席主席我說我的提案我自己本身電業法有提案那我的提案也有第二條第六條十一條十五條二十四條三十五條四十七條七十四條七十五條七十八條之一還有八十條"},{"start":4720.376,"end":4742.355,"text":"都有但是因為我多了一個52條那有關於這個店家可能大家比較爭議的部分所以這個不排進來我沒有意見但是呢前面這個跟院板一樣的是不是也應該併進來這個部分再麻煩主席採視一下要不然我的就在空中飛啊我怎麼在空中飛這個部分再拜託"},{"start":4746.38,"end":4769.592,"text":"這次的審查是以院版為主因為院版的比較沒爭議所以我不堅持就是說院版沒有爭議所以我的這一次沒有排進來那OK就是院版的先處理那我的部分另外就是說因為這裡面跟院版都沒有異議所以也應該要併進來謝謝"},{"start":4772.654,"end":4790.464,"text":"那我之後再看對因為我的已經都附委了已經在我們委員會了謝謝那謝謝主席我要問一下部長請教一下部長就是說我們現在媒體一直在炒說電價4月就要開始凝長6%而且這個6%是會影響到民生物價喔部長這怎麼辦而且是904萬戶喔這非常嚴重喔"},{"start":4802.581,"end":4819.906,"text":"這怎麼辦報告委員我想這個您漲6%這個訊息應該是媒體報導我們不知道他是從哪裡來的訊息如果最後也是漲6%我們在內部的討論並沒有討論到這一條沒有討論到這一條沒有討論到這一條就我在主持的會議裡面"},{"start":4830.39,"end":4847.338,"text":"沒有這個6%這樣的一個案子部長因為我們要擔心的是說我們目前本來就是去年去年我們用追加但是現在沒有過在協商當中"},{"start":4848.579,"end":4864.794,"text":"追加要做撥補 由我們政府來做撥補的動作 沒過一千億然後在這一次也一樣一千億 我們是要編列預算的是被直接刪掉這樣的一個缺口兩千億 兩千億耶"},{"start":4867.984,"end":4883.982,"text":"我覺得這個意見在當時候就大家都沒有意義就是要政府來撥補可是為什麼碰到政治議題又改變了我一直強調電價是民生經濟的議題不是政治的議題"},{"start":4885.063,"end":4898.595,"text":"所以現在面臨去年的追加1000億沒有過 還在空中飛然後在今年的1000億是直接被刪掉 這個怎麼辦然後現在媒體又傳出說 馬上4月要漲6%"},{"start":4903.615,"end":4924.178,"text":"那部長說沒有這個訊息好那最後如果真的這個缺口沒辦法電價審議委員會就給他大刀一砍那怎麼辦報告委員我想這個所謂的您剛才所指導的這個2000億的部分事實上我想政府本來就是有準備"},{"start":4925.427,"end":4947.396,"text":"那在我們這個經濟委員會各位委員也都非常的睿智只刪了我們30億但是送到大園區以後才被刪掉的所以我們當然是非常的難過啦因為這個事情基本上這個補助2000億的目的是在"},{"start":4948.856,"end":4964.631,"text":"讓我們台電的舉債的這個金額能夠下降我們現在是負債4000多億嘛那下降2000億我們大概利息就會差了差不多50億這個部分是對我們來講在財務上面有很大的這個"},{"start":4967.262,"end":4985.4,"text":"補助讓我們台電的同仁也比較有信心說政府有在照顧他們不然的話他們你看看颱風來他們半夜都要去這個救災做了半死結果呢這個政府的好意要到這個要來補助我們台電的財務經理"},{"start":4987.623,"end":5005.03,"text":"這怎麼辦啦如果這樣的話大家擔心的是這後續如果真的漲了電價所影響的是物價而且現在大家越講是越明喔連%都出來了好這怎麼辦所影響的部分這可能更多喔"},{"start":5005.55,"end":5032.151,"text":"我個人是沒有收到這樣的一個方向的資訊那麼這個坊間大家在推論的部分我也不知道是從哪裡來的部長我真的要拜託因為我們今天為了要省電源法時間有限我要拜託這個電價民生的電價真的不能動一動下去連我們說的物價非漲上去我告訴你漲上去之後就回不來了"},{"start":5033.112,"end":5051.664,"text":"民生物價真的民生物價關鍵在這個店的問題所以真的我們民生的店價不能漲是這個部分部長我要拜託我們會充分的這個考慮這個真的要拜託還有你剛剛有講到一點就是說台電員工的福利"},{"start":5052.864,"end":5057.146,"text":"就像你說的 套房落戶 風台廳 人在休息他們在第一算 要去清修 要去做回鄉的工作但是他們的福利其實一直都沒有很大的增加"},{"start":5068.072,"end":5084.417,"text":"所以雖然我們部長有說我們國營事業明年也會隨著軍公教條件3%但是目前其實我們很久沒動了所以國營事業起薪都3萬出頭啊所以這個部分其實已經有很大的gap"},{"start":5085.599,"end":5104.071,"text":"這部分要怎麼去把它做一個調整還有就是技術有一些我們看到的有證照的這些技術工我們要怎麼增加他的福利要不然技術工都是第一時間套房就好 一定都要出去因為都要技術工因為如果當電的時候沒電的時候燒下來 電線燒下來這部技術工是沒辦法的"},{"start":5112.987,"end":5126.225,"text":"被管被給這個部分也應該給他們有一個好的保障所以包括他們的意外險等等我覺得這都是我們應該來協助的所以部長這個部分"},{"start":5128.147,"end":5156.282,"text":"我是覺得我們通常看到他們這麼辛苦我們都希望用很多撥補的動作來協助把這個gap這個缺口把它彌平下來可是我覺得我們這兩千億我們不要管這兩千億了第一點我們的店價民生店價不能漲第二我們台電的員工他的薪水福利一定要兼顧要照顧要做好謝謝我們會來努力好謝謝"},{"start":5157.262,"end":5169.326,"text":"好 謝謝廷輝委員我們等一下再來 我再跟委員討論那個法案怎麼處理我們下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英主席邀請部長好 請部長"},{"start":5188.601,"end":5200.489,"text":"部長好 早上本席在法案題討論的時候我特別提出電源法第六條的規定那麼台電也必須在2026年1月1日前就完成長網的分離轉型為控股母公司 拆成發電輸配電"},{"start":5209.335,"end":5235.433,"text":"以及售电三家公司但是本席也说了因为时事环境社会的一个现象产生俄乌战争之后呢全球整个能源市场剧烈的一个变动许多的国家选择重新调整他电业的结构而我国也要达成2050年净零碳排的政策目标就需要大型的综合电业来执行绿电"},{"start":5235.953,"end":5263.55,"text":"的一个囤购那么以及新能源如地乐的开发跟投资那么如果把台电这个拆分那恐导致我们整个供电稳定性的一个下降甚至影响国家能源的安全所以在这样的一个条件之下本校请教部长本席的提案电液法第六条的修正案我也希望台电能够维持整个这个综合电"},{"start":5265.112,"end":5290.371,"text":"這個綜合電業型態喔那麼請教部長你的看法這個委員的您這個支持綜合電業繼續走這個跟我們院內的版本完全是一樣所以你是支持本席的提案我們支持這個委員的提案好好的讓這個供電能夠穩定那麼同時也能夠跟世界來接軌這是非常重要這也就是我們大家一定"},{"start":5290.931,"end":5303.883,"text":"要怎麼樣好好的來討論我們整個能源政策以及經營的方式那接下來本席要跟你討論的是在中研院的永續中心它的一個評估說我國每一年大概要2800億度的用電"},{"start":5306.585,"end":5328.453,"text":"那到了2050年我們可能要5000億度那即便我們的再生能源每一年我本期的統計可以提供大概271度那預估在2050年的時候可以上升到1000億度但是如果照這樣的一個數字我們還上缺再生能源的部分是4000億度那可是我們馬上可用的"},{"start":5332.034,"end":5337.917,"text":"無碳電力恐怕就是合二跟合三了那至於我們現在所推動的天然氣去碳海洋能 生殖能 地熱能等需要努力的找很多的方法來去產生"},{"start":5348.323,"end":5370.248,"text":"那逐漸攀升的這個用電已經刻不容緩我相信這也是部長你必須也是政府必須要嚴肅的去應對跟重視所以在去年的時候給一個這個面向唯獨率先來擁抱核能與美國能源公司簽署了為期20年的核電採購協議那亞馬遜Google也都陸續的拍板做"},{"start":5376.449,"end":5400.409,"text":"核電的採購來確保整個電力的穩定供給他們自家的AI資料中心可以使用Google早已經在我們台灣2013年開始他就在我們台灣設立資料中心目前他們也正在佈局第三座的資料中心微軟在我們我國的資料中心是在2020年開始使用"},{"start":5402.89,"end":5413.337,"text":"亞馬遜在去年也宣布在台灣要建構第三部第三座的這個資料中心喔那麼我們的能源政策就目前為止是在非核家園嗎是嗎"},{"start":5415.267,"end":5434.476,"text":"非核家園是我們在目前為止目前我們的核管法上面有規定是非核家園那如果說我們目前一樣我們對核電的這個觀點是這樣就三個基本原則第一個安全無虞第二個全民有共識第三個核廢料"},{"start":5435.276,"end":5463.092,"text":"必須要能夠處理目前最大的問題是在核廢料可不可以處理現在到目前為止大家都口頭說可以處理願意來協助處理但是要在哪裡處理這個是一個非常大的問題大家都不願意所以部長你現在的回答你的三大原則那結果還是目前我們的面向就是在非核家園所以本席要請教在非核家園的政策下"},{"start":5463.692,"end":5490.66,"text":"能夠填補這個龐大的供電缺口嗎我們正在努力的努力的往這個目標在前進所以你現在是核的部分是開放所以我之前有回答委員講說我有可能透過買電的方式來讓我們的備份可以買來做買電的方式就是包括核電備電還是包括核電是嗎"},{"start":5491.76,"end":5507.532,"text":"買來的電力裡面就是包括核電市場上面需求什麼電我們哪個地方比較不足我們會買所以是包括你買的核電成本的問題嘛是成本是最便宜啊現在1.12元啊我如果要更貴的電大家就說你這是圖利嘛本席可以解讀部長您剛才所說的回答也就是你預估要備電的部分也包括購買核電"},{"start":5522.398,"end":5548.644,"text":"這個購買核電應該是就是說剛才那個三個條件不存在的情況之下我們也可以買購買核電不存在剛剛你講的三大原則核電的三個原則核廢料可以處理全民有共識所以本席要請教那麼核電研議討論核電的占比是不是就誠如童子賢董事長所說的"},{"start":5549.861,"end":5559.481,"text":"也是你們的副召集人所說的我們可以賺很多N個千億所以就不用來漲我們的電價"},{"start":5561.6,"end":5568.263,"text":"從你們整個的能源政策配比去做一個整體性的研討釜底抽薪因為如果沒有去討論我們的能源配比的部件我也歡喜聽到剛剛部長你所說的你買的電包瓜是核電的備用這個項目你點頭了所以本期希望你們要好好的去討論因為在整個科技巨頭真相來台灣投資的時候你政府"},{"start":5591.312,"end":5597.195,"text":"要切記不要耽誤了我們產業的一個發展我們都歡迎討論啦都在可以討論啦只要把那個法修過我們當然就是可以來好我們也請大家朝野的委員聽到部長所說的法通過之後他會循著這個方向去做我們一定尊重大院的這個決定最後一個功課我給你好一分鐘就好"},{"start":5615.643,"end":5641.478,"text":"美國計畫在4月2號提出了對等關稅的政策那麼針對美國徵收的高關稅且貿易最大的國家將這些國家稱為骯髒15國那據報導路透社的報導包括美國前15大貿易夥伴如墨西哥、加拿大、中國、德國、日本包括我台灣因為台灣對美的貿易量呢關稅也較高所以被列入在15國之內那請教部長"},{"start":5644.019,"end":5665.045,"text":"我們如果真的是被列入在這個骯髒15國之中會對哪些的產業造成最大的影響那你的因應方案是怎麼樣報告委員我簡單的跟你報告就是說我們所有的情境分析都有所以根據這些情境我們都有對策都有對策所以也確定我們是列在15國的骯髒15國之內不管有沒有列在骯髒15國之內"},{"start":5673.087,"end":5701.923,"text":"我們都有做狀況分析 情況分析我們也都有對策你有對策 所以我也要敬請敬請我們部長一定要嚴正以待因為我們產業都蠻緊張的當然針對關稅以及上次所提的匯率的問題是務必請你一定要隨時了解最新的進度協助我們的產業是謝謝好 謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員那下一位請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":5708.795,"end":5727.174,"text":"主席我們雖然是4分鐘4加1但每個人都講10分鐘欸下次就乾脆就8分鐘好了好謝謝主席我想請部長好請部長"},{"start":5735.285,"end":5750.932,"text":"部長今天雖然是省電業法但是我想所有不分朝野的委員大家最關心的就是要不要漲電價這件事情本席相信請問部長如果加上這一次這三年來是第幾次漲電價了您知道嗎您記得嗎從2022年到現在這一次會漲電價嗎"},{"start":5759.187,"end":5766.191,"text":"報紙大家都在寫所以你覺得你支持動長嗎我先問一下部長 部長你是支持動長嗎我們不是因為報紙在做行政的是 電價審議委員會28號即將會舉行那是不是部長的態度呢部長態度今天是告訴我們說你支持動長嗎"},{"start":5783.34,"end":5788.989,"text":"那我先問你2022到現在已經漲了幾次了過去到現在我的任內是兩次了"},{"start":5798.039,"end":5811.474,"text":"反正總共是四次了啦四次是他的任內你問我幾次我的任內我印象只有兩次啊那本席再問你一個問題假設假設喔假設28號真的漲了"},{"start":5815.558,"end":5817.8,"text":"真的漲了就像現在報章媒體而且是各大報都說了民生11%總體6%這5次加起來你知道要漲多少%嗎漲多少我算給你聽別人漲80%啦我們到目前才漲40%啦"},{"start":5833.733,"end":5841.795,"text":"你先看一下 漲了48.9%本來假設他的電費是1000塊一個月他就要改繳1500塊一個月所以呢 現在本席希望能夠提醒部長的是現在收到的消息是連最基本的120度以下的住宅用電都不放過 是不是"},{"start":5862.991,"end":5868.612,"text":"您支持您的態度我就問您的態度120度以下的住宅用電要不要放過有誰他們家用電可以用20度以下120度120度不是20度所以我想要請問一下部長你知道48.9%是將近一半這是一個鋪天蓋地的大幅度120度它的電費只有1.68元一度喔"},{"start":5891.438,"end":5910.556,"text":"錢啊錢都是錢啊那你的成本你要講你又不用核電對不對你現在五月全部都沒有了你本來最便宜的1.41元的核電都沒有了再講到今天核電只占我所有的發電裡面的"},{"start":5911.356,"end":5918.684,"text":"現在本席希望做一個建議啦 是不是331度以下的民生用電不要漲啦這是不是補兌 可以裁釋一下啦發電是其中的一部分喔我的輸配電的成本是很怕人的喔你相信啦 部長 部長"},{"start":5929.264,"end":5942.602,"text":"你要想 你一直在比照說韓國 我們如果跟韓國的店價一樣我們台店就不會賠錢啦但你要知道韓國的基本薪資是多我們1.46倍假設按照他的這個"},{"start":5944.304,"end":5955.29,"text":"平均的物價指數來講的話你這樣講是不合理的你不能夠只用韓國來比你知道韓國現在還有20幾%的核電20幾%的核電你怎麼不學他呢我們來討論經濟的問題這個是我非常高興好 然後我再問你電業法好 來 電業法"},{"start":5969.543,"end":5996.538,"text":"2017年民進黨修法說要求台電在2025年前完成發電出配電售電分離然後促進這個市場競爭那這一次呢要再修回來我也支持說維持他的整體性可是呢我就不能理解說為什麼當初要猜說的這麼冠冕堂皇今天又不要猜那既然是這樣子的話當初的決定是不是不專業"},{"start":5998.851,"end":6018.143,"text":"報告委員 我二十年前是拿Nokia的手機啦剛出點了新要把它拆掉好 你這句話 我就想要等你這句話就是時空背景不一樣我們現在台灣面臨的要漲電價然後要等於是所有的民生物價都要漲"},{"start":6020.044,"end":6030.172,"text":"這是小老百姓的痛苦耶現在的時空背景是不是也跟以前不一樣呢以前電價便宜啊現在電價貴啊所以既然電業法當初說要拆分現在決定不拆分那是不是你們過去說要不要核能現在為了我們民生電價要穩定也可以改用核能啦對不對報告委員20年前民生的電價比現在還便宜"},{"start":6049.739,"end":6050.38,"text":"現在的電價比20年前的電價要便宜"},{"start":6061.516,"end":6087.096,"text":"330度以下但是你現在還是要漲它呀你現在還是要漲它不是嗎所以成本已經變那麼多啦所以你要降成本嗎你核能最便宜你不用到底是什麼原因嘛法令 法令規定嘛所以我問你一個問題剛才很多委員問你問你說假設修法你支持本席就問你一句嘛假設修法你支持嘛"},{"start":6088.633,"end":6089.814,"text":"報告委員我們尊重立法院 我們尊重大院的決定報告委員您剛剛所說的與時俱進嘛"},{"start":6111.367,"end":6136.644,"text":"法令也應該是與時拘禁我們會與時拘禁那你這邊也要提出你的版本啊你的態度我們都希望支持就是你如果是支持說核能可以重啟的話那大家一起來嘛草野大家一起來讓我們全台灣用便宜的電啊好嗎謝謝謝謝委員指導好我們張委員也是說到欲罷不能待會都有審議的時候可以再講來我也要繼續說"},{"start":6140.953,"end":6158.942,"text":"等一下可以再講我們等一下處理條文可以再講來下一位請李玉琳委員質詢謝謝主席請郭部長好請郭部長"},{"start":6168.14,"end":6185.168,"text":"委員好 部長今天我們主席特別排了這個電液法的修法就是要讓我們台電能夠在穩定的營運之下穩定供電尤其是我們民生跟產業尤其是今天會來對於這個電液法的修法是2017年"},{"start":6186.368,"end":6214.727,"text":"那時候就有要求台電在2025年要拆分為發電跟輸配電跟售電就是長網分離啦那這長網分離的情況下最主要就是讓我們整個這個電業都能夠在自由的市場自由化要讓他們自由化那在自由化的情況之下才能夠讓整個像現在已經在做的就是再生能源他們整個售電業者他們之間都已經互相在做一個交易了所以本心想請問一下"},{"start":6216.548,"end":6230.094,"text":"因為學者都在講說你們不做就是不要讓整個電業市場自由化那現在部長你要怎麼樣來讓台電在穩定的營運之下又可以做到電業市場能夠自由化來減少台電整個對於產業的市場的衝擊"},{"start":6235.976,"end":6249.526,"text":"是 報告委員我們大概因為看到這個整個國際的趨勢都已經開始這個自由競爭那轉為這個強化管制跟整合因為畢竟我們的這個在台灣這麼小"},{"start":6251.067,"end":6279.268,"text":"那这个资源是有限的你再把它拆开我想这整个不管在营运上面或者管理上面都会有问题不拆开怎么样让这个产业自营那我们我们这个过去各国都是采用补贴啦或者设定价格上限啦那么开征报税报利税或者这个来确保这个电价的平稳但是我们要怎么做我们当然是这个这个参考其他的这个这个国家先进国家他们的做法"},{"start":6279.748,"end":6288.079,"text":"或者來比對我們台灣自己本身的資源有多少那我想這個是比較快速的方法但我們自己內部也討論我們自己內部也討論認為"},{"start":6291.57,"end":6313.749,"text":"拆開可能那個時候的情境是適合拆開的但是現在來講以現在來講我面臨的是我現在必須要快速的讓我台電更具有競爭力所以我要用各種的方法把過去我在這個疫情期間在各種方法之下拿到的這個補助"},{"start":6314.87,"end":6339.484,"text":"是不是可以請大院能夠幫我們再爭取給我們這些你不能一直靠補助啦能源配比我們的能源才是最重要的我們那個是用共產來補助我們的國人所以那個部分不是台電的責任台電要變成一個好的公司除了這個不拆開以外它必須要有穩定的財政那最重要的我們要讓整個電業市場穩定的話就是要有管理機制對不對"},{"start":6340.868,"end":6368.122,"text":"要有好的管理在106年的時候我們通過修正之後的話希望這個電源法在一年後能夠開公聽會來成立一個管理的機關那現在的管理機關的話我們本身我們的電力辦公室裡面就有叫請能源署來作為這個管理機關那能源署的話上下就是你們的所屬嘛那這樣子的話有沒有求嚴兼裁判沒有辦法讓我們整個獨立出來"},{"start":6372.213,"end":6382.826,"text":"報告委員我們在這一方面管理的方面我們是採取開放的態度開放可是能源署的話你未來是不是要請這個管理機關就是能源署"},{"start":6384.195,"end":6401.146,"text":"我們當然是要先這個社會整個都在監管整個監管沒有錯我們在希望說你獨立在政府以外的機關來管理的話才有公平性跟透明才能夠適時的作為監督跟接避的方式謝謝委員這個方面我們會來進行"},{"start":6405.796,"end":6414.26,"text":"可是我們現在看到的是整個電業市場沒有辦法分離的話你們就要把管理機制一套做出來才能夠讓整個電業市場能夠穩定自由化會的你們會做到嗎會"},{"start":6419.059,"end":6439.135,"text":"那部長那尤其是說我們現在看到整個電價審議你剛剛特別講到如果漲電價這個是電價審議小組的事情可是你要看到我們剛剛幾個委員都提到了我們不能每次都拿跟韓國比韓國現在他們的平均他的電價大概都比我們多了"},{"start":6439.795,"end":6452.183,"text":"一塊錢相差一塊錢可是我們的薪資所得我們台灣大概在37K 韓國在60K也比我們比較高在不一樣的水平之下這樣子比較是不對的所以其實整個電價審議委員會會不會漲電價完全是還是有看上級長官也是部長你們這邊可以有"},{"start":6461.088,"end":6489.206,"text":"妥占性的這個給他們建議最重要還是要回歸一句話不要漲民生電價因為已經漲了這麼多了我們也給你補助了 補助了500億還有給你們增資了2500億就3000億了所以歸本要處理要解決的問題還是屬於能源政策整個配比才能夠來幫助我們整個電能夠穩定的供應才是最重要的好不好謝謝委員的協助但是我們在COVID-19那段期間一共花了6000億"},{"start":6490.874,"end":6510.445,"text":"所以我們也補了三千億給你所以我們還不足三千億不足的話我們要想辦法解決這個問題不是一直靠撥補啦我們都努力在想辦法解決這些問題對 能源政策也是很重要的一個方式你要解決這個配比的問題好不好好 謝謝李玉玲委員那下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢好 謝謝主席 請郭部長請部長"},{"start":6527.363,"end":6551.651,"text":"國務長辛苦了聽前面質詢的這段時間啊其實感覺到就是台電又要馬而好又要馬而不吃草不喝水就是說整個條件上面其實大家過往大概採用的最多都是用國家撥補的方式來支持台電然後能夠穩住這個民生的電價穩住整個物價結果現在明明就很清楚這個因為"},{"start":6552.991,"end":6577.372,"text":"二五戰爭的關係油料漲了增加了6000億的一個虧損那這個部分你若不做處理的話那當然國家撥補嘛那你若都不撥補的話那當然就有漲電價的壓力那你又不准它漲又不給它撥補那又要它台電能夠存活下去這不是矛盾嗎部長同意這樣的看法嗎謝謝委員的這個指教我們非常同意您的看法所以我認為"},{"start":6577.972,"end":6601.625,"text":"那如果老師要講到什麼核能的部分那環境基本法第二三條講得非常清楚非核家園嘛如果政府當然就依法行政嘛台電一定依法行政環境部也依法行政嘛那如果朝野能夠達成共識對於核能安全對核廢料的處理對於整個國家對於核能有共識的話那當然也可以來面對嘛但是沒有人要啟動這樣的一個討論跟處理你要台電怎麼去做這件事情"},{"start":6602.54,"end":6615.665,"text":"我想這就是大院所有的委員只要有一份心考慮到我們的國人應該都會來啟動這樣的一個討論那我認為是誰來發動這樣的一個修法我想都"},{"start":6623.308,"end":6641.654,"text":"看他對國人的這個照顧有多少我想這一點大概是我們的一個想法我想我們還是全力的支持台電因為台電就像現在這個修法方向我們國際局勢轉變了其實慢慢的特別是透過這個俄烏戰爭之後發現很多民營公司倒閉了所以"},{"start":6642.274,"end":6662.888,"text":"國家最後還是國家要買回因為電力一定是國家最終的責任所以最後的部分這個結構的改變過去的局勢大家希望分散看看能不能市場自由化能夠結果發現這一套的模式其實恐怕是不可行最後還是要國家承擔人民也沒辦法接受電力出問題啦所以最後這件事情還是要回到國家負起總責任所以是修法的主要原因嘛"},{"start":6663.488,"end":6689.903,"text":"當然我想因為這樣子因為台灣這個地緣政治我想極端氣候造成這個地緣政治的改變過去的全球化已經結束了現在來講我們必須要靠自己在這個區域上面去努力那麼電業對我們來講我們台灣這麼小但是我們的這個受眾這麼多我們當然一定只能有一家公司不可能彼此再去競爭因為我們要考慮到"},{"start":6691.244,"end":6718.627,"text":"電跟我們的生命有正相關所以安全生命這個是台電服務國人這個不可或缺的一個它涉及到很多人身的基本的需求甚至於國家安全甚至於淨零碳排的目標甚至於整個國家上的需要那甚至有很多肩負著國家的任務國家要你做你就是必須做嘛所以說這個有時候是為什麼台電必須要由國家來更那個所以我想這個修法像"},{"start":6719.724,"end":6734.73,"text":"我們全力支持謝謝委員再看一下其實各國在面對這些也都是用普通電力來做抗通膨的部分唯獨台灣唯獨台灣最辛苦其他的從五千多億七千多億五千多億只有台灣"},{"start":6735.87,"end":6751.702,"text":"給了你這個500之後 然後甚至讓你增資之後然後剩下的就不給你了 剩下3000億要你想辦法 又不准你擋建價這實在是 我認為是個矛盾啦就是說 你要馬兒好 又要馬兒不吃草不喝水 你要馬兒怎麼活下去這完全是不合理的 那"},{"start":6752.362,"end":6771.835,"text":"整個電價跟物價其實跟自由化也會相互連動啦如果你要走向自由化的話那就好 心理準備可能就會產生相關的電價不佳那我們又希望穩定住物價 又希望穩定住電價所以當然就要朝這個方向來走所以我再回到啦 當然剛剛部長稍微否認掉了啦沒有所謂那個6%漲電價這事情 沒有這事吧"},{"start":6774.957,"end":6792.975,"text":"報告委員我想6%或者8%或者12%我確實沒有在我主持的會議裡面有這種討論那第二個呢這個6%是怎麼計算來的我也不清楚不過因為電價不是經濟部或者經濟部長可以決定的事情這個是由電價審議委員他們根據當時那個時候的狀況"},{"start":6798.641,"end":6822.847,"text":"那麼確定以後才能夠決定這個電價這個電價審議委員裡面也有工業總會的代表也有商業總會的代表有各個民間企業的代表所以基本上經濟部我們只能提供我希望經濟部表達出你們的態度像昨天我看總統到台東去也講了嘛你與其發一萬元出去在野黨的訴求發一萬跟支持來這些錢來支持台電"},{"start":6823.667,"end":6842.915,"text":"就給台電效益來得更大對國家更有幫助因為它能夠穩定住電價同時也能夠讓台電永續經營我們認為這個是一個比較正確的方向謝謝委員這個我們也很感謝總統能夠提示如果這個大院你們願意給我們這個一千億的話"},{"start":6843.815,"end":6859.632,"text":"我相信這個對這家電價審議委員會有非常明確的提示所以我希望的是應該朝這個方向除了既有的兩條路以外第三條路其實是支持就是增加那因為現在我上次也提過啦"},{"start":6859.892,"end":6885.38,"text":"新的民意有可能七八月再出現那因為你一旦調漲了以後就回不來了有些東西起來回不來現在蠢蠢欲動啦很多蠢蠢欲動 電價幾乎是基本的我還希望這件事情在審議委員會裡面呢 審慎的思考啦就在這一段時間當然也許有些方案算出來 但先不要動等到了新民意出來不然萬一新民意出來的時候其實新民意是反對漲電價支持用補貼的方式的結果你民意漲上去了"},{"start":6885.76,"end":6907.035,"text":"物價波動的造成影響的已經來不及走回頭路了是不是能夠這個一列入其中一個選項好嗎我們提供給這個審議委員他們參考好那最後因為時間到了我再問一下骯髒十五國的部分當然有講到其實因為台灣這幾年的整個貿易順差增加相當快現在成為幾乎第六大"},{"start":6907.495,"end":6929.258,"text":"那台灣也有相當大的一個壓力啦 要成為去處理的那我們採購天然氣跟未來採購石油等等 這會是未來的方向嗎除了軍購以外 採購這些的 這些石油天然氣等等會是我們的減少這個順差的一個方向嗎報告委員 我們都有針對這一些情境去做一些分析 然後研擬出對策"},{"start":6930.715,"end":6953.616,"text":"所以這有可能是未來的方向嘛今天還是要減少順差啦這麼高的順差當然川普現在的策略上面我們有各種這個嚴厲的情境啦我想這是動態好請部長就持續做一個我上次有一種是有提到大臨普遷村的部分我希望部長是不是能夠在年底啟動這個登記的程序應該是可以好朝這個方向可以啦好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":6957.881,"end":6981.148,"text":"那下一位請邱志偉委員質詢謝主席是不是請經濟部郭部長請郭部長能源署李軍理代理署長好那請代理署長部長"},{"start":6981.912,"end":7005.507,"text":"今天排定審查定義法相關修正條文我想我上回期我就提出這版本版本大概跟你運版是差不多大概有11個條文裡面大概內容大致相同那我們覺得這個幾個重點都很重要我都全力支持我們希望說今天看看今天的委員會能不能就"},{"start":7006.507,"end":7027.096,"text":"做成決議來送出委員會 我想大概跨黨派都可以支持第一個問題請教一下部長 如果台電的撥補如果能夠順利完成 如果在野黨沒有阻擋台電的撥補一千億的部分那是不是就不會有電價調漲"},{"start":7029.486,"end":7050.261,"text":"報告委員如果依照您剛才所說明的這個部分我們將會把具體的這個內容交給這個電價審議委員會有因就有果嘛不是有因就有果嘛如果這個果是因為這個一千億撥補沒有到位產生必須要調漲電價這個為什麼不能說呢這個邏輯這一半都可以連結啊是"},{"start":7055.287,"end":7064.061,"text":"因為我們這個撥補是來改善我們的這個財務的情況財務結構一改善它就沒有急迫性跟必要性馬上要調整電價嘛 對不對"},{"start":7066.303,"end":7085.697,"text":"所以這部分是邏輯很清楚我這個調整電價的部分完全由這個電價審議委員會他們來做判斷不能推給電價審議委員會您是決策者那決策當然會影響到整個委員會的這個相關的判斷當然我設這1000億能夠到位對那我想我認為啦就不會有今天調長的倡議或者是討論了因為財務結構"},{"start":7090.342,"end":7111.873,"text":"已經基本上改善了所以這個是一個非常重要的變數你又不讓他撥補然後又反對這個電價調漲然後又覺得這個是你的核能政策是你的能源政策這個錯誤造成的你能源政策說你再生能源這個還沒有到位然後又提到這個廢核"},{"start":7115.391,"end":7140.777,"text":"這個核能啊 我們有幾個原則 核安 核廢處理 社會共識 對不對 是我們有國民黨那麼多的執政縣市的首長 那麼多的這個立法委員還有原民的立委 他們說要請核 說你這個因為你廢核所以才會造成這個電力失衡 電力供應不足目前為止 有沒有哪個縣市首長 或者哪一個立委 區域立委"},{"start":7141.755,"end":7153.053,"text":"跟您提出他希望把這個核電廠核電設置設在他的選區核廢料處理廠這個報告委員這個就像人都一樣大家都想上天堂但是沒有人想死沒有"},{"start":7155.885,"end":7176.146,"text":"不見得要上天堂啦 活得心安理得就好啦大家都想用電 但是都不想核廢料在你家附近因為要講道理嘛我們變成一個這個穩定國家的力量應該是在立法院才對因為要做服國立民的事情然後結果服國立民沒有做好如果你錯過政策 你錯過的決策"},{"start":7177.873,"end":7194.585,"text":"會變成禍國殃民對 報告委員您講得非常正確我們一定要解決核廢料可以處理我想我們不排除用各種的發電的方式但是核廢料沒有辦法處理活著不是要去上天堂"},{"start":7195.425,"end":7221.451,"text":"但你不要做到你要下地獄不是我的意思是說大家都想要上天堂但是沒有人想死啦你要做到心安理得你要讓人覺得所有的事情都擺出來讓他去做判斷所以你要不能漲然後又說你核能政策的問題沒有所有的核一核二核三這相關的廚藝都按照法律相關的規定嘛對不對是我們一定依法行事的"},{"start":7222.506,"end":7250.208,"text":"所以謝謝委員所以他說台電的虧損是因為核能然後因為再生能源發電的成本太高然後核能處理提早我當然知道不是嘛原料漲價的問題你要講清楚你要去說明白要爭取大家的理解所以我覺得大家沒有深度去思考能源政策的嚴肅性是的"},{"start":7252.284,"end":7276.253,"text":"然後一些媒體斷章取義把所有的能源政策說是核能的問題我深深不以為然所以到底在野黨是真的挺核還是假挺核在野黨真的挺核還是假挺核我沒有辦法判斷我覺得是假挺核所以就是一個政治操作的議題"},{"start":7282.641,"end":7305.174,"text":"非核交易不是任何一個政黨的目標非核交易是法律規定的是法律規定對不對是再一個小問題也不是小問題啦簡單的問題也不是簡單的問題啦重要的問題封測白名單的效應是長這個是您怎麼判斷封測白名單封測"},{"start":7307.294,"end":7331.973,"text":"美國對這個有封測白名單我們有幾個廠商在白名單裡面我想我們第一個會先了解這個部分到底美國他們在指的是哪一些範圍管制範圍對這個安全的部分我們一定會全力去防止但會轉單效應然後如果這樣子激起中國加速對封測技術的發展"},{"start":7335.68,"end":7339.435,"text":"不見得對我們 他沒有能力是不是他們沒有能力啊"},{"start":7341.025,"end":7368.834,"text":"報告員這個部分我是專業的我非常的專業所以才問您因為你專業所以美國封測白名單的效應對我們是短多也是長多對不對是的當然這樣很好啦我相關的機會也扮演有風險把風險降到最低把機會升到最高這是我們政府該做的事是謝謝委員所以封測這個白名單最重要的是短多也是長多是最後30秒鐘"},{"start":7372.606,"end":7400.319,"text":"這個新達這個你知道新達海基啊新達海基那他目前要轉型轉型他不是要做製造他是要做這個相關的顧問您知道新達轉型的目前草案跟計畫要經過董事會的同意經過中綱嘛新達海基就在那邊我從他這個高樓起然後從他這個訂單沒有從他變成目前沒有人在那邊這個我每天都在看"},{"start":7401.778,"end":7410.208,"text":"我覺得有點可惜當然當初要實行國產化你現在虧損了這個六七十億你走不下去要轉型"},{"start":7411.631,"end":7436.488,"text":"轉型如果也要轉型變成說對未來的雲有幫助我贊成但你如果成就一個變成一個顧問公司一個諮詢的功能那我就大可不必你可以把興達海基這個基地連加起來大概四五十公頃你可以變成產業園區產業園區呢就像我爭取的北高雄產業園區包括我爭取的陸竹產業園區也已經開始在建廠已經在規劃"},{"start":7437.569,"end":7457.708,"text":"那最北邊的茄澱我們不能不照顧這個茄澱產業所以茄澱產業把它闢建成經濟部主管的產業園區啟動這個計畫之後我們把一些海洋產業把它納進來部長你同意嗎好的我們來傳負力購可能要經過跟中鋼講一下是請中鋼一個支持"},{"start":7458.889,"end":7474.064,"text":"把這個它可以開發整個這個工業區 產業園區然後也可以招商進來變成一個生產基地我們來評估那評估是不是一個月之內把這個可行性把它評估出來撒各位啦撒各位好不好"},{"start":7476.043,"end":7490.842,"text":"沒有問題喔 三個月之內針對新達海經目前的基地啊拔劈建成進步主管的產業園區 三個月提出歸號報告好 好 謝謝謝謝 好 謝謝邱志偉委員那下一位請陳超明委員質詢"},{"start":7501.666,"end":7521.121,"text":"主席好 首先有請我們的部長委員好 部長好剛剛接到一個消息 說媒體在報導"},{"start":7522.714,"end":7525.617,"text":"經濟部有開會討論電價將要漲6%那部長說沒有但是我們的紙巾總長剛剛在我們財委會裡面回答說"},{"start":7537.999,"end":7555.1,"text":"他們財政部有派人出席但是這個會議並不是部長主持會中說提到平均調漲8%有沒有這樣的事情報告委員我剛才也有在這裡跟大家報告我沒有主持過這樣的會議"},{"start":7557.603,"end":7572.39,"text":"所以大家所談的...我現在是漲了多少?我曉得你沒有去指示,這個我們大概多少?所以梁慶民說我...我現在是要問你重點,你不要規章引東引西的,把金錢到底漲價多少?馬上要決定了嘛!我不知道!你不曉得?這個我沒有辦法,這審議委員要不會開會啊?"},{"start":7580.406,"end":7601.895,"text":"你現在越來越搞錯話我看報紙在寫說民生用電要漲11%企業用電要漲5%現在又有6%又有8%要漲這裡面也要早有階段嘛你搞得人心惶惶啊你這個部長要小心啦我跟你講報告委員"},{"start":7603.135,"end":7605.017,"text":"因為以前小小公司現在變成一個大公司"},{"start":7625.035,"end":7648.499,"text":"但是你在柏中你手下四家國營企業第一個台電現在虧損累累讓你白頭化增加了很多中油也是虧損累累你又不敢講中油被你們壓的聲音都發不出來只有默默吃這個苦頭自來水公司的時候窮窮強強勉勉強強還是在虧損之中郵件基金給撥走"},{"start":7654.76,"end":7667.152,"text":"你的台湯是來賣土地、租土地、勉強維生你提出你企業和中心這樣去做啊這個國家在你做財政經濟部長裡面有沒有改修規則呢?你有沒有什麼解決之道?簡單講一下"},{"start":7675.068,"end":7697.202,"text":"調整電價 調整我們瓦斯價 調整我們水位 你的辦法我看只有這樣而已啦不一定啦 不一定齁 我有七個垢面啦 可以來協助他們那你趕快提一個報告 不然我現在每天都心不安慰 就要整天說 哎喲 水電要去啦 我要安裝什麼"},{"start":7699.284,"end":7711.955,"text":"這齁,這我很怕是這樣啦我也很怕三人成虎,不一樣的事情說到變成這樣你常常不一樣的事情說到不一樣,害我們有時候要替你辯護都很困難是,謝謝委員,一定要替我辯護啦你剛剛說補錢兩千億,你們的執政黨的立委在回答問題你都微笑"},{"start":7719.602,"end":7739.339,"text":"在結黨回答問題裡面的第一件事你說兩千億為什麼要補貼兩千億你說要五十億歷史我教你 我不理你轉角你就五十億歷史來 國庫來補貼不要搞到兩千億啊稍省一點頭腦 稍賺一點就行了這樣事情就改變了是 謝謝委員"},{"start":7743.542,"end":7749.674,"text":"好不好 你用這個思維你跟我講嘛為了五十億的歷史 國庫保護才有 大家不會說話啦你拿兩千要出來 你知道嗎"},{"start":7753.021,"end":7773.122,"text":"你們現在已經國庫補貼三千億 你的電費漲價大概一千億 四千億還在拿呢啊你現在還要貼兩千億 六千億掉 難怪大家會懷疑啊我們齁 當初在COVID-19的時候 隆重是動漲 影響的是六千億喔 應用的是六千億喔"},{"start":7775.644,"end":7791.317,"text":"我跟妳說,這樣加起來,加那些太多錢,給我的政府應該有應變的技巧,不要說那些理由,替困難解決辦法,好不好?好,今天我回歸正題,電力修正法,"},{"start":7792.418,"end":7817.481,"text":"我一直那電業修正法你們來拜託我說不要啦他說是中央的政策一定要分家106年以前那個民進黨執政的時候台電那時候都是賺了大錢後就像你講的要四大分支要分開像我們國安會的劉子緯說要工程類地好像要做國際的公司一樣"},{"start":7818.919,"end":7838.092,"text":"山西啊,天有不錯的風雲,人算不如天算,你們現在起來說,啊,這樣會死的,不敢分家,不敢分割財產,不敢掠奪財產,你現在說要統一的管理,這個政策裡面,"},{"start":7839.193,"end":7846.941,"text":"我是覺得有諸多的問題存在其實如果賺錢 因為我這麼胖 準備要去賺錢現在了解了 大家心裡想要國家來負擔也有擔當的政府 不要這樣子做那你要怎麼解決這個問題"},{"start":7858.666,"end":7870.39,"text":"我們現在就是要修改,就是說不再把它分割,維持原來的綜合電業的這樣的一個方式您愛民宿,該漲的時候漲,我每天跟你們一起喝酒,有什麼人不喝他那個時候國際物價變動,他叫漲價被罵得要死,會因為失調掙錢"},{"start":7883.976,"end":7908.388,"text":"你們都不可以做,不可以去,現在被台電嚴公啊,苦不堪言蔡議員蔡議員的時候在做的話是10分鐘,你不要6分鐘就站起來了我們在執行的時候你們就怕我們講多話,我愛死你了,邱志偉你什麼時候好朋友"},{"start":7912.781,"end":7931.392,"text":"第一,您高的薪資本來,尤其吃資不容易跟我很要他說我們這個在野黨是真的挺何凡我們是直指何能,幾個要件要出來,但是我要提一個問題給你看核電最多的國家法國,美國也有,日本也有"},{"start":7932.557,"end":7958.313,"text":"中國大陸也有啊你說何時人的安全站是要做到哪裡去做你們的薪資百合不能打破啦你告訴我問題絕對有辦法考慮去解決的怎麼去挖怎麼找找一個卑鄙的地方補資給他們有什麼不一樣都是在找理由找藉口因為你反核一失啊這個薪資百合不而已啊掙錢不薄"},{"start":7959.133,"end":7973.38,"text":"你们讲的呼听口其实里面最重要的问题台湾的合同人才停了合同都被韩国抓走韩国抓走他现在已经建立他自己台湾的合同产业的人才都流失了"},{"start":7974.957,"end":7999.372,"text":"很嚴重那剛剛我們的召委站起來骯髒的食物狗台灣在裡面要特別特別小心尤其中小企業傳統產業會影響更大不管你到越南到哪個地方都會影響到保證要提早應用是你們要做一個報告給我們好好不好這一點第一點"},{"start":8003.767,"end":8032.193,"text":"再來那時候張旭凱委員有問到中油跟阿拉斯加的合作你一直在講異相思異相思表示你有意願叫做異相思是哎呦保證你敢跟美國抗衡嘛450億我知道可能幾個國去參加但是最後不要去買到高的天然氣不要去投資我們只有這五這六我們低的又是高的價格"},{"start":8032.893,"end":8058.385,"text":"美國國債36兆,藝人的利息1兆美金,不給你吃飲料,給你抬抬,他沒辦法解決問題,我不是反對,但是不要買到高樓,再給中油通家困擾,給台電通家困擾,臨北的介紹,比澳洲、比沙地還可以收下來,不然這樣,不然休息啦,你休息啦,"},{"start":8061.887,"end":8079.996,"text":"報告委員 我們從阿拉斯加買油是10天就可以到台灣是運送最短的一個距離第二個 因為安全 我們走的是太平洋這條線運送短喔 澳洲幾天 中東幾天我們賣的豆最笨啦 你們不叫我們的國用四葉車代載的高揚 代載的高揚好不好是謝謝委員知道"},{"start":8095.904,"end":8115.229,"text":"謝謝 請部長請回座謝謝陳昌明委員質詢 非常精彩下一個質詢請這個蔡議員謝謝主席 那有請部長請進部 郭部長"},{"start":8118.288,"end":8121.072,"text":"那台電董事長 台電執行董事長 好"},{"start":8126.671,"end":8150.103,"text":"從早上我們在討論的主要今天我們電液法等一下的修法有討論到整個台電它整個完整性那以及未來台電要面對的一個課題那當然大家也都有討論到電價這件事情當然這個電價就是因為我們之前要用一千億來撥補台電那這個看來這個期待落空所以台電馬上要面對的就是"},{"start":8151.685,"end":8159.915,"text":"這個有這個不足 有短少 可能要用其他的方式但是要不然不敢說我覺得 事實上還是有一些財政手段"},{"start":8161.218,"end":8181.327,"text":"也可以來解決台電的問題因為如果說行政院這一次就是要用1000億來面對台電的這個虧損那我想要把一些台電的一些負債的數據給部長你參考一下部長你可以看台電從105年的時候他每年的利息支出大概是180億"},{"start":8182.808,"end":8200.894,"text":"那你一直看喔 到了111年的時候 它的利息支出 每年利息支出正式到了200億到了114年的時候 每年的利息支出 在我最右下的這一個 320億所以你可以想像 每一年台電就要面對320億利息沒有還本"},{"start":8205.683,"end":8229.319,"text":"光歷史就這樣所以我要跟部長建議的就是說我們還是有財政手段尤其部長你本身就是一個企業家你知道說這個企業面對虧損的時候財政手段也是一個方式那自然要面對財政手段的時候我們再把它去看台電目前跟銀行舉借的未償還的金額類總共有5997億元"},{"start":8235.883,"end":8259.851,"text":"這是KAM銀行的KAM銀行的這個結構我再把它細分起來你看台銀就佔了2000億是佔了37%土地銀行是佔了430億輸出入銀行佔了230億其他在於飯工股又是有包括民營的部分和庫佔的比較多1100億所以我現在要告訴大家關鍵就在財政可以解決這個問題"},{"start":8261.584,"end":8267.715,"text":"如果我們跟財政部大家坐下來講用財政手段難道不能用國庫舉債借給台電嗎"},{"start":8273.341,"end":8299.209,"text":"報告委員台電來跟國庫借利息低先消米這些利息部長是這個命題我想委員在上一個會期就已經有指正過了那我們也充分的在考量所以我們經濟部可能會就我們現在這些舉債來發永續債所以我們如果發永續債我相信我們大概可以"},{"start":8299.949,"end":8319.719,"text":"大概可以少掉這個40%的這個利息可以少40%嘛40%就很多了耶40%的霸華業一年就少了100多億耶所以謝謝委員當時的這個提醒然後你們再仔細去看因為我們的台灣銀行跟土地銀行跟輸出入銀行這三家銀行是百分之百的關股"},{"start":8320.529,"end":8341.297,"text":"所以既然他百分之百關股 我們可以由這三家銀行來主導跟其他的民營銀行來跟他談判 請他們把利息降低如果不降低利息的話 我們就把他還掉還掉的話 他們會很難過的喔 這些民營銀行會很痛苦哇 利息不好啊 他們水的水又好 要降利息 來降"},{"start":8343.054,"end":8356.144,"text":"我們如果發永續債可以降到40%好啊 我期待是說因為有這些財政手段財政手段是可以解決的尤其事實上我們也知道說預算法85條營業基金的預算的主要內容"},{"start":8359.867,"end":8380.56,"text":"有其中一個包括長期債務之舉借及償還長期債務這應該就是柏林你說的永續債既然說如果我們這個長期債務我們由公股銀行來主導的話利息可以談得很低在利息最低的一個情況之下把民營銀行相對利息高的把它沖掉"},{"start":8381.801,"end":8401.567,"text":"台電可以用財政手段來解決現在的這個狀況因為我們現在要面對的就是因為在野黨這個一千億的撥補不會讓台電倒三天嘛我們現在就沒有希望說這個電梯去蓋起來被殺一定會被資金動這是我們執政黨的原罪啊可是我們還是得面對台電的這個狀況"},{"start":8403.007,"end":8404.949,"text":"所以我是覺得這個問題部長你應該帶回去然後跟行政院好好的談我們現在已經跟那個國發會就這個命題你所指導的這個命題已經深入的在檢討"},{"start":8418.064,"end":8445.772,"text":"我希望說這個要把它持續下去是我就很精準的五分鐘謝謝委員五分鐘就完成我的質詢但是我覺得這個真的可以用財政手段對我們幫助非常大部長我相信這是你的專業因為你來自民間你知道民間遇到周轉不靈的時候總是要有一些辦法嘛是好不好不然我們這個再一起加油好不好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝蔡宇竹看楷模令人敬佩"},{"start":8447.678,"end":8475.1,"text":"部長請回座好我們下一位請謝依鳳委員質詢謝謝主席我想要請郭部長請部長"},{"start":8484.349,"end":8510.612,"text":"武林好部長好你看到這是2024年我們主要的機械設備出口的統計看到了第三名的工具機以及當然以下都是傳產的類別在出口的部分消退的非常多就這個部分而言如果"},{"start":8511.758,"end":8532.805,"text":"就是4月開始川普提出對等的關稅然後以及稅收減免主要的就是稅收減免政策來保護他們本土的產業減少貿易逆差那這樣子對於台灣的機械產業跟相關的供應鏈"},{"start":8534.145,"end":8556.02,"text":"是不是要被迫離開有可能去美國嗎那難道還有去哪一個地方呢那對於在台灣的這些傳產業而言勞工的權益以及就是說這些生產的問題要怎麼解決呢報告委員我想工具機這個產業來講應該輸美的機會不大"},{"start":8560.12,"end":8585.183,"text":"因為美國它的製造業其實是停滯很久了所以這一次這個川普總統那麼他要讓美國恢復這個製造業才可能有工具機的這個市場這是首先跟你報告的部分那我們對台灣的這個工具機的產業呢我們在輔導他們我們從兩個方面來輔導他第一個就提升他的技術力"},{"start":8586.224,"end":8606.538,"text":"提升它的技术力现在已经在台中有很多工具机的厂商导入AI智慧制造那这个对他们来讲未来在这个制造的这个领域的竞争力是提升非常多的第二个他们可能缺乏订单所以我们现在经济部的国贸署会针对几个市场"},{"start":8607.838,"end":8631.015,"text":"主要的市場我們會用台灣一個印象然後去那個地方來做推廣希望能夠讓台灣的工具機產業可以結合國家的力量我們國貿署過去大概就是只有讓外貿協會在市場上面去做一些展覽"},{"start":8631.835,"end":8646.392,"text":"但展覽以後大概就很少去follow up因為它的目的不在於產業的follow up不過從現在開始我們有請國貿署的同仁一定要在後續針對台灣這幾個傳統產業"},{"start":8649.615,"end":8668.861,"text":"給予協助也就是說我們在這個當地國我們可以找到通路商然後來告訴他們希望能夠取得通路商那麼對我們也去了解工具機工會他們需要這個我們政府什麼樣的這個協助所以我們也不斷的跟這個這幾個產業產業工會在討論"},{"start":8672.682,"end":8696.437,"text":"那我現在對於這個供應鏈的部分我們從今年開始改變就是說對供應鏈的部分我們希望能夠紮根在台灣特別是現在有很多的產業特別受美國的影響它需要的是非紅供應鏈也就是說紅色的供應鏈過去在世界上面的肆虐的部分"},{"start":8698.518,"end":8715.924,"text":"會轉來台灣因為如果台灣能夠替代的話我們就這個新的市場就產生了但是我要先講你說到了就是要協助他們就是導入AI然後再打磨或是相關方面其實目前中小企業他們"},{"start":8717.065,"end":8738.417,"text":"都還沒有開始所以我們從現在開始從下個月開始我們已經都內部溝通過了我們所有的法人機構一定要把那個產業裡面所需要的AI的這個技術跟AI的應用跟AI的那個應用場域都把它建設起來然後讓這中小微企業進來學習"},{"start":8740.151,"end":8769.323,"text":"你不主張他們離開台灣嗎沒有沒有沒有他們的我們有很多的方法就是說第一個他接近市場如果接近市場我們輔導他到這個接近市場的地方如果他是在台灣才有這些resource我們協助他在台灣壯大然後讓他我們以大帶小讓這些產業能夠集結因為我們過去的問題是規模太小"},{"start":8770.243,"end":8792.726,"text":"規模太小難以因應中國的這個大型的企業的這種這種拓展所以我們現在改變模式把台灣的中小微企業能夠整合的整合那麼強化他的這個競爭力我相信這樣子來跟這個再加上這個飛鴻供應鏈我們的機會是非常高的所以我必須要提醒部長"},{"start":8793.564,"end":8820.355,"text":"那除了在就是說台灣以外當然很多的台商已經就是過去因為關稅的問題等等的都已經轉移到東南亞相關的國家去了那所以這一波的就是美國的對等的關稅當然就會對於這些其他在東南亞的台商也會造成了相當的影響那當然在過去以來就是有台灣接單嘛那就是其他地製造然後再輸美的這樣子一個現象"},{"start":8821.415,"end":8835.251,"text":"當然我們要怎麼樣子讓這些問題也是應該要注意到怎麼樣子通盤的一個解決那再來就是因為我的時間到了只是我要"},{"start":8836.052,"end":8858.431,"text":"跟部長說的 今天我們是在討論電業法的修法其實從上一屆開始 我們對於第六條電業法的第六條 輸配電就不應該從台電分離因為我們知道目前沒有分離都已經造成電價上漲的壓力這麼大了"},{"start":8860.273,"end":8883.671,"text":"那如果分離以後可能會對於電價那還是電價的那個上漲的壓力會更大你要看到外國的現象他們在輸配電分離的情況下會造成外國的民眾他們的電價的那個電費的費率是比台灣高非常多的"},{"start":8883.971,"end":8905.781,"text":"所以如果今天第六條我們沒有把它修回來的話那可能會對於我們的這個電價的這個未來的因應會更大的產生那所以我主張我是支持楊瓊英委員等的這樣子的第六條的修正希望說我們經濟部可以來好好的面對謝謝是謝謝委員"},{"start":8908.783,"end":8931.324,"text":"好謝謝我們謝一鳳委員下一位請鄭天才委員質詢主席各位委員有請部長請部長"},{"start":8941.568,"end":8954.323,"text":"您好部長好這個大家還是非常關心這個電價這個調漲的部分那上次也跟部長提到了這個我們電費漲價"},{"start":8957.018,"end":8960.381,"text":"這個除了在20152015的4月10月還有2016的4月曾經降過降價電費漲價降價那一直到2022年開始聯繫上漲了聯繫上漲"},{"start":8979.173,"end":8984.415,"text":"雖然政府以人民的納稅錢分別在2023年對台電增資1500億2023年特別預算補貼500億2024年再增資1000億 總共3000億但是台電調帳還是調帳"},{"start":9001.821,"end":9025.914,"text":"從2022年這個2023、2024到今年的2024的10月今年就2027年就兩次所以這樣的一個情形這個就是上次我一再的來講如果我們看這個台電公司近10年這個"},{"start":9029.347,"end":9049.061,"text":"雲宇的部分從103年都賺錢到110年總共加起來就是2332億這個賺的錢如果再加上政府人民的納稅錢以了撥補給台電的3000億總共就有5300多億然後從111年度"},{"start":9059.917,"end":9086.256,"text":"开始严重的亏损这里面有提到有提到俄乌战争大家不能否认俄乌战争是其中之一而事实上很大的因素很大的因素就是能源政策上次跟部长提到这个总统府气候变迁委员会副召集人"},{"start":9087.196,"end":9114.966,"text":"合授董事長童子賢在這個教育文化委員會特別提到核電可以年省N個千億這個N個千億其實是如果按照他的計算是15個千億按照童子賢的計算最多可以到15個千億所以這是一個"},{"start":9116.653,"end":9144.01,"text":"政策也有很大的因素所以這個部分如果我一再講可能我不知道我一直還沒有你們也沒有提供數字給我就是說因為我們的政策好 綠電能源署編了很多經費經濟部編了很多經費對不對協助這些綠電對不對然後台電又比較高的金額去買"},{"start":9147.473,"end":9166.777,"text":"所以這個部分部長如果你搖頭你把數字提供給我因為我已經從你第一次不只是你們還有能源署包括如果你從我第一次的質詢來講對不對我常說你是這個產業進來的我們光看那個核四對不對"},{"start":9173.885,"end":9201.68,"text":"可是花了多少個億然後就擺在那邊根本就不符合那個嘛好重點齁重點時間的關係了齁電價審議委會預計28日前登場之前28日之前所以這個部分啊當然部長一直說我沒有參與我沒有主持沒有錯但是很多的資料很多的資訊"},{"start":9203.649,"end":9228.123,"text":"必須要由台電必須要由經濟部提供給電價審議委員會讓所有的委員能夠了解而這個資訊而這個資料就會很重要會很重要所以這個到底要不要漲其實可以不漲"},{"start":9230.137,"end":9259.302,"text":"所以很多的 也許這個經濟部說我們核能政策我們賴總統不會隨隨便便找個何同志賢去當那個總統府的委員 副...副...副...對不對 一定是有他的找你也是總統請你當部長 一定也有他的考量啊是希望要你勇敢的這個政策"},{"start":9260.015,"end":9287.87,"text":"來去推動好我們先提供一個從法例法例有明定的我們先從法例離島建設條例第14條規定離島用水用電比照台灣本島平均費力收集其營運單位應該向費力收費制產生之合理虧損由中央目的事業主管機關審核後編列預算"},{"start":9289.744,"end":9310.054,"text":"波普之所以法律有明定的我們由台電這幾年都是台電去吸收那政府應該編的預算對一千多億的預算都沒有編所以我們先從法律有的"},{"start":9311.109,"end":9338.468,"text":"先做 可以嗎 部長好 我們當然依法遵法就有法律有的我們來做對 這個沒有做的 要做是有了這個 誰都不能擋啊對不對 法律明定的趕快編預算追加預算嘛 可以辦追加預算謝謝 以上 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員來 下一位請鐘嘉斌委員"},{"start":9351.141,"end":9378.667,"text":"主席 在場委員 先進列席政治決斷事項委員會長 公眾夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請經濟部國部長還有能源署的李代理署長還有台電的曾董事長台電曾董事長這次換個題目啊好 部長好 委員好 署長好 董事長好我今天的題目呢是提升離散型光電區匱限覆蓋率受電是受於地面發展虛擬電廠好 我們今天討論的主題是電業法電業法大家都講了 都支持第六條 當時把受電"},{"start":9381.474,"end":9409.762,"text":"供電跟發電都把它拆開來但是我們看到台灣是能源進口國所以我們想要透過市場競爭提高效率讓我們的發電端有效率讓我們的受電端能夠加強管理是不是這樣子 部長那現在這些目標都達成了嘛好 所以我們支持電網修改好 往下看但是現在台電池需要加強的電網韌性像我們台電池的輸配電網雖然是智能壟斷但是相對我覺得後來才到相對是高的"},{"start":9410.262,"end":9436.322,"text":"因為 部長你也去過這個國家你常常舉這個例子我去過菲律賓 參觀過他的電力公司他的綠電潛力充沛 成本不到10塊錢但是人民終端的售價高達8塊錢 原因出在哪裡電網的效率差所以現在台電呢 我們政府編列預投入呢5645億 強化電網韌性除了設備更新之外 要透過智慧化還有一個電網韌性 災後的附電能力部長 是不是支持 是不是這樣子"},{"start":9436.582,"end":9454.279,"text":"是的報告委員這個上面所寫10年內投入5645億已經修改為4年了4年了很好我們繼續支持往下看但是另外一個發電端我們看看現在台灣大概陸上型的光電的大面積的大規模的大概都已經開發差不多了這當中"},{"start":9455.32,"end":9484.34,"text":"匱限跟生壓站161KV的廠商要自建台電有這樣的要求但是接下來會遇到什麼董事長請你過來小面積的跟離散型的我舉例檳榔廢原轉做成綠電董事長總經理比較清楚了其實在靠近鄉親聚落未來的光電路上開發只剩這些地區但這些地區缺乏22跟11KV的請問總經理未來台電在匱限的分布上這個部分的覆蓋率可不可以提升"},{"start":9486.041,"end":9501.481,"text":"這個部分就跟委員這張圖上面一樣大面積的部分就走上面那條手法小面積的話就是台電會去處理我們會鼓勵在這方面的工作所以部長剛剛講五千多有四年內喔我們希望部長只是台電這個部分的部分強化可不可以 部長可以喔 部長點頭"},{"start":9503.869,"end":9522.828,"text":"報告委員可以好那接下來呢請部長要督導台電董總做這件事情電網的韌性我舉例因為我跟董事長一樣都是台電子弟我們很清楚災後的復電能力的第一淹水後的復電程序繁瑣這是第三次講了配電室地下變電淹水之後要抽出積水要清潔要乾燥要檢修才能復電"},{"start":9523.829,"end":9535.11,"text":"很久然後呢又有什麼問題問到什麼問題因為在出在我們台電的用戶配電場所設置及管理辦法第六條本來配電室應該設置在地面"},{"start":9535.936,"end":9560.273,"text":"地面層 但是得設於地下一層這也在建築技術規則的建築設備邊也有同樣的規定一邊是台電經濟部規定的 一邊是內政部規定的好 造成什麼問題 我們往下看現在台電在後面有新增設一個用電配電場所的設置規範准許它只要起照人切結 配電室設計師就會設在地下一樓"},{"start":9561.425,"end":9589.544,"text":"好 部長 問一個比較基本的問題您覺得大樓的連續壁 哪裡最容易漏水考一下 往下看 直接 知道嗎不知道 往下看連續壁啊 就是要設管先要洗凍的地方它要不是沒有補好 就是管太密漏水之後呢 如果是在保固期限內 它就會打針如果過了保期呢 它就置之不理 起造廠不理了喔管毀不修 配電池就會淹水淹水會不會影響供電 影響電網的東西 會嘛"},{"start":9590.925,"end":9614.98,"text":"是好所以這些問題要怎麼解決要修改規則修改哪兩個規則台電的用電規則跟建築技術規範部長你要跟內政部協調督導台電趕快去改好不好好最後一個時間到了智慧化我們都知道有智慧電表才有時間電價有時間電價我們才能用電管理對不對但是同樣的如果配電是設在地下訊號不良智慧電表無所用於擁有之地對不對"},{"start":9616.4,"end":9641.469,"text":"所以這個規則要不要趕快改我們來修正好 修正好那第二個電動車其實是會移動的儲能裝置現在很多的室內的停車場我們希望有充電樁但是我們希望未來下一個 虛擬電廠下一個希望能夠加上屋頂型的光電受電室設於地面層這些建築官調了之後時電電廈可以做虛擬電廠可以做部長可不可以責任台電趕快進行相關的研發"},{"start":9643.09,"end":9670.558,"text":"是 我們來努力好 所以最後兩個東西就請你承諾請研議離散型光電在鄉村居住地區的匱限覆蓋率提升的方案三個月內提出一個報告 可以嗎可以好 另外呢 也去進行法規的調適讓台電的受電室設於地面 以利於發展虛擬電廠也是這樣 三個月提出一個書面報告 可以嗎好的好 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝委員謝謝謝謝鍾嘉斌委員那下一位請黃建豪委員"},{"start":9678.393,"end":9680.185,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們請經濟部部長請部長"},{"start":9689.93,"end":9713.233,"text":"部長好 外委才三分鐘 我們把握時間了過去台電提到說 今天修電源法 我們要確認一下過去本來想要說把這個發電 輸配電跟售電拆成三個國營公司到目前為止 過去本來說要延到6到9年後 2026年之前來把它完成但是此時此刻 這個計畫還會繼續進行嗎還是會全部都回歸到我們台電一間公司就好了"},{"start":9713.795,"end":9740.271,"text":"報告委員我們希望修為原來的這個綜合電業就是按照現行就好了嘛不用再切成三家公司了嘛我是要跟部長確認這個事情因為我想切成三家公司啊我這個對很多的這個台電的基層員工的士氣會一定程度的打擊啦所以我們還是希望這個如果部長這樣講的話我想朝野應該是會一定的共識啦這部分我想會有共識啦那我想電業法的修正我想進度會稍微快一點謝謝委員"},{"start":9740.771,"end":9759.319,"text":"好 部長那再來就請教一下部長在上禮拜總質詢的時候部長你回應我一件事情你說這個我們現在推動很多的綠電是因為我們希望我們企業在海外發展的時候有比較好的這個績效跟成本嘛然後我想問一下這個現在綠電的這個成本你希望說是由企業來承擔"},{"start":9760.74,"end":9788.249,"text":"一般民眾用的比較少上禮拜是這樣講的我不知道我們有理解錯部長的意思我們的這個電基本上是多元來發電那綠電基本上是這樣就是說我們要符合2050年零碳的這樣的一個全球的共識但是綠電這一個命題其實是歐洲的國家他們的一個歐盟的一個規範所以他們都在推動綠電所以我們今天台灣製造業"},{"start":9791.435,"end":9806.462,"text":"賣的東西是全球都有啦那如果他到這個比較符合這個歐盟歐洲國家的規範的話他們都要求要有綠電2030年開始要有百分之百綠電那所以我們必須要供這樣的綠電給這個輸出到歐盟的國家"},{"start":9809.983,"end":9822.856,"text":"如果說今天是這個這個零碳的這個可能是其他的這個部長因為我時間不夠我直接問直接一點啦因為在台電現行的規準裡面有很大的一個部分當然是綠電的這個採購嘛"},{"start":9824.918,"end":9846.889,"text":"那我今天要講的問題是說我們假設因為先聽今天這禮拜又要審所謂定價審議委會那後續有體力法院的補貼等等的這個所謂補貼一千一兩千億裡面的補貼有沒有包含說因為採購綠電的外購綠電的價格的虧損所以也需要這樣的補貼不是 報告委員我們在補貼的部分是在補在過去2019年的這個COVID-19因為烏鶴戰爭的影響而導致於我們買的這個發電的這個材料成本上漲"},{"start":9854.591,"end":9872.564,"text":"我們一共在這三四年期間大概漲了六千億我們因為動漲所以我們成本上漲六千億雖然謝謝大院來補助我們大概加起來三千億不過我們還是差三千億所以綠電的部分不是在這裡面嗎不是在這裡面好 部長謝謝"},{"start":9873.385,"end":9895.79,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們黃建豪委員非常精準的使用三分鐘 謝謝等一下我們審法案的時候可以再來發言來 下一位請林思敏委員 林思敏委員 林思敏委員不在請羅明財委員 羅明財委員 羅明財委員不在請徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在好 下一位請陳培宇委員發言後影片慢慢來沒關係 我先說"},{"start":9900.558,"end":9902.662,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請台電董事長 謝謝"},{"start":9911.571,"end":9931.399,"text":"我想問一下 二屋戰爭造成能源價格上漲 世界其他國家到底都如何應對是不是跟台灣一樣也有政府補貼的部分 可不可以請您回答告訴我目前世界各國的趨勢 謝謝我據我所了解 德國 日本 法國的補助金額都超過台幣五千億"},{"start":9932.299,"end":9959.466,"text":"是 那這個數字是去年跟前年也就是說它是近幾年可參考很重要的數字嗎是好 那如果是這樣聽起來那法定委員補充報告就是不只補貼其實他們也漲價喔 又漲價又漲價又補貼又補貼那他們的補貼竟然聽起來其實比台灣高很多是的好 那聽起來呢那我問一下這些補貼電價或者是漲電價的國家是不是也都使用核電核電的占比比我們還高嗎"},{"start":9961.267,"end":9982.781,"text":"日本跟法國確實都使用核電那法國的核電比例非常高好 所以看起來這跟很多人在那邊喊說是錯誤的能源政策有關我認為聽起來沒有關係而是這整個能源價格上漲的問題看起來是全世界的所有國家在追求經濟發展 兼顧民生福利的時候大家共同的難題我可以下這個結論嗎"},{"start":9984.448,"end":9999.787,"text":"那個能源價格上漲會造成通膨通膨以後國家的公共支出會更大那其實他們是先漲價通膨以後政府才補貼這個其實造成的惡性循環其實後果是更嚴重跟台灣台灣狀況是台電"},{"start":10002.892,"end":10002.952,"text":"好 聽到你"},{"start":10018.373,"end":10035.913,"text":"剛剛說承擔政策台電我來跟董事長分享一個我目前在服務金門跟連江線那這兩個線我想長期董事長一定清楚他們的發電成本都比較高那也因為發電成本高所以長期以來台電都給予非常大的優惠價格給予相關的撥補跟補助可不可以說一下這個現況"},{"start":10037.486,"end":10061.416,"text":"跟委員報告就因為機組的關係所以他們每一度電帶平均成本都超過10塊錢那委員這個簡報上面已經清楚的呈現就是這兩個離島大概一年一年要補貼30幾億但是我現在身為要服務離島的委員我很擔心不管是陳雪生委員或是陳玉珍委員他們藍白一起砍掉這個相關的預算然後目前又拒絕任何的可能性我想問一下我們離島居民怎麼辦"},{"start":10064.806,"end":10082.336,"text":"你也沒辦法報告委員我們這樣講台電還有一個很基本的任務就是即使財務困難我們也要充分供電這個充分供電並且確保合理的電價讓離島的居民在享受這個便利發電同時跟台灣本島的使用電價是一樣的不然說白了對不對"},{"start":10085.057,"end":10104.051,"text":"所以相關政策困難 我想後續我們再來討論也希望大院支持我們的補貼預算我希望我的藍白同事們支持啦好 謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員那下一位請林德福委員 林德福委員 林德福委員不在下一位請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長"},{"start":10114.795,"end":10128.553,"text":"有請部長委員好部長時間的關係直接切入主題"},{"start":10129.932,"end":10154.338,"text":"我們要發展地熱經濟部之前有委託公司在馬槽地區就是陽明山國家公園管理處去辦地質的專探那去年年底的時候跟社會報告地熱的成果封鎖然後在馬槽地熱探勘警也有去顯看"},{"start":10155.718,"end":10176.244,"text":"但我要跟部長說的是因為最近一段時間我接到在陽明山那邊不管是居民還是旅客他們一直反映來那個部長你看一下照片那這些照片都是當地在那邊的居民或是遊客看不下去他們提供的"},{"start":10177.264,"end":10205.316,"text":"12月16號的時候就發生了井噴噪音的污染12月17號的時候持續的井噴引發噪音我把時間軸大概拉拉到現在最近一次去看的時候這個井噴的現場還是沒有處理從去年12月到現在3月整整三個多月這件事情部長有沒有掌握"},{"start":10208.031,"end":10212.72,"text":"這個部分我不是那麼清楚我可不可以請能源署長來跟您"},{"start":10216.287,"end":10244.992,"text":"這口井是我們地礦中心做的實驗井現在我的問題是從12月到3月都沒處理現在是在幹嘛是他現在已經先把這個井封掉了然後後期地礦中心會再跟這個廠商來做處理要怎麼處理他已經先把這個井封掉你現在井封了嗎是你確定嗎是什麼時候封的他現在就在封現在進行是嗎是什麼時候會封完"},{"start":10246.38,"end":10274.051,"text":"呃 我再跟地方中心聯絡一下看他技術問題什麼什麼我先跟經濟部講要攤勘遞熱這件事情大家都不反對但施工施成這個樣子對當地的居民對旅客都造成了相當大的負面衝擊這件事情不是去年才發生2023年4月的時候是不是就有發生過一次是吧"},{"start":10275.836,"end":10289.165,"text":"我知道都調出來啦你們2023年4月的時候就放任他已經被亂搞沒有依照計畫執行也沒有依照計畫通報到2024年要發生2023年只有發生過一次嗎"},{"start":10293.499,"end":10311.365,"text":"學長你知不知道這個細節是不是我們請他來我跟你講細節2023年7月再次噴發硫化氫的濃度高達90ppm知不知道濃化氫法定的標準是多少知道嗎10ppm超過了9倍"},{"start":10315.41,"end":10335.746,"text":"超過了九倍這是2023年發生的事情2023年沒有處理繼續放任在那邊胡搞瞎搞到2024年年底的時候又再度發生搞到現在還沒有整個處理完畢來 請教一下什麼時候可以處理完"},{"start":10337.865,"end":10359.337,"text":"我們是不是請地方中心整理一下然後跟委員報告因為這個案是地方中心在執行可以 需要多久我們請地方中心大概一個禮拜內先跟委員這邊做一個說明不用啦 不用說明就順便回覆再給你們一個禮拜的時間因為那邊的居民還有很多旅客大家都受夠了"},{"start":10364.195,"end":10392.412,"text":"那個主席站起來了3月7號決定要封警回復原狀這個是3月11號12號現場沒有工作人員繼續放在那邊那你現在跟我講說是現在進行是正在做嗎一個禮拜之內順便回復可以嗎可以盡速把它處理完喔好 謝謝好 一個禮拜回復回復給那個執行委員跟本會好 謝謝"},{"start":10396.377,"end":10412.357,"text":"好 那我們下一位請葉元之委員質詢主席好 麻煩請經濟部長 謝謝有請部長"},{"start":10423.379,"end":10452.645,"text":"委員好部長好就是之前中鋼有配合政策要投資一個翻供股的售電平台台製電這個您知道那當時部長我看到你說台製電它的目標其實是應該要提供小額綠電還有短期綠電需求特別是以中小企業為主否則如果是不然的話中小企業它很難跟大企業去競爭綠電綠電的風場那些應該都比較喜歡賣給大企業利益良善讓中小企業有綠電可以用"},{"start":10453.385,"end":10469.081,"text":"那我先問一下第一個那個中鋼現在確定是有出資一千萬嘛然後另外中華電電信還有中油都有投資那本來是說要進行第二階段的募資跟其他民營企業募那現在募的狀況怎麼樣這個目前還在募的這個過程"},{"start":10476.755,"end":10500.121,"text":"你了解狀況是怎樣我了解的狀況應該是因為如果說第二階段資金沒到位的話他可能六月就沒有辦法開始售電嘛報告委員應該民間的企業應該都已經到資了啦都已經到資了所以確定六月可以開始售電也是的好那第二個齁因為我看新聞報導他說開始售電之後第一波的買主還是以大型企業為主"},{"start":10501.653,"end":10520.089,"text":"那如果說行有餘力才會再賣給第二波中小企業那這個部分就跟部長你當初報告委員我想也許這個資料您的手邊的資料可能這個我們這邊有一點差異那沒關係你說我們還是以中小企業為例"},{"start":10520.669,"end":10538.156,"text":"所以第一波還是會以中小企業為主我們還是以不會以大型企業為主的因為新聞報導這些部分因為有一些小的需求台電已經開始這個在賣那個R1-30好再來第三個因為台次電它的電價不知道你知道多少嗎一度大概賣多少"},{"start":10540.138,"end":10559.492,"text":"這個我不清楚大概六塊多還沒賣啊沒有沒有預計啦大概是六塊多預計的都不清楚大概六塊那他的成本會比較高啦因為他還要把營運成本還有其他疊加上去嘛所以如果他的售電電價是比較貴的話其實對中小企業來說也是一個負擔不會"},{"start":10560.595,"end":10586.505,"text":"所以他的店價大概是多少台製店如果透過台製店我知道啦但是因為六月就好你是主管機關嘛六月要開始賣了那個他們價格應該在他們的董事會裡面決定的董事會裡面決定我不是董事那如果所以你會盡量不會讓他太貴是不是因為你的目的是要保障這個公司成立的目的是要給中小企業可以買到合理的價格對"},{"start":10587.885,"end":10605.82,"text":"主要是這個樣子因為市場上面很多的綠電公司他直接賣給客戶那小公司他可能不符合他的要件就是說要簽20年固定的量那這個對小公司來講百分之一太大所以我現在只是提醒部長你還是會以專好企業為主第二個電價你們不會賣太貴不會讓專好企業覺得買到太貴一點否則的話成本提高也比較難經營謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10617.891,"end":10634.776,"text":"好謝謝葉元之委員那我們登記發言委員除不在場者不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林德福所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":10637.797,"end":10666.946,"text":"好我們現在進行審查電業法部分條文第6條及第74條條文修正草案現在進行廣泛討論沒有廣泛討論沒有人登記那我們現在請議事人員宣讀所有條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再行協商宣讀時我們請官員因為早上開到現在都沒有休息那官員可以在宣讀的時候先休息"},{"start":10667.547,"end":10668.518,"text":"好那請宣讀"},{"start":10669.81,"end":10697.796,"text":"行政院提案第二條修正第一款電業只依本法核准之發電業、輸配電業、售電業及特定電力供應業第二款至第六款同線型條文第七款莫具修正為並與銷售之非公用事業其餘文字同線型條文第八款特定電力供應業只以執行需量反應措施設置儲能設備或其他電力供應方式參與電力交易平台之非公用事業"},{"start":10699.429,"end":10706.135,"text":"現行條文第八款至第十款一列為第九款至第十一款、第十二款儲能設備指儲存電能並穩定電力系統之設備包含儲能組件"},{"start":10711.796,"end":10730.759,"text":"電力轉換及電能管理系統等現行條文第11款及第12款一列為第13款及第14款現行條文第13款一列為第15款並著作文字修正現行條文第14款至第24款一列為第16款至第26款內容未修正"},{"start":10731.46,"end":10758.146,"text":"委員邱志維等人提案第二條同行政院提案條文行政院提案第六條刪除現行條文第一項第五項及第六項現行條文第三項一列為第一項第二項修正為疏配電業兼營電業或其他事業應以不影響其業務經營及不妨礙公平競爭並經電業管制機關核准者違憲現行條文第四項一列至第三項內容未修正"},{"start":10759.417,"end":10788.132,"text":"委員林代化等人提案第6條第一項手續修正為輸配電業兼營發電業售電業及以外之其他事業其餘文字同行政院提案第二項第二項同行政院提案第一項第三項同行政院提案第三項委員楊瓊英等人提案第6條除第一項手續修正為輸配電業兼營發電業售電業及電業以外之其他事業其餘文字同委員林代化等人提案"},{"start":10788.712,"end":10815.874,"text":"委員邱瑩等人提案第六條同委員楊瓊英等人提案委員邱志偉等人提案第六條同行政院提案條文行政院提案第十一條第一項目據修正為得設立公開透明之電力交易平台其餘文字同線型條文第二項同線型條文第三項電業管制機關因視電力市場之發展情況檢討電力交易平台之運作模式及成效"},{"start":10817.342,"end":10840.168,"text":"並得設立具獨立性交易單位或要求電力交易平台設置者採取強化中立性運作之相關措施現行條文第三項一列為第四項文字修正為第一項及第三項電力交易平台之成員組織實行交易管理中立性運作措施之內容及其他應遵行事項之規則由電業管制機關定之"},{"start":10844.069,"end":10859.326,"text":"委員邱志偉等人提案第十一條除第三項目據修正為並得要求電力交易平台設置者採取強化中立性運作這相關措施第四項同線型條文其餘文字同行政院提案"},{"start":10860.973,"end":10875.885,"text":"行政院提案第15條第一項至第4項同線型條文第5項特定電力供應業以設置儲能設備或其他設備之方式進行電力供應者應於設置前向電液管制機關申請同意"},{"start":10876.705,"end":10891.682,"text":"備案並於完成設置後申請核發電業執照性行條文第五項一列為第六項首具修正為受電業及特定電力供應業應填具申請書其餘文字未修正第七項"},{"start":10892.623,"end":10910.637,"text":"本法中华民国某年某月某日修正之条文施行前已以执行虚量反应措施设置储能设备或其他电力供应方式参与电力交易平台者应于修正施行之日起算一年内取得电液执照借其未取得者不得营业"},{"start":10911.337,"end":10927.903,"text":"委員邱志偉等人提案第十五條第一項至第四項同行政院提案條文第五項同行政院提案條文第六項第六項後段修正為因於修正施行後一年內申請核發電業執照借其未申請或已申請"},{"start":10929.52,"end":10949.895,"text":"但未取得定業執照者不得參與電力交易平台之交易其餘文字同行政院提案第七項行政院提案第十九條疏配電業及公用受電業不得停業或歇業發電業再生能源受電業及特定電力供應業之停業或歇業應依下列規定辦理"},{"start":10951.107,"end":10979.556,"text":"一 于停业前应检据停业计划向电业管制机关申请核准停业期间不得超过一年二 于歇业前应检据歇业计划向电业管制机关申请核准并于歇业之日起算15日内将电业执照报缴电业管制机关注销借其为报缴者电业管制机关得进行注销委员邱志伟等人提案第19条同行政院提案条文"},{"start":10980.276,"end":11008.334,"text":"行政院提案第24條處於具中工作許可證後增訂同意備案緞號等字其餘文字同現行條文委員邱志偉等人提案第24條同行政院提案條文行政院提案第35條處手續修正為發電業、輸配電業及特定電力供應業發生各類災害緊急事故或有前條所定情形時其餘文字同現行條文"},{"start":11009.375,"end":11029.154,"text":"委員邱志偉等人提案第35條同行政院提案行政院提案第47條刪除縣刑條文第一項及第二項縣刑條文第三項及第四項一列至第一項及第二項內容同縣刑條文委員邱志偉等人提案第47條同行政院提案條文"},{"start":11029.875,"end":11053.612,"text":"行政院提案第74條第一項序文著修文字第一款及第二款同線型條文第三款修正為違反第19條第一項規定停業或歇業或違反第19條第二項規定未經核准擅自停業或歇業第四款制定10款同線型條文刪除線型條文第11款線型條文"},{"start":11054.676,"end":11074.547,"text":"第十二款 以列為第十一款 守據修正為違反第四十七條第一項規定其餘文字同線型條文線型條文第十三款至第十五款 以列為第十二款至第十四款第二項守據修正為由前項第二款 第七款至第十四款情形之一"},{"start":11075.147,"end":11100.086,"text":"经电业管制机关处罚其余文字同现行条文委员赖世保等人提案第74条第一项删除现行条文第六款以下款次依序第一文字同现行条文第二项手续修正为有前项第二款第六款至第14款情形之一经电业管制机关处罚其余文字同行政院提案第二项"},{"start":11101.693,"end":11124.728,"text":"電液位依第28條第一項規定符合公告之電力排碳係數基準其罰還裁罰公示如下實際電力排碳係數減公告電力排碳係數乘受電度數乘每公斤碳費等於罰還金額前項碳費之排放量計算方法依據氣候邊遷因應法第28條規定訂定之"},{"start":11126.949,"end":11152.031,"text":"委員邱志偉等人提案第74條同行政院提案條文委員鄭振琴等人提案第74條除第三項墨具修正為其罰還計算公示如下實際電力排碳係數減公告電力排碳係數乘以受電度數乘每公斤碳費等於裁罰金額其餘文字同委員賴士寶等人提案第74條"},{"start":11153.43,"end":11176.592,"text":"行政院提案第75條序文左語修正第二款修正為違反第6條第一項規定未建立分別計算盈虧之會計制度或進行交叉補貼第二項規定未經核准而經營電業或其他事業或違反第三項所定準則中有關會計分離制度會計處理之方法程序與原則"},{"start":11177.453,"end":11196.822,"text":"或会计监督及管理之规定且情节重大其余文字同现行条文委员邱志伟等人第75条除第二款修正为违反第6条第一项规定未建立分别计算盈亏之会计制度或交叉补贴第二项规定未经核准"},{"start":11197.372,"end":11222.027,"text":"而兼營其他事業其餘通現行條文行政院提案第78條之一電力交易平台設置者為依電業管制機關依第11條第3項規定之要求採取強化中立性運作之相關措施電業管制機關應通知其限期改善借其為改善者處心台幣50萬元以上500萬元以下罰還並按次處罰"},{"start":11226.246,"end":11246.387,"text":"行政院提案第八十條第一項手續修正為發電業輸配電業及特定電力供應業未依第35條規定通報墨具修正為按次處罰第二項墨具修正為按次處罰其餘文字同現行條文委員邱志偉等人提案第八十條同行政院提案條文"},{"start":11247.898,"end":11265.497,"text":"委員張祺凱本人所提修正動議第11條中央主管機關應於115年12月31日前協助統籌並設立獨立之電力交易所電力交易所之成員組織實行交易管理及其他應遵行事項之規則"},{"start":11266.758,"end":11293.416,"text":"及相關規定與制度應另訂法令辦理電力交易所之設立是以建立公開、透明、公平、合理、市場效率之電力交易機制為目標媒合國內電力供需為目的並應整合既有電力交易平台之業務納入包括再生能源電能交易、蓄量反應及囤購機制等既有之電力交易及調度措施"},{"start":11294.614,"end":11321.581,"text":"除因合約履約期間外台灣電力股份有限公司配合中央主管機關辦理前項短購需量反映再生能源電能交易等由原電力交易平台經營之業務因與電力交易所成立時已並終止相關合約到期後亦不得再續約並與電力交易所辦理相關電力交易事宜電力交易所成立後所生之"},{"start":11322.691,"end":11348.002,"text":"交易爭議應由電業管制機關進行爭議調處第47條第1項至第4項同線型條文第5項修正為公用受電業應推出保證一定比例來自再生能源發電之銷售方案或一定比例來自於低碳發電之低碳電力銷售方案宣讀完畢"},{"start":11351.937,"end":11380.708,"text":"好 那已經宣讀完畢那我們現在要開始協商協商前主席宣告本會陳情非委員等17人提案電業法部分條文修正草案業經院會第三會第二次會議交付本會其內容與除第52條條文之外其餘條文與行政院版本相同以上"},{"start":11381.653,"end":11396.107,"text":"另外新增徐欣盈委員的書面質詢來我們現在進行協商那我們現在先進行電業法第二條的條文來請問第二條的條文是不是行政院可以說明一下"},{"start":11401.313,"end":11420.161,"text":"第二條的條文主要是增加在名詞定義裡面增加了一個特定電力供應業那也就是說我們現在實質上對於電力的供應過去傳統的電業法大概只有定義發電機這種東西那但是我們未來真正在實行的時候比如說我們有這個"},{"start":11422.522,"end":11447.138,"text":"電池儲能設備那目前是沒有在法令規範裡面那另外一方面現在我們實際有在運作的像台電公司一個蓄量反應的制度那麼目前實際有在運作但是在法裡面也沒有法律的基礎那我們覺得這個目前實質參與市場運作的都應該納入電業法那麼納入電業法之後才能建立相關的管理制度"},{"start":11447.958,"end":11458.517,"text":"以上報告 建議照行政院版通過啦好 那如果沒有其他異議的話 就照行政院版本通過來處理第六條 那第六條是不是也請能源局說明"},{"start":11459.997,"end":11474.087,"text":"第六條是剛才各位委員討論很多的就是要維持台電原來的綜合電業的型態那所以我們在法令裡面做一個調整原來我們有把輸配電業跟發電業這些東西來做分開那剛才因為我們過去在"},{"start":11478.17,"end":11504.725,"text":"原來訂電業法的時候那麼時候是2017年那時候大概我們綠能也少那全世界的趨勢也是要走向自由化但是這幾年變化之後世界的趨勢已經慢慢走向要加強電力的管理機構的功能那另外一方面我們的綠能推動那麼最近也已經增加了很多那事實上在整個電力系統裡面也需要有一個穩定支持的"},{"start":11506.046,"end":11513.335,"text":"所以我們建議我們在第六條的部分來做一個調整能夠維持台電公司綜合電業的定位"},{"start":11527.045,"end":11549.627,"text":"好那我們現在這一條就先照院版通過好那我們現在處理第11條第11條是有關為了建立電力市場公平的調度機制那我們這裡面特別來規定這個未來的電力調度要基於公平公正的原則那必要的時候可以設立一個公開透明的交易平台"},{"start":11550.043,"end":11569.944,"text":"也就是說 目前由台電公司來進行 但是未來如果越來越蓬勃的時候那我們是得設立一個獨立的交易平台沒有意見 照願板啦好 這剛剛有說任東益都有宣讀了齁 那大家意見是照願板來通過好 那第15條"},{"start":11572.029,"end":11590.917,"text":"第15條是有關剛才台電的電力供應業它的這些經營要特定的電力供應業它如果要成立的時候它相關的程序 把令程序那另外也就是說至於現在已經在經營的未來必須在一年內取得相關的執照"},{"start":11592.927,"end":11617.544,"text":"好那這條文建議照院版通過沒有意見好那本條也是照院版的條文通過來第19條請能源局說明是另外第19條是剛才的所謂的電力供應業他有停歇業的規定那也比照其他相關的電業來一起處理建議照院版通過好沒有其他意見的話照院版通過第24條請能源局說明"},{"start":11621.694,"end":11645.515,"text":"這個就是配合剛才的特定電力業 那我們增加同意備案因為它有一個同意備案的程序 我們把它納入程序好 建議照院板通過好 那也是照院板通過那接下來處理第三條35條也是對新設的特定電力工業 它有一些災害緊急通報的系統那我們也把它納入原來的通報系統好 建議照院板通過好 照院板通過第47條"},{"start":11648.121,"end":11663.95,"text":"第47條就是說這些公用受電業或是剛才的特定供應業這些它也要依照我們電業目前既有的機制定期的提供資料那麼跟申報那它非有特殊的原因是不能夠進行停業的好 建議照預滿通過"},{"start":11665.87,"end":11689.256,"text":"好47條有修正動議不過大家討論如果同意的話我們還是照院板通過好那47條就照院板來處理第74條74條就是剛才新加入的行業他的罰則他配套的罰則我們也在74條裡面把它訂定出來好法則的部份好那也照院板通過來接下來處理第75條75條在哪裡"},{"start":11697.107,"end":11721.949,"text":"75條75條就是說未來我們這個電業他雖然維持綜合電業但是他還是要有分別的會計制度而且他不能夠做交叉補貼以維持電力市場的公平競爭好那這一條也照院版通過那現在有行政院的新增第78條之一那這也請原局說明"},{"start":11723.973,"end":11748.626,"text":"這個是我們未來要建立這個電易交易平台那麼這個電易交易平台他必須要能夠公正的操作那如果沒有公正的操作那我們會出以罰款的罰則好那這一條新增條文大家有什麼意見好沒有其他意見的話我們照院板通過好那接下來處理第80條"},{"start":11752.439,"end":11769.517,"text":"80條是新增一個特定供應業因為為剛才報告這是一個新增的行業所以我們特別在81條也把原來80條這部分也把它加進來就是除了發電業配電業我們增加一個特定電力供應業"},{"start":11771.288,"end":11788.024,"text":"好 各位委員有什麼意見好 一樣照院版通過這個邱志偉委員的版本是跟院版是一樣好 兩位的好 那就照這個行政院跟邱志偉委員版本第六條的部分"},{"start":11789.704,"end":11809.418,"text":"好 這個委員的版本跟院版的意旨是一樣意旨一樣啦 不過文字上有不一樣所以我們還是照院版那林黛華委員跟邱盈盈委員的意旨是一樣的但是可能在一些用字用語有不懂對啊"},{"start":11811.172,"end":11830.046,"text":"意思一樣啦 但是文字還是有不一樣的地方邱志偉委員的文字跟行政院版是一樣的建議主席啊 如果文字一樣就照著委員跟院版的通過啦文字一樣的不一樣的就照院版好不好文字有不同就照院版那各位委員有其他意見嗎沒有來戴華"},{"start":11831.277,"end":11852.276,"text":"做一個附帶決議就是我今天質詢的部分我也謝謝部長願意正面回應針對每一個在生人員的電廠它都是公權力的賦予所以他們在相關的資料的收集跟電力發電的效益"},{"start":11853.036,"end":11874.766,"text":"這件事情是要長期定期 正是每日每時透過AI的系統去做會診因為它需要做到跨部會 因為像日照 風向 地震 颱風這可能可以來自環境部 但是對於電力當中的影響會是你們"},{"start":11876.407,"end":11882.011,"text":"那甚至我也講到說地方政府他在漁業對於原生產業的衝擊譬如說我做漁電共生我做這個農電共生那到底對我農業的產地的攻擊的衝擊是什麼那其實這是要做追蹤的"},{"start":11892.578,"end":11913.347,"text":"才有利於你在整個人員政策當中的五年十年當中你可以做一些調整甚至未來在20年25年這個場域包括你未來還會有地熱喔不是有風電離岸還有你的地熱這都是國家公權力裡面去處理的那這個他們的一個這樣的一個跟電力跟這個我們相關的氣候還有天災等的"},{"start":11917.969,"end":11942.401,"text":"一個關係還有包括跟地方政府他為什麼有些農地甚至私人的農地我們不講私人我們就講公有的部分我怎麼的去回饋給你們這些資料包括養殖業的部分我對於原生產地的部分農業土地的衝擊對於這個漁業漁電共生的部分我怎麼的他有哪些環境的衝擊可以回饋給你們"},{"start":11943.922,"end":11968.97,"text":"那我再講一個小細節的比例如果我這樣的一個光電板我只要一片樹葉蓋在一片的光電板我可能能量在這整個系統的電力我就少了20%那我會牽扯到什麼我清潔的頻率以後我是要規格化以後我的這個綠電的當中我光是這樣的作業我如何只要沒有那一片葉子弄下去我的發電百分百一片葉子下去可能就"},{"start":11969.983,"end":11986.016,"text":"就只剩下20%那所以這個東西要不要去建立我的一個這個操作清潔的模式包括給每個電廠的維護所以這個部分我是希望做一個附帶決議那會講這個東西未來我的電力公司"},{"start":11987.199,"end":12008.086,"text":"我要不要也納入我的這個規劃裡面因為你們連非公用的電力你們台電都要求台電變成一個整合平台了那對這樣的一個資料的中心的彙整我是不是要賦予不管是你經濟部能源連署他也應該要法制化"},{"start":12008.926,"end":12023.015,"text":"這樣子也保障你們啊 因為你才有整合的權利啊他們要義務提供給你這個訊息而且你要怎麼的產出這個有價值的數據所以我這個部分能夠希望用文字以附帶決議請人員署這邊提供我剛才講的一個文字這個能夠提供作為今天的附帶決議那評估作為 因為我今天也講示範"},{"start":12031.841,"end":12059.016,"text":"事辦就是說由台電先行事辦它有光電廠還有離岸風廠甚至未來的地熱也是會是它要去做相關電力的一個匱電那這當中你怎麼讓它有一個數據的整合之後在你督導之下有一個數據整合之後那能夠來回饋我們未來的相關能源政策以因應未來20年或25年的到期之後你要做什麼樣的"},{"start":12059.816,"end":12077.866,"text":"一個重新的一個發包類似這樣子那做成請經濟部知情主席能夠採視一下讓人員署做成一個文字把我剛才的一個意旨做成附帶決議那至於未來要不要評估在我們事辦之後未來評估是納入定業法裡面去處理謝謝"},{"start":12080.322,"end":12098.481,"text":"那我想針對這個戴華委員他們希望說你們要把一些發電的背景因素你們要做一個研究那我想這個是不是你們是不是朝你一下換文字怎樣那我們還是先回到我們這個處理條文本身來我們先剛剛都已經協商完畢了我們請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":12103.715,"end":12129.236,"text":"定義法不貫條件修正條案先讀協商結論第二條照行政院提案通過第六條照行政院提案通過第十一條照行政院提案通過第十五條照行政院提案通過第十九條照行政院提案通過第十四條照行政院提案通過第三十五條照行政院提案通過第四十七條照行政院提案通過第七十四條照行政院提案通過"},{"start":12130.477,"end":12154.074,"text":"第75條 照行政院提案通過增訂第78條之一 照行政院提案通過第80條 照行政院提案通過 宣布完畢好 請問各位同仁照剛剛宣讀之協商結論通過 請問有無異議沒有好 沒有異議通過那我們附帶決議是不是寫一下好 那大家先"},{"start":12181.944,"end":12184.344,"text":"我七年來在經紀人會第一次這麼順利"},{"start":12195.479,"end":12199.405,"text":"蔬菜白肉鍋 台店的招待生菜白肉鍋"},{"start":12212.675,"end":12220.44,"text":"好啊好啊 好啊好啊 好啊好啊 好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊"},{"start":12235.408,"end":12238.311,"text":"下禮拜一可能,下禮拜一可能可以有"},{"start":12247.5,"end":12257.662,"text":"那個金銀會所有各公所的金銀保祕跟我們那些議員他們會設攤怎麼樣處理一下3月29日就已經有三上了他們說我們的帳篷過去放還是怎麼樣跟我們說的議員聯絡一下放的水怎麼弄"},{"start":12291.799,"end":12314.388,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":12325.607,"end":12334.418,"text":"主席再宣告一下因為我們現在時間快要接近12點所以我們中午不休息延長開會時間但是不會延長太久大家放心"},{"start":12368.2,"end":12370.921,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":12383.769,"end":12384.931,"text":"好了嗎?等一下"},{"start":12423.399,"end":12426.041,"text":"可以在電視上呈現可以嗎這樣可以嗎"},{"start":12452.456,"end":12464.023,"text":"放麥玻璃"},{"start":12475.52,"end":12487.911,"text":"命中兩個小時前強命中現在最早的是兩個小時前新聞"},{"start":12503.507,"end":12511.732,"text":"好 好 好啊還需要簽嗎要簽的 要 要 要不然你這樣硬一張 大家簽不就好了啊對 硬一張不會只是給委員看 想看而已好 謝謝"},{"start":12545.908,"end":12549.412,"text":"好那我們現在附帶決議有一件請宣讀附帶決議"},{"start":12553.871,"end":12580.457,"text":"委員蔡宇等所提附帶決議為掌握再生能源發電效益請能源署評估建立再生能源場域各級數據監理機制並規劃台電場域先行事辦以利後續推動要求致民營電廠宣讀完畢請問各位同仁對於委員所提附帶決議有異議好沒有異議的話就通過那我們只通過"},{"start":12581.698,"end":12595.717,"text":"好那我們討論事項所列電業法部分條文第6條及第74條條文修正草案並按審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問需不需要交由黨團協商"},{"start":12597.671,"end":12611.841,"text":"好 那不需交黨團協商那院會討論時由本席負責說明通過之條文法制相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本日議程處理完略謝謝大家 現在散會"},{"start":12684.986,"end":12685.609,"text":"谢谢观看"}]}},{"id":"159590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0ec07ec571d4f79bd71db0abd93ed56f112e500bd5a8d385b0b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:06:48 - 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你又要把現金發放常態化"},{"start":164.185,"end":167.012,"text":"這不整個中央財政都掏空了嗎變成是三搶分啊組長 你擔不擔心啊"},{"start":171.539,"end":197.859,"text":"事實上如果說財化法修正要減少3753這個部分我們可能在115年周邊的時候就會有發生困難因為我們有一些原來的業務應該要移撥給地方的部分沒有移撥而且移撥還要依照法律要修正法律才可以移撥所以這個後遺症不是今年而已還有明年甚至大後年延續下去"},{"start":198.8,"end":219.571,"text":"就是如同你剛剛你之前回答本席的是說在院會當中所有的新興預算都不能處理嘛對不對新興預算不能處理是預算還沒有通過啦那是總預算那現在總預算已經公佈了總預算可以公佈那開始進行了對現在目前就是前瞻前瞻還沒有通過前瞻還沒有通過那如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":222.953,"end":238.626,"text":"那有一些重大的這個超過一百億的部分的新興預算可以處理就如同本席所整理的這些那哪一些跟賴清德總統裡頭政見比較優先相關的新興計畫是不是應該優先處理那個主席長你有沒有去整理過"},{"start":240.416,"end":263.483,"text":"這個部分目前其實我們是可以有三棟的一個部分大部分就是說譬如說像那個節能電器補助這個比較攸關民生的那我們還正新要50億元的這個部分還有那個健康台灣60億這個部分會先實行護理人力整變的這個部分要是有這幾個這都會先實行"},{"start":270.205,"end":289.273,"text":"這個應該如果說預算有通過就可以執行那就是說有一些先進預算可以開始進行嘛那一些地方建設的部分以台南的先進運輸來說的話有沒有可能爭取得到第一期的南線的部分周遭預算的部分有沒有其他的這個方式可不可以進行"},{"start":290.877,"end":306.513,"text":"這個部分是進行但是115年以後可能會影響到但是至少先進行嘛好不好可以弄的話今年先弄嘛不然的話台南這麼缺對不對捷運到現在六都當中就只有台南沒有捷運可不可以新型處理一下"},{"start":307.836,"end":321.92,"text":"是可以 已經可以進行但是問題就是1155年可能會受到你不用再重複你先有的先有先求有啦再求多啦好不好請主席長費心一下啦那另外一部分呢其實今天會產生這個問題還是會回到一個問題啦也就是說這有關於這個預算這個"},{"start":328.607,"end":348.644,"text":"編列的部分的失準我統計這五年當中失準的幅度一個是0.84一個是2.8相差蠻大主要是跟GDP的落差蠻多的這個落差的這種情況底下主要還是要放在這個稅計剩餘的部分嘛對不對除了法定的還債的部分是不是"},{"start":349.124,"end":370.129,"text":"一般如果今年有那個他收入超過預算數那這個部分他本來要舉債的部分他就優先會減少就不去舉債第二個再來就是所謂的債務還本他就會還本數或者會增加還本那再來就是會變成如果有特別預算的可以抵調"},{"start":371.309,"end":380.077,"text":"因為我們一般特別醫生都是取債就你現在講的數字來跟你核對一下今年像中央超徵的這個3757億嘛對不對債務還本208億嘛是不是減少取債的部分是157億嘛對不對對157億嘛所以總共實際上剩下是1978億嘛對不對"},{"start":391.172,"end":418.14,"text":"大概剩下一千不到兩千啊剩下一千六百多你更少 你的估計更少一千六百多所以說也不夠一人一萬啊對不對而且呢 去年喔超徵所謂全國五千多億的情況底下也不過是16%而已所以也不到今天的法案的內容20%嘛所以說實際上你還完之後也不到三千億嘛不過你是用定額跟定率其實都蠻困難的嘛是不是"},{"start":418.94,"end":443.392,"text":"所以一般大概一千六百多億他要經過審計部審定以後七月以後才會加入到稅計剩餘還要編列預算才可以對還要用編列預算到稅計剩餘嘛那稅計剩餘來說之前我們稅計剩餘高達七千零百四十四億嘛一一二年底的時候到去年的時候剩下一百五十八億嘛那我想請教你稅計剩餘到底多少才合理啊"},{"start":446.406,"end":466.745,"text":"這個也不是說多少才合理稅計剩餘主要就是看當年度一個稅入稅出執行的情形如果剩餘再做累積啦我們並不會預估說一個哪一個多少還是看累積就是保留一個彈性啦比較好作用嘛你至少可以預估一下那如何避免未來啊"},{"start":467.645,"end":482.973,"text":"這個錯估的現象的出現齁我看你們報告當中所寫的其實主要是銀索稅、重索稅還有包括證交稅這三個大幅成長的結果嘛以至於錯估嘛這個部分是不是要請財政部來說對財政部好那我們請那個次長來次長請次長請"},{"start":496.391,"end":513.85,"text":"主要你們寫的原因是營業稅、眾所稅還有證交稅大幅成長而錯估嘛對不對最主要是營所稅跟這個證交稅這個成長的福利那營所稅造成證交稅增加是因為股利發放多所以會造成這個眾所稅增加證交稅大幅成長嘛是不是"},{"start":515.272,"end":532.049,"text":"證交稅之所以大幅成長主要是高科技產業嘛對不對對因為他權值比較重嘛對所以是不是你們將來在估計這些收入面的部分稅收的部分要考慮的不是整體的景氣分析而已還要包括一個特定產業的分析啊"},{"start":532.449,"end":554.072,"text":"是委員的意見非常好所以我們這一部分我們會加強來做好相關的預算的預測所以我們也成立這個相關的估測小組而且為外研究那另外我們也透過AI來處理希望將來的預測能夠這個時候什麼時候會預估會上路你這麼多改革的方法什麼時候目前都已經上路了"},{"start":554.312,"end":583.554,"text":"都已經上路那什麼時候以後就可以避免了嗎希望115年我們115年能夠有更就是更精準更精準的避免類似這些數字的產生以至於又發現金的口號出現我跟委員報告就是但是雖然是這樣但是因為我們編預算的時候還有很多的變數因為我們從編預算到實行的時候我知道那個當然就不在你掌握之內你事先能掌握超出債券的先行處理嘛"},{"start":583.954,"end":605.121,"text":"至少不要變有變數嘛 可不可以 次長對 你們從一百一十五年避免類似形式的產生的努力跟目標嘛好不好不要老是出現這種問題 連續四年了咧 好不好最後我再問一下主席長 主席長我還是讓你看一下 零四零三的部分當初行政院復原重建的計畫高達兩百八十五億光光復興的時候高達十六億之多啦"},{"start":607.882,"end":631.551,"text":"然後同樣的這一個政災的租金補貼的部分當初用政災基金會那現在是用這一個住宅基金啦那相對而言0102的時候就少了非常的多啦主委長在這個部分你有沒有什麼辦法可以為台南這個災情來多做一些努力雙重建然後然後復原能夠復興報告委員這個部分像那個我們農業方面有一關那個那個叫做那個"},{"start":636.653,"end":661.95,"text":"沒關係啦 主席坐一下啦你講那麼久我以前也沒有這樣子今天要控制一下有需要的經費這個部分台南市也有提出來申請我們也全力在協助說這個部分有相關的一個有教育部的預算有農業部的預算有文化部的預算有課委會的預算等等這些你應該都優先處理才對啦是是是這沒有道理在公共建設當初有所延誤啦"},{"start":662.29,"end":672.49,"text":"所以我們很希望接下來行政院長下去的時候能夠帶實質的承諾下去然後在民間的部分的復興會員能夠加快腳步好不好這個部分他們會試劇去評估啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時13分）主席，有請主計長。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：主計長請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主計長好。延續剛剛賴委員的議題，我在總質詢也問過，到底追加預算可不可行？同一項目刪除掉顯然沒有道理再追加預算，你剛剛好像要表示這個意見嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：關於總預算被刪減掉的部分，因為追加預算有條件，它第一個……"],["郭委員國文：就不符嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：有部分是不符合。"],["郭委員國文：對，如果再追加的話，那不是代表立法院刪錯了嗎？另外一個部分，站在一個可以解決問題的出發點來說，現在應該先去處理那些凍結的部分，委員會可以解凍的有多少、需要院會來解凍的有多少，主計長，這個部分可能要先行去準備。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：如果在野黨有體會到現在的預算已經變成窒礙難行，想要透過追加預算或第二預備金來處理的話，這也不是壞事，對國家不是壞事，他們願意承認錯誤、過度刪減，但是現實上可處理的應該先進行解凍嘛，主計長？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是要解凍，因為這部分有1,380億，但是解凍有的有條件。"],["郭委員國文：對，不同條件。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那個條件就是，譬如說凍結70%，它要用完30%才可以來……"],["郭委員國文：我知道！我只是建議你去調整，那個其實很困難……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個困難點……"],["郭委員國文：老實講，連解凍的方式都很窒礙難行。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：現在要發現金不又是另一種矛盾的現象嗎，對不對？所以我覺得現階段都是站在過度刪減預算之後想要解套的心理狀況，而提出今天的這一個法案，基本上這不是所謂的還稅於民，這是在發現金救罷免，不可諱言的，這幾位提案人、當事人基本上都是被罷免的對象，我覺得這個問題點在於，我們公聽會的時候、在審查的時候居然沒有一個學者願意背書，更何況連民眾黨所找來的學者也反對。","主計長，你不覺得憂心嗎？如果知道之前的刪減是錯誤的、凍結是錯誤的，你看刪減的部分高達多少？我自己夯不啷噹計算是3,683，我不曉得對不對，這是第一；第二個，財劃法的部分是3,753，這是把中央拿掉的錢；第三個，你又要把現金發放常態化，這不是整個中央財政都掏空了嗎，變成是「刪、搶、分」，主計長，你擔不擔心？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，關於財劃法修正要減少3,753這個部分，我們可能在115年籌編的時候就會發生困難。"],["郭委員國文：對！"],["陳主計長淑姿：為什麼？因為我們有一些原來的業務應該要移撥給地方的部分沒有移撥，而且移撥還要修正法律才可以移撥。"],["郭委員國文：所以這個後遺症不是今年而已，還有明年，甚至大後年也延續下去，就如同你之前回答本席的，在院會當中所有的新興預算都不能處理，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：新興預算不能處理是預算還沒有通過，那是總預算，那現在總預算已經公布了，所以現在……"],["郭委員國文：總預算可以公布，那開始進行了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，目前就是前瞻還沒有通過，前瞻的部分沒有通過就不能執行。"],["郭委員國文：如果是這樣子的話，有一些重大、超過100億部分的新興預算可以處理，就如同本席所整理的這些，那麼哪一些跟賴清德總統政見比較優先相關的新興計畫應該優先處理，主計長你有沒有去整理過這個部分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前有刪、凍的部分，譬如像節能電器補助這個比較攸關民生的、癌症新藥50億元的部分，還有健康臺灣60億這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：會先施行？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有護理人力整備這個部分，主要是有這幾個。"],["郭委員國文：這都會先執行？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個如果預算有通過就可以執行。"],["郭委員國文：所以有一些新興預算可以開始進行嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是！"],["郭委員國文：一些地方建設的部分，以臺南的先進運輸來說，有沒有可能爭取得到？第一期藍線預算的部分有沒有其他的方式可以進行？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分是進行，但是115年以後可能會影響到……"],["郭委員國文：但是至少先進行，好不好？可以弄的話今年先弄嘛，不然的話臺南市這麼缺，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是臺南有……"],["郭委員國文：到現在六都當中就只有臺南沒有捷運，可不可以先行處理一下？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經可以進行，但問題就是115年可能會受到影響。"],["郭委員國文：沒關係，你不用再重複，你有的先有，先求有、再求多，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["郭委員國文：請主計長費心一下。","另外一部分，其實今天會產生這個問題的原因，還是會回到是一個問題，有關於預算編列的失準，我統計這5年當中，失準的幅度一個是0.84、一個是2.8，相差蠻大，主要是跟GDP落差蠻多的，在這個落差的情況底下，主要還是要放在歲計賸餘的部分，對不對？除了法定還債的部分，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般來說，如果今年收入超過預算數，那本來要舉債的部分就會優先減少，就不去舉債；第二個，就是所謂的債務還本，就會有還本數或者會增加還本；再來就會變成，如果有特別預算的可以抵掉……因為我們一般特別預算都是舉債。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，就你現在講的數字我跟你核對一下，今年中央超徵3,757億，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：債務還本208億，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，那是新增……"],["郭委員國文：減少舉債的部分是157億，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["郭委員國文：所以實際上總共剩下1,978億，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概剩下……我估算的……"],["郭委員國文：不到2,000啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：剩下一千六百多億。"],["郭委員國文：你的估計更少，剩下一千六百多億，所以也不夠一人1萬啊，對不對？而且去年全國超徵五千多億的情況底下也不過是16%而已，也不到今天法案內容所規定的20%嘛！所以實際上你還完之後也不到3,000億嘛，不論是用定額或定率其實都滿困難的嘛，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這一千六百多億要經過審計部審定以後、7月以後才會加入到累計賸餘，還要編列預算才可以……"],["郭委員國文：對，還要編列預算到歲計賸餘嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：以歲計賸餘來說，之前在112年底的時候，我們累計的歲計賸餘高達7,044億，到去年的時候剩下158億嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：我想請教你，歲計賸餘到底多少才合理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個也不是說多少才合理，歲計賸餘主要就是看當年度歲入歲出的執行情形，如果賸餘再做累積啦，我們並不會預估要多少才合理。"],["郭委員國文：還是看累積？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：就是保留一個彈性啦，比較好作用。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對、對、對，要有彈性。"],["郭委員國文：你至少可以預估一下，如何避免未來一個錯估現象的出現，我看你們報告當中所寫的，其實主要是營所稅、綜所稅及證交稅這三個大幅成長的結果，以致於錯估嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分是不是請財政部來說明比較清楚？"],["郭委員國文：對，那我們請財政部次長。"],["主席：來，次長請。"],["郭委員國文：阮次長，依據你們所寫的，是營業稅、綜所稅及證交稅大幅成長而錯估嘛，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，最主要是營所稅跟證交稅成長的幅度增加。"],["郭委員國文：營所稅造成證交稅增加是因為股利發放多，所以會造成綜所稅增加，證交稅大幅成長嘛，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：證交稅之所以大幅成長主要是在高科技產業嘛，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：因為它的權值比較重嘛！所以是不是你們將來在估計這些收入面的稅收部分，要考慮的不是整體的景氣分析而已，還要包括特定產業的分析啊！"],["阮次長清華：是，委員的意見非常好，對於這個部分我們也會加強來做好相關預算的預測，所以我們也成立相關的估測小組，而且委外研究。另外，我們也透過AI來處理，希望將來的預測能夠更加精準。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候會上路？你這麼多改革的方法，什麼時候會上路？"],["阮次長清華：目前都已經上路了。"],["郭委員國文：都已經上路？那以後就可以避免了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：希望我們115年能夠有更……"],["郭委員國文：更精準？"],["阮次長清華：更精準的一個預測。"],["郭委員國文：避免類似這些數字的產生，以致於又有發現金的口號出現。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，雖然是這樣，但是我們編預算之後還有很多的變數，因為我們從編預算到執行的時候大概都有一段時間……"],["郭委員國文：我知道！那個當然就不在你掌握之內，你事先能掌握、操之在己的部分先行處理嘛，至少不要有變數嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，我們能掌握的……"],["郭委員國文：可不可以，次長？"],["阮次長清華：是，我們儘量來處理。"],["郭委員國文：對，你們從115年開始要避免類似情事產生，去努力跟達成目標，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：是，我們來努力。"],["郭委員國文：不要老是出現這種問題，連續4年了耶，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：最後，我再問一下主計長。主計長，我還是讓你看一下0403的部分，當初行政院的復原重建計畫加總起來高達285億，農業及觀光旅遊振興的部分約編列16億之多，至於震災的租金補貼部分，當初的來源是賑災基金會，現在這次則是住宅基金，相對而言，0121的時候就少了非常多啦。主計長，在這個部分，你有沒有什麼辦法可以為臺南的災情來多做一些努力，希望能夠重建、能夠復原、能夠復興？"],["主席：請簡單答復。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這個部分，像在農業方面有一個叫做……"],["郭委員國文：沒關係啦，主席，坐一下啦！剛剛你講那麼久，我今天也沒有這樣子啊！"],["主席：今天要控制一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：龍眼乾的窯所需要的經費部分，臺南市也有提出申請，我們也全力在協助，這個部分由相關的……"],["郭委員國文：有教育部的預算、有農業部的預算、有文化部的預算、有客委會的預算等等，這些你應該都優先處理才對啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是、是，我們盡力來全力協助。"],["郭委員國文：沒有道理在公共建設當中有所延誤啦！所以我們很希望接下來行政院長下去的時候，能夠帶實質的承諾下去，然後在民間部分的復興也能夠加快腳步，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分他們會實際去評估啦，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好，請主計長費心，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員的質詢。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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幾個先進我們柯總統在這裡"},{"start":26.516,"end":29.422,"text":"我就先請我們的主計長好不好 陳主計長好 主計長 陳主計長來"},{"start":35.949,"end":59.074,"text":"這剛才老柯好不容易今天大駕光臨說買票那你在罵蔡英文蔡英文上一次就發六千塊你在罵蔡英文現在越來越大罵蔡英文還有剛才吳秉瑞委員不斷地強調一直在講我所以我一定要回一下這裡面不要忘了他裡面都講錯"},{"start":66.194,"end":81.181,"text":"今天卓榮特院長提總預算的預算案是有詢答的不是直接表決 真言說真話不要這樣子講喔 不要只是惡鬥而已喔"},{"start":83.942,"end":85.203,"text":"我請教主計總署的主計長"},{"start":107.948,"end":112.99,"text":"3月21號 電價審議委員會 破天荒啦家庭用戶跟小店家11%產業5% 平均是6% 央行總裁說本來是8%啦我請問你 請問你啦 組織組織有派人去嗎"},{"start":130.484,"end":141.575,"text":"這個電駕審議委員會有沒有派人去?有沒有?時間快了,我出局了你不知道喔?沒有確定喔?確定喔?這時間暫停一下啦,都在錄你有去嗎?"},{"start":150.154,"end":161.299,"text":"有派我們有的承辦員去他們有派人啊這足距種族怎麼會沒有派人去啊為什麼長小戶放大戶呢這個東西啊大家都知道這個結果一查出來就是司馬懿啊講的啦這個司馬昭智興啊 路人皆知啊"},{"start":176.036,"end":197.094,"text":"是什麼 為了大罷免 天才火啊 你看 普羅大眾 把你氣成這樣 帳要算在野黨的啦就是這樣而已 就這樣子而已 你也不要講他不要講我 因為這個審議委員會不是你決定的 你也沒有去啊 你給我去"},{"start":198.255,"end":202.656,"text":"我跟委員 你也沒去我沒去 但是我要跟委員說這是會前會而來沒有去不要講話沒有去就不要講話這個很清楚就是行政院他的遙控"},{"start":218.623,"end":241.937,"text":"因為我們不給他補貼一千億喔所以呢我就張你們架讓你們去找南北的立委來算帳再說 主席長我們過去補貼台電三千億啊你仔細聽啊 你不要看那個仔細聽我講補了三千億 四年漲五次啊"},{"start":243.829,"end":268.226,"text":"我公開質詢郭志輝我說我給你一千億是不是你就不漲價他不承諾啊 照漲啊給了三千億給了三千億四年漲五次最近漲的是去年十月到現在不到一年 又要漲又要漲 更加凸顯我們今天案子的重要性"},{"start":269.878,"end":288.885,"text":"既然你都一直要欺負老百姓那個補1000億也是老百姓的錢那不是天上掉下來也不是大風刮來的是我們的納稅的錢補台電錯誤的人員政策核電一度1.4塊錢不用要用4塊錢、5塊錢、6塊錢的光電、風電沒有認真cost down"},{"start":297.745,"end":311.951,"text":"四年漲五次這幾年我們給了三千億每年漲啊這是一個漲價內閣啊所以我們主席講貪污內閣主席講得很接近了"},{"start":314.245,"end":328.041,"text":"這個 更加凸顯普發現金的重要老百姓不要人老 又企業企到這樣以前買一個 下次買半個所以普發現金給大家交電費就是這樣而已"},{"start":330.294,"end":354.931,"text":"你現在可以講一下 講差不多三十秒 我跟委員報告我們主要是在彌補他對民生電價他以前年度他沒有漲價的這一個部分那這一個部分估計起來也將近漲價不是你漲的啊你一直維持民生電價的部分沒有漲那這一個部分漲到十一趴 要漲十一趴他是後來漲三次 但是前面的部分"},{"start":356.772,"end":379.644,"text":"他總共有2800億左右的一個部分他都沒有彌平所以後來我們編追加再追加為什麼他不用核電一度童子田都說我們一年用3000億度電如果通通改成核電就省3000億當然不可能通通要核電差不多學者都說20%20%就是600億度電一度省一塊錢不只一塊錢喔"},{"start":385.347,"end":401.582,"text":"一度省3塊錢就1000多億就出來了啊我根本不需要補貼啊改成核電就有了啊你現在1.4那你風電、光電4塊錢以上我一度差3塊錢啊我就1000多億就有了啊"},{"start":402.944,"end":423.59,"text":"對不對 現在修法 蔡英文給你弄好了美國壓力來了 美國爸爸還說叫我們用核電為什麼不順勢去走下去就都改觀 不要補一千億 也不要漲價我們立法院還做了決議 所以不可以漲價咧你們照常啊"},{"start":425.43,"end":453.129,"text":"市民力如霧啊就這樣啊這是你都沒有回答啦但是我是跟你講清楚我是跟你講清楚你要聽進去你告訴主委院長這個代表普發現金來繳電費太重要了真的老百姓不要懶惰啦我們再看啊主席人數主席長來我們現在總預算開始又沒有新的 新公佈的總預算"},{"start":455.417,"end":472.721,"text":"是有公告了是不是開始可以使用了對 已經開始用了那軍公教條新是不是開始調了軍公教條新是可以調了可以調了喔 確定喔這是你自己講的喔今年的預算比去年多了1368億"},{"start":475.996,"end":503.138,"text":"結果我們的院長 大院長還說總預算之外還是多了一千多億內政部多四百億 國防部多四百億國防部前幾天 顧立雄接受馬文君的質詢他說 海昆豪一毛錢都沒有刪對不對 還有呢 教育部多了三百億外務部多了三百零六億 這都你的數字啊"},{"start":504.201,"end":510.59,"text":"怎麼會說沒有錢呢怎麼會衛生紙沒有呢怎麼說廁所裡面的衛生紙給你炸呢怎麼會這樣子呢你自己講的陳組計長"},{"start":519.727,"end":547.264,"text":"你看 你就被我們的總委員長打臉來 你講是 因為我們增加了都是公共建設包括勞健保但是減的他都減在特定的項目譬如說減業務譬如說整個集團減到為0我們現在就來講一個東西什麼補救 你總是要有個補救對不對可以不可以追加給女生可以不可以追加給女生"},{"start":547.904,"end":567.154,"text":"可以追加檢預算 但是時間來不及因為追加檢預算的話 如果通過的時候我們現在縱使3月要公佈以後才可以開始籌編公佈了 已經公佈了公佈開始籌編 但是要有作業的時間那送到貴會來審查 通過的時候就將近6月將近6月沒關係 開業一位"},{"start":569.435,"end":588.601,"text":"我們研會也要幫你審啊沒有問題啊但是這段時間沒有錢支出啊這段時間有的主要都沒有錢捏有的撿到領的他完全隨時會付不出來除了監察院以外啦其他沒有啦還有還有黨產會啊這些都有撿到領的那你就撿到領就用第二倍金可以不"},{"start":589.381,"end":603.988,"text":"第二億北京還要報立法院所以我問你喔因為我時間快到了齁我今天在不太有時間第一個可以用追加減預算可以用第二億北京來解決你講的問題對吧"},{"start":606.409,"end":629.506,"text":"但是跟委員報告有追加減預算有追加減預算的條件第二預備金可以嗎第二預備金只能針對部分的執行有困難的部分執行有困難已經不講了嗎這個部分也必須要報到院裡面來讓院裡面報我請問那個中選會那個他現在都行政院的第二預備金那個可以嗎對不對"},{"start":632.261,"end":657.568,"text":"啊 錯誤的戰爭是比貪汙一百倍可怕我剛剛是這樣子你時間怎麼這麼快 你給我說一下齁那個 那個 主席長啊是有時候就跟你啊 好好的跟你講是我就問你第二一倍均PLUS追加減預算是不是可以解你的問題 是不是呃 呃可以不可以可以不可以 你回答我 可以不可以"},{"start":658.669,"end":677.748,"text":"因為我們第二預備金以目前來講的話如果被刪減的那個部分要辦追加那個部分沒有辦法為什麼沒有辦法一切歸零啊就可以開始追加減了怎麼不可以呢"},{"start":679.311,"end":686.638,"text":"不是 歸零的追加減他會來不及可以啦請那個沈記長來一下沈記長來來來沈記長陳沈記長把事情釐清來 謝謝在國會殿堂要講真話喔沈記長你們這位副主記長可以不可以用"},{"start":705.063,"end":730.09,"text":"第二位北京來處理第二位北京 凍住第二位北京有四個條件好啦 現在我時間到不要講條件了齁我現在告訴你齁 主席長我是很失望你今天給我這樣答案啦因為你來找我的時候你就講兩個追加錢預算PLUS PLUS齁特別就是第二位北京我都跟你說"},{"start":731.922,"end":749.53,"text":"我絕對歡迎我都非常正面的回應結果今天來這裡 怎麼那麼矜持矜持 我覺得我對你的時候 沒想到我以前對你很尊敬來 我們讓神經長講一句話你對於現在人家講的人家講的那個陽光啊 兩千"},{"start":751.155,"end":776.47,"text":"你的鄰居有問題 你怎麼處理 陽廣 兩千筆的 這怎麼處理因為陽廣是財團法人 財團法人法 這個屬於文化部督導文化部要負責監督 你要不要查文化部已經移送檢調了 你可不可以查任何動用國家主義人 我都可以查所以 請問你什麼時候要去查"},{"start":777.21,"end":799.075,"text":"因為這個已經文化部委託會計書查過了但是你還是可以查啊我們會做一些了解我要求你去查可以嗎我們會 你有要求的話我們會進行了解好 什麼時候開始我們一個月你可以嗎因為我們整個一個月可以嗎一個月可以嗎"},{"start":805.825,"end":806.246,"text":"應該可以好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時59分）謝謝主席及各位先進。柯總召來這裡……算了。我就先請陳主計長，好不好？"],["主席：好，陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：老柯好不容易今天大駕光臨，說買票，你在罵蔡英文喔！蔡英文上一次就發6,000塊，你在罵蔡英文喔！現在越來越大，罵蔡英文喔！還有剛才吳秉叡委員不斷地強調，一直在講我，所以我一定要回應一下，他裡面都講錯，今天卓榮泰院長提總預算的預算案是有詢答的，不是直接表決，不要亂講，睜眼說瞎話！不要這樣子講，不要只是惡鬥而已！"],["柯委員建銘：違法啦！"],["賴委員士葆：違法、違憲都是你在說的，違老柯啦，老柯想當院長，一直來這裡亂，我講話，你安靜，你安靜，老柯安靜。"],["柯委員建銘：好啦……"],["賴委員士葆：zip！zip！你知不知道zip？拉鍊拉起來叫zip，老柯zip！","好，我請教主計總處的主計長，3月21號電價審議委員會破天荒，家庭用戶跟小店家是11%，產業5%，平均是6%，央行總裁說本來要漲8%。我請問你，主計總處有沒有派人去電價審議委員會？有沒有？快點，我時間馬上要到了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：你不知道喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：確定喔！確定喔！時間暫停一下。"],["主席：暫停、暫停。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有派人？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，我們有派我們的承辦員去。"],["賴委員士葆：當然有派人啊！主計總處怎麼會沒有派人去？為什麼漲小戶、放大戶呢？這個東西大家都知道，這個結果一查出來就是司馬昭之心，路人皆知，是什麼？為了大罷免添柴火啊！你看，漲普羅大眾11%，帳要算在野黨的啦，就是這樣而已。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：就這樣而已啊，你不要講話，不用講話的時候你就不要講話……"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["賴委員士葆：因為這個審議委員會不是你決定的，你也沒有去，你有去嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員說明……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有去？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我沒去，但是我要跟委員說這是會前會而已。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有去不要講話，沒有去不要講話，你有去就給你講，沒有去就不要講。這個很清楚就是行政院的陽謀，說因為我們不給他補貼1,000億，所以就漲你們價，讓你們去找藍白的立委來算帳，結果主計長，我們過去補貼台電3,000億，你仔細聽，你不要看那個啦！仔細聽我講。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：補了3,000億，4年漲5次，我公開質詢郭智輝，我說我給你1,000億，是不是你就不漲價，他不承諾，照漲。給了3,000億，4年漲5次，最近漲的是去年10月，到現在不到1年又要漲，更加凸顯我們今天案子的重要性，既然你都一直要欺負老百姓，那個補1,000億也是老百姓的錢，那不是天上掉下來，也不是大風刮來的，是拿我們納稅人的錢補台電錯誤的能源政策，核電1度1.4塊錢不用，要用4塊錢、5塊錢、6塊錢的光電、風電，沒有認真cost down，4年漲5次，這幾年我們給了3,000億，每年漲！這是一個漲價內閣。"],["主席：貪污……"],["賴委員士葆：我們主席講貪污內閣，這是主席講的，也很接近了。更加凸顯普發現金的重要，老百姓「米甕弄鐃」，又漲價漲成這樣，以前買一個便當，現在只能買半個，所以普發現金給大家繳電費，就是這樣而已。你現在可以講一下，不要超過30秒。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員報告，我們主要是在彌補它以前年度對民生電價沒有漲價的部分，這個部分估計起來也將近都是……"],["賴委員士葆：漲價不是你漲的，你替台電背黑鍋。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，它一直維持民生電價的部分沒有漲，那這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：漲了11%，要漲11%啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，它是後來漲3次，但是前面……"],["賴委員士葆：漲11%啊，怎麼沒有呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它總共有2,800億左右的部分都沒有弭平，所以後來我們編2,000追加再追加……"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼它不用核電？童子賢都說我們一年用3,000億度電，如果通通改成核電就省3,000億，當然不可能通通用核電，學者都說20%，20%就是600億度電，1度省1塊錢，不只1塊錢，1度省3塊錢，一千多億就出來了，我根本不需要補貼，改成核電就有了，現在是1.4塊，風電、光電是4塊錢以上，1度差3塊錢，一千多億就有了啊，對不對？現在修法部分在野黨幫你弄好了，美國壓力來了，美國爸爸也叫我們用核電，為什麼不順勢就這樣去做，就都解決了？不要補1,000億，也不要漲價，我們立法院還做了決議說不可以漲價，你們照漲，視民意如無物，就這樣啊。這些你都不用回答，但我是跟你說清楚，你要聽進去，你告訴卓院長，這代表普發現金來繳電費太重要了，真的，老百姓「米甕弄鐃」。","我們再往下看，主計長，我們現在新公布的總預算開始用了沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，有公告了。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是開始可以使用了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，已經開始用了。"],["賴委員士葆：那軍公教調薪是不是開始調了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：軍公教調薪是可以調了。"],["賴委員士葆：可以調了，確定喔！這是你自己講的，今年的預算比去年多了1,368億，結果我們的大院長還說總預算窒礙難行，多了一千多億耶！內政部多400億，國防部多400億，前幾天國防部部長顧立雄接受馬文君的質詢還說海鯤號1毛錢都沒有刪；還有教育部多了300億，還有衛福部多了306億，這都是你們的數字，怎麼會說沒有錢呢？怎麼會沒有衛生紙呢？怎麼說廁所裡面的衛生紙要自己帶呢？怎麼會這樣子呢？你自己講的，你看，陳主計長，你看，你就被我們卓院長打臉……"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：來，你講。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們增加的都是公共建設，包括勞健保，但是減的都減在特定的項目，譬如說減業務費……"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我們現在就來講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：譬如說有的機關減到零……"],["賴委員士葆：我們現在就來講一個東西，怎麼補救？你總是要有個補救，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為這些減到零的機關現在已經執行困難了。"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以追加減預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：可以追加減預算，但是時間來不及……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫來不及？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為追加減預算如果通過，縱使現在3月，要公布以後才可以開始籌編。"],["賴委員士葆：公布了，已經公布了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，公布開始籌備，但是要有作業的時間，要送到貴院來審查，通過的時候就將近6月……"],["賴委員士葆：將近6月沒關係，我們開院會，我們院會來幫你審，沒有問題啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是這段時間沒有錢支出啊。"],["賴委員士葆：這段時間有，怎麼會都沒有錢呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有的減到零的，它水電費完全付不出來。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦，除了監察院以外，其他沒有啦。"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有黨產會，這些都有減到零的，還有凍結……"],["賴委員士葆：那減到零就用第二預備金，你覺得可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第二預備金還要報立法院……"],["賴委員士葆：好，一樣，來了我們審啊。所以我問你，因為我時間快到了，第一個，可以用追加減預算、可以用第二預備金來解決你講的問題，對吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是跟委員報告，追加減預算有追加減預算的條件。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，第二預備金可以呀！"],["陳主計長淑姿：第二預備金只能針對執行有困難的部分來做……"],["賴委員士葆：執行有困難就是你講的啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這部分也必須要報到院裡面來，讓院裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：對，當然要立法院審查，我就請問你……"],["主席：那我請問中選會現在都用行政院的第二預備金，那個可以嗎？對不對？錯誤的政策比貪污100倍可怕，我剛剛是這樣講。"],["賴委員士葆：時間你要幫我注意一下，你讓我說一下。主計長，我現在就好好地跟你講，我就問你第二預備金plus追加減預算是不是可以解你的問題，是不是？可不可以？你回答我可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們第二預備金……"],["賴委員士葆：你回答我啦，我時間到了，你還這樣，你回答我可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以目前來講的話，如果被刪減的部分要辦追加是沒辦法。"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼沒辦法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為沒有辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：一切歸零啊，就可以開始追加減了，怎麼不可以呢？可以開始了啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，歸零的追加減會來不及。"],["賴委員士葆：可以啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以他要動預備金……"],["賴委員士葆：請審計長來一下。"],["主席：陳審計長來把事情釐清，謝謝，在國會殿堂要講真話，不能糊弄喔！"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你也做過副主計長，可以不可以用第二預備金來處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：動支第二預備金有4個條件。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，現在我時間到，不要講條件。我現在告訴你，主計長，我很失望你今天給我這樣的答案，因為是你來找我的時候就講兩個：追加減預算plus第二預備金，我都跟你說，我絕對歡迎、我都非常正面的回應，結果今天來這裡全都縮回去了！我對你很失望，枉費我以前對你很尊敬。","我們的審計長只有一句話，你對於現在人家講的央廣2,000筆領據有問題，你怎麼處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為央廣是財團法人……"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要查啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：依照財團法人法，這個屬於文化部督導……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不能查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：文化部要負責監督。"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為文化部已經移送檢調了。"],["賴委員士葆：你可以不可以查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：任何動用國家資源的我都可以查。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你什麼時候要去查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為文化部已經委託會計師查過了。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你還是可以查啊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會做一些了解。"],["賴委員士葆：我要求你去查，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：你有要求的話，我們會進行了解。"],["賴委員士葆：好，什麼時候開始？1個月的時間可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為現在在抽……因為我們整個要辦結算的審核報告，現在……"],["賴委員士葆：1個月可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該可以。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請郭國文郭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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調整我們瓦斯價 調整我們水位 你的辦法我看只有這樣而已啦不一定啦 不一定齁 我有七個垢面啦 可以來協助他們那你趕快提一個報告 不然我現在每天都心不安慰 就要整天說 哎喲 水電要去啦 我要安裝什麼"},{"start":208.346,"end":221.017,"text":"這齁,這我很怕是這樣啦我也很怕三人成虎,不一樣的事情說到變成這樣你常常不一樣的事情跟我們說到不一樣,害我們有時候要替你辯護都很困難是,謝謝委員,一定要替我辯護啦你剛剛說補錢兩千億,你們的執政黨的立委在回答問題你都微笑"},{"start":228.664,"end":248.24,"text":"在結黨回答問題裡面的第一件事你說兩千億為什麼要補貼兩千億你說要五十億歷史我教你 我不理你轉角你就五十億歷史來 國庫來補貼不要搞到兩千億啊稍微想一下 頭腦稍微轉一下就會一樣啊這樣事情就改變了是 謝謝委員"},{"start":252.603,"end":259.998,"text":"好不好 你用這個思維你跟我講嘛為了五十億的歷史 國庫保護才有 大家不會說話啦你拿兩千要出來 你知道嗎"},{"start":262.082,"end":283.96,"text":"你們現在已經國庫補貼三千億你們的電費漲價大概一千億 四千億還在拿呢啊你現在還要貼兩千億 六千億掉 難怪大家會懷疑啊我們齁 當初在COVID-19的時候 隆重是動漲影響的是六千億喔 應用的是六千億喔"},{"start":284.72,"end":300.399,"text":"我跟您說,這樣加起來,加那些太多錢,給我的政府應該有應變的技巧,不要說那些理由,替困難解決辦法,好不好?今天我回歸正題,電力修正法,"},{"start":301.48,"end":326.528,"text":"我一直那電業修正法你們來拜託我說不要啦他說是中央的政策一定要分家106年以前那個民進黨執政的時候台電那時候都是賺了大錢後就像你講的要四大分支要分開像我們國安會的留職委說要工程類地好像要做國際的公司一樣"},{"start":327.981,"end":347.153,"text":"但是啊,天有不錯的風雲,人算不如天算,你們現在起來說,啊,這樣會死的,不敢分家,不敢分割財產,不敢掠奪財產,你現在說要統一的管理,這個政策裡面,"},{"start":348.26,"end":356.063,"text":"我是覺得有諸多的問題存在其實如果賺錢 因為我很胖 準備要去賺錢現在了解了 大家心裡想要國家來負擔也有擔當的政府 不要這樣子做那你要怎麼解決這個問題"},{"start":367.367,"end":376.199,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是要修改就是說不再這個把它分割維持原來的綜合電業的這樣的一個方式您要民主該黨的所長"},{"start":382.935,"end":399.943,"text":"我每天都要喝酒,有什麼人不喝?他那個時候國際物價變動都要漲價,被罵得要死,會因為失掉掙錢,你們都不可以做,不可以去,現在要逼到台電來,人工啊,苦不堪言,沒有啦。"},{"start":404.253,"end":417.454,"text":"蔡兆偉的時候在做的話是10分鐘你不要6分鐘就站起來了我們在執行的時候你們就怕我們講多話我愛死你了邱志偉你什麼時候好朋友"},{"start":421.84,"end":440.47,"text":"第一,您高的薪酬牌,尤其吃字母的人跟我很要法,他說我們這個在野黨是真的挺何凡,我們是支持核能,幾個要件要出來,但是我要提一個問題給你看,核電最多的國家化國,美國也有,日本也有,"},{"start":441.618,"end":467.378,"text":"中國大陸也有啊你說何時人的安全站是要做到哪裡去做你們的薪資百合不能打破啦你告訴我問題絕對有辦法考慮去解決的怎麼去挖怎麼找一個卑鄙的地方補資給他們有什麼不習慣都是在找理由找藉口因為你反核一失啊這個薪資百合不容易啊掙錢不薄"},{"start":468.198,"end":482.46,"text":"你们讲的呼听口其实里面最重要的问题台湾的合同人才停了合同都被韩国抓走韩国抓走他现在已经建立他自己台湾的合同产业的人才都流失了"},{"start":484.002,"end":508.436,"text":"很嚴重那剛剛我們的召委站起來骯髒的食物狗台灣在裡面要特別特別小心尤其中小企業傳統產業會影響更大不管你到越南到哪個地方都會影響到保證要提早應用是您要做一個報告給我們好好不好這一點第一點"},{"start":512.849,"end":541.272,"text":"再來那時候張旭凱委員有問到中油跟阿拉斯加的合作你一直在講異相思異相思表示你有意願叫做異相思是哎呦保證你敢跟美國抗衡嘛450億我知道可能幾個國去參加但是最後不要去買到高的天然氣不要去投資我們只有這五這六我們低的又是高的價格"},{"start":541.952,"end":567.452,"text":"美國國債36兆,藝人的利息1兆美金,不給你騙贏了,給你抬抬了,它沒辦法解決問題,我不是反對,但是不要買到高樓,再給中油通家困擾,給台電通家困擾,臨北的介紹,變成澳洲,變成沙地那些,可以收下來,不能這樣,不能猶豫啦,你猶豫啦,"},{"start":570.954,"end":598.385,"text":"報告委員 我們從阿拉斯加買油是10天就可以到台灣是運送最短的一個距離第二個 也最安全 我們走的是太平洋這條線運送短喔 澳洲幾天 中東幾天我們賣的大陸最笨啦 你們不叫我們的國用事業車代載的高洋 代載的高洋好不好是謝謝委員知道"},{"start":599.96,"end":599.98,"text":"公說來講"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時35分）主席，首先有請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。剛剛接到一個消息說媒體在報導經濟部有開會討論電價，將要漲6%，部長說沒有，但是主計長剛剛在財委會裡面回答說，財政部有派員出席，但是這個會議並不是部長主持，會中提到平均調漲8%，有沒有這樣的事情？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我剛才也有在這裡跟大家報告，我沒有主持過這樣的會議，所以大家所談的……"],["陳委員超明：我了解，到底漲價多少？我曉得你沒有去主持。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊，所以可以證明說……"],["陳委員超明：我現在是要問你，你不要故意閃避。"],["郭部長智輝：不會啦！"],["陳委員超明：到底漲價多少？馬上要決定了。"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道。"],["陳委員超明：你不曉得？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我沒有辦法決定，審議委員還沒開會。"],["陳委員超明：你真的愈來愈會做官。我看報紙在寫說，民生用電要漲11%、企業用電要漲5%，現在又有6%、又有8%，要漲價你們也要早有決斷，你搞得人心惶惶，我跟你講，你這個部長要小心。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我都坦白跟你報告，我又沒有主持會議……"],["陳委員超明：你現在還不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：電價也不是我可以決定，電價是審查委員在決定的，所以你說我搞得人心惶惶，我不知道要怎麼辦，我說事實，你們說人心惶惶。"],["陳委員超明：部長，你是傑出的企業家，崇越以前是小小公司，現在變成一個大公司，但是你這個部長，手下有4家國營企業，第一個台電現在虧損累累，讓你白頭髮增加了很多；中油也是虧損累累，你又不敢講，中油被你們壓的聲音都發不出來，只有默默吃苦頭；自來水公司的時候勉強強強，還是在虧損之中，有一個基金在補助；台糖是來賣土地、租土地，勉強維生，拿出你企業家的精神這樣在做，這個國家在你這個經濟部長之下虧損累累，你有沒有什麼解決之道？簡單講一下。"],["郭部長智輝：有，我……"],["陳委員超明：調整電價、瓦斯價、水費，你的辦法我看只有這樣而已啦！"],["郭部長智輝：不一定。"],["陳委員超明：不一定喔？拭目以待啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我有7個構面可以來協助他們怎麼樣降低成本、提高效益。"],["陳委員超明：好，那你趕快提一個報告，不然我們現在每天心不安，鄉下的人說：唉唷，水電要漲了，我要怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我也很怕是這樣，三人成虎，沒有的事情說到變真的。"],["陳委員超明：沒有，你們常常沒有的事情說到變真的，我們有時候要替你辯護都很困難。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，一定要替我辯護。"],["陳委員超明：你剛剛說補貼2,000億，執政黨的立委在回答問題你都微笑，在野黨回答問題你面帶嚴肅。你說2,000億，為什麼要補貼2,000億？你說要50億利息。我教你，我雖然沒有你那麼專家，你就50億利息由國庫來補貼，不要搞到2,000億。頭腦稍微轉一下就會了，這樣事情就解決了。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：用這個思維，為了50億的利息，國庫補貼50億，大家不會說話，你拿2,000億出來。你知道嗎？現在國庫已經補貼3,000億，水電費漲價大概1,000億，4,000億已經給你們了，你現在還要拿2,000億，總共6,000億，難怪大家會懷疑。"],["郭部長智輝：當初在COVID-19的時候是凍漲，影響的是6,000億。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，這樣加一加就太多錢了！有能力的政府應該有應變的技巧，不要講那麼多理由，而是要找到解決困難的辦法。"],["郭部長智輝：是！"],["陳委員超明：好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好！"],["陳委員超明：現在我回歸正題──電業法的修正。當初我提案，你們來拜託我說不要啦，還說中央的政策是一定要分家。106年以前民進黨執政的時候，台電都賺大錢，就像你說的，樹大分枝、要分家，也像國發會劉主委說的要攻城掠地，好像要成為國際型的公司一樣！但是天有不測風雲，人算不如天算，你們現在覺得這樣危險，因為台電虧損累累，又不敢分家、不敢分割財產、不敢掠奪財產了，所以就說要統一管理。這個政策裡面我是覺得有諸多問題存在！當時賺錢，覺得這隻羊好肥，準備要把牠殺了，現在賠錢，羊變瘦了，就說要國家來負擔。政府要有擔當一點，不應該這樣做！那你要怎麼解決這個問題？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在就是要修法，不再把它分割，維持原來綜合電業的方式。"],["陳委員超明：這裡面有一個問題，你們愛面子，該漲的時候不漲！大家每天都在罵馬英九，有什麼可罵的？他那個時候因為國際物價變動就漲電價，不只被罵得要死，還因此失掉政權。你們都不做、都不漲，搞到得現在台電員工苦不堪言！","時間到了嗎？沒有啦，代理主席，蔡召委當主席的話是10分鐘，你不要6分鐘就站起來了啦！唉喲，我們在質詢的時候，你們就怕我們多講話。邱志偉，你這樣怎麼是我的好朋友？"],["蔡委員易餘：他是想趕快讓我發言啦！"],["陳委員超明：你們鼓勵自己的神主牌，尤其邱志偉委員跟我很要好，他說我們在野黨是真的挺核，我們是支持核能，你們說要有幾個要件，但是我要提一個問題，核電最多的國家是法國，美國也有，日本也有，中國大陸也有，你們說有核安問題存在，其實是要做和不做而已，關鍵在你們的神主牌不能打破。你們說的那些問題絕對有辦法解決，看要怎麼找一個偏僻的地方去挖，把補助給他們，哪有什麼不能解決的！都是在找理由、找藉口，因為你們一旦失去反核意識、這個神主牌一旦沒有的話，政權就會不保。你們講得天花亂墜，其實裡面有一個最重要的問題，臺灣核能方面的人才在停用核電之後都被韓國挖走了，他們現在已經建立自己的產業，臺灣核能產業的人才都流失了，很嚴重！","剛剛主席站起來，臺灣在「骯髒的15國」裡面，要特別、特別小心，尤其中小企業、傳統產業受到的影響會更大，不管是到越南或是到哪個地方都不例外，部長，要提早因應！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員超明：你們要提一份報告給我們，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["陳委員超明：這是第一點。其次，張啓楷委員有問到中油和阿拉斯加的合作，你一直在講意向書，所謂意向書是表示你有意願才會叫做意向書。"],["郭部長智輝：是！"],["陳委員超明：唉喲，部長，你敢跟美國抗衡嗎？450億！我知道可能有好幾個國家都去參加了，但是最後不要買到高價的天然氣；我們的投資不要像是做牛做馬，最後還買到高價。美國國債36兆，一年的利息約1兆美金，不把你當成肥羊宰一宰是沒辦法解決問題的。我不是反對，但是不要買到高價，再給中油和台電增加困擾，如果你們能買到比澳洲、沙烏地阿拉伯便宜的價格再說，不然不要這樣啦！","你不要搖頭啦！好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們從阿拉斯加買油10天就可以到臺灣，運送距離最短；第二是也最安全，我們走的是太平洋……"],["陳委員超明：那要買得最便宜喔！"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["陳委員超明：你說運送距離最短啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們是透過……"],["陳委員超明：澳洲幾天？中東幾天？既然要買，就要看成本。不要把我們的國營事業當成待宰的羔羊，好不好？謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席（邱委員志偉代）：陳委員，講完了嗎？","謝謝。請部長回座，謝謝陳超明委員質詢，非常精彩！","下一位質詢請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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我想大概跨黨派都可以支持第一個問題請教一下部長 如果台電的撥補如果能夠順利完成 如果債務黨沒有阻擋台電的撥補一千億的部分那是不是就不會有電價調漲"},{"start":69.537,"end":90.304,"text":"報告委員如果依照您剛才所說明的這個部分我們將會把具體的這個內容交給這個電價審議委員會有因就有果不是有因就有果嘛如果這個果是因為這個一千億撥補沒有到位產生必須要調漲電價這個為什麼不能說呢這個邏輯這一半都可以連結啊是"},{"start":95.339,"end":104.11,"text":"因為我們這個撥補是來改善我們的這個財務的情況財務結構一改善它就沒有急迫性跟必要性馬上要調整電價嘛 對不對"},{"start":106.354,"end":114.077,"text":"所以這部分是邏輯很清楚我這個調整電價的部分完全由這個電價審議委員會他們來做判斷不能推給電價審議委員會您是決策者那決策當然會影響到整個委員會的這個相關判斷所以這一千億能夠到位那我想我認為啦就不會有今天調長的倡議或者是討論了因為財務結構"},{"start":130.373,"end":151.932,"text":"已經基本上改善了這個是一個非常重要的變數啦你又不讓他撥補然後又反對這個電價調漲然後又覺得這個是你的核能政策是你的能源政策這個錯誤造成的你能源政策說你再生能源這個還沒有到位然後又提到這個廢核"},{"start":155.422,"end":180.848,"text":"這個核能啊 我們有幾個原則 核安 核廢處理 社會共識 對不對 是我們有國民黨那麼多的執政縣市的首長 那麼多的這個立法委員還有原民的立委 他們說要請核 說你這個因為你廢核所以才會造成這個電力失衡 電力供應不足目前為止有沒有哪個縣市首長 或者哪一個立委 區域立委"},{"start":181.806,"end":194.801,"text":"跟您提出他希望把這個核電廠核電設施設在他的選區核廢料處理廠這個報告委員這個就像人都一樣大家都想上天堂但是沒有人想死沒有"},{"start":195.936,"end":216.188,"text":"不見得要上天堂啦 活得心安理得就好啦大家都想用電 但是都不想核廢料在你家附近那要講道理嘛我們變成一個這個穩定國家的力量應該是在立法院才對因為要做服國立民的事情然後結果服國立民沒有做好如果你錯過政策 你錯過的決策"},{"start":217.927,"end":234.616,"text":"會變成禍國殃民對 報告委員您講得非常正確我們一定要解決核廢料可以處理我想我們不排除用各種的發電的方式但是核廢料沒有辦法處理活著不是要去上天堂"},{"start":235.476,"end":261.502,"text":"但你不要做到你要下地獄不是我的意思是說大家都想要上天堂但是沒有人想死啦你要做到心安理得你要讓人覺得所有的事情都擺出來讓他去做判斷所以你要不能漲然後又說你核能政策的問題沒有所有的核一核二核三這相關的廚藝都按照法律相關的規定嘛對不對是我們一定依法行事的"},{"start":262.557,"end":290.355,"text":"所以謝謝委員他說台電的虧損是因為核能然後因為再生能源發電的成本太高然後核能處理提早我當然知道不是嘛原料漲價的問題你要講清楚你要去說明白要爭取大家的理解所以我覺得大家沒有深度去思考能源政策的嚴肅性是的"},{"start":292.335,"end":320.729,"text":"然後一些媒體斷章取義把所有的能源政策說是核能的問題我深深不以為然所以到底在野黨是真的挺核還是假挺核在野黨真的挺核還是假挺核我沒有辦法判斷我覺得是假挺核所以就是一個政治操作的議題"},{"start":322.689,"end":345.225,"text":"非核交易不是任何一個政黨的目標非核交易是法律規定的是法律規定對不對是再一個小問題也不是小問題啦簡單的問題也不是簡單的問題啦重要的問題封測白名單的效應是長這個是您怎麼判斷封測白名單封測"},{"start":347.346,"end":351.825,"text":"美國啊對這個有封設白名單我們有幾個廠商在白名單裡面"},{"start":354.151,"end":379.489,"text":"我想我們第一個會先了解這個部分到底美國他們在指的是哪一些範圍管制範圍對這個安全的部分我們一定會全力去防止但會轉單效應啊然後如果這樣子激起中國加速對封測技術的發展這不見得對我們他們沒有能力是不是他們沒有能力啊"},{"start":380.536,"end":408.883,"text":"貿易員這個部分我是專業的我非常的專業所以才問您因為你專業所以美國封測白名單的效應對我們是短多也是長多對不對是的當然這樣很好啦我相關的機會也扮演有風險把風險降到最低把機會升到最高這是我們政府該做的事是謝謝委員所以封測這個白名單基本上是短多也是長多是最後30秒鐘"},{"start":412.638,"end":440.371,"text":"這個新達這個你知道新達海基啊新達海基那他目前要轉型轉型他不是要做製造他是要做這個相關的顧問您知道新達轉型的目前草案跟計畫要經過董事會的同意經過中綱嘛新達海基就在那邊我從他這個高樓起然後從他這個訂單沒有從他變成目前沒有人在那邊這個我每天都在看"},{"start":441.83,"end":450.255,"text":"我覺得有點可惜當然 當初要實行國產化好 你現在虧損了這個六七十億你走不下去 要轉型"},{"start":451.683,"end":476.542,"text":"轉型如果也要轉型變成說對未來的雲有幫助我贊成但你如果成就一個變成一個顧問公司一個諮詢的功能那我就大可不必你可以把興達海基這個基地連加起來大概四五十公頃你可以批建成產業園區產業園區呢就像我爭取的北高雄產業園區包括我爭取的陸竹產業園區也已經開始在建廠已經在規劃"},{"start":477.603,"end":497.739,"text":"那最北邊的茄澱我們不能不照顧這個茄澱產業所以茄澱產業把它闢建成經濟部主管的產業園區啟動這個計畫之後我們把一些海洋產業把它納進來部長你同意嗎好的我們來 複利購可能要經過跟中鋼講一下是請中鋼也支持"},{"start":498.92,"end":523.739,"text":"把這個它可以開發整個這個工業區 產業園區然後也可以招商進來變成一個生產基地我們來評估那評估是不是一個月之內把這個可行性把它評估出來撒各位啦撒各位好不好沒有問題喔三個月之內針對新南海基目前的基地啊拔劈建成進步主管的產業園區三個月提出規劃報告好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時26分）謝謝主席。是不是請經濟部郭部長？"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["邱委員志偉：請能源署李君禮代理署長。"],["主席：好，請代理署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，今天排定審查電業法相關修正條文，我上會期就提出這個版本了，版本大概跟院版是差不多。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：大概有11個條文裡面內容大致相同，我們覺得幾個重點都很重要，我都全力支持，希望看看今天的委員會能不能就作成決議，來送出委員會，我想跨黨派都可以支持。第一個問題，請教部長，台電的撥補如果能夠順利完成，如果在野黨沒有阻擋台電1,000億撥補的部分，是不是就不會有電價調漲？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，依照您剛才說明的這個部分，我們將會把具體的內容交給電價審議委員會……"],["邱委員志偉：有因就有果嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：由他們來參酌。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，有因就有果嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：如果這個果是因為1,000億撥補沒有到位，產生必須要調漲電價，這個為什麼不能說呢？這個邏輯一般人都可以連結啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，因為這個撥補是來改善我們財務的情況。"],["邱委員志偉：對，財務情況一旦改善，它就沒有急迫性跟必要性馬上要調整電價，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這部分是邏輯很清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，調整電價的部分，完全由電價審議委員會他們來做判斷。"],["邱委員志偉：不能推給電價審議委員會，您是決策者，決策當然會影響到整個委員會相關的判斷，假設這1,000億能夠到位，我認為就不會有今天調漲的倡議或討論了啦！因為財務結構基本上已經改善了。"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以這是一個非常重要的變數。"],["邱委員志偉：不讓它撥補，然後又反對電價調漲，又覺得這個是你的能源政策錯誤所造成的，而能源政策，除了再生能源還沒有到位，然後又提到廢核，核能我們有幾個原則，核安、核廢處理、社會共識，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：國民黨有那麼多的執政縣市首長、那麼多的立法委員，還有原民立委，他們說要挺核，說因為你廢核所以才會造成電力失衡、電力供應不足。目前為止，有沒有哪個縣市首長或哪一個區域立委跟您提出，希望把核電廠、核能設施設在他的選區？"],["郭部長智輝：核廢料處理廠。報告委員，這個就像人都一樣，大家都想上天堂，但是沒有人想死。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有，不見得要上天堂，活得心安理得就好啦！"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！大家都想用電，但是都不想核廢料在你家附近做。"],["邱委員志偉：那要講道理嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我們要變成一個……穩定國家的力量應該是在立法院才對，因為要做福國利民的事情，結果福國利民沒有做好，錯誤的政策、決策會變成禍國殃民。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您講得非常正確。"],["邱委員志偉：這是很嚴重的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定要解決，核廢料要可以處理，我們不排除用各種發電的方式。但是核廢料沒有辦法處理，我想這個是最大的命題。"],["邱委員志偉：人活著不是要去上天堂，但不要做到要下地獄。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我的意思是說大家都想要上天堂，但是沒有人想死。"],["邱委員志偉：要做到心安理得，要讓他們覺得所有的事情都擺出來讓他去判斷，所以又要不能漲，又說核能政策的問題，所有的核一、核二、核三相關處理都按照法律相關的規定，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們一定依法行事的，謝謝委員，當然我們……"],["邱委員志偉：他說台電的虧損是因為核能，又因為再生能源發電的成本太高，核能的處理提早。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員……"],["邱委員志偉：我當然知道不是嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：那個都是原料漲價的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你要講清楚、要去說明白，爭取大家的理解，我覺得大家沒有深度去思考能源政策的嚴肅性。一些媒體斷章取義，把所有能源政策的錯誤說是核能的問題，我深深不以為然，所以在野黨是真的挺核還是假的挺核？"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有辦法判斷。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得是假挺核，就是政治操作的議題嘛！非核家園不是任何一個政黨的目標，非核家園是法律規定的。","再來一個重要的問題，「封測白名單」效應，您怎麼判斷？美國的封測白名單，我們有幾個廠商在白名單裡面？"],["郭部長智輝：第一個會先了解到底美國在指的是哪一些管制的範圍，對安全的部分我們一定會全力去防止。"],["邱委員志偉：但有轉單效應，如果這樣激起中國加速對封測技術的發展，這不見得對我們……他們沒有能力，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：他們沒有能力，這個部分我非常的專業。"],["邱委員志偉：因為你專業所以才問您。美國封測白名單的效應，對我們是短多也是長多，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣很好，相關的機會也伴隨著風險，把風險降到最低、機會升到最高，這是政府該做的事情。所以封測白名單，基本上是短多也是長多？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：最後30秒鐘。興達海基目前要轉型，不再做製造，而是要做相關的顧問，興達海基目前的草案跟計畫要經過董事會同意、經過中鋼，興達海基我從它高樓起、訂單沒有、變成目前沒有人在那邊，我每天都在看，我覺得有點可惜，當初要執行國產化，現在虧損了六、七十億，走不下去要轉型，若轉型變成對未來營運有幫助，我贊成，但如果變成顧問公司、諮詢的功能，那我覺得大可不必。把興達海基的基地加起來，大概有四、五十公頃，可以闢建成產業園區，就像我爭取的北高雄產業園區，包括我爭取的路竹產業園區也已經開始在建廠、已經在規劃。最北邊的茄萣，我們不能不照顧茄萣產業，所以將茄萣產業闢建成經濟部主管的產業園區，啟動這個計畫之後，把一些海洋產業納進來，部長，你同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的，我們來……"],["邱委員志偉：腹地夠，可能要跟中鋼講一下，請中鋼也支持，可以開發整個工業區、產業園區，也可以招商進來，變成一個生產基地。"],["郭部長智輝：我們來評估。"],["邱委員志偉：評估是不是1個月之內把可行性評估做出來，好不好？還是3個月，好不好？針對興達海基目前的基地闢建成經濟部主管的產業園區，3個月提出規劃報告。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","下一位請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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郭部長好請郭部長"},{"start":21.212,"end":38.302,"text":"委員好 部長今天我們主席特別排了這個電業法的修法就是要讓我們台電能夠在穩定的營運之下穩定供電尤其是我們民生跟產業尤其是今天會來對於這個電業法的修法是2017年"},{"start":39.423,"end":67.665,"text":"那時候就有要求台電在2025年要拆分為發電跟輸配電跟售電就是長網分離啦那在長網分離的情況下最主要就是讓我們整個這個電業都能夠在自由的市場自由化要讓他們自由化那在自由化的情況之下才能夠讓整個像現在已經在做的就是再生能源他們整個售電業者他們之間都已經互相在做一個交易了所以本心想請問一下"},{"start":69.606,"end":75.253,"text":"因為學者都在講說你們不做就是不要讓整個電業市場自由化那現在部長你要怎麼樣來讓台電在穩定的營運之下又可以做到這個電業市場能夠自由化來減少台電整個對於產業的這個市場的衝擊"},{"start":89.051,"end":102.606,"text":"是 報告委員我們大概因為看到這個整個國際的趨勢都已經開始這個自由競爭那轉為這個強化管制跟整合因為畢竟我們的這個在台灣這麼小嘛"},{"start":104.128,"end":132.314,"text":"那這個資源是有限的你再把它拆開我想這整個不管在營運上面或者管理上面都會有問題不拆開怎麼樣讓這個產業自營發展那我們這個過去各國都是採用補貼啦或者設定價格上限啦那麼開徵報稅報利稅或者這個來確保這個電價的平穩但是我們要怎麼做我們當然是這個參考其他的這個國家先進國家他們的做法"},{"start":132.814,"end":141.127,"text":"或者來比對我們台灣自己本身的資源有多少那我想這個是比較快速的方法但我們自己內部也討論我們自己內部也討論認為"},{"start":144.642,"end":166.803,"text":"拆開可能那個時候的情境是適合拆開的但是現在來講以現在來講我面臨的是我現在必須要快速的讓我台電更具有競爭力所以我要用各種的方法把過去我在這個疫情期間在各種方法之下應該拿到的這個補助"},{"start":167.924,"end":189.257,"text":"是不是可以請大院能夠幫我們再爭取給我們這些你不能一直靠補助啦能源配比我們的能源才是最重要的我們那個是用動漲來補助我們的國人所以那個部分不是台電的責任台電要變成一個好的公司除了這個不拆開以外它必須要有穩定的財政我們要讓整個電業市場穩定的話就是要有管理機制對不對"},{"start":193.942,"end":221.317,"text":"要有好的管理在106年的時候我們通過修正之後的話希望這個電業法在一年後能夠開公聽會來成立一個管理的機關那現在的管理機關的話我們本身我們的電力辦公室裡面就有叫請能源署來作為這個管理機關那能源署的話上下就是你們的所屬嘛那這樣子的話有沒有求嚴兼裁判沒有辦法讓我們整個獨立出來"},{"start":225.285,"end":235.9,"text":"報告委員我們在這一方面管理的方面我們是採取開放的態度開放可是能源署的話你未來是不是要請這個管理機關就是能源署"},{"start":237.27,"end":254.319,"text":"我們當然是要先這個社會整個都在監管整個監管沒有錯我們在希望說你獨立在政府以外的機關來管理的話才有公平性跟透明才能夠適時的作為監督跟接避的方式謝謝委員這個方面我們會來進行"},{"start":258.871,"end":267.427,"text":"可是我們現在看到的是整個電業市場沒有辦法分離的話你們就要把管理機制一套做出來才能夠讓整個電業市場能夠穩定自由化會的你們會做到嗎會"},{"start":272.113,"end":292.21,"text":"那部長那尤其是說我們現在看到整個電價審議你剛剛特別講到如果漲電價這個是電價審議小組的事情可是你要看到我們剛剛幾個委員都提到了我們不能每次都拿跟韓國比韓國現在他們的平均他的電價大概都比我們多了"},{"start":292.85,"end":307.696,"text":"一塊錢相差一塊錢可是我們的薪資所得我們台灣大概在37K那韓國在60K也比我們比較高在不一樣的水平之下這樣子比較是不對的所以其實整個電價審議委員會會不會漲電價完全是還是有看上級長官也是部長你們這邊可以有"},{"start":314.139,"end":342.261,"text":"妥占性的這個給他們建議最重要還是要回歸一句話不要漲民生電價因為已經漲了這麼多了我們也給你補助了 補助了500億還有給你們增資了2500億就3000億了所以歸本要處理要解決的問題還是屬於能源政策整個配比才能夠來幫助我們整個電能夠穩定的供應才是最重要的謝謝委員的協助但是我們在COVID-19那段期間一共花了6000億"},{"start":343.945,"end":358.243,"text":"所以我們也補了三千億給你所以我們還不足三千億不足的話我們要想辦法解決這個問題不是一直靠撥補啦我們都努力在想辦法解決這些問題對 能源政策也是很重要的一個方式你要解決這個配比的問題好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝呂玉玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時12分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：好，請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，今天主席特別排了電業法的修法，就是要讓台電能夠在穩定的營運之下穩定供電，尤其是我們的民生跟產業。今天會針對電業法來進行修法，是因為在2017年修法的時候有要求台電在2025年要拆分為發電、輸配電跟售電，就是廠網分離啦。在廠網分離的情況下，最主要就是讓整個電業都能夠在自由的市場自由化，要讓他們自由化，在自由化的情況之下，才能夠讓整個……像現在已經在做的就是再生能源，整個售電業者他們之間都已經互相在做交易了。所以本席想請問一下，因為學者都在講說你們不做就是不要讓整個電業市場自由化嘛，部長，現在你要怎麼樣讓台電在穩定的營運之下，又可以做到電業市場能夠自由化，來減少台電對於整個產業及市場的衝擊，你怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，事實上，我們是因為看到整個國際的趨勢，都已經開始由自由競爭轉為強化管制跟整合，因為畢竟臺灣就這麼小嘛，資源是有限的，你再把它拆開，我想這整個不管在營運上面或管理上面都會有一些問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：不拆開，要怎麼樣讓這個產業自由化？"],["郭部長智輝：過去各國都是採用補貼，或者設定價格上限啦，開徵暴利稅等來確保電價的平穩，但是我們要怎麼做？我們當然是參考其他國家、先進國家他們的作法，或者來比對臺灣自己本身的資源有多少，我想這個是比較快速的方法。但我們自己內部也有討論，認為拆開，可能那個時候的情境是適合拆開的，但是以現在來講，我面臨的是我現在必須要快速的讓台電更具有競爭力，所以我要用各種方法把過去在疫情期間應該拿到的補助……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，在各種方法之下……"],["郭部長智輝：是不是可以請大院能夠幫我們再爭取，給我們這2,000億元……"],["呂委員玉玲：你不能一直靠補助啦，能源配比，我們的能源才是最重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們是用凍漲來補助我們的國人，所以那個部分不是台電的責任，台電要變成一個好的公司，除了不拆開以外，它必須要有穩定的財政。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，最重要的，我們要讓整個電業市場穩定的話，就是要有管理機制，對不對？要有好的管理，在106年時我們通過電業法修正之後，希望在一年後能夠開公聽會，來成立一個管理的機關，現在的管理機關，我們本身，我們的電力辦公室裡面就有請能源署來作為管理機關，而能源署的話，上下就是你們的所屬嘛，這樣子的話，有沒有球員兼裁判，沒有辦法讓整個獨立出來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們在這一方面，管理的方面，我們是採取開放的態度。"],["呂委員玉玲：開放？可是能源署的話，未來的管理機關是不是就是能源署？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是要先……其實社會整個都在監管啊。"],["呂委員玉玲：整個監管，沒有錯，我們是希望由獨立在政府以外的機關來管理的話，才有公平性跟透明啊，才能夠適時的做好監督跟揭弊方面。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，這方面我們會來進行。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是我們現在看到的是整個電業市場沒有辦法分離的話，你們就要把一套管理機制做出來，才能夠讓整個電業市場穩定、自由化。"],["郭部長智輝：會的。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們會做到嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：會。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，尤其是我們現在看到整個電價審議，你剛剛特別講到，如果要漲電價，這個是電價審議小組的事情，可是你要看到，剛剛幾個委員都提到了，我們不能每一次都拿韓國來相比，韓國現在他們的平均電價大概比我們多了一塊錢，相差一塊錢，可是我們的薪資所得，臺灣大概在37K，韓國則是在60K，也比我們高，在不一樣的水平之下，這樣子的比較是不對的。其實整個電價審議委員會會不會漲電價，完全還是要看上級長官，也就是部長你們這邊，可以妥善性的給他們建議。最重要的，還是要回歸一句話，不要漲民生電價，因為已經漲這麼多了，我們也給你補助了，補助了500億，還給你們增資了2,500億，加起來就3,000億了。所以歸本要處理、要解決的問題還是屬於能源政策的整個配比，才能幫助我們整個電能夠穩定的供應，才是最重要的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的協助，但是我們在COVID-19那段期間一共花了6,000億。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們也補了3,000億給你啊。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們還不足3,000億。"],["呂委員玉玲：不足的話，你們要想辦法解決這個問題，不是一直靠撥補啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們都努力在想辦法解決這些問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，能源政策也是一個很重要的方式。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：你要解決這個配比的問題，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝呂玉玲委員。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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法令規定嘛所以我問你一個問題剛才很多委員問你問你說假設修法你支持本席就問你一句嘛假設修法你支持嘛"},{"start":388.085,"end":396.293,"text":"修法你支持嗎我也想要知道你的態度啊我們尊重大院的決定我就覺得這個是你打臉自己你知道嗎當初2017年我們電業法也修過了啊立法院也修過了啊你們到現在也是要翻盤啊是不是所以這是可以調整的你的立場非常重要"},{"start":410.466,"end":410.627,"text":"謝謝委員指導"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時5分）主席，雖然我們是四分鐘加一分鐘，但每個人都講十分鐘，下次就乾脆八分鐘好了，謝謝。","主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，今天雖然是審電業法，但我想朝野所有委員大家最關心的就是要不要漲電價這件事情。本席想請問部長，如果加上這一次，這三年來是第幾次漲電價了，您知道嗎？您記得嗎？從2022年到現在。"],["郭部長智輝：有確定這次會漲電價嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：報紙都在寫，還是你支持凍漲？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先問一下，部長支持凍漲嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是看報紙在做行政的……"],["張委員嘉郡：是！電價審議委員會28日即將舉行，這是不是……部長的態度呢？今天部長的態度是告訴我們，你支持凍漲嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我已經報告過非常多次，電價是電價審議委員會所決定的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先問你，從2022到現在，已經漲了幾次了？"],["郭部長智輝：從過去到現在，我的任內是兩次。"],["張委員嘉郡：反正總共是四次了。"],["郭部長智輝：四次是別人任內，你問我幾次，在我的任內我的印象只有兩次。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席再問你一個問題。假設二十八號真的漲了，就像現在報章、媒體、各大報都說，民生漲11%，總體6%。這幾次加起來，你知道漲多少percent嗎？漲多少？我算給你聽……"],["郭部長智輝：別人漲80%，我們到目前才漲40%……"],["張委員嘉郡：好，你先看一下。漲了48.9%！假設原本電費是一千塊一個月，現在要改繳一千五百塊一個月。本席要提醒部長，現在收到的消息是，連最基本的一百二十度以下的住宅用電都不放過，是不是？您的態度呢？我就問您的態度，一百二十度以下的住宅用電要不要放過？"],["郭部長智輝：有誰他們家用電可以用二十度以下……"],["張委員嘉郡：一百二十度！是一百二十度，不是二十度！所以我想請問部長，48.9%是將近一半，這是鋪天蓋地的大幅度！"],["郭部長智輝：一百二十度的電費只有1.68元，一度。"],["張委員嘉郡：錢啊！都是錢啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我的成本每一度電……"],["張委員嘉郡：你的成本你要講啊，你又不用核電，對不對？況且5月之後就全部沒有了，本來最便宜的1.41元的核電沒有了！再講到今天……"],["郭部長智輝：核電占所有發電不到10%……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席做一個建議，是不是三百三十一度以下的民生用電不要漲？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是部長可以裁示一下？"],["郭部長智輝：發電只是其中的一部分，其實輸配電成本是很驚人的，你想一下……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你一直說韓國，還說如果跟韓國電價一樣台電就不會賠錢。但你要知道，韓國基本薪資比我們多1.46倍，按照平均物價指數來看，你這樣講不合理的，所以不能只拿韓國來比。"],["郭部長智輝：我非常希望能夠跟您討論經濟的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：韓國現在還有百分之二十幾的核電，你怎麼不學呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個才是我的本業。報告委員，我們來討論經濟的問題，我非常高興能夠……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再問你電業法。2017年民進黨修法要求台電在2025年前完成發電、輸配電、售電分離然後促進市場競爭，但這一次要再修回來，我也支持，以維持它的整體性，可是呢，我就不能理解，為什麼當初要拆的時候說得這麼冠冕堂皇，今天又不要拆？既然是這樣子的話，當初的決定是不是不專業？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我20年前是拿Nokia的手機，現在拿的是iPhone 16……"],["張委員嘉郡：當初鐵了心要把它拆掉……"],["郭部長智輝：因為二者是不一樣的情境嘛。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，你這句話，我就想要等你這句話，你說是因為時空背景不一樣，現在臺灣面臨的是要漲電價，等於是所有的民生物價都要漲，這是小老百姓的痛苦耶，現在的時空背景是不是也跟以前不一樣呢？以前電價便宜，現在電價貴啊！既然電業法當初說要拆分，現在決定不拆分，那是不是你們過去說不要核能，現在為了我們民生電價要穩定，也可以改用核能，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，20年前民生的電價比現在還便宜。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊，當然啦，所以你是不是應該要能夠重啟核能？"],["郭部長智輝：現在的電價比20年前的電價要便宜啊。"],["張委員嘉郡：330度以下，但是你現在還是要漲它呀！你現在還是要漲它，不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：成本已經變那麼多啦。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你要降成本啊！核能最便宜你不用，到底是什麼原因嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：法令，法令規定嘛！法令如果在大院裡面可以解開，我們非常願意尊重大院的決定……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以我問你一個問題，本席就問你一句嘛，假設修法你支不支持，本席就問你一句，假設修法你支持嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：修法你支持嗎？我也想要知道你的態度啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我們尊重立法院，我們尊重大院的決定。"],["張委員嘉郡：我就覺得這個是你打臉你自己，你知道嗎？當初2017年電業法我們也修過，立法院也修過了啊，你們到現在還是要翻盤啊，是不是？所以這是可以調整的，你的立場非常重要。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才所說的，與時俱進嘛，法令也應該是與時俱進。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們會與時俱進，那你這邊也要提出你的版本、你的態度啊！我們都希望支持，就是你如果是支持核能可以重啟的話，那大家一起來嘛，朝野大家一起來，讓我們全臺灣用便宜的電啊，好嗎？謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：好，張委員也是一樣說到欲罷不能，不過等一下審議的時候還可以再講，等一下我們處理條文時還可以再講。","下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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所以不宜常態化處理所以難道因為並非年年有颱風所以我們就不需要立法防災嗎不用立防災法嗎"},{"start":205.186,"end":224.339,"text":"所以正因為不是年年有,才更需要有制度的規範如果沒有制度的原則性安排,就沒有財政治理的永續性根基第六點,立法會限制財政彈性,無法因應變局"},{"start":226.016,"end":241.223,"text":"彈性當然重要啊 但是你彈性凌駕原則那你的結果就是特別預算 特別氾濫還有國會監督邊緣化 在被你造謠 重傷 污衊"},{"start":242.813,"end":262.786,"text":"那不能讓民意排除於財政決策之外 本席要再次提醒 人民是頭家你們用的是人民的納稅錢 所以你理應還稅於民 你理應向人民來報告所以我們不是要削弱行政的效率 我們是希望補強財政的正義"},{"start":266.803,"end":292.801,"text":"最後第七點普發現金因靠特別條例不能制度化那我想請問為什麼企業減稅可以編常態預算科技國防追加可以進入年度預算人民退稅只能靠臨時條例嗎所以當人民退稅成為例外政府編偏財就會變成慣例就會變成慣例所以我們最後主張正義財政正義的"},{"start":295.509,"end":314.521,"text":"五大理由 超徵因涉還稅機制不可任意支配建立透明計算與分配機制 還稅愚民法治化 減少政策的任意性財政不能靠施捨 財政是人民的權利歸還"},{"start":316.007,"end":327.736,"text":"最後發現金不再只能是政治操作不然每逢選舉我們就出現了神秘盈餘最後強化國會預算跟決算的聯動"},{"start":331.939,"end":347.096,"text":"設計預算決算對照條款國會對於超收資金運用具追蹤與再分配的權限最後我協論一下讓我們能夠推動一部真正屬於人民的預算法"},{"start":347.997,"end":368.683,"text":"讓盈餘不只是口號是正義的回饋讓財政不只是表格與數字是政府與人民的契約信任請主席長您針對本席今天的破解能夠給我們報告一一回應 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員的質詢下一位請黃國昌黃國昌我們不在"},{"start":374.571,"end":378.413,"text":"報告委員會今日正式發言委員經已訓導完畢現在進行討論四項請議事人員宣讀今日"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1311,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時58分）謝謝主席，本席請主計長。"],["主席：主計長請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席、主計長以及在座各位官員，大家好。我們今天不是在這裡爭論技術細節，也不是討論一筆盈餘怎麼分，我們要先問一個最根本的問題：你們知不知道你們到底用的是誰的錢？要對誰交代？我們的執政黨說人民是頭家，用的是人民的錢，要對人民交代。政府年年超徵稅收，人民卻無從分享，稅制口頭喊著進步，但是操作卻接近壟斷！接下來本席要就主計長在報告中提的7大說法，我不知道是邏輯錯誤、政治錯位，還是您受了多大的壓力，我要一一來破解。","第一個，超徵只是預估誤差，並非常態發生，但如果年年都有意外，那就不是意外、也不是例外，它變成常態了。我們有所謂的隨機誤差、系統誤差，你這個已經連續4年，所以不是例外，是一個模式，它是系統誤差。你預算長年的保守低估，本席合理懷疑你是結構性的掩飾手法，所以我們希望今天本席的質詢，你們會後要一一回應。","第二個，即使超收仍要扣還本與短差，政府未必有餘。為何預算從未如實反映出這個支出和還本的結構？為何超收必須要彌補過往的黑洞，卻沒有看到你們向人民報帳？人民多繳的是稅，所以政府必須向人民交代。","第三個，債務有還本機制，無須再設還稅規定。正因為還本有法源，所以還稅更應該有制度，我們目前沒有任何超收返還的條文，也沒有比例優先原則或是用途的限制，完全是行政部門想還就還，不想就撐，這是絕對不可以的。如果預算照你們這樣做，會變成行政權的口袋錢包，預算如果不受立法的節制，超收就會變成你們合法的掠奪。","第四個，歲計賸餘須待審計，尚未定案。誰說沒有定案就不能夠先設原則？我們要的是建立制度性的比例機制，審計確定後可以依法撥付，如果遇到緊急情況，也可以訂定合理的調整條件，所以主計長，這不是不能，是你們不想。","再來，更離譜的第五點，並非年年有賸餘，所以不宜常態化處理。難道因為並非年年有颱風，所以我們就不需要立法防災嗎？不用立防災法嗎？正因為不是年年有，才更需要有制度的規範，如果沒有制度的原則性安排，就沒有財政治理的永續性根基。","第六點，立法會限制財政彈性，無法因應變局。彈性當然重要，但是彈性凌駕原則，結果就是特別預算、特別氾濫，還有國會監督邊緣化，再被你造謠、重傷、污衊，不能讓民意被排除於財政決策之外。本席要再次提醒，人民是頭家，你們用的是人民的納稅錢，你理應還稅於民，你理應向人民來報告，所以我們不是要削弱行政的效率，我們是希望補強財政的正義。","最後第七點，普發現金應靠特別條例，不能制度化。那我想請問，為什麼企業減稅可以編常態預算、科技國防追加可以進入年度預算？人民退稅只能靠臨時條例嗎？所以當人民退稅成為例外，政府偏財就會變成慣例。","我們最後主張財政正義的五大理由：超徵應設還稅機制，不可任意支配；建立透明計算與分配機制；還稅於民法制化，減少政策的任意性；財政不能靠施捨，財政是人民的權利歸還；普發現金不再只能是政治操作，不然每逢選舉就出現神秘盈餘；最後，強化國會預算跟決算的連動，設計預算、決算對照條款，國會對於超收資金運用，具追蹤與再分配的權限。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我做結論一下，讓我們能夠推動一部真正屬於人民的預算法，讓盈餘不只是口號，是正義的回饋，讓財政不只是表格與數字，是政府與人民的契約信任。請主計長針對本席今天的破解，能夠給我們報告，一一回應，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐委員的質詢。","下一位請黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在場。","報告委員會，今天登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","現在進行討論事項，請議事人員宣讀今日審查預算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案等3案之提案內容，預計宣讀時間2分鐘，宣讀完後就進行協商。我們將休息5分鐘，同時宣讀。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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申請的戶數是75萬.8戶那核定的部分是64.2萬戶當中那已經有駁回的是2萬3千多戶"},{"start":46.81,"end":68.947,"text":"所以剛剛部長你說的可能到11月就會用慶但那是以現在核准的案件數那如果再多增加核准的案件數是不是更早就用完了報告委員我們原來在預估年度計畫的時候就是以75萬戶為主"},{"start":70.988,"end":95.079,"text":"所以現在已經核定就是75萬戶那現在的核定件數是64.2萬戶那你現在是64.2嘛如果是你剛剛說到11月底是75萬戶的數量算嗎對已經核定的去算嗎是的OKOK好那另外今天我們講這個租賃住宅市場透明化"},{"start":96.243,"end":125.341,"text":"那部長其實現在大家在講這個透明化可能最大的就是租金有沒有透明化是的是不是大概就是這個問題而已大致上是這樣子但是我們是我們對外的講的部分就是如果公部門可以掌握的我們一定可以對外公布但是如果不是公部門而是私人的尤其是這個出租人本身他不願意公布的話我們在查核上會有困難"},{"start":126.741,"end":146.719,"text":"就是它公布的這個金額到底是對還是不對沒有人敢去確定那如果我們就是放在我們自己的公布門裡面把它公布出去的話反而會影響到租屋市場會變成有點混亂所以我們才會說要兩方面一定要齊頭並進的讓它可以穩健式的朝著租賃市場的租金透明化方面發展"},{"start":147.898,"end":168.703,"text":"沒有錯啦因為私人的部分啦有沒有包含水電或是有沒有包含裝潢我覺得這個都差很多那有的有沒有包含管理費對不對或甚至他有沒有車位這個都有不一樣的這個價格啦所以你要去"},{"start":170.757,"end":196.805,"text":"實質上掌握到它是不是合理是不是以目前我們所有政府相關機關也沒有辦法做到百分之百報告委員那個我們跟地方政府其實地方政府他們也是非常同意要朝著這個資訊透明化發展但是確實就像您所說的真的非常困難因為數據如果失真的話就影響到整個租賃市場上面的一個健全發展這個是我們比較擔心的部分"},{"start":198.425,"end":216.191,"text":"對那回過頭來我們所有的公部門的比如住住中心的或什麼的我們這個的現在有沒有做到百分之百的透明化的應該有住住中心有我是不是請我們處長來跟您回應一下他在做統計上面百分之百的透明化"},{"start":216.877,"end":240.696,"text":"我們目前已經有蒐集租金補貼、社會住宅等相關公佈門的這些租賃案件的契約全部都已經把它對 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我覺得我們公部門的條件都很公開你就讓大家去查詢你這個是沒有裝潢的你是毛配物或什麼的或你有帶什麼的啊你租金是多少啊你怎樣你就是很透明啊你這樣完全透明我一查就很清楚嘛那你私人的部分可能他的"},{"start":452.39,"end":479.361,"text":"房子比較好一點他裝潢比較好一點可能貴個幾成我可以接受啊我覺得這樣子就很清楚了因為你要一步做到100分我覺得很困難啦但我們不是不往那邊走不過你這個公部門百分之百可以透明讓民眾非常清楚了解的我覺得先讓民眾非常清楚了解這就很簡單了我們來改進好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時58分）請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，就剛剛講的租金補貼部分，我們今年會不會再有新的租金補貼的核准？"],["劉部長世芳：有，我們現在本來就是開放申請，剛剛我有跟委員報告，到目前為止，申請戶數是75.8萬戶，核定部分是64.2萬戶左右，已經有駁回的是兩萬三千多戶。"],["張委員宏陸：對，所以剛剛部長說的，可能到11月就會用罄……"],["劉部長世芳：可能會用罄，不夠。"],["張委員宏陸：但那是以現在核准的案件數。"],["劉部長世芳：是！"],["張委員宏陸：如果再多增加核准的案件數，是不是更早就用完了？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們原來在預估年度計畫的時候，就是以75萬戶為主，而現在已經申請75萬戶，核定件數是64.2萬戶。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！你現在是64.2嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：對！"],["張委員宏陸：你剛剛說到11月底是75萬戶的數量去算嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：對、對！已經核定的。"],["張委員宏陸：去算嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：OK。另外，今天我們談租賃住宅市場透明化，部長，其實現在大家在講這個透明化，可能最大的原因就是租金有沒有透明化，是不是大概就是這個問題而已？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。大致上是這樣子，但是我們對外講的部分，如果公部門可以掌握的，我們一定可以對外公布，但如果不是公部門，而是私人的，尤其是出租人本身不願意公布的話，我們在查核上會有困難，就是他公布的金額，到底是對還是不對，沒有人敢去確定，如果放在我們自己的公部門裡面，把它公布出去的話，反而會影響到租屋市場，會變成有點混亂，所以我們才會說兩方面一定要齊頭並進，讓它可以穩健地朝著租賃市場的租金透明化方面發展。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯啦，因為私人的部分有沒有包含水電，或者是有沒有包含裝潢，有的有沒有包含管理費，我覺得都差很多，對不對？或甚至有沒有車位，這個都有不一樣的價格，所以你要實質上掌握到它是不是合理，以目前我們所有政府相關機關也沒有辦法做到百分之百？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們跟地方政府，其實地方政府也是非常同意要朝著資訊透明化發展，但是確實就像您所說的真的非常困難，因為數據如果失真的話，就影響到整個租賃市場上面的健全發展，這是我們比較擔心的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：對。回過頭來，我們所有的公部門，比如說住都中心或什麼的，我們現在有沒有做到百分之百的透明化？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請我們處長來跟你回應一下，他在做統計上面朝百分之百的透明。"],["饒處長志堅：我們目前已經有蒐集租金補貼、社會住宅等相關公部門的租賃案件契約，全部都已經把它……"],["劉部長世芳：只要是公部門的都有。"],["饒處長志堅：對，都有。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我主要是問，只要是公部門的已經百分之百透明了，然後有公布了？"],["饒處長志堅：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我就是問這一個，沒錯嘛？"],["饒處長志堅：對！"],["張委員宏陸：好，您先請坐。所以部長，其實如果沒有今天這樣子，很多人也都還不知道公部門已經百分之百公開透明給大家查詢了，這一點很多人可能還不知道，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是，可能我們對外宣導不足啦！所以我們再繼續來宣導。"],["張委員宏陸：不是、不是，不是對外宣導不足的問題，我覺得你們每次講你們做了多少、做了多少了，你們做了很多，但是公部門已經百分之百了，這一點可能比例到多少，我現在也不知道，但這一點要先讓大家知道。我覺得至少公部門是已經透明化了，即公部門的地方，我為什麼要這樣特別問呢？其實公部門就沒有我剛剛說的那麼多差異性啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員宏陸：這一棟完全沒有裝潢的是多少，或是這一棟包含裝潢多少，公部門沒有那些差異性，對不對？甚至差異性非常小，是不是這樣？"],["劉部長世芳：是，如果按照委員這樣的說法，我是覺得在公部門能夠掌握到的資訊，已經是百分之百實價登錄，但是私人部門，我們真的很難掌握到，因為公權力不容易掌握到民法所規範的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯啦！部長，我本來就是要跟你講公部門已經實價登錄了，而且公部門你的實價登錄、你的條件，大家都很清楚，可以去看，沒有裝潢不一樣，沒有這一戶要附車位、這一戶沒有附車位，你的標準幾乎都是一樣的。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我覺得在租賃市場要透明化的部分，你們現在做的，我也沒有說你們錯，不過我會建議把公部門的部分獨立出來，讓人家好查詢，讓人家好知道，這樣我一查，現在不管是怎麼樣，但我知道公部門大概多少，這樣可不可以啊？"],["饒處長志堅：我們目前已經公布兩次有關公部門租金的相關資訊，包括它是套房、整層、雅房、是在哪一個行政區，甚至是在大學周邊等，這些我們都已經有公布相關的統計資料。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道你有公布啦！我的意思是說在網站上……"],["劉部長世芳：把它分開來。"],["張委員宏陸：把它分開來，讓民眾一查就知道啦！"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們來研議。其實我們也希望公布公部門的部分，能夠做定錨的效果。"],["張委員宏陸：對、對！"],["劉部長世芳：譬如說住宅在某一個市中心區，它的租金就是這麼高，旁邊不可能突然是三倍高，但是就像委員所說，它裡面如果裝潢非常地好，或者有附車位等等這些，它的租金就不是我們能夠一手掌握的。"],["張委員宏陸：對！我覺得我們公部門的條件都很公開，你就讓大家去查詢，這個是沒有裝潢的、是毛胚屋或有附什麼的、租金是多少或怎麼樣，就是很透明啊！這樣完全透明，我一查就很清楚；而私人的部分，可能他的房子比較好一點、裝潢比較好一點，可能貴個幾成，我可以接受啊！我我覺得這樣子就很清楚，因為你要一步做到一百分，我覺得很困難啦！但你們不是不往那邊走，不過讓公部門百分之百可以透明、讓民眾非常清楚瞭解，我覺得先讓民眾非常清楚瞭解，這就很簡單了啊！"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們來改進。"],["張委員宏陸：好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc04d2c9e49d9a3d3118313c4daf57d80adfcfba9c389d3a535d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:06:40 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對不起指涉到這個集會遊行法"},{"start":66.573,"end":94.408,"text":"那後來我了解到就是因為台北市政府有一個單行法規他這個單行法規要求如果你要登記集會遊行的話呢他必須要六天前登記而且要繳交三萬元的租金那後來我要求警政署再通令全台灣各地的警政單位的同仁就是說還是以院長跟部長所指示的為原則跟所謂的集會遊行法完全都沒有相關"},{"start":95.439,"end":117.432,"text":"好 謝謝部長非常清楚的說明我認為台北市政府在這個基本的人民的公權利人民在行使他們公民的權益上面竟然用這種方式來刁難我認為非常的不齒那所以我覺得在這邊再次的說明是非常重要的我甚至懷疑說台北市政府這個蔣事府是不是有違反這個選罷法53條裡面妨礙公民來從事罷免活動這樣的規定"},{"start":122.495,"end":138.199,"text":"所以我認為在這邊必須要予以譴責我也不希望說明明是保障人民來行使集會遊行自由的這樣的權利最後變成刁難公民的這樣的限制好 那另外一件事情我也想要跟部長再次確認因為這個租屋補貼對很多年輕人來說真的是幫助非常大"},{"start":143.82,"end":148.263,"text":"那剛剛其實部長也有說到說租屋補貼從50萬戶已經提高到75萬戶了那在之前在審這個國土管理業務的預算的時候被藍白刪掉了1.4億然後凍結了41億那我認為這是非常嚴重的一件事情所以其實之前有試算過如果真的照這樣子刪下去凍下去其實租金補貼是會嚴重受到影響的那可不可以請部長在這邊說明一下這樣子是真的"},{"start":175.361,"end":190.052,"text":"補助的租戶的數字以及這個租金的金額是不是都會受到影響對也就是說未來的方案到底是降低他的這個合定件數或者是降低已經合定的個別的租金"},{"start":190.672,"end":217.482,"text":"目前我們仍然在這個研議當中但是我們仍然不希望朝這方面發展因為就像黃委員所說的申請租金補貼年輕族群真的非常多不管是單身或是就學或者是就業或者是有那個這個學齡前的兒童這個是我們比較關心的部分所以這個部分也是拜託委員可以在立法裡面多多幫忙包括山跟洞的部分千萬不要去動到這個租金補貼的部分"},{"start":218.888,"end":245.175,"text":"好那我們能幫的都幫了阿富翼案也過了阿所以只是說接下來如果可以盡快解凍的話當然也是希望可以盡快解凍不要去影響年輕人的租金的這個權益那再來回到今天的這個主題喔我想喔其實剛剛前面很多委員都有提到了租屋市場目前的資訊不對稱的問題還是蠻嚴重的所以我還是希望未來可以更公平然後更透明這個是大家都想要做到的"},{"start":245.615,"end":266.772,"text":"那我看了一下這個這個租金補貼其實實價登錄我認為是已經開始逐步有成效那我也在這邊想要另外肯定一件事情是這個租金電價的部分因為租金電價的新制上路之後確實對蠻多租客來說是一個福音那因為我自己過去也是十年的租屋族那也知道說過去大家都有被收過一度五塊這種事情"},{"start":267.873,"end":294.221,"text":"那新制上路之後不能超過當期的平均電價這件事情其實是對租客一個很重要的一個基本的權益啦那這個我這邊想要特別提到的是就是租金透明化這件事情那裡面我想要講的是這個代管業啊就是雖然你們說這個是民間對民間那我們政府端到底有沒有一些方式是就是我們跟代管業者來對然後讓他們跟"},{"start":297.902,"end":320.809,"text":"租客之間可以讓這個租賃市場是可以更透明的報告委員代管業的部分的話其實在現在包租代管的件數裡面其實代管案件其實是佔非常大的一個比例那因為很多房東的部分他沒有多餘的心思去做一些管理一些修繕那現在的部分我們也"},{"start":321.169,"end":347.019,"text":"其實也透過包租代管業者來協助那個我們房東那透過代管的部分把這些那個空屋把它釋放出來那房客可以受到照顧房東也可以輕鬆解決掉很多事情對但就我所知因為代管業者其實因為他不負責收租金嘛所以變成說租金的這個大致的區間那跟他的金額其實就會變成是一個沒有辦法你們去"},{"start":347.97,"end":366.651,"text":"管理去介入的一個部分那個部分有關於代管要不要實價登錄的部分其實我們在去年有辦過一個座談那業者大概會有幾個顧慮第一個他沒有辦法掌握到一個租金的行情因為他不一定會收租第二個部分房東有些不希望他的一個租金資訊透明"},{"start":369.153,"end":396.891,"text":"所以他反而如果要強制實價登錄有些房東可能就連代管都不給業者來做代管反而會讓整個一個市場更不專業所以業者大概會有這些疑問所以我在想要如何你們還能怎麼去協調業者讓他們同時願意揭露某種程度的可能是一個區間或者是更細緻的說那至少他可以提供基本的一個行情嘛那不要說很明確的數字那一步一步來但是不能說"},{"start":398.253,"end":403.246,"text":"因為他們遇到困難所以就都不管這就是我希望你們解決的啊"},{"start":404.266,"end":428.538,"text":"那現在的話其實我們現在會就我們的資訊的部分來做一個統計的處理讓民眾可以透過相關的其他的方式來知道一個租金的一個透明的行情好這個真的要拜託那另外一件事情我想要講這個租屋品質因為其實在我們住宅法裡面規定有說申請政府的租屋補貼他必須要符合第40條定的這個基本的居住水準"},{"start":429.298,"end":444.554,"text":"那可是這個基本居住水準裡面的明文規定其實都只有提到說應該要符合多少的面積大小但是並沒有提到安全性的部分那其實我們現在租屋的市場裡面那種獨立的套房跟雅房就是"},{"start":445.434,"end":456.744,"text":"房東可能又把它分割成很多小的房間然後安全跟消防可能是有疑慮的這種並沒有放在這個基本居住水準裡面也就是說雖然我們政府非常用心給大家300億去進行租屋補貼可是因為這個基本的居住水準裡面沒有提到相關的安全部分也就是說雅房他出租的時候他一樣可以跟你們申請補貼可是他可能沒有符合安全的需求"},{"start":470.416,"end":482.016,"text":"所以我在這邊是希望具體建議這個基本居住水準裡面可不可以也去提一些安全性的需求否則現在市場上很多這種雅房其實完全不符合消防安全的規定"},{"start":485.643,"end":500.405,"text":"感謝委員的確我們當時在討論的時候大概因為因為像面積或有一些基本設施因為各縣市的差異很大所以當時我們也請地方政府是不是能夠就自己各縣市的特殊的規格去開"},{"start":501.426,"end":526.829,"text":"但委員剛剛提的這個安全的部分我講這個建議是非常值得重視那我們回去也會去做一個討論就是說看是不是在某些方面是給他這樣子的一個要求但是相對啦如果房東願意來加入的話我們也把他納入到後續的修繕費補助裡面把這些項目把他明文訂出來那這樣的話對他們來講雙方都是一個品質的提升對好很棒謝謝署長那我希望朝這方面來努力好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時6分）謝謝主席。我們請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。首先先跟您請教一下，最近有一件事情我非常的在意，在上禮拜四的時候，臺北市政府說中央內政部有規定擺罷免的連署攤竟然要申請集會遊行。當然部長有在媒體上面澄清過了，可不可以在這邊再次的說明，真的有這樣的規定嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我跟委員報告一下，其實不管是卓院長或者是我，在行政院接受立法委員質詢的時候，都有提到選舉、罷免、創制、複決是人民的參政權利，我們要保障他們權利的時候要先能夠維護他們的安全。臺北市警局跟臺北市政府，他們最後有一個臺北市警局的方案出來，我也非常清楚的表達，第一個，我們要保障所有公民的權益還有安全，但是並沒有特別指涉到集會遊行法，後來我了解因為臺北市政府有一個單行法規，這個單行法規要求如果你要集會遊行的話，必須要6天前登記，而且要繳交3萬元的租金，後來我要求警政署再通令全臺灣各地警政單位的同仁，還是以院長跟部長所指示的為原則，跟所謂集會遊行法完全都沒有相關。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長，非常清楚的說明。我認為臺北市政府在人民行使他們公民的基本權益上面，竟然用這種方式來刁難，我認為非常的不恥，所以我覺得在這邊再次的說明是非常重要的，我甚至懷疑臺北市政府、蔣市府是不是有違反選罷法第五十三條規定，妨礙公民來從事罷免活動。所以我認為在這邊必須要予以譴責，我也不希望明明是保障人民來行使集會遊行自由這樣的權利，最後變成刁難公民的限制。","另外一件事情，我也想要跟部長再次確認，因為租屋補貼對很多年輕人來說真的是幫助非常大，剛剛其實部長也有說到，租屋補貼從50萬戶已經提高到75萬戶了，之前在審國土管理業務預算的時候，被藍、白刪掉了1.4億，然後凍結了41億，我認為這是非常嚴重的一件事情，所以其實之前有試算過，如果真的照這樣子刪下去、凍下去，租金補貼是會嚴重受到影響的。可不可以請部長在這邊說明一下，補助租戶的數字以及租金的金額，是不是真的都會受到影響？"],["劉部長世芳：對，未來的方案，到底是降低它的核定件數，或者是降低已經核定的個別的租金，目前我們仍然在研議當中，但是我們仍然不希望朝這方面發展。就像黃委員所說的，因為申請租金補貼的年輕族群真的非常多，不管是單身或是就學，或者是就業，或者是有學齡前兒童的家庭，這個是我們比較關心的部分。所以這個部分也是拜託委員可以在立法院裡面多多幫忙，包括刪跟凍的部分，千萬不要去動到租金補貼的部分。"],["黃委員捷：唉！我們能幫的都幫了，覆議案也被否決了啊！只是說接下來如果可以儘快解凍的話，當然也是希望可以儘快解凍，不要去影響年輕人租金的權益。","再來回到今天的主題，其實剛剛前面很多委員都有提到了，租屋市場目前資訊不對稱的問題還是蠻嚴重的，所以我還是希望未來可以更公平，然後更透明，這個是大家都想要做到的。我看了一下租金補貼，其實實價登錄，我認為是已經開始逐步有成效，我也想要另外肯定一件事情，是租金電價的部分，因為租金電價新制上路之後，確實對蠻多租客來說是一個福音。因為我自己過去也是十年的租屋族，也知道過去大家都有被收過1度5塊這種事情，新制上路之後，不能超過當期的平均電價，這件事情其實是對租客很重要的一個基本的權益。特別提到租金透明化這件事情，我想要講的是代管業，雖然你們說這個是民間對民間，我們政府端到底有沒有一些方式，就是我們跟代管業者來對，然後讓他們跟租客之間，讓租賃市場是可以更透明的。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我請我們司長來回應一下。"],["林代理司長家正：報告委員，代管業的部分，在現在包租代管的件數裡面，其實代管案件是占非常大的一個比例，因為很多房東沒有多餘的心思去做一些管理、一些修繕，現在我們也透過包租代管業者來協助我們房東，透過代管把這些空屋釋放出來，房客可以受到照顧，房東也可以輕鬆解決掉很多事情。"],["黃委員捷：對，但就我所知，因為代管業者其實不負責收租金嘛！所以變成租金大致的區間跟它的金額，其實就會變成是你們沒有辦法去管理、去介入的一個部分。"],["林代理司長家正：有關於代管案要不要實價登錄的部分，其實我們在去年有辦過一個座談，業者大概會有幾個顧慮，第一個，他沒有辦法掌握到租金的行情，因為他不一定會收租；第二個，房東有些不希望他的租金資訊透明揭示，所以如果要強制實價登錄，反而有些房東可能就連代管都不給業者來做代管……"],["黃委員捷：他會直接退出市場。"],["林代理司長家正：反而會讓整個市場更不……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這就是我很擔心的。"],["林代理司長家正：所以業者大概會有這些疑慮。"],["黃委員捷：我在想你們還能如何去協調業者，讓他們同時願意揭露某種程度的，可能是一個區間或者更細緻的，至少他可以提供基本的一個行情嘛，不要說很明確的數字，一步一步來，但是不能因為他們遇到困難，所以就都不管，這就是我希望你們解決的。"],["林代理司長家正：好，我們現在會就資訊的部分來做一個統計的處理，讓民眾可以透過相關其他的方式來知道租金的透明的行情。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託。另外一件事情，我想要講租屋品質，其實在我們住宅法裡面規定，申請政府的租屋補貼必須要符合第四十條訂的基本的居住水準，可是基本居住水準明文規定，都只有提到應該要符合多少的面積大小，並沒有提到安全性的部分。其實我們現在租屋的市場裡面獨立的套房跟雅房，房東可能又把它分割成很多小的房間，然後安全跟消防可能是有疑慮的這種，並沒有放在基本居住水準裡面。也就是雖然政府非常用心給大家300億去進行租屋補貼，可是因為基本的居住水準裡面沒有提到相關的安全部分，也就是雅房出租的時候，他一樣可以跟你們申請補貼，可是他可能沒有符合安全的需求。所以，我在這邊希望具體建議，基本居住水準裡面可不可以也去提一些安全性的需求，否則現在市場上很多這種雅房其實完全不符合消防安全的規定。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，的確我們當時在討論的時候，因為像面積或有些基本設施，因為各縣市的差異很大，所以當時我們也請地方政府是不是能夠就自己各縣市特殊的規格去開。委員剛剛提的安全的部分，我想這個建議是非常值得重視，我們回去也會去做討論，看是不是在某些方面給他這樣子的一個要求，但是相對若房東願意來加入的話，我們也納入到後續的修繕費補助裡面，把這些項目明文訂出來，這樣對雙方來講都是一個品質的提升。"],["黃委員捷：好，很棒，謝謝署長，我希望朝這方面來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159579","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159579","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc01f81826ab47f4d68be2be2b26df085f91d241b1dc2f5330545705032a5a81be55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:52:27 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還沒有人確認所以目前他二月份是1.58他就是要降價所以我只是要說這個物價的調漲絕對不會是像你想的那麼簡單一點多啦沒有啦 它是電價還有水價欸還有很多價錢欸 還有交通費用欸都算上去台鐵也要漲價所以很多加上去之後那個物價一定是會漲到不是你現在可以預估的狀況啦"},{"start":206.66,"end":227.945,"text":"其實大家回過頭來都還是在講一件事情啦就是希望說能夠減輕我們消費者的負擔可以還稅於1萬塊那第二個我跟組長請教一下因為之前卓院長有說因為行政院各部會有一些預算被凍結了所以要凍結地方的50%的補助那這個部分應該都是計劃型補助為主對不對"},{"start":232.745,"end":261.028,"text":"原則上是計劃性補助為主那計劃性補助因為有很多計劃都是之前核定而且是分年逐步在做那你把那個凍結之後呢很可能會影響到他的計劃的推行其實這個對地方來說是影響很大那當然我覺得主席長你們的意思是說因為立法院凍結了我很多部會的30%啊我被凍結了我又不知道能不能解凍所以我當然就先凍結你地方啊你們的邏輯是這樣嘛"},{"start":261.889,"end":269.353,"text":"不是啦委員我再跟您說明一下因為我們被刪減了939通案刪減那我們按照比例刪減之後刪減303那還有一個通案刪減636還沒有刪減那這個部分在刪減是有困難的所以這個部分"},{"start":278.078,"end":298.358,"text":"沒有人去刪地方的建設的這個部分嘛你們現在主要凍結地方的原因都是因為你們有一些預算被凍結了你覺得既然中央沒有解凍那怎麼可以先撥給地方呢這個跟刪減無關啦因為沒有人去刪減這些東西啦主要都是凍結嘛那凍結可以解凍啊"},{"start":299.039,"end":323.074,"text":"那現在我不知道說主講這邊為什麼有一些解凍你可以先做嘛當然有的你會講說因為有的部會被凍結30%我怎麼知道什麼時候會用到30%可是不是這樣啊前置作業可以先做啊就像總預算總預算你這八月送到立法院可是你三四月開始作業了嘛所以其實這件事情我相信啦如果說你的預算是用在補助地方"},{"start":323.934,"end":337.148,"text":"大家不會去不願意解凍一定很快就解凍了所以我希望說主計長是不是可以趕快針對這個部分否則的話你會影響到地方建設的推行我們會把這種建議轉達好不好 好 謝謝很快了 好 謝謝謝謝葉委員的質詢 下一位請徐心凌委員質詢"},{"start":355.161,"end":355.322,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1265,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時52分）主席，麻煩請主計長，謝謝。"],["主席：陳主計長請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主計長，剛剛有聽你講，你預估物價指數在不考慮水電漲的情況之下，CPI是1.94%對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["葉委員元之：如果水電漲之後，你會預估多少？會破2%嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概，原則上還有其他一些變動的因素，如果一起考量，大概可能會超過2%。"],["葉委員元之：會超過2%？超過2%的話就是大概100塊、平均漲2塊的意思，對不對？但是主計長，我覺得一直講CPI，很多人聽起來會很不是滋味，為什麼呢？因為實際上大部分的人都外食，實際跟民生有關的，它的漲幅絕對不會只有2%。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["葉委員元之：我就舉一個今天才公告的，有些人滿喜歡吃的胖老爹，胖老爹今天公告，它的人氣商品雞排從85塊要漲到100塊，這絕對就不是漲2%，這漲多少了？這漲15%以上，雞腿54塊變60塊，是漲一成以上。所以實際上民眾一般比較常面對的民生性消費漲幅都不是2%，2%是怎麼算出來的？2%有時候會把一些電器、3C產品算進來，但那些東西本來擺久就會折舊，一旦折舊，物價就會下跌，所以這樣的平均，我覺得沒有辦法反映到人的真實心理狀態。其實剛剛我聽到非常多委員呼籲，希望主計長也可以支持，我們這一次稅收有超徵，另外我們也有一些預算，把關的部分有刪減，把這個部分還稅於民，一個人發1萬塊，讓大家心理上面比較可以因應物價上漲，我不知道主計長願意支持嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員報告，剛剛談到物價的問題，我們整個物價有三百四十幾項在做調查。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：然後民生物資比較相關重要的有17項，剛剛委員談到的大概就是所謂的外食費，外食費這個部分是比較偏高的。再來主要就是水果，水果是因為颱風的關係所以向上漲，但是現在它已經下降了，然後元月份它是2.66%，2月份是1.58%，重點元月份會比較高是因為過年的時候……"],["葉委員元之：主計長，你現在還沒有把電價因素算進來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：電價因素是還沒有放進來。"],["葉委員元之：對，電價因素算進來的話，漲得一定又更高了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["葉委員元之：而且很多東西都層層疊加上去。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為電價也還在討論，還沒有確認，所以目前2月份是1.58%，它是有下降。"],["葉委員元之：是，所以我只是要說物價的調漲絕對不會是像你講的一點多那麼簡單，沒有啦！它是電價，還有水價、還有很多價錢，還有交通費用耶。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我再跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：都算上去，臺鐵也要漲價了，所以很多都加上去之後，那個物價一定是會漲到不是你現在可以預估的狀況啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為之前是2.42%……"],["葉委員元之：其實大家回過頭來都還是在講一件事情，就是希望能夠減輕消費者的負擔，可以還稅於民1萬塊。第二個我跟主計長請教一下，之前卓院長有說因為行政院各部會有一些預算被凍結了，所以要凍結地方50%的補助，這個部分應該都是計畫型補助為主，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上是計畫型補助。"],["葉委員元之：計畫型補助為主？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["葉委員元之：是計畫型補助，因為有很多計畫都是之前核定，而且是分年逐步在做？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["葉委員元之：把那個凍結之後很可能會影響到計畫的推行，其實這個對地方來說是影響很大。主計長你們說，因為立法院凍結了很多部會30%的預算，被凍結了又不知道能不能解凍，所以當然就先凍結地方，你們的邏輯是這樣嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是啦！委員，我再跟你說明一下，因為我們被刪減了939億，通案刪減，我們按照比例刪減之後，刪減303億，還有一個通案刪減636億還沒有刪減，這個部分再刪減是有困難的，所以這個部分……"],["葉委員元之：主計長，再等一下，因為沒有人去刪地方建設這個部分，你們現在主要凍結地方的原因都是因為你們有一些預算被凍結了，你覺得既然中央沒有解凍，怎麼可以先撥給地方呢？這個跟刪減無關，因為沒有人去刪減這些東西啦！主要都是凍結，但凍結可以解凍啊！現在我不知道為什麼……主計長這邊有一些解凍可以先做，當然你會說因為有的部會被凍結30%，怎麼知道什麼時候會用到30%，可是不是這樣啊！你們前置作業可以先做啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們會先做，我們大部分會先報。"],["葉委員元之：就像總預算，總預算8月送到立法院，可是3、4月就開始作業了嘛！所以其實這件事情，我相信如果說這個預算是用在補助地方，大家不會不願意解凍，一定很快就解凍了，所以我希望主計長是不是可以趕快針對這個部分，否則的話你會影響到地方建設的推行。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會把這種建議轉達。"],["主席：好。"],["葉委員元之：好不好？儘快啦！"],["主席：謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員的質詢。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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部長今天是很多的自由住宅房屋稅2.0必須要房東要設戶籍的最後一天接下去有非常非常多的房東因為他可能要有特殊的希望稅負可以減少所以他會把戶口簽到可能空出來但是實際上租給人家的這些房屋裡面內政部有沒有什麼對策"},{"start":73.993,"end":96.269,"text":"向委員報告我們剛剛提到的第一個部分不能報戶口第二個不能申請租金補貼的部分那我們現在在租賃定型化契約裡面都規定用契約來規定所以房客問題是各位啊房客就是因為礙於不想搬家不想被趕走他也不會去檢舉所以你這個方法有跟沒有一樣"},{"start":97.406,"end":116.827,"text":"所以部長 我想兩件事啦第一件事情 簽戶口這件事情大概目前也沒什麼解逐漸補貼 我們已經不需要相關的房東同意了第三個就是扣除了的列舉這個部分從相關的規範裡面看得出來有兩成的人不知道有五成的人不敢報"},{"start":118.479,"end":146.338,"text":"其實你有這麼多的規定他為什麼還是不敢報因為他不想得罪他的房東就這麼簡單所以部長你認為我們給了這麼多為什麼還是會有黑市為什麼這個黑市沒有辦法往前走其實我們給了他很多的稅服優惠其實我們給了他租金補貼甚至他可以去把他的地價稅房屋稅甚至他的中所稅成為公益出租人都可以優惠你認為他們為什麼還是不願意來當公益出租人"},{"start":148.035,"end":166.34,"text":"我先回一下好向委員報告一下有關於戶籍的部分的話如果搬遷後我要問你說他為什麼還是不願意來當公益出租人嗎應該還是我們知道大概普遍房東還是care稅的問題為什麼因為稅嘛講對了好部長還有建復稅署在現場我們給他的房屋稅優惠地價稅優惠中鎖稅的優惠都不足以讓他有誘因來成為公益出租人原因是什麼"},{"start":175.859,"end":193.417,"text":"是因為他在將來交易房屋的時候的那個稅額才是真正他所care的第一個叫做房地合一稅房地合一稅他必須要在交易前六年沒有出租的行為另外一個是土地增值稅一生一次的自用住宅優惠他要在出售一年前沒有出租"},{"start":194.278,"end":209.231,"text":"包括公益出租第三還有一生一物的出售前五年沒有提供營業使用或出租這兩個稅制是把所有的房東卡在那邊他不願意來成為公益出租人不願意讓他的房客去申請租金補貼最大的問題負稅署是吧因為我曾經出租過所以我交易的時候就喪失了所謂交易稅的優惠這才是大錢啊"},{"start":221.158,"end":244.304,"text":"今天內政部如果真的要處理租屋黑市要處理租屋黑市的就是找財政部好好討論一下今天我們真的做了公益出租人我們在他交易的時候他也有一定的優惠現在為止沒有耶他到了公益出租人他沒有任何交易上的好處他為什麼要來當公益出租人部長你了解我的意思嗎我了解是 你要不要在麥克風前面講"},{"start":245.936,"end":260.519,"text":"但是委員所垂詢的部分所以您社會部長你要跟財政部來好好商量這件事您大致上就是在強調有關於在稅賦上面對於公益出租人並沒有任何的好處那我們內政部要跟財政部來多做協調"},{"start":261.62,"end":285.532,"text":"讓他知道說當公益出租人他有這樣的好處你要管的是國內的住宅市場你如果說服沒有辦法達到剛剛講的一些方式就不會有人理你的住宅政策你永遠解決不了租屋黑市部長這才是我的問題如果內政不是住宅法的主管機關租屋黑市是你的任務說服他們是政策的工具而已"},{"start":286.132,"end":304.881,"text":"目標是我們要讓租屋黑市真正能夠揭開來它讓所有的房東都願意來當中醫出租人今天的問題是唷,我一個數字很有趣喔租金補貼121年度核定了27萬件他真正跑去申請租剛剛講的房屋稅、地價稅優惠的人只有11萬"},{"start":306.121,"end":333.396,"text":"也就是說租姓補貼我們付了27萬戶結果只有11萬戶的人願意告訴政府說我是公益出租人我來減免我的房屋稅跟地價稅有一半以上的人連報都不願意報這才是問題我們的確我們已經不拿來查所得稅了他還是不願意報今天內政部要做的事財政部如果房地合一稅跟土地增值稅沒有處理的話我相信這個屋主會是永遠沒有辦法解決"},{"start":334.724,"end":343.075,"text":"部長你們跟財政部是不是要開始至少現在從現在起要對租屋黑市的處理"},{"start":344.158,"end":364.983,"text":"往前進一步報告委員其實我們有商量過有協調過這個部分但是財政部的立場跟內政部不太一樣是財政部永遠都不願意減稅所以你們的問題是你們要請院長出來變成你們的政策如果假設一個國家的政策兩個是相互矛盾的你這個政策永遠推不動"},{"start":366.867,"end":390.305,"text":"矛盾的政策是永遠推不動的所以部長我希望一個月內告訴我們你們做了哪些努力第二個財政部永遠不願意減稅我相信但是很簡單你如果有公益出租人大家願意來做我相信中華民國是可以朝向朱惠勢可以慢慢的降稅委員不好意思那個一個月可能時間有點短可不可以讓我們多一點的時間來跟財政部這邊來做一個反應和討論那就兩個月"},{"start":394.988,"end":420.583,"text":"報告委員那個五月的時候是報稅期那你如果現在對如果你現在現在匆忙說要做任何決定的話可能對於財政部也不是那麼完全我同意啦就是不管怎樣要開始做我們在盡量如果租屋業是這麼久了都用這麼多方法都沒有用你要去追根究柢最後的問題中益出租人在在中華民國政府的眼睛中到底是什麼好嗎"},{"start":422.422,"end":447.963,"text":"兩個月給我一個初步的答案我沒有一定要你馬上有答案但是你至少要開始做三個月啦我沒有跟你那個argue這個時間我剛剛提到了就是說因為五月是報稅的這個熱季啊好三個月讓他能夠這兩個稅額必須要有一個檢查稅負馬上在五月六月做一個很大的更動的話對報稅人也是不是很公平沒有要現在做啊至少開始做好嗎三個月內我希望可以給本席一個完美的答覆好謝謝主席"},{"start":451.195,"end":453.671,"text":"谢谢好谢谢黄三三"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":977,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時14分）謝謝主席，我請劉部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：還有賦稅署。"],["主席：有請賦稅署倪麗心副署長。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位好。部長，今天大家都非常關心所謂的住宅政策，尤其是租屋。租屋市場裡面有很嚴重的問題，就是我們現在的房客有三大痛苦，第一個痛苦是沒辦法入戶口；第二個是沒有辦法申請租金補貼，雖然法律上可以保障他不用經過房東同意；第三個痛苦是他沒有辦法去申報所謂的列舉扣除額。","部長，今天是很多的自有住宅房屋稅2.0必須要……房東要設戶籍的最後一天，接下去有非常非常多的房東，因為他可能有特殊的……希望稅賦可以減少，所以他會把戶口遷到空出來的，但是實際上租給人家的這些房屋裡面，內政部有沒有什麼對策？"],["劉部長世芳：請地政司回答一下。"],["林代理司長家正：向委員報告，委員剛剛提到的第一個部分不能報戶口；第二個不能申請租金補貼的部分，我們現在在租賃定型化契約裡面都規定……"],["黃委員珊珊：有契約來規定？所以房客……"],["林代理司長家正：房客不能……"],["黃委員珊珊：各位啊，房客就是因為礙於不想搬家，不想被趕走，他也不會去檢舉，所以你這個方法有跟沒有一樣。所以部長，兩件事，第一件事情，遷戶口這件事情目前大概也沒什麼解；租金補貼的部分我們已經不需要相關的房東同意了；第三個就是扣除額的列舉，這個部分從相關的規範裡面看得出來，有兩成的人不知道，有五成的人不敢報，即使你有這麼多的規定，他為什麼還是不敢報？因為他不想得罪他的房東，就這麼簡單。","所以部長認為我們給了這麼多，為什麼還是會有黑市？為什麼這個黑市沒有辦法往前走？即使我們給了他很多的稅負優惠，即使我們給了他租金補貼，甚至他的地價稅、房屋稅，甚至綜所稅，成為公益出租人後都可以優惠，你認為他們為什麼還是不願意來當公益出租人？"],["林代理司長家正：向委員報告，有關於戶籍部分的話，如果搬遷以後……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要問你，他為什麼還是不願意來當公益出租人嘛！"],["林代理司長家正：應該還是……我們知道大概普遍房東還是care稅的問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼？因為稅嘛！講對了！部長，今天還有賦稅署在現場，我們給他的房屋稅優惠、地價稅優惠、綜所稅的優惠都不足以讓他有誘因來成為公益出租人，其原因是什麼？是因為他將來交易房屋時的稅額才是他真正所care的，第一個叫做房地合一稅，他必須要在交易前6年沒有出租的行為；另外一個是土地增值稅，一生一次的自用住宅優惠，他要在出售1年前沒有出租，包括公益出租；第三，還有出售前5年沒有提供營業使用或出租，這兩個稅制就把所有的房東卡在那邊，讓他不願意來成為公益出租人，不願意讓他的房客去申請租金補貼，這是最大的問題，賦稅署是吧？因為我曾經出租過，所以我交易的時候就喪失了所謂交易稅的優惠，這才是大錢。","今天內政部如果真的要處理租屋黑市，就是找財政部好好討論一下，今天我們真的做了公益出租人，我們在他交易的時候，他也有一定的優惠，但到現在為止沒有耶！他當了公益出租人，他沒有任何交易上的好處，他為什麼要來當公益出租人？部長了解我的意思嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，你要不要在麥克風前面講？"],["劉部長世芳：但是委員所垂詢的部分，大致上……"],["黃委員珊珊：你身為部長，你要跟財政部好好商量這件事。"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，您大致上就是在強調有關於在稅負上面，對於公益出租人並沒有任何好處，我們內政部要跟財政部來多做協調，讓他知道當公益出租人有這樣的好處。"],["黃委員珊珊：你要管的是國內的住宅市場……"],["劉部長世芳：對，但稅負是在財政部。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，如果稅負沒有辦法達到剛剛講的那些方式，就不會有人理你的住宅政策，你永遠解決不了租屋黑市，部長，這才是我的問題。如果內政部是住宅法的主管機關，租屋黑市是你的任務，稅負是政策的工具而已，目標是我們要讓租屋黑市真正能夠揭開來，讓所有的房東都願意來當公益出租人。","今天的問題是……有一個數字很有趣，租金補貼111年度核定了27萬件，真正跑去申請剛剛講的房屋稅、地價稅優惠的人只有11萬，也就是說租金補貼我們付了27萬戶，結果只有11萬戶的人願意告訴政府他是公益出租人，來減免他的房屋稅跟地價稅，有一半以上的人連報都不願意報，這才是問題，的確我們已經不拿來查所得稅了，他還是不願意報。今天內政部要做的是跟財政部……如果房地合一稅跟土地增值稅沒有處理的話，我相信這個租屋黑市永遠沒有辦法解決，部長，你們跟財政部是不是要開始，至少從現在起，要對租屋黑市的處理往前進一步？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實我們有商量過，也有協調過這個部分，但是財政部的立場跟內政部不太一樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，財政部永遠都不願意減稅啦！所以你們的問題是你們要請院長出來，變成你們的政策，假設一個國家的政策，兩個是相互矛盾的，你這個政策永遠推不動，矛盾的政策是永遠推不動的，所以部長，我希望一個月內告訴我們，你們做了哪些努力。第二個財政部永遠不願意減稅，但是很簡單，你如果有公益出租人，大家願意來做，我相信中華民國的租屋黑市是可以慢慢的降低。"],["林代理司長家正：委員不好意思，一個月可能時間有點短，可不可以讓我們有多一點的時間來跟財政部反映和討論？"],["黃委員珊珊：那就兩個月？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，5月的時候是報稅期，你如果現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：他們很忙。"],["劉部長世芳：對，如果你現在匆忙說要做任何決定，可能對於財政部也不是那麼……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意啦！不管怎樣，就是要開始做……"],["劉部長世芳：是不是給我們多一點時間，我們再儘量往這方面來處理？"],["黃委員珊珊：如果租屋黑市這麼久了，用這麼多方法都沒有用，你要去追根究柢最後的問題，公益出租人在中華民國政府的眼睛中到底是什麼，好嗎？兩個月給我一個初步的答案，我沒有一定要你馬上有答案，但是你至少要開始做。"],["劉部長世芳：三個月啦！我沒有跟你argue這個時間，我剛剛提到了，因為5月是報稅的熱季，我們要讓他能夠……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，三個月，這兩個稅額必須要有一個檢討。"],["劉部長世芳：稅負馬上在5月、6月做一個很大的更動的話，對報稅人也不是很公平。"],["黃委員珊珊：你沒有要現在做，至少開始做，好嗎？三個月內，我希望可以給本席一個完美的答復，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢。","下一位我們請羅明才委員，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc034980d0ed19b5c748313c4daf57d80ad1d241b1dc2f53305e389c4a505309a2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:44:43 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邀請部長"},{"start":21.74,"end":35.824,"text":"我們來討論租賃市場透明化的議題台灣的房屋高價許多人都要依靠租賃的方式來生活租賃市場都以個人出租的形態為主"},{"start":36.944,"end":55.975,"text":"而房東隱匿收入或者是租屋事實等也就是租屋的黑市這個現象一直存在哪怕不僅影響到補貼資源的一個效果也對政府在掌控整個資訊以及政策管理會有嚴重的影響"},{"start":57.176,"end":75.173,"text":"那租屋民眾的權益就會深深受害所以本席在這邊請教部長去年有民團及我們立委提出不只是包租也要納入貸款將補貼等政府已經掌控的租屋的資訊都納入租屋實價登錄"},{"start":76.454,"end":92.924,"text":"那請教部長您對於這個論點的看法謝謝委員的關心在去年開始我們內政部已經有先後兩次公佈所謂的這個行政區裡面的這個租金的部分那這個其實已經有含掛了我們現在租屋市場規模的六成"},{"start":93.804,"end":108.588,"text":"那其他的事成呢其實它有些困擾是因為民法上面的這個個資的部分或者是說因為有短期租約的影響所以呢對於租金是不是有如實來登錄所謂的實價登錄是如實來登錄房東也好或是租客也好都會有這個困難所以我們在公權力行政上面不容易去處理這一塊那但是我們還會有其他的經濟措施譬如說我們還是一樣每一年會公佈兩次"},{"start":122.431,"end":148.759,"text":"這樣子只要是公權力可以處理的包括社宅或是包括租金補貼的部分慢慢都會把這個往這方面精進那同時我們對於這個包租代管業者啊如果他能夠掌握到這方面資訊的話希望他能夠回饋讓我們在做統計上面最好的分工那如果我們所有的這樣子的一個租金補貼可以對外公佈的話那表示在那一區那個生活圈有那個道路上面會有定毛的效果"},{"start":149.399,"end":161.808,"text":"讓很多想要成豬的尤其是弱勢的經濟的這個租客族群呢可以知道說其實我要的房型差不多就是這樣子的一個租金價格然後不會上當跟受騙這就是我們現在主要的方向這個也就是特別我們要勉勵啊這個精進的方案繼續加油"},{"start":167.372,"end":193.503,"text":"因為我們一定要讓我們這些青年孩子也好或者是比較弱勢的朋友他都能夠得到一個居住正義的一個安全性這是非常重要 繼續加油接下來本席跟你討論租屋屯房討落稅的問題我們知道財政部查核五戶以上屯房的包租工有超過五成是討落稅"},{"start":194.463,"end":205.693,"text":"租屋市場的經濟地下化還是很嚴重所以因此針對於租屋主的一個權益居住正義呢嚴重的來受損所以本席要請教請教部長那我們除了尋覓機制鼓勵合法這個房東來申報財政部"},{"start":214.14,"end":229.805,"text":"擴大的來稽查之外那我們還有什麼精進的方案配套呢能夠減少這樣類似的問題同時是否你支持修法來有一個有所本的一個方案呢請教"},{"start":230.745,"end":248.519,"text":"我是不是先請財政部的同仁來回答一下您的部分他們是查緝的部分跟委員報告針對房東的部分我們鼓勵房東參與這個社會住宅或是公益出租人來享受我們的租稅結面然後對於這個陰森報然後有逃漏稅的房東我們會加強查緝那財政部近幾年都有加強查緝這個個人房東的部分"},{"start":254.904,"end":275.438,"text":"好謝謝財政部的回答因為財政部你的角色就是查緝跟鼓勵那請教部長那但是我們現在這麼做目前的樣態是如此那我們要怎麼樣精進因為它還是存在的這個問題請說明我是不是先請我們市長跟您回應一下我再來做政策上面的處理"},{"start":276.062,"end":304.421,"text":"跟委員報告一下在這個部分的話其實我們的部分是用鼓勵的方式因為第一個部分包含到社會住宅或是我們租金補貼的愛心房對這個非常重要社會住宅跟你們補貼的這個項目還有包含到我們一般的包租代管其實我們現行的規定都有相關的一個地價稅所得稅還有房屋稅的優惠那我們鼓勵房東透過這些稅優也參加我們那個公益出租人的行列"},{"start":305.081,"end":324.278,"text":"謝謝市長你的說明喔 部長剛剛財政部跟您的市長所說明目前他們有動作但是還是呈現這樣的問題我們要怎麼樣去精進請教部長謝謝委員的關心我想我們現在目前在處理的部分呢確實沒有辦法滿足所有的租客"},{"start":325.138,"end":347.258,"text":"他們所要的資訊所以我們現在是用鼓勵跟引導的方式鼓勵跟引導的方式如果有任何違法的部分其實可以看得出來財政部也好或是內政部也有一定的懲罰措施可是我們要確定的一點就是說目前尤其是六都六都裡面租屋市場是以房東為主"},{"start":348.499,"end":352.42,"text":"如果他認為說我們採取比較大的重罰然後減少這個租屋市場的釋出的話反而會租金會上漲這個他是一個不平衡的狀態那我們為了要穩健的方式的話就盡量讓他能夠朝著能夠告訴我們怎麼租金上面的這個不管是處理的方面盡量透明化那同時我們也要找包"},{"start":372.365,"end":386.909,"text":"您所謂的透明化這個就是重點我們要怎麼樣去協助這一些的租屋者我相信這也是你的職責那精進的方案你再去精進最後一個議題我們來討論本席非常非常的強調看到有這個數字出來"},{"start":392.91,"end":415.404,"text":"台灣已成為過勞之島 七天假何時要還給勞工部長 台灣在2023年的時候我們的年總工時已經達到2000年20小時成為全球主要國家中的第五高也是在亞洲國家中的第二高 僅次於新加坡那近三年我們的工時也不斷地在增加台灣已經成為過勞之島"},{"start":418.045,"end":437.994,"text":"減少工時的有效方法就是把過去砍的七天假還給勞工那這一次本席也有提案所以部長您上週有回答說反對修法您的理由是說稱社會尚無共識不宜倉促立法那現在您的立場呢"},{"start":439.315,"end":456.332,"text":"報告委員我想這樣子太籠統了第一個就是說內政部現在只有一個紀念日跟節日的一個實施辦法它不是一個法律案那你要變成一個法律案的話我知道我們現在委員大概有27種提案但是要放假的日數是高達31天"},{"start":458.334,"end":472.291,"text":"那所以變成是沒有共識不是社會沒有共識那我們也都知道說現在有一些勞動的朋友會覺得說他現在的工時過長但是工時過長的解決放在假日的處理辦法是不是一個好的辦法"},{"start":473.132,"end":493.766,"text":"因為我上次有提過你把它放在紀念日跟假日的時事辦變成把它提高變成法律慰藉的時候譬如說我們去年是一百一十五天明年是一百一十六天的放假日但是後年如果變成一百一十七天那你法律案要不要跟著修正就是說我勞動節放假或者是說我教師節放假或者是我這個客家的這個天川日放假"},{"start":504.173,"end":523.042,"text":"如果你放假天數會增加或減少的時候你的法律就要跟著再修正那修正送到立法院裡面是一個比較冗長的程序因為立法委員除了委員會還有院會要表達所以我的意思是說我們不要把放假日與否要增加與否放到我們的假日跟紀念日這兩個"},{"start":525.364,"end":531.492,"text":"這個名詞裡面去處理就是說我到底全部總工時要多少回歸到跟勞動基準法相關那邊來討論我們不會反對而且是尊重勞動部的意見還好你最後說了我們不會反對"},{"start":539.802,"end":554.778,"text":"因为劳动部长洪森汉他认为有讨论的空间行政总处的人事长呢苏俊龙先生也说他不反对劳动节变全国的放假日他不反对"},{"start":555.419,"end":559.901,"text":"那我要請教喔你也擔任過立法委員你剛才講的也非常的清楚喔所以為什麼內閣的態度部委首長是不一致我把這個功課給你我也希望我們這個二名能夠好好的"},{"start":571.625,"end":587.817,"text":"去改善之這非常的重要我們也讓社會大眾來公允那我們也希望在立法院可以討論出一個方向也希望得到你的支持讓我們這一切的修法能夠通過讓我們台灣是全世界第五個過勞的國家我們把這個惡名抹殺掉謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時45分）謝謝主席，邀請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們來討論租賃市場透明化的議題，臺灣的房屋高價，許多人都要依靠租賃方式來生活，租賃市場多以個人出租的型態為主，而房東隱匿收入或租屋事實等租屋黑市現象一直存在，不僅影響到補貼資源的效果，也對政府掌控整個資訊以及政策管理有嚴重的影響，租屋民眾的權益也會深深受害。所以本席在這邊請教部長，去年有民團及立委提出不只是包租，也要納入代管，將補貼等政府已經掌控的租屋資訊都納入租屋實價登錄，請教部長對於這個論點的看法？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，從去年開始內政部已經有先後兩次公布行政區裡面的租金部分，其實這已經有含括現在租屋市場規模的六成，其他的四成會有一些困擾是因為民法上對於個資的部分，或是短期租約的影響，所以對於租金是不是有如實登錄，所謂的實價登錄是如實登錄，但這對房東也好或租客也好都會有困難，我們的公權力在行政上面不容易去處理這一塊。但是我們還會有其他的精進措施，譬如，我們還是會每一年公布兩次，只要是公權力可以處理的部分，包括社宅或租金補貼，慢慢都會往這方面精進。同時，對於包租代管業者，如果它能夠掌握到這方面資訊的話，也希望它能夠回饋給我們，讓我們在統計上面做到最好的分工。如果我們所有的租金補貼可以對外公布的話，表示在那一區、那個生活圈的道路上面會有定錨效果，這樣可以讓很多想要承租的，尤其是經濟弱勢的租客族群知道，其實他想要承租的房型差不多就是這樣的租金價格，他也不會上當、受騙，這是我們現在主要的方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：讓他們有所本，這也就是我們要特別勉勵精進的方案，繼續加油。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一定要讓這些青年孩子或是比較弱勢的朋友都能夠得到一個居住正義的安全性，這是非常重要，繼續加油。","接下來，本席要跟你討論租屋囤房逃漏稅的問題。我們知道財政部查核5戶以上囤房的包租公，有超過五成逃漏稅，租屋市場的經濟地下化還是很嚴重，使租屋族權益、居住正義嚴重受損。本席要請教部長，除了尋覓機制，鼓勵合法的房東申報，以及財政部擴大稽查之外，還有什麼精進的方案、配套能夠減少類似的問題？同時，請教你是否支持修法取得一個有所本的方案呢？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是先請財政部的同仁來回答一下這個部分？然後我們再來回應。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，他們是查緝的部分。"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，針對房東的部分，我們鼓勵房東參與社會住宅或是公益出租人來享受我們的租稅減免，而對於應申報或有逃漏稅的房東，我們會加強查緝，財政部近幾年都有加強查緝個人房東的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝財政部的回答，因為財政部的角色就是查緝跟鼓勵。請教部長，我們現在這麼做，目前的樣態是如此，可是我們要怎麼樣精進，因為還是存在這個問題，請說明。"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是先請我們司長跟您回應一下，我再來做政策上面的答復。"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告，在這個部分其實我們是用鼓勵的方式，第一個部分包含社會住宅或是租金補貼的愛心房東、公益出租人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這個非常重要，社會住宅和你們補貼的項目非常重要。"],["林代理司長家正：還有包含一般的包租代管，其實現行規定都有地價稅、所得稅以及房屋稅的相關優惠，我們鼓勵房東透過這些稅優參加公益出租人的行列。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝司長的說明。部長，就剛剛財政部和司長所說明的，目前他們有動作，但是還是呈現這樣的問題，請教部長，我們要怎麼樣去精進？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，我們目前在處理的部分確實沒有辦法滿足所有租客所要的資訊，我們現在是用鼓勵和引導的方式，如果有任何違法的部分，其實可以看得出來，財政部也好或是內政部也有一定的懲罰措施。可是我們要確定的一點就是，目前尤其是六都的租屋市場是以房東為主，如果我們採取比較大的重罰，減少租屋市場的釋出的話，反而會造成租金上漲，這是一個不平衡的狀態。我們為了要以穩健的方式，就是儘量讓它能夠朝著告訴我們租金的狀況，在處理方面儘量透明化。同時，我們也要找包租代管……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你所謂的透明化就是重點，我們要怎麼樣去協助這些租屋者，我相信這也是你的職責，你再去精進方案。","我們來討論最後一個議題，本席要非常強調，因為我已經有看到數字出來，臺灣已成為過勞之島，7天假何時要還給勞工？部長，臺灣2023年的年總工時已經達到2,020小時，成為全球主要國家中的第五高，也是亞洲國家中的第二高，僅次於新加坡。近三年我們的工時也不斷地在增加，臺灣已經成為過勞之島，減少工時的有效方法就是把過去砍的7天假還給勞工。","這一次本席也有提案，部長上週的回答是反對修法，你的理由是社會尚無共識，不宜倉促立法，現在你的立場呢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想這樣子太籠統了，第一個，內政部現在只有一個紀念日及節日實施辦法，它不是一個法律案，要變成法律案的話，我知道現在委員大概有27種提案，但是要放假的日數高達31天，所以變成沒有共識，不是社會沒有共識。我們也都知道有一些勞動朋友會覺得他現在的工時過長，但是工時過長的解決放在假日的處理辦法，是不是一個好的方法？因為我上次有提過，放在紀念日及節日實施辦法，把它提高變成法律位階的時候，譬如，我們去年的放假日是115天，明年是116天，但是後年如果變成117天，那法律案要不要跟著修正？勞動節放假、教師節放假、客家的天穿日放假或者是原住民的歲時祭儀放假，把它固定化下來的話，下一次如果放假天數增加或減少的時候，法律就要跟著再修正，修正案送到立法院裡面是一個比較冗長的程序，因為立法委員除了委員會，還有院會要表達。我的意思是，我們不要把放假日要增加與否，放到假日和紀念日這兩個名詞裡面去處理，全部的總工時到底要多少就回歸到相關的勞動基準法來討論，我們不會反對，而且是尊重勞動部的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你最後說了我們不會反對，因為勞動部長洪申翰認為有討論的空間，行政總處人事長蘇俊榮先生也說，他不反對勞動節變全國的放假日。我就要請教，你也擔任過立法委員，你剛剛講得也非常地清楚，所以為什麼內閣的態度、部會首長是不一致，我把這個功課給你，我也希望這個惡名能夠好好地去改善之，這非常地重要，我們也讓社會大眾來公允，也希望在立法院可以討論出一個方向、也希望得到你的支持，讓我們這一次的修法能夠通過，將臺灣是全世界第五名過勞國家的惡名抹殺掉，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","下一位我們請鄭天財委員質詢。鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","下一位我們請鄭正鈐委員質詢。鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0931acaf148bf06c9be2be2b26df085f91d241b1dc2f53305123a4db8f526838d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 有請主席長委員好主席長好 辛苦了這個是3月23號在花蓮的一個媒體就是這樣寫主席長 媒體就這樣寫"},{"start":24.161,"end":42.716,"text":"主計長陳淑芝也都到場助長除強調中央被煽動的預算也要大家罷免國民黨立法院總召傅坤祺所以這個部分這是民進黨去辦的所以身為主計長你應該去評估"},{"start":44.639,"end":67.7,"text":"你現在已經是成為中華民國的主席長第一個去參加政黨辦的一個宣講所以要審慎報告委員 我們是針對政策來宣講其他語言大部分我們也不會聽沒有錯 但是這個畢竟是一個政黨的場合我是建議你了好 我們看今天的議題"},{"start":69.261,"end":80.824,"text":"今年全國實增進額大於付稅預算的情形從2010年一直到2023年尤其是這幾年都超增稅收"},{"start":83.55,"end":98.511,"text":"所以今天特別審查這個預算法的修正,希望修法明定,法定付稅,收入實徵數大於預算數三千億以上,政府應還稅一名,普發現金。"},{"start":99.693,"end":122.37,"text":"那如果這個法例通過以後就不必再這個還要去另外訂一個特別條例那到時候看要用最佳預算的方式還是什麼多很多的一個途徑所以這個部分呢希望這個政府部門主計總署和財政部能夠支持好我們看這個"},{"start":125.712,"end":152.42,"text":"電價審議委員會最近要審議要漲電價大家都很擔心因為這幾年連續漲了四次但是事實上如果我們以總統府賴總統親自聘任的氣候變遷委員會副召集人童子賢 何壽董事長他說核電可以年省N個千億"},{"start":154.278,"end":181.112,"text":"N個千億如果按照他的說法是15個千億所以這個部分是一個能源政策的問題所以主席總署也應該提供給台電提供給經濟部相關的這些意見所以這個部分到底我們很擔心呢人民都很擔心所以如果從法律面來看從法律面的話"},{"start":182.659,"end":200.386,"text":"法例離島建設條例第十四條有規定,撥補給台電,因為省金門、馬祖、澎湖離島、蘭嶼還有立島,這些應該由政府、中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":202.087,"end":227.225,"text":"編列預算也就是經濟部應該編列預算撥補所以從這邊來去處理而不要再去漲漲電價到時候如果經濟部或是主席總書也可以去協調這個經濟部來照這個法例好我們接下來談這個原住民委員會編列的基本設施維持費跟主席講說明"},{"start":228.858,"end":238.407,"text":"這個基本設施維持費是我在園民會服務的時候我去協調當時的主計總署行政院主計總署"},{"start":240.066,"end":259.589,"text":"那時候是張俊雄當任行政院院長的時候要編列這個基本設施維持費謝謝當時的主計總署同意編列就開始編列了這個是一個最基本的原鄉很需要的所以它相關的經費額度都有"},{"start":260.65,"end":279.056,"text":"已經一百一十四年度來講,編列了六億四千萬元。這個已經立法院通過了,沒有刪,也沒有凍結。現在為什麼要談這個呢?現在是不是要請主席長、主席總書要跟人民會講,不應該發這樣的文啊。"},{"start":282.268,"end":304.026,"text":"去年的時候 大家都知道會行文給各縣市 鄉鎮你要先義為編列預算你要編多少 去年就已經分配了結果2月27號 延命會竟然發文給各鄉鎮各鄉鎮就覺得 延鄉就覺得很奇怪怎麼會被砍了50%啊"},{"start":308.487,"end":313.126,"text":"事實上基本設施維持費第一個沒有刪減"},{"start":314.605,"end":332.889,"text":"沒有凍結所以這個部分的協調主席總署趕快請主席總署趕快協調嚴密會趕快發文好不好好謝謝主席長可以嗎這個部分是院長有發布院長有發布說是要凍結計劃型補助50%那這個部分是因為我們有一個3.636的這個部分所以這個部分我們是需要再協調這個部分到底是要怎麼三減是這樣子"},{"start":344.332,"end":344.512,"text":"這個並沒有凍結"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1247,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時46分）主席、各位委員。有請主計長。"],["主席：陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長好，辛苦了。這個是3月23號花蓮的一個媒體的報導，主計長，媒體就是這樣寫：主計長陳淑姿也都到場助講，除強調中央被刪凍的預算，也要大家罷免國民黨立法院總召傅崐萁。關於這個部分，這是民進黨去辦的，身為主計長，你應該去評估，你現在已經成為中華民國第一個去參加政黨辦的宣講的主計長，所以要審慎，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我們是針對政策來宣講。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，但是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：其他語言大部分我們也不會……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有錯，但是這畢竟是一個政黨的場合，我是建議你啦。好，我們來看今天的議題。近年全國實徵淨額大於賦稅預算數的情形，從2010年一直到2023年，尤其是這幾年都超徵稅收，所以今天特別審查預算法的修正，希望修法明定法定賦稅收入實徵數大於預算數3,000億以上，政府應還稅於民、普發現金。如果這個法律通過，以後就不必再另外訂一個特別條例，到時候看是要用追加預算的方式還是什麼，有很多途徑，這個部分希望政府部門、主計總處或財政部能夠支持。","此外，電價審議委員會最近要審議漲電價，大家都很擔心，因為這幾年連續漲了4次。但是事實上，總統府賴總統親自聘任的氣候變遷委員會副召集人、和碩董事長童子賢，他說核電可以年省N個千億。如果按照他的說法是15個千億，所以這個部分是一個能源政策的問題，主計總處也應該提供給台電，提供給經濟部相關的這些意見。這個部分我們很擔心，人民都很擔心。從法律面來看，法律離島建設條例第十四條有規定撥補給台電，因為金門、馬祖、澎湖等離島、蘭嶼還有綠島，這些應該由政府中央目的事業主管機關編列預算，也就是經濟部應該編列預算撥補，所以從這邊來處理，而不要再去漲電價，到時候經濟部或是主計總處也可以協調經濟部照這個法律去做。","我們接下來談原住民族委員會編列的基本設施維持費。跟主計長說明，基本設施維持費是我在原民會服務的時候，去協調當時的主計總處──行政院主計總處，那時候是張俊雄擔任行政院院長的時候，要編列基本設施維持費。謝謝當時的主計總處同意編列，就開始編列了。這是最基本的，是原鄉很需要的，所以相關的經費額度都有。以114年度來講，編列了六億四千萬元，立法院已經通過了，沒有刪，也沒有凍結，現在為什麼要談這個呢？現在是不是要請主計總處跟原民會講，不應該發這樣的文？去年的時候大家都知道會行文給各縣市、鄉鎮，要先預為編列預算，要編多少，去年就已經分配了，結果2月27號原民會竟然發文給各鄉鎮，各鄉鎮原鄉就覺得很奇怪，怎麼會被砍了50%？事實上，基本設施維持費，第一個沒有刪減、沒有凍結！所以這個部分請主計總處趕快協調原民會，趕快發文好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長？"],["主席：可以吧？簡答就好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有刪、沒有凍結。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分院長有發布說是要凍結計畫型補助50%，這個部分是因為我們有一個刪減636億的部分，所以這個部分我們需要再協調，這個部分到底是要怎麼刪減，是這樣子。"],["主席：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，這個並沒有凍結、並沒有刪減，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝，私底下再說明好了。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","陳培瑜、陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","葉元之委員請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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帶動萬物飆漲你能不能給一點老百姓一點好的消息就是普發現金一萬啊"},{"start":365.902,"end":383.161,"text":"今天來得及吧我記得上次討論那個六千塊普發現金的時候也沒幾個月就發下來了啊上次從討論定案到最後民眾拿到錢大概多少的時間"},{"start":385.576,"end":409.464,"text":"一般發現金它大部分是有特殊的一個目的尤其是有特殊的狀況那上次發現金普發現金主要是因為經濟成長的一個狀況不好然後包括是疫後為了鼓勵大家消費所以這個部分才會有特別發現金那所以當初是用特別條例特別條例先經過立法院同意以後然後再"},{"start":410.064,"end":437.183,"text":"去編列預算這樣子也是編列特別預算來做支應所以前後花了多少時間這至少因為五年嗎 有沒有有沒有那麼久至少要三個月以上對嘛 三個月嘛所以不是五年也不是三年兩年嘛你很快速度快一點的話大家都可以領到這筆錢啊政府給紅包也不是只有台灣給啊請問主計長"},{"start":440.373,"end":469.081,"text":"新加坡有沒有給這個我倒是不是很清楚那有誰清楚主計總署有沒有一個人文武百官有沒有隨便一個人清楚的或者是可以待會回答的沒有關係有沒有香港也有啊你看你沒有回答記者都回答了啊"},{"start":470.003,"end":492.202,"text":"香港有 新加坡有 澳門有 美國好像有吧很多地方都有啊所以 竹下你研究一下嘛 是好不好 因為這個是民生需要的 民生議題嘛你剛剛講的有它的道理"},{"start":492.981,"end":520.115,"text":"那所有委員提出來也很有道理因為年年稅收都超增那你超增民眾本來就是很期待嘛那你物價又飆漲起碼吃滷肉飯漲那麼多的時候我一萬塊下來我還可以多一顆滷蛋啊真的啦主席你可能不了解民間疾苦"},{"start":521.104,"end":544.77,"text":"我們出去跑第一線的時候 大家都很辛苦 熬熬待補就來談經濟成長率好了 去年的經濟成長率是多少4.59那所有民眾領的薪資 它的中位數是多少中位數以這個月宣布的部分是3萬8"},{"start":546.181,"end":559.385,"text":"是,台灣現在已經出現一個M型化的社會其實主計長你可以清楚告訴大家國家的GDP真正的來源集中在哪一個產業一般是"},{"start":565.236,"end":589.697,"text":"電子半導體其實那個部分就佔了大概百分之六、七十所以另外比較M型中下階的部分其實大家生活很辛苦的每個人都是知珠必寄所以拜託主計長你做做好事真的有很多的家庭就是需要這一萬塊"},{"start":591.53,"end":619.708,"text":"家裡有四個人四萬 家裡有五個人就五萬而且 當家裡的老人長者領到一萬塊的時候年輕人也可以減少一些若干的負擔所以 主席講 接你 你可以民意調查做一個民意調查 看看到底需不需要好 謝謝好 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去做一個統計其中因為94%是沒有漲的只有6%那而且漲幅也都不大那是你查到了啦沒有是租客填的租客填的我們有針對這個去做調查那這個大概因為主力總署他也是抽樣式的調查他也不是全面性的我們也是從我們的租金補貼那我只能說明一件事情是因為租金補貼"},{"start":139.728,"end":160.511,"text":"他普通租到的房子我說明一下因為他的房子很大部分都是屬於中古屋甚至老房子他就漲的機率本來就相對比較低但是今天如果是新成屋或是新古屋也就是在10年15年的那他漲的機率是有可能所以兩個是不太相同的市場"},{"start":160.811,"end":189.358,"text":"你現在的這一個說明老實講是有一個片面的一個說法的存在就主計數的這個統計數字來說還是相對有一定程度的公信力但是我今天不是在argue說真相是如何但是我們要追求真相跟觀點性是如何啦我是想說是不是內政部因為現在已經實施這麼多年了嘛我們總不希望說把這一個租金補貼造成一個助長的結果嘛所以說我們是不是應該去了解一下到底這幾年的政策的實施的結果"},{"start":190.058,"end":213.723,"text":"結果如何來做一個回顧檢討一個評估出來有沒有可能不過這個部分就會涉及到所有的租屋市場這是所有的租屋市場而不是只有我們在社會住宅我們現在是談租屋市場透明化嘛總是我們要逐步去檢討因為110年到現在好幾年了應該是開始做檢討還有評估的時候了我們大概本來是五年一次"},{"start":215.163,"end":242.061,"text":"就是說我們再檢討看看這個要不要加租但是因為這個重大政策不應該拘泥在那五年嘛好不好萬一五年之後越來越長越快那不是我們政策壓力越來越大嗎組長我做這個建議啦好不好我們做個評估啦部長謝謝啦 部長也在點頭那另外一個部分當然就是納管的問題啦這邊呢我們現階段所掌握到的房租契約就大概實際市場的大約六成啦也就是大概是72萬點7萬啦內政部的報告剛剛有寫嘛"},{"start":245.423,"end":269.63,"text":"但是出估抓起來倒推的話我們的租屋主大概是121.1萬也是代表約莫還有48.4萬的黑數也就是未納管的部分那我們現階段是透過公益出租人租金補貼包租貸款等等還有包括財政部的查稅等等所納管的對象而有所增加 漲貨大概六成"},{"start":270.35,"end":273.439,"text":"可是我必須說從我在財政委員會追蹤這個議題的時候目前我一直從108年"},{"start":278.212,"end":299.543,"text":"財政部才抓到6053件也就是一年才抓到1000件違反這個營業稅的規定那這個部分有沒有一個可能性因為畢竟我們問到財政部的時候都提到說內政部是業管單位是主管機關那如果是這樣的話我做一個建議說內政部現在跟不動產的這個資訊平台"},{"start":302.364,"end":320.877,"text":"比如講591、台灣租屋網、租租網、一租網這些團體的時候有沒有合作的空間因為大部分的房東都會去這邊登記出租嘛在這個出租的過程當中內政部是不是要跟這些平台合作一下在房東出租的資訊上面應該也有先行繳納繳稅的證明或者是"},{"start":325.12,"end":340.209,"text":"用這個作為前提要進來可以談人廣告這是第一個可能性然後也就是源頭管理的部分另外一個部分財政部有財政部的職責那這個方式可以達到一個實租登錄還有租租市場透明化的一個目標有沒有可能"},{"start":341.527,"end":364.001,"text":"這個部分我們再跟業者這邊討論一下因為現在平台業者的部分是沒有公佈他的一個完整的一個門牌一些資訊所以那個東西如果要提供的部分可能還要跟業者討論一下因為業者可能他也會有一些考量對我是覺得這個部分有沒有什麼誘因或制度來跟這業者合作畢竟他們掌握了最多的房東的一個訊息嘛那部長"},{"start":366.178,"end":380.594,"text":"其實我們跟這些業者常常在討論他也希望跟內政部來充分合作但是我們剛剛就卡到一個問題是個資他要不要公佈個資要不要公佈不是由我們來決定因為我們沒有辦法用這樣強制的方式來處理但是我們盡量會鼓勵"},{"start":381.796,"end":396.338,"text":"讓他在租金市場裡面也是扮演一個助力讓很多的租金市場是更透明化但是我們還是需要跟那麼多溝通其實我們也常溝通啦他們也願意支持我們的很多政策我們繼續努力啦可能不能用棒子啦 竟然用蘿蔔啦 用幼嬰啦謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝郭國文委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1087,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時33分）謝謝主席，有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，非常謝謝，受災戶房屋補貼方案的公文已經下來了。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：同樣要談這個補貼啦，因為最近租屋補貼的問題，內政部在110年7月21號的時候曾經有講說不得以租金補貼為由來調漲租金，但是就結果來說的話，還是會造成租金的上漲啦，就我個人看到的數據，給部長參考一下。","近期租金CPI的年增率大幅成長，主計處有報告，101年到110年的時候，平均年漲幅大概是0.81，跟同期整體CPI的平均漲幅0.92，其實是相差無幾。但是從什麼時候開始，租金的CPI開始暴漲呢？就是從111年7月的時候，年增率突然就突破2%以上，也就是與111年7月的租金補貼擴大開始日期，剛好是同步成長，現階段補貼從300億的擴大租屋補貼開始，從12萬戶到50萬戶適用。到目前為止依照最新的數字，今年2月份臺灣的整體CPI是1.58%，房租的部分是2.56%，這很明顯大概增加了，還高於1%左右。部長，我請教一下，還是署長代打，房租的CPI漲幅跟租金補貼應該有關聯性吧？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們去年就已經做過第一次調查，針對領取租金補貼的戶數做一個統計，其中因為94%是沒有漲的，只有6%，而且漲幅也都不大。"],["郭委員國文：那是你查到的……"],["吳署長欣修：對，我說明一下……"],["郭委員國文：沒有查到的部分……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，是租客填的。"],["郭委員國文：租客。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們有針對這個去做調查，因為主計總處也是抽樣式的調查，他不是全面性的，我們也是從我們的租金補貼……"],["郭委員國文：就結果……"],["吳署長欣修：我只能說明一件事情，因為租金補貼，憑他普通租到的房子……"],["郭委員國文：主計即便是抽樣式，大概沒有人去挑戰它啦！"],["吳署長欣修：不是，我說明一下，因為它的房子大部分都是屬於中古屋甚至老房子，漲的機率本來就相對比較低；但如果是新成屋或新古屋，也就是在10年、15年的，那它漲的機率是有可能，所以兩個是不太相同的市場。"],["郭委員國文：署長，你現在的這個說明老實講是有片面的說法存在，就主計總處的統計數字來說還是相對有一定程度的公信力。我今天不是在argue真相是如何，但我們要追求真相跟關聯性是如何。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["郭委員國文：我其實想說內政部是不是……因為現在已經實施這麼多年了，所以不希望把租金補貼造成一個助漲的結果。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以我們是不是應該先去了解一下，到底這幾年政策的實施結果如何，來做回顧、檢討，做一個評估出來，有沒有可能？"],["吳署長欣修：不過這個部分就會涉及到所有的租屋市場，這是所有的租屋市場，而不是只有我們在社會住宅……"],["郭委員國文：對，就是我們現在要逐步去做調查，現在在談租屋市場透明化嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["郭委員國文：我們總是要逐步去檢討。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["郭委員國文：因為110年到現在也好幾年了，應該是可以做檢討還有評估的時候了。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們大概本來是5年一次。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["吳署長欣修：現在我們再檢討看看這個要不要加速。"],["郭委員國文：但因為這是重大的政策，不應該拘泥在那5年，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["郭委員國文：萬一5年之後越漲越快，那不是我們的政策壓力越來越大嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["郭委員國文：署長，我做這個建議。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["郭委員國文：好不好？我們做個評估。部長，謝謝喔！部長也在點頭。","另外一個部分當然就是納管的問題，我們現階段所掌握到的房租契約，就是實際市場的大約六成，大概是72.7萬，內政部的報告剛剛有寫。但是粗估抓起來倒推的話，我們的租屋族大概是121.1萬，代表約莫還有48.4萬的黑數，也就是未納管的部分。我們現階段是透過公益出租人、租金補貼、包租代管，還包括財政部的查稅等等所納管的對象有所增加，掌握大概六成。可是我必須說，從我在財政委員會追蹤這個議題的時候，到目前為止，108年至今財政部才抓到6,053件，也就是一年才抓到1,000件違反營業稅的規定。這個部分有沒有一個可能性，因為畢竟我們問到財政部的時候都會提到說內政部是業管單位、是主管機關，如果是這樣的話，我做一個建議，內政部現在的不動產資訊平臺，譬如591、台灣租屋網、租租通、易租網這些團體，有沒有合作的空間？因為大部分的房東都會去這邊登記出租，在出租的過程，內政部是不是要跟這些平臺合作一下？這些房東出租的資訊上面應該也有先行繳納繳稅的證明，或者是用這個做為前提要件可以刊登廣告，這是第一個可能性，也就是源頭管理的部分。","另外一個部分，財政部有財政部的職責，這個方式可以達到實租登錄還有租屋市場透明化的一個目標，有沒有可能？"],["林代理司長家正：這個部分我們再跟業者這邊討論一下，因為現在平臺業者的部分是沒有公布完整的門牌這一些資訊。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["林代理司長家正：所以那個東西如果要提供的部分，可能還要跟業者討論一下，因為業者可能也會有一些考量。"],["郭委員國文：對，我就覺得這個部分有沒有什麼誘因或制度來跟業者合作，畢竟他們掌握了最多的房東訊息。部長？"],["劉部長世芳：其實我們跟這些業者常常在討論，他也希望跟內政部充分合作。"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["劉部長世芳：但我們剛剛就卡到一個問題，就是個資他要不要公布？個資要不要公布不是由我們決定，因為我們沒有辦法用這樣強制的方式處理，但是我們儘量會鼓勵。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["劉部長世芳：讓他在租金市場裡面也是扮演一個助力，讓很多的租金市場更透明化，但我們還是需要跟他們多溝通，其實我們也常溝通，他們也願意支持我們的很多政策。"],["郭委員國文：好，我們繼續努力。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["郭委員國文：可能不能用棒子，儘量用蘿蔔、用誘因，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢。","現在宣告：登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答到此結束。高金素梅委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。第三，書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc090fc34d94117753f8313c4daf57d80ad1d241b1dc2f533058053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:21:46 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再當委員先進列席的政府經商署長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請內政部劉部長 地政司林司長還有國土署的吳署長劉部長 林司長 吳署長有請"},{"start":26.972,"end":31.857,"text":"中委員好部長好 署長好 市長好我們比較輕鬆的補充是我們行政院團隊裡面三聲帶朱祁鈴我演繹不來 演繹不來我請教一下 他們那時候我聽到老闆在說手腳跟脖子結這是什麼意思 你知道嗎手腳跟脖子結"},{"start":45.785,"end":63.717,"text":"我真的不知道 拜託都議員跟我說好來 首開就是屬於老一輩在日治時代呢都市居民的疏散那暴擊呢就是轟炸的意思啦好 那我想這個是一個比較緩和氣氛來 下一個部長呢在不久前來到我們屏東江華義那時候我們的興建"},{"start":65.15,"end":75.417,"text":"部立屏東醫院的醫療大樓原來是地下一層 地上七層後來院長 蘇院長支持改成地下三層 地上十二層部長也特別強調這一點那是什麼原因 保廷 部長第一個當然是要這個造福我們在屏東地區的廣大的這個居民讓他在醫療品質上面可以提升那非常謝謝我們的蘇前院長的幫忙那另外一個就是我們希望能夠結合那個衛福部的一個韌性醫療計畫裡面"},{"start":94.028,"end":118.882,"text":"把這個地下三層樓的部分變成是一個符合現代功能而且有具有戰備功能的一個災害規劃的院區就是平時是當停車場然後有緊急災難的時候會變成手術跟病房或者是大規模譬如說我們有COVID-19這種大規模的災害會變成手術病房然後下面的病床會增加相當多好那現在跟內政部的又有關我們看下一頁就是說什麼時候台灣的建築物開始要設防空避難室"},{"start":122.641,"end":143.036,"text":"其實在63年以前這開始其實都有啦那其實就這個部分來講現在也它是一個標示性但是這個部分其實在規劃上都還保持著都還保留嘛所以原來我們看到的公寓大樓底下不是最早不是停車場喔它是讓你做防空避難部長那當初防空避難的目的是什麼就是如果"},{"start":145.819,"end":168.836,"text":"如果有任何需要防空避難的部分當然就是找防空避難設施但是現在有加入就是如果有重大天災也是把它列進去裡面也是疏散撤離也放在這裡面所以都市的防災這些規劃都要有部長請繼續這邊有個新聞美蘇冷戰期間有一個防空避難的設計有人到家裡打開以前家裡的後院挖了一個防空壕在美國加州的西岸有這種東西"},{"start":170.717,"end":197.534,"text":"挖這個黃宮都是害怕戰爭那現在呢現在如果想要在家裡後院弄一個這樣的設施你覺得是基於什麼樣的心態這個要警國員指教我不曉得他們是基於什麼心態好我們來看一下我不在推銷啦現在特斯拉他說一個迷你屋啊只要台幣不到25萬元他有太陽能還有儲能的設施還可以污水處理假設部長如果你剛好住在鄉下有個空間你想不想擺一個在後花園"},{"start":199.324,"end":217.817,"text":"因為我剛好就沒有啊所以這個假設一直不成立啊那25萬你買得起嗎25萬台幣買得起啊買得起嗎如果是美金買不起好那我現在告訴你一個情況來往下看其實呢現在很多的都會上班族呢他們其實在鄉下有買了一塊地那農地農用這沒有問題但是呢他會怎麼樣他會當假日農夫"},{"start":220.379,"end":249.569,"text":"他中午假日呢就去那個地方種種菜啦看看這個養養這個爬藤啦什麼之類的就鄉村田園生活但是他有在做農業生產所以內政部呢根據農業用地農業設施的容許使用審查辦法然後說只要你超過300坪有農用的適時但是如果有農舍就不能限制裁市因為這個大部分都當制裁市的名義然後呢農業主人不需要有農民的身份假如啦部長你具備這樣的身份你會不會想要弄一個"},{"start":252.25,"end":278.447,"text":"還是我們署長你想要弄一個各位報告其實在鄉下要蓋這一類的其實大部分還不需要用到這個組合其實它通常會用貨櫃屋的形式但是貨櫃屋是不合屋所以其實概念是都一致所以說馬克思推出這個組合屋這種屋子可不可以成為農業生產設施的一部分部長請你來我要跟你說一下要拜託你跟農業部長思考一下"},{"start":279.167,"end":297.205,"text":"其實部長因為呢其實這樣的一個像那麼先進的像太空艙的東西其實在我們的農村它如果有太陽能的光電板它有儲能設施加上它有簡單的污水排放處理其實呢它的農民的供糧會改善很多"},{"start":297.685,"end":301.549,"text":"現在如果你去農村看 蜜蜂餅啦 蟬蝦餅啦 還有羊尿啦放煮食的羊都很簡陋其實我相信如果給農民一個許可他弄一個漂漂亮亮的 平常農業使用的時候呢 他符合但是最終是什麼時候 部長你看"},{"start":315.242,"end":331.798,"text":"在都會的空地或農地他平常是這樣的使用但是遇到了有大型災害發生大地震啊什麼的防災任性這個地方很快的就會可能成為這些避難小屋的放置場所部長你覺得可以想像嗎"},{"start":335.24,"end":357.415,"text":"委員非常有創意但是我在想像就是說如果在假設有大地震發生這樣的狀況不是用所謂的我們的衛福部所說的這個臨時組合的方式的話會造成說如果這個大地震在災後復原的時候變成一大堆都是屬於違章建築說得很好這個反而是更難處理這就是921留給我們的印象因為過去台灣沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":359.736,"end":381.036,"text":"但是你看看馬斯克那個東西,它其實是移動式的而且它是一個量產的,是一個商業化的,平常就可以用組合屋,現在我們看到市面上的組合屋,有固定在生產的廠商嗎?大部分都是在做公寮使用但是如果它成為一個家庭裡面,大家好像旅行拖車一樣,常常就會構置放在三分地那裡放一下"},{"start":382.077,"end":400.95,"text":"那他會覺得呢又有市場就有產線就有產能遇到需要大量擴充的時候可以馬上的生產製造而且不會是減肉的而且到時候符合有儲能可以自給自足還有污水處理然後平常的時候呢因為有平常的用途在必要的時候他就可以發揮這樣的作用而且"},{"start":403.271,"end":429.717,"text":"空地要擺放很快要移除也很快這裡面都涉及到什麼法規包括我們的農地的農業設施容許跟以及我們目前地政司我們的國土署你們在做都市空間規劃的時候防災空間的思維你們會看到公園必要的時候我可以放很多這個對不對農地也可以放很多這個要疏散大家去那裡疏散來署長那麼署長簡單講你覺得有哪些法規要修改"},{"start":432.416,"end":457.641,"text":"跟委員報告啦 其實因為就暫時的話 我想我沒有講暫時啦 重大災害那樣重大災害的時候 其實相關的災防法裡面其實我是覺得可以去討論這件事情第二個就是說 那憑這個配方我說明一下好了 其實我們像很多是屬於像過去災害發生以後 我們大概適用最多就是像類似有一些搶救災的重機具那我們過去的重機具在"},{"start":458.661,"end":475.779,"text":"在分區裡面是找不到的重機具的停放場所是找不到的那我們最近跟交通部有在討論修法因為你這些重機具它還是要找到合法的地方可以去施作去放那但是這一類的它是屬於臨時性的生產它不像重機具我平常也要用"},{"start":476.42,"end":496.605,"text":"那所以我的意思就是平常就要能用才會有生產就要平常可以放需要的時候才大量的可以安放如果你沒有災防法不到災防法的啟動條件他不能放就沒有市場我會說明一下好了因為事實上國內不管是做小型的預住業者跟"},{"start":498.667,"end":515.406,"text":"這個貨櫃物業者其實他們平常就已經有能力在做這件事情了他們我們有看過很多的規格品他們只是在分區上面他如果有適合的現在都違法的啊不 我說明一下其實現在的資材市或小型的農舍其實也有類似用玉柱瓶去做的"},{"start":516.027,"end":538.356,"text":"那所以其實我的意思是說國內的相關的業者其實他是有這方面的能力的那大概委員所在意的說我們如果因應緊急狀態的時候我們以防災的概念或是災後復原的概念那其實允許他做更多的話那其實或許是在災防法裡面去討論就可以剛好相反我還在不斷的提你腦筋你又轉過來如果只有災防的時候可以用他平常不會使用"},{"start":539.176,"end":563.466,"text":"像這樣的貨櫃屋它現在都存在灰色地帶內政部不准許 農業部不准許但是如果你們明確的把它的功能面積 大小 重量固定裝置的要求設定進去那麼只要符合這些功能它就可以允許使用那它平常就有市場平常有市場的產品你需要的時候才有可能大量的擴充平常就可能擺放的地方"},{"start":564.326,"end":581.611,"text":"需要的時候就能夠大量排放 平常只能放一個需要的時候可以放很多個這個法規的調適 請部長 拜託最後一個結論請部長的內政部協同農業部來研議調整法規就空地農地設置容許設施沖弱避難儲存空間之用進行一個研究 可以嗎 部長指示一下可不可以"},{"start":584.827,"end":605.564,"text":"我們要跟農業部一起來討論我想不只吧可能國防部也要吧我沒有只上國防部的要求國土署其實目前防災的主政是內政部我知道災有很多種災但是國土署所處理的有關土地的管制規範會碰觸到這個問題裡面的限制很大"},{"start":606.537,"end":625.325,"text":"通道國防部的用地嗎?沒有通道農地跟工地國土署的土地使用的規範那就是內政部啊沒有應該是這麼說啦我知道委員的意思啦但是應該是這麼說因為土地使用管制規則是剛性的它一旦開放了就開放了"},{"start":626.084,"end":640.271,"text":"所以你們要設計一個專案容許或者特案容許或者容許沒有嘛所以你們要有一個容許的概念審查容許的概念好不好你們可以去研議可不可以答應去研議一下只是研議啊好我找你就是原因謝謝部長謝謝署長好謝謝宗家兵委員這個高金素美委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1019,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時22分）謝謝主席，在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請內政部劉部長、地政司林代理司長還有國土署的吳署長。"],["主席：有請劉部長、林代理司長、吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好、代理司長好。我們比較輕鬆一點，部長是我們行政院團隊裡面三聲帶主持人，我不會英語、日語，我請教一下，我小時候聽過老一輩在說「疏開」跟「爆擊」，這是什麼意思，你知道嗎？「疏開」跟「爆擊」。"],["劉部長世芳：我真的不知道，要拜託委員跟我說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：「疏開」就是屬於老一輩在日治時代都市居民的疏散，「爆擊」就是轟炸的意思，我想這是一個比較緩和氣氛。","很高興部長不久前來到我們屏東，那時候我們新建部立屏東醫院的醫療大樓，原來是地下1層、地上7層，後來蘇院長支持，改成地下3層，地上12層，部長也特別強調這一點，那是什麼原因，部長？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，當然是要造福在屏東地區的廣大居民，在醫療品質上面可以提升，非常謝謝蘇前院長的幫忙，另外一個是我們希望能夠結合衛福部的韌性醫療計畫，把地下3層樓的部分變成是一個符合現代功能，而且具有戰備功能的災害規劃的一個院區。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是平時是當停車場，然後有緊急災難的時候會變成手術病房……"],["劉部長世芳：或者是大規模，譬如說COVID-19……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，大規模的災害，然後變成手術病房。"],["劉部長世芳：然後下面的病床會增加相當多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現在跟內政部的業務有關，什麼時候臺灣的建築物開始要設防空避難室？"],["吳署長欣修：其實從63年開始就都有啦，就這個部分來講，現在它是一個標示性，但是這個部分其實在規劃上都還保持著。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都還保留嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以原來我們看到的公寓大樓底下，最早並不是停車場，它是讓你做防空避難室。"],["吳署長欣修：對，叫做防空避難室。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，當初防空避難的目的是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：有任何需要防空避難的部分，當然就是找防空避難設施，但是現在有加入如果有重大天災，也是把它列進裡面，也就是疏散、撤離也放在這裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以都市的防災，這些規劃都要有。部長，這邊有個新聞，美蘇冷戰期間有個防空避難的設計，有人到家裡打開井蓋後發現以前家裡的後院挖了一個防空壕，在美國西岸的加州有這種東西，當初挖這個防空洞是害怕戰爭，那現在呢？現在如果想要在家裡後院弄一個這樣的設施，你覺得是基於什麼樣的心態？"],["劉部長世芳：這個要請委員指教，我不曉得他們自己的心態。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，我不是在推銷啦，現在特斯拉說一個迷你屋只要臺幣不到25萬元，它有太陽能，還有儲能的設施，還可以污水處理，假設部長如果你剛好住在鄉下有個空間，你想不想擺一個在後花園？"],["劉部長世芳：因為我剛好就沒有啊，所以這個假設問題就不成立。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那25萬你買得起嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：25萬臺幣買得起，如果是美金就買不起。"],["鍾委員佳濱：買得起嘛，好，那我現在告訴你一個情況，我們往下看，其實現在很多的都會上班族，他們在鄉下買了一塊地，農地農用是沒有問題，但是他會怎麼樣，他會當假日農夫，周末假日他就去那個地方種種菜、養養爬藤什麼之類的，就是過鄉村田園生活，但是他有在做農業生產。所以內政部根據農業用地作農業設施的容許使用審查辦法，說只要你超過300坪，有農用的事實，但是如果有農舍就不能建資材室，因為這個大部分都是資材室的名義，然後農地主人不需要有農民的身分。假如啦，部長，你具備這樣的身分，你會不會想要弄一個？還是我們署長想要弄一個？"],["劉部長世芳：我請署長回答。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實在鄉下要蓋這一類的，大部分還不需要用到這個組合啦，他通常會用貨櫃屋的形式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是貨櫃屋是不合乎……"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以其實概念是都一致啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以馬斯克推出這個組合屋、這種屋子，可不可以成為農業生產設施的一部分？部長請你來，我跟你說一下，要拜託你跟農業部長思考一下。部長，這樣一個那麼先進的，像太空艙的東西，其實在我們的農村，它如果有太陽能的光電板，有儲能設施，加上它有簡單的污水排放處理，其實它對農民的工寮可以改善很多。因為如果你去農村看，魚塭旁邊或田地旁邊，以前的工寮或放資材的工作間都很簡陋，我相信如果給農民一個許可，他弄一個漂漂亮亮的，平常農業使用的時候它符合，但是最重要是什麼時候？部長，你看在都會的空地或農地，他平常是這樣的使用，但是遇到了有大型災害發生時，大地震或什麼的，基於防災韌性，這個地方很快的就可能會成為這些避難小屋的放置場所。部長，你覺得可以想像嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：委員非常有創意，但是我在想像就是說，如果假設有大地震發生的狀況，不是用所謂的衛福部所說的臨時組合方式的話，會造成這個大地震在災後復原的時候變成一大堆都是屬於違章建築，這個反而是更難處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：說得很好，這就是921留給我們的印象。"],["劉部長世芳：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為過去臺灣沒有想過這個問題，但是你看看馬斯克那個東西，它其實是移動式的，而且它是一個量產的，是個商業化的，平常就可以用，組合屋，現在我們看到市面上有固定在生產組合屋的廠商嗎？大部分都在做工寮使用，但是如果它成為一個家庭裡面，像旅行拖車一樣，常常就會在購置後在3分地那個地方放一下，那他會覺得又有市場，就會有產線，就會有產能，遇到需要大量擴充的時候，可以馬上的生產製造，而且不會是簡陋的，而且它都符合有儲能，可以自給自足，還有污水處理。然後平常的時候有平常的用途，在必要的時候，它就可以發揮這樣的作用，而且空地要擺放很快，要移除也很快，這裡面都涉及到什麼法規？包括我們的農地的農業設施容許，以及目前內政部地政司、國土署，你們在做都市空間規劃的時候，防災空間的思維，你們會看到公園，必要的時候我可以放很多這個，對不對？農地也可以放很多這個，要疏散大家就去那裡疏散。請署長簡單講一下，你覺得有哪些法規要修改？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為就戰時的話，我想現在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有講戰時，我是說重大災難。"],["吳署長欣修：重大災害的時候，其實相關的災防法裡面，我是覺得可以去討論這件事情。第二個就是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那平時可不可以放？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下好了，其實很多是屬於……像過去災害發生以後，我們適用最多的就是類似一些搶救災的重機具，過去的重機具在我們的分區裡面是找不到的，重機具的停放場所是找不到的。我們最近跟交通部有在討論修法，因為這些重機具還是要找到合法的地方可以去施作、去放，但是這一類的是屬於臨時性的生產，它不像重機具，我平常也在用，所以我的意思是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛好相反，我要打斷你，就是平常就要能用，才會有生產，就要平常可以放，需要的時候才可以大量的安放，如果你沒有用災防法，不到災防法的啟動條件，它不能放，就沒有市場。"],["吳署長欣修：我也說明一下好了，因為事實上，國內不管是小型的預鑄業者或貨櫃屋業者，其實他們平常就已經有能力在做這件事情了，我們也看過很多的規格品，只是在分區上面，它如果有適合的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在都違法的啊。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，現在的資材室或小型的農舍，其實也有類似用預鑄品去做的，所以我的意思是說，國內相關業者其實是有這方面的能力的。大概委員所在意的是，如果因應緊急狀態的時候，我們以防災的概念或是災後復原的概念，其實允許它做更多的話，或許是在災防法裡面去討論就可以了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛好相反，我還是不斷的提醒你腦筋沒有轉過來。如果只有災防的時候可以用，它平常不會使用，像這樣的貨櫃屋，它現在都存在灰色地帶，內政部不准許，農業部不准許，但是如果你們明確的把它的功能、面積、大小、重量、固定裝置的一些要求設定進去，那麼只要符合這些功能，它就可以允許使用，那它平常就有市場，平常有市場的產品，你需要的時候才有可能大量的擴充，平常就可能擺放的地方，需要的時候就能夠大量擺放，平常只能放一個，需要的時候可以放很多個。","最後的結論，這個法規的調適，拜託部長，請內政部協同農業部來研議調整法規，就空地、農地設置容許設施充做避難、儲能空間之用進行研究，可以嗎？部長指示一下，可不可以？"],["劉部長世芳：我們就跟農業部……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一起來討論，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我想不只吧，可能國防部也要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有指向國防部的要求。"],["劉部長世芳：就內政部跟農業部，因為我看到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國土署，其實目前防災的主政是內政部。"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：災有很多種災。"],["劉部長世芳：但是國土署所處理的有關土地的管制規範會碰觸到這個問題，裡面的限制很大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：碰觸到國防部的用地嗎？沒有！碰觸到農地跟空地。"],["劉部長世芳：國土署土地使用的規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就是內政部啊。"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，我知道委員的意思，但是應該是這麼說，因為土地使用管制規則是剛性的，它一旦開放了就開放了，我們反而會沒有辦法去管控……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們要設計一個專案容許或者特案容許的方式……"],["吳署長欣修：現在制度上是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛，所以你們要有一個容許的概念，審查容許的概念，好不好？你們可以去研議，可不可以答應我去研議一下，只是研議啊！"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們再跟農業部再做討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我找你就是這個原因，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。"],["主席：好，謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","高金素梅委員改提書面質詢。","下一我們請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","最後，我們請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159572","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159572","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0fe3fcf5368ef31958313c4daf57d80ad1d241b1dc2f5330573918cfeb3a2548d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:05:58 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中央給財務的補貼但是我們從108年大概就觀察到一個地方興建的速度已經放緩了就開工發包的數量已經放緩 而且放緩的速度很快"},{"start":89.655,"end":113.829,"text":"所以中央才決定自己進場來興建所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包那所以如果照正常我們一般大樓大概是4年左右的一個規劃興建4到5年的規劃興建的話那中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的一個完工的數據今年大概會有5700戶左右明年大概還會再增加"},{"start":114.489,"end":131.058,"text":"大概一萬一千戶所以大概中央會從今年開始大概會每年連續性的這個數量會比較大幅的成長好署長謝謝因為這個按照過去內政部在第一階段新辦這個涉宅的投入的狀況來講當時啦一戶的成本大約是在486萬我們概算500萬好了是"},{"start":134.5,"end":145.095,"text":"那現在中央加地方大概完成大概九萬戶左右所以我們整個國家目前大概投入四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅這是目前的狀況那我要請教部長或請教署長的問題是說那我們終究"},{"start":149.602,"end":173.734,"text":"目標數到底要蓋多少社宅因為我想 包含總統在承諾說要百萬社宅等等但現在很多事又說要包住貸款跟租金補貼那我們先不討論這些事情我們就社宅本身來討論的話內政部有沒有到底設定目標到底我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準 有沒有算過嗎根本報告啦 因為我們應該用這個方式比較就是說我們為什麼會淨出這個25萬戶的一個比例"},{"start":177.857,"end":196.854,"text":"那25萬戶其實延長來講它的比重大概最高也只到2.5%那2.5%這樣在這個全世界的社宅的存量裡面我們只能算是比較中低標的一個標準但是我想25萬戶就可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能"},{"start":197.515,"end":212.028,"text":"就必須要努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標當然未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高署長我們討論一個數字我們看數字到底台灣需要多少社宅剛剛署長你講25萬或25萬或是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧"},{"start":214.37,"end":225.886,"text":"不是是25萬戶是大概以我們所謂的這個2.5%就是說我們未來如果估計因為現在的小戶化越來越高啦那所以我們估計大概最高台灣可能會到1000萬戶的這個家戶那以1000萬戶的話25萬戶就是一個2.5的一個標準"},{"start":232.194,"end":253.636,"text":"所以是用這樣的概念去算反正雙方的計算標準不一樣結果出來的數字差不多啦就是說你用這個一千萬戶的標準來算是二十五萬戶那如果我是用這個住宅法第四條規範的這個群體算出來的人口數跟戶數算出來也差不多二十五萬戶那我意思是說因為我們社宅它本身條件上它優先要保障的"},{"start":254.236,"end":279.356,"text":"當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者那如果你真的只蓋25萬戶我就會產生一個嚴重的社會後果就大家會說標線化的問題啦所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶當然這在我的理論裡面所以我們才說反推回來如果按照所謂的4成提供給弱勢團體6成提供給當地就業者的比例合理的數字應該是要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合這個整個國家的這個狀態嘛"},{"start":280.757,"end":302.607,"text":"所以我不知道在這樣子60萬以60萬為目標的情況下有可能內政部有可能達成嗎那如果有可能會預計要幾年來達成應該跟委員報告啦因為直接興建是逐年逐年在補但是其實為什麼我們在對待這些社會弱勢或者是他要靠租金補貼跟包租貸款因為他們相對有時候他的移動性是比較小的"},{"start":303.487,"end":320.293,"text":"所以我不太可能就是說我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去我想這就是為什麼要包租貸款跟租金補貼那其實包租貸款跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高其實也是來自於就是雙方互相搭配來協助他們那我想日後續才會隨著"},{"start":321.193,"end":344.002,"text":"每一階段我們提供的這個社宅的量逐漸逐漸把它填補起來這是我們一定還是要努力的目標好 蘇長謝謝你 因為我現在這樣這樣後面有問題我都暫時有解答因為是很想知道說到底今年400億的這個住宅基金裡面有300億 只有100億拿去蓋那300億去做所謂的住居補貼我覺得這個感覺起來比例有點失衡啦那如果說你們的這個"},{"start":345.442,"end":369.057,"text":"政策立場是希望說這300億資金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢這樣的說法我想這個本席是能夠接受但是我們期待說如果要還是回到這數字如果今天還要達到這個60萬戶當然這60萬戶當然是要平均分配在很多的可能這個人口密集區也好或者是說交通便利的捷運或這個鐵路的地區也好如果能夠達到60萬戶我想"},{"start":370.598,"end":392.43,"text":"對於現在這個房價和對於真正的居住真正的達成因為我時間到了我就要再講一句因為這個一個月前我剛好去新加坡那大家都知道新加坡的這個租屋政策做得非常非常的好他們多數的國民他們房價當然很高私有住宅的房價很高但是多數的國民他是受到保障就是說我多數國民我買得起或是我住得起一般的房子很多追求豪宅"},{"start":392.91,"end":416.744,"text":"土地國有化的制度這個要討論一下就是說我要跟組長或跟部長來請教就是說當然後續可能再討論啦因為時間到了就是說我們有這麼多其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地其實是應該是能夠釋出來做相關的工作我們當然期待說我還是以希望以60萬為目標啦我們希望能夠達成這件事情就是土地如果"},{"start":417.324,"end":440.561,"text":"按照目前來講的話,其實不管是財政部也好,或是各國營事也好,其實有非常多的土地是在京華區,我講個,我就舉個例子就好,兩週前,一個月前,我大概有在樓下經濟委會質詢過一件事情,就是我台中市區捷運站旁邊,中青文興路口的邊邊京華地帶的住山住宅區,居然要拿去蓋光電板,我說這就非常浪費啊,"},{"start":441.261,"end":464.642,"text":"這個是很荒謬的事情如果這件事情能夠提供內政部能夠來爭取來提供做社會住宅我想這對區分配或對居住這一點來講就是比較正向的努力也謝謝委員啦這麼漂亮的這麼好的地點你去蓋光電板要蓋其實我們也是都希望地方政府也要努力跟進啦畢竟現在是中央衝的比較快那我們希望地方政府尤其未來有勢力重劃區段徵收區的"},{"start":466.023,"end":476.707,"text":"的這個土地要優先釋出來未來公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口解決地方民眾租屋的需求要一起努力好謝謝署長謝謝部長好謝謝黃建和委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時6分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請內政部劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，我是外委的，所以時間比較有限，但我還是要跟部長關心一下全國社會住宅興辦的進度，過去的總質詢我都有關心，但是今年總質詢我時間不夠就沒有問到，所以剛好今天內政部有來，我也跟部長請教一下。關於去年（2024年、113年）2月底的達成數，中央4,672、地方1萬8,257，基本上是這個數字；過了一年之後，到了今年，中央的社宅完工數是4,990、地方是2萬8,791，這個數字很明顯可以看到中央在興辦社宅的數字上只增加了大約300戶，地方政府興建的社宅大概增加1萬戶。當然從整個國家的角度來講，不分中央、地方大家都是為了民眾來蓋社宅，希望大家能夠達到居住正義的目標，但是我想請教一下部長，到底是什麼原因讓中央蓋的比例、進度這麼慢？"],["劉部長世芳：可不可以請署長回答？"],["黃委員健豪：可以，沒關係。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員，原來在社宅第一期的時候就是希望以地方為主，中央給財務的補貼，但是我們從108年大概就觀察到地方興建的速度已經放緩了，就是開工、發包的數量已經放緩，而且放緩的速度很快。所以中央才決定自己進場來興建，所以我們大致上從109年開始去辦發包，如果照正常一般大樓大概是4到5年規劃、興建的話，中央的部分大概會在今年開始有比較大幅度的完工數據，今年大概會有5,700戶左右，明年大概還會再增加1萬1,000戶，所以從今年開始中央的數量每年會有比較連續性的大幅成長。"],["黃委員健豪：好，署長謝謝，按照過去內政部在第一階段興辦社宅的投入狀況來講，當時一戶的成本大約是486萬，我們概算500萬好了，現在中央加地方大概完成9萬戶左右，所以我們整個國家目前投入大概四千多億在蓋所謂的社宅，這是目前的狀況。我要請教部長或署長的問題是，我們終究目標數到底要蓋多少社宅？包含總統承諾說要百萬社宅等等，但現在很多是用所謂的包租代管跟租金補貼，那我們先不討論這件事情，我們就社宅本身來討論的話，內政部到底有沒有設定目標，我國要多少的社會住宅存量才叫做標準，你們有算過嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們應該用這個方式比較，我們為什麼會計算出25萬戶的比例？25萬戶嚴格來講，它的比重最高也只到2.5%，2.5%在全世界的社宅存量裡面，我們只能算是比較中低標的標準，但是我想25萬戶可能這幾年包含中央跟地方的量能就必須努力去衝刺這樣的一個目標，當然，未來我們期待直接興建的部分能夠再繼續拉高。"],["黃委員健豪：署長，我們來討論一個數字，我們看數字，到底臺灣需要多少社宅？剛剛署長講25萬戶，25萬戶是依據住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢吧？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，25萬戶大概是以我們所謂的2.5%，就是我們估計未來的情況，因為現在的小戶化越來越高，所以我們估計臺灣最高可能會到1,000萬戶的家戶，那以1,000萬戶的話，25萬戶就是2.5%的標準，所以是用這樣的概念去算。"],["黃委員健豪：署長，誤打誤撞，反正雙方的計算標準不一樣，結果出來的數字差不多，你用1,000萬戶的標準來算是25萬戶，我用住宅法第四條規範的這個群體的人口數及戶數算出來也差不多25萬戶。我的意思是，我們社宅本身條件上優先要保障的當然就是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢者，如果你真的只蓋25萬戶，我覺得會產生一個嚴重的社會後果，就是大家會說標籤化的問題，所以我們當然希望不能只有25萬戶！當然這是在我的理論裡面，所以我才說反推回來，如果按照所謂的四成提供給弱勢團體、六成提供給當地就學及就業者的比例，合理的數字應該要來到至少60萬戶才能夠符合整個國家的狀態。在這樣以60萬戶為目標的情況下，內政部有可能達成嗎？如果有可能，預計要幾年來達成？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，直接興建是逐年、逐年在補，為什麼我們對待這些社會弱勢要靠租金補貼跟包租代管？因為相對來說他的移動性比較小，所以不太可能我蓋了一個然後一定要強迫他移過去，我想這就是為什麼要有包租代管跟租金補貼。其實包租代管跟租金補貼弱勢戶的比例也非常高，也是來自於雙方互相搭配來協助他們，後續才會隨著每一階段我們提供的社宅數量逐漸把它填補起來，這是我們一定還要努力的目標。"],["黃委員健豪：好，署長謝謝你，因為後面我的問題就算是有解答，我一直很想知道，為何今年400億的住宅基金裡面只有100億拿去蓋、300億去做所謂的租金補貼，我覺得這個比例感覺有點失衡，如果你們的政策立場是希望這300億租金補貼裡面有很多是所謂的經濟或社會弱勢，這樣的說法本席能夠接受。但我們還是期待……還是回到這個數字，如果今天要達到這個60萬戶，當然這60萬戶要平均分配在很多的人口密集區或者是交通便利的捷運、鐵路地區，如果能夠達到60萬戶，我想對於現在的房價或者真正的居住正義才能達成。","我時間到了，我最後再講一句，一個月前我剛好去新加坡，大家都知道新加坡的組屋政策做得非常、非常好，他們的房價當然很高、私有住宅的房價很高，但是多數的國民受到保障，就是多數國民買得起或是住得起一般的房子，不追求豪宅……"],["吳署長欣修：不過那是他們土地國有化的制度，他們是得利於土地國有化的制度才有辦法。"],["黃委員健豪：關於這個要討論一下，我要跟組長或部長請教的就是，當然後續可能再討論，因為時間到了。其實我們還是有非常多的國有土地或國營事業的國有土地應該能夠釋出來做相關的工作，我還是希望以60萬戶為目標，我們希望能夠達成這件事，土地按照目前來講的話，不管是財政部或是各國營事業，其實有非常多的土地是在精華區。我舉個例子，大概一個月前我有在樓下經濟委員會質詢過一件事情，我們臺中市區的捷運站旁邊、中清文心路口旁的精華地帶、住三住宅區居然要拿去蓋光電板，這就非常浪費、這是很荒謬的事情，如果這個地方內政部能夠爭取來提供做為社會住宅，我想這對區域分配或居住正義就是比較正向的努力。"],["吳署長欣修：也謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：不要讓這麼漂亮、這麼好的地點去蓋光電板，這超荒謬的！"],["吳署長欣修：其實我們也都希望地方政府要努力跟進，畢竟現在是中央衝得比較快，我們希望地方政府未來有市地重劃、區段徵收區的土地要優先釋出來，未來的公有地要優先釋出來蓋社會住宅才能真正引入人口、解決地方民眾租屋的需求，這要一起努力，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝署長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。下一位我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159571","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159571","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc084138e4184fb592a8313c4daf57d80ad1d241b1dc2f53305be04807aac789fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:54:53 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我們好像每一次質詢現在民眾關心的問題都不是單一部會的問題那內政部還是哪一個單位應該要整合"},{"start":173.852,"end":185.423,"text":"你怎麼樣拿到真正的這個就至少我們推估的要比較確切嘛那也就是說你敢不敢面對我們這制度上的黑數和這個破洞"},{"start":188.376,"end":210.552,"text":"那所以現在你說大概預計110萬戶嘛現在剛剛部長說但我們看媒體報導民間估計有200萬戶所以這個公說公有理婆說婆有理那再加上我們的數據又是過時的所以這一塊本席在這裡因為時間也不多這一個議題我們希望你們是不是可以"},{"start":211.452,"end":238.524,"text":"在會後有一些研擬你們去評估嘛應該多久能夠要做一個了解那是不是再回覆給我這樣可以嗎你們要掌握嘛掌握整個租屋市場的情況好不好因為到現在都沒有辦法知道因為民間的租賃大概長租短租那有的商辦租那有的是廠辦租其實大概我們是很難去"},{"start":240.865,"end":258.885,"text":"因為有的這種尤其是短租型的我已經請你你要回覆我那你那個長租短租那本來一個數據出來它不可能是精準的嘛它的估計一定包含都有這些嘛好不好好那再來就是說今天當然很多委員一定都會談我們既然要透明化有很多資訊的"},{"start":260.086,"end":278.58,"text":"揭露各方面 民眾所關心的不只是租金 其實有一項 本席想請教很多民眾反應就是說那個凶宅資訊的揭露 民眾很在意你們這一塊 我有看到內政部 韓市好像說就是以這個"},{"start":280.936,"end":307.068,"text":"你們定義是屋內非自然死亡那但是呢發生在房屋的專有部分還有在賣方持有房屋產權期間發生那但是就是說今天他如果他是這一棟大樓或某一戶的租戶他到樓上跳樓下來這個是不在街露的裡面"},{"start":308.427,"end":337.813,"text":"因為民眾蠻在意的很多年輕人說我看到價格低我就去租了結果後來想一想我了解一下這附近是不是情況如何結果我發現原來他租的那一棟就是凶宅所以這個是一個然後再來就是你們說賣方持有房屋產權期間發生所以只要一轉手這個是前一個持有者的時候發生的所以後一個持有者他就不用揭露了"},{"start":338.807,"end":367.345,"text":"這一塊這種透明化的部分有關凶宅這一塊是不是也可以這個因為民眾都很在意嘛這一塊可不可以向委員報告一下因為有關於凶宅就非自然死亡的部分現在在我們的一個其實城屋在買賣的說明書必須揭露這個部分那我現在說的是租屋租屋沒有租屋沒有那你覺得需不需要那這個部分你們覺得需不需要"},{"start":368.922,"end":389.135,"text":"所以你們目前沒有 都沒有 只有買賣的時候有不過那個一般仲介的部分的話在做一個居間的媒介的時候有關於這個相關的訊息的部分他們一般也會去做一個產調的部分去告訴民眾但是因為政府就沒有強制 那他就不會受重視 就絕對沒有"},{"start":391.246,"end":416.952,"text":"我更新一下租屋的部分也要強制也要去揭露這個訊息所以我才跟你探討說你強制了可是你的規定好像也不盡然完善我剛剛特別舉例他住五樓可是他到頂樓假設頂樓跳下去或在頂樓怎麼了那其實是不會揭露的你租屋的規範是不是跟房屋買賣一樣"},{"start":418.041,"end":440.769,"text":"現在規定是一樣因為都必須要揭露所以我們這不管租屋或買賣這一塊有沒有可能研擬也麻煩會後給我這個回覆好不好就是這一塊你們研擬一下嘛因為民眾很關心我們才會接到大家的反應好那再來就是我請教部長那個我們現在好像這個"},{"start":443.615,"end":469.349,"text":"整個AI時代來臨像我們的這個既然要透明化而且這個也是數據有沒有在考已經有沒有在規劃未來AI時代來臨是不是有導入AI那來提高讓民眾能夠提供他好的租屋的資訊那也能夠提高行政效率甚至對我們行政我們統計處有這樣的考量"},{"start":470.185,"end":491.206,"text":"有這樣的考量目前的情況如何因為我們列了一個這個五年的內政智慧領航計劃那準備利用AI的技術在比如說對租屋的資料的品質的提升還有他的租屋資料的解釋還有租屋資料的政策的應用的上面"},{"start":493.308,"end":509.497,"text":"那這個詳細內容我們大概可以理解那既然有這樣的話AI最重要就是它要有很多的數據你沒有足夠的數據所以一樣這個資訊不夠透明你資訊不足你就沒有辦法有給民眾很好的資訊的品質"},{"start":512.479,"end":536.147,"text":"所以這個部分還是拉到我們很多的資訊你必須要想辦法剛剛我們講的你黑洞數太多了那你還是用在現有的裡面那他還不能反映現有的市場是我們會利用AI的技術然後利用跨領域的資料也就是說譬如說這個計劃什麼時候要實施啊還是在規劃階段已經抱怨了115年到119年"},{"start":540.168,"end":563.734,"text":"115到119的這五年那最後租屋補貼這一塊你們有訂這個補貼的一個價格跟它的不同級數那本席要反映的是目前好像就是台北台北它在第一級的它補貼最多"},{"start":565.379,"end":594.265,"text":"就是8000、5000、3000其他就是5000、4000、2400那本席在這裡只是提說那反映現在市場的情況我想那個署長應該知道竹北的房價好像直逼台北而且很可怕那它的租屋也是它的包括地段各方面所以這個東西你們多久會整個再審核一次或是再鋪孤一次因為我們大概每年都會去檢查它那個所得中位數"},{"start":596.386,"end":609.855,"text":"所得中位數你應該知道逐倍是全國最高的是關鍵那一個數據啦第二個當然就是說因為你的所得中位數的狀態下那大概又會跟那個房屋的持有率這一些大概都會一搭配其實有時候"},{"start":610.99,"end":634.76,"text":"或許會有時候就沒有辦法精準到只有那個區啦像你現在的狀態是竹北區你們是用縣市對不對對因為是用縣市那就被其他鄉鎮縣市對因為你只有基本上只有竹北跟竹東市比較高其他大概相對就拉下去了所以那一塊有時候會看不太出來因為竹北應該講竹北跟新竹市它的房價不輸給台北"},{"start":635.2,"end":647.81,"text":"是我想您很了解所以這一塊還是得看一下因為在竹北市中屋的年輕人非常非常多新竹市也是我們是反映區域的情況好 謝謝好 謝謝徐欣穎委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時55分）謝謝主席，請劉部長。部長，辛苦了，直接留在原地。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，我們今天是要談租賃市場透明化的現況與展望，我們相信今天的議題不單純是租屋市場的管理，它是一場關於青年生存空間的危機，也是政府制度誠信的壓力，更是社會公平正義的最後一道防線。既然我們要談的是透明化，本席想請教你目前全國租用戶數，你們估計大約是多少？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在我們是用推估的，我們用行政院主計總處及教育部的部分推估，潛在的租屋市場規模大概是110.5萬戶。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這個是109年的數據。"],["劉部長世芳：因為主計總處是十年才報導一次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：十年一次，所以我們政府治理要不要改進？"],["劉部長世芳：但教育部是111學年度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：教育部是111學年度？"],["劉部長世芳：對，對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這一塊就是本席在今天這個議題要特別提出來，政府治理要不要與時俱進？109年那時候訂定我們每十年一次，可是整個科技，還有各方面的社會需求跟進步，您認為還是十年一次嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：這個我們當然是要尊重主計總處。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這是主計總處……"],["林代理司長家正：謝謝委員，地政司報告一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：地政司？"],["林代理司長家正：剛剛委員引用到的，就是行政院主計總處每十年會做一次人口及住宅普查，因為十年的期間有點過長，所以在中間的五年，國土署也會去做相關的住宅調查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們怎麼調查？好，請國土署，你們是怎麼調查的？"],["吳署長欣修：我們大概都會引用這個，因為主計總處大致上會有一個慣性大概會有一萬多戶，我們也會去參照其戶數的範圍去做類似的，因為這樣大家的數據比較不會失真。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以我們希望中央這邊要來整合，主計總處也有，教育部也有，國土署也有，部長，這是不是應該由內政部……總要有一個整合單位，我們好像每一次質詢現在民眾關心的問題，都不是單一部會的問題，內政部還是哪一個單位應該要整合，你怎麼樣拿到真正的數據，至少你們推估得要比較確切，也就是說，你敢不敢面對這制度上的黑數和破洞？現在你說大概預計110萬戶，如剛剛部長說的，但我們看媒體報導，民間估計有200萬戶，所以這個公說公有理，婆說婆有理，再加上我們的數據又是過時的，這一塊本席在這裡，因為時間也不多，這個議題我們希望你們是不是可以在會後有一些研擬？你們去評估多久能夠做一個瞭解，是不是再回復給我，這樣可以嗎？你們要掌握嘛！掌握整個租屋市場的的情況，好不好？因為到現在都沒有辦法知道。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解，因為民間的租賃大概有長租、短租，有的是商辦租，有的是廠辦租，其實大概……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，沒錯嘛！因為你的數字……"],["吳署長欣修：我們是很難去……尤其是短租型的很難去處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦，我已經請你回復我。那個長租、短租，本來一個數據出來，它不可能是精準的，它的估計一定包含都有這些，好不好？","再來，今天當然很多委員一定都會談，我們既然要透明化，有很多資訊的揭露、各方面，民眾所關心的不只是租金，本席想請教，其實有一項很多民眾反映，即兇宅資訊的揭露，民眾很在意。你們這一塊，我有看到內政部函釋，好像你們的定義是屋內非自然死亡，但是發生在房屋的專有部分，還有在賣方持有房屋產權期間發生，但今天他如果是這一棟大樓或某一戶的租戶，他到樓上跳樓下來，這個是不在揭露的裡面，因為民眾滿在意的，很多年輕人看到價格低，就去租了，結果後來想一想，我瞭解一下這附近是不是情況如何，結果發現原來他租的那一棟就是兇宅，這是一個。再來，你們說賣方持有房屋產權期間發生，所以只要一轉手，這是前一個持有者的時候發生的，所以後一個持有者就不用揭露，這種透明化的部分，有關兇宅這一塊是不是也可以揭露，因為民眾都很在意，這一塊可不可以？"],["林代理司長家正：向委員報告一下，有關於兇宅就是非自然死亡的部分，現在在我們成屋買賣說明書上必須揭露這個部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在說的是租屋，租屋沒有？"],["林代理司長家正：租屋沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你覺得需不需要？"],["林代理司長家正：那這個部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們覺得需不需要？所以你們目前都沒有，只有買賣的時候有？"],["林代理司長家正：不過，一般仲介在做居間的媒介時，有關於這個相關的訊息，他們一般也會進行產調去告訴民眾。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是因為政府沒有強制，它就不會受重視，就絕對沒有嘛！"],["林代理司長家正：我更新一下，租屋的部分也要強制、也要去揭露這個訊息。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！"],["林代理司長家正：對、對，不好意思。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我才跟你探討你強制了，可是你的規定好像也不盡然完善，我剛剛特別舉例，他住五樓，可是他到頂樓，假設從頂樓跳下去，或是在頂樓怎麼了，其實是不會揭露的，租屋的規範是不是跟房屋買賣一樣？"],["林代理司長家正：現在的規定是一樣，因為都必須要揭露。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不管是租屋或買賣，這一塊有沒有可能研擬，也麻煩會後給我回復，好不好？"],["林代理司長家正：OK。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是這一塊你們研擬一下，因為民眾很關心，我們才會接到大家的反映。","再來我請教部長，現在整個AI時代來臨，像這個既然要透明化，而且這個也是數據，有沒有已經在規劃未來AI時代來臨，是不是有導入AI，能夠提供民眾好的租屋資訊，也能夠提高行政效率，甚至對我們行政……"],["劉部長世芳：我們統計處有這樣的考量，我請他講一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有這樣的考量，目前的情況如何？"],["饒處長志堅：因為我們列了一個五年的內政智慧領航計畫，準備利用AI技術，例如對租屋資料的品質提升、租屋資料的解釋，還有租屋資料的政策應用上面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好，詳細內容我們大概可以理解。既然有這樣做，AI最重要就是它要有很多的數據，當你沒有足夠的數據，一樣是資訊不夠透明，你資訊不足，就沒有辦法給民眾很好的資訊品質。所以這個部分還是回到很多的資訊你必須要想辦法取得，如剛剛我們講的，黑數太多了，你還是用在現有的資料裡面，它還不能反映現有的市場。"],["饒處長志堅：是，我們會利用AI技術、利用跨領域的資料，也就是譬如說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個計畫什麼時候要實施，還是在規劃階段？"],["饒處長志堅：已經報院了，115年到119年。"],["徐委員欣瑩：115到119的這5年。"],["饒處長志堅：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，租屋補貼這一塊你們有訂補貼的價格跟不同級數，本席要反映的是，目前好像臺北在第一級補貼最多，就是8,000、5,000、3,000，其他就是5,000、4,000、2,400，本席在這裡只是提說，反映現在市場的情況，我想署長應該知道，竹北的房價好像直逼臺北而且很可怕，那邊的租屋也是，包括地段各方面，所以這個東西你們多久會整個再審核一次或是再評估一次？"],["吳署長欣修：我們大概每年都會去檢查所得中位數。"],["徐委員欣瑩：關於所得中位數，你應該知道竹北是全國最高的。"],["吳署長欣修：是關鍵的一個數據；第二個，在所得中位數的狀態下，大概又會跟房屋的持有率等等這一些搭配，或許有時候就沒辦法精準到只有那一個區，像你現在的狀態是竹北市。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們是用縣市，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，因為是用縣市。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那它就被其他鄉鎮稀釋了。"],["吳署長欣修：對，基本上只有竹北跟竹東比較高，其他大概相對就拉下去了，所以那一塊有時候會看不太出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：竹北跟新竹市的房價不輸給臺北，我想您很了解。"],["吳署長欣修：對，沒有錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這一塊還是得看一下，因為在竹北市租屋的年輕人非常非常多，新竹市也是，我們是反映區域的情況。"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位請蔡易餘委員質詢，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","下一位請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0d34eb3497fa7282b8313c4daf57d80ad1d241b1dc2f5330575783c786b3857c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:37:58 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洞是11.47億是的沒錯那這租金補貼什麼時候會用完呢如果沒有解洞"},{"start":91.643,"end":117.61,"text":"我們按照目前就是來申請租金補貼的部分我們是希望說可以按照目前的狀態不要給他打折扣的話最快大概11月就會用慶就是說你沒有凍結沒有解凍的話11月份就沒有了對那如果他是不解凍那租金補貼就會受到影響受害者就是廣大的租屋群眾是的那另外財化法之後"},{"start":121.533,"end":138.104,"text":"你要中央釋出很多資源給這個地方對那未來包租代管的部分要由地方政府去執行嗎是這樣子我們在111年以前就是有關社會住宅的興建那大部分都是分成中央跟地方有一定比例的分配"},{"start":138.584,"end":162.675,"text":"那後來因為中央會覺得說為了社宅跟居住正義很多這個經費都是由中央全額來支付那現在如果財化法按照原來要推動的時候我們就會下放也就是說幾乎大概是25%或28%的這個經費要由地方政府來支付中央蓋的多地方蓋的少目前是這樣而且很多地方大概已經不再繼續蓋所以你這個包租代管"},{"start":163.271,"end":183.492,"text":"因為中央蓋的多所以包租貸管的費用還是要中央處理會比較多對不對理論上會這樣子那你如果包租貸管的經費你如果被因為財政收入發放的話你下放地方的時候你怎麼樣針對你中央蓋的這個這個社會住宅來處理這些包租貸管可能相對要減少我請署長來跟進來署長"},{"start":185.414,"end":208.092,"text":"我大概分幾個層次啦第一個大概就是租金補貼可能就回歸到110年以前就是中央跟地方各自負擔一定的戶數一定比例的戶數那你要讓所有的廣告事主知道問題出在哪裡然後第二個大概包括帶管的這一個服務費或相關的這個費用的一個分攤這個可能也會找地方政府就一起來協助做分攤"},{"start":209.233,"end":234.287,"text":"那第三個就是說新建設宅的部分因為其實中央現在蓋的設宅的數量已經超過地方而且比例不斷的在拉高那如果才要把通過以後大概我們會希望地方政府尤其是新開發區啊新開發區就以後大概統一由地方政府來負擔然後分的包租貸款的費用又多中央蓋的設宅多那包租貸款的經費又全部下放地方"},{"start":235.762,"end":258.899,"text":"這變成說一個好的政策經過扭曲之後一個服務國利民的政策經過扭曲之後不當煽動之後有可能變成禍國殃民受到傷害是全國租屋族的老百姓這些租屋族相對都是在經濟上相對是比較弱勢所以需要租金補貼嘛"},{"start":260.543,"end":288,"text":"那是不是雪上加霜呢雪上加霜結果就是禍國殃民嘛我很遺憾我們到時候就是要求地方政府也要負起負起一些責任所以到時候費用的分攤就是雙方還要再重新談那大概我們至少會按照比例去減少的部分我們就會要求地方政府來自行負擔那另外前瞻建設的預算沒有過地方政府這下怎麼應應地方政府也沒有錢"},{"start":289.079,"end":317.663,"text":"那些有沒有相關的配套方案目前前瞻如果沒有審查的話其實大概道路的部分大概是衝擊最大他就讓你沒有辦法去做事情嗎包含去年核定現在在再建工程當中的很可能就會停止路不會自己開天上不會掉下一條路一定要中央地方協力合作中央要補貼大部分預算對不對你現在前瞻沒有過路開不了啦影響是誰影響是所有的國人同胞"},{"start":318.283,"end":338.179,"text":"另外因為我時間關係北高雄地方建設發展有三條道路我已經看了五六次包括湖內區東方路連接正義社區包括岡山區高二十九菜條路包括紫關區中正路連接遠港路打空工程這三項我想這個署長你也很清楚我希望部長能夠支持部長"},{"start":339.676,"end":349.475,"text":"了解這個我想部長能夠支持我當然支持啊但是要有經費啊這個經費有啦我不曉得有沒有啦這個我了解目前經費這個還可以支持一點"},{"start":352.09,"end":374.403,"text":"這個部分我想我們來跟市府商量因為這生活圈的部分大概都是要靠滾動檢討那所以像這裡面還有一個是八到九米那大概就要符合這一個打通瓶頸的這個路段這我們來跟市府來商量所以這就代表它優先性跟急迫性跟必要性還請署長跟部長解釋另外144號道路也拜託"},{"start":375.803,"end":401.158,"text":"這個進度能不能加快14號是協定區啊 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再次說明向投家報告宣講的行程是民進黨中央所舉辦沒有動用到半分半毫的民脂民膏主計長您下鄉您也是交通費這我們都是行政院交代再交代也對外澄清再澄清嗎沒有動用到任何的公帑 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那進入我的下一頁有四個錯 討論公共政策要本於事實在業黨委員所說的第一錯 還稅愚民就是我剛剛說為什麼是假議題這幾年來 就以2025年眾所說我們的減稅新制會增加到208戶適用免稅 我們減壓減稅 對不對"},{"start":240.819,"end":269.281,"text":"第二個稅收超出預期不是全部都是中央所拿喔在野黨委員提的5283億這個數字他沒有扣除地方沒有扣除指定用途第三錯稅收超出預期不等於總預算的剩餘數這個是基本的嘛為什麼在野黨委員都還要持續帶錯的方向呢因為要優先用於減少舉債或還債第四錯年度剩餘需要經過決算的程序"},{"start":270.282,"end":278.302,"text":"而不是現在就可以來判準我這四點說法是不是都符合真實符合我們的預算運作的法規兩位"},{"start":280.475,"end":297.394,"text":"好謝謝我時間有限下一頁我就講這一個還稅愚民這幾年來我們優化稅制更公平為民眾來減稅減負擔尤其是年輕的家庭以單身上班族的所得未達44.6萬免繳稅這是新制史上新高"},{"start":302.019,"end":323.758,"text":"雙興家庭年所得未達89.2萬免繳稅史上新高雙興育有二名幼兒所得未達146.1萬史上新高我換言之我要說 環稅愚民就是我們做的減稅措施我們希望未來的任何的超收"},{"start":324.719,"end":340.351,"text":"或者是稅收超出預期 普發現金的常態化 萬萬不可因為今天時間非常短 好 謝謝主席 我們後續再討論但是不要再落袋方向 也不要再違憲了 謝謝謝謝 下面請羅民財委員發言 請來 主席各位 出列式觀音堂主席 請主席長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1171,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時29分）謝謝主席。有請主計長及財政部阮次長。"],["主席：陳主計長及阮次長，請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也想分享我的觀點給剛剛質詢的張啓楷委員聽，再次澄清、再次說明。向頭家報告宣講的行程是民進黨中央所舉辦，沒有動用到半分半毫的民脂民膏。主計長，像您下鄉的交通費都是行政院交代再交代，也對外澄清再澄清，沒有動用到任何公帑，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：都沒有，我都自己坐車、坐捷運，我都沒有請司機來載。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以這個要再次澄清，已經澄清多次了，還是有委員要在這裡造謠。","第二個，立法委員的薪水向誰領的？也是國庫嘛！立法委員的助理是誰聘的？也是國家嘛！立法委員的談參，張啓楷委員站在這裡質詢，我想您的談參也應當是受惠於您的研究團隊嘛！所以刮別人鬍子之前先刮刮自己的鬍子，如果立法委員的薪水來自於民脂民膏，但是卻在做很多不符合國家需求的事，我們真的要深自檢討。","好，我回到今天的主題，沒有人在講大罷免，我們在講法案。今天召委所排的是預算法第八十一條，但是同時要併案思考的是，國民黨團另外也提出了一個普發現金的特別條例，在經濟委員會主審。我要說的是：還稅於民是假議題，稅收超出預期是拚經濟有成，而拚經濟有成的經濟發展紅利全民共享，每一分、每一毫都取之於民，用之於民。","因為拚經濟有成，才能夠超收，所以在野黨委員做很多的批判之前，我也希望能夠給予合理評價。全民在民進黨執政的這幾年，在疫情之後，我們挺過了，我們拿出拚經濟的好成績，這是全國人民共同的努力，如果要批判超徵的這件事情，真的要給予合理評價。","吳思瑤主張三件事：第一個，要做任何特別條例的立法或是預算法的修法，不要再違憲了！立法委員不得為增加支出之提議，當然對於指定支出也有待商榷，所以在憲法、預算法、財政紀律法的規範之下，我們真的不要再違憲了，有這個疑慮。第二個，我非常支持財政部所說的，善用科學方法來精進稅收估測，要組成專案小組。現在是不是在進行？有這個強化估測，就能夠更確保未來在估歲入的時候更為精確，這是建設性的solution。第三個，如果真的是拚經濟的成績而有超乎預期的稅收超徵的話，應優先用於擴大國家需求的建設，普發現金不應當常態化。以上是吳思瑤的三點主張，不要再違憲，然後我們要強化估測的科學方法，以及經濟發展的果實由全民共享，請問兩位都同意吧？好。","進入我的簡報下一頁，我認為有四個錯：討論公共政策要本於事實，在野黨委員所說的第一錯是還稅於民，我剛剛為什麼說這是假議題？這幾年來，就以2025年綜所稅來說，我們的減稅新制會增加到208萬戶適用免稅，我們減壓減稅，對不對？第二錯，稅收超出預期不是全部都是中央所拿，在野黨委員提的5,283億這個數字，沒有扣除地方、沒有扣除指定用途。第三錯，稅收超出預期不等於總預算的賸餘數，這個是基本的嘛，為什麼在野黨委員都還要持續帶錯的方向呢？依法要優先用於減少舉債或還債。第四錯，年度賸餘需要經過決算的程序，而不是現在就可以來判準。請問兩位，我這四點說法是不是都符合真實？符合我們的預算運作法規？好，謝謝。","我的發言時間有限，我就講還稅於民。這幾年來我們優化稅制更公平，為民眾減稅減負擔，尤其是年輕的家庭。以新制來說，單身上班族所得未達44.6萬者免繳稅，史上新高！雙薪家庭年所得未達89.2萬者免繳稅，也是史上新高！雙薪育有二名幼兒的家庭所得未達146.1萬免繳稅，也是史上新高。換言之，我要說……"],["主席：好，時間到了。"],["吳委員思瑤：還稅於民就是我們做的減稅措施，我們希望未來任何的超收或是稅收超出預期，普發現金的常態化是萬萬不可！因為今天時間非常短，謝謝主席……"],["主席：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們後續再討論，但是不要再錯帶方向，也不要再違憲了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員的發言。","下一位請羅明才委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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問一下你們現在下鄉用哪一個科目 用掉多少錢我們沒有 我也沒有請司機在啊我們都自己坐車啊我們都沒有用我們沒有用行政院的錢啊 沒有沒有用行政業績沒有用行政業績你看來 我給你看那張圖這個上面有多少是行政部門的人你看一下在那裡一張畫你啊"},{"start":76.836,"end":103.719,"text":"陳金德啊 駱惠主委 彭隨正啊你出門沒有維安人員嗎沒有司機嗎 沒有交通費嗎沒有發行政部門的這個錢嗎我昨天天看你還上台講話你的談餐誰寫的民進黨給你寫的 還是你的母娘給你寫的民進黨還提供你談餐嗎沒有 這我自己寫的"},{"start":105.697,"end":132.324,"text":"喔 主席長會貪財自己寫這不是謊話 就是真的是一個很親民的主席長人民會判斷 會判斷啦今天我們執行重點是不要拿人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的這個大罷免民進黨你要大罷免你有自己的錢啊不要寄生在行政部門主席長 你們部會首長責任很重大你們有很多事情要做"},{"start":133.956,"end":151.163,"text":"你如果說下鄉去當初我們在討論這個事情了專稅改專稅改你們不只創了中華民國的這個首例也是全世界的首例國會跟立法院本來就監督行政部門預算結果你們現在反過來下鄉去"},{"start":153.647,"end":173.778,"text":"這全世界 大概是世界奇蹟行政部門在監督立法院 國會議員審查預算 還大造謠這已經變成一個世界奇蹟了現在更嚴重的你們大半的時間上去的人都在講大罷免你們有發現在整個社會被你們搞得對立整個台灣現在是失業了嗎所有人"},{"start":179.318,"end":202.024,"text":"我們明確的要求,第一,我剛才跟你講一個第一重點,你們是國家的重臣,你們是要為國家謀福利的,你每分錢都是民脂民膏,你娘是我的心碎喔,每分錢都非常重要喔,不管是你的,你看議定要出來,有多少維安人員要動,警察多少人要動,那個場合要動用到多少錢,那個都是國家的錢耶,"},{"start":204.269,"end":214.755,"text":"所以不要又動用我們的資源人民的納稅錢包括剛才剛才說的行政院長或者是每個部委首長去你們談判當然是你幕僚寫的啊來我來請教新規定來新規定啊這種議審這種議審夠得了你審計部嗎這說明總預算"},{"start":229.96,"end":257.575,"text":"那去推動這個大罷免,這些人這花的錢,每分錢,夠得了你審計部嗎?剛剛主計長講,他們每個人都是自己付的費用如果是公家的,我們會了解一下,大概他的這個工作是屬於黨的工作,還是屬於公務的工作,我們會做一個了解"},{"start":257.915,"end":285.601,"text":"所以到時候你要清清楚楚 要查清楚喔到底是用他們自己的錢 還是用公家的錢第二個我剛講更直接了你光是出去維安的人臉那個人事費跟那些動用的錢不是我們人民的民脂民膏嗎 我這有清楚嗎為了你推動大罷免你說你自己沒錢錢出來 老實講我是我剛講的 光是談餐這部分光是維安人臉 這個怎麼不是動用到我們人民的錢好不好 另外"},{"start":287.068,"end":294.195,"text":"現在你們在推動這個大罷免大概用到人民的這個納稅錢多少那個錢要從哪邊來預算科目是什麼要從哪邊去找這個錢出來讓他們辦這個大罷免"},{"start":299.347,"end":318.185,"text":"報告委員我沒有推動大罷免我只是針對我的政策做宣講而已其他我都沒有設法我講到時候要投票啦現在中選會應該沒有這筆錢嘛對不對本來編的沒有這一筆嘛對不對這筆錢要出他目前沒有提出來啦對啊 創案要開始投票要出錢第二億八千對不對這個部分到時候來看來"},{"start":323.342,"end":339.014,"text":"我們到時候再來看 看他的 主委長你有責任啦 至少他可能要12億啊 那個是第二億倍金喔 那是我們救命錢喔好不好 所以當然最理想了以長生為戀 趕快踩煞車 不要再推這個違法而且造成人民的納稅錢被亂花的這個大罷免 謝謝現在請吳世耀委員發言"},{"start":352.455,"end":355.673,"text":"谢谢主席有请主席长也请财政部的阮次长"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1138,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時23分）請主計長跟審計長。"],["主席：請主計長、審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：兩位好。主計長，你們行政院下鄉的宣講，現在連演都不演了，本來說要去說明總預算，現在變成什麼？都在推動大罷免！王義川在那裡高歌推動大罷免，整群人我看大半時間都在推大罷免，你們怎麼用人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的大罷免呢？這符合預算規定嗎？先讓主計長說，來，我先問主計長，你們現在下鄉用哪一個科目？用掉多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有！我也沒有請司機載，我們都自己坐車，我們都沒有用行政院的錢，沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有用行政院的錢？來，我給你看一張圖，這上面有多少是行政部門的人？你看一下，除了院長、你、陳金德，還有陸委會主委邱垂正啊！你們出門沒有維安人員嗎？沒有司機嗎？沒有交通費嗎？沒有花行政部門的錢嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：我前天看你還上臺講話，你的談參是誰寫的？是民進黨幫你寫的，還是你的幕僚幫你寫的？民進黨還提供你談參嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，這我自己寫的。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長的談參是自己寫的？這如果不是謊話，就是真的是一個很親民的主計長，但人民會判斷啦！今天我的質詢重點是：不要拿人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的大罷免！民進黨要大罷免，用自己的錢啊！不要寄生在行政部門。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你們部會首長責任很重大，你們有很多事情要做，你如果下鄉去，當初我們已經在討論這個事情了……你們不只創了中華民國的首例，也是全世界的首例！國會、立法院本來就是監督行政部門的預算，結果你們現在反過來下鄉去，這大概是世界奇蹟！行政部門在監督立法院國會議員審查預算，還大造謠！這已經變成一個世界奇蹟了！現在更嚴重的是，你們大半時間上去的人都在講大罷免，你沒有發現現在整個社會被你們搞得對立，整個臺灣現在是撕裂的嗎？","主計長，我很明確的要求：第一個，我剛才跟你說的第一個重點，你們是國家的重臣，你們要為國家謀福利，你的每一分錢都是民脂民膏，你領的是我們給的薪水，每一分錢都非常重要！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你看院長要出去、你們要出去，有多少維安人員要動？警察有多少人要動？那個場合要動用到多少錢？那個都是國家的錢耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我都用我自己的錢。"],["張委員啓楷：所以不要動用我們的資源、人民的納稅錢，包括剛才說的，行政院長或者是每個部會首長去，你們的談參當然是你們幕僚寫的啊！","我請教審計長，這種預算過得了你審計部嗎？假藉說明總預算去推動大罷免，這些人花的每分錢過得了你審計部嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：剛剛主計長講了，他們每個人都是自己付費，如果是公家的，我們會了解一下他做這個工作是是屬於黨的工作，還是屬於公務的工作？我們會做一個了解。"],["張委員啓楷：所以到時候你要清清楚楚地查清楚喔！到底是用他們自己的錢，還是用公家的錢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我剛剛講得更直接了，你光是出去，維安人員的人事費跟那些動用的錢，不是我們人民的民脂民膏嗎？我這樣講清楚嗎？為了推動大罷免，你說你們沒掏錢出來，老實講，我剛剛講了，光是談參這部分、光是維安人員，這個怎麼不是動用到我們人民的錢，好不好？另外，主計長，我請教你一下，現在你們在推動大罷免，大概用掉多少人民的納稅錢？那筆錢要從哪邊來？預算科目是什麼？要從哪邊去找這筆錢出來讓他們辦大罷免？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我沒有推動大罷免，我只是針對我的政策做宣講而已，其他我都沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，我是說到時候如果要投票啦！目前中選會應該沒有這筆錢嘛，對不對？因為本來並沒有編列這一筆預算，這個費用要從哪裡來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前沒有提出來啊！"],["張委員啓楷：罷免成案以後，如果要投票，要去哪裡找這筆錢？第二預備金，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們到時候再看，他們目前都還沒有提出來。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你有責任啊！至少可能要12億，那個是第二預備金，是我們的就命錢喔！好不好？當然最理想……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：要以蒼生為念，趕快踩煞車，不要再推這個違法且會造成人民納稅錢被亂花的大罷免！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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邀請主席長楊全主席 請"},{"start":10.618,"end":30.082,"text":"我們根據主計總書的資料顯示在2024年全年的消費者物價指數CPI是達到2.18%而且也連續三年突破了2%的通膨警戒線在2025年1月份的CPI更告訴我們是高達2.66%顯示國內的民生經濟能受通膨的衝擊"},{"start":36.463,"end":45.048,"text":"那我們又再看到財政部的統計資料去年全國稅收實增的金額是達到3,7619億較原先的超增數有超增了5,283億是歷年最高的超收紀錄所以在這邊請教超增的稅收"},{"start":64.958,"end":79.042,"text":"主席長,是不是應該要普發現金,還稅漁民呢?請做說明跟委員報告一下,這個5283分到中央的部分是3757那你還累計呢?之前前三年,4000多、4000多、5000多多少啊?"},{"start":84.744,"end":112.132,"text":"沒有,因為114年我們的累積剩餘有部分去支援支印那個特別預算的一個億後的一個特別預算有3900多億所以我們去年在114年度的時候他的剩餘是剩下158億那158億再加上今年的一些剩餘的話目前大概剩下是差不多2000多億那這個部分呢我們也是以這個整個來看的話"},{"start":114.634,"end":115.134,"text":"在4年前我們問你們"},{"start":135.894,"end":150.364,"text":"你們都說超徵的稅收你要去還債第二年再超徵你也說要去還債第三年超收的稅徵你也說是要還債但是累進起來不到一成的還債"},{"start":151.485,"end":179.146,"text":"所以人民在通膨的指數一直增加的情況之下人就希望還稅於民你要慎重的考慮因為現在通膨非常的嚴肅所以在這樣的情況之下我們希望能夠直接受惠人民讓人民有感這是非常的重要所以本期希望的也就是目前為止我們人民的生活你看物價起漲"},{"start":181.383,"end":201.681,"text":"房貸沉重人民的生活壓力這麼這麼的大所以還稅移民是很重要的民主的觀念所以我希望本席希望主席長你審慎考慮之這是人民的民意新生那接下來本席要請教主席長2月26號的時候呢我們發布了經濟的成長率是3.14%"},{"start":208.027,"end":220.117,"text":"那我們從歷年的支出來看今年政府投資成長率是達到6.3%是六年來次高也是過去十年來平均成長數3%的兩倍"},{"start":223.26,"end":236.323,"text":"政府在消費成長率是2.9%也比過去10年平均值的2.2%來得高所以今年政府的消費與政府投資的對經濟成長的貢獻是0.58%那這個比例也是近10年來的第四高顯見中央政府總預算不僅沒有拖累今年的經濟成長"},{"start":247.265,"end":274.208,"text":"仍舊有不小的一個貢獻所以本席要請教主席長聯合國2014年大會的決議他決議說政府統計十大的準則最重要的是什麼是獨立性對不對主席長是獨立性嘛所以主席長你有堅守"},{"start":275.969,"end":290.123,"text":"獨立性捍衛組織處的公信力嗎請說明是 我們一向都是依法辦事那這個部分如果說是今年3.14我們修正本來是3.29但是修正為3.14是因為去年113年度它整個基期墊高"},{"start":296.589,"end":324.009,"text":"他本身本來也是4.26後來墊高到4.59所以墊高了之後才修正往下主席長剛剛我本席也將你們自己所提出的數據很清楚的告訴你他是累進來我們都還是成長雖然你這個下修差了0.15%對不對所以我還是要請你公正性跟獨立性務必要堅守最後一分鐘給我"},{"start":325.37,"end":338.68,"text":"我這個馬上給他就好了誰不能脫謝謝我在這邊我要請沈記長不要了 這個下一次好了我工作給他就好了沈記長 謝謝你站那裡聽就好了站那裡聽就好了因為我們今天還要討論案子一分鐘就好了不要不要就這樣站那裡就好了謝謝好 謝謝下一位請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1111,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時17分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主計長。"],["主席：陳主計長請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長好。我們根據主計總處的資料顯示，2024年全年消費者物價指數（CPI）達到2.18%，而且連續三年突破2%的通膨警戒線，而2025年1月的CPI更高達2.66%，顯示國內民生經濟仍受通膨的衝擊。我們又再看到財政部的統計資料，去年全國稅收實徵淨額達到3兆7,619億，較原預算數超出5,283億，是歷年最高的超收紀錄。所以在這邊請教，關於超徵的稅收，主計長，是不是應該要普發現金、還稅於民呢？請做說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告一下，這5,283億分到中央的部分是3,757億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還累進啊！之前前三年是四千多億、四千多億、五千零多少億，有這麼多啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，因為114年我們的累計賸餘有部分去支應疫後的特別預算三千九百多億，所以我們去年在114年度時的賸餘是剩下158億，這158億再加上今年的賸餘，目前剩下差不多兩千多億。這部分整個來看，5,283億去扣掉那個變成3,753億，3,753億的部分，今年的情況主要是因為我們本來要舉債，但是因為它有現金多收入，所以就沒有去舉債。第二個，我們又還本，所以本身在113年度才剩下一千五百多億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，4年前我們問你們，你們都說超徵的稅收要去還債；第二年再超徵，你也說要去還債；第三年超收的稅收，你也說要還債，但是累計起來還債不到一成！在通膨指數一直增加的情況之下，人民仍舊希望還稅於民，你要慎重地考慮，因為現在通膨非常地嚴重。在這樣的情況之下，我們希望能夠直接讓人民受惠、讓人民有感，這是非常重要的。到目前為止，我們人民的生活，你看，物價齊漲、房貸沉重，人民的生活壓力這麼這麼地大，所以還稅於民是很重要的民主觀念，本席希望主計長審慎考慮之，這是人民的民意、心聲。","接下來本席要請教主計長，2月26號的時候我們發布的經濟成長率是3.14%，從歷年的支出來看，今年政府投資成長率達到6.3%，是6年來的次高，也是過去10年來平均成長率3%的2倍。政府消費成長率是2.9%，也比過去10年平均值的2.2%來得高，所以今年政府消費與政府投資對經濟成長的貢獻是0.58個百分點，這個比例也是近10年來的第四高，顯見中央政府總預算不僅沒有拖累今年的經濟成長，仍舊有不小的貢獻。所以本席要請教主計長，聯合國2014年大會決議提到政府統計的十大準則，最重要的是什麼？是獨立性，對不對，主計長？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是獨立性嘛，所以主計長，你有堅守獨立性，捍衛主計總處的公信力嗎？請說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們一向都依法辦事，這個部分本來是3.29%，之所以修正為3.14%是因為去（113）年度整個基期墊高，它本身本來也是4.26%，後來墊高到4.59%，所以墊高了之後才修正往下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，剛剛本席也將你們自己所提出的數據很清楚地告訴你，它是累進的，我們都還是成長，雖然你這個下修差了0.15%，對不對？所以我還是要請你務必堅守公正性跟獨立性。主席，再給我最後1分鐘。"],["主席：沒有，時間已經到了，時間不能拖！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我這個馬上就好，謝謝。"],["主席：時間不能拖，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再1分鐘，我要請審計長，謝謝。"],["主席：不要啦，下一次好了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我功課給他就好了。審計長，謝謝。"],["主席：你在那裡聽就好了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要啦！請審計長，1分鐘就好了。"],["主席：你在那裡聽就好了，因為我們今天還要討論案子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1分鐘就好了，趕快聽一下啦！他要回答啦！"],["主席：不要、不要、不要，就這樣！站在那裡聽就好了，在那裡聽。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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對不對你剛才面對我 我執行你 你就說不行 這個不行 那個不行通通不行 理工程一來 通通行我對陳正兒主席講 我對你是很尊重的怎麼會不同的委員 答案不一樣 南院北側 到底行不行對不對 然後通通可以 通通可以"},{"start":25.911,"end":45.965,"text":"一般樂園講話我是尊重的我是不插嘴的但是因為你對李昆承的答案跟我的答案一模一樣的問題答案完全不一樣李昆承就完全可以賴思寶的就完全不可以到底是怎麼樣你是中華民國主席長啊你不是民進黨主席長啊好不好請主席啊 這個OK 那主席長要回答但是你知道在我講完之後亞城之前的聲音"},{"start":56.363,"end":74.355,"text":"沒有 我沒有指證你言論啦 我是指證他 我是指證他我不跟你們 我尊重你講話好不好 我尊重你講話 對不對我當主席到現在 第一個 第一次插嘴這個是他的問題跟你們沒有關係 跟你們沒有關係你不要 你不要對他入錯 跟你們沒有關係 OK"},{"start":78.456,"end":94.502,"text":"因為他對你的答案跟我你去吊論袋因為問的問題完全一樣問的問題完全一樣結果他給了答案說不可以給你答案就可以好不好我們繼續執行啦繼續執行來來來請謝謝謝謝主席謝謝主席有請主席長好主委來請委員好"},{"start":105.28,"end":111.294,"text":"主委長我國的整體經濟發展國人的努力是有目共睹的但是最近主計處"},{"start":113.203,"end":136.209,"text":"把今年的經濟成長由原本預測的3.29%下修至3.14%然後說預算遭三減是重要的原因之一你還放話說如果日後追加預算不如預期還會再調降我在這邊要鄭重的跟主席總署說不要恐嚇人民無端的製造恐慌各大智庫最近都上修了我國的經濟成長"},{"start":137.699,"end":160.972,"text":"你們自己公布的資料也顯示今年的經濟活力要比原本預測來得好民間消費 民間投資 出口等成長率全數上修那出口預測甚至比原預測多出了58億美金我們都有明白一個道理內需外貿成長都調升那經濟成長應該要上修哪裡會調降主席總署本次發布的經濟預測媒體的報導都落在"},{"start":164.798,"end":183.743,"text":"三預算削弱成長動能總預算遭三減經濟難保三總預算遭三主計總署下修今年經濟成長沒有人可以認同主委長 難道你要放任一個本應具有公信力的統計機關這樣子造謠恐嚇民眾嗎"},{"start":187.199,"end":204.767,"text":"那我再問就是說你們這一次將經濟成長從3.29%下修到3.14%理由之一是總預算遭三減那未來總預算的追加不如預測還會再調降我想要請你告訴我你們自己公布的數據上顯示民間消費還有這個"},{"start":211.331,"end":234.17,"text":"民間投資出口上修民間投資出口等都比預測值也比原來多58億美金那民間投資方面國內外資庫也都上修了台灣的投資成長預測既然內需外貿都向上調整那請問經濟成長率為什麼不是向上而是向下主委長你說一下"},{"start":235.037,"end":263.786,"text":"是 報告委員因為我們去年經濟成長的數字它已經墊高了所以你相對比較起來今年的數值就會下降那這是主要的因素啦對嘛那當然預算影響是一點點對嘛 墊高的時候我才說像人家央行它上個禮拜的這個理監事會議它公佈的下修2025的經濟成長率為3.05它的理由是有點有據啊它有實際的說明說去年成長率優於預期嘛"},{"start":264.346,"end":286.999,"text":"所以這個就是說他整個電高了機器電高了所以才會這樣子下去你把理由說成是總預算稍三減啦所以政府台灣的經濟發展是要靠政府來帶動政府的支出來帶動嗎是這樣子嗎所以我才說人家央行有直接把這些理由都說明清楚但是主席講"},{"start":287.719,"end":303.964,"text":"我們這邊沒有嘛 對不對你甚至於說用這種方法來製造恐慌總預算遭刪除但是我們被刪除的總預算仍然是史上最高的規模啊大家都知道啊 對不對2.9兆之外再加上超徵的5200多億"},{"start":307.121,"end":322.191,"text":"這個預算規模是有史以來最高的嘛但是你們對外發布的媒體的標題全部都是三減預算削弱成長動能總預算遭三減經濟難保三這些話都是你們放出來的啊不是嗎 主席長"},{"start":323.181,"end":350.623,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為這個部分重點是說因為去年的經濟成長表現很良好所以整個基數墊高這是最主要的因素但是你不能把它整個都講到旁邊去對不對你預算三減有沒有影響我說也有影響也有影響嘛但是影響的數值不是那麼的大是比較小的是這樣但是這樣子的話我大概把它還原原來的一個這個"},{"start":353.546,"end":381.723,"text":"這個說明的一個方向這樣子所以我們要據實告訴我們的民眾不是用這樣子的就一個放話的方式然後用影射的方式把整個理由都把它說成是總預算照刪減那我們現在是有史以來最高規模的總預算政府為什麼沒辦法做事情當初我們賴總統在當行政院長的時候總預算也才不到兩兆啊"},{"start":382.701,"end":384.027,"text":"現在接近三兆"},{"start":385.491,"end":412.379,"text":"為什麼說政府沒有辦法運作好那這個部分我也說明因為我們增加2,806億這個部分的主要是增加在公共建設增加在那個補助健保這些等等那我們刪減是集中在某一些機關的特定業務項目譬如說他的業務費或者是說某一些機關他被刪減到零那等於說他完全沒有機會可以執行所以這個部分才會有執行的困難"},{"start":414.159,"end":440.928,"text":"我們這個主義處把它寫成這些原因經濟成長下修的這些預測然後把它理由推到總預算遭刪減所以你們的意思就是說經濟成長是靠政府花錢來撐不要把人民當笨蛋好不好不要把人民當笨蛋不要忽略國人對我國經濟的努力還有付出好不好主委長你請回主席有請財政部"},{"start":442.646,"end":445.708,"text":"財政部 阮政次 阮市長請市長因為台灣經濟表現超乎預期那稅收超增所以要還稅於民 普發現金讓全民共享經濟成果減輕民眾負擔 穩定民生物價這是112年"},{"start":472.94,"end":490.327,"text":"補發現金六千元的時候當時的行政院長蘇貞昌說的補發現金的理由那我要請教市長因為部長沒有來嘛那一樣的我要請教市長說我們要不要把這些經濟成果來分享給我們的民眾能不能全民共享要不要補發"},{"start":491.567,"end":513.889,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說今年的狀況跟111年的狀況是不太一樣那就是就113年的預算來講那麼時增數超過預算數是3700多億嘛那我們事實上我們也用來這個減少舉債跟先還債那今年也是一樣嗎 那時增數超過5283億啊"},{"start":516.258,"end":537.532,"text":"對 但是那時候的金額比較大而且那時候是有疫情的問題那這一次為什麼112年的時候可以全民分享這樣的經濟成果但是到了現在因為物價房租萬物起漲的情況之下民眾的負擔越來越大但是財政部的態度卻是物是人非 金非喜彼為什麼"},{"start":538.733,"end":553.466,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在的財政狀況雖然是我們的稅收雖然是時增數超過預算數但是這不表示我們財政是有剩餘我跟委員報告從101年到去到112年為止只有3年"},{"start":558.15,"end":572.337,"text":"有財政的剩餘一點點的剩餘其他全部都是赤字所以如果是照目前提到的這些修法案達到一定的門檻以後"},{"start":573.417,"end":600.14,"text":"就一定要發的話我這邊資料103年到112年稅客收入10增進而達到總預算編列9次其中達成率110%以上的有4個年度將這筆超增稅收普發給全體國民有助於緩解民生的負擔那去年超增的部分5283 5千多億扣除還本之後還有剩餘"},{"start":601.061,"end":612.355,"text":"對不對那還有剩餘的話為什麼112年可以共享這種經濟成果為什麼今年就不行那行政院行政院主任長也表示要將普發現金列入討論"},{"start":613.618,"end":630.268,"text":"要略無討論喔 所以財政部難道要跟他唱反調嗎因為其實我們 我剛才講就是說就111年度那一年的財政的剩餘達到3500多億那在113年的財政剩餘大概不到他的一半"},{"start":632.33,"end":649.009,"text":"所以在另外一個就是說114年那時候有疫情的問題所以那時候是因為那時候經濟表現不錯所以在財政也可以所以那時候才會有普發現金再加上其他的一些振興的措施"},{"start":651.731,"end":675.137,"text":"政府的財源來自於人民當人民生活困難而我們經濟成長又帶來了這個超額的稅收理當讓人民共享這樣的經濟成果不該僅用說這個我們未來預備未來的未知之初用這個理由來"},{"start":677.657,"end":698.792,"text":"把它掩蓋掉那普發現金這也是多數人而且政府現在我們行政院院長也將列入討論所以我想請教財政部支不支持我們財政部是這樣我們負責這個稅入的籌措至於說有關的稅出這一部分比如說剛才講的"},{"start":699.893,"end":721.798,"text":"我們就是列入稅計剩餘那一部分要什麼運用稅收是來自全民的貢獻所以應該要優先考量全民的利益做普發現金讓經濟成長真正匯集到每一位國民有關稅計剩餘那一部分我們是覺得說要有主管機關那麼依照施政的優先順序來做考量好 謝謝有問的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1075,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（12時7分）謝謝主席，主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：主計長請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，我國的整體經濟發展，國人的努力是有目共睹，但是最近主計處把今年的經濟成長由原本預測的3.29%下修至3.14%，然後說預算遭刪減是重要的原因之一，你還放話說如果日後追加預算不如預期，還會再調降。我在這邊要鄭重地跟主計總處說，不要恐嚇人民，無端地製造恐慌！各大智庫最近都上修了我國的經濟成長，你們自己公布的資料也顯示今年的經濟活力要比原本預測的來得好，民間消費、民間投資、出口等成長率全數上修，出口預測甚至比原預測多出了58億美金。我們都很明白一個道理，內需、外貿成長都調升，經濟成長應該要上修，哪裡會調降？主計總處本次發布的經濟預測，媒體的報導都落在刪預算削弱成長動能；總預算遭刪減，經濟難保3；總預算遭刪，主計總處下修今年經濟成長。沒有人可以認同。主計長，難道你要放任一個本應具有公信力的統計機關這樣子造謠、恐嚇民眾嗎？","接下來我要再問，你們這一次將經濟成長從3.29%下修到3.14%，理由之一是總預算遭刪減，未來總預算的追加不如預測，還會再調降。我想要請你告訴我，你們自己公布的數據上顯示，民間消費、出口等預測值也比原來的多58億美金，而民間投資方面，國內外智庫也都上修了臺灣的投資成長預測。既然內需外貿都向上調整，請問經濟成長率為什麼不是向上而是向下？主計長，你說一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為去年經濟成長的數字已經墊高了，所以相對比較起來今年的數值就會下降，這是主要的因素，當然預算的影響是一點點。"],["顏委員寬恒：對嘛！所以我才說像央行上個禮拜理監事會議公布下修2025年的經濟成長率為3.05%，其理由是有理有據，他們有實際說明去年成長率優於預期，就是它整個墊高了、基期墊高了，因此才會做這樣子的下修；而你不是，你把理由說成是總預算遭刪減，所以臺灣的經濟發展是要靠政府的支出來帶動嗎？是這樣子嗎？我才說央行有直接把這些理由都說明清楚，但是主計長，你們這邊沒有，對不對？你甚至用這種方法來製造恐慌！雖然總預算遭刪除，但是被刪除的總預算仍然是史上最高規模，大家都知道，對不對？2.9兆之外，再加上超徵的五千兩百多億，這個預算規模是有史以來最高的。但是你們對外發布的媒體標題全部都是刪減預算、削弱成長動能；總預算遭刪減、經濟難保3。這些話都是你們放出來的，不是嗎？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員說明一下，重點在於因為去年的經濟成長表現得很良好，所以整個基數墊高，這是最主要的因素，但是……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，但是你不能整個都講到旁邊去，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有人也問到預算刪減有沒有影響？我說也有影響……"],["顏委員寬恒：也有影響，但是你不是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是影響的數值不是那麼大，是比較小，我大概把它還原原來的說明方向。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以你們要據實告訴民眾，而不是用這樣子的放話方式、影射方式，把整個理由都說成是總預算遭刪減……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在是有史以來最高規模的總預算，政府為什麼沒辦法做事情？當初賴總統在當行政院院長的時候，總預算也才不到2兆啊！現在接近3兆，為什麼說政府沒有辦法運作？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我也說明，我們增加2,806億的部分，主要是增加在公共建設、補助健保等等；而刪減是集中在某一些機關的特定業務項目，譬如其業務費或者是某一些機關被刪減到零，等於它完全沒有經費可以執行，所以這個部分才會有執行上的困難。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，主計總處把它寫成這些原因，經濟成長下修的這些預測，然後把它的理由推到總預算遭刪減，所以你們的意思就是說經濟成長是靠政府花錢來撐？不要把人民當笨蛋，好不好？不要把人民當笨蛋、不要忽略國人對我國經濟的努力及付出，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，你請回。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主席，有請財政部阮政次。"],["主席：阮次長請。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長，因為臺灣經濟表現超乎預期而稅收超徵，所以要還稅於民、普發現金，讓全民共享經濟成果、減輕民眾負擔、穩定民生物價，這是112年普發現金6,000元時，當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌說的普發現金理由。我要請教次長，我們要不要把這些經濟成果分享給我們的民眾？能不能全民共享、要不要普發？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，今年的狀況跟111年的狀況是不太一樣。就113年的預算來講，實徵數超過預算數是三千七百多億，事實上我們也先減少舉債跟先還債。"],["顏委員寬恒：今年也是一樣，實徵數超過5,283億，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，但是那時候的金額比較大，而且那時候是有疫情的問題，這一次……"],["顏委員寬恒：為什麼112年的時候可以全民分享這樣的經濟成果？到了現在，在物價、房租、萬物齊漲的情況之下，民眾的負擔越來越大，可是財政部的態度卻是物是人非、今非昔比，為什麼？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，現在的財政狀況，我們的稅收雖然是實徵數超過預算數，但是這不表示財政是有賸餘。我跟委員報告，從101年到112年為止，只有3年有財政賸餘，是一點點的賸餘，其他全部都是赤字。如果照目前提到的修正草案，達到一定門檻後就一定要發的話……"],["顏委員寬恒：據我這邊的資料，103年到112年稅課收入實徵淨額達到總預算編列的有9次，其中達成率110%以上的有4個年度，將這筆超徵稅收普發給全體國民，有助於緩解民生負擔。去年超徵部分有五千多億，扣除還本之後還有賸餘，對不對？還有賸餘的話，為什麼112年可以共享這種經濟成果，為什麼今年就不行？行政院卓院長也表示要將普發現金列入討論，財政部難道要跟他唱反調嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我剛才講的是，111年度的財政賸餘達到三千五百多億，而113年的財政賸餘大概不到它的一半。另外，111年有疫情的問題，而且那時候是因為經濟表現不錯，而財政也可以，所以那時候才會有普發現金，再加上其他的一些振興措施，因此情況是完全不一樣的。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長，政府的財源來自於人民，當人民生活困難，而經濟成長又帶來了超額的稅收，理當讓人民共享這樣子的經濟成果，不該僅用預備未來的未知支出的理由來把它掩蓋掉，普發現金也是給多數人，而且現在行政院院長也將其列入討論，所以我想請教，財政部支不支持？"],["阮次長清華：財政部負責歲入的籌措，至於歲出這一部分，比如剛才講的，列入歲計賸餘那一部分要怎麼運用，我們認為……"],["顏委員寬恒：稅收是來自全民的貢獻，所以應該要優先考量全民的利益，因此普發現金，讓經濟成長真正惠及每一位國民。"],["阮次長清華：有關歲計賸餘部分，我們覺得要由主管機關依照施政的優先順序來做衡量。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員的質詢。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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因為我是說這個政策的決定是要由院長來決定但是如果說這個部分預算法要把它"},{"start":53.952,"end":75.626,"text":"修正為常態化來劃現金這個部分是不可行我們是建議不要如此來做所以主計總署的建議是說不希望發現金常態化所以對於等一下有可能會討論到的這個預算法的修正案主計總署的看法 主計長的看法"},{"start":76.386,"end":96.954,"text":"因為他花現金常態化以後就失去了彈性而且花現金是針對特殊的一個目的所以我們都訂特別的條例來執行等特別條例通過以後我們才來編預算好那所以第一個主席是不支持這個運算法的這個修正案在議長所提的這個修正案就對了"},{"start":97.912,"end":110.688,"text":"我們原則上是不希望這樣子來修正因為這樣修正讓我們以後的一個政策就比較執行就沒有彈性好那第二個也沒有所謂的九月之後就可以連到普發現金一萬塊"},{"start":111.994,"end":126.282,"text":"我覺得這個要說明一下因為我看到很多媒體的標都寫成這樣子114年度的預算現在執行了我們不可能在9月發現金所以這個部分那再來另外如果115年的部分現在目前還沒有籌編預算還沒有籌編"},{"start":128.68,"end":151.781,"text":"那我想你已經說很清楚了那也讓很多媒體更了解說這個主計長的說法是怎麼樣好 那我再請教一下主計長首先我先肯定你就是說我也鼓勵我們的內閣的閣員能夠下鄉去跟民眾把政策說清楚那所以不論是這個主計長或是其他的內閣閣員"},{"start":153.422,"end":173.434,"text":"在這個行政院有哪些政策需要跟民眾說得清楚那行政院因為有什麼樣的預算受到了刪減以至於呢沒辦法做到哪些事情哪些建設遇到了阻礙我都希望除了在立法院說明之外能夠下項去說清楚所以我是肯定這個主計長包含其他的內閣的閣員到這個"},{"start":176.676,"end":198.929,"text":"下鄉去把這個政策說清楚我也歡迎啊3月30號我們在板橋下午2點U舉辦一個說明會主席長有空也歡迎主席長一起過來我們把這個政策把它說清楚好那個請教一下這個總統啊在3月21號的時候已經公佈了這個總預算跟才化法了嘛那"},{"start":200.595,"end":215.844,"text":"在公布之前當然行政院有提出致愛難行的理由,不過很可惜,副議案沒有過那您行政院所提出來致愛難行的理由也包括第一個這一次的總運算並沒有最後宣告出來說這個三減數的金額跟稅數的總額沒有嘛,對不對"},{"start":225.508,"end":239.182,"text":"這過去都沒有嘛過去都會說你三減的金額是多少總三減金額是多少稅數總額是多少今年沒有沒有那這個還有一個自行調整的差了636億元嘛對不對那請問一下這636億怎麼辦"},{"start":244.551,"end":270.181,"text":"所以這個部分我們要進行刪減部分這個部分是有困難的所以我們要整個要詢問給立法院來跟他報告說這個部分是不是可以進行協商或者是說我將來如果說要怎麼樣來做這個部分的一個刪減或者是刪減以後要將來如何追加這個部分都是需要協商的一個部分所以理論上"},{"start":271.441,"end":295.864,"text":"這個立法委員審議預算覺得說哪個預算有問題這邊刪那邊刪私書有名嘛那我看到其實那天在審訊預算的時候我覺得說那所謂的這個自行調整有差了這636億我就不知道說讓你們要怎麼自行去做調整啊因為這個東西已經嚴重的限制到說這一個行政權利嘛對不對"},{"start":296.725,"end":322.439,"text":"調整是有困難的所以如果真正刪減之後可能造成某一部分的執行或者業務執行非常的困難請問要刪誰的?要刪交通部的?要刪內政部的?這沒有辦法去做決定嘛所以局長是說這個會在行文給立法院要做這個636億要怎麼樣去做?對 進行請立法院來協助那大概哪時候會行文到立法院?大概近期就會發文了"},{"start":324.127,"end":335.838,"text":"然後呢 因為治安難行嘛 我看這個監察院他們已經致力救濟了他們預計要在今天提出這個釋憲跟暫時處分那請問一下行政院後續的救濟途徑"},{"start":338.171,"end":365.316,"text":"原則上這個部分 因為監察院它是有一些是3到0所以它有一些水電費相關的一個費用它支付有困難那所以這個部分因為事實上如果要等到6月份追加預算通過的話它還是時間太長所以我們在這當中我們就先會報請行政院來動之第二預備金來做支印那暫時支印到6月份然後等到追加預算如果有通過再行來把它補足"},{"start":366.195,"end":381.492,"text":"所以現在這部分的話就是先用這個動資第二預備金就對了我們會報行政院來申請動資第二預備金這個流程然後再來會再辦理追加預算的一個部分目前行政院的救濟程序是這樣子"},{"start":382.582,"end":409.977,"text":"另外一個救濟的一個途徑是怎麼樣這個部分我也必須要看行政院整個一個他一個研議的一個情形就你們的部分來講就是第二預備金那請問一下因為我看有很多的這個預算案的解凍的條件複雜度也蠻高難度也蠻高的說要用到這個凍結70%要執行30%之後才可以用那有些在委員會有些還要在院會"},{"start":411.498,"end":437.652,"text":"請問一下主計總署這個有沒有這個刪除或凍結預算在這裡有 我們凍結40%然後要用到剩下說就是等於說執行到這個部分才能夠去報請凍結那當中就有時間的落差那時候有一些業務就沒有辦法那你們可以提早送來立法院嗎因為我看很多委員他們現在或許有罷免的壓力了"},{"start":438.852,"end":455.381,"text":"還沒有說我們沒有刪除只是凍結啊趕快送來立法院我們解凍就好啦報告委員院長有下令大概一個月內全部把凍結的案子報到立法院請求我希望你們各部會都把被凍結的預算送來立法院是"},{"start":456.661,"end":483.189,"text":"這個雖然它有規定說你要用到多少才能報但是我認為緩不及急而且這個政策是有延續性的啊怎麼可能說我剛好用到30%最後再用70%不可能嘛希望在一個月之內把這些解凍案送來立法院我相信這個大家都可以看因為我看到很多國民黨的立委現在在這地方都在講沒有啊我們沒有刪除只是凍結啊好凍結那就來解凍看哪個委員不同意凍結嘛"},{"start":485.09,"end":493.517,"text":"不要在這個地方上是說的一套在立法院就說的是另外一套好 大家請教一下這個 足跡總數預測今年的經濟成長率是3.14%"},{"start":497.594,"end":515.708,"text":"那中央銀行是下修到3.05%因為央行總裁是認為說這個美國經貿政策的不確定性有提高那我請問一下你比較樂觀你是3.14%但是如果凍結預算刪除預算對GDP有沒有影響"},{"start":516.943,"end":536.659,"text":"有 有影響有什麼樣的影響就是因為我們本身一個如果資本性的支出被刪減了那將來投資就會減少那這個整個譬如說公共建設的部分減少那也會有影響那所以這個部分呢影響的雖然就是說等於說影響差不多0.15左右啦"},{"start":537.299,"end":555.273,"text":"那但是這個還有一個636這個部分我們是還沒有把它估進去那這個部分如果再估進去還是會有影響0.2到0.3左右那這個部分呢我們如果將來有再追加它就會回來如果沒有那就是會影響到GDP整個一個情形"},{"start":557.148,"end":561.15,"text":"那所以本來是預估3.14%比較樂觀啦但是呢如果是東扣西扣有被刪除的預算有被凍結的預算那還有636億不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":570.677,"end":591.698,"text":"扣掉這些之後你還能樂觀的說能夠維持在3%以上嗎因為這個部分目前就是說原來那個美國的一個部分這個變動的因素也還沒有完全扣進去所以這個部分但是我們一二月的出口的狀況非常的好所以這個部分應該我們今年的一個經濟是穩定的成長的"},{"start":593.075,"end":617.395,"text":"但是整個凍結跟刪除預算大概你這樣加一加大概會影響到幾%0.2到0.3左右啦0.2到0.3那扣掉的話就沒有3了啊保3就很難啊我們會盡量這個部分因為像出口部分是狀況即使是今年真的還不錯一二月都還不錯那再請教一下最後一個問題在野黨現在要砍掉2000億台幣的補助對於CPI有沒有影響"},{"start":620.657,"end":636.67,"text":"時間到了再三十秒讓主計長來回答一下就好了也是會有影響大概有可能如果這樣的話有可能會超過二啦會超過二就對了謝謝李委員的資訊下一位請顏光文跟主計長報告啊你不可以針對不同委員的答案不一樣啊我剛才問你的時候"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時54分）謝謝主席，主計長要先喝口水嗎？不用，那就請主計長。"],["主席：主計長，請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好，辛苦了。我先提問的問題跟剛剛王世堅委員的提問是一樣的。因為剛剛看到報導，很多新聞媒體的標題都寫：最快今年9月就可以領到普發現金1萬塊，他們說是從你的資料上面推估出來的。你的資料上面有寫「115年度中央政府總預算案……將於本（114）年8月底前送大院審議」，他是從這個推斷出全民最快9月可以領到普發現金1萬塊，還是剛剛你回答委員的質詢當中有提到，最快9月可以領到現金1萬塊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，我是說這個政策的決定是要由院長來決定，但如果預算法要把這部分修正為常態化發現金，這個部分不可行，我們建議不要如此做。"],["李委員坤城：所以主計總處的建議是不希望發現金常態化？對於等一下有可能會討論到的預算法修正案，主計總處主計長的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：發現金常態化以後就失去彈性，而且發現金是針對特殊目的，所以都會訂特別條例來執行，等特別條例通過以後，我們才來編預算。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以第一個，主計長是不支持預算法的修正案，就是在野黨所提的修正案就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是不希望這樣子修正，因為這樣修正讓以後的政策執行就沒有彈性。"],["李委員坤城：第二個，也沒有所謂9月之後就可以領到普發現金1萬塊？我覺得這要說明一下，因為我看到很多媒體的標題都寫成這樣。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，114年度的預算現在在執行了，我們不可能在9月發現金，所以這個部分……再來，115年的部分目前預算還沒有籌編。"],["李委員坤城：好，我想你已經說得很清楚了，也讓很多媒體更了解主計長的說法是怎麼樣。","我再請教一下主計長，首先，我先肯定你，我也鼓勵內閣閣員能夠下鄉跟民眾把政策說清楚。不論是主計長或是其他的內閣閣員，在行政院有哪些政策需要跟民眾說清楚，行政院因為有什麼樣的預算受到刪減，以致於沒辦法做到哪些事情、哪些建設遇到了阻礙，我都希望除了在立法院說明之外，能夠下鄉去說清楚。所以我是肯定主計長，包含其他的內閣閣員下鄉把政策說清楚。3月30號下午兩點我們在板橋也有舉辦一場說明會，主計長有空，也歡迎主計長一起過來，我們把政策說清楚。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下，總統在3月21日的時候已經公布總預算及財劃法了，在公布之前，當然行政院有提出窒礙難行的理由，不過很可惜覆議案沒有過。行政院所提出來窒礙難行的理由也包括，第一個，這次總預算最後並沒有宣告刪減數金額及歲出總額，沒有，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：這是過去沒有的！過去都會說總刪減金額是多少、歲出總額是多少，今年沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：還有一個自行調整的差了636億元，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：請問一下，這636億怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是我們要自行刪減的部分，這部分是有困難的，所以我們要行文給立法院報告說這個部分是不是可以進行協商？或者是將來要怎麼樣做這部分的刪減？或者是刪減以後將來如何追加？這些都需要協商。"],["李委員坤城：所以理論上，立法委員審議預算，覺得哪個預算有問題，這邊刪、那邊刪，師出有名。但那天在審總預算的時候，我看到所謂的自行調整差了636億，我就不知道那你們要怎麼自行調整？因為這個東西已經嚴重限制到行政權力，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：調整是有困難的，如果真正刪減之後，可能造成某一部分的執行或者業務的執行非常困難。"],["李委員坤城：要刪誰的？請問要刪誰的？要刪交通部的還是要刪內政部的？這沒有辦法去做決定嘛！所以主計長是說會再行文給立法院，要針對這636億怎麼樣去做……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，請立法院來協助。"],["李委員坤城：大概什麼時候會行文到立法院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們大概近期就會發文了。"],["李委員坤城：好。因為窒礙難行，我看監察院已經自立救濟了，他們預計要在今天提出釋憲及暫時處分，請問一下行政院後續的救濟途徑為何？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為監察院有一些是刪到零，以致支付水電費等相關費用有困難。如果要等到6月份追加預算通過，時間還是太久，所以在這當中，我們就先會報請行政院動支第二預備金來支應，暫時支應到6月份，等到追加預算如果有通過，再行補足。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在這部分就是先動支第二預備金就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會報行政院來申請動支第二預備金的流程，再來會辦理追加預算。"],["李委員坤城：目前行政院的救濟程序是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：另外一個救濟途徑是怎麼樣，這個部分我也必須要看行政院整個研議的情形來做因應……"],["李委員坤城：就你們的部分來講就是第二預備金？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就我們的部分是這樣子。"],["李委員坤城：好。請問一下，因為我看有很多的預算案解凍條件複雜度也蠻高的、難度也蠻高的，說凍結的70%，要執行30%之後才可以用，有些在委員會、有些還要在院會。請問一下，主計總處有沒有被刪除或凍結的預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，我們凍結40%，然後要執行到這個部分才能夠去報請解凍，當中就有時間的落差，所以有一些業務就沒有辦法執行。"],["李委員坤城：那你們可以提早送來立法院嗎？因為我看很多委員他們現在或許有罷免的壓力了，他們又說我們沒有刪除，只是凍結，趕快送來立法院，我們解凍就好啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，院長有下令，大概一個月內把凍結的案子全部報到立法院，請求立法院協助。"],["李委員坤城：我希望你們各部會都把被凍結的預算送來立法院。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：雖然它有規定你要用到多少才能報，但是我認為緩不濟急，而且政策是有延續性的，怎麼可能說剛好用到30%，最後再用70%？不可能嘛！希望在一個月之內把這些解凍案送來立法院。我相信，大家都可以看，因為我看到很多國民黨的立委現在在地方都在講：沒有啊，我們沒有刪除，只是凍結。好，凍結，那就來解凍，看哪個委員不同意解凍！不要在地方上說了一套，在立法院說的又是另外一套。","再請教一下，主計總處預測今年的經濟成長率是3.14%，中央銀行是下修到3.05%，央行總裁認為美國經貿政策的不確定性有提高。我請問一下，你比較樂觀，也是3.14%，但凍結預算、刪除預算對GDP有沒有影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，有影響。"],["李委員坤城：有什麼樣的影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果我們本身的資本性支出被刪減了，將來投資就會減少，譬如說公共建設的部分減少，也會有影響，這個部分影響的雖然……就是影響差不多是0.15%左右，但還有一個636億的部分我們是還沒有把它估進去，這個部分如果再估進去，還是會有影響0.2%到0.3%左右。這個部分如果將來有再追加，它就會回來；如果沒有，那就是會影響到GDP。"],["李委員坤城：所以你本來是預估3.14%……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是比較樂觀。"],["李委員坤城：但如果是東扣、西扣，有被刪除的預算、有被凍結的預算，還有636億不知道怎麼辦，扣掉這些之後，你還能樂觀地說能夠維持在3%以上嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為有關美國變動因素的部分，原本也還沒有完全估進去，但因為我們1、2月的出口狀況非常好，所以我們今年的經濟應該是穩定成長的。"],["李委員坤城：但是整個凍結跟刪除預算的部分，你這樣加一加大概會影響到百分之幾？"],["陳主計長淑姿：差不多0.2%到0.3%左右。"],["李委員坤城：0.2%到0.3%？那扣掉的話就沒有3%了，保3就很難了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會儘量，因為今年出口的狀況其實是真的還不錯，1、2月都還不錯。"],["李委員坤城：再請教一下最後一個問題，在野黨現在要砍掉2,000億的台電補助，對於CPI有沒有影響？"],["主席：時間到了，時間到了。"],["李委員坤城：好，再30秒，讓主計長來回答一下就好了。"],["主席：精簡好不好？"],["李委員坤城：好，精簡回答。"],["陳主計長淑姿：也是會有影響，如果這樣的話有可能會超過2%。"],["李委員坤城：會超過2%就對了？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。","跟主計長報告，你不可以針對不同委員的答案不一樣！我剛才問你的時候就講追加減預算plus第二預備金，你都說不行，結果對李坤城，你都說行，怎麼會這樣子呢？答案到底是行不行？你剛才面對我，我質詢你，你就說不行，這個不行、那個不行、通通不行；李坤城一來，通通行！我對陳主計長，我對你是很尊重的，怎麼會不同的委員答案不一樣，南轅北轍？到底行不行？現在變成通通可以。一般委員講話我是尊重的、我是不插嘴的；但是因為你對李坤城的答案跟我的答案，一模一樣的問題，答案完全不一樣！李坤城就完全可以，賴士葆就完全不可以，到底是怎麼樣？你是中華民國主計長，你不是民進黨主計長，好不好？","顏委員請。"],["李委員坤城：主席，這個可以讓主計長回答，但是你不要在我講完之後，跟之前陳玉珍一樣，有在指責我的意味。"],["主席：沒有，我沒有指正你，我是指正他，我尊重你講話，好不好？我尊重你講話。我當主席到現在，第一次插嘴！這是他的問題，跟你沒有關係，跟你沒有關係，你不要對號入座，跟你沒有關係，OK？"],["李委員坤城：你講了好幾次李坤城，我要怎麼不對號入座？"],["主席：不是，因為他對你的答案跟我……你去調錄音帶，因為問的問題完全一樣，問的問題完全一樣，結果他給我的答案說不可以，給你的答案就可以。好，我們繼續質詢。"],["李委員坤城：……問的問題有一樣嗎？"],["主席：來，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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可以這樣子嗎我跟你講 我認為啦推行有效益的政策才是還稅於民不是這樣嗎所以我今天跟你要求的第一點"},{"start":82.386,"end":88.77,"text":"我要求你主祭處 你要有擔當 不要再講一些不痛不癢的話不要認為說 啊 發發現金 好啦 這個也無傷大雅錯了 要發現金可以"},{"start":102.25,"end":113.587,"text":"那要特別條例而不是設在預算法去把整個預算法是把我們所有收入預算常態化耶你看過去"},{"start":115.1,"end":138.397,"text":"蔡英文總統的時候發了幾次人家是因為有疫情疫後有特別條例也經過全民多數的民眾的民意不是這樣嗎那如果今天我們是要修預算法增加這個條例基本上常態化就是不對了嘛這一點你一定要堅持啊"},{"start":138.797,"end":161.684,"text":"是所以我希望你有擔當擔起來而且最短時間內做出決策不要讓在這個事情讓大家政府也好民間也好心裡有疙瘩啊大家為了這個事情爭論不休忐忑不安我認為不要這個樣子第二點我要告訴你的就是說倒是倒是我們要來"},{"start":167.995,"end":186.267,"text":"這個推動有益的政策啦我認為應該編列特別條例特別預算來針對貼補台電貼補勞健保的缺口貼補長照基金這才是有意義的啊不是這樣嗎我舉勞保就好勞保預估2070年"},{"start":190.834,"end":203.736,"text":"我們的基金總數將是餘額將是負的71.4兆那將就我們國家EDB的三倍天啊天啊"},{"start":204.633,"end":233.227,"text":"所以這個貼補勞保健保這才是應當貼補台電這一次給他們台電一千億這樣免於電價漲價如果政府吸收一千億給台電那就是一千億如果政府不貼補不吸收放給民間去漲的話那就不會是一千億那會變成兩千億三千億的社會負擔所以這個"},{"start":234.668,"end":237.518,"text":"非常要緊不是嗎 還有我們長照基金啊"},{"start":238.659,"end":256.408,"text":"長照基金 哇 也是一個非常大的缺口啦我相信你已經知道嘛長照基金去年的基金來源 欸 入不敷出啊去年基金來源776億結果實際支出高達828億今年你們預估基金來源752億但是用途支出更高達879億不是這樣嗎"},{"start":266.573,"end":291.629,"text":"所以如果照這個預算的話那2028年長照基金就完全用完不是嗎所以我認為這些有意義的政策才是真的環碎於民這也是我們設政府的目的是不是那你的看法呢第一點我真的你剛才"},{"start":293.151,"end":298.916,"text":"其實我們原則上我們都是不支持他發放現金常態化依照發放現金他有特殊的目的所以以往都是定"},{"start":316.952,"end":339.702,"text":"特別條例然後之後通過之後才編列預算所以這個部分如果常態化的話他整個影響整個預算的一個執行的彈性所以我們原則上我們是不支持的對那所以你公正囉所謂的九月可能發放現金你的看法呢"},{"start":340.953,"end":362.606,"text":"你要講得更明確一點啊我知道當然不支持啊常態化就我剛剛講嘛常態化無法保持政府對預算運用的彈性嘛我們會碰到很多社會經濟情勢的變化碰到重大的災情啊等等啊不是嗎疫情啊所以當然不要常態化這是一定的"},{"start":363.624,"end":373.964,"text":"是但是你要針對我說你今天上午剛才被報導的這個啦九月講得很明九月就要發放現金你的看法呢"},{"start":374.551,"end":400.431,"text":"不是 因為我們是說整個一個政策一個優先順序的排列必須由各部會來跟院長報告由院長來做裁示我們當時的部分是說這整個的一個政策是不是要列入政策還是那發放現金一萬元也是你們要跟院長報告的所謂政策之一囉你們決定的因為發放現金不是我們在負責主導但是他現在要修改一個預算法我們是認為我跟你講喔"},{"start":400.971,"end":411.019,"text":"那個主技術還有幾項其實我就舉你們很多預估其實錯誤你們預估去年的GDP最早在前年底的時候你們最早預估的時候說3.35%"},{"start":413.411,"end":440.717,"text":"結果幾次修正以後有提高去年GDP多少4.59%跟你原始的預估差了一點多那我為什麼提這件事情那個主計處我為什麼提這個事情你說三減預算導致政府支出減少導致我們GDP可能下降但是那個差0點多而已所以我是要告訴你第一點我們政府現在財政部"},{"start":441.536,"end":457.209,"text":"我先前質詢之後人家財政部已經積極去推動乙類公債要把我們在海外的授權資金引進回台灣加速台灣的公共建設第二點金管會也通過了不動產證券化REACH"},{"start":459.59,"end":483.09,"text":"歷史這個已經條例也通過要這麼做 也是引進民間資金當有這兩大民間資金的來源進駐到 溢出到我們國內建設的時候我相信我們的GDP會更樂觀那更樂觀的結果 那我們就不必發現金不是嗎那是因為疫情導致GDP下降"},{"start":484.111,"end":501.939,"text":"所以政府才發放現金嘛所以你講的這個預算去影響到GDP導致政府支出去下滑影響GDP第一個我認為那個維吾其第二個你的下滑運送的需要需要發現金了嘛不是嗎所以我希望主技術"},{"start":503.956,"end":519.346,"text":"你不必做任何遮掩你不必為任何已經既定的方向不必你就據實以告好不好因為我看你的個性你也是一個很坦然的人啊我看你先前的做事也是這樣嘛"},{"start":520.927,"end":536.86,"text":"我們就正大光明坦坦然然的面對事實證據還有數據我希望這個數據不要再那麼離譜可不可以你去看一下你前年底你就講3.35你歷來一直修正結果最後4.59差了1.24"},{"start":546.523,"end":564.941,"text":"這個不可謂不大那我希望在這個部分你收回今天早上如果這些媒體的報導是曲解的話我希望待會收回之後你就跟這些媒體溝通希望他們收回這樣子的報導因為事實上"},{"start":565.953,"end":581.249,"text":"沒有這樣子的一回事說確定啦就是要發放啦就是已經作業中啦然後9月要發放這是給我們社會不必要的莫名其妙的額外的一種"},{"start":582.327,"end":610.992,"text":"期待不必要這麼做好不好主計處的任務就是實話實說那精準的數據掌握跟分析然後忠實的向社會大眾報告然後做出應有的政府決策可不可以好不好主計長送你四個字啦認作"},{"start":613.295,"end":614.076,"text":"李昆成議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":952,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時43分）謝謝主席，我請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：主計長，剛才你在回答前幾位委員質詢時所說的，新聞媒體做的解釋就是大概確定要普發現金1萬元，所以我不懂我們後續還要質詢你什麼。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有、沒有。"],["王委員世堅：如果那樣子的報導曲解了你的意思，我認為你應該要適度的澄清。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：剛才幾家主流媒體都已經這樣報導，我希望你……"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，我並沒有這樣……"],["王委員世堅：我簡單講，如果都要發現金，主計長，我現在就可以告訴你，那乾脆3兆1,000億就普發給2,300萬個人民，政府解散算了嘛！不是嗎？解散算了啊！那不是全民皆大歡喜？可以這樣子嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不，我們不支持這個條文的修正。"],["王委員世堅：我跟你講，我認為推行有效益的政策才是還稅於民，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以我今天跟你提出要求，第一點，我要求你們主計總處要有擔當，不要再講一些不痛不癢的話，不要認為說可以發發現金，因為這個也無傷大雅，錯了！要發現金可以，但是要通過特別條例，而不是規定在預算法，預算法是把我們所有收入預算常態化耶！你看過去在蔡英文總統的時候發了幾次？人家是因為有疫情，有疫後特別條例，也是全民、多數民眾的民意，不是這樣嗎？如果今天我們是要修預算法、增加這個條例，基本上，常態化就是不對了嘛！這一點你一定要堅持啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以我希望你要有擔當，要擔起來，而且要在最短的時間內做出決策，不要讓政府、民間因為這個事情而心裡有疙瘩，大家為了這個事情爭論不休、忐忑不安，我認為不要這個樣子。","第二點，我要告訴你，就是我們倒是要來推動有益的政策，我認為應該通過特別條例、編列特別預算來貼補台電、貼補勞健保的缺口，還有貼補長照基金，這才是有意義的，不是這樣嗎？我舉勞保就好，勞保基金預估在2070年的基金餘額將是負的71.4兆，將近是我們國家GDP的3倍。天啊！天啊！所以貼補勞保、健保才是應當的，如果是貼補台電，這一次給台電1,000億，這樣免於電價漲價，如果政府吸收1,000億給台電，那就是1,000億；如果政府不貼補、不吸收，放給民間去漲的話，那就不會是1,000億，那會變成2,000億、3,000億的社會負擔，所以這個非常要緊，不是嗎？還有我們的長照基金，長照基金也是有一個非常大的缺口，我相信你已經知道，長照基金去年的基金來源根本就入不敷出啊！去年基金來源是776億，結果實際支出高達828億；今年你們預估基金來源752億，但是用途支出更高達879億，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以如果照這個預算，2028年長照基金就會完全用完，不是嗎？所以我認為這些有意義的政策才是真的還稅於民，這也是我們設政府的目的，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：那你的看法呢？第一點，剛才電視主流媒體普遍報導政府已經做了這個打算，大概現在正在作業當中，8月左右完成，大概9月要發，這個部分你要先澄清，你的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上我們不支持發放現金常態化，因為發放現金要有特殊的目的，以往都是訂特別條例，然後通過之後才編列預算。這個部分如果常態化的話，將影響整個預算執行的彈性，所以原則上我們是不支持的。"],["王委員世堅：所以你更正囉？針對9月可能發放現金，你的看法呢？你要講得更明確一點，我知道當然不支持啊！常態化就是我剛剛講的，常態化無法保持政府對預算運用的彈性！我們會碰到很多社會經濟情勢的變化、碰到重大災情、疫情等等，不是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以當然不要常態化，這是一定的。但是你要針對今天上午被報導的，講得很明說9月就要發放現金，你的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們是說整個政策優先順序的排列必須由各部會來跟院長報告，由院長裁示，意思是說整個政策是不是要列入政策，還是必須要由……"],["王委員世堅：發放現金1萬元也是你們要跟院長報告的，所謂你們決定的政策之一？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為發放現金不是我們在負責主導，但是他現在要修改預算法，我們是認為整個……"],["王委員世堅：我跟你講主計處還有幾項……你們其實有很多的預估錯誤。你們預估去年的GDP在前年底的時候，最早預估說是3.35%，結果幾次修正以後有提高，去年GDP多少？4.59%，跟你原始預估差了百分之一點多！主計總處，我為什麼提這個事情？你說刪減預算導致政府支出減少、導致我們GDP可能下降，但是那個差百分之零點多而已。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對啦！它影響比較小。"],["王委員世堅：所以我是要告訴你：第一點，我們政府……我先前質詢之後，人家財政部已經積極去推動乙類公債，要把我們在海外的壽險資金引回臺灣，加速臺灣的公共建設；第二點，金管會也通過不動產證券化（REITS），這個條例已經通過要這麼做，也是引進民間資金。當有這兩大民間資金的來源挹注到國內建設的時候，我相信我們的GDP會更樂觀。更樂觀的結果，我們就不必發現金，不是嗎？那次是因為疫情導致GDP下降，所以政府才發放現金嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以你講的刪減預算影響到GDP，導致政府支出下滑影響GDP，第一個，我認為那個是微乎其微。第二個，你的下滑正印證需要發現金了嘛，不是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是。"],["王委員世堅：我希望主計總處不必做任何遮掩，你不必為任何已經既定的方向……不必！你就據實以告，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：因為我看你的個性也是一個很坦然的人，我看你先前在做事也是這樣嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是！謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：我們就正大光明、坦坦然然地面對事實證據，還有數據，我希望這個數據不要再那麼離譜，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，我們儘量努力。"],["王委員世堅：你去看一下，前年底你就講3.35%，後來你也一直修正，結果最後4.59%，差了1.24%，這個不可謂不大。","今天早上如果這些媒體的報導是曲解的話，我希望待會休息之後你就跟這些媒體溝通，希望他們收回這樣的報導，因為事實上沒有這樣的一回事說：確定了！就是要發放了，就是已經作業中，然後9月要發放。這是給我們社會不必要的、莫名其妙額外的一種期待，不必要這麼做，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["王委員世堅：主計總處的任務就是實話實說，精準的數據掌握跟分析，然後忠實的向社會大眾報告，做出應有的政府決策，可不可以？好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：主計長，送你4個字：「任重道遠」。"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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基本上我們依法行政法通過了不執行就違法如果它已經正式生效 那當然我們一定要依法來執行至少不要再說如果 它今天就正式生效今天 現在你要不要告訴我一下地方政府該怎麼辦地方政府那一部分因為它是下一個會計年度的四個月之前我們才有分配法所以你要告訴他說依照新通過的法律去編列吧"},{"start":309.163,"end":335.02,"text":"所以你是要告訴我說中央的主管機關可以告訴地方政府你不用按照新法去編列時間還沒到到時候再看看這個國家因為行政院這樣的態度因為行政院完全不想要把這個版本拿出來跟立法院討論因為行政院只想"},{"start":336.28,"end":364.503,"text":"政黨繼續火車對撞繼續魚死網破讓國家停擺這才是我今天看到行政院的態度財政部從來沒有放棄繼續在修法我再說一下很好笑你們3月6號不是開了一個會然後我們跟你們調資料你知道國庫署打電話副議案通過之後國庫署打來說請問辦公室還要不要資料意思就是說副議案通過了立法委員"},{"start":365.799,"end":390.868,"text":"要你們3月6號的所謂的徵詢會議資料已經不用提供了然後徵詢會議也沒有意義了 是嗎不會 我了解是沒有這種情況如果委員需要這個資料 那個會議記錄的話我們會後會提供 這沒有問題的是啊 所以他打電話來問我要不要資料要資料就是要資料第二個 你們的所謂的徵詢會議開了多少次啊"},{"start":391.533,"end":412.023,"text":"我們現在開了三次已經開了第三次從去年到現在開過幾次啊開過三次只開過三次最近一次是3月6號是由組織長所以去年立法院叫你們去提版本到今年你們只開過三次徵詢會議問地方政府問了三次都沒有答案所以就不提版本是嗎"},{"start":413.303,"end":433.553,"text":"我跟委員報告了 財政劃分法是我們中央跟地方財政收支劃分的我現在只想說 接下去115年的預算就在眼前我希望你一個月之內告訴我 告訴地方政府該怎麼編列你們要復業也好 你們要行政儲備也好"},{"start":434.915,"end":461.027,"text":"明白的告訴大家第二個不要讓院長拿了一個假的版本在立法院說我手上就有版本如果一個連財政部連主計處都沒看過的版本然後院長在立法院公開的回答委員說我手上就是版本到今天為止我很希望看到那個版本結果連你們也沒看過我們也沒看過全世界都沒看過但是行政院說我有版本他不拿給我們"},{"start":462.372,"end":490.285,"text":"只拿去外面宣講這是一個負責任的政府嗎拿去外面宣講不願意拿給要投附議票同不同意的立法委員來參考認為立法院一定不會通過如果你們有好的版本為什麼不爭取大家的支持這才是問題啊次長我給你一個月的時間115年的預算怎麼編要如何編接下來我想問一下主計長"},{"start":491.653,"end":517.462,"text":"我們接下去賴信德總統說我們被美國點名了我們要達到GDP3%的國防預算如果按照計算的話我們3%將近要8000億現在國防支出大概是6000多億所以還要再續編1500億左右請問會提出特別預算會提出相關的這個裁員來源嗎"},{"start":519.64,"end":538.676,"text":"這個部分我們就要看國防部他那個什麼時候會提我們是朝這個目標來進行還不知道什麼時候要提因為有時候就是說我縱使要維持百分之三我也沒辦法每一年都打百分之三所以今年不知道第二個如果要提這多提了一千五百億的話請問要舉債嗎"},{"start":542.561,"end":545.044,"text":"目前原則上我們先規劃說是用累積剩餘來做我們目前"},{"start":558.058,"end":566.882,"text":"你的主產快花光啦但是大概累積起來應該還有將近兩千多億可以用兩千多億可以用所以暫時不會舉債來編這個特別預算原則上希望不要舉債那如果非得舉債也是應該要舉債所以你同意我們現在大家都希望說超徵的金額要拿來補發現金那接下來去又編了這麼多可能要新增的預算請問你這個"},{"start":586.05,"end":610.717,"text":"掌握國家財政調度的主計長你這個要怎麼調配啊所以我們不希望說限定說哪些預算裡面限定哪些哪些是限定所以我們就可以按優先順序來做排列來做調整以上好所以現在財政部還有一個問題就是計劃性補助款是財政部在預算裡面很重要的調節所謂地方差異的狀況來時間暫停我請"},{"start":614.588,"end":640.5,"text":"所以財政部的計劃性補助款就像剛剛陳玉珍委員問的會不會有類似剛剛上述所言因為財化法的修正而有這樣子的差別待遇財政部據我了解計劃型的預算不是我們財政部這邊所以各單位來負責希望不要有任何所謂的差別待遇好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的資訊下面請王世堅委員發言"},{"start":651.801,"end":653.345,"text":"我們十一點五十開始發生變態"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時32分）謝謝主席，我請主計長還有財政部阮次長。"],["主席：請主計長、財政部阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位好。3月12號立法院否決了財劃法覆議案，當天本席在質詢院長的時候，院長說他手上有一個行政院的版本，請問兩位，你們看過行政院的版本了嗎？院長手上那個版本你看過了沒？"],["阮次長清華：沒有，我自己……"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，你看過了沒？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有討論過。"],["黃委員珊珊：有討論過？那你看過版本了沒？"],["陳主計長淑姿：版本是沒有看過，就是有討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政部也沒看過版本，但是就在院長手上，財政部次長沒有看過版本？"],["阮次長清華：沒有看過這個版本，但是就架構……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以意思就是說，院長拿了一個空包彈來立法院欺騙我們所有的委員嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是就財劃法的架構是有交換意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以從頭到尾行政院到現在都還沒有任何的版本！院長說他有版本要跟立法院討論，到目前為止還是空談。我想問一下，覆議案上個禮拜通過，上個禮拜五正式公告，今天正式實施、今天開始115年的預算編列就在眼前，我想問一下兩位，尤其是主計長，請問，若適用新法，就應該按照新法來編列，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們也有跟相關的法規單位去請示過……"],["黃委員珊珊：我在問你法律，法律通過了要不要執行？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它生效是114年，但因為我們整個流程……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為你還沒有編，所以你將要編的是115年，我沒有在問你114年，所以115年的預算正要編，要怎麼編？是用新法來編、用新的財政收支劃分法來編，是吧？依照法律規定，是不是這樣？主計長，是吧？請問現在地方政府它的歲入，有關中央這些統籌分配稅的金額跟相關的數字，主計總處會不會預估給他們？還是他們自己隨便亂編？兩位沒有要回答我嗎？"],["阮次長清華：統籌分配稅款是這樣，就是在每一個會計年度之前的4個月，它就要分配下去，所以就114年度來講，時間已經過了，所以沒辦法再分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有在跟你講114年，我現在問你的是115年，現在地方政府正要開始編，請問財政部，他們要怎麼編？"],["阮次長清華：前提就看我們財劃法有沒有生效，如果是有經過……"],["黃委員珊珊：剛剛講了，今天已經生效了，已經公告了，所以次長你現在在這裡，就不要再跟我講生不生效的問題。"],["阮次長清華：假定相關黨團或者……"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦！我現在只要問，地方政府是不是還要等到你們去聲請釋憲、去覆議、去大罷免，然後編兩套預算版本，一個是依舊法的，一個是依新法的，是不是要編兩套預算版本才可以因應接下來的預算編列？尤其是7月、8月時就要送到立法機關去審議，財政部要不要告訴一下地方政府他們該怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：基本上，我剛才也跟委員報告過，目前當然已經生效，但生效的前提就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在問你生效之後，你要不要照辦嘛！不辦就說不辦，不辦就說地方政府編兩套，一套是按照新法，一套是按照舊法，現在就說清楚、講明白！"],["阮次長清華：如果沒有聲請暫時處分，也沒有釋憲的話，當然一定要按照生效的來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在是快3月底了，接著是4月、5月，你剛才提的「如果」會到幾月？預算編列不可能等到你們相關的「如果」發生！"],["阮次長清華：了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以第一個，時間點；第二個，地方政府現在到底能有多少？不知道！財政部不想用新法來分配，當然，我知道你們只想去罷免……"],["阮次長清華：我們不會……"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部是行政機關，次長是重要的政務單位，所以你們要告訴地方政府該怎麼編吧？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，基本上，我們依法行政，如果……"],["黃委員珊珊：法通過了不執行就違法了。"],["阮次長清華：如果財劃法已經正式生效，當然我們一定要依法來執行……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長不要再說「如果」了，它今天就正式生效，今天！現在！你要不要告訴我一下，地方政府該怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：地方政府的那一部分，因為它是下一個會計年度的4個月之前分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：很好，所以你要告訴它說，依照新的、新通過的法律去編列，對吧？"],["阮次長清華：因為時間還沒到，所以115年我們是在……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你是要告訴我，中央的主管機關可以告訴地方政府，不用按照新法去編列？"],["阮次長清華：應該是說時間還沒到，到時候我們要看整個修法的狀況……"],["黃委員珊珊：時間還沒到？到時候再看？這個國家因為行政院這樣的態度；因為行政院完全不想把這個版本拿出來跟立法院討論；因為行政院只想政黨繼續火車對撞、繼續魚死網破、讓國家停擺，這才是我今天看到的行政院態度。"],["阮次長清華：財政部從來沒有放棄繼續修法，因為目前的修法……"],["黃委員珊珊：我再說一下，很好笑，你們3月6號開了一個會，然後我們跟你們調資料，你知道嗎？覆議案通過之後，國庫署打來說，請問辦公室還要不要資料？意思就是說，覆議案通過了，立法委員要求你們提供3月6號徵詢會議的資料，已經不用提供了，然後徵詢會議也沒有意義了，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：不會，據我了解是沒有這種情況，如果委員需要這個會議紀錄的資料，我們會後會提供，這是沒有問題的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！所以為何要打電話來問我還要不要資料？要資料就是要資料。第二個，你們所謂的徵詢會議開了多少次？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在開了3次，已經開第3次。"],["黃委員珊珊：才第3次啦！從去年到現在開過幾次？"],["阮次長清華：開過3次。"],["黃委員珊珊：只開過3次。"],["阮次長清華：最近一次是3月6號，是由主計長還有莊部長共同主持。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以去年立法院叫你們去提版本，到今年你們只開過3次徵詢會議，問地方政府問了3次都沒有答案，所以就不提版本，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，財政收支劃分法是我們中央跟地方財政收支劃分的根本大法，所以我是說這個是非常……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在只想說，接下去115年的預算就在眼前，我希望你在1個月之內告訴我、告訴地方政府該怎麼編列，你們要覆議也好，你們要行政處分也好，明白的告訴大家。"],["阮次長清華：我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，不要讓院長拿了一個假的版本在立法院說我手上就有版本！如果一個連財政部、連主計總處都沒看過的版本，然後院長在立法院公開的回答委員說：我手上的就是版本！到今天為止，我很希望看到那個版本，結果連你們也沒看過，我們也沒看過，全世界都沒看過，但是行政院說我有版本！他不拿給我們，只拿去外面宣講，這是一個負責任的政府嗎？拿去外面宣講，不願意拿給要對覆議案投票同不同意的立法委員來參考，是認為立法院一定不會通過？如果你們有好的版本，為什麼不爭取大家的支持？這才是問題啊！次長，我給你1個月的時間，我要求說明115年的預算怎麼編、要如何編。","接下來，我想問一下主計長，賴清德總統說我們被美國點名了，我們要達到占GDP3%的國防預算。如果按照計算的結果，我們GDP的3%將近要8,000億，現在國防支出大概是六千多億，所以還要再續編1,500億左右。請問會提出特別預算、會提出相關的財源來源嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們就要看國防部……"],["黃委員珊珊：什麼時候會提？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上我們是朝這個目標來進行。"],["黃委員珊珊：還不知道什麼時候要提？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為有時候就是說我縱使要維持3%，我也沒辦法每一年都達3%。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以今年不知道？"],["陳主計長淑姿：今年大概不可能啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，如果要多編1,500億的話，請問要舉債嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前原則上我們先規劃……"],["黃委員珊珊：是用舉債？"],["陳主計長淑姿：用累計賸餘來做，當然，如果要舉債……"],["黃委員珊珊：用歲計賸餘來做，你現在歲計賸餘稅剩多少？你現在歲計賸餘只剩下一千多億了，是嗎？是1,100億嗎？你的祖產快花光了！"],["陳主計長淑姿：113年是1,581億，但是累積起來應該大概還有將近兩千多億可以用。"],["黃委員珊珊：有兩千多億可以用？所以暫時不會舉債來編這個特別預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上希望不要舉債！如果非舉債不可，也是應該要舉債，因為國防是很重要的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們現在大家都希望超徵的金額要拿來普發現金，那接下去又可能要編這麼多新增的預算，你是掌握國家財政調度的主計長，請問你要怎麼調配？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們不希望在預算裡面有哪些、哪些是限定，這樣我們就可以按優先順序排列、調整，以上。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以現在財政部還有一個問題，就是計畫性補助款，這是財政部在預算裡面用來調節所謂地方差異很重要的部分。來，時間暫停，我要請問財政部。就像剛剛陳玉珍委員問的，財政部的計畫性補助款會不會如上述所言因為財劃法的修正而有這樣子的差別待遇？"],["阮次長清華：據我了解，計畫型的預算不是我們財政部這邊的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以是各單位來負責？"],["阮次長清華：對，由各部會來負責。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望不要有任何所謂的差別待遇，好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢。","下一位請王世堅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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倍億的"},{"start":125.899,"end":134.71,"text":"替代役喔 如果家裡面有四個人 這個就是牽扯到一百萬人喔柯定來來辛苦辛苦你看這個修正 本來是退役八年內嘛對不對這個你明確把他拿掉了嘛 對不對"},{"start":143.24,"end":157.899,"text":"所以是全部退役的隨時可能會被找跌這是跌跌對不對 這個明確嗎沒有啊 它是36歲以前36歲以前36嘛喔 那這個跌跌 好 OK那你把8年這個拿掉這是第一個嘛 對不對沒有 就是36歲以前 原來就是這樣規定的"},{"start":162.698,"end":184.387,"text":"本來限定是退役八年內嘛新的規定才說是八年內原來是沒有這個八年內的限制原來的話就是說36歲以內的話都可以召集那現在是以退役之後八年內所以是剛好相反事實上是緊縮的那刪掉前年60天這個限制是有的"},{"start":185.292,"end":209.209,"text":"不是 是它原來的規定是30天必要時候得增加然後變成60天那現在的話是30天但是那個只能夠到60天的這個次數的話是上限是沒有是按照實際的狀況而且最重要的是它是指在勤務召集我們的備役有兩種召集一種是演訓召集"},{"start":212.771,"end":227.507,"text":"像是國防部的什麼點閱召集、教育召集這種召集那這個是勤務召集,勤務召集是碰到了事變或者是暫時是有的關鍵就是現在是本來是60天是一個限制嘛對不對現在是刪掉"},{"start":228.388,"end":250.674,"text":"比60天多嗎原來是30天必要時到60天那現在是30天但是按照而且只限於勤務召集也就是說隨時必要的時候可以再增加嘛對不對那是發生事變的時候的勤務召集所以就是把這個界限拿掉了嘛60天已經很多了啊一年才360天你把60天拿掉"},{"start":253.015,"end":277.578,"text":"我們的召集分成兩種一種叫演訓召集五天內一年一次情務召集的話就是在事變或者是暫時的時候才會實施的你現在就是因為你認定你必要嘛所以我今天執行的重點是什麼你要把那個必要不要有灰色地帶我剛才一開始就講我們現在你如果是一個替代役你包括他的家人現在就會想啊"},{"start":278.138,"end":295.003,"text":"我本來規定清清楚楚的啊那你規定完之後你把連線也放寬了次數也放寬了日數也放寬了特別是我剛講你這60天有可能我就有受到影響啦第一我不用問啊一年360才65天你把60天都已經放寬了第二個我平常也要工作啊我有生活啊對不對"},{"start":296.756,"end":321.593,"text":"我退役以後,你隨時把我找來,你要不要付我薪水?這是不是就是一個影響?是不是這樣?OK,所以我要求,我今天的質詢非常的明確第一個,你的必要,你要把人家找來,你這個不要有灰色地帶,把它訂得非常的明確好不好?是是是這是一個那第二個,你不要雙標啊,你看一般兵是一年最多幾天?點招最多幾天?"},{"start":322.742,"end":337.054,"text":"那是國防部他按照 國防部他有教育召集 點閱召集 訓練召集他有五種召集 我們只有兩種召集所有的召集裡面最多有14天啊 你這邊60 你60還往上走必要的時候還往上走 你能不能把它 應該是減少吧"},{"start":338.995,"end":363.77,"text":"可不可以您提到的我要再強調一下這個是在緊急跟非常事變跟暫時的時候才會有這種30天或者是60天的這種平常的話在叫做演訓召集相當於後備軍人的教育召集點約召集等等它是在五天之內而且一年只有一次的時間對啊 給你解釋那麼清楚你為什麼這麼模糊"},{"start":364.29,"end":390.104,"text":"還把連線把次數、倍次數都要拿掉你要把這些東西維持才對啊這樣才會平等嘛是不是是不是這樣我的要求很明確對不對而且合理吧對的話讓我們的替代役可以安心好不好你不要隨時他要被你調來生活會受影響工作會受影響好來你先請問我請保定另外一個問題那部長這幾天你們今天要說租屋啦保定租屋的這個補貼啊你看一下我們的這個提案"},{"start":393.362,"end":420.737,"text":"前陣子怎麼會出現什麼租屋補貼被刪了不過 博定你有看過嗎這個提案啊 第一行這個提案是為了要討論你國土計劃法延後六年要你提一個報告案可是刪減案一開始 刪減的時候就講了中間就開始講了 第一行第一行 博定你有看過嗎第七款第三項的項目怎麼樣你有看過排除這兩支嗎"},{"start":423.396,"end":443.547,"text":"所以這筆錢 刪減的根本一開始就已經排除租屋補貼啊怎麼會有人造謠言說什麼租屋補貼受影響動節什麼時候要解凍我們不知道我是不是詳細請我們署長來回應一下這是署長要處理的我剛剛剛才看你第一行 最後一行你看一下三個月內要跟立法院的內政委員會提出專案報告"},{"start":446.491,"end":460.542,"text":"現在立法院跟內政委員會提出專案報告是三個月內但是我們到目前為止在處理的部分是行政院附議的在立法院並沒有通過所以凍結了還是凍結啊凍結了還是繼續凍結啊凍結了還是繼續凍結啊"},{"start":470.55,"end":489.194,"text":"這個提案就是要你三個月內來報告啊你現在都不爭取這三個月現在三個月內這樣兩個是兩個是 我有提案第一個清清楚楚提案裡面是排除所以沒有刪減到一毛錢的租屋補貸這件事那你一定要要來凍結凍結還是一樣那你叫你三個月來內政委員會做報告目前為止都沒有解凍啊你為什麼提案三個月"},{"start":495.575,"end":524.737,"text":"如果我們沒有按照立法院的程序委員會去排任何解凍案的話那是我們內政部沒有辦法跟我們內政委員會做比較好的溝通但是重點在於立法院立法院的院會有沒有要求針對114年的所有煽動預算開始處理解凍或者是處理其他的解除的部分我們都沒有收到這方面的資訊所以按照目前"},{"start":525.618,"end":549.459,"text":"的狀況就是仍然在凍結的狀態那仍然在凍結的狀態對我們內政部影響最大的就是租金補貼的部分租金補貼第一個我剛剛講了已經這個是排除債務一毛錢都沒刪那你一定要硬咬說是凍結你包括凍結的錢算除掉之後也足夠你付一年這個沒有問題那現在更重要的你應該主動去爭取啊"},{"start":550.373,"end":560.207,"text":"你為什麼要等你剛剛的議事什麼還沒開始這兩天的提案這個就是立法院的結議文這是委員會過了以後到了議員會又過了要你三個議院內提一個報告出來"},{"start":562.213,"end":586.232,"text":"那你為什麼不提 你沒提 你在甩鍋叫那請問一下 所謂的三個月內是從日曆年的三個月還是立法院通過114年的行政院的預算的三個月如果是這樣的話 上個禮拜行政院在總統簽署的部分的話就是公告114年行政院的預算 對不對"},{"start":586.872,"end":601.908,"text":"那我們是按照這樣的程序 所以我還是一再非常的清楚我們邏輯上 法律上 行政規範上我們全部按照立法院在解除 或是在處理預算的程序上來走這是我們完全尊重的否定你已經在那裡顧著立法委員 你這位格擁企業副指定"},{"start":604.622,"end":620.264,"text":"跟這位行政院的秘書長你當然知道以前的網歷就是所謂三個月就是從年度就開始算啊因為以前的網路也沒有鋪一這件事也沒有到總統最後公告這回事那你盡快提出來啊那現在凍結的錢也足夠你去付這個"},{"start":621.105,"end":644.123,"text":"房屋津貼趕快做啦好不好現在人民是要你們解決問題第一個不要造謠因為這裡面清楚的解釋它已經被排除這是第一個被排除所以立法院沒有刪租補貼證的一毛錢老實講凍結的錢你把它算進去你還是足夠今年一整年都可以用的好第三個第三個你如果要趕快你要趕快提出來一個解凍案很快就可以通過"},{"start":645.685,"end":664.386,"text":"解凍案你以前當那麼久的立委有沒有你舉個例子給我聽有沒有哪一個凍結案到後來沒有過的有沒有有一個嗎有啊哪一個我可以會後提供給你參考還相當多一個給我就好了除了我印象中除了賴清德當幹事長那一年公司的預算被凍結他到隔年解凍沒有啦"},{"start":667.096,"end":693.333,"text":"立法委為什麼要你要凍結要嘛就把你砍掉來凍結凍結就希望你提出把解決方案嘛像這個凍結案本來要做什麼事情你有沒有看過這些提案因為你的國土計劃法那時候沒有好好去溝通叫你溝通完提案出來如果委員你只要刪掉300萬的國土計劃法我沒意見但是你們民眾黨黨團所提的捅山跟捅洞就動到我們的租金補貼的200億"},{"start":696.02,"end":721.321,"text":"國土計畫你們也提了延期了所以事實上呢我們當然可以在這個地方跟委員好好來做報告這是我們的全責但是呢也請委員了解一下統棟跟統山是在立法院的表決通過的它的法定的這個效率比我們在內政委員會通過的任何解棟跟這個刪除的部分還要來得強謝謝委員的指教裡面怎麼會有你房屋這個房屋金補貼呢你房屋補貼的錢清清楚楚列在這裡啊"},{"start":722.571,"end":733.797,"text":"你什麼嗲嗲倒菜的好啦 最重要的啦第一個不只不要造謠 趕快提出解凍案 趕快通稿好 謝謝 文字都會說話 提案白紙黑字清清楚楚好 謝謝張其開委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時19分）請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長好。時間先暫停，還沒開始。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。"],["張委員啓楷：還沒開始。"],["主席：我宣告一下，因為統計處處長行動比較不方便一點，我們就允許他坐著用麥克風來回答，好不好？跟委員會報告一下。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝召委。"],["主席：準備好了嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：好。部長，今天27萬替代役的備役人員接到你們一顆震撼彈，你們修了替代役備役的擴大召集，把年限、次數、日數全部都放寬了，最重要是後面這個，把不限退役8年內拿掉了，還刪掉全年60天的限制，這樣就變成空白授權了。"],["劉部長世芳：完全沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：現在你這位內政部長的權限比總統還大……"],["劉部長世芳：不是。"],["張委員啓楷：差不多跟皇帝一樣大了，把替代役都找來、召集……"],["劉部長世芳：這個是行政院在111年通過的，內政部只是按照行政院會議通過的來修正我們的實施辦法。行政院在111年，也就是3年前通過的，我們只是按照預告的子法在公告而已。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在將心比心，現在談的是27億的備役替代役，如果家裡面有4個人，就牽扯到100萬人。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，總共27萬，你講錯了。"],["張委員啓楷：你看這個修正，本來是退役8年內，對不對？你明確把它拿掉了，對不對？所以全部退役的隨時可能會被找，這是第一個，對不對？這個明確嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有！還是36歲以前。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你把8年這個規定拿掉，這是第一個，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，就是36歲以前，原來就是這樣規定的。"],["張委員啓楷：本來限定是退役8年內，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：這是實施服勤辦法……"],["陳副司長裕興：新的規定才說是8年內，原來沒有8年內的限制。原來是36歲以內都可以召集，現在是以退役之後8年內。"],["劉部長世芳：剛好相反。"],["陳副司長裕興：事實上是緊縮。"],["張委員啓楷：刪掉全年60天這個限制是有的？"],["陳副司長裕興：不是，原來的規定是30天，必要時得增加變成60天，現在的話是30天，但只能夠到60天的上限是沒有，而是按照實際的狀況，最重要的是只在勤務召集。備役有兩種召集，一種是演訓召集，就像國防部的點閱召集、教育召集這種召集。這個是勤務召集，勤務召集是碰到了事變或者是戰時……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，不好意思！關鍵就是本來60天是一個限制，對不對？現在是刪掉，現在是比60天多嗎？"],["陳副司長裕興：原來是30天，必要時到60天，現在是30天而且只限於勤務召集，也就是發生事變的時候……"],["張委員啓楷：就是隨時、必要的時候，可以再增加，對不對？"],["陳副司長裕興：那是發生事變時候的勤務召集。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以就是把界限拿掉了，60天已經很多了，一年才365天，你把60天拿掉……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，30天變……"],["陳副司長裕興：我們的召集分成兩種，一種叫演訓召集，那是5天內、一年一次……"],["張委員啓楷：對，我知道，各種都一樣，現在最重要的就是……"],["陳副司長裕興：勤務召集就是在事變或者是戰時才會實施。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我知道。你現在就是因為認定必要，所以我今天質詢的重點是什麼？那個「必要」不要有灰色地帶，對不對？"],["陳副司長裕興：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛一開始就講，如果是一個替代役，包括他的家人，現在就會想，本來規定清清楚楚的，你規定完之後把年限也放寬了，次數也放寬了，日數也放寬了，特別是我剛剛講如果60天有可能，就受到影響了。第一個，我要問的是，一年才365天，你把60天都已經放寬了。第二個，我平常也要工作、要生活，對不對？我退役以後，你隨時把我找來，你要不要付我薪水？這是不是就是影響？是不是這樣？"],["陳副司長裕興：對。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。我今天的質詢非常明確，第一個，有關必要，你要把人家找來，不要有灰色地帶，要把它訂得非常明確，好不好？"],["陳副司長裕興：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這是一個。第二個，你不要雙標，你看一般兵一年最多幾天？點召最多幾天？"],["陳副司長裕興：那是國防部按照……國防部有教育召集、點閱召集、訓練召集，有五種召集，我們只有兩種召集。"],["張委員啓楷：所有的召集裡面最多才14天，你這邊60天，必要的時候還往上走，應該減少吧？可不可以？"],["陳副司長裕興：您提到的我要再強調一下，這個是在緊急跟非常事變、戰時的時候才會有這種30天或者是60天的，平常叫做演訓召集，相當於後備軍人的教育召集、點閱召集等等，是在5天之內而且一年只有一次。"],["張委員啓楷：點召寫得那麼清楚，你為什麼寫得這麼模糊？還把年限、次數、日數都要拿掉，你要把這些東西維持才對，這樣才會平等，是不是？"],["陳副司長裕興：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我的要求很明確，對不對？而且合理吧？"],["陳副司長裕興：對。"],["張委員啓楷：讓我們的替代役可以安心，好不好？不要讓他隨時可以被你調來，生活受影響，工作也受影響。好，你先請回。","我要請問部長另外一個問題，今天我們談租屋，你看一下我們的提案，前陣子怎麼會出現租屋補貼被刪了、不夠。部長，你有看到嗎？這個提案是為了要討論國土計畫法延後6年，要你提一個報告案，可是刪減案一開始刪減的時候就講了，部長唸一下第一行，第七款第二項第三目的項目怎麼樣？你有看到「排除」這兩個字嗎？這筆錢根本一開始刪減就已經排除租屋補貼，怎麼會有人造謠，說租屋補貼受影響？"],["劉部長世芳：凍結什麼時候要解凍，我們不知道，我是不是請署長來詳細回應一下？這是署長要處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：你看一下最後一行，3個月內要跟立法院的內政委員會提出專案報告，現在3月底了，你提了嗎？主動權……"],["劉部長世芳：立法院跟內政委員會提出專案報告是3個月內，但我們到目前為止處理的情況是，行政院的覆議在立法院並沒有通過，所以凍結的還是凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：你3個月內提到內政委員會，就會通過解凍了……"],["劉部長世芳：凍結的還是繼續凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：這個提案就是要你3個月內來報告，你都不爭取這3個月，現在3月底了。兩件事，第一個，清清楚楚，提案裡面是排除，所以沒有刪減到一毛錢的租屋補貼，這是第一個。"],["吳署長欣修：凍結還是一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：叫你3個月內來內政委員會報告……"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止都沒解凍！"],["張委員啓楷：你就提，你為什麼提案3個月……"],["劉部長世芳：如果我們沒有按照立法院的程序委員會排任何解凍案的話，內政部沒有辦法跟內政委員會做比較好的溝通，但是重點在於立法院院會有沒有要求針對114年所有刪凍預算開始處理解凍，或者是處理其他解除的部分，我們都沒有收到這方面的資訊，所以按照目前的狀況就是仍然在凍結的狀態，對內政部影響最大的就是租金補貼的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，我剛剛講了，租金補貼是排除在外，一毛錢都沒刪，你一定要硬咬說是凍結，老實說，凍結的錢刪掉之後也足夠你付一年了，這個沒有問題。現在更重要的是，部長應該主動去爭取，你為什麼要等？你剛剛的意思是還沒開始，這個就是立法院的決議文，這是委員會過了以後，到了院會又過了，要你3個月內提一個報告出來，你為什麼不提？你沒提，你甩鍋要立法院……"],["劉部長世芳：請問一下，所謂的3個月內是從日曆年的3個月，還是立法院通過114年行政院預算的3個月？如果是這樣的話，上個禮拜行政院簽署總統公告114年行政院的預算，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["劉部長世芳：我們是按照這樣的程序，所以還是非常清楚，邏輯上、法律上、行政規範上，我們全部按照立法院在解除或是在處理預算的程序來走，這是我們完全尊重的。"],["張委員啓楷：你以前做那麼久的立法委員，還當過高雄市副市長，又擔任行政院秘書長，你當然知道以前的往例所謂3個月就是從年度就開始算。"],["吳署長欣修：因為以前往例沒有覆議這件事，也沒有到總統最後公告這回事。"],["張委員啓楷：沒關係！終究要等總統府公告，你也儘快提出來，現在凍結的錢也足夠你去付房屋津貼，趕快做，好不好？現在人民是要你們解決問題。第一個、不要造謠，因為這裡面清楚……"],["吳署長欣修：這個不是造謠，這在凍結案裡面會非常清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：它已經被排除，這是第一個，被排除。立法院沒有刪租屋補貼任何一毛錢，老實講，你把凍結的錢算進去，今年一整年還是足夠、可以用。"],["劉部長世芳：統凍跟統刪在立法院……"],["張委員啓楷：第三個，你如果趕快提出解凍案報告，很快就可以通過。部長，我問你，你以前當那麼久的立委，你舉一個例子給我聽，有沒有哪個凍結案到後來沒有過的？有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有啊！"],["張委員啓楷：哪一個？"],["劉部長世芳：我可以會後提供給你參考，還相當多。"],["張委員啓楷：給我一個就好了。我印象中除了賴清德當幹事長那一年，公視的預算被凍結到隔年才解凍，沒有！立法委員為什麼要凍結？要嘛就把你砍掉了，還凍結？凍結就是希望你提出解決方案嘛！像這個凍結案本來要做什麼事情？你們有看提案嗎？因為你的國土計畫法那時候沒有好好去溝通……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：叫你溝通完提案出來，這個很簡單……"],["劉部長世芳：好，如果委員只要刪掉300萬的國土計畫法，我沒意見，但是你們民眾黨黨團所提的統刪跟統凍就凍到我們的租金補貼200億。國土計畫你們也提了延期，事實上我們當然可以在這個地方跟委員好好來做報告，這是我們的權責，但也請委員了解一下，統凍跟統刪是在立法院表決通過的，它的法定效力比我們在內政委員會通過任何解凍跟刪除的部分還要來得強，謝謝委員指教。"],["張委員啓楷：統凍和統刪裡面怎麼會有房屋補貼？房屋補貼的錢清清楚楚列在這裡，你怎麼「竹篙湊菜刀」？好啦，最重要的，第一個不要造謠，趕快提出解凍案，趕快通過，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：我們完全沒有造謠。"],["張委員啓楷：文字都會說話，提案白紙黑字清清楚楚。"],["劉部長世芳：但是是錯誤的。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","本席在這邊做一下說明這幾個事情，我們還是還原一下：第一個，這個解凍案不是立法院要求，應該是行政機關要提，你提了之後送到院會、院會付委之後到委員會來做處理，這是第一個。第二個時間序的部分，因為這次是特別有提了覆議案，覆議案完了之後，其實真正能夠開始進行解凍程序是從今天開始，因為總統公布完，但問題是這樣，其實如果早公布，不去走覆議程序，搞不好現在我們已經討論解凍了，對不對？好，沒關係，事情發生了就發生了，好不好？既然大家都為了國家的發展，部裡面應該有很多委屈，那就儘快把它提出來、儘快提出來，我們就儘快來排，希望部裡面趕快來做溝通，其實就是這樣子而已，好不好？我們就不要再針對這個事情吵架。很清楚，不管是什麼提案都規定3個月之內要處理，我剛剛也講，不管怎麼樣，這會期一定要把它處理掉，既然處理掉，就不會出現所謂11月以後租金補貼斷炊的問題，不會嘛！因為原則上大家都同意，我目前還沒有聽到會反對解凍的，就請國土署積極來溝通，其實這樣就好了，好不好？謝謝，休息5分鐘。","休息（11時32分）","繼續開會（11時37分）"],["主席：謝謝各位同仁，我們繼續開會。","下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢。沒關係，喝一口茶沒問題的，你一向非常準時，所以沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：準時是應該的。"],["主席：我到經濟委員會質詢的時候，您當召委我也很準時。"],["邱委員志偉：國會議員基本素養。"],["主席：好，請邱志偉委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id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art":308.306,"end":331.035,"text":"不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查這樣子那也就是說查稅這件事情是本來財政部就該做的是是是所以不管我們實價登錄你都會做是是是那既然我覺得這個財政部為了這個付稅公平的一個原則嘛會積極的查這個查處逃漏稅那所以內政部是可以考慮啊針對這個實價登錄的部分我們能夠來積極的處理呢請問部長"},{"start":335.948,"end":350.791,"text":"報告委員我們現在按照法令上面的規範的部分能夠積極處理的其實我們都處理的差不多了所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎因為沒辦法規範它在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的這個所謂的棍子條款"},{"start":351.872,"end":377.323,"text":"那所以這個是在我們而且呢現在的市場上面的就是會產生那個負面的效應就是說我們有實價上去的話那會不會變成是租金上漲或者是說他那個房子租不到那這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區譬如說像雙北這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區的話反而會造成負面的效果所以我們才在推動的時候是要以穩健為主對我想這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛"},{"start":379.384,"end":394.324,"text":"還是希望內政部能夠提出解方看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題否則對於我想很多的租客來說他們也很希望有一個公開的平台他們可以很了解現在租金的狀況那另外再請教部長就是說我們現在看到社宅的租金問題"},{"start":395.665,"end":413.545,"text":"這個租金可負擔市社宅的這個核心價值那目前內政部是依照身份別來計算租金但是這種做法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公那另外呢如果租金是採市價打折的方式又會造成不同縣市社宅因為"},{"start":414.065,"end":435.013,"text":"市場的租金落差過大的水平不公那現在呢中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案但是呢很像拼裝車沒有辦法真正解決這個財稅資料不足的問題而且也有可能會漏接落市的一個狀況那請問一下地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理那其實也吵了蠻久了那請問內政部有沒有新的方案"},{"start":437.294,"end":451.881,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在從111年開始都已經陸陸續續開過7次的會議那因為各縣市政府其實在六都裡面比較支持多的還是希望能夠原來有的這一個身分別的部分"},{"start":452.461,"end":470.24,"text":"那再加上部分的這個所得所得分級那所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了七次會大概有一個定案也就是大概不要再去走一定要完全所得分級也不要一定走身份分級那所以最新的這樣的雙方混合出來會分成四級那大概在這個月的26號"},{"start":471.361,"end":485.184,"text":"那因為在去年11月已經開了第七次會議的時候大致上有一個共識但是回去要個別再了解看看事實上實施以後會不會有新的困擾所以這個部分26號會再討論確認討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題我們來正式來簽報不過這也是給各縣市一個原則一個處理的一個原則我想如果"},{"start":493.746,"end":517.641,"text":"再經過大家的共同討論那在3月16號可以有這樣的一個報告出來我想我們大概也可以沒有我想跟委員報告一下社會住宅的承租者這是我們內政部所主管的但是還有地方上所主管的部分我們都是列入一起討論那希望說會有共識那共識的還是會有原則跟例外所以這個部分呢讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理我們也希望有完備的一個方案出來大家共同來解決但我想現在會需要租屋喔"},{"start":523.464,"end":538.741,"text":"大家也希望能夠住到社會住宅那請部長看一下就是其實這個部分我已經也質詢過很多次了就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表部長可以看一下我們社宅的興建的統計表這裡"},{"start":543.703,"end":560.238,"text":"我們現在以完工的話大概是有33,781戶這是在我們從114年2月28的我們在這個內政部不動產的資訊平台所download下來的我們可以看到然後新建中是54,134戶以絕標代開工是33,285戶總計是121,200戶那請問一下目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶"},{"start":572.447,"end":600.345,"text":"我想就是這個數字現在的33,781那因為事實上因為已經在興建中的大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成那所以這是過去八年來大家都做了一個努力因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都是說是12萬那就是已經在執行中的但是我就要請教這個署長的是有幾戶是可以入住的所以是三萬多我瞭解但是這也是代表供給不夠的問題"},{"start":601.926,"end":628.622,"text":"那你當然希望我們當然希望能夠盡快的來去我們一定是盡快完成但是也是還是要表達但是現在其實真正能夠入住就三萬多戶嘛應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間當然當然所以我的意思是說我覺得政府要正視這個問題而不是就是美化那個數字比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住沒有美化而且這個都是在努力中而且在執行中我們還是希望是說但是我們還是來正視這個問題我覺得比較重要還是要正視是說"},{"start":631.164,"end":651.15,"text":"我們希望地方政府要持續的努力因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了所以我們也是要呼籲希望地方政府要持續的努力我們還是希望我們明確的把這個數字揭露出來那大家一起來努力好嗎最後不好意思 稍微一分鐘我想請教一下劉部長就是"},{"start":657.492,"end":686.708,"text":"就是根據行政院發布的2025年的性別圖像的性別不平等指數原來亞洲第一是台灣但現在已經被新加坡超前了也不再是亞洲第一而且已經連續兩年退步而且這次發布的成績也叫前次的退步三名請問部長您對於民進黨總召柯建民發表明顯帶有歧視的言論他嗆聲要如舊院市長回歸家庭請問部長有什麼看法"},{"start":687.048,"end":715.251,"text":"第一個我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話我是從媒體上知道的但是我想說任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人所以部長也是認為不該用這樣的一個方式來去我已經講過因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話因為我想希望完整的內容會比較好不要有斷章取義新聞都有 絕對沒有斷章取義您可以去看新聞"},{"start":715.831,"end":733.076,"text":"那所以部長認為如果是柯總早講這樣的話請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話這樣是不適當的對嗎我想任何人講這樣的話的話呢不管他是什麼樣子的一個政黨色彩對於目前我們所推動的這個性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平"},{"start":733.636,"end":748.569,"text":"但是我一再強調我沒有針對個人因為個人他的前言後語是指什麼我並不清楚因為在很多政治人物在講的部分的話我都會比較審慎去看他的前面跟後面等是什麼所以我很高興知道部長講到您對於這種性別平等您是捍衛性別平等的"},{"start":750.911,"end":778.652,"text":"也不該有這樣歧視的言論吧對嗎 您是這樣謝謝指教是那所以呢我想針對部長來您正在推動一個地方民帶任意性別的保障名額改為三分之一嘛最近我們在推動這樣內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額所以這我想這也攸關於整個政府的一個性平形象啦所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分我們大家努力來去捍衛那也希望不要再有這種歧視的言論"},{"start":779.909,"end":782.035,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇甄委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時5分）謝謝召委。請劉世芳部長以及賦稅署倪副署長。"],["主席：劉部長、倪副署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。請教部長跟倪副署長，現在臺灣的房價居高不下，內政部不動產資訊平臺指出，2024年第三季全臺灣的房價所得比創新高，來到10.82倍，也就是說，民眾要不吃不喝10.82年才能夠買得起房子。我們再看看各縣市的狀況，臺北市需要16.6年，新北市需要14.03年；再看看房貸負擔率的統計，全國平均是46.8%，也創下新高，臺北市房貸的負擔率是71.82%，新北市是60.69%，這個數字顯示全國家庭可支配所得的有46.8%都得拿來繳房貸，尤其是臺北市還要拿出七成來付房貸，請問一下部長跟倪副署長，什麼時候才能改善房價所得比偏高的情況？"],["劉部長世芳：我請司長說明。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請。"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告，這個主要是屬於購屋負擔的部分，當然政府這幾年其實推動了非常多的措施，像平均地權條例的修法、打炒房一些相關法案，另外，我們內政部也有推動社宅興建和租金補貼來照顧民眾需求。如果從去年第三季來看，其實這個指數的漲幅已經有down下來，隨著央行的……"],["許委員宇甄：請問司長，你認不認同現在的房價所得比是偏高的？"],["林代理司長家正：現在的話有部分是相對的高……"],["許委員宇甄：現在還是偏高嘛！住在臺北市，所得七成要來負擔房貸！我們可以看到，其實在各縣市幾乎平均46.8%要拿來付房貸，所以我們現在根本要解決的是房價居高的問題，當然因為房價高，很多人買不起，只能租屋，尤其是年輕族群，他們可能北漂，或者到別的地方工作，只能租屋。目前我們購屋方面的實價登錄平臺做得非常不錯，但想要請問部長，內政部可不可以做到租賃住宅的實價登錄，讓民眾可以輕鬆查核？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在今天的報告裡講得非常清楚，只要是公部門能夠掌握的資訊，要求實價登錄，我們都儘量做到，這就是目前租屋市場上大概有60%左右我們是已經公布的。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，另外40%我們可以繼續努力，完成租賃的實價登錄，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們會朝著精進措施來努力，但需要達到……"],["許委員宇甄：那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法做到實價登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：剛剛我已經跟很多委員報告過，第一，租賃契約裡面，如果雙方是私人的房東或私人的租客，他們在實價登錄上，會不會有不實的實價登錄？還有，他們短期的租約能不能達到用公部門來公布？這就是執行層面上比較大的……"],["許委員宇甄：請問，不實的實價登錄，算不算違法？"],["林代理司長家正：現在沒有規定。"],["許委員宇甄：所以不實實價登錄是可以的？"],["林代理司長家正：依照我們的仲介條例，還有租賃條例等相關規定，包租跟仲介的部分，如果不實申報，是有罰則的，因為現在委員提到的主要是規範以外的四成部分，那就必須回歸民法規定，目前是沒有處罰。"],["許委員宇甄：目前沒有刑罰，難怪房東跟房客之間可以用這樣的方式。另外，我們也聽到很多人說房客不去登錄的原因，是因為他們知道房東有可能因此不租給他房子，或者漲租金，也是因為這樣，所以不能用租屋的實價登錄嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：委員主要應該是在講說是不是要全面實價登錄的問題？"],["許委員宇甄：對。"],["林代理司長家正：除了仲介跟業者轉租約以外，那個部分的話，現在是沒有法源。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有法源？也就是說我們要修法的意思？"],["林代理司長家正：沒有立法的部分，剛剛部長有提到，第一個，租約不易掌握，那資訊到底會不會失真，會不會影響到市場的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：好。那我問一下倪副署長，財政部會不會藉由內政部建置租屋實價登錄，對房東稽查課稅？如果我們之後有這個租賃實價登錄的話。"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，現在的相關實價登錄制度，法律都有明定不可以作為課稅的依據。"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以實價登錄不能作為課稅依據，也就是財政部不會查囉？"],["倪副署長麗心：不會透過用實價登錄的資料來查。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說查稅這件事情本來財政部就該做？"],["倪副署長麗心：是。"],["許委員宇甄：所以不管有沒有實價登錄你都會做？"],["倪副署長麗心：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得財政部為了賦稅公平的原則，會積極的查處逃漏稅，所以內政部是否可以考慮針對實價登錄的部分來積極處理呢？請問部長。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在按照法令上面的規範部分，能夠積極處理的，其實我們都處理得差不多了，就像我們剛剛所說……"],["許委員宇甄：所以現在還有的問題就是在法令的問題嗎？因為沒辦法規範它。"],["劉部長世芳：是，在法律上面沒有這樣強制或者是說有非常大的所謂棍子條款，而且現在的市場上面就會產生負面的效應，就是說我們有實價上去的話，那會不會變成租金上漲或者房子租不到，這樣子對於比較嚴重的都會地區，譬如說像雙北，這是我們目前所看到的比較嚴重的地區，反而會造成負面的效果，所以我們才在推動的時候是以穩健為主，我們會朝著透明化來推動。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分我們今天就是討論嘛！還是希望內政部能夠提出解方，看怎麼來去處理這樣的問題，否則對於很多的租客來說，他們也很希望有一個公開的平臺，可以很了解現在租金的狀況。","另外，再請教部長，我們現在看到社宅的租金問題，租金可負擔是社宅的核心價值，目前內政部是依照身分別來計算租金，但是這種作法可能會造成不同所得卻繳交相同租金的垂直不公。另外，如果租金是採市價打折的方式，又會造成不同縣市社宅，因為市場的租金落差過大的水平不公。現在中央雖然有提出一些綜合的方案，但是很像拼裝車，沒有辦法真正解決財稅資料不足的問題，而且也有可能會漏接弱勢的狀況。那請問一下，地方政府希望採取的是收入分級的方式處理，其實也吵了滿久了，請問內政部有沒有新的方案？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們從111年開始，都已經陸陸續續開過7次會議，因為各縣市政府……其實在六都裡面，支持比較多的還是原來有的身分別的部分，再加上部分的所得分級，所以我們也依據這樣陸陸續續開了7次會，大概有一個定案，也就是不要再去走一定要完全所得分級，也不要一定走身分分級，所以新的雙方混合出來會分成4級。大概在這個月的26號，因為在去年11月開了第7次會議的時候，大致上有一個共識，但是回去要個別再了解看看實施以後會不會有新的困擾，所以這個部分26號會再來討論確認。"],["許委員宇甄：所以3月26號就會公布嗎？就是你們現在……"],["吳署長欣修：討論完如果確認大家都沒有問題，我們會正式來簽報，不過這也是給各縣市的一個原則，一個處理的原則。"],["許委員宇甄：我想如果經過大家的共同討論，在3月26號可以有這樣的一個報告出來，我想我們大家也可以……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想跟委員報告一下，社會住宅的承租者是我們內政部所主管的，但是還有地方上所主管的部分，我們都是列入一起討論，希望會有共識，但共識還是會有原則跟例外，所以這個部分讓我們有一點時間再來做比較完整的處理，這樣對於租客會比較公平。"],["許委員宇甄：我想這個會有完備的方案出來，大家共來解決，但我想現在會需要租屋的人，大家都很希望能夠租到社會住宅，其實這個部分我也已經質詢過很多次了，就是有關社會住宅興建的進度統計表。部長可以看一下社宅的興建統計表，已完工的話，大概是有3萬3,781戶，這是我們在114年2月28日從內政部不動產的資訊平臺所download下來的，然後興建中是5萬4,134戶，已決標待開工是3萬3,285戶，總計是12萬1,200戶。請問一下，目前到底我們可以入住的有幾戶？"],["吳署長欣修：我想就是這個數字，現在的3萬3,781，因為已經在興建中的，大概在未來這兩三年就會大量的完成，所以這是過去8年來大家所做的一個努力。"],["許委員宇甄：因為現在內政部對外宣傳的都說是12萬1,200戶嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：就是已經在執行中的，確定……"],["許委員宇甄：但是我要請教署長的是，有幾戶是可以入住的？是三萬多戶嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我了解，但這也是代表……"],["許委員宇甄：所以這就是供給不夠的問題，那我們當然希望……"],["吳署長欣修：不一定。"],["許委員宇甄：我們當然希望能夠儘快地來去完成這樣的供給。"],["吳署長欣修：我們一定是儘快完成，但是也還是要表達就是說……"],["許委員宇甄：但是現在其實真正能夠入住的就是三萬多戶，而不是12萬戶吧？"],["吳署長欣修：應該表達是說大家還有很大的努力空間。"],["許委員宇甄：當然，所以我的意思是說，我覺得政府要正視這個問題，而不是去美化那個數字，比如說我們現在就是三萬多戶可以入住……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有美化，而且這個都是在努力中，而且在執行中，我們還是希望……"],["許委員宇甄：確實就是美化。我知道要努力，但是我們還是來正視這個問題，我覺得這樣比較重要。"],["吳署長欣修：不是，還是要正視是說，我們希望地方政府要持續地努力，因為我們看到的是地方政府越來越不見了……"],["許委員宇甄：中央地方一起來努力，對嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：越來越不見了，所以我們也是要呼籲，希望地方政府要持續地努力來興建。"],["許委員宇甄：那就中央地方一起來努力，我們還是希望我們明確地把這個數字揭露出來，那大家一起來努力好嗎？","最後不好意思，召委再給我一分鐘。我想請教一下劉部長，根據行政院發布的2025年性別圖像的性別不平等指數，原來亞洲第一是臺灣，但現在已經被新加坡超前，也不再是亞洲第一，而且已經連續兩年退步，這次發布的成績也較前次的退步三名。請問部長，您對於民進黨總召柯建銘發表明顯帶有歧視的言論，他嗆聲要盧秀燕市長回歸家庭，請問部長有什麼看法？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我沒有聽到柯總召什麼時候講這些話，我是從媒體上知道的，但是我想任何一個人都不要用性別不平等或是性別不正確的方式來指涉任何人。"],["許委員宇甄：所以部長也認為不該用這樣的一個方式去……"],["劉部長世芳：我已經講過，因為我不清楚柯總召是講什麼話，我希望有完整的內容會比較好，不要斷章取義。"],["許委員宇甄：我想新聞您可以去看一下，新聞都有，絕對沒有斷章取義，您可以去看新聞。所以部長認為，如果柯總召講請盧秀燕市長回歸家庭的話，這樣是不適當的對嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想任何人講這樣的話，不管他是什麼樣子的政黨色彩，對於目前我們所推動的性別平等教育或性別平等都不是很公平，但是我一再強調，我沒有針對個人，因為個人他的前言後語是什麼我並不清楚，很多政治人物講話的部分，我都會比較審慎去看他前面跟後面講的是什麼。"],["許委員宇甄：我很高興聽到部長講到您對於這種性別平等，您是捍衛性別平等的，也不該有這樣歧視的言論，對嗎？您是這樣的？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝指教。"],["許委員宇甄：所以部長，您正在推動地方民代任一性別的保障名額改為三分之一，最近內政部在推動任何一個性別的保障名額。"],["劉部長世芳：是，內政部有這樣的推動。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我想這也攸關於整個政府的性平形象嘛！所以還是希望部長對於性平的部分，我們大家努力來去捍衛，那也希望不要再有這樣歧視的言論。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","下一位我們請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊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包含管理那包含這些設備的更新 包含冷氣等等都是接下來整個包含住都中心 包含國路署 包含這個所有要進行包租代管的業者所會碰到的問題那所以 我想要比較一下"},{"start":356.559,"end":377.064,"text":"所有的縣市裡面我想高雄的社宅的規劃跟興建是跑在最前面那比新北市比桃園市比台北市比台中市都還要都還要多而且都還要快那台中市目前申請租金補貼的比例卻是全國最高"},{"start":378.7,"end":395.765,"text":"它全國最高,但是在社宅的興建上又是在六都裡面排行第五有沒有相關的這些問題來顯示說台中市在財化法規劃下,雖然現在預算才剛公告"},{"start":398.427,"end":418.793,"text":"那接下來部長之前也有大概有說明我們的如果在財化法執行下去的話我們的預算執行可能會減少28%是這個對於大量興建社宅規劃社宅的高雄市與台中市比較不積極這樣比較起來相關的這些補貼你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":422.835,"end":436.27,"text":"應該這麼說啦 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謝謝主席啊 劉部長有請有請部長好 部長辛苦啦這剛剛大家在談這個"},{"start":9.901,"end":36.272,"text":"相關預算一些解凍其實我今天排這個案子不外乎也是為解凍做準備因為我們談租金補貼難免凍結當然就是監督的延伸希望在這個相關居住正義的題目上面我們的政府機關有很好的KPI而且有很好的執行成效那當然大家就不會為難預算那我想目前為止都算有一些進展那沒辦法嘛你總要等預算總統公告失效之後才能開始排解凍案嘛這我想部長也不會反對這是標準的作業流程"},{"start":36.852,"end":64.706,"text":"那本席作為召委我可以在這邊非常開放的跟部長說如果內政部只要準備好相關的報告我們趕快走程序這個你要求本席來做排案解凍我也非常樂意支持就希望內政部速度加快好不好這樣大家都不擔心可以嗎謝謝召委好謝謝剛剛很多委員都談這個這個租賃市場的這些相關的一些改革那不只部長我還拜託主席再幫我們請財政部一起因為我先從大方向開始談"},{"start":67.28,"end":79.144,"text":"剛剛蘇小慧委員有講紅蘿蔔跟棒子然後我們的政府機關不太願意直接面對問題的核心即使如果按照全部大家都叫病叫假都給他課稅的狀況來講房東當然會負擔比較多的稅負"},{"start":82.105,"end":104.395,"text":"那從政府機關的角度他也會擔心所謂有轉嫁的效果就是我收到因為我被課很重的稅啊所以我又變相的調漲了房租壓力其實很大所以其實談這件事情應該要好好思考一個方向也就是說現在的這個房東的租金所得其實是並計他的個人所得嘛通常可以當房東就好一點啊 對不對所以他可能本來的所得就很高了"},{"start":104.995,"end":127.319,"text":"所以他這個房屋的租金所得加在他本來的所得上面他可能課12% 20%甚至40%嘛 對不對所以壓力很大 對不對所以一直都有人在倡議就是說財政部這邊要思考一下把租金所得獨立出來變一個稅務這樣是不是讓我們的行政機關根據你可能要調節市場的狀況有的時候要鼓勵一下有的時候要收緊一下我是不是透過這個稅務跟稅率的調整才能夠比較好針對房東的課稅來做處理"},{"start":131.9,"end":155.974,"text":"部長 劉部長你認同這樣的做法嗎如果我們有一個獨立相關的稅務來討論就是說這個房屋租金所得房屋租金所得稅然後它有一個獨立的稅率的話這樣會不會比較好調控就我們的目的事業主管來講我覺得這是一個很好的方向但是稅務還是不是內政部所主導我不知道我不能說是或是不是我要問你的意見嘛所以你覺得好方向來財政部有沒有針對這件事情做思考"},{"start":156.955,"end":183.426,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在的那個綜合所得稅他的稅率他可能所得很低他是0那他有可能所得很高他可能是40那我們如果在中間切一個稅率譬如說20這個稅率的話那高所得者他會降稅然後是用0或者是5的比較所得低的他就會稅負就會增加那以房東而言其實有很多房東他其實他如果只有出租一兩間兩三間的房屋他的那個稅負算起來因為我們有"},{"start":186.527,"end":198.015,"text":"很高的免稅扣除額這個房東都可以報那另外他的這個租金收入他還可以減43%的費用所以很多房東他如果出租兩間三間四間他其實他整個算起來他的稅負不會很高他可能適用的稅率只有5% 12%那我們如果調高到稅率20%他是增加稅務的我沒有講說他一定20%我講說獨立一個稅務然後你看我們的政策方向來做調整"},{"start":211.104,"end":235.813,"text":"你在這個獨立的稅務裡面你一樣可以有分級的機制嘛你一樣可以有一些相關機制的設定嘛對不對那另外再跟委員報告依照我們實務上跟房東接觸的經驗很多房東他不願意他的租金透明他其實是不想繳稅啊所以不管稅務就在10% 15%所以這第一個嘛你要有獨立稅務第二個這我不反對這我都可以公開講我不反對有所謂的大赦條款"},{"start":236.593,"end":241.557,"text":"因為豬市場黑市的狀況造成的政策負擔跟後果的成本其實遠遠高過你這個"},{"start":243.811,"end":271.725,"text":"幾萬幾萬的這樣一個稅率的所以你如果有現在有獨立的稅務然後搭配所謂的大赦條款是不是讓大家通通可以納管然後進入一個新的秩序本身今天提這個就是你真的要提紅紅波的時候跟棒子的時候其實就是把這個東西進入深水區我希望財政部好好來做思考好不好跟內政部充分來做協商把這個東西列為可能的項目要不然你在現行的情況之下萬一政策遇到瓶頸那還是一樣嘛對不對好不好這第一個大方向要跟大家做思考那財政部再等一下"},{"start":275.115,"end":290.258,"text":"這個前一陣子我們開了這個房租抵稅的記者會因為今年開始有新的這個制度上路嘛好就是說我們又把這個從變成列舉扣除額嘛好把它變成就是說也就是說給給房客有更多的一個減稅的機會但是請問財政部目前的評估有多少房客知道這個事"},{"start":292.742,"end":314.735,"text":"跟委員報告因為今年五月報稅是首次要適用這個新的扣除了那我們大概因為五月報稅我們大概會開始最近就會開始密集的宣導這個新措施這個大利多是對這是一個利多嘛那本期這兩個要求這前一陣子我們記者會我想財政部應該也看到了第一個就房租的資訊其實是有辦法代入你們現在都有報稅系統嘛"},{"start":315.635,"end":331.821,"text":"那其實你抱歉現在其實按照內政部講大概說七十幾萬戶其實都有掌握資料那是不是可以直接做借接系統借接這第一個財政部現在做得到這個事嗎目前系統直接借接沒有辦法因為房客他包括除了他另外有房客的條件那他"},{"start":332.621,"end":353.108,"text":"不是直接內政部那邊過來的資料就可以用如果他技術上有困難你研究一下怎麼樣來突破這沒有關係因為馬上上路嘛我現在要你變出一個新的制度恐怕也為難你這個本席理解但你要往這個方向去思考就是說萬一你的宣導不到位導致今年還是很多人不知道這個利多的時候你的這個系統界階其實是可以補上很大一塊的缺口嘛"},{"start":353.468,"end":365.84,"text":"所以請你去研究也許明年我們來做思考那第二個你好歹要有一個申訴或諮詢的專線吧那萬一遇到了不給報啊或者是說我不知道狀況我想多問一下請問財政部現在針對這樣子有沒有提供相關的一些服務"},{"start":367.502,"end":391.793,"text":"我們報稅諮詢本來就有相關的諮詢的服務是我的意思是說針對新制啦這個抵稅諮詢啦你要特別去講一下有新制諮詢的這個申訴專線啦那你會有提供資料啊這我們要跟我們的租屋朋友來做宣告就是我們會有很多的管道不管是諮詢或者是他的QA沒關係你把它整理出來好那個其實讓大家都去協助去轉發其實都對你的政策宣導是有幫助的好不好好"},{"start":392.993,"end":407.728,"text":"好那謝謝財政部來我們繼續來內政部部長換你了辛苦這我們今天在討論豬市場透明化對不對那前面本席曾經有提過就是說比如說包租代管先來做所謂的實價登錄那當然我們當初的政府機關這個講說"},{"start":409.569,"end":430.096,"text":"這個一步跨得太快我們希望給政府機關一點時間來分的步子來前進這個本席願意尊重也在密切觀察你們的表現所以你們現在推出了這個所謂的租金統計資訊也就是剛剛部長所報告的這個分行政區來做這個這個25分位50分位跟75分位的所謂的租金市場的這個揭露啦那"},{"start":431.776,"end":452.782,"text":"我必須講說有進步但是還有很大的進步空間因為你第一次發布的時候真的只有行政區跟最粗略的版本那照你今年年初發布的稍微細了一點至少開始有一整戶的獨立套房的跟分租的有開始往比較細緻的方向來前進這一點是不錯的但是核心的問題本期還是要透過這一次的質詢來強力的表達"},{"start":454.242,"end":481.691,"text":"第一個你這個租金的統計資訊是沒有獨立系統來 部長你這份PDF檔就是在你的內政部不動產資訊平台的租金統計資訊的PDF檔它的點閱次數是多少你們有統計嗎這個點閱次數我們應該是會查得到但是我目前沒有手邊資料目前沒有對不對你覺得是很多還是很少我認為應該會有一些人會有一些人但是其實知道的人不多啦"},{"start":482.311,"end":510.883,"text":"這以本席的了解啦知道的人恐怕不多沒關係你把點閱數字調出來你會後提供給大家參考因為這是一個重要的指標我為什麼講說要有獨立系統因為那系統就像大家查實價登錄一樣嘛我想買房子的時候我去查實價登錄系統或是我想租房子的時候我也會跟民間的業者去查詢相關的行情要嘛你做出內政部的獨立系統好好推廣要嘛你要跟比如民間的比如說那種591租屋網等等你來做借街也不是壞事你這樣是不是整個的資訊的易達性會比較高好這是本席的第一個提醒"},{"start":511.343,"end":533.972,"text":"中委員報告一下那個有關於推廣的部分我們現在跟591已經有合作那他們會可以連結過來包含我們也通把那個告知所有你跟各個民間有在租房的平台來做串聯啦然後要把這一樣你要把成果附上來因為你現在我可以炒到成果大概只有長這樣第二所以要嘛你有獨立系統要嘛你跟民間解決這第一個建議第二要細分生活圈啦以本期的選區歸三來講"},{"start":535.654,"end":553.014,"text":"這雖然你龜山區是一區對不對跟我龜山區是四個生活圈啊渥渝區回榮跟新莊很靠近渥渝區平頂跟林口很靠近渥渝區跟桃園很靠近渥渝區跟蘆竹很靠近它其實還是有生活圈的差異啦所以我還是希望一步步來做沒有關係我今天講你願意有時間你只要讓我看到每半年有成果"},{"start":553.675,"end":569.074,"text":"這個我都會正面看待因為這本來就要逐步來處理但是你說從行政區要繼續往下走不要只是停在這裡要不然畢竟粗略啊因為一個龜山區我到底以哪一個生活圈為準呢每一個生活圈其實狀況是不一樣的所以我覺得要氣氛生活圈你們有這樣子的打算跟"},{"start":571.836,"end":586.34,"text":"狀況嗎跟委員報告其實跟租屋網借機大概就是一個起步啦因為你也知道說租屋網他才會用一些關鍵的地點我知道委員的意思大概就是說把一些關鍵地點作為一個區分這或許是長期我們可以"},{"start":587,"end":604.174,"text":"逐步來做但是我們當然也會過程會很小心因為因為有些部分因為不管是學區也好或一些關鍵的工作地點那當然常常會有出現租金異常波動的這個我們會在中間再小心的來控制這個部分好第三個是沒有北平的這個租金中位數"},{"start":604.975,"end":628.898,"text":"因為你這個有數字但是還是很粗略啦我現在就講嘛 不管是類別也好 地理位置也好或者是你相關的這個數字也好 你都要更詳細嘛你越詳細你才會越接近透明嘛 對不對來 請回答跟委員報告 那個部分委員建議美萍的那個部分的話我們現在也在研議當中那我們會串接我們的地級資料會知道它的面積有多少"},{"start":629.399,"end":639.3,"text":"那這個部分的話因為會有幾個限制就是可能分出的部分面積就比較難掌握所以我們會從整層跟整套的整層跟整套先做所以我想好"},{"start":641.016,"end":666.889,"text":"這樣子今天提了這三個要求對不對你是每半年更新資料嗎還是多長時間更新資料現在的話規劃是6月跟12月所以我下一次看到更新資料的時候是6月對不對我可以多看到哪些具體的資訊那個有關於美萍的那個租金單價現在已經在做一個處理那因為還要看資料匯進來的一個品質是怎麼樣那這個部分的話我們已經現在演繹當中了"},{"start":667.589,"end":680.361,"text":"好我希望六月可以看到好的結果啦好不好我們就你既然講說給你時間來分來往前走這個我願意給你時間但你要讓讓他讓最後他可以變成一個符合租客權益期待的這樣子的一個版本好這個蕭寶處麻煩一下"},{"start":690.68,"end":705.865,"text":"我也好這個我們每一年都在針對不管是租屋的基於透明化的政策等等其實都涉及這個相關法令的一些修正那麼相關法令的一些修正當然就跟你的契約等等會有一定的聯動跟關係嘛那租賃行為當然是消費市場的行為"},{"start":706.565,"end":723.542,"text":"前一陣子我們台灣市政府查了一下這明明法令一直更新可是市售大概有六成的租賃契約因為大家都用定型化契約嘛一拿一簽蓋章就成立了嘛可是你這六成以上都是舊版然後你就說當然我們就說輔導下架輔導下架有用嗎更新的狀況怎麼樣你有掌握嗎"},{"start":725.298,"end":745.436,"text":"這個更新的部分因為我們內政部長期以來都有定一個計畫從111年以來內政部都有辦一些查核的計畫針對這個市售的通路上面的租賃契約到底合不合規做一些討論然後做一些查核那其中有一年我們也是跟內政部一併去查核我們都會協助他們一起去查核那內政部查核的結果怎麼樣"},{"start":746.429,"end":759.617,"text":"向委員報告除了跟消保處合作之外我們也有延定計畫要求縣市政府這邊要來做一個查核從111年我們第一次的話不合格率的部分就是舊版的話大概是"},{"start":761.678,"end":790.037,"text":"比例 契約的比例大概是三成不過112年跟113年的話就降到5%跟7%所以是有明顯的下降那去年的部分因為電價新制的部分有新的更新的一個契約的一個狀況所以舊版的比例又拉高不過我們這個現在還在持續在做這個方面的一個查核向委員報告這我其中拿一項來提醒你啦比如說要記載這個房屋基本資料等等然後它其實要提供圖說嘛"},{"start":791.278,"end":807.132,"text":"這個就本期的了解在市售的定型化契約上完全沒有預留相關的空間了所以我是覺得既然這個法規都有在滾動式來修正其實你這個定型化契約的範本跟這個你要與時均的更新啊你要讓業者可以馬上跟上啊這樣子才有辦法具體來做下降這是本期的另外一個提醒"},{"start":808.133,"end":834.454,"text":"來最後一個題目不好意思我今天耽誤了一點時間我還是要請部長我們討論一下這個社宅的分級租金制度這去年的十月喔大家這個民團有民團的意見這本席了解那部裡面有部裡面的為難這個我也知道中央有中央的想法地方有地方的想法它是一個很困難的題目但是在大家的追蹤之下這個在去年的十月基本上開始找到共識了大概會是用這樣子的方式來調整我就不多贅述來我請問一下這個"},{"start":837.526,"end":864.891,"text":"署長或者是部長就是這個版本了嗎目前大概就是26號還會用這個版本繼續討論什麼時候會有一個明確的定案應該這麼說這樣分期以後我們還是要了解各縣市政府如果他確定執行的話他可能還會有什麼樣的問題或困擾目前你掌握到的狀況有哪些問題或困難嗎目前來講因為各個縣市對這樣的一個尤其是這個中低收入戶的一個認定"},{"start":865.951,"end":894.913,"text":"那他們當然是期待是說衛福部的這個中低收入的這個數據是他們一般來講是最信任的啦也是大概目前來講比較所以他們回去他們上次回去就說大概回去會按照這個去了解看看看他們這樣是不是確定可以做好這樣的一個分級那第二個就是說因為大概非六都會以中央為準那大概我們也有請駐都也確認看看這樣的一個操作模式這樣是不是確定都可行"},{"start":895.293,"end":924.093,"text":"所以未來就會照這個原則上只要沒有太大的問題就會照這個方向確定定案了嗎大致上會照這個方向OK好那如果喔我多問兩個問題喔如果以採取分級租金現在比如說新北台北桃園啊這個他們也會配合這個版本然後大家做修正嗎還是說他們會再加碼或者是說提供更好的版本這個其實個性是多少有一點為難多少有一點為難對大家制度本來不一樣像桃園像桃園大概應該就很困難因為它現在已經面臨要調整也很辛苦的一個問題"},{"start":924.733,"end":946.801,"text":"所以他們原則上也會follow這個制度嗎希望啦但是不一定能夠做得到因為我們沒有一定強制他做因為各縣市狀況不一樣好這個我希望喔這個趕快溝通因為從完全沒有共識對不對本來是什麼身分別釋價打折跟分級租金收取制度嘛到現在大家開始聚焦那我就希望這個部裡面要多加油啦好不好"},{"start":947.782,"end":957.157,"text":"針對這樣的事情我希望3月26號的會議裡面可以聽到好消息會議的結果一定要讓我們知道因為我們都很關心這個相關政策的一個推動的進度可以嗎好好謝謝部長組長辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時33分）謝謝主席，劉部長有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了。剛剛大家在談相關預算一些解凍的問題，其實我今天排這個案子，不外乎也是為解凍做準備。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為我們談租金補貼難免凍結，當然就是監督的延伸，希望在相關居住正義的題目上面，我們的政府機關有很好的KPI，而且有很好的執行成效，當然大家就不會為難預算。我想目前為止都算有一些進展，沒辦法嘛，你總要等預算總統公告生效之後才能開始排解凍案，這個我想部長也不會反對，這是標準的作業流程。本席作為召委，我可以在這邊非常開放地跟部長說，內政部只要準備好相關的報告，我們趕快走程序，你要求本席來做排案解凍，我也非常樂意支持，希望內政部速度加快好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝召委。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣大家都不擔心，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝召委。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。剛剛很多委員都談租賃市場相關的一些改革，不只部長，我還拜託主席再幫我們請財政部一起，因為我要先從大方向開始談。剛剛蘇巧慧委員有提及紅蘿蔔跟棒子，然後我們的政府機關不太願意直接面對問題的核心，其實如果全部大家都「照品照走」，都給他課稅的狀況來講，房東當然會負擔比較多的稅負，從政府機關的角度來看，也會擔心有轉嫁的效果，因為他被課很重的稅啊！所以他又變相的調漲房租，壓力其實很大，所以談這件事情應該要好好思考一個方向，也就是說，現在房東的租金所得其實是併計他的個人所得，通常可以當房東應該都很有錢，對不對？可能他本來的所得就很高了，所以這個房屋的租金所得加到他本來的所得上面，他可能是課12%、20%甚至40%，對不對？所以壓力很大，因此一直都有人在倡議，就是說財政部這邊要不要思考一下，把租金所得獨立出來變成一個稅目，這樣是不是讓我們的行政機關根據你可能要調節市場的狀況，有的時候要鼓勵一下，有的時候要收緊一下？是不是透過這個稅目跟稅率的調整，才能夠比較好針對房東的課稅來做處理？劉部長，你認同這樣的作法嗎？如果我們有一個獨立相關的稅目，就是說這個房屋租金所得、房屋租金所得稅，然後有一個獨立的稅率的話，這樣會不會比較好調控？"],["劉部長世芳：就我們的目的事業主管來講，我覺得這是一個很好的方向，但是稅負不是內政部所主掌，我不能說是或是不是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，我要問你的意見嘛，所以你覺得是一個好方向，那財政部有沒有針對這件事情做思考？"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，我們現在綜合所得稅的稅率，他可能所得很低，他是0，他有可能所得很高，他可能是40，我們如果在中間切一個稅率，譬如說20這個稅率的話，那高所得者會降稅，然後適用0或者是5這些所得比較低的，稅負就會增加。以房東而言，其實很多房東如果只有出租一、兩間、兩、三間房屋，他的稅負算起來……因為我們有很高的免稅額、扣除額，這個房東都可以報，另外，這個租金收入他還可以減43%的費用，所以很多房東如果出租兩間、三間、四間，其實整個算起來，他的稅負不會很高，他可能適用的稅率只有5%、12%，我們如果調高到稅率20%，他是增加稅負的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我沒有講說他一定是20%，我是講說獨立一個稅目，然後你看我們的政策方向來做調整，在這個獨立的稅目裡面，你一樣可以有分級的機制，一樣可以有一些相關機制的設定，對不對？"],["倪副署長麗心：另外再跟委員報告，依照我們實務上跟房東接觸的經驗，很多房東不願意租金透明，他其實是不想繳稅，所以不管……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！問題在這裡嘛！"],["倪副署長麗心：所以不管稅負在10%、15%，他其實還是……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這第一個，要有獨立稅負。第二個，我不反對，我都可以公開講，我不反對有所謂的大赦條款，因為租屋市場黑市的狀況造成政策負擔跟後果的成本，其實遠遠高過幾萬、幾萬的稅率，所以如果現在有獨立的稅目，再搭配所謂的大赦條款，是不是讓大家統統可以納管，然後進入一個新的秩序？本席今天提這個，就是你真的要提紅蘿蔔跟棒子的時候，其實就是把這個東西進入深水區，我希望財政部好好思考，好不好？跟內政部充分協商，把這個東西列為可能的項目，要不然在現行情況之下，萬一政策遇到瓶頸，那還是一樣嘛！對不對？這第一個大方向來跟大家思考。財政部再等一下。","前一陣子我們開了房租抵稅記者會，因為今年開始有新的制度上路，就是說我們又把這個變成列舉扣除額，也就是說給房客有更多的減稅機會，但是請問財政部目前的評估，有多少房客知道這個事？"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，因為今年5月報稅是首次要適用這個新的扣除額。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["倪副署長麗心：因為是5月報稅，我們大概最近就會開始密集宣導這個新措施，這個大利多。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，這是一個利多。本席有兩個要求，前一陣子我們的記者會，我想財政部應該也看到了，第一個，房租的資訊其實是有辦法帶入，你們現在都有報稅系統，按照內政部講，大概七十幾萬戶都有掌握資料，是不是可以直接做系統介接？這第一個，財政部現在做得到這個事嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：目前系統直接介接沒有辦法，因為房客報扣除額另外有房客的條件，並不是直接內政部那邊過來的資料就可以用。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。如果技術上有困難，你研究一下怎麼樣來突破，這沒有關係，因為馬上上路，而我現在要你變出一個新的制度，恐怕也為難你，這個本席理解，但你要往這個方向去思考，就是說萬一宣導不到位，導致今年還是有很多人不知道這個利多的時候，這個系統介接其實是可以補上很大一塊缺口，所以請你去研究，也許明年我們來做思考。第二個，好歹要有一個申訴或諮詢的專線吧？萬一遇到不給報，或者是不知道狀況想多問一下的，請問財政部現在針對這樣子有沒有提供相關的一些服務？"],["倪副署長麗心：我們報稅諮詢本來就有相關的諮詢服務。"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是針對這個新制，就是抵稅諮詢啦！"],["倪副署長麗心：可以，新制可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要特別去講一下有新制諮詢的申訴專線。"],["倪副署長麗心：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：會後提供資料，因為我們要跟我們的租屋朋友宣導。"],["倪副署長麗心：我們會有很多管道，不管是諮詢或者是QA，或是什麼都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你把它整理出來。"],["倪副署長麗心：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：讓大家都去協助、去轉發，其實對你的政策宣導都是有幫助的，好不好？謝謝財政部。","我們繼續，內政部部長，換你了，辛苦！我們今天討論租屋市場透明化，對不對？前面本席曾經有提過，比如包租代管先做所謂的實價登錄，當然當初政府機關有說一步跨得太快，我們希望給政府機關一點時間逐步前進，這個本席願意尊重，也在密切觀察你們的表現。所以你們現在推出了所謂的租金統計資訊，也就是剛剛部長所報告的分行政區做25分位、50分位跟75分位所謂的租金市場揭露，我必須說有進步，但是還有很大的進步空間，因為第一次發布的時候，真的只有行政區跟最粗略的版本，照你今年年初發布的，稍微細了一點，至少開始有一整戶的、獨立套房的跟分租的，有開始往比較細緻的方向前進，這一點是不錯的。但是核心的問題，本席還是要透過這次的質詢強烈表達，第一個，這個租金的統計資訊是沒有獨立系統的，部長，這一份PDF檔，就是在內政部不動產資訊平臺的租金統計資訊PDF檔點閱次數是多少？你們有統計嗎？"],["饒處長志堅：點閱次數我們應該是會查得到，但是目前手邊沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：目前沒有對不對？"],["饒處長志堅：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得是很多，還是很少？"],["饒處長志堅：我認為應該會有一些人知道。"],["牛委員煦庭：會有一些人？但其實知道的人不多，以本席的了解，知道的人恐怕不多，沒關係，你把點閱數字調出來，會後提供給大家參考。"],["饒處長志堅：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這是一個重要的指標，我為什麼說要有獨立系統？因為那個系統就像大家查實價登錄一樣，我想買房子的時候去查實價登錄系統，或是我想租房子的時候，我也會跟民間業者去查詢相關的行情，要嘛你做出內政部的獨立系統好好推廣，要嘛你跟民間的比如說591租屋網等等做介接，也不是壞事！這樣是不是整個資訊的易達性會比較高？這是本席的第一個提醒，你要回答嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告一下，有關於推廣的部分，我們現在跟591已經有合作，他們可以連結過來，包含我們告知所有……"],["牛委員煦庭：跟各個民間有在租房的平臺做串聯。"],["林代理司長家正：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：一樣，你要把成果附上來，因為現在我可以查到的成果大概只有長這樣。"],["林代理司長家正：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以，要嘛你有獨立系統，要嘛你跟民間介接，這是第一個建議。第二個，要細分生活圈。以本席的選區龜山來講，雖然龜山區是一區，可是龜山區是四個生活圈，我有一區迴龍跟新莊很靠近，有一區坪頂跟林口很靠近，有一區跟桃園很靠近，還有跟蘆竹很靠近，它其實還是有生活圈的差異，所以我還是希望，一步一步來做沒有關係，我今天講，你願意有時間，你只要讓我看到每半年有成果，這個我都會正面看待，因為這本來就要逐步來處理，但是除了從行政區，要繼續往下走，不要只是停在這裡，要不然畢竟粗略。因為一個龜山區，到底要以哪一個生活圈為準呢？每一個生活圈其實狀況是不一樣的，所以我覺得要細分生活圈，你們有這樣子的打算跟狀況嗎？吳署長回答一下，沒關係。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實跟租屋網介接大概就是一個起步，因為你也知道租屋網才會用一些關鍵的地點。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["吳署長欣修：我知道委員的意思，大概就是把一些關鍵地點做為一個區分，這或許是長期我們可以逐步來做的，但是過程我們當然也會很小心，因為有些部分不管是學區也好，或一些關鍵的工作地點，當然常常會出現租金異常波動的，這個我們會在中間再小心控制。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。第三個是沒有每坪的租金中位數，你這個有數字，但是還是很粗略。我現在就講，不管是類別也好，地理位置也好，或者是相關的數字也好，都要更詳細，越詳細才會越接近透明，對不對？來，請回答。"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告，委員建議每坪的那個部分，我們現在也在研議當中，我們會串接地籍資料，會知道它的面積有多少。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，可以串接地籍資料。"],["林代理司長家正：這個部分的話，因為會有幾個限制，就是可能分租的部分，面積就比較難掌握。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["林代理司長家正：所以我們會從整層跟整套的……"],["牛委員煦庭：整層跟整套先做。"],["林代理司長家正：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子，今天提了三個要求，對不對？你是每半年更新一次資料嗎？還是多長時間更新一次資料？"],["林代理司長家正：現在規劃是6月跟12月。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以我下一次看到更新資料的時候是6月，對不對？"],["林代理司長家正：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我可以多看到哪些具體的資訊？"],["林代理司長家正：有關於每坪的租金單價，現在已經在處理，因為還要看資料匯進來的品質是怎麼樣，這個部分我們現在已經在研議當中了。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我希望6月可以看到好的結果，好不好？你既然講給你時間往前走，我願意給你時間，但是你要讓最後可以變成一個符合租客權益期待的版本。","消保處麻煩一下。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們每一年都在針對租屋不管是基於透明化政策等等，其實都涉及相關法令的一些修正。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：相關法令的修正當然就跟契約等等會有一定的連動跟關係，租賃行為當然是消費市場的行為，前一陣子桃園市政府查了一下，明明法令一直更新，可是市售大概有六成的租賃契約因為大家都用定型化契約，一拿了蓋章就成立了嘛！"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是這六成以上都是舊版，當然我們是說輔導下架，輔導下架有用嗎？更新的狀況怎麼樣？你有掌握嗎？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：有關更新的部分，因為內政部長期以來都有訂一個計畫，從111年以來，內政部都有辦一些查核計畫，針對市售通路上面的租賃契約到底合不合規做一些討論，然後做一些查核，其中有一年我們也是跟內政部一併去查核，我們都會協助他們一起去查核。"],["牛委員煦庭：內政部，查核的結果怎麼樣？"],["林代理司長家正：向委員報告，除了跟消保處合作之外，我們也有研訂計畫要求縣市政府要查核。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，大家都配合查，也查到了，後面怎麼辦？"],["林代理司長家正：從111年第一次，不合格率的部分，就是舊版契約的比例大概是三成，不過112年跟113年就降到5%跟7%了，所以是有明顯的下降。去年因為電價新制的部分有更新契約的狀況，所以舊版的比例又拉高，不過我們現在還在持續做這方面的查核，向委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：其中我拿一項來提醒你，比如說要記載房屋基本資料等等，然後是要提供圖說，就本席的了解，在市售定型化契約上完全沒有預留相關的空間，所以我是覺得既然法規都有在滾動式修正，那麼定型化契約的範本要與時俱進更新，要讓業者可以馬上跟上，這樣子才有辦法具體下降，這是本席的另外一個提醒。","最後一個題目，不好意思，我今天耽誤了一點時間，我還是要請部長，我們討論一下社宅的分級租金制度。去年10月，民團有民團的意見，這個本席了解，那部裡面有部裡面的為難，這個我也知道；中央有中央的想法，地方有地方的想法，它是一個很困難的題目。但是在大家的追蹤之下，在去年10月基本上開始找到共識了，大概會是用這樣子的方式來調整，我就不多贅述。","我請問一下署長或者部長，就是這個版本了嗎？未來收費的標準。"],["吳署長欣修：26日還會用這個版本繼續討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼時候會有一個明確的定案？26日……"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，這樣分級以後，我們還是要了解各縣市政府如果確定執行的話，它可能還會有什麼樣的問題或困擾，尤其在資料的取得……"],["牛委員煦庭：目前你掌握到的狀況有哪些問題或困難嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：目前來講，因為各個縣市對這個，尤其是中低收入戶的認定，當然期待說衛福部的中低收入的數據，是他們一般來講最信任的，也是大概在目前來講比較……"],["牛委員煦庭：有公信力的？"],["吳署長欣修：他們上次回去就說，大概回去會按照這個去了解看看……"],["牛委員煦庭：算一下。"],["吳署長欣修：看他們是不是確定可以做好這樣的一個分級。第二個，因為大概非六都會以中央為準，當然我們也請住都確認看看這樣的操作模式是不是確定都可行。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以未來就會照這個，原則上只要沒有太大的問題就會照這個方向確定定案了嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：大致上會照這個方向。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。我多問兩個問題，如果以採取分級租金，現在比如新北、臺北、桃園，他們也會配合這個版本然後大家做修正嗎？還是他們會再加碼，或者提供更好……"],["吳署長欣修：其實各縣市多少有一點為難。"],["牛委員煦庭：多少有點為難，對，大家的制度本來不一樣。"],["吳署長欣修：對，像桃園應該就很困難，因為它現在已經面臨要調整的問題也很辛苦。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以他們原則上也會follow這個制度？"],["吳署長欣修：希望啦！但是不一定能夠做得到，我們沒有一定強制它做，因為各縣市狀況不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我希望這個趕快溝通，因為從完全沒有共識，本來是什麼「身分別市價打折」和分級租金收取制度，到現在大家開始聚焦，那我就希望部裡面要多加油，好不好？針對這樣的事情，我希望3月26日的會議裡面可以聽到好消息，會議的結果一定要讓我們知道，因為我們都很關心相關政策的推動進度，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長、署長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","接下來請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc03348c700c7f8350e8313c4daf57d80ade5f5281f5900dffbebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"10:24:44 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請我們劉副長請副長先喝一口茶沒關係先喝一口茶好 感謝副長我們今天要討論我們這個租房市場的問題我們租房市場的主要年齡階層都等於我們這個30歲以下左右這個年輕人近期我們這個民間"},{"start":29.076,"end":31.318,"text":"統計數據,在房價比較高的各國所購房屋,平均都已經到40倍,代表我們出銷的醫療超過10年,都要靠這個做出來度過,所以我們"},{"start":44.968,"end":47.63,"text":"這個房租是年輕人最實在的一個基礎對我們年輕人來說這個房價以外比較實在這個房租的問題但是以我們的組織總署的統計"},{"start":61.299,"end":65.781,"text":"出租的基礎是超過1.6%這個收益持續創下歷史新高再來看這幾年的數據出租的年增率有1.5%"},{"start":77.247,"end":82.868,"text":"這是連鎖19個月超過過分1年4年以來累積造福已經到過程中這個怕人的受益凸顯出這個租屋主他的壓力當然這一直攀高的租金我們來經過當過過端各項進程也都最近這幾年有開始推動這個租屋補貼或是這個高租代管或是這個社會主宰"},{"start":106.134,"end":111.677,"text":"顯然政府的努力要是國土租金的上漲再來眼看今年那個電價可能又要上漲今天還有一顆高峰所以今天請國長報告這個租賃市場的這個報告讓我們政府可以加強才可以真正的廣授到我們的租屋者"},{"start":132.211,"end":133.692,"text":"現在還是沒有辦法由行政院的公務預算來撥補"},{"start":156.304,"end":165.873,"text":"我想我們會非常的努力來幫忙尤其是年輕的租屋的族群跟委員報告一下像目前我們現在所核定的64萬戶裡面40歲以下的大概佔54%"},{"start":170.717,"end":185.778,"text":"也就是說將近有34.7萬戶的青年族群是走我們這個租金補貼的部分那也希望委員能夠多多幫忙就是租金補貼的部分在未來在山洞的部分不要再走這個山跟洞的方式"},{"start":186.198,"end":205.893,"text":"因為要不然到年底的時候我們會可能要減少他這個租金補貼或者會降低他租金補貼的申請戶數這是我們最大的期盼那在雲林縣雖然說雲林縣是農業大縣可是雲林縣也是有很多申請租金補貼的部分在定位碗理所服務的婚姻館裡面申請這個合併戶數已經是13,383戶裡面大概超過1億"},{"start":216.261,"end":234.606,"text":"需要撥款的金額是超過一億啦但是到十一月的時候會用慶米紅裡面就沒有米拜託你倒三天他還可以我們應該我們的結帳我不知道這是立法院的程序我們要尊重立法院的程序所以這可能我們來經過要跟立法院要跟我們我們現在已經跟立法院在溝通我們內政部是跟著行政院的這個政策方向來走的"},{"start":245.769,"end":247.991,"text":"好啦 其實把我們這個與省用餘在民間 用餘在民生上我們是一定都全力支持啦 一定全力支持 相信說我們國中你也知道說 我連一戶人"},{"start":263.643,"end":273.148,"text":"一個人也沒有跟你們同時一個人也沒有跟你們刪除 依賴的過分但是我們不能這樣用 因為沒有白紙黑紙給我們行政院的公文 我們不能這樣用公文我們沒辦法照顧他們的法律犯罪依賴來做這些事情 這是縣跟縣溝通的部分我們是將對地方"},{"start":288.575,"end":291.256,"text":"的訴求來給我們鼓掌歡迎當然這個委員會前面有討論我們委員都要求來清國要強化這個資金的價格的揭露但一直以來我們政府"},{"start":303.749,"end":309.535,"text":"有連這個實際房東房客數量到底多少我們要求說有一個很明顯的確定沒有沒有 我跟那個委員報告一下我剛才有在我們的報告裡面說到只要是公勃文裡面包括包租代管或者是我們的住宅"},{"start":320.506,"end":346.605,"text":"或者是我們可以有效掌握到我們已經公佈了大約六成那另外的沒有辦法公佈的部分可能譬如說他的那個他是私人跟私人之間的這個契約你要去掌握到他的契約真的是非常的不容易那現在我們就是想辦法要縮小譬如說只要能夠介入我知道財政部有要提供多少減稅措施"},{"start":347.506,"end":363.398,"text":"但是有些房東他可能也不願意他覺得說我如果提供我的租金的範圍之後雖然可以減稅但是大家都知道我租了多少錢還有重要的就是他提供的這個價格他提供的這個租金到底是對還是不對那我們沒有辦法公部門沒有辦法幫私人的民法契約上面的這個租賃條約跟他做這個保證說我這個保證這個要做一萬塊是一萬塊還是真的太萬二塊"},{"start":376.428,"end":381.871,"text":"所以事實上我們現在公佈了在公佈門能夠公佈出去的租金市場是做定貓譬如說我們在刀絡或是在粉林這個地方有某一個社宅或是某一個區域裡面我們公佈大概這個價格是多少的話其他的人可以來稍微看一下差不多這個介紹不要吵架太多了這個鄉鎮啦這個鄉鎮其實有可能因為是有很多的介紹"},{"start":404.265,"end":413.156,"text":"因為我們分成四分位然後根據他的房型又分了大概分成三所以其中有十二個部分是可以做處理的差不多這個區塊啦你不可能一間一間啦這個區塊如果多了這樣啦"},{"start":420.465,"end":424.807,"text":"他們這個廣場起來做活動對 他是幾層的 或是幾戶 或是一戶的 或是獨立套房這我們都有分區在做但是我們這個只能達到定毛的效果因為房子又有新又有古 還有一間一座或是外座 還有地段"},{"start":437.532,"end":461.208,"text":"這個博文是比較複雜,但是我們盡量朝著透明化來發展但是百分之百透明化,按照台灣是一個尊重法治跟尊重私人的個資的話是做不到的啦好,還有一項問題,就是我們這個我們這個租網站訊息的這個系統,我們現在的公告是朝日當時的半年以後,下一次什麼時候"},{"start":465.29,"end":482.931,"text":"我們預計我們現在已經就是去年3月去年8月跟今年1月已經公佈那我們預計在今年的6月跟今年的12月會再公佈那個新的這些租這會持續的調整應該不是公格後的最終的版本"},{"start":484.713,"end":504.665,"text":"每一次都會公佈出來新的就表示說我們繼續收集這個統計資料看起來我們大概是每半年會公佈一次像屋齡類型一樣一樣我們在統計上面這個很容易做得到譬如說屋齡一定是越來越老不可能越來越新這個是不可能的好感謝國定感謝朱先生謝謝好謝謝丁學忠委員的支持"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（10時24分）感謝主席，請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：請部長。"],["丁委員學忠：先喝一口茶，沒關係。感謝部長，我們今天要討論租房市場的問題，租房市場主要年齡階層都在30歲以下左右的年輕人，根據民間的統計數據，在房價比較高的北部，首購房屋的平均年齡都已經將近40歲，代表出社會以後有超過10年的時間要靠租房子來度過，所以房租是年輕人最實際的支出。","對年輕人來說，房價以外比較實際的是房租的問題，但依主計總處的統計，上個月房租指數差不多108.06%，這個數據持續創下歷史新高，再看這幾年的數據，房租年增率達2.56%，連續19個月超過2%，四年以來累積漲幅已經到8.3%，這個驚人的數字凸顯出租屋族的壓力。對於這個一直攀高的租金，內政部在最近這幾年也有提出各項政策，開始推動租屋補貼或是包租代管及社會住宅，顯然我們政府的努力還是沒有辦法阻止租金的上漲。眼看今年電價可能又要上漲，恐怕還有一波的高峰，所以今天請部長來針對租賃市場做報告，看我們的政策是否可以加強，這樣才可以真正幫助到租屋者，請部長回答一下。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員的關心。針對租金補貼的部分，事實上也很感謝立法院願意在很多法律上面幫忙我們，但是我們今年遇到最大的就是114年300億元的中央擴大租金補貼的部分，大概有兩百億元現在還是沒有辦法由行政院的公務預算來撥補，我想我們會非常的努力來幫忙尤其是年輕的租屋族群。","跟委員報告一下，目前我們所核定的64萬戶裡面，40歲以下的大概占54%，也就是說，將近有34.7萬戶的青年族群是走我們這個租金補貼的部分，也希望委員能夠多多幫忙，就是租金補貼的部分，未來在刪凍的部分，不要再走刪跟凍的方式，要不然到年底的時候我們可能要減少這個租金補貼，或者會降低租金補貼的申請戶數，這是我們最大的期盼。在雲林縣，雖然雲林縣是農業大縣，可是雲林縣也是有很多申請租金補貼的部分，在丁委員所服務的雲林縣裡面，核定戶數已經有1萬3,383戶，裡面大概是超過一億，現在需要撥款的金額是超過一億，但是到11月的時候會用罄，米缸裡面就沒米了，要拜託你來幫忙。"],["丁委員學忠：據我所知，我們應該會解凍。"],["劉部長世芳：我不知道，這是立法院的程序，我們要尊重立法院的程序。"],["丁委員學忠：對啦！所以可能內政部要跟立法院……"],["劉部長世芳：我們行政院已經在跟立法院溝通，我們內政部是跟著行政院的政策方向來走的。"],["丁委員學忠：其實把我們這個預算用於民間、用於民生上，我們一定是全力支持。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：相信部長也知道，我連一塊錢也沒有凍結，一塊錢也沒有刪除，就我的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：我們尊重委員，但是我們不敢這樣用，因為沒有白紙黑字給我們行政院的公文，我們是不敢這樣用，公務員沒辦法在法律限制以外來做這些事情。"],["丁委員學忠：這是院跟院溝通的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：是、是、是。"],["丁委員學忠：我們是針對地方的需求來跟我們部長反映，去年委員會有在討論，我們委員都要求內政部要強化租金價格的揭露，但是一直以來，我們政府連實際房東、房客數量到底有多少，還是沒有一個很明確的數字。"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告一下，我剛才有在我們的報告裡面提到，只要是公部門裡面，包括包租代管，或者是我們的住宅，或者是我們可以有效掌握到的，我們已經公布了大約六成，另外沒有辦法公布的部分，譬如說他是私人跟私人之間的契約，你要去掌握到他的契約，真的是非常不容易。現在我們就是想辦法要縮小，譬如說只要能夠介入，我知道財政部有要提供比較多的減稅措施，但是有些房東可能也不願意，他覺得如果提供他的租金範圍之後，雖然可以減稅，但是大家都知道他租了多少錢，而且重要的就是他提供的這個價格、他提供的這個租金到底是對還是不對？我們沒有辦法、公部門沒有辦法幫私人的民法契約上的租賃條約來做保證，保證說這個要租1萬塊是1萬塊，還是他真的是收1萬2,000塊，我不敢做這樣的保證，所以事實上我們現在公布了在公部門能夠公布出去的租金市場是做定錨，譬如說，我們在斗六或是在雲林這個地方的某一個社宅或是某一個區域裡面，我們公布大概這個價格是多少的話，其他的人可以稍微看一下，差不多是這個價格，不要超過太多。"],["丁委員學忠：一個鄉鎮、一個鄉鎮市可能也是有分很多價格。"],["劉部長世芳：有，我們分成四分位，然後根據他的房型大概分成三類，所以其中有12個部分是可以做處理的，差不多是這個區塊，你不可能是一間、一間，就是這個區塊大概多少。"],["丁委員學忠：對啦，區分他們的房價才有辦法知道……"],["劉部長世芳：對，它是整層的，還是整戶，還是一戶的，還是獨立套房，我們都有分開在做，但是我們這個只能達到定錨的效果，因為房子有新、有舊，還有他願意租還是不要租，還有地段，這個部分是比較複雜，我們儘量朝著透明化來發展，但是要百分之百透明化，按照臺灣是一個尊重法治跟尊重私人的個資的話，是做不到的啦！"],["丁委員學忠：還有一個問題，就是關於我們租屋網站訊息的系統，我們下一次公告差不多是什麼時候？"],["饒處長志堅：去年3月、去年8月跟今年1月的部分我們已經公布，我們預計在今年6月跟今年12月會再公布新的租屋……"],["丁委員學忠：這個會持續調整，應該不是公告後就是最終的版本吧。"],["劉部長世芳：不會、不會，我們每一次都會公布出來新的，表示我們繼續蒐集這個統計資料，看起來我們大概是每半年會公布一次。"],["丁委員學忠：像屋齡、類型……"],["劉部長世芳：一樣、一樣，會的，我們在統計上面這個很容易做得到，譬如說屋齡一定是越來越老，不可能越來越新，這是不可能的。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝部長、感謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，也謝謝部長。接下來我們請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0b19e82d516de51198313c4daf57d80ade5f5281f5900dffb0a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:15:38 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勞工放假本來就是已經存在那但是勞動節當天要變成全國放假的話是其他非勞保的這些人的放假那這個有討論的空間但是討論多少的空間的話跟我們的實施辦法並沒有絕對的相關"},{"start":124.82,"end":149.995,"text":"謝謝部長 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內容總共是七頁半結果前面的五頁都是在幫內政部說我們內政部做了哪些事做得多好結果民眾最想知道的那一部分就是未來我們政府該如何改善跟精進相關的內容只有一頁左右而已我想今天內政部的報告在民眾眼裡面是非常的敷衍又不及格"},{"start":286.601,"end":300.968,"text":"那我想今天內政委員會排定內政部來報告就是希望能夠聽聽內政部你們怎麼來具體的改善我們台灣未來租屋市場長年資訊不透明的問題嘛在這邊本席也希望喔身為不動產買賣出租議題的主管機關"},{"start":304.435,"end":320.147,"text":"內政部應該更加負起責任讓民眾看到你們有意願再向前走一步幫助民眾掌握市場的實際供需量跟交易的金額然後進一步來制定相對應的多元居住政策"},{"start":321.128,"end":339.382,"text":"讓房東房客都能夠更有疾可尋有醫可尋透過更加透明的規則使得租屋的市場邁向更健康成熟的方向那這邊本期也具體的建議我想除了修法相關的修法之外政府現在其實就可以做一件事情"},{"start":340.287,"end":357.162,"text":"就是將我們手邊大量的這個租屋市場的資訊做定期性的分析跟報告我們公佈各區域之間的租屋價格的區間我們建立一個官方的平台我們公佈我們北京百分之百都公佈了是好我們讓我們的租屋組可以有需求就可以進行比較嘛"},{"start":357.842,"end":361.807,"text":"讓我們房東在訂價格的時候他也有一個參考依據租客也大概知道說我大概市場在哪邊我們避免租的黑市持續的損害我們租客的權益請我們內政部下半部分能夠來演繹這個事情"},{"start":376.844,"end":392.243,"text":"謝謝委員我們剛剛已經回答過很多委員就是公部門能夠掌握的租屋市場的資訊已經公布所以現在租屋市場百分之六成總共六成是有效租約的話是我們內政部公布而且已經公布兩次了這個在租屋市場是有定毛的效果"},{"start":392.944,"end":411.872,"text":"那但是那個剛剛委員所垂詢的就是說不管你是要提出比較好的管制措施或是比較好的引導措施在法律上我們能做的已經做到非常多但是比較重點就是說我剛剛一再強調的說租屋市場的實況因為它是現行民法規定這個是私人對私人之間"},{"start":412.492,"end":421.558,"text":"他們的這個實價登錄的部分不容易讓他可以對外公佈那如果他們都是提供不實的資訊讓我們公部門來公佈的話反而會影響到租屋市場的部分那再來就是說剛剛委員有提到你說在台東的地區啊當然那個社經階層啊比較這個不高的部分的話呢可能要申請租金比較不容易我跟委員報告一下台東縣到目前為止我們核定的這個租金補貼的戶數已經有4107戶"},{"start":441.63,"end":461.178,"text":"那現在所要撥款的金額高達是4000多萬所以事實上在很多不管是非六都的這個偏鄉地區申請租金補貼相當的多那我們的內政部的立場不一定是站在這個房東的立場我們是站在比較多數族群的這個租客的市場的上面來做幫忙但是如果我們現在強制他們要做不實的實價登錄"},{"start":466.44,"end":474.928,"text":"反而發生很多法律上糾紛的時候整個租屋市場反而不利於租客也就是說房東要出租啊啦那我們現在說房東如果出租太貴怎麼辦那太貴怎麼辦有很多不同的方式我們提出了要可以幫房東來減稅可是他們要不要報稅的問題呢那大概就是我們不要跟財政部一起來努力還有一個那個租期很短"},{"start":489.281,"end":503.2,"text":"有的人他去那邊三個月那我們要求他三個月就要把租金就直接要做實價登錄實價登錄放在我們公佈門的網站他這個租賃契約可能已經解約了那另外按照我們現在行政院消保會的規定"},{"start":504.261,"end":522.386,"text":"譬如說包括這個管理費水電等等這些啦都要把它弄非常清楚不可以劣跡進去我們已經在去年就公佈所以事實上呢是一步一步的採取穩健跟往前推動的市場倒不是委員所說的早上內政部都沒有在處理現在我們所根據的法律或條例上的規範我們能夠處理的部分只要不涉及個資的我們幾乎都是採取開放而且馬上對外公佈"},{"start":529.188,"end":539.004,"text":"好 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請主席長 是我個人一向很尊敬您我也是尊敬您 謝謝我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性我內心表達非常敬重但是我昨天 還是昨天 前兩天看到新聞看到說您有一個 您上了一個是節目嗎 還是上了一個宣講的場合"},{"start":27.85,"end":35.964,"text":"是吧 參加一個大罷免的活動嘛對吧 有吧我不是參加大罷免活動我是在宣講政策是宣講喔"},{"start":37.296,"end":58.778,"text":"我覺得我看著你 我看你一上台就拿著稿開始念吧我不知道你念的那句話是 就應該是人家寫給你的吧照稿讀啊 那我心裡覺得很難過啊就覺得好像是被人家拿一個東西教你念前面那一段啊 前面那一段啊 說什麼你是怎樣是怎樣我覺得我心裡很感慨啦因為我覺得到底你是去宣講呢 還是去亂講啊"},{"start":60.103,"end":84.895,"text":"我主要是在講台上文化法修正的一個困境你身為主計長我對我們的行政官員事實上都一向很尊重那我們這些行政官員尤其是政務官應該要保持一定的高度在我來看都當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置而且是讓人家敬重的那至少你要去宣講政策當然是行政院要求要去宣講政策職責所在那宣講的內容也應該照這個"},{"start":87.856,"end":107.568,"text":"比較 我們來看一下妳說了什麼嘛那妳知道去參加以前 妳知道這是民進黨在做這個全台大辦有一個造勢的場合嗎不是 因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的一個場合所以妳認為這個是很適合出現的嗎主計官隊來講 各地的主辦都很中立的角色啊"},{"start":108.914,"end":129.575,"text":"你覺得你適合參加嗎所以你不知道他是罷免的場合就對了因為他們在那邊講罷免啊有人上去演啊罷免啊重點是宣導政策所以你認為你是去宣導政策不是說去講反罷免這個事你沒有這樣的想法所以你身為主席連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了"},{"start":130.416,"end":157.879,"text":"不是沒有 而是認為說我不是這樣子我們來看一下你現場提供的資料好不好我們來看你提供的資料正不正確你宣講有沒有像你看這個你現場提供的三立的報導金省前跟金省後這是你在人民市頭加的政策宣講原來金省前28財化法的這是財化法這個稅率劃分情形之前是28.9直銷三縣市台灣省政府是11嘛中央政府是60.1嘛那金省後"},{"start":158.699,"end":180.136,"text":"這個您提供24.6% 省政委的部分是11% 中央政委的部分是64.4%這個是你做的表沒錯吧 是那這個表裡頭 我想請問你你做這個表的意思是說 經審前跟經審後 因為你看71.1%跟75.4%嘛所以中央只有增加4%的意思是嗎"},{"start":181.158,"end":208.877,"text":"我的意思是說這個部分必須考量原來台灣省政府的業務的部分當初我們中央是有承接雖然收入有承接但是支出同樣有承接是是那這是講收入我先討論收入的部分我知道支出都當然有承接那所以你們這個你做這個表嘛把這個畫起來左邊是71.1右邊是75.4那意思是說中央只增加了4點多的收入是嗎"},{"start":210.097,"end":236.907,"text":"對中央就是說等於說地方他減少了4點多的一個收入就經省後地方只有減少4點多嘛對所以在你這個表格裡頭省政府是屬於中央嘛對不對因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到在你這個表格因為我們說左邊經省錢啦在你的裡頭省政府也算中央的是是嗎好下一頁來中華民國憲法第108條省政府是中央海地方"},{"start":239.124,"end":254.522,"text":"按照憲法規範你身為中華民國主席長中華民國憲法第108條中央是中央地方業務包括什麼省市省政府縣市政府所以你這個表格是我覺得是意圖在這個誤導民眾啊"},{"start":257.418,"end":270.777,"text":"我是針對整個一個稅務裁員你用這個表格我知道但是我知道你把那弄很清楚但你把它弄成71.1好像是只有增加4%地方減少那麼少地方好像只減少4%但事實上就是不是這樣子"},{"start":272.503,"end":298.965,"text":"你這個誇號像精神前中央只增加不到5%然後你把精神前省也算成中央這個是在欺騙百姓因為你是行政官員你當初宣誓的時候是宣誓是按照中華民國憲法宣誓要遵守憲法所以在百姓宣導證的時候你必須要合憲合法你現在馬上到旁邊的幕僚把他給我翻中華民國憲法第108條省算是中央海地方"},{"start":300.291,"end":327.638,"text":"因為經省以後他的業務是移到中央來辦的沒錯嘛 那錢也是移過來嘛所以地方的錢是變少嘛地方的錢也變少嘛 沒錯嘛我的意思是說 你要講說因為茶葉法我是主審的 我非常了解你要說地方的中央事情變多 錢變多 事情也變多那現在如果茶葉法要這樣畫那我們也必須要把這個一些事權下放這點我都同意 我也都尊重"},{"start":328.038,"end":347.204,"text":"所以我在這裡一直在講說那內政部提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊交通部經濟部各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情既然前面採劃法分給地方那地方多做一點把事權劃出來啊我請各個部會提出相關的修法這個是各個部會應該提出他們沒做嘛對不對"},{"start":348.064,"end":368.423,"text":"他們必須這樣做嘛 那你們主計處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本是你們一直不願意提出版本嘛 我們苦等再等 一等再等從六月份等到九月份 再從九月份等到十二月份 都沒有 我們就只好修法嘛我們不是不願意說等你們有版本吧"},{"start":369.224,"end":386.436,"text":"那因為可是我是在說當你身為一個政務官下鄉去宣講的時候你要講正確的觀念啊比如你連省是中央還是地方你都搞不清楚嘛你身為一個中華民國的主計長連中華民國憲法的明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚嘛"},{"start":387.156,"end":412.583,"text":"妳說我有沒有說錯啊我現在是在談業務的部分對對對 沒有啦妳要宣講 妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛但是妳要給百姓正確的觀念嘛是 謝謝不過妳連中華民國憲法都不了解妳還是依照中華民國憲法宣示的主計長啊那我再請教妳所以我請說 您宣講的時候準備材料的時候我寧願喔 站在我的立場以我對您的尊敬我寧願相信妳是被誤導啦我真的是寧願這樣相信啊"},{"start":414.403,"end":437.738,"text":"好 那請教現在那個我們以前一直有提到一個什麼就是地方的這個自籌款跟那個中央的這種就在補助的時候一些款項比例就像財力分級的自籌款的比例 對吧有分一級 二級 三級 四級 五級每一級有不同的規定比如說台北市第一級 連江第五級那自籌款比例會不一樣 沒錯吧"},{"start":439.715,"end":440.737,"text":"對 因為財源改變請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%"},{"start":445.816,"end":475.06,"text":"哪一個等級這個部分目前沒有現在正在研議當中沒有現在沒有嘛對不對沒有嘛齁那為什麼金門縣政府收到這個有部會的這個公文說這個補助款下去地方請地方自籌50%這個依法有據嗎我們整個目前正在檢討當中對你在檢討還沒有下公文嘛對不對還沒有你還在檢討但是有部會喔已經提出這樣的公文給地方政府喔說下去你們的這個自籌款要準備50%喔這個是依法有據的公文嗎"},{"start":476.758,"end":497.564,"text":"還是在恐嚇地方的公文啊沒有嘛 還沒有這樣規定出來對不對我們主計總署是沒有下這個公文對 我不是說你主計總署我知道 我相信主計總署會依法辦事雖然你沒有熟讀那個憲法不了解這個也被誤導 好不好我就認為你被誤導我在地方聽到這個齁我們基本原來第三級嘛要負擔三成啦 約三成啦"},{"start":499.344,"end":521.551,"text":"現在有部會要求到第五層有要求到五層請你 確實沒有這件事情對不對確實也沒有這個要求對不對目前是我們沒有做這樣的要求你們自己沒有 你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做沒有沒有嘛 如果真的沒有要對外澄清不然請你要詢問給各個部會啊他們怎麼可以不依法行政啊現在中央單位都可以亂套喔"},{"start":523.007,"end":540.737,"text":"想要發文說五成就五成,想要給地方說你七成就七成,可以這樣子嗎?補助都是要依法行政啊院長在院會裡面有說明說補助款的部分先行凍結50%我說的是自籌款的部分嘛所有東西要依法行政嘛"},{"start":543.839,"end":563.814,"text":"我說的不是現在這個 我說的是比如說你有個計畫上來嘛 對不對你本來是7比3嘛 你現在竟然要求人家50嘛這是不對的嘛 因為你們還沒有修 你們不能這樣做吧你們是不是要依法行政我們沒有這樣子修我不是說你啦 你沒有問題 我不是說主計是你們既然沒有修 其他各部會 你應該發文給各個部會啊"},{"start":566.626,"end":590.728,"text":"因為你們每個部會都有主計人員啊如果有的部會沒這樣做這樣他是不是違法不是因為現在是院長是說先凍結我知道你說的是那個那是因為114年度被刪減的情形要做調停我知道你說的是什麼我說但是我們財化法還沒有實施喔對財化法還沒有實施喔這是另外一件事對不對這兩件事嘛所以我現在說的是自籌款的部分嘛我是可以請你跟各個部會通令啊"},{"start":592.057,"end":605.595,"text":"才化如果以後你要改成說要比例可能要調整你們會考慮那當然你們後面應該依法做嘛現在還沒有以前你們部應該這樣做是不是要通令你要請你的主計人員在各個部會的啊問他各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情這是違法欸"},{"start":607.036,"end":631.677,"text":"難道可以一個部長我隨便舉例隨便隨便某某部長就是說我比較喜歡某個縣市我就要求他這個只要自籌20%我最討厭這個縣市他就要加到70%不可以嘛政府有法令對不對所以你是不是要通令我要求啦通令請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政嘛現在有財力分級嘛對吧是不是可以這樣做"},{"start":633.683,"end":640.202,"text":"這個部分因為是行政院規範的不是我所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚"},{"start":643.255,"end":666.453,"text":"其他部會違法你們裡面主計的人不用追究嗎那我要求一件事就好了好不好你請幫我了解給我資料各個部會因為你們都有主計的人有哪些部會做了這樣的事情違法要求地方給比較多超過原來他財力分級的部分一個月給我各個部會的資料你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎你去查你去查給我"},{"start":667.674,"end":680.423,"text":"妳知道我意思嗎因為比如說金門本來是三級啊妳查金門的就好了本來是三級七比三結果妳去問看有沒有哪個部位 妳幫我問有哪個部位給這樣子一個月給我一個月給妳報告給我們蔡委員好 謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢 請妳等一下找我一下"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時21分）謝謝主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長，我個人一向很尊敬您。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我也是尊敬您。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。我覺得你身為一位獨立自主的女性，我內心非常的敬重。但是我前兩天看到新聞說你有上了一個宣講的場合，對吧？參加一個大罷免的活動，有吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我不是參加大罷免活動，我是在宣講政策。"],["陳委員玉珍：是宣講喔？我看你一上臺就拿著稿開始唸，你唸的那句話應該是人家寫給你的嘛？照稿讀啊！我心裡就覺得很難過，覺得好像是人家拿一個東西叫你唸，前面那一段說你是怎樣、是怎樣，我聽了心裡很感慨啦，因為到底你是去宣講還是去亂講？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我主要是在講財劃法修正後的困境啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：你身為主計長，我對我們的行政官員一向都很尊重。這些行政官員，尤其是政務官，應該要保持一定的高度，在我來看，當到國家部會首長都是非常高的位置，而且是讓人家敬重的。所以你要去宣講政策，當然行政院要求去宣講政策的，是你的職責所在，但宣講的內容也應該照……我們來看一下你說了什麼。你去參加以前，你知道這是民進黨在做全臺大罷免的造勢場合嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為他們說這是我們政策宣講的場合。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為這個是很適合出現的嗎？對我來講，各地主計官都是很中立的角色。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，原則上主計大部分都是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你覺得你適合參加嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是政務官……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你不知道它是罷免的場合就對了？他們在那邊就講罷免，還有人上去演啊、講罷免啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：重點是宣導政策。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為你是去宣導政策，不是去講大罷免這個事？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，我一向也沒有這樣子。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有這樣的想法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以身為主計長，你連這種基本的判斷能力也沒有就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是沒有，而是認為我不是這樣子……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我們來看一下你現場提供的資料正不正確，你說是宣講。這是三立的報導，這是你在「人民是頭家」政策宣講會的內容，分成精省前跟精省後，這是財劃法的歲入劃分情形。精省前，直轄市和縣市是28.9%，臺灣省政府是11%，中央政府是60.1%；精省後，直轄市和縣市是24.6%，這是您提供的數字，省政府是11%，中央政府是64.4%。這是你做的表，沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問你，你做這個表的意思是，精省前跟精省後，分別是71.1%跟75.4%，所以是中央只有增加4%的意思嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我的意思是，這個部分必須考量原來臺灣省政府的業務部分當初中央是有承接的，雖然收入有承接，但是支出同樣有承接，所以這個支出的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是講收入，我先討論收入的部分，我知道支出當然也有承接。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你做這個表，把這個畫起來，左邊是71.1%，右邊是75.4%，意思是中央只增加了百分之四點多的收入嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，等於說地方減少了百分之四點多的收入。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是精省後，地方只有減少百分之四點多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在你這個表格裡，省政府是屬於中央，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為省政府的業務後來劃歸到中央去了。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，我們說的是左邊精省前，在你的表格裡頭，省政府算中央，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：是嘛？好。按照中華民國憲法第一百零八條規範，省政府是屬於中央還是地方？你身為中華民國的主計長，中華民國憲法第一百零八條規定，中央是中央，地方業務包括省政府、縣市政府，所以我覺得你這個表格是在意圖誤導民眾。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我是針對整個歲入財源來說明清楚……"],["陳委員玉珍：你用這個表格……我知道你把那個弄得很清楚，但你把它弄成71.1%，好像是只有增加4%，然後地方減少那麼少，地方好像只減少4%，但事實上就不是這樣子！你這個括號好像說精省前後中央只增加不到5%，然後你把精省前的省也算成中央，這個是在欺騙百姓啊！因為你是行政官員，既然你當初宣誓的時候是按著中華民國憲法宣誓，那就要遵守憲法，所以在向百姓宣導政策時，你必須要合憲合法。現在旁邊的幕僚馬上幫我翻中華民國憲法第一百零八條，省算是中央還地方？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為精省以後，它的業務是移到中央來辦理，所以我現在……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，但錢也是移過去，所以地方的錢也變少了，沒錯嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是我在講的是省政府移過來的部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為財劃法我是主審的，我非常了解，你要說中央的事情變多，雖然錢變多，但事情也變多，現在如果財劃法要這樣的劃，我們也必須要把一些事權下放，這個我都同意，也都尊重……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我在這裡也一直在講，內政部可以提出哪些事權要下放的法律修改啊！交通部、經濟部、各個部會覺得哪些部會有些事情，既然財劃法把錢分給地方了，應該讓地方多做一點，那就把事權劃出來啊！我請各個部會提出相關的修法，這個是各個部會應該提的，但他們沒做，對不對？他們必須這樣做嘛！你們主計總處跟財政部也應該提出你們的版本，是你們一直不願意提出版本，我們苦等再等、一等再等，從6月份等到9月份，再從9月份等到12月份，都沒有提出來，我們就只好修法，我們不是不願意等你們有版本。我是在說，你身為一個政務官，當你下鄉去宣講的時候，你要講正確的觀念啊！你連省是中央還是地方都搞不清楚了，你身為中華民國的主計長，你連中華民國憲法明白規定的中央跟地方的權限都沒有弄清楚，你說我有沒有說錯啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我現在是在談業務的部分，對這個部分如果有誤解的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有、沒有，如果你要宣講，你要給百姓正確的觀念嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們將來再修正，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是你要給百姓正確的觀念嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然你連中華民國憲法都不了解，你還是依照中華民國憲法宣誓的主計長！我再請教你，所以我請你宣講的時候、準備材料的時候，站在我的立場，以我對你的尊敬，我寧願相信你是被誤導，我真的是寧願這樣相信。","再請教，我們以前一直有提到地方自籌款跟中央補助款的比例，就是縣市依財力分級表負擔自籌比例，對吧？有分一級、二級、三級、四級、五級，每一級有不同的規定，比如說，臺北市是第一級、連江縣是第五級，自籌款比例會不一樣，沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為整個財源改變……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯嘛！好，請問哪個等級是地方要自籌50%？哪一個等級？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分目前沒有，現在正在研議當中。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在沒有，對不對？沒有嘛！那為什麼金門縣政府會收到部會的公文說，補助款下去，請地方自籌50%？這個於法有據嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們目前整個正在檢討當中。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你在檢討，還沒有下公文，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是有部會已經提給地方政府這樣的公文，表示他們的自籌款要準備50%，這個是依法有據的公文嗎？還是在恐嚇地方的公文？還沒有這樣規定出來，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們主計總處沒有下這個公文。"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是說你主計總處，我相信主計總處會依法辦事，雖然你沒有熟讀憲法，不了解，然後我認為你被誤導了。但我在地方聽到了，我們金門原來是在第三級，要負擔約三成，現在有部會要求要到五成，就你所知，確實沒有這件事情，對不對？確實沒有這個要求，對不對？就是你們主計的部分。"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前我們沒有做這樣的要求。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們沒有，但你有沒有要求其他部會這樣做？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果真的沒有，要對外澄清，不然請你行文給各個部會，他們怎麼可以不依法行政？現在中央單位都可以這樣亂套喔！想要發文給地方說自籌五成就五成；想要給地方自籌七成就七成，可以這樣子嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是院長……"],["陳委員玉珍：都要依法行政啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是院長在院會裡面有說明，補助款的部分先行凍結50%。"],["陳委員玉珍：我說的是自籌款的部分，所有東西都要依法行政。"],["陳主計長淑姿：補助款先凍結50%，是有做這樣的……"],["陳委員玉珍：我說的不是現在，我說的是，比如說你有個計畫上來，本來比例是七比三，現在竟然要求人家50%，這是不對的，因為你們還沒有修，所以你們不能這樣做，你們是不是要依法行政？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有這樣子修。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有問題，我不是說主計總處，而且既然你們沒有修，就應該發文給各個部會，因為你們每個部會都有主計人員，如果有的部會這樣做，則它是不是違法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在院長是說先凍結，因為114年度被刪減的情形要做了解。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你說的是什麼，但是我們財劃法還沒有實施。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這是另外一件事。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是兩件事嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在說的是自籌款的部分，是不是可以請你通令各個部會，基於財劃法，你說以後比例可能要調整，這個你們會考慮，當然你們後面應該依法去做，但現在還沒有做以前，你們不應該這樣！所以是不是要通令，請你在各個部會的主計人員，問他們各個部會有沒有做這樣違法的事情？這是違法耶！我隨便舉個例，某某部長說：我比較喜歡某個縣市，我就要求它只要自籌20%；我最討厭這個縣市，就要加比例到70%，不可以這樣嘛！政府有法令，對不對？所以我要求你們通令，請各個單位要按照現在的法令行政，現在有財力分級，對吧？是不是可以這樣做呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分因為是行政院規範的，不是我，所以這個部分我們也可以向行政院來說明清楚。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是其他部會違法，你們裡面的主計人員不用追究嗎？好，我要求一件事就好了，請幫我了解，並給我資料，因為你們在各個部會都有主計人員，所以有哪些部會做了這樣的事情？就是違法要求地方自籌的比例比較多，超過原來財力分級的部分，一個月內提供給我資料。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎？"],["主席：一個月內給出報告，好不好？"],["陳委員玉珍：請你去查給我，你知道我的意思嗎？你查金門的就好了，金門本來是三級、比例是七比三，你幫我問有哪個部會給這樣的要求。"],["陳主計長淑姿：會了解一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個月內給報告。"],["主席：好，一個月內給財政委員會一個報告，謝謝陳委員的質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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我跟你講細節2023年7月再次噴發硫化氫的濃度高達90ppm知不知道濃化氫法定的標準是多少知道嗎10ppm超過了9倍"},{"start":207.338,"end":227.674,"text":"超過了九倍這是2023年發生的事情2023年沒有處理繼續放任在那邊胡搞瞎搞到2024年年底的時候又再度發生搞到現在還沒有整個處理完畢來 請教一下什麼時候可以處理完"},{"start":229.793,"end":251.589,"text":"我們是不是請地方中心整理一下然後跟委員報告因為這個案是地方中心在執行可以 需要多久我們請地方中心大概一個禮拜內先跟委員這邊做一個說明不用啦 不用說明就書面回覆再給你們一個禮拜的時間因為那邊的居民還有很多旅客大家都受夠了"},{"start":256.124,"end":279.804,"text":"那個主席站起來了3月7號決定要封警回復原狀這個是3月11號12號現場沒有工作人員繼續放在那邊那你現在跟我講說是現在進行是正在做嗎一個禮拜之內順便回復可以嗎可以儘速把它處理完喔好謝謝好一個禮拜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好！"],["黃委員國昌：部長好！時間的關係，直接切入主題。我們要發展地熱，經濟部之前有委託公司在馬槽地區，就是陽明山國家公園管理處辦地質的鑽探，去年年底的時候，有跟社會報告，地熱成果豐碩，馬槽地熱探勘井也有去現勘。但我要跟部長說的是最近一段時間我接到反映，在陽明山那邊，不管是居民還是旅客，他們一直反映，部長，你看一下照片，這些照片都是當地的居民或者是遊客看不下去所提供的，12月16號的時候就發生井噴噪音的污染，12月17號持續的井噴引發噪音。我把時間軸拉到現在，最近一次去看的時候，這個井噴的現場還是沒有處理，從去年12月到現在3月了，整整三個多月，這件事情部長有沒有掌握？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我不是那麼清楚，我可不可以請能源署署長來跟您說明？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，請。"],["李代理署長君禮：這口井是我們地礦中心做的實驗井，那它造成這樣的……"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題是從12月到3月都沒處理，現在是要幹嘛？"],["李代理署長君禮：他們現在已經先把這個井封掉了，後續地礦中心會再跟廠商來做處理……"],["黃委員國昌：要怎麼處理？"],["李代理署長君禮：先把這個井封掉……"],["黃委員國昌：現在井封了嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你確定嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候封的？"],["李代理署長君禮：現在就在封。"],["黃委員國昌：現在進行式嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會封完？"],["李代理署長君禮：我再跟地礦中心聯絡一下，看技術問題什麼時候……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在跟經濟部講，要探勘地熱這件事情大家都不反對，但施工施成這個樣子，對當地的居民、對旅客都造成相當大的負面衝擊，這件事情不是去年才發生，2023年4月的時候是不是就有發生過一次？是吧？"],["李代理署長君禮：是的，它……"],["黃委員國昌：我資料都調出來了，你們2023年4月的時候就放任他在那邊亂搞，沒有依照計畫執行，也沒有依照計畫通報，到2024年又發生。2023年只有發生過一次嗎？署長你知不知道？"],["李代理署長君禮：這個細節是不是請……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我跟你講細節，2023年7月再次噴發，硫化氫的濃度高達90ppm，知不知道硫化氫的法定標準是多少？知道嗎？10ppm！超過了九倍，這是2023年發生的事情。2023年沒有處理，繼續放任在那邊胡搞瞎搞，到2024年年底的時候又再度發生，搞到現在還沒有整個處理完畢。請教一下，什麼時候可以處理完？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們是不是請地礦中心整理一下，然後跟委員報告？因為這個案子是由地礦中心在執行。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，需要多久？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們請地礦中心在一個禮拜內先跟委員說明，然後看……"],["黃委員國昌：不用說明，就書面回復，再給你們一個禮拜的時間，因為那邊的居民還有很多旅客大家都受夠了。3月7號決定要封井回復原狀，這張照片是3月11號和12號拍的，現場沒有工作人員，繼續放在那邊，而你現在跟我說是現在進行式，正在做嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：是，它……"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內書面回復，可以嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：儘速把它處理完。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請於一個禮拜之內回復質詢委員及本會。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那有請台電董事長 謝謝"},{"start":15.558,"end":32.548,"text":"是委員長我想問一下二屋戰爭造成能源價格上漲世界其他國家到底都如何應對是不是跟台灣一樣也有政府補貼的部分可不可以請您回答告訴我目前世界各國的趨勢謝謝我據我所了解德國日本法國"},{"start":33.468,"end":47.16,"text":"的補助金額都超過台幣五千億是那這個數字是去年跟前年也就是說它是近幾年可參考很重要的數字嗎是好那如果是這樣聽起來補充報告就是不只補貼其實他們也漲價"},{"start":49.802,"end":70.749,"text":"又漲價又補貼那他們的補貼竟然聽起來其實比台灣高很多是的那聽起來呢那我問一下這些補貼電價或者是漲電價的國家是不是也都使用核電核電的占比比我們還高嗎日本跟法國確實都使用核電那法國的核電比例非常高"},{"start":72.061,"end":86.948,"text":"所以看起來這跟很多人在那邊喊說是錯誤的能源政策有關我認為聽起來沒有關係而是這整個能源價格上漲的問題看起來是全世界的所有國家在追求經濟發展兼顧民生福利的時候大家共同的難題我可以下這個結論嗎"},{"start":88.615,"end":103.949,"text":"那個能源價格上漲會造成通膨通膨以後國家的公共支出會更大那其實他們是先漲價通膨以後政府才補貼這個其實造成的惡性循環其實後果是更嚴重跟台灣台灣狀況是台電"},{"start":107.056,"end":107.096,"text":"好 聽到"},{"start":122.537,"end":140.057,"text":"剛剛說承擔政策台電我來跟董事長分享一個我目前在服務金門跟連江線那這兩個線我想長期董事長一定清楚他們的發電成本都比較高那也因為發電成本高所以長期以來台電都給予非常大的優惠價格給予相關的撥補跟補助可不可以說一下這個現況"},{"start":141.633,"end":165.563,"text":"跟委員報告啊就因為機組的關係所以他們每一度電帶平均成本都超過10塊錢那委員這個簡報上面已經清楚的呈現就是這兩個離島大概一年一年要補貼30幾億但是我現在身為要服務離島的委員我很擔心不管是陳雪生委員或是陳玉珍委員他們藍白一起砍掉這個相關的預算然後目前又拒絕任何的可能性我想問一下我們離島居民怎麼辦"},{"start":168.393,"end":186.458,"text":"你也沒辦法報告委員我們這樣講台電還有一個很基本的任務就是即使財務困難我們也要充分供電這個充分供電並且確保合理的電價讓離島的居民在享受這個便利發電同時跟台灣本島的使用電價是一樣的不然說白了對不對是的"},{"start":188.939,"end":199.431,"text":"好 所以相關政策困難 我想後續我們再來討論也希望大院支持我們的補貼預算我希望我的藍白同事們支持啦好 謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":699,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時15分）謝謝主席，有請台電董事長，謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：委員早！"],["陳委員培瑜：董事長早安！我想問一下，俄烏戰爭造成能源價格上漲，世界其他國家到底都如何應對，是不是跟臺灣一樣，也有政府補貼的部分？可不可以請您回答，告訴我目前世界各國的趨勢？謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：據我所了解，德國、日本、法國的補助金額都超過臺幣5,000億。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，那這個數字是去年與前年，也就是它是近幾年可參考很重要的數字嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果是這樣，聽起來……"],["曾董事長文生：還要跟委員補充報告，就是不只補貼，其實他們也漲價……"],["陳委員培瑜：又漲價……"],["曾董事長文生：又漲價、又補貼。"],["陳委員培瑜：又補貼，他們的補貼金額聽起來其實比臺灣高很多。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我問一下，這些補貼電價或者是漲電價的國家是不是也都使用核電、核電的占比比我們還高嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：日本和法國確實都使用核電，且法國的核電比例非常高。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以很多人在那邊喊這跟錯誤的能源政策有關，我認為聽起來沒有關係，而是這整個能源價格上漲的問題看起來是全世界所有國家在追求經濟發展兼顧民生福利的時候共同的難題，我可以下這個結論嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：能源價格上漲會造成通膨，通膨以後，國家的公共支出會更大，其實他們是先漲價，通膨以後，政府才補貼，這個造成的惡性循環其實後果是更嚴重；臺灣的狀況是台電沒有漲價，通膨的問題相對和緩，國家的支出也比較少，我們有了歲計賸餘，拿這個歲計賸餘來補貼原來承擔政策的台電，我覺得這個是一個正向循環。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，聽到您剛剛說承擔政策的台電，我來跟董事長分享一個，我目前在服務金門及連江縣，董事長一定清楚，這兩個縣長期發電成本都比較高，也因為發電成本高，所以長期以來台電都給予非常大的優惠價格，給予相關的撥補及補助，可不可以說一下這個現況？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，就因為機組的關係，所以他們每一度電大概平均成本都超過10塊錢，委員這個簡報上面已經清楚的呈現，這兩個離島大概一年要補貼三十幾億。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但是我現在身為要服務離島的委員，我很擔心，不管是陳雪生委員或是陳玉珍委員，他們藍白一起砍掉這個相關的預算，目前又拒絕任何的可能性，我想問一下，我們離島的居民怎麼辦？你也沒辦法？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我們這樣講，台電還有一個很基本的任務，就是即使財務困難，我們也要充分供電……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，充分供電，並且確保合理的電價，讓離島的居民在享受便利發電的同時，跟臺灣本島的使用電價是一樣的，不然不公平，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以相關的政策困難後續我們再來討論……"],["曾董事長文生：也希望大院支持我們的補貼預算。"],["陳委員培瑜：我希望我的藍白同事們支持啦！好，謝謝董事長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","下一位請林德福委員，林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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部長好 外委還有三分鐘 我們把握時間了這過去台電提到說 今天修電源法 我們要確認一下過去本來想要說把這個發電 輸配電跟售電拆成三個國營公司我想確認一下 到目前為止過去本來說要延到6到9年後 2026年之前來把它完成但是此時此刻 這個計畫還會繼續進行嗎還是會全部都回歸到我們台電一間公司就好了"},{"start":41.132,"end":67.626,"text":"報告委員我們希望修為原來的這個綜合電業就是按照現行就好了嘛不用再切成三家公司了嘛我是要跟部長確認這個是因為我想切成三家公司啊我這個對很多的這個台電的基層員工的士氣會一定程度的打擊啦所以我們還是希望這個如果部長這樣講的話我想朝野應該是會一定的共識啦這部分我想會有共識啦那我想電業法的修正我想進度會稍微快一點謝謝委員"},{"start":68.126,"end":86.657,"text":"好 部長那再來就請教一下部長在上禮拜總質詢的時候部長你回應我一件事情你說這個我們現在推動很多的綠電是因為我們希望我們企業在海外發展的時候有比較好的這個績效跟成本嘛然後我想問一下這個現在綠電的這個成本你希望說是由企業來承擔"},{"start":88.078,"end":115.605,"text":"一般民眾用的比較少上禮拜是這樣講的我不知道我們有理解錯部長的意思我們的這個電基本上是多元來發電那綠電基本上是這樣就是說我們要符合2050年零碳的這樣的一個全球的共識但是綠電這一個命題其實是歐洲的國家他們的一個歐盟的一個規範所以他們都在推動綠電所以我們今天台灣製造業"},{"start":118.773,"end":133.797,"text":"賣的東西是全球都有啦那如果他到這個比較符合這個歐盟歐洲國家的規範的話他們都要求要有綠電2030年開始要有百分之百綠電那所以我們必須要供這樣的綠電給這個輸出到歐盟的國家"},{"start":137.338,"end":149.385,"text":"如果說今天是這個零碳的這個可能是其他的電器需求部長 因為我時間不夠我直接問直接一點啦因為在台電現行的規準裡面有很大的一個部分當然是綠電的這個採購嘛"},{"start":152.256,"end":174.064,"text":"那我今天要講的問題是說我們假設今天先聽今天這禮拜又要審所謂定價審議委會那後續有體力法院的補貼等等的這個所謂補貼一千一兩千億裡面的補貼有沒有包含說因為採購綠電的外購綠電的價格的虧損所以需要這樣的補貼不是 報告委員我們在補貼的部分是在補在過去2019年的這個COVID-19因為烏鶴戰爭的影響而導致於我們買的這個發電的這個材料成本上漲"},{"start":181.926,"end":200.75,"text":"我們一共在這三四年期間大概漲了六千億我們因為動漲所以我們成本上漲六千億雖然謝謝大院來補助我們大概加起來三千億不過我們還是差三千億所以綠電的部分不是在這裡面嗎不是在這裡面好 部長謝謝好 謝謝委員好 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在場委員 先進列席的政治決斷事項委員會長 公眾夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請經濟部國部長還有能源署的李代理署長還有台電的曾董事長台電曾董事長這一次換個題目啊好 部長好委員好署長好 董事長好我今天的題目呢是提升離散型光電區匱限覆蓋率受電是受於地面發展虛擬電廠好 我們今天討論的主題是電業法電業法大家都講了 都支持第六條 當時把受電"},{"start":37.174,"end":65.476,"text":"供電跟發電都把它拆開來但是呢我們看到台灣是能源進口國所以我們想要透過市場競爭提高效率讓我們的發電端有效率讓我們的受電端能夠加強管理是不是這樣子 部長那現在這個目標都達成了嘛好 所以我們支持電網修改好 往下看但是現在台電持續要加強的電網韌性像我們台電的輸配電網雖然是自然壟斷但是相對呢我覺得後來找到相對是高的"},{"start":65.956,"end":91.759,"text":"因為部長你也去過這個國家你常常舉這個例子我去過菲律賓參觀他的電力公司他的綠電潛力充沛成本不到10塊錢但是人民終端的售價高達8塊錢原因出在哪裡電網的效率差所以現在台電呢我們政府編列於投入呢5645億強化電網韌性除了設備更新之外要透過智慧化還有一個電網韌性災後的附電能力部長是不是支持是不是這樣子"},{"start":92.279,"end":109.978,"text":"是的報告委員這個上面所寫10年內投入5645億已經修改為4年了4年了很好我們繼續支持往下看但是另外一個發電端我們看看現在台灣大概陸上型的光電的大面積的大規模的大概都已經開發差不多了這當中"},{"start":111.039,"end":140.04,"text":"匱限跟生壓站161KV的廠商要自建台電有這樣的要求但是接下來會遇到什麼董事長請你過來小面積的跟離散型的我舉例檳榔廢原轉做成綠電董事長總經理比較清楚了其實在靠近鄉親聚落未來的光電路上看到只剩這些地區但這些地區缺乏22跟11KV的請問總經理未來台電在匱限的分布上這個部分的覆蓋率可不可以提升"},{"start":141.756,"end":157.327,"text":"這個部分就跟委員這張圖上面一樣大面積的部分就走上面 對小面積的話就是台電會去處理我們會努力在這方面所以部長剛剛講五千多有四年內喔我們希望部長只是台電這個部分的部分強化可不可以 部長可以喔 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虛擬電廠可以做部長可不可以責任台電趕快進行相關的研發"},{"start":298.786,"end":320.863,"text":"是 我們來努力好 所以最後兩個東西就請你承諾請研議離散型光電在鄉村居住地區的潰線覆蓋率提升的方案三個月內提出一個報告 可以嗎可以好 另外呢 也去進行法規的調適讓台電的受電室設於地面 以利於發展虛擬電廠也是這樣 三個月提出一個書面報告 可以嗎好的好 謝謝謝謝主席好 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各位委員 有請部長請部長您好 部長好這個大家還是非常關心這個電價這個調漲的部分那上次也跟部長提到了這個我們電費漲價"},{"start":36.145,"end":39.529,"text":"這個除了在20152015的4月10月還有2016的4月曾經降過降價 電費降價一直到2022年開始連續上漲了連續上漲連續上漲"},{"start":58.303,"end":63.547,"text":"雖然政府以人民的納稅錢分別在2023年對台電增資1500億,2023年特別預算補貼500億,2024年再增資1000億,總共3000億,但是台電調帳還是調帳,"},{"start":80.954,"end":105.044,"text":"從2022年這個2023、2024到今年的2024的10月今年就2027年就兩次所以這樣的一個情形這個就是上次我一再的來講如果我們看這個台電公司近10年這個"},{"start":108.477,"end":128.189,"text":"雲宇的部分從103年都賺錢到110年總共加起來就是2332億這個賺的錢如果再加上政府人民的納稅錢以了撥補給台電的3000億總共就有5300多億然後從111年度"},{"start":139.047,"end":165.386,"text":"开始严重的亏损这里面有提到有提到俄乌战争大家不能否认俄乌战争是其中之一而事实上很大的因素很大的因素就是能源政策上次跟部长提到这个总统府气候变迁委员会副召集人"},{"start":166.323,"end":194.099,"text":"合授董事長童子賢在這個教育文化委員會特別提到核電可以年省N個千億這個N個千億其實是如果按照他的計算是15個千億按照童子賢的計算最多可以到15個千億所以這是一個"},{"start":195.782,"end":223.145,"text":"政策也有很大的因素所以這個部分如果我一再講可能我不知道我一直還沒有你們也沒有提供數字給我就是說因為我們的政策好 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台中有很多工具機的廠商導入AI智慧製造那這個對他們來講未來在這個製造的這個領域的競爭力是提升非常多的第二個他們可能缺乏訂單所以我們現在經濟部的國貿署會針對幾個市場"},{"start":145.434,"end":168.609,"text":"主要的市場我們會用台灣一個印象然後去那個地方來做推廣希望能夠讓台灣的工具機產業可以結合國家的力量我們國貿署過去大概就是只有讓外貿協會在市場上面去做一些展覽"},{"start":169.409,"end":183.962,"text":"但展覽以後大概就很少去follow 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那有請部長請進部 郭部長跟台電董事長台電曾董事長好"},{"start":24.794,"end":48.206,"text":"從早上我們在討論的主要今天我們電業法等一下的修法有討論到整個台電它整個完整性那以及未來台電要面對的一個課題那當然大家也都有討論到電價這件事情當然這個電價就是因為我們之前要用一千億要來撥補台電那這個看來這個期待落空所以台電馬上要面對的就是"},{"start":49.807,"end":58.016,"text":"這個有這個不足嘛有短掃可能要用其他的方式要不然要不早說我覺得事實上還是有一些財政手段"},{"start":59.324,"end":79.451,"text":"也可以來解決台電的問題因為如果說行政院這一次就是要用1000億來面對台電的這個虧損那我想要把一些台電的一些負債的數據給部長你參考一下部長你可以看台電從105年的時候他每年的利息支出大概是180億"},{"start":80.931,"end":99.015,"text":"那你一直看喔 到了111年的時候 它的利息支出 每年利息支出正式到了200億到了114年的時候 每年的利息支出 在我最右下的這一個 320億所以你可以想像 每一年台電就要面對320億利息沒有還本"},{"start":103.806,"end":127.422,"text":"光歷史就這樣所以我要跟部長建議的就是說我們還是有財政手段尤其部長你本身就是一個企業家你知道說這個企業面對虧損的時候財政手段也是一個方式那自然要面對財政手段的時候我們再把它去看台電目前跟銀行舉借的未償還的金額類總共有5997這個97億元"},{"start":134.006,"end":155.29,"text":"這是鏘銀行的鏘銀行的這個結構我再把它細分起來你看台銀就佔了2000億是佔了37%土地銀行是佔了430億輸出入銀行佔了230億其他在於飯工股又是有包括民營的部分和庫佔的比較多1100億所以我現在要補充說關鍵就在財政可以解決這個問題"},{"start":159.707,"end":165.818,"text":"如果我們跟財政部大家坐下來講用財政手段難道不能用國庫舉債借給台電嗎"},{"start":171.468,"end":197.318,"text":"報告委員台電來跟國庫借利息低先消米這些利息部長是這個命題我想委員在上一個會期就已經有指正過了那我們也充分的在考量所以我們經濟部可能會就我們現在這些舉債來發永續債所以我們如果發永續債我相信我們大概可以"},{"start":198.058,"end":217.841,"text":"大概可以少掉這個40%的這個利息可以少40%嘛40%就很多了是40%的霸華業一年就少了一百多億所以謝謝委員當時的這個提醒然後你們再仔細去看因為我們的台灣銀行跟土地銀行跟輸出入銀行這三家銀行是百分之百的關股"},{"start":218.652,"end":238.405,"text":"所以既然他百分之百關股 我們可以由這三家銀行來主導跟其他的民營銀行來跟他談判 請他們把利息降低如果不降低利息的話 我們就把他還掉還掉的話 他們會很難過的喔 這些民營銀行會很痛苦哇 利息不好啊 銀水的水又好 要降利息來降"},{"start":241.176,"end":256.951,"text":"我們如果發永續債可以降到40%好啊 我期待是說因為有這些財政手段財政手段是可以解決的尤其事實上我們也知道說預算法85條營業基金的預算的主要內容"},{"start":257.992,"end":278.666,"text":"有其中一個包括長期債務之舉借及償還長期債務這應該就是保留你說的永續債既然說如果我們這個長期債務我們由公股銀行來主導的話利息可以談得很低在利息最低的一個情況之下把民營銀行相對利息高的把它沖掉"},{"start":279.907,"end":299.852,"text":"台電可以用財政手段來解決現在的這個狀況因為我們現在要面對的就是因為在野黨這個一千億的撥補不會讓台電倒三天嘛我們現在就不希望說這個電價去升上去下跌一定會沒進動這是我們執政黨的原罪啊可是我們還是得面對台電的這個狀況"},{"start":301.152,"end":303.174,"text":"所以我是覺得這個問題部長你應該帶回去然後跟行政院好好的談我們現在已經跟國化會就這個命題你所指導的這個命題已經深入的在檢討"},{"start":316.189,"end":338.265,"text":"我希望說這個要把他持續下去是我就很精準的五分鐘謝謝委員五分鐘就完成我的質詢但是我覺得這個真的可以用財政手段對我們幫助非常大部長我相信這是你的專業因為你來自民間你知道民間遇到周轉不靈的時候總是要有一些辦法嘛好不好是保定我們這個災民加油好不好謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝崔議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["蔡委員易餘：還要請台電董事長。"],["主席：請台電曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好！"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，有關電業法的修法，早上我們有討論到整個台電的完整性，以及未來台電要面對的課題，當然，大家也都有討論到電價這件事情。電價部分就是因為我們之前要用1,000億來撥補台電，看來這個期待落空，所以台電馬上要面對的就是它的不足和短少可能要用其他的方式來處理。不過我要跟部長說，我覺得事實上還是有一些財政手段可以來解決台電的問題，因為如果行政院這次就是要用1,000億來面對台電的虧損，那我想要把台電一些負債的數據提供給部長參考一下。","台電從105年起，每年的利息支出大概是180億，到了111年，它每年的利息支出正式進入200億，到了114年的時候，它每年的利息支出已經是320億，所以你可以想像，每一年台電就要面對320億的利息，沒有還本，光是利息就這樣，嚇死人了！所以我要跟部長建議的就是，我們還是有財政手段啊！尤其部長本身就是一個企業家，你知道當企業面對虧損的時候，財政手段也是一個解決方式。談到財政手段，我們再看台電目前跟銀行舉借的未償還金額總共有5,997億元，這是欠銀行的，這部分的結構我再把它細分一下，其中臺銀就占了2,000億（約37%），土地銀行占430億，輸出入銀行占230億，其他是泛公股和民營銀行的部分，合庫占得比較多，是1,100億，所以我要跟部長說，關鍵就在財政手段可以解決這個問題耶！如果我們跟財政部大家一起坐下來談，用財政手段，難道不能用國庫舉債借給台電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["蔡委員易餘：讓台電來跟國庫借，利息低，先消弭這些利息，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個命題委員上個會期就已經指正過了，我們也充分在考量，所以經濟部可能會就我們現在這些舉債來發永續債，如果我們發永續債，相信大概可以少掉40%的利息。"],["蔡委員易餘：可以少40%？40%就很多了，一年就少了一百多億耶！"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以謝謝委員當時的提醒。"],["蔡委員易餘：然後你們再仔細去看，因為臺灣銀行、土地銀行和輸出入銀行這3家銀行是百分之百的官股，既然它是百分之百官股，我們可以由這3家銀行來主導跟其他民營銀行談判，請他們把利息降低，如果不降低利息的話，我們就把它還掉，還掉的話，這些民營銀行會很痛苦喔，因為利息沒有了，所以他們立刻就會同意降低利息。真的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們如果發永續債的話，可以降到40%。"],["蔡委員易餘：好啊！我的期待是，因為有這些財政手段，而財政手段是可以解決的，尤其事實上我們也知道根據預算法第八十五條，營業基金預算之主要內容包括長期債務之舉借及償還，這應該就是部長所說的永續債。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果這個長期債務由公股銀行來主導的話，利息可以談得很低，在利息最低的情況之下，把民營銀行相對利息高的沖掉，台電可以用財政手段來解決現在這個狀況，因為我們現在要面對的就是這1,000億的撥補，在野黨不要幫忙台電嘛！我們現在就不希望電價漲上去，百姓一定會罵執政黨，這是我們執政黨的原罪啊！可是我們還是得面對台電的這個狀況。所以我是覺得這個問題，部長應該帶回去，然後跟行政院好好的談，請他們把財政部找來。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在已經跟國發會就委員所指導的這個命題深入在檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我希望要把它持續下去。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我就很精準的5分鐘……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：5分鐘就完成我的質詢，但是我覺得這個真的可以用財政手段……"],["郭部長智輝：對我們的幫助非常大。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我相信這是你的專業，因為你來自民間，你知道民間遇到周轉不靈的時候，總是要有一些辦法嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們再一起加油，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。足堪楷模，令人敬佩！部長請回座。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們請這個陳主委長好 陳主委長請"},{"start":18.294,"end":34.201,"text":"委員長好 主委長您在這個2月26號我們主席總署發布國內的經濟預測表示因為立法院刪減預算所以會這個削弱成長動能因而下修今年的經濟成長率是3.14%教育測數減少0.15%"},{"start":41.984,"end":58.858,"text":"這樣真的是如此嗎 局長來我讓你看那個我們這個PVT局長你可以看到幾乎所有的單位在院會被巡視都表示今年度的預算都有增加我們看國防部增加400多億"},{"start":59.659,"end":70.083,"text":"教育部增加300億內政部增加400億交通部增加389億農業部增加83.2億衛福部增加306億國科會增加132億科爾會增加也增加了4億主席長你說這個增加這麼多啊"},{"start":81.486,"end":98.951,"text":"總預算數的總額高達兩兆九千兩百四十八億也比一百一十三年度多了一千三百六十八億整個中央政府的總預算比去年度增加了百分之二點五六你說對不對"},{"start":101.044,"end":120.858,"text":"這個數據對不對報告委員因為增加的項目是增加2,806億那主要是增加公共建設對健保的一個補助還有一些調薪這些等等但是三檢的部分是三檢集中在部分的機關還有業務費所以這樣才會有執行困難就是這個我剛才提的數據都對嘛"},{"start":125.541,"end":132.59,"text":"所以說您對外界說是因為立法院刪減預算所以下修今年的經濟成長率"},{"start":135.682,"end":157.127,"text":"這個部分我也跟委員在說明他主要有幾點的一個因素影響第一個他前面的基數就已經很高了他又提高因為本來我們預估是比較少再又提高所以他今年我們這增減會減少那第二個預算也有一點點有影響雖然影響沒有但是也有影響預算也有影響就是以前面基期高"},{"start":159.187,"end":160.368,"text":"因為你這樣的說法跟央行總裁的講法完全背道而馳"},{"start":179.74,"end":194.924,"text":"央行他在這個下修今年的成長率他的專業評估是因為川普這個上任對經濟充滿不確定政策充滿不確定性川普將科對等關稅恐將衝擊出口"},{"start":198.905,"end":228.035,"text":"台積電擴大赴美設廠恐衝擊國內的投資所以才下修經濟成長率跟你講的什麼總預算什麼三減會影響所謂的這個經濟的成長率完全背道而馳啊你這個說法不是很外行嗎主委長你身為我們中華民國的這個整個預算的一個這個主計啊你講這樣的下修成長率跟預算算數有關"},{"start":229.917,"end":242.446,"text":"是有關的但是我要跟委員報告因為川普的這個因素目前一直還不確定中所以這個因素一直還沒有放到評估裡面去這個才是最大的因素跟你講說什麼跟這個預算總預算的三減有關"},{"start":260.538,"end":285.96,"text":"聽起來很外行你講這個話另外有關今天我們討論預算法的修正那主席總書在3月7號你對外指出說收支剩餘應優先用於償債或留工未來重大的正式支出應考量保留政策彈性普發現金不宜常態性來辦理你這個說法我今天告訴你你根本是在凸顯行政院"},{"start":287.021,"end":295.027,"text":"這幾年撥補台電的不適宜啦局長你知道說這個過去啊我們編列多少次的預算補助台電嗎"},{"start":296.983,"end":318.937,"text":"目前補助3000億總額是3000億 總共幾次 我告訴你三次所以我們知道台電到今年2月 它已經連續三年的大虧損累計的虧損高達4229億主要的原因就是依照童子賢先生講的"},{"start":320.678,"end":330.806,"text":"就是因為錯誤的能源政策以及整個能源採購與經營的效益不彰而下個月台電又要再次調漲電價預計四月份我們的民生電價要漲11%"},{"start":337.11,"end":360.78,"text":"產業的電價漲5%這將衝擊到1450萬戶產業民生的影響所有的電價全調這也是我們四年來第五次的漲價因此照這樣的延續的補助台電是否也可以認定是常態性的辦理一直補助台電這是常態性的辦理嗎"},{"start":362.629,"end":383.601,"text":"其實不是常態性的辦理但是主要是因為他對於民生的電價他沒有漲所以這個部分呢就高達有2800億左右那這個部分我們主要是彌補他這個不叫常態性的辦理喔每年在家虧損就一直補助他用政府編列預算來補助他是但是你說這不是常態性的"},{"start":384.161,"end":406.811,"text":"以國外的一個例子來看他調整的一個調整的電價調得更高所以這樣子的話民生更沒辦法承受所以這個部分我們在調節的部分你現在是說補助的問題現在一直補助他每年他有虧損我們政府就要編列預算來補助他像你今年你要編一千億的公務預算"},{"start":407.651,"end":429.556,"text":"都是用政府編列預算來補助所以這樣的補助的方式未來只要台電有虧損我們就要補助這不是叫常態性嗎不是這個部分主要是他有配合行政院針對政策性的讓他民生電價不要漲價這個部分來做彌補所以這個部分才叫做才補貼這個部分這樣啦 這個組長我問你對於台電的一個撥補這個屬不屬於我們的常債"},{"start":436.827,"end":464.703,"text":"這不是常債這不是常債嘛對啊所以不是常債那我們現在講我們超增稅收要來這個還稅於民你說台電可以用我們上一次也有用我們超增的稅收來補助他嗎所以你說這不是這個常態嗎那請問你那我們這一次把我們這個要求說把我們超增的稅收來還稅於民這個是常態嗎"},{"start":466.089,"end":475.876,"text":"因為他如果變在余政法裡面他就會變成常態所以你要把超徵的稅收我們把要求還稅於民這是OK的啊"},{"start":476.844,"end":495.862,"text":"這跟補助台電的道理是一樣的啊因為一般我們有剩餘是透過在政策上一個表達所以我們會先進到一個累積剩餘的一個累積然後再編列預算來做政策性的一個我看你的報告說今年扣除所有的債務還本我們大概還有1581億"},{"start":500.766,"end":507.297,"text":"所以這1581億難道不可以來還稅漁民嗎這你完全扣除所有的債務了"},{"start":509.124,"end":534.497,"text":"因為裡面我們如果說要把它放在115年我們也或者是追加我們也必須要等到7月審計部審定以後我們才可以來做這個我們了解但是你的政策方向要很明確告訴我們說這個是可以的而不是說這個不能常態這樣不能常態化這個就講的就讓我們覺得很奇怪實際上這是可行的嘛"},{"start":535.217,"end":555.744,"text":"當初發放現金重點是經濟成長不好然後第二個是因為疫後疫後我們為了要刺激經濟讓它能夠有護輸所以我們才會做一個這樣因為卓院長在3月6號的院會備詢的時候他表示會往在野黨所提撲發現金的方向走"},{"start":556.644,"end":575.101,"text":"但是今天主席總書的報告 包含您剛才的一個詢答 您是對此不表認同啊所以主席長 我們主席總書是反對卓院長 他所這個詢答的時候 他所表示的方向嗎我們是對一定在法條裡面 我們是不支持是這樣的一個意思"},{"start":575.581,"end":593.966,"text":"是說你如果支持了以後這個部分定在法條以後將來就是變成他沒有彈性那沒有彈性的話執行的時候就會比較針對其他的一個政務的影響就會蠻大另外我想剩一點點時間問你您的報告說稅收時增超過預算數是屬估計誤差請問你是這個所謂的估計誤差是怎樣子的一個估計誤差"},{"start":604.429,"end":624.007,"text":"這個部分可能是財政部要說明的部分這個部分我們不屬於妳的對 因為稅務的估計是屬於財政部的業務那主計總數啊財政部 所以我問妳財政部每年都這樣一直超增所謂的講說是估計誤差那過去主計總數都沒有發覺這樣離譜的誤差的稅收預估狀況嗎"},{"start":630.373,"end":643.561,"text":"我們114年就把他這個修正了所以我們114年的一個稅入也大幅的增加這樣財政部這樣一直說超徵有沒有這個114年錄音估計會有這麼大的誤差 總共10年喔10年來都超徵啊這樣是不是破壞財政距離這樣會不會破壞財政距離啊"},{"start":651.745,"end":674.76,"text":"這本身這個114年預算的稅入我們就已經有做修正了這個部分所以你這樣忽視財政部這樣離譜的預算編列能力與誤差主計總部是否有你你是否有失職我們今年已經有經營請他修正了所以今年的一個稅入又有大幅的一個修正謝謝好以上好謝謝好謝謝那個"},{"start":681.141,"end":686.488,"text":"林思明委員對 執行好 下一位請陳立正委員執行 請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時9分）謝謝主席，我們請陳主計長。"],["主席：陳主計長請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主計長好。主計長，2月26號主計總處發布國內的經濟預測，表示因為立法院刪減預算，所以會削弱成長動能，因而下修今年的經濟成長率至3.14%，較預測數減少0.15%。但真的是如此嗎？主計長，我讓你看我的PPT，你可以看到幾乎所有的單位在院會備詢時都表示，今年度的預算都有增加，國防部增加四百多億、教育部增加300億、內政部增加400億、交通部增加389億、農業部增加83.24億、衛福部增加306億、國科會增加132億、客委會也增加了4億。主計長，增加了這麼多，總預算數的總額高達2兆9,248億，比113年度多了1,368億，整個中央政府的總預算比去年度增加了2.56%，這個數據對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，是增加2,806億，增加的項目主要是增加公共建設、對健保的補助，還有一些調薪等等……"],["林委員思銘：所以我剛剛講的數據都對嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是刪減的部分是集中刪減在部分機關，還有業務費，這樣才會有執行困難。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，你回答我的問題，我剛才提的數據都對嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以您對外界說，是因為立法院刪減預算，所以下修今年的經濟成長率，主計長，這有關係嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我也跟委員再說明，這主要有幾點因素影響：第一個，它前面的基數就已經很高了，因為本來我們的預估是比較少，又再提高，所以今年會減少；第二個，預算也有一點點影響，雖然影響沒有那麼多，但是也有影響……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，你現在講一點點……"],["陳主計長淑姿：預算也有影響，就是前面基期高……"],["林委員思銘：編列的預算比去年高那麼多會影響今年的……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們本來預估的是預算成長，但由於被刪減，投入施作的量少了，經濟成長就會減少。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我告訴你，因為你這樣的說法跟央行總裁的講法完全背道而馳！央行下修今年的成長率，它的專業評估是因為川普上任，對政策充滿不確定性，川普將課對等關稅，恐將衝擊出口；台積電擴大赴美設廠，恐衝擊國內的投資，所以才下修經濟成長率。跟你講的什麼總預算刪減會影響經濟的成長率完全背道而馳，你這個說法不是很外行嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，你身為我們中華民國整個預算的主計，你講下修成長率跟刪除預算有關，我想這樣的講法很不專業啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是有關的，但是我要跟委員報告，因為川普的因素目前一直還不確定中，所以一直沒有放到評估裡面去。"],["林委員思銘：這個才是最大的因素嘛！跟你說的跟總預算的刪減有關……"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要是前年度的基數高。第二個，刪減總預算使我們整個投資減少也會有影響。"],["林委員思銘：好啦！這個問題我想我們就討論到這裡，我是覺得主計總處未來在對外發表意見的時候真的要很審慎，否則你講這個話聽起來很外行。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：另外，有關今天我們討論預算法的修正，主計總處在3月7號對外指出，收支賸餘應優先用於償債或留供未來重大政事支出，應考量保留政策彈性，普發現金不宜常態性辦理。我今天告訴你，你這個說法根本是在凸顯行政院這幾年撥補台電的不適宜啦！主計長，你知道過去我們編列多少次的預算補助台電嗎？補助的金額是多少你知不知道？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前補助3,000億。"],["林委員思銘：總額是3,000億，總共3次。台電到今年2月已經連續三年大虧損，累計虧損高達4,229億。依照童子賢先生講的，主要的原因就是因為錯誤的能源政策，以及整個能源採購與經營的效益不彰。而下個月台電又要再次調漲電價，預計4月份民生電價要漲11%、產業電價要漲5%，這將衝擊到1,450萬戶，產業、民生所有的電價全調，這也是四年來第五次的漲價。因此，照這樣連續的補助台電，是否也可以認定是常態性的辦理？一直補助台電，這是常態性的辦理嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實不是常態性的辦理，主要是因為民生的電價沒有漲，這個部分就高達兩千八百億左右，這個部分我們主要是彌補它……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，這個不叫常態性的辦理？每年只要虧損就一直補助它，用政府編列預算來補助它，你說這不是常態性辦理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是以國外的例子來看，他們的電價調整得更高，這樣的話民生更沒辦法承受，所以我們在調節的部分……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我不是跟你講調整電價，現在是在說補助的問題。現在一直補助它，每年它有虧損，政府就要編列預算來補助它，像今年你要編1,000億的公務預算，都是用政府編列預算來補助，這樣的補助的方式，未來只要台電有虧損我們就要補助，這不是叫常態性嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，主要是它有配合行政院，政策性的讓民生電價不要漲價，我們對這個部分來做彌補，所以才補貼這個部分。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我問你，對於台電的撥補屬不屬於償債？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這不是償債。"],["林委員思銘：這不是償債嘛！我們現在講超徵稅收要還稅於民，我們上一次也有用超徵稅收來補助台電！你說這不是常態，那請問你，這一次我們要求把超徵的稅收還稅於民，這個是常態嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它如果寫在預算法裡面，它就會變成常態。"],["林委員思銘：這也不是常態啊！所以我們要求把超徵的稅收還稅於民，這是OK的，這跟補助台電的道理是一樣的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為一般我們有賸餘是透過在政策上表達，所以我們會先進到累積賸餘的累積，然後再編列預算來做政策性的……"],["林委員思銘：我看你的報告說，今年扣除所有的債務還本大概還有1,581億，所以這1,581億難道不可以用來還稅於民嗎？你完全扣除所有的債務了啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們如果要把它放在115年或者是追加，我們也必須要等到7月審計部審定以後才可以來做，第二個……"],["林委員思銘：這個我們了解，但是你的政策方向要很明確告訴我們說這個是可以的，而不是說這個不能常態化，這樣講就讓我們覺得很奇怪，實際上這是可行的嘛！還稅於民嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初發放現金的重點是經濟成長不好，第二個是因為疫後，我們為了要刺激經濟，讓經濟復甦，所以我們才會這樣做。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我時間也不多了，我再問你，因為卓院長在3月6號院會備詢的時候表示，會往在野黨所提普發現金的方向走。但是今天主計總處的報告，包含你剛才的詢答都提到，你對此不表認同。所以主計長，主計總處是反對卓院長詢答時所表示的方向嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是對於訂在法條裡面不支持，是這樣的意思，因為你如果支持讓這個部分訂在法條以後，將來會變成沒有彈性；沒有彈性的話，執行的時候，對其他政務的影響就會滿大的。"],["林委員思銘：另外，剩一點點時間，我問你。你的報告說，稅收實徵數超過預算數係屬估計誤差。請問所謂的估計誤差是指怎樣的估計誤差？你稅收會年年超徵……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分可能是財政部要說明的，我們……"],["林委員思銘：不屬於你的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為稅收的估計是屬於財政部的業務，是不是請財政部來說明？"],["林委員思銘：所以我問你，財政部每年都這樣超徵，都是講估計誤差，過去主計總處都沒有發覺這樣離譜的誤差、這樣的稅收預估狀況嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們114年就把它修正了！所以我們114年的歲入也大幅的增加……"],["林委員思銘：財政部這樣一直稅收超徵，估計有這麼大的誤差，總共10年，10年來都超徵，這樣是不是破壞財政紀律？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有10年都超徵。"],["林委員思銘：這樣會不會破壞財政紀律？"],["陳主計長淑姿：本身114年預算的歲入，我們就已經有針對這個部分做修正了。"],["林委員思銘：所以你忽視財政部這樣離譜的預算編列能力與誤差，主計總處是否有失職？每年都這樣！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們今年已經請他修正了，所以今年的歲入有大幅的修正，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員質詢。","下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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財政部的阮政次以及我們的主計長主計長先休息一下喝水等一下第二個問題再輪到您主計長先休息一下喝個水"},{"start":17.997,"end":32.725,"text":"上個會期我們在立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案有共識的法案就是打詐專法但是打詐專法的案件跟金額我關注到從打詐儀表板裡面從3月16號到3月22號"},{"start":36.027,"end":38.449,"text":"我們的詐騙的案件數仍舊有3917件那這個被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億這是光光一個禮拜左右的時間在3月16號到3月22號"},{"start":51.218,"end":78.299,"text":"在1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億雖然我有關注到一個數字比較去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億現在可能透過我們修法的努力也好或者是我們的基層員警還有大家接受到有可能被詐騙的訊息現在每天平均可能只有2億"},{"start":79.5,"end":104.021,"text":"但是這次每天全國被詐騙兩億這個數字每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢我常常在基層跑的時候有一些民眾跟我講說我都不敢跟我家人講但我被詐騙了多少錢有沒有機會追得回來其實有時候我知道困難度非常高但他們非常痛苦"},{"start":104.361,"end":115.792,"text":"也就是說我們要感受到人民的痛苦這件事情我覺得在打造這件事情我們似乎政府還應該做得更多我說到這邊你同意嗎"},{"start":117.438,"end":140.538,"text":"跟委員報告事實上打詐這一部分我們對公股也好或者供應市也好我們這個是我們督導的重點對但是我們似乎可以做的更多我們不是似乎我們應該要做的更多如果說1月份還有95億2月份時間比較短有60億平均每天我們還有2億被詐騙"},{"start":142.728,"end":170.016,"text":"我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具把打詐這件事情做得更多我相信你應該可以認同我的話但是這次我也關注到一件事情金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款這裁罰金額高達兩千兩百萬罰的對象是全台灣民眾最信任的我們的台灣銀行 台銀"},{"start":172.779,"end":177.448,"text":"我想這次你應該知道什麼事情台銀的行員自主詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢"},{"start":182.116,"end":202.587,"text":"而且根據台銀內部我們也有洗錢防治法的示警機制但是我們最後是查到就是查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證我們自己政府官員公股銀行做出這樣的事情"},{"start":203.567,"end":214.596,"text":"我們有相關的市井機制但是卻發生這樣的事情這件事情要不要為全國要不要為台英這件事情跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":215.85,"end":242.177,"text":"跟委員包括這個事情發生這發生在台銀的台銀是公股銀行它應該是所有公股銀行的表率在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面台銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位我應該這麼說譬如說在美國美國銀行是大家可以最信任的單位在台灣銀行是公股銀行的表率是"},{"start":243.178,"end":259.254,"text":"照你說應該做模範,但是卻發生這樣的事情,你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉?我跟委員報告,發生這種事情我們真的是非常遺憾因為他這個內部的相關的同仁除了遺憾之外,應不應該道歉?"},{"start":262.932,"end":287.768,"text":"我是覺得是這樣子因為這兩個同仁我們現在都已經提起公訴而且都已經免職了那麼相關的督導的他們當然有司法這次他們當然有司法的問題但是如果身為台灣銀行我們公股銀行第一表率我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話我們監理的機制內控的機制都這麼糟糕我們如何管理其他的公股銀行甚至是民間的銀行"},{"start":289.706,"end":307.737,"text":"所以你到現在還不敢說出我們應該對民眾道歉我們未來會加強管理你只有遺憾兩個字我心裡會覺得非常難過因為每一塊錢我剛剛已經講了都是人民的血汗錢所以你不能道歉這件事情我個人是覺得我更覺得遺憾我也非常的詫異那我就要請問就是說除了檢訟司法之外就是對於這一個個案"},{"start":319.204,"end":335.943,"text":"但是我們財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作把加強後續的內控機制做得更好譬如說我要請問鄭次我們現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任我們有沒有打詐主管"},{"start":336.704,"end":349.456,"text":"打詐的主管基本上他是按照他的權責就是說有沒有打詐主管這件事你就直接回答有做沒有好有好有那他是專任還是簽任"},{"start":351.953,"end":366.364,"text":"這個他不可能是專任的那我就要說我的看法想法我不知道你為什麼說不能專任但是對於無論洗錢防治法也好或者是專任的打擊詐騙"},{"start":369.987,"end":398.789,"text":"監控的控管這個是需要高度的關注兼任這件事情我有時間我再去做我沒時間我要把我的本份業務做本份業務沒做好我會拖累到整個銀行的整個系統SOP 標準SOP所以就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制所以是不是才會有台銀這個事情發生我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈但是我今天在這邊質詢我就透過我的質詢提醒你"},{"start":400.031,"end":406.571,"text":"專任跟兼任在去做打詐主管這件事情對於銀行的內控機制的管理"},{"start":408.576,"end":432.287,"text":"是有程度上的差異能不能做得更好就是有程度上的差異所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做是在人為看你有沒有決心當台灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管找出一個打詐主管是專任的我相信未來整個內控的機制管理監理都一定會做得更好我跟委員報告就是基本上這個案子未發生基本上是發生"},{"start":433.207,"end":460.781,"text":"到第一道防線我們在這個因為我今天時間不多因為我還要問主計長但是我只提醒你怎麼樣做得更好我只提醒你工具跟方法但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做兼任的能不能做得更好或者是專任的才可以把事情做好我提醒你把它因為台灣銀行發生這個事情全國都在看如果台灣銀行內控沒做好你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行"},{"start":461.561,"end":464.623,"text":"主席,臺灣的通膨已經連續三年超過二我們通常跟央行主管跟您之前討論,超過二就開始人民對於通膨的感受度是非常明顯的"},{"start":488.055,"end":514.706,"text":"但是台灣已經過去連續三年通膨已經達到警戒線甚至都超過二那我們現在碰到幾個當然非常大的挑戰國際的問題關稅的問題匯率的操作這都是匯之數好那我看到你二月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94我要請問主計長這個1.94有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅還有包括我們店家的漲幅"},{"start":516.781,"end":545.888,"text":"然後民生用電也會漲到11%工業用電可能漲到6%當然這都還不一定但是這個1.94有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量沒有這目前是沒有沒有的好那如果今年我不知道最後會漲多少了那我們通膨會有沒有可能再上修如果4月份公佈調漲之後你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本我們最後通膨會上修大概多少"},{"start":547.009,"end":565.639,"text":"如果有店會有調整的話那這個部分我們大概會做一些上修啦我當然講你一定會上修因為那個數字是很輕你當然要計算但是主計長你應該會有幾個版本你會去建議跟行政院長 卓院長溝通說欸 調漲5% 6% 8% 11%大概排骨飯未來會多少會漲到多少 芋頭飯會多少早餐一個三明治會漲多少你應該有跟他講吧"},{"start":575.024,"end":591.092,"text":"我們主計處不是加減數字我們應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官看嘛不是因為這個部分我們主要是我們的評估人會把評估結果送給院長你有送就對了你有提醒他們就對了有送好幾個版本有送幾個版本但是我們沒有針對台電這個我們還沒有去把還沒有對"},{"start":596.435,"end":608.923,"text":"主席講這個事情很大條我的意思是說你應該去告訴他漲5%那整個通膨是多少7%是多少 11%你們應該有這個版本才對如果到現在還沒算這個版本非常訝異台電要不要漲現在還沒有確定"},{"start":613.686,"end":639.667,"text":"我們必須等到它漲了確定之後那漲了就來不及啦 漲了就來不及仔細講 我再提醒一件事情我再用最後30秒因為我去年問你說我們現在受雇員工的經常性薪資已經是連續三年的負成長好不容易今年調整變成正成長變0.58%所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話那"},{"start":641.549,"end":656.197,"text":"我們今年是不是經常性的薪資 實質薪資都能夠維持正成長或甚至會變回負責這是去年啦 但今年到底狀況你今年還能維持正成長 好 謝謝好 謝謝李雯的質詢 我們休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":655,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時47分）感謝召委，我不會延長時間，是不是請財政部阮政次和主計長？"],["主席：請阮政次及主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：阮政次，上個會期我們立法院不分黨派修了一個非常重要的法案、有共識的法案，就是打詐專法，但是打詐專法的案件跟金額，根據打詐儀錶板顯示，從3月16號到3月22號，我們的詐騙案件數仍舊有3,917件，被詐騙的金額仍舊有18億，這是光一個禮拜左右的時間。1月份我們被詐騙的金額是95億，在2月份我們被詐騙的金額高達60億。我還有關注到一個數字，去年我們每日被詐騙的金額是4.8億，現在可能透過我們修法的努力，或者是基層員警的努力，還有大家接收到防詐騙的訊息，現在每天平均只有2億，但是政次，全國每天被詐騙2億，每一塊錢都是人民的血汗錢。我常常在基層跑的時候，有一些民眾跟我講說，他都不敢跟家人講他被詐騙了多少錢，有沒有機會追得回來，其實我知道困難度非常高，但他們非常痛苦，我們要感受到人民的痛苦，我覺得在打詐這件事情上，政府似乎還應該做得更多，我說到這邊，你同意嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，事實上打詐這一部分，泛公股或國營事業是我們督導的重點……"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們似乎可以做得更多，不是似乎，而是我們應該要做得更多，如果說1月份還有95億，2月份時間比較短有60億，平均每天還有2億被詐騙，我覺得政府應該要做的是更多的，我們應該想辦法看我們有什麼樣的政策工具，把打詐這件事情做得更多，我相信你應該可以認同我的話。但是，政次，我也關注到一件事情，金管會前一陣子祭出史上最重的罰款，裁罰金額高達2,200萬，罰的對象是全臺灣民眾最信任的我們的臺灣銀行（臺銀），我想政次您應該知道什麼事情？"],["阮次長清華：是，知道。"],["李委員彥秀：臺銀的行員自組詐騙集團詐騙民眾的血汗錢，而且臺銀內部也有洗錢防制法的示警機制，但是我們最後查到，查證人員跟主管認為該行員同屬同一個分行就沒有積極查證，我們自己的公股銀行做出這樣的事情，我們有相關的示警機制，但是卻發生這樣的事情。政次，要不要為臺銀這件事情跟全國人民道歉？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，這個事情發生在臺銀的……"],["李委員彥秀：臺銀是公股銀行，它應該是所有公股銀行的表率，在所有不管民間或公股銀行裡面，臺銀應該是人民最可以信任的單位，我應該這麼說。比如說在美國，美國銀行是大家最信任的單位，在臺灣，臺灣銀行是公股銀行的表率，照理說應該做模範，但是卻發生這樣的事情，你認為應不應該為這件事情道歉？"],["阮次長清華：是。我跟委員報告，發生這種事情，我們真的是非常遺憾，非常遺憾，因為它內部相關的同仁……"],["李委員彥秀：除了遺憾之外，應不應該道歉？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得是這樣子，因為這兩個同仁，我們現在都已經提起公訴，而且都已經免職了，相關的督導……"],["李委員彥秀：政次，他們當然有司法的問題，但是臺灣銀行身為我們公股銀行的第一表率，我們的內控機制都這麼糟糕的話，我們的監理機制、內控機制都這麼糟糕，我們如何管理其他的公股銀行，甚至是民間的銀行？"],["阮次長清華：我們希望……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你到現在還不敢說出：我們應該向民眾道歉，我們未來會加強管理。你只有「遺憾」兩個字，我心裡會覺得非常難過。因為每一塊錢，我剛剛已經講了，都是人民的血汗錢……"],["阮次長清華：完全了解，完全了解，所以這一部分我們也……"],["李委員彥秀：所以，你不能道歉這件事情，我個人更是覺得遺憾，我也非常的詫異。我要請問，除了檢送司法之外，對於這個個案，財政部跟金管會未來如何加強合作，讓後續的內控機制做得更好？譬如說，我要請問政次，現在打詐的主管到底是專任還是兼任？我們有沒有打詐的主管？"],["阮次長清華：打詐的主管，基本上是按照他的權責，就是說……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有？有沒有打詐的主管這件事，你就直接回答有或沒有。"],["阮次長清華：有，有打詐主管，主管一定是會有的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，有，那他是專任還是兼任？"],["阮次長清華：他不可能是專任，為什麼？因為他的分行裡面……"],["李委員彥秀：好，我知道，政次，那我就要說我的看法、想法。我不知道你為什麼說不能專任，但是對於無論是洗錢防制法也好，或者是專任的打擊詐騙做內部監控的控管，這個是需要高度的關注。如果是兼任，我有時間再去做，我沒有時間，我要先把我的本分業務做好，本分業務沒有做好，我會拖累到整個銀行系統的標準SOP。是不是就是因為它長期是一個兼任的機制，所以才會有臺銀這個事情發生？","我不知道還有沒有其他的未爆彈，但是我今天在這邊就是透過我的質詢提醒你，專任或兼任做打詐主管這件事，對於銀行內控機制的管理是有程度上的差異，能不能做得更好，這個有程度上的差異，所以你不要跟我講說你沒有辦法做，事在人為，看你有沒有決心。當臺灣銀行自己做了一個專任的打詐主管，找出一個打詐主管是專任的，我相信未來整個內控的管理跟監理機制都一定會做得更好。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，基本上這個案子是發生在第一道防線，我們在銀行業有建立了三道防線……"],["李委員彥秀：政次，我今天時間不多，我還要問主計長。我只是提醒你怎麼樣做得更好，我只是提醒你工具跟方法……"],["阮次長清華：這個部分我們都已經在檢討了。"],["李委員彥秀：但是你要去思考怎麼樣去做，兼任的能不能做得更好，或者是專任的才可以把事情做好？我提醒你，因為臺灣銀行發生這個事情，全國都在看，如果臺灣銀行內控沒做好，你怎麼去要求其他公股銀行甚至是民間銀行？以上，謝謝。時間暫停，我先請主計長。"],["阮次長清華：我們已經要求臺灣銀行一定要落實內稽內控。"],["主席：好，請主計長。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝，請回。","主計長，我們臺灣的通膨已經連續3年超過2%，通常我們跟央行、跟您之前討論，超過2%人民對於通膨的感受度就非常明顯。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是臺灣過去已經連續3年通膨達到警戒線，甚至都超過2%，我們現在碰到幾個非常大的挑戰，國際的問題、關稅的問題、匯率的操作，這都是未知數，我看到你2月份上修的預估通膨是達到1.94%，我要請問主計長，這個1.94%有沒有計算到今年可能面臨的關稅，還有電價的漲幅，包括民生用電也會漲11%、工業用電可能漲6%？當然這都還不一定。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是這個1.94%有沒有把今年水電的漲幅納入考量？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前是沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：好，當然我不知道今年最後會漲多少，通膨有沒有可能再上修？如果4月份公布調漲之後，你目前有沒有計算過幾個版本？最後通膨大概會上修多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果電費有調整的話，這個部分我們大概會做一些上修。"],["李委員彥秀：我當然知道你一定會上修，因為那個數字很清楚，你當然要計算，但是主計長，你應該會有幾個版本建議行政院卓院長，溝通調漲5%、6%、8%或11%時，大概排骨飯會漲到多少、蚵仔麵線會漲到多少、早餐一個三明治會漲到多少，你應該有跟他講吧？主計總處不是只有加減數字，應該也會提供一些政策思考給長官嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為這個部分主要是我們的評估，我們會把評估結果送給院長參考。"],["李委員彥秀：你有送就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：你有提醒他們就對了？有送幾個版本？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是我們還沒有針對台電去把……"],["李委員彥秀：還沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員彥秀：哇！主計長，這個事情很大條欸！我的意思是你應該去告訴他，漲5%整個通膨是多少、7%是多少、11%是多少，你們應該有這個版本才對啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為台電要不要漲……"],["李委員彥秀：如果到現在還沒送這個版本，我非常訝異。"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有確定，我們必須等到它漲了，確定之後……"],["李委員彥秀：漲了就來不及啦！主計長，我再提醒一件事情，我占用最後30秒，因為我去年問你，受僱員工的經常性薪資已經連續3年負成長，好不容易今年調整變成正成長，0.58%，所以如果今年的通膨持續維持新高的話，那我們今年經常性的實質薪資還能夠維持正成長？或者會變成負的？"],["主席：簡要回答就好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，維持正成長。"],["李委員彥秀：這是去年啦，但是今年的狀況到底……"],["陳主計長淑姿：今年還是一樣，維持正成長。"],["李委員彥秀：你今年還能維持正成長，有信心？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝李委員的質詢，我們休息10分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：向委員會報告，下一位請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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主席長 午安 早安 早安先跟主席長致意 也跟你致敬你在上週的花蓮的演講 真的實在是令人感動 非常謝謝"},{"start":32.08,"end":47.831,"text":"我想這個不管算帳還是總預算還是做那個調查的一個統計這些基本功其實都是整個政府運作的一個核心的一個基礎那如果沒有這一些的話其實我們也沒有辦法"},{"start":48.652,"end":71.664,"text":"那個就是付公務人員的薪水也沒有辦法辦各種的一個業務那更不要講說基礎的一個建設其實如果沒有妥定的一個制定就是很好的一個政策其實我們這個國家會陷入在一個困境裡頭所以我想在野檔的二三預算其實大家都苦不堪言"},{"start":72.384,"end":95.014,"text":"那在上個星期五3月21號賴總統已經正式宣布了今年度被在野黨亂山亂動的一個總預算總統就是已經下令了那我們在這裡看到到就是從114年度我們的預算案 法定預算這個是空白 追加預算案也是空白"},{"start":95.894,"end":117.289,"text":"那現在我要請教你就是說從去年開始9月開議以後在野黨就一直在阻礙這個總預算的一個通過其實到了上個月2月19號才終於把這個案子送出來竹記長我想我們現在看到了你的官網裡頭你的法定預算還是空白的就是說"},{"start":119.105,"end":133.953,"text":"是不是因為這一次的三途通過的一個總預算在刪減的一個科目跟金額上面有很多的一個問題所以你沒有辦法把這個華電的預算把它就是很明顯的就是寫上去是不是這樣的一個困難"},{"start":135.097,"end":157.445,"text":"因為現在目前碰到的困難就是說他要我們通案三檢一個636億的這個部分我們會有困難那這個困難我們還是要跟立法院來做一個說明希望立法院能夠支持這個部分看是要怎麼樣來處理能夠進行協商是這樣子所以你提出來了嗎"},{"start":159.23,"end":176.928,"text":"我們目前正在研議當中我們也很快會提出來那另外我們也會針對就是說部分單位它被刪減的很厲害就是刪減到0或者是實際上運作有困難的這個部分水電匯戶不出來這些部分"},{"start":177.348,"end":184.335,"text":"我們先優先的要來申請動之第二預備金所以主席的妳的帳已經對上來了嗎就是被刪減的跟妳自己的帳有沒有對上來了"},{"start":190.475,"end":209.856,"text":"目前就是這個部分我們還是在對上還是有一些的疑議啦這個部分所以我們也會是希望說這個部分將來譬如說我們達成協調以後要用什麼樣數字來刪減或者是說要用什麼數字來做一個宣佈"},{"start":210.696,"end":227.924,"text":"或核對以後把數字再把它列出來這樣所以就是說在野黨胡亂的就是三讀造成審查後說出的一個數額這個有很大的一個爭議那未能易解那就像我們非常清楚就是說照這一次三讀內容的一個"},{"start":228.884,"end":243.935,"text":"計算的話我們他是刪減就是要刪減2076億喔可是主計總署你詳細校對了以後發現需要確確的一個科目刪除的金額其實只要1439億那這兩筆兩筆錢差了636億元那這樣子的話在野黨也沒有非常明確的說他要刪什麼科目"},{"start":254.582,"end":258.671,"text":"反過來要行政院自行調整三減數這個完全會刪了 刪了那怎麼辦咧"},{"start":263.211,"end":289.651,"text":"所以這個部分我們就是刪減有困難那第二個這個刪渡內容這個部分要刪減2076億元的部分是有部分的單位預算他刪減數超過預算數超過7000多萬那所以這個部分就是會比較有問題那這個部分我們會照他就是說他的預算數來刪所以數字跟宣布的部分數字是會有出入那另外一個就是刪636億的部分沒有辦法刪"},{"start":292.273,"end":317.737,"text":"而且等於說如果說要刪了要追加預算也要符合追加預算一個一個所定的一個原則他有事項的一個條件所以這個部分我們也是在努力中好努力中這個要非常的努力因為這個在野黨三這個二三這個預算我們很明確看得出來就是說其實是在阿扁時代的時候有一個就是中"},{"start":318.617,"end":338.508,"text":"總預算的法定預算 稅出跟我們的那個三減數大家看到了一個就是在阿扁時代 這個大概是5.04那就是馬英九時代2012年的時候 他其實是三減的額度非常少 只刪了0.02%"},{"start":340.269,"end":353.759,"text":"那一樣就是說就算同樣都是草小野大啦這個阿扁時代的時候你看喔它刪減的比例最高也是在2002年也不過刪了就是5%那這一次這麼嚴重刪了6.63%啦所以我想這個其實"},{"start":359.824,"end":387.103,"text":"是在破壞了整個中央的一個運作我們看得非常的一個清楚那所有三檢凍結其實集中在特定的一個機關的業務會那我們看到了就是監察院還有不斷單場處理委員會行政院還有總統府甚至我們看到了最離譜的就是一個就是內政部那個國土署它有一個在細指的那個白富的社會住宅"},{"start":389.804,"end":407.909,"text":"這一個規劃叫1.2億,結果把它刪掉,變成超過了它的預算數超刪了多了300萬,這個實在是非常非常的離譜啊甚至就是說在監察院裡頭,在監察院這個被刪了,我覺得這個在野黨"},{"start":412.33,"end":434.738,"text":"他這個其實是在圖利監察院他除了領薪水以外他叫他們什麼事都不要做所以這麼奇怪的一個三預算的一個方式實在是非常的誇張那這個主計長我想在這裡啦我覺得就是說也是要跟你共同的去再做一個探討就是說預算三成這個樣子你會不會擔心"},{"start":438.988,"end":455.013,"text":"我們是盡力來做協調盡力來把問題解決因為像監察院一直跟我們說他水電會付不出來那那個台電公司要求他還要寫還款的一個協議所以這個部分我們也是希望說能夠儘早把問題解決"},{"start":457.154,"end":483.632,"text":"這個是非常嚴重的你看凍結總預算比那個三年前平均增加了九倍這個非常嚴重會影響很多的招標案跟補助案我們看到了就是說在這個最低工資的審議案其實他也受到影響了本來是午夜要辦的人力應用調查可是或許他也會因為就是說這一波的一個那個凍結預算讓主計總處的人力調查"},{"start":487.495,"end":491.101,"text":"那未來行政院有可能就是有什麼比較好的那個救濟的一個措施還是因應的作為嗎"},{"start":503.173,"end":520.878,"text":"是那我們現在就是說針對那個剛剛就是說如果被凍結那個條件的部分我們是希望說能夠先送到立法院來然後跟立法院來進行協調先針對凍結的部分能夠進行解凍那刪減的部分我們是希望說"},{"start":522.018,"end":542.684,"text":"因為他有一部分是三減到零這個部分我們先動二倍金然後跟立法院來報告先動二倍金對報告說請動二倍金來先支援到六月那然後等到我們辦追加減預算這個條件這個部分是不是能夠先協調說大概我三減的如果說我要照他"},{"start":544.083,"end":569.449,"text":"總數來三減希望將來能夠這三減數能夠恢復以上的一個說明好 主席長我想這個總統也把那個在上個禮拜五也一併的這個財劃法也一併的公告了這個財劃法其實這個對掏空中央弱化地方的財政這個我們看得非常清楚他就讓地方政府變成是一個媽寶其實我們看到了就是說"},{"start":570.729,"end":595.281,"text":"最多的一個補助的一個比例是在離島跟那個比例喔是在花東跟離島啦那這一次的修法其實有兩大的一個問題我們都非常地一個清楚了那地方要到錢不一定做對的事其實有時候我們反而覺得就是這個財化法是在陷害地方政府這些縣市長反而就是說"},{"start":597.082,"end":613.352,"text":"會是一個陷阱那如何因應就是越糟糕的一個財化法這一次這個財化法我們看得非常清楚就是重北侵難 非常的惡劣如果要搭配補助款來通盤檢討跟分配"},{"start":614.272,"end":629.957,"text":"那應該是一定要這樣做 必要的話甚至要調整整個補助補助款的一個公式我想在這裡我要替所有的一個農業的一個縣市來講像其實以我們台南來講的話"},{"start":631.477,"end":654.792,"text":"以我們台南來講的話其實我們拿到了150億結果我們的地下鐵就需要的是中央的補助款是256億現在中央告訴我們說他只能補助我們五成而已所以我想這個都是非常嚴重的一個問題那請那個主計長就是說也請你們加油啦請加油謝謝主席好 謝謝賴教委的諮詢"},{"start":659.056,"end":666.705,"text":"我們本來要休息的 不過李英雄已經到了就是你執行完了 我們確定休息好不好請李委員執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時36分）謝謝主席，我們有請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長早安。先跟主計長致意，也跟你致敬，你上週在花蓮的演講，實在令人感動，非常謝謝。不管算帳、籌編總預算還是調查統計，這些基本工都是整個政府運作的核心基礎。如果沒有這一些，我們沒有辦法給付公務人員的薪水，也沒有辦法辦各種業務，更不要講基礎的建設。如果沒有妥善地制定很好的政策，我們的國家就會陷入困境裡頭，所以在野黨的惡刪預算，其實大家都苦不堪言。","在上個星期五3月21號，賴總統已經正式公布今年度被在野黨亂刪亂凍的總預算案，總統令已經公告了。我們在簡報上看得到，114年度我們的預算案，法定預算是空白，追加預算案也是空白。現在我要請教你，從去年9月開議以後，在野黨就一直在阻礙總預算的通過，直到上個月2月19號才終於把這個案子送出來。主計長，我們現在看到主計總處的官網裡面，法定預算還是空白的，是不是因為這一次三讀通過的總預算，在刪減的科目跟金額上面有很多的問題，所以你沒有辦法把法定預算很明確地寫上去，是不是有這樣的困難？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前碰到的困難就是，他要我們通案刪減636億這個部分，我們會有困難，這個困難我們還是要跟立法院說明，希望立法院能夠支持看這個部分要怎麼樣處理，能夠進行協商。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你提出來了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們目前正在研議當中，很快會提出來。另外，我們也會針對部分單位被刪減得很厲害，就是刪減到零或是實際上運作有困難的這個部分，包括水電費付不出來這部分，我們優先要來申請動支第二預備金，因為被刪減的預算不能動二備金……"],["賴委員惠員：所以主計長，你的帳已經對上了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：啊？"],["賴委員惠員：被刪減的跟你自己的帳有沒有對上了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前就是這個部分我們在核對上還是有一些疑義，所以我們也希望這個部分，將來譬如說我們達成協調以後，要用什麼樣的數字來刪減，或者是說要用什麼數字宣布或核對以後，再把數字列出來。"],["賴委員惠員：所以在野黨胡亂的三讀，造成審查後歲出的數額有很大的爭議，未能議決。我們非常清楚的就是，照這次三讀內容計算的話，就是要刪減2,076億，主計總處詳細校對以後，發現確切需要刪除的科目金額只有1,439億，這兩筆錢差了636億元，但在野黨也沒有非常明確的說要刪什麼科目，反過來要行政院自行調整刪減數，這個完全是為刪而刪，怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們就是刪減有困難，第二、這個三讀內容要刪減2,076億元的部分，有部分的單位預算刪減數超過預算數，超過七千多萬，這個部分就會比較有問題。這個部分我們會照預算數來刪，所以數字跟宣布的數字會有出入。另外就是刪636億的部分沒有辦法刪，而且如果刪了要追加預算，也要符合追加預算的四項條件，所以這個部分我們也是在努力中。"],["賴委員惠員：好，這個要非常的努力啦，因為在野黨惡刪預算，其實在阿扁時代，就是總預算的法定歲出預算跟刪減數大概是5.04，馬英九時代2012年的時候，其實刪減的額度非常少，只刪了0.02%，就算同樣是朝小野大，阿扁時代刪減的比例最高是在2002年，也不過刪了5%，這一次這麼嚴重，刪了6.63%，我想其實是破壞了整個中央的運作。我們看得非常清楚，所有刪減、凍結都集中在特定機關的業務費，就是監察院、不當黨產處理委員會、行政院還有總統府，最離譜的就是內政部國土署，有一個在汐止的白匏湖社會住宅，規劃1.2億，結果被刪超過了它的預算數，超刪300萬，這個實在是非常非常離譜。還有就是監察院預算被刪，我覺得在野黨其實是在圖利監察院，讓監察院除了領薪水以外，什麼事都不要做。這麼奇怪的刪預算方式，實在是非常誇張。主計長，我在這裡要跟你共同探討，預算刪成這個樣子，你會不會擔心？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是盡力來協調，盡力來把問題解決，因為像監察院一直跟我們說水電費付不出來，台電公司又要求他們寫還款協議，這個部分我們也是希望能夠儘早解決。"],["賴委員惠員：這是非常嚴重的喔，你看凍結總預算比3年前平均增加了9倍，這個非常嚴重，會影響很多的招標案跟補助案。我們看到最低工資審議案也受到影響，本來主計總處5月要辦的人力運用調查，或許也會因為這一波的凍結預算而難產，也會影響到最低工資的審議。未來行政院有什麼比較好的救濟措施還是因應作為嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們現在就是針對凍結的條件，希望能夠先送到立法院來，跟立法院進行協調，先針對凍結的部分予以解凍。刪減的部分，因為有一部分是刪減到零，這個部分我們先動用二備金，然後跟立法院報告，請動二備金先支援到6月，等到我們辦追加減預算，這個部分是不是能夠先協調，如果要照總數來刪減，希望將來這個刪減數能夠回復，以上說明。"],["賴委員惠員：好，主計長，我想總統在上禮拜五把財劃法也一併公告了，財劃法其實是掏空中央，弱化地方財政，我們看得非常清楚，它就讓地方政府變成一個媽寶，最多的補助比例是在花東跟離島。這一次的修法其實有兩大問題，地方要到錢不一定做對的事，有時候我們反而覺得這個財劃法是在陷害地方政府，對於這些縣市長反而會是一個陷阱。如何因應越修越糟糕的財劃法，這一次修法我們看得非常清楚，就是重北輕南，非常惡劣，一定要搭配補助款來通盤檢討跟分配，甚至要調整整個補助款公式。在這裡我要替所有的農業縣市來講話，以我們臺南來講，我們拿到了150億，但我們的地下鐵需要中央的補助款是256億，現在中央告訴我們只能補助五成而已，我想這都是非常嚴重的問題。主計長，也請你們加油，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委的質詢，我們本來要休息，不過李彥秀委員已經到了，所以等你質詢完畢，我們確定休息。","請李委員彥秀質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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資訊 請好 主席 在場的委員先進列席的正午機關首長官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請主計是陳主計長陳主計長 請主計總處 對不起 主計總處 陳主計長"},{"start":30.114,"end":47.864,"text":"抱歉喔 因為今天沒有請到審計部的主席長主席長好我先跟您請教一下我這個講的是預算依法撥補台電離島虧損競爭市場人才要調整新的結果來 我們看第一張總預算公佈了明年的總預算開始收編了嗎"},{"start":49.389,"end":70.652,"text":"已經在進行了進行投編了嘛就是3月到4月之間嘛是不是我們中程計畫已經目前在進行我們很快的看下去好那麼有關於媒體報導在3月9號本來去年度補貼邊在今年的預算要補貼台電的被刪了嘛是不是總預算被刪了嘛總預算前幾天總統也公佈了嘛"},{"start":71.36,"end":99.671,"text":"那結果台電不得不 電價審議委員會現在調漲電價但是呢 又有一個新聞說3月台電打算追討110億的離島補貼這是什麼東西我們過去的離島用電虧損是不是都台電吸收是 那都是由中央目的事業主管機關裡面來撥補是的 就是離島建設條第4條這是不是法定支出撥補離島供電的營運虧損是法定支出"},{"start":101.156,"end":111.051,"text":"它不是屬於基金應該的支出也不是法定支出那這個條例14條什麼意思是不是強制你要編列預算有沒有 有沒有強制力"},{"start":112.708,"end":132.04,"text":"是而且去年的經濟委員會決議喔建請離島基金研議撥補財政的可行性喔法律也這樣寫了立法院審議預算也這樣說了請問主席總署在籌編明年度預算的時候有沒有想過要怎麼樣依法律的規定編列預算撥補"},{"start":134.626,"end":158.675,"text":"這個部分因為等於是說它還是有虧損啦虧損的部分是台電在吸收啦那這個部分如果說你沒有彌補它的話那它將來就是要要回歸到這我都知道但是我問的是您是主計總處啊是編列預算撥補這六個字編列預算撥補這六個字有沒有人要做誰要做誰該做"},{"start":160.777,"end":171.492,"text":"事實上一般如果不是的話就要由地方政府來吸收我沒有說不是什麼地方政府我就講的就是離島的這個寫在法律嘛離島建設基金14條嘛建設條例14條嘛"},{"start":173.684,"end":195.425,"text":"目的事業主管機關要審核嘛然後呢政府要怎樣要編列預算撥補那編列預算是不是妳的全責之一是嘛所以就提醒妳開始要籌編了不管是經濟部編編在離島建設基金還是行政院主計總署要有想法了嘛是不是這樣是好所以說主計總署支持用基金來還是另編撥補台電"},{"start":197.026,"end":218.215,"text":"因為它不是基金所能夠負擔的一個項目基金現在剩不到10億啊 它要1100億啊對 所以也不符合基金的用途啦所以這個部分我們一般原則上應該都是要透過總預算來做好 那很清楚了嘛要透過總預算如果必要的時候有沒有可能是用最佳減預算還是特別預算你們去評估好不好好 我們現在看"},{"start":222.076,"end":246.696,"text":"來,現在呢,我們都很被問到啊台灣現在跟美國一步一致,一致!因為都把中國視為最大的對抗對象美國視中國不是對手啊,是對抗的對手不是競爭的對手台灣視中國為境外敵對勢力所以呢,美國川普喊話北約要增加他的軍費到GDP百分之五那明年我們國防制度的GDP佔比會不會提高?過去大概2.45會提高嗎?"},{"start":250.168,"end":277.512,"text":"我們原則上是希望要把它提高很好來提高在哪個部分一般來講我們的軍會兩個部分一個是武器採購一個是人員維持往下看所以目前我們看到了國軍缺員嚴重邊線比不足從88掉到了78而且也宣布了4月1號開始總統宣布了軍人海巡有加薪大概調整後可能可以增加到13000到15000而且這裡面我看到的是"},{"start":278.232,"end":284.786,"text":"自願意的加擠調整之後呢基層的增加幅度多於中階的軍官多於將官你認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":287.64,"end":311.514,"text":"還是不評論?因為這個部分是屬於國防部的一個權責但是妳不反對嗎?因為現在目前總統已經有宣布加薪所以我只針對這個加薪的部分好,妳要去籌措預算嗎?好,那這樣會不會增加我們GDP的占比?會嗎?也會好,但是我認為是不夠的往下看其實我們來看一下國軍是需要專業人才的"},{"start":312.728,"end":329.749,"text":"站航管加擠 電針加擠 網路站加擠請問你認為這些專業人才如果是在民間企業的行情因為你們這個主席總書負責統計啊你們有沒有統計過這三類的專業人才在民間的行情怎麼樣多少錢要不要月薪十萬"},{"start":332.138,"end":352.954,"text":"你們要去統計一下 了解一下我認為都超過了但是我們看一看現在這些人才我們看下一頁治安人才警戒也在搶啊結果呢警方的治安人才被搶走了啊兩百萬的年薪你認為目前我們公共人員的制度雖然你不是人種有可能年薪兩百萬嗎"},{"start":355.23,"end":375.193,"text":"很難嘛 那怎麼辦 怎麼求財 怎麼留財我們來看一下美軍怎麼做美軍是什麼 它是用PR89 PR90什麼意思 現在就業市場上最高的那10%就是我的薪資水準你覺得我們公務人員的待遇可以這樣定嗎"},{"start":376.923,"end":390.849,"text":"不是定 我們過去過程是這樣子都是跟內部來比低階的人 初階的人要比中階的低中階的比高階的低新進人員一定比資深人員來的薪水低是不是這樣 美軍不跟你吃這一套啦"},{"start":391.633,"end":410.345,"text":"他是現在就業市場如果這個人現在市場行情是十萬我就用十萬挖管他是不是之前剛新進就算他進來之後他的關節比別人低他的資金比別人低前面的人可能是七萬元他要挖他進來是十萬元你覺得公務部門國軍這些必要的部門有沒有可能用這種方式"},{"start":412.194,"end":427.343,"text":"因為這個部分是人種他根據整個一個制度所以你土地的種族不會反對這種結構的調整吧我們原則上是尊重他整個的一個結構看他要怎麼去做調整是的 我問過人種所以人種這個結構在調整但是調整之後"},{"start":430.523,"end":447.578,"text":"他的總金額會提高所以這是主計總數要準備好的我舉一個例來講啦現在如果一個大學新進的新生是PR90你覺得校長說不行啊怎麼今年的新生PR90以前現在四年級大四的當年進來的時候還PR80會不會這樣想不會嘛"},{"start":449.48,"end":476.645,"text":"大學在招攬人才的時候認為我現在的薪生進來是PR越來越高比他早年的高這才是我們政府求財留財的方法往下看所以我們短期續薪它是以薪續職這個讓你參考這個問問人事總書再往下看所以接下來看到同樣的是要求財要留財我們也問過了財政部次長在這裡那天我問過了部長金控前十四大只有三家是所謂的犯公股"},{"start":477.265,"end":495.464,"text":"那如果是台土輸,台灣銀行、土地銀行跟輸出銀行是輸輸輸啊請問財政部提出的方案要提高待遇來爭取留財、徵財,你們支不支持?這個部分已經送到院裡頭裡面在討論了,這個部分那你們支持嗎?你們去籌措經費"},{"start":499.747,"end":528.451,"text":"是人總也在研議中我問過人總了沒有研議他已經支持了我當面問過人總所以今天我一個一個問當了財政部的面前我問主席長知不支持行政院如果要做這個你知不支持人黨支持囉你可以判因為這要看行政院的裁定啦坦白說對這是行政院的裁定但是主席長不反對嘛來我問一下來沈記長總是要請到你沈記長您知不支持您反不反對"},{"start":530.233,"end":534.275,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":557.304,"end":578.312,"text":"明年度的預算籌編怎麼樣撥補台點的離島虧損怎麼樣納入預算籌編可以嗎可以什麼時候可以讓我們委員會或本席知道因為我們原則上進入預算的籌編大部分都是四月底嘛四月大概四到六月我們就開始進行籌編四月底前讓本席或本委員會知道可以嗎"},{"start":579.294,"end":599.429,"text":"4月底是有點太早,因為大概差不多6月底左右6月底都編好了6月底要定案6月就會明朗了但是台電的電價審議委員會4月底就會定案了這樣我們是不是要忍受我們希望說台電如果這個預算能夠撥補我們電價或許漲幅不會那麼嚴重"},{"start":602.071,"end":622.723,"text":"所以可不可以你們可以提早釋出讓台電心裡有個底他這一億一千億有可能會落袋他才在電疫審議的時候能納入考量可以嗎你不讓我知道要讓台電知道啊我們一直都是支持台電要因為他這是補充你是支持啊但是你要變成你的法定職權來展示啊"},{"start":623.443,"end":647.644,"text":"他不能堪忍你口頭的支持來審議電價我都知道現在我的意思說電價審議不能只是看今天的影片你的口頭支持他必須看到行政院有依法定去進行預算的籌編可不可以好還有兩個主席站起來另外希望你們會同國防部跟人總這當然你們是比較輔助的角色對於我們如果調整薪資結構"},{"start":649.105,"end":677.035,"text":"仿照美軍的PR-90的概念打破過去傳統資深優於資淺高階優於低階其實在我們這次國軍的待遇的調升已經看到了將官調得少衛官基層軍官調得多這就是一個好的方向去研議調整這樣的結構配合他們去做可以嗎我們尊重人種制度的一個調整還有國防部還有你也支持我們國營金融機構的員工待遇改善方案是不是"},{"start":677.515,"end":681.703,"text":"原則是 好 謝謝我提案提了好幾個月因為當年這個限制是國民黨立委限制的學長我們都支持啊 亂講一堆文字"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時24分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請主計總處陳主計長。"],["主席：陳主計長，請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：抱歉喔，今天沒有請審計部審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計長好。主計長，我今天要講的是「預算依法撥補台電離島虧損，競爭市場人才調整薪資結構」，今年的總預算公布了，請問明年的總預算開始籌編了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經在進行了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：進行籌編了嘛，就是3月到4月之間要訂定預算籌編原則、編制辦法嘛，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，我們中程計畫目前已經在進行了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3月9號媒體報導，本來去年度編列在今年預算中要補貼台電的部分被刪了，總預算前幾天總統也公布了嘛，因為總預算政府補貼台電的部分被刪了，所以電價審議委員會可能不得不調漲電價。但是3月9號又有另一個報導是台電打算追討1,100億的離島補貼，這是什麼東西？主計長，我們過去的離島用電虧損，是不是都台電吸收？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，都是由中央目的事業主管機關撥補的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，就是離島建設條例第十四條的規定，請問這是不是法定支出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：撥補離島供電的營運虧損是法定支出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它不是屬於基金應該的支出，也不是法定支出啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那離島建設條例第十四條是什麼意思？是不是強制你要編列預算？有沒有？有沒有強制力？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！而且去年經濟委員會還決議：建請離島基金研議撥補台電之可行性！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法律這樣規定了，立法院審議預算也這樣決議了，請問主計總處在籌編明年度預算的時候有沒有想過要怎麼樣依法律的規定編列預算撥補？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分等於是說它還是有虧損，虧損的部分是台電在吸收，對於這個部分，如果你沒有彌補它的話，將來就是要回歸到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這我都知道，但是我問的是，您代表主計總處，請問「編列預算撥補」這六個字有沒有人要做？誰要做？誰該做？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，一般如果不是的話，就要由地方政府來吸收，不然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有說不是什麼地方政府，我現在講的就是離島的這個部分，這個規定在離島建設條例第十四條嘛，目的事業主管機關要審核，然後政府要怎樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要編列預算來撥補。"],["鍾委員佳濱：編列預算是不是您的權責之一？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛，所以就提醒你開始要籌編了，不管是經濟部編在離島建設基金，還是行政院主計總處要有想法了嘛，是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以主計總處是支持用基金來撥補還是另編預算撥補台電？有沒有方向？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它不是基金所能夠負擔的一個項目……"],["鍾委員佳濱：基金現在剩不到10億，而它要1,100億啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，而且也不符合基金的用途啦，對於這個部分，我們一般原則上應該都是要透過總預算來做撥補。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那很清楚了嘛，要透過總預算，如果必要的時候，有沒有可能用追加減預算還是特別預算，你們去評估，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們往下看，現在我們都被問到臺灣跟美國一不一致？一致，因為都把中國視為最大的對抗對象，美國視中國不是對手，是對抗的對手，不是競爭的對手，臺灣視中國為境外敵對勢力，所以美國川普喊話北約要增加軍費到GDP 5%，請問明年我們國防支出的GDP占比會不會提高？過去都在2.45%，會提高嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是希望要把它提高啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！請問提高在哪個部分？一般來講，我們的軍費有兩個部分，一個是武器採購，一個是人員維持。目前我們看到了國軍缺員嚴重，編現比不足，從88%掉到了78%，而總統也宣布了，4月1號開始軍人、海巡有加薪，調整後可能可以增加1萬3,000元到1萬5,000元，而且在這裡面我看到的是，志願役的加給在調整之後，基層的增加幅度多於中階軍官多於將官，你認為這樣合理嗎？還是不評論？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個部分是屬於國防部的權責，而且薪資的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你不反對嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前總統已經有宣布加薪，我只針對這個加薪的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要去籌措預算嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：看怎麼樣籌措預算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問這樣會不會增加我們GDP的占比？會嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：也會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我認為是不夠的。我們來看一下，國軍是需要專業人才的，戰航管加給、電偵加給、網路戰加給，請問你認為這些專業人才，如果是在民間企業的行情如何？因為你們主計總處負責統計，你們有沒有統計過這三類的專業人才，在民間的行情怎麼樣？多少錢，要不要月薪10萬？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們回去統計一下，去了解一下，我認為都超過了。但是我們看一看現在這些人才，資安人才警界也在搶啊，結果呢？警方的資安人才被搶走了啊！200萬的年薪，你認為目前我們公務人員的制度，雖然你不是人總，有可能年薪200萬嗎？很難嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：很難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那怎麼辦？怎麼求才、怎麼留才？我們看一下美軍怎麼做。來，美軍是用PR90，什麼意思？現在就業市場上最高的那10%就是我的薪資水準。你覺得我們公務人員的待遇可以這樣定嗎？我們過去公務人員的待遇都是跟內部來比，低階的人、初階的人要比中階的低，中階的比高階的低，新進人員的薪水一定比資深人員來得低，是不是這樣？美軍不跟你吃這一套啦！他是用現在就業市場，如果這個人現在市場行情是10萬，我就用10萬挖，管他是不是資淺剛新進，就算他進來之後，他的官階比別人低，他的資歷比別人低，前面的人可能是7萬元，他要挖他進來是10萬元，你覺得公務部門、國軍這些必要的部門有沒有可能用這種方式？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個部分是人總根據整個制度，還有包括整個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以你主計總處不會反對這種結構的調整吧？你只在乎總額嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是尊重他，看他要怎麼去做整個結構的調整，我們來配合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我問過人總，人總在調整這個結構，但是調整之後，它的總金額會提高，所以這是主計總處要準備好的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我舉一個例子來講，如果一個大學新進的新生是PR90，你覺得校長會說不行，怎麼今年的新生PR90，現在大四學生當年進來的時候才PR80，會不會這樣想？不會嘛！大學在招攬人才的時候，一看到現在的新生進來是PR越來越高，比他早年的高，這才是我們政府求才留才的方法。所以美國短期專案是以薪敘職，這個讓你參考，這個我也問過人事總處。所以接下來看到，同樣是要求才、留才，財政部次長在這裡，那天我問過部長，金控前十四大只有三家是所謂的泛公股，那如果是臺土輸（臺灣銀行、土地銀行跟輸出銀行）是輸輸輸啊，請問財政部提出方案要提高待遇來爭取留才徵才，你們支不支持？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分已經送到院裡面討論了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們支持嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會去籌措經費？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，人總也在研議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問過人總了，沒有在研議，他已經支持了。我當面問過人總，所以今天我一個一個問，當著財政部的面前，我問主計長支不支持？行政院如果要做這個，你支不支持？人事長支持了，你可以放心。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這要看行政院的裁定，坦白說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，這要看行政院的裁定，但是主計長不反對嘛？","來，我問一下審計長，總是要請教你，審計長，您反不反對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不反對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不反對，很好，對著麥克風說，我們又多了一位，多了一位友軍。審計長，支不支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們尊重行政院的決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼跟你台下講得不一樣，台下說我們支持、我們不反對，到了台上就說我們尊重行政院的決定？好啦！謝謝啦！我來做結論，我希望主計長，您要儘快地告訴我們，站在明年度的預算籌編，怎麼樣撥補台電的離島虧損納入預算籌編，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候可以讓我們委員會或本席知道？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們原則上進入預算的籌編大部分都是4月……"],["鍾委員佳濱：4月底嘛。4月底前可以讓我們知道嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概4到6月我們就開始進行籌編。"],["鍾委員佳濱：4月底前讓本席或本委員會知道，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：4月底是有點太早……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那什麼時候可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概差不多6月底左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：6月底你都編好了啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：差不多，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要問你怎麼編。"],["陳主計長淑姿：6月底要定案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：定案？好，6月就會明朗了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，比較明朗。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是台電的電價審議委員會4月底就會定案了欸，這樣我們是不是要忍受？我們希望如果台電這個預算能夠撥補，電價或許漲幅不會那麼嚴重，所以你們可不可以提早釋出，讓台電心裡有個底，他這1,000億有可能會落袋，才能在電價審議的時候納入考量，可以嗎？你不讓我知道，也要讓台電知道啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實我們一直都是支持台電，因為他這是撥補民生電價……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是支持，但是要透過你的法定職權來展示……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是、是，我們有辦追加了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他不能跟著你口頭的支持來審議電價。"],["陳主計長淑姿：114年也有編，但是問題就是貴院要支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我都知道。現在我的意思是說，電價審議不能只是看今天的影片，你的口頭支持，他必須看到行政院有依法定去進行預算的籌編，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，還有兩點，主席站起來了。另外，希望你們會同國防部跟人總，當然你們比較是輔助的角色，對於我們如何調整薪資結構，仿照美軍的PR90概念，打破過去傳統、資深優於資淺，高階優於低階，其實在我們這次國軍待遇的調升已經看到了，將官調得少，尉官等基層軍官調得多，這就是一個好的方向，配合他們去研議調整薪酬結構，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們尊重人總針對制度的調整……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有國防部。還有，你也支持我們國營金融機構的員工待遇改善方案，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。主席，你也支持吧？"],["主席：謝謝。我提案提了好幾個了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，因為當年這個限制是國民黨立委限制的。"],["主席：誰說的，我們都支持，亂講一通。","謝謝鍾委員的質詢，現在有請賴惠員委員質詢。","報告委員會，賴委員質詢完畢以後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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油料漲了 增加了6千億的一個虧損那這個部分你若不做處理的話 那當然國家撥補嘛那你若都不撥補的話 那當然就有漲電價的壓力那你又不准它漲 又不給它撥補那又要它台電能夠存活下去 這不是矛盾嗎部長同意這樣的看法嗎謝謝委員的這個指教 我們非常同意您的看法"},{"start":67.273,"end":91.73,"text":"所以我認為那如果老師要講到什麼核能的部分那環境基本法第二三條講得非常清楚非核家園嘛如果政府當然就依法行政嘛台電一定依法行政環境部也依法行政嘛那如果朝野能夠達成共識對於核能安全對核廢料的處理對於整個國家對於核能有共識的話那當然也可以來面對嘛但是沒有人要啟動這樣的一個討論跟處理你要台電怎麼去做這件事情"},{"start":92.622,"end":105.748,"text":"我想這就是大院所有的委員只要有一份心考慮到我們的國人應該都會來啟動這樣的一個討論那我認為是誰來發動這樣的一個修法我想都"},{"start":113.391,"end":131.768,"text":"看他對國人的這個照顧有多少我想這一點大概是我們的一個想法我想我們還是全力支持台電就像現在修法方向我們國際局勢轉變了嘛其實慢慢的特別是透過這個俄烏戰爭之後發現很多民營公司倒閉了所以"},{"start":132.368,"end":152.973,"text":"國家最後還是國家要買回因為電力一定是國家最終的責任所以最後的部分這個結構的改變過去的局勢大家希望分散看看能不能市場自由化就後來發現這一套的模式其實恐怕是不可行最後還是要國家承擔人民也沒辦法接受電力出問題啦所以最後這件事情還是要回到國家負起總責任所以是修法的主要原因嘛"},{"start":153.593,"end":170.185,"text":"當然我想因為這樣子因為台灣這個地緣政治我想極端氣候造成這個地緣政治的改變過去的全球化已經結束了現在來講我們必須要靠自己在這個區域上面去努力那麼電業對我們來講我們台灣這麼小但是我們的這個受眾這麼多"},{"start":174.708,"end":191.42,"text":"我們當然一定只能有一家公司不可能彼此再去競爭因為我們要考慮到電跟我們的生命有正相關所以安全生命這個是台電服務國人這個不可或缺的一個重要的一個命題"},{"start":191.92,"end":208.715,"text":"人身的基本的需求甚至於國家安全甚至於淨零碳排的目標甚至於整個國家上的需要那甚至有很多肩負著國家的任務國家要你做你就是必須做嘛所以說這個有時候是為什麼台邊不是必須要由國家來更那個所以我想這個修法像"},{"start":209.827,"end":224.825,"text":"我們全力支持啦謝謝委員再我們看一下其實各國在面對這些也都是用普通電力來做抗通膨的部分那唯獨台灣唯獨台灣最辛苦其他的從五千多億七千多億五千多億只有台灣"},{"start":225.966,"end":254.065,"text":"給了你這個500之後 然後甚至讓你增資之後然後剩下的就不給你了 剩下3000億要你想辦法 又不准你擋電價這實在是 我認為是個矛盾啦就是說你要馬兒好 又要馬兒不吃草不喝水 你要馬兒怎麼活下去這完全是不合理的那整個電價物價其實跟自由化也會相互連動啦 如果你要走向自由化的話那就好 心理準備可能就會產生相關的電價物價 那我們又希望穩定住物價 又希望穩定住電價所以當然就要朝這個方向來走"},{"start":255.946,"end":261.45,"text":"所以我再回到剛剛部長稍微否認掉了沒有所謂那個6%漲天價這事情沒有這事吧報告委員我想6%或者8%或者12%我確實沒有在我主持的會議裡面有這種討論那第二個這個6%是怎麼計算來的我也不清楚"},{"start":276.099,"end":296.525,"text":"不過因為電價不是經濟部或者經濟部長可以決定的事情這個是由電價審議委員他們根據當時那個時候的狀況那麼確定以後才能夠決定這個電價這個電價審議委員裡面也有工業總會的代表也有商業總會的代表有各個"},{"start":297.245,"end":318.775,"text":"民間企業的代表所以基本上經濟部我們只能提供我希望經濟部表達出你們的態度像昨天我看總統到台東去也講了你與其發一萬元出去在野黨的訴求發一萬跟支持這些錢來支持台電就給台電效益來得更大對國家更有幫助因為它能夠穩定住電價同時也能夠讓台電永續經營我們認為這個是一個比較正確的方向"},{"start":323.838,"end":338.748,"text":"謝謝委員我們也感謝總統能夠提示如果大院你們願意給我們一千億的話我相信對這家電價審議委員會有非常明確的提示"},{"start":339.688,"end":363.337,"text":"所以我希望的是應該朝這個方向除了既有的兩條路以外第三條路其實是支持就是增加那因為現在我上次也提過啦新的民意有可能七八月再出現那因為你一旦調漲了以後就回不來了有些東西起來回不來現在蠢蠢欲動啦很多蠢蠢欲動 電價幾乎是基本的我還希望這件事情在審議委員會裡面呢省省的思考啦就在這一段時間"},{"start":364.838,"end":381.301,"text":"當然也許有些方案算出來但先不要動等到新民意出來不然萬一新民意出來的時候其實新民意是反對漲電價支持用補貼的方式的結果你民意漲上去了物價波動了造成影響了已經來不及走回頭路了好不好 是不是能夠這個一列入其中一個選項好嗎"},{"start":382.302,"end":397.117,"text":"我們提供給這個審議委員他們參考好那最後因為時間到了我再問一下骯髒十五國的部分當然有講到其實因為台灣這幾年的整個貿易順差增加相當快現在成為幾乎第六大"},{"start":397.577,"end":419.34,"text":"那台灣也有相當大的一個壓力啦要成為去處理的那我們採購天然氣跟未來採購石油等等這會是未來的方向嗎?除了軍購以外採購這些的這些石油天然氣等等會是我們的減少這個順差的一個方向嗎?報告委員我們都有針對這一些情境去做一些分析然後研擬出對策"},{"start":420.8,"end":443.674,"text":"所以這有可能是未來的方向嘛今天還是要減少順差啦這麼高的順差當然川普現在的策略上面他到處我們有各種 各種這個研擬的情境啦我想這是動態好好 請部長就持續做一個我上次有一種是有提到大林埔千春的部分我希望部長是不是能夠在年底啟動這個登記的程序部長是這個 應該是可以好 朝這個方向可以啦好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝賴瑞榮委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":424,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時18分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：郭部長，辛苦了！"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：聽到前面質詢的這段時間，其實感覺到的就是對於台電是又要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草、不喝水，就是說整個條件上面，其實大家過往採用最多的大概都是用國家撥補的方式來支持台電，然後能夠穩住民生的電價，穩住整個物價。結果現在明明就很清楚，因為俄烏戰爭的關係，油料漲了，增加了6,000億的虧損，這個部分如果不做處理的話，當然要由國家撥補嘛，如果都不撥補的話，當然就有漲電價的壓力。結果現在是不准它漲，又不給它撥補，那又要台電能夠存活下去，這不是矛盾嗎？部長，同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教，我們非常同意您的看法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我認為如果老是要講核能的部分，環境基本法第二十三條講得非常清楚，即非核家園，政府當然依法行政、台電一定依法行政、環境部也依法行政，如果朝野對於核能安全、對核廢料的處理，整個國家能夠達成共識的話，當然也可以來面對，但是沒有人要啟動這樣的討論跟處理，你要台電怎麼去做這件事情。"],["郭部長智輝：我想這就是大院所有的委員，只要有一份心來考慮到我們的國人，應該都會啟動這樣的討論，至於是誰來發動這樣的一個修法，我想就看他對國人的照顧有多少，我想這點大概是我們的一個想法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我想我們還是全力的支持台電。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為就像現在這次修法的方向，國際局勢轉變了嘛！慢慢地特別是透過俄烏戰爭之後，發現很多民營公司倒閉了，最後還是國家要買回，因為電力一定是國家最終的責任。這個結構的改變，過去的局勢，大家希望分散看看能不能市場自由化，後來發現這一套模式恐怕是不可行，最後還是要國家承擔，人民也沒辦法接受電力出問題，所以這件事情還是要回到國家負起總責任，這也是修法的主要原因。"],["郭部長智輝：當然，我想因為極端氣候造成臺灣地緣政治的改變，過去的全球化已經結束了，現在來講，我們必須靠自己在這個區域上面去努力，電業對我們來講，臺灣這麼小，但是我們的受眾這麼多，我們當然一定只能有一家公司，不可能彼此再去競爭，因為要考慮到電跟我們的生命有正相關，所以安全、生命是台電服務國人不可或缺最重要的一個命題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：它涉及到很多人的基本需求、國家的安全、淨零碳排的目標，甚至於整個國家上的需要，有時候肩負著國家的任務，國家要你做，你就是必須做，所以說為什麼台電必須要由國家來……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個修法方向我們全力支持。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，其實各國面對這些也都是用補貼電業來做抗通膨的部分，唯獨臺灣最辛苦，其他的國家從五千多億、七千多億，只有臺灣給你500億，甚至在增資之後剩下的就不給你了，剩下3,000億要你想辦法，又不准你漲電價，我認為是個矛盾啦！就是要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草、不喝水，你要馬兒怎麼活下去，這完全是不合理的。其實整個電價、物價跟自由化也會相互連動，如果你要走向自由化的話，就要有心理準備可能會產生相關的電價問題，那我們希望穩定住物價又希望穩定住電價，所以當然就要朝這個方向來走。我再回到剛剛部長有稍微否認的，沒有所謂6%漲電價這件事情，沒有吧？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，6%、8%或12%，我確實沒有在我主持的會議裡面有這種討論；第二個，這個6%是怎麼計算來的，我也不清楚，不過，因為電價不是經濟部或經濟部長可以決定的事情，這個是由電價審議委員，他們根據當時的狀況，確定以後才能夠決定這個電價。電價審議委員裡面也有工業總會的代表、也有商業總會的代表、有各個民間企業的代表，所以基本上經濟部只能提供……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我還希望經濟部表達出你們的態度，就像昨天，我看總統到臺東也講了，與其在野黨的訴求普發一萬元出去，跟用這些錢來支持台電，給台電的效益來得更大，對國家更有幫助，因為它能夠穩定住電價，同時間能夠讓台電永續經營，我們認為這是一個比較正確的方向，部長，也同意總統這個方向嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我們也很感謝總統能夠提示，如果大院願意給我們這1,000億的話，我相信這個對電價審議委員會有非常明確的提示。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我希望應該朝這個方向，除了既有的兩條路以外，第三條路其實就是支持增加補貼，我上次也提過新的民意有可能7、8月會再出現，因為你一旦調漲以後就回不來了，有些東西起來就回不來，現在很多蠢蠢欲動，電價幾乎是基本的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是希望這件事情在審議委員會裡面審慎的思考，就在這一段時間，當然也許有些方案算出來，但先不要動，等到新民意出來，不然萬一新民意出來之後，其實新民意是反對漲電價，支持用補貼的方式，結果你們已經漲上去了，物價波動造成影響了，已經來不及走回頭路了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是不是這一個也列入其中一個選項，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會提供給審議委員，讓他們參考。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，最後因為時間到了，我再問一下「骯髒15國」的部分，因為臺灣這幾年整個貿易順差增加相當快，現在成為幾乎第六大，臺灣有相當大的一個壓力要去處理，我們採購天然氣跟未來採購石油等等，這會是未來的方向嗎？除了軍購以外，採購這些石油、天然氣等等，會是我們減少順差的一個方向嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都有針對這些情境去做一些分析，然後研擬出對策。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這有可能是未來的方向嗎？還是要減少順差啦！這麼高的順差，當然川普現在的策略上面，他當然……"],["郭部長智輝：我們有各種研擬的情境，我想這是動態。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，請部長就持續保持。最後一個，我上次在總質詢有提到大林蒲遷村的部分，我希望部長是不是能夠在年底啟動登記的程序，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：是，應該是可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，朝這個方向可以啦！"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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老闆 老闆補充我們今天要說做我們透明化的問題的實際登錄啦在本學要跟你談到的就是說之前我們在內政這個委員會也有討論過也有很多官司都反對這個的做法"},{"start":29.944,"end":44.49,"text":"本席要向您在此探討的是,到目前為止,是否有很多官司反對透明化的實際登錄的做法?是否保證,您來回答一下?"},{"start":46.331,"end":52.376,"text":"我們在跟地方政府溝通的過程當中其實不在於地方政府執行的程度他們也願意配合因為租賃市場越透明的話對房客或者對於房東本身啊能夠產生比較好的措施要穩健來推動如果你一方面要求所有的都要做實價登錄的話"},{"start":71.73,"end":81.017,"text":"那房東他可能不想租屋了,整個租屋市場在萎縮的話,不利於房客,但是如果你,然後如果你說以這個房東為主,然後你稅也可以減免,然後也可以不用登錄的話,他這樣子對於房客來講的話又不公平"},{"start":91.244,"end":96.128,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓慢慢的可以不要影響到第一個個資保護還有在市場的推動上面能夠比較這個健康的話我們已經有推出一些措施譬如說剛剛很多人提到的公益房東或者是社會住宅或者是我們用這個去這個識別化的狀況先公佈72.7萬戶我們能夠掌握到的這個租金補貼的方向提供給大家參考也就是說如果有租客看到這些數目的話他會覺得說"},{"start":120.768,"end":126.31,"text":"既然他今天要去租房子,不要讓人家騙了然後對房東來講的話,他也不要覺得說你的價格與眾不同,太高了但是我要跟大家報告,我們大概不會去處理那個頂級的譬如說今天有人要去租地寶,我們可能不會去處理那個所以我們現在出來的不可能是白的"},{"start":144.395,"end":148.257,"text":"因為有時候你的租金的實價登錄時也像剛才我們補充說的那已經上升到最高的最高的租金的行情喔如果破亂了會越去越遠啦所以在這補充我是怎麼說那麼多時間要給你解釋說因為我覺得這需要我們台灣的百姓所了解"},{"start":172.529,"end":173.83,"text":"要做人也好,要人做也好,要了解清楚,不然有的會怕想說自己長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期"},{"start":192.176,"end":195.619,"text":"我們也能夠做好,能夠撐快金錢的人去做事的人,能夠讓他們的負擔更輕,所以保長你剛才的解說,我覺得重點不在這裡,甚至你還有要補充什麼來,保長"},{"start":212.073,"end":239.08,"text":"感謝委員我相信這個租賃市場的透明化要慢慢去引導引導的部分就是說要租客本身或者是房屋的這個房東他自己本身覺得朝著這個方向是好的雖然我們已經制定很多法案包括包租代管業者不動產經濟業者那目前也有人慢慢朝這方面推動那目前我們嘗試著再跟這些包租代管業者就是說能夠互相互動更好能夠保障"},{"start":239.56,"end":251.311,"text":"房客跟保障這個房東自己本身兩方面都有得利譬如說剛有委員在講說這個房屋的這個租金過低那房東不願意進入那這個也是我們擔心的尤其是雙北是一個比較大的這個狀況大家都集中到雙北的時候呢"},{"start":256.095,"end":273.643,"text":"展現在我們租賃市場透明化上面呢就會比其他的這個縣市來的比較少那就表示說這個部分呢我們還可以透過包括社會住宅或是包括包租貸管業者或是包括公益出租人或是包括資訊透明的方向要四線一起推動才比較好你現在"},{"start":274.884,"end":288.012,"text":"猛然喔一顆鼓就說我現在要做什麼事情反而造成這個擾動反而對於租屋本身尤其是對於尋找年輕的青年的這個租客本身會有比較大的衝擊啦這個是我們比較擔心的"},{"start":291.334,"end":295.956,"text":"普通在這個地方 我覺得困難的問題都在這裡跟本市長說 你也想要做得好 做努力的我們要透明化一個法律是我們也能讓北市的生活更好所以你應該覺得很用心的去做這個但是在補助的時候 剛才本市長說的 不能做到毀了"},{"start":320.746,"end":323.008,"text":"做到老公欠老女,又出水,沒工機,又棄機,這樣就很害了本來跟你說這是最要緊的,沒說實在,現在的年輕人也很煩惱"},{"start":337.62,"end":344.202,"text":"主一直去,他也怕租金一直去,這是最重要的一部分啦我們補充,這個要去,再上市,去關心一下,去注意一下,後面來可以更好,在這裡本身也要跟你談到,我們這個租金裡面都有限量"},{"start":362.428,"end":369.874,"text":"電子嘛,在正當的出國的時候,我們就是說出租不可以啦,做的人的電子,可以出台電的收銷的錢嘛,但是,那個時候,他會發嘛,最基本的開始,會發三萬到三十萬嘛,但是我覺得我這個時候,會發五萬到五十萬,跟我"},{"start":389.688,"end":396.452,"text":"覺得聽起來,跟你們去檢舉,檢舉做主的人,感覺出去檢舉啦我覺得好玩的就是,你們的政策,未來就是最擔心的說,電子營照這樣站,人萬一,出水啦,在家裡面的時候,也海龍龍耶"},{"start":414.042,"end":418.405,"text":"普通,這種會有時候說他這裡不要去,去這裡,我們一個政策的時候,可以讓他發生,就安心啦,不然有時候這個年輕人會煩惱啦,說今天你們收的,今天你們收集的,跟對我們的租金,不知道有應有無啦,他說我們有時候,"},{"start":439.637,"end":443.939,"text":"我們這個租金補貼這個今年3百億我們也聽到補償所說的現在申請的已經63萬幾乎了啦第2期已經9千3百幾乎申請通過有8千133乎啦不然未來"},{"start":466.431,"end":468.574,"text":"我們的租金會補貼的時候,我們沒有辦法"},{"start":471.445,"end":474.287,"text":"一檔的補貼 譬如說補貼到10月 譬如說補貼到10月剩下的那一兩個月 要花多少錢 怎樣去想法啦所以說補貼 本身是覺得說我們的財務財務啦 看財務啦在地方的時候 我們這個租金補貼 也是很要緊的啦像高利貸"},{"start":498.803,"end":500.045,"text":"八千一百三十三戶,一戶兩個就好,就應用到萬樂的了所以保證,這個租金補貼,是對需要的人"},{"start":514.462,"end":516.804,"text":"非常的煩惱說 跟我今年未來 我的資金要怎樣 要去帶酒 要去帶鐵嗎來 補充 這個問題你回答一下謝謝 王議員的關心啦 沒錯啦 因為今年的三百億裡面因為我們是要行政院有一個公務預算撥補兩百億啦"},{"start":535.864,"end":543.927,"text":"那現在當然就是卡在立法院那那個嘉義市現在的這個合訂啦到3月20的時候是合訂是8000多戶8137戶那撥款的金額是7000多萬但是沒有錯有可能到10月或11月的時候呢這個租金就用盡了啦對 因為本身我們有要跟你們有要探討這個問題可能沒辦法 沒辦法撥得出來啦"},{"start":560.333,"end":565.037,"text":"因為我們前述不夠因為我們原先預估的是三百億嘛現在兩百億掉在柳煥英裡面所以我本身想跟你說這看要如何邀請他去解決這個問題"},{"start":576.528,"end":579.512,"text":"當時要怎麼處理,有些人覺得他做法不是這樣,我覺得這個問題對北省的租金來說非常大"},{"start":593.867,"end":603.934,"text":"對 尤其是很多年輕人 他們很大 他們的租金打折啦打折 打成八折或是打成九折那現在我們要跟你說的就是 你的申請到現在 你沒有到 到現在還可以申請喔"},{"start":611.278,"end":613.039,"text":"因為你們的目標是75萬戶,現在63萬戶,你們現在說錢沒夠喔現在這是一個問題喔,保證,你要上市去算好喔本身要跟你說一下,租用住宅,你們在這裡面有規定"},{"start":634.289,"end":639.794,"text":"我們會覺得四十平方公尺給台灣人叫做十二倍啦在這個年代 我覺得你們要去評估 再去看一下有時候他的故鄉 阿嬤大了 還有老闆出了有時候又退出了 你們如果整天這樣有時候他有沒有心情 又沒辦法心情 我知道你們的後遺"},{"start":660.333,"end":664.396,"text":"你們真正要想辦法說我們本來要補貼是老白老虎剩下現在老白老虎沒剩下算配合自己啦我認為未來你們要去上市去看去處理因為本身的資訊的時間也夠了啦因為最美的一點就是我們的基本資助的水準啦"},{"start":688.436,"end":693.777,"text":"在這裏面已經十幾年了,你們要如何去處理,去解決問題正當我們的林宥昌部長也有說過,要改到現在本席所了解,不然改"},{"start":706.981,"end":715.069,"text":"我們補貼這個數據先辦單位用心去處理以上謝謝 我給王議員再補充數字我們累計申請的這個租金補貼現在是75萬8千多戶那合訂的話是64萬2千多戶"},{"start":725.938,"end":734.184,"text":"那你剛所提到的就是說他在申請的面積上面的算法的話我們再跟地方政府再來核定一下看怎麼對讓地方政府來做比較詳細的審查"},{"start":755.658,"end":763.512,"text":"去配合去了解啦我們來合調可以讓這個政府的美意再做好到底啦是好我們來改進好感謝完美會委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時45分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["王委員美惠：部長你好，早安。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長，今天討論租賃透明化的問題，包括實價登錄，本席要跟你探討的是，之前我們在內政委員會也有討論過，也有很多縣市都反對這種做法，本席要跟你在這裡探討，到目前為止是不是很多縣市反對這種透明化實價登錄的做法？請部長來回答。"],["劉部長世芳：是，王委員，對於租賃市場的透明化是我們推動的方向，我們在跟地方政府溝通的過程當中，其實不在於地方政府執行的程度，他們也願意配合，因為租賃市場越透明的話，對於房客或是對於房東本身能夠產生比較好的措施並穩健來推動，如果你一方面要求所有的都要做實價登錄的話，房東可能不想租屋了，整個租屋市場再萎縮的話，不利於房客。"],["王委員美惠：對，說不定會造成租金越漲越高。"],["劉部長世芳：但是如果以房東為主，不但稅可以減免，也可以不用登錄的話，這樣對於房客來講的話又不公平，所以怎麼樣慢慢可以在不要影響到個資保護的狀況下，還有在市場推動的運作上面能夠比較健康，我們已經有推出一些措施，譬如，剛剛很多人提到的公益房東或社會住宅，還有我們用去識別化的方式先公布72.7萬戶，我們能夠掌握到的租金補貼的方向，提供給大家參考。如果租客看到這些數目的話，他會覺得至少他今天要去租房子不要被騙了，對房東來講，他也不要覺得他的價格與眾不同、太高了，但是我要跟大家報告，我們大概不會去處理頂級的狀況，譬如，有人要租帝寶，我們就可能不會去處理那一塊，所以我們現在出來的不可能是百分之百。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我最主要就是要問你這個問題，關於租金實價登錄，萬一就像剛剛部長說的，如果他只登記最高的，這樣租金行情會被打亂或是越漲越高。部長，我之所以給你這麼多時間解釋、說明，是因為我覺得這需要讓我們臺灣的百姓瞭解，不管是出租也好或租屋也好，都要瞭解清楚一點，不然有的人會害怕，如果實價登錄只登記高價的，低價的沒有登記，人民都已經艱苦到不知道要怎麼租屋，所以我們希望中央政府可以做得更好，讓經濟因難又需要租屋者的負擔可以減輕，我覺得部長剛剛解釋的重點在這裡，部長是不是還有要補充什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員。我相信租賃市場的透明化要慢慢去引導，讓租客本身或房屋的房東自己覺得朝著這個方向是好的，雖然我們已經制定很多法案，包括包租代管業者、不動產經紀業者，目前也有人慢慢朝這個方面推動。目前我們嘗試著在跟這些包租代管業者能夠互相互動更好，能夠保障房客和房東兩方面都有得利，譬如，剛剛有委員提到房屋的租金過低，房東不願意進入，這個也是我們擔心的。"],["王委員美惠：這也是一個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：尤其雙北是一個比較大的狀況，大家都集中到雙北的時候，展現在租賃市場透明化上面就會比其他縣市來得比較少，就表示這個部分我們還可以透過包括社會住宅、包租代管業者、公益出租人或是資訊透明的方向，要四線一起推動才比較好。現在猛然、一下子就說我要做什麼事情，反而會造成擾動，對於租屋者本身，尤其是對於青年租客會有比較大的衝擊，這個是我們比較擔心的。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我覺得困難的問題都在這裡，本席知道你們也想要把它做好，你們很努力，透過透明化、透過法制就是希望可以讓百姓的生活過得更好，你們很用心去推動這些政策，不過還有不足的地方，就像本席剛剛說的，不要做到最後是「做甲流汗、嫌甲流瀾」，租金不降反漲，這樣就很糟糕了，本席跟你說的是最要緊的，不然說實在，現在的年輕人也很擔心房子一直漲，他們也怕租金一直漲，這是最重要的部分，我也希望部長要再詳細關心一下、注意一下，未來可以做得更好。","再來，本席要跟你探討在租賃契約裡面都有限制電費的收取，從去年7月開始就規定房東不行向租屋者收取超過台電所收的電費，超過的話會被罰款，最基本一開始會罰3萬到30萬，如果情況惡劣的話會罰5萬到50萬，我這樣聽起來你們是要房客去檢舉，不過租屋者敢檢舉房東嗎？我比較擔心、擔憂的是，未來你們政策實施的方向是電費要按照這樣的方式收取，萬一加在房租裡面的話也會很糟糕，部長，會有這種這裡不漲、那裡漲的情況，我希望我們的政策可以讓百姓更加安心，不然這些年輕人會擔心，今天你們修的，今天你們所談的，對我們的租金不知道有沒有影響。","今年的租金補貼300億，我也有聽到部長所說的，現在已經六十三萬多戶申請了，嘉義市已經有九千三百多戶申請，通過的有8,133戶，不過未來我們的租金補貼如果沒辦法補貼到一年，譬如只補貼到10月、11月，剩下的1、2個月要叫百姓怎麼生活？部長，本席覺得我們談歸談、看歸看，在地方上租金補貼也是很要緊的事情，像嘉義市已經通過8,133戶，如果1戶算2人就好，就會影響到1萬6,000人了，所以部長，需要租金補貼的人非常擔心今年後面的租金要怎麼辦，要去哪裡借、要去哪裡拿，部長，這個問題你回答一下。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝王委員的關心。沒錯，因為今年300億裡面有一個是行政院公務預算撥補的200億，現在就是卡在立法院，嘉義市截至3月20日止核定8,137戶，撥款金額七千多萬，沒有錯，有可能到10月或11月的時候這個租金補貼就用罄了，我們再一起努力……"],["王委員美惠：對，因為本席也都有在跟你們探討這個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：有可能沒辦法撥得出來，因為我們的錢數不夠，我們原先的預估是300億，現在有200億卡在立法院裡面，這對我們造成很大的困擾。"],["王委員美惠：部長，本席要跟你說的是，要怎麼趕快去解決這個問題，如果是凍結要怎麼去處理，有的人提凍結也口口聲聲說他的做法不是這樣，我覺得這個問題實在對申請租金補貼的百姓來說影響非常的大。"],["劉部長世芳：對，尤其是對很多年輕人影響很大，等於是讓他的租金打折，打成八折或是打成九折。"],["王委員美惠：現在本席要跟你說的是，你們的預算不夠，但是到現在還可以申請，因為你們的目標是75萬戶。"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們是繼續在核定。"],["王委員美惠：現在已經申請63萬戶，你們現在錢不夠，這是一個問題，部長，你要再仔細計算一下。本席要再跟你討論自用住宅的規定，你們有一個規定是40平方公尺也就是12坪，我覺得你們還可以再評估看看，有可能是在他的故鄉阿嬤住的「土角厝」或是鐵皮屋，你們如果這樣規定，會讓他連申請都沒辦法申請，我知道你們是好意，你們之前也有想辦法要解決這個問題，本來申請補貼的規定是連父母都要計入，現在父母不計入，只計入配偶及小孩，我覺得未來你們要再詳細去評估看看怎麼處理。因為本席質詢的時間也到了，最後一點就是我們的基本居住水準，在這裡已經十幾年了，你們要如何去處理、去解決問題？去年林右昌部長也有說過要再改，至今依本席所瞭解的還是沒改，希望部長、署長及承辦單位用心去處理，以上。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。我跟王委員補充說明數字資料，我們累計申請的租金補貼，現在是七十五萬八千多戶，核定是六十四萬兩千多戶。你剛剛所提到的在申請面積上面的算法，我們再跟地方政府再來核定一下，讓地方政府來做比較詳細的審查，當然我們不會……"],["王委員美惠：對啦！有時候是「土角厝」，有時候真的……"],["劉部長世芳：要不要記錄，對、對。"],["王委員美惠：是不是要記錄下來，可以讓他去申請的問題？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["王委員美惠：我們是在地方，因為當我們遇到問題跟你們反映，你們要去跟地方政府配合、瞭解。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來協調。"],["王委員美惠：可以讓政府的美意做得更加道地，以上。"],["劉部長世芳：是，好。我們來改進。"],["主席：感謝王美惠委員。"],["王委員美惠：不好意思。"],["主席：沒關係。","下一位我們請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159540","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159540","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc02c18474f9666049671db0abd93ed56f17b033ce60c83815f1563234e73618c5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:56:30 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邀請部長好 請部長"},{"start":16.468,"end":35.438,"text":"部長好 早上本席在法案題討論的時候我特別提出電源法第六條的規定那麼台電也必須在2026年1月1日前就完成長網的分離轉型為控股母公司 拆成發電輸配電"},{"start":37.199,"end":44.625,"text":"以及售電三家公司但是本席也說了因為時事環境社會的一個現象產生惡霧戰爭之後呢全球整個能源市場劇烈的一個變動許多的國家選擇重新調整他電業的結構而我國也要達成2050年淨零碳排的政策目標就需要大型的綜合電業來執行綠電"},{"start":63.82,"end":88.576,"text":"的一個囤購那麼以及新能源如地熱的開發跟投資那麼如果把台電這個拆分那恐導致我們整個供電穩定性的一個下降甚至影響國家能源的安全所以在這樣的一個條件之下呢本校請教部長本席的提案電液法第六條的修正案我也希望台電能夠維持整個這個綜合電"},{"start":92.398,"end":96.229,"text":"这个综合电业形态那么请教部长你的看法"},{"start":99.243,"end":124.952,"text":"這個委員的您這個支持中和電業繼續走這個跟我們院內的版本完全是一樣的所以你是支持本席的提案我們支持這個委員的提案好好的讓這個供電能夠穩定那麼同時也能夠跟世界來接軌這是非常重要這也就是我們大家一定要怎麼樣好好的來討論我們整個能源政策以及經營的方式那接下來本席要跟你討論的是"},{"start":126.112,"end":143.639,"text":"在中研院的永續中心它的一個評估說我國每一年大概要2800億度的用電那到了2050年我們可能要5000億度那即便我們的再生能源每一年我本學的統計可以提供大概270億度"},{"start":145.18,"end":149.642,"text":"那預估在2050年的時候可以上升到1千億度但是如果照這樣的一個數字我們還上缺再生能源的部分是4千億度那可是我們馬上可用的無碳電力恐怕就是合二跟合三了那至於我們現在所推動的天然氣去碳海洋能 生殖能"},{"start":170.371,"end":186.462,"text":"地熱能等需要努力的找很多的方法來去產生那逐漸攀升的這個用電已經刻不容緩我相信這也是部長你必須也是政府必須要嚴肅的去應對跟重視所以在去年的時候給一個面向唯獨率先來擁抱核能與美國能用公司簽署了為期20年的核電採購協議"},{"start":200.271,"end":228.342,"text":"那亞馬遜 Google也都陸續的拍板做核電的一個採購來確保整個電力的穩定供給那給他們自家的AI資料中心可以使用那Google早已經在我們台灣2013年開始他就在我們台灣設立這個資料中心目前他們也正在佈局第三座的資料中心微軟在我們我國的資料中心是在2020年開始使用"},{"start":230.764,"end":241.223,"text":"亞馬遜在去年也宣布在台灣要建構第三部第三座的這個資料中心喔那麼我們的能源政策就目前為止是在非核家園嗎是嗎"},{"start":243.134,"end":266.836,"text":"非核家園是我們在目前為止目前我們的核管法上面有規定是非核家園那如果說我們目前一樣我們對核電的這個觀點是這樣就三個基本原則第一個安全無虞第二個全民有共識第三個核廢料必須要能夠處理目前最大的問題是在核廢料"},{"start":267.557,"end":291.995,"text":"可不可以處理現在到目前為止大家都口頭說可以處理願意來協助處理但是要在哪裡處理這個是一個非常大的問題大家都不願意在大家附近來處理所以部長你現在的回答你的三大原則那結果還是目前我們的面向就是在非核家園所以本席要請教在非核家園的政策下能夠填補這個龐大的供電缺口嗎"},{"start":296.258,"end":315.208,"text":"我們正在努力的往這個目標在前進所以我之前有回答委員講說我有可能透過買電的方式來讓我們的備份可以買來做買電的方式就是包括核電備電還是包括核電是嗎"},{"start":319.63,"end":335.322,"text":"買來的電力裡面就是包括核電市場上面需求什麼電我們哪個地方比較不足我們會買所以是包括你買的核電成本的問題嘛是成本是最便宜啊現在1.12元啊我如果要比較貴的電大家就說你這是圖利嘛本席可以解讀部長您剛才所說的回答也就是你預估要備電的部分也包括購買核電"},{"start":350.265,"end":376.514,"text":"這個購買核電應該是就是說剛才那個三個條件不存在的情況之下我們也可以買購買核電不存在剛剛你講的三大原則核電的三個原則核廢料可以處理全民有共識所以本席要請教那麼核電研議討論核電的占比是不是就誠如童子賢董事長所說的"},{"start":377.728,"end":387.342,"text":"也是你們的副召集人所說的我們可以賺很多N個千億所以就不用來漲我們的電價"},{"start":389.467,"end":396.13,"text":"從你們整個的能源政策配比去做一個整體性的研討釜底抽薪因為如果沒有去討論我們的能源配比的部件我也歡喜聽到剛剛部長你所說的你買的電包瓜是核電的備用這個項目你點頭了所以本期希望你們要好好的去討論因為在整個科技巨頭真相來台灣投資的時候你政府"},{"start":419.179,"end":423.16,"text":"要切記不要耽誤了我們產業的一個發展我們都歡迎討論啦都在可以討論啦只要把那個法修過我們當然就是可以來好我們也請大家朝野的委員聽到部長所說的法通過之後他會循著這個方向去做"},{"start":438.644,"end":460.868,"text":"一定尊重大院的這個決定最後一個功課我給你一分鐘就好美國計畫在4月2號提出了對等關稅的政策那麼針對美國徵收的高關稅且貿易最大的國家將這些國家稱為骯髒15國那據報導路透社的報導包括美國前15大貿易夥伴如墨西哥、加拿大"},{"start":461.348,"end":482.094,"text":"中國 德國 日本包括我台灣因為台灣對美的貿易量呢關稅也較高所以被列入在15國之內那請教部長我們如果真的是被列入在這個骯髒15國之中會對哪些的產業造成最大的影響那你的因應方案是怎麼樣"},{"start":483.227,"end":492.919,"text":"報告委員我簡單的跟你報告就是說我們所有的情境分析都有所以根據這些情境我們都有對策都有對策所以也確定我們是列在15國的骯髒15國之內不管有沒有列在骯髒15國之內"},{"start":500.956,"end":511.241,"text":"我們都有做狀況分析 情況分析我們都有對策你有對策 所以我也要敬請敬請我們部長一定要嚴正以待因為我們產業都蠻緊張的當然針對關稅以及上次所提的匯率的問題是務必請你一定要隨時了解最新的進度協助我們的產業是謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時56分）楊瓊瓔發言，主席，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。早上本席在法案討論的時候，我特別提出電業法第六條的規定，台電也必須在2026年1月1日前完成廠網分離，轉型為控股母公司，並拆成發電、輸配電與售電3家公司。但是本席也說了，因為時事環境、社會的現象產生，俄烏戰爭之後，全球整個能源市場劇烈變動，許多國家選擇重新調整電業結構，而我國也要達成2050年淨零碳排政策目標，需要大型綜合電業執行綠電躉購及新能源，如地熱開發及投資，如果把台電拆分，恐導致我們整個供電穩定性下降，甚至影響國家能源安全。所以在這樣的條件之下，本席要請教部長，本席提案電業法第六條修正案，我也希望台電能夠維持整個綜合電業型態，請教部長你的看法？"],["郭部長智輝：委員支持綜合電業繼續走，這個跟我們院內的版本是完全一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你是支持本席的提案？"],["郭部長智輝：我們支持委員的提案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好好地讓供電能夠穩定，同時也能夠跟世界接軌，這非常重要，也就是我們大家一定要好好地討論整個能源政策及經營方式。","接下來，本席要跟你討論的是，根據中研院永續中心評估，我國每年大概要2,800億度用電，到了2050年可能要5,000億度，即便我們的再生能源，據本席統計每年可以提供大概270億度，預估在2050年的時候可以上升到1,000億度，但是如果照這樣的數字，再生能源的部分仍尚缺4,000億度。可是我們馬上可用的無碳電力恐怕就是核二跟核三了，至於現在所推動的天然氣去碳、海洋能、生質能、地熱能等需要努力再找很多方法來產生，逐漸攀升的用電已經刻不容緩，我相信這是部長必須，也是政府必須要嚴肅地應對跟重視。所以在去年的時候，微軟率先擁抱核能，與美國能源公司簽署了為期20年的核電採購協議，亞馬遜、Google也都陸續拍板進行核電的採購，以確保電力的穩定供給，並給自家的AI資料中心使用。早在2013年，Google就已經在我們臺灣設立資料中心，目前正在布局設置第三座資料中心。微軟在我國所設置的資料中心於2024年開始使用，亞馬遜也在去年宣布在臺灣設置第三座資料中心。但我們的能源政策到目前為止仍舊是非核家園，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：非核家園是我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止。"],["郭部長智輝：目前核管法上有規定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是非核家園？所以本席要請教部長……"],["郭部長智輝：目前一樣，我們對核電的觀點秉持三個基本原則：第一個安全無虞、第二個全民有共識、第三個核廢料必須要能夠處理。目前最大的問題在於核廢料可不可以處理，到目前為止，大家都口頭說可以處理，願意來協助處理，但是要在哪裡處理？這是一個非常大的問題，大家都不願意在住家附近來處理……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，以你現在回答的三大原則來看，目前的結果我們的面向還是在非核家園。所以本席要請教，在非核家園的政策下，能夠填補這個龐大的供電缺口嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們正在努力往這個目標前進，我之前曾經有回答過委員，有可能透過買電的方式來作為備份……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：買電的方式是包括核電？還是備電包括核電？是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：買來的電力裡面就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括核電？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上，市場上需求什麼電，我們哪個地方比較不足，我們會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以包括你買的核電？"],["郭部長智輝：因為那是成本問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：成本最便宜啊！現在1.42元。"],["郭部長智輝：如果買貴一點的電，大家就說是圖利……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以部長剛才所說的，本席可以解讀為，你預估要備電的部分也包括購買核電？"],["郭部長智輝：購買核電應該在剛才所說的那三個條件不存在的情況之下，我們也可以買。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：購買核電不存在剛剛你講的三個原則？"],["郭部長智輝：核電的三個原則，核廢料可以處理，全民有共識，安全無虞……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席請教，核電研議、討論核電的占比，是不是就誠如童子賢董事長，也是你們的副召集人所說的，我們可以賺N個千億，這樣就不用來漲電價？亦即從你們整個能源政策配比做整體性的研討，釜底抽薪。如果沒有討論能源配比的布建……我也很高興聽到剛剛部長說，買的電包括核電備用，你點頭了？所以本席希望你們要好好去討論，同時切記，在科技巨頭爭相來臺灣投資時不要耽誤了產業的發展！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都歡迎討論，也都可以討論，只要法修過，我們當然就是可以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：朝野委員大家都聽到部長所說的了，法通過之後，他會循著這個方向去做！"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定尊重大院的決定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個功課，一分鐘就好。美國計畫在4月2日提出對等關稅政策，即美國將徵收高關稅且是對美貿易最大的國家，並將這些國家稱為骯髒十五國。據路透社報導，美國前十五大貿易夥伴，如墨西哥、加拿大、中國、德國、日本，包括臺灣等。因為臺灣對美貿易量大，關稅也較高，所以被列入十五國之內。請教部長，我們如果真的被列入骯髒十五國之中，會對哪些產業造成重大影響？你的因應方案是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我簡單跟委員報告。我們有做所有的情境分析，而根據這些情境我們都有對策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都有對策？所以確定我們是列在骯髒十五國之內？"],["郭部長智輝：不管有沒有在骯髒十五國之列，我們都有做狀況分析、情況分析，我們也有都有對策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有對策？無論如何，我要敬請我們部長一定要嚴陣以待，因為產業都蠻緊張的。"],["郭部長智輝：當然、當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對關稅以及上次所提的匯率問題，務必請你一定要隨時了解最新的進度，協助我們的產業。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","下一位請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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甚至只有零點幾"},{"start":124.68,"end":150.761,"text":"這政府實在是遇到疫情疫情之後又國際地緣衝突所以使得國際之間的物價非常的不穩定那經濟的成長當時預估可能會有困難所以才會有這一些舉動今年如果照去年的這個預算的實收數高於預算數中央政府的部分中央部分大概是3700多億吧那3700多億"},{"start":154.485,"end":169.932,"text":"可是去年的預算裡面光是要舉借的金額是多少?1571億那一部分後來是不是就沒有舉借,有錢的就不用舉借了啊對,不僅沒有舉借而且多還了1500多億這兩個加起來就3000多億那你3700億填補這個窟窿"},{"start":177.523,"end":204.972,"text":"沒有借在線上多還的就剩下幾百億而已啊所以如果你因為預算上面的時收數高於預算數三千億你就要來編特你就規定說要來發現金的話那這不是變成政府必須要舉借來發現金嗎的確會有這個問題以前我們的賴昭偉我最佩服的是他非常堅持財政紀律啦"},{"start":206.377,"end":213.331,"text":"哪有人除非情況非不得已不然的話一個政府怎麼會去借錢要來發現金給國民呢而且這個發現金給國民"},{"start":219.01,"end":240.401,"text":"這個預算的理想是要調劑營需要縮短財富差距的倍數所以如果要照顧民眾的話要照顧中低收入戶最優先照顧弱勢最優先照顧需要照顧人最優先你一普發會有一個狀況"},{"start":242.472,"end":270.901,"text":"非常有錢的人張忠謀是我們的國民他這麼有錢他需要你這一萬塊嗎那立法委員的薪水一個月都二十幾萬當然我們支出也很多但是有需要這一萬塊嗎就變成說本來預算的另外一個目的希望能夠調劑營需對中央地方還有對國民之間的財富差距的縮小"},{"start":272.214,"end":288.07,"text":"變成這個普發也沒有辦法達到這個功效是不是有這樣的狀況啊市長你回答一下嘛市長所以我一直認為說這裡面大有問題啊為什麼要這樣做呢這是我私人個人的猜測啦因為"},{"start":291.673,"end":306.844,"text":"政府要撥補台電的一千億砍掉啦預算碼要刪掉不給他過啊所以四月電價眼看就要漲價啦國人都知道漲價是因為政府錢準備要撥補台電你不給他撥補嘛"},{"start":309.44,"end":336.501,"text":"所以電價會漲怕人家罵現在趕快推出說我要發現金所以就有人說過嘛你何必這樣子呢你那一千億政府準備的錢你給台電台電不用漲這個民生電價那你就不用擔心還不用後面要來發錢來補是一萬塊錢比較重要呢還是電價漲的時候因為電價漲價所引動的生產成本各式各樣的成本漲價或低調"},{"start":339.252,"end":359.869,"text":"所以說為了要達到政治的目的做政治的攻防去做錯誤的事情繞了一圈然後再拿錯誤的事情要來填補這是我私人的看法而且這樣做違憲因為立法院沒有預算的提案權我們是預算的審議權"},{"start":361.77,"end":381.394,"text":"你的預算提來立法院 我們審議覺得有不適當的地方 適當的刪減而不是像這樣子啦 六千億 刪減或凍結要六千億國家的總預算才三億 三兆一千萬 三兆一千億 弄了六千億 更何況連監察院96%"},{"start":384.655,"end":413.326,"text":"這個行政費 事務費都把我拿掉我那天公祭遇到李鴻鈞啊以前我們在地方 我們是朋友嘛他現在當副院長他跟我抱怨說你們立法院亂搞讓我們台電 電費已經兩個月付不出來我來講 兄弟 蔡華瓊做不喜歡亂搞是要刪除的人給你機關預算然後把你的事務費全部都拿掉你什麼事情都不能做嘛"},{"start":414.975,"end":443.238,"text":"連電梯都不能開啊紙也不能用現在立法委員要到如果要去做財產申報以前是電腦打開大家直接對就可以了資料取得很方便現在要到立法院去他沒有要用書面來所以假設每一個立法委員在銀行的戶頭都要去銀行請資料用紙本大家來對本來三分鐘可以處理的事情現在三天處理不完啊"},{"start":445.297,"end":465.011,"text":"這次就是現狀 因為亂刪減預算的結果所以現在面臨一個大罷免的風潮結果真正富裕的時候 如果好好大家坐下來商量這件事情那就是一個補考的機會 把它弄回來正常 可以討論"},{"start":466.536,"end":485.333,"text":"一樣啊 財化法也一樣啊你們就還沒有跟把那個公事弄好地方也沒有弄好 你現在公事就搶錢那也不來講說事務增加多少將惡搞的結果要一團亂所以難怪會有人推測說是故意要讓中華民國癱瘓真的這種話我在民間都聽到了那這個"},{"start":492.455,"end":519.694,"text":"大家對立法院有意見 民眾對立法委員有意見不是因為選出來之後馬上翻臉啦是你自己做的事情是不是好好的想一下有哪一些事情做得真的讓人家不滿意那大家坐下來把這個結怎麼好好的解開解開自然就沒罷免了嘛那時候我們自己現在在聊啊如果總預算的刪減是民眾不滿的原因"},{"start":520.885,"end":549.336,"text":"那複製的時候好好來談再花點時間把這個總預算處理好適當的刪減 大家給你鼓掌惡意的亂刪 全部這樣子亂砍結果他就不要啊連讓院長來立法院報告都不要啊就用一天 然後就把他表決通過了啊才化法也一樣啊你這個越綁越緊就是硬要火車對撞嘛"},{"start":551.014,"end":575.503,"text":"所以我在這個地方誠懇的呼籲過去這個東西是有制度的我們是有財政紀律的你的預算的處理應該像過去的方法先由行政院考量整個社會的狀況認為有必要的話提一個特別條例來到立法院經立法院對特別條例審查的結果"},{"start":576.483,"end":583.131,"text":"再根據這個結果來編列預算到本院來審議通過之後再來處理這樣才是正辦 對不對"},{"start":585.013,"end":612.001,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們目前的做法就是說我們如果稅收如果實證數超過預算數的話我們是先還債,那麼減少舉債如果多的,那麼就是移到稅金剩餘那稅金剩餘的運用就要看我們的施政優先順序比如說像民生或者是照顧弱勢或者是國防等等這些由行政部門做通盤的考量"},{"start":612.461,"end":620.895,"text":"是啦 這個才是正辦啦加油要堅持啦對的事情要堅持不要被帶到錯的方向去啦謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳秉瑞委員來 我們接下來賴仕寶 賴昭緯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":287,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時49分）主席，麻煩請陳主計長跟阮次長。"],["主席：請陳主計長、阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：兩位好。我在這個地方有十幾年的經驗，所以我對於普發現金或是類似現金的消費券，大概有遇到過幾次，第一次是馬政府時代；第二次是蔡政府時代，蔡政府時代是發三倍券、五倍券，再加上6,000塊現金，這一些都有一個共同的特徵，都是行政院認為應該要這樣做，所以他提了一個特別條例到立法院審議，立法院通過之後，再根據這個特別條例編預算，然後再來實施。也就是說，立法院依照憲法是審查預算，不能做預算的提案，如果你把預算的提案放在法律的硬性規定，那行政權存在的兩大支柱：一個預算、一個人事，就被你立法機關拿走了。像我在立法院這一屆進來宣誓的時候，我們誓詞上面是寫要恪遵憲法，但是現在好像都不把憲法當作一回事，反正要達到政治目的比較重要，我覺得正常的程序應該是這樣才對吧！如果現在說不要，我要給你訂在法律裡面，立法院高興要給你怎麼用就給你怎麼用，沒有經過詳細的評估嘛！在馬政府的時代，那個時候經濟遇到重挫，經濟成長率非常低，甚至只有零點幾，然後在蔡政府時代是遇到疫情，在疫情之後又有地緣衝突，使得國際之間的物價非常地不穩定，經濟的成長在當時預估可能會有困難，所以才會有這一些舉動。如果照去年預算的實收數高於預算數，中央政府的部分大概是三千七百多億，可是在去年的預算裡面光是要舉借的金額是多少？"],["阮次長清華：1,571億。"],["吳委員秉叡：那一部分後來是不是就沒有舉借？因為有錢了，就不用舉借了！"],["阮次長清華：對，不僅沒有舉借，而且多還了一千五百多億。"],["吳委員秉叡：這兩個加起來就……"],["阮次長清華：三千多億。"],["吳委員秉叡：三千多億？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你3,700億填補這個窟窿，沒有借，再加上多還的，就剩下幾百億而已啊！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以如果你因為預算上面的實收數高於預算數3,000億，你就規定要來發現金的話，那這不是變成政府必須要舉借來發現金嗎？"],["阮次長清華：的確會有這個問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：以前對於我們的賴召委，我最佩服的就是他非常堅持財政紀律，除非情況不得已，不然政府怎麼會去借錢要來發現金給國民呢？而且發現金給國民照這個預算的理想是要調劑盈需，就是要縮短財富差距的倍數，所以如果要照顧民眾的話，要以照顧中低收入戶為最優先，以照顧弱勢為最優先，以照顧需要照顧的人為最優先。如果你普發的話，就會有一個狀況，非常有錢的人像張忠謀是我們的國民，他這麼有錢，他需要你這1萬塊嗎？那立法委員的薪水1個月都二十幾萬，當然我們的支出也很多，但是有需要這1萬塊嗎？就變成說本來預算的另外一個目的是希望調劑盈需，讓中央、地方還有國民之間財富的差距縮小，可是如果普發的話，也沒有辦法達到這個功效，是不是會有這樣的狀況？次長，你回答一下嘛！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！所以我一直認為這裡面大有問題。為什麼要這樣做呢？這是我個人的猜測，因為政府要撥補台電的1,000億被砍掉了，把人家的預算刪掉、不給它過啊！所以眼看在4月電價就要漲價了，國人都知道漲價的原因，就是因為政府把錢準備好了要撥補台電，可是你不給它撥補嘛！所以電價會漲，因為怕人家罵，所以現在趕快推出說要發現金。就有人說過：你何必這樣子呢？那1,000億是政府準備的錢，你給台電，台電就不用漲民生電價，那你就不用擔心，也不用後面還要發錢來補。是1萬塊錢比較重要呢？還是在電價漲了之後，因為電價漲價所引動的生產成本、各式各樣的成本漲價會抵掉？所以這就是為了要達到政治的目的，做政治的攻防，去做了錯誤的事情，繞了一圈，然後再拿錯誤的事情要來填補啊！這是我私人的看法。","而且這樣做是違憲，因為立法院沒有預算的提案權，我們只有預算的審議權，你的預算提來立法院，我們審議時覺得有不適當的地方就做適當的刪減，而不是像這樣子要刪減、凍結6,000億，國家的總預算才3兆1,000億，就弄掉6,000億，更何況把監察院96%的行政費、事務費都拿掉了。我那一天參加公祭的時候遇到李鴻鈞，以前我們在地方的時候是朋友，他現在當副院長，他跟我complain說你們立法院亂搞，讓他們電費已經2個月付不出來。我跟他說：兄弟，要弄清楚，不是我們亂搞，是要刪除的人針對你機關的預算，然後把你的事務費全部都拿掉，讓你什麼事情都不能做，連電梯都不能開，紙也不能用。現在立法委員如果要去做財產申報，以前是電腦打開大家直接對就可以了，資料取得很方便，現在沒有，要送書面來，假設每一個立法委員在銀行的戶頭都要去銀行申請資料，大家用紙本來對，本來3分鐘可以處理好的事情，現在3天都處理不完，這就是現狀啊！就是因為亂刪減預算的結果，所以現在面臨一個大罷免的風潮嘛！在審查覆議案的時候，如果大家好好坐下來商量這件事情，那就是一個補考的機會，把它回復到正常，可以討論。財劃法也一樣啊！你們就還沒有把那個公式弄好，地方也沒有弄好，你現在光是搶錢，也不來講說他們的事務增加多少，這樣惡搞的結果就是一團亂，所以難怪會有人推測說是故意要讓中華民國癱瘓，我在民間真的都聽到這種話了。","大家對立法院有意見，民眾對立法委員有意見，不是選出來之後馬上翻臉，反而你對自己做的事情是不是要好好的想一下，有哪一些事情做得真的讓人家不滿意？那大家坐下來看怎麼好好的把這個結解開，在解開之後自然就沒罷免了嘛！那時候我們私底下也在聊，如果總預算的刪減是民眾不滿的原因，因為惡意的亂刪，全部這樣子亂砍，那就在覆議的時候好好來談，再花一點時間把總預算處理好，適當的刪減，大家就會給你鼓掌。結果他也不要啊！連讓院長來立法院報告都不要啊！只用1天就把這個案子表決通過了。財劃法也是一樣，你這個越綁越緊，就是硬要火車對撞嘛！","所以我在這個地方誠懇地呼籲，過去這個東西是有制度的，我們是有財政紀律的，你對預算的處理應該用過去的方法，先由行政院考量整個社會的狀況，認為有必要的話，就提一個特別條例送來立法院，經立法院對特別條例審查的結果，再根據這個結果來編列預算，送本院審議，在通過之後再來處理，這樣才是正辦，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是，我跟委員報告，我們目前的作法就是，如果實徵數超過預算數的話，我們是先還債，減少舉債，如果還有多的，那麼就是移到歲計賸餘，那歲計賸餘的運用就要看我們的施政優先順序，比如說像民生、照顧弱勢或者是國防等等，由行政部門做通盤的考量。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，這個才是正辦，加油，要堅持啊！對的事情要堅持，不要被帶到錯的方向去了，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：好，謝謝吳秉叡委員。","我們接下來請賴士葆賴召委。"],["柯委員建銘：花錢買票。"],["主席：什麼買票？"],["柯委員建銘：因為大罷免所以要買票。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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請部長"},{"start":17.199,"end":46.622,"text":"但是主席在還沒開始之前我想確認一件事情因為我的提案也有第二條第六條十一條十五條二十四條三十五條四十七條七十四條七十五條還有七十八條之一還有八十條我本身的提案也已經進到我們委員會了只是我本身又多了一個五十二條比院版多了五十二條所以我是不是可以確認說我的部分"},{"start":47.222,"end":54.729,"text":"跟我們這一次今天所討論的也應該要並進來否則我的提案裡面也有第2條第6條11條15條24條35條47條74條75條78條之一還有80條"},{"start":62.97,"end":77.013,"text":"所以這個部分可以麻煩主席我說我的提案我自己本身電驗法有提案那我的提案也有第2條第6條11條15條24條35條47條74條75條還有78條之一還有80條"},{"start":83.735,"end":107.214,"text":"都有但是因為我多了一個52條那有關於這個店家可能大家比較爭議的部分所以這個不排進來我沒有意見但是呢前面這個跟院板一樣的是不是也應該併進來這個部分再麻煩主席採視一下要不然我的就在空中飛啊我怎麼在空中飛這個部分再拜託"},{"start":109.742,"end":132.952,"text":"這次的審查是以院版為主因為院版的比較沒爭議啦所以我不堅持啦就是說院版沒有爭議所以我的這一次沒有排進來那OK就是院版的先處理那我的部分另外就是說因為這裡面跟院版都沒有異議所以也應該要併進來謝謝"},{"start":136.013,"end":152.985,"text":"那我之後再看著因為我的已經都附委了已經在我們委員會了謝謝謝謝主席我要問一下部長請教一下部長就是說我們現在媒體一直在炒說電價4月就要開始凝長6%而且這個6%是會影響到民生物價喔部長這怎麼辦而且是904萬戶喔這非常嚴重喔"},{"start":165.959,"end":181.332,"text":"這怎麼辦報告委員我想這個您漲6%這個訊息應該是媒體報導我們不知道他是從哪裡來的訊息如果最後也是漲6%我們在內部的討論並沒有討論到這一條沒有討論到這一條沒有討論到這一條就我在主持的會議裡面"},{"start":193.769,"end":210.676,"text":"沒有這個6%這樣的一個案子部長因為我們要擔心的是說我們目前本來就是去年去年我們用追加但是現在沒有過在協商當中"},{"start":211.957,"end":228.172,"text":"追加要做撥補 由我們政府來做撥補的動作 沒過一千億然後在這一次 也一樣一千億 我們是要編列預算的是被直接刪掉這樣的一個缺口兩千億 兩千億耶"},{"start":231.363,"end":247.364,"text":"我覺得這個意見在當時候就大家都沒有意義就是要政府來撥補可是為什麼碰到政治議題又改變了我一直強調電價是民生經濟的議題不是政治的議題"},{"start":248.445,"end":261.955,"text":"所以現在面臨去年的追加1000億沒有過 還在空中飛然後在今年的1000億是直接被刪掉 這個怎麼辦然後現在媒體又傳出說 馬上4月要漲6%"},{"start":266.994,"end":287.556,"text":"那部長說沒有這個訊息好那最後如果真的這個缺口沒辦法電價審議委員會就給他大刀一砍那怎麼辦報告委員我想這個所謂的您剛才所指導的這個2000億的部分事實上我想政府本來就是有準備"},{"start":288.806,"end":310.755,"text":"那在這個我們這個經濟委員會各位委員也都非常的睿智只刪了我們30億我們委員會大家都沒有意見呢送到大園區以後才被刪掉的所以我們當然是非常的這個難過因為這個事情基本上這個補助2000億的目的是在"},{"start":312.236,"end":328.016,"text":"讓我們台電的舉債的這個這個缺口能夠下降我們現在是負債4000多億嘛那下降2000億我們大概利息就會差了差不多50億這個部分是對我們來講在財務上面有很大的這個這個"},{"start":330.641,"end":348.954,"text":"補助讓我們台電的同仁也比較有信心說政府有在照顧他們不然的話他們你看看颱風來他們半夜都要去這個救災做了半死結果呢這個政府的好意要到這個要來補助我們台電的財務情況"},{"start":351.005,"end":361.949,"text":"這怎麼辦啦如果這樣的話大家擔心的是這後續如果真的漲了電價所影響的是物價而且現在大家越講是越明喔連%數都出來了好 這怎麼辦所影響的部分這可能更多喔"},{"start":368.932,"end":395.533,"text":"我個人是沒有收到這樣的一個方向的資訊那麼這個坊間大家在推論的部分我也不知道是從哪裡來的部長我真的要拜託因為我們今天為了要省電源法時間有限我要拜託這個電價民生的電價真的不能動一動下去連我們說的物價非漲上去我告訴你漲上去之後就回不來了"},{"start":396.474,"end":415.04,"text":"民生物價真的民生物價關鍵在這個店的問題所以真的我們民生的店價不能漲是這個部分部長我要拜託充分的這個考慮這個真的要拜託還有你剛剛有講到一點就是說台電員工的福利"},{"start":416.243,"end":418.364,"text":"就像你說的 套房落戶 風台廳 人在休息 人在第一算 要去清修 要去做回鄉的工作但是他們的福利其實一直都沒有很大的增加"},{"start":431.448,"end":447.799,"text":"所以雖然我們部長有說我們國營事業明年也會隨著軍公教條件3%但是目前其實我們很久沒動了所以國營事業起薪都3萬出頭啊所以這個部分其實已經有很大的gap"},{"start":448.96,"end":467.71,"text":"這部分要怎麼去把它做一個調整還有就是技術有一些我們看到的有證照的這些技術工我們要怎麼增加他的福利要不然技術工都是第一時間套房就好 一定都要出去因為都要技術工因為如果當電的時候沒電的時候燒下來 電線燒下來這部技術工是沒辦法的"},{"start":476.365,"end":489.603,"text":"被管被給這個部分也應該給他們有一個好的保障所以包括他們的意外險等等我覺得這都是我們應該來協助的所以部長這個部分"},{"start":491.525,"end":519.655,"text":"我是覺得我們通常看到他們這麼辛苦我們都希望用很多撥補的動作來協助把這個gap這個缺口把它彌平下來可是我覺得我們這兩千億我們不要管這兩千億了第一點我們的店價民生店價不能漲第二我們台電的員工他的薪水福利一定要兼顧要照顧要做好謝謝我們會來努力好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時47分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請部長？"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是主席，在還沒開始之前，我想確認一件事情，因為我的提案也有第二條、第六條、第十一條、第十五條、第二十四條、第三十五條、第四十七條、第七十四條、第七十五條、第七十八條之一還有第八十條，我本身的提案也已經進到我們委員會了，只是我本身又多了一個第五十二條，比院版多了第五十二條，所以我是不是可以確認說我的部分跟我們這一次今天所討論的也應該要併進來？否則我的提案裡面也有第二條、第六條、第十一條、第十五條、第二十四條、第三十五條、第四十七條、第七十四條、第七十五條、第七十八條之一還有第八十條，所以這個部分可以麻煩主席，主席，我說我的提案，我自己本身電業法也有提案，我的提案也有第二條、第六條、第十一條、第十五條、第二十四條、第三十五條、第四十七條、第七十四條、第七十五條、第七十八條之一還有第八十條，都有，但是因為我多了一個第五十二條，有關於電價可能大家比較爭議的部分，所以這個不排進來，我沒有意見，但是前面這個跟院版一樣的是不是也應該併進來？這個部分再麻煩主席裁示一下……"],["主席：好，我們再看怎麼處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，要不然我的就在空中飛啊！我的案子就在空中飛，這個部分再拜託。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：付委進來了嗎？"],["程主任秘書谷川：付委了。"],["陳委員亭妃：付了。"],["程主任秘書谷川：這一次的審查是以院版為主。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，以院版為主啦！"],["程主任秘書谷川：陳委員還有第五十二條，跟院版不一樣，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！院版的比較沒爭議，所以我不堅持啦，就是說院版沒有爭議，所以我的這一次沒有排進來那OK，就是院版的先處理，我的部分另外……就是說因為這裡面跟院版都沒有異議，所以也應該要併進來，謝謝。"],["主席：好，那我之後再看怎麼……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，因為我的已經都付委了，已經在我們委員會了，謝謝。"],["主席：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝主席。我要請教一下部長，現在媒體一直在吵說電價4月開始擬漲6%，而且這個6%是會影響到民生物價喔！部長，這怎麼辦？而且是904萬戶喔！非常嚴重喔！這怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，擬漲6%這個訊息應該是媒體報導啦！我們不知道他是從哪裡來的訊息。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是如果最後也是漲6%呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在內部的討論並沒有討論到這一條。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有討論到這一條？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有討論到這一條，就我主持的會議裡面沒有6%這樣的案子。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，因為我們要擔心的是，本來去年我們用追加，但是現在沒有過，在協商當中追加要做撥補，由政府來做撥補的動作，沒過1,000億；然後這次也一樣，1,000億我們是要編列預算的被直接刪掉，這樣的缺口2,000億耶！2,000億耶！當時候大家都沒有異議就是要政府來撥補，可是為什麼碰到政治議題又改變了？我一直強調電價是民生經濟議題，不是政治議題，所以現在面臨去年的追加1,000億沒有過，還在空中飛，今年的1,000億是直接被刪掉，這該怎麼辦？然後現在媒體又傳出馬上4月要漲6%，部長說沒有這個訊息。最後如果真的這個缺口沒辦法，電價審議委員會就大刀一砍，那怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才所指導2,000億的部分，事實上政府本來就是有準備嘛！在經濟委員會，各位委員也都非常睿智，只刪了我們30億，但是送到大院以後……"],["陳委員亭妃：我們委員會大家都沒有意見啊！"],["郭部長智輝：送到大院以後才被刪掉的，所以我們當然是非常難過啦！因為這個事情基本上補助2,000億的目的是讓台電舉債的金額……"],["陳委員亭妃：缺口。"],["郭部長智輝：能夠下降，我們現在是負債四千多億，下降2,000億大概利息就會差了差不多50億，這個部分對我們在財務上面有很大的補助，讓台電同仁也比較有信心，覺得政府有在照顧他們。不然的話你看看颱風來，他們半夜都要去救災，做得半死，結果政府的好意要來補助台電的財務情況……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！部長，這怎麼辦啦？如果這樣的話，大家擔心的是，後續如果真的漲了電價所影響的是物價喔！而且現在大家越講越明，連百分比都出來了，這怎麼辦？所影響的部分可能更多喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我個人是沒有收到這樣一個方向的資訊，那麼坊間大家在推論的部分我也不知道是從哪裡來的。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我真的要拜託，因為我們今天為了要審電業法，時間有限，我要拜託民生電價真的不能動，一動下去，所有物價就飛漲上去，我告訴你，漲上去之後就回不來了，民生物價真正關鍵在電的問題，所以真的民生電價不能漲。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分，部長，我要拜託！"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們會充分的考慮。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個真的要拜託，還有你剛剛有講到一點就是台電員工的福利，就像你說的，颳風下雨、颱風天，人在休息，他們在第一線要去搶修、要去做危險的工作，但是他們的福利其實一直都沒有很大的增加，雖然部長有說國營事業明年也會隨著軍公教調薪3%，目前真的很久沒動了，國營事業起薪都是3萬出頭，這個部分其實已經有很大的gap，這部分要怎麼去調整？還有就是技術，有些我們看到有證照的這些技術工要怎麼增加他的福利，要不然技術工都是颳風下雨第一時間一定都要出去，因為那些都要技術工，如果斷電、沒電的時候、電線被吹落，要爬高、爬低，沒有技術工是沒辦法的，這個部分也應該給他們一個好的保障，包括他們的意外險等等都是我們應該來協助的。所以部長，我們通常看到他們這麼辛苦，都希望用很多撥補的動作來協助把這個gap、缺口弭平下來，可是我覺得這2,000億……我們不要管這2,000億了。第一點，民生電價不能漲。第二點，台電員工的薪水福利一定要兼顧，要照顧、要做好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會來努力。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝亭妃委員，等一下再來跟委員討論法案怎麼處理。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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最近如果再漲就已經是第五次了"},{"start":31.26,"end":52.999,"text":"如果再漲電價 對民生衝擊很大小吃店啦 一些商家 甚至可能連便當都要大幅漲價了然後對工商業發展衝擊也會很大一些企業啦 對不對 你以前從企業來嘛光是電價一上來 對很多企業影響就很大 真的要再上第五次的電價嗎"},{"start":54.841,"end":65.503,"text":"報告委員我想如果說我們用比較這個科學理性的方法來討論的話我們必須要知道說電價對它所佔的比率有多少"},{"start":67.099,"end":89.024,"text":"所以影響的這個變數有多少然後影響的金額有多少我想不至於因為每一個產業不會一樣那我們當然會把這樣的狀況因為我們這一次的電價審議委員裡面也有這個工業總會的代表也有商業總會的代表我想他們會充分的"},{"start":89.744,"end":108.518,"text":"反映給所有的這個委員就這個委員您所關注的這個命題我想他們會去討論但是經濟部只能夠這按照他審議委員會的這樣的一個結論我們來執行部長最可憐的是人民了一般的民眾"},{"start":110.677,"end":129.447,"text":"以後整個物價的那個一定是推升了嘛對不對人民就等於是受到很大的一個衝擊以後去買東西就變貴了嘛等於是薪水沒有漲可是呢薪水被這個物價上漲又吃掉被電價吃掉了然後影響到我們的工商業那另外你剛剛提了一個點所以我呼籲菩薩為因啦眾生為果"},{"start":134.623,"end":147.83,"text":"漲電價這個惡果一直在漲已經漲了40次第五次要再漲這個惡果應該去看那個原因在什麼地方啊你剛講說那經濟部經濟部當然有責任啊電價為什麼會漲就是你的能源政策跟你的能源結構影響了電價嘛"},{"start":150.874,"end":162.593,"text":"電價審慮委員會要審的時候你如果你每次都是用最便宜的核電不用最貴的這個綠電拼命買又出現一些必要買太貴有這兩個原因那當然就會漲啊"},{"start":163.792,"end":191.028,"text":"所以經濟部很有責任啊經濟部你要菩薩為因你要去知道那個因對不對你要回過頭去想說現在全世界人家為什麼都要重新用核電最穩定最便宜嘛那你只要做了這個事情就不用漲電價啦而且全世界都在做連美國AIT的處長都跟你講我們可以幫台灣那你不做這個惡果當然人民就會覺得經濟部沒有盡到責任或者賴清德總統沒有盡到責任這是第一個嘛第二個綠電來我們看一下"},{"start":192.894,"end":215.888,"text":"這個是電價審議委員會的一個成員啦也是我們商總的理事長許書寶開會的時候他應該就要在場啦他說什麼就是我剛剛講要去找那個原因出來嘛對不對你如果原因把它處理好就像生病一樣你如果是因為核電的問題是因為綠電問題你把它處理好那就不用漲電價搞不好還可以降喔你看許書寶怎麼說探究台電的這個成本結構啊許書寶說沒錢看出來啊台電今年大概虧損414億"},{"start":222.717,"end":243.995,"text":"主要來自於哪裡 加大對綠能的採購 增加了因為綠電的問題 至少都增加了300億的虧損解決綠電的問題啊 綠電我已經提了好幾次啊你買的太貴這是一個原因 你想辦法把價格降下來更重要你現在馬上在做 你現在已經在賣RE30嘛 對不對"},{"start":245.868,"end":250.629,"text":"30你現在綠電開始賣啊加快速度現在不是漲電價你只要加快賣綠電的這個速度你是5、6塊買的你現在都是用髒電30塊賣出去當然虧損300億、400億就出來了你趕快把綠電如期賣出去讓我們的企業可以買到綠電"},{"start":262.791,"end":286.7,"text":"這個台電不要虧損就不要漲電價三年啊報告委員我想這個需求跟供應才是正相關我想價格是決定於需求跟供應之間我們當然希望供應這個R1-30但是如果需求沒有那麼大我還是沒有辦法供應給它因為這個電它有需要才會來跟我們購買今天上次不就開口說需要110度的這個地電嗎"},{"start":291.723,"end":297.066,"text":"現在很多企業都來請你找出那個100億度的客戶給你你找他來給我啊我一定賣給他啊問題是這個100億度的這個是假的命題假命題我們不用討論假命題就是很多企業確實需要綠電嘛"},{"start":321.123,"end":324.812,"text":"麻煩委員直接告訴我我一定拿去給他"},{"start":325.835,"end":353.268,"text":"所以你要加速嘛這也是你的責任當然當然你現在目前我統計你的每年買300億度的綠電進來你只賣出去10%當然太少啊你現在要賣就要趕快我的意思就是你應該是加快賣綠電的速度這個金額你只要收入增加沒有時間過了來只要收入增加只要收入增加當然就不要漲這個人民的電費嘛對不對等一下我問一下這是不是很大投資台電是不是要虧另外一個洞出來了看看"},{"start":354.431,"end":379.49,"text":"我們最近啊 跟美國阿拉斯加天然氣開發公司簽約我看部長你也在場嘛 對不對上面也有你嘛是說要合作啊 不只買他們的天然氣合作要建造一條價值440億美金的出油管道476是多少錢台電要出多少錢"},{"start":383.241,"end":402.304,"text":"我們還沒有決定 我們是意向書 意向書如果用440億的一半 220億美金就是6600億喔台電 台當然是意向書 可是我現在提醒台電不要挖一個大黑洞 你看台電能用少一點 少一千億 綠電600億你這個基本假設又是不存在的"},{"start":412.647,"end":424.88,"text":"我們簽意向書不是只有我買他50分的不可能嘛這個是美國的東西他要賣給日本賣給台灣要賣給韓國甚至賣到菲律賓我怎麼可能占50%我現在不是說賣天然氣天然氣的那個天然氣的輸油管道"},{"start":431.258,"end":451.556,"text":"這一條價值要建造要440億美金我現在在提醒你我的訊息440億是天然氣而不是這個油管所以您的這個資訊是不是要再correct一下這是你們的會長親你們政府的媒體自由時報下來的"},{"start":455.259,"end":472.435,"text":"那不管是輸油管或是你剛說的這個要去挖天然氣我們要投資4400億的多少錢我現在只是提醒啦投資當然是可以的可是這個金額看起來很嚇人喔如果是像這個440億裡面兩邊要合作對不對你如果要一半的話220億的美金就是六千六百億喔"},{"start":475.342,"end":503.42,"text":"我們一年的總預算才三兆欸我們台積電已經去投資了1000億美金你那個假設是過度的啦不可能的事啦所以差不多多少不可能50萬我們現在要我們要投資多少也是人家對方同意啊而且這裡面牽扯到其他的鄰國他們也都需要所以不是說你要50%部長那你意向說跟人家簽了裡面不管是你剛剛在講的挖天然氣或者是這個輸油管"},{"start":503.88,"end":514.291,"text":"你到底要出多少錢 你都沒有一個沒有一個比較細膩算過沒有財務的算過你就簽了這個報告委員這一個案子是2031年以後才會發生的"},{"start":516.708,"end":536.884,"text":"你簽個意向書你都要簽之前都沒有先做才有表示我們這個是有興趣我們可以支持他這個遊景去開發這個是我們現在的意向嘛至於投資多少錢不是契約這個是意向書所以我跟委員報告就是契約跟意向書是不一樣的"},{"start":537.404,"end":566.622,"text":"現在意向書先簽嘛對不對可是兩邊要進一步的談然後要先做參與安顧嘛你剛剛這個你的圖片拍得非常好啊上面寫投資意向書嘛不是寫投資契約書嘛那你都已經簽了意向書上面沒有金額上面沒有金額我跟委員報告就是沒有金額現在就是公佈出來美國在講說光是這個輸油管道就要440億啊那你講的又是另外的錢我現在是在提醒啦導出當然可以不過金額都很大好不好"},{"start":567.082,"end":570.749,"text":"不要又挖了一個大洞不要挖了一個大洞你又賠錢這個是貿易條件嘛我們你說我買的話還是大萬價"},{"start":578.968,"end":601.455,"text":"我們買的是大案價你現在簽了意向書裡面有牽扯到可能要投資多少錢你們這部份應該是有評估沒有啦那沒有的話至少至少比較進一步的時候一定要做財務評估報告委員我們不方便在這裡跟你報告這些鉅細靡遺的事情啦我真的很抱歉這裡面牽扯到什麼整理人道事件出去怎麼當然會你如果要知道你要知道那麼你拒絕我就跟你報告"},{"start":602.355,"end":619.247,"text":"好不好來報告啦這個應該是公開的要讓全民知道啦好不好我們希望這個投資是賺錢的不要投資又賠錢發生以後一定會報告如果有進度隨時報告好不好不過要提醒的是不要進去又花了很多錢然後到時候要找人給錢給他一定要慎重好不好投資是要賺錢的要注意好不好好 大家好 來 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時37分）請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，過去3年電價已經漲了4次，最近如果再漲，就是第5次了。如果再漲電價，對民生衝擊很大，包括小吃店、一些商家，甚至可能連便當都要大幅漲價了。對於工商業發展衝擊也會很大，包括一些企業，對不對？你從企業來，光是電價一上來，對很多企業影響就很大，所以真的要再漲第5次的電價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果我們用比較科學、理性的方法來討論的話，我們必須要知道電價對它所占的比率有多少，所以影響的變數有多少、影響的金額有多少，我想不至於……因為每一個產業不會一樣，我們當然會把這樣的狀況……因為這次的電價審議委員裡面有工業總會的代表，也有產業總會的代表，我想他們會充分地反映給所有的委員，就委員您所關注的命題，我想他們會去討論，但是經濟部只能夠按照審議委員會的結論來執行。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，最可憐的是人民、一般的民眾，以後整個物價一定是推升的，對不對？人民就等於受到很大的衝擊，尤其買東西就變貴了，等於是薪水沒有漲，可是薪水被物價上漲又吃掉、被電價吃掉了，也影響到我們的工商業。另外，你剛剛提到了一個點，所謂菩薩畏因，眾生畏果，漲電價這個惡果一直在漲，已經漲了4次，第5次要再漲這個惡果，應該去看那個原因在什麼地方。你剛剛講到經濟部，經濟部當然有責任，電價為什麼會漲？就是你的能源政策跟能源結構影響了電價。電價審議委員會在審的時候，每次最便宜的核電都不用，最貴的綠電拚命買，又出現一些弊案，買太貴，有這兩個原因，當然就會漲啊！所以經濟部很有責任，經濟部要想到菩薩畏因，要知道那個因，對不對？你要回過頭去想現在全世界人家為什麼都要重新用核電，最穩定、最便宜嘛！那你只要做了這個事情就不用漲電價啦！而且全世界都在做，連美國AIT的處長都跟你講，我們可以幫臺灣，那你不做，這個惡果當然人民就會覺得經濟部沒有盡到責任，或者賴清德總統沒有盡到責任，這是第一個嘛！","第二個，綠電，來，我們看一下，這個是電價審議委員會的一個成員，也是我們商總的理事長許舒博，開會的時候他應該就要在場，他說什麼？就是我剛剛講的，要去找那個原因出來嘛！對不對？你說原因把它處理好，就像生病一樣，如果是因為核電的問題、是因為綠電問題，你把它處理好，那就不用漲電價，搞不好還可以降喔！你看許舒博怎麼說？探究台電的成本結構，許舒博說就目前看起來的資料，台電今年大概虧損414億，主要來自於哪裡？加大對綠能的採購，增加了，因為綠電的問題，至少都增加了300億的虧損。所以部長，解決綠電的問題啊！綠電我已經提了好幾次啊！你買得太貴就是一個原因，你想辦法把價格降下來。更重要你現在馬上在做，你現在已經在賣RE30嘛！對不對？RE30你現在綠電開始賣啊，加快速度，現在不是漲電價，你只要加快賣綠電的速度，你是5、6塊買的，你現在都用髒電3、4塊賣出去，當然虧損300億、400億就出來了啊，你趕快把綠電如期賣出去，讓我們的企業可以買到綠電，台電不要虧損就不要漲電價，三贏啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想需求跟供應才是正相關啦！我想價格是決定於需求跟供應之間，我們當然希望供應RE30，但是如果需求沒有那麼大，我還是沒有辦法供應給它，因為它有需要這個電才會來跟我們購買。"],["張委員啓楷：本席上次不就開口說需要100億度的綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對不起，委員……"],["張委員啓楷：對不對？很多企業都來陳情說現在買不到。"],["郭部長智輝：請你找出100億度的客戶給我。"],["張委員啓楷：那些人需要綠電嘛！它回來也需要綠電嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，你找它來給我啊！我一定賣給它啊！"],["張委員啓楷：很多企業都來陳情，都需要綠電嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：但是問題是這個100億度是假的命題……"],["張委員啓楷：不過至少它需要綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：我們不用討論假命題……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦，部長，這是重點，就是很多企業確實需要綠電嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定會……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要加快……"],["郭部長智輝：如果今天有綠電的需求而買不到我的綠電，麻煩委員直接告訴我，我一定拿去給它。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要加速嘛！這也是你的責任。"],["郭部長智輝：當然、當然。"],["張委員啓楷：目前我統計你每年買300億度的綠電進來，你只賣出去10%，當然太少啊，你現在要賣就要趕快，我的意思就是你應該是加快賣綠電的速度，這個金額……你只要收入增加……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我是不是讓台電董事長跟你報告一下？"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，時間過了，來，只要收入增加，當然就不要漲人民的電費嘛！對不對？第二個，我問一下，這是不是一個很大的投資？台電是不是要挖另外一個洞出來了？看一下，我們最近跟美國阿拉斯加天然氣開發公司簽約，我看部長你在場嘛！對不對？照片上面有你嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：說要合作啊，不只買他們的天然氣，合作要建造一條價值440億美金的輸油管管道，440億是多少錢？台電要出多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦，台電要出多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還沒有決定，我們是意向書。"],["張委員啓楷：意向書。"],["郭部長智輝：要投資多少要以後再算。"],["張委員啓楷：如果用440億的一半，220億美金就是6,600億喔，台電……"],["郭部長智輝：你想要買50%……"],["張委員啓楷：當然意向書，可是我現在提醒，台電挖了一個大黑洞……"],["郭部長智輝：不可能。"],["張委員啓楷：你看核電沒用，一年少1,000億……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你這個基本假設……"],["張委員啓楷：綠電六百多億，這邊是……"],["郭部長智輝：這個基本假設又是不存在的。"],["張委員啓楷：這個意向書了，不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們簽意向書不是只有我買它50%，不可能嘛！這個是美國的東西，它要賣給日本、賣給臺灣，要賣給韓國，甚至賣到菲律賓，我怎麼可能占50%啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在不是說賣天然氣啦！部長，天然氣的輸油管道，建造這一條要440億美金，我現在在提醒你……"],["郭部長智輝：不是啦，報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我在提醒你……"],["郭部長智輝：我的訊息，440億是挖天然氣而不是這個油管，所以您的資訊是不是要再correct一下？"],["張委員啓楷：這是非常親你們政府的媒體──自由時報寫的耶！自由時報的新聞有問題是不是？好，不管是輸油管或者你剛剛說的要去挖天然氣，我們要投資4,400億的多少錢？我現在只是提醒啦，投資當然是可以的，可是金額看起來很嚇人喔，如果是像這個440億裡面兩邊要合作對不對？如果一半就要220億的美金，就是6,600億喔！我們一年的總預算才3兆，我們台積電……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你那個假設……"],["張委員啓楷：台積電已經去投資了1,000億美金……"],["郭部長智輝：你那個假設是過度的啦，不可能的事情啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以差不多多少？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能50%。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在意向……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要投資多少也是要對方同意啊，而且這裡面牽扯到其他的鄰國，他們也都需要，所以不是說你要50%它就可以同意……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，那你意向書跟人家簽了裡面，不管是你剛剛在講的挖天然氣或者是輸油管，你到底要出多少錢？你都沒有一個比較細膩算過、沒有財務的算過就簽了啊？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一個案子是2030年以後才會發生的。"],["張委員啓楷：你簽個意向書，要簽之前都沒有先做財務評估嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：表示我們對這個是有興趣，我們可以支持它這個油井去開發，這個是我們現在的意向嘛！至於投資多少錢，不是契約，這個是意向書，所以我跟委員報告，就是契約跟意向書是不一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：現在意向書先簽嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是先簽意向書。"],["張委員啓楷：可是兩邊要進一步地談，然後要先做財務評估嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！你看看這個，你的圖片拍得非常好啊，上面寫投資意向書嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是寫投資契約書嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：你在上面嘛！那你都已經簽了意向書，當然有一定的進度嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：上面沒有金額，我跟委員報告，就是沒有金額。"],["張委員啓楷：現在就是公布出來，美國在講說光是輸油管管道就要440億，那你講的又是另外的錢，我現在是在提醒，投資當然可以，不過金額都很大，好不好？不要又挖了一個大洞，不要挖了大洞以後賠錢，台電賠錢又要漲我們電價，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，這個是貿易條件嘛！你說我為什麼要付這些錢？我買的話還是到岸價啊！我們買的是到岸價。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在簽了意向書，裡面有牽扯到可能要投資多少錢，你們經濟部已經開始有評估……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！這個我們不方便……"],["張委員啓楷：那沒有的話，至少進一步的時候一定要做財務評估。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們不方便在這裡跟你報告這些巨細靡遺的事情啦，這個很抱歉，這裡面牽扯到……"],["張委員啓楷：這是我們人民的納稅錢，出去怎麼……"],["郭部長智輝：當然會，你如果要知道，麻煩你具結，我就跟你報告，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：不只來報告啦，這個應該是公開的，要讓全民知道，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：不是啦！還沒有發生……"],["張委員啓楷：我們希望這個投資是賺錢的，不要投資又賠錢。"],["郭部長智輝：發生以後一定會報告，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：好，如果有進度隨時報告，不過我要提醒的是不要進去又花了很多錢……"],["主席：未來有進度再讓……"],["張委員啓楷：到時候又漲人民的電價，一定要慎重，好不好？投資是要賺錢的，要注意，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝張啓楷委員。","我們現在請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","陳培瑜","黃國昌","葉元之","林德福","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「電業法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員賴士葆等 17 人擬具\n「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「電業法第六條條文修\n正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員\n邱議瑩等16人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；六、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「電業法\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143101_00001"}}},{"id":"159536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc096f0d3af38e3ac29be2be2b26df085f97b033ce60c83815f9a2554e42ef972245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:37:39 - 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還稅於民 普花炫金為什麼因為他不是每一年都一定每一年不是每一年都有反過來因為今天就是定的他是要達到一個門檻那反過來如果難看"},{"start":232.853,"end":248.933,"text":"前幾年又為何能夠花三倍券六千元的現金呢那是針對特別疫後的一個情況來做一個考量而且當初的一個經濟成長情況也不是很好所以那時候我們就為了加強"},{"start":249.754,"end":274.867,"text":"或提升經濟的一個成長所有而花放一個現金所以這是有特殊的目的而且每一項的一個政策的施行它優先順序每一年排列的情緒都不一樣而且如果我們把它定了沒有彈性以後將來再執行就會有它是達到一個程度啊不是沒有彈性啊主計長從公司的經營角度來看經營者心中"},{"start":276.109,"end":300.486,"text":"要很在乎股東的財富那股利則是由內部經營者對未來整個成長與風險的思維來作為判斷所以如果不景氣而賺不到成長的差價對股息的期望會較高那本席認為說整個國家經營也是如此"},{"start":301.627,"end":308.48,"text":"數十年的整個國家發展到現在近二十多年來貧富差距極端化"},{"start":309.434,"end":333.251,"text":"那戶人少而集中 中產階級扁平化窮盲族根本看不到能夠好轉的未來那近平各種弱勢族群嗷嗷待哺那請問主席長 人民看到政府稅收超增難道不會有所期待嗎 你看呢"},{"start":334.011,"end":334.091,"text":"主席長"},{"start":363.866,"end":384.428,"text":"好比公司賺錢不發鼓勵給股東一樣如果股東經濟條件變好其實公司不發鼓勵本席認為對鼓勵的期待心理也不會太高反過來經濟條件變差人民這幾年持續面對高房價"},{"start":385.868,"end":403.384,"text":"通盆高物價甚至連便當小吃都快翻倍的漲價那我請問主席長民眾對於還稅移民普發現金的期待難道不也是對政府經營有成投下贊成票的回饋嗎"},{"start":404.525,"end":419.638,"text":"你的看法呢這個就像一個公司的經營一樣啊跟委員報告回饋人民的一個方式有很多種我可以利用各種政策而且等於是說我有國防的需要我有"},{"start":420.739,"end":439.335,"text":"那個健保的一個需要或0到6歲各項的一個教育支出的一個需要這些的部分那個都有變預算嘛不是說沒有變預算沒有匡列啊政府不應該把普發現金看成好像一端才對"},{"start":440.516,"end":459.843,"text":"對不對就像一個公司的經營一樣對不對你公司經營有成當然股東就是希望你發股利配股息吧對不對這個整個國家的運作跟一個公司的經營幾乎就是翻版那個主席長不要有那種思維主席長"},{"start":460.703,"end":481.938,"text":"因為去年8月中旬公布112年家庭收支的調查結果顯示112年普發現金新台幣6000元的政策挹注下每戶可支配所得差距的倍數縮減為6.12倍你有沒有去瞭解尤其是對低所得"},{"start":482.859,"end":511.377,"text":"主的影響很大 低所得主喔 主計長本席借用前主計長朱澤民說過的話人民貧窮感確實政府責任較大既然普發現金可以拉近所得差距的倍數更對低所得主有大影響 那我請問主計長基於民眾的觀感是不是可以再考量一下普發現金的可行性"},{"start":513.979,"end":533.25,"text":"這個部分我免則上還必須要往上去牽扯往上牽 因為你就跟上級講這個就像一個公司的經營一樣不要那麼執著而且我剛剛有特別提到就是有很多低所得主他們的期待 主席長"},{"start":534.19,"end":553.943,"text":"上個禮拜央行召開第一季的理監事會議雖然主計總處曾說目前整個物價情勢相對平穩央行總裁也說根據以前電價調漲的弧度對CPI的影響對CPI有影響但影響不大那主計長去年底行政院召開"},{"start":554.824,"end":578.253,"text":"物價穩定小組會議啊敲定關鍵原物料降稅再延一季到3月底那我請問主計長你認為25日討論降稅措施退場的機率大不大大不大因為這個部分會我是沒去參加但是我是覺得是說要降稅應該是不會啦應該不會"},{"start":581.038,"end":598.726,"text":"要降稅 換句話說就是可能會截止就對了 是不是是 它一般它有降稅的部分會維持但是維持之後它還是要一直檢討檢討現況的一個情形然後再去決定哪些項目因為現在目前是還在討論當中還沒有做決定啦"},{"start":600.327,"end":614.541,"text":"因為有媒體報導基於國際情勢仍不穩定減稅措施會考量再延一季延到六月底那請問主計長國際情勢是不是考量降稅與火與物價穩定是唯一的因素嗎"},{"start":615.612,"end":630.6,"text":"因為國際情勢目前一向都還不是很穩定而且還沒有很明朗化所以目前這個部分還是要看整個一個狀況而且它一直隨時都在變所以這個部分我們也會去檢討按照去年底"},{"start":632.403,"end":653.569,"text":"這個穩定物價小組的決議這個研議政策退場必須整個國際農工原料價格趨緩那整個國內物價持續的趨穩而且未來展望這個維持穩定請問主席長你認為今年有沒有退場的可能性降稅的措施退場會不會"},{"start":656.243,"end":675.307,"text":"這個重新推升物價會不會好其實因為我們如果有電價有調漲那目前房租還有一些外食是有比較偏高但是其他都很穩定包括有一些國際油料的部分都是在低價裡面來盤選好謝謝謝謝林委員的質詢下一位請吳秉樂委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":240,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時37分）謝謝主席。請財政部莊部長、陳主計長，還有……"],["主席：莊部長沒有來，財政部就是阮次長。"],["林委員德福：請陳主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長，你好。請教主計長，因為財政部長說普發現金不宜常態化，是政府一直以來的主張。以您的立場，還稅於民、普發現金常態化、法制化，是不是根本沒有討論的空間？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上不支持這樣的法案。"],["林委員德福：原則上不支持？基於113年稅收實徵數優於預算數，但歸屬於中央政府的部分沒有比2022年高，財政部認定普發現金不宜常態化。請問你認為111年度政府普發現金6,000元的條件，是不是可以作為政府未來普發現金的門檻？怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初普發現金有它特殊的目的性，而且是因為預估疫後的消費成長率會衰退，我們為了加速振興，才特別擬具特別條例，送貴院審議，經過貴院審議之後，我們才回編預算，所以這個部分是我們希望能夠維持經濟成長的穩定。因為當初的經濟成長率才2.1%，我們希望它能夠持續成長，所以才發放現金。"],["林委員德福：我請問你，還是你認為稅收實徵數優於預算數，政府除了還債以外，根本沒有其他考量的空間，是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，我們目前有很多重大建設，譬如說國防……"],["林委員德福：重大建設都有編預算……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是我們都沒有……"],["林委員德福：你不要拉到那裡去。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為每一年它的先後次序排列得不一樣。"],["林委員德福：我知道。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以不能把它訂在法條裡面，否則將來執行會沒有彈性。"],["林委員德福：我請問你，財政部說稅收優於預期，要先減少舉債、優先還債，如果能累積到歲計賸餘，財源應用要考量國家的長遠發展。本席認為財政部的立場無可厚非，但是退一步來看，國家之於人民，好比股份有限公司之股東，我請問主計長，你認為中華民國是績優的成長股還是雞蛋水餃股，依您看呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然是績優股。"],["林委員德福：績優股，好。以國內的財政狀況來看，財報是好看還是難看？"],["陳主計長淑姿：看好！"],["林委員德福：所以是好看。那為什麼沒有辦法考量像發放股利一樣，還稅於民、普發現金？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它不是每一年都一定有賸餘，而且……"],["林委員德福：因為今天它是要達到一個門檻，反過來說，如果是所謂的難看，前幾年又為何能夠發三倍券、6,000元的現金呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是有特針對特別疫後的情況來做一個考量，而且當初的經濟成長情況也不是很好，所以那時候我們為了加強或提升經濟的成長而有發放現金，所以這是有特殊的目的，而且每一項政策的施行，其優先順序每一年排列的情形都不一樣，如果我們把它訂了、沒有彈性後，將來在執行上可能就會遭遇困難。"],["林委員德福：它是達到一個程度，不是沒有彈性。主計長，從公司的經營角度來看，經營者心中要很在乎股東的財富，股利則是由內部經營者對未來整個成長與風險的思維來作為判斷，所以如果不景氣而賺不到成長的差價，對股息的期望會較高，本席認為整個國家經營也是如此，數十年整個國家發展到現在，近二十多年來，貧富差距極端化，富人少而集中，中產階級扁平化，窮忙族根本看不到能夠好轉的未來，近貧、各種弱勢族群嗷嗷待哺。請問主計長，人民看到政府稅收超徵，難道不會有所期待嗎？你看呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：再跟委員報告，如果說我們今年稅收有超收，這個部分我們原則上會導入到賸餘去，經過審計部審定以後導入累積賸餘，我們再來再編列預算，就會將預算裡面對於民生相關的重要項目列為優先，這個部分並不一定要發放現金才叫做有利於民生，以上。"],["林委員德福：主計長，這好比公司賺錢不發股利給股東一樣，如果股東經濟條件變好，其實公司不發股利，本席認為對股利的期待心理也不會太高；反過來經濟條件變差，人民這幾年持續面對高房價、通膨、高物價，甚至連便當、小吃都快翻倍的漲價。我請問主計長，民眾對於還稅於民、普發現金的期待，難道不也是對政府經營有成投下贊成票的回饋嗎？你的看法呢？這個就像公司的經營一樣啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，回饋人民的方式有很多種，我可以利用各種政策，而且等於是說我有國防的需要、我有健保的需要、我有零到六歲各項教育支出的需要，這些部分……"],["林委員德福：那都有編預算，並不是沒有編預算、沒有匡列啊！本席認為，政府不應該把普發現金看成好像異端才對，就像公司的經營一樣，公司經營有成，當然股東就是希望你發股利、配股息，對不對？整個國家的運作跟公司的經營，幾乎就是翻版！主計長，不要有那種思維！","去年8月中旬公布112年家庭收支的調查，結果顯示112年普發現金新臺幣6,000元的政策挹注下，每戶可支配所得差距的倍數縮減為6.12倍，你有沒有去了解？尤其是對低所得組的影響很大。主計長，本席就用前主計長朱澤民說過的話，人民貧窮感確實政府責任較大，既然普發現金可以拉近所得差距的倍數，更對低所得組有大影響，那我請問主計長，基於民眾的觀感，是不是可以再考量一下普發現金的可行性？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們原則上還是必須往上簽呈。"],["林委員德福：你就跟上級講，這個就像公司的經營一樣，不要那麼執著，而且我剛剛有特別提到，就是有很多低所得組他們的期待。","主計長，上個禮拜，央行召開第一季的理監事會議，雖然主計總處曾說，目前整個物價情勢相對平穩；央行總裁也說，根據以前電價調漲的幅度對CPI是有影響，但影響不大，去年底行政院召開物價穩定小組會議，敲定關鍵原物料降稅再延一季到3月底。我請問主計長，你認為25日討論降稅措施退場的機率大不大？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個部分我是沒去參加，但是我是覺得說要降稅應該是不會啦！"],["林委員德福：換句話說，可能會截止就對了，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般有降稅的部分會維持，但是維持之後，還是要一直檢討現況的情形，然後再去決定哪些項目，因為目前還在討論當中，還沒有做決定。"],["林委員德福：因為有媒體報導，基於國際情勢仍不穩定，減稅措施會考量再延一季、延到6月底，請問主計長，國際情勢是不是考量降稅與否與物價穩定唯一的因素？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為國際情勢目前一向都還不是很穩定，而且還沒有很明朗化，所以目前這個部分還是要看整個的狀況，而且它一直、隨時都在變，所以這個部分我們也會去檢討。"],["林委員德福：按照去年底穩定物價小組的決議，研議政策退場必須整個國際農工原物料價格趨緩，整個國內物價持續的趨穩，而且未來展望是維持穩定。請問主計長，你認為今年有沒有退場的可能性？降稅措施的退場會不會重新推升物價？"],["主席：請簡短回答。"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果我們電價有調漲，還有目前的房租、一些外食價格是有比較偏高，但是其他都很穩定，包括一些國際油料的部分，都是在低價裡面來盤旋。"],["林委員德福：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員的質詢。下一位請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長部長有請委員長部長好根據最新統計與學者的研究指出我國的住宅市場長期就是存在資訊不透明"},{"start":26.375,"end":43.711,"text":"法令執行的落差還有租賃品質低落於供給不足等架構性的問題不僅是影響年輕人與弱勢族群的居住權益尤其是台北、新北、台中等"},{"start":44.591,"end":63.949,"text":"房价所得的比较高年轻人也难以负担购物高房价与低薪的矛盾使得很多人逼迫选择高房价或者还选择比较便宜但是又长时间的通勤"},{"start":65.09,"end":83.329,"text":"請教部長有沒有具體的方案不要讓我們居住正義淪為口號還如何加速推動租賃住宅的全面登錄謝謝委員的關心我們在今天的報告裡面其實已經有點出來第一個在內政部跟財政部就剛剛委員"},{"start":85.771,"end":108.476,"text":"很多委員所關心的譬如說提出胡蘿蔔或是提出棍子這樣的措施都有做精進但是現在比較大的麻煩就是說所謂的租賃市場要透明化的部分牽涉到的是個人的民間跟民間之間的契約那公權力比較不容易加進去也就是說我要求房東"},{"start":109.776,"end":123.246,"text":"你要公布你的租金那房客呢他也要求要做實價登錄但是他如果做不到或者是沒辦法做到的時候呢目前我們的法令或是法律基礎比較不容易那根據我們所公布出來的就是現在有72.7萬戶的這個租金補貼的這個部分的話目前比較會需要做經濟措施多的是弱於雙倍"},{"start":131.112,"end":136.736,"text":"那雙北的部分剛剛我們很多內政部跟財政部的官員對委員的質詢的時候已經有提出一些改善的措施但是我們需要時間譬如說剛有提到如果我們要把這個所謂的公共設施或者是所謂的這個外加的這個情形列進去的話在我們行政院的消保費的定型化契約並沒有包含在內那還有一個就是地方政府呢對於我們現在已經有改善新的定型化契約他到底有沒有做到那這個呢我們在地政司呢做專案查核的時候呢會把它列進去"},{"start":161.653,"end":171.286,"text":"看到很多的實質都是報告如果是很多實質我們有提供數據給大家參考要去修法所以我們才根據在2023年的房價所得"},{"start":176.773,"end":178.674,"text":"高達9.72在2024年更高漲了在10.082全台租金的指數就是穩定"},{"start":192.203,"end":198.467,"text":"不穩定的一直上升所以說我們看到的是這樣才說要去修法嘛如果是你都在做沒有人反應民眾就沒有收央的話所以我們就不會去修法了所以說許多那個住戶就是沒有揭露他的資訊不是說只有說房租沒有揭露就不足的話"},{"start":219.941,"end":240.762,"text":"雖然是說我們租賃的市場管理條例以規範實路登錄以資訊提供實証但是執行不足所以我們才是說希望考慮建立透明化的平台"},{"start":241.443,"end":262.686,"text":"或者有什么惩罚的还有就是说稽查的机制这样子的话才会让真正的我们的民众有保障我们希望的是实际的不是报告的因为如果你们报告有效的话网络或者是说其他人就不会去申诉了是不是这样"},{"start":264.997,"end":282.835,"text":"這邊向委員報告一下有關於租屋透明化的部分第一個有關於現在仲介如果沒核的租賃案件或是轉租業者的轉租案件這個都要做實價登錄那第二個部分的話我們也透過一個租金補貼資料來公布一個租金的統計讓民眾來做一個知道"},{"start":283.564,"end":301.763,"text":"那這是第一個部分那第二個部分有關於租客的權益保障的部分有關於糾紛的部分我們現在也在推動法服的部分來提供民眾的一個租屋糾紛的諮詢那以現在來講的話每個月大概會有400件的一個諮詢量這個對民眾的幫助是非常大以上報告"},{"start":303.337,"end":319.609,"text":"是但是我們現在我們台灣大部分我們都是個人房東所以也缺雜的企業化還有就是管理的機制所以我們希望就是這樣子的品質不穩定落差太大"},{"start":320.109,"end":324.47,"text":"才會造成很多的一些問題反而就是說我們在日本我們看到的就是我們的業者還有大東就是建託大東建託的集團在日本他們就關於就是說積水住屋或者積房的管理"},{"start":343.676,"end":346.318,"text":"他們用這樣子的機制所以我們希望我們台灣要有一些就是企業化的管理還有專業的進入這樣市場才能達到就是不同的地方因為剛才你回的其他的委員就說地方跟中央啊怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣這樣就是因為我們沒有真正的實際的登錄還有就是我們的"},{"start":370.692,"end":375.396,"text":"規劃的管理才會造成很多的黑市不透明的資訊嘛"},{"start":377.443,"end":404.91,"text":"所以我們希望說要不管是說租屋或者是包租代管這個部分我們要有不同的策略才能達到我們的人民的需求沒有的話這樣子沒有考慮到這個我們就是說我們要做但是不管任何的公司也好政府也好所以我們一定要依照我們的法令要怎麼樣去訂一些機制"},{"start":406.87,"end":426.121,"text":"像是我们的租赁租债管理业者的登录的制度在我们在2021年的时候就是有立法模式就是租赁租债管理业法所以这个是落实的吗我们想要的是落实的吗"},{"start":428.464,"end":456.604,"text":"這邊跟委員報告委員有特別關心租賃條例有關於向日本的一個專業管理的部分那我們從106年制定那一個租賃條例就引進包租代管的制度現在全國大概有1782家的業者那也有2萬個一個已經測驗合格的一個管理員那這個對於租屋市場有非常的幫助大的幫助那現在已經包租代管的案件到現在已經有22萬戶其實在租屋市場裡面是佔一個非常大的比例"},{"start":457.004,"end":463.41,"text":"講得很好但是呢依據我們全球的房地產的調查我們國家的租金報酬率約2.09%屬於至是極差的等級在低報酬情況下許多就是我們的物主寧可就是放空就是要導致就是高房價還有空屋率"},{"start":485.608,"end":496.018,"text":"這個部分所以你講的是很好但是為什麼大家去調查就會這樣所以我們政府就是要你出說我們要如何提升就是雙方的"},{"start":499.011,"end":516.966,"text":"幼嬰這樣子的政策不管是屋主願意提供或者我們的租屋我們要去租的我們的年輕人還有弱勢高齡因為現在很多高齡他們去租屋很多房東是不願意給他們租"},{"start":518.247,"end":539.802,"text":"還有說家裡有小孩比較小他們也不太願意給他們租所以這樣子的機制管理的話對我們的弱勢者有什麼幫助這個部分我們也希望說我們內政部這邊要提出更落實的更便民的這樣子的機制才能達到我們的居住正義"},{"start":540.598,"end":547.03,"text":"的口號不要只是說叫做口號而已沒有真的是我們是很驕傲在我們台灣的這個租屋的問題"},{"start":552.983,"end":576.296,"text":"最後也麻煩一點時間跟我們回應第一個我們透過包租代管的話希望把市場由個人房東轉為專業管理那這個部分也可以加速一些空屋的一個釋出因為幫忙房東來做一些管理的動作那第二個部分的話現在社會我們的包租代管其實也有結合社宅的包租代管可以照顧到更多一個弱勢戶以上報告"},{"start":577.016,"end":579.958,"text":"所以我覺得我們現在最後給我一分鐘我們是要解決的問題就是我們要強化囤房稅還有就是房地合一的稅也減少就是投機炒作還有增加社會租宅的供給"},{"start":597.771,"end":612.768,"text":"还有保证我们的租屋的合理性还有申请门槛也是要公平改善就是租屋市场的范围也提升租屋的保障就是杜绝我们市场交易不合理的"},{"start":613.248,"end":622.012,"text":"去約這個是有很多的還有這是包含我們新住民他們是沒有身份證他們離婚了帶著小孩有的房東連租給他都沒有給連他們的要租了又沒辦法給他們設戶籍"},{"start":630.955,"end":653.604,"text":"這個也是一個很大的一些問題所以這個部分我們希望說我們要積極去推動不要說就是地方還有中央有落差七成也有落差像我們新加坡就是有族群的分別還有職業的分別還有不同的領域"},{"start":654.403,"end":665.895,"text":"來去做管理還有我們的族群來去分配我覺得說我們台灣要多去參考其他國家的才對我們的人民更有幫助以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時34分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。根據最新統計與學者的研究指出，我國的租賃住宅市場長期存在資訊不透明、法令執行的落差，還有租賃品質低落與供給不足等架構性的問題，不僅影響年輕人與弱勢族群的居住權益，尤其是臺北、新北、臺中等等，房價所得比高，年輕人也難以負擔，高房價與低薪的矛盾，使得很多人被迫選擇高房價，或者比較便宜的房子，但是卻需要長時間的通勤，請教部長，有沒有具體的方案，不要讓我們居住正義淪為口號，還有如何加速推動租賃住宅的全面登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，我們在今天的報告裡已經有點出來，第一個，在內政部跟財政部就剛剛很多委員所關心，譬如說提出胡蘿蔔或是棍子的措施都有作精進，但是現在比較大的麻煩就是所謂的租賃市場要透明化的部分，牽涉到民間跟民間之間的契約，公權力比較不容易加進去，也就是要求房東公布租金，那房客呢？也要求要做實價登錄，但是他如果做不到，或者沒辦法做到的時候，目前我們的法令或是法律基礎比較不容易。根據我們所公布出來的，現在有72.7萬戶租金補貼的部分，目前比較需要作精進措施都是落於雙北，那雙北的部分剛剛很多內政部跟財政部的官員針對委員的質詢，已經有提出一些改善的措施，但是我們需要時間，譬如剛有提到如果要把所謂的公共設施，或者外加的情形列進去的話，在行政院消保會的定型化契約並沒有包含在內，地方政府對於我們現在已經有改善新的定型化契約，它到底有沒有做到？我們地政司在做專案查核的時候會把它列進去，尤其會加強看雙北的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以因為我們沒有看到很多的實質，都是報告，如果是很多實質，就不會要去修法……"],["劉部長世芳：我們有提供數據給大家參考。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們根據2023年的房價所得比高達9.72，在2024年更是高漲到10.82，全臺租金的指數就是不穩定、一直上升，所以我們看到的情況是這樣才會說要修法，如果你都在做了，但沒有人反映、民眾沒有遭殃的話，我們就不會去修法。許多住戶就是沒有揭露他的資訊，不是只有房東資訊揭露不足，雖然我們的租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例已規範實價登錄與資訊提供時程，但就是資訊不足，所以我們才會說希望考慮建立透明化的平臺，或者有什麼懲罰、還有稽查的機制，這樣子才會真正讓我們的民眾有保障，我們希望的是實際的，不是報告的，因為如果你們報告有效的話，網路上或是其他人就不會去申訴了，是不是這樣？"],["林代理司長家正：向委員報告一下，有關於租屋透明化的部分，第一個有關於現在仲介如果媒合的租賃案件或是業者轉租案件，這個都要做實價登錄。再來，我們也透過租金補貼資料來公布租金統計，讓民眾來知道，這是第一個部分。第二個是租客權益保障，有關於糾紛的部分，我們現在也在推動法扶提供民眾租屋糾紛的諮詢，以現在來講，每個月大概會有400件的諮詢量，這個對民眾的幫助非常大，以上報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是現在我們臺灣大部分都是個人房東，所以也缺乏企業化還有管理的機制，所以這樣子的品質不穩定，落差太大，才會造成很多的問題。反而在日本，我們看到他們的業者像大東建託集團、積水住宅集團，他們用這樣子的機制，所以我們希望臺灣要有一些契約化的管理，還有讓專業進入市場，才能達到不同地方的需求，因為剛才你回答其他委員都是說地方跟中央怎麼樣、怎麼樣，就是因為我們沒有真正的實價登錄，還有就是規劃管理，才會造成很多的黑市、不透明的資訊。","所以我們希望不管是租屋或者是包租代管這個部分，我們要有不同的策略，才能達到我們人民的需求，如果沒有考慮到這個，我們只是說要做，但是不管任何公司也好、政府也好，我們一定要依照我們的法令看怎樣去訂一些機制，比如說租賃住宅管理業者登錄制度，日本在2021年時的立法模式就是租賃住宅管理業法，所以這個是能落實的嗎？我們想要的是能落實的嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：這邊跟委員報告，委員有特別關心租賃條例有關於像日本專業管理的部分，我們從106年制定那一個租賃條例就引進包租代管的制度，現在全國大概有1,782家業者，也有2萬個已經測驗合格的管理員，這個對於租屋市場有非常大的幫助，有關包租代管案件到現在已經有22萬戶，其實在租屋市場裡面是占一個非常大的比例。"],["麥委員玉珍：講得很好，但是依據全球房地產的調查，我們國家的租金報酬率約2.09%，屬於極差的等級，在低報酬的情況下，許多屋主寧可空置而導致高房價，還有空屋率這個部分，所以你講得雖然很好，但是為什麼大家去調查卻是這樣？所以我們政府就是要提出如何提升雙方誘因的政策，不管是屋主願意提供或者我們要去租屋的年輕人、還有弱勢、高齡，因為現在很多高齡去租屋，很多房東不願意租給他們，還有家裡有比較小的小孩，他們也不太願意租給他們，所以這樣子的管理機制，對我們的弱勢者有什麼幫助？這個部分我們也希望內政部這邊要提出更能落實的、更便民的機制，才能達到居住正義，而不僅是口號，要真正讓我們對於解決臺灣租屋問題而感到驕傲。"],["林代理司長家正：好，最後也麻煩一點時間給我們回應。第一個，我們透過包租代管的話，希望把市場由個人房東轉為專業管理，這個部分也可以加速一些空屋的釋出，因為幫忙房東來做一些管理的動作。第二個部分，現在我們的包租代管其實也有結合社宅的包租代管，可以照顧到更多弱勢戶，以上報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我覺得我們現在需解決的問題就是要強化囤房稅，還有房地合一的稅，也要減少投機炒作，還有增加社會住宅的供給，還有保證租屋的合理性，還有申請門檻也是要公平，改善租屋市場的範圍，也提升租屋的保障，杜絕市場交易不合理的契約，這個是有很多的。當然還有我們新住民，他們沒有身分證，他們離婚了帶著小孩，有的房東連租都不租給他，連他們要租了，又沒辦法給他們設戶籍，這個也是一些很大的問題，所以這個部分，我們希望你們要積極去推動，不要讓地方和中央有落差，基層也有落差。像新加坡就是有族群的分別，還有職業的分別，還有不同的領域來做管理，還有以族群去分配，我覺得我們臺灣要多去參考其他國家，對我們的人民更有幫助，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0a522be237375acfe8313c4daf57d80ad7b033ce60c83815f0f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:24:01 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謝謝"},{"start":142.586,"end":169.801,"text":"跟委員報告其實就有關這個稅率的部分事實上我們在陸陸續續都有找財政部談過那因為他會跟個人的免稅額其實扣抵的免稅額其實兩個是在一致的所以這個部分跟署長報告現在包租貸款的免稅額就是43%跟一般的出租人的可以扣除100塊他可以扣除43的費用等於說他57%的收入要繳稅可是公益出租人的部分"},{"start":171.423,"end":186.677,"text":"我再講一次包租代管的部分是可以扣到60%可以扣到60%所以他收到100塊只有40塊要繳稅可是公益出租人就是一些房東他的費用率只能扣40%跟一般的出租人一樣他要57%要繳稅"},{"start":189.7,"end":209.351,"text":"所以這樣子的問題是不是可以有一個盡快擬定的一個修法的進度應該這麼說因為原來在這個一萬五以下當然是不用那超過限額的部分那是必要是扣六十趴也跟人家講是不是比一般的公益出租人一般的房東要好那但是現在的狀態是說公益出租人是扣百分之十"},{"start":210.799,"end":236.022,"text":"43嘛 是包租代管才是扣最主要是房客的部分最主要是房客的部分他還有一個特別扣除額他那個上限那換算租金是一萬五所以我們是因為這樣兩個去比才定在這個一萬五那所以要修的話要兩邊一起調那兩邊一起調就會涉及到說這個一萬五如果放在雙北可能是比較偏低的"},{"start":236.542,"end":260.934,"text":"但是出了雙北它就變成是比較高的水準所以這個變成要不要變成因為可是這又是國稅所以它變成說在國稅的角度以下它很難去訂出一國兩制或一國多制的這樣的一個態度因為它不是地方稅所以是不是費用率兩邊都可以扣除60%有沒有機會調整成一制那個這可能要請財政部再來說明一下"},{"start":263.17,"end":290.058,"text":"跟委員報告當初社會住宅的費用率有60比較高是因為考量到說房東把房屋供這個包租代管他必須支付業者額外的管理費用或者是說他把住宅拿出來做特定用途啊譬如說這個社區長照或托育服務等等他的房東的費用比較高所以那時候是有考量這個因素給他比較高的費用率"},{"start":290.971,"end":313.873,"text":"所以還是沒有考慮說要修正嗎?因為他的房東的成本可能比...沒關係,這個會後我們再找時間來討論好不好第二個就是我相信很多委員都很關心的這個租屋市場黑市還是有在存在那剛剛其實已經有提供資料現在最大的缺口缺口最大的區域想不到在雙北"},{"start":314.514,"end":343.027,"text":"那所以我這邊要請教一下就是說現在剛剛我們講的現在台灣有這個包租代管跟公益出租人的部分就是很多這個房客有申請租屋補貼現在113年取得的有效的租業大概72.7萬筆在潛在的租屋市場規模大概是六成左右那我是不是想請教因為其實現在很多民眾他其實是可以看到一些租金的一些現在整個市場的一些租金的金額他是可以在這個實價登錄可以看到的"},{"start":343.587,"end":364.671,"text":"那我是不是可以拜託就是說現在整個業者現在都是一些出租業者他們有義務要去做這些租金的申報那是不是有機會就是我們有申請這個租金補貼這些公益出租人為了他所有的這些資料有沒有機會也在實價登錄上來去做一個申報因為我相信這中間還是有很大的一個落差"},{"start":368.203,"end":381.196,"text":"有關於租金補貼的部分我們現在已經依照113年底的有效租約52萬戶已經先做一個租金的四分位統計讓民眾來做一個合理的租屋參考那委員應該關心的是租金補貼是不是可以轉到實價登錄"},{"start":382.797,"end":404.527,"text":"那這個部分大概會有幾個問題存在第一個部分這個資料因為由房客來申報不一定是一個正確的資料可能會造成一個資訊的失真那第二個部分它也可能會涉及到各自的一個疑慮那第三個部分就是租金補貼其實是政府一個政策希望來協助房客可能也會讓這個政策的美意受到打折"},{"start":404.847,"end":427.557,"text":"那這個是我們考慮到的意思我的意思是說那如果房客他沒有辦法來去做一個申報的動作的話那未來因為他有收到這個政府的補貼嘛這個政府還有什麼樣的機制可以讓這個租屋市場更加完善那我們現在做的一個部分的話就是利用這個租金補貼的大量資料來做一個大數據分析提供給民眾一個整體的租屋行情這樣"},{"start":428.097,"end":449.734,"text":"就是說未來就是說固定可能半年就是有個租屋的行情這些數字嘛可是不會要求房客要做一個租金的申報實價登錄不會做好那還有一個實際的關係那我還有一個問題現在就是說因為我們在看這個實價登錄裡面有關於很多的這個租金的費用裡面有分一個坪數跟每坪的一個單價這兩個的數字那我知道說現在"},{"start":452.836,"end":466.141,"text":"那個其實實價登錄大家都有在努力就是說分不同的一些的案子或是不同的一些類型的一些房屋他會有做一些比如說是整層或套房或是怎麼樣的一些數據等等這些數據那我裡面有兩個問題要問很多民眾說"},{"start":469.522,"end":491.524,"text":"第一個有這樣的內容是不錯的可是裡面一些實價登錄裡面的資訊裡面他看不到比如說押金管理費清潔費這些東西是不是有機會再做得更詳細那這第二點的部分是不是可以請教說如果沒有翻因為我發現有一些的狀況是說一些的這個大樓就是沒有沒有電梯的他的單價的租金"},{"start":492.325,"end":513.855,"text":"有些甚至高達一些大樓老舊公寓單平的租金大概是兩千塊將近到兩千塊那這個部分你們未來在做整個這個租金的整體的公佈的時候你們怎麼去區分說這個一般的比較就是說他沒有公設的部分怎麼在公佈租金的部分有一個可以讓民眾可以了解的一個方向"},{"start":514.926,"end":533.371,"text":"OK那個有關於租金實價登錄的部分第一個委員關心到說那個有關於那個大樓比較舊的部分那個部分的話我們現在有把屋齡這邊有特別有標示出來所以如果民眾在選在查詢的時候其實就可以從屋齡來判斷大概他是比較老舊還是新的"},{"start":533.891,"end":552.74,"text":"那另外有關委員講到管理費的這一個部分我們現在是有住民如果有管理費要特別去住民那因為管理費一般都是外加所以我們在申報的時候就沒有特別要求業者或是民眾來做這樣的一個申報所以意思就是說民眾未來可以說這個房子是老舊住宅就是說他可能沒有公設就是說"},{"start":553.92,"end":574.395,"text":"套房的部分他們比較老舊的部分就看出來說租金的一些差異最後再拜託一下就是說還是很多民眾針對說現在最重要的就是說租屋的部分有很多房東會把這個電價來去跟這個房客做額外的收那我知道現在已經定型化契約的部分已經有做一個調整的一個部分"},{"start":574.895,"end":602.123,"text":"不過現在還是我相信很多地方在查緝的時候還是發生很多人是用舊的租約那我希望說內政部這邊也來協助地方政府如何趕快讓這些這些租屋或是說一些電力的一些問題不要讓房客來吸收到過多的這個電費的問題向委員報告一下因為去年8月有電費新制的一個規定所以我們現在都在專案檢查要求業者通路商把舊約下架那讓民眾可以使用到新約好 謝謝"},{"start":606.339,"end":606.359,"text":"謝謝珍"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":241,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時24分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。我們是不是請劉部長？"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["張委員智倫：以及財政部的倪副署長。"],["主席：來，財政部，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員早。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長。部長，今天要討論的重點，相信是全民非常關心的，有關租屋市場的一些相關問題跟討論。我認為現在租屋市場民眾最關心的就是兩點：第一個是租金在最近幾年上漲的幅度非常高。主計總處今天的報告也顯示，在112年、113年分別上漲2.16%跟2.45%，114年1月到2月平均上漲2.53%，都已經創下28年來的新高，代表居住的成本近年來都在增加中。","我們知道政府很努力地祭出一些政策，可是效果有限，所以第一個，租客認為最近的租金非常地高；第二個，相信剛剛巧慧委員也有提到，現在還是有非常多房東不讓房客報租屋補貼，原因就是稅賦的一些相關問題，本席在去年7月11日針對現在兩個租屋非常大的重點，一個叫做公益出租人，就是房客有申請租屋補貼的，跟第二個，包租代管稅額扣抵的差異提出質疑。顧名思義就是，現在申請租屋補貼的就是非常多的學生族，或是一些剛出社會的上班族，他們就是因為可能需要幫忙，所以要申請一些租屋補貼，可是房東的稅賦會轉嫁到房客身上，所以房東的費用減除率如果只有43%，相對來講他所要繳的稅賦是比較高的。包租代管的稅額，其費用率是可以扣除到60%，所以它的費用率可以被扣除得比較高。去年國土署說要跟財政部討論稅額扣抵的部分，這樣的差異會不會造成一國兩制的問題？請問到目前來講，修法的進度為何？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請署長跟您回應一下？"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實有關稅率的部分，事實上我們都有陸陸續續找財政部談過，因為它會跟個人扣抵的免稅額……其實兩個是在一致的……"],["張委員智倫：對，因為現在包租代管……"],["吳署長欣修：所以這個部分……"],["張委員智倫：跟署長報告，現在包租代管的免稅額就是43%，跟一般出租人可以扣除的，100塊他可以扣除43塊的費用，等於是有57%的收入要繳稅，可是公益出租人的部分……我再講一次，包租代管的部分是可以扣到60%嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：約60%。"],["張委員智倫：所以收到100元只有40元要繳稅嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員智倫：可是公益出租人、就是一些房東的費用率只能扣43%，跟一般的出租人一樣57%要繳稅，所以這樣的問題，是不是可以儘快擬定修法的進度？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，因為原來在1萬5,000元以下當然是不用，那超過限額的部分是必要扣60%，嚴格來講，是比一般的房東好，但是現在的狀態是……"],["張委員智倫：公益出租人是扣43%嘛！是包租代管才是扣60%。"],["吳署長欣修：對，最主要是房客的部分還有一個特別扣除額的上限，換算租金是1萬5,000元，我們是因為這樣兩個去比才定這個1萬5,000元，所以要修的話，需要兩邊一起調，這就會涉及這個1萬5,000元如果放在雙北可能是比較偏低的，但是出了雙北就變成是比較高的水準，可是這又是國稅，變成在國稅的角度底下，很難去定出一國兩制或一國多制的態度，因為它不是地方稅。"],["張委員智倫：所以兩邊費用率是不是都可以扣除60%？有沒有機會調整成一致？"],["吳署長欣修：這個可能要請財政部再說明一下。"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，當初社會住宅的費用率60%是有比較高，是因為考量到房東把房屋供包租代管，必須支付業者額外的管理費用，或者是把住宅拿出來做特定用途，譬如社區長照或托育服務等等，房東的費用比較高，那時候是有考量這個因素，所以給房東比較高的費用率。"],["張委員智倫：所以還是沒有考慮要修正嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：因為他的房東的成本可能比愛心房東……"],["張委員智倫：好，沒關係，這會後我們再找時間來討論，好不好？","第二個，我相信很多委員都很關心租屋市場的黑市，還是有存在著，剛剛已經有提供資料，想不到現在最大缺口是在雙北區域，所以我要請教一下，剛剛我們講的現在臺灣有包租代管跟公益出租人的部分，很多房客有申請租屋補貼，在113年取得有效的租約大概72.7萬筆，占潛在的租屋市場規模大概是六成左右，因為現在很多民眾可以在實價登錄看到整個市場的一些租金金額，就是一般出租業者是有義務要去做租金的申報，至於有申請租金補貼的這些公益出租人，未來他所有的這些資料，有沒有機會也在實價登錄上申報？因為我相信這中間還是有很大的一個落差。"],["林代理司長家正：報告委員，有關租金補貼的部分，我們現在已經依照113年底的有效租約52萬戶先做租金四分位數統計，讓民眾來做合理的租屋參考。委員剛關心的租金補貼是不是可以轉到實價登錄？這個部分大概會有幾個問題存在，第一個部分，因為這個資料是由房客申報，不一定是正確的資料，可能會造成資訊的失真；第二個部分，也可能會涉及個資的疑慮；第三個部分，其實租金補貼是政府一個政策，希望來協助房客，可能會讓這政策的美意受到打折，這個是我們考慮到的問題。"],["張委員智倫：我的意思是，因為房客有收到政府的補貼，如果他沒有辦法做申報的話，未來政府還有什麼樣的機制，可以讓這個租屋市場更加完善？"],["林代理司長家正：OK，我們現在就是利用租金補貼的大量資料做大數據分析，提供給民眾整體的租屋行情。"],["張委員智倫：這樣未來可能固定半年會有個租屋的行情這些數字嘛！"],["林代理司長家正：對，是的。"],["張委員智倫：可是不會要求房客要做租金的申報。"],["林代理司長家正：實價登錄，不會做。"],["張委員智倫：好，因為時間的關係，我還有一個問題，因為我們看實價登錄裡有關於很多租金的費用，有分坪數跟每坪單價這兩個數字，我知道現在實價登錄，大家都有在努力分不同的案子或是不同類型的房屋，比如說整層、套房或是怎麼樣的一些數據等等，我有兩個問題要問，很多民眾說：第一個，有這樣的內容是不錯，可是實價登錄裡的資訊看不到比如押金、管理費、清潔費這些東西，是不是有機會再做的更詳細？第二個，因為我發現有一些沒有電梯的大樓、老舊公寓的單坪租金大概是2,000元，這個部分你們未來在做整體租金公布的時候，怎麼去區分一般的和這種沒有公設部分的租金，可以讓民眾有一個瞭解的方向？"],["林代理司長家正：OK，有關於租金實價登錄的部分，第一個，委員關心有關於比較舊的大樓部分，我們現在有把屋齡特別標示出來，所以民眾在查詢的時候，其實就可以從屋齡來判斷，大概它是比較老舊還是新的；另外有關委員講到管理費的部分，現在是有要求，如果有管理費要特別註明，因為管理費一般都是外加，所以在申報的時候，就沒有特別要求業者或是民眾做申報，以上。"],["張委員智倫：所以意思就是民眾未來可以說這個房子是老舊住宅或是套房的部分，它可能沒有公設，由此就可以看出來租金的一些差異嘛！"],["林代理司長家正：對，是的。"],["張委員智倫：最後，再拜託一下，針對現在最重要租屋的部分，有很多房東會跟房客收額外的電費，我知道現在定型化契約已經有做調整，不過我相信很多地方在查緝的時候，還是發生很多人是用舊的租約，希望內政部也協助地方政府如何趕快讓這些租屋或是電力問題，不要讓房客吸收過多電費的問題。"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告，因為去年8月有電費新制的規定，所以我們現在都在做專案檢查，要求業者、通路商把舊約下架，讓民眾可以使用到新約。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["林代理司長家正：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，張智倫委員。下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159533","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159533","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0151cde394b4a16a38313c4daf57d80ad7b033ce60c83815fef73f5eace86becf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:12:04 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謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":14.662,"end":34.449,"text":"部長好部長我想我們今天討論的這個題目租屋市場的透明化其實是非常非常多國人尤其是年輕族群關心那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化我們當然是持肯定的態度應該要為什麼呢因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性我想部長應該也認同這個方向應該是沒有問題吧方向沒有問題"},{"start":39.751,"end":52.584,"text":"我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約數被公開也就是透明化的數字來看很明顯的從2022年底我們有掌握的公開的是40萬一直到去年2024的年底已經到了72萬件這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大"},{"start":62.273,"end":74.772,"text":"所以表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁相關業務的同仁一個值得掌聲一下那我們接著就來看72萬戶 72萬件"},{"start":79.056,"end":88.1,"text":"到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢最有效的政策是什麼呢我們看到剛剛72萬件其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經濟業的管理條例24-1條在只要你的租賃是透過不動產經濟業去處理的那是強制百分之百公開所以這邊就有3萬多件好"},{"start":103.206,"end":122.372,"text":"那後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策尤其是這個租屋補貼政策讓大家把整個的租屋市場哇真的真正的都公開透明化起來這是一個最有效度的政策這樣看起來所以你看看我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣數字來看的話其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面"},{"start":127.113,"end":155.877,"text":"這個數字其實在這裡小小的岔題一下其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式對數字差異不大但是各種不同標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差所以我也很難說要用哪一個那現在我們用這個你們自己提供的這樣租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話全國已經到達了75%可是你看其他六都來講以雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率你全國的"},{"start":156.417,"end":170.888,"text":"有75%公布了可是雙北一個是五成一個是六成部長你怎麼看這樣的現象因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方啊它不是最應該要被公開這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎部長你怎麼看這題"},{"start":172.168,"end":191.403,"text":"是的我想非常謝謝委員的關心我想重點是在於說我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分那是最有效的政策啦他的掌握度不高大概在於就私人呢他比較不願意提供有關租金沒有沒有我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低"},{"start":193.004,"end":197.709,"text":"其實就租金補貼來講雙北因為大概在符合的這個比例上來講是相對比較低大概以學生為主因為租金補貼他也有一個薪資上限"},{"start":212.463,"end":223.835,"text":"他一個薪資上限那所以在這樣的狀況下其實在目前來講全國會申請率最高會是在桃園跟台中也是因為桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100欸對對對所以他的數據會來自於是說因為珠普的話"},{"start":229.781,"end":248.947,"text":"他有一個薪資上限所以以現在所收到的這樣的一個案件來講其實桃園跟台中的比例會是最高你看一下這個表單這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約它不是單純的租金補貼而已喔所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差公委員"},{"start":252.895,"end":273.105,"text":"百分之百是因為我們用主計總數的統計資料全國有87萬戶那如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話大概會有110萬戶所以那個租金是以87萬戶來做統計你看我剛剛從一開始到現在我其實是在跟你順一個邏輯我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開透明化 要"},{"start":273.965,"end":281.856,"text":"那全國有沒有進步 有最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼看起來是租金補貼那雙北為什麼是最低所以我們一層一層我們要解決問題就是要先找出問題真正的問題在哪裡所以我剛剛是在跟你說雙北為什麼最低"},{"start":290.768,"end":318.203,"text":"好 你看起來還沒有抱得非常具體的回答我但你也切到一個邊你插到一個邊說最有效的租金補貼的政策反而在雙北可能不見得那麼能夠有效度執行因為學生居多好 這個就是爭點一了嘛那我覺得這很值得探討應該可以再被討論因為學生市場學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的嘛這是其一嘛好 那第二順著我接下來我要討論的"},{"start":319.484,"end":347.822,"text":"我继续跟你讨论为什么这个租金租屋补贴的部分租屋补贴的部分既然它是最有效的我们回到刚刚那个圆饼图的部分好了租屋补贴既然是最能够达成租屋市场公开透明化的政策那我们要怎么把它加强我上个会期就已经咨询过了不外乎棒子跟胡萝卜胡萝卜的部分我们来看看来署长和部长看一下这个公益出租人租税优惠"},{"start":349.944,"end":377.361,"text":"稅付優惠其實就是我們提供給這個租屋補貼的政策嘛讓房東願意願意加入這個政策坦白講每個人都是要看利益利德嘛所以當我們讓他當他成為公益出租人的時候我們把他的稅付下降他覺得欸加入這個計畫對我也不錯啊不是只有房客拿到了補貼是有房東的稅付也可以減少那我當然也願意加入這個同意吧沒有問題吧"},{"start":379.125,"end":394.698,"text":"沒有人回答我們是不是可以請財政部來回應這個問題那剛剛統計不是啦我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛那我是請我們那個處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎我只要回答這個單純的部分部長沒有關係啦您直接回答會署長回答也沒有關係啦"},{"start":396.345,"end":410.953,"text":"讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得所以願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅負優惠會有哪一些其實你也列得很清楚了嘛綜合所得稅房屋稅和地價稅請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過"},{"start":416.616,"end":440.163,"text":"他所減少的稅負和他如果加入這個政策被政府知道他有這麼多的房屋在出租的時候他的所得稅增加這兩件比較起來他是多還是少他的總收入到底是多還是少有沒有做過這個統計這個就可以財政部啦內政部他們從來沒有給你資料嘛對不對財政部沒有給你這個資料嘛財政部你們有做過這個統計嗎"},{"start":442.535,"end":460.137,"text":"跟委員報告這個他可以想租稅優惠但是我們另外一個規定說這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據所以我們不會去追他以前的稅你要不要針對我的問題回答我的問題是問你公益出軍人在這一屆租金補貼的案件當中他得到的稅負優惠和和"},{"start":462.199,"end":487.568,"text":"他因為房子這麼多出租了被政府知道以後他的所得增加以後要繳納的所得稅負這兩者一出一進之間比較起來他到底是有失還是有得你們有沒有做過比較嘛我們目前沒有這個統計那你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因嘛你這邊看起來讓他降稅了可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了所以所以"},{"start":488.368,"end":515.168,"text":"他最後比較起來總收入還是增加所以他當然覺得這個案子對我無利可圖我就不參加了嘛這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔嘛這是第一個嘛好來那第二個我們來看棒子的部分來棒子的部分內政部房東不擇禁止房客申請租金補貼我非常同意"},{"start":515.868,"end":541.234,"text":"有了胡蘿蔔就應該有棒子來我們來看內政部其實你們在111年的時候就已經說了不但房客房東如果禁止房客不得申請的時候房客可以拒絕及主張無效而且如果房東進而要要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅負的時候房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰款"},{"start":543.294,"end":556.989,"text":"人具不改正者可加重處五至五十萬法案並得按次處罰我想請問內政部從實施到現在有多少人來申訴你們裁罰了多少件有統計數字嗎"},{"start":559.592,"end":575.629,"text":"有關於違反這個規定的部分我們現在沒有統計數據為什麼沒有統計數據因為那個在地方不過我們有統計每年的租金的一個有關租屋糾紛大概有2700多件你沒有統計數據你怎麼知道你這個政策是有沒有效度的"},{"start":576.704,"end":592.081,"text":"我要求應該要有統計數據啊不然你訂這個規定是什麼回事呢所以我今天在跟你談論的就是這樣的兩個點好 我們再重申一次整個的邏輯整個的邏輯就是我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化"},{"start":592.722,"end":620.396,"text":"租金普天達成了租金市場透明化非常有功效而且社會大眾都喜歡都滿意現在也已經到達了一個高比率很可惜還有一點點落差所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔財政部應該要就關於出租人的所得到底能夠得到多少的優惠提出具體的數字來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合"},{"start":621.477,"end":636.571,"text":"棒子的部分也就是內政部對你自己提出的這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字並且繼續追蹤讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行並且提高這樣同意吧"},{"start":637.812,"end":650.074,"text":"部長這樣不好意思麻煩承諾一下我們會跟財政部一起來努力不管是胡蘿蔔棒子的部分但是在執行層面上面我們也需要考慮到說是民法契約上面的規範完全同意所以我同意部長這個方向所以我也認為不應該直接修法變成是所有的租賃契約通通強制我不認為應該要這樣做因為它每個地區有不一樣的狀況"},{"start":663.857,"end":689.199,"text":"而且說實在的我們其實租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明我們要的是一個公平合理的房價資訊所以到一定程度其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況我認為還是應該保有自由溢價的空間只要它在合理公平性這個是可以接受的租市場也是一個產業鏈我們希望它是健康透明的"},{"start":689.819,"end":703.384,"text":"這個方向我同意 不過我的棒子還有胡蘿蔔的政策可以在檢討的地方請部長這邊和財政部待會兒研議謝謝 我需要資料喔那兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室一個是財政部的一個是內政部的 對對對 謝謝好 謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時12分）謝謝主席，我們請劉世芳劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長，我想我們今天討論的題目租屋市場的透明化，其實是非常非常多國人，尤其是年輕族群關心的，那租屋市場到底應不應該透明化？我們當然是持肯定的態度，應該要，為什麼呢？因為它會促進房價的公平性和合理性，我想部長應該也認同這個方向，應該是沒有問題，方向沒有問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們來看看實際上這幾年政府做的狀況有沒有改善，我們用這三年的租賃住宅的有效契約書被公開，也就是透明化的數字來看，很明顯的從2022年底，我們有掌握的、公開的是40萬，一直到去年2024的年底，已經到了72萬件，這樣子的成長幅度不可謂不大，就表示我們在推動的政策確實是有效度的，我想這個也應該給內政部辛苦的同仁、相關業務的同仁掌聲一下。","我們接著就來看，72萬件到底還值不值得應該繼續往上推呢？最有效的政策是什麼？我們看到剛剛的72萬件，其實主要是來自於從2021年我們修正了不動產經紀業的管理條例第二十四條之一，只要你的租賃是透過不動產經紀業去處理的，那是強制百分之百公開，所以這邊就有三萬多件。後面我們就繼續推動了租屋補貼政策和包租代管政策，尤其是租屋補貼政策，讓大家把整個租屋市場真正的公開、透明化起來，這樣看起來這是一個最有效度的政策。","所以我們如果以全國和各縣市這樣的數字來看的話，其實剛剛說的72萬件裡面，這個數字其實……在這裡小小的岔題一下，其實內政部你們有很多不同的統計方式，數字差異不大，但是各種不同的標準看起來就是會有一點點的落差，所以我也很難說要用哪一個。那現在我們是用你們自己提供的，以租賃住宅有效契約涵蓋率來講的話，全國已經到達了75%，可是你看其他六都來講，雙北是明顯低於全國的涵蓋率，全國已經有75%公布了，可是雙北一個是五成，一個是六成，部長，你怎麼看這樣的現象？因為雙北反而是租賃市場最大的地方，它不是最應該要被公開，這樣才能表示達到我們的政策嗎？部長，你怎麼看這一點？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我想非常謝謝委員的關心，我想重點是在於說，我們能夠掌握到可以讓我們來做這個統計數據的分析，是來自於我們的租金補貼的部分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["劉部長世芳：這是最有效的政策。那它的掌握度不高，大概在於私人比較不願意提供有關租屋……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有，我現在的問題是為什麼雙北比較低？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請我們司長來回應。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，儘快好不好？儘快，我們時間有限。我的問題很具體，為什麼雙北比較低？"],["吳署長欣修：其實就租金補貼來講，雙北在符合這個比例上來講是相對比較低，大概以學生為主，因為租金補貼它有一個薪資上限，所以在這樣的狀況下，其實在目前來講，全國申請率最高的會是在桃園跟臺中，也是因為他們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：桃園這邊的比例甚至超過100%耶！"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以它的數據會來自於說，因為租補它有一個薪資上限，所以以現在所收到的案件來講，其實桃園跟臺中的比例會是最高，雙北會是最低。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，你看一下這個表單，這個表格它是租賃住宅的有效契約，它不是單純的租金補貼而已，所以您剛剛的回答稍微有一點偏差。"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告，桃園會超過百分之百是因為我們用主計總處的統計資料，全國有87萬戶，如果加計在外租屋的部分有22萬戶的話，大概會有110萬戶，所以那個是以87萬戶來做統計。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你看我剛剛從一開始到現在，我其實在跟你順一個邏輯，我的邏輯是租賃市場要不要公開、透明化？要！那全國有沒有進步？有！最有效達成這個成功率的政策是什麼？看起來是租金補貼。那雙北為什麼是最低？所以我們一層一層來，我們要解決問題，就是要先去找出真正的問題在哪裡嘛！所以我剛剛是在跟你說，雙北為什麼最低？好，你看起來還沒有辦法非常具體地回答我，但你有切到一個邊、擦到一個邊就是，最有效的租金補貼政策反而在雙北可能不見得能夠那麼有效執行，因為學生居多。好，這個就是爭點一了嘛！我覺得這個很值得探討，應該可以再被討論，因為學生的租屋市場反而是最應該要有公開透明資料的，這是其一嘛！","第二，我順著接下來要討論的部分是，我要繼續跟你討論為什麼這個租屋補貼的部分……我們回到剛剛那個圓餅圖的畫面，既然租屋補貼是最有效、最能達成租屋市場公開透明化的政策，我們要怎麼加強它？我上個會期就已經質詢過了，不外乎棒子跟胡蘿蔔。胡蘿蔔的部分我們來看看，署長和部長，看一下這個「公益出租人稅賦優惠」，其實就是我們提供租屋補貼的政策嘛！讓房東願意加入這個政策。坦白講，每個人都要看利益、利得，所以當我們讓他……當他成為公益出租人的時候，我們把他的稅賦下降，他覺得加入這個計畫對我也不錯，不是只有房客拿到了補貼，是我房東的稅賦也可以減少，我當然就願意加入，這個同意吧？沒有問題吧？沒有人回答嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是不是可以請財政部來回應你這個問題？剛剛……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不是啦，我現在在討論內政部的政策嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請我們處長跟您回應一下統計的部分好嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：我只要回答這個單純的部分。部長，沒有關係，您直接回答，或署長回答也沒有關啦！讓公益出租人覺得自己有利可得，願意加入這個政策沒有問題嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我們現在來看公益出租人得到的稅賦優惠會有哪些，其實你也列得很清楚了，有綜合所得稅、房屋稅和地價稅。請問內政部或財政部有沒有統計過他所減少的稅賦和他如果加入了這個政策，被政府知道他有這麼多間房屋在出租的時候，他增加的所得稅，這兩件比較起來他是多還是少？他的總收入到底是多還是少？有沒有做過這個統計？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個就給財政部了。內政部，財政部從來沒有給你資料嘛，對不對？財政部，你們有做過這個統計嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，他可以享租稅優惠，但是我們另外有一個規定是，這個資料我們不會作為查稅的依據，所以我們不會去追他以前的稅。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你要不要針對我的問題回答。我的問題是問你，公益出租人在這一件租金補貼的案件當中，他得到的稅賦優惠，和他因為房子這麼多出租了，被政府知道他所得增加以後，要繳納的所得稅賦，這兩者一出一進之間比較起來，他到底是有失還是有得？你們有沒有做過比較？"],["倪副署長麗心：我們目前沒有這個統計。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你覺不覺得這才是真正關鍵的原因？你這邊看起來讓他降稅了，可是事實上他因為被知道房子多了，所以他最後比較起來，總收入他還是增加當然會覺得這個案子對他無利可圖，他就不參加了嘛！這才是我們今天公益出租人為什麼不參加租金補貼計畫最大的原因啊！就是你的胡蘿蔔不是真正的胡蘿蔔，這是第一個嘛！","第二個，我們來看棒子的部分，「內政部：房東不得禁止房客申請租金補貼」，我非常同意，有了胡蘿蔔就應該要有棒子。內政部其實在111年時就已經說了，房東如果禁止房客申請的話，房客可以拒絕及主張無效，而且如果房東進而要求漲租或負擔所得增加稅賦的時候，房客可以向政府提出申訴要求改正，如果不改正可處3萬至30萬元罰鍰，仍拒不改正者可加重5萬至50萬罰鍰，並得按次處罰。我想請問內政部，從實施到現在，有多少人來申訴？你們裁罰了多少件？有統計數字嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：有關違反這個規定的部分，我們現在沒有這個統計數據，不過我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼沒有統計數據？"],["林代理司長家正：因為那個是在地方，不過我們有統計每年租金的……有關租屋糾紛的部分，大概有二千七百多件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你沒有統計數據，怎麼知道這個政策有沒有效度？我要求應該要有統計數據啊！不然你定這個規定是怎麼回事呢？所以我今天在跟你談論的是這兩個點。好，我們再重申一次整個邏輯，整個邏輯就是，我們認為租屋市場應該要透明化，租金補貼達成了租屋市場透明化非常有功效，而且社會大眾都喜歡、都滿意，現在也已經到達了一個高比率，很可惜，還有一點點落差，所以我們希望胡蘿蔔成為真正的胡蘿蔔，財政部應該要就公益出租人的所得，到底能夠得到多少的優惠，提出具體的數字，來看看我們現在的租稅優惠是否適合。","棒子的部分就是，內政部對你自己提出這樣的裁罰應該要做出統計數字，並且繼續追蹤，讓棒子跟胡蘿蔔都是有效度的，讓租金補貼政策可以持續進行，並且提高，這樣同意吧？部長，不好意思，麻煩指教。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員指教，我們會跟財政部一起努力，不管是胡蘿蔔、棒子的部分……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：在執行層面上，我們也須要考慮到是民法契約上面的規範，所以公部門比較不容易處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全同意，我同意部長的這個方向，所以我也認為不應該直接修法，變成是所有的租賃契約統統強制……"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我不認為應該要這樣做，因為每個地區有不一樣的狀況，而且說實在的，我們的租賃市場也不需要到達百分之百全面透明，我們要的是一個公平、合理的房價資訊，所以到一定程度，其實就已經可以掌握市場的狀況了，我認為還是應該保有自由議價的空間，只要它是合理、具公平性，這個是可以接受的。"],["劉部長世芳：租屋市場也是一個產業鏈，我們希望它是健康透明的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，這個方向我同意，不過對於棒子跟胡蘿蔔的政策可以再檢討的地方，請部長和財政部帶回去研議。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們會跟財政部一起努力。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝，我需要資料喔！這兩個要求的資料要交到辦公室，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我知道，委員要求的資料，一個是財政部的，一個是內政部的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},{"id":"159532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01f072357e67ffc0c15c2abf3fbf547a71db0abd93ed56f17b033ce60c83815f0b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:29:59 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謝謝委員崔薰這個部分我想如果不把它拆分的話為此目前的運作方式對台電應該是最適合的因為他們習慣這樣的一個運作模式而且知道在過去那段日子"},{"start":243.306,"end":261.824,"text":"發生過什麼樣的問題那要面對過去的這個問題他現在可以提出可以解決的方式所以我們這個遵從這個委員剛才所這個提示的部分我們認為委員所主張的這一種不拆分的這個方式應該是最好的方式"},{"start":262.591,"end":278.88,"text":"不拆分我是支持啦但是我其實想要看到更多台電在對於強化電網這一塊所做的努力啦因為我們都一直講說維持供電的穩定是一個很基本的需求嘛現在不拆分讓台電還是一家"},{"start":280.222,"end":295.688,"text":"完全壟斷的公司在處理這些疏配電業所以台電就必須要擔負更重的責任我們一直講要強化電網的韌性但是你們要擔負更重的責任甚至你要投入更多的投資你才有辦法在電網的韌性這一塊去把它強化起來但是很多台電的虧損這麼多錢你們還有錢要去強化電網韌性"},{"start":304.071,"end":328.723,"text":"我們現在大概會導入用AI的方法然後讓他產生智慧的這個電網然後我想這個會強化他整個人性透過算力來觀察他可能未來有什麼樣的變化所以我們對這一部分因為新的科技的導入對台電的這個營運我們更具信心部長 新的科技導入也要需要很多電來 董事長你好像有話要講來 給你介紹一下報告委員 那個"},{"start":331.4,"end":353.865,"text":"其實台電不分割不代表台電就是會維持既有的壟斷的狀況我跟委員報告就是現在民營的發電業跟民間需要綠電的廠商他可以直接交易台電只負責做快遞就是鼎泰豐可以賣給想要吃小籠包的人台電做Fupenda"},{"start":354.765,"end":376.335,"text":"我並沒有把小籠包壟斷下來我要跟委員報告現在的狀況台電只有在輸電這個輸配電這個會在自然壟斷的這一塊國家經營而它現在越來越多的發電其實包括我們的機組是在配合著產業需要綠電在做調度我要跟委員報告這一塊是"},{"start":377.876,"end":401.605,"text":"好 如果是你剛剛講的啦你只負責當fupenda你只負責當快遞的時候其實你的快遞業務也要增加啦沒錯你的輸配電的這個工程的供給量其實也要快速增加你才能達到你剛剛所講的這一塊啦這也是韌性電網的其中一環嘛是的 這些是公共投資尤其是維持韌性這一件事情都是額外投資所以需要國家支持"},{"start":403.499,"end":408.505,"text":"即使我們現在的電源法修完之後我覺得你的公共投資的這個部分還是要持續增加 是的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":135,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時30分）謝謝主席。是不是請一下部長跟台電董事長還是台電總經理，好嗎？"],["主席：請部長跟台電……"],["邱委員議瑩：今天是總經理列席嗎？"],["主席：總經理、董事長都有來。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：早。部長，剛剛本席的提案說明其實也特別點到了幾個國際的局勢，包含我們一直在談電網的韌性這件事情，可是我還是想要給經濟部一點時間再去說明一下。其實在2017年（民國106年）我們的修法裡頭是希望依照電業法讓台電分家，分成3家子公司，以維持供電的穩定，不過隨著整個國際局勢的變化，這幾年下來，看起來分家已經不是一個好的選擇，但是我想在過去這幾年當中，台電應該有針對分家這件事情做了一些準備工作，對不對？所以這個準備工作做完之後，我們現在又要再回頭來修法，回到台電只維持1家母公司的狀態底下，當然就會有許多委員批評這個是不是浪費資源，如果是這樣，當時為什麼要修法，讓它分家？現在又要再改回來，變成只有1家公司，這個是不是讓台電說明一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，這幾天台電當然針對電業法的相關規定做了一定程度的準備，最重要的準備就是台電針對業務功能成立了幾個不同的系統，比方發電一個系統、核能一個系統、輸電及配電都各自有系統，而這些系統的運營狀態、財務的狀況都有辦法獨立地統計出來，去評比經濟效益……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你現在是說你們已經有這幾個獨立系統的運作底下，你們覺得還是在一個原來母公司整體的管理之下會是比較好運行的？"],["曾董事長文生：是的。跟委員報告，第一個事情是，把一個自然壟斷的產業透過法律的規範拆開，大家都知道這是當時英國保守黨主席柴契爾夫人提出來的政策……"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["曾董事長文生：這個影響全世界非常久，很多國家也都做了相應的政策，但最近連英國保守黨自己都開始反向，把過去電業拆開要走成整合，所以我覺得這個是國際的潮流。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以董事長，除了你們自己的運作以外，看到英國的狀況、看到法國的狀況，也是你們現在決定還是把它合併、維持一個母公司最主要的原因嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：以臺灣的狀況來講，這是一個比較合適的方式。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。部長，您覺得現在這樣的修法進度，對於臺灣未來整體的能源發展或者對於台電未來的整體發展，會不會有更大的幫助？大家現在一直在講台電的虧損問題，包括我們講到國際燃料大漲，甚至中油最近跟美國簽了一個LNG大單，對於臺美關係、對於臺灣整個能源政策、能源問題是否能夠得到有效的緩解呢？部長，我想聽一下您的意見。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員垂詢。關於這個部分，如果不把它拆分的話，維持目前的運作方式對台電應該是最適合的，因為他們習慣這樣的運作模式，而且知道在過去那段日子發生過什麼樣的問題，以及要面對過去的問題，他們現在提出可以解決的方式。所以我們遵從委員剛才所提示的部分，我們認為委員所主張的這種不拆分方式應該是最好的方式。"],["邱委員議瑩：不拆分我是支持的，但是我其實想要看到更多台電對於強化電網這一塊所做的努力，因為我們都一直講說維持供電的穩定是一個很基本的需求，現在不拆分，讓台電還是一家完全壟斷的公司在處理這些輸配電業，所以台電就必須要擔負更重的責任。我們一直講要強化電網的韌性，但是你們要擔負更重的責任，甚至要投入更多的投資，才有辦法在電網的韌性這一塊強化起來。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是現在台電就虧損這麼多錢，你們怎麼還有錢去強化電網韌性？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在大概會導入用AI的方法產生智慧電網，我想這個會強化整個韌性，透過算力來觀察未來有什麼樣的變化，所以新的科技導入讓我們對台電的營運更具信心。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，新的科技導入也需要很多電。董事長，你好像有話要講，讓你說明一下。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，其實台電不分割，不代表台電就會維持既有壟斷的狀況。跟委員報告，民營發電業跟民間需要綠電的廠商可以直接交易，台電只負責做快遞，就是鼎泰豐可以賣給想要吃小籠包的人，台電就做foodpanda，我並沒有把小籠包壟斷下來。我要跟委員報告，以現在的狀況，台電只有在輸配電會自然壟斷這一塊由國家經營，而現在越來越多的發電、其實包括我們的機組是在配合著產業需要綠電在做調度……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，董事長，我的時間到了……"],["曾董事長文生：我要跟委員報告，這一塊不是台電……"],["邱委員議瑩：如果是你剛剛講的，你只負責當foodpanda、只負責當快遞的時候，其實你的快遞業務也要增加。"],["曾董事長文生：沒錯。"],["邱委員議瑩：你的輸配電工程供給量也要快速增加，才能達到您剛剛所講的這一塊。"],["曾董事長文生：這些有公共投資。"],["邱委員議瑩：這也是韌性電網的其中一環，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是的。這些是公共投資，尤其是維持韌性這件事情都是額外投資，所以需要國家支持。"],["邱委員議瑩：是，所以你們的公共投資還是要持續增加。即使現在電業法修完之後，我覺得你們的公共投資部分還是要持續增加。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往那第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢那第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性那這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎"},{"start":60.345,"end":63.491,"text":"報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員長跟你做一個詳細報告"},{"start":67.188,"end":92.877,"text":"是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的"},{"start":94.718,"end":111.308,"text":"OK 理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當然張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點"},{"start":112.529,"end":132.408,"text":"那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢"},{"start":133.709,"end":142.8,"text":"那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了"},{"start":144.369,"end":169.575,"text":"所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是 報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個"},{"start":172.495,"end":181.116,"text":"剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合"},{"start":181.889,"end":207.43,"text":"第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO整合電力調度電力系統天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃"},{"start":209.671,"end":228.28,"text":"並將成立國有能源公司這個GV Energy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之四百 部長這個部分喔到時候你再提供給我就好因為你在講英國中英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個"},{"start":229.02,"end":242.704,"text":"電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態"},{"start":246.545,"end":268.059,"text":"那現在8年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展"},{"start":268.479,"end":288.193,"text":"也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法"},{"start":290.322,"end":310.139,"text":"你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼 第一是漲電費那"},{"start":312.561,"end":333.966,"text":"企業民眾的成本他都持續增加 可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥 撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候 政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮 就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子 當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個"},{"start":335.046,"end":357.947,"text":"成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在四月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整"},{"start":358.987,"end":381.197,"text":"電費的一個問題所以我剛剛這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整"},{"start":382.998,"end":401.169,"text":"簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個"},{"start":406.813,"end":435.052,"text":"社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解 完全理解我最後再丟一個部分因為主席站起來我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個"},{"start":436.753,"end":459.365,"text":"台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好好謝謝政委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時22分）主席好。我想請教郭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天主席特別安排電業法的修法，電業法在2017年修法的時候，大概提出了四個廠網分離的主要理由：第一個是打破台電壟斷，促進市場的競爭。第二個是促進綠能發展與再生能源的併網。第三個是要符合國際電力自由化的趨勢。第四個是要提升電力系統的效率與彈性。請問當時這四個廠網分離的理由，目前都還是台電整個發展過程當中的目標嗎？這四個還是目前的目標嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想現在的環境有所改變，我是不是請能源署署長來跟你做詳細報告？"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。"],["李代理署長君禮：因為現在跟當初106年的環境是不一樣的，當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司，後來我們開放了綠電，當時綠電只有4%，今年應該會到15%，未來會越來越多，所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多。因為綠電本身不是太穩定，反而是希望有一個穩定、統一的電業來維持市場的穩定。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，其實2017年修法的時候，包括張麗善委員……當然現在張麗善是縣長，還有國民黨本來就主張不要拆分，現在走了8年之後又要回到原點，在這個過程當中，到底這8年當中有哪些具體的變化？坦白說，這個問題在網路上大家的討論也非常的多，他們提出一個狀態說現在電業法又要修，是不是因為當初要拆分的時候台電很賺錢，而最近連續三年下來台電都是持續虧損，所以現在當然就不需要拆分了，也因此要再把它回復到原本的狀態，針對網路上很多民眾這樣子的說法，部長可不可以簡單回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，針對您所指正的這個部分，台電分割是否……我們在看整個國際的趨勢都是往整合的方向在做，曾經分割過的國家，他們現在也在整合。剛才邱委員也有報告過，國際趨勢已經從開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合。第二個，各國都採取提供補貼、定價上限、開徵暴利稅等措施，以確保電價平穩，已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例，譬如英國2024年修法成立國營NESO整合電力調度、電力系統、天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃，並將成立國有能源公司（GB Energy）；法國在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF，2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之百國營。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，這個部分到時候你再提供資料給我就好。你剛才講到英國，英國在1990年代也開始推動電力自由化，他們也成立國家電網公司負責輸配電，然後發電和售電他們也是把它分開來，所以它有各個不同的作法。本席想要特別提到的是在2017年的時候，坦白說，當時國民黨團就是反對拆分的狀態，如今8年走了一大段之後，我們的能源政策沒有改變，結果台電從獲利變成虧損的情況。我們認真來看待這個狀態的時候，就會覺得現在修電業法是修到原本國民黨的主張，我覺得我也沒有意見，其實我也支持不要去拆分它，我覺得這樣不只符合台電具體的發展，也符合我們對於臺灣整個電力供應政策的期待。只是我不得不特別提到一個狀態，因為你上來的時候，你也特別提到整個能源政策的相關問題，我們在修電業法的時候，對於能源政策會不會調整，可不可以請部長提出一個政策性的說法？"],["郭部長智輝：你說能源政策嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：能源政策的部分，因為我剛剛提到為什麼台電會持續從獲利變成虧損，我們認為它就是整個政策上面的問題，因為政策上面的問題讓台電的虧損增加，台電虧損增加的時候會出現的狀態，第一個是政府補貼，第二個是漲電費，包括企業和民眾的成本都持續增加。我們回到上一個部分，如果是漲電價的話，民眾被剝一次皮；如果是政府撥補的話，民眾還是被剝一次皮，只是用間接支出的方式。我們發現不管怎麼樣，當電價調漲，企業的成本和民眾的成本都不斷增加的時候，物價就會上升，然後再出現台電還會持續的虧損，台電虧損之後就會再出現一個狀態……我們要怎麼解決這個問題？你一上來的時候也提到電價自由化的部分，4月份馬上就要碰到是不是要調整電費的問題，所以我剛剛提出兩個問題：第一個是針對整個能源政策的部分，當我們在修電業法的時候，部長是不是也能同時針對能源政策做一個政策性的說明是不是會有所調整？第二個就是針對4月份的時候，電費是不是還會調整？"],["郭部長智輝：簡單報告委員，關於能源政策的部分，基本上是多元的能源都可以用，有關您剛才在談的核電部分，我想大家都很清楚三個原則，包括安全及核廢料可以處理，第三個則是社會有共識。我們的能源政策還是一樣，如果這些都可以解決，各種多元的能源都會使用。","至於4月份會不會調漲電價的部分，我還是再次跟您報告，電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會來決定，我們會尊重他們的決定來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：完全理解，我最後再丟一個狀態，因為之前你一直提到台電要如何讓它有效的經營，之前台電購電損失二百一十幾億，後來自己調降到92億，你知道這個案子嗎？就是台電跟九家IPP購電的相關合約問題。"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我是不是請總經理跟您說明？"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，再請總經理之後到本席辦公室說明，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。我們等一下會處理條文，大家還是可以充分發言。","現在請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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部長那本席呢一貫主張就是台電要以綜合電業的模式繼續經營那當然我們有一些修法背景對於對這個綜合電有疑慮的這些人士我覺得還是要回歸一下一些歷史的爬梳在106年的時候電業法的修法為了順應當時國際電業自由化所以是以開放綠電自由化再來開放火電自由化的框架所以第一階段我們開放了綠電自由化"},{"start":46.645,"end":54.474,"text":"2025綠能發電占比提升至20%之目標在目前來講今年確實在高峰端確實也能夠達成20%的綠能發電占比是要給我們經濟部所有的同仁給予掌聲"},{"start":60.581,"end":78.537,"text":"真的是不容易的工作那第二階段我們再來開放否電自由化所以呢也就開始了106年的修法網廠分離分割台電為電力市場全面開放做準備但是有幾個重點這也是本席要支持綜合電業的原因"},{"start":78.677,"end":92.89,"text":"第一個地緣政治跟國際趨勢的轉變在三年前惡霧戰爭地緣政治的動盪以及2050近年轉型的目標這也是在您的報告當中有提國際對電業經營的失約整個氾濫大轉由推動電力市場的自由競爭轉為強化管制與整合我們來看這三個國家第一個核能大國法國"},{"start":102.839,"end":128.858,"text":"他的发电由政府持股已经达84%了俄乌战争之后为了稳定他们发电的财务前年2023年他们全部的国有化百分百那英国呢是最早倡议电业自由化所以他们根本就没有这个国营事业了好就所以国力电力全部的民营化俄乌战争之后竟然是人民跟政党的请愿"},{"start":129.338,"end":155.479,"text":"人員公司國有化而在去年的時候他成立的國營他們這國營當中是做綜合電業跟規劃設計而且在另外成立的一家公司叫做國有再生人員公司他連再生人員他都要統合的來做一個整合的平台就這家公司新加坡他是一個長久以來就是以他們的新加坡電力公司購買天然氣"},{"start":157,"end":181.977,"text":"那過往他們購買天然氣就是這家公司自己去買新加坡電力公司去買現在在去年他修法中央政府來買中央政府還成立了中央燃氣機構統一為這個發電公司來購買天然氣好另外第二點本席會支持綜合電業的原因因為也只有綜合電才能統整各種不同電力的效應不管風、光、水力、天然氣"},{"start":182.637,"end":206.058,"text":"好 我們看再生能源的發電量其實已經打國家總用電的11.7%了這個是可以預估這樣的再生能源廠及裝置持續的投入未來這種再生能源方電比值會持續升高但是綠電的間歇特性供電的穩定當然需要做統整的運用所以唯有透過發電端 電網端 受電端整合在一塊"},{"start":209.301,"end":224.291,"text":"才能有效的維持電力供應如果我的發電電網跟售電是分開的情況之下本息很難想像在供電當這三家公司是以盈利為主的時候根本不會配合我經濟部不會配合國家政策去做統整的運用"},{"start":225.091,"end":247.714,"text":"第三個本席會支持綜合電業的原因是只有綜合電業才能支持國家的人員政策穩定產業發展我國產業的特性為出口導向型的製造業勢必面臨低碳跟成本競爭力的要求如何確保民生穩定產業發展跟經濟成長這是國家的首重課題也唯有以綜合電業來"},{"start":249.375,"end":269.157,"text":"存續呢才能的這個國營事業才會優先支持政策當我分割這三家的時候這個一定政府說我們有哪些產業政策啊你必須投入喔譬如說我們說電力韌性啊那你這家公司的輸配電你要不要投入他絕對不投入"},{"start":269.577,"end":277.544,"text":"因為太貴了我的偏鄉光是只要偏鄉地方他們哪要用這些成本下去做投資我們整個電力電網是花了千億啊這家公司怎麼可能單獨花千億所以為了支持我們的產業政策民生穩定經濟成長本席是支持綜合電業的那"},{"start":288.274,"end":300.291,"text":"另外呢 主責機關這個部分我要特別給人員署一個掌聲但是我也給他一個克責就是要給他刻意在一些責任那這件事情需要經濟部這邊給他一個靠山"},{"start":303.936,"end":320.607,"text":"怎麼說呢我們是屬於高度能源進口的需求的國家過去能源署他只要管哪家公司就夠了管台電中油可以掌握國家所有的人員供給電業自由化所衍生的再生能源業者能源署應該強化目的事業管理機制所以呢"},{"start":321.227,"end":343.213,"text":"但是我要提到地方政府對能源的專業是相對欠缺的新科技對於環境跟原生產業乃至於區域發展民間的宣達都需要能源署在中央統籌執行好再精準的講我的再生能源大部分的再生能源廠都是國家權利授予的不管是我離岸風電光電廠包括地熱"},{"start":345.613,"end":358.54,"text":"這都是國家大概20年或25年到了之後我們政府要續約但是我們現在有沒有數據完全沒數據喔我們現在這個國家授予的這些地區來講包括豐利"},{"start":362.102,"end":367.526,"text":"太陽包括地震所產生的衝擊這些看起來是誰該做應該是環境部喔可是環境部要管不管電力效應不管當我這個場域當中這些的天然資源所帶來的數據當我對於我電力效應的這樣的一個綜合的一個評估或者是觀察有沒有好我為什麼說到地方政府也有關係我的這個養殖場"},{"start":390.183,"end":395.548,"text":"全部都是地方政府啊我養殖場的數據相關周邊的數據我為什麼要提供給你給你能源署呢所以我講到這個工作當你已經要預見到我20、25年的時候我需要再做這個重新的再做續約的時候或者"},{"start":408.7,"end":432.337,"text":"我現在的人員政策我有沒有需要透過數據能夠五年十一元的十年來我需要做一些調整都這需要數據的支持那我說需要經濟部多給能源組這個支持跨部會啊 跨農業部 跨環境部 跨地方政府這個東西你叫一個能源組他該做"},{"start":432.957,"end":457.227,"text":"我認為他因為電力這些東西都是要影響我電力的效益但是他要有哪一個單位或機構特別來做這個是部長這邊你可能要這個等一下簡單回應一下好最後具體主張台電呢是以綜合電業的方式來繼續經營這是本協專強烈要求人員署評估建立再生人員場域各級數據監理機制並規劃台電場域先行事辦"},{"start":461.108,"end":465.452,"text":"到底我哪些台電所的離岸風電或光電廠我們就先行示範這些數據的整合因為我剛剛講還有設計跨部會跟中央地方才能夠有力要求我們未來民營電廠應該比照辦理部長您怎麼看謝謝委員指教我們會在一個月裡面提供這些資料給委員參考好 謝謝部長我們請加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":101,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時14分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，本席一貫主張台電要以綜合電業的模式繼續經營，當然我們有一些修法背景，對綜合電業有疑慮的這些人士，我覺得還是要回歸一些歷史的爬梳。在106年的時候電業法修法，為了順應當時國際電業自由化，以「先開放綠電自由化，再開放火電自由化」為框架，所以第一階段我們開放了綠電自由化，來達成2025綠能發電占比提升至20%之目標。在目前來講，今年確實在高峰端，確實也能夠達成20%的綠能發電占比，這要給我們經濟部所有的同仁掌聲，真的是不容易的工作。第二階段再來開放火電自由化，也就開始了106年的修法，「廠網分離─分割台電」，為電力市場全面開放做準備。","但是有幾個重點，這也是本席要支持綜合電業的原因。第一、地緣政治與國際趨勢的轉變。在三年前的俄烏戰爭，地緣政治動盪，以及2050淨零轉型的目標，這也是在您的報告當中有提到，國際對電業經營的思維整個翻轉，由推動電力市場的自由競爭轉為強化管制與整合。我們來看這3個國家，第一個，核能大國法國，他們的法電已由政府持股達84%，俄烏戰爭之後，為了穩定法電的財務，前年（2023年）他們全部百分百國有化；英國是最早倡議電業自由化，所以他們根本就沒有這個國營事業了，國內電業全部都民營化。俄烏戰爭之後，竟然是人民跟政黨請願能源公司國有化，而在去年的時候，他們成立國營NESO，做綜合電業跟規劃設計，而且再另外成立了一家公司叫做「國有再生能源公司」，連再生能源都要統合來做一個整合的平台；新加坡長久以來就是以新加坡電力公司購買天然氣，過往他們購買天然氣就是這家新加坡電力公司自己去買，在去年他們修法，改為由中央政府來買，中央政府還成立了中央燃氣機構，統一為這個發電公司購買天然氣。","另外，本席會支持綜合電業的第二個原因，因為也只有綜合電業才能統整各種不同電力的效益，不管是風、光、水力、天然氣。我們再生能源的發電量其實已經達國家總用電的11.7%了，可以預估再生能源廠及裝置持續的投入，未來再生能源發電比只會持續升高，但是綠電的間歇特性，供電的穩定當然需要統整運用，所以唯有透過發電端、電網端、售電端整合，才能有效的維持電力供需平衡。如果我們的發電電網跟售電是分開的情況之下，本席很難想像在供電的部分，當這3家公司是以營利為主的時候，根本不會配合經濟部，不會配合國家政策去做統整的運用。","第三個本席會支持綜合電業的原因是，只有綜合電業才能支持國家的能源政策，穩定產業發展。我國產業的特性為出口導向型的製造業，勢必面臨低碳跟成本競爭力的要求，如何確保民生穩定、產業發展跟經濟成長，這是國家的首重課題，也唯有以綜合電業來存續的國營事業才會優先支持政策。當分割這3家的時候，政府說我們有哪些產業政策必須投入，譬如說電力韌性，那這家公司的輸配電要不要投入？它絕對不投入，因為太貴了。光是偏鄉地方，他們怎麼會用這些成本下去做投資？我們整個電力電網是花了千億，這家公司怎麼可能單獨花千億！所以為了支持我們的產業政策、民生穩定、經濟成長，本席是支持綜合電業的。","另外，在主責機關這個部分我要特別給能源署一個掌聲，但是我要課予它一些責任，這件事情需要經濟部給它一個靠山。由於我們是屬於高度能源進口需求的國家，過去能源署只要管2家公司就夠了，管台電、中油就可以掌握國家所有的能源供給，電業自由化所衍生的再生能源業者，能源署應該強化目的事業管理機制。但是我要提到，地方政府對能源的專業是相對欠缺，新科技對於環境、原生產業，乃至於區域發展、民間的宣達，都需要能源署在中央統籌執行。再精準的講，大部分的再生能源場域都是國家權力授予的，不管是離岸風電、光電廠，包括地熱，這都是大概到了20年或25年之後政府要續約，但是我們現在有沒有數據？完全沒數據喔！以現在國家授予的這些地區來講，包括風力、太陽，包括地震所產生的衝擊，這些看起來是誰該做？應該是環境部，可是環境部管不管電力效益？不管！有沒有針對這個場域當中這些天然資源所帶來的數據對於電力效益的綜合評估或是觀察？我為什麼說到地方政府也有關係？養殖場全部都是地方政府啊！養殖場周邊相關的數據為什麼要提供給你能源署呢？所以講到這個工作，當你已經預見25年之後需要再重新續約，或者現在的能源政策在未來5年或10年有沒有需要做一些調整，這些都需要數據的支持，所以我說經濟部需要多給能源署支持，而且要跨部會，跨農業部、跨環境部、跨地方政府，這個東西你叫能源署……當然能源署該做，因為這些東西都會影響電力的效益，但是它要由哪一個單位或機構特別來做？針對這個部分，部長你等一下可能要簡單回應一下。","最後本席具體主張台電是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營，我強烈要求能源署評估建立再生能源場域各級數據監理機制，並規劃台電場域先行試辦，到底是哪些台電的離岸風電或光電場，我們就先行試辦這些數據的整合，因為我剛才講它涉及跨部會跟中央、地方，才能夠有力要求未來民營電廠應該比照辦理。部長，您怎麼看呢？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指教，我們會在一個月裡面提供這些資料給委員參考。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝部長，請加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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