{"total":{"value":58,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-03-26"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"159594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea348b31b2c3cfd37cd9ae9eb35b51f79668c80eeefacbca121b7c0d8a20c67ed6ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:02:01 - 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警方從醫院的產料發現有安非他命的陽性反應那雖然向檢察官來取得鑑定許可但法院還是認為說他不是經過拘捕的嫌疑人或毒品人口那這個做法他認為說是這個排除他的一個證據力"},{"start":114.19,"end":134.983,"text":"那因此這些種種的一些因素都造成說我們今天發現警方我們在查緝所謂的毒品的時候尤其在查驗毒價的時候會有很多機制漏洞所以我們希望就針對這個問題今天我們的修法能夠把所有的狀況一併的來去思考"},{"start":136.446,"end":163.54,"text":"因為現在的那個販毒的問題毒品的問題 氾濫的問題真的是已經嚴重的衝擊我們社會的安全那尤其很多新興毒品它的那個影響甚至直接衝擊到用路安全那毒價的問題越來越嚴重所以今天我們有一些提案就希望大家我們可以一起來想辦法找出一個解決的方法能夠完善我們的一個法規讓我們第一線執法人員可以來守護我們這個"},{"start":164.641,"end":166.518,"text":"社會的安全跟秩序以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea343660b6e119e6b319c4f4f40f77916053c80eeefacbca121bf82bc5d892225b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:10:43 - 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謝謝好 謝謝黃建豪委員再來我們請徐欣穎委員進行提案說明"}]}},{"id":"159597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34bde3ee28cc72fbfcc4f4f40f77916053c80eeefacbca121bdf663d1e515b30ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:19:38 - 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要認同跟尊重不僅僅只是篇幅少角度也非常的偏頗原住民的歷史往往只在我們電影上面看到的霧社事件或者是太魯閣事件這一類仿日 抗日的情節中出現"},{"start":85.859,"end":100.87,"text":"然而反抗清朝跟國民政府的歷史則被省略掉這讓原住民族的抗爭成為他人敘事的陪襯也失去了我們的主體性"},{"start":102.31,"end":122.383,"text":"為了要扭轉這樣的歷史失衡本席在今天的新提案有增加6月26號是原住民族的抵抗日以及10月31號為原住民族的轉型正義紀念日"},{"start":123.683,"end":139.789,"text":"這不只是紀念更是要承認原住民族的歷史跟傷痛尤其在我們自己的土地上這也是全社會要重新學習跟反省的契機"},{"start":140.99,"end":158.669,"text":"我們透過紀念日有機會讓社會能夠了解原住民族的奮鬥還有犧牲培養同理還有尊重我們更能夠透過制度性的記憶來推動歷史教育改革還有族群的和諧"},{"start":160.07,"end":174.49,"text":"紀念日它不僅僅只是假日而是一種責任跟反省讓我們的未來更公平也讓這塊美麗的土地的歷史更完整更何況我們來看一看"},{"start":177.987,"end":201.604,"text":"委内瑞拉在10月12号他们以前称为哥伦布日现在已经改为原住民的抵抗日我们来看一下玻利维亚在10月12号他们也定为去殖民化日全世界都已经是如此的潮流"},{"start":202.836,"end":229.365,"text":"台灣自稱於在世界上不能夠缺席難道我們不該把台灣這塊土地的主人援助民族的歷史傷痛在我們的節日當中被全國大家大眾被學生給了解嗎這樣子這塊土地才有完整的歷史敬意"},{"start":230.285,"end":237.05,"text":"最後我希望各位委員跟相關機關能夠支持本席所提的法案讓這個案子能夠順利的在委員會審查通過然後進一步也在三讀後正式的立法"},{"start":248.338,"end":268.347,"text":"為原住民族的權益提供實質的保障也讓全體國人有機會更深入的能夠了解原住民族的歷史跟貢獻讓我們共同來推動更公平更多元的台灣社會謝謝謝謝高金素美委員提案說明好我們"}]}},{"id":"159596","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159596","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea345c47f1a37381f782c4f4f40f77916053c80eeefacbca121b286ec5ce099167b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:13:20 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還假於民讓人民真正享有應得的休息與尊嚴"},{"start":53.101,"end":60.21,"text":"我們台灣的工時全球居高不下 休假制度嚴重落後根據2023年的統計 我們台灣勞工的年均工時超過2020個小時遠遠高於OECD國家的1742個小時"},{"start":71.404,"end":91.404,"text":"我們再來看看鄰近國家的數據韓國1874小時,國定假日有15天工作滿一年,特休有15天日本,年均工時有1637小時,國定假日16天特休起始就有10天"},{"start":92.245,"end":117.64,"text":"那台灣呢 年均工時2020小時國定假日只有12天 特休起始是7天所以台灣人一年工作比日本多出將近400個小時卻休的最少那這是政府應該驕傲的生產力嗎還是對勞工權益的忽視與漠視讓我們正視這個不合理的現象"},{"start":118.16,"end":139.966,"text":"让台湾的劳工不再是亚洲最廉价的齿轮那我们假日的价值呢也不只是多休一天更是决定我们要成为怎么样的国家当一个国家连自己的历史民主劳动权益都不愿意给予法定的保障我们还谈什么文化自信"},{"start":141.024,"end":163.26,"text":"首先劳动节我们认为劳动不应有分别休假不该有差异目前台湾的劳动节仅适用劳基法的劳工享有军工教与部分职业排除在外但是国际间如德国、法国、日本等国劳动节皆是全民放假没有职业别的歧视"},{"start":163.88,"end":175.421,"text":"那目前有66.3%的台灣民眾支持勞動節全民放假這不只是一天假日的問題而是對所有工作者的公平與尊重"},{"start":176.878,"end":202.332,"text":"為何我們的政府口口聲聲重視勞工卻連最基本的平等假期都做不到那針對教師節的部分我們希望尊師重道不該只是口號教育是國家的根基然而在教師節這一天老師依然要站在講台上授課這難道不是最大的諷刺嗎反觀輔仁大學、東吳大學、晉儀等大學"},{"start":204.153,"end":231.334,"text":"已經率先讓全校放假真正的落實尊師重道這說明什麼這說明當政府猶豫不決的時候民間已經用行動證明什麼才是正確的選擇目前全國有64.3%的民眾支持教師節列為國定假日這不只是對教育工作者的肯定更是對整個社會價值觀的重新校準"},{"start":232.234,"end":241.226,"text":"當一個社會不願意用制度來表達對教育的尊重,我們又怎麼能期待下一代會重視學問,會敬重師長呢?有關光復節,我們希望歷史不該被遺忘,國家認同不容淡化。"},{"start":249.861,"end":275.515,"text":"有64.1%的台湾民众支持光复节为国定假日这不只是一天假期的问题更是台湾历史脉络的存续与国家意识的维护当我们自己都不愿意纪念自己的历史怎么能期待世界尊重我们的存在行献纪念日我们认为民主不该只是课本里的概念"},{"start":276.8,"end":302.796,"text":"台湾的行宪纪念日不仅没有假日甚至在公共讨论中都被淡化我们台湾自语为亚洲最成熟的民主国家请问我们的宪法日在哪里日本的宪法日不仅是国定假日当天国会议事堂开放参观全国举办宪政研讨会加深人民对民主与宪政的认识"},{"start":303.556,"end":309.608,"text":"所以有65.4%的民眾支持行縣紀念日列為國定假日"},{"start":310.734,"end":334.824,"text":"因為這代表的不僅是歷史更是民主價值的象徵我們總說要深化民主為何連一個紀念日都不肯給予這是政府的怠惰還是對人民智慧的輕忽呢所以最後我們希望還價於民也還勞工尊嚴還國家以認同今天我們的訴求很簡單勞動節全民放假落實勞動平權"},{"start":339.446,"end":366.088,"text":"教师节放假让尊师重道不只是口号恢复光复节确保历史记忆与国家认同行献纪念日法定化让民主精神深入人心这不只是假日的改革而是关于我们希望台湾成为什么样的社会还价于民还劳工尊严让台湾人过好日子这才是政府该做的事谢谢"},{"start":368.514,"end":368.534,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16544","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16544","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db5d3f5f5d43d00e84c45a0f691f4476397692a6bdb7e2f09f68c94fc62bbf63885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-26T08:30:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-26T13:29:00+08:00","duration":17914,"影片長度":"04:58:34","委員發言時間":"08:30:26 - 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TORONTO"},{"start":1803.645,"end":1804.906,"text":"請準備報告出席人數"},{"start":1806.736,"end":1819.746,"text":"報告全體會初期委員12人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議事錄時間114年3月24日星期一9時至12時地點紅樓101會議室"},{"start":1829.213,"end":1846.6,"text":"出席委員 林大浪等14人 列席委員 林德福等13人列席人員 經濟部部長 郭志輝暨相關人員等主席 蔡昭吉委員亦予報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定 確定討論事項 審查行政環境審議 電業法部分條文修正草案等7案"},{"start":1848.787,"end":1874.089,"text":"討論事項 合併詢答委員就議人及楊瓊瑜說明提案要旨經濟部部長郭志輝報告後委員林大化等19人提出質詢進而經濟部部長郭志輝及相關人員及其答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員林德福及徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並附資本會決議一"},{"start":1876.571,"end":1905.072,"text":"第二條 第六條 第十一條 第十五條 第十九條 第二十四條 第三十五條 第四十七條 第七十四條 第七十五條增訂第七十八條之一及第八十條條文均照行政院提案通過二 通過附帶決議一項三 並要審查完均 領據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商 並推請蔡昭吉委員異於院會討論時做補充說明主席宣告 通過之條文相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":1905.692,"end":1931.265,"text":"散會 宣讀完畢好 我們等一下再處理議事錄我們現在繼續進行報告事項 請宣讀邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況並被質詢 宣讀完畢好 我們本日議程是排定農業部來進行業務的概況報告那我們先來介紹我們今天列席的機關首長那首先由我們農業部 我們部長陳俊記 陳部長"},{"start":1934.465,"end":1939.026,"text":"好 部長好那我們農業部綜合規劃師師長蔡巧蓮師長好 綜合規劃師檢論記證劉玉文好 農業部資源永續利用師師長莊老達莊師長好 農業部農民輔導師師長陳俊延陳師長"},{"start":1960.107,"end":1966.632,"text":"農業部畜牧師師長李怡謙農業部動物保護師師長江文泉農業部國際事務師師長蕭東瓊農業部農業科技師師長李弘熙農業部資訊師師長郭坤峰"},{"start":1990.238,"end":2006.812,"text":"農業部秘書處處長黃文毅法治處處長吳芙蓉人事處處長吳黎明還有我們政風處處長陳忠強會計處處長陳立榮和統計處處長王淑娟"},{"start":2017.978,"end":2042.945,"text":"好那接下來是農業部農糧署署長姚志源好謝謝農業部漁業署署長王茂誠農業部動植物檢疫防疫檢疫署署長吳榮斌徐榮斌好謝謝我們林業級自然保育署署長林華慶"},{"start":2046.597,"end":2069.722,"text":"農村發展及水土保持署署長李正陽農田水利署署長蔡生福農業金融署署長李聰勇農業科技園區管理中心主任謝聖信"},{"start":2073.117,"end":2084.66,"text":"農業試驗所所長林學思林業試驗所所長曾彥學水產試驗所所長詹錦怡續產試驗所所長黃正芳獸醫研究所所長鄧明忠農業藥物試驗所所長徐慈紅"},{"start":2104.465,"end":2117.256,"text":"生物多樣性研究所所長楊家棟桃園區農業改良廠廠長王玉華苗栗區農業改良廠廠長呂秀英台中區農業改良廠廠長楊弘英台南區農業改良廠廠長陳義初"},{"start":2133.456,"end":2157.141,"text":"高雄區農業改良廠廠長羅正忠花蓮區農業改良廠廠長楊大吉台東區農業改良廠廠長陳信源茶籍飲料作物改良廠廠長蘇忠正種苗改良繁殖廠長張定林"},{"start":2160.503,"end":2180.425,"text":"好那我們現在列席的機關首長都已介紹那我們在場有我們林代化委員還有我們張雅玲張委員那我們現在請我們農業部陳俊基部長報告"},{"start":2192.276,"end":2213.102,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天奉邀到大院經濟委員會第11屆第三會期做有關農業部的業務報告首先還是要代表農業部感謝所有的委員長期以來對農業的一個支持讓我們的農業的政策能夠逐步的落實繼續往前進"},{"start":2215.978,"end":2237.586,"text":"整個農業部的一個施政還是以強化農業韌性為主軸那在前端的生產端我們最主要是以智慧的生產系統來減少我們天災的一個干擾那在消費端我們是以穩定農產品的一個供應鏈更同時確保我們的農產品的安心"},{"start":2238.726,"end":2257.575,"text":"那在環境面的部分最主要是在強化農業及農村發展的一個支持體系來維護整個農業的一個資源跟生態那以下僅就生產端消費端跟環境端來做一些說明那生產端的部分我們最主要是持續我們之前推動的自衛農業"},{"start":2259.135,"end":2282.744,"text":"進一步的一個落地然後運用數位科技去建構完善的一個農業生產鏈的部分那這個部分包括整個的一個產品履歷的溯源的系統還有環境監測的系統都已經逐步的一個落實然後透過一個動態的管理系統能夠隨時掌握整個生產栽培的一個系統那在漁船方面我們也"},{"start":2284.204,"end":2311.07,"text":"增加了有關於自動辨識漁船的一個進出然後減少人力的一個支出在整個提升生產效率面部分我們透過了整合的物聯網的部分那在養殖漁業的部分我們提供了一個自動生產排成的一個遠端遙控的一個設備設施的導入來大幅的降低農業的勞動力那在續勤方面不斷的去透過這樣的一個監測系統來"},{"start":2313.65,"end":2330.878,"text":"更精準的掌握我們的情緒的一個健康狀態同時運用AI的一個輔助裝置不管是在育種面也好或是在調查面也好我們在去年度開始就已經導入那同時針對屠宰衛生的部分也做全方位的一個監管"},{"start":2332.099,"end":2359.618,"text":"在水資源的一個優化的部分我們在重要的灌溉水閘門已經佈置了相關的電子巡檢系統來輔助我們的這些水閘門的巡檢人員的一個作業那同時我們在波地的部分去強化土石流防災及應變決策的一個精準度透過GPAI的一個結合觀測站透過AI的判試來達到一個精準的一個判試"},{"start":2361.019,"end":2374.203,"text":"那從上面那幾個整個的智慧農業的精準運用其實我們現在農業部正在建立一個大數據的一個決策中心來精進我們農業的一個基本調查那最主要就是以時間的動態軸向"},{"start":2377.044,"end":2393.782,"text":"去提供全方面的一个服务然后透过地级作物跟农民之间的一个动态资料库的连结那未来希望说这样的一个连结能够有助于我们在前端的天然灾害勘灾的时候或者是为民服务的时候的一个有效的运用"},{"start":2394.807,"end":2418.127,"text":"第二個部分是在整個的一個穩定農產品供應順暢所建構的一個安全供應鏈的部分那我們都知道台灣是非洲豬園的肺疫區我們口蹄疫也是肺疫區那在這邊也非常高興的向委員說明我們今年度就在上個禮拜已經收到WHO的那個"},{"start":2418.948,"end":2445.223,"text":"科學委員會建議我們是傳統豬瘟的一個飛域區那這個訊息將會在5月的大會的時候會正式的會被WHO做認可那在禽流感防控的一個監測裡面透過我們防檢署的各項的作為然後很明顯的就是在111年的這種大幅的禽流感在112年已經有大幅的減少"},{"start":2445.683,"end":2455.09,"text":"那在這邊也跟各位報告在今年為止我們目前只有23場的一個前流感的疫情比去年有更精進的一個作為"},{"start":2456.482,"end":2475.989,"text":"那在環境友善推動的部分除了我們持續推動農藥風險減半的部分我們希望說在114年開始我們針對托福中退場以後我們整個農藥風險可以降到58%那同時配合農藥的10年減半我們推動了各項的IPM的操作作為"},{"start":2476.969,"end":2499.5,"text":"那同時也針對有機有膳去做持續的推動以及相關的產交履歷那有機有膳跟產交履歷都能夠確保我們的食材的安全然後透過這樣子的一個面積的一個推廣我們也將這些食材推進到學校的營養午餐目前學校的營養午餐利用三張EQ的覆蓋率已經達到98.7"},{"start":2502.441,"end":2519.137,"text":"冷面一直是大家所關注的要確保糧食就是農產品的一個品質的穩定那冷面是必要的那物理網路也是必要的所以人類物理我們持續在今年度甚至於在未來的四年還會持續的推動那"},{"start":2519.958,"end":2533.368,"text":"值得一提的就是我們結合了217家的農漁會然後提供了一個多元便利的一個服務那這樣的一個服務受到很多小農的一個好評那同樣的就是這些農產品我們也持續的"},{"start":2535.289,"end":2558.909,"text":"分散到其他的市場特別是我們也去爭取相關的高端市場那包括美國包括加拿大新加坡泰國越南菲律賓等都有不錯的一個成績那我們針對新品種進入市場准入的部分我們在113年度包括鳳梨已經可以准入到紐西蘭那相關的日本的部分包括"},{"start":2559.409,"end":2582.087,"text":"火龍果 紅龍的火龍果以及龍虎斑也可以順利進到日本市場那生煙豬肉也可以進到相關的新加坡的市場那第三個部分是有關於強化農業及農村發展支持體系的部分那除了我們持續的利用人力團來解決相關的這些臨時性的缺工問題以外"},{"start":2583.669,"end":2604.807,"text":"我們也專注在培育農業的經營能財那同時我們也運用相關的外國人力特別是我們向勞動部爭取到2萬人的一個外國人力那這些人力不只是可以在農糧領域、序程領域、林業領域那還有漁業領域都有一些相關的這些服務那"},{"start":2605.347,"end":2626.94,"text":"除了人力的協助以外我們也積極推動了相關的農業的機械化的部分那在113年我們已經成立了相關的農機的一個農事服務團22團那希望說透過這樣類似農機的Uber的概念能夠更能夠協助相關的農業機械的一個推動那在農民福利制度上面"},{"start":2629.195,"end":2655.05,"text":"包括農民健康保險農民職債保險跟農業保險以及農民退休儲金那在113年度都有相關的一個提升包括農民職業災害保險我們已經跟農保連結就是你要做農保的時候一定要同時去保農業職業災害保險那現在加保率大概84%那退休儲金的部分也越來越多人來參加那目前已經覆蓋率已經達到34%那在"},{"start":2659.54,"end":2685.768,"text":"最近大家都認為就是有關於農保的部分那在這邊也特別說明我們最近的研議的相關的一個政策就是配合國家能源政策我們研議放寬農保的一個資格的一個規定那整個調整方向包括就是你如果配合國家能源政策在自有加保地設置光定業者我們可以放寬可以維持他的農保資格那"},{"start":2686.927,"end":2703.989,"text":"這樣子的一個樣態大概有分為兩個部分一個部分就是如果依非都市土地管制規則的時候那你可以在你的土地設置再生能源的那個發電設施面積的660公頃那660公頃會導致你原來一分地不符合規"},{"start":2704.77,"end":2727.988,"text":"符合相關的一個加保規定那我們在這邊予以放寬可以讓他可以繼續去納保那第二個部分就配合漁電共生那原農保的保險人其實實際從事工作面積的不受0.1公頃的一個限制那我們希望說透過這樣的一個放寬能夠加速整個光電的一個進行那在生態資源"},{"start":2734.926,"end":2752.977,"text":"的部分包括兩個部分一個是產業的永續的部分那產業永續我們在林業的部分我們持續加強林下經濟的一個推動那目前為止已經公告了九項那我們會持續的去增加然後還有森林療癒的部分那在生態永續面的部分"},{"start":2753.897,"end":2780.151,"text":"包括我們持續針對45個保育軸帶跟44個關注區域然後建立跨機關的合作平台那特別是在林保署跟其他公司協力方面我們也開始去針對陸域的OCEM的部分去推動認證的一個方案那也擴大了生態的幾戶包括15戶包括黑酒農10種濱林物種及4種棲地的樣態來增加我們的生態的一個"},{"start":2783.514,"end":2784.278,"text":"服務給他給付"},{"start":2785.307,"end":2813.324,"text":"那在整個農村產業的發展是我們農業部這從農委會改制農業部以後非常重要的一個工作我們希望說去建構農村產業的一個永續發展然後透過相關的農村的培育相關的透過我們農村的產業創新以及政策的輔導之下那不管是在農村的休閒旅遊方面或者是在農村的人力在"},{"start":2814.144,"end":2840.003,"text":"回流再提升的部分我們都已經逐步的去建構相關的一個更多的一個服務量能那在公司協力部分一直是農業部門在積極推動特別是在淨零轉型部分那整個淨零轉型部分的土壤碳灰的部分都需要一些相關的方法學那現在目前我們已經有三個方法學是獲得通過的"},{"start":2840.703,"end":2861.338,"text":"那透過這樣的方法學未來就有相關的探全的一個可得到探全的一個可能性那我們也同時針對循環農業的技術研發還有一個農業永續ESG的一個商店然後希望說透過這樣的一個ESG的商店能夠加速公部門跟市部門的共同來推動淨零轉型那在114年推動重點在這邊"},{"start":2867.981,"end":2886.37,"text":"特別強調10個重點第一個部分就是我們糧食產業的全面升級計畫那這個糧食產業全面升級計畫不僅照顧了重道的農民也照顧了非重道配合政策做稻田轉作的農民那這個部分我想我們在今年開始推的話在"},{"start":2888.629,"end":2901.103,"text":"大概100多場的一個座談會裡面也獲得很多農民的一個好評那我們希望說持續透過這樣子的一個推動能夠讓我們的糧食安全更能夠獲得確保第二個部分是"},{"start":2902.711,"end":2923.366,"text":"我們強力的推動整個農業數位的整合服務那這個整合服務在行政面它可以服務農民也可以服務第一線的公所的農民因為第一線的公所農民都是接觸到農民的一個申請那我們希望說未來整個數位整合的時候能夠簡化我們第一線的工作人員的一個"},{"start":2925.627,"end":2952.126,"text":"人力的一個支出那同樣的我們透過數位整合也能夠提供更精準的產業的資訊以及相關的技術服務那在這邊也跟各位委員報告今年度開始我們會在適當的時間去宣布我們國內的這些作物我們會採用種植登記的一個制度那當我們這個數位整合服務建立以後再搭配我們的種植登記我相信我們就更能夠掌握到整個產銷的一個資訊"},{"start":2954.147,"end":2973.038,"text":"那第三個部分是精進相關的災害的救助制度在這邊我想各位委員都關心天然災害救助的時候的一個效率那還有就是這些品項的金額的調整所以我們在今年從去年開始"},{"start":2974.099,"end":3003.574,"text":"我們去年的年尾開始我們就持續的去邀集相關的單位去做討論然後增修了很多天氣的參數那這個天氣參數分為兩個一個是所謂的一個一個災害的天氣參數跟災損的天氣參數那災害的天氣參數能夠迅速的更快的能夠公告我們天然災害的品項那災損的參數就是未來如果是屬於災損的天氣參數的話那就不需要"},{"start":3004.294,"end":3026.793,"text":"進行限地的勘栽直接可以獲得相關的理賠那這樣的話就能夠很快的節省整個天然災害救助的一個效率那同時我們也針對各個作物的品項它本身的這些救助的金額我們也滾動式的檢討去符合它的相關的一個生產成本那同時也導入相關的一個農業的保險的精進"},{"start":3028.069,"end":3045.306,"text":"那寵物的食品寵物的一個動物保護的部分我想是以非常多的委員所關注的那在農業部在今年度有幾個重要的事情包括寵物食品的法制化特別是在磚牌的部分在去年度送到行政院以後現在目前已經"},{"start":3046.147,"end":3069.83,"text":"有相關的很多的一些意見回饋那我們會持續的去做相關的一個檢討跟溝通那第二部分我們要做的是有關於寵物分類分級的管理的部分那分類分級的管理才能夠讓我們的動物能夠寵物能夠受到標準的一個動物福利然後也能夠兼顧我們的公共的一個安全那另外在整個整個"},{"start":3070.931,"end":3094.161,"text":"寵物事業的一個輔導與管理我們也會強化相關的整個的一個產業的遊戲規則包括我們會推動寵物產業的定型化的契約然後也針對我們的寵物的美容師我們也會給予認證那未來寵物的這種所謂的保姆我們也會針對寵物保姆會做相關的一個職能的一個認證"},{"start":3096.043,"end":3099.851,"text":"希望說透過相關的這些政府的作為能夠讓整個寵物的產業能夠持續的往前"},{"start":3103.083,"end":3127.489,"text":"那第五個部分就是精進養牛產業的輔導那各位都知道其實我們台灣的牛奶它是一個品質非常好的那由於國外的一些牛奶的一個競爭那我們希望說透過在生產端在產品端在後市場端能夠全方位的來協助我們的弱農產業的一個升級轉型包括推動"},{"start":3129.27,"end":3144.332,"text":"滷牛的死亡保險然後淘汰滷牛的一個地產滷牛的淘汰那同樣的我們會將我們的鮮乳標章從現在的驗證標章改成證明標章那未來只有標示台灣鮮乳"},{"start":3145.453,"end":3168.689,"text":"或者是獲得產交履歷及CAS的標章的才能夠號稱為台灣鮮乳那如果沒有得到這三個標章的話都不能稱為台灣鮮乳那同樣的我們也協助了我們的酪農開發多重的這種乳品然後我們也會積極的協助這些小農成立自由的品牌然後推動到各項的一個通路"},{"start":3169.673,"end":3186.917,"text":"那在動植物檢疫方面我們都知道獸醫師在第一線的屠宰的工作是非常辛苦的那經過我們農業部多方的爭取以後那也獲得行政院的支持我們現在正在推動所謂的公職獸醫師不開業獎金因為現在寵物事業非常發達"},{"start":3191.298,"end":3208.245,"text":"受益師都會跑去做開業而不願意留在公職系統所以我們利用這樣的一個不開業獎金的誘因能夠希望說留住繼續留住我們的受益師那這個部分我想進行了非常順利現在已經進到行政院去做審議那我們希望說在"},{"start":3208.985,"end":3236.326,"text":"在一個月到兩個月之間就能夠正式公布的實施那同樣的植物診療師也順利的一個通過相關的法制作業那預計在今年的八月就會舉行第一次的國考那後續通過國考的部分就能夠確保整個植物診療師就是簡稱植物醫師的部分能夠更有他的一個權威性那同樣的我們除了正職人員我們也推動了"},{"start":3237.066,"end":3255.978,"text":"動物醫師助理認證制度希望透過這個助理認證制度來協助獸醫師的相關工作透過民間的結合還有課程的安排我們目前已經建立了大概1168次登錄的部分希望說後續可以做有效的加強"},{"start":3256.977,"end":3275.539,"text":"然後在漁業的部分漁業人權一直是我們所重視的那除了說漁業漁船這些漁船上岸以後的這些他的一個勞動的一個條件在船上的勞動條件跟他在上岸以後的這些福利制度我們都會持續的去加強"},{"start":3276.28,"end":3302.026,"text":"然後保障船員的勞動條件同時也建立系統性的一個薪資的一個給付的制度那我們希望說在今年度有一個薪資的一個電藏的互助的機制然後透過這樣的互助的機制我想船員就不再擔心船主他不要就是因為任何原因而不支付這個薪水給船員他有一個互助機制的話就能夠順利的得到他應有的一個薪資"},{"start":3303.186,"end":3324.444,"text":"那第八個部分是在有關於剩餘資源的循環中心的一個建制那我們都知道農業的過去是農業的廢棄物我們現在稱為農業的剩餘資材那每一年大概都有600多萬噸如果加上其他的大概有1000萬噸左右那這些剩餘資材其實可以做很有效的利用包括鳳梨"},{"start":3326.325,"end":3341.732,"text":"提煉的鳳梨渣、鳳梨纖維、鳳梨酵素然後甚至於牡蠣殼的部分都是一個非常成功的案例然後我們在今年度我們會投入相當多的預算去建立這個農業剩餘資源的一個循環中心能夠"},{"start":3342.732,"end":3366.394,"text":"讓這些剩餘資產回歸到農業使用減少資源的投入那也能夠跨域的供應它的永續材料那未來我想在產業的需求面的話我想我們會陸續的跟地方有興趣的不管是合作市長或是縣市政府去推動相關的一個區域循環中心那第九個部分是有關於整個農業部門空間的一個資源規劃"},{"start":3367.955,"end":3387.687,"text":"國土計畫裡面雖然說延後6年但是農業的一個相關的支持性的一個給付我們還是會持續推動包括生態環境給付包括確保糧食安全給付包括對地給付我們都會持續的精進去推動特別在生態環境給付的部分我們會更凸顯它對生態服務的一個價值"},{"start":3389.482,"end":3415.951,"text":"那持續的將農產品消防高端的市場也是一直農業部一直努力的一個目標那在整個新的做法我想我們會更精準的做產品的定位跟市場的區隔那第二個部分我們會更精準的去連結目標市場的這些通路因為唯有通路的有效鏈接才能夠讓我們農產品順利的外銷然後同樣的我們會擴大跟其他"},{"start":3417.091,"end":3420.339,"text":"跨領域的一個合作在國外做有效的一個行銷"},{"start":3421.806,"end":3450.435,"text":"那最後一部分我想很簡單的跟各位說明就是114年度的我們的整體預算是比去年增加了本來是增加83.1億後來因為立法院刪除了63億刪除了20億20.14億所以我們還有增加63.1億但是我要跟各位委員報告我們增加的預算是表示我們要做更多的事情而這更多的事情是也是回饋回應到委員的要求就是要"},{"start":3451.555,"end":3478.268,"text":"去爭取更多的經費來照顧我們農民那這個增加的經費裡面大概最主要是在整個的一個基礎建設的部分包括在這個剝地的這些土石流的一個防護的部分還有一個產業升級的部分那特別是在農民福利的部分我們也會做適度的一個加強特別在肥力的供應還有天然災害救助的部分我想我們就透過這些預算來做一個支持但是"},{"start":3479.068,"end":3500.209,"text":"很可惜的是在這次的立法院的預算裡面刪除了我們大概20.14億的部分那這個刪除的部分大概分為三部分包括我們的宣導費包括我們的旅費包括我們在特別收入基金減少了六九千萬那我先說旅費的部分各位都知道農業部有非常多的這些"},{"start":3501.25,"end":3528.681,"text":"這些地方是需要我們同仁去巡視的那包括我們農民天然災害的時候第一線我們要去勘災的時候我們就必須要及時的去勘災然後在山上在坡地有土石流的一些預警的時候我們的同仁也要到山上去然後森林的部分森林的火災的防範或森林的稻伐的部分也需要我們的護管人員到山上去巡視那這些東西都是需要國內的採取費"},{"start":3529.981,"end":3549.135,"text":"那國外的部分就誠如我剛才講的整個國外的本身的農產品外銷我們每一年都積極的在國外做相關的拓展那現在因為特別在國外禮業被通占60%以後那相關的我們的勢必相關的國外的一些的一些宣導跟參展就會受到很大的影響"},{"start":3549.875,"end":3565.093,"text":"那業務宣傳也是一樣特別是土石流防災預警的一個宣導那還有一個非洲豬瘟邊境的非洲豬瘟的宣導都需要一些相關的費用那這邊在特別跟委員報告雖然說"},{"start":3567.506,"end":3594.424,"text":"那個公務預算有一筆撥補到基金去雖然說只刪了9000萬看起來好像很少但是我要跟委員報告就是當你的公務預算撥補到基金如果有被刪除的時候那未來基金就不能動用第二預備金那我舉一個很簡單的例子我們的天然災害我們往年都是編27億28億左右那去年因為上個颱風我們天然災害"},{"start":3598.286,"end":3625.736,"text":"協助農民救助的有達到76億到78億換句話說我們原來的天然災害的資金不夠基金不夠的時候我們可以向行政院徵請第二預備金像去年就申請了40億的第二相關的相關的經費那也因為這樣的一個一個刪減導致說後續我們在基金的運作的時候都沒有辦法再動用第二預備金那往年"},{"start":3626.876,"end":3642.882,"text":"觀察我往年我們的基金大概每一年都需要大概在撥補大概31到50億左右那這樣的情形我想我們還是會持續努力去向行政院徵取其他管道的一個經費但是這樣的一個三點真的造成我們非常大的一個困擾"},{"start":3644.144,"end":3663.375,"text":"那第二個部分是有關於財劃法的部分在這邊也要跟委員說明我們如果針對財劃法現在目前所刪減的以農業部推估的影響金大概是在240億左右那扣掉我們的相關的醫法律義務支出其實我們可用的大概只有520億那這520億裡面我們本來做的非常多為民"},{"start":3668.437,"end":3684.683,"text":"基礎建設農業的基礎建設還有農民的福利那因為也因為經費移撥了以後但是相當的業務並沒有隨著經費的移撥而移轉這個包括很多肥料的一個補貼包括用電的一個補貼"},{"start":3685.903,"end":3710.011,"text":"這些東西過去都是農業部主動去爭取的那在基礎建設來講我們特別是我們的很多農水路那這種跨縣市的農水路整合更為重要那智商防洪更不要講了整體的智商防洪跟系統性的治水也會因為這樣的一個財務法對於我們經費的輸出也會受到影響那還有房檢業的部分也是一個非常重要而且"},{"start":3711.011,"end":3725.246,"text":"必須要中央來做的所以今年度的財務法雖然已經通過那今年度後續要怎麼處理我們目前還不是很了解但是可以確定的就是我們在115年的時候我們就要簡列我們的預算的一個編列"},{"start":3726.067,"end":3751.344,"text":"那這個部分我想到時候還要請各位委員能夠支持我們農業部的一個預算的一個編列那最後其實農業部一直是希望讓臺灣的農業成為永續韌性的一個產業也一直希望讓我們的農民成為一個高度專業的一個職位那我們希望說未來持續透過智慧韌性永續安心的四個軸面來加速我們農業的一個發展以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝部長"},{"start":3756.621,"end":3761.877,"text":"這個天然災害沒有辦法用預備金是很嚴重的事這件事可能要想一下"},{"start":3763.575,"end":3791.18,"text":"好我們現在進行詢答委員諮詢前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點40分截止發言登記那我們今天就照到上午10點的時候我們可能休息一下我們會休息個30分鐘我們先讓大家知道一下所以這個"},{"start":3792.04,"end":3808.929,"text":"大家質詢的時間在在自行注意好我們現在請登記第一位好來拍誰拍誰各位委員上次揮一絲路有錯誤沒有好好一絲路確定好我們現在請登記第一位林戴華委員發言有請部長請部長"},{"start":3822.646,"end":3845.682,"text":"好 部長 兩大議題 第一個繼續關心非營利犬貓血庫推動的議題 第二個針對台灣豬續產的一個狀態跟您做討論 第一個我是非常感謝您 您是親自處理非營利犬貓的血庫平台的一個建置但是有一個重點是"},{"start":3845.962,"end":3864.971,"text":"建立推廣總部去杜絕血液的交易那現在呢你們是要本部本部自己做那也沒有問題是由房檢署自行來管理所以呢你下面有很多分部那我要提醒部長這個政策的成敗就是在於推廣"},{"start":3865.891,"end":3892.268,"text":"跟教育事主因為他不會像人一樣自己來捐血所以包括你怎麼讓目標的這個可以這個目標有潛力也願意有誘因鼓勵這些大型的這個事主願意帶出他的狗狗或貓貓出來當來捐血這件事情就非常的重要我先提點你你現在有150個已經晶片"},{"start":3895.182,"end":3902.465,"text":"你的狗狗你如何從這個已經現有的資料庫當中去跟這些事主宣導以及一些什麼相關的一個鼓勵措施讓他願意來跟你們來做配合是不是你願意聽他做一些全面的健檢這個也是一個免費健檢類似這樣然後進而跟他推廣這個是對狗狗是好的對貓貓是好的"},{"start":3921.271,"end":3927.216,"text":"然後進而你要跟誰來做結合你要跟獸醫師學會所有全國的動保團體它結合你們的房檢署本身就要做這樣的一個整合平台不管對有潛力的這些大型的巨型的犬"},{"start":3943.13,"end":3956.242,"text":"或者是貓的飼主來做宣導另外一個誰要來協助你推廣你的民間的力量全部都要做整合這個才是你今天這個競選總部你要放在你的房間署署本部當中要做這個總部的平台當中最重要的關鍵好我這邊就提點那下一個重點是我們的豬續產"},{"start":3963.408,"end":3985.778,"text":"好 租蓄產這個部分我個人要對房間署的同仁給予大大的暗聲讚這是一個真的不容易的工作在部長您的提點當中今年5月將成為亞洲唯一喔哇 這個實在太棒了或者亞洲唯一能夠去獲得豬瘟口蹄疫非洲豬瘟三大重大病株的"},{"start":3986.138,"end":4011.041,"text":"非異國 這真的是我要給你拍拍手 真是不容易這個從邊境的管制 防疫 極疫的防治 民間的宣導的繁重工作 這個是房間署同輪中是功不可沒也就是說好 我們打開國際市場是已經具備全亞洲唯一我可以去這個出口我的這個租資的這樣的一個國家好"},{"start":4011.901,"end":4026.248,"text":"第二個 那我們到底生產效益有沒有偏低呢 如果像雞你幾乎都沒有優化的空間了 我們只好進口豬有沒有呢 這張表 我們的這個離乳率從這個離乳率當中70%而已 也就是說我能夠生的"},{"start":4033.231,"end":4056.03,"text":"的這個鋰乳之後呢 我能夠養的也不過是70.9%而已 養成的 只能70.9%我們近年來呢 雖從西方營種 他的鋰乳豬的頭數幅度增幅不大但是呢 我們的豬肉的育成率是降低的 這句話什麼意思我能夠"},{"start":4058.074,"end":4063.048,"text":"這個養的頭數增幅不大但是能夠活得成的"},{"start":4064.645,"end":4077.435,"text":"降低了所以呢而導致我國每公斤的豬肉的成本在跟國際一些領先水準的國家譬如說美國右上角這張圖很明顯就是在我們的最上面紅色的部分是我國你看到2022年我們每頭豬可以將近80塊的豬肉成本那最下面那個淺綠色的就是美國他才62塊 60幾塊而已"},{"start":4091.425,"end":4110.357,"text":"所以將近20的差距啊這樣的一個生產成本效益好那我們有沒有高度優化的空間當然有你看這張圖是本辦公室整理出來的我們國際一流的水準的這個種族的這個國家包括前段包括台灣平均水 國際一流我就以剛才的那張圖這個"},{"start":4113.837,"end":4126.123,"text":"美國跟這個西班牙那以前段的我就以德國好為主你看我們的育成率我們的育成率國際醫療88%前段的88%我們才70%而已如果我育成包括他的成本從第一段的成本65%只有65塊我們竟然可以高達77塊"},{"start":4137.088,"end":4141.411,"text":"好我們再來看這個數字喔我的年拍賣所得我的再看左邊這個母豬的這個總母豬的這個頭數我50萬隻我50萬隻同樣的50萬隻德國可以多少拍賣總值1億2800多萬同樣50萬隻我的拍賣才827萬差了多少460億同樣50萬隻好那我的這個這個拍賣獲利同樣的50萬隻德國就能夠"},{"start":4168.389,"end":4189.988,"text":"4500多億的的獲利我們才950多億有沒有空間 當然有啊好 包括所以呢連拍賣所得我們維持台灣現有的母豬有增加461產值我就跟德國比一樣50萬隻我的獲利我可以360萬以上的獲利就供給自主面來講良好的總員跟管理我整體總母豬維持在37萬豬就夠了你看左邊那張圖"},{"start":4194.412,"end":4207.86,"text":"到這個前段班的第二個37萬的總租你看到右邊我的年拍賣的總值年拍賣的上市投數你看喔在我的前段班的第二個上市投數是800"},{"start":4209.961,"end":4211.984,"text":"47萬846萬就國內但是我們國內呢只要735萬投訴所以我養37萬隻我就可以打比你現在的上市在市場上交易的還多出100多萬"},{"start":4226.743,"end":4237.145,"text":"所以我甚至都可以補足3%的進口肉類另外所以發展國內的循環育種的系統之下整體產業有望是朝千億的同樣的37萬 同樣的50萬我都有千億的價值在拍賣獲利上都有360億以上的拍賣獲利所以這句話是重點"},{"start":4248.368,"end":4251.692,"text":"台灣的是熱帶的國家我們很厲害 我們長期育種所以我們台灣的種族是耐熱的所以我只要提高它的育成率就夠了從78% 88%我有注意到您的這個簡報您是現在育種率提高7%"},{"start":4267.009,"end":4282.838,"text":"但是我們目標就88就好了你7再增加到18就夠了不管你的成本降低 你的拍賣總數 你的上市投入 你的拍賣獲利我們就可以出口了部長這就是您可以大力推動的好"},{"start":4284.099,"end":4288.221,"text":"那怎麼做我們有個條件的優勢在哪裡看左邊這張圖這張圖的樹狀圖紅色的樹狀圖是代表的我飼養的廠家這10年來2013年到2023年這當中我的廠家一直下降好你看綠色的平均規模我廠家下降但是我飼養的頭數是增加的"},{"start":4305.168,"end":4317.238,"text":"表示廠跟廠之間整合的時代大型化已經來進行了所以表示你在推動你的AI智慧育種的情況之下你相關的這個政策就可以更容易導入人家說電腦可以經營"},{"start":4320.921,"end":4324.923,"text":"所以現在的AI大數據生物科技當中當然可以用基因來達成電腦可以來經營所以這是世界先進國家現在的進行制我們現在才剛開始所以目前國際先進的國家均已導入了而且持續進行將基因檢定應用在豬隻的選育配種最後具體要求兩個"},{"start":4343.792,"end":4358.958,"text":"第一個請農業部既然你們已經組織單位平台是在房檢署請農業部房檢署提出具體的非營利犬貓雪菇平台的限制內容管理機制及對應的推廣計畫這是第一個訴求第二個請農業部提出"},{"start":4360.679,"end":4374.41,"text":"國家租資續產產業政策這個是你可以出口的第一個參考國際租資生產效益領先國家提出國家租資續產效益提升策略第二個構思由市場競爭機制帶動續產的產業的升級提高我國整體續產的競爭力所以如果你能夠再協調台糖"},{"start":4381.696,"end":4400.929,"text":"整個兩萬多隻的種豬現在的進口你就馬上導入你這個剛才講的這個整個AI的相關智慧的養殖智慧的育種以及基因檢定之後台糖做其他的大廠一定跟著做或者他沒有競爭力只有透過市場競爭機制來提高我們的產業升級進入我們整體的續產競爭力來提升好這邊我們要求"},{"start":4407.113,"end":4428.127,"text":"除了兩週內初步來給我來本席辦公室回覆之外因為這個續產的部分我已經溝通台堂了包括你們相關的同仁這我都做完了3月31號給我給我這兩個方向其實是有共識但是針對第一跟第二整體來講我希望納入第十一屆第四會期的業務報告你這邊的業務報告有針對你的這個施政成果"},{"start":4432.41,"end":4452.673,"text":"我希望下一次是這兩個施政成果要強限第二個 你的夏惠琦的施政成果當中的施政推動重點因為我怕什麼 你房檢局現在給我訂的時候 署長不配合署長不配合 你很積極署長不配合那不就完蛋了嗎所以要變成重要的施政重點 部長可以嗎"},{"start":4453.729,"end":4467.942,"text":"我想謝謝委員的這兩個議題這個議題我想第一個我非常支持特別是非營利雪庫的成敗就是對市主的宣導所以這個部分我想我們應該要有一個非常好的宣導機制才能夠落實"},{"start":4468.803,"end":4491.974,"text":"然後有關於那個現在目前雖然是房檢署做那是起頭後續可能就會回歸到願意來協助的一起來努力然後有關於第二個部分租資的部分的預成率他跟他的離乳率跟喪失率是有關的當然那這兩個部分我想我們會努力的去把它弄但是我可不可以請求委員因為你說兩個禮拜我不喜歡就是"},{"start":4492.594,"end":4520.02,"text":"我支持但是我可以說一定要納入下會期第四會期的業務報告裡面跟本委員但是也希望給我們一個月的時間因為我不希望兩個禮拜會變成應付式的提供委員我希望說有一個比較好的一個討論好 部長非常好我們就照部長的這樣指示來作業好 謝謝但是下一屆我們下會期當中這兩項你就要提出你的施政重點喔還有你的這個推動成果好 謝謝 以上"},{"start":4521.684,"end":4546.09,"text":"好謝謝林黛華委員那下一位我們請邱益穎委員質詢謝謝主席我請一下那個陳部長好請部長"},{"start":4552.677,"end":4580.296,"text":"部長好部長我想這個每一次農業部都會把你們未來的工作跟過去所推動的業務都報導的非常詳細但最近有一個新聞我想還是要趁這個機會是不是讓部長來說明一下現在地方各地農會各地區的農民都非常緊張因為有國民黨的委員說配合租地種電就會喪失農保資格他說政府對於老農養套殺"},{"start":4582.818,"end":4591.264,"text":"那到底這件事情是不是真的同時間我們看到去年在審查預算提案的時候國民黨的馬文君委員說"},{"start":4593.327,"end":4612.122,"text":"農業部對種電的農民沒有取消他的農保資格但是對於其他有營利事業登記證的農民是把他取消資格很顯然在這件事情上面就有人在造謠了到底農地種電會不會被取消資格 這是一件事情"},{"start":4613.26,"end":4641.428,"text":"政府有沒有對老農養套殺這是另外一件事情這是第二件事情第三件事情我其實更想知道就是說在我們現在一直不斷的在推動無法耕作的這些老農他如果願意把他的農地釋出不管是去種電或者是租給青農協助青農能夠真正實質從事農業耕作但是因為你們現在配合審計部的這個調查是不是會導致"},{"start":4643.308,"end":4669.171,"text":"地主跟租約的這些實耕者關係惡化那這個問題要怎麼解決部長來給您時間回答好 謝謝委員我這邊還是要去強調就是整個的一個農保的資格其實要加入農保的人都知道他必須要有一分地然後要處置一重農那相對的就程度剛才委員所提到的"},{"start":4670.272,"end":4693.054,"text":"65歲以上的老農我們是鼓勵他把農地租給青年農民所以在這個部分其實我們已經放寬了他的土地就不需要再擁有0.1分地所以他就沒有所謂的農保因為地不夠的問題所以65歲以上的農民他租給人家他的農保資格不會喪失嗎即使是租給種電的也不會喪失嗎對是都不會喪失所以這個就是很清楚的"},{"start":4693.815,"end":4708.488,"text":"一定要一定要澄清我覺得這個農業部也要去做一個澄清對這個我想我們一定澄清就是65歲以上的老農是完全不會受到影響這是要特別去澄清的然後第二個部分就是65歲以下的部分就誠如剛才檢報我講的"},{"start":4710.269,"end":4728.383,"text":"我們為了配合國家能源政策那你的土地如果租給光電業者的時候你的土地的持份如果土地的擁有不到一分地的時候我們也讓他能夠繼續擁有農保所以後續也不會對這個配合光電政策的也不會受到影響"},{"start":4730.248,"end":4753.205,"text":"部長我覺得像這些很奇怪農業的東西啊 謠言很快就會散佈然後搞到所有的農民人心惶惶我認為像這個應該農業部要很快速的回擊或者是很快速的反應但是你們現在的快速反應呢會出現一個很大的落差就是你們的預算被砍你們的宣傳預算被砍我現在要跟您談到的是"},{"start":4759.744,"end":4787.25,"text":"你的轄下的業務費被砍了你的預算差旅費被砍了宣傳預算也被砍了差旅費被砍很多人覺得差旅費被砍沒什麼差旅費被砍是我很在意啊為什麼因為你們要隨時下鄉啊你們要隨時下鄉不管是勘栽不管是協助農民種植你的農改廠隨時都要去協助農民做農業的技術的改良嘛你差旅費被砍"},{"start":4788.69,"end":4801.695,"text":"怎麼樣去幫助農民那你以後叫你這些同仁是怎麼樣走路去還是騎腳踏車去未來怎麼樣去勘栽你現在現在的天氣變化這麼大"},{"start":4804.295,"end":4825.322,"text":"屏東的芒果已經只開花不結果慢慢的會往上延伸會到高雄到台南是這些看災要不要看玉荷包今年去年年底的時候花開得很漂亮現在開始發現問題了只開花不結果要不要去看災怎麼去看災這個預算這樣被砍還有您剛剛講到的你的這個錢"},{"start":4831.748,"end":4849.924,"text":"業務費被刪了以後你們不能去申請基金的撥補基金就撥補過來他們說基金撥補過來沒問題啊可是你不能申請預備金啊去年的農損總共你申請預備金撥補多少錢去年天然災害的話撥補的將近40億撥補了40億那今年預算這樣被砍的話"},{"start":4855.373,"end":4869.821,"text":"你一毛錢都申請不到對 二倍金就不能一 相關預算法是不可以的按照預算法一毛錢都申請不到是那怎麼辦所以我們只能你要怎麼處理我們只能向行政院祈求風調雨順颱風永遠都不會來哇 第一個我要還是要去擲筊"},{"start":4871.192,"end":4893.489,"text":"我跟委員報告就是過去委員都知道這件事情所以我們的基金公務撥補基金大概都不會被刪那這次被刪了以後真的是對二倍金影響那二倍金不能的話我們只能再看行政院有沒有其他的方面的一個基金或者是像我覺得行政院能夠救助的方法都救助了然後在經濟委員會裡頭其實我們在經濟委員會裡頭我們是沒有刪這個錢的"},{"start":4897.432,"end":4924.898,"text":"每一個委員在現場的委員包括國民黨的委員大家都說來自農業縣大家對農業都是支持是沒有刪這個錢的啊為什麼到了院會到了富坤崎所領導的黨團就會把這個錢刪掉那未來我們要怎麼樣協助農民去處理第三個這個錢的問題還小事啊台灣的農產品被他們說的一文不值啊"},{"start":4926.209,"end":4950.184,"text":"部長我給你看一個這個是民國86年的專欄報導當時的農委會說要把台灣的水果走向精品路線所以呢現在我們台灣的農民很認真很努力啊一直希望能夠把台灣的水果打向世界舞台打向國際舞台你看到人家日本細張哈密瓜兩顆賣300萬日元"},{"start":4953.357,"end":4977.752,"text":"紅葡萄一串賣160萬日元芒果兩顆賣60萬日元這是精品走向這是精品走向但是不是每一顆都是這樣賣啦對不對是這個也是台灣希望有一天我們的我們的水果也是能站在日本的精品市場不是嗎是這是我們努力的目標好結果你看一下"},{"start":4979.844,"end":4993.592,"text":"我們外銷日本的水果銷量是成長比如說去年跟2016比我們的出口銷量是大幅增加547%可是我們的金額只有成長232%"},{"start":4997.046,"end":5015.876,"text":"鳳梨外銷日本9年成長了16倍總共成長了1614%但是我們的金額只增加了1469換句話說我們只有拼量沒有拼到價錢"},{"start":5018.092,"end":5037.481,"text":"這跟我們當時想要做的其實是相違背嘛部長 你這樣懂我的意思嗎我知道因為天災 因為天氣冷 香蕉長不出來所以香蕉價格貴還竟然被國民黨的王宏威說這是詐騙他說香蕉怎麼可以這麼貴台灣的香蕉怎麼可以這麼貴你知道 岐山的蕉農聽了內心都在淌血啊"},{"start":5048.479,"end":5076.568,"text":"不緊張的話就很悲哀啊買這個介紹也不是他要的 市場沒用 你當然介紹就管嘛結果他跟你說 香蕉不能這麼貴還有人說要去引進廉價的香蕉進來到底是誰在破壞台灣的農業啊到底是誰在殺害台灣的農業啊我直接用殺害兩個字 不是損害而已 是殺害啊"},{"start":5078.68,"end":5087.886,"text":"不然像現在你要怎麼做我跟委員報告齁就是在我們經濟委員會的委員包括國民黨包括民進黨包括任何政黨"},{"start":5089.841,"end":5114.702,"text":"對農業夠了解當你對農業不夠了解才會講這樣子的一個話當我們農民受到天然災害的時候那相關的這些量太少的時候就算他價格比較高也沒辦法滿足他的過往的收入啊是啊所以這個部分我們一定是堅持絕對不會從類似的其他的水果我們也不會從其他的國家去進口來打擊我們自己的農民"},{"start":5116.272,"end":5138.551,"text":"所以我是覺得這樣 就是說有一些人對農業不了解的還是要多讀點書 或者是到鄉下去走一走或者是農業部你們應該利用宣傳的時候讓大家多一點了解這個農業知識可是很可惜你們的宣傳經費也被砍了 所以不懂的人還是不懂"},{"start":5139.817,"end":5158.796,"text":"那我們希望能夠把台灣的水果推向國際不只是只有量我們希望那個價錢要把它拉高你要讓農民真的能夠透過外銷可以多賺一點錢可以賺得到錢這個是我們一直在努力的目標所以我想"},{"start":5160.223,"end":5177.966,"text":"預算被砍未來的這個災損的補助到底從何而來這個我們還需要一直努力啊那我不知道國民黨的委員願不願意協助願不願意去跟他們的副坤崎總召說放過農民一馬"},{"start":5180.173,"end":5193.017,"text":"放過農民一馬幫幫台灣的農業如果他們願意我們可以在這裡給他拍拍手如果不願意那他們很顯然就是扼殺台灣農業的幫兇啊我必須要講這麼重的話部長好謝謝邱議員委員那"},{"start":5205.236,"end":5229.853,"text":"我們下一位請張家俊委員發言但是我可能要拜託楊瓊英委員幫我代理主席然後一直到張祺凱委員後就休息好不好好等一下先開始主席我想請部長好請部長"},{"start":5238.696,"end":5253.027,"text":"部長早安那電價審議委員會後天就要召開了那根據目前釋出的訊息跟中央政府的態度來看漲電價幾乎已成定局部長您怎麼看待這樣一再的調漲的趨勢"},{"start":5255.253,"end":5282.5,"text":"我想有關電價的調漲那以農業部照顧農民的一個立場那在上次電價調漲的時候我們就向行政院積極的爭取相關的農民用電的優惠能夠持續然後電價的差價能夠做補貼所以我們在114年度這個部分當初本集也有提醒您但是我想要知道的是會不會也讓農業部承受不少的壓力呢"},{"start":5284.162,"end":5300.215,"text":"我想電價有關於電價有它相關的一個定價的機制但是價格一旦出來的時候如果對我們農民有影響我們一定會去爭取額外的經費來繼續協助我們的農民所以部長是可以在這裡承諾說農電與電的用電並不會因此受到波及嗎是這個意思嗎您剛剛講的意思就是您會願意補貼它我們願意就是"},{"start":5311.523,"end":5322.789,"text":"這次如果電價有如果有任何的調整的時候那需要的這些有關於農民優惠的部分電價的差價的部分我們會持續向行政院再遵循相關的經費"},{"start":5324.045,"end":5335.471,"text":"是因為這不只是數字上的變化對於農民漁民這是最基本的生計像是農田裡的抽水機啊 溫網式的電力設備包括漁民的冷凍庫增揚機這些都是維持他們生產不可或缺的設施喔那所以假設電價一旦調漲那成本就會明顯的墊高對基層的這些農漁民影響非常的大那我也希望說請教部長喔"},{"start":5352.699,"end":5359.645,"text":"就是說針對農電漁電的補助今年共編列了多少錢24.26億刪除以後24.26億 本來是25點多 是是是請問這個數字是有包含預估今年會漲價的結果嗎"},{"start":5369.773,"end":5385.105,"text":"沒有沒有所以農業部現在就是打算追加預算希望行政院補助我們是嗎我想現在的電價是不是調整我不知道那過往其實農業部有一些經費可以在內部挪動"},{"start":5385.825,"end":5395.735,"text":"但是很可惜的今年就被刪了20億然後又被凍結了你今年不是有增加83億嗎我看你自己整體1609億增加到1693億我們增加的預算有增加新的工作不是說工作沒增加錢增加了"},{"start":5404.344,"end":5410.028,"text":"我知道你很努力 但我想要知道的是針對這一波漲價 農業部到底要怎麼因應呢假設他是漲一塊的話 你是要補貼他是撥補他0.5塊還是會補足 就是那個percentage你大概會補足讓他實際動漲還是說只是部分的補貼"},{"start":5427.359,"end":5449.73,"text":"我想我們會跟過去的政策是一樣的就是針對優惠的部分針對價差的部分我們會去做一個相關的補貼這是我個人的期待就是補到什麼程度是全補嗎還是就是價差就是它原來農業用電有原來農業用電的那個嘛然後你帳的部分的價差你就全合補助的意思這是我們期待啦就等於是它如果漲一塊你就補一塊這是你的目標"},{"start":5453.292,"end":5456.994,"text":"我的目標但是這也要看經費的來源這個我們會持續的去爭取你這樣子我也聽了比較安心因為在包括養殖業運營的成本當中電費就佔了將近兩成至三成然後包括家禽類也是一樣包括這個小雞的孵化 恆溫的設施都需要大量的用電如果沒有辦法動漲的話勢必要轉嫁到消費者的身上轉嫁到成本"},{"start":5482.987,"end":5501.87,"text":"那大家都最怕的就是這些價錢包括雞蛋 飆升然後這個農產品的冷藏倉儲的環節亦然如果基本民生物資都漲價了最將所有的物價都相加劇這個通膨的壓力所以這個部分"},{"start":5503.584,"end":5524.585,"text":"非常嚴重是因為漲價 這些物價都漲了可是農民實際上他是沒有賺到如果你不把他這個價差去補貼的話 農民漁民甚至是畜牧業的農民他沒有辦法 他連這個價差他沒有不是說他好像有賺到一個價差他是反而可能他還要成本更高 然後他"},{"start":5525.846,"end":5541.752,"text":"消費者買貴了他們反而還賠錢了這是一個非常嚴重的後果就是我們對於農業的那個優惠用電跟價差補貼的政策不會改變我們會朝這個目標就算他電量有調整的時候我們會爭取努力去爭取經費"},{"start":5542.572,"end":5551.578,"text":"對 部長我還是想提醒您 農民不是數字上的受補對象而是真正養活我們臺灣2300萬人的人那電價的調漲是攸關整個臺灣整體的能源政策的問題但是農業漁業的用電是關係到我們臺灣整個糧食安全的問題那人與食為天 所以"},{"start":5565.106,"end":5580.817,"text":"希望農業部要能夠扛起這個責任喔然後守護這些農民讓他們可以安心的種田安心的養殖那我非常感謝部長今天喔告訴我這麼有魄力告訴我說你願意喔價差多少就去努力爭取到"},{"start":5582.038,"end":5605.954,"text":"補足這個價差讓農民漁民實際可以電費動漲這一點我想是一件非常好的消息那當然我接下來還想要問有關於農民職災保險的比例過低這件事情那這個訊息其實昨天我在路上遇到部長的時候我有跟部長稍微討論了一下就是說不只您是整個農業部的相關單位都能重視這個問題"},{"start":5612.338,"end":5637.196,"text":"那農民很多都苦笑說 保農民職財保險沒用啦 根本就賠不賠償這是要保要幹什麼 真的農會也苦不堪言說 哎呀一直想要推這個農民職業災害保險 結果農民一出事情 案子送上去很多都卡關 層層卡關最後他們自己要去面對農民 一直道歉很難推動 那"},{"start":5639.137,"end":5649.561,"text":"農民職業災害保險到現在已經推動了7年截至113年6月底投保人數是34萬人對於這個投保人數部長你滿意嗎我希望實際從事農業的現在目前實際從事農業有49萬人所以我就希望說所有實際從事農業人都能夠加保農民職業災害保險是這也是我們共同的期待那我剛剛講的故事就是為什麼"},{"start":5667.087,"end":5683.679,"text":"我想要講的故事我提供一個不是故事是真實案例喔有好幾個那其中一個真實案例我非常難過就是有一個老農他如常的去下田結果一整天沒回家家人去找他已經倒在田中了那救護車來的時候送到醫院已經死亡了"},{"start":5687.361,"end":5713.852,"text":"那醫院也無能為力他就是他沒有在院中死亡只好把他送回他家那送回他家再請在地的醫生來開證明那醫生怎麼寫他就寫死因是高血壓部長你知道高血壓在醫學上是慢性病是一種危險因子但是他不是可以直接作為死亡主因的診斷那我們的農民每天風吹日曬雨淋勞力沉重有可能是過勞引發的結果"},{"start":5716.693,"end":5744.453,"text":"家屬去申請這個農民職災保險就被否決了 理由是高血壓是慢性病不能算是一種職災那部長這不是一個單一的醫療判斷問題而是整套制度在這個關鍵時刻選擇要不要去處理 要不要去承認那農民死在田裡卻沒有人去認定他是在工作中死亡喔所以這一點可不可以請部長指示一下說未來我們的農民應該怎麼做呢"},{"start":5746.781,"end":5768.991,"text":"我跟委員說明就是當農民職業災害你要發生出險的時候他的病因必須要有因果關係那現在我們有一部分是正面表列的那正面表列相對單純那有一些不是正面表列的部分那那個東西可以用個案的部分去認定正面表列有哪一些呢"},{"start":5770.983,"end":5789.762,"text":"這個資料我再提供給您好是不是提供給我辦公室然後第二個部分就是他如果在田裡發生那這個部分因為他已經送到醫院去了所以也能夠舉證他是在從事農業操作的時候那他可以減負一些"},{"start":5791.864,"end":5817.795,"text":"證據那這個證據包括他的醫生判斷的那個原因那他們可以用個案的方式去去研判他的一個情況是所以本席覺得說部長你說個案我就覺得這就是您的這個這個愛心了因為呢您有愛心就好像那天我在院會我說你農業部不能只有你一個人有愛心有態度你上上下下要一致嘛假設"},{"start":5819.096,"end":5846.534,"text":"沒有到你這個層級就沒有辦法個案處理它就是變成一個制度問題所有案子都可以個案處理就是正面表列的就可以個案處理假設沒有呢就是說我希望這個制度不能冷漠然後我們整個農業部的上上下下要能夠站在體恤農民的這種角度上那我再舉一個例子不好意思喔主席就是再一下下農民去關這個農用的戳水馬達"},{"start":5848.838,"end":5863.717,"text":"結果死了死在他去關這個農用的抽水馬達結果他也要領職業災害保險理由被退回說因為抽水馬達不是農地所以這樣也不能准許 這個是怎麼辦呢"},{"start":5866.182,"end":5880.771,"text":"我還是說就是說他在農業的這些操作的行為他可以去做舉證跟他的一個死因醫生的死因那這個如果沒有在正面表列的話他們就會用專案的方式去研判這個東西不是用"},{"start":5881.471,"end":5902.665,"text":"一個一個案 就是說像非正面表列的都是用個案的方式我們有110家的方面的醫療等等可以來解釋我這樣子講啦最重要是假設以勞保作為舉例如果跟農民職業災害保險的職災保險來做死亡給付的話這個比例喔比例其實是"},{"start":5904.206,"end":5923.792,"text":"老保可以給付的是兩倍以上所以變成說農業職業災害保險的死亡給付是過低的所以我想要提醒部長的是這個部分希望部長能夠有同理心怎麼樣你的政令表列是不是可以增加或者是其他特殊案例是不是有一些案例可以舉證讓這一些"},{"start":5926.413,"end":5941.821,"text":"辦公的不管是你農業部的職員也好或者是這個農會的職員也好甚至是各大縣市政府或者是公所的職員也好他們有一個因應的案例讓他們有所適從能夠去協助農民而不是他問公所公所問我們怎樣"},{"start":5947.183,"end":5972.431,"text":"還要補一補報告農業部才會知道這一點我希望部長可以做一個就是指示讓他們可以更加的仔細去把這個範例甚至他整個內容就是正面表列可以做清楚好嗎第一個部分正面表列的部分我們會持續檢討能夠納入正面表列相對單純我們就把它納進去然後不是正面表列的部分我們會用過去的這些案例能夠讓"},{"start":5974.216,"end":5995.555,"text":"這些可能會用到的人民去了解因為很多個案就會成為一個他們非正面表列的一個判例沒錯這個判例如果可以多幾個判例讓地方上上下下大家都知道的話這樣子農民才會安心否則他去問他可能去問公所的農業課結果課員說我也不知道我也沒處理過要怎麼處理所以這一點特別拜託部長好嗎謝謝"},{"start":6002.27,"end":6013.332,"text":"我還是說明一下 因為整個的審查核定的是勞保局的部分但是國安部一定是用服務的立場你要提供多一點要提供多一點案例 讓他可以有這個好 謝謝好 請楊秋津 楊委員謝謝主席 楊秋津發言 請主委 部長"},{"start":6038.7,"end":6064.509,"text":"委員長 部長好我們來討論零關稅的乳品輸台那從2025年紐西蘭與台澎金馬個別關稅領域經濟合作協定全面的生效換句話說紐西蘭液態乳可以零關稅來進口那台灣不管是因氣候的變遷成本增加本土的糯糯的發展勢必會受到衝擊"},{"start":6068.99,"end":6090.451,"text":"除了目前政府宣布未來進口液態爐它不可以標示鮮乳這也是我們上個會期大家一直努力討論的所以國產的鮮乳則必須要取得鮮乳標章CAS產銷履歷等才可以標示為鮮乳的鮮乳標章機制之外"},{"start":6091.392,"end":6109.56,"text":"請教農業部對於因應零關稅爐品的衝擊有什麼評估如何的來保障我們本土落農有什麼機制請做說明謝謝委員關心整個的一個爐品的一個因為你現在輸入那我第一個部分先提供一個數據"},{"start":6110.96,"end":6126.69,"text":"紐西蘭本身它零關稅以後它進來的那它過往大概是13300多噸其實它進來的品項是以薄酒乳居多薄酒乳占了70%然後30%是鮮乳這是第一件事情那第一件事情就是"},{"start":6127.35,"end":6146.122,"text":"我們其實在面對其他的國家的鮮乳進來的乳品進來的時候一個非常重要的就是我們要讓他的品牌做區隔化所以我們針對有鮮乳標章以前是檢驗標章我們現在擺了改成證明標章有台灣鮮乳證明標章有產銷履歷"},{"start":6147.483,"end":6165.633,"text":"由所謂的CS的部分它以後才能夠標成台灣先路這是本席剛剛跟你討論的你們目前的措施是運用這個方式在3月14號行政院命令公佈相關的這個方案所以本席要請教因為即使30%它的零關稅仍舊會衝擊到本國"},{"start":6170.336,"end":6191.828,"text":"我們還有什麼因應的方案呢同樣的就是我們在弱農產業部分我們在生產端因為我們現在的乳品本身的乳量大概是47萬我們希望說先降下來我們先確保它的品質不要去衝那個數量所以我們針對這些寡產的乳牛做淘汰然後做牛的死亡保險"},{"start":6192.808,"end":6199.394,"text":"那這樣的話能夠再去支撐我們的生產業的這些乳品的品質你把量減少不管你是寡產的你去給他輔導等等這也是一個方案但是實際上我們台灣的鮮乳是非常的棒"},{"start":6209.622,"end":6235.47,"text":"我們是要怎麼樣正面積極的去協助這才是正道所以本期要跟你討論的就是說談到鮮乳在去年9月份的時候上路我們你們原先規劃農業部規劃的是4年44億元的斑斑有鮮乳的這個政策但是你因為配套不足冷冽不足配送等執行都出了狀況所以當然教育部跟你們"},{"start":6236.83,"end":6254.463,"text":"終於呢你們也說了淪為斑斑薄酒擄的這個現象引起了社會大眾的一個爭議所以因此你在去年底行政院又喊卡倉促的來喊卡等於斑斑有鮮擄的這個政策是夭折所以部長"},{"start":6256.184,"end":6270.558,"text":"當時這麼倉促的來喊卡那其他的縣市執行當中呢都覺得非常的錯愕但是呢台北雲嘉南屏東台中我們也都紛紛的表態地方的縣市政府表態願意置辦"},{"start":6272.64,"end":6290.212,"text":"那同時台北市跟彰化縣也預計在下個月四月份呢要正式的開辦這個喝鮮乳那麼所以請教部長政府當時是有美意要照顧孩子非常的好讓孩子可以喝到這個牛奶"},{"start":6292.373,"end":6316.246,"text":"日本他們也是很成功的讓我們看到的一個成功案例所以我們是不是由繼續由中央提供經費讓地方來執行成為我們台中市盧俊彥市長他也多次的跟行政院來請益我們在這邊也再一次的要向農業部為了台中市的小朋友來請願方法"},{"start":6318.067,"end":6339.978,"text":"我們都可以協調成如我們呢你們如果把經費交給縣市政府來執行那麼每一個區都有每一個區的特色要怎麼樣因地制宜的將這個鮮乳送到我們的孩童的身上的手中我相信這是各縣市政府他能夠做的例如"},{"start":6340.558,"end":6367.129,"text":"我們台中市都會區的學生我們可以使用數位學生證到超商去領取先爐那偏鄉的地方我們也有方案可以讓我們的孩童能夠有先爐到他的手中所以在這樣的情況之下也就是我剛剛說的每一個區的因地制宜都有方案可以去解決所以請教為我們台中市的孩童來請命那麼部長"},{"start":6369.25,"end":6372.573,"text":"是不是你們應該將經費給縣市政府有意願要做的協助他們那做工當然當地就進來做絕對沒問題請教部長"},{"start":6380.772,"end":6406.011,"text":"我想簡單的講就是我們當初在做停止執行的時候其實是問過了所有的縣市那因為不同縣市有不同的意見都希望說中央繼續做那後來我們發現說其實這個部分以我們現在目前了解現在全台灣至少有10個縣市正在規劃或是已經規劃完正在招標去做表示說這個政策是對的"},{"start":6407.312,"end":6434.951,"text":"對 我非常感謝我從頭到尾都說讓我們的孩童可以喝得健康而且協助我們的懦弄這是一個很好和美意的政策我也特別舉日本也有這種成功的範例所以因此我們台中市我們也有能力這麼做甚至我們的數位學生證我們都可以就近到超商來合作因地制宜所以再一次的請教部長您是不是可以將經費原本你就有這個規劃嗎"},{"start":6437.873,"end":6451.105,"text":"請協助我們財中市的經費照顧我們的孩童對依各縣市的需求他去規劃我們是樂見其成然後經費是由他們的縣市政府自己去籌措那特別現在財務法財務法經費分攤了以後"},{"start":6453.067,"end":6457.391,"text":"我們其實中央的部分部長我們的總預算是史上最高啦那我們因為這個是你很好的政策四年44億你絕對有這個規劃所以我再次請你三思為了我們台中的孩童我們願意做的時候是不是我們也有方法沒有你的困難執行的困難我們可以打爆所以應該中央跟地方合作"},{"start":6478.55,"end":6497.939,"text":"你必須要補助經費請你三思再告訴我們最後一個議題我跟你討論這很重要的美國川普關稅的新政我們知道他上任之後力推新政那力求減少美國與他國的貿易利差甚至要重新的來檢視這個關稅所以本期要請教2020年我們出口美國的農產品的產值是這個8.87億美元美國輸入我國的農產品"},{"start":6508.003,"end":6513.747,"text":"農產品我們的產值它是多少呢是達到37.98%這個億元那美國可能對台灣產品調高關稅嗎美國跟我們的農產品的貿易它是否會有受到衝擊那麼你們評估是不是可以爭取農產品豁免或其他的應用方式 請做說明"},{"start":6535.421,"end":6552.17,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是台北的貿易對美國來講是順差它本身大概是30我們的資料是37.8但是財政部是36.9不同的計算模式大約是在37.9左右所以它是順差"},{"start":6554.491,"end":6568.66,"text":"那順差的部分那其實台美相關的貿易我們都會持續關切因為川普政府現在目前針對對等關稅的這些措施都還沒有公佈所以我們必須嚴正一旦因為他的這個新政讓世界全國都繃緊了神經我也建議我們部長務必"},{"start":6579.207,"end":6590.102,"text":"因為以往2021年的時候政府宣布要進一步的開放美洲跟美流聲稱我們可以藉此掃除台美這個洽談的雙邊貿易也就是BTA跟FTA"},{"start":6594.768,"end":6620.841,"text":"他認為進口就可以但是到目前為止BTA、OTA都沒有在這樣的一個情況之下所以對於美國新增的農產品部分那麼我們有沒有談判的這個應對措施這是本席請教部長對我想整個部分OTN跟各個部會我們都有在研議而且隨時關注美國相關的這些動態所以我們針對"},{"start":6622.862,"end":6640.989,"text":"無論如何我們一定是確保我們的產業的競爭力跟它的國際的競爭力這個是重點因為我們以農立國的台灣這是我們無論如何要好好的來照顧我們的農民因為整個世界的一個面向整個貿易關稅是佔了非常重要的關鍵所以也務請部長這個努力隨時應對了解謝謝"},{"start":6649.026,"end":6657.231,"text":"部長請回 瓊英我們交換 幫你代理主席好 接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢討"},{"start":6678.443,"end":6697.112,"text":"請保定好 我們再請部長各位好保定 我們現在來關心我們台灣同基層同線量的農民我想請你跟我一起追一個很悲傷"},{"start":6698.851,"end":6722.204,"text":"也是很多這個漁民啊碰到的這個困擾我要給你看的這個個案來 下一張圖 這個是漁民業者跟政府三叔的一個漁電共生的這個案子那我們共同來努力 現在大家都急來捕破網我給你看 我們來看一下這個圖 請播下一張柏定你看 這就是"},{"start":6723.956,"end":6741.461,"text":"這就是嘉義議長號稱我們全台灣第一個漁電共生的第一案在嘉義議長的台女漁電共生的案子你看喔這本來是很好的一個漁運嘛對不對你對農民都很了解這漁運本來很好結果為了要推動這個漁電共生他業者進去施工 你看"},{"start":6750.782,"end":6777.739,"text":"竟然有人把那個基樁插滿在魚塭裡面這是第一個大問題嘛這怎麼養魚?怎麼縮成?第二個 上面都蓋滿了這個太陽能光電板你想三百米 三百米一定要有陽光啊文革要有陽光啊所以就起不來那業者也試著說把那個蝦子丟進去養看看也死掉了 沒有陽光啦好 那第三個問題你看看那個邊坡啊 就那個土堤"},{"start":6778.839,"end":6806.56,"text":"寶釘你看那個土堤你是農業部長一定知道這個土一定是要用這個蓮土嘛各個業者說去用沙子的這個土地上還放離岸啊土堤怎麼會有人是傾斜的那就讓他們沖刷整個都往池塘裡面去了寶釘所以漁民就沒辦法本來要好好的漁溫本來要漁電共生嘛結果漁死了沒有漁電也沒有來所以漁民輸了"},{"start":6808.464,"end":6820.479,"text":"政府也輸了 業者也輸 山蘇我們現在有機會來補救啦我希望這個島 你去看叫你去 你這個專家去 你也沒辦法養嘛 對不對對不對現在應該已經改善了嘛已經改善了"},{"start":6822.054,"end":6841.502,"text":"我上禮拜還去問啊什麼改善它有一部分如果是這個積裝在外面這個目前是可以的如果有好幾個個案都是積裝在裡面的我跟委員報告喔魚電共生基本上光電的覆蓋率是40%第二件事情就是魚電共生之下的養殖的魚種根據我們水勢所"},{"start":6842.142,"end":6863.541,"text":"他有針對不同的魚種包括蝦子包括吳郭魚大概有10種的魚種是可以適合養不是說任何的魚種一定要100%的陽光因為它是覆蓋率是40%的第三個部分是現在最重要的一個問題就是光電業者跟成豬業者跟地主之間應該有一個更好的一個互動"},{"start":6864.241,"end":6886.696,"text":"那農業部現在在積極的去推動就是由專業的養殖的青農來在光電的規劃的一開始就進去去協助做最適當的光電的設置規劃以前不是以前是光電業者自己隨便蓋然後他不會養他就養其他的專業養殖者那個都是應付的啦"},{"start":6887.396,"end":6903.113,"text":"那個保定你要繼續努力啦不過不要紙上談兵我今天跟你談的是很具體我們非常努力去做這個我今天跟你講這個案子是這個案子目前在你的農業部在種材它已經被嘉義縣政府因為沒辦法養嘛"},{"start":6905.191,"end":6922.301,"text":"所以他已經被農業 被嘉義縣政府已經取消了他這個容許那個許可耶一直整個都停擺啊我先講一下這個案子現在就是處理那一區的部分對 現在就是這個案子嘛 這個案子大可憐 你知道嗎現在業者台米是跟這個漁民求償多少錢 你知道嗎"},{"start":6931.346,"end":6958.754,"text":"一億三千四百五十萬耶這都沒幾四年嘛 他們一千萬要求償一億三千四百五十萬這有沒有很嚴重他說沒辦法睡覺第二個對業者來講台里的說啊我當初政府你要有做這個一定工生嘛 對不對所以我才投入這麼多錢啊所以現在變成三書啊我記得要求很明確第一個這個案子很嚴重這個媒體報了好多次了上禮拜還在報嘛"},{"start":6960.266,"end":6977.805,"text":"我請部長你們要完全掌握我下去考察的時候你們的市長是有去的這個案子第一個你們現在在種材莊第一個他已經是一個荒廢狀態現在打官司跟討論的過程我拜託你一件事情你們農業部不能騎公車看賣相談"},{"start":6981.311,"end":6995.763,"text":"你們要照顧農民嘛好不好盡快進行這個普破王來著急你只要把這個看要怎麼去改善對不對讓魚可以繼續養我剛才說了這四個大缺失都是有辦法可以改善的改善完不要再求償"},{"start":6998.045,"end":7021.926,"text":"我跟委員報告這個案場現在我所知道的訊息是已經改善完整已經在放養泰國蝦了那至於說台泥跟那個城駐的農民之間的關係那這個東西我想我們會站在客觀的立場去因為農民因為這是個案不是全案個案的部分他跟台泥之間的要求然後台泥去求賞我相信會牽涉到一些"},{"start":7023.107,"end":7039.082,"text":"私人的事情啦那我想我們會去了解然後如果說是針對農民是有理的部分我想我們一定會站在協助的角度要去照顧我們基層這些農民啦這個不是只有這個案子這個案例已經撤回訴訟了"},{"start":7040.463,"end":7062.939,"text":"有撤回訴訟已經撤回訴訟那很好那你們要更進一步要協調他們最理想的就是可以讓他重新有魚嘛沒有現在已經改了要改好你們都去關心他們那事實上我實地界考察也不是只有這個案子碰到問題旁邊那個插滿機裝的有幾個漁民都在陳情現在請那個部長跟那個農業部好不好你們去第一個"},{"start":7063.78,"end":7086.648,"text":"去關心他們他們碰到問題幫他們解決第二個我知道你們這個定型這個企業啦其實一開始只要出現這樣的問題他就那個企業本身定的那個內容啊漁民都看漁民看不到嘛對不對所以你後來你有把定型化這個企業你再去輔導他你們要下去一不小心關心你們把這個企業跟他們輔導一下就是說你一定要去落實要照顧好自己的潛力好不好"},{"start":7088.809,"end":7110.089,"text":"我想我非常重要就是 報仰的那個光電的一些比較混亂的地方那我們在內部已經重新調整我們會以更積極的服務的態度去協助而不是說只提供土地的變更或者土地的容許啦那其他的是由光電業者跟農民自己來啦我想我們會用更積極的輔導作為去做"},{"start":7112.151,"end":7133.933,"text":"我們積極一點 給農地關心啦因為要幫他們解決問題 特別有講定型化企業那個好好做好不好另外我問一下 剛才其實有其他立委問到了就是婚齡 管政部所講他說剛講的是漁電共生嘛 現在是農地 農電共生這個問題好像一個婚齡嘛 超過五千名的農民 面臨他的農保可能要退保"},{"start":7135.278,"end":7138.179,"text":"我跟委員報告我覺得有一些媒體下錯標了而且是惡意的下標就是針對老農針對洋套殺"},{"start":7153.593,"end":7181.989,"text":"年紀超過65歲的他農保可以不需要持有土地所以這個部分是完全百分之百沒問題超過65歲以上的老農沒有那個0.1公頃對沒有這個已經解開了所以65以上解決那65以下呢所以沒有老農養套差這些問題我必須要澄清所以65歲以下呢65歲以下的話我們今天業務有提出來一個調整作為"},{"start":7182.609,"end":7210.842,"text":"你如果配合國家的能源政策你提供這些土地出租以後那我們會鬆綁讓他繼續維持有農保的資格所以你當初是要下令各個縣市在前面去做這個清查我跟議員報告農保的清查是一直在做的而不是特別清查然後這次會發文是因為省紀部在做後台勾擊的時候他覺得有一些"},{"start":7211.842,"end":7238.613,"text":"一律要釐清不是說那些人就全部違規他說一律要釐清然後要我們盡速的去釐清所以我們在做這樣的一個處理那另外一個就是我想有委員要求我們說我們都放任光電的農民都還可以繼續有農保也要求我們去清查所以我們才同步去清查的這個是有史以來歷年來最大規模的農保資格清查要讓我們農民可以安心好不好"},{"start":7239.653,"end":7262.503,"text":"所以部長你剛講65歲以上的放心然後以下的怎麼讓他們可以放心這個要進一步清清楚楚的說明對我們已經非常清楚而且我們後續會盡快的修改相關的辦法然後最近我想我們也會發文先請縣市政府暫停暫停光電的部分光電的部分我們有一些調整暫行清查這個很重要你說會先"},{"start":7263.643,"end":7287.404,"text":"發文給各個縣市政府光電的農地這個部分我想我們先暫時因為我們要修改他們的辦法部長我最後做三點這個結論第一個對於過往有實際務農這個狀況可是他不管是在漁電共生或者是農電共生你要審定標準如果沒有達到的盡量往放寬的方向去走好不好保住他們這個農保的這個資格我們是說這個對他們很重要"},{"start":7291.107,"end":7312.09,"text":"重寬 重寬 啊第二個 給你通通就是定型化這個企業啦你針對這個 我的瞭解是這個漁電共生啊 已經有幾個版本一直在修定型化企業了農地 農電共生好像還沒有對不對我們沒有開 沒有開齁那你要跟經濟部討論一下啊 可以比照漁電共生趕快嗎沒有 我農地不開"},{"start":7313.632,"end":7327.872,"text":"農地不開光電他們有些農地你不是已經都在做太陽能總沒有農地變更農地變更土地變更以後就做的你說變更完了就是如果有農地或者是農民他做了這個"},{"start":7329.074,"end":7355.636,"text":"他要去跟業者要合作,做我們的國家政策我們不同意,農地我們現在不同意農地,那你現在有某些農地我們現在是漁電,然後那個溫室的溫室栽培的屋頂可以像你剛才說的,你們這些人當地的問題,這些農民你應該要怎麼去幫他,你就應該給他一個沒有,就是漁電的部分是沒問題的然後現在在屋頂型的也沒問題這個我們都可以來處理,但是"},{"start":7356.621,"end":7384.855,"text":"那個陸地的光電設施我們目前並沒有開沒有開放嘛我說如果有些農民碰到這個問題你要去幫他們解決啦好不好要多一點輔導多一點多一點協助好最後一個針對這個農民跟養殖這個漁民啊如果配合政府的農電共生跟漁電共生政策可是後來這個土地發生了像剛剛在講的污染啦埋了什麼廢棄物啦環境改變或者是什麼電廠設計跟施工你導致他根本就沒辦法再種農或者務農或者是養殖的時候"},{"start":7385.655,"end":7402.008,"text":"搞不好後來導致他連那個農民的身份都被取消嘛或者一定時間裡面都沒辦法從事欸你還說這個很可憐喔結果有時候還被業者回過頭來要去求償他我請也算拜託啦也要求農業部這我硬要做的齁我可以報告過往就是齁"},{"start":7403.149,"end":7420.434,"text":"地主租了以後他根本不去看現場光電就被亂蓋了現在我們希望說在蓋的規劃的時候我們這些養殖的青龍就要一起去設計然後去看他的施工會不會有影響他的汙染影響後續的養殖這個部分我們會做"},{"start":7420.974,"end":7445.667,"text":"你們不用清農而已啦 包括老農中農都一樣啦所以農民都要 尤其是年紀越大了可能他那個法律上的那個錢他比較沒有這個經驗嘛所以我一外面是要求 一外面是拜託農業部一定拜託一下 一定要做這個事情就是要多幫幫他們啦所以包括他們可能有時候被人家求償被餓死你們要站在農民的這個角度跟他們立場多保護他們 多照顧包括 請 保證在剛才的案件一樣"},{"start":7447.848,"end":7462.44,"text":"去幫他們協商好不好都照顧我們的農民你現在不是只有一邊化解那個酋長這個問題然後盡量如果說他們受到不利的侵害有時候錯在業者對不對業者比較強大嘛都幫幫我們這個漁民跟農民自己應該有權利好不好這三點請具體的落實好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":7466.763,"end":7477.767,"text":"好 謝謝我們張祺凱委員非常感謝因為我們經濟委員會大家都是非常的以農為主好好的討論政策那我們現在休息 謝謝"},{"start":7494.224,"end":7494.904,"text":"謝謝大家的支持"},{"start":7522.376,"end":7523.578,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":7544.813,"end":7544.833,"text":"嗯"},{"start":7560.618,"end":7562.719,"text":"它是一艘飞船的一艘飞船"},{"start":7587.533,"end":7588.693,"text":"哇,就是一點啊"},{"start":7609.697,"end":7610.278,"text":"休息中"},{"start":7637.583,"end":7638.344,"text":"謝謝你謝謝你謝謝你謝謝你"},{"start":7670.559,"end":7670.759,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7699.399,"end":7718.845,"text":"大力的全面力行就是放寬那個努力的那個補給其實也是全面努力沒有沒有 它變成你六十五歲以下你就算沒有努力你只要是給公司沒有沒有沒有以前是六十五歲以下也是少要積極工作要努力的那時候你還會繼續沒有 那個六五一五那時候是很少製作的"},{"start":7726.067,"end":7744.571,"text":"我知道我知道,我是說65歲以下,65歲以下,剛剛彭博士已經介紹過講了,彭博士可能會長大,他等於是說,我做,他就說他可能會長大幾歲,那我實際上做,我如果說沒有達到彭博士的第一名,那還是可以去學彭博士的啊?"},{"start":7751.378,"end":7768.443,"text":"對,對,對可是,哪一個兩隻吃得好吃啊?我記得是這個對啦,但是它就不再受一分地的那個限制其實蠻誇張的哈哈,好意思就是以前不是說紅地要紅用嗎?是啦"},{"start":7771.887,"end":7785.597,"text":"因為它那個是乳電工具,它不是全部就變燈掉的要乳電工具所以還是要養,還是要養才可以但是,怎麼樣都覺得好像很好?乳濃的促膽大概很多人都喜歡它法是促膽我覺得當地人都是放餐的地方"},{"start":7800.196,"end":7826.97,"text":"不需要快遞到農保 它還是要農對 但不在收納至少快遞的限制可是實際從事農業的實際從事農業一定要實際申請農產 要實際申請農產只是我們的不耕地是在農保的辦法裡農保大法不耕地 它現在是說它可能不受農保不耕地的情況是 它經常講說不受不耕地的限制但是農業的元素還是要在農場所以它是選擇要到農場去"},{"start":7830.977,"end":7834.519,"text":"這個農曆農用跟農曆剛講農用鎮那個文化可是你剛剛講過這個就是農曆農用"},{"start":7849.069,"end":7851.652,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":7868.19,"end":7869.11,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":7888.418,"end":7888.838,"text":"謝謝大家收看"},{"start":7917.77,"end":7921.892,"text":"你是不是有什麼基本費不算,然後營業費不算,還有幾個?"},{"start":7941.341,"end":7967.601,"text":"對,然後再跟他請完就是台店上來就跟他請,要不然也要買禮物他給你寄上寄出,寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子上來就給你寄上寄到房子"},{"start":7968.916,"end":7969.416,"text":"我們有編70751"},{"start":7986.118,"end":7986.718,"text":"我去問一下 請問一下"},{"start":8018.689,"end":8018.889,"text":"YES!"},{"start":8041.118,"end":8051.924,"text":"我干嘛就会找事情做来呀 什么 这次很不错这次是一个很厉害的机会今天是一个很厉害的机会今天是一个很厉害的机会今天是个好机会"},{"start":8071.718,"end":8072.038,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8097.021,"end":8101.884,"text":"這張照片的主要目的就是為了提供更多的資訊和資訊提供更多的資訊"},{"start":8121.816,"end":8124.137,"text":"如果全部都退款然後訂一份"},{"start":8884.522,"end":8904.391,"text":"好 那我們繼續開會 接下來是請鄭天才委員發言主席 各位有請部長好 請部長 陳部長"},{"start":8911.674,"end":8930.721,"text":"部長好,非常謝謝,辛苦了我們上次針對野生動物保育法已經修正了但是還有一個法,跟原住民族基本法19條有關係的原住民族基本法第19條"},{"start":8932.482,"end":8954.417,"text":"這個第三款第二款採集野生植物這個部分那這個是原住民族基本法所規定的既以傳統文化既以跟這個自用為限那我們原住民族第七有它的定義這個都已經核定"},{"start":8956.203,"end":8983.3,"text":"好我们看森林法第15条现行的条文森林位于原住民族传统领域土地原住民族传统领域土地这个原住民族基本法第19条是原住民得在原住民族地区原住民族地区所以这个第15条必须第一个要修正为"},{"start":8984.71,"end":8997.625,"text":"原住民族传统利益要修正为原住民族第七第二个要修正的就是要增加自用自用非盈利的自用所以这个部分呢"},{"start":8999.021,"end":9018.114,"text":"特別跟部長還有署長也都知道了這個之前我都是透過協調透過解釋解釋都已經用了那現在就是法要修了這個原住民主基本法今年正好已經實施20年了"},{"start":9019.174,"end":9028.661,"text":"20年了所以本席有提案了這個委員會有安排審查的時候這個就請農業部能夠支持好不好"},{"start":9031.173,"end":9053.825,"text":"謝謝委員我跟委員報告就是原住民地區如果說各縣市有劃出來的時候我們一定會配合去修正我們是現在是用原住民傳統領域嘛那相對的就是說各縣市如果沒有劃出來的時候那變成說你法如果只寫原住民地區的時候那認定就有困難這樣那個我來說明第一個"},{"start":9055.171,"end":9084.492,"text":"原住民族第七都已經經過行政院核定了好那核定的就沒問題了第一個行政院都核定了是這第一個第二個現在的試用已經用原住民族第七了是這是透過我去協調之後當時的農委會跟延民會這樣的話我想我們可以配合修法對所以所以這個不過這個我們可以配合來修法經濟委會有安排的時候請農業部能夠支持好"},{"start":9085.56,"end":9103.739,"text":"接下來就跟林業署沒有關係了那個農業保險法109年5月27號公布施行110年1月1號施行這個是一個非常好而且重要的一個法例"},{"start":9104.926,"end":9122.544,"text":"那农业保险法第十条也规定主管机关得对要保人保保保农业保险之保险费予以补助也就是这个农业部予以补助这补助的比例本法施行后五年内"},{"start":9123.385,"end":9146.674,"text":"以75%為上限施行後第6年起以60%為上限所以會降低降低了15%所以呢現在114年了第6年就是明年了所以這個部分我們要積極的第一個要積極的去"},{"start":9148.888,"end":9162.394,"text":"推動先導讓農民能夠知道這個部分因為現在比例還是有限了113年度土保"},{"start":9164.547,"end":9189.756,"text":"26.9萬件所以這個面積只有23.4萬公頃所以還有很大的空間所以這個部分然後第一個要積極的加先導第二個也必須思考一下子從百分之補助75%變成60%所以這個部分是一個很大的一個落差部長是不是"},{"start":9191.28,"end":9212.491,"text":"要去怎麼樣去因應好 謝謝委員的關心那第一件事情就是農業保險現在目前有28個品項44張保單那我在內部討論的時候我要求是我們農業保險的要重視那個品質而不是衝那個數量所以我們現在目前在重新檢討我們的保單的內涵"},{"start":9213.351,"end":9241.37,"text":"也是因為保墩的內涵調整以後希望能夠讓更多的農民了解以後去加入啦所以這個部分我想我們會積極來做第二點就是我們現在的保費的補助大概都是雖然說法規有定上限是75%但是我們現在的保費的補助大概是50%並沒有超過50%除了那個政策型保險以外像租资保險那個部分有提高到100%以外那其他的部分我們都是用50%"},{"start":9244.058,"end":9265.247,"text":"因為我們台灣天然災害各式各樣所以這個部分是需要去加強這是第一個第二個也請農業部這邊原住民到底具有原住民身份的投保的也統計一下"},{"start":9267.933,"end":9294.469,"text":"我想我們會另外拉出來就是有關於原住民投保的那上次我想委員一直關心那我們也會持續的在原住民部落那邊去宣導好這個部分另外就是說這個今年開始推動這個糧食產業前面升級計畫開放繳售供糧者得投保水稻收入加長期保險保障所有稻"},{"start":9295.529,"end":9321.276,"text":"農因天然災害或其他事故產生產量的損失這個部分要去積極的去推動好不好報告就是因為那個水稻的部分的保險我們的截止是到三月底啦那三月底我們現在看起來投保率有提高啦那到三月底的時候我想得到一個比較正確的數字的時候再提供給委員的參考好 謝謝那另外就是說上次"},{"start":9322.421,"end":9346.195,"text":"也特別有關這個原住民參加農民退休儲金這個統計的數字這個是112年的後來有請你們去跟人民會然後你們也要請那個農會農會來去推動所以這個部分也把新的數字提供出來好不好"},{"start":9348.837,"end":9368.388,"text":"在113年8月那個時候委員在關心的時候大概是801人那到目前我經過我們直接到部落去宣導以後現在已經有增加大概60人左右我想我們持續會努力你把那個數字提供好然後繼續努力好謝謝謝謝好謝謝曾委員謝謝部長謝謝接下來請謝一鳳委員發言"},{"start":9383.036,"end":9385.044,"text":"謝謝主席 我想要請我們陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":9392.233,"end":9407.917,"text":"部長我想請教一下就是現在目前美國正在對各國進行關稅的談判那我想要請問因為2024年我們外銷美國的農產品總額只有8.87億但是美國農產品輸入我國的總額是37.98億美元"},{"start":9420.06,"end":9444.261,"text":"那這個逆差是美國輸我們的多那還多了四倍之多所以如果美國認為就是這個豬肉進口的稅率目前我們訂定的是12.5%他們認為太高的話那要我們調降那有沒有因應的手段"},{"start":9445.031,"end":9471.742,"text":"我跟委員報告就是川普政府的對等關稅的一個政策他現在目前並沒有實際公布哪一些他的真正的措施跟作為但是我們農業部已經持續在關心那農業部農業的產品的部分就像委員所說的對美國來講是粗糙他並不是一個逆差貿易逆差是用全台灣的產品所以對農業部來講比較好的一個"},{"start":9474.443,"end":9489.672,"text":"一個就是對美國來講是順差那第二個部分就是我們現在要處理的就是美國的平均關稅是5.0台灣的農產品平均關稅是16.6但是這16.6本身如果你用貿易的平均"},{"start":9490.912,"end":9505.426,"text":"就是貿易加權平均的話大概是9%左右啦所以我想我們會持續去關切目前川普釋出的這些訊息而且我們也會配合政府OTN一致性的這些跟美國去做一個有效的溝通"},{"start":9506.616,"end":9531.892,"text":"但是美國貿易代表所他發表的年度貿易障礙報告裡面我們台灣的農產品貿易品項有稻米美牛美豬等就是常被他們認為他們有貿易障礙的點名我們應該廢除美牛禁令等非關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":9533.633,"end":9548.047,"text":"所以未來如果關稅的清單上除了關稅以外還要我們排除美牛禁令的這樣子的非關稅的貿易障礙的時候你們因應的手段是什麼"},{"start":9549.563,"end":9561.843,"text":"我跟委員報告就是基本上我們在對美本身的一個主要的態度就是相對的在個別品項裡面在去談的時候我認為"},{"start":9563.874,"end":9593.355,"text":"以豬肉來講其實豬肉將近88%到90%是國產豬肉因為國內的消費習性都是以溫體豬為主特別是溫體豬大概63%是進到我們的傳統市場所以應該對我們國內的豬肉是要有信心的然後10%左右它是由其他國家進口那其他國家裡面美國進來的比例我記得非常低大概只有2到3左右而已所以這個部分我想我們會持續關切它的"},{"start":9593.735,"end":9618.818,"text":"他的動向我們會不會有手段我們有沒有辦法拿出手段來有沒有辦法拿出政策來以農業部來講我們一定會持續去加強我們的國內的豬產業的升級我們過去四年投入了將近100億到128億左右因為有些是移動性的跨年度的所以我們的豬本身的生產效率也提高了所以本身的競爭力是逐漸的浮現"},{"start":9619.899,"end":9644.779,"text":"那相對的如果美國的進口的時候他是在那個10%裡面不同的國家在搶那個單子所以我們會持續的關切那如果他要求我們呢要求我們排除相關的障礙呢例如有可能是希望我們在學校的那個校園的餐點裡面不得禁用相關的食品"},{"start":9646.652,"end":9655.317,"text":"你問到這個問題就不是農業部可以回答的不過以農業部來講我們一定從產業端去提供一個優質的一個產品為目標"},{"start":9659.48,"end":9685.211,"text":"如果啦 如果即便如此那美國對於台灣我們重點出口的對美輸出的農產品的品項例如蝴蝶蘭 吳郭魚 虱目魚 毛豆等他如果再進口關稅採取差別稅率那會不會影響到台灣農產品進口到美國的競爭力那未來我們政府怎麼樣協助農民做營運"},{"start":9687.873,"end":9716.512,"text":"我跟委員報告像蝴蝶蘭花它是零關稅那如果關稅它提高因為對等關稅就是它要求我們降低或是它提高但是它提高其實對它的國內是沒有用的那我們在這個方面的因應其實蝴蝶蘭是一個接力生產它不是直接把花送到美國去賣所以它接力生產的過程中我們會透過這些接力生產的不同階段的種苗去做一個有效的調度第二個就是"},{"start":9717.732,"end":9743.758,"text":"川普政府不只是對台灣對等關稅的一個處理他對其他的競爭對手國我們對美國的蝴蝶洋最大的競爭對手國是荷蘭所以荷蘭如果同樣的去調高關稅的時候那其實大家在同等的關稅之下台灣還是有競爭力的所以要看他會不會對荷蘭調高對對其他的國家所以我們會持續去關切川普政府的一個對等關稅的一個整個的處理情形"},{"start":9745.325,"end":9770.77,"text":"還有我們在那個調整台電調整費率的時候有沒有他有可能就已經2024年他調整費率說他要取消對於社福學校農業等的優惠電價那由該事業主管機關編列預算動長電價那這個部分農業部有沒有辦法爭取台電不要調整農業用電的費率"},{"start":9773.551,"end":9788.992,"text":"我跟委員報告在去年台電調降的時候早期是台電那邊去處理去吸收嘛那現在從去年開始就是由各主管機關就農業部他調降了以後我們就配合他的調降我們對農民的用電"},{"start":9791.275,"end":9800.546,"text":"的一個輔導跟協助政策是不變的所以當他上市調降了以後我們編列的24.26億本來是25點多億後來因為三減的關係24.26億那有一部分是做他的一個"},{"start":9807.601,"end":9833.426,"text":"那個用電的優惠包括它的基本用電離封尖峰的用電的優惠那另外一個部分是處理它的那個電費上漲的價差補貼這個我們都會去處理如果這一次的電費有所調整的話我想我們政策不變我們還是會積極的去向政府還是從就是變預算補貼而不是你不會去要求台電要對於農業的用電費率就是不要予以動長嗎"},{"start":9834.827,"end":9846.402,"text":"我想以農業部的立場就是我們的目標就是希望這個電費不會造成農民的一個增加負擔嘛所以農業部一定會盡可能的去尋找財源來協助農民"},{"start":9848.837,"end":9876.987,"text":"尤其是當我們有可能面臨到就是美國的對於我們的相關的稅率有可能增加的時候那如果我們又在就是電費的方面這樣就是農業電費的話我覺得對於農民的整體的衝擊可能太大那未來農業部也要進一步儘快因應喔好不好我想非常謝謝委員的關心因為委員也一直非常關心農業那這個部分我想我們跟委員的態度是一樣的我們一定用盡全力來協助我們的產業的發展"},{"start":9878.08,"end":9881.242,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝謝委員 謝謝陳部長 謝謝接下來請李玉玲委員發言謝謝主席 請陳部長好 請陳部長委員長"},{"start":9907.506,"end":9924.266,"text":"部長這個月在台北發生了比特犬有二度咬人的事件那市主也有受到這個管理不當的部分開罰了20萬元但是我們看到我們2022年的3月1號就比特犬就列為禁止飼養了"},{"start":9925.327,"end":9936.912,"text":"禁止飼養的所以我們希望他們可以用整個管理上來做登記跟決議的部分而且被查的這個比特犬現在目前雖然禁養但是現在還有3974隻那但是"},{"start":9943.014,"end":9959.679,"text":"這三千多隻的話 你有沒有去落實去管理 那就很重要所以還看到會發生了這個比特權咬人事件 甚至還有被咬死孩童的這個案例喔 那我請問部長 這個是不是你們要再加嚴管理加嚴來懲罰"},{"start":9963.159,"end":9982.674,"text":"這個事件凸顯了寵物的分級分類管理的重要這第一個第二個部分就是針對有公共安全危險的這些寵物事實上我們會陸續的去公告那以比特權來講就像您說的將近4000隻本身是列管的而且我們已經有很明確的規範"},{"start":9983.955,"end":10004.087,"text":"當你一旦被列管的時候這些寵物如果要帶出門的時候第一個你的牽引繩的成據你要戴口罩而且要有成年人因為有時候力量太大一定要有成年人陪伴有這些規範之下你如果違反的時候所以這要加強管理嘛對我們會加強管理怎麼樣去教育跟訓練我覺得我們現在很多寵物我們"},{"start":10007.009,"end":10025.979,"text":"在動保室裡面我們有一個專案一直要去強調事主的責任因為事主的責任如果落實的時候我相信後面的很多包括這種動物的咬人的事情或者是流浪犬的問題那個問題就可以簡化對 就在動保法裡面我們就要加強規範像它出入公眾場所牠的這個牽繩這牽繩距離1.5公尺你要有牽繩"},{"start":10030.862,"end":10045.874,"text":"甚至他出去外面如果這狗狗他未來他是很兇猛的話你看到很多的話還有嘴巴會加個套子對不對以防他會去咬人嘛這些都必須要有加強規範那所以我們也希望說我們在"},{"start":10047.535,"end":10068.836,"text":"部長你這邊很多的條例我們就要在我們中央統一來規範你不能丟給地方政府用地方自治法去做這樣子的話有些地方還是沒有規範到那我們桃園對於這個牽繩的部分我們桃園是統一規定你只要帶到戶外公眾場所都要有牽繩那其他地方還是沒有那部長"},{"start":10069.517,"end":10094.506,"text":"要不要統一來規範我跟委員報告剛才我講的就是說他出入公共場所裡面的基本規範都已經在動保法裡面有規範了現在全國都要對都要而且是地方政府的落實度你說的動保法有事現在你們規範還沒有實施只是你們送進去行政院而已嗎沒有沒有這個動保法有規有危險的犬隻已經在動保法裡面有規定了"},{"start":10095.166,"end":10115.425,"text":"其他的犬隻也會有啊對 相對的就是 我想剛才說的當然危險的有 但沒有危險的不曉得牠什麼動作萬一說行人啊 那個用路人牠有受到威脅啊騎腳踏車 狗仔追牠的時候牠也會跌倒這些都還是要用牽繩來規範的我想第一個部分齁就是"},{"start":10116.926,"end":10146.326,"text":"因為犬隻本身有危險性的或比較沒危險性的喔我們在這個動物的分級寵物的分級分類裡面就是因為有分級部長你不要說危險性的比特犬牠可能說肌肉比較強比較咬合力比較大牠是危險性的但是你說沒有危險性也不一定喔像很多我們民眾的投訴裡面就有很多流浪狗還是狗隻會追人用路的人被追騎腳踏車也被追小孩子回家也被咬"},{"start":10147.546,"end":10158.974,"text":"這些情形都一再的在發生所以我們是不是應該統一要規範說不只說是危險性的一般的只要你事主都有負責管理的責任你沒有教育好 管理好"},{"start":10160.216,"end":10181.554,"text":"就會發生這種問題嗎非常同意委員的意見我剛才說的在動保法裡面針對危險的選擇已經有規範了然後您剛才注重的就是除了危險選擇以外其他的選擇也有可能發生那當時在動保法的時候也有把它列進去後來在委員討論的時候被不是您啦被一些委員把它拿掉了"},{"start":10182.914,"end":10208.988,"text":"可是部長你忘了你在2023年4月的時候修正的版本送到行政院的這有一個有四個的層面你們都有提進去一個就是事主的這個責任還有就是對管理我們的動物的這個利用跟虐待的傷害還有一個就是對於寵物產業的管理跟我們檢察員的執法四個層面你都送到行政院那所以說我們要統一規範的話"},{"start":10211.209,"end":10227.68,"text":"那行政院你們已經送進去了2023年4月送進去去年的這個8月份也呈報這行政院什麼時候你要送進來立法院我想那個行政院審議完了以後我們一定會第一時間送進去年到現在已經兩年了"},{"start":10229.23,"end":10249.513,"text":"2023年到2024年到2025年已經兩年了什麼時候每次問部長你這個事情的時候你都叫年底年底年底不了了是過了兩年了很抱歉因為行政院的審議的時候他有不同的法案在審理我們會那你有去了解嗎需要你解釋的需要修正的你們都可以再送啊"},{"start":10250.994,"end":10278.652,"text":"最重要就是說我們一定是行政院審議我會拜託行政院能夠優先來審議那有什麼時間什麼時間要送進來立法院我問了以後再跟委員回覆好不好我現在不敢隨便講比較重要的我跟委員報告比較重要的是在因為法院法案在審查之後還有一些時程在這個空窗期的時候兩年了對在這個空窗期的時候我們可不可以用一些指引的方式去對地方政府去做傳達"},{"start":10280.393,"end":10303.639,"text":"是 所以在這邊我要跟部長再三的強調就是說這個部分不要讓各地各地方政府自己去決定地方自治去決定我們應該統一在中央有一個一套的這個規範出來這樣子的話民眾在飼養他的動物的時候他可以用教育他或者訓練他或者加強管理如果說管理不當的情形之下我們要再加強嚴懲而且"},{"start":10305.399,"end":10310.307,"text":"我們的統一的規範也希望你們早日公佈 讓我們動保法可以去執行"},{"start":10311.052,"end":10332.457,"text":"了解 我們一起努力接下來我們要請問的就是因為美國在4月份提出這個對等關稅的部分在對等關稅的話也把我們國家列到骯髒15國裡面也就是整個經濟貿易的這個有逆差順差這個情形的發生的話那我們特別提到的就是我們農漁業這個部分農業我們台灣的進口"},{"start":10336.718,"end":10349.75,"text":"是比出口的這個多所以在黃小玉的出口是原物料那台灣像美國出口的這個加工農產品的話在2024年來講的話台灣對美國這個農業貿易的利差將近了29億的美元所以美國會不會對我們的對等關稅裡面加強我們的關稅"},{"start":10357.978,"end":10385.945,"text":"我想根據川普的對外的釋出的訊息他的對等關稅的完整的措施是在4月2號他會公布那這個期間其實我們政府在OTN的協助之下我們也做了相關的盤點對農業來講一個比較好的地方是對美國農產貿易我們對他們來講是順差是順差然後接下來就是說這些關稅本身它是一次性的還是個別性的去談"},{"start":10386.425,"end":10403.769,"text":"所以部長都要去了解我們持續的去了解去關心但是目前我想我們還是積極的在輔導我們的產業升級跟轉型最重要一點就是任何的後續的調整一定要去維持我們產業的競爭力本席會在這邊提醒部長的話就是我們擔心的是美國為了說這個農產品這個關稅來做誘因邀請我國放寬對於美國的豬肉跟牛肉還有萊克多巴胺的成分的標準"},{"start":10416.192,"end":10439.658,"text":"像調整這個下降這個標準甚至於讓那個美牛這個高風險的部位的強制來扣關影響國人的健康這一點請農業部一定要堅守好不好我想我們以農業部來講我們會積極的輔導我們國內的豬肉的一個供應而且台灣的習性相信百分之九十百分之八十八到百分之九十左右都是用國產肉的部分這個部分我想我們"},{"start":10439.858,"end":10457.63,"text":"不要因為我們的農漁業的這個關稅給我們一些減免的或者是免生關稅的這個誘因你就犧牲國人的健康這個是很重要的 請部長一定堅守謝謝李委員 謝謝陳部長 謝謝好 接下來我們請陳昌明委員發言"},{"start":10471.978,"end":10473.944,"text":"首先有請我們農業部我們的陳部長"},{"start":10484.003,"end":10505.365,"text":"委員長陳部長好我常常講我們農業部還有國華會的業務報告寫得非常好你們的業務報告我都把這拿了三本要珍藏起來今年我就要看你們的業務報告值得肯定但是這裡面我第一個要請教你的問題"},{"start":10506.874,"end":10514.503,"text":"你在AU報告裡面寫114年度總預算增加63.1億是為了照顧農民為了升級產業為了守護生命財產的安全"},{"start":10522.353,"end":10540.093,"text":"這裡面又包括了三大項國土保安與基礎建設第二個產業升級第三個農民福利與生活那我今天我也要藉此機會特別感謝我們以前的水保局現在的農村發展使"},{"start":10541.114,"end":10561.656,"text":"還有我們的林務局 現在林務局從山上到丘陵地大概做的我們算是作為肯定跟滿意但是我們的產業發展史理事長大概是6月份就要退休了這幾年我借這個機會先表達我怕沒有機會 我不曉得你什麼時候退休"},{"start":10563.078,"end":10570.735,"text":"我只要跟你說這樣,你知道我的用意在哪裡嗎?增加63.1億,沒有3億算,不要亂講"},{"start":10572.113,"end":10576.614,"text":"那這裡面有談到整體性的治山防災計畫農地重劃區基礎建設的升級計畫還有重劃區緊急融入設施改善這個計畫"},{"start":10597.361,"end":10608.721,"text":"我希望要持續進行我們的龍水市蔡市長很努力跟我跑的苗栗跑了好幾次你大概了解到我們需要改進的地方我們"},{"start":10610.532,"end":10625.578,"text":"水保農村發展室上山下海跟我去調查做了大概不錯的一個成績出來繼續努力繼續幫忙雖然要退休了我再次鼓勵你把任務完成一下維持長期這樣保證要給我們支持嗎?"},{"start":10631.394,"end":10651.355,"text":"第一個就是,不只是苗栗啦,全台灣的產業有關的,我們一般都支持啦我把我任務做好,工作做好,拜託,全力的支持,好不好你在說的齁,你算算看哪一樣沒有支持啊我都有支持,我就是特別感謝你嘛,再加強一次,因為你很實在"},{"start":10653.557,"end":10681.405,"text":"這裡面也可以看出來你很用心你在裡面農民福利遺書裡面農業用電的優惠及動價動漲的差額你已經準備好了大概你有先知之明衛福先知這是去年漲價的部分很多委員都問了這個問題我今天就不問了寫下來有63.5億的增加我相信你是很好運作的好不好"},{"start":10682.861,"end":10709.488,"text":"好 再來啊你說三檢預算的影響三檢項目過度集中行政機關運作受影響那媒體政策及業務宣導會通算60我不曉得有沒有自行調整但是在這安裝上我來跟你請教一下只要是對著農業部的1450今年你要辛苦一下"},{"start":10710.248,"end":10729.571,"text":"把你所有的文宣會用或是怎樣的媒體的政策也給我們一目了然在只要針對1450因為1450給農業部背了很大的黑鍋可以從此改洗一下我們沒有1450我們這樣的錢也做出好的成績出來"},{"start":10730.912,"end":10756.795,"text":"謝謝委員說1450對農業部來講是一個黑鍋其實農業部非常多的業務是需要透過宣導的主席請我講久一點 還沒談到主席不要馬上站起來好 繼續我現在要請教你一個問題 我覺得很奇怪非洲滋潤防疫宣導你們的報告裡面說飛機進來的時候要去宣導 要花錢嘛"},{"start":10758.212,"end":10786.735,"text":"我現在問這個問題給你我覺得我每次坐飛機回來的時候有在飛機上廣播一下有聽跟沒有聽這個要特別注意您說的365天都要先到這裡面花了多少錢外國的飛機台灣的飛機國家的政策叫他來講你告訴我這個理由我怎麼會接受這個是政策可以強迫航空公司我們不要付錢"},{"start":10787.672,"end":10811.941,"text":"我跟委員報告 航空公司的功課很貴耶對 這樣很貴喔 這樣我們再給他收集 我們的國家要不就領 台灣要不就領這個裡面 包括登記多少錢進來都是在那個宣傳單裡面只講了幾句話 飛機下來講了幾句話 要花那麼多的錢台灣也是太弱了嘛 說你是...這一點不用付錢"},{"start":10815.022,"end":10840.912,"text":"你們一定要去談判我只舉一個例子所以在媒體政策及AO先導通商的部分切實這邊再改進一下艱苦一下訓練自己一下好不好不要說一算三了三件已經成為事實了但是裡面很多必須要做的事情我們還是會努力的去達到是必要的大家有必要我再來講"},{"start":10842.438,"end":10848.644,"text":"你的補治農業特別收入基金3.9千萬農業特別基金有農業發展基金、農業天然栽培補進、農業進口兼職補治金一共總共的金額多少611億"},{"start":10858.693,"end":10870.495,"text":"六八十一億好 六八十一億九千萬一個基金三千萬啊你就喊還缺啊沒有沒有沒有 我要跟委員報告齁基金公務撥補基金雖然刪了九千萬非常少但是刪了以後因為預算法的關係以後基金如果超支不能用第二立法基金"},{"start":10884.298,"end":10891.4,"text":"你這個3個基金在調我們沒有任何災害都同時來的好不好我告訴你沒有辦法好不好我告訴你沒有 特別是天然災害就有基金喔你現在再放一個3個基金裡面 你看怎樣去調整嘛好不好我跟你們報告 那基金也要調來調去喔因為你老實講 我不跟你計較這個很重要耶不跟你爭論啦不跟你爭論再來"},{"start":10906.824,"end":10921.532,"text":"我跟委員報告要委員集齊啦因為天然災害救助基金去年多撥補了40億我知道我知道 我有看過資料題啦 不然高清環就喊喊救啦高清環影響的是動用第二預備金啦國內理運會通商二十 國外的理運會這個我確實"},{"start":10931.398,"end":10944.595,"text":"三個比較需要我去協調我幫你協調可以自行調整你一定可以自行調整你現在當了部長看你回答我今天看你回答非常的深入"},{"start":10947.697,"end":10954.766,"text":"我們要為成功想辦法不要為失敗找藉口我從來不會為失敗找藉口我們只是重現出一些事實"},{"start":10962.248,"end":10979.328,"text":"陳先生我是這樣簡單講那個站起來了好像我講的有批評到的就站起來不會啦不會給我再三分鐘好不好謝謝你站起來我就緊張我以為有批評你我要恭喜你"},{"start":10980.441,"end":11001.165,"text":"你們這次裡面有一個很大的成就就是關於口蹄疫的口蹄疫的話WOH五月份就要決定了要辭職營這花了24年的結果拔針終於要成功了好不好有沒有信心成功口蹄疫答"},{"start":11005.877,"end":11025.296,"text":"口蹄疫已經飛疫區了飛疫區到五月份才能公正報告沒有 那個是傳統豬瘟豬有三個疫病一個是肺痘豬瘟一個是口蹄疫一個是傳統豬瘟傳統豬瘟是最困難的我們花了四年而且是大家一起努力的結果已經通過了還是五月份才通過"},{"start":11025.836,"end":11050.748,"text":"沒有,它的科學委員會已經正式的通過建議大會那五月份是WHO的大會,大會會正式的宣布這表示台灣的努力啦台灣的製作是有名的但是現在市場也被列入了差不多固守本位再加公平多多加油來照顧我們這些養殖的一個農民好不好會,我們會努力"},{"start":11051.628,"end":11061.354,"text":"好不好 實在很多話要跟你請教 仔細又站起來了我不好意思再批評了 以後不給我講話謝謝陳董議員 謝謝陳部長謝謝 謝謝兩位 謝謝好 接下來我們請汪小林委員發言謝謝主席 有請部長好 請陳部長"},{"start":11087.746,"end":11098.751,"text":"我想這個從民進黨政府執政以來台海的關係越來越緊張尤其賴清德總統在3月13號又公布了這個所謂賴17條將中國定位為境外敵對勢力那麼昨天美國的戰略暨國際研究中心簡稱CSIS他稱"},{"start":11108.516,"end":11131.724,"text":"中共如果願意的話今天就能夠對台封鎖隔離並且揭露共軍圍台的四個步驟其中之一就是會切斷貿易阻擋商船跟貨船的靠近而我們知道其實台灣96%的能源以及70%的糧食都是靠進口所以在此本席想要請教請問部長"},{"start":11134.005,"end":11159.675,"text":"你们在去年的时候其实在国防外交委员会就曾经有做过一个报告就是如果说万一这个解放军封锁台湾那你们会怎么样的来维持台湾的粮食安全那报告里面有提出就现在的当时的国内的公粮糙米的库存可以供应七个月以上请问现在呢现在此时此刻我们的"},{"start":11161.338,"end":11179.087,"text":"現在大概也是目前是5.5個月然後等採收以後又會上升到大概8個月到9個月左右所以我們一般為時是8個月到12個月之間是 我想在這裡要提醒部長一件事情如果按照美國戰略及國際研究中心的說法"},{"start":11181.194,"end":11201.027,"text":"隨時隨地都有可能這個台灣立刻就被封鎖所以我們的糧食安全就是我們的儲備糧食應該要達到什麼樣的標準5.5個月夠嗎我想整個的糧食儲備我們沒有辦法等到8月份的時候等到稻米採收啊"},{"start":11201.755,"end":11221.089,"text":"沒有 我想我們剛才講的公糧是大概5.5個月的部分但是那純粹只是公糧那還有民糧的部分所以兩個加起來可以維持到一年那第二個部分我要跟委員報告的就是我們在針對糧食安全的儲備的時候會依照它的風險的情境而有不同的設計那像"},{"start":11223.11,"end":11235.125,"text":"這些風險的情境不只是戰爭更重要就是我們當我們遇到一些砸害的時候我們必須要去處理而且不只是稻米所以好所以按照就是部長您的說法就說其實台灣跟現在大陸關係沒有那麼緊張這個發生戰爭的風險不高"},{"start":11240.691,"end":11261.957,"text":"所以我們的糧食安全的準備會根據不同的風險去做相關的因應措施然後這些風險除了戰爭以外可能的引起以外還有一些天然災害還有一些重大災害所造成的影響"},{"start":11262.517,"end":11266.86,"text":"那這個部分我想我們都會有一些準備當然我們現在要講那個極端的狀況就是除了就是發生天然災害之外這是不可測的那麼另外就是萬一有緊急發生戰爭的狀況的時候到底農糧署的準備如何"},{"start":11278.268,"end":11293.739,"text":"依照現在經濟部所定班的民生必需品短缺時期的配給配售辦法裡面其實各個縣市政府都應該要開設配售站來實施這個10米的配售作業請問一下部長現在供應站配售站"},{"start":11294.66,"end":11317.311,"text":"有沒有你們已經有規劃了相關的設置地點嗎我想我們從我們的公糧倉庫到到所有的配售站到配售的發放站其實我們這個部分其實有一個非常完整的規劃而且我們也做相關的演練去做這樣的一個情況所以你們這些配售站有公告相關地點有讓民眾現在就知道你們的規劃嗎我們現在是應該還沒有"},{"start":11321.033,"end":11347.772,"text":"沒有 我們公糧的處所跟它的配售站我們現在都有充分的掌握但是相對的就是說地方政府是主要的配售站各個地方各個地方的政府那各個地方政府會根據它離距離公糧的距離它會去做設置這是屬於各地方政府要做的事情嗎難道我們依照這個辦法裡面看起來應該是不是 所有的東西都是中央跟地方一起合作的那相對的配售的部分"},{"start":11348.492,"end":11370.579,"text":"絕對不是中央直接去配售然後去發送所以我們會跟地方政府合作就是離公糧距離一個公糧倉庫可以配售多少個縣市我們都有相關的跟地方政府在合作所以我現在想了解就是說是你們到底有哪幾個縣市沒有設置公糧倉庫以及目前規劃的這個配售站"},{"start":11371.599,"end":11386.876,"text":"的情況如何是不是都已經安排好了跟各個地方政府協調的狀況如何因為我覺得這很重要因為如果說萬一台灣隨時隨地都有可能發生戰爭的時候這些資訊都必須要公開然後讓大家民眾很快的知道"},{"start":11387.236,"end":11406.15,"text":"公務員再請農糧署把資料給你好不好後面公務員再趕時間農業部這部分並沒有做好準備沒有我們都非常清楚我剛才說的我們現在有143個配售站而且這個配售站不是每一個縣市都需要我們會根據公糧的位置它已經"},{"start":11407.051,"end":11423.541,"text":"打破了縣市的邊界公糧到配售站 配售站到發售然後再供給的部分這個整個鏈結其實我們都有一個完整的規劃好 那就請部長麻煩請你把這個規劃資料再提供以後因為我覺得這個疫情非常重要這也是呼應這個濫情的時期好 謝謝"},{"start":11432.606,"end":11460.746,"text":"那謝謝翁曉琳翁委員那下一位請邱志偉委員發言謝謝主席我請農業部陳部長另外輔導師陳市長訓務師李市長漁業署王署長還有農水署李署長"},{"start":11466.189,"end":11474.474,"text":"來請部長跟署長幾個問題請教這個財務法通過然後這個專政總預算在經過立法院這個非理性的這個煽動之後當然會影響到你們業務的推動你們這本報告裡面業務報告裡面財務法影響的然後這個這個專政總預算不當煽動"},{"start":11496.323,"end":11504.419,"text":"所影響的影響哪些業務推動最為劇烈最為嚴重我先問一下啦漁業署王市長"},{"start":11510.396,"end":11530.817,"text":"我們現在財化法影響到大概最大一塊就是我們補助地方政府這些漁業建設啦或是養殖生產區的一個建設的部分因為到時候這裡如果切下去可能就我們的部分漁業署的部分可能會達到將近那我們怎麼去照顧農漁民呢"},{"start":11532.459,"end":11557.92,"text":"農業部所有預算都是照顧農民農民都集中在這個中南部我不曉得這個在野黨中南部的立委是怎麼看到這種事情還有良心嗎口口聲聲照顧農民跟漁民有大幅度非理性的煽動而且委員會我主持的會議農委會的農業部預算我們跨黨派支持"},{"start":11560.297,"end":11579.965,"text":"幾乎在院會的時候協商被兩三個惡人啊不分青紅皂白用情緒性非理性的來糟蹋農民來糟蹋漁民非常惡劣你說影響幾億跟委員報告大概將近會十億十億十億要用來照顧漁民的想到這個我這個血壓就升高"},{"start":11587.786,"end":11604.304,"text":"來 農水署的部分 請問一下那個李署長 農水署對地方上的這個農村建設非常重要不盪山洞還有這個採訪法修正之後 中央的補助的權限降低了好 影響多少金額"},{"start":11607.06,"end":11630.531,"text":"呃 報告委員我是農村水保署不是農村水保署這一樣 簡直農村 五個字啦 不是三個字啦三個字才是農水署 五個字是我們農村水保署 來是 謝謝委員關心啦那因為這次的三項 講重點 講重點因為我要精準諮詢 是是 我們那個我們的治山防災目前是大概是通過43億啦但是問題是 影響幾億嘛影響喔 欸"},{"start":11636.224,"end":11651.71,"text":"總共減少2.7億2.7億要做農村水土保持對不對我要說明一下2.7億是刪除以我們現在目前如果說這種錢他刪了下去這種事要保護農民生產的安全這種錢刪了下去"},{"start":11652.21,"end":11672.526,"text":"如果現在照這個財務法移出去的部分各部位平均分攤的時候各部位如果平均分攤的話 那個就是240億 總共大概240億你說整個農業部預算對 會大概240億到250億被移出去啦如果說照部位就是原本用在農營民身上 用在農業身上就少240億對不對 對這種國會也要不要罷掉"},{"start":11680.967,"end":11693.51,"text":"大罷免大成功才能對得起這個農民還有剛剛是農村發展與水土保守署沒有錯啦另外我問一下那個徐牧師這個市長這個"},{"start":11702.495,"end":11728.779,"text":"在紫關區的這個批發市場還有一個設備的這個補助紫關區這個非常重要是一個重要的一個這個家庭的批發市場這部分我希望能夠支持這經費也不多他們自籌五成希望中午那會不會受到這次影響會會你看看看"},{"start":11730.296,"end":11758.077,"text":"政府要做事要照顧農民要扶國立民這個可惡的在野黨三農民的預算 三餘民的預算這些是擁有農民資產就是說受到影響那能不能補助我跟委員報告齁在可能的情況之下我們一定會盡量去維持我們對地方特別是農業的協助我唯一能夠解決這個問題就是大罷免大成果"},{"start":11760.913,"end":11774.443,"text":"國會才能恢復常態 恢復理性 恢復這個國會該有的素質跟水準才能繼續福國利民好 另外這個湖內區農會 湖內區農會是農撫師陳市長 那個我們有開過會嘛 這部分有沒有受到影響"},{"start":11781.977,"end":11808.698,"text":"因為這個福島農會的那個推廣教育設施的改善的話這一部分是在編在基金裡面所以沒有影響目前是沒有受影響這我就比較安心不過我要跟委員說明我們基金每年由公務預算撥補大概371億370億左右由公務預算撥補所以它是會間接的還是會有影響不過我想我們還是會在可能的範圍之內來盡量來協助"},{"start":11812.319,"end":11831.827,"text":"這個部長你不要再講你越講我心都碎了這個沒有辦法去體訓農民是一個沒有辦法去照顧農民這些是惡質政客這是沒有良心的政客沒有良心的政黨老天有眼啊會懲罰他們來台電預算被砍"},{"start":11839.066,"end":11863.782,"text":"電費可能會調漲那農漁用的電調漲預算能不能追加我有一個報告就是我們對於農漁民本身用電的優惠跟補貼的政策不會變那去年上漲了以後我們今年度變了24.6億26億但是今年電價如果有調整的時候我想我們還是維持我們的政策但是我們會"},{"start":11864.762,"end":11873.171,"text":"更積極的向行政院去爭取相關的預算會不會影響目前對農業用電的補助因為這個用電本身24.26億是編列上一波漲價的補助這次在漲價的話我們專項的經費就沒有了大概20幾億"},{"start":11887.525,"end":11914.408,"text":"還要增加20幾億如果調整的幅度跟上次是一樣的話就是24.26億那我們現在還不知道電費是怎樣的調整不過不管怎麼樣我想我們都還會努力一定要用額外的經費啦因為在我們現在的預算裡面是沒辦法挪用的所以三萬七千戶的農業用戶都會受到影響我希望能夠具體去證據因為我時間到了遵守時間是一個"},{"start":11916.257,"end":11935.719,"text":"郭議員該有的數字謝謝主席謝謝邱委員把時間掌握得非常的精準那30秒是我送給你的來 下一位請徐宇貞徐委員"},{"start":11943.752,"end":11947.299,"text":"謝謝昭偉 待會您要多送我30秒我們請陳俊基部長好 請部長"},{"start":11956.141,"end":11972.848,"text":"委員好部長好我想剛剛我聽到前一個委員在質詢的時候一直在提到說什麼今年的農業部的哪一個數哪個數預算少多少請問一下部長請問一下農業部今年的總預算增加多少"},{"start":11973.516,"end":11986.828,"text":"今年的總預算在三減之後是增加了63.1億增加了63.1億那我想我們國民黨團又提到了如果有需要追加減的部分也歡迎農業部提出來那如果需要解凍的也請農業部盡快提出"},{"start":11991.352,"end":12014.14,"text":"我們應該有這樣子跟農業部對不過我要跟委員說明的就是我們所增加的預算有新的協助的項目這個非常重要所以剛剛有提到有新的項目需要追加減的歡迎跟我們立法院來提出我們已經有這樣的提言那剛剛有委員在那邊造謠然後挑撥然後喊大罷免我都很想請教主席今天這邊是經濟委員會嗎還是在這個造勢場合"},{"start":12017.941,"end":12041.943,"text":"大家要的應該是要質詢嘛不是在這邊喊這種什麼罷免誰罷免誰照顧農漁民不是嘴巴說說就好啊我是農漁民的眷屬啊我想我一直以來都在照顧農漁民所以我想部長這個部分希望我們就是就事論事啦那不要在這種場合一直在喊什麼大罷免我覺得這個真的非常非常讓人家覺得是不是專業的立委真的很非常非常的覺得"},{"start":12043.956,"end":12056.005,"text":"在這樣子的一個場合講出這樣的話一直號稱自己是專業立委真的很讓人家覺得不可思議那部長請教一下因為經濟部郭智慧部長他有發言預告說他任內會漲兩次電價也就是已經預告了"},{"start":12061.388,"end":12074.033,"text":"這個今年可能電價會再漲那禮拜五就要召開這個電價審議委員會所以說如果真的禮拜五召開之後依郭部長的說法應該4月份就會漲那農業用電也會跟著調漲那當然我想農業用電的成本增加之後呢也會讓我們多農民的這個他整個生產成本增加也會"},{"start":12083.817,"end":12105.886,"text":"帶動這個農漁產品的價格跟民生物價那請問部長剛剛您有提到針對這個部分你們今年其實已經有編了24.26億元的補貼店價但是那是指目前還沒調漲的狀況嗎也就是說如果4月份真的調漲的話請問部長是不是也可以為農漁民向中央請命然後能夠增加我們的這個"},{"start":12107.686,"end":12133.711,"text":"農業的電費要避免引發通膨的危機我想謝謝委員我想我跟委員都一樣的就是我們一定會想盡辦法去減輕與農民的負擔特別是農業用電的部分然後去年上一波漲價我們編列的24.6億但是它是預計在整年度用的那今年度如果預算有電費有做調整的時候如果需要額外的經費我們一定會去爭取"},{"start":12134.511,"end":12156.808,"text":"但是在爭取的過程中因為24.261是12個月我們可以有一些部分可以先去調整但是最後的預算一定不夠我們想我們一定會努力爭取那請部長就是說如果真的經費有不足的話你也可以就是隨同追加減預算一起送來立法院審議那國民黨團一定全力支持謝謝那另外就是針對今年的這個農產品貿易統計網"},{"start":12160.211,"end":12160.915,"text":"就台灣對於中國大陸的農產品出口總值達7億4743億美元"},{"start":12165.728,"end":12183.801,"text":"大概佔總體這個出口比例達15.18%然後尤其是農產品對大陸出口的年增率高達48.95那最重要的也就是說是所有出口市場中成長最快的那請問部長賴總統之前宣布賴17條並將大陸視為敵對境外勢力會不會影響114年農產品的出口那如果會的話農業部有沒有什麼應對的策略"},{"start":12194.449,"end":12215.242,"text":"我想從110年開始中國就是片面禁止一些農產品的輸出以後我們開始就持續的開拓高端的其他的市場這個目標我們會持續在走那去年度比較高最主要是它又恢復了一些部分的品項像鳳梨釋迦的部分那以農業部的立場"},{"start":12216.063,"end":12225.998,"text":"貿易的部分我想我們不會放棄任何一個可能有貿易的一個機會但是我們一定會持續的更積極的開拓其他的高端市場"},{"start":12227.079,"end":12249.741,"text":"就請部長這邊就是雖然我們賴總統宣布的賴17條但是還是希望部長能夠好好的去注意到我們農民的權益不能讓他們的這個受損好嗎我們會努力的就是將我們的UZEN農產品供應給國內也供應到國外去好謝謝部長那麻煩您謝謝好有一樣送30秒"},{"start":12255.207,"end":12258.39,"text":"好謝謝徐育貞委員那下一位請鍾嘉斌委員質詢對那我們中午不休息就開會到會議結束"},{"start":12279.438,"end":12291.017,"text":"主席 在黨委員間間列席的政府機關市長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請農業部陳部長好有請部長永旭市的莊司長農糧署姚署長和農經署的李署長好莊司長姚署長跟李署長"},{"start":12298.919,"end":12322.811,"text":"好 部長好 署長好 市長好 天災救助一作物類別分類分歧 檳榔肺源轉設施農業兼綠電 好 我們來看一下 部長來 為什麼交農要控訴這個王文威委員這樣的一段話 害慘了交農的收購價為什麼 一斤一百塊發布之後 為什麼交農底下寫 哎呀 害我們的拍賣市場價格沒有辦法正常 為什麼"},{"start":12326.229,"end":12354.766,"text":"去年我們遭遇到了上個颱風然後今年度我們那個是不是低溫造成的現在交農收成減少供應量不足對不對那請問這樣的結果收購價下降了跌產了消費者買到廉價香蕉嗎量價齁量量收購價產地收購價下跌了消費市場有買到便宜的香蕉嗎往下一頁為什麼盤商因為天然災害供應量減他當然價格他會提高啊"},{"start":12355.868,"end":12370.347,"text":"對不對 林鄭要提高啊可是她又用新聞操作又灌低了收購價拜託 署長 請署長要去關切一下不要讓媒體或有些錯誤的報導影響到產地農民的收益 可以嗎"},{"start":12371.24,"end":12388.715,"text":"可以我想我們會持續關切這個產銷的一個之間的那個鏈結好我們往下看齁這個在去年呢我們屏東其實不只屏東各地的因為天災農民損失慘重請問部長天然災害的救助金農損救助金是幫農民復耕還是幫他彌平所有他災害的損失"},{"start":12389.588,"end":12407.604,"text":"我想天然災害救助金的最主要是協助它能夠盡量的盡快的復耕但是如果收成損失了那要靠農業保險嘛是是這樣 往下看所以目前我們要知道作物有短期作物有長期作物復耕期短"},{"start":12408.407,"end":12426.95,"text":"他每次復耕又來添災 每次復耕又來添災但是我們貴署的規定一年只能補一次長期作物又不同了長期作物他可能收穫錢損失跟在耕作的時候的損失那麼作物的週期常常不一復耕的需求也不一樣你們怎麼樣定我們的救助的一些頻率"},{"start":12427.671,"end":12457.151,"text":"我跟委員報告 基本上我們是用作物的生產季為一個單位以生產作為單位對 像短期的話 它可能一個月一次嘛對那一季一季 它如果下個月再遇到的話 它還是可以所以它是用生產季那長期作物的話 過去是用歷年為單位那後來我們跟所有的討論就還是以生長季為單位如果我們做了大概六個作物做了調整請農糧署要跟農民宣布 不然很多農民都以為說只能補一次好不好"},{"start":12459.932,"end":12484.485,"text":"這個其實我們已經公告了公告後要加強宣傳我們是用生長劑為單位以生長劑來做一個天災救助的週期好 往下看好 濱南會員轉座 昨天跟你談了很久成效怎麼樣持續的努力在做這些廢員的工作那你想為什麼農民他不願意"},{"start":12485.458,"end":12509.005,"text":"那最主要是因為檳榔本身它的一個付出的勞力比較低然後它的價格的部分所以基本上它的因為你廢原以後它復耕時間會比較長也造成它的影響兩個原因第一個它現在撤掉了它就沒修理嘛對不對所以空窗期沒有收入嘛"},{"start":12509.525,"end":12527.983,"text":"第二個,轉作的新作物它的預期效益,不知道啊,我現在種陸來,我現在種其他的東西,我不知道會不會比平常好,是不是這樣?所以確定未來轉作的農作的收益,對農民很重要,農民才會知道說我轉作什麼,會賺錢,會比平常好,來往下看來,哪一種的作物的收益高?貴鳥、薑、芹菜"},{"start":12531.973,"end":12558.313,"text":"來 市長可以幫忙講 來 哪些比較高看季節 過年現在國際市場 休通好不會啦過年是外小市場啦 欠財是高的都不中啦他們有什麼共同特性他是市場需求高 對不對 作物週期短品質要求高 價格也不錯重要的 他是不是要一個高強度的設施內的栽培好 那現在設施栽培來往下看老農他負擔得起設施農業的高門檻嗎"},{"start":12561.202,"end":12584.824,"text":"你們可以幫助嗎?我們有增加那個補助的一個比例我告訴你,你不管怎麼幫助,不會超過三分之一啦但是三分之一農民也要出啦,他出不去啦所以呢,簡單結論來跟你講齁其實,設施農業,它如果種了高價值的作物如果說能夠屋頂型的光電搭配,來補充它的收益這個屋頂型的光電可以取代設施農業它的結構"},{"start":12586.806,"end":12593.965,"text":"這個是很清楚的所以我看莊老達市長一直在點頭所以這樣的方法設置農業跟光電結合農業部支不支持"},{"start":12597.377,"end":12621.846,"text":"所以我們的結論就是這樣子為什麼把農金署的書商找來?青農有技術沒有錢老農有地沒有錢但是農企業他能夠有訂單有技術有勞力找青農的勞動力配合上年老的地主的檳榔園然後找到光電業者來上面減輕他的設施的投資共創市營您覺得這個方式可以做嗎?"},{"start":12622.776,"end":12639.431,"text":"我覺得這個想法非常好,我們可以逐步地落實所以檳榔啊,檳榔才要被會員轉作,一定要往什麼?設施、農業去思考所以結論,我們的作物週期長短不一,你們復根的天災救助你剛才說了,按照它的行動的整體來計算,對不對?確定嗎?另外"},{"start":12644.295,"end":12649.84,"text":"所以最後請你承諾,設置實作的園區,你去找一筆地,讓農企業有辦法去種好好的植物來,高級的植物來,請他進來,種給農民看,種這裡看到種幾年可以賺錢,種香菜可以賺錢,種薑可以賺錢,這樣他們才有可能把他們的平衡方法,跟農企業,跟青農,"},{"start":12668.317,"end":12696.671,"text":"跟這些光電合作 有支持嗎我想我們會找適當的地點然後結合當地的地主還有一些願意實際耕作的甚至於有些光電業者可以上面可以附帶光電然後成立一個小的一個示範場域啦那後面的示範場域後面幾個董事要找喔永續是要找喔我們農糧署要找喔農金署要找喔趕快做起來做一個專案稍後來推出這個方案好不好是 我們朝這個方向來做好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位市長 署長 謝謝"},{"start":12698.722,"end":12705.727,"text":"謝謝主席好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員那下一位請郭國文委員質詢謝謝主席有請陳部長有請部長"},{"start":12724.135,"end":12746.501,"text":"部長好 部長零一二一的這個災後的復原跟復興非常重要那您有下去看一些水果藻類的部分那我也請輔導司的陳俊元司長下去對照於零四零三這是基本的態度行政院院長已經對外宣布過了可是我們要比對一下農業部門零四零三跟零一二一的差別性"},{"start":12747.341,"end":12774.45,"text":"零四零三的部分 農業部一個月的時候就說投入 宣布投入14億1830萬協助花蓮災區復原再出發其中有9.9億用在公共設施經費當然就包括農會 相關設施包括公糧肥料倉庫 超市 辦公設備空間的這個重建但是現在台南 已經一個月了沒聲沒水"},{"start":12775.669,"end":12797.622,"text":"差這麼多 為什麼這總共的經費不過是兩億而已陳市長在你旁邊碎碎念 他有去看過玉井農會有沒有嚴重 嚴重南化農會有沒有嚴重 南溪農會有沒有嚴重 大內總共加起來18家耶 目前都沒有消息 部長"},{"start":12798.649,"end":12818.33,"text":"你要不要表示一下?我跟委員報告,其實在第一時間的時候,我也簽字到農會,包括南興南化農會去看,那跟0403比起來,我覺得最大的差別就是0403的時候,那個行政院在第一時間就公告為災區,那因為公告為災區的話,現在是災區啊,我們有公告啊"},{"start":12820.1,"end":12840.462,"text":"那個0121我們有公告啦沒有那是最近才公告的沒有那也公告了嘛最後才公告公告一段時間了啦沒關係啦你繼續說你繼續說現在重點就是說其實這您所關心的包括農會的部分其實在這段時間我們已經收集的所有它2月25號就提案了就送上去了喔這進度有在追喔"},{"start":12841.022,"end":12860.301,"text":"我們相關的輔導措施都已經在處理包括它要重蓋的時候找臨時的處所的部分那現在最主要是一旦公告災區的時候那第一個部分就是可以動用到本來是台南市的災損金加上 那另外啦那個不夠 民財就不夠了公共設施中央要協助啦人家都在想像那個以前0206那條街"},{"start":12863.504,"end":12883.501,"text":"不是 現在就是說行政院的經費預算怎麼 咱都不能影響到救災啦 院長已經講了啦我當然同意這樣子 所以我們會跟內政部那邊的經費 我們會來協助內政部啦 內政部 你現在又問你的態度嘛你當初花蓮就給了14億多嘛 為什麼台南都沒有 當時要選不"},{"start":12885.65,"end":12894.78,"text":"這個部分因為我們經費的動資因為他中央公告了以後我們報上去他同意的上面的動資報上去了嗎現在內政部現在在彙整"},{"start":12896.7,"end":12917.924,"text":"會診 你還沒報上去沒有 我們已經報上去了你們報上去報多少應該我們報多少我們對於這個對於農會的部分就他摘損的額度就是這些鄉鎮都有送上去2億已經報上去了要說一下速度好不好第二個 那個部長不只是復原還有復興你還花了2.4億"},{"start":12922.177,"end":12936.009,"text":"來作為花蓮那時候的一個振興喔為什麼我強調因為花蓮跟我現在所屬的宅區的部分兩個都一樣靠農業靠觀光你還發了農粉幣250元70萬張總經費1.5億而且再加上其他的部分總共振興計畫2.4億這邊要不要發"},{"start":12945.979,"end":12970.419,"text":"我想花蓮花那個農產品最主要是它交通中斷變成一個隔離我們那邊也有交通也有受到影響光光都掉了五成那個措施不一樣不一樣你要想辦法不一樣你就不用振興了嗎我們很願意去協助它的一個相關的農產品行銷這一次不是天災而已還有兩次天災還有包括這個低溫降雨的部分也造成打擊雙重打擊"},{"start":12972.18,"end":12996.529,"text":"對啊我們天然災害的部分我們沒問題處理天然災害不可以天然災害後面的行銷我現在後面的行銷我們會來協助後面的行銷但是不是用農粉幣的方式來處理交通的部分那個花蓮交通的部分交通部已經答應了那我們這邊也可以提出一些振興的方案我就是要聽你這個對但是不是用農粉幣用其他的方式來處理不一定是農粉幣但是至少要一個因地制宜的振興方案我們可以來做一些振興的方案"},{"start":12998.084,"end":13016.278,"text":"應該可以立即 我想我我這個禮拜好 這個禮拜這個禮拜我想我會跟我們同仁討論這個禮拜好不好這個禮拜給我一個答覆給你一個答覆大概用什麼方向大概用什麼方向有我們這裡都沒有 這裡就沒有是對不對好 最後我再問你一下因為這一次呢降雨的風窟不均"},{"start":13017.199,"end":13029.873,"text":"所以以至於這個過去的擴大灌區非常的重要農田 農水署做得不錯啦但是三座不夠啦後面還有五加四座的部分啦什麼時候給錢 什麼時候到位 什麼時候開始做這個我是不是可以請我們的來 組長請 蔡組長"},{"start":13034.858,"end":13054.919,"text":"是 非常感謝委員的關心 那在委員的支持之下 那我們這個第一期那個三座之血是完成了那第二期因為用地也都第二期用地已經取得了那接下來是五座 那部長有特別指示 後續要特別的加強所以我們預計在今年六月 那麼就可以開工我跟您講五家事業並規劃啦"},{"start":13056.761,"end":13078.488,"text":"是 共同進行啦現在的極端氣候這種情況底下 合併三四五呢是 委員指導得很好因為我們第二期就是把這個系統二跟系統三合併發包對 就是要合併嘛那我們如果系統四跟系統五如果用力也能夠取得的話我們會隨時再發進來以上好 那請部長支持最後部長再請教一個"},{"start":13080.268,"end":13097.419,"text":"對整個台南牛肉湯這個特境的產業影響非常之大的部分就是台牛協定影響牛肉湯現在整個這個行情每公斤140元已經漲到170了而整個飼牛的產業從817變693場市場市越來越少喔這種情況底下以後呢量少就會價高"},{"start":13106.664,"end":13134.865,"text":"所以我是說這個是有影響影響到整個庶民經濟也影響到台南的觀光的動能部長這個我之前就請教過了關鍵點是什麼你知道嗎關鍵點就是你要確保乳牛的肉源不至於減少你不要去找替代人員的黃牛三位那些都不好啦你聽我意思嗎但是現實上就是一直在減少啊"},{"start":13136.229,"end":13153.611,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 依我們現在目前針對這個牛屠宰的數量來講齁他去年反而比前年還高啦哪有 去年淘汰的第一個乳牛是4204頭今年育智只有3700沒有 我用屠宰的數量是最準的啦"},{"start":13154.111,"end":13165.797,"text":"去年是41673 四萬一千六百七十三頭前年是四萬一千五百四十頭所以基本上那個屠宰量是相對維護增加你不要短期性的我希望你能夠保這個量"},{"start":13166.983,"end":13192.955,"text":"對 我希望說把這個量維持著維持住對 這個維持著它不會影響到整個牛肉糖產業好不好我了解不會影響到整個台南觀光的動能了解嗎我了解委員的關心所以我們在乳牛轉成屠宰變成牛肉的湯圓這個很關鍵這兩個要平衡這個要平衡是 好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席給我這麼久的時間謝謝好謝謝郭國文委員"},{"start":13194.198,"end":13195.239,"text":"那下一位請陳廷飛委員諮詢"},{"start":13222.861,"end":13224.824,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長好請部長"},{"start":13233.291,"end":13254.722,"text":"部長這個待會的話題我先跟部長報告一下就是說我們現在因為天氣的問題那前陣子是寒極地瓜新化跟新式那麼第一時間我們也去現場看那麼在目前為止好像我們也還沒得到"},{"start":13256.242,"end":13277.467,"text":"這個部分我們速度真的有點慢第二個部分就是芒果其實我相信這種天氣所以現在是芒果後面可能還有荔枝龍眼這個陸續都一定會發生相關的問題那麼我相信在3月19號"},{"start":13279.247,"end":13305.361,"text":"我們辦公室就向農業部發文了要求要重視我們的芒果還有我們的相關這些荔枝龍眼果樹的問題有玉井南西南化佐鎮大內然後還有相關其他的區域希望要多去關心那3月24號我們農業部就迅速發文給市府農業局要求速報部長我今天為什麼要特別提出這個問題"},{"start":13307.307,"end":13336.527,"text":"其實我們一定要製造在整個我們農損的速報甚至SOP要把它建立起來過去就是因為地方政府都在等中央可是這是錯的啊每次我們去看完之後還是要速報啊可是我們當時候都是上面先做然後地方慢做所以導致農民都覺得怎麼速度這麼慢"},{"start":13338.482,"end":13346.215,"text":"所以我當時候地瓜的時候 你知道嗎 連同這次芒果也是連地瓜 我跟農民說 你趕快 趕快去剝"},{"start":13348.737,"end":13367.171,"text":"去居公所訴報 然後也還拜託議員 陳B議員跟李偉智議員結果呢 沒有到達20% 怎麼可能 光我們知道的資料就有了農民都說 沒有啦 我們如果去 一定都會被記住因為中央還沒有資料"},{"start":13369.431,"end":13394.876,"text":"我說錯了你們要先去訴報要讓區公所知道你們有這些損害那麼他才能收集這些資料給農業局再統一給農業部農業部才能派相關人員來做會刊對不對這是程序嘛可是我們到目前為止地方政府其實還不知道這樣的程序"},{"start":13396.284,"end":13410.656,"text":"這是很危險的啊所以當時候地瓜的時候還拜託議員去拜託區公所去奉上有受損地瓜的農民趕快來區公所訴報這樣才達到20%欸否則農民都覺得說那補也不好 那給區公所說也不好啊"},{"start":13419.522,"end":13437.495,"text":"所以這次芒果也是耶芒果當時候當農民跟我反應的時候我就跟農民說你趕快你去跟區公所訴訟說要不好了連農會的總幹事也這樣的認為喔我說你錯了你們趕快去跟區公所說"},{"start":13439.219,"end":13456.343,"text":"區公所才會知道你們已經有損害了那農業部已經知道了農業部已經透過我我已經正式發文他農業部知道了可是地方政府還是要統一這些資料送到農業部農業部已經在這邊等了還好我們一直追3月24號你們發了這個文給地方這是我們追的"},{"start":13467.484,"end":13479.912,"text":"所以這張文很辛苦耶3月20日你們才發給農業局農業局在3月25日才發文給各區公所說趕快去了解所有災損的狀況我今天會拿這個講就是說我們的SOP一直以來都沒建立起來導致農民都覺得我們慢半拍"},{"start":13492.725,"end":13519.906,"text":"到底是誰慢的 不知道啊各位 第一件最簡單的一句話就說阿勒農業報啊那你不是很委屈你們不是很委屈嗎 問題是第一階段區公所都還沒報資料 農業局都還沒報資料那光有我們我想你們是第一時間在 3月19號應該我是最快發文給你們 因為我跟農民的關係不一樣"},{"start":13521.803,"end":13543.269,"text":"他們是信任我們所以發生什麼問題都會跟我們講說這道火水很漂亮但是都沒調過因為天氣天氣的因素所以部長會用這個部分就是說請把SOP建立起來我已經講了數次了可是這個SOP還是沒有建立起來"},{"start":13544.295,"end":13561.041,"text":"我跟委員報告SOP就在這一邊那是公所的人裝傻啦我敢這樣講啦就是他們用被動的方式去處理那農業部現在目前有這樣子的農民有速報的方式那我們也保留一個彈性我們可以"},{"start":13561.661,"end":13581.239,"text":"主動公告所以我們改良廠其實非常辛苦他們隨時在掌握這個狀況所以就是因為你們還有另外一個叫主動公告所以地方政府就說你們都去找立委立委可以叫農業部主動公告問題是他們根本都沒有清楚到底所有的災損狀況"},{"start":13582.921,"end":13603.312,"text":"因為我們的災損要公告要到達百分之二十我們的所謂農業部直接公告就像說有天災那個一下子颱風下來全部都吹到倒上去 那就不用再說了那個就可以主動公告可是像這種有延遲性的或是有這種天氣變化的每一個地方都不一樣"},{"start":13604.352,"end":13632.579,"text":"所以就一定要由各區公所來做一個處理那不是區公所裝傻連農業局都在裝傻我想這個部分我想我會再跟地方政府做一個比較明確的指引我覺得這個要要求那第二個部分就是您所關切的芒果的部分因為它有生理弱果的現象所以它相對的比較困難一點我們會等生理弱果的時候才會去確認沒有啦 部長我告訴你"},{"start":13634.329,"end":13659.327,"text":"他們現在 他們都是轉嫁的啦 整個花瀉掉就沒有過那還有什麼叫生理弱果的狀況所以我告訴你 你們不要用你們既定的他們現在通報了 現在的狀況就是花瀉掉 結果乾乾淨淨的過都不一樣就像地瓜 你知道嗎 一個半月的地瓜本來是要這樣子"},{"start":13660.885,"end":13668.694,"text":"正常是這個樣子可是在這一次在心事跟心話你知道變成怎樣連一隻手指頭都不夠連一隻這樣子這隻手指頭都沒有辦法"},{"start":13674.505,"end":13691.716,"text":"就跟過去的生長狀況都不一樣了你要等什麼你還要等什麼好啦 部長我們有我們的專業的團隊改良專業那位去判斷我告訴你 你的專業要不要聽到齁都輸人在基層 在第一層在撐這個農民啦你這樣說對我們研究人員是一種侮辱啦我們有侮辱喔 部長部長 你這樣講你要小心喔我們有侮辱喔我都很尊重我們的基層人員喔"},{"start":13703.823,"end":13711.205,"text":"我哪一句話侮辱我們的七層大院是你們要你們要結合人家地方的聲音你們過去都站在你們的專業立場你們完全沒有跟地方人在地方爭多久啊人爭多久啊農民狠天災害不一定全部是災害我告訴你啦 部長就像我跟你講的啊你的漢籍本來這麼大口 一個半月要這麼大口個月存一支都不夠"},{"start":13730.73,"end":13745.585,"text":"過去已經違反到之前的生長季現在它落果之後 那花落了之後果完全沒有 那一看就知道了這個我有看過 在之前 在好幾年前的關田就是這個樣子"},{"start":13747.226,"end":13755.448,"text":"所以部長你不用替我遞帽子我都很尊重我們的基站領域我沒有尊重所以你不用戴我帽子我站在的是農民的立場我希望我們專業人員也能夠聽到我們地方農民的聲音這是我一直的堅持對過去到現在我的立場都很一樣我沒有侮辱任何一個專業人員請部長也不要給我戴帽子"},{"start":13771.472,"end":13782.144,"text":"我如果想侮辱冒犯林我可以道歉但是我對我們的專業我們改良黨的專業是必須的我時間有限啦我再來跟部長請教啦我們後輩都我們歡呼啦我們現在的人力編制跟組織編制到底怎麼解決啦"},{"start":13789.933,"end":13801.264,"text":"我們現在目前就承包我們的中南能公共建設這是基礎備用那更重要就是人力組織的部分重點是你們的人力編制跟機關整個組織編制嘛有錢沒有人要怎麼辦行政院在審一個組織他不會說這個禮拜去下個禮拜就下來什麼時候嘛從去年一直談的就是這個議題嘛你去看我講這個蘭花園區"},{"start":13814.016,"end":13832.178,"text":"我告訴你 部長不是只有你 我跟你講而已從陳其仲主委一直到現在我每次後避蘭花園區 我們怎麼提高它的位階我們一直談到的就是這個掛牌之後 不要讓它只有掛牌"},{"start":13833.502,"end":13848.541,"text":"所以現在我們這個計畫花卉產業創新園區我們已經進入公建計畫沒錯可是你有公建計畫你有這個預算問題是你的人員組織到底我們要等到什麼時候現在的關卡在哪裡"},{"start":13849.895,"end":13866.69,"text":"我跟委員報告一個組織的轉變跟籌設不是說我們報了以後准了就下來是 現在的關鍵在哪裡人總本身還要去詢問各單位的意見然後完了以後還要送到行政院你們現在打算要讓他跟什麼結合"},{"start":13868.431,"end":13882.702,"text":"我們現在跟農業縣所的花卉分所結合啊對啊 你們跟花卉分所結合嘛所以你們農業部這邊的人力問題都沒有問題嘛現在是在人事總數沒有 總人數我們也會做傾升"},{"start":13883.783,"end":13899.465,"text":"提升嘛我是說你們的部分你們都檢討完了嘛我們已經3月17號已經送到人員那邊去了你們都檢討完了現在到底卡關卡在哪裡沒有現在就是人事總署他循程序要去問各機關的意見嘛"},{"start":13900.446,"end":13925.323,"text":"那多久?不知道這個要人總那邊所以你們3月17號送了我們該做的我們都做了你們做了3月17號你們送了在整個蘭花園區的人力編制跟機關組織編制你們3月17號就送了現在在等行政院人事總署現在在詢問每一個地方他們的意見那人事總署現在你們有去接洽他的意見如何?審議中審議中,意見呢?"},{"start":13928.137,"end":13955.484,"text":"沒有 他全部繞完了以後他才會給我們意見然後請我們提供意見再送回去因為一個組織要重新建立沒有那麼簡單所以部長所以你們現在沒辦法掌控狀況只是你能夠掌控是你們現在資料都送出去了對 然後我們盡可能去說服一些意見跟花卉實驗所結合送出去了然後提升人力組織跟那個結合然後提升人力然後就看人事總署怎麼處理了是不是是好 安"},{"start":13956.864,"end":13975.283,"text":"希望一個月你隨時跟我們報告我想我會隨時把這個進度跟委員說明可以嗎可以否則我們在這邊講得很大聲然後人家又這樣給你順便看到底怎麼樣都不知道沒有啦 我跟你報告真正的啟動是在2月初才啟動的所以這個速度來講其實已經是蠻快的"},{"start":13975.703,"end":13985.807,"text":"是二月份才啟動我們已經講多久了我們講多久了部長我們從去年就開始講了講人力組織喔對啊所以你們就慢了半拍我們從去年就開始講了如果這個行政院沒有同意的時候你動都沒有用啦所以我們花了很多時間跟人走做溝通這也是委員在幫忙的啊"},{"start":13998.851,"end":14027.005,"text":"好啦我這個我擺的那麼辛苦啦拜託主席給我這就是後邊藍花橫枯那個部長你知道這是什麼嗎等一下可以來放一下好這是什麼你可不可以知道這是蘭展的公仔啊公仔啊這叫什麼這叫什麼你看你都不知道你看你都不知道這叫什麼奧奇獸啊奧奇獸叫什麼奧奇獸啊來我不知道這叫我們的蘭花獸"},{"start":14031.133,"end":14048.005,"text":"所以我是要推未來我們應該要把這個公仔推廣出去這個才是我們的重點啦我們要有一個吉祥物代表我們的貨幣蘭花園區吉祥物放主席台前面他就可以隨時入境進入農業部再跟好"},{"start":14060.938,"end":14086.244,"text":"好謝謝陳秦飛委員那我們接下來請賴瑞榮委員質詢好謝謝主席請陳部長部長部長這一次的這個總預算的審查農業部被刪跟凍也相當的多刪的總數是多少"},{"start":14088.392,"end":14096.838,"text":"農業部的部分總共刪的是20.14億那被凍結的部分呢30億左右30.94吧凍的部分呢就是30億左右30億左右這兩個應該也是創下這幾年的新高嘛對不對對"},{"start":14103.906,"end":14127.743,"text":"我想這個那這個對整個未來的農業部的運作會不會產生重大的影響我想一定是有影響的特別是在山檢的部分因為他刪了很多特定的科目那剛才有特別提到就是說國內的採旅費其實我們農業部非常多的要去現勘的不管是天然災害或者是山區這個當然一定都會影響那我今天特別注意到包括我們的一些"},{"start":14129.545,"end":14145.924,"text":"這個將來要天然災損的部分也會受到影響是這樣嗎是這個是主要是在特別收入基金的部分嗎對因為過往我想委員都很支持我們的很多基金的預算但是基金預算一旦被刪減以後在預算法規定就不能就沒有啦"},{"start":14146.204,"end":14171.289,"text":"沒有以後超支的部分就不能動用第二億倍金可是天然災害有它的不確定性以去年來講我們就超過了40億那行政院所以去年三個颱風農損40億所以去年花了多少農損70幾億所以花了40億然後增加就是行政院撥補特別給我們的40億那其中有一部分行政院二倍金給我們40億那我們自己的那個咧我們自己的基金花了多少"},{"start":14172.15,"end":14188.739,"text":"我們今年的基金是611億然後我們天然災編列的是27 28今年到39億所以這個3減掉了9000萬其實會影響到未來我們跟中央爭取到二倍金的一個對還有因為產交調節也會有影響因為產交調節我們進行也會因為"},{"start":14191.841,"end":14206.939,"text":"天氣的不順的時候資金才要調節的時候經費不夠那也不能申請動用二倍金那如果今年像去年一樣一樣遇到了這樣三個颱風遇到了可能70億的一個災損的話那我們在協助農民跟整個救助上會不會產生影響"},{"start":14208.052,"end":14234.968,"text":"一定會有影響但是以農業部的立場我們一定想辦法去協助那必要的時候可能就要用借的方式來處理跟銀行借嗎沒有我們可能可能就還是要抱怨啊用跟我們的農債基金來借錢跟農債基金來借錢對就原來本來這些可以但是這不是常態齁這個就是說因為很多委員不知道說他刪的好像只有九千萬意思而已但是相對他影響的是後面第二預備金的動資"},{"start":14237.338,"end":14252.323,"text":"所以這個部長好不好把這個再講得更清楚一點為什麼刪掉了9000萬影響到第二預備金的動資我想我們的特別收入基金包括農發農損農還有天然災害基金本身我們都是利用公務去撥補以後"},{"start":14253.323,"end":14282.078,"text":"那公務撥補如果說在撥補的這個項目裡面有被刪減的時候那只要你刪減那你依照預算法就不能動資第二預備金可是很可就是說我們的基金每一年都超支大概30億到50億所以等同說這個項目被刪減了所以未來無法申請這個行政院的第二預備金的動用行政院第二預備金是我們主要當我們超支的時候可以請行政院支援"},{"start":14282.478,"end":14299.146,"text":"那現在就不行了去年是動用了多少去年光災損的部分就40億了40億的行政院地位備金所以今年度如果發生這樣狀況因為被刪減而無法動用這40億的地位備金對 就不能向行政院申請所以這40億的地位備金就不能跟行政院"},{"start":14299.386,"end":14312.77,"text":"對 我們變成說要想辦法由行政院看有沒有其他的經委可以來支持所以這樣的刪減其實對於農民造成很大的一個影響是非常大的影響這幾年特別是氣候異常的狀況所以永遠不知道會是什麼狀況去年連來三個大颱風的影響所以造成這麼多農損那今年這樣刪減導致於40億的地位備金無法動用這對農業跟對農民其實是很大的一個風險"},{"start":14321.793,"end":14341.833,"text":"對 一個很重要的就是去年三個颱風 今年各位委員可以 我跟委員報告今年從年初到現在已經二十幾個品項公告為天然災害最主要是低溫 低溫還有一些比較低的溫度所以其實氣候變遷已經造成這種極端天道造成農業的損失越來越頻繁部長有沒有什麼樣的補救措施可以來做的"},{"start":14342.965,"end":14360.127,"text":"我想我們如果說必須要超支的時候我們還是會向行政院爭取他除了第二預備金還有沒有其他的經費可以來協助的那如果不能協助的時候我想我們還是會申請去向農債基金來借錢好 了解"},{"start":14360.407,"end":14373.201,"text":"那另外我們這幾年的防疫也做得不錯啦不管是口蹄疫 出瘟等等我們都做了很多很不錯的結果但是我也看到我們的這個防疫的預算也被刪減包括被刪減被凍結啦這個會不會產生影響非常大的影響喔其實我們"},{"start":14380.327,"end":14401.228,"text":"做非洲豬瘟是亞洲就是只有日本和我國是還是維持非洲豬瘟的非疫區那非疫區的一個宣導除了在邊境的宣導是非常重要的那這些東西都需要一些經費來支持那整個那個豬瘟現在我們拔針了嘛但是我們還是要更緊實的去處理持續的去做宣導"},{"start":14401.749,"end":14428.955,"text":"所以要不斷宣導 包括在這個入戶禁的部分那些的經費也是這邊的經費嘛我們是希望說像這類的媒體文宣是其實我們的宣導算做得相當因為進來之後一直不斷的提醒你不要帶一些相關的豬肉製品啊不要什麼甚至有很多的其實也減少被開罰同時間也減少入闖的機會所以這個很重要就這些經費被這樣的刪除凍結了之後會導致未來執行商會不會遇到問題"},{"start":14430.235,"end":14450.156,"text":"對 所以我也希望委員能夠了解其實農業部的這些媒宣的部分其實都是在針對我們的相關的這些政策還有必須要我們的利害關係人老百姓知道的這些訊息的傳遞啦那這個傳遞是非常重要的我覺得就為了一個雞蛋用這種報復性的煽動我認為很不合理"},{"start":14450.616,"end":14480.036,"text":"雞蛋是一個政策性的因素嘛就當時的時候缺蛋的時候大家是怎麼在罵的罵沒有蛋連個蛋都沒得吃就趕快努力從國外進蛋進來以後然後又開始罵啊為什麼進蛋進來啊那進蛋進來就有能力進蛋呢我們當然就努力的努力讓他能夠進來嘛那如果任何的違法或輸這個都可以調查嘛但是用這樣的方式來惡意的去把這些的經費全部給凍結跟刪除我認為這個其實對對農民對國家都是個傷害部長應該同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":14480.556,"end":14507.009,"text":"是 我想我們在經濟委員會所有的委員因為對農業夠了解所以我們在經濟委員的委員經費都沒什麼刪那很可惜的就是在黨團的部分那些對農業不夠了解的人這又是另外一個問題在經濟委員會內大家理性討論之後都認為可以的到了朝野協商的時候完全不理解用政治因素直接把你砍掉那經濟委員會在審什麼預算那根本就不用審了嘛到朝野審上去的非理性非專業的人員全部照政治判斷來刪那這樣子經濟委員會幹嘛"},{"start":14509.23,"end":14530.821,"text":"幹嘛開 就直接送出去就好了 國外旅費 我們並不是國外旅費就是出差去玩的其實有非常多的國內旅費 國外旅費 其實都是針對農產品的行銷 還有對於天然災害看災有實際需要 這幾年能夠不斷的往外行銷出去也是靠這些經費嘛 但如果不該花的 我們都已經努力在要求刪減了嘛 但是你不能夠不分青紅皂白的這樣亂山亂棟 整體要求你就是直接"},{"start":14533.702,"end":14549.802,"text":"整體的棟 整體的山那對於有需要的這些部分一方面又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草不喝水那是怎麼活你要農業推廣要做得好又要照顧農民又要整個行銷什麼都要做那你又不給他經費又要把他砍光光又要把他棟結掉那你要怎麼做"},{"start":14550.342,"end":14578.257,"text":"有的動機還要求到大院來報告那還不是在委員會的報告大院的報告有可能拖到下半年那情同是被刪除掉那要怎麼做所以我認為這些的都是亂象啦我認為這個都應該我還是希望農業部還是要持續的不斷對外發聲讓他知道這些惡劣的狀況才能夠遏止將來這樣的事情不斷的發生好不好我覺得農民跟農業是大家的不應該分任何的黨派應該要公平來思考這樣惡劣的做法如果未來持續發生的話我覺得對台灣的農民是非常不利的"},{"start":14578.917,"end":14605.489,"text":"最後一個請教一下 前鎮漁港的招商進度目前狀況怎麼樣前鎮漁港的招...我是不是可以請那個漁業署署長說明一下包委員 我們那一個多光農運銷中心那之前有經過三次的這一個標注作業那當時因為還在興建中所以廠商沒有辦法預期他未來可以做什麼那目前接近完工了 我們現在改走促餐去年底我們也辦了一次你年限拉到多長"},{"start":14607.045,"end":14629.959,"text":"年限現在基本上會是20年20年那我們現在基本上因為跟委員報告那一個運銷中心的量體非常大啦他地坪大概就2萬坪所以未來的這一個招商條件裡面我們會盡量減少這些廠商該有的負擔那怎麼樣來增加誘因部長這個請跟署長協助好不好"},{"start":14630.179,"end":14649.371,"text":"一定要增加更多願意順利的找到好的廠商來這個我多次的強調一定要找到好的廠商找到好的廠商這件事情就會很順利成功如果找到不好的廠商不夠強的廠商的話那他就會非常的辛苦那我希望這件事情大家那麼努力部長一定要盯緊這整個進度好不好我找先再跟部長詳談好 謝謝好 謝謝賴瑞榮委員那我們是不是有請鄭正前委員謝謝"},{"start":14666.385,"end":14691.603,"text":"謝謝主席 我要請一下陳部長好 請部長阿維好部長好 之前我們曾經問過一個農業移工的相關的問題那我們就繼續追蹤一下這件事情我想說截至113年底就是農業移工開放原額是兩萬名你知道實際引進有多少名嗎到目前"},{"start":14694.767,"end":14716.625,"text":"應該是13,580多人到去年底是13,800多人所以其實這一兩個月來其實有陸陸續續已經在通過了所以這13,500多人那我在想說這部分我想說可能還是要稍微去調整一下這個部分因為我們上次有特別提到因為相較於其他因為台灣缺工情況非常的嚴重各個產業都缺工"},{"start":14717.366,"end":14739.713,"text":"可是大部分的產業他們只要那個移工一開放出來的時候大概都會秒殺像營建移工啊什麼大概都一開放就秒殺能像農業移工這樣子我們開放兩萬個名額現在只進來一萬三千多個其實情況還是特殊的那我想說這個部分並不是表示說我們農業不缺工我們看到112年農業勞動力調查的時候"},{"start":14742.594,"end":14761.861,"text":"就是阻力農家缺工的情況就短缺常骨工大概有4216人次4000多人 對那麼短缺臨時工用高達83000多人次這其實就表示說其實農業還是缺工啦那既然缺工那為什麼說去申請的意願又沒有那麼高部長你可以簡單回答一下"},{"start":14762.361,"end":14781.663,"text":"我想申請的部分他有本勞的一個比例這是一個問題那過去有一些小型的有沒有他本勞是1比3現在已經改成1比1了這個部分我們把它解決了第二個就是有些很多東西是季節性的就是說他請了以後他沒有辦法一整年都讓他工作"},{"start":14782.063,"end":14789.789,"text":"所以我們用外展工的方式去處理你講到這很好其實就是說就季節性的狀態因為農業跟一般產業不一樣所以農業有非常明顯季節性的問題所以它就會有農忙跟農閒的時候所以要請工不一定那麼容易請所以我們講說外展的農業移工的時候我們開放了外展農業移工"},{"start":14803.9,"end":14821.938,"text":"可是其實也沒有用滿所以我當時提到一個狀態就是說有沒有可能農業部跟勞動部這邊去協商一個狀態能夠讓這些移工能夠跨業別的去運作是不是有可能會解決這樣子的一個問題因為我先講一下勞動部這個狀態到今年1月底為止有超過9萬個移工是失聯的狀態"},{"start":14828.544,"end":14841.535,"text":"那勞動部他也很清楚這九萬多個失聯移工的時候有很大量是跑到農業的領域當中去當黑工了那在這樣的情況之下的時候呢我在想說如果能夠讓外長的農業"},{"start":14843.837,"end":14868.275,"text":"移工的時候然後跟其他非農業部門的營建移工等等其他相關他們能夠有跨業別的去做一個資源是不是有可能可以解決這個問題我想請教一下因為這個我上次就有提我想請教部長有沒有跟勞動部這邊做一個協商其實我持續跟勞動部協商那現在遇到一個目前沒辦法解開的就是說當初他進來有個勞動契約這是一件事情"},{"start":14870.777,"end":14885.916,"text":"他們很多業者就是說他規定週休二日要休息嘛如果他跑到農業來做的話那些業者擔心什麼太累了以後會影響他正常班的一個時間點啊理解喔"},{"start":14886.437,"end":14910.429,"text":"那個部長因為我在想說因為其實不同業別都有它的特殊性在可是農業移工這個部分的時候它確實很特殊所以我們希望說部長這邊能夠多花點心思去溝通那也許說某一些產業的移工他們也許可以配合那這個部分的時候我想請部長這邊再跟勞動部加緊去聯繫然後能夠解決這樣的一個問題這樣問題能夠解決也可以同時解決掉這麼多就是逃跑"},{"start":14915.071,"end":14936.081,"text":"移工的問題我先跟你們報告我們現在過渡時間找不到新的方法過渡時間我們就把現在的那個外展可以跨區以前是只能在這個縣市嘛現在跨區的話就可以做調度資源然後第二個部分我也跟勞動部長洪部長提到就是說農會本身他有比較多的量能"},{"start":14936.681,"end":14961.297,"text":"但是他又牽涉到本勞跟那個外勞的比例我也希望他能夠調降讓更多的農會來參與的時候那就可以變成一個調度網那這樣的話就可以支援這種所謂的臨時性的缺工理解部長那這部分就請跟勞動部這邊加緊去做一個協調因為缺工的問題真的很嚴重而且真的每個產業都在那農業部門也是必須要特別去關注到的"},{"start":14961.917,"end":14988.028,"text":"那我接下來我想問一下因為最近農業部有韓文各地方政府嘛要求清查農保資格這件事情對不對因為省紀部之前有提到說我們現在投保91萬的那個農保當中有大概8萬5千人疑似有其他正職的工作那包括什麼律師啊 立正式建築士等身份我覺得這些問題排除都沒有問題可是因為在嚴查的過程當中的時候呢也感覺上碰到有很多曾經"},{"start":14990.402,"end":15013.727,"text":"當過農民的真的老農好像也受到波及那針對這個部分我想請教部長針對這次在清查農保資格的時候有沒有一些具體的一個依據跟審查標準我想我們的審查標準其實都是一次性的然後我先說今天在業務報告我也提到了針對光電的部分因為農民必須要有一分地然後實際從農"},{"start":15015.127,"end":15033.707,"text":"那光電業者如果說地主把這個地租給人家去養殖以後做光電的時候那他可能因為沒有土地了會造成農保本身會被退出那我們這個部分我們用專案的方式配合國家政策的話我們可以讓他維持他的農保資格"},{"start":15034.427,"end":15061.17,"text":"那這個部分其實都解決了所有的光電的政策的部分然後第二個部分就是審計部所查的是領取天然災害但是不是農保人的部分那這個部分其實我們了解都是幾乎是同一個家庭的啦有時候領的時候就叫兒子去領有沒有這個部分喔審計部所提供的這些數據只是有疑慮有疑慮不代表他就是一定要退保"},{"start":15061.65,"end":15087.181,"text":"所以就個案的部分我想我們也會協助就是地方政府特別是農會部長我在想說你講的那些部分我在想說真正的有違規該要剔除的就剔除可是有些曾經在農業領域真的很認真在做可能因為年紀的部分或者是因為配合政策的部分可能租給輕農或者是怎麼樣的狀態我覺得能夠更細緻一點來處理好不好"},{"start":15087.581,"end":15109.207,"text":"會的 65歲以上就不需要保有一定要保有一分地的已經不孤立了所以這個部分我們已經注意所以我們會持續的精進而且把我們農業的資源真正的投入在我們的實際耕作者那接下來這邊的時候我想問一個部分因為你剛剛提到說有些光電業者他配合的狀態那我講到一個漁電共生的一個例子"},{"start":15109.947,"end":15119.592,"text":"因為餘電共生他們在電籌許可當中的時候會有一個需求還有養殖戶的同意書部長知道這個狀態嘛對不對我想知道養殖戶怎麼去做一個認定"},{"start":15121.345,"end":15139.752,"text":"我想第一個部分因為我們養殖有養殖登記所以這個部分其實光電現在的問題不在這裡現在問題就是說我本身是一個地主又養魚然後我租給光電業者的時候那光電業者說他來包養"},{"start":15140.772,"end":15168.073,"text":"那他來包養其實都是比較因為他不是專業的就變得應付式的所以我們現在修改的就是我們希望說引進專業的漁卿來這塊地做成豬然後在興建的過程怎麼規劃就參與這樣的話才能夠實際的達到你剛講這部分因為坦白說這種不同的樣態非常的多那因為養殖戶在電子的修改當中的時候會要有一個養殖戶同意書"},{"start":15168.994,"end":15186.11,"text":"坦白說這會碰到一個狀態是有些事實上是有養殖登記證的有些是沒有的所以說在這狀態的時候如果說沒有一個合法的養殖登記證的養殖戶的時候碰到這種狀態的時候很可能就會跟我們剛剛講到說在農保這邊也被剔除"},{"start":15189.212,"end":15212.571,"text":"那這個部分我希望說能夠處理得更細緻一點因為那所長這邊是好像不太理解這邏輯在哪裡我想這個部分我請部長這邊再稍微去做一個後續的去一個follow那我想要特別講一個狀態就是說對於這些愁色光電的業者的時候我們是不是可以在這樣子的漁電工生政策當中同時要求他們來切捷協助來輔導這些本來"},{"start":15215.393,"end":15238.473,"text":"不是一個合法養殖戶能夠變成合法化這個部分部長可以在這邊做一個要求我想這個部分我們一定會用更積極的方式去協助那我們會看到現在很多問題就是沒有實際養殖然後地主就是我們現在先把地主的問題解決了因為地主的部分我們能夠讓他確保有農保"},{"start":15239.393,"end":15259.811,"text":"那這樣的話他比較敢簽這個這個承受的一個證明啊以前是怕簽結簽了以後我就沒有地了沒有地的話就農保就會退掉所以我把農保資格維持以後他就不願意比較願意簽第二個就是除了養殖登記以外還有一個陸魚的申報也可以"},{"start":15260.972,"end":15283.217,"text":"然後如果是會員也可以所以我們有更多的管道是能夠讓他把它變成一個合法化的方式來處理部長因為這個問題坦白說現在漁業的問題是一件部分那綠能政策又是一件事情因為台灣坦白說又缺電所以如何怎麼樣能夠把這東西做好平衡我覺得很重要那我們希望能夠再協助輔導這些"},{"start":15286.438,"end":15293.864,"text":"漁業養殖戶的時候的時候呢然後也能夠讓整個光電的發展能夠比較好能夠讓整個產業能夠順利往前推動那最後部分我想說請那個部長這邊針對新竹南寮漁港淤積的問題因為之前有特別提到說要把頭前溪跟那個南寮漁港這個如何去解決這樣的一個淤沙問題的時候要做一個那個"},{"start":15312.7,"end":15336.81,"text":"我們今年大概有八千萬去處理這部分的一些實質是淤沙的產出今年有八千萬是不是後續還會處理那我在想說因為南苗漁港的淤沙跟整個頭前溪的一個流向有很大的問題還有東北季風所以我們希望能夠有效的來解決它而不是只是一個對"},{"start":15340.376,"end":15346.577,"text":"我們必須做水工模型才能夠長久是 OK那之前有講這個部分我不知道後續進度如何"},{"start":15347.875,"end":15374.867,"text":"你說明一下根委員報告目前就委託海大正在做評估當中那這一個計畫到明年會截止那整個期末報告出來的時候到時候可能也可以邀請委員一起來參與來了解這樣子OK 好 謝謝吳董難得漁港的魚殺問題請部長這邊特別的關注對不起委員因為你這張簡報我必須要再次的澄清就是清查農保老農被養套殺這是不對這是錯誤的訊息因為65歲以上"},{"start":15377.768,"end":15390.111,"text":"土地就不需要持有一定一分地的部分所以615這一項完全沒有沒有去處理這個農保的問題了所以絕對不是老農的養套謝謝部長因為這個問題其實我剛剛在過夜所以我沒有主動問可是謝謝你主動回應謝謝謝謝鄭正前委員那順便拜託鄭委員幫我"},{"start":15407.608,"end":15408.989,"text":"我們接下來請一下葉宇昱召委好 謝謝那是不是有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":15428.153,"end":15447.534,"text":"部長好部長我看到現在立法院有一個提案是由民眾黨黨團提出的他是針對全國農業金庫獨立董事的提名他們希望去做改變那我們也知道農業金庫他裡面有將近有7000億的存款"},{"start":15448.735,"end":15464.428,"text":"那所以由農業部指派專業的獨立董事來做好監理以及管理整個農業金庫的運作我想這件事很要緊但是民眾黨忽然提出說他們希望要改變農業金庫獨董的一個提名"},{"start":15466.918,"end":15486.8,"text":"這讓我很高興農委長請教一下部長你怎麼看待現在立法院有這樣的一個提案我跟委員報告就是農業金庫是整個我們農業信用部的上位的一個銀行那他肩負了非常多的重要的政策的推動的執行者包括我們所有的農業的專案貸款"},{"start":15488.802,"end":15517.471,"text":"這個部分還有銀行各地銀行的轉存款然後他去投資的部分所以相對的他是穩定台灣農業的金融非常重要的一個公司那他本身的董事裡面現在公股的部分有六席我們農業部主導的有六席民股的有四席那獨立董事五席可是相對的以他們的提案的理由是說農會有沒有希望有他的一個"},{"start":15518.251,"end":15544.671,"text":"固定的一個推薦那相對的現在目前15席董事裡面其實農會的代表已經有9席了啦其實有適當的代表權了可是非常重要的喔各位都知道農會本身它每幾年就會做改選它有一些不穩定性那如果農業金庫獨立董事用推選的方式不是由農業部推薦的方式的話很有可能經營權"},{"start":15546.933,"end":15562.911,"text":"就會被一些農會拿走那相對的菁英圈拿走其實對國家的農業的這個金融是一個災難所以你講的重點啦說重點是農業金庫它的持股我們農業部有持股當然各個農會也都有持股"},{"start":15563.411,"end":15584.084,"text":"但是重點在於說農會它是基層在基層的話它的一些專業判斷難免會有所偏頗所以我們比較需要農業部要做這個專業的然後做一個比較上位階的因為這是管理整個借款的農業金庫7000億的借款所以我覺得這件事非同小可知識體大"},{"start":15584.924,"end":15601.569,"text":"所以要好好去正視這個我想我們也會持續跟各個委員溝通因為農業金庫它不像一般的銀行它對穩定我們農業金融是有非常重要的很多人不了解以為說獨立董事因為照規定他也不需要就是有他的提名權"},{"start":15602.449,"end":15614.263,"text":"那我們也很願意接受人家的推薦我們一起來努力我想部長一旦農民或者是農企業一旦有需要的時候我想農業部都是很贊成利用農業金庫的這一些資金然後給他們借貸給他們讓他們去發展他們的農企業"},{"start":15617.406,"end":15644.068,"text":"我想這是農業金庫跟農業部共同的一個意旨啊我們有曾經說農民或農企要借款的時候我們很惡意的刁難我想應該也不會這樣嘛那如果在這個前提之下我們除了發展農業接下來要監管這些預算這方面現在也很危險對 所以相對農業金庫的經營權就非常重要啦你如果沒有這個經營權的話以後農業的金融的措施就如果不配合的時候"},{"start":15644.628,"end":15662.346,"text":"那所有的金融的所有的我們金融的一個支持給農民的這些支持完全就會被別人所掌控好那接下來我再問第二個議題這個議題一樣是就是民眾黨我不知道他為什麼一直要針對針對我們農業部來"},{"start":15665.199,"end":15682.104,"text":"他們現在說要剪裂農業部的特別收入基金就是你早上在報告的時候你說因為他們剪裂了這個特別基金那一旦我們的農業部的基金預算一旦被剪裂的話就沒有辦法動之第二預備金來做"},{"start":15683.704,"end":15708.176,"text":"接下來的一些 如果資金不足的時候有辦法動資所以你有講到說 啊 剛才天然災害啊 今年災害比較嚴重的時候有可能我們就沒有辦法動資預備金來協助農民度過天然災害我想這件事情有夠嚴重我們就要 今天要開始 我們就要開始小聲拜拜開始拜託眾行民 我們媽祖婆一定要台灣放掉巫孫"},{"start":15710.217,"end":15736.611,"text":"出現災害我預備金沒夠部長去年大概動用預備金協助農民大概花了多少錢我們平均每一年動用就是操織我想操織的部分平均大概30億到50億那天然災害我們去年操織多了就是40億那這40億就是由行政院來協助提供其中有一部分是用二倍金給我們"},{"start":15736.991,"end":15765.505,"text":"所以那一年如果知道像去年3個紅胎嘛3個紅胎所以就有40億嘛對不對那很明顯是不夠預算額不夠不夠需要用二倍金來協助對 二倍金或其他現在問題很大耶你說因為他簡略砍了九千萬九千萬雖然起來是砍不多但是他影響的結果就是預算法第22條第二項不得動之欲備金這樣要怎麼辦啦所以這個部分因為已經"},{"start":15766.526,"end":15767.298,"text":"已經成了"},{"start":15768.234,"end":15796.528,"text":"最後就是已經刪了嘛那現在唯一的就是說我們真的不夠的時候我們還是會向行政院爭取看除了第二預備金以外還有沒有其他的經費啦那經費要沒有其他的經費的時候就不能用預備金啦對其他經費不就要再用特別預算那有可能就是同意我們先借資啦就是用農債基金去借啦因為農民如果受損的話我想政府的承諾一定要做到這很嚴重欸政府的承諾不能跳票這很嚴重欸當然說嘛沒風災"},{"start":15798.169,"end":15812.426,"text":"阿沒有天然災害最好啦阿我先災害阿農業部當然要趕快幫助農民阿還有一個重點阿所以這個砍預算這個嚴重在這裡阿除了天然災害以後還有一個部長你早上你只是輕輕去點到可是換一天我就知道說喔這事情嚴重"},{"start":15815.129,"end":15837.474,"text":"對 還有一個很重要的產銷調節啦產銷調節也在基金在執行那每一年的產銷調節我們也是操之因為有時候那個產量太多的時候我們做一些調節的部分嘛所以這個部分都是跟農民的權益他的一個生活的支持跟他的所得都有相對的影響啊 產銷調節也要來一家 不能當預備金這樣拿起來就越嚴重啦產銷調節需要的是很多錢耶"},{"start":15844.087,"end":15859.789,"text":"所有的基金都用到啦肥料的補助啦我覺得現在很多人都輕描淡寫說農業部預算總額有增加所以砍預算沒有差農業部的預算總額增加是你們的法定支出增加吧"},{"start":15860.984,"end":15875.32,"text":"你們對農民的照顧啊包括說他們的一些保險啊農業災害的法定支出那部分是增加的啊農業部從農委會升格為農業部那時候所有的委員都希望說升格了以後"},{"start":15876.301,"end":15903.4,"text":"争取更多的机会为我们的农业的基础建设跟我们的福利做照顾所以我们在去年我们平均去年的部分我们增加了80亿那今年我们也预计增加了80亿结果被删掉剩下63亿这63亿是新的工作不是说我们都不做事就平工增加了以后给你删我们是增加很多新的工作而这个新的工作被删了20亿以后其实就变成"},{"start":15904.999,"end":15911.122,"text":"卡在那邊了所以部長我透過這個質詢我就是覺得說我們農業部一定為了農民這事情已經不是跟他有什麼問題這是為了農民農民是需要這條錢你現在人家拿這個高清高清滿英雄高的是後面的40億後面賭到財海沒辦法用到財海的第二億北京"},{"start":15928.174,"end":15942.887,"text":"所以這為了農民 我們這件事要公清澈 要謹慎辦法 好不好我看起來他們也不可能啊 現在看起來國民黨我們副議也沒過啊 希望重新討論 也沒辦法啊好不好 部長所以這是為了農民 這件事要謹慎辦法 好不好好 謝謝謝謝徹宇 趙偉"},{"start":15961.943,"end":15981.135,"text":"好 下一位請李坤城委員質詢謝謝主席我們請陳部長還有這個動保司的江市長好 金部長跟江市長部長好 市長好這個"},{"start":15987.43,"end":16008.445,"text":"因為現在這個很多的民眾都把寵物當成是家人那所以說在過世之後也會舉辦這個比較隆重的商禮那所以呢有這個寵物的生命紀念夜越來越多那這個你們在2023年的7月份有一個定定的非都市土地申請變更為"},{"start":16009.786,"end":16035.74,"text":"寵物生命紀念設施施用新辦事業計畫審查作為要點是名稱很長好請教一下這個從這個2023年7月到現在有幾件來申請了現在目前我所了解是73件來申請那其中有被駁回的大概是那個21件那退辦的話大概20件那通過的話大概有17件那其他15件在審查"},{"start":16037.741,"end":16061.878,"text":"所以實習建材合格通過,那這合格通過之後還要交回地方政府再做審查嗎?對不對?那目前現在全國合法的冰葬業者,寵物的生命經營業者有幾家?跟委員報告,目前完成地方政府核准的有兩家兩家,這兩家在哪裡?"},{"start":16063.839,"end":16089.836,"text":"目前的一個處理在桃園跟那個台中市好 桃園台中是因為他們有這個自治條例的關係嗎對 相關的自治條例好 那所以 我的問題來了第一個就是說有70幾件來做申請然後呢 因為農業部要先做審查再交回地方政府那光是農業部這邊兩年多來才核准了17件這速度上面會不會太慢"},{"start":16091.684,"end":16114.692,"text":"而且你們是用書面審查的方式嘛是不是你們大概平均一個案件審查大概需要多久時間這個我請我們的市長好請市長那個跟委員報告我們說到案子的話那個會相關單位一個案子大概要兩個月一個案子要兩個月準駁兩個月的時間然後就那個開會然後再做一個準駁對好那我的意思是在於說因為你們"},{"start":16116.453,"end":16137.167,"text":"這個有那個要點出來的然後各縣市政府也都知道嘛那為什麼不把這一個這個第一階段的審查就直接交由地方政府來做就好了因為我看你們這一個要點裡面啊你們有規範的說這一個比如說這個存放還有處理的設施然後呢接下來呢還有這個有關這個"},{"start":16139.549,"end":16165.852,"text":"要怎麼去做辦理都是由交由地方政府的不管是這個城鄉局啊 農業局啊 地政局 環保局 水域局等等這都是地方政府在做審查的嘛那我的意思是說那為什麼要跌床駕屋就是說你就直接交由地方政府按照你們的這一個作業要點來做這個審查就好了啊我想這個部分謝謝委員的關心那會後我想我會去評估說"},{"start":16167.648,"end":16185.758,"text":"是不是直接可以移到地方政府來審或者是在審查的時候是一個聯席會議的方式聯席會審的方式能夠縮短這樣的一個時間不會說做審問因為你們也是做書面審那你們審查的東西其實跟地方政府審查的東西其實是內容應該是大同小異吧對不對我想"},{"start":16187.186,"end":16211.46,"text":"農業部審查的是大的規範然後地方審查是根據它的地方自治的部分它的一個個別的規範大的規範你就按照你們這個作業要點來處理就好了因為我看到你們作業要點裡面很多地方當然有做規範那只要地方政府按照你們這個規範來做然後最後他們其實能不能成立也都是由地方政府我剛才講的那些相關的局處來做其實跟我們農業部也沒有關係所以我是覺得說"},{"start":16215.743,"end":16239.721,"text":"現在是有這個需求但是在時程上面其實是慢了很多那你農業部審一次然後核准之後再由地方政府再審一次然後再送給這個農業部時間花太久了我了解那個委員的關心點但是有一個重要中央審查的時候其實他雖然說書面可是他的著落點有沒有他跟周遭的這些東西都需要一些套圖跟一些確認"},{"start":16240.922,"end":16256.816,"text":"不過我想這個地方也可以做啊地方這個套圖跟那個因為主動結識在我們地方的農業地震都可以做啦沒有這個部分可能我想我們會依據委員的想法我們看看有沒有辦法簡化這個流程還有中央跟地方的"},{"start":16257.316,"end":16274.034,"text":"分工的部分也要做一個確認啦這個部分我想我們會來努力就是說就算地方沒有這個自治條例可是我們中央有這個要點按照這個要點來做就可以了嘛對不對我想我們朝這個方向看看簡化這樣的一個方式如果地方自治條例沒有出來的時候是不是可以繼續往下走啦"},{"start":16275.201,"end":16301.595,"text":"那我再問因為現在只有這個作業要點那可是也衍生很多的一些亂象那一些亂象就是說這個譬如說收費沒有統一的標準那如果業者如果惡性倒閉不知道怎麼去求償然後還有仲介業者洋裝是業者然後消費者也沒有辦法去做處理然後設置地點有可能不符合法規但是消費者也不知道然後寵物遺體處理方式也不一致林林總總的請問一下"},{"start":16302.696,"end":16307.983,"text":"這個是中央農業部來管理呢還是地方政府來做處理呢如果有這些爭議性的話"},{"start":16308.82,"end":16334.642,"text":"我想我們為了解決這個爭議性,我們會用定型化契約來做一個規範所以目前沒有這個定型化契約?現在目前沒有對阿,因為我是說,因為現在變成是你沒有中央一個就像你們講的一個定型化契約或是一個統一的法規然後變成說在地方政府遇到這些亂象的話變成說處理也不一致"},{"start":16335.463,"end":16344.362,"text":"那我是建議說就像部長講的就是說我們中央有一個契約讓地方的政府或是業者都能夠來遵循好不好我想我們會儘快"},{"start":16346.327,"end":16368.701,"text":"我可能的話我希望在三個月之內都能夠把定期文化契約公告讓業者或事主有所依循因為現在在處理這個可能都是口頭約口頭講一講那後來出問題以後你完全沒有合約規範的話也很難處罰所以我覺得定期文化契約應該要更快的去落實至少三個月內提出來好不好因為這個就是說有需求的"},{"start":16370.562,"end":16387.437,"text":"民眾越來越多然後業者也越來越多但是你沒有一個相關的規範要到地方去然後大家也不知道是怎麼去做處理我們盡快的來努力的做謝謝部長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席謝謝我們李昆城委員那就有請農業部就正視這個議題來 下一位請黃婕委員發言"},{"start":16401.889,"end":16403.712,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請部長好有請部長兩位好"},{"start":16412.113,"end":16432.644,"text":"好部長好我要來跟你請教一下這個比特犬的問題喔因為其實最近這個比特犬有一隻叫Lucky然後上了媒體大家非常關注那其實我知道這個比特犬現在全台灣光是你們登記的就已經有3974隻沒錯那其中最多登記的其實是在高雄"},{"start":16434.165,"end":16456.559,"text":"接下來要如何管制其實我真的非常的我覺得必須要有更多管制的措施啦那這次的案件看起來其實是這個事主沒有盡到他的責任嘛我不知道說部長有沒有了解到這個案件我想基本上齁因為我們如果是被列管的時候你的出門一定有相關的規範規範是在那邊那最重要的是事主沒有依照這個規範去執行"},{"start":16459.301,"end":16476.693,"text":"那問題就來了因為部長也知道說看起來是這個事主沒有因為他的他應盡的責任去執行可是光是媒體上披露的他攻擊路人的記錄就已經有四次然後在社區裡面甚至兩次讓他們社區的鄰居見血"},{"start":16477.674,"end":16501.971,"text":"那甚至這媒體上面披露就已經是11天內兩度跳車去咬人家也就是說光是媒體揭露的就這麼多那我不知道說為什麼會一再的縱容讓像這麼具攻擊性的犬隻然後已經是有非常多次不良記錄的甚至是就媒體的揭露來說連同一個社區他的鄰居都不敢讓小孩去社區的中庭因為那一隻"},{"start":16503.292,"end":16528.183,"text":"惡犬會在中庭去影響別人甚至是其他有養狗的鄰居也不敢把狗帶出來因為都怕被他攻擊那怎麼會屢次讓這樣的事情發生而沒有更好的機制像是在前面幾次發生的時候就沒入或者是其他更強制的方式去讓這個事主知道說不能一再的發生呢我想在從這個事件其實我們可以學到非常多的教訓就是說這些就是"},{"start":16531.721,"end":16549.024,"text":"被列管的這些犬吃那他可能因為咬傷人但是沒有通報沒有通報這個部分我們要去加強讓民眾可以了解如果這種被列管的這種惡犬的部分我們應該怎麼樣去通報第二個部分我覺得說"},{"start":16550.595,"end":16571.278,"text":"要即時的沒路 要落實這個即時的沒路 這個政策啦而不是由地方的這邊 因為透過很多關說他可能又可以繼續養所以這個部分我想我們後續會針對什麼條件之下要有一個很明確的強制沒路的部分會給一個比較明確的指引"},{"start":16572.233,"end":16591.421,"text":"好 謝謝部長其實你提了兩件非常重要的改善的機制第一個就是我想問的這個通報的機制是不是應該要建立是而不是讓每次都是我們一次一次的媒體上面又發現才知道說原來這隻狗的不良記錄已經這麼多了然後第二個是說不可以因為有人去講一講"},{"start":16592.543,"end":16609.393,"text":"然後就又放寬他繼續讓他在社區這樣子撒野是所以這兩件事情我是希望說接下來如何讓這個四組的責任教育更加強然後這個通報機制一定要建立然後是不是真的很明顯已經有攻擊性了那是不是及早的沒入"},{"start":16609.813,"end":16626.061,"text":"這三件事情我是希望接下來農業部可以跟地方的政府的動保處來做一個完整的機制的調整那我也要講說其實2022年已經公告3月之後就公告說比特犬是禁養的然後但是因為現在就是還是有這麼多隻是因為他們已經養了嘛"},{"start":16627.242,"end":16641.875,"text":"在2020年已經養了然後高雄就有500多隻所以接下來這總共近4000隻全台灣近4000隻的比特犬到底要怎麼去做更加強不要再發生這樣子的事件這個是非常重要的"},{"start":16643.195,"end":16659.922,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒那後續我們會針對市主針對一般的利害關係人還有縣市政府的動保機關去做更加強的宣導跟他的一個預防作為那必要的指引我想我們中央農業部一定會有一個明確的指引下去"},{"start":16660.182,"end":16686.334,"text":"好好謝謝部長承諾那最後一點小提醒啦因為就我所知有一些地方政府啊他不希望隨便的沒入犬隻當然不是隨便我覺得已經是具攻擊性的犬隻然後再加上他這一隻狗本身就已經是他也有過去不良的攻擊性的行為了那很多地方政府說他們不敢沒入的原因是因為收容不足收容量能的問題不能變成是他們不敢沒入的原因是"},{"start":16687.054,"end":16713.888,"text":"所以這件事情如何去協助地方政府來解決我覺得也是非常重要的對 這個議題其實也凸顯了就是寵物的分級分類的管理的重要性所以我想後續我們會持續在努力然後針對收容的部分其實問題更大因為我們的收容量能不夠那我們怎麼樣把收容裡面的犬隻做一些更優化的一個措施我想我們會來努力好 謝謝部長好 再拜託謝謝"},{"start":16716.237,"end":16722.481,"text":"好謝謝 謝謝黃婕委員那下一位請徐欣寅委員質詢謝謝主席 本席請農業部部長陳部長好有請部長委員好"},{"start":16744.139,"end":16763.23,"text":"部長好 辛苦了從早到中午過後還沒用餐本席在這裡要借用短短的時間要反映一些基層農民的一些反應的問題首先第一個就是我們在疫情期間肥料的購買"},{"start":16765.253,"end":16792.45,"text":"本来是没有实名制好像那时候疫情期间为了避免囤积涨价开始实施实名制让民众觉得非常的不方便非常的繁琐特别是农民对于登录系统还有这种数位工具或者是地处偏远地带的农民他们觉得很困难而且没有弹性所以是不是可以这个"},{"start":16793.391,"end":16801.724,"text":"看是有更彈性的政策或者是可以廢掉呢讓恢復原來的自由購買針對這個部長您看怎麼樣我先報告廢掉的實名是其實"},{"start":16807.648,"end":16830.248,"text":"有兩個政策目標第一個目標你就針對我的問題好了因為我只有4分鐘好 實名制本身其實它並沒有造成非常大的困擾因為它只要第一次去登記以後它去買的話只要報電話號碼可是它不一定都跟這家它換到另外一家的時候我們現在就是目前有連通嗎我們很多網路網路後面去連線所以它只要登記一次到其他地方"},{"start":16830.988,"end":16843.103,"text":"就可以報電話號碼就可以來處理了所以疫情過完不可能再恢復到疫情前那樣對因為肥料本身我們有很多的補助而且我們透過實名制可以指導他正確的用肥啦"},{"start":16844.177,"end":16861.525,"text":"對 但是你就講到很多的補助他們就講說農業部官員都坐在辦公室搞不清楚第一線農民的情況因為他們的肥料的使用會根據他們種植作物有所不同所以不會是很死板的"},{"start":16862.145,"end":16886.243,"text":"所以他们也觉得你们补助也是缺乏弹性所以是不是这个部分可以研拟一下好不好我反映到这剩下如果有要回应再看用书面因为我必须要反映一下包括我们还有就是说农民的贷款你有你百大青农跟这个一般青壮农这个贷款的"},{"start":16887.384,"end":16901.442,"text":"它的優惠不太一樣那第一個他們是說因為這貸款嘛你不要獨厚百大親農是不是對農民你可以有一致就像我們一般人貸款我是"},{"start":16904.706,"end":16924.34,"text":"這個叫做什麼被頒獎的那個叫什麼優秀青年跟我一般年輕人我去銀行貸款應該一樣嘛所以這一塊看可不可以研擬一下這個農民有很多的反應這第一個第二個就是說百大青農的評選標準有沒有"},{"start":16926.562,"end":16945.721,"text":"在比較一致公平一點的因為基層農民會覺得說好像百大青農特別重視一些經營能力那特別在創新加值什麼財務管理品牌建立方面那看看有而且他說這種情況呢"},{"start":16946.522,"end":16967.359,"text":"在較少人競爭的領域或地區比較有機會獲選那可能我們地區的農民就覺得說你看看這個評選的標準有沒有可能也可以再更公平一點這第一個第二個是拉回到剛剛講的就是那個貸款那如果說有一些青壯農他有"},{"start":16968.44,"end":16983.537,"text":"獨特的農業貢獻 譬如他推動友善耕作支持地方農村活化 參與合作農業等等他雖然沒有辦法獲選百大青榮可是他的貸款你可以給他更多更優惠這有沒有可能朝這個方向 部長"},{"start":16984.417,"end":17012.98,"text":"我想第一個要說明的就是我們現在貸款千年代改200萬五年免息嘛那百搭輕農他是加上去而不是說一般輕農減下來這第一個概念第二個就是您剛才講的部分那他的意思就希望說能夠更優惠一點所以我剛才說的就是他是有一個誘因那你剛才講除了百搭輕農有沒有一些配合政策而且做得不錯的我們給他機動的一個調整那這個我們會來研議因為畢竟他的利息是比較低的啦"},{"start":17014.861,"end":17031.672,"text":"那最後就是針對漁業養殖設施的管理是這個不得設置床鋪那因為在食物上我們太多的很多養殖業者他們是說因為他們非常辛苦長時間要守在漁場"},{"start":17032.953,"end":17051.318,"text":"那這個有誰夏天趕不住在漁場的他們一定不敢嘛一定會住在那稍有不慎損失慘重所以是不是可以考量養殖業者的特殊性能夠允許養殖設施管理室設置必要的休息設施可以嗎"},{"start":17052.378,"end":17080.425,"text":"我覺得委員所關心的從大邏輯上是第一線第一線他們的聲音大邏輯我認同但是我必須考量到有一些就是有很多設施不管是農業的話你只要讓它有休息室那個休息室就越長越大這會變家對不對對 就會變家了那你去看嘛你看怎麼樣可以不要讓它變成那種畸形的變成家必要的休息我覺得是可以處理的"},{"start":17080.925,"end":17107.308,"text":"但是我想我們會來研議看看因為我們有時候利益良好可是相對來就有我了解我理解我也認同你們好不好所以我們來看用什麼方式來處理因為他們要的就真的是一個休息好不好我知道好謝謝好謝謝許新穎委員謝謝下一位請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在下一位請張雅玲委員"},{"start":17120.404,"end":17123.252,"text":"謝謝 我們有請民運部部長好 有請部長"},{"start":17131.432,"end":17152.691,"text":"我想因為去年年底我們公布了一個955的一個禁養關於異種的一個禁養的一個名單所以引發了非常非常多的抗議然後非常多的輿論的批評那所以在1月15號的時候當時我有協調了農業部來跟事主團體一起來做了一個討論釐清這些爭議但我想在整個過程之中其實都是我們沒有跟民眾"},{"start":17153.892,"end":17170.01,"text":"相關利益團體做一些清楚的溝通所以我覺得是前期上面我們做得不夠好那這一點部長您認同嗎我想我非常認同就是說當我們一個政策下去特別有不同的利害關係的時候我們更應該把一些"},{"start":17170.891,"end":17198.808,"text":"前世的相關的這些政策要做一個充分的溝通而不是讓外界語言突然蹦出來一個這個議題讓他們措手不及所以針對這個部分我想我們內部的這些標準作業程序我們也再做一個調整好 謝謝因為上個禮拜其實有討論一個叫做分級分類的一個管理那當時其實當動保跟東農院部的動保處動保司發通知給我們民間團體的時候他們其實在上禮拜一的時候希望可以增加民間的專家學者"},{"start":17200.009,"end":17216.252,"text":"可是到禮拜一的時候給喔一直告訴我們說禮拜四的會議可是禮拜一給就說作業不及我想我們這邊其實也是非常希望的可以讓民間更多的參與讓大家可以來說論意見那下次這樣子的情形是不是可以不要再有了我覺得下次絕對不會發生現在的那些"},{"start":17217.813,"end":17236.884,"text":"那些邀請也好或是什麼也好其實電子郵件一下子就可以確認了嘛不需要走這個流程那有一些是除了閉門會議閉門會議的委員不能臨時外加以外那其他的只要是溝通的邀請專家的部分我已經跟他們講就是說希望說"},{"start":17237.944,"end":17250.418,"text":"就算你開會的當天有人願意來提出他的想法我們都應該很開心的接受好 謝謝因為我一直想說禮拜一通知到底為什麼禮拜四還是沒有這樣的時間會作業不緊那不過也非常謝謝部長的積極來處理那因為接下來我們還要來討論就是有關於這些風險評估的一個標準"},{"start":17258.386,"end":17277.641,"text":"但是因為這裡面會有一些非常主觀的認定就是動物福利跟公共安全所以我想要了解針對這個部分我們有沒有一個相關的時程如何來跟民間團體跟利益團體來做一些溝通呢我們目前有相關的時程嗎我想我們並沒有很明確的什麼時候要公告這個禁止動物禁止飼養的但是風險的管理"},{"start":17280.523,"end":17305.976,"text":"我有跟我們動保師談過希望他們有一個就是第一階段就是要將我們本身對於公共安全對於社會福利還有對於可能逃逸所造成的傷害的部分內部要先有一個有一個類似的一個指引完了以後才去做對外的溝通而不是自己都沒有想法拋出來直接去去廣結意見那樣就會開花很多議題就會開花所以這個部分"},{"start":17307.677,"end":17321.878,"text":"我希望說他們能夠盡快的提出來然後再把這個時程再提供給委員好 我希望我們可以在一個月以內再召開下一次的會議好不好那這個相關的時程是不是可以在一個禮拜左右送給我們辦公室呢一個禮拜可以嗎 相關的時程"},{"start":17322.719,"end":17351.823,"text":"好 謝謝那再來還是要回到比特犬的這個問題就是說比特犬剛剛其實黃姐委員也有問的那我想針對一個問題來討論就是說根據動保法32條其實當如果這個動物無故侵害他人之生命或身體製造成他人生命或身體傷害之動物就可以得進行沒入嘛32條是這樣規定可是在這個案例裡面其實是間隔了11天那我不曉得部長您對於這樣子的一個處置您的看法是什麼"},{"start":17352.669,"end":17377.798,"text":"我個人認為就是當然事主跟狗不管他是不是攻擊犬他有他的一個依賴感就是所以我覺得我個人可以接受的是如果出犯你可以類似留校查看第二次的話一定要強制沒入因為第二次表示你有可能再犯了但是因為現在法規寫一個德制那個德制就完全操縱在"},{"start":17378.888,"end":17396.209,"text":"一個行政的裁量那行政裁量萬一有人關說的時候那就可能就不處理了但是我覺得要有更明確的中央的指引我覺得這個部分我們農業部會來做我想再請教一個問題就是說每一個縣市政府的這個裁量標準你覺得現在是一致的嗎"},{"start":17397.01,"end":17425.761,"text":"我想可能因為其實我們也有看到一些案例嘛它有的不是一次兩次有到三次四次它都還沒有沒落嘛那剛剛當然有收容的問題可是我覺得這個財量標準應該有必要找地方縣市政府一起來討論一個一致性因為應該不會有台北市的命比較貴重然後哪個地方命比較賤吧應該沒有吧 對不對所以我們應該要用一視同仁的標準來去確認這件事情所以是不是可以召開相關的會議來把我們各縣市的財量標準拉起呢"},{"start":17426.261,"end":17443.433,"text":"我覺得這個我們會立即去做去召開各縣市政府針對這個構建系統的權得目錄這件事情的一個指標跟標準然後如果大家有共識的話我們農業部就會發函到各縣市有一個相關的一個參考的指引這樣子"},{"start":17444.276,"end":17471.862,"text":"我想 我覺得可能也要來瞭解一下地方縣市他們現在在組織的想法是什麼啦我覺得可能先大家一起來討論之後我們來訂出一個財洋標準我覺得那才是實務上可行的啦不過我還是要再更正一點提醒一點就是說不是只有攻擊性的不是只有比特犬喔因為現在咬傷的狗咬傷人的狗並不是只有比特犬像昨天也是有類似的新聞所以我們應該是針對於狗狗的某種行為的狀況之下我們的一個財洋標準要拉起謝謝"},{"start":17479.3,"end":17493.901,"text":"好謝謝張雅玲委員那下一位請陳冠廷委員發言你好我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":17503.477,"end":17507.567,"text":"部長好部長今年的年初我們嘉義縣有發生這個馬鈴薯的受災的狀況"},{"start":17511.721,"end":17533.589,"text":"因為今年底的颱風然後還有今年初的連續降雨導致馬鈴薯出現裂窗腐爛那當然新港鄉是主要的受災地區還有包含溪口等地那新港鄉的種植面積大概是500多公頃那現在是認為說損害率未達20%所以沒有辦法啟動災害的"},{"start":17537.492,"end":17562.741,"text":"救助可是很多鄉親是在反映他說單一作物的種植面積常常達不到救助的門檻所以有一些寧願在風土氣候土壤沒有那麼適合的地方但還是想要種少量的其他作物讓這個作物有點零碎化的狀況出現那沒有辦法發揮出最大的效益經濟效益就沒有辦法出來所以我今天看到部長您的業務報告有提到要徵休"},{"start":17564.061,"end":17580.988,"text":"農業天然災害的救助是用天氣參數這個東西那這個機制加起來之後如果滿足我們天氣的參數規定是不是就可以加速這個啟動救助或者是免除限勘我想確認一下這一個機制能夠讓損害力的認定的門檻放寬嗎"},{"start":17584.138,"end":17602.011,"text":"我們現在就是積極啟動那個天氣參數嘛那天氣參數有兩類喔一類是那個災害的天氣參數那災害的天氣參數能夠加速公告另外一個是災損的天氣參數那災損的天氣參數你如果達到的話就是不用去現勘"},{"start":17604.233,"end":17619.748,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們會積極來處理那委員所關心的就是說當一個地區500公頃500公頃以下大概5%500公頃以上是25公頃那這個部分我已經請同仁再去做一些更精細的規劃"},{"start":17621.229,"end":17641.07,"text":"一部分不要不一定要用鄉鎮或是縣市的因為他用產區的概念也許隔壁的產區他這個縣市可能只有3公頃可是隔壁的產區有沒有就鄰近的他是屬於其他鄉鎮的我們是不是有機會把他併成一個產區的概念來處理我想我們有很多的方法是可以做調整"},{"start":17641.65,"end":17668.358,"text":"但是這個部分可能容許我們同仁花一點時間我想我們朝著就是簡化的方式讓農民受災的農民得到真正的救助的方式我們來做一個逐步的來調整謝謝部長我剛剛聽到產區來去做調整這個是一個非常正面的回覆那我們是予以肯定因為我們特別講天氣參數的原因是因為現在很多都要我們的稍微年長的農民使用APP來去做一個這個通報"},{"start":17670.279,"end":17691.342,"text":"但是這些年長農民可能可以電話來通知公所但是叫他們使用APP真的是有一定的困難所以我們肯定如果未來這個把天氣參數加進去的話那自動來去做一個處置的話那這是一個正面的開示那第二個部分就是你剛剛提到的用產區因為我們從新港到溪口到大連"},{"start":17691.943,"end":17712.319,"text":"其實基本上他們都可以算是一個產區那我們也是希望說能夠從優來去協助我們這些農民因為他們儘管是很希望我們實際上我們都有去走前天才剛去可是有的時候為了要搶救搶收這個作物等於說這些我們的相關部門來的時候他已經基本上已經被收完所以說"},{"start":17712.799,"end":17734.951,"text":"比較困難啦 所以說今天不斷有說到我們用這個不管是用天氣參數還是用產區這一個方面我們是給予大大的肯定啦我們是希望說未來可以來去往這個部分做因為我們不希望說我們農民把它降低單一作物的比例這對我們的農業經濟來講也是一個損耗啦那再來就是要請教這個部長關於電價調漲補助的部分"},{"start":17738.473,"end":17756.366,"text":"最近我們嘉義縣的火龍果產區但其實也不是火龍果產區而已吼那包含去木啊吼還有這個水質養殖的漁業等等都有反映說他們很擔心電價調漲之後吼那些需要夜間照明促進開花結果的這些作物會受到影響那我之前也有跟經濟部長"},{"start":17757.327,"end":17761.03,"text":"有跟他這個質詢的時候有請教他說會跟農業部來討論說怎麼樣來去做一些補貼的方式來去輔助我們滿足我們農民的需求"},{"start":17769.451,"end":17788.37,"text":"那當然我們知道說在野黨他現在把這個要撥給台電的1000億的這個刪除後看起來電省會會還是會提高電價那這個部分部長我們該怎麼處理有沒有考慮來去追加我們的相關的這個預算來去吸收漲價差額讓我們的農民能夠安心的來去生產"},{"start":17789.031,"end":17805.603,"text":"我跟委員報告就是針對用電的優惠跟用電的補貼來協助減低農民的負擔這個政策永遠都在而且會持續去做那早期是由台電吸收那後來是由我們的主管機關要編列所以去年那一波"},{"start":17806.563,"end":17826.862,"text":"內部的調升我們就編了大概24億多來協助農民去讓農民的電費實際上不漲價差有補貼優惠也繼續存在那這一次的一個電價是不是會調整我不知道但是如果有調整的時候我們還是秉持同樣的一個政策"},{"start":17827.362,"end":17851.959,"text":"我們會積極的向行政院去爭取額外的經費來協助農民來減低他的一個負擔謝謝部長 朝這個方向來去努力讓我們的農民能夠安心因為賴總統也有說均衡台灣那農民是我們均衡台灣的一個很重要的里程碑那也希望部長能夠再多加關心這一個部分所有的政策都是農漁民優先好 政策是農漁民優先感謝 好 謝謝"},{"start":17856.923,"end":17876.338,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢那我們下一位請賴慧元委員賴慧元委員賴慧元委員不在請羅明才委員羅明才委員羅明才委員不在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在請陳培鈺委員陳培鈺委員陳培鈺委員不在"},{"start":17877.459,"end":17900.962,"text":"現在登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員完美會林德福所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢項和為其答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會好 本日所列議程處理完畢謝謝大家 辛苦現在休息"}]}},{"id":"16546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16546","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc5d3f5f5d43d00e8421a0c6ed6363745a7692a6bdb7e2f09fce64bf7e1ad1f3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-26T08:30:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-26T11:42:00+08:00","duration":11462,"影片長度":"03:11:02","委員發言時間":"08:30:58 - 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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況並備質詢本次會議有委員黃國昌等17人提出質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1808.657,"end":1833.446,"text":"因為人數在場不足三人所以我們稍後確認我們接著再介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員首先介紹道場委員 羅志強委員接著我們介紹應邀列席官員司法院副秘書長 王梅英副秘書長法務部政次 徐向政次 你好還有嗎"},{"start":1836.902,"end":1860.252,"text":"齊委及介紹的列席代表請參議院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議程討論事項排定並案審查司法院行政院函請審議刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等事案先進行提案說明及報告提案說明發言時間三分鐘請提案人羅志強委員進行提案說明"},{"start":1869.636,"end":1896.242,"text":"主席我們所有列席的官員近年來三級及新興混合毒品私用的案件大幅增加但現行的法律跟執法工具對於毒價的查緝仍然有重大的缺漏那影響執法成效跟公共安全所以因此為了要遏止毒價在符合憲法一旨條件之下所以我們希望能夠儘速推動這個刑事訴訟法205條之二的修法"},{"start":1898.925,"end":1927.526,"text":"那目的就是要完備第一線警務人員查驗毒價跟毒品私用的法源依據那首先就是說在憲法判決對於現行採尿機制的影響那根據大法官4至111年憲判制第16號的解釋現行的刑事訴訟法205條之二雖然規定授權執法人員對於犯罪嫌疑人採尿液取證"},{"start":1928.487,"end":1948.383,"text":"但此規定違反憲法正當法律程序原則那侵害人民資訊飲食權身體權所以被認定違憲因此目前執法人員在執法過程當中如果駕駛人拒絕提供尿液將無法以獨駕罪來移送它也導致法律實務上出現了重大的漏洞"},{"start":1949.224,"end":1974.493,"text":"那2023年就曾發生過這個有男子車禍昏迷那醫院警方從醫院的產料發現有安非他命的陽性反應那雖然向檢察官來取得鑑定許可但法院還是認為說他不是經過拘捕的嫌疑人或毒品人口那這個做法他認為說是這個排除他的一個證據力"},{"start":1976.033,"end":1996.832,"text":"那因此這些種種的一些因素都造成說我們今天發現警方我們在查緝所謂的毒品的時候尤其在查驗毒價的時候會有很多機制漏洞所以我們希望就針對這個問題今天我們的修法能夠把所有的狀況一併的來去思考"},{"start":1997.489,"end":2025.364,"text":"因為現在的那個販毒的問題毒品的問題 氾濫的問題真的是已經嚴重的衝擊我們社會的安全那尤其很多新興毒品它的那個影響甚至直接衝擊到用路安全那毒價的問題越來越嚴重所以今天我們有一些提案就希望大家我們可以一起來想辦法找出一個解決的方法能夠完善我們的一個法規讓我們第一線執法人員可以來守護我們這個"},{"start":2026.485,"end":2049.305,"text":"社會的安全跟秩序 以上 謝謝我們接著介紹道場委員 黃國昌委員羅委員 不好意思 稍微等一下請問各位 我們先確定議事錄請問各位 就上次的會議事錄 有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話 上次會議"},{"start":2051.874,"end":2071.063,"text":"那我們再介紹王益川委員那上次的會議事錄確定好那我們接著我們接續請機關代表報告那發言時間5分鐘我們先請世保院王副秘書長報告"},{"start":2083.286,"end":2110.845,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安那今天貴院司法及法治委員會的全體委員會議呢並按審查司法院行政院含情審議的還有委員羅志強委員莊瑞雄委員林楚英等人所提的這個刑事訴訟法205條之二的這個修正案那本院那個奉邀前來列席報告主要如書面進行指教那以下補充幾點"},{"start":2112.226,"end":2133.983,"text":"首先就是說那個司法警察他所為的這個產料處分呢他性質上是屬於身體檢查的一個干預處分那這個涉及了資訊隱私權還有身體自主權不受侵害的基本權那這個必須呢是符合正當的法律程序那現行的刑事訴訟法205條之二規定呢他"},{"start":2137.686,"end":2154.165,"text":"是規定說司法警察他因為蒐集證據的那個必要那對於這個拘提跟逮捕到的這個犯嫌呢可以直接違反他的意思直接採尿那以上的這個規定呢依這個憲法法庭111年憲判16"},{"start":2157.128,"end":2176.938,"text":"的判決明白的宣示就是這樣子的那個規定呢他是不符合憲法的正當法律程序這個抵觸那個憲法的意旨因此呢司法院就因應了這個判決召開了多次那個諮詢會那個提出了提出了"},{"start":2177.998,"end":2196.661,"text":"在今天审议这一个司法院的那个版本那主要的呢有三点第一个呢就是修正205条之二呢对于非侵入方式的这个材料呢主要是采取了层级化的法律保留还有令状原则"},{"start":2198.362,"end":2223.928,"text":"對於這個司法警察那個採尿呢規定事先要報請檢察官許可那如果說有急迫的那個情況呢他可以直接的非侵入方式的那個採尿那事後在採尿之後的24小時報請檢察官許可那檢察官如果認為不准許的話就要在三天之內來撤銷之這第一點"},{"start":2224.708,"end":2249.984,"text":"那第二點呢 增訂了205條之三呢有關於檢察官呢 他這個許可書的記載那許可書的這個記載呢 反面的也就是說就規範了司法警察他要報請檢察官許可的那個內容那另外呢 還規定了就是說這個執行的時候呢必須將這個許可書送交執行機關跟受採取人"},{"start":2250.945,"end":2260.752,"text":"那第三點呢就是規範了在205條之四呢規範了那個司法警察他如果進行採尿的時候的一個事後救濟"},{"start":2264.008,"end":2280.54,"text":"司法警察如果是依205條之二第二項的後段進行採尿處分的時候那受處分人就可以向該管的法院申請撤銷時間是從採尿之後的十天來申請"},{"start":2281.946,"end":2308.729,"text":"那相關的這些救濟程序是準用抗告編的那個規定那這以上是主要規定那另外有一點說明就是說原來我們提的這個草案呢有增訂第70條之一的這一個植物期間回復原狀的規定那這個條文呢已經在113年7月31號修正公佈生效了所以也沒有必要再那個增訂"},{"start":2309.71,"end":2334.816,"text":"那以上呢 就是會嫌行政院的過程中呢對於這個205條之二呢 兩院都有那個達成的那個共識那205條之三和之四呢 就只有一小部分有不同那個意見好 那以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝副秘書長 那接下來我們請法務部徐次長報告"},{"start":2346.98,"end":2364.916,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會代表本部列席報告並被質詢那報告如下敬請指教第一有關司法院行政院函請審議刑事作法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":2365.931,"end":2392.947,"text":"第一 有關司法院版草案第70條之一現行法已有規定 無需鎮定剛才副秘書長也有特別報告到這一點第二 有關草案第205條之二竟表同意第三 有關司法院版草案第205條之三建議採行政院版草案因為 瓜福音本法416條有關准看告知救濟期間"},{"start":2394.683,"end":2413.149,"text":"並非以送交後起算那司法院版的草案呢無意起算就計期間官府二本條所規定是許可書跟本法204條之一的許可書同樣是屬於鑒定許可書內容跟執行方式呢應具一致性"},{"start":2413.709,"end":2443.013,"text":"避免實務運作產生混淆跟困難自執行錯誤而產生證據能力的爭議那關五三行政院版草案無礙於受處分人救濟權之行使第四有關於司法院版草案第205條之四不得抗告是屬於重要事項並參酌本法245條之一之規定的體例建議採行政院版草案就是單列不得抗告"},{"start":2446.874,"end":2449.385,"text":"抱歉那個好那"},{"start":2453.658,"end":2474.263,"text":"第二 有關於委員羅志強等17人擬具刑事訴訟法第205條之二條文修正草案案一 草案第一項尿液以外檢體之採證客觀上是不存在於侵入性採取之方式明定以非侵入性方式採取 請再審酌"},{"start":2476.724,"end":2497.111,"text":"第二 草案第二項之體例將造成檢察官核發鑑定許可書後是否可自為撤銷得救濟之課題是否包含經檢察官事前核發的鑑定許可書等適用上的遺例進而跟本法第416條產生漢格 見請在座"},{"start":2500.512,"end":2523.307,"text":"第三 草案對於鑑定許可書應記載之事項及執行方式、救濟等未有相關配套規範 見請審酌第三 有關於委員莊瑞雄等18人拟據刑事訴訟法第205條之二、205條之三、205條之四條文修正草案案"},{"start":2523.956,"end":2537.722,"text":"第一草案第205條之二對於採證發動要件呢就系基於有相當理由有客觀事實或何者呢而逐認為採取尿液得作為犯罪證據未予規範進行著參第二"},{"start":2541.485,"end":2563.246,"text":"草案205條之三 競表同意草案205條之四 得否抗告呢 攸關重要事項予以明定 見請在座好 第四 有關於委員林楚英等17人擬拒刑事訴訟法第205條之二條文修正草案案有關 第一 有關於尿液之採取要件"},{"start":2563.746,"end":2584.179,"text":"建行法律程序均有別於該條第一項其他檢體體力上建議將尿液採取的依據、藥件、程序等完整規範於同一項建請再酌第二草案對於鑑定許可書應記載四項執行方式、救濟等未有相關配套的規範建請審酌"},{"start":2586.758,"end":2613.31,"text":"最後本部再次對大院費薪修法表示敬佩之意以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝各位好謝謝次長好那另外內政部警政署有提出書面報告那請問警政署有無口頭報告沒有好謝謝好那機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2617.057,"end":2634.132,"text":"提案說明及機關報告已經進行完畢現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2641.76,"end":2669.665,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請司法院副秘書長 法務部政務次長好 麻煩副秘 麻煩次長兩位好 上一次啊 朱國榮啊這種有錢有勢的人啊 棄保潛逃整個社會啊 非常憤怒那時候我們的司法院啊 跟法務部啊 大家都在裝忙所以啊 開會"},{"start":2671.443,"end":2695.651,"text":"討論啊 精進防逃措施司法院發了新聞稿 開了會最高檢察署發了新聞稿說要防逃 說絕對不可以 再讓他們跑要提升科技監控使用的效能這個是之前在2023年的時候啊 發生的事情結果咧結果咧"},{"start":2698.821,"end":2713.388,"text":"結果跑了一個諸葛隆以後從司法院到法務部全部的人都在裝忙要開會精進沒想到我們的綠色權貴我們的洗錢大亨關係非常的好從一開始的時候幫保和會這種暴力黑幫在辦特見讓老大"},{"start":2726.246,"end":2753.163,"text":"去看小弟啊付安家費一通電話就搞定腐敗的不得了我一路追下來結果這個人啊厲害的地方還不僅於此啊交保的時候是民進黨的議員去幫忙辦交保審判的時候是民進黨的立委幫他推動修法想要脫罪啊這些全部都是客觀事實全部都是客觀事實"},{"start":2754.551,"end":2781.749,"text":"我盯這個案子 盯了好幾年我盯了好幾年我本來以為啊 朱國隆跑了以後不會離譜到連中文字都放掉吧結果呢 好不容易等到三審定讞判決確定合計三十年五個月 三十年了三十年的有期徒刑啊最高法院沒有定執行刑啊 所以要給檢察官定我後來恍然大悟啊"},{"start":2782.834,"end":2806.286,"text":"為什麼會沒有定執行刑不需要定執行刑不需要定執行刑為什麼不需要定執行刑根本沒打算執行我上一次正在這邊執行的時候在那邊站的是法務部部長我還問到中文字的案子結果離譜成什麼樣子棄保潛逃了"},{"start":2809.318,"end":2827.089,"text":"那時候我看到這個新聞我不敢自信啊因為諸葛龍案以後第一個被電子監控的就是中文字啊結果竟然跑了我在想是他破壞電子監控設備嗎我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝結果"},{"start":2829.569,"end":2854.979,"text":"結果原來是高院說增加保證金2000萬就好了電子監控不用再搞下去了第一個問請教司法院之前我一直在追法學資料檢索系統判決裁定要完整公開請問在2024年10月的時候增加交保金額的裁定就關鍵嘛增加交保金額不用電子監控這個裁定為什麼不公開為什麼隱匿不公開"},{"start":2863.53,"end":2885.558,"text":"丟臉嗎丟臉嗎要迴避公眾監督嗎來請司法院副秘書長看啊這個是我今天早上來質詢以前我在check我找這個裁定找半天啊不敢讓社會大眾知道啊只有提高交保金啊不用電子監控啊去年我們在質詢司法院的時候信誓旦旦啊"},{"start":2886.488,"end":2893.831,"text":"說沒有現在的判決裁定啊全部公開沒有隱匿了來先說明一下去年10月的這個裁定到哪裡去了報告委員這個裁定依法是應該要公開的那為什麼沒公開剛好就這麼剛好你有沒有看到我整理出來的東西啊是這直接截圖我沒剪貼啊裁定到哪裡去了"},{"start":2916.914,"end":2943.386,"text":"事情大調了還是一開始法官就心虛連裁定都不敢公開可以腐敗成這個樣子喔回去三天之內把裁定公開上網可不可以可以太離譜了啦就剛好是中文字就剛好是不用電子假聊的裁定連公開都沒有公開"},{"start":2944.844,"end":2973.94,"text":"更離譜的是什麼結果事情發生了以後司法院跟法務部啊繼續裝忙從朱國隆開始就在裝忙到現在還在裝忙來我先先問清楚喔當初朱國隆當初中文字要不要電子監控的時候來請教一下法務部高檢署到底有沒有明確的表示應該要繼續施以電子設備監控有還是沒有有"},{"start":2974.605,"end":3001.21,"text":"有嘛來再請司法院司法院為什麼你們發的新聞稿是檢察官沒意見誰在說謊誰在說謊現在法務部喔說高檢署說喔有要求要繼續電子監控喔但是我們從高等法院這邊所看到的聲明說檢察官沒意見誰在說謊連我們的司法機關都可以公開說謊喔誰在說謊"},{"start":3004.171,"end":3014.917,"text":"說清楚 請司法院誰在說謊 請司法院不敢講話 誰在說謊主席時間暫停啦我問了一個具體的問題沒有回答問題 在浪費時間想要用拖的喔"},{"start":3030.595,"end":3035.817,"text":"確認什麼啊 這問題我發文問多久啦我發文問多久啦可以了嗎不知道今天來要面對這個問題嗎誰說謊那可以回答了嗎 可以回答我們時間就繼續誰說謊"},{"start":3057.529,"end":3081.544,"text":"為什麼高院跟社會大眾講說檢察官沒意見誰說謊黃委員我們先要繼續嗎我等他回答因為立委的詢問現在大家可能看了還以為畫面在靜止因為如果說不知道那你要必須回答不知道而不是說沒有回答麻煩你們"},{"start":3083.537,"end":3098.27,"text":"這個部分據高院的那個回覆是說他們在詢問那個檢察署的時候那個高檢是回覆說那個沒有意見對啊所以嘛現在法務部他不就打臉了所以我現在要你們兩邊對清楚啊現在誰說謊請問誰說謊"},{"start":3107.759,"end":3131.988,"text":"我想跟委員報告齁這個在10月9號高院公訴檢察官力挺的時候已經很明確記載我這樣講好了啦一個禮拜之內請法務部跟司法院各自提出你們的證據可以嗎可以兩邊都可以嗎可以一個禮拜之內提出證據看誰在說謊這件事情一定要追究責任到底來"},{"start":3133.795,"end":3161.819,"text":"結果這個傢伙很扯給他解除電子監控整個社會大眾講說現在是對還是不對這個人之前已經棄保潛逃過還遭到通緝通緝期間還冒名使用他人護照非法出境兩次這種人二審判刑那麼重結果可以不用電子監控這到底是怎麼回事我就開始追了我上一次去年的時候"},{"start":3163.052,"end":3191.402,"text":"我們司法院的秘書長說高院可以施壓迴避喔可以施壓迴避喔刑事訴訟法有施壓迴避嗎結果司法院極盡包庇之能事極盡包庇之能事我在司法法治委員會問這個問題的時候還有民進黨的立委跑出來擋所以立委不可以問司法院這個問題奇怪在法治面上我國刑事訴訟法何時規定施壓迴避"},{"start":3194.534,"end":3216.553,"text":"不喜歡的法官就施壓 叫他迴避不是申請迴避 申請迴避被最高法院駁回了然後呢 高院的庭長跑去施壓他哇 這個中文字有通天的本領啊結果施壓迴避了以後 施壓的那個高院的行政庭庭長司法院有做任何處分嗎"},{"start":3218.155,"end":3244.636,"text":"還是司法院要告訴全體全國高院的法官以後大家都可以施壓有樣學樣沒有關係司法院不會管來請司法院表明立場有關於這個部分呢就是司法院做過調查之後呢那個調查報告我看啊那個受訪的法官說什麼被問的法官他是不是說他覺得被施壓調查報告你有看嗎"},{"start":3246.349,"end":3264.501,"text":"有閱讀了對啊那個被施壓的法官說什麼說沒有啦 庭長只是關心我他沒有施壓啦那個法官是這樣講的嗎還是他覺得很不舒服被施壓那法官怎麼說的那個"},{"start":3266.263,"end":3295.621,"text":"就那個紀法官他當時就是第一個時間點的那個因為他接到那個電話據他所說那個接到電話的時候時間很短那後來的時候呢他的審判長也有再去求證那可能是雙方對於這件事情的解讀哇 這樣子就輕輕帶過去了雙方的解讀不一樣法官覺得被施壓庭長說我只是去關心我們追求司法審判獨立多久了"},{"start":3296.854,"end":3325.048,"text":"台灣喔台灣人追求司法審判獨立多久了沒想到以前中國國民黨一黨專政搞的事情啊在民進黨推動司法改革以後繼續上演可以湊成這個樣子更離譜的事情是什麼就這張圖仔細看當初被施壓的法官他說要電子監控結果呢結果人家心灰意冷不如歸去啊他把法官給辭了"},{"start":3326.854,"end":3355.13,"text":"非常優秀的法官他不幹了他不幹了可以這樣施壓我沒有任何的結論司法院沒有任何的作為這個法官不幹了結果不幹了非常厲害換另外一個法官就是這個法官解除電子監控的結果中文字很厲害中文字找的律師都很有來歷"},{"start":3356.901,"end":3385.095,"text":"幫他解除電子監控的那位律師 邱昌宏律師之前是不是最高法院的院長是吧洪昌宏對 洪昌宏律師最高法院的庭長他庭長嘛 是邱宗義是不是他的庭員在統一庭 沒錯沒有錯嘛 是現在喔從高院到檢察官大家非常憤怒大家非常憤怒喔"},{"start":3386.465,"end":3414.574,"text":"周文智去找一個之前的庭長來當辯護人結果他之前的庭員就給他解除電子監控這件事情司法院有沒有下去調查有沒有下去調查調查有關於那個選任辯護人不是啦調查憑什麼給他解除電子監控這個事情不用調查嗎還是覺得司法院沒有關係這個是審判獨立"},{"start":3416.806,"end":3441.175,"text":"高院自家的法官可以去施壓下面的法官然後這種社會矚目群情劃然的案件司法院認為沒有必要調查司法院的標準是這樣嗎是這樣嗎這件事要不要調查我打開天窗說亮話這是法官跟檢察官跟我檢舉的"},{"start":3443.866,"end":3469.472,"text":"這是法官跟檢察官跟我檢舉的司法院都沒有掌握高等法院都不用提檢討還是沒有關係跟社會大眾講我們司法院會繼續開會研議如何精進防逃兩年前那一套那一套宮廷系繼續搬出來演一次就好了司法院要不要調查"},{"start":3472.093,"end":3486.728,"text":"就給一個答案嘛你不要調查就勇敢跟我說我司法院就不會調查嘛這件事情就放水流嘛我司法院現在就是毫無作為擺爛到底嘛要不然你要怎麼樣說清楚要不要調查"},{"start":3488.28,"end":3517.566,"text":"有關於那個裁定的那個部分這部分確實是涉及那個法官審判那個獨立的部分那如果說在司法行政部分有違釋的話很厲害嘛所以你們司法院很厲害啊行政庭長去施壓法官你們調查下去真的有被施壓沒有關係結果法官氣得不幹換另外一個法官就幫他解除電子簽禁哇原來綠色權貴啊再走法院啊是暢通無形啊"},{"start":3519.181,"end":3547.324,"text":"配合的很好啊不用給社會大眾一個交代還是司法院我就擺爛要不然你要怎麼樣嘛為什麼人民啊對司法的信任越來越低啊搞了七年的司法改革啊搞出這種垃圾出來我很清楚的講"},{"start":3548.464,"end":3572.869,"text":"我在國會殿堂非常負責任的講不是只有我憤怒一堆檢察官一堆法官大家都很憤怒到底發生什麼事啊剛答應的喔兩邊誰說謊兩邊誰說謊一個禮拜之內各自提出證據下一次質詢的時候我繼續追究謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":3592.191,"end":3601.02,"text":"法務部跟警政署的代表麻煩次長委員好"},{"start":3604.332,"end":3631.454,"text":"今天這個刑法的修正案我想請問一下過去在採取這種尿液的檢查的時候實務上有沒有未經對方同意或沒有任何的文件就讓這個當事人就說你現在去給我採尿液然後我懷疑你吸毒我現在叫你去採尿液有沒有發生過這種事"},{"start":3633.689,"end":3662.858,"text":"是不是那請問一下委員是指逮捕居體的嗎不是 就是說譬如說毒駕酒駕之類的不會一般來講都有其他的事證譬如說在車上有扣到毒品或者是他行車是有不正常的軌跡那他如果發現他有毒品對不對然後呢你就覺得他吸毒是那你叫他採尿液"},{"start":3663.356,"end":3689.887,"text":"那他不採呢不採在法律上規定是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗那非侵入性是什麼意思當時就是食物上的非侵入性是什麼概念對就是讓他喝水然後排尿那他如果都不喝呢都不喝到後來我們就報請檢察官回到205之一採鑑定許可書"},{"start":3692.301,"end":3694.087,"text":"那報請檢察官要時間嗎"},{"start":3695.785,"end":3720.945,"text":"那我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛 對不對你們認為要趕快採嘛 對不對修這個法是因為我們憲判16號認為說這個部分還是要有這個令狀所以有令狀所以才205-2 205-3才說這個部分有關非侵入性的也是需要經過檢察官的許可所以才增訂了205-2然後-3變成說那個"},{"start":3725.73,"end":3733.244,"text":"這個處分數的格式許可書的格式裡面是怎麼樣的對 但是現在又認為說這個如果有這個認定"},{"start":3735.38,"end":3759.64,"text":"認定我要馬上裁 後來才報檢察官嘛 對不對那這個認定是給警方或 就是說警方或者這個相關的司法警察有很大的裁揚權 是不是包委 那個是對於 我們現在是這樣子齁我們205-1-2-3是針對具體跟逮捕的 我們範圍已經限縮了那像街頭上的盤查那個部分 那是一定要回歸到強制處分"},{"start":3760.18,"end":3779.313,"text":"那我們是已經經過 譬如說現場已經有毒品了 那我已經經過居體或逮捕那這個限縮這個範圍的對象是已經經過居體跟逮捕那居體跟逮捕在過去裡面 他如果不想採尿 我們可能就是給他喝水那給他喝水以後 所以才會延伸到111年的憲判16號然後憲判16號下來以後 事實上憲判16號下來以後"},{"start":3784.366,"end":3799.53,"text":"我們在整個警政署他整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判這個16號的相關規定訂定一個SOP那我們現在只是把它法制化那如果這一個當事人他不服"},{"start":3800.171,"end":3825.224,"text":"現在的這個新的規定是說他可以救濟嘛那救濟的話如果檢察官撤銷撤銷是就是採的這個相關的這個市政就不用了是不是是這個意思是不是是是不具證據能力那如果說這個不具證據能力那之前採的就算啦就是就把它銷毀掉啦那當事人也沒有辦法說你當時為什麼給我採"},{"start":3827.506,"end":3848.539,"text":"是 所以因為這個範圍已經很限縮到具體逮捕這個範圍已經非常小 具體逮捕那我們現在規範的是非侵入性的只要是侵入性的 可能就要回到205-1的鑑定許可書可能請專業的醫生採尿 導尿 或者是採血液等等這些那現在就是205-2-3 現在最主要在規範這些"},{"start":3851.26,"end":3877.503,"text":"那205之三司法院,再請司法院的同仁205之三司法院的版本跟行政院的版本我如果從字面上看起來是有一個司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人然後行政院的版本是要出示許可書"},{"start":3879.511,"end":3903.21,"text":"這兩個的文字上,你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執?像委員報告,之所以司法院版本是規定送交這是因為採刑事訴訟法類似規定的相同法例像34條之一限制辯護人跟其他被告接見通信的限制書還有103條"},{"start":3905.692,"end":3932.29,"text":"就是羈押那個押票那還有203條之二這個執行鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置書都是採相同的法例要那個送交那這個也有一個作用就是說那個送交之後呢這個被告或者是犯罪嫌疑人呢他可以依據這個從這個時間點很清楚的就是說提出救濟"},{"start":3933.22,"end":3947.718,"text":"就是說你送交給他的那一個時間點開始對不對是是是嗎是那你們雙方的文字啊這個行政院的版本叫做初試對不對"},{"start":3949.867,"end":3965.622,"text":"出示這個許可書嗎報告委員我想我想比較我們行政院版跟司法院版的不一樣的地方在於說他們使用送交給執行機關跟受裁員人"},{"start":3967.063,"end":3987.377,"text":"那這一個動作的話在前面一條就是侵入性的205-1請鑑定人採尿的我們只是希望我們只是出示就是這一個許可書加上出示證件就可以完成了程序同樣的是採尿結果現在新的法律規定205-2卻是要送達"},{"start":3990.459,"end":4011.677,"text":"送交送交給執行機關以及受採人變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序我們第一線執行的警察一定會搞混到底是要送交不送交其實送交跟救濟沒有關係因為只要強制準備做了以後10天就是他的救濟期間不需要跟205之一有不同的規定"},{"start":4012.338,"end":4028.018,"text":"我想這是比較接近就是只要出示我們給他許可書然後出示證件這個就可以達到他這個救濟的期間的期算我想就不用再規定這個送交這兩個字了好 那司法員你們雙方的這個就這些文字上的差別"},{"start":4028.979,"end":4056.963,"text":"像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的"},{"start":4057.677,"end":4075.076,"text":"OK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他"},{"start":4077.113,"end":4100.879,"text":"你們怎麼可以在這裡談個案呢 談到那麼細 談到個別的人 個別的法官 個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的 這個到時候你就回答他 個案 委員個案我們不便回答好不好我們先入到個案裡頭 個案有時候是 講到這裡就好了 謝謝"},{"start":4103.796,"end":4125.492,"text":"謝謝王委員那我們下一位請吳思堯委員發言謝主席有請我們的王蜂蜜還有我們的許次還有次長"},{"start":4136.932,"end":4154.772,"text":"兩位辛苦了台灣是法治國家我們當然要依法行政所以我今天直接破題就兩個主題就教於兩位一個就是言論自由不等於無法無天鼓吹戰爭是法所不容更是世界孑然的舉世標準"},{"start":4156.374,"end":4170.145,"text":"第二個呢 跟司法院相關現在立法院要用空殼的公投來否決憲判或者是用不存在的公投來進行政治的操作是不是又有違憲的疑慮呢來 下一頁"},{"start":4172.808,"end":4199.954,"text":"言論自由有其邊界台灣不能再有下一個啞啞在台灣來鼓吹戰爭鼓吹中國侵略台灣台灣更是一個愛的世界我們都不能容許任何人用仇恨煽動歧視的言論來對待他人法所不容而且這是世界皆准"},{"start":4201.174,"end":4220.547,"text":"兩位誰可以來跟大家分享一下公民與政治權利的國際公約裡頭它確實保障了意見表意自由保障了言論自由但是它也有排除的限制條款誰可以分享一下複密"},{"start":4223.15,"end":4239.855,"text":"這個就如委員在這個資料上面所顯示的就是在那個公民與政治權利公約的第20條呢他有明白講了一些就是言論自由的界限像是那個鼓吹戰爭的這個宣傳那就必須要以法律禁止之這是一個界限"},{"start":4241.348,"end":4264.484,"text":"所以非常清楚 雖然公民與政治權利國際公約第19條有保障自由的權利不管是表意言論自由的權利 但是同一條它也揭出了必須進行某種限制因為基於保障國家安全或公共秩序或公共衛生或社會的風俗文化"},{"start":4265.405,"end":4288.244,"text":"而二十條如剛富密所說的 他更正面的來說明說鼓吹戰爭的宣傳要以法律來禁止之第二呢 任何鼓吹民族種族宗教仇恨會造成煽動歧視敵視或強暴者也要用法律禁止所以這是世界皆准"},{"start":4289.67,"end":4314.778,"text":"也是法之不容而在台灣的國內法兩岸人民關係條例已經清楚的針對有事實族認為有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘者就違反了我們的兩岸條例必須依法該強制出境的該遣送的都要依法執行而台灣的入出國籍移民法再一次的說明了"},{"start":4315.498,"end":4324.195,"text":"昨天政府對於啞啞案的執法都是依法所據是捍衛台灣的國家安全下一頁"},{"start":4326.297,"end":4350.903,"text":"所以說我們今天在這裡講法理言論自由是人民的基本權我們絕對的捍衛也跟大家分享吳思瑤從國會助理政治工作到我現在正式第一線的從事民代公職我當初正因為受到鄭南榮先生的感召當他的自焚那時候我十多歲"},{"start":4352.338,"end":4373.199,"text":"有人可以為了爭取言論自由而犧牲壯烈犧牲他的生命受到鄭楠榮先生堅持百分之百的言論自由我決定我今生要從政我要捍衛台灣的自由權利所以言論自由是人民的基本權這也是無數個"},{"start":4374.84,"end":4397.227,"text":"黨外人士民進黨人士用生命犧牲捍衛得來的但是言論自由不是沒有邊界的他必須嚴格的審查所謂的嚴格審查是說對於政治性言論的限制正因為我們保障了自由所以要採取嚴格審查的標準而不是"},{"start":4398.396,"end":4426.312,"text":"任意的去限縮人民的言論自由而且言論自由絕對不是事前審查不像中國那樣事前透過出版透過你各種的言論進行事前審查我們是事後的限制如果有任何違反國家安全或者是以暴力手段來進行好民主政變政治變革的可能的話事後來予以限制這都是法理上告訴我們的"},{"start":4426.952,"end":4448.561,"text":"保障言論自由我們也要保障公共利益跟國家安全下一頁我想那個次長可以跟我們分享一下美國最高法院的裁決對於TikTok的禁令您知道這個案例嗎知道您可不可以跟大家分享一下美國最高法院"},{"start":4449.943,"end":4456.909,"text":"他們如何認為基於國家安全的考量他們裁決要用合理的方式來進行特殊的限制"},{"start":4458.511,"end":4481.56,"text":"我想因為TICO我們大概都知道它有很強烈的中資色彩那它跟中國政府會有很密切的關係那為了美國的國家安全它可能為了避開國家遭受到一些威脅所以它認為這時候的言論自由權利會在某程度受到限制"},{"start":4481.84,"end":4500.802,"text":"所以美國最高法院的九名大法官是一致認為TikTok與中國政府的關係所構成的國家安全風險遠遠大於TikTok所設的1.7億用戶的言論自由權利這就是言論自由跟國家安全"},{"start":4502.25,"end":4512.143,"text":"必須在權衡下做出正確的選擇這就是為什麼美國的最高法院對TikTok來禁止它是核限的"},{"start":4513.533,"end":4536.982,"text":"這就是我為什麼今天一直破題言論自由非常重要但是國家安全不可偏廢而言論自由必須有所限制這是法律的授權規範也是世界皆准的觀念一定要在這裡澄清下一頁那現在對於司法院未來可能很頭痛"},{"start":4538.602,"end":4551.937,"text":"現在有兩個不存在的假議題的公投但是昨天在立法院被弄假成真了在野黨委員非常遺憾用會議外的時間偷襲開會然後"},{"start":4554.159,"end":4578.093,"text":"只為了強行表決禁覆二讀兩個不存在的公共議題一個反廢死一個反戒嚴其實他們的政治目的只是讓公投來綁罷免也就是公投來救罷免下頁這是他們的主文荒謬至極跟你們反廢死他們這個反廢死的你們有沒有讀到這個主文有覆滅有沒有"},{"start":4581.892,"end":4608.764,"text":"我就不在這裡去拆穿這個前後邏輯矛盾那根本是邏輯壞死喔但是我要提到的是下一頁台灣確實存在死刑嘛台灣沒有廢死嘛次長我們最近執行的死刑以及高雄地院何一庭做成的死刑判決您再一次清楚向國人說明台灣並沒有廢死"},{"start":4609.885,"end":4617.748,"text":"在今年的4月1號1月12號1月16號的時候呢我們執行了黃姓的死窮槍決案子"},{"start":4627.574,"end":4653.293,"text":"那再來就是最近高雄應該是高雄地院也判決了對於這一個殺害兩位夫妻的這一個也是判處死刑所以在死刑在嚴格的程序跟情節最嚴重的這個判刑的話事實上我們法院還是有 維持有死刑的判決"},{"start":4654.181,"end":4669.353,"text":"所以說我們大法官釋字第八號也講得很清楚死刑核限對不對只是我們要進行一些更嚴謹的正當法律的程序下一頁所以說國民黨所推的反廢死公投"},{"start":4670.174,"end":4698.045,"text":"他是反對一個毫不存在的事實法界我要提醒跟司法院未來絕對相關法界的意見像陳一錢教授都講得非常清楚這個反Face的題目或是反戒嚴的公投題目都違反了憲法的明確性原則只是把公投當作綁裝的工具蘇子喬教授也好或者是政大的林佳和教授也都說"},{"start":4699.646,"end":4722.213,"text":"國民黨提案的公投並沒有符合憲法的明確性原則而且這個題目既非創制沒有具體的法政策更不是覆決這個公投非常嚴重的瑕疵跟邏輯的壞死下一頁跟司法院有什麼關係"},{"start":4724.762,"end":4753.101,"text":"當初當我們對於國會擴選的法案憲法法庭宣判之後立法院就有一股立委他要提公投法要用公投法的修正來否決憲判而我的解讀剛剛的反廢死公投也某種程度是在對大法官的憲法法庭的解釋他們去做誤導的這些政治操作也就是當"},{"start":4754.662,"end":4782.794,"text":"立法院的委員說司法院的憲法法庭判決不能凌駕立法院那很好啊本來五院憲法機關就是平等相違啊立委認為司法院要尊重立法院那當然立法院的委員不能用修法的方式或是用這種不存在的公投議題來凌駕司法院的權限嘛這件事情非常嚴重喔如果說未來國民黨委員的修法還用公投法的修正來否決憲判"},{"start":4784.635,"end":4804.791,"text":"這就是違反憲法78條司法院解釋憲法的權利也違反了大法官已經做成的185號釋字司法院解釋憲法的統一權限如果任何違背解釋的判例當然是其效力但是任何人都要尊重憲法法庭的憲判"},{"start":4805.732,"end":4820.152,"text":"所以說憲法解釋等同憲法如果國民黨的委員認為公投如何如何那就進行必要的修憲或是修法的程序下一頁非常的遺憾在"},{"start":4821.522,"end":4838.382,"text":"死刑核限的憲判出爐之後我在這個場域立法院的司法法治委員會我一直說立法院的責任是什麼立法院的責任不是去推翻憲判而是針對憲判因為我們都要尊重憲法我們都要克尊憲法"},{"start":4839.423,"end":4861.421,"text":"在憲判出爐之後 立法院的使命是要透過修法來完備制度的配套比如說死刑核限但是我們如何強化法治來避免冤獄的產生我們如何來修法來防堵犯罪人逃避刑責的可能我們更應當來落實修法來推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化我已經說過N次了 下一頁"},{"start":4864.864,"end":4885.61,"text":"所以在立法院我們要修的法有刑法有刑事訴訟法有法院組織法有監獄刑刑法這是因應釋字第八號解釋之後立法院該做的工作也是行政部門應當啟動的修法配套的研議次長你們進行到哪裡了有一部分是在我們部內還在審查"},{"start":4891.684,"end":4912.607,"text":"那刑法的部分已經送到行政院了是所以行政部門該做的準備都在進行該做的制度經濟那個配套都負責任的進行而立法院我要問問國民黨的委員只會去操作這種空殼公投詐騙空投請問立委你們一直則該啟動的修法做了沒沒有"},{"start":4914.065,"end":4928.534,"text":"自己該做的職責不善盡來提這些沒有道理不存在的議題詐騙公投來愚弄社會來挽救罷免這實在是荒天下之大謬"},{"start":4930.535,"end":4954.203,"text":"請法務部即刻針對必要的制度配套加速已經送院的當然在行政院但是你們內部還在研議中而且要擴大社會民間對話的我們持續進行我再次的呼籲立法院昨天的違法開會違法一決都不應當被認同而我相信我們主持已經有一年經驗的吳宗憲、張偉非常清楚如果開會表定時間到6點"},{"start":4956.084,"end":4978.824,"text":"我們的主席非常有經驗都會按照議事規則在6點前來進行現場的詢問我們要延長會議在場的委員同意嗎這是議事規則的ABC吳宗憲委員也都必須遵從這樣子的規則只是昨天立法院的韓國瑜院長並沒有在大會做明確的延長會議的"},{"start":4981.446,"end":4997.745,"text":"宣讀以及進行院會的公決這樣的會議就是違法的會議就是無效的表決當然連同連帶被偷渡偷襲的兩個公投案當然也無效好 今天質詢到這裡 該做的準備我們做好準備 謝謝"},{"start":5004.105,"end":5030.28,"text":"那個下一位我們請翁曉琳委員那委員這個你剛說我都不評論啊我剛是請教一個程序上的沒有沒有不評論程序上的問題就是說因為之前您有抗議過好幾次我的主持就是讓讓委不是不是我不是討論昨天的事情我說你讓委員不可以問官員今天議題以外的事嘛你以前抗議過好幾次但你剛問的東西跟本日的議題無關是不是以後我們達成一個共識如果委員"},{"start":5030.7,"end":5056.02,"text":"妳在侵犯我的言論自由喔妳在侵犯我的問政自由喔這個是妳當初質疑其他立委妳在侵犯我的言論自由請不要發言喔現在是我發言的現在我發言妳當初抗議過好幾個委員在問跟本日無關的議程那我今天只是確認如果可以說可以說大家都這樣做的話那是不是我們在這個委員的時間內我們都讓委員能夠自由的詢問我只是確認這個事情"},{"start":5060.623,"end":5088.313,"text":"好不好我只是確認這個事情我要讓會議順利的進行所以我要確認我接下來這段時間主持會議我們本委員會該怎麼做那因為之前吳思耀委員多次抗議其他委員在執行台上面詢問官員跟本日疫情無關的案件所以如果今天我們可以讓委員在他的時間內就"},{"start":5089.853,"end":5108.394,"text":"被詢問的官員詢問任何種問題的話那這就是形成我們一個慣例將來只要委員在質詢台上面發問任何的問題我們都會予以尊重我們不會像吳思瑤委員一方面抗議參加的委員一方面學會跟本事無關的議程同時質詢"},{"start":5112.258,"end":5129.354,"text":"自己也在議場上面詢問跟本日無關的議場以上這個就是我主持委員會主席這邊只是要做一個確認那如果一律不准其他的委員去問跟本日無關的我跟你講你不要罵這個會構成公然侮辱"},{"start":5132.27,"end":5158.718,"text":"如果今天我們同意其他的委員包括吳世耀委員可以詢問跟本日議程無關的議題的話那就大家一律適用我個人還是公平的主持會議就是一併大家共同的適用其他人都不用再多說這個是我在主持會議請安靜我在主持會議請安靜不要干擾我主持會議"},{"start":5159.978,"end":5187.854,"text":"請不要干擾我主持會議今天今天我們講的很簡單就是我要確認我們會議的進行該怎麼做所以很簡單的是如果今天各位委員都可以在台上面利用他的時間詢問各式各樣的問題那我們就予以尊重只要不違法我們就予以尊重那我想這次我將來我主持會大概就會採這個模式而不是說像上次有多位委員去"},{"start":5189.094,"end":5200.778,"text":"罵質詢的委員說你問的問題跟本日的議程無關那將來大家說的我都會予以尊重那剛剛不當的干擾那就算了我原諒你好那我們下一位請翁曉婷委員發言我說我原諒的時候我不會提出告訴啦請放心"},{"start":5215.325,"end":5228.618,"text":"主席好 辛苦了有時候在開會的時候難免會遇到比較暴衝的委員會干擾議事接下來我想請司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長還有請法務部次長好了 先請兩位委員長"},{"start":5238.607,"end":5263.775,"text":"是 我也是一開始我想先針對剛剛吳斯堯委員提出來的幾個問題在這裡我覺得還是要做一個澄清做一個說明這個所謂的樹葉有專攻這我上來我都不會太去批評吳斯堯委員畢竟他不是學法律的有時候講一些似是而非的事情這個他要"},{"start":5267.246,"end":5294.623,"text":"他要把一些不正確的訊息當成謠言一樣的散播出去那這個部分呢我想對於這個懂法律的人來講就會知道他所說的話基本上一笑大方那麼常常就是透過質詢自曝其短他就不是學法律的人剛剛講到所謂的公投依照我們公投法的規定我想兩位應該清楚知道立法院有沒有權利可以提起公投案"},{"start":5299.517,"end":5320.124,"text":"請問複密事實上請問對先請問複密您您知道公投法的規定立法院有沒有權利可以提起公投案依公投法第15條那個立法院是有職權的是我們可以提出什麼樣的公投案可以提出那個復決"},{"start":5321.533,"end":5349.731,"text":"重大政策的創制與覆決吧是不是我想這個徐司長應該也清楚知道我們現在公投法的規定對不對我們立法院本來就有權利可以提起公投案那至於公投案的主文的部分這是當然是基於立法院的這個經過大家的這個討論提案通過之後立法院所提出來的公投案的主文中選會有權利可以審查嗎"},{"start":5353.608,"end":5373.118,"text":"請問兩位知不知道 清不清楚中選會是不是可以審查立法院這個是中選會的職權中選會的職權 看起來兩位可能不太清楚知道我們現在公投法怎麼規定中選會基本上是無權審查立法院所提出來的公投案"},{"start":5374.653,"end":5401.97,"text":"我們這次提出了兩個公投案一個是所謂的講說是所謂的反廢死公投案另外一個是反戒嚴公投案其實在反廢死公投案裡面的主文它其實非常的清楚基本上是要讓全民去決定到底支不支持我們現在我們這個未來如果我們要求各級法院判處死刑的法官是不需要一製決"},{"start":5403.251,"end":5420.769,"text":"因为依照现在宪判之八号里面的这个要求各级法院的法官未来在做成死刑判决的时候是要一致决的而这个情况的确就会提高就是他基本上就已经促成了十字Face"},{"start":5421.417,"end":5446.793,"text":"的這個情況在我們現在台灣本來就是執行死刑很不容易那麼判處死刑其實門檻也是很高但是大法官憲判自8號做成之後其實會更增加判處死刑的難度所以我們這次提出的這個公投案基本上它就是一個重大的政策到底大家支不支持未來我們的這個"},{"start":5449.787,"end":5466.653,"text":"相關的修法和立法的重大的政策我們是不是必須要同意全民是不是同意我們這個是不需要經由法官一致決的同樣的反軍事反戒嚴公投也是一樣賴清德宣布了這17條看起來就是要把台灣這個帶向這個戰爭的邊緣或者是說要實施所謂的這個"},{"start":5479.95,"end":5509.017,"text":"軍事戒嚴那這個問題是很嚴重啊那我們台灣我們支持這樣子的一個政策嗎這難道不需要全民來一起表達意見嗎現在民進黨是在怕什麼他們怕公投通過之後會打臉民進黨因為他們支持廢死支持還死支持準軍事戒嚴所以他們這麼的杯葛我們這次立法院所提出來的兩大公投案"},{"start":5511.021,"end":5539.458,"text":"我要再次重申昨天在立法院的會議整整的浪費了一整天就是因為民進黨委員從會議一開始就霸佔主席台昨天明明應該是施政總質詢要讓他完成結果讓所有的部會首長院長坐在下面耽誤了一整天的時間"},{"start":5542.062,"end":5566.499,"text":"那只是我也是覺得說行政院非常的不尊重立法院我們所有的委員都堅持到七點半之後才離開這個立法院院長當時就有說接下來叫施政總質詢這院長竟然抗命耶 部會首長竟然抗命竟然不回來這完全是違反這個憲政體制"},{"start":5570.14,"end":5597.142,"text":"權力分立的原則立法院是監督行政院而且行政院本來就有義務要到立法院接受備詢結果他竟然可以自動放假自動休息我們韓院長昨天在立法院等待他們40分鐘行政院離立法院是很遠嗎非常的遙遠40分鐘都趕不過來嗎"},{"start":5601.042,"end":5627.961,"text":"實在是讓我感到非常的這個痛心啊看到現在台灣這個行政院不像行政院他倒已經是背離了憲法所賦予他的職責既不尊重立法院而且還處處就抗議向這個立法院抗議明明政府就是個管家但是他偏偏爬到人民頭家的頭上"},{"start":5629.638,"end":5647.619,"text":"接下來我想請教我們王副秘書長的就是大法官總統府已經公告了大法官的候選人我想這次的名單其實令大家比較訝異的就是司法院院長的被庭人"},{"start":5648.26,"end":5664.129,"text":"是出生於這個檢查體系那麼我想請問就是從司法院的角度來看你們會接受這樣子的一個安排嗎會不會擔心未來的這個院長基本上根本不了解司法院裡面"},{"start":5666.437,"end":5681.426,"text":"這個的一些狀況因為我們知道其實從過去這些年來從民國八十八年來其實還可以推到更早向來的司法院院長從來沒有過是檢查體系出身的所以請問父母你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":5682.975,"end":5693.825,"text":"有關於那個大法官的提名還有審查呢他分別是屬於總統還有立法院的職權那我想司法院會尊重就是相關有權責機關那個職權的行使謝謝"},{"start":5696.909,"end":5722.404,"text":"了解好那麼當然這個最後院長的候選人還是要經過立法院統一通過但是我們還是會基本上從司法院的角度去思考這件事情這個被庭理人這位被庭理人到底夠不夠Qualify他了不了解司法院裡面的一些問題畢竟審檢的體系是不一樣的而且這個可能也會有一些疑慮好那接下來我在"},{"start":5724.726,"end":5752.304,"text":"繼續想要請問的就是在前兩個禮拜因為柯文哲父親過世所以我們也看到了除了柯文哲當然他一定在現場參與他父親的告別式另外我們也看到了陳水扁請問司法院還有法務部你們現在看到陳水扁你們的想法是什麼"},{"start":5753.612,"end":5767.263,"text":"他的案子該重新恢復審判了嗎你們知道陳水扁的幾個案子到目前為止庭審多久的時間"},{"start":5769.776,"end":5794.832,"text":"現在目前是在裁定停止的狀況那這個部分因為是屬於法官個案所以我們行政部不方便表示意見是好你們都說是這是個案但是我要講就是你從個案你就可以看出整個司法體系到底公不公正獨不獨立所有的人台灣的人民都可以清清楚楚知道陳水扁的身體很好"},{"start":5795.896,"end":5824.858,"text":"他還可以幫他的女兒去擔任訴訟代理人但是他竟然沒有辦法沒有能力他竟然這個法院還有我們的法務部這個高院還有最高檢察還有這個高檢署竟然都沒有要求要重新回覆審判法務委員我們已經有這四個案件我們都有那個發函處請我們法院盡速開庭是所以現在責任回到法院嗎"},{"start":5826.215,"end":5829.437,"text":"所以高院什麼時候要恢復審判下一頁下一頁我希望司法院能夠去了解這些事情這個不是單純的個案這已經涉及到這個法官陳審法官他沒有失職的問題"},{"start":5851.482,"end":5870.006,"text":"其實訴訟法的規定我相信父母也很清楚知道相關的規定這未來如果說繼續讓這些案子延誤下去然後造成又是陳水扁的案子免訴他現在已經有個案子已經免訴了是要繼續往下面拖嗎拖到另外三個案子全部都免訴嗎好我認為這個問題其實很嚴重他真的是涉及到國人對於司法的公信力"},{"start":5882.213,"end":5910.33,"text":"不要再這麼消極下去接下來我還再問一下有關於軍審的問題賴清德總統他在最近的賴17條裡面他特別有提到要恢復軍事審判本席想了解其實就目前法院審理有關於軍人案件的狀況是有治安難行之處嗎"},{"start":5912.028,"end":5927.02,"text":"你們認為說法官有沒有能力可以去處理有關於涉及到國安的案件涉及到就是軍人違反陸海空軍刑法一般刑法或是違反國家安全等等這些案件"},{"start":5929.895,"end":5955.06,"text":"好那個謝謝委員就是有關於就是軍事審判現在未來就是那個制度的那個規劃我們會那個尊重就是相關那個權責機關他們的那個的那個決定啊那有關於這個部分呢就是在102年就是那個軍事審判法第一條那個規就是規定修改了之後那還有就是後來的那個"},{"start":5956.1,"end":5982.814,"text":"國安法19條規定了之後呢其實司法院都有因應成立了相關的那個專庭那我想這一個部分呢就是我再提一點司法院的基本立場因為有關於就是軍事審判呢我們會遵循就是大法官會議解釋436曾經做過那個解釋啊他就說那個憲法第9條人民除了現役軍人之外呢不受軍事審判那這個並不是說"},{"start":5985.155,"end":6001.642,"text":"軍事審判機關對於軍人的犯罪有專屬的審判權那有關於這個建制呢憲法沒有明文規定這個事實上是以法律規定那但是呢一定是要那個符合正當法律程序那所以我想"},{"start":6002.502,"end":6021.157,"text":"如果司法院必須要提是當時候提供意見的時候呢我們也會就是依就是說未來建制希望是可以就是就這個獨立跟公正還有專業性朝這個方面去建構謝謝好因為本席有看到就是你們其實在112年還113年的時候其實有修過你們的這個業務辦法事務分配規則所以看起來你們自己目前內部應該也有專股或者是有這個"},{"start":6032.813,"end":6057.831,"text":"專門的國安軍事法庭但只是說想了解你們這些法官有接受相關的專業訓練嗎有的那個依法一年是要接受12個小時那個訓練那我們也都每年都有固定開課今年呢剛剛在那個三月間的時候那個辦過那也有那個研討會就是邀請那個國安單位的那個人跟我們那個法院端一起來研討案例"},{"start":6058.131,"end":6076.978,"text":"好的 所以從複密這邊的角度就是聽到您剛的說明那看起來就是說其實普通法院基本上還是有能力可以去處理相關的案子而且法官也積極地充實相關的知識所以有沒有必要真的全部恢復軍事審判我認為說這個地方還有值得"},{"start":6082.181,"end":6097.021,"text":"這個去深思的這個必要那當然我也期待就是現在國防部就我了解現在國防部自己自己單方面的在提有關於軍事審判法的相關的修法那我也希望司法院能夠加入一起討論"},{"start":6097.862,"end":6115.915,"text":"如果說真的有必要要恢復軍事審判那就是看在什麼樣程度之下是在普通法院底下設置專庭或者是說是透過軍法官參審制而這部分的話司法院都跟司法院有關所以我希望你們能夠積極的參與討論好 以上謝謝好 謝謝翁委員那下一個我們請審法會委員發言"},{"start":6137.526,"end":6141.212,"text":"好 主席我們請司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長委員好"},{"start":6146.452,"end":6166.498,"text":"副議長好,有關於今天的議程,有關刑事訴訟法的部分修正條文我想這些部分,事實上大家有滿高度的共識,我相信沒有什麼爭議今天利用這個機會,我就來跟我們司法院來探討幾個我個人比較關心的問題"},{"start":6168.618,"end":6186.152,"text":"首先我們在2017年8月的四改國事會議裡面,我們那時候有關於完善行事正路的保管制度在2017年8月,四改國事會議就做成這樣子的決議2017年到現在,2025,經過這麼多年"},{"start":6191.584,"end":6210.507,"text":"我想了解說我們有關於這個完善刑事證物的保管制度我們到底做了什麼做了什麼樣的制度上面的變革不要講2017年我們從2020年我們監察院監察院他就有在109年度提出這個通案性的案件調查報告"},{"start":6211.628,"end":6239.195,"text":"也同樣提及有關我們目前刑事案件的這些賬物證物的這些檔券的保管的這個調查研究報告這裡面這個就各機關就這些證物扣押物的這些保管處所他的規定他的列管字號這些相關的這個對於這樣子目前這些證物"},{"start":6240.492,"end":6260.701,"text":"照顧他的這些運送包括他的運送包括他的勾基的成本等等是不是能夠這個這個減少這樣證物滅失他掉包的風險還有有助於確保證物的統一性這些部分我們目前我們就從這個"},{"start":6263.441,"end":6279.487,"text":"2020年監察院調查報告到現在也是四年多的時間這四年多的時間我們通盤煎熬的情形是不是請副民長報告一下好 謝謝委員垂詢確實委員問的這問題是一個很重要的問題因為在偵查中就是這些張證物他是屬於那個"},{"start":6283.089,"end":6299.447,"text":"檢查機關他們所保管那到了那個起訴之後呢依規定是要送到那個院方來那所以就是相關的這些那個規定呢就是法院端呢也都有完善相關的那些那個制度什麼樣的完善什麼樣的完善制度說來參考看看"},{"start":6300.228,"end":6325.443,"text":"我們分別就是它是在幾個法律底下規定的一個是台灣高等法院及所屬各法院的章政務的管理要點還有一個是第三人保管扣押物的管理要點還有一個是法院處理扣押物的陰性注意事項這裡頭也都有把這些相關的就是說它怎麼去列冊"},{"start":6326.944,"end":6349.909,"text":"重要的這些證物它又有一些特別的一些那個比較嚴肅的一些程序這個包括司法國會一直到監察院的報告那時候都認為應該要建立一個國家級的專業的單一的證物保管機關這樣子的方向我們有沒有在研擬這樣的方向你來講好了"},{"start":6353.314,"end":6360.546,"text":"國家級的專業的單一的政務保管機關而不是像現在用這個管理要點下去下去這個簡單的由這個"},{"start":6365.734,"end":6391.012,"text":"法官或書記官來保管證物委員好 那有關這個部分我們有跟這個正在跟行政院這邊在修刑事訴訟法的140條這個部分就是有關證物 章證物保管的相關問題那我們有也有參加研議這個所研修經濟證證物監管制度的有12次我們開到第12次的會上上個禮拜3月24號才剛開過好我知道這個過程這個過程應該你們有你們可能開過很多次會那我只問"},{"start":6396.816,"end":6403.922,"text":"這個其他你們可能開過很多智慧希望能夠完善這個制度但是我再問一個問題就是說有關於各界建議認為應該應該要建立國家級專業單一的政務保險機關我們有沒有這樣的方向"},{"start":6411.121,"end":6437.076,"text":"沒有 到目前為止沒有目前在研議的過程中還沒有出現在沒有是 只讓我們會再把委員意見我現在講的這些都還是傳統的證物跟賬物我們在這個去年的7月16號我們通過通過這個這個有關於強特殊強制處分的相關規定也就是所謂科技偵查的這些現在科技新型態的這些證據證物這個"},{"start":6441.755,"end":6468.751,"text":"他的未來他有可能有可能這個被篡改被銷毀在過程中這個影響他這個證據的統一性的可能性更大我們連傳統的證物的目前的這些相關的這些保管制度我們都還沒有完善的建立目前的這些有關科技偵查特殊強制手段他所得的這些資料我們的相關保管我們現在有什麼樣的規定"},{"start":6471.892,"end":6479.798,"text":"向委員報告因為就是施行這個特殊的強制處分是由偵查機關或者是偵查輔助機關所發動的所以說他取得這些資料是屬於偵查資料偵查之後你進入法院"},{"start":6492.606,"end":6510.504,"text":"起訴之後他就這些證物一樣跟卷宗一併就交給你們法院是不是交給法院之後我在講的是進入審判程序之後由法院來保管這些相關的科技偵查的資料目前有建立什麼樣的制度嗎"},{"start":6514.069,"end":6535.659,"text":"跟委員報告一下關於數位證據的部分我們透過司法聯盟鏈這個部分讓大家上網再用一個透過所謂的加密這種方式或是賀許值的這種部分來確認它的同一性這部分這個司法聯盟鏈已經跟法務部我們去年修法的這個刑事訴訟法第153條第153之10條裡面的這個第5項有授權"},{"start":6542.302,"end":6566.118,"text":"授權這個這個依本章實施調查方式所得資料的程序管理及銷毀銷毀陳報通知等等這些的相關辦法由司法院會同行政院定制由這個第五項之後授權之後我們這個這個司法院訂定的刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分執行辦法對不對"},{"start":6567.403,"end":6592.161,"text":"是不是這個是我講的你們所謂的法律依據在這裡但是你們法律依據裡面的你們這個強制處分執行辦法裡面的特殊強制處分執行辦法裡面的這個第13條第13條第4項裡面有提到前項科技設備所屬公司部門或其他機關應訂定有關設備使用人員之資格限制"},{"start":6593.101,"end":6617.326,"text":"領用器材之內容工作日誌清澈使用期間相關規定這些東西這些相關的機制目前建立了沒有目前我們有請他們做相關的所以就是還沒有吧我們的執行辦法已經發下去那各單位也配合在執行辦法發案我在這講執行辦法裡面第13條第4項所規定的這些相關規定你們做了沒有這些"},{"start":6622.581,"end":6646.237,"text":"其他機關應該訂定關於設備使用人員資格限制包括領用之器材內容工作日誌還有你這個使用期間等相關規定這些規定規定了沒有這個是由各執行機關規定那你們有沒有看上次在刑事警察局那邊他們說有關相關的規定他們都已經建置完畢了"},{"start":6647.799,"end":6661.81,"text":"是刑事警察局的部分啦其他的單位部分我們會繼續再追蹤其他最重要的是我現在要講的就是說我們現在目前的這個刑事證物的保管制度從傳統的這些證據保管一直到"},{"start":6662.839,"end":6675.489,"text":"現在這些特殊強制處分的這些科技的這些證物這些目前我們整個保管的制度事實上是大有問題啦那事實上也很多各方都認為說有關這些相關的證物應該要建立"},{"start":6679.451,"end":6705.937,"text":"一個單一的國家專業的國家的證據的這個保存的機關事實上從過去的許多案例我們看到太多太多的案例司法案例他就是因為這個整個證據證據的過程他的滅屍那造成這個判決上面的爭議這個從過去到現在一直是這樣所以司改國是會司改國是會不是吃飽沒事幹"},{"start":6708.383,"end":6713.239,"text":"來對我們的這個目前的這些證據相關的保管的這些措施提出建言"},{"start":6714.574,"end":6740.535,"text":"那我希望這個部分還是要把它法制化啦要把這個我們的刑事證物的這些保管制度還是應該要把它法制化啦那我希望說司法院是不是能夠在三個月裡面來邀集相關的機關包括這個民間團體來針對我國證物保存跟監管制度我們延伸整個目前法制檢討的會議好不好司法院能不能這樣做 三個月內"},{"start":6741.601,"end":6754.469,"text":"我們會議委員的指示辦理那剛才我們前面委員的質詢裡面也提到有關於這個國安目前的這些國安案件的相關的這些我知道啦 目前我們"},{"start":6755.56,"end":6766.865,"text":"有我們的法院有這個九個地方法院有設置專庭國安專庭那有19個19所法院有設立這個專股還有9個專庭19個專股那我們相關的這些這些我調你們的資料目前這些"},{"start":6780.772,"end":6802.099,"text":"這些專庭專股的這些法官他們也必須也過去我們也從109年度開始我們就已經辦理相關的這些國家安全的研習會每年好像每年109 110每一年都有辦理國家安全的研習會那我看到這個我們這個表上面我們目前的參與人數從109年20人 110年15人111年45人參與"},{"start":6810.231,"end":6829.301,"text":"112年12人參與整個加起來總計從109年到114年總計有167個人參與這167個人參與是不是有沒有重複的參與就是說我每一年都報名或者是說我可能報名了兩次或三次還是說我們現在目前看到167人是"},{"start":6832.298,"end":6859.651,"text":"我看到的是人次 就每一年辦理下來的人次那究竟這個參與的狀況目前有曾經參與過我們國家安全研習會的人數有沒有統計有沒有重複這個情形我們現在這個統計數上面是沒有辦法這個看不出來我就是因為看不出來我才問你那這個我們如果委員需要的話我們會進一步再去抓這個資料那這裡面也看到包括111年度"},{"start":6861.565,"end":6873.811,"text":"突然從前一年度15人增加到45人那114就是今年度也突然從去年44人增加到將近一倍的79人那這是有沒有什麼特別的"},{"start":6875.267,"end":6901.688,"text":"了解有什麼特別的因素這個是因為司法院深深體會到說這個國安的那個案件法官一定需要那個專業所以說我們也就是大力的去那個宣達那在今年呢就是說我們除了今年本來是預定只有三月這個梯次可是我們後來又增加了一個設計了一個完全不同的課程在六月又多增加了一個班不好意思我時間已經超過一段時間了那我最後我是希望"},{"start":6902.969,"end":6923.46,"text":"有關我們每一年度辦理這個研習法官最後我們都有一個學員的意見調查意見的調查統計都有這裡面大家反映出來有關學員的意見調查他們都反映出在實際審理國安案件的時候有關於目前的實地教學參訪"},{"start":6925.114,"end":6929.456,"text":"他們認為有高度的參考價值有關實地的教學參訪這個部分我們是不是能夠增加每年度我們辦理的實地教學參訪的次數"},{"start":6941.38,"end":6965.043,"text":"因為根據學員的回饋認為說這些實地教學參訪是對他們的這個判決是非常有幫助的那我們是不是增加能夠有考慮來增加這個實地教學參訪的次數同時我也希望說我們這個辦理之後我們能夠評估每一次這個實地教學的這些學習成果好不好我希望說這個部分"},{"start":6965.663,"end":6973.288,"text":"我希望我們司法院來考慮不好意思佔用大家的時間謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝召委有請我們法務部麻煩法務部測長徐次長"},{"start":6992.867,"end":6995.47,"text":"委員長市長有幾個問題來請教我以我們2022年九候一選舉為例就我們法務部受理了6858件的一個賄選案成功的起訴的是1353件"},{"start":7013.451,"end":7036.12,"text":"還起訴的102件但是呢這個就怪了我們這個檢舉的時候都有檢舉獎金嘛那我們所訂的一個規矩裡面是你只要檢察官提起公訴以後你就合法獎金四分之一嘛那經過一審二審有罪判決以後再給四分之一那最終有罪判決確定以後再發放剩餘的獎金那我要問的就是說"},{"start":7038.225,"end":7043.092,"text":"這個整個獎金的發放你們到底有沒有去關注是不是太過落後了"},{"start":7044.471,"end":7072.518,"text":"跟委員報告因為選舉獎金必須要非常審慎的查核因為有時候會發生說說檢舉的時候同時有人檢舉那我們又要判斷先後哪一個人對於偵查案件是有實質幫助包委這個沒有審查好的話將來我們就會承擔很大的所以問題就是我們的規定是把它規定說起訴了以後你要罰四分之一我懂你的意思我怕你"},{"start":7073.058,"end":7078.56,"text":"擔心說 哎喲 鬧雙胞啊 那個也減肌啊那個也減肌啊 但是你也撼得太多了嘛你這個成功起訴 你就跟這個還起訴的部分 你就將近的一千三百 將近一千四百件欸可是你核發的獎金才312件欸我的意思就是說 這個要特別謹慎啦謹慎說到底是哪一些人 因為有因跟有果嘛因為這個檢舉人 他所檢舉而導致這個案子來做一個破案"},{"start":7102.208,"end":7123.227,"text":"就對整個案件的偵查他有一個協力 他有來幫忙這也是我們這個整個獎金發放的一個制度可是問題是你如果弄到最後跟法律的明文的規定起訴起訴了以後解四分之一你起訴的案件這麼多可是呢你真正你給的案件差又不到四分之一"},{"start":7124.921,"end":7137.131,"text":"會不會有這個問題因為不是每個案子都有人檢舉不是所有的案子都所以不能用起訴的量來看合法獎金的量我現在就是有人檢舉我不知道跟你說我檢舉完之後"},{"start":7140.413,"end":7157.025,"text":"這個部分我們因為是層級就是從地檢署開始層級往上層爆那我們也都盡量來簡化它的流程那我們也會要求各省級增加那個審核人力我們會要求審核的效率要提高那當然啦"},{"start":7157.705,"end":7184.014,"text":"但是我們還是有原則 我的意思是說人民願意冒這樣的一個風險去做一個對於這個不法來做一個檢舉 尤其是選舉的一個案件我們政府理當給予他是按照法律的規定給他回饋 這也合理啦這也合理啦那另外呢 我又來就教了就是說這個部分可能就要請司法院司法院那個法務部請回"},{"start":7186.652,"end":7200.922,"text":"針對這個鑑定制度我要來請教副秘書長就是說我們整個刑務訴訟法的鑑定制度修法就是說2017年的司法改革國是會議對於鑑定因為鑑定對判決影響非常大甚至"},{"start":7202.023,"end":7222.57,"text":"也在講說這個鑑定人等於是穿白袍的一個法官法官你不可能所有的專業知識全部都知道我們就必須要委託去做一個鑑定所以鑑定人在司法審判中他確實有很大的一個影響力可是呢新制啊我看我們新制通過以後啊他就變成鑑定人的資格也更明確了那也"},{"start":7223.49,"end":7245.884,"text":"具有實務的一個經驗那當事人也可以去選任鑑定人那提升那個對等性鑑定人的具名並揭露利益關係鑑定人可接受交誤結問促進公平的一個審理這個都新制的一個重點但問題來了問題就你那個我們現在整個醫療的一個鑑定陷入了一個僵局就制度卡關"},{"start":7247.285,"end":7273.023,"text":"為什麼會這樣子 我相信副秘書長或者這個次長這邊也很清楚啊你醫師要去據名跟接受結問 這個壓力真的是太大你整個鑑定的報告 變成工坊的一個焦點如果說以各位是醫生的話 你可以體會得到公親告別要變屬住啦那我們現在全國的法官跟檢察官我們去送請的案件以後 三百件"},{"start":7273.923,"end":7287.078,"text":"全部都被退件所以我要就較我們司法院這個地方今年在2月跟3月還有去年的11月你們召開了這樣的一個諮詢會議你們到底有沒有具體的改善措施"},{"start":7290.395,"end":7316.124,"text":"謝謝委員那個垂詢因為就是如同委員所剛所講的就是說他新的刑事訴訟法那個規定事實上是有他要追求的那個目的那當然那在那個執行的時候呢現在目前就是最主要的是那個醫審會這個部分就是認為說那個就是要具名這個部分就是有很大的一些那個阻力"},{"start":7316.784,"end":7345.964,"text":"那所以就是目前我們那個司法院有提出那個兩個那個措施一個呢是就是說在他們在接受這個機關鑑定的時候這個具名呢是可以用隱匿的就是用那個隱匿封那個封間的那個方式迷風迷風對用迷風那還有一個就是說他們如果那個到庭來的時候呢事實上也可以就是說用遠距訊問然後不揭露他們的那個姓名的這種那個方式"},{"start":7346.844,"end":7362.346,"text":"或者是甚至於用辨因或是指認式這些那個方式我要問的就是說副院長你認為這樣的一個改進措施真的就有辦法達到目的嗎人之常情如果你是醫生你也不愛啦"},{"start":7364.646,"end":7380.434,"text":"醫界這個圈子就這麼小啦我要去具名那有時候稍微不慎就會影響到這個他自己醫生的一個聲望那傳得很快啊這圈子本來就是小啊你看根據這個我看這個醫事人員的一個這個他們整個一個調查裡面啊10%的人10%的人今天要出庭有這個醫院只有10%那你鑑定報你的鑑定報怎麼太多出庭禮物我們現在多少都沒改還是500塊"},{"start":7394.192,"end":7415.018,"text":"這個部分我們現在有那個研議其實一線型的司法院裡有一些那個辦法呢事實上也可以用就比較高的一個專家諮詢五千到那個一萬那我們現在也在跟現在我們也在跟那個各法院那個那個就是那個不答這一些那個事情啊那以前就是說"},{"start":7416.583,"end":7438.601,"text":"醫事鑑定這個部分呢它是整個那個收費裡面包括的兩個費用一個是實施鑑定 還有一個是那個出庭那我們現在也去宣達說出庭的這個部分呢就先不要收然後到庭的時候呢我們把它提高它的費用直接給就是到庭的那個醫生用這種方式民長你可不可以大膽預測一下你覺得這個措施出來以後能改善多少"},{"start":7439.673,"end":7461.862,"text":"我們現在正在跟他們對話,所以說3月19號的那個諮詢會裡面,那時候有做一些溝通,那有一些那個醫院他們事實上是願意的,對這個問題我是非常擔憂,真的是非常擔憂,這個法律人法律人的思考,醫生也有醫生的思考,本人不愛人"},{"start":7463.527,"end":7484.539,"text":"好人要賣 台灣人在說會嫌棄去給我好心氣 到時候又站在那邊被檢察官解問一下被律師解問一下 法官又問一下弄得不好的話 他的整個圈子就是太小這個還是要不斷的精進啦因為確實要去解決問題啦那另外啊 我最主要還是要對於這整個"},{"start":7485.299,"end":7509.426,"text":"那個精神障礙的犯罪嫌疑人這個部分這個強制處分的部分雖然短短的時間但是也要來糾正幾個問題我們現在鑑定留置的天數最長達兩個月那實務上到底是不是這麼長這個很大的一個疑問那你現行制度你只可以裁定去縮短卻沒有辦法去裁定撤銷那變成鑑定留置就形成一種"},{"start":7510.166,"end":7536.562,"text":"羈押啦 會形成一種羈押那另外呢就是說我們提到的暫行安置啊是在補充羈押的一個不足那避免精神障礙的被告對社會造成的一個風險可是如果你去把它做比較啊你說偵查階段四個月一審十五個月 二審十五個月 三審五個月可是你暫行安置每次六個月捏最長你達到五年捏那你鑑定留置的天數又沒有辦法折抵啊你可能會導致嫌疑人可能被關押更久"},{"start":7537.242,"end":7560.682,"text":"那當然制度的設計就是說防範整個這個被告或者犯罪嫌疑人對這個社會產生的一個衝擊的一個風險可以體會知道這個可是問題如果你稍微你看很多個案你會發現這個對被告來講或者犯罪嫌疑人來講的話會不會對他們人權上也是一種剝奪 請教"},{"start":7563.547,"end":7565.112,"text":"副秘書長你來談這個應該是最有辦法談的"},{"start":7569.195,"end":7596.072,"text":"因為戰刑安置因為它的性質上是屬於保安處分當然它屬於保安處分可是那個是一個補充性尤其是戰刑安置的部分你的前端跟後端其實這個因為時間的問題不能繼續要問下去我們這個司法精神醫院的部分你們建制什麼時候完成還有很多成效的問題這個都是整套啦但是我今天特別提出來就是說"},{"start":7597.236,"end":7602.835,"text":"真的是有一些個案聽起來也都很沒有道理啦很沒有道理這個"},{"start":7604.71,"end":7632.221,"text":"真正的刑期沒有那麼長只因為這個前面我們為了整個防範的社會風險又沒有人敢說他不對可是這個制度的一個設計對人身自由的一個剝奪這個都實質上都已經造成重大的一個衝擊應該必須要再去好好的去做研議看怎麼樣來思考更好的一個制度否則兩個之間你說叫我們怎麼取捨立法院這個地方沒有人敢跟你講說不要這樣做"},{"start":7635.699,"end":7648.895,"text":"事會大眾會罵可是你用個案來看的話你去把它檢視個案我就發現有些個案確實是有很多不合理的地方好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝莊委員那我們現在請翁委員代理主席"},{"start":7672.602,"end":7700.591,"text":"好 接下來有請吳委員請問主席 我想會議詢問一下就是因為剛剛有一點我剛剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突因為主要就是說我想要確認一下我們委員會那委員在質詢的時間內如果問的問題跟本日的議程不一樣那到底可以還是不可以因為之前吳世耀委員他其實曾經就委員在"},{"start":7701.451,"end":7722.291,"text":"他的時間內然後詢問官員跟今日的議程不一樣的題目他當時一直抗議那因為今天他問的東西也跟今日的議程完全不一樣所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分我想說做一個確認那我不知道主席這部分主席有什麼想法"},{"start":7723.286,"end":7745.554,"text":"我想依照過去不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨的委員在主持私委會的相關會議的時候其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言通常不會去干預委員在質詢的時間裡面的任何的發言內容"},{"start":7746.121,"end":7771.092,"text":"好 謝謝 因為剛剛喔因為剛剛我其實我是公正的在主持會議那我認為這個是一個會議的這個怎麼進行的問題這其實跟所謂的政治鬥那個惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性我只是要確認一下而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員而不是特定委員可以 特定委員不行所以我想我剛剛指這個那我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會"},{"start":7773.153,"end":7798.074,"text":"這麼大發脾氣然後連那個髒話都罵出來那我也在這邊補充一下就是說罵人家垃圾在實務的判決是構成公然無路我想說這可能跟其他委員提醒一下不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情罵人垃圾其實是構成公然無路尤其在國會殿堂裡面身為一個國家的中央級的民運代表在那邊大吼大叫拍桌子罵髒話其實"},{"start":7800.323,"end":7819.953,"text":"這個作為就是讓人家去取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方那當然當然社會本來對國會議員的期待這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦但是我還是希望說我至少我會這樣要求我自己我就是在國會開會的時候委員會開會的時候其實"},{"start":7823.413,"end":7842.754,"text":"除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外也要懂得控制情緒尊重別人更不可以說在那邊還罵別人在法律上面實務上面已經判決非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然污辱的事情那如果說可以隨隨便便就這樣的話那台灣"},{"start":7844.075,"end":7851.359,"text":"國會其實會讓世界看笑話這我想說這是我剛剛的會議詢問那我就確認一下在我們的詢問的時間內其實我們就是尊重委員的發言好 謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個這個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員"},{"start":7870.95,"end":7891.057,"text":"他的不當發言是讓這個社會在看笑話立法委員作為社會的一個表率我覺得應該是在任何的場合裡面都要謹慎發言不可以有任何的暴力或是辱罵的這樣的一個行為那麼像我們昨天在立法院的院會裡面也是看到這柯建民總召"},{"start":7892.017,"end":7908.804,"text":"這個暴力這個拿棍子去敲桌子然後甚至還波及到還傷害到了這個徐曉新委員其實這些都是非常不當的言行那我們希望我們未來在市委會的會議的場合裡面呢都能夠大家能夠尊重"},{"start":7910.084,"end":7933.096,"text":"我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告就像民進黨最喜歡說最近對於那個中配那個雅雅案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣言論免責權也不是毫無限制你不能動不動對人家罵髒話像剛罵我垃圾我是覺得我在那邊說我不會去提告啦因為"},{"start":7934.534,"end":7950.051,"text":"因為你自己是不是個垃圾自己心裡很清楚那你罵別人垃圾到底誰是垃圾我想說就算了我就我不會去提告好謝謝好那我們麻煩司法院法務部以及刑事局委員好是謝謝"},{"start":7959.264,"end":7970.485,"text":"好 謝謝三位我想說在座我以前的長官還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位"},{"start":7972.679,"end":8001.468,"text":"那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯"},{"start":8002.028,"end":8022.562,"text":"他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是實務界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就甲官保留的這個甲官許可書要"},{"start":8023.883,"end":8038.102,"text":"就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人"},{"start":8041.945,"end":8059.595,"text":"這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書"},{"start":8060.675,"end":8075.041,"text":"那還有這103條執行羈押的押票這我們事務上最常做的就是這個押票那還有203條之二的執行留置鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置票你們目的是什麼要送達的目的是什麼"},{"start":8077.4,"end":8097.798,"text":"因為這是讓受採取人呢他可以真正的就是說收到這一份那個書那從這邊來開始就是作為那個 夫妮那我想我聽懂的話就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛是明確的救濟時間我想說司法院是這個理由但是呢我想我請教一下副局長"},{"start":8098.959,"end":8114.227,"text":"實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行因為法務部跟我看了一下行政院跟市長院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方那警察在執行上面有沒有困難如果說每一份產料書都要送達執行機關跟當事人跟委員報告"},{"start":8115.307,"end":8142.831,"text":"警察執行不是說有困難在很多包括我們的搜索扣押包括鑑定許可書事實上我們去都是出示我們這些搜索票或是許可書讓他確認這樣的程序那我覺得警方在執行的時候如果能夠有一致的標準對於警察基層尤其是派出所的員警如果在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆而且這個現在已經限縮到他已經是"},{"start":8143.511,"end":8163.829,"text":"逮捕到案的人而且有相當理由等等這些我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微已經比較輕微了這跟這個壓票啦或怎麼樣我相信他的侵害權是不太一樣那我想就是說我先跟三位報告一下我自己的實務經驗在第一線因為我為錢帶隊搜索非常多次"},{"start":8165.67,"end":8194.529,"text":"就很多人知道我以前曾經帶隊搜索被開過槍那還好沒打到我我要講的是第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實是有一個差距那當然當事人是不是可以提醒救濟這個起算時間點我們也要予以重視但是呢是不是檢察官其實他告知要採尿其實這個時間點就可以起算了而不需要說明確要收到那個許可書不以收到許可書那個時間點"},{"start":8196.191,"end":8216.626,"text":"他才能夠保障他的救濟的起算時間其實檢察官做這個處分的時候他當時聽到了這個也是算是起算這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎所以這個是我提出來因為司法院的意思是說這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點當然在食物運作上面我自己的食物經驗其實"},{"start":8217.887,"end":8239.16,"text":"你要另外再要求那個警察機關再去做一個這個動作可能是多此一舉因為對於這個處分告訴當事人這個時間點是可以確定的譬如說筆錄可以確定譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達"},{"start":8240.32,"end":8266.552,"text":"這會增加很多行政成本增加很多郵遞的費用以及增加那個當事人將來的一些就是他可能救濟上面一些問題我覺得不一定說一定是好的所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通市長我補充一點就是說這個送交這個要給執行機關跟受採尿的人的話這個要件一旦放進去可是跟前面的205之一條件是不一樣"},{"start":8267.432,"end":8285.961,"text":"第一線的警察如果弄混的時候那將來這一個沒有送交簽名這個動作沒有送交這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的地方弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性的材料會被懷疑有證據能力的問題這個我是我們擔心的"},{"start":8287.402,"end":8300.532,"text":"所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生"},{"start":8302.313,"end":8325.487,"text":"因為我自己看完之後我也覺得這個沒有必要而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間一定很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎那我想說行事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議過可以再討論這個問題"},{"start":8328.539,"end":8352.447,"text":"跟委員報告 司法院這部分是開放的就是我們會多聽從那個大家的意見更何況我們今天他是對於非侵入式的採尿如果侵入式當然我們可能意見就會比較多非侵入式的這個採尿其實而且是當事人自己排尿的有沒有必要乘以保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行我想是這個我們可以"},{"start":8353.027,"end":8375.354,"text":"我們今天任何一個法律的立出來是要對國家社會有貢獻這才有意義而不是無限上綱的那個權力保障這是我個人的前見好那我在這部分我想麻煩法務部也能夠一個禮拜內給我一個演繹就是有關這個部分好謝謝法務部那我再請教一下司法院那司法院這軍事審判那個"},{"start":8376.694,"end":8387.743,"text":"最近一直在吵這軍審判的問題啦那我想請問一下今天排審的法案之所以要修法我們也是為了提升正當法律程序對不對今天的議案"},{"start":8389.414,"end":8404.992,"text":"沒問題嘛當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候其實我想對他的程序保障最重要的最重要就是我們要讓他在一個正當程序保障之下來接受訴訟來進行訴訟這個很重要嘛所以"},{"start":8409.898,"end":8432.085,"text":"我們先告訴國人一件事情今天軍人犯罪的話那是不是他還是實體法部分適用軍事審判法程序上面改用刑事訴訟法現在是這樣對不對那你知不知道當初廢除我們暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":8434.957,"end":8452.662,"text":"這個部分是在那個民國102年的時候呢可能就是國人就是大家對於就是說軍事審判的部分對於那個正當程序的要求是不是能夠那個達到這個部分大家有一些檢討就是因為當時我們覺得我們我國的軍事審判他的程序保障的嚴謹度"},{"start":8454.002,"end":8471.969,"text":"是低於刑訴送法我想這個是沒有爭議的那這個也就是這個原因所以當年民進黨以及當年非常多的國人他認為說我們軍審辦法先暫停適用非暫時我們就是讓他受到普通法院的那個程序保障"},{"start":8472.589,"end":8488.115,"text":"也就是因為這個原因所以有非常多的案子就是我記得好像是反滲透法類的啦還是這類的案子好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來很久了嘛所以我認為就是司法審判"},{"start":8489.235,"end":8509.512,"text":"普通法院的司法審判其實他的要求嚴謹度是很高所以他不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了那因為他的嚴謹度要求很高其實對當事人是一個保障啦那我個人是覺得說這些軍人也是大家的小孩而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已也是國人的小孩啊"},{"start":8509.972,"end":8527.879,"text":"那我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障到底錯在哪裡為什麼我們要走回頭路這是我個人的意見那當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個表達意見所以我想說我的認為就是為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的"},{"start":8529.71,"end":8557.105,"text":"司法程序要走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序更何況當年改的就是強力主張的就是現在的執政黨 民進黨而且現在又是民進黨希望把它改回軍事審判這個我想也要讓國人知道這個是蠻莫名其妙的而且對國家到底它的好處在哪裡其實我也想不通啦那我再請教一下那現在法院裡面是不是有設那個國安軍事專業案件的專股"},{"start":8559.005,"end":8587.721,"text":"有設專股或是專庭每個法院都有設嗎每個法院都有設好那我現在還是一個邏輯就是說目前有立法委員批評說這些法官不夠專業那我想如果我是不同說一輩子從事審理審判案件的法官為什麼對於審理案件是不專業我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業"},{"start":8590.084,"end":8599.28,"text":"我想說對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉用這個去批評他不夠專業我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理啦所以我不太認同說"},{"start":8601.553,"end":8629.285,"text":"有些委員的這個說法啦那更何況我覺得普通法院的審判的獨立性是遠高於軍事法院啦這個我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理我想讓國家受到司法官訓練所法官學院出來的這些專業的法官檢察官追訴以及審判這個是保障一個國人最大的程序保障這個是最大的程序保障我想這個才對而不是"},{"start":8630.425,"end":8657.604,"text":"去做一些很奇怪的調整另外就是說 如果在喊說軍人受到滲透那我一個感覺就是說奇怪 阿馬英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透民進黨執政九年就軍隊都被滲透那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼為什麼九年了被滲透的這麼嚴重好 那就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人我們要重判該修的也是陸海工軍刑法而不是程序法的軍事審判法"},{"start":8658.365,"end":8663.032,"text":"邏輯也完全錯誤但是現在的政府就會誤導人民一直亂扯亂鬼扯就像剛剛那個次長您回答吳思堯的問題一樣"},{"start":8668.393,"end":8691.212,"text":"你們講說我們認為憲判八有一個東西一自覺需要公投他就跟你扯說我們有沒有廢死我一自覺這個問題我有意見跟我國有無廢死有什麼關係第二個他說我們有執行一個死刑啊那怎麼會叫我國廢除死刑這個更是腦殘這是法盲的人講的話不好意思我剛那句話講錯這是法盲的人講的話因為"},{"start":8695.616,"end":8719.37,"text":"執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決一審二審三審那個叫做判決所以有沒有一致覺是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決這個跟判決確定的案子執行死刑這兩回事嘛怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑所以我國沒有廢除死刑"},{"start":8719.91,"end":8744.821,"text":"這在法律上面的邏輯是不對所以他剛剛說邏輯他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣我想說應該不是說邏輯有瑕疵的問題而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂他自己邏輯搞不清楚事實上這兩個東西是完全不一樣我想各位在場一定聽得懂我在講什麼那有的委員聽不懂就算了我已經我過去一年已經很努力但是我發現努力是對某些人是沒有效果的"},{"start":8745.503,"end":8770.273,"text":"所以次長剛剛你回答那個東西我在那邊聽我覺得這兩個東西無關啦所以我不這麼認同啦那因為廢除死刑與否我們從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除我們是對於所謂的判決中加以自決這個東西我們希望聽取人民的觀念但是有一些無良的政客他們就喜歡帶風向一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊你在公投什麼"},{"start":8771.013,"end":8784.53,"text":"然後就亂扯 而對於一個沒有存在的東西進行公投我覺得這個都在騙人民啦這是現在這些政客們他們的每天的工作目的就是一直在騙人民但我對我自己的要求是不說謊 講實話"},{"start":8786.272,"end":8810.705,"text":"那今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利 我們還是得說實話我不會像有些政客 只為了達到他某些目的 然後就去那邊胡說八道就像他說 他們對外說 昨天什麼晚上開會叫做突襲拜託民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出要會議要延長到晚上12點然後如果是被突襲的話 還會有幾個人拿著那個牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎還有時間去準備那個牌子 事實上在昨天在吃"},{"start":8811.545,"end":8837.347,"text":"晚餐便當的時候他們都站一排在那裡準備要衝進來我們也都看到只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起如果這些造謠說謊政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話那其實是中華民國的悲哀因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊從一路以來從不管是這次談論公投不管是預算的審查等等的外面就是鬼扯蛋胡說八道"},{"start":8838.505,"end":8864.759,"text":"然後連總統各部會首長都在騙人這個真是難以想像啦因為我以前我以前以為是行政機關最多做到美化數據至少說出來不會是說謊但是會到現在譬如說洪森漢部長說那個什麼金貼育兒金貼被刪光結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪然後說不是我是口誤這個社會充斥的這種謊言那這國家該怎麼辦"},{"start":8867.661,"end":8883.31,"text":"這我感覺 好那 回到 不好意思回到剛剛我說的就是有關軍事審判這個部分我還是必須這樣講因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩那這是我們的小孩也是我們的國人你今天讓他受到更完整的"},{"start":8884.266,"end":8904.902,"text":"成績保障錯在哪裡那不要什麼東西都為了選票把意識形態拉進來其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫那最後一個小東西就那個行事局跟司導業先回去最後一個想讓你們不好意思耽誤大家時間就是"},{"start":8906.363,"end":8935.231,"text":"次長 你也是檢察官出身 我也是檢察官出身嘛那次長 以前就是我們的長官 我們都非常的尊重 尊敬次長這個北檢 這次3月12號的北檢新聞稿今年3月12號跟10月22號談論有關就是一位檢察官到醫院就訓審訊被告這件事情那我想請教一下 當然第一個我前提先說這個案子已經起訴法院審理中"},{"start":8935.951,"end":8959.943,"text":"所以法務部的檢察官現在不是懲辦的人所以不要再像上一次開會的時候有某幾個立委在那邊喊說干涉個案怎麼可以詢問個案一個已經起訴的案件不是法務部現在在懲辦中了那跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決"},{"start":8961.294,"end":8977.862,"text":"不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身份怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案在那邊大呼小叫我覺得這個水準也很不夠也是一個法盲所以我這邊請教一下所以當天這個林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問還是去視察那過去過去"},{"start":8982.622,"end":8998.596,"text":"五年內到底有多少檢察官是去視察那個視察醫院我想請教一下次長113年10月11號這一次是有詢問也有做筆錄那113年10月14號這一次是視察那兩次呢編護人都在場"},{"start":9010.033,"end":9026.402,"text":"沒有 辯護人在場我沒有意見啦對那我的意思是說好 那以11號這次來說好了那你還沒有回答我第二個問題請問一下過去五年全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院而且有進行視察的程序這一個數字看守什麼醫院"},{"start":9035.338,"end":9054.607,"text":"那看守所的醫院沒有不是看守所 不要跟我講看守所然後這個醫院的部分沒有對 那不要說過去五年啦過去二十年啦我跟你講 我跟上報告可能我財疏血淺但我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡面我從來沒做過 也沒聽過有同仁去"},{"start":9056.105,"end":9083.257,"text":"醫院 正規的醫院去做視察場所的這個視察動作視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合這個在押的被告他在那邊會不會受到人格人性尊嚴上面的侵害嘛所以兩個是不一樣的東西啊那你混在一起講我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾的糾紛就是這裡那這每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重"},{"start":9083.897,"end":9101.295,"text":"所以我想請問過去20年有人這麼做嗎醫院視察的部分沒有對 所以這就是我講的我再三講我過去20年沒有這樣的例子過那你們不要跟我們談說什麼看守所等等的那個視察那個是日常在做"},{"start":9102.623,"end":9126.079,"text":"視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家"},{"start":9127.472,"end":9152.013,"text":"而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分"},{"start":9153.535,"end":9177.942,"text":"亂做 我覺得這是不對的好不好 就是次長這部分要麻煩你們你們一定要做到那如果是去詢問 詢問有沒有全程錄音錄影這個也必須要求全國的檢察官一定要做到我今天給你們看 不好意思最後30秒一個Trace上面的檢察官自己寫的他認為就訊這個就是日常今天為什麼會發生這種事情 就是因為有"},{"start":9179.022,"end":9205.773,"text":"有檢察官濫用就訊的這個作為然後導致今天全國的檢察官包括司法受到人民的不信任所以法務部真的要出來處理這件事情你不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查我不去論他有沒有政治目的我都不去論而是檢察官你在辦案成功雖然會有成就感但你不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權"},{"start":9207.134,"end":9217.541,"text":"這是完全不對的那這個部分再麻煩這個是罪上面其他檢察官寫的那更不要講檢察官論壇裡面有非常多檢察官批評這件事不好意思耽誤大家時間 謝謝次長下一位 蔡益瑜委員 蔡益瑜委員 蔡益瑜委員好 接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":9240.003,"end":9264.22,"text":"主席有請司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長謝謝委員好副秘書長上週已經提出了新的大法官名單對不對是好那想請問您副秘書長你覺得這份名單打幾分有關於大法官的審查我們尊重立法院的職權"},{"start":9265.869,"end":9291.747,"text":"對 好 我知道你不會給分啦但是外界似乎給他的分數並不高我先跟這個副秘書長說這份名單提出之後連法界都會有覺得很多的不滿跟質疑那第一個提出質疑的就是全國律師聯合會他認為是甚感遺憾 嫌認不妥你知道原因是什麼嗎為什麼律師聯合會認為是"},{"start":9295.191,"end":9315.49,"text":"甚感遺憾這個部分我們就不變評論了我是講事實問題你總要知道目前關於司法狀況的現在的事實狀況我不是問你評論我只是說律師聯合會為什麼認為是不妥你總看新聞有看過這新聞吧有有有對啊他為什麼覺得不妥"},{"start":9316.161,"end":9339.58,"text":"嗯 權律會的觀點是認為說這是由檢察官 就是提名的一位檢察官來當司法院院長對啊 這原因一啦其他最重要的是他認為提名的都是檢察官 法官跟學者獨缺律師那事實上依照過去我們確實大法官的組成來講的話這個學者 法官"},{"start":9340.982,"end":9355.303,"text":"檢察官 律師都是可能會被提名的大法官人選嘛 對不對所以它中間其實是在這個組成的部分它有它的橫評的部分那顯然這一次我覺得賴清德總統提名的這個大法官的名單"},{"start":9356.417,"end":9381.897,"text":"在第一個部分就產生一個失衡那全立會也提到歷來都有學養俱佳的律師獲得大法官提名並擔任大法官職務但這次大法官提名顯然未考量律師於司法制度之重要性及維繫自由民主憲政秩序扮演的角色所以他對此甚感遺憾那這次我覺得是司法院也好或是我這邊也呼籲我們賴清德總統"},{"start":9383.018,"end":9410.913,"text":"要把我們這個律師界的聲音聽進去這第一個我認為他提名這一次的大法官非常嚴重的一個我們講憲法上的瑕疵就是憲政提名上的瑕疵他沒有思考到人選的橫平性那第二個我想請教一下副秘書長你知道上一次大法官審查台灣法學會有推薦誰過來記得嗎台灣法學會有推薦大法官的人選有提名 推薦誰"},{"start":9414.584,"end":9432.102,"text":"這個也是事實問題 沒有問題評價 有人知道嗎都不知道啊 連推薦單位是誰都不知道劉靜儀教授啦 他就是台灣法學會推薦的 那劉靜儀教授過了沒有過了沒有"},{"start":9435.416,"end":9450.491,"text":"這個大家都知道的大家都知道我也想從你嘴巴聽到大家的知道跟你的知道一不一樣過了沒有沒有過為什麼沒過為什麼沒過國民黨沒有投同意啦民眾黨投同意啦但是民進黨怎麼樣"},{"start":9452.984,"end":9469.705,"text":"你這樣投反對啊那自己提名自己否決的做法其實也讓法學界其實相當感冒所以我剛剛前面是講律師界律師界對這份名單有意見我現在是要講法學界所以讓很多次任的學界人士不願意被提名"},{"start":9470.706,"end":9498.518,"text":"那劉靜儀教授兩天前他在臉書上說他說這次有詢問台灣法學會啊有沒有要推薦大法官幾乎大法官在提名的時候台灣法學會經常都會推薦啦對不對 沒錯吧那結果說只有一位資深學界理監事問了一個他說這個問題很蠢也沒有得到任何回應於是呢大家一路沉默到推薦時間截止也沒有任何會員來要求推薦"},{"start":9500.796,"end":9513.984,"text":"你搞到法學界,台灣法學會過去經常推薦大法官他們也心寒,乾脆不推薦了你知道為什麼嗎?副院長你知道為什麼嗎?因為劉靜儀教授這個提名的過程當中就發現說他不受尊重啊"},{"start":9525.417,"end":9547.676,"text":"破壞大法官提名審查的公正跟權威性的是誰就是帶頭反對劉靜儀的柯建銘啊明明齁 其實我們在做大法官審查當然我非常關注大法官對於所謂的死刑是否廢除的態度嘛因為這是全民關心的我當然知道大法官的這個態度是怎麼樣這應該沒問題吧 對不對"},{"start":9550.214,"end":9574.861,"text":"關心大法官他對於所謂重大刑事政策的態度應該是我們在審查的時候應該要來了解的嘛 對不對所以嘛 好那換言之其實應該是 比方說針對司法人權價值做專業審查或是針對他過去一些重大的一些不管是人權主張 刑事政策主張我們來做審查嘛可是結果我們親愛的民進黨總召柯建民"},{"start":9577.185,"end":9601.293,"text":"他只講了一個理由反對劉靜儀 你記得是什麼理由嗎 只有一個理由反對劉靜儀這也是事實問題啦 但不為難你 我就這樣講出口也很為難你竟然是劉靜儀罵過民進黨 喔 天啊我想請問一下 副委員 這個人總能回答 大法官提名的積極資格是什麼積極資格是什麼 他必須具備什麼資格"},{"start":9604.948,"end":9630.777,"text":"這個法律法律有積極資格啊有啊就是他的經歷上對啊對啊積極的那個經歷對資格就是在那個相關你再熟悉一點啦我告訴你啦我也不是叫你背法條但我覺得法律有一個瑕疵它少了一個積極資格它列很多積極資格啊對不對要必須擔任過什麼擔任過什麼嘛積極資格嘛對不對"},{"start":9633.542,"end":9659.706,"text":"他列了一個最重要的積極資格啊這個可能趕快要修法還是修憲不管啦不可以罵民進黨積極資格是大法官不可以罵民進黨這就是民進黨提名大法官的積極資格趕快修法列進去我跟副民進黨坦白講真的是非常難看啦劉靜儀這一個民進黨的反對理由就一個他罵過民進黨還甚至喔"},{"start":9663.632,"end":9689.166,"text":"我們柯建民說要祭出黨祭處分如果敢投流禁也要黨祭處分這是最惡劣的人事審查所以這是為什麼今天你看台灣法學會講白了也寒心啊律師界不滿意法學會教授法學會也寒心第二個賴清德提名的一個名單的一個嚴重問題"},{"start":9692.52,"end":9704.964,"text":"然後接下來還有一個問題,您在法界的履歷很完整,我看過了在你擔任法官生涯當中,你認為法官跟檢察官的工作是一樣嗎?各自扮演的角色是什麼?一個是直資審判,一個是偵查一個負責刑事偵查,一個是審判案件"},{"start":9714.785,"end":9741.622,"text":"兩者內容跟管轄機關其實都有相當的差別啦對不對 職權也有相當的差別 沒錯吧重心也不太一樣可是呢 這份大法官名單司法院正副院長提名的尤其是院長提名的是台灣高等檢察署主任檢察官蔡秋明那我想請問 你有沒有印象有檢查系統背景的人出任司法院院長"},{"start":9743.491,"end":9771.38,"text":"目前是沒有沒有嘛我們賴清德提名的第一個那你覺得基層法官會怎麼想你也當過法官你覺得這樣設計是正確的嗎這個我沒有辦法替基層法官來回答非常好我也知道你不會回答我要告訴我們副秘書長這是他第三個瑕疵你要去想想看今天大法官的核心任務是什麼請問副秘書長"},{"start":9775.996,"end":9803.993,"text":"市縣也就是把那個憲法所那個保障那個價值呢可以透過這些市縣中的保障出來保障價值很多啦 民主憲政嘛 人權保護嘛然後包括說機關權限的這個所謂的一個釐清嘛 對不對我跟你講 其實他偏重的過去為什麼今天司法院的這個院長他鮮少有所謂的檢察官背景不是瞧不起檢察官 這邊這邊講"},{"start":9805.805,"end":9828.12,"text":"出身是因為大法官會議來自於司法院的整個設計它非常偏重於一塊叫人權保障對不對大法官不是犯罪偵查機關啦沒錯吧不是吧大法官不是犯罪偵查機關嘛對不對這個總回答得出來吧 秘書長是對嘛"},{"start":9829.221,"end":9848.418,"text":"所以因此你把最重要司法院院長我不是說檢察官不好檢察官兢兢業業在前線打擊犯罪我們都很尊重啊但是放在大法官放在司法院尤其是司法院院長這個職務上你就會讓很多人confuse"},{"start":9849.403,"end":9858.635,"text":"就這個設計是對的嗎所以在這邊我真的是鄭重的就是給我們賴清德總統一個勸告而且司法院也可以勸勸他啦"},{"start":9861.172,"end":9884.223,"text":"大法官提名是何其神聖的事情這次提名的思考我先不講人選是不是大人選是不是任他到底很多重大的法的政策的主張包括廢死的主張包括對國會改革的主張這加上人事審查我們都會來關心的那叫做第二層次可抱歉這個名單從第一層次就出現三大瑕疵"},{"start":9886.007,"end":9898.45,"text":"所以我說實在話整個名單的問題這個賴清德總統如果真的是非常在意大法官的提名的話我真的是誠懇的建議啦趕快另外把它收回去重新提一份"},{"start":9899.466,"end":9927.479,"text":"讓大家至少法界安心學界安心對不對也不要弄到說今天人權保障或是說其他我們覺得說司法院院長會產生一個你的整個提名的邏輯不對的這個疑慮嘛所以這次我真的也是因為今天我們司法院代表在我也是真的拜託啦誠心的勸告跟建議賴清德總統真的是太不太不認真了啦怎麼會還不講人選四任性"},{"start":9928.564,"end":9951.904,"text":"你光提名人的名單的結構就一塌糊塗這個真的是太噁心了謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝柏委員那我們現在先宣告因為會議進行到現在都沒有休息那我先做會議的程序宣告稍後在楊委員 瓊英詢問完畢以後我們休息五分鐘我們現在請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":9963.962,"end":9972.842,"text":"謝謝主席 楊秋雲發言我們一併邀請司法院 法務部跟警政署好 麻煩三位上台"},{"start":9977.612,"end":9996.89,"text":"針對我們今天修法的主題在我們憲法第114年的憲判制第16號判決當中大法官認定刑事訴訟法第205條之二的規定有抵觸憲法保障資訊隱私權以及免於身心受害"},{"start":9997.751,"end":10013.926,"text":"的身體權的情況因此判定了刑事訴訟法有關強制採尿的規定是違憲的那麼因此相關機關單位呢必須要修法以符合憲法的規定那所以在這種情況之下在我們看到宣判違憲"},{"start":10015.347,"end":10042.001,"text":"到修法這段時間呢那麼執行的方式大概以非侵入性的方式採取尿液需要報請檢察官合法鑑定許可書後才能夠執行但是如果情況緊迫的時候呢可以依照規定以非侵入性方式來採取尿液但應以採尿後的24小時內呢呈報該這個管的檢察官來許可那檢察官如果認為不應"},{"start":10043.402,"end":10058.581,"text":"許可者應於三日內來撤銷受檢查者於受採尿液後十天之內申請該管法院來撤銷所以請教三位在這一次的修法是將上述的規範要落法"},{"start":10060.843,"end":10072.594,"text":"所以入法之後要入法所以請教司法院還有我們的警政單位那麼以及法務部在過去兩年多的執行情況究竟為何那麼對於我們整個在實務上的檢警辦案的影響是什麼因為警察機關跟法務部之間"},{"start":10082.063,"end":10092.68,"text":"的一個溝通聯繫它是否有即時因為我們認知到保障人權以及維護治安的穩定跟讓檢警辦案的一個狀態它都必須採取到一個平衡點請做說明"},{"start":10100.23,"end":10122.475,"text":"像那個委員報告齁因為在那個1111那個宪判第16號呢他在判決中其實就這個問題就已經有處理了齁就是說在那個修法之前呢從這個大法官的這個判決公告之後呢就要依這個判決他所所以這兩年多就是照這個來執行嗎是是是好那麼法務部呢"},{"start":10125.457,"end":10151.116,"text":"這兩年來我們執行就是申請檢察官許可的有一萬兩千兩百五十八件那緊急採尿以後報許可的有六千五百七十八件所以等於一半嘛對 一半目前執行是這樣是一半 報警檢察官許可那在最後是一半六千多件 原因呢這個可能要第一線執行的好 來 請再說明"},{"start":10152.817,"end":10171.818,"text":"委員好,那個111年,憲判16號完了以後,警政署就已經訂出一個SOP,函令各全國警察機關,按照我們憲判16號來執行也就是說,如果他同意,那同意,告訴他對拒絕,他同意了以後,就直接用非侵入性的來採尿"},{"start":10172.719,"end":10187.994,"text":"那如果不同意的話,我們就報警檢察官,全席可輸那如果說因為檢警共用大概我們目前在分配雖然24小時,但我們檢警共用16小時如果他真的不願意,然後時間又緊迫的話那我們就移情到檢察官,讓檢察官回到依他的職權來採尿"},{"start":10189.535,"end":10209.055,"text":"依照目前的SOP流程 今天主要是討論怎麼樣的路法所以我們也希望 剛剛我強調了在治安的方面的穩定性以及在執行的方面能夠達到一個平衡點接下來本席要請教上市煙彈 也就是毒品問題 我們來討論司法院請先回座"},{"start":10212.518,"end":10230.887,"text":"那這個喪屍煙彈依托彌子持續在國內來盛行去年政府也將它列為二級毒品但是現在的這個新型毒品我一直猖獗所以包括了鎮丙、帕子"},{"start":10231.667,"end":10254.997,"text":"也已經在流通那企圖要來規避整個法制的法律的一個制裁當然在上個月法務部也緊急召開了審議委員會經過了專家的評估也確認要認為它是高度成癮性與社會的危礙性有火速的決議要列為二級毒品據聞近期要正式公告 是嗎已經公告了什麼時候公告的"},{"start":10262.276,"end":10286.492,"text":"3月24號就前幾天公告那請問市長我們現在面對這些毒販不斷地改版這些新鮮的毒品那我們要怎麼樣應對呢尤其警政署這邊毒物快篩器以及光譜儀這些設備是不是能夠篩選出新的這些毒品它應對夠不夠"},{"start":10287.913,"end":10297.622,"text":"因為你必須要 設備要充足因為它不斷地在熱血液 至少你已經列入二級毒品的部分能不能篩檢出配套措施夠不夠 請做說明"},{"start":10301.213,"end":10327.914,"text":"跟委員報告這個確實新興毒品的試劑對於各個鑑識實驗室來講都是一種挑戰那從去年開始上市驗斷那我們兩個同仁因為被吸毒者撞死了以後然後我們去研究他的盛行率所以我們把從三級提升到二級那證明帕子的部分也把它列入公告了依據在4月3號大概就會會變成二級毒品那這個部分我想"},{"start":10329.175,"end":10348.653,"text":"我們昨天才通令各全國警察機關包括刑大還有鑑識單位到我們警政署來接受整個試劑的確認測試我們去年大概在警政署的部分我們大概有編訂了300多萬去做快篩試劑但是新興毒品它必須要有專業性選擇性也就是說"},{"start":10351.195,"end":10365.766,"text":"我們要盡量減少它的偽陽性因為這是初篩而已初篩而已剛剛委員講的這些除了初篩試劑還有我們像我們實驗室裡面的機器MAS事實上我們都有在編列預算那逐步的那當然現在能量能除了靠公家機關以外"},{"start":10366.426,"end":10387.619,"text":"可能還是沒辦法去負荷這樣的一個鑑定的能量因為我們因為不管是安慰他命 依托彌子等等這些我們都有設定專案的掃蕩所以我們最近才做第12波的案期專案在我們高檢署的指揮底下去執行那因為掃蕩了以後就會有大量毒品進來那就很多的一些鑑定的量能"},{"start":10387.939,"end":10395.385,"text":"必須要監聽我們高監署也在協助看其他的我們根據全國認證基金會TAF裡面的認證實驗室裡面這些能夠協助我們全國的警察機關因為3月24號也將這個正品帕子"},{"start":10406.053,"end":10429.909,"text":"也列為二級低頻那下個月就開始要執行所以本席也就提出我知道大家辛苦但是我們既然有這個政策方向我們就要怎麼樣好好的能夠去應對那麼你們應該好好去盤點不管是民間的基金會但大家好好能夠讓我們的社會治安能夠更加的穩定謝謝謝謝主委指導好 謝謝楊委員那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10743.451,"end":10765.274,"text":"我們繼續開會好下一位請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員王洪威委員王洪威委員王洪威委員好那我們接下來請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":10771.77,"end":10797.183,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請司法院跟法務部 麻煩司法院法務部委員您好好 兩位好 午安 委員好我想要就 我等一下可能會提的是個案但是我希望從通案的部分我們來討論好不好 我們不要進入個案但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例第一個例子指的是 這個新聞是2025年3月的"},{"start":10797.563,"end":10823.335,"text":"台灣退役軍官再報泄密案那當時其實在相關的案件調查當中就有很多人提醒整個國安系統說過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響會受到滲透 會受到吸收但是他們發現在越來越多的案例當中其實觸角都已經延伸到第一階的軍官那甚至在這個案例當中還有相關的研究員指出說"},{"start":10824.315,"end":10848.751,"text":"不僅到低階的軍官甚至呢連金流的方法都變得多元了所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展那另外國人對這件事情的警覺性也很低所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂甚至呢曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣新站處的處長已經退休了他都說從2024年看2024年的統計共諜案的他說數量驚人"},{"start":10854.375,"end":10878.679,"text":"那我們知道目前他在刑法上他有相關的論述空間可是他認為台灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透然後事件層出不窮的原因有一個原因是來自於台灣司法的體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕缺乏嚴刑峻罰以產生嚇阻效果那我當然只是從2025年報導出來這個案例我們再看下一張"},{"start":10882.455,"end":10885.916,"text":"另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題"},{"start":10909.881,"end":10924.555,"text":"第二個相關的證據扣合的不是那麼緊密所以呢我們在做後續的判決的時候可能每一個法官的想像或者是檢察官的想像的論述不大一樣那我們怎麼看後續未來修法的可能性好 請回答 謝謝"},{"start":10929.412,"end":10958.712,"text":"先跟委員報告就是說那個國家安全法他在那個108年的時候他有個修法那確實就是在修法之前的時候呢他的法定刑並不重可是在修法之後呢他有強化了規範的密度那相對的這些罪行也有提高了他那個法定的刑度那像那個大家所關注的這一個為大陸地區發展組織罪呢他以前修法之前的時候法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":10959.752,"end":10979.807,"text":"就是最高判五年 是可是修法之後呢他提升到了那個七年以上的那個有期徒刑那所以就是說在那個修法之後就是我們目前就是我們司法院所有的這些那個判決的那個當中呢修法之後這些刑度相對都已經提高很多了"},{"start":10980.607,"end":10988.151,"text":"可是你覺得這個相對提高的這個狀態可以符合我們目前台灣所遭遇到這個所謂共諜數量驚人的這個現況嗎就您個人法務上的見解"},{"start":10992.711,"end":11017.53,"text":"我覺得這個部分確實就是國安他有他的那個專業性那所以這個部分也是我們司法院就是我們也一直在那個因應的也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢說那我們司法院做了哪一些那個措施就是那我們現在就是一直不斷的加強就是說那個法官在那個國安軍事專庭的這個法官他們要充實他們的那個專業性"},{"start":11018.991,"end":11042.707,"text":"他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的就好像我們在看很多兒少議題的時候我們發現身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像所以如同剛剛您說的相關的人在做出相關的裁處的時候是不是有相關的敏感度我認為這件事情我們應該要更積極的去面對跟做後續的"},{"start":11044.348,"end":11066.464,"text":"改進 對嗎好那這個部分呢我們就先討論到這邊因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作我們也很希望看到當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人它其實危害到台灣的國安系統危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候我都認為我們身為立法委員或者是你們行政機關應該要積極的面對好那我們來看下一個問題昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚 對嗎好"},{"start":11072.788,"end":11093.986,"text":"我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀現在不管是民粹或者是不同的政黨的委員或者是不同的等級的民意代表甚至一般的網紅很多人都會對言論自由提出看法我個人認為我們例如說我有行動自由可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席你的家然後說我要住進你家這樣"},{"start":11094.887,"end":11112.644,"text":"或者是我有行動自由但是我看誰不高興我就打他一巴掌那言論自由這件事情在台灣我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由我可不可以問一下在相關的法規範下你們怎麼看言論自由你們怎麼看這次這個案件法務部 謝謝"},{"start":11119.222,"end":11147.042,"text":"委員好我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權但是也不是無限上綱那在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障呢我們還是會用法律來加以限制那現在目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或善惑他能內亂、暴動內患或者是善惑犯罪其實都有處罰的規定那在最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗這些也都會有相關的刑責"},{"start":11147.682,"end":11168.779,"text":"所以這種考量之下是會用法律加以規範的好 謝謝你的回答 謝謝你特別提到刑法因為這一次我們確實台灣內政部只對雅雅做出行政處分就是請她 因為她是一親她並不是台灣的公民 也不是台灣的國民所以我們只有請她離境我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分但是我非常謝謝法務部剛剛提到刑法的部分"},{"start":11169.139,"end":11194.19,"text":"我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒對於相關言論自由定義的提醒這個釐清我認為非常的重要謝謝您的回答我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題就是關於1085條這件事情我知道我們在去年前年應該有公告要修正對嗎但是後來沒有相關的進度我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境"},{"start":11196.689,"end":11217.762,"text":"1085條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情我們是不是現在要確定一下進度主席時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎先暫停先暫停 暫停好 讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":11220.236,"end":11223.739,"text":"所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎就是這個修法的方向你們可不可以告訴確切的唸出來你們修法條文的內容"},{"start":11243.053,"end":11256.745,"text":"1085條 父母保護及教養未成年子女 應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女之人格 不得對子女為身心暴力行為就是最後這一句 不得為子女為身心暴力之行為"},{"start":11257.105,"end":11277.567,"text":"所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟一些公民團體出來開記者會說他們如果沒有打小孩的權利他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了當時我在教育法委員會我們就告訴教育部說長期以來教育部必須要協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊那如果你們已經送進立法院了那是不是後續法務"},{"start":11279.129,"end":11295.66,"text":"這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論協助家長協助社區協助學校讓大人們學會好好的對待小孩的方法而不是因為收了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關"},{"start":11296.561,"end":11298.762,"text":"如果說因為宣導的話教育部衛福部如果有需要我們保護部到場或者是協助我們一定會樂意的配合"},{"start":11326.536,"end":11342.704,"text":"他們一定需要啦那我們一定會到場配合因為你們修這個法其實最頭痛的應該是教育部因為教育部他們有中層教育師他們長期必須要做家庭教育那甚至在學校裡面那我想問一下在學校裡面也適用於這一條嗎在學校裡面"},{"start":11343.984,"end":11365.887,"text":"因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對老師沒有這個權利為什麼我要談這件事情因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有點不能理解但可能對家長來說他可能要找一個出口他可能就會去告訴學校老師說現在法律說我不能打小孩那不然小孩如果在學校很多不好管教的老師就交給你打這樣子"},{"start":11367.629,"end":11383.365,"text":"大家都笑了嘛所以大家都認同這個是很有可能發生的社會現象喔你把1085條這個懲戒權只有付我知道我知道老師沒有老師絕對沒有懲戒權沒錯沒錯所以我是要拜託法務部我們之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題因為我在家庭教育做超過十幾年"},{"start":11384.406,"end":11402.909,"text":"我知道一定會有這個困境所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論開跨部會協調會議如何在你們這個相關修法的配套後有沒有相關的資源相關的可能性去跟教育部討論開啟啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長"},{"start":11403.61,"end":11432.278,"text":"是好那如果你們開跨部會會議有困難是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開是好那最後一個我的主張就很清楚最後一張就是1085的修正絕對是好事希望你們不要退縮但是如何協助教育部協助更多的家長透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標立法委員不能只是要了這個法修了這個法但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好好謝謝法務部謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":11433.97,"end":11450.216,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝陳委員好那今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢10要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員會基本個別委員基本會"},{"start":11451.596,"end":11468.207,"text":"委員王洪威所提書面執行均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆討論事項所列議案報告及詢問完畢決議另定期繼續審查本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16545","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16545","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea5d3f5f5d43d00e8402ea0e8b14a04e907692a6bdb7e2f09f91d21e6a945909a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、繼續審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、繼續審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、繼續審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、繼續審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、繼續審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、繼續審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、繼續審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、繼續審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、繼續審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、繼續審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、繼續審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。十九、繼續審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。【第二十六案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-26T08:31:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-26T16:20:00+08:00","duration":28126,"影片長度":"07:48:46","委員發言時間":"08:31:14 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我們請部長喔有請部長兩位好部長好部長 今年的年初我們嘉義縣有發生馬鈴薯的受災的狀況"},{"start":26.789,"end":48.662,"text":"因為今年底的颱風然後還有今年初的連續降雨導致馬鈴薯出現裂窗腐爛那當然新港鄉是主要的受災地區還有包含溪口等地那新港鄉的種植面積大概是500多公頃那現在是認為說損害率未達20%所以沒有辦法啟動災害的"},{"start":52.56,"end":77.806,"text":"救助可是很多鄉親是在反映喔他說單一作物的種植面積常常達不到救助的門檻所以有一些寧願在風土氣候土壤沒有那麼適合的地方但還是想要種少量的其他作物讓這個作物有點零碎化的狀況出現那沒有辦法發揮出最大的效益經濟效益就沒有辦法出來所以我今天看到部長您的業務報告有提到要徵休"},{"start":78.726,"end":96.816,"text":"农业天然灾害的救助是用天气参数这个东西那这个机制加起来之后如果满足我们天气的参数规定是不是就可以加速这个启动救助或者是免除限开我想确认一下这一个机制能够让损害力的认定的门槛放宽吗"},{"start":99.204,"end":117.079,"text":"我們現在就是積極啟動天氣參數那天氣參數有兩類一類是災害的天氣參數那災害的天氣參數能夠加速公告另外一個是災損的天氣參數那災損的天氣參數你如果達到的話就是不用去現勘"},{"start":119.32,"end":134.808,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們會積極來處理那委員所關心的就是說當一個地區500公頃500公頃以下大概5%500公頃以上是25公頃那這個部分我已經請同仁再去做一些更精細的規劃"},{"start":136.309,"end":156.136,"text":"一部分不一定要用鄉鎮或是縣市因為它用產區的概念也許隔壁的產區它這個縣市可能只有3公頃可是隔壁的產區就鄰近的它是屬於其他鄉鎮的我們是不是有機會把它併成一個產區的概念來處理我想我們有很多的方法是可以做調整"},{"start":156.736,"end":183.446,"text":"但是這個部分可能容許我們同仁花一點時間我想我們朝著就是簡化的方式讓受災的農民得到真正的救助的方式我們來做一個逐步的來調整謝謝部長我剛剛聽到產區來去做調整這個是一個非常正面的回覆那我們是予以肯定因為我們特別講天氣參數的原因是因為現在很多都要我們的稍微年長的農民使用APP來去做一個通報"},{"start":185.367,"end":206.414,"text":"但是這些年長農民可能可以電話來通知公所但是叫他們使用APP真的是有一定的困難所以我們肯定如果未來這個把天氣參數加進去的話那自動來去做一個處置的話那這是一個正面的開示那第二個部分就是你剛剛提到的用產區因為我們從新港到溪口到大連"},{"start":207.014,"end":227.384,"text":"其實基本上他們都可以算是一個產區那我們也是希望說能夠從優來去協助我們這些農民因為他們儘管是很希望我們實際上我們都有去走前天才剛去可是有的時候為了要搶救搶收這個作物等於說這些我們的相關部門來的時候他已經基本上已經被收完所以說"},{"start":227.884,"end":250.02,"text":"比較困難所以說今天不斷有說到我們用這個不管是用天氣參數還是用產區這一個方面我們是給予大大的肯定我們是希望說未來可以來去往這個部分做因為我們不希望說我們農民把它降低單一作物的比例這對我們的農業經濟來講也是一個損耗那再來就是要請教這個部長關於電價調漲補助的部分"},{"start":253.562,"end":271.454,"text":"最近我們嘉義縣的火龍果產區但其實也不是火龍果產區而已那包含畜牧還有這個水質養殖的漁業等等都有反映說他們很擔心電價調漲之後那些需要夜間照明促進開花結果的這些作物會受到影響那我之前也有跟經濟部長"},{"start":272.395,"end":275.678,"text":"有跟他這個質詢的時候有請教他說會跟農業部來討論說怎麼樣來去做一些補貼的方式來去輔助我們滿足我們農民的需求"},{"start":284.517,"end":303.438,"text":"那當然我們知道說在野黨他現在把這個要撥給台電的1000億的這個刪除後看起來電省會會還是會提高電價那這個部分部長我們該怎麼處理有沒有考慮來去追加我們的相關的這個預算來去吸收漲價差額讓我們的農民能夠安心的來去生產"},{"start":304.099,"end":328.651,"text":"我跟委員報告就是針對用電的優惠跟用電的補貼來協助減低農民的負擔這個政策永遠都在而且會持續去做那早期是由台電吸收那後來是由我們的主管機關要編列所以去年那一波的調升我們就編列大概24億多來協助農民去讓農民的電費實際上不漲價差有補貼優惠也繼續存在"},{"start":333.573,"end":346.717,"text":"那這一次的一個電價是不是會調整我不知道但是如果有調整的時候我們還是秉持同樣的一個政策我們會積極的向行政院去爭取額外的經費來協助農民來減低他的一個負擔"},{"start":350.178,"end":369.463,"text":"謝謝部長 朝這個方向來去努力讓我們的農民能夠安心因為賴總統也有說 均衡台灣農民是我們均衡台灣的一個很重要的里程碑也希望部長能夠再多加關心這一個部分所有的政策都是農漁民優先我想我們會遵守政策是農漁民優先感謝 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1234,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時22分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，今年年初我們嘉義縣有發生馬鈴薯受災的狀況，因為去年底的颱風還有今年初的連續降雨，導致馬鈴薯出現裂瘡、腐爛，當然新港鄉是主要的受災地區，還有包含溪口等地。新港鄉的種植面積大概是五百多公頃，現在是認為損害率未達20%，所以沒有辦法啟動災害救助。可是很多鄉親反映，單一作物的種植面積常常達不到救助的門檻，所以有一些人還是寧願在風土、氣候、土壤沒有那麼適合的地方種少量的其他作物，讓作物有一點零碎化的狀況出現，沒有辦法發揮出最大的經濟效益。","我今天看到部長的業務報告有提到，要增修農業天然災害救助適用天氣參數這個東西，這個機制加起來之後，如果滿足天氣的參數規定，是不是就可以加速啟動救助，或者是免除現勘？我想確認一下，這個機制能夠讓損害率認定的門檻放寬嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想要分成兩個部分，我們現在就是積極啟動天氣參數，天氣參數有兩類，一類是災害的天氣參數，災害的天氣參數能夠加速公告；另外一個是災損的天氣參數，災損的天氣參數如果達到的話，就不用去現勘，這個部分我們會積極處理。","委員所關心的是，當一個地區有沒有，500公頃以下大概是5%，500公頃以上是25公頃，這個部分我已經請同仁再去做一些更精細的規劃，不一定要用鄉鎮或縣市，而要用產區的概念，也許隔壁的產區……它這個縣市可能只有3公頃，可是隔壁的產區，就是鄰近的，卻是屬於其他鄉鎮的，我們是不是有機會把它併成一個產區的概念來處理。我想我們有很多的方法可以調整，但是這個部分可能要容許我們同仁花一點時間，我們會朝著簡化的方式，以讓受災農民得到真正救助的方式，我們來逐步地調整。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我剛剛聽到以產區來調整，這是一個非常正面的回復，我們予以肯定。我們特別講天氣參數的原因，是因為現在很多都要稍微年長的農民使用app通報，但是這些年長農民可能可以電話通知公所，但是叫他們使用app真的是有一定的困難。所以我們肯定，如果未來把天氣參數加進去，自動處置的話，這是一個正面的開始。第二個部分就是您剛剛提到的用產區，因為我們從新港到溪口、到大林，基本上它們都可以算是一個產區，我們也希望能夠從優協助這些農民，實際上我們都有去走，前天才剛去，可是有些時候為了要搶收作物，等於相關部門來的時候，基本上已經被收完，所以會比較困難啦！今天部長有提到，我們不管是用天氣參數還是用產區，針對這方面，我們給予大大的肯定，我們希望未來可以往這個部分做，因為我們不希望農民降低單一作物的比例，這對我們的農業經濟來講也是一個損耗。","再來就是要請教部長關於電價調漲補助的部分，最近嘉義縣的火龍果產區，其實也不是火龍果產區而已，包含畜牧、養殖漁業等等都有反映，他們很擔心電價調漲之後，那些需要夜間照明促進開花結果的這些作物會受到影響。我之前質詢經濟部長的時候也有請教他，他說會跟農業部討論怎麼樣做一些補貼的方式，輔助、滿足農民的需求。當然我們知道在野黨現在把要撥給台電的1,000億刪除後，看起來電審會還是會提高電價，這個部分，部長，我們該怎麼處理？有沒有考慮追加相關預算吸收漲價差額，讓我們的農民能夠安心生產？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，針對用電的優惠跟用電的補貼，協助、減低農民的負擔，這個政策永遠都在，而且會持續去做。早期是由台電吸收，後來是由我們主管機關編列，去年那一波調升，我們就編列將近二十四億多協助農民，讓農民的電費實際上不漲，價差有補貼，優惠也繼續存在。這一次的電價是不是會調整，我不知道，但是如果有調整的時候，我們還是秉持同樣的政策，積極地向行政院爭取額外的經費，協助農民減低他們的負擔。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長朝這個方向努力，讓我們的農民能夠安心，因為賴總統也有說均衡臺灣，農民是我們均衡臺灣一個很重要的里程碑，也希望部長能夠再多加關心這個部分。"],["陳部長駿季：我們院長也是說所有的政策都是農漁民優先，這個我們會遵守。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，政策是農漁民優先，感謝！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢。","下一位請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員不在。","現在登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員王美惠、林德福所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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請陳部長部長這一次的總預算的審查 農業部被刪跟凍也相當的多刪的總數是多少"},{"start":20.454,"end":26.758,"text":"農業部的部分總共刪的是20.14億那被凍結的部分呢30億左右30.94吧凍的部分呢就是30億左右這兩應該也是創下這幾年的新高嘛對不對對"},{"start":35.991,"end":59.823,"text":"我想這個那這個對整個未來的農業部的運作會不會產生重大的影響我想一定是有影響的喔特別是在山檢的部分喔因為他刪了很多特定的科目那剛才有特別提到就是說國內的採旅費其實我們農業部非常多的要去現勘的不管是天然災害或者是山區這個大概一定都會影響啦那我今天特別注意到包括我們的一些"},{"start":61.624,"end":77.977,"text":"這個將來要天然災損的部分也會受到影響是這樣嗎是這個是主要是在特別收入基金的部分嗎對因為過往我想委員都很支持我們的很多基金的預算但是基金預算一旦被刪減以後在預算法規定就不能就沒有了"},{"start":78.317,"end":103.391,"text":"沒有以後超支的部分就不能動用第二億倍金可是天然災害有它的不確定性以去年來講我們就超過了40億那行政院所以去年三個颱風農損40億所以去年花了多少農損70幾億70幾億所以花了40億然後增加就是行政院撥補特別給我們的40億那其中有一部分行政院二倍金給我們40億有一部分是二倍金那我們自己的基金花了多少"},{"start":104.232,"end":120.681,"text":"我們今年的基金是611億然後我們天然災害編列的是27 28今年到39億所以這個3減掉了9000萬其實會影響到未來我們跟中央爭取到二倍金的一個對還有因為產交調節也會有影響因為產交調節我們進行也會因為"},{"start":123.923,"end":139.021,"text":"天氣的不順的時候資金才要調節的時候經費不夠那也不能申請動用二倍金那如果今年像去年一樣一樣遇到了這樣三個颱風遇到了可能70億的一個災損的話那我們在協助農民跟整個救助上會不會產生影響"},{"start":140.114,"end":167.05,"text":"一定會有影響但是以農業部的立場我們一定想辦法去協助那必要的時候可能就要用借的方式來處理跟銀行借嗎沒有我們可能可能就還是要抱怨啊用跟我們的農債基金來借錢跟農債基金來借錢對就原來本來這些可以但是這不是常態齁這個就是說因為很多委員不知道說他刪的好像只有九千萬意思而已但是相對他影響的是後面第二預備金的動資"},{"start":169.4,"end":184.387,"text":"所以這個部長好不好把這個再講得更清楚一點為什麼刪掉了九千萬影響到第二預備金的動資我想我們的特別收入基金包括農發農損農還有天然災害基金本身我們都是利用公務去撥補以後"},{"start":185.407,"end":214.137,"text":"那公務撥補如果說在撥補的這個項目裡面有被刪減的時候那只要你刪減那你依照預算法就不能動資第二預備金可是很可就是說我們的基金每一年都超支大概30億到50億所以等同說這個項目被刪減了所以未來無法申請行政院的第二預備金的動用行政院第二預備金是我們主要當我們超支的時候可以請行政院支援"},{"start":214.557,"end":231.237,"text":"那現在就不行了去年是動用了多少去年光災損的部分就40億了40億的行政院地位備金所以今年度如果發生這樣狀況因為被刪減而無法動用這40億的地位備金對 就不能向行政院申請所以這40億的地位備金就不能跟行政院申請"},{"start":231.818,"end":244.849,"text":"對 我們變成說要想辦法由行政院看有沒有其他的經委可以來支持所以這樣的刪減其實對於農民造成很大的一個影響是非常大的影響這幾年特別是氣候異常的狀況所以永遠不知道會是什麼狀況去年連來三個大颱風的影響所以造成這麼多農損那今年這樣刪減導致於40億的第二倍機無法動用這對農業跟對農民其實是很大的一個風險"},{"start":253.857,"end":273.908,"text":"對 一個很重要的就是去年三個颱風 今年各位委員可以 我跟委員報告今年從年初到現在已經二十幾個品項公告為天然災害最主要是低溫 低溫還有一些比較低的溫度所以其實氣候變遷已經造成這種極端天道造成農業的損失越來越頻繁部長有沒有什麼樣的補救措施可以來做的"},{"start":275.047,"end":291.532,"text":"我想我們如果說必須要超支的時候我們還是會向行政院爭取他除了第二預備金還有沒有其他的經費可以來協助的那如果不能協助的時候我想我們還是會申請去向農債基金來借錢"},{"start":292.492,"end":305.022,"text":"那另外我們這幾年的防疫也做得不錯啦不管是口蹄疫 出瘟等等我們都做了很多很不錯的結果但是我也看到我們的這個防疫的預算也被刪減包括被刪減被凍結這個會不會產生影響非常大的影響其實我們"},{"start":312.409,"end":333.308,"text":"做非洲豬瘟是亞洲就是只有日本和我國是還是維持非洲豬瘟的非疫區那非疫區的一個宣導除了在邊境的宣導是非常重要的那這些東西都需要一些經費來支持那整個那個豬瘟現在我們拔針了嘛但是我們還是要更謹慎的去處理持續的去做宣導"},{"start":333.848,"end":361.037,"text":"所以要不斷宣導 包括在這個入戶禁的部分那些的經費也是這邊的經費嘛我們是希望說像這類的媒體文宣是其實我們的宣導算做得相當因為進來之後一直不斷的提醒你不要帶一些相關的豬肉製品啊不要什麼甚至有很多的其實也減少被開罰同時間也減少入闖的機會所以這個很重要就這些經費被這樣的刪除凍結了之後會導致未來執行商會不會遇到問題"},{"start":362.317,"end":382.238,"text":"對 所以我也希望委員能夠了解其實農業部的這些媒宣的部分其實都是在針對我們的相關的這些政策還有必須要我們的利害關係人老百姓知道的這些訊息的傳遞啦那這個傳遞是非常重要的我覺得就為了一個雞蛋用這種報復性的煽動我認為很不合理"},{"start":382.698,"end":412.118,"text":"雞蛋是一個政策性的因素嘛就當時的時候缺蛋的時候大家是怎麼在罵的罵沒有蛋連個蛋都沒得吃就趕快努力從國外禁蛋進來以後然後又開始罵啊為什麼禁蛋進來啊那禁蛋進來就有能力禁蛋呢我們當然就努力的努力讓他能夠進來嘛那如果任何的違法或輸這個都可以調查嘛但是用這樣的方式來惡意的去把這些的經費全部給凍結跟刪除我認為這個其實對對農民對國家都是個傷害部長應該同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":412.638,"end":439.171,"text":"是 我想我們在經濟委員會所有的委員因為對農業夠了解所以我們在經濟委員的委員經費都沒什麼刪那很可惜的就是在黨團的部分那些對農業不夠了解的人這又是另外一個問題在經濟委員會內大家理性討論之後都認為可以的到了朝野協商的時候完全不理解用政治因素直接把你砍掉那經濟委員會在審什麼預算那根本就不用審了嘛到朝野審上去的非理性非專業的人員全部照政治判斷來刪那這樣子經濟委員會幹嘛"},{"start":441.312,"end":462.722,"text":"幹嘛開就直接送出去就好了國外旅費我們並不是國外旅費就是出差去玩的其實有非常多的國內旅費國外旅費其實都是針對農產品的行銷還有對於天然災害看災有實際需求這幾年能夠不斷的往外行銷出去也是靠這些經費嘛但如果不該花的我們都已經努力在要求刪減了嘛但是你不能夠不分青紅皂白的這樣亂山亂棟整體要求你就是直接"},{"start":465.783,"end":481.887,"text":"整體的棟 整體的山那對於有需要的這些部分一方面又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草不喝水那是怎麼活你要農業推廣要做得好又要照顧農民又要整個行銷什麼都要做那你又不給他經費又要把他砍光光又要把他棟結掉那你要怎麼做"},{"start":482.427,"end":505.895,"text":"有的動機還要求到大院來報告那還不是在委員會的報告大院的報告有可能拖到下半年那情同是被刪除掉那要怎麼做所以我認為這些的都是亂象啦我認為這個都應該我還是希望農業部還是要持續的不斷對外發聲讓大家知道這些惡劣的狀況才能夠遏止將來這樣的事情不斷的發生好不好我覺得農民跟農業是大家的不應該分任何的黨派應該要公平來思考"},{"start":506.516,"end":513.571,"text":"這樣惡劣的做法如果未來持續發生的話我覺得對台灣的農民是非常不利的最後一個請教一下前鎮漁港的招商進度目前狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":514.793,"end":537.571,"text":"我是不是可以請那個漁業署署長說明一下包委員我們那一個多工農運銷中心那之前有經過三次的這一個標注作業那當時因為還在興建中所以廠商沒有辦法預期他未來可以做什麼那目前接近完工了我們現在改走促餐去年底我們也辦了一次你年限拉到多長"},{"start":539.127,"end":562.038,"text":"年限現在基本上會是20年20年那我們現在基本上因為跟委員報告那一個運銷中心的量體非常大啦他地坪大概就2萬坪所以未來的這一個招商條件裡面我們會盡量減少這些廠商該有的負擔那怎麼樣來增加誘因部長這個請跟署長協助好不好"},{"start":562.278,"end":579.586,"text":"一定要增加更多願意順利的找到好的廠商來這個我多次的強調一定要找到好的廠商找到好的廠商這件事情就會很順利成功如果找到不好的廠商不夠強的廠商的話那他就會非常的辛苦那我希望這件事情大家那麼努力部長一定要盯緊這整個進度好不好我找時間再跟部長詳談謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":888,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（12時25分）謝謝主席。請陳部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這一次總預算的審查，農業部被刪跟凍相當多，農業部的部分刪的總數是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：總共刪的是20.14億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：被凍結的部分呢？"],["陳部長駿季：30億左右，30.94億吧！"],["賴委員瑞隆：凍的部分呢？"],["陳部長駿季：就是30億左右。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這兩個應該都創下這幾年的新高，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個對未來農業部的運作會不會產生重大影響？"],["陳部長駿季：一定是有影響的，特別是在刪減的部分，因為刪了很多特定科目。剛才有特別提到國內的差旅費，其實農業部有非常多要去現勘，不管是天然災害或者山區……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個當然一定都有影響。我今天特別注意到，包括將來一些天然災損的部分也會受到影響，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個主要是在特別收入基金的部分嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。因為過往委員都很支持我們很多基金的預算，但是基金預算一旦被刪減以後，預算法規定就不能……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就沒有了？"],["陳部長駿季：以後超支的部分就不能動用第二預備金，可是天然災害有它的不確定性，以去年來講，就超過了40億，行政院……"],["賴委員瑞隆：去年3個颱風農損40億，所以去年花了多少？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，農損是七十幾億，然後……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以花了40億？"],["陳部長駿季：行政院特別撥補給我們40億，其中有一部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以行政院二備金給你們40億？"],["陳部長駿季：有一部分是二備金，一部分是其他的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們自己的基金花了多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們今年的基金是611億，天然災害編列的是28億，今年到39億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個刪減掉了9,000萬，其實會影響到未來你們跟中央爭取到二備金的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，還有一些產銷調節也會有影響，我們經常會因為天氣不順，導致執行產銷調節經費不夠，卻也不能申請動用二備金。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果今年像去年一樣遇到3個颱風可能發生70億的災損，在協助農民跟救助上會不會產生影響？"],["陳部長駿季：一定會有影響，但是以農業部的立場，我們一定想辦法協助，必要的時候，可能就要用借的方式來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：借的？跟銀行借嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們可能還是要報院，跟農再基金借錢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以跟農再基金借錢？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：本來這些可以跟……"],["陳部長駿季：但這不是常態，因為很多委員不知道，以為刪的好像只有9,000萬而已，但相對影響的是後面第二預備金的動支。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長要不要把這個再講得更清楚一點？為什麼刪掉了9,000萬會影響到第二預備金的動支？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的特別收入基金，包括農發、農損，還有天然災害基金本身，都是利用公務預算撥補。如果撥補的項目裡面只要有被刪減，依照預算法就不能動支第二預備金，可是我們的基金每一年都超支大概30億到50億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：等同這個項目被刪減了，所以未來無法申請動用行政院的第二預備金。"],["陳部長駿季：行政院第二預備金是當我們超支的時候，可以請行政院支援，現在就不行了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：去年是動用了多少？40億？"],["陳部長駿季：去年光災損的部分就40億了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：40億的行政院第二預備金？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今年度如果發生這樣的狀況，會因為被刪減而無法動用這40億的第二預備金？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就不能向行政院申請。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這40億的第二預備金就不能跟行政院申請？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們變成要想辦法，由行政院看有沒有其他的經費可以來支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣的刪減其實對於農民造成很大的影響，因為我不知道……"],["陳部長駿季：是非常大的影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這幾年特別是氣候異常的狀況，所以永遠不知道會有什麼狀況，去年受到連來3個大颱風的影響，所以造成這麼多農損，今年這樣刪減將導致40億的第二預備金無法動用，對農業跟對農民都是很大的風險。"],["陳部長駿季：對，很重要的就是去年3個颱風，今年從年初到現在已經有二十幾個品項公告為天然災害，最主要是低溫，氣候變遷帶來極端天候已經造成農業損失越來越頻繁。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，有什麼樣的補救措施可以來做？"],["陳部長駿季：如果必須要超支的時候，我們還是會向行政院爭取，除了第二預備金，有沒有其他的經費可以來協助。如果不能協助的時候，我們還是會申請，向農再基金來借錢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，瞭解。另外，我們這幾年的防疫也做得不錯，不管是口蹄疫、豬瘟等等都做出很多不錯的結果，但是我看到防疫預算也被刪減、包括被凍結，這會不會產生影響？"],["陳部長駿季：非常非常大的影響，其實非洲豬瘟在亞洲只有日本和我國還是維持非疫區，非疫區的宣導在邊境是非常重要的，這些東西都需要一些經費來支持，整個豬瘟現在我們拔針了，但還是要更謹慎去處理……"],["賴委員瑞隆：要持續。"],["陳部長駿季：持續去宣導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以要不斷宣導，包括在入出境部分那些經費也是這邊的經費，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是希望像這類的媒體文宣……"],["賴委員瑞隆：其實我們的宣導算做得很好，因為入境時都會一直不斷提醒你不要帶一些相關的豬肉製品，甚至有很多的……也減少被開罰，同時間也減少誤闖的機會。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個很重要，這些經費被這樣刪除、凍結之後，會不會導致未來在執行上遇到問題？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我也希望委員能夠了解，其實農業部這些媒宣都是針對我們這些相關的政策，還有必須讓我們的利害關係人、老百姓知道這些訊息傳遞是非常重要的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就為了一個雞蛋，用這種報復性的刪凍，我認為很不合理，雞蛋是一個政策性的因素，當時缺蛋的時候，大家是怎麼在罵的？罵沒有蛋、連個蛋都沒得吃，結果趕快努力從國外進蛋，進來以後，又開始罵為什麼進蛋進來，就是因為有能力進蛋，我們當然就努力讓它能夠進來，如果有任何違法或疏失，這都可以調查，但是用這樣的方式惡意把這些經費全部凍結跟刪除，我認為其實對農民、對國家都是傷害，部長應該同意這樣的看法吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是，在經濟委員會所有的委員因為對農業夠了解，所以經濟委員會的委員都沒有刪什麼經費，很可惜的就是在黨團的部分，那些對農業不夠了解的人……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這又是另外一個問題，在經濟委員會大家理性討論之後都認為是可以的，但到了朝野協商時，完全不理解，就用政治因素直接把你砍掉，經濟委員會在審什麼預算？根本就不用審了，到朝野協商去，那些非理性、非專業的人全部照政治判斷來刪，這樣子經濟委員會幹嘛開？直接送出去就好了。"],["陳部長駿季：就像國外旅費，國外旅費並不是出差去玩的，其實有非常多的國內旅費、國外旅費都是針對農產品的行銷，還有對天然災害，勘災有實際需要。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這幾年能夠不斷的往外行銷出去也是靠這些經費。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果是不該花的，我們都已經努力要求刪減了，所以不能夠不分青紅皂白這樣亂刪、亂凍，要求你直接整體凍、整體刪，對於這些有需要的部分，一方面又要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草、不喝水，那怎麼活？你要農業推廣做得好，又要照顧農民，又要整體行銷，什麼都要做，但你又不給它經費，又要把它砍光光、又要把它凍結掉，那你要它怎麼做？有的凍結還要求到大院來報告，還不是在委員會報告，大院的報告有可能拖到下半年，形同被刪除掉，那要怎麼做？所以我認為這些都是亂象，我還是希望農業部要持續不斷對外發聲，讓大家知道這些惡劣的狀況，才能夠遏止將來這樣的事情不斷發生，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：農民跟農業是大家的，不應該分任何黨派，應該要公平來思考，如果未來持續發生這樣惡劣的作法，我覺得對臺灣的農民是非常不利的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一個，請教一下，前鎮漁港的招商進度目前狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以請漁業署署長說明一下？"],["王署長茂城：報告委員，那一個多功能運銷中心之前有經過三次的標出作業，當時因為還在興建中，所以廠商沒有辦法預期它未來可以做什麼，目前接近完工了，我們現在改走促參，去年底我們也辦理……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你年限拉到多長？"],["王署長茂城：年限基本上現在會是20年。"],["賴委員瑞隆：20年？"],["王署長茂城：現在基本上，跟委員報告，因為那一個運銷中心的量體非常大，地坪大概就有2萬坪，所以未來的招商條件裡面，我們會儘量減少這些廠商該有的負擔，怎麼樣來增加誘因……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這個請給署長協助，好不好？一定要增加更多誘因，順利找到好的廠商來。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我多次強調一定要找到好的廠商，找到好的廠商，這件事情就會很順利成功，如果找到不好、不夠強的廠商，它就會非常辛苦，這件事情大家那麼努力，我希望部長一定要盯緊整個進度，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我找時間再跟部長詳談，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請民運部部長好 有請部長"},{"start":22.371,"end":43.62,"text":"我想因為去年年底我們公布了一個955的一個禁養關於異種的一個禁養的一個名單所以引發了非常非常多的抗議然後非常多的輿論的批評那所以在1月15號的時候當時我有協調了農業部來跟四組團體一起來做了一個討論 釐清這些爭議但我想在整個過程之中其實都是我們沒有跟民眾"},{"start":44.82,"end":60.931,"text":"相關利益團體做一些清楚的溝通所以我覺得是前期上面我們做得不夠好那這一點部長您認同嗎我想我非常認同就是說當我們一個政策下去特別有不同的利害關係的時候我們更應該把一些"},{"start":61.812,"end":75.134,"text":"前世的相關的這些政策要做一個充分的溝通而不是讓外界語言突然蹦出來一個這個議題讓他們措手不及所以針對這個部分我想我們內部的這些標準作業程序我們也再做一個調整"},{"start":75.54,"end":103.726,"text":"好謝謝因為上個禮拜其實有討論一個叫做分級分類的一個管理那當時其實當動保跟東農院部的動保處動保司發通知給我們民間團體的時候他們其實在上禮拜一的時候希望可以增加民間的專家學者而是到禮拜一的時候給一直告訴我們說禮拜四的會議可是禮拜一給就說作業不及我想我們這邊其實也是非常希望的可以讓民間更多的參與讓大家可以來收容意見那下次這樣子的情形是不是可以不要再有了"},{"start":104.006,"end":127.825,"text":"我覺得下次絕對不會發生現在的那些那些邀請也好或是什麼也好其實電子郵件一下子就可以確認了嘛對啊因為我其實不能理解那有一些是除了閉門會議閉門會議的委員不能臨時外加以外那其他的只要是溝通的邀請專家的部分我已經跟他們講就是說希望說"},{"start":129.487,"end":141.336,"text":"就算你開會的當天有人願意來提出他的想法我們都應該很開心的接受好 謝謝因為我一直想說禮拜一通知到底為什麼禮拜四還是沒有這樣的時間會作業不緊那不過也非常謝謝部長的積極來處理那因為接下來我們還要來討論就是有關於這些風險評估的一個標準"},{"start":149.343,"end":169.661,"text":"但是因為這裡面會有一些非常主觀的認定就是動物福利跟公共安全所以我想要了解針對這個部分我們有沒有一個相關的時程如何來跟民間團體跟利益團體來做一些溝通呢我們目前有相關的時程嗎我想我們並沒有很明確的什麼時候要公告這個禁止動物禁止飼養的我們講的是風險管理的一些標準"},{"start":171.462,"end":196.892,"text":"我有跟我們棟老師談過希望他們有一個就是第一階段就是要將我們本身對於公共安全對於社會福利還有對於可能逃逸所造成的傷害的部分內部要先有一個有一個類似的一個指引完了以後才去做對外的溝通而不是自己都沒有想法拋出來直接去去廣結意見那樣就會開花很多議題就會開花所以這個部分"},{"start":198.593,"end":212.809,"text":"我希望說他們能夠盡快的提出來然後再把這個時程再提供給委員好 我希望我們可以在一個月以內再召開下一次的會議好不好那這個相關的時程是不是可以在一個禮拜左右送給我們辦公室呢一個禮拜可以嗎 相關的時程"},{"start":213.65,"end":242.745,"text":"好 謝謝那再來還是要回到比特犬的這個問題就是說比特犬剛剛其實黃姐委員也有問的那我想針對一個問題來討論就是說根據《動保法》32條其實當如果這個動物無故侵害他人之生命或身體製造成他人生命或身體傷害之動物就可以得進行沒入嘛32條是這樣規定可是在這個案例裡面其實是間隔了11天那我不曉得部長您對於這樣子的一個處置您的看法是什麼"},{"start":243.427,"end":268.717,"text":"我個人認為就是當然事主跟狗不管他是不是攻擊犬他有他的一個依賴感就是所以我覺得我個人可以接受的是如果出犯你可以類似留校查看第二次的話一定要強制沒入因為第二次表示你有可能再犯了但是因為現在法規寫一個德制那個德制就完全操縱在"},{"start":269.83,"end":287.131,"text":"一個行政的裁量那行政裁量萬一有人關說的時候那就可能就不處理了但是我覺得要有更明確的中央的指引我覺得這個部分我們農業部會來做我想再請教一個問題就是說每一個縣市政府的這個裁量標準你覺得現在是一致的嗎"},{"start":287.931,"end":316.683,"text":"我想可能因為其實我們也有看到一些案例嘛它有的不是一次兩次有到三次四次它都還沒有沒落嘛那剛剛當然有收容的問題可是我覺得這個財量標準應該有必要找地方縣市政府一起來討論一個一致性因為應該不會有台北市的命比較貴重然後哪個地方命比較賤吧應該沒有吧對不對所以我們應該要用一視同仁的標準來去確認這件事情所以是不是可以召開相關的會議來把我們各縣市的財量標準拉起呢"},{"start":317.183,"end":334.292,"text":"我覺得這個我們會立即去做去召開各縣市政府針對這個勾結性的權得冒入這件事情的一個指標跟標準然後如果大家有共識的話我們農業部就會發函到各縣市有一個相關的一個參考的指引這樣子"},{"start":335.197,"end":362.791,"text":"我想我覺得可能也要來瞭解一下地方縣市他們現在在組織的想法是什麼我覺得可能先大家一起來討論之後我們來訂出一個財洋標準我覺得那才是實務上可行的不過我還是要再更正一點提醒一點就是說不是只有攻擊性的不是只有比特犬因為現在咬傷的狗咬傷人的狗並不是只有比特犬像昨天也是有類似的新聞所以我們應該是針對於狗狗的某種行為的狀況之下我們的一個財洋標準要拉起謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1197,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時15分）謝謝，我們有請農業部部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。去年年底你們公布955種關於異寵的禁養名單，引發了非常非常多的抗議，以及非常多的輿論批評，所以在1月15號的時候，我協調了農業部跟飼主團體一起討論，釐清這些爭議，但我想在整個過程之中，其實都是我們沒有跟民眾、相關利益團體做一些清楚的溝通，所以我覺得是前期上我們做得不夠好，這一點部長您認同嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同，當我們一個政策下去而且特別有不同的利害關係的時候，我們詮釋這些相關政策更應該做充分的溝通，而不是讓外界以為突然蹦出來一個議題，讓他們措手不及。所以，針對這個部分，我們內部的這些標準作業程序也在調整。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝喔！上個禮拜其實有討論一個叫做分級、分類的管理，當時農業部的動保司發通知給民間團體，他們其實在上禮拜一的時候，希望可以增加民間的專家學者，這是禮拜四的會議，可是禮拜一給的時候，就一直告訴我們說作業不及。我們其實也是非常希望可以讓民間有更多的參與，讓大家可以來收攏意見，下次這樣子的情形是不是可以不要再有了？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得下次絕對不會發生，現在的那些邀請也好或是什麼也好，其實電子郵件一下子就可以確認了嘛！不需要走那個流程……"],["張委員雅琳：對啊！我就是一直不能理解……"],["陳部長駿季：不要走那個流程，有一些是除了閉門會議，閉門會議的委員不能臨時外加以外，其他的只要是溝通的、邀請專家的部分，我已經跟他們講，就算你開會的當天有人願意來提出他的想法，我們都應該很開心地接受。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝喔！因為我一直想說禮拜一通知到底為什麼禮拜四還是……這樣子的時間會作業不及，不過也非常謝謝部長積極處理。","因為接下來我們還要來討論就是有關於這些風險評估的標準，但是因為這裡面會有一些非常主觀的認定，就是動物福利跟公共安全，所以我想要了解針對這個部分，我們有沒有一個相關的時程，如何來跟民間團體跟利益團體來做一些溝通呢？我們目前有相關的時程嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們並沒有很明確的什麼時候要公告禁止飼養的……"],["張委員雅琳：我們講的是風險管理的一些標準。"],["陳部長駿季：但是風險的管理，我有跟我們動保司談過，希望他們第一階段就是要將我們本身對於公共安全、對於社會福利，還有對於可能逃逸所造成的生態的部分，內部要先有一個類似的指引，完了以後才去做對外的溝通，而不是自己都沒有想法拋出來，直接去廣結意見，那樣就會開花，很多議題就會開花，所以這個部分我希望他們能夠儘快地提出來，然後再把這個時程提供給委員。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我希望我們可以在一個月以內召開下一次的會議，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：那相關的時程是不是可以在一個禮拜左右送給我們辦公室呢？一個禮拜可以嗎？相關的時程。"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。再來還是要回到比特犬的問題，比特犬剛剛其實黃捷委員也有問了，我想要針對一個問題來討論，根據動保法第三十二條，無故侵害他人之生命或身體，致造成他人生命或身體傷害之動物，就「得」逕行沒入嘛！第三十二條是這樣規定，可是在這個案例裡面，其實是間隔了11天，我不曉得部長對於這樣子的處置，您的看法是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我個人認為當然飼主跟狗，不管牠是不是攻擊犬，他有依賴感，所以我個人可以接受的是，如果是初犯，可以類似留校查看；第二次的話，一定要強制沒入，因為犯到第二次就表示有可能再犯，但是現在法規寫了一個「得」字，那個「得」字就完全操縱在行政裁量，萬一有人關說的時候，可能就不處理了。我覺得中央要有更明確的指引，這個部分我們農業部會來做。"],["張委員雅琳：再請教一個問題，你覺得每一個縣市政府的裁量標準現在是一致的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我相信是不一樣的。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我們也有看到一些案例，牠咬人也不是一次、兩次，咬到三次、四次都還沒有沒入。當然，那可能有收容的問題，可是我覺得這個裁量標準應該有必要找地方縣市政府一起討論出一致性，因為應該不會有臺北市的命比較貴重，然後哪個地方的命比較賤吧？應該沒有吧，對不對？我們應該要用一視同仁的標準去確認這件事，所以是不是可以召開相關的會議，把各縣市的裁量標準拉齊呢？"],["陳部長駿季：對於這個我們會立即去做，召集各縣市政府討論攻擊性的犬「得沒入」這件事情的指標跟標準，如果大家有共識的話，我們農業部就會發函給各縣市一個相關的參考指引。"],["張委員雅琳：我想可能也要瞭解地方縣市現在在處置的想法是什麼……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們會先做各縣市的溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得可能大家先一起討論之後，再訂出一個裁量標準，那才是實務上可行的。不過，我還是要再提醒一點，有攻擊性的不是只有比特犬……"],["陳部長駿季：其他也會。"],["張委員雅琳：現在會咬傷人的狗並不是只有比特犬，像昨天也有類似的新聞。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["張委員雅琳：所以應該是針對狗狗的某種行為狀況之下，我們的裁量標準要拉齊。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","下一位請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們請部長好 又請部長兩位好"},{"start":20.782,"end":41.931,"text":"好部長好我要來跟你請教一下這個比特犬的問題喔因為其實最近這個比特犬有一隻叫Lucky然後上了媒體大家非常關注那其實我知道這個比特犬現在全台灣光是你們登記的就已經有3974隻沒錯那其中最多登記的其實是在高雄那"},{"start":42.831,"end":65.216,"text":"接下來要如何管制其實我真的非常的我覺得必須要有更多管制的措施啦那這次的案件看起來其實是這個事主沒有盡到他的責任嘛我不知道說部長有沒有了解到這個案件我想基本上齁因為我們如果是被列管的時候你的出門一定有相關的規範規範是在那邊那最重要的是事主沒有依照這個規範去執行"},{"start":67.97,"end":85.362,"text":"那問題就來了因為部長也知道說看起來是這個事主沒有因為他的他應盡的責任去執行可是光是媒體上披露的他攻擊路人的記錄就已經有四次然後在社區裡面甚至兩次讓他們社區的鄰居見血"},{"start":86.323,"end":110.636,"text":"那甚至這媒體上面披露就已經是11天內兩度跳車去咬人家也就是說光是媒體揭露的就這麼多那我不知道說為什麼會一再的縱容讓像這麼具攻擊性的犬隻然後已經是有非常多次不良記錄的甚至是就媒體的揭露來說連同一個社區他的鄰居都不敢讓小孩去社區的中庭因為那一隻"},{"start":111.956,"end":136.841,"text":"惡犬會在中庭去影響別人甚至是其他有養狗的鄰居也不敢把狗帶出來因為都怕被他攻擊那怎麼會屢次讓這樣的事情發生而沒有更好的機制像是在前面幾次發生的時候就沒入或者是其他更強制的方式去讓這個事主知道說不能一再的發生呢我想在從這個事件其實我們可以學到非常多的教訓就是說這些就是"},{"start":140.39,"end":157.739,"text":"被列管的這些犬吃那他可能因為咬傷人但是沒有通報沒有通報這個部分我們要去加強讓民眾可以了解如果這種被列管的這種惡犬的部分我們應該怎麼樣去通報第二個部分我覺得說"},{"start":159.264,"end":179.938,"text":"要即時的沒路 要落實這個即時的沒路這個政策啦而不是由地方的這邊因為透過很多關說他可能又可以繼續養所以這個部分我想我們後續會針對什麼條件之下要有一個很明確的強制沒路的部分會給一個比較明確的指引"},{"start":180.885,"end":200.092,"text":"好 謝謝部長其實你提了兩件非常重要的改善的機制第一個就是我想問的這個通報的機制是不是應該要建立是而不是讓每次都是我們一次一次的媒體上面又發現才知道說原來這隻狗的不良記錄已經這麼多了然後第二個是說不可以因為有人去講一講"},{"start":201.212,"end":229.591,"text":"然後就又放寬他繼續讓他在社區這樣子撒野是所以這兩件事情我是希望說接下來如何讓這個四組的責任教育更加強然後這個通報機制一定要建立然後是不是真的很明顯已經有攻擊性了那是不是及早的沒入這三件事情我是希望接下來農業部可以跟地方的政府的動保處來做一個完整的機制的調整那我也要講說其實2022年已經公告3月之後就公告說"},{"start":231.652,"end":250.544,"text":"然後但是因為現在就是還是有這麼多隻是因為他們已經養了嘛在2020年已經養了然後高雄就有500多隻所以接下來這總共近4000隻全台灣近4000隻的比特犬到底要怎麼去做更加強不要再發生這樣子的事件這個是非常重要的"},{"start":251.864,"end":268.608,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒那後續我們會針對市主針對一般的利害關係人還有縣市政府的動保機關去做更加強的宣導跟他的一個預防作為那必要的指引我想我們中央農業部一定會有一個明確的指引下去"},{"start":269.328,"end":295.003,"text":"好好謝謝部長承諾那最後一點小提醒啦因為就我所知有一些地方政府啊他不希望隨便的沒入犬隻當然不是隨便我覺得已經是具攻擊性的犬隻然後再加上他這一隻狗本身就已經是他也有過去不良的攻擊性的行為了那很多地方政府說他們不敢沒入的原因是因為收容不足收容量能的問題不能變成是他們不敢沒入的原因是"},{"start":295.723,"end":322.557,"text":"所以這件事情如何去協助地方政府來解決我覺得也是非常重要的對 這個議題其實也凸顯了就是寵物的分級分類的管理的重要性所以我想後續我們會持續在努力然後針對收容的部分其實問題更大因為我們的收容量能不夠那我們怎麼樣把收容裡面的犬隻做一些更優化的一個措施我想我們會來努力好 謝謝部長好 再拜託謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1140,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（13時3分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。我要來跟您請教一下比特犬的問題，最近有一隻比特犬叫lucky上了媒體，大家非常關注。其實我知道現在全臺灣的比特犬，光是你們登記的就已經有3,974隻。"],["陳部長駿季：快4,000。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯！其中最多登記的是在高雄。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員捷：接下來要如何管制，我真的覺得必須要有更多管制的措施，這次的案件看起來其實是這個飼主沒有盡到他的責任，我不知道部長有沒有瞭解這個案件？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，如果是被列管的時候，出門一定有相關的規範，規範在那邊，最重要是飼主沒有依照規範去執行。"],["黃委員捷：那問題就來了，部長也知道，看起來是這個飼主沒有盡到應盡的責任去執行，光是媒體上披露的，牠攻擊路人的紀錄就已經有4次，在社區裡面，甚至兩次讓他們社區的鄰居見血，媒體上面披露的已經是11天內兩度跳車去咬人家，光媒體揭露的就這麼多，我不知道為什麼會一再地縱容。這麼具攻擊性的犬隻已經有非常多次不良紀錄，連同一個社區的鄰居都不敢讓小孩去社區中庭，因為那隻惡犬會在中庭去影響別人，甚至是其他有養狗的鄰居，也不敢把狗帶出來，因為都怕被牠攻擊，怎麼會屢次讓這樣的事情發生，而沒有更好的機制？像是在前面幾次發生的時候就沒入，或者是其他更強制的方式讓這個飼主知道不能一再地發生呢？"],["陳部長駿季：從這個事件我們可以學到非常多的教訓，被列管的這些犬隻，牠可能咬傷人卻沒有通報，這個部分我們要加強讓民眾瞭解，對被列管的這種惡犬，我們應該怎麼樣去通報。第二個部分，我覺得要落實及時沒入的政策，而不是由地方處理，因為透過很多關說，他可能又可以繼續養，所以這個部分，我們後續會針對在什麼條件之下要進行強制沒入，這部分會給一個比較明確的指引。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。其實你提了兩件非常重要的改善機制，第一個，就是我想問的，通報機制是不是應該要建立？"],["陳部長駿季：是！"],["黃委員捷：而不是每次都讓我們一次一次的從媒體上發現，才知道原來這一隻狗的不良紀錄已經這麼多了。第二個，不可以因為有人去講一講，就又放寬，繼續讓牠在社區這樣子撒野這兩件事情我希望接下來如何更加強對飼主的責任教育，通報機制一定要建立，對真的很明顯、已經有攻擊性的，是不是及早沒入？這三件事情，我希望接下來農業部可以跟地方政府的動保處進行完整的機制調整。我也要講，其實2022年3月之後就公告比特犬是禁養的，但現在還是有這麼多隻，是因為他們已經養了，在2022年以前已經養了，像高雄就有五百多隻。接下來對全臺灣近四千隻的比特犬，到底要怎麼更加強管理，不要再發生這樣子的事件，這是非常重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，後續我們會針對飼主、針對一般的利害關係人，還有縣市政府的動保機關去更加強宣導跟其預防作為，而必要的指引，我們中央農業部一定會有一個明確的指引下去。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的承諾。最後一點小提醒，就我所知，有一些地方政府不希望隨便地沒入犬隻。當然不是隨便，我覺得已經是具攻擊性的犬隻，再加上這一隻狗本身過去已經有不良的攻擊性行為，很多地方政府說他們不敢沒入的原因是因為收容不足，但收容量能的問題不能變成他們不敢沒入的原因，所以這件事情如何去協助地方政府來解決，我覺得也是非常重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個議題其實也凸顯寵物分級、分類管理的重要性，後續我們會持續再努力，針對收容的部分，其實問題更大，因為收容量能不夠，怎麼樣把收容所裡面的犬隻做一些更優化的措施，我們會來努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長，再拜託。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃捷委員。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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請部長跟江市長部長好 市長好這個"},{"start":18.485,"end":39.503,"text":"因為現在這個很多的民眾都把寵物當成是家人那所以說在過世之後也會舉辦這個比較隆重的商禮那所以呢有這個寵物的生命紀念夜越來越多那這個你們在2023年的7月份有一個訂定了一個非都市土地申請變更為"},{"start":40.864,"end":66.621,"text":"寵物生命紀念設施施用新辦事業計畫審查作為要點是名稱很長好請教一下這個從這個2023年7月到現在有幾件來申請了現在目前我所了解是73件來申請那其中有被駁回的大概是那個21件那退辦的話大概20件那通過的話大概有17件那其他15件在審查"},{"start":68.822,"end":84.791,"text":"所以實習建材合格通過,那在合格通過之後還要交回地方政府再做審查嘛?對不對?那目前現在全國合法的冰葬業者,寵物的生命經營業者有幾家?跟委員報告,目前完成地方政府核准的有兩家兩家,這兩家在哪裡?"},{"start":94.894,"end":120.894,"text":"目前的一個處理在桃園跟那個台中市好 桃園台中是因為他們有這個自治條例的關係嗎對 相關的自治條例好 那所以我的問題來了第一個就是說有70幾件來做申請然後呢因為農業部要先做審查再交回地方政府那光是農業部這邊兩年多來才核准了17件這速度上面會不會太慢"},{"start":122.742,"end":145.11,"text":"而且你們是用書面審查的方式嘛是不是你們大概平均一個案件審查大概需要多久時間這個我請我們的司長好請司長那個跟委員報告我們說到案子的話那個會相關單位一個案子大概要兩個月一個案子要兩個月準駁兩個月的時間然後就那個開會然後再做一個準駁對好那我的意思是在於說因為你們"},{"start":147.51,"end":168.24,"text":"這個有那個要點出來的然後各縣市政府也都知道嘛那為什麼不把這一個這個第一階段的審查就直接交由地方政府來做就好了因為我看你們這一個要點裡面啊你們有規範的說這一個比如說這個存放還有處理的設施然後呢接下來呢還有這個有關這個"},{"start":170.621,"end":190.779,"text":"要怎麼去做辦理都是要交由地方政府的不管是這個城鄉局、農業局、地政局、環保局、水域局等等這都是地方政府在做審查的嗎那我的意思是說那為什麼要跌床駕屋就是說你就直接交由地方政府按照你們的這個作業要點來做這個審查就好了啊我想這個部分謝謝委員的關心那會後我想我會去評估說"},{"start":198.706,"end":216.85,"text":"是不是直接可以移到地方政府來審或者是在審查的時候是一個聯席會議的方式聯席會審的方式能夠縮短這樣的一個時間不會說做什麼地方在那個因為你們也是做書面審那你們審查的東西其實跟地方政府審查的東西其實是內容應該是大同小異吧對不對我想"},{"start":218.241,"end":242.093,"text":"農業部審查的是大的規範然後地方審查是根據它的地方自治的部分它的一個個別的一個規範大的規範你就按照你們這個作業要點來處理就好了因為我看到你們作業要點裡面很多地方大家有做規範那只要地方政府按照你們這個規範來做然後最後他們其實能不能成立也都是由地方政府我剛才講的那些相關的局處來做其實跟我們農業部也沒有關係所以我是覺得說"},{"start":246.816,"end":270.776,"text":"現在是有這個需求但是在時程上面其實是慢了很多那你農業部審一次然後核准之後再由地方政府再審一次然後再送給這個農業部時間花太久了我了解那個委員的關心點但是有一個重要中央審查的時候其實他雖然說書面可是他的座落點有沒有他跟周遭的這些東西都需要一些套圖跟一些確認"},{"start":271.997,"end":287.891,"text":"不過我想這個地方也可以做啊地方這個套圖跟那個因為主動決志在我們地方的農業地震都可以做啦沒有這個部分可能我想我們會依據委員的想法我們看看有沒有辦法簡化這個流程還有中央跟地方的"},{"start":288.391,"end":305.111,"text":"分工的部分也要做一個確認啦這個部分我想我們會來努力就是說就算地方沒有這個自治條例可是我們中央有這個要點按照這個要點來做就可以了嘛對不對我想我們朝這個方向看看簡化這樣的一個方式如果地方自治條例沒有出來的時候是不是可以繼續往下走啦"},{"start":306.259,"end":332.67,"text":"那我再問 因為現在只有這個作業要點那可是也衍生很多人一些亂象那一些亂象就是說這個譬如說收費沒有統一的標準那如果業者如果惡性倒閉不知道怎麼去求償然後還有仲介業者呢 洋裝是業者然後消費者也沒有辦法去做處理然後設置地點有可能不符合法規但是消費者也不知道然後寵物遺體處理方式也不一致林林總總的請問一下"},{"start":333.751,"end":339.058,"text":"這個是中央農業部來管理呢還是地方政府來做處理呢如果有這些爭議性的話"},{"start":339.875,"end":350.524,"text":"我想我們為了解決這個爭議性,我們會用定型化契約來做一個規範所以目前沒有這個定型化契約?"},{"start":350.524,"end":365.717,"text":"現在目前沒有對阿,因為我是說,因為現在變成是你沒有中央一個,就像你們講的一個定型化契約或是一個統一的法規然後變成說在地方政府遇到這些亂象的話,變成說處理也不一致"},{"start":366.537,"end":395.271,"text":"那我是建議說就像部長講的就是說我們中央有一個契約讓地方的政府或是業者都能夠來遵循好不好我想我們會盡快我可能的話我希望在三個月之內都能夠把定型化契約公告讓那個業者或事主有所依循因為現在在處理這個可能都是口頭約啦口頭講一講那後來出問題以後你完全沒有合約規範的話也很難處罰啦所以我覺得定型化契約應該要更快的去落實"},{"start":396.031,"end":412.01,"text":"至少三個月內提出來好不好因為這個就是說有需求的民眾越來越多然後業者也越來越多但是你沒有一個相關的規範要到地方去然後大家也不知道怎麼去做處理我們盡快的來努力的做謝謝部長 謝謝市長 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謝謝那是不是有請部長請陳部長部長好部長我看到現在立法院有一個提案是由民眾黨黨團提出的他是針對全國農業金庫獨立董事的提名他們希望去做改變"},{"start":31.4,"end":54.05,"text":"那我們也知道農業金庫裡面將近有7000億的存款所以由農業部指派專業的獨立董事來做好監理以及管理整個農業金庫的運作我想這件事真要緊但是民眾黨忽然提出說他們希望要改變農業金庫獨董的一個提名"},{"start":56.543,"end":76.445,"text":"這讓我很高興那我也想請教一下部長你怎麼看待現在立法院有這樣的一個提案我跟委員報告就是農業金庫是整個我們農業信用部的上位的一個銀行那他肩負了非常多的重要的政策的推動的執行者包括我們所有的農業的專案貸款"},{"start":78.427,"end":107.099,"text":"這個部分還有銀行各地銀行的轉存款然後他去投資的部分所以相對的他是穩定台灣農業的金融非常重要的一個公司那他本身的董事裡面現在公股的部分有六席我們農業部主導的有六席民股的有四席那獨立董事五席可是相對的以他們的提案的理由是說農會有沒有希望有他的一個"},{"start":107.879,"end":134.298,"text":"固定的一個推薦那相對的現在目前15席董事裡面其實農會的代表已經有9席了啦其實有適當的代表權了可是非常重要的喔各位都知道農會本身它每幾年就會做改選它有一些不穩定性那如果農業金庫獨立董事用推選的方式不是由農業部推薦的方式的話很有可能經營權"},{"start":136.54,"end":152.515,"text":"就會被一些農會拿走那相對的經營區拿走其實對國家的農業的這個金融是一個災難所以你講的重點啦說重點是農業金庫他的持股我們農業部有持股當然各個農會也都有持股"},{"start":153.015,"end":173.688,"text":"但是重點在於說農會它是基層在基層的話它的一些專業判斷難免會有所偏頗所以我們比較需要農業部要做這個專業的然後做一個比較上位階的因為這是管理整個借款的農業金庫7000億的借款所以我覺得這件事非同小可知識體大"},{"start":174.528,"end":191.197,"text":"所以要好好去正視這個對 我想我們也會持續跟委員各個委員溝通啦因為農業金庫它不像一般的銀行它對穩定我們農業金融是有非常重要的很多人不瞭解以為說獨立董事因為照規定他也不需要齁就是有他的提名權嘛"},{"start":192.057,"end":207.252,"text":"那我們也很願意接受人家的推薦我們一起來努力我想部長一旦農民或者是農企業一旦有需要的時候我想農業部都是很贊成利用農業金庫的這一些資金然後給他們借貸給他們讓他們去發展他們的農企業我想這是農業金庫跟農業部共同的一個意志啊我們有曾經說農民或農企業要借款的時候我們很惡意的刁難我想應該也不會這樣"},{"start":216.901,"end":242.058,"text":"那如果在這個前提之下我們除了發展農業 接下來要監管這些預算這台車也很危險對 所以相對農業金庫的經營權就非常重要啦你如果沒有這個經營權的話以後農業的金融的措施就如果不配合的時候那所有的金融的所有的我們金融的一個支持給農民的這些支持完全就會被別人所掌控啦"},{"start":242.824,"end":271.731,"text":"好那接下來我再問第二個議題這個議題一樣是就是民眾黨我不知道他為什麼一直要針對針對我們農業部來的他們現在說要剪裂農業部的特別收入基金就是你早上在報告的時候你說因為他們剪裂了這個特別基金那一旦我們的農業部的基金預算一旦被剪裂的話就沒有辦法動之第二預備金來做"},{"start":273.331,"end":291.703,"text":"接下來的一些 如果資金不足的時候有辦法動資所以你有講到說啊 剛才天然災害啊 今年災害比較嚴重的時候有可能我們就沒有辦法動資預備金來協助農民度過天然災害我想這個事情有夠嚴重我們就要從今天開始 我們就要開始小聲拜拜開始拜託眾生民 我們媽祖婆一定要台灣放掉巫孫"},{"start":299.825,"end":326.224,"text":"出現災害我預備金不夠部長去年大概動用預備金協助農民大概花了多少錢我們平均每一年動用就是操資我想操資的部分平均大概30億到50億那天然災害我們去年操資多了就是40億那這40億就是由行政院來協助提供其中有一部分是用二倍金給我們"},{"start":326.604,"end":355.112,"text":"所以那一年如果知道像去年3個紅胎嘛3個紅胎所以就有40億嘛對不對那很明顯是不夠預算額不夠不夠需要用二倍金來協助對二倍金或其他的那現在問題很大耶你說因為他簡略砍了九千萬九千萬雖然起來是砍不多但是他影響的結果就是預算法第22條第二項不得動之欲備金那怎麼辦啦所以這個部分因為已經"},{"start":356.132,"end":356.915,"text":"已經成了"},{"start":357.842,"end":385.658,"text":"最後就是已經刪了嘛那現在唯一的就是說我們真的不夠的時候我們還是會向行政院爭取看除了第二預備金以外還有沒有其他的經費啦那經費有什麼就不能用預備金啦對啊其他經費不就要再用特別預算那有可能就是同意我們先借資啦就是用農債基金去借啦因為農民如果受損的話我想政府的承諾一定要做到這很嚴重欸政府的承諾不能跳掉這很嚴重欸當然說嘛沒風災"},{"start":387.779,"end":405.887,"text":"阿沒有天然災害最好啦阿我先災害阿農業部當然要趕快幫助農民阿還有一個重點阿所以這個砍預算這個嚴重在這裡阿除了天然災害以後還有部長你早上你只是輕輕去點到可是花一天我就知道說喔這事情大條對還有一個很重要的產銷調節啦產銷調節也在基金"},{"start":408.988,"end":427.097,"text":"在執行 那每一年的產銷調節我們也是也是操之 因為有時候那個產量太多的時候 我們做一些調節的部分嘛所以這個部分喔 都是跟農民的權益他的一個生活的支持 跟他的所得都有相對的影響啊 產銷調節也要來一家 不能當預備金 這樣站起來就越嚴重啦產銷調節需要的是很多錢耶"},{"start":433.271,"end":449.378,"text":"很多 所有的基金都用到啦肥料的補助啦我覺得現在很多人都輕描淡寫說喔 農業部預算總額有增加所以砍預算沒有差農業部預算總額增加是你們的法定支出增加吧"},{"start":450.612,"end":464.925,"text":"你們對農民的照顧啊包括說他們的一些保險啊農業災害的法定支出那部分是增加的啊農業部從農委會升格為農業部那時候所有的委員都希望說升格了以後"},{"start":466.166,"end":492.805,"text":"爭取更多的機會為我們的農業的基礎建設跟我們的福利做照顧所以我們在去年我們平均去年的部分我們增加了80億那今年我們也預計增加了80億結果被刪掉剩下63億這63億是新的工作不是說我們都不做事就憑供增加了以後給你刪我們是增加很多新的工作而這個新的工作被刪了20億以後其實就變成"},{"start":494.624,"end":500.907,"text":"卡在那邊了所以部長我透過這個資訊我就是覺得說我們農業部一定為了農民這事情已經不是說加以生問題這是為了農民農民是需要這條錢你現在人家台積高清高清滿英雄高的是後面的40億後面賭到財海沒辦法用到財海的第二餘倍金"},{"start":517.782,"end":532.439,"text":"所以這為了農民,我們這件事要公清澈,要謹慎辦法,好不好?我看起來他們也不可能啊,現在看起來國民黨,我們副議也沒過啊,希望重新討論也沒辦法啊,好不好?部長,所以這是為了農民,這件事要謹慎辦法,好不好?好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時47分）謝謝，是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。我看到現在立法院有一個提案是由民眾黨黨團提出的，主要是針對全國農業金庫獨立董事的提名，他們希望去做改變。我們知道，農業金庫裡面將近有7,000億的存款，所以由農業部指派專業的獨立董事來進行監理以及管理整個農業金庫的運作，我想這件事情很重要，但是民眾黨忽然提出他們希望改變農業金庫獨董的提名，這讓我很煩惱，我也想請教一下部長，你怎麼看待現在立法院有這樣的一個提案？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農業金庫是農會信用部的上位銀行，它肩負著非常多重要政策的推動與執行，包括我們所有的農業專案貸款，還有各地銀行的轉存款再去投資的部分，所以相對上它是穩定臺灣農業金融非常重要的一個公司。在它本身的董事裡面，現在公股的部分有6席，也就是農業部主導的有6席，民股的有4席，獨立董事5席。以他們提案的理由是說農會希望有它固定的推薦，但在目前15席董事裡面，農會的代表已經有9席，其實已經有適當的代表權了。可是非常重要的，各位都知道農會本身每幾年就會改選，它有一些不穩定性，如果農業金庫獨立董事用推選的方式，而不是由農業部推薦的方式的話，很有可能經營權就會被一些農會拿走，相對的，經營權被拿走對國家的農業金融是一個災難。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你說到重點了，重點在於農業金庫的持股，農業部有持股，當然各個農會也都有持股，但是重點在於農會是基層，基層的專業判斷難免會有所偏頗，所以比較需要靠農業部的專業做一個比較上位階的部分，因為這是管理整個農業金庫7,000億的借款，所以我覺得這件事非同小可、茲事體大，要好好正視這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們也會持續跟各個委員溝通，因為農業金庫不像一般的銀行，它對於穩定我們農業金融是非常重要的……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯。"],["陳部長駿季：很多人不瞭解，以為獨立董事……因為照規定它也不需要有提名權，我們也很願意接受人家的推薦，我們一起來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，一旦或農民或農企業有需要的時候，我想農業部都很贊成利用農業金庫的資金借貸給他們，讓他們去發展農企業。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這是農業金庫跟農業部共同的意旨，我們曾經聽說過農民或農企業要借款的時候，農業金庫很惡意地刁難嗎？我想應該也不會這樣吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果在這個前提之下，我們除了發展農業，接下來要監管這些預算，這件事情也很要緊。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以相對地，農業金庫的經營權就非常重要，沒有經營權的話，以後農業金融的措施如果不配合的時候，所有給農民的金融支持完全就會被別人所掌控。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。接下來我再問第二個議題，我不知道民眾黨為什麼一直要針對農業部而來，他們現在說要減列農業部的特別收入基金，就是你早上在報告的時候，你說因為他們減列了這個特別收入基金，農業部的基金預算一旦被減列的話，如果資金不足，就沒有辦法動支第二預備金來做接下來的處理。所以你說到如果今年遇到天然災害比較嚴重的時候，有可能我們就沒有辦法動支預備金協助農民渡過天然災害，我想這件事情有夠嚴重！從今天開始，我們不就要開始燒香拜拜，祈求眾神明、媽祖婆一定要讓臺灣風調雨順，以免出現災害，預備金不夠。部長，去年動用預備金協助農民大概花了多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：每一年超支的部分大概平均30億到50億，天然災害我們去年很多颱風……"],["蔡委員易餘：超支……"],["陳部長駿季：就是多了40億，這40億就是由行政院協助提供，其中有一部分是用二備金給我們。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以那一年如果災害……像去年有3個颱風嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對，超過40億。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以就有40億，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：很明顯是不夠，預算額不夠……"],["陳部長駿季：不夠，所以像……"],["蔡委員易餘：需要用二備金來協助。"],["陳部長駿季：對，二備金或其他的。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在問題很大，你說它減列、砍了9,000萬，9,000萬雖然是砍不多，但是影響的結果就是預算法第二十二條第二項不得動支預備金，這樣該怎麼辦啦？"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個部分因為最後已經刪了，現在唯一的就是我們真的不夠的時候，還是會向行政院爭取看除了第二預備金以外，還有沒有其他的經費，如果沒有其他的經費……"],["蔡委員易餘：那經費要怎麼……就不能用預備金了啊。"],["陳部長駿季：對，不能用預備金……"],["蔡委員易餘：其他經費不就要再用特別預算？"],["陳部長駿季：有可能就是同意我們先借支，就是用農債基金去借，因為農民如果受損的話，政府的承諾一定要做到……"],["蔡委員易餘：這個很嚴重耶！"],["陳部長駿季：政府的承諾不能跳票。"],["蔡委員易餘：這很嚴重耶！當然，如果沒有風災、也沒有天然災害最好，但是萬一發生災害了，農業部當然要趕快幫助農民啊！"],["陳部長駿季：還有一個重點……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以砍這個預算的嚴重在這裡啊！"],["陳部長駿季：除了天然災害以外還有……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你早上只是輕輕點到，可是我一聽就知道「代誌大條」！"],["陳部長駿季：對，還有一個很重要的是產銷調節，產銷調節也在基金執行，每一年的產銷調節我們也是超支，因為有時候產量太多，我們做一些調節，所以這個部分跟農民的權益、生活的支持跟所得都有相對的影響。"],["蔡委員易餘：產銷調節也要來自這裡，又不能動預備金，這樣聽起來就很嚴重，產銷調節需要很多錢耶！部長。"],["陳部長駿季：很多，所有的基金都用到……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我在想這件事情……"],["陳部長駿季：肥料的補助也沒辦法，生物資材也沒辦法。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得現在很多人都輕描淡寫地說農業部預算總額有增加，所以砍預算沒有差。農業部的預算總額增加是你們的法定支出增加吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們對農民的照顧，包括他們的保險、農業災害的法定支出那部分是增加的呀！"],["陳部長駿季：委員，可不可以給我幾十秒講一下？農業部從農委會升格為農業部，那時候所有的委員都希望升格了以後可以爭取更多的經費，對農業的基礎建設及農民的福利有所照顧，所以我們在去年平均增加了80億，今年我們也預計增加80億，結果被刪掉，剩下63億。這63億是新的工作，不是我們都不做事，就憑空增加了以後給你刪，我們是增加了很多新的工作，而這些新的工作被刪了20億以後，其實就變成卡在那邊，所以我們必須重新去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長，透過這個質詢，我覺得農業部一定要為了農民，這件事情已經不是加預算的問題，這是為了農民，農民需要這筆錢，現在被砍了9,000萬，影響所及的是後面的40億，後面如果遇到災害，就沒有辦法用到第二預備金，所以這是為了農民，這件事情我們要說清楚，我們要趕快想辦法，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是看起來他們也不可能，現在看起來我們覆議也沒過，希望重新討論也沒辦法，好不好？部長，這是為了農民，這件事情要趕快想辦法。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘召委。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我要請一下陳部長好 請部長"},{"start":19.165,"end":33.972,"text":"部長好之前我們曾經問過一個農業移工的相關的問題那我們就繼續追蹤一下這件事情我想說截至113年底就是農業移工開放原額是2萬名你知道實際引進有多少名嗎到目前"},{"start":37.157,"end":58.997,"text":"應該是13,580多人去年底是13,800多人所以其實這一兩個月來其實陸陸續續已經在通過了所以這13,500多人那我在想說這部分我想說可能還是要稍微去調整一下這個部分因為我們上次有特別提到因為相較於其他因為台灣缺工情況非常的嚴重各個產業都缺工"},{"start":59.758,"end":82.11,"text":"可是大部分的產業他們只要那個移工一開放出來的時候大概都會秒殺像營建移工啊什麼大概都一開放那就秒殺然後像農業移工這樣子我們開放兩萬個名額現在只進來一萬三千多個其實情況還是特殊的那我想說這個部分並不是表示說我們農業不缺工我們看到112年農業勞動力調查的時候"},{"start":84.972,"end":104.253,"text":"就是阻力農家缺工的情況就短缺常骨工大概有4216人次4000多人 對那麼短缺臨時工用高達83000多人次這其實就表示說其實農業還是缺工啦那既然缺工那為什麼說去申請的意願又沒有那麼高部長你可不可以簡單回答一下"},{"start":104.753,"end":124.046,"text":"我想申請的部分他有本勞的一個比例這是一個問題那過去有一些小型的有沒有他本勞是1比3現在已經改成1比1了這個部分我們把它解決了第二個就是有些很多東西是季節性的就是說他請了以後他沒有辦法一整年都讓他工作"},{"start":124.446,"end":132.288,"text":"所以我們用外展工的方式去處理你講到這很好其實就是說就季節性的狀態因為農業跟一般產業不一樣所以農業有非常明顯季節性的問題所以它就會有農忙跟農閒的時候所以要請工不一定那麼容易請所以我們講說外展的農業移工的時候我們開放了外展農業移工"},{"start":146.272,"end":164.317,"text":"可是其實也沒有用滿所以我當時提到一個狀態就是說有沒有可能農業部跟勞動部這邊去協商一個狀態能夠讓這些移工能夠跨業別的去運作是不是有可能會解決這樣子的一個問題因為我先講一下勞動部這個狀態到今年1月底為止有超過9萬個移工是失聯的狀態"},{"start":170.919,"end":183.925,"text":"那勞動部他也很清楚這九萬多個失聯移工的時候有很大量是跑到農業的領域當中去當黑工了那在這樣的情況之下的時候呢我在想說如果能夠讓外長的農業"},{"start":186.206,"end":206.671,"text":"移工的時候然後跟其他非農業部門的營建移工等等其他相關他們能夠有跨業別的去做一個資源是不是有可能可以解決這個問題我想請教一下因為這個我上次就有提我想請教部長有沒有跟勞動部這邊做一個協商其實我持續跟勞動部協商那現在遇到一個"},{"start":207.671,"end":227.165,"text":"目前沒辦法解開的就是說當初他進來有個勞動契約這是一件事情他們很多業者就是說他規定週休二日要休息如果他跑到農業來做的話那些業者擔心什麼太累了以後會影響他正常班的一個時間點理解"},{"start":228.826,"end":256.903,"text":"那個部長因為我在想說因為其實不同業別都有它的特殊性在可是農業移工這個部分的時候它確實很特殊所以我們希望說部長這邊能夠多花點心思去溝通那也許說某一些產業的移工他們也許可以配合那這個部分的時候我想請部長這邊再跟勞動部加緊去聯繫然後能夠解決這樣的一個問題這樣的問題能夠解決也可以同時解決掉這麼多就是逃跑"},{"start":257.443,"end":278.448,"text":"移工的問題我先跟你們報告我們現在過渡時間找不到新的方法過渡時間我們就把現在的那個外展可以跨區以前是只能在這個縣市嘛現在跨區的話就可以做調度資源然後第二個部分我也跟勞動部長洪部長提到就是說農會本身他有比較多的量能"},{"start":279.068,"end":303.666,"text":"但是他又牽涉到本勞跟那個外勞的比例我也希望他能夠調降讓更多的農會來參與的時候那就可以變成一個調度網那這樣的話就可以支援這種所謂的臨時性的缺工理解部長那這部分就請跟勞動部這邊加緊去做一個協調因為缺工的問題真的很嚴重而且真的每個產業都在那農業部門也是必須要特別去關注到的"},{"start":304.306,"end":330.415,"text":"那我接下來我想問一下因為最近農業部有韓文各地方政府嘛要求清查農保資格這件事情對不對因為省紀部之前有提到說我們現在投保91萬的那個農保當中有大概8萬5千人疑似有其他正職的工作那包括什麼律師啊立正式建築士等身份我覺得這些問題排除都沒有問題可是因為在嚴查的過程當中的時候呢也感覺上碰到有很多曾經"},{"start":332.791,"end":356.119,"text":"當過農民的真的老農好像也受到波及那針對這個部分我想請教部長針對這次清查農保資格的時候有沒有一些具體的一個依據跟審查標準我想我們的審查標準其實都是一致性的然後我先說今天在業務報告我也提到了針對光電的部分因為農民必須要有一分地然後實際從農"},{"start":357.519,"end":376.099,"text":"那光電業者如果說地主把這個地租給人家去養殖以後做光電的時候那他可能因為沒有土地了會造成農保本身會被退出那我們這個部分我們用專案的方式配合國家政策的話我們可以讓他維持他的農保資格"},{"start":376.979,"end":403.539,"text":"這個部分其實都解決了所有的光電的政策的部分然後第二個部分就是審計部所查的是領取天然災害但是不是農保人的部分那這個部分其實我們了解都是幾乎是同一個家庭的有時候領的時候就叫兒子去領有沒有這個部分審計部所提供的這些數據只是有疑慮有疑慮不代表他就是一定要退保"},{"start":404.039,"end":423.508,"text":"所以就個案的部分我想我們也會協助就是地方政府特別的農務部長我在想說你講那些部分我在想說真正的有違規該要剔除的就剔除可是有些曾經在農業領域真的很認真在做可能因為年紀的部分或者是因為配合政策的部分可能"},{"start":424.989,"end":442.882,"text":"租給青農或者是怎麼樣的狀態我覺得能夠更細緻一點來處理好不好會的 65歲以上就不需要保有一定要保有一分地的理解所以這個部分我們已經處理所以我們會持續的精進而且把我們農業的資源真正的投入在我們的實際耕作者"},{"start":443.382,"end":461.983,"text":"OK那接下來這邊的時候我想問一個部分因為你剛剛提到說有些光電業者他配合的狀態那我講到一個餘電共生的一個例子因為餘電共生他們在電籌許可當中的時候會有一個需求還有養殖戶的同意書部長知道這個狀態嘛對不對我想知道養殖戶怎麼去做一個認定"},{"start":463.735,"end":482.147,"text":"我想第一個部分因為我們養殖有養殖登記啦所以這個部分其實光電現在的問題不在這裡現在問題就是說我本身是一個地主又養魚然後我租給光電業者的時候那光電業者說他來包養"},{"start":483.147,"end":492.413,"text":"那他來保養其實都是比較因為他不是專業的就變得應付式的所以我們現在修改的就是我們希望說引進專業的漁青來這塊地做成豬然後在興建的過程"},{"start":499.578,"end":515.413,"text":"怎麼規劃就參與那這樣的話才能夠實際的達到是你剛剛講這部分因為坦白說這種不同的樣態非常的多那因為養殖戶在電子學友當中的時候會要有一個養殖戶同意書那坦白說這會碰到一個狀態是有些事實上是有養殖登記證的"},{"start":516.374,"end":529.869,"text":"有些是沒有的所以說在這狀態的時候那如果說沒有一個合法的一個養殖登記證的一個養殖戶的時候碰到這種狀態的時候很可能就會跟我們剛剛講到說在農保這邊也被剔除"},{"start":531.591,"end":554.944,"text":"那這個部分我希望說能夠處理得更細緻一點因為那所長這邊是好像不太理解這邏輯在哪裡我想這個部分我請部長這邊再稍微去做一個後續的去一個follow那我想要特別講一個狀態就是說對於這些愁色光電的業者的時候我們是不是可以在這樣子的漁電工生政策當中同時要求他們來切捷協助來輔導這些本來"},{"start":557.765,"end":580.843,"text":"不是一個合法養殖戶能夠變成合法化這個部分部長可不可以在這邊做一個要求我想這個部分我們一定會用更積極的方式去協助那我們會看到現在很多問題就是沒有實際養殖然後地主就是我們現在先把地主的問題解決了因為地主的部分我們能夠讓他確保有農保"},{"start":581.763,"end":602.183,"text":"那這樣的話他比較敢簽這個這個承受的一個證明啊以前是怕簽結簽了以後我就沒有地了沒有地的話就農保就會退掉所以我把農保資格維持以後他就不願意比較願意簽第二個就是除了養殖登記以外還有一個陸魚的申報也可以"},{"start":603.344,"end":624.768,"text":"然後如果是會員也可以所以我們有更多的管道是能夠讓他把它變成一個合法化的方式來處理部長因為這個問題坦白說現在漁業的問題是一件部分那綠能政策又是一件事情因為台灣坦白說又缺電所以如何怎麼樣能夠把這東西做好平衡我覺得很重要那我們希望能夠再協助輔導這些"},{"start":628.829,"end":636.252,"text":"漁業養殖戶的時候的時候呢然後也能夠讓整個光電的發展能夠比較好能夠讓整個產業能夠順利往前推動那最後部分我想說請那個部長這邊針對新竹南寮漁港淤積的問題因為之前有特別提到說要把頭前溪跟那個南寮漁港這個如何去解決這樣的一個淤沙問題的時候要做一個那個"},{"start":655.089,"end":679.201,"text":"我們今年大概有八千萬去處理這部分的一些其實這只是魚沙的產出今年有八千萬是不是我們後續還會處理那我在想說因為南苗漁港的魚沙跟整個頭前溪的一個流向有很大的一個問題還有東北季風所以我們希望能夠有效的來解決它而不是只是一個對"},{"start":682.765,"end":700.383,"text":"我們必須做水工模型才能夠長久是 OK那之前有講這個部分我們到後續進度如何你說明一下根委員報告目前就委託海大正在做評估當中那這一個計畫到明年會截止那整個期末報告出來的時候到時候可能"},{"start":700.994,"end":717.194,"text":"也可以邀請委員一起來參與來瞭解這樣子OK 好 謝謝如果難得漁港的魚殺問題請部長這邊特別的關注對不起委員因為你這張簡報我必須要再次的澄清就是清查農保老農被養套殺這是不對這是錯誤的訊息因為65歲以上"},{"start":720.157,"end":729.687,"text":"土地就不需要持有一定一分地的部分所以65對象完全沒有去處理這個農保的問題了所以絕對不是老農的養套謝謝部長因為這個問題其實我剛剛在歸所以我沒有主動問可是謝謝你主動回應謝謝好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":978,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（12時34分）謝謝主席。邀請一下陳部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。之前我們曾經問過農業移工的相關問題，我們就繼續追蹤一下這件事情，截至113年底農業移工開放員額2萬名，你知道實際引進有多少名嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：到目前應該是一萬三千五百八十多人，到去年底是一萬三千八百多人，所以其實這一、兩個月來陸陸續續已經在通過了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以是一萬三千五百多人，可能還是要稍微調整一下這個部分，因為我們上次有特別提到，相較於其他國家，臺灣缺工情況非常嚴重，各個產業都缺工，可是大部分的產業只要一開放移工出來，大概都會秒殺，像營建移工等等大概一開放就秒殺，像我們開放農業移工2萬個名額，現在只進來一萬三千多個，情況其實還是特殊的。這個部分並不是表示我們的農業不缺工，我們看到112年農業勞動力調查主力農家缺工情形，短缺常僱工大概有4,216人。"],["陳部長駿季：四千多人，對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：短缺臨時工高達八萬三千多人次。"],["陳部長駿季：八萬三左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：其實就表示農業還是缺工，既然缺工，為什麼去申請的意願又沒有那麼高？部長，可不可以簡單回答一下？"],["陳部長駿季：有關申請的部分，它有本勞的比例，這是一個問題，過去有一些小型的本勞是1比3，現在已經改成1比1了，這個部分我們把它解決了。第二個，很多東西是季節性的，他請了以後，沒有辦法一整年都讓他工作……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們用外展工的方式去處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你講到這個很好，這就是季節性的狀態，因為農業跟一般產業不一樣。"],["陳部長駿季：是，不一樣。"],["鄭委員正鈐：農業有非常明顯的季節性問題，所以就會有農忙跟農閒的時候，要請工不一定那麼容易，所以我們講說要開放外展的農業移工，可是其實也沒有用滿。我當時提到一個狀態，有沒有可能農業部跟勞動部去協商，讓一些移工能夠跨業別去運作，是不是有可能會解決這樣一個問題？我先講一下勞動部的狀況，到今年1月底為止有超過9萬個移工是失聯的狀態，勞動部也很清楚這九萬多個失聯移工有很大量是跑到農業領域當中去當黑工。在這樣的情況之下，如果能夠針對外展的農業移工跟其他非農業部門，比如營建移工等等，讓他們能夠跨業別去支援，是不是有可能可以解決這個問題？我想請教一下，因為這部分我上次就有提，部長有沒有跟勞動部協商？"],["陳部長駿季：我持續跟勞動部協商，現在遇到目前沒辦法解開的問題就是當初他進來時有勞動契約，這是一件事情，很多業者規定週休二日要休息，如果他跑來做農業的話，那些業者擔心他們太累了，會影響正常班的時間點。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，其實不同業別都有其特殊性在，可是農業移工這個部分確實很特殊，所以我們希望部長能夠多花點心思去溝通，也許某一些產業的移工可以配合，這個部分我想請部長再跟勞動部加緊聯繫，解決這樣的問題……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會朝這樣的方向……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這樣的問題能夠解決的話，也可以同時解決掉這麼多逃跑移工的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，現在過渡時間找不到新的方法，我們就讓現在的外展可以跨區，以前只能在這個縣市，現在跨區的話就可以調度支援。"],["鄭委員正鈐：瞭解、OK！"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分，我也跟勞動部洪部長提到農會本身有比較多的量能，但是又牽涉到本勞跟外勞的比例，我也希望他能夠調降，讓更多的農會來參與，就可以變成一個調度網，這樣的話就可以支援這種臨時性的缺工。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，部長，這部分就請跟勞動部加緊協調，因為缺工的問題真的很嚴重，而且每個產業真的都有，農業部門也是必須要特別關注到的。","我接下來想問一下，最近農業部有函文各地方政府要求清查農保資格對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為審計部之前有提到現在投保農保的91萬人當中，大概8萬5,000人疑似有其他正職工作，包括律師、地政士、建築師等身分，我覺得這些排除都沒有問題，可是在嚴查的過程當中，感覺上有很多曾經當過農民的真老農好像也受到波及。針對這個部分，我想請教部長，這次在清查農保資格的時候，有沒有一些具體的依據及審查標準？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的審查標準其實都是一致性的，今天在業務報告我也提到針對光電的部分，因為農民必須要有一分地，然後有實際從農，如果地主把地租給人家去養殖以後做光電的話，他可能因為沒有土地了，會造成農保本身被退出，這個部分我們用專案的方式，如果是配合國家政策的話，我們可以讓他維持農保資格，這其實都解決了所有光電的政策的部分。","第二個，審計部所查的是領取天然災害但並不是農保人的部分，這個部分經過我們了解，幾乎是同一個家庭的，有時是領的時候就叫兒子去領。針對這部分，審計部所提供的這些數據只是有疑慮，有疑慮不代表他就是一定要退保，所以就個案的部分我們也會協助，就是地方政府特別和農會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，針對你講的這些部分，我想真正有違規該要剔除的就剔除，可是有些曾經在農業領域真的很認真在做，可能因為年紀或者是因為配合政策的關係，比如租給青農或者是其他狀態，我希望能夠更細緻一點來處理好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會的，65歲以上就不需要一定要保有一分地，這個部分我們已經處理了，我們會持續的精進，把我們的農業資源真正投入在實際耕作者。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，接下來我想問一個部分，因為你剛剛提到有些光電業者配合的狀態，我要講漁電共生的一個例子，因為漁電共生在電籌許可當中會有一個需求，就是需要有養殖戶的同意書，部長知道這個狀態對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是的，我知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想知道養殖戶怎麼去認定？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，因為養殖有養殖登記，其實光電現在的問題不在這裡，現在的問題在於我本身是地主又養魚，然後我租給光電業者的時候，光電業者說他來包養，但因為他不是專業的，所以就變成應付式的，所以我們現在修改了，我們希望引進專業的漁青來承租這塊地，然後在興建的過程怎麼規劃就參與，這樣才能實際達到……"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對你剛剛講的部分，坦白說，各種不同的樣態非常多，因為在電籌許可當中必須要有養殖戶同意書，這會碰到一個狀態是有些事實上是有養殖登記證的，有些是沒有的，如果是沒有合法養殖登記證的養殖戶碰到這種狀態，很可能就會像我剛剛講的在農保這邊也被剔除，這個部分我希望能夠處理得更細緻一點，因為你們好像不太理解這個邏輯在哪裡，所以我請部長後續再稍微follow一下。我想要特別講的狀態是，對於這些籌設光電的業者，我們是不是可以在漁電共生的政策當中，同時要求他們切結協助及輔導本來不是合法的養殖戶變成合法化，這個部分部長可不可以在這邊做一個要求？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們一定會用更積極的方式去協助，我們看到現在很多問題就是沒有實際養殖，我們現在先把地主的問題解決了，也就是地主的部分我們能夠讓他確保有農保，這樣的話，他比較敢簽承作的證明，以前是怕簽了以後他就沒有地了，沒有地的話，農保就會退掉，所以我們把農保資格維持以後，他就比較願意簽。","第二個是除了養殖登記以外，還有陸漁的申報也可以，然後如果是會員也可以，所以我們有更多管道能夠讓他變成合法化的方式來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這個問題，坦白說，現在漁業的問題是一個部分，綠能政策又是一件事情，因為臺灣缺電，所以怎麼樣把這個東西做好平衡，我覺得很重要，我們希望在協助輔導這些漁業養殖戶的同時，也能讓整個光電的發展比較好，讓整個產業能夠順利往前推動。","最後我想請部長關注新竹南寮漁港淤積的問題，因為之前有特別提到針對如何解決頭前溪及南寮漁港淤沙的問題要做評估……"],["陳部長駿季：我們今年大概有8,000萬去處理這部分淤積的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：實際只是淤沙的鏟除，今年有8,000萬是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，後續還會處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為南寮漁港的淤沙跟整個頭前溪的流向有很大的問題，另外還有東北季風，所以我們希望能夠有效來解決它，而不是只是做一個……"],["陳部長駿季：我們必須做水工模型才能夠長久。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，之前有講這個部分，我不知道後續進度如何？"],["王署長茂城：跟委員報告，目前委託海大正在做評估當中，這一個計畫到明年會截止，整個期末報告出來的時候，可能也可以邀請委員一起來參與和了解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。關於南寮漁港的淤沙問題，請部長這邊要特別關注。"],["陳部長駿季：對不起，委員，針對你這張簡報，我必須再一次澄清，就是「清查農保，老農被養套殺」是不對的，這是錯誤的訊息，因為65歲以上就不需要一定要持有一分地，也就是65歲以上完全沒有去處理農保的問題了，所以絕對不是老農的養套殺，這一點我必須澄清。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝部長，這個問題我剛剛並沒有主動問，謝謝你主動回應，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。是不是拜託鄭委員代理主席？"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：接下來請蔡易餘召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們請部長好 請部長喂吼"},{"start":35.134,"end":56.562,"text":"部長這個待會的話題我先跟部長報告一下就是說我們現在因為天氣的問題那前陣子是寒極地瓜新化跟新式那麼第一時間我們也去現場看那麼在目前為止好像我們也還沒得到"},{"start":58.082,"end":79.309,"text":"這個部分我們速度真的有點慢第二個部分就是芒果其實我相信這種天氣所以現在是芒果後面可能還有荔枝 龍眼這個陸續都一定會發生相關的問題那麼我相信在3月19號"},{"start":81.09,"end":107.204,"text":"我們辦公室就向農業部發文了要求要重視我們的芒果還有我們的相關這些荔枝龍眼果樹的問題有玉井南西南化佐鎮大內然後還有相關其他的區域希望要多去關心那3月24號我們農業部就迅速發文給市府農業局要求速報部長我今天為什麼要特別提出這個問題"},{"start":109.13,"end":138.37,"text":"其實我們一定要製造在整個我們農損的速報甚至SOP要把它建立起來過去就是因為地方政府都在等中央可是這是錯的啊每次我們去看完之後還是要速報啊可是我們當時候都是上面先做然後地方慢做所以導致農民都覺得怎麼速度這麼慢"},{"start":140.325,"end":151.35,"text":"所以我當時候地瓜的時候 你知道嗎 連同這次芒果也是連地瓜 我跟農民說 你趕快 趕快去補 去居公所速報"},{"start":152.83,"end":169.014,"text":"然後也還拜託議員 陳B議員跟李偉智議員結果呢 沒有到達20% 怎麼可能 光我們知道的資料就有了農民都說 沒有啦 我們如果去 一定都會被記住因為中央還沒有資料"},{"start":171.274,"end":196.73,"text":"我說錯了你們要先去訴報要讓區公所知道你們有這些損害那麼他才能收集這些資料給農業局再統一給農業部農業部才能派相關人員來做會刊對不對這是程序嘛可是我們到目前為止地方政府其實還不知道這樣的程序"},{"start":198.127,"end":212.5,"text":"這是很危險的啊所以當時候地瓜的時候還拜託議員去拜託區公所去奉上有受損地瓜的農民趕快來區公所訴報這樣才達到20%欸否則農民都覺得說那補也不好 那給區公所說也不好啊"},{"start":221.365,"end":239.327,"text":"所以這次芒果也是耶 芒果當時候 當農民跟我反應的時候我就跟農民說你趕快 你去跟區公所訴訟說要不好了 連農會的總幹事也這樣的認為喔我說你錯了 你們趕快去跟區公所說"},{"start":241.062,"end":264.468,"text":"區公所才會知道你們已經有損害了那農業部已經知道了農業部已經透過我我已經正式發文他農業部知道了可是地方政府還是要統一這些資料送到農業部農業部已經在這邊等了還好我們一直追3月24號你們發了這個文給地方這是我們追的"},{"start":269.13,"end":281.758,"text":"追這張文很辛苦耶3月20日你們才發給農業局農業局在3月25日才發文給各區公所說趕快去了解所有災損的狀況我今天會拿這個講就是說我們的SOP一直以來都沒建立起來導致農民都覺得我們慢半拍"},{"start":294.568,"end":321.749,"text":"到底是誰賣的不知道啊各位 第一件最簡單的一句話就說阿勒農業報啊那你不是很委屈你們不是很委屈嗎問題是第一階段區公所都還沒報資料農業局都還沒報資料那光有我們我想你們是第一時間在3月19號應該我是最快發文給你們 因為我跟農民的關係不一樣"},{"start":323.646,"end":345.109,"text":"他們是信任我們所以發生什麼問題都會跟我們講說這道火線開得很漂亮但是都沒調過因為天氣天氣的因素所以部長會用這個部分就是說請把SOP建立起來我已經講了數次了可是這個SOP還是沒有建立起來"},{"start":346.118,"end":362.887,"text":"我跟委員報告SOP就在這一邊那是公所的人裝傻啦我敢這樣講啦就是他們用被動的方式去處理那農業部現在目前有這樣子的農民有速報的方式那我們也保留一個彈性我們可以"},{"start":363.507,"end":383.063,"text":"主動公告所以我們改良廠其實非常辛苦他們隨時在掌握這個狀況所以就是因為你們還有另外一個叫主動公告所以地方政府就說你們都去找立委立委可以叫農業部主動公告問題是他們根本都沒有清楚到底所有的災損狀況"},{"start":384.764,"end":405.155,"text":"因為我們的災損要公告要到達百分之二十我們的所謂農業部直接公告就像說有天災那個一下子颱風下來全部都吹到倒上去 那就不用再說了那個就可以主動公告可是像這種有延遲性的或是有這種天氣變化的每一個地方都不一樣"},{"start":406.195,"end":434.425,"text":"所以就一定要由各區公所來做一個處理那不是區公所裝傻連農業局都在裝傻我想這個部分我想我會再跟地方政府做一個比較明確的指引我覺得這個要要求那第二個部分就是您所關切的芒果的部分因為它有生理弱果的現象所以它相對的比較困難一點我們會等生理弱果的時候才會去確認沒有啦 部長我告訴你"},{"start":436.172,"end":461.167,"text":"他們現在 他們都是轉嫁的啦 整個花瀉掉就沒有過那還有什麼叫生理弱果的狀況所以我告訴你 你們不要用你們既定的他們現在通報了 現在的狀況就是花瀉掉 結果乾乾淨淨的過都不一樣就像地瓜 你知道嗎 一個半月的地瓜本來是要這樣子"},{"start":462.728,"end":473.022,"text":"正常是這個樣子可是在這一次在心事跟心話 你知道變成怎樣連一隻手指頭都不夠連一隻這樣子 這一隻手指頭都沒有辦法"},{"start":476.348,"end":493.559,"text":"就跟過去的生長狀況都不一樣了你要等什麼你還要等什麼好啦 部長我們有一個專業的團隊改良的專業團隊會去判斷我告訴你 你的專業要不要聽到齁都輸人在基站在第一線在撐這個農民啦你這樣說對我們研究人員是一種侮辱啦我們有侮辱喔 部長部長 你這樣講你要小心喔我們有侮辱喔我都很尊重我們的基層人員喔"},{"start":505.666,"end":513.048,"text":"我哪一句話侮辱我們的七城特約是你們要你們要節哀人家地方的聲音你們過去都站在你們的專業立場你們完全沒有跟地方人在地方爭外顧啊人爭外顧啊農民狠天災害不一定也不是災害我告訴你啦 部長就像我跟你講的啊你的漢籍本來這麼大口 一個半月要這麼大口個月存一支都不夠"},{"start":532.573,"end":547.331,"text":"過去已經違反到之前的生長季現在它落果之後 那花落了之後果完全沒有 那一看就知道了這個我有看過 在之前 在好幾年前的關田就是這個樣子"},{"start":549.072,"end":557.3,"text":"所以部長你不用替我遞帽子了我都很尊重我們的基站領域我沒有尊重所以你不用戴我帽子我站在的是農民的立場我希望我們專業人員也能夠聽到我們地方農民的聲音這是我一直的堅持對過去到現在我的立場都很一樣我沒有侮辱任何一個專業人員請部長也不要給我戴帽子"},{"start":573.856,"end":581.706,"text":"我如果講侮辱 冒犯令我可以道歉但是我對我們的專業 我時間有限啦我再來跟部長請教啦我們後輩都難忘乎啦我們現在的人力編制跟組織編制到底怎麼解決啦"},{"start":591.758,"end":603.109,"text":"我們現在目前就承包我們的中南農公共建設這是基礎備用那更重要就是人力組織的部分重點是你們的人力編制跟機關整個組織編制嘛有錢沒有人要怎麼辦那行政院再審一個組織他不會說這個禮拜去下個禮拜就下來了什麼時候嘛從去年一直談的就是這個議題嘛你去看我講這個蘭花園區"},{"start":615.862,"end":621.768,"text":"我告訴你 部長不是只有你 我跟你講而已從陳其仲主委一直到現在我每次 後避蘭花園區我們怎麼提高他的位階我們一直談到的就是這個掛牌之後 不要讓他只有掛牌"},{"start":635.345,"end":650.378,"text":"所以現在我們這個計畫花卉產業創新園區我們已經進入公建計畫沒錯可是你有公建計畫你有這個預算問題是你的人員組織到底我們要等到什麼時候現在的關卡在哪裡"},{"start":651.738,"end":668.53,"text":"我跟委員報告一個組織的轉變跟籌設不是說我們報了以後准了就下來是 現在的關鍵在哪裡人總本身還要去詢問各單位的意見然後完了以後還要送到行政院你們現在打算要讓他跟什麼結合"},{"start":671.753,"end":684.547,"text":"我們現在跟農業縣所的花卉分所結合啊對啊 你們跟花卉分所結合嘛所以你們農業部這邊的人力問題都沒有問題嘛所以現在是在人事總數沒有 總人數我們也會做傾升"},{"start":685.629,"end":701.108,"text":"提升嘛 我是說你們的部分你們都檢討完了嘛我們已經3月17號已經送到人員那邊去了你們都檢討完了 現在到底卡關卡在哪裡沒有 現在就是人事總署他循程序要去問各機關的意見嘛"},{"start":702.269,"end":727.144,"text":"那多久?不知道這個要人總那邊所以你們3月17號送了我們該做的我們都做了你們做了3月17號你們送了在整個蘭花園區的人力編制跟機關組織編制你們3月17號就送了現在在等行政院人事總署現在在詢問每一個地方他們的意見那人事總署現在你們有去接洽他的意見如何?審議中審議中,意見呢?"},{"start":729.96,"end":757.33,"text":"沒有 他全部繞完了以後他才會給我們意見然後請我們提供意見再送回去因為一個組織要重新建立沒有那麼簡單所以部長所以你們現在沒辦法掌控狀況只是你能夠掌控是你們現在資料都送出去了對 然後我們盡可能去說服跟花卉實驗所結合送出去了然後提升人力組織跟那個結合然後提升人力然後就看人事總署怎麼處理了是不是是好 安"},{"start":758.69,"end":777.126,"text":"希望一個月你隨時跟我們報告狀況可以嗎我想我會隨時把這個進度跟委員說明可以嗎可以否則我們在這邊講得很大聲然後人家又這樣給你順便看到底怎麼樣都不知道沒有沒有 我跟你報告真正的啟動是在2月初才啟動的所以這個速度來講其實已經是蠻快的"},{"start":777.546,"end":787.529,"text":"是二月份才啟動我們已經講多久了我們講多久了部長我們從去年就開始講了講人力組織喔對啊所以你們就慢了半拍我們從去年就開始講了如果這個行政院沒有同意的時候你動都沒有用所以我們花了很多時間跟人走做溝通這也是委員在幫忙的"},{"start":800.694,"end":828.845,"text":"好啦我這個我擺的那麼辛苦啦拜託主席給我這就是後邊藍花橫枯那個部長你知道這是什麼嗎等一下可以來放一下好這是什麼嗎你知不知道這是藍展的公仔啊公仔啊這叫什麼這叫什麼你看你都不知道你看你都不知道這叫什麼奧奇壽啊奧奇壽啊叫什麼奧奇壽啊來我不知道這叫我們的藍花壽"},{"start":832.976,"end":849.855,"text":"所以我是要推未來我們應該要把這個公仔推廣出去這個才是我們的重點啦我們要有一個吉祥物代表我們的貨幣蘭花園區吉祥物放主席台前面他就可以隨時入境進入農業部再跟"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":798,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（12時10分）謝謝主席。我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好！"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，這是待會的話題。","我先跟部長報告一下，現在因為天氣的問題，前陣子是地瓜，有新化和新市，第一時間我們也去現場看，到目前為止好像我們還沒得到訊息，這個部分的速度真的有點慢。第二個部分就是芒果，其實我相信這種天氣，連人都撐不住，更別說農作物，所以現在是芒果，後面可能還有荔枝、龍眼，陸續都一定會發生相關的問題。","在3月19日我們辦公室就向農業部發文，要求要重視我們的芒果，還有相關的這些荔枝、龍眼果樹的問題，有玉井、楠西、南化、左鎮、大內，還有相關的其他區域，希望要多去關心。3月24日農業部也迅速發文給市府農業局，要求速報。","部長，我今天為什麼要特別提出這個問題？其實我們整個農損的速報甚至SOP一定要建立起來，過去就是因為地方政府都在等中央，可是這是錯的，每次我們去看完之後還是要速報，我們當時都是上面先做，地方慢做，導致農民都覺得怎麼速度這麼慢？所以當時地瓜的時候，你知道嗎？連同這一次的芒果也是，我跟農民說，你趕快去報，去區公所速報。還拜託議員，陳碧玉議員和李偉智議員。結果沒有到達20%，怎麼可能？光我們知道的資料就有了，農民都說他如果去一定都被拒絕的，因為中央還沒有資訊。我說，錯了，你們要先去速報，要讓區公所知道你們有這些損害，那麼他才能蒐集這些資料給農業局，農業局再統一給農業部，農業部才能派相關人員來做會勘，對不對？這是程序嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是到目前為止地方政府其實還不知道這樣的程序，這是很危險的！所以當時地瓜的時候，我還拜託議員去拜託區公所廣播，要地瓜有受損的農民趕快來區公所速報，這樣才達到20%，否則農民都覺得那個報也沒用，那個跟區公所說也沒用。這一次的芒果也是，當時農民跟我反映的時候，我就跟農民說，你趕快去跟區公所速報。他說這樣沒用。連農會的總幹事也這樣認為。我說，你錯了，你們趕快去跟區公所說，區公所才會知道你們已經有損害了，農業部已經知道了，農業部已經透過我知道了，我已經正式發文給他，農業部知道了，可是地方政府還是要統一這些資料送到農業部，農業部已經在這邊等了。還好我們一直追，3月24日你們發了這個文給地方，這是我們追的耶！追這張文很辛苦耶！3月24日你們才發給農業局，農業局3月25日才發文給各區公所，要求趕快去了解所有災損的狀況。","我今天會拿這個講就是我們的SOP一直以來都沒建立起來，導致農民都覺得我們慢半拍，到底是誰慢的，不知道啊！最後地方政府就最簡單一句話說，就農業部啊！這樣你們不是很委屈，你們不是很委屈嗎？問題是第一階段區公所都還沒報資料，農業局都還沒報資料，光有我們，我想你們是第一時間在3月19日就知道，我應該是最快發文給你們的，因為我跟農民的關係不一樣，他們是信任我們，所以發生什麼問題都會跟我們講。他們說這次花雖然開得很漂亮，但是都沒有著果，因為天氣的因素。部長，所以我用這個部分，就是請把SOP建立起來，我已經講了數次了，可是這個SOP還是沒有建立起來。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，SOP就在那邊，那是公所的人裝傻，我敢這樣講，他們用被動的方式去處理。農業部目前有這樣由農民速報的方式，我們也保留一個彈性，我們可以主動公告，所以改良場其實非常辛苦，他們隨時在掌握這個狀況，這是第一點……"],["陳委員亭妃：就是因為你們還有另外一個叫主動公告……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以地方政府就說，你們都去找立委，立委可以叫農業部主動公告。問題是他們根本都沒有清楚到底所有的災損狀況如何，因為我們的災損要公告要到達20%，所謂的農業部直接公告，就像有天災，颱風一來，全部都吹倒，那就不用再說了，那個就可以主動公告，可是像這種有延遲性的，或是有天氣變化的，每一個地方都不一樣，所以就一定要由各區公所處理，那不是區公所裝傻，連農業局都在裝傻。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我會再跟地方政府做一個比較明確的指引，我覺得這個要要求。第二個部分就是您所關切的芒果部分，因為它有生理落果的現象，所以這相對的比較困難一點，我們會等生理落果的時候才會去確認……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啦！部長，我跟你說，他們都是專業的，現在它整個花都謝了就沒有果，哪裡還有什麼生理落果的狀況？所以我告訴你，你們不要用你們既定的，他們現在通報了，現在的狀況就是花謝了，結的果跟他們過去的果都不一樣，就像地瓜，你知道嗎？一個半月的地瓜本來是要這樣子，正常是這個樣子，可是這一次，在新市和新化，你知道變成怎樣？連一隻手指頭都不夠，連這隻手指頭都沒有辦法，跟過去的生長狀況都不一樣了，你要等什麼？你還要等什麼？好啦！部長，我現在……"],["陳部長駿季：我們有我們的專業團隊，改良場的專業團隊會去判斷……"],["陳委員亭妃：我告訴你，你們的專業程度都輸在基層、在第一線種植的農民啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得你這樣講，對我們研究人員是一種侮辱……"],["陳委員亭妃：我沒有侮辱喔！部長……"],["陳部長駿季：其實我們的同仁有專業喔！"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你這樣講，你要小心喔！我沒有侮辱喔！我都很尊重我們的基層人員，我哪一句話侮辱我們的基層人員……"],["陳部長駿季：您剛才說的……"],["陳委員亭妃：是你們要結合地方的聲音，你們過去都站在你們的專業立場，你們完全沒有跟地方結合，人家在地方種多久了？人家種多久了？"],["陳部長駿季：農民認為的災害不一定全部是災害……"],["陳委員亭妃：我告訴你，部長，就像我跟你講的，地瓜本來一個半月要這麼大塊，結果最後連一隻手指頭都不夠，過去它已經違反之前的生長季，現在它花謝之後，果完全沒有，那一看就知道了，這個我有看過，在之前，好幾年前的官田就是這個樣子。部長，你不用給我戴帽子，我都很尊重我們的基層人員……"],["陳部長駿季：不是、不是，我沒有給委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：我沒有不尊重，所以你不用給我戴帽子，我是站在農民的立場，我希望我們的專業人員也能夠聽到地方農民的聲音，這是我一直的堅持。從過去到現在，我的立場都一樣，我沒有侮辱任何一個專業人員，請部長也不要給我戴帽子。"],["陳部長駿季：我如果講侮辱冒犯您，我可以道歉。但是我對改良場的專業是有信心的。"],["陳委員亭妃：我時間有限！我再跟部長請教，後壁蘭花園區現在的人力編制跟組織編制到底怎麼解決？"],["陳部長駿季：目前我們就陳報中長程公共建設計畫，這是基礎建設，更重要就是人力組織的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：有，這個計畫過了。重點是你們的人力編制跟機關組織編制。"],["陳部長駿季：現在在行政院那邊……"],["陳委員亭妃：有錢、沒有人要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：行政院在審組織編制，不會這個禮拜送去，下個禮拜就下來了。"],["陳委員亭妃：什麼時候嘛？從去年就一直談這個議題，你去看我講蘭花園區。我告訴部長，我不是只有跟你講而已，從陳吉仲主委一直到現在，我們一直談的都是怎麼提高後壁蘭花園區的位階，不要讓它只有掛牌。現在花卉產業創新園區這個計畫已經進入公建計畫，沒錯！雖然有公建計畫、有預算，問題是人員、組織到底要等到什麼時候？現在的關卡在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：一個組織的轉變跟籌設不是我們報了以後，准了就下來……"],["陳委員亭妃：是，現在的關鍵在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：人總本身還要詢問各單位的意見，完了以後還要送到行政院。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們現在打算要讓它跟什麼結合？現在的組織編制……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在跟農業試驗所的花卉分所結合。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，你們跟花卉分所結合，所以農業部的人力都沒有問題，現在問題是在人事總處？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也會請增總人數。"],["陳委員亭妃：提升嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們的部分你們都檢討完了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們3月17號已經送到人總去了。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，你們都檢討完了，現在到底卡關卡在哪裡？人事總處？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在就是人總循程序，要去問各機關的意見。"],["陳委員亭妃：多久？不知道？"],["陳部長駿季：這個要人總那邊……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們3月17號送了？"],["陳部長駿季：我們該做的都做了。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們做了？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：蘭花園區的人力編制跟機關組織編制，你們3月17號就送了，現在在等行政院人事總處詢問每個地方的意見，你們有去接洽人事總處的意見如何嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：審議中。"],["陳委員亭妃：意見呢？"],["陳部長駿季：全部繞完了以後，他才會給我們意見，然後請我們提供意見，再送回去，因為一個組織要重新建立沒有那麼簡單。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們現在沒辦法掌控狀況？你能夠掌控的是你們現在資料都送出去了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們盡可能去說服這些意見。"],["陳委員亭妃：跟花卉試驗所結合的資料送出去了，然後提升人力、組織跟結合，就看人事總處怎麼處理了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，希望你隨時跟我報告狀況，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我會隨時把這個進度跟委員說明。"],["陳委員亭妃：可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：否則我們在這邊講得很大聲，然後人家又這樣「鰗鰡巡便空」，到底怎麼樣都不知道！"],["陳部長駿季：真正的啟動是在2月初，以這個速度來講，其實已經是蠻快的。"],["陳委員亭妃：2月份才啟動，我們已經講多久了？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["陳委員亭妃：我們講多久了？"],["陳部長駿季：講的過程裡面……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我們從去年就開始講了，講人力、組織……"],["陳部長駿季：這不是……對……"],["主席：請農業部把進度再告訴陳委員。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們就慢了半拍，我們從去年就開始講了！"],["陳部長駿季：如果行政院沒有同意，動都沒有用，所以我們花了很多時間跟人總溝通，這也是委員在幫忙的。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個我擺了那麼辛苦，拜託主席給我……這就是後壁蘭花園區……部長，你知道這是什麼嗎？"],["主席：等一下可以放在這裡。"],["陳委員亭妃：這是什麼嗎？你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這是蘭展的公仔。"],["陳委員亭妃：這叫什麼？你看你們都不知道！這叫什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：Orchid獸。"],["陳委員亭妃：再來呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我不知道。"],["陳委員亭妃：這叫我們的蘭花獸，Orchid獸叫蘭花獸，所以未來我們應該要把這個公仔推廣出去，這才是我們的重點，我們要用一個吉祥物代表後壁蘭花園區。"],["主席：陳委員，等一下可以把吉祥物放主席臺前面，就可以隨時入鏡。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。"],["主席：有進度，農業部再跟……謝謝陳亭妃委員。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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沒有登記那怎麼辦"},{"start":67.97,"end":86.098,"text":"那當然他就是接下來他就必須要沒有辦法執行相關的業務了你們還會再延長嗎?沒有這是定在法律裡面的所以如果實際有家沒有專業登記他們就不能執業那當然未來他可能就是假設我們專法以後他就按照我們專法來申請"},{"start":86.977,"end":101.492,"text":"那為什麼這有那麼多家的這個公司沒有辦法去在期間之內完成登記當然 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詐騙資金的有效追蹤跟凍結這很重要那你如果按照歐盟最近的規定未來這個交易中禁止3000歐元以上的匿名現金支付"},{"start":212.045,"end":241.503,"text":"我們未來很有可能對整個我們希望加強管理的話我們現在在規劃中希望未來我們對於虛擬幣的交易呢希望不要以現金的方式來做交易好那全部都用法人這樣子做法幣專務來做交易對整個詐騙金呢會有效的降低至少透明化還有就是說我有利於追蹤因為現金交易那這個部分什麼時候會完成呢我們現在的專法今天預告60天以後如果收集資料調整完畢我們的承諾是6月30號送進行政院"},{"start":243.22,"end":259.995,"text":"另外有接到很多的民眾的這些反應跟陳情就是說你如果在身心科就診他如果要申保會碰到很大的這個障礙跟問題這部分我不曉得主委有沒有接到類似的陳情或者請願"},{"start":261.736,"end":290.303,"text":"這個當然就是過去我們在住院給付裡面很多都是因為比如說因為精神疾病住院的部分在過去也引發過很多很多的這樣的一個考量所以確實這部分呢在保險的基本角度來看你必須要據實告知你的身體狀況的投稿件你是用廣義的所謂相關的身心的問題還是用很嚴格的醫學上面定義如果用廣義的說身心的問題我想在座大概80%的問題那當然就是"},{"start":290.683,"end":318.048,"text":"比如說我失眠問題大家都有對不對看到國會的亂象看到這個預算亂砍我都睡不著我也失眠了但是就說這個問題我覺得沒有他還是有一個明確的界限比如保險公司來看的話他是可是他會擴大解釋這是可能因為比如說我們從保險學理上面核保權本身就是保險公司篩選風險他有自己的裁量權"},{"start":319.068,"end":344.967,"text":"就跟銀行決定要不要貸款給這個人之間他會有一個裁量權那只是說假設已經過度的話就剛才講我們談到假設你真的能不能去重視這個問題定去一個明確的標準這個我會請保安局的同仁去了解一下現在有沒有一些過蕩或是一些比如說不明確的問題希望能夠做個釐清我會請我們保局的同仁去做個了解主席站起來了主席在經委會我也多給你兩分鐘"},{"start":347.829,"end":374.848,"text":"那我希望你也可以多給我一分半就好了一分半這個高雄的亞洲資產管理中心這個金融專區那當然是我們非常期待六年之內到2030年財務管理規模可以翻到60兆那這個政策在高雄推動REITS的資產類型多元化會更多的境內外的資金投入"},{"start":375.802,"end":386.938,"text":"那這個擺脫現有商辦跟商業地產為主的局限目前覺得目前上路到現在這個主委您覺得未來還有哪些要鬆綁的部分"},{"start":387.792,"end":403.839,"text":"其實跟委員報告一下就是說我們最近會公布的事辦方案我們基本上就是對接我們的競爭對手那我們做了非常非常多的放寬我想這個最近陸續也揭露出來的我們對財富管理業務對這個私人銀行業務對保險業務對證券業務我剛剛盤點至少超過20項的開放"},{"start":409.283,"end":437.568,"text":"這個有些是牽涉到我央行的業務也牽涉財政部的業務這個需要跨部位去協調我們現在最主要是先從金管會鎖匣來鬆綁央行也在部分呢在某些商品的部分也給我們做了開放那這部分像剛剛講那個稅的部分我們OSU 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楊瓊英我們不在"},{"start":463.742,"end":469.866,"text":"那麼報告委員會今日登記發言的委員均已巡打完畢因為在場委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1097,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時15分）謝謝主席。有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：我用客家話質詢好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以啊！"],["邱委員志偉：我還沒什麼把握。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我是講海陸，你……"],["邱委員志偉：我講四縣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以、可以，我聽得懂，但是我要用海陸回。"],["邱委員志偉：私底下聊天可以。","幾項問題請教主委，今天你們有預告VASP法草案嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["邱委員志偉：還是有幾個問題，按照洗錢防制法遵循聲明的相關規定，有23家要在3月底前向金管會提出登記。"],["彭主任委員金隆：提出申請。"],["邱委員志偉：對，否則不得再經營虛擬資產業務，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果沒有登記的話，就不具有人格。"],["邱委員志偉：離3月底只剩下一個禮拜，現在只有10家業者提出申請，包含4家既有的和6家新進的，還有19家尚未完成登記，假設月底之後這19家還是沒有登記，那怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然接下來他就沒有辦法執行相關的業務了。"],["邱委員志偉：你們還會再延長嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這是訂在法律裡面的。"],["邱委員志偉：OK，所以如果這19家沒有完成登記，他們就不能執業？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，假設我們專法過了以後，未來他就按照專法來申請。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼有那麼多家公司沒有辦法在期間之內完成登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，當時我們就是遵循全世界都是從洗錢防制的聲明開始，那個條件比較低……"],["邱委員志偉：對業者沒有負擔過重的問題，也沒有門檻過高的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該這樣講，後來我們希望逐步納管，當然加重了他們很多的資格條件以及資源投入，以前第一波的時候，只是先讓他來登記，浮上檯面，當然那個標準條件是比較低的，但是我們真的變登記制之後，政府的管控更嚴，等於說對他的承諾越高的時候，我當然要求標準就會更高，比如說，他要經過會計師的查核，這本來就是一個成本，很多人因此可能就選擇放棄。"],["邱委員志偉：是，您這樣說明我了解。另外，關於加密貨幣洗錢的風險，如果按照金管會的統計，詐騙攔阻金額將近100億，比去年增加百分之三十三，這種部分沒有辦法有效去嚇阻被詐騙的金額，能不能參照歐盟的作法，讓匿名加密貨幣交易能夠有一定的限度、有一定的禁止？您的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，未來我們專法納管有一個很重要的原則，就是我們要怎麼樣從實體的金融體系進入到虛擬的金融體系，假設透過專法的規定，我們在實體的金融體系進去的過程當中，就可以有效的去做到管控這一點。比如說，現在大部分的詐騙有幾條管道，一個是把錢匯出國外，一個就是匯入到虛擬世界以後就形成斷點。未來我們專法納管以後，當他從實體的金流進到虛擬世界的時候，我們就會有一個可以來管制的點。"],["邱委員志偉：對詐騙資金的有效追蹤跟凍結，這很重要啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["邱委員志偉：如果按照歐盟最近的規定，未來商業交易中將禁止3,000歐元以上的匿名現金支付。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們未來很有可能對整個……我們希望加強管理的話，我們現在在規劃中，未來對於虛擬幣的交易，我們希望不要以現金的方式來做交易，而是全部都用法幣專戶來做交易。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣子做會不會讓詐騙的金額有效降低？"],["彭主任委員金隆：至少可以透明化，還有就是有利於追蹤，因為現金交易……"],["邱委員志偉：這個部分什麼時候會完成？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在的專法是今天預告，60天以後如果蒐集資料、調整完畢，我們的承諾是6月30日送進行政院。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我接到很多民眾反映跟陳情，他說他在身心科就診，如果他要申保，會碰到很大的障礙跟問題，這部分不曉得主委有沒有接過類似的陳情或者請願？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去我們在住院給付裡面，很多比如說因精神疾病住院的部分，在過去也引發過很多很多的考量，不過站在保險的基本角度來看，你必須在投保前要據實告知你的身體狀況。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你是用廣義的所謂相關身心的問題，還是用很嚴格的醫學上的定義？如果用廣義的說身心問題，我想在座大概百分之八十都有問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，比如說……"],["邱委員志偉：像失眠問題大家可能都有，看到國會的亂象，看到預算被亂砍，我都睡不著，我也失眠了，而且我覺得……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，它還是有一個明確的界線，比如以保險公司來看的話，它是……"],["邱委員志偉：它會擴大解釋。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是可能的，比如說，我們從保險學理上面，核保權本身就是保險公司在篩選風險，它有自己的裁量權，就跟銀行決定要不要貸款給這個人之間會有一個裁量權，只是說假設已經過度的話，就是剛才我們談到假設你對……"],["邱委員志偉：你能不能去重視這個問題，訂出一個明確的標準？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我會請保險局的同仁去了解，現在有沒有一些過當或是一些情況，比如說有不明確的狀況，希望能夠做個釐清，我會請我們保險局同仁去做個了解。"],["邱委員志偉：主席站起來了，主席在經委會發言，我也有多給你兩多分鐘，你也可以多給我一分半就好了！高雄「亞洲資產管理中心」金融專區，當然我們非常期待，六年之內，到2030年，財務管理規模可以翻到60兆，這個政策要在高雄推動，而REITs資產類型多元化，會有更多境內外資金投入，擺脫現有商辦跟商業地產為主的侷限，自上路到現在，主委您覺得未來還有哪些要鬆綁的部分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實跟委員報告一下，我們最近會公布試辦方案，基本上就是對接我們的競爭對手，我們做了非常非常多的放寬，最近陸續也被揭露出來的，我們對財富管理業務、對私人銀行業務、對保險業務、對證券業務，我們盤點了至少超過二十項的開放。"],["邱委員志偉：這有些是牽涉到央行的業務，有些牽涉財政部的業務，需要跨部會去協調。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在最主要是先從金管會所轄來鬆綁，央行也在某些商品的部分給我們做了開放，像剛才所提稅的部分也有OSU、OIU，但是我們先針對金管會所轄的這些來做鬆綁，我想業界大概都已經覺得我們這次的開放具有實質性還有它的意義在。"],["邱委員志偉：比起日本跟新加坡，現在總市值還是偏低，那我們未來是要走新加坡模式還是日本模式？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們都不是，我們是綜合型，是按照臺灣的特色來走。"],["邱委員志偉：好，因為時間關係，以後有機會再跟你請教，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢。","下一位請楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","報告委員會，今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢，因為在場委員不足法定人數，有臨時提案1案，就不予處理。","報告委員會，本次會議作如下之決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請金管會在一週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。委員楊瓊瓔所提的書面資料，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請金管會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34518ee186499c78fc9336bc333af6bdb00b0900eab363510f103f035c999116f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:08:54 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鄭正前委員不在邱志偉委員請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1040,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時8分）謝謝主席，本席有請彭主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委你好。你應該還記得本席在總質詢的時候特別希望……"],["彭主任委員金隆：有問過時間。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我想沒有人想要被詐騙，所有不小心被詐騙的人就是希望錢能夠拿得回來，目前我們臺灣多了一個產業鏈叫做詐騙產業鏈，我們真的一定要好好來破解。首先我們想先看為什麼我們的金融體系沒有辦法有效的監管？詐團怎麼會有那麼多錢可以騙？您知道詐團最愛的銀行是哪一家嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我這邊不方便說啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不方便說，我就問你啊！因為還是要面對現實，詐團最愛的是哪一家？比例最高的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我不知道詐團最愛的，但是我知道警示帳戶比較多的金融機構。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然前一陣子有揭露，公股的也有，還有民營的也有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：據本席手上的資料，2024年，中華郵政（就是郵局）的警示帳戶有10,619個，3年之間暴增了4.8倍，好像變成詐團的提款機。再來就是官股銀行，那麼多間的官股銀行，其中前十大的警示帳戶也占了一半以上，我們看到唯一警示帳戶可以慢慢減少、好像有所改善的是中國信託。從這邊可以看出，如果我們金融機構願意配合防詐，效果應該是立竿見影。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們沒有具體有效的作為嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我們現在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在警示帳戶從通報到可以凍結大概要多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我上次跟委員問過以後，我們就把所有銀行問過一遍，他們大概就是……我們的規定叫立刻，但是他們平常的作業時間大概是5到20分鐘左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在20分鐘以內可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：5到20分鐘基本上大部分的銀行大概就完成，跟警政署那邊一樣，大概30分鐘之內幾乎都已經完成凍結了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們常常說「他山之石，可以攻錯」，可以見賢思齊，我們看到世界各國，其他國家做得好的，我們也可以參考。本席在總質詢的時候，雖然時間不是很多，但也有提到，跟我們整個的打詐，國內現在也已經整合出一個打詐的機構，我們金融機構的人可以進駐嗎？這一塊我們有開始在進行嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：進駐哪裡？"],["徐委員欣瑩：進駐打詐辦公室。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個組織本來就有，但是事實上在各個金融機構裡面，他自己就會來做防護。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以不需要進駐，效率一樣高嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是要溝通一些政策的時候，但日常的打詐都是由他們自己在做監控，還有就是我們自己的聯防機制。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們是希望您要去想，人家做得好，有哪些是我們可以效法的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們要加速。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們其實隨時……"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後詐騙的金額跟件數真的要減少。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，現在詐團也找到了一個新的洗錢天堂，你應該知道吧？虛擬貨幣跟個人幣商。針對這個部分，是不是目前百分之九十以上的虛擬貨幣交易是透過個人幣商進行？這些目前在臺灣是不是幾乎不受監管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這件事情到3月31日……應該這樣講，去年我們通過了洗錢防制法的修正，其實採登記制的截止以後，個人幣商就走入歷史了，接下來基本上就沒有所謂……"],["徐委員欣瑩：3月31日以前全部要登記嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是沒有登記然後還做這件事情的話，他就違反了法律的規定，剛剛有提到會有刑責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：刑責有加重嗎？重不重？"],["彭主任委員金隆：兩年。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們希望能夠積極進行。再來，我們是不是可以配合檢察體系想辦法追回贓款？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是我們努力的方向，就是我們現在對……像剛剛委員說我們的方案，我們有兩個，一個是我們由外而內，就是我們裡面有要求……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你扣押可疑資金的速度快不快？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果他今天是被詐騙、被凍結，那就可以；但是比如說剛剛委員有提到，很多投資詐騙是當你想到這件事情的時候都是幾個月之後了，通常那個都是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，有些人是這樣，投下去以後，好像突然覺得怪怪的，也是有這種人吧！他馬上覺得不對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對啊，所以比如說我們對約轉帳戶一定要兩天以後才能生效，就是很多的措施都會針對這些事情來處理。不過委員關切的部分，我們也看到從11月、12月、1月、2月，整個數字就降下來，從最高126億到現在60億。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請問有沒有把追回贓款列為金融機構績效獎勵指標？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在監控的時候就兩個，一個是要讓警示帳戶下架，第二個是追回的款項能夠成為我們鼓勵的方向。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你們有沒有這個獎勵指標？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經在訂了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼時候出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經在執行中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。最後請教一下，你是客家人嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是客家人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我想說姓彭的好像大部分是客家人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是客家人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea3423e5f6cf04938b599336bc333af6bdb00b0900eab363510f3b03e28eaf265d4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:01:57 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部長零一二一的這個災後的復原跟復興非常重要那您有下去看一些水果藻類的部分那我也有請輔導師的陳俊元市長下去對照於零四零三這是基本的態度行政院院長已經對外宣布過了可是我們要比對一下農業部門零四零三跟零一二一的差別性"},{"start":40.652,"end":67.241,"text":"林士林山的部分農業部一個月的時候就說投入呢宣布投入14億1830萬協助花蓮災區復原再出發其中有9.9億用在公共設施經費當然就包括農會相關設施包括公糧肥料倉庫啦超市啦辦公設備空間啦的這個重建但是現在台南喔已經一個月了沒聲沒水"},{"start":68.996,"end":90.949,"text":"差這麼多 為什麼這總共的經費不過是兩億而已陳市長在你旁邊碎碎念 他有去看過玉井農會有沒有嚴重 嚴重南化農會有沒有嚴重 南溪農會有沒有嚴重 大內總共加起來18家耶 目前都沒有消息部長"},{"start":91.977,"end":112.315,"text":"你要不要表示一下我跟威廉報告喔其實在第一時間的時候我也簽字到農會包括南興南化農會去看是那跟0403比起來我覺得最大的差別就是0403的時候那個行政院在第一時間就就公告為災區那因為公告為災區的話現在是災區啊我們有公告啊沒有那"},{"start":113.41,"end":133.77,"text":"那個0121我們有公告啦沒有那是最近才公告的沒有那也公告了嘛最後才公告公告一段時間了啦沒關係啦你繼續說你繼續說然後現在重點就是說其實這您所關心的包括農會的部分其實在這段時間我們已經收集了所有他2月25號就提案了就送上去了喔這進度有在追喔"},{"start":134.35,"end":153.794,"text":"我們相關的輔導措施都已經在處理包括他他要重蓋的時候找臨時的廁所的部分那現在最主要是一旦公告災區的時候那第一個部分就是可以動用到本來是台南市的災損金加上 那另外啦那個不夠 民宅就不夠了公共設施中央要協助啦 人家都不要想像那個以前0206一條街"},{"start":156.815,"end":175.92,"text":"不是 現在就是說行政院的經費預算怎麼 咱都不能影響到救災啦 院長已經講了啦我當然同意這樣子 所以我們會跟內政部那邊的經費 我們會來協助內政部啊 內政部 你現在又問你的態度嘛你當初花蓮就給了14億多嘛 為什麼台南都沒有 當時要選不"},{"start":178.981,"end":187.894,"text":"這個部分喔因為我們經費的動資因為他中央公告了以後我們報上去他同意了你報上去了嗎報上去了嗎現在內政部現在在彙整"},{"start":190.012,"end":209.629,"text":"會診 你還沒報上去沒有 我們已經報上去了你們報上去報多少應該我們報多少我們對於這個對於農會的部分就他災損的額度就是這些鄉鎮都有報上去2億已經報上去了要說一下速度好不好第二個 那個部長不只是復原還有復興你還花了2.4億"},{"start":215.488,"end":229.14,"text":"來作為花蓮那時候的一個振興喔為什麼我強調因為花蓮跟我現在所屬的宅區的部分兩個都一樣靠農業靠觀光你還發了農粉幣250元70萬張總經費1.5億而且再加上其他的部分總共振興計畫2.4億這邊要不要發"},{"start":239.31,"end":263.726,"text":"我想花蓮花那個農產品最主要是它交通中斷變成一個隔離我們那邊也有交通也有受到影響光光都掉了五成那個措施不一樣不一樣你要想辦法不一樣你就不用振興了嗎我們很願意去協助它的一個相關的農產品行銷的部分這一次不是天災而已欸還有兩次天災還有包括這個低溫降雨的部分也造成打擊雙重打擊欸"},{"start":265.507,"end":268.529,"text":"對啊我們天然災害的部分我們沒問題處理天然災害灰灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘灘�"},{"start":291.412,"end":301.538,"text":"應該可以立即 我想我這個禮拜這個禮拜我想我會跟我們同盟討論這個禮拜好不好 這禮拜給我一個答覆給你一個答覆 大概用什麼方向大概用什麼方向 有人家都沒有 一人都沒有最後我再問你一下因為這一次呢 降雨的風窟不均"},{"start":310.504,"end":325.068,"text":"所以以至於這一個過去的擴大灌區非常的重要農田農水署做得不錯啦但是三座不夠啦後面還有五加四座的部分啦什麼時候給錢什麼時候到位什麼時候開始做這個我是不是可以請我們的來 組長請蔡組長"},{"start":328.169,"end":348.069,"text":"是 非常感謝委員的關心 那在委員的支持之下 那我們的第一期 那個三座之選是完成的那第二期因為用地也都第二期用地已經取得了 我知道那接下來是五座 那部長有特別指示 後續要特別的加強所以我們預計在今年六月 那麼就可以開工五家市一併規劃啦"},{"start":350.091,"end":371.818,"text":"是 共同進行啦你現在的極端氣候這種情況底下合併三四五呢是 委員指導得很好因為我們第二期就是把這個系統二跟系統三合併發包對 就是要合併嘛那我們如果系統四跟系統五那如果用地也能夠取得的話我們會隨時再加進來以上好 那請部長支持最後部長再請教一個"},{"start":373.598,"end":390.729,"text":"對整個台南牛肉湯這個特技的產業影響非常之大的部分就是台牛協定影響牛肉湯現在整個這個行情每公斤140元已經漲到170了而整個飼牛的產業從817變693場市場市越來越少喔這種情況底下以後呢量少就會價高"},{"start":399.975,"end":428.175,"text":"所以我是說啊 這個是有影響啊影響到整個庶民經濟啊也影響到台南的觀光的動能啊部長 這個我之前就請教過了是關鍵點是什麼你知道嗎關鍵點就是你要確保乳牛的肉源不至於減少你不要去找替代人員的啊黃牛稍微都沒好啦你聽我意思嗎但是現實上就是一直在減少啊"},{"start":429.54,"end":446.922,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 依我們現在目前針對這個牛屠宰的數量來講齁他去年反而比前年還高啦哪有 去年淘汰的第一個乳牛是4204頭今年育智只有3700沒有 我用屠宰的數量是最準的啦"},{"start":447.422,"end":459.12,"text":"去年是41673 四萬一千六百七十三頭前年是四萬一千五百四十頭所以基本上那個屠宰量是相對維護增加你不要短期性的我希望你能夠保這個量"},{"start":460.311,"end":480.92,"text":"對 我還希望說把這個量維持著維持住對 這個維持著才不會影響到整個牛肉糖產業好不好也不會影響到整個台南觀光的動能了解嗎我了解委員的關心所以我們在乳牛轉成屠宰變成牛肉的湯圓這兩個要平衡這個要平衡是 好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席給我這麼久的時間謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時2分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，0121災後的復原跟復興非常重要，你有下去看一些水果、棗類的部分，我也有請輔導司的陳俊言司長下去。對照0403這是基本的態度，行政院院長已經對外宣布過了，可是我們來比對一下農業部門0403跟0121的差別性。","0403的部分，農業部1個月的時候就宣布投入14億1,830萬協助花蓮災區復原再出發，其中有9.9億用在公共設施，經費當然就包括農會相關設施，包括公糧、肥料、倉庫、超市、辦公設備空間的重建。但是現在臺南已經1個月了，還是沒消沒息，差這麼多！為什麼總共的經費不過2億而已……陳次長一直在旁邊碎碎唸，你也有去看過，玉井農會有沒有嚴重？嚴重。南化農會有沒有嚴重？楠西農會有沒有嚴重？大內農會呢？總共加起來18家目前都沒有消息。部長，你要不要表示一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實我在第一時間也親自到農會，包括楠西、南化農會去看。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳部長駿季：跟0403比起來，我覺得最大的差別就是在0403的時候，行政院在第一時間就公告為災區，因為公告為災區的話，所有的……"],["郭委員國文：現在也是災區，我們有公告啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，0121……"],["郭委員國文：0121也有公告啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，那是最近才公告的。"],["郭委員國文：也公告了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是最後才公告的。"],["郭委員國文：也公告一段時間了啦！沒關係啦，你繼續說。"],["陳部長駿季：現在的重點就是，其實您所關心的，包括農會的部分，在這段時間我們已經蒐集了所有的資料……"],["郭委員國文：它2月25號提案就送上去了，這個進度我有在追喔！"],["陳部長駿季：我們相關的輔導措施都已經在處理，包括要重蓋的時候找臨時處所的部分，現在最主要的是，一旦公告為災區，第一個部分就是可以動用到本來是臺南市的災損金，加上……"],["郭委員國文：那個是另外啦！那個不夠，民宅就不夠了，公共設施中央要協助啦！大家都在肖想早前0206那筆錢，但國家又不是沒錢。"],["陳部長駿季：現在就是行政院的經費……"],["郭委員國文：預算怎麼刪都不能影響到救災，院長已經講了啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我當然同意，所以我們會跟內政部那邊的經費……我們會來協助。"],["郭委員國文：內政部是內政部，現在是在問你的態度，當初花蓮你就給了十四億多，為什麼臺南都沒有？何時要宣布？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，因為我們經費的動支，中央公告以後，我們報上去，它同意我們才可以動支。"],["郭委員國文：你報上去了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：內政部現在在彙整。"],["郭委員國文：彙整？你還沒報上去？都一個多月了！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們已經報上去了。"],["郭委員國文：你們報上去是報多少？"],["陳司長俊言：對於農會的部分，是就它災損的額度，這些鄉鎮都有送上去。"],["郭委員國文：2億已經報上去了？"],["陳司長俊言：對。"],["郭委員國文：催一下速度好不好？"],["陳司長俊言：是。"],["郭委員國文：第二個，部長，不只是復原還有復興，你還花了2.4億作為花蓮那時候的振興。為什麼我要強調？因為花蓮跟我現在所屬災區的部分，兩個都一樣，都是靠農業、靠觀光。你還發了農粉幣250元，70萬張，總經費1.5億，而且再加上其他的部分，振興計畫總共是2.4億，這邊要不要發？"],["陳部長駿季：我想花蓮發農粉幣最主要是它的交通中斷，變成一個隔離。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳部長駿季：臺南的地震……"],["郭委員國文：我們那邊的交通也有受到影響，觀光就掉了五成。"],["陳部長駿季：對，但經費的措施不一樣。"],["郭委員國文：不一樣？不一樣你要想辦法啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們很願意……"],["郭委員國文：不一樣你就不用振興了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們很願意去協助相關農產品行銷的部分。"],["郭委員國文：這一次還不只是兩次天災而已，還要包括低溫降雨造成的雙重打擊耶！"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！天然災害的部分，我們沒問題……"],["郭委員國文：天然災害歸天然災害，後面行銷的部分要怎麼振興嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來協助後面的行銷，但不是用農粉幣的方式。"],["郭委員國文：那你的方案呢？有關花蓮交通的部分，交通部已經答應了，那你們農業部的部分怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也可以提出一些振興的方案。"],["郭委員國文：對，我就是要聽你的這個。"],["陳部長駿季：但不是用農粉幣，而是用其他的方式處理。"],["郭委員國文：對，不一定是農粉幣，但至少也要有一個因地制宜的振興方案嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以來做一些振興的方案。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候提？"],["陳部長駿季：應該可以立即提，我想我這個禮拜……"],["郭委員國文：好，就這個禮拜。"],["陳部長駿季：這個禮拜我跟同仁討論完……"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，這個禮拜你給我一個答復。"],["陳部長駿季：給你一個答復，大概用什麼方向……"],["郭委員國文：同樣都是地震，怎麼差這麼多？人家花蓮有的為什麼我們都沒有，而且是一項都沒有，對不對？","最後我要再問你一下，因為這次降雨的豐枯不均，以至於過去的擴大灌區非常地重要，農水署做得不錯，但是3座不夠，後面還有5加4座的部分，什麼時候給錢？什麼時候到位？什麼時候開始做？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我是不是可以請我們的……"],["郭委員國文：來，是不是請蔡署長？"],["蔡署長昇甫：非常感謝委員的關心，在委員的支持之下，我們第一期的3座蓄水池……"],["郭委員國文：完工了。"],["蔡署長昇甫：第二期的用地也都……"],["郭委員國文：第二期的用地已經取得了，我知道。"],["蔡署長昇甫：接下來是5座，部長也特別指示，後續要特別加強，所以我們預計在今年6月就可以開工。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，5加4要一併規劃，共同進行啦！在現在極端氣候的情況底下，何必分三、四、五呢？"],["蔡署長昇甫：委員指導得很好，因為我們第二期就是把系統二跟系統三合併發包。"],["郭委員國文：對，就是要合併嘛！"],["蔡署長昇甫：如果系統四跟系統五的用地也能夠取得的話，我們會隨時改進。以上。"],["郭委員國文：好，請部長支持。"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定支持。"],["郭委員國文：部長，最後我要再請教，對整個臺南牛肉湯這個特定的產業影響非常大的部分，就是臺紐協定會影響到牛肉湯啦！現在整個的行情已從每公斤140元漲到170元，而整個飼牛的產業從817場變693場，場數是愈來愈少的。在這種情況底下，以後量少就會價高，所以我是說，這是有影響的，影響到整個庶民經濟，也影響到臺南觀光的動能。部長，這個我之前就請教過了，關鍵點是什麼你知道嗎？關鍵點就是，你要確保乳牛的肉源不至於減少。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：你不要去找替代的肉源了，黃牛什麼的都沒用啦！你聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：但是現實上就是一直在減少啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，依我們目前針對牛屠宰的數量來講，它去年反而比前年還高。"],["郭委員國文：哪有？去年淘汰的乳牛有4,204頭，今年預計只有3,700，未來只會繼續下探。"],["陳部長駿季：我用屠宰的數量是最準的，去年是4萬1,673頭，前年是4萬1,540頭，所以基本上，那個屠宰量是相對微幅增加的。"],["郭委員國文：好，你不要短期性的，我希望你能夠保這個量……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們希望……"],["郭委員國文：保持這個量……"],["陳部長駿季：把這個量維持著……"],["郭委員國文：維持住……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個維持著，所以乳牛的淘汰……"],["郭委員國文：才不會影響到整個牛肉湯產業，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解……"],["郭委員國文：不會影響到整個臺南觀光的動能，了解嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解委員的關心，所以我們在乳牛轉成屠宰牛肉的……"],["郭委員國文：對，這個很關鍵……"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個要平衡。"],["郭委員國文：這個要balance……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：好不好？謝謝部長……"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝主席給我這麼久的時間，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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在黨委員間間列席的政府機關使用官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請農業部陳部長好 有請部長永旭市的莊司長 農糧署姚署長和農經署的李署長好 莊司長 姚署長跟李署長"},{"start":38.697,"end":62.607,"text":"好 部長好 署長好 市長好 天災救助一作物類別分類分歧 檳榔肺源轉設施農業兼綠電 好 我們來看一下 部長來 為什麼交農要控訴這個王文威委員這樣的一段話 害慘了交農的收購價為什麼 一斤一百塊發布之後 為什麼交農底下寫 哎呀 害我們的拍賣市場價格沒有辦法正常 為什麼"},{"start":66.024,"end":94.533,"text":"去年我們遭遇到了上個颱風然後今年度我們那個溫低溫造成的是不是天災交農收成減少供應量不足對不對那請問這樣的結果收購價恰降了跌產了消費者買到廉價香蕉嗎量價齁量量收購價產地收購價恰跌了消費市場有買到便宜的香蕉嗎往下一頁為什麼盤商因為天然災害供應量減他當然價格他會提高啊"},{"start":95.646,"end":110.12,"text":"對不對 林鄭要提高啊 可是她又用新聞操作又灌跌了收購價 拜託部長 請署長要去關切一下不要讓媒體或有些錯誤的報導影響到產地農民的收益 可以嗎"},{"start":111.018,"end":128.491,"text":"可以我想我們會持續關切這個產銷的一個之間的那個鏈結好我們往下看齁這個在去年呢我們屏東其實不只屏東各地的因為天災農民損失慘重請問部長天然災害的救助金農損救助金是幫農民復耕還是幫他彌平所有他災害的損失"},{"start":129.366,"end":147.379,"text":"我想天然災害救助金額 最主要是協助它能夠盡量的 盡快的復耕但是如果收成損失了 那要靠農業保險嘛 是這樣 往下看所以目前我們要知道 作物有短期作物 有長期作物復耕期短"},{"start":148.18,"end":163.886,"text":"他每次復耕又來添災 每次復耕來添災但是我們貴署的規定一年只能補一次長期作物又不同了長期作物他可能收穫錢損失跟在耕作的時候的損失那麼作物的週期長短不一復耕的需求也不一樣"},{"start":164.446,"end":181.436,"text":"你們怎麼樣定我們的救助的一些頻率我跟委員報告基本上我們是用作物的生產季為一個單位以生產作為單位對 像短期的話它可能一個月一次對那一季一季它如果下個月再遇到的話它還是可以所以它是用生產季那長期作物的話"},{"start":182.436,"end":196.937,"text":"過去是用歷年為單位那後來我們跟所有的討論就還是以生長季為單位所以落實下去大概六個作物做了調整請農糧署要跟農民宣布不然很多農民都以為說只能補一次好不好"},{"start":199.718,"end":224.274,"text":"這個其實我們已經公告了公告後要加強宣傳我們是用生長劑為單位以生長劑來做一個天災救助的週期好 往下看好 濱南會員轉座 昨天跟你談了很久成效怎麼樣持續的努力在做這些肺炎的工作那你想為什麼農民他不願意"},{"start":225.236,"end":248.804,"text":"那最主要是因為是轉做一個空窗期長嗎?不是,檳榔本身它的一個付出的勞力比較低然後它的價格的部分所以基本上它的因為你廢原以後它復耕時間會比較長也造成它的影響兩個原因,第一個它現在撤掉了,它就沒修理嘛,對不對?所以空窗期沒有收入嘛"},{"start":249.324,"end":267.753,"text":"第二個轉作的新作物他的預期效益,不知道啊,我現在種綠萊,我現在種其他的東西,我不知道會比平衡還好嗎?是不是這樣?所以確定未來轉作的農作的收益,對農民很重要,農民才會知道說我轉作什麼,會賺錢,會比平衡還好,來往下看來,哪一種的作物的收益高?貴鳥、薑、芹菜"},{"start":270.99,"end":298.686,"text":"來 市長可以幫忙講 來 哪些比較高現在國際市場Q通好賣啦貴賣是外銷市場啦 金財是國內都不中啦他們有什麼共同特性他是市場需求高 對不對 作物週期短品質要求高 價格也不錯重要的 他是不是要一個高強度的設施內的栽培好 那現在設施栽培來往下看老農他負擔得起設施農業的高門檻嗎"},{"start":300.994,"end":324.583,"text":"你們可以幫助嗎?我們有增加那個補助的一個比例我告訴你,你不管怎麼幫助,不會超過三分之一啦但是三分之一都不用出啦,它出不去了所以呢,簡單結論來跟你講齁其實,設施農業,它如果種了高價值的作物如果說能夠屋頂型的光電搭配,來補充它的收益這個屋頂型的光電可以取代設施農業它的結構"},{"start":326.585,"end":333.743,"text":"這個是很清楚的所以呢我看莊老達市長一直在點頭所以這樣的方法設置農業跟光電結合農業部支不支持"},{"start":337.155,"end":361.624,"text":"所以我們的結論就是這樣子為什麼把農金署的書商找來?青農有技術沒有錢老農有地沒有錢但是農企業他能夠有訂單有技術有勞力找青農的勞動力配合上年老的地主的檳榔員然後找到光電業者來上面減輕他的設施的投資共創市營您覺得這個方式可以做嗎?"},{"start":362.554,"end":379.209,"text":"我覺得這個想法非常好,我們可以逐步地落實所以檳榔啊,檳榔才要被會員轉作,一定要往什麼?設施、農業去思考所以結論,我們的作物週期長短不一,你們復根的天災救助你剛才說了,按照它的行動的整體來計算,對不對?是確定嗎?是另外"},{"start":384.093,"end":389.618,"text":"所以最後請你承諾,設置實作的園區,你去找一塊地,讓這裡的農企業有辦法去種好的植物來,高級的植物來,請他們進來,種給農民看,種這裡看到種幾年會賺錢,種前期會賺錢,種後期會賺錢,這樣他們才有可能把他們的平衡方法,"},{"start":405.834,"end":432.311,"text":"跟這裡的容器業跟這裡的青龍跟這裡的光電合作有這件事嗎?我想我們會找適當的地點然後結合當地的地主還有一些願意實際耕作的甚至於有些光電業者可以上面可以附帶光電成立一個小的一個示範場域那後面的示範場域後面幾個董事要找喔?永續是要找喔?我們農糧署要找喔?農金署要找喔?趕快做起來做一個專案稍後來推出這個方案好不好?這個我們朝這個方向來做"},{"start":434.673,"end":436.461,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位司長 署長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":635,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時55分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：永續司的莊司長、農糧署姚署長和農經署的李署長。"],["主席：好，莊司長、姚署長跟李署長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好、司長好。今天的題目是「天災救助依作物類別分類分期，檳榔廢園轉設施農業兼綠電」。好，我們來看一下。部長，為什麼蕉農要控訴王鴻薇委員這樣一段話害慘了蕉農的收購價，一斤100塊，發布之後，為什麼蕉農底下寫：哎呀，害我們的拍賣市場價格沒辦法正常？為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：去年我們遭遇到了三個颱風，然後今年度我們低溫造成的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是因為天災，蕉農收成減少，供應量不足，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問這樣的結果，收購價下降了、跌慘了，消費者有買到廉價香蕉嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：量價……"],["鍾委員佳濱：產地收購價下跌了，消費市場有買到便宜的香蕉嗎？為什麼盤商因為天然災害供應量減？他當然價格會提高啊，對不對？理論上會提高啊！可是他又用新聞操作，又灌低了收購價。拜託部長，請署長要去關切一下，不要讓媒體或有些錯誤的報導影響到產地農民的收益，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我們會持續關切產銷之間的鏈接。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。去年我們屏東，其實不只屏東，各地因為天災，農民損失慘重。請問部長，天然災害的救助金、農損救助金是幫農民復耕，還是幫他弭平所有的災害損失？"],["陳部長駿季：天然災害救助金最主要是協助他能夠儘快復耕……"],["鍾委員佳濱：儘快復耕嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，儘快復耕。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有種子的錢。但是如果收成損失了，那要靠農業保險嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。目前我們知道作物有短期作物、有長期作物，復耕期短，他每次復耕又來天災，每次復耕又來天災，但是我們過去的規定是一年只能補一次，長期作物又不同了，長期作物可能有收穫的損失跟耕作時候的損失，作物的週期長短不一，復耕的需求也不一樣，你們怎麼樣訂定救助的一些頻率？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，基本上我們是用作物的生產季為一個單位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以生產週期為單位？"],["陳部長駿季：對。像短期的話，它可能一個月一次，一季、一季，如果下個月再遇到的話，還是可以補助，所以它是用生產季。"],["鍾委員佳濱：長期的呢？"],["陳部長駿季：長期作物的話，過去是用曆年為單位，後來我們討論之後，就還是以生長季為單位，我們大概有六個作物做了調整。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，落實下去！請農糧署要跟農民宣布，不然很多農民都以為只能補一次，好不好？宣布了嗎？通知了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個其實我們已經公告了，像荔枝、龍眼、蓮霧等部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要加強宣導。"],["陳部長駿季：我們是用生長季為單位來認定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！以生長季來做一個天災救助的週期。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。檳榔廢園轉作，昨天跟你談了很久，成效怎麼樣？為什麼成效不彰？"],["陳部長駿季：持續努力在做這些廢園的工作。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你想為什麼農民不願意？"],["陳部長駿季：最主要是因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為的空窗期長嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是。檳榔本身付出的勞力比較低，還有價格的部分。基本上廢園以後復耕時間會比較長，也造成他的影響。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，簡單講，兩個原因，第一個，他現在砍掉了，他就沒有收入了，對不對？所以空窗期沒有收入。第二個，轉作的新作物，它的預期效應不知道啊！我現在種其他的東西，我不知道會不會比檳榔的價格更好，是不是這樣？所以確定未來轉作的農作收益對農民很重要，農民才會知道轉作什麼會賺錢、會比檳榔更好。哪一種作物的收益高？過貓、薑、芹菜？署長可以幫忙講，哪些比較高？"],["陳部長駿季：看季節，過貓可能比較……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在國際市場薑最好賣，過貓是外銷市場，芹菜是國內都不足。"],["陳部長駿季：對啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：它們有什麼共通特性？它是市場需求高，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：作物週期短、品質要求高，價格也不錯，重要的是，它是不是要一個高強度的設施內的栽培？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。老農負擔得起設施農業的高門檻嗎？你們可以幫助他嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有增加補助的比例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你說，你們不管怎麼幫助也不會超過三分之一，但是三分之一農民也要出，而他們出不起。所以簡單的結論來跟你講，其實設施農業，他如果種了高價值的作物，如果能夠以屋頂型光電搭配以補充他的收益，這個屋頂型的光電可以取代設施農業的結構，這個是很清楚的。我看莊老達司長一直在點頭，設施農業跟光電結合這樣的方法農業部支不支持？"],["陳部長駿季：支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：支持就往下看。所以我們的結論是這樣子，為什麼要把農金署的署長找來？青農有技術沒有錢、老農有地沒有錢，但是農企業能夠有訂單、有技術、有勞力，找青農的勞動力，配合年老地主的檳榔園，然後找到光電業者來上面減輕他們對設施的投資，共創四贏。您覺得這個方式可以做嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這個想法非常好，我們可以逐步來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：檳榔種苗要廢園轉作，一定要往設施農業去思考，所以結論：我們的作物週期長短不一，你剛才說你們復耕的天災救助會按照它成長過程的長短來計算，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：確定嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後請你承諾，設置實作的園區，你去找一塊地讓這些農企業有辦法種出好的作物、高級的作物。請他們進來種給農民看，當他們真的看到種過貓會賺錢、種芹菜會賺錢、種薑會賺錢，這樣他們才有可能把他們的檳榔園拿來跟這些農企業、跟這些青農、跟這些光電來合作。支持嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會找適當的地點，然後結合當地的地主，還有一些願意實際耕作的，甚至於有些光電業者，上面可以附帶光電的，成立一個小的示範場域。"],["鍾委員佳濱：後面的示範場域，後面幾個人都要同時找喔！永續司要找、農糧署要找、農金署要找，把他們組織起來做一個專案小組，推動這個方案，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會朝這個方向來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝部長、謝謝各位司長、署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","下一位請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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一直到他過世都沒辦法進到這個都更案裡面來安享萬年 都沒辦法這個他的總銷戶是497戶啦"},{"start":191.803,"end":219.131,"text":"那第一個我要說的是一開始啊這個案子為什麼涉及炸彈呢他是找安信建金公司這家泰坤建設找安信建金辦理那麼安信建金很可能某個程度跟他們有默契合作竟然詐騙這些參與都更的"},{"start":220.471,"end":242.171,"text":"無主們 住戶們如果跟他們說來用信託的方式但是安信建金既非銀行業 更非信託業他怎麼可以來做信託業務呢這第一點 這個要查的部分第二點 就是說"},{"start":244.932,"end":270.913,"text":"融資給他的金額這些融資專款要進到信託戶啊那結果成立了信託戶竟然貸款給他的這些金額通通沒有進到信託戶這第二大錯誤喔第三點"},{"start":273.033,"end":289.267,"text":"這原來主辦這個連帶的銀行是合作金庫那合作金庫的問題我另外講合作金庫先前就涉及很多大型大金額的詐貸案比方說列了一件大家很清楚嗎"},{"start":291.257,"end":305.63,"text":"那其他幾個大金額的我就不講我講上百億的就光列了一件那個的危害不但危害我們國家金融銀行行庫這樣的損失而且還妨礙到"},{"start":307.071,"end":331.489,"text":"我們國家安全 列雷劍的製造結果竟然遙遙無期就被那個惡劣的慶富公司捲走了一百多億現在人逃到中共去啊 逃到中國大陸去啊你看這多可惡的事情同樣在列雷劍上面動手腳的這一群"},{"start":333.066,"end":362.278,"text":"我剛剛提到的合作金庫他們的高層同樣現在也涉及這個太困難天啊那後來當然這個被發現怪怪的因為他做成了這個案子以後就跑到土地銀行去啦結果接手的合庫董事長很不錯他發現這個有問題趕快那個金額沒有全部再放出去又把他停止"},{"start":363.325,"end":378.039,"text":"停止之後這一群竄逃到土營去的人他們又另起爐灶又把這個案子接手過去做那這個真的是很可惡的事情"},{"start":378.939,"end":403.927,"text":"那可惡的事情還一條就是說竟然還被爆出而且實質被查出來喔竟然在這一些大型行庫之間穿梭啊 擔任白手套的人竟然是個 哇 自稱國師的在看土地的 看風水的侏羅山人天啊 曾幾何時"},{"start":405.848,"end":430.135,"text":"看風水的竟然涉入這種炸彈的穿梭而且還涉入這些銀行高層人士轉來轉去不可思議的事情欸好了 那就我舉個例子喔還有個可惡的事情在他們的人士穿梭下參與連帶的有土銀"},{"start":434.153,"end":445.421,"text":"先前和庫轉到土銀連帶裡面的一家連帶銀行也是我們公營航庫台灣中小企銀他參與這個連帶案竟然還推薦管理人"},{"start":452.591,"end":463.205,"text":"高階的管理人推薦給這家太坤公司天啊去幫他們做什麼這個太坤啊這個集團還出了這一張"},{"start":467.908,"end":493.728,"text":"就聘請這一位先生蔡先生啦中小企業的蔡先生到這邊幫他們做什麼呢做行政管理業務總務法務還有做什麼會計出納財務管理天啊那跟銀行貸款就是財務管理啊竟然有連帶行我們的公營行庫"},{"start":496.653,"end":509.858,"text":"把人介紹到他那邊然後去擔任這麼高階的工作這個位階可能比總經理還高啦好啦那我現在要問的就是說"},{"start":510.734,"end":539.838,"text":"第一個我們金管會是不是應該因為現在這個案子已經到司法單位了那這個地檢署也已經起訴了但是那是司法調查行政調查的部分應該由金管會接手我們要下去辦第二點我希望辦得快速做的行政調查跟行政處分要能夠快過司法調查才有道理司法調查"},{"start":540.518,"end":563.494,"text":"然後這一群人 這一群這幾家銀行這些高層現在這家泰坤改名改一個字叫泰雲那負責人朱婉清就是先前泰坤負責人這位楊岳修負責人董事長"},{"start":564.893,"end":589.314,"text":"是他公司的職員而且他這一位朱婉清女士還是詐欺的前科犯耶天啊那我為什麼提到這個那他改名太原公司就算了另外一家公司重啟爐灶幹什麼他們又要去板橋要去談一個都更案那個面積"},{"start":592.437,"end":597.141,"text":"1171坪 涉及的 它地上蓋24層 地下要蓋5層又涉及那麼多的民眾住戶來參與都更"},{"start":606.141,"end":634.836,"text":"那如果再一次的被他們得逞你看有多少住戶多少民眾會對都更絕望失望絕望難怪我們現在都更到處處處碰壁很難有真正要做都更的人能夠成功的去做成都更因為都被這些炸彈集團炸彈的二職建商那他們"},{"start":636.789,"end":659.615,"text":"去毀壞掉啦那當然今天時間有限我希望說你能夠最短時間內齁我最後那個主席我最後強調一點然後有一個任務我希望那個彭書煒你能夠處理就是說是不是是不是你要督促這些銀行除了查這些事以外是不是請這些銀行要幫"},{"start":661.495,"end":684.006,"text":"這些參與都更無辜受害的這些民眾他們現在成立自救會他們這個房屋土地都交出來了現在能夠住進去遙遙無期所以這個部分是不是銀行能夠幫助他們怎麼樣達成交屋然後分屋貸款他們也同意做分屋貸款"},{"start":684.666,"end":700.801,"text":"那這個部分是不是能夠幫幫這個自救會好 那我希望你在最短的期限內後調查清楚以後能夠給本席一個答覆好不好是一個調查的報告可不可以可以 沒問題好 謝謝謝謝王委員質詢下面請張祺凱委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":974,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時49分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，我看你上任到現在為止的表現，其實我給你的分數是90分，我認為你確實是任勞任怨，也很實質在做對金管業務的推動，這一點我是很肯定你。尤其是對薯條三兄弟，把它納入金保法，給他們一個從良的機會，那他們也這麼做了，只是後續的推動，薯條三兄弟似乎並沒有很誠意跟有受到委屈的貸款戶做債務協商，當然後續我們會再來推，再進一步的就是金融租賃公司的專法來管理他們。","今天我要跟你談的這個案子，我是希望我們金管會下去做行政調查，能夠做行政處分，就是關於一個叫做泰坤建設他們做的一個大的聯貸案，它的建案名稱叫「泰舍至善元」，這是一個滿龐大的，兩千三百多坪土地的都更案。這個都更案竟然涉及龐大金額的詐貸案，總共貸款金額86億，現在已經被銀行打入逾放的部分就已經有58億之多，那這個部分受傷害最嚴重的不是銀行，銀行還其次，最大的受害人是這個都更案裡面的原住戶、原地主們，早知道那他不要參與都更就好啊！參與都更，舊房子被拆了，離鄉背井，大家四散到各地去住，就是等著這個案子能夠趕快都更完成，他們能夠搬回來，結果拖了8、9年到現在遙遙無期，有的人從他在世的時候簽了這樣子的約，一直到他過世都沒辦法進到這一個都更案裡面來安享晚年。它的總銷戶是497戶。","第一個我要說的是，一開始這個案子為什麼涉及詐貸呢？它是找安信建經公司，這家泰坤建設找安信建經辦理，那麼安信建經很可能某個程度跟他們有默契合作，竟然詐騙這些參與都更的屋主們、住戶們，跟他們說這個用信託的方式，但是安信建經既非銀行業，更非信託業，它怎麼可以來做信託業務呢？這是第一點要查的部分。第二點，融資給它的金額，這些融資專款要專用，要進到信託戶啊！結果成立了信託戶，竟然貸款給它的這些金額通通沒有進到信託戶，這是第二大錯誤。第三點，原來主辦這個聯貸的銀行是合作金庫，合作金庫的問題我另外講。","合作金庫先前就涉及很多大型大金額的詐貸案，比方說獵雷艦，大家很清楚嘛！其他幾個大金額的我就不講，我講上百億的獵雷艦就好，那個的危害，不但危害我們國家金融銀行、行庫這樣的損失，而且還妨礙到我們的國家安全。獵雷艦的製造，結果竟然遙遙無期，就被那個惡劣的慶富公司捲走了一百多億，現在人逃到中共去啊！逃到中國大陸去啊！你看這多可惡的事情。同樣在獵雷艦上面動手腳的這一群，我剛剛提到合作金庫，他們的高層，同樣現在也涉及這個泰坤案，天啊！當然後來被發現怪怪的，他做成這個案子以後，就跑到土地銀行去了，結果接手的合庫董事長很不錯，他發現這個有問題，趕快那個金額沒有全部貸放出去，有把它停止，停止之後，這一群竄逃到土銀去的人，他們又另起爐灶，又把這個案子接手過去做，這個真的是很可惡的事情啦！那可惡的事情還有一條就是說，竟然還被爆出，而且實質被查出來，竟然在這一些大型行庫之間穿梭擔任白手套的人，竟然是個自稱國師，在看土地、看風水的諸羅山人，天啊！曾幾何時看風水的，竟然涉入這種詐貸的穿梭，而且還涉入這些銀行高層人事轉來轉去，不可思議的事情耶！","我舉個例子喔！還有個可惡的事情，在他們的人事穿梭下，參與聯貸的有土銀，先前合庫轉到土銀聯貸的裡面一家聯貸銀行，也是我們公營行庫的臺灣中小企銀，它參與這個聯貸案，竟然還推薦高階的管理人給這家泰坤公司，天啊！去幫他們做什麼？泰坤這個集團還出了這一張，聘請這一位中小企銀的蔡先生到這邊，幫他們做什麼呢？做行政管理、業務、總務、法務，還有做什麼？會計、出納、財務管理，天啊！跟銀行貸款就是財務管理啊！竟然由聯貸行，我們的公營行庫把人介紹到它那邊，然後去擔任這麼高階的工作，這個位階可能比總經理還高啦！","我現在要問的就是說，第一個，我們金管會是不是應該……因為現在這個案子已經到司法單位，地檢署也已經起訴了，但那是司法調查，行政調查的部分應該由金管會接手，我們要下去辦。第二點，我希望辦得快速，做的行政調查跟行政處分要能夠快過司法調查才有道理。然後這一群人，這幾家銀行、這些高層，現在這家泰坤改名改一個字叫泰元，負責人朱婉卿就是先前泰坤負責人，這位楊岳修負責人、董事長是他公司的職員，而且這一位朱婉卿女士還是詐欺的前科犯耶！天啊！那我為什麼提到這個？它改名泰元公司就算了，另外一家公司重起爐灶幹什麼？他們又要去板橋談一個都更案，那個面積1,171坪，它地上蓋24層，地下要蓋5層，又有那麼多民眾、住戶來參與都更，如果再一次被他們得逞，你看有多少住戶、多少民眾會對都更失望、絕望，難怪我們現在都更處處碰壁，很難有真正要做都更的人能夠成功的做成都更，因為都被這些詐貸集團、詐貸的惡質建商毀壞掉了。","今天的時間有限，主席，我最後強調一點，有一個任務我希望彭主委你能夠處理，就是你是不是要督促這些銀行，除了查這些事以外，是不是請這些銀行要幫這些參與都更無辜受害的民眾？他們現在成立自救會，他們的房屋、土地都交出來了，但能夠住進去的時間遙遙無期，所以這個部分是不是銀行能夠幫助他們，怎麼樣達成交屋，然後分屋貸款，他們也同意做分屋貸款，這個部分是不是能夠幫幫這個自救會？我希望你在最短的期間內調查清楚以後，能夠給本席一個答復，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：有一個調查的報告，可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea3447b985ff77b0f7679336bc333af6bdb00b0900eab363510f9c42b40381f6ac9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:39:28 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南投 嘉義屏東都不會被扣押"},{"start":272.468,"end":291.997,"text":"這一種措施對我們金馬的民眾來講公平嗎這跟委員 千萬不要誤會因為我們這個規定沒有誤會啊 你們就是這樣做啊就是我們是強制執行就是用這樣做法其實剛才早上的時候也有委員提到就是說為了降低社會成本有沒有可能考量單一比例台北市的標準是不是一次性的標準嘛"},{"start":293.397,"end":313.838,"text":"這個可以討論我們要一致性的標準嘛就是凡是能夠降低社會成本然後這部分我們都可以來考慮你生活在台澎金馬哪個地區嘛你本來就應該採取一致性的標準啊這邊特別誠心我們絕對沒有要請所以你看我說中共還沒有答應你們就開始一國兩制喔這真的沒有真的沒有一國多制喔請委員不要誤會這個部分因為"},{"start":315.419,"end":332.484,"text":"我們這是強制執行法規定這是因為強制執行而來我們只是用它的標準所以我要求在你們這個現在在修法嘛提出版本以後可以可以就是把它修正成一次性的標準你們執行起來也方便嘛說實在誰戶籍在哪裡在哪裡很難也很你們去執行的時候也非常不方便啦"},{"start":333.584,"end":348.565,"text":"我們也剛剛也回應過就是說我們以降低社會成本的角度來看的話我們會來考慮這個問題對 一致性的標準其實你執行起來特別方便嘛對 絕對沒有要歧視對啊 這個債務人到底戶口在哪裡你也還要再去查你還要增加這個執行的負擔啊對不對"},{"start":350.027,"end":375.372,"text":"達成我們的目的 我剛才講三個原則很重要一個降低社會成本 一個確保保險這個部分 第一個這兩件事情都是歧視我們金門民眾這個請你特別注意然後我們來問一個全國性的議題就是綠紙這個問題我記得你們報告裡有講這個綠紙我們第一回就提出來而且是你們的優先法案嘛 對不對就是開放綠紙採基金架構發行 對不對這個在你的報告裡頭也有講嘛 對不對那這個法案進度應該是已經我們出委員會了嘛 對不對"},{"start":376.96,"end":396.966,"text":"就是我們委員會討論過了已經過了嘛對不對那從第一會期就已經那時候就已經現在已經第三會之前就送出了為什麼現在都還沒有這個三讀啊就是要尊重大院的整個審查程序那你們既然要推這件事情你就要去了解為什麼為什麼立法院沒有往前再推啊什麼原因你知道嗎"},{"start":398.908,"end":411.122,"text":"你們不關心嗎我們所有的法案送出我們方案來我們已經輸委員會了你知道嗎我們在這邊討論都輸委員會了我知道我們都有公司都出席那請問現在為什麼沒有完成三讀是誰的問題"},{"start":414.986,"end":430.658,"text":"沒有我想說可能各自我們在整個未來協商的過程當中不是誰的問題你沒有去了解嗎這是你的優先法案就是你們重視的在你報告裡頭還寫說要趕快去做這件事情啊你為什麼沒有了解是什麼原因我們當然會去了解但是就是有沒有去了解"},{"start":431.118,"end":443.354,"text":"不是 這是因為大院的職權我們當然是 你有沒有覺得 你剛剛說是哪個黨在黨哪個黨在阻擋這個法院 這個法律的三讀這是你們的優先法案嘛 沒錯吧現在你這一次的會議你又提出來 誰在阻擋是哪個黨團在阻擋 你公開說一下"},{"start":446.218,"end":468.879,"text":"沒有 其實我們行政黨委我們都尊重大院的審查程序對 但是哪個黨團在主黨 我們要去溝通啊是民進黨嗎 還是國民黨 還是民眾黨啊有三個黨在這裡啊 只有三個黨團啊 你知道嗎我覺得就麻煩這個委員能夠你不知道是不是那要不要我告訴你 你好好的去溝通一下是民進黨柯總召在主黨我跟你講沒有就是民進黨柯總召在主黨 你們同樣是執政黨啊"},{"start":470.226,"end":498.054,"text":"執政黨的黨團在阻擋你執政黨的這個要執政黨的行政計劃要推動這個優先法案這個法案是很正面的嘛他在阻擋啊那這種優先法案被阻擋的情況下我再講一下執政黨在阻擋執政黨要推的優先法案執政黨的立法院黨團我應該沒有說錯吧我想很多法案不是說在這個已經開過了財政委員都開過了我現在公開講也是負責的柯總召在阻擋"},{"start":499.054,"end":517.554,"text":"當然就是因為本來還沒有通過立法之前就是應該要多方的溝通那你有沒有去溝通我們尊重大院的整個審核程序我們會配合你們的審核程序那你要去溝通啊執政黨要去跟執政黨溝通啊那我給你建議一個好的溝通方式好不好最近那個行政院不是有在辦那個下鄉宣講這個活動嗎"},{"start":519.256,"end":535.331,"text":"對不對說這個什麼立法院這個什麼民眾黨啊這個什麼國民黨刪了多少預算要做黨的多少東西黨的這個東西黨的那個東西你是不是也去報名一下去參加啊下鄉一下去告訴這個全國的百姓執政黨的立委總召啊在立法院"},{"start":536.211,"end":558.561,"text":"阻擋執政黨所提出 行政部門所提出的優先法案而且這個法案是扶國立民的法案是配合這個法律修正開放不重產信託投資信託的方式採基金架構發行這是要讓我們的資金民間可以進入公共建設嘛很正面啊你是不是應該去報名一下不然這個全民都不知道啊你受的委屈沒有人知道啊"},{"start":560.022,"end":579.918,"text":"我們所有的法案我們都會持續的溝通啦這是我們的立場行政機關尊重立法機關的那個審查權利我們會以後有什麼院裡面有什麼程序我們盡量來配合對我知道那你推不動啊我就叫你請你下鄉去宣講吧用人民的力量更大的民主來推動這個法案接下來還有很多優先法案也"},{"start":580.899,"end":597.863,"text":"也麻煩這個委員能夠我們以上都很支持福國立運法案我們看國民黨也沒有在阻擋的今天談的是立法院的民進黨的黨團柯總召昨天拿棍子沒有殺人的將近幾乎要殺人的那個柯總召我想你回去溝通一下吧所以我們會該溝通該協調我們都會盡量去溝通好 謝謝"},{"start":605.534,"end":618.555,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的這個諮詢下面我們請王世堅委員諮詢那麼向委員報告現在可以發便當如果各位需要可以自行取用"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":886,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時39分）謝謝主席，我們請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委好。主委您認同電商平臺應該有企業社會責任，尤其是上市、櫃公司？"],["彭主任委員金隆：任何取之於社會、用之於社會的概念，我們都支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：請教主委，您知道上市、櫃公司裡有哪些電商平臺？您知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：momo嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：momo，好。我們看一下，金門離島的民眾，當然還有其他離島，一直都是次等公民，網購現在是很普遍的情形，但是金門人網購常常會被告知不送離島。臺灣寄郵局，隔天可以收到；超商現在有店到店，但電商平臺還是常常有不送離島的情形。我們來看一下相關的法律規定，行政院消保處曾經研商過，有一個共識，針對網路企業對偏遠地區消費者商品運送服務的這些事宜，應該要怎麼做呢？第一，網路、電視購物的商品，如可透過中華郵政、宅急便這一類業者送達者，業者不應拒絕運送。第二，運費負擔的資訊揭露。網購商品倘有運費負擔，應該要說清楚是多少錢，如果是全臺免運費者，不管宜蘭、花東或離島地區，都不應該加收運費。這是行政院消保處因為曾經有這樣的消費糾紛，而開會做成的共識。我舉您剛才說的momo為例，它變成標示要有離島運費，才可以配送到離島地區，您知道我的意思嗎？等於你要另外付費，或是如果沒有標示，你網購這個東西，在臺灣島他可能會送，但到金門他就不送，您知道這件事情嗎？上市、櫃公司一直強調要有企業社會責任，但這是一種歧視離島的行為，我們金門的民眾都覺得自己是次等公民，何況行政院消保處也曾經做出了要求，但這些上市、櫃公司不但沒有盡企業社會責任，也沒有遵循消保處的規定，金管會是不是要來糾正這些上市、櫃公司？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們糾正一些事情要於法有據……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是如果法規上沒有這樣的要求之前，我們大概只能用道德勸說的方式，提醒有人關注這個議題，但假設這個是大家都認為要善盡的社會責任，那我們可能還有其他軟性措施，就像……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，消保處已經有一些共識出來，這是您剛剛看到的行政院消保處的資料，我待會提供給您，請您清查上市、櫃公司，因為金管會能管理的大概是上市、上櫃公司，針對這些電商服務平臺，對於配貨寄送離島的貨物有歧視性作法者，請你們一個月內提出要求他們具體改善的方案。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是說有差異化啦！因為是不是歧視性，我要稍微了解……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你們去調查、了解一下，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，對，看有沒有差別待遇的部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：剛剛我聽到羅明才委員說這些上市、櫃公司還養球隊什麼的，這也是盡一點社會責任、ESG嘛……"],["彭主任委員金隆：根據選擇的方式，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：他們都還花錢養球隊，對於我們離島居民要買一點小東西都不願意配送，或者做出歧視性的待遇，離島居民不會覺得這很受歧視嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為有時候是成本上的考量，我想這部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：您查一下，針對整個上市、櫃公司有關電商平臺的部分，幫我們清查一下，提供具體資料還有改善措施給我，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好的。"],["陳委員玉珍：再講到歧視的問題，你們這次不是要做保單納強制執行的部分嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：對吧？前一陣子你們還開了公聽會，修正特定金額，你們的修正草案是當要保人欠債、欠稅或遭罰款時，若有效保險契約的解約金債權金額，依照最低生活費1.2倍計算的3個月金額者，不得作為扣押或強制執行標的。這部分在臺北市是7萬3，在我們福建省金門縣或連江縣是5萬1,627元。舉一個例子來講，一個35歲的男性買了保險，選擇繳6年期，保額10萬塊，要保人如果戶籍在金門或馬祖，持有保單第13年（即第12年底解約），就會觸及扣押紅線，但在其他地區，如臺南、南投、嘉義、屏東，都不會被扣押……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這點跟委員稍微說明一下……"],["陳委員玉珍：這種措施，對我們金馬的民眾來講，公平嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請委員千萬不要誤會，因為我們這個規定……"],["陳委員玉珍：當然是沒有誤會，你們就是這樣做啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，沒有，強制執行就是用這樣的作法，其實早上也有委員提到，為了降低社會成本，有沒有可能考量單一以臺北市為標準……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，一致性的標準嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也覺得這個可以討論，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：要一致性的標準嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：凡是能夠降低社會成本，這部分我們都可以考慮……"],["陳委員玉珍：不管你生活在臺、澎、金、馬哪個地區，本來就應該採取一致性的標準。"],["彭主任委員金隆：倒是這邊要特別澄清，絕對沒有要……"],["陳委員玉珍：你看！中共都還沒有打來，你們就開始一國兩制……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這真的沒有，真的沒有……"],["陳委員玉珍：一國多制喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：真的請委員不要誤會，這是強制執行法的規定，這是因為強制執行而來，我們只是用它的標準來……"],["陳委員玉珍：既然你們現在在修法，要提出版本，我要求你們把它修正成一致性標準，這樣執行起來也方便嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，對，我們將來……"],["陳委員玉珍：說實在的，誰戶籍在哪裡、在哪裡，很難清查，執行的時候也非常不方便。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，對，我們剛才也回應過，就是以降低社會成本的角度來看，我們會考慮這個問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，要一致性的標準，你們執行起來也特別方便。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，絕對沒有要歧視不同地區，絕對沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！這個債務人到底戶口在哪裡，你們還要再去查，增加執行的負擔，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，達成我們的目的，我剛才講有三個原則很重要，一個降低社會成本，一個確保保險的……"],["陳委員玉珍：這兩件事情都是歧視我們金門民眾，請你特別注意。","再來請問一個全國性的議題，就是REITs的問題。我記得你們報告裡有提到，REITs在第1會期就提出來了，而且是你們的優先法案，對不對？就是開放REITs採基金架構發行，對不對？這個在你的報告裡也有提到，現在法案的進度應該是已經出委員會了，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是我們在委員會討論過了。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經過了嘛，對不對？第1會期就已經通過了，現在是第3會期，之前已經送出去了，為什麼到現在都還沒有三讀？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要尊重大院的整個審查程序。"],["陳委員玉珍：既然你們要推這件事情，就要去了解為什麼立法院沒有往前再推？什麼原因你知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們不關心嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們所有的法案送出去，當然……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，沒有，我們已經送出委員會了，你知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在這邊討論……"],["陳委員玉珍：都出委員會了，我知道，我們都有共識，也送出去了，請問現在為什麼沒有完成三讀？"],["彭主任委員金隆：接下來有大院的程序要走。"],["陳委員玉珍：是誰的問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想可能我們各自在未來的協商過程當中……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是啦！誰的問題你沒有去了解嗎？這是你的優先法案，又是你們重視的，你的報告裡還寫說要趕快推動這件事情，那你為什麼沒有去了解是什麼原因？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然會去了解，但是就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有去了解？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是大院的職權，我們當然是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你有沒有去了解？你告訴我，是哪個黨在擋？哪個黨在阻擋這個法律的三讀？這是你們的優先法案，沒錯吧？你們這一個會期又提出來，誰在阻擋？是哪個黨團在阻擋，你公開說一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，其實我們行政單位都尊重大院的審查。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但是哪個黨在阻擋，我們要去溝通啊！是民進黨嗎？還是國民黨？還是民眾黨？有三個黨在這裡啊！只有三個黨團，你知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得就麻煩委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不知道是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：麻煩委員幫我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：那我告訴你，你好好去溝通一下，是民進黨柯總召在阻擋，我跟你講明，就是民進黨柯總召在阻擋，你們同樣是執政黨，執政黨的黨團在阻擋執政黨行政機關要推動的這個優先法案，這個法案是很正面的嘛！他在阻擋啊！這種優先法案被阻擋的情況下，我要講一下，執政黨的立法院黨團在阻擋執政黨要推的優先法案，我應該沒有說錯吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想很多法案不是說我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：財政委員會都開過會了，我現在公開講也是負責的，就是柯總召在阻擋。"],["彭主任委員金隆：本來在還沒有通過立法之前，就是應該多方溝通，我們也尊重大院的……"],["陳委員玉珍：那你有沒有去溝通？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們尊重大院的整個審核程序，我們會配合你們的審核程序。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！那你要去溝通，執政黨要去跟執政黨溝通啊！我跟你建議一個好的溝通方式，好不好？最近行政院不是在辦下鄉宣講活動嗎？對不對？說立法院民眾黨、國民黨刪了多少預算，又擋了多少東西，擋了這個東西、擋了那個東西，是不是你也去報名參加，下鄉告訴全國的百姓，執政黨的立委、總召，在立法院阻擋執政黨行政部門所提出的優先法案，而這個法案是福國利民的法案，是配合法律修正開放不動產信託投資，信託方式採基金架構發行，這是要讓我們民間的資金可以進入公共建設，很正面啊！你是不是應該去報名一下，不然全民都不知道啊！你受的委屈沒有人知道啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：所有的法案我們都會持續溝通，這是我們的立場，行政機關尊重立法機關的審查權力，院裡有什麼程序，我們都儘量配合。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我知道，但你推不動啊！我就請你下鄉去宣講，用人民的力量、更大的民主來推動這個法案。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們接下來還有很多優先法案，也麻煩委員能夠……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們一向都很支持福國利民的法案，我看國民黨也沒有在阻擋，今天擋的是立法院民進黨黨團柯總召啊！昨天還拿棍子打人、殺啊！沒有殺人啦，將近幾乎要殺人的那個柯總召，我想你回去溝通一下嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：該溝通、該協調，我們都會儘量去溝通、協調。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員的質詢。","下一位請王世堅委員質詢。","向委員會報告，現在可以發便當，如果各位需要，可以自行取用。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34a1b88fe0a3af3c91280a1269ac70bedc320df3df7f6ba36df91eb0f286b10d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:49:24 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待會您要多送我30秒我們請陳俊基部長好 請部長"},{"start":19.246,"end":35.962,"text":"委員好部長好我想剛剛我聽到前一個委員在質詢的時候一直在提到說什麼今年的農業部的哪一個數哪個數預算少多少請問一下部長請問一下農業部今年的總預算增加多少"},{"start":36.621,"end":49.927,"text":"今年的總預算在三減之後是增加了63.1億增加了63.1億那我想我們國民黨團又提到了如果有需要追加減的部分也歡迎農業部提出來那如果需要解凍的也請農業部盡快提出"},{"start":54.449,"end":77.245,"text":"我們應該有這樣子跟農業部對不過我要跟委員說明的就是我們所增加的預算有新的協助的項目這個非常重要所以剛剛有提到有新的項目需要追加減的歡迎跟我們立法院來提出我們已經有這樣的提言那剛剛有委員在那邊造謠然後挑撥然後喊大罷免我都很想請教主席今天這邊是經濟委員會嗎還是在這個造勢場合"},{"start":81.047,"end":105.046,"text":"大家要的應該是要質詢嘛不是在這邊喊這種什麼罷免誰罷免誰照顧農漁民不是嘴巴說說就好啊我是農漁民的眷屬啊我想我一直以來都在照顧農漁民所以我想部長這個部分希望我們就是就事論事啦那不要在這種場合一直在喊什麼大罷免我覺得這個真的非常非常讓人家覺得是不是專業的立委真的很非常非常的覺得"},{"start":107.062,"end":119.113,"text":"在這樣子的一個場合講出這樣的話一直號稱自己是專業立委真的很讓人家覺得不可思議那部長請教一下因為經濟部郭智慧部長他有發言預告說他任內會漲兩次電價也就是已經預告了"},{"start":124.498,"end":137.151,"text":"這個今年可能電價會再漲那禮拜五就要召開這個電價審議委員會所以說如果真的禮拜五召開之後依郭部長的說法應該4月份就會漲那農業用電也會跟著調漲那當然我想農業用電的成本增加之後呢也會讓我們多農漁民的這個他整個生產成本增加也會"},{"start":146.921,"end":169.142,"text":"帶動這個農漁產品的價格跟民生物價那請問部長剛剛您有提到針對這個部分你們今年其實已經有編了24.26億元的補貼店價但是那是指目前還沒調漲的狀況也就是說如果4月份真的調漲的話請問部長是不是也可以為農漁民向中央請命然後能夠增加我們的這個"},{"start":170.783,"end":196.837,"text":"農業的電費要避免引發通膨的危機我想謝謝委員我想我跟委員都一樣的就是我們一定會想盡辦法去減輕與農民的負擔特別是農業用電的部分然後去年上一波漲價我們編列的24.6億但是它是預計在整年度用的那今年度如果預算有電費有做調整的時候如果需要額外的經費我們一定會去爭取"},{"start":197.617,"end":219.957,"text":"但是在爭取的過程中因為24.261是12個月我們可以有一些部分可以先去調整但是最後的預算一定不夠我們一定會努力爭取那請你部長就是說如果真的經費有不足的話你也可以就是隨同追加減預算一起送來立法院審議那國民黨團一定全力支持謝謝那另外就是針對今年的這個農產品貿易統計網"},{"start":223.32,"end":230.463,"text":"就台灣對於中國大陸的農產品出口總值達7億4743億美元大概佔總體這個出口比例達15.18%然後尤其是呢農產品對大陸出口的年增率高達48.95那最重要的也就是說是所有出口市場中成長最快的那請問部長賴總統之前宣布賴17條並將大陸視為敵對境外勢力會不會影響114年農產品的出口"},{"start":253.311,"end":278.348,"text":"那如果會的話農業部有沒有什麼應對的策略我想從110年開始中國就是片面禁止一些農產品的輸出以後我們開始就持續的開拓高端的其他的市場這個目標我們會持續在走那去年度比較高最主要是它又恢復了一些部分的品項像鳳梨釋迦的部分那以農業部的立場"},{"start":279.168,"end":289.101,"text":"貿易的部分我想我們不會放棄任何一個可能有貿易的一個機會但是我們一定會持續的更積極的開拓其他的高端市場"},{"start":290.185,"end":308.353,"text":"就請部長在這邊就是雖然我們賴總統宣布了賴17條但是還是希望部長能夠好好的去注意到我們農民的權益不能讓他們的這個受損好嗎我們會努力的就是將我們的農產品供應給國內也供應到國外去好謝謝部長那麻煩您謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時49分）謝謝召委，待會兒你也要多送我30秒喔！","我們請陳駿季部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。剛剛我聽到前一個委員在質詢的時候，一直提到什麼今年農業部的哪個司、哪個署預算少多少，請問一下部長，農業部今年的總預算增加多少？"],["陳部長駿季：今年的總預算在刪減後增加了63.1億。"],["許委員宇甄：是，增加了63.1億，我想我們國民黨團也有提到了，如果有需要追加減的部分，也歡迎農業部提出來，如果需要解凍的，也請農業部儘快提出。我們應該有這樣子跟農業部說明過嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，不過我要跟委員說明的是，我們所增加的預算，有新協助的項目，這個非常重要。"],["許委員宇甄：是的，所以剛剛有提到有新的項目需要追加減的，歡迎跟我們立法院提出，我們已經有這樣提。剛剛有委員在那邊造謠、挑撥，然後喊大罷免，我都很想請教主席，今天這邊是經濟委員會嗎？還是在造勢場合？大家要的應該是要質詢，不是在這邊喊這種什麼罷免誰、罷免誰，照顧農漁民不是嘴巴說說就好。我是農漁民的眷屬，我一直以來都在照顧農漁民。所以部長，我想這個部分希望我們就事論事，不要在這種場合一直在喊什麼大罷免，我覺得這真的非常非常讓人家覺得是不是專業的立委，在這樣子的場合講出這樣的話，一直號稱自己是專業立委，真的很讓人家覺得不可思議。","部長，請教一下，經濟部郭智輝部長有發言預告他任內會漲兩次電價，也就是已經預告今年可能電價會再漲，禮拜五就要召開電價審議委員會。如果真的禮拜五召開之後，依郭部長的說法，應該4月份就會漲，那麼農漁業用電也會跟著調漲，農漁業用電的成本增加之後，也會讓我們很多農漁民整個生產成本增加，也會帶動農漁產品的價格跟民生物價。請問部長，剛剛您也有提到針對這個部分，你們今年其實已經有編了24.26億元的補貼電價，但是那是指目前還沒調漲的狀況，如果4月份真的調漲，請問部長是不是也可以為農漁民向中央請命，增加我們農漁業的電費，避免引發通膨的危機？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，我想我跟委員都一樣的，我們一定會想盡辦法去減輕農漁民的負擔，特別是農業用電的部分。去年上一波漲價，我們編列24.26億，但是它是預計在整年度用的，今年度如果電費有調整，如果需要額外的經費，我們一定會去爭取。但是在爭取的過程中，因為24.26億是12個月，我們有一些部分可以先去調整，但是最後的預算一定不夠，我們一定會努力爭取。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，如果真的經費有不足的話，你也可以隨同追加減預算一起送來立法院審議，國民黨黨團一定全力支持。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：另外就是針對今年的農產品貿易統計網，臺灣對中國大陸的農產品出口總值達7億4,743萬美元，大概占總體出口比例達15.18%，尤其是農產品對大陸出口的年增率高達48.95%，最重要的，這是所有出口市場中成長最快的。請問部長，賴總統之前宣布賴十七條，並將大陸視為敵對境外勢力，會不會影響114年農產品的出口？如果會的話，農業部有沒有什麼應對的策略？"],["陳部長駿季：從110年開始，中國片面禁止一些農產品輸出以後，我們就開始持續開拓高端的其他市場，這個目標我們會持續進行。去年度會比較高，最主要是他又恢復了部分的品項，像鳳梨釋迦的部分。以農業部的立場，貿易的部分，我們不會放棄任何一個可能貿易的機會，但是我們一定會持續更積極的開拓其他的高端市場。"],["許委員宇甄：部長在這邊，雖然我們賴總統宣布了賴十七條，但是還是希望部長能夠好好注意我們農漁民的權益，不能讓他們受損好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力將我們優質的農產品供應給國內，也供應到國外。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝部長，麻煩您，謝謝。"],["主席：好，一樣有送30秒。"],["許委員宇甄：30秒都是部長講的，不是我講的。"],["主席：好，謝謝許宇甄委員。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。我們中午不休息就開會到會議結束。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我請農業部陳部長另外輔導師陳市長 訓務師李市長漁業署王署長還有農水署李署長來請部長和署長幾個問題請教這個採訪法通過"},{"start":35.219,"end":62.999,"text":"然後這個裝送總運算啊在經過立法院這個非理性的這個煽動之後當然會影響到你們業務的推動啊你們這本報告裡面啊業務報告裡面財化法影響的然後這個這個裝送總運算不當煽動所影響的影響哪些業務推動最為劇烈最為嚴重"},{"start":64.161,"end":91.8,"text":"我先問一下啦漁業署黃市長我們現在財化法影響到大概最大一塊就是我們補助地方政府這些漁業建設啦或是養殖生產區的一個建設的部分因為到時候這裡如果切下去可能就我們的部分漁業署的部分可能會達到將近那我們怎麼去照顧農漁民呢"},{"start":94.046,"end":119.507,"text":"農業部所有預算都是照顧農民農民都集中在這個中南部我不曉得這個在野黨中南部的立委是怎麼看到這種事情還有良心嗎口口聲聲在照顧農民跟漁民有大幅度非理性的煽動而且委員會我主持的農委會的農業部預算我們是跨黨派支持"},{"start":121.884,"end":141.555,"text":"幾乎在院會的時候協商被兩三個惡人啊不分青紅皂白用情緒性非理性的來糟蹋農民來糟蹋漁民非常惡劣你說影響幾億跟委員報告大概將近會十億十億十億要用來照顧漁民的想到這個我這個血壓就升高"},{"start":149.376,"end":165.889,"text":"來 農水署的部分 請問一下那個李署長農水署對地方上的這個農村建設非常重要不盪山洞還有這個採訪法修正之後 中央的補助的權限降低了好 影響多少金額"},{"start":168.527,"end":192.12,"text":"呃 報告委員我是農村水保署不是農村水保署這一樣 農村保守不是三個字啦三個字才是農村水保署 五個字是我們農村水保署 來是 謝謝委員關心因為這次的三項講重點 講重點因為我要精準諮詢 是是我們的治山防災目前是大概是通過43億但是問題是影響幾億嘛影響喔"},{"start":197.811,"end":213.314,"text":"總共解鎖2.7億2.7億要做農村水土保食對不對我要說明一下2.7億是刪除以我們現在目前如果說這種錢他刪了下去這種事要保護農民生產的安全這種錢刪了下去"},{"start":213.795,"end":234.98,"text":"如果現在照這個財務法移出去的部分各部位平均分攤的時候各部位如果平均分攤的話 那個就是240億 總共大概240億你說整個農業部預算對 會大概240億到250億被移出去啦如果說照部位就是原本用在農營民身上 用在農業身上就少240億對不對 對這種國會也要不要罷掉"},{"start":242.554,"end":255.108,"text":"大罷免大成功才能對得起這個農民還有剛剛是農村發展與水土保守署沒有錯另外我問一下那個徐牧師這個市長這個"},{"start":264.062,"end":290.366,"text":"在紫關區的這個批發市場還有一個設備的這個補助紫關區這個非常重要是一個重要的一個這個家庭的批發市場這部分我希望能夠支持這經費也不多他們自籌五成希望中午那會不會受到這次影響會會你看看看"},{"start":291.883,"end":319.661,"text":"政府要做事 要照顧農民 要扶國立民這個可惡的在野黨三農民的預算 三餘民的預算這些是擁有農民資產就是說受到影響那能不能補助我跟委員報告齁 在可能的情況之下我們一定會盡量去維持我們對地方 特別是農業的協助我唯一能夠解決這個問題就是大罷免 大成果"},{"start":322.5,"end":336.01,"text":"國會才能恢復常態 恢復理性 恢復這個國會該有的素質跟水準才能繼續福國利民好 另外這個湖內區農會 湖內區農會是農撫師陳市長 那個我們有開過門嘛這部分有沒有受到影響"},{"start":343.564,"end":370.265,"text":"因為這個福島農會的那個推廣教育設施的改善的話這一部分是在編在基金裡面所以沒有影響目前是沒有受影響這裡就比較安心不過我要跟委員說明我們基金每年由公務預算撥補大概371億370億左右由公務預算撥補所以它是會間接的還是會有影響不過我想我們還是會在可能的範圍之內來盡量來協助"},{"start":373.688,"end":393.412,"text":"這個部長你不要再講你越講我心都碎了這個沒有辦法去體訓農民是一個沒有辦法去照顧農民這些是惡質政客這是沒有良心的政客沒有良心的政黨老天有眼啊會懲罰他們來台電預算被砍"},{"start":400.653,"end":425.369,"text":"電費可能會調漲那農漁用的電調漲預算能不能追加我有一個報告就是我們對於農漁民本身用電的優惠跟補貼的政策不會變那去年上漲了以後我們今年度變了24.6億26億但是今年電價如果有調整的時候我想我們還是維持我們的政策但是我們會"},{"start":426.349,"end":435.592,"text":"更積極的向行政院去做爭取相關的一個預算會不會影響目前的對農業用電的補助因為這個用電本身24.26億是編列上一波漲價的一個補助這一次在漲價的話我們專家的經費就沒有了大概20幾億"},{"start":449.095,"end":475.996,"text":"還要增加20幾億如果調整的幅度跟上次是一樣的話就是24.26億那我們現在還不知道電費是怎樣的調整不過不管怎麼樣我想我們都還會努力要一定要用額外的經費啦因為在我們現在的預算裡面是沒辦法挪用的所以三萬七千戶的農業用戶都會受到影響我希望能夠舉例去證據因為我時間到了遵守時間是一個"},{"start":477.847,"end":484.334,"text":"謝謝邱委員把時間掌握得非常的精準那30秒是我送給你的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":544,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時41分）謝謝主席，我請農業部陳部長，另外是輔導司陳司長、畜牧司李司長、漁業署王署長，還有農水署李署長。"],["主席：請部長、司長和署長。"],["邱委員志偉：本席有幾個問題請教，財劃法修正通過，加上中央政府總預算經過立法院非理性的刪、凍之後，當然會影響到你們的業務推動。在你們今天這本業務報告裡面，財劃法和中央政府總預算不當刪、凍對哪些業務推動的影響最為嚴重？我先問一下漁業署王署長。"],["王署長茂城：委員好。現在財劃法影響到的最大一塊大概就是我們補助地方政府的漁業建設或是養殖生產區建設的部分，因為到時候……"],["邱委員志偉：影響到的經費有多少錢？"],["王署長茂城：這裡如果切下去，我們漁業署的部分可能會達到將近……"],["邱委員志偉：那我們怎麼去照顧農、漁民呢？農業部所有預算都是照顧農、漁民，農、漁民都集中在中南部，我不曉得在野黨中南部的立委是怎麼看待這個事情，他們還有良心嗎？口口聲聲說要照顧農民跟漁民，卻大幅度、非理性地刪、凍預算！在委員會我主持的會議當中，農業部預算我們是跨黨派地支持，結果在院會的時候，被兩、三個惡人不分青紅皂白用情緒性、非理性的方式來糟蹋農民、糟蹋漁民，非常惡劣！你說影響幾億？"],["王署長茂城：跟委員報告，大概會將近10億。"],["邱委員志偉：10億？"],["王署長茂城：嗯！"],["邱委員志偉：10億是要用來照顧漁民的耶！","想到這個，我的血壓就升高。","接下來是農水署的部分，請問李署長，農水署對地方上的農村建設非常重要，總預算不當刪、凍還有財劃法修正之後，中央補助的權限降低了，影響多少金額？"],["李署長鎮洋：報告委員，我是農村水保署，不是農水署。"],["邱委員志偉：一樣！簡稱啦！你們是農村發展及……"],["李署長鎮洋：我們是5個字，不是3個字，3個字的才是農水署，5個字的是我們。"],["邱委員志偉：好，農村水保署，請說明。"],["李署長鎮洋：謝謝委員關心，因為這次的……"],["邱委員志偉：講重點！講重點！因為我要精準質詢。"],["李署長鎮洋：是。我們治山防災目前大概是通過43億，但問題是……"],["邱委員志偉：影響幾億嘛！"],["李署長鎮洋：影響哦？總共減少2.72億。"],["邱委員志偉：2.72億你要做農村水土保持，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我要說明一下，那個2.72億是刪除喔！以我們目前如果說……"],["邱委員志偉：這種錢他刪得下去！這種是要保護農民生產的安全，這種錢刪得下去！"],["陳部長駿季：如果現在照這個……"],["邱委員志偉：真的是無血無淚！"],["陳部長駿季：如果照現在這個財劃法移出去的話，各部會平均分攤的時候……"],["邱委員志偉：這種就要把他罷掉，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：那個就是240億、總共大概240億。"],["邱委員志偉：你說整個農業部的預算？"],["陳部長駿季：對，大概會有240億到250億被移出去。如果照部會……"],["邱委員志偉：就是原本要用在農、漁民身上，結果就少了240億，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：這種國會議員要不要罷掉？罷！大罷免、大成宮，才能對得起農民！","剛剛是農村發展及水土保持署，沒有錯吧？"],["李署長鎮洋：對！"],["邱委員志偉：接下來我要問一下畜牧司。司長，在梓官區批發市場有一個設備的補助，梓官區非常重要，那是一個重要的家禽批發市場，這個部分我希望能夠支持，經費也不多，他們自籌五成，會不會受到這次的影響？"],["李司長宜謙：會，一定會。"],["邱委員志偉：你看！你看看！政府要做事、要照顧農民、要福國利民，這個可惡的在野黨竟然刪農民的預算、刪漁民的預算！這些是用在農民身上的，結果你說會受到影響，那能不能補助？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，在可能的情況之下，我們一定會儘量去維持我們對地方，特別是農業的補助。"],["邱委員志偉：唯一能夠解決這個問題的方法就是大罷免、大成宮啦！這樣國會才能恢復常態、恢復理性、恢復國會該有素質跟水準，才能繼續福國利民啦！","好，另外是湖內區農會的事情，請問農輔司陳司長，我們開過會嘛！"],["陳司長俊言：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這部分有沒有受到影響？"],["陳司長俊言：輔導農會教育設施改善的部分是編在基金裡面……"],["邱委員志偉：對啦，所以沒有影響嘛！"],["陳司長俊言：目前是沒有受影響。"],["邱委員志偉：這就比較讓人安心。"],["陳部長駿季：不過我要跟委員說明，我們基金每年由公務預算撥補大概370億左右……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有受到影響？"],["陳部長駿季：由公務預算撥補啦！所以它還是會間接受到影響，不過我想我們還是會在可能的範圍之內儘量來協助。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你不要再講了，你越講，我心都碎了！沒有辦法體恤農民、照顧農民的是惡質政客，是沒有良心的政客、沒有良心的政黨！老天有眼，「天公伯」會懲罰他們！","另外，補貼台電的預算被砍，電費可能會調漲，農、漁用電調漲的預算能不能追加？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們對農、漁民本身用電的優惠跟補貼政策不會變，去年電價上漲以後，我們今年度編了24.26億，今年電價如果調整的話，我想我們還是會維持我們的政策，但是我們會更積極地向行政院爭取相關的預算。"],["邱委員志偉：會不會影響目前對農、漁用電的補助？"],["陳部長駿季：因為這個用電本身24.26億的編列是上一波漲價的補助……"],["邱委員志偉：對，沒有錯。"],["陳部長駿季：這一次再漲價的話，我們的經費就沒有了。"],["邱委員志偉：要增加多少？"],["陳部長駿季：大概二十幾億啦！"],["邱委員志偉：還要增加二十幾億？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。如果調整幅度跟上次一樣的話，就是24.26億啦！"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在還不知道電費要做怎樣的調整，不過不管怎麼樣，我們都會努力去爭取。一定要用額外的經費啦，因為在我們現在的預算裡面是沒有辦法挪用的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以3萬7,000戶的農業用戶都會受到影響？我希望你們積極去爭取。"],["陳部長駿季：農、漁的部分都需要。"],["邱委員志偉：我的時間到了，遵守時間是一個國會議員該有的素質。謝謝主席讓我多講了30秒。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員把時間掌握得非常精準。那30秒是我送給你的。","下一位請許宇甄許委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長好請陳部長"},{"start":15.501,"end":27.725,"text":"市長我想這個從民進黨政府執政以來台海的關係越來越緊張尤其賴清德總統在3月13號又公布了這個所謂賴17條將中國定位為境外敵對勢力那麼昨天美國的戰略暨國際研究中心簡稱CSIS他稱"},{"start":37.509,"end":60.72,"text":"中共如果願意的話今天就能夠對台封鎖、隔離並且揭露共軍圍台的四個步驟其中之一就是會切斷貿易阻擋商船跟貨船的靠近而我們知道其實台灣96%的能源以及70%的糧食都是靠進口所以在此本席想要請教請問部長"},{"start":62.981,"end":85.531,"text":"你們在去年的時候其實在國防外交委員會就曾經有做過一個報告就是如果說萬一這個解放軍封鎖台灣那你們會怎麼樣的來維持台灣的糧食安全那報告裡面有提出就現在的當時的國內的公糧糙米的庫存可以供應七個月以上請問現在呢現在此時此刻我們的"},{"start":90.174,"end":108.096,"text":"現在大概也是到你的儲存量現在目前是5.5個月然後等採收以後又會上升到大概8個月到9個月左右所以我們一般為時是8個月到12個月之間是 我想在這裡要提醒部長一件事情如果按照美國戰略及國際研究中心的說法"},{"start":110.19,"end":130,"text":"隨時隨地都有可能這個台灣立刻就被封鎖所以我們的糧食安全就是我們的儲備糧食應該要達到什麼樣的標準5.5個月夠嗎我想整個的糧食儲備我們沒有辦法等到8月份的時候等到稻米採收啊"},{"start":130.748,"end":150.062,"text":"沒有 我想我們剛才講的公糧是大概5.5個月的部分但是那純粹只是公糧那還有民糧的部分所以兩個加起來可以維持到一年那第二個部分我要跟委員報告的就是我們在針對糧食安全的儲備的時候會依照它的風險的情境而有不同的設計那像"},{"start":152.083,"end":164.088,"text":"這些風險的情境不只是戰爭更重要就是我們當我們遇到一些砸害的時候我們必須要去處理而且不只是稻米所以好所以按照就是部長您的說法就說其實台灣跟現在大陸關係沒有那麼緊張這個發生戰爭的風險不高"},{"start":169.671,"end":190.952,"text":"所以我們的糧食安全的準備會根據不同的風險去做相關的因應措施然後這些風險除了戰爭以外可能的引起以外還有一些天然災害還有一些重大災害所造成的影響"},{"start":191.653,"end":194.554,"text":"那這個部分我想我們都會有一些準備當然我們現在要講那個極端的狀況就是除了就是發生天然災害之外這是不可測的那麼另外就是萬一有緊急發生這個戰爭的狀況的時候到底農糧署的準備如何"},{"start":207.239,"end":222.709,"text":"依照現在經濟部所定班的民生必需品短缺時期的配給配售辦法裡面其實各個縣市政府都應該要開設配售站來實施這個10米的配售作業請問一下部長現在供應站配售站"},{"start":223.65,"end":246.304,"text":"有沒有你們已經有規劃了相關的設置地點嗎我想我們從我們的公糧倉庫到到所有的配售站到配售的發放站其實我們這個部分其實有一個非常完整的規劃而且我們也做相關的演練去做這樣的一個情況所以你們這些配售站有公告相關地點有讓民眾現在就知道你們的規劃嗎我們現在是應該還沒有"},{"start":250.026,"end":259.839,"text":"沒有 我們公糧的處所跟它的配售站我們現在都有充分的掌握但是相對的就是說地方政府是主要的配售站各個地方"},{"start":260.902,"end":282.837,"text":"各個地方的政府那各個地方政府會根據他離距離公糧的距離他會去做設置這是屬於各個地方政府要做的事情嗎難道我們依照這個辦法裡面看起來應該是不是所有的東西都是中央跟地方一起合作的那相對的配售的部分絕對不是中央直接去配售然後去發送所以我們會跟地方政府合作"},{"start":283.637,"end":299.571,"text":"就是離公糧距離一個公糧倉庫可以配售多少個縣市我們都有相關的跟地方政府在合作所以我現在想了解就是說是你們到底有哪幾個縣市沒有設置公糧倉庫以及目前規劃的這個配售站"},{"start":300.592,"end":315.869,"text":"的情況如何是不是都已經安排好了跟各個地方政府協調的狀況如何因為我覺得這很重要因為如果說萬一台灣隨時隨地都有可能發生戰爭的時候這些資訊都必須要公開然後讓大家民眾很快的知道"},{"start":316.349,"end":335.126,"text":"後面公務員再請農糧署把資料給你後面公務員再趕時間農業部這部分並沒有做好準備沒有 我們都非常清楚我剛才說的我們現在有143個配售站而且這個配售站不是每一個縣市都需要我們會根據公糧的位置它已經"},{"start":336.027,"end":350.393,"text":"打破了縣市的邊界公糧到配售站 配售站到發售然後再供給的部分這個整個鏈結其實我們都有一個完整的規劃好 那就請部長麻煩請你把整個規劃資料再給公眾因為我覺得這個疫情非常重要這也是呼籲這個難題的時機好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時35分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想從民進黨政府執政以來，臺海關係越來越緊張，尤其賴清德總統在3月13號又公布了所謂的賴十七條，將中國定位為境外敵對勢力。昨天美國戰略暨國際研究中心（簡稱CSIS）稱中共如果願意的話，今天就能夠對臺封鎖隔離，並且揭露共軍圍臺的四個步驟，其中之一就是會切斷貿易，阻擋商船跟貨船的靠近，而我們知道其實臺灣96%的能源以及70%的糧食都是靠進口。所以在此本席想要請教，部長，你們在去年的時候在國防及外交委員會就曾經做過一個報告，就是萬一解放軍封鎖臺灣，你們會怎麼樣維持臺灣的糧食安全。報告裡面有提出，當時的國內公糧糙米庫存可以供應7個月以上，請問現在呢？現在此時此刻，我們的公糧稻米儲存量……"],["陳部長駿季：目前是5.5個月，等採收以後又會上升到大概8個月到9個月左右，所以我們一般維持8個月到12個月之間。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我想在這裡要提醒部長一件事情，如果按照美國戰略暨國際研究中心的說法，臺灣隨時隨地都有可能立刻被封鎖，所以我們的糧食安全，就是我們的儲備糧食應該要達到什麼樣的標準？5.5個月夠嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個糧食儲備……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們沒有辦法等到8月份的時候稻米採收。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們剛才講的公糧大概是5.5個月，但那純粹只是公糧，還有民糧的部分，兩個加起來可以維持到一年。第二個部分我要跟委員報告的就是，我們在針對糧食安全儲備的時候，會依照它的風險情境而有不同的設計，像這些風險情境不只是戰爭，更重要就是當我們遇到一些災害的時候，我們必須要去處理，而且不只是稻米。"],["翁委員曉玲：就是有緊急危難的時候。所以按照部長的說法，其實臺灣跟現在大陸關係沒有那麼緊張，發生戰爭的風險不高，是吧？"],["陳部長駿季：不是……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我們的農糧儲備……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我沒有這樣說，委員不要誤會，我是說我們的糧食安全準備會根據不同的風險去做相關的因應措施，這些風險除了戰爭可能引起的影響以外，還有一些天然災害，還有一些重大災害所造成的影響，這個部分我們都會有一些準備。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，謝謝部長，這些我知道。當然我們現在要講那個極端的狀況，就是除了發生天然災害之外，這是不可測的，另外就是萬一緊急發生戰爭狀況的時候，到底農糧署的準備如何？依照現在經濟部所訂頒的民生必需品短缺時期配給配售辦法，各個縣市政府都應該要開設配售站實施食米的配售作業。請問一下部長，現在供應站、配售站，你們已經有規劃相關的設置地點嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的公糧倉庫到所有的配售站，到配售的發放站，這個部分我們其實有非常完整的規劃，而且我們也做相關的演練去做這樣一個情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們這些配售站有公告相關地點，有讓民眾現在就知道你們的規劃嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們公糧的處所跟配售站，現在都有充分的掌握，但是相對的，地方政府是主要的配售站，各個地方政府會根據它距離公糧的距離去設置。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是屬於各地方政府要做的事情嗎？依照這個辦法看起來，應該是農糧署或者是……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，所有的東西都是中央跟地方一起合作的，相對的，配售的部分絕對不是中央直接去配售，然後去發送，所以我們會跟地方政府合作，一個公糧倉庫可以配售多少個縣市，我們都有跟地方政府合作。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我現在想瞭解的就是：你們到底有哪幾個縣市沒有設置公糧倉庫，以及目前規劃的配售站的情況如何？是不是都已經安排好了？跟各個地方政府協調的狀況如何？因為我覺得這很重要，萬一臺灣隨時隨地都有可能發生戰爭的話，這些資訊都必須公開，讓民眾能夠很快地知道。看起來我覺得……"],["主席：翁委員，再請農糧署把資料給你，好不好？後面的委員在趕時間。"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得農糧署或者是農業部這部分並沒有做好準備。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們都非常清楚。我剛才說的，我們現在有143個配售站，而且這個配售站不是每個縣市都需要，我們會根據公糧的位置，它已經打破了縣市的邊界，包括公糧到配售站、配售站到發售，在供給部分的整個鏈結其實我們都有完整的規劃。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就麻煩部長把這個規劃的資料提供給本席。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會後看看怎麼樣，再把這個資料提供給您。"],["主席：好，再把資料給翁委員。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為我覺得這個議題非常重要。"],["陳部長駿季：是，糧食的安全準備非常重要。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是在呼應賴清德提出的十七條。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝翁曉玲翁委員，下一位請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席那有請司法院跟法務部麻煩司法院法務部委員您好好 兩位好喔 午安委員好好 我想要就我等一下可能會提的是個案但是我希望從通案的部分我們來討論好不好我們不要進入個案但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例喔第一個例子指的是這個新聞是2025年3月的台灣退役軍官再報泄密案"},{"start":33.192,"end":56.779,"text":"那當時其實在相關的案件調查當中就有很多人提醒整個國安系統說過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響會受到滲透會受到吸收但是他們發現在越來越多的案例當中其實觸角都已經延伸到第一階的軍官那甚至在這個案例當中還有相關的這個研究員指出說不僅到"},{"start":59.16,"end":78.888,"text":"低階的軍官甚至呢連金流的方法都變得多元了所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展那另外國人對這件事情的警覺性也很低所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂甚至呢曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣新站處的處長已經退休了他都說從2024年看2024年的統計共諜案的他說數量驚人"},{"start":87.651,"end":114.28,"text":"那我們知道目前他在刑法上他有相關的論述空間可是他認為台灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透然後事件層出不窮的原因有一個原因是來自於台灣司法的體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕缺乏嚴刑峻罰以產生嚇阻效果那我當然只是從2025年報導出來這個案例我們再看下一張"},{"start":115.731,"end":119.514,"text":"另外一個案例是總統府的憲兵翻拍相關的密件賣給中國一樣被滲透一樣有相關的討論那我剛剛特別拜託說我們不要從個案切入因為今天在這個會場你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論跟討論可是我們就相關司法系統來看我們看到相關的問題是說過往很多人可能會認為一個可能有量刑太輕的問題"},{"start":143.154,"end":157.85,"text":"第二個相關的證據扣合的不是那麼緊密所以呢我們在做後續的判決的時候可能每一個法官的想像或者是檢察官的想像的論述不大一樣那我們怎麼看後續未來修法的可能性好 請回答 謝謝"},{"start":162.706,"end":192.006,"text":"先跟委員報告就是說那個國家安全法他在那個108年的時候他有個修法那確實就是在修法之前的時候呢他的法定刑並不重可是在修法之後呢他有強化了規範的密度那相對的這些罪行也有提高了他那個法定的刑度那像那個大家所關注的這一個為大陸地區發展組織罪呢他以前修法之前的時候法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":193.046,"end":213.103,"text":"就是最高判五年 是可是修法之後呢他提升到了那個七年以上的那個有期徒刑那所以就是說在那個修法之後就是我們目前就是我們司法院所有的這些那個判決的那個當中呢修法之後這些刑度相對都已經提高很多了"},{"start":213.883,"end":221.459,"text":"可是你覺得這個相對提高的這個狀態可以符合我們目前台灣所遭遇到這個所謂共諜數量驚人的這個現況嗎就您個人法務上的見解"},{"start":226.007,"end":250.824,"text":"我覺得這個部分確實就是國安他有他的那個專業性那所以這個部分也是我們司法院就是我們也一直在那個因應的也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢說那我們司法院做了哪一些那個措施就是那我們現在就是一直不斷的加強就是說那個法官在那個國安軍事專庭的這個法官他們要充實他們的那個專業性"},{"start":252.265,"end":275.983,"text":"他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的就好像我們在看很多兒少議題的時候我們發現身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像所以如同剛剛您說的相關的人在做出相關的裁處的時候是不是有相關的敏感度我認為這件事情我們應該要更積極的去面對跟做後續的"},{"start":277.644,"end":299.735,"text":"改進 對嗎好那這個部分呢我們就先討論到這邊因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作我們也很希望看到當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人它其實危害到台灣的國安系統危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候我都認為我們身為立法委員或者是你們行政機關應該要積極的面對好那我們來看下一個問題昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚 對嗎好"},{"start":306.058,"end":327.559,"text":"我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀現在不管是民粹或者是不同的政黨的委員或者是不同的等級的民意代表甚至一般的網紅很多人都會對言論自由提出看法我個人認為我們例如說我有行動自由可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席你的家然後說我要住進你家這樣"},{"start":328.16,"end":345.936,"text":"或者是我有行動自由但是我看誰不高興我就打他一巴掌那言論自由這件事情在台灣我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由我可不可以問一下在相關的法規範下你們怎麼看言論自由你們怎麼看這次這個案件法務部 謝謝"},{"start":352.515,"end":380.313,"text":"委員好我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權但是也不是無限上綱那在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障呢我們還是會用法律來加以限制那現在目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或善惑他能內亂、暴動內患或者是善惑犯罪其實都有處罰的規定那在最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗這些也都會有相關的刑責"},{"start":381.073,"end":396.121,"text":"所以這種考量之下是會用法律加以規範的好 謝謝你的回答謝謝你特別提到刑法因為這一次我們確實台灣內政部只對芽芽做出行政處分就是請她因為她是一親她並不是台灣的公民也不是台灣的國民所以我們只有請她離境"},{"start":397.102,"end":418.977,"text":"我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分但是我非常謝謝法務部剛提到刑法的部分我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒對於相關言論自由定義的提醒這個釐清我認為非常的重要謝謝您的回答我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題就是關於1085條這件事情我知道我們在去年前年"},{"start":420.218,"end":440.93,"text":"應該有公告要修正 對嗎但是後來沒有相關的進度我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境1085條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情我們是不是現在要確定一下進度主席時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎"},{"start":442.441,"end":447.149,"text":"言先暫停 暫停好 讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":453.513,"end":457.216,"text":"所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎就是這個修法的方向你們可不可以告訴我確切的唸出來你們修法條文的內容"},{"start":475.228,"end":501.295,"text":"好1085條父母保護及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女之人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為好就是最後這一句不得為子女為身心暴力之行為所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟一些公民團體出來開記者會說他們如果沒有打小孩的權利他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了當時我在教育法委員會我們就告訴教育部說"},{"start":503.555,"end":528.957,"text":"長期以來教育部必須要協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊那如果你們已經送進立法院了那是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論協助家長協助社區協助學校讓大人們學會好好的對待小孩的方法而不是因為收了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關"},{"start":529.838,"end":549.787,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":550.547,"end":575.797,"text":"如果說因為宣導的話教育部衛福部如果有需要我們保護部到場或者是協助我們一定會樂意的配合他們一定需要啦那我們一定會到場配合因為你們修這個法其實最頭痛的應該是教育部因為教育部他們有忠誠教育師他們長期必須要做家庭教育那甚至在學校裡面那我想問一下在學校裡面也適用於這一條嗎在學校裡面"},{"start":577.257,"end":599.18,"text":"因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對老師沒有這個權利為什麼我要談這件事情因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解但可能對家長來說他可能要找一個出口他可能就會去告訴學校老師說現在法律說我不能打小孩那不然小孩如果在學校很多不好管教的老師就交給你打這樣子"},{"start":600.922,"end":622.397,"text":"大家都笑了嘛所以大家都認同這個是很有可能發生的社會現象喔民法1085條這個懲戒權只有父母有老師沒有老師絕對沒有懲戒權沒錯沒錯所以我是要拜託法務部我們之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題因為我在家庭教育做超過十幾年我知道一定會有這個困境所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部"},{"start":622.757,"end":636.434,"text":"你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論開跨部會協調會議如何在你們這個相關修法的配套後有沒有相關的資源相關的可能性去跟教育部討論開啟啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長是好"},{"start":637.856,"end":665.867,"text":"那如果你們開跨部會會議有困難是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開是好那最後一個我的主張就很清楚最後一張就是1085的修正絕對是好事希望你們不要退縮但是如何協助教育部協助更多的家長透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標立法委員不能只是要了這個法修了這個法但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好好謝謝法務部謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時30分）謝謝主席。有請司法院及法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩司法院、法務部。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，你好！"],["陳委員培瑜：兩位好，午安！"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好！"],["陳委員培瑜：好！我等一下會提的可能是個案，但是我希望從通案的部分來討論，好不好？我們不要進入個案，但是我的投影片會用個案來舉例。","第一個例子的這個新聞是2025年3月的臺灣退役軍官再爆洩密案。其實當時在相關的案件調查當中，就有很多人提醒整個國安系統，過往我們可能以為只有高階軍官會受到影響、會受到滲透、會受到吸收，但是他們發現，在越來越多案例當中，其實觸角都已經延伸到低階軍官。甚至在這個案例當中，還有相關的研究員指出，不僅到低階軍官，甚至連金流的方法都變得多元，所以在查緝上也有一些新的想像必須要開展。另外，國人對這些事情的警覺性也很低，所以很多人都提出相關的擔憂。甚至曾經擔任過國防部政治作戰局文宣心戰處的處長（他已經退休了）都說，從2024年的統計，共諜案的數量驚人！我們知道，目前在刑法上它有相關的論述空間，可是他認為臺灣軍官之所以有這麼多被滲透、事件層出不窮的一個原因是來自於臺灣的司法體系對於情報竊取案件的刑罰太輕，缺乏嚴刑峻法以產生嚇阻效果。我當然只是從2025年報導出來的這個案例來說。另外一個案例是總統府憲兵翻拍相關密件賣給中國，一樣被滲透，一樣有相關的討論。","我剛剛特別拜託，我們不要從個案切入，因為今天在這個會場，你們也不適合針對個案做相關的評論與討論，可是就相關司法系統來看，我們看到相關的問題是過往很多人會認為第一個、可能有量刑太輕的問題，第二個、相關的證據扣合得不是那麼緊密，所以在做後續判決的時候，每一個法官想像的或者是檢察官想像的論述可能不大一樣，那我們怎麼看未來修法的可能性？請回答，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：先跟委員報告，國家安全法在108年的時候有修法，確實在修法之前它的法定刑並不重，可是在修法之後它有強化規範的密度，相對的，這些罪刑也有提高法定的刑度，像大家所關注的為大陸地區發展組織罪，修法之前，法定刑只有五年以下的有期徒刑，就是最高判五年，可是修法之後，它提升到七年以上的有期徒刑，所以在那個修法之後，目前我們司法院所有的判決當中，這些刑度相對都提高很多了。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是你覺得這個相對提高的狀態可以符合目前我們臺灣所遭遇到所謂共諜數量驚人的現況嗎？就您個人法務上的見解。"],["王副秘書長梅英：我覺得確實國安有它的專業性，所以這個部分也是我們司法院一直在因應的，也就是剛才有很多委員垂詢我們司法院做了哪一些措施，我們現在就是一直不斷的加強在國安軍事專庭的法官要充實專業性。"],["陳委員培瑜：他們如何對這件事情是有敏感度的，就好像在看很多兒少議題的時候，我們發現，身邊的大人如果對那個環境的敏感度很低，我們就會認為他們可能對於相關事件做出來的處理是不符合我們一般人的想像，所以如同剛剛您說的，相關的人在做出相關裁處的時候，是不是有相關的敏感度？我認為這件事情我們應該更積極地去面對跟做後續的改進，對嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們就先討論到這邊，因為我相信我們後續一定還會有其他的修法動作，我們也很希望看到，當有這麼多人提醒我們共諜數量驚人，危害到臺灣的國安系統、危害到我們一般人日常生活的時候，我都認為我們身為立法委員，或者是你們行政機關，應該要積極地面對。","我們來看下一個問題，昨天這個新聞我相信兩位一定都非常清楚，對嗎？好，我想問一下每一個人對於言論自由的解讀，現在不管是名嘴或者是不同政黨的委員，或者是不同等級的民意代表，甚至是一般的網紅，很多人都會對言論自由提出看法，我個人認為，例如說我有行動自由，可是我不能因為認為我有行動自由就跑到例如說主席的家，然後說我要住進你家，或者是我有行動自由，我看誰不高興就打他一巴掌。言論自由這件事情在臺灣，我認為多年來常常會有誤用或者是誤解的情況，導致到這一次都還有人在談言論自由。我可不可以問一下，在相關的法規範下，你們怎麼看言論自由，你們怎麼看這次這個案件？法務部，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。我想言論自由是憲法保障的基本人權，但也不是無限上綱，在衡量公共利益跟其他基本人權的保障，我們還是會用法律來加以限制，目前刑法裡面像鼓吹或煽惑他人內亂、暴動、外患，或者是煽惑犯罪，其實都有處罰的規定，最簡單的像公然侮辱或者是誹謗，這些也都有相關的刑責，所以在這種考量之下，是會用法律加以規範的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝你的回答，謝謝你特別提到了刑法，因為這一次確實臺灣內政部只對亞亞做出行政處分，因為他是依親，他並不是臺灣的公民，也不是臺灣的國民，所以我們只有請他離境，我們其實沒有動用到任何跟刑法有關的部分，但是我非常謝謝法務部剛剛提到刑法的部分，我覺得這是很重要對於國人的提醒，對於相關言論自由定義的提醒，這個釐清我認為非常重要，謝謝您的回答。","我們來看另外一個我們辦公室所長期關心的議題，就是關於民法第一千零八十五條這件事情，我知道我們在前年應該有公告要修正，對嗎？但是後來沒有相關的進度，我們可不可以問一下目前的進度跟可能遇到的困境？第一千零八十五條就是家長對於兒少的管教權這件事情，我們現在要確定一下進度，主席，時間可以幫我暫停一下嗎？"],["主席：時間先暫停、時間先暫停。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，讓他們找一下對的幕僚來回答，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：沒問題，你們討論一下，待會趕快回答，可以回答的時候，時間再起算。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以回答我們再繼續好嗎？"],["主席：沒問題。"],["徐次長錫祥：要確定一下是不是送到大院來了。"],["主席：沒關係，我們等你，就麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：已經送到大院來了。"],["陳委員培瑜：已經送到本院來了？"],["主席：OK，時間繼續計算。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以現在的態度是傾向修法嗎？就是這個修法的方向，可不可以確切念出來你們修法條文的內容？"],["徐次長錫祥：好，第一千零八十五條：父母保護及教養未成年子女，應考量子女之年齡及發展程度，尊重子女之人格，不得對子女為身心暴力行為。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就是最後這一句「不得對子女為身心暴力行為」，所以之前就有非常多的家長聯盟、一些公民團體出來開記者會說，他們如果沒有打小孩的權利，他們就不知道怎麼教小孩了，當時我在教育及文化委員會，我們就告訴教育部說，長期以來教育部必須協助家長進行家庭教育這一塊，如果你們已經送進立法院了，是不是後續法務部這邊怎麼協同教育部做一個跨部會的討論，協助家長、協助社區、協助學校，讓大人們學會好好對待小孩的方法，而不是因為修了那一句話叫做不得對兒童有身心相關暴力的行為，導致家長可能之後會不會上街抗議，會不會繼續開記者會？然後導致你們這個修法的態度就退縮回去了，這樣反而我們整個兒童人權的狀況是後退的，可不可以請法務部這邊表達一下你們的意見，以及後續可能與教育部討論、規劃的方向？謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：宣導方面，教育部、衛福部如果有需要我們法務部到場或者協助，我們一定會樂意配合。"],["陳委員培瑜：他們一定需要啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：那我們一定會到場配合。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為你們修這個法，其實最頭痛的應該是教育部。"],["徐次長錫祥：沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為教育部有終身教育司，他們長期必須做家庭教育，甚至在學校裡面，那我想問一下，在學校裡面也適用這一條嗎？在學校裡面，因為我們這個是談家長的部分對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：老師沒有這個權利。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼我要談這件事情？因為家長可能就會做出一件我們可能覺得有一點不能理解的事，但對家長來說，他可能要找一個出口，他可能就會去告訴學校老師說，現在法律說我不能打小孩，不然小孩如果在學校有很多不好管教的，就交給老師打這樣子。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：大家都笑了嘛，所以大家都認同這是很有可能發生的社會現象喔！"],["徐次長錫祥：民法第一千零八十五條這個懲戒權只有父母有。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道、我知道、我知道。"],["徐次長錫祥：老師沒有，老師絕對沒有懲戒權。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯，所以我要拜託法務部，之後教育部一定會遇到這個問題，因為我在家庭教育做了十幾年，我知道一定會有這個困境，所以我在這邊正式提出就是要拜託法務部跟教育部，你們兩個部會一定要坐下來好好討論，開跨部會協調會議，在你們相關修法的配套後，有沒有相關的資源、相關的可能性去跟教育部討論，開啟、啟動更多家庭教育方案來協助社區的家長。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果你們開跨部會會議有困難，是不是我們辦公室也可以主動來找你們一起召開？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，我的主張很清楚，就是第一千零八十五條的修正絕對是好事，希望你們不要退縮，但是如何協助教育部、協助更多的家長，透過教育部的系統去協助社區更多家長，我認為是我們未來一起努力的目標，立法委員不能只是要了這個法、修了這個法，但是相關的配套我們一起來努力好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝法務部、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員王鴻薇所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159627","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159627","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34f1acf6edc81e708a9336bc333af6bdb0320df3df7f6ba36d7778f5872ee59a395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:27:49 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者消失？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我必須非常務實的講，要讓詐騙消失不可能，但是我們一定要儘量遏止這樣的趨勢，所以最近我們其實也做了非常非常多的事情，當然有些適合講、有些不適合講，但是這已經成為我們金融業的常態，我們把它列入到日常活動裡面，持續去做阻詐的工作，我想所有金融業……"],["羅委員明才：所以我們要跟病毒共存，也要跟詐騙共存？"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不是，應該是講我們不能容忍，我們必須盡我們最大的努力去降低這件事情。"],["羅委員明才：主委，投資詐騙集中最多的大概在三十六歲到四十幾歲，原因改天再講，這些人工作了半天、努力了半天，就砰！一次就50萬，然後他會有誘因，可能帳面上說你賺了多少錢，然後就繼續再加碼投入，一出場買單可能100萬、200萬的損失，這都是工作者辛辛苦苦的血汗錢，好不容易累積了五年、十年、十幾年，一次就被騙走了，你覺得這會讓人感到同情嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，任何受害者，我們都是基於最大的關懷，但是站在金融機構，特別是銀行的角度，我覺得現在所著力的重點，應該在帳戶的管理，以及受詐金額要怎麼讓它增加追回的可能性等等，當然，這整個犯罪過程非常複雜，甚至可能跟檢調警，還有整個社會氛圍、社會狀況都有關係……"],["羅委員明才：現在看起來有很多也是透過所謂的投資虛擬貨幣或是冷錢包等等，請問什麼是冷錢包？"],["彭主任委員金隆：冷錢包就是它的儲存沒有上網連接的儲存設備。"],["羅委員明才：這占很大一部分，主管機關要不要面對？臺灣到底可不可以買賣虛擬貨幣？什麼時候可以真正上到管理的正軌？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實現在我們已經在逐步……"],["羅委員明才：因為你沒有管理，變成有很多漏洞可以詐騙，以訛傳訛，大家也搞不清楚。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這點要稍微澄清，我們現在不是沒有管理，我們是從洗錢防制的角度一步一步管理，我們現在已經有洗防聲明，接下來是洗防登記，然後我們也開始研擬虛擬資產服務商管理法，這部分我們接下來會……"],["羅委員明才：所以主委的意思是虛擬貨幣可以買賣囉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實現在虛擬貨幣在市場上就已經有交易，只是說我們現在沒有對……"],["羅委員明才：那主委我請教你，我是沒買過，很多人大概都沒買過，只是聽過，因此大家也不清楚到底規範在哪裡，其實你越不管理，問題就越多，請問主委，你可不可以教我去買一顆比特幣？我要跟誰買？怎麼樣才不會被詐騙？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個當然我沒辦法教委員，但是我覺得……"],["羅委員明才：沒關係，你的管理單位是誰？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以跟我們期局聯絡，但是上網看就有很多教學影片。"],["羅委員明才：證期局？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員明才：我覺得還是要導正，因為當美國總統川普上臺以後，他已經認可了虛擬貨幣，你要跟著世界走嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們也沒有不認可，只是我們現在在逐步納管中。"],["羅委員明才：逐步嗎？那我希望這個會期可以做一件事情，就是你教導我如何買一顆正常、安全、不會被詐騙的比特幣，整個流程讓我知道一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我請我們……"],["羅委員明才：那我請問最後一句，買一顆比特幣要花多少錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在大概在八萬多塊美金。"],["羅委員明才：臺幣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，是美金。"],["羅委員明才：美金喔！那我要稍微湊一下，你要教我喔！"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：好啦！你不用湊啦，「壁角掃掃」就有了啦！","謝謝羅委員的質詢。","下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34124123a63d663a129336bc333af6bdb0320df3df7f6ba36d74ad0faf363c552f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:16:30 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確實普惠跟公平代課我們會來努力啦半年之內希望看到你的初步報告 好嗎好 沒問題 謝謝 謝謝委員指正好 謝謝黃珊珊委員接著我們請羅明財委員主席各位 初列是官員大號 主席可不可以請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時16分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委早。我們都很關心虛擬資產業者，虛擬幣交易所申請執照只剩下7天。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：今天的新聞說，只有公告的23家裡面有4家業者提出申請，總共申請了10家，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，現在就是針對以前做洗防聲明的，大概就是如同報紙上寫的，有4家來申請登記。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以其他的都會來申請吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：據我們所知及探詢的結果，其他他們會儘量在3月30號以前提出，因為最後的緩衝期是3月31號。"],["黃委員珊珊：從主委上任以來，我們就非常關心這件事情，既然要納管，就應該要把遊戲規則公告得很清楚。第二個，我們希望所有在這裡交易的業者都能夠落地臺灣，能夠納入管理，因為大部分臺灣的民眾還是向非常非常多的境外業者在做交易，目前為止沒有一家外國業者來，你覺得原因是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在當然有外國業者跟我們提出……"],["黃委員珊珊：有在問？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：申請了沒？還沒？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們有來做報告跟說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我想主委你跟我的想法一樣，我們都希望這些業者能夠儘快落地、儘快納管，儘快完成金管會未來要訂的專法，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對於這個的思考一定是以保護我們臺灣的交易……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，所以接下來剩下7天，我想證期局還是應該要更積極努力，因為這些業者其實都在觀望，也在看你們的相關審核程序。我所知道的是，1月9號就有3家來申請，請問到現在有核准了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們是不是……還沒。"],["黃委員珊珊：1月9號至今兩個月，依照行政程序法，兩個月你們都不處理嗎？還是要等到全部時間都過了再來處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於這部分，因為我們可以緩衝到9月，我們會按照行政程序法的審核時程，該補件、該回信會按照時程請他們說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我就講，遊戲規則清楚，然後理由、問題……如果有哪些問題請一次告訴人家，不要這樣退補件、退補件，然後永遠不會成功啦！我覺得重點是你到底要不要管，你要管就認真的管，人家願意來給你管，我覺得也應該好好的來把他們納管……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然……"],["黃委員珊珊：所有只要是國人在使用的，我們都希望他能夠在臺灣登記，至少可以由政府來納管，對民眾也比較有保障。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是雙向的，民眾也希望我們能夠好好的來管理。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是他想我們就要給他，這個部分是互相的。"],["黃委員珊珊：當然，他如果不合規，當然不能……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，就是接下來在這個專法裡面，我看到你們的草案都已經出來，我們也正在研擬相關的對案，重點是接下來的部分，我上次有質詢了央行總裁，其實在所有的相關交易上，非常重要的就是美國川普總統已經把虛擬貨幣當成國家的戰略儲備……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：表示它有一定的市場價值跟政府認可、許可的地位，如果我們的虛擬資產業者交易平臺也納入管理，將來它就如同現在很多很多金管會轄下的這些相關監管單位，它也可能必須要有所謂法幣的儲備，以及虛幣的儲備……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是法幣在銀行有存保公司可以互相保障，但是虛幣現在還沒上路，虛幣畢竟要讓所有的人對交易平臺有信心，就像之前發生很多的吸金、會員卡，都必須要去信託，甚至要有一些保障、銀行履約保證，我想問一下，虛擬交易平臺的虛幣，有沒有要做儲備的規範？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員應該是講SafetyNet安全網的建置，傳統金融市場，因為它跟不特定的大眾吸收這些的資金，所以會像銀行有存保……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為虛幣現在沒有市場定位，至少某個程度，美國政府已經把某些虛幣當成虛幣儲備的方式，我是認為，既然要開專法讓這些平臺業者上路，我們要未雨綢繆，萬一將來有一家不小心，像以前的銀行倒掉，消費者求助無門，那個時候才成立存保公司……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望主委，這些業者正要進來，正要管理，我們就要預防它將來可能儲備不足的情況，我們該怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如我們現在對冷熱錢包的比重、未來要不要提存保證金。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來有沒有類似……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這都是遊戲規則，人家都要看你的遊戲規則，才決定要不要進來給你管，你的遊戲規則都還訂不清楚，就叫人家來登記，現在還搞不清楚，當然很多業者還不來登記。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，跟委員報告，登記制跟未來的專法不一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，但是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：前面都還是以洗錢防制為主體，它不是因為登記制就成為我們管轄的金融機構或是機構……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，這一天總會來的，而且就在不久的將來可能就會面對到。","第三個，接下來有非常多的業者可能已經開始上路了，民眾看到金管會公告，他非常的相信就去交易，然後發生問題，這個問題我們目前還沒有解方，我現在只是提醒你，既然有登記，民眾就會相信，當民眾相信之後，我們就有責任。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，隨著政府介入的程度越深，相對的我們的責任就越大。"],["黃委員珊珊：有關儲備的部分，我有請央行跟金管會，我們要把國際上認定目前的基準，大家來討論一下，尤其是國家把虛幣已經變成戰略儲備，將來對臺灣也會有一定的影響。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們朝這個方向來努力，接下來雖然預告了，但是我們會有……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委不是努力，它一定會來的，只是什麼時候到。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們接下來會有20場的公聽，希望廣泛蒐集各界的意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：金管會要預先做好準備。第二個問題，主委知道我們正在做反歧視法的修正方案嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：抱歉委員，我對這個比較不清楚。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，因為反歧視法其實是民法的特別法，也就是各個領域裡面，都希望能推動反歧視，其實金融保險跟你們所轄管的部分也必須要統籌，到底有多少反歧視？最明顯的例子，我現在就講給主委聽，大概就是保險，比如汽車險、強制險，女生年紀，永遠都比男生的費率低，所以你看到所有的民眾，家裡的車子都登記給女生，因為可以交比較低的保費。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這個我們會未來會把它變成單一費率。"],["黃委員珊珊：這就是一種反歧視法必須要去面對的。單一費率要去檢討。","第二個，目前都保在車主身上，沒有保在駕駛身上，所以駕駛開了媽媽的車出去撞了人，其實也不會影響他自己，也不會影響到保費。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分行政院有指示，我們會朝這個方向來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：第三個，歧視還有另外一塊比較嚴重的，很多商業保險，甚至壽險，女生的保費比較高，因為女生活得比較久。"],["彭主任委員金隆：健康險有部分是這樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：女生比較不會從事危險的行業，但是反歧視裡面，其實應該就個人的部分來做認定，而不是性別，你同意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想保險比較複雜不同的地方，比如說歐洲因為基於這個考慮，但是風險的部分，我們是完全忠實反映風險的話，就不涉及歧視的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：在反歧視上面，我希望主委從今天開始知道的話，其實有非常多民團已經來陳情，尤其是現在有些跨性別，如果去服用了一些荷爾蒙的藥物，去投保的話，保險公司會拒保，因為它認為他可能將來會有身體上的風險，這個對他們來說的確是有歧視。"],["彭主任委員金隆：新的事由，我們一向都會來審慎處理，因為本來保險是長期的合約，中間都會變化，我們一直都會面臨到類似的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我要針對幾種人，第一個跨性別者，第二個身心障礙者，身心障礙者其實都會受到一定的限制，甚至適用比較高的費率，還有高齡者，像是有一些里長、有些地方政府要幫鄰長保團保，鄰長年紀比較大，所以連團保都保不到。最後我要說，像我，主委現在看到我是一個很健康的人，但我10年前生過病，即使我現在已經完成一日北高跟跑完半馬，我還是保不到任何險，尤其是調病歷，他就說你曾經生過病，你這輩子都買不到保險，主委，這也是一種歧視吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是未來整個保險發展的趨勢，過去我們是以過去決定未來，我們現在希望未來決定未來，計費或是經驗邏輯的改變……"],["黃委員珊珊：既然有反歧視法的正當性在，開始去檢視，不管是汽車強制險還是一般的壽險，甚至剛剛講特殊的人的健康險，都需要做一些相對的討論，正視他們的權益，你可以收比較高的保費，而不是讓他完全沒有保障。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我非常認同，因為環境在變，整個保險也要因應環境改變。"],["黃委員珊珊：要與時俱進，第二個，你買的是未來的安全，其實過去生過病，是會好的，可是沒有保險公司會認為你好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我慢慢會從損害填補變成損害預防兼顧的方式來做這件事。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望金管會是不是在半年之內，沒有很久喔！身心障礙、跨性別跟高齡這幾樣的投保狀況討論、檢討。第二個，是不是能夠跟保險業者來就主委所說的，我們怎麼樣用未來保障未來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：普惠跟公平待客，我們會來努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：半年之內希望看到你的初步報告，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，沒問題，謝謝委員指正。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員，接著請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34221a569cc74cf48a280a1269ac70bedc320df3df7f6ba36d34c366ed1daa38bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:24:51 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再來你說三檢預算的影響三檢項目過度集中行政機關運作受影響那媒體政策及業務宣導會通算60我不曉得有沒有自行調整但是在這安專院我來跟你請教一下只要是對著農業部的1450今年你要辛苦一下"},{"start":246.821,"end":266.122,"text":"把你所有的文宣費用或是怎樣的媒體的政策也給我們一目了然在只要針對1450因為1450給農業部背了很大的黑鍋可以從此改洗一下我們沒有1450我們這樣的錢也做出好的成績出來"},{"start":267.482,"end":293.348,"text":"謝謝委員說1450對農業部來講是一個黑鍋其實農業部非常多的業務是需要透過宣導的主席請我講久一點 還沒談到主席不要馬上站起來好 繼續我現在要請教你一個問題 我覺得很奇怪非洲滋潤防疫宣導你們的報告裡面說飛機進來的時候要去宣導 要花錢嘛"},{"start":294.765,"end":323.299,"text":"我現在問這個問題給你我覺得我每次坐飛機回來的時候有在飛機上廣播一下有聽跟沒有聽這個要特別注意您說的365天都要先到這裡面花了多少錢外國的飛機台灣的飛機國家的政策叫他來講你告訴我這個理由我怎麼會接受這個是政策可以強迫航空公司我們不要付錢"},{"start":324.225,"end":348.791,"text":"我跟委員報告 航空公司的功課很貴耶這樣很貴喔 這樣我們再給他收集 我們的國家要不就領我們台灣要不就領這個裡面 包括登記多少錢進來都是在那個宣傳單裡面只講了幾句話 飛機下來講了幾句話 要花那麼多的錢台灣也是太弱了嘛 說你是...這一點不用付錢"},{"start":351.592,"end":377.482,"text":"你們一定要去談判我只舉一個例子所以在媒體政策及AO先導通商的部分確實這邊再改進一下艱苦一下訓練自己一下好不好不要說一算三了什麼都不能做但是裡面很多必須要做的事情我們還是會努力的去達到是必要的大家有必要我再來講"},{"start":379.008,"end":385.211,"text":"你的補治農業特別收入基金3.9千萬農業特別基金有農業發展基金 農業天然栽培補進 農業進口兼職補治金一共總共的金額多少611億"},{"start":395.237,"end":420.028,"text":"六八十一億好 六八十一億九千萬一個基金三千萬啊你就還還缺啊沒有沒有 我要跟委員報告齁基金公務博物基金雖然刪了九千萬非常少但是刪了以後因為預算法的關係以後基金如果超支不能重用第二立法基金"},{"start":420.848,"end":427.511,"text":"你這個3個基金在調我們沒有大行災害都同時來的沒有辦法我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你"},{"start":443.397,"end":449.3,"text":"我給委員報告 要委員集齊啦因為天然災害救助基金 去年多撥補了40億我知道 我有看過資料題 不然高清環就害他了高清環影響的是動用第二預備金國內的理運會 通商二十 國外的理運會 這個我確實"},{"start":467.951,"end":481.162,"text":"三個比較需要我去協調我幫你協調可以自行調整你一定可以自行調整你現在當了部長看你回答我今天看你回答非常的深入"},{"start":484.249,"end":491.338,"text":"我們要為成功想辦法不要為失敗找藉口我從來不會為失敗找藉口我們只是重現出一些事實"},{"start":498.8,"end":524.811,"text":"陳先生我是這樣簡單講那個站起來了好像我講的有批評到的就站起來不會啦不會給我再三分鐘好不好謝謝你站起來我就緊張我們都好我以為有批評你我要恭喜你你們這次裡面有一個很大的成就就是關於口蹄疫的口蹄疫的話"},{"start":526.417,"end":537.082,"text":"WOH五月份就要決定了要辭職營這花了24年的結果拔針終於要成功了好不好有沒有信心成功"},{"start":542.43,"end":561.866,"text":"口蹄疫已經飛疫區了飛疫區到五月份才能公正報告沒有 那個是傳統豬瘟豬有三個疫病一個是非洲豬瘟一個是口蹄疫一個是傳統豬瘟傳統豬瘟是最困難的我們花了四年而且是大家一起努力的結果已經通過了還是五月份才通過"},{"start":562.406,"end":587.321,"text":"沒有,它的科學委員會已經正式的通過建議大會那五月份是WHO的大會,大會會正式的宣布臺灣的製作是有名的但是現在市場也被列入了差不多固守本位再加公平多多加油來照顧我們這些養殖的一個農民好不好我們會努力"},{"start":588.182,"end":594.333,"text":"好不好 實在很多話要跟你請教 仔細又站起來了我不好意思再批評了 以後不給我講話謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":450,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時25分）主席，首先有請我們農業部的陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["陳委員超明：陳部長好。我常常講我們農業部還有國發會的業務報告寫得非常好，你們的業務報告我都拿了3本要珍藏起來，今年我就要看你們的業務報告，值得肯定，但是這裡面我第一個要請教你的問題是，你在業務報告裡面寫114年度總預算增加63.1億是為了照顧農民，為了升級產業，為了守護生命財產的安全，這裡面又包括三大項：第一，國土保安與基礎建設；第二，產業升級；第三，農民福利與生活。今天我也要藉此機會特別感謝我們以前的水保局、現在的農村發展署，還有我們的林務局、現在的林業署，從山上到丘陵地所做的，我們算是肯定跟滿意，但是我們的農村發展署李署長大概六月份就要退休了，所以我藉這個機會先表達一下，我怕沒有機會了，因為我不曉得你什麼時候要退休。我今天跟你這樣說，你知道我的用意在哪裡嗎？增加63.1億，沒有刪預算，所以不要亂講。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有、沒有、沒有，委員，我要說明一下，我們增加預算是要做更多事情……"],["陳委員超明：好、好，等一下，我有看你後面……"],["陳部長駿季：不是說沒有增加事情而增加預算，這兩個完全不一樣。"],["陳委員超明：這裡面有談到整體性治山防災計畫、農地重劃區基礎建設升級計畫，還有重劃區緊急農路設施改善計畫，我希望要持續進行，我們的農水署蔡署長很努力，跟我跑苗栗跑了好幾次，你大概了解到我們苗栗需要改進的地方，我們農村發展署也上山下海跟我去調查，做了不錯的成績出來，請繼續努力、繼續幫忙，雖然你要退休了，我再次鼓勵你把任務完成，部長，要不要支持我們苗栗縣？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，不只是苗栗，全臺灣農業有關的，我們一定都支持啦。"],["陳委員超明：沒有，我講苗栗的部分，別的我又不曉得，我就是把我的任務做好、工作做好，拜託，請全力支持好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：你在講的，你算算看有哪一樣沒有支持？"],["陳委員超明：都有支持，我就是特別感謝你嘛，再加強一次，因為你很實在。這裡面也可以看出來你很用心，你在農民福利與生活裡面，農業用電的優惠及電價凍漲的差額，你已經準備好了，大概你有先見之明、未卜先知。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，這是去年漲價的部分，我們編的……"],["陳委員超明：很多委員都問了這個問題，我今天就不問了，寫下來有增加63.1億，我相信你一定會很好運作的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員超明：再來，你提到刪減預算的影響，刪減項目過度集中，行政機關運作受影響，媒體政策及業務宣導費通刪60%，我不曉得有沒有自行調整，我來跟你請教一個問題，只要是對著農業部的1450，今年你要辛苦一下，把你所有的文宣費用或是怎樣的媒體政策讓我們一目瞭然，只要針對1450，因為1450讓農業部背了很大的黑鍋，可以從此改洗一下，我們沒有1450，我們這樣的錢也能夠做出好的成績。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員說1450對農業部來講是一個黑鍋，其實農業部有非常多業務需要透過宣導。"],["陳委員超明：主席，給我講久一點，我還沒談得很仔細，不要馬上站起來。","我現在要請教你一個問題，我覺得很奇怪，關於非洲豬瘟防疫宣導，你們的報告裡面提及，飛機進來的時候宣導要花錢，現在要問你這個問題，我覺得我每次坐飛機回來的時候，有，在飛機上廣播一下，有聽跟沒有聽一樣，這個要特別注意。你們說365天都要宣導，這裡面花了多少錢？外國的飛機、臺灣的飛機，國家的政策叫它來講嘛！你跟我說這個理由，我怎麼會接受嘛？這個是政策，可以強迫航空公司，我們不要付錢。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，航空公司的廣告很貴欸！"],["陳委員超明：很貴喔？這樣我們要多收錢，我們國家要有力量，我們臺灣要有力量，這個裡面包括登記多少錢，進來都是在那個宣傳單裡面。只講了幾句話，飛機下來講了幾句話要花那麼多的錢，臺灣也是太弱了嘛，還說很夠力。這一點不用付錢，你們一定要去談判，我只是舉一個例子。在媒體政策及業務宣導通刪的部分，確實這一邊再改進一下、辛苦一下、訓練自己一下，好不好？不要說預算刪了就什麼都不能動！"],["陳部長駿季：刪減已經成為事實了，但是裡面很多必須要做的事情，我們還是會努力去達到！"],["陳委員超明：好，我曉得你們講過是必要的，大家有必要。我再來講，你的補助農業特別收入基金刪減9,000萬，農業特別基金有農業發展基金、農業天然災害救助基金、農業受進口損害救助基金，總共金額多少？"],["陳部長駿季：611億。"],["陳委員超明：9,000萬，一個基金3,000萬，這樣你就唉唉叫了！"],["陳部長駿季：不，我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：哎喲！我都不知道，我想著你是個實在人！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我要跟委員報告，公務撥補基金雖然刪了9,000萬非常少，但是刪了以後，因為預算法的關係，以後基金如果超支，不能動用第二預備金。"],["陳委員超明：9,000萬去調啦！這三個基金去調整，我們又不是每件事情都會知道，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，沒有辦法，特別是天然災害救助基金……"],["陳委員超明：現在放在三個基金裡面，你看怎麼去調整嘛！好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，如果基金這麼容易調來調去，那什麼事情都沒有了。"],["陳委員超明：因為你是老實人，我不跟你計較。"],["陳部長駿季：這個很重要。"],["陳委員超明：我不跟你爭論。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，要委員支持啦！"],["陳委員超明：好啦！好啦！我會支持。"],["陳部長駿季：天然災害救助基金去年多撥補了40億。"],["陳委員超明：我知道、我知道，我有看過這些資料，不要9,000萬就唉唉叫。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有啦，不是啦……"],["陳委員超明：一個部長這樣叫難看啦！"],["陳部長駿季：9,000萬影響的是動用第二預備金。"],["陳委員超明：再來，國內旅運費通刪20%，還有國外差旅費，這個確實刪得比較……需要我去協調，我幫你協調，可以自行調整，你一定可以自行調整。你是有能力的，你現在當了部長，我今天看你回答非常的深入，我們要為成功想辦法，不要為失敗找藉口，像這樣刪也沒有多少，我相信你一定有辦法解決，不要說得那麼可憐。"],["陳部長駿季：我從來不會為失敗找藉口，我們只是呈現出一些事實。"],["陳委員超明：我是這樣簡單說啦！主席站起來了，好像我講得有批評到了就站起來。"],["主席：不會啦！"],["陳委員超明：不會就再給我3分鐘，好不好？好，謝謝，你站起來我就緊張，因為我有批評。","我要恭喜你，你們這次裡面有一個很大的成就，就是關於口蹄疫，WOAH 5月份就要決定了，要持之以恆，這花了24年的結果，拔針終於要成功了，好不好？有沒有信心成功？口蹄疫？"],["陳部長駿季：口蹄疫，我們已經是非疫區了。"],["陳委員超明：非疫區到5月份才能公證報告？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，那個是傳統豬瘟。"],["陳委員超明：傳統豬瘟？"],["陳部長駿季：豬有三個疫病，一個是非洲豬瘟，一個是口蹄疫，一個是傳統豬瘟，傳統豬瘟是最困難的，我們花了24年，而且是大家一起努力……"],["陳委員超明：已經通過了，還是5月份才通過？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，它的科學委員會已經正式通過建議大會，5月份是WOAH的大會，大會會正式的宣布。"],["陳委員超明：這表示臺灣的努力啦！臺灣的豬肉是有名的，但是現在市場也被掠奪得差不多，固守本位，多多加油來照顧我們這些養殖的農民，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會努力！"],["陳委員超明：再持續努力，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員超明：實在有很多話要跟你請教。主席又站起來了，我不好意思再批評了，以後不給我講話，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員，謝謝陳部長，謝謝兩位。","接下來我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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楊秋雲發言我們一併邀請司法院 法務部跟警政署好 麻煩三位上台"},{"start":22.664,"end":41.941,"text":"針對我們今天修法的主題在我們憲法第114年的憲判制第16號判決當中大法官認定刑事訴訟法第205條之二的規定有抵觸憲法保障資訊隱私權以及免於身心受害"},{"start":42.802,"end":58.995,"text":"的身體權的情況因此判定了刑事訴訟法有關強制採尿的規定是違憲的那麼因此相關機關單位呢必須要修法以符合憲法的規定那所以在這樣的情況之下在我們看到宣判違憲"},{"start":60.396,"end":86.975,"text":"到修法這段時間呢那麼執行的方式大概以非侵入性的方式採取尿液需要報請檢察官核發鑑定許可書後才能夠執行但是如果情況緊迫的時候呢可以依照規定以非侵入性方式來採取尿液但應於採尿後的24小時內呢呈報該這個管的檢察官來許可那檢察官如果認為不應"},{"start":88.476,"end":103.477,"text":"許可者應於三日內來撤銷受檢查者於受採尿液後十天之內申請該管法院來撤銷所以請教三位在這一次的修法是將上述的規範要落法"},{"start":105.9,"end":124.518,"text":"所以入法之後要入法所以請教司法院還有我們的警政單位那麼以及法務部在過去兩年多的執行情況究竟為何那麼對於我們整個在署務上的檢警辦案的影響是什麼因為警察機關跟法務部之間"},{"start":127.12,"end":137.728,"text":"的一個溝通聯繫它是否有即時因為我們認知到保障人權以及維護治安的穩定跟讓檢警辦案的一個狀態它都必須採取到一個平衡點請做說明"},{"start":145.298,"end":167.558,"text":"像那個委員報告齁因為在那個1111那個憲判第16號呢他在判決中其實就這個問題就已經有處理了齁就是說在那個修法之前呢從這個大法官的這個判決公告之後呢就要依這個判決他所所以這兩年多就是照這個來執行嗎是是是好那麼法務部呢"},{"start":170.505,"end":196.168,"text":"這兩年來我們執行就是申請檢察官許可的有一萬兩千兩百五十八件那緊急採釀以後報許可的有六千五百七十八件所以等於一半嘛對 一半目前執行是這樣是一半 報警檢察官許可那在最後是一半六千多件原因呢這個可能要第一線執行的好 來 請再說明"},{"start":197.885,"end":216.871,"text":"委員好,那個111年,憲判16號完了以後,警政署就已經訂出一個SOP,函令各全國警察機關按照我們憲判16號來執行也就是說如果他同意,那同意,告訴他他會拒絕,那同意了以後就直接用非侵入性的來採尿"},{"start":217.771,"end":233.042,"text":"那如果不同意的話,我們就報警檢察官,全體可輸那如果說因為檢警共用大概我們目前分配雖然24小時,但我們檢警共用16小時如果他真的不願意,然後時間又緊迫的話那我們就移情到檢察官,讓檢察官回到依他的職權來採尿"},{"start":234.583,"end":254.048,"text":"依照目前的SOP流程 今天主要是討論怎麼樣的路法所以我們也希望 剛剛我強調了在治安的方面的穩定性以及在執行的方面能夠達到一個平衡點接下來本席要請教上市煙彈 也就是毒品問題 我們來討論司法院請先回座"},{"start":257.569,"end":275.936,"text":"那這個喪屍煙彈依托彌子持續在國內來盛行去年政府也將它列為二級毒品但是現在的這個新型毒品我一直猖獗所以包括了鎮丙、帕子"},{"start":276.736,"end":300.045,"text":"也已經在流通那企圖要來規避整個法制的法律的一個制裁當然在上個月法務部也緊急召開了審議委員會經過了專家的評估也確認要認為它是高度成癮性與社會的危礙性有火速的決議要列為二級毒品據聞近期要正式公告 是嗎已經公告了什麼時候公告的"},{"start":307.327,"end":331.42,"text":"3月24號就前幾天公告那請問市長我們現在面對這些毒販不斷地改版這些新鮮的毒品那我們要怎麼樣應對呢尤其警政署這邊毒物快篩劑以及光譜儀這些設備是不是能夠篩選出新的這些毒品它應對夠不夠"},{"start":332.981,"end":342.667,"text":"因為你必須要 設備要充足因為它不斷地在熱血液 至少你已經列入二級毒品的部分能不能篩檢出配套措施夠不夠 請做說明"},{"start":346.261,"end":372.982,"text":"跟委員報告這個確實新興毒品的試劑對於各個鑑識實驗室來講都是一種挑戰那從去年開始上市驗斷那我們兩個同仁因為被吸毒者撞死了以後然後我們去研究他的盛行率所以我們把從三級提升到二級那證明PARTS的部分也把它列入公告了依據在4月3號大概就會變成二級毒品那這個部分我想"},{"start":374.244,"end":390.385,"text":"我們昨天才通令各全國警察機關包括刑大還有鑑識單位到我們警政署來接受整個試劑的確認測試我們去年大概在警政署的部分我們大概有編訂了300多萬去做快篩試劑"},{"start":391.667,"end":416.261,"text":"但是新興毒品它必須要有專業性選擇性也就是說我們要盡量減少它的偽陽性因為這是初篩而已剛剛委員講的這些除了初篩試劑還有我們像我們實驗室裡面的機器MAS事實上我們都有在編列預算那逐步的那當然現在能量能除了靠公家機關以外可能還是沒辦法去負荷這樣的一個鑑定的能量因為我們因為"},{"start":417.222,"end":432.667,"text":"不管是安慰他命依托彌子等等這些我們都有設定專案的掃蕩所以我們最近才做第12波的案區專案就在我們高檢署你們指揮底下去執行那因為掃蕩了以後就會有大量毒品進來那就很多的一些鑑定的量能"},{"start":432.987,"end":440.453,"text":"必須要監聽那我們高監署也在協助看其他的我們根據全國認證基金會TAF裡面的認證實驗室裡面這些能夠協助我們全國的警察機關因為3月24號也將這個正品帕子"},{"start":452.382,"end":474.457,"text":"也列為二級低頻那下個月就開始要執行所以本席也就提出我知道大家辛苦但是我們既然有這個政策方向我們就要怎麼樣好好的能夠去應對那麼你們應該好好去盤點不管是民間的基金會但大家好好能夠讓我們的社會治安能夠更加的穩定謝謝謝謝主委 指導好 謝謝楊委員那我們現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":572,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時17分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。我們一併邀請司法院、法務部跟警政署。"],["主席：好，麻煩三位上臺。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對我們今天修法的主題，在憲法法庭111年的憲判字第16號判決當中，大法官認定刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二的規定有牴觸憲法保障資訊隱私權，以及免於身心受害的身體權的情況，因此判定刑事訴訟法有關強制採尿的規定是違憲的。所以相關機關必須修法，以符合憲法的規定。","在這樣的情況之下，我們看到從宣判違憲到修法的這段時間，執行的方式大概是，以非侵入性的方式採取尿液，需要報請檢察官核發鑑定許可書後才能夠執行，但是如果情況緊迫的時候，可以依照規定，以非侵入性的方式來採取尿液，但應於採尿後的24小時內，呈報該管檢察官來許可，檢察官如果認為不應許可者，應於3日內撤銷，由受檢查者於受採尿液後10天之內聲請該管法院來撤銷。所以請教三位，這一次的修法是要將上述的規範入法，所以請教司法院、警政單位，以及法務部，過去兩年多的執行情況究竟為何？對於整個在實務上檢警辦案的影響是什麼？警察機關跟法務部之間的溝通聯繫是否有即時？因為我們認知到保障人權和維護治安的穩定，以及讓檢警順利辦案的狀態，都必須採取一個平衡點，請做說明。"],["王副秘書長梅英：向委員報告，因為在111年憲判字第16號的判決中，就這個問題其實就已經有處理了，就是說，在修法之前，從大法官這個判決公告之後，就要依這個判決所說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這兩年多就是照這個來執行嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是、是，這是第一線的執行情形。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那麼法務部呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：這兩年來，我們的執行，就是申請檢察官許可的有1萬2,258件，緊急採尿以後報許可的有6,578件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以等於一半嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對，一半，目前執行是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是一半，在最後報請檢察官許可的是一半，六千多件？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：原因呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個可能要第一線執行的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請再說明。"],["林副局長故廷：委員好！111年憲判16號公布以後，警政署就已經訂出一個SOP，函令各全國警察機關按照憲判16號來執行，也就是告訴他可以拒絕，如果他同意，就直接用非侵入性的方式採尿，如果不同意的話，我們就報請檢察官簽許可書，雖然目前是24小時，但是因為檢警共用，我們大概分配到16小時，如果他真的不願意，時間又緊迫的話，我們就移請到檢察官，讓檢察官回到依他的職權來採尿……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就依照目前的這個SOP流程，然後今天主要是討論怎麼樣入法……"],["林副局長故廷：是、是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以我們也希望剛剛我強調的，也就是在治安方面的穩定性以及在執行方面能夠達到一個平衡點。"],["林副局長故廷：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。接下來本席要請教喪屍煙彈，也就是我們來討論毒品問題。司法院請先回座。","喪屍煙彈（依托咪酯）持續在國內盛行，去年政府已將它列為二級毒品，但是現在新型毒品一直猖獗，包括正丙帕酯也已經在流通，企圖要來規避法律的制裁，當然上個月法務部也緊急召開審議委員會，經過專家的評估，確認它具高度成癮性與社會危害性，也火速決議要將它列為二級毒品，據聞，近期要正式公告，是嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：已經公告了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候公告的？"],["徐次長錫祥：3月24日。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就前幾天公告。請問次長，現在面對這些毒販不斷的改版這些新興毒品，我們要怎麼樣應對呢？尤其警政署這邊，毒物快篩劑以及光譜儀這些設備是不是能夠篩檢出這些新的毒品？我們的應對夠不夠？我們必須設備要充足，因為它不斷的日新月異，至少已經列入二級毒品的部分，能不能篩檢出？配套措施夠不夠？請做說明。"],["林副局長故廷：跟委員報告，確實新興毒品的試劑對於各個鑑識實驗室來講都是一種挑戰，從去年開始喪屍煙彈，因為我們兩個同仁被吸毒者撞死以後，我們去研究它的盛行率，所以我們把它從三級提升到二級，正丙帕酯的部分，也列入公告，預計大概4月3日就會變成二級毒品。","這個部分我們昨天才通令全國各警察機關，包括刑大，還有鑑識單位，到我們警政署來接受整個試劑的確認測試。試劑的確認測試，去年我們警政署大概編定三百多萬去做快篩試劑，但是新興毒品必須要有專一性、選擇性，也就是要儘量減少它的偽陽性，因為這是初篩而已。剛剛委員講的，除了初篩試劑，還有我們實驗室裡面的機器Mars，事實上，我們都有逐步的編列預算。當然現在的量能只靠公家機關可能還是沒辦法負荷這樣的鑑定能量，因為不管是安非他命、依托咪酯等等，我們都有設定專案的掃蕩，最近我們才做第12波的安居專案，這在高檢署指揮底下去執行，掃蕩了以後，就會有大量毒品進來，就需要有很多鑑定的量能……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：必須要鑑定。"],["林副局長故廷：對，高檢署也在協助，看其他根據全國認證基金會（TAF）認證的實驗室也能夠協助全國的警察機關、檢察機關鑑定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，因為3月24日也將正丙帕酯列為二級毒品，下個月就開始要執行……"],["林副局長故廷：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席就提出，我知道大家辛苦，但是我們既然有這個政策方向，就要能夠好好的去應對，那麼你們應該好好去盤點……"],["林副局長故廷：有、有、有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管是民間的基金會等，大家能夠好好的讓我們的社會治安更加的穩定。"],["林副局長故廷：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["林副局長故廷：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時24分）","繼續開會（11時30分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea340fb3b0261b7af505280a1269ac70bedc320df3df7f6ba36dde7eaf727ba7c6f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:15:17 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請陳部長好 請陳部長委員長部長這個月在台北發生了比特犬有二度咬人的事件那市主也有受到管理不當的部分開罰了20萬元但是我們看到我們2022年的3月1號比特犬就列為禁止飼養了"},{"start":35.447,"end":48.872,"text":"禁止飼養的所以我們希望他們可以用整個管理上來做登記跟決議的部分而且被查的這個比特犬現在目前雖然禁養但是現在還有3974隻那但是"},{"start":53.133,"end":69.798,"text":"這三千多隻的話 你有沒有去落實去管理 那就很重要所以 還看到會發生了這個比特權咬人事件 甚至還有被咬死孩童的這個案例喔 那我請問部長 這個是不是你們要再加嚴管理加嚴來懲罰"},{"start":73.279,"end":92.81,"text":"這個事件凸顯了寵物的分級分類管理的重要這第一個第二個部分就是針對有公共安全危險的這些寵物事實上我們會陸續的去公告那以比特權來講就像您說的將近4000隻本身是列管的而且我們已經有很明確的規範"},{"start":94.071,"end":112.064,"text":"當你一旦被列管的時候這些寵物如果要帶出門的時候第一個你的牽引繩的程序你要戴口罩而且要有成年人因為有時候力量太大一定要有成年人陪伴有這些規範之下你如果違反的時候所以這要加強管理嘛怎麼樣去教育跟訓練我覺得我們現在很多寵物我們"},{"start":117.128,"end":133.512,"text":"在動保室裡面我們有一個專案一直要去強調事主的責任因為事主的責任如果落實的時候我相信後面很多包括這種動物的咬人的事情或者是流浪犬的問題那個問題就可以簡化對 就在動保法裡面我們就要加強規範像他出入公眾場所他這個牽繩這牽繩距離1.5公尺"},{"start":139.773,"end":156.009,"text":"你要有牽繩甚至他出去外面如果這狗狗他未來他是很兇猛的話你看到很多的話還有嘴巴會加個套子對不對以防他會去咬人嘛這些都必須要有加強規範那所以我們也希望說我們在"},{"start":157.671,"end":178.973,"text":"部長你這邊很多的條例我們就要在我們中央統一來規範你不能丟給地方政府用地方自治法去做這樣子的話有些地方還是沒有規範到那我們桃園對於這個牽繩的部分我們桃園是統一規定你只要帶到戶外公眾場所都要有牽繩那其他地方還是沒有那部長"},{"start":179.654,"end":204.643,"text":"要不要統一來規範我跟委員報告剛才我講的就是說他出入公共場所裡面的基本規範都已經在動保法裡面有規範了全國都要對都要而且是地方政府的落實度你說的動保法有事現在你們規範還沒有實施只是你們送進去行政院而已嗎沒有沒有這個動保法有規有危險的犬隻已經在動保法裡面有規定了"},{"start":205.283,"end":225.561,"text":"其他的犬隻也會有啊對 相對的就是 我想剛才說的當然危險的有 但沒有危險的不曉得他什麼動作萬一說行人啊 那個用路人他有受到威脅啊 騎腳踏車 狗啊 追他的時候他也會跌倒 這些都還是要用牽繩來規範的我想第一個部分喔 就是"},{"start":227.042,"end":256.462,"text":"因為犬隻本身有危險性的或比較沒危險性的喔我們在這個動物的分級寵物的分級分類裡面就是因為有分級部長你不要說危險性的比特犬牠可能說比較肌肉比較強比較咬合力比較大牠是危險性的但是你說沒有危險性也不一定喔像很多我們民眾的投訴裡面就有很多流浪狗還是狗隻會追人用路的人被追騎腳踏車也被追小孩子回家也被咬"},{"start":257.662,"end":269.107,"text":"這些情形都一再的在發生所以我們是不是應該統一要規範說不只說是危險性的一般的只要你事主都有負責管理的責任你沒有教育好 管理好"},{"start":270.356,"end":289.488,"text":"就會發生這種問題嗎非常同意委員的意見我剛才說的在動保法裡面針對危險的選擇已經有規範了然後您剛才注重的就是除了危險選擇以外其他的選擇也有可能發生那當時在動保法的時候也有把它列進去後來在委員討論的時候被不是您啦"},{"start":290.208,"end":297.515,"text":"被一些委員把他拿掉了不過我想這一次我們會重新考可是部長你忘了你在2023年4月的時候提這個修正的版本送到行政院的這有一個有四個的層面你們都有提進去一個就是世俗的這個責任"},{"start":306.804,"end":329.627,"text":"還有就是對管理我們的動物的這個利用跟虐待的傷害還有一個就是對於寵物產業的管理跟我們檢察員的執法四個層面你都送到行政院那所以說我們要統一規範的話那行政院你們已經送進去了2023年4月送進去去年的這個8月份也呈報這行政院什麼時候"},{"start":331.158,"end":358.855,"text":"你要送進來立法院我想那個行政院審議完了以後我們一定會第一時間送進去年到現在已經兩年了2023年到2024到2025年已經兩年了什麼時候每次問部長你這個事情的時候你都叫年底年底年底不了了是過了兩年了很抱歉因為行政院的審議的時候他有不同的法案在審理我們會那你有去了解嗎需要你解釋的需要修正的我們一定去解釋"},{"start":361.116,"end":388.789,"text":"最重要就是說我們一定是行政院審議我會拜託行政院能夠優先來審議那有什麼時間什麼時間要送進來立法院我問了以後再跟委員回覆好不好我現在不敢隨便講比較重要的我跟委員報告比較重要的是在因為法院法案在審查之後還有一些時程在這個空窗期的時候兩年了對在這個空窗期的時候我們可不可以用一些指引的方式去對地方政府去做傳達"},{"start":390.51,"end":413.717,"text":"是 所以在這邊我要跟部長再三的強調就是說這個部分不要讓各地各地方政府自己去決定地方自治去決定我們應該統一在中央有一個一套的這個規範出來這樣子的話民眾在飼養他的動物的時候他可以用教育他或者訓練他或者加強管理如果說管理不當的情形之下我們要再加強嚴懲而且"},{"start":415.518,"end":420.429,"text":"我們的統一的規範也希望你們早日公布 讓我們動保法可以去執行"},{"start":421.172,"end":425.573,"text":"了解 我們努力接下來我們要請問的就是因為美國在4月份提出這個對等關稅的部分在對等關稅的話也把我們國家列到骯髒15國裡面也就是整個經濟貿易的這個有逆差順差這個情形的發生的話那我們特別提到的就是我們農漁業這個部分農業我們台灣的進口"},{"start":446.838,"end":460.249,"text":"是比出口的多所以在黃小玉的出口是原物料那台灣像美國出口的加工農產品的話在2024年來講的話台灣對美國農業貿易的利差將近了29億的美元所以美國會不會對我們的對等關稅裡面加強我們的關稅"},{"start":468.095,"end":496.078,"text":"我想根據川普的對外的釋出的訊息他的對等關稅的完整的措施是在4月2號他會公布那這個期間其實我們政府在OTN的協助之下我們也做了相關的盤點對農業來講一個比較好的地方是對美國農產貿易我們對他們來講是順差是順差然後接下來就是說這些關稅本身它是一次性的還是個別性的去談"},{"start":496.578,"end":513.886,"text":"所以部長都要去了解我們持續的去了解去關心但是目前我想我們還是積極的在輔導我們的產業升級跟轉型最重要一點就是任何的後續的調整一定要去維持我們產業的競爭力本席會在這邊提醒部長的話就是我們擔心的是美國為了說這個農產品這個關稅來做誘因邀請我國放寬對於美國的豬肉跟牛肉含有萊克多巴胺的成分的標準"},{"start":526.311,"end":548.679,"text":"像調整這個下降這個標準甚至於讓那個美牛這個高風險的部位的強制來扣關影響國人的健康這一點請農業部一定要堅守好不好我想我們以農業部來講我們會積極的輔導我們國內的豬肉的一個供應而且台灣的習性相信百分之九十百分之八十八到百分之九十左右都是用國產肉的部分"},{"start":549.3,"end":562.178,"text":"這個部分我想我們會持續來...不要因為我們農漁業的關稅給我們一些減免的或者是免身關稅的誘因你就犧牲國人的健康這個是很重要的請部長可以堅守謝謝李委員 謝謝陳部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":400,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時15分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，這個月在臺北發生了比特犬二度咬人的事件，飼主管理不當的部分也開罰了20萬元，但是我們看到2022年3月1號比特犬就列為禁止飼養了，所以我們希望在整個管理上他們可以來做登記跟絕育的部分，而且要備查，比特犬目前雖然禁養，但是現在還有3,974隻，這三千多隻你有沒有去落實管理就很重要，所以才會看到發生了比特犬咬人的事件，甚至還有咬死孩童的案例。我請問部長，你們是不是要再加嚴管理、加嚴懲罰？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個事件凸顯了寵物分級分類管理的重要，這是第一個。第二個部分，針對有公共安全、危險的這些寵物，事實上我們會陸續地公告。以比特犬來講，就像您說的，將近4,000隻本身是被列管的，而且我們已經有很明確的規範，一旦被列管的時候，這些寵物如果要帶出門，第一個，你的牽引繩繩距、要戴口罩，而且要有成年人陪伴，因為有時候力量太大，所以一定要有成年人陪伴，在這些規範之下，你如果違反的時候就必須處罰。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這要加強管理嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會加強管理，而且是飼主的責任。"],["呂委員玉玲：要教飼主怎樣去教育跟訓練。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得現在很多寵物……我們在動保司裡面有一個專案，一直要去強調飼主的責任，因為飼主的責任如果有落實，我相信後面很多包括這種動物咬人的事情，或者是流浪犬的問題就可以簡化。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，所以在動保法裡面我們就要加強規範，像牠出入公眾場所要有牽繩，牽繩距離要在1.5公尺內，甚至牠出去外面，如果狗狗是很兇猛的話，你可以看到有很多的主人會在嘴巴加個套子，對不對？以防牠會去咬人嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：這些都必須要加強規範，所以我們也希望很多的條例要由中央統一來規範，部長你不能丟給地方政府用地方自治法去做，這樣子的話有些地方還是沒有規範到。像我們桃園對於牽繩的部分是統一規定，你只要帶到戶外、公共場所，都要有牽繩，但其他地方還是沒有。部長，你要不要統一來規範？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，剛才我講的就是牠出入公共場所裡面的基本規範，在動保法裡面都已經有規範了，現在是……"],["呂委員玉玲：全國都要？"],["陳部長駿季：對，都要，而且視地方政府的重視度……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你說動保法有，是現在你們有規範，但還沒有實施……"],["陳部長駿季：危險犬隻……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們只是送去行政院而已嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，危險的犬隻在動保法裡面已經有規定了。"],["呂委員玉玲：其他的犬隻也會有啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，相對的就是，我想剛才說的……"],["呂委員玉玲：當然危險的有，但沒有危險的，不曉得牠會做什麼動作，萬一行人、用路人也受到威脅，騎腳踏車時狗要追他，他也會跌倒，這些都還是要用牽繩來規範的。"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個部分就是因為犬隻本身是有危險性的或比較沒危險性的，我們在寵物的分級分類裡面會註記……"],["呂委員玉玲：就是因為有分級，部長你不要說危險性，比特犬可能肌肉比較強，咬合力比較大，所以牠是危險性的，但是你說沒有危險性也不一定，像我們民眾的投訴裡面就有很多流浪狗還是狗隻會追人，用路人被追，騎腳踏車也被追，小孩子回家也被咬，這些情形都一再地發生，所以我們是不是應該要統一規範？不只是危險性的，一般的，只要你是飼主都有負責管理的責任，你沒有教育好、管理好，就會發生這種問題。"],["陳部長駿季：非常同意委員的意見。我剛才說了，在動保法裡面針對危險的犬隻已經有規範了，然後應該來注重的就是，除了危險犬隻以外，其他的犬隻也有可能會發生，當時在修動保法的時候也有把它列進去，後來在委員討論的時候被一些委員拿掉了，不是您啦，不過我想這一次我們可以從……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是部長你忘了，2023年4月，你們有提出修正版本送到行政院，你們有提出四個層面，包括飼主的責任、管理動物利用與虐待傷害、對於寵物產業的管理及檢查員的執法，這四個層面你都有送到行政院，因此，我們要統一規範的話，法案你們已經送進行政院，在2023年4月送進去，去年8月也陳報行政院，到底什麼時候要送進來立法院？"],["陳部長駿季：我想行政院審議完了以後，我們一定會第一時間送進來。"],["呂委員玉玲：到現在已經2年了，2023年到2024、到2025年……"],["陳部長駿季：中間好像有在做一些……"],["呂委員玉玲：已經2年了，到底什麼時候？每次問部長這件事情你都說年底、年底，年底也不了了之，過了2年啦！"],["陳部長駿季：很抱歉，因為行政院審議的時候有不同的法案在審理，我們會……"],["呂委員玉玲：那你有去了解嗎？需要你解釋的、需要修正的話，你們都可以再送啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會解釋，最重要就是說，行政院審議時，我會拜託行政院能夠優先來審議。"],["呂委員玉玲：什麼時候要送進來立法院？"],["陳部長駿季：我問了以後再跟委員回復好不好？我現在也不敢隨便講。跟委員報告，比較重要的是，因為法案在審查之後還有一些時程，在這個空窗期的時候……"],["呂委員玉玲：2年了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，在這個空窗期的時候，我們可不可以用一些指引的方式對地方政府去做傳達，避免說……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以在這邊我要跟部長再三強調，這個部分不要讓各地方政府自己去決定、地方自治去決定，我們應該統一在中央有一套規範出來，如此一來，民眾在飼養他的動物的時候，他可以教育牠或者訓練牠，或者加強管理，如果是管理不當的情形，我們要再加強嚴懲，也希望你們早日公布我們的統一規範，讓我們的動保法可以去執行。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來我們想請問的是，美國將在4月份提出對等關稅，在對等關稅上也把我們國家列入骯髒15國名單，也就是整個經濟貿易有逆差、順差這個情形發生的話……我們特別提到的就是農漁業這個部分，臺灣農漁業的進口比出口多，黃小玉的出口是在原物料，而臺灣對美國出口的加工農產品，就2024年來講，臺灣對美國農業貿易逆差將近29億美元，美國會不會對等關稅裡面加強我們的關稅？"],["陳部長駿季：在根據川普對外釋出的訊息，對等關稅完整的措施會在4月2號公布，這個期間我們政府在OTN的協助之下做了相關的盤點，對農業來講，一個比較好的地方是，對美國農產貿易，我們對他們來講是順差，接下來，這些關稅本身是一次性的還是個別性的去談……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長都要去了解。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會持續去了解、去關心，目前我們還是積極輔導我們的產業升級跟轉型，最重要的一點就是，任何後續的調整一定要維持我們產業的競爭力。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，本席之所以會在這邊提醒部長，就是因為我們擔心美國會以農產品關稅做誘因，要求我國放寬美國的豬肉跟牛肉含有萊克多巴胺成分的標準，要我們調降這個標準，甚至讓美牛高風險部位強制叩關，影響國人的健康。這一點請農業部一定要堅守，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我想以農業部來講，我們會積極輔導我們國內的豬肉供應，而且臺灣的習性是將近88%到90%左右都是用國產肉，這個部分我想我們會持續來努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：不要因為給我們農漁業關稅一些減免，或者是免徵關稅的誘因，你就犧牲國人的健康，這是很重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：請部長一定要堅守！"],["主席：謝謝呂委員、謝謝陳部長。接下來我們請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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好 我知道你不會給分啦但是外界似乎給他的分數並不高我先跟這個副秘書長說這份名單提出之後連法界都會有覺得很多的不滿跟質疑那第一個提出質疑的就是全國律師聯合會他認為是甚感遺憾 嫌認不妥你知道原因是什麼嗎為什麼律師聯合會認為是"},{"start":58.196,"end":78.277,"text":"慎感遺憾這個部分我們就不變評論了我是講事實問題你總要知道目前關於司法狀況的現在的事實狀況我不是問你評論我只是說律師聯合會為什麼認為是不妥你總看新聞有看過這個新聞吧有有有對啊他為什麼覺得不妥"},{"start":80.52,"end":102.376,"text":"權律會的觀點是認為說這是由那個檢察官就是提名的一位檢察官來當那個司法院院長對啊 這原因一啦其他最重要的是他認為提名的都是檢察官 法官跟學者獨缺律師那事實上依照過去我們確實大法官的組成來講的話這個學者 法官"},{"start":103.777,"end":118.087,"text":"檢察官 律師都是可能會被提名的大法官人選嘛 對不對所以它中間其實是在這個組成的部分它有它的橫評的部分那顯然這一次我覺得賴清德總統提名的這個大法官的名單"},{"start":119.228,"end":144.687,"text":"在第一個部分就產生一個失衡那全立會也提到歷來都有學養俱佳的律師獲得大法官提名並擔任大法官職務但這次大法官提名顯然未考量律師於司法制度之重要性及維繫自由民主憲政秩序扮演的角色說他對此甚感遺憾那這次我覺得是司法院也好或是我這邊也呼籲我們賴清德總統"},{"start":145.828,"end":173.709,"text":"要把我們這個律師界的聲音聽進去這第一個我認為他提名這一次的大法官非常嚴重的一個我們講憲法上的瑕疵就是憲政提名上的瑕疵他沒有思考到人選的橫平性那第二個我想請教一下傅秘書長你知道上一次大法官審查台灣法學會有推薦誰過來記得嗎台灣法學會有推薦大法官的人選有提名 推薦誰"},{"start":177.402,"end":194.897,"text":"這個也是事實問題 沒有問題評價 有人知道嗎都不知道啊 連推薦單位是誰都不知道 劉靜儀教授啦他就是台灣法學會推薦的 那劉靜儀教授過了沒有"},{"start":198.215,"end":213.29,"text":"這個大家都知道的大家都知道我也想從你嘴巴聽到大家的知道跟你的知道一不一樣過了沒有沒有過為什麼沒過為什麼沒過國民黨沒有投同意啦民眾黨投同意啦但是民進黨怎麼樣"},{"start":215.782,"end":232.503,"text":"你這樣投反對啊那自己提名自己否決的做法其實也讓法學界其實相當感冒所以我剛剛前面是講律師界律師界對這份名單有意見我現在是要講法學界所以讓很多次任的學界人士不願意被提名"},{"start":233.504,"end":261.317,"text":"那劉靜儀教授兩天前他在臉書上說他說這次有詢問台灣法學會啊有沒有要推薦大法官幾乎大法官在提名的時候台灣法學會經常都會推薦啦對不對 沒錯吧那結果說只有一位資深學界理監事問了一個他說這個問題很蠢也沒有得到任何回應於是呢大家一路沉默到推薦時間截止也沒有任何會員來要求推薦"},{"start":263.595,"end":277.044,"text":"你搞到法學界,台灣法學會過去經常推薦大法官他們也心寒,乾脆不推薦了你知道為什麼嗎?副院長你知道為什麼嗎?因為劉靜儀教授這個提名的過程當中就發現說他不受尊重啊"},{"start":288.216,"end":310.475,"text":"破壞大法官提名審查的公正跟權威性的是誰就是帶頭反對劉靜儀的柯建銘啊明明齁 其實我們在做大法官審查當然我非常關注大法官對於所謂的死刑是否廢除的態度嘛因為這是全民關心的我當然知道大法官的這個態度是怎麼樣這應該沒問題吧 對不對"},{"start":313.011,"end":319.507,"text":"關心大法官他對於所謂重大刑事政策的態度應該是我們在審查的時候應該要來了解的嘛 對不對"},{"start":322.683,"end":349.9,"text":"換言之其實應該是 比方說針對司法人權價值做專業審查或是針對他過去一些重大的一些不管是人權主張 行事政策主張我們來做審查可是結果我們親愛的民進黨總召柯建民他只講了一個理由反對劉靜儀你記得是什麼理由嗎只有一個理由反對劉靜儀這也是事實問題啦但不為難你 我就叫你講出口也很為難你"},{"start":351.55,"end":365.601,"text":"竟然是劉靜儀罵過民進黨 我想請問一下這個人總能回答 大法官提名的積極資格是什麼積極資格是什麼 他必須具備什麼資格法律有積極資格啊 有啊就是他的經歷上積極的那個經歷 對 資格"},{"start":377.859,"end":402.918,"text":"就是在那個相關你再熟悉一點啦 我告訴你啦我也不是叫你背法條啦但我覺得那個法律有一個瑕疵它少了一個積極資格它列了很多積極資格啊 對不對要必須擔任過什麼 擔任過什麼嘛積極資格嘛 對不對它列了一個最重要的積極資格啊這個可能趕快要修法還是修憲 不管啦不可以罵民進黨"},{"start":405.533,"end":433.841,"text":"積極資格是大法官不可以罵民進黨這就是民進黨提名大法官的積極資格趕快修法列進去我跟副民進黨坦白講真的是非常難看啊劉靜儀這一個民進黨的反對理由就一個他罵過民進黨還甚至喔我們柯建民說要祭出黨祭處分如果敢投劉靜儀要黨祭處分這是最惡劣的人事審查"},{"start":435.188,"end":461.033,"text":"所以這是為什麼今天 你看台灣法學會 講白也含辛啊律師界不滿意 法學會 教授法學會也含辛第二個賴清德是提名的一個 名單的一個嚴重問題然後接下來我跟你講 還有一個問題您在法界的履歷很完整 我看過了"},{"start":461.854,"end":485.752,"text":"在你擔任法官生涯當中,你認為法官跟檢察官的工作是一樣嗎?各自扮演的角色是什麼?一個是職職審判,一個是偵查一個負責刑事偵查,一個是審判案件兩者的內容跟管轄機關其實都有相當的差別職權也有相當的差別,沒錯吧?重心也不太一樣"},{"start":487.011,"end":513.218,"text":"可是這份大法官名單司法院正副院長提名的尤其是院長提名的是台灣高等檢察署主任檢察官蔡秋明那我想請問你有沒有印象有檢查系統背景的人出任司法院院長目前是沒有我們賴清德提名的第一個那你覺得基層法官會怎麼想你也當過法官"},{"start":515.302,"end":534.193,"text":"你覺得這樣設計是正確的嗎這個我沒有辦法替基層法官來回答非常好 我也知道你不會回答我要告訴我們副秘書長這是他第三個匣子你要去想想看今天大法官的核心任務是什麼請問副秘書長"},{"start":538.795,"end":566.791,"text":"市縣也就是把那個憲法所那個保障那個價值呢可以透過這些市縣中的保障出來保障價值很多啦民主憲政嘛人權保護嘛然後包括說機關權限的這個所謂的一個釐清嘛對不對我跟你講其實他偏重的過去為什麼今天司法院的這個院長他鮮少有所謂的檢察官背景不是瞧不起檢察官這邊這邊講"},{"start":568.607,"end":589.383,"text":"出身是因為大法官會議來自於司法院的整個設計他非常偏重於一塊叫人權保障對不對他大法官不是犯罪偵查機關啊沒錯吧不是吧司法大法官不是犯罪偵查機關嘛對不對這個總回答出來吧是對嘛"},{"start":592.02,"end":611.196,"text":"所以因此你把最重要司法院院長我不是說檢察官不好檢察官兢兢業業在前線打擊犯罪我們都很尊重啊但是放在大法官放在司法院尤其是司法院院長這個職務上你就會讓很多人confuse"},{"start":612.202,"end":621.431,"text":"就這個設計是對的嗎所以在這邊我真的是鄭重的就是給我們賴清德總統一個勸告而且司法院也可以勸勸他啦"},{"start":623.971,"end":647.025,"text":"大法官提名是何其神聖的事情這次提名的思考我先不講人選是不是大人選是不是任他到底很多重大的法的政策的主張包括廢死的主張包括對國會改革的主張這加上人事審查我們都會來關心的那叫做第二層次可抱歉這個名單從第一層次就出現三大瑕疵"},{"start":648.806,"end":661.233,"text":"所以我說實在話整個名單的問題這個賴清德總統如果真的是非常在意大法官的提名的話我真的是誠懇的建議啦趕快另外把它收回去重新提一份"},{"start":662.262,"end":690.275,"text":"讓大家至少法界安心學界安心對不對也不要弄到說今天人權保障或是說其他我們覺得說司法院院長會產生一個你的整個提名的邏輯不對的這個疑慮嘛所以這次我真的也是因為今天我們司法院代表在我也是真的拜託啦誠心的勸告跟建議賴清德總統真的是太不太不認真了啦怎麼會還不講人選四任性"},{"start":691.383,"end":697.897,"text":"你光提名人的名單的結構就一塌糊塗這個真的是太噁心了 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時5分）主席，有請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：副秘書長，上週已經提出了新的大法官名單，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：請問副秘書長，這份名單你打幾分？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有關於大法官的審查，我們尊重立法院的職權。"],["羅委員智強：我知道你不會給分，但外界給的分數似乎並不高。我先跟副秘書長說，這份名單提出之後，連法界都有很多的不滿跟質疑。第一個提出質疑的就是全國律師聯合會，認為甚感遺憾，咸認不妥，你知道原因是什麼嗎？為什麼律師聯合會認為甚感遺憾？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們就不便評論了。"],["羅委員智強：我是講事實問題，你總要知道關於目前、現在的司法事實狀況。我不是問你評論，我只是問律師聯合會為什麼認為不妥？你有看過這新聞吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有、有。"],["羅委員智強：對，他們為什麼覺得不妥？"],["王副秘書長梅英：全律會的觀點是認為提名一位檢察官來當司法院院長……"],["羅委員智強：對，這是原因之一，其他最重要的原因是他們認為提名的都是檢察官、法官跟學者，獨缺律師。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是。"],["羅委員智強：依照過去來看，確實大法官的組成學者、法官、檢察官、律師都可能是會被提名的大法官人選，對不對？所以就組成來說其實有其衡平所在，但顯然這一次賴清德總統所提名的大法官名單已經在第一個部分產生失衡。全律會也提到，歷來都有學養俱佳的律師獲得大法官提名，並擔任大法官職務。但這一次大法官提名，顯然未考量律師於司法制度之重要性及維繫自由民主憲政秩序扮演的角色，故對此甚感遺憾。這次不管是司法院或是我這邊都呼籲賴清德總統，要把律師界的聲音聽進去，這是第一個我認為他這次所提名的大法官，有非常嚴重的憲法上的瑕疵，也就是憲政提名上的瑕疵，沒有思考到人選的衡平性。","第二個，我想請教副秘書長，上一次大法官審查，台灣法學會推薦誰過來？記得嗎？台灣法學會有推薦大法官人選，是推薦誰？這個也是事實問題，沒有問你評價。有人知道嗎？有人知道嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是不是劉靜怡？"],["羅委員智強：都不知道？連推薦的是誰都不知道？劉靜怡教授，他是台灣法學會推薦的。劉靜怡教授過了沒有？過了沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個大家都知道，沒有過。"],["羅委員智強：雖然大家都知道，但我想從你嘴巴聽到大家的知道跟你的知道一不一樣。過了沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有過。"],["羅委員智強：為什麼沒過？為什麼沒過？國民黨沒有投同意，民眾黨投同意，但是民進黨怎麼樣？民進黨投反對！自己提名又自己否決的作法，其實也讓法學界相當感冒！我剛剛前面是講律師界，律師界對這份名單有意見；現在則是講法學界，這也讓很多適任的學界人士不願意被提名。劉靜怡教授兩天前在臉書上說，這次有詢問台灣法學會有沒有要推薦大法官。幾乎每次在提名大法官時，台灣法學會經常都會推薦，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：結果只有一位資深學界理監事說這個問題很蠢，也沒有得到任何回應。於是大家一路沉默到推薦時間截止，也沒有任何會員來要求推薦，搞到過去經常推薦大法官人選的台灣法學會心寒，乾脆不推薦了。你知道為什麼嗎？副秘書長，你知道為什麼嗎？因為劉靜怡教授在提名過程中就發現不受尊重，且破壞大法官提名審查的公正跟權威性的是誰？就是帶頭反對劉靜怡的柯建銘！","其實我們在做大法官審查，當然我非常關注大法官對於所謂的死刑是否廢除的態度，因為這是全民關心的，我當然要知道大法官的態度是怎麼樣，這應該沒問題吧，對不對？關心大法官對於所謂重大刑事政策的態度，應該是我們在審查的時候要來了解的嘛，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：是嘛，所以換言之，其實應該是，比方說針對司法人權價值做專業審查，或是針對他過去一些重大的，不管是人權主張、刑事政策主張，我們來做審查嘛，可是當時我們親愛的民進黨總召柯建銘，他只講了一個理由來反對劉靜怡，你記得是什麼理由嘛，只有一個理由反對劉靜怡，這也是事實問題啦，但不為難你，要叫你講出口也很為難你，竟然是劉靜怡罵過民進黨，天啊！我想請問一下副秘書長，這個你總能回答吧？大法官提名的積極資格是什麼，積極資格是什麼，必須具備什麼資格？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個法律……"],["羅委員智強：法律有積極資格啊！有啊。"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是他的經歷上……"],["羅委員智強：對啊、對啊。"],["王副秘書長梅英：積極的那個經歷。"],["羅委員智強：對，資格。"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是在那個相關……"],["羅委員智強：你可以再熟悉一點啦。我告訴你啦，我也不是叫你背法條，但我覺得那個法律有一個瑕疵，它少了一個積極資格。它列了很多積極資格，對不對？必須擔任過什麼、擔任過什麼，積極資格嘛，對不對？它漏了一個最重要的積極資格，這個可能要趕快修法還是修憲，不管啦，就是不可以罵民進黨！積極資格是大法官不可以罵民進黨，這就是民進黨提名大法官的積極資格，趕快修法列進去！我跟副秘書長坦白講，真的是非常難看啦，這次對於劉靜怡，民進黨的反對理由就一個──他罵過民進黨，甚至柯建銘說要祭出黨紀處分，如果敢投劉靜怡要黨紀處分，這是最惡劣的人事審查。所以這是為什麼今天，你看台灣法學會講白了也寒心啊，律師界不滿意，法學會的教授也寒心。這是第二個賴清德這次提名名單的嚴重問題。","然後接下來，我跟你講，還有一個問題，您在法界的履歷很完整，我看過了，在你擔任法官的生涯當中，你認為法官跟檢察官的工作是一樣的嗎？各自扮演的角色是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：一個是職司審判，一個是偵查。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，一個負責刑事偵查，一個負責審判案件嘛，兩者內容跟管轄機關其實都有相當的差別啦，對不對？職權也有相當的差別，沒錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：對不對？重心也不太一樣。可是呢，這份大法官名單，司法院正副院長提名人，尤其院長提名人是臺灣高等檢察署主任檢察官蔡秋明，那我想請問，你有沒有印象由檢察系統背景的人出任司法院院長？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前是沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛，但賴清德提名了第一個。那你覺得基層法官會怎麼想？你也當過法官，你覺得這樣設計是正確的嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個我沒有辦法替基層法官來回答。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我也知道你不會回答。我要告訴副秘書長，這是他第三個瑕疵。你要去想想看，今天大法官的核心任務是什麼？請問副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：釋憲，也就是把憲法所保障的那個價值，可以透過這些釋憲中表彰出來。"],["羅委員智強：要保障的價值很多啦，民主憲政、人權保護嘛，然後還包括機關權限所謂的一個釐清嘛，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，其實它偏重的，過去為什麼司法院的院長鮮少有所謂的檢察官背景？不是瞧不起檢察官，我這邊要特別講，是因為大法官會議，乃至於司法院的整個設計，它非常偏重一塊叫人權保障嘛，對不對？大法官不是犯罪偵查機關，沒錯吧？不是吧？大法官不是犯罪偵查機關嘛，對不對？這個總回答得出來吧，副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是啊。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，所以因此你把最重要的司法院院長，我不是說檢察官不好，檢察官兢兢業業，在前線打擊犯罪，我們都很尊重啊，但是放在大法官，放在司法院，尤其是司法院院長這個職務上，就會讓很多人confuse，覺得這個設計是對的嗎？所以在這邊我真的是鄭重的給賴清德總統一個勸告，而且司法院也可以勸勸他啦，大法官提名是何其神聖的事情，這一次提名的思考，我先不講人選適不適當，人選適不適任，他到底在很多重大法律政策上的主張，包括廢死的主張，包括對國會改革的主張，這在接下來的人事審查，我們都會來關心的，那叫做第二層次。可是抱歉，這個名單從第一層次就出現三大瑕疵欸！所以我說實在話，整個名單的問題，賴清德總統如果真的非常在意大法官提名的話，我真的是誠懇建議啦，趕快把它收回去，重新提一份，讓大家，至少法界安心，學界安心，對不對？也不要弄到說今天人權保障或是其他的，我們覺得司法院院長會產生整個提名邏輯不對的疑慮嘛。所以這次我真的，也是因為今天司法院代表在，我也是真的拜託啦，誠心的勸告跟建議賴清德總統，真的是太不認真了啦，怎麼會？還不講人選適任性，你光是被提名人名單的結構就一塌糊塗，這個真的是太兒戲了！謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","我們現在先宣告：因為會議進行到現在都沒有休息，我先做會議的程序宣告，稍後在楊委員瓊瓔詢答完畢以後，我們休息5分鐘。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea349efd642265f195a39336bc333af6bdb0320df3df7f6ba36d69935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:04:51 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大家都很關心任內最重要的任務之一 亞洲資產管理中心現在川普剛上任沒多久 當選的時候你提到川普政策的不確定性會有很大的變數川普政策的不確定性對亞洲資產管理中心會不會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":41.38,"end":65.775,"text":"當然我想這個都會有影響不過以我們現在推動的政策我們現在初步大概以鬆綁國內法令然後建構基礎的架構來講的話現在影響可能還不大但是就是說真的比如說我們要真的進入到吸引外資的階段的時候它會影響到國際上面不同市場之間的這樣一個所謂的相互影響那這個可能就會因為"},{"start":66.836,"end":85.322,"text":"畢竟資金的流動跟利率跟匯率都有很大的關係那我們先現階段在做主要是鬆綁法令建構基礎架構我覺得現在影響還是比較有限好那這個有這個中華徵信所他們這幾天有一個報告他們提到說其實台灣的這一個"},{"start":86.462,"end":103.792,"text":"我们的金控公司如果有机会合并的话然后能够扩大规模更具有竞争力他认为这样对于政府所要提倡的亚洲资产管理中心也会有帮助我想请教一下主委的看法"},{"start":104.779,"end":130.913,"text":"對於金融機構規模的擴大的論述一向都是存在著我想不管在學理上或實務上也都有支持的論據我想市場若是自由的競爭然後就是針對他們所謂我以前談過的良質的合併就是以共同追求共同利益這樣的合併的方式金管會都是持這個支持的態度"},{"start":131.954,"end":147.559,"text":"那如果說真的能夠未來台灣的金融機構金控公司更有競爭力我想這也是我們監理上一個很重要的這樣的一個方向所以我剛才講過只要是一個良質的整備對 那我意思是說對於這個亞洲資產管理中心如果說這個金金合併的話"},{"start":148.559,"end":164.878,"text":"有什麼實際上面一個幫助嗎?比如說我們從過去整個整併的經驗裡面看到整併會帶動子公司規模的擴大比如說兩家金融公司合併以後相同的子公司必然要做整併整併以後就產生規模經濟的問題還有就是未來它有規模經濟還有在"},{"start":168.522,"end":194.423,"text":"特別是在國際移動的時候它會有更有的所謂的能見度跟它的影響力我想這部分當然是一個正面當然所有的診病它背後也會帶來很多診病的成本我想剛剛委員提到就是說當我們經貨公司規模擴大以後當然在於我們促進資本的流通我想是有幫助的好 那請教一下在今年初的時候這個主委有提到就是說未來這個金融診病你有一些方向"},{"start":195.023,"end":220.094,"text":"然後也說這個第一季會提出這個相關的修正的方法那請問一下這個辦法有出來的嗎方向是怎麼樣我們現在這個辦法自從上次有說明以後我們還是按照既定的進程你說第一季嘛因為現在是三月底了我想說這個金融整併的這一個辦法有修正了嗎我們現在已經在做內部的這個整理中應該很快的就會對外公告"},{"start":221.034,"end":237.811,"text":"那方向呢?方向的話,其實我覺得第一個啦,還是一樣,我們會從記取過去,我剛剛那個業務報告也提到,我們會記取過去的這些整變的經驗,我們會改變現有的做法。比如說,我具體講好了,這個你之前也提過,這個公開收購的門檻,現在是10%是否會提高?"},{"start":243.195,"end":258.964,"text":"我們應該對金控跟金控之間整變的門檻會提高那大概提高的比率大概是到多少這個我們等到最後定案再跟大家報告這肯定要提高那你有提到就是說金控收購金控跟收購獨立機構門檻會分流就對了對 未來也是這個方向"},{"start":264.847,"end":288.498,"text":"然後呢這個雙槓桿的這個比例雙槓桿比例的話假設我們會做一個配套措施原則雙槓桿比例就是雙重槓桿比例是控制風險但是如果說因為診病的話他有一個明確的理由他必須要去舉債籌資的部分那這部分我們會給予一個寬限期間做改善這個這部分我們會列入配套措施就是會比較彈性嗎"},{"start":289.398,"end":313.924,"text":"對 就是會有一段期間比如說你可能因為這段時間可能來不及現增你可能未來還是要做現金增資但是你現在願意先用舉債的方式也在合理的範圍會突破那個125%的話那我們也可以讓你有一個明確的計畫執行而且具體承諾的情況之下我們可以有一些彈性在一段的時間裡面嗎對對對好 那這個非合意的併購必須以現金為主"},{"start":315.524,"end":335.437,"text":"我想其實我講過很多次其實我們在法律上其實沒有所謂的這個差別就是說我們應該講說有啊你們有說合意跟非合意方式會不一樣我們的方向應該是認為說其實你既然是不是採用合意的併購雙方要有明確的區分因為不能夠方法不同因為它背後的"},{"start":336.737,"end":356.784,"text":"這個公司民主程序是不一樣的那不一樣卻有一個比較簡便的方法而且會導致未來市場上的不安定所以原則上剛剛委員提的我們曾經在過去對外也揭示過我們會盡量比如說會用採用以現金為原則就是非合意的併購是以現金為原則就對了是的好"},{"start":357.444,"end":385.919,"text":"這其實之前有講過我只是在確認一下而已然後請問一下現在就是說亞洲資產管理中心要管理有錢人的資產那其實去年也跟主委有提到說日本他們因為有NISA然後可以小額投資在一定的金額裡面免稅那上次也問過您的台版的TISA那您說這個也有可能在這個今年就會開始實施那請問一下台版的TISA"},{"start":386.819,"end":407.315,"text":"現在的情況是怎麼樣?台版的TESA我們分兩大塊第一階段的部分我們按照步驟進行六月上路應該沒有問題六月上路那內容會不會更重要啊?內容的部分就是跟薩斯跟大家報告大家可能關注的是另外第二階段的部分有沒有租稅優惠這部分我們持續在跟我們財政部在溝通當中"},{"start":409.229,"end":433.694,"text":"那跟我去年問你也是一樣啊不是當然啦每一年每一年都要有個進度啊我去年十月問你也是這樣子講啊那今年現在三月你又問你你還是這樣子講因為這個如果說是我們今晚會能決定我就決定啦對不對當然是這部分所以我看你也是找了這個莊部長也找了好幾次嘛不光只是這個TISA還有我等一下要問的這個雅灣專區也是一樣啊這個稅賦的事情啊"},{"start":438.155,"end":465.43,"text":"我也希望說我們能夠盡快跟財政部能夠達成協議啦那這部分我們也在努力中那所以你六月份出來的TESA是長什麼樣?我上次跟各位報告TESA部分我們分成因為我們是可容納性的TESA的帳戶第一個帳戶我剛剛講過就是說我們先透過業者的讓利的部分他提供一些比如說T級別的這樣的一個投資可以先從免手續費免這些作業成本是先鼓勵民眾來投"},{"start":466.471,"end":491,"text":"投入由吉寶來幫忙開設這個國人可以來申請這樣那個帳戶管理的方式再來就是上次財政部有提到說他可以給予比如說我們的鼓勵收入的部分呢可以做所謂的8.5萬的抵稅權這部分我們也有把它建立起來那再來的第三部分大家最關切的就是說未來有沒有一些租賄的優惠我們在幾個方案之中在跟我們的財政部在溝通"},{"start":491.42,"end":502.961,"text":"那大概哪時候會比較具體我希望越快越好我去年十月也是問你你也是這樣子講啊今年三月這樣講也希望委員能夠多多的支持跟協助啊"},{"start":503.922,"end":521.673,"text":"至少這個我是站在你這一邊的啊是 謝謝好 那所以六月份會至少這個有一個版本的TESA版會出來就對了就說架構已經有了那我們就說如果說我們整個吉寶在這部分它扮演一個非常重要的角色"},{"start":522.213,"end":542.172,"text":"他提供這個服務這也是一個他整個在系統很多東西也幫我們做了很多的努力這部分也是一個要謝謝我們吉寶公司來做這些事情但是我覺得大家關注的時候未來怎麼樣能夠普惠全面的這樣一個租稅的這樣的方案我們會來持續來溝通啦好 我再問你"},{"start":543.933,"end":568.885,"text":"亞洲資產管理中心設了高雄的專區哪時候會開始現在是這樣我們的所有的事辦方案經過跟高雄市政府還有跟金融機構的溝通跟商業的溝通完畢我們大概已經溝通完畢了我們現在的那個整個的事辦方案 完整的事辦方案目前有幾家銀行簽了這個投資意向書16家後續還有其他的比如說我們的投信 證券"},{"start":570.746,"end":596.611,"text":"後續還會持續的再慢慢的加入那我剛剛問你就是說哪時候會開始正式的營運如果我們現在順利的話我們的規定應該是會在月底跟月初的時候公告公告的話接下來4月應該就可以開放申請那申請的時候如果他開始籌備設立的話我們現在預計的規劃最快應該是7月左右就可以應該可以進駐了好"},{"start":598.391,"end":618.688,"text":"那一樣 其實剛剛嘉賓委員問的是比較保守跟含蓄就是問你說那到底稅賦可能性怎麼樣你有跟專部長有提過說包含OIU OBU OSU的稅率嗎OIU OBU現在我們本來就是在國際金融業務條例就有了就有這些免業者的營業所得稅這些問題"},{"start":620.209,"end":642.769,"text":"還有對於免扣繳的那部分大概都有了我們現在上次OIU的部分因為今年2月5號到期我們也爭取在送進力法院把它延長10年我想這是一個OS優勢到127年但是我們的OBU是沒有期限所以這部分我們大概就是按照這樣來處理那稅賦這方面有相關的優惠嗎?不然它的吸引力在哪裡?"},{"start":643.83,"end":662.895,"text":"它不是只有地理的條件嘛我就說在稅務這方面的話有什麼比較特別的可以吸引他們過來OBU的話基本上你在那邊從事OBU業務我們OBU條例本來就對這個從事這樣的金融機構它就有一定的免稅有這個誘因那對於外國人的部分所以沒有特別再多一點"},{"start":663.975,"end":691.075,"text":"說服上面的一個誘因這個就是我們要必須要再跟國際對標我們看看比如說我們的競爭者競爭商品這我們還是要跟那你有跟莊部長有討論過這些東西嗎我們都有討論我們都有我們也敗會過那莊部長的態度是怎麼樣他當然是站在政府議題的角色他有他部會的立場我們都要尊重但是我們會盡量溝通把一些相關的影響對其他的負面因素降到最低然後這部分也要跟他討論未來可行的方案"},{"start":692.275,"end":718.669,"text":"7月如果要正式營運我是希望說稅負這方面的誘因還是要加強因為我看到有很多業者也有在講就是說那如果沒有稅負上面的一個誘因的話只是地理上面比較方便那其實因為台灣是一日生活圈沒有特別的一個誘因所以他們一定要到高雄其實跟委員報告一下我有仔細看一下銀行局他們做的這些的放寬加總起來放寬的項目應該超過20項以上那你有滿意嗎"},{"start":719.829,"end":742.934,"text":"我覺得我們的同仁很盡力過去在整個法規鬆綁的規模跟幅度是過去也從來沒有出現過的我想在這部分我們要促進這樣一個事情的發展我覺得我們一定是在全力的來進行這件事情好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝李坤臣委員接著我們請林思明委員"},{"start":751.087,"end":753.234,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請彭主委彭主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時52分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請彭主委？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委，大家都很關心在你任內最重要的一個任務，就是亞洲資產管理中心，請問一下，因為現在川普剛上任沒多久，記得在他當選的時候你有提到川普政策的不確定性會有很大的變數，那川普政策的不確定性對於你的這個亞洲資產管理中心會不會有什麼樣的影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我想都會有影響，不過以我們現在所推動的政策初步是先鬆綁國內法令然後建構基礎的架構來講的話，現在影響可能還不大。但是在我們要真正進入到吸引外資階段的時候，因為國際上面不同市場之間有一個所謂的相互影響，那這個可能就會有影響，畢竟資金的流動跟利率、匯率都會有很大的關係，那我們現階段在做的主要是鬆綁法令、建構基礎架構，所以我覺得現在的影響還是比較有限。"],["李委員坤城：好，中華徵信所在這幾天有一個報告，他們提到其實臺灣的金控公司如果有機會合併，然後能夠擴大規模、更具有競爭力，他們認為這樣對於政府所要提倡的亞洲資產管理中心也會有幫助，我想請教一下主委的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於金融機構規模擴大的論述一向都是存在著，不管在學理上或實務上，也都有支持的論據，我想市場若是自由的競爭，然後針對他們有所謂良質的合併，就是我以前談過的，以共同追求共同利益這樣的合併方式，金管會都是持支持的態度，如果未來能讓臺灣的金融機構、金控公司更有競爭力，我想這也是我們在監理上一個很重要的方向。所以我剛才講過，只要是一個良質的整併……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，對於你的亞洲資產管理中心，如果是金金合併的話，有什麼實際上面的幫助嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，比如說我們從過去整個整併的經驗裡面看到，整併會帶動子公司規模的擴大，比如說，兩家金控公司合併以後，相同的子公司必然要做整併，整併以後就會產生規模經濟的問題，還有，特別是在國際移動的時候，它會更有所謂的能見度跟它的影響力，我想這部分是一個正面的，當然所有的整併背後也會帶來很多整併的成本。剛剛委員提到，當我們金控公司規模擴大以後，當然在促進我們資本的流通上，我想是有幫助的。"],["李委員坤城：好。請教一下，今年初的時候主委有提到，針對未來的金融整併，你有一些方向，然後也說第一季會提出相關的修正方法，請問一下這個辦法出來了嗎？方向是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個辦法自從上次有說明以後，我們還是按照既定的進程在走。"],["李委員坤城：因為你說第一季，而現在是3月底了，所以金融整併的辦法有修正了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經在做內部的整理中，應該很快就會對外公告。"],["李委員坤城：方向呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：方向的話，第一個，還是一樣，剛剛的業務報告也提到，會記取過去這些整併的經驗，我們會改變現有的作法，比如說……"],["李委員坤城：我具體講好了，這個你之前也提過，就是公開收購的門檻，現在是10%，請問是否會提高？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對金控跟金控之間整併的門檻我們應該會提高。"],["李委員坤城：提高的比率大概是到多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：等到最後定案我們再跟大家報告，這肯定要提高的。"],["李委員坤城：好，你有提到，金控收購金控跟收購獨立機構的門檻會分流就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，未來也是這個方向。"],["李委員坤城：然後雙槓比的比例呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：雙槓桿比例的話，假設我們做了一個配套措施，雙槓桿比例原則上就是控制風險，如果因為整併它有一個明確的理由必須要去舉債、籌資等等，這部分我們會給予一個寬限期間來做改善，換言之，這部分我們會列入配套措施。"],["李委員坤城：就是會比較有彈性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是會有一段期間，比如說，你可能因為這段時間來不及現增，未來可能還是要做現金增資，但是你現在願意先用舉債的方式，也在合理的範圍內，然後會突破那個125%的話，我們也可以讓你在有一個明確計畫的情況下來執行，而且你也有一些具體的承諾，這樣我們就可以有一些彈性。"],["李委員坤城：在一段的時間裡面嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對！對！對！"],["李委員坤城：好，非合意的併購必須以現金為主，這確定嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我講過很多次，我們在法律上其實沒有所謂的差別，我們剛才說……"],["李委員坤城：有啊！你們有說合意跟非合意，方式會不一樣啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的方向應該是，既然你不是採用合意的併購，雙方要有明確的區分，不能夠因為方法的不同，因為它背後的公司民主程序是不一樣的，不一樣卻有個比較簡便的方法，而且會導致未來市場上的不安定，所以原則上剛才委員提的，我們過去也曾經對外揭示過，我們會儘量採用以現金為原則。"],["李委員坤城：所以非合意的併購是以現金為原則就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員坤城：好，其實之前有講過，我只是再確認一下而已。","然後再請問一下，現在亞洲資產管理中心要管理有錢人的資產，其實去年也有跟主委提到日本，他們因為有NISA可以小額投資，且在一定的金額裡面是免稅，上次也問過您臺版的TISA，您說也有可能在今年就會開始實施，請問一下臺版的TISA現在的情況是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：臺版的TISA我們是分兩大塊，第一階段的部分，我們是按照步驟進行，6月上路應該沒有問題。"],["李委員坤城：6月上路，好，那內容物更重要啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：內容的部分，上一次有跟大家報告，我們大家可能關注的是另外第二階段的部分，即有沒有租稅優惠，這部分我們持續在跟財政部溝通當中。"],["李委員坤城：跟我去年問你的也還是一樣啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然……"],["李委員坤城：不是當然啊！每一年都要有個進度啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：有進度，但是……"],["李委員坤城：我去年10月問你，你也是這樣子講；今年3月、現在又問你，你還是這樣子講！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為如果是我們金管會能決定，我就決定了，對不對？"],["李委員坤城：當然啊！我看你也是找了莊部長好幾次，不光是TISA，還有我等一下要問的亞灣專區也是一樣，就是關於稅負的事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我也希望我們能夠儘快跟財政部達成協議，這部分我們也在努力中。"],["李委員坤城：不是啊！所以你6月份提出來的TISA是長什麼樣呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我上次跟各位報告過，TISA的部分，因為我們是可容納性的TISA帳戶，第一個，帳戶的部分我剛才講過，我們先透過業者的讓利，提供一些比如說T級別這樣的投資，可以先從免手續費、免一些作業成本等方式，先鼓勵民眾來投入，由集保來幫忙開設，國人可以來申請以這樣的帳戶管理方式進行。再來上次財政部有提到，它可以給予比如說我們的股利收入的部分，可以做所謂8.5萬的抵稅權，這部分我們也有把它建立起來。再來第三部分，大家最關切的就是未來有沒有一些租稅的優惠，我們在幾個方案之中跟財政部在溝通。"],["李委員坤城：大概哪個時候會比較有具體的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們希望越快越好，當然我也希望……"],["李委員坤城：我去年10月也有問你，你也是這樣子講啊，今年3月也是這樣講。"],["彭主任委員金隆：也希望委員能夠多多的支持跟協助。"],["李委員坤城：至少這個我是站在你這一邊的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以6月份，至少會有一個TISA版本出來就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：架構已經有了，我們整個集保在這部分扮演一個非常重要的角色，它提供這個服務，這整個在系統，很多東西也幫我們做了很多的努力，這部分也是要謝謝我們集保公司來做這些事情。但是我覺得大家關注的是說，未來怎麼樣能夠普惠、全面的一個租稅的方案，我們會來持續來溝通啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，我再問你，亞洲資產管理中心設了高雄的專區嘛，哪時候會開始？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是這樣，我們所有的試辦方案，經過跟高雄市政府還有金融機構、三業大概已經溝通完畢了，我們現在完整的試辦方案，應該……"],["李委員坤城：目前有幾家銀行簽了投資意向書？"],["彭主任委員金隆：16家。"],["李委員坤城：16家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：後續還有其他的，比如說我們的投信、證券，後續還會持續慢慢的加入。"],["李委員坤城：好，我剛剛問你，哪時候會開始正式的營運？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果我們順利的話，我們的規定應該會在月底跟月初的時候公告，公告後接下來4月應該就可以開放申請，申請的時候，如果它開始籌備設立，依我們現在的預計、規劃，最快應該是7月左右就可以進駐了。"],["李委員坤城：好，那一樣，其實剛才佳濱委員問的是比較保守跟含蓄啦，問你到底稅負可能性怎麼樣？你有跟莊部長提過包含OIU、OBU、OSU的稅率嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：OIU、OBU，現在我們本來在國際金融業務條例就有了，就有這些減免業者的營業、所得稅這些問題，還有對於免扣繳的部分，大概都有了，事實上OIU的部分，因為今年2月5號到期，我們也爭取再送進立法院，把它延長10年，我想這是一個。另外OSU是到127年，但是我們的OBU是沒有期限，所以這部分我們大概就是按照這樣來處理。"],["李委員坤城：對，稅負這方面有相關的優惠嗎？不然它的吸引力在哪裡？它不是只有地理的條件嘛，我說就稅負這方面的話，有什麼比較特別的，可以吸引他們過來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：OBU的話，基本上，如果你在那邊從事OBU業務，我們OBU條例本來就對從事這樣的金融機構，它就有一定的免稅，有這個誘因。對於外國人的部分它……"],["李委員坤城：所以沒有特別再多一點稅負上面的誘因？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個就是我們必須要再跟國際對標，我們看看比如我們的競爭者、競爭商品，這還是要跟……"],["李委員坤城：那你有跟莊部長討論過這些東西嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們都有討論，我們也拜會過……"],["李委員坤城：莊部長的態度是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：站在政府一體的角色，他有他部會的立場，我們都要尊重，但是我們會儘量溝通，把一些相關的影響，對其他的負面因素降到最低，然後這部分也要跟他討論未來可行的方案。"],["李委員坤城：7月如果要正式營運，我是希望稅負這方面的誘因還是要加強，因為我看到很多業者也在講，如果沒有稅負上面一個誘因的話，只是地理上面比較方便，其實臺灣是一日生活圈，沒有特別的誘因說他們一定要到高雄。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，其實我有仔細看一下銀行局他們做的這些放寬，加總起來放寬的項目應該超過二十項以上。"],["李委員坤城：那你有滿意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我們的同仁很盡力，跟過去整個法規鬆綁的規模跟幅度比，是過去從來沒有出現過的，我想在這部分，我們要促進這樣一個事情的發展，我覺得我們一定是全力的來進行這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝，謝謝主席、謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝李坤城委員。","接著我們請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34e305639303642d42280a1269ac70bedc320df3df7f6ba36d31f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:06:43 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我想要請我們陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":15.902,"end":31.566,"text":"部長我想請教一下就是現在目前美國正在對各國進行關稅的談判那我想要請問因為2024年我們外銷美國的農產品總額只有8.87億但是美國農產品輸入我國的總額是37.98億美元"},{"start":43.709,"end":67.927,"text":"那這個逆差是美國輸我們的多那還多了四倍之多所以如果美國認為就是這個豬肉進口的稅率目前我們訂定的是12.5%他們認為太高的話那要我們調降那有沒有因應的手段"},{"start":68.903,"end":95.417,"text":"我跟委員報告就是川普政府的對等關稅的一個政策他現在目前並沒有實際公布哪一些他的真正的措施跟作為但是我們農業部已經持續在關心那農業部農業的產品的部分就像委員所說的對美國來講是粗糙他並不是一個逆差貿易逆差是用全台灣的產品所以對農業部來講比較好的一個"},{"start":98.118,"end":113.34,"text":"一個就是對美國來講是順差那第二個部分就是我們現在要處理的就是美國的平均關稅是5.0台灣的農產品平均關稅是16.6但是這16.6本身如果你用貿易的平均"},{"start":114.561,"end":129.095,"text":"就是貿易加權平均的話大概是9%左右啦所以我想我們會持續去關切目前川普釋出的這些訊息而且我們也會配合政府OTN一致性的這些跟美國去做一個有效的溝通"},{"start":130.265,"end":155.561,"text":"但是美國貿易代表所他發表的年度貿易障礙報告裡面我們台灣的農產品貿易品項有稻米美牛美豬等就是常被他們認為他們有貿易障礙的點名我們應該廢除美牛禁令等非關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":157.302,"end":171.696,"text":"所以未來如果關稅的清單上除了關稅以外還要我們排除美牛禁令的這樣子的非關稅的貿易障礙的時候你們因應的手段是什麼"},{"start":173.212,"end":186.316,"text":"我跟委員報告就是基本上我們在對美本身的一個主要的態度就是相對的在個別品項裡面在去談的時候我認為以豬肉來講"},{"start":188.977,"end":217.156,"text":"其實豬肉將近88%到90%是國產豬肉因為國內的消費習性都是以溫體豬為主特別是溫體豬大概63%是進到我們的傳統市場所以應該對我們國內的豬肉是要有信心的然後10%左右它是由其他國家進口那其他國家裡面美國進來的比例我記得非常低大概只有2到3左右而已所以這個部分我想我們會持續關切它的動向"},{"start":218.217,"end":242.465,"text":"我們會不會有手段我們有沒有辦法拿出手段來有沒有辦法拿出政策來以農業部來講我們一定會持續去加強我們的國內的豬產業的升級我們過去四年投入了將近100億到128億左右因為有些是移動性的跨年度的所以我們的豬本身的生產效率也提高了所以本身的競爭力是逐漸的浮現"},{"start":243.565,"end":268.448,"text":"那相對的如果美國的進口的時候他是在那個10%裡面不同的國家在搶那個單子所以我們會持續的關切那如果他要求我們呢要求我們排除相關的障礙呢例如有可能是希望我們在學校的那個校園的餐點裡面不得禁用相關的食品"},{"start":270.301,"end":278.986,"text":"你問到這個問題就不是農業部可以回答的不過以農業部來講我們一定從產業端去提供一個優質的一個產品為目標"},{"start":283.148,"end":308.882,"text":"如果啦 如果即便如此那美國對於台灣我們重點出口的對美輸出的農產品的品項例如蝴蝶蘭 吳郭魚 虱目魚 毛豆等他如果再進口關稅採取差別稅率那會不會影響到台灣農產品進口到美國的競爭力那未來我們政府怎麼樣協助農民做營運"},{"start":311.544,"end":340.183,"text":"我跟委員報告像蝴蝶蘭花它是零關稅那如果關稅它提高因為對等關稅就是它要求我們降低或是它提高但是它提高其實對它的國內是沒有用的那我們在這個方面的因應其實蝴蝶蘭是一個接力生產它不是直接把花送到美國去賣所以它接力生產的過程中我們會透過這些接力生產的不同階段的種苗去做一個有效的調度第二個就是"},{"start":341.404,"end":367.447,"text":"川普政府不只是對台灣對等關稅的一個處理他對其他的競爭對手國我們對美國的蝴蝶蘭最大的競爭對手國是荷蘭所以荷蘭如果同樣的去調高關稅的時候那其實大家在同等的關稅之下台灣還是有競爭力的所以要看他會不會對荷蘭調高對對其他的國家所以我們會持續去關切川普政府的一個對等關稅的一個整個的處理情形"},{"start":368.978,"end":394.438,"text":"還有我們在那個調整台電調整費率的時候有沒有他有可能就已經2024年他調整費率說他要取消對於社福學校農業等的優惠電價那由該事業主管機關編列預算動長電價那這個部分農業部有沒有辦法爭取台電不要調整農業用電的費率"},{"start":397.2,"end":413.502,"text":"我跟委員報告在去年台電調降的時候早期是台電那邊去處理去吸收嘛那現在從去年開始就是由各主管機關就農業部他調降了以後我們就配合他的調降我們對農民的用電"},{"start":414.924,"end":423.775,"text":"的一個輔導跟協助政策是不變的所以當他上市調降了以後我們編列的24.26億本來是25點多億後來因為三減的關係24.26億那有一部分是做他的一個"},{"start":431.269,"end":457.098,"text":"那個用電的優惠包括他的基本用電離封尖峰的用電的優惠那另外一個部分是處理他的那個電費上漲的價差補貼這個我們都會去處理如果這一次的電費有所調整的話我想我們政策不變我們還是會積極的去向政府還是從就是變預算補貼而不是你不會去要求台電要對於農業的用電費率就是不要予以動長嗎"},{"start":458.499,"end":470.052,"text":"我想以農業部的立場就是我們的目標就是希望這個電費不會造成農民的一個增加負擔所以農業部一定會盡可能的去尋找財源來協助農民"},{"start":472.486,"end":500.656,"text":"尤其是當我們有可能面臨到就是美國的對於我們的相關的稅率有可能增加的時候那如果我們又在就是電費的方面這樣就是農業電費的話我覺得對於農民的整體的衝擊可能太大那未來農業部也要進一步儘快因應喔好不好我想非常謝謝委員的關心因為委員也一直非常關心農業那這個部分我想我們跟委員的態度是一樣的我們一定用盡全力來協助我們的產業的發展"},{"start":501.789,"end":501.931,"text":"好 謝謝好 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各位有請部長好 請部長 陳部長好 部長好委員長非常謝謝 辛苦了這個我們上次在針對野生動物保育法我們已經修正了 修正但是還有一個法這個跟原住民族基本法19條有關係的原住民族基本法第19條"},{"start":42.636,"end":64.73,"text":"這個第三款第二款採集野生植物這個部分那這個是原住民族基本法所規定的這個基於傳統文化基於跟這個自用為限那我們原住民族第七有它的定義這個都已經核定了"},{"start":66.36,"end":93.433,"text":"好我们看森林法第15条现行的条文森林位于原住民族传统领域土地原住民族传统领域土地这个原住民族基本法第19条是原住民得在原住民族地区原住民族地区所以这个第15条必须第一个要修正为"},{"start":94.864,"end":107.61,"text":"原住民族傳統利益要修正為原住民族第七第二個要修正的就是要增加自用自用非營利的自用所以這個部分"},{"start":109.177,"end":128.268,"text":"特別跟部長還有局長署長也都知道了這個之前我都是透過協調透過解釋都解釋都已經用了那現在就是法要修了這個原住民族基本法今年正好已經實施20年了"},{"start":129.329,"end":138.83,"text":"20年了所以本席有提案了這個委員會有安排審查的時候這個就請農業部能夠支持好不好"},{"start":141.329,"end":163.986,"text":"謝謝委員 我跟委員報告就是原住民地區如果說各縣市有劃出來的時候我們一定會配合去修正我們是現在是用原住民傳統領域嘛那相對的就是說各縣市如果沒有劃出來的時候那變成說你法如果只寫原住民地區的時候那認定就有困難叫那個我來說明第一個"},{"start":165.325,"end":194.646,"text":"原住民族第七都已經經過行政院核定了好那核定的就沒問題了第一個行政院都核定了是這第一個第二個現在的試用已經用原住民族第七了是這是透過我去協調之後當時的農委會跟延民會這樣的話我想我們可以配合修法對所以這個部份我們可以配合來修法經濟委會有安排的時候請農業部能夠支持好"},{"start":195.714,"end":213.892,"text":"接下來就跟林業署沒有關係了那個農業保險法109年5月27號公布施行110年1月1號施行這個是一個非常好而且重要的一個法例"},{"start":215.083,"end":232.478,"text":"那《農業保險法》第十條也規定主管機關得對藥保人保保農業保險之保險費予以補助也就是這個農業部予以補助這補助的比例本法施行後五年內"},{"start":233.539,"end":256.889,"text":"以75%為上限私行貨第6年起以60%為上限所以會降低降低了15%所以現在114年第6年就是明年所以這個部分我們要積極的第一個要積極的去"},{"start":259.042,"end":272.551,"text":"推動先導讓農民能夠知道這個部分因為現在比例還是有限了113年度土保"},{"start":274.701,"end":299.89,"text":"26.9萬件所以這個面積只有23.4萬公頃所以還有很大的空間所以這個部分然後第一個要積極的加先導第二個也必須思考一下子從百分之補助75%變成60%所以這個部分是一個很大的一個落差部長是不是"},{"start":301.434,"end":322.086,"text":"要去怎麼樣去因應好 謝謝委員的關心那第一件事情就是農業保險現在目前有28個品項44張保單那我在內部討論的時候我要求是我們農業保險的要重視那個品質而不是衝那個數量所以我們現在目前在重新檢討我們的保單的內涵"},{"start":323.507,"end":351.524,"text":"也是因為保證的內涵調整以後希望能夠讓更多的農民了解以後去加入啦所以這個部分我想我們會積極來做第二點就是我們現在的保費的補助大概都是雖然說法規有定上限是75%但是我們現在的保費的補助大概是50%並沒有超過50%除了那個政策型保險以外像租制保險那個部分有提高到100%以外那其他的部分我們都是用50%"},{"start":354.192,"end":375.384,"text":"因為我們台灣天然災害各式各樣所以這個部分是需要去加強這是第一個第二個也請農業部這邊原住民到底具有原住民身份的投保的也統計一下"},{"start":378.087,"end":386.483,"text":"我想我們會另外拉出來就是有關於原住民投保的那上次我想委員一直關心那我們也會持續的在原住民部落那邊去宣導"},{"start":387.93,"end":412.911,"text":"好這個部分另外就是說這個今年開始推動這個糧食產業前面升級計畫開放繳售供糧者得投保水稻收入加長期保險保障所有稻農因天然災害或其他事故產生產量的損失這個部分要去積極的去推動好不好"},{"start":413.972,"end":431.421,"text":"報告就是因為那個水稻的部分的保險我們的截止日到三月底啦那三月底我們現在看起來投保率有提高啦那到三月底的時候我想得到一個比較正確的數字之後再提供給委員的參考好 謝謝那另外就是說上次"},{"start":432.577,"end":456.332,"text":"也特別有關這個原住民參加農民退休儲金這個統計的數字這個是112年的後來有請你們去跟人民會然後你們也要請那個農會農會來去推動所以這個部分也把新的數字提供出來好不好"},{"start":458.451,"end":474.468,"text":"委員報告在113年8月那個時候委員在關心的時候大概是801人那到目前我經過我們直接到部落去宣導以後現在已經有增加大概60人左右我想我們持續會努力對你把那個數字提供好然後繼續努力好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時59分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：非常謝謝，辛苦了。我們上次針對野生動物保育法，已經修正了，但是還有一個法和原住民族基本法第十九條有關係，原住民族基本法第十九條第二款的「採集野生植物」這個部分，這是原住民族基本法所規定的，基於傳統文化、祭儀與自用為限，我們原住民族地區有它的定義，這都已經核定了。","我們看森林法第十五條現行條文：森林位於原住民族傳統領域土地；而原住民族基本法第十九條是原住民得在原住民族地區。所以第十五條，第一個必項將「原住民族傳統領域」要修正為「原住民族地區」；第二個要修正的，就是要增加「自用」，非營利的自用。這個部分特別跟部長說，署長也都知道，之前我都是透過協調、透過解釋，解釋都已經用了，現在就是法要修。原住民族基本法今年正好已經實施20年了，所以本席有提案，委員會有安排審查的時候，就請農業部能夠支持，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，我跟委員報告，原住民族地區如果各縣市有劃出來的時候，我們一定會配合去修正，我們現在是用「原住民族傳統領域」；相對來說，各縣市如果沒有劃出來的時候，變成法如果只寫「原住民族地區」的話，那認定就有困難。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個我來說明，第一個，原住民族地區都已經經過行政院核定了。"],["陳部長駿季：核定了就沒問題了。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好。另外，今年開始推動糧食產業全面升級計畫，開放繳售公糧者得投保水稻收入加強型保險，保障所有稻農因天然災害或其他事故致產量減損之損失，這個部分要積極去推動，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，水稻部分的保險截止日是3月底，現在看起來投保率有提高，到3月底的時候，我想在得到一個比較正確的數字之後再提供給委員參考。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。另外，有關原住民參加農民退休儲金的統計數字，這個是112年的，後來有請你們去跟原民會討論，你們也要請農會推動，所以這個部分也把新的數字提供出來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，在113年8月委員在關心的時候大概是801人，到目前經過我們直接到部落去宣導以後，現在已經增加大概60人左右，我們會持續努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，你把那個數字提供給我，然後繼續努力。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我想會議詢問一下就是因為剛剛有一點我剛剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突因為主要就是說我想要確認一下我們委員會那委員在質詢的時間內如果問的問題跟本日的議程不一樣那到底可以還是不可以因為之前吳世耀委員他其實曾經就委員在"},{"start":26.798,"end":47.632,"text":"他的時間內然後詢問官員跟今日的議程不一樣的題目他當時一直抗議那因為今天他問的東西也跟今日的議程完全不一樣所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分我想說做一個確認那我不知道主席這部分主席有什麼想法"},{"start":48.627,"end":70.892,"text":"我想依照過去不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨的委員在主持私委會的相關會議的時候其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言通常不會去干預委員在質詢的時間裡面的任何的發言內容"},{"start":71.462,"end":96.453,"text":"好 謝謝 因為剛剛喔因為剛剛我其實我是公正的在主持會議那我認為這個是一個會議的這個怎麼進行的問題這其實跟所謂的政治鬥那個惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性我只是要確認一下而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員而不是特定委員可以 特定委員不行所以我想我剛剛指這個那我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會"},{"start":98.494,"end":123.409,"text":"這麼大發脾氣然後連那個髒話都罵出來那我也在這邊補充一下就是說罵人家垃圾在實務的判決是構成公然無路我想說這可能跟其他委員提醒一下不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情罵人垃圾其實是構成公然無路尤其在國會殿堂裡面身為一個國家的中央級的民意代表在那邊大吼大叫拍桌子罵髒話其實"},{"start":125.664,"end":145.114,"text":"這個作為就是讓人家去取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方那當然當然社會本來對國會議員的期待這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦但是我還是希望說我至少我會這樣要求我自己我就是在國會開會的時候委員會開會的時候其實"},{"start":148.755,"end":168.095,"text":"除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外也要懂得控制情緒尊重別人更不可以說在那邊還罵別人在法律上面實務上面已經判決非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然污辱的事情那如果說可以隨隨便便就這樣的話那台灣"},{"start":169.396,"end":176.701,"text":"國會其實會讓世界看笑話這我想說這是我剛剛的會議詢問那我就確認一下在我們的詢問的時間內其實我們就是尊重委員的發言好 謝謝我想就是剛剛這個莊瑞雄委員他說他的不當發言其實這個讓人家看笑話這個整個國民黨對不起我剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員對不起我剛剛說錯了剛剛是審發會委員"},{"start":196.294,"end":216.384,"text":"他的不當發言是讓這個社會在看笑話立法委員作為社會的一個表率我覺得應該是在任何的場合裡面都要謹慎發言不可以有任何的暴力或是辱罵的這樣的一個行為那麼像我們昨天在立法院的院會裡面也是看到這柯建民總召"},{"start":217.365,"end":234.167,"text":"這個暴力這個拿棍子去敲桌子然後甚至還波及到還傷害到了這個徐曉新委員其實這些都是非常不當的言行那我們希望我們未來在司法委會的會議的場合裡面呢都能夠大家能夠尊重"},{"start":235.288,"end":258.437,"text":"是 我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告就像民進黨最喜歡說最近對於那個中配那個雅雅案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣言論免責權也不是毫無限制你不能動不動對人家罵髒話像剛罵我垃圾我是覺得我在那邊說我不會去提告啦因為"},{"start":259.895,"end":275.381,"text":"因為你自己是不是個垃圾自己心裡很清楚那你罵別人垃圾到底誰是垃圾我想說就算了我就我不會去提告好謝謝好那我們麻煩司法院法務部以及刑事局主委好是謝謝"},{"start":284.605,"end":295.82,"text":"好 謝謝三位我想說在座我以前的長官還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位"},{"start":298.021,"end":324.236,"text":"那謝謝我先請教一個問題我想說我們今天討論的主題是對於這個草案就是有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿那這個需要得到檢察官同意讓檢察官來保留和發許可書但是呢我看到一個問題就是我們實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對這個被告進行採尿的這個動作像毒販或是像"},{"start":324.756,"end":340.707,"text":"甚至其他的刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為那他在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據我想三位都是食物界所以非常的能夠理解但是呢這次司法院跟"},{"start":341.488,"end":363.443,"text":"行政院的版本最大的不同就是檢察官許可書就是檢察官保留的這個檢察官許可書要就是說另外要不要送交執行機關還有那個受採尿人有沒有需要送達我想先請教一下司法院為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人"},{"start":366.906,"end":384.938,"text":"那這個部分剛才在報告中有說到就是說我們現在規定的這個送交呢它是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的那個法例像是34條之一限制辯護人還有羈押被告接見通信的這個限制書"},{"start":385.999,"end":400.396,"text":"那還有這103條執行羈押的押票這我們事務上最常做的就是這個押票那還有203條之二的執行留置鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置票你們目的是什麼 要送達的目的是什麼"},{"start":402.741,"end":423.142,"text":"因為這是讓受採取人呢他可以真正的就是說收到這一份那個書那從這邊來開始就是作為那個我我想我聽懂的話就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛是明確的救濟時間我想說司法院是這個理由但是呢我想我請教一下副局長"},{"start":424.303,"end":448.395,"text":"實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行因為法務部跟我看了一下行政院跟市長院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方那警察在執行上面有沒有困難如果說每一份材料書都要送達執行機關跟當事人跟委員報告警察執行不是說有困難在很多包括我們的搜索扣押包括鑑定許可書事實上我們去都是出事"},{"start":448.955,"end":468.162,"text":"我們這些搜索票或是許可書讓他確認這樣的程序那我覺得警方在執行的時候如果能夠有一致的標準對於警察基層尤其是派出所的員警如果在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆而且這個現在已經限縮到他已經是"},{"start":468.842,"end":489.15,"text":"逮捕到案的人而且有相當理由等等這些我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微已經比較輕微了這跟這個壓票啦或怎麼樣我相信他的侵害權是不太一樣那我想就是說我先跟三位報告一下我自己的實務經驗在第一線因為我為錢帶隊搜索非常多次"},{"start":491.011,"end":519.87,"text":"就很多人知道我以前曾經戴瑞搜索被開過槍那還好沒打到我我要講的是第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實是有一個差距那當然當事人是不是可以提醒救濟這起算時間點我們也要予以重視但是呢是不是檢察官其實他告知要採尿其實這個時間點就可以起算了而不需要說明確要收到那個許可書不以收到許可書那個時間點"},{"start":521.532,"end":541.967,"text":"他才能夠保障他的救濟的起算時間其實檢察官做這個處分的時候他當時聽到了這個也是算是起算這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎所以這個是我提出來因為司法院的意思是說這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點但是在食物運作上面我自己的食物經驗其實"},{"start":543.228,"end":568.785,"text":"你要另外再要求警察機關再去做一個這個動作可能是多此一舉因為對於這個處分告訴當事人這個時間點是可以確定的譬如說筆錄可以確定譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達這會增加很多行政成本增加很多郵遞的費用以及增加"},{"start":569.545,"end":595.439,"text":"那個當事人將來的一些就是他可能就醫上面一些問題我覺得不一定說一定是好的所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通市長我補充一點就是說這個送交這個要給執行機關跟受採尿的人的話這個要件一旦放進去可是跟前面的205之一條件是不一樣第一線的警察如果弄混的時候那將來這一個"},{"start":597.526,"end":610.944,"text":"沒有送交簽名這個動作沒有送交這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的地方弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性的材料會被懷疑有證據能力的問題這個也是我們擔心的"},{"start":612.746,"end":629.049,"text":"所以我自己在看這個的時候我也會覺得說這個在實務上面反而會困擾自己所以說思考院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下看草案是不是一定要放入這個因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生因為我自己看完之後我也覺得"},{"start":630.03,"end":650.825,"text":"這個沒有必要 而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確啦就檢察官的處分時間點啦所以真的有需要再多一個送達來去保障嗎我想說刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公義以及被告的當事人的程序正義那這兩個權衡之下我是建議可以再討論這個問題"},{"start":653.863,"end":677.788,"text":"跟委員報告 司法院這部分是開放的就是我們會多聽從那個大家的意見更何況我們今天他是對於非侵入式的採尿如果侵入式當然我們可能意見就會比較多非侵入式的這個採尿其實而且是當事人自己排尿的有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行我想是這個我們可以"},{"start":678.368,"end":700.691,"text":"我們今天任何一個法律的立出來是要對國家社會有貢獻這才有意義而不是無限上綱的那個權力保障這是我個人的前見好那我在這部分我想麻煩法務部也能夠一個禮拜內給我一個演繹就是有關這個部分好謝謝法務部那我再請教一下司法院那司法院這軍事審判那個"},{"start":702.032,"end":713.078,"text":"最近一直在吵這軍審判的問題我想請問一下今天排審的法案之所以要修法我們也是為了提升正當法律程序對不對今天的議案"},{"start":714.755,"end":730.32,"text":"沒問題嘛那當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候其實我想對他的程序保障最重要的最重要就是我們要讓他在一個正當程序保障之下來接受訴訟來進行訴訟這個很重要嘛那所以"},{"start":735.239,"end":757.43,"text":"我們先告訴國人一件事情今天軍人犯罪的話那是不是他還是實體法部分適用軍事審判法程序上面改用刑事訴訟法現在是這樣對不對那你知不知道當初廢除我們暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":760.298,"end":778.004,"text":"這個部分是在那個民國102年的時候呢可能就是國人就是大家對於就是說軍事審判的部分對於那個正當程序的要求是不是能夠那個達到是這個部分大家有一些檢討對就是因為當時我們覺得我們我國的軍事審判他的程序保障的嚴謹度"},{"start":779.344,"end":797.31,"text":"是低於刑訴送法我想這個是沒有爭議的那這個 也就是這個原因所以當年民進黨以及當年非常多的國人他認為說我們軍審辦法先暫停適用非暫時我們就是讓他受到普通法院的那個程序保障"},{"start":797.93,"end":813.459,"text":"也就是因為這個原因所以有非常多的案子就是我記得好像是反滲透法類的啦還是這類的案子好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來很久了嘛所以我認為就是司法審判"},{"start":814.58,"end":834.856,"text":"普通法院的司法審判其實他的要求嚴謹度是很高所以他不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了那因為他的嚴謹度要求很高其實對當事人是一個保障啦那我個人是覺得說這些軍人也是大家的小孩而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已也是國人的小孩啊"},{"start":835.316,"end":853.232,"text":"那我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障到底錯在哪裡為什麼我們要走回頭路這是我個人的意見那當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個表達意見所以我想說我的認為就是為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的"},{"start":855.054,"end":882.446,"text":"司法程序要走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序更何況當年改的就是強力主張的就是現在的執政黨 民進黨而且現在又是民進黨希望把它改回軍事審判這個我想也要讓國人知道這個是蠻莫名其妙的而且對國家到底它的好處在哪裡其實我也想不通啦那我再請教一下那現在法院裡面是不是有設那個國安軍事專業案件的專股"},{"start":884.346,"end":913.043,"text":"有設專股或是專庭每個法院都有設嗎每個法院都有設好那我現在還是一個邏輯就是說目前有立法委員批評說這些法官不夠專業那我想如果我是不懂說一輩子從事審理審判案件的法官為什麼對於審理案件是不專業我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業"},{"start":915.426,"end":924.622,"text":"我想說對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉用這個去批評他不夠專業我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理啦所以我不太認同說"},{"start":926.894,"end":954.626,"text":"有些委員的這個說法啦那更何況我覺得普通法院的審判的獨立性是遠高於軍事法院啦這個我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理我想讓國家受到司法官訓練所法官學院出來的這些專業的法官檢察官追溯以及審判這個是保障一個國人最大的程序保障這個是最大的程序保障我想這個才對而不是"},{"start":955.766,"end":982.926,"text":"去做一些很奇怪的調整另外就是說 如果在喊說軍人受到滲透那我的一個感覺就是說奇怪 阿瑪英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透民進黨執政九年就軍隊都被滲透那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼為什麼九年了被滲透的這麼嚴重那就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人我們要重判該修的也是陸海工軍刑法而不是程序法的軍事審判法"},{"start":983.707,"end":989.493,"text":"邏輯也完全錯誤但是現在的政府就會誤導人民一直亂扯亂鬼扯我就像剛剛那個次長您回答吳思堯的問題一樣"},{"start":993.735,"end":1016.554,"text":"你們講說我們認為憲判八有一個東西一致覺得需要公投他就跟你扯說我們有沒有廢死我一致覺得這個問題我有意見跟我國有廢死有什麼關係第二個他說我們有執行一個死刑啊那怎麼會叫我國廢住死刑這個更是腦殘這是法盲的人講的話不好意思我剛那句話講錯這是法盲的人講的話因為"},{"start":1020.957,"end":1044.714,"text":"執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決一審二審三審那個叫做判決所以有沒有一致覺是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決這個跟判決確定的案子執行死刑這兩回事嘛怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑所以我國沒有廢除死刑"},{"start":1045.254,"end":1070.168,"text":"這在法律上面的邏輯是不對所以他剛剛說邏輯他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣我想說應該不是說邏輯有瑕疵的問題而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂他自己邏輯搞不清楚事實上這兩個東西是完全不同我想各位在場一定聽得懂我在講什麼那有的委員聽不懂就算了我已經我過去一年已經很努力但是我發現努力是對某些人是沒有效果的"},{"start":1070.885,"end":1095.617,"text":"所以次長剛剛你回答那個東西我在那邊聽我覺得這兩個東西無關啦所以我不這麼認同啦那因為廢除死刑與否我們從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除我們是對於所謂的判決中加以自決這個東西我們希望聽取人民的觀念但是有一些無良的政客他們就喜歡帶風向一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊你在公投什麼"},{"start":1096.357,"end":1109.851,"text":"然後就亂扯而對於一個沒有存在的東西進行公投我覺得這個都在騙人民啦這是現在這些政客們他們的每天的工作目的就是一直在騙人民但我對我自己的要求是不說謊講實話"},{"start":1111.613,"end":1136.029,"text":"那今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利 我們還是得說實話我不會像有些政客 只為了達到他某些目的 然後就去那邊胡說八道就像他說 他們對外說 昨天晚上開會叫做突襲拜託民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出要會議要延長到晚上12點然後如果是被突襲的話 還會有幾個人拿著那個牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎還有時間去準備那個牌子 事實上在昨天在吃"},{"start":1136.869,"end":1162.671,"text":"晚餐便當的時候他們都站一排在那裡準備要衝進來我們也都看到只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起如果這些造謠說謊政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話那其實是中華民國的悲哀因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊從一路以來從不管是這次談論公投不管是預算的審查等等的外面就是鬼扯蛋胡說八道"},{"start":1163.846,"end":1190.1,"text":"然後連總統各部會首長都在騙人這個真是難以想像啦因為我以前我以前以為是行政機關最多做到美化數據至少說出來不會是說謊但是會到現在譬如說洪正漢部長說那個什麼金貼育兒金貼被刪光結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪然後說不是我是口誤這個社會充斥的這種謊言那這國家該怎麼辦"},{"start":1192.939,"end":1208.65,"text":"這我有感覺 不好意思 回到剛剛我說的就是有關軍事審判這個部分 我還是必須這樣講因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩那這是我們的小孩 也是我們的國人你今天讓他受到更完整的"},{"start":1209.591,"end":1230.23,"text":"成績保障錯在哪裡那不要什麼東西都為了選票把意識形態拉進來其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫那最後一個小東西行事局跟司導業先回去最後一個 不好意思耽誤大家時間就是"},{"start":1231.712,"end":1239.332,"text":"次長 你也是檢察官出身 我也是檢察官出身嘛那次長 以前就是我們的長官 我們都非常的尊重 尊敬次長"},{"start":1241.3,"end":1268.094,"text":"這個北檢這次3月12號的北檢新聞稿今年3月12號跟10月22號談論有關就是一位檢察官到醫院就訓審訊被告這件事情那我想請教一下那第一個我前提先說這個案子已經起訴法院審理中所以法務部現在的檢察官現在不是承辦的人所以不要再像上一次開會的時候有"},{"start":1270.68,"end":1285.283,"text":"某幾個立委在那邊喊說干涉個案怎麼可以詢問個案一個已經起訴的案件不是法務部現在在懲辦中了那跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決"},{"start":1286.638,"end":1303.207,"text":"不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身份怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案在那邊大呼小叫我覺得這個水準也很不夠也是一個法盲所以我這邊請教一下所以當天這個林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問還是去視察那過去過去"},{"start":1307.967,"end":1323.934,"text":"五年內到底有多少檢察官是去視察那個視察醫院我想請教一下次長113年11月11號這一次是有詢問也有做筆錄那113年10月14號這一次是視察那兩次呢辯護人都在場"},{"start":1335.357,"end":1351.746,"text":"沒有 辯護人在場我沒有意見啦對那我的意思是說好 那以11號這次來說好了那你還沒有回答我第二個問題請問一下過去五年全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院而且有進行視察的程序這一個數字看守什麼醫院"},{"start":1360.117,"end":1379.959,"text":"喔 那看守所的醫院沒有不是看守所 不要跟我講看守所然後這個醫院的部分沒有對 那喔 不用說過去五年啦過去二十年啦我跟你講 我跟上報告可能我財疏血淺但我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡面我從來沒做過 也沒聽過有同仁去"},{"start":1381.443,"end":1408.595,"text":"醫院 正規的醫院去做視察場所的這個視察動作視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合這個在押的被告他在那邊會不會受到人格人性尊嚴上面的侵害嘛所以兩個是不一樣的東西啊那你混在一起講我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾的糾紛就是這裡那這每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重"},{"start":1409.235,"end":1426.631,"text":"所以我想請問過去20年有人這麼做嗎醫院視察的部分沒有對 所以這就是我講的我再三講我過去20年沒有這樣的例子過那你們不要跟我們談說什麼看守所等等的那個視察那個是日常在做"},{"start":1427.965,"end":1451.414,"text":"視察也有視察報告會帶書記官去進行視察報告都會做得很清楚會通知法院會呈報長官我想這個是該做的基本的作為所以我們這邊可以確認一件事過去20年除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外沒有全國沒有檢察官做過這個事情我問過一堆同學他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣子做所以因為這樣所以容易讓人家"},{"start":1452.813,"end":1477.354,"text":"而且甚至對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛我不是要譴責那位警察官我只是說請次長注意一下尤其是高度爭議案件政治案件對於程序的要求要求警察官要更嚴謹警察官千萬不能為了辦案為了辦出一個案子升遷不要說辦出案子升遷為了辦出一個案子有成就感而去就程序部分"},{"start":1478.876,"end":1503.324,"text":"亂做 我覺得這是不對的好不好 就是次長這部分要麻煩你們你們一定要做到那如果是去詢問 詢問有沒有全程錄音錄影這個也必須要求全國的檢察官一定要做到我今天給你們看 不好意思最後30秒一個Trace上面的檢察官自己寫的他認為就訊這個就是日常今天為什麼會發生這種事情 就是因為有"},{"start":1504.364,"end":1531.091,"text":"由檢察官濫用就訊的這個作為然後導致今天全國的檢察官包括司法受到人民的不信任所以法務部真的要出來處理這件事情你不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查我不去論他有沒有政治目的我都不去論而是檢察官你在辦案成功雖然會有成就感但你不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權"},{"start":1532.475,"end":1541.98,"text":"這是完全不對的那這個部分再麻煩這個是罪上面其他檢察官寫的那更不要講檢察官論壇裡面有非常多檢察官批評這件事不好意思耽誤大家時間 謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":466,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時39分）請問主席，我想會議詢問一下，因為我剛主持會議的時候有一點小衝突啦！主要就是我想要確認一下委員會的委員在質詢時間內，如果問的問題跟本日議程不一樣，到底可以還是不可以？因為之前吳思瑤委員曾經就委員在他的時間內詢問官員跟今日議程不一樣的題目，他當時一直抗議，因為今天他問的東西也跟今日議程完全不一樣，所以我剛剛只是要就這個會議程序的部分，我想做一個確認，我不知道主席對這部分有什麼想法？"],["主席：我想依照過去，不管是民進黨委員或是國民黨委員在主持司委會相關會議的時候，其實主席都會尊重委員在時間內的發言，通常不會去干預委員在質詢時間裡面的任何發言內容。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。因為剛剛我其實是公正的在主持會議，我認為這是一個會議怎麼進行的問題，跟政治惡鬥或者是什麼並沒有關聯性，我只是要確認一下，而且確認之後就是適用於每一個委員，而不是特定委員可以、特定委員不行。所以我剛剛只是這樣，我不知道為什麼剛剛有人會這樣大發脾氣，然後連髒話都罵出來。我也在這邊補充一下，罵人家垃圾在實務判決是構成公然侮辱，我想跟其他委員提醒一下，不是說罵人垃圾就沒事情，罵人垃圾其實是構成公然侮辱，尤其在國會殿堂裡面，身為一個國家中央級民意代表在那邊大吼大叫、拍桌子、罵髒話，其實這個作為就是讓人家取笑說到底我們國會議員的水準在什麼地方，當然社會本來對國會議員的期待，這段時間可能大家也都心裡有數啦！但是我還是希望說……至少我會這樣要求我自己，就是在國會開會、委員會開會的時候，除了最基本的要求自己要言之有物之外，也要懂得控制情緒，尊重別人，更不可以在那邊罵別人，在法律上面、實務上面已經有非常多的判決認定這個會構成公然侮辱的事情，如果可以隨隨便便就這樣的話，那臺灣國會其實會讓世界看笑話，這是我剛剛的會議詢問，我就是確認一下在我們詢問的時間內，就是要尊重委員的發言嘛！謝謝。"],["主席：我想剛剛莊瑞雄委員的不當發言，其實讓人家看笑話，整個……對不起！剛剛不是莊瑞雄委員，對不起！我剛剛說錯了，剛剛是沈發惠委員，他的不當發言是讓社會在看笑話，立法委員作為社會的表率，我覺得應該是在任何場合裡面都要謹慎發言，不可以有任何暴力或是辱罵這樣的行為。那麼像我們昨天在立法院院會裡面也看到，就是柯建銘總召暴力拿棍子敲桌子，然後甚至還波及傷害到了徐巧芯委員，其實這些都是非常不當的言行，我們希望未來在司委會的會議場合裡面，大家都能夠尊重委員的發言。"],["吳委員宗憲：我也跟主席及在座的各位委員還有各位報告，就像民進黨最喜歡說……最近對於中配亞亞案一直說言論自由不是毫無限制這個邏輯一樣，言論免責權也不是毫無限制，你不能動不動對人家罵髒話，像剛剛罵我垃圾，我在這邊說我不會去提告，因為你自己是不是個垃圾，自己心裡很清楚；那你罵別人垃圾，到底誰是垃圾？我想說就算了，我不會去提告，謝謝。","麻煩司法院、法務部以及刑事局。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝3位。在座是我以前的長官，還有以前一起合作辦過很多案子的副局長，我先說很高興在這邊能夠看到各位。我先請教一個問題，今天討論的主題是對於草案有關逮捕到案的犯罪嫌疑人，我們要對他進行非侵入式的採尿需要得到檢察官同意，讓檢察官保留核發許可書。但是我看到一個問題就是，實務上面有非常多的案子都必須對被告進行採尿動作，像毒販或是甚至像其他刑案有時候當事人在抗辯他可能是吸毒後所為，在量刑上面可能會有所不一樣，這個時候採尿都變成一個很重要的證據，我想3位都是在實務界，所以非常能夠理解。但是這次司法院跟行政院的版本最大的不同是檢察官保留的檢察官許可書要不要另外送交執行機關還有受採尿人，有沒有需要送達？我想先請教一下司法院，為何司法院在草案裡面有提到要送交執行機關以及受採取人？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢。這個部分剛才在報告中也有說到，我們現在規定的這個送交是採在刑事訴訟法相同的這些規定的法例，像是第三十四條之一限制辯護人，還有羈押被告接見通信的限制書，還有在第一百零三條執行羈押的押票，這是實務上最常做的押票，還有第二百零三條之二的鑑定留置票。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道，你們要送達的目的是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為這是讓受採取人可以真正的收到這一份書，從這邊來開始作為……"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘，我聽懂你的話，就是當事人起算救濟時間嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：是明確的救濟時間，我想司法院是這個理由。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我想請教一下副局長，實務上面這個有沒有辦法執行？我後來看了一下行政院跟司法院的版本不一樣是差在這個地方，警察在執行上面有沒有困難？如果每一份採尿書都要送達執行機關跟當事人？"],["林副局長故廷：跟委員報告，警察執行不是說有困難，在很多包括我們的搜索扣押，包括鑑定許可書，事實上我們去，都是出示這些搜索票或是許可書讓他簽名確認這樣的程序，我覺得警方在執勤的時候，如果能夠有一致的標準，對於警察基層，尤其是派出所員警，在執行這方面的話比較不會混淆，而且這個現在已經限縮到是逮捕到案的人，而且有相當理由等等這些，我想對於整個自由權的侵犯會比較輕微，已經比較輕微了，這跟押票或怎麼樣，我相信其侵害權是不太一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：了解。我先跟3位報告一下我自己在第一線的實務經驗，因為我以前也帶隊搜索非常多次，很多人也知道我以前曾經在帶隊搜索時被開過槍，還好沒打到我。所以我要講的是，第一線執行跟司法院在辦公室想的其實有差距，當然當事人是不是可以提請救濟，這個起算時間點我們也要予以重視。但是，檢察官告知要採尿，其實這個時間點就可以起算了，而不需要明確要收到許可書，不以收到許可書那個時間點才能夠保障他的救濟起算時間，其實檢察官做這個處分的時候，他當時聽到了，這個也算是起算，這不是對當事人也很有保障嗎？所以這個是我提出來，因為司法院的意思是這個是要確認當事人救濟的時間點嘛！但是在實務運作上面，我自己的實務經驗，其實你要另外再要求警察機關再去做這個動作，可能是多此一舉，因為對於這個處分，告訴當事人的時間點是可以確定的，譬如說筆錄可以確定，譬如說現場拍攝的影片可以確定，所以有沒有必要一定要做這個送達，這會增加很多行政成本、增加很多郵遞費用，以及增加當事人將來可能救濟上面的一些問題，我覺得不一定是好的，所以這個部分可能再麻煩司法院跟法務部這邊能夠溝通。次長？"],["徐次長錫祥：委員，我補充一點就是要送交給執行機關跟受採尿人的話，這個要件一旦放進去是跟前面的第二百零五條之一的條件不一樣，第一線的警察如果弄混的時候，將來沒有送交簽名的這個動作會直接影響到證據能力的問題，這個也是我們擔心的地方，弄混了以後反而後面的非侵入性採尿會被懷疑有證據能力的問題，這個是我們擔心的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以我自己在看這個的時候，我也會覺得這在實務上面反而會困擾自己，所以司法院就這個部分可不可以再思考一下，看草案是不是一定要放入這個？因為這在第一線執行上面將來會有一些麻煩發生，我自己看完之後，我也覺得這個沒有必要，而且對當事人的保障其實起算時間已經很明確，就是檢察官的處分時間點，所以真的有需要再多一個送達來保障嗎？我想刑事案件的偵辦同時要維護社會公益，以及被告當事人的程序正義，這兩個權衡之下，我是建議可以再討論這個問題。"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，司法院這部分是開放的，就是說我們會多聽從大家的意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。更何況今天是對於非侵入式的採尿，如果是侵入式的，當然我們可能意見就會比較多，非侵入式的採尿，而且是當事人自己排尿的，有沒有必要程序保障到會讓第一線的執行機關不好執行，我想我們今天任何一個法律的訂定，是要對國家社會有貢獻，這才有意義，而不是無限上綱的權利保障，這是我個人的淺見。有關這個部分，麻煩法務部能夠一個禮拜內給我一個研議，謝謝法務部。","我再請教一下司法院，最近一直在吵軍事審判的問題，我想請問一下，今天排審的法案之所以要修法，我們也是為了提升正當法律程序，對不對？就是有關今天的議案，沒問題嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：當人民接受司法機關偵查審判的時候，其實我想對於程序保障最重要的就是要讓他在一個正當程序的保障之下來進行訴訟，這個很重要，所以我們先告訴國人一件事情，今天軍人犯罪的話，實體法部分還是適用軍事審判法，程序上面改用刑事訴訟法，現在是這樣，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。你知不知道當初暫停軍事審判法適用的原因是什麼，您知道嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分是在民國102年的時候，可能國人對於軍事審判有關正當程序的要求是否能夠達到，針對這個部分大家有一些檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是因為當時我們覺得我國軍事審判的程序保障的嚴謹度是低於刑事訴訟法，我想這是沒有爭議的，也就是因為這個原因，所以當年民進黨以及非常多的國人都認為軍事審判法先暫停適用，非戰時就是讓他受到普通法院的程序保障，也就是因為這個原因，所以有非常多的案子，我記得好像是反滲透法類的還是這類的案子，好像現在都沒有一個確定判決出來，很久了嘛，所以我認為普通法院的司法審判其實要求的嚴謹度是很高，所以並不會像軍事審判很快就判出來了，那麼因為它的嚴謹度要求很高，其實對於當事人是一個保障，我個人是覺得這些軍人也是大家的小孩，而且大部分的軍人都是在20歲上下而已，也是國人的小孩，我們讓他受到比較完整的程序保障，到底錯在哪裡？為什麼我們要走回頭路？這是我個人的意見，當然我知道您現在的位置也不方便就這個部分表達意見，但我是認為為什麼我們要從一個保障嚴謹的司法程序走回保障不夠嚴謹的司法程序？更何況當年強力主張要改的就是現在的執政黨民進黨，現在又是民進黨希望改回軍事審判，我想也要讓國人知道這是蠻莫名其妙的，對國家的好處到底在哪裡？其實我也想不通。","我再請教一下，現在法院裡面是不是有設國安軍事專業案件的專股？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有設專股或是專庭。"],["吳委員宗憲：每個法院都有設嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：每個法院都有設。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我現在還是一個邏輯，目前有立法委員批評這些法官不夠專業，我是不懂一輩子從事審理、審判案件的法官，為什麼對於審理案件不專業？我想最多我們能夠說法官比較不專業的地方，可能是對於軍中的文化比較不熟悉，但是用這個理由去批評他不夠專業，對於國安的一些東西比較不熟悉，用這個去批評他不夠專業，我想這個邏輯也沒有什麼道理，所以我不太認同有些委員的這個說法；更何況我覺得普通法院的審判獨立性是遠高於軍事法院，這部分我想也沒有國人或是任何一個政治人物敢否認這個道理，讓國家受到從司法官訓練所、法官學院出來的這些專業的法官、檢察官追訴以及審判，這是對於國人最大的程序保障，我想這才對，而不是去做一些很奇怪的調整。","另外就是，如果在喊說軍人受到滲透，讓我感覺很奇怪，那馬英九時代為什麼沒有軍人受滲透？民進黨執政9年，軍隊就都被滲透，那你這個執政黨在搞什麼鬼？為什麼9年被滲透得這麼嚴重？就算我們要去處罰這些被滲透的軍人、我們要重判，該修的也是陸海空軍刑法，而不是程序法的軍事審判法，邏輯也完全錯誤，但是現在的政府就會誤導人民，一直亂扯、亂鬼扯，就像剛剛次長您回答吳思瑤的問題一樣，吳思瑤講什麼我們認為憲判字第8號的一致決需要公投，他就跟你扯我們又沒有廢死，對於一致決這個問題我有意見，跟我國有無廢死有什麼關係？第二個，他說我們有執行一個死刑啊，怎麼會叫我國廢除死刑？這更是法盲的人講的話，因為執行死刑是對於確定判決去執行死刑，能不能下判決是根本還沒有確定判決啊，一審、二審、三審那個叫做判決，所以有沒有一致決，是在法官審理案件的時候能不能夠下這樣的判決，這跟判決確定的案子執行死刑是兩回事嘛！怎麼會講說我國有執行一個死刑，所以我國沒有廢除死刑？這在法律上面的邏輯是不對的，所以他剛剛一直說這個邏輯怎麼樣，我想應該不是邏輯有瑕疵的問題，而是講話的人自己邏輯混亂，他自己邏輯搞不清楚，事實上這兩個東西是完全不同，我想各位在場的一定聽得懂我在講什麼，那有的委員聽不懂就算了，我過去一年已經很努力，但我發現努力對某些人是沒有效果的。","所以次長，剛剛你回答那個部分，我在那邊聽，我覺得這兩個東西無關啦，所以我不這麼認同。因為廢除死刑與否，我從來沒有說死刑被宣告違憲或廢除，我們是對於所謂的判決中加一致決這個部分，我們希望聽取人民的觀念，但是有一些無良的政客，他們就喜歡帶風向，一直騙人民說我國死刑沒有廢除啊，你在公投什麼？然後就亂扯說這是對於一個沒有存在的東西去進行公投，我覺得這都在騙人民啦，這是現在這些政客們每天的工作目的，就是一直在騙人民，但我對我自己的要求是不說謊、講實話，今天這個東西即使我講出來對自己不利，我們還是得說實話，我不會像有些政客只為了達到某些目的就胡說八道。就像他們對外說昨天晚上開會叫做突襲，拜託，民眾黨昨天白天就已經送出提案說會議要延長到晚上12點，如果是被突襲的話，還會有幾個人拿著牌子在那邊說會議無效嗎？還有時間去準備那個牌子？事實上，昨天在吃晚餐便當的時候，他們就站一排在那裡準備要衝進來，我們也都看到，只是我不想跟這些每天造謠說謊的政客混在一起，如果這些造謠說謊的政客就是我國的中央民意代表的話，那其實是中華民國的悲哀，因為你中央民意代表每天就是說謊，一路以來，不管是這次談論公投、不管是預算的審查等等，在外面就是鬼扯淡、胡說八道，然後連總統、各部會首長都在騙人，這真的難以想像。我以前以為行政機關最多做到美化數據，至少說出來不會是說謊，但是到現在，譬如洪申翰部長說育兒津貼被刪光，結果後來發現一毛都沒有刪，然後他說不是，我是口誤。這個社會充斥了這種謊言，那這個國家該怎麼辦？這是我的感覺。","不好意思，回到剛剛我說的，就是有關軍事審判這個部分，我還是必須這樣講，因為這些軍人都是我們的小孩，這是我們的小孩，也是我們的國人，今天讓他受到更完整的程序保障，錯在哪裡？不要什麼東西都為了選票，把意識形態拉進來，其實那個是對不起我們的子子孫孫。","請刑事局跟司法院先回去。","最後一個小東西，不好意思，耽誤大家時間。次長，你也是檢察官出身，我也是檢察官出身，次長以前就是我們的長官，我們都非常尊重、尊敬次長，有關北檢於今年3月12號及10月22號的北檢新聞稿談論有關一位檢察官到醫院就訊沈姓被告這件事情，我想請教一下，但我前提先說，這個案子已經起訴在法院審理中，所以法務部檢察官現在不是承辦人，不要再像上一次開會時，有某幾個立委在那邊喊：干涉個案、怎麼可以詢問個案。一個已經起訴的案件，現在就不是由法務部承辦中了，因此，跟法務部就這個案子的程序瑕疵去討論通案該怎麼解決，不這麼做才是對不起立法委員這個身分！怎麼會在那邊喊說干預個案，還大呼小叫？我覺得這個水準也很不夠，也是一個法盲。我在這邊請教一下，當天林姓檢察官去現場到底是訊問？還是去視察？過去五年內，到底有多少檢察官去視察醫院？我想請教一下次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：113年10月11日這一次有訊問，也有做筆錄；113年10月14日這一次是視察，兩次辯護人都在場。"],["吳委員宗憲：我對辯護人在場沒有意見。以10月11日這次來說……你還沒有回答我的第二個問題。請問過去五年，全國有多少檢察官去視察醫院，而且有踐行視察程序？"],["徐次長錫祥：看守所的醫院沒有，然後……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是看守所，不要跟我講看守所。"],["徐次長錫祥：然後醫院的部分沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：不要說過去五年，過去二十年呢？我跟次長報告，可能我才疏學淺，但在我自己二十年的檢察官生涯裡，我從來沒做過、也沒聽過有同仁去醫院，且是正規的醫院做視察場所的視察動作！視察跟做筆錄完全不一樣！視察是針對這個處所到底適不適合在押被告，他在那邊會不會受到人格、人性尊嚴上的侵害，所以兩個是不一樣的東西，你卻混在一起講！我覺得今天之所以造成那麼大的民眾糾紛的原因就在這裡，而每一個糾紛都對司法傷害很重！所以我想請問，過去二十年有人這麼做嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：醫院視察的部分沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這就是我講的，而且是再三地講：過去二十年沒有這樣的例子！所以你們不要跟我們說看守所等等的視察，那是日常在做的。視察也有視察報告，也就是會帶書記官去進行，視察報告都會做得很清楚，會通知法院、會呈報長官，這是該做的基本作為。因此我們可以確認一件事：過去二十年，除了這位檢察官曾經做過之外，全國沒有檢察官做過這種事！我問過一堆同學，他們連聽都沒有聽過這樣做的！因為這樣，所以容易讓人家有意見，而對於高度爭議案件更容易發生糾紛。我不是要譴責那位檢察官，我只是想請次長注意一下，尤其是高度爭議案件、政治案件，對於程序的要求要檢察官更嚴謹。檢察官千萬不能為了辦案，為了辦出一個案子升遷……不要說辦出案子升遷，為了辦出一個有成就感的案子而在程序部分亂做，我覺得這是不對的，好不好？次長，這部分要麻煩你們，希望你們一定要做到。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是去訊問，請問訊問過程有沒有全程錄音、錄影？這點也必須要求全國檢察官一定要做到。","不好意思，最後三十秒。我給你們看Threads上一個檢察官自己寫的，他認為就訊就是日常。今天為什麼會發生這種事情？就是因為有檢察官濫用就訊作為，導致全國檢察官，包括司法受到人民的不信任！法務部真的要出來處理這件事情，不能放任檢察官在做任何一個案子的偵查時……我不論他有沒有政治目的，這些我都不論。檢察官辦案成功雖然會有成就感，但不能為了成就感而去侵害被告的基本人權，這是完全不對的，這部分再麻煩。這是Threads上其他檢察官寫的，遑論檢察官論壇裡有非常多檢察官在批評這件事。不好意思，耽誤大家時間，謝謝次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位是蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","接下來我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34553b1cea53cb34269336bc333af6bdb0de8218cd9f46c9a148bf7fb5696d4c0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:31:35 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在黨委員先進 列席的政治局長官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請彭主委還有莊副主委代理局長還有新創處的胡處長那待會會問到打詐業務那問到的時候哪位相關主管就會來協助一下好 我也好好 主委也好 副主委也好 處長也好 來來 主委我們請教一下"},{"start":28.75,"end":35.655,"text":"亞洲金融中心 東京 香港 新加坡你覺得亞洲的國家的有錢人都到哪裡去投資 哪一個會到台灣來嗎"},{"start":37.011,"end":64.898,"text":"我想這四個都有可能 只是比例的問題好 比例的問題 那我們來看一下那個蘇偉強很含蓄印尼人在海外的資產八成在新加坡印尼的有錢人他們有大概2500億的美金的資產在海外那八成放在新加坡那印尼的富裕人口我們看到了富裕人口大概0.71那高淨額的投資人呢 占得更少但是他們持有的將近九成"},{"start":66.138,"end":80.638,"text":"放在流動性資產比如說印尼有錢人他不會在印尼買房地產他說頭利是什麼離岸債券海外的投資整額呢佔他們的36可能離岸債券佔他們的投資額的36好所以我們看到了只要"},{"start":81.618,"end":98.049,"text":"因為債券的投報穩定所以債券市場可以反映該地區的經濟和金融市場可以嗎主委同意嗎當然好那我們往下看那印尼那亞洲其他地方我們來盤點一下新加坡在疫情後呢他的債券常債的發行額談了"},{"start":100.14,"end":123.811,"text":"漲了六成 達到770億美金記好 香港呢 900億我們台灣的央行呢 大概只有480億你剛剛說比例嘛 我把比例給您看一下日本大概多少日本目前債券市場是13.3兆 是全球第三大請問一下 主委你認為台灣的債券市場發行額跟餘額相較差這麼多是不是不具投資吸引力"},{"start":124.751,"end":153.228,"text":"當然台灣的固定這個投資的市場相對是比較小不管公司債或是公債相對我們鄰近國家特別是日本是非常非常高他佔他GDP的比重非常高是的新加坡也是這跟我們過去在一向謹守財政紀律很大的關係所以我們債券市場從我們來看的話是未來我們在推動一個努力的方向對絕對是努力的方向但是債券市場要有投資優惠相關我們來看跟新加坡比好了"},{"start":153.948,"end":177.929,"text":"台灣的外匯管制有 新加坡沒有稅制優惠台灣沒有 新加坡有這些所謂的家族理財台灣沒有任何的優惠規定新加坡兩千萬五千萬的分配都有規定你覺得台灣在這方面要不要加強努力啊包括我們的外匯管制要自由一點我們的其他的優惠法制化要多一點"},{"start":178.973,"end":204.063,"text":"前一陣子就有一個外商銀行總裁來拜會我他就講說他很平心而論說台灣你要做他的觀察他說剛剛就是委員提到這幾件事情他是以對接新加坡的概念就是這些我們沒有所以人家的吸引力就比別人低他說對於某些這個高資產的客戶確實這幾個是有一個外匯的流動這個方便再來就是稅的誘因好我們來看一下那我就幫你問啊"},{"start":205.143,"end":233.366,"text":"雅致中心要不要放寬外匯法規啊央行總裁說很自由了啦問問財長 財長說很優惠了啦請問主委你覺得夠自由夠優惠了嗎當然國際的稅制有各式各樣的標準如果我們真的以跟新加坡來比我們確實還有努力的空間但是我們跟其他國家比不見得說我們當然是跟金融中心的其他國家比就新加坡啦不會跟其他不是金融中心的比啦"},{"start":234.307,"end":251.666,"text":"對 確實就是假設我們的策略如果跟新加坡完全相似的話在這一塊我們是居於劣勢是的 所以說現在拜託我們要發展雅致中心是不是請助我們是不是已經盤點了其他像香港新加坡的金融中心稅制優惠外匯管理規定 聘僱投資專員的這些規定有沒有去盤查過 盤點過 有沒有"},{"start":253.447,"end":275.478,"text":"這個我們隨時都在盤查好 那既然有盤查 可不可以你具體的提出你的願望清單你希望台灣要成為亞之中心 哪些稅制優惠跟哪些法規調整我們會參考 開個清單私下給我我來幫忙繼續問財長跟總裁 可以嗎沒問題 可以可以是你要公開給也可以啦 謝謝 下一個現在我們打炸了啦 打炸 我們打炸很麻煩喔"},{"start":276.673,"end":293.244,"text":"現在只要接受金融機構聯防機的通報單那我們要查金融機構要查什麼他有沒有轉出了 沒有就回報通常都會轉出轉出後要填寫一個通報單通知下一張受款銀行對不對是不是所有的銀行都遵照這個聯防機制了呢"},{"start":294.403,"end":309.057,"text":"據我所知應該是啊這個部分我們就我所知應該不是來我們看一下這邊有一個案子假銀行呢他通知了A銀行跟B銀行他說我們這個轉來這裡的呢已經轉到你那裡了請你該去把它"},{"start":310.049,"end":336.817,"text":"做回報結果呢這個A銀行說沒有這回事因為已經轉了太多層了我再轉下去呢會被客訴他不轉但是呢假銀行很困擾啊你不轉連房積是到我這裡我要不要回報啊所以你告訴我他已經沒有轉出去了你沒有告訴我他有沒有轉出去你也不處理那我就他就給他退件欸A銀行跟假銀行退件了說你不要來煩我那B銀行怎麼做來下一頁B銀行呢就乖乖的照規矩辦"},{"start":338.667,"end":357.759,"text":"請問一下 同樣是銀行 我假銀行按照規定聯邦基金匯進來的錢匯到你們A跟B去了有一家有回報 有一家不回報 怎麼處理我們希望說如果你不回報 你不能到給我退件 你就結案嘛你又不結案 你就退給我 我就不能結案 怎麼處理"},{"start":365.612,"end":384.134,"text":"來 副主委銀行業者可以自行決定不予聯防機制執行嗎如果存款帳號經通報為警示帳號所衍生的聯防機制有沒有法規基礎A銀行說沒有法規基礎我不照辦啊銀行業者他也不用出示公文啊他就說啊這個這個我就可以由員警來說就結案了可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":386.152,"end":414.925,"text":"報委員其實這個聯防機制我們原來是有一個緊緻賬戶的辦法那是銀行法的規定然後裡面因為其實後續衍生了一個就是聯防機制那這個聯防機制是定在銀行公會裡面的會員的規範所以如果就是嚴格而言的話不一定完全沒有法規的機制現在銀行在執行上面如果沒有按照這樣子來做的時候個案方面我們會再了解然後通案的部分我們看看"},{"start":415.385,"end":423.16,"text":"是不是有哪些地方要再加強很好你們會了解會處置那要加強 主委要加強要告訴你為什麼現在聯防大概開始呢"},{"start":426.194,"end":445.252,"text":"我往下看因為現在啊以前大概轉個個位數啊現在都轉四十幾手啊這個四十幾手呢你到了警政署的報案資訊他已經復活不了了就當機了所以連警政署依附現在的詐騙他一直轉手一直轉手很短的時間內轉了四十手"},{"start":446.053,"end":455.22,"text":"所以不要說有的銀行不想往下辦連警政署都當機那請問主委你們現在有在打詐會議嗎行政院有打詐中心的會議嗎"},{"start":456.641,"end":474.606,"text":"我們隨時 有沒有參加我們有 我們的其他同仁會定期的參加我們前陣打造會那我請你做兩件事情一個 你在打造中心回報一個 你們趕快找內政部你們兩個先溝通好警政署的怎麼解決你們銀行怎麼解決 可以嗎可以 沒問題好 所以我就簡單的做個結論"},{"start":476.587,"end":503.893,"text":"是不是請主委你的具體的 你盤點具體的來抵出相照於亞洲地區的其他金融中心我們希望未來台灣亞洲資產管理中心應該具備哪些稅制優惠和法規的調適項目你可以把它盤點出來 而且盡速跟我報告是好 那另外呢 我要請你再來研議確實執行與稽查存款帳戶通報為警示帳戶所衍生的聯防機制的方案因為現在發生有卡關了嘛"},{"start":504.753,"end":533.808,"text":"有的銀行不願往下辦有的銀行照辦銀行局也說要看個案處理警政署那邊如果你真的不辦警政署說 員警說你辦不下去了我給你開個登證明也沒有什麼效力那警政署呢他也附和不了一個詐騙人的轉帳經歷了三四十手他也查不下去了這個問題怎麼解決你們可以先研議一下嗎是 我們會來跟內政部來溝通你們會先跟內政部還是要在打詐中心提出來"},{"start":536.571,"end":557.62,"text":"同步來處理是不是也請副主委現在是銀行局代理局長是不是您再確實的說明這兩個您的期程工作的大概多久可以做好因為現在我們明顯的有街道關於炸團又再度死灰復燃我們銀行的聯防機制快要被攻破你們怎麼因應好"},{"start":561.584,"end":580.47,"text":"委員現在是我想喔因為這個主要是跟那個內政務警政署它的那個系統有關係我們大概在一個月內因為我們其實常常都在一起開會一個月內先跟內政務警政署看看有沒有立刻你們最近一次是什麼時候下一次會是什麼時候昨天其實就已經有跟內政務警政署有講到這個題目嗎"},{"start":581.77,"end":606.448,"text":"沒有 昨天是處理別的議題那下一次什麼時候下一次的話我們是看議題啦那這個議題可不可以拿到下一次談對 可以所以我才會說說我們會再跟警政署再開會然後這個我想說一個月內我們找他們開會一個月內你會跟他開下一次會對那主委如果有機會去行政院的話要把這個問題跟行政院的打招呼提出來行政院也有固定的這樣的會報來討論這些事情"},{"start":608.61,"end":610.733,"text":"好 謝謝諸位謝謝代理好 諸位議長謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝莊委員的質詢我們現在休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":546,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時31分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請彭主委，還有莊副主委（代理局長），還有新創處的胡處長。待會問到打詐業務的時候，哪位相關主管就來協助一下。"],["主席：請彭主委、莊副主委、胡處長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好、副主委好、處長好。主委，請教一下，亞洲金融中心，東京、香港、新加坡，你覺得亞洲的國家的有錢人都到哪裡去投資？會到臺灣來嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這四個都有可能，只是比例的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，主委講得很含蓄。我們來看一下，印尼人在海外的資產有八成在新加坡，印尼的有錢人大概有2,500億美金的資產在海外，八成放在新加坡，印尼的富裕人口大概占了0.71%；高淨值的投資人占得更少，但是他們持有了將近九成，然後是放在流動性資產，也就是說，印尼有錢人不會在印尼買房地產，他都投入了離岸債券，且離岸債券占他們總投資額的36%，這是因為債券的投報穩定，所以債券市場可以反映該地區經濟和金融市場開放程度，主委同意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們往下看，除了印尼，亞洲其他地方我們也來盤點一下，新加坡在疫情後，它長期債券的發行額漲了六成，達到770億美金；香港900億；我們臺灣的央行大概只有480億，你剛剛說到比例，我就把比例給您看一下，日本目前債券市場是13.3兆，是全球第三大。請問一下主委，你認為臺灣的債券市場發行額跟餘額相較差這麼多，是不是不具投資吸引力？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然臺灣固定投資的市場，相對是比較小，不管公司債或是公債，相對於我們鄰近國家，特別是日本，占它GDP比重非常高；新加坡也是，這跟我們過去一向謹守財政紀律有很大的關係，所以我們的債券市場就我們的角度來看，未來是我們在推動上一個可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：努力的方向？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對！對！對！絕對是我們努力的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是債券市場要有投資優惠及相關的配套，就跟新加坡比好了，外匯管制，臺灣是有的，但新加坡沒有；稅制優惠，臺灣沒有，但新加坡有；所謂的家族理財，臺灣沒有任何的優惠規定，新加坡就2,000萬、5,000萬都分別有規定。你覺得臺灣在這方面要不要加強努力？包括我們的外匯管制要自由一點，我們其他的優惠法制化要多一點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：前一陣子有一個外商銀行總裁來拜會我，他提到，平心而論，如果臺灣要做委員剛才提到的這幾件事，就他的觀察，他是以對接新加坡的概念……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為這些我們都沒有，所以對人家的吸引力就比其他國家低。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他說，對於某些高資產的客戶，確實這幾個是誘因，像有一個外匯流動上的方便，再來就是稅的誘因。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，我就幫你問央行總裁：「亞資中心要不要放寬外匯法規？」央行總裁說很自由了。我也有問財長，財長說很優惠了。請問主委，你覺得夠自由、夠優惠了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然國際的稅制有各式各樣的標準，如果我們真的跟新加坡來比，我們確實還有努力的空間，但是我們跟其他國家比，不見得比較嚴格。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們當然要跟是金融中心的其他國家比，也就是新加坡，不會跟其他不是金融中心的國家比啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們的策略如果跟新加坡完全相似的話，在這一塊我們是居於劣勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以現在要拜託你們，我們要發展亞資中心，主委，我們是不是已經盤點了像香港、新加坡這些金融中心的稅制優惠、外匯管理規定、聘僱投資專員等相關規定？有沒有去盤查過、盤點過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們隨時都在盤查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，既然有盤查，你可不可以具體的提出你的願望清單？你希望臺灣要成為亞資中心，那我們可以參考哪些稅制優惠跟哪些法規調整，你開一個清單私下給我，我來幫忙繼續問財長跟總裁，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要公開給也可以，謝謝。","現在我要問打詐了，打詐的問題很麻煩喔！現在只要接獲金融機構聯防機制的通報單，那金融機構要查什麼？要查它有沒有轉出了，如果沒有就回報。通常都會轉出，轉出後要填寫一個通報單，通知下一家匯款的受款銀行，對不對？是不是所有的銀行都遵照這個聯防機制了呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：據我所知，應該是，這個部分我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：據我所知，應該不是。我們看一下這邊有一個案子，甲銀行通知了A銀行跟B銀行，他說這個轉來這裡的已經轉到你那裡了，請你要去把它做回報，結果這個銀行說沒有這回事，因為已經轉了太多層了，我再轉下去會被客訴，所以他不轉，但是甲銀行就很困擾，因為你不轉，聯防機制到我這裡，我要不要回報啊？除非你跟我說他已經沒有轉出去了，可是你沒有跟我說他有沒有轉出去，你也不處理，結果就給他退件欸！A銀行對甲銀行退件，還說你不要來煩我，那B銀行怎麼做？我們看下一頁，B銀行就乖乖的照規矩辦。請問一下，同樣是銀行，甲銀行按照規定依聯防機制把匯進來的錢匯到A銀行跟B銀行去了，然後有一家有回報、有一家不回報，要怎麼處理？我們希望的是如果你不回報，你不能退件給我，你就結案嘛！可是你又不結案，你就退給我，我就不能結案，要怎麼處理？副主委，銀行業者可以自行決定不依聯防機制執行嗎？如果存款帳號經通報為警示帳號，所衍生的聯防機制有沒有法規基礎？A銀行說沒有法規基礎，我不照辦，銀行業者也不用出示公文，他就說只要由員警授權就結案了，可以這樣子嗎？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：報告委員，其實這個聯防機制，我們原來是有一個警示帳戶的辦法，那是銀行法的規定，後續就是衍生一個聯防機制，這個聯防機制是訂在銀行公會的會員規範裡面，所以嚴格而言的話，不一定完全沒有法規的機制，現在銀行在執行上面如果沒有按照這樣子來做的時候，個案方面我們會再了解，然後通案的部分我們看看是不是有哪些地方要再加強。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，你們會了解、會處置、要加強，主委，要加強要告訴你啦！為什麼現在聯防會開始呢？我們往下看，因為以前大概轉的次數是個位數，現在都轉四十幾手，警政署對報案資訊已經負荷不了，就當機了，所以連警政署要應付現在的詐騙，因為一直轉手、一直轉手，在很短的時間內轉了40手，所以不要說有的銀行不想往下辦，連警政署都當機了。主委，請問你們現在有打詐會議嗎？行政院有打詐中心的會議嗎？你們有沒有參加？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我們其他的同仁會定期參加行政院的打詐會議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我請你做兩件事情，一個是你在打詐中心回報；一個是你們趕快找內政部，你們兩個先溝通好，看警政署的要怎麼解決，你們銀行要怎麼解決，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我就簡單的做個結論。主委，請你在盤點後具體的提出，相較於亞洲地區的其他金融中心，我們希望未來臺灣亞洲資產管理中心應該具備哪些稅制優惠和法規的調適項目，請你把它盤點出來，而且儘速跟我報告。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，我要請你研議「確實執行與稽查存款帳戶經通報為警示帳戶所衍生之聯防機制」之方案，因為現在發生卡關了，有的銀行不願意往下辦，有的銀行照辦，銀行局也說要看個案處理，到了警政署那邊，如果你真的不辦，員警說你辦不下去，我就給你開個登記證明，也沒有什麼效力，那警政署也負荷不了，因為一個詐騙的轉帳經歷了三、四十手，他也查不下去了，對於這個問題要怎麼解決，你們可以先研議一下嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會來跟內政部溝通。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會先跟內政部講還是要在打詐中心提出來？都會做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，同步來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主委現在是銀行局代理局長，請您再確實的說明這兩個工作的期程，大概多久可以做好？因為現在我們明顯的有接到詐團又再度死灰復燃，我們銀行的聯防機制快要被攻破，你們怎麼因應？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：委員，我想這個主要是跟內政部警政署的系統有關係，因為我們其實常常都在一起開會，我們在一個月內先跟內政部警政署來看看有沒有立刻……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們最近一次是什麼時候？下一次會是什麼時候？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：昨天其實就已經有跟內政部警政署……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有講到這個題目嗎？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：沒有，昨天是處理別的議題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那下一次是什麼時候？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：下一次我們是看議題，沒有很……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這個議題可不可以拿到下一次談？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：可以，所以我才會說我們會再跟警政署開會，我想我們在一個月內找他們開會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在一個月內你們會跟他們開下一次會？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，主委，如果你有機會去行政院的話，要把這個問題跟行政院的打詐中心提出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：會，行政院也有這樣的固定會報來討論這件事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委，謝謝副主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員的質詢。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時41分）","繼續開會（10時51分）"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：報告委員會，我們現在繼續開會。","接下來我們請李坤城委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34520cc12e2926d2de9336bc333af6bdb0de8218cd9f46c9a1672f50a45871b9275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:19:48 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我想這個我們希望它變成一個標竿未來其他業態的就是說同樣業態的一些生態大家都可以納進來那另外我想請教主委就是說除了這四家納入金保法之外有幾個問題就是包括我們第二階段會不會是也把國營轉投資公司的子公司也一併納入"},{"start":148.018,"end":173.974,"text":"沒錯第二階段的部分我們在半年後我們大概會就是進行我們既定的第二階段會把我們現在比如說金融機構轉投資的這些14家這個融資租賃相關行業也會就是目標那會有第三階段嗎第三階段的話就是我們針對在租賃公會一定額度的我們現在是這樣規劃因為接下來他們就比較多的不同的這樣的屬性我們會還有第三階段"},{"start":174.734,"end":203.459,"text":"還會有第三階段那主委我想請教你就是說像這些業者過去三家包括三家租賃業者被稱為是鼠橋三兄弟包括媒體跟輿論成為笑柄那業者也非常難過就是說在這整個金寶法溝通的過程當中他們也配合也希望自我要求過去在公共裡面自我要求那現在金管會希望就是說有一些更進一步的管理讓他們成為表率"},{"start":204.119,"end":226.329,"text":"有沒有可能有機會鼓勵他們譬如說我們很多蔬菜有一些認證有機有一些認證我們可不可以把它也稱為是說他們是驚奇四超人因為他配合我們未來一些金寶法的管理讓整個業者的那個生態未來的自律性會更高"},{"start":227.129,"end":247.035,"text":"其實我在這邊當然我們當然是很期待我們的這些有更多的保護機制來保護我們的消費者那其實我們金融消保法是我們對金融業最低的要求那這樣的話他們願意但是這一次是他們非常積極他們也配合你們的管理所以我覺得也應該正面的"},{"start":247.735,"end":270.498,"text":"給他們多一點的鼓勵就是過去他們被外界或被媒體被輿論稱為數條三兄弟但是是很多其實業態有八千多家是不是全部他們都蓋瓜承受那我覺得在這一次他們接受納管而且他們也很積極配合你相關的法規我覺得也應該給予更多正面的鼓勵譬如說"},{"start":271.879,"end":289.008,"text":"從鼠橋三兄弟其實我們應該說他們是驚奇四超人你會不會反對在這一次溝通的過程當中當然我覺得在監理的過程當中本來就是他們要開始進入到常態化的納管他們必須要投入成本"},{"start":289.448,"end":312.761,"text":"但是主委我覺得就是說他配合你納管我就有時候正面多一點鼓勵包括你後面有第二階第三階這才會是一個正面社會更多正面的循環業者也配合政府的管理政府在溝通過程當中也非常的順暢所以我覺得彼此互動過程當中多一點正面我覺得才是社會正向的循環所以我才提到說"},{"start":313.841,"end":340.964,"text":"過去批評人家是數條三兄弟這一次的溝通過程當中我們可以稱他說你們不錯你們是驚奇四超人配合我們其實他總共有12個對我知道啦你後面會有越來越多所以我是提醒你有這樣正面的交流跟互動後面在管理就會越來越正面才會真正把所有不分黨派所有委員質詢的方向大家關注的議題才有機會做更好"},{"start":341.544,"end":364.151,"text":"更多的落實良性的監理互動環境我們是支持的我們接下來也跟委員報告我們在做這個公告的時候會把他們這12家公司一一的列明出來就很清楚的知道對這也是讓民眾也知道說這個是我接受管理的有一個認證標章的那個概念就譬如說我們買蔬菜有認證標章我就會去買"},{"start":365.131,"end":384.505,"text":"所以說我覺得這個是所以我剛才為什麼提到這件事情就是我覺得他們是正面良性的納管我們有一定的監管機制在裡頭讓民眾覺得說他是接受我納管未來更多的業者說不定主動希望來接受你納管我們法務處的同仁也建議就是說未來我們這個公告的時候會把"},{"start":386.087,"end":399.524,"text":"這12家名稱都飆烈起來所以你應該不會反對我說過去人家批評是俗條三兄弟現在接受納管以後有機會變成驚奇的四超人或十二超人我不會幫他們取名字啦但是就是說外界看他們的表現"},{"start":400.905,"end":416.379,"text":"外界看他們表現要取什麼東西我們都其實都不反對謝謝主委不管你取什麼就是我覺得有一個正面的鼓勵我希望是這樣子主委我第二個問題就是說未來就是說納管之後我們金融消費的評議"},{"start":418.641,"end":440.011,"text":"就是件數會增加我要提醒你就是說我們現在金融消費者的評議中心量能到底夠不夠量能是不是要加強因為過去我們沒有在處理一下子納管這麼多所以這個到底要不要加強我想這部分也是我們在做一開始我們就已經開始在準備這些事情了那我想"},{"start":440.911,"end":467.751,"text":"如果有需要我可以請杜董事長來這邊講一下那我們已經注意到這個問題我們也會增加資源整個配套措施我想當然也都完備主委為什麼這樣子提就是說除了量能會增加之外我們當然還是希望如果有這些消費者爭議我們能夠處理得更快才會看到金寶法納管之後整個政府的效率有做調整"},{"start":468.351,"end":488.871,"text":"那外界也有在呼籲說,到底租賃業者要不要訂專法的聲音那主委,你現在的態度跟去年有沒有不同?其實我還是一樣的,就是說我們有問題要先解決,如果等專法的話我想這個專法剛剛也有提到,97年就提出來為什麼這麼久提出這個版本,為什麼大家一直沒辦法訂案,這個問題非常複雜"},{"start":490.532,"end":508.265,"text":"我研究以後發現說很難很快的達到一個共識但是我們先從這來做累積一些監理的經驗我們持續針對融資公司未來管理專法如何我們還是持續研究中如果真的要推動專法的話那租賃業者超過8000家全部都"},{"start":508.985,"end":535.888,"text":"放進來一起納管嗎那當然不可能我覺得未來絕對是應該先定義他的範圍我覺得這很困難就是說其實我剛才也有提到融資公司是我們一般的通稱其實市場上並不是有這麼一個明確的業態界線沒有錯而且他們做的範圍其實都不一致所以這是過去為什麼這麼難三四十年沒辦法做一個定案但我們先用這個方法累積監理的經驗也許可以做為未來專法很重要的依據"},{"start":536.328,"end":560.961,"text":"好謝謝主委你的回應不過主委我還是要提醒就是說目前三大家租賃業者四大家在2024年包括像中古車的交易總經理原來是495億元現在下降43%然後第二季包括乘坐從原來的186億元就是他們去年每一家這三大家業績都下降就是說"},{"start":562.242,"end":579.014,"text":"下降不管無論這是消費者的決定但是租賃業者納入金保法之後業者未來他對於乘坐個金個金不是契金的意願會下降最後反而會使消費者會不會轉向其他八千家沒有納管的來去做借貸"},{"start":580.135,"end":595.726,"text":"反而讓業者消費者承擔更大的風險這個主委你的看法是什麼我是雙軌並進第一個納管以後當然對一些比較做不好的會被淘汰但是我們現在另外一個方向我們也鼓勵"},{"start":598.187,"end":614.679,"text":"我們也會請銀行來研究這一塊他們過去他不做的怎麼樣以普惠金融的角度把它擴大過來我想這部分因為既然租賃公司可以做代表它也是一個市場我覺得假設我們也鼓勵銀行我也請我們同仁"},{"start":615.419,"end":634.399,"text":"朝這個方向來努力讓他雙軌並進好我最後一句話就好了主委那個IFRS 17跟TWICS的接軌我們現在已經完成第四階段的協助措施未來你目前的做法目前的協助就是說目前第四階段處理的你滿意嗎有什麼需要加強的"},{"start":635,"end":646.645,"text":"未來會不會有第五階段的協助措施或者是甚至不處理不推第五階段會不會有個別的行政手段去做協助讓明明一號上路可以更順利當然這是一個保險業重大的一個轉型iPhone 17我剛剛報告過問題比較小"},{"start":655.028,"end":673.553,"text":"這個有關新一代清償能力的部分呢因為我們去年12月3日提了一個第四階段我們亞洲唯一採用你要不要提第五階段會不會我們就是第四階段講完了我們後面很多東西按照表定要把很多的數據公佈出來我們按照這個時程在走"},{"start":674.033,"end":699.333,"text":"那當然我剛才講說亞洲唯一採用韓國態勢隨時滾動式調整我覺得我們是要解決問題我們要讓我們的產業順利轉型這是我們最重要的目標謝謝後續會有其他行政手段嗎我們隨時有必要的事情我們都會來做適度的調整謝謝好 謝謝李委員的質詢下面請鍾嘉斌委員質詢報告委員會鍾委員質詢完畢以後我們休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時19分）謝謝召委，請主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主委好。我想過去這一年在財委會其實很多委員都非常關心融資公司納入金保法相關的一些規範，去年我在同一個地方也跟你溝通過有關融資公司納入金保法的議題，你回應我說跟業者正在尋求共識，法規已經準備好了，社會有高度期待，六個月之後可以上路。我要請問主委，現在跟業者的溝通是不是已經達成了，是不是有共識？"],["彭主任委員金隆：也謝謝委員過去的居中協調，我們跟業者的溝通非常順暢，我們也開過六、七次技術性的會談，應該已經……"],["李委員彥秀：對，是不是經過這些溝通協調，讓大家彼此也了解未來整個金保法的修法方向怎麼走更順利？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們跟他們工作層次大概也開過非常多次的會議，針對子法內容、可行性這些部分也都跟他們做了溝通，還有就是我們對它的期待、要求都跟它講了，我想現在應該是沒有什麼爭議，大概會按照……"],["李委員彥秀：所以配合度也非常高？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對他們來講成本增加、未來的法遵要求變高，他們當然還在適應……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你也會給他們包括系統建置的時間等，因為你不是所有業態的業者全部納管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，先從大的開始。"],["李委員彥秀：對，先從部分開始，那後續金管會預定實施的時間會在第三季還是在第四季？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛才前面的委員有問到，最快等我們有三個子法預告完成以後就可以開始執行，等於我們預計如果快的話4月初就會預告，法定預告期間要兩個月的時間，所以我們現在預期是6月30號能夠讓它生效。生效的時候我們在函令現在規劃是有兩到三個月讓他們做作業的緩衝，最快在8月底、9月初應該就會生效。"],["李委員彥秀：好的，我們希望它變成一個標竿，未來其他同樣業態的業者都可以納進來。","另外我想請教主委，除了這4家納入金保法之外，有幾個問題，包括我們第二階段會不會也把國營轉投資公司的子公司一併納入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒錯，我們在半年後大概會進行我們既定的第二階段，也會把現在比如說金融機構轉投資的這14家融資租賃相關行業納入。"],["李委員彥秀：這是目標？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員彥秀：那會有第三階段嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第三階段就是針對租賃公會一定額度的，我們現在是這樣規劃，因為接下來就有比較多不同的屬性，我們還會有第三階段。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我想請教你，像這些業者，過去3家租賃業者被媒體跟輿論稱為「薯條三兄弟」，成為笑柄，業者也非常難過，在整個金保法溝通的過程當中，他們也配合，也希望自我要求，現在金管會希望有一些更進一步的管理，讓他們成為表率。有沒有可能有機會鼓勵他們，譬如說我們很多的蔬菜有一些認證，像有機等的認證，我們可不可以也把他們稱為是「驚奇四超人」，因為他們配合未來一些金保法的管理，讓整個業者的生態未來的自律性會更高。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然是很期待有更多的保護機制來保護我們的消費者，其實金融消保法是我們對金融業最低的要求，這樣的話，他們願意……"],["李委員彥秀：但這一次是他們非常積極，他們也配合你們的管理，所以我覺得也應該正面的給他們多一點的鼓勵，過去他們被外界或被媒體、被輿論稱為「薯條三兄弟」，但是其實業態有八千多家，是不是全部他們都概括承受？我覺得這一次他們接受納管，而且他們也很積極配合相關的法規，也應該給予更多正面的鼓勵。譬如說「薯條三兄弟」其實我們應該說他們是「驚奇四超人」，你會不會反對？在這一次溝通的過程當中。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我覺得在監理的過程當中，本來就是他們要開始進入到常態化的納管，他們畢竟要投入成本……"],["李委員彥秀：但是主委，我覺得他們配合你納管，有時候正面多給一點鼓勵，包括你後面有第二階、第三階，這才會是一個社會更多正面的循環，業者也配合政府的管理，政府在溝通過程中也非常順暢，所以我覺得彼此互動過程當中多一點正面，我覺得才是社會正向的循環。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我同意啊！但是……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我才提到，過去批評人家是薯條三兄弟，而在這一次的溝通過程當中，我們可以說：你們不錯！你們是驚奇四超人，因為有配合我們。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實它總共有12個。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，後面會有越來越多。所以我是提醒你，有這樣正面的交流跟互動，後面在管理上就會越來越正面，才會把所有不分黨派、所有委員質詢的方向、大家關注的議題，才有機會真正做更多的落實。"],["彭主任委員金隆：良性的監理互動環境，我們是支持的，也跟委員報告，接下來我們在做公告的時候，會把這12家公司一一地列明出來，這樣就可以很清楚地知道。"],["李委員彥秀：對！這也是讓民眾知道，這個是有接受管理的，有一個認證標章的概念在裡面，譬如說我們買蔬菜有認證標章的，我就會去買，所以我剛才為什麼提到這一件事情，就是他們是正面良性的納管，我們有一定的監管機制在裡頭，讓民眾覺得他們是有接受納管，未來說不定有更多的業者主動表示，希望能夠接受你的納管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們法務處同仁也有建議，未來我們公告的時候，把這12家名稱都標列出來。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你應該不會反對我說的，過去人家批評是薯條三兄弟，現在接受納管了，以後有機會變成驚奇四超人或十二超人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會不會幫他們取名字，但就是看他們的表現，至於外界看他們的表現後要取什麼名稱，我們都沒有什麼意見，畢竟主要是看他們的表現。"],["李委員彥秀：你們都不反對，好，謝謝主委，不管取什麼名字，這都有一個正面的鼓勵，我希望是這樣子。","主委，我的第二個問題是，未來納管之後，我們金融消費評議件數會增加，我要提醒你，現在金融消費者評議中心的量能到底夠不夠、量能是不是要加強，因為過去我們沒有在處理，現在一下子納管這麼多，所以這個部分到底要不要加強？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們董事長也在這邊，其實在一開始我們就已經開始準備這些事情，如果有需要，我可以請杜董事長在這邊說明一下。此外，我們已經注意到這個問題，我們也會增加資源，整個配套措施大概也都完備了。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我為什麼這樣子提，除了量能增加之外，我們當然還是希望如果有這些消費者爭議產生，希望能夠處理得更快，才會看到金保法將其納管之後，整個政府的效率有做調整，當然外界也有呼籲，就是租賃業者的部分到底要不要訂專法的聲音。主委，你現在的態度跟去年有沒有不同？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我還是一樣的，就是我們有問題要先解決，至於要等專法的話，剛剛也有提到，這個專法97年就提出來，為什麼這麼久了大家還是一直沒辦法定案，因為這個問題非常複雜，我研究後發覺，這個很難、很快地達到一個共識，所以我們先從這裡來做，累積一些監理的經驗，所以針對融資公司未來的管理專法，我們還是持續在研究中。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，未來如果真的要推動專法的話，租賃業者超過8,000家，全部都放進來一起納管嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不可能，我覺得未來絕對是應該先定義它的範圍，我覺得這很困難，其實我剛才也有提到融資公司是我們一般的通稱，其實市場上並不是有這麼一個明確的業態界線。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有錯。"],["彭主任委員金隆：再來，他們做的範圍其實都不一致，這也是過去三、四十年為什麼沒辦法有一個定案的原因，所以我們現在先用這個方法累積監理的經驗，未來也許可以作為訂定專法一個很重要的依據。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委的回應，不過，主委，我還是要提醒，就是目前三大家租賃業者……"],["彭主任委員金隆：四大家。"],["李委員彥秀：四大家租賃業者，在2024年包括像中古車的交易總金額，原來是495億元，現在下降43%，然後第二季包括承作的部分，從原來的186億元，後來也是下降的，去年這三大家每一家的業績都下降，無論如何，這是消費者的決定，但是租賃業者納入金保法之後，業者未來對於承作個金不是企金的意願會下降，最後會不會反而讓消費者轉向其他八千家沒有納管的業者來去做借貸，反而讓業者、消費者承擔更大的風險。對此，主委的看法是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是雙軌並進，第一個，納管以後，對一些比較做不好的，當然會被淘汰，但是我們現在有另外一個方向，就是鼓勵……"],["李委員彥秀：我們擔心，因為他們都不做個金。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也會請銀行來研究過去他們不做的這一塊，看看怎麼樣以普惠金融的角度把它擴大過來，就這部分，既然租賃公司可以做，代表它也是一個市場，或許我們也可以鼓勵銀行來做，我也會請我們同仁朝這個方向來努力，讓它雙軌並進。"],["李委員彥秀：我最後一句話就好了。主委，IFRS 17跟TW-ICS的接軌，我們現在已經完成第四階段的協助措施。你們目前的作法、目前的協助，就是目前第四階段處理的狀況你滿意嗎？有什麼需要加強的？未來會不會有第五階段的協助措施？甚至不處理、不推第五階段？會不會有個別的行政手段去做協助，讓明年1月1號的上路可以更順利？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這是保險業一個重大的轉型，IFRS 17我剛才報告過了，問題比較小，但有關新一代清償能力的部分，因為我們去年12月31日提了一個第四階段，我們亞洲唯一採用的……"],["李委員彥秀：你要不要提第五階段？會不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就是第四階段走完了，後面很多東西按照表定，要把很多的數據公布出來，我們按照這個時程在走，當然我剛才有說，亞洲唯一採用的是韓國，它也是隨時滾動式調整，我們是要解決問題，我們要讓我們的產業順利轉型，這是我們最重要的目標。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：後續會有其他行政手段嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：隨時有必要的話，我們都會來做適度的調整，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。","報告委員會，鍾委員質詢完畢以後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34faea84646be284b5ae9eb35b51f79668de8218cd9f46c9a1292713caf9906ddb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:27:21 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他有來幫忙這也是我們這個整個獎金發放的一個制度可是問題是你如果弄到最後跟法律的明文的規定起訴起訴了以後就四分之一你起訴的案件這麼多可是呢你真正你給的案件才又不到四分之一"},{"start":142.958,"end":155.777,"text":"會不會有這個問題因為不是每個案子都有人檢舉不是所有的案子都所以不能用起訴的量來看合法獎金的量我現在就是有人檢舉我不知道跟你說我檢舉完之後"},{"start":158.44,"end":175.048,"text":"這個部分我們因為是層級就是從地檢署開始層級往上層爆那我們也都盡量來簡化它的流程我們也會要求各省級增加那個審核人力我們會要求審核的效率要提高那當然啦"},{"start":175.928,"end":201.67,"text":"我們還是有原則 我的意思是說人民願意冒這樣的一個風險去做一個對於這個不法來做一個檢舉 尤其是選舉的一個案件我們政府理當給予他是按照法律的規定給他回饋 這也合理啦這也合理啦那另外呢 我又來就教了就是說這個部分可能就要請司法院司法院那個法務請回"},{"start":204.689,"end":218.939,"text":"針對這個鑑定制度我要來請教副秘書長就是說我們整個刑務訴訟法的鑑定制度修法就是說2017年的司法改革國是會議對於鑑定因為鑑定對判決影響非常大甚至"},{"start":220.06,"end":240.608,"text":"也在講說這個鑑定人等於是穿白袍的一個法官法官你不可能所有的專業知識全部都知道我們就必須要委託去做一個鑑定所以鑑定人在司法審判中他確實有很大的一個影響力可是呢新制啊我看我們新制通過以後啊他就變成鑑定人的資格也更明確了那也"},{"start":241.528,"end":263.922,"text":"具有實務的一個經驗那當事人也可以去選任鑑定人那提升那個對等性鑑定人的具名並揭露利益關係鑑定人可接受交誤結問促進公平的一個審理這個都新制的一個重點但問題來了問題就我們現在整個醫療的一個鑑定陷入了一個僵局就制度卡關"},{"start":265.323,"end":291.06,"text":"為什麼會這樣子 我相信副秘書長或者這個次長這邊也很清楚你醫師要去據名跟接受結問這個壓力真的是太大你整個鑑定的報告變成工坊的一個焦點如果說以各位是醫生的話 你可以體會得到公親告別要變署住啦那我們現在全國的法官跟檢察官我們去送請的案件以後 三百件"},{"start":291.94,"end":305.095,"text":"全部都被退件所以我要就較我們司法院這個地方今年在2月跟3月還有去年的11月你們召開了這樣的一個諮詢會議你們到底有沒有具體的改善措施"},{"start":308.433,"end":334.161,"text":"謝謝委員那個垂詢因為就是如同委員所剛所講的就是說他新的刑事訴訟法那個規定事實上是有他要追求的那個目的那在那個執行的時候呢現在目前就是最主要的是那個一審會這個部分就是認為說那個就是要具名這個部分就是有很大的一些那個阻力"},{"start":334.801,"end":364.001,"text":"那所以就是目前我們那個司法院有提出那個兩個那個措施一個呢是就是說在他們在接受這一個機關鑑定的時候這個具名呢是可以用隱匿的就是用那個隱匿封那個封間的那個方式迷封迷封對用迷封那還有一個就是說他們如果那個到庭來的時候呢事實上也可以就是說用遠距詢問然後不揭露他們的那個姓名的這種那個方式"},{"start":364.861,"end":380.367,"text":"或者是甚至於用辨因或是指認是這些那個方式我要問的就是說副院長你認為這樣的一個改進措施真的就有辦法達到目的嗎人之常情如果你是醫生你也不愛啦"},{"start":381.363,"end":398.472,"text":"你看要不要買醫界這個圈子就這麼小啦我要去劇名那有時候稍微不慎就會影響到這個他自己醫生的一個聲望那傳得很快啊這個圈子本來就是小啊你看根據這個我看這個醫事人員的一個這個他們整個一個調查裡面啊10%的人10%的人今天要出庭有這個醫院只有10%那你鑑定報你的鑑定報怎麼太多了出庭禮物我們現在多少都沒改還是500塊"},{"start":412.229,"end":433.056,"text":"這個部分我們現在有那個研議其實一線型的司法院裡有一些那個辦法呢事實上也可以用就比較高的一個專家諮詢五千到那個一萬那我們現在也在跟現在我們也在跟那個各法院那個那個就是那個不答這一些那個事情啊那以前就是說"},{"start":434.623,"end":456.61,"text":"醫事鑑定這個部分呢 它是整個那個收費裡面包括的兩個費用 一個是實施鑑定 還有一個是那個出庭那我們現在也去宣達說出庭的這個部分呢 就先不要收 然後到庭的時候呢我們把它提高它的費用 直接給就是到庭的那個醫生 用這種方式林醫長你可不可以大膽預測一下你覺得這個措施出來以後能改善多少"},{"start":457.694,"end":479.891,"text":"我們現在正在跟他們對話,所以說3月19號的那個諮詢會裡面,那時候有做一些溝通,那有一些那個醫院他們事實上是願意的,對。這個問題我是非常擔憂,真的是非常擔憂,這個法律人法律人的思考,醫生也有醫生的思考,來本人不愛人。"},{"start":481.564,"end":502.587,"text":"好人要賣 大家在說會嫌棄去跟他好心去 到時候站在那邊被檢察官解問一下被律師解問一下 法官又問一下弄得不好的話 他的整個圈子就是太小這個還是要不斷的精進啦 因為確實要去解決問題啦那另外啊 我最主要還是要對於這整個"},{"start":503.328,"end":527.467,"text":"那個精神障礙的犯罪嫌疑人這個部分這個強制處分的部分雖然短短的時間但是也要來糾叫幾個問題我們現在鑑定流置的天數最長達兩個月那實務上到底是不是這麼長這個很大的一個疑問那你現行制度你只可以裁定去縮短卻沒有辦法去裁定撤銷那變成鑑定流置就形成一種"},{"start":528.187,"end":554.599,"text":"羈押啦 會形成一種羈押那另外呢就是說我們提到的暫行安置啊是在補充羈押的一個不足那避免精神障礙的被告對社會造成的一個風險可是如果你去把它做比較啊你說偵查階段四個月一審十五個月 二審十五個月 三審五個月可是你暫行安置每次六個月捏最長你達到五年捏那你鑑定留置的天數又沒有辦法折抵啊你可能會導致嫌疑人可能被關押更久"},{"start":555.259,"end":578.719,"text":"那當然制度的設計就是說防範整個這個被告或者犯罪嫌疑人對這個社會產生的一個衝擊的一個風險可以體會知道這個可是問題如果你稍微你看很多個案你會發現這個對被告來講或者犯罪嫌疑人來講的話會不會對他們人權上也是一種剝奪請教"},{"start":581.567,"end":583.152,"text":"副秘書長你來談這個應該是最有辦法談的"},{"start":587.213,"end":614.113,"text":"因為那個戰刑安置因為它的那個性質上是屬於保安處分當然它屬於保安處分可是那個是一個補充性是是尤其是戰刑安置的部分你的前端跟後端我還 其實這個因為時間的問題不能繼續要問下去我們這個司法精神醫院的部分你們建制什麼時候完成還有很多成效的問題這個都是整套啦但是我今天特別提出來就是說"},{"start":615.253,"end":620.872,"text":"真的是有一些個案聽起來也都很沒有道理啦很沒有道理這個"},{"start":622.748,"end":650.256,"text":"真正的刑期沒有那麼長只因為這個前面我們為了整個防範的社會風險又沒有人敢說他不對可是這個制度的一個設計對人身自由的一個剝奪這個都實質上都已經造成重大的一個衝擊應該必須要再去好好的去做研議看怎麼樣來思考更好的一個制度否則兩個之間你說叫我們怎麼取捨立法院這個地方沒有人敢跟你講說不要這樣做"},{"start":653.735,"end":661.099,"text":"社會大眾會罵可是你用個案來看的話你去把它檢視個案我就發現有些個案確實是有很多不合理的地方好不好好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時27分）謝謝召委，有請法務部次長。"],["主席：麻煩法務部徐次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，有幾個問題請教，以2022年九合一選舉為例，就法務部受理的6,858件賄選案，成功起訴的是1,353件、緩起訴102件，但是我覺得這個就怪了，我們檢舉的時候都有檢舉獎金，我們的規定是只要檢察官提起公訴以後就核發獎金四分之一，經過一審、二審有罪判決以後再給四分之一，最終有罪判決確定以後再發放剩餘的獎金，我要問的是整個獎金的發放，你們到底有沒有去關注？是不是太過落後了？"],["徐次長錫祥：跟委員報告，選舉獎金必須要非常審慎的查核，因為有時候會發生檢舉的時候同時有人檢舉，我們又要判斷先後，哪一個人對於偵查案件是有實質幫助，這個沒有審查好的話，將來我們就會承擔很大的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然，問題是我們的規定是起訴了以後要發四分之一，我懂你的意思，你是擔心鬧雙胞。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個也檢舉、那個也檢舉，但是你們也太離譜了，成功起訴和緩起訴的部分有將近1,400件，可是你核發的獎金才312件，我的意思是這個要特別謹慎，謹慎到底是哪一些人的檢舉，有因、有果，因為這個檢舉人的檢舉而導致這個案子破案，他對整個案件的偵查有協力、幫忙，這也是整個獎金發放的制度。可是問題是如果弄到最後，法律的明文規定是起訴以後要給四分之一，起訴的案件這麼多，可是你真正給的案件又不到四分之一，會不會有這個問題？"],["徐次長錫祥：因為不是每個案子都有人檢舉。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然！"],["徐次長錫祥：所以不能用起訴的量來看核發獎金的量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在就是有人檢舉，我才會跟你說，在他檢舉完之後，怎麼到現在都沒有拿到獎金？"],["徐次長錫祥：不是，這個部分因為是層級，就是從地檢署開始，層級往上呈報，我們也都儘量簡化它的流程，我們也會要求各審級增加審核人力，我們會要求審核的效率要提高。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然啦，因為……"],["徐次長錫祥：不過我們還是有原則，我們還是很慎重。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是！我的意思是人民願意冒這樣的風險，對於不法來檢舉，尤其是選舉的案件，我們政府理當按照法律的規定給他回饋，這也合理啦。"],["徐次長錫祥：是！"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外，我又來就教，這個部分可能就要請司法院，法務部請回。","針對這個鑑定制度，我要來請教副秘書長，我們整個刑事訴訟法的鑑定制度修法，2017年的司法改革國是會議對於鑑定，因為鑑定對判決影響非常大，甚至大家也在講鑑定人等於是穿白袍的法官，法官不可能所有的專業知識全部都知道，我們就必須要委託去做一個鑑定，所以鑑定人在司法審判中確實有很大的影響力，可是我看新制通過以後，就變成鑑定人的資格也更明確，也具有實務的經驗，當事人也可以去選任鑑定人，提升對等性，鑑定人的具名並揭露利益關係，鑑定人可接受交互詰問，促進公平的審理，這個都是新制的重點。但問題來了，我們現在整個醫療的鑑定陷入一個僵局，就是制度卡關，為什麼會這樣子？我相信副秘書長或者次長這邊也很清楚，醫師要去具名跟接受詰問，這個壓力真的是太大了，整個鑑定報告變成攻防的焦點，如果各位是醫生的話，你可以體會得到公親到最後變成事主，我們現在全國的法官跟檢察官送請案件以後，300件全部都被退件，所以我要就教司法院，今年在2月跟3月，還有去年的11月，你們召開這樣的諮詢會議，你們到底有沒有具體的改善措施？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢。如同委員剛剛所講的，新的刑事訴訟法規定，事實上是有它要追求的目的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對！在執行的時候，目前最主要是醫審會的部分，認為要具名這個部分有很大的阻力，所以目前司法院有提出兩個措施，一個是他們在接受機關鑑定的時候，具名是可以用隱匿的，就是用隱匿封緘的方式……"],["莊委員瑞雄：彌封？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，用彌封。還有一個，他們如果到庭來的時候，事實上也可以用遠距訊問，不揭露他們姓名的這種方式，甚至於用變音或是指認式的方式。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要問的就是，副秘書長，你認為這樣的改進措施真的就有辦法達到目的嗎？人之常情，如果你是醫生，你也不要啦！你會要嗎？醫界這個圈子就這麼小，我要去具名，有時候稍微一不慎就會影響到醫生的聲望，那傳很快啊！這個圈子本來就是小啊！我看根據醫事人員的調查裡面，有意願出庭的只有10%，鑑定報酬也太低了，出庭旅費現在是多少？都沒改，還是500塊？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們現在有研議，其實依現行司法院一些辦法，事實上也可以用比較高的專家諮詢，5,000到1萬，我們現在也在跟各法院布達這一些事情。以前在醫事鑑定這部分是整個收費裡面包括兩個費用，一個是實施鑑定，還有一個是出庭，我們現在也宣達出庭的部分先不要收，等到庭的時候，我們提高他的費用，直接給到庭的那個醫生，用這種方式。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘書長，你可不可以大膽預測一下，你覺得這個措施出來以後能改善多少？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們現在正在跟他們對話，所以3月19號的諮詢會裡面有做一些溝通，有一些醫院事實上是願意的，對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個問題我是非常擔憂。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：真的是非常擔憂，法律人有法律人的思考，醫生也有醫生的思考，大部分的人是不想要的，哪有人要？就像臺灣人說的「夯枷」，原本是出於好心，到時候還要站在那邊被檢察官詰問一下、被律師詰問一下，法官又問一下，弄得不好的話，他的整個圈子就是太小，這個還是要不斷地精進，因為確實要去解決問題。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外，我最主要還是要對於精神障礙的犯罪嫌疑人強制處罰的部分，雖然剩短短的時間，但是也要來就教幾個問題，我們現在鑑定留置的天數最長達兩個月，實務上到底是不是要這麼長？這有很大的疑問，現行制度只可以裁定縮短，卻沒有辦法裁定撤銷，變成鑑定留置就形成一種羈押。另外，我們提到的暫行安置是在補充羈押的不足，避免精神障礙的被告對社會造成風險，可是如果你去做比較，你說偵查階段4個月、一審15個月、二審15個月、三審5個月，可是暫行安置每次6個月，最長可達到5年，鑑定留置的天數又沒有辦法折抵，可能會導致嫌疑人被關押更久，當然制度的設計就是防範被告或者犯罪嫌疑人對社會產生衝擊的風險，我們可以體會、知道是這個，可是問題如果你稍微看了很多個案後，你會發現這個對被告或者犯罪嫌疑人來講，請教會不會對他們人權上也是一種剝奪，副秘書長，你來談這個應該是最有辦法談的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為暫行安置的性質上是屬於保安處分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然它屬於保安處分，可是那是一個補充性的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：尤其是暫行安置的部分，你的前端跟後端……因為時間的問題，不然應該繼續問下去，包括司法精神醫院的部分你們建置什麼時候完成，還有很多成效的問題，這個都是整套的。但是我今天特別提出來，真的是有一些個案聽起來也都很沒有道理，真正的刑期沒有那麼長，只因為前面我們為了防範可能的社會風險，又沒有人敢說他不對，可是這個制度設計對人身自由的剝奪，實質上都已經造成重大的衝擊，應該必須要再去好好地研議，看怎麼樣來思考更好的制度，否則兩者之間叫我們怎麼取捨？立法院這個地方沒有人敢跟你講不要這樣做，社會大眾會罵，可是你用個案來看的話，你去檢視個案，我就發現有些個案確實是有很多不合理的地方，好不好？謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。我們現在請翁委員代理主席。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：接下來有請吳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea341a1a02faeebd86b7280a1269ac70bedcde8218cd9f46c9a1810c634bed58f9205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:21:28 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我們再請部長各位好保定 我們現在來關心我們台灣同基層同線量的農民我想請你跟我一起追一個很悲傷"},{"start":38.203,"end":61.564,"text":"也是很多這個漁民啊碰到的這個困擾我要給你看的這個個案,來下一張圖,這個是漁民業者跟政府三叔的一個漁電共生的這個案子那我們共同來努力,現在大家都急來捕破網,我給你看,我們來看一下這個圖,請播下一張後面你看,這就是"},{"start":63.308,"end":81.191,"text":"這就是嘉義議長號稱我們全台灣第一個餘電共生的第一案在嘉義議長的台女餘電共生的案子你看喔這本來是很好的一個疑問嘛對不對你對農民我了解這疑問本來很好結果為了要推動這個餘電共生他業者進去施工 你看"},{"start":90.134,"end":117.09,"text":"竟然有人把那個基樁插滿在魚塭裡面這是第一個大問題嘛這怎麼養魚怎麼縮成第二個 上面都蓋滿了這個太陽能光電板你想三百米 三百米一定要有陽光啊文革也要有陽光啊所以就起不來那業者也試著說把那個蝦子丟進去養看看也死掉了 沒陽光啦好 那第三個問題你看看那個邊坡啊 就那個土堤"},{"start":118.09,"end":145.912,"text":"保證你看那個土堤你是農業部長你一定知道這個土啊一定是要用這個黏土嘛各個業者都去用那個砂紙的這個土電線還要通離境啊土堤怎麼會有人是傾斜的那就讓他們沖刷整個都往池塘裡面去了保證所以漁民就沒辦法本來要好好的漁溫本來要漁電共生嘛結果漁死了沒有漁電也沒有來所以漁民輸了"},{"start":147.816,"end":159.851,"text":"政府也輸了 業者也輸 山蘇我們現在有機會來補救啦我希望這個島 你去看叫你去 你這個專家去 你也沒辦法養嘛 對不對對不對現在應該已經改善了嘛已經改善了"},{"start":161.423,"end":180.848,"text":"我上禮拜還去問啊怎麼改善它有一部分如果是這個積裝在外面這個目前是可以的如果有好幾個個案都是積裝在裡面的我跟委員報告魚電共生基本上光電的覆蓋率是40%第二件事情就是魚電共生之下的養殖的魚種根據我們水市所"},{"start":181.508,"end":202.873,"text":"他有針對不同的魚種包括蝦子包括吳郭魚大概有十種的魚種是可以適合養不是說任何的魚種一定要百分之百的陽光因為它是覆蓋率是百分之四十的第三個部分是現在最重要的一個問題就是光電業者跟成豬業者跟地主之間應該有一個更好的一個互動"},{"start":203.593,"end":226.048,"text":"那農業部現在在積極的去推動就是由專業的養殖的青農來在光電的規劃的一開始就進去去協助做最適當的光電的設置規劃以前不是 以前是光電業者自己隨便蓋然後他不會養 他就養其他的專業養殖者那個都是應付的啦"},{"start":226.768,"end":242.462,"text":"那個保定你要繼續努力啦博博要紙上談兵我今天跟你談的是很具體我們非常努力去做這個不是保定保定我今天跟你講這個案子是這個案子目前在你的農業部在種材它已經被嘉義縣政府因為沒辦法養嘛"},{"start":244.54,"end":261.932,"text":"所以他已經被農業 被嘉義縣政府已經取消了他這個容許那個許可耶一直整個都停擺啊我先講一下這個案子現在就是處理那一區的保溫對啊 現在就是這個案子嘛 這個案子大可憐 你知道嗎現在業者台米是跟這個漁民啊 求償多少錢 你知道嗎"},{"start":270.698,"end":298.106,"text":"一億三千四百五十萬耶這都沒有幾次人嘛 他們一千萬要求償一億三千四百五十萬這有沒有很嚴重他說沒辦法睡覺第二個對業者來講台女的說啊我當初政府你要有做這個一定工資嘛 對不對所以我才投入這麼多錢啊所以現在變成山蘇啊我記得要求很明確第一個這個案子很嚴重這個媒體報的好多次了上禮拜還在報嘛"},{"start":299.617,"end":317.365,"text":"我請部長你們要完全掌握我下去考察的時候你們的市長是有去的啊這個案子第一個你們現在在種材莊第一個他已經是一個荒廢狀態現在打官司跟討論的過程我拜託你一件事情你們農業部不能騎公車看賣相談啦"},{"start":320.663,"end":335.114,"text":"你們要照顧農民嘛好不好盡快進行這個普破王來著急你只要把這個看要怎麼去改善對不對讓魚可以繼續養我剛才說了這四個大吹屍都是有辦法可以改善的改善完不要再求償"},{"start":337.396,"end":361.298,"text":"我跟委員報告這個案場現在我所知道的訊息是已經改善完整已經在放養泰國蝦了那至於說台泥跟那個那個成豬的農民之間的關係那這個東西我想我們會站在客觀的立場去因為農民因為這是個案不是全案個案的部分他跟台泥之間的要求然後台泥去求賞我相信會牽涉到一些"},{"start":362.459,"end":378.424,"text":"私人的事情啦那我想我們會去了解然後如果說是針對農民是有理的部分我想我們一定會站在協助的角度要去照顧我們基層這些農民啦這個不是只有這個案子這個案例已經撤回訴訟了"},{"start":379.804,"end":406.86,"text":"有撤回訴訟已經撤回訴訟那很好那你們要更進一步要協調他們最理想的就是可以讓他重新有魚嘛沒有現在已經改了要改好你們都去關心他們那事實上我實地界考察也不是只有這個案子碰到問題旁邊那個插滿集中的有幾個漁民都在陳情現在請那個部長跟那個農業部好不好你們去第一個去關心他們他們碰到問題幫他們解決第二個我知道你們這個"},{"start":408.061,"end":426.01,"text":"定型這個企業啦其實一開始只要出現這個問題他就那個企業本身定的那個內容啊移民都看不懂嘛 對不對所以你後來你有把定型化這個企業對 三方定型化企業你們要下去一不小心關心你們把這個企業齁跟他們輔導一下就是說你一定要去努力要照顧好自己的潛力好不好"},{"start":428.151,"end":449.44,"text":"我想我非常重要就是過往的那個光電的一些比較混亂的地方那我們在內部已經重新調整我們會以更積極的服務的態度去協助而不是說只提供土地的變更或者土地的容許啦那其他的是由光電業者跟農民自己來啦我想我們會用更積極的輔導作為去做"},{"start":451.521,"end":473.281,"text":"我們積極一點 共同去關心啦要不然幫他們解決問題 特別我講的定型化企業那個好好做好不好另外我問一下 剛才其實有其他立委問到了就是婚齡 管政部所在講他說剛講的是餘電共生嘛 現在是農地 農電共生這個問題好像一個婚齡嘛 超過五千名的這個農民面臨他的這個農保可能要退保"},{"start":474.626,"end":489.916,"text":"可能要退保我自己也跟這個問題 台南也有他們是響應國家的政策啊要推動光電那這個要怎麼幫這些人民我跟委員報告我覺得有一些媒體下錯標了而且是惡意的下標就是針對老農 針對洋套殺"},{"start":492.961,"end":516.106,"text":"年紀超過65歲的他農保可以不需要持有土地所以這個部分是完全百分之百沒問題超過65歲以上的老農沒有那個0.1公頃對沒有這個已經解開了所以65以上解決那65以下呢所以沒有老農養套上這些問題我必須要澄清所以65歲以下呢"},{"start":518.067,"end":529.304,"text":"65歲以下的話我們今天業務有提出來一個調整作為你如果配合國家的能源政策你提供這些土地出租以後那我們會鬆綁讓他繼續維持有農保的資格"},{"start":533.863,"end":550.198,"text":"所以董事長你為什麼要下令各個縣市在前面去做這個清查我跟議員報告龍寶的清查是一直在做的而不是特別清查然後這次會發文是因為審計部在做後台勾擊的時候他覺得有一些"},{"start":551.199,"end":578.084,"text":"一律要釐清不是說那些人就全部違規他說一律要釐清然後要我們盡速的去釐清所以我們在做這樣的一個處理那另外一個就是我想有委員要求我們說我們都放任光電的農民都還可以繼續有農保也要求我們去清查所以我們才同步去清查的這個是有史以來歷年來最大規模的農保資格清查要讓我們農民可以安心好不好"},{"start":579.004,"end":601.851,"text":"所以部長你剛講65歲以上的放心然後以下的怎麼讓他們可以放心這個要進一步清清楚楚的說明對我們已經非常清楚而且我們後續會盡快的修改相關的辦法然後最近我想我們也會發文先請縣市政府暫停暫停光電的部分光電的部分我們有一些調整暫行清查這個很重要你說會先"},{"start":602.991,"end":612.2,"text":"發文給各個縣市政府光電的農地這部分我想我們先暫時因為我們要修改他們的辦法部長我最後做三點這個結論第一個"},{"start":614.929,"end":634.809,"text":"對於過往有實際務農這個狀況可是他不管是在餘電共生或者是農電共生你要審定標準如果沒有達到的盡量往放寬的方向去走好不好保住他們這個農保的這個資格若是說這對他來講很重要重寬重寬啊第二件給你重重的第二件定型化這個企業啦你針對這個"},{"start":636.391,"end":651.442,"text":"我的了解是這個漁電共生已經有幾個版本一直在修定型化企業農地農電共生好像還沒有對不對我們沒有開沒有開那你要跟經濟部討論一下可以比照漁電共生趕快嗎沒有我農地不開"},{"start":652.996,"end":667.215,"text":"農地不開光電他們有些農地你不是已經那是變更農地變更對農地變更那是變更土地變更以後就做的對我現在你說變更完了現在就是如果有農地或者是農民他做了這個"},{"start":668.436,"end":694.986,"text":"他要去跟業者要合作做我們的國家政策我們不同意農地我們現在不同意農地那你現在有某些農地我們家是漁店然後那個溫室的溫室栽培的屋頂可以像你剛才說你們這些人當地的問題這些農民你應該是要怎麼去幫他你就應該給他一個沒有就是漁店的部分是沒問題的然後現在在屋頂型的也沒問題這個我們都可以來處理但是"},{"start":695.973,"end":724.206,"text":"那個陸地的光電設施我們目前並沒有開沒有開放嘛我是說如果有些農民碰到這個問題你要去幫他們解決啦好不好要多一點輔導多一點多一點協助好最後一個針對這個農民跟養殖這個漁民啊如果配合政府的農電共生跟漁電共生政策可是後來這個土地發生了像剛剛在講的污染啦埋了什麼廢棄物啦環境改變或者是什麼電廠設計跟施工你導致他根本就沒辦法再種農或者務農或者是養殖的時候"},{"start":725.006,"end":741.36,"text":"搞不好後來導致他連那個農民的身份都被取消嘛或者一定時間裡面都沒辦法從事欸你還說這個很可憐喔結果有時候還被業者回過頭來要去求償他我請 也算拜託啦也要求農業部這我硬要做的齁我原本說過往就是齁"},{"start":742.501,"end":759.788,"text":"地主租了以後他根本不去看現場光電就被亂蓋了現在我們希望說在蓋的規劃的時候我們這些養殖的青龍就要一起去設計然後去看他的施工會不會有影響他的汙染影響後續的養殖這個部分我們會做"},{"start":760.328,"end":785.013,"text":"你不用清農而已啦,包括老農、中農都一樣啦,所以農民都要,尤其是年紀越大了,可能他那個法律上的那個錢,他比較沒有這個經驗嘛,所以我一方面是要求,一方面是拜託農業部,一定拜託一下,一定要做這個事情,就是要多幫幫他們啦,所以包括他們可能有時候被人家求償、被餓死,你們要站在農民的這個角度,跟他們立場,多保護他們,多照顧,包括,對,保證,在剛才的案件一樣,"},{"start":787.213,"end":801.329,"text":"去幫他們協商好不好都照顧我們的農民你現在不是只有一邊化解那個酋長這個問題然後盡量如果說他們受到不利的侵害有時候錯在業者對不對業者比較強大嘛都幫幫我們這個漁民跟農民自己到該有的權利好不好這三點請具體的落實好不好好 謝謝我們張祺凱偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":252,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時21分）多謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：再請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們現在來關心臺灣最基層、最善良的農民。我想請你跟我一起追一個很悲傷、也是很多漁民碰到的困擾，我要給你看這個個案，這是漁民、業者跟政府三輸的漁電共生案子，我們共同來努力，現在還來得及補破網。","我們來看一下這個圖。部長，你看，這是嘉義義竹號稱全臺灣漁電共生的第一案，就是台泥漁電共生的案子。你看，這本來是很好的魚塭，對不對？你對農民也很瞭解。這個魚塭本來好好的，結果為了要推動漁電共生，業者進去施工，竟然有人把基樁插滿在魚塭裡面，這是第一個大問題，這怎麼養魚？怎麼收成？第二個，上面都蓋滿了太陽能光電板，像虱目魚一定要陽光，文蛤也要陽光，所以就養不活，業者也試著把蝦子丟進去養看看，也死掉了，因為沒有陽光。第三個問題是，部長，你看看那個邊坡、那個土堤，你是農業部部長，你一定知道，這個土一定要用黏土，結果業者竟然用沙質的土。第四個，最離譜的是，怎麼會有土堤是傾斜的？遇到下雨不就整個沖刷都往池塘裡面去了？部長，所以一個好好的魚塭，本來要漁電共生，結果魚死了、沒有魚，電也沒有來，所以漁民輸了，政府輸了，業者也輸了，三輸，我們有機會要來補救。請你看這張圖，叫你這個專家去，你也沒辦法養，對不對？對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：現在應該已經改善了嘛？"],["莊司長老達：已經改善了。"],["張委員啓楷：我上禮拜還去問，什麼改善？如果有一部分的基樁在外面，目前是可以的，但是有好幾個個案都是基樁在裡面的。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，漁電共生基本上光電的覆蓋率是40%。第二件事情就是，漁電共生之下養殖的魚種，根據我們水試所針對不同魚種的試驗結果，包括蝦子、吳郭魚，大概有10種魚種適合養，不是任何魚種一定要100%的陽光，因為它的覆蓋率是40%。第三個部分，現在最重要的問題就是光電業者、承租業者跟地主之間應該有一個更好的互動，農業部現在在積極地推動由專業養殖的青農，在光電規劃的一開始，就進去協助做最適當光電的設置規劃，以前不是這樣，以前是光電業者自己隨便蓋，他不會養，就請其他的專業養殖者，那個都是應付的啦。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你要繼續努力，不要紙上談兵，我今天跟你談的是很具體……"],["陳部長駿季：我們非常努力地去做這個。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有、沒有，聽我講，部長，我今天跟你講的這個案子目前在你農業部在仲裁，因為沒辦法養，所以它已經被嘉義縣政府取消農業設施容許使用許可，它是整個都停擺了，我今天問你……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：我先講一下，這個案子……"],["陳部長駿季：台泥的部分，6區裡面只有1區有問題，現在就是處理那一區的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：對，現在這個案子多可憐，你知道嗎？現在業者、台泥跟漁民求償多少錢，你知道嗎？1億3,450萬耶！漁民一輩子也賺不到1,000萬，卻被求償1億3,450萬，這有沒有很嚴重？他都沒辦法睡覺。第二個，對業者來講，台泥有說當初政府要他們做漁電共生，所以他們才投入這麼多錢，結果現在變成三輸。","我今天的要求很明確：第一個，這個案子很嚴重，媒體報導好多次了，上個禮拜還在報導，我請部長要完全掌握，我下去……"],["陳部長駿季：我們隨時關切這個議案。"],["張委員啓楷：對，部長，我下去考察的時候，你們的次長就有去了。第一個，這個案子現在在仲裁中；第二個，它已經是一個荒廢狀態，在打官司跟討論的過程。我拜託你一件事情，你們農業部不能「徛懸山看馬相踢」，你們要照顧農民，好不好？要儘快進行協商，補破網還來得及，只要看看怎麼去改善，讓魚可以繼續養。我剛才跟你說了，這4個大缺失都是有辦法可以改善的，改善完，不要再求償，老實講，這會逼死漁民！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在我所知道的訊息是這個案場改善完成，已經在放養泰國蝦了。至於台泥跟承租農民之間的關係，我們會站在客觀的立場去處理，因為這是個案，不是通案。個案的部分，基於他跟台泥之間的要求，台泥去求償，我相信會牽涉到一些私人的事情，我們會去瞭解，針對農民有理的部分，我們一定會站在協助的角度。"],["張委員啓楷：對，要多照顧我們基層的農民，不是只有這個案子……"],["陳部長駿季：台泥已經撤回訴訟了。"],["張委員啓楷：有撤回訴訟？"],["陳部長駿季：已經撤回訴訟。"],["張委員啓楷：那很好！你們要更進一步協調好，最理想的就是可以讓它重新有魚嘛，有電……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在就已經改了，已經改善了。"],["張委員啓楷：要改好，你們要去多關心他們，事實上，我實地去考察，也不是只有這個案子碰到問題，旁邊插滿基樁的，有幾個漁民都在陳情，現在請部長跟農業部：第一個，去關心他們，他們碰到問題，幫他們解決；第二個，我知道你們這個定型化契約，其實一開始為什麼會發生這麼多問題？就是因為對契約本身訂的內容，漁民都看不懂，對不對？所以後來你們有訂了一個定型化契約去輔導他……"],["陳部長駿季：對，三方定型化契約。"],["張委員啓楷：對，你們要下去，不只是關心，你們還要把這個契約跟他們輔導一下，一定要去落實，讓他們照顧好自己的權益，好不好？這件事情很重要喔！"],["陳部長駿季：非常重要的就是過往光電比較混亂的地方，我們在內部已經重新調整，我們會以更積極服務的態度去協助，而不是只提供土地的變更或者土地的容許，其他的是由光電業者跟農民自己來，我們會用更積極的輔導作為去做。"],["張委員啓楷：積極一點，多去關心，一方面幫他們解決問題，特別是我講的定型化契約的部分要好好做，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，我問一下，剛才其實有其他立委問到了，就是雲林縣政府出來說，剛剛講的是漁電共生，現在是農電共生的問題，光是一個雲林，就有超過5,000名農民面臨農保可能要被退保，我們嘉義也遇到這個問題，臺南也有，他們是響應國家的政策推動光電，要怎麼幫這些農民？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我覺得有一些媒體下錯標了，而且是惡意地下標，就是針對老農、針對養套殺，事實上年紀超過65歲的農民投保農保可以不需要持有土地，所以這個部分是完全百分之百沒問題，然後現在清查的……"],["張委員啓楷：來，我們讓全國農民知道，超過65歲以上的老農沒有0.1公頃農地的限制。"],["陳部長駿季：對，沒有，這個已經解開了……"],["張委員啓楷：所以65歲以上解決，那65歲以下呢？"],["陳部長駿季：所以沒有老農「養套殺」這些問題，我必須要慎重澄清……"],["張委員啓楷：所以65歲以下呢？"],["陳部長駿季：65歲以下的話，我們今天業務報告有提出一個調整作為，如果配合國家的能源政策提供土地出租以後，那我們會鬆綁，讓他繼續維持有農保的資格。"],["張委員啓楷：所以，你當初為什麼要下令各個縣市去做這個清查？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農保的清查是一直在做的，而不是特別清查。這一次會發文是因為審計部在做後臺勾稽的時候，它覺得有一些疑慮要釐清，不是說那些人都全部違規。它說有些疑慮要我們儘速釐清，所以我們做這樣的處理。另外一個，有委員跟我們說，我們都放任光電的農民還可以繼續有農保，也要求我們去清查，所以我們才同步去清查的。"],["張委員啓楷：這個是有史以來，歷年來最大規模的農保資格清查，要讓我們農民可以安心，好不好？所以部長你剛剛講……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們一定是……"],["張委員啓楷：65歲以上的放心，65歲以下的怎麼讓他們可以放心？要進一步清清楚楚的說明。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們已經非常清楚，而且我們後續會儘快修改相關的辦法，最近我們也會發文先請縣市政府暫停光電的部分，光電的部分我們有一些調整……"],["張委員啓楷：這個很重要，你說會先發文給各個縣市政府。"],["陳部長駿季：對，光電的部分喔！"],["張委員啓楷：農地這個部分會先暫停。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個部分因為我們要修改相關的辦法。"],["張委員啓楷：好，部長，我最後做三點結論：第一個，對於過往有實際務農狀況，可是不管是在漁電共生或農電共生，審定標準如果沒有達到的，儘量往放寬的方向去走，好不好？保住農保的資格，老實說這個對他們來說很重要，從寬、從寬；第二個，最重要的就是定型化契約，我的了解是漁電共生已經有幾個版本一直在修定型化契約了，農電共生好像還沒有，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有開。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有開，那你要跟經濟部討論一下，可以比照漁電共生一樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，農地不開。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：農地不開光電。"],["張委員啓楷：他們有些農地不是已經都在做太陽能，怎麼沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：那是變更，農地變更。"],["張委員啓楷：農地變更。"],["陳部長駿季：那是土地變更以後去做的。"],["張委員啓楷：你是說變更完？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：現在是如果有農地或農民，他要去跟業者合作，響應國家政策。"],["陳部長駿季：我們不同意，農地我們現在不同意。"],["張委員啓楷：農地？那你現在有哪些同意？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是漁電，溫室栽培的屋頂可以。"],["張委員啓楷：像剛剛說的雲林縣這些人遇到了問題，這些農民你應該要怎麼去幫他？應該給他一個……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，漁電的部分是沒問題的，現在屋頂型的也沒問題，這個我們都可以來處理，但是陸地的光電設施，我們目前並沒有開。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有開放，我是說如果有些農民碰到這個問題，你要去幫他們解決，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來協助。"],["張委員啓楷：多一點輔導、多一點協助。","最後一個，針對農民跟養殖漁民，如果配合政府的農電共生跟漁電共生政策，可是後來土地發生了，像剛剛講的污染、埋了什麼廢棄物、環境改變或電廠設計跟施工，導致他根本就沒辦法再種農、務農或養殖的時候，搞不好後來導致他連農民身分都被取消，或者一定時間裡面都沒辦法從事，老實說這也很可憐，結果有時候業者還回過頭向他求償，我請……也算拜託啦，也要求農業部……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這是我應該做的。跟委員報告，過往就是地主租了之後，他根本不去看現場，光電就在那邊亂蓋了。現在我們希望在規劃的時候，這些養殖的青農就要一起去設計，然後去看施工會不會有污染影響後續的養殖，這個部分我們會做。"],["張委員啓楷：不只青農而已，包括老農、中農都一樣啦！所有農民都要……"],["陳部長駿季：只要是從事養殖的農民。"],["張委員啓楷：尤其是年紀越大的，可能在法律上以前他比較沒有這個經驗。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來努力。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我一方面是要求、一方面是拜託農業部，拜託一定要做到這件事，就是要多幫幫他們，包括他們可能有時候被業者求償，你們要站在農民的角度跟立場多保護他們、多照顧……"],["陳部長駿季：不用你拜託，我們就會做了……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，就跟剛剛那個案子一樣，去幫他們協商，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：多照顧我們的農民，你現在不只有……一定要化解那個求償的問題，如果他們受到不利的侵害，有時候錯在業者，業者比較強大嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來協助。"],["張委員啓楷：多幫幫漁民跟農民自己該有的權利，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好，這三點請具體的落實，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","非常感謝，經濟委員會大家都非常以農為主，好好的討論政策，我們現在休息，謝謝。","休息（10時35分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席（賴委員瑞隆代）：我們繼續開會。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]]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主席我們請司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長委員好"},{"start":12.356,"end":32.418,"text":"副議長好,有關於今天的議程,有關刑事訴訟法的部分修正條文我想這些部分,事實上大家有滿高度的共識,我相信沒有什麼爭議今天利用這個機會,我就來跟我們司法院來探討幾個我個人比較關心的問題"},{"start":34.522,"end":52.058,"text":"首先我們在2017年8月的四改國事會議裡面,我們那時候有關於完善行事正路的保管制度在2017年8月,四改國事會議就做成這樣子的決議2017年到現在,2025,經過這麼多年"},{"start":57.489,"end":82.043,"text":"我想了解說我們有關於這個完善刑事證物的保管制度我們到底做了什麼做了什麼樣的制度上面的變革不要講2017年我們從2020年我們監察院監察院他就有在109年度提出這個通案性的案件調查報告也同樣提及有關我們目前刑事案件的這些賬物證物的"},{"start":84.524,"end":105.094,"text":"的這些檔卷的保管的這個調查研究報告這裡面這個就各機關就這些證物扣押物的這些保管處所他的規定他的列管字號這些相關的這個對於這樣子目前這些證物"},{"start":106.397,"end":126.599,"text":"照顧他的這些運送包括他的運送包括他的勾基的成本等等是不是能夠這個這個減少這樣證物滅失他掉包的風險還有有助於確保證物的統一性這些部分我們目前我們就從這個"},{"start":129.345,"end":154.026,"text":"2020年監察院調查報告到現在也是四年多的時間這四年多的時間我們通盤監牢的情形是不是請副名長報告一下好 謝謝委員垂詢確實委員問的這問題是一個很重要的問題因為在偵查中就是這些髒證物它是屬於檢察機關他們所保管那到了起訴之後依規定是要送到院方來"},{"start":154.927,"end":176.397,"text":"那所以就是相關的這些規定法院端也都有完善相關的那些制度什麼樣的完善制度說來參考看看我們分別就是它是在幾個法律底下規定的一個是台灣高等法院及所屬各法院的章政務的管理要點"},{"start":177.617,"end":202.966,"text":"那還有一個是這一個第三人保管那個扣押物的那個管理要點還有一個是那個法院處理那個扣押物的那個陰形注意事項這裡頭呢也都有就是把這些那個相關的就是說他怎麼去那個列冊啊那重要的這些那個證物他又有一些那個特別的一些那個比較嚴格的一些程序這個包括司法國會一直到這個監察院的報告那時候都認為應該要要這個"},{"start":207.56,"end":226.454,"text":"建立一個國家級的專業的單一的政務保管機關這樣子的方向我們有沒有在研擬這樣的方向國家級的專業的單一的政務保管機關而不是像現在用這個管理要點下去下去這個簡單的由這個"},{"start":231.638,"end":255.07,"text":"法官或書記官來保管證物委員好 那有關這個部分我們有跟這個正在跟行政院這邊在修刑事訴訟法的140條這個部分就是有關證物 章證物保管的相關問題那我們有也有參加研議這個所研修經濟證證物監管制度的有12次我們開到第12次了 上個禮拜3月24號才剛開過這個過程應該你們有你們可能開過很多次會那我只問"},{"start":262.714,"end":276.109,"text":"這個其他你們可能開過很多智慧希望能夠完善這個制度但是我再問一個問題就是說有關於各界建議認為應該應該要建立國家級專業單一的政務保險機關我們有沒有這樣的方向"},{"start":277.008,"end":302.973,"text":"沒有到目前為止沒有目前在研議的過程中還沒有出現在沒有是只讓我們會再把委員意見我現在講的這些都還是傳統的證物跟賬物我們在這個去年的7月16號我們通過通過這個這個有關於強特殊強制處分的相關規定也就是所謂科技偵查的這些現在科技新型態的這些證據證物這個"},{"start":307.659,"end":334.653,"text":"他的未來他有可能有可能這個被篡改被銷毀在過程中這個影響他這個證據的統一性的可能性更大我們連傳統的證物的目前的這些相關的這些保管制度我們都還沒有完善的建立目前的這些有關科技偵查特殊強制手段他所得的這些資料我們的相關保管我們現在有什麼樣的規定"},{"start":337.796,"end":345.702,"text":"向委員報告因為就是施行這個特殊的強制處分是由偵查機關或者是偵查輔助機關所發動的所以說他取得這些資料是屬於偵查資料偵查之後你進入法院"},{"start":358.51,"end":376.409,"text":"起訴之後他就這些證物一樣跟卷宗一併就交給你們法院啊是 是不是是交給法院之後我在講的是進入審判程序之後由法院來保管這些相關的科技偵查的資料目前有建立什麼樣的制度嗎"},{"start":379.973,"end":401.563,"text":"跟委員報告一下關於數位證據的部分我們透過司法聯盟鏈這個部分讓大家上網再用一個透過所謂的加密這種方式或是賀許值的這種部分來確認它的同一性這部分這個司法聯盟鏈已經跟法務部我們去年修法的這個刑事訴訟法第153條第153之10條裡面的這個第5項有授權"},{"start":408.206,"end":432.02,"text":"授權這個這個依本章實施調查方式所得資料的程序管理及銷毀銷毀陳報通知等等這些的相關辦法由司法院會同行政院定制由這個第五項之後授權之後我們這個這個司法院訂定的刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分執行辦法對不對"},{"start":433.308,"end":458.066,"text":"是不是這個是我講的你們所謂的法律依據在這裡但是你們法律依據裡面的你們這個強制處分執行辦法裡面的特殊強制處分執行辦法裡面的這個第13條第13條第4項裡面有提到前項科技設備所屬公司部門或其他機關應訂定有關設備使用人員之資格限制"},{"start":459.006,"end":482.532,"text":"領用器材之內容工作日誌清澈使用期間相關規定這些東西這些相關的機制目前建立了沒有目前我們有請他們做相關的所以就是還沒有吧我們的執行辦法已經發下去那各單位也配合在執行辦法發案我在這講執行辦法裡面第13條第4項所規定的這些相關規定你們做了沒有"},{"start":486.397,"end":512.125,"text":"這些各機關應該 其他機關應該訂定關於設備使用人員資格限制包括這個領用的器材內容工作日誌 還有你這個這個使用期間等相關規定這些規定 規定了沒有這個是由各執行機關規定那你們有沒有看上次在刑事警察局那邊他們說有關相關的規定他們都已經建置完畢了"},{"start":513.703,"end":527.715,"text":"是刑事警察局的部分啦其他的單位部分我們會繼續再追蹤其他最重要的是我現在要講的就是說我們現在目前的這個刑事證物的保管制度從傳統的這些證據保管一直到"},{"start":528.744,"end":541.389,"text":"現在這些特殊強制處分的這些科技的這些證物這些目前我們整個保管的制度事實上是大有問題啦那事實上也很多學這各方都認為說有關這些相關的證物應該要建立"},{"start":545.356,"end":571.841,"text":"一個單一的國家專業的國家的證據的這個保存的機關事實上從過去的許多案例我們看到太多太多的案例司法案例他就是因為這個整個證據證據的過程他的滅屍那造成這個判決上面的爭議這個從過去到現在一直是這樣所以司改國是會司改國是會不是吃飽沒事幹"},{"start":574.288,"end":579.144,"text":"來對我們的這個目前的這些證據相關的保管的這些措施提出建言"},{"start":580.478,"end":606.437,"text":"那我希望這個部分齁還是要把它法治化啦要把這個我們的刑事證物的這些保管制度齁還是應該要把它法治化啦齁那我希望說司法院是不是能夠在三個月裡面來邀集相關的機關齁包括這個民間團體來針對我國證物保存跟這個監管制度齁我們延長整個目前法治的檢討的會議好不好司法院能不能這樣做三個月內"},{"start":607.489,"end":620.384,"text":"我們會依委員的指示辦理那剛才我們前面委員的質詢裡面也提到有關於這個國安目前的這些國安案件的相關的這些我知道啦 目前我們"},{"start":621.465,"end":645.591,"text":"有我們的法院有這個九個地方法院有設置專庭國安專庭那有19個19所法院有設立這個專股還有9個專庭19個專股那我們相關的這些這些我調你們的資料目前這些"},{"start":646.676,"end":668.003,"text":"這些專庭專股的這些法官他們也必須也過去我們也從109年度開始我們就已經辦理相關的這些國家安全的研習會每年好像每年109 110每一年都有辦理國家安全的研習會那我看到這個我們這個表上面我們目前的參與人數從109年20人 110年15人111年45人參與"},{"start":676.135,"end":695.205,"text":"112年12人參與整個加起來總計從109年到114年總計有167個人參與這167個人參與是不是有沒有重複的參與就是說我每一年都報名或者是說我可能報名了兩次或三次還是說我們現在目前看到167人次"},{"start":698.203,"end":725.558,"text":"我看到的是人次 就每一年辦理下來的人次那究竟這個參與的狀況目前有曾經參與過我們國家安全研習會的人數有沒有統計有沒有重複這個情形我們現在這個統計數上面是沒有辦法這個看不出來我就是因為看不出來我才問你那這個我們如果委員需要的話我們會進一步再去抓這個資料那這裡面也看到包括111年度"},{"start":727.47,"end":739.729,"text":"從突然從前一年度15人增加到45人那114就是今年度也突然從去年44人增加到將近一倍的79人那這是有沒有什麼特別的"},{"start":741.171,"end":767.591,"text":"了解有什麼特別的因素這個是因為司法院深深體會到說這個國安的那個案件法官一定需要那個專業所以說我們也就是大力的去那個宣達那在今年呢就是說我們除了今年本來是預定只有三月這個梯次可是我們後來又增加了一個設計了一個完全不同的課程在六月又多增加了一個班不好意思我時間已經超過一段時間了那我最後我是希望"},{"start":768.871,"end":789.386,"text":"有關我們每一年度辦理這個研習法官最後我們都有一個學員的意見調查意見的調查統計都有這裡面大家反映出來有關學員的意見調查他們都反映出在實際審理國安案件的時候有關於目前的實地教學參訪"},{"start":791.018,"end":795.36,"text":"他們認為有高度的參考價值有關實地的教學參訪這個部分我們是不是能夠增加每年度我們辦理的實地教學參訪的次數"},{"start":807.285,"end":836.356,"text":"因為根據學員的回饋認為說這些實地教學參訪是對他們的這個判決是非常有幫助的那我們是不是增加能夠有考慮來增加這個實地教學參訪的次數那來我們也同時我也希望說我們這個辦理之後我們能夠評估每一次這個實地教學的這些學習成果好不好是我希望說這個部分我希望我們這個司法院來考慮不好意思再用大家的時間"},{"start":837.237,"end":839.714,"text":"好 謝謝沈委員 那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時13分）主席，請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：副秘書長好。今天的議程是有關刑事訴訟法的部分修正條文，我想這些部分事實上大家有蠻高度的共識，我相信沒有什麼爭議。今天利用這個機會，我就跟司法院來探討幾個我個人比較關心的問題。","首先，在2017年8月的司改國是會議裡面，那時候就做成有關完善刑事證物的保管制度決議，2017年到現在2025年，經過這麼多年，我想了解有關完善刑事證物的保管制度，到底做了什麼樣制度上的變革？不要講2017年，從2020年監察院109年度的通案性案件調查報告也同樣提及目前刑事案件贓物、證物及檔卷的保管。各機關就這些證物、扣押物的保管處所、它的規定、列管字號等相關的，目前對於這些證物、贓物的運送及勾稽成本等等，是不是能夠減少證物滅失、調包的風險，有助於確保證物的同一性？從2020年監察院作成調查報告到現在四年多的時間，是不是請副秘書長報告一下通盤檢討的情形？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢。確實委員問的這個問題是一個很重要的問題，因為在偵查中的贓、證物屬於檢察機關所保管，起訴之後依規定要送到院方，所以依據相關規定，法院端也都有完善的制度。"],["沈委員發惠：什麼樣的完善制度？說來參考看看。"],["王副秘書長梅英：它是分別在幾個法律底下規定的，一個是臺灣高等法院暨所屬各級法院贓證物品管理要點、第三人保管扣押物管理要點，還有一個是法院處理扣押物應行注意事項，這裡頭都有相關的，包括怎麼列冊，重要的證物又有一些比較嚴謹的程序……"],["沈委員發惠：從司法國是會議一直到監察院的報告，都認為應該要建立一個國家級、專業、單一的證物保管機關。你們有沒有在研擬這樣的方向？國家級、專業、單一的證物保管機關，而不是像現在用管理要點，簡單的由法官或書記官來保管證物。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。有關這個部分，我們正在跟行政院修刑事訴訟法第一百四十條，就是贓證物保管的相關問題。我們也有研修精進證物監管制度，已經開到第12次會議，3月24號才剛開過。我們……"],["沈委員發惠：好，我知道，這個過程你們可能開過很多次會。"],["李廳長釱任：對，我們跟行政院正在配合。"],["沈委員發惠：你們可能開過很多次會，希望能夠完善這個制度，但是我現在問一個問題，就是有關各界認為應該要建立國家級、專業、單一的證物保管機關，你們有沒有這樣的方向？沒有？到目前為止沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：目前在研議的過程中還沒有出現這樣的……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：是，我們會再把委員的意見列入參考。"],["沈委員發惠：我現在講的這些都還是傳統的證物跟贓物，我們在去年7月16號通過關於特殊強制處分的相關規定，也就是所謂科技偵查，現在科技新型態的這些證據、證物未來有可能有被篡改、被銷毀，在過程中影響證據同一性的可能性更大。目前我們連傳統證物的保管制度都還沒有完善的建立，針對這些科技偵查、特殊強制處分所得的資料，現在有什麼樣相關保管的規定？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為施行特殊強制處分是由偵查機關或者是偵查輔助機關所發動的，所以取得的這些資料屬於偵查資料……"],["沈委員發惠：偵查、起訴之後，這些證物跟卷宗一樣一併就交給法院，是不是？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：交給法院之後……我再講一次，進入審判程序之後，由法院來保管這些相關的科技偵查資料，目前有建立什麼樣的制度嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：關於數位證據的部分，我們透過司法聯盟鏈，讓大家上網透過所謂的加密方式或是hash值來確認它的同一性。這部分司法聯盟鏈已經跟法務部調查局……"],["沈委員發惠：去年修正的刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十第五項有授權，其規定「依本章實施調查之方式、所得資料之保存、管理及銷燬、陳報、通知、救濟、監督及其他相關事項之辦法，由司法院會同行政院定之。」有第五項的授權之後，司法院訂定了「刑事訴訟特殊強制處分執行辦法」，對不對？是不是？"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個就是我講的，你們所謂的法律依據在這裡，但是「刑事訴訟特殊強制處分執行辦法」第十三條第四項有提到「前項科技設備所屬公私部門或其他機關，應訂定有關設備使用人員之資格限制、領用之器材內容、工作日誌清冊及使用期間等規定，送交指示執行機關或囑託機關備查。」請問這些相關的機制目前建立了沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：目前我們有請他們做相關的……"],["沈委員發惠：所以就是還沒有嘛？"],["李廳長釱任：我們的執行辦法已經發下去，各單位也配合在實施。"],["沈委員發惠：我現在講的就是執行辦法第十三條第四項所規定的這些相關規定，你們做了沒有？其他機關應訂定關於設備使用人員之資格限制，包括領用之器材內容、工作日誌及使用期間等相關規定，這些規定規定了沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：這個是由各執行機關……"],["沈委員發惠：規定了沒有？你們有沒有看？"],["李廳長釱任：上次刑事警察局提到有關相關的規定，他們都已經建置完畢了。"],["沈委員發惠：是刑事警察局的部分？"],["李廳長釱任：對，刑事警察局的部分，其他單位的部分，我們會繼續再追蹤。"],["沈委員發惠：最重要的是，目前的刑事證物保管制度，從傳統的證據保管一直到現在特殊強制處分的這些科技證物，事實上，我們目前的保管制度是大有問題。各方都認為這些相關的證物應該要建立一個單一專業的國家證據保存機關。事實上，從過去的許多案例，我們看到太多太多的司法案例就是因為整個證據保管過程的滅失，造成判決上面的爭議，從過去到現在一直是這樣。所以司改國是會議不是吃飽沒事幹，才針對目前這些相關的證據保管措施提出建言，我希望這個部分還是要把它法制化，還是要把刑事證物保管制度法制化，司法院是不是能夠在三個月裡面邀集相關機關，包括民間團體，針對我國證物保存和監管制度研商目前法制的檢討會議，好不好？司法院能不能這樣做，三個月內？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們會依委員的指示辦理。"],["沈委員發惠：好。剛才前面委員的質詢裡面也提到有關於目前國安案件的相關議題，我知道目前有9個地方法院設置國安專庭，有19所法院設立專股，現在有9個專庭、19個專股，根據你們的資料，針對這些專庭、專股的法官，過去從109年度開始就已經辦理相關的國家安全研習會，109年、110年每一年都有辦理國家安全研習會，我從這個表上面看到目前的參與人數是109年20人、110年15人、111年45人參與、112年12人參與，從109年到114年總計有167人參與，這167人中有沒有重複參與，也就是他每一年都報名或是可能報名2次、3次？我目前看到的是167人次，這是每一年辦理下來的人次，這個參與的狀況究竟如何，目前有曾經參與過國家安全研習會的人數有沒有統計？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有沒有重複的情形，現在這個統計數上面是沒有辦法呈現。"],["沈委員發惠：這個看不出來。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，看不出來。"],["沈委員發惠：就是因為看不出來，我才問你。"],["王副秘書長梅英：如果委員需要的話，我們會進一步再去抓這個資料。"],["沈委員發惠：我看到111年度突然從前一年度15人增加到45人，今（114）年度也突然從去年的44人增加將近一倍、79人，就你們瞭解，有沒有什麼特別的因素？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這是因為司法院也深深體會到國安案件，法官一定需要那個專業，所以我們也大力地去宣達，在今年本來預定只有3月這一個梯次，可是我們後來又設計了一個完全不同的課程，在6月又多增加了一個班。"],["沈委員發惠：好，不好意思，我的時間已經超過一段時間。最後，有關每一年度辦理的法官研習，最後都有學員的意見調查統計，學員的意見調查都反映出在實際審理國安案件的時候，有關於目前的實地教學參訪，他們認為有高度的參考價值，我們是不是能夠增加每年度辦理的實地教學參訪的次數？根據學員的回饋，他們都認為這些實地教學參訪對他們的判決是非常有幫助的，我們是不是能夠考慮增加實地教學參訪的次數？同時我也希望辦理之後，能夠評估每次實地教學的學習成果，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["沈委員發惠：我希望司法院來考慮，不好意思占用大家的時間。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34048ce8439054e111280a1269ac70bedcde8218cd9f46c9a1f9bbaa56767decb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:10:52 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我們現在還不是我們所想即便未來我們要針對他的對自然人的消費類似消費金融的業務我們才會納管只有這部分是沒有剛剛委員有提到就是說對於這個所謂的影子銀行的問題就是說他今天如果說借然後去這個我們現在已經也"},{"start":234.554,"end":249.95,"text":"也進行納管我想委員會有注意到我們去年12月13號我們又訂了一個頒個函針對銀行跟融資租賃公司我們有四項措施嘛請問有個就會納入到央行的信用管制裡面說他真的是在做跟房地產有關的部分"},{"start":251.492,"end":269.15,"text":"對這部分再來就是說因為中租這家公司應該是我們的上市公司上市公司有他一定資訊揭露的這些的規定這部分我們會請齊局來研究一下這部分的話要怎麼揭露是不是有什麼地方是有什麼可以再來強化就按照我們上市貴公司的方式來處理這樣"},{"start":270.051,"end":299.651,"text":"所以主委其實不管是本席還是郭公文委員還是那個王世堅委員其實我們都一直就是就有不同的一個執行方式還是文字上的一個就是公文的一個來訪我們希望就是說你要強力的去約束他有沒有機會就是說甚至他簽據這個關切的那個切結書這個其實你都有回應我們那當然就是說大家其實也是一直"},{"start":300.812,"end":321.71,"text":"積極的投入一些比較合法公平的一個方式來監督這個主任公司我們都擔心他的年代的一個金流是不是有機會就是穿透式的一個管理因為我覺得如果就是說雖然他是經濟部的可是你這邊其實也有一些霹靂的手法"},{"start":323.191,"end":340.122,"text":"我不知道主委你怎麼看這些事這點是我們現在正在做的方式剛剛提到因為我們如果是任何跟銀行金融機構貸款的部分貸後管理的部分我們會來做一些強化就像我剛剛跟委員報告我們對銀行有信用管制"},{"start":341.202,"end":360.075,"text":"當然如果他透過某個管道繞過一樣做這件事情我們還是要納入這個再來他如果跟銀行講說這個貸款是要做什麼結果不做這個事情的話那銀行就要開始採取他的作為這我們會來好好的要求銀行主委你會不會用租賃專法透過金保法來規範"},{"start":361.856,"end":376.927,"text":"會不會?我們現在已經在按照我們的時程應該我們這部的正式納管應該是在我們的法規如果預告到6月30號結束然後施行以後給予幾個月的那個緩衝期我們就會開始"},{"start":378.348,"end":393.048,"text":"可是你現在的進度就是在1月份的時候你金管會你就是有一個這樣的一個公告出來了那到現在3月份的時候你又那個是不是就是這個進度有一點慢啊"},{"start":394.449,"end":410.457,"text":"這個跟委員報告倒沒有慢我們的速度非常快因為這本來就一個法制作業就一定要這樣實成還有就是說融資租賃公司他們本身要調整他的作業因為他本質上過去沒有納管很多的方式他必須要重做而且我們在執法裡面會新加入很多新的規定"},{"start":411.497,"end":434.644,"text":"請他們來遵守我想我們一再的關心就是不希望就是說在央行執行這個信用管制的時候我們在打壓這個炒房的情況之下還有很多的一個其他的一個那個資金的一個漏洞可以流入到房市在請求儘管會在一個業內提供以下的一個書面報告這個不管是那個國營對那個租賃那個融資業"},{"start":436.345,"end":438.647,"text":"要跟主委來溝通這個打炸這個打炸其實是我們國內非常"},{"start":453.78,"end":482.139,"text":"那個嚴肅的一個議題也是非常嚴重的一個議題就是光是昨天一天有612件昨天剛好是最多的那這個金額那個達到3億那我們有看到就是說從2024年的8月這個是最高峰138億可是我沒有看到你們打詐的一個成果從到那個就是2025年的那個2月那已經掉到61億"},{"start":483.78,"end":510.161,"text":"那我們國內的銀行 國內的銀行怎麼樣協助就是說打仗是不是有一個比較好的方式呢其實各位委員報告我們的銀行金融機構真的是盡全力在做這件事情我們也是對它做要求像各位委員報告最近我們訂了一個叫責任地圖這實際上是一個非常非常重要的措施因為我們要求每家銀行它自己要有打仗主管我們每個月監控他們兩個指標"},{"start":511.702,"end":534.112,"text":"這個指標就是他的警示帳戶的這些指標如果做不好的話我們就一家一家盯我想這些事情除了這個以外還有就是我們也成立了那個金融科技聯盟專門針對這個東西進行所謂的科技打炸還有我們還有其實我們做非常非常多事情只是說很多事情我們不方便對外揭露我們希望能夠有效的控制住他利用這個帳戶做不法的"},{"start":534.632,"end":563.291,"text":"其實我們知道我們知道就是說在那個國企的一個銀行裡頭就是說開戶的那個KYC其實也做到非常嚴格甚至我們在網路上我們有拉到了一個非常有趣的一個銀行那個銀行之言裡頭他講的就是說他每天的一個那個工作的一個日記報告我放一下這個實在是我們看得出來銀行銀行之言的一個無奈"},{"start":565.267,"end":594.58,"text":"大聲一點喔為什麼舉高不下逐年成長我沒事找事做嗎我吃飽太閒嗎回答我整天被人靠杯你回答我我你們這些說不會被騙的人回答我Look at my eyesTell me whyWhy baby why被詐騙也靠杯認真防詐也不爽我是不是按照流程關懷客戶你以為會喜歡是不是啊"},{"start":596.52,"end":619.99,"text":"蓋到行員身上來了那我再問你投資群組保證獲利天底下有這麼好康的是嗎給你先嚐嚐當今就是我們很多銀行的職員的一個無奈就是問太多了就被講說就被客戶講說多管閒事不問的話又是戶心人事所以我想就是說希望就是銀行在這個"},{"start":621.31,"end":649.286,"text":"這個阻攔那個詐騙的過程裡頭可以更靈活因為事實上就是說平衡安全的一個考量跟隱私的一個尊重那我們希望就是金管會嚴厲提供銀行這個櫃員相關的SOP的一個演練的一個培訓當然就是說像主委你講你們做了出了很大的一個力氣可是事實上可以講不可以講的我們都知道你們在努力那我們也希望就是說可以把一些手法更精進"},{"start":650.407,"end":668.025,"text":"那研擬更好的一個獎勵方式獎勵方式非常的重要我覺得這個蘿蔔跟棍子一起酸管齊下的時候應該可以看到一個很好的成效我們有看到這個儀表板一直都在下來啦一直都在下來啦所以在這邊要謝謝委員給我這個機會我在這邊也趁這個機會跟所有我們第一線"},{"start":673.77,"end":695.751,"text":"進行關懷客戶的行員們真的非常的感謝我也會要求我們金融機構要全力對他們支持剛剛那行員的短片我覺得是很多行員的心聲因為他們正常是在做金融業務的服務但是主詐成為他們日常非常重要的一個工作那我也希望社會給他們多多的支持跟體諒因為我們去年呢我們主詐就是單單就是100億了"},{"start":697.632,"end":713.601,"text":"就是單單攔下一百億我想這部分真的要非常感謝我們銀行的第一線當然我應該指證說我們有優化我們的方法讓客戶感覺到更好的方式我覺得我們會來努力主委重點是獎勵的方式那當然我們會來研究獎勵的方式"},{"start":714.862,"end":724.372,"text":"這個是最重要的 其實我們都有 重賞之下必有這個很多投入 更積極投入的行業謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝張委員的質詢下一位請李燕秀委員質詢 請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時7分）謝謝主席，我們有請彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主委早安。我想今天針對金管會的業務，有兩個事情跟你做一下討論，一個是租賃公司，一個就是打詐。租賃公司中租迪和在國內的聯貸案，其實我們如果從2022年到2025年，現在粗估看得到的是556億，我們知道兆豐借給它非常多，借給它223億。我們甚至還看到在2月份的時候，它跟第一金控又有一個65億的聯貸。主委，你清不清楚，就是國內的銀行對租賃跟融資公司的授信餘額大概有多少錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有做這樣的統計，可不可以請我們莊副主任委員來跟委員做簡單的說明？"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：報告委員，我們金融機構授信給融資公司全部約四千多億，這個主要是授信，就是放款加保證。"],["賴委員惠員：這個從多久到現在？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：這個是最新的數字，應該是今年1、2月的數字。"],["賴委員惠員：今年1、2月的數字？好，四千多億啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這裡面還有擔保的那個部分……"],["賴委員惠員：這是有擔保的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：保證的部分。"],["賴委員惠員：那沒有擔保的呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，就是保證的部分，含保證。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我在這裡跟主委特別提到一點，當然我知道你一直認為中租的租賃……不要說一定是中租，就是租賃這個產業，其實它真正的這些授信的款項，在你金管會的管理裡頭它其實是不多啦！不管它是10兆還是多少錢，可是我們實在應該要正視，就是租賃業的監管套利問題。其實我們都看到一個非常嚴重的問題，我們擔心它把從銀行借到的錢，然後進到房市裡頭去，它的一個先買後付也造成社會很大的問題。","我再給主委看一個數字，我想這個會讓大家嚇一大跳，中租是金融業的繳稅大王，它今年是所有金融業裡頭排序第6名，它繳了101億，它比富邦金控的第10名……富邦金控是第10名，繳了94億，你看它繳了這麼多的稅，可見還有一些是檯面下的，檯面上的它都必須要繳這麼多了，所以這個其實是一個很大的問題。主委，有沒有機會讓銀行業者有一個嚴格的管制方式，就是你可以從這裡頭，最基本的就是揭露各項財務的資訊，像是放款餘額的統計，還有放款的品質，還有不良債權，這一段你可以不可以管？就是比照金融機構公開的財務資訊，這個我覺得你是可以要求的啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，第一個，中租不是金融機構，我先特別提醒一下，這部分因為現在還不是我們所轄，即便未來我們要針對它對自然人的消費，類似消費金融的業務，我們才會納管，揭露這部分是沒有。剛剛委員有提到，對於這個所謂影子銀行的問題，就是它今天如果說借，然後去這個的話，我們現在也進行納管。我想委員如果有注意到，我們去年12月13號有頒了一個函，針對銀行跟融資租賃公司，我們有四項措施。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其中有一個就會納入到央行的信用管制裡面，如果它真的是在做跟房地產有關的部分。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：再來，因為中租這家公司應該是我們的上市公司，上市公司有它一定資訊揭露的這些規定，我們會請期局來研究一下這部分要怎麼揭露，是不是有什麼地方可以再來強化，按照我們上市櫃公司的方式來處理。"],["賴委員惠員：所以主委，不管是本席還是郭國文委員，還是王世堅委員，其實我們都一直藉由不同的質詢方式還是公文的來往，我們希望你要強力的去約束它，甚至它簽具相關的切結書，這個其實你都有回應我們，當然大家其實也是一直積極投入一些比較合法、公平的方式來監督租賃公司，我們都擔心它的聯貸金流，是不是有機會用穿透式的管理？因為我覺得雖然它是經濟部的，可是你這邊其實也有一些霹靂的手法，我不知道主委你怎麼看這些事情？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這點是我們現在正在做的方式，剛剛有提到，如果是任何跟銀行、金融機構貸款的部分，貸後管理的部分，我們會來做一些強化，就像我剛剛跟委員報告的，我們對銀行有信用管制，當然如果它透過某個管道繞過，然後一樣做這件事情，我們還是要納入這個。再來，它如果跟銀行講說我這個貸款是要做什麼，結果不做這個事情的話，那銀行就要開始採取它的作為，我們會來好好的要求銀行。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，你會不會用租賃專法，透過金保法來規範，會不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經在按照……"],["賴委員惠員：顯然看起來你好像是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：按照我們的時程，我們正式納管應該是在施行以後，我們的法規如果預告到6月30號結束，給予幾個月的緩衝期，我們就會開始來納管。"],["賴委員惠員：可是你現在的進度，就是在1月份的時候，金管會就有一個這樣的公告出來了，那到現在3月份的時候，這個進度是不是有一點慢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，倒沒有慢，我們的速度非常快，因為本來法制作業就一定要這樣的時程。還有融資租賃公司他們本身要調整它的作業，因為它本質上過去沒有納管，很多的方式它必須要重做，而且我們在子法裡面會新加入很多新的規定請他們來遵守。"],["賴委員惠員：我想我們一再的關心，就是不希望在央行執行信用管制的時候，我們在打壓炒房的情況之下，還有很多其他資金的漏洞可以流入到房市，再請求金管會在一個月內提供以下的書面報告，不管是國銀對租賃融資業（及區分出三大租賃業者）的授信餘額統計，還有後續的這一些，請提供給我書面的報告。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題。"],["賴委員惠員：接著要跟主委來溝通打詐，打詐其實是我們國內非常嚴肅的一個議題，也是非常嚴重的一個議題，光是昨天一天就有612件，昨天剛好是最多的，金額達到3億。我們有看到你們打詐的成果，從2024年的8月是最高峰，金額是138億，到2025年的2月已經掉到61億，我們國內的銀行怎麼樣協助打詐，是不是有一個比較好的方式呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們的銀行、金融機構真的是盡全力在做這件事情，我們也有對它做要求，最近我們訂了一個「責任地圖」，這是一個非常重要的措施，因為我們要求每家銀行自己要有打詐主管，我們每個月監控他們兩個指標，就是它的警示帳戶的這些指標，如果做不好的話，我們就一家一家盯。除了這個以外，我們也成立了金融科技聯盟，專門針對這個東西進行科技打詐，其實我們做了非常非常多事情，只是說很多事情我們不方便對外揭露，我們希望能夠有效控制住他利用帳戶做不法的交易。"],["賴委員惠員：我們知道在國銀方面，開戶的KYC其實也做到非常嚴格，甚至我們在網路上看到一個非常有趣的影片，是一個銀行職員每天工作的日記報告，我播放一下，這個可以讓我們看出銀行職員的無奈。","（播放影片）"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我想這個就是當今我們很多銀行職員的無奈，問太多了就被客戶講說多管閒事；不問的話又是負心人士，所以我希望銀行在阻攔詐騙的過程裡可以更靈活，平衡安全的考量跟隱私的尊重。我們希望金管會研議提供銀行櫃員相關的SOP或演練培訓，像主委講的，你們做了、出了很大的力氣，事實上，可以講、不可以講的，我們都知道你們在努力，我們也希望一些手法可以更精進，研擬更好的獎勵方式，獎勵方式非常的重要，我覺得當蘿蔔跟棍子一起雙管齊下的時候應該可以看到一個很好的成效，我們有看到這個打詐儀錶板的數據一直都在下降。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在這邊我也謝謝委員給我這個機會，我在這邊也趁這個機會跟所有第一線進行關懷客戶的行員們表達，真的非常的感謝，我也會要求我們的金融機構要全力對他們支持，剛剛那個行員的短片我覺得是很多行員的心聲。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為他們正常是在做金融業務的服務，但是阻詐成為他們日常非常重要的一個工作，我也希望社會給他們多多的支持跟體諒，因為我們去年單單是阻詐就攔下100億，這部分真的要非常感謝我們銀行的第一線。當然委員剛剛指正說可以優化我們的方法，讓客戶感覺到更好的方式，我覺得我們會來努力。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，重點是獎勵的方式。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然我們會來研究。"],["賴委員惠員：獎勵的方式是最重要的，重賞之下必有很多更積極投入的行員，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委的質詢。","下一位請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34471a72ea4703c8ad9336bc333af6bdb0de8218cd9f46c9a1fa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:55:56 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謝謝我想接下來講是外交部他們有"},{"start":161.28,"end":181.651,"text":"有這方面的這些的建議的話,我們會再來跟他討論有,那個外交部有,他已經把第四項列出來了,你應該主動提出方法好不好好,謝謝主委,第二個部分,有關於這一次啊,0121的地震我有特別邀請地震基金會的張總經理下去,張總經理現在也在場,請他上來一下"},{"start":182.651,"end":188.493,"text":"就是整個這個地震的過程當中我去翻過我們地震險從2001年開始到現在的覆蓋率大概38.9%這38.9%當中一來呈現一個第一個問題理賠條件太過嚴苛"},{"start":200.336,"end":227.057,"text":"第二個 理賠金額太低條件說要半島或全島才有然後那天張總整理下去說只要不能住就有貼紅單不能住就有可是到了保險公司保險公司說一定要半島或全島才有所以兩邊的說法兜不起來啦變成這樣子民眾紛紛怨言即便在山區當中的覆蓋率都在10%上下那不管"},{"start":227.617,"end":243.862,"text":"但是他有保險嘛而且現在保險的方式幾乎類似像強制家保一樣你買房子的時候叫你火險那地震險一起買以致你覆蓋率會增加嘛我覺得當初的保險業者可能不太願意做的時候在保單的設計上面就偏向於這個保險公司結果來論是這樣子我提供一個數字給主委參考"},{"start":247.623,"end":272.842,"text":"我近五年來整個這個投資的這個保單的金額我算一算大概四十五億啦如果五年的話所收的保費大概兩百二十五億但是不到三百件的理賠金額理賠的金額啊 老實講不到五億啊啊 夯不啷噹兩百二十五億減掉五億那保險公司就近大概兩百二十億啦對不對就這個金額來說其實是很不合理嘛這個地震險"},{"start":274.144,"end":282.776,"text":"就變地震稅了就好像一定要繳不可拿不到保險的這個保險就是一種稅啊不是嗎"},{"start":289.344,"end":317.684,"text":"這跟委員簡單說明一下地震險我過去也參與了十幾年的時間這必須稍微簡單講一下當時是九二一大地震以後我們仿造主要是仿造紐西蘭這個險的設計它跟我們一般商業地震險不一樣它主要是針對一次的重大地震做準備所以各位看起來就是說一次性的重大其實機率非常低但是台灣的整個地震發生的頻率跟紐西蘭怎麼會一樣呢"},{"start":319.413,"end":326.3,"text":"就是這個險的制度的設計就是為這個目的因為我們一般商業公司也有這個責任險但是剛剛委員講的沒有錯確實當年921地震到現在這個商品的設計剛剛委員講的其實我也蠻認同25年喔對"},{"start":334.528,"end":349.265,"text":"就是說這個部分他很有可能一次大地震就穿透他所有的他不符合台灣目前現實的樣態嘛確實我有請那個地震基金要保人的期待嘛你要不要請我們地震基金來講一下他們未來有我先聽你講你政策上有沒有要改"},{"start":349.665,"end":371.139,"text":"有 我有已經指示他們說因為這個東西牽涉到現在蠻多的客戶那現在有4成就是40%的這個投保率這個投保率主要是來自於房貸的客戶對 沒有錯 那你要怎麼改嘛你不是在分析問題嗎 因為它是綁在房貸的活險保單裡面的這個我都知道 OK 你要怎麼改"},{"start":371.539,"end":386.59,"text":"未來的部分其實就是這個商品的設計本來當時是150萬以現在這麼多年來看的話我覺得它未來應該會朝向是作為一個緊急費用的部分為主因為否則即便全島現在150萬 反正是全島150萬夠嗎對 就是當然 修廁所可能都不夠"},{"start":390.373,"end":405.985,"text":"不太可能作為房屋重建需要但是呢我也請他們再研究未來朝向所謂的以應對緊急費用為主的這樣一個上面因為假設要把那個保額提高就不是以房屋為主體而是讓他生活秩序能夠緊急支應之作用"},{"start":407.426,"end":427.498,"text":"朝這個方向來走這個方向什麼時候出來我從去年04.03的時候就要求你們做改變到了01.21沒有任何動靜這我請我們總經理來跟委員簡單說明一下總經理重點補充一下一分鐘我時間非常有限你先告訴我01.21的這個部分你那個所有的這個理賠金額當中有沒有什麼通融的空間呢"},{"start":429.95,"end":451.191,"text":"回答您這個問題最重要這是一種法規性的保險所以不像一般商業保險有所謂通融不通融的問題那所謂的臨時住宿費用的補償呢這有嗎委員在2003的時候就特別有指示了行政管會還有特別是基金要趕快做研究"},{"start":453.152,"end":474.058,"text":"這個研究的工作從來沒停到一直到去年的九月我們已經提出第一次的方案究竟能怎麼去處理臨時住宿費用那跟各位跟委員報告一下因為這是一個制度型保險所以關於臨時住宿費用怎麼處理這個部分牽涉到債保牽涉到各保險公司什麼時候出來啦我只問結果啦好 請"},{"start":476.2,"end":485.391,"text":"結果我們在跟監管會報告的時候我們是預計在今年的7月1號我們敢再保的時候跟委員再報告一次我們是參考我們紅單標準就是國土水準標準"},{"start":495.263,"end":510.557,"text":"我們收集一直到今年的3月我們才收集其花蓮那邊傳過來的紅單的標準數據你這太慢了嘛不然的話這次0121就可以用得到了嘛不是嗎 主委你想一想辦法好不好0121能不能通融試用一下"},{"start":511.858,"end":532.725,"text":"剛剛總經理有說我們針對緊急租金補貼那一塊他們已經在做研議了這個因為可能影響費率比較小做這個改變會比較容易剛剛總經理也提到因為我們所有的這些地震險非常依賴債保的合約債保合約沒有改變之前"},{"start":533.345,"end":562.318,"text":"不太可能更動它的一些條件我知道你這保險的連動性的問題保險制度連動性的問題但是我只要告訴你說我們要知道的是說你到底什麼時候這樣的地震顯得這個改革什麼時候會出爐給本市一個目標跟時間點他剛才有提到了今年七月會把第一階段的這個小幅度的變更把它提出來因為牽涉到費率還有整個商品的結構小幅度的變更之外要有一個大幅度的改革那接下來就是"},{"start":563.058,"end":585.654,"text":"可能考慮像日本的方式把一些分損對不對對 參照日本的會比較準一點沒有錯 你參照紐西蘭就錯了我再跟你講一個日本的例子最近日本因為要加強打仗那個大阪已經通過立法禁止在ATM之前講電話"},{"start":587.375,"end":599.677,"text":"你有看到這個例子嗎?有我有看到這個例子當中呢告訴我們說長輩很多都在ATM講電話的時候都透過長輩怎麼引導他進行匯款啊你覺得這個禁止條例在台灣可不可行啊?"},{"start":601.188,"end":618.256,"text":"這當然我們還要再去研究一下任何有助於打砸而且低社會成本的方法我們都願意試因為我們現在跟銀行那邊有個定期的這些的交換機制像這個東西我們都列入有好的建議我們都會立刻來做那我再補充做一個建議看看"},{"start":618.996,"end":643.11,"text":"因為以各縣市的詐騙件數來說以雙北 台南跟高雄雙北跟南高的部分比較嚴重ATM的騙局程度你比我更清楚通常都是透過ATM的方式假設加上AI的辨識ATM的話有類似這種行為的話有沒有可能通知警方來採取類似林貴的詛咒的方式有沒有可能"},{"start":643.63,"end":670.544,"text":"我剛才跟委員報告任何只要是低成本可行的我就提這個方法所以我們會來研究這個問題能不能研究看看我們會請我們那個機制來趕快來研究這個對 你就把這個放下去嘛因為ATM第一個能不能用禁止的方式好不好 這評估啦二來的部分呢如果說透過AI辨識有類似的行為的話是不是應該類似林貴煮炸的方式來進行可是我們還有想到很多其他的方法我們會一定來處理 好不好"},{"start":672.065,"end":677.712,"text":"好 謝謝好好研究一下好 謝謝國務院的質詢下面請賴會員召回質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時55分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。主委，我之前有問過有關南非霸凌臺灣，要把臺灣的外交代表處，一來他已經主動更名為「臺北商務辦事處」；二來又要把該處趕出首都的這種作法，現階段到3月底已經要完成。然而當初我在總質詢的時候有問過外交部長，外交部長說，他有四個方法，其中一個方法是經貿反制的方式，作為整個政府的一員，金管會有沒有參與經貿反制當中？準備好了沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這部分上次委員有提供這樣的一個訊息給我們，當然誠如這個投影片上面講的，我們也去了解一下所有金融業在各種業態跟南非幣有關的內容。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然委員也提到，我們有沒有辦法利用投融資的力量來協助外交突破困境。"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但我們的理解是就像投影片上所謂的組合，比較少是我們直接的投資，比如說南非幣計價的境外基金……"],["郭委員國文：主委，不好意思，我跟你打斷一下，你這段確實有跟我說，但不是在投資屬性的一個分析，而是在行政作為一個處理。如果跟之前我們對於俄羅斯的制裁一樣，基本上就是禁買或要求拋售的概念下，第一個，只要發布關於南非國債的部分做一個禁買、拋售令的概念，或把南非債的投資型保單來更換標的，以及南非幣計價的基金變更幣種，這對他的債券市場跟資本市場會造成一定的波動，這就是一種反制的方式啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分的話，我們過去確實在對所轄金融機構的投融資部分，我們比較少……"],["郭委員國文：其實以前可能比較沒有，但是我儘量找到有利可循的方式。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：就比照俄羅斯的禁令方式，這不難嘛！你不能一直期待友邦來幫你、協助你，我們自己要自救，現在自救的方式，明明我們手上有這個武器，我也跟你講過，你應該要有大膽的作為，不是主管金管會而已，你不是金管會的主委而已，你還是政府當中的一員。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：做一個外交部所說的總合外交的概念來說，我希望你能夠慎重面對這個問題，而不是解釋那個投資分析而已，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然是，謝謝。我想接下來假設外交部有這方面建議的話，我們會再來跟它討論看看。"],["郭委員國文：有，外交部有，它已經把第四項列出來了，你應該主動提出方法，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝主委。第二個部分，有關這次0121的地震，我有特別邀請地震基金會的張總經理，張總經理現在在場，也請他上來一下。就是整個地震的過程當中，我去翻過地震險從2001年開始到現在的覆蓋率大概38.9%，這38.9%當中呈現第一個問題，理賠條件太過嚴苛；第二個理賠金額太低，條件要半倒或全倒才有，那天張總經理說只要貼紅單不能住就有，可是到了保險公司，保險公司說一定要半倒或全倒才有。所以兩邊的說法兜不起來，變成這樣子，民眾紛紛有怨言，即便在山區當中的覆蓋率都在10%上下，那不管，但是它有保險嘛！而且現在保險的方式幾乎類似像強制加保一樣，在買房子的時候叫你地震險一起買。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：以至於覆蓋率會增加，我覺得當初的保險業者可能不太願意做的時候，在這個保單的設計上面就偏向於保險公司，就結果來論是這樣子喔！我提供一個數字給主委參考，近五年來整個投資的保單金額，我算一下大概45億，如果五年所收的保費大概225億，但是不到300件的理賠金額，理賠金額老實講，不到5億啊！「夯不啷噹」225億減掉5億，保險公司就進袋220億，對不對？就這個金額來說，其實是很不合理，這個地震險就變地震稅了，好像一定要繳不可。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這點可不可以……"],["郭委員國文：拿不到保險的保險，就是一種稅啊！不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員簡單說明一下，地震險，我過去也參與十幾年的時間，這必須稍微簡單講一下，當時是921大地震以後，我們主要是仿照紐西蘭，這個險的設計跟一般商業地震險不一樣，它主要是針對一次的重大地震做準備，所以各位看起來，就是說……"],["郭委員國文：那一次性的重大，其實機率非常低嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，但是……"],["郭委員國文：臺灣整個地震發生的頻率跟紐西蘭怎麼會一樣呢？對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個險的制度設計就是為這個目的，因為一般商業公司也有這個責任險，但是剛剛委員講的沒有錯，確實當年921地震到現在，這個商品的設計，剛剛委員講的，其實我也蠻認同……"],["郭委員國文：25年了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個部分很有可能一次大地震就穿透所有的這個……"],["郭委員國文：它不符合臺灣目前現實的樣態跟要保人的期待……"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，我有請地震基金……要不要請地震基金來講一下，他們未來有……"],["郭委員國文：我先聽你講，你政策上有沒有要改？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我已經指示他們，因為這個東西也牽涉到蠻多的客戶，現在有四成就是40%投保率，投保率主要是來自於房貸的客戶。"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯，那你要怎麼改？你不是在分析問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是綁在房貸火險保單裡面的……"],["郭委員國文：這個我都知道，OK，你要怎麼改？"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來的部分，其實這個商品的設計，本來當時是比如說150萬，以現在這麼多年來看的話，我覺得它未來應該會朝向是做一個緊急費用的部分為主，因為否則即便全倒，現在……"],["郭委員國文：房子全倒150萬，這樣夠嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然……"],["郭委員國文：修廁所可能都不夠。"],["彭主任委員金隆：它不太可能作為房屋重建需要，但是我也請他們再研究，未來朝向以應對緊急費用為主的部分，因為假設要把那個保額提高……"],["郭委員國文：就不是以房屋為主體，而是讓他的生活能夠緊急支應之作用。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對。我朝這個方向來走……"],["郭委員國文：這個方向什麼時候出來？我從去年0403的時候就要求你們做改變，到了0121沒有任何動靜。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我請總經理來跟委員……"],["郭委員國文：總經理，重點補充一下，1分鐘，我時間非常有限。你先告訴我0121的部分，所有的理賠金額當中，有沒有什麼通融從寬定義的空間？"],["張代理董事長嘉麟：我回答您這個問題，最重要，這是一種法規性的保險，所以不像一般商業保險有所謂通融、不通融的問題……"],["郭委員國文：所謂的臨時住宿費用的補償，這有嗎？"],["張代理董事長嘉麟：這就是委員在0403的時候就特別指示金管會，還有特別是基金要趕快做研究。"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["張代理董事長嘉麟：這個研究的工作從來沒停，一直到去年9月我們已經提出第一次的方案，究竟能怎麼去處理臨時住宿費用……"],["郭委員國文：有喔！"],["張代理董事長嘉麟：跟委員報告一下，因為這是一個制度型保險，所以關於臨時住宿費用怎麼處理，這個部分牽涉到再保、牽涉到各保險公司……"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候出來？我只問結果。"],["張代理董事長嘉麟：結果，我們在跟金管會報告的時候，我們是預計今年7月1日改再保的時候……"],["郭委員國文：7月1日，0121又要拖到7月。"],["張代理董事長嘉麟：跟委員再報告一次，我們是參考紅單標準，就是國土署的標準……"],["郭委員國文：那也不能追溯？"],["張代理董事長嘉麟：我們一直到今年3月才收集齊花蓮那邊傳過來的紅單標準數據……"],["郭委員國文：你就太慢了嘛！不然這次0121就可以用的到了，不是嗎？主委，你想一想辦法好不好？0121能不能通融適用一下？都有這樣的辦法了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛總經理有說，就是我們針對緊急租金補貼那一塊，他們已經在做研議，因為可能影響的費率比較小，他做這個改變會比較容易。還有剛剛總經理也提到，因為所有的地震險非常依賴再保的合約。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：再保合約沒有改變之前，不太可能更動它的一些條件……"],["郭委員國文：好，我知道啦！我知道你這保險的連動性問題，保險制度連動性問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：但是我只是要告訴你說，我們要知道的是你這個地震險的改革什麼時候會出爐？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這部分我們會來……"],["郭委員國文：能不能給本席一個目標跟時間點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他剛剛也有提到了，今年7月會把第一階段小幅度的變更提出來，因為牽涉到費率，還有整個商品的結構，還會……"],["郭委員國文：小幅度的變更之外，要有一個大幅度的改革，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那接下來就是可能考慮像日本的方式，把一些分損考慮進來，因為我們現在……"],["郭委員國文：對，參照日本的會比較準一點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是那個費率，還有我們未來……"],["郭委員國文：沒有錯，你參照紐西蘭就錯了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，當然有各自的優點，日本是國庫補貼，這個我們臺灣是有困難。"],["郭委員國文：我再跟你講一個日本的例子，最近日本因為要加強打詐，大阪已經通過立法，禁止在ATM之前講電話，你有看到這個例子嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我有看到。"],["郭委員國文：這個例子當中告訴我們說，很多長輩都在ATM前面講電話，他們透過電話引導長輩進行匯款，你覺得這個禁止條例在臺灣可不可行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我們還要再去研究一下，任何有助於打詐，而且低社會成本的方法，我們都願意試，因為我們現在跟銀行那邊有定期的交換機制，像這些東西我們都會列入，有好的建議我們都會立刻來做。"],["郭委員國文：那我再補充做一個建議，因為以各縣市的詐騙件數來說，以雙北、臺南跟高雄，雙北跟南、高的部分比較嚴重，那ATM的遍及程度你比我更清楚，他們通常都是透過ATM的方式，假設ATM加上一個AI辨識，有類似這種行為的話，有沒有可能通知警方來採取類似臨櫃阻詐的方式，有沒有可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才跟委員報告過，任何只要是低成本……"],["郭委員國文：我就提這個方法，你覺得呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會來研究這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：能不能研究看看？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我會請我們的機制趕快來研究這個的可行性。"],["郭委員國文：對，你就把這個放下去嘛！因為ATM第一個，能不能用禁止的方式，去評估啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：會，我們任何……"],["郭委員國文：二來的部分，如果透過AI辨識有類似行為的話，是不是應該以類似臨櫃阻詐的方式來進行，可以不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，我們還有想到很多其他的方法，我們會一併來處理，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好好研究一下，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea345ff53ce352403dfbae9eb35b51f79668de8218cd9f46c9a106c82363fbb529205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:57:41 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看起來兩位可能不太清楚知道我們現在公投法怎麼規定中選會基本上是無權審查立法院所提出來的公投案"},{"start":172.486,"end":199.806,"text":"我們這次提出了兩個公投案一個是所謂的講說是所謂的反廢死公投案另外一個是反戒嚴公投案其實在反廢死公投案裡面的主文它其實非常的清楚基本上是要讓全民去決定到底支不支持我們現在我們這個未來如果我們要求各級法院判處死刑的法官是不需要一製決"},{"start":201.087,"end":218.387,"text":"因为依照现在宪判之八号里面的这个要求各级法院的法官未来在做成死刑判决的时候是要一致决的而这个情况的确就会提高就是他基本上就已经促成了十字Face"},{"start":219.229,"end":244.626,"text":"的這個情況在我們現在台灣本來就是執行死刑很不容易那麼判處死刑其實門檻也是很高但是大法官憲判自8號做成之後其實會更增加判處死刑的難度所以我們這次提出的這個公投案基本上它就是一個重大的政策到底大家支不支持未來我們的這個"},{"start":247.603,"end":264.49,"text":"相關的修法和立法的重大的政策我們是不是必須要同意全民是不是同意我們這個是不需要經由法官一致決的同樣的反軍事反戒嚴公投也是一樣賴清德宣布了這17條看起來就是要把台灣這個帶向這個戰爭的邊緣或者是說要實施所謂的這個類"},{"start":277.785,"end":306.852,"text":"軍事戒嚴那這個問題是很嚴重啊那我們台灣我們支持這樣子的一個政策嗎這難道不需要全民來一起表達意見嗎現在民進黨是在怕什麼他們怕公投通過之後會打臉民進黨因為他們支持廢死支持還死支持準軍事戒嚴所以他們這麼的杯葛我們這次立法院所提出來的兩大公投案"},{"start":308.854,"end":337.293,"text":"我要再次重申昨天在立法院的會議整整的浪費了一整天就是因為民進黨委員從會議一開始就霸佔主席台昨天明明應該是施政總質詢要讓他完成結果讓所有的部會首長院長坐在下面耽誤了一整天的時間"},{"start":339.875,"end":363.628,"text":"那只是 我也是覺得說行政院非常的不尊重立法院我們所有的委員都堅持到七點 七點半之後才離開這個立法院院長當時就有說 接下來叫施政總質詢這院長竟然抗命耶 部會首長竟然抗命 竟然不回來這完全是違反這個憲政體制"},{"start":367.973,"end":394.973,"text":"權力分立的原則立法院是監督行政院而且行政院本來就有義務要到立法院接受備詢結果他竟然可以自動放假自動休息我們韓院長昨天在立法院等待他們40分鐘行政院離立法院是很遠嗎非常的遙遠40分鐘都趕不過來嗎"},{"start":398.875,"end":425.771,"text":"實在是讓我感到非常的這個痛心啊看到現在台灣這個行政院不像行政院他倒已經是背離了憲法所賦予他的職責既不尊重立法院而且還處處就抗議向這個立法院抗議明明政府就是個管家但是他偏偏爬到人民頭家的頭上"},{"start":427.473,"end":447.422,"text":"接下來我想請教我們王副秘書長的就是大法官總統府已經公告了大法官的候選人我想這次的名單其實令大家比較訝異的就是司法院院長的被庭人是出生於檢查體系"},{"start":448.823,"end":476.437,"text":"那麼我想請問就是從司法院的角度來看你們會接受這樣子的一個安排嗎會不會擔心未來的這個院長基本上根本不了解司法院裡面這個的一些狀況因為我們知道其實從過去這些年來從民國88年來其實還可以推到更早下來的司法院院長從來沒有過是檢查體系出身的"},{"start":477.58,"end":491.654,"text":"所以請問複蜜你怎麼看這件事情有關於那個大法官的提名還有審查呢他分別是屬於總統還有立法院的職權那我想司法院會尊重就是相關權責機關那個職權的行使謝謝"},{"start":494.741,"end":520.217,"text":"了解好那麼當然這個最後院長的候選人還是要經過立法院統一通過但是我們還是會基本上從司法院的角度去思考這件事情這個被提名人這位被提名人到底夠不夠Qualify他了不了解司法院裡面的一些問題畢竟審檢的體系是不一樣的而且這個可能也會有一些疑慮好那接下來我在"},{"start":522.558,"end":550.103,"text":"繼續想要請問的就是在前兩個禮拜因為柯文哲父親過世所以我們也看到了除了柯文哲當然他一定在現場參與他父親的告別式另外我們也看到了陳水扁請問司法院還有法務部你們現在看到陳水扁你們的想法是什麼"},{"start":551.445,"end":565.074,"text":"他的案子該重新恢復審判了嗎你們知道陳水扁的幾個案子到目前為止庭審多久的時間"},{"start":567.609,"end":592.636,"text":"現在目前是在裁定停止的狀況那這個部分因為是屬於法官個案所以我們行政部不方便表示意見是好你們都說是這是個案但是我要講就是你從個案你就可以看出整個司法體系到底公不公正獨不獨立所有的人台灣的人民都可以清清楚楚知道陳水扁的身體很好"},{"start":593.729,"end":622.678,"text":"他還可以幫他的女兒去擔任訴訟代理人但是他竟然沒有辦法沒有能力他竟然這個法院還有我們的法務部這個高院還有最高檢察還有這個高檢署竟然都沒有要求要重新回覆審判法務委員我們已經有這四個案件我們都有那個發函處請我們法院盡速開庭是所以現在責任回到法院嗎"},{"start":624.028,"end":644.883,"text":"所以高院什麼時候要恢復審判 下一頁下一頁我希望司法院能夠去了解這些事情這個不是單純的個案 這已經涉及到這個法官陳審法官他有沒有失職的問題"},{"start":649.298,"end":667.811,"text":"其實訴訟法的規定我相信副秘也很清楚知道相關的規定這未來如果說繼續讓這些案子延誤下去然後造成又是陳水扁的案子免訴他現在已經有個案子已經免訴了是要繼續往下面拖嗎拖到另外三個案子全部都免訴嗎好我認為這個問題其實很嚴重他真的是涉及到國人對於司法的公信力"},{"start":680.046,"end":708.14,"text":"不要再這麼消極下去接下來我還再問一下有關於軍審的問題賴清德總統他在最近的賴17條裡面他特別有提到要恢復軍事審判本席想了解其實就目前法院審理有關於軍人案件的狀況是有治安難行之處嗎"},{"start":709.861,"end":724.853,"text":"你們認為說法官有沒有能力可以去處理有關於涉及到國安的案件涉及到就是軍人違反陸海空軍刑法一般刑法或是違反國家安全等等這些案件"},{"start":727.711,"end":733.296,"text":"有關於軍事審判未來制度規劃我們會尊重權責機關他們的決定有關於這個部分在102年軍事審判法第一條"},{"start":749.492,"end":766.326,"text":"就是規定修改了之後那還有就是後來的那個國安法19條規定了之後呢其實司法院都有因應成立了相關的那個專庭那我想這一個部分呢就是我再提一點司法院的基本立場因為"},{"start":767.287,"end":780.663,"text":"有關於就是軍事審判呢我們會遵循就是大法官會議解釋436曾經做過那個解釋啊他就說那個憲法第九條人民除了現役軍人之外呢不受軍事審判那這個並不是說"},{"start":783.006,"end":799.488,"text":"軍事審判機關對於軍人的犯罪有專屬的審判權那有關於這個建制呢憲法沒有明文規定這個事實上是那個以法律規定那但是呢一定是要那個符合正當法律程序所以我想"},{"start":800.329,"end":818.393,"text":"如果司法院必須要提適當時候提供意見的時候呢我們也會就是依就是說未來建制希望是可以就是就這個獨立跟公正還有專業性朝這個方面去建構謝謝好因為本席有看到就是你們其實在112年還113年的時候其實有修過你們的這個業務辦法事務分配規則所以看起來你們自己目前內部應該也有專股或者是有這個"},{"start":830.65,"end":855.65,"text":"專門的國安軍事法庭那只是說想了解你們這些法官有接受相關的專業訓練嗎有的那個依法一年是要接受12個小時那個訓練那我們也都每年都有固定開課今年呢剛剛在那個三月間的時候那個辦過那也有那個研討會就是邀請那個國安單位的那個人跟我們那個法院端一起來研討案例"},{"start":855.95,"end":874.848,"text":"好的 所以從複密這邊的角度就是聽到您剛的說明那看起來就是說其實普通法院基本上還是有能力可以去處理相關的案子而且法官也積極地充實相關的知識所以有沒有必要真的全部恢復軍事審判我認為說這個地方還有值得"},{"start":880.013,"end":894.831,"text":"這個去深思的這個必要那當然我也期待就是現在國防部就我了解現在國防部自己自己單方面的在提有關於軍事審判法的相關的修法那我也希望司法院能夠加入一起討論"},{"start":895.692,"end":910.643,"text":"如果說真的有必要要恢復軍事審判那就是看在什麼樣程度之下是在普通法院底下設置專庭或者是說是透過軍法官參審制而這部分的話司法院都跟司法院有關所以我希望你們能夠積極的參與討論好的 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（9時57分）主席好，辛苦了，有時候在開會的時候難免會遇到比較暴衝的委員干擾議事。","接下來我想請司法院副秘書長，還有請法務部次長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長和次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：一開始我想先針對剛剛吳思瑤委員提出來的幾個問題，我覺得還是要在這裡做一個澄清、做一個說明，所謂的術業有專攻，我向來都不會太去批評吳思瑤委員，畢竟他不是學法律的，有時候講一些似是而非的事情，他要把一些不正確的訊息當成謠言一樣的散播出去，這個部分，我想懂法律的人就會知道他所說的話基本上是貽笑大方，常常透過質詢自暴其短，他就不是學法律的人。剛剛講到所謂的公投，依照公投法的規定，我想兩位應該清楚知道立法院有沒有權利可以提起公投案，先請問副秘書長，您知道根據公投法的規定，立法院有沒有權利可以提起公投案？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以，依公投法第十五條，立法院是有職權的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我們可以提出什麼樣的公投案？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以提出複決。"],["翁委員曉玲：重大政策的創制與複決吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想徐次長應該也清楚知道現在公投法的規定，我們立法院本來就有權利可以提起公投案。至於公投案的主文，這當然是經過立法院大家的提案，通過之後，立法院所提出來的公投案的主文，中選會有權力可以審查嗎？請問兩位知不知道、清不清楚？中選會是不是可以審查立法院……"],["徐次長錫祥：這個是中選會的職權。"],["翁委員曉玲：看起來兩位可能不太知道現在公投法是怎麼規定的，中選會基本上是無權審查立法院所提出來的公投案。我們這次提出了兩個公投案，一個是反廢死公投案，另外一個是反戒嚴公投案，其實在反廢死公投案裡面的主文寫得非常清楚，基本上是要讓全民去決定到底支不支持未來我們要求各級法院判處死刑的法官是不需要一致決的，因為依照現在憲判字第8號裡面的要求，各級法院的法官未來在作成死刑判決的時候是要一致決的，而這個情況基本上就已經促成了實質廢死的情況，現在在臺灣執行死刑本來就很不容易，判處死刑的門檻也很高，但是大法官憲判字第8號作成之後，其實會更增加判處死刑的難度。所以我們這次提出的公投案，基本上它就是一個重大政策，就是到底大家支不支持未來我們相關的修法、立法的重大政策，全民是否同意我們不需要經由法官一致決？同樣的，反戒嚴公投也是一樣，賴清德宣布了這17條，看起來就是要把臺灣帶向戰爭的邊緣，或者是要實施所謂的類軍事戒嚴，這個問題是很嚴重的！臺灣支持這樣的政策嗎？這難道不需要由全民來一起表達意見嗎？現在民進黨是在怕什麼？他們怕公投通過之後會打臉民進黨，因為他們支持廢死、支持緩死、支持準軍事戒嚴，所以他們才這樣杯葛我們這次立法院所提出來的兩大公投案。","我要再次重申，昨天立法院的會議整整浪費了一整天，因為民進黨委員從會議一開始就霸占主席臺，昨天明明應該要讓施政總質詢完成，結果卻讓所有的部會首長、院長坐在下面，耽誤了一整天的時間。我也覺得行政院非常不尊重立法院，我們所有的委員都堅持到7點、7點半之後才離開立法院，院長當時就有說，接下來就要進行施政總質詢，結果院長竟然抗命耶！部會首長竟然抗命不回來！這完全是違反憲政體制、權力分立的原則。立法院是監督行政院，而且行政院本來就有義務要到立法院接受備詢，結果他竟然可以自動放假、自動休息。韓院長昨天在立法院等待他們40分鐘，行政院離立法院是很遠嗎？非常的遙遠，40分鐘都趕不過來嗎？實在是讓我感到非常的痛心，看到現在臺灣行政院不像行政院，它已經背離了憲法所賦予它的職責，既不尊重立法院，還處處向立法院抗議，明明政府就是個管家，但是它偏偏要爬到人民頭家的頭上。","接下來我想請教王副秘書長，總統府已經公告大法官的候選人，這次的名單令大家比較訝異的是司法院院長被提名人是出身於檢察體系，我想請問，從司法院的角度來看，你們會接受這樣的安排嗎？會不會擔心未來的院長根本不了解司法院裡面的狀況？因為我們知道過去從民國88年以來，其實還可以推到更早，向來司法院院長從來沒有過是檢察體系出身的，所以請問副秘書長，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有關於大法官的提名和審查，其分別是屬於總統和立法院的職權，司法院會尊重相關權責機關職權的行使，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：了解。當然最後院長的候選人還是要經過立法院同意通過，但基本上我們還是會從司法院的角度去思考這件事情，這位被提名人到底夠不夠qualified、他了不了解司法院裡面的一些問題？畢竟審檢的體系是不一樣的，而且這個可能也會有一些疑慮。","接下來我想要詢問的是，前兩個禮拜，因為柯文哲的父親過世，我們看到除了柯文哲當然一定在現場參與他父親的告別式之外，我們也看到了陳水扁，請問司法院和法務部，你們現在看到陳水扁的想法是什麼？他的案子該重新恢復審判了嗎？你們知道陳水扁的幾個案子到目前為止停審多久時間了？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前是在裁定停審的狀況，這個部分因為是屬於法官個案，所以我們也不方便表示意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，你們都說這是個案，但是我要講，你從個案就可以看出整個司法體系到底公不公正、獨不獨立。所有的臺灣人民都可以清清楚楚的知道，陳水扁的身體很好，他還可以幫他的女兒去擔任訴訟代理人，但是法院、法務部、高院以及高檢署竟然都沒有要求要重新恢復審判。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這四個案件我們都有發函促請法院儘速開庭，我們都有發函。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以現在責任回到法院嘛？所以高院什麼時候要恢復審判？我希望司法院能夠去了解這些事情，這個不是單純的個案，這已經涉及到這個承審法官有沒有失職的問題。我相信副秘也很清楚刑事訴訟法相關的規定，未來如果繼續讓這些案子延誤下去，造成陳水扁的案子又免訴，他現在已經有個案子免訴了，是要繼續往下面拖，拖到另外三個案子全都免訴嗎？我認為這個問題很嚴重，它真的是涉及到國人對於司法的公信力，不要再這麼消極下去了。","最後，我還要再問有關於軍審的問題。賴清德總統在最近的賴17條裡面特別有提到要恢復軍事審判，本席想了解，就目前法院審理有關於軍人案件的狀況，是有窒礙難行之處嗎？你們認為法官有沒有能力去處理涉及到國安的案件，或是涉及到軍人違反陸海空軍刑法、一般刑法或是違反國家安全等等的這些案件？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。有關未來軍事審判制度的規劃，我們會尊重相關權責機關的決定。關於102年軍事審判法第一條的規定修改了之後，還有後來國安法第十九條規定了之後，其實司法院都有因應成立相關的專庭。我再提一點司法院的基本立場，關於軍事審判，我們會遵循大法官會議曾經做過的第436號解釋，它說憲法第九條人民除了現役軍人之外不受軍事審判，這個並不是軍事審判機關對於軍人犯罪有專屬的審判權。有關建置，憲法沒有明文規定，事實上，這個是以法律規定，但一定要符合正當法律程序。如果司法院適當時候必須提供意見，我們也希望未來可以朝獨立、公正還有專業性方面去建構，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為本席有看到你們其實在112年有修過你們的事務分配辦法，所以看起來你們目前內部應該也有專股，或者是有專門的國安軍事法庭。我只是想了解這些法官有接受相關的專業訓練嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有，依法一年要接受12個小時訓練，我們每年也都有固定開課，今年剛剛在3月間辦過，也有研討會邀請國安單位的人員跟法院端一起來研討案例。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以從副秘的角度、聽到您剛剛的說明，看起來就是普通法院基本上還是有能力可以去處理相關的案子，而且法官也積極地充實相關知識，所以有沒有必要真的全部恢復軍事審判，我認為還有值得深思的必要。據我了解，現在國防部自己單方面在提有關軍事審判法的相關修法，我也希望司法院能夠加入一起討論，如果真的有必要恢復軍事審判，那就是看在什麼樣程度之下，是在普通法院底下設置專庭，或者是透過軍法官參審制，而這部分都跟司法院有關，所以我希望你們能夠積極地參與討論。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159607","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159607","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34f9769184e3ba2fa4280a1269ac70bedcde8218cd9f46c9a13dd907335e0676765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:57:31 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,["張委員嘉郡：是，部長你說個案，我就覺得這就是您的愛心了，因為您有愛心，就好像那天我在院會，我說你農業部不能只有你一個人有愛心、有態度，你上上下下要一致嘛！假設沒有到你這個層級，就沒有辦法個案處理，它就變成一個制度問題了。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所有案子都可以個案處理，就像非正面表列的就可以個案處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：假設沒有呢？我希望這個制度不能冷漠，然後我們整個農業部的上上下下，要能夠站在體恤農民的這種角度上。那我再舉一個例子，不好意思，主席，就是再一下下。農民去關農用的抽水馬達，結果死了，死在他去關這個農用的抽水馬達，結果他也不能領職業災害保險，退回的理由說因為抽水馬達不是農地，所以這樣也不能准許，這個該怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是說，他在農業的這些操作行為，他可以去舉證，跟他的死因、醫生開的死因，這個如果沒有在正面表列的話，他們就會用專案的方式去研判。這個東西不是用一個一個個案，就是像非正面表列的，都是用個案的方式，我們有110家這方面的醫療診所可以協助。"],["張委員嘉郡：我這樣子講啦！最重要是……假設以勞保作為舉例，如果跟農民職業災害保險的職災保險來做死亡給付的話，其實勞保可以給付的是兩倍以上，所以變成說農業職業災害保險的死亡給付是過低的。我想要提醒部長的是，這個部分希望部長能夠有同理心，你的正面表列是不是可以增加？或者是其他特殊案例，是不是有一些案例可以舉證？讓這一些辦公的，不管是農業部的職員也好，或者是農會的職員也好，甚至是各大縣市政府或者是公所的職員也好，他們有一個因應的案例，讓他們能夠有所適從，能夠去協助農民，而不是他問公所，公所也不知道，還要一直報到農業部才會知道。這一點我希望部長可以做一個指示，讓他們可以更加仔細去把這個範例，甚至它的整個內容正面表列做清楚，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個正面表列的部分，我們會持續檢討，能夠納入正面表列相對單純，我們就把它納進去，不是正面表列的部分，我們會用過去的這些案例，讓可能會用到的這些人民去瞭解，因為很多個案會成為他們非正面表列的判例，這個部分我想我們會努力來做。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，這個判例如果可以多幾個，讓地方上上下下大家都知道的話，這樣子農民才會安心，否則他要問可能去問公所的農業課，結果課員說我也不知道，我也沒處理過，這要怎麼處理？所以這一點特別拜託部長好嗎？謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我還是說明一下，因為整個的審查、核定是勞保局，但是農業部一定是用服務的立場去協助他說明……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，但你是主管機關，你要提供多一點案例讓他可以有這個……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會協助他說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員啓楷代）：請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我請一下陳部長好 請部長"},{"start":23.19,"end":50.811,"text":"部長好部長我想這個每一次農業部都會把你們未來的工作跟過去所推動的業務都報導的非常詳細但最近有一個新聞我想還是要趁這個機會是不是讓部長來說明一下現在地方各地農會各地區的農民都非常緊張因為有國民黨的委員說配合租地種電就會喪失農保資格他說政府對於老農養套殺"},{"start":53.334,"end":61.79,"text":"那到底這件事情是不是真的同時間我們看到去年在審查預算提案的時候國民黨的馬文君委員說"},{"start":63.836,"end":82.633,"text":"農業部對種電的農民沒有取消他的農保資格但是對於其他有盈利事業登記證的農民是把他取消資格很顯然在這件事情上面就有人在造謠了到底農地種電會不會被取消資格這是一件事情"},{"start":83.772,"end":111.94,"text":"政府有沒有對老農養套殺這是另外一件事情這是第二件事情第三件事情我其實更想知道就是說在我們現在一直不斷的在推動無法耕作的這些老農他如果願意把他的農地釋出不管是去種電或者是租給青農協助青農能夠真正實質從事農業耕作但是因為你們現在配合審計部的這個調查是不是會導致"},{"start":113.82,"end":130.173,"text":"地主跟租約的這些實耕者關係惡化那這個問題要怎麼解決部長來給您時間回答好 謝謝委員我這邊還是要去強調就是整個的一個榮保的資格其實"},{"start":131.55,"end":153.222,"text":"要加入農盲都知道,他必須要有一分地,然後要實際從農。那相對的,就像剛才委員所提到的,65歲以上的老農,我們是鼓勵他把農地租給青年農民。所以在這個部分其實我們已經放寬了,他的土地就不需要再擁有0.1分地,所以他就沒有所謂的農保,因為地不夠的問題。"},{"start":154.502,"end":173.532,"text":"所以65歲以上的農民他租給人家他的農保資格不會喪失嗎即使是租給重電的也不會喪失嗎對 是都不會喪失所以這也是很清楚的一定要一定要澄清我覺得這個農業部也要去做一個澄清對 這個我想我們一定澄清就是65歲以上的老農是完全不會受到影響"},{"start":174.612,"end":198.899,"text":"這是要特別去澄清的然後第二個部分就是65歲以下的部分就誠如我剛才簡報我講的我們為了配合國家能源政策那你的土地如果租給光電業者的時候你的土地的持份如果土地的擁有不到一分地的時候我們也讓他能夠繼續擁有農保所以後續也不會對這個配合光電政策的也不會受到影響"},{"start":200.08,"end":223.714,"text":"好 部長我覺得像這些很奇怪農業的東西啊 謠言很快就會散佈然後搞到所有的農民人心惶惶我認為像這個應該農業部要很快速的回擊或者是很快速的反應但是你們現在的快速反應呢會出現一個很大的落差就是你們的預算被砍你們的宣傳預算被砍我現在要跟您談到的是"},{"start":230.256,"end":257.765,"text":"你的轄下的業務費被砍了你的預算差旅費被砍了宣傳預算也被砍了差旅費被砍很多人覺得差旅費被砍沒什麼差旅費被砍是我很在意啊為什麼因為你們要隨時下鄉啊你們要隨時下鄉不管是勘栽不管是協助農民種植你的農改廠隨時都要去協助農民做農業的技術的改良嘛你差旅費被砍"},{"start":259.205,"end":272.242,"text":"怎麼樣去幫助農民那你以後叫你這些同仁是怎麼樣走路去還是騎腳踏車去未來怎麼樣去勘栽你現在現在的天氣變化這麼大"},{"start":274.807,"end":295.839,"text":"屏東的芒果已經只開花不結果慢慢的會往上延伸會到高雄到台南是這些看災要不要看玉荷包今年去年年底的時候花開得很漂亮現在開始發現問題了只開花不結果要不要去看災怎麼去看災這個預算這樣被砍還有您剛剛講到的你的這個錢"},{"start":302.259,"end":320.434,"text":"業務費被刪了以後你們不能去申請基金的撥補基金就撥補過來他們說基金撥補過來沒問題啊可是你不能申請預備金啊去年的農損總共你申請預備金撥補多少錢去年天然災害的話撥補的將近40億撥補了40億那今年預算這樣被砍的話"},{"start":325.885,"end":340.531,"text":"你一毛錢都申請不到對 二倍金就不能一相關的預算法是不可以的按照預算法一毛錢都申請不到是那怎麼辦所以我們只能你要怎麼處理我們只能向行政院祈求風調雨順颱風永遠都不會來第一個我要還是要去擲筊"},{"start":341.704,"end":364.001,"text":"我跟委員報告就是過去委員都知道這件事情所以我們的基金公務撥補基金大概都不會被刪那這次被刪了以後真的是對二倍金影響那二倍金不能的話我們只能再看行政院有沒有其他的方面的一個基金或者是像我覺得行政院能夠救助的方法都救助了然後在經濟委員會裡頭其實我們在經濟委員會裡頭我們是沒有刪這個錢的"},{"start":367.944,"end":395.409,"text":"每一個委員在現場的委員包括國民黨的委員大家都說來自農業縣大家對農業都是支持是沒有刪這個錢的啊為什麼到了院會到了富坤崎所領導的黨團就會把這個錢刪掉那未來我們要怎麼樣協助農民去處理第三個這個錢的問題還小事啊台灣的農產品被他們說的一文不值啊"},{"start":396.721,"end":420.696,"text":"部長我給你看一個這個是民國86年的專欄報導當時的農委會說要把台灣的水果走向精品路線所以呢現在我們台灣的農民很認真很努力啊一直希望能夠把台灣的水果打向世界舞台打向國際舞台你看到人家日本細張哈蜜瓜兩顆賣300萬日元"},{"start":423.869,"end":448.256,"text":"紅葡萄一串賣160萬日元芒果兩顆賣60萬日元這是精品走向這是精品走向但是不是每一顆都是這樣賣啦對不對這個也是台灣希望有一天我們的我們的水果也是能站在日本的精品市場不是嗎是這是我們努力的目標好結果你看一下"},{"start":450.356,"end":464.121,"text":"我們外銷日本的水果銷量是成長比如說去年跟2016比我們的出口銷量是大幅增加547%可是我們的金額只有成長232%"},{"start":467.558,"end":486.388,"text":"鳳梨外銷日本9年成長了16倍總共成長了1614%但是我們的金額只增加了1469換句話說我們只有拼量沒有拼到價錢"},{"start":488.604,"end":509.694,"text":"這跟我們當時想要做的其實是相違背嘛部長 你這樣懂我的意思嗎我知道因為天災 因為天氣冷 香蕉長不出來所以香蕉價格貴還竟然被國民黨的王宏威說這是詐騙他說香蕉怎麼可以這麼貴台灣的香蕉怎麼可以這麼貴你知道 岐山的蕉農聽了內心都在淌血啊"},{"start":518.991,"end":547.08,"text":"不緊張的話就很悲哀啊買這個介紹也不是他要的 市場沒用 你當然介紹就管嘛結果他跟你說 香蕉不能這麼貴還有人說要去引進廉價的香蕉進來到底是誰在破壞台灣的農業啊到底是誰在殺害台灣的農業啊我直接用殺害兩個字 不是損害而已 是殺害啊"},{"start":549.192,"end":558.4,"text":"不然像現在你要怎麼做我跟委員報告齁就是在我們經濟委員會的委員包括國民黨包括民進黨包括任何政黨"},{"start":560.353,"end":585.211,"text":"對農業夠了解當你對農業不夠了解才會講這樣子的一個話當我們農民受到天然災害的時候那相關的這些量太少的時候就算他價格比較高也沒辦法滿足他的過往的收入啊是啊所以這個部分我們一定是堅持絕對不會從類似的其他的水果我們也不會從其他的國家去進口來打擊我們自己的農民"},{"start":586.764,"end":609.061,"text":"所以我是覺得這樣就是說有一些人對農業不了解的還是要多讀點書或者是到鄉下去走一走或者是農業部你們應該利用宣傳的時候讓大家多一點了解農業知識可是很可惜你們的宣傳經費也被砍所以不懂的人還是不懂"},{"start":610.329,"end":629.31,"text":"那我們希望能夠把台灣的水果推向國際不只是只有量我們希望那個價錢要把它拉高你要讓農民真的能夠透過外銷可以多賺一點錢可以賺得到錢這個是我們一直在努力的目標所以我想"},{"start":630.732,"end":648.459,"text":"預算被砍未來的這個災損的補助到底從何而來這個我們還需要一直努力啊那我不知道國民黨的委員願不願意協助願不願意去跟他們的副坤崎總召說放過農民一馬"},{"start":650.148,"end":661.943,"text":"放過農民一馬 幫幫台灣的農業如果他們願意 我們可以在這裡給他拍拍手如果不願意 那他們很顯然就是扼殺台灣農業的幫兇啊我必須要講這麼重的話 部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我請陳部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長好。部長，每一次農業部都會把你們未來的工作跟過去所推動的業務都報告的非常詳細，但最近有一個新聞，我想還是要趁這個機會讓部長來說明一下，現在地方各地農會、各地區的農民都非常緊張，因為有國民黨的委員說，配合租地種電就會喪失農保資格。他說：政府對於老農養套殺。到底這件事情是不是真的？同時間我們看到去年在審查預算提案時，國民黨的馬文君委員說：農業部對種電的農民沒有取消他的農保資格，但是對於其他有營利事業登記證的農民卻取消他們的資格。很顯然在這件事情上面就有人在造謠了，到底農地種電會不會被取消資格？這是一件事情。政府有沒有對老農養套殺？這是第二件事情。第三件事情，我其實更想知道的是，我們現在一直不斷的在推動，對於無法耕作的老農，他們如果願意把他們的農地釋出，不管是去種電或者是租給青農，協助青農能夠真正實質從事農業耕作，但因為你們現在配合審計部的調查，是不是會導致地主跟締結租約的這一些實耕者關係惡化？這個問題要怎麼解決？部長，給您時間回答。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員，我這邊還是要強調，關於農保的資格，其實要加入農保的人都知道，他必須要有1分地，然後要實際從農。"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["陳部長駿季：相對的，就誠如剛才委員所提到的，針對65歲以上的老農，我們鼓勵他們把農地租給青年農民，所以在這個部分，其實我們已經放寬了，他的土地就不需要再擁有1分地，所以他的農保就沒有因為地不夠的問題，這個部分就……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以65歲以上的農民把地租給人家，他的農保資格不會喪失嘛……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：即使是租給種電的也不會喪失嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，都不會喪失。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個就是……"],["邱委員議瑩：這一點是很清楚的，一定要澄清，我覺得農業部也要去做澄清。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們一定澄清，65歲以上的老農是完全不會受到影響，這是要特別澄清的。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分，針對65歲以下的部分，就誠如剛才我講的簡報，我們為了配合國家能源政策，如果你的土地租給光電業者的時候，當你擁有土地的持份不到1分地時，我們也讓他能夠繼續擁有農保，所以配合光電政策的人也不會受到影響。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我覺得像這些……很奇怪，農業的東西啊，謠言很快就會散布，然後搞到所有的農民人心惶惶，我認為像這個，農業部應該要很快速的回擊，或者是很快速的反應，但是你們現在的快速反應會出現一個很大落差，就是因為你們的預算被砍、宣傳預算被砍，我現在要跟您談的是，你轄下的業務費被砍了，你的差旅費預算被砍了，宣傳預算也被砍了。差旅費被砍，很多人覺得差旅費被砍沒什麼，但差旅費被砍我很在意，為什麼？因為你們要隨時下鄉！你們要隨時下鄉，不管是勘災、不管是協助農民種植或農改場，隨時都要去協助農民做農業技術的改良，現在差旅費被砍，要怎麼樣去幫助農民？難道以後叫這些同仁走路去？還是騎腳踏車去？未來要怎麼去勘災？現在天氣變化這麼大，以致屏東的芒果只開花不結果，這現象會慢慢往上延伸到高雄、臺南，這些勘災要不要勘？去年年底時，玉荷包花開得很漂亮，現在發現問題了，也就是只開花不結果，這要不要去勘災？怎麼去勘災？但這項預算就這樣被砍了。還有您剛剛講到的，業務費被刪了，以後不能申請基金撥補；他們說基金撥補過來沒問題，可是不能申請預備金！去年農損你總共申請預備金撥補多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：以去年的天然災害來說，撥補了將近四十億。"],["邱委員議瑩：撥補了四十億？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：今年預算被砍成這樣，你卻連一毛錢都申請不到？"],["陳部長駿季：對，依預算法而言，二備金是不可以的。"],["邱委員議瑩：按照預算法，你一毛錢都申請不到？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：怎麼辦？你要怎麼處理？祈求風調雨順，颱風永遠都不會來？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們只能向行政院……第一個，我還是要……"],["邱委員議瑩：還是去擲筊？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，過去委員都知道這件事，所以我們的基金、公務撥補基金大概都不會被刪。這次被刪了以後，真的是對申請二備金造成影響。如果二備金不能申請的話，我們只能再看看行政院有沒有其他方面的基金，或者向……"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得行政院能夠救助的方法都救助了，其實我們在經濟委員會並沒有刪這筆錢！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：每一個在現場的委員，包括國民黨委員在內，大家都說來自農業縣，大家對農業都是支持的，所以沒有刪這筆錢，為什麼到院會、到傅崐萁所領導的黨團就要把這筆錢刪掉？未來我們要怎麼協助農民去處理？","第三個，錢的問題還是小事，問題是臺灣的農產品被他們說的一文不值！部長，我給你看一個報導，這是民國86年的專欄報導。當時的農委會說要讓臺灣水果走精品路線，所以我們臺灣的農民很認真、很努力，一直希望能夠把臺灣的水果打向世界舞臺，打向國際舞臺。你看人家日本的夕張哈密瓜兩顆賣300萬日元，紅葡萄一串賣160萬日元，芒果兩顆賣60萬日元，這是精品走向，當然不是每一顆都這樣賣，對不對？我們希望有一天我們臺灣的水果也能夠站上日本的精品市場，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是，這是我們努力的目標。"],["邱委員議瑩：結果你看一下。我們外銷日本的水果銷量是成長的，像去年跟2016年比，出口銷量大幅增加547%，可是金額只成長232%。鳳梨外銷日本九年成長16倍，總共成長1,614%，但金額只增加1,469%。換句話說，我們只有拼到量沒有拼到價錢，其實跟我們當時想做的相違背，部長懂我的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["邱委員議瑩：現在因為天災，因為天氣冷，香蕉長不出來，所以香蕉價格貴，竟然被國民黨的王鴻薇說這是詐騙！他說香蕉怎麼可以這麼貴？臺灣的香蕉怎麼可以這麼貴？旗山的蕉農聽了內心都在淌血！沒香蕉可收割就很悲哀了，賣到這種價錢也不是他想要的，畢竟市場沒量價錢當然就高，結果他說香蕉不能這麼貴，還有人說要引進廉價的香蕉，到底是誰在破壞臺灣的農業？到底是誰在殺害臺灣的農業？我直接用「殺害」兩個字，不是損害而已，是殺害！部長，面對這種情形你們要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，經濟委員會的委員，包括國民黨、包括民進黨、包括任何政黨，都對農業夠了解。只有對農業不夠了解的，才會講出這樣的話！當農民受到天然災害，以致量太少時，就算價格比較高，也沒有辦法彌補他過往的收入。"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以這部分我們一定會堅持，而類似的其他水果，我們也不會從其他國家進口，以免打擊我們自己的農民。"],["邱委員議瑩：我是覺得這樣，有一些人對農業不了解，就多讀點書，或到鄉下去走一走，或者農業部應該利用宣傳的時候，讓大家多了解一點農業知識。很可惜，你們的宣傳經費被砍了，所以不懂的人還是不懂。我們希望能夠把臺灣的水果推向國際，而且不是只有量，我們希望價錢要拉高，讓農民真的能夠透過外銷多賺一點錢，可以賺得到錢，這是我們一直在努力的目標。預算被砍，未來的災損補助到底從何而來？這個我們需要一直努力，但我不知道國民黨的委員是否願意協助？願不願意去跟他們的傅崐萁總召說，放過農民一馬，放過農民一馬！幫幫臺灣的農業！如果他們願意，我們可以在這裡給他拍拍手；如果不願意，很顯然的，他們就是扼殺臺灣農業的幫兇！部長，我必須要講這麼重的話。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員。","我們下一位請張嘉郡委員發言。我稍後要拜託楊瓊瓔委員幫我代理主席，到張啓楷委員詢答完畢後就休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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得牠在我心目中不是個動物牠就是個重大的我們要考慮的因素啦所以都不要考慮這個外面都形容是灰犀牛啊灰犀牛可是好用啊黑天鵝比較scare比較小啊"},{"start":155.215,"end":156.637,"text":"賴清德總統就在前幾天賴17條正式把中國道路界定為境外敵對勢力"},{"start":177.538,"end":181.603,"text":"我們看一下金融機構到大陸去了有16家如果數字有錯就請你指針"},{"start":194.235,"end":216.867,"text":"只分87家總部選金額多少我不要講比例 我講金額多少金額多少現在假設不同業別不同銀行我剛剛報告過全部三頁加起來三頁加起來的話我先跟委員說明銀行大概8000億保險大概1270億左右證券大概只有十幾億而已所以加起來大概就是9000多億左右"},{"start":223.15,"end":239.508,"text":"因為我根據你們的數字在去年底是九千多億曝洩那請問他們的NPL多高NPL的話其實上我們看到應該還是在大概應該是一點多吧那還是很低啊很低很低我們國內的話只有0.15"},{"start":244.133,"end":253.259,"text":"這比國內的低對 而且我們對國內的控制比台灣好喔不是不是 我說我們國內0.15% 他們大概一點多但是我們對他的那個提撥有加成"},{"start":256.857,"end":276.636,"text":"我請問你啊我請問你啊總統做這個宣誓以後有沒有這個長官告訴你啊比如院長告訴你未來要盯這個這一塊市場要讓他緊縮這個因為敵外軍這個境外敵對勢力啊所以當然要緊縮有沒有這樣的指示"},{"start":277.156,"end":304.417,"text":"其實我想我在立法院這個快一年以來幾乎每一次都有委員關注這一題我想從過去來講我們的國營從開始他們的嗅覺也非常敏銳所以一路下來其實我覺得他們已經感受到機會跟不同點的分散比如說我們很明顯看到從對岸的投資他們在減少當中但是他把這個移動到比如說南向還有比如說到澳洲"},{"start":305.878,"end":323.257,"text":"歐洲到美國去這非常非常明顯就跟我們很多的廠商也移動到那邊我們的金融服務業是跟隨這些廠商移動的所以我想這部分不是我的問題這個我知道啦但是我的問題是說總統這番話以後會不會加速你剛才提到的可能會我們叫OOC吧是不是"},{"start":326.16,"end":353.496,"text":"這個離開中國大陸然後去南下會不會這樣連包括銀行也會不會這樣其實我覺得金融業特別是銀行在這一波的過程當中他已經做了很好的調整比較沒有OO型的問題他本來就一向就是跟隨著市場其實我們的產業的移動他就跟隨著移動其實我覺得這部分可是就你的預估未來還是持續的在減少在中國大陸的一些的活動是不是可以這樣講"},{"start":354.116,"end":381.967,"text":"其實這取決一個因素我們的國營我們從他過去的營業範圍裡面他們大部分都是服務台商為主台商的移動還有外資企業的移動就決定了他們未來的比重我想這部分就要看這個因為金融服務就像我們去日本設廠我們的金融機構就過去我請問你因為我實際有限這些國營的或者不知道是不是國營的在大陸服務台商這些銀行他們的獲利情況跟在台灣這個"},{"start":384.199,"end":398.834,"text":"裡面來比的話怎麼樣我們各家情況不同平均平均比較好還是比較不好這我沒有具體的數字啦因為各家一樣不一樣不過我覺得會後我會提供給委員好請問這個台積電"},{"start":402.296,"end":427.142,"text":"這個要去美國投資一千億美金算不算重大事件他們當然是台積電是國內在公司治理上非常非常優異的公司是我想他們在比如說很多重大訊息的時候他都有依規定發布重大訊息的對外發重訊你什麼時候知道他3月4號的時候早上6點多就發了這個重訊也在符合我們這所有的所以你知道時間跟我一樣"},{"start":428.734,"end":435.592,"text":"重訓就是這樣因為我們是資本市場的管理機構阿你都沒事先找到一個所以你跟我一樣"},{"start":437.458,"end":461.817,"text":"我們的執掌就是在金融市場裡面我都認為你應該比我們早一點知道才對啊就像我們所有的公司他們在發重訊之前他就按照我們的規定來做他有沒有跟你們打招呼我們有不需要 有沒有我們就按照規定來做就像我們這麼多的上千家兩家他發布重訊之前有沒有跟你們報告 有沒有重訊的部分我想主要是跟交易所這邊來處理 對"},{"start":468.809,"end":480.158,"text":"至少我覺得在過去不管哪家公司我們都是按照這個規定來辦理他們就是他是跟交易所之間的關係他們是跟上市就是跟交易所之間的氣氛請交易所的董事長來一下好不好時間暫停一下謝謝"},{"start":490.449,"end":513.829,"text":"請問他們發佈中訊之前是有沒有跟你們打招呼?一般發佈中訊之前他們不會跟我們打招呼會不會?不會都不會?對直接發佈?對他們按照中訊發佈要求的規定新管會請教編輯會因為它是這麼大的一個事情你們的角色扮演是什麼?"},{"start":515.29,"end":537.893,"text":"其實台積電之於金管會 他就是我們所轄的上市櫃公司的議員沒有特殊的情況我們對所有上市櫃公司 我們是主管機關 是主政在這個部分那比如說他今天可能牽涉到其他部分 其他部會的執掌比如他未來假設在那投資 那是經濟部投審會他會來做決定 但是我們就是一個一般的上市公司"},{"start":538.646,"end":543.713,"text":"好 再來我再請教你這個川普把加密貨幣當作戰略儲備"},{"start":546.741,"end":575.633,"text":"外界以為不得了可以自由買賣其實不是的啦他是把他是把這個把這個洗錢的這些扣押住了然後但是他當作戰略儲備台灣不是啊台灣是把這些洗錢的加密貨幣加一加就放充公放國庫裡面的賣掉了變成這個樣子啦不一樣兩者不一樣我就請問你我就請問你我們要不要也follow美國做法當作戰略儲備要不要請問你"},{"start":576.328,"end":604.913,"text":"第一個先跟委員報告這不是我們金管會的對那我想說美國會這樣做法呢其實上市場有很多的討論本來市場預期說他們會加購結果他沒有他就把現有在司法部扣押的這20萬顆當作儲備所以市場呢就感覺也就是一個重分類的這個戰略儲備是什麼意思這個部分可能要問其他我不敢這個做你是專家不敢講沒有沒有這部分真的"},{"start":606.74,"end":623.625,"text":"好 因為我時間快到了 最後一個問題問你了你們剛好看今天最新的一個報導是同義醫療發行穩定幣所以提出了虛擬資產服務法要求所有的"},{"start":625.162,"end":640.523,"text":"合法的交易合法的交易所都要跟你們登記禁止私人交易你要不要講一下就是在我們的草案裡面既然我們要立這個專法一定才特許制"},{"start":641.244,"end":667.519,"text":"所有特許制一定是你沒有取得特許當然是不能經營這個業務這當然是那否則特許就沒有意義了所以未來呢我們要納管保護國人交易人的權益這未來都一直要你你你立法稽查禁止私人交易那當然就是接下來我們會跟司法單位就像我們現在所有的特許特許業務一樣我們就是一定有我們主政單位跟我們的司法檢調機構呢就會同步來做這些事"},{"start":667.839,"end":694.029,"text":"你會不會讓電子支付也參與可以交易當然這個我們講穩定幣有四種不同的東西一個就是電子支付的可以不可以電子支付可以不可以這未來也是我們討論穩定幣的類型的其中之一有沒有可以變成所謂的代幣化這樣一個過程所以你的意思就是可以就看未來我們在討論的時候那這樣一來的話那個現在有的在AppleAndroid的有些要下架好不好"},{"start":694.809,"end":711.534,"text":"這些我們未來穩定 譬如說在台灣要上街 按照我們現在草案的規劃是要經過我們的許可 我們是follow全世界各國都是相同的規定謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝彭主委 謝謝賴世保委員接下來請郭國文委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時44分）主席以及各位先進，有請彭主委。"],["主席：有請金管會彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。大家都知道川普上任之後，搞得全世界天翻地覆，他一下子要課關稅，然後股市爆跌都有，包括美股、臺股都一樣，然後現在又暫緩一下，開始對半導體、對汽車又暫緩，然後股市又漲了，所以感覺因為川普他個人的特質，讓全世界金融市場都在坐雲霄飛車，我這樣的statement對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去從美國總統新當選以後到現在的政策，不斷的成為國際上討論的話題，每一個當然都會引起國際上很大的震動，我是蠻同意委員剛才講的，就是全世界都有一些蠻明顯的……"],["賴委員士葆：但是川普的2.0跟過去歷任的美國總統是不一樣的，even川普他的1.0都沒有這樣子，川普2.0讓全世界的金融市場，特別是臺灣，幾乎都坐雲霄飛車。所以，你同不同意可以說川普的關稅政策，因為他最喜歡談的就是關稅，變成我們未來要面對的一頭很大的灰犀牛？同不同意這樣講？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們臺灣以出口為導向，當然關稅的議題一定是我們關注的，尤其比如說，我們很多出口品是資通訊產業、半導體，如果他針對某些特定產業，剛好是我們最大的出口產業，當然對我們的影響是大的，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你同不同意我講它是灰犀牛這個詞？"],["彭主任委員金隆：每個人對灰犀牛的定義不一樣，但我覺得絕對是個重大的影響因素。"],["賴委員士葆：所以差不多嘛，就是你不會否定我的講法嘛？應該。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是我剛才講，我的灰犀牛跟委員的灰犀牛可能長得不一樣……"],["賴委員士葆：不然就黑天鵝，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想絕對是一個重大的變……"],["賴委員士葆：你覺得是個犀牛還是天鵝來形容比較好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得它在我心目中不是個動物，它就是一個重大的，我們要考慮的因素啦。"],["賴委員士葆：所以都不要考慮？因為外面都形容是灰犀牛，灰犀牛比較粗壯啊，黑天鵝比較小。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得這件事情每個人有不同的看法，但是站在主管機關的立場，我絕對認為這是一個重大的……"],["賴委員士葆：重大影響，所以老實講，你是接近同意我的講法。賴清德總統在前幾天提出賴17條，正式把中國大陸界定為「境外敵對勢力」，剛才也有委員提到了，其實我過去很少提這個問題，但是因為賴總統講話了，我一定要跟你談一下。我們看一下金融機構到大陸去的有16家，如果我講的數字有錯就請你指正，設立的子、分行或者辦事處有87家，總曝險金額有多少？我不講比例，我講金額，有多少？金額有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在假設不同的業別有不同的狀況，銀行我剛才報告過……"],["賴委員士葆：全部三業加起來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：三業加起來的話，我先跟委員說明，銀行大概8,000億，保險大概1,200億，1,270億左右，證券大概只有十幾億而已，所以加起來大概就是還不到……"],["賴委員士葆：九千多億左右。"],["彭主任委員金隆：九千多億，對、對。"],["賴委員士葆：根據你們的數字，在去年底的曝險總額是九千多億，請問他們的NPL有多高？"],["彭主任委員金隆：NPL的話，其實我們看到的應該還是在大概一點多吧。"],["賴委員士葆：那還是很低。"],["彭主任委員金隆：很低、很低，對。"],["賴委員士葆：很低，跟臺灣差不多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們國內更低，我們國內的話只有零點一五。"],["賴委員士葆：就比國內還低？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，而且我們對……"],["賴委員士葆：那控制得比臺灣好喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是、不是，我是說我們國內零點一五，他們大概一點多，但我的意思是說……"],["賴委員士葆：他們一點多，我們零點多，好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我們對他的提撥有加成。"],["賴委員士葆：我請問你，總統做這個宣示以後，有沒有長官告訴你，比如說院長告訴你，未來要盯這一塊市場，要讓它緊縮，因為是境外敵對勢力，所以當然要緊縮，有沒有這樣的指示？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我在立法院快一年以來，幾乎每次都有委員關注這一題，從過去來講，我們的國銀從開始，他們的嗅覺也非常非常敏銳，所以一路下來，其實我覺得他們已經感受到機會跟不同點的分散，比如說，我們很明顯地看到，對於對岸的投資在減少當中，但是他把這個東西移動到比如說南向，還有就是比如說到澳洲、到歐洲、到美國去，這個非常非常明顯，就跟我們很多的廠商也移動到那邊，我們的金融服務業是跟隨這些廠商移動的，所以我想這部分……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，這個我知道，但是我的問題是說，總統這番話以後會不會加速你剛才所提到的，可能會我們叫OOC嘛，是不是？就是離開中國大陸，然後去南向，會不會這樣？連包括銀行也會不會這樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我覺得金融業，特別是銀行，在這一波的過程當中，他已經做了很好的調整了。"],["賴委員士葆：就比較沒有OOC的問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，他比較沒有剛剛的那個問題，他們本來一向就是跟隨著市場，我們的產業移動，他就跟隨著移動，其實我覺得這部分……"],["賴委員士葆：可是就你的預估，未來還是持續地減少在中國大陸的活動，是不是可以這樣講？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這取決於一個因素，我們的國銀從其過去的營業範圍來看，他們大部分都是服務臺商為主，臺商的移動，還有外資企業的移動就決定了他們未來的比重，我想這部分就要看這個，因為金融服務，就像我們去日本設廠，我們的金融機構就過去……"],["賴委員士葆：我請問你，因為我時間有限，這一些國銀的或者不管是不是國銀的，在大陸服務臺商的這些銀行，他們的獲利情況跟在臺灣境內的獲利情況來比的話怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：各家的情況不同，但是大概我們看他的……"],["賴委員士葆：平均，平均比較好還是比較不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：平均？這個我沒有具體的數字，因為各家銀行不一樣，不過會後我會提供給委員。"],["賴委員士葆：好，OK。請問台積電要去美國投資1,000億美金，算不算重大事件？"],["彭主任委員金隆：台積電是國內在公司治理上非常非常優異的公司，他們在比如說很多重大訊息的時候，他都有依規定對外發布重訊。"],["賴委員士葆：你什麼時候知道的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他在3月4號早上6點多的時候就發了重訊，也符合我們所有的……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你知道的時間跟我一樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：重訊就是這樣，因為我們是資本市場的管理機構。"],["賴委員士葆：你都沒有事先得知？所以你跟我一樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的職掌就是在金融市場……"],["賴委員士葆：我都認為你應該比我們早一點知道才對啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就像我們所有的上市櫃公司，他們在發重訊之前，就按照我們的規定來做，他也沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：他有沒有跟你們打招呼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有……"],["賴委員士葆：不需要？有沒有？有沒有跟你們打招呼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就按照規定來做，就像我們有這麼多的上千家將近兩千家……"],["賴委員士葆：他發布重訊之前有沒有跟你們報告，有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：重訊的部分，主要是交易所這邊來處理，對。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有嘛？我要問這個答案，有沒有事先跟你們講。"],["彭主任委員金隆：至少我覺得在過去，不管哪家公司，我們都是按照這個規定來辦理，他是跟交易所之間的關係，上市公司就是跟交易所之間的契約關係……"],["賴委員士葆：好，請交易所的董事長來一下，好不好？時間暫停一下。"],["林董事長修銘：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：請問他們發布重訊之前，有沒有跟你們打招呼，有沒有？"],["林董事長修銘：一般發布重訊之前，不會跟我們打招呼。"],["賴委員士葆：會不會？"],["林董事長修銘：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：都不會？"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["賴委員士葆：直接發布，都不需要講？"],["林董事長修銘：對，他們是按照重訊發布的要求跟規定。"],["賴委員士葆：請教一下金管會彭主委，因為它是這麼大的一個事情，你們的角色扮演是什麼？金管會的角色扮演。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實台積電之於金管會，他就是我們所轄的上市櫃公司的一員。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有特殊的情況？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於所有上市櫃公司，因為我們是主管機關，是主政這個部分，當然他今天可能牽涉到其他部會的職掌，比如他未來假設真的要投資，那是由經濟部投審會來做決定，但是我們就是視為一個一般的上市公司……"],["賴委員士葆：好。再來我請教你，川普把加密貨幣當作戰略儲備，外界以為不得了，可以自由買賣，其實不是的啦，他是把這個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：扣押的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：把洗錢的這些扣押住了，然後把它當作戰略儲備。臺灣不是，臺灣是把這些洗錢的加密貨幣就充公放國庫裡面，然後就把它賣掉了，變成這個樣子，不一樣，兩者不一樣。我請問你，我們要不要也follow美國的作法，把它當作戰略儲備，要不要？請問你。"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個先跟委員報告，這不是我們金管會的職掌範圍。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道、我知道，不是你，對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對。我想美國會有這樣的作法，其實市場上也有很多討論，本來市場預期他們會加購，結果他沒有，他就把現有在司法部扣押的這20萬顆當作儲備，所以市場就感覺也就是一個重分類的這個……"],["賴委員士葆：戰略儲備是什麼意思？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分可能要問其他，我不敢做一些妄議。"],["賴委員士葆：你是專家耶，不敢講？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有、沒有，這部分真的，我對這方面……"],["賴委員士葆：好，因為我時間快到了。最後一個問題問你，我看今天最新的報導是，你們同意銀行發行穩定幣，所以提出了虛擬資產服務法，要求所有合法的交易所都要跟你們登記，禁止私人交易，你要不要講一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們的草案裡面，既然我們要立這個專法，一定是採特許制，所有的特許制一定是你沒有取得特許，當然就不能經營這個業務，這是必然的，否則特許就沒有意義了。所以未來我們要納管、保護國人、交易人的權益，這個未來都一定是要……"],["賴委員士葆：你如何稽查並禁止私人交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然就是接下來我們會跟司法單位，就像現在所有的特許業務一樣，一定有主政單位跟司法檢調機構會同步來做這些……"],["賴委員士葆：最後，你會不會讓電子支付也參與可以交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我們講說穩定幣有四種不同的東西，一個就是電子支付的……"],["賴委員士葆：電子支付可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個未來也是我們討論穩定幣類型的其中之一，有沒有可以變成所謂的代幣化這樣一個過程。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思就是可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就看未來我們在討論的時候……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣一來，現在有在Apple、Android的有些要下架，要不要？"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來穩定幣如果在臺灣要上架，按照現在草案的規劃是要經過我們的許可，我們是follow全世界各國都是相同的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝彭主委、謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34358d7c57161157d59336bc333af6bdb0c80eeefacbca121bb3d58fd2b68507d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"09:35:33 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那券商公會是認為說因為一個高淨值客戶的名稱那讓業務上這種綁手綁腳所以建議刪除啦"},{"start":77.901,"end":87.604,"text":"讓業務執行能夠更有彈性,同時也能夠服務小額投資人我還是要提醒主委,要明確的揭露相關的手續費風險不要讓這項政策的推動,變成一個問題重重的部分"},{"start":96.866,"end":119.838,"text":"那再來就是說目前台灣除了護國神山台積電還有電子相關代工產業之外還是以中小企業為主但是因為中小企業有時候公司的一個組織不夠健全財務也不夠完備所以無法自銀行取得其營運所需的全部資金那所以反而會就像這些"},{"start":121.939,"end":150.011,"text":"地下融資或者一些其他的融資業者來做一個取得資金那造成這個地下金融日益猖獗那暴力討債事件也是層出不窮造成嚴重的社會問題那政府應該要特別重視行政院在民國97年1月30號院會上通過融資公司的融資公司法草案由於該年該草案送進立法院審議那一直到現在"},{"start":150.791,"end":178.844,"text":"可不可以請主委告訴我們進度如何好我想跟委員委員長很關注這個問題我想主要是融資公司其實上融資公司是我們一般的同層其實我們在實務上並沒有這樣一個確實的業態他主要是反映在他的營業活動上面比如說他有做所謂的應收賬款買賣或是做一些類似可以有待放這樣的行為他的公司的名稱樣態非常非常多種這也是"},{"start":179.244,"end":205.973,"text":"在過去我們在討論這些納管非常非常困難本質上很有可能是其他業態但他可能有從事到這個活動這主要的原因是我們在中華民國的法治之下融資業務就跟借錢這件事情跟人家借錢這件事情不是一個特許事業就像我們朋友之間任何人都可以有這個借貸但是如果跟別人吸收存款這件事情就是一個特許事業或是你做轉匯這些東西就是個特許事業所以很多人就"},{"start":206.733,"end":231.016,"text":"就以為說這個東西大概是一個比較比較所謂是銀行的業務其實不是那我想說這個就是因為衍生說很多很多業態都可以來做但是呢從最近幾年來可以看得到就是因為這些類似融資的行為因為他畢竟沒有受到比較嚴格的管理所以呢就會有這樣的一個衍生問題像比如說前陣子對BMPL或是這些分離貸款所以我們就"},{"start":232.525,"end":260.804,"text":"想到一個方式我們就是應該立刻應該很快就會做到就是我們會先針對這些所謂的融資公納型的融資公司去先做處理融資公司專訪我們現在是委託銀行公會的研究他們在做初稿的這樣的研究我們還持續在研究對那所以是我們現在接下來要做的是大型租賃公司先行納管是的對不對那先行納管之後是不是只修正這個金保法的部分目前"},{"start":261.184,"end":285.725,"text":"我們金保法是不用修的因為我們金融消費者保護法第三條裡面就有授權給金管會這樣的權利我們需要調整的是金保法所授權的三個執法一個是有關廣告的一個是有關契約公平的一個是我們有關那個就是這裡面幾個執法這個三個執法我們大概也跟業者已經溝通已經幾乎調整完畢我們可能最近就會預告"},{"start":286.545,"end":306.76,"text":"主委今天我有一個提案就是希望金管會能夠來納管大型的租賃公司這部分那因為租賃資金是企業的命脈那各項資金隆重管道應該納為管理因為國內各融資公司上千家對不對那這些都是從事放款、保證、票據、貼現等"},{"start":308.081,"end":332.094,"text":"提供中小企業的一個資金需求所以過去確實這個長久以來衍生了許多的社會問題這個部分金管會責無旁貸所以要求金管會三個月內將這個先行納管的部分先行納管在一個月內好不好一個月內對我們財務會提出進度的報告會不會跟委員報告一下就是說我們這個進度我們可能應該是在"},{"start":333.115,"end":351.932,"text":"如果在四月初應該就可以把這個執法就預告就是應該這樣可以差不多可以在快的話四月初我們就可以預告了所以剛才我我們也非常非常贊同委員剛剛那個建議我們現在第一波會會針對大型的私家上市上市櫃的融資"},{"start":352.933,"end":368.653,"text":"主領公司跟他所匣的12個子公司一併納入我們第一波的適用範圍之內所以我想這波我們會按照委員的指示主委希望說讓租賃借貸這個業務能夠更加的完善"},{"start":369.053,"end":391.506,"text":"是好不好這個環境能更加友善那再來就是金管會推動永續金融ESG包含環境社會公司治理那一直是金融政策的重要方向在美國川普總統上任之後針對114年相關作為政策更新資訊接受真實性金融商品監理等三方面有沒有進行調整主委"},{"start":393.006,"end":415.115,"text":"我們現在有關永續金融因為金管會所主政的部分就是永續金融的部分那永續金融部分我們還是按照我們的既定的時程在推動像我剛才在業務報告裡面比如說我們今年所有的公司上次貴公都要編永續報告書那我們接下來呢114年是不是擴大適用對象"},{"start":416.096,"end":420.78,"text":"我們永續報告室已經全部都要 因為它是自足年金融機構已經適用了 早就適用"},{"start":425.066,"end":446.25,"text":"那另外就是說ESG的資訊揭露的真實性與可比較性其實是最關注的部分當然我們也有要求他們要進行確信還就是要經過由第三方公正的地方做如果揭露資料未適時求是否有懲處或者是更正機構來保護這些投資人權益有什麼樣的機制"},{"start":446.65,"end":475.665,"text":"根據我們現在的法規如果說是列入在比如說他的財報跟年報那基本上他是有一定的法律的那個真實的義務那當然這部分我們他的所有對外的揭露的文書那法律有規定的那當然不在話下我們也是希望他任何對外公佈的任何的這些的報告呢都要具有真實性這是一定的這是最基本的要求只是他法律的規定不同會有不同的適用"},{"start":476.685,"end":485.453,"text":"對啦 永續金融不是口號嘛 是對不對 需要具體的一個接力偵測 明確的指標還有有效的查核 好不好是 沒問題謝謝主委 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝委員的這個質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（9時35分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委，請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。主委，金管會的一項新規定就是預告修法有兩大重點，一、刪除券商高淨值客戶條件，回歸券商KYC與KYP的規定；二、拉高申請兼營全權委託門檻。法規預告期兩個月，這部分是不是請主委在這邊簡單說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：財富管理業務一開始的時候主要是在銀行端的業務，後來因為我們有發現其實保險跟證券也都有這個業務，所以我們陸續開放，比如說保險財富管理應注意事項、證券商應注意事項。主要是因為在銀行的部分，它已經把這個條件改變了，所以券商這邊也比照辦理，我想這大概是一致性的規定，主要是這樣的原因。"],["顏委員寬恒：券商公會認為因為「高淨值客戶」的名稱讓業務綁手綁腳，所以建議刪除，讓業務執行能夠更有彈性，同時也能夠服務小額投資人。我還是要提醒主委，要明確揭露相關手續費、風險。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：不要讓這項政策的推動變成問題重重的部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：再來就是說，目前臺灣除了護國神山台積電，還有電子相關代工產業之外，還是以中小企業為主，但是因為中小企業有時候公司組織不夠健全，財務也不夠完備，所以無法至銀行取得其營運所需的全部資金，所以反而就會向這些地下融資或者一些其他融資業者取得資金，造成地下金融日益猖獗，暴力討債事件也是層出不窮，造成嚴重的社會問題，政府應該要特別重視。行政院在民國97年1月30號院會通過融資公司的融資公司法草案，於該年將該草案送進立法院審議一直到現在，可不可以請主委告訴我們進度如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員一向很關注這個問題，主要是融資公司是我們一般的通稱，其實我們在實務上並沒有這樣一個確實的業態，它主要是反映在它的營業活動上面，比如說它有做所謂的應收帳款買賣，或是做一些類似可以有貸放這樣的行為，其公司名稱樣態非常非常多種，這也是過去我們在討論這些要納管非常非常困難，它本質上很有可能是其他業態，但可能有從事到這個活動，這主要的原因是在我們中華民國的法制之下，融資業務，就是跟人家借錢這件事情，不是一個特許事業，就像朋友之間任何人都可以有借貸。但是如果跟別人吸收存款這件事情就是特許事業，或是做轉匯這些就是個特許事業，所以很多人就以為這大概比較是所謂銀行業務，其實不是，我想就是因為衍生很多很多的業態都可以來做，但是從最近幾年來可以看得到，這些類似融資的行為因為它畢竟沒有受到比較嚴格的管理，所以就會有這樣一個衍生的問題，比如說我們前一陣子對BNPL或是這些分期貸款，所我們就想到一個方式，我們應該很快就會做到，就是我們會先針對這些大型融資公司先做處理，融資公司專法現在是委託銀行公會研究，他們在做初稿的研究，我們還持續在……"],["顏委員寬恒：還在研究？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以現在接下來要做的是大型租賃公司先行納管，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：先行納管之後，目前是不是只修正金保法的部分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金保法是不用修的，因為金融消費者保護法第三條裡面就有授權給金管會這樣的權利，我們需要調整的是金保法所授權的3個子法，一個是有關廣告的，一個是有關契約公平的，一個是有關……這裡面幾個子法，這3個子法我們也跟業者溝通，已經幾乎調整完畢，我們可能最近就會預告。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委，今天我有一個提案，就是希望金管會能夠納管大型租賃公司這部分，因為資金是企業的命脈，各項資金融通管道應該納為管理，因為國內各融資公司上千家，這些都是從事放款、保證、票據貼現等，提供中小企業的資金需求，所以過去確實長久以來衍生了許多社會問題，這個部分金管會責無旁貸，所以要求金管會3個月內將先行納管的部分……在1個月內啦！好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：1個月內對財委會提出進度的報告，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我也跟委員報告一下，這個進度我們可能應該是在4月初就可以把子法預告，應該差不多就可以，大概快的話，4月初我們就可以預告了，所以我們也非常贊同委員剛剛的建議，我們現在會針對4家大型上市櫃融資租賃公司與它所轄的12家子公司一併納入第一波的適用範圍之內，所以這部分我們會按照委員的指示，我們在這個……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。主委，希望讓租賃借貸這個業務能夠更加的完善，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：環境能更加友善。","再來就是金管會推動永續金融、ESG，包含環境、社會、公司治理，一直是金融政策的重要方向，在美國川普總統上任之後，針對114年相關作為，政策更新、資訊揭露真實性、金融商品監理等三方面有沒有進行調整，主委？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是說我們現在有關永續金融，因為金管會所主政的部分就是永續金融的部分，那永續金融部分我們還是按照既定的時程在推動，像我剛才在業務報告裡面，比如說今年所有上市櫃公司都要編永續報告書，接下來呢……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，114年是不是擴大適用對象？會不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：永續報告書已經全部都要編，因為我們是逐年。"],["顏委員寬恒：金融機構全部納入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，金融機構已經早就適用了。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，另外就是ESG資訊揭露的真實性與可比較性其實是最關注的部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們也有要求他們要進行確信，還有就是要經過由公正的第三方做確信。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果揭露資料未實事求是，是否有懲處或者是更正機制，以保護這些投資人權益？有什麼樣機制？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然根據我們現在的法規，如果是列入在比如說它的財報及年報，基本上它是有一定的法律的真實義務，這部分它所有對外揭露的文書，法律有規定的當然不在話下，我們也是希望它任何對外公布的這些報告都要具有真實性，對不對？這是一定的，這是最基本的要求，只是法律的規定不同，會有不同的適用。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦！永續金融不是口號嘛！對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：需要具體的監理政策、明確的指標，還有有效的查核，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員的質詢。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：接下來請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea341eecff9f2dbf0ce8ae9eb35b51f79668c80eeefacbca121bfbc405ee1c6225db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:39:35 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美國的國家安全，為了避開國家遭受到威脅，所以認為這時候的言論自由權利會在某程度受到限制。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以美國最高法院的9名大法官是一致認為TikTok與中國政府的關係所構成的國家安全風險，遠遠大於TikTok所涉及的1.7億用戶的言論自由權利，這就是言論自由跟國家安全必須在權衡下做出正確的選擇，這就是為什麼美國最高法院對TikTok來禁止，它是合憲的，我為什麼今天一直破題，言論自由非常重要，但是國家安全不可偏廢，而言論自由必須有所限制，這是法律的授權規範，也是世界皆準的觀念，一定要在這裡澄清。","司法院未來可能很頭痛，現在有2個不存在的假議題的公投，但是昨天在立法院被弄假成真，在野黨委員非常遺憾，用會議外的時間偷襲開會，只為了強行表決逕付二讀2個不存在的公共議題，一個反廢死，一個反戒嚴，其實他們的政治目的只是讓公投來綁罷免，也就是公投來救罷免。這是他們的主文，荒謬至極，你們有沒有讀到這個主文？"],["徐次長錫祥：有。"],["吳委員思瑤：副秘，有沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有。"],["吳委員思瑤：我就不在這裡去拆穿前後邏輯矛盾，根本是邏輯壞死，但是，我要提到的是臺灣確實存在死刑，臺灣沒有廢死，次長，我們最近執行的死刑，以及高雄地院合議庭做成的死刑判決，您再一次清楚向國人說明，臺灣並沒有廢死。"],["徐次長錫祥：今年1月16號執行了黃姓死囚的槍決案，再來，最近高雄地院也判決了對殺害2位夫妻的也是判處死刑，死刑在嚴格的程序跟情節最嚴重的犯行的話，法院還是維持有死刑的判決。"],["吳委員思瑤：大法官釋字第8號也講得很清楚，死刑合憲，只是我們要進行一些更嚴謹的正當法律程序。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：國民黨所推的反廢死公投，是反對一個毫不存在的事實，我要提醒，跟司法院未來絕對相關，法界的意見，像陳英鈐教授講得非常清楚，這個反廢死的題目或是反戒嚴的公投題目，都違反了憲法的明確性原則，只是把公投當作綁樁的工具；蘇子喬教授也好，或者是政大的林佳和副教授也都說，國民黨提案的公投並沒有符合憲法的明確性原則，而且這個題目既非創制，沒有具體的法政策，更不是複決，這個公投有非常嚴重的瑕疵跟邏輯的壞死。跟司法院有什麼關係？當我們對於國會擴權的法案，憲法法庭宣判之後，立法院就有一股立委要提公投法，要用公投法的修正來否決憲判，而我的解讀，剛剛的廢死公投也某種程度是他們在對大法官憲法法庭解釋，去做誤導的政治操作，也就是當立法院的委員說，司法院的憲法法庭判決不能凌駕立法院，那很好啊！本來五院、憲法機關就是平等相維，立委認為司法院要尊重立法院，那當然立法院的委員不能用修法的方式，或是用這種不存在的公投議題來凌駕司法院的權限嘛！這件事情非常嚴重喔！如果未來國民黨委員用公投法的修正來否決憲判，這就是違反憲法第七十八條司法院解釋憲法的權力，也違反了大法官已經做成釋字第185號司法院解釋憲法的統一權限，任何違背解釋的判例當然失其效力，但是任何人都要尊重憲法法庭的憲判。所以憲法解釋等同憲法，如果國民黨的委員認為公投如何、如何，那就進行必要的修憲或是修法的程序。","非常的遺憾，在死刑合憲的憲判出爐之後，我在立法院司法及法制委員會這個場域一直說，立法院的責任不是去推翻憲判，因為我們都要尊重憲法，我們都要恪遵憲法，在憲判出爐之後，立法院的使命是要透過修法來完備制度的配套。譬如死刑合憲，我們要如何強化法制來避免冤獄的產生，我們如何修法防堵犯罪人逃避刑責的可能，我們更應當落實修法，來推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化。我已經說過N次了。","所以在立法院我們要修的法有刑法、刑事訴訟法、法院組織法、監獄行刑法，這是因應釋字第8號解釋之後立法院該做的工作，也是行政部門應當啟動的修法配套研議。次長，你們進行到哪裡了？"],["徐次長錫祥：有一部分還在我們部內審查，刑法的部分已經送到行政院了。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以行政部門該做的準備都在進行，該做的制度精進配套都負責任的進行，而立法院，我要問問國民黨的委員，只會去操作這種空殼公投、詐騙公投，請問你們依職責該啟動的修法做了沒？沒有！自己不善盡職責，卻提這些沒有道理、不存在的議題、詐騙公投來愚弄社會、來挽救罷免，這實在是荒天下之大謬！請法務部即刻針對必要的制度配套加速，已經送院的當然在行政院，但是你們內部還在研議中而且擴大社會民間對話的要持續進行。","我再次的呼籲，立法院昨天的違法開會、違法議決都不應當被認同。而我相信我們主持已經有一年經驗的吳宗憲召委非常清楚，如果開會表定時間到6點，我們的主席非常有經驗，都會按照議事規則在6點前詢問在場的委員是否同意延長會議，這是議事規則的ABC，吳宗憲委員也都必須遵從這樣的規則，只是昨天立法院的韓國瑜院長並沒有在大會做明確的延長會議的宣告，以及進行院會的公決，這樣的會議就是違法的會議，就是無效的表決，當然連同被偷渡、偷襲的兩個公投案也無效。今天質詢到這裡，該做的準備，我們做好準備，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，下一位請翁曉玲委員。","吳委員，你剛剛說的我都不評論，我剛剛是請教一個程序上的……沒有、沒有、沒有，不評論。程序上問題就是，因為之前您有抗議過好幾次我的主持，就是讓……不是、不是，我不是討論昨天的事情，我說你讓委員不可以問官員今天議題以外的事，你以前抗議過好幾次，但你剛剛問的東西跟本日的議題無關，是不是以後我們達成一個共識，如果委員的時間……"],["吳委員思瑤：你在侵犯我的言論自由哦！你在侵犯我的問政自由哦！"],["主席：不是，這個是你當初質疑其他立委……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，你在侵犯我的言論自由。"],["主席：請不要發言，現在是我發言。你當初抗議過好幾個委員在問跟本日無關的議程，那我今天只是確認，如果大家都可以這樣做的話……"],["吳委員思瑤：請不要現在立法院……"],["主席：那是不是以後在委員的時間……"],["吳委員思瑤：……人的言論自由。"],["主席：我們就讓委員能夠自由的詢問，我只是確認這個事情，好不好？我只是確認這個事情。"],["沈委員發惠：讓會議順利的進行。"],["主席：我要讓會議順利的進行，所以我要確認我接下來這段時間主持會議，本委員會該怎麼做，因為之前吳思瑤委員多次抗議……"],["沈委員發惠：好了！好了！"],["主席：其他委員在質詢臺上面詢問官員跟本日議程無關的案件……"],["沈委員發惠：好了！好了！好了！好了！好了！讓會議順利進行。"],["主席：所以如果今天我們可以讓委員在他的時間內就被詢問的官員詢問任何一種問題的話，那這就是形成我們一個慣例……"],["沈委員發惠：好了啦！"],["主席：將來只要委員在質詢臺上面發問任何的問題……"],["沈委員發惠：好了！好了！好了！"],["主席：我們都會予以尊重，我們不會像吳思瑤委員一方面抗議其他委員詢問跟本日無關的議程……"],["沈委員發惠：你作為一個主席，用大家會議的時間……"],["主席：同時自己也在議場上面詢問跟本日無關的議程……"],["沈委員發惠：夠了！夠了！"],["主席：以上就是我主持委員會，主席這邊只是要做一個確認，那如果一律不准其他的委員詢問跟本日無關的……"],["沈委員發惠：垃圾！"],["主席：欸！我跟你講，你不要罵，這個會構成公然侮辱。"],["沈委員發惠：我就是要駡你！我就是要駡你！"],["主席：如果今天我們同意其他的委員包括吳思瑤委員，可以詢問跟本日議程無關的議題的話，那就大家一律適用，我個人還是公平的主持會議，就是大家一併共同的適用……"],["沈委員發惠：主席！"],["主席：其他人都不用再多說，這個是我在主持會議，請安靜！我在主持會議，請安靜！不要干擾我主持會議，請不要干擾我主持會議。"],["沈委員發惠：不要再說了，讓大家趕快進行詢答。"],["主席：今天我們講的很簡單，就是我要確認我們會議的進行該怎麼做。所以很簡單的是，如果今天各位委員都可以在臺上利用他的時間詢問各式各樣的問題，那我們就予以尊重，只要不違法，我們就予以尊重。好，我想將來我主持會議大概就會採這個模式，而不是說像上次有多位委員去罵質詢的委員說「你問的問題跟本日議程無關」，那將來大家說的，我都予以尊重。那剛剛不當的干擾那就算了，我原諒你。","那下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"],["主席：我說我原諒是我不會提出告訴啦，請放心。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea344b58d74b3b7d6e2a280a1269ac70bedcc80eeefacbca121bf0e74eb070a3a03c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:33:45 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抱歉抱歉各位委員上次會議事錄有錯誤沒有好 議事錄確定好我們現在請登記第一位林黛華委員發言有請部長請部長"},{"start":25.281,"end":47.914,"text":"好 部長 兩大議題 第一個繼續關心非營利犬貓血庫推動的議題 第二個針對台灣豬續產的一個狀態跟您做討論 第一個呢 這個我是非常感謝您 您是親自處理非營利犬貓的血庫平台的一個建置那但是呢 有一個重點是"},{"start":48.194,"end":67.234,"text":"建立推廣總部去杜絕血液的交易那現在呢你們是要本部本部自己做那也沒有問題是由房檢署自行來管理所以呢你下面有很多分部那我要提醒部長這個政策的成敗就是在於推廣"},{"start":68.135,"end":94.69,"text":"跟教育事主因為他不會像人一樣自己來捐血所以包括你怎麼讓目標的這個可以這個目標有潛力也願意有誘因鼓勵這些大型的這個這個事主願意帶出他的狗狗或貓貓出來當來捐血這件事情就非常的重要我先提點你你現在有150個已經晶片"},{"start":97.418,"end":119.403,"text":"你的狗狗你如何從這個已經現有的資料庫當中去跟這些事主宣導以及一些什麼相關的一個鼓勵措施讓他願意來跟你們來做配合是不是你願意跟他做一些全面的健檢這個也是一個免費健檢類似這樣然後進而跟他推廣這個是對狗狗是好的對貓貓是好的"},{"start":123.524,"end":129.47,"text":"然後呢 進而你要跟誰來做結合 你要跟獸醫師這個學會所有全國的動保團體 他結合你們的這個防檢署本身就要做這樣的一個整合平台不管對有潛力的這些大型的這個巨型的這個犬"},{"start":145.366,"end":158.415,"text":"或者是貓的飼主來做宣導另外一個誰要來協助你推廣你的民間的力量全部都要做整合這個才是你今天這個競選總部你要放在你的房間署署本部當中要做這個總部的平台當中最重要的關鍵好我這邊就提點那下一個重點是我們的豬續產"},{"start":165.64,"end":188.04,"text":"好 租蓄產這個部分我個人要對房間署的同仁給予大大的暗聲讚這是一個真的不容易的工作在部長您的提點當中今年5月將成為亞洲唯一喔哇 這個實在太棒了是獲得亞洲唯一能夠去獲得豬瘟口蹄疫非洲豬瘟三大重大病株的"},{"start":188.4,"end":213.268,"text":"非異國 這真的是我要給你拍拍手 真是不容易這個從邊境的管制 防疫 極疫的防治 民間的宣導的繁重工作 這個是房間署同輪中是功不可沒 也就是說好 我們打開國際市場是已經具備全亞洲唯一我可以去這個出口我的這個租資的這樣的一個國家 好"},{"start":214.148,"end":228.499,"text":"第二個 那我們到底生產效益有沒有偏低呢 如果像雞你幾乎都沒有優化的空間了 我們只好進口豬有沒有呢 這張表 我們的這個離乳率從這個離乳率當中70%而已 也就是說我能夠生的"},{"start":235.424,"end":239.027,"text":"我能夠養的也不過是70.9%而已養成的 只能70.9%我們近年來呢 雖從西方營種他這鋰乳豬的頭數幅度增幅不大但是呢 我們的豬肉的育成率是降低的 這句話什麼意思我能夠"},{"start":259.406,"end":264.769,"text":"這個養的頭數增幅不大但是能夠活的成的降低了所以呢而導致我國每公斤的豬肉的成本在跟國際一些領先水準的國家譬如說美國右上角這張圖很明顯就是在我們的最上面藍色的紅色的部分是我國你看到2022年我們每頭豬可以將近80塊"},{"start":287.361,"end":312.608,"text":"好的豬肉成本那最下面那個淺綠色的就是美國他才62塊60幾塊而已所以將近20的差距啊這樣的一個生產成本效益好那我們有沒有高度優化的空間當然有你看這張圖是本辦公室整理出來的我們國際一流的水準的這個種族的這個國家包括前段包括臺灣平均值國際一流我就以剛才的那張圖這個"},{"start":316.09,"end":328.356,"text":"美國跟這個西班牙那以前段的我就以德國好為主你看我們的育成率我們的育成率國際醫療88%前段的88%我們才70%而已如果我育成包括他的成本從第一段的成本65%只有65塊我們竟然可以高達77塊"},{"start":339.341,"end":343.644,"text":"好我們再來看這個數字喔我的年拍賣所得我的再看左邊這個母豬的這個總母豬的這個頭數我50萬隻我50萬隻同樣的50萬隻德國可以多少拍賣總值1億2800多萬同樣50萬隻我的拍賣才827萬差了多少460億同樣50萬隻好那我的這個這個拍賣獲利同樣的50萬隻德國就能夠"},{"start":370.642,"end":392.24,"text":"4500多億的獲利 我們才950多億有沒有空間 當然有啊包括所以連拍賣所的 我們維持台灣現有的母豬有增加461產值我就跟德國比 一樣50萬隻我的獲利 我可以360萬以上的獲利就供給自主面來講 良好的總員跟管理我整體總母豬維持在37萬豬就夠了你看左邊那張圖"},{"start":396.644,"end":410.113,"text":"到這個前段班的第二個37萬的總租你看到右邊我的年拍賣的總值年拍賣的上市投數你看喔在我的前段班的第二個上市投數是800"},{"start":412.194,"end":414.297,"text":"47萬846萬就國內但是我們國內呢只要735萬投訴所以我養37萬隻我就可以打比你現在的上市在市場上交易的還多出100多萬"},{"start":428.678,"end":439.522,"text":"好所以呢這個我甚至都可以補足3%的進口肉類好另外所以發展國內的循環育種的這個系統之下整體產業有望是朝千億的好同樣的37萬同樣的50萬我都有千億的價值在拍賣獲利上都有360以上的拍賣獲利好所以這句話是重點"},{"start":450.626,"end":457.892,"text":"台灣的是熱帶的國家我們很厲害 我們長期育種所以我們台灣的種族是耐熱的所以我只要提高它的育成率就夠了從78% 88%我有注意到您的這個簡報您是現在育種率提高7%"},{"start":469.241,"end":485.034,"text":"但是我們目標就88就好了你7再增加到18就夠了不管你的成本降低 你的拍賣總數 你的上市投入 你的拍賣獲利我們就可以出口了部長這就是您可以大力推動的好"},{"start":486.335,"end":490.456,"text":"那怎麼做我們有個條件的優勢在哪裡看左邊這張圖這張圖的樹狀圖紅色的樹狀圖是代表的我飼養的廠家這10年來2013年到2023年這當中我的廠家一直下降好你看綠色的平均規模我廠家下降但是我飼養的頭數是增加的"},{"start":507.421,"end":520.542,"text":"表示廠跟廠之間整合的時代大型化已經來進行了所以表示你在推動你的AI智慧育種的情況之下你相關的這個政策就可以更容易導入人家說電腦可以幫忙"},{"start":523.165,"end":531.993,"text":"所以現在的AI、大數據、生物科技當中當然可以用基因來達成電腦可以經營所以這是世界先進國家現在的進行制我們現在才剛開始所以目前國際先進的國家均已導入了而且持續進行將基因檢定應用在豬隻的選育配種最後具體要求兩個"},{"start":546.044,"end":561.211,"text":"第一個 請農業部既然你們已經組織單位平台是在房檢署請農業部房檢署提出具體的非營利犬貓鞋褲平台的限制內容管理機制及對應的推廣計畫這是第一個訴求第二個 請農業部提出"},{"start":562.912,"end":576.663,"text":"國家租資續產產業政策這個是你可以出口的第一個參考國際租資生產效益領先國家提出國家租資續產效益提升策略第二個構思由市場競爭機制帶動續產的產業的升級提高我國整體續產的競爭力所以如果你能夠再協調台糖"},{"start":583.948,"end":603.164,"text":"整個兩萬多隻的種豬現在的進口你就馬上導入你這個剛才講的這個整個AI的相關智慧的養殖智慧的育種以及基因檢定之後台糖做其他的大廠一定跟著做或者他沒有競爭力只有透過市場競爭機制來提高我們的產業升級進入我們整體的續產競爭力來提升好這邊我們要求"},{"start":609.349,"end":630.382,"text":"除了兩週內初步來給我來本席辦公室回覆之外因為這個續產的部分我已經溝通台堂了包括你們相關的同仁這我都做完三月三十一要給我給我這兩個方向其實是有共識但是針對第一跟第二整體來講我希望納入第十一屆第四會期的業務報告你這邊的業務報告有針對你的這個施政成果"},{"start":634.665,"end":654.928,"text":"我希望下一次是這兩個施政成果要強限第二個 你的夏惠琦的施政成果當中的施政推動重點因為我怕什麼 你房檢局現在給我訂的時候 署長不配合署長不配合 你很近期署長不配合那不就完蛋了嗎所以要變成重要的施政重點 部長可以嗎"},{"start":655.982,"end":670.01,"text":"我想謝謝委員的這兩個議題這個議題我想第一個我非常支持特別是非營利雪庫的成敗就是對市主的宣導所以這個部分我想我們應該要有一個非常好的一個宣導機制才能夠落實"},{"start":671.05,"end":694.232,"text":"然後有關於那個現在目前雖然是房檢署做那是起頭後續可能就會回歸到願意來協助的一起來努力然後有關於第二個部分租資的部分的預成率他跟他的離乳率跟喪失率是有關的當然那這兩個部分我想我們會努力的去把它弄但是我可不可以請求委員因為你說兩個禮拜我不喜歡就是"},{"start":694.833,"end":722.268,"text":"我支持但是我可以說一定要納入下會期第四會期的業務報告裡面根本委員但是也希望給我們一個月的時間因為我不希望兩個禮拜會變成應付式的提供委員我希望說有一個比較好的一個討論好 部長非常好我們就照部長的這樣指示來作業好 謝謝但是下一屆我們下會期當中這兩項你就要提出你的施政重點還有你的推動成果好 謝謝 以上"},{"start":724.324,"end":725.193,"text":"好 謝謝林黛華"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":85,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時34分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，有兩大議題，第一個繼續關心非營利犬、貓血庫推動的議題，第二個針對臺灣豬畜產的狀態跟您做討論。第一個，我是非常感謝您，您是親自處理非營利犬、貓血庫平臺的建置，但有一個重點是建立推廣總部，去杜絕血液的交易，現在你們是要部本部自己做，那也沒有問題，是由防檢署自行來管理，所以你下面有很多分部。我要提醒部長，這個政策的成敗就是在於推廣跟教育飼主，因為牠不會像人一樣自己來捐血，所以包括你怎麼讓目標有潛力、也願意、有誘因，鼓勵這些大型犬、貓的飼主願意帶出他的狗狗或貓貓出來捐血，這件事情就非常地重要。我先提點你，現在已經有150萬隻植入晶片的狗狗，如何從這個已經現有的資料庫當中，去跟這些飼主宣導以及做一些相關的鼓勵措施，讓他願意來跟你們配合？你是不是願意替牠做一些全面的健檢，這個也是一個誘因，像免費健檢類似這樣，進而跟他推廣這個對狗狗是好的、對貓貓是好的，然後你要跟誰來結合？你要跟獸醫師學會、所有全國的動保團體結合，你們的防檢署本身就要做這樣的整合平臺，不管對有潛力的這些巨型犬，或者是貓的飼主宣導；另外一個誰要來協助你推廣，民間的力量全部都要整合，這個才是今天推廣總部要放在你的防檢署署本部當中，也要做總部平臺當中最重要的關鍵，我這邊就提點。","下一個重點是我們的豬畜產，在豬畜產這部分，我個人要對防檢署同仁給予大大地按讚，這真的不是容易的工作，在部長的提點當中，今年5月將成為亞洲唯一能夠獲得豬瘟、口蹄疫、非洲豬瘟三大重大豬病非疫國，哇！這個實在太棒了！我要給你拍拍手，真是不容易，從邊境管制、疾疫防治、民間宣導的繁重工作，防檢署同仁都是功不可沒，也就是說我們打開國際市場，已經具備全亞洲唯一可以出口豬隻的國家。第二個，我們的生產效益到底有沒有偏低呢？如果像雞，你幾乎都沒有優化的空間，我們只好進口，豬有沒有呢？請看這張表，從離乳到上市的育成率70%而已，也就是說，母豬生的豬仔在離乳之後能夠養成的也不過是70.9%而已。我們近年來雖從西方引種，其離乳豬的頭數增幅不大，但是肉豬育成率是降低的，這句話什麼意思？我能夠養的頭數增幅不大，但是能夠活得成的降低了，導致我國每公斤豬肉的成本跟國際一些領先水準的國家相比，譬如說美國，右上角這張圖很明顯，上面紅色的部分是我國，你看到2022年，我們每頭豬每公斤將近80塊的豬肉成本，最下面淺綠色的就是美國，它才六十幾塊而已，所以將近20的差距，是這樣的生產成本效益。那我們有沒有高度優化的空間？當然有。你看這張圖是本辦公室整理出來的，包括國際一流水準的種豬國家、包括前段生產能力、包括臺灣平均水準等。我就對比剛才的那張圖，國際一流的是美國跟西班牙，前段生產能力的就以德國為主，你看其中的育成率，國際一流是88%，前段生產能力也是88%，我們才70%而已，再看它的成本，國際一流水準的成本只有65塊，我們竟然可以高達77塊。好，我們再來看年拍賣所得，這是以母豬頭數50萬隻來計算，德國可以拍賣多少？總值1,287億，同樣50萬隻，我們的拍賣總值才827億，差了多少？460億！以拍賣獲利相比，同樣50萬隻，德國就能夠有約457億的獲利，我們才九十五億多，有沒有空間？當然有啊！以年拍賣所得來講，維持臺灣現有的母豬規模，可增加460億產值，我們就跟德國比，一樣50萬隻，我們還可以有360億以上的獲利空間。就供給自足面來講，良好的種源跟管理，整體總母豬維持在37萬頭就夠了，你看那張圖，以前段班的第二個來說，37萬頭種豬，再看到右邊年拍賣總值、上市頭數，在前段班的第二個，上市頭數是846萬，但是我們國內只有735萬頭，所以我養37萬隻就可以比現在在市場上交易的還多出一百多萬，甚至都可以補足13%的進口肉類，所以發展國內的循環育種系統的條件下，整體產業有望朝向千億產值，同樣的37萬頭、同樣的50萬頭都有千億的價值，在拍賣獲利上都有360億以上的空間。","好，所以這句話是重點，臺灣是熱帶國家，我們很厲害，我們長期育種，所以我們臺灣的種豬是耐熱的，所以只要提高牠的育成率就夠了，從70%到88%。我有注意到您的簡報，您現在的育成率提高7%，但是我們的目標就只要88%就好了，7%再增加到18%就夠了，不管你的成本降低、拍賣總數、上市頭數、拍賣獲利，我們就可以出口了。部長，這就是您可以大力推動的。","好，那該怎麼做？我們有的條件優勢在哪裡？看左邊這張柱狀圖，紅色代表的是飼養的場家，這十年來，自2013年到2023年，這當中場家一直下降；再看綠色的平均規模，可見場家下降，但是飼養頭數是增加的，表示場跟場之間整合的時代來臨，大型化已經在進行了，表示你們在推動AI智慧育種的情況之下，相關的政策就可以更容易導入。人家說「電腦會選花生」。所以現在AI、大數據生物科技當然可以用基因來達成「電腦也會選豬仔」，這是世界先進國家的現在進行式，我們現在才剛開始。目前國際先進的國家均已導入且持續進行，將基因檢定應用在豬隻的選、育、配種。","最後具體要求兩個，第一個，既然農業部的主責單位平臺是在防檢署，請農業部防檢署提出具體非營利犬、貓血庫平臺建置內容、管理機制及對應的推廣計畫，這是第一個訴求。第二個，請農業部提出國家豬隻畜產產業政策，這個是你們可以出口的，首先參考國際豬隻生產效益領先國家，提出國家豬隻畜產效益提升策略；再者，構思由市場競爭機制帶動畜產產業升級，提高我國整體畜產的競爭力。如果你們現在能夠再協調台糖兩萬多隻的種豬進口，並馬上導入剛才講的AI相關智慧養殖、智慧育種以及基因檢定，台糖做，其他的大廠一定會跟著做，否則他們沒有競爭力，只有透過市場競爭機制提高我們的產業升級，進而提升整體的畜產競爭力。","本席要求，除了兩週內來本席辦公室初步回復之外，因為畜產的部分，我已經溝通台糖了，包括你們相關的同仁，這我都做了，3月31號要給我這兩個方向，這其實有共識。但是針對第一跟第二，整體來講，我希望納入第11屆第4會期的業務報告。你的業務報告中會有施政成果，我希望下一次有這兩個施政成果的呈現；第二個，也列為你們下會期的施政成果當中的施政推動重點，因為我怕你們防檢署現在訂定了之後，署長不配合，如果你很積極，但署長不配合，那不就完蛋了嗎？所以這要變成重要的施政重點，部長可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員提出這兩個議題，這兩個議題我非常支持，特別是第一個，非營利血庫的成敗就是對飼主的宣導，所以我想我們應該要有一個非常好的宣導機制才能夠落實。雖然目前是防檢署做，但那是起頭，後續可能就會回歸到願意協助的一起來努力。","第二個部分，關於豬隻的育成率，跟牠的離乳率、上市率是有關的。"],["林委員岱樺：當然。"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個部分我們會努力的去把它弄好，但是我可不可以請求委員，因為你說兩個禮拜，我不喜歡報告……"],["林委員岱樺：我支持，但是一定要納入下會期（第4會期）的業務報告裡面。"],["陳部長駿季：一定會納入下個會期，但希望給我們一個月的時間，因為我不希望只有兩個禮拜，這會變得應付式的提供委員……"],["林委員岱樺：好，非常好。"],["陳部長駿季：我希望有一個比較好的討論。"],["林委員岱樺：好，部長非常好，我們就照部長說的這樣子來作業。"],["主席：好，請於一個月內回復質詢委員。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。但是下一個會期當中，你就要針對這兩項提出你的施政重點還有推動成果。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員岱樺：好，以上謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。","下一位請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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就是說比如說毒駕酒駕之類的不會一般來講都有其他的事證譬如說在車上有扣到毒品或者是他行車是有不正常的軌跡那他如果發現他有毒品對不對然後呢你就覺得他吸毒是那你叫他採尿液"},{"start":83.8,"end":110.331,"text":"那他不採呢不採在法律上規定是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗那非侵入性是什麼意思當時就是食物上的非侵入性是什麼概念對就是讓他喝水然後排尿那他如果都不喝呢都不喝到後來我們就報請檢察官回到205之一採鑑定許可書"},{"start":112.745,"end":120.243,"text":"那報請檢察官要時間嘛 對不對那我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛 對不對你們認為要"},{"start":123.414,"end":150.954,"text":"趕快採嘛 對不對修這個法是因為我們憲判16號認為說這個部分還是要有這個令狀所以有令狀所以才205-2 205-3才說這個部分有關非侵入性的也是需要經過檢察官的許可所以才增訂了205-2然後-3變成說那個這個處分書的格式許可書的格式裡面是怎麼樣的對 但是現在又認為說這個"},{"start":153.115,"end":180.086,"text":"如果有這個認定,認定我要馬上裁,後來才報檢察官嘛,對不對?那這個認定是給警方或者這個相關的司法警察有很大的裁揚權,是不是?包委,那個是對於,我們現在是這樣子齁我們205-1-2-3是針對具體跟逮捕的,我們範圍已經限縮了那像街頭上的盤查那個部分,那是一定要回歸到強制處分"},{"start":180.626,"end":201.756,"text":"那我們是已經經過 譬如說現場已經有毒品了 那我已經經過居體或逮捕那這個限縮這個範圍的對象是已經經過居體跟逮捕那居體跟逮捕在過去裡面 他如果不想採尿 我們可能就是給他喝水那給他喝水以後 所以才會延伸到111年的憲判16號然後憲判16號下來以後 事實上憲判16號下來以後"},{"start":204.81,"end":219.973,"text":"我們在整個警政署他整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判這個16號的相關規定訂定一個SOP那我們現在只是把它法制化那如果這一個當事人他不服"},{"start":220.615,"end":245.547,"text":"現在的這個規定是 新的規定是說他可以救濟嘛那救濟的話如果檢察官撤銷 撤銷是就是採的這個相關的這個市政就不用了是不是是這個意思是不是是是 不具證據能力那如果說這個不具證據能力 那資檢採的就算啦就是就把它銷毀掉啦那當事人也沒有辦法說你當時為什麼給我採"},{"start":247.95,"end":268.983,"text":"是 所以因為這個範圍已經很限縮到具體逮捕這個範圍已經非常小 具體逮捕那我們現在規範的是非侵入性的只要是侵入性的 可能就要回到205-1的鑑定許可書可能請專業的醫生採尿 導尿 或者是採血液等等這些那現在就是205-2-3 現在最主要在規範這些"},{"start":271.707,"end":297.944,"text":"那205之三司法院,再請司法院的同仁205之三司法院的版本跟行政院的版本我如果從字面上看起來是有一個司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人然後行政院的版本是要出示許可書"},{"start":299.954,"end":323.653,"text":"這兩個的文字上,你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執?像委員報告,之所以司法院版本是規定送交這是因為採刑事訴訟法類似規定的相同法例像34條之一,限制辯護人跟其他被告接見通信的限制書還有103條"},{"start":326.135,"end":352.736,"text":"就是羈押那個押票那還有203條之二這個執行鑑定留置的這個鑑定留置書都是採相同的法例要那個送交那這個也有一個作用就是說那個送交之後呢這個被告或者是犯罪嫌疑人呢他可以依據這個從這個時間點很清楚的就是說提出救濟"},{"start":353.663,"end":368.154,"text":"就說你送交給他的那一個時間點開始對不對是是是嗎是那你們雙方的文字啊這個行政院的版本叫做初試對不對"},{"start":370.31,"end":386.065,"text":"出示這個許可書嗎報告委員我想我想比較我們行政院版跟司法院版的不一樣的地方在於說他們使用送交給執行機關跟受裁員人"},{"start":387.506,"end":407.82,"text":"那這一個動作的話在前面一條就是侵入性的205-1請鑑定人採尿的我們只是希望我們只是出示就是這一個許可書加上出示證件就可以完成了程序同樣的是採尿結果現在新的法律規定205-2卻是要送達"},{"start":410.902,"end":432.088,"text":"送交送交給執行機關以及受採人變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序我們第一線執行的警察一定會搞混到底是要送交不送交其實送交跟救濟沒有關係因為只要強制準備做了以後10天就是他的救濟期間不需要跟205之一有不同的規定"},{"start":432.768,"end":448.462,"text":"我想這是比較接近就是只要出示我們給他許可書然後出示證件這個就可以達到他這個救濟的起點的起算我想就不用再規定這個送交這兩個字那司法員你們雙方的這個就這些文字上的差別"},{"start":449.423,"end":477.404,"text":"像委員在做的那個報告就是說司法院那個版本呢這樣子的出發意旨是為了讓就是被告或是犯罪嫌疑人他的權利更完善那如果說是在第一線的那個執法同仁他們覺得說是就是這樣子會造成他們困擾的話這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持就是說採那個法務部或者是那個內政部警政署他們建議這我們都可以的"},{"start":478.12,"end":495.522,"text":"OK,那這個就進入主條的時候,你們再弄一個,你總不可以說聽的人,叫實際執行的人就在這個文字上在那邊糾結,其實也沒什麼意義啦那最後建議啊,這個以後你們來這裡備詢啊,有人再問個案你不要理他"},{"start":497.557,"end":521.517,"text":"你們怎麼看這裡談個案呢 談到那麼細 談到個別的人 個別的法官 個別的什麼談個案不應該是立法院該處理的 這個到時候你就回答他 個案 委員個案我們不便回答好不好 沒得陷入到那個個案裡頭個案有時候是 講到這裡就好了 謝謝謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時30分）召委，請法務部跟警政署的代表。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["王委員義川：針對今天刑訴法的修正案，我想請問一下，過去在採取尿液檢查的實務上，有沒有未經對方同意或者沒有任何文件就讓當事人立即去採尿液？也就是懷疑他吸毒，就立即請他去採尿液，有沒有發生過這種事？"],["徐次長錫祥：請問一下委員，是指逮捕、拘提的嗎？"],["王委員義川：不是，譬如毒駕、酒駕之類的。"],["徐次長錫祥：不會，一般來講都有其他的事證，譬如在車上有扣到毒品或者行車有不正常的軌跡。"],["王委員義川：如果發現他有毒品，你們會覺得他吸毒，就請他採尿液，倘若他不採呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：依法律上的規定，不採是可以報請檢察官做侵入性的採驗。"],["王委員義川：非侵入性是什麼意思？"],["徐次長錫祥：當時就是……"],["王委員義川：實務上的非侵入性是什麼概念？"],["徐次長錫祥：就是讓他喝水，然後排尿。"],["王委員義川：他如果都不喝呢？"],["林副局長故廷：若都不喝，到後來我們就報請檢察官，回到第二百零五條之一採鑑定許可書。"],["王委員義川：報請檢察官要時間嘛，對不對？"],["林副局長故廷：要時間。"],["王委員義川：我們現在修這個法是因為有些時間緊迫嘛，對不對？你們認為要趕快採，對不對？"],["林副局長故廷：修這個法是因為憲判字第16號認為這個部分還是要有令狀，因為要有令狀，所以第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三才提到有關非侵入性的部分也需要經過檢察官的許可，因此才增訂了第二百零五條之二，而之三是規定許可書的格式要怎麼樣。"],["王委員義川：對，但是現在如果認定要馬上採，後來才報檢察官嘛，對不對？"],["林副局長故廷：是。"],["王委員義川：這個認定是給警方或者相關的司法警察有很大的裁量權，是不是？"],["林副局長故廷：報告委員，我們現在是這樣子，第二百零五條之一、之二、之三是針對拘提跟逮捕的，範圍已經限縮了，像街頭上的盤查部分，那是一定要回歸到強制處分，比如現場已經有毒品，而我們已經經過拘提或逮捕，所以限縮範圍的對象是已經經過拘提跟逮捕。在過去裡面，拘提跟逮捕的如果不想採尿，我們可能就是給他喝水，而給他喝水以後，所以才會衍生到111年的憲判字第16號，事實上憲判字第16號下來以後，警政署整個採尿的一些程序就已經回歸到依照憲判字第16號的相關規定而訂定一個SOP，我們現在只是把它法制化。"],["王委員義川：OK，如果這個當事人不服，依現在的新規定是他可以救濟嘛！"],["林副局長故廷：是。"],["王委員義川：而救濟的話，如果檢察官撤銷，則採的相關事證就不用了，是不是？是這個意思，是不是？"],["林副局長故廷：是，不具證據能力。"],["王委員義川：如果不具證據能力，那之前採的就算了？"],["林副局長故廷：就把它銷毀掉。"],["王委員義川：那當事人也沒有辦法說你們當時為什麼給他採？"],["林副局長故廷：是，因為這個範圍已經很限縮到拘提、逮捕，這個範圍已經非常小，即拘提、逮捕。我們現在規範的是非侵入性的，只要是侵入性的，可能就要回到第二百零五條之一的鑑定許可書，請專業的醫生導尿或者採血液等等，目前第二百零五條之二、之三最主要是在規範這些。"],["王委員義川：再請司法院的同仁。針對第二百零五條之三，司法院的版本跟行政院的版本，我如果從字面上看起來，司法院的版本是送交執行機關及受採取人；行政院的版本是要出示許可書。在這兩個的文字上，你們雙方有什麼樣的爭執啊？"],["王副秘書長梅英：向委員報告，司法院的版本是規定「送交」，是因為採刑事訴訟法有類似這樣規定的相同法例，像第三十四條之一，限制辯護人與羈押之被告接見或通信的限制書；第一百零三條，即羈押的押票；第兩百零三條之二，執行鑑定留置的鑑定留置票，都是採相同的法例要送交。這也有一個作用，就是送交之後，被告或者犯罪嫌疑人可以有依據從這個時間點很清楚地提出救濟。"],["王委員義川：就是以送交給他的那一個時間點開始，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：是嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：但你們雙方的文字，行政院的版本叫做「出示許可書」。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，行政院版跟司法院版不一樣的地方在於，他們使用「送交」給執行機關跟受採驗人，關於這一個動作，在前面一條就是侵入性的第二百零五條之一請鑑定人採尿的，我們希望只是出示，就是許可書加上出示證件就可以完成程序。同樣是採尿，結果現在新的法令規定，即第二百零五條之二卻是要送交給執行機關及受採人，變成跟前面的強制是不一樣的程序，這樣第一線執行的警察一定會搞混，到底是要不要送交？其實送交跟救濟沒有關係，因為只要強制處分做了以後，10天就是他的救濟期間，不需要跟第二百零五條之一有不同的規定，我想這是比較接近的，就是我們給他許可書，然後出示證件，這樣就可以達到他救濟期間的起算，我想就不用再規定「送交」這兩個字。"],["王委員義川：司法院，你們雙方就是這些文字上的差別嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：向委員再做報告，司法院版本的出發意旨是為了讓被告或是犯罪嫌疑人的權利更完善，如果在第一線的執法同仁覺得這樣子會造成他們困擾的話，這個部分司法院其實並沒有堅持，就是採法務部或者內政部警政署的建議我們都可以。"],["王委員義川：OK，那這就在進入逐條的時候，你們再溝通一下，總不能訂定的人跟實際執行的人在這個文字上糾結，其實也沒什麼意義啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：最後，建議以後你們來這裡備詢，有人在問個案時你不要理他。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：你們怎麼可以在這裡談個案呢？談到那麼細，談到個別的人、個別的法官、個別的什麼，談個案不應該是立法院該處理的，到時候你就回答他：委員，個案我們不便回答。好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：不用再陷入到個案裡頭，個案有時候是……說到這裡就好了，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}},{"id":"159600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea343b3faab7d7bc0ecf9336bc333af6bdb0c80eeefacbca121b96fa539d5614b54a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:24:33 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放款有統計進來但是那紙行就漏掉了因為他是依照中國的法令在中國的紙行但是他其實的大股東母公司是國營那那個也統計不到"},{"start":369.179,"end":380.845,"text":"有沒有什麼辦法因為一切的政策的考量要從事實的調查做基礎有沒有辦法把台灣在中國的曝險更清楚更明確的算出來"},{"start":382.387,"end":402.364,"text":"有沒有打算往這個方向來努力?我上次委員在詢問這個問題的時候我們大概那個曝險大概18.5%現在大概降到18%大概又在持續的下降中當然剛剛委員有指證說我們還有其他業態的公司在那邊也有類似做一些獸性的類似獸性的業務我們也持續在關注"},{"start":406.407,"end":435.285,"text":"剛剛就是確實沒有錯我們現在的法令規定說我們現在國營的曝險不可以超過他淨值的一倍那現在大部分的國營剛剛講那個18就是只有占我們淨值的18全體平均當然我們的算法有分子行跟分行的算法分行的話就是用他的壽信同業拆借還有就是他們就是這些的投資但是我們對子行的算法是以他的投資金額為主就投資額為主這兩個標準是有點差異所以我們現在也"},{"start":436.245,"end":458.951,"text":"會來考慮說怎麼樣從實質衡量曝險的角度我們會重新來做一個盤點對 因為這個數字如果精確我們在做一些金融政策上面的時候能夠比較了解真正的狀況是怎麼樣比較接近真實所以這方面要努力再來就是明年一個大課題就是要接這個IFRS17的消耗公報"},{"start":460.271,"end":475.463,"text":"這個目前前兩年是保險業都有提出一些他們不一樣的看法或他有困難啊怎麼樣的難題希望你們能夠暫緩或是給他協力解決這一些這近半年多來這個聲音減少了那減少是因為我們的"},{"start":476.664,"end":489.965,"text":"越來越了解呢協助有成呢還是有什麼其他的因素我這最近比較少聽到這樣子的聲音那個其實沒有新聞就是好新聞嘛就是一樣其實我覺得這個東西就這套制度剛開始實施的時候台灣的利率還是處於低檔"},{"start":491.087,"end":514.629,"text":"那我們現在呢,因為現在利率大家都知道比以前提高了我們保險業最大的一個負債科目就是受到利率的影響我們利率的假設現在提高了所以大家在這個未來接軌iPhone 17的時候呢本來就是它在那個負債的提高本來就是會減輕那當然經過主管機關在這麼多年來不斷的強化做所謂的商品體質的改變"},{"start":515.47,"end":527.688,"text":"他們現在累積了很多商品的轉型其實未來在接軌日那個主力確實小很多其實像陳儒剛才委員所指正的確實我們在這部分在我們現在所有的監控過程當中都非常順利"},{"start":528.925,"end":554.291,"text":"那你譬如說你今天的報告一開始說去年這個各行各金融業這三大行業賺了多少錢這裡面有包括匯差嗎譬如說我在保險公司在美國資產那投資的金額那本來用美金換算那這幾年來台幣是貶值啊所以你再換算成台幣回來的話它就帳面上就增加了很多啊這個有算在這裡面嗎這個我們就是"},{"start":555.191,"end":580.029,"text":"我剛才報告的這個損益數字是財報的損益數字就依據我們現在的會計準則所計算出來的損益數字所以有的有放有的沒放當然會計損益裡面是把匯率的那部分是它的實現跟已實現收入都有考慮在內對那你要知道因為匯率跟這個利率都是不確定的東西改天換台幣升值的時候那是不是就又挨天"},{"start":581.314,"end":605.805,"text":"有時候遇到多的虧損就跑出來啊確實其實我覺得財報的特性就是它是一個中性的它今天的比如說整個經濟環境的波動有時候好有時候壞本來就是它忠實的反映它的真實的狀況所以我也常跟保險院的在提醒今年獲益好其實也不要說就這樣其實也隱含著未來這個波動性"},{"start":607.006,"end":629.265,"text":"有的時候多賺錢是因為剛好就是這個政策的時機問題還是時間點的問題所以不能我們台語在說好天要積福來牛不能每天想說天天都是好天氣非常同意另外就是說你剛剛提到說因為利率是保險業一個很重要的東西利率也是一樣的狀況也是會升降"},{"start":629.825,"end":642.762,"text":"但是如果你擴大能夠在台灣有投資的管道的話至少避險的這一部分的成本可以降低一些啦我們已經採取一些措施來去降低他們的那個避險成本好 這我們需要去努力了加油謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝委員的質詢 下一位請你袁寬文委員質詢 請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":162,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時24分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：彭主委早。最近媒體上常在講因為大法庭對於強制執行的法律見解，所以你們又要修改保險法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我看到媒體上面的報導說你們基本上每一張保單保留各地區的基本生活費3個月的額度，以這樣的額度，超過的才進行強制執行，可是我們執行也要有成本的概念，媒體裡面講說你可以分為戶籍所在地、住所地，然後還可以工作地，都在跨不同的縣市的時候，那變成不同的標準，這樣勞費實在太大了，我們應該要化繁為簡，我提一個idea給你思考，就以全國生活費用最高的地方3個月，以這個做標準，假設全國最高的基本生活費是在臺北市的話，那就以臺北市基本生活費的3個月的標準，全國都一致，那這樣全國的法院就很清楚地了解到這個法律的標準在哪裡，而不是說以生活地、以工作地、以戶籍地都可以來挑一個對債務人最有利，然後就每個個案光是這個就要進入有沒有到達什麼範圍的爭執，這個太浪費勞費了，你來考慮看看這個是否可行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，我想上個禮拜公聽會的時候，因為我另有事沒有參與，不過我仔細地聆聽了各界對這個的看法，誠如剛才委員所指正的，就是說這次的修改保險法，我們是被動地修法，是因為已經衍生了很多的問題，我們必須要去解決這問題，不過在我印象裡，我在保險市場已經快40年的時間，我們過去的保險契約一直都不會構成強制執行的標的，但是111年以後，大法庭的解釋當然就湧出了這麼大的問題，所以金管會責無旁貸，必須要透過立法來解決這個問題。我們在這次的修法草案裡面，剛剛委員的指正，就是這個建議，其實我們就思考了三個非常重要的原則來做這個修法，第一個、社會成本，我們一定要用最低的社會成本來解決這個問題；第二個就是我們要公平地看待債權跟債務人的關係；第三個也很重要，就是我們要確保保險安定社會的功能能夠繼續維持，這三個是我們在考慮的，所以說我們在這裡面，剛剛委員的建議我覺得是可以來思考，因為當時我們會定這樣的法案的內容，因為我們認為過去如果定一個固定的金額可能會隨著時間經過而產生一些變化，那我們就依循強制執行法的概念來用這個，當然它背後有一套解決的方法，剛剛委員也提到了，他有主要生活區域、戶籍地，如果再加上保單還有一個要保人的住所，這些都是一個非常非常難判斷，當然司法院有它一套的解決方法，我覺得委員這個想法說不定我們可以來思考。"],["吳委員秉叡：司法院有解決方法，我們了解啊！但是我舉一個例子，假設我是被強制執行的債務人，我就主張我的戶籍地在新北，我生活、工作地在臺北，假設我還有其他地方，光我這個主張，債權人就可以說不行，你不能用臺北市，你要用新北市的，那就又要進入個案的認定，在強制執行中間其實不需要這麼多的認定，因為這樣子會增加很多的債務人異議之訴，還會增加很多程序上面的攻防，所以我是覺得抓一個一致的標準，當然以全國為一致，因為臺灣現在已經是一日生活圈啦，你要說臺北市3個月大概是七萬多，然後南部大概是5萬，東部可能剩下四萬多，我覺得這樣子，光是為了說這個債權人應該是算在東部還是算在北部，還是北部的臺北市還是新北市，個案你都去逐一認定，那如果大家意見不一樣的時候，就再另外一個訴訟，整個社會的勞費會增加很多，我們應該要考慮司法也有成本，我們做這些執行也有成本，讓投保人將來也可以很清楚地了解說哪一些保險，如果你的保險殘值是超過這個金額，可能會被強制執行，如果你有債務的話，這樣子是比較簡省的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，確實……"],["吳委員秉叡：我說化簡為繁啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實像委員……我剛才提到，如何以最低的社會成本執行這樣的一個效益，我想剛剛那個建議我們會來思考。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個就是我們過去這些年在中國的曝險，大家都是計算國銀──國家的銀行在中國的曝險，金額是逐年下降，也有訂一個標準，逐年下降是可喜可賀，因為要在不穩定的地方，當然風險高的地方儘量曝險要少一點，可是我覺得那個計算有很多的黑數，以前最被常提出來的黑數就是影子銀行，租賃公司的曝險你沒有辦法計算在這裡面，未來租賃公司的納管會越來越嚴格。再來就是國銀，如果它的分行有統計進來，放款有統計進來，但是它的子行就漏掉了，因為它是依照中國的法令在中國的子行，但是它的大股東、母公司其實是國銀，那那個也統計不到，有沒有什麼辦法……因為一切的政策考量要從事實的調查做基礎，有沒有辦法把臺灣在中國的曝險更清楚、更明確地算出來？有沒有打算往這個方向來努力？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，就是上次委員在詢問這個問題的時候，我們的曝險大概18.5，現在大概降到18，又在持續地下降中。當然剛剛委員有指正說，我們還有其他業態的公司在那邊有做一些類似授信的業務，我們也持續在關注。確實沒有錯，我們現在的法令規定說我們現在國銀的曝險不可以超過它淨值的一倍，現在大部分的國銀……剛剛講那個18就是只有占我們全體平均淨值的18，當然我們的算法有分子行跟分行的算法，分行的話就是用它的授信、同業拆借，還有就是他們這些的投資，但是我們對子行的算法是以它的投資淨額為主，就投資額為主，這兩個標準是有點差異，所以我們現在也會來考慮說怎麼樣從實質衡量曝險的角度，我們會重新來做一個盤點。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，因為這個數字如果精確，我們在做一些金融政策上面的時候，能夠比較了解真正的狀況是怎麼樣，比較接近真實，所以這方面要努力。再來就是明年一個大課題，就是要接IFRS 17的17號公報，前2年保險業都有提出一些他們不一樣的看法或是有困難、怎麼樣的難題，希望你們能夠暫緩或是給它協力解決，近半年多來這個聲音減少了，減少是因為我們越來越了解、協助有成，還是有什麼其他的因素？我最近比較少聽到這樣的聲音。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實沒有新聞就是好新聞，就是一樣，其實我覺得這個東西，就這套制度剛開始實施的時候，臺灣的利率還是處於低檔，因為現在利率大家都知道比以前提高了，我們保險業最大的一個負債科目就是受到利率的影響，我們利率假設現在提高了，所以大家在未來接軌IFRS 17的時候，本來就是它在負債的提撥會減輕，當然經過主管機關這麼多年來不斷地強化做所謂的商品體質的改變，他們現在累積了很多商品的轉型，其實像未來在接軌日，那個阻力確實小很多，其實誠如剛剛委員所指正的，確實我們在這部分，在我們現在所有的監控過程當中都非常順利。"],["吳委員秉叡：譬如說你今天的報告一開始說去年各行各金融業，這三大行業賺了多少錢，這裡面有包括匯差嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然都包括。"],["吳委員秉叡：譬如說保險公司在美國置產，那投資的金額，本來用美金換算，這幾年來臺幣是貶值，所以你再換算成臺幣回來的話，它帳面上就增加了很多，這個有算在這裡面嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才報告的損益數字是財報的損益數字，就依據我們現在的會計準則所計算出來的損益數字。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以有的有放、有的沒放，如果有重估的就有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然會計損益裡面，匯率的那部分是它的實現跟已實現收入都有考慮在內。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，那你要知道，因為匯率跟利率都是不確定的東西，改天換臺幣升值的時候，那是不是又要說一大堆的虧損又跑出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，其實我覺得財報的特性就是它是一個中性的，比如說整個經濟環境的波動，有時候好、有時候壞，本來就是忠實地反映它真實的狀況，所以我也常常跟保險業提醒，今年獲益好其實也不要說就這樣，其實也隱含著未來波動性，所以……"],["吳委員秉叡：就是有的時候多賺錢是因為剛好就是政策的時機問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：還有就是時間點的問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，所以我們臺語在說「好天著存雨來糧」，不能每天想說天天都是好天氣……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒錯，非常同意。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外就是你剛剛提到因為利率是保險業一個很重要的東西，利率也是一樣的狀況，也是會升降。"],["彭主任委員金隆：也是波動的。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是如果你能夠在臺灣擴大投資管道的話，至少避險這部分的成本可以降低一些，這是我們需要去努力的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經採取一些措施來降低他們的避險成本。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，這是我們需要去努力的，加油。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員的質詢。","下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea342ada0465f2e4a6f49336bc333af6bdb0c80eeefacbca121b86cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:12:15 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謝謝委員的這個詢問我想剛剛也提到其實金管會一向針對國際的情勢都有寄予高度的關注 剛才特別是美國的相關政策對我們的資本市場的影響剛才陳儒 剛才委員所詢問的我們也有關注到 比如說這個美國政府在"},{"start":72.718,"end":98.651,"text":"幾次對於關稅這個政策的這些的宣布以後對台灣資本市場的影響我們也看到其實像這個影響是有但是相對的台股還是表現出相對的韌性那很快的就做一個回應然後又恢復到一個比較穩定的狀態這種持續會密切關注所以說那個以主委的觀察是認為說還是非常有信心"},{"start":99.771,"end":118.758,"text":"當然我覺得過去台灣的資本市場表現出它有特有的韌性我想從過去這一年來那當然從今年開始我們就因為跟隨國際股市的一些的變化有一些波動但是還在一個合理我們認為是一個健全的範圍之內"},{"start":120.157,"end":137.646,"text":"那你認為有機會反彈嗎因為外資都在賣超啊幾乎啊這個大家看外資在賣超可能就是那個信心啊就是比較沒有那樣的信心依主委您的看法呢"},{"start":138.727,"end":157.724,"text":"各位報告我在這裡講過很多次金管會不會對未來的市場做任何的預期不過我們也關注到了外資在過去呢是比較站在比較偏賣方但實際上我覺得國際資本的流動本來就是有來有去我們整個外資的持股的水位並沒有做很明顯的改變"},{"start":158.462,"end":176.161,"text":"那要是說四月份這個關稅尤其是川普針對關稅要去做處理那你有什麼看法呢其實我們也很密切的關注像我們有責成我們的交易所跟櫃買中心針對我們所有上市櫃公司有做一些了解"},{"start":176.721,"end":195.789,"text":"其實我們覺得在這些影響的部分都還在可控範圍之內我們也有密切關注比如說我們上市櫃公司在各個主要會受到關稅影響的這些國家比如說它的營收的比例大概佔的比例以及影響我們都有做一些監控我覺得都還在一個就是我們可以預期的範圍之內主委"},{"start":197.799,"end":217.758,"text":"你說未來一年全球的經濟情勢都有大波動在不確定性成為常態之下金管會將對資本市場保持高度的關注那我請問主委因您的看法這個不確定性高的川普政策對未來整個台股有利還是不利"},{"start":219.59,"end":234.099,"text":"要跟委員再報告一下就是說金管會所關注的就是當然我們主要是維持我們資本市場的公平性資訊的透明以及穩定性任何一件事情我們都無法去做非常精準的預測但是我們都會做"},{"start":235.2,"end":247.374,"text":"萬全就是萬全的準備我想這個部分我們還是一樣本質這樣一個市場監理的態度來進行這個市場監理所以說那個主委如果要是不立的話你認為台股空投會不會成為今年的常態會不會"},{"start":250.065,"end":272.726,"text":"這個我沒辦法做這個預期不過我想這個市場的組成是有很多很多的面向所構成我想美國的因素是一個那其實還有很多很多的因素都要考慮那有些有正有反我們只要確保這個市場能夠充分反映各項訊息然後讓所有的投資人參與者得到一個公平交易的環境主委"},{"start":273.286,"end":295.196,"text":"因為去年川普當選預期性的政策有不確定性的而導致台股下跌當時金管會信心喊話表示川普新政造成台股短期的震盪但中長期看來能將回饋他的基本面那我請問主委川普政策的不確定性陳常態你認為"},{"start":297.458,"end":314.791,"text":"國際金融市場負面影響會不會變成短期的常態會不會我想其實國際情勢的變化除了我們大家關注的美國因素以外其實過去一直不缺這些不確定性的因素其實剛才委員講的非常的這個我非常認同就是"},{"start":315.652,"end":336.027,"text":"其實我們所有的股市消息面會影響最終還是回歸到基本面我想就我們看到數據來看台灣的這些上市櫃公司截至二月的營收還是比過去還是有非常顯著的成長我想這個部分這個很多面向我們要一起考慮主委"},{"start":338.149,"end":362.001,"text":"因為金融市場的負面影響對整個國際股市會不會產生連帶的負面效應會不會那當然我剛剛跟委員報告過了任何一件事情因為我們的資本市場是非常非常敏銳的而且它會捕捉任何的消息但是隨著消息面被去化以後就像我們看到很多消息面出來會有影響但是一旦把它落底以後呢大家還是回歸到基本面去看這個問題"},{"start":362.967,"end":383.244,"text":"主委因為川普政策目前帶來的不確定性反映出對未來整個經濟負面的餘力所以說股市向下震盪也屬於是正常那我請問不確定的政策會不會對經濟產生一些負面遞延的效應會不會其實"},{"start":384.894,"end":402.971,"text":"這個我們在學理上不確定本身來講它代表了一個機會跟威脅的均等關係所以其實不確定某某程度也是代表一個機會點就像葉文提到不確定的確定理論他的意思是說你面對不確定你必須採取一個相對應可能比較確定的一些的做法我想"},{"start":403.872,"end":430.623,"text":"市場永遠面對不確定市場最不確定的就是不確定但是我們就是要做這個資訊的特別的充分的揭露以及我們整個交易制度的健全的方面去著手主委你說中長期看來將回歸基本面那我請問主委你所謂的中長期到底具體的條件有哪些如果經濟呈現負面你認為整個回歸基本面的台股將會呈現哪種的狀態"},{"start":433.055,"end":450.995,"text":"其實我覺得這基本面表現在很多很多的面向上比如說我們有關注我們有請我們的交易所去關注過去各個產業歷年來它的營收成長的變化我們長期觀察台灣這麼多產業裡面將近30個產業別裡面大概大部分都是營收持續成長比如我最近"},{"start":451.836,"end":475.379,"text":"收到訊息大概有25個產業是成長大概六七個是呈現衰退我想這個部分就是一個基本面一個很好的呈現我想這也反映在台灣股市的韌性上面所以說主委很有信心是不是我想我對我們的資本市場我一直覺得我們站在監理者來看的話我們是對我們這個制度我們永遠保持戒慎恐懼但是呢我們一定是小心應對"},{"start":476.584,"end":504.433,"text":"主委因為美國宣布將開徵對等的關稅根據媒體的報導印度、越南被點名可能列入骯髒15國的名單那預計整個國營在當地換款動人將受到衝擊那我請問主委4月2日川普將公布的關稅清單為什麼對本國銀行海外分行"},{"start":505.433,"end":532.966,"text":"放款動態會發生有哪些的衝擊呢其實我們面對到這樣的一個變化我們也很快速的去了解一下我們國營在海外放款的這些的對於特別有被可能會被點名的這些國家地區的放款其實都在一個非常我們覺得可控的比率其實這個比率並沒有很高占全體國營的放款比率其實我們會持續的關注但是我們這個議題要關注那你認為這些海外分行"},{"start":535.387,"end":557.204,"text":"是不是有哪些因應的方法當然我覺得這部分因為它會加徵關稅以後一定會對它的某些特定產業的出口的競爭力變差那出口競爭力變差以後當然它可能未來它的營收的部分也會受到影響這個在我們銀行在做貸房有它一定的SOP我想這些他們會逐步的考慮進去"},{"start":557.864,"end":571.801,"text":"主委從軍控從事海外換款主要三大主體包括銀行的海外分行OBU整個國際金融業務分行吉亞主任公司那請問主委你認為"},{"start":573.543,"end":592.763,"text":"這三大主體海外的換款業務哪個主體受到關稅戰的衝擊最大當然這要看不同地區啦因為現在關稅戰也並不是說全面式的它可能比如說我們在全球分工的時候有些國家地區專注在某些領域上它可能雖然是"},{"start":593.844,"end":609.309,"text":"這樣受到影響還有就是我們要看我們銀行放款的對象是誰這很難以概而論不過我們覺得我們都會督促我們的國營要密切注意這個國際形勢的變化我們強調分散我們的風險那這部分呢是我們應對不確定最重要的一個主委啊"},{"start":609.949,"end":633.067,"text":"根據中華信憑分析公股銀行與民營的銀行皆在尋求較高利差的海外市場的區域但今年整個政策變數不確定性風險非常高在風險可控的範圍內採取審慎策略策略的不確定性也增添整個金融業"},{"start":634.128,"end":647.838,"text":"整個海外市場獲利的風險那我請問主委選擇採取調整換款不同區域成長比重或者利用全球產業鏈產業變遷以及供應鏈移轉的商機同時適時的來調整整個換款的組合你認為哪種方式比較能夠因應關稅戰下的衝擊"},{"start":660.126,"end":676.397,"text":"我想其中有很多很多的方法分散絕對是一個很有效的方法產業別的分散、地區別的分散還有業務範圍的分散我想站在風險觀的角度分散永遠是一個我們最常用而且比較容易取得的一個方法"},{"start":677.182,"end":704.293,"text":"最後因為高利率環境以及疫情後商辦出租率下降12年第四季就出現國營通報海外不動產受信重大的預放案導致去年發生歐美商辦受信踩雷那我請問主委你認為在川普政策不確定性下的海外市場受信踩雷的機率會不會提高"},{"start":705.033,"end":721.918,"text":"我想這個部分這個過去我們也關注到這個議題主要是因為疫情過後很多對上班的需求會下降這部分當然每次的因素是不一樣的所以我們會持續來關注這個問題就是最重要如何避免踩雷最重要謝謝謝謝林德武委員的質詢下一個請吳秉瑞委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":122,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時12分）謝謝主席，是不是請金管會彭主委？"],["主席：彭主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早安。"],["林委員德福：主委，你好。主委，我請教，因為你曾說今年的股市主要變數包括川普上任，影響國際金融市場甚大，甚至多項變數包括美國聯準會的利率政策，及對股市有所影響，金管會都會去關注。主委，臺股由年初兩萬三千九百多點的高點，到今天大盤向下來回震盪兩千多點，請問主委，你認為這是不是川普關稅戰導致臺股大盤提前反映整個空頭的行情？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員的詢問。我剛剛也提到，其實金管會一向針對國際情勢都有寄予高度的關注，特別是美國相關政策對我們資本市場的影響，誠如剛才委員所詢問的，我們也有關注到比如美國政府在幾次對於這些關稅政策宣布以後對臺灣資本市場的影響，我們也看到實際上這個影響是有的，但是臺股還是表現出相對的韌性，很快就做一個回應，然後又恢復到一個比較穩定的狀態，我們會持續密切關注。"],["林委員德福：所以以主委的觀察，認為還是非常有信心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我覺得臺灣的資本市場從過去這一年來表現出它特有的韌性，當然從今年開始，我們因為跟隨國際股市的變化而有一些波動，但是還在一個我們認為是合理及健全的範圍之內。"],["林委員德福：你認為有機會反彈嗎？因為外資幾乎都在賣超，大家看外資在賣超，可能就比較沒有信心，依主委您的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我在這裡講過很多次，金管會不會對未來市場做任何的預期，不過我們也關注到外資在過去比較站在偏賣方，但實際上國際資本的流動本來就是有來有去，整個外資的持股水位並沒有很明顯的改變。"],["林委員德福：要是4月份的關稅，尤其是川普針對關稅要做處理，你有什麼看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們也很密切關注，像我們有責成交易所跟櫃買中心，針對所有上市櫃公司做一些了解，我們覺得這些影響的部分都還在可控範圍之內，並有密切關注，對於上市櫃公司在各個主要會受到關稅影響的這些國家，比如它的營收大概占的比率以及影響，我們都有做一些監控，都還在一個可以預期的範圍之內。"],["林委員德福：主委，你說未來一年全球的經濟情勢都有大波動，在不確定性成為常態之下，金管會將對資本市場保持高度關注，我請問主委，依您的看法，這個不確定性高的川普政策，對未來整個臺股是有利，還是不利？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員再報告一下，金管會所關注的，當然我們主要是維持資本市場的公平性、資訊的透明以及穩定性，任何一件事情我們都無法非常精準的預測，但是我們都會做萬全的準備，我想這個部分我們還是一樣秉持市場監理的態度進行市場的管理。"],["林委員德福：主委，要是不利的話，你認為臺股空頭會不會成為今年的常態？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我沒辦法做預期，不過市場的組成是由很多面向所構成，我想美國的因素是一個，其實還有很多因素都要考慮，有正有反，我們只要確保這個市場能夠充分反映各項訊息，讓所有投資參與者得到一個公平交易的環境。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為去年川普當選，預期性的政策有不確定性而導致台股下跌，當時金管會信心喊話表示，川普新政造成臺股短期的震盪，但中長期看來仍將回歸基本面。請問主委，川普政策的不確定性變成常態，你認為國際金融市場負面影響會不會變成短期的常態？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想國際情勢的變化，除了大家關注的美國因素以外，其實過去一直不缺這些不確定性的因素。剛才委員所講的我非常認同，就是所有的股市會受到消息面影響，但最終還是回歸到基本面。就以我們的數據來看，臺灣這些上市櫃公司截至2月的營收比過去還是有非常顯著的成長，我想這個部分有很多面向我們要一起考慮。"],["林委員德福：主委，金融市場的負面影響對整個國際股市會不會產生連帶的負面效應？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛跟委員報告過了，因為我們的資本市場是非常敏銳的，而且它會捕捉任何的消息，但是隨著消息面被去化以後，就像我們看到很多消息面出來會有影響，但是一旦把它落底以後，大家還是回歸到基本面去看問題。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為川普政策目前帶來的不確定性反映出對未來整個經濟負面的疑慮，所以股市向下震盪也屬正常，請問不確定的政策會不會對經濟產生一些負面遞延的效應？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實在學理上不確定本身代表了機會跟威脅的均等關係，所以實際上不確定在某種程度上也是代表一個機會點，就像也有人提到不確定的確定理論，他的意思是說，面對不確定你必須採取相對應可能比較確定的一些作法，我想市場永遠面對不確定，市場最不缺的就是不確定，我們就是要從資訊充分揭露以及整個交易制度健全的方面去著手。"],["林委員德福：主委，你說中長期看來將回歸基本面，請問主委，你所謂的中長期到底具體的條件有哪些？如果經濟呈現負面，你認為整個回歸基本面的台股將會呈現哪種狀態？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我覺得基本面表現在很多面向上，比如我們有請我們的交易所關注過去各個產業歷年來營收成長的變化，我們長期觀察臺灣這麼多產業，在將近三十個產業別裡面，大概大部分都是營收持續成長，比如我最近收到訊息有25個產業是成長的，大概6、7個是呈現衰退，這個部分就是一個基本面很好的呈現，我想這也反映在臺灣股市的韌性上面。"],["林委員德福：所以主委很有信心是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於我們的資本市場，我一直覺得我們站在監理者的角度來看的話，對於這個制度我們永遠保持戒慎恐懼，但我們一定是小心應對。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為美國宣布將開徵對等關稅，根據媒體報導，印度、越南被點名可能列入骯髒15國的名單，預計整個國銀在當地放款的動能將受到衝擊。請問主委，4月2日川普將公布的關稅清單，對本國銀行海外分行放款動態會發生哪些衝擊呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：面對這樣的變化，我們也很快速地去了解我們國銀在海外放款的狀況，對於可能會被點名的這些國家地區的放款，其實都在我們覺得可控的比例，這個比例占全體國銀的放款比例並沒有很高，我們會持續地關注，但是這個議題我們……"],["林委員德福：你認為這些海外分行是不是有哪些因應的方法？有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：針對這部分，因為加徵關稅以後一定會使得它某些特定產業的出口競爭力變差，在出口競爭力變差以後，當然未來它營收的部分可能也會受到影響，我們銀行在做放貸時有一定的SOP，我想這些他們會逐步的考慮進去。"],["林委員德福：主委，金控從事海外放款三大主體包括銀行海外分行、OBU（國際金融業務分行）及租賃公司，請問主委，你認為在這三大主體海外的放款業務當中，哪個主體受到關稅戰的衝擊最大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這要看不同地區，因為現在關稅戰並不是全面式的，比如說我們在全球分工的時候，有些國家或地區專注在某些領域上，雖然它可能會因此受到影響，但我們要看銀行放款的對象是誰，這很難一概而論。不過我們都會督促我們的國銀要密切注意國際情勢的變化，我們強調分散風險，這部分是我們應對不確定因素最重要的方法之一。"],["林委員德福：主委，根據中華信評分析，公股銀行與民營銀行皆在尋求較高利差的海外市場區域，但今年整個政策變數不確定性風險非常高，在風險可控的範圍內採取審慎策略，策略的不確定性也增添金融業整個海外市場獲利的風險。請問主委，選擇採取調整放款不同區域成長比重，或者利用全球產業變遷以及供應鏈移轉的商機，同時適時調整整個放款組合，你認為哪種方式比較能夠因應關稅戰下的衝擊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想其中有很多方法，分散絕對是一個很有效的方法，產業別的分散、地區別的分散，還有業務範圍的分散，我想站在風險管理的角度，分散永遠是我們最常用而且比較容易取得的方法。"],["林委員德福：最後，因為高利率環境以及疫情後商辦出租率下降，112年第4季就出現國銀通報海外不動產授信重大逾放案，導致去年發生歐美商辦授信踩雷。請問主委，你認為在川普政策不確定性下的海外市場，授信踩雷的機率會不會提高？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去我們也關注到這個議題，主要是因為疫情過後對商辦的需求會下降，這部分當然每次的因素是不一樣，所以我們會持續來關注這個問題。"],["林委員德福：最重要就是如何避免踩雷，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢。","下一位請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林思銘","黃珊珊","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143101_00007"}}},{"id":"159598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8cb7ec0b2cd1ea34186154e7630f494bae9eb35b51f79668c80eeefacbca121bc7b66ba030a8f37c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:14:55 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所以要給檢察官定我後來恍然大悟啊"},{"start":147.236,"end":170.683,"text":"為什麼會沒有定執行刑不需要定執行刑不需要定執行刑為什麼不需要定執行刑根本沒打算執行根本沒打算執行我上一次正在這邊執行的時候在那邊站的是法務部部長我還問到中文字的案子結果離譜成什麼樣子棄保險逃了"},{"start":173.72,"end":191.492,"text":"那時候我看到這個新聞我不敢自信啊因為諸葛龍案以後第一個被電子監控的就是中文字啊結果竟然跑了我在想是他破壞電子監控設備嗎我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝結果"},{"start":193.972,"end":219.359,"text":"結果原來是高院說增加保證金2000萬就好了電子監控不用再搞下去了第一個問請教司法院之前我一直在追法學資料檢索系統判決裁定要完整公開請問在2024年10月的時候增加交保金額的裁定就關鍵嘛增加交保金額不用電子監控這個裁定為什麼不公開為什麼隱匿不公開"},{"start":227.913,"end":249.946,"text":"丟臉嗎丟臉嗎要迴避公眾監督嗎來請司法院副秘書長看啊這個是我今天早上來質詢以前我在check我找這個裁定找半天啊不敢讓社會大眾知道啊只有提高交保金啊不用電子監控啊去年我們在質詢司法院的時候信誓旦旦啊"},{"start":250.891,"end":258.234,"text":"說沒有現在的判決裁定啊全部公開沒有隱匿了來先說明一下去年10月的這個裁定到哪裡去了報告委員這個裁定依法是應該要公開的那為什麼沒公開剛好就這麼剛好你有沒有看到我整理出來的東西啊是這直接截圖我沒剪貼啊裁定到哪裡去了"},{"start":281.297,"end":307.769,"text":"事情大調了還是一開始法官就心虛連裁定都不敢公開可以腐敗成這個樣子喔回去三天之內把裁定公開上網可不可以太離譜了啦就剛好是中文字就剛好是不用電子假聊的裁定連公開都沒有公開"},{"start":309.246,"end":323.897,"text":"更離譜的是什麼結果事情發生了以後司法院跟法務部啊繼續裝忙從出國開始就在裝忙到現在還在裝忙來我先問清楚喔當初"},{"start":325.29,"end":347.198,"text":"朱國隆當初中文字要不要電子監控的時候來 請教一下法務部高檢署到底有沒有明確的表示應該要繼續施以電子設備監控有還是沒有有有嘛來 再請司法院司法院為什麼你們發的新聞稿是檢察官沒意見誰在說謊誰在說謊"},{"start":352.27,"end":369.476,"text":"現在法務部喔 說高檢署說喔有要求要繼續電子監控喔但是我們從高等法院這邊所看到的聲明說檢察官沒意見 誰在說謊連我們的司法機關都可以公開說謊喔 誰在說謊說清楚 請司法院誰在說謊 請司法院不敢講話喔 誰在說謊"},{"start":383.479,"end":394.844,"text":"主席時間暫停啦我問了一個具體的問題沒有回答問題在浪費時間想要用拖的確認什麼啊這問題我發文問多久啦我發文問多久啦不知道今天來要面對這個問題嗎誰說謊"},{"start":413.746,"end":416.388,"text":"好 那可以回答了嗎 可以回答我們時間就繼續誰說謊為什麼高院跟社會大眾講說檢察官沒意見誰說謊"},{"start":429.764,"end":445.932,"text":"黃委員我們先要繼續嗎我等他回答因為立委的詢問現在大家可能看了還以為畫面在靜止因為如果說不知道那你要必須回答不知道而不是說沒有回答麻煩你們"},{"start":447.939,"end":462.673,"text":"這個部分據高院的那個回覆是說他們在詢問那個檢察署的時候那個高檢是回覆說那個沒有意見對啊所以嘛現在法務部他不就打臉了所以我現在要你們兩邊對清楚啊現在誰說謊請問誰說謊"},{"start":472.142,"end":496.396,"text":"我想跟委員報告齁這個在10月9號高院公訴檢察官力挺的時候已經很明確記載我這樣講好了啦一個禮拜之內請法務部跟司法院各自提出你們的證據可以可以嗎可以兩邊都可以嗎可以一個禮拜之內提出證據看誰在說謊這件事情一定要追究責任到底來"},{"start":498.178,"end":526.216,"text":"結果這個傢伙很扯給他解除電子監控整個社會大眾講說現在是對還是不對這個人之前已經棄保潛逃過還遭到通緝通緝期間還冒名使用他人護照非法出境兩次這種人二審判刑那麼重結果可以不用電子監控這到底是怎麼回事我就開始追了我上一次去年的時候"},{"start":527.455,"end":555.805,"text":"我們司法院的秘書長說高院可以施壓迴避喔可以施壓迴避喔刑事訴訟法有施壓迴避嗎結果司法院極盡包庇之能事極盡包庇之能事我在司法法治委員會問這個問題的時候還有民進黨的立委跑出來擋所以立委不可以問司法院這個問題奇怪在法治面上我國刑事訴訟法何時規定施壓迴避"},{"start":558.939,"end":580.933,"text":"不喜歡的法官 就施壓 叫他迴避不是申請迴避 申請迴避被最高法院駁回了然後呢 高院的庭長跑去施壓他哇 這個中文字有通天的本領啊結果施壓迴避了以後 施壓的那個高院的行政庭庭長司法院有做任何處分嗎"},{"start":582.538,"end":609.039,"text":"還是司法院要告訴全體全國高院的法官以後大家都可以施壓有樣學樣沒有關係司法院不會管來請司法院表明立場有關於這個部分呢就是司法院做過調查之後呢那個調查報告我看啊那個受訪的法官說什麼被問的法官他是不是說他覺得被施壓調查報告你有看嗎"},{"start":610.752,"end":628.899,"text":"有閱讀了對啊那個被施壓的法官說什麼說沒有啦 廠長只是關心我他沒有施壓啦那個法官是這樣講的嗎還是他覺得很不舒服被施壓那法官怎麼說的那個"},{"start":630.669,"end":660.021,"text":"就那個紀法官他當時就是第一個時間點的那個因為他接到那個電話據他所說那個接到電話的時候時間很短那後來的時候呢他的審判長也有再去求證那可能是雙方對於這件事情的解讀這樣子就輕輕帶過去了雙方的解讀不一樣法官覺得被施壓庭長說我只是去關心我們追求司法審判獨立多久了"},{"start":661.26,"end":689.43,"text":"台灣喔 台灣人追求司法審判獨立多久了沒想到以前中國國民黨一黨專政搞的事情啊在民進黨推動司法改革以後繼續上演可以湊成這個樣子更離譜的事情是什麼 就這張圖仔細看當初被施壓的法官他說要電子監控結果呢結果人家心灰意冷不如歸去啊他把法官給辭了"},{"start":691.257,"end":719.538,"text":"非常優秀的法官他不幹了他不幹了可以這樣施壓我沒有任何的結論司法院沒有任何的作為這個法官不幹了結果不幹了非常厲害換另外一個法官就是這個法官解除電子監控的結果中文字很厲害中文字找的律師都很有來歷"},{"start":721.304,"end":749.498,"text":"幫他解除電子監控的那位律師 邱昌宏律師之前是不是最高法院的院長是吧洪昌宏對 洪昌宏律師最高法院的庭長他庭長嘛 是邱宗義是不是他的庭員在統一庭 沒錯沒有錯嘛 是現在喔從高院到檢察官大家非常憤怒大家非常憤怒喔"},{"start":750.868,"end":778.979,"text":"周文哲去找一個之前的庭長來當辯護人結果他之前的庭員就給他解除電子監控這件事情司法院有沒有下去調查有沒有下去調查調查有關於那個選任辯護人不是啦調查憑什麼給他解除電子監控這個事情不用調查嗎還是覺得司法院沒有關係這個是審判獨立"},{"start":781.209,"end":805.578,"text":"高院自家的法官可以去施壓下面的法官然後這種社會矚目群情劃然的案件司法院認為沒有必要調查司法院的標準是這樣嗎是這樣嗎這件事要不要調查我打開天窗說亮話這是法官跟檢察官跟我檢舉的"},{"start":808.248,"end":833.878,"text":"這是法官跟檢察官跟我檢舉的司法院都沒有掌握高等法院都不用提檢討還是沒有關係跟社會大眾講我們司法院會繼續開會研議如何精進防逃兩年前那一套那一套宮廷系繼續搬出來演一次就好了司法院要不要調查"},{"start":836.496,"end":851.13,"text":"就給一個答案嘛你不要調查就勇敢跟我說我司法院就不會調查嘛這件事情就放水流嘛我司法院現在就是毫無作為擺爛到底嘛要不然你要怎麼樣說清楚要不要調查"},{"start":852.683,"end":881.969,"text":"有關於那個裁定的那個部分這部分確實是涉及那個法官審判那個獨立的部分那如果說在司法行政部分有違釋的話很厲害嘛所以你們司法院很厲害啊行政庭長去施壓法官你們調查下去真的有被施壓沒有關係結果法官氣得不幹換另外一個法官就幫他解除電子簽禁哇原來綠色權貴啊再走法院啊是暢通無形啊"},{"start":883.581,"end":908.771,"text":"配合的很好啊不用給社會大眾一個交代還是司法院我就擺爛 要不然你要怎麼樣嘛為什麼人民啊對司法的信任越來越低啊搞了七年的司法改革啊搞出這種垃圾出來"},{"start":911.107,"end":925.959,"text":"我很清楚的講我在國會殿堂非常負責任的講不是只有我憤怒一堆檢察官一堆法官大家都很憤怒到底發生什麼事啊剛答應的喔兩邊誰說謊兩邊誰說謊一個禮拜之內各自提出證據下一次質詢的時候我繼續追究謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":169,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時15分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院副秘書長、法務部政務次長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘，麻煩次長。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位，上一次朱國榮這種有錢有勢的人棄保潛逃，整個社會非常憤怒，那時候我們的司法院跟法務部大家都在裝忙，說要開會討論精進防逃措施，司法院發了新聞稿、開了會；最高檢察署發了新聞稿，說要防逃，說絕對不可以再讓他們跑，要提升科技監控使用的效能。這個是之前在2023年的時候發生的事情。","結果咧？結果跑了一個朱國榮以後，從司法院到法務部，全部的人都在裝忙，要開會精進，沒想到我們的綠色權貴、洗錢大亨關係非常好，從一開始的時候幫寶和會這種暴力黑幫辦特見，讓老大去看小弟、付安家費，一通電話就搞定，腐敗得不得了！我一路追下來，結果這個人厲害的地方還不僅於此，交保的時候是民進黨的議員去幫忙辦交保，審判的時候是民進黨的立委幫他推動修法，想要脫罪，這些全部都是客觀事實。","我盯這個案子盯了好幾年，我本來以為朱國榮跑了以後，不會離譜到連鍾文智都放掉吧？結果好不容易等到三審定讞，判決確定合計30年5個月，30年的有期徒刑。最高法院沒有定執行刑，說要給檢察官定，我後來恍然大悟，為什麼會沒有定執行刑、不需要定執行刑？為什麼不需要定執行刑？根本沒打算執行。","我上一次站在這邊質詢的時候，在那邊站著的是法務部部長，我還問到鍾文智的案子，結果離譜成什麼樣子？棄保潛逃。那個時候我看到這個新聞不敢置信，因為朱國榮案以後，第一個被電子監控的就是鍾文智，就是鍾文智啊！結果他竟然跑了，我在想是他破壞電子監控設備嗎？我非常地驚訝，結果原來是高院說增加保證金2,000萬就好了，電子監控不用再搞下去了。","第一個，請教司法院，之前我一直在追法學資料檢索系統的判定裁定要完整公開，請問在2024年10月的時候，增加交保金額的裁定，關鍵就是增加交保金額、不用電子監控這個裁定為什麼不公開？為什麼隱匿不公開？丟臉嗎？要迴避公眾監督嗎？請司法院副秘書長看，這個是我今天早上質詢以前再check，我找這個裁定找半天，不敢讓社會大眾知道只有提高交保金、不用電子監控。去年我們在質詢司法院的時候，你們信誓旦旦地說沒有，現在的判決裁定全部公開，沒有隱匿。先說明一下，去年10月這個裁定到哪裡去了？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這個裁定依法是應該要公開的。"],["黃委員國昌：那為什麼沒公開？剛好，就這麼剛好？你有沒有看到我整理出來的東西啊？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這是直接截圖，我沒剪貼。裁定到哪裡去了？事情大條了！還是一開始法官就心虛，連裁定都不敢公開？可以腐敗成這個樣子喔！回去3天之內把裁定公開上網，可不可以？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：太離譜了啦！就剛好是鍾文智，就剛好是不用電子腳鐐的裁定，連公開都沒有公開，更離譜的是什麼？結果事情發生了以後，司法院跟法務部繼續裝忙，從朱國榮開始就在裝忙，到現在還在裝忙，我先問清楚，當初鍾文智要不要電子監控的時候，請教一下，法務部高檢署到底有沒有明確的表示應該要繼續施以電子監控設備？有還是沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！再請司法院，為什麼你們發的新聞稿是檢察官沒意見？誰在說謊？現在法務部說高檢署說有要求繼續電子監控喔！但是我們從高等法院這邊所看到的聲明說檢察官沒意見，誰在說謊？連我們的司法機關都可以公開說謊喔？誰在說謊？說清楚！請司法院，誰在說謊？請司法院！不敢講話？誰在說謊？主席時間暫停啦！我問了一個具體的問題……"],["主席：我們先暫停一下，那個……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有回答問題，在浪費時間，想要用拖的喔！"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們確認一下……"],["黃委員國昌：確認什麼啊！這個問題我發文問多久啦？"],["主席：請兩位備詢的要回答委員問題。"],["黃委員國昌：我發文問多久啦？"],["主席：可以了嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：不知道今天來要面對這個問題嗎！誰說謊？"],["主席：好，可以回答了嗎？可以回答我們時間就繼續。"],["黃委員國昌：誰說謊？為什麼高院跟社會大眾講說檢察官沒意見，誰說謊？"],["主席：黃委員，我們時間要繼續嗎？因為立委的詢問……"],["黃委員國昌：我等他回答！現在大家可能看了，還以為畫面在靜止。"],["主席：因為如果說不知道，那你也必須要回答不知道，而不是說沒有回答。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["主席：好，麻煩你們，時間繼續。"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分據高院的回復，是說他們在詢問檢察署的時候，高檢是回復說沒有意見。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所以現在法務部不就打臉了？所以我現在要你們兩邊對清楚，現在誰說謊？請問誰說謊？"],["徐次長錫祥：跟委員報告，這個在10月9號高院公訴檢察官蒞庭的時候已經很明確……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！一個禮拜之內，請法務部跟司法院各自提出你們的證據，可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：兩邊都可以嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內提出證據，看誰在說謊，這件事情一定要追究責任到底！","結果這個傢伙很扯，給他解除電子監控，社會大眾說現在是對還不對，這個人之前已經棄保潛逃過，還遭到通緝，然後通緝期間還冒名使用他人護照非法出境2次，這種人二審判刑那麼重，結果可以不用電子監控，這到底是怎麼回事？我就開始追了，我上一次、去年的時候，我問司法院的秘書長說高院可以施壓迴避？刑事訴訟法有施壓、迴避嗎？結果司法院極盡包庇之能事，我在司法及法制委員會問這個問題的時候，還有民進黨的立委跑出來擋，說立委不可以問司法院這個問題，奇怪，在法制面上我國刑事訴訟法何時規定施壓、迴避？不喜歡的法官就施壓，叫他迴避，不是聲請迴避，聲請迴避被最高法院駁回了，然後高院的庭長跑去施壓他，哇！這個鍾文智有通天的本領，結果施壓迴避了以後，施壓的高院行政庭庭長，司法院有做任何處分嗎？還是司法院要告訴全體全國高院的法官，以後大家都可以施壓，有樣學樣，沒有關係，司法院不會管，來！請司法院表明立場。"],["王副秘書長梅英：有關於這個部分，就是司法院做過調查之後……"],["黃委員國昌：調查報告我看了，那個受訪的法官說什麼？被問的法官是不是說他覺得被施壓？調查報告你有看嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有閱讀了。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！那個被施壓的法官說什麼？說沒有啦！庭長只是關心我，他沒有施壓啦！那個法官是這樣講的嗎？還是他覺得被施壓很不舒服，那法官怎麼說的？"],["王副秘書長梅英：紀法官當時第一個時間點，因為他接到那個電話，據他所說他接到電話時候，時間很短，後來他的審判長又再去求證，可能是雙方對於這件事情的解讀不一樣……"],["黃委員國昌：哇！這樣子就輕輕帶過去了？雙方的解讀不一樣喔？法官覺得被施壓，庭長說他只是去關心，我們追求司法審判獨立多久了？臺灣喔！臺灣人追求司法審判獨立多久了？沒想到以前中國國民黨一黨專政搞的事情，在民進黨推動司法改革以後繼續上演，可以臭成這個樣子！更離譜的事情是什麼？就這張圖，仔細看！當初被施壓的法官說要電子監控，結果呢？結果人家心灰意冷不如歸去，他把法官給辭了，非常優秀的法官，他不幹了！他不幹了！可以這樣施壓他，沒有任何的結論，司法院沒有任何的作為，這個法官不幹了！結果不幹，非常厲害，換另外一個法官了，就是這個法官解除電子監控的，結果鍾文智很厲害，鍾文智找的律師都很有來歷，幫他解除電子監控的那位律師叫邱昌宏，他之前是不是最高法院的院長？是嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：洪昌宏。"],["黃委員國昌：對，洪昌宏律師。"],["王副秘書長梅英：最高法院的庭長。"],["黃委員國昌：他是庭長嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：邱忠義是不是他的庭員？"],["王副秘書長梅英：在同一庭沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在從高院到檢察官，大家非常憤怒喔！鍾文智去找一個之前的庭長來當辯護人，結果他之前的庭員就給他解除電子監控，這件事情司法院有沒有去調查？"],["王副秘書長梅英：調查有關於選任辯護人……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！調查憑什麼給他解除電子監控，這個事情不用調查嗎？還是司法院覺得沒有關係，這個是審判獨立，高院自家的法官可以去施壓下面的法官，然後這一種社會矚目、群情譁然的案件，司法院認為沒有必要調查，司法院的標準是這樣嗎？這件事要不要調查？我打開天窗說亮話，這是法官跟檢察官跟我檢舉的，司法院都沒有掌握？高等法院都不用提檢討？還是沒有關係，跟社會大眾講我們司法院會繼續開會，研議如何精進防逃，兩年前那一套宮廷戲繼續搬出來演一次就好了，司法院要不要調查？就給一個答案嘛！你不要調查就勇敢跟我說司法院就不會調查嘛！這件事情就放水流嘛！我司法院現在就是毫無作為，擺爛到底嘛！要不然你要怎麼樣！說清楚要不要調查？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有關於裁定的那個部分，這部分確實是涉及法官審判獨立的部分，如果說在司法行政部分有違失的話……"],["黃委員國昌：很厲害嘛！所以你們司法院很厲害啊，行政庭長去施壓法官，你們調查下去，真的有被施壓，沒有關係，結果法官氣到不幹了，換另外一個法官，就幫他解除電子監禁，原來綠色權貴在走法院是暢通無阻，配合得很好啊！不用給社會大眾一個交代？","還是司法院就擺爛，要不然要怎麼樣嘛！為什麼人民對司法的信任越來越低？搞了七年的司法改革，搞出這種垃圾出來！我很清楚地講，我在國會殿堂非常負責任地講，不是只有我憤怒，一堆檢察官、一堆法官大家都很憤怒，到底發生什麼事？剛答應的喔！兩邊誰說謊？一個禮拜之內各自提出證據，下一次質詢的時候我繼續追究。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","王鴻薇"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2025-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等\n17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「刑事\n訴訟法第二百零五條之二、第二百零五條之三及第二百零五條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n林楚茵等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百零五條之二條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143101_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}