{"total":{"value":129,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-03-27"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"159707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90094626db7d140be8a45ef9dc13f1f7f82b9e3eaef4bc790330c1acf7fe19f66a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:27:51 - 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11:09:29","影片長度":"00:05:18","會議時間":"2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會「住宅法修法系列公聽會（一）：社會住宅之現況及展望」公聽會","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-27","start_time":"2025-03-27T11:04:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-27T11:09:29+08:00","duration":318,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.410343750000003,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.28284375,"end":313.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.26034375,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.18409375000005,"end":318.37784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":28.524,"text":"謝謝主席今天很榮幸來出席我們住宅法修法的系列供應會也感謝所有這個學者專家還有我們召委的安排這次這個社會住宅我想對於年輕時代特別影響非常重大我想先跟大家分享一個數據很多人可能都知道我再去複述一遍到目前到今年一月底為止全國的社會主宅已完工了三萬兩千九百八十四戶興建中五萬四千六百四十八戶以絕標貸開工三萬三千兩百二十五戶規劃中五萬八千五百六十八戶所以總計台中台灣的社宅大約"},{"start":29.505,"end":37.088,"text":"如果全部都如期而且按照計劃興建完成大概是179,425大約18萬左右的這個戶數那這個戶數到底夠不夠呢我剛好在本週的業務質詢裡面也跟內政部長跟住宅這個跟國土署的就來請問一下他們現在規劃的這個社會住宅數量"},{"start":46.772,"end":72.021,"text":"大概約25萬戶左右那25萬戶左右這個數字怎麼來的當然有不同的計算標準他們是依照全國的住宅的體量那抓ID的比大概2.5%算出了25萬戶這樣的數字那我的25萬戶怎麼算出來的我的25萬戶是依據光是我們台灣現在的因為我們社會住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢者低收、中低收、特殊境遇家庭總戶數"},{"start":73.021,"end":90.689,"text":"大約現在就是25萬戶4879所以按照這樣的數字光是要維持保護基本的這個居住的需求就需要25萬戶那如果按照現行政府規劃的全部興建完大約只有十八十九萬戶的情況下面我想第一個"},{"start":91.629,"end":119.388,"text":"數量是絕對不夠的所以數量絕對不夠但第一方面我們希望政府能夠多興建一點社會住宅是第一件事情那第二部分當然透過現在的所謂租金補貼來去平衡或是去過渡這個我是覺得勉強能夠接受但是我們當然希望說住能夠長期的來保障稍早之前我剛剛上一位這個我們伊甸基金會的有提到一個事情我剛好聽到我也很認同就是我們不斷在提就是社會住宅的租屋期限從三年到六年"},{"start":119.528,"end":141.567,"text":"這件事情其實我覺得這是遠遠不足滿足這個現代的居住需求為什麼我們要這樣講呢我們常常去講一個新加坡的例子那當然我國的環境跟新加坡是完全不一樣這個我接受我也承認那新加坡有一個精神我覺得我是可以去效仿的就他們對於國民的基本居住的需求的照顧跟資本主義炒房是脫鉤的就是說"},{"start":143.368,"end":163.539,"text":"政府要怎麼樣解決資本主義往金錢追逐的這個目標我覺得非常困難坦白說我不認為任何政府能夠真的做到即使是新加坡這樣子的相對已經比較專制的政府他也做不到所以到底要怎麼樣讓多數的民眾有基本居住需求的民眾能夠符合這個居住的條件我覺得這是政府要去"},{"start":164.439,"end":179.511,"text":"不是打房當然是一個政策沒錯但是打房同時我能夠保證到所有的有居住需求的人能夠住到合理房價的房子嗎這件事情我持著保留態度所以與其去解決"},{"start":180.171,"end":197.419,"text":"高房價去解決資本主義帶來的問題還不如政府能夠負起一定的責任去保障我剛提到至少25萬戶的基本需求但是又同時一件事情如果25萬戶全部都是住所謂住宅法第十條規範的經濟或社會弱勢的話那就會陷入社會陷入一個討論就是所謂的這個標籤化的問題所以我想25萬戶當然還是不夠那另外這個部分我剛提到的多薪"},{"start":205.843,"end":220.2,"text":"社會住宅跟透過租屋補貼勉強來擬評之外我們還是希望說後續在這個住宅的使用上面能夠提因為我看內政部也有相關的一些計畫但是一直還沒有送出來就是比較屬於長期的這個使用權住宅這個方案"},{"start":220.8,"end":249.467,"text":"使用權住宅我想能夠提供10年到20年左右的時間我想對於有基本的居住需求的民眾我想才有一定程度的保障因為我想就算即便今天私有住宅一般人的房子就算你真的買了一個房子大約住20年30年可能都會有搬家的需求因為你從小到大你大概20歲成年出去工作幾年之後你都會搬離原生家裡大概社會現在的狀態長得是這樣所以如果使用權住宅的部分能夠興建而且能夠提供"},{"start":250.067,"end":272.07,"text":"10到20年以上20年左右的使用期限的話我想對於舒緩居住需求是有一定程度的幫助最後一點時間我也要再次強調除了所謂社會弱勢之外我在立法院裡面也有對住宅法提案也有強調說這個居住保障除了社會弱勢和經濟弱勢之外我覺得少子化既然大家都一致認為"},{"start":272.711,"end":298.516,"text":"是真正的國安問題的話我想提供這個年輕的父母有新生兒的家庭能夠優先入住社會住宅我覺得也是一個條件之一我想如果現在很多人年輕人不婚或是年輕人不生很多原因就是因為真的如果你生了小孩我自己有小孩清楚這個房子是一個很高的支出養小孩也是很高的支出但我們一邊每個月給他什麼幾萬塊幾千塊請他生小孩但是我想"},{"start":298.976,"end":313.071,"text":"給我們小孩支出最大比的開銷就是學費還有這個什麼居住成本所以如果能夠把居住成本這件事情讓民眾沒有後顧之憂的話我想這件事情可能也有效來解決台灣的這個少子孩問題那以上的分享謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員下一位我們請學藝工程技術"}]}},{"id":"159689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90020cad56f303529af45ef9dc13f1f7f821f25d2de176b75bc09889872e64f964c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:42:56 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人民會目前還是依照108年的報告來推估我們社宅的需求但是剛剛說過112年原住民的身份法修法之後族群認定已經變了需求也早已經不同了如果還是用舊有的資料顯然是不準確的第四個"},{"start":284.179,"end":298.135,"text":"原民會提供的專屬住宅不到600戶是根本不夠的第五個最重要的根本問題是什麼經費不足原民會自己也坦言綜合發展基金我們的現金只剩下4.3億"},{"start":300.237,"end":326.78,"text":"而行政院又不願意來撥補這個綜合發展基金缺額的部分這是無法滿足族人社宅期待的關鍵原因所以在我提出的住宅法的修正案我希望我們住在冰室的族人能夠住得起能夠住得好所以我主張導入投資的模式然後來靈活運用原住民基金投入社宅的興建"},{"start":327.961,"end":346.291,"text":"然後社宅不必分元、漢很多族人反而希望有不同的族群可以住在一起啊一起生活啊尤其現在一直在推動的全民元教我們可以在這些社宅裡面設立原住民的教保中心、托嬰中心來打造友善的公共空間所以我"},{"start":348.912,"end":371.983,"text":"認為社宅市應該根據人口的實際分布來規劃做到按需分配 按地設計讓我們的資源能夠真正發揮效益所以我認為我們的政府必須應該回應也必須看到 尤其人民會這樣子才能夠讓我們的都會區的族人能夠住得起 也住得好我覺得我們從這個方向一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝高金"}]}},{"id":"159726","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159726","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900cec4d4f35c7e7f9945ef9dc13f1f7f829b62a44c83059aaf103f035c999116f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:03:58 - 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那我們議事錄確定那我們在場有柯智恩委員萬美玲委員那我們現在就來請文化部理部長進行優惠報告報告時間八分鐘"},{"start":2188.111,"end":2203.822,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好我今天很榮幸因大院教育及文化委員會的邀請提出文化部業務報告並且備詢文化永續世界台灣是文化部一直以來的師政的願景"},{"start":2204.73,"end":2232.608,"text":"我僅代表文化部從三個面向來跟大家做重點的報告這三個面向是文化政策文化產業跟文化建設首先在文化政策方面我們會持續推動向下扎根今年除了持續向16到22歲的青年朋友發放1200點的文化幣之外我們也試辦13到15歲每人600點的文化幣"},{"start":2234.049,"end":2247.783,"text":"總共受益人數到目前為止206萬人是我們預計的目前領用的人數132.2萬人領取率已經高達六成四使用金額已經到了6.61億"},{"start":2249.725,"end":2276.783,"text":"除了發放之外我們也搭配了我們文化部的所有政策中正在進行的活動比如說國際書展或是國片等等鼓勵青年朋友積極領用文化幣小公視去年8月正式開台我們也鼓勵製作台灣兒少節目目前已經推出了25檔新制的兒少節目另外我也想積極培植兒童劇團及兒童戲劇創作者"},{"start":2279.925,"end":2304.782,"text":"在培養兒少繪本人才方面我們首次舉辦了一個繪本新秀大賽大家非常踴躍大概超過了900件的申請案敬請會公布獲獎名單今年九月我們會辦一個第一屆台灣國際兒童書展屆時我們也想邀請各位委員共襄盛舉這場兒童文化內容的盛宴"},{"start":2305.762,"end":2331.954,"text":"另外我們第一屆百大文化集體的甄選也受到大家非常踴躍的參與申請件數一共有1026件我們目前預定4月底公布結果未來我們要整合相關的資源配合其他的部會把文化集體打造成一個具有教育意義國際觀光和經濟價值的文化產育"},{"start":2333.744,"end":2358.394,"text":"兩天前台南國家美術館籌備處已經正式掛牌這是台灣第一座專責台灣近現代美術發展的美術館我在此我要特別感謝所有參與其中的先進同仁特別是前輩藝術家的後代謝謝他們的捐贈這對重建台灣藝術史來講是一個意義非凡的里程碑"},{"start":2360.083,"end":2387.291,"text":"除了建立台灣文化的主體性我們也積極要把台灣文化推向國際我們持續透過文化外交和文化黑潮政策鼓勵台灣藝文團隊參加國際展演國際演出 國際合資合作我們今年也跨部會跟外交部合作推出歐洲文化年的系列活動以響應大阪勢博"},{"start":2388.773,"end":2400.799,"text":"計劃在8月在大阪辦理台灣藝文系列展演向國際宣揚台灣文化的軟實力除此以外我們持續落實推動國家語言發展"},{"start":2401.823,"end":2425.704,"text":"有形跟無形的文化資產保存以及轉型正義人權教育等等建構台灣多元的價值民主自由的文化產業發展環境賴總統在3月13號國安高層會議的記者會又提到我們要提升本土文化產業的競爭力因此在文化產業面向"},{"start":2426.545,"end":2452.27,"text":"我們不僅會持續努力還要爭取更多的資源來投入目前國發基金已經匡列了第二個100億投資的額度我們藉由這個100億引導民間資金易入台灣文化內容產業其中已經通過跟中華電信合作組成一個規模30億的文創基金"},{"start":2453.871,"end":2465.399,"text":"也跟其他的電信公司正在簽備忘錄我們也持續透過投資跟補助並行的方式提升台灣影視能量"},{"start":2466.738,"end":2484.116,"text":"今年文策院更开始推动台湾故事开发国际合作计划挑选具有商业性和国际市场潜力的台湾原创故事搭配国际人才携手将台湾故事推向国际舞台"},{"start":2485.217,"end":2503.228,"text":"流行音樂產業方面我們將持續鼓勵進軍國際舞台音樂節以及跨界合作今年我們規劃流行音樂拓展東南亞市場計畫協助產業拓展海外市場促成音樂合資版權交易"},{"start":2503.948,"end":2520.224,"text":"演出經濟等國際合作機會推動台灣音樂出口在出版產業方面我們也會持續推出創作的鼓勵翻譯出版獎勵及版權推廣等計畫目前已經有多部作品"},{"start":2521.105,"end":2544.974,"text":"獲得國際獎項肯定例如楊雙子的台灣漫遊錄英譯本獲得美國國家圖書獎翻譯文學大獎這是台灣文學作品首次獲得此珠榮在文化創意跟文化科技方面我們持續打造台灣文化創意博覽會台北時裝周等文創交易平台"},{"start":2545.914,"end":2566.958,"text":"拓展國際影響力同時鼓勵科技藝術創作在國際文化展演的新技術上台灣不會缺席在動畫與漫畫方面今年起我們會設置動畫節目製作補助在長篇輔導金中增加一項動畫組我們積極啟動籌備2027年國際漫畫節"},{"start":2575.461,"end":2588.971,"text":"今年我們會和日本漫畫培訓單位合作辦理漫畫創作與編輯培訓課程也規劃透過補助跟媒合機制協助漫畫IP轉譯成動畫、遊戲、影視提升台灣原創內容、產業價值和國際競爭力"},{"start":2597.236,"end":2621.363,"text":"最後在文化建設方面各項文化館設的興建、整修跟升級計畫都在進行中今年會有幾項完工或開始啟用國家兒童未來館在今年春夏設立願景館用科技、自然藝術跟社會等方式讓我們的兒童參與兒童未來館"},{"start":2623.483,"end":2650.391,"text":"從無到有的過程台灣文學館將利用歷史建築糧食局的倉庫作為第二個據點我們命名為台灣文學糧倉預計今年上半年啟用我們也預計完成國家鐵道博物館北側範圍空總台灣當代文化實驗場古蹟修復再利用等工程以上報告請大院委員不應自教謝謝大家"},{"start":2658.89,"end":2659.451,"text":"謝謝李部長的口頭報告那我們現在進行詢問"},{"start":2675.186,"end":2694.252,"text":"委員如有臨時提案也請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員葛如君召委質詢結束後即其進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位柯志恩委員質詢好謝謝召委我們現在請黎院部長請黎院部長"},{"start":2708.134,"end":2720.762,"text":"各位你好部長好我想你現在也是聊下去站台助講而且還自備道具你那個挖工是從哪裡來的我那個挖工是我非常有歷史價值是我結婚成家立業的起家族的起家王"},{"start":2723.924,"end":2741.393,"text":"就从你们家自己带过来的对不对不过真的还是一个知名的作家讲的是要把讨饭的挖工变成文化的聚宝盆那我想这个向来我们对于这个文化工作者的生计大家都非常的重视嘛对不对特别是对基层的人工但是呢我还是要请问部长"},{"start":2742.153,"end":2765.252,"text":"大部分的文化工作者是很难真的是连聚宝盆的边都摸不到的要拿到补助的机会都没有的你在站台时候讲的一些话我某种程度我还是蛮赞同的你说呢这个创作之余还要监送这个外送当家教然后呢各种贴补的工作来维持生计没错吧就表示说这个大家过得非常的辛苦嘛对不对"},{"start":2766.132,"end":2782.778,"text":"那這應該是文化部的一個工作跟角色啦那我想請問部長你知道這個從民進黨執政大概2016到現在大概9年的時間我們這10年來台灣藝文工作者的年薪大概是多少你有概念嗎我沒有概念因為它不同的產業不同的收入"},{"start":2784.899,"end":2807.295,"text":"但是把它列名为艺文工作者我跟部长讲一下大概维持在45万到53万之间它大概比服务业这十年服务业增长的幅度其实你看服务业增长的幅度大概是24%但是我们创作者表演艺术者才增加4%这是让部长先了解一些基本的概念而且你会知道2013年两者才差9%"},{"start":2809.677,"end":2837.725,"text":"但到2019年的时候呢其实已经扩大到18%而且这个疫情扩大之后呢更已经达到26%这就是基层文化者我们要讨论要真正让他们能够摸到聚宝盆我们要从这个角度来先来看起而且很多事实证明包括吴阿普你自己也做过很多的资料啊你每一年花了2696万来做这个所谓的统计来做分析你也很多数字告诉我们低薪 风险高 压力大"},{"start":2839.005,"end":2855.443,"text":"这都完全是所以我们就一一来解释一下到底是如何来我们再看下面一个资料你看根据劳动部的调查我们大概有21万这个文化工作者但是呢受雇的员工就是有公司的受雇大概是13万大概是占的比例是63.76"},{"start":2857.105,"end":2876.1,"text":"那没有一定雇主的大概就是3.84但是就像freelancer就是自营工作者是32.41部长你看这个比例图跟一般我们劳动的分配是有点不太一样一般劳动分配的话自营者跟这个所谓的有雇主的大概是2比8但是我们文化工作者你看得出来"},{"start":2877.921,"end":2900.409,"text":"自营工作者跟还有包括没有一定的工作者他的比例是高于一般台湾的整个劳工的结构这就可以反映出我们工作者的一个辛苦但是呢我今天就要特别提到没有雇主没有劳保没有劳退这个东西是我们想面对你们也做出了非常多的研究我们来看看怎么样来做一个解方先告诉你还有出版业这是部长非常在乎的"},{"start":2901.209,"end":2928.209,"text":"出版业也来反映呢还有一堆的一批的外包的这个大军团包括企划文案等等之类的你知道吗他们跟本席反映光是单笔收入超过两万块的拨款的时候就必须依法先预扣10%的所得税还有一笔二代健保没有加入工会的外包人员要扣这一笔所以说呢预扣所得税是政府的规定你把一天到晚没有超过两万人他的这个预扣所得跟蔡依林周杰伦"},{"start":2928.829,"end":2952.484,"text":"一模一樣你覺得這公平嗎身為文化部長你對這些基層人員公平嗎他們都沒有跟你反應過嗎你是不是可以去以部長之姿為了這些文化的基層工作者然後跟財政部來了解一下是否對於這些文化的工作者怎麼樣鼓勵文化工作者當他們在這個第二代的健保的這個部分可不可以不要預扣這是部長你可以做到的嘛對不對對"},{"start":2955.376,"end":2972.049,"text":"好那就請部長務必未來可以為這些工作者來因為兩萬多塊錢是不應該跟周杰倫等量奇觀來做同樣的事情這是不公平的這才是為文化工作基層來去做我們再來看一下還有沒有當然還有啊像是呢文化部做這麼多統計但是我們要問嘛我剛說了2690"},{"start":2976.953,"end":2999.205,"text":"2696万来做这个分析但是你们到底拿出了什么样的解方到底做了哪一些的事情所以说这些你们拿出来的对策到底在哪里我们就来看啊还有呢去年有一位成为钢琴大奖的这个杨信钢琴家他对罗当然他的原因有非常多不同的因素我现在只看到他所说的揭露艺术工作者的困境我看到这一个部分"},{"start":2999.625,"end":3021.102,"text":"你知道很多的艺术家他们往往一些契约被取消他们完全没有任何的一个概念他们也完全不晓得民法也不熟悉深文化部长你可不在你的官网因为不懂法律可不可以提供契约范本就像过去我们的观光产业我们的消费者本身也不知道这个出国旅游会有这么多我们马上有消费者的契约"},{"start":3021.542,"end":3033.156,"text":"如果對這基層員工來說的話是否可以提供一個辦法提供一個法律參考這才是文化部部長該做的事情這才是你告訴我們這些文化基層工作者應該有的一些部分部長你同意嗎"},{"start":3034.643,"end":3039.027,"text":"非常同意而且我們就朝這個發現已經公佈在我們的官方網站上面您剛才講的我非常非常同意當然因為你自己也是來自基層你知道他們之間的一個辛苦好不好這麼多的人那接下來我們就來看一下公視最近舉辦的事實查核的藝術跟實踐國際研討會很好來告訴我們"},{"start":3054.699,"end":3074.159,"text":"怎么样来对于这个假讯息严重散布该如何做一些防堵可是我们来看看公事的就是公广机场的华视的新闻的专业到底有没有它的公信力存在不要说这个跑马灯但这已经是过去式的跑马灯过去的共军投档习台大屯火山爆发这些都是跑马灯所发生的一些的状况"},{"start":3074.659,"end":3081.781,"text":"然後現在呢好最近就發生了這個狀況陳潔篇的發言被民眾抗議還明明講的是中華隊你們硬要是要把它改成台灣隊然後呢昨天又發生一些我們75個中研院的這個學者專家明明跟你講的就是在戒嚴時代思想已經審查已經降臨台灣這個呢我們你們中央社就一定要把這個戒嚴兩個字給拿掉戒嚴這麼刺耳嗎部長"},{"start":3104.471,"end":3121.221,"text":"戒嚴是一個在台灣曾經有過的一個人家講人家學者專家講的就是他的如實你如實把它披露出來硬是要把戒嚴兩個字拿掉人家的中華隊你要把它框上是台灣隊你覺得新聞的公信你覺得新聞的職專業是需要做這樣的事情嗎就是這樣子啊"},{"start":3125.563,"end":3140.616,"text":"人家聯合其他報紙就是有如實的報導我們這位陳培哲教授裡面所提到的你硬是要把這兩個字弄掉你覺得你身為一個專業新聞工作有需要做這件事嗎我想這非常不應該可能是一個疏忽啦疏忽啊不然是故意的"},{"start":3140.836,"end":3165.379,"text":"那我们就希望以后的公广集团旗下的任何的部分可以更不要再疏忽好不好我们就已经提点出来还有台湾plus对不起啊部长我还是要说在我们院会的时候呢我们所有的委员只是只是做的一些小更多院会这个部分里面当然会有但是呢我们看看台湾plus台湾plus的一些的员工其实就会到我这个地方来他认为呢发生什么样的状况"},{"start":3165.799,"end":3184.264,"text":"他说他通常很多时候是高于市价的外包的方法然后呢对于一些纳税人的钱其实没有好好的制作成本非常的惊人OK还有呢到底跟Discovery的合作的专案两年间耗费六千万有没有他的合理性这都可以受到讨论但是呢"},{"start":3184.904,"end":3208.161,"text":"就是一个你113年你明明还有一亿花不完而且呢我们调了一个资料你还要跟文化部做一个预算展言你的钱都还没有花完你却还要用更多的预算你不觉得这个预算的管控上面部长你应该稍微也来了解一下吗要展言这个一亿表示钱没有花完没有在这个规定时间做啊"},{"start":3208.601,"end":3216.989,"text":"是不是所以這是內部員工覺得在這整個過程當中高層的確是有必要要再做一些檢討部長你同意嗎我非常同意應該檢討但有一些"},{"start":3219.608,"end":3239.6,"text":"那個節目製作是跟國際合作他必須展現我同意啊所以我才說你同意合作但是你的時間也沒有辦法做到這個就在預算的管控上面就會出了問題還有包括你們台灣plus的基層員工所提到的外包然後是不是你的這個所謂外包的成本比本來製作還要更高這個也請部長好好來諮詢一下"},{"start":3241.721,"end":3261.429,"text":"好谢谢还有包括我还知道央广这当然是已经过去式的这个目前来说非常多已经不是现在我们央广的董事长的部分这是前台的馆长的这个部分嘛好我们这体验我们就来看一下这个虽然是四年前发生的事情但是呢它也条列的你有看过他们所拿出的报告吗"},{"start":3263.413,"end":3278.714,"text":"你没看过报告那个廉政署都已经开始查了你没看过调查报告里面有提出五项严重的缺失我想这五项严重的缺失目前为止有没有做任何的做任何的一个追究而且你们还说要上到司法单位来做调查到底后续有没有调查"},{"start":3279.415,"end":3300.468,"text":"有關於央廣這長期以來的歷史工業這是你們前台長所說的什麼叫歷史工業然後歷史工業完就完全不追究然後這台長就可以到別的地方更高深有這種事啊而且最重要的是你為什麼把它放為機密文件最後不能不能見人嗎為什麼放機密文件這東西不能公開透明嗎告訴我央廣過去的歷史工業到底是哪些的工業哪一些的工業為什麼要放成機密文件"},{"start":3301.989,"end":3322.071,"text":"部長這不需要吧而且呢這個崔少哲本身認為他是長期受到一個霸凌雖然你們已經成立委員會然後認為不成立但是他也是一個事實所以我還是真的是希望部長這些都是員工的犧牲我今天所提到都是文化者基本的一個犧牲可不可以請你真的是好好去徹查一下以前是叫做國防部"},{"start":3322.952,"end":3330.555,"text":"我不相信要變成文化部遮羞部的部這不應該在你任內所發生的事情這個不應該變成一個機密最後我還是要說華視的部分裡面這個總台長目前為止到華視去了然後呢華視被認為是國家關鍵的基礎設施這是NCC講的因為是我們國家的是我們的部分裡面"},{"start":3340.678,"end":3358.46,"text":"现在你们把六楼把一些两层楼的节目部全部赶到六楼的一个角落一个节目部节目部的基层员工也觉得很吧一个这么大的一个节目部为什么要赶到六楼过去然后把这些全部出租当然我可以了解华氏的辛苦所以希望能够"},{"start":3358.78,"end":3377.354,"text":"能出空间来然后能够外租给不同的单位所以你看啊这我还是要忍不住这又是一个历史的工业我相信你们会这样讲今年的台市跟民市都赚钱中市小亏的三千万华市还是亏钱这当然是历史工业我知道我们的董事长也非常的努力的但是呢我说实在的你们把"},{"start":3377.794,"end":3387.52,"text":"这个楼层把一个这么重要的节目部放在一个员工不舒服而且比较狭窄的空间全部是外包全部都是拿去租赁然后你收入3.5亿但是我说实在的如果不是放上这3.5亿华氏不是要亏6亿吗"},{"start":3393.924,"end":3420.987,"text":"這些都是在財務成本的管控上面部長都是你自己曾經經歷過的你今天具有這樣的一個位置我真的很希望部長真的為基層的文化工作者我剛剛所提到的部長也認為是有道理的那就請部長採取行動這才是一個文化部不是跟我講那麼多文化部身為一個基層文化工作者我們給他一個更好的文化環境這才是我們應該是最基礎而且應該最需要做到的部長同意嗎"},{"start":3421.932,"end":3445.666,"text":"剛才柯委員講的每一件事情我都身歷其境謝謝你的指教我想我會努力希望我們在下一次的質詢當中可以看到一些結果特別是我剛剛所提到的二代健保部分兩萬五千塊你卻要跟他跟那個兩億五千塊的周杰倫放在一個同一個瓶頸這怎麼說都說不過去了對不對是好我有提到周杰倫但是你不想聽到名字因為上次黃劉佩好選你也被周杰倫搞得非常的困難好吧謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3450.011,"end":3454.977,"text":"好 謝謝柯之恩委員部長請回好 我們接下來請萬美玲委員好 謝謝召委一樣有請我們林遠部長還有我們賴董事長好 辛迪部長跟楊廣賴董事長"},{"start":3473.343,"end":3491.114,"text":"王委員您好部長早我想央廣最近這件事情鬧得沸沸揚揚但是剛才我聽到您說這個查核報告您沒有看我們來回顧一下這個央廣在110年4月的時候當時被媒體爆出製作不實的單據那像這個陸委會等等的公部門詐領了相關的公費"},{"start":3493.175,"end":3510.5,"text":"那那個時候其實文化部到了這個隔兩個月才去函要求這個公正查核那央廣也花了大概半年多的時間到111年的1月把查核報告送到文化部那不曉得為什麼要列為這個機密當然現在把它解密之後我們才發現說"},{"start":3512.38,"end":3533.316,"text":"其中6697筆領據竟然有高達2885筆的領據是異常的這個比例已經高達了43%而且這是目前可以查到的部分那如果還有一些我們不知道沒有公布的我們還不知道有多少但是本席比較驚訝的是部長您竟然說你沒有看過這個查核報告為什麼"},{"start":3536.203,"end":3561.065,"text":"我想我最近還沒有機會看到因為他最近這個事情我其實一開始根本搞不清楚因為四年前後來經過我了解以後我想這個當然不是在您的任內喔但是呢我們要這個大刀闊斧的去改變過去的一些陋習喔那或者是有一些其實不合理不合法的地方我覺得您身為現任的部長是應該要去了解的喔你看喔"},{"start":3561.485,"end":3574.396,"text":"既然您說您沒有看過我想整理一下其實沒有看過連最近媒體在報也沒有去注意嘛因為它不管是這個節目沒有辦法核對好像每一集的這個集數是不相符的那甚至於來賓是不對的還有這個偽造簽名的那麼日期跟播出時間不一的等等這些其實都非常的誇張啦我相信您身為這個從這個電視人來從媒體來喔您一定會發現這樣的狀況其實是匪夷所思的喔"},{"start":3587.987,"end":3616.814,"text":"好我們再來看一個根據這個查核報告我們看到來我們看一下那個到查核報告這邊這個查核報告我們看到第一階段跟第三階段不知道你有沒有發現這是央廣指定特定的範圍央廣指定的特定的範圍去讓你查核結果呢我們發現你看第一階段無法勾擊的比例還是高達將近48%如果要把這個裡面回復加進去超過一半你指定的範圍我們竟然還是沒有辦法勾擊第三階段"},{"start":3617.594,"end":3629.298,"text":"一樣是你這個特定的範圍結果呢高達九成多無法勾擊那你更不要講說沒有特定的範圍也是六成多無法勾擊喔所以我覺得這個很誇張啦就換句話說我們有一半以上的領據喔是沒有辦法查核的喔那有這麼高比例的異常喔其實我必須要講喔這真的是一團亂戰啦已經不是說什麼平行形勢啦還是什麼疏失啦我覺得啦"},{"start":3643.803,"end":3661.135,"text":"你要說這裡面有人謀不章或者有其他的狀況我覺得都不為過所以我覺得這個部長是應該要去了解一下的那當然這個在文化部在111年的4月份的時候當時送了地檢署跟這個廉政署來調查"},{"start":3662.256,"end":3686.961,"text":"所以這個事件被這個被披露這個是延宕一年之後才送這個我覺得必須要了解為什麼延宕這麼多可是呢這個查核報告還有一點他說查核人員根本無法確認樣本量的存在性跟正確性那也難怪嘛那難怪地檢署聯證署查了三年還查不出所以然來好我們看到之前我們還把它列為這個機密那如果按照"},{"start":3687.501,"end":3714.761,"text":"之前的這個文化部跟部長提的說要等到這個司法機關查出來才要解密那你這樣永遠就沒有解密的時候啦我覺得這很誇張欸部長所以我想這個查核報在110年1月我們就送到了文化部來了那當時這文化部也有要求說你趕快改善不過央保到113年才說要重新建置會計賬戶系統而且據本期了解到現在還沒有辦法建置改善完畢那針對這一些"},{"start":3717.383,"end":3744.494,"text":"董事長您可以接受央廣這樣的效率跟這件事事後這樣的處理嗎非常不能接受因為我的工作五十年以來我接觸過非常多這種機構裡面會長期累積的一些問題我聽了蠻痛心的那我也希望未來的所有的查核機制本身內容的一些建置一個比較完整的那個會計系統內控我希望能夠很快建立"},{"start":3745.194,"end":3749.978,"text":"你希望趕快建立嗎所以一個月之內我們有辦法把它建立起來嗎我請那個沒有沒有 部長還是要了解一個月內可以嗎其實他們2021年之後就來做這個事情一個月應該沒問題的其實在當時發生後的一個月就應該要檢討了三四年後我覺得太離譜了啦好不好所以部長 拜託我希望這件事情你要有魄力"},{"start":3770.034,"end":3785.165,"text":"雖然不是在你的任內但是我們要看看央廣到底發生什麼事情了我想其實我們在央廣有一些節目製作各方面還是很好的但是不能因為有一些做得很好這件事情我們把它當作疏忽我覺得不可以這樣子那另外剛剛也有提出來說我們這個當時吹哨者"},{"start":3788.007,"end":3800.139,"text":"他是一位在央广任职25年的台语导播他也有提出来说因为他出来做吹哨者所以他遭到职场的霸凌这件事情部长有没有去了解"},{"start":3801.018,"end":3820.716,"text":"我稍微了解 我覺得他所謂的職長霸凌 他講的這件事情其實蠻複雜經過調查後他不成立 不成立之後他再申請調查所以又重啟調查 所以他不是用一個高層次案升官這樣的字眼去形容整件事 他沒那麼單純"},{"start":3822.005,"end":3825.326,"text":"好 部長 既然這件事情沒有那麼單純但是呢 這個吹哨者其實也有在站出來為這件事情再發出不平之聲我希望部長 我們是不是應該把這個案子到底過去怎麼發生了你看看 百分之四十幾"},{"start":3838.331,"end":3857.227,"text":"就我們能夠查到就百分之四十幾將近一半這個單據啊其實涉及炸零不時的核銷然後呢又有吹哨者被職場霸凌那甚至於當年啊可能有做錯事的人不斷在升官我希望部長能不能用你現在是文化部的部長的這樣的高度這整個案子全部重啟調查可以嗎"},{"start":3858.087,"end":3881.228,"text":"沒問題我想我會全部了解那我們一個月內可以把這個報告出來嗎可以好謝謝那接下來部長我想繼續跟您請教我想最近這幾年來AI的技術可以說是發展非常的迅速而且應用在這個藝術創作的案例可以說是越來越多不管是AI的音樂畫作劇本等等那文化部其實也跟台灣人工智慧實驗室來合作"},{"start":3882.99,"end":3895.883,"text":"也呃 籌建了一個流行音樂中心AI實驗基地在花蓮嘛喔那我想請教一下部長喔我們現在除了這個花蓮的流行音樂中心AI實驗基地之外現在還有沒有其他地方也要來做的計畫"},{"start":3897.54,"end":3916.033,"text":"有 其實我們最近不斷地在內部討論AI對我們未來的創作可以有什麼影響然後有什麼幫助 但是也會有一些可能租作權的問題所以我們現在除了花蓮的這個實驗基地沒有其他的了是嗎沒有 有一直在做好 在我想"},{"start":3916.733,"end":3924.845,"text":"部長講得很好這也是我們必須要拿來討論的就是說我們其實一定的程度也是代表文化部有去支持這個AI協助創作支持的一個方向所以我們才會籌建這個實驗基地不過就像您剛剛所說的"},{"start":3932.095,"end":3952.882,"text":"觸發了相關的作品或者風格的一些侵權或者是剽竊或者是影響的疑慮跟爭議這幾點我們都有在討論所以你怎麼看這個AI對於藝術家來說它到底是一個創作者角色會變成一種威脅還是創作力催生的一種協同所以您也是一個作家您怎麼看這個部分"},{"start":3954.124,"end":3973.041,"text":"我覺得他是兩面的他有時候太快的輸進去可以有創作出來跟我們創作差不多這是一個危機這是一個危機譬如說我們最近有個繪本比賽評完之後我就會找兩個負責AI的評審重新看一遍得獎作品看他們是不是AI深層"},{"start":3973.881,"end":3997.793,"text":"這是一個負面的可是我們也不能排斥AI能夠做的很多工作有可能是比過去更方便很好部長我覺得您這個方向都非常的正確那也考慮得非常的周全正因為你說這是一體兩面所以我們才要認真仔細好我舉一個國外的例子根據英國創作者權力聯盟工會來調查他們有四分之一的插畫家跟超過三分之一的翻譯者"},{"start":3998.473,"end":4017.194,"text":"因為AI失業了而超過86%的這個工會會員他也很擔心他自身不管是風格啦或者是他的聲音等等在AI訓練的過程當中遭到這個模仿或剽竊會使他的創作價值受損好我們看到在國內也像您剛所說的我們也一直都有一些爭議包括"},{"start":4018.215,"end":4044.002,"text":"AI這個生成作品的這個利用這個作品去參加比賽得到獎項那引發這個大家覺得不公平啦那也有這個插畫家的會師啊這個被AI侵權啦等等啦所以這就是您剛剛所說的好那我們就來討論了所以你看我們如果在推動這個AI創作的同時那我知道有這些問題但是我們沒有明確的這個規範跟指引其實這就會是一種衝擊啦所以好"},{"start":4045.962,"end":4061.424,"text":"都點頭嗎 沒有錯所以你看我們現在政院版的AI基本法還卡在行政院所以隨著我們現在不管是法律 法規落後於AI跳躍式的發展我們快跟不上了所以創作人的權益其實就會去一種不平衡"},{"start":4062.285,"end":4088.553,"text":"那文化部在去年12月中旬有說過我們現在在蒐集國際案例跟國內藝文產業的意見要來研擬文化藝術應用生成式的AI規範指引並且要預計在今年上半年來發布請問一下部長這個進度現在到哪裡了知道原來的進度在2025年的上半年會發布因為這個部分從去年開始所以是幾月幾月 我問一下"},{"start":4091.456,"end":4102.854,"text":"6月對6月好所以我們確定6月份這一份文化藝術應用生成式AI規範指引就會出來嘛對不對好那我想大方向問一下我們這個指引要怎麼規範"},{"start":4106.005,"end":4124.194,"text":"我們會在各種比賽裡面非常嚴格的要求他不能夠是AI的生成但是反過來也不斷的告訴藝文工作者AI跟他之間的這種限制跟利用那規範裡面會訂得很清楚"},{"start":4124.594,"end":4141.541,"text":"那部長我想我這邊能不能這樣要求啊因為六月我們正式的這個指引要出來嘛那我們是希望能不能夠在比如說四月五月的時候啊我們有一個大方向能不能先把這個大方向讓我們所有委員會的委員先知道一下整個方向大概是往哪個地方走可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":4144.562,"end":4172.762,"text":"就是我們六月嘛所以我們可不可以五月初好不好五月初的時候把這個大方先給大家那也許我們大家還可以有集思廣益有一些更寶貴的意見可以給各位其實我們在我們所有過去的辦法裡都加了這一條以前沒有加現在所有補助辦法跟比賽我們都加就像我剛才講說我們還會加一個AI的評審看看作品有沒有AI的生成等等雖然我們的範例還沒有那個辦法還沒出來可是我們已經在我們的所有條例裡面修改"},{"start":4173.382,"end":4191.337,"text":"好那部長反正我們就是剛才我們說的央廣的部分一個月內要給我一個這個報告然後這個部分的話五月初大方向給我們六月我們要公佈好不好好沒問題謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員部長請回我們接下來請林沛翔委員有請李部長好有請部長"},{"start":4208.157,"end":4232.12,"text":"林委員好 部長本席是基隆選區選出來的立法委員那基隆作為一個豐富歷史與文化底蘊的城市那基本上來講我們都知道基隆是個海港不過基隆曾經也經過了西班牙統治時代、荷蘭統治時代、日據統治時代甚至還有清法戰爭所以基隆嚴格講起來是有多國文化的文化交匯的地方"},{"start":4232.76,"end":4247.168,"text":"但是我這邊就要提說因為基隆過去幾年來對於文化上面來講常常會被人家有一種似乎是文化感不足文化沙漠的這種感觸所以說本席今天想要來談談關於基隆文化資源的整合"},{"start":4247.948,"end":4274.462,"text":"最近基隆市有積極推向多項文化活動包括說下禮拜即將開始的2025基隆童話藝術節以及說像是說基隆文化學推出所謂的世界閱讀日結合基隆港的歷史跟康瑪丁市集的特色讓民眾深入了解基隆的文化不過呢我們基隆的文化特色如何在基隆如何在全國或者國際之間受到更多關注其實還是蠻挑戰性的蠻大挑戰的"},{"start":4277.624,"end":4302.228,"text":"我們文化部的台灣文化路徑推動計畫已經涵蓋多元族群及地方文化的保存與發展但是基隆的海港文化跟廟宇文化似乎沒有被充分納入在裡面所以想請問部長文化部是否考慮將基隆的港口歷史跟海洋文化納入我們台灣文化路徑推動計畫成為獨特的一條文化路徑呢"},{"start":4304.391,"end":4330.692,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題我覺得基隆在2017年之後我們整個歷史重建計畫修復一些重要的觀色還有就是剛剛講到大基隆歷史場景再造我們補助了大概8億多的錢挖掘這個考古之後的下一個點在港口文化的確是全台灣北北基於很重要的一個點我想它是一個歷史恢復我想會列入我們的計畫中"},{"start":4333.114,"end":4351.167,"text":"為什麼會特地提到這一塊就是說其實部長我沒有想過我們現在不只是考古學家也好還是歷史學家也好甚至像一般的年輕一輩針對這個大航海時代其實都有很多的憧憬跟很多的好感那在大航海時代裡面如果把基隆"},{"start":4351.647,"end":4379.834,"text":"因為基隆為什麼會有清法戰爭為什麼會有西班牙人來這邊佔領為什麼有荷蘭來這邊佔領因為基隆是個天然兩港之外另外一點就是基隆本身有豐富的煤礦那如果在以前的歷史史觀來看的時候基隆不但是個好的軍港好的商港之外還可以直接就可以有足夠的燃料來支撐一座艦隊所以如果以這個大航海時代的歷史史觀來講的話基隆其實發展性非常的高"},{"start":4380.234,"end":4395.992,"text":"那跟其他不管是說你是講是說大韓時代西班牙帝國還是那個荷蘭帝國他們在海上的這些貿易跟這些佔領的過程當中其實基隆在這邊其實很多可以點綴的地方所以因此我會特地把港口文化拿出來講"},{"start":4396.793,"end":4412.278,"text":"另外一方面廟宇文化因為基隆長期是海港那海港有時候很多不同的像海致敬的文化或像不管是媽祖也好還是說其他不同的文化這一點為什麼特地把這兩個勾勒出來就是希望說部長"},{"start":4412.918,"end":4430.295,"text":"以台灣文化算是總督來講如果你以台灣文化總督來看的時候其實這一點是很好發揮的地方所以特地請部長再把這兩個尤其是有關港口文化現在基隆還是全世界有名的港口不管是郵輪港也好還是山港也好"},{"start":4430.655,"end":4444.227,"text":"那這點港口文化如果未來他們我們的國際旅客也好還是國際客要繼續來基隆那港口文化港口的故事描述會是我認為不管是文化部也好還是其他觀光業也好很重要的一點"},{"start":4446.585,"end":4470.414,"text":"謝謝委員講這一段其實我們去年台灣歷史博物館就有展出一個清法戰爭而且是跟法國一起來展的然後所有港口的宮廟都記載著清清楚楚當年清法戰爭發生之後民間的口述歷史所以那個展覽告訴我們說明年就是西班牙來台灣400年就像"},{"start":4472.415,"end":4496.48,"text":"去年是台南的四百年一樣那個地方是有很多歷史是被大家忽略的像看清華戰爭在正史上都沒有記載太多都從民間去找到一些口述歷史反而要從法國人那邊找到很多證據所以這點委員你講的是我們未來一定會非常重視的港口文化跟曾經發生過的事情"},{"start":4496.84,"end":4521.466,"text":"好 謝謝部長特地提到這清法戰爭因為清法戰爭您剛剛講說140週年活動嘛其實這個我會 本席覺得基本上來講是好事而且做得不錯但是本席覺得有點可惜的地方就是不只是清法戰爭而是關於說基隆附近有很多砲台也有很多戰爭的遺址那以前保存 現在還是很努力在保存但是很可惜就是說"},{"start":4522.947,"end":4537.061,"text":"就是我們這一輩的或是我們下一代對於戰爭的不管戰爭的了解還是戰爭的想法也好並沒有說那麼明確的能夠可以看到也就是說如果我們能用AR或VR"},{"start":4537.461,"end":4557.078,"text":"去做在這些地方去把它做個復原就是說就與其說真的是用用firework用這種煙火之類倒不如說AR或VR再做長時間的復原一方面可以把整個一方面是可以把港口文化把它講得更好基隆的地方文化講得更好另外一方面可以把過去的軍事文化"},{"start":4557.919,"end":4576.701,"text":"跟整個海洋文化就是海洋大爭霸我們剛剛講大航海時代那一塊為什麼港口是很重要的這一塊像是我個人就知道說基隆的砲台其實有分三種遠砲 中砲跟近砲可是這些砲台在不同的地方的時候要把這些故事說得活靈活現除非遇到這些齊老而且是對歷史觀"},{"start":4577.802,"end":4595.232,"text":"很有感觸的其老不然還真不容易去把它當成講說當初親當初為什麼法國軍隊那麼強大的那麼強大的世界海軍進來機種之後居然打不下來這件事情所以我會個人認為說如果我們現有21世紀的科技的那剛剛我看到萬美林"},{"start":4596.572,"end":4617.405,"text":"萬維園也在質詢現在用AI的科技是可以在不管是Meet Journey也好還是說創作詞作曲也好都是有一定程度的威脅但是也是因為有一定程度的幫助那這一點來講的話我們AR或VR是不是可以用在建請文化部在基隆的某些場址上面未來利用AR跟VR技術把這過去的戰爭戰爭絕對不是好事"},{"start":4625.169,"end":4649.111,"text":"但是過去戰爭發生的狀況戰爭過去發生的一些現況把它重複把它重現在我們讓我們現人知道說為我們基隆為什麼重要這一點我認為如果做得好不是只有會讓基隆的下一代或是台灣的下一代可以理解到說當初基隆在這邊為什麼這麼多歷史故事同時也可以吸引一些外國客因為畫面是最容易去"},{"start":4649.791,"end":4661.97,"text":"畫面跟影音是最容易去吸引人的東西但用這種方式來去把過去的戰爭歷史跟戰爭文化甚至海洋文化讓更多人知道甚至讓國際知道部長您覺得這是否可行"},{"start":4662.751,"end":4689.926,"text":"我覺得這建議非常好因為基隆除了大航海時代的歷史之外戰後的歷史在基隆也非常特別許多人來台灣之後也是第一個登陸的港口就是基隆剛剛提到ARV我們會朝著這個構想來做而且它不只是ARV它還可以影視題材也不錯譬如電影或者漫畫我們漫畫其實最近這幾年都朝著歷史發展"},{"start":4690.726,"end":4706.842,"text":"委員剛剛這個建議我想我會鼓勵漫畫家或者文學家或者影視工作者還有剛剛講的ARV這種文化科技去把這段歷史去重視它因為裡面可以講的故事非常多而且是來自民間的故事非常精彩"},{"start":4707.764,"end":4717.918,"text":"謝謝委員的這個提醒好 謝謝部長那最後面剛剛也是剛剛部長自己有破題了那我就順便先提一下因為明年是西班牙來基隆400年的週年慶那"},{"start":4722.725,"end":4742.739,"text":"部長也講過說去年台南400年去年對吧去年台版400年展那其實非常的非常的成功那也是見請部長說在這邊能夠的話可不可以就是盡量比照辦理說台南去年怎麼樣幫台南辦好那明年怎麼樣幫我們基隆西班牙來台400年其實這一個案子其實"},{"start":4743.539,"end":4764.271,"text":"不只是說對我們自己我們基隆有深深的意義對於中華民國對於台灣在這塊土地上的歷史有很重要的含義更重要的是可以把我們基隆台灣從一般的亞洲的地圖上面整個擴散到世界地圖上面我記得沒有錯的話1626年好像是那個時候好像是西班牙還在天主教戰爭"},{"start":4765.871,"end":4790.18,"text":"還在天主教戰爭而且同時之間是西班牙好像跟英國還在海上爭霸的時候那時候西班牙的輝煌那時候西班牙的一些戰略佈局那時候西班牙的一些政策決策我覺得都可以把它拿來做我們這次四百年基隆四百年海極式門路的特展上面我覺得這樣去做的話我想"},{"start":4790.94,"end":4798.031,"text":"有機會可以把不是只有把不懂基隆人抓過來之外也可以把一些國際友人好好的拉來基隆部長您認為呢"},{"start":4798.891,"end":4825.417,"text":"是 我非常贊成而且這個是我們現在進行試因為以前的是再造歷史現在是1.0的計畫我們也做差不多了現在我們跟國發會提一個再造歷史2.0我們等它核准之後我希望我們中央跟地方一起來重建這段歷史論述包括水下資產包括很多的周邊的一些文物我們一起來做好 謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":4829.343,"end":4835.345,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝林沛翔委員部長請回我們接下來請劉淑冰委員有請李部長還有文化內容策進院的院長吳俊偉先生好 有請部長跟院長"},{"start":4865.441,"end":4868.385,"text":"今天您的報告當中有三個重點四個是文化政策 文化產業 還有文化建設我今天想針對的是文化產業的部分來做一個質詢"},{"start":4883.123,"end":4889.627,"text":"那文化產業之所以重要就在於說它本身就可以發揮到是個軟實力可以像經濟一樣的這樣子有發到後面的影響是在刮到觀光啊還有飲食啊還有在衣著等等的這後續的影響發揮到很大的效果那我們看到這個文化創意文化產業當中根據文化創意產業的這個發展法它有16項"},{"start":4907.599,"end":4915.165,"text":"這十六項當中文化部又把你們關鍵的內容上面五大產業就是影視產業、流行音樂、出版產業還有文創與文化科技、動畫與漫畫剛才你都有講到漫畫這一部分那我們就想要看它既然是個產業的話是不是要重視到它的產值那我們就往下看而且它產值因為很重要我今天把它的文化產業當中特別我想要把它重視到是它的內容是什麼"},{"start":4936.001,"end":4939.262,"text":"最重要是創意、生產、傳播、展示等等還有下面這些效果但是最重要是核心在於文化的內容是什麼往下看的時候我看一下這個產值大家看到這個表當中可以看到我國的情況在從2017年到2020年到2023年的時候看起來我們在文化產"},{"start":4958.731,"end":4968.396,"text":"在文創那部分的產值佔到我國的4點多趴等等的那去年的時候2023到4.78%看起來在GDP上是不錯的喔我們可是再看看因為你後面講到一個目標是什麼我們往下看那看到目標的情況之下呢您在去年就任三個月的時候提出來的是說要把"},{"start":4985.305,"end":5001.674,"text":"要借鏡韓流當作是我們的一個文化的國際就是把韓流當作我們的目標然後變成說文化把它視為國家的戰略把台流要推向到國際來那這個地方我想您對韓流一定是有相當的有一點研究才會說出這樣的話那我就在想說請問部長你認為韓國文化產業有哪些優勢呢"},{"start":5009.141,"end":5035.956,"text":"我想那個一個國家會推動文化產業跟國家的制度有關係韓國我非常清楚他是在2000年之後那個之前是金大中選上推翻了一個獨裁政權之後他領悟到說這個文化的產值會超過一些其他產業的可能性從那開始就推動這個韓流那推動的方式他就是鼓動自己政府用很多的經費之外"},{"start":5036.556,"end":5059.287,"text":"鼓動整個民間投資所以滾動民間投資讓大家知道這個文化也是一筆好生意可以讓國家帶來非常多的這個外匯那個一旦覺醒之後所有的民間的企業就投入創造了今天已經永遠超過各國的這個產值的一個寒流好 謝謝部長那下一頁我們來看看"},{"start":5060.367,"end":5063.469,"text":"這個部分當然我們先要剪斷一下我們台灣目前的文化產業的部分你可以看到在這個表當中藍色的部分是我們的外銷的產值那這個在我們整個的文化的產值當中大概占到十分之一左右外銷只占十分之一甚至不到這個情況那我們再往下看"},{"start":5083.16,"end":5096.498,"text":"距離說因為它發生像寒流或是說要以後台流的這個一個影響力的話呢絕對還要很大很大的要去發展還要在這個推展的空間那我們現在再看看剛才部長你有講到就是說政府的補助跟"},{"start":5098.14,"end":5102.286,"text":"跟企業這邊有些合作的部分讓他去推展這邊看到在2000年開始的時候含有這個情況好那我們現在看看台灣的情況是怎麼樣呢台灣在你的文化的這個產業當中目前就有16項裡面GDP要佔到4.78"},{"start":5113.762,"end":5123.967,"text":"可是我去看到在南韓的部分它一項的就所謂的Culture Content Industry這部分就至上在我們16項裡面大概只要一項大多或是一兩項這一部分加進來的時候它就超過7%的這個產值然後已經超過我們的兩兆台幣的話是這樣的狀況所以的確我們都還要很大的進步空間那我再定位的就是說再去"},{"start":5137.113,"end":5148.979,"text":"追究他為什麼會造成這樣的原因的情況之下就在說你說的沒有錯政策的部分資金的募集然後還有就是在政策上面文化自信多體緣多長而且表情的細膩等等還有國際的影響力那我們就繼續再往下看這部分我想要也許就填填看這個情況"},{"start":5154.221,"end":5161.284,"text":"我之前跟部長你交換過意見的時候就提到是說韓劇啊他2000年開始對不對從一個醫療關懷的時候就看得到是什麼從大產經人的關懷古代的時候然後到螞蟻對動物的關懷到太陽的後裔到聯合國的peace keeping的往外去做這樣然後到現在醫生生活這部分那這邊都是同樣的就是他的創意在這邊那我們現在往下看我想跟大家講的是說想要請問部長的是說如果你要支持台流的情況那你的市場定位是怎麼樣"},{"start":5185.472,"end":5210.747,"text":"我想資產地位一定是全世界都可以接受台流我們才可能生存下來而且是你剛才講GDP的問題但是我們先以亞洲國家作為第一個考量所以我們的國際合作裡面有蠻多是亞洲國家包括日本、越南等等然後第二個合作對象就是歐洲、法國、德國、英國等等"},{"start":5211.207,"end":5216.671,"text":"還有美國資金資本的這個運作的來源的部分那有設計國發基金對不對這個這部分國發基金的這個內容那我想請問一下那個國策院就是院長因為那邊成立的文化內容策進院那這邊請問這個國發基金這部分有100億也是蠻好的那我們從你們這個報告當中其實也看到有一些的包括評估啦然後包括他這次還有退場嘛"},{"start":5238.868,"end":5249.259,"text":"那我想要問的是說你們現在目前的評估是這個有沒有在說評估到什麼情況他可以繼續留下來然後什麼時候是不能留下來的那為什麼維持了十年才讓他退場"},{"start":5251.019,"end":5277.144,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們國發基金的投資的這個退場的規定是比照國發基金母基金的規定那它就是頭七年之後會又利用三年的時間來做退場那這個退場包含說它被下一階段投資人投資或者是往上市櫃來發展大概有多元的這個退場的機制那當然我們都很希望說從這個因為國發基金比較像是國家策略性的投資它希望在這個公司初期成長階段就能夠盡早"},{"start":5278.264,"end":5305.001,"text":"提供資金進場的這樣支持機制那也就是委員所提到韓國其實也有相關的這種類似國發基金的國家投資的資金也來支持這個產業的發展那我想政府的資金是蠻重要的跟委員報告那這一部分希望說在這個內容評鑑上面的時候事實上應該是核心在說什麼叫做台灣等於說事實上下面要問的問題要往下繼續看其他部分我們繼續往下看我們做出來的這樣的結果是看到其實是可能應該有階段性我們是期許自己剛剛"},{"start":5305.862,"end":5312.006,"text":"市場定位在東南亞、亞洲、歐洲等等可以看到但是我們看到韓國這部分定位在好萊塢的商業當然是它從2000年一直發展到現在已經20多年的效果等等另外我現在想說可能要引進所謂的私人企業如果說像國策院提到的私人基金目前還是以國家的資金去講的時候"},{"start":5331.599,"end":5343.371,"text":"要去做這個效益的評估事實上要增加的我想說這部分能不能提供三年之內的對於國策院所接受的這個案子或是說國發基金所這個案子當中可以提供這個相關的申請然後最後結果然後報告評估的報告給我們可以嗎"},{"start":5349.562,"end":5373.85,"text":"應該是可以因為我們這個文車業已經做了五年所以整個機制蠻清楚的所以這個報告應該是非常簡單的好那幫忙來報告一些行銷策略當中像Netflix這些部分國際串流的部分那我們繼續往下看好那台流這部分剛才說何時會結束那我可以問一下這個地方那你台流在發展的時候你覺得還欠缺哪些因素讓它可以再發展起來我覺得台流真的開始慢慢"},{"start":5379.257,"end":5398.514,"text":"譬如說你講今年你打開那個OTD看台劇幾乎是大爆發了而且它的那個品質跟內容是跟韓劇跟日劇是或者是中國大陸的劇是完全不同的台灣經過很長一段時間的文化融合以後其實看到了台流"},{"start":5399.235,"end":5413.965,"text":"是在今年或者去年他非常的清楚不太一樣文化部要做的是反而是要提供足夠的資金跟OTT平台讓他可以有地方可以演出所以大概是這樣"},{"start":5415.188,"end":5430.446,"text":"所以這樣的情況之下也許預計大概至少大概可能再花個15年到20年是不是這樣的意思我很難講說15年20年我們每一個產業我都有一個大概的想像他大概譬如說漫畫漫畫我們距離日本"},{"start":5431.667,"end":5449.681,"text":"韓國非常遙遠台灣人買台灣的漫畫大概只占日本漫畫的百分之三就跟剛才講的GDP差不多那我們努力三年內可以辦一個國際漫畫展但是在什麼時候可以超過韓國日本這個就當然努力啊所以這個時間點我覺得當然要加快"},{"start":5452.463,"end":5470.811,"text":"但是加快的條件就是要給我們足夠的資源像100億的這個資金就是我非常感謝這個國發會立刻投入我們的第二個100億因為我們這些選區跟韓國投資來比還是非常少的所以我希望政府能夠大力的給我們更多的預算"},{"start":5476.076,"end":5487.649,"text":"這個部分可能還是有需要再做具體的時間性可能像剛才說的只占到十分之一左右是不是可以大概說到也許在五年到十年之間的情況之下大概至少半到"},{"start":5489.09,"end":5513.948,"text":"20%左右的這個產值不然的話你要說到跟要距離韓流的話實際上還很久這個情況那我剛才已經抽到這一些部分那時間關係我只是再提到一個部分就是大概30秒就結束就是說你這個target是不是在上面這邊往下到在所謂的因為外交部有提到要提到說部部都能夠推轉外交那您對於在文化在外交上面有什麼樣的一個期許呢"},{"start":5515.024,"end":5541.927,"text":"我覺得現在就台灣目前的現狀來講文化外交變得非常非常重要外交部長也今年用了我們文化部的一個國外交的那個團展去當奧地利的那個大使我跟他最近也談了很多今年很多的合作計畫我希望台灣的文化部可以扮演一個把台灣文化推向國際之後也幫助了台灣的外交"},{"start":5542.868,"end":5566.913,"text":"進行文化外交這點說起來其實非常重要所以我還是那句話希望多給我們一點預算尤其是外交方面的需要很多的錢部長我覺得您說可能給錢事實上合理的都是必要性的但是問題是台灣文化content那個內容是什麼這部分如果像你過去有曾經提到的是都是"},{"start":5567.993,"end":5594.131,"text":"一天一天的把它批出來就是只要發包出去或是說競標之後拿進來這樣的情況之下可是本身它是不是承襲了過去的從原住民的到華倫的然後在日本的在西方的文明這部分你要可能要確認這個文化內涵是什麼如果你內涵不夠要做我剛剛說的content的不重要沒有把它核心撞起來的話其實是不夠的沒有辦法去吸引人的我想你要特別要注意到你覺得這樣的我的認為或是簡單問一下台灣文化的內涵是什麼"},{"start":5598.974,"end":5619.475,"text":"我曾經去請教過委員委員的見解我非常同意就是文化本身是一個長期因為地理環境跟政治制度所留下來產生的新東西譬如說我舉個例子大家一直在講中華文化中華文化如果留在台灣一個民主社會的制度跟留在中國"},{"start":5620.436,"end":5648.118,"text":"大陸那個獨裁政治所發展出來的文化就是不一樣那我覺得這是一個台灣非常好的機會我很有信心台灣經過這麼漫長的一個歷史的來來去去的文化台灣已經開始很有自己的能量創造出自己的文化你可以 我剛才講台劇 漫畫 文學你可以看到非常清楚它就是可以跟韓國 中國 日本區隔這就是文化"},{"start":5648.638,"end":5649.319,"text":"中華文化是一個蠻抽象的名詞"},{"start":5664.841,"end":5691.619,"text":"它歷經了幾千年的那種不同種族所產生的東西它來到台灣之後在台灣一個民主制度下它融合了非常多原住民的就像您剛才講的原住民的 西方的 日本的那個不是我想說中華文化如果留下來我就很想聽到這一部OK 那我想跟你聽嘛我覺得我們一直把中華文化跟台灣文化是形成一個對立的我覺得台灣文化跟中華文化是一個對話的"},{"start":5693.28,"end":5709.942,"text":"那中華文化是在台灣文化裡面一個部分我覺得我們會保留它比較好的可是這個中華文化在中國大陸是變成一個統戰工具它是一個工具它不是文化它也不是中國的營養這一點我一直要重複地要講"},{"start":5710.763,"end":5732.369,"text":"所以我覺得文道我最後一句就在說您說了台灣保留了中華文化非常好的部分是確定的嘛對不對在一個民主自由的在民主制度下任何文化都會朝下一個比較善良的比較正面的東西任何一個文化在一個獨裁政權它會變扭曲成一個工具而且缺少真誠的感覺"},{"start":5733.649,"end":5748.176,"text":"好 非常好 謝謝我們台灣真的是中華文化裡面可以發展的一個重要的基地好 謝謝 那當然台灣文化不只是包括中華文化還包括所有的歷史的包括日本的 美國的 原住民的好 謝謝好 謝謝劉淑冰委員 部長請回我們接下來請葛如君召委"},{"start":5766.96,"end":5772.136,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請文化部李遠部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":5778.172,"end":5807.031,"text":"各位你好部長早賴清德總統已經在3月21號公布了我們的總預算那今年呢我想文化部也增加了20幾億啦那我知道各個部會這個虛前恐急所以我也一直非常關注我們解凍的進度在一開始分配部會的時候就有跟林寅醒召委也溝通過了希望我們這個有機會可以成為一個大解凍會期那我這兩天呢也就關注這件事啦也向文化部詢問"},{"start":5808.372,"end":5831.608,"text":"結果文化部說早就已經準備好要來解凍預算了首先想再次向部長確認文化部是不是有確實準備好要來解凍預算了什麼時候可以把解凍案送進來謝謝委員問這個問題我從兩個面向來回答這個問題對不起 部長請直接回答是不是準備好什麼時候送進來"},{"start":5833.015,"end":5847.171,"text":"可是我還是很想我沒有要讓部長你做大外宣我現在很平和但是請明確回答是不是準備好什麼時候送解凍案進來我還沒準備好因為如果你看到我們被解凍被那個凍結的那個量我這邊手上一堆"},{"start":5850.735,"end":5878.337,"text":"因為這個凍結太多 多到我們外市寫這個報告會花掉我們所有時間對不起 部長 你要用手中的一張A4紙要告訴我們全台灣的藝文界文化部很需要錢 卻沒有準備好要來解凍預算嗎你是要這樣告訴全國民眾嗎還是 是不是因為有人卡在我們的主席台讓我們沒有辦法好好的來解凍預算你們有沒有這樣的擔憂呢"},{"start":5880.018,"end":5901.254,"text":"是不是這個原因呢 到底發生什麼事情呢其實很多事情它都有一個來龍去脈今年的那個凍結是多到 最後都算不清楚多到了 那你要先從前面開始處理嘛那有沒有要送進來 有沒有要送第一個案子我覺得我們的預算的問題 從你委員開始的第一句話"},{"start":5902.509,"end":5925.082,"text":"我就很想解釋我們哪裡有多26億那你今年的預算是不是增加的我說20多億啊是不是增加的我以下的話全部請大家錄音我不會講錯我們今年編的預算跟去年差不多我們被刪了11億沒有什麼差不多編的預算到底是多還是少沒有差不多部長編的預算比去年多兩三億可是經過了"},{"start":5930.525,"end":5936.41,"text":"刪掉10億然後動了34億我們絕對沒有多26億但是我想部長這兩天您最熱門的新聞就確實在預算啦您拿了一個碗公到處說自己不是要飯的本席鄭重在此表示您當然不是要飯的您是煮飯的"},{"start":5954.909,"end":5981.878,"text":"您是中華民國月領二十萬四千三百二十元然後年薪超過兩百五十萬手握將近三百億文化預算的文化部部長根據你們提供的資料你們凍結的五億當中有四億也就是凍結數量當中的八成"},{"start":5983.26,"end":6008.894,"text":"都是可以書面解凍的只要文化部書面報告送進來這些錢立刻就可以使用另外還有委員會部分凍結1.1億元院會部分凍結28億元雖然是專案報告後解凍但是我們本來認為你們都準備好了結果您剛剛告訴我你沒有準備好"},{"start":6009.946,"end":6032.175,"text":"我也相信現在坐在台上的林錦昭委一定全力支持文化部來解凍預算但是您竟然不斷地身居高位拿著全體國民的納稅錢的捧路手握300億的文化預算拿了晚工到處走透透說自己不是要飯的我要在此說 部長"},{"start":6033.155,"end":6060.18,"text":"當然不是要飯的 您是煮飯的你要讓整個文化產業蒸蒸日上你不只要煮飯 你還要蒸飯你還要拿飯粒出來 要解凍飯要把整個產業做起來結果您剛剛在跟我說沒準備好我們剛剛也錄音啦那我想喔 這個部長什麼時候解凍案我再給您回應一次有沒有什麼時候可以把解凍案送進來書面報告八成喔"},{"start":6065.629,"end":6089.831,"text":"主席時間暫停我希望讓部長回答什麼時候送進來你不能一句話說好多解凍案就不能做學生做好多功課可以說不教功課嗎委員可不可以讓我講一句所謂的解凍有解凍的條件書面報告我剛剛已經說了八成是書面報告如果解凍的條件我做不到怎麼辦譬如說有一個解凍的理由是有一筆錢給到社會清了"},{"start":6090.732,"end":6116.323,"text":"請把錢要回來交出公務員我做一個文化部長我會犧牲公務員嗎所以我想解凍不是這麼簡單好 謝謝部長讓你解釋了那我就問你什麼時候送進來第一個案子什麼時候送進來你一個都沒辦法解凍嗎所以您在這裡要告訴全體國民你一個案子都解凍不了嗎你一個書面報告都做不出來嗎有一些案子也是民進黨委員提案的喔這不是黨派的問題喔"},{"start":6120.717,"end":6141.476,"text":"部長時間沒有辦法提出沒有關係我知道您心裡在想什麼我知道行政院下達什麼樣的指令我們不要講這個沒關係預算的部分我們剛才已經說明我們還有待會還有機會您再說明好不好談到預算我想除了文化部應該要積極解凍以外近來媒體也頻頻報導"},{"start":6142.617,"end":6157.954,"text":"央廣有爆發造假、詐領的爭議每年政府的補助金額超過央廣收入的八成結果我們看到這份報告一直拒絕提供直到有非常多委員去爭取了以後才提供出來"},{"start":6159.554,"end":6181.58,"text":"部長我們人民不值得去了解真相嗎我們不值得嗎我們先說我們還是很謝謝央廣很謝謝文化部提供出來啦我們就相信是值得的那我就請問部長這個乍領案除了委外調查花了百萬當然還是很感謝公開文化部的政風單位有沒有進行行政調查有或沒有"},{"start":6187.541,"end":6194.807,"text":"這邊的報告是110就開始有行政調查有行政調查然後之後送到檢調單位是 行政調查為什麼不能提供行政調查的內容我們向文化部索取啊現在會計調查我們花了四年好不容易要到了行政調查為什麼不能提供"},{"start":6214.437,"end":6236.149,"text":"那個你們要求那個會計調查報告我們有索取啊文化部沒有提供啊有吧現在哪一位委員手上有拿到的文化部哪一個官員有提出的現在立刻說出來主席那個時間可不可以暫停一下我們確認我真的不想要冤枉我們的公務同仁有沒有提供行政調查的報告時間暫停 謝謝可以嗎 主席"},{"start":6241.519,"end":6264.426,"text":"等一下 我再多給你時間就好好 謝謝主席 不好意思 請很抱歉 跟委員報告 央廣所做的調查都已經通過董事會也向文化部提出我說向全民提供啊 立法委員索取能不能提供為什麼拒不提供關心的立法委員索取我們都提供了再去識別不影響...行政調查不是會計調查 行政調查結果"},{"start":6266.482,"end":6279.532,"text":"行政調查在央廣的部分已經有人當年就記過而且鎖回這個部分我們可以提供資料謝謝請問文化部部長我們能不能索取行政調查的報告委員請索取"},{"start":6284.114,"end":6304.865,"text":"所以拜託提供一下那另外我想這個弊案爆發以後113年文化部再次按表操課結果113年做這個實地查核每三年做一次結果已經發生了這麼多年了107年110年相比完全沒有增加任何的查核項目請問文化部要如何確定相同的弊案不會再發生部長"},{"start":6306.55,"end":6323.061,"text":"你一再的宣講一再的講到預算本席要再次的強調我們就是要來監督的我們的民主社會就是要有監督制衡的力量這些錢都是人民的血汗錢部長您年薪超過250萬央廣董事長年薪超過180萬兩位合計的年薪超過430萬結果文化部拿出這樣的績效民眾會滿意嗎我想這個"},{"start":6331.327,"end":6358.418,"text":"不管是要實地增加查核的次數跟查核的項目文化部本身修改作業要點就可以做到我們可以讓這件事情不要再發生甚至要去查核其他的有沒有相關類似的狀況在其他的單位發生文化部不能再行政帶墮下去部長您全台宣講的時候不斷的攜帶一個晚工說是要飯我再一次希望能夠讓部長知道您不是要飯的您是煮飯的所以我今天"},{"start":6359.656,"end":6382.506,"text":"特別準備了一個我們台灣七八十年代的臉盆Made in Taiwan來自賴清德總統長期久待的台南本席特別利用今天的這個機會想要把這個家喻戶曉非常常見文化的物件臉盆當作一個聚寶盆送給部長"},{"start":6383.766,"end":6403.679,"text":"您絕對不是要飯的您是煮飯的你是要創造機會的你是要把錢放大的你是要放到整個產業來所有的弊案我們不要讓它再發生要像聚寶盆一樣百倍千倍的成長這個價值不是煮飯的您是要"},{"start":6404.64,"end":6429.963,"text":"您不是要飯的 您是要煮飯的您是要聚寶盆 您是要用這個盆子來打水來煮飯讓我們整個產業真正日上再來我想這個我反正當作禮物送給您了我希望能夠讓您知道部長您這個跑透透啦也希望您偶爾可以看一下網路民間的聲音我們仔細看了一下您今天的報告"},{"start":6431.73,"end":6458.497,"text":"這份報告裡面14次提到人才培育但是很抱歉裡面完全沒有對於維護藝文工作者的勞動權益去說明隻字未提部長您知道嗎你每天拿著晚工去宣講的時候這個所謂的靠北藝術的粉專上面你會發現低薪高工時已經是藝文工作者面臨到的常態而且不好意思部長"},{"start":6459.477,"end":6466.022,"text":"我真的要告訴您文化部本身居然就是剝削藝文工作者的慣老闆之一這邊不聞提到這個這個一個專案助理文化部聘用的碩士學歷起薪不到4萬塊不到4萬塊"},{"start":6479.946,"end":6492.839,"text":"我們確認了一下我們上文化部人士服務網一查還真的碩士級助理起薪不到4萬另外一篇頗文提到如果是受聘於派遣機構我不管你是什麼學歷畢業的28590塊"},{"start":6497.483,"end":6522.713,"text":"兩萬八千五百九十塊部長當你領著二十萬的月薪你在台上高呼你不是要飯的人我不曉得這群長期忍受低薪高工時還在為藝術燃燒生命的文化人才這是財已經變成柴火的柴他們的內心做了感想隨便上網一查我真的不是在錯怪文化部我們幫您比較過了我們上網一查文化部"},{"start":6524.714,"end":6547.817,"text":"國教署的專案計劃專任助理碩士級起薪超過4萬國科會專任助理碩士級起薪高於4萬部長一樣是專案助理為什麼藝文工作者不能享有和其他行業一樣的待遇為什麼文化部不能像其他部會一樣在薪資待遇上表現出對專業應有的尊重為什麼你可不可以在這裡回答我"},{"start":6549.97,"end":6563.679,"text":"這些薪水我其實大概都知道有的是研究員他完全按照政府原來的那個我們的薪水其實很呆板就是按照政府規定的那個錢但是我承認他不高但是我也想藉這個機會"},{"start":6565.02,"end":6586.413,"text":"要跟您講第一個我沒有全台走透透第二個您不斷的提到我的高薪說我個人坐領高薪跟坐領高位這樣是不對的因為我每個禮拜的工作七天我如果不來上班的話我在家裡自己工作都非常輕鬆的我絕對不是坐領高位坐領高薪"},{"start":6587.273,"end":6596.834,"text":"我其實充滿了很想改變文化界的問題您講的每件事情我都很憂心但是我絕對不是一個坐領高薪坐領高位的"},{"start":6598.842,"end":6620.1,"text":"我收回做領這兩個字但是您是領高興沒錯我們還是要強調不好意思主席再給我幾分鐘我想我們的這個薪資十年來文化工作者維持45萬到53萬之間您提到我們要來處理這些問題我們真的是要來好好的來關照一下"},{"start":6620.54,"end":6645.991,"text":"服務業的年薪增長幅度高達24%服務業全年薪資69.5萬結果我們的創作以及表演藝術全年總薪資53.3萬元我希望文化部部長部長您可不可以一週內對於如何促進藝文工作者的勞動權益我們之前還有提到健保補助等等不是健保補助就是健檢的補助能不能補充書面報告給本席"},{"start":6648.058,"end":6663.41,"text":"其實我們一直在進行這個這個諮詢跟這個結果但是你說一週內我得看看我們的同仁 兩週可不可以 多久好 真的不能再拖了其實你講的問題是我們最關心的問題是主席我最後一小段最後一小段"},{"start":6664.25,"end":6684.936,"text":"最後有一個比較先進的構想我想文化部部長也是希望能夠創新目前台灣沒有專門的機構去保障文化藝術工作者的勞動權益剛剛你也提到了韓國的文化我們可以比較韓國為例文化觀光體育部之下有設中介組織其中有專門推動藝術家福利的基金會負責提升藝術勞動的權益制定合理的契約標準希望部長能夠來比照來提出這個"},{"start":6692.403,"end":6720.754,"text":"好我想這個我們會後書面報告主席都已經站起來了最後非常感謝部長的詢答啦我希望您還是用正面的態度我們看了報告T-Comic很棒同時也拜託您幫獨立遊戲創作者去聲援一下他們最近也遇到了一些狀況也希望部長您始終都是我心目中尊敬的偶像我們一起來為台灣的文化為各種多元文化來努力好不好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝部長好謝謝葛如君召委部長請回"},{"start":6722.489,"end":6741.181,"text":"我們先宣告一下等一下在陳秀寶委員諮詢完之後我們休息十分鐘然後我們後面我們這個後面那幅畫是文化部提供是我們那個台灣藝術家陳一如的畫作未知新喜那我想"},{"start":6741.881,"end":6764.049,"text":"在所有的委員會的審查會議室裡頭也只有我們教育委員會有這樣的畫作欣賞每個會期我們會更換一幅畫我們再次謝謝文化部提供這樣的一個畫作好 那我們是不是下一位請林月琴委員 那時間四分鐘 謝謝主席麻煩我們的文化部部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":6777.712,"end":6806.719,"text":"部長早今天我還是想延續過去我對文化部的質詢聚焦在我一直非常關心的重點我們的文化政策到底有沒有提供給我們的兒童跟青少年夠優質更貼近他們的需求跟興趣的電視節目跟藝文活動那我待會看到聽完部長的報告我也看到一些努力就給予肯定像114年你們就增加了少年節目"},{"start":6807.259,"end":6824.311,"text":"那下一頁部長今年的文化幣擴及到國中生我覺得是一件非常好的事情可是錢發了到底給青少年的多元藝文活動的節目在哪裡這是我想問的文化部除了我們的扶持我們的影視產業"},{"start":6825.512,"end":6843.273,"text":"那來到劇場呢事實上兒童劇算非常多甚至你們的報告裡面還有提到說你們要培養兒童劇團那可是我們看到兒童劇已經非常多可是青少年專屬的作品就少得可憐所以北一大的老師有提出來是說三年來可能不到十部"},{"start":6843.914,"end":6867.373,"text":"而我們要如何鼓勵青少年走出螢幕走到劇場參與體驗跟更多元的藝文活動可是看韓國他們像這個有貞與有貞這樣聚焦在青少年生活而且觸及到我們性剝削議題的音樂劇那他現在也來台灣演出即將已經演完了所以而且叫好又叫座所以"},{"start":6868.214,"end":6873.464,"text":"我想問部長文化部怎麼去補這個落差讓我們的青少年劇團創作你打算怎麼扶持"},{"start":6877.167,"end":6903.645,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題其實這個有關青少年這個戲劇跟那個團體還有讓青少年走進來看這個表演一直是我們文化部非常非常努力在做的事情那今天我們也推出了幾個文化部表演藝術青少年節目開發的申請這是過去沒有的在2025年1月6號到2月14號辦理目前已經截止而且也選出來"},{"start":6907.568,"end":6926.762,"text":"這個部分過去大概沒有在做不過我覺得我們辦公室跟這個計畫的審查委員去了解計畫的提案數相對的是少的那提案劇團多數不熟青少年的需求甚至他們偏好是什麼而且不了解青少年的議題跟生活缺乏在地的原創劇本"},{"start":6928.303,"end":6951.107,"text":"所以導致呢可審的案件非常有限所以想問部長這補助案要如何跳脫曇花一線設定長期目標而且甚至我覺得如果你有已經你的報告裡面有培養兒童劇團那我不知道為什麼不能去扶持我們的有關的青少年劇團就完全是為了青少年演出的更貼近他們的"},{"start":6951.887,"end":6981.187,"text":"創作跟內容的我覺得這應該要去想的啦為什麼這麼停啊因為很多劇場工作者跟學者都告訴我劇本是一個一出戲的靈魂要有打動青少年的演出就要為他們而寫的內容為他們而寫那有他們聲音所以我兩個具體的建議部長可不可以參考看看就是說在表演藝術青少年你現在已經一月就開始了我還是很肯認這個非常棒的可是呢"},{"start":6981.847,"end":6996.482,"text":"是不是今年如果在整個的過程當中甚至到最後結果的時候成果的時候可不可以納入青少年跟青年聚場工作者來參與整個你的方案的整個的檢視讓青少年的使用者的意見"},{"start":6997.731,"end":7016.017,"text":"能夠進得了公共的決策現場這是我第一個那第二個就是從源頭補劇本也就是沒有屬於青少年的劇本就不會有屬於他們的劇場的風景我相信部長非常了解所以建議文化部推動中央跟地方的文學獎"},{"start":7017.337,"end":7040.856,"text":"普色舞台劇劇本創作這個項目還有呢同時鼓勵增加青少年主題的類別甚至可不可以考量一下參照台南文學獎增加青少年組引導更多的創作者投入這塊缺口因為我看過很多高中生他們自導自演還蠻不錯的很精彩而且他們不是只觀眾他們也是一個創作者啦所以這個"},{"start":7041.716,"end":7069.691,"text":"希望部長能夠考慮最後大概就是以剛才我提的這兩個我希望部長這邊是不是可以一個月內給我這個報告我剛剛提出來的委員剛剛講幾個問題都是我們最關心而且我們正在執行的譬如把漫畫文學舞台劇下降到高中生他們也參與創作這個我們都正在做我想我們立刻給你提一個報告要培養人才謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":7074.073,"end":7077.554,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝林委員接下來請林益謹召委諮詢好 謝謝主席 有請李部長請部長"},{"start":7096.11,"end":7122.707,"text":"林委員您好好 部長好剛剛國務軍召委在指責您拿那個挖工啦齁其實我是還蠻替您抱屈的喔因為您是在替藝文工作者所有影視工作者抱不平是因為當初陳玉珍委員說請他們丟掉那支要飯的碗"},{"start":7123.988,"end":7131.631,"text":"那國民黨的這些同委員們如果認為陳玉珍這句話是失言那他們那時候為什麼沒有出來譴責所以我覺得這個另外我覺得剛剛也一直在提說為什麼你們這個解凍的這個溯源報告還不趕快送進來"},{"start":7145.197,"end":7157.711,"text":"殊不知他們國民黨他們立法院韓國瑜主政的立法院2月19號才送出國家總預算那被他們亂山亂動的這個國家總預算2月19號才送出來那難道我們"},{"start":7163.137,"end":7182.814,"text":"現在要叫我們就要馬上寫出完整的報告難道我們要像國民黨一樣這種提案預算提案都這樣亂寫一通嗎所以我想這個我想我要藉這個機會要做一些說明我想今天我們來提到所謂的文化建設"},{"start":7183.575,"end":7207.343,"text":"其實文化建設大不易 必路難旅那從1920年代台灣第一批接受現代化教育的知識分子就開始活躍起來所以台灣人的意識也在那個時候開始萌芽那當時的行動者就發現其實文化實際上是一個抵抗殖民政策的戰場所以才必須要建設台灣的文化而不是純粹的模仿中國"},{"start":7210.277,"end":7231.947,"text":"也唯有這樣子我們才能所謂的真正獨當一面來促進社會的進步那這種在文化工作上的努力其實我們至今也沒有停止過那台灣人的努力也常常成為政治打壓的目標就如同日本殖民者透過黃民化的運動那試圖改造台灣人這個文化的認同那持續"},{"start":7233.468,"end":7260.275,"text":"殖民地體制的中國國民黨他就長期利用黨國的教育來貶低台灣的文化到了2025的今天同樣又是中國國民黨又利用思想的審查政治懲戒的方式來大煽大動我們台灣珍貴的文化資產那這一次文化部預算總共被刪除11億凍結了34億那其中媒體宣傳費"},{"start":7261.895,"end":7285.453,"text":"更是全部被刪除所以不只導致說今年的大阪世界博覽會的相關宣傳活動必須全面停止文化幣跟黃牛房市的費用也要停擺就連推廣閱讀搶救舒適的這種相關宣傳活動同樣也要止步甚至說連民間團體藝文工作者思想"},{"start":7286.554,"end":7306.875,"text":"和我們的政治參與自由國民黨都可以透過這樣的砍山預算來威脅所以我實在是不理解國民黨到底跟我們台灣文化有多大的深仇大恨好 那今天的業務報告當中文化部也有提到說今年的預算被山洞的幅度相當的大"},{"start":7307.495,"end":7320.836,"text":"對文化部的工作業務推動造成相當大的衝擊所以我想藉這個機會請部長說明一下說我們今年的預算動砍您最痛心之處在哪裡那未來你要怎麼樣因應部長"},{"start":7323.197,"end":7344.356,"text":"我最痛心之處非常多剛剛您講到那個媒體宣傳費刪掉5943萬其實刪到最後還付100萬要我們從別的地方再拿100萬來就是說我難過的不是說我錢變少因為錢變少我只要少做一點就可以我難過的是他們在刪的時候"},{"start":7345.157,"end":7361.734,"text":"他完全沒有道理的刪一些我完全不懂為什麼要刪這些因為刪這些只有針對我們公務機關的公務員的工作造成困擾比如國內外旅費水電委辦特別費造成我們很大的困擾"},{"start":7363.639,"end":7390.765,"text":"譬如說我舉個例子我們去年跟人家簽約的一些我們團體要出國了那個旅費不夠你知道我們怎麼辦嗎我們找企業家贊助我們最近要跟京都辦一個漫畫館只有五萬塊錢的預算只剩下五萬塊錢的交通費他們來找我說部長怎麼辦我說我也沒辦法難道最後是要自己掏腰包嗎最後找企業一個國家一個文化部要做到這個程度"},{"start":7391.525,"end":7417.749,"text":"要去跟企業贊助所以我有時候實在講不清楚我那個難過就是你一直說我有三百億我沒有啊我們的文化預算一直是很少的占全部的總預算不到一長年以來台灣的文化從以前到現在它就是一個蠻弱勢的那在這個情況下你不但不能傷我的你還得給我多一點你要知道預算的編列不是你想像中要編多少就編多少"},{"start":7418.629,"end":7446.474,"text":"當初我們在編預算的時候就算是跟行政院主計處跟行政院長都是一點一點要來的多要一點多要一點他絕對不是一個說看你高興編一點一點要來然後在文化委員會我想主席你也在現場文化委員會本來要砍多少錢我們站起來一直辯論一直理性的辯論爭取到每一毛錢都不要刪掉最後我們算多少呢算兩千萬"},{"start":7448.403,"end":7471.626,"text":"兩千萬是經過多餐時間討論的結果這兩千萬不抵他們的一算一算就要八十億八十億後來我們去求他要求他說我們一定要這個錢你不能不給我們最後變成最後答案是三十一億動三十四億三十一億跟動三十四億跟前面的兩千萬差多少"},{"start":7472.266,"end":7487.177,"text":"這就是我難過的地方因為他最後刪到的是還是文化人的錢你少給我兩千萬我就少一團的錢你少給我兩千萬我就少四十團出國去就這麼簡單"},{"start":7489.258,"end":7508.45,"text":"你替大歲人看緊荷包你沒有看到任何荷包你只有讓大家更慘我們整個文化界充滿了焦慮本來有一些補助該過年前就拿到第一筆了過年前拿到第一筆發薪水要過一個新年的結果不但拿不到"},{"start":7509.29,"end":7530.01,"text":"過完年還拿不到我當然是非常焦慮囉我非常焦慮因為最後大家就會怪到我們說你為什麼不爭取預算呢就是說我蠻無奈的我在這邊藉這個機會要講就是說今天不是講我還有26億我多26億都不是要講這個其實我終究有很長一段時間不想講預算要講的實在是"},{"start":7530.951,"end":7535.793,"text":"我不是來辯論預算的我是來工作的我希望趕快給我錢我們可以把這個錢用在福祉產業我們每個地方都缺錢嘛每一個行業都缺錢嘛那這個錢又不是要到我們每一個公務員的口袋都不是啊所以你刪的錢是刪到全人民的錢你並沒有幫人民看管這個荷包你是把大家該得的"},{"start":7557.642,"end":7574.788,"text":"很那個一點點卑微的那個文化的補助刪掉文化人90%都靠自己在生活啊我在文化界工作了50年欸我沒拿過政府補助我靠自己活下來同樣的許多年輕人活在這個時代他比我們過去更慘"},{"start":7575.854,"end":7601.955,"text":"因為文化的那個狀況比過去更差他們必須靠自己去打工賺錢當家教當無本我講過了他們很少能拿到公共電視的錢他們很少能拿到文化部的錢文化部是一種獎勵他不是補助來四十團只能給三團五團剩下都拿不到這是我很感謝你給我機會講這個大家有時候講來講去會把事情模糊掉這麼簡單的道理"},{"start":7603.897,"end":7620.214,"text":"嗯這就是我心頭的地方啊好 部長辛苦我想剛剛葛昭偉他也搞不好清楚一直說緊門解凍案要趕快送進來其實送進來還要從院會去院會還要交付程序文會程序文會"},{"start":7621.175,"end":7642.963,"text":"在透過這個報告事項在交付教育委員會那個還要走那個程序喔不是好像說直接送到所謂的教育委員會我們就可以馬上來排審所以我想這個也要藉著機會跟大家報告好 那我想再來借一點後面的時間來跟部長討論熱身的問題喔你也知道說我長期關心熱身那我很感謝就是說"},{"start":7644.764,"end":7662.657,"text":"我們部長有拿出願意面對熱身的誠意那明天下午一點就要由陳紀民局長來主持熱身療養院文化資產協商會議要討論一些包括登陸世界遺產、恢復熱身人口的景觀一些等等相關的計畫"},{"start":7663.638,"end":7691.697,"text":"那明天會議要開始之前我想我在這裡還是要做一些要求就是說期待說我們在明天的開會中我們應該要做的啦我想部長對這樣的誠意我是非常清楚可是我們一定要做的比過往部長至少像榮應台當初還有親自到過熱身過就是說我們對這個世界遺產潛力點要更有正面價值的處置而不是說讓熱身療養院這個問題"},{"start":7694.619,"end":7697.522,"text":"這件事情我想委員一直很關心我想請局長報告一下因為我們馬上就要開會好 局長"},{"start":7716.338,"end":7740.039,"text":"那我想大家比較關切的就是世界遺產這個議題世界遺產現在目前是我們18處世界遺產潛力點之一那我們現在部裡面也成立了第6屆的世界遺產推動會也都持續在開會那在相關的議題當中未來我們會跟我們的這有關的衛福部啦還有新北市政府因為我們資質的主管計劃是他相關的議題裡面都會適時的邀請他們來共同參與"},{"start":7742.86,"end":7766.686,"text":"那我想最後再花一點點時間就是我要跟部長討論那個華氏民股買回的相關問題我想部長你有表示就是說華氏定位的問題那解決民股買回你覺得說如果所謂的他們願意賣那當然你也就法規容許那我們也願意買所以目前到底民股買回有什麼樣的進度嗎"},{"start":7768.666,"end":7794.591,"text":"如果說公管集團沒有辦法百分之百持股的話那我們怎麼談華氏的活化的問題我想這個是不是再簡單回答一下好 目前華氏的民股占百分之十六點七六可是裡面有四家是比較大的台塑 中興 森保跟富地他們占百分之十他們曾經來公文他們願意賣而且賣的價錢就可以在我們十九年前我們開那個價格"},{"start":7796.091,"end":7810.977,"text":"但是剩下的那個零零星星個人股大概還有百分之六點七大概有九十九位股東那最近我跟胡董也坐下來聊了他認為說大概還剩兩三個就可以找到全部了"},{"start":7811.517,"end":7839.136,"text":"如果是這樣的話我想他是一個要很慎重考慮的我們政府決定要撥多少錢可以接受把民股買回來那這個民股買回來的目的是成為一個資產這個資產就歸這個公共公款集團然後我們要怎麼運用它值不值得買回來買回來之後它會不會更好這個我想不是一個好像我隨口講說買回來之後我們就把它怎麼樣怎麼樣因為它買回來之後我們要繼續怎麼做"},{"start":7841.557,"end":7867.476,"text":"然後他會不會繼續虧因為他現在已經跟銀行借了43億了嘛43億是一個不能再借錢的那個意思喔那剛剛不是講到說什麼空間不夠他就是沒有錢賺所以他會把空間盡量租出去嘛那我也很同情他因為開始虧嘛所以這個問題謝謝委員會問這個問題我很希望在有可能的至少在我任內喔往前踏一步好期待 OK 謝謝部長"},{"start":7872.047,"end":7873.689,"text":"謝謝 林怡琼召委諮詢 部長請回座那我們接下來就請陳秀寶委員諮詢謝主席 部長 請部長好 有請部長"},{"start":7895.751,"end":7913.801,"text":"蔡委員你好部長好其實講到預算的部分我就覺得很心疼也覺得部長您真的很辛苦也很無奈這個等一下我們再來討論這邊先想請教部長有關於附中的演藝工作者的指引我們什麼時候會提供其實近年來屢屢有提"},{"start":7915.121,"end":7935.392,"text":"發聲說說台灣的演藝工作者在中國的網路平台他因為配合發布中國統戰的這個圖文那我本席相信說我們台灣的民眾會很希望也會很支持文化部你們做出指引所以希望文化部這邊可以給一個我們大概什麼時候會有一個明確指引發布的時間讓我們附中的演藝工作者有所依詢"},{"start":7937.25,"end":7965.221,"text":"基本上過去我們不會針對特定的對象對他做出任何規定我們就配合那個陸委會他本身有一個對於去中國的演藝人員的一些規範那經過這一波下來之後發現那些規範可能不夠了所以我們最近有從文化部的角度擬了好幾條會希望建議給這個陸委會包括說我們的去中國發展的藝人他們如果參加"},{"start":7966.141,"end":7980.951,"text":"他們的晚會什麼如果在那個晚會中他做出對我們貶抑台灣或者是做出對我們不利的就是不要有不當的發言對 就像這種我們會變更具體然後他有些商業活動"},{"start":7981.952,"end":7996.783,"text":"有沒有附帶條件是需要再講說我是中國人台灣是中國的一部分你的商業活動裡面有沒有這個附帶條件我們會對這個事情比過去更積極一點其實會比較明確一點我建議文化部這邊你們其實在指引中可以很明確地點出違法的樣態讓相關的人員知道說什麼樣子的行為是違反了我們兩岸人民關係條例也讓相關的從業者知道說哪些行為是有疑慮的"},{"start":8010.914,"end":8035.984,"text":"所以現在文化部已經在研擬了是已經很具體了好那大概什麼時候會發布我們就會配合陸委會因為我們最近一直在談的條文更具體那我們的譬如我們行政調查是跟著陸委會走文化部他沒有調查權所以我們是要跟陸委會一起做就是配合陸委會這邊我們會配合他然後條文的修正我們也提供給他我們的意見好 謝謝部長"},{"start":8037.865,"end":8055.339,"text":"好那我們就來談一下我們文化部這邊被大規模且不合理的煽動的這個情況之下我們為了相關文化發展及宣傳很焦慮的時候其實很多的文化人卻背負著討飯要飯的這個罵名本席真的覺得非常的心疼非常的難過部長您認為"},{"start":8058.401,"end":8085.099,"text":"當申請文化部的補助我們依循著政策及國家發展的方向製作相關影視音作品這是對的嗎這是我們依循著國家政策跟國家發展方向來製作影視音作品然後我們申請文化部的補助這個方向是對的嗎一定要做因為很多產業必須靠我們政府的一些政策還有一些經費的補助其實我們補助的是整個產業啦"},{"start":8087.166,"end":8099.275,"text":"對 但是文化部呢 你們部長您認為文化部是應該只作為資源分配者不負責把關還是應該要有文化相關制定的這個方向有方針才是對的"},{"start":8100.99,"end":8126.586,"text":"基本上我們是一個言論很自由的地方我們不會特別限制送來的題材申請的題材我們嚴格限制要哪一種但是我們會從送來題材裡面挑選比較有國際性的比較商業在文化上比較深度的對於文化部來講我們不會訂條文但是我們會朝著我們希望的一個文化走向來做選擇部長針對"},{"start":8128.107,"end":8148.897,"text":"國民黨籍某立委說 受到很多文化部的檢舉案就說你們只要是不按照這個意識形態就不給補助 這個部長您說明一下其實我必須憑良心講這是胡說八道我自己經歷過一個戒嚴時代所有的輔導金 所有的評審都可以作弊有關說 我都經歷過當評審"},{"start":8151.055,"end":8169.983,"text":"到了後來2000年政黨輪替慢慢走向自由的時候我必須告訴你連我都不知道哪一部戲被選上我完全授權給評審評審選完送到我那邊來我看到那一刻我才知道是誰被選上中間完全沒有關說完全沒有壓力所以"},{"start":8170.943,"end":8181.552,"text":"說我們文化部會意識形態的控制是沒有了解台灣社會如何從一個戒嚴黨國體制走到一個多麼自由的社會"},{"start":8183.3,"end":8202.482,"text":"對 所以說針對這位立委這樣的說法是完全不正確的完全用想像的這邊其實本席要強調就是說文化部的這個經費補助其實跟很多的地方活動及地方再造是有關的那我們補助重點文化產業國家語言這個發展是我們一直在努力的目標"},{"start":8203.263,"end":8216.358,"text":"我們要把需要國家力量扶植的文化產業把對於國家文化有熱忱的文化人我們要去扶植他我們要去鼓勵他我們要去支持他但是說成是要犯賊這是非常非常傷人的"},{"start":8218.26,"end":8244.858,"text":"接下來還是要討論關於我們預算的部分我們文化外交的部分呢部長我相信你們您對我們之前我們對文化部我們這些相關的文化外交運動外交我們把視為我們重要的軟實力這個您也很認同所以你很致力很努力的在推展我們也希望透過文化的交流讓國際間看到我們台灣的活力我們台灣的創造力包容力以及展現我們民族的底蘊"},{"start":8248.26,"end":8274.039,"text":"很大的好评我们做的这个珍珠奶茶鸡排的小徽章是深受各国选手的喜爱这就是我们文化外交可爱温暖又吸引人的地方那我们本来文化部呢预计在114年8月在大阪办理的这个台湾艺文系列的展演呢9月份也会参加全球最大的新媒体艺术节就是在奥地利的林姿电子艺术节"},{"start":8275.441,"end":8291.147,"text":"本席想要請教說那這些文化外交的活動我們會不會因為預算被煽動有所影響因為我知道說外交部跟文化部是兩大完全被刪除宣傳費的重災戶那這個相關的預算被煽動之後我們"},{"start":8296.369,"end":8305.806,"text":"相關的這些活動會不會有所影響還有我們文化部橋下的博物館114年有沒有安排到國外展覽規劃然後被這些山東預算而影響的"},{"start":8307.613,"end":8326.339,"text":"我分兩個重點來講如果我們大阮世博要到日本去我們本來有編個大概兩千萬的那個沒宣費那兩千萬被刪掉之後我們就整個的宣傳片沒有其實沒宣費被刪除這件事情使得我們每件活動"},{"start":8327.239,"end":8347.811,"text":"都沒辦法宣傳這才是很重要因為你活動辦下去沒有人知道那這個很嚴重譬如文化幣我們希望更多人知道可是我沒有錢宣傳文化幣所以整個以前我們邊在預算邊在交流師要出國去補助很多人住村或者表演團體出國"},{"start":8349.432,"end":8375.102,"text":"其實那個錢說了很心酸大概都一二十萬一二十萬就這個錢你幫我一三兩千萬的話我這些團都出不去了那大阪師伯我不能宣傳了那林佳龍部長也很可憐因為他是外交部就他都不能出國他來找我們的意思就是說我們也想用兩個部的力量看能不能把這個活動做得比較多一點人知道"},{"start":8375.982,"end":8390.292,"text":"我們兩個在討論的時候都在說 你有沒有錢 我有沒有錢你可不可以多出一點你不覺得兩個這麼大的部門只是去國外做個活動要這麼可憐到互相說你可不可以多出一點這就是我其實一直在覺得這麼一點點錢都不給我們的話"},{"start":8393.334,"end":8410.865,"text":"那我們台灣的文化本來你看看去年它就已經在國外已經開花結果了表演團體 文學 各種藝術它已經開花結果了為什麼在這個時候你再多給我們一點點都不會為過何況你把我刪掉 刪得比去年還少那這就是重點了"},{"start":8411.735,"end":8440.156,"text":"那這些受影響的這些部分呢我們除了剛剛部長您說的可能會找企業來協助對我覺得這個時候我們就只好靠一些民間的力量譬如說這次大阪世博民間就發起一個是台灣的館就是說我覺得台灣的民間社會是最可愛的當我們不行的時候他們可能會站出來幫忙我剛剛前面已經解釋了我們出國的錢去找企業贊助"},{"start":8441.657,"end":8464.579,"text":"那個車 飛機票那一刻我一方面很心酸一方面我覺得還好我們有民間力量 也很感動對謝謝部長 本席這邊要強調就是說其實預算的合理刪減對部會是有鞭策的效果但是我們現在面對的是說不合理的刪減其實也是對我們文化人很不合理的這個批評跟待遇這個部分我也希望文化部你們要堅持"},{"start":8465.9,"end":8492.926,"text":"繼續努力 我們一起努力 一起打拼喔那接下來我還要關心的這個部分也是因為預算被刪喔我們本來預計在台南喔這個首府大學它退場之後我們要把它做為一個典藏中心但是現在這個一億元全數遭刪除那相信也是影響未來藏品這個空間的規劃跟安排因為我們這個典藏是本來是要來收藏本土的作品喔那現在這個預算被刪了之後我們後續呢我們要如何來持續這個相關的計畫"},{"start":8495.207,"end":8520.27,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題其實長期以來文化部都有典藏的不夠的問題因為文化部有非常多博物館關市台南就有文學館歷史博物館那我們本來就不夠所以我們要蓋在首府大學是一個聯合典藏中心希望蓋一個很大的聯合典藏中心把原來不夠的地方可以補足那台南國家美術館成立關市"},{"start":8521.591,"end":8550.318,"text":"陳承波的後代就捐了兩千件東西給我們可是他捐不出來因為我們沒有地方可以放嘛所以你可以想像民間這麼多人願意捐這麼珍貴的東西給我們我們一個國家一個文化部竟然拿不出一個典藏中心去接納那我們編了一億這一億只夠我們剛開始規劃到啟動可能還要好幾年才做好你把我一億刪掉之後就表示我這件事情又要再等一年"},{"start":8551.138,"end":8579.008,"text":"那我覺得不是不能刪預算是要知道那個每一筆預算它的目的是什麼它的用處在哪裡它會影響很深遠你把我刪掉了看起來只是一個錢但它會影響到我怎麼去那你整個計畫都延宕啦你後面的規劃都沒有辦法延續下去一定是啊所以我們現在只能在現有的那個場館裡面或者我們去幫助民間他們去收藏我們編一點預算幫他去繼續保存就是只能這樣做"},{"start":8579.428,"end":8579.448,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":8605,"end":8605.721,"text":"謝謝秀寶委員部長請回那我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8774.002,"end":8774.485,"text":"文化部"},{"start":9282.756,"end":9285.399,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會那我們現在接著請張雅玲委員謝謝昭緯 我們有請林委員部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":9303.79,"end":9311.717,"text":"詹委員你好部長好首先也是來針對有關於文化統戰這個議題想要來跟部長請教就是說總統在3月13號的國安會議召開之後他有宣布因應中國的統戰滲透我們進行17項的因應作為其中針對文化層面有要求強化"},{"start":9323.967,"end":9343.884,"text":"影譯人員在中國發展之言行應注意事項明確涉及危害國家尊嚴相關言行之查處範圍以避免中國施壓我影譯人員表態或做出危害國家尊嚴之言行我想要再更具體的確認一下這個什麼是注意事項可不可以請部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":9345.353,"end":9372.651,"text":"好所謂注意事項就是本身本來陸委會他就有一個網站只是一個比較柔性的勸導希望去中國中國輔導中國的藝人他要注意哪一些事項可是沒有針對哪一種要給予懲罰經過這一次我們發現我們得訂一些更具體的那個辦法所以我們文化部已經寫好一個比較具體的比如說提醒這個藝人到大陸去"},{"start":9373.351,"end":9402.293,"text":"以下幾件事情我們要比過去更注意這其實就像剛剛秀白委員講的希望可以把樣態更清晰的定義出來那到時候這相關的一些報告或是有一些會議的話有些資料的話也可以提供給我們辦公室我們想要了解一下那再來就是說這是我們的藝人到中國那我想要再確認一件事情去年中國的回春單這個樂壇他們來到台灣他們在自己的社群媒體上面發表了"},{"start":9403.795,"end":9427.976,"text":"從廣西到中國、台灣、明天台北見那這也是一種矮化台灣主權的一個言論嘛那針對像這樣子的一個議題呢我們過去呢陸委會雖然有針對於大陸地區電影創主創人員來台參與國產電影片製作審查或者是合拍電視電視戲劇的一個合作審查但是這都針對於演員"},{"start":9429.378,"end":9437.826,"text":"編劇或劇組人員的一些拍片規範可是對於歌手或樂團卻沒有相關的一些規定這個部分我們應該如何進行呢"},{"start":9439.373,"end":9465.079,"text":"像這個項目就是因為他北深用講這些語言我們雖然台灣有言論自由的保障但是我們會去跟經濟公司去溝通像這種他不斷的在講這些語言我想我們要去更進一步了解他是不是有背後的目的就像我前面講的他雖然言論自由可是他不可以用言論自由這個環境來刻意的用這個言論自由來打壓我們台灣的地位跟尊嚴"},{"start":9465.359,"end":9489.29,"text":"我想他們講這句話也非常明確了我想其實基本目的就是統戰這也是一種統戰的言論那我們是不是也可以跟陸委會來討論一些相關針對於歌手跟樂團的一些相關的審查原則我覺得有個審查原則出來大家更有方法可以去依循避免這樣子的情況來發生好嗎這部分是不是也可以一併來跟陸委會討論對不對是可以的嗎"},{"start":9492.632,"end":9503.906,"text":"這個沒有問題那我們大概多久可以有一些相關的討論的進度呢我們其實這個辦法已經對我們來講已經可是我覺得是中國或他們來台來台灣來台灣的喔不是我們去中國的喔大概什麼時候"},{"start":9510.643,"end":9537.794,"text":"我們時間可以暫停一下嗎 因為他們在討論我記得它原來就是有一條對於對大陸藝人來台灣的關於但是我們之前過去我們找到的都是那個拍片的為主耶那我們是補充一些包括剛才講到這種團體的演繹好啊 那這大概什麼時候可以補充完成呢這個滿快的馬上一個月以內還是一個禮拜馬上是多久就來台申請的部分我們一週之內說明"},{"start":9539.415,"end":9555.344,"text":"一週之內 一週之內 好喔 謝謝喔那再來也是一樣跟這個言論有一點相關的部長 因為我是一個非常熱愛追星的人我想請您看一下我現在在黃框裡面那四個字是什麼字好 我們給部長一點時間"},{"start":9570.126,"end":9588.618,"text":"台灣獨立這個是上個禮拜韓國有一個非常有名的女團Blackpink其中一個成員Jisoo她來到台灣做一個見面會那見面會當天主辦單位跟大家說你可以錄影你也可以壓上你自己的浮水印這是一個追星文化那你知道為什麼他們要壓這個台灣獨立嗎"},{"start":9592.11,"end":9618.73,"text":"可能不知道對不對部長平常沒有在追星好我來告訴你對我不知道好就是呢其實因為之前呢其實常常遇到中國有非常非常多的人會盜用台灣追星人的影片所以呢他們要放上這個台灣獨立就是要用他的魔法來制服他因為如果加上台灣獨立他們台灣的追星人認為啦如果加上台灣獨立這個影片就不會再被他們盜用變成自己的版權的樣子"},{"start":9620.691,"end":9645.913,"text":"可是遇到一個問題耶這個主辦公司呢他在下面在這個粉絲的IG下面留下這句話說請將在有藝人的畫面中把這四個字移除那我想問一下因為這個似乎好像是一種我們自己的一個言論審查思想審查啦"},{"start":9649.011,"end":9672.523,"text":"所以說而且這個狀況其實在去年泰白泰白就是一個也是泰國的那個團體CP來到台灣這樣子那台灣的主辦最新團應援團也有講說這裡面都不要講到任何跟台灣有影響有相關的事情所以我會認為這等於是我們自我限縮我們台灣人在台灣我發表任何言論都不行那您的看法是什麼"},{"start":9674.605,"end":9701.74,"text":"我覺得蠻荒謬的就是台灣本來就是一個主權獨立的國家而且是一個自由民主的制度我們在這邊講台灣獨立這樣的一個原理而且他自己台灣自己的影片上面喔就像我們全世界的一些很有名的藝人會到全世界演唱的時候他支持江獨 支持藏獨大家都會認為他很有勇氣在我們台灣自己本地不能講這個我真的不曉得為什麼"},{"start":9702.941,"end":9723.88,"text":"但是我希望部長可以來思考這個問題因為這個問題可能會影響到接下來因為還是這幾年其實有越來越多的韓國的明星也好來到台灣做一些表演但是如果我們自己台灣的公司都對我們自己的粉絲做這麼多的嚴格的思想審查我覺得這個可能也是未來有機會讓中國有一個漏洞可以轉所以這個部分是不是可以一併來考慮跟思考一下"},{"start":9726.318,"end":9750.437,"text":"那接下來因為延續的追星族的一個權益我想今天這個質詢完之後部長應該會認識非常多韓團這個是BTS 我不知道部長聽過BTS嗎BTS最近在J-Hope要來台灣開演唱會然後在3月的時候開放了三天購票可是一下就秒殺 那我覺得黃牛票議題非常嚴肅因為接下來GD也要來台灣"},{"start":9752.532,"end":9770.342,"text":"GD又是另外一個團可是我們看到在這些天團進場的時候我們在社群上面有這句話他們委託本次委託提供預購碼的買家全部成功進場百分之百出貨率這是不是一個黃牛的行為這個算不算黃牛還是沒關係"},{"start":9781.358,"end":9803.513,"text":"像這樣的東西在網路上我們真的不曉得要怎麼...可是它是提供預購碼買家喔它百分之百都出貨欸百分之百買到票這一個票是秒殺欸很多人搶不到可是它竟然可以說如果你還想要進場的話你都可以來注意我們的貼文喔這不是嗎這一定是啊因為你可以代購欸而且還保證你絕對入場欸這絕對是一個黃牛的行為啊"},{"start":9807.455,"end":9827.617,"text":"所以我覺得我們現在的一個對於黃警察來說他這樣子非常的挑釁因為他們根本不怕被抓為什麼我從去年開始就一直在關注這個議題就是說對於所有的追星族來說最希望的就是他能夠跟他的偶像見上一面所以我們必須確保這個機制讓每個人都能夠有公平購票的機會"},{"start":9829.719,"end":9847.956,"text":"可是我們的黃牛票檢舉的成效其實是非常低的部長可以看到加價轉售 售售檢舉8424件 成案率只有26.3%用不正方式的售售檢舉有521件 成案率只有2.3%所以總共我們收到了將近9000筆的一個檢舉資料 只有不到25%"},{"start":9850.698,"end":9872.915,"text":"就大概25%可以檢舉成案那最主要是我自己簡單來講我自己歸納我覺得是檢舉根本要不到社群後台的一個資料社群平台後台的資料而且呢也很難以提供就是這些不管是購票的人也好啦或者是這個平台方到底願意提供Log我覺得也是一個很大的問題好 那"},{"start":9876.707,"end":9880.215,"text":"去年呢其實我那時候有針對於說如果當民眾要檢舉的時候我們"},{"start":9883.644,"end":9910.813,"text":"這邊你可以看到綠色框框裡面要檢舉的時候其實民眾很難拿到那個LOG資料那當時齁當時文化部是給我回覆王次長當時是回覆說他們會跟平台方來索取只要我們有這個票券的號碼或流水記錄的話呢我們就可以跟他要就可以真正找到這個買票的人那當時我有說好那我還是希望大家可以跟民眾加強說明可是一年過後了這個"},{"start":9911.993,"end":9936.515,"text":"對於一個檢舉民眾來說我看完我還是要提供這個LOG資料啊我說看這是你們的這個網站檢舉網站檢舉的頁面上面還是沒有告訴他我們是可以來協助的只要提供部分的資訊就可以了您可以看一下這上面文字是這樣寫不管是檢舉要提供哪些資料都有寫說需要提供平台的名稱藝文表演"},{"start":9937.276,"end":9944.116,"text":"活動資訊跟操作歷程記錄所以我覺得這對民眾來說他並不知道他只要有流水號就可以檢舉了"},{"start":9946.021,"end":9966.92,"text":"可以說明一下嗎 可以回覆一下嗎這部分要如何讓民眾可以知道這個部分真的只有嘉祥宣導關於黃流從去年到今年我們已經做了很多的方式比如說我們跟地方的一些場館他們本身能夠掌管到那個演唱會申請的這個單位尤其是六都跟他們一起來"},{"start":9968.541,"end":9985.427,"text":"市長其實我想兩件事情啦我想要要求這個檢舉的平台上面是不是可以更清楚讓民眾知道他只要提供流水號他就可以去檢舉他不一定要提供到這麼完整的LOG資料因為這是去年你們告訴我的或是說你們是不是一定要多個我請市長回答好嗎"},{"start":9987.591,"end":10008.813,"text":"委員好那委員這個部分我們會在頁面上因為我們最近也正在改版會一些說明的部分會再講清楚那其實基本上在一般的加價轉售的檢舉案上確實我們會需要的會是目前上面列到的票券的流水號碼Log其實基本上一般民眾確實是不會有他是所謂的不正確沒錯是所以我就說我懂所以就是說"},{"start":10010.094,"end":10032.786,"text":"所以你就應該要做一些刪除嘛因為你這樣加上去就變成是他我看到如果是我是一個民眾我看到的時候我就會想說那我這樣我沒有辦法檢舉所以這才會造成我們前面的檢舉成案率這麼的低啊第二個問題我覺得還有我們真的可以我們今天真的有辦法平台會給你這個log的記錄嗎他們真的願意嗎因為對他們來說商業模式我賣掉就賣掉啦我更不在乎這件事情他們真的願意給你們嗎"},{"start":10037.322,"end":10055.711,"text":"這邊跟委員報告其實目前如果確實檢舉案件資料明確的時候警方或者是地方政府在跟售票平台調的時候像拓園這些他們其實會稍微配合稍微配合對對對基本上我們還是會有售票平台其實會配合提供這些Log因為Log聽起來好像有些是不會配合的嘛"},{"start":10056.551,"end":10083.31,"text":"我們其實有一直在跟他們合作好沒關係這個問題因為我時間到了我們約個時間來仔細的討論這個部分好嗎好因為我覺得如果我們今天做了一個這樣子的辦法雖然我們可以罰他我們有一些好像高額的金額可以去嚇阻他可是事實上我們真的就從這個陳安律來看我們好像就是抓不太到啦我們應該要怎麼樣子來精進讓我們真正來照顧到我們每一個追星人可以跟他的偶像用公平跟正當的方式來相見好嗎謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10086.889,"end":10093.131,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員部長請回接下來請郭鈺晴委員謝謝主席 有請部長好 有請李部長郭委員好"},{"start":10107.813,"end":10132.97,"text":"部長辛苦了我想這個文化是最重要的國家軟實力我們以英國為例就是他們從兒童節目一直到影音的作品或者是從體育賽事一直到所謂的流行音樂甚至到美術或者是藝術甚至歷史的一些展館在在的都看到英國他們發展最重要的一個軟實力其實就是國力的象徵就是我們的文化"},{"start":10133.55,"end":10154.17,"text":"但是很遺憾我們看到了我們的文化部的預算照正常來講其實文化部的預算是佔中央的總預算比例通常都不到1%其實對我們來講已經不是那麼的多了我們剛剛一直聽到文化部我們希望說文化能夠向下扎根能夠往外擴展"},{"start":10155.111,"end":10172.166,"text":"然後甚至國際的一些交流但是呢我相信大家都已經經歷過就是在預算會期的時候我們文化部的預算呢被大幅的煽動那我舉個例子來講喔比方說煽動的有這個同山的部分是有水電費、違辦費、特別費等等"},{"start":10174.768,"end":10193.66,"text":"那另外呢在媒體宣傳5943萬是全數被刪除所以剛剛其實關於亞林委員在提到說比方說黃牛我們要如何去宣導要加強宣導但這個部分我們的預算是整體被刪除喔那更不用講"},{"start":10194.42,"end":10220.197,"text":"可能有一些預算的煽動也會影響到地方文化的發展藝文產業的發展甚至文化資產的保存還有我剛剛所提的我們要往外擴展我有聽到部長有說今年其實我們要到大阪去拓展台灣的一個文化像這個部分在國際交流的部分也因為預算的煽動也可能會受到一些影響對嗎是"},{"start":10224.025,"end":10233.06,"text":"那部長有什麼樣的因應的方法嗎其實我們就會想說如果沒選費如果把我們全部刪除的話我們就想"},{"start":10234.503,"end":10257.129,"text":"對我來講我就會反而去找多一個可以做網路梗圖的人想辦法去克服但是對我們同仁來講真的蠻辛苦尤其是他那個沒宣費不能再用的時候我們活動非常多剛才提到水電其實很多單位如果不解凍的話到六七月之後就真的沒水沒電了"},{"start":10258.229,"end":10260.911,"text":"甚至像今年其實大家眾所矚目在大阪現在已經開始的這個萬國博覽會它的推廣或者是說我們剛剛講到這個文化幣等等或者是閱讀推廣等等所有的一個活動也可能會被迫中斷或者是有重大的影響"},{"start":10275.8,"end":10292.735,"text":"我想這個一直過去到現在我們看到國民黨的委員把影視文化業者當成是要飯的那已經把所有的台灣影視文化人都激怒了那不是只有影視文化的部分甚至民間藝術團體也紛紛針對文化的預算被刪減"},{"start":10298.22,"end":10321.69,"text":"都已經站出來包含動漫工會包含視覺藝術界還有出版業者還有書店等等我想呢不曉得他們有沒有聽到這樣的聲音喔那我想針對藝文產業其實它是一個高度依賴中央的政府補助喔那也因為我們的預算被煽動也有可能會沒辦法"},{"start":10323.531,"end":10345.826,"text":"好好的來讓藝文工作者他們的生計有所維持但是我今天剛剛有突然聽到了一絲的希望看到了一絲的曙光因為我們知道現在所有立法院的遊戲規則已經開始有點被更改了我不知道原來解凍可以這麼的快速也許從現在我們可以快速通關我們來聽一下好不好大文化部書面報告送進來這些錢"},{"start":10353.453,"end":10354.524,"text":"立刻就可以使用"},{"start":10357.475,"end":10377.02,"text":"我好開心耶 是真的嗎因為他是我們教育文化的另外一位召委那我想如果有他這句話那我們可以往這個方向前進那我相信文化部解凍這個預算上的解凍或者是我們在才化法當中的這些可能會被影響的一些地方文化的產業可能就有那麼一絲被救贖的曙光"},{"start":10384.246,"end":10400.977,"text":"好 接下來我想要問一下就是其實剛剛也有很多我們的委員也在提到這個陸配的雅雅的案子其實是個前天大家軒然大波但是在更之前呢其實有台灣的演藝人員他在自己的這個平台上面"},{"start":10401.817,"end":10405.278,"text":"發表了矮化台灣主權相關的關於台灣省中國台灣省這樣子的一個不當的言論成為威權統治的一個宣傳的工具我想身為藝人 身為公眾人物其實我們都有一些道德的責任在我們也會有一些所謂的社會的影響力"},{"start":10424.123,"end":10431.305,"text":"當他們利用自己的平台附中去做演藝表演的同時我們這個時候文化部應該要怎麼樣的嚴加的管理或者是輔導那麼當然我們有一個台灣藝人附中發展注意事項那目前這個執行的方法我們可能還不是非常的清楚到底應該要如何的來執行那對於台灣藝人附中去表演"},{"start":10450.211,"end":10466.449,"text":"但如何不會踩到所謂的政治的紅線這個部分是不是我想要再聽一下部長您怎麼說好其實我們原來的一些規定都不會針對某一個人去做出任何處分"},{"start":10467.31,"end":10481.807,"text":"但是我現在發現這個東西如果是一個文化滲透或者它是一個有計畫的在做的話作為文化部我們就要進一步去做出一些更具體的一些規範譬如說你去了中國大陸"},{"start":10483.068,"end":10503.005,"text":"你的商业行为背后有没有条件是要做一些污蔑台湾的言论才会产生这个商业行为或者是你背后有交易我们要对这个事情要做行政了解包括经纪公司我们要了解如果一旦知道他有这些行为或者他根本就有中国的"},{"start":10503.986,"end":10527.075,"text":"那個戶籍的話我們可以針對我們台灣我們至少可以保護我們台灣的一些譬如說他來申請輔導或者我們可以前面先知道他有沒有做這些事情或者事後知道我可以追回我的輔導金追回我的補助就我們要做一些比較更具體的一些行為但是這一切的一切都不表示我們不尊重這個言論自由"},{"start":10528.996,"end":10551.212,"text":"好 不論如何我們希望這個管理辦法或者是我們再更具體的一些這個管理的一個規範要出來啦那我們才能夠去執行這就有點像是兩岸人民關係條例當中我們一直強調就是公職人員其實你要附中你要報告是一樣的意思身為藝人一樣也有這樣子的一個重要的影響力我們不要淪為被統戰的一個工具"},{"start":10552.232,"end":10577.46,"text":"好 那因為今天時間有限接著下一題我想要問一下下的就是關於我們的台灣Plus我想台灣Plus經過了半年的這樣子的一個時間從才半年就已經有五次非常重大的一個疏失不管是對於文化的敏感度不足或者是對於所謂的涉及語言上的標示的錯誤或者是政治的立場的偏頗"},{"start":10578.84,"end":10603.784,"text":"台灣Plus的宗旨應該是要讓全世界看到台灣但是問題是在專業度不夠嚴謹的一個狀況之下其實他們已經出現了好幾次的缺失台灣Plus的問題什麼時候可以真正的由內部的控管來管理這些所謂他們在做新聞報導的時候的橫平性這個也是我"},{"start":10604.464,"end":10633.17,"text":"辦公室一直不斷的在追的這一個題目這個部分部長怎麼看其實台灣Plus它的從產生到現在的確在組織上的管理跟那個結構其實是蠻有問題的所以最近台灣Plus本身公共電視已經成立一個調查一個很中立的調查團針對整個過去到現在它的組織跟人力因為我了解幕前幕後"},{"start":10633.55,"end":10647.589,"text":"尤其是在幕後的後製其實台灣Plus要做橫頻的報導是非常非常的快速是可以投入在幕後也就是說我的片子就算已經上架出去但是我事後可以來做"},{"start":10648.833,"end":10670.501,"text":"嚴重嚴格的一個補救的一個方式這個是可以快速再上架再讓他重新上架但目前為止其實光是這幾次的整個所有的爭議當中尤其是在三月份這兩次這樣子的一個個案我到目前為止還沒有看到補救的方法在哪裡是不是可以請Talant Plus來跟我說一下"},{"start":10673.577,"end":10700.197,"text":"因為我們最近已經接受這個調查的建議以後我們開始做比較強化的改變最主要原因是因為本國籍同仁在編輯的過程當中要讓他更介入更投入在整個編裁流程的管控那過往我們當然是尊重外籍同仁對英語報導內容製作上的一些專業跟經驗尊重不代表沒有管制喔是 但我想本國籍同仁的管制還有新聞部主管的這個審核機制"},{"start":10701.738,"end":10718.52,"text":"已經建立更好的方法我們在這個月已經起到我想橫頻的去報導不要有偏頗的政治的立場去報導這些所謂的爭議的報導的影片的同時其實這個部分內部你們真的要嚴加的好好的來做管理好嗎好"},{"start":10720.885,"end":10731.714,"text":"好 以上 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝郭玉琴委員 部長請回我們接下來請吳佩奕委員好 謝謝主席 我請文化部李遠部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":10747.93,"end":10752.092,"text":"好部長好 部長上一次在這裡質詢的時候我們很高興的在討論文化部終於今年度編出了史上最高的文化預算那因為這是賴清德總統的政見也是我競選立委的政見所以當時我們是非常的肯定但是我想今天經過"},{"start":10770.376,"end":10788.709,"text":"去年底在野黨對於我們國家總體預算的刪除刪減我們今天在這裡與其說是聽文化部的業務報告更不如說是在聽我們文化部經過在野黨刪除預算之後的宅損報告評估那我們"},{"start":10789.87,"end":10801.037,"text":"原本今年度加上前瞻首次突破了文化預算300億這感謝文化部所有同仁的努力但是經過了刪減之後目前文化部預算刪減11億 凍結34億"},{"start":10805.279,"end":10833.996,"text":"部長在爭取預算的過程當中曾經一度哽咽當時你對媒體說你彷彿看到台灣文化人的努力像是一顆珍貴的蛋在你的眼前被捏碎了那其實部長您也不是第一次擔任政府機關的文化首長過去你擔任過在柯文哲台北市長任內您擔任過文記會的董事兩次那過去你在台北市議會您的預算有沒有遇過這麼大幅度的刪除"},{"start":10838.41,"end":10860.14,"text":"你剛剛講到我過去在公務機關我沒有做過這是我第一次在公務機關工作文進會的董事就是以過去你在市議會的經驗你們在報告預算的時候有沒有被刪除過這麼大幅度的預算我沒有過任何預算經驗我過去的所有工作都是在電視台那我在文進會是辦一個學校也沒有預算"},{"start":10860.8,"end":10876.249,"text":"所以第一次 我第一次學習你第一次遇到 對那過去我在台北市議會我們也審過文化局包括文基會的預算即便當時我的角色我是在野黨的民意代表那我們也不曾對執政黨的文化預算進行過這麼大幅度的刪除"},{"start":10881.073,"end":10889.632,"text":"刪減因為我們知道這個文化預算在使用的或者是它在造福的是文化工作者而文化工作者的成品他們的創作品"},{"start":10891.849,"end":10918.342,"text":"所造福的是我們全體國人甚至是世界的人類這是人類共同的藝術成就大家共享的文化資源所以我們都向來是非常尊重也希望政府可以努力的來扶持那在這次的刪除預算當中我看到幾個我覺得比較不合理的地方第一個有一些項目它是遭到全數刪除也就是把你整個業務停擺"},{"start":10920.183,"end":10938.446,"text":"不是只是給你一點建議清理檢討是把你全數刪除例如我們聯合典藏中心刪除的金額年度高達是一億元那這個典藏中心原先要做庫房跟修復空間提供包括史博館台史博文學館國影中心跟美術基金會來使用"},{"start":10939.927,"end":10959.534,"text":"那國營中心我非常重視因為去年度我們還去考察過當時國營中心就有提出來我們知道說有非常多我們的這一些過去的電影膠片海報新聞片數位修復片等等重要的影音資料庫我們都還有很多的藏品等待修復那當然是需要空間那現在"},{"start":10961.815,"end":10986.194,"text":"前兩天我們也看到陳承波的後代他說捐出了兩千多件的作品我們非常感謝那他是很信任他說多年來他們現在終於是等於要交手給政府了由政府來協助他們做後續的工作那典藏都是在修復裡面非常重要的一個條件那我們現在聯合典藏中心今年度的預算全數刪除會對我們造成什麼影響"},{"start":10989.997,"end":11016.104,"text":"其實講到這裡我覺得台灣的文化快速的發展的情況下我們本身政府的腳步有點跟不上譬如說他一捐就捐兩千件東西我們典藏根本來不及跟所以其實我心裡很焦急是我們做的每一個編列的預算都是在追趕前面不夠的狀態那民間這麼熱心的捐這麼多東西我們作為一個政府機構"},{"start":11017.364,"end":11043.032,"text":"你輕易的把它刪掉你一點都不知道這個錢是要幹什麼的這才是真的重點就是這個錢一點都不多我們已經有點來不及了所以當在野黨刪的時候我最痛心的是你知不知道這個錢要幹什麼我們台灣的文化過去都已經忽略很久了過去被忽略這麼久現在民間這麼多人想幫忙政府把他家裡的最珍貴的話"},{"start":11044.272,"end":11065.161,"text":"捐出來兩千多件他每一件都可以賣很多錢的你完全忽略了民間這些藝術家藝術家的後代對台灣文化多麼珍惜那我們政府騙個一億只為了一個典藏中心的開始你全部刪掉你再刪那一刻我不小心你想什麼"},{"start":11066.365,"end":11091.742,"text":"就是有一群人這麼努力的想要建立這個文化台灣的主體文化有一些人看都不看一眼其實我最難過的不是錢的問題是態度的問題這部分也希望文化部可以再多加強跟各政黨委員的溝通因為陳如剛部長所說其實去年度的預算在我們文化委員會審查的時候原先只刪了兩千萬"},{"start":11092.623,"end":11119.542,"text":"那到了第二輪由政黨之名提出的時候起初是要刪除八十億那是因為文化人站出來國人表達抗議所以最後他們才撤案最後還好災情控制到只刪了十一億但是我要講的是所以教育委員會當時國民黨的委員在野黨的委員也不是支持要刪八十億當時我們公司是刪兩千萬經過文化部的說明但是到二輪到政黨提案之後突然金額變那麼大"},{"start":11121.26,"end":11140.553,"text":"那我很遺憾當時教文委員會在野黨委員沒有站出來捍衛他們在委員會所做下的決定所以不得不說他們也是目前我們看到災情的共犯但是我們可以再努力的去溝通因為我想只要是在這個委員會裡面大家基於專業來審查都是支持文化預算的例如"},{"start":11141.293,"end":11145.558,"text":"還包含了我們這一次的這個表演藝術最後也被刪了兩千萬數字金額可能有人說乍看不大但我認為影響很大因為它這是延續性計畫這不是新增的本來每一年我們就是在補助我們台灣這些優秀的團體例如我們品牌團隊這個等於是台灣的旗艦藝文團體"},{"start":11160.515,"end":11164.117,"text":"我們希望他們在國際上可以發光發亮原先我們是希望今年要可以補助更多團隊所以把預算提高沒有想到又被刪減所以恐怕過去補助了雲門 補助明華園補助朱忠敬 打擊樂團 優人神鼓等等現在恐怕沒有辦法如我們原先希望的去扶植更多的藝文團體那另外我看到視覺藝術的黑潮"},{"start":11183.567,"end":11209.604,"text":"也被刪了兩千萬這個原先是補助我們台灣的藝術家例如賴淳淳藝術文教基金會本來今年去大阪市博要策展然後例如我們也補助台灣跟澳洲的女性藝術交流計畫甚至有好地下藝術團就是花蓮在地的當代攝影家預計要去歐洲做交流這些都是我們非常支持的原先我們都希望可以補助更多的團體但是因為預算遭到了刪減恐怕沒有辦法再增加那另外"},{"start":11213.827,"end":11240.248,"text":"除了三減以外才化法我認為我也是相當的遊行我們剛講到的要補助藝文團體原先我們有一個計畫是要補助地方的這個優良的傑出藝文團體那跟地方政府來分別分攤補助金額嘛那目前這樣看來我們這個會不會受到影響在未來才化法我們文化部預算可能會減少百分之三十的情況之下"},{"start":11241.189,"end":11262.468,"text":"其實我們預算一直往下排擠地方團隊是第一個受害者地方團隊的錢每個團隊的補助都很少我們經過這樣排擠之後我們現在根本不能考慮地方團隊了那財務法法一下去我們不但不能補助地方團隊我們所有的文資所有的文化平權原來我們可以"},{"start":11263.109,"end":11279.337,"text":"按照資源的多少去支援不同的縣市我在這裡一再強調我們完全不會考慮政治 政黨對於文化的分配我們正要去金門正要去表演我們不會去因為他的政治而"},{"start":11280.057,"end":11295.437,"text":"而刪減任何的補助所以這才是我最動心的就是你現在一刪之後我現在覺得我文化部本來可以稍微完成文化平權或者文化資產的經過一個災難我們立刻去補助它這些錢都是非常急迫的"},{"start":11296.175,"end":11316.662,"text":"好 部長 最後我要講剛剛講到財化法可能對文資的保存會造成衝擊這一點我真的相當憂心因為目前我們文化部我們跟行政院爭取嘛六年一共160億的預算來補助地方的文資保存一年大概二十幾億那經過財化法劃分這樣把錢撥下去之後財化法最大問題是沒有討論市權"},{"start":11318.943,"end":11342.066,"text":"所以你這個錢撥給地方政府第一個他會不會撥到文化局我們都不確定那文化局會不會再去撥到要指定是就做文化資產的修復可能都不一定像文化部你們這個錢如果被強迫30%就是你文資修復的部分如果未來必須要撥給地方政府你們可不可以要求地方政府這個預算給你你就是必須要補助文資修復你們可不可以這樣要求"},{"start":11342.846,"end":11362.803,"text":"當然不行啊 我們沒有權利啊我們沒有辦法這樣要求試選這就是我最擔心的因為我在我的選區台北市中正萬華區我非常多的文資像我們萬華西門的將軍廟也是文化部來幫我們補助文資修復如果未來才化法錢撥給地方政府本來應該要去補助文資修復的因為沒有討論試權 只討論錢"},{"start":11365.663,"end":11370.156,"text":"那未來我們地方的這些文資修復如果預算不足地方政府又沒有編列的時候我們該何去何從呢"},{"start":11373.55,"end":11380.635,"text":"所以部長剛雖然您說你們沒有這樣的權利但我還是要拜託你們因為你們畢竟是全國文化最高的主管機關要拜託你們跟地方政府來好好討論一旦錢撥下去了文資修復文化部原先每年20億的預算要拜託地方政府千萬還是要去執行到來保存我們台灣的文化資產因為是我們全體國人所珍貴共同的文物好不好"},{"start":11404.411,"end":11419.681,"text":"好因為我們最近要推出一個全台灣一個100大文化基地的目的就是想強化中央跟地方上共同去推一些文化基地的是這個目的我還希望去找到別的部會"},{"start":11421.002,"end":11443.734,"text":"幫我們一起來支援 藝術在地方其實我們不要分中央跟地方中央本身的所有錢都用在地方上這點是不用分的那我覺得大家一直沒有搞懂好像文化部的錢是用在中央中央是不存在的他的錢都是用在每一個縣市每一個點 每一個宮廟每一個古蹟這樣子好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":11450.25,"end":11471.508,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝吳佩奕委員 部長請回我們接下來請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝召委 有請部長好 有請部長"},{"start":11476.584,"end":11495.912,"text":"柏惟你好部長好部長想跟你探討一下這個文化傳承的一個布袋戲想跟你請問一下這幾個人物那我們一起來瞭解一下第一個部長您知道這是誰嗎這實驗文啊欸 亞修車蛤"},{"start":11497.669,"end":11526.135,"text":"葉小叉 亞修車我是故意這樣講 假使因為我那裡笑的沒有沒有因為我們年齡差太多啦沒有沒有沒有我們沒有不會去說探討啦不會去做這樣子的一個我們沒有任何去調侃的意思啦一起探討 一起加油第二個第二個我剛剛聽台底下的人好像蠻多共鳴是你們都知道嗎那第二個部長"},{"start":11529.924,"end":11538.293,"text":"不是不是不是硬錫鈴硬錫鈴我們碧琪琳喔硬獅人 第三個來來來盡量回答看看 沒關係沒關係太陽王喔"},{"start":11554.143,"end":11567.451,"text":"有太陽王這個角色嗎我先跟你講啦這個拿來考我我也不知道我們不要說自己也要坦承啦但是這個是野兔林第四個下面有人念出來喔"},{"start":11583.459,"end":11600.335,"text":"報告部長 灰熊鹿 非常女第五個 這個已經是非常非常知名的了我本來知道 我看到你我很緊張又忘記了"},{"start":11601.587,"end":11629.323,"text":"你不覺得今天我氣氛盡可能的就是大家很平和嗎我好緊張耶授還金授還金 授還金好來 第六個 第六個其實真的蠻簡單的常見人啊 最怕人再來 第七個你講過的還要冷氣 還要冷氣啦那第八個他算是也蠻常出現的"},{"start":11630.99,"end":11657.024,"text":"三個字阿閃有人打帕斯嗎可以打帕斯沒關係阿閃閃啦不是阿閃閃金雞仙那部長這樣子喔其實八個布袋戲的人物啊無形的文化資產那當然我坦白講連我要回答的時候有時候都非常的吃緊包括台底下大家一起聽到那我要講的是說今天答對"},{"start":11658.244,"end":11683.142,"text":"沒有得分 答錯也不應該有處罰但是我們要講的是背後的一個含義我們希望在面臨現階段布袋戲的一個成長一直在緊縮30歲以下的年輕人搞不好還沒看過布袋戲但是我覺得布袋戲在台灣來說是一個非常重要的在整個粉絲跟客群一直在減少藝術傳承也都出現了斷層"},{"start":11684.463,"end":11709.454,"text":"那以及傳統記憶面臨消失的風險我們應該來共同的來努力但是我們要看到在台灣布袋戲竟然竟然竟然在日本是成長的台灣與日本在合作的這個東離劍遊記吸引了大批日本人關注布袋戲部長日本反而比台灣更關注布袋戲"},{"start":11710.194,"end":11715.973,"text":"那台灣作為這個布袋戲最重要的一個文化標誌我們該怎麼辦您覺得呢"},{"start":11716.96,"end":11742.01,"text":"我覺得我們回到本土文化裡面像歌仔戲跟布袋戲是絕對絕對第一重要所以我們在文化部其實我們有支持在雲林蓋了一個布袋部的傳習中心然後我們自己很多計畫是包括補助很多團體包括兒童團體裡面的繼續延續布袋戲的表演譬如說雲林有個"},{"start":11743.05,"end":11767.106,"text":"藝文教育扎根計畫我們就大概補助了3840萬所以像這個東西我以為你講的非常重要因為我剛才跟你講這些人的名字的時候其實我童年我在萬華長大我每天上學就看到布偶的製作布偶怎麼製作怎麼畫臉怎麼畫臉怎麼做衣服他絕對是一個我們全力要推廣的"},{"start":11767.406,"end":11795.257,"text":"也是你成長過程的一個經歷對不對所以可以認同一起來幫布袋戲再繼續的扎根推廣那當然我沒有說你沒有補助我們都知道文化部在這個部分的不管是無形的文化資產以及我們傳統的記憶是有在努力的可是我要講的是說部長在你成長的時代一群學生興起創作民歌改變了國語這一個樂壇的一個制式化"},{"start":11796.197,"end":11822.445,"text":"現在民歌傳唱50年了你自己有沒有自己很熟悉的民歌我寫過民歌我寫的最有名的一個民歌叫做跨父追日是李建復唱的跨父追日然後我寫過很多民歌跟陳陽合作所以我是一個我沒聽過因為我可能對我來說可能是橄欖樹啊所以我們因為年齡差太多所以你剛剛問我對民歌熟不熟其實我就是民歌創作者"},{"start":11823.065,"end":11847.187,"text":"謝謝你,好險你沒有考我民歌,不然我應該會像你那樣打不開出來但是我要講的是說民歌傳上五十年,政府在補助流行音樂的時候或許也都一直在努力的在民歌的推廣,那也都有補助民歌但是聽眾如果老了,我們是不是就應該要放棄,這個其實讓民眾去有一個很大的一個反思那文化部沒有放棄"},{"start":11848.548,"end":11864.999,"text":"應該一起繼續努力但是我們要講的是不只是給予補助如何在教育的部分不要失去這個寶貴的偶戲一個文化布袋戲的一個扎根教育以及從國小 國中 高中要怎麼來做不只是文化的保存剛剛你說有這個管項"},{"start":11866.64,"end":11879.504,"text":"那我們在這個文化的教育要怎麼樣來加強我想強調的是教育體系對布袋戲的一個傳承重要性而不是把布袋戲當作是短期的或者是活動式的或者是單純觀賞的我覺得這個都不夠長久如何創造一個在現在21世紀新的文化"},{"start":11885.245,"end":11909.895,"text":"但是是傳統的技藝我覺得在這一次日本跟台灣合作的東離建郵寄它去達到了這樣的效果所以讓日本的這個年輕人開始重視那我們是不是一起能夠來開始規劃來這個部分文化部加一點力呢我非常贊成因為我們總是要選擇幾個屬於我們台灣自己特有的文化來其實某部分來說我覺得你也算是教育者"},{"start":11911.622,"end":11940.089,"text":"我師範大學畢業我們曾經在坐這個指風車保麗回家這個故事也是你寫的啊我寫過蠻多童話故事這部也是在教育我們的孩子對那如何將這個傳統記憶現在我要提到的能夠也變成一個教育變成是一個文化的教育這部分我希望教育部不只是砸錢那能不能在體制上或者是在具體的政策上讓傳統記憶能夠被看到這個我們一起加油"},{"start":11941.216,"end":11966.769,"text":"可以嗎可以啊好另外我要跟部長再探討的是這個央廣涉嫌這個詐領我想在前立委這個前因後果其實您大概都知道了前立委李德維曾質詢這個央廣詐領的一個爭議那時任的文化部長李永德呢也表示不滿意央廣現在的行政調查因此外聘會計事務所做查核並承諾"},{"start":11967.95,"end":11987.413,"text":"最終交給這個報告給立法院然而現在這些報告被列為了機密文件最終會送到立法院我想 部長我想請問你這個文化部對於央廣調查的報告列為機密的決策是否知情文化部身為督導的單位有沒有去了解所有的狀況"},{"start":11992.318,"end":12019.404,"text":"因為這件事情真的隔滿久了我知道之後我是開始了解整個過程那在文化部的立場是很快的就要求第三方去調查調查出來發現有問題之後直接送檢調所以這個東西還在檢調單位在查然後當時的文化部2021年開始有要求央管改進內通制度還有會計查核制度有建立一個比較完善的透明的檢查方法"},{"start":12020.524,"end":12038.432,"text":"2021到現在我想改善蠻多的改善蠻多的那這一份報告我剛剛說的齁您作為文化部長督導單位齁你看起來有去了解了但是我們都知道這個案件被列為機密案件這個合理嗎你是否會督促央廣去解除這個機密的等級並依法"},{"start":12038.712,"end":12055.333,"text":"提供報告送交立法院供國人供所有立法委員來了解這份報告的調查是國家補助資金的流向我先再講這個是內部有無福報跟貪污的情勢並不是國防外交國安事項"},{"start":12056.474,"end":12083.845,"text":"如果今天是國防外交國安事項我可以尊重我覺得你去使用機密資料處理辦法來規避現階段根本不屬於國安事項的話我覺得部長您的態度是要不要公布他已經公布了就是有關您剛才講的比較那個國安的東西我想他已經解除了他已經正式對外全部公布全部嗎前幾天的新聞前幾天的新聞還有報出來喔"},{"start":12085.961,"end":12108.293,"text":"這個我是不是請董事長跟你解釋因為我們董事長的現場好跟委員報告這個資料呢調查報告在去各自去識別化之後向所有關心的委員都公布了那前幾天新聞你有看到嗎看到了那您覺得呢我們覺得非常的遺憾針對過去曾經有"},{"start":12111.323,"end":12139.682,"text":"不妥的情況我們 呃 實在是 你大聲一點好嗎 對不起好的 我們 我個人對過去曾經有過的不妥的行為非常的遺憾但是也必須向委員報告在這幾年當中已經完全改善而且現在文化部針對這個案子還在管控當中我們是每年用放大鏡在做檢視是不是改善那目前為止沒有新的情況"},{"start":12140.382,"end":12161.632,"text":"所以我相信英廣現在是一個很認真負責的在對待這件事情董事長我無意刁難喔但是這些資料都是人民的辛苦納稅錢那有涉嫌這樣子的一個狀況國人都很關心我們都說錢很重要剛剛每個委員都在關注不管所提到的相關預算問題我想預算不外乎要監督"},{"start":12162.412,"end":12182.301,"text":"那現在有這樣子的涉嫌有可能炸零甚至福報的一個狀況你們內部也有調查過的確是有這樣子的遺憾所以你說很遺憾嘛對不對所以在面臨這樣子的高度檢視跟監督的時候是有其必要性的對吧是好謝謝那我想所有的資料應該都要坦誠報告啦那最後我想請問一下這個部長"},{"start":12183.834,"end":12208.473,"text":"部長對於文化部我們上次在審預算的時候這個國漫館還記得嗎國漫館我們在審理這樣子的總共五千萬的一個預算的時候最後凍結是五百萬那當時我們所提到不外乎幾個事項我所關注的第一國漫館到底現在所面臨到的就是無障礙措施以及跟台灣漫畫家的合作以及文創"},{"start":12209.614,"end":12236.668,"text":"能夠進駐更多的一些廠商甚至是比照更多年輕時下大家對於國漫或者是日本韓國的漫畫相關的銷售模式我說的是銷售模式那還有最重要的是休憩空間的改善當時也獲得許多不是我們同黨同志也都一起來戰俠因為大家覺得所謂的無障礙非常重要"},{"start":12237.228,"end":12249.776,"text":"那現在已經有凍結預算了那目前國慢館有沒有準備要來送審凍結解凍那目前無障礙的改善以及我們所當時建議的進度如何"},{"start":12250.919,"end":12274.391,"text":"我最近去看的感覺是它完全已經改善這個無障礙然後最近我覺得國漫館做的活動跟過去比起來是非常多包括日本的藝人古路歸世他帶著幾個藝人還來參觀國漫館想知道台灣的國家怎麼去建立一個漫畫中心我們當初很快的蓋好這個之後"},{"start":12275.311,"end":12301.875,"text":"內部的調整您剛剛講的所有的問題都是對的就是我們要怎麼樣去增加展覽空間我們怎麼去保存文物我們怎麼去推廣我們的漫畫這個我們一直在加緊腳步在做上次還有講休憩包括很多的一些親子家庭來到休憩空間的不足還有我們說到的是有所謂的扭蛋的方式去呈現的銷售模式或者是文創的入住其實在當下我們都有提到"},{"start":12302.415,"end":12317.523,"text":"那我們希望的是都希望國慢能夠更好以及國慢館的一個設施運作的時候能夠能有所提升那我要講的是說如果剛剛你所說的你們都準備好了也都有改善了我覺得這個部分的解凍案部長"},{"start":12318.183,"end":12333.789,"text":"您有預計什麼時候可以面臨這樣子的一個解凍案可以趕快送神嗎當然如果你有意願你也準備好了我們自己也有趙偉啊我們也可以跟趙偉講期望他排案啊來幫忙協助啊那這個部分你已經準備好了嗎我問問看你準備了嗎可以啊"},{"start":12336.315,"end":12356.474,"text":"其實剛才回到解凍案的問題我們個別個別都在朝著要解凍的那個東西在寫那我剛才有解釋過解凍的理由還有我們要寫的過程為什麼我們有點猶豫因為我們前面在審預算的過程中我的經驗很怕再被羞辱一次"},{"start":12358.595,"end":12384.096,"text":"我想用羞辱這個言詞非常的嚴厲但沒關係我們都是希望這個國家好我們都希望國慢管能夠更好相信你自己也相信我們在對於這個監督的過程當中都是希望朝向更好的一個方向我想在基本上我剛剛所講的就是很簡單最後趙偉要站起來了對於無障礙空間的一個改善對於休憩空間的一個改善對於台灣的漫畫家"},{"start":12386.218,"end":12410.012,"text":"的合作能夠有更多元甚至是二手漫畫的交流以及銷售方式的文創能夠更加的入住這個部分是當然見仁見智但是如果有朝向這個方向我們都希望能夠朝這個方向來努力的時候就是樂觀其成我們會來協助但是我覺得不需要去擔憂嘛那這個部分一起來努力可以嗎"},{"start":12410.732,"end":12431.039,"text":"我覺得羅委員對我們的漫畫博物館這麼關心我非常高興因為我自己對於漫畫也充滿了覺得我們在最近的這幾年看到我們的台漫起來我心裡也非常急切我希望羅委員協助我們爭取預算還有一切一切的我們一起來做好嗎"},{"start":12431.519,"end":12446.907,"text":"最後十秒 我們一定會協助 只要您的政策方向是對的我想這個過程中很激烈 有火花但是結果是希望朝向正面的我們都是為這個國家努力 為文化努力 為國慢管努力一起加油 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員 部長請回好 我們接下來請范雲委員"},{"start":12459.981,"end":12460.361,"text":"范委員你好"},{"start":12483.922,"end":12487.425,"text":"部長您好我想您到現在應該知道就是林宅血案的遺址他們的申請台北市的依照文資法的史跡被駁回那我有開記者會因為就是我認為他們的理由跟審查的意見前後矛盾一方面說這個事情就是調查好像沒有明確二方面又"},{"start":12509.065,"end":12530.335,"text":"推給說文化部就是因為文資法不是文資法不義遺址專法還沒有通過事實上如果根據促展會的調查報告我這邊列出來的都是促展會調查報告血案遺址已經非常清楚見證國家介入司法勤制單位就是國安局隱匿關鍵的電話對專案小組隱瞞這個都是我們"},{"start":12535.697,"end":12538.979,"text":"促轉會的報告所以情治國安介入司法侵害人權是明確的事實那這個部分那所以呢我想那個賴總統他的高度那我非常的就是就是"},{"start":12552.129,"end":12573.157,"text":"覺得非常的好他在二二八我們是二二八前夕的記者會二二八之前當天前夕那是當天的發言吧他就承諾說請文化部啟動審議程序將一光教會列為具有轉型正義意義的場所加以保存維護那這是那天賴總統的發言這個臉書上都有"},{"start":12577.859,"end":12598.699,"text":"那根據促轉會的任務總結報告文化部應該要調查建立不義遺址主管機關應成立審議會等等然後才有保存因為促轉會移交給文化部的工作就是保存不義遺址嘛那部長應該可以肯定保存不義遺址的話當然要繼續調查那所以"},{"start":12599.62,"end":12613.124,"text":"我知道那天總質詢的時候我們張雅玲委員就是也很關心這題我們一起開記者會的那天部長您的回應是人權管已經在擬定由民間主動申請暫時替代不移植給予轉型正義異議場域名稱的方案"},{"start":12619.326,"end":12622.908,"text":"我是覺得這是一個很好的開始但是我回來就是查看總統的說法我覺得您這個很好的開始可是有點不符合總統的承諾因為總統的意思是我們讀起來是文化部主動要去做"},{"start":12636.673,"end":12654.361,"text":"文化部要啟動審議的程序那您那邊就會變成說人權會去訂出辦法讓民間自己來提那我是覺得民間已經受挫了一光教會好不容易整合他們的意見主動對台北市文化局"},{"start":12654.741,"end":12671.575,"text":"那在這個時候我覺得依照賴總統的公開的發言那文化部應該要主動那不知道那個部長有讀過那個促轉會的總結的報告關於不義遺址那一張嗎就是文化部被交接的工作有沒有"},{"start":12671.715,"end":12674.817,"text":"那裡面就有講到非常的清楚為什麼一開始的時候沒有藝光教會是因為當時是以公有的財產為主那如果根據那個報告書裡面的"},{"start":12686.803,"end":12709.838,"text":"就是所謂的大量的不幸發生的時候他說這個大量也有包含就是對社會影響甚具的案件就是說基本上就是一光教會以我們對促轉會的報告來講的話完全符合這個意義它對整個社會對我們的民主化的過程有關鍵的影響因為是社會矚目的案件甚至國際矚目"},{"start":12710.839,"end":12722.537,"text":"那既然促轉會的報告都有這個部分了那部長是不是可以承諾就是主動促成這個事不要再等到萬一一光教會沒有來申請呢是不是能夠更積極主動一點"},{"start":12723.993,"end":12746.492,"text":"我們去主動找過一關教會我們剛才講到說要民間來申請是因為當年的不育已死有一個規定就是公有的場所我們可以去設定那私人的我們不能強迫私人的要他來申請要同意我們才能設所以我們用同樣的這個法條我們沒辦法強迫他設所以"},{"start":12747.994,"end":12764.814,"text":"當總統講完那個之後我們人權館就主動去建了這個一貫教會是不是請他來我們人權館的館長跟您報告是否簡短就好因為我待會還有另外一題所以你們已經主動接觸一貫教會了那這個審議的程序是不是能夠專案處理盡快我們可以主動來協助跟輔導"},{"start":12767.697,"end":12791.499,"text":"那大概多久多久的時間內會有結果呢審議的結果會出來以我們現在跟他溝通的過程事實上他們對於這樣的一個做法還沒有很冷很就如何保存如何就是讓這個空間更能彰顯這個轉型的正義當然據說系我是說那可不可以在既然你們已經接觸了一個月內給我一個報告好嗎"},{"start":12794.582,"end":12801.089,"text":"希望能夠盡速確定他的不以已止的地位或者是具轉型正義意義的地位部長 剛剛是問他一個月內給我報告這件事情三個月內應該可以確定吧"},{"start":12811.031,"end":12834.336,"text":"確定說 確定掛牌就是藝光教會是否具有轉型正義意義的一個官方的身份地位當初其實他想要爭取的是跟政府爭取不義遺址那政府把它退回來之後而是台北市文化局 不是政府 台北市文化局部分的政府那我們的確沒有通過這個不義遺址條例嘛對 但是"},{"start":12834.696,"end":12839.021,"text":"你們還是可以繼續審定啊對不對審定是一件正在進行的但是掛上不義遺址這件事情如果這個條例沒有過的話我們就只好想一個總統講的那個就是轉型正義的"},{"start":12850.393,"end":12872.125,"text":"具有轉型正義這個產育這個名稱來取代可是他還不是能夠取代不義一致這個方面我們跟他溝通部長我先打岔一下其實降讀那個東西並沒有排除專法沒過就不能夠有這個名稱那當然這個部分你們的法務可以去了解一下好不好那就先這樣那三個月內這件事可以定案吧"},{"start":12872.854,"end":12886.026,"text":"三個月內給你一個報告 之前三個月內以前給你一個報告那再來就是那當然我想希望文化部盡快實現總統的承諾那第二個部分我想先請問那個文資局文資局 文資司"},{"start":12893.197,"end":12913.868,"text":"這個部分 你們應該知道我要問什麼事吧我現在覺得不能接受的事情是去年3月我們就揭露這件事情比李姓郎師 戲曲學禮上15年來是性侵多名學生 這個嚴重度您知道吧是性侵"},{"start":12915.356,"end":12930.93,"text":"然後這是調查確立的2024年6月戲曲學院就把他解聘終生不能再聘為教師可是呢至今他仍在客家戲曲界活躍多次參與漢陽北館劇團的演出那這個漢陽北館劇團長年受到文化資產局的補助"},{"start":12937.837,"end":12962.096,"text":"那今年二月戲曲學院的學生受紅杏校友邀請參加客家電視台節目演出排練當天才知道是理師帶領那這部分我想先講文資局我在開記者會前給你們空間跟機會因為我們是並沒有真的要找你麻煩可是記者會前文化部文資局給我的是說"},{"start":12963.803,"end":12968.828,"text":"沒有 漢陽北管劇團跟你們講他沒有參與任何的相關活動記者會後 你們今天據說之前給我的資料改口了說他沒有參與你們補助的活動所以是漢陽北管劇團說謊 第一次說謊還是你們 你知道你們在包庇他們 可不可以講一下"},{"start":12989.746,"end":13013.289,"text":"這個我們經過上次記者會之後我們大概做了幾個動作啦第一個我們3月20號有發文給劇團那也當面在昨天也特別找了團長當面的面談好那你現在可不可以講一個多小時以前他們劇團已經正式在臉書上有正式的聲明書有大概他的講法我們他是說"},{"start":13014.13,"end":13017.817,"text":"請問我先很簡單第一次漢陽北館劇團你們問的時候他們是不是說謊"},{"start":13019.147,"end":13044.669,"text":"你們第一次給本席的就是說內容啊就是他完全沒有參與任何活動後來改成說沒有參與你們補助的活動所以就是說那些活動他們有參加但是只是不是你們的補助那這樣第一次你們給本席的資訊在我的記者會前不就是他們說謊然後你們不知道嗎我好心想說你們不知道我想這個是他們帶給我們的資訊那我現在問您他第一次是不是說謊嘛"},{"start":13046.998,"end":13058.231,"text":"我想這個是可能他們表這個我們不敢確認他是不是刻意的還是說他不是刻意說謊所以他有說謊只是你不知道他是不是刻意嗎"},{"start":13061.307,"end":13089.535,"text":"好 那我要講的事情這麼重大一個性侵犯業界都知道漢陽北本劇團立委在詢問記者會前給你們空間還膽敢跟你們掩飾事實那之後你們有沒有再問他說你們第一次為什麼沒有告訴我們那個 您知道這件事情嗎因為我今天質詢前又繼續跟你們要資料啦是那他們有沒有給你一個解釋為什麼第一次不給你真實完整的資訊"},{"start":13093.223,"end":13111.054,"text":"沒有 您到現在都不知道請關切這件事情如果黃子嬌從此不能夠看任何的不能上節目的話這個是性侵犯而且是十幾名學生那這件事情是非常嚴重的好嗎如果一個汗陽北管劇團跟你們說謊的話然後只不讓他參加送你們補助的活動卻讓他上台表演在別的活動我認為這個汗陽北管劇團他在倫理上對性別平等的價值上"},{"start":13122.882,"end":13146.458,"text":"真的就是說不值得拿到我們公家的資源補助那是不是可以請您去調查了解一下他為什麼說謊 好不好好那另外就是因為時間的緣故客家電視台啊我現在覺得那個您是 您的身份是委員好 我是台長台長喔那您有沒有看到那天那個你們客家電視台我們邀請他來我們的記者會他當天說的話有"},{"start":13149.82,"end":13163.051,"text":"我不知道你們是找一個不會說話的人來記者會讓我們執政黨的立委覺得非常的難堪就講一個好像完全聽不懂我們在變什麼為什麼不找一個了解狀況的人他分明就是在迴避有沒有參與排練的事實"},{"start":13165.413,"end":13180.916,"text":"在我今天質詢前給我的資料也完全迴避我們問的是人家人本 戲曲學院自己做的調查都有四名學生接到校友的邀請當天才知道是李詩佳"},{"start":13182.057,"end":13204.539,"text":"講的是排練那你們在跟我玩文字遊戲給我的公視今天的公視幫他背書你這個客家電視台的調查真的是講的是說沒有參加角色名單工作沒有我們講的是排練那你在玩文字遊戲說他沒有演出沒有掛名工作人員你覺得我這個立委是要跟你玩文字遊戲嗎"},{"start":13206.673,"end":13221.785,"text":"局長你有沒有看過給本席的你們的東西公文你同意這個公文的品質嗎報告委員確實在那一天的記者會之後我們同步採取了三個比較主要的行動除了聽到劇團的說法我們不排除就是"},{"start":13222.225,"end":13241.233,"text":"他有不是事實的可能所以我們協同公視的法務人員到他們講到的排練地點實地去敞刊那同時也跟三個主要關鍵的包括團長製作人還有在記者會上提到紅信的老師當面面談從早上九點到十二點是在三月十五號週六這個日子"},{"start":13241.733,"end":13257.119,"text":"那我們也接續的用公文的方式協請台灣戲曲學院以及教育部協助我們調查我知道你們都在公文往返啦那你們有沒有問他說到底有沒有讓學生跟這個性侵狼屍理屍排列就這麼簡單的事實陳述他跟你說沒有"},{"start":13259.54,"end":13274.689,"text":"是不是我們透過公文的方式也確實收到回函那他們不僅有這個台灣李源戲劇團的回函還有當時的導演以及你們都只能跟他們公文喔不能夠你們下面的節目只能跟他們公文不能問他說有沒有參與有我們有問他那他說沒有"},{"start":13279.412,"end":13289.861,"text":"收到的資訊目前因為沒有辦法用單方的資訊來做驗證所以我們協請教育部或許他們那邊可以有比較多我想我們周圍站起來不想浪費大家時間部長你聽到他們調查的品質了"},{"start":13295.586,"end":13316.164,"text":"就是說不知道為什麼只能用公文公文都在迴避事實說沒有做別的事那可是公文都已經呈現很危險的資料要那位主角去跟這個理事請教身段請教什麼然後講得不清不楚我的中文不夠好看不懂到底有沒有碰面什麼之後只有電話那之前呢為什麼要玩這種文字遊戲你們這種調查品質文化部長請您"},{"start":13320.988,"end":13343.282,"text":"讓他們台長本身性別平等的訓練顯然不足文資剛剛那位是局長嘛顯然不夠重視這件事我跟他說性侵十幾名戲曲學院終生不得聘任的老師那可以讓下面的人這樣子呼嚨我們大家浪費我的時間我們去年就揭曝這個事情今年又跟郭玉琴委員今年三個立委"},{"start":13343.902,"end":13359.596,"text":"今天我再度質詢還是沒辦法得到答案真的是非常非常對你們不夠重視這件事情非常的失望我相信部長不了解這件事情部長可不可以給我一個檢討報告為什麼一個案子要花我們這麼多時間他是杏青郎師十幾名學生部長可以給我一個檢討報告嗎"},{"start":13366.033,"end":13371.715,"text":"我知道他們正在調查了可是這個過程真的讓人失望那多久內可以給我一個檢討報告我要以文化部的名義給我一個檢討報告 好嗎兩個月還是一個月 部長兩個月好嗎好 兩個月 好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝好 謝謝范雲委員 部長請回我們接下來請王洪威委員"},{"start":13402.137,"end":13411.642,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長還有我們央廣董事長賴董事長好我們請李部長還有賴董事長王委員您好先等先等董事長"},{"start":13425.217,"end":13449.885,"text":"部長董事長我想不管是公視或者是央廣都是國家的電視台廣播電台而且都拿了非常多的公務預算但是我看今天的質詢都發現在這裡面藏汙納垢我今天主要是要來問剛才董事長有回答羅廷維委員大家都要問央廣四年前的弊案"},{"start":13451.085,"end":13459.416,"text":"有沒有調查報告剛才部長還有董事長說有調查報告報告在哪裡報告公佈在哪裡請回答公佈在哪裡"},{"start":13467.366,"end":13487.674,"text":"跟羅委員報告這個報告因為還在廉政署的報告調查當中所以你們根本沒有公布報告嗎很抱歉我要說明我們後來經過了去識別化之後提供給所有關心這個案子的委員然後我們也請託所以只有個別委員是所以並沒有公開報告好我要講的是這個幣案請問一下央廣的預算來自於全體納稅人的錢"},{"start":13497.097,"end":13512.64,"text":"所以你只公布給關心的委員或者之前有詢問過的委員所以並沒有做出一個向人民報告的一個公開的報告那請問一下剛才董事長也說啊這個事情我們已經檢討過了請問一下有懲處任何一位嗎而當時所懲處的說當時有留任員職而且還升官的是不是仍然維持這樣的一個懲處"},{"start":13528.161,"end":13536.846,"text":"當時的主管已經被撤職然後同時有寄過所以並沒有升官 並不是這個樣寄過 有沒有離職 有沒有撤職沒有吧 董事長 當時請問一下當時的崔少仁有沒有跟你"},{"start":13554.652,"end":13557.444,"text":"報告過包含這個弊案跟他霸凌有沒有"},{"start":13558.464,"end":13585.836,"text":"跟委員報告在我上任之後這個案子我有去了解但是我也做內部的所以你知道嗎請問你當央廣董事長多久了三年三年所以這個四年前的案子這個案子崔少仁一直緊追不放到現在為止好在廉政署公佈了你們相關因為廉政署是沒有完全公佈但是已經他的報告公開五千多筆有超過兩千四百筆單據一場"},{"start":13587.597,"end":13591.158,"text":"所以 董事長 你沒有責任嗎?你沒有責任嗎?你剛講說感到遺憾一句遺憾 結束了嗎?部長 你去蕭蕭演講的時候拿了一個大碗公說這個是討飯吃請問一下今天是可以用這種炸零然後這些不實的單據來討飯吃嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":13614.022,"end":13626.837,"text":"所以董事長你對這件事情有沒有任何的行政責任呢你自己有沒有任何行政責任你自己說你當了央視那個就是央廣三年當了央廣三年的董事長對這個案子到現在為止你只是親戚的一句遺憾"},{"start":13635.481,"end":13635.942,"text":"妳要道歉嗎?"},{"start":13665.982,"end":13691.114,"text":"公道的一個來處理請問一下有關於他的霸凌案你們會重啟調查嗎是的我們已經公告我們已經重啟調查然後這個調查裡頭會有法外部的法律專家跟律師然後會有心理師而且還會什麼時候重啟調查這個案子重新立案調查我們前天已經公開宣布了"},{"start":13691.454,"end":13715.289,"text":"所以從前天才開始如果今天當事人沒有再公開聲明沒有再公開向社會大眾呼喊你們也沒有重新調查所以是在前天才開始重新立案調查好董事長再給你最後一個機會最後機會你對這個案子除了遺憾之外你有任何的道歉嗎"},{"start":13716.792,"end":13734.581,"text":"我針對過去央廣曾經有違規或者是不法的事情針對那個時候所呈現的事情我現在代表央廣我可以說這是非常遺憾的但是我們也做了非常多的道歉不認為要道歉我甚至認為連部長這件事情等一下我現在問部長不要浪費我時間"},{"start":13745.146,"end":13773.732,"text":"你該講的時候不講現在一直講你該處理的時候不處理部長當時這三個這三年來剛才董事長也說他擔任董事他擔任董事崔少仁有把相關的這些資料提供給董事包含他霸凌的情形被霸凌的情形他也提供給董事那請問一下如果現在還在留任董事的你要不要重新做一個調查請問"},{"start":13775.52,"end":13791.886,"text":"他們的責任要不要重新做一個調查其實每件事情他都沒有講這麼簡單比如說吹哨人他是不是真的吹哨人他霸凌是不是在墾丁中調查中有霸凌我們把很多事情把它簡化掉但是我非常承認這件事情非常嚴重"},{"start":13792.546,"end":13810.994,"text":"因為我在這個文化界工作50年我經歷過很多機構非常多的貪污非常多的假帳我非常不能夠忍受所以我承諾你我會搞清楚 好嗎好 謝謝部長我覺得包括當然這個案件還有當事人說他被霸凌他現在重新立案調查在這個過程裡面這個懲處"},{"start":13815.296,"end":13829.134,"text":"當時陳處 大家都有質疑還有所有經手的 主管也好 董事也好剛站在後面 他也是擔任董事我認為都要重啟行政調查 可以嗎"},{"start":13829.977,"end":13852.544,"text":"沒有問題啊我個人聽到這個我就會想到我過去這50年來到處遇到這種事情啊但是事情的真相只有靠徹底調查不能夠再聽單方面的話我跟您承諾謝謝我不希望到時候吹哨人又要重新的再去跟社會大眾做一次呼籲跟呼喊好不好是是沒問題謝謝好謝謝謝謝王宏威委員不讓請回喔好我們接下來請洪孟凱委員"},{"start":13867.662,"end":13869.352,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請李遠部長"},{"start":13872.278,"end":13899.694,"text":"好有請李部長部長 黃偉你好我想延續因為今天一早上大家都很關心央廣這件事件您剛剛也再一次重申身為文化人不能接受有這樣子被詐領的一個案件嘛 是不是好 但是我覺得不要高高舉起輕輕放下這件事情為什麼感覺到那麼的嚴重我覺得還是幾個部分我們看一下現在新聞已經揭露出來的狀況"},{"start":13902.162,"end":13930.678,"text":"檢報 有嗎來 下一張 下一張好 2000多筆異常這是現在廉政署暴露出來的嘛那當時是有委由來 我們上一張當時是文化部有要求央廣要委外調查但調查報告沒有公開那我想請教當時的委外調查報告結案了沒有結案嘛 有沒有送到文化部"},{"start":13932.677,"end":13932.697,"text":"什麼?"},{"start":13945.45,"end":13966.317,"text":"當時都有逐級成合都有成合 有成合到部長嗎是的 那成合之後也因為我們會針對中間其實有些比較缺失的太陽我們也在111年的時候就進行了移送檢調的動作那目前就是在偵查當中所以過去三年多已從111年的時候送檢調到現在才再次來做處理是不是這樣當時這個報告列為不公開是誰的決定是文化部還是央廣"},{"start":13976.232,"end":13985.371,"text":"因為這一份查核報告是央廣進行委外的部分是文化部要求央廣委外調查那但是到最後調查報告不公開這是誰的決定"},{"start":13988.342,"end":14008.848,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個案子他這個會計師裡頭的資料有非常多的個資而且有些人並不見得違法所以當時董事會是有除了向文化部向商城還有董事會報告之外並沒有對外公開好來部長來我們再看下一張"},{"start":14013.691,"end":14034.444,"text":"當時的行政報告其實行政調查其實就是高高舉起輕輕放下錢沒有落入到任何一個口袋但是認定沒有弊端這是現在這邊秀出來的那結果時任的職員還都有留在原職有人退休還有人高升我想請教部長"},{"start":14036.506,"end":14047.615,"text":"經過上禮拜到這禮拜這樣紛紛擾擾以及你今天早上我想你今天來備詢一定是有備而來嘛有沒有了解到底有多少涉案的人如今還高升有沒有了解並沒有人高升啊並沒有人高升所以說這個新聞寫錯我不知道他寫的一人升任組密一人退休"},{"start":14060.491,"end":14065.047,"text":"這個是我要請教單事人他有沒有生竹蜜有沒有退休我真的不知道"},{"start":14065.888,"end":14094.994,"text":"你真的不知道還是你不了解還是從頭到尾沒有想要去關心這件事情部長這是你的態度問題耶本席剛剛很認同或說很尊重你的態度也認為是說有弊案那個時候你不是當部長所以你不了解不怪你但是從上禮拜五出來這件事件央廣昨天發了新聞稿央廣新聞稿當然寫得很漂亮冠冕堂皇改了多少改了多少但重點在於是2015年到2021年七年多"},{"start":14095.934,"end":14121.668,"text":"的時間裡面高達兩三千筆的錯誤單據那還有這些錯誤單據不是只是央廣的部分它裡面甚至有提到是說也有跟其他的公家機關互相的帳戶的往來不清也因此才會有廉政署出手嘛為什麼是有廉政署出手就是因為是公務體系內部的不管是支出 不管是收入廉政署來處理啊"},{"start":14127.366,"end":14139.365,"text":"您覺得這都沒您的事還是好官我自為之反正有啊那時候有行政調查報告啊有簽到文化部啊沒錯啊央廣的董事長剛剛有講了但那個時候的部長不是我啊"},{"start":14140.333,"end":14160.82,"text":"不是這樣子好官我自為之也不是這樣子其實我剛才一直跟你們講我幹了五十年幹過多少機構這種事情當然是有我完全不能忍受當然不能忍受我也不能忍受但是我不能夠忘下我更沒有辦法接受事實上發生事情之後還沒有辦法公開透明我為什麼不能忘下結論因為這裡面一定很複雜嘛人為的 結構的"},{"start":14165.182,"end":14188.016,"text":"財務的 會計的 法律的我看起來喔非常複雜複雜是人搞出來的因為當時文化部已經要求委外調查為什麼要委外為什麼不是我們部內調查就是怕部內調查可能官官相護嘛那我既然已經委外調查了結果調查出來的結果之後以一個錢沒有進任何人口袋然後就結案了事"},{"start":14192.213,"end":14210.407,"text":"那部長我還是尊重喔我尊重你要看不慣路見不平拔刀相助要來調查要來要求用你的態度讓所有文化部下面的單位或者是至少我們讓我們的公務體系知道未來不會有這樣的狀況您要怎麼做"},{"start":14213.028,"end":14227.759,"text":"再找另外一個委外單位來調查不會不會 我們目前剛剛已經講過公管集團的董事會已經要求成立一個專案小組那這個部分我會責成專案小組的負責人會是誰我不曉得"},{"start":14235.525,"end":14249.899,"text":"這個就是央廣的事情我們現在釐清到現在了就是央廣內部的問題四年前為什麼文化部要求委外調查就是認為說不要公關相護那結果做出來的調查報告是這個樣子你現在再過來四年後"},{"start":14251.024,"end":14266.956,"text":"廉政署在處理廉政署的工作但你自己有內部調查的作業那我現在請教內部調查的作業到底是部長宣誓來說我來帶領這個專案小組來查弊案來檢視到底有沒有不合理還是你責成哪一個市長"},{"start":14269.096,"end":14284.012,"text":"這跟處理霸凌案事件我覺得類似啊霸凌案事件絕對不能讓那個單位自己主管自己調查如果說那個單位主管自己調查的話那 抱歉一定是大事化小 小事化無嘛那我現在已經有出來這樣的狀況而且"},{"start":14286.132,"end":14304.2,"text":"上禮拜新聞你也有表示檢調調查中文化部的態度是完全透明好嘛 那檢調調查 廉政署調查的歸廉政署調查但你文化部到目前為止你之前 今天早上我有聽到喔你說一個月裡面也要給我們相關資料"},{"start":14305.541,"end":14316.032,"text":"那我們可以期待什麼一個月如果你到現在都不知道說誰來負責做這件事情我怎麼期待我一個月之後收到什麼樣的資料會不會又是兩頁三頁部長"},{"start":14321.687,"end":14347.745,"text":"我想在這邊跟你保證我請次長我們一個次長層級的次長來盯整件事因為他比較負責全部的因為本身我想請王次他本身也是在我們部裡面負責這種霸凌性平的那他剛好也是負責這個單位可以嗎我在這裡跟你保證因為我也不希望這種事情一直拖下去王實施次長"},{"start":14348.525,"end":14375.475,"text":"負責整個專案報告來把這件事情從過去四年的機密文件機密報告沒有公開的也做一個釐清以及現在的狀況一個月後可以給我們立法院可以讓國人知道到底這個事情的經過是怎麼樣去標籤化沒有要個資但去標籤化釐清事實真相是嗎"},{"start":14376.67,"end":14403.281,"text":"我跟委員報告我們自己在我們文化部部內律己慎言對那個姓平的一個紅人我相信百分之九十九點九會說有靈丸當然真的很有信任也都絕對不會通常枉法但是既然已經出現了我們就把它給釐清 好嗎是不是部長會後再跟紅委員報告好不好不好意思"},{"start":14407.196,"end":14412,"text":"好 部長辛苦請回好 我們接下來請伍麗華委員謝謝主席 有請部長好 有請部長"},{"start":14427.688,"end":14429.13,"text":"部長好 部長我們今年有一個國際矚目的大活動4月13號即將登場"},{"start":14439.198,"end":14465.025,"text":"就是在日本大阪舉辦的世界博覽會那我也特別在新聞中看到上個月交通部林佳龍部長和外交部林部長跟您也有一個會議就是你們特別提到這個世界博覽會即將到來你們要聯手要來延伸去年巴黎文化奧運的成功經驗"},{"start":14466.445,"end":14491.51,"text":"那文化部這邊這次會做哪些事情這個活動從4月開始已經由經濟部開始為主導我們大概在8月我們是8月那個你們8月要進場對 然後會一個比較長的時間在不同地點表演部長 我跟您說我其實也很關心我去年有找來國貿署"},{"start":14493.43,"end":14512.766,"text":"以及要來承攬這個的中華冒險我曾經兩度請他們到辦公室來因為我很關心展出的內容有沒有邀請我們原住民的這些藝文團體又或者說展覽的內容有沒有有關我們台灣原住民族的文化"},{"start":14513.627,"end":14527.777,"text":"但是在預算會期的時候 我看到更憂心的是竟然被刪了5.9億的旅費 業務費等等等甚至是沒宣費用5900萬也被刪除"},{"start":14531.339,"end":14560.019,"text":"那我今天是來文化部這邊我就是特別想要來關心我們文化部我相信很多的部會可以一同的在這樣的一個世界博覽會舞台上來共同的努力展現我們台灣多元的文化所以在這邊就是特別希望我們部長您要關心像例如有一個議題我在去年有接到一個陳情這個陳情人呢他其實是日本人"},{"start":14560.939,"end":14582.902,"text":"他說他到他們大阪這個國立的原住民族博物館過去長期以來都有展出我們台灣各個族群的物件但是他感到很驚訝因為有一個展覽叫做中國地域之文化的展覽"},{"start":14583.883,"end":14607.5,"text":"也就是中國的版圖的意思啦他看到這個展區呢有把我們原住民族寫成高山族把它納入中國的版圖來展覽甚至呢原來一模一樣台灣展的物件呢被拿去移植也來做他們中國的展示廳的展品"},{"start":14608.18,"end":14612.044,"text":"那這個部分他之所以驚訝是說他不太理解從台灣來的參與者呢好像沒有做什麼抗議導致他們的管方也沒有辦法理解這種一中五入台灣的嚴重性那我不曉得說部長您知不知道這個事情那這一次剛好我們的世界博覽會又要在大阪"},{"start":14630.484,"end":14638.352,"text":"那我相信很多來自全世界各地的遊客也都會來這個博物館參觀部長你有沒有有一些了解"},{"start":14639.89,"end":14662.188,"text":"這件事情我並不知道但是我知道中國本身在各個地方都把台灣試著納入它的一部分這個是它本身不斷地在做的事情但是站在我們的立場我非常努力地從去年巴黎文化奧運到現在我們在每一次的任何展出都要強調我們是來自台灣即使在"},{"start":14663.149,"end":14691.989,"text":"官方網站上不准出現台灣我們都非常努力的用各種方式出現那中國用這個方式其實他們到處在用這個方式包括我們申請這個世界遺址他們也很快把我們蓋過去像這個事情到處都發生那部長我之所以會提是因為4月13號就在大阪冷場那正在我們的大阪這個國立民族學的博物館呢"},{"start":14692.95,"end":14707.557,"text":"有這樣的一個站出然後陳情的人他說我們台灣沒有表示什麼立場那照理說全世界博物館都在解殖民啊那我們其實是不贊同"},{"start":14708.297,"end":14726.405,"text":"我們把這些殖民收購來的文物放在博覽館炫耀展示當然它有它教育的意義我們也可以這樣說但是現在世界的趨勢是要解殖民所以我在這個地方就是特別提出來我希望部長你能夠去了解這件事也請同仁能夠去讓我們知道未來它目前的狀況跟未來因應的一個方向那也作為文化部未來我們在這個全世界各地"},{"start":14738.09,"end":14753.087,"text":"這些博物館內的原住民的 特別是原住民的這些收藏品像我自己也協助在愛丁堡 英國愛丁堡那個遺骨返還那我想文化部未來有沒有這樣的一個政策性的規劃"},{"start":14755.55,"end":14781.22,"text":"我剛剛委員講到解職這個概念台灣本身針對早期別人怎麼稱呼是高山族或者高沙族到現在改成原住民其實這些年來我們一直把原住民的文化裡面每一個習俗 舞蹈 歌唱都代表台灣出去一個非常重要的元素這點請委員放心我們都會把它列入是一個非常重要的表演"},{"start":14781.34,"end":14807.086,"text":"那這個大阪的國立民族學博物館我也請部長因為這個活動我完全不知道的所以部長這其實是蠻駭人的一件事情讓人很驚訝那作為文化部我希望部長能夠請我們的同仁能夠去了解也能夠跟辦公室這邊做一個報告好 那另外一件事情在三個月前我要特別謝謝文化部文字局"},{"start":14808.806,"end":14829.593,"text":"泰雅族的很重要很重要的這個所謂的聖石Svayam他們已經努力了十多年終於成功的通過作為國家級的文資重要文化資產我必須要在這個地方來特別來跟部長文化部說聲謝謝但是真的很辛苦爭取十多年"},{"start":14830.313,"end":14851.683,"text":"那我自己是在2020年的2月進入到立法院我也有接受他們的陳情那當時呢我們有協助就是爭取前瞻再造歷史場域的經費當時有爭取到800多萬可以把這個地方去做一個所謂的文化設施的整理但很可惜就是地方政府沒有作為"},{"start":14852.583,"end":14872.963,"text":"所以最後這筆錢收回那我們要再次的協助地方去爭取也謝謝最後文化部文資局這邊也有提供兩百多萬讓他們可以去做步道等等那我在這邊要提這個問題的原因是說其實我們有一個原住民族重大歷史文化事件紀念空間的補助要點"},{"start":14875.646,"end":14894.216,"text":"那過去呢 園民會 它是提出了原住民重大的歷史文化事件有十大事件 他們也有專書那文化部這邊呢 是空間補助作業要點我想請教一下部長 就是到底做了幾個空間補助局長也可以局長比較具體跟您報告一下那個項目"},{"start":14903.36,"end":14927.779,"text":"這個原住民族的重大歷史事件它的定義都是由原民會它會定義哪些重大歷史事件那我們在這個補助要點裡面它第一個就是這些重大歷史事件它必須有做了幾件了現在目前我們有三個案子已經有所謂重大歷史事件也包括所以做了三個案子物色事件物色事件那牡丹色事件好那我其實之前在原民會文化部我都有質詢過"},{"start":14929.56,"end":14948.414,"text":"我們不局限在十大像我之前有提過南番事件也很重要那謝謝也有補助調研的經費但是調研的下一步是什麼 結案啦原民會那邊有補助調研經費 結案啦那能不能夠申請空間補助"},{"start":14951.001,"end":14974.537,"text":"可以啊 只要他有文化資產身份就可以那像那個李洞山事件呢李洞山現在正在做文化資產調查研究是 調研經費也有給了嘛我們都希望做完調研的下一步我們應該要到所謂的空間的補助那我在這個地方特別做這樣的一個提醒因為說實在 案件非常的少 速度比較緩慢一點"},{"start":14976.098,"end":14986.79,"text":"那在這裡呢 我很重視空間 為什麼因為原住民是在跟我們的時間賽跑所以我一直很關心 像有很多的東西像我舉個例子 石板屋其實石板屋是很美 很重要的一個文化資產但是呢 老師要取得文資身份喔 很累"},{"start":14996.101,"end":15007.847,"text":"然後呢 如果壞掉了修復 他又沒有所謂的建造始造也很難去申請所謂的一個修復那一般老百姓 我也沒錢啊他也不願意修復 然後就沒有了"},{"start":15013.601,"end":15043.061,"text":"我想這個不是我們政府的希望所以我常常說這一些不具文字身份的那我們要怎麼樣去改善我們在跟時間賽跑像很多的祖靈屋非常的重要但是也苦於找不到對應的科目可以來申請經費像是我們的這個所謂的國家文化記憶庫以這個彭水光或者是琉璃珠之母江雅蕾這兩位這個是他們的私人博物館"},{"start":15044.242,"end":15070.884,"text":"他們自己在家裡也自己做博物館一邊做他們的工作室一邊做這樣的一個地方私人的博物館但是很辛苦像我常常講他已經要被人家收回了他也不知道他未來的這些展覽要放在哪裡那像彭水光他已經失智了那他的家人也不知道這一些這麼漂亮的木雕到底要何去何從甚至有可能要把它給一一的賣掉"},{"start":15072.705,"end":15087.379,"text":"我想這也不是我們國家要的所以像這種只記憶但是我們卻沒有辦法保存非常的可惜那甚至是像我們很多原住民的巫師我們所謂的靈媒布林奧那他們呢傳承也很困難"},{"start":15090.982,"end":15095.383,"text":"一一的凋零他們也很希望我們能夠使用政府的什麼計畫嗎是師徒制可以給我們嗎他們其實都很辛苦我講這些只是因為我看到我們的夜報上我們有一個新的計畫叫做百大文化基地那我認真看了一下好像喔像有提到地方文化館提到文化展演據點社區營造的地方據點文化路徑等等等"},{"start":15119.631,"end":15124.145,"text":"我不知道他們有沒有資格那請教一下 正美醫案補助的很多嗎這個計畫會維持幾年呢"},{"start":15128.595,"end":15156.711,"text":"好 我跟委員報告一下這個計畫是一個新想出來的一個計畫是它每兩年一次每兩年舉行一次讓各地方的場館博物館 美術館或者您剛才講到原住民的一些社造他們都來申請申請之後我們請學者專家選出100個它的目的就是去凸顯它不同的文化層面所以是每兩年選出100個對 然後預算並不高預算多少"},{"start":15157.051,"end":15176.343,"text":"每一個被選出來的我們給他五十萬分兩年可是我想要做的另外一件事就是試著去用這樣的方式去找到別的部會一起來做謝謝部長 謝謝您我喜歡很感動你這樣的一個表態對 我要講的意思就是這樣很多很多摯愛難行的"},{"start":15177.984,"end":15182.207,"text":"我覺得我們如果覺得他真的重要我們就付諸行動我們來想一個計畫的型態我們來抱怨我們核定之後我們來幫助他們所以在這邊我聽到部長這樣的回應我非常的高興請部長還有我們的局長你們都很努力我們繼續一起努力一起加油謝謝主席是我們會努力好那也希望就是一個月內能夠把這樣的一個態度也能夠用一個書面回應給我好謝謝"},{"start":15208.868,"end":15211.431,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝吳麗華委員 部長就位接下來我們請吳思瑤委員謝謝主席 請部長好 有請部長"},{"start":15230.686,"end":15248.014,"text":"吳委員你好吳長好很開心回教文會來關心我最在乎的文化政策那當然我會聚焦在這一次的預算被二砍二山二棟文化成了重災戶當然我也期待您說的文化人不是要飯的我們要一起來做打造台灣的文化聚寶盆"},{"start":15252.856,"end":15276.805,"text":"但是預算就是受害了 我們怎麼辦呢下一頁我這邊要先跟您談喔最近大家都在講言論自由我放的是我立志從政就是1989年我受到鄭楠榮先生他為了爭取台灣百分之百的言論自由 他自焚了那時候我十多歲我因此立志我要從政"},{"start":15277.725,"end":15302.367,"text":"小葉老師您也是在美麗島事件前後您原本在美國就回來台灣您投入台灣的電影新浪潮的運動甚至你投入電視界以後你也推動台灣電視界的文化復興我想您的DNA裡頭是絕對追求百分之百的創作自由的但是呢言論自由有兩種一種是真正的言論自由"},{"start":15303.428,"end":15326.962,"text":"是宪法层级也是国际的公民与政治国际公约所保护的言论自由但是有一种言论自由是坏的是错的是假的就是假借言论自由来进行仇恨的暴力的战争的鼓吹我想您都非常认同言论自由有两种台湾要捍卫哪一种中配也有两种"},{"start":15327.987,"end":15348.433,"text":"一種是在台灣但是卻鼓張鼓吹武統濫用台灣的言論自由的呀呀另外一種讓我們可敬的中配就是八旗出版社的復查他在台灣因為出版了一些中國不喜歡的書"},{"start":15350.117,"end":15359.827,"text":"他剛被判刑你知道嗎在中國毫無正當法律程序毫無公開審判的司法下他被求重刑"},{"start":15361.127,"end":15381.408,"text":"中配有兩種我們要捍衛跟支持的是複查這一種但是複查的事件當然我知道文化部第一時間想救援但是也尊重家屬的意願但是無論如何作為台灣文化出版文學創作的大家長複查被重判"},{"start":15382.609,"end":15395.096,"text":"文化部有沒有任何聲援部長有沒有利用您的臉書您也是個文學人文化人我們給予捍衛台灣的自由創作出版自由我們應當發聲我們應當發聲有沒有"},{"start":15401.408,"end":15406.954,"text":"我在民間的時候我有參與這個聲援但是作為文化部長的時候 我覺得我們的官方的聲明不曉得會不會危害到複雜 更嚴重的被中共對抗所以我理解在當時不明的狀況之下 我們是要拿捏"},{"start":15423.61,"end":15442.25,"text":"但现在因为中共要的就是造成寒蝉效应让台湾的出版自由受到强害这个时候我认为文化部应当有所声援的动作同样的我们有这么多的文化界的人士站出来因为我们的文化预算被恶砍"},{"start":15443.433,"end":15471.491,"text":"所以文化人的集結發生今天有第三片的這個反罷免對不起這個投入這個我們大罷免的這個我在這裡不講政治我講文化因為每一天文化人在做的就是批判社會就是關懷政治那同樣的楊立洲導演也受到了暴力的威脅某種程度他的文化表意的自由也受到強害我認為文化部也要聲援他力挺他"},{"start":15472.797,"end":15472.919,"text":"你認為呢"},{"start":15474.721,"end":15503.118,"text":"委員講到這裡我跟委員講當揚立州出現有人威脅的時候其實我就找內政部長我說他這樣子發生我們得抓到那個威脅他的人然後我們要給他加強維安那內政部長跟我講說他第一次被威脅他就有加強維安那最近公布出來已經抓到那個當初威脅他的人是一個計程車司機所以這一切我想我們國家能做就是我們也不能干預"},{"start":15503.598,"end":15525.444,"text":"第一线保护维安就如同刚刚我们要保护复查在中国那时候下落不明他的安全我同意但是必要的时候我认为当台湾的创作自由受到强害的时候作为文化的大家长我们必须捍卫我们的自由在文化人来讲这非常重要下一页为什么要锁定文化预算来恶砍重砍下一页"},{"start":15526.553,"end":15548.968,"text":"就是如果台灣的文化被噤聲了這個世界上只剩下中國的文化霸權只剩下中國的聲音前夜所以這一次文化預算遭刪除11億遭凍結34億樣樣相向都對準了讓我們的文化被勒住了脖子我要說這是中國的文化霸權"},{"start":15549.889,"end":15564.602,"text":"他鎖定了文化部門下一頁而除了鎖定文化部門他更鎖定文化部門當中的第一線的發聲的管道例如特定經費從我們的國際交流國際旅費媒體宣傳來下手然後針對機構的部分鎖定了公視還好被民意擋下來"},{"start":15575.765,"end":15601.471,"text":"沒了公視 當初要砍23億沒了公視 台灣要看央視嗎台灣plus也被下重手當然我對台灣plus很多的營運還要再努力我也有意見 我也要監督但是這都是他們重中之重的鎖定包括中央通訊社也是為台灣文化發生重要的平台還有剛剛一直在被在野黨委員為難的央廣"},{"start":15604.059,"end":15610.888,"text":"陽廣如果有弊案當然要查我也不容不查跟怠惰但是弊案調查中"},{"start":15612.533,"end":15639.506,"text":"調查中的案子不要再來政治干預調查了所以這些都是台灣被消音了世界只剩下中國的聲音我認為這一切的作為包括鎖定文化預算還有文化預算當中的特定機構還有央廣不斷的被為難央廣這幾年做了很多過去的央廣做不到的事譬如說強化國際的鏈接譬如說央廣"},{"start":15641.829,"end":15661.217,"text":"去成立了我們新聞部的這個中國小組我們要向社會傳達正確的華人的聲音還有我們全面針對媒體的嗜讀如何來因應防範認知作戰這都是這幾年央廣的成就不要因為"},{"start":15662.818,"end":15684.963,"text":"單一弊案打趴央廣這事背後的政治意圖是什麼要給予央廣努力的同仁合理的評價所以從公共電視、台灣Plus中央通訊社乃至於央廣你也認為是不是有被集中鎖定這背後有一個不知名的力量讓我們必須要慎防"},{"start":15687.486,"end":15702.333,"text":"我覺得獨裁政權最怕就是這種文化跟言論自由跟媒體一個獨裁政權它最需要封鎖的就是這個那我覺得像我們這次被審預算的時候我也發現到為什麼全部是針對這個公共媒體"},{"start":15703.433,"end":15730.155,"text":"我感謝那個委員剛才講到那個中央央廣其實這幾年央廣也好中央通訊社也好公視基金會也好他們扮演的角色不如不如外面所說的只有那些缺點他們的確也扮演了一個公共媒體的重要性那這次被刪的結果台灣plus他有很多做不對的地方但是他這次的刪是刪掉刪跟動大概有"},{"start":15731.164,"end":15756.692,"text":"去掉一半他幾乎要關台那他我承認他有很多問題我也還不滿意他在做了五年之後他累積了一些那個成果跟能量也是很難得的但你把他一口氣關掉那等於前面的努力全部白費所以我我認為這次的刪減是非常有針對性是謝謝主席我最後收尾我想"},{"start":15758.339,"end":15774.453,"text":"文化部門受重傷 我長期爭取文化建設從前瞻 從無私要催生的文化發展基金我後面沒有時間講了 下一頁但是我們如何讓台灣文化的聚寶盆讓文化免於這一次的全面性的災難"},{"start":15775.894,"end":15794.565,"text":"我們還要有更多想方設法我非常謝謝大家我這幾天陸續找各個私處同仁大家來商量那因為剛剛講到國際傳媒馬上就上路的大阪勢博文化勢博的部分我們因此也受了影響它馬上就到了我們要善用Mega Event"},{"start":15795.425,"end":15815.405,"text":"讓台灣的文化成為台灣的Nation Brand國家的品牌有沒有可能用各種方式在經費被刪百分之百的每天預算被刪但是文化勢博在大阪又是這麼台日友好的大阪有沒有任何方式強化我們在文化勢博這一次的推廣就在今年"},{"start":15816.736,"end":15841.913,"text":"就是說預算被大概兩千萬的所有宣傳那個費用在這邊全部被刪掉那我們現在就想辦法透過跟民間組織合作然後透過跟外交部的合作我們一定不會因為預算被刪減之後讓這個活動我給期許我也持續給監督但我也持續送暖謝謝主席給我時間後面的題目都沒辦法講我希望還有文化部門的機會我可以跟大家來討論謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝吳斯堯委員"},{"start":15846.576,"end":15849.818,"text":"好 部長請回好 接下來請高金淑美委員謝謝主席 有請李部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":15864.741,"end":15884.989,"text":"高委員您好部長好 上次本席在這邊跟您討論跟要求您的部分就是預算編列反映了政策的思想文化部在113年度的總預算有298億元可是在原住民族文化事務發展相關經費卻只有2億元僅僅佔文化部總預算的0.7%我們連1%都不到當時部長您有允諾我"},{"start":15890.831,"end":15914.904,"text":"你說會增加原住民族文化發展預算也會提供給本席文化部明年度也就是114年度的預算的政策報告書並且你要制定民時相符的多元文化政策而今天文化部的業務報告裡面我看到了有關原住民的政策其實也只有三項第一項在第七頁"},{"start":15916.065,"end":15942.73,"text":"國家語言包含原住民族語這部分只有提起沒有提出具體的執行事項第二項是在第15頁就是辦理原住民族無形文化資產輔導工作坊部長您知道嗎正是本席在2022年10月22號在這裡針對前部長李永德為了要辦理解決文資爭議落實文化資產保存工作的時候提出的也"},{"start":15943.61,"end":15967.94,"text":"有具體的一些落實方案然後在你的第四項第23頁裡面說到台灣原創流行音樂大獎包含了原住民族語的組別這部分也只有提起沒有具體的執行事項請問部長我想請問你一下文化部在114年度的預算用在原住民族文化發展的預算有沒有增加"},{"start":15969.281,"end":15995.735,"text":"如果從預算上來看我們增加了七千七百二十一萬從數字上看就多了七千七百二十一萬那其實我們的原住民的文化預算他放在每一個科目裡面他不是一個我覺得您會這麼講所以呢在今天你業務報告裡面我搜尋相關原住民的就這三項好以上我提的這些問題還有這個預算實質要放在哪裡"},{"start":15996.855,"end":16010.764,"text":"能不能在一個星期之內提供完整的資料還有上次你答應過我的一年之內要怎麼提到援助民族的民時相輔的多元文化政策一個禮拜提供給我好嗎已經拖了一年了"},{"start":16012.185,"end":16027.374,"text":"已經拖了一年了因為它有些東西是它不是一個數字它真的是涵蓋在每個項目裡面我跟委員解釋一下不用解釋了部長因為今天沒有很多的時間好不好我請你兩個禮拜給我另外我想要請教部長作為一個資深的文化工作者還有作家"},{"start":16035.459,"end":16052.139,"text":"您經歷過戒嚴時期的言論還有思想的限制跟審查你也經歷了、了解了這個戒嚴之後所謂的民主自由的發展而你現在更成為了中華民國行政院的文化部長"},{"start":16053.18,"end":16081.535,"text":"按照您的資歷您怎麼看待台灣目前有75位學者昨天所發表的聲明而這份聲明有三個重點第一個台灣民主自由正在遭到破壞跟威脅第二不要讓今日的烏克蘭明日的台灣的咒語成真第三個台灣在兩岸跟世界和平上可以扮演關鍵的角色而這些學者他也呼籲"},{"start":16082.715,"end":16107.202,"text":"請政府停止思想審查而我們的總統府也立刻回應了這個說明他說鼓吹對台發動侵略戰爭仇恨跟強暴的犯行已經觸犯聯合國公約明確規範的犯罪行為是對台灣自由民主國家體制的挑戰也抵觸民主跟言論自由的紅線"},{"start":16108.522,"end":16129.879,"text":"部長你應該很清楚民進黨長年以來推崇言論自由的象徵是誰鄭南榮先生鄭南榮先生他曾經主張百分之百的言論自由而總統府發表的回應是不是表示台灣不再有百分之百的言論自由呢"},{"start":16131.833,"end":16156.05,"text":"請部長很謝謝委員問這個問題因為剛剛講到75位學者發起這個他們質疑這個言論自由有被損害這點我本身非常尊重因為在言論自由的環境中每一個人他都可以表達什麼是言論自由但是我們在言論自由的環境中大家享有言論自由之後他也可能會被"},{"start":16157.284,"end":16185.853,"text":"一個言論不自由的國家中國一個獨裁政權他的滲透就像說誰不希望和平呢有哪一個父母親會希望台灣打戰呢你說你要戰爭還是要和平當然是和平啊可是和平不可以是一個藉口說我們為了和平所以兩岸交流言論自由最後投降也可以啊只要只要和平啊和平是最高指標可是和平如果是在一個投降的"},{"start":16187.279,"end":16213.911,"text":"條件下他就不是和平啊部長說完了說完了我非常遺憾這個對於我認識以前的文化工作人的小野我覺得你的風骨跟你現在的言論是完全不一樣的最後因為時間的關係我要引用鄭南榮先生的一句話提醒部長您也提醒民進黨的朋友們這句話就是"},{"start":16215.091,"end":16224.117,"text":"槍口之下我們依然要爭取百分之一百的言論自由提醒您 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝高金書美委員不然請回我們接下來請李坤澄委員謝謝主席"},{"start":16243.601,"end":16247.897,"text":"這個 部長要喝口水嗎好 那請李部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":16253.747,"end":16282.148,"text":"部長好李委員你好辛苦了這個賴總統有17項的這個國安因應的策略那其中有跟文化部有相關的我看了一下有一個是加強輔導獎勵國內影視及文創產業的二指中國借文化同傳削弱台灣的主體性那另外一個是強化輔導管理在中發展影藝的從業人員那這兩點我想請教一下部長"},{"start":16282.788,"end":16286.583,"text":"那現在的這個因應的策略跟作為是什麼"},{"start":16289.214,"end":16315.7,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題我們有兩個方向一個就是剛剛第一個說要強大台灣自己文化的主體性包括影視跟文創產業這一點其實我們這幾年一直朝這個方向在做包括用那個國發基金的100億現在第二個100億去投下對影視方面的一些補助還有在文學 漫畫 音樂各方面"},{"start":16316.38,"end":16331.069,"text":"我們只有在這種方面讓我們的文化產業很蓬勃的話我們才能夠留住我們的所有的藝術家跟文化人那我其實在這短短的十個月我日子過得好快"},{"start":16331.949,"end":16360.168,"text":"十個月內其實我有擬定很多很多讓文化人有感覺他自己有被尊重的一些一些辦法這點我會努力的來推第二個講到更具體的就是針對中國藝人台灣藝人去中國發出那些言論過去我們完全沒有針對某一個藝人做出什麼懲罰那現在我們要加強就是對於他的言行的了解如果他在"},{"start":16360.928,"end":16384.419,"text":"中國大陸因為有一些行為他的言論是跟商業合作之外還有條件的或者是跟有一些組織合作的原來我們對這個都非常的不想去了解現在看這個情況我們想要去了解然後或者他已經取得大陸身份的我們會把這些意見提供給陸委會列在一個"},{"start":16385.579,"end":16412.639,"text":"他們本來就有一個管理辦法就是說台灣藝人到中國大陸要注意什麼那文化部會加這幾條跟他們一起討論好 那我具體來問部長好了在這個去年的十月中國的聯合力艦的演習在軍演的期間就有一些藝人轉發台灣自古就是中國的領土然後這是有蠻多藝人就跟著這個中國在軍演期間就轉發這是央視的"},{"start":16414.56,"end":16435.386,"text":"然後在今年的3月呢 中國的外交部長王毅他說 中國台灣省 把台灣列入這個中國的部分中國台灣省 我們有很多藝人呢 也轉貼了台灣閉歸的貼文那請問一下 那這個有符合這一個相關的規定那是不是要提供給陸委會來做查處咧"},{"start":16437.148,"end":16446.01,"text":"我每次聽到說台灣屬於中國的一部分這句話我其實每次都心裡覺得好難過是因為八千年前 冰河時期"},{"start":16447.874,"end":16475.316,"text":"兩邊還會相通動物植物相通八千年後的併合漸漸融化之後台灣從來沒有屬於過中國的版圖那當他們發出這樣言論的時候我其實也非常難過因為這些人都是台灣的環境中所培養出來的一些自由泥土中長大的但是他們配合央視啊配合軍演啊所以我們會去了解這些言論有沒有觸及到兩岸人民條例因為我們畢竟是一個法治的國家"},{"start":16477.737,"end":16500.051,"text":"按照你們現在的做法就是把這些藝人相關的言論把它收集完之後然後再按照兩岸人民關係條例由陸委會來做處理嗎是不是我想我們會配合他一起來了解甚至於多了解一些他言論的背後是不是有計劃的而且是有拿到錢的而且不是一個普通商業行為的而且不只是一個"},{"start":16502.193,"end":16511.349,"text":"所以我剛剛講的那些具體的例子那部長您的看法如何有沒有違反到這一個在台灣的藝人應該講的一些言論"},{"start":16516.069,"end":16539.173,"text":"因為我們兩岸人民條例裡面有一個非常具體的三十三之一條所以您剛才問我的問題 我們還是要回到法律層面去檢視那這點我們會跟陸委會就是三十三之一條嘛 還有講得很清楚不得與中共黨政軍從事任何形式的合作行為嘛所以我剛才特別是提到說軍演 提到央視 講到國防部 講到外交部嘛"},{"start":16540.185,"end":16567.696,"text":"他們這些在中國的台灣藝人是等於是配合他們的黨政軍來從事這一些複合的言論嘛所以我的意思是說既然賴總統已經有這一個因應策略下去那這些也是跟文化部有相關的那我想這個文化部這邊可能還要再更積極一點好那再請教最後一點時間部長知道說這一個前台灣八旗出版社的總編輯複查李言鶴"},{"start":16570.197,"end":16583.791,"text":"他因為所謂的煽動分裂國家罪被中共抓起來 也判了三年他煽動了分裂國家什麼罪"},{"start":16586.294,"end":16603.951,"text":"他是一個中配 他在台灣 然後他出版了一些書那這些書可能不是中共所喜歡的 可能不符合這個中國現在的這個史觀然後呢 就被 因為他要回去註銷他的這個中國身份證 那就被抓起來了那我請教一下 部長 你就知道這件事情"},{"start":16605.024,"end":16628.26,"text":"不但知道那時候沒有聲援那對於他現在 因為他是在台灣喔 他不是說在中國那如果在中國他出版什麼書 被中國抓起來了 那可能中國有法律他是在台灣耶 他是在台灣 他出版了這些書那如果說因為在台灣出版這些書 回到中國就被抓起來了那不代表說中國這個長臂管轄權就深入到台灣來了嗎"},{"start":16629.221,"end":16642.29,"text":"那以後台灣的文化人、出版人所有台灣的藝文界人士甚至包含現在有拍一些支持大罷免的藝文界人士這些導演會不會到了中國之後就被抓起來"},{"start":16644.878,"end":16664.547,"text":"我覺得你說就是最可怕的地方就是他變成是一個殘弊管理你不見得是要在中國然後他這樣的方式就是讓你一直讓你恐嚇你你不能有這個言論那明明台灣是一個言論最自由的國家可是偏偏他連這個他都要干預"},{"start":16666.044,"end":16691.662,"text":"所以複雜被抓到 這件事情大家都不敢想像他可以用這個旅遊抓他那接下來呢 接下來這樣會不會影響到說兩岸的這一個文化的交流就是 你知道台灣人 因為這樣子有可能我在台灣 我出版了什麼書我在台灣發表什麼樣的言論甚至我這次大罷免我去台灣 我去中國就可能被抓起來啦我就被舉報啦 有沒有可能"},{"start":16692.967,"end":16701.04,"text":"當然是有可能啦那文化部未來要怎麼做咧文化部會不斷的提醒這個去中國的不管是"},{"start":16702.631,"end":16723.402,"text":"除了台商之外我們跟文化有關的藝人或者是藝術家去中國的話我們會跟他講一些提醒他一些像剛才講到的這些問題我們盡量做到提醒我是希望說剛賴總統提到的這些因應的策略文化部應該是要更積極來做處理關於這個複查這部分的話很明顯他的長臂管轄權已經升到台灣了已經試圖影響"},{"start":16729.986,"end":16752.042,"text":"台灣的言論自由 出版自由了我覺得這部分要請文化部要多加關心跟注意一下是是是謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝好 謝謝李昆城委員部長請回接下來請林倩琦委員林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在我們請蔡義瑜委員"},{"start":16762.366,"end":16767.887,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是有請文化部我們李部長好 有請李部長蔡委員你好部長 我要延續 我很故意來這裡質詢我要說台灣IP的事情我記得我認為台灣有很多元素都可以做成很好的IP"},{"start":16788.012,"end":16808.717,"text":"不然感覺起來就是大家都一直在覺得說好像台灣都缺少了一些故事一些比較壯大的故事然後可以把它做一些惡創把它成功事實上部長你本身你就是一個很棒的一個作家你的作品事實上非常的多你也寫過很多的一些故事小說"},{"start":16809.577,"end":16819.923,"text":"甚至你對電影這一塊,你也是你的專業所以我想要跟部長,我就用短短的時間,我跟你們分享台灣有一個很精彩的故事呢部長你覺得要插牽這個人?蔡謙蔡謙他是台灣一個很有名的海盜他叫做威海鎮...威海鎮武王"},{"start":16835.169,"end":16843.219,"text":"叫做鎮海威武王啦 鎮海威武王啊這個威武王的我們現在的年輕人 過去的年輕人啊在那裡哭 哭啊都哭不停的 過去大人就在那裡說"},{"start":16851.748,"end":16855.554,"text":"你如果在考,我們就要叫柴犬在你抓他啦所以意思是說,這個人這裡有啦事實上他就是一個海盜在清朝嘉慶年間他就是一個很強的海盜這個海盜怎麼強的就是說,他這樣"},{"start":16870.953,"end":16895.822,"text":"整個當時整個海域打遍天下無敵手跟香港的一個叫做張寶的也是海盜他們就結盟所以那時候整個青條政府這樣吃頭痛吃頭痛所以這個青條政府就要抓錢抓錢就要由台灣來做這個基地所以它是一個海賊一個海盜的故事它都不是這樣而已"},{"start":16897.242,"end":16901.208,"text":"他就這樣,不然我現在要講這個故事的精彩啊阿柴騙誰都會這麼強,是因為有一個他太太,他太太喔,我們都叫柴騙媽"},{"start":16908.167,"end":16911.89,"text":"那他太太是怎樣?他太太之前有結婚,兩次,兩個女兒,但是他太太算是比較風流的,女兒都關不住,每天都走外面,所以有一次娶娶,說去剃頭的時候,去剃頭的時候,我看見他這個娶娶媽,他抓到那個娶娶媽的女兒說,不然這個看多少錢,我讓你,讓我來做忙,他就把娶娶媽抓走,"},{"start":16938.348,"end":16940.331,"text":"這個刷券罵有夠厲害 刷券所有的贈金都一直在他手裡贈贈到 請到派出他們的大將軍 叫做李長庚這個李長庚就是去給刷券罵 用刨刨一千塊錢"},{"start":16956.691,"end":16966.575,"text":"就用串起馬 所以串起馬真的會贏 不然在那一陣子 串起馬也是串起李長江的部隊 也是定義師在那然後蔡謙的勢力就沒落 沒落之後就出現一個叫做王德路然後他就狡肥把蔡謙的這個海盜集團 把他殲滅了"},{"start":16978.763,"end":16986.788,"text":"我現在要補充說 來喔剛才我說的都是故事所以現在這個IPA的意思就是說我們家裡有一個地方叫做太保太保就是因為王德祿絞肥有功加封為太子太保所以我們有一個地方叫做太保我們家裡有一個地方叫做五國這個五國就是創建了一個部下叫做蔡敖谷"},{"start":17007.608,"end":17020.634,"text":"他當時在山邊的時候 他就滅在當朝的牛角所以我們現在敖谷一直有人家說它就是一個海盜村再來我們在當朝三帝族好人宮我們有去拜一尊大炮那個廟宇的一個神像 他的意象就是那一尊大炮這尊大炮就是東尼闖起馬俗殊榮的大炮"},{"start":17036.778,"end":17038.741,"text":"所以你如果想要這裡過時 都台灣的過時喔所以台灣怎麼會說我們沒有很壯闊的一個歷史"},{"start":17044.594,"end":17069.644,"text":"所以我為了部長說的就是說有這麼好的歷史事實上我們文化部就是要發掘像這樣的一個故事那我們去輔導要把這些東西精彩起來精彩起來期待有很多會創造的人就去把它畫成動漫也好把它寫成故事也好這些東西出來了我們就可以讓台灣有自己的IP"},{"start":17070.484,"end":17075.888,"text":"尤其我看到現在,你看美國現在的本宮紅襪隊紅襪隊現在和One Piece,日本的海賊王他們做結盟,現在紅襪隊都用海賊王的角色然後來做他們整個隊,整個紅襪他們的一個行銷"},{"start":17093.883,"end":17101.495,"text":"人就在海裡吃所以有這些IP自然就可以把這些創作發揮到極致什麼東西都可以有集團部長我講這麼多你就短短的講我覺得說這件事我們文化部可以來做"},{"start":17108.625,"end":17128.204,"text":"剛才說的事情很讚台灣的有些地名地名的背後一個故事還有台灣的王爺的信仰剛才你說的大航海時代的海盜我現在想說用漫畫鮮畫可能最快然後再進一步可能可以文學創作拍電影電視拜拜"},{"start":17130.046,"end":17135.13,"text":"我來補充一下,有時候要說都沒辦法說得很清楚馬祖有一個天后宮,那個天后宮,馬祖人都知道,就是划拳馬關子去一個馬祖廟,划拳馬就在那裡,他知道要去廟,就叫那些新人來嫁夫廟,這樣你聽到嗎?所以划拳馬就在那裡,會有官吏,會有政經,還會有划拳打得很強的"},{"start":17159.994,"end":17178.303,"text":"阿炒雞肉叫什麼名字不知道 只知道他生的爐不知道是什麼名字 真不懂 因為我們台灣這個故事我們沒有去發掘 沒有去深挖哇 好多東西我們都不知道 太可惜了好不好 部長 我們一起來努力謝謝 會好 謝謝 好謝謝 蔡宇委員 謝謝部長請回 好 我們接下來請葉元芝委員"},{"start":17196.237,"end":17199.659,"text":"你好 請文化部長好 有請部長廖委員你好部長好 我跟你請教一下這個跟你請教一下國立台灣歷史博物館的問題因為我看到業務報告也說台灣歷史博物館要擴建嘛那台灣歷史博物館它的主要的設立的宗旨呢是文化部要辦理台灣歷史與民俗文化相關"},{"start":17226.275,"end":17250.944,"text":"文物史料的收集整理保存跟研究而且要展示跟推廣教育剛剛有提到說你們業務報告裡面也有講說現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫114年如果能夠獲行這份核定預計119年完工開放營域要成為世界認識台灣的首要窗口所以他的目標是很宏大的是首要窗口就是說"},{"start":17251.964,"end":17270.93,"text":"除了台灣之外其他國家想要認識台灣都可以透過我們的國立台灣歷史博物館這個國立台灣歷史博物館非常重要那我就就幾個面向來跟這個部長討論第一個我想問我們在國立台灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面我們有看到"},{"start":17273.238,"end":17287.279,"text":"這個范雲他在2016年競選的文宣當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃馨提了三個問題說你為什麼都不回答然後這個文宣呢"},{"start":17288.52,"end":17310.009,"text":"這個當然描述上是非常的用正面的語氣啦說文宣正面質問對手國民黨江乃馨任立委是做的總統決定背後呢論述人民為何應該要投給范雲並有小野於蔣勳為其背書我有提到部長我想問一下這個為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西他的考慮是什麼"},{"start":17311.311,"end":17339.906,"text":"你剛才講這一段我並不知道但是也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個我覺得也不是啦但是據我了解我是問說那現在因為我們這個東西是世界認識台灣的首要創作我想它很簡單就是台灣從戒嚴以後走入民主那個民主運動是一個蠻重要的那個過程然後范雲假如各位沒有忘記的話當年是野百合"},{"start":17340.626,"end":17360.912,"text":"的領袖他是在野百合佔領這個中正紀念堂的領袖所以他後來出來從政他的歷史後來前面被國民黨監視的歷史所以你的意思是說因為范雲特別重要啦所以就有點藏了他的文宣去質問蔣乃馨 而且是2016年他的第一次選舉那我們來看下一個"},{"start":17366.654,"end":17381.041,"text":"這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣那我想請教一下因為這個文宣你們在歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份那為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份"},{"start":17383.309,"end":17403.659,"text":"為什麼會典藏兩份目的是什麼這點你也不清楚我必須承認我不知道不知道那今天文化部有沒有有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下今天我們有代表來委員好我是台灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩華那我們的這些文物其實我們有因應選舉的話去進行當代的收藏"},{"start":17404.179,"end":17427.392,"text":"那就是在經過一個委員的搜審過程來確認這些文物是否入場那有些文物他可能會他的背後可能有他不同的一個脈絡所以這個部分有兩份的部分我可以再做確認然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告所以你也不曉得嘛但是他就是有兩份啊他就有兩份好我們進去看因為我看了蠻多的好這個是蔡英文點亮台灣總統競選宣傳期"},{"start":17429.853,"end":17450.028,"text":"有兩隻那我這個部分是想請教一下文物你們收藏之後會說要保存嘛那保存會維護嗎比如說那個棋子如果說有破損那就是讓他繼續破損還是說你們其實是有編人力資品維護人力去修復狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":17452.401,"end":17476.6,"text":"我想用我的經驗來看它這是跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法就是譬如說部長我時間有限你直接回答我問題就好因為我現在是問說因為這個東西很重要嘛它是世界認識台灣的首要窗口啊所以我們當然保存東西要好好保存我現在只是問我的問題很簡單就是說它如果有破損會不會有修復"},{"start":17478.021,"end":17497.138,"text":"當然要修復有會修復因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了這個我問你一個問題像我去拜訪林義雄他是一個受害者欸這不是你在質詢我啦我的問題很簡單嘛問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料全部是記卷的棋子部長部長不要岔題啦我問的是說"},{"start":17500,"end":17522.92,"text":"因為我的問題很簡單部長我到現在為止都沒有在我只是在詢問我想知道說保存我沒有說不能保存這個我現在只是問說保存這個有沒有修復機制你不要防禦心這麼強我當然小心我只是問有沒有修復機制因為這個歷史博物館是認識台灣首要窗口"},{"start":17523.661,"end":17542.151,"text":"我沒有不讓你做這個事我是問說你有沒有好好保存當然要好好保存要保存嘛 對吧那所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情後面那位多少人留言 對啊比如說織品如果有損壞或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞或什麼你們現在的編制修復的人力是怎樣"},{"start":17542.851,"end":17570.502,"text":"跟我們報告那由於整個編制的問題那台時博目前有兩位修復師那我們就是文物進場之前會先進行整治那這部分會委外來進行委外那個專業的廠商來進行委外來進行就對了是用委外的方式那我們內部有兩位修復師兩位修復師他是修復哪一類的因為不同文物會有不同的修復技巧有一位是以紙質為主然後一位是以木質為主然後其他就委外嘛好下一頁他們也都熟"},{"start":17570.962,"end":17589.534,"text":"下一頁這個聯合報一樣這個聯合報它的頭版2012年的1月10號也是典藏兩份這個問題剛剛沒有辦法回答因為你不知道為什麼有的是典藏兩份以上但是這個聯合報的典藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長第一個"},{"start":17590.848,"end":17617.734,"text":"他這邊在這個文物的描述的部分特別提到主要經營人是承認中國國民黨中央常務委員的王剃無另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員的李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動那當然你們的講法一定會是說對啊他就是客觀描述啊他的確是創辦人是誰啊然後他的確這個有退報運動可是我這邊好奇的是"},{"start":17619.546,"end":17634.632,"text":"聯合報實際上他退報運動總共有三次我們來看一下不是只有那一次李瑞環的比如說1960年他們因為挺雷震堅守第四權所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅軍方發起退報運動但是聯合報仍貫徹正派辦報"},{"start":17641.048,"end":17661.102,"text":"就是說他退報其實有好幾次但是你們在文物的描述我們看上一頁文物的描述上專門把這個他1992年刊載中共中央政治局常委李瑞環談話引發退報就把它寫在那邊好像聯合報就只有這一支退報運動而且他還是因為刊載了中共的言論的關係被退報"},{"start":17662.216,"end":17686.937,"text":"我覺得是有偏頗啦這是第一個問題 等一下一起回答第二個問題是因為這個歷史博物館他可以把典藏的文物做授權嘛那現在你典藏了聯合報的的這個報紙那人家也可以來取得授權可是理論上來講聯合報的東西應該是屬於他個人的智慧財產權啊那歷史博物館為什麼會可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢 兩個問題"},{"start":17694.194,"end":17715.707,"text":"跟委員報告就是說有關文物的部分我們會就當下那個研究員他們就會去做相關的資料的一個手整然後經過審議委員來做確認內容那如果說這個內容他因為當時候的內容如果不是很就是完整的話他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理那如果說未來我們再進行更深入的研究的時候我們會再把相關的詮釋資料來進行補助"},{"start":17717.874,"end":17731.801,"text":"你現在你是下面對聯合報做敘述啦其實你這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身那個文物本身是2012年的1月10號的內容嘛但是你現在下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述"},{"start":17733.061,"end":17759.656,"text":"那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊 堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報 我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好 歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗 這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦"},{"start":17760.276,"end":17762.463,"text":"那這可以吧好 謝謝委員部長你認同嗎是部長"},{"start":17766.584,"end":17771.688,"text":"我不但認同還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解如果就歷史來講這三個時間都對我們會把它補起來而且你要知道嗎你把它補起來之後就會知道台灣的當初戒嚴是報競聯合報中國時報可以賣到一百萬份後來漸漸報競開放之後報紙變很多之後它的賣量變少因為我持續時間有時間你講故事都講太久其實我很喜歡聽有一天"},{"start":17794.884,"end":17820.422,"text":"比如說我們可以請你喝個下午茶你慢慢講給我聽但是因為我們資訊時間很有限啦我們就針對重點好不好那所以這個部分你們認同嗎不能有偏頗啦好不好第二個授權的部分為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢跟我們報告如果說那個出授權的原始人還是存去的話我們不會主動做這個授權我們只有做物的比如說要借展才會有授權那這個部分如果說它是涉及內容的引用的話都還是要回到原來比如說"},{"start":17821.483,"end":17839.384,"text":"所以如果有智慧財產權你們不會做授權好不好這是你講的再來還有這個是民進黨這個建黨週年紀念表總共典藏了七支你看有登錄七個登錄號為什麼這個表是特別厲害還是怎樣我是好奇啦就是典藏了七支是為什麼"},{"start":17841.363,"end":17870.744,"text":"跟委員報告好我現在沒有在質疑說你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西沒有喔我現在只是好奇說這個錶是不是厲害的地方在哪裡典藏了七支海史博它是新往近成立的一個博物館那我們有在積極地進行當代的收藏那很多其實是民間的一個捐贈那我們這邊的話其實會先就捐贈的物件先做一些初步的一個審議那這個部分我也是需要再做確認就是說也許它因為剛才有報告就是說每個文物它其實有不同的一個脈絡跟後面的一些"},{"start":17871.084,"end":17896.867,"text":"所以我必須要再確認一下說當初這個路你再確認好不好看起來乍看之下你也覺得很怪但是我不為難你啦你再去確認那一個東西好然後再來就是我覺得這個歷史播放好像對於這個選舉的東西特別有興趣連那個2000年沉水扁的礦泉水都有典藏然後還有宣傳手機架鑰匙圈旗子布條等等這些東西"},{"start":17898.845,"end":17926.011,"text":"這個選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品因為我你到時候一起一併說明沒有沒有好先一併說明各位國民報告就是因應整個現在世界的潮流就是當代議題的一個收藏包括這些選舉或是像疫情這些等等都是會有一個初步的收藏那我們現在管內有制定一個相關的就是一個分流的制度當代典藏跟因為當初剛開始的時候制度還不完善你說剛開始的時候因為人家只要捐贈你就收是不是"},{"start":17926.291,"end":17948.832,"text":"我們還是有經過審議那當時候因為有一開始的話經過審議那會納入的文物但是我們現在我們現在就問說這個審議為什麼會這樣啊它的標準是什麼啊對就是其實我們是因應整個世紀潮流現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代收藏OKOK好那繼續但你剛剛講說那都很重要嘛像剛剛那個部長講說泛雲為什麼會被收藏因為他太重要了"},{"start":17949.292,"end":17965.212,"text":"那我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也蠻重要吧可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞韓國瑜跟柯文哲就沒有任何的文物典藏他的一個旗子他的一個面子或他的一個什麼小物就通通都沒有啊所以這標準很怪啊"},{"start":17966.617,"end":17979.997,"text":"這標準很怪啊跟委員報告就是這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈那所以其實民間如果捐贈那我們經過收審之後所以意思是說因為韓粉跟喝粉沒有去捐贈所以沒有"},{"start":17980.987,"end":17991.712,"text":"然後只要有捐贈不管你捐贈一隻兩隻三隻四隻甚至七隻你都收我本來是有經過嚴謹的一個搜索嚴謹那為什麼要七隻你還是回答不出來了我認為應該是說有捐贈還是要做一個篩選啦好不好好那再來"},{"start":18001.65,"end":18015.259,"text":"那剛剛那個問題剛剛如果說你剛剛沒有辦法回答的麻煩寫一個針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我最後很快啦因為這個部長應該知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情那本來我去年是有提案"},{"start":18015.899,"end":18031.265,"text":"因為打荒的辦公室我認為成效不彰啦他那個時候只有才拔了七十幾件變了兩千多萬只有才拔七十幾件覺得成效不彰反正要提案刪除但後來因為你們也有溝通嘛覺得會好好做這個事情所以我們也沒有那個預算沒有處理但是網路上就在帶風向"},{"start":18032.365,"end":18052.516,"text":"說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛說什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票就大家來找我我覺得這個台灣這個網路實在是太誇張了完全沒有就事論事空間從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算認為這個導黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效那現在最新的資料是說才發了145件那部長你自己滿意嗎"},{"start":18057.591,"end":18070.324,"text":"我說不算滿意或者不滿意因為環遊的問題大家都知道在文創法裡面我們沒有直接可以限制票的買賣我們唯一做的就是"},{"start":18071.829,"end":18085.84,"text":"在最近做了一件比較有進步的事情就是約這六都的負責大場館的這種的人來開會希望他們在辦法上鼓勵實名制那這效果非常好文化部會補助經費"},{"start":18088.286,"end":18113.922,"text":"補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體結果效果果然環流就下降像這種就是一個我們在法律上沒有不准他用這種方式販售環流的一個法我們只能用去檢舉那你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複檢舉到之後我們整理完叫警政單位去抓他這個過程是很繁複的"},{"start":18114.682,"end":18139.159,"text":"那對於一個文化部來講 他去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的好 那個部長 這個加油啦 好不好大家都很對黃牛深惡痛絕啦而且預算給你們的 我覺得就要不是說發包出去啦 還是要盯一下啦希望他們可以積極的把黃牛的杜絕 好不好讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員"},{"start":18143.783,"end":18165.477,"text":"好 部長請回我們接下來請邱志偉 邱志偉委員 邱志偉不在陳培宇委員 陳培宇委員不在我們請廖先祥 廖先祥委員不在我們請張家俊 張家俊委員不在我們請鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在我們請蘇清泉"},{"start":18170.96,"end":18196.191,"text":"蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請賴慧園賴慧園賴慧園委員不在我們請鄭振淺鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在我們請張啟凱張啟凱張啟凱委員不在今天登記質詢均已發言完畢另有林倩琦委員徐新穎委員陳培育委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議如坐如下決定"},{"start":18197.592,"end":18214.724,"text":"報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報關於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"159664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159664","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9003a3a2b34b4acbadb45ef9dc13f1f7f821f25d2de176b75bce3ceebef6e54c8ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:53:19 - 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謝謝主席 現在各位官員 各位我們學者那其實在立法院我們可能討論的是可能會從最高的國家的政策開始討論然後再依照各個部會 各個委員會再去分享的大家一來討論各項的一個社會的問題那我當然還是希望說我們每一個部會 每一個政策推出來的時候如果說我們能夠"},{"start":29.295,"end":37.038,"text":"把它的效果放到更大可以除了我們原本政策設定的目標的問題解決之外如果這個政策還能夠更廣泛的發酵到其他的國家問題的話那我想這個政策它會更有的意義那剛剛從政策以及我們學者老師講的"},{"start":47.822,"end":72.641,"text":"在我們的社會住宅的設立上面有一個很重要的一個觀念就是去標籤化那混居的一個議題這部分我當然很認同那只是說我跟內政部之前有點摩擦只是說大家這個混居的意義是這一棟混居而已還是這個範圍整個範圍要混居意見不一樣但不是今天的主題那只是說我認同混居的這個政策所以在混居的政策認同下去的時候我們就討論單獨這一棟的時候"},{"start":75.743,"end":81.169,"text":"今天討論一個比例到底要幾%那這幾%之後會有其他混區的這個社會的民眾那其他的社會民眾除了弱勢以外的其他民眾誰有這個資格進到我們的社會住宅也是我今天可能想要發言的一個重點"},{"start":91.141,"end":111.891,"text":"包括今天的公聽會第三點也有提到說我們的這個學生要不要納進去我們都希望這個社宅賦予他更多的一個社會的一個責任那我個人的觀點除了今天討論的這三點之外我還會建議說是不是能夠納入兩點的一個部分在混居的範圍之內第一點也是我們內部政部的一個政策就是我們的這個"},{"start":115.293,"end":132.368,"text":"這個都市更新這種類別都市更新或者是市地重劃或者是區段徵收這種類別我們常常會因為都市更新的原住戶或者是這個區段徵收或者是這個重劃裡面的原住戶的這個安簽這個給他移居的一個問題常常是我推"},{"start":133.129,"end":154.946,"text":"拖累我們進度政策進程的一個很大的一個部分如果在這個部分因為譬如像我們的區徵跟這個重劃的時候我們現在都有要求希望保留一定的比例譬如說3% 5%未來在這個範圍內做區段徵收這個社會住宅的比例那我們在這3% 5%之內我們是不是能夠留一些在弱勢保障完了之後"},{"start":155.566,"end":160.109,"text":"混聚的部分讓原範圍內需要安置的民眾他也有優先安置的權利那一部分我們可以推動如果說這個政策能夠上路能夠有效的話他或許可以縮短我們在區段徵收或這個重劃的時候他所需要的一個時間我們可能原本"},{"start":175.898,"end":194.403,"text":"規劃個三百戶五百戶在裡面但是我們因為溝通多花了三年五年但是我們可以提前提前的讓這個政策完成我們也可以更早的讓我們其他除了安置戶以外的民眾也能夠進到我們的社會住宅所以說我覺得在討論政策的時候時間性也是一個很重要的重點如果說我們能夠透過社會住宅讓相關的都更或者區段徵收重劃的這些需要安置的民眾有優先簽進去的一個權利的話"},{"start":202.845,"end":221.749,"text":"那我覺得這個可以讓我們社會住宅的一個效益能夠更擴大那另外一個除了我們自己可能承擔內政部的一個政策之外我們還有許多的國家公共工程需要透過徵收的方式或者是其他的方式比如說原本是租的嘛那我們解除租約其實當然在法定上我們國家都站得住腳但是因為我們國家也非常注重人民居住的權益我們總是希望說一件事情能夠圓滿"},{"start":229.631,"end":244.028,"text":"讓他們能夠安簽到一個大家都可以接受的地方讓事情圓滿才是最重要而不是什麼事情都是用法律戰來把這個當作執行政策一個必要的手段所以說我知道譬如說在南部最近好像有一個應該是園區之類的一個開發計畫"},{"start":248.493,"end":277.246,"text":"他可能也有一個遷出那個計畫那或者包括每個選區或許比如說我們在慶德總統的一個這個台南鐵道的一個遷移也牽涉到我們民眾的一個遷居如果說我們能夠多了一個疏通的管道讓我們國家在執行公共政策的時候能夠讓這些需要安置的一個民眾他也能夠優先的來到我們的社會住宅居住的話在不排擠不排擠我們的這個弱勢戶的比例的情況下或許我們也可以把這一項需要"},{"start":278.126,"end":297.127,"text":"的安置的民眾也納進去我想這個就是除了我們社會住宅這個原本的政策的一個框架之內然後我們可以去服務讓我們的國家的其他的政策能夠推展的更加順利來提高我們整體的一個公共政策一個執行的比例這就是我一個個人的一個潛見也給大家參考以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9006daac64dae5efcc345ef9dc13f1f7f821f25d2de176b75bc5347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:14:46 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":611.596,"end":640.31,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":692.483,"end":692.583,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":753.899,"end":760.913,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"},{"start":888.053,"end":888.338,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1127.547,"end":1127.688,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1577.509,"end":1579.243,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1753.599,"end":1753.803,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1808.656,"end":1809.77,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1854.636,"end":1874.128,"text":"好繼續開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員 農業部部長內政部首長財政部首長行政院主計總署首長就農村發展總體檢討及如何提升鄉村城鄉發展任性之規劃方向進行報告並被質詢宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1876.755,"end":1898.227,"text":"本日議程排定鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向進行報告並備質詢我們先介紹在場的列席機關首長那首先有我們國家發展委員會我們的副主任委員彭麗珮彭副主委好 謝謝還有我們行政院國家發展"},{"start":1904.269,"end":1927.428,"text":"基金管理會副執行秘書施明山好你好我們農業部政務次長胡忠一胡次長好還有我們內政部國土管理署我們副署長徐彥興徐副署長"},{"start":1929.179,"end":1949.168,"text":"以及我們農村發展及水土保持署副署長蘇茂祥 蘇副署長還有我們財政部的國有財產署副署長李正宗行政院主計總署基金管預算處處長黃淑娟好有"},{"start":1958.612,"end":1964.544,"text":"好那我們是不是先請國家發展委員會彭麗珮副主委進行報告"},{"start":1978.58,"end":1995.085,"text":"主席 各位委員先敬大家早感謝委員會今天安排鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展任性之規劃方向專案報告以下請就本會辦理情形報告如下 敬請支持"},{"start":1996.005,"end":2004.068,"text":"首先為落實賴總統均衡台灣的施政方針同時因應國際經貿情勢以及我國產業數位近鄰雙軸轉型的發展趨勢本會結合相關部會共同規劃六大區域產業及生活圈以國家整體觀點推動產業發展及"},{"start":2018.004,"end":2046.238,"text":"公共建設均衡佈局六大區域產業及生活圈規劃內容已於113年12月12日提報行政院經濟發展委員會第三次會議討論通過經過全面盤點各地方在地特色及資源規劃北北基宜為首都圈黃金狼帶桃竹苗為桃竹苗大細股中張投雲將推動成為精密智慧新核心張南"},{"start":2049.452,"end":2065.709,"text":"嘉南高坪以大南方新矽谷推動宜花東屏南則朝東部漫火城鄉發展金馬鵬發展為低碳熱火離島等並將在全國各縣市推動包括軌道公路"},{"start":2067.617,"end":2084.369,"text":"醫療、居住、農業、水資源、文化、觀光等超過152項重要建設配合六大區域產業發展中央將攜手地方政府完善周邊九大生活機能生態圈推動包括供水供電"},{"start":2085.169,"end":2112.329,"text":"居住教育医疗文化交通旅宿生活购物及净零废弃物等配套措施及基础建设持续带动更多的在地就业机会提升员工薪资所得让国人都能够共享经济发展的成果并连带提高国家的人均GDP有效缩小城乡与贫富差距加速区域平衡发展"},{"start":2113.149,"end":2119.479,"text":"提升國家整體競爭力確實達成徵就業提薪資繁地方的三個目標"},{"start":2121.4,"end":2142.976,"text":"其次為立各縣市政府提出因地制宜且具有任性的法定鄉村空間計劃內政部將鄉村地區整體規劃納入國土計劃法規範1114年1月20日公告之修正之國土計劃法第八條第三項規定直轄市縣市主管機關擬定直轄市縣市國土計劃時"},{"start":2144.677,"end":2170.094,"text":"得辦理鄉村地區整體規劃並是實際需要研擬鄉村地區計劃納入直轄市縣市國土計劃並得另以覆測方式定之內政部為協助直轄市縣市政府推動鄉村地區整體規劃作業透過依法設置的國土永續發展基金以分別於110年至113年補助直轄市縣市政府辦理鄉村地區整體規劃作業經費待鄉村地區整體規劃完成後"},{"start":2174.797,"end":2188.189,"text":"得據以進一步轉化研擬鄉村地區計畫依照審議程序納入直轄市縣市國土計畫制定因地制宜的空間計畫或土地使用管制最後"},{"start":2189.417,"end":2218.423,"text":"推動城鄉及區域均衡發展為長期之工作本會將持續會同相關部會積極推動並且透過六大區域產業及生活圈規劃國土計畫及鄉村地區整體規劃進行縣市合作跨域之規劃整合部會資源投入關鍵公共建設以均衡城鄉發展並得以減緩偏鄉的人口外流以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2224.401,"end":2231.25,"text":"好謝謝我們副主委很精彩的報告來下一位我們請農業部胡中醫次長進行報告來請次長還有我們科學委員"},{"start":2241.127,"end":2264.028,"text":"在今天我們本部就國土計劃法修正展連後之政策因應作為及如何提升城鄉發展任性之規劃方向提出專案報告願針對本部擬推動之政策因應作為進行說明敬請各位委員不定時交首先國土計劃法經大院在去年12月31日刪除通過"},{"start":2266.211,"end":2281.72,"text":"將直轄市縣市國土功能分區圖公告期限延後6年經查截至3月24日除了南投縣之外21個直轄市縣市政府均將國土功能分區圖報請內政部國土計畫審議委員會審查審議"},{"start":2286.653,"end":2301.001,"text":"本部亦積極參與各級國土計畫審議會表達本部立場引導各職轄市縣市政府合理化設農業發展地區與維護國人糧食安全保障農民權益"},{"start":2303.284,"end":2319.857,"text":"農業部後續處理規劃第一點我們將配合省市農業發展地區分類劃設條件針對直轄市縣市政府提報內政部省域之國土功能分區圖本部系依現行全國國土計畫及各直轄市"},{"start":2320.918,"end":2347.637,"text":"縣市國土計畫指導提供審查意見然直轄市縣市政府功能分區圖公開展覽及公聽會辦理期間就農業發展地區各分類例如農一農二化設條件所提出因地質疑方式及各界所提出的爭議問題本部將嚴厲納入農地品質程度高低例如灌溉能力等等"},{"start":2350.576,"end":2371.364,"text":"農產業價值鏈等發展需求等因素提出分類合理化設因應做法以落實國土空間合理配置第二點我們將因應國土計劃法管制體系原理農業部主管法規修正作業那目前我們已經修正"},{"start":2373.919,"end":2379.944,"text":"本部主管的農業發展條例、山坡地保育利用條例、水土保持法、森林法等相關法規"},{"start":2381.107,"end":2405.853,"text":"那第三點我們將確立農業施政資源投入範圍以農業發展地區為原則那由於農業發展地區是以農業生產環境維持糧食安全功能及曾經投資建設重大農業改良設施進行發射並按農地生產資源條件予以分類所以本部農業設施資源應以達成扶植農產業永續及農村發展為目標"},{"start":2411.604,"end":2430.07,"text":"自應已投入農業發展地區的原則對於既有施政資源投入農業發展地區以外者將應應國土規劃原則規劃或建立退場機制此外本部將依農業發展條例第八條規定輔導直轄市縣市農業主管機關擬定農地利用總和規劃計畫引導農村合理發展促進農地資源永續利用與發展"},{"start":2439.033,"end":2452.747,"text":"第四我們將強化農村規劃策略首先我們將全面檢討農村整體規劃建構層級式規劃體系本年度起輔導縣市政府修正縣市農村再生總體計畫"},{"start":2454.529,"end":2474.509,"text":"執行農村再生計畫引導農地明智利用集中投入農業輔導資源其次備套修正農村再生條例及農村及農地管理相關法規完整農村再生法規體系及農地管理相關規定第三"},{"start":2476.331,"end":2500.593,"text":"針對農業發展地區第四類及其附近地區將推動農村再生相關計畫研擬農村規劃空間及土地使用計畫促進農村活化與產業創新加強農村基礎建設及服務提升農村生活品質發揮農村、農地及農業整體之多元價值打造韌性、安心、永續發展之農村"},{"start":2501.394,"end":2530.221,"text":"最後國土計畫法帶來的影響不僅是土地使用管制重大變革更牽動農業在整體國土空間發展方向農業部門當以農產業及農村發展引導管制之思維參與相關制度規劃結合跨部會資源共同打造農村永續發展藍圖確保農地資源及促進六級化產業發展以上報告敬請各位委員支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":2535.034,"end":2537.484,"text":"好 謝謝我們胡次長的報告"},{"start":2538.612,"end":2567.11,"text":"那我們現在還有內政部跟財政部有書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報我們現在開始進行詢答委員質詢前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時得延長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位曾聽非委員發言"},{"start":2577.337,"end":2600.778,"text":"我們請國發會好有請國發會委員長副主委好我想了解的是如果依照你們做統籌的部分那請問我們國土計畫現在延後6年那你認為我們下一步要怎麼去做"},{"start":2604.214,"end":2624.64,"text":"國土計畫當然展現了六年那目前也增列了一條就是第八條第三項那這一個部分其實蠻重要的就是鄉村地區整體規劃那有這樣的一個在鄉村地區比較上位一點的指導那個土地怎麼樣使用再訂定鄉村細部計畫"},{"start":2625.751,"end":2650.308,"text":"那這個銷售細部計畫就會落實到空間上面那不就是要把我們所有現在已經送到我們內政部這些各縣市送到內政部要再退到各縣市還是怎麼做我現在要了解的是說你認為現在不知道怎麼做那我們內政部一起上來應該是不會退對 那怎麼辦沒有 現在所有的鄉親都在"},{"start":2651.26,"end":2677.611,"text":"疑問是原本4月30號那真的很感謝就是說我們的政府有聽到地方的聲音所有的民眾本來是焦慮的現在鬆了一口氣當你今天把一塊土地然後讓他覺得說今天被劃下去之後可能未來沒有發展的空間有可能是"},{"start":2679.482,"end":2703.722,"text":"這塊地會變成無用武之地他內心的焦慮是那是他的財產是所以當我們聽到了地方的聲音我們中央也做了一些改變延後了六年好那現在民眾在問了是可是他們現在已經被送上去的這些資料尤其被畫了農醫是"},{"start":2706.055,"end":2723.383,"text":"因為農醫其實限制是最多的是 跟委員報告因為現在到各縣 據我所知待會再請副署長內政部這邊再補充據我所知因為這個分區圖它是比較接近現況的編定那這邊大概都已經編定完成了"},{"start":2723.883,"end":2746.745,"text":"那這些的分區界定好之後其實在落實上面其實各鄉村或是各鄉鎮市他們其實或是縣市政府 直轄市縣市政府對他們的空間使用其實要有一定的想法而不是說就我現況這樣子就就是所以他們可是他們的現況跟民眾是有落差的就是說今天我被畫色農醫"},{"start":2748.737,"end":2763.633,"text":"我會發射農藝之後我被限制了就是他們所得到的訊息其實是不對等的像我跟他們說其實國土計畫對你們是好的沒有一個人聽得下去因為他們已經被錯誤的訊息然後"},{"start":2764.929,"end":2782.402,"text":"放在他們腦中裡面所以現在他們所擔心的是好那麼如果在這樣的狀況之下我們有做了一個所謂的增加條款再去做整個鄉村地區的一些重新調整或規劃那這個部分"},{"start":2783.203,"end":2802.89,"text":"那他們該跟誰講因為這個案子像台南都已經送到內政部啦像農一被劃的被劃農一啊農二的被劃農二啊可是這六年當中我們要怎麼做來我們這個到底現在要問誰在做這個統籌現在是國土署在做統籌我是不是請國土署這邊來做說明"},{"start":2811.557,"end":2825.858,"text":"謝謝委員的插詢第一個委員所問的部分第一件事情是現在甚至是南投縣政府還沒有交到中央做縣市的國土計畫的最後的工程分析劃定的這部分"},{"start":2826.358,"end":2847.59,"text":"其餘的部分已經9個通過 剩下在審議中我們董事在114年2月10號的時候有拜會南投縣的縣長副署長我知道 這些是現在的過程但是我們4月30號本來要上路 現在就確定要延後6年了"},{"start":2848.21,"end":2875.298,"text":"我現在要詢問的是這延後六年的下一步我們要怎麼做當然你們是匯集所有各縣市目前的狀況好 六年會改變很多欸對不對難道你要把這一本現在各縣市然後做的這一本然後一直放放放 放到六年後再執行嗎是這樣嗎那跟現在大家的單憂有什麼不一樣還是一樣啊"},{"start":2877.745,"end":2897.966,"text":"那怎麼辦你要跟大家說下一步啊所以1月20號的部分我們除了延長的這件事情就是相規的這個制度把那個法定進去之後那我們現在相規可以做兩件事嘛一個事情是相規就可以再相規就可以去review現在的工人分區的相關部分"},{"start":2898.491,"end":2916.408,"text":"從他整體規劃的部分可以去調整所以你的意思是說可以用這個相規的部分然後由各縣市政府再去做檢討是這樣嗎在補資料上因為畢竟六年啊是不是這六年可能有很多的變動"},{"start":2917.932,"end":2936.783,"text":"那所以我可以再以相規來做調整是不是這樣子說有相規這個機制可以調整做復健然後列入到那個做復健可是問題是它裡面被化色了農藝啊什麼叫復健它就可以進一步做下一階段的調整嘛那這部分就是要先進行"},{"start":2937.463,"end":2954.572,"text":"所以我是可以我不用復建啊我做復建問題是今天我的土地都已經化為農醫了啊我用復建我到底是可以做什麼樣的一個處理不是所謂復建意思是祖文的部分是依法的相關的程序所定的祖文的計畫書的祖文"},{"start":2955.612,"end":2970.301,"text":"附的部分因為有相規這個配套機制他會放到這邊去補充去做一些相關的所以我可以用相規這個附件把我前面認為我要經由調整的我再來做一些處理之後再由附件再送上來嗎"},{"start":2971.061,"end":2997.658,"text":"對就review完整合完之後review完他該有的農地的相關的所以目前都尚未定案嘛對不對只是把各縣市的案子有送上來就只有南投還沒有其他都送上來那未來我們就可以用鄉規這一條再去做復建補強的動作對在下一階段就可以做這個做調整那什麼時候預計什麼時候可以做這樣的調整"},{"start":2999.52,"end":3014.132,"text":"我們現在主要其實是一個是在審議中的送上來的審議我們也得把它審議完第二個部分是這個南投的部分一進來之後我們也要做審議不是你審議完了現在大家擔心就是這樣你審議完的標準是什麼"},{"start":3015.404,"end":3039.4,"text":"你審議完了 那如果說今天在地方因為鄉規而有說需要調整六年耶 副署長不是六天 不是六個月這個國土計畫已經延後六年這六年你知道會發生什麼事嗎所以你現在你審議了之後是用了審議 然後再放六年嗎"},{"start":3041.489,"end":3066.195,"text":"另外一件事情其實是現在因為還沒有全部公告還沒有公告實施現在全部的功能分區嘛那這樣子的狀況之下現在還在趨近的這個審議的階段那有相規去做檢討部分就可以指導跟指導的部分你要把這個訊息給各地方政府而且你要定一個時間這六年我要再強調"},{"start":3068.104,"end":3090.204,"text":"國土計畫延後六年不是六天也不是六個月六年當中會發生什麼事情沒有人知道一個孩子出生也六歲他會改變怎樣也不知道所以你要定案之前你要定一個說到底我們要在什麼時候要做一個最後定案"},{"start":3091.537,"end":3114.983,"text":"這個部分很重要你不要去核定之後然後又叫他們補強那個又會引發人心惶惶所以我只是提醒因為4月30號是我們這一期原本要執行的可是因為延後了6年所以整個情勢都改變所以我們的時間點一定要再重新訂出SOP出來"},{"start":3117.021,"end":3136.836,"text":"提早定大家才有依循的方向否則有可能又變這一次一樣可能六年後又要再延六年你先把我們這六年準備要做的全部公布大家照著這樣的劇本來走可以嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":3139.246,"end":3161.307,"text":"好 謝謝亭飛委員事實上亭飛委員剛剛質詢就是我今天排這個議題的重點這6年應該要盤整出一個6年計畫那鄉村的這個整體規劃是要解決國土計畫法把這些地目把它分類那我們現在要讓它可以更合理化"},{"start":3162.308,"end":3184.127,"text":"讓整個鄉村是因為國土計畫法是可以連動讓鄉村發展的所以鄉村規劃既然是一個附件是一個配套那重點就是在這個配套配套沒做好以後國土計畫法還是會卡關所以這六點很重要我們也是希望整個經紀委員會必須要盯著這件事情好來我們下一位請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":3192.311,"end":3193.437,"text":"謝謝主席 楊全元發言 要請國發會"},{"start":3202.996,"end":3221.769,"text":"我們看到國土計劃法的相關配套規定不是很明確所以導致自來難行所以立法院才會在去年底三讀通過國土計劃法部分條文修正草案將原定"},{"start":3222.429,"end":3238.877,"text":"要在2025年4月30號實施的國土功能分區土公告期限延後6年到2031年以減少整個在計畫執行的衝擊以及民怨在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教副主委"},{"start":3240.157,"end":3261.829,"text":"國發會是作為我們整個國家發展總體規劃的核心單位那當前的國土計畫法的分區管制跟產業發展的需求之間仍有很多相當的一個矛盾那例如說地方政府反映部分的農業發展區域或者是特定地區的使用限制影響到經濟的發展"},{"start":3263.57,"end":3290.873,"text":"那國發會你在整個因為我們延長六年了這個時間非常的寶貴你在整個國土規劃與產業發展間你要如何的取得平衡請做說明是 跟委員報告就是我們現在已經在剛剛有報告過就是六大區域的這個我們從產業角度出發跟生活圈的角度出發我們去規劃六大的這個區域發展的一個規劃"},{"start":3292.074,"end":3318.119,"text":"那這個比較從產業面出發的就是希望把經濟部產業園區國科會的科學園區這些比較大重大的那加上我覺得目前看起來是鄉村地區其實也有一些是需要有一些農業現在農業產業不同的產業能夠一起整體考量的這樣子的一個方式呢放到這個我們大的重大的國家重大的角度"},{"start":3318.819,"end":3332.995,"text":"國家發展重大的六大建設裡面六大區域發展你講到重點國家發展重大的方向因為我們的國土是非常的珍貴要怎麼樣遞盡其力"},{"start":3334.396,"end":3348.173,"text":"這是非常的重要但是也就是在我跟您的這個題目當中也就是說我們在整個國土規劃跟產業發展要如何怎麼樣去取得平衡那這個就是國發會要必須用心好好去做規劃我們會繼續來這個"},{"start":3352.037,"end":3362.508,"text":"追蹤這樣的一個方向我們也希望達到這個均衡點那達到三全其美的一個概念一個現象那接下來我也請農業部也一起上來因為我們鑒於城鄉發展嚴重的失衡"},{"start":3368.054,"end":3374.199,"text":"嚴重失衡農村的人口外流因為基礎的建設不足導致我們整個農村經營的環境日益惡化政府在整個農地管理上採取了嚴格的保護但缺乏發展的規劃"},{"start":3390.55,"end":3406.817,"text":"導致農地雖然被限制開發但是缺乏有效的經濟活化的一個制度那如果經濟活化沒有去達成當然我們整個農村的衰退是會劇烈的那我們又看到其他國家比如像日本"},{"start":3407.637,"end":3413.144,"text":"德國他們透過了就是農村創生的這樣的一個政策結合當地的一個農業發展農村觀光跟農村的技術所以我經常說的我們台灣的農真的是我們國家的寶"},{"start":3424.016,"end":3451.003,"text":"保障我們要怎麼樣能夠讓農村的經濟跟農地保護來並行所以市長農業部你是不是要加強跟其他國家成功的這樣子具前瞻性的方案去做探討能夠達到我們真正的保護我們的農村發展我們的經濟的一個結合成功 請做說明"},{"start":3451.323,"end":3462.273,"text":"是非常感謝楊委員的關心其實我們過去啊從民國99年農災條例通過之後我們就一直在輔導目前已經輔導有2788個社區當中我們已經核定他通過的這個社區已經有"},{"start":3471.504,"end":3485.022,"text":"1084那這些社區我們每一年去做輔導不是只有產業的發展還有當地的文化保留還有綠美化以及整個讓鄉村國活化所以我們過去十幾年來已經陸續跟德國還有跟日本"},{"start":3485.462,"end":3489.605,"text":"那邊的優良農村在做交流市長你談到這裡當時我們推動的農村再生條例大家都全力以赴所以這段時間那你核准的2700多個社區現在所培根的現在所認證的大概是1084這個還有成長的空間"},{"start":3506.797,"end":3530.943,"text":"而且我們認為我們目前所做的機制我認為你必須先把你的機制再去做調整再去做調整做精進本席今天這個議題主要跟你討論的是這個方向因為如果政府在一段時間十來年了這一段時間我們再去精進跟世界各國成功的範例來做整個的結合"},{"start":3531.783,"end":3547.698,"text":"一定會達到更高的一個效率出來因為我說了你眼睛睜開怎麼樣都離開不了我們的農那這一些這麼好的資源資產我們要怎麼樣把它活化這是非常重要你去親近然後方向給本席"},{"start":3548.779,"end":3554.143,"text":"接下來我也請內政部也一併上來我要請教 農村長期面臨人口流失 設施不足農業轉型 它的確會有困難尤其現在整個軟化的這個問題尤其現在資訊科技一直加入在這個情況之下 內政部視農村為低度開發區也缺乏了完整性的發展規劃"},{"start":3576.381,"end":3590.794,"text":"導致我地方的這個經濟呢它是農村地區年輕人想要回來但是還是怕怕的那我們非常的希望年輕人可以回流我們運用的各種方式不管是農保的保障啊"},{"start":3591.914,"end":3601.218,"text":"各方面我們都努力在做但是我似乎看到成效還是有很大的空間來精進所以年輕人沒有辦法仿香作業我想會衍生更其他的一個議題所以請教副署長也就是說在針對整個國際城鎮的案例裡頭我們要怎麼樣提出具彈性的土地規劃跟基礎建設的投資讓我們的農村它不是只有保護農地"},{"start":3620.106,"end":3645.888,"text":"同時他也要激發非常重要的激發地方經濟的一個活力能夠城鄉的一個共榮跟平衡請做說明好謝謝委員的推詢第一件事情其實農地或鄉村地區他主要的目前的機制相關東西比較大的問題其實是要成就一件事情是那個生態圈就前後的整件事情都完備"},{"start":3646.468,"end":3675.03,"text":"人家才願意住進去或發展或做他的產業等等的事情所以剛才也有講農業部有相關的那個農債也好農種也好這相關的東西就從產業生活生態相關都會去做然後這次的國土計畫大家可以看到農業我們叫農業發展的這個功能分區在裡面又1141月的部分我們也加了這個相規的機制這個相規就會把這些事情重整之後接下來在我們這邊主要是空間部門"},{"start":3675.59,"end":3699.902,"text":"就在這空間部門就可以做功能跟土地使用相關的調節然後相關東西我們也可以跟其他的工具主要的農的公共設施工具相關工具我們就可以整合進行整體的規劃你現在說我們國防會在這裡內政部也在這裡農業部也在這裡你就可以很清楚的聽到現在是各行其事沒有做整合"},{"start":3700.482,"end":3720.371,"text":"所以本席這一題的議題也就是討論請你們三位同在一起來討論也就是這一個不要在各起形式應該要做一個整合的工作所以我就要請我們這個國發會好好的來做整合的工作好嗎是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝楊瓊英委員那下一位請李玉玲委員質詢"},{"start":3735.303,"end":3738.467,"text":"謝謝主席 請彭副主委委員長"},{"start":3746.752,"end":3774.297,"text":"副主委我們今天要討論的就是我們國土計劃法在2015年完成之後就分三個時間時段時程來做這個實施那全國的國土計劃法跟縣市的國土計劃法都已經公告了那國土計劃法也讓我們國土的功能分區圖延長了這個六年的時間那副主委你對這個延期的個人有什麼看法想法呢"},{"start":3777.943,"end":3796.45,"text":"當初在修法的時候其實有一些爭議所以在這個為了解決爭議所以大院就有做這個展延的決定那這個修法之後其實在這段期間其實我們可以做很多的事情一個就是剛剛提到那個項規就是第八條第三項這個指甲師先生我必須要做的這個內容"},{"start":3797.35,"end":3818.077,"text":"另外一個我覺得在這段期間區域計畫它還是要執行就是說因為國土計畫法公文分區還沒有完全的公告那在公告之前呢這個現行的都市區域計畫的這些執行也必須要做所以有關這些譬如說開發許可的過程可能就要跟"},{"start":3819.918,"end":3829.762,"text":"最重要的就是因為如果這土地被劃定之後的話不能隨意變更所以未來只有五年做個通盤檢討才能變更所以就是被劃定它的地目的話就不能隨意所以才會在延長六年時間好好的讓我們政府去做個宣導"},{"start":3839.926,"end":3849.948,"text":"去規劃最重要也是各地方全國的各地方縣市政府的話在地方的發展上能夠統籌出一個功能的分區圖出來才是最重要的那在這點的話我們也要我們國發會特別要了解現在雖然說我們國土計畫法的主管機關是內政部但是我們國發會負責的是國家的整體的政策的規劃也負擔的"},{"start":3867.072,"end":3876.757,"text":"所有我們國家的資源分配跟我們各部會做一個協調者你們是各部會整體的協調者所以你看到經濟部的話他們所主管的是產業的園區國科會的話負責的是我們的科學的園區農業部的話是負責這個農地"},{"start":3888.763,"end":3904.981,"text":"是所以你們既然要各部會去整合的話應該是本席是建議說應該是用國發會來主導你們從中的協調才會更加的順利是不是你們那個負擔起這個責任嗎是跟委員報告其實我們現在就負擔這個責任因為我們所以主管機關是應該有國發會嗎"},{"start":3907.336,"end":3911.799,"text":"我們本來就在做部會之間的協調工作因為內政部還有沒有辦法跟跨部會來做協商因為這橫跨的經濟部還有國科會跟我們的農地農業部等等還有其他部會的所以你們必須在資源分配上還有統整各個意見上你做個協調者你就應該來承擔這個責任你們願意嗎"},{"start":3930.59,"end":3938.716,"text":"國家層級的這個譬如說六大區域產業這個我們確實要去做這個責任所以你們願意承擔這個責任嗎所以我現在說你們願意承擔就應該由你們來主管好不好"},{"start":3946.801,"end":3956.029,"text":"你們在推責任了嗎不是 沒有國家的重大政策的規劃者你卻不願意承擔這個責任因為我本席為什麼會這麼說就像是我們大矽谷計畫它是我們桃竹苗地區的這個包括我們這個資通訊還有半導體 國際物流生醫跟生技等產業的聚落"},{"start":3967.438,"end":3994.793,"text":"那我們希望是讓我們的產業更擴大這個產業的效應能夠帶動整體的薪資水平更增加我們就業的機會所以我們希望說我們國發會就可以來做一個統整讓你看看桃竹苗也橫跨桃竹苗各縣市它的分區的功能區分圖要做出來所以我們這個國發會來做統整做協調是更加的讓這個事情能夠事半功倍"},{"start":3995.453,"end":4018.994,"text":"是 我們已經有一個機制了你都一直點頭了 那就沒有問題了不是 我們有一個區域治理的平台那譬如說桃竹苗大氣谷其實我們也都在開像昨天我們已經開了第二次的協調會議把各部會都找來那昨天我們都開了滿長的一段時間把各個細部計畫還有配套措施各單位他們所在桃竹苗的地區所做的這些建設我們通通一一的檢視跟計畫方案我們都檢視過"},{"start":4019.915,"end":4037.09,"text":"整個國土計畫如果說在國發會來統整的話可以讓我們產業的用地更加的通盤跟長遠的規劃可以做得更好所以這點你們希望你們回去再討論一下好不好謝謝 不然的話你看包括農地 農地有農一到農五"},{"start":4038.351,"end":4052.162,"text":"他的農地如果被你們劃定特定的工業功能區分圖之後的話他是不能隨便變更的那農民的權益呢要如何去保障所以你還在跟農業部去溝通嘛我們樂於協調啦樂於協調就是協調者才必須把這個責任更加的擴大好不好那針對於我們地方今天還有排一個地方的創生計畫看到很多地方的創生計畫的話這個執行率到現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":4069.032,"end":4088.608,"text":"很多人來申請計畫嗎執行率有沒有過半跟委員報告我們在地方創現在分幾個部分在推動第一個部分是各縣市或者是民間團體他都其實在問你是你執行率如何執行率其實都有超過你統整這個創生計畫的話你是總經費是多少我們現在執行都有超過八成以上"},{"start":4097.249,"end":4125.485,"text":"這個數據再給本席因為我們看到數據沒有超過60%啦那最重要我們地方的創生是希望我們年輕人可以回鄉服務讓他能夠離外地方來為地方來做一個貢獻服務嘛那可是很多的計畫沒有來申請的是什麼原因我之前在質詢的時候也請你們去了解是因為我們的門檻太高呢還是我們的流程太過繁複讓他們沒辦法來申請你們調查結果是怎麼樣還沒有回答本席"},{"start":4126.045,"end":4147.819,"text":"是跟委員報告因為我們現在除了鄉鎮公所能夠提案之外我們也有一個叫多元提案就多元提案的方式其實不只公部門、私部門甚至於NPO他們都有可能去提案所以這個提案其實我們希望就是由下層比較主動式的那希望鄉鎮市區公所或者是縣市政府他們能夠輔導或透過我們的輔導機制"},{"start":4150.461,"end":4164.686,"text":"所以我們國發會還沒有實際了解為什麼沒有來因為我們也在在地看到很多一些創生的一些年輕人他們在做的時候都有那股熱忱但是的話為什麼沒有永續下去或者中途就作罷了那當然就是虧錢沒辦法沒辦法只好作罷"},{"start":4168.908,"end":4196.328,"text":"那我們看到我們要年輕人回鄉來做這些事情才給了地方的創生那地方的創生很多的計畫因為是年輕人那我們是不是說不只是年輕人我們可以讓地方的長者他們很多的經驗跟很多的想法可以跟他們結合起來的話讓我們年輕人結合年長的人一起來做這個地方創生再更可以相輔相仁是更好的才能永續傳承下去這個可以一個方式"},{"start":4197.368,"end":4213.156,"text":"謝謝委員建議其實這個我們也在這樣子做那譬如說我們的青培站其實我們青培雖然他是年輕人當頭可是他其他的這些成員我們需要他能夠有五個跟他相關的團隊成員這些通通都沒有限制也就是說我們希望年輕人能夠反向可是他因為"},{"start":4214.376,"end":4230.97,"text":"地方中高齡化那個還是需要一些年輕人在那個地方對 我說相輔相屬 相輔相成跟我們年長的一些經驗跟他們累積的這個做法可以一起讓我們的創生計畫可以更加茁壯非常感謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝李玉玲委員那下一位請張琦楷委員質詢"},{"start":4258.028,"end":4266.127,"text":"請農業部的這個胡宗一副次長叫國發會彭副主委來請好請胡次長跟我們彭副主委"},{"start":4270.681,"end":4293.12,"text":"胡市長,國內農糧跟公糧是重重競爭的所以我今天利用這個時間,你今天剛好來因為立法院第一會期就通過了公糧收購,今天要調高五塊錢大家都很努力,這個第一個是立法院通過的第二個經過跟行政院長、行政院的協商"},{"start":4294.781,"end":4315.076,"text":"那部長 包括部長都有說要這個完整的這個配套要好好再推動嘛那目前 目前只調高了三分之一就是一塊八左右 本來是三塊嘛那顯然分階段還要再去調整那我請你要前提去促成這個事情 好不好主管現在很緊張啦一級二層參加層很緊張部長答應我就是說他最近會安排例如說我們下鄉去傾聽這個農民的聲音嘛這個我們要趕快做"},{"start":4321.701,"end":4345.768,"text":"好因為我們這個上個會期有動了今年度的業務費30%我本來認為說你們跳票只做了三分之一嘛因為立法院過的是一公斤五塊錢你現在只調了1.82嘛那本來是要刪減這個你們的業務費的後來經過大家草野協商包括玉嶼他們都有進來一起協商所以沒有刪減可是凍結了30%那就要趕快去解決這個問題我們會尊重"},{"start":4347.588,"end":4358.916,"text":"照顧好我們的農民啦一方面你是農糧的專業你對這個事情最了解一方面是我們要好好去照顧我們的農民好不好是是沒問題沒問題當然這事情就滿你好不好我們盡快去達到每公斤調高五塊錢這個目標好不好我們會全力來做好謝謝市長謝謝來副市委是委員長來看一下你們這個網頁啊國發會定名"},{"start":4371.872,"end":4395.762,"text":"國外的網友說你們在促進產業發展上面你們去協調推動能源政策跟相關的計畫結果現在發現你們去協調完之後我們的能源結構還是出了一堆問題過幾天就要漲電價了漲電價對產業也會有很大的衝擊不只民生啊對整個產業也會有很大的衝擊啊我現在要問幾個很重要的問題經過你們協調"},{"start":4399.184,"end":4411.98,"text":"再生能源有沒有達到你們國發會本來預定的這個目標你看一下喔 總統府本來在108年的時候總統府說再生能源在2025年的今年就要達到20%"},{"start":4414.431,"end":4436.056,"text":"不只跳票 跳得太離譜了現在大概只到12%嘛 對不對這是一個 國發會你說2050年要達到60到70%看起來這個目標看起來也不容易特別是 我們用最近的來檢驗你說2030年就要到30%2035年要達到再生能源36%你覺得你們國家檢探新目標這再生能源有辦法達到嗎"},{"start":4442.83,"end":4468.607,"text":"跟委員報告現在2025年再生能源佔比是百分之二十啦那目標是延後到2026年才要達到再生能源夠不夠今天通訊的12%而已啦12%啊你們總統府本來說要20%已經跳票了嘛那現在延到說要往後一年可是明年度總統府說賣你比較高可是看起來是跳票啊你們國發會訂的是2030年要30老實講"},{"start":4472.697,"end":4489.628,"text":"難度很高啦我今天的質疑點就是說你國家發展很重要 你是領頭羊啊你訂目標要確合實際 對不對 這是確合實際嘛如果訂完之後就一定要去達成 好不好來來來 我跟你講更嚴重的來不只達不到 你來看一下"},{"start":4490.848,"end":4506.859,"text":"童子賢啊 童子賢是國家氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人 召集人是一代總統啦童子賢是副召集人 他怎麼說他說20 現在 現在如果他用前年2023年的這個用電來算我們全國用了2821次 億度的這個電"},{"start":4512.583,"end":4537.415,"text":"他說這個電如果全部都是向你們推再生能源用光電板去算會很恐怖耶這影響到我們全台灣人的生活空間他說如果全部用太陽能來發這個國家要用的電要需要10.5個台北市的這個面積就像台灣啊全部的面積有8%台灣有高山嘛對不對可以用的大部分比較精華都是平原嘛平原的30%三層全部都鋪蓋這個光電板"},{"start":4542.981,"end":4562.618,"text":"太陽光電板不可能嘛那這樣的話台灣就活不下去啦生活空間啊所以顯然在推動這個你說你不要去協調這個國家的這個能源的時候這個要非常注意好不好好 謝謝還影響到生命的這個健康喔是生命的健康我先給大家看一個2019年啊"},{"start":4564.871,"end":4576.897,"text":"國際大型的公衛研究發現,你如果是燒煤,燒煤這個每增加1000瓦男性罹癌的這個比例就會增加59%女性更高,85%他們還進一步推估說,2025年全球的這幾年"},{"start":4590.02,"end":4611.929,"text":"全世界啊 有137萬個標準化的肺癌這個病例啊 跟燃煤都是有關的那你們應該有責任啊 你們訂了目標 而且你們要推再生能源啊結果煤越燒越大 你看今年的發展是什麼把河山廠的一號機停掉 馬上又要停二號機了以後就非核加鹽了 低碳 低碳的"},{"start":4613.203,"end":4615.484,"text":"核能沒有啦 零喔 增價是什麼?"},{"start":4615.484,"end":4628.833,"text":"九年啊 賣掉 我們跟他買電本來是已經停了對不對結果又延長 你看婚姻 嫁妓 中華台中那些人多可憐這個我希望國泡會要好好注意喔另外還影響到什麼?"},{"start":4628.833,"end":4632.495,"text":"很多國人的生活的支出面 過去三年漲四次"},{"start":4633.692,"end":4649.083,"text":"事業一躍於人賊又要這樣第五次這個人民生活受到影響企業也受到影響好第四個台電的財務man我今天給他看一個很重要的財報這是第一次出現的財報台電一月份啊"},{"start":4651.849,"end":4668.446,"text":"虧損累累 光是一個月份就虧損了97億有夠恐怖的喔台電以前是金雞模 他以前每年都可以剩餘兩三百億還給我們國庫了現在光是一個月份虧損了97億大家看一下 何冷幫他賺了8億他雖然虧97億 何冷還是幫他賺錢的喔"},{"start":4673.215,"end":4694.779,"text":"結果在最近5月17號核能要停掉那虧損不是更大嗎另外一個恐怖的數據你看風電喔1月份我們買風電的時候可以買得太貴就虧損了56億天然氣虧了13另外除了自己台電自己的虧損用天然氣虧損13億之外外購的去外面買的又虧15億這個都補不了啦不只是撥補1000億2000億"},{"start":4702.908,"end":4729.741,"text":"這個無底洞補不了你在漲電價一直漲也沒有辦法解決問題嘛這個是多嚴重的一個問題這是第一次我給大家看的這是台電自己的財務報表一個月虧97億光電特別是光電請大家看一下光電跟風電那個損害有多大然後你又把最便宜的核電把它拿掉你說你要幫這個企業企業碰到一個很大的問題企業馬上就碰到碳配的問題對不對"},{"start":4731.601,"end":4748.813,"text":"副主委馬上看到碳費的問題碳費核電是低碳嘛幾乎是零碳啊結果你現在燒煤燒天然氣啊這個錢就附加在你的碳費就附加在這個企業的這個身上了嘛影響了企業的發展跟他的競爭力嘛好最後我做個結論"},{"start":4750.738,"end":4776.067,"text":"好好去檢討剛剛五個面向的這個大問題好不好好健康的這個問題是我們人民生活的這個整個面積環境的這個問題還有這個電價的這個問題是最後建議我做四個建議第一個我們好好去檢討能源的政策的錯誤包括是不是應該趕快要重啟核電第二個現在行政院長跟美術都在講說要重啟核電碰到一個問題要社會共識"},{"start":4778.593,"end":4797.764,"text":"現在民調都很清楚 以和養立公投也都過了你如果應該遵從民意可是行政院到現在都一直在講社會共識那我們今天鄭重的呼籲依照公投法第14條第一項的規定行政部門也可以倡議開始公投你們要社會共識"},{"start":4799.133,"end":4808.462,"text":"行政部門提案我們來公投一次到底要不要重啟核電另外加速去處理核廢料最終處理廠的這個問題這是法律上規定行政部門要做的"},{"start":4809.502,"end":4836.915,"text":"到現在都沒有好好做要加速第四個檢視核電廠的運作的這個安全好不好趕快去做這四點更重要的我現在今天拿的是你的網站上面的你既然要去協調要去檢視整個我們的能源政策要去振興產業這四個建議趕快做好不好而且從剛剛五個面向是一定要照顧到人民要去振興我們的這個景氣讓我們的能源政策整個回到正常好不好不要再這樣一直錯誤下去好 謝謝主委好 主席謝謝好"},{"start":4839.602,"end":4867.27,"text":"好 謝謝張祺凱委員那下一位請鄭天才委員質詢主席 各位委員有請這個副主委請副主委還有內政部的"},{"start":4876.869,"end":4888.636,"text":"我們先請教內政部國土署在今天內政部的報告裡面特別提到國土功能分期土審議的作業進度"},{"start":4891.414,"end":4919.386,"text":"除了南投縣政府外其餘21個直轄市縣市政府已經將這個各該國土功能分析草案送到內政部那這個已經送來的內政部審議的情形怎麼樣好 報告委員目前除了南投縣的部分其餘21個縣市都已經送進來了然後那個委員的簡報裡面也有寫這9個部分"},{"start":4921.345,"end":4944.593,"text":"包含基隆、新竹、縣新竹市、嘉義市、宜蘭縣、花蓮縣、澎湖縣、金門縣、連江縣這9個已經過了那其他我們還在審議中然後南投縣的部分我們的政治董事長在2月10號有拜訪南投縣縣政府然後就相關部分也做相關的溝通 以上好 2月10號有去溝通嘛那縣議會現在目前進度怎麼樣"},{"start":4949.501,"end":4974.379,"text":"我记得二月底三月初那个县政府有就他们的问题提出来我们也有一些公文回复回去了然后县政府应该现在正在跟县委会做一定的沟通如果经过沟通协调都顺利的话所有的县市政府也经过你们的审议完成的话那接下来呢"},{"start":4975.792,"end":4995.01,"text":"我們就陸陸續續依他提報到中央的部分依相關的原則我要問的是說這個修法延長這個怎麼處理修法 剛剛前面有一個其實是延期嘛 延期部分就是"},{"start":4995.63,"end":5021.813,"text":"盡量讓這件事原來的期限可以往後那第二個部分其實是入法就剛剛講的相關的入法的部分那相關入法的部分就要整合大家就他那個農村或是其他非城鄉地區他如果有相關的這個功能分析或土地使用的相關的問題就可以就那個部分去做那個討論然後在這個過程當中還沒有公告實施的過程當中原來的區域計畫我們也會用"},{"start":5023.615,"end":5040.79,"text":"因為陸續也有一些相關的整合的計畫就要做這個指導來做一些相關的協助那個講得很複雜一般民眾不會那麼清楚其實這個我在列政委員會諮詢過很多次這個鄉村區這個部分農民最重視的其實他"},{"start":5050.958,"end":5069.372,"text":"他居住的土地能不能好好的蓋能不能依法來蓋現在就是沒有辦法依法因為法限制太嚴而且不合理為什麼我常常起我不知道你有沒有看過我常常起基隆"},{"start":5070.58,"end":5097.951,"text":"基隆的山坡地包括林口新店比一般鄉村區還陡他們一樣可以蓋大樓鄉村區也沒有要蓋大樓卻不行了這個才是真正關鍵這個部分也請內政部這個部分我之前建議的部分一定要把它納入好不好請回座"},{"start":5100.356,"end":5107.746,"text":"我們副主委國會的報告在上次業務報告裡面也提到了"},{"start":5109.837,"end":5137.527,"text":"這個六大區域產業及生活圈特別提到這個宜花東東部慢火城鄉的發展是這個看到這個慢慢火我們本來就應該了在花蓮台東很需要但是很多目前現在的這個政府的建設慢了真的慢"},{"start":5139.293,"end":5163.831,"text":"我來看要請國防會來協調交通部這個因為0403的地震造成了北威鐵路河冷到崇德這一段所以必須一定要改善台鐵漁花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫需求的經費是64.1億元這個部分已經"},{"start":5171.042,"end":5196.056,"text":"從行政院長都去過了交通部長也去了好幾次但是這個計畫一直還沒有核定所以這個部分請國防部協調交通部趕快核定好 我們再來協調交通部這個是一個很重要的第一個再怎麼慢 交通不能慢另外就是這個樹花庵"},{"start":5197.715,"end":5222.67,"text":"蘇阿安如果我們看了108年12月20號行政院核定可行性研究到現在花這麼長的時間這個交通部曾報到行政院當然已經經過你們了所以我們已經復院了對到行政院去年12月9號到現在所以這個部分也要請這個"},{"start":5225.401,"end":5246.796,"text":"國發會要去跟幕僚行政院的幕僚來去做一個你看說法改的很快就核定了沒有幾年就核定了所以這個部分這個說法確實要那麼久這個部分要去說明要去溝通"},{"start":5247.959,"end":5268.173,"text":"我以前也是常常去說明溝通我以前常常去國發會包括以前的經建會 研考會都要去溝通說明讓這個有疑惑的能夠把它講清楚說明白 好不好謝謝委員加油好 謝謝委員"},{"start":5273.066,"end":5297.833,"text":"好 謝謝鄭正全謝謝鄭天才委員不是 我在想誰等一下誰要幫我帶來誰謝謝鄭天才委員好 那我們下一位請張家俊委員發言主席我想請這個農業部次長跟我們國土署的副署長好 請"},{"start":5303.332,"end":5327.96,"text":"早 早那國土計畫法在去年年底完成三讀修法那確定再展延六年那這是連我們昭緯我們這個經濟委員會大家都一致支持的那去年立法院之所以通過展延修法呢是一個補課的機會我們看到我們希望期待看到一個完整的配套明確的路徑 積極的溝通請問農業部跟內政部這三個月來"},{"start":5332.441,"end":5360.261,"text":"有没有什么具体的规划为之后做准备呢是我们已经把涉及到土地管制相关的规定的六个法六部法律啊全部把它修好而且已经送到行政院那其中四部已经完成行政院的这个审议另外还有两部行政退回来给我们要我们再做修正那这个的内容呢这六部法的内容大概会跟我们的农业部跟我们的农民有什么相关呢"},{"start":5360.601,"end":5388.026,"text":"對就是裡面涉及包括農業發展條例還有這個農產品市場交易法還有漁業法森林法以及稅都保持法還有這個農地管制上坡地保育規則這些都跟農民的權利有直接的關係那接下來我再請教國土署一個問題就是說你知道國土計畫法跟執法的專區網站是你們設的嗎"},{"start":5390.978,"end":5414.739,"text":"是那你知道最後一次更新是什麼時候嗎你不知道上面寫的那麼清楚去年的12月25日到今天為止顯示能有七項執法尚未完備就是剛才次長說他有通過的法你也都還沒有update那到今天喔已經三個多月了"},{"start":5415.299,"end":5437.2,"text":"完全都毫無進度那這個是否說你完全沒有實質進度那如果有進度為什麼網站不更新那如果連基本的資訊揭露都做不到你要怎麼談說你跟社會跟地方有合作呢好 跟委員報告那因為一月份要延長之後我們所有的剩下這些執法的部分"},{"start":5437.62,"end":5465.893,"text":"我們原來都在布裡面已經在進最後的階段的部分我們就退回來依現在的法還有相規還有農業部相關的調整我們正在去所以這三個月內都沒有什麼值得可以update的東西嗎不是還是你們現在已經覺得已經延遲六年了所以我們慢慢來沒有關係我現在想說的就是其中最關鍵的國土計畫土地使用管制規則到現在連草案的定稿都看不到"},{"start":5467.697,"end":5491.415,"text":"這個你們訂稿了嗎我沒有草案訂稿可是這個專區是最後的結果嘛法定程序完成那你要讓大家知道說我們訂稿中啊民眾要怎麼討論地方政府要怎麼準備你完全都沒有任何的information你特別設了一個網站你也可以不要設這個網站你設了一個網站之後你三個月都不update假設今天我不告訴你"},{"start":5492.95,"end":5497.575,"text":"搞不好明年的今天我問你 你也都還沒有update那接下來我再請教那個農業部次長喔"},{"start":5501.065,"end":5527.705,"text":"當初這個農業部有承諾說會處理農地分區的爭議也說了農業堆疊式補助然後也跟這個可能跟國土計畫法並沒有說相關直接連結的扣在一起那我也想請問一下次長那請問這三個月以來有沒有針對農一農二劃分的準則跟補貼的辦法有新的進展呢劃分的準則本來就已經就有"},{"start":5528.525,"end":5535.616,"text":"我知道 但是大家很有疑慮啊你劃分的準則大家都覺得太粗糙啦你有沒有一些更細緻的規劃呢還是你覺得不需要改變這個是我們在榮譽榮那個很早就已經訂了而且已經有共識的"},{"start":5544.909,"end":5573.007,"text":"你跟誰的共識 你跟農民的共識嗎農民也有 也有學者專家還有各機關都有目前 目前喔 據我所知非常多的農業縣都對農一農二劃分的那個粗糙方式有所意見所以是農業部到現在不知道說有這樣子的大家有這樣的意見嗎還是你公文都隨便看一看 然後我們要仔細看嗎這是國家大政不能開玩笑的是啊 不能開玩笑啊我們變得非常清楚 這個委員可能"},{"start":5573.607,"end":5589.959,"text":"可能是你所講的定義跟我是不知道你的定義事實上農醫那個都很清楚你的農醫把一些沒有重化過的土地也化作農醫沒有農路沒有水路也可以當作農醫嗎那個是各縣市政府在劃分的時候把它劃進來那個是你們給的規範"},{"start":5593.922,"end":5609.092,"text":"但是你們給的規範這不是委員可以讓我來念一下農醫的定義不需要我現在不需要你在這裡念我現在要提醒的是不管是農業部也好不管是國土署也好展延六年是希望能夠"},{"start":5610.493,"end":5618.04,"text":"展現出更妥善的一個成績單 而不是說你們可以研製六年 延宕六年 放著給他發燒 不是這樣子 六年不是一個無限期啊可能時間一晃眼就過去了 那如果到時候問題一樣存在的話那還是基層亂啊 民眾怨啊 民眾罵呀 這樣的法案就沒有辦法轉變社會的觀感 那當初他的這個"},{"start":5637.098,"end":5650.775,"text":"政策正當性怎麼辦呢所以我很希望說我們今天既然是要討論國土計劃法這個延遲之後大家要怎麼把它完善我本席希望你們不要告訴我說我們都已經規劃好了"},{"start":5652.977,"end":5656.12,"text":"規劃好了為什麼不能實施為什麼不能實施就是因為有疑慮嘛現在已經有22個縣當中剩下南投縣沒有提出來我知道但是他們提出的還是有疑慮否則為什麼民進黨黨團他也支持要延役呢他也支持要延遲6年呢就是大家朝野"},{"start":5673.414,"end":5689.24,"text":"唯一的共識就是這個法不夠周延需要再把它完善包括這個國土署絕對不是只有農業部你也背負非常重要的這個責任甚至國發會也是啊跨部會的協調要怎麼協調總不能讓他們自己他們兩邊對不上是不是國發會也要負一點責任呢我問國發會啊好 謝謝"},{"start":5703.997,"end":5712.74,"text":"國發會針對這個國土計畫法有沒有在橫向溝通有沒有在協助農業部有沒有在協助內政部我們一直都有很密切的在做討論那我們像怎麼討論我們有找那個國土"},{"start":5718.862,"end":5741.932,"text":"國土署還有我們農業部這邊我們來討論但實際上我們也發現有一些執行上面其實目前這六年可能也必須要急著要做的事情對啊這六年本席是希望說國發會你既然要幫忙整合的話你應該要有時程出來可能幾年到幾年你要完成什麼部分幾年到幾年你要怎麼樣多辦公廳會"},{"start":5743.493,"end":5761.366,"text":"你必須要有一個期程而不是說漫長的這樣子等到可能要執行的前一年然後又突然發現這五年你們什麼都沒做是吧是是是這個應該我覺得國土署都目前都已經有進度而且農業部這裡也都看得到那進度也沒有"},{"start":5762.526,"end":5776.694,"text":"今天委員會的內容也都沒有任何的報告啊哪一個時辰要做什麼事情會後我再跟他們來討論是 如果你們討論之後也希望能夠儘速向本委員會提出報告說明 好嗎謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝張家俊委員那下一位請鄭正前委員質詢"},{"start":5798.847,"end":5806.254,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下國發會副主委然後我們農業部政次還有國土署副署長都準備一下謝謝那跟市署官員請"},{"start":5813.357,"end":5829.969,"text":"副主委早我想說今天主席特別安排了一個農村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展任性之規劃方向但我覺得很清楚就是要因應國土計畫法延後六年我們這六年當中要做什麼事情"},{"start":5830.629,"end":5846.678,"text":"那才能夠讓我們的國土計畫能夠更為適當所以我想這些很重要的部分那在國發會這邊的時候有特別提到一個部分就是說對於整個六大區域產業及生活圈是接下來我們主要的發展的一個部分"},{"start":5847.558,"end":5870.087,"text":"那針對這部分當中的時候有一個桃竹苗大細股計畫桃竹苗這邊就是桃竹苗大細股計畫這邊那我想說因為之前的時候也都納入重大建設重大建設我要特別問的要到一個部分是針對新竹市竹科X2旗這邊竹科X2旗這個都市計畫目前範圍大概有多大"},{"start":5871.027,"end":5885.679,"text":"那因為之前審議出來的跟地方的需求有很大的一個落差那在接下來的時候我們這邊要怎麼做因為我剛剛聽報告你好說你最近其實也在重新召開接下來的一個會議對不對"},{"start":5887.06,"end":5890.384,"text":"昨天下午開的會的時候呢是各部會有沒有找地方政府相關一起來參與目前我們是先把"},{"start":5905.342,"end":5930.202,"text":"部會之間的所有相關的譬如說配套措施或是他們的策略推動策略先做一個整合然後把各個不同的部會的方案跟計畫做盤點然後把他們的里程碑跟他們的推動策略因為我看了一個我們之前桃中環大西湖計畫當中很多都是原本原有的計畫把它整個併在一起所以事實上對新竹市來講的時候呢就是我們併進來的計畫裡面有兩個是民間提出來的一個計畫"},{"start":5934.045,"end":5960.263,"text":"土地開發計畫可是是市政府不通過的我們也把它納進來了所以我在想說我想講一個部分就是說既然這個六大的那個區域產業區域的跟生活圈的計畫很重要的時候然後你昨天也開了一個會那開了會既然是各部會在走的時候我想說不只是中央因為土地都在地方所以我們很需要讓地方的意見能夠很清楚的進來我剛舉個例子比方說"},{"start":5961.744,"end":5980.866,"text":"我們納進來的有兩個那個產業的一個區域那基本上那兩個產業區域是市政府基本上並沒有認同的一個計畫可是我們也把它都納進來了所以這表示中央在做整個桃園文化大憲武計畫當中跟地方的溝通有很大的一個落差再加上"},{"start":5982.387,"end":6006.017,"text":"以新竹市為例 新竹市這邊針對整個桃園大西湖計畫有一個很大的一個期待希望把竹科X2旗的一個都市計畫範圍能夠擴大納入那原本納入的範圍大概有390多公頃 可是我們這邊省出來的狀態大概只剩7、80公頃那有一個很大的落差 所以我在想說既然已經開始開這樣的會議的時候 是不是應該把地方"},{"start":6006.497,"end":6033.699,"text":"的意見一起納入才不會變成是我們中央自己開了會之後到時候地方完全沒有辦法配合是 各位說明那我們好像是在1月我記得是在1月的時候其實由我們主委跟四個市的市長然後一起共同開過一個會議那這個會議中間我們成立了一個區域治理的一個平台針對桃竹苗大矽谷中央跟地方之間的該協調的事項"},{"start":6035.14,"end":6064.282,"text":"那這個部分呢其實就是針對各市他們可能會碰到的一些問題或是跨部會協調的事項會在這個平台上面做協調那這個是跟地方之間的關聯那昨天開的那個會是我們自己的推動會議那沒問題那我在想說就針對新竹市竹克S2期的一個範圍當中因為可能跟國土署這邊會有很大的一個關係那我在想說也請副主委這邊能夠"},{"start":6065.363,"end":6080.271,"text":"加緊腳步把這部分把它給整合起來那我接下來想請教內政部國土署這邊因為這邊有提到說我們在目前除了南投 縣政府這21個縣市都已經有提出了一個國土功能分區"},{"start":6081.371,"end":6103.925,"text":"然後你這邊也提到了有九個縣市的國土功能分區圖已經經過那個國土計畫審議會議通過我想問一下因為裡面包括新竹市我想特別關心這事情就是說如果因為接下來這六年如果地方政府他們對於這個國土功能的分區圖還有意見可不可以再提出申請"},{"start":6105.667,"end":6127.191,"text":"一國土計畫法的部分下一階段就是兩個部分一個部分就是通盤檢討的部分那另外一部分就是它如果有相規的適用也可以從相規適用去這六年當中的時候就還是維持這個狀態還是說地方政府他們如果說對原本提出來的那個國土功能分區圖有意見是不是還可以再提出來新的版本"},{"start":6129.409,"end":6145.335,"text":"因為現在以現在的狀態南投如果也上來假設也上來審完審完通過就可以進行下一階段的剛才講的那個機制的部分那就可以去做討論了因為我們那個國土計畫法延後六年"},{"start":6146.195,"end":6175.609,"text":"那國發會這邊也提到要將鄉村地區整體規劃納入國土計劃法的規範這大概原本的文字裡面有那因為它延後六年的時候我們就發現農地違規使用的狀況我們在這六年當中要怎麼樣去完善去改變然後讓農地變更申請的案件請問一下這半年來或者從去年一整年大概整個農地變更的案件大概量有多少"},{"start":6177.591,"end":6179.133,"text":"跟委員報告你應該是講說在這個階段用趨跡適用"},{"start":6190.225,"end":6214.978,"text":"因為有很多地方的有些媒體或者說有一些不動產開發業者他們其實基本上他們在這段時間因為知道說國際化會延後六年他們其實就不斷的去push一些農地的owner那他們是不是在這狀態能夠去做變更使用那針對這六年過程當中的時候那我們對於農地變更的時候會不會有一些不一樣的一個做法"},{"start":6215.738,"end":6241.034,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們也補助了那個幾十案的相規的部分那相規部分在縣市政府有在期末階段其實他也有一些看法跟相關部分那我們就尊重他的規劃部分那這樣子因為趨跡階段還是審議嘛那審議會的時候這個東西原則我們就會會在這個原則裡面去做參裁那讓這件事情還是朝向計畫引導的方向去推動"},{"start":6241.954,"end":6256.764,"text":"OK那我想最後一個部分針對農業部這邊因為我想說我們國土計劃法很大一部分是想解決就是區域計劃當中非都市部分的一些相關的問題就是對於整個農業的一個保障那我大概有看到一個資料就是說2023年整個糧食年報當中的時候"},{"start":6260.487,"end":6286.469,"text":"那我們看到台灣的糧食自給率就是還蠻明顯的一個降低蠻明顯的降低所以我想說這六年如果說再碰到比方說大家很多地方他們想要搶就是國土計畫法延後六年這狀態想要不斷去變更農地可能會讓農地更破碎化或者是讓未來的農業的發展會更不利那對這部分的時候我們農業部對這接下來的這六年"},{"start":6286.869,"end":6309.864,"text":"是不是會有一些什麼樣的狀態要去確保農地的完整性然後讓臺灣的糧食自給率能夠持續維持在一個比較好的一個盆地是 我們會確保這些優良農地的保存特別是農一農二還有農山在山坡地以及林地的部分還有在這個都市計畫區還沒有變更為都市計畫的這些優良農地這個我們會去把它做一個"},{"start":6310.865,"end":6326.1,"text":"良好的規劃然後給他做一個更高的高強度的輔導跟協助那我最後就提一個狀態因為國有計畫法會延六年草野都認為應該要延有一個很大的地方就是覺得跟地方的溝通不是那麼夠所以我們也希望說國發會這邊還有"},{"start":6328.582,"end":6355.531,"text":"比方說國土署這邊跟農業部這邊能夠跟地方做更好的一個溝通那需求能夠具體去滿足地方的一個需求那在我們六年的一個延後才會真正的有意義好不好對對謝謝謝謝委員的指教謝謝委員好謝謝鄭正前委員那也拜託我們接下來請一下蔡易瑜召委"},{"start":6368.015,"end":6388.12,"text":"好謝謝那我們是不是有請國安會副組委以及農業部次長和內政部國土管理署的副署長還有那個農村發展及水土保持署一樣是副署長我們請四位一起謝謝好"},{"start":6396.816,"end":6422.675,"text":"針對今天安排的這樣的一個命題那主要我們事實上都很關心從剛剛所有發言的委員大家都在關心說國土計畫法展延了六年那這六年我們究竟要做什麼事情那我想先還是就整個台灣的一個前提雖然我們知道台灣的鄉村是在凋零這個台灣的鄉村凋零這件事情"},{"start":6423.636,"end":6450.447,"text":"是非常的速度非常的快比少子化的問題還要嚴重就是鄉村凋零所以你來看喔在2022年的時候在那一個年度天下雜誌就有做出了一個就是說他已經統計說當一個年度他在那一年已經說有11個村里台灣有11個村里是連鎖5當沒有新生兒"},{"start":6451.787,"end":6469.599,"text":"包括新北也有苗栗南投我們嘉義縣的布袋的考試里梅山的壁虎里台南高雄宜蘭澎湖都有這樣連續五年沒有新生兒然後在2022年那一年全台灣有179個叫做五子村里"},{"start":6470.509,"end":6489.134,"text":"那新北市是居冠,就是那個枕頭沒孩子出生那這代表的原因是什麼呢?背後意涵的意義是什麼呢?就是枕頭變沒路用的枕頭為什麼會變沒路用的?就是鄉村裡面的建地"},{"start":6490.578,"end":6511.348,"text":"第一個 地權 地用第一個 地權的問題鄉村的建地因為價錢的關係持分越分越細持分變細理 基本上後面的人要輸贏賣贏本來我們這個家族有一個人他財力比較好他說好我來把過去家裡的三合院我來打敲一敲的"},{"start":6512.148,"end":6537.341,"text":"哇 可是家裡不同的人有意見啊不同沒人幫的有意見那我就不能使用所以你看整個鄉村大概年輕人想要回到鄉村去說我回來我出生的這個部落我要在這裡恢復是沒有機會的這是第一個第二個咧整個鄉村是讓他的機能不見了過去喔過去我們在鎮卡路是騎腳踏車"},{"start":6541.068,"end":6549.72,"text":"現在的交通不是只有車,現在差不多都不用車你看整個車都是小型的,一台車要塞進去就要有工夫、要有技術整個就老實說,小型車"},{"start":6557.731,"end":6575.921,"text":"所以我要跟我們在場與會的我們各位長官我們一直在講說鄉村的社區要有所謂的三生我們可以說地方創生的三生是什麼要有什麼生態要有生活要有生產"},{"start":6578.034,"end":6593.847,"text":"這我們都講得很好聽,大家都會...我都會背啊問題咧?我們鄉村的蒸頭咧?有...沒關係啦!對不對?沒辦法洗碗沒心酸就...加蒸頭的一間乾媽店看起來要維持就有困難了過去那種用酒乾媽店哇!充滿著我們過去故鄉的感覺都不見了那間乾媽店沒辦法生存啦生態也沒有"},{"start":6607.916,"end":6635.272,"text":"所以我具體要說的就是說既然我們這六年的時間我們要有所作為啊這個作為咧就是這次我們打鄉規入法那鄉規入法有一個很大的重點就是我們要怎麼樣協助每一個村莊尤其是越偏鄉的村莊越沒人住的村莊十分越複雜的村莊我們要怎麼協助他們整合產權"},{"start":6639.005,"end":6664.979,"text":"叫他們整合產權 這要有時間 大家要去等他們他們要有整個 而且你們這個鄉規路法你們要把一些鄉規 鄉村規劃的模擬範本要告知這些人就是說這一個鄉村裡面要有多少的建地 建地要重整道路用地 路要變大條這個鄉村裡面要有多少商業機能"},{"start":6666.874,"end":6684.947,"text":"就是要有多少地方是用作生意的你這些東西都要處理要怎麼處理呢?很簡單的你要求一條錢你要有一個基金這個基金我們看要用哪些保險基金怎樣大家來談你要有一個基金要大家的氣氛"},{"start":6686.844,"end":6699.641,"text":"才會氣氛太貴以為如果我是所有權人我覺得這個池噴對我來說是一個負擔了他可以用合理鑑定後的一個價格把這個他的土地池噴賣給這樣的一個基金"},{"start":6701.396,"end":6721.213,"text":"你要賣給他 讓這個基金開始大家的氣氛湧起來未來在鄉村 在做於整個鄉村的這個都市計畫檢討的時候這個基金它等於就可以分配到土地分配到土地 那就是可以做未來這個政策的公共設施"},{"start":6723.283,"end":6730.767,"text":"這就是我們要做的方法好 我都說完了我想要聽一下我們國發會我們國土署跟我們農業部三個單位的意見好謝謝謝謝趙偉的"},{"start":6740.993,"end":6757.817,"text":"覺得還蠻興奮的那剛剛提到的就是如果我們就激動就是舊的一個社區其實尤其是農村社區其實它的吃份還有它的產權這些是相對複雜的所以我看看"},{"start":6758.317,"end":6772.839,"text":"看委員的報告裡面其實有特別提到就是有關比較公的部分怎麼樣去做處理那我覺得這個其實真的可以從內政部這個有一個國土永續發展基金然後可以從他的鄉村地區整體規劃"},{"start":6774.04,"end":6800.741,"text":"甚至鄉村的細部計畫這邊能夠去做一些可能的處理那當然我覺得過程是要溝通的因為要地方這麼多的人然後他們都有一些共識這需要時間所以我們這次還有六年我們這次的展演不是說兩年三年六年是要做事的六年協助整個鄉村把它活絡起來來我想再聽一下我們這個內政部我們國土署"},{"start":6803.365,"end":6824.094,"text":"謝謝趙偉跟蔡委員的質詢兩個人是同一個人是那第一件事情其實因為相規的制度它這空間制度就誠如您剛剛講您講得很清楚啦就是說我們在鄉村地區既有的很多的政策還有很多的計畫那這部分現在最後一路應該是所謂空間"},{"start":6825.695,"end":6852.98,"text":"包含產權的分合跟建築的部分這個部分還有一塊這個部分那相關的設計其實在這邊就可以做第一件事做平台把這些資訊跨這邊去就如您所講的到底真正要集村集村要多大過去那些東西怎麼調節然後再來其實是相關的配套例如農寵這些相關的配套把它整進來然後還有公共設施的錢那麼跟委員報告如果要做這些除了錢之外我個人認為還要忍"},{"start":6854.881,"end":6867.076,"text":"沒有錯因為量很大而且還要專業的培育每個村莊都會有不同的狀況這個在我們的國土署裡面教育訓練這些東西我們都有規劃都在去做努力跟相關部分"},{"start":6868.262,"end":6888.251,"text":"還是需要各部會的一起協助這部分我們一定配合所有的部會一起努力把這個永續跟繁榮的農村把它找回來謝謝好謝謝國土署那我們再請農業部是非常感謝總召這個指教其實我們是總召召委召委的這個指教其實這個"},{"start":6892.052,"end":6908.892,"text":"國土計畫法裡面有城鄉發展區,還有農業發展區,農業發展區的農事,就是剛才委員你在說的,這個部分是我們在農業部,我們的農村再生有在做的。另外就是城鄉發展區裡面,城二那裡,就是鄉村區,它是鄉村,但是不是農業,這也是鄉村區。"},{"start":6912.216,"end":6930.806,"text":"所以這大概一半去分布 我覺得這比較有必要的跨部會的整合 由國會出來因為我們現在在做什麼 我們在做就是農村再生 培根計畫 或者是把它合訂然後對地方的公共建設 還有這些跨域的整合 還有教育訓練等等市長 你剛才有說到城鄉區跟農業發展區但是我覺得 就我要跟你指教的啦 我覺得你講的是現況"},{"start":6938.703,"end":6958.21,"text":"就是現況它就是它以現況去變 它現在這樣去改變 可是現在現況就是很糟糕啊就是我講的啊 那個蒸頭 聖保羅庸蒸頭一樣的我再比一下 我們如果有一個叫極限村 永閒村 極限什麼叫極限就是那裡老闆65歲以上的 超過一半 超過50%都是65歲以上的"},{"start":6962.951,"end":6983.723,"text":"那個部落 都沒有一位要出生所以那個部落的一個整個生命力沒有了好 如果我是在一個村莊的人我跟你說我們六角出了三個署長侯友宜署長 陳國恩署長還有一個比較早的 比較早的廖正豪廖正豪出這麼多老人"},{"start":6984.964,"end":7005.449,"text":"出這麼多老人的地方就算我拿著一筆錢想要說我一定要把我的政壇待遇復甦沒辦法啦因為老人就沒配合你啦所以現在國土局法會被人家罵咧就是你們只是把現況換個名字這個現況換一個名字才會被罵嘛因為沒有改變嘛"},{"start":7006.96,"end":7019.331,"text":"你聽我的意思嗎我知道我知道 那個所有管沒辦法套我現在是說我們用這六天要套這件事情所以好 我現在具體建議啦第一個 我認為說我們要有一個六年計畫剛才說 因為你要每一個村莊你要叫他們去幾位那裡要有那些人 製作要有一群人來遊說 我們來參加鄉村重新規劃他們要登出來"},{"start":7033.223,"end":7040.088,"text":"他們要投出來 秩序也要投50%出來嘛相關要50% 這50%要怎麼投出來這要有一群人 要有這群人去那裡操縱我們就要有所謂的一個預算所以這六年計畫你們這三個單位應該是要由國發會整合剩下農業部跟我們內政部"},{"start":7054.502,"end":7071.932,"text":"六年計劃,要有一筆錢,你就看台灣有多少寶玉,你就除以六,大概一年,需要我們來輔導多多少已經失去生活機能的鄉村,讓他去做鄉規,就要有錢,因為你要訓練這些人,第二,我剛才說的,你要有一筆基金,"},{"start":7076.936,"end":7093.703,"text":"開始讓這裡的氣氛 沒路用的氣氛 開始修修回來 修越多 未來我們鄉歸內這一個村莊它才會有更多道路的地方要有公共設施保留地正好裡面也要進去種一個小公園這樣也比較有生態"},{"start":7097.865,"end":7126.183,"text":"所以你要有公共設施保留地 你要有可以做太陽枯的間諜在那邊藝學館也可以在那裡做生意這個鄉村才會活起來啊所以這兩件事我拜託你們要有一個進度至少現階段三個月內你們能不能先把所謂鄉規我們理想中的鄉村長什麼樣子的範本先把它"},{"start":7127.088,"end":7142.194,"text":"先把它拉出來給我們看好不好好謝謝這件事是不是這個範本的事情我們會一起努力不過那個國務組這邊是主管機關是不是三個月內三個月內未來走向最後的一個範本"},{"start":7145.034,"end":7159.783,"text":"委員垂詢的部分的高度跟戰略性非常高啦三個月因為我這也不是非常高啦我的意思是說這就是要開始下去處理了嘛我也沒有說這一時三刻有辦法的總是我們先把整個風雲抓出來"},{"start":7161.784,"end":7182.238,"text":"一起開會可以嗎?好啦,我再來辦公廳會啦,可是你們就是要,不然你們至少把現在有在走鄉規的,就我知道有六十幾個嘛是你們把它都整理出來,然後每一個鄉規完,他們的這個政策,他們的間諜怎麼重新調整,他們的路怎麼圍,我們要看,大家拿出來看一下"},{"start":7186.03,"end":7201.194,"text":"趕快整理啦 不要嘗試啦 這本來就是要整理的 要不然怎麼輔導別人去做你應該 現在已經有成功 也許做了沒很成功的事情也是一個範本大家拿出來看 要不然我去輔導新的團隊出來啊"},{"start":7203.41,"end":7218.498,"text":"好不好 你如果這個都不走出來基本上這六年會變成空蕩蕩的六年啦 六年後大家也是新的一輩子 為了反省我們這裡大家不在這裡 也新的一輩子說20年20年10年謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝蔡育召委好"},{"start":7233.837,"end":7235.426,"text":"那我們下一位請陳超明委員質詢"},{"start":7245.941,"end":7267.911,"text":"主席好 首先有請我們農業部副市長我們那個國化會我們澎湖執委還有我們內政部國土管理使我們的習副市長好 那以上幾位委員長早安早安 第一個啦"},{"start":7269.963,"end":7290.494,"text":"我向你請教一下,那個副市長,你以前住在哪裡?小時候?台南?台南、中華還是哪裡?中華,我住在台南你住過四合院嗎?有啊,我們都三合院,我不是四合院三合院,好,那個彭富主委?是"},{"start":7291.394,"end":7301.943,"text":"阿你不讀四合院嗎?我有讀過,因為...你是建築師在台東,我外公家是三合院我們的市副市長我讀基隆你讀國際的嗎?基隆民,七度七度,我讀過三合院、四合院嗎?我為什麼會問這個問題?"},{"start":7317.577,"end":7340.069,"text":"其實剛剛我們趙薇講的,我非常肯定,而且很認同,跟我今天問的都是一樣,第一,村落裡面,以前的人都怕分家丟面子,結果那幾代一直傳下來,都沒有辦法解決。所以你要把鄉村的一個提升它的韌性,我告訴你,不是自己說的一樣,"},{"start":7341.254,"end":7346.959,"text":"不然大家都在空口講白話講一講 講給農民高興 講給誰高興那都不是做事情的方式我對這個問題 我要來彭斯委副市長"},{"start":7360.899,"end":7386.14,"text":"你跟我們的鄉村基路你集團要用七段徵收依照那個面積要有多大包括公共設施要重新劃定下來沒有那個路消防車都進不去那個騎腳踏車才能進去這都我們面臨的問題衛生的環境非常差我們就是進步的國家我們一點在鄉村也不進步所以我告訴你"},{"start":7387.782,"end":7410.901,"text":"你要百變這鄉村肌肉,你都要去給器官蒸熟了,跟這裡的人說土地換土地,你才有辦法成功,這第一步一定要有這樣的想法那我今天為什麼這麼講我們國土事務司長你們一定要配合尤其農業部他非常擔心農運團體講話,戶外農事長不用怕啦,台灣的土地還要很多"},{"start":7415.385,"end":7441.051,"text":"你要真的改造農村好就剛剛我講的第一步包括我們稍微講的基金要成立起來第二步我跟你講你現在看到幾個會遛毒以外的那個交流道的地區或是中藥聯絡的地區都是在鄉村區裡面你要去改變這個觀念現在這些人沒有錢"},{"start":7444.249,"end":7465.857,"text":"小地址、大電農,那這些都是做人看的,一些有這樣的情形,你應該在交流到那個地方要特別劃幾個地區跟鄉村區互相應用,你才有辦法提升鄉村的韌性但是你現在看我們高速公路聯絡,重要的聯絡道路都在農村區都不能動"},{"start":7467.177,"end":7476.348,"text":"第二你要怎麼活啊?因為交通現在變成人生必須的共進,你只要交通方便,大家都會援助回來。還有一點,人往高處跑,水往地處流,你交通不便,他要去外國參加還是要回家。"},{"start":7488.217,"end":7505.326,"text":"他只有有賺錢的機會只要生活過得好很多人回來鄉村可以把都市的人口拿過來所以就換了一個大的錯誤都市計畫內的農業道路六都的農業都市計畫農業區都可以改為建築"},{"start":7506.331,"end":7525.739,"text":"建地 商業用地 溫泉跟土地怎麼要蓋在那等一下說講人口不夠 哪裡不夠你沒有製造好的環境所以要過來這個要大膽嘗試 要大刀剋武我不曉得聽了這幾句話 你們鄉村長大你們的感受如何 跟我講一下這樣我說的你聽得懂嗎有清楚嗎"},{"start":7533.292,"end":7558.642,"text":"我沒有選擇,你也跟我說一下,大家跟我說過,我沒有辦法判斷你這樣有選擇當時管,我都沒有管去做這個,這是內政部的管我跟你說,當時你要協調,很多都是在農業部擋掉啦我按外公社委,我們十幾年的民意代表,這個問題常常存在彭副主委、胡處長"},{"start":7560.715,"end":7581.372,"text":"還有我們的副市長真的要去溝通協調沒有一次成功的以前還有農村再生還有地方創生但是這些都是電話死你真的改造農村你一定要想好策略農村改造就像都市的都更一樣"},{"start":7583.035,"end":7610.399,"text":"你可以各種狀況去設定如何跟生態配合這樣我們討論想不出來做得出來我覺得彭副主委這個責任很重大我想你以建築師出身為什麼請你來當副主委這跟地方暢生農村再生最重要土地的管理是在我們內政部國土管理室這邊所以三個要密切的配合才能把這個達成有沒有信心"},{"start":7611.767,"end":7636.261,"text":"我是很有信心啦我是很有信心,但是...二體的話,我們覺得可以嘛大家一起密切配合,然後...真的要這樣,不然你不能夠體啊,綁手綁腳不敢大刀剋斧,你農村再...農村提升什麼改造農村都不好真的要用新的思維去做啊,在這,國土計畫吧,再給我一下澳門農業縣85%"},{"start":7639.921,"end":7659.396,"text":"四山坡頂 阿堤修環坡阿我直接 我要特別跟農業部講你們那時候有一個 那個叫農水什麼?蓋農社的那個 蓋農社 蓋農社喔 那個農村局農田水 水保署啦不是不是 那個農水署跟不是 跟農社的鄉鎮啦 那不是你們在說的"},{"start":7671.207,"end":7694.298,"text":"農事的興建是我們去補啦,去補沒有啦,那有的你農業部裡面你管農要補喔,那一個資源永續利用,那是我們發明啦不是資源永續利用,我現在在總科我看一看苗栗縣85%的山坡地,我們一塊地三千平,換你們台北市的一公尺,十平換不去你說有比較嗎?這有公平嗎?"},{"start":7698.2,"end":7706.124,"text":"我覺得六都的市長也沒有什麼好他靠土地變更來賺錢的他一變更的話幾十億 幾十億的收入 那多好我們的鄉村其實叫做廢落 六都叫鄉村區"},{"start":7713.632,"end":7731.791,"text":"我常常在想苗栗縣的地方環境比較特殊它是地區環坡我一直在講您好,我來做成為一個地區環坡示範區你看到美國高級社區的話都是在地區環坡裡面這樣做出來"},{"start":7733.369,"end":7749.766,"text":"你看全政策就是在這樣地區環波做出來現在在山頂沒水、沒工人、沒人去做事一片荒蕪在那一邊你們給人家報索說今天農運團體抗爭沒水夠人家、沒米人家我們糧食生產過剩現在請說山頂沒人要去做"},{"start":7757.785,"end":7786,"text":"所以我在苗栗縣一直要推遲一個地區環保但是我發現本市長這裏就有一條農舍用地應既行配置以農地之地界線及臨街道路那是北京的農舍改善你山坡地怎麼可以這樣規範再來要兼備給你們改善但特殊地形者中央並沒有定義什麼叫做特殊地形者"},{"start":7786.957,"end":7809.687,"text":"你來新的本領要帶動啦人把人已經地球環保做到很好地了 外國都用地球環保是保底捏你正在限制我們農民使用現在沒人敢 越來越軟 還有農民耕種 還要種什麼食材要種 那都好笑 我要剪得漂亮高單價的東西不可以嗎"},{"start":7810.663,"end":7814.248,"text":"市長我不是跟你計較啦 我已經摸了很多了嘛我一直在強調這一點 您給我定義清楚"},{"start":7827.265,"end":7852.959,"text":"我們地方來頂頂自治法規我一家五十家一百家我有地方去開路水保都做得好你現在不用怕大家煩惱水保的問題自己的房子自己蓋水保他比誰還更重視你們都沒有煩惱一下排水系統都給你做得很好啊你為什麼這樣懷疑百姓因為你政府你給他限制你不要怕農營團體"},{"start":7854.8,"end":7865.971,"text":"現在農民整個財產都沒有,你限制到這裡去我是很良心真心的講我現在農業部這一條我還未再圖出來你那個"},{"start":7869.62,"end":7898.502,"text":"農村農舍的興建尤其我們地區環坡我帶你去看真的很漂亮尤其苗栗特殊台北下來40分鐘就到苗栗30分鐘到每個地方去這個是最好失散人口的地區像我天天搭高鐵上來又回去很近你老爸用這個觀念你用全國統一的一個思想每一個地方的地理環境不一樣啊"},{"start":7900.745,"end":7909.325,"text":"朋友之會 山坡地的這些我真的你跟農村改造這個都要改變公民路來都沒錢了"},{"start":7910.78,"end":7932.161,"text":"的確應該要因地制宜啦因為委員這苗栗比較多是散春嘛所以那個村落的狀態跟南部譬如說那個昭緯這邊他們嘉義這邊就比較集村所以村落的所有跟昭緯講給我多講一點他那邊也有那個地球環坡的山坡的地方也有他比較有山坡地那邊也有你那邊是哪裡"},{"start":7934.469,"end":7961.537,"text":"你還憑什麼跟我闖瘓我現在說什麼來那邊但是這個我一定要改進是我希望農業部要支持也希望國土署你們要喊我怎麼樣就要靠近路邊就要寄生的方針你整天都在想什麼我跟你講這個改造成功你要種什麼食材水果大家種的一定會變成農工隊出來把你地方弄得很漂亮"},{"start":7962.93,"end":7975.971,"text":"你如果要跟我說好要再叫你們做你們怕農運團你罵那都沒有種田的人在講話哪比在主會種田的你們這個政府真的要改進你剛才這個看法怎麼樣"},{"start":7978.944,"end":7990.757,"text":"現在國土計畫法是各縣市政府按照地方的發展需求每五年可以同盤檢討那如果認為有必要的話可以去做相關的規劃因為我們地區環保占85%你來看來很漂亮"},{"start":7994.281,"end":8021.336,"text":"真的很漂亮你去的話 你想說在苗栗圍上 到台北 到台中都會很近臺灣就在掃紙化 去一個飯廚 要賣什麼啊還是要做白粽那個退休的路人家有錢人 人家好人 什麼要賣 什麼人要拿回大鐵大廚的 讓給年輕人我們老人就在這邊 要看身子坐著高鐵上去所以這就跟觀念大家不一樣要賣給什麼人我們要收賣我們要站在"},{"start":8024.197,"end":8035.466,"text":"國土長治久安的立場你國土長治久安你把山坡定給都市人禮拜一到禮拜五登峰久定他們在賺錢他們在台北"},{"start":8037.034,"end":8066.28,"text":"在那個地啊你把我鄉下禮拜六禮拜天給他們去散步看秋山綠水啊我們得到什麼有啦休閒農業你休閒農業哎喲你思維要改啦這也是一種方向我們做散步地不可以像我這樣適度的開花這涉及到國土保安啦這國家的國土保安的話不差這一塊啦我講真的啦環境會比原來保持的更好啊"},{"start":8067.386,"end":8091.253,"text":"你怎麼常常在國土保安我們要站在公平正義啦我這就叫做公平正義嗎不是你告訴我都市 六都的都市內的農業區一直在改變變更多的自採區 商業區他們在賺錢 其他人要做農奴 去整理 整齊 再讓人家吃飯你為什麼不用這樣反悔"},{"start":8093.223,"end":8116.119,"text":"一個市委去判斷你都在顧主席人欸不然這樣整個越來越丟臉 越丟臉我主席管不了啦 抱歉你主席管不了 我跟你說怎樣整個衝就好了啦不然你這個保證叫我來做啦我真的講 觀念的市委要改變嘛我現在跟你說我們已經受到不公平的待遇了"},{"start":8122.932,"end":8149.124,"text":"啊你怎麼說這樣社會要改變啊就是不叫農地不要給我變農興都還好嗎那以前農地它現在怎麼可以變為住宅區、商業區去獨立、去暴力為什麼房價會差了那麼多為什麼會少數化所以我今天講齁你這個觀念不變大家平等不合我只在問你一句話"},{"start":8151.141,"end":8175.788,"text":"那什麼六都裡面的都市計畫類的農業區為什麼每一個人都在變?那不是天之教主嗎?問題不是六都的人,不是都市的農業區都要變沒有,都市計畫地區如果是農業區要變,也有相關的規範我知道有相關的規範,你跟我講都市在變我現在跟你講,講憑真理嘛"},{"start":8178.208,"end":8206.822,"text":"一樣的你幫我留下來重點什麼都不能變大家公平你如果這樣思維你講話我一直很不滿這一點所謂的鄉村區我現在跟你指名就是灰六都叫做鄉村區你們都偏向有選票六都越多的地方你們越重視你們哪裡在關心鄉村區關心灰六都的"},{"start":8209.659,"end":8232.625,"text":"我這個一定堅持,這個是叫做不公平生意國土保安大家都會去做一樣的國土保安,六都跟會六都的都要一樣你們只顧他們賺錢,六省的要整個人挖港口怎麼他們可以變,我們都不能變連四都的利用都不可以還有一個是"},{"start":8234.722,"end":8260.069,"text":"現在都市的房價會高把這一些開放出來自然的房價就降低了台灣不需要那麼多米以前你糧食生產過剩了天天再講糧食安全以前的觀念帶來現在現在的糧食你們一人成名多少你們外銷虧損多少你拿去你去做那個照明做了多少"},{"start":8263.056,"end":8287.577,"text":"這個觀念要改啊 不能這樣稀稀地啊 好不好 謝謝好 我給你兩倍的時間 好 感謝好 那我們下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢那賴委員質詢後 我們是不是休息十分鐘 讓觀點人休息一下"},{"start":8288.766,"end":8312.059,"text":"好 謝謝召委 請彭副主委跟主計總署的黃處長好 請副主委跟黃處長副主委 請教你區域均衡發展 城鄉發展 這個很重要那我先問一下 這一次藍白所主導的這個採劃法的修法我認為其他擴大的縱北青藍的這個狀況"},{"start":8313.08,"end":8329.592,"text":"甚至有很多縣市中南部縣市會實質的補助會減少那我們看到從初估的數字裡面特別是拿到416億而高雄拿到245億這個差距相當大那台南只拿到163億而在征服裡面的時候"},{"start":8330.353,"end":8352.814,"text":"台南高雄最低 49不到50那台南是50.4包括在縣的部分屏東縣也增幅也只有109也是最少的所以從這一次這個修法我個人認為這會讓縱北青南的狀況更加的嚴重我們長期以來希望南北均衡發展讓台灣是一個好的一個整體的發展但是這次的裁要法修法我認為是這樣的發展"},{"start":8354.415,"end":8382.853,"text":"副主委你認同我的看法嗎是 我認同委員的看法但是我們現在做這個大南方新矽谷其實也是試圖從產業面跟生活生活圈的改善配套措施的改善來嘗試著去做彌補對 但是這樣的採劃法的修法事實上是造成了更加的重北侵難光台北直接拿到416億甚至原先在修法的時候我看到原來國民黨黨團版本還有首都直接加3%"},{"start":8383.974,"end":8387.697,"text":"副主委你同意這種看法嗎首都直接加3%台北直接加3%這合理嗎對"},{"start":8390.816,"end":8408.474,"text":"合理還不合理 你認同嗎不合理不合理嗎如果是這樣的話 那首都 那一來高雄那高雄馬上直接加3% 對不對就是說台北已經佔盡了相當多優勢我們盡量努力的減緩南部就是鄉村往城市集中減緩南部往北部集中這個趨勢了結果這樣的採劃法 反而加劇了這樣一個趨勢我們認為這個是有很有嚴重的問題的"},{"start":8414.54,"end":8435.077,"text":"副署委同意這樣的看法嗎對對對所以我們對我們要從另外一個角度是這個部分可能我希望後面的部分到我們努力的各種方式來做處理啦但是無論如何將來一定還是要把它努力再平衡回來不然對於這個南北之間的差距會持續擴大我們再來看一下114年度中央對於地方的補助款一般性的是2051億然後"},{"start":8439.54,"end":8441.761,"text":"這個計劃性的是2914億2501億跟2911億總數是5412億但是5412億其實就有3753億被拿走了那整個補助款實質上是減少了69%這個下一頁只是減少了69%那"},{"start":8466.4,"end":8494.468,"text":"那個副主委或者主席總署這邊同意這樣的看法嗎可能組總這邊會比較更明確一點五千是國家的財源就這麼財餅就這麼大嘛那你本來你補助下去是五千四百一十二億不管是一般型或計劃型就這麼多你現在被切出去切到的地方切出了三千七百五十三億那你未來除非你能夠長出更多新的財源但是有找到其他的"},{"start":8495.714,"end":8517.831,"text":"固定性的裁員 不然你的餅就是這麼大而已你一定是勢必將來會影響到補助嘛 所以行政院才會說有些部分要稍微暫緩 就是50%要暫緩嘛是這樣的影響嘛 是嘛所以這樣的狀況下 以高雄來看的話 它原先的今年度有687億的一個補助款如果照著這個新的藍白通過的裁判法的話 它會減少"},{"start":8519.092,"end":8535.944,"text":"刪掉69%的話 我會減少474億 只剩下213億也就是說 即使你這個裁要法表面上講 你增加了245億但是因為你從中央拿走了69%之後 實質上高雄會減少了229億副主委這樣公平嗎 這樣對高雄公平嗎"},{"start":8542.421,"end":8549.366,"text":"不怎麼公平是不是有比較詳細的說明嗎那個主席總書記要不要說明一下"},{"start":8550.571,"end":8576.183,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們剛剛在提到就是這次財劃法的修正要釋出這個財源3753億的部分那這個部分怎麼來做處理因為相關的我們行政院這邊會會同相關部會還有地方政府再進一步去做我希望將來要公平的對待好不好就是因為還有政府還是有些調配的比例我現在講的是完全"},{"start":8577.435,"end":8601.013,"text":"一視同仁那個啦但現在整個財化法修起來是重北輕南那未來的部分我還希望中央對於中南部的支持不能夠減少啦不要讓這個差距不斷的持續來擴大但我們希望有機會把這個財化法重新再修回來啦因為這個財化法其實過得非常的衝突其實照理說這樣子為什麼過去這20幾年來沒辦法修過其實在過去馬英九總統時代想要修也修不過啊為什麼 因為"},{"start":8601.893,"end":8624.727,"text":"難度很高你要整合中央跟地方整合各縣市找到一個公平的很不容易所以很難取得共識所以必須要好好溝通硬是用這樣強行的通過我認為是眾北親南甚至眾南親綠裡面我看藍營的縣市其實都比綠營縣市來的好這樣充滿了政治性的一個修法這絕對是買下了台灣競爭力未來一個很大的一個貨端"},{"start":8625.427,"end":8641.927,"text":"我認為對於整個區域經濟發展對台灣競爭力都是一個負面的影響所以我們希望未來有機會再把它重新調回來好好的討論財化法該討論但是不是用這種粗暴的方式直接通過對於中南部更加不利對於其他的一些縣市更加不利"},{"start":8642.868,"end":8667.982,"text":"好謝謝 那因為時間很有限 我再問一下謝謝主委總處長可以休息一下離島建設基金原來的時候這個電價的部分因為都是用發電的部分那當時有欠了1000億就是要給台電 現在台電很辛苦現在又要忙又要忙 不吃草不喝水現在還要台電能夠穩健經營下去這個1000億的部分有沒有可能歸還給歸電給台電"},{"start":8671.224,"end":8700.664,"text":"是那個跟委員報告現在因為我們也有跟這個經濟部這邊有就是討論過其實現在我們大家共同的看法就是還是希望能夠透過這個追加預算然後由立法院這邊來做審議所以大概也不是走離島基金這樣的一個方式那離島基金其實在過去它已經含榮在那個1000億裡面的一些額度裡面"},{"start":8701.644,"end":8730.401,"text":"實際上在討論這個部分其實我們還是希望183年度所以如果當時的政府因為他油價的上漲因為我們禁止他調漲台電調漲電價而導致他的虧損那如果中央因為這幾年經營狀況不錯有盈餘的部分補助給他的時候那整體的思考也在裡面了所以用這樣的方式是最好的方式但是如果在藍白所多數的國會仍然遲遲的不支持的狀況下的時候"},{"start":8731.061,"end":8748.726,"text":"那這樣一千億要不要還如果你全部都不給的話你全部都不給他錢又不給他漲電價然後那欠這一千億那是不是應該審慎思考對所以我們還是期待就是因為立法院的刪減是不是能夠再請立法院大院這邊能夠再我們希望副主委還是要審慎思考"},{"start":8749.346,"end":8772.959,"text":"那最後一個也謝謝啟京的部分地方創生我覺得主委包括過去的總主委都很支持大家很支持啟京地方創生請加速推動但是我還是要提醒除了啟京的地方創生之外包括比較山區的東高雄這邊的從祁山美濃六龜甲仙山林內門茂林桃園辣馬下人口都是不斷在流失的"},{"start":8773.519,"end":8798.826,"text":"因為他的交通不便因為他產業發展比較不容易所以人口一直在流失我希望國發會加大力道來協助東高雄這些的部分好不好我們持續在輔導當中一方面地方創生協助一方面應該支持更多的交通建設進去讓他進出更便利才能夠把人口留下來那另外一方面產業也要支持進去讓東高雄比較靠近山區的這邊的鄉親不用一定要離開他們的這個"},{"start":8801.027,"end":8819.275,"text":"居住地點而必須要到城市或者到中北部才有比較好的機會我希望國發會要加大這個力道交通建設產業建設跟地方創生是三條三支箭都要並行好嗎好謝謝副主席好謝謝賴瑞榮委員那我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":8869.514,"end":8869.874,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9111.903,"end":9113.155,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":9224.855,"end":9231.679,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":9254.316,"end":9254.399,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9431.152,"end":9458.579,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那下一位請 已經有經過十分鐘完整休息 現在戰力十足的邱志偉委員發言沒有休息十分鐘 我戰力更更大 不減 絲毫不減"},{"start":9459.892,"end":9488.327,"text":"但是不管戰力再多強這個論證還是要以理這個行政立法互相尊重但是監督的角色還是不能改變但是監督的過程一定要很理性這個不能咆哮不能噴口水不能問一些這個國家機密我先請教這個農業部我們胡市長好 請農業部那也要控制分配"},{"start":9491.886,"end":9503.478,"text":"禮職要契合啦不能禮職氣壯禮職要契合委員好這個五分鐘先開始這個昨天有一個人問問說這個我們的公糧儲備"},{"start":9507.834,"end":9530.143,"text":"我們大家都知道工廠儲備會有動態性的檢討那一般大概是8萬到10萬之間您當過農糧署署長所以我們工廠儲備大概一定的SOP大概是7萬到10萬左右那未來有沒有可能會增加"},{"start":9531.849,"end":9556.754,"text":"這個儲備的量其實我們一直都超過我們本來安全存量一年是30萬但是像目前的話是75.7萬已經將近8個月就是只有公糧部包括民間的存糧量沒有問題量的儲備我想這個行之有年而且我想農業部是這方面專業但是你相關的配售點"},{"start":9558.539,"end":9587.265,"text":"當然是國家機密啊對對不對對這是國安的問題這個國家安全這個糧食也是國家安全啊是國家安全物資如果有個人發文跟你要發文跟你要你會不會同意如果是國會議員的話我們會用密件因為如果按照那個是可以供應給國會議員的話我們當然也要給但是要用密件處理你要用極機密處理好喔對你這個"},{"start":9589.112,"end":9613.009,"text":"這個怕他們馬上就習近平那邊有一份所以你們在處理這些的資料的時候要相當謹慎是相當謹慎這個不要說他一個一個公文給你你就一個一個密字件的公文很多對你應該要把它更高層級如果如果他把這資料外洩"},{"start":9614.312,"end":9638.59,"text":"他有沒有相關的責任?當然有所以我是提醒你如果他後續又給你邀資料你們要小心應對喔是 謝謝你的提醒千萬不能把這個呃配售的點的資料啊我要這個對岸敵對勢力又拿一份這個萬萬 我萬萬不行喔我們不能接受齁對好那這個所謂的"},{"start":9640.035,"end":9665.791,"text":"農村再生計畫是預算有沒有受到影響我們當然受到影響影響多少我們本來在三年前我們當時是給我們一千多個農村是八萬八億對不起兩年前是六億那去年是十一億那到目前到今年我們才撥出去1.7億所以事實上受到相當有沒有受到財化化的影響"},{"start":9667.231,"end":9689.643,"text":"會受到影響影響受到影響目前我們還沒有辦法 但是我們現在只能夠撥一半那這個 這一檔動山的影響是這比喻算減少多少會減少大概有4到5億左右4到5億那你現在只剩4到5億來做相關的農村再生計畫是今年比前幾年大概只剩一半對"},{"start":9691.598,"end":9697.69,"text":"那你要怎麼推動農村再生計畫所以我們就把過去啊已經我們目前已經"},{"start":9698.894,"end":9721.846,"text":"合訂的這些農村的社區有1084個那當中啊 尤其我們輔導了好幾年的話我們就暫時那一些就就由我們培根計畫通過這些計畫本來已經都準備好了大家有一些這個農村已經在申請了對不對 已合訂了因為被凍山林就沒有辦法撥下去他就沒辦法執行嘛 對不對對 我們就要選擇比較當初我當初我審查農業撥育論這筆經費是無意全數通過喔"},{"start":9727.229,"end":9752.091,"text":"對,一直都是這樣子簡烈數是零,山東數是零這非常感謝在經濟委員會我們有各黨派的立委在就莫名其妙在草野學生被幾個完全沒有來過經濟委員會的我不曉得是誰,我不方便講講了我就生氣了他完全不曉得農村的需求就大筆一揮隨便亂砍你蔡奇愛在那邊發脾氣"},{"start":9754.349,"end":9778.443,"text":"沒有經過這個思考就情緒性、報復性這樣子煽動預算我覺得未來立法院預算審查制度要改經濟委員會中心主主義一定要確實到位要把委員會通過的這個預算決議沒有除非保留到院會處理預算在委員會通過就不能再更改了"},{"start":9780.379,"end":9793.559,"text":"結果我們通過預算在抄襲上莫名被改的這個面目全非淪為預算淪為暴政治報復或者政治鬥爭的一個工具受害的是所有的人民的對對"},{"start":9795.222,"end":9807.534,"text":"所以我覺得相關的預算層的制度要改你一定要落實這個委員會中心準時間夠了嗎沒有 還有一分鐘好啦 市長謝謝來那個國安會"},{"start":9813.277,"end":9835.573,"text":"國安會副主委今天您跟高副主委這個編分兩路是就是說行政院的台美經貿小組來因應川普的相關貿易的這個作為包括關稅是這個貴會是誰代表是主委代表還是您還是高是主委跟高副所以你對這部分比較不了解"},{"start":9836.877,"end":9843.024,"text":"我當然看到相關的報告就是說你們要看美國對其他我們主要的貿易競爭國的相關的關稅的狀況"},{"start":9848.686,"end":9877.526,"text":"像說台灣如果用貿易加權平均關稅台灣是1.7 美國是2.2那日本是1.9 南韓是8.4那中國是3如果用簡單平均明目關稅的話台灣是6.5 美國是3.3日本是3.7南韓是13.4你們有沒有經過沙盤推演他比較這個美國可能用貿易加權平均關稅還是用簡單平均明目關稅來作為一個這個相關貿易手段"},{"start":9878.366,"end":9907.037,"text":"是 這個跟委員報告因為委員都要求我們要很精準的回答是不是容我再整理一些資料再跟委員報告沒關係啦 我等一下去財政問你們好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 那另外啊一個 因為我通常都很準時但是今天我們招委特別容許我再多講兩分鐘啊是這個我還沒有講 不過我現在容許了謝謝 謝謝萬分感謝我下次當招我再還給你"},{"start":9908.772,"end":9923.938,"text":"那個離島售電差額這個部分離島基金呢離島基金你們未來要怎麼樣去看待離島基金會不會撥補台電你們這個國會有沒有立場這個今天執密離島是離島是對是我們國土對你未來這個會不會由離島基金來售電來補貼"},{"start":9937.392,"end":9956.606,"text":"目前還是希望就是說用最佳預算把一千億又透過如果最佳預算又沒過呢目前的狀態是這樣子那我覺得我覺得按照這個目前這個藍白的策略他們不會過不會過你們會不會考慮用離島基金來撥會嗎對那因為"},{"start":9962.748,"end":9979.608,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說因為原來這個要追加這個一千億裡面其實已經包含了好幾項不同的差價尤其是加上離島的它其實也放在那個追加的預算裡面你不能否認這是一個方案選項之一嘛 對不對"},{"start":9980.683,"end":9993.609,"text":"這是一個選項之一嘛如果不是選項他不會拿出來討論嘛那你這個順位順位是應該是如果順位還是以最佳預算來處理的話那如果不成的話這是不是一個選項"},{"start":9996.28,"end":10013.395,"text":"這個可能還要好幾個國會在演繹目前沒有辦法直接跟你們回答我想很多事情也不能勉強回答你不太清楚的事情大南方新矽谷的推動方案在我們經濟發展會議總統主持經濟發展會議這些各分區的計畫是誰來做管考"},{"start":10020.02,"end":10044.506,"text":"目前大南方新矽谷我們是請國科會這邊在做主導所以像明天可能就會開一個是國科會國發會是在統合六大就是我們整個的六大的產業對所以你針對大南方新矽谷是我跟那個蔡宇都一起在這個大南方新矽谷裡面是所以主政還是國科會"},{"start":10046.03,"end":10056.999,"text":"是 主政是國科會那我們是在匆忙協助推動整個的推動方案好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員好那我們下一位請謝怡鳳召委好 謝謝主席我想要請國發會的副主委"},{"start":10074.534,"end":10098.49,"text":"好請國發會副主委你們國發會說要促進中張投的這個精密智慧新核心那請問這個需要跨部會的合作然後以及要給予就是精密工業精密機械產業有新的技術那你們要怎麼做是"},{"start":10101.417,"end":10113.206,"text":"目前這個是由經濟部主政然後整個方案目前在行政院不是你們也有嗎?你們說要組什麼經濟機械的團隊嗎?整體的一個發展那當然在推動方面我們也會積極的促進經濟部跟相關的部會一起來做整合團隊的那個進行的如何?"},{"start":10126.189,"end":10151.083,"text":"目前好像方案還在行政院方案還在行政院經濟部他們已經有年齡了那方案還在行政院所以整合不順利目前不順利是嗎 進一步的中部對我們所有部會其實基本上都會參與到所有的這個六大產業跟生活圈的計畫那"},{"start":10155.237,"end":10174.156,"text":"對 目前已經有整合了就是而且我們也開過我們也為了就是國發會這邊也為了精密中藏雲頭的精密智慧新核心也開過一次的整合會議那那次我們也特別有特別請那個經濟部這邊能夠後續能夠接手然後把這些後續的主政的事務接下去"},{"start":10174.736,"end":10191.721,"text":"除了技術以外還有就是人力勞工的問題我們知道去年底的這個人力調查看到了就是工業及服務業的工作職缺6個月以上的缺工數有高達6.6萬個那其中"},{"start":10195.282,"end":10216.971,"text":"以我們中階技術的層次最高是怎樣缺工的人口數是缺工的勞工數是4萬個那在這個缺工又沒有技術然後在整合不力的情況下我們的中張頭的精密智慧新核心要怎麼進行"},{"start":10222.079,"end":10248.002,"text":"我們在做這個盤點的時候基本上我們也去整合了尤其是勞動部還有各個不同的人力需求那包含了跟譬如說教育部這邊能夠有的可能培養出來的人才然後跟我們可能對外能夠找到多少的人力那甚至移工我們都有去做討論但是目前這個資料就是說"},{"start":10249.264,"end":10267.764,"text":"有三個做法一個就是人才培育一個就是本國的勞動力用本國勞動力來調補補師那另外就是找跨國的勞動力可是在本國的勞動力我就說你們在協調的時候跟勞動部協調的時候其實我們從過去幾次的缺工的這樣子的經驗看起來就是勞動"},{"start":10269.525,"end":10286.517,"text":"就是說缺工的就是說沒有工作的勞工跟需要工作的勞工是沒有辦法立即性的做替代的那可能需要一個轉介以及非常長的這個職缺的這個那現在目前"},{"start":10287.518,"end":10306.538,"text":"如果就是說即便是在精密機械產業裡面他們也有不同細節的這個技術性的勞工那可以做這個可能做油壓的就不一定可以做模具這相關的這沒有辦法替代那如果今天做油壓的勞工"},{"start":10309.12,"end":10325.565,"text":"目前正在五星價那還有沒有麻煩馬上去替代成為做這個我們模具的呢有沒有辦法那在這個情況下如果我們沒有辦法進行高度替代性的時候我們就沒有辦法解決我們這個產業缺工的問題啊那這怎麼處理"},{"start":10328.996,"end":10354.915,"text":"是 當然這個跟我們的人才的訓練還有轉型就是說原來的工作跟不同的工作之間他們怎麼樣去做這些專業訓練的養成我覺得這可能確實是我們可以跟勞動部這邊再做進一步的調節尤其是有技術性的這種中階的勞動需要再訓練是不是 它是沒有辦法只是馬上的進行替代的情況下那你要怎麼處理"},{"start":10355.955,"end":10376.726,"text":"這個部分你們一定要去就是趕快去做準備不然整個我們要做什麼精密機械新核心這個根本看起來在技術以及人才都沒有辦法支援的情況下我相信這是很困難的好不好我們會特別注意這個方面的這個轉就職業之間的轉型怎麼去銜接謝謝我現在再請農業部的次長"},{"start":10387.306,"end":10413.654,"text":"請次長是委員好次長好啊你是農糧出身的對我想要請教你一個問題是就是我們去年啊那個部長跟我說只要今年度的這個口蹄疫拔針豬瘟拔針的時候我們是不是就可以把稻草進口到日本去對那但是要先跟他們談判"},{"start":10414.474,"end":10439.439,"text":"阿現在怎樣 進行得成今年五月的話我們會被WOAH宣布為我們是豬瘟的清淨國本來口提我們早就已經是清淨國了那豬瘟是今年五月預定要宣布宣布之後我們就可以馬上跟日本談那你看咧 情況咧我們非常樂觀因為稻草還有生鮮的豬肉我們都可以賣過去阿蜜咧"},{"start":10440.795,"end":10457.983,"text":"米本來就可以賣了我是說去年喔日本大缺米我們台灣的米我們在台灣我們在提倡就是說不同的米糧那也希望建立品牌我們的米有沒有辦法輸入我們稻米最近這幾年出口到日本是5000到7000公噸"},{"start":10459.904,"end":10479.853,"text":"那今年我們1月2月到3月20號之前我們已經出口了1500公噸所以我們非常樂觀那能不能協助我們將畫有品牌的米能夠輸日是 日本的米它管制得很嚴首先要拿到日本政府的配額配額如果拿不到的話必須要用每一公斤342塊日圓的關稅"},{"start":10483.034,"end":10495.521,"text":"賣給他們所以這樣的話大概相當於台幣77塊左右的關稅那如果拿得到關稅就是跟他們的進口商配額的話我們當然可以出去不過也是相當高的成本"},{"start":10496.511,"end":10522.313,"text":"那什麼樣子降低成本降低成本的話因為今年對啊因為你一定要如果說那今年我們在糧食足夠的情況下那是不是應該替我們的就是稻米的那個農民能夠找到另外一條出路呢可以可以就剛才委員所關心的這個如果彰化的農民的話我們會先幫他驗這個日本要進口的話要驗600多種這個"},{"start":10525.555,"end":10550.786,"text":"農藥還有重金屬的殘留通過的話才可以出去那當然要優先拿到配合 這個我們會來協助商化那邊以前是米倉從清朝以後就非常有名我是說如果就是說在我們國內糧食足夠的情況下那是不是對於希望說做進口出口的這樣子的一個農民可以給予他們這樣子的協助我們會全力協助 這個沒有問題好 謝謝"},{"start":10555.367,"end":10559.709,"text":"好謝謝伊崩召委來下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席有請國發會的副主委請副主委委員"},{"start":10585.709,"end":10593.392,"text":"主委好 副主委好我想要請教一下我們國發會在推動地方政策將134個鄉鎮區列為優先的推動區但是在108年到現在仍有30個整位提案接近三成案子主動撤案或審查未過"},{"start":10611.017,"end":10623.386,"text":"請教一下又過了一年了目前30個案進度如何還有很多的少數的案子主動撤案審查不通過這個是可以說明嗎"},{"start":10625.151,"end":10650.389,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個我們一開始有一個設定就是說有一些優先的鄉村他們是比較偏鄉比較落後然後比較急著需要的那當然那是在一開始我們設定的時候那後來我們有改採另外一個方案叫做多元提案也就是說本來是由鄉鎮公所去提案那當然就會有一個優先順序那後來我們用多元提案的方式就"},{"start":10651.069,"end":10665.12,"text":"讓各個地方政府他們能夠主動的去提案這是第一點那第二點就是說他們在做這個提案裡面其實有時候會成功有時候不一定會成功其實是跟著我們整個的福島的"},{"start":10666.441,"end":10683.013,"text":"團隊然後我們都會有請委員去認真的去所以我們想要知道的是說不是說你的過程如何所以我們要的是效率如何有沒有落實因為我們看到就是沒有落實嘛也沒有達到這個效益所以我們才要去再請教"},{"start":10685.535,"end":10700.006,"text":"那這30幾個地方基本上也有一些有對剩下29個剩下29個是沒有地方創生計畫但是有一些是有我們的青培站因為我們看到就是在110年推動到就是我們青年培力的工作站的計畫因為我本身也是在做社區一直過來的在我們就是我還有"},{"start":10714.177,"end":10722.442,"text":"可以領到就是社區的那個菁英獎所以我覺得對這一塊我很重視因為看到的就是在112年我們已經投入超過4億的這個4億的公帑但是我們是要如何才不會達到說我們投入那麼多錢的效率在哪裡"},{"start":10739.773,"end":10742.937,"text":"還有促成我們真的我們的青年真的回鄉創意還是說就是計畫就是創意就是有這個計畫有這些青年來去回去回鄉但是後續發展呢"},{"start":10755.03,"end":10758.832,"text":"他們真的是成功了嗎?或者是說有在監督嗎?還真正的生根了嗎?這個是有沒有的績效的評估?還是就是只放了給東姐就沒有啊?青年就沒有後續發展,也沒有後續的輔導的績效在哪裡?不會,我們不會東姐就沒有啊,因為這些的"},{"start":10777.761,"end":10801.69,"text":"這些的清培我們希望他們能夠長期就在那邊所以我們把清培的這個過程其實也分了好幾個階段那不同的階段呢譬如說我們有進階組或者是衍生讓他們把他們在那個地方的熱情能夠持續下去那也希望他們繼續對但是我現在要的不是說你在做的過程因為時間有限我要的是說你的績效的評估因為我們沒有看到"},{"start":10802.61,"end":10806.554,"text":"介紹的評估或者後續的發展真的是深耕嗎還有就是說我們因為為了要讓年輕人回到鄉下這個好意但是說他們有深耕嗎還說說地方跟中央就是"},{"start":10819.085,"end":10821.846,"text":"沒有連結就斷層了這樣子我們的這些年輕人好不容易鼓勵他們回去到最後就中央就是說我的計畫結束了也沒有該地方連結這個年輕人也沒辦法去發展我們沒有看到啊根本也不知道不會"},{"start":10837.89,"end":10852.306,"text":"我們有比如說我們有專案辦公室我們有北中南東的輔導中心然後我們有清培其實這個整個的脈絡其實是一直都一直都延續下來的那剛剛有一些如果委員要一些比較量化的一些"},{"start":10853.427,"end":10870.559,"text":"數字的話我們會後再提供給委員但是我有一個比較自信的就是我現場去看到很多的譬如說我們的親朋友或是我們的年輕人其實我看到那邊我發現一件事情就是他們都很有自信的在跟沒錯但是你那個數據或者是說需要去表揚或者讓他們看到或者你們的網站或者網路我們沒有看到說有後續就是成功發展的讓我們覺得說我們這集開了去"},{"start":10883.047,"end":10885.69,"text":"我們會把這些成果再提供給委員那也有一些網站有一些的影片"},{"start":10900.146,"end":10922.726,"text":"其實都是很好的成功案例這個之後我們再提供給委員做參考對 就是因為看到我們在地方創生了以國土屬的計畫也是有一個就是整合 落差的整合但是我們看到就是說依據我們國土計畫的制度設計未來所有的土地使用都要收到就是"},{"start":10924.868,"end":10951.748,"text":"功能分區的管制所以看到目前的規劃就是未來的發展區面積很大所以這個部分的話我們如何讓我們年輕人反省的團隊他們可以應用到還有我們這個規劃落差真的是落實因為我們沒有看到這個部分所以我希望說我們的政府的資源我們要配置"},{"start":10952.569,"end":10956.652,"text":"要經營 還有第二個就是我們產業發展的資源也不足這個部分還有我們的地方的建設還有設備這樣給我們的年輕人回去有夠嗎 我們的監督的評估還有我們的地方的策略 還有我們"},{"start":10972.503,"end":10977.548,"text":"政府中央要連結就是說找不到人接著說這個是誰的在演藝這邊那邊到來我們的年輕人都羞大所以我們希望這個部分我們的國發會這邊有具體的有評估有這個依據所以給我一份"},{"start":10994.584,"end":11007.038,"text":"讓我了解我們要怎麼樣去協助因為在社區跟地方創生跟年輕人這個是我一直都有在跟這個地方的合作好 謝謝委員謝謝 國華會就加強連的時間跟本會委員都一樣來 下一位請吳麗華委員質詢"},{"start":11027.442,"end":11033.084,"text":"謝謝主席有請國土署徐彥新副署長好請副署長委員午安午安我們的國土計劃法在修法之後呢延後了6年所以在國土計劃法的第45條呢也做了這樣的一個修正文字也就是說"},{"start":11055.49,"end":11074.028,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關 要在直轄市縣市國土計畫公告實施後的10年內依中央主管機關指定之日期 以並公告國土功能分區圖所以在這邊先請教一下副署長"},{"start":11075.289,"end":11101.024,"text":"除了南投縣以外21個直轄市縣市政府都已經把國土功能分區圖報請內政部的國土計畫審議委員會來審議那請教一下審了沒有報告我們陸續都在審然後有9個已經審議通過了好 那請教一下那9個審議完成的修正核定之後可以公告嗎 會公告嗎現在我們"},{"start":11104.955,"end":11121.979,"text":"全部一起通告政策是這樣子政策全部一起公告法規也是這樣子定的所以是說10年內公告沒有因為就是現在還有陸續在審的還有你剛剛講的南投所以要全部22個是"},{"start":11125.737,"end":11153.85,"text":"全部審完一併公告那我現在就是要來關心這個問題我請教一下內政部有來核定補助原民地區的鄉村地區這樣的一個經費就是所謂的鄉規從110年度那你們最後一筆113年度的最後一筆呢是仁愛鄉對不對那我請教一下今年會繼續補助嗎"},{"start":11157.378,"end":11174.508,"text":"會繼續會繼續補助那我再請教一下那沒有審議沒有核定國土功能分區那這些鄉村地區整體規劃能執行嗎因為如果還沒通過就是適用區域計畫法的相關的審議跟開發許可的機制那這個機制因為大家都有鄉規那鄉規"},{"start":11176.889,"end":11200.445,"text":"一旦經過這個地方鄉村剛才講地方創生等等東西都會整合在一起對空間有一定的看法的規範那這就會是我們不管是地方跟中央都會依這個東西來做相關的審查所以意思就是說從110年度獲得核定補助的其實他也已經完成了也結案了那請教一下副署長他下一步要幹嘛"},{"start":11201.858,"end":11220.993,"text":"你說接下來要做那個那就要經過公告之後我們會有另外一塊下一個步驟的通盤檢討那請教副署長那公告什麼時候您這樣看就我們立場應該是越快越好因為他說10年內公告嘛所以全部22個走完就會公告"},{"start":11222.4,"end":11245.926,"text":"對 如果大家都在這個過程中可以公告我們就公告副組長我要讓您了解一下我上個禮拜我有去萊義高中借一個教室去主持一個會議可能您也很清楚知道我們原住民有很多很多的土地問題而且非常難解那這些人其實引頸氣盼"},{"start":11247.745,"end":11265.759,"text":"我們國土計畫法如果按照原定5月1號上路就可以解套但是呢他們對於延後6年又要繼續等6年非常的無奈因為他們等了很久那幾戶人家很特別因為呢他們那個地方都沒有所有權那更何況水電表"},{"start":11270.568,"end":11296.039,"text":"講難聽一點都是私階也沒有門牌號很辛苦可是呢我現在特別講一下這個仁愛鄉因為這是我上上個禮拜我也去做會刊因為南投縣仁愛鄉他是最後一個他是在紀錄上他最後一筆拿到鄉規那這是他的公墓在例行的一個公墓那他們的部落的村長所有的人呢 領長都一起來拜託為什麼"},{"start":11299.58,"end":11311.694,"text":"因為您看一下這個他的土地建物的查詢資料他這個使用的分區他叫森林區他叫森林區那您也很清楚"},{"start":11312.93,"end":11331.295,"text":"按照我們非都變更邊定的原則這種森林區是萬萬絕對沒有辦法變更為殯葬用地所以他們當初一直在等這個鄉規啊國土公門分區啊就一直等他們過去想要申請我們的殯葬量能計畫"},{"start":11332.964,"end":11345.312,"text":"一直沒有辦法 就在等這個國土計畫是他們唯一的解套 完了要等六年 然後呢 這個殯葬量能提升計畫編到114 也不知道有沒有下一期"},{"start":11346.736,"end":11364.569,"text":"其實這樣的問題在原鄉地區很多很多原本以為5月1號就要上路的國土計劃法可以讓這些歷史塵蚵一一的被解決掉完了就沒辦法所以呢我請教一下就是副署長像這樣的一個狀況您覺得怎麼辦"},{"start":11370.126,"end":11377.093,"text":"這個案子的詳細的狀況例如他還有什麼敏感什麼東西我比較不清楚這部分個案部分我們可以會後我們去"},{"start":11379.336,"end":11384.38,"text":"我們請我們組裡面 科裡面去看是怎麼樣可以去幫忙那就是來我辦公室看怎麼協助解決嗎可以嗎可以好 謝謝那副處長我請您看一個圖一樣就是國土計畫法它在第15條它有寫直轄市縣市國土計畫每5年通盤檢討一次這個是沒有修的但是你看這個圖"},{"start":11403.817,"end":11408.703,"text":"直轄市縣市國土計畫已經公告在110年已經公告那現在問題來了國土公能分區延後就是到120年那剛才我講的相規從110年就開始做了 直到現在 您說也會繼續補助"},{"start":11420.236,"end":11437.209,"text":"好那現在呢按照我剛才念的直轄市縣市國土計畫通盤檢討沒有修所以他是維持每5年檢討一次所以預計他是會落在115年我現在就想問那鄉村地區整體規劃他到底是要等120年的還是等115年應該是全面實施之後"},{"start":11444.969,"end":11458.54,"text":"所以我就是想要來請教一下副署長您的意見我認為是為了不打劫也不違法我是希望內政部就乾脆就以115通檢來做一個標準"},{"start":11461.802,"end":11489.025,"text":"我希望各縣市國土功能分區先到先審可以先公告核定那第二個部分就是我也希望內政部這邊殯葬量能提升計畫能夠持續的提報編列經費因為很多地方都還很辛苦特別我提到原住民族地區從日本人來從室內葬要在戶外葬戶外葬之後土葬現在又要改成火葬"},{"start":11489.925,"end":11507.048,"text":"我們其實是一直在適應國家的法令要有一個適應期但是我們也希望我們的政府能夠體恤也能夠給我們繼續的來等候我們所有的人都願意跟上政府的政策計畫副組長這樣可以嗎有關這個先審先核定因為剛剛已經講在法裡面的規定我們也必須要依法決定那可以以115為基準嗎"},{"start":11518.656,"end":11537.081,"text":"應該現在法院沒辦法去做這件事情但是因為已經有相規指導的跟我們區計在審查的相關的這個配套跟部分那個署長也有指示我們組裡面去看去盤整看是這些指引跟準則跟地方線是第一線的問題這部分我們來做調節應該可以解決"},{"start":11540.1,"end":11566.529,"text":"一部分的問題好 那我希望這兩個部分我聽起來就是有不錯的一個態度的表示那我們就希望到辦公室來看怎麼樣來解決這些遇到困難的部落好不好是好 謝謝副署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立華吳委員然後再請我們這個國都署針對這個案件看能不能用相規的方式來做一個解答好不好好"},{"start":11567.929,"end":11583.36,"text":"來下一位請廖先祥廖委員質詢好謝謝主席麻煩我們一樣國土署我們徐副署長好請國土署"},{"start":11591.206,"end":11615.276,"text":"委員吳安副主任吳安那我想請教一下這個我們的礦區民眾居住權這件事情在上一次選舉的時候有被充分討論嗎那我們國督署在陸陸續續都有發表一些可能要這個可能不要汙名化或者是說協助他們爭取應有的居住權這件事情可能到去年我還有看到相關的新聞媒體報導在披露"},{"start":11617.597,"end":11638.536,"text":"那我想確認一下因為我的選區除了我們總統的老家有礦區外其實我的選區各個選區各個行政區都很多礦區啦許多人關心相關的進程不曉得礦區權益這個的編定的進度最近有沒有什麼新的消息因為這還是要尊重新北市啦那新北市你們會有原則嗎"},{"start":11641.234,"end":11663.865,"text":"相關審查都已經都有原則然後新北市會我們會去到府服務之後新北市會依程序如果要送上來的我會送上來進行接下來的審議程序所以你們給地方我們現在的邏輯方針是先請地方我們有頒布一套辦法嗎那套辦法叫什麼有頒布了嗎哪時候頒布的"},{"start":11665.426,"end":11692.782,"text":"因為地方政府如果要辦理土地編定的話他們一般來說都會希望愈發有據嘛而不是說我今天想變什麼就變什麼有沒有一個指導原則之類的指導原則的名稱或是哪時候頒布的有相關訊息嗎因為可能我沒有注意到沒有注意到我沒有看到沒有注意到這樣子作業須知是我有頒布然後可是他還是要依那個計畫來呈報那新北市在他也有他計畫呈報的相關的部分這樣我們可以整理出來也跟新北市一樣所以是針對礦區嗎"},{"start":11694.355,"end":11713.129,"text":"是 一定在問的部分 相關的東西就是針對礦區 後續如果說沒有礦區的使用那我們相關的一個變更的指導原則已經出來了那提供給地方政府 那後續地方政府你們希望地方政府主動來辦理變更編訂然後之後再 方案再送到我們內部政府來審議 方向是這樣子嗎"},{"start":11716.996,"end":11736.105,"text":"目前他如果是閒置,然後礦業主管經費,那這個地方就可以處理了地方政府就可以自行編訂了,也不用再送到內政部好,那我後續就來跟地方政府確認一下他有沒有收到這個東西,那後續他要去怎麼執行那目前有任何一個地方政府有完成這個變更編訂的嗎?"},{"start":11739.823,"end":11759.942,"text":"蠻多的都已經在做了有在做也有發佈的也已經有發佈的了好那謝謝謝謝我們副組長那我後續再來跟地方政府來請教那另外一個就是我再麻煩我們的我們國發會好國發會我們彭副主任副組長你也留步一下請副主委可能農業部也一起好了"},{"start":11761.38,"end":11772.633,"text":"副主委 副主委不好意思 請教一下因為我們地方創生啊就是我們的業務嘛那地方創生就牽扯到土管的問題那土地管制成呢是我們青年朋友要回去"},{"start":11773.923,"end":11799.9,"text":"這個要做不管是農業發展相關的產業的時候會遇到一個很大問題就是使用分區的管制嘛那使用分區的管制包括這個生活最需要的最基本的可能廁所或者是一些說什麼小朋友去玩要一個洗手台等等的這些可能在我們現有的這個區域計劃法裡面可能農地上面都是不被允許的他可能都要去另外去做相關的申請"},{"start":11800.66,"end":11821.871,"text":"那其實這相關的申請也都會造成一些成本的增加也會增加它的一些困難性就是一個抗力一個阻力啦那我們這部分有沒有針對地方創生地方朋友所遇到可能在農牧用地相關比較嚴格的使用分區上面遇到的困難來跟我們的農業部或是內政部來做一些討論來做一些相關的放寬"},{"start":11824.966,"end":11840.152,"text":"是 我跟委員報告因為我們地方創生整個的多元提案的程序裡面其實針對不同的個案其實都有一個主管的部會那在他們提案過程裡面呢都會經由這些部會協助他們去做一些審查那"},{"start":11840.732,"end":11860.228,"text":"當部會他們同意的時候才會提到我們地方創生匯報我們在最後做決定那但是有很多部分有些是公部門執行的那大概都會用公有的土地然後他們應該本來就具備一些合法的條件那有一些可能是私人的或者是福原剛剛提到那個比較特別的地方"},{"start":11860.968,"end":11880.826,"text":"他其實會針對那個地方去做個案的處理那基本上都會經過那個我們博導團隊的協助其實各個部會都有各個部會的一個責任劃分嘛農業部的立場當然是要保持我們的農地的一個功能的完整那我們國發會當然是在產業的上面那當然其實兩方面本來就是會有一些衝突這是大家都能夠理解的"},{"start":11881.326,"end":11900.296,"text":"但是既然我們國發會是在輔導民眾回去創業的時候他們遇到這麼多法令的問題譬如說在農地上面要做什麼東西可能都會有一些放寬譬如說容許使用等等的可能有一些要請專業的水保技師或者是這個建築師去做一些相關的規劃這些成本您也知道這些成本對於我們"},{"start":11901.417,"end":11915.793,"text":"回去地方串聲的朋友來講它是一個很大的一個門檻那我希望說我們國發會後續再輔導地方串聲的時候我們可能長期以來都是注重在產業面怎麼寫出它宣傳啊實質的內容的部分但是土地管制的這部分"},{"start":11916.334,"end":11932.276,"text":"我也希望能夠協助我們地方創生的朋友多多跟農業部來做一些溝通能夠做放寬的 謝謝沒有迫害到我們國土利用的符合我們國發會的一個方針的我們盡量去做一些放寬我的放寬不只是容許使用還要請一些技師去簽證什麼什麼的"},{"start":11933.417,"end":11945.522,"text":"而是直接可能在一定的規模以下就是我們直接容許的好不好我希望我們副主委如果地方政府有發生這些問題或是疑難的時候我們再看看有什麼個案我想這已經是現在的問題了現在的問題就看你們有沒有重視這樣子謝謝謝謝副主委謝謝"},{"start":11953.271,"end":11974.956,"text":"謝謝廖先祥廖委員下一位請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在請李彥秀委員李彥秀委員李彥秀委員不在請奈會委員委員奈會委員委員奈會委員委員不在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請高金素梅委員高金素梅委員高金素梅委員不在"},{"start":11976.396,"end":12004.195,"text":"請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請邱毅英委員邱毅英委員邱毅英委員不在請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在來得及嗎"},{"start":12005.951,"end":12014.034,"text":"還是沒關係 我就我看文字你要先拿出來 要不然人家跑好 接完"},{"start":12036.527,"end":12054.634,"text":"好那針對今天的議程是鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向那我們是希望相關今天與會的各單位甚至包括今天沒有與會的內政部地政司"},{"start":12056.695,"end":12081.57,"text":"這個地政司嘛對事實上都有關於說鄉村總體規劃的一個法規甚至一些關於預算所以我們具體請求第一個請內政部會同國家發展委員會農業部及相關部會針對鄉村地區整體規劃之推動機制配合法令實施工具及"},{"start":12084.231,"end":12103.741,"text":"經費等進行盤點並提出未來6年之規劃方向及推動方式第二涉及所需經費及來源請中央相關部會積極爭取預算那我自己再加一個第三點就是說關於這些相關法規"},{"start":12107.211,"end":12125.344,"text":"資修正方向請於三個月內提出初步計畫到經濟委員會及本會委員那是以上我的一個裁示那希望相關部會可以加速來辦理好好我們先"},{"start":12133.422,"end":12136.323,"text":"他去哪裡了?他現在要跑來嗎?要跑來啊?都要跑來啊"},{"start":12154.878,"end":12174.303,"text":"來剛剛的剛剛我宣示的這個三個要點我們是希望雖然我才是這個三個月不過我想我在這三個月的期間我可能再召開一個公定會那可能也不必會用經紀委員會的程序的時間但是我希望這件事要有推動"},{"start":12175.303,"end":12202.292,"text":"因為現在既然有國土計畫法然後已經有把相規入法那我覺得這是很重要的一刻那既然已經入法了就要有它的配套以及它的預算這兩件事都很要緊那我覺得相關部會應該就把資源整合好配套要怎麼用那我相信現在有很多部落有很多村莊像剛剛吳立華所講的就有村莊他現在就在期待了"},{"start":12203.272,"end":12220.11,"text":"那我也希望以他剛剛說的那一個個案,也當作我們的一個指標案例,我們怎麼去協助他們,讓他們現在都是殯葬用地,未來他們那塊地會變得更有使用價值,使用更有生產力的土地。"},{"start":12225.068,"end":12239.156,"text":"就是國土永續發展基金到2月底他有現金283億可以來運用所以是優先從這裡來做處理那當然後續一定會不夠如果照委員您這樣構想但是現在國土永續發展基金是有283億我補充這個資訊"},{"start":12242.697,"end":12254.242,"text":"這個資訊很重要,兩百多億,這個會作為我未來招牌公聽會的經費來源兩百多億可以做很多事了"},{"start":12260.947,"end":12263.088,"text":"現在做相關的規劃,然後縣市的通盤檢討"},{"start":12292.124,"end":12305.333,"text":"現在主要就是之前的各縣市做的規劃然後我們這些陪伴的協助的這些專業團體所以就是剛剛武力法秀出的資料說每一個縣市還有哪些鄉鎮正在做相規"},{"start":12307.975,"end":12337.202,"text":"那些違規的監測還有相關的事情現在都用這筆錢那未來其實我們還有一個機制其實在做富裕那富裕也要用這筆錢所以如果是從重劃的講鄉村的農地的實施重劃這筆錢到底要不要這麼用這件事情其實要重新討論所以我們的會計劃說我們要盤整嘛盤點完沒關係那我們至少知道有一個穩定的經費來源可以真的把原來法要做的其實就要趕快盤整嘛"},{"start":12337.895,"end":12357.686,"text":"好 那因為我們陳冠廷委員他對於這個國土計畫尤其未來要怎麼做相規的配套他也是很在意所以他剛剛說用跑的過來所以雖然我剛剛把他已經跳號過去了不過我們再給他三分鐘的時間讓他可以再來詢問一下我們與會的官員來 請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":12365.396,"end":12367.602,"text":"謝謝趙薇 謝謝主席等一下我們開會時間就到展延到會議結束那我們請農業部部長"},{"start":12377.194,"end":12395.562,"text":"部長今天不在 委員好好想請教一下現在雖然說國土計畫法延後6年那這個嘉義的林白亭還有大量的居民數十年都是持有國產署的合法租約那他們依法繳納租金那依約使用土地"},{"start":12395.942,"end":12415.363,"text":"那未來如果國土計畫法實施這些長期以來繳納這些繳租的民眾可能沒有辦法納入城鄉發展區那陷入這個困境我想請教一下這個矛盾點就是一方面我們要收租金他認可他的使用權另一方面用國土保育的這樣子的禁止為由將他不讓他劃入發展區"},{"start":12416.158,"end":12436.134,"text":"那現在是變成說各自為政政策是前後矛盾這樣子的狀況我想請教一下這個農業部現在的說明一下國產署是認為租約要保障權益劃入這個城鄉發展區那農業部卻反林務局是反對的立場這樣不是有明顯的政策衝突嗎你要怎麼 有沒有一些規劃這些我們會跟"},{"start":12438.235,"end":12453.221,"text":"縣市政府或者是相關的部會來做協調盡可能如果說被劃入國保區或城鄉區的話那這些人本來就要做農業使用的話我們會繼續保障他們的權利我們會持續保障就對了對我們目前部裡面有這個立場所以我們已經去修改這個我們的農業發展條例裡面的相關的規定"},{"start":12461.904,"end":12483.799,"text":"這個是我們很正面看待因為我們是很希望說讓這些合法繳租的這些居民能夠有一個他們可以去生存發展我們現在不是生活而已只是他們要生存發展的所以這個部分我們真的是希望能夠來去准許這些目前出租的土地來去劃入這個城鄉發展區那內政部也是同樣的看法嗎是不是請內政部來請內政部"},{"start":12492.778,"end":12518.093,"text":"報告委員目前主要還是如果是談現階段的部分現階段部分依相關的功能化區的原則去做相關的管理還有我們的圖管的草案去做然後後續就是這一次修法有個相規這件事情對這件事情如果盤整之後是可以處理的那當然就可以做一些調整主要是在這部分"},{"start":12518.713,"end":12533.488,"text":"所以今天聽起來是農業部跟內政部開始有慢慢趨向一致就是要給我們這些被劃入就是以前要繳租金這些不會說不給他們生路而是要給他們一個生存發展的空間開始慢慢有這樣的共識我可以這樣去理解"},{"start":12536.59,"end":12556.124,"text":"我還是再次強調就是我們希望說內政部農業部財政部他們可以成立一個專案的工作小組讓這些林班地合法租約的這些租約戶的能夠在這個穀土計畫功能分化這個地方有一個統一處理的一個原則跟規則讓他們能夠在這一個他們的地方來去生存發展好不好"},{"start":12556.906,"end":12584.942,"text":"好 感謝 謝謝 謝謝趙偉好 謝謝我們陳冠廷委員精準的使用這三分鐘好那我們現在登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘經已發言完畢 詢答結束委員林黛華 邱益穎所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":12589.403,"end":12598.637,"text":"書面質詢也再增加代會委員列入紀錄刊登公報本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16552","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaaa0a16addb1226398b2c86716c5b07467692a6bdb7e2f09f26bbf93b8380d8b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會「住宅法修法系列公聽會（一）：社會住宅之現況及展望」公聽會","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-27T08:31:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-27T12:37:00+08:00","duration":14703,"影片長度":"04:05:03","委員發言時間":"08:31:57 - 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簡單的回應首先針對是否放寬經濟弱勢的比例那麼依據住宅法本部區的政策是需要照顧全體國民於居住於適宜的住宅的立法意旨避免社會排擠社會資源分配以及降低民間投入先辦社宅的意願那所謂出租與弱勢者的比例如果"},{"start":2397.225,"end":2419.494,"text":"在法制上面過度提升反而造成民眾會標清化這些地方那造成社會住宅因應於混居達到多元融合的目的這個目的就很難達到原住民所屬的住宅的規定事實上社會住宅提供一定比例給經濟或社會弱勢那中央與地方也訂定社會住宅的出租辦法也規定新辦的社宅其應按照原住民占全國比例去新辦"},{"start":2421.155,"end":2441.852,"text":"相關的主管機關包括人民會等等也可以會同民間一起共同來興辦所以人民等等只有經濟弱勢者他們也可以申請包租貸款或者是相關的興辦所以是否放寬社會住宅經濟或社會弱勢的比例解那也請大家共同來討論我們來衡量社會住宅的資源怎麼樣合理的分配"},{"start":2442.902,"end":2470.633,"text":"至於有關於社會住宅租金分級的制度本部目前有規劃整個住宅收金分配的收費的基準那是參考民間建設團所做的建議依據不同的經濟能力所得除了提供重低收入戶的相關較低租金之外並且以中古屋所估算的市場租金在不同地區以不同的租金則數來規範租金的上限並符合國際認證的租金負債比例達30%以下的衡量指標"},{"start":2471.573,"end":2492.079,"text":"那麼本部也嚴定相關的分配分級的收支草案那召開許多次的會議包括昨天我們也才剛召開一次會議那會議中也針對許多委員還有地方政府的許多的建議還有大院的委員所做的建議我們來做一些調整那避免引發租金上漲之後造成租金租戶的反彈以及社會的爭議也針對陳租戶所持有的財產的狀態我們進入一些規範跟討論"},{"start":2496.42,"end":2516.402,"text":"所以針對租金調整的制度或者成租人的檢核我們希望可以在不修正住宅法的狀況之下我們給一定的彈性來做一個處理那因為目前的收費草案是以收入為主那如果沒有辦法協助到經濟狀況較差的一些弱勢身份出租者那我們也會研議其他方式予以協助"},{"start":2517.366,"end":2538.76,"text":"那針對如何改進社會住宅的需求的評估那麼我們了解潛在的社會住宅需求我們是透過我們所辦理的住宅需求動向做調查去了解整個受訪者他們在做一個我們普查的過程裡面大家對於社宅申請的意願那房間數、命基數、那負擔的租金、合理成租年限等等做一些多方的調查"},{"start":2539.48,"end":2560.516,"text":"那我們也會持續辦理這樣子的一個住宅需求調查透過這樣的一個住宅需求調查掌握完整的社會對於住宅需求的想像以及整個對社宅的需求的量的方式那透過這些科學的研究跟數據的分析我們來進一步推動相關的社會住宅的需求以及潛在的社會住宅住戶分布的狀態"},{"start":2562.213,"end":2591.152,"text":"那針對學生居住是否可以納入社宅體系那我們有幾個簡單的說明首先是教育部針對校內住宿學生已經提供大專院校學生校內住宿補貼直接補貼公視力大學大專院校學生入住學校宿舍的學生那所以住宿生如果屬於低收入或中低收入戶的家庭也會再增高相關的補貼的額度那從113年2月實施之後每個學期都有22萬名的學生在住在校內的學生獲得補助"},{"start":2592.393,"end":2601.115,"text":"那除了教育部針對學生住在校內的學生有補助債在校外租屋的學生本部自從111年開始我們就開辦300億的中央擴大租金補貼方案對於18到24歲的年輕學子我們也給予一定的補助那經過統計18到24歲的合併戶數佔我們租金的總戶數將近三成那其中以台中桃園為最大宗"},{"start":2617.819,"end":2637.456,"text":"那所以校內的住宿學生其實已經有教育部的住宿補貼措施那校外的租屋的學生也可以申請租金補貼讓每個學生的個人或家庭他只要符合社宅的成租的資格都也可以申請直接包租貸款或者是社會社宅的新辦社宅新辦的一些空間"},{"start":2638.317,"end":2661.546,"text":"那政府也會特別各種方式去照顧年輕的族群跟學生希望他們能夠居住到合適的空間或租到合適的空間那未來我們也會跟教育部一起合作針對大學所能提供的宿舍量能以及現行學生自租的租金補貼的狀況我們視情況再做進一步的補貼也跟教育部一起配合來做完整的規劃"},{"start":2662.691,"end":2669.096,"text":"那最後再一次感謝委員以及專家學者還有民間社團對內政部駐台事業發展的一些關注跟指導"},{"start":2670.236,"end":2696.148,"text":"住宅法是保證國民居住的權益那健全住宅市場提升居住品質使全體國民享有合宜並且有尊嚴的居住環境來落實我國的居住正義的一個重要的法案本部一定會持續檢討並且積極與各方溝通檢討住宅法及相關法令的規範那來因應民眾對於社會住宅的需求那以上說明請各位賢達以及委員們進行指教謝謝"},{"start":2698.242,"end":2719.827,"text":"好謝謝我們董建宏次長的報告那麼其他單位的報告還有我們地方政府的書面意見就請大家自行來參閱我們都會刊登在立法院的公報上好那我們就進入今天學者專家的發言環節我們按照初期簽到的順序第一位我們請逢甲大學土木工程系張志源教授發言教授請這邊"},{"start":2729.592,"end":2748.742,"text":"主席 各位的與會的專家學者 還有我們的公部門的相關代表 還有我們的委員 大家好我是楓堯大學土木工程系張志源教授針對今天的這個議題提出一些個人在整個我們的住宅政策跟社會住宅方面的一些觀察"},{"start":2749.471,"end":2774.373,"text":"那在第一個是否放寬社會住宅跟經濟弱勢的比例標準這個部分其實從中央的社宅到六都的社宅目前大概在這個實際的弱勢的比例大概在40到50%之間那現在的法規標準是已經調到40%那如果直接把它調到50%其實也不是不行但是我們必須要去考慮到的是說在不同的地區"},{"start":2775.37,"end":2800.151,"text":"它可能要達到50% 不一定每一個地區都可以達得到那以比較熱門的雙北地區來講的話 它當然的需求會比較大那如果從中南部來講的話 它目前來講我們從種籤率也可以看得到 其實它在弱勢的比例上或是在需求上其實40%也好 50%也好 這個比例上的調整我覺得應該是要去更審慎的去看待"},{"start":2800.771,"end":2827.288,"text":"那另外就是說40% 50%它另外衍生的一個問題是所謂的混居標籤化的問題那這個混居標籤化如果說其實我們的弱勢比例50% 60%更高那其實在我們這個混居去標籤化這件事情來講它其實是一個逆向的是一個逆向的那如果說以像有一些我們在議題裡面去談到說假設像一些特殊的族群像原民族群"},{"start":2827.847,"end":2846.599,"text":"那原民族群的話其實在某一些地方的原民族群的比例是高的比如說你可能是在桃園他就偏高新北就偏高但你在台北可能就沒那麼高所以其實他應該依照地區的特性那當然這個如果說原民會一起來做參見那其實在照顧原民上其實會更貼切"},{"start":2847.7,"end":2859.637,"text":"那當然在內政部這邊來講的話其實在原民的比例上我觀察到的是中央跟六都有一些他們在設計上已經有把原民的保障比例放進來這也是值得一個稱讚的"},{"start":2860.595,"end":2882.227,"text":"那另外就是說其實在社會住宅目前在供需上每一種弱勢大家都蠻需要的大家都在搶事實上是整個供給量有點不足所以排他性的部分還是要留意為什麼因為這個弱勢比例一旦到50 60以上的時候中位數以下所得的青年人年輕人就會受到排擠"},{"start":2883.467,"end":2907.445,"text":"這個也是要小心 我們現在少子化問題很嚴重其實你看台劇裡面童話故事下集年輕夫妻買不起房 連租房都有問題所以這個都已經反映到很嚴重的社會現實所以其實在調整這個比例的時候 我覺得還是要謹慎的去看待那另外在訂定社會住宅的租金分級制度這個部分其實身份跟所得 這兩種認定方式都很好"},{"start":2908.726,"end":2928.573,"text":"那也在六都跟中央都有不同的做法有的是單一種做法有的是雙軌的做法那其實我覺得都很值得肯定喔那但是在所得這個部分我覺得還有一個要再努力的部分是我們的所得怎麼樣很具體跟清楚的去做查證這件事情它其實是跨部會的"},{"start":2929.233,"end":2951.794,"text":"所以我們的執行單位其實在做這件事情的時候會花很大的力氣去確認所得去撈所得資料這件事情所以這個跨部會的系統借接可能也是需要稍微留意一下那另外在分級的這個租金個人是表達是支持的因為我覺得分級的租金確實可以照顧到比較弱勢的一群那另外在"},{"start":2953.14,"end":2970.371,"text":"我們說分級制度來講未來我覺得應該要做更長遠更深入的一些滾動式的研究去掌握相關的具體數據那這個部分我覺得應該要我們的這個中央單位也好或地方單位也好應該是要找一些民間的顧問或學術單位結合民間團體民團一起來做這種探討"},{"start":2975.754,"end":2996.316,"text":"那這樣的探討裡面的數字才不會太冰冷沒有溫度它只有理性的數字而沒有感性的溫度所以我覺得像這種研究案應該是要跟民團一起不要單獨一家顧問公司去做那有可能是我用聯合承攬的方式要求民團跟外面的學術單位或顧問公司一起來研究這個議題"},{"start":2997.957,"end":3026.029,"text":"一起研究的成果的話我覺得才不會有一種說在專家他只是找部分的民團然後給他一小筆錢然後為了結案就超少把這件事結束掉這個我覺得是比較可惜的那改善改進社會住宅需求評估這個部分其實目前來講我們在社會住宅到底需要多少的量這件事情其實我覺得我們還沒有很具體的去掌握到"},{"start":3026.584,"end":3047.201,"text":"但是從小英總統的20萬戶到我們現在賴總統的100萬戶的這種目標值其實事實上都還在路上走其實我們從一個很表象的一個數據就可以窺知在供需上的一個不足的問題比如說台北的種遷率 社宅的種遷率都在10%以下"},{"start":3048.502,"end":3075.544,"text":"六七趴根本抽不到那你如果到中南部可能有十幾趴有十幾趴但是還是很低還是很低所以其實在需求上就算不評估我們從現在很接地氣的數據來看也很清楚完全是供不應求完全是供不應求所以我覺得這個未來的調查或許結合我們的普查的作業借力使力那其實可以再把更多的這個需求跟問題可以探討出來"},{"start":3076.184,"end":3090.733,"text":"那另外我也建議說中央可以舉援引一些比較大型的研究案像居住水準的調查讓各縣市然後再彙整出一個大案子來整個了解整個居住水準那社會住宅的需求也是類似的概念我覺得也應該是"},{"start":3092.663,"end":3105.951,"text":"匯整全國用一個比較大型的一個類普查概念的研究來處理它而不要說一個很小的案子然後就要去定調這件事情那另外這個議題當然還是需要長期滾動式的去檢討會比較好"},{"start":3107.725,"end":3134.526,"text":"那最後我們再看學生是否可以納入社會住宅體系這個問題其實在目前的操作上已經有蠻多的縣市政府六都啦他已經把這一個學生納入可以抽籤的第13類的人那事實上學生對這個社會住宅有沒有需求?有我有自己學生的例子我學生從台中考上了台大那考上台大呢"},{"start":3135.948,"end":3162.117,"text":"一來高興一來也難過 為什麼台大附近的你完全租不起台大的學生宿舍他也沒抽到然後他現在想辦法去抽社會住宅 備取300所以他找了另外一條路叫做他用輕創的手段他貢獻自己的能力然後用輕創去跟人家徵選他很高興的告訴我 他徵選到了他只需要付原來在台大附近三分之一的租金他就可以來這邊生活"},{"start":3162.779,"end":3188.413,"text":"然後未來他如果留在台北工作他可以有六年住在台北因為如果他持續的付出持續3加3還在的話他覺得他工作之後他可以安心的在台北去賺他的第一桶金所以其實這些相關對學子照顧的機制我覺得是重要的那他有很多種可能的配套那現在學生居住的問題尤其在各個學區如果不是在台北的話其實最大問題是居住品質"},{"start":3189.673,"end":3213.79,"text":"反而不一定是居住租金我說不是在台北的時候那學生另外一個問題是說我畢業的那一刻去借街我的社會的時候那個時候我的薪水最低我需要的幫助也最大這個時候在借街的這個點有沒有什麼樣的配套機制可以幫助我們的年輕的學子在借街的這一段其實先幫他一把讓他可以在社會住宅裡面有更多的資源以上 謝謝"},{"start":3216.854,"end":3224.318,"text":"好 謝謝張志源教授下一位我們請中華民國主任住宅工會全聯會劉真君理事發言好 謝謝主席提醒我們的委員跟長官大家好我是中華民國住福全會的理事劉真君也是桃園住福工會的創業理事長真君這邊想表達我接下來的發言代表我的產業"},{"start":3244.079,"end":3265.92,"text":"在2018年我們就推動幫政府推動涉宅包租貸款的項目我們桃園的業績大概佔全台灣涉宅包租貸款將近快40%的量體那我今天想針對岸友誼跟岸友士來表達一下岸友誼是說我們現在目前是不是說我們的弱勢是往上增加其實曾軍認為說其實"},{"start":3267.987,"end":3274.174,"text":"就算增加60%我覺得弱勢也未必會幫助得到不是 為什麼因為我覺得當務之急在我們民間應該幫弱勢去標籤化"},{"start":3277.423,"end":3301.223,"text":"因為人們都認為說 老 殘 窮 等於弱勢 並不是像我們在桃園 太多歷史了 很多的長輩他的名下是有不動產的 因為年紀關係呢 他自己給他孩子那因為有過走公寓 有後天 老人家膝蓋不方便他沒辦法爬樓梯 他去外面租個電梯但是民間覺得 這老人家呢 就不要租給他因為呢 他沒有錢 可能會吃小豬雞所不時呢 他是個非常非常好的一個租客"},{"start":3302.444,"end":3327.796,"text":"我認為民間應該要幫他們去去標籤說舉方案說剛好跟我們的張老師有討論過他可能租了房子當中這三四年呢業主或公會呢給他一個證明說這麼多年來他是個優良的房客當他要去租房子當中呢請他拿這個證明給下一個房東看說他是非常好的一個房客或房東也好如果你沒有這麼做的話呢我講實在話如果包租"},{"start":3329.437,"end":3345.852,"text":"占六成好了 業者也不會去做它是因為一個租吧 還是一個有我在永和好了我房子我繳租金繳一個月 後面我不租了你讓我合在台灣不繳租金的代價很低後面當然換綜合嘛"},{"start":3347.813,"end":3368.598,"text":"我1月1號起租我2月2號呢我不繳租金我要到12月31號我才能把他趕走最快的最快喔那包租業者你要賠多少錢在永和的話至少一個案子要賠快40萬因為一個月租金4萬塊的話所以呢我們的利益洋上是要幫我們的弱勢族群去幫他去有一個居住的正義我認為去標籤化呢可能是"},{"start":3369.912,"end":3392.545,"text":"更重要的第一環這是我們暗友的部分因為如果業者或是民間或房東也好他們還是這種根深蒂固的話呢其實我們沒有辦法幫助這個族群我再舉個例子好了我記得曾啟禾是一個陳靜心他殺害了白小燕的孩子那時候人家說姓陳的都是壞人為什麼 因為陳靜心殺人的所以姓陳是壞人我不服氣啊"},{"start":3396.943,"end":3417.978,"text":"那如果有幾個這種族群人沒有去給租金所以他說我覺得弱勢族群人就沒有辦法給租金的話我覺得我也不服氣啊所以區別建畫我認為這個是必須要這麼首要當務之急所以我覺得這是問題的核心再來呢第四齁我前天在跟桃園的南亞基督學院的校董"},{"start":3419.148,"end":3445.635,"text":"剛好在討論這個話題我說那個校長到底現在是少子化呢招生困難怎麼用有說啊孩子住不到房子他說我們學校有五百多間的套房而且呢配合政府的ROTC的計畫呢甚至四年不用給租金但是我租不掉的證據這個意思我覺得很好但是呢他有城鄉發展的一個一個落差可是在台北"},{"start":3446.701,"end":3475.396,"text":"我覺得這個問題是存在的但在其他縣市的話呢其實我認為其實學校的宿舍真的是租不掉那我們的在民間當中呢暗油事件發現有點衝突民間這個需要的話呢他找不到房子那如果給孩子的話我覺得是這樣子如果其他縣市的話我們保留一個名額給孩子他未必這個學校因為一年他只能居住的時間可能就九個月扣掉含暑假那到底少子化招生困難還是宿舍不足"},{"start":3477.148,"end":3503.122,"text":"我覺得這個是不同縣市有不同的看法假設我們把它都訂好之後每個縣市必須要給孩子多少多戶數的話呢可能其他縣市真的需要我就舉桃園好了真的需要設宅的話可能會被排擠到因為學校這個宿舍多到沒辦法去提供給出去給孩子住但是呢我們又給額度說設宅的話這個給孩子那剛剛我們可能我們的流產物先是我們的"},{"start":3504.878,"end":3520.748,"text":"聊到話題說 我們的這個協會很多的會員沒辦法住到社宅 排不到那可能藉由孩子進去的話 在桃園的話可能這處局就 我們需要的民眾會可能更加困難所以以上呢 是那個跟委員報告 其實我"},{"start":3521.929,"end":3545.694,"text":"再來是我最後想表達的是說我們從2018年呢在支持政府的社宅報災館一路過來呢真的感謝我們中央喔讓我們其實很有使命感這陣陣呢就感覺因為孩子一樣希望他可以成功但是今年這一次我們發現賴總統這一次喔我覺得力道真的差太多了跟我們的蔡總統我覺得差很多很有感因為"},{"start":3548.936,"end":3570.613,"text":"我講實話 我覺得涉財報告館這議題這涉財這議題就冷掉了還是只有喊一喊而已我們在民間覺得說怎麼會差那麼多到底現在是要玩真的呢還是講講而已到現在百萬租屋機構家庭計畫都還沒簽下來我們也不知道 我們在民間也不知道到底要怎麼推動還是說乾脆啊"},{"start":3572.219,"end":3592.967,"text":"先聽看聽一下所以這一塊我說實在話我代表民間是說其實很有感這兩年我覺得差太多了力道差很多這樣子所以以上是我們曾駿的分享謝謝主席 謝謝大家感謝 謝謝好 謝謝劉曾駿理事的分享下一位我們請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":3604.598,"end":3628.349,"text":"好 謝謝主席 現在各位官員 各位我們學者那其實在立法院我們可能討論的是可能會從最高的國家的政策開始討論然後再依照各個部會 各個委員會再去分享的大家一來討論各項的一個社會的問題那我當然還是希望說我們每一個部會 每一個政策推出來的時候如果說我們能夠"},{"start":3629.892,"end":3647.527,"text":"把它的效果放到更大可以除了我們原本政策設定的目標的問題解決之外如果這個政策還能夠更廣泛的發酵到其他的國家問題的話那我想這個政策它會更有的意義那剛剛從政策以及我們學者老師講的"},{"start":3648.408,"end":3673.219,"text":"在我們的社會住宅的設立上面有一個很重要的觀念就是去標籤化那混居的一個議題這部分我當然很認同只是說我跟內政部之前有點摩擦只是說大家這個混居的意義是這一棟混居而已還是這個範圍整個範圍要混居意見不一樣但不是今天的主題只是說我認同混居的這個政策所以在混居的政策認同下去的時候我們就討論單獨這一棟的時候"},{"start":3676.34,"end":3681.764,"text":"今天討論一個比例到底要幾%那這幾%之後會有其他混區的這個社會的民眾那其他的社會民眾除了弱勢以外的其他民眾誰有這個資格進到我們的社會住宅也是我今天可能想要發言的一個重點"},{"start":3691.65,"end":3712.487,"text":"包括今天的公聽會第三點也有提到說我們的這個學生要不要納進去我們都希望這個社宅賦予他更多的一個社會的一個責任那我個人的觀點除了今天討論的這三點之外我還會建議說是不是能夠納入兩點的一個部分在混居的範圍之內第一點也是我們內政部的一個政策就是我們的這個"},{"start":3715.891,"end":3732.948,"text":"這個都市更新這種類別都市更新或者是市立重劃或者是區斷徵收這種類別我們常常會因為都市更新的原住戶或者是這個區斷徵收或者是這個重劃裡面的原住戶的這個安簽這個給他移居的一個問題常常是我推"},{"start":3733.729,"end":3755.649,"text":"拖累我們進度政策進程的一個很大的一個部分如果在這個部分因為譬如像我們的區徵跟這個重劃的時候我們現在都有要求希望保留一定的比例譬如說3% 5%未來在這個範圍內做區段徵收這個社會住宅的比例那我們在這3% 5%之內我們是不是能夠留一些在弱勢保障完了之後"},{"start":3756.149,"end":3761.733,"text":"混聚的部分讓原範圍內需要安置的民眾他也有優先安置的權利那一部分我們可以推動如果說這個政策能夠上路能夠有效的話他或許可以縮短我們在區段徵收或這個重劃的時候他所需要的一個時間我們可能原本規劃個300戶500戶在裡面但是我們因為溝通多花了3年5年但是我們可以提前提前的讓這個政策完成我們也可以更早的讓我們"},{"start":3785.487,"end":3795.552,"text":"其他除了安置戶以外的民眾也能夠進到我們的社會住宅所以說我覺得在討論政策的時候時間性也是一個很重要的重點如果說我們能夠透過社會住宅讓相關的都更或者區段徵收重劃的這些需要安置的民眾有優先簽進去的一個權利的話那我覺得這個可以讓我們的社會住宅的一個效益能夠更擴大"},{"start":3807.717,"end":3813.219,"text":"那另外一個除了我們自己可能承認內政部的一個政策之外我們還有許多的國家公共工程需要透過徵收的方式或者是其他的方式比如說原本是租的那我們解除租約其實當然在法定上我們國家都站得住腳但是因為我們國家也非常注重人民居住的權益我們總是希望說一件事情能夠圓滿"},{"start":3830.226,"end":3844.61,"text":"讓他們能夠安簽到一個大家都可以接受的地方讓事情圓滿才是最重要而不是什麼事情都是用法律戰來把這個當作執行政策一個必要的手段所以說我知道譬如說在南部最近好像有一個應該是園區之類的一個開發計畫"},{"start":3849.091,"end":3877.365,"text":"他可能也有一個遷出那個計畫那或者包括每個選區或許比如說我們在慶德總統的一個這個台南鐵道的一個遷移也牽涉到我們民眾的一個遷居如果說我們能夠多了一個疏通的管道讓我們國家在執行公共政策的時候能夠讓這些需要安置的一個民眾他也能夠優先的來到我們的社會住宅居住的話在不排擠不排擠我們的這個弱勢戶的比例的情況下或許我們也可以把這一項需要"},{"start":3878.886,"end":3905.61,"text":"安置的民眾也納進去我想這個就是除了我們社會住宅這個原本的政策的一個框架之內然後我們可以去服務讓我們的國家的其他的政策能夠推長得更加順利來提高我們整體的一個公共政策執行的比例這就是我一個個人的一個潛見也給大家參考以上 謝謝好 謝謝廖新強委員下一位我們請台灣學生聯合會常務理事曾宣凱常務理事"},{"start":3916.022,"end":3931.708,"text":"主席在場的委員還有各位專家學者以及NGO的夥伴們大家好我是台灣學生聯合會的常務理事曾宣凱我們作為本場公聽會一個少數的學生團體代表我們希望可以在這場公聽會可以藉由學生的視角"},{"start":3932.493,"end":3954.694,"text":"來表達住宅法的修法的問題來表達我們的聲音首先我們必須要正視學生在台灣當前的居住環境的議題那就如同提剛有提到根據監察院12年的調查報告中可以指出決標的目前決標的91處的社會住宅中有62處有鄰近大專院校而且"},{"start":3955.515,"end":3971.356,"text":"目前大學宿舍的供應量跟需求量是遠遠不足的根據統計目前台灣各大學的宿舍中有供給量平均只有約28%至三成那這也意味著有超過七成的大學生"},{"start":3971.796,"end":3988.292,"text":"他必須要選擇在外租屋或者是要選擇通勤那當學生他離開家鄉他到外地求學的時候其實住宿問題是一個非常直接的挑戰尤其是在高房價的城市學生的租屋負擔其實相當的沉重其實根據2023年的市場統計"},{"start":3990.314,"end":4004.464,"text":"台北市學生他平均的租金已經達到每月8000元至15000元這對於經濟條件有限的學生來說是一個非常非常大的負擔由於這個租金高昂的問題所以導致許多學生只能選擇價格較低"},{"start":4005.885,"end":4029.122,"text":"但居住品質非常不佳的租屋環境例如違規的隔間套房然後地下室的房間甚至是無堆外窗的雅房這些租屋的環境往往伴隨著各種安全的隱憂包括消防設備的不足建築結構的老舊逃生動線的不佳這些問題都其實嚴重影響了學生的居住安全的事情"},{"start":4029.702,"end":4049.188,"text":"那除了租金負擔還有剛剛提到的安全隱憂的部分其實目前資訊不透明的租屋市場其實也讓學生在這個困境中其實陷入相當大的困難那許多學生在租屋時期遇到很多不合理的條件例如像是房東常常會不提供租約或"},{"start":4049.608,"end":4073.253,"text":"押金就是用各種理由去刁難就無法退還那或者是限制使用電器然後禁止訪客等等那甚至還有房東會臨時加價或是用各種理由來惡意的解約導致學生在住宿上面導致非常大的困擾那目前我們也觀察到其實政府在這些問題上面的監管其實非常的"},{"start":4073.693,"end":4092.942,"text":"薄弱那也缺乏一個有效的機制來去確保學生的租屋的權益所以我們也希望說政府是不是也可以考量可能像國外有些政府他們也有在推動學生租屋的白名單的制度就透過政府來定期公佈符合租賃條件的房東與房員並提供相對的獎勵措施來確保學生能夠獲得安全友善"},{"start":4098.024,"end":4113.853,"text":"而且價格合理又能符合居住品質的租屋環境此外社會住宅也應該適度的納入學生的群體這不僅是解決學生租屋問題的有效方式其實也跟目前的國際趨勢也相符合不管是像"},{"start":4114.213,"end":4135.658,"text":"荷蘭、法國、韓國等等國家其實政府都已經在社會住宅的體系中納入學生了那也透過不同的模式來滿足學生的居住需求例如像是韓國就有推出共享宿舍的方案學生和青年就可以共同居住那由政府來補助的租金那讓這個租金可以維持在學生或青年可以負擔的一個範圍內"},{"start":4136.798,"end":4153.032,"text":"那台灣也可以參考這些做法然後可以持續擴大包租代管的模式有公立和私立的大專院校向政府租用社會住宅或其他一般的房屋然後再以合理的價格轉租給學生來確保他租金的穩定且安全的環境"},{"start":4154.053,"end":4170.243,"text":"那目前社會住宅他的租金雖然已經納入了分級制度那依據所得狀況與負擔的能力來進行調整但其實因為目前大多數的大學生他其實並沒有一個固定的收入的那如果因為這樣的話其實在這上面會有一個"},{"start":4171.023,"end":4189.776,"text":"蠻大的困擾那所以我們覺得說可以針對這個學生的部分來去制定一個專案的租金的方案來確保學生能夠負擔得起這些社會住宅的部分那我們也認為說政府應該要強化租金補貼的制度尤其雖然現在內政部還有教育部有提供學生租金的補貼"},{"start":4190.496,"end":4209.655,"text":"但其實政策執行上仍有許多的問題像是許多學生都因為房東不願報稅所以就是無法申請補貼然後也有很多房東會透過就是你有沒有申請租屋佈住來制定兩套的租金的金額的標準然後用這種方式來鑽那個法律漏洞那其實這種"},{"start":4212.998,"end":4228.204,"text":"除了這個問題以外,補助金額的不足其實也有很大的困擾,因為其實在不同的區域中也會遇到很大的問題,像是在高速金額北部的話,其實補助額度相比起其他區域,其實是更難減輕學生的負擔的。"},{"start":4229.204,"end":4256.154,"text":"那除了租金補貼的部分那我們也認為政府應該要積極的監管學生租屋的市場確保學生居住環境的安全與品質目前就像前面有提到說許多學生居住在一個違章的建築或是老舊的公寓他們的不管是居住安全其實都非常的不完善那他們也缺乏很多基本安全設備其實很容易引發火災啊坍塌的危險那我們認為政府應該要建立一個學生"},{"start":4256.654,"end":4271.508,"text":"租屋的檢查制度那針對學生租賃的房屋進行定期的安全檢查確保所有的出租套房也有符合基本的安全的規範那因為目前的狀況只是要求大學會去調查學生租屋的情況"},{"start":4272.188,"end":4290.067,"text":"那其實在實務現場中大學都只會發放問卷給學生填寫那對於後續的問題的改善其實是蠻缺乏有效的一個應對的手段的那所以我們希望說在跟學生與青年的居住權益上不應該只停留在修法的時候被拿出來討論"},{"start":4290.888,"end":4318.739,"text":"或是在公聽會的時候才能被表達出來我們希望可以建立一個長期且穩定的一個政策參與的機制那目前政府在制定社會住宅政策的時候其實學生和青年的意見其實往往未能被納入考量其實我們也只能透過可能要經過修法的時候那舉辦的公聽會然後去被納入聲音的表達那其實我們認為說政府應該要建立一個學生或者是青年的一個"},{"start":4319.219,"end":4340.877,"text":"政策參與的平台然後讓學生團體或青年代表他可以直接的參與這個政策的討論來確保這個社會住宅的議題能夠符合真正符合學生與青年的需求那總體而言的話其實學生的居住權益不應該被忽視那政府應該也將學生納入社會住宅政策提供一個穩定"},{"start":4341.638,"end":4366.68,"text":"可負擔的住宅選擇那我們也很感謝范雲委員還有其他委員在這些議題上也持續跟學生溝通那我們也相信一個擁有友善且無負擔的居住環境才能使學生在教育的現場不會因為他的家庭背景競技程度等因素來面臨一個沉重的負擔而我們也認為政府也應該要負起責任盡量彌平這樣的不平等的狀況謝謝"},{"start":4370.435,"end":4379.325,"text":"好 謝謝我們曾軒凱常務理事下一位我們請中華民國身心障礙聯盟劉金鐘常務監事發言我們留在位置上就可以了"},{"start":4387.486,"end":4403.479,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有在座的各位先進大家好我代表神經障礙聯盟來第一次發言首先我們要提出來的是我們現在的社會素材的比例應該要去檢討 為什麼"},{"start":4405.1,"end":4433.291,"text":"因為我們現在社會住宅裡頭的無障礙客房雖然有5%的保障但是實際我們能夠抽籤抽得到的不到1%因為競爭者太多但是這些競爭者80%進去以後頭就大了我就不需要這些東西你裝了這麼多的花了那麼多錢裝了這麼多的無障礙的設施設備我用不到啊那幹嘛花那麼多錢浪費公帑"},{"start":4434.551,"end":4451.516,"text":"那真正我們需要住這樣子的客房的抽不到現在目前來講頂多是1%所以我想這個比例我希望能夠把無障礙客房這個概念打破增加更多的所謂的通用設計房"},{"start":4452.896,"end":4471.787,"text":"通用材的話就是老弱婦孺高的胖的瘦的矮的大家都能用的一個房間我們只要把門的寬度加大一點那浴室裡頭的寬度加大一點點就5公分10公分就夠了那這樣的話大家都能用不是很好嗎那這樣的話也不用浪費那麼多錢"},{"start":4474.786,"end":4499.552,"text":"第二點就是我們希望說目前我們的社會住宅好像沒有統一像台北市來講他社會住宅一定要取得什麼無障礙標章那因為為什麼要取得無障礙標章因為無障礙標章裡頭他的標準會高一點他不是那個難度高一點是說他考量的就剛剛講的通用設計的概念的東西會不要進來"},{"start":4500.532,"end":4527.447,"text":"也就是這樣的一個環境包括我們的建築線內或是建築線外他都會把它統一整合起來比方說我們事實上引導的一個系統那這個系統現在目前都是做建築的外面的道路做外面的道路兩個沒辦法結合所以這個住戶他沒辦法走到他的路口"},{"start":4528.8,"end":4550.985,"text":"他要出門的話沒辦法由他的那個住宅很順利的可以走到他的路口然後去搭車這個就是有脫節了所以必須要做一個無障礙的標章這樣的比較高標準一點點的來整合或者的話會真的沒辦法達到我們這些真正使用者的一個需求"},{"start":4552.145,"end":4567.686,"text":"然後再來就是我們第三個就是我們這個目前我們這些障礙者或是我們現在已經走入超高齡社會這些高齡者或是我們的障礙者"},{"start":4568.507,"end":4583,"text":"他要租屋真的你們沒有出過不知道我姊姊70幾歲要去租屋跑遍整個租屋市場沒有人租他只要聽到你幾歲70幾歲80歲我們障礙者要去租屋一定要怎麼有障礙"},{"start":4589.165,"end":4613.082,"text":"找不到無障礙你就沒辦法住進去那我們住進去要求那個房東說你能不能讓我改一下讓我住進去能夠方便住著沒有人會理你所以這種情況下就很痛苦非常痛苦所以我們就希望說既然我們好不容易百分之一的機會抽到了那為什麼要限制他的那個什麼租屋的限制"},{"start":4613.997,"end":4628.883,"text":"讓他住幾年以後被迫要離開這麼難得一個環境好不容易百分之一的機會那個抽進來了還要被淘汰掉然後再來重新抽一次我想我希望說我們這個對這些"},{"start":4631.755,"end":4657.894,"text":"弱勢而且是非常弱勢的這些朋友是不是可以體諒一下讓他們可以不要那個限期件就是把期限給取消掉等他走了以後再把他那個弄回來然後再來第3點就是要第4點要跟大家談的是目前的狀況我們的社宅狀況真的是講難一點就要亂七八糟了為什麼"},{"start":4659.659,"end":4685.681,"text":"因為我第一次因為我是台北市的無障礙委員我都要去看那個軍工的檢查拿死照的時候看了太多我們的那個什麼社會住宅裡頭他設施設備不見得符合我們使用者也就是說我們這一個那個社宅的這個設立標準要檢討一定要檢討不檢討的話真的國家會浪費很多錢"},{"start":4686.562,"end":4692.077,"text":"我第一次去看的時候看見一間社宅他是怎麼樣他的浴室比臥室還大"},{"start":4695.264,"end":4720.451,"text":"你進去的時候 浴室我很難轉喔我從臥室轉到浴室轉半天還要跳兩下才過去因為臥室太小 從擺下去以後走道就很小走道很小的時候 那我就要慢慢拐 慢慢拐甚至我要出來的時候還要連心幫鼓兩次才有辦法出來臥室是這樣但是進到浴室的時候我可以兩個人在裡頭跳花花枝"},{"start":4722.622,"end":4749.444,"text":"很誇張這個就是現在我們的標準設定出來會搞成這個樣子要不然就是什麼我常常去的時候這個之前那個建築執照 建造執照的時候不是有審圖嗎圖審過了以後為什麼會出現這麼糟糕這麼離譜的事情我們最多的是我們進去看的時候把床擺下去以後發現糟糕"},{"start":4750.265,"end":4762.958,"text":"我進來以後連上床的機會都沒有為什麼他的衣櫥啊就擺在那個那一道牆壁的正中央在正中央擺下去以後我就沒辦法靠近床我就沒辦法上床"},{"start":4763.885,"end":4767.949,"text":"有氣勢 他們給我們解釋說當時畫圖的時候不會把衣櫥把它畫出來所以到做好以後擺上去完蛋了 而且是固定的"},{"start":4781.514,"end":4795.167,"text":"如果說你要把它移動要拆要移那這個東西你要去什麼去申請申請不見得過所以真的是弄得住進去的這些住戶很痛苦非常痛苦那所以我們希望說"},{"start":4796.949,"end":4825.197,"text":"這一個那個住宅的那個設立標準應該要檢討了因為裡頭早期我們很多沒有想到的地方想不到的地方現在在住進去以後很多的住戶都我們這些這些那個倫理者住戶進去以後發現太多的問題那我們希望說收集這些問題然後我們來做一個全盤的檢討讓真正需要住的人能夠有機會更多的機會可以抽到這個房子"},{"start":4825.977,"end":4847.315,"text":"那再來住進去以後真正的能夠適宅適用就是我進去我是能用的 而不是進去以後我還要跟管委會啊什麼大家討論說我這裡要修那裡要改很痛苦的事情然後再來就是最後還是提剛剛那件事情就是我們既然這麼不容易進來了不要說一定的時間就要把我們再趕出去"},{"start":4848.175,"end":4871.636,"text":"這一點我想我需要能夠幫我們這些弱勢的朋友這些尤其真的那個要租房子真的太難了我們好不容易輔導你出來什麼就業我出來就業但是沒有房子住我還是失業沒辦法出來以上跟大家報告謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝我們劉金中常務監事的發言下一位我們請范雲委員發言"},{"start":4885.69,"end":4900.104,"text":"主席還有我們現場的學者專家還有我們的政府部會大家早安今天關於住宅法修法的公聽會我比較關心的就是怎麼樣納入青年學生跟性別的觀點"},{"start":4901.925,"end":4925.612,"text":"那我想從這個我提供的PVT照片大家可以看到我長期就關心這個青年學生的居住議題那去年5月我也跟我們在場的OURS都是改革組織共同召開了新宿舍計畫2.0的公聽會那當時是針對教育部那當然內政部就是說也有來我們那天的結論就是說目前內政部跟教育部合作不足"},{"start":4926.132,"end":4945.065,"text":"应该要一起协商合作争取让学校透过包租设宅的方式提供学生校外住宿的选项而且要编列相应的业务及补助经费那会后呢教育部给我的回复是说他们承诺会新增学校在宿舍整修工程时"},{"start":4956.912,"end":4974.518,"text":"當然這聽起來是蠻友善、善意的可是剛剛我們的青年代表也有講到其實現在的狀況是就是說宿舍非常的不足我長期就批評跟要求不管是教育部或者是我們政府單位你們提供數字的時候都沒有給我們母數"},{"start":4976.799,"end":5001.392,"text":"這個3500床那對整個還有需求的到底是多少會不會只是杯水車薪看起來數字有成長但是其實以我們的了解來講還是非常的不足那我過去也跟北大的學生共同開記者會就是學校在處理學生宿舍不足的各方面的情況下都沒有尊重學生的意見甚至學生就是被拒絕發言我想"},{"start":5002.032,"end":5021.391,"text":"這個就彰顯其實居住問題中我們非常忽略青年那在青年基本法的公聽會裡面相關的訴求中我也要求裡面的住宅的議題以住宅議題為例學生在教育部在內政部這邊其實一點發言空間都沒有那這是蠻大的問題好"},{"start":5024.558,"end":5039.487,"text":"那我想我這邊整理就是如果我們從青年學生的困境來看那個社會住宅的話我們就可以看到現在學校宿舍量不夠 值不足雖然有新宿舍計畫非常好可是造成宿舍的M型化"},{"start":5040.107,"end":5056.101,"text":"就是糟的非常糟都沒有基本的標準然後好的非常好可是就像剛剛我們第一位張教授所講的那很多人根本就抽不到如果你是南部的學生來台北的話那那個台大附近的話可能很多教授都租不起了對不對更何況"},{"start":5057.482,"end":5084.188,"text":"学生那校外租的话就是资讯不足房东不给申请租补这个也造成就是有很多好的补助领不到那最后就是学校怎么去媒合污染因为对学校来讲除了校园范围的话他也管不到所以这非常需要跨部会合作所以目前设宅的规划整体来讲的话就是对于所谓经济跟弱势还有青年我觉得比例是不是还是不够"},{"start":5084.828,"end":5110.229,"text":"那更不用談就是說剛剛所講的設計上怎麼樣讓不同性別青年還有就是不同的族群包含就是無家者身上者他們的需求我覺得都是很大的問題那賴總統提出擴大租金補貼的政見非常好那當然最近那個因為預算的部分就是被動山還有就是中央跟地方的才化法我們不知道情況如何"},{"start":5110.649,"end":5121.057,"text":"但是我想實際上也希望內政部去了解解決這個問題就是不要讓大家覺得就是看得到吃不到那這是非常關鍵落實的問題所以最後因為時間有限我簡單講一下我的版本的六大重點第一個"},{"start":5128.442,"end":5148.293,"text":"學生居住的困境不能再任由教育部跟內政部各行其事就是要跨部會解決要解決學生居住的困境第二個要強化居住相關的設計裡面的性別青年主流化還有弱勢的需求譬如說女性設宅應該要有白皮書青年困境要有專門的策略"},{"start":5149.073,"end":5175.362,"text":"那第三身心障礙者納入社宅當然是優先對象那剛剛我們的劉常務監事講的設計這也是很根本的問題那再來社宅的可負擔性我想我們全民都看到之前台北市那個天價叫做社會住宅的可笑的地方所以這個中央就是應該要來管那設定就是一般的可負擔原則最後就是出"},{"start":5175.862,"end":5188.249,"text":"租屋的資訊透明居住品質然後如何逐步提升包租的比例那我們都從數字上看到全台灣的空屋比例很高所以怎麼樣讓他能夠釋出我想"},{"start":5190.971,"end":5210.474,"text":"比起取得大片的土地來講那真的會是更有效益的方法所以怎麼去處理這幾個問題那當然我的版本也希望證明就是把那個由名改成無家者然後也列入到就是說應該優先申請那最後就是希望我的兩點訴求就是希望等一下內政部回應的時候可以承諾說就是你們要評估我們的條文然後儘速能夠提出住宅法草原的可行性"},{"start":5220.356,"end":5236.23,"text":"那第二個教育部跟內政部還有主計處是不是能夠在一個月內給我一個初步協調的報告就是你們如何一起合作解決我們剛講的那個學生租屋的困境這樣可以請待會回應的時候講到好謝謝好謝謝范雲委員下一位我們請OS都市改革組織彭江凱秘書長發言"},{"start":5260.162,"end":5261.323,"text":"主席還有各位先進大家好我是奧爾斯都市改革組織秘書長 培昂凱然後今天針對這公聽會的主題我大概直接回應兩個部分第一個關於社會住宅需求掌握"},{"start":5284.457,"end":5311.593,"text":"我想很清楚在住宅法第18條已經有明確講了政府要做這個事情那剛剛在次長的報告其實我很清楚現在政府有做調查可是我要問的是現在調查的方式夠不夠因為我們現在所謂住宅需求動向調查是以申請租金補貼的為對象而且是一個自願性的填問卷而且因為要問的問題很多所以對於社會住宅問得非常簡略我們覺得夠不夠"},{"start":5312.634,"end":5339.307,"text":"好那在這個角度我覺得這樣的問題我覺得有兩個問題另外一個問題是事實上現在我們社會住宅基本上都是蓋好讓民眾來抽籤或者是那個來申請就對了對政府而言因為我們不知道到底是誰要所以我們要花很大力氣到處宣傳怕有人不知道對不對 怕民眾可是對民眾而言事實上他有可能他也每天提心吊膽說我沒有看到這個招租資訊漏了"},{"start":5340.447,"end":5364.502,"text":"而且剛剛也很多人談過我們社會住宅中簽率很低所以他可能要抽很多次結果他每一次抽簽都要去登記送文件送資料什麼做一次所以我覺得這個事情是非常的麻煩的所以我們一直在建議是說有沒有可能就是由中央跟地方合作我們就比照這個國外基本上都這樣做直接建立一個登記的平台"},{"start":5365.382,"end":5385.998,"text":"就是讓所有要社會住宅的人就來這登記你登記之後你才可以參加抽籤或參加評點所以我們就可以收集所有資料那這對政府而言呢我們就可以真正掌握精準的需求資訊不光只有數量包括區位他需要的房型剛剛也有很多先講他需不需要無障礙等等都可以了解這個訊息"},{"start":5387.299,"end":5402.712,"text":"而且從這個角度我們政府以後招租的時候我們就直接通知那些來登記人就好了吧他就很精準一定被收到那對於民眾而言最重要的是他就只要登記一次就好了那以後每一年政府再用資料勾基就好了"},{"start":5403.793,"end":5424.808,"text":"他就登記一次就好然後以後每一次招租的時候他要參加他就可以直接參與他不要每一次個別的社宅招租他就要去登記一次所以我們一直覺得這件事情是真的懇請內政部來去仔細思考而且這個做法是在國外是非常成熟行之有年的制度這是第一個"},{"start":5425.709,"end":5454.506,"text":"那這條文的建議我就不列可能到時候再提供給那第二個我們針對多元取得的部分因為一樣住宅法第五條說我們政府蓋社宅有很多方式可是我們現在基本上都是利用公有土地政府直接興建然後我們其他還有什麼都市計畫土地開發都市更新等等方式那我們有拿到之前內政部的數據事實上其他方式的數據都不是那麼的好"},{"start":5455.366,"end":5472.251,"text":"這整個績效不是那麼好那另外我今天想特別談這裡面當然有些是有困難像都更我也覺得不要太多的指望民間都我覺得兩個很有潛力的方向應該納入住宅法一個是整開整體開發另外一個是結合大眾運輸導向發展的TOD"},{"start":5474.292,"end":5495.387,"text":"那我先講整開,我們都了解在兩年前那行政院也說了說未來可能要有直轄市百分之五縣市百分之三這我們都完全支持,可是我覺得重點是這些指的是現在在省計畫的我講實話,這些地方正被開發出來十年之後所以我們是講一個十年以後會拿到這些地的大筆"},{"start":5496.067,"end":5515.938,"text":"可我要講的是現在眼前拿到的地就現在已經地方政府已經開發拿到的地或已經在開發中可能未來兩年三年拿到地我們現在的法令是無法去規範這件事情的那第二個事情是現在的做法是以後這些地呢我們國家租屋中心要去給它架構"},{"start":5517.318,"end":5542.999,"text":"要用成本架構我們現在其實大家很清楚我們光興建成本的財務壓力就很大了以後它連土地都要成本架構那這個模式是不是真的可行的我覺得我盡量特別談出來所以我一直覺得是這樣第一個事情是既然行政院都同意要這樣來做為什麼不把行政院這提升社宅用地公警經濟措施直接在住宅法明文"},{"start":5543.559,"end":5565.829,"text":"因為行政院的行政命令可能會變啦我們就直接把它變如果現在行政院同意嘛我們就把定在裡說屈增重劃就應該一定取得一定的社會住宅我覺得就把它直接入在法裡面去談那第二個事情我以前也在強調說我特別可能因為今天地政司司長也來我要強調說我們要不要配套去修平均地權條例跟4D重劃的辦法"},{"start":5568.533,"end":5596.494,"text":"把合建分屋列為地震機關土地處理的方式直接銜接我們住宅法第20條也說可以合建分屋因為我覺得這個好處是什麼我直接講第一個你們都說這個土地處分是要財務平衡合建分屋會不會比直接賣樹地從財務更有利對地震機關第二個如果這個角度地震機關如果在財務平衡之後我要合建屋取得屋簷會不會直接就變成社會住宅了"},{"start":5596.957,"end":5619.213,"text":"就不用再要什麼國家租居中心要編預算去買地再來蓋而且我覺得這次調動民間參與社宅最有效的方式就是用合建分屋我覺得你們過去提的其他方式我覺得台灣的開發商是不會接受也沒興趣所以這是我的建議調完我就不系列了反正到這再講另外一個我特別講一下"},{"start":5620.646,"end":5643.272,"text":"另外一個事情是TOD那個捷運一直被忽略簡單說我們行政院花了大量的錢去補助地方蓋捷運可是過去的機制我們從來沒有把住宅政策納入評估的效益就是他們在做這個捷運線的相關的評估計畫從來沒有住宅這事他們對住宅的想像是把他當成房地產"},{"start":5643.812,"end":5668.253,"text":"分到房子拿去賣賺很多錢然後讓捷運其實是這樣那我就舉例台北市現在要把一千多戶的連開宅都在出租喔出租率高達百分之九十五九以上他們說要把它賣掉因為他要錢就是在捷運站然後再來是說我們又地方政府在推很多TOD給了大量的容積可是這個容積給了半天之後到底有沒有拿到"},{"start":5668.533,"end":5691.028,"text":"事實上都沒有拿到什麼社會住宅這也是台北市另外一個案例文山區一個案例他用TOD新增了8000多坪的容積給建商一間社會住宅都沒有拿到這個就是我們目前的政策所以我們然後我覺得這個事情上我是很快講這個事情我們都是從美國談的美國現在就在談這件事我特別提像是美國聯邦政府2022年"},{"start":5692.349,"end":5717.051,"text":"他們中央已經通過一個促進臨近大眾運輸可負擔法案我建議大家可以參考一下最後我提一個建議我覺得我們應該要把大眾運輸跟住宅政策做結合就特別請內政部跟交通部來做所以應該是行政院以後核定新的捷運線的時候那個捷運線報告裡面一定要有住宅政策可以提供不然我覺得不應該核定因為我們還補助那麼多錢第二個事情是請"},{"start":5718.73,"end":5739.701,"text":"內政部國土署馬上做一個專案的方式來去檢討現在地方政府每一個做TOD他們都告處放容期可是都沒有拿到所謂的社會住宅或是出租住宅我想這個部分上一定要請內政部關注最後一個部分我要呼籲一下也請內政部呼籲一下我們應該制止台北市繼續再賣連開住宅的行為"},{"start":5742.122,"end":5758.519,"text":"他現在有一千多戶都在出租給民眾然後事實上他把它賣掉我覺得這個事情我希望內政部今天也可以表達一下你們的從住宅政策的立場謝謝好 謝謝彭洋凱秘書長的發言下一位我們請社會住宅推動聯盟廖廷輝研究員發言"},{"start":5767.911,"end":5785.534,"text":"委員先進大家好我是社會住宅推動聯盟廖廷輝那我今天要談的主要是我們提綱裡面關於學生住宿跟社會住宅的結合的部分那目前大學生的住宿問題其實還是變得非常的嚴重審計部的報告在那時候是說還有缺三萬多床"},{"start":5786.195,"end":5805.981,"text":"那在這件事情之後2019年吳思耀委員有質詢過這件事情就是對於學生住宿的問題那當時也推出了一個五年五十億的宿舍提升計畫只是到最後其實這個計畫它的效果並沒有很好就是學校實際提供的住宿比率其實甚至比當時質詢之前還要更低"},{"start":5807.981,"end":5837.259,"text":"那宿舍不足會造成什麼問題就是學生會欠缺有保障的一個住宿環境那首先目前就最新的資料來說的話學校提供住宿比例低於五成的學校還有35所而且裡面不乏很多是在都會區非常熱門的學校但是因為校地因為經費等等的原因他沒辦法提供更多的宿舍那沒有辦法提供如果沒辦法住在宿舍裡面的學生他就需要向外租屋但是大學周遭的生活圈其實有非常多的非法隔間的改裝"},{"start":5837.759,"end":5858.138,"text":"因為學生找租屋通常會是一個比較價格跟區位敏感的消費者那所以就很多消防跟安全是非常堪慮的一個狀況那這個表示目前我們收集到的包含就是整個宿舍提供率低於50%以下的35所大學那這個在大家手上的書面資料有我這邊就不贅述"},{"start":5859.909,"end":5889.082,"text":"那宿舍提升計畫為什麼效益不好那對於學校的宿舍新辦來說的話目前學校最嚴重的問題就是宿舍它目前教育部一直堅持都是一個自償性項目這件事情2019年吳委員諮詢的時候提過在去年范委員在公聽會上面的時候我們也提過但是教育部始終其實是堅持這件事情就是學校蓋宿舍你都要從學生宿舍裡面的漲宿舍費來去支應這個部分所以很多學校都不蓋宿舍"},{"start":5889.522,"end":5904.888,"text":"因為如果蓋了之後如果我不把租金調升那我就會虧錢那如果我把租金調升我就會被罵那我何不讓學生自己去外面租屋就好了那這個租屋反正也不是學校的責任所以學校他就不會傾向去投入成本去興辦改善宿舍的品質"},{"start":5905.808,"end":5925.94,"text":"那雖然其中裡面也有提到就是說學校可以去向外承租一般的民間住宅來去當作學生宿舍但是這個計畫其實本身有很多不合理的地方因為它等於是要求學校本身去擔任包租代管業者的角色他要去找物件 他要去談這些物件但我們都知道大學裡面目前宿舍的"},{"start":5927.681,"end":5952.721,"text":"相關的行政機關可能只有一位到兩位左右的可能是教官等等的他們要去校外去做這件事情怎麼可能怎麼可能做得到而且這個補助裡面也沒有目前涉災包租貸款裡面的相關的保險修繕公證的補助通通都沒有而且還要求學校說你還要提供給弱勢更低的就是住宿費的優惠所以對於學校來說這個完全不切實際做一戶虧一戶所以它的整個執行率只有1.7%而已"},{"start":5955.063,"end":5983.702,"text":"那校內宿舍不足而且新建學校的宿舍需要校方自籌新費很多學校的校地也不夠所以在這個角度底下社會住宅的政策他就更應該跟學生的居住問題來去做結合那監察院他也做了一個調查報告是說目前其實內政部在蓋的社宅裡面就91處社宅有62處是鄰近目前的大專院校的但是內政部跟教育部對於這件事情是完全沒有很像的一個整合就是對於學生住宿的問題是有缺口的"},{"start":5984.162,"end":6013.742,"text":"那也有很多社會住宅蓋在學校附近但是這兩邊的住宅資源有沒有再做一個整合其實並沒有那在去年的五月范雲委員辦的公聽會的結論裡面其實也有提到教育部應該要跟內政部六都去協商合作去納入既有的包租代管政策也就是說像我們現在各都都有很多的包租代管那有沒有可能教育部下去直接跟他們談說這個學校有好幾個學校是一個區域而這個包租代管業者提供一定比例的包租代管的物件給這些學生居住"},{"start":6016.142,"end":6042.888,"text":"那目前為什麼沒辦法做這件事情其實有兩個制度上面的困境第一個是之前內政部在107年的函釋是說目前如果要把社會住宅由大專院銷去承租之後再轉租給學生的話那這僅限於非營利司法人所以公立大學是不能用的而且轉租對象也有限制在去年的公聽會上面內政部國土署也是表達類似的立場他們就說這個部分是不適合作為由學校包租來去做使用"},{"start":6043.548,"end":6057.822,"text":"對 那目前我們知道說政大有一個個案是向台北市政府懲諸社會住宅作為學生來住宿使用但是都屬於個案的合作它並沒有通案化那第二個是教育部目前也沒有法源可以去跟主管機關再去做協商而且在大學"},{"start":6058.422,"end":6080.473,"text":"大專業校周圍一定地區裡面去用包租代管的專案來去媒合屋員工在校的學生去租住那各校雖然有零星的就是跟民間的房東去租房子再轉租給學生但是它目前跟既有的包租代管政策是完全沒有關聯的那是學校自己去做的它像是之前文化大學就有做過類似的事情它規模小而且也沒辦法同樣化"},{"start":6081.997,"end":6093.54,"text":"所以就具體的修法建議來說的話我們會建議說住宅法第35條的部分可以去多加一項讓公私立大學可以去租用社會住宅轉租給學生去緩解宿舍不足的缺口"},{"start":6094.488,"end":6116.846,"text":"那第二個部分是去增訂住宅法第52條的第三項明定教育部可以去跟主管機關協商來去在大專業校一定範圍之內以包租代管的專案方式去媒合屋苑供在校的學生去做居住那目前其實就社會住宅在中央這邊的興辦它逐漸的要開始完工了對 那比方說像台北市有很多的"},{"start":6117.506,"end":6137.174,"text":"大學它其實是沒有校地再來繼續蓋宿舍的那有沒有可能是有很多所大學比方說台大師大台科大等等這樣的大學如果他們都有宿舍需求的話有一個就近的社會住宅可能是跟內政部這邊去做協商去包租一層或是兩層就是否這個學生去做聯合宿舍去做使用"},{"start":6137.674,"end":6150.722,"text":"那對於學生來說他就有一個比較安全而且比較有保障的一個居住環境那對於學校來說他也不用去煩惱說他的宿舍到底要蓋在哪裡蓋完之後可能還需要很長的一段時間那這是我們的具體建議 謝謝好 謝謝廖廷輝研究員下一位我們請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":6168.66,"end":6191.467,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位今天到場的各位專家學者大家早安大家好今天我們的公聽會主題是社會住宅的現況與發展那社會住宅是政府為了協助民眾特別是比如中低收入戶青年弱勢族群提供租金較為親民的居住選擇來確保居住正義"},{"start":6194.068,"end":6219.833,"text":"那近年來大家知道隨著房價不斷上漲買房對許多民眾來講越來越困難所以社會住宅的重要性也予以提升那本期所在的選區是新北市中和區那我們總共我們中和區有40萬民眾未來預計的整個社會住宅大概有11件所以是非常的大那這邊我也先感謝我們所有政府機關的幫忙因為在社宅的預定地"},{"start":6220.553,"end":6248.46,"text":"現在很多我們在規劃設在運利地現在都還沒有開始興建社宅的部分其實我們也跟地方爭取了很多臨時的汽機車停車空間讓我們所有民眾是歡迎這個社宅而且未來社宅的整體的規劃那當然這邊我也提出一些建議我們希望說社宅在興建的時候是可以讓未來的民眾可以是所歡迎的那社宅一定要有一些配套的一些設施所以長照日照不能少"},{"start":6248.84,"end":6270.155,"text":"推陰推幼要增加以及未來設宅設立一定的停車空間以及民眾的一些共享空間那也希望說政府可以聽到我們的聲音來積極的去規劃那我們來看一下現況我們的社會住宅發展的一些狀況以台灣為例政府積極推動社會住宅的政策"},{"start":6270.695,"end":6281.958,"text":"依據內政部全國社會住宅興建統計表截至今年114年2月28號已完工的建樹現在還是稍微偏低總共才33,781戶其他有興建中以及絕標帶開工及規劃中的數量"},{"start":6290.22,"end":6309.46,"text":"還非常的多那除了現在新建的以外其實政府有透過包租代管的方式來增加供應量我們也非常感謝那事情可是實際上推動過程中仍然面臨許多的挑戰第一個就是現在民眾所最失望的部分就是供需失衡的部分"},{"start":6310.08,"end":6326.375,"text":"社會住宅的需求現在大於供給的數量非常多申請的人數往往超過實際提供的人數像我最近有去詢問一些我在排社宅的一些朋友他說他拿到的號碼大概三四百號代表說前面在排隊的人還有三四百個人"},{"start":6327.335,"end":6344.743,"text":"因為現在競爭激烈比如說在台北新北都會區等房價較高的地方許多民眾還是希望可以申請到社會住宅可是能入住的民有有限使得社會住宅難以完全滿足需求第二個就是我剛剛特別提到的"},{"start":6346.064,"end":6357.098,"text":"興建進度緩慢現在完工的只有33,781件總共要興建全國的社會住宅數量是179,573件完工的部分只佔現在的18.8%才接近兩成"},{"start":6363.887,"end":6393.247,"text":"社會住宅還需要很多的土地資金跟行政流程但希望說未來政府的部分可以結合地方的民意跟大家一起來努力可以希望他的整體的進度可以再加速最後租金補助跟包租貸款的機制仍需要優化因為政府現在也積極推出包租貸款由政府或是地方機構來媒合房東以及租屋者並提供租金補助"},{"start":6394.187,"end":6413.977,"text":"那可是現在大家就像我們常常聊到不僅現在很多的這個租黑數的問題以及房東擔心政策不穩定或是稅負等等或是租客數值的一些問題導致現在參與計畫的人數還是沒有一起來的多那我們也希望說這個機制可以進一步改善那最後"},{"start":6416.117,"end":6438.863,"text":"結論社會住宅我們認為是解決居住問題的重要政策之一它不是單純的便宜的房子而是關係到整體居住正義跟城市發展的重要議題需要政府企業跟民眾的共同努力我們希望透過多元的方式提高供應量改善政策的機制以及提升社區接受度"},{"start":6439.463,"end":6463.913,"text":"更幫助更多人擁有安穩的居住環境讓我們一起關注社會住宅的發展推動更公平更永續的居住政策讓每一個人都有一個安心的家最後代表我們所有中和的鄉親剛特別提到我們中和有11件社會住宅的案子我們非常積極的去關心整個整體的社會住宅的一個"},{"start":6465.213,"end":6482.278,"text":"進度那也拜託說住宿中心內政部可以當一樣配合地方大家一起協助可以盡快提供我們所需要的資料以上謝謝好謝謝張志倫委員的發言下一位我們請市立大學城市發展系技研究所李德權副教授發言"},{"start":6497.479,"end":6525.435,"text":"主席還有各位今天與會的各位大家早我今天針對這個主題大概有五個部分來做一些分享我想居住這裡大家都曉得這是我們今天開會的目的那其實剛才好幾位的發言其實都發覺這個議題其實不是只有內政委員會要跨部會來處理那當然我們今天重點會放在這個社會住宅的多元供給"},{"start":6528.656,"end":6546.015,"text":"我们看看其他国家他们面临这样的问题他们做了哪些事情我觉得这些部分有些部分刚好是可以让我们做参考譬如说刚才美国提到刚才彭向凯有提到包容性的分区等等"},{"start":6546.673,"end":6570.125,"text":"那這些部分我們臺灣其實如果各個中央到地方的住宅計畫夠明確的話他其實知道哪些地方是需要社會住宅那這個時候他可以透過都市計畫來指定某些地方做包容性的分區然後當然可以搭配一些容積獎勵然後讓這樣子的民間力量可以"},{"start":6572.069,"end":6594.971,"text":"那英國更是如此 他們每個開發案需要透過開發許可那譬如說我們拿最近一版的倫敦計畫那他們其實每年要提供五萬兩千戶的社會住宅那裡面有一半是可負擔的那為什麼能做到這個 他們善用民間資源"},{"start":6596.4,"end":6609.448,"text":"那當然法國他沒有租金補貼等等德國 日本 韓國 新加坡等等這些其實各國的他們實施的策略跟方案其實有一部分是值得我們學習跟參考OK我剛才講的這個這是London Plan這個50%的新的住宅要是affordable"},{"start":6624.4,"end":6647.159,"text":"那他們每年要興建五萬兩千戶那當然他們這裡面會有一些譬如說我們現在淨零所以95%的這個營建廢棄物要用回收的那其實這些部分也可以帶動我們現在邁向2050淨零的這樣子的目標共同前進那當然這個剛剛講到的這個這個"},{"start":6652.605,"end":6668.622,"text":"我們一些弱勢的交通也好或者是建築設計上那接下來我們來看看我們怎麼做所謂的多元新辦那這個我們看一下台灣的土地開發制度"},{"start":6670.008,"end":6694.776,"text":"從渡耕 圍牢 變耕 區段徵收 供辦 置辦 重劃然後這裡面看起來其實渡耕條例跟圍牢條例其實是相對來講是最不公平最不具有公益性的開發方式所以我們期待從這個方面做大規模的提供我覺得機會相對比較小一點好"},{"start":6697.011,"end":6724.514,"text":"那這裡面為什麼會談這件事情呢我們政府有很多資源放容機是一個資源但是我們想說如果社會住宅作為我們放容機的前提或者是配套這個時候我們給容機其實是有公共利益的那我們把這個現在不論是都更為老或者各項的獎勵項目如果我們從公共利益的角度來分析的話其實"},{"start":6725.891,"end":6738.425,"text":"具有提供公共財的其實為乎其為從這張表可以看得出來我們現在所有的隆基獎勵幾乎都談不上提供公共財提供公共利益那回到"},{"start":6741.67,"end":6759.092,"text":"比較有可能做的其實是地重劃區段徵收那我舉個例子台北市我之前在台北市服務台北市的區段徵收跟市地重劃辦的比例相對來講不小那大概佔整個台北市都市發展用地面積20%"},{"start":6760.965,"end":6786.387,"text":"那這些不只無償取得的公共設施不會造成現在台北市還有公保地需要兩兆等著來徵收之外他還提供了比較多元可能的這個方案來提供可負擔住宅那剛才其實大家有提到就是說整體開發區的這個安置戶我們舉個例子北市科"},{"start":6787.418,"end":6812.519,"text":"他的安置住宅还有另外在新办的社会住宅占计划容纳人口的14%那我们现在讲说我们这个台湾地区的这个涉灾的供给量希望不到1%然后希望说3% 5%其实曲断生说的他可以多做一点那大家就问说那财务上有没有什么问题"},{"start":6813.951,"end":6839.938,"text":"那我們拿實際的案例來看就是說我們不標授區段徵收剩餘可建築的土地然後我們改採地上權的方式來開發的話其實財務是有盈餘的就是說區徵不標授可不可以自償其實是可以的以北市科來看其實是這樣我們透過這個設定地上權其實就已經回本了而且還賺錢"},{"start":6841.724,"end":6852.492,"text":"那所以這件事情我覺得是我們其實可以藉這個機會來修改一下修改一下這個我們的這個平均低衡條例"},{"start":6853.951,"end":6881.521,"text":"讓這件事情能夠落實那這也是為什麼之前這個二十跟我這邊有我們有談說這個政府為什麼要繼續帶頭炒房就是區徵重劃的這個土地標售制度其實我們應該要檢討那剛才大家也曉得內政部也非常積極百分之三百分之五希望能夠透過行政規範然後審議的過程來處理這件事情不過我們覺得這個部分還是可以"},{"start":6882.628,"end":6911.54,"text":"更進一步採取比較強制的作為好那這是修法建議修法建議我想有幾個我可以在這邊特別強調的第一個就是我們的議題三有提到這個就是我們如何精進我們的住宅的評估因為我們的住宅法第18條已經寫了就是主管機關當然包含中央跟地方那說要做這件事情那"},{"start":6912.662,"end":6928.946,"text":"也許這個大家有做但是呢做得不夠落實那怎麼落實呢中央有中央的監督機關地方有地方的監督機關所以我們建議其實就是讓這些區個別的中央跟地方的這個住宅計劃能夠送到這個監督機關來做審查那除此之外這個"},{"start":6936.443,"end":6945.054,"text":"多元興辦政府部門的多元興辦我覺得也非常重要在目前這個階段所以我們提了一些主要的修正意見"},{"start":6946.243,"end":6970.49,"text":"那再來就是我們如何引導民間民間鼓勵民間興辦我們希望讓民間在資金蓋融資的部分也有一些挹注那最後就是弱勢那我想這個弱勢的部分呢我們特別期待針對這個所謂的居住水準針對弱勢的部分除了訂標準之外針對弱勢的部分要優先來處理"},{"start":6972.285,"end":6994.534,"text":"然後資訊透明我們覺得也是健全住宅市場要做的路好最後我想是這樣這是推動方案這個政府部門跟民間部門其實可以做這樣的事情然後這是我們的住宅的光譜那我們其實從計劃從財務從土地從我們的行動"},{"start":7001.099,"end":7027.272,"text":"民間每一年有10萬戶的住宅建設量那我們其實要利用這樣子的民間的力量然後搭配低利或者是我們納入這個政府部門的國土跟區域計劃都市計劃都市更新計劃實施輪候制然後分級租金補貼等等我想這個部分因為時間的關係我就留給大家做參考以上謝謝"},{"start":7029.864,"end":7036.604,"text":"好 謝謝我們李德權副教授報告委員會我們這個中場休息五分鐘大家透口氣"},{"start":7527.717,"end":7549.927,"text":"好報告委員會我們繼續開會下一位我們請新活力自立生活協會莊啟明辦公室主任發言不好意思因為我是身心障礙者那坐輪椅那發言台那邊可能比較不方便那我就容我在這邊沒有問題請然後我就在位子上發言這樣謝謝可以"},{"start":7551.548,"end":7577.171,"text":"那大家好那跟各位報告那我出生的原生家庭是在萬華的老家然後是沒有電梯的公寓大樓那家裡就是負擔不起那種有電梯大樓的房子大家都知道台灣什麼東西最貴就是房價最貴那尤其是雙北的房價又是一般的洗水階級的人沒有辦法承受得起"},{"start":7578.032,"end":7599.665,"text":"所以因此我住在沒有電梯的四樓公寓難以自行的上下樓那所以索性我在2008年的時候我搬出來過著自立生活的生活然後在租屋市場我也漂泊了十幾年那我期間搬了六次的家那不斷的在換房跟找房的過程中循環"},{"start":7600.706,"end":7618.337,"text":"那為了要找到願意租給我的房東我打上二三十通的電話然後到591租房找房子那都被拒絕打牆都是非常常見的一件事情但是很幸運的是在2021年9月的時候我入住在"},{"start":7619.178,"end":7635.088,"text":"台北市的内湖的瑞光社会住宅之后我深深的感受到社会住宅对我们弱势群体特别是急需无障碍设施的身心障碍如已使用者而言实在太重要了我们不用再"},{"start":7636.129,"end":7657.063,"text":"一般的租屋市场碰运气找到愿意出租的好房东也可以避免高额的房价跟房贷的困境但周遭的身心障碍者一听到我的租金一个月要将近一万元还是会感到非常的却步许多我认识的身心障碍者往往因为他的障碍程度比较高"},{"start":7658.365,"end":7687.591,"text":"所以他能够选择的职种也比较少即使能幸运就职往往也只有法定的基本薪资不然就是从事所谓的接卖或者是卖彩券维生等等收入实际是非常的不稳定因此涉及于低于每一个人所得30%以下的合理租金是非常的重要特别是我们身心障碍者还有额外的抚具如电动轮椅租厅器等等的耗材支出"},{"start":7688.413,"end":7709.99,"text":"那我们就想还有一些相关的医疗费用长照个人助理等支持能力的成本这些也未必都能够获得政府的全额补助经常是要附带一定比例的自付额因此针对特定族群特别是身心障碍者要计算跟"},{"start":7710.891,"end":7733.942,"text":"推估出合理的租金然后回归所得可负担的能力是我们所期待的所以我们也很期许内政部能够在住宅能够积极回应住宅法并且我们也很支持社会住宅推动联盟主张的定定合理租金依照个人的所得比例实践可负担的租金的居住正义"},{"start":7734.702,"end":7760.508,"text":"另外本會也主張不管是中央或地方政府應該持續的興建社會住宅達到住宅總量的5%以上避免剛才很多的先進所言的公佈應求除了興建社會住宅我們也必須要考慮到無障礙房那除了無障礙房其他房型應該要採取其他先進所言的通用設計的概念"},{"start":7762.03,"end":7790.122,"text":"讓社會住宅可以提供任何人的使用並且要設置在大眾交通便利之處那未來我們也很期待衛生福利部相關的社政服務也可以進駐社宅提供多元的社會服務最後也很強調一件事情就是我們弱勢戶要找到房子真的是太困難了那12年的年限到期之後我們希望能夠持續延長或者輪替其他社宅等等方式"},{"start":7790.982,"end":7818.109,"text":"保障我们弱势住户拥有居住权的保障以我们身心障碍者来说我们并不会因为岁月年岁的增长工作的增减而有所改变我们的障碍处境只会随着年纪越来越高而越日显严重所以应该不要受到所谓的12年的年限所约束可以提供长久稳定的居住"},{"start":7819.515,"end":7842.942,"text":"只要解決居住不正義社會問題不管是無家者居住消安或因為障礙增加的社會隔離等等的隱性社會成本自然可以迎刃而解那在此也感謝各位先進團體明代中央政府地方政府關注居住正義社會住宅那也非常的謝謝大家謝謝好"},{"start":7847.352,"end":7848.232,"text":"謝謝主席各位親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":7875.707,"end":7894.185,"text":"台湾目前处于房价飙涨高通棚已实质总薪资的成长 副成长在这样的困难的情况下有许多民众就仅能选择持续性的租屋无法去购买"},{"start":7896.827,"end":7899.51,"text":"所以主計處公佈的租屋指數於113年6月已經高達106.34在112年6月為10."},{"start":7914.905,"end":7939.111,"text":"103.66对租屋主的和经济和社会的弱势者影响不容忽视在少子化下生育第一胎比例大幅增加我们新住民来到台湾每一个家庭几乎每一个人都有生一个孩子但是在居住的部分也是受限"},{"start":7941.024,"end":7958.631,"text":"所以为了提升育儿的环境并保障国民居住的权益台湾民众党提出的草案版本将增加社会住宅提供弱势族群的比例也将放宽应有未成年的"},{"start":7960.332,"end":7963.714,"text":"成長子女數因為我們在參考不同的國家的需求另外我國駐載自從2011年推動採個案完工後再開放申請方式導致無法提前全盤性掌握民眾需求的資訊"},{"start":7985.626,"end":7993.811,"text":"作為政策的推動的依據所以在這裡草案也一併明定建議"},{"start":7996.584,"end":8015.442,"text":"建置社会租宅的需求登记平台,确实评估社会租宅之需求的总量,去位于信办的呼诉,纳入租宅计划及财务计划,并以社宅租金收费标准。"},{"start":8016.463,"end":8042.205,"text":"各域的现象落实租债的可负担租金也减轻我们国国人的养育优惠上的经济的负担除此之外这次也增订了将社会租债列区段征收公办室的种花应应得必要的公共措施"},{"start":8043.57,"end":8047.675,"text":"为了就是加速设载的新办也为了增加租屋市场的透明化增进包租贷款等机制也都有相当的对应的方法条"},{"start":8059.628,"end":8062.59,"text":"臺灣民眾黨期望能在租宅法上實質真正的社會正義但同時也希望在這個公聽會議上藉由不同的領域專家學者提供專業的建議還有策略我們希望在不同的領域不同的國家來去做參考"},{"start":8085.166,"end":8087.226,"text":"就像新加坡他們要如何成鄉的差距還有就是便民讓我們每一個地區到哪一個場合在哪一個不要有成鄉的差距這樣的話才真正的居住正義也達到說我們不同族群的需求還有我們的長輩在是說不管去到社區來去做學習"},{"start":8114.946,"end":8121.67,"text":"或者交流 還有各個族群在購物或者租物的時候才真正的達到就是變民還有讓我們的年輕人在不同的租屋的地方或者就業的地方才能有幫助所以很感謝各位專家學者今天來參加公聽會也給我們很多的寶貴的"},{"start":8142.636,"end":8161.331,"text":"的意見讓我們在內政共同來去推我們的住宅法還有就是我們居住正義落實以上謝謝好謝謝麥玉珍委員下院請台灣農草新慈善協會林姿秘書長發言好那主席"},{"start":8171.755,"end":8189.877,"text":"然後學者專家還有部會縣市的代表NGO夥伴大家好那我是芒草新秘書長銀子那我今天大概會比較就我們自己在無家者的這個領域的服務經驗然後希望可以對社會住宅的一些住宅法的修法上面去做一些我們實務上遇到的問題以及"},{"start":8191.078,"end":8209.673,"text":"也期待就是專家學者們還有就是公部門的夥伴是可以針對我們這邊的意見回應可以在說法上面能夠更貼近現實的需求那第一個主張就是我們支持放寬社會住宅就是經濟或社會弱勢的比例與標準然後我們會希望是以百分之百為終極目標雖然就是從最早的10%到2016年"},{"start":8213.756,"end":8237.313,"text":"提升到30%然後到2021年提升到40%那但因為我們這幾年雖然比例有提升可是我們自己在租屋市場上遇到的困境其實不管是服務對象租屋者也好或者是協助的社福團體也好我們其實真的覺得相當的疲累啦就是因為市場對於一些社會弱勢的排除其實完全沒有任何改善的跡象"},{"start":8238.274,"end":8252.286,"text":"那其實我們會有這樣的主張是因為一般家戶或青年其實他們在租屋市場上相對於老人身障者或遊民其實比較不會有遇到社會排除的狀況那會比較期待說以現在各種居住的配套或者是以"},{"start":8253.767,"end":8276.43,"text":"對一般戶或者是青年其實可以主要以經濟補助為主然後讓他們到市場上去能夠應該會相對於剛講的社會弱勢是更容易租到房子的那至於新建的社會住宅這樣的空間限定的空間其實應該是最大比例提供給弱勢者就是容易被社會排除的人其實應該是一個最理想的狀態那像香港他們其實就是一個這樣的制度"},{"start":8277.935,"end":8295.185,"text":"那第二個主張我們會我們也支持社會住宅推動聯盟的主張就是要一個人的收入來去設算然後自定出合理的租金分級那以我們服務的無家者為例他們在住宅法裡面是被定義為社會弱勢者但他們的平均收入是6000多"},{"start":8309.291,"end":8327.546,"text":"然後至於那個租金分級的部分就是以吳嘉哲來講他們其實不管以平均數或中位數來看其實也是無庸置疑的經濟弱勢者不是只有社會弱勢的狀態而已而且他們其實是極端的低收入者"},{"start":8328.703,"end":8351.569,"text":"但是因為現在現行社會救助法的一個制度上的排除所以其實只有不到一成的無家者有低收入戶的列冊那也就是說以現實情況來講他們的收入其實還遠低於一般低收入戶的貧窮線的一些標準但是他們卻因為沒有低收中低的身份他們其實在社宅的一個租金負擔上其實是高於低收跟中低的"},{"start":8352.182,"end":8375.562,"text":"那所以其實就變成說我們實務上服務的經驗我們很多無家者有一些無家者還有抽到抽籤抽到可是因為他還是沒有辦法負擔將近一萬塊的這樣子的一個租金支出所以他就是選擇了放棄那所以我們其實在租金分級的這個部分我們其實是一直以來都有在提都有在提倡說是不是可以在現行公告的一階租金以下再規劃0階或0.5階也就是說"},{"start":8378.685,"end":8404.305,"text":"針對極端低收入者可以再提供更低階的補助就是減免更多然後會希望有這樣的一個制度的設定才能夠真正回應到就是收入越低越貧窮的人他其實還是有機會進入到社會住宅居住其實若是那個所謂的若是若是居住正義那如果說在住宅部門對於這樣的租金的規劃沒有辦法去做這樣的處理的話那我們會期待微服部的角色要進來"},{"start":8405.166,"end":8431.743,"text":"就是衛福部從設政的角度應該是對於這些因為就算他的收入很極端的低可是他一樣有所謂的居住的權益那這些人的居住權益也應該要被保障那如果在制度上沒有辦法再租金去形成這樣子的一個規劃那衛福部或設政單位應該就要把經費編進來放在無力負擔最低階租金者的債減免或者是補助就希望讓這些"},{"start":8432.932,"end":8445.221,"text":"最貧窮的人他們其實也有機會可以住進去社會住宅那我們第三個主張就是衛福部應該是要在說法裡面再去強化他應有的角色功能那如果是以需求盤點這件事情來看"},{"start":8445.768,"end":8464.368,"text":"其實除了居住部門他們會關於居住的總量戶數還有財務做盤點之外那我們會期待衛福部的角色應該是在提供需求面值的評估那包括像弱勢住戶的樣態分析他們到底是小家庭比較多還是個人像獨居老人或無家者基本上都是個人"},{"start":8464.892,"end":8493.074,"text":"那這樣子的樣態到底比例是怎麼樣那這樣子的一個盤點或者是分析他其實可以提供給興建的時候後續的興建他們可以提供更多的實質的建議比方我們在坪數上或者是在房型上是不是什麼樣的房型三房的是不是需求真的有這麼多那如果說其實發現個人戶也很多那其實就可以增加更多更小坪數的設計那其實就會不管是在租金或空間上其實都可以讓更有需求的人是可以"},{"start":8493.598,"end":8519.067,"text":"可以去住進去的這樣子好那另外我們第四個主張也是會希望在社會住宅中去導入社福服務的系統因為其實現在大概我們都知道社會住宅他們對於租客的管理有一個祭典的機制就是他有一些違規的項目他只要違規祭典達到一個標準他其實就會被要求要請就是要離開但是其實應該是這樣說就是說那這些人他他所謂的違規就是只有被懲罰的這一個"},{"start":8520.547,"end":8549.461,"text":"就是這個途徑嘛那其實他違規背後的這個行為背後的一些意涵他可能是可能是失覺失調的狀況或是他可能有些成癮行為他可能是需要被協助然後可以透過某一些福利系統的導入然後可以讓他可以避免有這些行為然後也可以維護住他居住的權益那所以其實我們會比較建議是社福系統應該是要有一些資源的提供就是究竟在社宅裡面就應該要這樣子的一些比方心理支持或戒營的服務等等"},{"start":8550.08,"end":8571.956,"text":"然後才能夠保障他們的居住權益好那另外第五個主張其實應該是這個比較是廣義的社會住宅的部分就是目前就是我們有很大的社會住宅的量體是來自於就是民間或市場的一些包租代管的這樣子的一個專案那其實我們一直以來都有在協助無家者在去做"},{"start":8573.011,"end":8592.765,"text":"市場租屋的這個區塊那其實實務工作者回應給我們的是說其實他們感覺到現在包租代管的一些業者他們其實現實的數字也是就是現在是代管案遠遠大於包租案也就是說其實他們然後他們只是在於衝高要把那個案件數衝高"},{"start":8593.906,"end":8621.561,"text":"可是對於仲介業者他們其實有些服務品質的把關其實目前的法沒有辦法提供太多的要求因為現在就是充量那所以我們遇到的情況就是只要是市場上的房東或業者覺得我們的租客的風險比較高可能就是比較偏什麼單身男性或高齡或生長者他們其實就會要求要連帶保證人或者是甚至就保證人然後或者是就是會在談的時候他一直把租金往上調然後"},{"start":8623.287,"end":8636.719,"text":"業者也會協助房東去很嚴格的去篩選掉一些真正需要的弱勢對象那其實這個排除的現象其實在目前的包租代管市場沒有辦法有一個好的回應我們也曾經有打電話去"},{"start":8638.123,"end":8667.502,"text":"去问过就是地方政府的一些住宅部门然后第一个没有申诉管道第二个他们说在业者的部分的管理目前还没有很完整的机制那这个也就会让我们很担心就是说那如果这样的一些空间出来其实没有办法让社会落实者真正入住的话那到底是落实了谁的居住正义那这一点也是促使我们会回应到刚刚第一点主张就是我们会希望如果在市场上没有办法让这些人好好的住那是不是至少在社会住宅的空间上面是可以完全保障让他们可以入住的"},{"start":8668.149,"end":8676.146,"text":"那以上是馬草星的建議 謝謝好 謝謝李銀之秘書長下一位我們請一鏈社會福利基金會林登偉主任發言"},{"start":8683.411,"end":8700.201,"text":"主席各位先敬大家平安我是伊甸基金會的主任林登偉伊甸基金會是做生性障礙服務起家的一個基金會所以我們今天會從生性障礙服務的一個立足點去談我們對於社會住宅住宅法的三個主要的訴求"},{"start":8701.822,"end":8713.592,"text":"生意障礙者其實我們在租屋的市場最常面臨到的困境大概有三個一個是社會的歧視另外一個是環境的無障礙第三個就是關於貧窮的議題"},{"start":8716.594,"end":8742.626,"text":"因為社會的歧視或者是因為其實這個社會上很缺乏無障礙的物件所以其實對於身心障礙者我們而言很常會面臨到的是找不到住的地方或租不到住的地方這樣子的問題再來是在租屋的市場裡面如果是無障礙的物件它的租金通常會比較高可是其實身心障礙者身心障礙跟貧窮其實是互為因果的關係"},{"start":8743.726,"end":8769.844,"text":"那就勞動部的調查身心障礙者有在工作的收入跟整體勞工的工作收入的平均其實身心障礙者大概是只有七成左右所以再加上身心障礙者我們其實在生活上會有很多因為身心障礙的額外的開銷好比說我的輔具的開銷或者是我的照顧人力的開銷或者是我的交通的開銷其實都比一般人還要多"},{"start":8771.565,"end":8796.82,"text":"在這個收入比較低但是開銷又比較高的情況下生意障礙所我們也會面臨到住不起或者是住不好的一個情況所以在這個第一個訴求我們就是支持社會住宅推動聯盟的主張我們希望內政部可以儘速去研擬然後去公佈依這個收入去射算的可負擔的租金的標準那我們其實已經跟內政部有過很多次的研商的會議"},{"start":8797.74,"end":8816.908,"text":"我們也會希望可以知道內政部現在的延伸的版本是大概是怎麼樣是不是可以真的確保說租金是依收入射算而且是可以負擔的然後也是不是可以真的照顧到那些最極端貧窮的人們他真的住得起我們的社會住宅"},{"start":8821.317,"end":8834.875,"text":"這個然後再來是這樣子的租金的標準如果有設算出來應該是要儘速的公佈那讓我們社會住宅可以確保是真的讓每個人都真的住得起然後社會住宅如果要住得好除了在這個租金之外還有"},{"start":8836.996,"end":8854.562,"text":"居住的空間跟社會住宅的服務那一開始張教授其實有提到他其實也會關心到說他的學生住在社會住宅他的居住的品質如何那所以我們第一個訴求其實是社會住宅是社會福利基本法裡面明定的社會福利項目之一那衛福部其實應該要強化"},{"start":8855.942,"end":8872.899,"text":"在社会住宅居住福利的这个角色因为社会住宅不是我们房子盖好人住进去就没事了其实我们很关心说每一个住进到社会住宅里面的人我们住在住宅的这段社会住宅的这段期间他是不是过得好那当他租期到了"},{"start":8874.04,"end":8894.883,"text":"他離開的時候他的狀態是不是可以比他住進來的時候還要更好他的資本不管是他在知識上能力上的資本或者是他在人脈上的資本或者是他在財務上的資本是不是可以累積到更多那其實這都不是說他住在社會組織裡面就會自己長好"},{"start":8895.484,"end":8912.366,"text":"或者他必須要用到現在社會福利制度裡面產補制的一些福利就可以長得出來那我們也會希望說在社會住宅當中可以有以發展性社會工作觀點去提供的針對社會住宅的民眾或針對這個區域的社區的民眾提供的支持"},{"start":8914.555,"end":8931.7,"text":"這樣子的社會住宅裡面的居住服務應該是要由哪個機關來負責其實現在有點莫衷疑世現在住宅法第二條其實已經明定了社會住宅是社會福利的項目之一第十一條也其實明確的說明社會住宅的內容"},{"start":8933.819,"end":8958.942,"text":"目前衛福部其實也有承諾說會研擬住宅服務的實驗案我們覺得這個是一個好的方向可是其實在現在住宅法裡面其實沒有明確的去規範衛福部在社會住宅的居住服務裡面的角色所以我們其實會呼籲衛福部應該要更強化你們自身在社會住宅的居住服務裡面的角色要把這樣子的角色明定在我們的住宅法當中"},{"start":8960.143,"end":8975.255,"text":"剛剛有提到我們會關心一個人他住在社會住宅租期到了他離開之後的狀態就是講到第三個我們的訴求就是關於租期的部分我們之前也會提到關於身心障礙者或者這些年長者"},{"start":8976.856,"end":9005.375,"text":"一些弱勢的群體我們的在社會住宅的租期其實是沒有道理的因為剛剛提到身心障礙者我們面臨到居住的困境不管是社會的歧視或者是環境的障礙這些都不會隨著我6年或者是12年的租期到了他就消失了那真正年長者他也不會因為過了6年或過了12年他在租屋市場遇到的困境就會減輕那應該反而是更嚴重的"},{"start":9006.816,"end":9031.242,"text":"所以對於這樣子的群體我們的租期其實應該是要再更放寬的我們在大概8年前在倡議租期這件事情的時候其實政府告訴我們的是說在那個時候其實社會住宅還沒有幾戶在資源稀缺的情況下其實會覺得說是不是先讓最迫切有需要的人可以先租到所以租期還是先維持可是時間已經經過了8年"},{"start":9033.423,"end":9048.393,"text":"其實我們在中央或在地方推動社會住宅的興辦都已經有一定的成果了那我們覺得其實關於租期這樣子的限制其實是可以更放寬的那其實有一些群體我們的居住的困境不會因為"},{"start":9049.494,"end":9067.674,"text":"租期到了我就解除了其實針對這樣的群體我們應該要再討論我們的租期是不是可以放寬是不是可以再更有彈性或者是更不去限制它的租期讓真正有需要的人我們不需要抽到社會住宅那一刻開始擔心我六年之後怎麼辦"},{"start":9068.675,"end":9092.921,"text":"我12年之後怎麼辦?那就身心障礙者而言你去想一下這個初期我住進了社會住宅剛剛金鐘這個常務監事有提到我可能住進去我還要做一些無障礙的改善那是一筆錢我如果今天初期到了我要搬出去我要復原那個復原其實也是一筆錢那這個錢其實跟他當初在做改造的錢其實差不多的現在其實是double的錢那"},{"start":9094.037,"end":9120.982,"text":"何必如此呢他其實就在這邊住得好好的我們其實可以不要讓人們存在這樣子的要去被變動要去被遷居的一個壓力當中這樣的一個焦慮當中或者是他要去做無災改善又要再做復原這樣子的經濟的焦慮當中所以我們會希望這樣子的租期的放寬也可以再納入到這一次的住宅法的修法當中以上分享謝謝大家"},{"start":9123.376,"end":9146.949,"text":"謝謝林登維主任下一位我們請黃建豪委員好謝謝主席那我想今天很榮幸來出席我們住宅法修法的系列公聽會也感謝所有這個學者專家還有我們召委的安排那我想這次這個社會住宅我想對於年輕時代特別影響非常重大我想先跟大家分享一個數據很多人可能都知道我再次訴諸一遍"},{"start":9148.05,"end":9157.994,"text":"到目前到今年1月底為止全國的社會組織已完工了32,984戶興建中54,648戶以絕標代開工33,225戶規劃中58,568戶所以總計台中台灣的社宅大約如果全部都如期而且按照計劃興建完成大概是179,425戶大約18萬左右的戶數那這個戶數到底夠不夠呢我剛好在本週的業務質詢裡面也跟內政部長跟國土署有來請問一下"},{"start":9177.443,"end":9205.109,"text":"他們現在規劃的這個社會住宅數量大概約25萬戶左右那25萬戶左右這個數字怎麼來的當然有不同的計算標準他們是依照全國的住宅的體量那抓ID的比大概2.5%算出了25萬戶這樣的數字那我的25萬戶怎麼算出來的我的25萬戶是依據光是我們台灣現在的因為我們社會住宅法第四條規範的經濟或社會弱勢者低收、中低收、特殊境遇家庭總戶數"},{"start":9206.129,"end":9223.778,"text":"大約現在就是25萬戶4879所以按照這樣的數字光是要維持保護基本的這個居住的需求就需要25萬戶那如果按照現行政府規劃的全部興建完大約也只有十八十九萬戶的情況下面我想第一個"},{"start":9224.738,"end":9251.832,"text":"數量是絕對不夠的所以數量絕對不夠但第一方面我們希望政府能夠多興建一點社會住宅是第一件事情那第二部分當然透過現在的所謂租金補貼來去平衡或是去過渡這個我是覺得勉強能夠接受但是我們當然希望說住能夠長期的來保障稍早之前我剛剛上一位這個我們伊甸基金會的有提到一個事情我剛好聽到我也很認同就是我們不斷在提就是社會住宅的租屋期限從三年"},{"start":9251.992,"end":9274.417,"text":"到6年這件事情其實我覺得這是遠遠不足滿足這個現代的居住需求為什麼我們要這樣講呢我們常常去講一個新加坡的例子那當然我國的環境跟新加坡是完全不一樣這個我接受我也承認但新加坡有一個精神我覺得我是可以去效仿的就他們對於國民的基本居住的需求的照顧跟資本主義炒房是脫鉤的就是說"},{"start":9276.457,"end":9296.628,"text":"政府要怎麼樣解決資本主義往金錢追逐的這個目標我覺得非常困難坦白說我不認為有任何政府能夠真的做到即使是新加坡這樣子的相對已經比較專制的政府他也做不到所以到底要怎麼樣讓多數的民眾有基本居住需求的民眾能夠符合這個居住的條件我覺得這是政府要去"},{"start":9297.548,"end":9319.005,"text":"不是打房當然是一個政策沒錯但是打房同時我能夠保證到所有的有居住需求人能夠住到合理房價的房子嗎這件事情我是持著保留態度所以與其去解決高房價去解決資本主義帶來的問題還不如政府能夠負起一定的責任去保障"},{"start":9319.465,"end":9330.432,"text":"我剛剛提到至少25萬戶的基本需求但是又同時一件事情如果25萬戶全部都是住所謂住宅法第十條規範的經濟或社會弱勢的話那就會陷入社會陷入一個討論就是所謂的這個標籤化的問題所以我想25萬戶當然還是不夠另外這個部分我剛剛提到的多興建社會住宅"},{"start":9339.398,"end":9354.115,"text":"跟透過租屋補貼勉強來彌平之外我們還是希望說後續在這個住宅的使用上面能夠提因為我看內政部也有相關的一些計畫但是一直還沒有送出來就是比較屬於長期的這個使用權住宅這個方案如果使用權住宅"},{"start":9354.275,"end":9382.575,"text":"住宅我想能夠提供10年到20年左右的時間我想對於有基本的居住需求的民眾我想才有一定程度的保障因為我想就算即便今天私有住宅一般人的房子就算你真的買一個房子大約住20年30年可能都會有搬家的需求因為你從小到大你大概20歲成年出去工作幾年之後你都會搬離原生家裡大概社會現在的狀態長得是這樣所以如果使用權住宅的部分能夠興建而且能夠提供"},{"start":9383.155,"end":9405.148,"text":"10到20年以上20年左右的這個使用期限的話我想對於舒緩居住需求是有一定程度的幫助那最後一點時間我也要再次的強調除了所謂社會弱勢之外我在立法院裡面也有對住宅法提案也有強調說這個居住保障除了社會弱勢和經濟弱勢之外我覺得少子化既然大家都一致認為"},{"start":9405.808,"end":9431.617,"text":"是真正的國安問題的話我想提供這個年輕的父母有新生兒的家庭能夠優先入住社會住宅我覺得也是一個條件之一我想如果現在很多人年輕人不婚或是年輕人不生很多原因就是因為這個如果你生了小孩我自己有小孩清楚這個房子是一個很高的支出養小孩也是很高的支出我們一邊每個月給他幾萬塊幾千塊請他生小孩但是我想"},{"start":9432.057,"end":9452.78,"text":"給我們小孩支出最大比的開銷就是學費還有這個什麼居住成本所以如果能夠把居住成本這件事情讓民眾沒有後顧之憂的話我想這件事情可能也有效來解決台灣的這個少子孩問題那以上的分享謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員下一位我們請學藝工程技術顧問公司蔡佳敏總經理發言"},{"start":9466.383,"end":9483.417,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安大家好我們學藝工程顧問公司實際上是長期協助我們這個中央政府還有各地方政府來擬定住宅政策還有執行住宅計劃所有相關的這個剛剛不管是"},{"start":9484.176,"end":9502.997,"text":"政策這邊所提到的有關住宅需求動向調查這個我們也執行過那這個那個李委員這邊剛才提到的有關這個各個住宅計畫我們大概都執行過那但是實際上就是說真正那些調查現在的住宅需求的這個推估"},{"start":9503.417,"end":9526.438,"text":"都只是推估而且都是一個可能是年度或者是10年才一次的一個調查這個部分完全沒有辦法真實的反映我們真實的這個社會住宅的需求從幾個現象就很明確看到我們現在這個社會住宅每次抽籤就會爆量的這件事情從北到南我最近問了高雄最近台南也在抽"},{"start":9526.938,"end":9541.409,"text":"看起來他們都是百倍的這個這個提供的數量在抽籤這個當然就是說因為現在才剛剛開始供給但是我們當然就是說這個事情實際上沒有辦法反映真實的這個需求真實的需求有幾個面向一個是說"},{"start":9541.989,"end":9564.101,"text":"他要主動真的有需求來去做這件事情而且他可能是沒有替代那我們現在的這個狀況實際上是我們的住宅政策有三個大的面向租金補貼包租代管社會住宅那但他有可能選擇租金補貼或包租代管這件事情他不一定選社會住宅但他哪一下他真正需求這件事情沒有任何的真實的一個數據"},{"start":9565.482,"end":9584.262,"text":"那我們這邊建議是有兩個這個事情要做第一個是贊同剛剛這個奧爾斯秘書長彭雄凱這邊所講的有關這個社會住宅需求的這個平台的建立這件事情但是在中華民國我們必須要講說台灣是一個非常進步的一個地方就是說我們電子化政府做得很好那我們的工人非常的奉公守法"},{"start":9584.642,"end":9610.727,"text":"非常遵守這個各自法相關事情所以這個整合平台這件事情中央現在有想要做台北的事情也希望今年要做但是有一個事情非常非常重要請在住宅法裡面法裡面直接要明確的授權說我們要訂這個整合平台的時候實際上是為了要來做我們租金補貼、社會住宅、包租貸款等等資料的檢核你是不是合格符合這些資訊因為沒有授權"},{"start":9612.206,"end":9635.823,"text":"這個我們已經參加過台北市的相關的會議也包括中央的會議都非常的荒謬好笑就是說台灣這些資料都有啦你是不是弱勢衛福單位都有啊你是不是加油未成年子女三名通通都有但是他們通通沒有辦法提供然後中央還要跟地方講說我們有這個經驗啊台北市你不要緊張啊什麼的第一次看到中央還要去跟台北市講過去都台北市跟中央講"},{"start":9637.085,"end":9651.141,"text":"這個就是說他們講很明確請告訴我住宅法哪一條有授權說我們可以來提供這所有的資料給住宅單位說我們可以建這個整合平台說大家可以批次性的取得資料而且這個事情做"},{"start":9652.221,"end":9675.547,"text":"拜託中央一定要中央主導一次做好而且要落地最近開會的講法是說資料不落地中央做好之後不會給地方政府使用那但是很抱歉各地方政府社會住宅的這個政策他每一個標準是不一樣的那如果各個單位資料回來的時候又不是有完整的資料而是只是跟你講這個條件是否允許是否符合告訴你的收入是100"},{"start":9678.308,"end":9694.029,"text":"報數你的收入比方說是68萬這個5000塊這是你真正一年年收而不是告他可能回來只是告你說他是不是在所謂我們的這個財產的這個門檻以下那這樣子在各縣市很難來都來使用這些事情所以這第一個整合平台"},{"start":9695.267,"end":9722.038,"text":"那第二個事情是我覺得還有另外一個很重要資料庫是這樣我們現在已經有這個一年300億的租金補貼然後有包租貸款有社會住宅政策但我們不知道一件事情我們這個明明低收中低收可能是我們最重要的弱勢而且這些人是沒有自用住宅的有一大部分的比例但我們不知道一件事情是他們為什麼這裡面有超過50%的低收沒有自用住宅他也沒有來申請租金補貼也沒有申請社會住宅原因是什麼不知道"},{"start":9723.488,"end":9730.562,"text":"問了每一個地方政府的社會福利單位可不可以跟我們講一下你們實際上應該按法你們要去做這個調查有沒有去調查抱歉沒有"},{"start":9731.88,"end":9752.645,"text":"社會福利相關法令有規定他們應該要去做掉但沒有在執行所以這件事情也應該要明定在法令裡面社會福利單位應該要來做他們有關福利身份的新訂或者是每年在複合這些資訊的時候應該要去查核他們真正居住使用的狀況而且我們應該花了每年300億的租金補貼要講清楚說"},{"start":9754.085,"end":9777.96,"text":"到底有多少弱勢他們現在是有申請租金補貼有申請包租貸款申請社會住宅那沒有來申請的是因為他不知道還是說他不符合資格還是因為他怕失去福利身份這個是另外一個資料庫應該要建立而且現在就應該都有這些資料只是說我們這兩個單位就沒有合起來就是拜託內政部跟衛福部真的好好討論一下這個事情怎麼來合作"},{"start":9779.468,"end":9798.199,"text":"那另外第二個事情就是說我們也贊同剛剛那個阿爾斯秘書長彭雄凱這邊所提的這個整開就透過區段徵收跟世紀同化來提供一定的社會住宅這個數量這個我們在台北市這個包括這個木柵路四段五段區段徵收那個是一個很小的一個範圍裡面也做這個事情也被要求但是我們被要求的時候非常的訝異說"},{"start":9799.46,"end":9817.545,"text":"那個範圍非常非常小而且我們都已經進行了五年六年之後才跟我講這件事情法上面沒有明定的時候所有大家都會覺得非常的錯愕為什麼在小組上面被要求這件事情法上面就是沒有所以這個事情應該要入法不然其他工人會講說法上面又沒有啊為什麼你一執行這個命令就要求我做這件事情"},{"start":9818.545,"end":9837.177,"text":"那另外一個就是說我們也做了台北市、新北市、台中還有這個高雄的增額容積的制度都是我們公司來協助處理但是也跟大家報告說大家的那個增額容積案件非常多啊而且錢收了幾十億上百億的錢啊但是這些有沒有申請出任何一戶社會住宅抱歉沒有"},{"start":9838.378,"end":9847.451,"text":"跟大家講社會住宅裡面我們有一個很好笑很實務的狀況社會住宅下面通常規劃停車位但是這個停車位通常都用不滿表示這些人都是什麼騎機車可能去轉捷運轉公車"},{"start":9850.222,"end":9877.058,"text":"所以這些實際上是最好的增加捷運運量的一個這個使用者而且真的你在捷運的周圍不一定要在捷運站上捷運周圍都可以來做這個社會住宅對於整體的他們的這個社會福利的提升實際上是有很大幫助所以這個也應該要把它放進去因為各地方六都現在都在做真的容積的這個制度好那另外一個就是說基本就是水準為什麼特別要提這個事情一樣是租賃住宅這個事情我們花了300億的這個部分去做但是我們"},{"start":9877.538,"end":9899.087,"text":"掌握的資料非常非常的少我的理解非常非常少而且不敢公開我覺得這個事情是有點荒謬就是說花了每年300億去做租金補貼但是要求人家提供什麼只有提供一個是你申請人的相關資料之外這個資料還沒有包括住宅的品質所有相關資料只有你的帳戶資料就是未來讓他好收錢"},{"start":9900.017,"end":9927.143,"text":"那所以這個住宅到底是不是頂家是不是這個隔套是不是雅房不知道但是實際上我們去調查發現非常大量的隔套雅房頂家都存在這些事情即便你現在不公開但是你應該要掌握這些資料而且在行政程序上面就可以來處理這件事情沒有什麼做不到因為大家來申請補助申請補助就應該要填資料資料裡面就可以取得這件事情那另外基本居住水準這個實相在國外最重要基本居住水準是定義在租賃住宅"},{"start":9927.443,"end":9944.968,"text":"而且地政司在前幾年已經研究完所有的國外重要的先進國家裡面租賃水準的基本居住水準如何來定而且應該規範房東或是有房客來檢舉通通都可以來作業這件事情地政司已有成熟相關報告所以這個部分我們建議基本居住水準未來修法應該是以租賃住宅為優先"},{"start":9946.048,"end":9968.798,"text":"而且這個部分要有一些檢核的一個機制來申報跟檢核那基本居住者的定義應該操作型定義一定要大幅修正因為目前是用戶證資料我們的戶證資料跟實際居住實際上有非常非常大的落差完全不可採用好謝謝蔡佳銘總經理的發言下一位我們請台灣社會福利總盟孫盈姓秘書長發言"},{"start":9987.322,"end":10000.791,"text":"主席 我們各位夥伴 大家早我是台灣社會福利總盟孫益新秘書長首先我今天主要的重點要放在我們住宅法第33條跟第34條的一個議題"},{"start":10004.133,"end":10019.711,"text":"那首先我還是必須非常感謝內政部、國土署、住都中心還有我們各地方政府的一些督發局、城鄉局等那大家很努力在推社宅才有我們在今天這樣的一個討論"},{"start":10021.152,"end":10034.706,"text":"那剛才我們夥伴也有提到在前年5月5日在立法院這邊有三讀通過社福基本法也將社福將社宅納入我們社會福利的事項跟範圍那"},{"start":10037.369,"end":10050.28,"text":"在那個我今天第一個要談的就是33條的部分因為我們現在除了六都以外大部分的縣市的社宅是由我們國住都中心來興辦那在這個興辦過程其實社福團體最care的還是"},{"start":10054.284,"end":10077.21,"text":"能不能透過在這個社宅興辦過程當中能夠獲取一些社福設施在台北市其實透過社宅的興辦低樓層作為社福設施的用途增加250個服務單元那在這個過程裡面我們發現其實有些縣市並沒有提出要做社福設施的需求那這樣的一個狀況我覺得有一個"},{"start":10080.671,"end":10105.53,"text":"很程序上的問題就是說我們這些社福設施由住都中心興辦的不管是安居或者是好事在徵詢地方政府意見的時候是不是有公開這裡只有一個依據就是會議紀錄在會議紀錄裡面提到部件原則就是中央附屬社會住宅附屬設施空間以老人製造"},{"start":10106.331,"end":10127.206,"text":"托嬰幼兒園身上的社區服務為主那這個部件原則主要在談的是如果沒有參見或補助就要收取租金的議題第二個是評估流程本部國土署於先期規劃會邀請社宅所需地區然後提出這樣的一個是否有部件企劃"},{"start":10128.047,"end":10145.274,"text":"那我詢問過我們非常多中南部的社福團體其實我一直跟他們強調你們要爭取一些服務就是爭取在社宅裡面提供服務可是從來沒有人跟我說他們知道什麼是安居什麼是好事什麼事要先辦"},{"start":10146.514,"end":10171.652,"text":"地方政府社會局他可能不會透露這樣的一個訊息所以在這個過程裡面我覺得有一些部分要調整一個是在先期規劃會議前應該預告周知不能只有政府機關獲得訊息民間團體也要一併告知第二個建議是社會福利設施不是只有在社會局才主管在衛生局勞工局他們也都有自己的角色"},{"start":10172.212,"end":10194.038,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分也要一併通知另外我建議要修正以社區式服務為優先的這樣的一個字眼因為目前在設施需求最主要欠缺的剛性需求是機構式服務機構式服務在社宅裡面當然會有很多設計規劃的問題包括它可能要有不同的出入口"},{"start":10194.698,"end":10214.697,"text":"它的樓層的規劃設計不能連通等等的當然設計會比較困擾但實際上這個卻是民眾的一個優先的需求第四我要建議國家住住中心要依據社福基本法第14條會嫌衛生福利部與民間團體及需求者代表進行社會住宅"},{"start":10215.558,"end":10235.81,"text":"社福設施委辦的一個架構性協商那大家才會知道說裡面的政策目標我們要怎麼訂包括給付項目報酬項目品質項目的協商這些同時都要進行那接下來我要談的是社宅裡面社福的角色我們在第34條裡面有規範我們要提供必要的社會"},{"start":10236.73,"end":10245.485,"text":"服務那回到第19條我們的社宅有新建的社宅也有包租代管那這兩類我們要如何來提供服務"},{"start":10247.216,"end":10268.091,"text":"各位在住宅界可能比較不清楚我們社福界目前有非常多的系統那社福的需求也非常的複雜那包括我們之前從107年的社安網那社安網裡面就有社福中心跟新衛中心的設立那包括我們有早療中心還有教育階段的"},{"start":10269.472,"end":10292.532,"text":"學生輔導中心、少年中心、老人中心、長照管理中心、A個管、身障服務中心以及各種成年及兒少保護要通報的事項這其實是一個非常複雜的系統這裡都還沒有包括像勞政的救福中心或衛政的一些相關的一些國家衛生等等的一些"},{"start":10294.355,"end":10314.202,"text":"一些需求以及跟保姆公托公幼有關的需求那這個界面其實非常複雜他其實很需要有人去協助這些住民做一些協助那跟居住課題有關的議題包括入住前有居住屋主歧視的議題有居住選擇跟搬家的議題"},{"start":10317.583,"end":10339.642,"text":"那我們現在社宅有評點制就是有一些最弱勢的包括身障跟老人可能透過評點在那40%的量體裡面可能可以優先入住但是實際上我們包租代管我們對於弱勢的定義就是社會住宅法第四條的經濟跟社會弱勢有13類那這13類彼此其實是在競爭物件的"},{"start":10343.823,"end":10349.455,"text":"那這樣的一個競爭物件的情況之下老人或者是身上者絕對競爭不過育幼"},{"start":10352.782,"end":10378.525,"text":"未成年子女兩人以上的家庭這個其實會變成業者的優先選擇但是其實它是符合經濟跟社會弱勢那在這個過程裡面就會產生競爭所以我們現在大家在倡議又要把育有未成年子女兩名要改成為育有未成年子女一名我覺得這個部分的競爭會更加的激烈這個部分請立法院這邊要好好去思考這件事情"},{"start":10379.306,"end":10398.851,"text":"第二個入住之後有租金繳納延遲生活習慣違規或者是住宅住戶之間溝通或與屋主溝通的問題老少照顧安排的問題其實都非常的複雜所以我對於在社宅裡面以及包住代管的服務有一些建議第一個就是"},{"start":10399.671,"end":10421.379,"text":"社會住宅的服務應該以營造弱勢住戶的生活感為一個我們的政策目標它其實並不是像我們傳統個案管理就是要去提供他什麼協助其實現在的民眾有拒絕社福協助的權利也不是所有的弱勢民眾都很願意被人家協助"},{"start":10422.119,"end":10443.917,"text":"第二個我們要在社區用社區營造的方式來取代第三個就是除了社福的設施以外一定量體以上的單一社宅或鄰近幾個小型的社宅基地應該委託民間社福團體以社區營造方式為入住社宅居民提供社福相關的服務"},{"start":10444.938,"end":10457.006,"text":"那在包租貸款這一塊我覺得有三個建議就是要增列第19條之一將包租貸款比例將包租的比例提高到包租貸款的到50%並且以政策獎勵業者"},{"start":10460.788,"end":10477.638,"text":"弱勢的這樣的一個服務費舉個例子來講我們去定義特別弱勢的部分像特別有肢體障礙有無障礙需求的或者是有70歲以上老人的他們租屋有困難那這個部分應該獎勵業者"},{"start":10479.119,"end":10493.69,"text":"那第二個就是包租的房東要繳交二代健保代管不用這個部分也建起內政部跟健保署洽商來排除這樣的一個問題第三個建議就是中央主管機關要與衛福部洽商"},{"start":10494.711,"end":10516.953,"text":"建立弱勢處於協助機制例如進行弱勢租客分歧以及發展居住社工的服務那我最後的建議是社會救助法第16條之一已經將住宅主管機關的角色立法納入在社會救助體系裡面那我們住宅法為何沒有把"},{"start":10518.263,"end":10537.509,"text":"衛生福利部以及地方設政衛生主管機關的角色納入我們在第33條第34條第35條的各項協助裡面我覺得這一次利用這一次的修法應該要檢討這件事情好謝謝謝謝孫盈姓秘書長下一位我們請徐玉珍委員發言"},{"start":10548.976,"end":10578.062,"text":"主席各位官員還有各位專案學者大家好面對我國房價的持續上漲跟少子化的挑戰所以我們認為政府應該更積極的調整現行的一個住宅的政策而根據統計民國111年到113年間全台的房價平均漲幅超過三成同時112年實質的總薪資也出現了負省場所以反映出一般家庭在購屋和租屋上面的壓力日益的加重"},{"start":10578.622,"end":10583.909,"text":"雖然政府已經設定113年會達成20萬戶的社會住宅121年達到50萬戶包租代管的政策目標但是事實上到113年為止目前實際才完工的社會住宅其實只有3萬多戶"},{"start":10597.006,"end":10614.238,"text":"那在資源的配置上仍需要進一步的強化對經濟跟社會弱勢族群的支持那當然為了更具體的實踐居住正義我已經提出住宅法第四條的修正案就是將現行規定中涉宅分配給弱勢者的比例由"},{"start":10615.058,"end":10638.633,"text":"現行的40%調升到至少50%讓資源的配置更貼近我們的這個政策的初衷此外也配合行政院既有的300億元的專案擴大租金補貼專案計畫的精神修正條文將補貼對象由育有未成年子女兩人以上放寬為育有未成年子女以因應少子化"},{"start":10639.393,"end":10656.321,"text":"讓更多有育兒需求的家庭能夠納入政策的照顧以緩解育兒與租屋的雙重壓力而在供給面上根據內政部111年的住宅需求動向的調查在全國範圍內申請租屋補貼的受訪者中有80.1%表示願意參與社會住宅"},{"start":10661.323,"end":10682.405,"text":"包租代管的計畫然而實際案件台北市卻是六都最低顯示現行制度未能有效的促進屋主的參與主因是因為租金所得免稅額僅限於月租金新台幣一萬五千元以下與實際北市的實際租金的水平落差甚大"},{"start":10682.845,"end":10699.188,"text":"所以導致屋主的參與的意願不足建議可以修正第15條與第20條的修正案將免稅額調升到兩萬五千元來提升誘因也增加供給也強化包租代管政策的實效另外"},{"start":10699.788,"end":10724.967,"text":"因應公有土地有限財政壓力的逐年升高我將在住宅法第23條也提出修正方案配合合建分屋的方式與民間合作讓政府得以在無需大量前期投資的情況之下加速取得社會住宅單元同時也考量區段徵收與市地重劃所得土地屬公共利益所得"},{"start":10725.547,"end":10748.514,"text":"未来在法治上纳入社宅新建的适用范围将有助于提高土地公共的使用效率也避免资源流向纯商业的用途以确保社会住宅社会政策的推动更具有弹性跟永续性整体而言我提出的住宅法修法重点不仅在于增加社会住宅的总量"},{"start":10749.074,"end":10768.826,"text":"更在於調整制度的設計讓資源的分配更加公平供給的制度更加有效執行的方式更加靈活唯有在持續優化制度的設計社會住宅才能真正發揮它的政策跟功能以回應人民對居住安全與公平的期待謝謝"},{"start":10772.093,"end":10778.639,"text":"謝謝徐宇貞委員的發言下一位我們請台北市主任住宅工會陳柏勳理事長發言有請好 主席在座的專家學者大家好 大家午安"},{"start":10791.992,"end":10818.248,"text":"我是台北市住院工會的理事長也是現任中華民國房東總會的理事長那針對幾個部分我剛剛聽了一些專家提出來的部分那在此先澄清一些事情讓大家稍微了解一下首先大家針對社會主權包租代管房東排擠房客的部分其實各位可能要從另外一個角度去思考"},{"start":10820.03,"end":10824.578,"text":"這些房東們加入社會財幫助代表的計畫呢他的不動產其實都是上千萬買來的"},{"start":10826.133,"end":10853.438,"text":"大家其實要換位思考一下當然現在目前只能說用興建的方式他們不能排擠他的不能限定他的身份以外在私有住宅部分其實各位要思考這個部分那當然他針對房客的部分其實房客弱勢的跟社會的弱勢這個部分其實他們當然就考慮這個部分甚至年長的但是也有很多房客是相當的狀況不好的欠租等等之類這些東西大家有沒有去思考過這個問題"},{"start":10855.075,"end":10880.512,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分是我覺得首先要先講這個租房子最大的原因其實不是他的年紀大或是他的心態的問題我們根據統計過這些租房子的年長的或者是這些比較弱勢的或什麼之類的他的心態其實是有點激動的我說實在的所以這個部分會造成房東會有點害怕"},{"start":10882.473,"end":10902.859,"text":"所以在這個部分,我覺得我們在講這件事情的時候,其實大家怎麼解決呢?其實就是一定要興建,這是無庸置疑的,只有興建才能解決這個問題那介入民間人的部分呢,其實坦白說,我們只能從現在來看,只能幫助什麼?幫助這些青少年"},{"start":10903.559,"end":10913.39,"text":"或是一些勞動者之類的那真的要把弱勢這一塊當作是社會主權的最終目標的話其實這只是一個小環而已那我必須提出一下"},{"start":10915.493,"end":10942.666,"text":"再者第一個是我們在講經濟弱勢要放寬事實上我們已經從10%放寬到40%了我個人的見解是說如果我們一直把放寬的部分放寬到50%甚至更高其實我某個方面來講其實這些部分應該考慮說為什麼一直有這些弱勢放寬而不去解決弱勢的問題"},{"start":10944.489,"end":10963.115,"text":"那我在想如果大家一次的放官難道這個社會的競爭力就提高還是國家競爭力就提高了嗎所以我覺得這個部分也是值得大家那現行的部分百分之四十我覺得是一個非常我覺得是可以滿足的因為這個部分有部分的是"},{"start":10964.762,"end":10993.103,"text":"現在社會社會保護代表的需求現在已提供四成的弱勢以現行租金補貼對社會經濟弱勢的需求其實涵蓋相當的已經相當廣泛了所以我覺得不應該排擠這些如果不是弱勢的這些人其實很多如果我們把他們排擠到他們的這些的要居住社會社會的這些空間我覺得會有排擠效益"},{"start":10994.977,"end":11011.932,"text":"那再來這個租金的分析制度當然這是非常好但是各位一直在提這個租金各位能瞭解什麼是合理租金嗎大家在講租金租金那什麼是合理租金"},{"start":11013.252,"end":11028.314,"text":"其實我大概以我的經驗租金的部分其實除了地點設備等等之類所以說其實如果以租金合理性以他的身份來定合理租金的話"},{"start":11029.335,"end":11051.805,"text":"那我說實在的,大概民間的部分只剩下社會主宰,自己興建而已這是政府來承擔這些部分所以我覺得初見的部分其實是適當的去調整但是有些部分在民間社會團體優分報稅所得低但無法取得福利的身份為邊緣弱勢"},{"start":11053.789,"end":11082.471,"text":"那未用盡較低租金將造成負擔過重的情形考到現行我們有3萬的社會住宅已經提供民眾入住建議可以歸任衛生福利部與政府合作逐步檢討距離別人弱勢的身份樣態將具有負擔能力不足的住宅需求急切之家庭逐步列入討論這樣我們才能兼具租金分析之中的公平性與弱勢照顧的核心價值"},{"start":11083.872,"end":11092.878,"text":"這是我針對這個租金的部分再來這個是學生學生的部分"},{"start":11094.583,"end":11117.484,"text":"現在目前學生的租屋的狀況其實在學校附近其實是他們最便利的地方那很多的這個大專業校其實也沒有錢可以興建這個所謂的校舍那多數的分都在外面租那租房子外面其實很多的這個這個當然也提到有頂樓增建、加蓋等等也礙於說離學校比較近"},{"start":11118.686,"end":11132.723,"text":"我們這個行業其實也曾經探討過我們自己內部的開會探討過當然因為有學校願意有需求其實我們工會這邊也願意我們有會員公司願意來承受這樣的事情"},{"start":11133.504,"end":11153.486,"text":"那比如說我們在鄰近附近來整棟來包租來給這個學習學校都沒問題但是現在為什麼有些業者不會去做的原因是各位清楚嗎我們這個學生的路上都會有寒暑假空的狀況那一個投資者來看這件事情的時候就是在商言商了"},{"start":11154.355,"end":11179.437,"text":"所以說呢如果政府在這個階段如果我們包下來只針對這些學生來出租的話那就要針對這樣的一個的補貼方式我可以讓他出到比較合理的甚至比較低廉的這個價格讓他負擔但是距市場的或者空中部分這個部分政府應該提出一個補貼的方式讓這個事情來持續做下去我相信才會有要做"},{"start":11180.457,"end":11208.584,"text":"這個是我覺得是以我們業者的狀況我們是非常樂意的這個我也跟各位講一下那最後呢我其實有提到最近比較這個既然我們剛剛講興建那興建能量不足怎麼辦呢其實台灣有很多的資金民間有很多資金但是都沒有動用比如說授權業者甚至一些上市公司的這些部分但是愛宇包建商為什麼沒興趣因為這個投報很差嘛"},{"start":11209.184,"end":11233.535,"text":"那我這邊也大概講一下其實大部分大土地部分可以讓中央來興建小部分可以讓民間來興建那民間興建完以後再由中央來政府或地方來包租回去然後由我們來管理這樣的成本可能會比較低一點比政府在管理大型的成本會來得划算那也可以讓這個社宅偏僻開發才能解決真的弱勢要居住的量能謝謝"},{"start":11236.824,"end":11249.129,"text":"好 謝謝陳柏勳理事長我們現在時間接近中午報告委員會 我們中午不休息因為算一下發言大概在中午左右可以結束我們中間就不特別休息了好 下一個我們請力新基金會王耀豪執行長發言 謝謝"},{"start":11253.174,"end":11281.04,"text":"委員還有我們各位關心社宅的夥伴們大家好立新基金會我們主要是在關心受暴的婦女或者是一個弱勢處境的兒少那我們會關心社宅的一個議題當然我們會發現說這些不利處境的這些的不婦女或者是兒少居住住宅的一個服務"},{"start":11282.154,"end":11298.495,"text":"對於他們的穩定還有希望感是有帶來非常大的一個儲育的效果所以在我們多年前我們就開始投入了一個住宅的服務我們也參與了社宅的聯盟"},{"start":11300.287,"end":11313.918,"text":"那針對今天這次公聽會的這個比如說有關於這個比例標準或者是租金分級的一個制度那我們是支持社宅聯盟的主張因為我們本身也有參與這個社宅的聯盟所以在這個過程當中我們有充分的一個討論但是我這邊會額外要去提出來的"},{"start":11322.205,"end":11350.939,"text":"其實也是呼應剛才總盟的孫怡信秘書長去提到的是我們覺得非常重要是這次修法一定要把衛福部納入這個中央主管機關因為過去我們知道是說一直都是以這個內政部那我們以蓋這個社宅的一個硬體可是事實上我們投入服務之後會發現是說除了這個硬體以外其實軟體的這些社會的一個服務也非常的一個重要"},{"start":11351.819,"end":11365.116,"text":"當然我們之前很多時候都是先求有接下來就是要求好了就是說當然現在這個量我們是需要去追可是除了量以外其實它裡面的這個"},{"start":11366.19,"end":11386.707,"text":"品質也是非常的一個重要以例行我們在關心受報婦女我們會看到是說過去如果只有光是只有社會福利服務的話那個短期的一個效果可是相對可能會是一個比較短的那加上這個住宅我們就會看到是對於他們的這個安定跟那種"},{"start":11387.647,"end":11407.741,"text":"奠定他們未來的這個希望感我們覺得有起到非常關鍵性的一個作用那更何況就是剛才也提到是說其實我們社福的一個基本法已經很明確的就是把這個住宅的一個服務提是說要提供給這些不利處境的一個國民"},{"start":11408.228,"end":11434.013,"text":"所以我們要在裡面除了就是說給他這樣子的一個房舍另外這個支持體系心理的一個復健如果做得好其實有一部分的這個福利別比如說我們受暴婦女或者是青年而且其實他們如果奠定好的一個基礎他們其實脫離社會福利依賴的這個可能性是高的"},{"start":11434.853,"end":11441.62,"text":"所以我們的這個輪替率是高的當然不同的一個福利別他們的狀況不一樣可是有部分的這個福利別透過我們一個充分的一個這樣子的一個福利服務的話然後事實上他們之後事實上可以脫離福利的一個依賴投入到我們一般的這樣子的一個"},{"start":11456.796,"end":11477.373,"text":"租屋的一個這個市場那我們就可以釋出輪替給其他更有需要的這些的一個服務的一個對象那如果我們沒有這樣子福利服務的一個這樣子的一個介入的話那可能大家就是入住到一個一個空間那很可能會造成有這個停滯的一個狀況"},{"start":11478.494,"end":11498.989,"text":"就像是說我們今天不管是病人他住醫院他也不會是住到醫院他就好了其實關鍵就是醫療人員學校也不是蓋好了學生就在裡面他就可以就一定也都是這些我們的教育師資所以一樣這個住宅也都不是房舍蓋好了就了事所以我們會認為是"},{"start":11501.671,"end":11525.911,"text":"衛福部一定要 應該要入法是中央的這個主管機關同時把福利服務明文化因為剛才提到說你如果沒有明文化因為像立新我們是一個全國性的團體我們就會發現說不同縣市的做法真的差異很大有的真的是那個社福單位是完全不介入的那我們在這種很不同模式對我們來講"},{"start":11527.133,"end":11534.047,"text":"也會覺得非常的無所適從所以如果我們從中央的這樣子的一個框架就把這個"},{"start":11535.831,"end":11557.346,"text":"硬體的這個內政部軟體的這個衛福部這個框架框好了那事實上那個各縣市他們的一個這樣的一個服務的一個模式就會是一個比較明確那我們也不會照常各縣市的我們的這個縣市的一個這個民眾會因為這個縣市的一個不同的一個這個"},{"start":11559.164,"end":11574.482,"text":"策略然後他們得到的一個這個社宅的一個服務就會有很大的一個差異我想所以我們會建議在我們的除了這個主管機關要把衛福部明確的一個納入那另外在第34條這個"},{"start":11578.052,"end":11601.009,"text":"就是說除了提供這個設施設備及必要的社會福利服務因為你看今天如果是住住中心當然對於設施設備可能相對他們知道比較明確可是因為社會福利服務不是他們的擅長所以這裡的法裡面講是說必要的社會福利服務他們可能就不懂必要的社會福利服務是什麼可是如果是衛福部衛福部就會很"},{"start":11601.516,"end":11623.852,"text":"很清楚會去調查去提供必要的這個所謂的社會福利服務所以我們認為在第34條這個社會福利服務就要再更明確化所以社會福利服務明文化還有這個衛福部入法那這是我們期待在這次的修法裡面一定要有的一個內容謝謝好謝謝王元豪執行長下一位我們請高金素美委員發言"},{"start":11638.001,"end":11654.714,"text":"大家辛苦了今天我們談的是這個住宅法而且有非常多的專業的朋友以及我們現場的朋友提供非常多寶貴的意見而我就針對原住民族在都會地區的居住困境也跟大家分享一下我的看法"},{"start":11655.955,"end":11669.164,"text":"隨著都市的腳步越加的加快有超過65%的原住民族的人口已經生活在都市裡面了但是對許多的族人來講呢都市並不代表的是安穩"},{"start":11670.339,"end":11690.331,"text":"而我們的這些族人面對的是高房價還有文化隔閡加上租屋市場對原住民族相對的歧視這導致我們很多的族人租不到也住不起而園民會的資料也證實了這個現象原住民的自由住宅率只有76.66%遠低於全國的平均的90.22%"},{"start":11697.055,"end":11722.17,"text":"換一句話說原住民的家庭要更仰賴租屋市場而問題是我們族人的年收入也只有全國平均的63%貧窮率還有低收入戶的比例也都非常的高在這樣的情況之下我們族人對合理或者是可負擔的租金的需求是非常迫切的"},{"start":11723.01,"end":11743.684,"text":"而我認為要解決原住民族的住宅問題我們必須要從三個角度來看第一個原住民族的都市人口比例持續的上升我們從104年到現在居住在都會區的族人已經從45%增加超過51%了如果再加上沒有涉及者"},{"start":11744.565,"end":11765.481,"text":"我們可以看到預估實際達到65%以上我們就以今天的昭緯 這個牛昭緯的桃園為例中壢八德是原住民族人口最集中的地方但是呢 中壢八德到現在連一戶原住民的社宅都沒有"},{"start":11766.584,"end":11783.455,"text":"我們可以發現社宅的政策明顯沒有按照實際人口分佈來規劃尤其是原住民族的人口第二個原住民族的專屬社宅的數量遠遠不足全台灣我們來看一下只有600戶"},{"start":11786.077,"end":11799.887,"text":"這600戶包括什麼?新北的224戶桃園的54戶台中287戶對都會龐大的原住民族的人口來說真是杯水車薪"},{"start":11800.828,"end":11820.739,"text":"更糟糕的是我們的分布失衡有一些需求比較高的族人居住的地方根本就沒有規劃然後第三個原住民的人口也快速的成長了我們從112年原住民身份法修法之後我們可以看到一年內的人口增加了2.2萬"},{"start":11824.008,"end":11843.445,"text":"年增長率達到3.84%這創造了歷史的新高如果我們的政策依照以前舊有的資料來規劃的話我認為這問題還會越來越嚴重根本也沒有辦法回應到我們族人真正的需求"},{"start":11844.125,"end":11848.192,"text":"而今天在公聽會上面 我們來對照一下原民會他們的書面意見在這裡我有幾點要指出 原民會有人在場嗎"},{"start":11856.462,"end":11877.231,"text":"好 你好好聽一下第一個 原民會提出的統計數字 連你們自己都不清楚優先戶 一般戶 到底怎麼區分 這些數據怎麼來的所以沒有了這些數據 我們讓人根本沒有辦法判斷原住民的人口實際入住這些社宅的比例"},{"start":11878.291,"end":11889.776,"text":"第二個不管是中央還是地方如果沒有訂定原住民的保障比例就應該要明確的訂出讓族人知道我們在都會區還有什麼樣的保障而已經訂出比例的我們也應該依照各地的情況"},{"start":11896.719,"end":11901.923,"text":"進一步的來細分來調查第三個 原民會目前還是依照108年的報告來推估我們社宅的需求但是剛剛說過112年原住民的身份法修法之後族群認定已經變了需求也早已經不同了如果還是用舊有的資料顯然是不準確的第四個"},{"start":11918.777,"end":11932.726,"text":"原民會提供的專屬住宅不到600戶是根本不夠的第五個最重要的根本問題是什麼經費不足原民會自己也坦言綜合發展基金我們的現金只剩下4.3億"},{"start":11934.827,"end":11961.388,"text":"而行政院又不願意來撥補這個綜合發展基金缺額的部分這是無法滿足族人社宅期待的關鍵原因所以在我提出的住宅法的修正案我希望我們住在這個丁式的族人能夠住得起能夠住得好所以我主張導入投資的模式然後來靈活運用原住民基金投入社宅的興建"},{"start":11962.569,"end":11980.683,"text":"然後社宅不必分元、漢很多族人反而希望有不同的族群可以住在一起啊一起生活啊尤其現在一直在推動的全民元教我們可以在這些社宅裡面設立原住民的教保中心、托嬰中心來打造友善的公共空間所以"},{"start":11982.925,"end":12006.131,"text":"我們認為社宅市應該根據人口的實際分布來規劃做到按需分配 按地設計讓我們的資源能夠真正發揮效益所以我認為我們的政府必須應該回應也必須看到 尤其人民會這樣子才能夠讓我們的都會區的族人能夠住得起 也住得好我覺得我們從這個方向一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":12007.321,"end":12017.92,"text":"好 謝謝高金素梅委員在我們結束之後各單位都要做出一些回應請大家做好準備下一位我們請台灣青年民主協會楊志穎理事長發言"},{"start":12032.458,"end":12052.366,"text":"各位委員、專家、學者、NGO以及與會我伴們大家好我是台灣青年民主協會理事長楊姿麟青民協主要是推動青年在公共政策上的發聲與參與今天主要是想要談的是學生的租屋困境特別是為什麼學生應該被納入社會住宅政策的討論範疇首先學生他不是經濟弱勢但確實處於結構性的困境"},{"start":12057.748,"end":12075.56,"text":"一般來說政府在規劃社會住宅時會優先考慮低收入或身心障礙者等經濟或社會弱勢族群但學生的情況比較特殊我們可能不是法律定義上的弱勢但是確實是理想背景沒有收入但需要中長期租屋的一群人"},{"start":12076.781,"end":12100.527,"text":"更重要的是其實學生並不是自願選擇去租屋的而是被迫租屋因為學校的宿舍數量非常少以我自己為例到大二的時候學校的宿舍基本上是不一定能抽選得到的只能被迫加入這個租屋市場而租屋市場又缺乏合理的保障像學生面臨諸多問題特別是在台北、台中、高雄這些高房價、高租金的城市"},{"start":12101.187,"end":12122.045,"text":"學生的租屋負擔相當沉重很多人只能靠家庭的資源或是去打工才能支付房租但這些問題過去的住宅法並沒有處理到學生租屋問題一直存在卻從來沒有放進社宅政策的討論裡政府推社會住宅是希望能夠解決居住正義的問題那麼為什麼不能讓學生也有機會住進去呢"},{"start":12124.887,"end":12150.476,"text":"根据2023年监察院的报告全台91处的社会住宅中有62处在大专院校的附近那教育部至今未能与内政部协作提出学生租屋的对策监察院认为应该要检讨与改进如果能预留一定比例的社宅数量可以给学生或设立学生专区提供稳定合理的租屋选择许多问题就能一样而解"},{"start":12150.996,"end":12171.208,"text":"此外社宅的硬體設計還有租約的制度也應該更符合學生的需求像是小坪數的單人套房讓學生負擔得起共享住宅模式透過獨立臥室共用廚房的交易廳設計來降低租金也能讓學生彼此交流互相幫助而短期或學期制的租約讓學生有彈性的選擇"},{"start":12173.089,"end":12195.967,"text":"因为目前租屋市场都是以一年长约为主对于短期交换生实习生毕业生其实来说是非常不方便的社宅可能可以提供就是学习制的租约四到六个月或是暑期短租模式来建立弹性解约机制避免学生因为突发状况而需要支付高额的违约金这个规划不仅符合学生需求也能让社宅的使用效益最大化"},{"start":12196.627,"end":12216.598,"text":"另外租屋市场不透明学生是最大的受害者现在的租屋市场有存在了许多社会乱象学生经常遇到像是租屋补助申请困难啊实际上看得到吃不到租屋条件不合理动不动就涨租屋被扣押金房屋安全没有保障而身为一个女性我也想来聊聊女性的租屋困境"},{"start":12217.546,"end":12243.793,"text":"首先是女性租屋安全问题像是遇到房东或仲介的性骚扰治安不佳的环境和租室友的安全疑虑等目前的租屋市场对女性保障的机制几乎不存在房东甚至可能拒租女性或提出不合理的限制像是宵禁还有访客管制此外租屋市场也仍然存在着很多对女性租客的刻板印象像是女性租客就曾经遇过说"},{"start":12245.134,"end":12260.015,"text":"女生比較愛乾淨那房租可以比較低一點點或是女生會帶男友回家所以不要租這類的歧視性言論可以見得就是租屋市場中的性別偏見仍然是存在的而社宅應該提供一個更平衡"},{"start":12260.896,"end":12282.311,"text":"更透明的租賃環境來避免這類的問題最後女性的租屋成本可能相較於男性來的高許多租客特別是女性因為安全的考量會選擇租金較高的房型這使得居住選擇更加受制那因此社宅若能提供專門的安全保障設計像是智慧門徑這類的就能有效的減輕女性租屋的分擔"},{"start":12284.352,"end":12307.407,"text":"那上述的狀況無論是學生女性在租屋市場中都遇到各式的困境那在當中學生沒有穩定的收入又缺乏租屋資訊最終只能被動的接受各種不合理的條件如果能將學生納入社宅的適用範對象那並落實租屋市場的透明化學生的租屋困境將可以得到大幅度的改善"},{"start":12308.268,"end":12333.94,"text":"那目前的住宅法在第35條中有提到政府機關可以透過包租代管提供社宅給特定族群但會明確納入學生如果能進一步的修化法規的規定讓各級學校可以透過社會住宅轉租給學生將能有效解決學生的租屋問題那我們的訴求是這次的修法千萬不要再忽略學生的我們知道目前泛民委員還有一些委員有在想法"},{"start":12334.64,"end":12364.009,"text":"有想在法规层面上解决学生的租屋问题这是一个好的开始但我们不希望这只留在讨论的层面而是在这次住宅法的修法中真正的把学生纳进来对于本次工资会在学生租屋权益上我们呼吁第一个大家学生纳入社会住宅的适用对象第二会希望社会住宅规划上能有性别友善白皮书在设施的新建上与规范的制定上应考虑不同性别的需求最后希望能推"},{"start":12364.409,"end":12384.974,"text":"推動租屋市場的透明化保障學生的權益這次住宅法的修法是解決學生租屋困境的關鍵時期希望立法院不要再忽視學生忽視這個問題我們期待政府真正落實居住正義讓學生租屋不再是生存挑戰而是一個基本權利謝謝大家我是台灣青年民主協會理事長楊姿穎好謝謝楊理事長我們繼續請牛許廷召位謝謝"},{"start":12396.475,"end":12420.376,"text":"謝謝主席 各位學者專家 各位政府官員 各位媒體朋友 大家早安在這邊先做幾點說明第一個 住宅法是中國國民黨本黨黨團第三會期的兩大優先法案之一另外一個法案是國家的法案那我也跟大家報告 第二個是因為我們很多的委員其實針對住宅法提出了非常非常多不同的修法版本那版本眾多 方向不同"},{"start":12421.024,"end":12442.961,"text":"光是社會住宅的弱勢比例該如何設計該如何來納入或者是放寬政策戶的標準比如說要不要多一點青年啊育兒的考量啊這個老人家的照顧啊等等那可可能跟本來的弱勢設計又會互相衝突所以在利益良善的前提下但是畢竟政策的方向不一樣就有很多不同的出發點"},{"start":12443.681,"end":12462.615,"text":"甚至有些時候版本之間會有彼此的衝突因此在修法前這個前期的整合其實是非常非常重要的第三住宅政策知識體大所以我們都希望能夠廣增民意特別是今天在座各位都是長期倡議居住正義住宅政策的相關團體"},{"start":12464.096,"end":12479.838,"text":"立場會有不同但是都各有專業所以我們將召開系列公聽會這今天只是第一場我再次在這邊感謝各位今天專家學者的與會跟寶貴的意見今天大家留下來的資料其實非常的重要因為會成為我們未來修法的重要參考"},{"start":12480.999,"end":12497.384,"text":"我們今天回到今天的主題其實大家花最多心力來談論的到底還是我們到底要讓哪一些人可以優先的來入住社會住宅這個我想也是大部分國人都關心的這個題目那現行的台灣的狀況當然是用比例的概念來區分也就是說有所謂的政策優先戶跟所謂的一般戶"},{"start":12498.004,"end":12522.759,"text":"那麼政策優先戶裡面有所謂的評點機制但一般戶原則上採取抽籤我今天想要丟出的方向分享是參照這個社會住宅的政策典範的國家荷蘭也就是他們使用的是積分制用積分的先後來做輪候然後來看看這個台灣未來能不能夠思考跟參酌但這個理想必須要有統一的平台我先跟大家報告一下荷蘭的這個執行的方式"},{"start":12523.439,"end":12546.853,"text":"荷蘭的從2023年1月26號開始他們就實行新積分制這個制度裡面所有有需要住社會住宅的申請者都要這個有積分來獲取優先順序這個積分分成四種第一個等待積分不管你是任何人不管你的身分別你只要有在等待的名單內你每個月加一分因為這個所有人都有共同的需求"},{"start":12547.253,"end":12565.832,"text":"那當然你如果入住了社宅你終於媒合成功的時候當然就沒有所謂的等待積分第二個有所謂的搜尋積分就是你要鼓勵他你不能只是我只為了某一間社會住宅在等待嘛而放棄去尋找別人的可能性為了更加的公平然後大家可以做適合的妥協他有所謂的搜尋積分"},{"start":12566.753,"end":12587.14,"text":"也就是每一個需求者他要去找三到四個物件你要跟他談一下去看看房子什麼的你才會得到這個分數如果你都沒有你或者是你只回應固定的在固定的地方排隊那你的積分會保持不變你如果通通沒反應你連你本來想要的你都不去關注了你還會扣一分那用這樣子的方式就是確保大家都在積極的搜尋"},{"start":12588.16,"end":12600.556,"text":"去擴大政策媒合的效果第三還有專屬的叫新手積分這對青年相對友善特別在阿姆斯特丹周邊地區因為房價高漲青年人才相對流失他為了要專門針對這個問題去解決所以要設計新手積分"},{"start":12603.94,"end":12627.684,"text":"也有首都附近的青年有特殊身份的可以享有這個多十分的機會讓他在等候的名單上可以提前最後一個我想也是大家最關注的叫特殊狀況積分也就是基於大家不同的要做到所謂的立足點的平等比如說我們的身心障礙的人士比如說剛剛很多我們學術專家提到這個老人家有常住需求的這樣一個人士有單親家庭的這樣一個狀況經濟弱勢的這樣狀況他針對不同的族群去做"},{"start":12632.385,"end":12654.232,"text":"細算然後給予特殊身份積分在這樣的一個前提下大家所有人適用同一套機制但是不同的身份不同的需求它可以有不同的加分機制然後大家通通在排隊的軌道上來討論社會住宅的這個入住的這個先後順序我想是一個比較公平而且也具有一定調控性的這樣一個方法我想可以給我們的政府機關做一個參考"},{"start":12655.652,"end":12672.667,"text":"但是這個理想一聽大家都覺得這實在太理想了離我們現在的狀況非常遙遠這我完全理解我們至少要往前走一步今天我也聽很多學者專家去談到我們好歹要有一個整合的平台吧我們好歹要有更多的研究案吧要有更精準的調查吧"},{"start":12673.047,"end":12696.929,"text":"要把這群有需求人先聚合在一起我想這是我們中華民國政府可以立刻做到的事情能不能用積分制輪候制馬上取代現行的比例制他可能需要時間磨合但是把這群人找出來然後針對各式各樣需求跟身份做初步的彙整這是我們希望立刻對內政部提出的要求我想在這樣充分的討論之下大家再來做法案的修正"},{"start":12697.609,"end":12709.914,"text":"跟政策的溝通我想我們這個會期應該在居住正義的題目上面我們應該可以有所貢獻在住宅政策上面我們也希望不分朝野黨派可以再往前走一小步謝謝大家"},{"start":12727.505,"end":12749.213,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位貴賓我想今天的題目非常的重要那為參與台灣民眾黨尤其在台北市我們是社會住宅先行的地方政府那在居住正義的堅持上面台灣民眾黨一向堅持三項原則第一個社會住宅要大力的蓋不管有任何的困難蓋設宅不能因為"},{"start":12750.936,"end":12768.924,"text":"民眾的抗爭或者是政府裁員的問題而停擺所以第一個大力改所以不是討論要不要改而是要討論怎麼樣繼續快速的改或者是能夠提供更多更多的房源第二個部分是大力改大力改 改什麼 改稅值"},{"start":12770.305,"end":12785.366,"text":"從台北市我們提出相關的囤房稅到中央房屋稅2.0接下去讓更多把公益出租人讓他能夠得到更多的優惠讓他願意把他的房源提出來讓更多的人能夠透過包租代管"},{"start":12786.027,"end":12809.148,"text":"租金補貼得到他們應該可負擔的住宅第三個部分是大力補目前為止中央花了很多錢在做租金補貼還有相關的包租代管但是這些政策的確是讓很多人家會但是可能對於租屋市場的透明化還是沒有辦法完全的揭開來目前為止租屋黑市的問題"},{"start":12810.109,"end":12824.44,"text":"為什麼還是有很多的房東不願意讓租客去申請租金補貼甚至不讓他們設戶口最嚴重的是不讓他們做所得稅的扣繳那我們在"},{"start":12825.561,"end":12851.772,"text":"上個星期 上個月我們跟AWS已經要求財政部對於今年的今年度五月申報稅額可以列舉扣除了18萬的部分要大力的宣傳但是有五成的人不敢報有兩成人不知道所以接下去要做的是政府的政策如何讓更多的人知道我們在居住正義上面的努力但在居住正義裡面非常重要的是社宅的評估需求"},{"start":12852.512,"end":12871.802,"text":"到現在為止目前為止都是政府用數字喊的方式包括8年10萬戶到8年25萬戶但是真正的需求有多少我們到底有多少科學化跟務實的計算目前為止這些數字到底是怎麼計算來的還是只是政府"},{"start":12872.282,"end":12888.53,"text":"含口號推估出來的中央始終不願意正式設裁需求的需求量的讀算也就是說沒有完整具體的科學的調查數字所以中央跟需求的比較有關的調查只有112年的住宅需求調動向調查"},{"start":12890.271,"end":12911.322,"text":"訪問的對象只有接受租金補貼的申請者也就是說只問這些人你有沒有申請住在的意願但一般的人並沒有機會被詢問到所以他的調查可能就是一個完全在母體調查上面完全不準確的東西反而忽略了更多的人是不知道甚至是有需求可是沒有機會來做申請那"},{"start":12914.093,"end":12937.117,"text":"民間團體一直在提供要求希望能夠建立所謂的登記平台在每個縣市接受登記知道你有多少的需求再決定你要蓋多少的社宅這個制度我不明白為什麼內政部一直不願意處理如果有人願意登記他就是有真正的需求所以社宅輪候制會是將來可能比較具體的解方"},{"start":12937.617,"end":12955.353,"text":"妳在一個非常非常大量需求如果如同雙北市的地方它的需求會非常的大但是妳如果把它到比較鄉間的或其他中南部的縣市它可能需求沒那麼大而不是我們全國蓋到25萬戶那隨便蓋蓋在哪裡不重要這才是我們現在的問題所以"},{"start":12957.214,"end":12973.269,"text":"具體的需求的了解跟具體需求的建設才是真正將來解決居住正義最好的方法那最後一個是社會住宅的租金分級的制度目前為止好像中央終於聽進去我們的意見"},{"start":12973.929,"end":12988.817,"text":"那在台北市在桃園我們早就以所得來做租金補貼的相關的方式了所以接下去我們希望內政部從善如流把真正民眾需要的方式讓民眾能夠得到他更多更合理的補貼"},{"start":12990.267,"end":13016.513,"text":"那過去地方政府因為財源不足所以不敢自己蓋社宅台北市費盡全力蓋了大概兩萬戶的社宅那我們希望財化法修正通過之後將近有三千多億下放到地方地方政府勢必要承擔更多蓋社宅的相關的責任所以包括內政部也好包括財政部也好在財化法通過之後我們希望在社宅的政策上面應該有更大的"},{"start":13017.833,"end":13042.559,"text":"而且要一起來努力那最重要的最後一點是我們希望多元取得房屋也是目前提供設在最重要的方法那今天聽到非常多的建議尤其是將來的不管是實地存化區段徵收還有今天聽到聯合開發在我們台北市我們是只租不賣但是現在可能有新的狀況可能要開始把市府"},{"start":13043.439,"end":13063.613,"text":"掌握了一千多戶的零開住宅開始賣我希望內政部要有自己的態度因為中華民國政府不應該成為帶頭炒房的元兇最後我們希望將來的不管是TOD以及可能有更多的共同開發的像EOD的情況都應該把社宅放在政府集體開發的範圍之內所以我們希望內政部針對"},{"start":13066.775,"end":13075.18,"text":"地方政府或者是中央政府有關住宅的部分我們希望有個統一的規範希望不要由政府來做炒房的元兇以上"},{"start":13077.281,"end":13098.373,"text":"好 謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言包括委員會我們還有兩位委員但因為大家在外委員會質詢所以我們待會採用二輪發言的方式來處理現在我們先請今天列席的與會機關代表這個請內政部代表好不好簡單的回應一下各區的專家跟委員的意見請檢要說明稍後我們進行二輪發言 謝謝"},{"start":13104.745,"end":13132.975,"text":"張偉及各位委員還有各位學者專家以及列席的政府各部會同仁大家好今天非常榮幸也非常感謝我們聆聽了許多委員跟學者專家的專業的意見以及對於住宅的相當的關切那我們這邊也簡單的做一個說明首先是有關於租金分級制度我們已經跟各界討論完成了相關的一個租金分級制度的規範那麼我們會在近期內做完整的公佈那也特別說明就是剛剛"},{"start":13133.715,"end":13152.036,"text":"各位的高見包括將身份別跟所得別通通來做一個整合特別是以所得作為一個基礎的分類這部分我們都會納入整個完整的考量裡面那提供大家做一個合理的照顧我想社宅的重點就是要讓大家有合理的租金來作為一個合理的居住的模式"},{"start":13152.637,"end":13179.572,"text":"那對於弱勢者的照顧的部分我們會積極跟衛福部做一個嫁接事實上我們已經跟衛福部呂健德次長已經做了多次的討論我們希望以軟硬合作的方式然後結合我們的社會福利團體共同來支持我們的社會弱勢者在整個社宅政策裡面跟社宅居住空間裡面的一些照護那包括剛才所提到的許多我們那個行動不便的團體所提到的通用設計的部分"},{"start":13180.712,"end":13200.595,"text":"事實上在我們中央所興建的社宅裡面我們就已經納入這樣的規範那我們也會將這樣的規範進一步推廣到整體的社宅的政策那社會住宅不是只是提供一個居住的空間社會住宅需要提供更多的是相對應的服務那這部分我們已經跟衛福部有做積極的嫁接會在未來做進一步的聯合"},{"start":13201.596,"end":13218.007,"text":"那有關於學生住宿的部分那我們一定也會跟教育部合作我個人來自於中興大學我也看到了許多的學生其實在居住上面是的確受到許多的挑戰那我們是會希望透過以包租代管的方式來支持學生居住的權益"},{"start":13218.667,"end":13243.757,"text":"我們希望透過這樣的方式讓同學們的居住環境除了學校的宿舍之外那麼他們也可以有一個穩定的居住的環境同時呢我們也在這邊明確的說明我們事實上已經將我們的學生及青年代表納入我們的住宅評議委員會裡面那在未來我們會更進一步的邀請更多的學生與青年代表以及我們在座的許多的關心住宅的權益的團體我們共同來關切討論國家的不只是社宅問題還有住宅問題"},{"start":13245.658,"end":13259.025,"text":"那當然包括租金市場的透明化事實上我們地政司跟我們的國土署長期以來就持續的在公布我們相關的租金統計結果我們也會持續將這個結果擴大化同時我們在整個租金的"},{"start":13264.468,"end":13291.489,"text":"申請的過程裡面租補申請過程裡面我們也會將整個房型的樣態化我們都納入我們的問卷裡面所以各位可以看到我們在今年1月所公布的整個的租金的統計結果裡面事實上我們就一定有一定的房型的說明跟資訊的出現那最後有關於整體的住宅的調查事實上的確就如同許多老師跟學者專家所指教的我們事實上應該要更多更多元更擴大的一個調查"},{"start":13292.93,"end":13318.978,"text":"所以我們會與本部的統計處以及我們會跟主計總處這邊做一些討論怎麼樣擴大相關的資訊的調查跟整體的範圍的廣泛的一個研究讓更多的人能夠理解跟看到我們的社宅政策的需求到底是哪些那至於整個相關的平台的建設就如同委員 趙委剛剛所建議的我們會積極去研擬那有一些議題我再請我們的那個署長來做一些回應"},{"start":13320.311,"end":13339.949,"text":"吳署長有請感謝各位與會的這個專家學者還有各界的代表的一些建言那我以下大概針對幾點來做一個說明第一個就是說現在中央蓋的社宅基本上來講是以通用設計為一個基礎的概念但是都有特別在加強這個無障礙"},{"start":13341.25,"end":13359.984,"text":"的一個設計的部分這也是我們中央在新建設宅的時候有城門各界的指教所以我們一直朝向這個方向來努力但是剛剛也提到很重要就是說不是只有室內的部分更重要是未來在戶外的連接讓更多這個身心障礙人士能夠這個能夠在這個無障礙的環境裡面"},{"start":13363.426,"end":13382.504,"text":"自由的進出我想這一點也是我們社宅未來還要努力的目標也感謝大家的提醒這個我們會在社宅的設計裡面再去做這一方面的加強第二個對於有關未來一些整開區還有這個大眾捷運系統的TOD的這樣的一個做法其實內政部在從前年年底開始就"},{"start":13384.526,"end":13409.78,"text":"一系列做這樣的主張那目前在跟六都跟各都的這個協議裡面大致上都獲知一個共識就是說目前在都市計畫在審查中的這些整開案呢各都都同意照這個方式來列舉但是呢現在我們要努力的就是目前已經完成都市計畫或完成區段徵收但是處於配地或是還有剩餘土地的部分這個其實我們都是"},{"start":13410.96,"end":13430.698,"text":"在跟各縣市政府呢足以努力在協調但現在其實比較大的困境就是大家對於這個土地的價值其實差異是比較大的因為我們也如同各位所主張的其實各縣市政府不應該從增加財源的這個概念去談而是應該以這個"},{"start":13433.179,"end":13447.245,"text":"開發成本平衡的概念來談這個土地價值所以在這中間其實在土地的這個取得的這個溝通上呢其實還存在了一些落差那這我們還是會積極去努力不過未來如果受限於財化法的"},{"start":13449.346,"end":13475.567,"text":"這個重新的財源分配的話那我們可能要重新調整這個政策也就是未來就會要求地方政府整開區的部分優先興建設宅會列入他們的未來的一個土地開發的這樣的一個優先的一個目標讓這些新開發區不至於淪為炒房炒地的這樣的一個出發點這個內政部一定會用這樣的方式來做這一個要求那也包含了未來在TOD的部分"},{"start":13476.488,"end":13502.72,"text":"因為跟交通部已經有溝通有共識未來在大捷運法的這一個部分也會優先訂定在增額容積跟TOD的部分容積獎勵的部分要優先來適用社會住宅的這個比例那這個部分我們也已經跟交通部有一個共識那所以這就是我們在目前來講會特別來努力的部分那未來在結合民間"},{"start":13504.441,"end":13519.813,"text":"來獎勵民間興辦社宅的部分我們目前也已經研擬一系列的方案我想會透過跟民間的合作鼓勵相關的資金的投入維持一個叫長期類似包租的概念的一個社宅"},{"start":13520.433,"end":13545.32,"text":"那當然這個會有賴於各企業界的全新的投入因為它畢竟不像一般的房地產市場動輒百分之三十、百分之五十以上的獲利它是一個長期慢慢的一個獲利那這個也有賴於後續的一個觀念的推廣那我們在近期如果順利開始推的時候也希望各企業界能夠來支持這樣對於企業的社會形象也好或者是對於"},{"start":13546.8,"end":13574.513,"text":"長期的這個土地的儲分來講這些都是一個比較穩定的一個收入這個我們還是會持續來努力以上補充 謝謝好 謝謝我們內政部地政司要補充嗎 不好意思 請學者大家好那有關於大家關心的一個透過市地重劃區段徵收來提供社宅用地的部分現在在行政 我們今天有方案報給行政院那有關於後續的一個興建的一個模式的部分"},{"start":13575.493,"end":13599.647,"text":"很多專家學者有提供寶貴的意見那這個部分我們也會跟地方政府包含我們的國土署來做一個討論那第二個部分有關於大家關心到學生租屋的部分其實我們現在也跟催媽媽基金會還有相關公會已經有深入到校園裡面去跟學生做一些的一個租屋宣導然後包含到一些法律的一個權益的保障其實我們現在也一直積極在做後續的部分我們也會"},{"start":13599.667,"end":13621.116,"text":"也會多請聽一下學生族群包含我們年輕的初步族的意見來做一些精進以上報告好 謝謝內政部國土署跟地政司的說明我們現在進行二輪發言的部分請問我們在場的學者專家有人想要進行二輪發言嗎可以直接舉手好 我們請彭陽愷秘書長我們一樣到發言台 謝謝"},{"start":13627.622,"end":13654.118,"text":"我第二次發言我只簡單回應一個部分剛剛非常謝謝內政部的回應不過我還是在強調所謂的調查這件事情我會覺得說我們花很多方式去做調查推估我們提的是一個更簡單的建議就是需要的人就來跟我登記我根本不要調查就是要的人就舉手大家登記這樣我們就不是掌握真實我們現在還是用說各種不管說用"},{"start":13655.479,"end":13674.549,"text":"住宅動向需求調查跟什麼主計處等等嘛我這還是推估那我們今天希望在這題的事情上真的就是直接讓所有需要社會住宅的人我政府就建立一個平台嘛你就來登記然後登記你要把你各種需要的需求講很清楚你比較偏好哪些區位"},{"start":13675.569,"end":13700.186,"text":"你比較需要是哪一種房型或者是你有沒有特殊需求你家裡有沒有老人或無障礙的需求等等的我們就把這個大數據就把它整合下來當然提出需要跟我們政府能不能達成這個量是有差距沒關係可是至少我覺得是作為我們所有住宅政策評估推估的要求例如說我們就剛剛很多人提了我們現在其實我坦白講我們現在的確有點是"},{"start":13702.475,"end":13729.264,"text":"哪裡有地我們就蓋哪裡那事實上跟到底是哪裡需求比較多我們需要社會住宅我們一直沒有做一個好的整合所以我們還是說非常肯定支持內政部國家租屋中心乃至地方政府推動社會住宅的努力可是我們建議說這樣的一個政策花了國家這麼多政策資源的部分上我們為什麼不建立在一個非常明確的科學的數據那我再次強調"},{"start":13730.984,"end":13759.231,"text":"相較於所有什麼推估研究你就直接讓有需要的人來跟我們政府登記然後我們要求你填具很多詳細的資料而且這時候我們就幫你做資格檢核吧所以這個名單就確保是一個有效的真實需求的名單我覺得這樣不是一個比較相對於簡單而且合理的做法謝謝好 謝謝彭陽楷秘書長還有沒有哪位專家學者要二輪發言呢好 請廖廷輝研究員"},{"start":13769.066,"end":13795.885,"text":"感謝內政部剛剛對於學生租學生跟我們目前住宅政策結合的這個部分釋出了善意不過這邊還是要再強調就是說內政部這邊是有包租代管跟租金跟社會住宅的資源但是核心的部分還是要看教育部到底有沒有這一個主動性去跟內政部談這些資源就內政部願意給那教育部願不願意來做這件事那因為在112年監察院的那次的"},{"start":13796.946,"end":13816.923,"text":"調查報告裡面其實就已經提到了應該教育部要跟內政部去整合這個資源後來教育部也沒有做那去年五月的時候開公聽會范雲委員在會議結論裡面也提這件事情教育部現在好像也還是沒有做所以內政部現在這邊是一個開放的態度那請問教育部到底什麼時候要跟這件事情要結合"},{"start":13817.423,"end":13836.474,"text":"那今天好像也有教育部的代表希望等一下可以聽到教育部的代表在這個部分也可以提出一個比較具體的期程跟規劃對 那第二個部分是額外的一個問題是我們目前社會主宰照顧的一個弱勢對象裡面其實現在台灣有很多就是新住民他在離婚之後他可能自己帶小孩"},{"start":13836.934,"end":13864.171,"text":"但因為他並不是中華民國的國民所以他目前是沒有辦法收到社會住宅的照顧的即便他照顧的小孩有中華民國國籍對 那這件事情其實在我們整個住宅補貼系統裡面像是租金補貼的規範那租金補貼的規範它其實裡面有一條是由外國人 無國籍人 大陸地區人民或香港 澳門居民行使負擔權利或義務或監護所以在租金補貼的部分裡面這個部分是可以處理的"},{"start":13865.031,"end":13872.217,"text":"但是社會住宅目前並沒有那也這部分也希望內政部也可以去思考一下可以怎麼樣去填補上這個漏洞謝謝好謝謝我們廖廷輝研究員還有沒有學者專家有二人意見呢好請我們這個是李教授嘛對不對"},{"start":13888.22,"end":13904.291,"text":"我提一個意見就是我們現在這個焦點都聚集在中央內政部了那其實住宅業務跟社會福利依照地制法其實主管機關是地方政府"},{"start":13906.448,"end":13927.524,"text":"OK所以我會建議就是我剛才其實也也嘗試要講就是我們現在的法令其實也許才化法有做了些修改地方也許有些經費了這個時候我覺得我們的法令也要要求地方政府不論是住宅計劃或者是租金補貼"},{"start":13929.392,"end":13948.345,"text":"分級租金補貼這些部分其實也應該要提出方案那當然中央主管機關基於整體政策跟全國龍統的原則性他要訂規範但是地方政府我們在法令上也要科以他的權利跟責任以上好謝謝我們李德權副教授那麼下一位我們請王宏輝委員"},{"start":13963.544,"end":13991.242,"text":"好謝謝主席以及現場今天參與這場公聽會的學者專家還有官員我想我們現在住宅法的修法法的方向基本上是針對希望能夠提升租屋主還有弱勢團體的居住正義所以現在有兩大修法方向一個就是讓有未成年子女的青年夫婦是可以優先來成購成租"},{"start":13993.303,"end":13994.106,"text":"而且也將一定比例的我們的社宅優先給弱勢的鄉親來撐住"},{"start":13999.761,"end":14025.22,"text":"那另外一部分就是以在我們台北市來說我們很多的社宅因為它是屬於新的住宅那不只這個租金如果你跟其他區域附近區域來比的話因為它要達到一定的比例或者是然後再加上它的管理費其實以在台北市來說它會有一個問題就是很多人"},{"start":14027.722,"end":14056.269,"text":"认为社会住宅即使他的租金对于很多的不管是属于尤其是属于年轻的家庭或者他育有子女的其实都是这个比例都是偏高的那今天我也看到内政部在报告里面也提到了就说在不同地区以不同租金的这个规范的租金上限是以国际公认租金负担率31%"},{"start":14057.549,"end":14059.091,"text":"但是如果你針對現在的一個高物價高通膨特別是比如說今天在我們另外一個委員會談到少子化的問題"},{"start":14073.411,"end":14087.484,"text":"所以如果今天我們所提出來的社宅然後提供給未成年就育有未成年子女的家庭來說我認為這樣一個百分之三十的負擔其實都是偏高的這個都是偏高的因為如果他"},{"start":14091.64,"end":14105.126,"text":"在這個租金的部分他的比例就是像達到30%而他還要育有子女更不要說他有其他的這個支出所以在這個部分我們是不是可以考慮未來"},{"start":14106.767,"end":14109.83,"text":"在整個租金負擔率應該把它下修到20%或25%我覺得這樣是一個比較能夠真正照顧所需要的那另外呢其實我們現在的整個的社會住宅其實它最大的問題是在於進度的問題"},{"start":14127.523,"end":14130.625,"text":"不管過去的蔡總統時代或者現在的賴總統時代其實都有去喊一個目標數比如蔡總統她當時喊出來了是8年20萬戶但是呢其實"},{"start":14142.611,"end":14161.074,"text":"以我們來看這樣的事實上是某一個程度是並沒有真正的落實因為真正的就是完工的戶數非常的少3.3萬戶那當然到了賴政府時代他是以包租代管的部分再把它增加然後有一個所謂的"},{"start":14162.175,"end":14167.197,"text":"百萬戶但是不管過去的二十萬戶也好或者是百萬戶也好那麼這個事實上呢都是一種感覺都是一個數字一個這個畫餅充積的概念"},{"start":14177.762,"end":14183.566,"text":"所以我們還是會認為就是我們在包含從中央政府到地方政府還是能夠尤其在需要的地區以我們台北市來說我們會覺得在一些需要的地區然後興建這個社會住宅但是呢即便到現在去興建社會住宅當然經過這麼多年的一個社會的溝通它的阻力沒有像"},{"start":14207.661,"end":14231.814,"text":"過去十年前或者數年前這麼大但是我們還是會面臨到一些屬於社區的一些溝通因為這些我們民意代表感受最深刻所以我們現在也在台北市譬如說以我的選區它不用那種非常極大量的因為一旦大量的塞進去的時候那可能就會有一些居民會覺得"},{"start":14232.955,"end":14236.717,"text":"比較質疑因為對當地的這個生活的他的一個負荷但是我們現在比如說現在我的選區台北市政府已不用太大量他可能幾十戶在百戶左右百戶以下那這個其實呢就可以完全的"},{"start":14253.564,"end":14256.146,"text":"我覺得可以大幅的降低大家對於這些社宅的一些疑慮另外用一點點時間我們雖然提到了對於育有未成年子女的"},{"start":14269.674,"end":14282.881,"text":"那我覺得未來我們甚至可以考慮在台灣的社會的環境別說像香港、新加坡他們除了是對於你有未成年子女育兒甚至你有出生的嬰兒你會有家權之外另外還有針對如果你有三代同堂因為我們現在也有一些獨居老人的問題在台北市獨居老人問題非常非常大"},{"start":14296.869,"end":14318.409,"text":"那如果我們未來在整個的這個社宅的設計能夠有一些能夠去解決包含少子化包含獨居老人讓老人長者可以跟他的第二代或第三代能夠一起來居住而我們在社宅的這個家權的部分能夠做一些設計"},{"start":14319.73,"end":14345.828,"text":"那麼當然這個可以更符合現在的一個老年化我們現在長者的比例非常高而且呢獨居老人也變得非常非常多那麼在這邊非常感謝我們所有的尤其我們內政委員會那麼全力來做這個住宅法修正的努力也謝謝我們的學者專家以及官員大家一起來共同的支持以上謝謝"},{"start":14347.419,"end":14350.502,"text":"好 謝謝王洪輝委員我們現在再請政府機關針對剛剛的二輪發言做簡單的回應內政部有請"},{"start":14363.045,"end":14383.488,"text":"我想針對楊凱民署長所提到的我們當然還是會積極去建構這個平台的可能性但是平台要建構就如同剛才所提到的其實有很多個資的問題跟一些資訊的揭露我們必須要在個資法跟其實相關的資訊都明確化的狀態之下我們去作業所以現階段我們當然是"},{"start":14384.589,"end":14404.646,"text":"能夠作業的事情我們就儘量先去作業大概是包括一些資訊的收集所以我們透過我們租金補貼的平台我們就做一些資訊的收集那在未來我們的那個相關整個的那個調查的過程裡面其實現在住宿中心也有一些相關的平台正在作業建設當中我們會透過這個平台快速的將整個資訊"},{"start":14405.607,"end":14420.483,"text":"做整體的規劃但是住宅相關的研究我們還是會積極去作業因為住宅的議題當然不是只有設宅的需求他背後還有許多其他我們針對整體的居住環境還有包括我們的整體的"},{"start":14421.724,"end":14444.762,"text":"住宅的價格等等的相關的問題我們都必須要一併來做考量跟調查我想科研計畫的本身不是只是提供一個數據科研計畫的本身背後是希望能夠看到更多不同的事情跟故事那我們會透過這樣的方式來做積極的研究那像剛剛黃委員所指教的事情我們也都會列入考量以上謝謝"},{"start":14447.421,"end":14454.556,"text":"好 謝謝董事長我們剛剛有這個二輪的這個學者專家部會有想針對學生部分的我們是不是請教育部這個吳專委稍微簡單說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":14461.873,"end":14474.869,"text":"主席各位宇賀先進大家好剛剛有幾位先進關心本部政策的部分我這邊做簡要的說明教育部從108年起推動新宿舍的運動這個計畫主要分為四個大項"},{"start":14479.934,"end":14508.423,"text":"首先是針對這個學校興建宿舍也就是蓋一棟宿舍的部分布裡面是補助這個學校跟銀行貸款的利息那補助利息的部分那第二個部分是針對這個學校如果要整修學生宿舍來提供學生更好的住宿品質的部分布裡面跟學校是各出一半也就是如果學校整修宿舍需要兩千萬元的預算的話"},{"start":14509.023,"end":14528.246,"text":"那本部跟學校各出一千萬那剛有先進提到說這個學生宿舍是自償性建築的部分在這個計畫已經有突破也就是剛講的就是說興建的部分補助這個貸款利息那整修的部分是會跟學校各出一半"},{"start":14528.746,"end":14554.521,"text":"那第三個部分是針對學生如果到校外去租屋的部分這個計畫也提供這個租金的補貼但因為後來內政部的300億的租金補貼已經針對18歲以上的都有做補貼那這個部分就回歸學生就可以回歸跟內政部申請那部裡面改為這個補助校內的住宿學生"},{"start":14555.101,"end":14576.566,"text":"那學生一學期可以補助住宿費五千元那弱勢生可以補助到一學期七千元這是第三個部分那剛有先進提到這個學生申請社會住宅的部分那教育部是尊重內政部的意見那第四個部分是"},{"start":14578.069,"end":14584.366,"text":"如果學校在校內已經找不到這個地方可以蓋宿舍的部分必須"},{"start":14585.711,"end":14611.723,"text":"到學校外面去租一棟建築或是幾層的建築來作為學生住宿的部分布裡面也有提供補助那這個部分剛也有先進關心到說這個第四項的子計劃的執行成效比較不好的部分那後續那因為涉及到這個學校到校外去租這個"},{"start":14613.191,"end":14625.9,"text":"住宅來認定為社會住宅部分也涉及到內政部那部裡面後續會跟內政部再來共同研商來提升這個第四項仔細化的這個推動成效以上報告"},{"start":14628.669,"end":14652.782,"text":"好 謝謝我們吳專委的報告好 那感謝各位學者專家今天提供寶貴的意見我們今天所有出席人員列席人員的發言跟提供的書面資料以及剛才高精素美委員所提的書面資料除了刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員以及所有出列席人員的參考"},{"start":14653.956,"end":14663.003,"text":"再次感謝各位今天的參與謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束我們散會今天中午有準備便當辛苦大家了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16551","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16551","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddaa0a16addb1226391097cfa4245e41497692a6bdb7e2f09ffea1662677de773b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-27T08:30:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-27T12:54:00+08:00","duration":15823,"影片長度":"04:23:43","委員發言時間":"08:30:17 - 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陳副主任委員彥良：比率的部分，我想我們會努力積極的再往上提升。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些小規模營業人簽了，因為他們要付一些手續費，如果沒有相當的誘因，可能就會取消行動支付這樣對市民和民眾比較方便的支付方法。所以部長，我知道財政部最不喜歡繼續減稅，只要少一塊錢，你們都不太高興，但是如果要達到政府的政策目標，是不是請兩個部會給我一個初步的研議，因為今年年底就要到期，你們能不能達到，第二個，要不要繼續延長？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們協同金管會一起來研議，給委員一個報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，一個月之內。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢。","下一位請王世堅委員質詢。","向委員會報告，這個時間可以發便當，各位如果有需要，請自行取用。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00001"}}},{"id":"159768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900ca36a8642aeb27a41a80f058510e45acd16a2c63b7abd3ddf1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:47:02 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我請經濟部蔣副部長 蔣次長蔣次長請財政部莊部長 財政部莊部長委員好蔣次長 莊部長莊部長我覺得先前啊 我跟你提到的汽車高關稅跟"},{"start":28.7,"end":55.065,"text":"保健食品的高關稅我覺得我確實有點錯怪了你啦我今天在經濟部面前喔我跟你提在這個部分財政部是戴罪羔羊啦經濟部是罪魁禍首然後經濟部我覺得很奇怪啦第一點你們部長部長今天沒來我還以為他在經濟委員會那我沒話講"},{"start":55.882,"end":76.597,"text":"他今天是請假耶這麼重要的事你回去問他什麼原因請假搞清楚派一個副部長來負責應付也來應付應付隨便來做個報告是這樣子嗎你看看你們這個報告"},{"start":79.943,"end":108.749,"text":"我先說人家今天列席財政部也好 中央銀行也好 金管會也好包括國發會 你看看他們的報告中央銀行九張金管會七張財政部也都六張以上就只有你經濟部我剛剛跟你提你是最可貴貨手結果你扣掉"},{"start":111.104,"end":136.137,"text":"第一頁封面最後一頁扣掉你只有兩頁就這樣短短的兩張最後一張為什麼要扣掉最後一張因為他寫以上報告敬請指教並敬祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝廢話 那那一張算什麼所以你就兩張好啦"},{"start":139.994,"end":166.073,"text":"這麼重要的事件我們要應對的黑經濟部你的態度就是雲淡風輕啦你不但不認為骯髒十五國對我們台灣這個影響而且你更沒有提出具體的對策如何回應的方式通通沒有 付之卻如我今天就針對這兩項跟你提"},{"start":169.025,"end":175.828,"text":"因為我剛剛講的汽車關稅高關稅17.5%這一年來這已經第三個會期我一直問莊部長這件事說汽車關稅是不是應該調降"},{"start":187.055,"end":199.565,"text":"他講講講 講到最後沒辦法 他只好把實話說出來他說因為經濟部訂的上位政策 說要保護我們國內的汽車產業我請問你啦 育勇這個阿斗 我們已經保護了他六十幾年了 請問經濟部"},{"start":208.471,"end":218.085,"text":"還要保護這個阿斗保護多久啦我現在請問你啊還要保護這個阿斗保護多久你告訴我"},{"start":219.704,"end":222.707,"text":"阿斗早在8年前就把汽車研發中心就去掉了"},{"start":244.889,"end":261.598,"text":"他在將近十年來不務正業他汽車的設計製造生產都沒了他現在做兩三件事情一個他設一個租賃公司就我講的薯條三兄弟他排老二玉龍"},{"start":265.219,"end":275.307,"text":"在育容在做放高利貸的事好了那個其次第二個他在做土地開發蓋房子啊"},{"start":276.601,"end":300.419,"text":"完全跟汽車產業無關你在保護他保護什麼第三個他幫中共木馬屠城把中共從MT車開始就這樣化整為零進到我們台灣那因為藉由我們保護國產車的方式在台灣組裝變成國產車我們在保護他天啊我真搞不懂經濟部你們是瞎了嗎沒看到嗎"},{"start":305.097,"end":334.02,"text":"你竟然放任這樣的事情發生還好 還好總統派院長我跟他提了以後他去年七月有設了我們國產車的定義自治率從15%開始好啦 你設了15%玉龍今年初他又開始了NG他又重新上市 為什麼我們訂15%嘛 對不對部長你有沒有去 次長你有沒有去查一查"},{"start":334.909,"end":360.904,"text":"他有自私率他說有啦我有到15%什麼的他就把MG車子裡面座椅啦天啊汽車最重要的是引擎發動機電瓶輪軸這些通通沒有通通沒有那才是汽車的要件結果他跟你塞了一個說啊座椅座椅在我們台灣座天啊要他去"},{"start":365.049,"end":385.067,"text":"出口到中國把他製造的車要到反攻大陸他一點辦法都沒有他現在幫中共在木馬屠城台灣這就是現在你要保護的禦龍啊然後美國他針對這個來不高興當然很合理啊因為他要求的那個"},{"start":390.576,"end":405.921,"text":"講的不只是關稅齁包括不公平的補貼啦其他稅負等所以你17.5%的高關稅以外還有高貨物稅25到30%營業稅5%這應當啦所以整個我們對美國的進口車稅負會高達55到61%這個你們應該非常清楚了了若指掌結果就我講的嘛"},{"start":420.106,"end":428.394,"text":"你們來到這裡我八個字講不當一回事你身為上位政策制定的經濟部你可以這樣子嗎所以我希望你把我今天的問題帶回去問你們部長那另外一點"},{"start":443.649,"end":470.754,"text":"我們財政部沒有問題啦我說另外這個保健食品保健食品啦 另外一個30%的高關稅也是經濟部所試經濟部說要保護我們國內的這些生技業 製藥業所以訂這麼高的關稅欸 韓國啊 4%日本高一點 14%其他東南亞國家 泰國越南都多5%"},{"start":472.647,"end":498.797,"text":"我們竟然高達30%那個市長保健食品營養品是為國人的健康為國人健康的竟然高過30%高過會危害健康的菸酒菸酒那麼高也才27%那要照顧我們健康的要更高要30%"},{"start":500.057,"end":521.267,"text":"你不覺得這很莫名其妙嗎 難道保護到國內這些小商業我現在講給你看 這些多不公平 至少這幾項都不公平第一點 這讓我們國人沒辦法用合理的比較低廉的價格取得品質比較更好的歐美日的這些保健品 這你也知道啊"},{"start":523.837,"end":547.703,"text":"第二個在我們一年一千七百億的保健食品消費當中我們已經高達一千億是國內這些大廠做的國內這些廠盤踞了這一千億的市場他們都上市上櫃了啦但是帶來的影響是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":549.102,"end":574.394,"text":"這些生氣藥廠不再研發藥品啦我們現在健保遇到那麼困難那在藥價的部分 這些藥廠也不去研發重要的心臟病 高血壓 糖尿病 重要會致病的藥他們也不做 也不研發好啦 你不研發 那讓他專利到了以後 你讓你去做學名藥好不好幫我們政府分擔一點好不好 他也不"},{"start":575.635,"end":590.525,"text":"通通不 為什麼因為他把持著這一千億這麼高金額 高獲益的他幹嘛再去做這些所以你看 去年前年我們連那個蘇易有沒有"},{"start":596.616,"end":604.866,"text":"沒有人要做啊 便宜的東西誰做 天啊這是我們國家的生技業藥廠 他們該做這樣嗎那你不 好了我們從美國進口的這一個部分 進口的還有高達"},{"start":615.472,"end":643.299,"text":"低啦 低啦我們台灣一千億了嘛送七百億從國外美國 紐西蘭 日本進國美國就佔五十一趴啦三百多億 難怪他們當然不爽這個是合理的啦剛好而已啦所以我不懂啊你那麼高的關稅 你說要保護產業欸 產業的保護比保護我們國民的身體健康重要嗎我請問你"},{"start":646.377,"end":670.265,"text":"跟委員報告保健食品的部分我們已經研議會往調降的方向來做研議往調降那一年要降多少你要幾年內去達成調到合理這個部分我們還需要跟財政部還有相關的產業不用你不用跟財政部談了人家財政部講你的上位政策這樣決定所以他們只好去做"},{"start":672.162,"end":699.892,"text":"好不好 你定個timetable出來嘛你的目標嘛 好不好現在有在討論 我們會調降會調降 啊多久調降 多久內開始實施調降我們還需要在內部做相關的研議那什麼時候給我答覆 因為你是次長歲你沒辦法答覆嗎那這樣要你們部長來啊 要他來他又不來"},{"start":701.735,"end":710.563,"text":"他藐視我們委員會 藐視全體立法院同仁耶 天啊有請假這麼重要的時候 這麼重要的財經濟部 他請什麼假 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2時23分）謝謝主席，麻煩衛福部呂次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：次長好。今天有兩個問題跟次長討論一下，一個是定點臨托，後面還有教育部的2歲專班的部分。我們知道定點臨托，尤其是突然需要的時候，真的很需要，因為現在很多是雙薪家庭，孩子如果突然有問題，今天早上出現問題能夠明天處理嗎？理論上是不行，就好像我們在做健康的維護，如果身體不適，尤其是緊急狀況，一定都想趕快去急診，趕快找醫療人員來協助。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：現在我們的定點臨托其實有碰到一些問題，麻煩署長也一起來討論一下，去年賴總統即將就任前的母親節，他就說三項裡面有一項叫公幼臨時照顧服務，是一個重要的政策，希望可以針對定點的臨托，提供給所有的家庭，尤其是0歲到2歲的小朋友，或者是6歲之前可以有比較好的作法，這部分從去年7月開始就在公立跟非營利的幼兒園開始做定點的試辦臨時照顧服務模式。我們也看到在今年的預算書裡面有編列定點臨托所的預算，可是具體的目標、量能，還有執行的狀況，到目前為止，有沒有讓民眾可以瞭解的初步成果？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的指教，我想定點臨托確實是很多家長共同關心的議題。我先簡單講兩個數字，第一、因為0到2是我們的部分，等一下我再請教育部補充，我們全國的定點臨托，目前總共是158處，這裡面我們鼓勵地方政府結合既有的社福設施，包括社福中心、親子館、婦女館、社會住宅趕快擴增，也跟委員報告，我們到年底會再增加26處。這邊是不是也請教育部就教育部的部分跟委員回復一下？"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員報告，這幾年我們大量在做的應該是增加2歲專班，定點臨托的部分，我們從去年開始試辦，目前全國有54個點在提供服務，目前為止每個月參與的人次大概是五百多。以上。"],["王委員正旭：這樣加一加大概也不到200個據點。"],["呂次長建德：是的，還是要……"],["王委員正旭：全臺灣有這麼多的需求，執行上如何再跟地方政府做更重要的掌握跟進度上面的處理，這部分可能還要再加強。"],["呂次長建德：確實，我也認為應該還有提高的空間。"],["王委員正旭：我們也瞭解了一下，目前發現新北也有一些臨托的服務，可是基本上就是相對比較不足，而且他們是要在3天前提出臨時的需求，這個根本就不符合臨托的精神，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：我們剛才有談到，都是突然有需要，如果3天前可以安排，我就不用叫臨時托育，所以這部分可能需要來加強。都會區如果都有這樣的問題，我們也知道偏遠地區、縣市，包括我們召委的屏東，可能也有這些困擾，這些地方都很需要。另外我們也看到臺中市的部分，次長以前在臺中服務對吧？"],["呂次長建德：對，我之前是在臺中市。"],["王委員正旭：臺中市總共有幾區？"],["呂次長建德：總共29區。"],["王委員正旭：你知道29區裡有幾個據點嗎？"],["呂次長建德：6個。"],["王委員正旭：你看1個區都不到1個，那麼大的地方，還是人口密集的地方。"],["呂次長建德：這個我想媽媽市長應該會非常關心，我們也會來責成他趕快來推動。"],["王委員正旭：媽媽市長……當地的這些議員同仁，大家互相要求啦！"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["王委員正旭：因為我們也知道，其實年輕人真的是不方便。我們的瓊瓔委員也在現場。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有，我們本來就全力啊！"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["王委員正旭：對，我們希望真的是中央要有政策，地方也能夠共同來配合，因為這對我們相關的民眾來講都非常重要。另外，這個服務的模式其實也需要網絡的設計，還有網頁的設計要更親民、更方便。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：以新北為例，現在就是需要兩天工作天，利用線上、電話、現場預約，這個服務量已經被利用到多少？如果不夠親民，或是沒有讓民眾知道的話，其實執行起來困境很大。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：這部分我們也希望，中央既然訂了政策，大家一起來努力，才能把這個事情做好，這是我們目前看到的一些困境。比對我們的好鄰居日本，人家有24小時的耶！我們只是臨時托育一下而已，這些從事夜間服務的家庭們，如果有夜間服務的需求該怎麼辦？日本人有在做，我們也可以看看日本有什麼好政策啊！這部分不知道我們有沒有去學習過？"],["許副署長麗娟：目前如果各幼兒園在提供服務上，只要是人手充裕的話，他們要實施夜托，目前在法制上都有提供空間。"],["王委員正旭：是，法制上有。我們再來看，其實臺南有這樣做，還有高雄市前金區的大同社會住宅裡面，前一天晚上8點的時候幼兒可以入住，隔天早上再讓家長帶回去，所以不是沒有人做。如果當作標竿學習，各個不同城市的需求把它設計出來，希望大家學習好的榜樣，這樣才能讓社會更進步。"],["呂次長建德：高雄這個確實是很值得我們來推廣，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：所以今天這部分，其實我們有一些政策上的建議，包括這五大點，也麻煩部裡和署裡來參考，包括臨托定點的設置要更積極來協調；再來就是全國各縣市的臨托資訊要公開，要有一個平臺，這個平臺要能夠順利的讓民眾在有需要的時候可以掌握相關的狀況，當然這個需要宣傳，雖然我們的一些費用好像被統刪、統凍，不過這個宣傳還是需要，不然民眾不知道有這個好的服務。"],["呂次長建德：確實，我們很多媒體宣傳基本上也是希望把好的政策還有這些福利報給我們民眾知道，所以我想也請大院能夠來支持我們的媒體宣傳，擴散我們這些福國利民的政策。另外我跟委員簡單報告一下，有關托育媒合的平臺，本部已經在上半年把臨托據點納入，我們會趕快來加強宣導，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：還有假日的部分和申請時間要更有彈性，希望能夠三個月內給我們一份報告，方便嗎？"],["呂次長建德：這個……"],["王委員正旭：這些政策上的建議看能不能研議，給我們一份資料，看大家的進度掌握的狀況。"],["周代理署長道君：因為我們預計是在上半年可以把這個訊息公布的平臺做出來，如果委員這邊可以接受，我們是不是在上半年，即6月底的時候，我們把整個平臺操作的狀況，把資料提供給委員做一個報告。"],["王委員正旭：好。再來就是2歲專班，再給我一點時間，因為教育專家說0歲到2歲就是讓孩子平安長大，3歲以上才是進入到神經發育快速的成長期，所以2到3歲在照顧上好像就有一點困境，其實卓院長也希望讓年輕人能夠敢生樂養，2歲專班要增設200班，目前不知道執行的狀況如何？"],["許副署長麗娟：整體公共化的部分，我們這幾年增加了3,699班，其中2歲的部分已經增加了1,160班，今年還會再增加100班，去年也已經增加了將近200班，所以院長所提的方向，我們有持續在進行。"],["王委員正旭：太好了！相信在這樣的執行之下，這群2歲到3歲的小朋友們就可以順利地得到大家的照顧。","最後我們也希望，未來幼兒園的師生比可以有效地得到一個好的掌控，我們目前訓練了那麼多的人才，又能夠教育我們的小朋友們順利成長，請大家繼續來努力，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員，謝謝次長。你的意思是出生就可以去幼兒園了嗎？"],["王委員正旭：對，出生就可以去托嬰中心到2歲。"],["主席：不用錢的？"],["王委員正旭：對，公托，你有需要？"],["主席：我孫子啦！謝謝。","我們接續請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900c6087f3f325ebc5e7648dfe0a0275fc5c923c0b21f6ae5610d19e8fa393994795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"13:58:58 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呂政次 托育人現在流動力的情況有沒有改善因為這邊還有一個右膠的一個問題 相關的兩塊 有兩塊"},{"start":113.865,"end":126.623,"text":"你們就是衛福部這邊管的就是比方說我們這邊是零到二那二到六部分是由那個教育部那我跟委員報告你先跟委員報告一下"},{"start":129.392,"end":149.817,"text":"跟委員報告這幾年來我們對於零到二的這些幼托人員的照顧現場我們怎麼樣去降低他的流動率我們大概會透過幾個主要的策略第一個是當然是薪資的部分我們會做一部分的處理在今年一四年的時候公托人員的薪資我們從三萬五千多調到三萬八千多"},{"start":150.537,"end":171.497,"text":"第二個我們對於照顧現場照顧人員的比例現行的法規規定托嬰中心只要1比5我們現在透過補助降到1比4增加補助的部分照顧現場的負擔可以讓工作人員的負擔可以降低一點"},{"start":171.917,"end":183.693,"text":"OK 那我想請問一下教育部一下因為教育部這問題比較嚴重因為目前每年大概有4200名的一個幼教跟幼保的教科系的一個畢業生進入職場的有多少"},{"start":184.781,"end":212.46,"text":"相關職場的比例有多少委員這個資料我們可不可以匯後提供給可以 因為剛剛有一個委員講15%而已我覺得怎麼會比我想像中的更低那我想這邊要特別提到一個狀態是這個是去年全國教保產業公會他們所提出的狀態他們認為誘託人員期待的照顧現場大概會有幾點的一個特質比方說友善職場的部分希望師生比能夠降低剛剛大概有提到一個部分"},{"start":213.2,"end":231.766,"text":"那另外就是針對整個信任幼教的一個專業然後心智的一個剛剛也有稍微提到的狀態那針對一個親師的一個信任這個部分坦白說一直出現有一些的一個衝突跟緊張的一個關係那針對這個部分的時候我們今年有沒有比較清楚的一個改善請教一下那個副署長這邊"},{"start":236.351,"end":245.141,"text":"那在幼兒園的部分親事我們大概分成兩部分如果老師其實對班金怎麼樣獲得家長的信任是一件非常重要的事情"},{"start":245.819,"end":273.056,"text":"所以呢這兩三年來對於老師怎麼提升他班級經營的專業能力我們是有非常多的工作方跟研習以及輔導在進行那家長的部分來講我們也讓家長可以理解那兩歲到六歲的孩子在幼兒園他的學習任務是什麼所以我們補助縣市政府補助幼兒園他們來辦親職教育的講座那也希望讓他們彼此可以理解我想直接接下來下一頁就是說"},{"start":274.537,"end":292.662,"text":"今年就是我們育兒補助大概有六大類那育兒補助六大類當中的時候生育給付這邊的時候大概主要是勞動部這邊給那各縣市的生育津貼就各縣市給那麼育兒津貼這邊的部分的時候是衛福部給衛福部給的部分那金額大概在這邊應該都沒有錯"},{"start":294.062,"end":312.467,"text":"那在育兒津貼跟托育補助跟幼兒園補助這邊的時候我們就發現他是僅能擇一那0到3歲的托育補助這邊的時候也是衛福部這邊在處理那2到6歲這邊幼兒園補助這邊的時候呢其實是教育部這邊在處理那另外就是0到3歲的一個"},{"start":313.391,"end":341.17,"text":"育嬰留職停薪津貼這邊的部分那勞動部這邊相關那我這邊這個圖出來之後我想特別提一個狀態就是私立幼兒園在這個過程當中的時候呢他們家長大概每個月大概只能夠選擇領取五千塊的一個育兒津貼這個部分因為其他的部分都沒有辦法去選擇可是以新竹這個地區來說的時候呢其實我們公立幼兒園 准公幼的部分"},{"start":341.61,"end":363.523,"text":"其實都沒有辦法真正滿足家長的需求除了說收費他們相對優惠之外的時候因為他們公立幼兒園他們下午4點放學那寒暑假沒有收拖那這狀態對大部分家長來講是一個很大的困擾那麼准公幼這邊的時候可以延長到大概下午7點鐘放學可是他沒有才藝班"},{"start":364.984,"end":390.941,"text":"所以這對家長來講也沒有辦法真正的滿足所以很多家長被迫他們要去選擇私立幼兒園因為私立幼兒園他們可以延長家長的一個下班的時間可以到晚上8點甚至於有到9點的都可以配合然後他們有才藝班當然他們收費貴可是這狀態來講就是因為我們現在的一個又拖整個又叫一個相當的一個"},{"start":392.677,"end":410.769,"text":"公托跟公幼的狀態都沒有辦法真正滿足家長的一個狀態那逼著他們一定要到市立幼兒園去可是他們得到的一個補助相對是比較低的話我們以2到6歲幼兒園來講第一胎的時候呢公幼跟非營利幼兒園跟總公幼他們家長只要付1000塊"},{"start":412.754,"end":436.874,"text":"只要付一千塊那就表示大部分都是我們教育部這邊幫他買單了那相較之下的時候送到私立幼兒園的家長來講他們就要負擔很高昂的一個費用那我想這個也是一個因為我們現在的一個幼托的一個狀態沒有辦法滿足家長的一個狀態所以大家覺得新竹這邊可能是最有錢的家長可是他們未必也能夠這麼感生"},{"start":439.195,"end":456.222,"text":"所以我在想說可不可以針對私立幼兒園這邊的一個補貼的一個部分我們教育部這邊有另外一個考量或者來看怎麼樣子給他們更好的一個支持讓年輕的家長們他們真的感生而且可以兼顧到工作上的需求"},{"start":461.394,"end":490.508,"text":"好那委員就教育部的部分大概說明一下因為在整個二到六歲他的政策主軸有兩個區塊有一個是擴大平價教保服務讓多一點的小朋友可以進到這個體系來那以現在全國那小朋友進到平價教保服務的機會率我們算過大概是八成那當然您提及的就是在新竹可能當地的價格會稍微高一點那事實上新竹市他可以比較像台北市"},{"start":491.175,"end":506.392,"text":"那在我們的合作費用上面新竹市是可以來做調整的那這個他們是可以做因為台北市就有這樣子的例子在那對我們的政策就是擴大評價讓多一點進來至於沒有進到評價的體系他可能會是家長自己照顧"},{"start":507.199,"end":530.46,"text":"也有可能是進到一般的私立幼兒園去就讀那目前來講統一都是津貼的標準在做支應副市長我想說這個問題的時候我希望說能夠幫一些送到私幼的家長爭取更多的一個福利然後讓他們真的是有能力生也敢生又能夠兼顧"},{"start":531.261,"end":551.592,"text":"工作上面的一個需求那之後是我想說再給我們本席一個比方說包括我們國發會這邊相關的一個部分因為這個部分可能它是一個制度上面的一個改變所以我也希望說衛福部這邊能夠一起統籌看怎麼樣子能夠一起解決這個問題好不好那我想說之後是不是請"},{"start":553.453,"end":561.244,"text":"教育部這邊給本席一個相關的資料好不好好好謝謝以上好感謝政委員好謝謝政委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1857,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（13時59分）謝謝主席，有請國發會詹副主委和衛生福利部呂政次、教育部國前署許副署長。","次長好。謝謝主席今天特別安排「少子女化衝擊，如何營造友善托育環境」這個主題。坦白說，去年龍年人口沒有增加，確實我們也非常意外，而且也非常擔心。去年的出生數只到十三點五萬，確實是一個很令人憂心的環境。所以要怎樣提高更多的新生兒出生數，確實是我們國家要跨部會一起來努力的。在整個少子化，主要是國發會在努力、統籌的。幼托工作這幾年一直碰到三高的狀態：高工時、高情緒、高壓力；還有三低的狀態：薪資低、福利低和保障低的工作窘境。請教衛福部呂政次，托育人員流動率的情況有沒有改善？因為還有幼教的問題，分兩塊，衛福部管的是？"],["呂次長建德：我們這邊是0到2歲，2到6歲是教育部。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，這幾年來我們對於0到2歲的幼托人員照顧現場，怎樣去降低他的流動率，我們大概會透過幾個策略：第一個當然是薪資的部分，我們會做一部分的處理，今年114年公托人員的薪資從三萬五千多元調到三萬八千多元。第二個，我們對於照顧現場照顧人員的比例，現行法規規定托嬰中心要1比5，我們透過補助讓它降到1比4，以增加的補助讓照顧現場的工作人員負擔可以降低一點。"],["鄭委員正鈐：請問教育部，因為教育部這問題比較嚴重。目前每年大概有4,200名幼教和幼保相關科系畢業生，進入職場的有多少？相關職場的比率有多少？"],["許副署長麗娟：委員這個資料可不可以會後提供給你？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以，因為剛剛有一個委員講15%而已，我覺得怎麼會比我想像中的更低？我想這邊要特別提到的一個狀態是，去年全國教保產業工會所提出的狀態。他們認為幼托的原期待照顧現場大概會有幾點的特質，比方說友善職場的部分，希望師生比能降低，剛剛大概有提到這個部分。另外就是針對整個現任幼教的專業，薪資剛剛也稍微提到，針對親師信任的部分，坦白說一直出現衝突和緊張的關係，針對這個部分，我們今年有沒有比較清楚的改善？請教一下副署長。"],["許副署長麗娟：幼兒園的部分其實大概分成兩部分，老師對於班級經營如何獲得家長的信任是一件非常重要的事情，所以這兩三年來對於老師怎麼提升班級經營的專業能力，我們有非常多的工作坊和研習以及輔導在進行。家長的部分，我們也讓家長可以理解2歲到6歲的孩子在幼兒園的學習任務是什麼？所以我們補助縣市政府、補助幼兒園來辦親職教育的講座，也是讓他們可以理解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：今年育兒補助大概有六大類，生育給付主要是勞動部給，生育津貼是各縣市給，育兒津貼是衛福部給，金額都在這邊，應該沒有錯。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["鄭委員正鈐：但育兒津貼、托育補助和幼兒園補助，我們發現只能擇一；0到3歲的托育補助也是衛福部處理；2到6歲幼兒園補助是教育部處理。另外就是0到3歲的育嬰留職停薪津貼是勞動部。我這邊這個圖出來之後，我想特別提一個狀況，就是私立幼兒園的家長大概每個月只能選擇領取5,000元的育兒津貼，因為其他部分都沒有辦法選擇。可是以新竹地區來講，其實公立幼兒園都沒有辦法真正滿足家長的需求，除了收費相對優惠之外，因為公立幼兒園下午4點放學，寒暑假沒有收托，這狀態對大部分家長來講是一個很大的困擾。準公幼的部分，可以延到下午7點放學，可是它沒有才藝班，所以對家長來講也沒有辦法真正的滿足。所以很多家長被迫選擇私立幼兒園！因為私立幼兒園可以延長家長的下班的時間，可以到晚上8點，甚至有到9點的，都可以配合！而且它們有才藝班，當然它們收費貴。可是因為公托、公幼都沒有辦法真正滿足家長，逼得他們一定要去私立幼兒園；可是他們得到的補助又相對比較低。以2到6歲幼兒園來講，第一胎公幼和非營利幼兒園跟準公幼，家長只要付1,000元，這表示大部分都是教育部買單。相較之下，送到私立幼兒園的家長就要負擔很高昂的費用。因為我們現在幼托沒有辦法滿足家長，所以大家覺得新竹這邊可能是最有錢的家長，可是他們未必也能夠這麼敢生。所以可不可以針對私立幼兒園的補貼，教育部能有另外的考量？或者看怎樣給他們更好的支持，讓年輕的家長們真的敢生，而且可以兼顧到工作上的需求？"],["許副署長麗娟：就教育部的部分大概說明一下。因為在整個2到6歲的政策主軸有兩個區塊：一個是擴大平價教保服務，讓多一點的小朋友可以進到這個體系來。以現在全國小朋友進到平價教保服務的機會率，我們算過大概是八成。當然，你提及的在新竹當地的價格會高一點，事實上，新竹市可以比照臺北市，在我們合作費用上面，新竹市是可以調整的，他們是可以做的，因為臺北市就有這樣的例子。我們的政策就是擴大平價，讓多一點進來。至於沒有進到平價的體系，可能家長會自己照顧，也有可能進到一般的私立幼兒園就讀。以目前來講，統一都是以津貼的標準在做支應。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我在想這個問題的時候，是希望能夠幫一些送到私幼的家長爭取更多福利，讓他們真的有能力生也敢生，也能兼顧工作上面的需求。之後再給本席一個報告，包括國發會這邊相關的部分，因為這個部分可能是制度上面的改變，所以我也希望衛福部這邊能夠一起統籌，看怎樣一起解決這個問題，好不好？也請教育部給本席相關的資料，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝鄭委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員、謝謝次長。","廖先翔、廖先翔，廖先翔委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","林德福委員改書面質詢。","葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束；委員黃捷、林德福、陳培瑜所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員黃捷書面質詢：","為完善職場育兒環境，勞動部已訂定產檢假、陪產檢及陪產假、產假、育嬰留職停薪、彈性工時、家庭照顧假等多項母性保護與家庭支持措施，期使新手父母能兼顧工作與家庭照顧。然而，在實際勞動現場運作中，上述假別制度仍存有待改善之處，爰提出以下建議：","一、針對育嬰留職停薪制度之意見","現行育嬰留停原則為：單次申請期間以6個月以上為原則，如有特殊需求，可申請短期育嬰假，但最少申請天數為30天、短期申請最多可申請2次，累計最長期間為2年。然在實際勞動現場，勞工普遍反映現行制度彈性不足，請假期間過長，難以配合實際育兒需求彈性運用。","建議勞動部研議修正《育嬰留職停薪薪資補助要點》，調整最小請假單位，朝向可按日申請之方向規劃。同時，應參酌「彈性育嬰留職停薪試辦計畫」座談會中雇主所提意見，檢討如何簡化留職停薪之行政程序，以提高雇主支持意願。","二、針對家庭照顧假之意見","根據資料顯示，過去一年內申請家庭照顧假的勞工中，女性占5.8%、男性占2.4%，顯著低於實際有照顧家人需求者之比例（女性28.5%、男性28.3%）。未申請的原因主要包括：部分勞工並不知曉此假別的存在，或因該假別無薪，影響請假意願。","然家庭照顧假對於應對如子女臨時停課（例如腸病毒疫情）或家人手術住院等緊急照顧需求，具有重要功能。建議勞動部應積極檢視現行制度設計，強化相關假別之宣導，並研議如何降低請假門檻，以協助勞工排除實務請假之障礙，提升制度可近性與實用性。","建請勞動部研議：(1)增加請假彈性，將家庭照顧假從以「日」為請假單位、改為以「小時」為請假單位之可行性。(2)由政府補助雇主，將家庭照顧假薪資照給之可行性。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","問題一","「腸病毒」是台灣地區地方性的流行疾病之一，有醫生提醒腸病毒71型，隨時可能爆發大流行。","為了照顧國家未來主人翁，減輕育兒家庭經濟負擔，預防勝於治療，本席希望衛生福利部將「腸病毒疫苗」納入「兒童常規疫苗」接種，以減少幼童因腸病毒重症致死及相關後遺症。","問題二","兒科人力問題已經存在許久，為了改善兒科人才流失問題，衛生福利部去年4月宣布提供「兒科住院醫師津貼」等補助。","此外，醫界爭取政府增加對「兒童重症醫療」的給付，讓中大型醫院更願意投入重症兒科醫療。","請問衛生福利部，兒科津貼補助相關政策推行快一年，目前「兒科醫師荒」有無改善，還是持續惡化？「兒童重症醫療」給付未來會如何調整？","問題三","2022年「中央研究院研究員」透過「數據」與「生育指標」指出，臺灣生育困境並非來自年輕夫妻只生一胎，而是因為「未婚人口」持續上升。","對此，公部門因應少子化的人口政策包括舉辦「單身聯誼活動」，但卻呈現「配對率高」、「結婚率低」的情形。","對此，衛生福利部與國發會有何看法？是否會「擴大單身聯誼活動」辦理？以提高結婚率，進而拉抬生育率。","問題四","為了友善生育環境，許多民眾希望能提高「家庭照顧假」天數。「雙薪家庭」如果小孩有狀況，可以請「家庭照顧假」，但會併入「事假」計算，「事假」一年有14天，但常面臨「假不夠用」的情況。","目前在立法院有委員提案，討論增訂「家庭照顧假」或「親職假」的法源，要讓父母「生得安心，養得放心」。","請問「勞動部」的看法為何？修法樂觀其成？是否會另外提出行政院版本？"],["委員陳培瑜書面質詢：","最近剴剴案引發社會大眾對於收出養安置與保母托育的關注。針對不適任的保母、行為不當的保母，我們要加強管理，避免再有小孩受害；但針對優良的保母，我們也要給予支持與鼓勵，胡蘿蔔跟棒子都要兼顧。因此，有關「兒童托育服務法」的立法內容，我有四點想提出建議。","首先，針對虐待、身心暴力等不當對待，由於刑法已有徒刑等刑罰，托育法以行政罰鍰為主，並區分為情節重大、尚非情節重大、情節輕微等三個等級。但草案中並未明訂各種等級區分的定義，我要求衛福部應該持續徵詢專家學者，並在母法或子法中寫清楚。","第二，針對將嬰兒獨留家裡、趴睡等相對小型的疏失，現行規定只能要求限期改善，不會留下紀錄。許多專家學者建議，在托育法第8條授權子法訂出「服務內容實施準則」時，除了訂出好的行為樣態，也應訂出不能踩的紅線，例如獨留在家、趴睡等等。此外，第8條的罰則在第73條，但如果一直違規，草案中還是給予限期改善的空間，可考慮直接裁罰，累積違規太多次就廢止許可。","第三，保母薪資過低，應該要讓好的保母可以留下來。但根據NGO去年的調查，保母的全職收入只有每月26,000到38,000元之間，將近九成縣市的保母收入不足以養家。而且加薪幅度又少又慢，導致長年低薪。原因就在於托育費用是中央放給縣市政府自己去訂定，22縣市就有22種調薪方法，高雄6年調薪3次，最多，但我認養的馬祖，6年來一次都沒漲。且加薪幅度也很小，6年來一半以上縣市調漲幅度不到1,000元。這種薪資怎麼有辦法留住好的托育人才？希望這次立法，中央可以明定托育費用的調整方式，讓保母的待遇合理化。","第四，也希望建立優良保母的獎勵與公開機制。目前在社家署的「托育媒合平台」網站上，已經可以讓家長查詢到合法持有證照保母的名單。建議衛福部可以再建立優良保母的獎勵機制，獎勵優良、沒有違規的保母，並且也可以把優良保母的名單標註於平台上，讓家長能夠查詢。","以上四點訴求，請次長納入托育法立法的考量中，多找專家學者與NGO討論，並加進去最後政院的版本，一起為兒少與優良保母的權益努力！"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於二週內書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（14時9分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900a969d475303798a37648dfe0a0275fc5c923c0b21f6ae56173d84130179852065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:43:55 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建德：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：次長好。目前每年菸捐平均收入金額大約多少？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，據我粗淺的了解，過去十年平均值大概313億元。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯，15年的資料彙整大概是313億元。用於國健署相關業務組的業務使用是多少？"],["呂次長建德：如果沒記錯，我記得好像是二千多萬元。"],["陳委員瑩：沒關係，組長不用緊張。如果你現在翻不到，給你們一週的時間，好好算清楚，給我們辦公室就好了。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：用於補助董氏基金會等民間團體的經費又是多少？"],["呂次長建德：因為我們有三位次長，這不是我督導的業務。"],["陳委員瑩：他們又沒來，但是有國健署。沒關係，因為這個問題我們也找了很久，不好找，我們沒有在你們裡面也是看不到，所以也給你們一週的時間，這個應該以前都有問過，一週喔！兩個數字。"],["呂次長建德：好，一週內。"],["陳委員瑩：這邊我舉董氏基金會為例，董氏基金會職員的薪資有沒有使用到菸捐？"],["呂次長建德：據我了解好像有。"],["陳委員瑩：應該是有？"],["呂次長建德：應該有。"],["陳委員瑩：如果有使用的話，薪資水準有沒有經過衛福部或國健署的審核？"],["呂次長建德：一般來說，像我所督導的婦女權益促進基金會和賑災基金會，他們的薪資都要報我們主管機關核備，但我不知道董氏基金會的情況是怎樣，我請同仁回去趕快了解，再回報給委員，一般來說是要。"],["陳委員瑩：麻煩你們。請問他們的薪資有沒有隨著公務人員加薪或基本工資的調升而調整？"],["呂次長建德：一般來說也是。"],["陳委員瑩：請你們一併了解完之後，全部都一週內一起回報我們辦公室。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["陳委員瑩：再請教次長，菸害對人體影響最大的兩個器官是什麼？"],["呂次長建德：我自己不抽，但我的了解好像是心和肺。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯。鑑別這兩個器官的重要檢查醫療儀器設備是什麼？"],["呂次長建德：好像是CT和MRI，一個是電腦斷層，一個是核磁共振。"],["陳委員瑩：我們絕對沒有洩題給呂次長，謝謝你很厲害的準備。再來，這些是不是都由醫事放射師的專業人員來操作？"],["呂次長建德：對，一般來說，這需要專業的放射師來操作相關的程序。"],["陳委員瑩：你知道醫事放射師的起薪是多少嗎？"],["呂次長建德：如果沒有記錯，好像3萬1,108元，低於中位數。"],["陳委員瑩：就你剛剛講的，我待會會給你一個數字。你知道二十年前他們的起薪跟現在差不多嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我不太清楚。"],["陳委員瑩：我今天的質詢就揭露一件驚人的事情。二十年前的起薪和現在其實是差不多的！這二十年來我們基本工資調整多少，簡報上都幫你們整理了。民國95年的時候是1萬5,840元，那時醫事放射師的薪水就是三萬多元。今年的最低工資是2萬8,590元，這個時候醫事放射師的薪水還是一樣三萬多元。這是上網看的徵人廣告，時間都是上個月，左上角的那家醫院我不好意思說在哪裡，那家醫院薪水就是3萬0,937元。左下角的醫院是3萬3,000元到3萬7,000元之間。最近大家一直在吵，也非常重視護理薪資很低的問題，殊不知醫事放射師的薪資是更低的，我很熱心的換算了一下，他們的時薪每個小時平均是129元。大家知道目前最低時薪是多少嗎？"],["呂次長建德：190元。"],["陳委員瑩：對，190元，所以這些醫事放射師不如去50嵐打工賣飲料，還有每個小時190元可以賺，而且又不用暴露在輻射的風險，多好！所以你看這樣人會不會都跑光光？你們可以回頭去看一下，主修這個科系的人畢業之後有多少比率是從事這樣的工作？看一下就知道了，非常低啊！次長，維持這樣的水準，搞不好沒多久，他們連起薪都要被最低工資超越了。我想一個通過國家考試、具有專業證照的醫事專業人員，領的薪水竟然跟基本工資差不多，甚至平均起來時薪還比在50嵐賣飲料打工的人還低，這樣合理嗎？"],["呂次長建德：因為這不是我業管，但是以我自己個人來看，老實說，委員說的這件事情是讓我滿訝異的，說真的有點偏低。"],["陳委員瑩：這個問題跟你有沒有督導這個業務無關，持平來看一下這個薪資水準就很清楚。次長，你知道在疫情期間醫事放射師是第一線接觸病患，為病患提供準確照攝服務的工作人員，但是他們並沒有獲得任何的危險補助，其他醫護人員都有，為何獨獨漏掉他們？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：謝謝委員的關切。如果是在COVID-19的時候，事實上政府對於醫護人員、醫事人員的支持是有兩部分：一個叫做津貼補助；一個叫獎勵金。獎勵金的部分，醫院就會根據他們參與的程度，核撥給院內的員工，所以獎勵金的部分應該會有。"],["陳委員瑩：他們實際上到底有沒有領到，你也可以去了解一下。獎勵金和危險補助是不太一樣的，且他們起薪三萬多元，又要暴露在游離輻射和病毒細菌的感染風險中，他們領的薪水幾乎是所有醫事人員最低的水準。所以本席要在這裡很嚴肅的提醒衛福部，這樣對待你們第一線的工作人員其實是相當不公平的。","另外，有一位自稱是一位心痛為孩子忡忡憂心的媽媽，這是兩年前他寫信給中華民國醫事放射師公會全聯會的信件，他希望杜理事長可以幫忙。這位媽媽將醫事放射師的職業困境做了一個詮釋，主要提到放射師職缺少、薪水被醫院壓得很低、人力又被刪減，美其名是考取一個高考的放射師執照等等。這個媽媽等了兩年，終於有機會輾轉透過本席再把這個信件轉給主管機關衛福部。目前賴總統的健康台灣政策要減少臺灣罹癌人數的增加，更要提早發現來減少罹癌的死亡人數，這些都需要醫事放射師提供準確的機器，讓電腦斷層掃描和磁振造影的操作。因為精準、貴重的儀器設備都非常需要他們的專業去操作，但醫事司居然用牴觸母法的函釋來開後門，要求醫事放射師打對比劑，還有直腸氣球處置的侵入性醫療行為。我講到這些，你們不要否認，說絕對沒有這種情形發生！甚至也不要像有些人說北部的醫院沒有，都是中南部醫院的事情！我覺得你們要好好去了解，我也不是這種專業，但是我卻知道了這個事情，我也不可能憑空捏造出來。像你們都只有提供邊際勞工的薪資待遇給他們，次長，我覺得這其實是一種歧視特定專業的行為，不要這樣不清不楚，不重視他們的勞動權益。","再來，次長知道勞動部的勞工職災保險有做職災勞工的職業重建的工作嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我知道。"],["陳委員瑩：你不知道沒關係，就當作是一個新知識的吸收。"],["呂次長建德：這我知道。"],["陳委員瑩：你怎麼那麼聰明，什麼都知道。這些工作裡面有一塊很重要的復工計畫，就是用職災保險基金來補助事業單位的雇主聘僱職災勞工，給勞工30%到70%的薪資補助。所以我要在這裡具體建議，應該將菸捐的部分用來提升第一線的檢測癌症篩檢的醫事放射師人員的薪資，讓菸捐的使用更加合理。我想這項用途一定比你們業務單位不編列公務預算，反而用基金更有說服力，甚至比提供給民間團體，例如最有名、最強的董氏基金會對於業務及薪資的使用更有意義。","最後提醒，不要忘了你們的加熱菸要開放所增加的菸捐金額是非常龐大的，菸捐的使用以及醫事放射師薪資水準的調升，衛福部是不是可以好好的規劃，次長怎麼看這個事情？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，誠如委員剛剛所說的，菸捐的部分其實在本部裡面基本上有一個配置，我覺得剛剛委員的建議相當好，是不是容許我帶回去跟部長報告？這個部分我覺得確實朝委員剛才建議的方向，我覺得這個確實是福國利民的，加熱菸的議題大家也都非常關心，我覺得這應該要積極來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：請你們兩週內把相關規劃以書面提供給本席，當然，菸捐也要落實收到，我們才有可能落實後面講的這些事情。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員指導。"],["主席：我剛剛幫你查了區域醫院協會。放射師起薪差不多4萬5,000元，每個月的加給和大小夜加一加，差不多五萬多元。在COVID-19期間，只要有去幫別人照片子，1個月加1萬元，所以那兩、三年有去報的都是12萬元、12萬元，不過還是偏低。"],["陳委員瑩：確實還有醫院起薪是三萬多元。"],["主席：我剛才是查區域醫院協會，地區醫院是不是有差一點？"],["陳委員瑩：區域醫院不多。"],["主席：80幾家，醫學中心應該高一點點，不過跑到新加坡去，臺灣的放射師到新加坡一個月薪水差不多16萬元到18萬元。","陳培瑜委員改書面質詢。","鄭天財委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90011d30e72d14fec4c7648dfe0a0275fc53cf129e64e549d19f5ff160f27f5ee205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"13:33:25 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不要說就是人口退估怕死人少子化就看不壞的人"},{"start":138.889,"end":157.158,"text":"對吧是不是這樣所以我們要的是效果所以說我們要提升但是的效果或者是的策略是什麼我們想要看到的是這個報告委員其實誠如今天各部會所提出來的那從其實我們107年就開始推動少子女化對策計畫那這個計畫其實是統合各部會的一個相關的一個努力"},{"start":167.303,"end":192.913,"text":"對 但是我看到說我們我國與就是OACD的聯盟各國的相比我國的人口數策略中對一兒子支持規模明顯是不足所以我們國發會的人口策略白皮書是否有考慮就是納入還有我們家庭政策與托育系統"},{"start":195.013,"end":204.796,"text":"具體的指標我們也沒有看到所以或者改善我們的育兒園推動委員會由我們國發會擔任一個統整的平台有嗎 有這樣子的策略嗎 還是說我們要拿這個行政院的等級 但是說就沒辦法這樣"},{"start":216.699,"end":240.668,"text":"報告委員目前確實那個行政院這邊還是由行政院這邊來做督導那這個部分我們目前就是那個行政院這個這一部分那個除了政委這邊以外他相關的一些對策計畫的一個執行檢討其實還會再上報到院長主持的受福推動委員會其實是一個行政院我們要的是說方法對"},{"start":242.528,"end":246.712,"text":"方法不只是開會 每個都開會 哪開哪沒開 都不會買開業不會 我們不是要這樣 我們要說我們要有具體的具體的策略具體的策略 大家才能是"},{"start":259.083,"end":283.071,"text":"才能真正的是減少少子化不是只是說就是各個等級但是我們國發會是可以去統整的不是只是跟行政院開會而已這個部分我們希望是有一個具體的策略這個方案讓我們人民看到因為我們現在年輕人少子化"},{"start":284.572,"end":290.677,"text":"看到你這樣子的評估 怕就怕死啊 哪有誰要生小孩但是我們要怎麼樣讓我們少子化去減少一些我們的經濟的壓力還有讓我們的年輕人他們真正的覺得是說有希望啦 對不對我有希望 我生活過得好 我生個小孩我可以養得起啊"},{"start":309.233,"end":315.536,"text":"但是我們是我們的策略讓我們年輕人就沒辦法 又要怎麼死所以說少子化就變成我們國安的問題要不然叫我們老人跟我們的老人去當兵 要去顧國家 那不可能所以說我們國發會有一些策略說讓更多的我們外來的人進來這邊讀書"},{"start":334.845,"end":352.909,"text":"挣扎我们学校的学生但是我们有没有解决我们台湾的人口啊我们要把这些费用要去补助我们的台湾的人口我们让我们的年轻人小孩子读书不用钱不是把我们人民的纳税钱"},{"start":357.01,"end":382.83,"text":"這樣根本就是策略嗎就是一時嘛 知標不知本對不對 我們希望的我們國發會要編列要整合各個部會要把這些經費給我們在地的年輕人讓他們結婚生子才能鞏固我們的台灣不是拿錢解決的就是讓大家看到的數量說我要解決多少"},{"start":383.43,"end":410.202,"text":"大學生已經沒有打對不對 又解決多少企業缺工都是白人的孩子啊 台灣的孩子呢都沒有人照顧我們生小孩什麼都是什麼事情都自己照顧自己要出錢 讀書也是自己的但是我們要去國外去討好別人 叫別人來讀書我給他免費包豬包吃什麼的但是我們的小孩呢"},{"start":411.362,"end":436.327,"text":"誰來包?政府會不會來包?沒有啊,誰要敢生?生了沒人吃,自己的肚子餓,要怎麼去養孩子?對不對?所以我們希望我們台灣要有策略對我們的年輕人,還有說讓大家覺得說我要生這個小孩,不是成為我的負擔是為了國家的未來"},{"start":437.907,"end":447.109,"text":"所以我們希望說改善的就是我們的一額的福利還有提高我們住房可以就是負擔的還有改善我們的工作環境經濟知識要穩定所以我們要提高交易的預算還有"},{"start":466.014,"end":467.636,"text":"讓我們的年輕人可以負擔得起小孩可以讀書,可以補習,讀得更好還可以丟啊,對不對,不然拿小孩給錢都給別人所以我們要推動移民政策是解決"},{"start":482.154,"end":499.292,"text":"現在的 但是未來呢 對不對 我們要未來讓小孩看到未來才敢結婚 才敢生子這個才是我們要做的 不要說推估一堆 讓人家就怕死人啊但是呢 少子化就沒辦法 沒辦法的人連天出去都沒看到一個年輕人"},{"start":504.148,"end":521.781,"text":"這樣覺得對我們的策略 所以我們要具體的掃紙花的策略是針對我們台灣的年輕人 如何讓他們結婚生子台灣人 什麼叫真正的台灣人沒死啊 就把人帶來這裡 我們就來這裡 我們就生一大堆人人說台灣都給你啊 但是你就沒死 要怎麼樣"},{"start":527.626,"end":556.001,"text":"是我們的問題嗎 還是你的問題所以我們希望我們的讓我們新住民在台灣有保障生活他們的小孩未來是你們的媳婦你們的女婿但是我們在台灣的年輕人如何讓他們有生活保障對不對 工作環境也好有經濟收入可以養父母又養雙方的父母"},{"start":557.432,"end":578.618,"text":"四個老人都養不起了再來說你孩子沒孝因為沒孝大家都沒孝沒人沒養老大人自己都賺沒辦法養老大人所以我們希望我們讓我們年輕人無負擔他們才能結婚生子台灣才有未來"},{"start":579.898,"end":586.54,"text":"可以做得到嗎謝謝委員 這我們行政院各部會會繼續來努力國發會要去整合各部會要把一些錢要花在道口上我們讓我們國家發展我們要讓我們的人口增加希望我們國發會有具體的策略真正的幫助到我們台灣"},{"start":605.204,"end":615.989,"text":"少子化還有讓我們年輕人可以掙扎我們的人口這個就是希望我國會給我們具體的計畫送到我的辦公室以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1780,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（13時33分）謝謝主席。有請國發會。"],["主席：請國發會謝處長。"],["謝處長佳宜：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。我想請教一下，依據國發會的人口推估報告，我國總人口到2070年時會剩下1,497萬人，大幅減少840萬人，而臺灣今年65歲的老年人口比例已經超過20%，進入超高齡社會，你覺得這樣會有國安危機嗎？還有，日本在2023年已經成立兒童家庭廳統整因應少子化政策，請問國發會的少子化辦公室是不是可以提升為委員會等級？國發會的看法與態度又如何？還是不要提升服務功能，只要增加預算就好？"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝委員的關心。其實在整體行政院的分工上面，目前少子化議題已經提高到行政院層級，由政務委員統籌督導相關權責部會，包括今天出席的衛福部、教育部、勞動部，甚至內政部等相關部會……"],["麥委員玉珍：好、很好，但是效率呢？效率在哪裡？"],["謝處長佳宜：其實……"],["麥委員玉珍：不要人口推估嚇死人，處理少子化卻多不到半個人，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝委員……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們要的是效果。我們目的是要提升，但效果或策略是什麼？我們想看到的是這個。"],["謝處長佳宜：報告委員，誠如今天各部會所提出來的，其實我們從107年就開始推動少子女化對策計畫。這個計畫是統合各部會的相關努力，然後共同推動……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是與OECD各國相比，我國人口策略中對育兒的支持規模明顯不足，所以國發會的人口策略白皮書是否考慮納入這點？還有，我國家庭政策與托育系統的具體指標，我們也沒有看到。或者，改善幼兒園推動委員會由國發會擔任統整的平臺，有嗎？有這樣的策略嗎？還是只上升到行政院等級，但實際上沒半招？"],["謝處長佳宜：報告委員，目前確實還是由行政院來督導，而行政院在這部分除了政委以外，相關對策、計畫的執行、檢討其實還會再上報到院長主持的社福推動委員會，是行政院整體的……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們要的是方法！所以不只是開會，否則開到愈開愈不會，我們不是要這樣。我們要有具體的策略，才能真正地減輕少子化問題，而不只是提升等級。國發會是可以統整的啊，不是只跟行政院開會而已，這部分我們希望有具體的策略、方案讓人民看到。現在年輕人在少子化下、又看到你們這樣的評估，嚇都嚇死了，還有誰要生小孩？我們要怎麼減輕少子化？除了要減少經濟壓力，還要讓年輕人真正地覺得有希望！要有希望、生活過得好、生小孩才可以養得起啊！但是目前的策略就讓年輕人覺得無望，所以為什麼要生？對嗎？也因此少子化就變成我們的國安問題，不然要叫老人去當兵保衛國家，有可能嗎？對吧？","雖然國發會也有一些策略，要讓更多外來人口進來讀書、增加學校的學生，但這樣有沒有解決臺灣人口的問題？我認為應該把這些費用用在臺灣的人口問題上，讓我們的年輕人、小孩子讀書不用錢，而不是把人民的納稅錢拿去補助別人，自己的孩子反而沒人顧，這是策略嗎？這是一時的，治標不治本，對不對？我們希望國發會要整合各個部會，把這些經費給在地年輕人，讓他們結婚、生子，這樣才能鞏固我們臺灣，而不是拿錢解決，就只讓大家看到多少大學不倒，又解決多少企業缺工，但其實都是顧別人的小孩啊！那臺灣的小孩呢？有人顧嗎？我們生小孩什麼事情都要自己顧、自己要出錢，讀書也是靠自己，但現在却討好別人，去國外叫別人來讀書，給他免費、包租包吃，但是我們的小孩呢？誰來包？政府會來包嗎？沒有啊！誰敢生？生了沒人養，自己都肚子餓了，怎麼養小孩，對不對？所以我們希望臺灣要有策略，尤其對我們的年輕人，還要讓大家覺得生小孩不是成為負擔，是為了國家的未來。所以我們希望改善育兒的福利，讓住房是可以負擔的，並改善工作環境，經濟支持要穩定，不然沒錢就會吵架，有錢就沒事，是不是這樣？我們要提高教育預算，還有讓我們的年輕人負擔得起，讓小孩子可以唸書、可以補習，讓他唸好一點的，這樣才對啊，不然錢都給了別人！我們推動移民政策是解決現在的問題，但是未來呢？我們要讓小孩能看到未來，這樣才敢結婚、才敢生子，這個才是我們要做的！不要推估一堆，看到都嚇死了，但是解決少子化卻沒半招！哪天出門都看不到年輕人的話，這樣難道是我們的策略？所以我們要具體的少子化策略，而且是針對我們臺灣的年輕人，如何讓他們敢結婚生子。什麼叫真正的臺灣人？臺灣人都不生，以致別人來這裡生一大堆，雖然臺灣做了一堆，但是臺灣人就是不生，要怎麼辦？是我們的問題嗎？還是你們的問題？所以我們希望讓新住民在臺灣有保障生活，而且他們的小孩未來是你們的媳婦、是你們的女婿；但是在臺灣的年輕人又該如何讓他們有生活保障？工作環境也好，有經濟收入，可以養父母，又能養雙方的父母！否則四個老人都養不起了，再來說生小孩沒用，因為不孝順、都不養長輩。但是自己都賺不夠了，要怎麼養長輩？所以我們希望讓年輕人無負擔，他們才能結婚生子，臺灣才有未來，可以做得到嗎？"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝委員，我們行政院各個部會會繼續努力。"],["麥委員玉珍：國發會要去整合各部會，要把錢花在刀口上，讓我們的國家發展，要讓人口增加。希望國發會有具體的策略，真正的幫助到臺灣少子化問題，讓我們年輕人願意增加人口。希望國發會給我們具體的計畫，並送到我的辦公室，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥委員的一席話，對臺灣付出很大。","接續請陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900cbee612f95ed551c7648dfe0a0275fc53cf129e64e549d199aa7beedfef2e22d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:22:06 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我請勞動部好了勞動部的次長那次長請回好 感謝委員 謝謝次長 那其實除了這個讓我們的父母這個在沒有房租的或是房貸壓力之下有可能會比較願意生小孩那另外一個就是說能夠在生完小孩之後或是生完小孩之前他能夠他的工作不要去受到影響或是說這個"},{"start":221,"end":248.903,"text":"這個比如送完小孩之後回到這個工作崗位上面能夠順利的能夠來接軌我覺得這個也是一個相當重要的那我先請教一下就是說包含本席在內有許多的委員有提到這個性別平等工作法的第15條的修正案就是說我們把這一個賠產產價我們就多了一個叫做這一個生產準備價然後那當然天數也會把它加長那就是說把這一個產情教育把它"},{"start":249.443,"end":264.559,"text":"把它加進去 加進去對 那讓這一個這個爸爸或媽媽他們能夠在這一個準備生產的時候有更多的這一個生產的一些知識或教育在那請問一下次長你們對於這個修法的內容看法怎麼樣"},{"start":266.694,"end":289.591,"text":"這個部分確實是外界很關注的議題那我們覺得這個就像委員剛剛講的如果能夠這樣做確實能夠幫助讓它能夠銜接起來讓這個新手爸媽的育兒那現在才七天嘛那我看很多的委員的提案大概就是會增加天數啦那一樣也是有心的啦那有沒有辦法就是說我們往這個方向來做修法"},{"start":290.694,"end":297.023,"text":"如果是涉及有薪的話老實說就涉及到裁員的問題那有薪才有這個誘因沒有薪就沒有誘因了"},{"start":301.669,"end":326.221,"text":"這個如果是老實說因為我們台灣98%左右都是中小企業那雇主這邊的負擔會加重那雇主他們是不是他們的財務問題也要考量那如果是由政府來支出那政府目前委員都知道我們現在政府今年因為大院這個審查預算還有財劃法的關係這個部分政府可預期然後這個裁員可能會不是那麼"},{"start":326.681,"end":355.238,"text":"那當然這有部分啦一個是財化法的關係那預算可能會少然後另外一個就是說預算有減少但是我是認為啦就是說既然少子化已經是一個國安的一個問題了那如何用這個政府有限的資源裡面讓這個父母能夠願意去生小孩那是最重要的不然我們今天談了這麼多題目如果最後都是歸結到說政府的經費不夠那如果這樣子的話那其實什麼問題都不用談就回到原點了嘛那出生率就越來越往下降了啦"},{"start":355.999,"end":372.718,"text":"這是一個我是希望說你們能夠就很多的立委所提案的這部分這個生產準備價來做個考量那當然是有心的那另外一個就是說韓信的育嬰留職停薪去年下半年有試辦了那現在試辦的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":373.559,"end":402.1,"text":"已經結束了嘛對不對結束了我們已經透過找示範單位來諮詢作者還有問卷調查還有去拜訪民間托育團體我們已經把資料大概收整到接近關於結束就是說彈性現在本來是一個月那現在就是說五天到七天那我說接下來我不曉得示範你覺得示範的情況是怎麼樣那接下來有沒有機會就是說我們這個彈性的運營價可以改成日"},{"start":403.527,"end":413.872,"text":"各位所以我們先前我有講我們正在內部通盤檢討希望能夠朝向更彈性的方向來規劃更彈性就是日了嘛因為現在是月啊那就是日啊是不是"},{"start":414.9,"end":437.981,"text":"這個都在我們的考量評估中因為這也是一個方式因為就是說我可以請我沒有想要小時那個小時就我覺得可能會比較複雜一點點就是說日那至少日我可以讓很多家長他可以說今天臨時有什麼事情了小孩子生病或什麼之類的我可以很彈性的說我都了解好不好因為這個東西既然有事辦了要有一個結果出來"},{"start":438.621,"end":456.241,"text":"那預計哪時候會有一個結果出來那是不是可以更彈性往日月方面做調整大概哪時候會有一個結果出來我們也希望盡快但是要配合剛講的暈流停之路要修法整體來作業這樣子我們希望盡快好那抱歉主席我再用一點時間有沒有教育部"},{"start":457.566,"end":481.651,"text":"國教署今天有副署長來我來問一下就是說現在這個幼保畢業生大概只有15%願意進入職場所以說這個也造成了另外一個問題就是說我們要降低師生比到1比12這兩個是環環相扣的你們怎麼去增加就是說這個幼保的畢業生他願意來進入這個幼保的這個領域"},{"start":485.06,"end":513.773,"text":"好那跟委員報告就是他問題在哪裡就是說比如說他是薪資的問題那還是說這個他們沒有辦法有這個9任獎金的問題好跟委員先報告一下如果是在職前的部分培育那除了目前其實不管是教保員的培育應該是夠的那但是教師可能是比較需要再做協助那我們國教署跟部裡面的私知師有合作所以呢為了要將生死比"},{"start":514.173,"end":533.889,"text":"那有協助我們多培育老師跟教保員的部分就是說他有教保的有專業但是他不願意當教保員那進到職場的部分我們目前在做因為我們在擴大公共化的時候其實也會增加我們這些公部門禁用教保服務人員那另外來講我們要合作準公共"},{"start":534.329,"end":555.199,"text":"那總公共的部分我們的合作要件裡頭也把那個基本工資的部分如果是新三年以下在今年也幫他們調升到四萬兩千多三萬四千兩百多那如果說他今天是六年以上也大概到四萬多所以我們會變成從公共跟總公共的部分來調整薪資"},{"start":557.28,"end":569.071,"text":"讓更多的夥伴願意進來那再來是調降生思比的部分會讓他們進到職場的工作負擔為稍微有一些緩解所以目前在公立公共化幼兒園到目前為止也有86%的幼兒園已經達到1比12"},{"start":573.215,"end":601.752,"text":"那今年8月也希望所有公共化的幼兒園可以達成那總公共呢從去年開始加入之後今年也會開始進入調降升師比也會希望在115年達成所以透過新資的引導以及職場裡頭那對於他服務學生的人數的降低那希望對他們的工作負擔可以有所緩解以上我再問最後一個問題現在這個准公幼的教保人員跟這個非立幼兒園的教保人員薪資有一樣嗎"},{"start":603.486,"end":618.711,"text":"呃準工跟呃非是不太一樣吼那因為非營利幼兒園幾乎也是等於政府自己呃在經營的概念吼那雖然他是由民間團體共同來合作那他不會有盈餘全部都是以成本計價"},{"start":619.771,"end":646.048,"text":"那總工的部分因為它是屬於私人的它財務部分並不是我們在做相關的處理那我們唯一的是訂定了這些要件那它不能低於這些要件可以訂得更高會不會有同工不同仇的這一個現象因為它畢竟是在私人經營我們訂的是要跟我們合作的時候你的薪資一定要達到多少以上但是除了我們訂的以上之外我們希望這些業者 僱主"},{"start":646.488,"end":668.232,"text":"能夠自己也可以再調高所以透過這個機制來託助會不會老師就跑掉了到目前看起來是還好因為有在關注那個流動力的問題只是他們如果說找不到新的這些夥伴們剛有跟委員報告是獅子醫教師也共同協助我們在座人員的培育好那以上先這樣問問這樣子就好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1721,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（13時22分）謝謝主席。請呂次長。"],["主席：請呂次長。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：今天這個題目很大，其實也討論了很久，但是我們的出生率好像也不見提高。雖然政府也很努力、做了很多政策，不管是在公幼、公托上或給予父母親津貼上的補助，可是龍年的生育率還是往下降！就你的部分來講，你覺得有什麼是有急迫性、可以做的，可以現在做處理、讓出生率可以提高？"],["呂次長建德：現在、馬上的話，老實說，今天聽下來，我覺得林淑芬委員所提的社會住宅，我老實說啦！當然這不是我的權責……"],["李委員坤城：是，沒關係。"],["呂次長建德：現在最有感的，可能確實是社會住宅打五折。然後我們訴求一點，叫做親子住宅，讓在那裡面的托育完全採一條龍服務。我跟委員報告，我以前在德國讀書，德國都市裡確實有家庭宿舍，就是給年輕的大學生。沒問題啊！除了單身之外，結婚的學生也有家庭宿舍。然後學校裡面有KITA，就是kindergarten，就在學校附近，我認為其實這是一個最好的設計。當然我這樣講，董次長可能會……"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，雖然這算內政部的業務，但你也能以一個學者的身分說明一下。","我看到政府其實有滿多政策，不過你也點到，其實住的壓力、房租的壓力、買房的壓力，的確讓很多人在結婚之後覺得如果要生小孩，自己卻有付房租、房貸等這麼多壓力的話，有可能生小孩的念頭就會打消了。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：這當然是很重要的因素，如果父母願意生小孩，而且是在沒有房租、房貸壓力的情況之下，或許生小孩的慾望或意念就會提高了啦！"],["呂次長建德：對、沒錯。委員，我跟您簡單報告一下，據我所知，在林口國宅，我上次有跟董建宏次長去那邊……"],["李委員坤城：那邊是將選手村改成社宅！"],["呂次長建德：對、沒錯。我跟委員報告，那邊嬰兒出生率確實比較高。我沒有實際的數據，但在年輕人大量進駐後，我聽那邊的住戶說，大概都生兩胎、生兩個小朋友。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就是因為社會住宅租金上比較便宜嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對，所以我的意思是純粹就……"],["李委員坤城：但很可惜，今天沒有內政部代表來，主要就是你們衛福部跟勞動部。","我再請教一下勞動部次長。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：次長請回。","李次長，其實除了父母在沒有房租或房貸壓力之下有可能比較願意生小孩，另外一點就是在生完小孩之後或是生完小孩之前，他的工作能夠不要受到影響，或是生完小孩之後、回到工作崗位上能夠順利接軌，我覺得這也是相當重要的。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["李委員坤城：我先請教一下：包含本席在內，很多委員都提到性別平等工作法第十五條的修正案，就是除了陪產假、產假之外，又多了一種生產準備假。當然天數也會加長，就是要把產前教育加進去，讓爸爸或媽媽能夠在準備生產的時候有更多生產的知識或教育在。請問一下次長，你們對於這個修法內容看法怎麼樣？"],["李次長健鴻：這個部分確實是外界很關注的議題。就像委員剛剛講的，如果能夠這樣做，確實能夠幫助他們銜接起來，讓新手爸媽的育兒……"],["李委員坤城：現在才7天嘛！"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["李委員坤城：我看了很多委員的提案，大概就是會增加天數，也一樣是有薪的，有沒有辦法往這個方向修法？"],["李次長健鴻：有薪的話，老實說就涉及財源問題。"],["李委員坤城：當然，但有薪才有誘因啊！沒有薪就沒有誘因了啊！"],["李次長健鴻：老實說，因為臺灣98%左右的雇主都是中小企業，這樣雇主的負擔會加重，所以是不是他們的財務問題也要考量？如果是由政府來支出，那政府目前……委員都知道，政府今年因為大院審查預算還有財劃法的關係，可預期這部分財源可能不是那麼理想。"],["李委員坤城：當然這是一部分，一是基於財劃法的關係，預算可能會少；另外一個原因就是預算減少。但是我認為既然少子化已經是一個國安問題了，那如何從政府有限的資源裡面讓父母願意生小孩？這是最重要的！不然我們今天談了那麼多題目，如果最後都歸結到政府的經費不夠，那其實什麼問題都不用談，就回到原點了，出生率就會愈來愈往下降了，這是一個。我是希望你們能夠就很多立委提案的生產準備假做考量，而且當然是有薪的。","另外一點是彈性育嬰留職停薪去年下半年試辦了，那現在試辦的成效怎麼樣？結束了對不對？"],["李次長健鴻：結束了，我們已經透過找試辦單位來諮詢座談、問卷調查，還有拜訪民間托育團體，把資料大概蒐整到接近結束。"],["李委員坤城：彈性期間本來是1個月，現在則是說5天到7天。接下來呢？不曉得你覺得試辦的情況怎麼樣？接下來有沒有機會將彈性育嬰假的單位改成日？"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，我先前有講，我們正在做內部通盤檢討，希望能夠朝向更彈性的方向來規劃。"],["李委員坤城：更彈性就是算日了！因為現在就是算月，那就是考量日了，是不是？"],["李次長健鴻：這都在我們的考量評估中。"],["李委員坤城：這也是一個方式！因為我們可以請……我沒有想用小時，因為我覺得那可能比較複雜一點點，所以就談日。如果改為日，至少很多家長在小孩子臨時有什麼事情發生時，例如生病之類的，可以很彈性地運用啦！"],["李次長健鴻：是，沒有錯，這些我們都了解。"],["李委員坤城：好不好？這個東西既然試辦了，就要有結果出來。預計哪時候會有結果？是不是可以更彈性、往日這方面作調整？大概哪時候會有結果出來？"],["李次長健鴻：我們也希望儘快，但是這要配合剛剛講的，包括育嬰留停制度要修法等整體作業，我們希望儘快。"],["李委員坤城：好。","抱歉，主席，我再用一點時間。有沒有教育部國教署官員？今天有副署長來？現在幼保畢業生大概只有15%願意進入職場，所以也造成另一個問題受影響，就是要降低生師比到1比12。這兩個問題是環環相扣的，你們怎麼增加幼保畢業生、使他願意進入幼保領域？"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員報告……"],["李委員坤城：就是問題在哪裡？比如說是薪資問題，還是他們沒辦法有久任獎金的問題？"],["許副署長麗娟：先跟委員報告一下，如果是在職前培育部分，目前教保員的培育應該是夠的，對教師可能比較需要再作協助。我們國教署跟部裡面的師資司合作，為了降生師比，師資司有協助我們處理多培育老師跟教保員的部分。"],["李委員坤城：不，他有教保的專業，但是不願意當教保員啊，問題在哪裡？"],["許副署長麗娟：進到職場的部分，我們目前在做，因為在擴大公共化的時候其實也會增加公部門進用教保服務人員。另外，我們有合作準公共幼兒園。在準公共的合作要件裡頭，基本工資部分，如果是3年以下，今年也幫他們調升到三萬四千兩百多元，如果是6年以上，大概也到四萬多元，所以變成從公共跟準公共部分調整薪資，讓更多夥伴願意進來。","再來是調降生師比的部分，會讓他們進到職場的工作負擔稍微有些緩解，所以公共化幼兒園到目前為止已經有86%達到1比12，今年8月希望所有公共化幼兒園都可以達成。準公共幼兒園從去年加入之後，今年也會開始調降生師比，希望在115年達成。所以，透過薪資的引導以及職場裡頭將他們服務的學生人數降低，希望他們的工作負擔可以有所緩解。以上。"],["李委員坤城：我再問最後一個問題：現在準公幼的教保人員跟非營利幼兒園的教保人員薪資一樣嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：準公幼跟非營利幼兒園不太一樣，因為非營利幼兒園幾乎也等於政府自己經營的概念。雖然它是由民間團體共同合作，但不會有盈餘，而是全部以成本計價。準公幼因為屬於私人，財務部分並不是我們在做相關處理，我們唯一做的是訂定這些要件，而它不能低於這些要件，但可以訂得更高。"],["李委員坤城：這樣會不會有同工不同酬的現象？"],["許副署長麗娟：它畢竟是私人經營，我們訂的條件是在跟我們合作的時候，薪資一定要達到多少以上。但是除了條件達到我們所定以上之外，我們也希望這些業者、雇主能夠自己再調高，透過這個機制來做……"],["李委員坤城：這樣準公托的老師會不會就跑掉了？"],["許副署長麗娟：目前看起來是還好，我們有關注流動率的問題。只是如果他們找不到新的夥伴，如我剛剛跟委員報告的，師資司有共同協助我們做人員的培育。以上。"],["李委員坤城：好，以上，先問這樣就好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員、謝謝次長。","接續請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90081031ac4cd4f81f62ba64e6561398ad03cf129e64e549d19c7ca98e9358032305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:13:40 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謝謝主席喔 麻煩我們那個陳代理主委請主委文豪好 謝謝 謝謝我們陳代理主委喔那先請教一下代理主委啊 說文解釋一下啦喔 這個緊鑼密鼓是什麼意思啊這個剛剛可能我有 也有問到 這個緊鑼密鼓對你的對你對中文的理解 緊鑼密鼓大概是怎樣的一個狀態"},{"start":31.782,"end":56.497,"text":"中文上一般通念上是認為就是加快節奏加快節奏嘛那這個我們的院長從去年的11月底就說在緊鑼密鼓的徵詢我們的委員嘛對不對那目前這個已經過了四五個月了嘛好像大家對於這個緊鑼密鼓的解讀不太一樣啦那我想確認一下我們的這個委員徵詢啊"},{"start":57.538,"end":78.448,"text":"是院這邊決定就好還是院有交辦我們NCC去徵詢人員各位您報告在依組織法的規定這是行政院的職權行政院的職權所以在院長這個徵詢的這個階段我們目前我們的NCC並沒有接收到任何的一個行政院來的一個諮詢"},{"start":80.285,"end":106.93,"text":"對這一部分NCC沒有角色沒有沒有吧那您也沒有您有沒有主動去提問過因為你們可能在業務上也有說你們可能遭遇了一些困難你們有沒有主動的去跟行政院去請教一下相關的進度這樣子我們有私底下有在體系內行政體系內有跟相關的長官有反應過有反應過那他是怎麼跟您做說明的"},{"start":107.762,"end":120.982,"text":"大致就是說就是 警農密鼓就一規定處理就是一規定處理所以說你自己目前這邊也完全是沒有相關的一個棲身表嗎對我這邊沒有角色也也沒有吳總長吳崇智希"},{"start":121.425,"end":140.92,"text":"好我想這個分層分層啦我尊重啦你的權限不到或許你們就沒有辦法決定啦不過我相信啦這個大家有說六月多可能有一些換照的問題啦我相信喔這個可能華市啊台市啊中市等等換照可能對你們來說無關痛癢那我相信可能三立民司要換照的時候你們就會很快的去補足了啦"},{"start":141.5,"end":166.721,"text":"不過我們都一視同仁一視同仁好謝謝我們主委那另外我請教一下我們最近NCC這個是不是有發函去給中廣去詢問部分的主持人可能是這個王淺秋啊還是歷史哥啊去詢問為什麼他們的相關的節目的來賓可能對他們來說就是對你們來說都是偏藍的一個政治色彩背景的這個訪談人員有沒有發這樣子的函"},{"start":170.948,"end":182.39,"text":"基本上我們都尊重新聞媒體的編輯自由理應上我們應該是不會來介入的那這邊細節我們是所以我要確認有沒有確認有沒有我們請我們林處長來補充不好意思我可能要確認一下不過如果是有的話應該是民眾的意見我們轉達而已我們不會問這個部分說他的來賓是不是有政治色彩"},{"start":194.946,"end":223.505,"text":"那如果你幫他問一定是可能他涉及到了某些規定的可能不符合我們NCC的規定你才去問他嘛你也不會無緣無故民眾你會去函詢他說你今天中餐是什麼嗎這有關你的業務嘛一定是有關你的業務你才會去詢問嘛是這樣就民眾的可能對於節目有一些內容的表達那我們是想把民眾的意見轉資給電台而已好所以你們就是轉資所以他回不回你有沒有關係沒有關係"},{"start":225.006,"end":229.413,"text":"民眾如果請他要回覆可能就是電台這部分就要回覆給當事呃陳情人這樣子他不回覆會怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":233.951,"end":255.718,"text":"不過因為電視或者是廣播你們鼓勵他回覆啦應該是這樣講啦沒有強制性啦客服跟這個閱聽眾的服務啦好所以就是這個廣電媒體就相關邀約的來賓都是充分尊重是的尊重他們那如果說民眾陳情的話那你們就韓轉他是同意由電視台或是廣播電台來回覆的話我們會轉給電視台或是廣播來回覆你們就是單純韓轉但是可能"},{"start":259.919,"end":287.981,"text":"裡面可能並沒有涉及到相關的NCC的電信或是媒體相關的法令除非他有違反譬如說是節目廣告的話或者是工序欄署等等那常常是後續的依照相關的程序來處理可是如果是單單的對於主持人的一些意見或是來賓的身份你們是充分的尊重是是是好 謝謝那這樣子我也相信我們後續就是依照這樣子的相關規定也讓他們收到可能公漢的人能夠了解一下好 謝謝"},{"start":291.093,"end":311.756,"text":"再回顧一下當初我們這個750元之亂那當然其實有人說當初也有這個公告嘛那其實我也承認啦那時候其實立法院確實沒有注意到我們大部分的委員是沒有注意到我們海巡那最後上路的時候確實也造成了這個社會的一片這個反韓的聲浪那我們也後續也調整了啦"},{"start":312.136,"end":319.578,"text":"那我那時候有跟主委談論到說因為我們收到這筆錢假設上路之後收到750你們的說法是說我們的同仁的業務量增加嘛對不對那但是我們收到的這筆錢卻不能夠去徵聘人員你們也不能拿來自己用你們當初的說法是這樣子依照預算法應該也是這個到國庫去統籌分配嘛所以說收了這一筆錢他並沒有辦法這個減緩我們同仁的工作壓力"},{"start":342.225,"end":362.908,"text":"他可能最大的一個功能就是以價自量我把單價提高了那你可能就是相對起來民眾進來這個網購通訊產品的數量可能會因此減少而間接減少我們工作的這個同仁的工作量我想如果說真的要有什麼效果的話就是這樣子而已啦"},{"start":363.208,"end":385.006,"text":"那我看我們同仁也是否認這樣子的一個說法那所以說我們做的這件事情完全也沒有辦法達到我們的一個目的嘛所以說當初討論說後續是不是由我們NCC來跟行政院來爭取預算來可能增加我們電腦設備一些審核的機制那我們後續的實際上做法有沒有在進行當中"},{"start":387.308,"end":405.778,"text":"跟委員回應報告大概幾點第一點就是我們依據我們組織法我們收到的一些規費會有14%會轉到我們通常基金去那邊大概就會有一小部分的可以處理那另外一個角度來看也是跟委員報告過用大水庫的概念我們在115年有編相關的預算來處理這一塊那如果說國庫"},{"start":410.521,"end":430.639,"text":"就是是人員的增編嗎?還是我們可能系統的一些協助我們的人員?系統協助系統的人員嘛,所以我們有編到115的預算那如果立法院通過的話,我們同仁的工作壓力就可以減輕那未來可能這個民眾持續在做相關的網購的時候我們也不會再想要再用這個增加這個規費的方式來做一個行政處分嘛對不對?"},{"start":434.716,"end":460.107,"text":"是的 我們會加速 未來希望能夠加速審查這方面來講所以我當初就有 也是跟那天我們的溝通是非常愉快嘛我們希望說 既然國家已經收過錢了我們關這個貨物進來 海關會收一次錢 處理費那也會超過2000元 也會有相關的稅金那如果說真的我們的NCC在業務上遇到了一些壓力 增加壓力的時候 那應該是從"},{"start":461.67,"end":491.145,"text":"我們已經收到的錢這一邊去調配給我們NCC讓我們NCC有更大的量能來處理我們民眾的這個可能檢驗的一個需求那所以後續我們的所有可能長期以來有在這個自用啦當然商用的部分當然這是另外一回事嘛商用的部分就是必須要這個繳交相關的規費那自用的部分我們後續應該就是沒有任何的計畫會跟民眾來收錢我可以這樣子理解嗎謝謝委員委員剛剛的說也是我們現在未來處理的方向之一"},{"start":491.485,"end":492.432,"text":"好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":655,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝陳代理主委。先請教一下代理主委，請你說文解字一下，「緊鑼密鼓」是什麼意思？這個剛剛可能也有委員問到，就你對中文的理解，「緊鑼密鼓」大概是怎樣的一個狀態？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在中文一般通念上是認為就是加快節奏。"],["廖委員先翔：加快節奏嘛。行政院長從去年的11月底就說在緊鑼密鼓地徵詢NCC的委員，對不對？到目前已經過了四、五個月了，好像大家對於「緊鑼密鼓」的解讀不太一樣。我想確認一下，委員徵詢是院這邊決定就好，還是院有交辦NCC去徵詢人員？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，依組織法的規定，這是行政院的職權。"],["廖委員先翔：行政院的職權，所以在院長徵詢的這個階段，目前我們NCC並沒有接收到任何一個來自行政院的諮詢嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，這個部分NCC沒有角色。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有嘛，那您有沒有主動去提問過？因為在業務上你們也有說你們可能遭遇了一些困難，你們有沒有主動去跟行政院請教一下相關的進度？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們私底下在行政體系內跟相關的長官有反映過。"],["廖委員先翔：有反映過，那他是怎麼跟您說明的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：大致是說就是依……"],["廖委員先翔：緊鑼密鼓？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是依規定處理。"],["廖委員先翔：就是依規定處理，所以說你自己目前這邊也完全沒有相關的期程表嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，我這邊沒有角色，也無從知悉。"],["廖委員先翔：好，這是分層，我尊重，你的權限不到，或許你們就沒有辦法決定，不過，大家有說6月多可能有一些換照的問題，我相信或許華視、臺視、中視等等要換照，對你們來說可能無關痛癢，但我相信可能三立、民視要換照的時候，你們就會很快地去補足了啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不會，我們都一視同仁。"],["廖委員先翔：一視同仁喔？好，謝謝我們主委。","另外請教一下，最近NCC是不是有發函給中廣，詢問部分的主持人，可能是王淺秋還是歷史哥，詢問為什麼他們相關節目訪談的來賓，對你們來說都是偏藍的政治色彩背景的人，有沒有發這樣子的函？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：基本上我們都尊重新聞媒體的編輯自由，理論上我們應該是不會介入的，細節部分我們是……"],["廖委員先翔：我要先確認有沒有，請確認有沒有。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：請我們林處長來補充。"],["林處長慧玲：不好意思，我可能要確認一下，不過如果有的話，應該是民眾的意見我們轉達而已，我們不會問這個部分，問他的來賓是不是有政治色彩。"],["廖委員先翔：如果你幫民眾問，一定是可能他涉及不符合某些NCC的規定，你才會去問他嘛，你也不會無緣無故去問，不然你會去函詢問他說，你今天中餐吃什麼嗎？這無關你的業務嘛！一定是有關你的業務，你才會去詢問嘛。"],["林處長慧玲：是這樣，可能民眾對於節目的內容有一些意見表達，我們是想把民眾的意見轉知給電臺而已，沒有詢問……"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以你們就是轉知？"],["林處長慧玲：對對，應該是……"],["廖委員先翔：所以他回不回你，有沒有關係？"],["林處長慧玲：沒有關係的……"],["廖委員先翔：沒有關係嘛！"],["林處長慧玲：但是民眾如果請他要回復，可能電臺這部分就要回復給陳情人這樣子。"],["廖委員先翔：他不回復會怎麼樣嗎？"],["林處長慧玲：不過因為電視或者是廣播……"],["廖委員先翔：你們鼓勵他回復啦！應該是這樣講啦，沒有強制性啦！"],["林處長慧玲：都有客服跟閱聽眾的服務啦。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以你們對廣電媒體邀約來賓都是充分尊重，尊重他們？"],["林處長慧玲：這個是尊重，是的。"],["廖委員先翔：如果有民眾陳情的話，那你們就函轉喔？"],["林處長慧玲：如果民眾同意由電視臺或是廣播電臺來回復的話，我們會轉給電視臺或是廣播來回復。"],["廖委員先翔：你們就是單純函轉，其中可能並沒有涉及到相關的NCC的電信或者是媒體相關的法令嘛？"],["林處長慧玲：除非他有違反譬如說節目廣告化或者是公序良俗等等，那後續才會依照相關的程序來處理，如果單單是對於主持人的一些意見，其實沒有違法或……"],["廖委員先翔：或是來賓的身分？"],["林處長慧玲：對，身分，這個我們會轉過去。"],["廖委員先翔：你們是充分地尊重？"],["林處長慧玲：是是是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。我也相信後續就是依照這樣子的相關規定，也讓他們收到公函的能夠了解一下。好，謝謝。","再回顧一下當初的750元之亂，有人說當初也有公告，我也承認那時候其實立法院確實沒有注意，我們大部分的委員是沒有注意到我們的函詢，最後上路的時候確實也造成社會一片反彈的聲浪，那我們後續也調整了。那時候我有跟主委討論到說，因為我們收到這筆錢，假設上路之後收到750，你們的說法是我們同仁的業務量增加嘛，對不對？但是我們收到的這筆錢卻不能夠去增聘人員，你們也不能拿來自己用，你們當初的說法是這樣子，依照預算法應該也是解繳到國庫去統籌分配嘛。所以，收了這一筆錢並沒有辦法減緩我們同仁的工作壓力，可能最大的一個功能就是以價制量，我把單價提高了，相對起來民眾網購進來的通訊產品的數量可能會因此減少，進而間接減少我們同仁的工作量。我想如果真的要有什麼效果的話，就是這樣而已，我看我們同仁也是否認這樣一個說法，等於我們做的這件事情完全沒有辦法達到我們的目的嘛，所以當初我們討論後續是不是由NCC來跟行政院爭取預算，是不是可能增加電腦設備的一些審核機制，請教後續的作法有沒有在進行當中？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告以下幾點：第一，依據我們組織法，我們收到的一些規費會有14%會轉到我們通傳基金去，那邊大概就會有一小部分可以處理。另外一個角度來看，也是跟委員報告過的，就是用大水庫的概念，我們在115年有編相關的預算來處理這一塊，如果說……"],["廖委員先翔：資通訊嗎？是人員的增編嗎？還是系統方面的一些協助人員？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：系統人員。"],["廖委員先翔：系統人員嘛，所以我們有編到115年的預算，如果立法院通過的話，我們同仁的工作壓力就可以減輕，未來民眾持續在做相關網購的時候，你們也不會想用增加規費的方式來做行政處分嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，我們會加速，希望未來能夠加速審查這方面來做進步。"],["廖委員先翔：那天我們的溝通也是非常愉快嘛，就是既然國家已經收過錢了，貨物進來海關會收一次錢，就是處理費，超過2,000元也會有相關的稅金，如果NCC在業務上真的遇到一些壓力，增加壓力的時候，那應該是從已經收到的錢這一邊去調配給NCC，讓NCC有更大的量能來處理民眾檢驗的需求。所以後續對於所有長期以來自用這個部分，當然商用是另外一回事嘛，商用的部分就必須要繳交相關的規費，那自用的部分後續應該沒有任何計畫會跟民眾收錢，我可以這樣子理解嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員，委員剛剛的說明也是我們未來處理的方向之一。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接續請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9008455fd5eb7f7e2af2ba64e6561398ad03cf129e64e549d194001ca9689ad817b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:33:43 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49 50 51 52 53 54全部都是"},{"start":138.988,"end":167.366,"text":"沒有講反對黨一句好話的從頭到尾政論節目沒有講一句好話的我們的文化部我們AG還要補助他們AG有沒有補助我是不知道啦還要補助電視台耶這什麼話嘛你說說看啦有些基金是要給公司文化基金沒有道理的事情嘛是不是然後呢現在你們在打詐那不實的新聞報導是不是也是詐騙之一"},{"start":168.7,"end":196.312,"text":"也是詐騙之一啊早上黃國昌主席也有問啊是不是你問三立三立說民視那邊民視說有哪個委員講的又放的話隨便路人講路人語都可以引述嘛你們不用去查證嗎你們不要去那個嗎然後中間一點小小的事情就把人家關台你要關掉好幾台啦是不是只關中間這一台嗎你們為什麼不關"},{"start":197.455,"end":226.295,"text":"跟委員報告這是兩個部分第一部分新聞台的我們尊重他們的言論自由跟憲法上保障的以及遍及自由那如果他有違法的話我們會再憑證換照理來處理現在都是講憲法保障啦保障什麼你保障他們的自由啊有保障人民的自由嗎他要講什麼就講什麼啊是不是他怎麼講都可以啊無中生有對不對沒有了可以把它變成有就這樣子吧"},{"start":227.981,"end":253.067,"text":"你不要看市井小民心中有一把尺,心中有一把尺你知道嗎你以為你們報導了人家就聽進去了,不是這樣你們NC要保持行政中立你今天一直講說預算把你刪掉了為什麼刪掉,你為什麼不去查一下原因今天主委拜訪了我好幾次"},{"start":254.468,"end":268.135,"text":"我當然我可以講話,我可以幫你講話,但是不是這樣嘛你們委員啊,大家摸摸良心好不好,摸摸良心啊你不要這樣拿著政治來整人,不好啦我看不下去了,我很少這樣子講話的好,你現在這些業者6月30號要換照,多少家?"},{"start":279.577,"end":281.739,"text":"37家又4家又25家到6月30號怎麼辦無電視可看然後甩鍋給立法院是不是這樣子"},{"start":288.998,"end":311.74,"text":"我們大概會做兩個措施第一個我們告訴要換發執照的廣電業者做個觀念通知欄說你們的申請換照目前進度到哪邊間接是表示說你們沒有故意過失然後也告訴他上架的平台說請平台要尊重收視聽眾的權益以及公共利益為優先考量"},{"start":312.341,"end":340.287,"text":"那如果有些電視你要下架基本頻道的話你要幫NCC核准NCC的核准必須要經過委員會議那現在NCC沒辦法組成委員會議好你也沒辦法組成委員會議那又是誰又是立法院的問題囉不是都剛好你們送來的人你要保持一點中立吧對不對你當藍白是烏龜啊是傻瓜嗎你送來的都是綠的又不獨立的不中立的"},{"start":342.093,"end":361.068,"text":"你叫立法院怎麼讓你通過嘛是不是提名的部分那現在已經四個月了行政院還沒送來行政院有送來嗎已經四個月了咧那麼難找啊那你不送來到六月底的時候怎麼辦全部停啊全部停擺NCE有沒有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":362.732,"end":387.201,"text":"就是我們會請平臺人那邊要尊重收聽眾的權益跟公共利益的維繫然後也告知換照的業者關聯通知間接告知說我們換照的案件申請的進度到目前為止的進度也告訴他讓他知道說 逐漬證明說他目前為止沒有故意過死你們有你們的法寶"},{"start":388.681,"end":416.558,"text":"也不一定要委員會通過啦你在委員會都沒有壓力嗎行政院都不要送名單來嗎你不要甩鍋給立法院啦我先跟你講這邊警告另外二號海欄跟三號海欄中斷你們查證一下嘛不要第一時間就甩給中共是不是我去查證的結果沒有這回事嘛就在我們淡水的外海嘛然後呢速發部NCC說"},{"start":418.083,"end":442.602,"text":"因為立法院砍我們的預算我們沒有錢去把海嵐修復有這回事嗎海嵐目前不管是國內國際都是規劃為CICI目前的主政機關不在NCC那這一部分我們是請業者要尊重這個服務的維繫維繫跟營運計畫的說法不說因為預算被砍沒有錢修復關他屁事啊關你們什麼事"},{"start":444.642,"end":463.88,"text":"中華電信去修的啊,關你們什麼事啊?很奇怪欸你就跳出來說我沒有錢,因為預算被砍了,關你們什麼事?中華電信給錢欸,關你們什麼事你講嗎?沒有道理的事情一大堆啊,詐騙你懂了沒有?這個就叫詐騙了什麼叫詐騙?這不叫詐騙,什麼叫詐騙你講?關你們什麼事啊?"},{"start":467.967,"end":492.639,"text":"你們只是督導單位嘛是不是我們跟數位部就這塊是疊加式的督導講話要誠實嘛是不是你數碼部出了一毛錢嗎NCC出了一毛錢嗎一毛錢都沒出啊在那邊講說預算被砍關你們屁事啊另外請問主委馬祖地區你目前文化節目你們補助了什麼東西你們有變這個預算喔"},{"start":494.962,"end":517.479,"text":"馬祖的有線電視詳通部分,我們有請他來申請,我們還要繼續接下他的意願不是意願,你補助了什麼東西?成果怎麼樣?執行情形怎麼樣?說明一下好不好?兩個單位來說明一下有補助馬祖什麼有關文化的部分,有給你一毛錢嗎?"},{"start":520.854,"end":539.712,"text":"目前報告委員因為我們這個補助案就是說受補助方也要支出所以在因為馬祖祥通他是比較規模小的他營業額比較少所以他也有他的考量所以不要給不是不要給就是說因為他相對也要提好嘛你給了多少錢了嘛"},{"start":541.113,"end":566.845,"text":"我們都有在規劃在...不是規劃,你給了多少錢啊?他沒有來申請到現在給了多少錢啊?他沒有來申請,我們一直跟他協商請他來申請但是因為他要自己要自付一部分的經費,他目前為止都沒來申請他根本都不知道?他們要換照的時候我們都有提醒他,評鑑的時候也有提醒你們那個輔導一下好不好?好沒問題"},{"start":568.619,"end":586.915,"text":"一個禮拜答覆我你們福島的情形怎麼樣?一個禮拜真的要答覆我好不好?你不要說地方小,你一毛錢都不給嘛這有分顏色嗎?沒有沒有有沒有顏色的問題?沒有有藍綠白的問題嗎?沒有,就看有限電視業者他的主動意願好啦,謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":480,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時33分）謝謝召委，是不是請陳代主委？"],["主席：好，陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：主委早。本席第8屆進入立法院就到交通委員會來了，今天站在這邊質詢NCC我感慨萬千，第8屆的時候是國民黨執政，那時候反對黨葉宜津委員一直講說黨政軍退出媒體，退出沒有？後來也退出了，退出以後又換黨執政，我沒想到黨政軍全力、全部進入媒體，全面的介入媒體，中天案目前怎麼樣了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：最新情況是3月6號發回更審。"],["陳委員雪生：又發回更審，你們不是輸了十幾次嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：主訴的部分這一次是NCC……"],["陳委員雪生：什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這一次是發回更審，就是它駁回北高行的判決。"],["陳委員雪生：最後都是駁回嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：還沒終審，就是發回北高行來處理。"],["陳委員雪生：有補救的方式嗎？要等候判決？現在司法已經變成工具了嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：還在訴訟中，我們尊重法院。"],["陳委員雪生：我請問主委，其實我也很同情你的遭遇，我不曉得用同情這個字眼，或是又指責你們，我也不忍，請問NCC保持行政中立嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們都依法行政。"],["陳委員雪生：是嗎？你摸摸自己的良心，我想你們委員都在座，雖然獨立行使職權沒有錯，獨立了嗎？沒有嘛！我很懷念以前的電視節目，像龍兄虎弟，我到現在還在把它翻拍過來看，已經沒電視看了，以前從49台開始，現在48台新聞也來了，48、49、50、51、52、53、54台全部都是，沒有講反對黨一句好話的，從頭到尾政論節目沒有講一句好話的，我們的文化部、我們的NCC還要補助他們，NCC有沒有補助我是不知道啦！還補助電視台耶！這什麼話，你說說看。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有線基金是有給公視文化基金。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有道理的事情嘛！然後現在你們在打詐，不實的新聞報導是不是也是詐騙之一？也是詐騙之一啊！早上黃國昌主席也問了，你問三立，三立說民視那邊，民視說是哪個委員講的，又放話，隨便路人甲、路人乙都可以引述嘛！你們不用去查證嗎？然後中天一點小小的事情，你就把人家關台，你要關掉好幾台啦！是不是？只關中天這一台嗎？你們為什麼不關？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，兩個部分，第一部分，我們尊重新聞台的言論自由以及編輯自由，這是憲法上保障的。如果它有違法的話，我們會在評鑑換照時處理……"],["陳委員雪生：現在都是講憲法保障啦！保障什麼？你保障他們的自由，有保障人民的自由嗎？它愛講什麼就講什麼啊！是不是？它怎麼講都可以啊！無中生有，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：所以我們也促請它……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有的可以把它變成有，就這樣子嘛！市井小民心中有一把尺，我跟你講，他們心中有一把尺，你知道嗎？你以為你們報導，人家就聽進去了？不是這樣子。你們NCC要保持行政中立，你今天一直講說把你的預算刪掉了，你為什麼不去查一下刪掉的原因呢？今天主委也拜訪了我好幾次，我當然可以幫你講話，但不是這樣嘛！你們委員摸摸良心好不好？摸摸良心啊！你不要這樣拿政治來整人，不好啦！我看不下去了！我很少這樣子講話的。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，我們都有要求業者要落實事實查證。"],["陳委員雪生：現在這些業者6月30號要換照，有多少家？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：37家、38張照。"],["陳委員雪生：37家，又4家，又25家，到6月30號怎麼辦？無電視可看，然後甩鍋給立法院，是不是這樣子？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們大概會做兩個措施，第一個，我們告訴要換發執照的廣電業者，發觀念通知函說你們的申請換照目前進度到哪邊，間接表示你們沒有故意過失，然後也告訴他上架的平台，請平台要尊重收視聽眾的權益，以及以公共利益為優先考量，如果有線電視要下架基本頻道的話，要報NCC核准，NCC的核准必須要經過委員會議，但現在NCC沒辦法組成委員會議。"],["陳委員雪生：好，你也沒辦法組成委員會議，那又是誰，又是立法院的問題了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，就剛好這兩個……"],["陳委員雪生：你們送來的人要保持一點中立吧！對不對？你當藍白是烏龜、是傻瓜嗎？你送來的都是綠的，又不獨立、不中立，你叫立法院怎麼讓你通過嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：提名的部分……"],["陳委員雪生：現在已經4個月了，行政院還沒送來，行政院有送來嗎？已經4個月了，那麼難找啊！你不送來，到6月底的時候怎麼辦？全部停擺？NCC有沒有什麼因應的措施？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會請平台要尊重收聽眾的權益跟公共利益的維繫，然後也會告知換照的業者、觀念通知，間接告知說我們換照的案件到目前為止的申請進度，也讓他足資證明他目前為止沒有故意過失。"],["陳委員雪生：你們有你們的法寶，也不一定要委員會通過啦！你在委員會都沒有壓力嗎？行政院都不要送名單來嗎？你不要甩鍋給立法院，我先跟你講，在這邊警告。","另外，二號海纜跟三號海纜中斷，你們查證一下，不要第一時間就甩給中共，我去查證的結果沒有這回事，就在我們淡水的外海。然後數發部、NCC說，因為立法院砍我們的預算，我們沒有錢去把海纜修補。有這回事嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：海纜目前不管是國內、國際都是規劃為CI，目前CI的主政機關不在NCC，這一部分我們是請業者要尊重服務的維繫跟營運計畫的落實……"],["陳委員雪生：數發部說，因為預算被砍，沒有錢修復。關他屁事啊！關你們什麼事？是中華電信去修的，關你們什麼事啊？很奇怪耶！你就跳出來說：我沒有錢，因為預算被砍了。關你們什麼事？中華電信給錢，關你們什麼事？你講嘛！沒有道理的事情一大堆，詐騙！你懂了沒，這個就叫詐騙，這不叫詐騙，什麼叫詐騙？關你們什麼事啊？你們只是督導單位，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們跟數位部就這一塊是疊加式的督導，CI的部分是他們負責……"],["陳委員雪生：講話要誠實嘛！數發部出了一毛錢嗎？NCC出了一毛錢嗎？一毛錢都沒出啊！在那邊說預算被砍，關你們屁事啊！","另外，請問主委，關於馬祖地區的文化節目，你們目前補助了什麼？你們有編這個預算喔！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：馬祖的有線電視祥通的部分，我們有請他來申請，我們還有繼續接洽他的意願……"],["陳委員雪生：不是意願，你補助了什麼東西、成果怎麼樣、執行情形怎麼樣？說明一下好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是不是允許我請黃副處長做說明？"],["陳委員雪生：哪個單位來說明一下？有關文化的部分有補助馬祖什麼？有給了一毛錢嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，因為這個補助案的受補助方也要支出，由於馬祖祥通是比較規模小的，他的營業額比較少，所以他也有他的考量。"],["陳委員雪生：所以不要給？"],["黃副處長天陽：不是不要給，因為他提一個計畫案也要……"],["陳委員雪生：你給多少錢了？"],["黃副處長天陽：我們都有在規劃，在我們的內容上，都歡迎大家來申請。"],["陳委員雪生：不是規劃，你給了多少錢啦？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他沒有來申請。"],["陳委員雪生：你到現在給多少錢了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他沒有來申請，我們一直跟他協商，請他來申請，但是因為他要自付一部分的經費，他目前為止都沒來申請。"],["陳委員雪生：他根本都不知道。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他要換照的時候，我們都有提醒他，評鑑的時候也有提醒他。"],["陳委員雪生：你們輔導一下好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：一個禮拜答復我你們輔導的情形怎麼樣，一個禮拜之內答復我好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要因為地方小，就一毛錢都不給，這有分顏色嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有、沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：有沒有顏色的問題？有藍綠白的問題嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，就看有線電視業者的主動意願。"],["陳委員雪生：好啦，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時43分）","繼續開會（10時53分）"],["主席（許委員智傑）：現在開始開會。","請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meeti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是不是這樣子"},{"start":78.317,"end":105.065,"text":"各位報告他是屬於一個行政就是一般行政規則他的位階比組織法還要低那組織法的從94年制定的當時他是以法定總額來認定的這個在立法院的公報裡頭都可及主委我們可以當然來討論一下啦這個部分因為畢竟你們的意思要點的第二條就寫了嘛這是你們意思要點自己寫的"},{"start":106.26,"end":134.588,"text":"那你自己是說你們意思要點從民國94年到最後的修正是113年8月2號第二條本委本會委員會會議由權力委員組成之未依法就任委員或就任後出缺者不記錄委員總額這件事情是你們明文寫在你們的網站上面的意思要點如果這一條照主委的意思你是不是說你覺得這一條跟你們的立法意旨是抵觸的那所以這一條是無效的你是這個意思嗎"},{"start":136.247,"end":152.63,"text":"這邊的試用上會要以母法組織法來優先試用那如果這樣的話你這個國家通訊傳播委員會的第1條一開始就是錯誤的啦如果照你這個說法的話你後面的你如果開會意思要點是錯誤的話那我想請問一下你們委員會怎麼召開的"},{"start":154.085,"end":171.815,"text":"我們現在無法組成委員會 現在委員會並沒有召開我的意思是說如果今天連議事要點你不認因為這個是 我想最後這修法是去年8月2號去年8月2號也沒有提到這個修法就修別的東西那結果最後這修法了這麼多年下來這條一直擺在這邊那你現在跟我說這條不適用"},{"start":173.416,"end":188.012,"text":"那什麼時候才施用那這條牌要做什麼這條在過往百分之九十以上的時間都不會掉到這個情境因為當時的剩下的猿兒都超過四個那你那個母法的這個依據在哪裡"},{"start":188.82,"end":217.225,"text":"在94年的那個院會的立法公報大院的相關的公報裡頭在94年的我們有發布新聞稿大意就是說行政院在他的立法說明裡頭有講到說是以全體總額掛戶7人當時的草案都是全體法定總額是7人來說明的那後續通過版本雖然人數有採其他政黨的提案但是這個"},{"start":218.866,"end":236.301,"text":"這個這方面的一些共識認知都是在一貫來通過來處理的所以都是認定為法定總額所以當然你說你這是共識啦但本席覺得這不是共識啦因為就是我們提到的嘛如果你意思要你這樣寫他已經幫你排除了他說未依法就任的委員"},{"start":237.549,"end":253.844,"text":"現在就是很多委員沒有依法就任啦現在現行的狀況就是這樣他不就幫你解決這件事情了嗎但是他的位階是行政規則他一般跟無法跟法律抵觸的話這邊是就條文本身我們有看到抵觸的可能性啦"},{"start":254.685,"end":269.394,"text":"因為你條文沒有寫這個而且當初的立法意旨你說民國94年那個立法意旨寫的時候是七個人那你照這樣講你現在超過七個人不就又違反了這個立法意旨嗎所以我覺得在這邊爭論這個立法意旨因為這立法意旨跟當初已經不太一樣了那你們既然也依據這個"},{"start":272.09,"end":297.421,"text":"這個國調宣傳媒委員會訂定本要點已經訂了這個東西依照你們法定職權訂的這些這是你們第一條寫的你們這個要點是依據這個通傳會委員會會行使法定職權所以特地訂定了這個要點所以訂定這個要點的第二條是直接講明了說如果有委員未依法就任或就任或出缺所以不羈辱委員總和不羈辱委員總和是你們寫的又不是我寫的這是好幾年前好久以前就寫的啊那所以我想今天要講這樣子第一個"},{"start":299.133,"end":323.64,"text":"前面很多委員提到了 今天NCC委員出缺是因為行政院沒有提委員進來 我沒得審這第一個部分 這我也沒辦法但我今天想幫你解決的是問題解決問題的時候有找到這一條那基本上這一條就是讓你們有一個理由或是有一個說法至少是你們定的啊 衛醫法 而且這些年下來立法院也沒有修正最後是修正 我剛剛講 最後是修正去年的8月2號了"},{"start":324.949,"end":346.923,"text":"已經很近代了那時候已經經歷過這個那時候去年陳耀祥是7月31去職的嘛那這個8月2號修正已經是新的結果出來那這樣子的東西我認為主委你應該去試用去思考能不能試用這條讓ANCC趕快回復運作不然你看我們的主委院長去年的11月28號說要提建經過四個月到目前還是沒有提"},{"start":347.463,"end":362.991,"text":"那NC就是停擺嘛我現在也不是辦法啦好 看完報告如果說適用這東西也會違法因為中央法規標準法大概大概一規定是說位階比較低的行政規則如果以母法抵觸它是無效的我們必須要施那當然前提是要以母法抵觸啊那誰會誰來認定這件事情"},{"start":365.612,"end":390.37,"text":"因為當初的立法說明他都是法律的文件之一一般法律的一些運作實踐的操作都是他為沒有寫的都看立法說明當時的情境是這樣如果是這樣的話那我是想問你們這一條是不是要把它修掉那把它提進來啊大家公開的來辯論一下這件事情到底不能說我說了算你說了算嘛因為今天擺明就是有這個法律要點還在這邊是你們會議召開的這個要點還擺在這邊說"},{"start":395.454,"end":419.292,"text":"為依法就任的不算在總額裡面幫你們找到的法律法源依據了嘛對委員說的沒錯我們這個該檢討的行政規則我們會要來檢討好主委那人事談完談錢的問題剛剛其他委員提到說這個NCC是預算被刪除的重災區但是你剛剛提到這個包括你們新聞稿提到你們今年可能四月就會無法執行相關業務是嗎"},{"start":421.38,"end":449.261,"text":"如果我們把土地租金的扣留下來如期支付的話確實是上半年度就會我想請問一下主委抱歉請問代理主委但是這個NCC到底執行業務的時候都是用哪裡的錢在執行業務我們現在單位預算是維持機關基本運作所需比方說水電費水電費 一般事務費 業務費等等那至於說業務費是在我們另外的通傳基金"},{"start":450.602,"end":468.425,"text":"講到重點嘛 就基金嘛 今年基金啦通訊傳播監督管理基金的今年預算編的是5億那這個有線廣播電視事業發展基金編的預算是2.7億這5億跟7億 2.7億合起來大概7點7.7億快8億左右的這個經費我想問一下主委這幾億 這8億 這7點多 7.7億的經費到目前為止運作有沒有問題"},{"start":479.315,"end":499.96,"text":"目前沒有但是跟委員報告因為那些不管是有線還是通訊傳播很多是資訊化的像數位化時代很多是電腦化的會有一些資訊系統資訊系統他吃的水電費跟那個通訊費是用在單位基金裡頭的是在單位預算裡頭的對這個齁這個當初我們在委員會審查預算的時候我們都很清楚基本上"},{"start":501.36,"end":522.11,"text":"NCC本部的預算其實在委會的時候是很順利的因為沒什麼錢坦白說是這樣子沒有什麼重點大家是把重點放在所謂的基金的審查因為其實NCC在執行業務的時候主要應該是在這個基金裡面你們的錢都放在基金裡面那基金到目前為止其實也沒有刪應該說也還沒開始審所以沒有實質上對你們業務認為沒有什麼具體的實質業務的影響"},{"start":528.493,"end":535.317,"text":"所以我覺得主委剛剛有一些委員提到說NCC這個希望你們不要這樣子帶頭的去做這樣子的宣傳"},{"start":536.511,"end":558.899,"text":"因為你說四月斷稅 但問題是沒有 因為基金很多錢在裡面跟委員報告 都是剛才跟委員報告因為我們都資訊化 很多的系統他是吃單位預算裡頭的通訊費跟水電費而且我這邊沒有辦法 沒有預算來支援的話那個通常系統都會停止運作 停止運作的話其實不管基金那邊多少錢 這邊還是幾乎都停擺"},{"start":560.632,"end":587.158,"text":"所以你基金裡面還是有很多這個支出項目是例行性的會支出啦這個在過去的決算在過去的支用裡面都有放在裡面來支出所以我想沒有你講的這麼嚴重我們希望我們就事論事我是覺得大家就事論事跟過去的經驗來看其實基金你們的運用是非常的彈性的我們這樣講就好了我們沒有說我也不特別去點出來你花什麼錢但是基金的運用是非常非常彈性的"},{"start":587.298,"end":615.048,"text":"沒有像主委講的這麼嚴重我希望當然現在就這樣子了當然不管預算的這個狀況已經是現行你的本預算狀況就是這樣子那既然基金有給你這麼多錢讓你執行這些業務我希望這主委想辦法應該是能夠去比照廣利能夠來執行相關業務的好不好主委謝謝委員但是單位預算跟基金的流用沒關係我剛剛提了其實基金裡面運用非常彈性我是說真的這個"},{"start":617.711,"end":628.297,"text":"今年就知道了今年這個預算決算的時候你就會看到我們把預算決算拿出來看去基金預算是非常非常彈性不一定你如你所說的這樣這麼的一次性好不好主委我們就請到這邊啦好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時23分）謝謝主席，我們請陳崇樹代理主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：主委好。主委，任何一個政府機關最重要的兩件事情，一個是人事，一個是經費，我們今天先來討論人事的部分。大家都關注到，換照的部分可能會因為委員會人數不足沒辦法開會，我想確認一下，所謂的換照是不是屬於通訊傳播事業經營權的取得、變更或消滅，是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：我剛剛所敘述的文字，是放在「國家通訊傳播委員會委員會議議事要點」，我想這應該不是詐騙網站，網址是ncclaw.ncc.gov.tw，在你們NCC的網站上面有一個「國家通訊傳播委員會委員會議議事要點」，這是你們據以開會的基本要點。我剛剛所述的放在第五條第六項裡面，有關通訊傳播事業經營權取得、變更或消滅之處分案之審議，是透過這要點來處理的，是吧？是不是這樣子？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，它屬於一般行政規則，它的位階比組織法還要低。組織法在94年制定的當時，它是以法定總額來認定的，這個在立法院的公報裡頭都有跡可尋。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，我們可以大概討論一下這個部分，因為畢竟你們的議事要點第二條就寫了，這是你們的議事要點自己寫的，那你的意思是說，你們的議事要點從民國94年到最後修正是113年8月2號，第二條「本會委員會議由全體委員組成之。未依法就任委員或就任後出缺者，不計入委員總額。」這件事情明文寫在你們網站上面的議事要點，如果這一條，照主委的意思，你是不是說你覺得這一條跟你們的立法意旨是牴觸的，所以這一條是無效的，你是這個意思嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這邊在適用上要以母法（組織法）來優先適用。"],["黃委員健豪：如果這樣的話，這個「國家通訊傳播委員會委員會議議事要點」的第二條一開始就是錯誤的啦！如果照你這個說法，你們開會所根據的議事要點是錯誤的話，那我想請問一下，你們委員會怎麼召開的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們現在無法組成委員會，現在委員會並沒有召開。"],["黃委員健豪：我的意思是，如果今天連議事要點你都不認，這個要點最後一次修法是去年8月2號，去年8月2號也沒有提到這個修法，就修別的東西，結果這一次修法了，這麼多年下來，這一條一直擺在這邊，你現在跟我說這條不適用，那什麼時候才適用？那這條擺在這邊做什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在過往百分之九十以上的時間都不會掉到這條的情境，因為當時剩下的員額都超過10個。"],["黃委員健豪：那母法的依據在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在94年大院的立法院公報裡頭，我們有發布新聞稿，大意就是行政院在它的立法說明裡頭有講到是以全體總額（7人），當時的草案就是以法定總額是7人來算的，後續通過的版本，雖然人數有採納其他政黨的提案，但是這方面的共識、認知都是一貫按通過的來處理，都是認定為法定總額。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，剛才你說這是共識，但本席覺得這不是共識啦！就如我們提到的，如果你的議事要點這樣寫，它已經幫你排除了，它說「未依法就任的委員」，現在就是很多委員沒有依法就任，現行的狀況就是這樣，它不就是幫你解決了這件事情了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：但是它的位階是行政規則，一般行政規則跟母法、跟法律牴觸的話，這邊是依法……"],["黃委員健豪：就條文本身，我沒有看到牴觸的可能性，因為你條文沒有寫這個，而且當初的立法意旨，你說民國94年當時立法意旨寫的時候是7個人，照你這樣講，現在超過7個人不就又違反立法意旨了嗎？所以我覺得在這邊爭論立法意旨，因為這個立法意旨跟當初已經不太一樣，你們既然也依據，如同第一條所寫的「國家通訊傳播委員會為舉行委員會議，行使法定職權，特訂定本要點。」本要點第二條就直接講明：如果有委員未依法就任或就任後出缺者，不計入委員總額。不計入委員總額是你們寫的，又不是我寫的，這也是好久以前就寫的。所以我今天要講的是，第一個，前面很多委員提到的，今天NCC委員出缺是因為行政院沒有提委員名單進來，我們沒得審，這是第一部分，這個我也沒有辦法。但是我今天是想要幫你解決問題，在思考如何解決問題的時候找到這一條，基本上這一條就是讓你們有一個理由或是有一個說法，至少是你們訂的，而且這些年下來立法院也沒有修正，我剛剛講，最後一次修正是去年的8月2號，距離現在很近，去年陳耀祥是7月31日去職的，那8月2號的修正新的結果已經出來，我認為主委，你應該去思考能不能適用這條讓NCC趕快回復運作。不然你看，我們卓院長去年11月28號說要提，到現在已經過四個月，到目前還是沒有提，那NCC就是停擺嘛，我想這也不是辦法啦。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，如果適用這個也會違法，因為中央法規標準法有規定，位階比較低的行政規則如果與母法牴觸，它是無效的，我們必須要……"],["黃委員健豪：當然前提是要與母法牴觸，那誰來認定這件事情？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為當初的立法說明就是法律的文件之一，一般法律、法令的運作、實踐的操作都是這樣，條文沒有寫的都看立法說明，當時的情境是這樣……"],["黃委員健豪：主委，如果是這樣的話，我想請問，你們是不是要把這一條修掉？要把它提進來啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：大家公開的辯論一下這件事情，道理不能說是我說了算或是你說了算，因為今天擺明就是有這個法律要點還存在，是你們召開會議的議事要點中還明文規定，未依法就任的不算在總額裡面，我幫你們找到了法源依據了嘛。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，委員說的沒錯，我們該檢討的行政規則，我們要來檢討。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委，人事談完，然後要談錢的問題。剛剛其他委員提到NCC是預算被刪除的重災區，但是你剛剛提到、包含你們新聞稿提到，你們今年4月可能就會無法執行相關業務，是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果我們把扣留下來的土地租金如期支付的話，確實是上半年度就會……"],["黃委員健豪：我想請問一下代理主委，NCC執行業務的時候都是用哪裡的錢在執行業務？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們現在單位預算是維持機關基本運作所需，比方說水電費、一般事務費、業務費等等，至於業務費是在我們另外的通傳基金。"],["黃委員健豪：講到重點了，基金。通訊傳播監督管理基金今年編列的預算是5億，有線廣播電視事業發展基金編列預算是2.7億，5億跟2.7億合起來大概有7.7億，快8億左右的經費。我想問一下主委，這7.7億的經費到目前為止運作有沒有問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：目前沒有，但是跟委員報告，那些不管是有線還是通訊傳播，現在是數位化時代，很多都是電腦化的資訊系統，資訊系統吃的水電費跟通訊費是在單位預算裡頭。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，這個當初我們在委員會審查預算的時候都很清楚，基本上NCC本部的預算在委員會的時候是很順利的，因為沒什麼錢，坦白說是這樣子，沒有什麼重點，大家是把重點放在基金的審查，因為確實NCC在執行業務的時候主要應該是在基金裡面，你們的錢都放在基金裡面，基金到目前為止其實也沒有刪，應該說也還沒開始審，所以我認為對你們沒有什麼具體實質業務的影響。主委，剛剛有一些委員提到，希望NCC不要帶頭去做這樣子的宣傳，因為你說4月斷炊，但其實沒有，因為很多錢在基金裡面。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，就是剛才跟委員報告的，因為我們都資訊化，很多系統是吃單位預算裡頭的通訊費跟水電費，如果這邊沒有預算來支應的話，那些通傳系統都會停止運作，停止運作的話，不管基金那邊有多少錢，這邊還是幾乎都停擺。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，你們基金裡面還是有很多支出項目是例行性的支出，這個在過去的決算、在過去的支用裡面都有放在裡面來支出，所以我想沒有你講得這麼嚴重，我希望我們就事論事，以過去的經驗來看，其實你們基金的運用是非常彈性的，我們這樣講就好了，我也不去特別點出來你花了什麼錢，但是基金的運用是非常非常彈性的，沒有像主委講得這麼嚴重。現在你本預算的狀況就是這樣子，既然基金有給你這麼多錢讓你執行這些業務，我希望主委想辦法，應該是能夠比照往例來執行相關業務，好不好？主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員，但是單位預算跟基金的流用……"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，我剛剛提了，其實你們基金的運用非常彈性，我是說真的，今年就知道了，今年預算決算的時候，我們把預算決算拿出來看，你就會看到其實基金預算是非常非常彈性，不一定如你所說的這麼的一致性，主委，我就提到這邊了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","現在請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900120d309efefe155c47542dab5946a2243cf129e64e549d1983b6116c1c0933fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:17:25 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而且是2016年他的第一次選舉那我們來看下一個"},{"start":176.515,"end":191.062,"text":"這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣那我想請教一下因為這個文宣你們在那個歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份那為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份啊"},{"start":193.292,"end":213.511,"text":"為什麼會點藏兩份?目的是什麼?這點你也不清楚我必須承認我不知道不知道那今天文化部有沒有有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下今天我們有代表來我也好我是台灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩華那我們的這些文物其實我們有因應選舉的話去進行當代的收藏"},{"start":214.031,"end":237.236,"text":"那就是在經過一個委員的搜審過程來確認這些文物是否入場那有些文物他可能會在他的背後可能有他不同的一個脈絡所以這個部分有兩份的部分我可以再做確認然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告所以你也不曉得嘛但是他就是有兩份啊他就有兩份好我們進去看因為我看了蠻多的好這個是蔡英文點亮台灣總統競選宣傳旗"},{"start":239.716,"end":259.888,"text":"有兩隻那我這個部分是想請教一下文物你們收藏之後會說要保存嘛那保存會維護嗎比如說那個棋子如果說有破損那就是讓他繼續破損還是說你們其實是有編人力資品維護人力去修復狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":262.264,"end":284.4,"text":"我想用我的經驗來看它這是跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法就是譬如說部長部長我時間有限你直接回答我問題就好因為我現在是問說因為這個東西很重要嘛它是世界認識台灣的首要窗口啊所以我們當然保存東西要好好保存我現在只是問我的問題很簡單"},{"start":285.42,"end":306.999,"text":"就是他如果有破損會不會有修復當然要修復有會修復因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了這個我問你一個問題像我去拜訪林義雄他是一個受害者欸這不是你在質詢我啦我的問題很簡單啦問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料全部是拒絕的棋子部長部長不要岔題啦我問的是說"},{"start":309.861,"end":332.767,"text":"因為我的問題很簡單部長我到現在為止都沒有在我只是在詢問我想知道說保存我沒有說不能保存這個我現在只是問說保存這個有沒有修復機制你不要防禦心這麼強我當然小心我只是問有沒有修復機制因為這個歷史博物館是認識台灣首要窗口"},{"start":333.507,"end":352.014,"text":"我沒有不讓你做這個事我是問說你有沒有好好保存當然要好好保存好要保存嘛 對吧那所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情後面那位多少人留言 對啊比如說織品如果有損壞或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞或什麼你們現在的編制修復的人力是怎樣"},{"start":352.714,"end":380.351,"text":"跟我們報告那由於整個編制的問題那台思博目前有兩位修復師那我們就是文物進場之前會先進行整吃那這部分會委外來進行委外那個專業的廠商來進行委外來進行就對了是用委外的方式對那我們內部有兩位修復師兩位修復師他是修復哪一類的因為不同文物會有不同的修復技巧有一位是以紙質為主然後一位是以木質為主然後其他就委外嘛好下一頁他們也都熟"},{"start":380.831,"end":399.406,"text":"下一頁這個聯合報齁一樣齁這個聯合報有一他的頭版喔2012年的1月10號點藏也是點藏兩份然後這個問題剛剛沒有辦法回答嘛因為你不知道說為什麼有的是點藏兩份以上嘛但是這個聯合報的點藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長齁第一個"},{"start":400.711,"end":427.777,"text":"他這邊在這個文物的描述的部分啊特別提到主要經營人是承認中國國民黨中央常務委員的王剃無另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員的李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動那當然你們的講法一定會是說對啊他就是客觀描述啊他的確是創辦人是誰啊然後他的確這個有退報運動可是我這邊好奇的是啊"},{"start":429.409,"end":444.473,"text":"聯合報實際上他退報運動總共有三次我們來看一下不是只有那一次李瑞環的比如說1960年他們因為挺雷震堅守第四權所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅軍方發起退報運動但是聯合報能貫徹正派辦報"},{"start":450.915,"end":470.205,"text":"就是說他退報其實有好幾次但是你們在文物的描述我們看上一頁文物的描述上專門把這個他1992年刊載中共中央政治局常委李瑞環談話引發退報就把它寫在那邊好像聯合報就只有這一支退報運動而且他還是因為刊載了中共的言論的關係被退報"},{"start":472.079,"end":496.785,"text":"我覺得是有偏頗啦這是第一個問題等一下一起回答第二個問題是因為這個歷史博物館他可以把典藏的文物做授權嘛那現在你典藏了聯合報的的這個報紙那人家也可以來取得授權可是理論上來講聯合報的東西應該是屬於他個人的智慧財產權啊那歷史博物館為什麼會可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢兩個問題"},{"start":504.057,"end":525.545,"text":"跟委員報告就是說有關文物的部分我們會就當下那個研究員他們就會去做相關的資料的一個手整然後經過審議委員來做確認內容那如果說這個內容他因為當時候的內容如果不是很就是完整的話他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理那如果說未來我們再進行更深入的研究的時候我們會再把相關的詮釋資料來進行補助"},{"start":527.72,"end":541.68,"text":"你現在你是下面對聯合報做敘述啦其實你這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身那個文物本身是2012年的1月10號的內容嘛但是你現在下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述"},{"start":542.922,"end":569.52,"text":"那聯合報敘述如果你要講退報運動他有好幾次退報運動那為什麼你就只講這一次咧就偏頗啊就人家也曾經有挺雷震啊 堅守第四權被退報你不講你只講說因為他有刊登過什麼中共的某一個人的談話所以被退報 我覺得太偏頗了啊好不好 歷史博物館既然是世界認識台灣的窗口不能偏頗 這個第一個我希望你們可以調整啦"},{"start":570.14,"end":572.869,"text":"那這可以吧好 謝謝委員我們還有補助相關的請問部長你認同嗎是部長"},{"start":576.451,"end":583.115,"text":"我不但認同還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解如果就歷史來講這三個時間都對我們會把它補起來而且你要知道嗎你把它補起來之後就會知道台灣的當初戒嚴是報競聯合報中國時報可以賣到一百萬份後來漸漸報競開放之後報紙變很多之後它的賣量變少因為我持續時間有些你講故事都講太久其實我很喜歡聽有一天"},{"start":604.748,"end":630.274,"text":"比如說我們可以請你喝個下午茶你慢慢講給我聽但是因為我們資訊時間很有限啦我們就針對重點好不好好那所以這個部分你們認同嗎不能有偏頗啦好不好第二個授權的部分為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢跟我們報告如果說那個出授權的原始人還是存去的話我們不會主動做這個授權我們只有做物的比如說要借展才會有授權那這個部分如果說它是涉及內容的引用的話都還是要回到原來比如說"},{"start":631.354,"end":649.244,"text":"所以你們如果有智慧財產權你們不會做授權好不好這是你講的再來還有這個是民進黨這個建黨週年紀念表總共典藏了七支你看有登錄七個登錄號為什麼這個表是特別厲害還是怎樣我是好奇啦就是典藏了七支是為什麼"},{"start":651.206,"end":680.599,"text":"跟委員報告好我現在沒有在質疑說你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西沒有喔我現在只是好奇說這個錶是不是厲害的地方在哪裡典藏了七支海史博它是新往近成立的一個博物館那我們有在積極地進行當代的收藏那很多其實是民間的一個捐贈那我們這邊的話其實會先就捐贈的物件先做一些初步的一個審議那這個部分我也是需要再做確認就是說也許它因為剛才有報告就是說每個文物它其實有不同的一個脈絡跟後面的一些"},{"start":680.939,"end":706.713,"text":"所以我必須要再確認一下說當初這個路長你再確認好不好看起來乍看之下你也覺得很怪但是我不為難你啦你再去確認那一個東西好然後再來就是我覺得這個歷史播放好像對於這個選舉的東西特別有興趣連那個2000年沉水扁的礦泉水都有典藏然後還有宣傳手機架鑰匙圈旗子布條等等這些東西"},{"start":708.711,"end":735.878,"text":"這個選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品因為我你到時候要一併說明沒有沒有好先一併說明各位國民報告就是因應整個現在世界的潮流就是當代議題的一個收藏包括這些選舉或是像疫情這些等等都是會有一個初步的收藏那我們現在管內有制定一個相關的就是一個分流的制度當代典藏跟因為當初剛開始的時候制度還不完善你說剛開始的時候因為人家只要捐贈你就收是不是"},{"start":736.158,"end":753.954,"text":"我們還是有經過審議那當時候因為有一開始的話經過審議那會納入文物但是我們現在我們現在就是問說這個審議為什麼會這樣啊它的標準是什麼啊對就是其實我們是因應整個世紀潮流現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代搜查OKOK好那繼續但你剛剛講說那都很重要嘛像剛剛那個部長講說飯雲為什麼會被收藏因為他太重要了"},{"start":759.139,"end":775.072,"text":"那我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也蠻重要吧可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞韓國瑜跟柯文哲就沒有任何的文物典藏他的一個旗子他的一個面子或他的一個什麼小物就通通都沒有啊所以這標準很怪啊"},{"start":776.483,"end":795.262,"text":"這標準很怪啊跟委員報告就是這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈那所以其實民間如果有捐贈那我們經過搜審之後所以意思是說因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈所以沒有然後只要有捐贈不管你捐贈一支兩支三支四支甚至七支你都收"},{"start":795.885,"end":804.427,"text":"我們還是有經過嚴謹的一個搜尋嚴謹那為什麼要棲織你還是回答不出來了剛才有稍微看一下我認為應該是說有捐贈還是要做一個篩選好不好那再來剛剛那個問題剛剛如果說你剛剛沒有辦法回答的麻煩寫一個針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我最後很快因為部長應該知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情本來我去年是有提案"},{"start":825.751,"end":841.125,"text":"因為打荒的辦公室我認為成效不彰啦他那個時候只有裁發了七十幾件變了兩千多萬只有裁發七十幾件覺得成效不彰反正要提案刪除但後來因為你們也有溝通嘛覺得會好好做這個事情所以我們也沒有這個預算沒有處理但是網路上就在帶風向"},{"start":842.226,"end":862.956,"text":"說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛說什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票就大家來找我我覺得這個台灣這個網路實在是太誇張了完全沒有就事論事空間從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算認為這個導黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效那現在最新的資料是說才發了145件那部長你自己滿意嗎"},{"start":867.415,"end":880.19,"text":"我說不算滿意或者不滿意因為環遊的問題大家都知道在文創法裡面我們沒有直接可以限制票的買賣我們唯一做的就是"},{"start":881.693,"end":895.704,"text":"在最近做了一件比較有進步的事情就是約這六都的負責大場館的這種的人來開會希望他們在辦法上鼓勵實名制那這效果非常好文化部會補助經費"},{"start":898.152,"end":923.785,"text":"補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體結果效果果然環流就下降像這種就是一個我們在法律上沒有不准他用這種方式販售環流的一個法我們只能用去檢舉那你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複檢舉到之後我們整理完叫警政單位去抓他這個過程是很繁複的"},{"start":924.545,"end":947.896,"text":"那對於一個文化部來講他去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的好 那個部長這個加油啦好不好大家都很對黃牛深惡痛絕啦而且預算給你們的我覺得就要不是說發包出去啦還是要盯一下啦希望他們可以積極的把黃牛的杜絕好不好讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":941,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時17分）你好，請文化部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：葉委員你好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我跟你請教一下國立臺灣歷史博物館的問題，因為我看到業務報告也說臺灣歷史博物館要擴建。臺灣歷史博物館主要的設立宗旨，是文化部要辦理臺灣歷史與民俗文化相關文物、史料的蒐集、整理、保存跟研究，而且要展示跟推廣教育。剛剛你們的業務報告裡面也有講到，現在要啟動第二期的擴建計畫，114年如果能夠獲行政院核定，預計119年完工開放營運，要成為世界認識臺灣的首要窗口。它的目標是很宏大的，是首要窗口，就是說除了臺灣之外，其他國家想認識臺灣，都可以透過我們的國立臺灣歷史博物館，所以這個國立臺灣歷史博物館非常重要。","我就幾個面向來跟部長討論，第一個我想問，我們在國立臺灣歷史博物館的典藏裡面，看到范雲在2016年競選的文宣，當時他去攻擊他的對手蔣乃辛，提了三個問題，說你為什麼都不回答，然後這個文宣描述上當然是用非常正面的語氣，文宣正面質問對手國民黨蔣乃辛任立委時做的種種決定，背後論述人民為何應該要投給范雲，並有小野與蔣勳為其背書，有提到部長。我想問一下，為什麼歷史博物館會典藏這個東西？它的考慮是什麼？"],["李部長遠：你剛才講的這一段我並不知道，但也不是因為我是文化部長之後才收藏這個東西，據我了解……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得也不是啦！我只是問，因為我們這個東西是世界認識臺灣的首要窗口……"],["李部長遠：我想它很簡單，就是臺灣從戒嚴以後走入民主，民主運動是一個蠻重要的過程，假如各位沒有忘記的話，范雲當年是野百合的領袖，他是野百合占領中正紀念堂的領袖，後來出來從政。他後來被國民黨監視的歷史……大概是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝部長。所以你的意思是說，因為范雲特別重要，所以就典藏了他的文宣──去質問蔣乃辛，而且是2016年他的第一次選舉。好，謝謝。","我們來看下一個。這個是蔡英文總統跟陳建仁副總統可能第一次出來選總統的文宣。我想請教一下，這個文宣你們在歷史博物館裡面典藏了兩份，為什麼有的文宣你是典藏兩份？為什麼會典藏兩份？目的是什麼？"],["李部長遠：這點我……"],["葉委員元之：你也不清楚？"],["李部長遠：我必須承認我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：不知道？那文化部有沒有知道的人可以來幫部長回答一下？"],["李部長遠：今天我們有代表來。"],["莊副館長佩樺：委員好，我是臺灣歷史博物館副館長莊佩樺。其實我們有因應選舉去進行當代文物的蒐藏，就是經過委員的蒐審過程來確認這些文物是否入藏，有些文物可能背後有它不同的脈絡，典藏兩份的部分我可以再做確認，然後再跟委員做一個比較完整的報告。"],["葉委員元之：所以你也不曉得嘛？但是它就是有兩份啊！我們繼續看，因為我看了滿多的。這個是蔡英文「點亮臺灣」總統競選宣傳旗，有兩支。這個部分我是想請教一下，你們蒐藏文物之後要保存，那保存會維護嗎？比如說旗子如果有破損，那就是讓它繼續破損，還是說你們其實是有編織品維護人力去修復？狀況是怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：我想用我的經驗來看，它跟一般的文物是一樣要保存的……"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["李部長遠：但是我得跟委員講一下我的想法。譬如說……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！部長，我的時間有限！你直接回答我的問題就好。我現在是問，因為這個東西很重要嘛！它是世界認識臺灣的首要窗口，所以我們當然要好好保存……"],["李部長遠：但是你把它……"],["葉委員元之：我的問題很簡單，就是它如果有破損，會不會有修復？"],["李部長遠：當然要修復。"],["葉委員元之：也會修復？那你們人力……"],["李部長遠：因為你簡化了蔡英文跟簡化了……我問你一個問題，像我去拜訪林義雄，他是一個受害者……"],["葉委員元之：今天不是你來質詢我啦！我的問題很簡單，我的問題只是說你會不會修復而已嘛！"],["李部長遠：他家裡擺了一大堆民主運動的資料，全部是競選的旗子，那你不能……"],["葉委員元之：部長，不要岔題啦！我的問題很簡單，部長，我到現在為止都沒有在……我只是在詢問。"],["李部長遠：因為你講……"],["葉委員元之：我想知道保存……我沒有說不能保存這個。"],["李部長遠：OK，那我有……"],["葉委員元之：我現在只是問說保存這個部分有沒有修復機制，你不要防禦心這麼強啦！"],["李部長遠：我當然很小心啊！"],["葉委員元之：我只是問有沒有修復機制！因為歷史博物館是認識臺灣的首要窗口。我沒有不讓你做這個事，我是問說你有沒有好好保存？"],["李部長遠：當然要好好保存。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！要保存嘛！所以你們有編制多少人力在做維護的這件事情？後面那位……"],["李部長遠：有多少人？好。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！比如說織品如果有損壞，或者是有一些書面印刷有損壞，你們現在的編制修復人力是怎樣？"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，囿於整個編制的問題，臺史博目前有兩位修復師。文物進場之前會先進行整飭，這部分會委外專業的廠商來進行。"],["葉委員元之：委外來進行就對了？"],["莊副館長佩樺：對，進行相關的整飭。"],["葉委員元之：是用委外的方式？"],["莊副館長佩樺：對。我們內部有兩位修復師，他們會進行必要的……"],["葉委員元之：兩位修復師？他是修復哪一類的？因為不同文物會有不同修復的技巧。"],["莊副館長佩樺：有一位是以紙質為主，然後一位是以木質為主。"],["葉委員元之：然後其他就委外嘛？"],["莊副館長佩樺：他們也都熟。"],["葉委員元之：好。下一頁，一樣，聯合報的頭版，2012年1月10號也是典藏兩份，這個問題剛剛沒辦法回答嘛，因為你不知道為什麼有的是典藏兩份以上，但是這個聯合報的典藏有兩個問題我想要就教一下部長。第一個，它這邊在文物描述的部分，特別提到主要經營人是曾任中國國民黨中央常務委員的王惕吾，另外聯合報在1992年曾因刊登中共中央政治局常務委員李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動。當然你們的講法一定會是說：「對啊！它就是客觀描述啊！的確創辦人是誰啊！的確有退報運動。」可是我這邊好奇的是，實際上聯合報的退報運動總共有3次，我們來看一下，不是只有李瑞環那一次。譬如說1960年他們因為挺雷震，堅守第四權，所以曾經引發時任總統蔣中正不悅，軍方發起退報運動，但是聯合報仍貫徹「正派辦報」，就是它退報其實有好幾次，但是你們在文物的描述上，專門把它1992年刊載中共中央政治局常務委員李瑞環的談話而引發退報運動寫在那邊，好像聯合報就只有這一次退報運動，而且它還是因為刊載了中共言論的關係被退報，我覺得是有偏頗啦！這是第一個問題，等一下一起回答。","第二個問題，因為歷史博物館可以把典藏的文物做授權，現在你典藏了聯合報的報紙，人家也可以來取得授權，可是理論上來講，聯合報的東西應該是屬於它個人的智慧財產權，那歷史博物館為什麼可以把別人的智慧財產權做授權的動作呢？以上兩個問題。"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，有關文物的部分，當下研究員會去做相關資料的蒐整，然後經過審議委員來確認內容，如果當時候的內容不是很完整的話，他只會就當下的那個事件來做處理，如果未來我們在進行更深入的研究時，會再把相關的詮釋資料進行補註。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！是下面對聯合報做敘述，其實這個文物典藏你不是描述文物本身，那個文物本身是2012年1月10號的內容，但是下面紅字我標出來的部分其實是你們對於聯合報的敘述。如果你要講退報運動，它有好幾次退報運動，但為什麼你就只講這一次？就偏頗啊！人家也曾經有挺雷震、堅守第四權而被退報，你不講，你只講說因為它有刊登過中共某一個人的談話，所以被退報，我覺得太偏頗了！歷史博物館既然是世界認識臺灣的窗口，不能偏頗，這是第一個，我希望你們可以調整，這可以吧？"],["莊副館長佩樺：好，謝謝委員，我們會補足相關的詮釋資料。"],["葉委員元之：部長你認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不但認同，還非常感謝你對聯合報這麼了解。如果就歷史來講，這3個時間都對，我們會把它補起來。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["李部長遠：而且你知道嗎？你把它補起來之後，就會知道臺灣當初戒嚴是報禁，聯合報、中國時報可以賣到100萬份，後來漸漸報禁開放、報紙變很多之後，它的賣量變少，它的……"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為我的質詢時間有限，你講故事都講太久，其實我很喜歡聽，有一天我們可以請你喝個下午茶，你慢慢講給我聽，但是因為我們質詢時間有限，我們就針對重點好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["葉委員元之：所以這個部分你們認同嘛，不能有偏頗啦！好不好？第二個授權的部分，為什麼可以代替聯合報去授權呢？"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，著作權的原始人還是存續的話，我們不會主動做這個授權，我們只有做物的，比如說要借展才會有授權。這個部分如果是涉及內容引用的話，都還是要回到原來比如說聯合報……"],["葉委員元之：所以如果有智慧財產權，你們不會做授權？"],["莊副館長佩樺：對。"],["葉委員元之：這是你講的。好，再來，這個是民進黨建黨周年紀念錶，總共典藏了7支，你看，有7個登錄，這個錶是特別厲害還是怎麼樣？我是好奇啦！典藏了7支，是為什麼？"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：我現在沒有在質疑你們是不是只弄民進黨的東西，沒有哦！我現在只是好奇這個錶厲害的地方在哪裡，還典藏了7支。"],["莊副館長佩樺：臺史博是晚近成立的博物館，我們有在積極地進行當代的蒐藏，很多其實是民間的捐贈，我們這邊會先就捐贈的物件做一些初步的審議。這個部分我也是需要再做確認，因為也許它……"],["葉委員元之：要確認？"],["莊副館長佩樺：因為剛才有報告，就是每一個文物其實有不同的脈絡跟後面的一些……"],["葉委員元之：真的每一支都一樣！"],["莊副館長佩樺：所以我必須要再確認一下當初這個入藏……"],["葉委員元之：你再確認好不好？乍看之下你也覺得很怪，但是我不為難你啦！你再去確認。再來，我覺得歷史博物館好像對於選舉的東西特別有興趣哦！連2000年陳水扁總統大選的礦泉水都有典藏，然後還有宣傳手機架、鑰匙圈、旗子、布條等等，這些選舉小物為什麼可以成為國家級典藏品？你到時候再一併說明。"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，因應現在整個世界的潮流，就是當代議題的蒐藏，包括這些選舉或是疫情等等都會有一個初步的蒐藏。我們現在館內也有制定一個相關的分流制度……"],["葉委員元之：分流？"],["莊副館長佩樺：因為剛開始的時候制度還不完善……"],["葉委員元之：你是說剛開始的時候人家只要捐贈你就收是不是？"],["莊副館長佩樺：我們還是有經過審議。"],["葉委員元之：審議？"],["莊副館長佩樺：一開始時經過審議，納入了文物，但是我們現在開始……"],["葉委員元之：對，我現在就是問這個審議為什麼會這樣？它的標準是什麼？"],["莊副館長佩樺：我們是因應整個世界潮流，現在針對這些重要的議題其實都有當代蒐藏。"],["葉委員元之：OK，好，繼續，你剛剛說那些都很重要，像剛剛部長講范雲為什麼會被蒐藏，因為他太重要了。我想有參選過總統的人的東西應該也滿重要的，可是我們去搜尋關鍵詞「韓國瑜」跟「柯文哲」，就沒有任何的文物典藏，他的旗子、面紙或什麼小物通通都沒有，所以這個標準很怪！"],["莊副館長佩樺：跟委員報告，這些選舉物件主要都是來自於民間的捐贈，所以其實民間如果有捐贈，我們經過蒐審之後，就會……"],["葉委員元之：所以意思是說，因為韓粉跟柯粉沒有去捐贈，所以沒有？然後只要有捐贈，不管是捐贈1支、2支、3支、4支，甚至7支你都收？"],["莊副館長佩樺：我們還是有經過嚴謹的蒐審制度。"],["葉委員元之：嚴謹？那為什麼要7支？你還是回答不出來。"],["莊副館長佩樺：剛剛有講，它裡面的物件我剛剛有稍微看一下，其實它有一個套盒，是一個套件的概念。"],["葉委員元之：我認為捐贈應該還是要做一個篩選，好不好？再來，剛剛那個問題，如果你剛剛沒有辦法回答的，麻煩針對我剛剛的問題寫個報告給我。","最後，很快啦！部長應該都知道我們很關心打黃牛這件事情，本來我去年是有提案，因為打黃牛辦公室我認為成效不彰，它那個時候只有裁罰了七十幾件，編了兩千多萬，只有裁罰七十幾件，我覺得成效不彰，本來要提案刪除，但後來因為你們也有來溝通嘛！我覺得你們會好好做這個事情，所以這個預算就沒有處理。但是網路上就在帶風向，說好像我們去監督這個預算就是支持黃牛，什麼以後大家有買到黃牛票，就都來找我，我覺得臺灣網路實在是太誇張了，完全沒有就事論事的空間。從頭到尾我們在這邊就是把關預算，認為打黃牛辦公室沒有積極扮演好它的成效。現在最新的資料是說裁罰了145件，部長，你自己滿意嗎？"],["李部長遠：我說不上滿意或者不滿意，因為黃牛的問題大家都知道，在文創法裡面，我們沒有直接可以限制它票的買賣。我們在最近做了一件比較進步的事情，就是約六都負責大場館的人來開會，希望他們在辦法上鼓勵採用實名制，這個效果非常好。文化部會補助經費，補助那些願意用實名制來辦演唱會的團體，結果果然黃牛就下降了。像這個就是我們在法律上沒有不准它用這種方式販售黃牛票的一個法，我們只能用檢舉的方式，你也知道檢舉的過程非常繁複，檢舉之後，我們整理完到警政單位去抓它，這個過程是很繁複的，對於文化部來講，去管理黃牛這件事情是非常吃力的。"],["葉委員元之：好，部長加油啦！好不好？大家都對黃牛很深惡痛絕，而且預算給你們了，不是說就發包出去，還是要盯一下啦！希望你們可以積極地把黃牛杜絕，讓大家可以不要多花冤枉錢。好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","我們接下來請邱志偉、邱志偉委員、邱志偉不在。","陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","我們請廖先翔、廖先翔、廖先翔委員不在。","我們請張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","我們請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請賴惠員、賴惠員、賴惠員委員不在。","我們請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請張啓楷、張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。","今天登記質詢均已發言完畢。另有林倩綺委員、徐欣瑩委員、陳培瑜委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900791a170e72b169f97648dfe0a0275fc53cf129e64e549d191b9d0562b452a15f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:11:23 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我們的分工是這樣你要不要也直接講一下就是好 各位委員包括我們現在目前有關公托的部分我們現在目前主要就是有一些一些托育方面的一些設施那這裡面包括就是說我們現在目前各位委員包括我們現在目前有總共497"},{"start":193.979,"end":206.748,"text":"497的這個托林中心嘛那我們現在目前接下來我們會來趕快來做這個積極的佈建那今年應該會再多增加46處嘛還會增加大概94處那預計可以再多增加3000名的這個小朋友"},{"start":220.298,"end":222.721,"text":"那也就是說現在497我們就算500啦那你們在多久之內會再增加這個"},{"start":233.331,"end":260.701,"text":"大概時程大概多久一般我們大概到一個據點的推估大概都在兩年左右那但是其實大概到即使到今年都一直陸陸續續各縣市政府還有在額外再申請的所以這個數字還在持續的增加當中對因為托嬰中心除了其他的配備以外便利性也是一個很重要的就是怎麼讓怎麼廣布據點"},{"start":263.631,"end":284.968,"text":"當然啦 要廣佈據點拖延人力的還是有問題啦所以整個政策其實我們不能只看一個點啦只看一個點都會覺得好像很容易啦不過不管怎麼樣就是"},{"start":287.149,"end":312.018,"text":"很感謝次長大概也就之前的經歷所以剛好有外國的朋友可以跟我做溝通今天也就很快速的回答了這兩個你剛才說是三個可是我聽是一個托育一個是托育另外一個是住宅就兩個嘛"},{"start":315.69,"end":333.449,"text":"因為還有一個就補貼啦他們也一樣跟台灣也有這一個因為補貼好像也都比我們高這個數字我必須要再來這邊認一下我們現在目前大概就是一五六七我這邊有資料啦不過就是"},{"start":335.05,"end":362.496,"text":"時間的關係所以我可能不那個就是確實他們的補貼也比我們高不過各類補貼也是要看政府的整體財政那我也希望因為我們常常講說少子女化其實是一個國安的危機沒錯這個我們確實就是盡可能的我們把別人"},{"start":363.516,"end":384.64,"text":"別人在推的好的政策好像剛剛次長講的涉災的部分我們可能也會跟內政部來做一個討論那托育的部分不管0到2歲或者是以上的是屬於教育部我也都希望能夠趕快去廣布據點培養人力讓年輕的父母其實確實是"},{"start":394.022,"end":411.47,"text":"職業家庭兩頭燒有它一定的困難點太困難它就越不想生嘛所以我們還是盡可能用政府的力量來協助他們好謝謝次長次長請回感謝委員謝謝主席我請一下勞動部理事長"},{"start":419.7,"end":445.804,"text":"養委員好市長好市長我因為時間的關係所以我就簡單問一個問題你們現在在研議要修正就業保險法就是讓雙清假如領滿6個月的育嬰留職停薪的可以再增加一個月這是你們的方向是不是可是每年我們大概有9萬個人來"},{"start":449.29,"end":476.87,"text":"來申請一因留職去年是九萬三千對不對那假如按照你們現在的規定就是雙親都要滿六個月才各加一個月是不是這樣子對方向是這樣那這樣子可以受惠的是只有兩萬一千人左右我們的資料是大概這樣子我提一個建議是"},{"start":478.547,"end":487.446,"text":"你們要不要 因為我們現在是一流值可以申請勞保投保薪資的八成的津貼嘛"},{"start":488.001,"end":514.793,"text":"六成然後補貼兩成六成補貼兩成那能不能就是不要用六個月來算因為六個月來算就是只有大概兩成多一點的人有申請育嬰留職的人數裡面只有大概兩成多一點點的人可以享受到政府的這一項鼓勵"},{"start":516.153,"end":534.707,"text":"能不能從勤領的部分譬如說政府勤領六成嘛政府補貼兩成嘛能不能直接就是政府補貼兩成五或者是三成市長懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":535.68,"end":549.932,"text":"用公務預算是不是不是你們現在這兩層是用公務預算多這個月你們也是有兩層是公務預算六層是基金那就是公務預算的部分"},{"start":558.043,"end":578.596,"text":"你們應該要去思考看看,能不能不要用各滿六個月,各加一個月。就是有請領的,就直接是基金負擔六成,然後公務預算負擔兩成五到三成。"},{"start":579.281,"end":601.929,"text":"了解我的意思這樣子可以受惠的人數比較多其實我時間的關係因為雙親都必須要滿12個月對很多家庭其實是有譬如說父母親離異的啦比較會有一些"},{"start":606.246,"end":630.481,"text":"困難出來所以就直接假如說我們有打算要多鼓勵就直接是在經營的層數上做增加是了解委員的意思我沒有要你在這邊直接回答不過你們這個真的可以回去做個思考謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1646,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時11分）謝謝主席，主席請一下衛福部呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：次長好。次長，少子化是一個全球性的問題。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：我國的生育率是一路下滑，南韓比較特殊，南韓的總和生育率曾經幾乎是全球最低的，好像0.7對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：但他們在去（2024）年生育率有微幅的回升，請教一下次長，你們有沒有研究到底是什麼原因？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的關心。據我所知，它的數字在全世界排名確實本來是敬陪末座，即TFR是0.7，去年大概回到0.76，這個其實對韓國人就是很大的一個改變。據我瞭解，因為我之前在學界也認識很多韓國的朋友，其實昨天就有韓國學者來拜訪我，我也就這個問題請教他，他是說他們最近確實有一些政策，除了津貼之外，另外其實是公托，他們公托的比例確實比我們高，這是第二個重點。第三個最重要的就是他們各地方政府的社會住宅，他們的住宅那邊有分胎次別：一胎、二胎、三胎，這方面補助的額度確實比臺灣來得更高，我覺得這個確實是臺灣應該要來借鏡的地方。其實韓國他們在最近這幾年的房價也漲得非常非常驚人，年輕人也付不起，跟臺灣有同樣問題，可是他們用社會住宅的這一個方式，我覺得我們確實應該可以來考慮。"],["楊委員曜：當然社宅好像不是衛福部管，不過社宅……"],["呂次長建德：對，那個部分比較是內政部。"],["楊委員曜：用社宅來當作誘因，我個人也覺得好像是一個很好的方法。也就是說他們的公托做得比我們好？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：然後他們社宅的誘因比較高……"],["呂次長建德：社宅誘因，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：還有嗎？我這裡還有一個問題，因為只有一年，所以也不見得……因為他們大概就是去年才開始……所以可能……"],["呂次長建德：可能還需要長期觀察。"],["楊委員曜：對、對，那公托的部分0到2歲是你……"],["呂次長建德：對，我們的分工是這樣。"],["楊委員曜：你要不要也直接講一下？"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，有關公托的部分，我們目前主要就是有一些托育方面的設施，跟委員報告，我們目前有總共497所托嬰中心，接下來我們會趕快來做積極的布建，今年應該會再多增加大概94處，預計可以再增加3,000名的小朋友。"],["楊委員曜：現在497處，我們就算500，那你們在多久之內會再增加？時程大概多久？"],["周代理署長道君：一般我們一個據點的推估大概都在兩年左右，但是其實到今年各縣市政府都一直陸陸續續還有再額外申請，所以這個數字還在持續的增加當中。"],["楊委員曜：因為托嬰中心除了其他的配備以外，便利性也是很重要的，再來就是怎麼廣布據點。當然，要廣布據點的話，托嬰人力、能量也是有問題。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：所以整個政策其實我們不能就只看一個點，只看一個點都會覺得好像很容易。不過不管怎麼樣，就是很感謝次長，也就你之前的經歷、剛好也有外國的朋友可以做溝通，那今天也就很快的回答了這兩個問題。你剛才說是三個，可是我聽到的是一個托育、另一個是……"],["呂次長建德：對，一個是托育，另外一個是住宅，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：就兩個嘛？"],["呂次長建德：因為還有一個是補貼，他們跟臺灣一樣也有……"],["楊委員曜：補貼好像也都比我們高？"],["呂次長建德：這個數字我必須要再來確認一下。"],["楊委員曜：我這邊有資料，不過就是時間的關係，確實他們的補貼也比我們高，不過各類補貼也是要看政府的整體財政。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：因為我們常常講少子女化其實是一個國安的危機，我們就是盡可能的把別人在推的，如同剛剛次長講的社宅部分，我們可能也會跟內政部來做一個討論。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：托育的部分，不管0到2歲或以上的是屬於教育部，我也都希望能夠趕快去廣布據點、培養人力，其實年輕的父母確實是職業、家庭兩頭燒，有他們一定的困難點，太困難他就越不想生，所以我們還是盡可能用政府的力量來協助他們。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝次長，次長請回。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：主席，我請一下勞動部李次長。"],["李次長健鴻：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：次長好。次長，因為時間的關係，我就簡單問一個問題，你們現在在研議要修正就業保險法？"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["楊委員曜：讓雙親假如領滿六個月的育嬰留職停薪的人可以再增加一個月，這是你們的方向是不是？"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["楊委員曜：可是每年大概有9萬個人來申請育嬰留職停薪。"],["李次長健鴻：去年是9萬3,000人，"],["楊委員曜：假如按照你們現在的規定，就是雙親都要滿六個月才各加一個月，是不是這樣子？你們的方向是這樣？"],["李次長健鴻：對，方向是這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：這樣子可以受惠的是只有2萬1,000人左右，我們的資料大概是這樣子。我提一個建議，因為現在育嬰留職停薪是可以申請勞保投保薪資的八成津貼？"],["李次長健鴻：六成，然後補貼兩成。"],["楊委員曜：那能不能就是不要用六個月來算？因為用六個月來算，有申請育嬰留職的人數裡面，只有大概兩成多一點點的人可以享受到政府的這一項鼓勵，能不能從請領的部分處理？譬如說原本是請領六成外、政府補貼二成，能不能直接由政府補貼二成五或者是三成？次長懂我的意思嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：用公務預算是不是？"],["楊委員曜：不是。你們現在這二成是用公務預算，是不是？"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["楊委員曜：多給這個月，你們也是有二成用公務預算？"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["楊委員曜：六成是基金，對不對？"],["李次長健鴻：對。"],["楊委員曜：那就是針對公務預算的部分，你們應該去想想、思考看看，能不能不要各滿6個月才各加1個月，而是凡有請領的就直接以基金負擔六成，然後用公務預算負擔二成五到三成？"],["李次長健鴻：我了解委員的意思。"],["楊委員曜：次長懂我的意思嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：了解、了解。"],["楊委員曜：這樣子，可以受惠的人數比較多。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["楊委員曜：也比較不會……基於時間的關係，我就是說雙親都必須滿12個月對很多家庭來說，譬如說父母親離異的啦！比較會有一些困難出來。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["楊委員曜：所以應該直接，假如你們打算多鼓勵，那就直接在請領的成數上做增加。"],["李次長健鴻：是、了解委員的意思。"],["楊委員曜：好不好？"],["李次長健鴻：了解委員的意思。"],["楊委員曜：次長，我沒有要求你在這邊直接回答，不過這個方式你們真的可以帶回去做個思考，好不好？"],["李次長健鴻：了解、了解。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員、謝謝次長。","接續請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900ed324fbb1da54df247542dab5946a2243cf129e64e549d1981d98ccfcd6d1fbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:10:13 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謝謝主席那我們是有請文化部 我們李部長好 有請李部長蔡委員你好部長 我要延續 我很故意來這裡質詢我要說台灣IP的事情我記得我認為台灣有很多元素都可以做成很好的IP"},{"start":30.442,"end":51.02,"text":"不然感覺起來就是大家都一直在覺得說好像台灣都缺少了一些故事一些比較壯大的故事然後可以把它做一些惡創把它成功事實上部長你本身你就是一個很棒的作家你的作品事實上非常的多你也寫過很多的一些故事小說"},{"start":51.861,"end":62.21,"text":"甚至你對電影這一塊,你也是你的專業所以我想要跟部長,我就用短短的時間,我跟你們分享台灣有一個很精彩的故事呢部長你覺得要出鏡這個人?蔡謙蔡謙他是台灣一個很有名的海盜他叫做威海鎮...威海鎮武王"},{"start":77.455,"end":85.504,"text":"叫做鎮海威武王啊 鎮海威武王啊這個串謙的我們現在的年輕人 過去的年輕人啊在那裡哭 哭啊都哭不停的 我們過去大人就在那裡說"},{"start":94.052,"end":98.535,"text":"你如果在考,我們就要帶他去你那裡所以意思就是說,這個人這裡有啦事實上他就是一個海盜在清朝嘉慶年間他就是一個很強的海盜這個海盜怎麼強的就是說,他這樣"},{"start":113.242,"end":138.169,"text":"整個當時整個海域啦打遍天下無敵手啦跟香港的一個叫做張寶的也是海盜他們就結盟所以那時候整個青條政府這樣吃頭痛吃頭痛所以這個青條政府就要抓錢抓錢就要由台灣來做這個基地所以它是一個海賊一個海盜的故事它都不是這樣而已"},{"start":139.528,"end":143.513,"text":"他就這樣,不然我現在要講這個故事的精彩啊阿柴騙誰都會這麼強是因為有一個他太太,他太太喔,我們都叫柴騙媽"},{"start":150.454,"end":157.879,"text":"那他太太是怎樣?他太太之前有結婚,兩次,兩個女兒,但是他太太算是比較風流的,女兒都關不住,每個人都在外面,所以有一次娶娶,說去剃頭的時候,去剃頭的時候,我看見他這個娶娶媽,他抓到那個娶娶媽的女兒說,不然這個看多少錢,我讓你,讓我來做忙,他就把娶娶媽抓走,"},{"start":180.634,"end":182.655,"text":"這個刷券罵有夠厲害 刷券所有的贈金都一直在他手裡贈贈到 請到派出他們的大將軍 叫做李長庚這個李長庚就是去給刷券罵 用力 做一千六百萬"},{"start":198.977,"end":216.707,"text":"就用柴鉗罵,所以柴鉗罵真的會贏,不然在那一陣子柴鉗罵也是抓去李長庚的部隊,也是定義私底下然後蔡謙的私利就沒落,沒落之後就出現一個叫做王德路然後他就狡肥把蔡謙的這個海盜集團把他殲滅了"},{"start":221.047,"end":229.093,"text":"我現在要補充說 來喔剛才我說的都是故事所以現在這個IPA的意思就是說為什麼我們家裡有一個地方叫做太保太保就是因為王德祿絞匪有功加封為太子太保所以我們有一個地方叫做太保我們家裡有一個地方叫做五國這個五國就是創建了一個寶河叫做蔡敖谷"},{"start":249.895,"end":262.926,"text":"他當時在山邊的時候 他就滅在當朝的牛角所以我們現在敖谷一直有人家說它就是一個海盜村再來我們在當朝三帝族好人宮我們有去拜一尊大炮那個廟宇的一個神像 他的意象就是那一尊大炮這尊大炮就是東尼闖起馬俗殊榮的大炮"},{"start":279.065,"end":281.027,"text":"所以你如果想要這裡過時 都台灣的過時喔所以台灣怎麼會說我們沒有很壯闊的一個歷史"},{"start":286.881,"end":311.928,"text":"所以我為了部長說的就是說有這麼好的歷史事實上我們文化部就是要發掘像這樣的一個故事那我們去輔導要把這些東西精彩起來精彩起來期待有很多會創造的人就去把它畫成動漫也好把它寫成故事也好這些東西出來了我們就可以讓台灣有自己的IP"},{"start":312.768,"end":316.491,"text":"尤其我看到現在,你看美國現在的本宮紅襪隊,紅襪隊現在和One Piece,日本的海賊王,他們做結盟,現在紅襪隊都用海賊王的角色,然後來做他們整個隊,整個紅襪他們的一個行銷。"},{"start":336.149,"end":343.833,"text":"人就在海裡吃所以有這些IP自然就可以把這些創作發揮到極致什麼東西都可以有集團部長我講這麼多你就短短的講我覺得說這件事我們文化部可以來做"},{"start":350.912,"end":370.449,"text":"剛才說的事情很讚台灣的有些地名地名的背後一個故事還有台灣的王爺信仰剛才你說的大航海時代的海盜我現在想說用漫畫、鮮畫可能最快然後再進一步可能可以文學創作拍電影、電視不錯"},{"start":372.35,"end":377.958,"text":"謝謝你說這件事 我就要補充一下 我剛才 因為這個故事 有時候要說都沒辦法說得很清楚馬祖有一個天后宮 是 那個天后宮 馬祖人都知道 就是創建馬 關子來蓋一個馬祖廟"},{"start":390.395,"end":400.818,"text":"串謙罵就厲害在這裡啦,他知道要去廟,就叫那些心理人來嫁夫廟,這樣你聽到嗎?所以串謙罵就厲害,會有官吏,會有政經,還會有串謙罵很強的串謙罵叫什麼名字?不知道,不知道他姓魯,不知道他什麼名字,真沒差啦,因為我們台灣這個故事,我們沒有去發掘,沒有去伸挖,哇,好多東西我們都不知道,太可惜了"},{"start":416.53,"end":418.574,"text":"好不好 部長 我們一起來努力謝謝 會好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時10分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請文化部李部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：蔡委員你好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我要延續我很久以前來這裡質詢的內容，我要說臺灣IP的事情。"],["李部長遠：是，我記得。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得臺灣有很多元素都可以做成很好的IP，但是感覺起來，大家都一直在覺得好像臺灣缺少了一些故事，一些比較壯大的故事，然後可以把它做一些二創讓它成功。事實上部長就是一位很棒的作家，你的作品非常多，寫過很多故事、小說，甚至電影這一塊也是你的專業，所以我想要用短短的時間，跟部長分享臺灣一個很精彩的故事。部長知不知道蔡牽這個人？蔡牽是臺灣一個很有名的海盜，他叫做鎮海威武王。過去孩子哭鬧不停，大人就會說如果你再哭，等一下要叫蔡牽來抓你，意思就是說這個人很凶惡。事實上他就是一個海盜，在清朝嘉慶年間，他就是一個很強的海盜。這個海盜強在哪裡呢？就是他在當時整個海域，打遍天下無敵手，跟香港一個叫做張保的海盜結盟，讓那時候的清朝政府很頭痛，所以清朝政府要抓蔡牽，蔡牽就以臺灣來做基地，所以它是一個海賊，一個海盜的故事。","我現在要說這個故事的精彩之處，蔡牽不只這樣而已，他為什麼這麼強？因為他有一個太太，我們都叫他蔡牽媽，他太太之前結婚兩次，有兩個老公，但是他太太算比較風流，丈夫都管不住她，每天都往外跑。有一次蔡牽去剃頭的時候看到這位蔡牽媽，他就跟蔡牽媽的老公說，不然這個看多少錢我給你，給我當老婆，就把蔡牽媽帶走了。這個蔡牽媽很厲害，蔡牽所有的戰爭都是他在第一線打頭陣，打到清朝派出他們的大將軍李長庚，這個李長庚被蔡牽媽一砲打死，所以蔡牽媽是真的很能打，不過那次戰役蔡牽媽也被李長庚的部隊打死，之後蔡牽的勢力就沒落了。蔡牽沒落之後出現一個王得祿來剿匪，把蔡牽的海盜集團殲滅了。","剛才我說的都是故事，現在這個IP的意思就是說，為什麼我們嘉義有一個地方叫做太保？太保就是因為王得祿剿匪有功，加封為太子太保，所以我們有一個地方叫做太保。嘉義還有一個地方叫做鰲鼓，這個鰲鼓就是蔡牽的一個部下叫做蔡鰲鼓，他當時要殲滅這些官兵的時候就躲在東石鄉的鰲鼓，所以現在一直有人說鰲鼓就是一個海盜村。再來，我們在東石鄉的三塊厝福靈宮有拜一尊大砲，那座廟宇的一個神像的意象就是那一尊大砲，這尊大砲就是當年蔡牽媽使用的大砲。","這些故事都是臺灣的故事，所以怎麼會說臺灣沒有很壯闊的歷史？我要跟部長說的就是，我們有這麼好的歷史，事實上文化部就是要發掘這樣的故事，我們要去輔導，讓這些東西精彩起來，期待有很多會創作的人把它畫成動漫也好，把它寫成故事也好，這些東西創作出來後，我們就可以讓臺灣有自己的IP。尤其我看到美國現在的紅襪棒球隊，和One Piece日本的海賊王在結盟，現在紅襪隊都用海賊王的角色來做整個紅襪隊的行銷。人家的厲害之處在這裡，所以有這些IP，自然就可以把這些創作發揮到極致，什麼東西都可以有錢賺。部長，我講這麼多了，你就短短的講，我覺得這件事文化部可以來做。"],["李部長遠：剛才說的事情很棒，臺灣有些地名背後的故事，還有臺灣的王爺信仰，跟剛才你說的大航海時代的海盜，我想用漫畫先畫可能最快，然後再進一步可能可以文學創作，拍電影、電視。不錯，謝謝你說的這些故事。"],["蔡委員易餘：我再補充一下，有時候要講故事都沒辦法說得很清楚。馬祖有一個天后宮，馬祖人都知道那個天后宮就是蔡牽媽捐錢來蓋的媽祖廟。蔡牽媽的厲害之處就在這裡，他蓋廟讓那些商人來「寄付」，這樣你聽懂了嗎？蔡牽媽很厲害，會管理、會戰爭，所以蔡牽越打越強。蔡牽媽叫什麼名字？不知道，只知道他姓盧，不知道是什麼名字實在很可惜。臺灣的故事我們沒有去發掘、沒有去深挖，哇！好多東西我們都不知道，太可惜了。部長，我們一起來努力。"],["李部長遠：會，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，部長請回。","我們接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9000c132b4c89b5e9d11a80f058510e45ac3cf129e64e549d1906c82363fbb529205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"13:07:59 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機的啦但是經濟學多少也看過一點你適合做什麼你做什麼我適合做什麼我做什麼那大家用各自的擅長"},{"start":72.302,"end":99.991,"text":"來做一個貿易就會變成全體大家都是一個受惠的一個狀況這就是自由貿易的經濟就過去很多年來大家所提倡的那只是說美國上任之後好像要打破這樣的一個秩序那另外一個關稅對等其實關稅對等這個東西我是認同的關稅對等你課我多少稅我課你多少稅其實這才公平啊那才是符合到我們剛剛前面一個講的自由貿易的經濟情況下絕對是這個關稅對等的情況下那你才能夠這個真的變成說"},{"start":101.912,"end":128.575,"text":"這個誤唱其流的一個概念讓大家發揮大家的一個所長那我想跟兩位確認一下過去我們單方面押寶那過去可能在相關的質詢有都有說我們跟美方保持密切的聯繫那我想請問兩位有沒有在川普上台後所發表的任何一件對台灣有關的經貿的一個政策或者是宣示你們是提前知情的有沒有任何一句話是你們早就知道的提早跟我們講的"},{"start":131.325,"end":148.472,"text":"包括晶片包括最近的關稅問題等等的或貿易逆差有沒有哪一件川普總統或是美國官員在你們看到新聞之前你們就已經收到消息了欸台灣我們過去關係不錯我們可能要發布這個訊息先讓你們知道有沒有任何一件事情是你們早就知道的跟委員報告因為川普他的政策是一直在改變所以我們的駐外的同仁"},{"start":157.506,"end":172.314,"text":"也有跟美國的政府的官員一直在保持密切的聯繫所以但是呢正確要採用什麼樣的訊息還是要以川普總統他所公布的為準好所以就您的回答我可以理解說是"},{"start":174.021,"end":195.929,"text":"過去美國川普上任之後所發布的任何一個政策或是新聞消息我們這邊從來沒有被提前告知過我可以這樣子理解嗎好了就是回到剛剛的問題我們單方面壓榜美國美國好像沒有幫我們當一回事啦所以就是造成我們的行政官員是非常的一個辛苦啦那關稅貿易對等這牽扯到我們兩個部會嘛我們經濟部是負責出口嘛"},{"start":198.57,"end":218.753,"text":"那我們的財政部是負責我們關稅的問題,所以是兩個部會那在關稅對等的這件事情,我們兩個部會有沒有討論過我們可能在關稅對等的這樣的一個理念下我們哪些項目是可以做調整的"},{"start":220.615,"end":248.62,"text":"可能經濟部會認為說我們對美國的產業是多少的稅那美國要對我們是課多少稅那可能經濟部會站在一個關稅對等的情況下來保護我們的國內產業那我們財政部這邊有沒有相關的一個討論或立場或是曾經具體的一個方向出來不只是我們財政部跟經濟部還有其他的部會我們都會很密集的做討論行政院有一個經貿工作小組都非常密集的跨部會的在做討論"},{"start":250.029,"end":276.338,"text":"所以有沒有任何的實際的東西是您在這邊可以講的還是這些還是屬於談判的籌碼我們可能不方便提前宣告對 跟委員報告這相關的產業我們會有什麼樣的措施那在今天的相關產業主管機關的報告裡面也有那當然對於未來我們的目前研擬的方案以及策略都在工作小組裡面都會有而且也涉及到可能未來跟美方"},{"start":277.119,"end":300.521,"text":"的一個協商或者是談判的一些資訊所以其實過去一個WTO的概念就是WTO的概念就是大家多邊貿易一致的關稅那目前美國要打破這樣的觀念他要個別來實施稅率嗎那所以說我們台灣有沒有考慮過因為其實我們覺得我們台灣未來在稅率方面有沒有可能也針對不同的國家去訂定不同的稅率來反制美國可能對我們的關稅的不對等"},{"start":303.138,"end":321.828,"text":"要不要這樣做,我覺得這個是要通盤審慎的演繹的好啦,我希望說現在國際的貿易關係過去可能在蔡英文總統任內的時代在拜登總統任內的時代可能還是美中兩大陣營那現在已經看起來是一個支離破碎的情況了"},{"start":322.828,"end":336.592,"text":"所以說我認為在WTO的一個精神的一個架構上市的情況下我們國家也必須要考慮對不同的國家如果有對我們不同不平等的關稅我們也可以考慮不同的一個差別的一個關稅來面對現在詭譎作變的一個財政的這個經貿情況以上提供給我們參考 謝謝"},{"start":341.753,"end":353.979,"text":"好 謝謝梁委員的咨詢下一位 高清素美 高清素美 高清素美 委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉 委員不在黃國昌 黃國昌 黃國昌 委員不在戰戰前 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謝謝"},{"start":14.824,"end":35.76,"text":"好其實我本來沒有要問這個題目但是我剛剛在聽你詢問大家的時候我就非常好奇就是兒少全法這個其實民間一直不停的在倡議從我自己在民間的時候一直在講所以我想知道因為剛剛說您有提到說現在已經有安排了很多的研商也有些專家座談會但我想做一個提醒就是說因為我們過去在做兒少全法我們都是把兒童當作一個被保護的課題"},{"start":36.781,"end":62.93,"text":"沒錯我希望這個修法是要回到權力的主體所以就等於是說這個重點是什麼重點就是說他並不是一個被保護的人而是他相關的正進步的主動的權利像是發言表達參與公共事務的這些權利促進他發展讓他可以面對未來世界變化的權利沒錯這些東西希望在徵詢相關意見的時候也都應該要有相對的份量我希望這是做一個提醒可以嗎"},{"start":64.19,"end":91.238,"text":"我知道委員過去一直以來確實整個都是在整個兒童權利有很多的倡議也有很多很多的主張那我跟委員報告我們現在就是根據CRC的精神用權利公約確實成如委員剛剛所說的其實現在目前的每一個兒童都是一個獨立自由的自主的個體而且是一個主體他們當然就是在成長過程裡面他們當然是一個必須要被呵護但是他自己本身的自由心靈自由的主體"},{"start":91.778,"end":113.533,"text":"一定要絕對要獲得相對的這個保障所以我們在相關的一些委員討論的時候會不會邀請相關的專家學者呢在這個部分有關於表議權的部分也都有邀請嗎因為我知道大家過去都比較強調在保護的部分啦所以這個部分到時候有一些專家名單是不是也可以提供讓我們參考一下好的好的一定好謝謝謝謝次長那我們接下來請勞動部次長謝謝我的"},{"start":122.11,"end":138.52,"text":"好 次長今天想要來針對這個我們這個少子女化的問題來跟次長討論一下這題其實已經討論了非常非常非常久那國安危機也到現在還是國安危機啦那其實女性不願意生養這是不願意生養其實去年經濟學人都有一些相關的研究"},{"start":139.02,"end":162.252,"text":"這基本上是世界潮流啦最主要就是說大家不願意犧牲自己的生活品質但是呢現金補助還有一些就是權力的提升還是能夠多少有一些刺激喔但其實呢我自己在看2023年的Social Science and Medicine的一個職場文化研究呢它其實就追蹤了五千名科技台灣的五千名科技業的女性喔在生育三年後"},{"start":163.172,"end":183.873,"text":"生育後的三年內離職率高達58%男性申請育嬰家的比例大約31.2%男性實際參與育兒的大概只有12%那其實我也知道說這個職場的改革對於生育率其實是某種程度會有一些些影響那其實去年我們做了一些談心育嬰的事辦計畫那其實也有一些檢討"},{"start":186.394,"end":200.253,"text":"第一個當時就是有講到就是共通性與整體性的一些建議啦然後第二個就是行政制度與實務上面的困難第三個就是雇主管理考量第四個是針對照顧價 家庭照顧價與照顧對象的具體建議"},{"start":201.694,"end":222.26,"text":"這邊我先講一下第一個部分大家在講的就是行政程序太過複雜了我現在看起來都會覺得說這個希望都可以用到現在以民間來說他們都希望可以用時來請但是光以現在以日來請好像行政程序上面都會相對的困難所以想要了解接下來我們要怎麼來解決這個行政效率的問題"},{"start":224.564,"end":244.17,"text":"跟委員說明因為這個是那個育嬰留職停薪它不是一個假的概念而且最重要是他必須要依照這個規定的程序去申請育嬰留職停薪津貼就到勞保局去申請津貼那不過我們勞保局他其實去年開始就已經簡化這個申請程序了"},{"start":245.23,"end":251.834,"text":"所以行政程序上面針對於勞保局這邊都不會有什麼問題是嗎在處理這些份量來說因為如果你未來我們接下來都是以日或是甚至以小時來講以小時來申請的話都沒有問題嗎"},{"start":275.65,"end":294.382,"text":"跟委員說明我們這個有內部有討論過就如果要改成日來申請的話那麼需要修改那個資訊系統那還有他必須要增加審查人力沒錯那這兩個部分都是需要一些比如修改資訊系統或人力都需要時間跟金錢來挹注"},{"start":296.423,"end":325.257,"text":"那大概規劃的時間呢就是修改資訊系統跟人力的部分我們有個預估的時程嗎對 這就跟委員說我們就是因為現在就業保險法要修法管理部長要通盤檢討要增加預留領結一個月那這個部分如果要進一步如果未來要進一步更彈性化的申請方式比如說以日假日那這個就是要跟整個修法作業一起來通盤的研議更快的方式好 這是法的部分那人力的部分呢"},{"start":325.717,"end":349.618,"text":"人力的部分就是我們如果我們確定要這樣做的話我們就必須要經過這個要跟行政院來申請對好但是我們目前應該是會往這個方向來努力嗎對不對我們部長已經講我們就要延逸往更彈性的方式來處理好了解因為其實育嬰留情這件事情對於一些家長來說還是一個權益的損失因為他的年資是無法累積的是"},{"start":350.418,"end":366.124,"text":"所以為什麼民間一直不停的在倡議育嬰假因為讓他的棉絲可以被累計那我在想因為現在看起來好像沒有目前來說好像不是往育嬰假的方式在前進那是不是可以先來處理家庭照顧假可以以時為單位來"},{"start":368.165,"end":395.175,"text":"請呢因為現在一般很多的試駕公司行號也都是可以用小時來請嘛那是不是家庭照顧假就可以讓他變成小時來請因為其實有很多的家長好了像我這個年紀我有長輩嘛我可能要帶長輩去看醫生那不用請一天嘛我可能是幾個小時而已這部分是可行的嗎各位說我們確實在同盤截倒家庭照顧假往更彈性方向在規劃確實我們是積極內部在積極研議討論中我們希望到時候能夠整盤通完討論完來對外來宣布"},{"start":397.259,"end":411.853,"text":"所以現在是有考有在有這個是你們其中討論的一個方案嗎是其中一部隊從小時來講是不是我們是會往更彈性方向來討論研議好喔那剛剛有提到說好像是你們的育嬰劉植亭心希望有30天的一個彈性可以一日來請是嗎"},{"start":414.069,"end":437.146,"text":"往更彈性的方向來那我先給大家做給您做一個參考啦事實上作為一個家長你真實要育嬰的天數絕對是超過30天就算以家長都來分擔的話因為你可以算一下小孩子小學的時候幼兒園的時候腸病毒請假班上有人可能腸病毒學校就會要通令這是三四月腸病毒的旺季可是冬天還有流感"},{"start":438.206,"end":462.736,"text":"所以等於一整年我們大概其實是有將近80天會因為育兒的一些狀況尤其是在幼兒園到小學這個階段都會因為長病毒或相關的一些生病而請假所以一個家庭大概就要花80天那兩個人去分攤的話一個人至少也要40天所以我會認為這30天是不太夠的是不是有可能朝更多的天數來研議這個我們都會納入那個評議考量中"},{"start":463.516,"end":477.529,"text":"好 那也希望那個年紀的部分也可以放寬啦也可以往這個方向來討論好嗎是 這個部分我們現在只有到三歲嘛可是問題是小學一二年級還是腸病毒的高峰期嘛 好不好是 了解 我們也會全盤來考量謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝張委員 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Science & Medicine的一個職場文化研究，它其實就追蹤了臺灣的5,000名科技行業的女性，在生育後3年內離職率高達58%，男性申請育嬰假的比率大概31.2%，男性實際參與育兒的大概只有12%。其實我也知道這個職場的改革對於生育率其實某種程度是會有一些些影響，去年我們做了一些彈性育嬰的試辦計畫，其實也有一些檢討：第一個，當時有講到共通性與整體性的一些建議；第二個就是行政制度與實務上面的困難；第三個就是雇主管理考量；第四個是針對家庭照顧假與照顧對象的具體建議。這邊我先講一下，第一個部分，大家在講的就是行政程序太過複雜了，現在以民間來說，他們都希望可以用小時來請，但是現在是以日來請，好像行政程序上面都會相對的困難，所以我想要了解接下來我們要怎麼來解決這個行政效率的問題。"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，因為這個是育嬰留職停薪，它不是一個假的概念，而且最重要的是他必須要依照這個規定的程序去申請育嬰留職停薪津貼，就是到勞保局去申請津貼。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["李次長健鴻：不過勞保局其實去年開始就已經簡化其申請程序了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒有錯，可是試辦之後大家的結論還是太複雜，所以我們接下來……"],["李次長健鴻：我們今年會進一步擴大，我們目前是可以上網申請，那今年會進一步擴大讓上網申請的流程再更快一點。"],["張委員雅琳：所以行政程序上面，針對於勞保局這邊都不會有什麼問題嗎？就處理這些分量來說。因為如果你接下來都是以日、甚至是以小時來申請的話，都沒有問題嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，我們這個內部有討論過，如果要改成以日來申請的話，那麼需要修改資訊系統，還有必須要增加審查人力。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["李次長健鴻：比如修改資訊系統或人力都需要時間跟金錢來挹注。"],["張委員雅琳：那大概規劃的時間呢？就是修改資訊系統跟人力的部分，你們有個預估的時程嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，因為現在就業保險法要修法，剛剛有講要通盤檢討、要增加育嬰留停的時間一個月，這個部分如果未來要進一步、有更彈性化的申請方式，比如說以日……那這個就要跟整個修法作業一起來做通盤的研議如何有更快的方式。"],["張委員雅琳：這是法的部分，那人力的部分呢？"],["李次長健鴻：人力的部分，如果我們確定要這樣做的話，我們就必須要跟行政院來申請。"],["張委員雅琳：好，但是我們目前應該是會往這個方向來努力，對不對？"],["李次長健鴻：部長已經講，我們就要研議往更彈性的方式來處理。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。其實育嬰留停這件事情對於一些家長來說還是一個權益的損失，因為他的年資是無法累積的，所以為什麼民間一直不停地在倡議育嬰假？因為要讓他的年資可以被累計。我在想，因為現在看起來好像不是往育嬰假的方式在前進，那是不是可以先來處理家庭照顧假可以以時為單位來請呢？因為現在的事假在一般很多公司行號也都是可以用小時來請，那家庭照顧假是否也可以讓它變成以小時來請？因為其實有很多的家長，以我這個年紀來講，我有長輩，我可能要帶長輩去看醫生，那不必請一天，我可能是請幾個小時而已，這部分是可行的嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我們在通盤檢討家庭照顧假往更彈性的方向規劃，我們內部確實在積極研議討論中，希望到時候在通盤討論完之後再來對外來宣布。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個是你們其中討論的一個方案嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：是，其中一部分。"],["張委員雅琳：以小時來講，是不是？"],["李次長健鴻：我們是往更彈性的方向來討論、研議。"],["張委員雅琳：好，剛剛提到說好像是你們的育嬰留職停薪希望有30天的一個彈性，可以以日來請，是嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：往更彈性的方向來……"],["張委員雅琳：往這個方向嗎？那我先給大家、給您做一個參考。事實上作為一個家長，你真實要育嬰的天數絕對是超過30天，就算家長都來分擔的話。因為你可以算一下，小孩子幼兒園的時候，可能因腸病毒請假，班上有人可能腸病毒，學校就要通令，三、四月是腸病毒的旺季，可是冬天還有流感，所以等於一整年我們其實是有將近80天會因為育兒的一些狀況、尤其是在幼兒園到小學這個階段都會因為腸病毒或生病而請假。所以一個家庭大概就要花80天，那兩個人去分擔的話，一個人至少也要40天，所以我會認為這30天是不太夠的，是不是有可能朝更多的天數來研議？"],["李次長健鴻：這個我們都會納入考量中。"],["張委員雅琳：好，希望年紀的部分也可以放寬、也可以往這個方向來討論，好嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：是。這個部分……"],["張委員雅琳：現在只有到3歲，問題是小學一、二年級還是腸病毒的高峰期，好不好？"],["李次長健鴻：是，了解，我們也會全盤的考量，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員、謝謝次長。","接續我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9000e3617f9bf8c818347542dab5946a2243cf129e64e549d19f1150b2f0eab0c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:01:31 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那請李部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":18.559,"end":46.977,"text":"部長好李委員你好辛苦了這個賴總統有17項的這個國安因應的策略那其中有跟文化部有相關的我看了一下有一個是加強輔導獎勵國內影視及文創產業的二指中國借文化統戰削弱台灣的主體性那另外一個是強化輔導管理在中發展影藝的從業人員那這兩點我想請教一下部長"},{"start":47.617,"end":51.412,"text":"那現在的這個因應的策略跟作為是什麼"},{"start":52.963,"end":80.529,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題我們有兩個方向一個就是剛剛第一個說要強大台灣自己文化的主體性包括影視跟文創產業這一點其實我們這幾年一直朝這個方向在做包括用國發基金的100億現在第二個100億去投下對影視方面的一些補助還有在文學 漫畫 音樂各方面"},{"start":81.209,"end":95.898,"text":"我們只有在這種方面讓我們的文化產業很蓬勃的話我們才能夠留住我們的所有的藝術家跟文化人那我其實在這短短的十個月我日子過得好快"},{"start":96.778,"end":124.997,"text":"十個月內其實我有擬定很多很多讓文化人有感覺他自己有被尊重的一些一些辦法這點我會努力的來推第二個講到更具體的就是針對中國藝人台灣藝人去中國發出那些言論過去我們完全沒有針對某一個藝人做出什麼懲罰那現在我們要加強就是對於他的言行的了解如果他在"},{"start":125.757,"end":149.248,"text":"中國大陸因為有一些行為他的言論是跟商業合作之外還有條件的或者是跟有一些組織合作的原來我們對這個都非常的不想去了解現在看這個情況我們想要去了解然後或者他已經取得大陸身份的我們會把這些意見提供給陸委會列在一個"},{"start":150.408,"end":177.39,"text":"他們本來就有一個管理辦法就是說台灣藝人到中國大陸要注意什麼那文化部會加這幾條跟他們一起討論好 那我具體來問部長好了在這個去年的十月中國的聯合力艦的演習在軍演的期間就有一些藝人轉發台灣自古就是中國的領土然後這是有蠻多藝人就跟著這個中國在軍演期間就轉發這是央視的"},{"start":179.392,"end":200.254,"text":"然後在今年的3月呢 中國的外交部長王毅 他說中國台灣省把台灣列入這個中國的部分 中國台灣省我們有很多藝人呢 也轉貼了台灣閉歸的貼文那請問一下 那這個有符合這個相關的規定那是不是要提供給陸委會來做查處咧"},{"start":201.977,"end":210.839,"text":"我每次聽到說台灣屬於中國的一部分這句話我其實每次都心裡覺得好難過是因為8000年前 冰河時期"},{"start":212.703,"end":240.146,"text":"兩邊還會相通動物植物相通八千年後的併合漸漸融化之後台灣從來沒有屬於過中國的版圖那當他們發出這樣言論的時候我其實也非常難過因為這些人都是台灣的環境中所培養出來的一些自由泥土中長大的但是他們配合央視啊配合軍演啊所以我們會去了解這些言論有沒有觸及到兩岸人民條例因為我們畢竟是一個法治的國家"},{"start":242.567,"end":264.86,"text":"按照你們現在的做法就是把這些藝人相關的言論把它收集完之後然後再按照兩岸人民關係條例由陸委會來做處理嗎是不是我想我們會配合他一起來瞭解甚至於多瞭解一些他言論的背後是不是有計畫的而且是有拿到錢的而且不是一個普通散業行為的而且不只是一個"},{"start":265.88,"end":276.173,"text":"既然理想不得已的發言所以我剛剛講的那些具體的例子那部長您的看法如何有沒有違反到這一個在台灣的藝人應該講的一些言論"},{"start":280.899,"end":304.002,"text":"因為我們兩岸人民條例裡面有一個非常具體的33之一條所以您剛剛問我的問題 我們還是要回到法律層面去檢視那這點我們會跟陸委會討論就是33之一條嘛 還有講得很清楚不得與中共黨政軍從事任何形式的合作行為嘛所以我剛剛特別是提到說軍演 提到央視 講到國防部 講到外交部嘛"},{"start":305.014,"end":312.65,"text":"他們這些在中國的台灣藝人等於是配合他們的黨政軍來從事這些附和的言論嘛"},{"start":314.019,"end":341.854,"text":"所以我的意思是說既然賴總統已經有這一個因應策略下去那這些也是跟文化部有相關的是沒錯文化部這邊可能還要再更積極一點是好那再請教最後一點時間部長知道說這一個一個前台灣八旗出版社的總編輯傅查理言賀他因為這個所謂的煽動分裂國家罪這個被中共"},{"start":342.834,"end":368.772,"text":"這也被中國抓起來 也判了三年那他分裂了 煽動了分裂國家什麼罪因為他是一個中配 他在台灣然後他出版了一些書 那這些書可能不是中共所喜歡的可能不符合中國現在的這個史觀然後呢 就被 因為他要回去註銷他的中國身份證 那就被抓起來了那我請教一下 部長 你知道這件事情"},{"start":369.853,"end":393.09,"text":"不但知道那時候還有聲援那對於他現在 因為他是在台灣喔 他不是說在中國那如果在中國他出版什麼書 被中國抓起來了 那可能中國有中國的法律他是在台灣耶 他是在台灣 他出版了這些書那如果說因為在台灣出版這些書 回到中國就被抓起來了那不代表說中國的這個長臂管轄權就深入到台灣來了嗎"},{"start":394.051,"end":407.336,"text":"那以後台灣的文化人、出版人所有台灣的藝文界人士甚至包含現在有拍一些支持大罷免的藝文界人士這些導演會不會到了中國之後就被抓起來我覺得你說最可怕的地方就是他變成是一個殘弊管理你不見得是要在中國對 他在台灣耶 他拐到台灣來了耶"},{"start":419.301,"end":440.791,"text":"然後他這樣的方式就是讓你一直讓你恐嚇你你不能有這個言論那明明台灣是一個言論最自由的國家可是偏偏他連這個他都要干預所以複雜被抓到這件事情大家都不敢想像他可以用這個理由抓他那接下來咧接下來這樣會不會影響到說兩岸的這一個文化的交流"},{"start":442.162,"end":465.871,"text":"就是你知道台灣人因為這樣子有可能我在台灣我出版了什麼書我在台灣發表什麼樣的言論甚至我這次大罷免我去中國就可能被抓起來了啊我就被舉報了啊有沒有可能當然是有可能啊那文化部未來要怎麼做咧文化部會不斷的提醒這個去中國的不管是"},{"start":467.461,"end":492.274,"text":"除了台商之外我們跟文化有關的藝人或者是藝術家去中國的話我們會跟他講一些提醒他一些像剛才講到的這些問題我們盡量做到提醒我是希望說剛賴總統提到的這些因應的策略文化部應該是要更積極來做處理關於複查這部分的話很明顯他的長臂管轄權已經升到台灣了已經試圖影響"},{"start":494.815,"end":501.364,"text":"台灣的言論自由 出版自由了我覺得這部分要請文化部要多加關心跟注意一下是是是謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 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麻煩請呂次長好 次長好今天少子女化友善托育非常重要但本席也另外關心也很重要是我們兒少托育的部分我想在針對不管是過去發生凱凱案大家看到的這樣的一個社會矚目焦點以外"},{"start":30.1,"end":55.707,"text":"我覺得更重要的是我們要怎麼樣能夠來做精進所以幾個部分我想還是利用這個機會來跟次長確定一下我們未來修法或是立法的一個方向在凱凱案的這個過程裡面其實凸顯兩個部分一個是安置出養制度的漏洞出養評估沒有明確的指引以及安置能量不足還有跨縣市的資訊不足這是第一個部分您麥克風可以按開好嗎"},{"start":57.388,"end":78.325,"text":"那第二個部分其實就是凱凱案件的這個犯行嚴厲而且頑固的保姆他沒有在第一時間托育監管的時候保姆的監督如果說能夠事先發現這個保姆真的有問題的話其實可能可以避免這樣的一個慘案那就針對這兩個部分第一個"},{"start":80.868,"end":91.145,"text":"我們現在也希望討論說能夠修正兒童跟少年福利權益保障法堵絕個案的一個漏接就是中央跟地方跨機關的資料要全面能夠間接"},{"start":92.059,"end":110.067,"text":"安養機關出售養媒合單位的管理權責也應該要修法明確寫在法令上是沒錯市長您可以接受可以沒問題好那現在目前我們兒少權利法裡面也確實就是朝委員您剛剛所建議的這方向來進行這個相關的修法是所以我們有可能在這個會期就一起來討論這個部分嗎"},{"start":112.088,"end":132.658,"text":"我們現在目前有兩個重要的法,一個是托育服務法這是我第二個問題,你先講了這個部分我跟委員報告我們現在目前已經送到行政院了托育服務法也就是外界可能有人叫他做兒少托育專法或是托育服務法就是針對這個部分來做一個"},{"start":135.819,"end":158.806,"text":"專法的立法原先是在那個他本來就相關的一些這一個罰則啦那些是他本來只是在兒少權益法裡面而且基本上他條目大概只有大概兩三大概兩條而已那我們現在我們有有鑒於現在目前剛剛委員所關心的這一問題還有現在其實0到20歲大家也都非常關心所以我們特別我們現在目前這個部分我們就把它特別獨立出來變成一個專法整個所謂的"},{"start":160.646,"end":182.502,"text":"已經送到行政院我們已經送到行政院那現在目前陳中正委現在目前在主持還有我們現在目前跟地方政府之間還有一些需要協調那我們希望我想我們這個應該在這個會期這個會期就會送到大院來好這是第一點那另外第二個就是說有關兒少權益法我們現在目前也在緊鑼密鼓跟就是說提出修法對沒錯那這個部分"},{"start":184.884,"end":185.505,"text":"所以一定會有願板"},{"start":206.802,"end":228.343,"text":"一定會有嘛還有兒少托育專法現在說要行政院本席也會提出我們的版本我也希望在這個會期裡面真真正正能夠趕快送來到立法院我們針對兒少托育專法來做實質的討論那我也拜託召委我想召委過去到現在也都很關心這個兒少權益所以一定也會盡速的排案"},{"start":229.263,"end":256.809,"text":"到時候也感謝再拜託委員對於這部分給我們指正謝謝只要好的法令對的法令我們一定都會支持感謝委員謝謝另外第二個部分我想大家也都看到黃姓藝人我完全不想講他的名字是因為他所做的行為以及看這個相關兒少性私密影像越了解之後越發覺說這絕對是任何人都沒有辦法接受的甚至他的判決書出來裡面"},{"start":258.467,"end":269.553,"text":"其中有一位未滿14歲的未成年少女她還被被點名被會員高級會員點名這個判決書講判決書會員點名然後做"},{"start":273.095,"end":301.612,"text":"性侵等相關的一個事件然後拍成影像然後供這一些會員來觀看這就是令人髮指令人髮指沒有辦法接受沒錯好那我們在針對這個部分之後我們之後也有做相關的一些修法那其中更重要就是行政院之前有頒布性別暴力防治國家行動計畫那其中我們就是加強可以主動尋往的機制其實某種程度上主動尋往就如同現實社會裡面"},{"start":302.682,"end":324.604,"text":"警察主動去偵辦案件沒錯沒錯看到哪裡有可能是有治安的死角我們主動去偵辦是的如果能夠早點發現治安死角來破獲的話也就不會像這個黃信義人他可能這一次的事件是之後有人舉報或是什麼才爆發但是過去已經長達那麼久的一個犯罪行為"},{"start":325.385,"end":342.203,"text":"好 那我想請教一下一個月前有一個新聞是說因為我們要跟Google來做對接可能沒有辦法那但是主動選完還是要做到目前為止我們的進度好 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部長好市委員好先請教江次長美國財政部長點名全世界骯髒15國4月2號是關稅重點柯震對象如果對於沒有提出讓美國滿意的做法就會以可以高關稅昨天也已經宣布了對台的汽車關稅要提高到25%"},{"start":41.175,"end":53.812,"text":"那這15國其實就是美國的貿易逆差國就是美國的前15大貿易夥伴那台灣去年對美國出差648億創歷史新高那一定會被課以高關稅"},{"start":56.355,"end":70.625,"text":"我們的電子製造業、半導體、重工業、農產都非常不利那如果不按照美國期待的方向調整4月2號川普的關稅大禮一定會嚴重影響我國的整體發展"},{"start":71.866,"end":87.759,"text":"那想要這個15國的黑名單要從這黑名單除名就是要對美國要減少輸出嘛對不對然後要增加對於美國的採購所以我就想到說我們那個中油"},{"start":89.854,"end":114.004,"text":"簽署的那個天然氣買賣的意向書這個部分是不是就是我們可以讓美國滿意的做法可不可以就此就用這個來說想美國對台對美的一個貿易順差可以減少多少是跟委員報告第一點所謂的骯髒15國是他的到底包括哪些國家是"},{"start":116.059,"end":138.332,"text":"台灣排第六名我們台灣對美是排第六名但是我們包括在15個國之內是國外的媒體自行排列的那委員有關心到中油跟阿拉斯加有簽一個液化天然氣的意向書我們在裡面有表達我們願意"},{"start":139.272,"end":146.467,"text":"增加對於阿拉斯加的需要採購因為阿拉斯加如果直接運營天然氣的採購"},{"start":148.12,"end":170.096,"text":"天然氣經由阿拉斯加到台灣的話它是不用經過巴拿馬運河而且騎乘會比較短這樣也可以擴大我們對於天然氣的穩定供應就這樣子可以縮短對美的順差嘛對不對好那這一次台灣產品的一個關稅調整那對於我們經濟發展是很大的衝擊不管經貿科技供應面安全"},{"start":172.107,"end":190.207,"text":"我們跟美國都保持很密切的合作我們的護國神山台積電宣布在美國投資高達1650億美金但是一樣我們現在一樣被美國可以高關稅那代表我們在國際貿易的談判中是屬於非常被動的甚至於是"},{"start":191.448,"end":210.883,"text":"任人宰割啦我們現在只能知道說4月2號4月2號川普政府就會正式的宣布他的關稅政策那除了昨天宣布的這個汽車關稅之外那其他的包括涵蓋範圍影響層面我們好像都不知道所以我想請教莊部長財政部莊部長那針對這個你們就是說"},{"start":219.369,"end":241.834,"text":"通訊產品 機體電路 螺絲帽等對美國輸出的出口的前三十大貨品你們已經有進行砂盤推演有評估說這一波的關稅可能帶來的影響跟對應策略是不是部長你可不可以在這裡說明一下你們的這個推演是什麼樣的內容"},{"start":242.974,"end":259.079,"text":"還有因應的策略是什麼我們先會對這個從美國進口以及或者是出口美國的主要貨品都去做一個盤點另外我們從出口到美國的許多的一些品項其實零關稅佔了居多我們這邊提到比如說資通訊產品還有電子零組件雙方都是零關稅的一個部分因為我們要掌握這個具體的衝擊數據"},{"start":270.488,"end":276.75,"text":"具體的衝擊當然最後要看美方他所4月2號宣布的相應的反制跟這些補救措施都有在擬定嗎"},{"start":293.014,"end":314.523,"text":"跟委員報告所以我們在行政院有一個台美經貿工作小組一個專案會議都非常密集的開會對所有的相關訊息以及對於有關的一些衝擊以及政府可採取的相關的一些措施都在那個經貿工作小組裡面去討論以及研擬方案那經濟部姜次長也請你回答一下剛剛我提問的部分"},{"start":316.485,"end":343.7,"text":"分別回答是我們相關的對策的研議一樣有策略有有意義有而且都是跨部會討論那可不可以告訴我們是什麼怎麼實施因為這個還要涉及未來談判所以首先要看這個美國公布的對等關稅的國家產品別是什麼但是我們就各種情境也有做沙盤推演跟模擬所以這涉及到未來跟美方是不是要談判如果要談判的話我們採取的策略為何好"},{"start":345.182,"end":357.564,"text":"好那個江次長先請回謝謝總部長再接著再請教是那個美國昨天宣布說對於汽車關稅提高到25%對不對"},{"start":359.841,"end":365.603,"text":"先以汽車關稅來講 其他都還不知道目前我國的進口關稅是17.5%再加上貨物稅25% 30%所以我們對於美國的進口汽車是高達37.5% 42.5% 52.5% 是不是"},{"start":387.232,"end":402.948,"text":"第一個就是說我們出美國提高他的一個汽車關稅25%其實這個大家討論很多啦就是說現在來講已經不合時宜啦其實去年我們就也都有提過說這項關稅要來調整而且應該要大幅度的調整"},{"start":405.791,"end":420.812,"text":"當時沒有被列入 被納入考慮 沒有納入大家的一個討論那不如就是說 趁這一次的機會趁這一次的機會 也是滿足人民的期待來回應川普的要求部長你的看法"},{"start":422.045,"end":436.524,"text":"各種情境以及運營的方案都會在我們的討論裡面而且也涉及到未來的一個洽商跟談判日本韓國的稅率都比我們低日本甚至零利率"},{"start":438.854,"end":465.587,"text":"可是我們台灣現在的進口車已經超過50%以上在台灣市售的這些車輛但是我們買車卻要以不同的價格在美國買一部車可能90萬在台灣買要100多萬那如果更高的那差距又更多 對不對所以我們台灣購車是剛性的需求每個家庭都要有車"},{"start":466.847,"end":490.119,"text":"我們家沒有捷運我們整個台中市只有一條捷運目前所以沒有車是不行的對不對那買車這個是剛性的需求所以必須要有車那現在台灣被納入這個黑名單我覺得現在就是改革最好的時機所以在這邊跟部長反映就是說這個降低進口車關稅是全民的心聲所以"},{"start":490.979,"end":519.654,"text":"提出降稅的方案給我們也在現在這個時機來因應整個對美國的一個粗糙的一個我們長期對美國粗糙那現在做一個調整也可以符合人民的期待趁這個機會可不可以了解委員非常關心這個議題也有其他委員都關心我想這個關稅也涉及到我們整個國內的產業的發展以及消費者的一個權益這個部分委員的建議我們都會納入研議是"},{"start":520.285,"end":527.577,"text":"好的 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝顏委員的資訊 下一位請廖先生委員資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1255,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（12時52分）主席、各位列席官員。主席，有請經濟部江次長。"],["主席：請經濟部江次長。"],["顏委員寬恒：還有財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長、部長好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：先請教江次長。美國財政部長點名全世界骯髒15國，4月2號將是關稅重點課徵對象，如果沒有提出讓美國滿意的作法，就會課以高關稅，昨天也已經宣布對臺汽車關稅要提高到25%。這15國其實就是美國的貿易逆差國、也就是美國前15大貿易夥伴，而臺灣去年對美國出超648億美元，創歷史新高，一定會被課以高關稅啦！對我們的電子製造業、半導體、重工業、農產都非常不利，如果不按照美國期待的方向調整，4月2號川普的關稅大禮一定會嚴重影響我國的整體發展。","想要從這個15國黑名單除名，就是要對美國減少輸出嘛！對不對？然後也要增加對美國的採購，所以我就想到中油簽署的天然氣買賣意向書，這個部分是否就是我們可以讓美國滿意的作法？可不可以用這個做法就此縮小臺對美貿易順差？可以減少多少？"],["江次長文若：跟委員報告：第一點，所謂骯髒15國到底包括哪些國家……"],["顏委員寬恒：臺灣排第6名喔！"],["江次長文若：臺灣對美排第6名的是享有貿易順差，但我們包不包括在15國之內，那是國外媒體自行排列的。至於委員關心到中油跟阿拉斯加簽署的一項液化天然氣意向書，我們在裡面有表達願意增加對阿拉斯加的石油採購，因為阿拉斯加如果直接運油……對不起，是天然氣的採購，如果天然氣經由阿拉斯加到臺灣的話，是不用經過巴拿馬運河，而且期程會比較短，這樣也可以擴大我們對於天然氣的穩定供應……"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦！就是這樣可以縮短對美順差嘛！對不對？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。","這次臺灣產品的關稅調整對於我們的經濟發展是很大的衝擊。不管在經貿、科技、供應鏈安全各層面，我們跟美國都保持很密切的合作，我們的護國神山台積電宣布在美國投資高達1,650億美金，但是我們現在一樣被美國課以高關稅，代表我們在國際貿易的談判中屬於非常被動的、甚至於是任人宰割啦！我們現在只能知道4月2號川普政府就會正式宣布他的關稅政策，除了昨天宣布的汽車關稅之外，其他部分包括涵蓋範圍、影響層面，我們好像都不知道，所以我想請教財政部莊部長，針對通訊產品、積體電路、螺絲帽等對美國輸出、出口的前三大貨品，你們已經進行沙盤推演、評估出這波關稅可能帶來的影響跟對應策略，那麼部長可不可以在這裡說明一下你們的推演是什麼樣的內容，還有因應策略是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們會先針對從美國進口或者是出口美國的主要貨品都做盤點。另外，我國出口到美國的品項以零關稅所占居多，比如說我們在這邊提到的資通訊產品還有電子零組件，雙方都是零關稅的。"],["顏委員寬恒：那有沒有掌握具體的衝擊數據？"],["莊部長翠雲：具體的衝擊當然最後要看美方4月2號所宣布的……"],["顏委員寬恒：有沒有掌握啦？剛剛很多委員都在問嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，我們對於所有出口值與數量都有掌握，如果美國提高相對應的關稅，對我們哪一些產業會有衝擊，這些都有掌握。"],["顏委員寬恒：相應的反制跟補救措施都有在擬定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們在行政院有一個臺美經貿工作小組、一個專案會議，都非常密集地開會，所有相關訊息、有關衝擊，以及政府可採取的相關措施，都在那個經貿工作小組裡面討論以及研擬方案。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。","經濟部江次長，也請你回答一下剛剛我提問的部分，分別回答。"],["江次長文若：是。我們對於相關對策的研擬……"],["顏委員寬恒：一樣有策略？"],["江次長文若：有。"],["顏委員寬恒：有因應？"],["江次長文若：有，而且都是跨部會討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：那可不可以告訴我們是什麼、怎麼實施？"],["江次長文若：因為還涉及未來談判，所以首先要看美國公布的對等關稅國家、產品別是什麼。但是我們就各種情境也有做沙盤推演跟模擬，涉及未來跟美方是不是要談判，以及如果要談判，我們採取的策略為何。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，江次長先請回。"],["江次長文若：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：莊部長，我接著再請教，美國昨天宣布對汽車關稅提高到25%，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：美國是這樣宣布，對。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是先以汽車關稅來講。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：其他都還不知道，對不對？那在臺灣，目前我國的進口關稅是17.5%，再加上貨物稅25%、30%，所以我國對於美國進口汽車的關稅高達37.5%、42.5%、52.5%，是不是？就是有這麼……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，如委員所提的，第一個就是美國提高它的汽車關稅25%……"],["顏委員寬恒：部長，其實這個大家討論很多啦！現在來講已經不合時宜了，去年我們也都提過這項關稅要調整，而且應該大幅度地調整。當時沒有被納入考慮、沒有納入大家的討論，那不如就趁這一次的機會，也是滿足人民的期待，來回應川普的要求。部長你的看法為何？"],["莊部長翠雲：各種情境以及預擬的方案都會在我們的討論裡面，而且也涉及到未來的洽商跟談判，我們都會納入。"],["顏委員寬恒：日本、韓國的稅率都比我們低，日本甚至是零關稅，我們臺灣現在的市售車輛中，進口車已經超過50%以上，但是我們買車卻是不同的價格，在美國買一部車可能要90萬元，在臺灣買同樣的車卻要一百多萬元，如果是價格更高的，差距又更多，且在臺灣購車是剛性的需求，每個家庭都要有車啊！我們家沒有捷運，整個臺中市目前只有一條捷運，所以沒有車是不行的，對不對？所以買車是剛性的需求，必須要有車，現在臺灣被納入這個黑名單，因此我覺得現在就是改革最好的時機，所以在這邊跟部長反映，就是降低進口車關稅是全民的心聲，可不可以在現在這個時機提出降稅的方案？趁這個機會做一個調整，一方面是就我們長期對美國出超做一個因應，也可以符合人民的期待。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員非常關心這個議題，其他委員也都很關心，我想這個關稅涉及到我們整個國內產業的發展以及消費者的權益，這個部分的委員建議我們都會納入研議。"],["顏委員寬恒：好的，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員的質詢。","下一位請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00001"}}},{"id":"159750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90093ac639f9e637d061a80f058510e45ac3cf129e64e549d19d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:44:54 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詹宇宇 詹宇宇委員他不發言 下一位請邱志偉委員諮詢請"},{"start":41.718,"end":64.917,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是有請央行副總裁央行的主副總裁財政部 那個經濟部的次長跟農業部的次長經濟部江次長經濟部還有農業部農業部的杜次長總裁我仔細看您的報告副總裁"},{"start":65.919,"end":91.84,"text":"直接看中央銀行的報告第二頁跟第三頁幾個敘述讓我覺得比較印象深刻這可能是未來美國要對台灣實行關稅的相關依據就是說台灣對美國貿易粗糙較大需審慎因應可能的貿易爭端你第二頁也提到第三頁也提到"},{"start":93.201,"end":120.474,"text":"第三頁的下半段所以這個問題就是說台灣對美國的貿易粗糙較大那你要避免美國因為粗糙較大對你執行關稅加強關稅所以你必須要把粗糙的規模縮小對不對粗糙的規模縮小大概就是減少出口跟增加進口沒有錯吧"},{"start":121.701,"end":144.631,"text":"有可能就是減少出口跟增加進口減少出口我又看到經濟部的報告經濟部報告怎麼寫呢台美之間的這個順差是反映供應鏈的移轉這供應鏈移轉是一個現在進行式而且會逐漸加大所以對美國的出口不可能減少只會增加預備"},{"start":146.721,"end":157.459,"text":"那你唯一可以降低這個粗糙規模就是增加進口 對不對政策手段啦 增加進口好 我提到增加進口有很多部位都有提到"},{"start":158.499,"end":180.953,"text":"要加強對美的採購從國防部的軍事採購那為什麼請經濟部跟農業部呢我先請教一下經濟部江次長您也是國貿局出身未來戰略進步立場怎麼樣增加進口對美國的進口有哪些品項"},{"start":182.253,"end":191.219,"text":"是可以朝這方向去努力的是 各位分兩個部分來報告第一個呢是我們希望能夠增加對於美國天然氣的"},{"start":192.304,"end":219.198,"text":"採購所以在天然氣是一項另外我們也有詢問我們相關業者的意見可能會針對我們的業者對於這個能源的產品航太的產品等等都有興趣所以經濟部規劃在下半年的時候會在美國的南部跟讓我們的潛在的買主跟美國的供應商來做這個"},{"start":220.938,"end":244.89,"text":"接洽來做洽談會你們現在行政院底下有一個台美經貿小組在做因應對不對是那您是成員嗎還是不成員我們這是跨部會的單位所以是動態的檢討你必須跟美國讓他們了解跟他們溝通台灣在未來針對哪些品項可能會加強對美國的採購"},{"start":246.11,"end":274.238,"text":"以降低對美國的這個這個粗糙規模您剛剛所提到的航太產品也可能能源 天然氣等等那還有沒有其他的呢因為這個如果有國家機密就不用講了對 這些都是可能採購的大象這是也是經濟部規劃在下半年在美國辦理的一個一個重要的活動那至於呢比較細項的部分因為這個涉及到未來跟美國進行談判"},{"start":275.003,"end":302.945,"text":"所以細項的部分我們就不便對外說明好 那你要降低到多少規模比如說日本跟南韓是我們主要競爭對手我們的初超是大概740億日本是685 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透露出有可能的一個方向有可能有朝向這個對我們增加關稅那未來我們受到衝擊哪些重要的品項你們可能要問以稠薄先去了解時間超過很多了"},{"start":452.64,"end":452.86,"text":"謝謝邱委員的諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1190,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請央行副總裁。"],["主席：請央行朱副總裁。"],["邱委員志偉：財政部……不！經濟部次長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["邱委員志偉：請農業部次長。"],["主席：請經濟部江次長。"],["邱委員志偉：除了經濟部，還有農業部。"],["主席：請農業部杜次長。"],["邱委員志偉：總裁，我仔細看了你的報告……"],["主席：是副總裁啦！"],["邱委員志偉：直接看中央銀行報告，第2頁跟第3頁有幾個敘述讓我覺得比較印象深刻，這可能是美國未來要對臺灣實行關稅課徵的相關依據啦！就是臺灣對美國的貿易出超較大，須審慎因應可能的貿易爭端，而且第2頁提到、第3頁也提到，在第3頁的下半段，所以問題就是臺灣對美國的貿易出超較大。那我們為了要避免美國因為出超較大對我們執行加強關稅，就必須把出超規模縮小，對不對？出超規模要縮小，大概就是減少出口跟增加進口，沒有錯吧？有可能的就是減少出口跟增加進口。","關於減少出口，我又看到經濟部的報告。經濟部的報告怎麼寫呢？臺美之間的順差是反映供應鏈的移轉，這樣的供應鏈移轉是現在進行式，而且會逐漸加大，所以，對美國的出口不可能減少，只會增加，對不對？那唯一可以降低出超規模的方式就是增加進口，對不對？政策手段就是增加進口。好，對於增加進口，很多部會都提到要加強對美採購，包括國防部的軍事採購。我為什麼請經濟部跟農業部呢？我先請教一下經濟部江次長，您也是國貿局出身喔！"],["江次長文若：是。"],["邱委員志偉：站在經濟部的立場，未來怎麼樣增加對美國的進口？有哪些品項是可以朝這個方向努力的？"],["江次長文若：跟委員分兩個部分報告：第一個是我們希望能夠增加對美國天然氣的採購，所以在……"],["邱委員志偉：天然氣是一項。還有嗎？"],["江次長文若：天然氣是一項。另外，我們也詢問相關業者的意見，可能會針對……我們的業者對於能源產品、航太產品等等都有興趣，所以經濟部規劃下半年的時候在美國南部讓潛在買主跟美國的供應商接洽、辦洽談會。"],["邱委員志偉：行政院底下現在有一個臺美經貿小組在做因應，對不對？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["邱委員志偉：您是成員嗎？還是部長為成員？"],["江次長文若：是，這是跨部會的單位。"],["邱委員志偉：所以是動態檢討，你們必須跟美國說明，讓他們了解、跟他們溝通臺灣在未來針對哪些品項可能會加強對美採購，以降低對美國的出超規模。包括您剛剛所提到的，航太產品有可能，以及能源、天然氣等等。還有沒有其他的呢？"],["江次長文若：因為這個……"],["邱委員志偉：如果有國家機密就不用講了。"],["江次長文若：這些都是可能採購的大項，也是經濟部規劃下半年在美國辦理的重要活動。至於比較細項的部分，因為涉及未來跟美國進行談判，所以細項部分就不便對外說明。"],["邱委員志偉：好。那麼要降低到多少規模？比如說日本跟南韓是我們的主要競爭對手，我們的出超大概是740億美元，日本是685億美元，南韓是660億美元，如果我們降到南韓、日本的水準，美國未來對我們課徵關稅會不會就用比較和緩的方式呢？"],["江次長文若：跟委員報告，我們現在還是要等4月2號的報告出來之後再看，因為現在還不太確定到底會對哪些國家或者哪些產品……"],["邱委員志偉：那我想請教一下，有沒有沙盤推演？"],["江次長文若：有，我們有進行沙盤推演。"],["邱委員志偉：對各種樣態、各種做法、策略都有沙盤推演？"],["江次長文若：有。我們也去研究競爭對手國的相關產品項目。"],["邱委員志偉：你所謂的競爭對手國就是日本、韓國跟中國嘛！"],["江次長文若：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但是我們的出超規模比他們都還大欸！我是說比起日本、韓國啦！"],["江次長文若：對，但是韓國比較集中在特定產業。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我只要確定你們都有相關準備就好，謝謝經濟部次長。","另外，請農業部杜次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：農產品也是問題。農產品是美國對我們出超多啦！"],["杜次長文珍：對，28億美元。"],["邱委員志偉：那未來有可能再增加嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣講，其實全球氣候變遷下，各國……我們主要進口最大宗當然是黃小玉嘛！因應全世界的氣候變遷，如果我們的畜牧產業能夠有長期布局，應該也有好處，所以我們的飼料業者，黃豆、小麥、玉米這些進口業者，他們是有這樣的規劃，也就是未來穩定供應黃小玉的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：所以量會再增加？"],["杜次長文珍：他們正在評估。"],["邱委員志偉：那品項呢？"],["杜次長文珍：應該也是黃豆、玉米這些必要的品項。"],["邱委員志偉：主席啊！再給我35秒就好了。"],["主席：我給你很多時間欸！"],["邱委員志偉：請問央行跟財金部會，所謂媒體所說的骯髒15國，事實上，這不是官方的……"],["主席：請副總裁。"],["邱委員志偉：副總裁，所謂的骯髒15國，這不是官方的文字嘛！對不對？這是媒體的文字吧？"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，應該是……"],["邱委員志偉：「Dirty 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上次本席在這邊跟您討論跟要求您的部分就是預算編列反映了政策的思想文化部在113年度的總預算有298億元可是在原住民族文化事務發展相關經費卻只有2億元僅僅佔文化部總預算的0.7%我們連1%都不到當時部長您有允諾我"},{"start":40.034,"end":64.103,"text":"你說會增加原住民族文化發展預算也會提供給本席文化部明年度也就是114年度的預算的政策報告書並且你要制定民時相符的多元文化政策而今天文化部的業務報告裡面我看到了有關原住民的政策其實也只有三項第一項在第七頁"},{"start":65.263,"end":91.944,"text":"國家語言包含原住民族語這部分只有提起沒有提出具體的執行事項第二項是在第15頁就是辦理原住民族無形文化資產輔導工作坊部長您知道嗎正是本席在2022年10月22號在這裡針對前部長李永德為了要辦理解決文資爭議落實文化資產保存工作的時候提出的也"},{"start":92.805,"end":117.158,"text":"有具體的一些落實方案然後在你的第四項第23頁裡面說到台灣原創流行音樂大獎包含了原住民族語的組別這部分也只有提起沒有具體的執行事項請問部長我想請問你一下文化部在114年度的預算用在原住民族文化發展的預算有沒有增加"},{"start":118.476,"end":144.95,"text":"如果從預算上來看我們增加了七千七百二十一萬從數字上看就多了七千七百二十一萬那其實我們的原住民的文化預算他放在每一個科目裡面他不是一個我覺得您會這麼講所以呢在今天你業務報告裡面我搜尋相關原住民的就這三項好以上我提的這些問題還有這個預算實質要放在哪裡"},{"start":146.07,"end":159.959,"text":"能不能在一個星期之內提供完整的資料還有上次你答應過我的一年之內要怎麼提到援助民族的民時相輔的多元文化政策一個禮拜提供給我好嗎已經拖了一年了"},{"start":161.4,"end":176.589,"text":"已經拖了一年了因為它有些東西是它不是一個數字它真的是涵蓋在每個項目裡面我跟委員解釋一下不用解釋了部長因為今天沒有很多的時間好不好我請你兩個禮拜給我另外我想要請教部長作為一個資深的文化工作者還有作家"},{"start":184.654,"end":201.357,"text":"您經歷過戒嚴時期的言論還有思想的限制跟審查你也經歷了、了解了這個戒嚴之後所謂的民主自由的發展而你現在更成為了中華民國行政院的文化部長"},{"start":202.378,"end":228.786,"text":"按照您的資歷您怎麼看待台灣目前有75位學者昨天所發表的聲明而這份聲明有三個重點第一個台灣民主自由正在遭到破壞跟威脅第二不要讓今日的烏克蘭明日的台灣的咒語成真第三個台灣在兩岸跟世界和平上可以扮演關鍵的角色"},{"start":229.466,"end":256.418,"text":"而這些學者他也呼籲請政府停止思想審查而我們的總統府也立刻回應了這個說明他說鼓吹對台發動侵略戰爭仇恨跟強暴的犯行已經觸犯聯合國公約明確規範的犯罪行為是對台灣自由民主國家體制的挑戰以抵觸民主跟言論自由的紅線"},{"start":257.739,"end":279.094,"text":"部長你應該很清楚民進黨長年以來推崇言論自由的象徵是誰鄭南榮先生鄭南榮先生他曾經主張百分之百的言論自由而總統府發表的回應是不是表示台灣不再有百分之百的言論自由呢"},{"start":281.048,"end":305.271,"text":"請部長很謝謝委員問這個問題因為剛剛講到75位學者發起這個他們質疑這個言論自由有被損害這點我本身非常尊重因為在言論自由的環境中每一個人他都可以表達什麼是言論自由但是我們在言論自由的環境中大家享有言論自由之後他也可能會被"},{"start":306.499,"end":335.145,"text":"一個言論不自由的國家中國一個獨裁政權他的滲透就像說誰不希望和平呢有哪一個父母親會希望台灣打戰呢你說你要戰爭還是要和平當然是和平啊可是和平不可以是一個藉口說我們為了和平所以兩岸交流言論自由最後投降也可以啊只要只要和平啊和平是最高指標可是和平如果是在一個投降的"},{"start":336.474,"end":363.126,"text":"條件下他就不是和平啊部長說完啦說完啦我非常遺憾這個對於我認識以前的文化工作人的小野我覺得你的風骨跟現在的言論是完全不一樣的最後因為時間的關係我要引用鄭南榮先生的一句話提醒部長您也提醒民進黨的朋友們這句話就是"},{"start":364.286,"end":370.811,"text":"槍口之下 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的是這個真正的幫助我們的國家我們的社會跟家庭那你們是不是去研擬多久時間給本席你們的精進方案來 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市長"},{"start":281.892,"end":298.044,"text":"因為這個部分確實最後由行政院統籌來那你們自己各部會多久時間可以出來啊那所以這個部分的話確實我們比較我們真的比較不適合幫行政院來做一個不是幫行政院待會我們的教育部跟我們的衛福部"},{"start":299.224,"end":319.81,"text":"跟我們的這個國發會勞動部這個都息息相關嘛對不對本來就是要有人來整合嘛但是你各部會在執行當中你有什麼困難你看的答案是不好的我們要怎麼樣提出方案嘛對不對不可能行政院會開會你們不提出方案嘛"},{"start":320.805,"end":330.197,"text":"是嗎如果連這一點都沒有辦法來說明來應對多久時間那我們今天報告主席我們今天是要問什麼"},{"start":332.774,"end":349.642,"text":"對不對不能各行其事不去做整合的工作嘛要整合之前還必須要各起其事的你們提出方案嘛因為這個也剛剛說就是行政院那邊我們能夠負責本部這邊我們就本部這邊我們是不是要三個月之內"},{"start":354.284,"end":355.145,"text":"教育部在這裡因為會衍生什麼少子化大學震盪還有多少要退場啊"},{"start":368.683,"end":384.855,"text":"對不對 這個非常嚴肅這環環相扣少此外 另外一個最重要的重大效應大學可能因此崩盤2014年到現在台灣已經有15所以上私立大學走向退場或者是核定停辦"},{"start":386.246,"end":409.564,"text":"而在去年2024年有10所大專院校停辦或停照耶這麼嚴肅的議題有學者還預估2034年大學會受到最大的影響到時候可能會有10所的學校還要再退場耶我好緊張喔教育部評估的數字學者已經說明出來到底是真的假的我們如果這樣子要做什麼應對好 請做說明"},{"start":411.983,"end":435.359,"text":"跟委員抱歉 因為我們今天出席的主要是聚焦在少子女 國家保護的領域少子女也會衍生啊 越來越少啊 國中也會影響 高中也會影響你看我們的主席這麼英明 把所有的向下權讓進來你把這個功課帶回去好不好 應對像這樣子的一個方案 好不好好 接下來最後一個勞動部勞動部 這個也非常的影響"},{"start":440.002,"end":466.86,"text":"勞動部少整換你的完善托育系統在我們的好的托育系統是重點是增加生育的意願對不對這也非常重要但是托育的問題沉重的支柱也是造成國人不願意生的所以在這樣的情況之下我們觀光如果是營造友善的托育空間推動企業托育系統來說那政府的動能似乎是不夠的因為依照我們的"},{"start":468.561,"end":473.743,"text":"這個性別平等法第23條的規定僱用受僱者100元以上的僱主他必須要提供第一個補乳室第二個補籍這個乳室第二個也就是托兒設施或者是適當的托兒這個設施那根據勞動部112年員工100名以上的單位有設立的會提供的僅有7成"},{"start":493.351,"end":516.682,"text":"那相信這個數字實際上會更低所以在這樣的情況之下我們有成長的空間所以我們看到這個不只是解決少子女化的問題國家跟雇主勞工提供的嬰幼兒以及兒童子女的適當托育措施我們也更應該要怎麼樣去保障"},{"start":517.662,"end":535.535,"text":"勞工工作權的一個適當措施對不對以韓國為例他除了提供貸款或者是租稅優惠的措施之外對於沒有執行的他們會強制的去輔導所以在這方面我也提出因為這個少子女化的面向"},{"start":536.696,"end":562.163,"text":"是要整體性的一個去規劃所以勞動部我也希望針對你們既然有這個芯片平等法的第23條規範你們也去精進我們要怎麼樣能夠更好或者去參考其他世界國家他們怎麼做而不是一成不變導致我們的答案都是複分的我們也不希望如此好好的滾動式的去精進方案好不好有談到滾動式精進方案請"},{"start":563.223,"end":565.208,"text":"把書面資料給本席 我們一起繼續討論好不好 謝謝好 謝謝楊委員 謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1463,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時46分）謝謝主席，我們邀請衛福部。"],["主席：請次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們今天談少子化的對策，待會包括教育部以及勞動部，有你們的就請主動上來，好不好？我們爭取時間，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，行政院規劃我國少子化對策的計畫，為學齡前幼兒托育推出增加平價的名額、降低就學費用以及發放育兒津貼，納入0到6歲國家一起養的政策。這個號稱是2.0的版本，但是跟過去一樣，就只是繼續加碼，我們看到從蔡政府到現在的賴政府，成績是年年負分，因為數字會講話，生育率與生育量都是連9年在降，該政策無效的原因到底是什麼？我們對於少子化政策失效的對策又是什麼？請做說明。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員對這個問題的關心，我剛剛有提到國際的通例，就是2000年那篇最重要的人口研究，其中有四點，一、性別平等，二、工作家庭平衡，三、公托，四、津貼，以上整體是一個多元的策略。這個部分我們目前也都在全力衝刺，當然委員您剛剛有提到，我們生育率是連9年降低，但是我們這邊會全力進行推動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，你終於說會全力的檢討跟推動，因為我們看到，我們推出未滿2歲的幼兒公共化及準公共托育的補助分別是加碼7,000元到1萬3,000元，都很好。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但本席要告訴你的是，我們理性討論事情，您的政策方向就結果論而言是負分的，沒有人願意看到這樣的答案，換句話說，必須積極去檢討，不管在2000年的項目怎麼樣，在結果你是負分的，這怎麼辦？因為這會影響到待會我們還要繼續討論的，會影響到很多的問題產生。所以我希望你們針對這個項下，目前除了加碼之外，還有什麼樣的方案？我希望聽到的是這個，真正來幫助我們的國家、社會跟家庭。能否請你們去研擬，多久時間給本席你們的精進方案？"],["呂次長建德：目前是這樣，因為這個是屬於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我多久時間？沒關係，你告訴我多久時間？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為這個是陳時中政委他在協調……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，沒關係，你告訴我多久時間好嗎？"],["呂次長建德：因為除了衛福部之外，另外也牽涉到教育部還有勞動部……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，你是很有能力的人。"],["呂次長建德：不敢、不敢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我願意這麼說你的原因是什麼呢？我們希望各政府部門，目前答案是負分的，現在的政府就是各行其是，沒有做整合的工作，我們希望把這個聲音傳達給相關權責單位，我們希望你們去精進，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好，報告委員，這樣好了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們自己本身也可以研擬方案出來。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：縱使還要再給其他單位，但仍舊必須要做。就你自己本身，你們多久可以有精進方案？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這樣好不好……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有一個方案出來，我們可以繼續討論啊！要不然今天每一個人在這邊問都得不到答案啊！我們不希望如此嘛！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這樣好不好？我回去會趕快，也非常感謝委員的關心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間？你告訴我一個時間點，沒關係，看你要多久時間，好嗎？告訴我多久時間。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，因為少子女化對策方案這個部分，在行政院這邊是做一個統籌的處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，請告訴我多久時間好嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：今年我們本來就會來做一個通盤檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是啊！本來就是要檢討啊！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，多久時間你的草案、方案可以出來？"],["周代理署長道君：因為這個部分最後確實是由行政院統籌並跨部會來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們自己各部會多久時間可以出來啊！"],["周代理署長道君：所以這個部分的話，確實我們真的比較不適合幫行政院來做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是幫行政院！教育部跟國發會、勞動部，都是息息相關，本來就是要有人來整合嘛！但是各部會在執行當中，你有什麼困難，你看到答案是不好的，你們要怎麼樣提出方案嘛！對不對？不可能行政院院會開會你們不提出方案？如果連這一點都沒有辦法來說明、來應對，報告主席，我們今天是要問什麼？對不對？不能各行其是，不去做整合的工作嘛！要整合之前，你們各部會還是必須提出方案嘛！對不對？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這樣好不好？剛剛是說由行政院那邊來整合，我們能夠負責的是本部這邊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然啊！"],["呂次長建德：就本部這邊，我們是不是在3個月之內跟委員報告？好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這樣就對了！來，教育部。"],["呂次長建德：我們就本部自己本身的政策來研擬，然後給委員一個報告，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們一起來加油。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：教育部在這裡，少子化會衍生大學震盪，還有多少要退場啊！對不對？這個非常嚴肅耶！這個是環環相扣；少子化另外一個最重要的重大效應是大學可能因此崩盤，自2014年到現在，臺灣已經有15所以上私立大學走向退場或者是核定停辦，而在去（2024）年有4所大專院校停辦或停招，這麼嚴肅的議題，有學者還預估2034年後大學會受到最大的影響，到時候可能會有10所學校還要再退場耶！我好緊張哦！教育部，評估的數字學者已經說明，到底是真的假的？如果這樣子我們要做什麼應對？請做說明。"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員抱歉，因為我們今天出席主要是聚焦在少子女化，國教署負責……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！少子女化也會衍生啊！越來越少啊！國中也會影響，高中也會影響，你看我們的主席這麼英明，把所有的項下全拉進來，你把這個功課帶回去，好不好？"],["許副署長麗娟：是，我們再轉交給高教司跟技職司。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：應對像這樣子的一個方案，好不好？","最後一個是勞動部，這個也非常的影響。勞動部，應對少子化，完善托育系統、好的托育系統是重點，會增加生育的意願，對不對？這個非常重要。但是托育問題的沉重支出也是造成國人不願意生的原因，所以在這樣的情況之下，我們如果光是以營造友善托育空間、推動企業托育系統來說，政府的動能似乎是不夠的。","依照性別工作平等法第二十三條的規定，僱用受僱者100人以上的雇主，他必須要提供第一個，哺（集）乳室；第二個，托兒設施或者是適當的托兒措施。但根據勞動部統計，112年員工100名以上的單位，有設立或提供的僅有七成，相信這個數字實際上會更低啦！在這樣的情況之下，我們有成長的空間，所以我們看到，這個不只是解決少子女化的問題，國家及雇主提供給勞工的嬰幼兒以及兒童子女適當的托育措施，我們也更應該要去保障勞工工作權的適當措施，對不對？","以韓國為例，它除了提供貸款或者是租稅優惠的措施之外，對於沒有執行的他們會強制去輔導，所以在這一方面我也提出，因為少子女化的面向是要整體性的去規劃，既然勞動部你們有性別工作平等法第二十三條的規範，我希望你們也去精進，怎麼樣能夠更好，或者去參考世界其他國家怎麼做，而不是一成不變，導致我們的答案都是負分的，本席絕對不希望如此。"],["李次長健鴻：我們都有進場輔導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好好地滾動式地去精進方案，好不好？"],["李次長健鴻：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有談到滾動式精進方案，請把書面資料給本席。"],["李次長健鴻：瞭解，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一起繼續討論，好不好？"],["李次長健鴻：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["李次長健鴻：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝次長。","接續我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900b1096ead36a0946047542dab5946a2249b62a44c83059aafbe90c14cbbb16b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"12:44:51 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我們是要拿捏"},{"start":188.419,"end":207.049,"text":"但现在因为中共要的就是造成寒蝉效应让台湾的出版自由受到强害这个时候我认为文化部应当有所声援的动作同样的我们有这么多的文化界的人士站出来因为我们的文化预算被恶砍"},{"start":208.248,"end":236.306,"text":"所以文化人的集结发生今天有第三片的这个反罢免对不起这个投入这个我们大罢免的这个我在这里不讲政治我讲文化因为每一天文化人在做的就是批判社会就是关怀政治那同样的杨丽洲导演也受到了暴力的威胁某种程度他的文化表意的自由也受到强害我认为文化部也要声援他力挺他"},{"start":237.592,"end":237.735,"text":"你認為呢"},{"start":239.537,"end":267.91,"text":"委員講到這裡我跟委員講當揚立州出現有人威脅的時候其實我就找內政部長我說他這樣子發生我們得抓到那個威脅他的人然後我們要給他加強維安那內政部長跟我講說他第一次被威脅他就有加強維安那最近公布出來已經抓到那個當初威脅他的人是一個計程車司機所以這一切我想我們國家能做的就是我們也不能干預"},{"start":268.41,"end":290.256,"text":"第一线保护维安就如同刚刚我们要保护复查在中国的时候下落不明他的安全我同意但是必要的时候我认为当台湾的创作自由受到强害的时候作为文化的大家长我们必须捍卫我们的自由在文化人来讲这非常重要下一页为什么要锁定文化预算来恶砍重砍下一页"},{"start":291.368,"end":313.763,"text":"就是如果台灣的文化被噤聲了這個世界上只剩下中國的文化霸權只剩下中國的聲音前夜所以這一次文化預算遭刪除11億遭凍結34億樣樣相向都對準了讓我們的文化被勒住了脖子我要說這是中國的文化霸權"},{"start":314.684,"end":329.411,"text":"他鎖定了文化部門下一頁而除了鎖定文化部門他更鎖定文化部門當中的第一線的發聲的管道例如特定經費從我們的國際交流國際旅費媒體宣傳來下手然後針對機構的部分鎖定了公視還好被民意擋下來"},{"start":340.58,"end":366.288,"text":"沒了公視 當初要砍23億沒了公視 台灣要看央視嗎台灣plus也被下重手當然我對台灣plus很多的營運還要再努力我也有意見 我也要監督但是這都是他們重中之重的鎖定包括中央通訊社也是為台灣文化發生重要的平台還有剛剛一直在被在野黨委員為難的央廣"},{"start":369.391,"end":375.677,"text":"楊廣如果有弊案當然要查我也不容不查跟怠惰但是弊案調查中"},{"start":377.348,"end":404.307,"text":"調查中的案子不要再來政治干預調查了所以這些都是台灣被消音了世界只剩下中國的聲音我認為這一切的作為包括鎖定文化預算還有文化預算當中的特定機構還有央廣不斷的被為難央廣這幾年做了很多過去的央廣做不到的事譬如說強化國際的鏈接譬如說央廣"},{"start":406.644,"end":426.032,"text":"去成立了我們新聞部的這個中國小組我們要向社會傳達正確的華人的聲音還有我們全面針對媒體的嗜讀如何來因應防範認知作戰這都是這幾年央廣的成就不要因為"},{"start":427.633,"end":449.773,"text":"單一弊案打趴央廣這事背後的政治意圖是什麼要給予央廣努力的同仁合理的評價所以從公共電視、台灣Plus中央通訊社乃至於央廣你也認為是不是有被集中鎖定這背後有一個不知名的力量讓我們必須要慎防"},{"start":452.301,"end":467.128,"text":"我覺得獨裁政權最怕就是這種文化跟言論自由跟媒體一個獨裁政權它最需要封鎖的就是這個那我覺得像我們這次被審預算的時候我也發現到為什麼全部是針對這個公共媒體"},{"start":468.228,"end":494.97,"text":"我感謝那個委員剛才講到那個中央央廣其實這幾年央廣也好中央通訊社也好公視基金會也好他們扮演的角色不如不如外面所說的只有那些缺點他們的確也扮演了一個公共媒體的重要性那這次被刪的結果台灣plus他有很多做不對的地方但是他這次的刪是刪掉刪跟動大概有"},{"start":495.959,"end":521.51,"text":"去掉一半他幾乎要關台那他我承認他有很多問題我也還不滿意他在做了五年之後他累積了一些那個成果跟能量也是很難得的但你把他一口氣關掉那等於前面的努力全部白費所以我我認為這次的刪減是非常有針對性是謝謝主席我最後收尾我想"},{"start":523.151,"end":539.268,"text":"文化部門受重傷 我長期爭取文化建設從前瞻 從無色要催生的文化發展基金我後面沒有時間講了 下一頁但是我們如何讓台灣文化的聚寶盆讓文化免於這一次的全面性的災難"},{"start":540.689,"end":559.36,"text":"我們還要有更多想方設法我非常謝謝大家我這幾天陸續找各個私處同仁大家來商量那因為剛剛講到國際傳媒馬上就上路的大阪勢博文化勢博的部分我們因此也受了影響它馬上就到了我們要善用Mega Event"},{"start":560.24,"end":580.217,"text":"讓台灣的文化成為台灣的Nation Brand國家的品牌有沒有可能用各種方式在經費被刪百分之百的每天預算被刪但是文化勢博在大阪又是這麼台日友好的大阪有沒有任何方式強化我們在文化勢博這一次的推廣就在今年"},{"start":581.551,"end":610.4,"text":"就是说预算被大概两千万的所有宣传那个费用在这边全部被删掉那我们现在就想办法透过跟民间组织合作然后透过跟外交部的合作我们一定不会因为预算被删减之后让这个活动我给期许我也持续给监督但我也持续送暖谢谢主席给我时间后面的题目都没办法讲我希望还有文化部门的机会我可以跟大家来讨论谢谢谢谢 谢谢委员好 谢谢吴思瑶委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":846,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時44分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長好。很開心回到教文會來關心我最在乎的文化政策，我會聚焦在這次的預算被惡砍、惡刪、惡凍，讓文化成了重災戶，當然，我也期待您說的──文化人不是要飯的，我們要一起來打造臺灣的文化聚寶盆；但預算就是受害了，我們怎麼辦呢？","我在這邊要先跟您談，最近大家都在講言論自由，這張圖片是1989年鄭南榕先生為了爭取臺灣百分之百的言論自由，他自焚了，那時候我十多歲，從此立志要從政。小野老師原本在美國，您也是在美麗島事件前後回來臺灣，您投入臺灣電影新浪潮的運動，在投入電視界以後，您也推動臺灣電視界的文化復興，我想您的DNA裡頭是絕對追求百分之百的創作自由。但是言論自由有兩種，一種是真正的言論自由，是憲法層級，也是國際的公民與政治權利、國際公約所保護的言論自由；另有一種言論自由是壞的，是錯的、假的，就是假借言論自由來進行仇恨的、暴力的、戰爭的鼓吹。我想您非常認同言論自由有兩種，臺灣要捍衛哪一種？","中配也有兩種，一種是在臺灣卻鼓吹武統，濫用臺灣言論自由的亞亞；另外一種是讓我們敬佩的中配，就是八旗出版社的富察，他因為在臺灣出版了一些中國不喜歡的書籍，剛被判刑，在中國毫無正當法律程序，毫無公開審判的司法下，他被求重刑。中配有兩種，我們要捍衛跟支持的是富察這一種。對於富察事件，我知道文化部第一時間想救援，但也尊重家屬的意願。但是無論如何，作為臺灣文化出版、文學創作的大家長，對於富察被重判，文化部有沒有任何聲援？部長也是個文學人、文化人，有沒有利用您的臉書，我們來捍衛臺灣的自由創作、出版自由，我們應當發聲！部長，有沒有？"],["李部長遠：我在民間的時候有參與這個聲援……"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["李部長遠：但是作為文化部長的時候，我不曉得我們官方的聲明會不會危害到富察，讓他受到中共更嚴重的判刑……"],["吳委員思瑤：他現在已經被判，所以我理解，在他狀況不明的情況下，我們需要拿捏，但現在中共要的就是造成寒蟬效應，讓臺灣的出版自由受到戕害。我認為文化部這個時候應當有聲援的動作。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：同樣的，我們有這麼多文化界的人士站出來，因為我們的文化預算被惡砍，所以文化人集結發聲，今天有第三片投入這個大罷免的這個……我在這裡不講政治，我講文化，因為文化人每一天在做的就是批判社會，關懷政治。同樣的，楊力州導演也受到暴力威脅，他的文化表意自由也受到某種程度的戕害，我認為文化部也要聲援他，力挺他。你認為呢？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員講，當楊力州出現被人威脅的時候，其實我就找內政部長，我說他有這樣的事情發生，我們得抓到那個威脅他的人，我們要給他加強維安……"],["吳委員思瑤：實質的幫助。"],["李部長遠：內政部長跟我說，他第一次被威脅，就有對他加強維安，最近公布出來已經抓到當初威脅他的人是一個計程車司機。所以我想我們國家能做的，就是我們也不能干預……"],["吳委員思瑤：當然第一線保護維安，就如同剛剛我們要保護富察在中國下落不明時他的安全，這個我同意；但我認為當臺灣的創作自由受到戕害的時候，作為文化的大家長，我們必須捍衛我們的自由，在文化人來講，這非常重要。","為什麼要鎖定文化預算來惡砍、重砍？就是如果臺灣的文化被噤聲了，這個世界上只剩下中國的文化霸權，只剩下中國的聲音，所以這一次文化預算遭刪除11億，遭凍結34億，樣樣項項都對準了讓我們的文化被勒住脖子，我要說這是中國的文化霸權，他們鎖定了文化部門！除了鎖定文化部門，他們更鎖定文化部門當中第一線的發聲管道，例如特定經費從我們的國際交流、國際旅費、媒體宣傳來下手；針對機構的部分，鎖定了公視，當初要砍23億，還好被民意擋下來。沒了公視，臺灣要看央視嗎？TaiwanPlus也被下重手，當然我對TaiwanPlus很多的營運還要再努力也有意見，也要監督；但這些都是他們重中之重的鎖定，包括中央通訊社也是為臺灣文化發聲重要的平台，還有剛剛一直被在野黨委員為難的央廣。央廣如果有弊案，當然要查，我也不容不查跟怠惰；但是弊案調查中的案子，不要讓政治干預調查，所以這些都是臺灣被消音了，那麼世界就只剩下中國的聲音。我認為這一切的作為，包括鎖定文化預算，還有文化預算中的特定機構以及央廣不斷地被為難。央廣這幾年做了很多過去做不到的事情，譬如強化國際的鏈結；在新聞部成立中國小組，向社會傳達正確的華人聲音；還有全面針對媒體的識讀，如何來因應防範認知作戰，這些都是央廣這幾年的成就，不要因為單一弊案打趴央廣。這背後的政治意圖是什麼？要給予央廣努力的同仁合理的評價！所以，從公共電視、TaiwanPlus、中央通訊社，乃至於央廣，你是不是也認為有被集中鎖定？這背後有一個不知名的力量，讓我們必須要慎防。"],["李部長遠：我覺得獨裁政權最怕的就是這種文化跟言論自由跟媒體，一個獨裁政權最需要封鎖的就是這個。像我們這次預算在審查的時候，我也發現到為什麼全部是針對這個公共媒體；感謝委員剛才提到了央廣，其實這幾年來，央廣也好，中央通訊社也好、公視基金會也好，他們扮演的角色不是如外面所說的只有那些缺點，他們的確也扮演了一個公共媒體的重要性。TaiwanPlus有很多做不對的地方，但是這次預算刪掉的跟凍結的，大概就去掉一半，它幾乎就要關台；我承認它有很多問題……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，44%。我也還不滿意……"],["李部長遠：它在做了五年之後，所累積的一些成果跟能量，也是很難得的，如果把它一口氣關掉，等於前面的努力全部白費。所以我認為這次的刪減是非常有針對性。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席，我最後收尾。我想文化部門受重傷，我長期爭取文化建設，從前瞻、從吳思瑤催生的文化發展基金，要如何讓臺灣文化的聚寶盆，讓文化免於這一次全面性的災難，我們還需要更多的想方設法。我非常謝謝大家，這幾天也陸續找各個司處同仁，大家來商量，因為剛剛講到國際傳媒，馬上就要上路的大阪文化世博，這個部分我們也受到影響，所以我們要善用Mega Event讓臺灣的文化成為臺灣的national 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轉接的二類電信業者。"],["何委員欣純：負責轉接的為了要賺錢，你如何給它一個蘿蔔跟棒子要求它一定要去幫忙阻詐，要區分可信任跟不可信任，你如何去阻斷？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是剛剛跟委員報告，它要做好KYC，如果它不做，它又登記為電信事業，根據打詐條例就有罰則。"],["何委員欣純：罰則而已喔？罰多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：數目字我忘了。"],["何委員欣純：只有罰錢？"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，打詐專法因為也是強化所有電信服務，第一個，要做好KYC；第二個，電信事業都要配合協助做一些技術上的防堵措施。"],["何委員欣純：是嘛！我現在就在問你……"],["黃副處長天陽：罰則是增加到好像最高20萬到200萬以上，因為它還有加重連續處罰的規範，以上。"],["何委員欣純：我是建議，主委，我剛剛問你手上有沒有盤點到這些你可掌握的資訊，或者是公司行號，或者是你手上可運用的蘿蔔跟棒子，我今天是很誠懇地拜託你，這些都是我們從民間還有媒體上知道被詐騙的有那麼多，簡訊詐騙還是其中一個很主要的管道，我們之前確實透過打詐專法，NCC有跟電信公司對於在簡訊，不管是你剛剛回答的私人或者是公司行號的簡訊，我們確實有做了一些阻詐的措施，但是還不夠，我是在告訴你還不夠！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，我們持續努力。"],["何委員欣純：我們民眾仰賴的是政府可以告訴他們如何能夠更進一步的防詐，詐騙集團日新月益，我們政府的手段也要跟著日新月益啊！要與時俱進啊！然後才可以真正地讓民眾信任嘛！政府是有決心要阻詐跟打詐，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["何委員欣純：接下來，最後一點點時間，其中一個，電信公司還有相關機制就是假門號跟身分驗證，這個我們現在有一個漏洞，警方這一陣子也有一個訊息傳出，外國籍，anyway，不管是外籍移工也好，或者是外籍人士也好，他到了臺灣，他買了SIM卡，這些預付卡不管是本國的電信或他國的電信，最重要的是什麼，很多很多他使用我國電信的預付卡，之後他出境賣給不法集團，他人已經不在臺灣了，但是門號仍在臺灣繼續使用。你看，移工居留期滿先賣帳戶再出境成政府打詐新隱憂！這個是警方已經有這樣子的一個訊息告訴大家，那我們可以怎麼辦？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們現在已經是現在進行式，正在處理當中，包括這些外籍，像委員簡報所講的兩百多萬，我們現在已經清查到快要接近破兩百萬了，然後停斷話到上個月是兩萬多，預計在8月底以前所有的都會清查過，然後我們目前重點是先把一證多門先清查處理掉，只要他不在境內或者失聯，或相關身分證確認沒有信任基礎的，電信業者都會依據打詐條例給予停斷話。"],["何委員欣純：所以今年8月之前？可不可以更快？我現在拿到的資料是221萬張，你剛剛說你已經清查了將近200萬個SIM卡。"],["黃副處長天陽：是，報告委員，因為那個清查過程，第一個，就是取決於因為我們要透過移民署資料庫連線，我們持續有協調請他們協助，因為連線要查詢，這個可能有速度上的問題。第二個，我們不是只是去查，因為業者還是要透過先發一個簡訊表示經過我們這邊比對結果，你的資料不正確，請你一個禮拜內回來KYC，它要做一個過濾和通知的義務，要不然怕……所以過程……"],["何委員欣純：主委，我沒時間了，我只是希望，既然我們知道這個會變成現在政府一個打詐的隱憂，這個隱憂問題存在，但我們有的是手段，而且我們有的是可以掌握在手上的一些……雖然你說跨部會要嫁接可能需要時間，但是畢竟這個就是政府嘛！人民期待政府，跨部會如果能夠有效率的，趕快清查清楚，趕快該斷的斷，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["何委員欣純：也許你斷一支就少了被詐騙，對不對？人民可能少損失幾十萬、幾百萬，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得這個雖然在你看起來清查兩百多萬好像是一個大工程，但是如果我們可以把跨部會的嫁接、你們聯繫的機制可以再更簡化、更迅速，可以趕快來處理這個問題，我想警方會感謝你，所有全國的國人也會感謝，我們真的要從源頭來阻詐，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題，我們會持續跟相關部會協力。"],["何委員欣純：你剛剛跟我講8月，現在幾月？現在3月底，如果可以提早，拜託提早，再給我一個書面報告，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，謝謝委員，我們會提書面報告，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","兩百多萬已經阻快兩百萬了嘛！其實還是要先鼓勵跟感謝啦！後續把速度加快啦！","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、委員游顥、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請國家通訊傳播委員會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9004ebd110f5d71654e2ba64e6561398ad09b62a44c83059aafaf3aa6264434cab25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:31:53 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謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請NCC的代理主委請主委主委 我剛有聽剛剛國民黨委員的質詢"},{"start":22.304,"end":43.323,"text":"我在想NCC是一個獨立機構它所有的案件的審查都是由我們NCC的委員秉持專業不會受到任何政治事件的影響來做判斷沒有錯吧那為什麼剛剛有個國民黨委員說現在正值大罷免所以希望NCC在這個時候有所作為我聽了覺得很奇怪"},{"start":46.02,"end":68.145,"text":"應該和任何的政治狀況都不會有影響對 我們必須要跟他獨立處理對 就是我們是個獨立機關嘛這是第一個要注意的那第二個我想NCC他基本上我們身為一個國家通訊的傳播那針對通訊傳播這件事有一個很重要的原則就是叫做技術中立"},{"start":69.305,"end":91.197,"text":"所以我們不會去刻意是說對一項技術比較讚對一項技術比較不好但是技術中立總是會遇到技術會更新就是會更好會越來越好所以從過去幾G一直延伸到現在5G了就是說技術中立的本身會被技術更新以及"},{"start":92.615,"end":115.842,"text":"資源有限,就是所謂寬普的資源是有限的所以你要求過去有2G,也有3G後來我們NCC做了一個決定,2G退出市場差不多在幾年前,3G也都退出市場現在就只剩4G跟5G,沒有錯吧?沒有錯"},{"start":116.602,"end":144.737,"text":"好那又有一個問題以現在4G它整個基地台它的大概基地台可以打出去的信號的一個極限的一個距離啦就我這邊的了解大概4G大概差不多1到2公里這樣嗎還是可以更遠看是多位區還是郊區郊區工業可以打開比較大可以打比較遠那郊區打比較遠可以到多遠"},{"start":146.044,"end":149.433,"text":"大概稍微遠一點3到5都有可能3到5都有可能那如果5G勒"},{"start":152.336,"end":172.274,"text":"5G在看頻段因為它現在主頻是3.4G的那一塊通常比較不遠那另外我們開的28G那個是好米坡那邊它的距離非常的短非常的短所以發展不起來所以看起來5G可能會比4G的距離會再短一點好 可是問題就來了過去3G跟2G"},{"start":176.718,"end":201.798,"text":"尤其2G,聽說我那時候不經過那個年代啦有啦,應該是有啦,是那時候沒去注意啦那個年代的時候,我們要對這個不清楚啦2G就是跟可以用卡電話的年代,他們可以拔20公里3G呢,說可以拔10公里,這差在哪裡這差在哪裡,就是我們海口,我們這裡的漁民朋友以前漁民朋友處理土海"},{"start":204.678,"end":232.354,"text":"處理特害 像我們布袋 布袋跟配合主委 你知道亂封嗎 這位教委就知道59公里 因為他有騎水上摩托車 為布袋拚到配合 59公里啊 為配合 你如果過去二巨月時代 破20公里我們布袋這邊破20公里 差不多在這大樓梯 市面在這大樓梯我出事情 我這次都可以 靠電話 求救"},{"start":233.354,"end":246.368,"text":"現在不是耶 現在是我們差不多出埠地幹 差不多壓到5水高信號就都沒有啊 就沒有信號了一旦出事要什麼求救 要用最傳統的漁業電台SSB 無線電通報"},{"start":250.772,"end":274.708,"text":"無線電用無線電通報所以事實上我們的技術的提升技術的提升對漁民朋友反而是對他們的一個剝奪他們出去偷害的時候他們的風險提高了這件事也沒有配套也沒有解決因為頻譜的資源有限所以我們國家事實上這樣對於漁民朋友是不公平的對方不利"},{"start":275.939,"end":287.006,"text":"我們可以來處理因為先前其他離島的部分有透過一些設置中繼電台的概念來處理離島可以設中繼電台啊可是我現在說的是海啊海這麼大我聽說就是離島就是島與本島之間的中間設立一個"},{"start":294.298,"end":321.41,"text":"活動式的中繼電台這種概念像我記得也許這是一個辦法啦現在也可以已經都有在說海上變電所變電站如果在那邊如果設一個基地台或者是我們一種離岸風機我就蓋一條基地台在那裡就是說因為你要想喔因為我們的設成都沒有管所以你看整個漁民出海"},{"start":322.711,"end":347.629,"text":"那卻因為我們把5G、2G停掉了他們反而少了,他們需要這樣的服務反而沒有了所以這件事我覺得主委有機會我們可能再來參詳的話這邊要怎麼做但是我覺得這件事情持續這麼久了過去有很多市民朋友都在懷念這件事情所以我今天有機會,我覺得我來這裡講一下我覺得整個國家技術一直在進步"},{"start":348.737,"end":373.352,"text":"除非我們又有更新的技術可以打更遠但是你那些舊的東西一旦沒了你的配套是什麼?我們不可以都不可能這樣好不好好文匯處理其實2G、3G淘汰它的頻率轉換成5G低頻段的部分其實它一樣可以打比較遠那這邊我們可以找電信業者來合作解決這個委員所反映的這個嘉義附近的那一部分的情況因為其他在"},{"start":374.292,"end":380.944,"text":"在好像馬祖之間的問題之前有處理過我們會用這種經驗來看看怎麼處理委員所反映的那些問題好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時25分）謝謝召委，有請NCC代理主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，我剛才聽了國民黨委員的質詢，我在想NCC是一個獨立機構，所有案件的審查都是由NCC的委員秉持專業，不受到任何政治事件的影響來做判斷，沒有錯吧！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：為什麼剛剛國民黨委員說現在正值大罷免，希望NCC在這個時候有所作為，我聽了之後覺得很奇怪，應該和任何的政治狀況都不會有影響，沒有錯吧！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，我們必須要獨立處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們就是個獨立機關，這是第一個要注意的；第二個，NCC基本上身為國家通訊傳播的主管，針對通訊傳播這件事情，有一個很重要的原則，就是技術中立，我們不會刻意去說哪一項技術比較好，哪一項技術比較不好。但技術中立總是會遇到技術更新，工夫會越來越好，從過去的幾G一直延伸到現在的5G，所以技術中立的本身會被技術更新及頻寬、頻譜資源有限所影響。像過去有2G、3G，NCC後來做了一個決定，讓2G退出市場，幾年前3G也都退出市場，現在就只剩4G跟5G，沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，現在又有一個問題，就我這邊的了解，4G的基地台可以打出去的信號，極限的一個距離，差不多一到兩公里，還是可以更遠？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這要看是都會區還是郊區，郊區功率可以開得比較大，可以打得比較遠。"],["蔡委員易餘：郊區打得比較遠，可以到多遠？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：稍微再遠一點，三到五都有可能。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是5G呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：5G還要再看頻段，因為現在的主頻是3.4G那一塊，通常比較不遠，另外我們開了28G毫米波那個部分，它的距離非常地短，發展不起來。"],["蔡委員易餘：看起來5G可能又比4G的距離會再短一點？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會再短一點。"],["蔡委員易餘：可是問題來了，過去3G跟2G，尤其在2G那個就只是可以打電話的年代，可以打20公里；3G可以打10公里，這部分差在哪裡？差在海邊的這些漁民朋友！以前他們出去討海，主委知道布袋跟澎湖相距多遠嗎？召委知道，就是59公里，因為他曾經從布袋騎水上摩托車到澎湖，一共59公里。在2G的時代，從澎湖可以打20公里，從布袋這邊可以打20公里，如果漁民在這段路程出事，至少都可以打電話求救。現在不行，我們從布袋港出發，還沒到黑水溝，訊號就都沒了！一旦出事要怎麼求救？就只能用最傳統的漁業電臺SSB無線電通報。所以技術的提升對漁民朋友反而是一種剝奪，他們出去討海的時候，風險提高了，這件事也沒有配套，也沒有解決，因為頻譜資源有限。所以我們國家對漁民朋友是不公平的，對他們是不利的。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們可以來處理，因為先前其他離島的部分，是透過設置中繼電臺的概念來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：離島可以設中繼電臺，可是我現在說的是海，海洋面積那麼大。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我說的是島與本島的中間設立一個活動式的中繼電臺這樣的概念，像我記得……"],["蔡委員易餘：這也許是一個辦法，現在也都有海上變電所、變電站，如果在那邊設一個基地台，或是在離岸風機那邊有沒有辦法架一支基地台？因為我們的射程都不大，因為我們把5G、2G停掉了，漁民出海需要這樣的服務，現在沒有了。所以，如果5G有機會，請問主委，我們是不是可能再來商量看這要怎麼做。這件事情持續這麼久，過去也有很多漁民朋友跟我反映過，今天有機會，我應該來這裡講一下，我覺得整個國家的技術一直在進步，除非我們又有更新的技術可以打更遠。但是那些舊的東西，一旦沒了，你的配套是什麼，我們不能都不考慮可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們會處理。其實2G、3G淘汰，它的頻率轉換成5G低頻段的部分，它一樣可以打比較遠，我們這邊可以找電信業者合作解決委員所反映的在嘉義附近那個部分的情況，好像馬祖之前的那個問題也有處理過，我們會用這個經驗來看看怎麼處理委員所反映的那些問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90040aa2f67875197d72ba64e6561398ad09b62a44c83059aaf0b1eef77ac16b5045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:18:32 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是陳黛麗主委您好我想今天這個委員們都非常關心NCC新一波的NCC委員的人事案的進度那麼事實上就像剛剛魯明哲委員所說的其實NCC委員的人事案已經都進入到交通委員會來排審可是就遲遲沒有後續的動作那麼民進黨的這個召委其實也可以"},{"start":37.065,"end":62.443,"text":"這階級的安排排審但是不知道為什麼都沒有安排排審那當然就不禁讓本席懷疑啦是不是行政院基本上有一個新的NCC委員名單現在行政院院長還會認同之前的那四位包含翁柏宗在內的NCC委員名單嗎各位報告這之前在行政院我沒辦法代替不是我之前範圍內的發言"},{"start":65.097,"end":90.054,"text":"所以本席认为说极有可能是行政院或许有了新的NCC名单但是迟迟不肯送出否则的话对于之前的那一份救民单如果认为那些人员可以的话那为什么不积极排审所以简单来说本席跟其他的委员的意见一样NCC人事案不审不是立法院的责任"},{"start":90.734,"end":114.203,"text":"而是行政院的責任可能甚至可以上達到是賴清德的責任如果說是立法院這個只要是賴清德點頭願意要審其實就可以直接指揮民進黨的黨團這個交通委員會的召委就可以立刻來排審了這不是問題好那接下來呢我想要再請教的就是說"},{"start":116.584,"end":131.596,"text":"依照NCC的第113年度的第四季的傳播接力報告我們看到其實113年度的最後一季電視申訴案件數其實是高達555件其中針對政論談話性節目以及新聞報導違反事實查證的申訴案件分別是政論節目的申訴案件"},{"start":141.423,"end":168.985,"text":"是346件那麼如果是新聞報導違反事實查核原則的事實查證原則申訴案件是76件其實坦白說這樣的申訴案件比例算高的吧這一季的累積起來這是違反事實查證的申訴案件我大概確認一下可能是全年累積的林處長回答一下"},{"start":172.538,"end":190.483,"text":"這個還是要看就是雖然他寫事實查證可是可能是有就是民眾申訴的類型他自己去勾那個類型那我們還是要就他申訴的情況去實際的查個案每一個申訴案他是不是符合這個違反事實查證至寵害公共利益"},{"start":190.623,"end":211.062,"text":"好那所以對於這500多件的案子你們現在400多件的案件實施你們現在已經有做處理了嗎我們都有陸續在處理我們只要說因為這個處理申訴委員很清楚我們有一定的時間限制對於人民的那個好那所以實際上進入到你們的節目廣告諮詢委員會議去待審查的案子有多少件"},{"start":213.949,"end":221.862,"text":"您是說第四季嗎或者說累計到現在你們有多少的案子是在停留在節目廣告諮詢會議裡面待審查的"},{"start":222.626,"end":229.109,"text":"目前我們4月10號我印象應該是事件但是我們陸續之前已經在去年或是今年初都有處理進諮詢會議但是因為我們就是委員會議還沒有辦法那個組成所以那個案子雖然經過諮詢會議討論過了但是都要等待那個委員會來做最後的決定所以簡單來說就是可能有些案子該罰的還沒有罰是嗎我們現在看到很多的這個數據其實"},{"start":250.959,"end":269.413,"text":"你們在這幾年 對不起從去年10月以後10月大概是最後一批有兩件裁罰案件那麼從去年11月12月到現在其實都沒有任何的裁罰案件是那所以代表是每個裁罰案件的這個他的裁罰金額都高達50萬以上嗎"},{"start":271.621,"end":287.084,"text":"沒有如果就是對我真的很清楚我們如果是涉及多元的也是就是進入諮詢會議的這個案件的話我們基本上以前從以前的原則都是進委員會來決議所以沒有一個採訪案件是低於20萬以下另外就是說我們陸續已經在採除了我們目前也有統計過大概有還蠻多件要處理當中的案子已經陸續在發意見陳述還有採訪書都陸續要出去了"},{"start":298.687,"end":325.317,"text":"因為本席發現你們的採訪的速度進度其實蠻慢的我們看一下就是在先前有兩個案子這都是按照你們NCC所提出來的報告書第四季有兩個電視節目它的申訴是在十件以上的節目一個是雅琴看世界另外一個則是基隆市長的罷免案開票特別報導"},{"start":327.658,"end":343.351,"text":"這個申訴大概有300多件都在申訴雅琴看世界這個節目還有基隆市長的罷免案的開票特別報導這是32件這兩個案子你們現在已經有進入到所以節目廣告諮詢會已經討論了嗎討論過了然後就是等委員會來討論所以他們的開發的金額會高達50萬以上嗎"},{"start":352.858,"end":380.866,"text":"就是剛剛有跟委員報告我們的諮詢會議因為是討論多元意見的那個案件所以我們以前都是從以前都是會進委員會來做決議不管他的採取金額是了解對那因為這個案子看起來這就是在去年第四季的案子所以應該是近期會處罰嗎我們近期就是我們會提那個就是我們的質疑會議但是因為以前的做法所以還是會等那委員會來做最後決定好"},{"start":382.286,"end":404.181,"text":"針對一個節目它被申訴了三百多次你們有對這個節目來進行警告嗎或是有相關的除了裁罰罰還之外的其他措施聽說這個節目應該可以暫時停播警告也是一種裁罰停播是執照的上邊跟目前都是委員會保留事項沒辦法處理"},{"start":405.066,"end":410.812,"text":"我不是講這個執照 而是說這個節目短時間的以這個308件這一件因為它其實申訴的是同一個案件同一個節目 同一個違法情節那所以因為是同樣的違反涉違反的那個案情所以我們是進到諮詢會去討論"},{"start":423.886,"end":430.409,"text":"那當然就整個我們也發意見陳述另外因為他是新聞節目所以他也必須進入他們的所謂的倫理委員會來討論那整個這個不管是相關的事證我們都提到諮詢會已經討論過了已經討論過了本身要提醒的就是說其實像類似像這樣子的節目因為它被申訴的次數非常之多由此可見這個案情一定也很重大我基本上是不同意"},{"start":449.076,"end":473.318,"text":"要去把新聞頻道的執照就把它廢照不予換照我基本上是反對的我尊重新聞頻道的新聞報導自由但是如果說有少數的這樣的節目它的違反社會秩序或是違反衛廣法的事實查證原則情節重大損害到公共利益的"},{"start":474.059,"end":486.196,"text":"除了罰還之外本席認為其實該短暫的停播就短暫的停播否則這樣的節目他不會有所教訓罰錢對他們來講沒有太大的意義"},{"start":487.802,"end":509.97,"text":"我們會依衛管法的規定來處理如果是代理主委我想您回去可以看一下這個有關於我們相關的這個法條的處罰不是只有罰環停播停播不僅是頻道其實個別節目也是可以停播的那本席還是希望在這個階段尤其是現在已經進入到大罷免的階段有非常多的節目政論節目"},{"start":514.412,"end":529.318,"text":"他裡面的來賓會造謠會去傳播一些不實的訊息那麼即便是新聞裡面可能也會有些不實訊息的散布這部分希望NCC要依職權調查"},{"start":531.314,"end":540.441,"text":"雖然說你們現在的委員人數不夠可能在50萬以上的裁罰的案件你們還必須經過分組會議再上到大委員會裡面去討論但是我們違反事實查證原則的處罰叫20萬"},{"start":546.872,"end":575.819,"text":"跟我們包括剛剛處長補充說涉及到新聞媒體的因為是涉及到多元價值判斷過去慣例都需要上委員會來處理那這個因為我們行政我們行政機關的處分必須要前後一致特別是新聞媒體這一塊也會根據以前的做法來一貫下去所以都是留待委員會來處理那如果是按照你們這種說法的話那坦白說我現在終於知道為什麼行政院長不想提新的不想要趕快進速去審查NCC委員"},{"start":577.23,"end":604.546,"text":"因為不審最好那就開不了罰單對像雅琴看世界這樣的節目就不用被處罰什麼山立民視其他的這些電視新聞頻道就不用被處罰因為就算是有爭議還要上到大委員會他廢罰20萬也要上到大委員會議像這樣的一個情形這個確實是非常有利於民進黨政府為什麼不想要這麼積極的去推動ACC委員的人事案的審查"},{"start":605.989,"end":634.231,"text":"沒有 這個做法從一屆以來一直都是這樣子就比較前後一致現在是一個特殊狀況你們的做法也要符合情勢變更原則啊當整個台灣照搖滿天飛的時候你們還要按照過去的慣例過去的做法剛剛都可以講說什麼NCC委員現在是進入到一個什麼狀態這個黃祖密的那個是說什麼到了什麼"},{"start":635.884,"end":644.598,"text":"業客模狀態我們現在台灣的這個造謠的問題已經也都避入高荒了不能這麼消極下去"},{"start":645.991,"end":667.52,"text":"醫生你們的處分要點 處分作業要點50萬以下基本上你們是可以做的超過5分鐘了是 謝謝 謝謝主席給我今天比較多的時間但是我真的非常希望NCC在面對處罰不實謠言這件事情上面要多所作為"},{"start":669.1,"end":686.477,"text":"不要說限於說現在不能夠送大委員會所以所有的該罰的案子都擱置在那裡都不敢動作這會讓大家更覺得說那沒有NCC有NCC基本上沒有差別好不好希望陳主委跟處長回去再研議一下謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":856,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時6分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：請陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳代理主委你好！今天委員們都非常關心新一波NCC委員人事案的進度，事實上就像剛剛魯明哲委員所說，其實NCC委員的人事案都已經進入到交通委員會來排審了，可是遲遲沒有後續的動作，民進黨的召委其實也可以積極地安排審查，但是不知道為什麼都沒有安排，當然就讓本席不禁懷疑是不是行政院還有一個新的NCC委員名單，現在行政院院長還會認同包含翁柏宗在內的之前那4位NCC委員名單嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟各位委員報告，這個職權在行政院，我沒辦法代替做不是我職權範圍內的發言。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以本席認為極有可能是行政院或許有了新的NCC委員名單，但是遲遲不肯送出，否則的話，如果認為之前那份舊名單的那些人員可以的話，為什麼不積極排審？所以簡單來說，本席跟其他的委員意見一樣，NCC人事案不審查，不是立法院的責任而是行政院的責任，甚至可能可以上達到是賴清德的責任，只要是賴清德點頭願意要審，其實就可以直接指揮民進黨的交通委員會召委立刻來排審，這不是問題。","接下來我想要再請教的就是依照NCC113年度第4季傳播監理報告，我們看到113年度最後一季的電視申訴案件數高達555件，其中針對政論談話性節目以及新聞報導違反事實查證的部分，分別是政論節目的申訴案件有346件，新聞報導違反事實查證原則的申訴案件是76件，其實坦白說，這樣的申訴案件比例算高的吧？這是這一季累積起來的違反事實查證的申訴案件數。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我要確認一下，這可能是全年累積的數。"],["翁委員曉玲：可以請林處長回答一下。"],["林處長慧玲：委員好。這個還是要看情況，雖然寫的是違反事實查證，但可能是民眾在申訴時自己去勾選那個類型，我們還是要就他申訴的情況去實際地查每個申訴案是不是符合違反事實查證致損害公共利益。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以對於這四百多件案子，你們現在已經有做處理了嗎？"],["林處長慧玲：我們都有陸續在處理，委員很清楚，對於人民的裁審案，處理申訴我們有一定的時間限制。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以實際上進入到你們的節目廣告諮詢委員會議去待審查的案子有多少件？"],["林處長慧玲：您是說第4季嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：或者說累積到現在，你們有多少案子是停留在節目廣告諮詢會議裡面待審查的。"],["林處長慧玲：目前到4月10號，我印象中應該是4件，但是我們之前已經在去年或是今年初都有陸續處理進諮詢會議，不過因為我們的委員會議還沒有辦法組成，所以那些案子雖然經過諮詢會議討論過了，但是都要等待委員會來做最後的決定。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以簡單來說就是可能有些案子該罰的還沒有罰，是嗎？"],["林處長慧玲：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們現在看到很多的數據，其實你們在這幾年就是從去年10月以後，10月裡有兩件裁罰案件，那大概是最後一批，但從去年11月、12月到現在，其實都沒有任何的裁罰案件，所以這是代表每個裁罰案件的裁罰金額都高達50萬以上嗎？"],["林處長慧玲：對，委員真的很清楚，如果是涉及多元的也是進入諮詢會議的案件的話，從以前的原則，我們基本上都是進委員會來決議，因為是涉及多元……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以沒有一個裁罰案件的金額是50萬以下的？"],["林處長慧玲：有，我們陸續已經在裁處了，根據統計，目前大概還有滿多件處理當中的案子，如果是金額50萬元以下的案子，意見陳述還有裁處書都陸續要出去了。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝處長的說明，本席發現你們裁罰的進度其實是滿慢的，我們看一下先前的兩個案子，按照NCC提出來的報告書，第4季有兩個電視節目的申訴在10件以上，一個是「雅琴看世界」，另外一個則是「基隆市長罷免案開票特別報導」，「雅琴看世界」的申訴案件大概有三百多件，「基隆市長罷免案開票特別報導」這個節目的申訴案件數是32件，這兩個案子現在已經進入到節目廣告諮詢會議討論了嗎？"],["林處長慧玲：討論過了，現在就在等委員會來討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他們的裁罰金額會高達50萬以上嗎？"],["林處長慧玲：剛剛有跟委員報告過，我們的諮詢會議因為是討論多元意見的案件，所以從以前就都會進委員會來做決議，不管它的裁處金額。"],["翁委員曉玲：瞭解，因為這個看起來是在去年第4季的案子，所以應該是近期會處罰，對不對？"],["林處長慧玲：我們會提到我們的諮議會議，但是因為要遵循以前的作法，所以還是會等到委員會來做最後決定。"],["翁委員曉玲：針對一個被申訴了三百多次的節目，你們有對這個節目進行警告或是有相關的除了裁罰罰鍰之外的其他措施嗎？譬如說這個節目應該要暫時停播。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：警告也是一種裁罰，停播是執照上的變更，目前都是委員會議保留事項，沒辦法處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：我不是講執照，而是說這個節目短時間的停播。"],["林處長慧玲：以這個有308件申訴案的節目來說，申訴的是同一個案件、同一個節目、同一個違法情節，因為是同樣的涉違反的案情，所以我們是進到諮詢會去討論，當然就整個事件，我們也發了意見陳述；另外，因為它是新聞節目，所以也必須進入他們所謂的倫理委員會來討論，整個相關的事證，我們都提到諮詢會，已經討論過了。"],["翁委員曉玲：已經討論過了噢！本席要提醒的就是其實類似這樣子的節目，因為它被申訴的次數非常之多，由此可見案情一定也很重大，基本上我是不同意要把什麼新聞頻道的執照予以廢照或不予換照，我基本上是反對的，我尊重新聞頻道的新聞報導自由，但是如果有少數這樣的節目，違反社會秩序或是違反衛廣法的事實查證原則，情節重大有損害到公共利益的話，除了罰鍰之外，本席認為其實該短暫停播的就短暫停播，否則這樣的節目不會有所教訓，罰錢對他們來講沒有太大的意義。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會依衛廣法的規定來處理，如果是這種……"],["翁委員曉玲：我想代理主委回去可以看一下有關於相關法條的處罰，不是只有罰鍰，所謂停播不僅是指頻道，其實個別節目也是可以停播的。本席還是希望在這個階段，尤其是現在已經進入到大罷免的階段，有非常多政論節目裡面的來賓會造謠，會去傳播一些不實的訊息，即便是新聞裡面可能也會有些不實訊息的散布，這個部分希望NCC要依職權調查，雖然說你們現在的委員人數不夠，可能金額50萬以上的裁罰案件還必須經過分組會議，再上到大委員會裡面去討論，但是違反事實查證原則的處罰金額只要20萬。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，剛剛處長補充說涉及到新聞媒體的，因為是涉及到多元價值判斷，過去的慣例都需要上委員會議來處理，因為我們行政機關的處分必須要前後一致，特別是新聞媒體這一塊，也會根據以前的作法一貫為之，所以這些都留待委員會議來處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：按照你們這種說法，坦白說我現在終於知道為什麼行政院長不想儘速審查NCC委員人事案了，因為不審最好，就開不了罰單，像「雅琴看世界」這樣的節目就不用被處罰，什麼三立、民視這些其他電視新聞頻道就不用被處罰，因為就算是有爭議，還要上到大委員會，就算只被罰20萬也要上到大委員會議，像這樣的一個情形確實是非常有利於民進黨政府為什麼不想要這麼積極地去推動NCC委員人事案的審查。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這個作法從一屆以來一直都是這樣子，必須要前後一致。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在是一個特殊狀況，你們的作法也要符合情勢變更原則，當整個臺灣謠言滿天飛的時候，你們還要按照過去的慣例、過去的作法！剛剛都可以說NCC委員現在是進入黃主秘說的葉克膜狀態，現在臺灣的造謠問題已經也都病入膏肓了，不能這麼消極下去！依照你們的處分作業要點，裁罰金額50萬以下的案子，基本上你們是可以處理的。"],["主席：超過5分鐘了。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝主席今天給我比較長的發言時間，但是我真的非常希望NCC在面對處罰不實謠言這件事情上面要多所作為，不要說限於現在不能夠送到大委員會，所以所有該罰的案子都擱置在那裡，都不敢動作，這會讓大家更覺得有沒有NCC基本上沒有差別，好不好？希望陳主委跟處長回去再研議一下，謝謝！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159741","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159741","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900956d2e70a297b15f2ba64e6561398ad09b62a44c83059aaf2100f0c7800c801b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:56:42 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謝謝主席 我們請主委好 陳代主委來召委好"},{"start":13.263,"end":38.385,"text":"主委我想剛我也聽了很多委員的問題就是委員會不足人數的問題那當然我們也希望說行政院跟立法院我們會盡快來希望真的是要盡快完成不然這事情都拖著了 換遭都沒辦法拖那當你們有內部的困難點也應該盡量向上面反映那這個我們再一起來努力"},{"start":39.335,"end":56.297,"text":"那再來預算的問題 其實我聽了以後 我發現主委你剛剛回答的好像預算 你說包括打炸 包括其他所有的東西 也許它就某一個部分 這一個部分單獨來講它沒有去刪你"},{"start":58.855,"end":85.1,"text":"那其實整個行政院所有的各個不同的預算有些刪有些不刪有些沒刪大家都要回來回去 回來回來坦白講人民也搞不清楚你是哪裡有刪 哪裡沒刪所以其實各位 我覺得都是口水啦但是呢其實有一個重要的就是業務費因為你們被刪了幾成將近五成五五成五那凍結幾成"},{"start":87.607,"end":114.04,"text":"凍結人事費是清支4業務費是凍結10%對啊所以大概凍結的當然當我們您召委諮詢的時候也提出說你趕快提出來我們會盡快協助啦那這個是10%的部分嘛那就55%的部分事實上NCC跟全國各個中央部會的"},{"start":115.972,"end":144.74,"text":"業務費被刪減的概念是差不多的是一樣的就是說我今天業務費包括水電費包括臨時人員的人事費包括電貨化費包括網路費等等的啦也就是說我今天業務費被刪了55%所以你說其他的預算沒有刪到但是我做事的能力我做事的這一些手跟腳就已經都被你綁住了"},{"start":146.127,"end":173.432,"text":"所以其實有個很簡單的概念就是說,這些人說他們沒有算預算的部分,他們都說對自己沒算,你們事情沒辦法做啦。你們就是說,我的卡車,你都沒把我的卡打到,沒把我的手打到,用手機把它拔起來啦。我手機拔掉以後,我就沒辦法出卡車去做事情啦。所以為什麼全國各中央部會做事情現在這麼困難,就是這樣子啦。"},{"start":175.342,"end":202.844,"text":"所以有時候就說實在的我也很變態的這樣說大家口水回來回憶說對錢有三對錢沒三但是從整體來講業務會全國都刪了三到七成這三到七成就是在綁你的手跟綁你的腳的所以我也希望說可以我也要呼籲就是在等我們業務會被刪的看動的趕快處理刪的"},{"start":205.242,"end":233.033,"text":"其實如果要追加減 全部都一併處理各個單位各別處理 要不然都是就是永遠感覺這裡卡丘都拔掉了好 那我們有限電視現在住戶也逐漸越來越下降本來下降的速度都減幾萬幾萬現在下降速度是減十幾萬所以你可以發現整個有限電視這一個在衰退當中"},{"start":234.281,"end":236.009,"text":"那你認為有沒有什麼機會去補救"},{"start":238.359,"end":265.275,"text":"我們大概是從商用方面來處理第一個從有限基金的補助來要求業者來持續的加強他的營業那第二個我們也鼓勵他因為他的用戶數的衰減是大環境寬頻發達OTT崛起希望他這方面能夠與時俱進那也不少MSO SO大概都會都有已經有跟OTT TV來結盟那這邊是正面的"},{"start":265.755,"end":289.166,"text":"那第三個我們也鼓勵他多做強化他的一些地方頻道一些內容的自製等等讓他的客戶的黏鎖度能夠提升那我們大家都了解他另外通常有些電視還做另外寬頻上網那他寬頻上網的比例大概就是持續在上升當中跟有線電視這邊其實是有在做環境交叉的趨勢"},{"start":290.126,"end":315.357,"text":"那無論如何,我們希望它能夠持續來維持住一定的黏著度那這是大環境的情況,國外也是有減限潮沒關係,你說很多,大環境我們都知道OTT的興起,造成有限電視的衰退,那很正常但是就是說,我們總是還有一些收視權"},{"start":317.288,"end":334.185,"text":"他其實就是要年輕人看手機的老人家看電視啊他也是要有一部分的看電視的收容嘛那不可能沒有嘛那你剛剛講了那麼多我沒有聽到你講到區塊化頻道區塊化的部分"},{"start":334.998,"end":362.832,"text":"區外化之前NCE有在推當時業者認為說涉及到一些這個措施的改變會造成有些既有業者的利益重分配那他們在爭議很大那目前的話有些MSO大概有依照我們當年的規劃有部分採取他會在後面的評論上位數那邊有做一個區外化處理那這個是有種程度是在"},{"start":364.793,"end":385.861,"text":"順著就是依我們當年規劃方向去處理所以你管的是利益分配的問題還是管的是收視群眾大眾的問題群眾大眾的問題那你剛回答的原因我覺得也很怪沒有是因為過程中他們利害關係人頻道業者跟SO之間他們會有這方面的一些議題"},{"start":388.769,"end":415.138,"text":"以人民收視率 以人民收視權益這個是NCC最大的目的是所以你不管背後有多少的利益你應該要以人民的權益為最大的方向對 我們當年就是朝這方向來推所以區塊化對人民的收視權益有沒有幫助應該有有 那可不可以做"},{"start":419.366,"end":438.052,"text":"做應該是可以做但是會相對的程序上或者程序周全上還有一些溝通協調上大概還需要有一些努力的一些投入已經溝通了這麼久我從2020年恐怕也更早更早的時候其實我就問過"},{"start":439.502,"end":468.157,"text":"然後2020年我記得那時候質詢萬年頻道的時候我還記得每一個委員我一個一個問那每一個委員每一個都說應該要做然後從2020一直到現在這個我已經問了不下十次以上了比如說主委你現在認為應不應該要做站在人民的收視權益來講"},{"start":470.258,"end":498.073,"text":"長遠來看是應該要是啊這麼多年了應該要做的事情一直都不做有在做啊就是到位的程度跟當初規劃預期的有一些落差但是現在跟委員報告過有一家MSO大概也已經推出三位數的後面因為我已經把答案寫在上面了那人家業者自己可以做我們NCC沒有辦法要求這麼做嗎"},{"start":499.585,"end":527.041,"text":"他做的跟我們當年規劃是部分是一致的但是他並沒有雙載前面基本頻道的部分所以我其實語重心長啦是人民的權益人民收視的權益是最大的目的既然主委認為也應該要做我們有沒有機會看到你做成功我們朝著方向持續努力"},{"start":529.002,"end":557.882,"text":"什麼時候可以成功?我們會努力,期程方面變數很多半年?半年大概,因為是重大政策,要有委員會處理有變數,這部分我現在真的是沒有辦法跟委員回報所以你看我問了四年,還是努力?現在再問,還是努力?但都有在推進當中,業者有在跟上腳步"},{"start":559.209,"end":576.126,"text":"好啦 那個我就是拿這個人家已經自主做成的區塊化讓NCC做一個參考希望NCC可以為了人民收視權益可以盡快做到 好不好好好 謝謝好 謝謝許志遠"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時56分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：召委好。"],["許委員智傑：主委，我剛才也聽了很多委員的問題，就是委員會不足人數的問題，當然我們也希望行政院跟立法院會儘快完成，不然這事情都拖住了，換照都沒辦法做，當然你們有內部的困難點也應該儘量向上面反映，這個我們再一起來努力。","有關預算的問題，其實我聽了以後，我發現主委你剛剛回答的，你說包括打詐，包括其他所有的東西，也許就某一個部分，這一個部分單獨來講，他沒有去刪你，其實整個行政院所有各個不同的預算，有些刪，有些不刪，有些沒刪，大家都在那邊弄來弄去，弄到最後，坦白講，人民也搞不清楚你是哪裡有刪、哪裡沒刪，所以其實到最後，我覺得都是口水，但是有一個重要的就是業務費，業務費你們被刪了幾成？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：將近五成五。"],["許委員智傑：凍結幾成？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：人事費是凍結七分之四，業務費是凍結10%。"],["許委員智傑：對啊，所以也凍結了，剛才林召委質詢的時候也提到你趕快提出來，我們會儘快協助，這個是10%的部分，那剩下55%的部分，事實上NCC跟全國各個中央部會的業務費被刪減的概念是差不多的，是一樣的，業務費包括水電費，包括臨時人員的人事費，包括電話費、網路費等等，也就是業務費被刪了55%，所以你說其他的預算沒有刪到，但是我做事的能力、我做事的手跟腳就已經都被你綁住了。所以其實有個很簡單的概念，就是在野黨說他們沒有先刪預算的部分，他們都是說哪一項沒有刪，但是你們事情就沒辦法做了，你們就是雖然手和腳沒有被剁掉，但手腳就是被繩子綁起來了，一旦被綁起來就沒辦法有手腳去做事情。所以為什麼全國各中央部會現在做事情這麼困難？原因就是這樣子啊！說實在的，我也很懶得在那邊跟大家口水來口水去的說哪一個有刪、哪一個沒刪，但是從整體來講，業務費部分，全國都刪了三到七成，這三到七成就是在綁你的手跟綁你的腳的，所以我也要呼籲在野黨，業務費的部分，凍結的趕快處理，被刪的如果要追加減就全部一併處理，若各個單位個別處理，到最後就是永遠把手腳都綁住。","我們有線電視的訂閱用戶數現在愈來愈下滑，本來的下降速度還只是幾萬幾萬的減少，現在的下降速度是一減就是十幾萬，所以你可以發現整個有線電視在衰退當中，你認為有沒有什麼機會去補救？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們大概是從三個方面來處理：第一個是從有線基金的補助來要求業者持續加強它的營業；第二個是我們給予鼓勵，因為用戶數的衰減是大環境所致，寬頻發達、OTT崛起，希望它這方面能夠與時俱進，有不少MSO或SO大概都有跟OTT TV結盟，這個是正面的；第三個是我們鼓勵它多強化一些地方頻道內容的自製等等，讓它的客戶黏著度能夠提升。那大家都瞭解通常有線電視業者還做另外的寬頻上網，且寬頻上網的比例大概都是持續在上升當中，跟有線電視這邊其實是有做黃金交叉的趨勢，但無論如何，我們希望它能夠持續維持住一定的黏著度，這是大環境的情況，國外也是有剪線潮。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，你說了很多，這是大環境的因素，我們都知道，OTT的興起造成有線電視的衰退，那很正常，但總是還有一些收視群，就是年輕人看手機、老人看電視，總也還有一部分看電視的數量，不可能都沒有。你剛剛講了那麼多，但我沒有聽到你講到頻道區塊化的部分。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：區塊化之前NCC有在推，當時業者認為措施的改變會造成有些既有業者的利益重分配，他們對此的爭議很大，目前的話，有些MSO大概有依照我們當年的規劃，有部分會在後面的頻位三位數那邊做一個區塊化處理，這個在某種程度上是在順著我們當年的規劃方向去處理，這一點我們予以肯定。"],["許委員智傑：所以你管的是利益分配的問題還是收視群眾大眾的問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：群眾大眾的問題。"],["許委員智傑：那我覺得你剛剛回答的原因很怪噢。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，是因為過程中的利害關係人──頻道業者跟SO之間會有這方面的一些議題。"],["許委員智傑：以人民收視權益為重，這個是成立NCC最大的目的，所以不管背後有多少的利益，你應該要以人民的權益為最大的方向。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，我們當年就是朝這方向來推。"],["許委員智傑：所以區塊化對人民的收視權益有沒有幫助？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該有。"],["許委員智傑：有，那可不可以做？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：做應該是可以做，但是相對地，程序周全上和一些溝通協調上大概還需要投入一些努力。"],["許委員智傑：已經溝通了這麼久，從2020年，恐怕還更早的時候其實我就問過，然後在2020年質詢萬年頻道一事的時候，我還記得我是一個一個問委員，每一位委員都說應該要做，然後從2020年一直到現在，這個我已經問了不下10次以上，比如說我現在請問主委，你認為應不應該要做？站在人民的收視權益來講。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：長遠來看是應該要做。"],["許委員智傑：是啊！這麼多年了，應該要做的事情一直都不做。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有在做，只是到位的程度跟當初規劃預期的有一些落差，剛剛跟委員報告過，有一家MSO大概也已經推出三位數的後面的頻道。"],["許委員智傑：是啊！因為我已經把答案寫在螢幕上面了，人家業者自己可以做，我們NCC沒有辦法要求這麼做嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：它做的跟我們當年規劃的有部分是一致的，但是它並沒有雙載前面基本頻道的部分。"],["許委員智傑：我其實是語重心長，人民收視的權益是最大的目的，既然主委也認為應該要做，我們有沒有機會看到你做成功？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們朝這方向持續努力。"],["許委員智傑：什麼時候可以成功？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會努力，至於期程方面，因為變數很多，我們會盡我們……"],["許委員智傑：半年？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為是重大政策，要由委員會議處理，所以有變數，這部分我現在真的是沒有辦法跟委員回報。"],["許委員智傑：所以你看，我問了4年，還是「努力」，現在追問，還是「努力」！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：但都有在推進當中，業者有在跟上腳步。"],["許委員智傑：我就是拿這個人家已經自主做成的區塊化讓NCC做一個參考，希望NCC為了人民收視權益可以儘快做到，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑召委。","接下來請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159740","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159740","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900e6692ed9b84f74d12ba64e6561398ad09b62a44c83059aaf93c5041e5e26a2c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"11:45:06 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進電視的小組 我當召集人我說你資料給我 法驗調走的你不要給我從來也不給我第二個 我們翁代主委的時候 他跟我講"},{"start":96.485,"end":124.295,"text":"只要他通過什麼資料都給我我就感覺很奇怪他要通過在什麼資料才給我但是還是沒有解決但是陳代主委你來看我的時候我還是一直鼓勵你NCC是一個獨立單位NCC是一個專業審查的單位不要太有政治性的東西"},{"start":125.157,"end":151.388,"text":"所以從早上到現在我剛剛代理主席的時候我看到每一個委員不要任何事情就是立法院我現在只有一個很簡單的例子我要請教陳代主委我們NCC的現在花園人是誰黃祖蜜黃祖蜜嘛好"},{"start":152.561,"end":181.182,"text":"黃淑敏 人家剛才魯明哲委員已經講得很清楚 你講ECMO理論幹什麼所以這些東西啊 我說實在的花園人說實在的 代表單位在花園的時候 要特別小心好 陳主委 我話再說回來現在我們貴單位 NCC的委員"},{"start":183.618,"end":201.602,"text":"也就是王政家委員他公然造謠他造謠他的理由就說現在委員不足的當中就是通通立法院他在他的臉書公開的採訪都這樣講陳太主委這個事情怎麼處理"},{"start":209.824,"end":213.693,"text":"香港人報告NCC委員都是獨立行駛之前獨立行駛之前是業務之內啊陳主委"},{"start":219.38,"end":241.167,"text":"不能這樣 不要閃避這種東西我可以跟你講政策性的東西跟行政院長的職權我不會要求你做但是現在你是代主委耶怎麼一個委員可以代表我們單位去講這些東西來攻擊立法立法院說現在"},{"start":243.885,"end":263.79,"text":"沒有委員就是立法院他可以這樣狗斷嗎我們對媒體是在管這些造謠等等不實報導的東西那你現在NCC的委員公然去造謠到底是誰的錯那我現在問你一句話請問一下"},{"start":266.587,"end":288.844,"text":"我們的預算 業務會如何去刪 那是另外一回事我們的解凍案 你有沒有送上來啦 有沒有程序進行中但是 陳代主委 我特別提醒你交通委員會有幾個單位 都已經送進來了"},{"start":290.987,"end":309.475,"text":"我們兩位召委不是喜智捷排就是我排我們很樂意趕快解凍不要一天到晚好像師父我們立法宴是不動情理好像故意要現在是反而你們行政單位一直在指責立法宴"},{"start":311.007,"end":337.492,"text":"所以陳太子委我一再我一再再強調NCC的單位它是獨立單位它是一個專業單位它是有一定的威信不要太政治化這是我一直在勉勵你的就是該怎麼做就怎麼做行政該怎麼走就該怎麼走我必須要提醒你該送的就趕快送所以啊"},{"start":340.773,"end":369.06,"text":"這個部分我還是希望我們陳代主委這委員可以單獨公開去批評立法院嗎我現在很納悶的是這一點跟委員報告如果在機關的領域內的機關在公領域特別是機關NCC領域內的部分當然是合一制沒有個人的色彩那這邊我們都謹守分級那這個之外的部分就尊重每個人的言論自由"},{"start":370.992,"end":389.133,"text":"這個就言論自由 奇怪啦跟你們有關的就談言論自由我跟你講喔 陳太祖偉我一向我不喜歡對就對 不就都不對我不喜歡在那邊閃來閃去 那沒有意義啦總是要見公婆的陳太祖偉 總是要見公婆 我拜託你"},{"start":390.7,"end":417.503,"text":"查清楚他是代表誰講說委員是造成今天的局面都是立法院這個是有業務利弊關係耶他如果去表述他邪術法律的見解我沒有意見可是把所有責任推到立法院來這點我不認同所以主委你認為還是言論自由嗎"},{"start":419.5,"end":420.962,"text":"他就是NCC委員嘛"},{"start":435.362,"end":458.46,"text":"主委這你就要調查嘛你要約束嘛就像我剛才當主席你們的人把我當成太次長這樣不好嘛沒規律不好互相尊重是有必要的這些本來就是要這樣啊不是這樣嗎所以我還是要拜託下個禮拜我還是排NCC"},{"start":459.841,"end":472.08,"text":"如果你沒有妥善的調查清楚他什麼樣的原因指責立法院全部的責任那很簡單我跟你講我下個禮拜還要追"},{"start":473.086,"end":498.383,"text":"我下個禮拜還要追那剛好很不幸這會期我是當召委所以這件事情他如果不解釋清楚我一定會盯到底我先跟你講另外一個就是主委我說實在的我要很冒昧的請教你750塊3C的審查費你們怎麼算出來的"},{"start":501.51,"end":523.422,"text":"我們是根據規定法第七條辦理審查要收行政規費行政規費包括人工產品直接費用還有材料還有包括其他的間接費用部分對謝謝我們這個請我們處長來補充好你怎麼算出來了我想來想去有時候真的他買一個3C產品差不多50塊或100塊啊你們審查費就要750塊請問一下有人這樣的嗎"},{"start":529.486,"end":547.044,"text":"報告委員那個他3C的產品上面他必須要有那個海關的身份證跟姓名然後他要放上行入還有一個切結書那我們要去這個你們已經送到宴會裡來要延期可能我下個禮拜也有排這個審查啦那我希望"},{"start":548.686,"end":572.507,"text":"處長這裡你們怎麼審查的依據計算出來的東西私底下提供給我們本委員會好不好我們才知道你們這個750說要收就收 說不收就不收這個牽涉到人民的利益關係你們做就做 不做就不做你們說要收750那行政院院長講一句話就會造成民怨你們就馬上收回來"},{"start":573.488,"end":591.117,"text":"我們立法院就是你們備查不備查隨便你們要就要不要就不要這樣的話是有一點似乎不太尊重立法院的意思陳主委所以我希望處長你還是要提供這些資料最後我還要用一點時間就是"},{"start":593.098,"end":603.689,"text":"很多同仁都已經談到換照的問題嘛那其實不是我們不審啊你看公平會也審完了啊"},{"start":605.473,"end":625.835,"text":"那怎麼會不審呢 不是不審的問題啊所以我還是希望啦 因為電視公務台這個也是一個非常嚴重的因為接下來也要審嘛那所以我最後我還是要拜託就是亡羊補老的動作"},{"start":626.936,"end":654.409,"text":"該做的還是要做還是要回歸原來也就是行政無法處理當然你們就不能用行政去處分這些人要延期不延期或者什麼原因應該要讓業者去了解所以不要中斷不要把中斷的責任全部推給立法院這樣的話不好啦"},{"start":655.109,"end":675.516,"text":"因為你們是專業單位真的不要寫政治啊那這樣不好因為你們是專業單位你們是獨立單位所以獨立行駛發揮專業的監督這是很重要的好不好 主委好 沒問題那750那個要提供給粉絲好不好沒問題好 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不用吵架啦這是你們自己的委員啦第一 他覺得呢因為市場過於競爭 獲益分散所以現在的新聞台主要靠業配置入行銷跟政府標案其實我覺得有些適當的比例本來就這樣啦 OK啦可是當過度的時候它會逐步形成"},{"start":95.572,"end":110.039,"text":"台灣的政媒共生集團你覺得是會逐步形成還是已經形成頗久了你自己的感受跟我們報告依現行的衛廣法規定新聞節目是不能被置入的所以這邊的第一點部分是應該會有法規範的"},{"start":117.463,"end":132.852,"text":"那第二點部分它含色範圍其實涉及的部分有些是不在NCC的職權可以處理的範圍那第三點部分深色屏障換照要大翻新或怎麼樣我覺得這些都可以討論過檢討但是要廣泛聽取"},{"start":136.418,"end":152.228,"text":"這個正媒共生集團我不知道因為我問你這個問題你也沒回答嘛那就含混過去了其實就是現在進行是而且已經嚴重的發生了嘛他認為說現在新聞報導不公啦過度政治立場坦白講如果就藍綠白可能都有"},{"start":153.129,"end":177.167,"text":"都有只是誰多誰少大家也很清楚那最後一個是講今天要談的他也覺得現在的深色評鑑甚至換照制度的實質的效能他真的希望能夠更透明而且要建立公正的評鑑指標與評分這倒我有點擔心因為在這整個過程中他參與評鑑他最後的心得是這樣"},{"start":178.547,"end":197.477,"text":"那我們會覺得 哇靠 那你們在整個評鑑的時候 你自己覺得有一些不夠透明 或者標準有問題那我們回來看一下 在我們中天新聞台 這個幻照博會的一個整個的過程其中一個三大理由 第二個理由就是內控與自律機制失靈"},{"start":199.073,"end":224.627,"text":"我是覺得很好奇啦當然這個北高行他的這個就把你們的就行政這個行政處分啊把它打回來當然你說最高刑他有不同的一個見解這個我都知道可是問題我們要看內容發生了什麼事啊對不對也許法律的界線在那邊剛好沒有超過但是道德標準搞不好有超過嘛"},{"start":226.953,"end":250.265,"text":"這蠻可怕的我們先看一下後面好不好發生了什麼事你們換照的標準中天新聞台申請換照109年的6月8號送件了按照你們之前公布的標準107年你們就有公布一個標準什麼配分多 什麼配分少然後就送進去了"},{"start":251.519,"end":280.788,"text":"做好了然後咧你不到差不多三個月的時間五個月你們11月11號呢NCC突然要更改遊戲規則配分標準的比例不太一樣啊就簡單來講 欸不對啊你哪一個稍微舒適多一點我配分多一點的話你就死了啊我的感受是這樣嘛五天之後呢就運用新的換照這個分配表 生效"},{"start":281.869,"end":304.065,"text":"然後再來再兩天 開委員會哇 天衣無縫啊 你知道嗎我覺得棒球比賽啊 最關鍵的要三振的時候啊中天換照被你們三振了但是有一個魔鬼 他投出一個180K的變化球啊你知道嗎 怎麼變的就投手在那邊沒有投 球從哪裡投過來不知道"},{"start":305.151,"end":330.734,"text":"你是不是覺得莫名其妙嗎你知道嗎也許到那個法的邊界你們還要再去討論博威你們要怎麼樣去弄另外一回事可以這樣嗎一個電視台不要講中天現在準備6666一堆人來換照了一堆人來換照囉你們109年已經換了嘛更新這個標準了哇靠他們6月一送進來可不可以這樣搞法你7月8月"},{"start":333.036,"end":339.622,"text":"對現在最高刑事法院講說你可以這樣搞啊因為你們你們這個很專業你們可以這樣搞那有沒有可能"},{"start":341.17,"end":345.392,"text":"這個表格再來換了你說看幾點補充第一點呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":369.5,"end":388.116,"text":"用新的換照部分的話即便用新的換照部分據當時現在的資料來看的話中天當時好像也是處於跟原來用的新換照的配分標準結果是沒有影響的現在主委你知道嗎有時候是一個時機因為你是一個獨立的機關要給人家一個平穩的一個感覺"},{"start":388.837,"end":407.645,"text":"一個一次性的一個比較公信力尤其你遭到重大的一個變革的一個處分你順順的過得都沒人講啦然後你用這樣的一個標準坦白講北高興也看到了嘛雖然這不是最終結果啦但是看到這個問題我覺得你們要去思考"},{"start":408.385,"end":424.365,"text":"一個制度的一個相對的穩定性啊你們想看喔以前早期啊我看以前考聯考啊你有考過聯考嗎大學是聯考嘛你知道嗎每一次我們評論表都出來準備我希望考哪個科系不同的"},{"start":425.026,"end":438.621,"text":"大學科系他有特別數學加50%有一些英文可以加40%我按照我的目標按照我的一個標準我準備了三年要去考的時候結果都已經考完了分數表拿出來如果你改"},{"start":439.91,"end":456.458,"text":"評分的話是真的我覺得很不OK啦那當然你改的這個的部分啦107年到109年我們就看右邊啦評分的標準就是中天最終內控7次跟自律從原本的8分增加了250%到20分"},{"start":460.307,"end":484.583,"text":"那這個部分也不是我說的因為我們至少看到你們在整個這個北高型那也是很多專業的專業的領域的人他提出了這一點我真的是給你建議啊這不是要在翻案什麼東西啊你們以後在處理這樣一個制度的時候我覺得應該要更穩健更慎重你覺得這建議可以接受嗎"},{"start":485.563,"end":495.633,"text":"文的建議是沒問題但是我剛剛跟你講說即便用107年舊的套回去換算的話其實他的分數大概也是很危險的"},{"start":497.469,"end":519.969,"text":"好啦 不要六月一堆電台 一堆人家來弄的時候 你們又弄一些很怪的規矩那最後我想跟你討論一下 這個主秘人黃主秘我看這邊你講了好多次啦 當然可能是跟立法院喊話啦這邊講說 知道啊 只是三位委員啊 沒辦法運作 都講了這麼多嘛然後到了11月20號 你可能周刊完 訪問你報導嘛 說你們"},{"start":524.191,"end":545.658,"text":"將啟動葉克摩條款所以現在NCC委員還是葉克摩躺在那裡嘛對不對所以你覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情我感覺是這樣你講好多次影響非常大影響名聲非常大所以你做了什麼事情呢你做了就是影響這麼大這麼積極除了跟媒體放話之外你到底具體做了些什麼事情"},{"start":546.698,"end":575.748,"text":"我就請教一下 這個主秘先回答啦代理主委已經才剛上任不過代理主委之前也是NCG佔領都要職很久了你們NCG人事同意案剛剛有委員說對啊 去年4、5月就送進來了然後呢前一段第一學期沒有進度嘛但是連那個行政院長到11月執行的時候11月他還在程序委員會我的天啊"},{"start":576.994,"end":593.895,"text":"院長沒有掌握 你們沒有掌握嗎7月12號7月12號當然因為馬上休會不可能馬上處理7月12號已經過了程序委員會程序委員會還要送到院會第二關 覆委了那你知不知道 你當時清不清楚"},{"start":597.311,"end":611.702,"text":"你清不清楚這個流程已經復違了我們剛才主委已經報告這個其實是在行政院那邊的執掌我們不太可能去掌握這個所以我很緊張葉克摩了要死了到底立法院審議如何我不知道"},{"start":612.796,"end":637.467,"text":"我跟你講你不知道不要亂出去傳謠言那我就跟你講7月12號之後我們交通委員會跟教育委員會聯席就可以審查了那我就請教所以你不知道那個陳主委你在之前你是擔任什麼職務就一直是委員嗎委員之前擔任主秘主秘那你知不知道"},{"start":640.039,"end":655.494,"text":"這些訊息如果是在報章媒體公開的話我們大概都掌握情況不是啦 立法院的系統進去哇 我是趙偉好可怕 你NCC你這樣都叫尊重立法院啊你這案子到什麼部分我告訴你不要再騙人了"},{"start":656.587,"end":681.07,"text":"因為我做過幾屆的召委你們連一個凍結案需要的法案三不五時來拜託召委拜託這個先排那個先排你們完全掌握到你們現在還有一堆的案子現在已經在交委會在帶牌你明明就很清楚嘛我想這個組密我們交委會的組密組密我請教一下現在"},{"start":682.581,"end":708.867,"text":"7月12號已經排入委員會了嘛排入交付審查那副委那召委可不可以排來進行審查按照現在的法律可以還是不可以原則上是可以好就簡單來講那所以不管是陳主委黃祖密你們從去年的7月10號就副委不管你真不知道假不知道都是失職"},{"start":710.137,"end":727.544,"text":"七月休會九月下旬開會了開會了你有沒有拜託來兩位你有沒有拜託我是上會局的召委你有沒有拜託陳書業召委你有沒有拜託教文委會哪位召委拜託哪位召委幫你排案有還是沒有"},{"start":729.673,"end":751.1,"text":"我想應該是有溝通有反應啦跟誰反應啦來黃主席你最後一講過來講一下你拜託了哪一位哪一位召委四位召委嘛藍綠各一位啊我沒有被拜託剩三位你拜託了誰幫你排NCC委員審查因為進入夜客模了我很緊張你拜託了誰老實說啦"},{"start":753.607,"end":761.298,"text":"陳倫我們剛剛主委報告的我們真的有去了解但是你說拜託這件事情那個執掌頭真的是不在我們我們不知道怎麼去拜託"},{"start":762.875,"end":785.944,"text":"拜託排案 你們每次凍結案 這麼拜託召委的不要這樣騙啦 都許志定委員 這個都聽不下去啦不是啦 這個案子 你要拜託很急 大家來排案嘛反正公聽會嘛 大家來講啊 對不對那我是覺得 你們現在這樣的事 你們自己去施執包括現在 現在喔 6月3日要審查 根本來得及啊"},{"start":786.664,"end":796.39,"text":"來得及啊現在案子行政院院長自己不重視自己不重視他說的一快不一慢我認為這個事情一快不一慢因為從今年第一次立法院開議到現在9日開議到現在11月份你知道NCC的人士是哪個委員會來審查嗎那在審查過程中你知道嗎"},{"start":816.055,"end":821.921,"text":"卡在程序委員會復委了兩個月 行政院長還說卡在"},{"start":835.814,"end":863.52,"text":"好 希望再快一點 那12月也沒提12月也沒有提 1月也沒提 2月也沒提 現在3月了我就說不知道你們有什麼陽謀陰謀啊但是我今天直接講清楚你們要擺亂你們要擺亂你們不審就算了那我們是建議啦如果民進黨黨團有什麼樣的建議叫你們不要審那沒關係我們拜託林國成委員來吧 你可以 我今天跟你講囉你急你就拜託因為沒有新案所以過去這四個名單"},{"start":864.76,"end":881.189,"text":"有一個不合法規還有三個可以繼續來審如果你們急你們就這樣做如果你們沒有動作就表示你們不急未來換照產生任何東西來講行政院院長跟通常會你們要負全責現在牌都來得及喔好謝謝 走謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":743,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時29分）謝謝主席，有請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：陳主委好。早上我注意你在整個詢答的過程中，感覺跟之前陳律師的風格有所不同，我也瞭解畢竟你比較實務、是整個電信相關的專業出身的，我們希望以就事論事的態度，不要來立法院吵架，你覺得呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：都是要依法行政，發揮自己所知的專業。"],["魯委員明哲：當然很多人期待新的代理主委能夠有新的態度、新的思維。我要請教一下，上一屆有兩位委員離開，當時你們都是經當時行政院長精挑細選，兩位蠻專業的，但是離開卸任的時候特別寫了一個公開的建言，不光是給我們看，最主要是對NCC的建言。其中主要有三點，我之前也問過陳前主委，就感覺吵架了，其實不用吵架，這是你們自己的委員寫的。第一，他覺得因為市場過於競爭，獲益分散，所以現在的新聞台主要靠業配、置入行銷跟政府標案，其實我覺得有些適當的比例本來就是這樣啦，OK啦，可是當過度的時候，這會逐步形成臺灣的政媒共生集團。你覺得是會逐步形成？還是已經形成頗久了？就你自己的感受。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，依現行的衛廣法規定，新聞節目是不能被置入的，所以這邊的第一點部分應該會有法規範。第二點部分，它涵攝範圍所涉及的部分有些是不在NCC的職權處理範圍。第三點部分，申設、評鑑、換照要大翻新或怎麼樣，我覺得這些都可以討論或檢討，但是要廣泛聽取外界的意見。"],["魯委員明哲：有關政媒共生集團，我不知道，因為我問你這個問題，你也沒回答嘛，就含混過去了，其實就是現在進行式，而且已經嚴重地發生了嘛，他也認為現在新聞報導不公，過度政治立場。坦白講，如果就藍、綠、白可能都有，只是誰多誰少，大家很清楚。最後一個是今天要談的，他也對現在申設、評鑑，甚至換照制度的實質效能希望能夠更透明，而且要建立公正的評鑑指標與評分，這我有點擔心，因為在這整個過程中，他參與評鑑，他最後的心得是這樣，那我們會覺得：哇靠！那你們在整個評鑑的時候，你自己覺得有一些不夠透明或者標準有問題。","我們回來看一下，對於中天新聞台換照駁回的整個過程，其中有三大理由，第二個理由就是內控與自律機制失靈，我是覺得很好奇，當然北高行就把你們的行政處分打回來，當然你說最高行有不同的見解，這個我都知道，可是問題是我們要看內容發生了什麼事啊，對不對？也許法律的界線在這邊剛好沒有超過，但是道德標準搞不好有超過嘛，這蠻可怕的。我們先看一下後面，發生了什麼事？你們換照的標準，中天新聞台申請換照，109年6月8日送件了，按照你們之前公布的標準，107年你們就有公布一個標準，什麼配分多、什麼配分少，然後就送進去了。做好了，然後差不多5個月，11月11日NCC突然要更改遊戲規則，配分標準的比例不太一樣，就簡單來講，欸？不對呀，哪一個稍微疏失多一點，要是配分多一點的話，你就死了啦！我的感受是這樣嘛！五天之後就運用新的換照分配表生效了，然後再兩天開委員會。哇！天衣無縫啊！你知道嗎？我覺得棒球比賽最關鍵的是要三振的時候，中天換照被你們三振了，但是有一個魔鬼，他投出一個180K的變化球，你知道怎麼變的嗎？結果投手在那邊沒有投，球從哪裡投過來不知道，你這不是會覺得莫名其妙嗎？你知道嗎？也許到那個法的邊界，你們還要再去討論駁回，你們要怎麼去弄是另外一回事，但是可以這樣嗎？一個電視台，不要講中天，現在6月準備有一堆人來換照了，一堆人來換照囉，你們在109年已經換了嘛，更新這個標準了。哇靠！他們6月一送進來，你可不可以這樣搞法？你7月、8月……對，現在最高行政法院講你可以這樣搞啊，因為你們很專業，你們可以這樣搞，那有沒有可能這個表格再來換啊？您說說看。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：幾點補充。第一點，目前呈現的這個甘特圖時間上部分，其實跟實務上大概會有一些落差，因為我們換照配分的部分，在中天換照案之前就有好幾台的頻道業者已經適用了，這是第一點補充。第二點補充，我們配分的基準項目沒有變，是配分的比例那邊，即使用新的換照部分，據當時的資料來看，中天當時好像也是處於跟原來用的新換照配分標準結果是沒有影響的。"],["魯委員明哲：主委，你知道嗎？有時候是一個時機啊，因為你是一個獨立的機關，要給人家平穩的感覺，要有一致性的公信力，尤其你遭到重大的一個變革處分，你順順地過的都沒人講啊，然後你用這樣的標準，坦白講，北高行也看到了嘛，雖然這不是最終結果啦，但是看到這個問題，我覺得你們要去思考制度的相對穩定性。我請教你，你有考過大學聯考吧？你知道嗎？每一次的評分表都出來了，我準備要考哪個科系，不同的大學科系有的特別數學加50%，有的英文可以加40%，我按照我的目標、按照我的標準，我準備了3年，當我都已經考完的時候，把分數表拿出來，如果你改評分的話，我真的覺得很不OK啦！當然你改的這個的部分，我們看右邊，107年到109年評分的標準，就是中天最終內控機制跟自律，從原本的8分，增加了250%，已經到20分，這個部分也不是我說的，因為我們至少看到你們在北高行，那也是很多專業領域的人提出了這一點。我真的是給你建議，這不是要再翻案什麼東西，你們以後在處理這樣制度的時候，我覺得應該要更穩健、更慎重，我這個建議你認為可以接受嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員的建議沒問題，但是我剛剛跟你講，即便用107年舊的套回去換算的話，其實它的分數大概也是很危險的。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，不要6月一堆電台來換照的時候，你們又弄一些很怪的規矩。","最後，我想跟黃主秘討論一下，你已經講了好多次，當然可能是跟立法院喊話啦，你講只剩三位委員沒辦法運作，你都講了這麼多嘛，然後到了11月20日，周刊王訪問你的報導，你說你們將啟動「葉克膜條款」，所以現在NCC委員還是葉克膜躺在那裡嘛，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情，我感覺是這樣，你講了好多次，影響非常大，影響名聲非常大，所以你做了什麼事情呢？因為影響這麼大，你這麼積極，除了跟媒體放話之外，你到底具體做了些什麼事情？我就請教一下，請主秘先回答，代理主委才剛上任，不過代理主委之前也在NCC占領要職很久了。你們NCC人事同意案，剛剛也有委員說，是啊！在去年4、5月就送進來了，然後呢？前一段第一學期沒有進度嘛，但是連行政院長到11月質詢的時候，11月喔，它還在程序委員會，我的天啊！院長沒有掌握，你們沒有掌握嗎？7月12日，當然因為馬上休會，不可能馬上處理，7月12日已經過了程序委員會，程序委員會還要送到院會，第二關付委了，那你知不知道？你當時清不清楚？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告……"],["魯委員明哲：你清不清楚這個流程已經付委了？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們主委剛剛已經報告，這個其實是行政院的職掌，我們不太可能去掌握這個……"],["魯委員明哲：所以我很緊張，你說要啟動葉克膜了，快死了！但是到底立法院審議如何，你不知道。我跟你講，你不知道不要亂傳謠言啊！我就跟你講啊，7月12日之後，我們交通委員會跟教文委員會聯席就可以審查了。","繼續我請教陳代理主委，你之前是擔任什麼職務？就一直是委員嘛？有兼任什麼嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員之前擔任主秘。"],["魯委員明哲：擔任主秘，那你知不知道？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這些訊息如果是在報章媒體公開的話，我們大概都掌握了情況。"],["魯委員明哲：不是啦，立法院的系統……哇！我不知道耶，好可怕，你NCC這樣叫尊重立法院啊？你這案子到什麼部分？我告訴你，不要再騙人了，因為我做過幾屆的召委，你們連一個凍結案、需要的法案，三不五時來拜託召委，拜託這個先排、那個先排，你們完全掌握到，你們現在還有一堆的案子，現在已經在交委會在待排，你明明就很清楚嘛。","我現在請教交委會的主秘，現在7月12日已經排入委員會了，交付審查，那付委，那召委可不可以排來進行審查？按照現在的法律，可以還是不可以？"],["李主任秘書健行：原則上是可以。"],["魯委員明哲：好，就簡單來講，所以不管是陳主委、黃主秘，你們從去年的7月12日就付委，不管你真不知道還是假不知道，都是失職，7月休會，9月下旬開會了，開會了，你們兩位有沒有來拜託？我是上會期的召委，你們有沒有來拜託陳素月召委？有沒有拜託教文委會哪位召委？有沒有拜託哪位召委幫你排案子？有還是沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我想應該是有溝通、有反映。"],["魯委員明哲：跟誰反映？來，黃主秘，你最會講，你來講一下，你拜託了哪一位召委？有四位召委嘛，藍綠各一位啊，我沒有被拜託，那麼剩三位，你拜託了誰幫你排NCC委員審查？因為已經進入葉克膜了，你很緊張，所以你拜託了誰？老實說啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：誠如我們剛才主委報告的，我們真的有去瞭解，但是委員說拜託這件事情，那個職掌真的不在我們，我不知道怎麼去拜託。"],["魯委員明哲：拜託排案，你們每次對於凍結案不拜託召委的？不要這樣騙啦，許智傑委員都聽不下去啦！不是啦，這個案子你要拜託，很急，大家來排案嘛，反正公聽會嘛，大家來講啊，對不對？那我是覺得對於你們這樣是你們自己失職，包括現在，現在喔，6月30日審查，根本來得及啊，來得及啊，現在案子行政院院長自己不重視，自己不重視，他說的要宜快不宜慢。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：卡在程序委員會，付委了兩個月，行政院院長還說卡在……他說希望再快一點，但是12月沒提，1月也沒有提，2月也沒提，現在3月了，我就不知道你們有什麼陽謀陰謀啊，但是我今天直接講清楚，你們要擺爛，你們不審就算了。我是建議啦，如果民進黨黨團有什麼樣的建議，叫你們不要審，那沒關係，我們拜託林國成委員。我今天跟你講囉，你急你就拜託，因為沒有新案，所以過去這四個名單，有一個不合法規，還有三個可以繼續來審，如果你們急，你們就這樣做；如果你們沒有動作，就表示你們不急，未來換照產生任何亂象，行政院院長跟通傳會，你們要負全責，現在排都來得及喔！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請林國成委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900e03af105c5f18cfb2ba64e6561398ad09b62a44c83059aafe459cee5de9a21f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:22:15 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反制無人機的技術跟產業鏈也十分重要"},{"start":28.308,"end":44.545,"text":"那現在我們最近有辦蠻多場座談會針對無人機啊低軌衛星等等跟通訊相關的部分那也是在應該是在NCC的主管的這個部分我們在立法院舉辦座談會那裡面有一些"},{"start":45.687,"end":60.584,"text":"不斷的不管是新創企業還是已經比較成熟的企業都有提出來他說在電信管理法裡面的限制裡有關於無人機的反制雷達系統設備它是被NCC視為設置電台那視為設置電台的話變成要每年要繳"},{"start":61.505,"end":84.258,"text":"高額的規費那同時我們一方面在政府的策略裡面是要這個激勵鼓勵甚至有一部分的經費是挹注無人機產業但是另一方面我們還有一些法規上面的限制等於是在限制它的發展那與其把大量的資金你就預入一個產業裡面不如用更多的政策方法在這個"},{"start":85.379,"end":106.526,"text":"可能不合時宜或者是影響到產業發展的地方予以調整那之前我也問過其他的部會那我想請教一下根據電信管理法它架設雷達系統是被視為設置電台每年至少要繳納的這個規費是三千萬元針對這個部分我想請教一下你們的看法是怎麼樣有沒有要做調整"},{"start":107.529,"end":132.28,"text":"是的跟委員報告我先再補充一點背景資訊在3月19日的時候我有質詢國發會的劉主委主委他是有表示說會跟NCC來協調不知道你有沒有聽到相關的消息可能我們業管處有跟對方在聯繫但是我這邊也要跟委員報告來釐清大概我直接先講結論好了這個應該是"},{"start":135.191,"end":157.649,"text":"網路部分沒有那麼多錢應該是平均使用費那我跟委員報告那專用電台雷達視為專用電台他在NCC目前的大概有四種規費要收一個網路設置審查一個電台設置審查一個電台審驗一個電台執照費那最貴的第一項是六千塊然後兩千塊然後七百塊然後五百塊加起來才"},{"start":159.851,"end":181.287,"text":"9200塊那但是這邊委員這powerpoint這邊右邊這邊是是平均使用費的減免係數那跟委員報告以往在數位部成立之前都是在NCC那邊是我們來處理那跟委員報告一個好消息是那平均收費使用辦法的第6這個執法的第6條有規定符合"},{"start":182.328,"end":192.735,"text":"公共利益的報行政院可以免收那這部分我個人很清楚我以前在那一處我處理過淘機的反鳥機雷達就是因為鳥機會撞到飛機那一塊當年處理幫交通部處理過那一塊後來淘機的那種防鳥機雷達後來是沒有收錢所以這一塊是可以處理的"},{"start":202.645,"end":230.1,"text":"所以你剛才意思是說如果是符合國家利益的話是可以做特殊報行政院之後可以免收報行政院之後可以免收那所以我們剛才提到的這個有些是依照規費可能要這種大筆的金額只要報行政院也是平均使用費平均使用費符合公共利益的報行政院是可以免收那我剛才講到的這個什麼依照公示繳納規費三千萬元不存在嗎"},{"start":231.209,"end":242.221,"text":"那個應該是平均使用費因為雷達會用到很大的頻寬跟功率所以他那個收費的那個參數裡頭這兩個參數是半年大平均使用費裡頭有兩個參數一個是使用的頻寬一個是發射的功率"},{"start":249.81,"end":276.23,"text":"那我們剛才講到頻率使用費這個部分我們現在講的是要發展的是這個無人機跟反制無人機產業那你剛才提到的提報行政院的部分他是符合通例還是只是相對是個案應該是個案那如果我們要鼓勵這個產業的發展因為我們這是國家的一個重大政策的話你覺得有什麼樣的方向可以去檢討或者還是你認為說這個是必須要存在的"},{"start":277.183,"end":292.875,"text":"跟委員報告應該說是這個機制已經有了比方說陶機它也有反無人機的那種部件那先前我剛剛跟委員報告以往防鳥擊雷達那個也有試用過了所以這一塊其實可以可以圓滿處理的"},{"start":294.576,"end":320.481,"text":"因為我們現在討論的是在針對產業而不是針對哪一個地方它是你說你剛剛講是公共利益甚至桃園機場但是我們講的是整個產業鏈我們現在講的不是說取消而是說是否要調整調整之後是否可以因為我們現在有一個政策的工具是要挹注這個無人機產業跟反制無人機產業但是另外一個政策的工具它可能是在規範上面等於是抑制它的成長跟發展所以我想請教的是說"},{"start":321.682,"end":326.732,"text":"針對這樣子的部分你們有沒有想要調整或是說有沒有針對這個地方來去邀請這個企業公聽會裡面來去討論"},{"start":332.159,"end":357.634,"text":"如果是反制無人機剛剛已經跟我們報告過了大概有可以處理反制無人機是沒有問題那如果一般無人機的促進他的發展那一塊我們知道嘉義這邊有做一個類似的一個無人機的一個重要的hub那這一塊如果相關的規費上有需要來做incentive這一塊的話我們會來檢討但是跟我們報告過那剛剛我們前面講的"},{"start":358.795,"end":380.09,"text":"相關規則其實不高啦 如果需要來檢討我們會回去來檢討對 那就是再麻煩來檢討一下因為我們剛才提到你剛剛講的這一個還是相當對於新創產業來講還是相當大而獨的啦那我們希望說至少可以的話是否是因為我們都已經有無人機產業園區 那有沒有相關的"},{"start":381.411,"end":405.499,"text":"未來的政策調整可以來一起列入考量裡面那不只是國家不是國家安全國家利益他自己也有他的產業利益在這個產業利益是符合國家利益的所以可能要把這個東西一併納入考量好我們會協同數位部來一起努力就是一般網路設置審核是在我們這邊評估使用費是在數位部那邊好那麻煩就是一起來協調一下我再強調不是說"},{"start":407.645,"end":430.328,"text":"要或不要而是說要做一個調整就像我們的政策工具不可能同時去又是激勵然後又是限制嘛那如果兩邊限制的部分做一些調整的話那激勵的資源就不用放入那麼多這其實就是一個國家一個平衡點的一個尋求那兩個政策工具可能彼此之間可能會打架所以說我們還是希望說能夠來檢討一下好不好好沒問題好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時22分）請代理主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好，無人機產業在五大信賴產業中是屬於軍工產業非常重視的一環，除了無人機產業之外，反制無人機技術及其產業鏈也十分重要。最近有辦滿多場座談會，針對無人機、低軌衛星等等跟通訊相關的部分，也應該是NCC主管的部分。我們在立法院舉辦座談會，裡面有一些不管是新創企業還是比較成熟的企業都有提出來，在電信管理法的限制裡，有關無人機的反制雷達系統設備是被NCC視為是電台，視為電台就每年要繳高額的規費，同時我們一方面在政府的策略裡面是要激勵、鼓勵，甚至有一部分的經費是挹注無人機產業，可是另一方面我們還有一些法規上面的限制，等於是在限制它的發展。與其把大量的資金挹注一個產業裡面，不如用更多的政策方法，對於可能不合時宜或者是影響到產業發展的地方予以調整。之前我也問過其他的部會，我想請教一下，根據電信管理法，架設雷達系統是被視為設置電台，每年至少要繳納的規費是3,000萬元，針對這個部分我想請教一下你們的看法是怎麼樣，有沒有要做調整？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員冠廷：我先再補充一點背景資訊，在3月19日的時候，我有質詢國發會劉主委，主委有表示會跟NCC來協調，不知道你有沒有聽到相關的消息？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：可能我們業管處有跟對方在聯繫，但是我也要跟委員報告來釐清，我直接先講結論好了，網路部分沒有那麼多錢，應該是頻率使用費。我跟委員報告，雷達視為專用電台，NCC目前大概有4種規費要收，一個網路設置審查，一個電台設置審查，一個電台審驗，一個電台執照費，最貴的第一項是6,000元，其他分別是2,000元、700元、500元，加起來才9,200元。委員的PPT右邊是頻率使用費的減免係數，跟委員報告，以往在數位部成立之前都是在NCC處理，跟委員報告一個好消息是，頻率收費使用辦法的子法第六條有規定，符合公共利益的報行政院可以免收，這部分我個人很清楚，我以前在那一處，我處理過桃機的反鳥擊雷達，就是因為鳥擊會撞到飛機那一塊，當年幫交通部處理過那一塊，後來桃機的反鳥擊雷達是沒有收錢的，所以這一塊是可以處理的。"],["陳委員冠廷：你的意思是，如果符合國家利益就可以……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報行政院之後可以免收。"],["陳委員冠廷：報行政院之後可以免收，所以我們剛才提到的有些依照規費這種可能大筆的金額，只要報行政院……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：頻率使用費符合公共利益的報行政院是可以免收。"],["陳委員冠廷：那我剛才講到的繳納規費3,000萬元不存在嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那應該是頻率使用費，雷達會用到很大的頻寬跟功率，所以收費的參數裡頭，這兩個參數是扮演很大的角色。"],["陳委員冠廷：你剛剛講的是頻寬使用費？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：頻率使用費。頻率使用費裡頭有兩個參數，一個是使用的頻寬，一個是發射的功率。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們剛才講到頻率使用費這個部分，我們現在講的是要發展無人機跟反制無人機產業，那你剛剛提到的提報行政院的部分，它是符合通例還是相對只是個案？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該是個案。"],["陳委員冠廷：應該是個案，那如果我們要鼓勵產業的發展，因為這是國家的一個重大政策的話，你覺得有什麼樣的方向可以去檢討？或者你認為這個還是必須要存在的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，應該說這個機制已經有了，比方桃機也有反無人機的布建，先前我跟委員報告，以往防鳥擊雷達也有適用過了，所以這一塊其實是可以圓滿處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們現在談論的是針對產業，而不是針對哪一個地方，你剛剛講公共利益，甚至桃園機場，但是我們講的是整個產業鏈，我們現在講的不是說取消，而是說是否要調整，調整之後是否可以，因為我們現在有一個政策的工具是要挹注無人機產業跟反制無人機產業，但是另外一個政策的工具可能是在規費上面等於是抑制它的成長跟發展，所以我想請教的是，針對這樣的部分，你們有沒有想要調整？或是有沒有針對這個部分邀請企業舉行公聽會來做討論？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這是兩個部分，如果是反制無人機，剛剛已經跟委員報告過了，大概可以有處理的方案，這是沒有問題。至於對無人機促進發展那一塊，我們知道嘉義有針對無人機做一個重要的hub，那這一塊如果在相關的規費上有需要做incentive的話，我們會來檢討，但是跟委員報告過，剛剛我們前面講的，其實相關的規費不高啦，如果需要來檢討，我們回去來檢討。"],["陳委員冠廷：那就再麻煩檢討一下，因為你剛剛講的這個，這對於新創產業來講還是相當大額度的，希望說至少可以的話，因為我們都已經有無人機產業園區，對於未來政策調整是不是可以一起列入考量？不只是國家安全、國家利益，也有它的產業利益在，這個產業利益是符合國家利益的，所以可能要把這個東西一併納入考量。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們會協同數位部來一起努力，一般網路設置審核是在我們這邊，頻率使用費是在數位部那邊。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，麻煩一起來協調一下。我再強調，不是說要或不要，而是說要做一個調整，就像我們的政策工具不可能同時又是激勵，然後又是限制，如果對於限制的部分做一些調整的話，激勵的資源就不用放入那麼多，這其實就是尋求國家的一個平衡點，否則兩個政策工具可能彼此之間會打架，所以我們還是希望能夠來檢討一下，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","繼續請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9002e15e2ac939aebbf2ba64e6561398ad09b62a44c83059aaf6459bee0242884af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:03:29 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有請陳代理主委請坐位主委好"},{"start":11.521,"end":28.792,"text":"主委早 那我想剛剛聽到我們國民黨的委員在質詢我個人是覺得這個有點匪夷所思這個你們的經營度的總預算 呈如剛剛我們主席講的這個凍結了50% 然後又被沒有 刪除了50%的業務費 然後凍結了10%所以總金額目前看起來少了4300多萬"},{"start":37.938,"end":46.864,"text":"主委我想你們這樣子你們都不覺得很艱苦嗎有 現在就是覺得非常的拮据"},{"start":48.274,"end":68.064,"text":"那結局當然我們要想辦法來解決那以我自己個人來覺得來講我們像我們昨天去交通委員到屏東考察那我們交通部的官員我們也在看說這個你們上半年恐怕還可以過得去應付得了但下半年怎麼辦如果這個預算不解凍"},{"start":69.224,"end":96.337,"text":"然後沒有再把它增加回來那後續對你們不管不管是業務的影響包含像我們NCC有水電費通訊費跟土地租金之外那我想對百姓的影響更是嚴峻那包含我們所謂的一個線上申請的一個功能然後網路跟電信的一個基礎服務的部分我想這也影響整個政府公共這個服務的一個運作那主委你怎麼看待這件事情"},{"start":96.98,"end":125.868,"text":"我認為沒錯不管是我們的業務即便是它的推動的主體有些是在通常進行但是它都是資訊化都是用在我們單位預算裡頭要使用到的機房機房還有資訊系統裡頭的通訊費跟水電費那邊如果這邊都斷的話幾乎不僅僅手腳斷大概是大腦大概也去掉一半所以不能又要馬而匪又要馬而不吃草嗎主委認同"},{"start":126.642,"end":153.831,"text":"認同所以我們還是要趕快來努力希望我們在野黨的立委能夠支持讓我們的預算能夠再恢復回來那主委我想針對屏東縣過去本席一直在強調一個高抗災基地台的一個設置跟我們一個電性的一個韌性的強化的部分的功能那我想包含過去不管是交通部也好數位部也好還有我們NCC我都諮詢過但是很遺憾到底你現在什麼樣要付這個錢花好像都三不贊"},{"start":155.784,"end":172.765,"text":"跟委員報告這個經濟台通訊的司機等權益我們都要求業者特別是業者最近有合併案或者說一些平率的移轉的處分案我們都有在處分裡頭有付款要求甚至於有些是他們在自願承諾的部分我們都持續進行"},{"start":173.746,"end":191.178,"text":"那高抗災難部分過去會有一些補助那因為補助在是產業輔導部分在數位部成立之後移轉到數位部那這邊我們都有持續去恰這個委員首代的一些需求也跟數位部來聯繫那細節部分我們是請我們南區處的劉處長來補充"},{"start":194.898,"end":195.138,"text":"高慷在基地台"},{"start":226.099,"end":248.432,"text":"主委我想是這樣子就是因為屏東縣福原遼闊我們有33個鄉鎮市我們有山窟有離島有沿海地區這些每逢我們的這個颱風或好雨容易受到很大的一個天然的災害的一個影響尤其這通訊很重要的我常常在開玩笑的說我們各自的指揮中心都電信中斷這是要怎麼支援救災這很嚴重的問題"},{"start":251.734,"end":267.63,"text":"那所以我想還是要拜託一下我們主委是不是後續我們再跟 找一下我們會長 數位部我們大家一起來討論針對我們一些比較需要的一個區域這不是說每次你們要設就設應該是要把它放在我們通訊品質不好的地方來設沒有那個意義"},{"start":269.532,"end":282.573,"text":"像有的地方已經通訊品質很好,你還塞在那裡真的沒差勁啦請你再針對我們通訊品質真的比較不好的地方尤其像山區偏鄉的部分我們強化了這個部分,這樣好不好好,沒問題,我們持續努力"},{"start":283.677,"end":309.943,"text":"好主委那我想針對我們這個目前我們統計去年我們通訊傳播服務申訴的案件總共有6000多件那其中電信服務的申訴案件高達6162件佔了97.3%那顯示我們這個電信服務的一個電信化契約跟這些消費者的權益保障是有很大的一個落差那針對這個部分主委這邊怎麼處理後續怎麼處理"},{"start":312.172,"end":339.696,"text":"跟委員報告電信的定型化企業部分我們最近有修改主要著重在各自的保護方面那另外針對申訴的部分我們在去年也成立這個電銷中心依據電信管理法相關的規則來設立那目前他的處理量他大概負責上塊部分第一個是電信服務申訴的一些諮詢以及協調以及這個宣導那也要做成定期的報告那"},{"start":340.456,"end":363.151,"text":"相關的細節部分我們是不是請我們黃副處長來補充說明報告委員那個電銷中心這邊我們大概我們大概有一些基本的統計譬如說我們一開始在111年其實我們依據電管法成立電銷中心平均每個月500多件那最近其實大家可能"},{"start":364.833,"end":376.624,"text":"認知上可能覺得電信消費中心很多其實在我們近期的平均大概譬如說像13年的平均每個月500也是500出頭而已大概有逐步減緩那後續的話我們會強化譬如說請電線電銷中心跟電信業者大家多多溝通"},{"start":383.39,"end":399.836,"text":"那在針對一些比較經常發生的一些消費增速案件我們其實都有定期的工作會議請電信業者來檢討譬如說那個資訊透明化是否不足強化資訊透明化的和服務流程的改進大概以上簡單說明 謝謝"},{"start":402.202,"end":423.877,"text":"也跟委員補充說明我們的行政資訊透明化我們會把各家的受理的申訴量也會公佈在我們的官網讓民眾來資訊讓形成給業者改進的一個動力就是這方面我們都一直持續有這個機制在處理主委我覺得你們都講得很輕鬆很愉快但是因為我們自己在服務處接到的案件"},{"start":424.537,"end":442.898,"text":"很多鄉親尤其一些長輩都說用出來的那個電信服務中心在籤什麼東西他也不知道就給他籤籤的就把他搬出去了這個真的是對鄉親來講是第一個沒有保障第二個也容易變成這個詐騙集團利用的一個工具這部分要怎麼去做後續的處理"},{"start":444.302,"end":469.657,"text":"如果郭中山我們請電信業者來注意那因為現在有涉及到打造所以這方面東西我們會請他一方面加強Loss KYC一方面也要讓他感受讓民眾受理申請受理民眾的申請的時候能夠讓他的這個體驗感覺會比較自在一點這邊我們會請業者來要求他來 甚至很多就是秘密請要簽了高費率的"},{"start":470.457,"end":488.913,"text":"一個費率,這個要繳很多錢,繳我們送藝術的也不知道,這要怎麼辦?這邊的話,我們都有要求業者不可以用誘導式的去強迫推銷高資貸方案所以我跟他講說,你就付個一千塊,就可以送什麼東西,就把它搶下去,結果那個東西就用不到了"},{"start":491.158,"end":505.637,"text":"那這方面我們會要求業者在行銷上必須要注意到這方面的問題不可以有強制推銷或者說半推就是半強制的方式我們這邊都會持續來要求業者不可以這樣做"},{"start":506.318,"end":531.129,"text":"主委我知道我們前幾天有召開了一個電信服務定期契約化的一個草案一個說明會那我想既然我們有做這樣一個措施那也希望要落實尤其我們整合受災真的是要防範這個我們的不當的一個推銷然後甚至我們詐騙器利用這些長輩利用一些年輕人這個作為一個詐騙工具的一個誘導這個部分我們真的要注意一下"},{"start":532.113,"end":547.939,"text":"好的我們會這方面來繼續加強好那最後我想這個NCC委員人數不足的這個困境我想還是要想辦法來解決要不然整個這個業務撒不走我想對百姓的權益真的影響非常的嚴重那主委請問這個部門你有什麼想法嗎"},{"start":551.794,"end":577.6,"text":"就是依法行政那目前就是我們現在NCC的情境也是就是依現在組織法的規定來處理運作的那外界有些誤解部分其實我們也發新聞稿就是因為確實是因為必須要法定員而總而過半才能夠組成委員會那現在是沒有辦法組成的我們會在現有的框架內做可以做的空間的部分把做主做滿"},{"start":579.011,"end":592.516,"text":"主委我還是建議這個有時候對外說明的時候應該把這個你們的未來想要做的工作跟困境要講清楚啦講清楚說明白讓外界更加清楚不要自己一直被一路挨打又不會挨就很難過了謝謝委員支持謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":621,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時3分）謝謝主席，有請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早。剛剛聽到國民黨委員的質詢，我個人是覺得這個有點匪夷所思，誠如剛剛我們主席所講的，你們今年度的預算被刪除了50%的業務費，然後凍結了10%，所以總金額目前看起來少了四千三百多萬，主委，你們這樣子都不會覺得很痛苦嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，現在就是覺得非常地拮据。"],["徐委員富癸：這個當然我們要想辦法來解決，以我自己個人來講，像昨天交通委員會到屏東考察，我們跟交通部的官員也有提到，你們上半年恐怕還可以過得去、應付得了，但下半年怎麼辦？如果這個預算不解凍，然後沒有再把它增加回來，後續對你們不管是業務的影響，包含像NCC的水電費、通訊費跟土地租金之外，我想對百姓的影響更是嚴峻，包含所謂的線上申請功能、網路跟電信基礎服務的部分，我想這也影響到整個政府公共服務的運作，請問主委怎麼看待這件事情？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員說的沒錯，有關我們的業務，即便是推動的主體有些是在通傳基金，但是它都是資訊化，都是我們單位預算裡要使用到的機房及資訊系統裡頭的通訊費跟水電費，如果連這邊都斷的話，不僅僅是手腳斷，大概大腦也去掉一半了。"],["徐委員富癸：對嘛，所以不能又要馬兒肥又要馬兒不吃草嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：認同。"],["徐委員富癸：認同啦，所以我們還是要趕快來努力，希望在野黨的立委能夠支持讓我們的預算能夠再恢復回來！","主委，針對屏東縣，過去本席一直在強調高抗災基地臺的設置跟電信韌性強化的功能，過去不管是交通部也好，數位部好，還有NCC，我都質詢過，但是很遺憾，到底現在是誰要負責這個工作？好像都抓不到頭緒耶！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，基地臺通訊是基本權益，我們都要求業者，特別是如果業者最近有合併案或是一些頻率的移轉處分案，我們都在處分裡頭有附款要求，甚至於有些是他們自願承諾的部分，我們都持續進行。","在高抗災的部分，過去會有一些補助，因為補助是在產業輔導的部分，在數位部成立之後，已經移轉到數位部了，我們都有持續去洽委員所關心的一些需求，也有跟數位部來聯繫。有關細節部分，我請南區處劉處長來補充。"],["劉處長豐章：報告委員，目前屏東縣的部分，我們在104年到113年已經有建置了30座高抗災的基地臺，今年度預計要建設6座的高抗災基地臺，目前是只要民眾有需求或是委員為民陳情的話，我們都會請業者及當地民眾來做評估，評估好之後，如果土地沒有問題且民眾也支持的話，我們都會請業者儘快來建設。以上報告。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我想是這樣子，因為屏東縣幅員遼闊，我們有33個鄉鎮市，有山區、有離島，也有沿海地區，每逢颱風或豪雨就容易受到天然災害的影響，所以通訊是非常重要的，我常常開玩笑說，如果我們很多的指揮中心都電信中斷了，這樣要怎麼指揮救災，所以這是很嚴重的問題！所以我還是拜託一下主委，是不是後續再找數位部大家一起來討論？針對我們一些比較需要的區域，這不是你們說要設6座就設的，應該是要把它放在我們通訊品質不好的地方來設才有意義啊，有的地方的通訊品質已經很好了，你還設在那裡的話，真的是浪費錢啦！是不是應該針對我們通訊品質真的比較不好的地方，尤其像山區、偏鄉的部分，我們來強化這個部分，這樣好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題，我們持續努力。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，依據相關的統計資料顯示，去年NCC通訊傳播服務申訴案件總共有六千多件，其中電信服務的申訴案件高達6,162件，占97.3%，顯示我們電信服務的定型化契約跟消費者的權益保障是有很大的落差，針對這個部分，主委這邊怎麼處理？後續是怎麼處理的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，有關電信的定型化契約部分，我們最近有修改，主要是著重在個資的保護方面。另外，針對申訴的部分，我們在去年也成立了電消中心，是依據電信管理法的相關規則來設立，目前它大概負責三個部分，包括電信服務申訴的一些諮詢及協調，以及宣導，也有做成定期的報告。相關的細節部分，我請黃副處長來補充說明。"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，電消中心這邊，我們大概有一些基本的統計，譬如一開始在111年我們依據電管法成立電消中心，平均每個月五百多件，大家可能在認知上覺得電信消費中心很多，其實以我們近期的平均來說，譬如像113年的平均，每個月也是五百出頭而已，大概有逐步減緩，後續的話，我們會強化，譬如說請電消中心跟電信業者大家多多溝通，那再針對一些經常發生的消費申訴案件，我們其實都有定期的工作會議，請電信業者來檢討。譬如說資訊透明化是否不足，強化資訊透明化和服務流程的改進。以上簡單說明，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：也跟委員補充說明，我們的行政資訊透明化，我們會把各家受理的申訴量公布在我們的官網，讓民眾知悉，也給業者改進的動力，這方面我們都一直持續有這個機制在處理……"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我覺得你們都講得很輕鬆、很愉快，但是以我們自己在服務處接到的案件，很多鄉親，尤其一些長輩，都說他被帶去那個電信服務中心，要簽什麼東西他也不知道，就叫他簽一簽，就給他辦手機了。這個對鄉親來講真的是，第一個沒有保障，第二個也容易變成詐騙集團利用的工具，這個部分要怎麼去做後續的處理？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果溝通上，我們會請電信業者來注意，因為現在有涉及到打詐，所以這方面的東西，我們會請它一方面加強落實KYC，一方面也要讓它在受理民眾申請的時候，能夠讓民眾體驗的感覺比較自在一點，這部分我們會要求業者來改善。"],["徐委員富癸：對，甚至很多就莫名其妙地簽了一個高費率，一個月要繳很多錢，也不知道繳什麼意思的，這種要怎麼辦？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分的話，我們都有要求業者不可以用誘導式的去強迫推銷或告知費率方案……"],["徐委員富癸：跟他講說你付個1,000塊就可以送什麼東西，就給它簽下去了，結果東西用不到。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會要求業者在行銷上必須要注意這方面的問題，不可以有強制推銷或者說半強制的方式，我們這邊都會持續來要求業者不可以這樣做。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我知道NCC前幾天有召開一個「電信服務定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項（草案）」說明會，我想既然我們有提出這一個草案，也希望要落實，尤其我們鄉下地方，真的要防範不當的推銷，甚至詐騙集團利用這些長輩，利用一些年輕人，作為誘導詐騙的工具，這個部分我們真的要注意一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好的，這方面我們會繼續來加強。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，NCC委員人數不足的困境，我想還是要想辦法來解決，要不然整個業務推不動，我想對於百姓權益的影響非常嚴重。主委，針對這個部分，你有什麼想法嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：都是依法行政，目前我們NCC現在的情境就是依組織法的規定來處理運作的，外界有些誤解的部分，其實我們也發過新聞稿說明，確實是因為必須要法定員額總額過半才能夠組成委員會議，現在是沒有辦法組成的，我們會在現有的框架內，把可以做的部分做足做滿。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我還是建議，對外說明的時候，應該把你們未來想要做的工作跟困境要講清楚，講清楚說明白，讓外界更加清楚，不要自己一直被一路挨打又不會哀，這樣就很難過了。謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，謝謝委員指示，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90059850bd0243608a42ba64e6561398ad09b62a44c83059aaf048316b8811dac4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:54:04 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主席有請主席請陳代理主委陳代理主委"},{"start":13.894,"end":34.244,"text":"主委好 主委就本席了解您過去長期服務於NCC那承擔了社平與資源管理處的處長還有基礎設施事務處處長基礎設施與資通安全處處長以及主任秘書等職務嘛您應該對NCC整體業務的運作相當熟悉 主委沒錯吧有一定程度的掌握"},{"start":35.049,"end":57.066,"text":"不好意思您說有一定程度的掌握有一定程度的掌握那既然如此對於預算的編列以及相關的計畫還有內容與執行的狀況主委您應該有相當程度的了解與掌握沒有錯吧是那首先本席想先請教主委NCC除了單位預算之外是否還有其他的基金預算還有通傳基金跟有限基金"},{"start":58.206,"end":65.271,"text":"那接下來請問主委114年度NCC的單位預算原本是編列多少最後核定金額是多少"},{"start":65.973,"end":84.297,"text":"原來是編7.4億其中6.4億是人事費那現在人事費不算最後業務費剩下3千多萬原本編列7億4602萬8千元3千758.9萬元那另外業務費凍結10%NCC委員薪資凍結858萬7千元最綜合列是7億843萬9千元主委以上金額無誤吧"},{"start":96.621,"end":122.277,"text":"沒有錯那再請諸位說明通傳基金還有有線廣播電視基金各邊列多少合列多少通傳基金約5.多億有線基金約2.7億對那沒有錯那在去年12月25日委員會決議他所有的提案保留送出那目前二輪也尚未排審預算尚未通過諸位請問在114年度總預算各委員針對NCC的預算提案共提出了幾案"},{"start":124.563,"end":149.651,"text":"這應該我印象中好像是蠻多將近100多案一共是79案那您知道通過幾案嗎抱歉這邊應該是兩案啊沒錯一共79案最後通過的是兩案NCC單位預算若照在野黨三提案三成新台幣一元從大方面來看將影響社皮3C產品以及打炸主委您知道這是誰說的嗎"},{"start":150.868,"end":178.026,"text":"知道 是我說的對 主委沒錯 這是您說的那主委NCC最後是不是合列7億843萬9千元是 沒錯那請問NCC的預算有三道只剩1元嗎沒有 但是當初的說法是說如果那個案子成立的話會有這種情境那有成立嗎我當下的說明是說如果通過的話會有你說的是如果 那有成立嗎後來是沒有主委你有出來做過澄清嗎"},{"start":179.606,"end":192.794,"text":"我們當下的說的是當下的情境講的當下的什麼講的當下的情境是說提案當下的情境您說好情境那請主委再說明社平檢測還有打炸工作相關的預算編在哪"},{"start":194.172,"end":210.356,"text":"主要是在通船基金但是他會用到通船資訊系統資訊系統水電費通訊費都是用在單位預算通船基金基礎設施建立計畫打造的相關預算為132萬4千元射頻器材審查的部分則為9045萬9千元主委是否無誤無誤"},{"start":214.059,"end":240.236,"text":"那也就是說打炸他社平的檢測還有相關的預算不是在這次通過的預算內而且NCC最後核列的是七億多根本不是一塊錢但是跟委員剛剛講他會用到資訊系統資訊系統水費電費通訊費都在單位預算裡頭我知道主委你剛剛有跟黃建豪委員討論嘛您說到是單位預算那我現在跟你討論的是我們的通傳基金我也要跟主委釐清是不是NCC就只剩一塊錢"},{"start":241.426,"end":244.114,"text":"目前最新的情境是因為測案之後就不是"},{"start":245.066,"end":273.862,"text":"OK好謝謝主委那在NCC的79項提案預算中主委您特別拿刪減幅度最高的提案來對外來做發言宣稱將會影響設備3C產品還有打炸的工作還有扯到3C設備沒有辦法上市打炸的政策受阻況且主委您剛有提到這預算中其中有一定的比例是職員的薪資怎麼刪都不可能刪到只剩一塊錢主委沒有錯吧但是人事費是沒辦法留到業務費的"},{"start":275.023,"end":302.74,"text":"人事費沒有辦法流到業務費那我剛才跟你說的 這其中有一定比例是職員的薪資職員薪資其實他就是人事費那您當初說 院民對外說三道只剩一塊錢 民生會獨立機關的主委這樣發言您的用意是什麼我們當初發言是針對那時候提案 我們對發言是針對說當時的提案說那個提案那院民也沒有出來再做澄清啊"},{"start":304.909,"end":325.786,"text":"因為我們當時針對當時的情境來做說明的好接下來我們看一段影片主席不好意思時間請先暫停OK時間繼續"},{"start":337.059,"end":352.215,"text":"這段影片是3月16日在桃園中壢所舉辦的一個宣講造勢活動請問主委NCC的預算算到只剩1塊錢嗎以現在來看當然算不是所以這是不是在散播假消息"},{"start":356.916,"end":383.347,"text":"請主委說明如果以現在結果來看是大概會有落差但是如果說以當初提案的情境來講的話是主委我不知道您後續會不會就是出席這樣的宣傳這樣的宣講造勢活動會不會也跟著對外說NCC的預算被刪到只剩1塊錢誤導社會那對於預算最後的核列數NCC僅在1月23日的時候發新聞稿哭喊說"},{"start":386.554,"end":410.308,"text":"這邊本席要提 與其上網發文不如先想辦法提案進行解凍那 主委您什麼時候要做這樣的動作因為像今天其實盡量場合其實如果委員跟我們的溝通這也是一個資訊露出的一個平台那你們有沒有統計到底短缺多少預算"},{"start":413.149,"end":441.033,"text":"業務費的部分我們主要是都是刪掉的部分大概百分之業務費加上統商加通商大概被刪掉百分之五十五那一塊我覺得是需要補回來的因為那個會我們基本運作會無法維持以目前的情況之下如果我們的土地租金那兩千五百多萬如果沒辦法跟業主跟地主來談這個延後支付的話大概上半年度都會用光光"},{"start":441.949,"end":459.485,"text":"所以只要NCC提出加減預算說明來說服委員我相信只要編列合理 每一位委員都會支持所以也請NCC盡快提出好嗎是 沒問題好 那這邊要 也要這邊在何主委 請主委 這邊跟主委確認"},{"start":461.738,"end":490.594,"text":"那2月5號NCC發文指稱114上半年共計有37家廣電事業它的經營執照屆起那從因為人數不足受到影響那主委什麼時候會送出什麼時候會請院長送出適合的提名名單提名權執權是不在NCC這邊我們相對沒有角色所以去年5月去到在野黨推了NCC的提名委員那行政院就沒有重新提"},{"start":491.994,"end":518.136,"text":"那這邊本席認為NCC已取發新聞帶風向那不如請院長早日提出主委這邊能做到嗎院長部分我們就尊重這個院長的職權我這邊真的是沒有好啦最後本席要嚴正提醒主委啦NCC雖然是獨立機關那就算社會觀感不佳飽受爭議和批評啦還是要保持專業中立的態度的立場好嗎"},{"start":519.073,"end":522.616,"text":"好 明天我們一直都保持這樣的立場好 謝謝主委謝謝主席 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（10時54分）謝謝主席。有請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。主委，就本席了解，您過去長期服務於NCC，曾擔任射頻與資源管理處處長、基礎設施事務處處長、基礎設施與資通安全處處長以及主任秘書等職務，以您的資歷，應該對NCC整體業務的運作相當熟悉，主委，沒錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有一定程度的掌握。"],["邱委員若華：既然如此，對於預算的編列以及相關的計畫，還有內容與執行的狀況，主委應該有相當程度的了解與掌握，沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["邱委員若華：首先，本席想請教主委，NCC除了單位預算之外，是否還有其他的基金預算？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：還有通傳基金跟有線基金。"],["邱委員若華：接下來請問主委，114年度NCC的單位預算原本是編列多少？最後核定金額是多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：原來是編7.4億，其中6.4億是人事費，現在人事費不算，最後業務費剩下三千多萬。"],["邱委員若華：原本編列7億4,602萬8,000元，刪減3,758.9萬元，另外業務費凍結10%、NCC委員薪資凍結858萬7,000元，最終核列是7億843萬9,000元。主委，以上金額無誤吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有錯。"],["邱委員若華：再請主委說明，通傳基金以及有線廣播電視基金各編列多少？核列多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：通傳基金約五點多億，有線基金2.7億。"],["邱委員若華：沒有錯，在去年12月25日委員會決議所有的提案保留送出，目前二輪也尚未排審，預算尚未通過。請問主委，關於114年度總預算，各委員針對NCC的預算提案共提出了幾案？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我印象中還滿多，將近100案。"],["邱委員若華：一共是79案，您知道通過幾案嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該是2案。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯，一共79案，最後通過的是2案。NCC單位預算若照在野黨提案，刪成新臺幣1元，從大方面來看，將影響射頻3C產品以及打詐。主委，您知道這是誰說的嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：知道，是我說的。"],["邱委員若華：對，沒錯，這是您說的。主委，NCC最後是不是核列7億843萬9,000元嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：請問NCC的預算有刪到只剩1元嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，但是當初的說法是，如果那個案子成立的話，會有這種情境。"],["邱委員若華：那有成立嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我當下的說明是，如果通過的話，會有這種情境。"],["邱委員若華：你說的是如果，那有成立嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：後來是沒有。"],["邱委員若華：主委，你有出來做過澄清嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們當下說的是依當下的情境講的。"],["邱委員若華：好，請主委再說明，射頻檢測及打詐工作相關的預算編在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：主要是在通傳基金，但是它會用到通傳資訊系統，資訊系統的水電費、通訊費都是用單位預算。"],["邱委員若華：通傳基金、基礎設施監理計畫、打詐的相關預算為132萬4,000元，射頻器材審查的部分則為9,045萬9,000元，主委，是否無誤？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：無誤。"],["邱委員若華：也就是說，打詐、射頻檢測還有相關的預算不是在這次通過的預算內，而且NCC最後核列的是七億多，根本不是一塊錢。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：但是跟委員報告，剛才講到它會用到資訊系統，資訊系統的水費、電費、通訊費都在單位預算裡頭。"],["邱委員若華：我知道，主委剛才有跟黃健豪委員討論，您說到的是單位預算，但我現在跟您討論的是通傳基金，我也要請主委釐清，是不是NCC就只剩一塊錢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：目前最新的情境是，撤案之後就不是。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝主委。","在NCC的79項提案預算中，主委特別拿刪減幅度最高的提案來對外發言，宣稱將會影響射頻3C產品以及打詐工作，還扯到若3C設備沒有辦法上市，打詐的政策會受阻。況且主委剛剛有提到，這預算中有一定比例是職員的薪資，怎麼刪都不可能刪到只剩一塊錢。主委沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：但是人事費是沒辦法流到業務費。"],["邱委員若華：人事費沒有辦法流到業務費，我剛才跟你說的，這其中有一定比例是職員的薪資。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：職員薪資其實就是人事費。"],["邱委員若華：因為當初您對外說刪到只剩一塊錢，您身為獨立機關的主委，這樣發言，您的用意是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們當初發言是針對那時候的提案，我們對外發言是針對當時的提案說，那個提案要刪成一塊錢……"],["邱委員若華：主委，您也沒有出來再做澄清啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為我們是針對當時的情境來做說明的。"],["邱委員若華：接下來我們來看一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：這段影片是3月16日在桃園中壢所舉辦的宣講造勢活動，請問主委，NCC的預算刪到只剩一塊錢嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：以現在來看，單位預算不是。"],["邱委員若華：所以這是不是在散播假消息？請主委說明。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果以現在的結果來看，大概會有落差，但是如果以當初提案的情境來講的話，是……"],["邱委員若華：主委，我不知道您後續會不會出席這樣的宣講造勢活動，會不會也跟著對外說NCC的預算被刪到只剩1塊錢來誤導社會。對於預算最後的核列數，NCC僅在1月23日的時候發新聞稿哭窮，但在這邊本席要說的是，與其上網發文，不如先想辦法提案進行解凍。主委，您們什麼時候要做這樣的動作？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：像今天這樣的場合，委員跟我們的溝通，其實這也是一個資訊露出的平臺。"],["邱委員若華：你們有沒有統計到底短缺多少預算？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：業務費加上統刪、通刪大概被刪掉55%，那一塊我覺得是需要補回來的，因為那個會造成我們的基本運作無法維持。在目前的情況之下，如果我們的土地租金那二千五百多萬沒辦法跟業主、地主來談延後支付的話，大概上半年度就會用光光。"],["邱委員若華：所以只要NCC提出追加預算的說明來說服委員們，我相信只要編列合理，每一位委員都會支持，所以也請NCC儘快提出，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：好，在這邊也要跟主委確認，2月5號NCC發文指稱，114年的上半年共計有37家廣電事業的經營執照屆期，這是因為委員人數不足而受到影響。主委，什麼時候會送出？什麼時候會請院長送出適合的提名名單？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，提名的職權不在NCC這邊，我們相對沒有角色。"],["邱委員若華：去年5月7號在野黨退回NCC的提名委員，行政院就沒有重新提，本席認為NCC與其發新聞帶風向，不如請院長早日提出，主委這邊能做到嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：院長的部分，我們都尊重院長的職權，我這邊真的是沒有立場……"],["邱委員若華：好啦，最後本席要嚴正提醒主委，NCC雖然是獨立機關，就算社會觀感不佳、飽受爭議可批評，還是要保持專業中立的態度及立場，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒問題，我們一直都保持這種立場。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝NCC。其實刪業務費就是綁手綁腳啦，雖然主預算沒刪，但是業務費刪掉了，就是把你的手腳都綁住了，你手腳被綁住了就沒辦法工作，就是要把綁住手腳的繩索打開，這樣了解嗎？好。","請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9009300413936ba3c117648dfe0a0275fc59b62a44c83059aaf0ec021b76d1d478f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:34:05 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提供給我我相信每年都有進步啦但是我要講的是說需求一直在增加那我們要怎麼樣去因應未來的一個需求這個部分還要再多加一點力道那再來就是我想今天喔 趙偉這個這個題目真的是非常的廣那當然有勞動部"},{"start":333.161,"end":356.931,"text":"我覺得教育部也應該要在在場因為教育部也責無旁貸大家一起來努力教育部在這邊教育部有喔是剛剛沒有叫到你上來對我剛剛就在對剛剛上一場正旭委員在的時候您有在場上不好意思那所以我要談到的是不管是0到2歲專班以及相關的補貼我們綜合性的來談喔應該都要一起來努力啦沒錯沒錯好那這個部分我要再另外請那個勞動部"},{"start":363.444,"end":388.594,"text":"我想請問一下勞動部現在正在研議修正的就業保險法就領滿6個月的育嬰留職停薪的一個津貼雙薪那再增加一個月的薪資津貼我真的看不懂這是什麼意思我想跟請問一下育嬰留停6個月領滿6個月的育嬰留職停薪津貼可以再繼續留停一個月同時多領一個月的津貼嗎這是A B是"},{"start":389.054,"end":410.048,"text":"育嬰留停六個月領七個月的育嬰留職停薪津貼這是B 請問A B到底是哪一個我們現在的方向就是說希望修改修改就業保險法讓新手爸媽領滿育嬰留停六個月者新手爸媽兩個人都可以來申請再多領一個月"},{"start":411.089,"end":427.885,"text":"我想勞動部的用意是鼓勵大家領滿那為什麼不多給一點更減輕大家的負擔委員說明我們先前有回應過就是說因為劉子廷今天的政策目標20年前立法的時候就希望幫助這些新有爸媽不要因為育嬰而要照顧育嬰而離開職場"},{"start":429.406,"end":452.277,"text":"所以它是暫時留職停薪所以我們這個暫時離開的期間我們給他一定的那個津貼經濟制但是我們還是希望政治目的希望他回來職場那我前面也講過我們根據2016到2023我們的持續6年多的這個大數據最終分析發現其實那個申請這些新手爸媽他其實運營留停他大概有82%回歸職場"},{"start":454.918,"end":473.798,"text":"有18%多一點他是離開職場那這個不是我們的本意啦可是我們因為也知道一些先有幫他希望要那個禮滿六個月後多領一點所以我們就在平衡讓他多領一個月但是不要一下子增加太多我們現在從一個月多領來試試看先看看情況"},{"start":475.475,"end":503.752,"text":"好 那我想根據勞動部自己的一個調查113年雇用管理的工作場所就業平等概念有超過一成五的事業單位不同意員工申請育嬰留職停薪高於生理假產假留產假安胎假產檢假賠產假也就是說相較於生理假安胎假育嬰留職停薪就很難請對這些不就看得到拿不到嗎所以應該要直接提高層數吧比如零九成十個月而不是玩文字遊戲你覺得呢"},{"start":504.292,"end":528.365,"text":"各位說明這個比例其實就我們的理解我們的性別評定公務法16條就規定僱主是不得拒絕的如果拒絕的話勞工可以申訴那我們地方勞工局就可以依法來裁處當然我都知道這些都是法律的手段而且就我們了解以長時間來看這個僱主這個掉了1成5的比例如果長時間來看這個比例是比過去幾年要明顯要下降了"},{"start":529.52,"end":558.08,"text":"我們還是希望因為目前還是有遇到這些個案的問題加強宣導我當然都知道法律都訂得很完善可是問題是第一失誤我們失誤上的確有遇到這樣子的困難那我們要怎麼去幫助他們我想再請問就業保險法第十一條第一項第四款規定留職停薪津貼必須年滿這個一年以上子女滿三歲以前那就業保險法就十九之二第一項來說另外"},{"start":559.252,"end":582.037,"text":"只能夠領6個月平均月頭保薪資60%計算但是政府有另外以公務預算編列方式額外補助兩成的津貼所以等於有八成那現在基本工資是28,590元就以29,000來算就好一個月月薪29K的年輕人若申請育嬰留職停薪的津貼可以領多少 次長"},{"start":584.02,"end":606,"text":"我們的就業保險的平均投保薪金上個月最新數字是37500多所以是比最低工資28590要明顯要高我想我們用29K來計算的話那基本上60%是多少一個月才領17000那29K的80%是多少如果用平均投保薪金37500來算的六成的話是不止"},{"start":606.926,"end":632.743,"text":"當然你是用平均啦那也要確保每一個人都有平均在那個部分那我想自己的生活費不算房租不算家裡開銷不算單就照顧小孩子23220元怎麼樣政府的基金貼是不是補助太少請問這個部分救保基金現在有多少錢1780多億如果用公務預算編列的額外兩成如果就救保基金來增加這個支出會增加多少錢"},{"start":634.417,"end":658.872,"text":"我們問的是增加哪個部分是說剛剛說有八成嘛80%嘛那少了20%嘛那20%如果用救保基金來支出會增加多少錢你們有沒有去算過大概35億左右我想救保基金如果有能力的話為什麼不能從這邊保出那我想這個部分是不是能夠過去是不是有要將這個救保1%的投保費率調降"},{"start":660.523,"end":685.382,"text":"各位所以如果要調升費率這是大事啦因為這個是雇主負擔七成勞工負擔兩成政府補貼一成所以雇主團體勞工團體的意見我們都要很廣泛很慎重的去了解當然這個我都知道這不是一時之間可以處理的但是剛剛我說少子女化的一個衝擊這也是長期一直在探討的一個問題所以今天大家站在這邊召委排了這個案子我想今天大家都在就是希望能夠"},{"start":686.643,"end":698.454,"text":"形成一個少子女化的一個團隊大家一起去想辦法處理這件事情當然不只是所有的勞工的問題資方也有可能有他的一些困難我們大家都要就這個部分一起來做探討一起來努力 好嗎謝謝謝謝委員謝謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1397,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時34分）謝謝召委，我們有請衛福部次長。"],["主席：次長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長，113年工業及服務業的薪資統計，薪資中位數3萬7,274元，等於全臺超過一半的勞工月薪不到4萬元，我想請問各位長官，這樣我們要怎麼生得起、養得好？剛剛有委員提到臨時托育要增加，臺中目前只有6個，當然臺中責無旁貸，不能都說是中央的問題，但是中央能不能給予更多的資源或是督促？這個我們要拜託中央。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：第二、0到2歲的專班，我們也看到行政院院長說要增加200班，全臺灣嗎？以行政院來說，如果他說的是臺中市200班，那我還蠻欣慰的，但是全臺灣200班，對不起，入不敷出，根本不夠，不要騙大家，200班根本不夠。另外我想請問，這部分我們是不是能夠再加強對應，提升0到2歲專班的數量？這個也要有請次長多關注。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，幼幼班是屬於教育部。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個0到2歲的專班，包括教育部的努力，衛福部是0到2歲相關的一些補貼，當然我知道有一些權責在教育部，我統整在一起講。"],["呂次長建德：瞭解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請教你一個問題， 臺中市嬰幼兒福利聯合會最新在臺中發起罷工，你有掌握這個狀況嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我瞭解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛我要講的就是補助，這是當時他們的訴求，比照其他六都增加家長的補助，比照其他六都給予托育人員的久任獎金。我要講的是，這是臺中的責任，我沒有說這是衛福部的責任，但衛福部能不能更加督促臺中市來努力呢？你知道它有罷工嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我知道，我知道他有這個訴求，我也知道蔣叔融理事長他們跟委員長期以來都非常關心。我跟委員報告，其實當時我當社會局長的時候，我本來就是要提這個，林佳龍前市長也非常支持，後來我想這個部分一棒接一棒嘛！如果盧市長也願意來強化，這個我們非常樂見啊！另外我也必須要說一下，目前大院的財政收支劃分法已經通過了，現在地方財源除了有中央的部分之外，基本上也可以再繼續加碼。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你的論述我可以接受，你認為財源下放了，事權也應該由地方來承擔，我覺得這都是論述沒有關係……"],["呂次長建德：當然，事、權、責是三者合一的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們沒有對錯，我們探討，你覺得事權很重要，我也認同，既然錢下放了，地方要有責任，這個可以認同。那你要督促、你要再溝通、你要捍衛嘛！"],["呂次長建德：我簡單說明一下，前天我才剛主持社會安全網，新北那邊就提出一個加班費能不能提高，我說fine，當然沒問題，只要地方政府願意，中央會補你的基本薪資嘛！如果新北那邊願意再補，我們樂觀其成，但我們會有一個法源、有一個依據給地方政府。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你覺得育兒津貼要再加碼嗎？還是你覺得應該事權下放之後，由地方政府自己去統籌？"],["呂次長建德：這是少子女化的問題，我覺得這個應該是大家共同來努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一起來承擔，中央來努力，地方也來努力嘛！"],["呂次長建德：當然，我剛剛也說過，少子女化的問題是一個多元的問題，津貼只是其中一種，如果大家有共識，中央、地方大家一起來努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來我想問一下，衛福部現在的數據，臺灣早療的個案通報，2017年2萬3,535人，到現在2024年是3萬9,000人。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：早療聯合評估要排隊，進入到療育的服務還要再等，有沒有方式讓這個醫療機構能夠增加量能？"],["呂次長建德：我簡單分兩個部分，第一、目前我們的聯評中心從113年到114年已經加速增加，然後我們的時間也已經縮短，詳細的數據我請國健署跟委員報告。"],["林組長宇旋：報告委員，我們聯合評估中心的家數已經從113年的85家提升到114年的88家，其中門診的服務量能夠再進一步提升的重點中心，也從113年的10家調整到114年的17家，所以我們整個聯合評估的服務量是有增加的。另外有關時效的數據，我們也看到……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這些數據會後再提供給我。"],["林組長宇旋：好，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我相信每一年都有進步，但是我要講的是，需求一直在增加，我們要怎麼去因應未來的需求？這個部分還要再多加一點力道。","再來就是，召委今天這個題目真的非常廣，當然有勞動部，其實我覺得教育部也應該要在場，因為教育部也責無旁貸，大家一起來努力。"],["呂次長建德：有，教育部在這邊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：教育部有喔？"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛沒有叫到你上來，對！剛剛上一場正旭委員在的時候，您有在場上，不好意思。我要談的是，不管是0到2歲專班以及相關的補貼，我們綜合性的來談，應該都要一起來努力啦！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分要另外再請勞動部，請問勞動部，現在正在研議修正的就業保險法，就領滿6個月育嬰留職停薪的津貼雙薪，再增加1個月的薪資津貼，我真的看不懂這是什麼意思，想跟你請問一下，育嬰留停6個月，領滿6個月的育嬰留職停薪津貼，可以再繼續留停1個月，同時多領1個月的津貼嗎？這是A；B是育嬰留停6個月，可以領7個月的育嬰留職停薪津貼，這是B。請問到底是A、B哪一個？"],["李次長健鴻：我們現在的方向就是希望修改就業保險法，讓新手爸媽領滿育嬰留停津貼6個月，新手爸媽兩個人都可以來申請再多領1個月。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想勞動部的用意是鼓勵大家領滿，那為什麼不多給一點，更減輕大家的負擔？"],["李次長健鴻：我們先前有回應過，育嬰留職停薪津貼的政策目標，20年前立法的時候就是希望幫助這些新手爸媽不要因為要育嬰而離開職場，所以他是暫時留職停薪，在暫時離開的期間，我們給他一定的津貼經濟支持，但政策目的是希望他回來職場。我前面也講過，根據2016年到2023年，持續六年多的大數據追蹤分析，發現這些申請的新手爸媽，育嬰留停後大概有82%回歸職場，有百分之十八點多是離開職場，這不是我們的本意。可是我們也知道，一些新手爸媽希望領滿6個月後多領一點，所以我們就再平衡，讓他多領1個月，但是不要一下子增加太多，現在先從多領1個月試試看，先看看情況。"],["羅委員廷瑋：根據勞動部113年僱用管理及工作場所就業平等概況調查，有超過一成五的事業單位不同意員工申請育嬰留職停薪，高於生理假、產假、流產假、安胎假、產檢假、陪產假，也就是說，相較於生理假、安胎假，育嬰留職停薪很難請，這些不就看得到，拿不到嗎？所以應該要直接提高成數吧？比如領九成、10個月，而不是玩文字遊戲，你覺得呢？"],["李次長健鴻：這個比例就我們的理解……性別平等工作法第十六條就規定雇主是不得拒絕的，如果拒絕的話，勞工可以申訴，地方勞工局就可以依法來裁處。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，我都知道，這些都是法律的手段，但是在第一線的這些……"],["李次長健鴻：而且就我們了解，這個調查以長時間來看，雇主一成五的這個比例比過去幾年明顯下降了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為目前還是有遇到這些問題的個案……"],["李次長健鴻：瞭解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：要加強宣導，我當然知道法律都訂得很完善，問題是實務上的確有遇到這樣的困難，我們要怎麼去幫助他們？","我想再請問就業保險法第十一條第一項第四款規定，育嬰留職停薪津貼必須保險年資滿一年以上，子女滿三歲前；就業保險法第十九條之二第一項，另外只能夠領六個月平均月投保薪資百分之六十計算，但是政府有另外以公務預算編列的方式額外補助兩成的津貼，所以等於有八成。現在基本工資是2萬8,590元，以2萬9,000元來算就好，一個月月薪29K的年輕人，若申請育嬰留職停薪津貼，可以領多少？"],["李次長健鴻：就業保險的平均投保薪資上個月最新數字是三萬七千五百多元，所以是比最低工資2萬8,590明顯要高。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們用29K來計算的話，60%是多少？一個月才領1萬7,000，那29K的80%是多少？2萬3,000啊！"],["李次長健鴻：但是如果用平均投保薪資3萬7,500來算，六成的話是不只。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然你是用平均，那也要確保每一個人都有到平均，自己的生活費不算喔！房租不算、家裡開銷不算，單就照顧小孩子，2萬3,220元怎麼養？政府的津貼是不是補助太少？請問就保基金現在有多少錢？"],["李次長健鴻：一千七百八十多億元。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果用公務預算編列的額外兩成，以就保基金來增加這個支出，會增加多少錢？"],["李次長健鴻：委員問的是增加哪個部分？是說……"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛我說有80%嘛！那少了20%，如果用就保基金來支出會增加多少錢？你們有沒有去算過？"],["李次長健鴻：大概35億元左右。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想就保基金如果有能力的話，為什麼不能從這邊出？過去是不是有要將就保1%的投保費率調降？"],["李次長健鴻：如果要調升費率這是大事，因為這個是雇主負擔七成，勞工負擔兩成政府補貼一成，所以雇主團體、勞工團體的意見，我們都要很慎重的去瞭解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，這個我都知道，這不是一時之間可以處理的。"],["李次長健鴻：對，這是很大的事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是剛剛我談到少子女化的衝擊，這也是長期一直在探討的問題，今天大家在這邊，召委排了這個案子，我想今天大家都在，就是希望能夠形成一個少子女化的團隊，大家一起去想辦法處理這件事。當然不是全部都是勞工的問題，資方可能也有他的一些困難，我們大家都要就這個部分一起探討、一起呼應，好嗎？謝謝。"],["李次長健鴻：瞭解，好，謝謝委員。"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝次長。","接續我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900d4bbcbdf11b8391947542dab5946a2249b62a44c83059aafed2a50a6791172355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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然後會一個比較長的時間在不同地點表演部長 我跟您說我其實也很關心我去年有找來國貿署"},{"start":72.068,"end":91.381,"text":"以及要來承攬這個的中華冒險我曾經兩度請他們到辦公室來因為我很關心展出的內容有沒有邀請我們原住民的這些藝文團體又或者說展覽的內容有沒有有關我們台灣原住民族的文化"},{"start":92.262,"end":106.214,"text":"但是在預算會期的時候 我看到更憂心的是竟然被刪了5.9億的旅費 業務費等等等甚至是沒宣費用5900萬也被刪除"},{"start":109.957,"end":138.637,"text":"那我今天是來文化部這邊我就是特別想要來關心我們文化部我相信很多的部會可以一同的在這樣的一個世界博覽會舞台上來共同的努力展現我們台灣多元的文化所以我在這邊就是特別希望我們部長您要關心像例如有一個議題我在去年有接到一個陳情這個陳情人呢他其實是日本人"},{"start":139.577,"end":161.52,"text":"他說他到他們大阪這個國立的原住民族博物館過去長期以來都有展出我們台灣各個族群的物件但是他感到很驚訝因為有一個展覽叫做中國地域之文化的展覽"},{"start":162.501,"end":186.115,"text":"也就是中國的版圖的意思他看到這個展區有把我們原住民族寫成高山族把它納入中國的版圖來展覽甚至原來一模一樣台灣展的物件被拿去移植也來做他們中國的展示廳的展品"},{"start":186.815,"end":190.677,"text":"那這個部分他之所以驚訝是說他不太理解從台灣來的參與者呢好像沒有做什麼抗議導致他們的管方也沒有辦法理解這種一中五入台灣的嚴重性那我不曉得說部長您知不知道這個事情那這一次剛好我們的世界博覽會又要在大阪"},{"start":209.125,"end":216.985,"text":"那我相信很多來自全世界各地的遊客也都會來這個博物館參觀部長你有沒有有一些了解"},{"start":218.524,"end":240.823,"text":"這件事情我並不知道但是我知道中國本身在各個地方都把台灣試著納入它的一部分這個是它本身不斷地在做的事情但是站在我們的立場我非常努力地從去年巴黎文化奧運到現在我們在每一次的任何展出都要強調我們是來自台灣即使在"},{"start":241.784,"end":270.624,"text":"官方網站上不准出現台灣我們都非常努力的用各種方式出現那中國用這個方式其實他們到處在用這個方式包括我們申請這個世界遺址他們也很快把我們蓋過去像這個事情到處都發生那部長我之所以會提是因為4月13號就在大阪冷場那正在我們的大阪這個國立民族學的博物館呢"},{"start":271.585,"end":286.197,"text":"有這樣的一個站出然後陳情的人他說我們台灣沒有表示什麼立場那照理說全世界博物館都在解殖民啊那我們其實是不贊同"},{"start":286.937,"end":305.02,"text":"我們把這些殖民收購來的文物放在博覽館炫耀展示當然它有它教育的意義我們也可以這樣說但是現在世界的趨勢是要解殖民所以我在這個地方就是特別提出來我希望部長你能夠去了解這件事也請同仁能夠去讓我們知道未來它目前的狀況跟未來因應的一個方向那也作為文化部未來我們在這個全世界各地"},{"start":316.722,"end":331.719,"text":"這些博物館內的原住民的 特別是原住民的這些收藏品像我自己也協助在愛丁堡 英國愛丁堡那個遺骨返還那我想文化部未來有沒有這樣的一個政策性的規劃"},{"start":334.285,"end":359.907,"text":"剛剛委員講到解職這個概念台灣本身針對早期別人怎麼稱呼是高山族或者高沙族到現在改成原住民其實這些年來我們一直把原住民的文化裡面每一個習俗 舞蹈 歌唱都代表台灣出去一個非常重要的元素這點請委員放心我們都會把它列入是一個非常重要的表演"},{"start":360.708,"end":365.01,"text":"大阪的國立民族學博物館我也請部長因為這個活動我完全不知道的所以部長這其實是蠻駭人的一件事情讓人很驚訝那作為文化部我希望部長能夠請我們的同仁能夠去了解也能夠跟辦公室這邊做一個報告我們去了解另外一件事情在三個月前我要特別謝謝文化部文字局"},{"start":387.44,"end":408.234,"text":"泰雅族的很重要很重要的這個所謂的聖石他們已經努力了十多年終於成功的通過作為國家級的文資重要文化資產我必須要在這個地方來特別來跟部長文化部說聲謝謝但是真的很辛苦爭取十多年"},{"start":408.954,"end":430.321,"text":"那我自己是在2020年的2月進入到立法院我也有接受他們的陳情那當時呢我們有協助就是爭取前瞻再造歷史場域的經費當時有爭取到800多萬可以把這個地方去做一個所謂的文化設施的整理但很可惜就是地方政府沒有作為"},{"start":431.201,"end":451.593,"text":"所以最後這筆錢收回那我們要再次的協助地方去爭取也謝謝最後文化部文資局這邊也有提供兩百多萬讓他們可以去做步道等等那我在這邊要提這個問題的原因是說其實我們有一個原住民族重大歷史文化事件紀念空間的補助要點"},{"start":454.275,"end":472.851,"text":"那過去呢 園民會 它是提出了原住民重大的歷史文化事件有十大事件 他們也有專書那文化部這邊呢 是空間補助作業要點我想請教一下部長 就是到底做了幾個空間補助局長也可以局長比較具體跟您報告一下那個項目"},{"start":481.995,"end":506.417,"text":"這個原住民族的重大歷史事件它的定義都是由原民會它會定義哪些重大歷史事件那我們在這個補助要點裡面它第一個就是這些重大歷史事件它必須有做了幾件了現在目前我們有三個案子已經有所謂重大歷史事件所以做了三個案子物色事件物色事件 那牡丹色事件好 那我其實之前在原民會文化部我都有質詢過"},{"start":508.198,"end":527.11,"text":"我們不局限在十大像我之前有提過南番事件也很重要那謝謝也有補助調研的經費但是調研的下一步是什麼 結案啦原民會那邊有補助調研經費 結案啦那能不能夠申請空間補助"},{"start":529.636,"end":553.172,"text":"可以啊 只要他有文化資產身份就可以那像那個李洞山事件呢李洞山現在正在做文化資產調查研究是 調研經費也有給了嘛我們都希望做完調研的下一步我們應該要到所謂的空間的補助那我在這個地方特別做這樣的一個提醒因為說實在案件非常的少 速度比較緩慢一點"},{"start":554.733,"end":573.839,"text":"那在這裡呢我很重視空間為什麼因為原住民是在跟我們的時間賽跑所以我一直很關心像有很多的東西像我舉個例子石板屋其實石板屋是很美很重要的一個文化資產但是呢老師要取得文資身份很累"},{"start":574.739,"end":586.474,"text":"然後呢 如果壞掉了修復 他又沒有所謂的建造死照也很難去申請所謂的一個修復那一般老百姓 我也沒錢啊 他也不願意修復 然後就沒有了"},{"start":592.216,"end":621.696,"text":"我想這個不是我們政府的希望所以我常常說這一些不具文字身份的那我們要怎麼樣去改善我們在跟時間賽跑像很多的祖靈屋非常的重要但是也苦於找不到對應的科目可以來申請經費像是我們的這個所謂的國家文化記憶庫以這個彭水光或者是琉璃珠之母江雅蕾這兩位這個是他們的私人博物館"},{"start":622.877,"end":649.679,"text":"他們自己在家裡也自己做博物館一邊做他們的工作室一邊做這樣的一個地方私人的博物館但是很辛苦像我常常講他已經要被人家收回了他也不知道他未來的這些展覽要放在哪裡那像彭水光他已經失智了那他的家人也不知道這一些這麼漂亮的木雕到底要何去何從甚至有可能要把他給一一的賣掉"},{"start":651.34,"end":668.599,"text":"我想這也不是我們國家要的所以像這種只記憶但是我們卻沒有辦法保存非常的可惜那甚至是像我們很多原住民的巫師我們所謂的靈媒布林奧那他們呢傳承也很困難"},{"start":669.6,"end":674.001,"text":"一一的凋零他們也很希望我們能夠使用政府的什麼計畫嗎是師徒制可以給我們嗎他們其實都很辛苦我講這些只是因為我看到我們的夜報上我們有一個新的計畫叫做百大文化基地那我認真看了一下好像喔像有提到地方文化館提到文化展演據點社區營造的地方據點文化路徑等等等"},{"start":698.266,"end":702.71,"text":"我不知道他們有沒有資格那請教一下 正美醫案補助的很多嗎這個計畫會維持幾年呢"},{"start":707.21,"end":735.323,"text":"好 我跟委員報告一下這個計畫是一個新想出來的一個計畫是它每兩年一次每兩年舉行一次讓各地方的場館博物館 美術館或者您剛才講到原住民的一些社造他們都來申請申請之後我們請學者專家選出100個它的目的就是去凸顯它不同的文化層面所以是每兩年選出100個對 然後預算並不高預算多少"},{"start":735.683,"end":754.977,"text":"每一個被選出來的我們給他五十萬分兩年可是我想要做的另外一件事就是試著去用這樣的方式去找到別的部會一起來做謝謝部長 謝謝您我喜歡很感動你這樣的一個表態對 我要講的意思就是這樣很多很多摯愛難行的"},{"start":756.598,"end":760.841,"text":"我覺得我們如果覺得他真的重要我們就付諸行動我們來想一個計畫的型態我們來抱怨我們核定之後我們來幫助他們所以在這邊我聽到部長這樣的回應我非常的高興請部長還有我們的局長你們都很努力我們繼續一起努力一起加油謝謝主席是我們會努力好那也希望就是一個月內能夠把這樣的一個態度也能夠用一個書面回應給我好謝謝"},{"start":787.503,"end":789.11,"text":"好 謝謝吳麗華委員 部長請回接下來我們請吳思雅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":803,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時31分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員您好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovcahe委員：部長好。部長，今年有一個國際矚目的大活動，這個活動4月13日即將登場，就是日本大阪所舉辦的世界博覽會，我也特別的在新聞中看到，上個月外交部林部長跟您也有一個會議，就是你們特別提到這個世界博覽會即將到來，所以你們要聯手延伸去年巴黎文化奧運的成功經驗，文化部這邊這一次會做哪些事情？"],["李部長遠：這個活動從4月開始已經由經濟部主導，我們大約在8月……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，國貿署。"],["李部長遠：我們是8月份……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們8月要進場。"],["李部長遠：對，然後會有一個比較長的時間，在不同的地點表演。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，部長，我跟你說，我其實也很關心，去年我有找國貿署，以及承攬這個的中華貿協，我曾經2度請他們來辦公室，因為我很關心展出的內容有沒有邀請我們原住民的藝文團隊？又或者說，展覽的內容有沒有有關臺灣原住民族的文化？但是在預算會期的時候，我看到憂心的事情，因為你們竟然被刪了5億9,000萬元的旅費、業務費等等等，甚至連媒宣費用5,900萬元也被刪除。我今天來文化部這邊，我就是特別的想要來關心，我相信很多的部會可以一同的在這樣一個世界級的博覽會舞臺上共同努力，展現我們臺灣的多元文化，所以我在這邊特別的希望部長您要關心，例如有一個議題，我在去年有接到一個陳情，其實這個陳情人是日本人，他說他到他們大阪的國立民族學博物館，這個博物館過去長期以來都有展出我們臺灣各個族群的物件，但是他感到很驚訝，因為有一個叫做「中國地域之文化」的展覽，也就是中國版圖的意思。他看到這個展區把我們原住民族寫成高山族，還把它納入中國的版圖來展覽。甚至，原來、一模一樣臺灣展出的物件也被拿去移植做為中國展示廳的展品。這個部分他之所以驚訝是因為，他不太理解，從臺灣來的參與者好像都沒有做什麼抗議，導致他們的館方也沒有辦法理解這種用一中來侮辱臺灣的嚴重性，我不曉得部長你知不知道這件事情？剛好這次世界博覽會又是在大阪，我相信很多來自全世界各地的遊客也都會來這個博物館參觀，部長，你有沒有一些瞭解？"],["李部長遠：這件事情我並不知道，但是我知道中國本身在各個地方都試著把臺灣納入他的一部分，這是他本身就不斷在做的事情，但是站在我們的立場，我們非常的努力，從去年巴黎文化奧運到現在，我們在每一次的任何展出，我們都會強調我們是來自臺灣，即使官方網站不准出現臺灣，我們都還是非常努力的用各種方式來出現。中國到處都是用這個方式，包括我們申請世界遺址，他們也很快的就把我們蓋過去，像這種事情到處都有在發生。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，部長，我之所以會提是因為世界博覽會4月13日就要在大阪登場，而大阪國立民族學博物館又有這樣的展出，然後陳情人說我們臺灣沒有表示什麼立場，照理說，全世界所有的博物館都在解殖民，其實我們並不贊同把這些蒐購來的殖民文物放在博覽館裡炫耀和展示。當然，我們也可以說它有它的教育意義，但是現在世界的趨勢是要解殖民，所以我在這個地方要特別的提出來，我希望部長能夠去瞭解這件事情，也要請同仁讓我們知道它目前的狀況和未來的因應方向，也做為文化部未來在全世界各地的博物館，特別是原住民的這些收藏品，像我自己也有協助英國愛丁堡返還遺骨。我想，文化部未來有沒有這樣的政策性規劃？"],["李部長遠：剛剛委員講到「解殖」這個概念，臺灣針對早期別人是怎麼稱呼「高山族」或是「高砂族」，到現在改成「原住民」，其實這些年來，我們一直把原住民文化裡面的每一個習俗、舞蹈、歌曲都拿來代表臺灣，這是我們出去時非常重要的一個元素，這點請委員放心，我們會把它列入非常重要的表演。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：大阪國立民族學博物館也請部長……"],["李部長遠：因為這個活動我完全不知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以啊！部長，其實這是滿駭人的一件事情，讓人很驚訝，做為文化部，我希望部長要請同仁去瞭解，也能夠跟我的辦公室做一個報告。"],["李部長遠：是，好，我們去瞭解。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK！另外一件事情，我要特別的謝謝文化部文資局，3個月前，泰雅族很重要的聖石「Sbayan」終於成功通過做為國家級的重要文化資產，他們已經努力了十多年，我必須要在這個地方特別跟部長和文化部說聲：「謝謝！」，但是真的很辛苦，爭取了十多年。我自己是2020年2月進入立法院的，我也有接受他們的陳情，當時我們有協助爭取前瞻再造歷史場域的經費，當時有爭取到八百多萬元來把這個地方做為文化設施的整理，但是很可惜，地方政府沒有作為，所以最後這筆錢被收回，我們又再次的協助地方爭取，也謝謝最後文化部文資局提供二百多萬元，讓他們可以去做步道等等。我在這邊提出這個問題的原因是，其實我們有一個原住民族重大歷史文化事件紀念空間補助要點，過去原民會有提出十大原住民族重大歷史事件，他們也有專書。文化部這邊是空間補助作業要點，我想請教一下部長，就是你們到底做了幾個空間補助？局長回答也可以。"],["李部長遠：請局長具體跟你報告一下那個項目。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。來。"],["陳局長濟民：原住民族重大歷史事件是由原民會來定義哪些是重大歷史事件，在我們這個補助要點裡面，第一個，這些重大歷史事件必須……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：做了幾件？"],["陳局長濟民：目前重大歷史事件有3個案子，包括……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以做了3個案子？"],["陳局長濟民：有霧社事件、南庄事件和牡丹社事件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，其實之前我在原民會和文化部都有質詢過，我們不應該拘限在十大，像我之前提過的南蕃事件也很重要，謝謝你們有補助調研的經費，但是調研的下一步是什麼？結案啦！原民會那邊有補助調研的經費，也結案了，那能不能夠申請空間補助？"],["陳局長濟民：可以啊！只要它有文化資產身份就可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那像李崠山事件呢？"],["陳局長濟民：李崠山事件現在正在做文化資產的調查研究。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，調研經費也有給了嘛！"],["陳局長濟民：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們希望做完調研的下一步應該是要到所謂的「空間補助」，我在這個地方要特別的做這樣一個提醒，因為說實在的，這樣的案件非常少，速度也比較緩慢一點。我在這裡很重視空間，為什麼？因為原住民是在跟時間賽跑，所以我一直很關心，像有很多的東西，我舉個例子：石板屋，其實石板屋是很美、很重要的文物資產，但是老是要取得文資身份很累，如果壞掉了、修復了，它又沒有所謂的「建照、使照」，也很難申請所謂的「修復」，一般老百姓又沒錢，他也不願意修復，然後就沒有了。我想這不是政府希望的，所以我常常說，這些不具文資身份的我們要怎麼樣去改善？我們在跟時間賽跑，像很多的祖靈屋，那些都非常的重要，但是也苦於找不到對應的科目可以來申請經費。像是所謂的「國家文化記憶庫」，以彭水光或者是琉璃珠之母──江雅蕾這2位，這個是他們的私人博物館，他們在自己的家裡做博物館，一邊做他們的工作室，一邊做地方的私人博物館，但是很辛苦，像我常常講，已經要被人家收回了，他也不知道未來這些展覽品要放在哪裡。像彭水光已經失智了，他的家人也不知道這些漂亮的木雕要何去何從？甚至有可能要把它一一的賣掉，我想這也不是我們國家要的，所以像這種只記憶，但是我們卻沒有辦法保存的，非常可惜。甚至像我們原住民有很多的巫師，也就是所謂的「靈媒」，他們要傳承也很困難，一一的凋零，他們也很希望能夠使用政府的什麼計畫？是師徒制可以給我們嗎？其實他們都很辛苦。","我講這些只是因為我看到我們的業報上有一個叫做「百大文化基地」的新計畫，我認真的看了一下，它好像有提到地方文化館、文化展演據點、社區營造的地方據點、文化路徑等等等，我不知道他們有沒有資格？請教一下，這每一案都補助很多嗎？這個計畫會維持幾年呢？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員報告一下，這個計畫是新想出來的計畫，每2年舉行一次，要讓各地方的場館、博物館、美術館，或是你剛才講到的原住民的一些舍造，他們都有來申請，申請之後，我們會請專家學者選出100個。它的目的就是要去突顯它不同的文化層面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以是每2年選出100案。"],["李部長遠：對，但預算並不高。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：預算多少？"],["李部長遠：每一個被選出來的案子我們會給它50萬元，分2年。可是我想要做的另外一件事就是，試著用這樣的方式去找別的部會一起來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，謝謝您！我喜歡、也很感動你有這樣的表態，對，我要講的意思就是這樣，很多、很多窒礙難行的，如果我們真的覺得它很重要，那我們就要付諸行動來想一個計畫型態報院，等核定之後，我們來幫助他們，所以我在這邊聽到部長這樣的回應，我非常高興，請部長和局長，因為你們都很努力，我們繼續一起努力、一起加油，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：是，我們會努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：也希望在1個月內能夠把這樣的態度用一個書面回應給我。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。部長請回。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159733","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900a819fbd906cd70e81a80f058510e45ac9b62a44c83059aaf1345feb9e96ac4965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:33:56 - 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我記得上禮拜我們在這邊問你這個骯髒失誤國當時新聞有出來啦 可是部長沒有掌握到那個訊息但是你有提到 我們財政部或相關部會都有做好準備都已經盤點了相關的資料"},{"start":26.155,"end":48.429,"text":"那我先來問大家一個態度的問題假設台灣被列為骯髒15國那骯髒畢竟不是一個好聽的詞啦那美國他把我們列為骯髒15國主要是說他覺得這些15國對美國有不公平的貿易對待所以才會用骯髒這個字那我非常肯定楊金榮總裁他雖然今天沒有來"},{"start":49.289,"end":68.626,"text":"他直接說 他說從對等關稅的角度來看台美是互補關係不是不公平貿易代表說如果美國把我們列為當中15國我們應該要表達我們的一些不同意的態度而不是說他列了我們就完全覺得他講的是對的請問一下部長你的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":70.492,"end":88.043,"text":"你覺得我們是不是骯髒十五國骯髒嗎?這個是公平貿易嗎?這是不公平貿易嗎?第一個骯髒十五國它到底列的哪些國家並沒有名列那是路透社的一個報導它把一些跟美國貿易比較大的部分"},{"start":88.676,"end":98.9,"text":"把它列進去這是第一個所以人家骯髒十五國演並還沒有名列出名我知道第一個我們也不認為我們會是骯髒啊所以你正不贊成楊金龍總裁講的貿易是一個互補的關係互補嘛不是不公平貿易啦所以我們對於假設被列為這個骯髒十五國我覺得政府應該有個態度啦"},{"start":114.105,"end":138.784,"text":"那我是看到其他國家都有一些反應譬如說歐盟對於川普可能會加關稅這件事情歐盟就表達遺憾啦他說歐盟會進行整體的評估也會提出因應的策略那加拿大加拿大現在要拿特斯拉開刀啦就只要美國如果有加關稅的話就會用不補助特斯拉來當作抵制"},{"start":139.344,"end":156.186,"text":"那為什麼呢 因為當然是可能就衝著馬斯克來馬斯克現在是川普的重要的幫手啦那越南的部分呢 他是會降低部分的產業的關稅那我想問一下部長 我們現在的因應之道是什麼"},{"start":158.736,"end":175.829,"text":"對於川普政府這邊的相關的一些關稅策略其實我們都有密切的關注那也有跨部會的會議在行政院有一個經貿工作小組做密切的討論所以我們會有相關的策略你沒有回答問題部長沒有回答問題"},{"start":179.17,"end":206.135,"text":"什麼事?你沒有人要回答我?我只是質詢你你這是什麼態度啊?問題是什麼態度?我剛剛講了像比如說像加拿大他們都很具體嘛他說要拿特斯拉開刀啊越南他們說他們要降部分關稅嘛那我現在問你是說我們這邊的因應策略是什麼?那你沒有回答問題啊你講的只是說我們有關注啊我們有開會啊那我現在是問說那你們的策略是什麼?然後我說你沒有回答問題你說是"},{"start":207.916,"end":228.394,"text":"部長我覺得官員來這邊不要用這種傲慢的態度好不好今天如果說你能夠讓大家都很安心的話不會每個委員在問這個問題嘛那就是你講的東西讓人家覺得說你是沒有準備好所以大家才會來問那結果你的態度就是我沒有評估啊然後我問你說你沒有講你還說是"},{"start":230.135,"end":258.28,"text":"我還要往下講啊 委員你剛剛就沒有要講 就是是是 你是什麼 為什麼要那麼傲慢我覺得跟委員報告能不能像是看那個王世堅委員在質詢你的時候說你恃寵而驕跟委員報告說你這樣看你這個態度就是這個樣子啊對委員我們都是絕對的尊重那什麼叫做你沒有回答問題 是那個態度就是我就是沒有要回答 怎麼樣我想您是誤會了我沒有誤會 剛剛的態度通過直播大家都看得很清楚"},{"start":260.013,"end":261.218,"text":"請問一下你們現在的因應策略是什麼"},{"start":262.076,"end":279.802,"text":"我們的因應策略其實部會裡面的報告也都有提到對於產業的一個可能性的一些因應都有做那當然後續還是沒有回答我們會根據後面的一些更確定的一些方向比如說對哪一些產品以及對哪一些國家課徵怎麼樣的一個關稅在這個裡面我們的經貿辦公室這邊也會跟國際相關的一些協商現在要提高那個汽車關稅你們的評估是沒有影響的對不對"},{"start":292.226,"end":306.242,"text":"也跟委員報告我們的汽車出口到美國的是大概不到1億的美元那主要是1000CC以下的越野沙灘車所以是覺得影響不大另外就是他提到提高25%的關稅裡面並不包含這個越野沙灘車在裡面"},{"start":312.81,"end":338.959,"text":"好那請問一下你有去調查說有沒有可能台灣有一些汽車零件的供應商比如說車燈啊排氣管啊他可能是賣到其他國家然後這些國家的車子呢再賣到美國去那因為美國可能提高關稅讓我們的汽車零組件的供應商受到影響這個部分有去評估嗎這個部分對於產業的一個衝擊以及跟相關產業的一個互相交流那經濟部都有持續在進行好謝謝"},{"start":340.104,"end":345.259,"text":"好 謝謝葉文哲委員的資訊我們剛剛宣布了 休息五分鐘 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響也不大好那我請一下黃副局長"},{"start":166.431,"end":176.796,"text":"你們統計過所有1850家上市上櫃公司會因為關稅調整影響的有多少影響的範圍是多大"},{"start":177.964,"end":195.535,"text":"跟委員報告我們之前有透過證交所跟歸買中心去對整個市場1800多家去做問卷調查那目前回來的話自己評估認為說影響會比較重大的大概會有22家左右那22家"},{"start":197.156,"end":219.088,"text":"這個具體的名單我想我們都不便去提供但是現在只知道說這些的話就是剛剛提到的有一些電子產業或是一些汽車難怪我們看到台股現在都萎靡不振因為大家都看到未來的前途坎坷大家害怕那因為這樣的關稅的調整會不會有產業外移的問題我聽到很多的企業企業主說不會動的"},{"start":226.28,"end":249.074,"text":"所以就轉進泰國啊跑到越南嗎那接著請經濟部好了經濟部那剛剛他們都講了嘛江次長你覺得影響的層面有多大這些人最好的建議是去哪裡去泰國好呢還是去越南好"},{"start":250.271,"end":278.44,"text":"報告委員因為這個4月2號的報告還沒有出來所以確切會對哪些特定的產業哪些特定的國家科徵什麼樣的關稅現在還不清楚但是我們之前4月2號是什麼明年是不是不是4月2號他會公佈但是我們已經就各種情況4月2號是指今天的哪一天今年4月2號今天幾號今天是3月27號所以還有幾天下禮拜馬上就到了啊"},{"start":281.633,"end":301.52,"text":"這個時間你應該要做砂盤推演嘛最嚴重他要課多少對各行業你們有沒有統計過比如說汽車周邊的零組件你們的預測你們砂盤推演最高他要課多少關稅提高多少"},{"start":303.842,"end":327.54,"text":"汽車化因為很多都是電子產品其實它是如果是歸類於電子產品資訊業的話它是沒有關稅但是我們一般的汽車的話大概是百分之八汽車零組件是百分之八到百分之十五的關稅這是台灣的相較於美國來得高對 你有沒有算過到十五的話這些廠商的承受能力在哪裡"},{"start":328.817,"end":353.374,"text":"個別的廠商現在都有做我們也交換過意見有些廠商呢其實已經有到國外去佈局那甚至有這個Tesla的供應鏈廠商已經在美國設廠也有一些廠商呢先前也有到墨西哥去設廠好那你剛剛說到國外佈局大概是首選是哪幾國看個別廠商都不一定那有去因為先前有這個"},{"start":355.509,"end":382.231,"text":"USMCA的優惠所以我們有很多的廠商電子業相關廠商是在墨西哥在墨西哥佈局的那昨天川普政府有公布232對於相關的這個汽車等等的產品要課徵25%的關稅但是墨西哥跟加拿大是豁免的那請問一下次長這個相關影響的產業別會有多少大概多少家公司"},{"start":384.212,"end":402.809,"text":"因為昨天公布是只針對汽車業但是呢4月2號的報告出來之後我們還必須要去了解川普政府他會選哪些特定的產業或者是哪些特定的國家你們今天有盤點過嘛假設他強度弄到最強情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":404.713,"end":426.028,"text":"強度最強的話那應該就是全世界最相關的國家都會被科證所以我們都也是會比照啊是不是而且我們也會去看其他對手國我們的競爭相關產品競爭那你要跟他講啊你這邊跟我們科其他國家一樣的關稅你跟他可不可以宣布台積電就不要去啦"},{"start":428.678,"end":447.742,"text":"你做生意你要懂得談判嘛你台積電拿所謂一千億美元公佈兩千億美元那就六兆多啊你不能說這個也要那個也要通通他都要買東西拿去那我們這樣怎麼談判呢來 談判的代表是誰那談判的代表看起來都是漂漂亮亮的"},{"start":458.84,"end":485.941,"text":"稱讚你的話大概就是美若天仙大概就是柔若是花你們談判你起碼找個像老柯一樣來談吧對不對談一談談不好說不定還可以把他的秘密武器拿出來敲一敲其實是蠻震驚的啊你們要有這樣的一個魄力啊好 談判代表是嚴富總你準備好了嗎"},{"start":489.938,"end":507.871,"text":"我們包括經貿辦在內的所有的行政團隊都準備好了真的因為我們一直密集的召開會議都有做各種的你沒有談到一條啊你跟他講說台積電都過去了我們能給的都給的啊還有我跟你講一個來央行"},{"start":511.124,"end":537.636,"text":"央行 剛剛有人提到說去 楊總裁去是好奇啊事實上 你知道長期以來啊美國每次在困難的時候賣不出去的東西房地美 房地美 叫誰來買 央行有沒有買你回答 點頭是什麼意思但是 我們持有的比例現在是降低的有沒有買 央行有沒有買現在有吧"},{"start":538.632,"end":564.566,"text":"每次美國有難的時候台灣就站出來第一個都力挺啊我們進一步的資料就是央行主要買的是美國政府的債券買了多少目前比例好像是92%左右總金額是多少美金多少"},{"start":566.133,"end":594.694,"text":"我們現在的外匯存底是我出鍋講一下但比較正確的我回去查一下因為那水準在變化外匯存底如果目前來講大概是五千七百多億我們跟他買了五千多億的那個是外匯存底乘上比例如果是百分之九十大概大概是四千多億好所有那個談判代表"},{"start":595.865,"end":614.825,"text":"我們仔細資料到時候再提供給你麻煩那個嚴副總所以你談判的時候你要有底氣啊你要有籌碼啊美國除了要拿台積電他還要拿什麼"},{"start":616.679,"end":643.647,"text":"我想美國的政策很明白他就是要強化他的經濟安全國家安全所以台積電只是他確保供應鏈安全的一環哪一家公司是他的安全的一環除了台積電還有哪一家應該是說他覺得的關鍵產業都是他的經濟安全的一環所以晶片是一種那其他的礦場稀土也都是他所關鍵的所以你們在談判的時候要整理一下"},{"start":645.27,"end":659.874,"text":"比如說你要請教一下央行總裁啊你如果給我課關稅你要向加拿大總理的那個氣魄談判不要輸嘛你見面看到川普你就輸一半那怎麼談下去咧強硬一點好不好"},{"start":664.383,"end":687.676,"text":"你請教央行如果他要用高關稅我們已經對他們很好了要買武器就買武器要叫什麼就做什麼我們全力配合你還要一致性的跟其他國家來對我們課高關稅這是不公平的你就帶一句那那個外匯存體買美國國債買多少你再講一次央行央行多少"},{"start":692.401,"end":717.637,"text":"買了多少億的美國公債 來你說我們剛才講目前持有的美國公債部會是外匯存底的九成九成是多少那有四千多億的美元啊對 四千多億好 就是這句話 那個台灣代表你說你可以弄高關稅我四千多億的美國的公債我全部贖回"},{"start":723.135,"end":734.33,"text":"本席的用心理解請你們多多站在所有產業的未來的發展的辛苦方面多多考量另外那個什麼 健康食品的部分現在人口老化"},{"start":739.324,"end":745.429,"text":"吃的健康食品都是老人啊結果負擔的成本是那麼高你們趕緊檢討一下吧"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1010,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時21分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["羅委員明才：請中央銀行朱副總裁。"],["主席：請中央銀行朱副總裁。"],["羅委員明才：請金管會……"],["主席：請金管會陳副主委。"],["羅委員明才：請證期局黃副局長、櫃買中心陳麗卿總經理。"],["主席：請陳總經理。"],["羅委員明才：請國發會高副主任委員。"],["主席：請國發會高副主任委員。"],["羅委員明才：以及經濟部江次長。"],["主席：請經濟部江次長。"],["羅委員明才：請農業部杜次長。"],["主席：請農業部杜次長。"],["羅委員明才：最重要的是談判辦公室啊！請顏慧欣副總代表嗎？"],["主席：請顏副總代表。"],["羅委員明才：這個議題很嚴肅喔！即將面對的是一個很大的挑戰，對臺灣的未來可能會影響五年、十年，所以我想請教一下。莊部長，自從美國開啟關稅大戰以後，可以說「稅稅不安」，大家都很緊張啊！那麼部長，你準備好了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，是的，我們每一個部會都盯緊了相關訊息，而且會在行政院召開相關的工作小組會議。"],["羅委員明才：既然你已經準備好了，那我請問你，川普到底在想什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：川普要讓美國再次地偉大。"],["羅委員明才：所以他要美國再次偉大。","我們臺灣每一年賺美國多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：從美國這邊的話，我們的順差是七百多億美金。"],["羅委員明才：這個金額大不大？"],["莊部長翠雲：在美國的貿易夥伴國裡面，我們大概是排第六名。"],["羅委員明才：第六喔？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["羅委員明才：事實上，照你講的這個金額，影響周邊就很大，比如說央行周邊的匯率問題啊！還有證期局相關領域。我要請教一下……是黃副局長嘛！好，那我請問一下最直接的問題，請問負責上櫃的是誰？陳總經理，剛剛提到，如果關稅都調高的話，汽車、汽車零組件範疇中，大概有什麼行業會受到直接的影響？"],["陳總經理麗卿：我們櫃買中心之前詢問了一些上櫃公司，大概是對電子零組件業的部分公司會有稍許影響，但是都還在可控範圍之內。"],["羅委員明才：電子？還有呢？"],["陳總經理麗卿：電子零組件。"],["羅委員明才：汽車周邊不會嗎？"],["陳總經理麗卿：我們在這部分的公司很少，然後是對他們的影響也不大。"],["羅委員明才：好。","那我請教一下黃副局長……"],["黃副局長厚銘：是，委員好。"],["羅委員明才：你有沒有統計過，所有1,850家上市上櫃公司中，會因為關稅調整受影響的有多少、影響的範圍是多大？"],["黃副局長厚銘：跟委員報告，我們之前透過證交所跟櫃買中心對整個市場一千八百多家企業做問卷調查，根據目前回來的問卷，自己評估認為影響會比較重大的大概有22家左右。"],["羅委員明才：哪22家？"],["黃副局長厚銘：對於具體名單，我想我們不便提供，但是現在知道這些就是剛剛提到的電子產業或汽車零組件業。"],["羅委員明才：難怪我們看到臺股現在都萎靡不振啊！因為大家都看到未來前途坎坷啊！大家害怕啊！那麼會不會因為這樣的關稅調整而有產業外移的問題？我聽到很多企業主都說撐不住，所以就轉進泰國啊、跑到越南啊！","接著請經濟部好了。"],["江次長文若：是，委員。"],["羅委員明才：剛剛他們都講了嘛！江次長，你覺得影響的層面有多大？對於這些人最好的建議是去哪裡？去泰國好呢？還是去越南好？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，因為4月2號的報告還沒有出來，所以確切會對哪些特定產業、哪些特定國家課徵什麼樣的關稅現在還不清楚。但是我們之前已經有……"],["羅委員明才：4月2號是什麼？明年是不是？"],["江次長文若：不是，4月2號會公布。但是我們已經就各種情境……"],["羅委員明才：4月2號是指相對於今天的哪一天？"],["江次長文若：今年4月2號。"],["羅委員明才：今天幾號？"],["江次長文若：今天是3月27號。"],["羅委員明才：所以還有幾天？"],["江次長文若：下禮拜。"],["羅委員明才：馬上就到了啊！欸！這個時間你應該做沙盤推演嘛！"],["江次長文若：有。"],["羅委員明才：最嚴重會課多少？針對各行業，你們有沒有統計過？"],["江次長文若：因為是採對等……"],["羅委員明才：譬如說，對於汽車周邊零組件，你們的預測……你們有沙盤推演嘛！他最高要課多少關稅？提高多少？"],["江次長文若：汽車的話，因為有很多是電子產品，如果歸類於電子產品、資訊業的話是沒有關稅。但一般汽車的話，大概是8%，汽車零組件是8%到15%的關稅，臺灣是相較於美國來得高。"],["羅委員明才：對，那你有沒有算過，到15%的話，這些廠商的承受能力在哪裡？"],["江次長文若：個別廠商現在都有做估計，我們也交換過意見。有些廠商其實已經到國外布局，甚至有Tesla供應鏈廠商已經在美國設廠，也有一些廠商先前到墨西哥設廠。"],["羅委員明才：好，那你剛剛說到國外布局，首選大概是哪幾國？"],["江次長文若：看個別廠商，都不一定。先前因為有USMCA的優惠，所以我們有很多電子業相關廠商是在墨西哥布局的。而且昨天川普政府公布依照232條款對汽車等相關產品課徵25%關稅，但是墨西哥跟加拿大是豁免的。"],["羅委員明才：那請問一下次長，受到相關影響的產業別會有多少？大概多少家公司？"],["江次長文若：昨天的公布是只針對汽車業，4月2號的報告出來之後，我們還必須了解川普政府選哪些特定產業或者是哪些特定國家。"],["羅委員明才：你們已經盤點過了嘛！假設強度弄到最強，情況是怎麼樣？"],["江次長文若：強度最強的話，那應該就是全世界相關國家都會被課徵。"],["羅委員明才：所以我們也都會比照，是不是？"],["江次長文若：我們也會去看其他對手國，也就是相關產品的競爭對手國。"],["羅委員明才：那你要跟美國講啊！要是他在這邊對我們課與其他國家一樣的關稅，你可不可以宣布台積電就不要去了啊？"],["江次長文若：這個要更……"],["羅委員明才：做生意要懂得談判嘛！台積電拿1,000億美元或如公布的2,000億美元，那就是臺幣六兆多啊！他不能這個也要、那個也要，要是統統拿去、包贏，這樣我們怎麼談判呢？","談判代表是誰？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：委員好，我是經貿辦。"],["羅委員明才：談判代表看起來都漂漂亮亮的，要稱讚你的話，大概就是美若天仙、柔弱似花。但你們要談判，起碼要找個像老柯一樣的來談吧！對不對？談一談以後，要是談不好，說不定還可以把秘密武器拿出來敲一敲，欸！其實是滿令人震驚的啊！你們要有這樣的魄力啊！談判代表是……"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：顏慧欣。"],["羅委員明才：顏副總，你準備好了嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：包括經貿辦在內，我們所有行政團隊都準備好了。"],["羅委員明才：真的？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為我們一直密集召開會議，都有做各種沙盤推演。"],["羅委員明才：你們要談到一條啊！你要跟他們講，台積電都過去了、我們能給的都給啦！","還有，我跟你講一個，請央行。"],["朱副總裁美麗：是，委員好。"],["羅委員明才：剛剛有人提到楊總裁去是好棋啊！事實上，你可知道長期以來，美國每次在困難的時候，賣不出去的東西，例如房地美、房利美，叫誰來買？央行有沒有買？你回答啊！點頭是什麼意思？"],["朱副總裁美麗：是有，但是我們持有的比例現在是降低的。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有買？央行有沒有買？"],["朱副總裁美麗：現在有。"],["羅委員明才：每次美國有難的時候，臺灣都第一個站出來力挺啊！"],["朱副總裁美麗：有進一步的資料，就是央行買的主要是美國政府的債券。"],["羅委員明才：買了多少？"],["朱副總裁美麗：目前的比例好像是92%左右。"],["羅委員明才：不，總金額是多少？以美金計。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們現在的外匯存底是……這樣好了，我粗估講一下，但比較正確的要回去查一下，因為那屬於……"],["羅委員明才：沒關係啦！你第一次來，我也就隨便啦！大概就好了。"],["朱副總裁美麗：外匯存底如果就目前來講，大概是五千七百多億美元，如果……"],["羅委員明才：我們跟他們買了五千多億美金……"],["朱副總裁美麗：不是，那是外匯存底，如果乘上比例90%，大概是四千多億美元。"],["羅委員明才：好。談判代表，麻煩……"],["朱副總裁美麗：仔細的資料我們到時候再提供給您。"],["羅委員明才：麻煩顏副總，所以你談判的時候要有底氣啊！你要有籌碼啊！美國除了要拿台積電，還要拿什麼？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想，美國的政策很明白，就是要強化它的經濟安全、國家安全，所以台積電只是它確保供應鏈安全的一環，但是……"],["羅委員明才：還有哪一家公司是它安全的一環？除了台積電，還有哪一家？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：應該說它覺得關鍵產業都是其經濟安全的一環，晶片是一種，其他礦藏、稀土也都是它所關切的。"],["羅委員明才：所以你們在談判的時候要整體研究一下。比如說你要請教一下央行總裁啊！如果美國向我們課關稅，那你要有像加拿大總理那個氣魄，談判不要輸嘛！若你見面、一看到川普就輸一半，那怎麼談下去呢？強硬一點好不好？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：好。"],["羅委員明才：請教央行，如果美國要用高關稅，我們已經對他們很好了喔！要我們買武器就買武器，叫我們做什麼就做什麼、全力配合，他們卻還要一致性地比照其他國家，對我們課高關稅，這是不公平的！你就帶一句。","那麼，在外匯存底中，美國國債買了多少？你再講一次。央行，多少？買了多少億美國公債？來，你說。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們剛才講，目前持有的美國公債部位是外匯存底的九成，但因為……"],["羅委員明才：九成是多少？也有四千多億美元啊！"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，四千多億。"],["羅委員明才：好，就是這句話。談判代表，你就說要是美國向我們弄高關稅，那我們持有的四千多億美國公債就全部贖回！這樣理解吧？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們各種談判策略都會納入考量。"],["羅委員明才：本席的用心理解？請你們站在所有產業未來發展的辛苦方面多多考量。","另外，健康食品的部分，現在人口老化，吃健康食品的都是老人啊！結果負擔的成本卻是那麼高。你們趕緊檢討一下吧！"],["江次長文若：是，我們會進行檢討。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員的質詢。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。報告委員會，葉元之委員質詢完畢後，我們休息5分鐘，因為已經快兩個小時沒有休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名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麻煩請李遠部長"},{"start":12.449,"end":39.859,"text":"好有請李部長部長 黃委員你好我想延續因為今天一早上大家都很關心央廣這件事件您剛剛也再一次重申身為文化人不能接受有這樣子被詐領的一個案件嘛 是不是好 但是我覺得不要高高舉起輕輕放下這件事情為什麼感覺到那麼的嚴重我覺得還是幾個部分我們看一下現在新聞已經揭露出來的狀況"},{"start":41.311,"end":70.852,"text":"檢報 有嗎來 下一張 下一張好 2000多筆異常這是現在廉政署暴露出來的嘛那當時是有委由來 我們上一張當時是文化部有要求央廣要委外調查但調查報告沒有公開那我想請教當時的委外調查報告結案了沒有結案嘛 有沒有送到文化部"},{"start":72.708,"end":74.27,"text":"文化部有任何一個長官有看到嗎這個要問一下他的報告送過來之後當時的都有足跡成河什麼事"},{"start":85.621,"end":106.468,"text":"當時都有逐級成合都有成合 有成合到部長嗎是的 那成合之後也因為我們會針對中間其實有些比較缺失的太陽我們也在111年的時候就進行了移送檢調的動作那目前就是在偵查當中所以過去三年多已從111年的時候送檢調到現在才再次來做處理 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不管是收入廉政署來處理啊部長"},{"start":267.54,"end":279.513,"text":"您覺得這都沒您的事還是好官我自為之反正有啊那時候有行政調查報告啊有簽到文化部啊沒錯啊央廣的董事長剛剛有講了但那個時候的部長不是我啊"},{"start":280.503,"end":300.75,"text":"不是這樣子好官我自為之也不是這樣子其實我剛才一直跟你們講我幹了五十年幹過多少機構這種事情當然是有我完全不能忍受當然不能忍受我也不能忍受但是我不能夠忘下我更沒有辦法接受事實上發生事情之後還沒有辦法公開透明為什麼不能忘下結論因為這裡面一定很複雜嘛人為的 結構的"},{"start":305.351,"end":328.161,"text":"財務的 會計的 法律的我看起來喔非常複雜複雜是人搞出來的因為當時文化部已經要求委外調查為什麼要委外為什麼不是我們部內調查就是怕部內調查可能官官相護嘛那我既然已經委外調查了結果調查出來的結果之後以一個錢沒有進任何人口袋然後就結案了事"},{"start":332.383,"end":350.578,"text":"那部長我還是尊重喔我尊重你要看不慣路見不平拔刀相助要來調查要來要求用你的態度讓所有文化部下面的單位或者是至少我們讓我們的公務體系知道未來不會有這樣的狀況您要怎麼做"},{"start":353.18,"end":367.936,"text":"再找另外一個委外單位來調查不會不會 我們目前剛剛已經講過公管集團的董事會已經要求成立一個專案小組那這個部分我會責成專案小組的負責人會是誰我不曉得 誰"},{"start":375.682,"end":390.068,"text":"這個就是央廣的事情我們現在釐清到現在了就是央廣內部的問題四年前為什麼文化部要求委外調查就是認為說不要公關相護那結果做出來的調查報告是這個樣子你現在再過來四年後"},{"start":391.195,"end":407.127,"text":"廉政署在處理廉政署的工作但你自己有內部調查的作業那我現在請教內部調查的作業到底是部長宣誓來說我來帶領這個專案小組來查弊案來檢視到底有沒有不合理還是你責成哪一個市長"},{"start":409.267,"end":424.183,"text":"這跟處理霸凌案的事件我覺得類似啊霸凌案的事件絕對不能讓那個單位自己主管自己調查如果說那個單位主管自己調查的話那抱歉一定是大事化小 小事化無嘛那我現在已經有出來這樣的狀況而且"},{"start":426.286,"end":444.372,"text":"上禮拜新聞你也有表示檢調調查中文化部的態度是完全透明好嘛 那檢調調查 廉政署調查的歸廉政署調查但你文化部到目前為止你之前 今天早上我有聽到喔你說一個月裡面也要給我們相關資料"},{"start":445.692,"end":456.177,"text":"那我們可以期待什麼一個月如果你到現在都不知道說誰來負責做這件事情我怎麼期待我一個月之後收到什麼樣的資料會不會又是兩頁三頁部長"},{"start":461.857,"end":487.916,"text":"我想我在這邊跟你保證我請次長我們一個次長層級的次長來盯整件事因為他比較負責全部的因為本身我想請王次他本身也是在我們部裡面負責這種霸凌性平的他剛好也是負責這個單位可以嗎我在這裡跟你保證因為我也不希望這種事情一直拖下去王實施次長"},{"start":488.696,"end":515.651,"text":"負責整個專案報告來把這件事情從過去四年的機密文件機密報告沒有公開的也做一個釐清以及現在的狀況一個月後可以給我們立法院可以讓國人知道到底這個事情的經過是怎麼樣去標籤化沒有要個資但去標籤化釐清事實真相是嗎"},{"start":516.84,"end":543.431,"text":"我跟委員報告我們自己在我們文化部部內律己慎言對那個姓平英隆人我相信百分之九十九點九會說有靈丸當然真的很有信任也都絕對不會通常枉法但是既然已經出現了我們就把它給釐清 好嗎是不是部長是會後再跟紅委員報告好不好不好意思"},{"start":547.369,"end":551.461,"text":"好 部長辛苦請回好 我們接下來請伍麗華委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":750,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時22分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請李遠部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長遠：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席想延續剛才的問題，因為今天早上大家都很關心央廣這個事件。您剛剛也再次重申，身為文化人不能接受這種被詐領的案件，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席希望不要高高舉起、輕輕放下。這件事情為什麼會那麼嚴重？本席覺得和幾個部分有關，我們看一下現在新聞揭露的狀況，其中有二千多筆異常，這是現在廉政署暴露出來的，當時文化部有要求央廣委外調查，但調查報告並沒有公開。本席想請教，當時的委外調查報告結案了嗎？有結案嗎？有沒有送到文化部？文化部有任何長官看到嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個要問一下。"],["吳司長宜璇：報告送過來之後，當時都有逐級呈核。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼意思？有呈核給部長嗎？"],["吳司長宜璇：是的。呈核之後，因為有些態樣有問題，所以我們111年就進行移送檢調的動作，目前是在偵查當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以過去這三年多時間，你們是111年送檢調，現在才再次處理，是不是這樣？當時這個報告列為不公開是誰的決定？是文化部還是央廣？"],["吳司長宜璇：因為這一份查核報告是由央廣委外調查，它和……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！是文化部要求央廣委外調查，但是到最後調查報告卻不公開，這是誰的決定？"],["吳司長宜璇：他們有受一些會計師……"],["賴董事長秀如：因為在這個案子當中，會計師查核的資料裡面有非常多個資，而且有些人並不見得有違法，所以當時董事會除了向文化部呈核，還有在董事會報告之外，並沒有對外公開。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，其實當時的行政調查就是高高舉起、輕輕放下，錢沒有落入任何一個人的口袋，所以認定沒有弊端，這就是調查的內容，結果時任的職員都留在原職，有人退休，還有人高升。本席想請教部長，經過上個禮拜到這個禮拜這樣的紛紛擾擾，以及你今天早上、我想你今天來備詢一定是有備而來的嘛！你有沒有瞭解，到底有多少涉案的人如今還高升？有沒有瞭解？"],["李部長遠：並沒有人高升，我覺得我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：並沒有人高升，所以這個新聞寫錯？"],["李部長遠：我不知道它……"],["洪委員孟楷：一人升任主秘、一人退休。"],["李部長遠：這個我要請教當事人，他有沒有升主秘？有沒有人退休？我真的不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：你真的不知道？還是你不瞭解？還是你從頭到尾都沒有想要去關心這件事情？部長，這是你的態度問題欸！"],["賴董事長秀如：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛很認同、也很尊重你的態度，也認為有弊案，雖然那個時候不是你當部長，所以你不瞭解，不怪你，但是從上個禮拜五這個事件出來之後，央廣昨天發了新聞稿，央廣的新聞稿當然寫得很漂亮，冠冕堂皇、改了多少、改了多少，但重點是2015年到2021年這7年多的時間裡面，高達二、三千筆的錯誤單據。還有這些錯誤單據不是只有央廣的部分，它裡面甚至有提到和其他的公家機關往來帳務不清，也因此才會由廉政署出手嘛！為什麼是由廉政署出手？就是因為這是公務體系內部的，不管是支出或收入，都是由廉政署來處理啊！","部長，你覺得這都沒您的事？還是好官我自為之，反正那個時候有行政調查報告簽到文化部，沒錯，央廣的董事長剛才也有講，但是那個時候的部長不是我。"],["李部長遠：不是這樣子，好官我自為之也不是這樣子，其實我剛才一直跟你們講，我幹了50年、幹過多少的機構，這種事情當然是有，我完全不能忍受。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然不能忍受，我也不能忍受。"],["李部長遠：但是我不能夠妄下結論。"],["洪委員孟楷：我更沒有辦法接受的是，事情發生之後還是沒有辦法公開透明。"],["李部長遠：我為什麼不能妄下結論？因為這裡面一定很複雜嘛！人為的、結構的、財務的、會計的、法律的，它非常複雜，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：我看起來，複雜是人搞出來的，因為當時文化部已經要求委外調查，為什麼要委外？為什麼不是我們部內調查？就是怕部內調查可能官官相護嘛！既然我已經委外調查了，結果調查出來的結果是以一個錢都沒有進任何人口袋，然後就結案了事。部長，我還是尊重喔！我尊重你看不慣要路見不平、拔刀相助的來調查，你要用你的態度讓文化部下面所有的單位，至少要讓我們的公務體系知道，未來不能有這樣的狀況，你要怎麼做？"],["李部長遠：目前，我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：再找另外一個委外單位來調查？"],["李部長遠：不會、不會，我們剛才已經講過，就是公廣集團的董事會已經要求成立一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：專案小組？"],["李部長遠：對，這個部分我會責成……"],["洪委員孟楷：專案小組的負責人會是誰？"],["李部長遠：我不曉得。"],["賴董事長秀如：跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，來，部長，這是央廣的事情，我們釐清到現在，這就是央廣內部的問題，為什麼4年前文化部會要求要委外調查？就是認為不要官官相護，結果做出來的調查報告是這個樣子，你現在再過來，4年後，廉政署在處理廉政署的工作，但是你自己有內部的調查作業，我現在請教，你們內部的調查作業是由部長宣示的來說，這會由我來帶領這個專案小組來查弊案，來檢視到底有沒有不合理？還是你會責成哪一個次長？我覺得這跟處理霸凌案事件類似，霸凌案的事件絕對不能讓那個單位的主管自己調查，如果是由那個單位的主管自己調查，那歹勢！這一定是大事化小、小事化無嘛！現在已經有出來這樣的狀況，而且上個禮拜新聞出來時你也有表示，該事件檢調正在調查中，文化部的態度完全透明。好嘛！檢調調查，廉政署調查的歸廉政署調查，但你文化部到目前為止，今天早上我有聽到你說1個月內也要給我們相關的資料，那1個月後我們可以期待什麼？如果你到現在都還不知道要由誰來負責做這件事情，那我要怎麼期待1個月後我會收到什麼樣的資料？會不會又是2頁、3頁？部長，你的態度是？"],["李部長遠：我在這邊跟你保證，我會請次長層級的來盯整件事，他會負責全部，我想請王次，他本身在我們部裡面就是負責霸凌和性平的，他剛好也是負責這個單位，可以嗎？我在這裡跟你保證，因為我也不希望這種事情一直拖下去。"],["洪委員孟楷：王時思次長負責整個專案報告？"],["李部長遠：對，他現在不在現場。"],["洪委員孟楷：會由他來把這件事情，從過去4年的機密文件、機密報告、沒有公開的也做一個釐清，以及現在的狀況，1個月後可以給我們立法院、可以讓國人知道這件事情的經過是怎麼樣。我們沒有要個資，去標籤化的釐清事實真相，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員報告，我們文化部部內律已甚嚴，對性平零容忍，所以我跟你保證……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我相信99.9%的公務人員真的都很優秀，也絕對不會貪贓枉法。"],["李部長遠：這點請你放心。"],["洪委員孟楷：但既然問題已經出現了，我們就把它釐清，好嗎？謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，我剛才已經承諾你了。"],["主席：是不是時間超過太久？不好意思，是不是請部長會後再跟洪委員報告，好不好？不好意思。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長辛苦，請回。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9003586e1693351e8ea7648dfe0a0275fc59b62a44c83059aaff356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:03:20 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有人領四個月領滿六個月的只有兩萬一千人所以你去推估說有領滿的我再多給他一個月"},{"start":181.191,"end":207.425,"text":"這個是照顧了兩萬一千人左右可是全部總需求理論上都有需求而且都去申請的話應該是九十萬人啊所以去年我們根據勞保的那個生育給付實際上有發生育給付的是八萬一千八百多人那如果父母都來領的話那三歲啊所以有三個啊八萬多去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊"},{"start":208.185,"end":232.152,"text":"生育給付有來請領是8萬1我有的人不請領不代表他沒需求要暈流停他不請領生育給付他有可能他又不是受雇者或是其他的但是他生了小孩過去三歲以下的總嬰兒數總小孩數大概四五十萬不要在這邊講到那裡去都浪費我的時間"},{"start":233.132,"end":236.376,"text":"四、五十萬的人,加點有備,有補的時間加起來就是九十萬人啦有九十萬人有資格去請啦但是呢,算是你請完,還要是兩萬一千人啦所以呢,在這裡我要講的是,你們因為流停多領一個月這個策略,這個政策,你沒有擴大"},{"start":253.888,"end":260.535,"text":"照顧更多需求的人你只是讓便宜形式讓有資料請萬六個月那本來就是條件比較好讓他再給你一個月金價重要的是其他有90萬人他為什麼沒有不敢請滿不敢請領請滿然後也不敢請價不敢請滿也不敢來請錢也不敢請全請"},{"start":274.659,"end":293.308,"text":"這才是重要的嘛 那就是問題啊那我們在講說延長育嬰留庭這個有效有可以提升生育的意願嗎或者是多發放一個月的津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎不要忘了死亡人數20萬啦2024年生育率13萬-負的7萬人耶"},{"start":301.192,"end":324.794,"text":"再繼續付下去 台灣會很嚴重所以這持續五年的副成長而且2024年是出生人數最低的那一年而你們國科會自己有做一個研究少殖民化問題和對策實證調查分析報告受訪的人都說其實第一經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素"},{"start":325.715,"end":334.125,"text":"然後呢多數表示如果生育補助育兒津貼對生育的意願影響是有限的"},{"start":335.367,"end":353.936,"text":"其實是經濟啦 大家可想而知是經濟啦為什麼經濟 剛剛那個次長給我們上了一堂課啊所以啊 大家都需要工作啊 女性也需要工作啊我也不想依賴先生 事實上先生也不見得能夠依賴大家一個家庭都需要雙薪收入所以絕對不能離職 不能少一份工作"},{"start":358.198,"end":377.388,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 如果在這種狀況 你的想像要怎麼樣留住女性勞動力 因為她不能離職然後呢 又要她生小孩 讓她在家庭跟工作之間不能夠二擇一 同時都要兼顧這個就是勞動部過去所想像的本來是說鼓勵大家留職 停薪育兒 暫時離開職場可是大家都知道 暫時離開職場要重返"},{"start":385.671,"end":408.996,"text":"門檻很高啦障礙很多啦所以現在才一直在轉換變成說能不能一邊育兒一邊工作不要中斷工作也不要中斷年資然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡所以我們一直在講的是說要普及公共化托育設施要放寬家庭照顧假"},{"start":410.296,"end":419.37,"text":"要把育嬰變成彈性親職架因為大家都知道 不然要死的時候錢是最重要的啦"},{"start":420.509,"end":442.021,"text":"第二就是不是孩子生出來就自己大喊要陪伴 大家都知道要陪伴所以工作時數能不能陪伴也是很重要然後呢 遇到他學校有幼兒園大家都知道從保母那裡3歲送到幼兒園就開始每天感冒3歲到6歲每天都感冒 每天都要去哭"},{"start":445.083,"end":457.662,"text":"所以這個要有價要有價怎麼來不可能你們雇主跟勞工之間有這麼多價你們願意給所以我們一直在講把育嬰價變成彈性輕職價"},{"start":460.706,"end":480.56,"text":"所以生育案養育補貼很重要沒有錯但是要營造一個比這兩個東西還更友善的條件人家才願意生養就是要友善的生兒育女的環境你現在提供的現金補貼當然是看得到你重視它可是你們都挑最便宜形式的給錢就沒了"},{"start":481.32,"end":495.416,"text":"而你們不願意多做一點其他各種優惠和環境配套要讓他進來所以在這裡呢國科會自己有委託研究案我剛剛講少子女化的問題案對策實證調查報告分析顯示"},{"start":496.457,"end":521.982,"text":"育嬰價的改革雖然有顯著增加多生育胎的機率但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上對高所得的人來講毫無影響那其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資45800 天花板在那裡所以投保薪資上限還是很低 沒有幼嬰"},{"start":523.462,"end":548.108,"text":"那主計總處2020有統計照顧未滿12歲的子女而離職的女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍那從育嬰留庭和津貼制度的設計還是沒有辦法解決從這個女性又要兼顧家庭又要這個兼顧工作的這個問題"},{"start":550.185,"end":567.451,"text":"然後女性在這種狀況如果要選擇的話有時候就會讓她女性工作的技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積所以讓女性的勞動者她會去堅持還有做那種part-time以外就變成低薪化堅持化和低薪化"},{"start":568.251,"end":585.485,"text":"如果不離職不能離開場他要去做的工作可能要照顧家庭要照顧要工作他要做兼職然後有可能還會低薪化所以監察院國家人權委員會在家庭照顧責任和婚姻變故對婦女就業和經濟安全的影響當中有提到"},{"start":586.767,"end":596.177,"text":"不少女性為了照顧家庭不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制兼職的工作但是缺少底薪的保障收入不穩定導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險"},{"start":603.906,"end":622.653,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們的女性勞參率跌下來了25到29歲本來是九成你剛剛講了你看她40到44歲來到78.6%的參與率可是同樣的年齡層我講過一遍一遍又一遍在瑞典在德國"},{"start":624.894,"end":653.155,"text":"40到44歲的女性勞動力的參與率比25到29歲還要更高瑞典是高出7.6%德國是高了4%人家是怎麼做那我如果要這樣講的話其實我有一個建議啦你們的這種身家多一個月的津貼然後說多五天的這個什麼家庭詐是不是用那個小時來計算不如這樣子講 我也獻策"},{"start":654.196,"end":669.711,"text":"如果是經濟安全考量 第一個 你們去大量蓋親子住宅這種親子社會住宅 因為經濟壓力最大 就來自於買房和租房大量的親子住宅 打五折 不是八折的社會住宅這個不是勞動部 這個也不是某一個單位 社福部門能解決這是請全國國家的力量要來做的"},{"start":680.077,"end":703.582,"text":"打五折的親子社會住宅第二一站式服務在裡面公共托育完整所以讓大家在這裡面經濟的壓力降低了公共托育承擔起了這個爸爸媽媽所最擔心的公共托育公共幼兒園全部都進來了"},{"start":704.822,"end":709.404,"text":"還要加上彈性輕職假這樣子讓女性在家庭和職場在經濟和養小孩之間我們不做選擇幼稚才要做選擇政策照顧不周才需要做選擇國家不負責任國家不負責任政府不負責任才要做選擇我們女性叫我們女性生小孩跟工作"},{"start":732.651,"end":749.236,"text":"我不做選擇我兩者通通要那你給我們一戰式的服務親子打五折的親子社會住宅給我們彈性親子假這樣你看這樣有意願可以有想要生育嗎朝初都打五折政府企業在大應該有啦應該有喔你們都不這樣說你們都不這樣說要給內政部來參選"},{"start":758.103,"end":764.188,"text":"不是這樣而已 你來看我們的國發會主委說什麼啦少子女化的原因是什麼少子女化的原因在這裡啦國發會講的 國發會主委講的啦最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象這個新聞我也是最近才知道欸真的很訝異啊 你覺得你可以接受"},{"start":784.997,"end":793.885,"text":"在座的大家包括次長各單位的業務單位台灣小子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎"},{"start":796.974,"end":816.848,"text":"所以我的理解新加坡政府是最近這裡每一年都編預算去找各個民間團體去辦所謂的那個未婚男女的聯誼這個我們支持我們也大量的鼓勵政府可以這麼做可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因你會歸則於最大原因是這個嗎有這麼幼稚嗎好啦再下一個"},{"start":823.11,"end":839.582,"text":"國科委委託了這個找人家來研究啦少子女化問題案對策實證調查報告花了多少錢啊兩個案子都委託台大經濟系去做啦兩個案子都兩千兩百萬加起來四千多萬"},{"start":841.107,"end":859.68,"text":"然後提了一個少子女化問題案對策實證調查分析案報告他說台灣平均年工時2020高於OECD的1742顯示已婚全職者平均一天工作 已婚的喔 全職的喔平均一天要工作九個小時通勤一個小時 十個小時的"},{"start":860.28,"end":876.095,"text":"已婚的女性晚上加班 夜間工作平均1.1個小時男性晚上加班 已婚男性1.85個小時所以25到39歲已婚的人 夜間工時平均要1.6個小時他怎麼陪伴小孩"},{"start":878.797,"end":892.815,"text":"工作壓力 長工時 育嬰假沒有彈性使用上還有性別的差異所以讓女性在婚育過程當中承受較大的職癌中斷的風險而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長家庭互動時間不足"},{"start":894.637,"end":917.785,"text":"所以青年會傾向於申請更短期的育嬰假所以我們需要的是這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化而生育後的母親他的勞動參與率跟工資皆明顯下降而且持續時間很長所以這個對男性影響不大 對女性影響很大所以要兼顧家庭所以我有禁慾生育率跟女性就業率的正相關"},{"start":919.145,"end":942.596,"text":"你生育率要提高但是女性的就業率也要提高兩個都要正相關而這樣的有效的政策才能夠讓家長女性勞動率蓄留職場才可以避免制度誤導女性離職去育兒所以我們在講這個事你要看下一頁勞動部"},{"start":944.713,"end":972.78,"text":"不是 國發會國發會提出的政策建議是什麼針對未婚男性 男女啦要建置身份認證的交友平台這個我有點懷疑啊如果年輕 應該問年輕男女民間那麼多 你去參加然後政府也建置這個我們都不反對而且我們認為也可以做 而且應該要做但是會是國家重大的政策嗎"},{"start":975.106,"end":991.098,"text":"針對未婚青年重大的政策是做這樣子嗎然後增加家庭和育兒支持他講到投保薪資上限要拿掉拿更多那這樣子你們的"},{"start":992.419,"end":1017.589,"text":"給父要更多喔所以他認為你們的給父是不夠的然後還有你看怎麼樣增加年輕人願意生小孩的意願放寬家事幫傭移工幫助育兒工作如果要放寬家事移工放寬育兒工作那我們還需要在這裡討論公托還需要在這裡討論這個津貼嗎"},{"start":1021.41,"end":1037.997,"text":"這個有沒有階級化的需求 難怪從國發會 國科會 到勞動部 到政府都一講說我要放寬家事幫傭大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔"},{"start":1052.174,"end":1055.339,"text":"說這些都太橫了啦所以我在講意思是他們下一頁是什麼政策目標下一頁有嗎 沒有了 好"},{"start":1062.375,"end":1084.839,"text":"所以在這裡家事幫庸可以解決男女分工的問題家事幫庸可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題然後讓他們願意生 但願如此啊說到這都太狠了開4000萬元 研究出來政策給政府的政策是這樣 放寬家事幫庸然後去做一個交友平台"},{"start":1089.929,"end":1111.435,"text":"台大走的然後國發會奉為歸納勞動部放寬家事帮傭奉為歸納這樣子可以解決嗎我要說都不用了我這個不去做政策研究我告訴你我剛才說了 再說一次打五折的 親子社會住宅以戰士的服務社區裡面全面的從0到6歲"},{"start":1114.076,"end":1125.119,"text":"托兒 托育 全面一站式服務然後我剛剛講的育嬰留庭不給雇主麻煩 也不給政府麻煩把它變成放寬到8歲然後以天 甚至以小時為單位可以去請領的彈性親職假這才是正本清源啦 別說那麼多啦"},{"start":1139.581,"end":1156.931,"text":"經濟問題要改觀住宿的問題要可進性高要可負擔性打五折的社會住宅啦就是這樣子這樣可以了嗎我們那個關於那個迂流艇還有家庭照顧架更彈性化的方向我們現在全部都在研議中"},{"start":1158.49,"end":1180.912,"text":"你這個幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月九十萬人跟我們兩萬人看得到吃得到其他八十幾萬人看不到了也不會贏用不到了所以不要那種那一種都是就都照顧你們就是我也不曉得是什麼一回事好啦不說了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1301,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時3分）是不是請國發會及勞動部？好吧！暫時就這樣子。"],["主席：謝處長。"],["林委員淑芬：國發會派副主委過來，連副主委都還要請假，由此可知是多不重視啊！","為什麼今天我們要談少子女化的議題，因為臺灣老化的速度太快，已經進入超高齡社會，65歲以上的人口占了20%。老化太快並不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多，形成超高齡社會有一個原因是突然間大家的壽命都延長許多、增加許多，要不然就是總生育率下降得太快，而我們就是總生育率下降得太快，並不是平均壽命提高很多。這是很重要的，因為全世界超高齡社會的樣態很多，而我們與日本大概就是總生育率下降得太快的類型，成為全世界的先行者，我們有可能會找不到該如何因應的策略。同時面臨少子女化及超高齡社會的衝擊，政府也提出很多因應的對策，現在要研議將育嬰留職停薪津貼改為6加1個月，你們預估領6個月的大概有2萬1,000人，因此，再增加1個月就是增加6億元，對不對？"],["李次長健鴻：對，沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，有資格請領育嬰留職停薪津貼的有多少人？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員，去年的數字是九萬三千多人。"],["林委員淑芬：9萬？不是3歲以下嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：去年實際有來請領的。"],["林委員淑芬：3歲以下平均大約也有四、五十萬人吧？"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["林委員淑芬：四、五十萬個家庭有3歲以下的小孩，以夫妻2個人來算的話，大概就是90萬人具有資格，而你說去年來請領的人次是9萬左右，這樣也只有十分之一。現在你說來請領的人，有的只領1個月、有的領3個月、有的領4個月，領滿6個月的只有2萬1,000人，所以你就推估有領滿的就多給1個月，這個做法照顧了2萬1,000人左右，但是全部的總需求，理論上，都有需求、都去申請的話，應該是90萬人啊！"],["李次長健鴻：根據去年勞保發出的生育給付，實際上有八萬一千八百多人，如果父母都來領的話，乘以2就是16萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：3歲，所以有3個啊！八萬多？去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊！"],["李次長健鴻：請領生育給付的人數是八萬一千多人。"],["林委員淑芬：有的人不請領並不代表沒有育嬰留停的需求啊！"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["林委員淑芬：不請領生育給付有可能不是受僱者或是其他。"],["李次長健鴻：沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：過去3歲以下的總嬰兒數、總小孩數大概是四、五十萬啊！不要再講到那裡去，多浪費我的時間。四、五十萬個家庭的父母加起來就是90萬人，所以有90萬人具資格請領，但事實上請領滿6個月的是2萬1,000人，所以我要講的是你們育嬰留停多領1個月的這個策略、這個政策並沒有擴大照顧更多有需求的人，你們只是便宜行事，其實有能力請領滿6個月的本來就是條件比較好的人，現在這樣做只是讓他們又多領1個月。最重要的是有90萬人為什麼不敢請滿、不敢請領？假不敢請滿，也不敢來請領錢、也不敢請滿，這個才是重要的，這個才是問題啊！延長育嬰留停可以提升生育的意願嗎？或者多發放1個月津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎？不要忘了，2024年的死亡人數是20萬人，小孩的出生人數只有13萬人，minus、負的7萬人耶！再繼續負下去，臺灣會很嚴重喔！持續五年的負成長，而且2024年是出生人數最低的一年。","你們國科會自己也做了一個研究，少子女化問題與對策實證調查分析報告，受訪的人都說經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素，而且多數表示生育補助及育兒津貼對生育意願的影響是有限的，可想而知，問題還是在於經濟。為什麼是經濟？剛剛次長幫我們上了一堂課，大家都需要工作、女性也需要工作，我不想依賴先生，事實上，先生也不見得能夠依賴。大家的家庭都需要雙薪收入，所以絕對不能離職、不能少一份工作。"],["李次長健鴻：沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：在這樣的狀況下，你想像該如何留住女性勞動力？因為他不能離職，卻又要他生小孩，在家庭與工作之間不能二擇一，同時都要兼顧。這個就是勞動部過去所想像的，本來是鼓勵大家留職停薪，為了育兒暫時離開職場，但是大家都知道暫時離開職場要再重返的門檻很高啊！障礙很多啦！所以現在才一直在轉換，變成能不能一邊育兒、一邊工作，不要中斷工作，也不要中斷年資，然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["林委員淑芬：我們一直在講，要普及公共化托育設施，要放寬家庭照顧假，把育嬰變成彈性親職假，因為大家都知道錢是最重要的。第二、小孩不是生出來就自己長大，大家都知道要陪伴，所以工作時數能不能陪伴也很重要。大家都知道，然後從保母那裡，3歲送到學校、幼兒園就開始每天感冒了，3歲到6歲每天都感冒，每天都要去顧，所以這個要有假，假怎麼來？不可能雇主跟勞工之間……需要這麼多假，你們願意給嗎？","所以我們一直在講，把育嬰假變成彈性親職假。生育和養育補貼很重要沒有錯，但是要營造一個比這兩樣還更友善的條件，人家才願意生養，就是友善的生兒育女環境。你現在提供了現金補貼，當然是看得到你重視，可是你們都挑最便宜行事的，給錢就沒了，不願意多做一點，其他各種優惠和環境、配套也都要進來。","國科會自己也有委託研究案，講少子女化問題與對策實證調查分析報告顯示，育嬰假的改革，雖然有顯著增加多生一胎的機率，但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上，對高所得的人來講毫無影響。其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資4萬5,800，天花板在那裡，所以投保薪資上限還是很低，沒有誘因。主計總處2002年有統計，照顧未滿12歲子女而離職的，女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍，育嬰留停和津貼制度的設計，還是沒有辦法解決女性要兼顧家庭又要兼顧工作的問題。女性在這種狀況，如果要選擇的話，有時候就會讓女性的工作技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積，讓女性的勞動者會選擇去兼職或part-time，變成兼職化和低薪化，如果不離職，不能離開職場，他可能要照顧家庭又要工作，他要做兼職，然後有可能還會低薪化。","監察院在「國家人權委員會家庭照顧責任及婚姻變故對婦女就業與經濟安全的影響」當中也有提到，不少女性為了照顧家庭，不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制、兼職的工作，但是缺少底薪的保障，收入不穩定，導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險。所以在這種狀況下，我們的女性勞參率跌下來了，25歲到29歲本來是九成，你剛剛講了，你看40歲到44歲來到78.6%的參與率。可是同樣的年齡層，我講過一遍又一遍，在瑞典和德國，40歲到44歲的女性勞動參與率，比25歲到29歲還要更高，瑞典是高出7.6%，德國高了4%，人家是怎麼做的？","其實我有個建議，你們這種多1個月的津貼，然後多5天的什麼家庭照顧假用小時來計算。不如這樣，我也獻策，如果是經濟安全考量，第一、你們去大量蓋親子住宅，因為經濟壓力最大的就來自於買房和租房，大量的親子住宅，打五折！不是8折的社會住宅，這不是勞動部也不是某一個單位的社福部門能解決的，這是傾全部國家的力量要來做的，打五折的親子社會住宅。","第二、一站式服務，在裡面公共托育完整，讓大家經濟的壓力降低了，公共托育承擔起爸爸媽媽最擔心的部分。公共托育、公共幼兒園全部都進來，還要加上彈性親職假，讓女性在家庭和職場，在經濟和養小孩之間，我們不做選擇，幼稚才要做選擇，政策照顧不周才需要做選擇，國家不負責任、政府不負責任才要做選擇，叫我們女性生小孩跟工作，我不做選擇，兩者統統要，那你給我們一站式的服務，打五折的親子社會住宅，給我們彈性親職假，你看這樣大家會不會比較有意願生？租屋都打五折，政府蓋給你住。"],["李次長健鴻：應該有啦！"],["林委員淑芬：應該有喔！你怎麼都沒這樣說？"],["李次長健鴻：這要跟內政部商量。"],["林委員淑芬：不是只有這樣，你來看我們國發會主委說什麼，少子女化的原因是什麼？少子女化的原因在這裡啦！國發會主委講的，最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象。這個新聞我也是最近才知道，真的很訝異，你覺得你可以接受？在座的大家，包括次長、各單位的業務單位，臺灣少子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：據我理解，新加坡政府最近這幾年每年都編預算，找各個民間團體辦未婚男女的聯誼。"],["林委員淑芬：這個我們支持，我們也大力鼓勵政府可以這麼做，可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因，你會歸責最大原因是這個嗎？有這麼幼稚嗎？","再來，國科會委託了這個研究，少子女化問題和對策實證調查報告，花了多少錢？兩個案子都委託臺大經濟系去做，兩個案子都2,200萬，加起來四千多萬。然後提了個少子女化問題和對策實證調查分析報告，表示臺灣平均年工時2,020，高於OECD的1,742，顯示已婚全職者平均一天要工作9小時，通勤1小時，這樣就10個小時了。已婚女性晚上加班，夜間工作平均1.1小時，已婚男性1.85小時。所以25歲到39歲已婚的人，夜間工時平均要1.6個小時，他怎麼陪伴小孩？工作壓力、長工時，育嬰假沒有彈性，在使用上還有性別的差異，讓女性在婚育過程中承受較大的職涯中斷風險；而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長，家庭互動時間不足，導致青年會傾向申請更短期的育嬰假，所以我們需要的是，這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化。而生育後的母親，其勞動參與率跟工資明顯下降，而且持續時間很長，所以這個對男性影響不大，對女性影響很大。若要兼顧家庭，唯有建立生育率跟女性就業率的正相關，生育率要提高，女性的就業率也要提高，兩者都要正相關，這樣的有效政策才能讓家長、女性勞動力續留職場，避免制度誤導女性離職育兒。","有關這個議題，國發會提出的政策建議是什麼？第一、針對未婚男女，要建置身分認證的交友平臺。這個我有點懷疑，應該去問年輕男女，這個民間那麼多，你去參加，然後政府也建置，這個我們都不反對，我們也認為可以做，而且應該要做，但這會是國家的重大政策嗎？針對未婚青年，重大的政策是這樣做的嗎？第二、增加家庭和育兒支持，他有講到投保薪資上限要拿掉、拿更多，這樣子你們的給付要更多喔！所以他認為你們的給付是不夠的。","還有如何增加年輕人生小孩的意願？國發會說要放寬家事幫傭移工，幫助育兒工作。如果要放寬家事移工、放寬育兒工作，那我們還需要在這裡討論公托，還需要在這裡討論津貼嗎？這有沒有階級化的需求？難怪從國發會、國科會到勞動部，政府都一致說要放寬家事幫傭，所有年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔？年輕人都有能力請家事幫傭嗎？這是你們的主要核心政策目標嗎？我不知道你們是不食人間煙火，還是專門為有經濟能力的人，你的政策只服務有經濟能力的人嗎？談這些都太遙遠了。所以家事幫傭可以解決男女分工的問題，家事幫傭可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題，然後讓他們願意生？但願如此啦！他們講的這些都太誇張了，花四千多萬做的研究、獻策給政府的政策是這樣，放寬家事幫傭，然後去做一個交友平臺，還臺大做的，然後國發會奉為圭臬，勞動部也把放寬家事幫傭奉為圭臬，這樣子可以解決嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你講都不用啦！我沒去做政策研究，剛剛講的我再說一次，打5折的親子社會住宅，一站式的服務，社區裡從0歲到6歲，托兒、托育全面一站式服務；然後我剛剛講的育嬰留停，不給雇主麻煩，也不給政府麻煩，把他變成放寬到8歲，以天甚至以小時為單位可以請領的彈性親職假，這才是正本清源，不用講那麼多啦！經濟問題要解決，住宿的問題要可近性高、要可負擔性，打5折的社會住宅啦！就是這樣子，這樣可以嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：委員，關於育嬰留停和家庭照顧假更彈性化的方向，我們現在全部都在研議中。"],["林委員淑芬：你們這個多領1個月沒用啊！多領1個月，90萬人只有2萬人看得到、吃得到，其他八十幾萬人看不到，也不會用、用不到。所以不要那種都照顧……你們就是……我也不曉得是怎麼一回事，好啦！不說了。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。","接續我們請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900d65f0b31f6b2b7b847542dab5946a2249b62a44c83059aaf52fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:14:07 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你去夏宵演講說拿了一個大碗公說這個是討飯吃請問一下今天是可以用這種炸零然後這些不實的單據來討飯吃嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":222.654,"end":235.85,"text":"所以董事長你對這件事情有沒有任何的行政責任呢你自己有沒有任何行政責任你自己說你當了央視那個就是央廣三年當了央廣三年的董事長對這個案子到現在為止你只是親戚的一句遺憾"},{"start":243.936,"end":244.777,"text":"妳要道歉嗎過去三年沒有任何違法違規"},{"start":274.617,"end":299.769,"text":"公道的一個來處理請問一下有關於他的霸凌案你們會重啟調查嗎是的我們已經公告我們已經重啟調查然後這個調查裡頭會有法外部的法律專家跟律師然後會有心理師而且還會什麼時候重啟調查這個案子重新立案調查我們前天已經公開宣布了"},{"start":300.089,"end":323.918,"text":"所以從前天才開始如果今天當事人沒有再公開聲明沒有再公開向社會大眾呼喊你們也沒有重新調查所以是在前天才開始重新立案調查好董事長再給你最後一個機會最後機會你對這個案子除了遺憾之外你有任何的道歉嗎"},{"start":325.424,"end":352.957,"text":"我针对过去央广曾经有违规或者是不法的事情针对那个时候所呈现的事情我现在代表央广我可以说这是非常遗憾的但是我们也做了非常多的道歉你都不认为要道歉我甚至认为连部长这件事情等一下我现在问部长不要浪费我时间"},{"start":353.797,"end":382.387,"text":"你該講的時候不講 現在一直講你該處理的時候不處理 部長當時這三個 這三年來剛才董事長也說他擔任董事他擔任董事崔少仁有把相關的這些資料提供給董事包含他霸凌的情形 被霸凌的情形他也提供給董事那請問一下 如果現在還在留任董事的你要不要重新做一個調查 請問"},{"start":384.172,"end":400.198,"text":"他們的責任要不要重新做一個調查其實每件事情他都沒有講這麼簡單比如說吹哨人他是不是真的吹哨人他霸凌是不是在墾丁中調查中有霸凌我們把很多事情把它簡化掉但是我非常承認這件事情非常嚴重"},{"start":401.198,"end":419.749,"text":"因為我在文化界工作50年 我經歷過很多機構非常多的貪污 非常多的假戰 我非常不能夠忍受所以我承諾你 我會搞清楚 好嗎好 謝謝部長 我覺得包括當然這個案件還有當事人說他被霸凌 他現在重新立案調查在這個過程裡面 這個懲處"},{"start":424.792,"end":437.789,"text":"當時陳儲 大家都有質疑還有所有經手的主管也好 董事也好剛站在後面 他也是擔任董事我認為都要重啟行政調查 可以嗎"},{"start":438.632,"end":459.481,"text":"沒有問題啊 我個人聽到這個我就會想到我過去這五十年來到處遇到這種事情啊但是事情的真相只有靠徹底調查不能夠再聽單方面的話我跟您承諾謝謝 我不希望到時候吹哨人又要重新的再去跟社會大眾做一次呼籲跟呼喊 好不好是 是 沒問題 謝謝好 謝謝 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有沒有那裡面就有講到非常的清楚為什麼一開始的時候沒有藝光教會是因為當時是以公有的財產為主那如果根據那個報告書裡面"},{"start":233.393,"end":256.423,"text":"就是所謂的大量的不幸發生的時候他說這個大量也有包含就是對社會影響甚具的案件就是說基本上就是一光教會以我們對促轉會的報告來講的話完全符合這個意義它對整個社會對我們的民主化的過程有關鍵的影響因為是社會矚目的案件甚至國際矚目"},{"start":257.423,"end":269.121,"text":"那既然促轉會的報告都有這個部分了那部長是不是可以承諾就是主動促成這個事不要再等到萬一一光教會沒有來申請呢是不是能夠更積極主動一點"},{"start":270.58,"end":293.079,"text":"我們去主動找過一關教會我們剛才講到說要民間來申請是因為當年的不育已死有一個規定就是公有的場所我們可以去設定那私人的我們不能強迫私人的要他來申請要同意我們才能設所以我們用同樣的這個法條我們沒辦法強迫他設所以"},{"start":294.561,"end":311.801,"text":"當總統講完那個之後我們人權館就主動去建了這個一貫教會是不是請他來我們人權館的館長跟您報告是否簡短就好因為我待會還有另外一題所以你們已經主動接觸一貫教會了那這個審議的程序是不是能夠專案處理盡快好嗎我們可以主動來協助跟輔導"},{"start":314.284,"end":338.086,"text":"那大概多久多久的時間內會有結果呢審議的結果會出來以我們現在跟他溝通的過程事實上他們對於這樣的一個做法還沒有很冷很就如何保存如何就是讓這個空間更能彰顯這個轉型的正義當然據說系我是說那可不可以在既然你們已經接觸了一個月內給我一個報告好嗎"},{"start":341.169,"end":347.676,"text":"希望能夠盡速確定他的不以已止的地位或者是具轉型正義意義的地位部長 剛剛是問他一個月內給我報告這件事情三個月內應該可以確定吧"},{"start":357.781,"end":380.243,"text":"確定說確定掛牌就是一光教會是否具有轉型正義意義的一個官方的身份地位當初其實他想要爭取的是跟政府爭取不義遺址那政府把它退回來之後而是台北市文化局不是政府台北市文化局部分的政府那我們的確沒有通過這個不義遺址條例嘛"},{"start":380.523,"end":393.128,"text":"對 但是你們還是可以繼續審定啊對不對審定是一件正在進行的但是掛上不義遺址這件事情如果這個條例沒有過的話我們就只好想一個總統講的那個就是轉型正義的"},{"start":396.97,"end":418.712,"text":"具有轉型正義這個產育這個名稱來取代可是他還不是能夠取代不義遺址就這個方面我們跟他溝通部長我先打岔一下其實降讀那個東西並沒有排除專法沒過就不能夠有這個名稱那當然這個部分你們的法務可以去了解一下好不好那就先這樣那三個月內這件事可以定案吧"},{"start":419.424,"end":433.296,"text":"三個月內給你一個報告三個月內以前給你一個報告那再來就是那當然我想希望文化部盡快實現總統的承諾那第二個部分我想先請問那個文資局文資局 文資司"},{"start":439.784,"end":460.458,"text":"這個部分 你們應該知道我要問什麼事吧我現在覺得不能接受的事情是去年3月我們就揭露這件事情比李姓郎師 戲曲學禮上15年來是性侵多名學生 這個嚴重度您知道吧是性侵"},{"start":461.943,"end":483.223,"text":"然後這是調查確立的2024年6月戲曲學院就把他解聘終生不能再聘為教師可是呢至今他仍在客家戲曲界活躍多次參與漢陽北館劇團的演出那這個漢陽北館劇團長年受到文化資產局的補助"},{"start":484.424,"end":508.683,"text":"那今年二月戲曲學院的學生受紅杏校友邀請參加客家電視台節目演出排練當天才知道是理師帶領那這部分我想先講文資局我在開記者會前給你們空間跟機會因為我們是並沒有真的要找你麻煩可是記者會前文化部文資局給我的是說"},{"start":510.39,"end":534.361,"text":"沒有 漢陽北管劇團跟你們講他沒有參與任何的相關活動記者會後 你們今天據說之前給我的資料改口了說他沒有參與你們補助的活動所以是漢陽北管劇團說謊 第一次說謊還是你們 你知道 你們在包庇他們 可不可以講一下"},{"start":535.862,"end":559.876,"text":"好委員 這個我們經過上次記者會之後我們大概做了幾個動作啦第一個我們3月20號有發文給劇團那也當面在昨天也特別找了團長當面的面談好 那你現在可不可以講 當前一個多小時他們劇團已經正式在臉書上有正式的聲明書有大概他的講法 我們他是說"},{"start":560.717,"end":564.406,"text":"請問我先很簡單第一次漢陽北館劇團你們問的時候他們是不是說謊"},{"start":565.731,"end":591.237,"text":"你們第一次給本席的就是說內容啊就是他完全沒有參與任何活動後來改成說沒有參與你們補助的活動所以就是說那些活動他們有參加但是只是不是你們的補助那這樣第一次你們給本席的資訊在我的記者會前不就是他們說謊然後你們不知道嗎我好心想說你們不知道我想這個是他們帶給我們的資訊那我現在問您他第一次是不是說謊嘛"},{"start":593.585,"end":604.818,"text":"我想這個是可能他們表這個我們不敢確認他是不是刻意的還是說他不是刻意說謊所以他有說謊只是你不知道他是不是刻意嗎"},{"start":607.894,"end":636.131,"text":"好 那我要講的事情這麼重大一個性侵犯業界都知道漢陽北本劇團立委在詢問記者會前給你們空間還膽敢跟你們掩飾事實那之後你們有沒有再問他說你們第一次為什麼沒有告訴我們那個 您知道這件事情嗎因為我今天質詢前又繼續跟你們要資料啦是那他們有沒有給你一個解釋為什麼第一次不給你真實完整的資訊"},{"start":639.81,"end":655.346,"text":"沒有 您到現在都不知道 請關切這件事情如果黃子嬌從此不能夠看任何的 不能上節目的話這個是性侵犯 而且是十幾名學生那這件事情是非常嚴重的 好嗎如果一個漢陽北館劇團跟你們說謊的話"},{"start":658.869,"end":686.641,"text":"不讓他參加送你們補助的活動卻讓他上台表演在別的活動我認為這個漢陽北館劇團他在倫理上對性別平等的價值上真的據說不值得拿到我們公家的資源補助那是不是可以請您去調查了解一下他為什麼說謊 好不好好那另外就是因為時間的緣故客家電視台我現在覺得那個您是 您的身分是"},{"start":687.541,"end":711.38,"text":"委員好 我是台長台長喔 那您有沒有看到那天那個你們客家電視台我們邀請他來我們的記者會他當天說的話有我不知道你們是找一個不會說話的人來記者會讓我們執政黨的立委覺得非常的難堪喔就講一個好像完全聽不懂我們在編什麼為什麼不找一個了解狀況的人他分明就是在迴避有沒有參與排練的事實你們"},{"start":712,"end":727.487,"text":"在我今天質詢前給我的資料也完全迴避我們問的是人家人本 戲曲學院自己做的調查都有四名學生接到校友的邀請當天才知道是李詩佳"},{"start":728.647,"end":751.107,"text":"講的是排練那你們在跟我玩文字遊戲給我的公視今天的公視幫他背書你這個客家電視台的調查真的是講的是說沒有參加角色名單工作沒有我們講的是排練那你在玩文字遊戲說他沒有演出沒有掛名工作人員你覺得我這個立委是要跟你玩文字遊戲嗎"},{"start":753.26,"end":768.372,"text":"局長你有沒有看過給本席的你們的東西公文你同意這個公文的品質嗎報告委員確實在那一天的記者會之後我們同步採取了三個比較主要的行動除了聽到劇團的說法我們不排除就是"},{"start":768.812,"end":785.016,"text":"他有不是事實的可能所以我們協同公視的法務人員到他們講到的排練地點實地去敞刊那同時也跟三個主要關鍵的包括團長製作人還有在記者會上提到紅信的老師當面面談從早上9點到12點是在3月15號週六這個日子"},{"start":788.337,"end":803.868,"text":"那我們也接續的用公文的方式協請台灣戲曲學院以及教育部協助我們調查我知道你們都在公文往返啦那你們有沒有問他說到底有沒有讓學生跟這個性侵狼屍理屍排列就這麼簡單的事實陳述他跟你說沒有"},{"start":806.129,"end":821.277,"text":"是不是我們透過公文的方式也確實收到回函那他們不僅有這個台灣李源戲劇團的回函還有當時的導演以及你們都只能跟他們公文不能夠你們下面的節目只能跟他們公文不能問他說有沒有參與問永英說有沒有參與排演 排練我們有問他他說沒有"},{"start":825.999,"end":836.45,"text":"收到的資訊目前因為沒有辦法用單方的資訊來做驗證所以我們協請教育部或許他們那邊可以有比較多那個我想我們周圍站起來不想浪費大家時間部長你聽到他們調查的品質了"},{"start":842.176,"end":862.756,"text":"就是說不知道為什麼只能用公文公文都在迴避事實說沒有做別的事那可是公文都已經呈現很危險的資料要那位主角去跟這個理事請教身段請教什麼然後講得不清不楚我的中文不夠好看不懂到底有沒有碰面什麼之後只有電話那之前呢為什麼要玩這種文字遊戲你們這種調查品質文化部長請您讓"},{"start":867.58,"end":892.692,"text":"讓他們台長本身性別平等的訓練顯然不足文資剛剛那位是局長嘛 顯然不夠重視這件事我跟他說性侵十幾名戲曲學院終生不得聘任的老師那可以讓下面的人這樣子呼嚨我們大家浪費我的時間我們去年就揭曝這個事情今年又跟郭玉琴委員 今年三個立委今天我再度質詢 還是沒辦法得到答案"},{"start":893.132,"end":908.762,"text":"真的是非常非常對你們不夠重視這件事情非常的失望我相信這部長不瞭解這件事情部長可不可以給我一個檢討報告為什麼一個案子要花我們這麼多的時間他是杏青郎師十幾名學生欸部長可以給我一個檢討報告嗎我知道他們正在調查了可是這個過程真的讓人失望那多久內可以給我一個檢討報告"},{"start":922.795,"end":925.517,"text":"我要以文化部的名義給我一個檢討報告好嗎 沒問題那個兩個月還是一個月 部長兩個月好嗎好 兩個月好謝謝昭偉 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":631,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時58分）謝謝召委。有請部長、文資司司長跟客家電視台台長。","先請部長，後半段在問他們兩位。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員，你好。"],["范委員雲：部長，你好。我想您到現在應該知道，就是林宅血案的遺址，依照文資法申請成為臺北市的史蹟被駁回，我有開記者會，因為我認為他們的理由和審查的意見前後矛盾，一方面說這個事情調查沒有明確，二方面又推給文化部，說不義遺址專法還沒有通過。事實上，如果根據我列出來的促轉會調查報告，血案已經非常清楚見證國家介入司法，情治單位國安局隱匿關鍵電話，對專案小組隱瞞，這都是促轉會的報告，所以情治國安介入司法，侵害人權，是明確的事實。對於這個部分，我覺得賴總統的高度非常的好，他在228當天發言承諾，請文化部啟動審議程序，將義光教會列為具有轉型正義意義的場所，加以保存維護，這是那一天賴總統的發言，臉書上都有。根據促轉會的任務總結報告，文化部應該要調查建立不義遺址，主管機關應成立審議會等等，然後才有保存，因為促轉會移交給文化部的工作就是保存不義遺址嘛。那部長應該可以肯定，保存不義遺址的話，當然要繼續調查，我知道總質詢的時候張雅琳委員也很關心這個議題，因為我們是一起開記者會的，那天部長您的回應是人權館已經在擬訂，由民間主動申請暫時替代不義遺址給予轉型正義意義場域名稱的方案，我覺得這是一個很好的開始，但是我回來查看總統的說法，我覺得您這個雖然是很好的開始，可是有點不符合總統的承諾，因為總統的意思，我們讀起來，是文化部主動要去做，文化部要啟動審議的程序，那你那邊就會變成說，人權會去訂出辦法，讓民間自己來提，我是覺得民間已經受挫了，義光教會好不容易整合他們的意見，主動對臺北市文化局提出申請，在這個時候，我覺得依照賴總統公開的發言，文化部應該要主動，不知道部長有沒有讀過促轉會的總結報告中關於不義遺址的那一章？就是文化部被交接的工作，有沒有？"],["李部長遠：有，那一段是我們的工作，對！。"],["范委員雲：裡面就講得非常清楚，為什麼一開始的時候沒有義光教會？是因為當時是以公有的財產為主，如果根據那個報告書，就是所謂的大量不幸發生的時候，這個大量也有包含對社會影響甚鉅的案件，基本上就是，以我們對促轉會的報告來講的話，義光教會完全符合這個意義，它對整個社會對我們民主化的過程有關鍵的影響，因為是社會矚目的案件，甚至是國際矚目。既然促轉會的報告都有這個部分了，那部長是不是可以承諾主動促成這件事？不要再等，萬一義光教會沒有來申請呢？是不是能夠更積極主動一點？"],["李部長遠：我們主動找過義光教會，我們剛才講到要民間來申請，是因為當年的不義遺址有一個規定，就是公有的場所我們可以去設定，私人的場所我們不能強迫，私人的場所要私人來申請，要經過同意，我們才能設，用同樣的法條，我們沒辦法強迫他設，所以當總統講完那個之後，我們人權館就主動去見了義光教會，是不是請我們的人權館館長跟你報告？"],["范委員雲：簡短就好，因為我待會還有另外一題。所以你們已經主動接觸義光教會了？"],["洪館長世芳：有，我們已經接觸義光教會了。"],["范委員雲：那這個審議的程序是不是能夠專案處理，儘快好嗎？"],["洪館長世芳：我們會主動來協助跟輔導。"],["范委員雲：好，那大概多久的時間內會有結果呢？審議的結果會出來。"],["洪館長世芳：以我們現在跟他們溝通的過程，事實上，他們對於這樣的做法還沒有一個共識出來。"],["范委員雲：就是如何保存，如何讓這個空間更能彰顯轉型的正義。"],["洪館長世芳：我們會主動來協助、會積極輔導。"],["范委員雲：既然你們已經接觸了，一個月內給我一個報告，好嗎？"],["洪館長世芳：好，沒問題。"],["范委員雲：希望能夠儘速確定不義遺址的地位，或者是具轉型正義意義的地位，好嗎？"],["洪館長世芳：好。OK。"],["范委員雲：好，OK。","部長，剛剛是問他一個月內給我報告，這件事情3個月內應該可以確定吧？"],["李部長遠：確定掛牌嗎？"],["范委員雲：就是確定義光教會是否具有轉型正義意義的一個官方的身分地位。"],["李部長遠：當初其實他想要跟政府爭取的是不義遺址，那政府把它退回來之後……"],["范委員雲：是臺北市文化局？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["范委員雲：不是政府，是臺北市文化局。"],["李部長遠：文化局退回來的時候，我們的確沒有通過不義遺址條例嘛。"],["范委員雲：對，但是你們還是可以繼續審定啊，對不對？"],["李部長遠：審定是正在進行的事，但是掛上不義遺址這件事情，如果這個條例沒有通過的話，我們只好另外想一個方式，就是總統說的那個……"],["范委員雲：轉型正義意義。"],["李部長遠：以具有轉型正義場域的這個名稱取代，但還是無法完全取代不義遺址，所以這方面我們還要和他們溝通。"],["范委員雲：部長，本席先打岔一下。其實詳讀那個部分就會發現，並沒有排除專法沒有通過就不能使用這個名稱，這個部分你們的法務人員可以去了解一下，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是，好。"],["范委員雲：先這樣。這件事三個月內可以定案吧？"],["李部長遠：三個月內給你一份報告。"],["范委員雲：好，OK，希望文化部儘快實現總統的承諾。第二個部分，本席想先請問文資局，你應該知道本席要問什麼事吧？本席覺得不能接受的事情是，去年3月我們就揭露，這15年來李姓狼師在戲曲學院性侵多名學生，您知道這件事的嚴重程度吧？是性侵耶！而且這是調查確立的，2024年6月戲曲學院就把他解聘，終身不能再聘為教師，可是至今他仍在客家戲曲界活躍，多次參與漢陽北管劇團的演出。","漢陽北管劇團長年受到文化資產局的補助，今年2月，戲曲學院的學生受洪姓校友邀請參加客家電視台節目演出，排練當天才知道是李師帶領。關於這部分，本席要先說一下文資局的部分，本席開記者會前就給你們空間和機會，因為我們並不是要找你們麻煩，可是在記者會之前，文資局給本席的回答是沒有，漢陽北管劇團告訴你們，他沒有參與任何相關活動。記者會後，你們給本席的資料改口了，說他沒有參與你們補助的活動。所以第一次是漢陽北管劇團說謊？還是你們在包庇他們？可不可以說明一下？"],["陳局長濟民：委員，經過上次的記者會之後，我們大概做了幾個動作，第一個，我們3月20日有發文給劇團，昨天也特別找團長當面面談。"],["范委員雲：那你現在可不可以說……"],["陳局長濟民：就在一個多小時以前，劇團已經正式在臉書上發布聲明書，他們是說……"],["范委員雲：本席簡單的問，你們第一次問漢陽北管劇團的時候，他們是不是說謊？你們第一次給本席的回復，就是他完全沒有參與任何活動，後來改成沒有參與你們補助的活動，意思就是說，那些活動他有參加，只不過那不是你們補助的活動。所以你們第一次給本席的資訊，就在本席開記者會之前，當時他們說謊，但是你們不知道，本席是好心，所以才說你們不知道。"],["陳局長濟民：這是他們給我們的資訊，大概不是很清楚。"],["范委員雲：本席現在問您，他們第一次回復的時候是不是說謊？"],["陳局長濟民：可能是他們表示的方式有問題，我們不敢確認他們是不是刻意的，還是他們在……"],["范委員雲：他們不是刻意說謊？所以他們有說謊，只是你不知道是不是刻意的？"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["范委員雲：本席要說的是這麼重大的事件，還是一個性侵犯，而且是業界都知道的，立委召開記者會前還先詢問你們、給你們空間，但漢陽北管劇團卻對你們掩飾事實，之後你們有沒有問過他們，當時為什麼沒有告訴我們實情？您知道這件事情嗎？因為本席今天質詢前又向你們要資料了。他們有沒有給你一個解釋？為什麼第一次不給你們真實、完整的資訊？沒有喔？您到現在都不知道？請關切喔！","如果黃子佼從此不能上節目的話，這一位是性侵犯，而且還涉及十幾名學生，這件事情是非常嚴重的，好嗎？如果漢陽北管劇團對你們說謊，只是不讓他參加受你們補助的活動，卻讓他在別的活動上台表演，本席認為漢陽北管劇團在倫理上，或是就性別平等價值而言，真的不值得拿到公家的資源補助。是不是可以請您去調查、了解一下他們為什麼說謊？好不好？"],["陳局長濟民：好的。"],["范委員雲：因為時間的緣故，接下來談客家電視台的部分，您的身分是？"],["向台長盛言：委員好，我是台長。"],["范委員雲：你有沒有看到那天客家電視台的人，我們邀請他來參加記者會，還有他當天說的話？"],["向台長盛言：有。"],["范委員雲：不知道你們是不是特地找一個不會說話的人來參加記者會，讓執政黨的立委覺得非常難堪，因為他好像完全聽不懂我們在說什麼，為什麼不找一個了解狀況的人來參加？他分明就是在迴避有沒有參與排練的事實。今天質詢前，你們給本席的資料也是完全迴避，我們問的是，根據人本基金會對戲曲學院所做的調查，有四名學生接到校友邀請，當天才知道是到李師家。","這裡說的是排練，但你們和本席玩文字遊戲，因為今天公視幫他背書，客家電視台的調查是說沒有參加角色演出，我們說的是排練耶！你們卻在玩文字遊戲，說他沒有演出，沒有掛名工作人員，你覺得本席是在和你們玩文字遊戲嗎？台長，你有沒有看過你們給本席的公文？你覺得這樣的公文品質可以嗎？"],["向台長盛言：確實，在那一天的記者會之後，我們同步採取三個比較主要的行動，除了聽劇團的說法，因為我們不排除它有不是事實的可能，所以我們協同公視的法務人員到他們說的排練地點實地場勘，同時也和三個主要關鍵人物當面面談，包括團長、製作人，還有記者會上提到的洪姓老師，從早上9點到12點，就在3月15日這一天。我們也接續用公文的方式，協請臺灣戲曲學院以及教育部協助調查。"],["范委員雲：本席知道你們都在公文往返啦！你們有沒有問他，到底有沒有讓學生和性侵狼師李師排練？就這麼簡單的事實陳述，他們說沒有，是不是？"],["向台長盛言：我們透過公文的方式詢問，也確實收到回函，不僅有臺灣梨園戲劇坊的回函，還有當時的導演以及排練的老師……"],["范委員雲：你們只能和他們公文往返嗎？不能問他有沒有參與排練？"],["向台長盛言：有，我們有問他。"],["范委員雲：他說沒有？"],["向台長盛言：這是我們收到的資訊。因為目前沒有辦法用單方資訊做驗證，所以我們請教育部協助，或許他們那邊有比較多可以協助我們的地方。"],["范委員雲：召委站起來了，本席不想浪費大家時間。部長，你聽到他們的調查品質了，不知道為什麼只能用公文往返，而且公文都在迴避事實，只會說沒有做別的事。其實公文已經呈現很危險的資料，就是讓那位主角去和李師請教身段等等，但內容寫的不清不楚，也可能是本席的中文不夠好，看不懂到底有沒有碰面。又說之後只有通電話，那之前呢？為什麼要玩這種文字遊戲？這就是你們的調查品質。","文化部長，台長本身的性別平等訓練顯然不足，剛剛那位是文資局長嘛！也顯然不夠重視這件事。這是性侵十幾名戲曲學院的學生，被列為終身不得聘任的老師，竟然能讓下面的人這樣糊弄大家，浪費本席的時間。我們去年就揭爆這件事情，今年又和郭昱晴委員等三個立委提出來，今天本席再度質詢，還是沒有辦法得到答案，對於你們不夠重視這件事情，我們真的非常失望。","本席相信部長應該不了解這件事情，但是部長，可不可以給本席一份檢討報告？為什麼一個案子要花我們這麼多時間？他是性侵十幾名學生的狼師耶！部長，可以給本席一份檢討報告嗎？"],["李部長遠：公共電視董事會成立一個……"],["范委員雲：本席知道他們正在調查，可是這個過程真的讓人失望。"],["李部長遠：我會去了解，然後給您一份報告。"],["范委員雲：多久之內可以給本席一份檢討報告？以文化部的名義給本席一份檢討報告，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：OK，好，沒問題。"],["范委員雲：兩個月？還是一個月？部長。"],["李部長遠：兩個月好嗎？"],["范委員雲：好，兩個月。謝謝召委。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，部長請回。","接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159723","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9008f4701a34f8db4441a80f058510e45ac9b62a44c83059aafe5f61c5647d20dc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:06:40 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意在沛公本席強烈的建議趕快弄清楚過去150餘年令人的美國總統發動的關稅戰跟貿易戰美國也曾發動對西班牙戰爭奪取古巴關島菲律賓當時也涉及的關稅政策1929年經濟大蕭條以及涉及的關稅"},{"start":177.074,"end":198.143,"text":"我想1970年的越戰私有危機也涉及到關稅最具參考的1985廣場協議更是值得在座各部會詳加了解要講到1985的廣場協議在上個會期本席就跟楊金榮總裁還提到他還謝謝我要提醒他這樣過程因為他沒有想過這樣的問題"},{"start":199.463,"end":214.998,"text":"我倒覺得央行總裁是整個戰略團隊最佳的一個隊長人選所以希望這樣子的一個整個籌組的團隊能夠趕快成型在座各位我想你們都是典型的公務人員"},{"start":216.019,"end":238.826,"text":"你們的思維跟習慣我覺得在這個部分上我們沒有要批評但是我們希望在面對詭譎多變的21世紀以及川普擔任美國總統以後他的思維到底我們能不能跟得上我們要怎麼樣去引引這個部分我們希望在這個部分我們應該加強的來涉掠那副總裁"},{"start":241.291,"end":245.234,"text":"謝謝委員的建議離我們比較最近的是廣場會議那一段時間其實剛好台灣的經濟狀況是不錯的台幣升值等等那如果我們再回顧現在的趨勢我們有做了一些國際經濟環境跟國內相關的一些競爭力分析我相信我們總裁如果在這邊一定也是對"},{"start":269.632,"end":295.214,"text":"台灣在這個部分他有信心好今天我們就是提醒就是提醒就是擔憂居安思維我想也要請教財政部到時汽車業剛剛委員也有在提汽車業農業還有其他產業被迫降低關稅的時候稅損的估計出來了嗎剛剛好像有部會回答說這個稅損這部分有沒有什麼樣的回答"},{"start":297.597,"end":303.091,"text":"第一個確定的一個資訊並沒有第二個是否調降關稅這個部分我們相信"},{"start":303.564,"end":332.294,"text":"我們的經貿辦公室在前線的時候會做相關的協商我相信我國的代表一定是據理力爭來協助嘛但是問題是美國願不願意現在我們不能夠期許是對手來釋出善意啊我們要有一定的準備整個稅損的估算以及因此產生的財政收支的缺口是否準備規劃好了嘛"},{"start":334.254,"end":359.964,"text":"再來對於產業的衝擊對我所知道我去問過產業包括一些本土車業他們也對於這個進口關稅如果降低的話他們很多的擔憂啊再來我要再講的是還有那個進口的相關的鋼業 柴業這些的鋼柴業我們要怎麼樣去幫忙他們爭取更多的一些他們的權益還有最重要的是我們一直在講的汽機車貨物稅希望能夠調降產業也都支持"},{"start":360.484,"end":387.17,"text":"那現在又要面臨國外的一個進口關稅的降低我們產業現在又一直在不斷的告訴我們可以去降低我們的氣氣車貨物稅面臨這麼多層的危機我希望財政部應該好好的考量整個稅損的規劃估算這個部分委員您的各項說明我們都了解我相信我們各部會都是整體都會在做規劃的好 謝謝謝謝羅恩的諮詢 下一位請楊瓊英委諮詢 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那我請兩位次長好 請兩位次長"},{"start":14.191,"end":38.532,"text":"我先問這個勞動部啊現在你說育嬰是在家裡六個月嘛他剛才說六個月嘛六個月是多少薪水?是投保薪資?平均投保薪資六成然後我們勞動部還要補助公務預算補助兩成總共八成所以等於是投保薪資的八成領六個月六個月"},{"start":40.515,"end":59.586,"text":"先生領完 太太領 兩個輪流可以嗎也可以 也可以同時工保的也是這樣嗎 公務人員也是這樣嗎公務人員這個可能要 這不是我們勞動部管的但是公務人員的福利向來是比勞工要好一點這可能要問主管機關"},{"start":61.431,"end":70.973,"text":"那現在你說又加一個月是什麼東西也是六個月 歐元也是六個月也是六個月 也是投保薪資的八成 也是這樣嗎還是全新"},{"start":72.711,"end":99.862,"text":"公保是用他們的本縫本縫不是頭髮型是本縫本縫加專業加幾這本縫啦對那你剛剛說又加一個月是什麼意思就我們現在準備要就業保險法要修法因為我們現在就業保險法是法定是六個月法律規定六個月那我們勞動部在110年7月修定了一個我們的補助要點用公務預算補兩個月所以6加2加起來現在是那個"},{"start":102.204,"end":123.337,"text":"八成你後來說六個月之後又給他一個月是第七個月是不是我們準備要修法就是再包一個月那廖偉強委員說希望提高到八個月是嗎廖委員是有這樣提那就來修法吧弄成一年不是更好嗎"},{"start":126.326,"end":142.419,"text":"跟蘇委員說明我們剛剛有講我們就業保險法因為劉庭今天的本意主要的政策目標是希望幫助這些新手幫他不要因為照顧嬰兒而離開職場我們的本意還是希望他回到職場但是根據我們過去這連續7年的追蹤調查大數據 我們是大數據分析發現其實"},{"start":149.224,"end":175.756,"text":"有大概回歸職場大概平均只有82%啦有18%是沒有回歸職場啦那這當然有很多原因所以我們現在老實說內部在討論就是說如果你一下子延長太多太時間太一下延長太久會不會讓這一個回歸職場的那個機率再下降一點我們要求一個平衡啦水收就不敢回來啦是啦是啦好"},{"start":177.817,"end":180.979,"text":"那再來我請我們衛務部 律師長我給你一個問比較大的啦 為什麼現在年輕人不可以帶貨 不可以生孩子啊大家都在市高啊 市高啊 有人在市中心啊 還是在三藝署啊市高啊 市中心啊 市廠房的開銷如果這麼大呢 千萬不可以收"},{"start":204.588,"end":222.158,"text":"那到底是怎樣報告委員這個我以前在中中大學我開過這樣的課那委員報告2000年人口學者有一個最重要的研究是population studies2000年他是用OECD24國去做相關研究我說結論就好結論就是說"},{"start":224.942,"end":249.257,"text":"這個你要解決少子化原因是這樣因為就是說工業社會女性女性她受教育程度提高提高之後她一定要進入職場進入職場之後就會發生蠟燭兩頭燒的那個現象所以這是全世界的問題我如果有人報告瑞典跟歐洲事實上在1970的時候曾經他的TFR就是所謂的總生育率也曾經降到大概1.4左右1.4"},{"start":250.618,"end":275.392,"text":"後來經過一個整個瑞典他們那邊整個總體的一個研究的一個努力之後1970到1995年左右又回到1.8本來是1.4增加0.4很不容易因為OECD那個研究最重要就是我剛才有回覆說四個重點第一個男女性別必須平等"},{"start":276.463,"end":300.931,"text":"這是最重要的啦 第二 最好的是工作家庭平衡就是你有辦法比較輕鬆去做家事 做家事等等這些台灣男女的地位是女性比我們高 我們在我們家女性很高我們在醫院裡面也是女性很高 我們都叫美生的"},{"start":301.491,"end":326.817,"text":"沒有啦 因為我想說 其實如果說第三有效的就是那些child care 兒童照顧 最後其實才是津貼他有研究的說 這要採取多元的策略 多元措施所以這是OECD國家 他們現在普遍研究出來大概就這四個重點 但是要多元但是如果每一位都像委員這麼優秀 我想就掩蓋沒問題啦"},{"start":328.951,"end":343.404,"text":"我們第八屆立委的時候要涉及長照服務法那我帶了一大票的人包括場官學然後到日本去那個時候林叔沒有去那一孫在北海那一孫"},{"start":345.049,"end":369.163,"text":"我去日本的時候 日本的後生省 什麼省都出來說還有我們的駐日大使 沈思純 都安排得很好那個時候日本就講說 他們預計到2050年他們的人口會從一億兩千六百萬 會降到七千萬那七千萬的話 他們就變成二流的國家"},{"start":370.203,"end":388.898,"text":"所以那個時候他們整個卯足全力整個首相辦公室都成立委員會啊危機小組啊然後開始砸錢好像有一點點起色我不曉得日本現在的生意力差不多多少那位記者說大概1.2 1.3左右吧"},{"start":390.643,"end":414.272,"text":"台灣是大概0.89所以日本這個是有效的啊他們是卯足全力喔所以他們的人口我看到現在還是一億兩千多萬如果能升到1.24的話當然是還是會少啦那個時候我去的時候剛好他日本一年"},{"start":415.601,"end":420.491,"text":"死掉的人死了一百零幾萬然後出生九十幾萬那現在"},{"start":424.468,"end":447.203,"text":"台灣去年死了將近二十萬生了十三萬所以會出事了所以這個很嚴重啊那現在我們的外籍的配偶外籍的新住民還有外籍勞工都變成我們的補充人力這個是很危險的事情所以我們現在台灣這裡也沒有主責單位也沒有在搶救"},{"start":450.845,"end":474.019,"text":"我是覺得很糟糕餵物部你自己要扛起來還有勞動部好像今天講一講我今天從早上聽到現在好像本來還有一個行政院的辦公室現在連辦公室都沒了剩下一個陳時中政委在負責這樣是很危險是不是該要振作起來不然的話現在0.8 0.9"},{"start":476.789,"end":494.476,"text":"很嚴重耶我是以生四個 我太太生四個小孩 我不會生啦我生四個 我覺得對國家很有交代了兒子生了兩個 我叫他再生啦 不生啦他說去不去啦所以這是很嚴肅的問題所以這個要搶救 當然砸錢啦 那個就是很重要啦"},{"start":501.318,"end":521.885,"text":"那像這種 我剛剛提這個提案這個像公托 准公托 這個都很重要 這是配套嘛讓年輕人敢承擔啦所以這個我是覺得 部長 次長 你都要看不懂要怎麼 要怎麼看部長要怎麼處理一下 好不好好 感謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1247,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時54分）請兩位次長。"],["主席：請兩位次長。"],["蘇委員清泉：我先問勞動部，剛才你說在家育嬰是6個月？"],["李次長健鴻：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：6個月是領多少薪水？是領投保薪資……"],["李次長健鴻：平均投保薪資的六成，還有勞動部公務預算補助的二成，總共是八成。"],["蘇委員清泉：等於是投保薪資的八成，領6個月？"],["李次長健鴻：6個月。"],["蘇委員清泉：先生領完太太領，兩個人輪流可以嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：可以，也可以同時。"],["蘇委員清泉：公保也是這樣嗎？公務人員也是這樣嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：公務人員的部分不是我們勞動部主管，但是公務人員的福利向來比勞工好一點，這個可能要問主管機關。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在你說又加1個月是什麼意思？"],["李次長健鴻：公務人員也是6個月。"],["蘇委員清泉：也是投保薪資的八成？是這樣嗎？或是全薪？"],["李次長健鴻：公保是用他們的本俸，不是投保薪資，而是本俸。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是本俸啦！"],["李次長健鴻：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛你說又加1個月是什麼意思？"],["李次長健鴻：我們現在準備要修就業保險法，因為就業保險法法定是6個月，法律規定是6個月，而我們勞動部在110年7月訂定了補助要點，以公務預算補助二成，所以現在是八成。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛你說6個月之後又再加1個月，所以是第七個月嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我們準備要修法。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是再補助1個月？"],["李次長健鴻：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：廖偉翔委員希望能提高到8個月？"],["李次長健鴻：剛剛廖委員是有提出這樣的想法。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，那就來修法吧！弄成1年不是更好嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我們就業保險法育嬰留停津貼的本意、主要的政策目標是希望幫助這些新手爸媽不要因為照顧嬰兒而離開職場，我們的本意還是希望他們能回到職場。"],["蘇委員清泉：對。"],["李次長健鴻：但是根據過去連續七年的追蹤調查，採取大數據的分析，發現回歸職場的平均大概只有82%，有18%並未回歸職場，其中當然有很多的原因，但是我們內部正在討論，如果一下延長時間太久，是否會讓回歸職場的機率再下降，所以我們要求一個平衡。"],["蘇委員清泉：生疏就不敢回來了。"],["李次長健鴻：是啦！是啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：再來要請教衛福部的呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：蘇委員，你好。"],["蘇委員清泉：問你一個比較大的問題，為什麼現在的年輕人不願意結婚、不願意生子？大家都寧可養狗養貓，甚至還有人養老鼠，這是什麼意思？養狗養貓養寵物的開銷也很大，其實並不便宜耶！到底是怎麼樣啊？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我以前在中正大學開過這樣的課，2000年的時候，人口學者針對OECD的24國做了很重要的相關研究，population studies，我講結論就好，因為工業社會女性受教育的程度提高，提高之後他一定要進入職場，進入職場之後就會發生蠟燭兩頭燒的現象，這是全世界的問題。報告委員，瑞典與歐洲在1970年的TFR，也就是總生育率，曾經降到大約1.4左右，經過整個瑞典的努力之後，1970年到1995年左右又回到1.8，從本來的1.4要增加0.4其實是相當不容易。","OECD的研究有四個重點，第一個，男女性別必須平等，這是最重要的；第二個，最有效的是工作及家庭平衡，也就是有辦法早點回家做家事之類的。"],["蘇委員清泉：臺灣的男女地位是女性比我們高耶！在我們家女性地位很高，在我們的醫院裡也是女性地位很高，我們都是被罵著玩耶！"],["呂次長建德：第三個就是child care兒童照顧，最後其實才是津貼。他們的研究認為必須要採取多元策略、多元措施，OECD國家研究出來的大概就是這四個重點，必須要能夠多元，但是如果每位都能像委員這樣優秀，我認為應該就沒問題了。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們在第8屆立委任期時要制定長照服務法，當時我帶了包括產官學的一大票人去日本，那個時候林淑芬沒有去。在我們到達日本之後，他們的厚生省、什麼省的官員都出席說明，我們的駐日大使沈斯淳都安排得很好。那時候日本就說預計2050年人口將從1億2,600萬人降到7,000萬人。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：人口降至7,000萬人，他們就會變成二流的國家，因此那時候他們整個卯足全力，包括首相辦公室成立委員會、危機小組，開始砸錢，好像有一點點起色，我不知道現在日本的生育率是多少？"],["呂次長建德：大概是1.2、1.3左右吧！臺灣大概是0.89。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以日本的努力是有效的啊！他們是卯足全力喔！到現在他們的人口還是一億二千多萬人，只降低了一點點。如果能夠上升到1.24的話，當然還是會少啦！"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我去的時候，日本一年的死亡人數是一百零幾萬人，出生人數是九十幾萬人，然而臺灣去年的死亡人數將近20萬人，出生人數只有13萬人，所以這個問題很嚴重啊！現在我們的外籍配偶、外籍新住民、外籍勞工都變成我們的補充人力，這是很危險的事情。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在臺灣既沒主責單位，也沒搶救作為，我是覺得很糟糕耶！衛福部，你們自己要扛起來吧！還有勞動部！今天從早上聽到現在，本來還有一個行政院辦公室，現在連辦公室都沒了，剩下一個陳時中政委負責，這樣很危險耶！是不是該要振作起來？不然現在只有0.8、0.9，很嚴重耶！"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我太太生了4個小孩，我覺得對國家很有交代了！我的兒子生了2個小孩就不願意再生，因為他認為養不起了。這是很嚴肅的問題，一定要搶救、要砸錢，這些都很重要。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：像我剛剛的提案，公托及準公托都是很重要的配套，讓年輕人敢於承擔。次長，你們看跨部會該如何好好的處理一下，好嗎？"],["呂次長建德：是，感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：接續請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9007c50cb2009d5db7f1e62e9fce1db2a039b62a44c83059aafb44aa4b1a787b5ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:56:40 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金雞仙那部長這樣子喔其實八個布袋戲的人物啊無形的文化資產那當然我坦白講連我要回答的時候有時候都非常的吃緊包括台底下大家一起聽到那我要講的是說今天答對"},{"start":198.841,"end":223.739,"text":"沒有得分答錯也不應該有處罰但是我們要講的是背後的一個含義我們希望在面臨現階段布袋戲的一個成長一直在緊縮30歲以下的年輕人搞不好還沒看過布袋戲但是我覺得布袋戲在台灣來說是一個非常重要的在整個粉絲跟客群一直在減少藝術傳承也都出現了斷層"},{"start":225.04,"end":250.048,"text":"那以及傳統記憶面臨消失的風險我們應該來共同的來努力但是我們要看到在台灣布袋戲竟然竟然竟然在日本是成長的台灣與日本在合作的這個東離劍遊記吸引了大批日本人關注布袋戲部長日本反而比台灣更關注布袋戲"},{"start":250.788,"end":256.57,"text":"那台灣作為這個布袋戲最重要的一個文化標誌我們該怎麼辦您覺得呢"},{"start":257.54,"end":282.607,"text":"我覺得我們回到本土文化裡面像歌仔戲跟布袋戲是絕對絕對第一重要所以我們在文化部其實我們有支持在雲林蓋了一個布袋部的傳習中心然後我們自己很多計畫是包括補助很多團體包括兒童團體裡面的繼續延續布袋戲的表演譬如說雲林有個"},{"start":283.647,"end":307.71,"text":"藝文教育扎根計畫我們就大概補助了3840萬所以像這個東西我以為你講的非常重要因為我剛剛跟你講這些人的名字的時候其實我童年我在萬華長大我每天上學就看到布偶的製作布偶怎麼製作怎麼畫臉怎麼畫臉怎麼做衣服他絕對是一個我們全力要推廣的"},{"start":307.99,"end":335.874,"text":"也是你成長過程的一個經歷對不對所以可以認同一起來幫布袋戲再繼續的扎根推廣那當然我沒有說你沒有補助我們都知道文化部在這個部分的不管是無形的文化資產以及我們傳統的記憶是有在努力的可是我要講的是說部長在你成長的時代一群學生興起創作民歌改變了國語這一個樂壇的一個制式化"},{"start":336.795,"end":340.526,"text":"現在民歌傳唱50年了你自己有沒有自己很熟悉的民歌"},{"start":342.823,"end":367.716,"text":"我寫過民歌我寫的最有名的一個民歌叫做跨父追日是李建復唱的跨父追日然後我寫過很多民歌跟陳陽合作是所以我是一個我沒聽過啊因為我可能對我來說可能是橄欖樹啊所以我因為年齡差太多所以你剛剛問我對民歌熟不熟其實我就是民歌創作者謝謝你好險你沒有考我民歌不然應該我也會像你那樣因為我實在太老了所以"},{"start":368.496,"end":387.766,"text":"但是我要講的是說民歌傳上50年政府在補助流行音樂的時候或許也都一直在努力的在民歌的推廣那也都有補助民歌但是聽眾如果老了我們是不是就應該要放棄這個其實讓民眾去有一個很大的一個反思那文化部沒有放棄"},{"start":389.146,"end":405.059,"text":"應該一起繼續努力但是我們要講的是不只是給予補助如何在教育的部分不要失去這個寶貴的偶戲一個文化布袋戲的一個扎根教育以及從國小 國中 高中要怎麼來做不只是文化的保存剛剛你說有這個管項嘛"},{"start":407.24,"end":420.095,"text":"那我們在這個文化的教育要怎麼樣來加強我想強調的是教育體系對布袋戲的一個傳承重要性而不是把布袋戲當作是短期的或者是活動式的或者是單純觀賞的我覺得這個都不夠長久如何創造一個在現在21世紀新的文化"},{"start":425.822,"end":450.668,"text":"但是是傳統的技藝我覺得在這一次日本跟台灣合作的東離建郵寄它去達到了這樣的效果所以讓日本的這個年輕人開始重視那我們是不是一起能夠來開始規劃來這個部分文化部加一點力呢我非常贊成因為我們總是要選擇幾個屬於我們台灣自己特有的文化來其實某部分來說我覺得你也算是教育者啊我師範大學畢業"},{"start":453.925,"end":482.612,"text":"我們曾經在坐這個指風車保麗回家這個故事也是你寫的啊我寫過蠻多童話故事這部也是在教育我們的孩子對那如何將這個傳統記憶現在我要提到的能夠也變成一個教育變成是一個文化的教育這部分我希望教育部不只是砸錢那能不能在體制上或者是在具體的政策上讓傳統記憶能夠被看到這個我們一起加油可以嗎可以啊"},{"start":484.76,"end":504.178,"text":"另外我要跟部長再探討的是這個央廣涉嫌這個炸零我想在前立委這個前因後果其實您大概都知道啦前立委李德維曾質詢這個央廣炸零的一個爭議那時任的文化部長李永德呢也表示不滿意央廣現在的行政調查因此"},{"start":504.818,"end":527.995,"text":"外聘會計事務所做查核並承諾最終交給這個報告給立法院然而現在這些報告被列為了機密文件最終會送到立法院我想部長我想請問你這個文化部對於央廣調查的報告列為機密的決策是否知情文化部身為督導的單位有沒有去了解所有的狀況"},{"start":532.915,"end":559.995,"text":"因為這件事情真的隔滿久的我知道之後我是開始了解整個過程是那在文化部的立場是很快的就要求第三方去調查調查出來發現有問題之後直接送檢調所以這個東西還在檢調單位在查然後當時的文化部2021年開始有要求央管改進內通制度還有會計查核制度有建立一個比較完善的透明的檢查方法"},{"start":561.116,"end":579.032,"text":"2021到現在我想改善蠻多的改善蠻多的那這一份報告我剛剛說的齁您作為文化部長督導單位齁你看起來有去了解了但是我們都知道這個案件被列為機密案件這個合理嗎你是否會督促央廣去解除這個機密的等級並依法"},{"start":579.312,"end":595.913,"text":"提供報告送交立法院供國人供所有立法委員來瞭解這份報告的調查是國家補助資金的流向我先再講這個是內部有無福報跟貪污的情勢並不是國防外交國安事項"},{"start":597.074,"end":624.435,"text":"如果今天是國防外交國安事項我可以尊重我覺得你去使用機密資料處理辦法來規避現階段根本不屬於國安事項的話我覺得部長您的態度是要不要公佈他已經公佈了就是有關您剛才講的比較那個國安的東西我想他已經解除了他已經正式對外全部公佈全部嗎前幾天的新聞前幾天的新聞還有報出來喔"},{"start":626.559,"end":648.89,"text":"這個我是不是請董事長跟你解釋因為我們董事長在現場好跟委員報告這個資料呢調查報告在去各自去識別化之後向所有關心的委員都公布了那前幾天新聞你有看到嗎看到了那您覺得呢我們覺得非常的遺憾針對過去曾經有"},{"start":651.903,"end":680.262,"text":"不妥的情況 我們實在是 您大聲一點好嗎 對不起好的 我個人對過去曾經有過的不妥的行為非常的遺憾但是也必須向委員報告在這幾年當中已經完全改善而且現在文化部針對這個案子還在管控當中我們是每年用放大鏡在做檢視是不是改善那目前為止沒有新的情況"},{"start":680.982,"end":696.176,"text":"所以我相信英廣現在是一個很認真負責的在對待這件事情董事長我無意刁難喔但是這些資料都是人民的辛苦納稅錢那有涉嫌這樣子的一個狀況國人都很關心我們都說錢很重要"},{"start":696.736,"end":722.898,"text":"剛剛每個委員都在關注不管所提到的相關預算問題我想預算不外乎要監督那現在有這樣子的涉嫌有可能乍臨甚至是福報的一個狀況你們內部也有調查過的確是有這樣子的遺憾所以你說很遺憾嘛對不對所以在面臨這樣子的高度檢視跟監督的時候是有其必要性的對吧是好謝謝那我想所有的資料應該都要坦誠報告啦那最後我想請問一下這個部長"},{"start":724.431,"end":749.07,"text":"部長對於文化部我們上次在審預算的時候這個國漫館還記得嗎國漫館我們在審理這樣子的總共五千萬的一個預算的時候最後凍結是五百萬那當時我們所提到不外乎幾個事項我所關注的第一國漫館到底現在所面臨到的就是無障礙措施以及跟台灣漫畫家的合作以及文創"},{"start":750.191,"end":777.265,"text":"能夠進駐更多的一些廠商甚至是比照更多年輕時下大家對於國漫或者是日本韓國的漫畫相關的銷售模式我說的是銷售模式那還有最重要的是休憩空間的改善當時也獲得許多不是我們同黨同志也都一起來戰下因為大家覺得所謂的無障礙非常重要"},{"start":777.805,"end":790.376,"text":"那現在已經有凍結預算了那目前國慢館有沒有準備要來送審凍結解凍那目前無障礙的改善以及我們所當時建議的進度如何"},{"start":791.516,"end":814.986,"text":"我最近去看的感覺是他完全已經改善這個無障礙然後最近我覺得國漫館做的活動跟過去比起來是非常多包括日本的議員古路歸斯他帶著幾個議員還來參觀國漫館想知道台灣的國家怎麼去建立一個漫畫中心我們當初很快的蓋好這個之後"},{"start":815.886,"end":842.452,"text":"內部的調整您剛剛講的所有的問題都是對的就是我們要怎麼樣去增加展覽空間我們怎麼去保存文物我們怎麼去推廣我們的漫畫這個我們一直在加緊腳步在做上次還有講休憩包括很多的一些親子家庭來到休憩空間的不足還有我們說到的是有所謂的扭蛋的方式去呈現的銷售模式或者是文創的入住其實在當下我們都有提到"},{"start":842.992,"end":858.12,"text":"那我們希望的是都希望國慢能夠更好以及國慢館的一個設施運作的時候能夠能有所提升那我要講的是說如果剛剛你所說的你們都準備好了也都有改善了我覺得這個部分的解凍案部長"},{"start":858.78,"end":874.387,"text":"您有預計什麼時候可以面臨這樣子的一個解凍案可以趕快送神嗎當然如果你有意願你也準備好了我們自己也有趙偉啊我們也可以跟趙偉講希望他排案啊來幫忙協助啊那這部分你已經準備好了嗎我問問看你準備了嗎可以啊"},{"start":876.912,"end":897.071,"text":"其實剛才回到解凍案的問題我們個別個別都在朝著要解凍的那個東西在寫那我剛才有解釋過解凍的理由還有我們要寫的過程為什麼我們有點猶豫因為我們前面在審預算的過程中我的經驗很怕再被羞辱一次"},{"start":899.195,"end":924.674,"text":"我想用羞辱這個言詞非常的嚴厲但沒關係我們都是希望這個國家好我們都希望國慢管能夠更好相信你自己也相信我們在對於這個監督的過程當中都是希望朝向更好的一個方向我想在基本上我剛剛所講的就是很簡單最後趙偉要站起來了對於無障礙空間的一個改善對於休憩空間的一個改善對於台灣的漫畫家"},{"start":926.815,"end":950.589,"text":"的合作能夠有更多元甚至是二手漫畫的交流以及銷售方式的文創能夠更加的入住這個部分是當然見仁見智但是如果有朝向這個方向我們都希望能夠朝這個方向來努力的時候就是樂觀其成我們會來協助但是我覺得不需要去擔憂嘛那這個部分一起來努力可以嗎"},{"start":951.129,"end":971.636,"text":"我覺得羅委員對我們的漫畫博物館這麼關心我非常高興因為我自己對於漫畫也充滿了覺得我們在最近的這幾年看到我們的台漫起來我心裡也非常急切我希望羅委員協助我們爭取預算還有一切一切的我們一起來做好嗎"},{"start":972.116,"end":986.646,"text":"最後十秒我們一定會協助只要您的政策是方向是對的我想這個過程中很激烈有火花但是結果是希望朝向正面的我們都是為這個國家努力為文化努力為國慢關努力一起加油謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":550,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時42分）好，謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員，你好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，想跟你探討一下文化傳承，來談布袋戲。想跟你請問一下這幾個人物，那我們一起來瞭解一下。第一個，部長，您知道這是誰嗎？"],["李部長遠：這史艷文啊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：葉小釵。"],["李部長遠：我是故意講史艷文讓你笑的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有，沒有，沒有。"],["李部長遠：因為我們年齡差太多了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有，沒有，沒有。我們探討啦，我們沒有任何去調侃的意思啦。一起探討，一起加油。","第二個是誰？剛剛底下的人好像有滿多共鳴，是你們都知道嗎？那第二個，請部長回答。"],["李部長遠：哈麥二齒啊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不是，不是，不是。是蔭屍人。","第三個，來，來，來。儘量回答看看，沒關係，沒關係。"],["李部長遠：太陽王啊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有太陽王這個角色嗎？我先跟你講啦，這個拿來考我，我也不知道，我自己也要坦誠，這個是業途靈。","再猜第四個。唉唷，下面有人唸出來喔。報告部長，這是非常女。","再猜第五個。這個已經是非常非常知名的。"],["李部長遠：我本來知道，我看到你，我很緊張，就忘記了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有，你不覺得今天我的氣氛就是儘可能的大家很平和嗎？"],["李部長遠：我好緊張耶。"],["羅委員廷瑋：素還真。","好，來，第六個。其實真的滿簡單的。"],["李部長遠：藏鏡人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，藏鏡人。","再來，第七個，你講過的。"],["李部長遠：哈麥二齒。"],["羅委員廷瑋：哈麥二齒。","那第八個。他算是也滿常出現的。3個字，有人打pass嗎？可以打pass，沒關係。"],["李部長遠：阿善師啊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不是阿善師，是秦假仙。","部長，其實這8個布袋戲的人物，是無形的文化資產，那當然我坦白講，連我要回答的時候，有時候都非常的吃緊，包括台底下，大家一起聽到。那我要講的是說，今天答對，沒有得分，答錯，也不應該有處罰，但是我們要講的是背後的一個含意，面臨現階段布袋戲的成長一直在緊縮，30歲以下的年輕人搞不好還沒看過布袋戲，但是我覺得布袋戲在臺灣是一個非常非常重要的，整個粉絲跟客群一直在減少，藝術傳承也都出現了斷層，傳統技藝面臨消失的風險，我們應該共同來努力，但是我們要看到，臺灣布袋戲竟然在日本是成長的，臺灣與日本合作的東離劍遊紀，吸引了大批日本人關注布袋戲，部長，日本反而比臺灣更關注布袋戲，那臺灣作為布袋戲最重要的一個文化標誌，我們該怎麼辦？您覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：我覺得我們回到本土文化裡面，像歌仔戲跟布袋戲，是絕對絕對第一重要，所以我們在文化部其實有支持在雲林蓋了一個布袋戲的傳習中心，然後我們自己有很多計畫，包括補助很多團體，包括兒童團體裡面繼續延續布袋戲的表演，譬如說，雲林有個藝文教育扎根計畫，我們就補助了3,870萬，所以委員你講的非常重要，我剛才跟你講這些人的名字的時候，其實我童年在萬華長大，我每天上學就看到布偶的製作，看布偶怎麼製作、怎麼畫臉、怎麼做衣服，布袋戲絕對是一個我們全力要推廣的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：也是你成長過程的一個經歷，對不對？"],["李部長遠：對，共同的記憶。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以可以認同一起來幫布袋戲繼續扎根推廣。那當然我沒有說你沒有補助，我們都知道，文化部在這個部分，不管是無形的文化資產，還是我們傳統的記憶，都是有在努力的，可是我要講的是說，部長，在你成長的時代，一群學生興起創作民歌，改變了國語樂壇的制式化，現在民歌傳唱50年了，你有沒有自己很熟悉的民歌？"],["李部長遠：我寫過民歌，我寫的最有名的一首叫做夸父追日，是李建復唱的，然後我寫過很多民歌，跟陳揚合作，所以我是一個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我沒聽過啊，因為對我來說，我記憶中的民歌可能是橄欖樹啊。"],["李部長遠：是，我們因為年齡差太多，所以你剛剛問我對民歌熟不熟，其實我就是民歌創作者。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝你，好險你沒有考我民歌，不然我也會像你一樣答不出來。"],["李部長遠：因為我實在太老了，所以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我要講的是，民歌傳唱50年，政府在補助流行音樂的時候，或許也都一直努力在民歌的推廣，也都有補助民歌，但是聽眾如果老了，我們是不是就應該要放棄？這個其實讓民眾有一個很大的反思，文化部沒有放棄，應該一起繼續努力，但是我們要講的是，不只是給予補助，如何在教育的部分，不要失去這個寶貴的偶戲文化，布袋戲的扎根教育，以及從國小、國中、高中要怎麼來做，不只是文化的保存，剛剛你說有這個管項，那我們在這個文化的教育要怎麼樣來加強？我想強調的是，教育體系對布袋戲的傳承的重要性，而不是把布袋戲當作是短期的，或者是活動式的，或者是單純觀賞的，我覺得這個都不夠長久，如何創造一個在現在21世紀新的文化，但是是傳統的記憶，我覺得在這一次日本跟臺灣合作的東離劍遊紀，達到了這樣的效果，讓日本的年輕人開始重視，那我們是不是能夠一起開始規劃這個部分，文化部加一點力呢？"],["李部長遠：我非常贊成，因為我們總是要選擇幾個屬於我們臺灣自己特有的文化來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：其實某部分來說，我覺得你也算是教育者啊。"],["李部長遠：我是師範大學畢業的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們曾經做紙風車劇團的「寶莉回家」，這個故事也是你寫的。"],["李部長遠：我寫過滿多童話故事。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這部也是在教育我們的孩子。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那如何將這個現在我要提到的傳統技藝，能夠也變成一個教育，變成是一個文化的教育，這個部分，我希望教育部不只是砸錢，能不能在體制上或者是在具體的政策上，讓傳統技藝能夠被看到，這個我們一起加油，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以啊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。","另外，我要跟部長再探討的是央廣涉嫌詐領，我想前因後果其實您大概都知道了，前立委李德維曾質詢有關央廣詐領的爭議，時任文化部長的李永得也表示，不滿意央廣現在的行政調查，因此外聘會計事務所做查核，並承諾最終交報告給立法院，然而現在這些報告被列為機密文件，最終未送到立法院。部長，我想請問你，文化部對於央廣調查報告列為機密的決策，是否知情？文化部身為督導的單位，有沒有去瞭解所有的狀況？"],["李部長遠：因為這件事情真的隔滿久的，我知道之後，我開始瞭解整個過程，文化部的立場是很快就要求第三方去調查，調查出來，發現有問題之後，直接送檢調，所以這個東西還是要檢調單位再查，當時的文化部從2021年開始，有要求央廣改進內控制度及會計查核制度，有建立一個比較完善、透明的檢查方法，從2021年到現在，改善滿多的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：改善滿多的。那這一份報告，我剛剛說的，您作為文化部長，是督導單位，看起來您有去瞭解了，但是我們都知道，這個案件被列為機密案件，這個合理嗎？你是否會督促央廣去解除機密的等級，並依法提供報告送交立法院，供國人、供所有的立法委員來瞭解？這份報告是調查國家補助資金的流向，我現在講，這個是內部有無浮報跟貪污的情事，並不是國防、外交、國安事項，如果今天是國防、外交、國安事項，我可以尊重，我覺得你去使用機密資料處理辦法來規避現階段根本不屬於國安事項的調查的話，部長，您的態度是要不要公布？"],["李部長遠：已經公布了。關於您剛才講的有關國安的東西，我想他們已經解除了，已經正式對外全部公布。"],["羅委員廷瑋：全部嗎？前幾天的新聞還有報出來喔。"],["李部長遠：我是不是請董事長跟你解釋？因為我們董事長在現場。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["賴董事長秀如：跟委員報告，這個資料調查報告在個資去識別化之後，向所有關心的委員都公布了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：前幾天的新聞你有看到嗎？"],["賴董事長秀如：看到了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，那您覺得呢？"],["賴董事長秀如：我們覺得非常的遺憾，針對過去曾經有不妥的情況，我們實在是非常的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不要緊張，您大聲一點，好嗎？對不起。"],["賴董事長秀如：好的，我個人對過去曾經有過的不妥行為非常的遺憾，但是也必須向委員報告，在這幾年當中已經完全改善，而且現在文化部針對這個案子還在管控當中，我們是每年用放大鏡在檢視是不是改善，到目前為止沒有新的情況，所以我相信央廣現在是很認真、負責地在對待這件事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：董事長，我無意刁難，但是這些資料都是人民的辛苦納稅錢，有涉嫌這樣子的一個狀況，國人都很關心，我們都說錢很重要，剛剛每個委員都在關注相關預算，我想預算不外乎要監督，那現在有這樣子涉嫌詐領甚至浮報的狀況，你們內部也有調查過，的確是有這樣子的遺憾，所以你說很遺憾嘛，對不對？所以在面臨這樣子的高度檢視跟監督的時候，是有其必要性的，對吧？"],["賴董事長秀如：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。那我想所有的資料應該都要坦誠報告。","最後我想請問一下部長。部長，我們上次在審預算的時候，有討論國漫館，還記得嗎？"],["李部長遠：記得。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們在審理總共5,000萬預算的時候，最後凍結數是500萬，當時我們所提到的，不外乎幾個事項，我所關注的有幾個，第一，國漫館到底現在的無障礙措施，以及跟臺灣漫畫家的合作，以及文創能夠進駐更多廠商，甚至是比照更多年輕時下大家對於國漫或日本、韓國的漫畫相關的銷售模式，還有最重要的是休憩空間的改善，當時有很多人，即使不是我們同黨同志，也都一起來「讚聲」，因為大家覺得無障礙非常重要，那現在已經有凍結預算了，目前國漫館有沒有準備要來送審，讓凍結的預算解凍？目前無障礙的改善及我們當時建議改善的部分進度如何？"],["李部長遠：我最近去看的感覺是，無障礙設施完全已經改善，然後最近我覺得國漫館做的活動跟過去比起來是多非常多，包括古屋圭司等幾個日本議員來參觀國漫館，想知道臺灣的國家怎麼去建立一個漫畫中心，我們當初很快地蓋好這個之後，內部的調整，你剛才講的所有問題都是對的，就是我們要怎麼樣去增加展覽空間，我們怎麼去保存文物，我們怎麼去推廣我們的漫畫，我們一直加緊腳步在做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：上次還有講休憩，因為包括很多親子家庭來到這裡，凸顯休憩空間的不足，還有我們說到用扭蛋的方式去呈現的銷售模式，或者是文創的入駐，其實在當下我們都有提到，我們都希望國漫能夠更好，以及國漫館的設施在運作的時候能夠有所提升，那我要講的是說，如果剛剛你所說的你們都準備好了，也都有改善，這個部分的解凍案，部長，您預計什麼時候可以面臨這樣子的解凍案，可以趕快送審？如果你有意願，你也準備好了，我們自己也有召委啊，我們也可以跟召委講，希望他排案，來幫忙協助啊。這個部分你已經準備好了嗎？"],["李部長遠：我問問看。其實剛才回到解凍案的問題，我們個別都朝著要解凍的那個東西在寫，我剛剛有解釋過，解凍的理由和我們要寫的過程，為什麼我們有點猶豫，因為以我們前面在審預算過程中的經驗，讓我們很怕再被羞辱一次。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想用羞辱這個言詞，非常的嚴厲，但沒關係，我們都是希望這個國家好，我們都希望國漫館能夠更好，相信你自己，也相信我們在監督的過程當中，都是希望朝向更好的方向。基本上，我剛剛講的很簡單，就是對於無障礙空間的改善，對於休憩空間的改善，對於臺灣漫畫家的合作能夠更多元，甚至是二手漫畫的交流，以及銷售方式的文創能夠更多入駐，這個部分當然是見仁見智，但是如果有朝向這個方向，我們都希望能夠朝這個方向來努力的時候，就是樂觀其成，我們會來協助，但是我覺得不需要去擔憂嘛，我們在這個部分一起來努力，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：我覺得羅委員對我們的漫畫博物館這麼關心，我非常高興，因為我自己在最近這幾年，看到我們的臺漫起來，我心裡也非常急切，我希望羅委員協助我們爭取預算，還有一切一切的，我們一起來做，好嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後10秒。我們一定會協助，只要您的政策方向是對的，我想這個過程中很激烈，有火花，但是希望結果是朝向正面的，我們都是為這個國家努力，為文化努力，為國漫館努力。一起加油，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅廷瑋委員。部長請回。","我們接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9004d21ccfcde654ea97648dfe0a0275fc5b9e3eaef4bc79033af3aa6264434cab25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:40:18 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那剛好也有提到這個問題所以我們目前這個調薪的機制是各縣市去做調整的嘛針對保姆這部分"},{"start":354.592,"end":376.942,"text":"調薪的部分調薪的部分的話他最後發現還是有地方去那但是這個調薪的標準的部分這次公托案整個都調薪的部分是中央來中央來的做一個等這個統一的薪資的去做一個調整因為根據我們調查22個縣市其實針對我們托育的費用這部分有在討論的20個縣市只有"},{"start":379.403,"end":398.935,"text":"桃園新竹新北嘉義這四個縣市有在實質在討論其他的縣市那我們也看他調薪的幅度大概都是1000塊到1000塊以下那這部分我看我們社家組副署長也有在講是不是針對這部分由中央統一統一來"},{"start":401.176,"end":410.367,"text":"統一來調心建立這個機制是要跟地方政府跟民團來討論那這部分我們有在跟地方政府跟民團有在討論這部分嗎"},{"start":414.061,"end":441.813,"text":"因為現在目前這個部分就跟我們那個社會救助法一樣其實基本上他的收費其實基本上大家都看每個地方他的這一個民眾的家庭可支配所得還有他的那個最低生活費還有他的那個CPI就是那個整個所以每個地方沒有辦法這個恐怕很難所以大概就是說我們會我們當然希望就是說各地方政府盡量你總是要有一個機制往上提但是基本上還是因地制宜啦"},{"start":442.433,"end":468.138,"text":"所以我們意思就是說當然沒有辦法全國統一應該是有它的原因的存在但是我們各縣市針對這部分我們衛福部我們主管單位我們這些也要針對各縣市針對這些薪資的部分要去了解你看我們現在的部分我們保姆跟托育人員現在供需的狀況是如何據我們了解應該是"},{"start":469.498,"end":497.792,"text":"蠻缺的而且心血都沒有辦法進入包圍我先簡單說明一下中央我們現在目前本部現在目前在嚴領托育服務法這裡面就會把剛委員剛所說的就是我們中央可以統一的就是說他的居家保姆的收費跟退費的項目項目我們會把它明定但是這些項目它裡面它的具體它的均額多少還是要看地方政府剛剛說的可支配所得還有它的這個CPI等等這些去因地制宜"},{"start":498.132,"end":526.451,"text":"但是委員剛剛你所說的確實我覺得這個部分應該應該要有一個機制來做總體調生要不然保母確實我也知道確實就是有那個就是比較高齡化的問題這個對我們小朋友兒童照顧我覺得這個也未來是一個很大問題對啊因為你看現在保母老化然後新血輪又沒有辦法進入那當然也是變成我們年輕人小孩子生了以後沒有人有辦法去照顧造成他們不敢去生這個小孩子"},{"start":527.031,"end":548.796,"text":"那所以我們這邊我們也可以參考一下因為我看一下桃園市有針對新進居家托育人員他有訂定一個獎注的辦法就是說你如果服務滿一年他每年獎注多八千塊給他然後針對像我們觀音新屋大園大溪復興等地比較偏遠的地方"},{"start":549.296,"end":577.615,"text":"真的托育人員真的非常少尤其現在桃園現在桃園是出生率最高的地方所以他針對出生率高相對這個托育人員就減少那他針對偏鄉的部分又另外再多補助加碼2000這樣子去鼓勵我們更多的從業人員去從事保母這個工作那我覺得我們中央有些這部分也可以考慮來參考一下"},{"start":581.298,"end":604.319,"text":"目前對於保姆的新手進來去工作一段時間的獎勵措施目前中央現在是有訂的,滿一年是可以到一萬八這個一萬八的獎勵金額裡面一樣它是有看地方政府的財政的能力中央跟地方分別有負擔一定的比例這個部分的話在這一萬八裡面中央一樣也有支持地方相當比例的金額"},{"start":605.46,"end":621.826,"text":"好那今天會提出的主要部分我是發現因為我們針對公托跟準公托這部分我們當然我們中央這部分有注意到那針對私托還有我們保姆這部分我覺得我們也要好好的管理輔導能夠解決我們這個保姆荒的問題好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1198,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時40分）謝謝主席，請衛福部次長。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：次長，臺灣推動居家托育制度登記制以來，到現在其實已經滿十年了。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["涂委員權吉：但是我們研究之後發現這個制度還是有一些問題，針對保母的薪資長期低迷，調薪又缺乏標準，也沒有一個明確有效的違規退場機制，導致我們的托育品質參差不齊，讓許多的家長也無所適從。請問次長，針對保母、托育員的工作內容，你認為他們現在的薪資是高或低？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我當然覺得還是不足，應該是有努力的空間。過去我在臺中擔任過社會局長，也知道這些保母都很辛苦，他們也真的希望能把小朋友照顧好，所以我認為合理的薪資是應該的。"],["涂委員權吉：114年要調高托育人員的薪資到3萬8,011元，準公托也調到3萬3,200元到3萬9,200元不等，這是針對公托及準公托的部分。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["涂委員權吉：請問私托的托育人員及居家托育保母的部分呢？"],["周代理署長道君：報告委員，公托的部分以往大概都會面臨工作人員一向不易遴聘的狀況，也許家長對於公托的照顧品質比較信賴，一般來講，當家長有選擇時大概都會優先選擇公托，對於公托的照顧也有比較多的期待，因此我們這次處理確實是將公托的薪資從三萬五千多調到三萬八千多。"],["涂委員權吉：公托與準公托有做調整，但是私托與居家托育保母的部分呢？"],["周代理署長道君：居家托育保母的部分，我們大概做過統計，居家保母多數平均都會帶2個小朋友左右，平均每收一個小朋友的收入大概是一萬六千多，因此，一個保母帶2個小朋友的收入大概是3萬2,000元到3萬3,000元左右。"],["涂委員權吉：我們除了注重公托與準公托的部分之外，對於私托與保母的部分也要注意，因為我們發現目前有保母荒的情形。根據104人力銀行的資訊，一年以下的保母整個平均薪資最低只有3萬元，而且十年以上的也只有拿到4萬元。根據勞動部的職類別薪資調查動態查詢，我們看到學前教育兒童照顧人員、保母的經常性薪資也只有三萬一千多元，所以他們的年薪大概只有40萬元。看起來與衛福部公布的有一段落差，是不是沒有包含私托與居家保母的部分？"],["周代理署長道君：報告委員，關於你剛才所提的數據，可能主要是針對公托或準公托的部分，因為這個薪資調查是針對薪資所做的處理。如果是居家保母或居家托育，因為是自營作業收入，一般來說，進行收入調查時就不會納入這一塊，但是我們就他們收托的平均人數計算，一個保母通常大概會收2個小朋友左右。"],["涂委員權吉：今天提出這個議題是希望也能針對私托及保母的部分進行管理及輔導，否則他們的所得那麼低，甚至不願意再從事這個行業，造成許多年輕人生了小孩之後無人照顧，我認為這也是面對少子化應該要注意的地方，因為小孩子生下來之後沒人照顧，又因為保母薪資太低，沒有人願意從事這個行業。"],["周代理署長道君：報告委員，關於保母收費的部分，原則上，因為每個地方有不一樣的生活水準，所以由地方政府訂定保母的收費，但是我們會輔導地方政府訂定保母收費基準的參考原則，並要求地方政府注意地方的收費狀態。"],["涂委員權吉：好。剛好也提到這個問題，目前保母的調薪機制是由各縣市調整嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：調薪的部分最後是由地方發薪，至於調薪的標準，這次公托整個調薪是由中央統一進行薪資的調整。"],["涂委員權吉：根據我們的調查，在22個縣市中僅有桃園、新竹、新北及嘉義實質討論過托育費用，其他縣市調薪的幅度大概都是在1,000元或1,000元以下。針對這個部分，社家署副署長也說過，是否要由中央統一調薪並建立機制，應該與地方政府及民團共同討論，請問我們與地方政府及民團討論過這個部分嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個部分就與社會救助法一樣，基本上，它的收費要看每個地方的民眾家庭可支配所得、最低生活費以及CPI，也就是消費物價指數。"],["涂委員權吉：所以每個地方沒有辦法……"],["呂次長建德：這個恐怕很難！我們當然希望各地方政府儘量……總是要有一個機制往上提，但基本上還是要因地制宜啦！"],["涂委員權吉：既然無法全國統一，應該有其原因存在，但是衛福部或主管單位也應該針對各縣市的薪資狀況去了解。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["涂委員權吉：你看，現在保母與托育人員的供需狀況是如何？根據我們的了解，應該是滿缺的喔！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["涂委員權吉：而且新血都沒辦法進入喔！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我先簡單說明一下，目前本部正在研擬托育服務法，中央可以統一居家保母收費及退費的項目，所以我們會將項目明定，但是這些項目具體的金額是多少，還是要看地方的可支配所得及CPI等等去因地制宜，但是誠如委員剛剛所說的，確實，我覺得這個部分應該要有一個機制做總體調升。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！"],["呂次長建德：我也知道保母確實是有高齡化的問題，未來對於小朋友的兒童照顧也會是一個很大的問題。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！你看，現在保母老化，新血又沒辦法進入，造成年輕人生下小孩無人照顧，導致他們不敢生小孩。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["涂委員權吉：桃園市針對新進居家托育人員訂定了一個獎助辦法，服務滿一年就可以每年獎助8,000元。此外，針對觀音、新屋、大園、大溪及復興等比較偏遠的地方，因為托育人員真的非常少，但現在桃園是出生率最高的地方，也因為出生率高，相對的托育人員就不足，所以針對偏鄉的部分又加碼補助2,000元，以此鼓勵更多人從事保母這個工作，我覺得中央也可以考慮參考一下。"],["周代理署長道君：報告委員，目前中央也有訂定新手保母工作一段時間之後的獎勵措施，滿一年就可以到1萬8,000元。在1萬8,000元的獎勵金額裡，一樣也是看地方政府的財政能力，並由中央與地方分別負擔一定的比例，所以中央在1萬8,000元裡也有支持地方相當比例的金額。"],["涂委員權吉：好。今天之所以提出這個議題，主要是因為中央已經注意到公托及準公托的部分，但是針對私托以及保母的部分，我認為我們也應該要好好的管理及輔導，這樣才能解決保母荒的問題，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝涂委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂次。","現在處理臨時提案，共計1案。","案由：茲有陳情，有關準公共化托嬰中心，因評鑑未能符合《直轄市、縣（市）政府辦理未滿二歲兒童托育公共化及準公共服務作業要點》第三條規定，導致來年將喪失準公共化托嬰中心資格。意味著陳情人不更換托育中心，原本每月可請領的15,000元托育補助（含地方政府加碼2,000元）將全然取消，僅餘一個月5,000育兒津貼，落差一萬元。這些家長不能更換托育中心有很多原因，包括：離家近、費用、熟悉度等等，衛福部的政策似乎反而阻擋了這些家庭再生養子女的意願，感覺給人民設立生育門檻，衛福部如何改善能夠讓人民更方便托育？在公共托育資源匱乏的今日，要尋覓合適的托嬰中心或保母談何容易？僅因評鑑結果即取消補助，對於正在托育的人民還要更換托育中心，此邏輯是否意味著，托嬰中心的疏失，最終由無辜的家長承擔後果？","爰提案要求衛福部研議，於三個月內提出方案，採取限期改善機制，若在改善期後仍未達標準，再行解約。此改善期間，家長的托育補助繼續。","是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　盧縣一"],["主席：行政單位有沒有意見？"],["周代理署長道君：報告委員，因為考量家長遇到托嬰中心評鑑不合格以及轉託的中間會需要一個緩衝，目前我們現有的機制已經給予家長補助，在這個緩衝期間之內，如果是請領準公托的托育補助，還是有3個月的緩衝期可以按照現有的金額繼續請領，並不會降下來，不會調整成一個月5,000元的育兒津貼，現在是不會的。","針對臨時提案的文字，我們建議是否能夠稍微酌作調整，最後一段修正為「爰提案要求衛福部於三個月內研議，採取限期改善機制，在改善期後仍未達標準，再行解約，及改善期間家長協助措施之可行性。」我們大概就是在文字上稍微做一點調整，以上建議，謝謝。"],["主席：這是家長提出的陳情，因為準公托是一個蘿蔔一個坑，好像不是很好找，而且礙於居住地點的關係，無法找太遠的，況且也不一定能找得到，所以你們應該要輔導他們轉托。如果托育中心本身的條件不好、評鑑的結果不好，當然是要改善，我們對於評鑑的部分不予置評，但是你們要輔導他們，因為現在準公托真的是不好找，真的是有很多家長來陳情，以上。你把臨時提案改成這樣，可以啦！","臨時提案1案修正後通過。"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：下一位請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90019b4966c0b345514b4606480da88618db9e3eaef4bc790338d5162d7c243163e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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因為你提到了所以我不認為啦 但是你既然提到了你是不是提供一個數據給我們是 我們可以提供數字是因為他沒有這個部分 所以他就沒有辦法去報考這個是提供一個數字 請提供第二個很重要的"},{"start":357.469,"end":382.459,"text":"我們就先講土木土木工程看起來不是只有原住民特考而原住民非常需要因為原鄉的部分更需要包括公路總局他們在原鄉的部分更需要第一個這涉及到整個考試院的政策對於土木工程的待遇是不是需要去檢討為什麼呢"},{"start":385.464,"end":411.852,"text":"因為現在缺工一般事業民間的也都缺在這樣的情況之下他們的待遇就會增加當然他就不會去選擇公務機關你們也可以去調查公務機關一般的公務機關他考上了進去沒多久他就離開了"},{"start":413.306,"end":441.463,"text":"這個就是可能跟待遇有關係我的了解是這樣這是第一個第二個原住民的部分我們就從原住民的部分怎麼樣去協調相關的部會譬如說這個相關的部會怎麼樣去辦這個我們還是有我們的鄉親還是願意去考啊但是就考不上啊對不對不足的路程是考不上有報名"},{"start":442.674,"end":461.148,"text":"考不上第一個是不是怎樣協助他考得上第二個就是是不是考得太難也要跟典事委員去評估 去了解還是未來透過訓練先讓他進去加強訓練這都是一個解決的途徑好不好 這個議題是蠻大的議題 好不好"},{"start":469.873,"end":484.506,"text":"我們會來主要是我們現在有一個教考訓練平台的確跟人總然後跟行政院那邊可能剛剛委員講的問題都會列入來討論好謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請鄭正前"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1099,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時42分）主席，有請考選部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員。","伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員。","陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速交個別委員及本會。","委員翁曉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00004"}}},{"id":"159715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9009ff0a16ea73b340a1e62e9fce1db2a03b9e3eaef4bc790333b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:43:29 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謝謝主席麻煩我們一樣國土署我們徐副署長好 請國土署"},{"start":20.697,"end":44.764,"text":"委員吳安副主任吳安那我想請教一下這個我們的礦區民眾居住權這件事情在上一次選舉的時候有被充分討論嗎那我們國督署在陸陸續續都有發表一些可能要這個可能不要汙名化或者是說協助他們爭取應有的居住權這件事情可能到去年我還有看到相關的新聞媒體報導在披露"},{"start":47.085,"end":68.024,"text":"那我想確認一下因為我的選區除了我們總統的老家有礦區外其實我的選區各個選區各個行政區都很多礦區啦許多人關心相關的進程不曉得礦區權益這個的編定的進度最近有沒有什麼新的消息因為這還是要尊重新北市啦那新北市你們會有原則嗎"},{"start":70.722,"end":93.353,"text":"相關審查都已經都有原則然後新北市會我們會去到府服務之後新北市會依程序如果要送上來的我會送上來進行接下來的審議程序所以你們給地方我們現在的邏輯方針是先請地方我們有頒布一套辦法嗎那套辦法叫什麼有頒布了嗎哪時候頒布的"},{"start":94.914,"end":122.27,"text":"因為地方政府如果要辦理土地編定的話他們一般來說都會希望愈發有據嘛而不是說我今天想變什麼就變什麼有沒有一個指導原則之類的指導原則的名稱或是哪時候頒布的有相關訊息嗎因為可能我沒有注意到沒有注意到我沒有看到沒有注意到這樣子作業須知是我有頒布然後可是他還是要依那個計畫來呈報那新北市在他也有他計畫呈報的相關的部分這樣我們可以整理出來也跟新北市一樣所以是針對礦區嗎"},{"start":123.843,"end":142.614,"text":"是 一定在問的部分 相關的東西就是針對礦區 後續如果說沒有礦區的使用那我們相關的一個變更的指導原則已經出來了那提供給地方政府 那後續地方政府你們希望地方政府主動來辦理變更編訂然後之後再 方案再送到我們內部政府來審議 方向是這樣子嗎"},{"start":146.362,"end":163.852,"text":"以目前他如果是閒置然後礦業主管經貸那這個地方就可以處理了地方政府就可以自行編訂了也不用再送到內政部好那我後續就來跟地方政府確認一下他有沒有收到這個東西那後續他要去怎麼執行那目前有任何一個地方政府有完成這個變更編訂了嗎"},{"start":169.311,"end":189.427,"text":"蠻多的都已經在做了有在做也有發佈的已經有發佈的了對好那謝謝謝謝我們副組長那我後續再來跟地方政府來請教那另外一個就是我再麻煩我們的我們國發會好國發會我們彭副主任副組長你也留步一下請副主委可能農業部也一起好了"},{"start":190.871,"end":202.096,"text":"副主委副主委不好意思請教一下因為我們地方創生就是我們的業務那地方創生就牽扯到土管的問題那土地管自成是我們青年朋友要回去"},{"start":203.411,"end":229.377,"text":"這個要做不管是農業發展相關的產業的時候會遇到一個很大問題就是使用分區的管制嘛那使用分區的管制包括這個生活最需要的最基本的可能廁所或者是一些說什麼小朋友去玩要一個洗手台等等的這些可能在我們現有的這個區域計劃法裡面可能農地上面都是不被允許的他可能都要去另外去做相關的申請"},{"start":230.137,"end":248.024,"text":"那其實這相關的申請也都會造成一些成本的增加也會增加它的一些困難性就是一個抗力一個阻力啦那我們這部分有沒有針對地方創生地方朋友所遇到可能在農牧用地相關比較嚴格的使用分區上面遇到的困難來跟我們的農業部或是內政部來做一些討論來做一些相關的放寬"},{"start":254.454,"end":269.64,"text":"是 我跟委員報告因為我們地方創生整個的多元提案的程序裡面其實針對不同的個案其實都有一個主管的部會那在他們提案過程裡面呢都會經由這些部會協助他們去做一些審查那"},{"start":270.22,"end":289.707,"text":"當部會他們同意的時候才會提到我們地方創生匯報我們在最後做決定那但是有很多部分有些是公部門執行的那大概都會用公有的土地然後他們應該本來就具備一些合法的條件那有一些可能是私人的或者是福原剛剛提到那個比較特別的地方"},{"start":290.467,"end":310.311,"text":"他其實會針對那個地方去做個案的處理那基本上都會經過那個我們博導團隊來協助其實各個部會都有各個部會的一個責任劃分嘛農業部的立場當然是要保持我們的農地的一個功能的完整那我們國發會當然是在產業的上面那當然其實兩方面本來就是會有一些衝突這是大家都能夠理解的"},{"start":310.751,"end":329.784,"text":"但是既然我們國發會是在輔導民眾回去創業的時候他們遇到這麼多法令的問題譬如說在農地上面要做什麼東西可能都會有一些放寬譬如說容許使用等等的可能有一些要請專業的水保技師或者是這個建築師去做一些相關的規劃這些成本您也知道這些成本對於我們"},{"start":330.905,"end":345.281,"text":"回去地方串聲的朋友來講它是一個很大的一個門檻那我希望說我們國發會後續再輔導地方串聲的時候我們可能長期以來都是注重在產業面怎麼寫出它宣傳啊實質的內容的部分但是土地管制的這部分"},{"start":345.822,"end":366.298,"text":"我也希望能夠協助我們地方創生的朋友多多跟農業部來做一些溝通能夠做放寬的 謝謝沒有迫害到我們國土利用的符合我們國發會的一個方針的我們盡量去做一些放寬我的放寬不只是容許使用要請一些技師去簽證什麼什麼的而是直接可能在一定的規模以下就是我們直接容許的"},{"start":366.698,"end":375.964,"text":"是 好不好 我希望我們副主委應該如果地方政府有發生這些問題或是疑難的時候我們再看看有什麼個案的方式去說我想這已經是現在的問題了啊好 現在的問題就看你們有沒有重視這樣子謝謝 謝謝副主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時43分）謝謝主席。一樣請國土署徐副署長。"],["主席：請國土署副署長。"],["徐副署長燕興：委員午安。"],["廖委員先翔：副署長午安。本席想請教一下礦區民眾居住權這件事情，在上一次選舉的時候有被充分討論，國土署也有陸續發表一些政策，例如不要污名化，或者是協助他們爭取應有的居住權，去年本席還有看到相關的新聞媒體報導披露。本席想確認一下，因為除了總統的老家有礦區之外，其實在本席的選區中，各行政區都有很多礦區，許多人都很關心相關進程。關於礦區權益、編定的進度，最近有沒有新消息？"],["徐副署長燕興：因為這還是要尊重新北市，新北市……"],["廖委員先翔：你們會有原則嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：礦業的相關審查都有原則。我們到府服務之後，新北市會依程序處理，如果需要送上來的，他們就會送上來進行接下來的審議程序。"],["廖委員先翔：現在的邏輯方針是先請地方處理，你們也有頒布一套辦法。那套辦法叫什麼？頒布了嗎？哪時候頒布的？因為地方政府如果要辦理土地編定的話，一般來說都會希望於法有據，而不是今天想變什麼就變什麼。你們有沒有指導原則之類的？指導原則的名稱是什麼？或是哪時候頒布的？有相關訊息嗎？因為本席可能沒有看到或注意到。"],["徐副署長燕興：是有頒布作業須知，可是它還是要依計畫呈報。新北市也會呈報相關計畫，這些我們可以整理出來，也會向新北市要。"],["廖委員先翔：針對礦區嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：是。就是您在問的部分，和這個相關的東西。"],["廖委員先翔：所以針對礦區的部分，例如後續礦區不再使用，相關的變更指導原則已經出來了，也有提供給地方政府。"],["徐副署長燕興：有。"],["廖委員先翔：你們希望地方政府主動辦理變更編定，之後再把方案送到內部政審議，方向是這樣嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：目前如果是閒置的，礦業主管機關也認為沒有在使用了……"],["廖委員先翔：就廢止礦業權了。"],["徐副署長燕興：對，這樣地方就可以處理了。"],["廖委員先翔：地方政府就可以自行編定，也不用再送到內政部？"],["徐副署長燕興：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，本席會和地方政府確認他們有沒有收到這個指導原則，以及後續要怎麼執行。據你們了解，目前有地方政府完成變更編定嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：滿多的，都已經在做了。"],["廖委員先翔：有在做？"],["徐副署長燕興：也有已經發布的。"],["廖委員先翔：已經有發布的？"],["徐副署長燕興：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝副署長，本席後續會再向地方政府請教。另外麻煩國發會彭副主任委員，副署長請留步，農業部也一起上台好了。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：副主委，不好意思，本席要請教一下，因為地方創生是國發會的業務，談到地方創生就會牽扯到土管的問題。土地管制常常是青年朋友回鄉時遇到的一個大問題，例如做和農業發展相關的產業，就會關係到使用分區的管制嘛！包括生活最需要、最基本的，例如廁所或者小朋友去玩時需要有一個洗手台等等，這些依現行的區域計畫法在農地都是不被允許的，可能都要另外申請相關許可。","其實這些相關申請除了會造成成本增加，也會增加他們發展的困難性，這樣就會形成一個抗力、阻力啦！針對他們進行地方創生時所遇到的問題，例如使用分區是農牧用地時會有比較嚴格的規定，導致他們有使用上的困難，這部分有沒有和農業部或內政部做一些討論，進行相關放寬？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：因為在地方創生多元提案的程序裡面，每個個案都會有一個主管的部會，在提案過程裡面，會由這些部會協助他們去做一些審查，部會同意之後，才會提到我們的地方創生會報做最後決定。但是有些是由公部門執行，這時大概都會用公有的土地，他們本來就具備一些合法的條件。有一些可能是私人的，或是委員剛才提到的，有比較特別的地方，他們也會針對那個部分做個案處理，基本上我們的輔導團隊都會予以協助。"],["廖委員先翔：我們知道各部會有各自的責任劃分嘛！農業部的立場當然是要保持農地的功能完整，國發會當然是站在產業的立場，兩方面本來就會有一些衝突，這些大家都能夠理解。但既然是國發會輔導民眾回去創業，當他們遇到這麼多法令上的問題，例如要在農地上做什麼東西時，可能需要法令做一些放寬，例如容許使用等等，可能有一些還要請專業的水保技師、建築師去做相關規劃。","您也知道這些成本對於回去做地方創生的朋友來說是一個很大的門檻，本席希望國發會後續在輔導地方創生的時候，因為我們長期以來可能都是注重產業面，例如協助他們宣傳等實質內容，關於土地管制這部分，本席也希望能夠協助做地方創生的朋友，多和農業部做一些溝通。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：能夠放寬的，不會破壞到國土利用，符合國發會方針的，你們要儘量放寬。本席所謂的放寬不是容許使用，但是還要請一些技師去做簽證等等，而是例如在一定規模以下直接容許，好不好？本席希望副主委……"],["彭副主任委員立沛：好。如果地方政府發生這些問題，或是有疑難，我們再看看如何針對個案的進行調解。"],["廖委員先翔：這是已經發生的問題，現在這些問題就看你們是否重視而已。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝副主委。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。下一位請何欣純委員發言。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員不在。","請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在。","請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","今天的議程是「鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向」，我們希望今天與會各單位，甚至包括今天沒有與會的內政部地政司，因為都和鄉村總體規劃的法規、預算有關，所以我們具體請求：第一個，請內政部會同國家發展委員會、農業部及相關部會，針對鄉村地區整體規劃之推動機制、配合法令、實施工具及經費等進行盤點，並提出未來六年之規劃方向及推動方式。第二，涉及所需經費及來源，請中央相關部會積極爭取預算。本席再加第三點，關於相關法規之修正方向，請於三個月內提出初步計畫給經濟委員會及本會委員。以上是本席的裁示，希望相關部會可以加速辦理。","剛剛本席宣示的三個要點，雖然裁示是三個月，不過在這三個月當中，本席可能會再召開一場公聽會，未必會用經濟委員會的時間，但是本席希望這件事要積極推動。現在既然有國土計畫法，而且已經把鄉規入法，本席覺得這是很重要的一刻，既然已經入法，就要有配套以及預算，這兩件事都很重要，相關部會應該把資源整合好，包括配套要怎麼執行。","本席相信現在有很多部落、村莊都在期待，就像剛剛伍麗華委員說的，有些村莊現在就在期待了，所以本席希望她剛剛說的那一個個案能當作指標案例，看我們怎麼去協助他們，雖然現在是殯葬用地，但未來那塊地能變得更有使用價值，是更有生產力的土地。"],["黃處長叔娟：召委，我補充一項資訊，國土永續發展基金到2月底有現金283億元可以運用，所以是優先從這裡來做處理。當然，後續一定會不夠，如果照委員您這樣的構想執行的話，但是現在國土永續發展基金有283億元。"],["主席：好，這個資訊很重要，有兩百多億元，這個會做為本席未來召開公聽會的資料，這個部分有經費來源，兩百多億元可以做很多事。那筆資金現在在做什麼？現在那筆資金的使用方式？"],["徐副署長燕興：現在是做相關的規劃，還有縣市的通盤檢討。除了之前各縣市做的規劃，還有我們這些陪伴、協助的專業團隊……"],["主席：所以就是剛剛伍麗華委員秀出來的資料嘛！在每一個縣市當中，有哪些鄉鎮正在做鄉規。"],["徐副署長燕興：現在做的所有國土計畫，還有違規監測等相關事情，現在都是用這筆錢，未來我們還有一個機制，就是做復育，復育也要用這筆錢。所以這筆錢要不要用來做鄉村的農地重劃？這件事情還要重新討論，所以我們的會議紀錄才說要盤整，因為要盤點完才知道。"],["主席：好，沒關係，至少我們知道有一個穩定的經費來源。"],["徐副署長燕興：真的，原來法令規定要做的，其實要……"],["主席：就是要趕快盤整。因為陳冠廷委員對於國土計畫很關心，尤其是未來要怎麼做鄉規的配套，他也很在意，所以他用跑的過來，雖然剛剛已經跳過去了，不過我們再給他3分鐘的時間，讓他可以詢問與會官員。","請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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要在直轄市縣市國土計畫公告實施後的10年內依中央主管機關指定之日期 以並公告國土功能分區圖所以在這邊先請教一下副署長"},{"start":58.29,"end":84.03,"text":"除了南投縣以外21個直轄市縣市政府都已經把國土功能分區圖報請內政部的國土計畫審議委員會來審議那請教一下審了沒有報告我們陸續都在審然後有9個已經那個審議通過了好那請教一下那9個審議完成的修正核定之後可以公告嗎會公告嗎現在我們"},{"start":87.959,"end":104.985,"text":"全部來一起通告政策是這樣子政策全部一起公告法規也是這樣子定的所以是說10年內公告沒有因為就是現在還有陸續在審的還有你剛剛講的南投所以要全部22個是"},{"start":108.743,"end":136.859,"text":"全部審完一併公告那我現在就是要來關心這個問題我請教一下內政部有來核定補助原民地區的鄉村地區這樣的一個經費就是所謂的鄉規從110年度那你們最後一筆113年度的最後一筆呢是仁愛鄉對不對那我請教一下今年會繼續補助嗎"},{"start":140.381,"end":157.592,"text":"會繼續會繼續補助那我再請教一下那沒有審議沒有核定國土功能分區那這些鄉村地區整體規劃能執行嗎因為如果還沒通過就是適用區域計畫法的相關的審議跟開發許可的機制那這個機制因為大家都有鄉規那鄉規"},{"start":159.893,"end":183.454,"text":"一旦經過這個地方鄉村剛才講地方創生等等東西都會整合在一起對空間有一定的看法的規範那這就會是我們不管是地方跟中央都會依這個東西來做相關的審查所以意思就是說從110年度獲得核定補助的其實他也已經完成了也結案了那請教一下副署長他下一步要幹嘛"},{"start":184.841,"end":204.002,"text":"你說接下來要做那個那就要經過公告之後我們會有另外一塊下一個步驟的通盤檢討那請教副署長那公告什麼時候您這樣看就我們立場應該是越快越好因為他說10年內公告嘛是所以全部22個走完就會公告"},{"start":205.403,"end":228.935,"text":"對 如果大家都在這個過程中可以公告我們就公告副組長我要讓您了解一下我上個禮拜我有去萊義高中借一個教室去主持一個會議可能您也很清楚知道我們原住民有很多很多的土地問題而且非常難解那這些人其實引頸氣盼"},{"start":230.748,"end":248.76,"text":"我們國土計畫法如果按照原定5月1號上路就可以解套但是呢他們對於延後6年要繼續等6年非常的無奈因為他們等了很久那幾戶人家很特別因為呢他們那個地方都沒有所有權那更何況水電表"},{"start":253.571,"end":279.042,"text":"講難聽一點都是私階也沒有門牌號很辛苦可是呢我現在特別講一下這個仁愛鄉因為這是我上上個禮拜我也去做會刊因為南投縣仁愛鄉他是最後一個他是在紀錄上他最後一筆拿到鄉規那這是他的公墓在例行的一個公墓那他們的部落的村長所有的人呢 領長都一起來拜託為什麼"},{"start":282.583,"end":294.717,"text":"因為您看一下這個他的土地建物的查詢資料他這個使用的分區他叫森林區他叫森林區那您也很清楚"},{"start":295.936,"end":314.318,"text":"按照我們非都變更邊定的原則這種森林區是萬萬絕對沒有辦法變更為殯葬用地所以他們當初一直在等這個鄉規啊國土公門分區啊就一直等他們過去想要申請我們的殯葬量能計畫"},{"start":315.97,"end":328.316,"text":"一直沒有辦法 就在等這個國土計畫是他們唯一的解套完了 要等六年然後呢 這個殯葬量能提升計畫編到114 也不知道有沒有下一期"},{"start":329.74,"end":346.291,"text":"其實這樣的問題在原鄉地區很多很多原本以為5月1號就要上路的國土計劃法可以讓這些歷史塵蚵一一的被解決掉完了就沒辦法所以呢我請教一下就是副署長像這樣的一個狀況您覺得怎麼辦"},{"start":353.109,"end":361.054,"text":"這個案子的詳細狀況例如他還有什麼敏感什麼東西我比較不清楚這部分個案部分我們可以會後我們去"},{"start":362.322,"end":367.366,"text":"我們請我們組裡面 科裡面去看是怎麼樣可以去幫忙那就是來我辦公室看怎麼協助解決嗎可以嗎可以好 謝謝那副處長我請您看一個圖一樣就是國土計畫法它在第15條它有寫直轄市縣市國土計畫每5年通盤檢討一次這個是沒有修的但是你看這個圖"},{"start":386.821,"end":391.707,"text":"直轄市縣市國土計畫已經公告在110年已經公告那現在問題來了國土公能分區延後就是到120年那剛才我講的相規從110年就開始做了直到現在 您說也會繼續補助"},{"start":403.24,"end":420.211,"text":"好那現在呢按照我剛才念的直轄市縣市國土計畫通盤檢討沒有修所以他是維持每5年檢討一次所以預計他是會落在115年我現在就想問那鄉村地區整體規劃他到底是要等120年的還是等115年應該是全面實施之後"},{"start":428.392,"end":441.545,"text":"所以我就是想要來請教一下副署長您的意見我認為是為了不打劫也不違法我是希望內政部乾脆就以115通檢來做一個標準"},{"start":444.808,"end":472.029,"text":"我希望各縣市國土功能分區先到先審可以先公告核定那第二個部分就是我也希望內政部這邊殯葬量能提升計畫能夠持續的提報編列經費因為很多地方都還很辛苦特別我提到原住民族地區從日本人來從室內葬要在戶外葬戶外葬之後土葬現在又要改成火葬"},{"start":472.929,"end":499.153,"text":"我們其實是一直在適應國家的法令要有一個適應期但是我們也希望我們的政府能夠體恤也能夠給我們繼續的來等候我們所有的人都願意跟上政府的政策計畫副組長這樣可以嗎有關這個先審先核定因為剛剛已經講在法裡面的規定我們也必須要依法決定那可以以115為基準嗎"},{"start":501.642,"end":520.08,"text":"應該現在法院沒辦法去做這件事情但是因為已經有相規指導的跟我們區計在審查的相關的這個配套跟部分那個署長也有指示我們組裡面去看去盤整看是這些指引跟準則跟地方線是第一線的問題這部分我們來做調節應該可以解決"},{"start":523.104,"end":537.019,"text":"一部分的問題好 那我希望這兩個部分我聽起來就是有不錯的一個態度的表示那我們就希望到辦公室來看怎麼樣來解決這些遇到困難的部落好不好是好 謝謝副組長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時34分）謝謝主席，有請國土署徐燕興副署長。"],["主席：請副署長。"],["徐副署長燕興：委員午安。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：午安。國土計畫法在修法之後延後了6年，所以國土計畫法第四十五條也做了修正，就是直轄市、縣（市）主管機關要在直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫公告實施後十年內，依中央主管機關指定之日期，一併公告國土功能分區圖。所以在這邊先請教一下副署長，除了南投縣以外，21個直轄市、縣（市）政府都已經將國土功能分區圖報請內政部的國土計畫審議委員會審議，請教一下，審議了沒有？"],["徐副署長燕興：我們有在陸續審議，有9個已經審議通過了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。請教一下，那9個審議完成的，修正核定之後可以公告嗎？會公告嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：現在我們是全部一起公告，政策是這樣子。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們的政策是全部一起公告？"],["徐副署長燕興：法規也是這樣規定的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是十年內公告？"],["徐副署長燕興：沒有。因為現在還在陸續審議，還有您剛剛說的南投也還沒有送。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以要22個縣市全部審完再一併公告？"],["徐副署長燕興：對，一併公告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席現在就是要來關心這個問題。請教一下，內政部有核定補助原民鄉村地區的經費，就是所謂的鄉規，從110年度開始，113年度的最後一筆是仁愛鄉，對不對？"],["徐副署長燕興：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教一下，今年會繼續補助嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：會繼續。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：再請教一下，沒有審議、沒有核定國土功能分區，這些鄉村地區的整體規劃能執行嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：如果還沒有通過，就是適用區域計畫法的相關審議和開發許可機制。因為大家都有鄉規嘛！而且剛剛說的地方創生等等都會整合在一起，對空間有一定的規範，不管是地方或中央都會依這個規範做相關審查，那個部分就有規範。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：110年度獲得核定補助的，其實他們已經完成了，也結案了，請教副署長，他們下一步要幹嘛？"],["徐副署長燕興：你是說接下來要做哪個部分嗎？那就要等公告，我們會有下一個步驟的通盤檢討。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教副署長，依您看什麼時候會公告？"],["徐副署長燕興：就我們的立場應該是越快越好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為法規是規定十年內公告嘛！所以22個縣市全部審議完成就會公告？"],["徐副署長燕興：對，如果大家都認為在這個過程中可以公告，我們就會公告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：副署長，本席要讓您了解一下，上個禮拜本席在來義高中借了一間教室主持一場會議，可能您也很清楚，因為我們原住民有很多、很多土地問題，而且非常難解，這些人引頸期盼，如果國土計畫法能按照原定的5月1日上路，他們的問題就可以解套，所以他們對於延後6年、又要繼續等6年真的非常無奈，因為他們已經等很久了。那幾戶人家很特別，因為他們那個地方都沒有所有權，更何況是水、電表，說難聽一點都是私接的，也沒有門牌號，真的很辛苦。","本席現在要特別說一下仁愛鄉的狀況，因為本席上上禮拜有去會勘過。南投縣仁愛鄉在紀錄上是最後一筆拿到鄉規的，這是當地的力行公墓，部落的村長、鄰長和所有民眾都一起來拜託，為什麼？您看一下這個土地的查詢資料，這裡的使用分區叫森林區。您也很清楚，按照非都變更編定的原則，這種森林區絕對沒有辦法變更為殯葬用地，所以他們當初一直在等這個鄉規、國土功能分區。因為他們過去想要申請殯葬量能計畫，但是一直沒有辦法，所以就在等這個國土計畫，這是他們唯一的解套，結果完了！又要等6年，但是這個殯葬量能提升計畫只編列到114年，也不知道有沒有下一期。其實在原鄉地區有很多類似的問題，原本以為5月1日就要上路的國土計畫法，可以讓這些歷史沉痾一一被解決，結果是沒辦法。所以本席要請教一下副署長，像這樣的狀況，您覺得該怎麼辦？"],["徐副署長燕興：關於這個案子的詳細狀況，例如是否還有什麼敏感的地方，這些我比較不清楚，這個個案會後我們再請同仁去看可以怎麼幫忙。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是到本席辦公室討論，看要怎麼協助解決嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。副署長，本席要請您看一個圖，一樣是國土計畫法，第十五條有規定「直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫每五年通盤檢討一次」，這部分沒有修正。但是你看這個圖，直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫在110年已經公告，現在問題來了，國土功能分區延後到120年，但是剛才本席說的鄉規，從110年就開始做了，一直到現在，您說也會繼續補助。現在就是像本席剛才唸的，直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫通盤檢討沒有修正，所以一樣是維持每五年檢討一次，預計是落在115年。本席現在就想問，鄉村地區整體規劃到底是要等120年的計畫，還是等115年的通盤檢討？"],["徐副署長燕興：應該是全面實施之後做通檢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席想要請教一下副署長的意見，為了不打結、也不違法，本席希望內政部乾脆以115年的通檢做為標準，也希望各縣市的國土功能分區可以先到先審，然後先公告核定。第二個部分，本席也希望內政部的殯葬量能提升計畫能夠持續提報、編列經費，因為很多地方都很辛苦，特別是本席提到的原住民族地區，從日本人來臺之後的室內葬改為戶外葬，又從戶外葬的土葬，現在又要改成火葬。因為我們一直在適應國家的法令，所以需要有一個適應期，我們希望政府能夠體恤繼續給予時間適應，因為我們所有人都願意跟上政府的政策計畫。副署長，可以嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：有關先審、先核定，剛剛已經說過，因為這是法的規定，我們必須依法處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可以以115年為基準嗎？"],["徐副署長燕興：現在反而沒辦法去做這件事情。但是因為已經有鄉規指導，還有區域計畫審查的相關配套，署長也有指示同仁盤整這些指引和準則，以及地方縣市在第一線碰到的問題，這部分我們會做調節，應該可以解決一部分的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。關於這兩個部分，聽起來你們是有不錯的態度表示，到時候到本席辦公室，再看要怎麼解決這些部落遇到的困難，好不好？"],["徐副署長燕興：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝副署長，謝謝主席。"],["徐副署長燕興：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。請國土署針對這個案件看能不能用鄉規的方式解套，好不好？","下一位請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖先翔","陳冠廷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴惠員"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、農業部部長、內政部首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就\n「鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00006"}}},{"id":"159713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9009473acfe56238a5547542dab5946a224b9e3eaef4bc7903342e813f5a017db975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:29:48 - 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謝謝主席 我請文化部李遠部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":15.216,"end":19.378,"text":"好部長好部長上一次在這裡質詢的時候我們很高興的在討論文化部終於今年度編出了史上最高的文化預算那因為這是賴清德總統的政見也是我競選立委的政見所以當時我們是非常的肯定但是我想今天經過"},{"start":37.662,"end":56.015,"text":"去年底在野黨對於我們國家總體預算的刪除刪減我們今天在這裡與其說是聽文化部的業務報告更不如說是在聽我們文化部經過在野黨刪除預算之後的宅損報告評估那我們"},{"start":57.156,"end":68.343,"text":"原本今年度加上前瞻首次突破了文化預算300億這感謝文化部所有同仁的努力但是經過了刪減之後目前文化部預算刪減11億 凍結34億"},{"start":72.566,"end":100.962,"text":"部長在爭取預算的過程當中曾經一度哽咽當時你對媒體說你彷彿看到台灣文化人的努力像是一顆珍貴的蛋在你的眼前被捏碎了那其實部長你也不是第一次擔任政府機關的文化首長過去你擔任過在柯文哲台北市長任內你擔任過文記會的董事兩次那過去你在台北市議會你的預算有沒有遇過這麼大幅度的刪除"},{"start":105.714,"end":127.161,"text":"你剛剛講到我過去在公務機關我沒有做過這是我第一次在公務機關工作文進會的董事就是以過去你在市議會的經驗你們在報告預算的時候有沒有被刪除過這麼大幅度的預算我沒有過任何預算經驗我過去的所有工作都是在電視台那我在文進會是辦一個學校也沒有預算"},{"start":128.281,"end":143.555,"text":"這第一次我第一次學習你第一次遇到對那過去我在台北市議會我們也審過文化局包括文基會的預算即便當時我的角色我是在野黨的民意代表那我們也不曾對執政黨的文化預算進行過這麼大幅度的刪除"},{"start":148.18,"end":156.914,"text":"刪減因為我們知道這個文化預算在使用的或者是他在造福的是文化工作者而文化工作者的成品他們的創作品"},{"start":159.136,"end":185.708,"text":"所造福的是我們全體國人甚至是世界的人類這是人類共同的藝術成就大家共享的文化資源所以我們都向來是非常尊重也希望政府可以努力的來扶持那在這次的刪除預算當中我看到幾個我覺得比較不合理的地方第一個有一些項目它是遭到全數刪除也就是把你整個業務停擺"},{"start":187.469,"end":205.349,"text":"不是只是給你一點建議清理檢討是把你全數刪除例如我們聯合典藏中心刪除的金額年度高達是一億元那這個典藏中心原先要做庫房跟修復空間提供包括史博館台史博文學館國影中心跟美術基金會來使用"},{"start":207.211,"end":226.984,"text":"那國營中心我非常重視因為去年度我們還去考察過當時國營中心就有提出來我們知道說有非常多我們的這一些過去的電影膠片海報新聞片數位修復片等等重要的影音資料庫我們都還有很多的藏品等待修復那當然是需要空間那現在"},{"start":229.105,"end":253.501,"text":"前兩天我們也看到陳承波的後代他說捐出了兩千多件的作品我們非常感謝那他是很信任他說多年來他們現在終於是等於要交手給政府了由政府來協助他們做後續的工作那典藏都是在修復裡面非常重要的一個條件那我們現在聯合典藏中心今年度的預算全數刪除會對我們造成什麼影響"},{"start":257.284,"end":283.407,"text":"其實講到這裡我覺得台灣的文化快速的發展的情況下我們本身政府的腳步有點跟不上譬如說他一捐就捐兩千件東西我們典藏根本來不及跟所以其實我心裡很焦急是我們做的每一個編列的預算都是在追趕前面不夠的狀態那民間這麼熱心的捐這麼多東西我們作為一個政府機構"},{"start":284.668,"end":310.419,"text":"你輕易的把它刪掉你一點都不知道這個錢是要幹什麼的這才是真的重點就是這個錢一點都不多我們已經有點來不及了所以當在野黨刪的時候我最痛心的是你知不知道這個錢要幹什麼我們台灣的文化過去都已經忽略很久了過去被忽略這麼久現在民間這麼多人想幫忙政府把他家裡的最珍貴的話"},{"start":311.559,"end":332.468,"text":"捐出來兩千多件他每一件都可以賣很多錢的你完全忽略了民間這些藝術家藝術家的後代對台灣文化多麼珍惜那我們政府騙個一億只為了一個典藏中心的開始你全部刪掉你再刪那一刻我不小心你想什麼"},{"start":333.652,"end":359.034,"text":"就是有一群人這麼努力的想要建立這個文化台灣的主體文化有一些人看都不看一眼其實我最難過的不是錢的問題是態度的問題這部分也希望文化部可以再多加強跟各政黨委員的溝通因為陳如剛部長所說其實去年度的預算在我們文化委員會審查的時候原先只刪了兩千萬"},{"start":359.915,"end":381.751,"text":"那到了第二輪由政黨之名提出的時候起初是要刪除八十億那是因為文化人站出來國人表達抗議所以最後他們才撤案最後還好災情控制到只刪了十一億但是我要講的是所以教育委員會當時國民黨的委員在野黨的委員也不是支持要刪八十億當時我們公司是刪兩千萬經過文化部的說明但是到二輪到政黨提案之後突然金額變那麼大"},{"start":388.547,"end":407.84,"text":"那我很遺憾當時教文委員會在野黨委員沒有站出來捍衛他們在委員會所做下的決定所以不得不說他們也是目前我們看到災情的共犯但是我們可以再努力的去溝通因為我想只要是在這個委員會裡面大家基於專業來審查都是支持文化預算的例如"},{"start":408.2,"end":412.763,"text":"還包含了我們這一次的這個表演藝術最後也被刪了兩千萬數字金額可能有人說乍看不大但我認為影響很大因為它這是延續性計畫這不是新增的本來每一年我們就是在補助我們台灣這些優秀的團體例如我們品牌團隊這個等於是台灣的旗艦藝文團體我們希望他們在國際上可以發光發亮原先我們是希望今年要可以補助更多團隊所以把預算提高沒有想到又被刪減所以恐怕"},{"start":437.017,"end":440.598,"text":"過去補助了雲門 補助明華園 補助朱忠敬打擊樂團 幽仁神谷等等現在恐怕沒有辦法如我們原先希望的去扶植更多的藝文團體那另外我看到視覺藝術的黑潮也被刪了兩千萬這個原先是補助我們台灣的藝術家例如賴淳淳藝術文教基金會本來今年去大阪市博這個要策展"},{"start":460.206,"end":480.22,"text":"然後例如我們也補助台灣跟澳洲的女性藝術交流計畫甚至有好地下藝術團就是花蓮在地的當代攝影家預計要去歐洲做交流這些都是我們非常支持的原先我們都希望可以補助更多的團體但是因為預算遭到了刪減同樣沒有辦法再增加那另外"},{"start":481.121,"end":507.536,"text":"除了三檢以外才化法我認為我也是相當的遊行我們剛講到的要補助藝文團體原先我們有一個計劃是要補助地方的這個優良的傑出藝文團體那跟地方政府來分別分攤補助金額那目前這樣看來我們這個會不會受到影響在未來才化法我們文化部預算可能會減少百分之三十的情況之下"},{"start":508.476,"end":529.758,"text":"就是預算一直往下排擠 地方團隊是第一個受害者地方團隊的錢 每個團隊的補助都很少我們經過這樣排擠之後 我們現在根本不能考慮地方團隊了那財務法法一下去 我們不但不能補助地方團隊我們所有的文資 所有的文化平權 原來我們可以"},{"start":530.399,"end":546.644,"text":"按照資源的多少去支援不同的縣市我在這裡一再強調我們完全不會考慮政治 政黨對於文化的分配我們正要去金門正要去表演我們不會去因為它的政治而"},{"start":547.344,"end":562.713,"text":"而刪減任何的補助所以這才是我最動心的就是你現在一刪之後我現在覺得我文化部本來可以稍微完成文化平權或者文化資產的經過一個災難我們立刻去補助它這些錢都是非常急迫的"},{"start":563.453,"end":583.966,"text":"好 部長最後我要講剛剛講到財化法可能對文資的保存會造成衝擊這一點我真的相當憂心因為目前我們文化部我們跟行政院爭取嘛六年一共160億的預算來補助地方的文資保存一年大概二十幾億那經過財化法劃分這樣把錢撥下去之後財化法最大問題是沒有討論市權"},{"start":586.227,"end":609.37,"text":"所以你這個錢撥給地方政府第一個他會不會撥到文化局我們都不確定那文化局會不會再去撥到要指定是就做文化資產的修復可能都不一定像文化部你們這個錢如果被強迫30%就是你文資修復的部分如果未來必須要撥給地方政府你們可不可以要求地方政府這個預算給你你就是必須要補助文資修復你們可不可以這樣要求"},{"start":610.15,"end":630.255,"text":"當然不行啊我們沒有權利啊我們沒有辦法這樣要求試選這就是我最擔心的因為我在我的選區台北市中正萬華區我非常多的文資像我們萬華西門的將軍廟也是文化部來幫我們補助文資修復如果未來才化法錢撥給地方政府本來應該要去補助文資修復的因為沒有討論試權只討論錢"},{"start":632.97,"end":639.376,"text":"那未來我們地方的這些文資修復如果預算不足地方政府又沒有編列的時候我們該何去何從呢"},{"start":640.814,"end":647.919,"text":"所以部長剛雖然您說你們沒有這樣的權利但我還是要拜託你們因為你們畢竟是全國文化最高的主管機關要拜託你們跟地方政府來好好討論一旦錢撥下去了文資修復文化部原先每年20億的預算要拜託地方政府千萬還是要去執行到來保存我們台灣的文化資產因為是我們全體國人所珍貴共同的文物好不好"},{"start":671.715,"end":686.997,"text":"好 因為我們最近要推出一個全台灣一個100大文化基地的目的就是想強化中央跟地方上共同去推一些文化基地的是這個目的我還希望去找到別的部會"},{"start":688.278,"end":710.512,"text":"幫我們一起來支援 預住在地方其實我們不要分中央跟地方中央本身的所有錢都用在地方上這點是不用分的那我覺得大家一直沒有搞懂好像文化部的錢是用在中央中央是不存在的他的錢都是用在每一個縣市 每一個點每一個宮廟 每一個古蹟這樣子"},{"start":714.875,"end":715.638,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時30分）謝謝主席，我請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。"],["李部長遠：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，上一次在這裡質詢的時候，我們很高興地在討論文化部終於在今年度編出了史上最高的文化預算，因為這是賴清德總統的政見，也是我競選立委的政見，所以當時我們是非常的肯定，但是，經過去年底在野黨對於我們國家總預算的刪減，我們今天在這裡，與其說是聽文化部的業務報告，更不如說是在聽我們文化部經過在野黨刪除預算之後的災損評估報告。原本今年度的預算加上前瞻特別預算，文化預算首次突破了300億，所以感謝文化部所有同仁的努力，但是經過了刪減之後，目前文化部預算刪減11億，凍結34億，部長在爭取預算的過程當中，曾經一度哽咽，當時你對媒體說，你彷彿看到臺灣文化人的努力，像是一顆珍貴的蛋，在你的眼前被捏碎了。部長，其實你也不是第一次擔任政府機關的文化首長，過去在柯文哲臺北市長任內，您擔任過文基會的董事兩次，過去你在臺北市議會，你的預算有沒有遇過這麼大幅度的刪除？"],["李部長遠：你剛剛講到我過去在公務機關，我沒有做過，這是我第一次在公務機關工作。"],["吳委員沛憶：你做過文基會的董事。"],["李部長遠：那個不算。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，就是以過去你在市議會的經驗，你們在報告預算的時候，有沒有被刪除過這麼大筆的預算？"],["李部長遠：我沒有過任何預算經驗，我過去的所有工作都是在電視台，我在文基會是辦一個學校，也沒有預算，所以我第一次學習……"],["吳委員沛憶：你第一次遇到？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。過去我在臺北市議會，也審過文化局預算，還包括文基會的預算，即便當時我的角色是在野黨的民意代表，我們也不曾對執政黨的文化預算進行過這麼大幅度的刪減，因為我們知道文化預算在使用的，或者是在造福的，是文化工作者，而文化工作者的成品，他們的創作品，所造福的是我們全體國人，甚至是世界的人類，就是人類共同的藝術成就，大家共享的文化資源，所以我們向來都是非常尊重，也希望政府可以努力來扶持。在這次刪減的預算當中，我看到幾個我覺得比較不合理的地方，第一個，有一些項目是遭到全數刪除，也就是把你整個業務停擺，不是只是給你一點建議，請你檢討，是把你全數刪除，例如：聯合典藏中心刪除的年度預算金額高達1億元，這個典藏中心原先要做庫房跟修復空間，提供史博館、臺史博、文學館、國影中心跟美術基金會來使用。國影中心我非常重視，因為去年度我們還去考察過，當時國影中心就有提出非常多過去的電影膠片、海報、新聞片、數位修復片等等重要的影音資料庫，還有很多藏品等待修復，當然需要空間。前兩天我們也看到陳澄波的後代捐出了兩千多件作品，我們非常感謝，他說多年來他們現在終於要交給政府，由政府來協助他們做後續的工作。典藏是在修復裡面非常重要的一個條件，現在聯合典藏中心今年度的預算全數刪除，會對我們造成什麼影響？"],["李部長遠：其實講到這裡，我覺得臺灣的文化在快速發展的情況下，政府的腳步有點跟不上，比如說，一捐就捐兩千多件東西，我們典藏根本來不及跟，所以其實我心裡很焦急的是，我們每一筆編列的預算，都是在追趕前面不夠的狀態，民間這麼熱心地捐這麼多東西，我們作為一個政府機構，你輕易的把它刪掉，你一點都不知道這個錢是要幹什麼的，這才是真的重點，這個錢一點都不多，我們已經有點來不及了，所以當在野黨刪的時候，我最痛心的是，你知不知道這個錢要幹什麼？我們臺灣的文化過去已經被忽略很久了，過去被忽略了這麼久，現在民間這麼多人想幫忙政府，把他家裡最珍貴的畫捐出來兩千多件，每一件都可以賣很多錢，你完全忽略了民間這些藝術家的後代對臺灣的文化多麼珍惜，我們政府編個1億，只為了典藏中心的開始，你全部刪掉，在刪的那一刻，我不曉得他們心裡在想什麼？有一群人這麼努力想要建立臺灣的主體文化，有一些人看都不看一眼，其實我最難過的不是錢的問題，是態度的問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：這部分也希望文化部可以再多加強跟各政黨委員的溝通，因為誠如剛剛部長所說，其實去年度的預算在我們教育及文化委員會審查的時候原先只刪了2,000萬，到了第二輪，由政黨之名提出的時候，起初是要刪除80億，那是因為文化人站出來，國人表達抗議，所以最後他們才撤案，之後還好災情控制到只刪了11億，但是我要講的是，教育委員會會議中，當時國民黨的委員、在野黨的委員，也不是支持要刪80億，經過文化部的說明，當時我們的共識是刪2,000萬，但是到第二輪，到政黨提案之後，突然金額變得那麼大，我很遺憾，當時教文委員會在野黨委員沒有站出來，捍衛他們在委員會所做下的決定，所以不得不說他們也是造成目前我們看到的災情的共犯，但是，我們可以再努力地去溝通，因為我想只要是在這個委員會裡面，大家基於專業來審查，都是支持文化預算的，包含了我們這一次的表演藝術，最後也被刪了2,000萬，數字金額可能有人說乍看不大，但我認為影響很大，因為這是延續性計畫，這不是新增的，本來每一年我們就是要補助我們臺灣這些優秀的團體，例如：品牌團隊，這個等於是臺灣的旗艦藝文團體，我們希望他們在國際上可以發光發亮，原先我們是希望今年可以補助更多團隊，所以把預算提高，沒有想到又被刪減，所以恐怕過去補助了雲門、明華園、朱宗慶打擊樂團、優人神鼓等等，現在恐怕沒有辦法如我們原先希望的去扶植更多的藝文團體。另外，我看到視覺藝術的黑潮也被刪了2,000萬，這個原先是補助我們臺灣的藝術家，例如：賴純純藝術文教基金會，本來今年去大阪世博策展。我們也補助臺灣跟澳洲的女性藝術交流計畫，甚至有好地下藝術團，就是花蓮在地的當代攝影家，預計要去歐洲做交流，這些都是我們非常支持的，原先我們都希望可以補助更多的團體，但是因為預算遭到了刪減，恐怕沒有辦法再增加。","另外，除了刪減以外，對於財劃法，我也是相當憂心，我們剛剛講到要補助藝文團體，原先有一個計畫是要補助地方的優良傑出藝文團體，跟地方政府來分別分攤補助金額，目前看來，這個會不會受到影響？未來根據財劃法，文化部預算可能會減少30%的情況之下。"],["李部長遠：就是預算一直往下排擠，地方團隊是第一個受害者，地方團隊的錢，每個團隊的補助都很少，經過這樣排擠之後，我們現在根本不能考慮地方團隊，財劃法一執行下去，我們不但不能補助地方團隊，我們所有的文資、所有的文化平權，原來我們可以按照資源的多少，去支援不同的縣市，我在這裡一再強調，我們完全不會考慮政治、政黨對於文化的分配，我們照樣去金門，照樣去表演，我們不會因為政治而刪減任何的補助，所以這才是我最痛心的，就是你這樣一刪之後，我就覺得我文化部本來可以稍微完成文化平權，或者在文化資產經過一個災難時，我們立刻去補助它，這些錢都是非常急迫的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。部長，最後我要講，剛剛講到財劃法的修改可能對文資的保存會造成衝擊，這一點我真的相當憂心，因為目前我們跟行政院爭取6年一共160億的預算來補助地方的文資保存，一年大概二十幾億，經過財劃法把財政劃分，把錢撥下去之後，財劃法最大問題是沒有討論事權，所以這個錢撥給地方政府，第一個，會不會撥到文化局，我們都不確定，那文化局會不會再去撥到要指定做文化資產的修復，可能都不一定。像文化部，我們這個錢如果不強迫30%用在文資修復的部分，如果未來必須要撥給地方政府，你們可不可以要求地方政府：「這個預算給你，你就是必須要補助文資修復。」你們可不可以這樣要求？"],["李部長遠：當然不行啊。我沒有權力啊。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們沒有辦法這樣要求，這就是我最擔心的，因為在我的選區臺北市中正、萬華區，有非常多的文資，像萬華西門的將軍廟，也是文化部來幫我們補助文資修復，如果未來根據財劃法，把錢撥給地方政府，本來應該要去補助文資修復的，因為沒有討論事權，只討論錢，那未來我們地方的這些文資修復，如果預算不足，地方政府又沒有編列的時候，我們該何去何從呢？所以部長，剛剛雖然您說你們沒有這樣的權力，但我還是要拜託你們，因為你們畢竟是全國文化的最高主管機關，要拜託你們跟地方政府來好好討論，一旦錢撥下去了，文資修復這部分，文化部原先每年有20億的預算，要拜託地方政府，千萬還是要去執行到，來保存我們臺灣的文化資產，因為是我們全體國人珍貴的共同文物，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，我們最近要推出一個全臺灣100大文化基地，目的就是想強化中央跟地方共同去推一些文化基地，是這個目的，我還希望去找到別的部會，幫我們一起來將資源挹注在地方，其實我們不要分中央跟地方，中央本身的所有錢都用在地方上，這點是不用分的，我覺得大家一直沒有搞懂，好像文化部的錢是用在中央，中央是不存在的，它的錢都是用在每一個縣市、每一個點、每一個宮廟、每一個古蹟。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝吳沛憶委員。部長請回。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9007597190d32e03fae7648dfe0a0275fc5b9e3eaef4bc79033d3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:30:27 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今年這個反正勞動部有示範要這個彈性育嬰假嘛對不對的政策讓勞工可以依個人需求請假那申請的次數從兩次增加到三次但據本席了解去年這個2024年上半年度僅有63家的企業或供應事業表示願意參加那相較於全國有163萬家中小企業是微不足道"},{"start":47.088,"end":57.217,"text":"那今年微幅成長89家這個公司立部門單位那請問次長面對這樣的微幅的增長這個如何評價這個政策的成效"},{"start":58.183,"end":78.73,"text":"然後以及你們應該要如何鼓勵更多企業參與是跟委員說明齁這個只是試辦所以他是採企業志願參加那事實上申請預留的今天的話我們去年總共有九萬三千多個新手爸媽來申請對那八十九家其實他是試辦到去年年底就結束那你們現在怎麼評價這個成效未來會怎麼怎麼去辦理要如何加強"},{"start":82.751,"end":100.012,"text":"我們在過去我剛剛何鮑威有講我們在過去兩個多月已經透過三種管道來搜集譬如說事辦單位請他們來座談諮詢第二個我們也發了所有89家事業單位的問卷調查第三我們主動去拜訪民間托育團現在有結論了嗎"},{"start":101.354,"end":130.814,"text":"我們現在正在想要收集更多的資料那預計什麼時候會收集完成或是檢討完成我們收集資料可能到那個下個月會到一個段然後我們現在目前針對內部已經收集到資料內部再討論我們希望未來那我們洪部長也有一個口頭表達我們希望朝更彈性的方式來辦理好那到時候有具體的這個你們討論完有一些相關具體的"},{"start":131.694,"end":160.655,"text":"结果再麻烦让本席办公室知道没有问题那另外次长也从统计数据上面来看女性和男性申请这个育婴留职停薪的比例从原本的这个超过四倍大概是6.8万跟1.5万到去年底为止有拉近到三倍本席是予以肯定但是这中间的改变主要是当然有政策的介入在110年7月本来投保薪资六成拉到八成数据虽然有改善但是我刚刚说虽然"},{"start":161.155,"end":183.917,"text":"拉到近三倍可是這個差距還是蠻大的所以顯示這個性別不平等的問題仍然蠻嚴重想要請教次長如何進一步進一步縮小這兩性申請育嬰流執停薪的差距是跟委員說明我們現在就是因為那個現在我們部內也正在奉行這個指示在研擬就業保險法的修法"},{"start":184.477,"end":205.903,"text":"那希望能夠把育嬰留子體驗津貼從現在那個新手爸媽各領完六個月之後可以再讓他們各多領一個月那這個我們正在內部在做這個討論所以我也只是接下來就是要問這個因為你們現在是延益延長一個月那你們現在延益增加一個月有預期達成的目標嗎這樣子夠嗎"},{"start":207.878,"end":222.39,"text":"我們我剛剛有跟委員說我們去年全年大概有九萬三千多名那個申請案件就新歐巴馬那我們希望未來所以你們預計的目標是就是修增加一個月的話你們預計成效如何"},{"start":222.967,"end":246.816,"text":"我們希望可以增加大概一定的我們認為一定會有一定的成比例的成長對我是認為估計的話要看我們那個出生嬰兒的一個情況對我是認為說要給可能要一次給到有感我覺得延長一個月不夠可能是要增加兩月從六個月增加到八個月那同時現行是由父母這個最常領六個月的今天是不是應該放寬到雙親均領滿至六個月"},{"start":249.637,"end":271.231,"text":"那我覺得這個訴求是不是也可以去研議因為我覺得如果一次一次一點一點這樣子的效果可能會很有限我們是希望真的讓年輕的父母跟尚未生育的這些父母更願意生養那把這個照顧工作視為一種公共財希望我們這邊是不是可以再進一步的研議一次給到有感而不是這種慢慢的慢慢的"},{"start":272.552,"end":289.486,"text":"像我也說明根據我們去年的研究我們有做大數據分析從2016年到2023年連續六七年的大數據分析我們有申請育嬰留職提供津貼期滿之後回歸職場工作的比例只有82%"},{"start":292.048,"end":312.679,"text":"82%裡面其實也只有58%是穩定就業有24%是不穩定就業就它會中斷就業所以我們也會認為如果在我們現在評估延長一個月多離一個月它的回歸職場的這個比例可能會稍微再向低一點如果要再確定這個數字是相關性嗎"},{"start":314.12,"end":339.249,"text":"我們的長期的我們那個去年長期的分析所以你的意思是說一次增加太多你擔心因為我們因為劉子庭今天的目的就不希望那個新手爸媽離開職場我們目的是要協助他留在職場但我們的長期的大數據分析發現82%也就是說我們擔心可是如果你這樣子那你現在增加這一個月不就是也是一樣會造成同樣的問題嗎"},{"start":341.11,"end":359.285,"text":"這個就是我們平衡考量的結果因為一方面很多民間團體希望要增加一點給付的那個時間可是我們也擔心如果給付一下太多他回到職場的比例會下降所以我們平衡之後增加一個月開始先這樣來做做看"},{"start":360.026,"end":385.447,"text":"我覺得這個部分請你們好好的再演繹一下確定這些相關的數字的可行的關聯性因為你現在你說增加一個月就會減少那增加兩個月好像又更加嚴重有嗎那是不是可以因為這個東西是不是可以給這些父母一次到位的有感也可以影響到他對於生育的意願那我想這兩者的關係你們可能要再請你們再去好好演繹一下一定我們都持續在"},{"start":386.347,"end":407.495,"text":"那個修正那也另外想要再請教這個我們衛福部次長跟我們勞動部次長那當然我們個人是支持這個照顧不離職剛剛有講到那我相信你們也都是這樣支持的對不對所以你們才會想這些事情但是我想還有一個部分就是一年中因為家庭照顧因素而離職的人數你們知道嗎"},{"start":411.569,"end":429.93,"text":"根據我們去年勞動部的工作場所的這個性別工作的調查大概因為這個沒有辦法去精確調查沒有辦法嘛對不對有考慮就曾經因為要照顧家人而考慮離職的比例去年的數據是大概有六成左右所以是非常的高"},{"start":430.33,"end":448.309,"text":"那我就是要跟你報告就是考慮並不是實際的因為實際調查因為你沒有實際的你沒有實際數據嘛所以你說這個考慮離職的比例就會很高那當然相對也很高因為我們在民間聽到的是很高的所以民團也一直有在倡議這個長期照顧安排假所以我想這個部分也是我本席也是非常支持"},{"start":448.849,"end":466.134,"text":"那所以也想要問我們的勞動部次長今年也進入著所謂的超高齡的社會那我想每個家庭也都會面臨到這樣所謂的長照議題也顯示我們長期照顧假的這個迫切性所以想要請教在勞基法中單獨列出長期照顧安排假有機會嗎"},{"start":467.967,"end":489.192,"text":"跟我的說明這個這個假如果跟家庭照顧假我們現在在性別平等工作法我知道但是這個是還會跟市價在一起嘛然後是七天為限可是這顯然是不夠嘛顯然是不夠嘛所以我才說是不是可以單獨把它列出來又或者是要增加我們所謂的家庭照顧假是跟我的說明我們那個"},{"start":490.932,"end":518.51,"text":"勞動部現在內部也在廣泛的聽取收集各方一些我們現在確實有關家庭照顧假這個方面我們在研議在討論是不是要往比較更彈性的方向來規劃是好所以這個部分你們什麼時候研議完成是不是可以也給本席的辦公室一個資訊是沒有問題什麼時候你們因為你剛剛說有在研議嘛那你們現在的打算什麼時候研議完因為這個事情好像從也好幾年了吧講了也講蠻久的"},{"start":520.775,"end":535.382,"text":"包委這個部分因為我們要通盤跟剛剛講的育嬰留庭救保法延長一個月的修法好一起來通盤考量對所以我們還需要一點時間那大概要多久的時間通盤考量可以有一個檢討"},{"start":536.727,"end":552.862,"text":"作為不然延誼太久了我們希望盡快不過因為跟委員說那個救保法因為流體延長一個月那個需要修法需要比較長的時間那那邊修法之後我們這邊加點照顧加往更彈性規劃這要配套的對那所以修法修法的這個進度進程是"},{"start":555.624,"end":575.655,"text":"現在怎麼規劃我們這個禮拜已經跟人事行政總署還有全序部已經約好時間應該就是今天下午要開會因為這個我們是負責勞工不能但人總跟全序部負責公教人員這個要一致一致的來協調所以我們今天會開會來協調這個步驟對好那因為時間我今天質詢到這謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝廖老闆謝謝次總"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時30分）謝謝主席，請我們的勞動部次長。"],["李次長健鴻：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：次長好。今年勞動部要試辦彈性育嬰假政策，讓勞工可以依個人需求請假，申請次數從2次增加到3次。但是根據本席的了解，去年2024年上半年度僅有63家企業或公營事業表示願意參加，相較於全國有163萬家中小企業可說是微不足道。今年微幅成長到89家公私立部門單位，請問次長，面對這樣的微幅增長，如何評價這個政策的成效？你們應該如何鼓勵更多企業參與？"],["李次長健鴻：向委員說明，這個只是試辦，所以採企業自願參加的方式，事實上，去年總共有九萬三千多位新手爸媽申請育嬰留職停薪津貼，至於89家其實是試辦到去年年底就截止了。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們現在如何評價這個成效？未來要如何辦理？要如何加強？"],["李次長健鴻：剛剛我在口頭報告時也講過，過去二個多月已經透過三種管道蒐集，第一個是請試辦單位參與座談諮詢，第二個是向89家事業單位發出問卷調查，第三個是我們主動拜訪民間托育團體。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在有結論了嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：目前我們正在蒐集更多的資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：預計什麼時候可以完成蒐集或完成檢討？"],["李次長健鴻：我們蒐集資料可能在下個月會到一個段落，此外，目前我們內部也已經針對蒐集到的資料進行討論，我們洪部長也有口頭表達，希望未來能朝更彈性的方式辦理。"],["廖委員偉翔：等你們討論完之後，如果有具體的相關結果，再麻煩讓本席辦公室知道，好嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外，從統計數據來看，女性與男性申請育嬰留職停薪的比例，原本是超過4倍，大概是6.8萬與1.5萬，到去年底為止拉近到了3倍，本席是予以肯定！"],["李次長健鴻：是，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：這中間的改變當然是有政策的介入，110年7月將原本投保薪資的六成拉到八成，數據雖然有改善，如同我剛剛所言，比例拉到近3倍，但這個差距還是滿大的，顯示性別不平等的問題仍然滿嚴重的。請教次長，如何進一步縮小兩性申請育嬰留職停薪的差距？"],["李次長健鴻：現在我們部內奉行政院指示，正在研擬就業保險法的修法，希望在新手爸媽各領完6個月的育嬰留職停薪津貼之後，可以再讓他們各多領1個月，目前我們內部正在進行討論。"],["廖委員偉翔：接下來就是要問這個，現在你們是研議要延長1個月，所以研議增加1個月有預期達成的目標嗎？這樣夠嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我剛剛有提到去年全年大概有九萬三千多名新手爸媽提出申請，我們希望未來增加……"],["廖委員偉翔：如果增加1個月，你們預計成效如何？"],["李次長健鴻：我們認為一定會有一定比例的成長，但是估計數字要看出生嬰兒的情況而定。"],["廖委員偉翔：我認為既然要給可能就要一次給到有感，延長1個月不夠，可能要增加2個月，也就是從6個月增加到8個月。同時，現行是父母最長領6個月的津貼，是不是應該放寬到雙親均領滿至6個月？我覺得這個訴求是不是也應該列入研議，否則，現在這樣一次一次、一點一點的效果可能會很有限。我們真的希望讓年輕的父母與尚未生育的夫妻更願意生養，把照顧工作視為一種公共財，希望你們是否可以再進一步研議，一次給到有感，而不是這樣慢慢的、慢慢的。"],["李次長健鴻：根據我們去年所做的研究，從2016年到2023年連續六、七年的大數據分析，申請育嬰留職停薪津貼期滿之後回歸職場工作的比例只有82%，在82%之中只有58%是穩定就業，還有24%其實是不穩定就業，也就是會中斷就業。因此根據我們的評估，延長1個月、多領1個月的津貼，他們回歸職場的比例可能會稍微再降低一點。如果要再……"],["廖委員偉翔：確定這個數字有相關性嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我們去年針對長期數據所做的分析。"],["廖委員偉翔：你的意思是一次增加太多會擔心……"],["李次長健鴻：對，擔心！因為育嬰留職停薪津貼的目的是不希望新手爸媽離開職場。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，還是希望他們留在職場。"],["李次長健鴻：我們的目的是要協助他們留在職場，但我們長期的大數據分析發現僅有82%，所以我們擔心如果……"],["廖委員偉翔：如果是這樣的考量，現在你要增加1個月不也是會造成同樣的問題嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：這個就是我們平衡考量的結果，一方面有許多民間團體希望能增加一點給付的時間，但我們也擔心一下給付太多會造成他們回到職場的比例下降，所以在我們的平衡考量後，決定從增加1個月開始，先這樣子做做看。"],["廖委員偉翔：我認為這個部分還是要請你們再好好研議一下。"],["李次長健鴻：是，一定會。"],["廖委員偉翔：確定這些數字的關聯性。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你說增加1個月就會降低回歸職場的比例，增加2個月好像又會更加嚴重，有嗎？這個津貼是不是可以一次到位讓這些父母有感，也會影響到他們的生育意願，針對這兩者的關係，請你們再好好研議一下。"],["李次長健鴻：一定，我們也都持續的滾動修正。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來要請教衛福部次長及勞動部次長，當然我們個人是支持照顧不離職，剛剛也有講到，相信你們也都是這樣支持，所以你們才會想出這些方法，對不對？但是一年中因為家庭照顧因素而離職的人數，你們知道嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：根據勞動部去年的工作場所就業平等概況調查，因為這個沒有辦法精確調查……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有辦法，對不對？"],["李次長健鴻：曾經因為照顧家人而考慮離職的比例，去年的數據大概有六成左右。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以是非常的高，我就是要向你報告……"],["李次長健鴻：這是指考慮而非實際的，因為實際調查……"],["廖委員偉翔：因為沒有實際數據，所以你說的考慮離職比例就會很高，當然相對也會很高，其實我們在民間聽到的也是很高，因此民團一直在倡議長期照顧安排假，本席也是非常支持。今年已經進入超高齡社會，每個家庭也都會面臨長照議題，顯示長期照顧假的迫切性，請問次長，有機會在勞基法中單獨列出長期照顧安排假嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我們在性別平等工作法已經有家庭照顧假。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，但這個是與事假在一起，而且是以7天為限。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：顯然是不夠、顯然是不夠，因此我才會提出是否可以將它單獨列出來，或是增加所謂的家庭照顧假？"],["李次長健鴻：勞動部內部正在廣泛聽取、蒐集各方意見，關於家庭照顧假的部分，我們正在研議、討論是否要往更具彈性的方向規劃。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個部分你們什麼時候研議完成？是不是也可以給本席辦公室一個資訊？"],["李次長健鴻：是，沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：什麼時候？因為你剛剛說已經在研議，打算什麼時候研議完成？這件事情好像也好幾年了，已經講滿久了。"],["李次長健鴻：因為這個部分要與育嬰留職停薪津貼延長1個月的就保法修法一起通盤考量，所以我們還需要一點時間。"],["廖委員偉翔：大概要多久的時間可以有通盤考量後的檢討作為，不然就研議太久了？"],["李次長健鴻：我們希望能夠儘快，但是就保法的育嬰留職停薪津貼修法需要比較長的時間，在那邊修完法之後，我們這邊的家庭照顧假往更彈性的方向規劃也需要配套，總之希望能夠儘快。"],["廖委員偉翔：修法的進度、進程，現在是如何規劃？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員，我們這個禮拜已經與人事行政總處及銓敘部約好時間，應該就是今天下午要開會。我們負責的是勞工的部分，人總與銓敘部則是負責公教人員的部分，這個要一致來協調，所以我們今天要開會協調這個步驟。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。因為時間的關係，今天我就質詢到這裡，謝謝。"],["李次長健鴻：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝次長。","接續請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9006251dbc6c29b769bb4606480da88618db9e3eaef4bc79033bfc666046cd716335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:27:40 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楊全勳發言 邀請祕書長我想請考選部跟選舉部一塊 我們共同討論 謝謝"},{"start":16.003,"end":18.465,"text":"我們現在討論用人機關的選採方式用人機關參與的選採過程是有一些國家我們來做討論比如說像美國、英國、新加坡都是由用人機關自辦考試"},{"start":36.723,"end":53.994,"text":"因此用人機關幾乎都是從選材的程序一開始他就整個全程的來參與根據用人的需求彈性設計不同的選擇方式包括了他的工作分析、資格審查、筆試、面試以及試用期"},{"start":54.634,"end":67.879,"text":"當然最重要的是他擁有了最終用人的決定權這個在其他國家有這麼做因此參與程度呢他是非常的高那麼我們目前當然是有考試院來做專責處理國家考試這個"},{"start":71.681,"end":89.422,"text":"考選人才所以因此要請教首先請教秘書長我們要怎麼樣來調整考試制度以達到考用合一的這個目標我們要怎麼樣才能夠確保到招募到的人那他這個人才是適合用人機關的請說明"},{"start":91.404,"end":109.83,"text":"謝謝委員 委員舉到這些國外的例子的確是重點那這凸顯出我國的這個考選制度公委員考選制度跟其他國家體制上很大的落差那所以它造成有這樣的一個疑慮委員關心的考院合一的問題所以從上一屆考試院到現在我們都很強調跟行政院之間的溝通那跟用人機關參與選材這個做法"},{"start":111.651,"end":131.32,"text":"這個非常重要用人機關現在沒有辦法有選擇權它只能有人分發來之後的訓練級合格的淘汰但是在前期的考試的部分我們現在有一些做法就是第一個現在就從核心職能的檢討怎麼去跟我們的考試的內容做連結"},{"start":132.441,"end":156.491,"text":"也就是說核心指針是用人機關要去界定的但我們的考試的科目跟命題大綱跟出題這個應該要對準工作上的需要而不是變成學術的因為你要是來的人才他培訓下去又不合格又不適用那這個真的是浪費時間也是糟蹋了這個人才第二個我們也希望就是說在過程當中也不是只有學術界的人來協助我們做專業的檢定"},{"start":159.853,"end":170.708,"text":"應該是用人機關也可以在這個過程中扮演一定的角色特別是多設計有沒有需要面試面試的時候我們也會強調用人機關一定要在其中這樣實務經驗的鑑定才能夠在面試當中發揮它的功能"},{"start":177.296,"end":189.63,"text":"國外他們有這樣的制度我們拿來做參考實質上在我們考試院在運作的時候能夠精準對準的這個機關所需要的也就是考用合一"},{"start":190.291,"end":219.091,"text":"這是非常的重要隨時去盤點這個進行方案務必要落實接下來我們要討論公務人員遭職場霸凌後親身的憾事發生當然我們不希望這種發生但是發生了之後 社會非常的滑爛在這樣的一個情況之下防治公務體系職場霸凌保修會最近在公務人員安全以及衛生防護的辦法修正草案"},{"start":219.871,"end":231.699,"text":"那麼你們也訂定了專節 明訂職場霸凌申訴處理的程序經預告七天後呢 七天並評估各界的意見保証會會持續跟用人機關單位來嚴明修正"},{"start":236.763,"end":250.459,"text":"並盡速的提出最適當的方案要報請考試院會來做核定那麼請教最後才送到這個立法院那請教目前的進度如何因為怎麼樣去落實申訴"},{"start":251.46,"end":270.508,"text":"以及諮商的輔導政策基層公務人員他可能會因為他的考機制度缺乏向上考核評鑑的制度以及商調制度等等的這些原因所以在面對不合理的一個職場待遇的時候他求助無門所以公務機關要留才現在已經非常的困難我們要怎麼樣去努力"},{"start":276.211,"end":289.381,"text":"維護公務人員的權益這一點是在結果錄裡頭非常的重要所以請教目前的進度如何那針對於這個落實申訴以及智商輔導的政策又是如何 請做說明好 委員好 跟委員說明目前我們在這個2月27號已經進行這個安全及衛生防護辦法的公告那"},{"start":305.717,"end":332.335,"text":"在此同時呢 同時已經召開了大概有四場的非常廣泛的在徵詢意見那此外呢 目前在安慰辦法的部分呢我們仍然還在持續的徵詢各方的意見不過呢 基本上安全防護辦法已經大致成形了那它的母法是保障法那保障法呢 目前呢我們也新增了很多的部分包含了職場霸凌定義"},{"start":333.436,"end":355.032,"text":"的入法然後呢當中有關於申訴的部分很清楚然後對於呢職場霸凌後續的究竟那諮商輔導的這一塊呢跟委員報告諮商輔導呢這個在整個職場霸凌的這個過程裡面呢它是屬於前端的防治跟事件一發生的過程那這個諮商輔導的部分呢在各機關裡面會根據"},{"start":356.809,"end":378.471,"text":"市場霸凌的這個防治呢立即採取只要機關知悉然後或者是透過別的方式知悉他馬上就會進行輔導那同時現在政府裡面有員工協助方案都可以啟動針對這兩塊的部分是本席非常的重視那照你剛剛所說的諮商輔導的部分本席認為如果依照目前這樣子執行似乎"},{"start":379.171,"end":405.134,"text":"我們還是很多的事件發生表示我們的方案還有待精進趁著現在正在整體性的一個整合跟討論我希望這兩塊的部分必須要好好的去精進出它的軌道出來讓它有所依才能夠真正的去保障我們的公務人員的一個權益請加油這個部分那你們把你們整合後的基礎方案也送交一份給本席"},{"start":406.054,"end":426.446,"text":"好 謝謝最後一個問題我想要請教就是台灣推動委員會也就是說研議增調公務人員的身心調適價上週任市長在這裡跟我一起來討論也說了3月17號這個方案已經提交公告了也提交給行政院那將來這個階段就是要匯考試院"},{"start":429.088,"end":456.421,"text":"那麼行政院方案在這個當中七天的試駕要挪出三天作為身心調試駕那機關身心調試駕是要給心 不能反對也不需要提出證明機關也不能在考機 這一點非常重要不能在考機等方面做出有害的一個處分所以請教秘書長 到目前為止我們的身心調試駕的立場及建立立場是什麼 請說說明"},{"start":459.266,"end":482.973,"text":"跟委員報告這個人事總署的討論過程都要全區部一起參與大家討論出這個方向之外所以這案子送到我們這邊我們會修請假規則還有相關的規定方向就是陳如我剛剛所提出的也是人事長在前上一次會議跟我討論的這個方向那麼考試院也是依照這樣子的一個方向跟立場"},{"start":483.913,"end":508.286,"text":"對 沒有錯 我們會修訂請假規則還有相關的規定好 那這個時間我們要加油因為本席認為保障公務人員的身心可以得到保障這是非常非常的重要而且他在請假的時候不可以被說刁難所以因此我們會特別來提出也就是說不能反對也不需要提出證明這個在上次跟人講我也謝謝考試院"},{"start":509.907,"end":510.548,"text":"我們現在整合完成就趕快來做修法的工作謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1057,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時27分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我想請考選部跟銓敘部一塊，我們共同討論，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：三位好。我們現在討論用人機關的選才方式，用人機關參與選才過程是有一些國家採取的方式，我們來討論，比如說像美國、英國、新加坡，他們都是由用人機關自辦考試，因此用人機關幾乎都是從選才程序一開始就全程參與，根據用人的需求，彈性設計不同的選擇方式，包括工作分析、資格審查、筆試、面試以及試用期，當然最重要的是他擁有最終用人的決定權，這個在其他國家有這麼做，因此參與程度非常高。我們目前當然是由考試院專責處理國家考試、考選人才。所以請教秘書長，我們要怎麼樣調整考試制度，以達到考用合一的目標？我們要怎麼樣才能夠確保招募到的人才適合用人機關？請說明。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。委員舉到這些國外的例子的確是重點，這凸顯出我國的公務員考選制度跟其他國家體制上很大的落差，所以它造成有這樣的疑慮。委員關心考用合一的問題，從上一屆考試院到現在，我們都很強調跟行政院之間的溝通，跟用人機關參與選才這個作法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常重要。"],["劉秘書長建忻：用人機關現在沒有辦法有選擇權，它只能進行有人分發來之後的訓練及合格的淘汰，但是在前期的考試部分，我們現在有一些作法，第一個，現在就從核心職能檢討，怎麼去跟我們考試的內容連結；也就是說，核心職能是用人機關要去界定的，我們的考試科目、命題大綱跟出題，這個應該要對準工作上的需要，而不是變成學術的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對準非常的重要，因為要是來的人才培訓下去不合格、不適用，這個真的是浪費時間，也是糟蹋了這個人才。"],["劉秘書長建忻：第二個，我們也希望在過程當中，不是只有學術界的人來協助我們做專業的檢定，應該是用人機關也可以在這個過程中扮演一定的角色，特別是多設計有沒有需要面試，面試的時候，我們也會強調用人機關一定要在其中，透過實務經驗的鑑定才能夠在這個面試當中發揮它的功能。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：秘書長，你現在所說的，國外有這樣的制度，我們拿來參考，實質上考試院在運作的時候能夠精準對準機關所需要的，也就是考用合一，這是非常重要的。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，這個需要用人機關一起來參與。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：隨時去盤點精進方案。"],["劉秘書長建忻：現在有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：務必要落實。","接下來我們要討論公務人員遭職場霸凌後輕生的憾事，當然我們不希望這種事發生，但是發生了之後，社會非常的譁然。在這樣的情況之下，為防治公務體系職場霸凌，保訓會最近預告了公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法修正草案，訂定專節明定職場霸凌申訴處理程序，經預告7天並評估各界的意見，保訓會會持續跟用人機關單位研議修正，並儘速提出最適當的方案，要報請考試院會核定，最後才送到立法院。請教目前的進度如何？怎麼樣去落實申訴以及諮商的輔導政策？基層公務人員可能會因為他的考績制度、缺乏向上考核評鑑的制度，以及商調制度等等這些原因，所以在面對不合理的職場待遇的時候，他求助無門。公務機關要留才，現在已經非常的困難，我們要怎麼樣去努力維護公務人員的權益？這一點在結果論裡頭非常重要，所以請教目前的進度如何？針對落實申訴以及諮商輔導的政策又是如何？請說明。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：委員好。跟委員說明，目前我們在2月27號已經公告安全及衛生防護辦法，在此同時已經召開大概四場，非常廣泛的徵詢意見，此外，目前在安衛辦法的部分，我們仍然還在持續徵詢各方的意見，不過，基本上安全防護辦法已經大致成形了，它的母法是保障法，保障法目前我們也新增很多部分，包含職場霸凌定義的入法，當中有關於申訴的部分很清楚，然後對於職場霸凌後續的救濟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：申訴很清楚，那諮商輔導這一塊呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，諮商輔導在整個職場霸凌的過程裡面，它是屬於前端的防治跟事件一發生的過程，諮商輔導的部分在各機關裡面會根據職場霸凌防治立即採取，只要機關知悉或者是透過別的方式知悉，馬上就會進行輔導，同時現在政府有員工協助方案，都可以啟動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，這兩塊是本席非常重視的部分，照你剛剛所說的諮商輔導，本席認為，如果依照目前這樣執行，似乎我們還是有很多事件發生，表示我們的方案還有待精進。趁著現在正在整體性的整合跟討論，我希望這兩塊必須要好好精進它的軌道，讓它有所依，才能夠真正保障我們公務人員的權益，這個部分請加油。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們把整合後的基礎方案也送交一份給本席，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題我想要請教，健康臺灣推動委員會研議增調公務人員身心調適假，上週人事長在這裡跟我一起討論，也說了3月17號這個方案已經提交公告，也提交給行政院，這個階段就是要會考試院。行政院方案在這個當中，7天的事假要挪出3天做為身心調適假，機關的身心調適假要給薪，不能反對，也不需要提出證明，機關也不能在考績（這點非常重要）等方面做出有害的處分。請教秘書長，到目前為止，我們對身心調適假的立場及建議是什麼？請說明。"],["劉秘書長建忻：請部長說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，可以。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，人事總處的討論過程都有邀銓敘部跟機關一起參與，大家討論出這個方向出來，所以這個案子送到我們這邊，我們會修請假規則，還有相關的規定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以方向誠如我剛剛所提出的……"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也是人事長在上一次會議跟我討論的這個方向？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：考試院也是依照這樣子的方向跟立場？"],["施部長能傑：對，沒有錯，我們會續修訂請假規則，還有相關的規定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個時間我們要加油。"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席認為讓公務人員的身心可以得到保障，這是非常非常的重要，而且他請假的時候不可以被刁難，因此我們特別提出，也就是說，不能反對，也不需要提出證明，這個在上次跟人事長……我也謝謝考試院，部長在這邊也認同這個立場跟方向，我們現在整合完成，就趕快來做修法的工作，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：是。"],["主席：謝謝，我們接下來先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時36分）","繼續開會（11時41分）"],["主席：我們接著開始。","下一位請翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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經理部次長來 叫次長去"},{"start":4.957,"end":33.542,"text":"後面還有財政部跟這個財政部副部長這後面還有經貿談判辦公室這個市長你好委員好關於金門這個商圈這個議題金門商圈這個議題就是經濟部之前有持續在協助我們金門做商圈的這個活絡經濟112年分別幫助我們後埔 沙美那113年幫助後埔 沙美列嶼經營這些商圈那時候本席有請這個那時候叫中小企業處現在是"},{"start":34.302,"end":50.294,"text":"從小就是新創署去金門做振興行銷的規劃那時候做法是用免費發放200塊的數位購物金就用行動支付的方式希望商家導入這種行動支付來刺激經濟"},{"start":54.698,"end":69.716,"text":"我們看今年度經濟部的商業發展署還是有擬定活絡商圈的計畫來幫助各地的商圈現在是商業發展署做我們的離島經濟你們不知道有沒有了解離島的經濟部分因為我們離島人少"},{"start":71.978,"end":91.388,"text":"整個經濟的發展都比較潛疊那時候比較依賴外來因為人少消費相對少市場是很潛疊的比較仰賴外來的觀光客所以商圈要發展特色我也跟貴部的中紀署的署長也有討論過就我們的很多條件都"},{"start":92.188,"end":115.268,"text":"比較劣勢 離島地區條件都比較劣勢之前因為我們用的是行動支付這個部分所以我們在想說 這個部分可能再想看看這後面我會提到 基本上用的也是相當少有一些劣勢 有一些因為因素的關係所以我想跟您請教 先請教說這個部分有沒有打算怎麼來協助我們離島的經濟的發展"},{"start":119.433,"end":143.1,"text":"報告委員因為這個議題我不是很熟悉但是我認為說現在要這個活絡商圈本來就是經濟部要推動的業務當然也要包括進門地區另外呢您有提到這個這個要用數位的部分我們現在經濟部的重點就是幫助我們的中小企業要數位化智慧化這個部分"},{"start":144.02,"end":165.635,"text":"容委員我回去以後再找中小企業署跟商業署來對可以特別來因為金門地區相對商家也少事實上可以當作一個你們可以實驗的可以優先推的地方是比較容易成功的這個可能要請你們回去思考一下我們請財政部我請教一下這個小規模營業人導入行動支付的這個部分"},{"start":167.822,"end":192.607,"text":"這個部長你們這個小規模營業人導入行動支付的租稅優惠是延長到今年底然後就是可是根據財政部你們的統計從2018年推動到今這個行動支付這個7年小規模營業人大概是50萬家到今年1月底只有19000家有導入可見這個推的效果很差你們的當然你們又給1%的這個租稅優惠"},{"start":195.467,"end":203.471,"text":"是不是因為誘因不足呢?還是什麼原因呢?這個小規模行動支付的部分其實我們一直希望小規模營業人能導入行動支付所以在營業稅的部分雖然它有銷售超過20萬也可以用1%的這個來查訂稅額來課徵營業稅這個部分是我們一直在鼓勵的部分那我想效果一定有啦 效果是一定有"},{"start":223.161,"end":224.523,"text":"金門地區更少 金門地區才0.4% 16000家只有74家島嶺"},{"start":240.003,"end":243.847,"text":"那為什麼呢因為金門地區根據離島建築條例它在銷售交付的交售這個當地的貨物的話它是免徵營業稅的所以這個誘因對我們是沒有用的嘛對金門來說它可能雖然有這個但是"},{"start":256.118,"end":285.157,"text":"可是未來消費者可能會希望用這個行動支付來來購買東西會對他來說很方便那我覺得消費者的要求也是很重要的所以我的意思就是說我們配合這個經濟部這一邊就是說因為你們這個誘因太少我們等於是免徵營業稅然後你又這個給他一趴這跟你們是零嘛那沒有誘因那我覺得這個行動支付對這個整個國家發展其實也是很重要啦所以我們提出這個日本跟韓國的案例給你們看他們那時候日本在2019年修正消費"},{"start":286.438,"end":298.771,"text":"稅法的時候還提出電子智慧站商家導入的這個費用和手續費消費者還可以得到2到5%的實質回饋那整個行動事務比例就激增了韓國也藉由買賣商使用這個提供這個租稅優惠所以請你們大概"},{"start":302.415,"end":316.627,"text":"兩個部會回去都幫我們想一下可不可以提出一個更大誘因的方案的設計以金門可以做一個實驗的起點讓金門的離島可以優先事辦然後了解的話看怎麼再推往整個台澎金這樣有沒有問題"},{"start":318.468,"end":333.141,"text":"委員提出的建議我們都會來演繹大概需要多久的時間呢這個部分是不是我們可以會同經濟部一起是不是給我們三個月的時間三個月的時間給我們一個答案現在我們請經貿談判辦公室議務總代表請"},{"start":341.693,"end":360.689,"text":"原副總談判代表我看我們今天我其實今天蠻高興的我看到今天很多我們的這個不管部會首長也好還是我們這些各部會的次長還有這個談判的這個副代表都是女性啊女性都有看到吧女性很優秀這個很多優秀的女性喔不錯這個川普對等關稅可能會影響我們的"},{"start":362.35,"end":366.973,"text":"汽車業 剛也有很多委員有提到剛也提到 財經院說影響汽車跟農產品剛也再提到說汽車的進口的關稅是我國進口汽車的關稅是17.5%然後這個出口到台灣的汽車當然沒什麼出口相對的很少出口到美國的關稅是2.5%那這兩個相差很大"},{"start":383.323,"end":404.533,"text":"那如果以對等關稅互惠的概念以美國川普總統他要把他的製造業留在美國Mega的做法Make America Great Again他要這樣的做法我想可能在這個汽車關稅的部分可能會變成是我們後面不知道有沒有機會談判啦或者是他可能直接要求的這種方向你認為呢"},{"start":407.305,"end":435.039,"text":"我們目前觀察到美國的做法呢他可能就是4月2號向汽車關稅會先上路那因為他的可能的策略上面就是可能公佈之後然後再來跟個別的國家進行談判因為我們跟他的差距太大了我們那邊2.5他這邊17.5進來嘛一的就是我們要他會讓我們提高我們的但我們的出口量很少所以影響很小或者是他要幫助他的汽車出口嘛他會要求我們17.5往下降嘛那因為對於"},{"start":436.219,"end":463.646,"text":"進口汽車這個關稅的部分包括本國這個部分其實我們跟財政部也部長 財政部我們也談了很多次就是財政部以前也就回覆過因為我們都一直覺得國內的這個汽車實在是價錢太高真的比出這個很多國家我們的汽車汽車也是人民很重要的負擔房子 汽車我們汽車這麼貴事實上的確有必要讓人民減輕負擔所以我們一直希望說這個部分是不是財政部有回覆過我們都希望這個關稅的部分或者"},{"start":465.346,"end":479.913,"text":"財務部一直回答都一樣就是說電動車免什麼貨物稅都有講那我們也不是說要偏影響到國內的這個汽車產業那至少這個關稅部分是不是也可以要隨之考慮調整或者你們還是會繼續堅守防線"},{"start":482.748,"end":506.683,"text":"我覺得我們還是要等4月2號得到的我們當然知道你要等4月 等到那個新的但是不是等他新的USTR的那個代表上來以後你才開始做準備嘛我們總是要知道你有沒有做相關的這個準備啦或者說你們對即將面臨的這個像川普總統他常常當然 因為我們的跟他順差實在是排的比較前面嘛即將面臨 不然你們覺得"},{"start":507.703,"end":531.634,"text":"剛剛我們說汽車跟農業當然都是媒體的相關報導那不然以你的判斷哪一些產業比較可能受到影響對台灣來講我覺得整體來說川普政府現在在做的事情是像汽車關稅跟他之前的鋼鋁稅是用同一個232法案而公佈的國家安全稅那接下來要談的對等關稅是另外一個概念而產生出來的"},{"start":531.954,"end":548.953,"text":"每一個國家會有個單一的稅率所以我們必須要等到4月2號它綜合全部都公布之後那因為Rubio美國Rubio特別有提到說等到他們4月2號公布之後美國跟這些雙邊的這個關係才會有一個公平的新的談判貿易基礎"},{"start":550.114,"end":569.466,"text":"我們不是我們今天請你來當然就不是在等他公佈之後我們就這樣請你先預作準備預作判斷那我們想請你讓我們知道因為我們剛剛看了其實我也看了你們的整個這個報告寫的是算是很很簡略啦基本上也是等於沒寫什麼我們想說你們有沒有做相關準備哪一些的產業可能要做"},{"start":570.326,"end":593.884,"text":"相關的準備比如說像我看這個汽車可能大家的媒體也是這樣講汽車啦 農產品可能是他在乎那我們還有沒有其他產業會受到影響比如說我剛剛看我們這個相關部會報告經濟報告我們出口很多很大一部分是晶片嘛這個半導體產業那這個產業有沒有可能受到影響或者是還有其他產業比較可能受到影響的產業的這個順序啊相關的你們應該也有相當的準備吧"},{"start":597.366,"end":597.847,"text":"所以今天給的報告相當簡略"},{"start":612.366,"end":636.92,"text":"看不出你們有什麼充分的準備跟檢討我是寧願相信因為談判有很多東西是不適合事先揭露要當作留作當你談判的籌碼我寧願正面的這樣相信所以我們希望說如果這個汽車到時候汽車關稅如果要調整那經濟部一心一意考慮這個本土汽車產業到時候也要考慮怎麼樣來調適什麼來協助"},{"start":640.322,"end":648.877,"text":"那這個籌碼就留在您的手上了好 謝謝好 謝謝陳立正委員的質詢下一位請黃恩珊珊委員質詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":739,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時25分）謝謝主席，辛苦了。請經濟部次長先來吧！"],["主席：江次長，請。"],["陳委員玉珍：後面還有財政部……"],["主席：財政部莊部長。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個是後面啦，還有經貿談判辦公室。次長你好。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：關於金門商圈這個議題，經濟部之前有持續協助我們金門商圈活絡經濟，112年分別幫助了我們後浦、沙美，113年幫助了後浦、沙美、烈嶼、金陵這些商圈，當時本席有請那時候叫做中小企業處，現在是中小新創署去金門做振興行銷的規劃，那時候的做法是免費發放200塊的數位購物金，就是用行動支付的方式，希望商家導入行動支付來刺激經濟。我們看今年度經濟部商業發展署還是有擬定活絡商圈計畫來幫助各地的商圈，現在是商業發展署在做，對於我們的離島經濟，您不知道有沒有了解？關於離島的經濟，因為我們離島人少，整個經濟的發展都比較淺碟，那時候比較依賴外來觀光客，因為人少，消費相對少，市場是很淺碟的，比較仰賴外來的觀光客，所以商圈要發展特色，我也跟貴部的中企署署長討論過，我們很多條件都比較劣勢，離島地區條件都比較劣勢。因為之前用的是行動支付，所以我們在想這個部分可能要再想看看，後面我會提到，金門用的也是相當少，有一些劣勢，有一些因素的關係。我想先跟您請教，這部分有沒有打算怎麼樣來協助我們離島的經濟發展？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，因為這個議題我不是很熟悉，但是我認為現在要活絡商圈，這本來就是經濟部要推動的業務，當然也包括金門地區。另外，您提到要用數位的部分，現在經濟部的重點就是幫助我們的中小企業數位化、智慧化，這個部分容我回去以後再找中小企業署跟商業署來共同討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，可以特別討論，因為金門地區的商家相對少，事實上你們可以當作一個實驗，是可以優先推的地方，這是比較容易成功的。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個可能要請你們回去思考一下。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：請財政部，我要請教一下小規模營業人導入行動支付這個部分。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，你們這個小規模營業人導入行動支付的租稅優惠延長到今年底，可是根據財政部的統計，從2018年推動至今，行動支付推動7年，小規模營業人大概是50萬家，到今年1月底只有1萬9,000家有導入，可見推的效果很差，當然你們有給1%的租稅優惠，是不是因為誘因不足呢？還是什麼原因？針對這個小規模行動支付的部分。"],["莊部長翠雲：其實我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：臺灣的行動支付有點慢。"],["莊部長翠雲：希望小規模營業人能導入行動支付，所以在營業稅的部分，雖然他們銷售額超過20萬，也可以用1%的查定稅額來課徵營業稅，這個部分是我們一直在鼓勵的，那……"],["陳委員玉珍：但效果很差、成效很差。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想效果一定有，您剛剛提到……"],["陳委員玉珍：50萬家只有大概1.9萬家，算是很差啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：應該不只吧，因為光……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你們財政部的資料。"],["莊部長翠雲：光金門地區……"],["陳委員玉珍：金門地區更少，我就要跟你提到我們金門地區更少，金門地區才0.4%，1萬9,000家只有74家導入。"],["莊部長翠雲：為什麼呢？因為金門地區根據離島建設條例……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為免徵營業稅嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：他們在銷售、交付當地貨物是免徵營業稅的。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，所以這個誘因對我們是沒有用的嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：對金門來說，他們可能是覺得……"],["陳委員玉珍：等於是沒有誘因啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：雖然有這個，但是……可是未來消費者可能會希望用行動支付來購買東西，這對他們來說會更方便，消費者的要求也是很重要的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我的意思就是，我們配合經濟部，因為你們的誘因太少，等於是免徵營業稅，然後你又給他們1%，這根本是零嘛，沒有誘因，我覺得行動支付對整個國家發展其實也是很重要，所以我們提出日本跟韓國的案例給你們看，日本在2019年修正消費稅法的時候，提出電子支付業者和商家導入的費用和手續費，消費者還可以得到2到5%的實質回饋，整個行動支付比例就激增；韓國也藉由對買賣雙方使用電子支付金額皆提供租稅優惠。所以請你們兩個部會回去都幫我們想一下，可不可以提出一個有更大誘因的方案的設計，以金門做為一個實驗的起點，讓金門離島可以優先示範，了解後再看怎麼推廣至臺澎金馬。這樣有沒有問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員提出的建議，我們都會來研議，好不好。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，大概需要多久的時間？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們可以會同經濟部一起，是不是給我們三個月的時間，好嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：好，三個月的時間給我們一個答案。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝您。","接著請經貿談判辦公室。"],["主席：請顏副總代表。"],["陳委員玉珍：其實我今天蠻高興的，看到很多不管是部會首長也好，還是各部會次長、談判副代表都是女性啊！你有看到吧，女性很優秀喔，很多優秀的女性，不錯。","川普的對等關稅可能會影響我們的汽車業，剛剛也有很多委員提到，台經院說會影響汽車業跟農產品。剛才一再提到汽車的進口關稅，我國進口汽車的關稅是17.5%，臺灣的汽車當然沒什麼出口，相對很少，出口到美國的關稅是2.5%，這兩個相差很大。如果以對等關稅互惠的概念，美國川普總統要把製造業留在美國，MAGA（Make America Great Again）的做法，他要這樣的做法，我想在汽車關稅的部分，我們後面不知道有沒有機會談判，或者他可能直接要求這種方向，你認為呢？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們目前觀察到美國的作法，4月2日汽車關稅會先上路，因為他的策略可能是在公布之後，再來跟個別的國家進行談判。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我們跟他的差距太大了，我們2.5%出口，他們進來17.5%，either就是他們要求提高我們的稅率，但我們的出口量很少，所以影響很小；或者他要幫助美國的汽車出口，會要求我們從17.5%往下降。","關於進口汽車關稅，包括本國的部分，事實上我們跟財政部也談了很多次，財政部以前就回復過。我們一直覺得國內的汽車價錢實在太高，真的比諸很多國家，國內汽車價錢太高，汽車也是人民很重要的負擔，像房子、汽車，汽車這麼貴，的確有必要讓人民減輕負擔。所以我們一直希望汽車關稅調整，財政部的回復一直都一樣，都是講電動車免貨物稅。我們也不是要影響國內的汽車產業，至少關稅部分是不是也可以考慮隨之調整，或者你們還是會繼續堅守防線？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我覺得我們還是要等4月2日得到的關稅政策後……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們當然知道你要等4月2日新的政策，但是不是等他新的USTR代表上來以後，你才開始做準備，我們總是要知道你有沒有做相關的準備。川普總統常常有新政策，因為我們跟美國的順差實在是排得比較前面，對於即將面臨的關稅調整，媒體相關報導說汽車業跟農業會受影響，不然以你的判斷，哪一些產業比較可能受到影響？對臺灣來講。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我覺得整體來說，川普政府現在在做的事情，像汽車關稅跟之前的鋼鋁稅，是用同一個232法案而公布的國家安全稅。接下來要談的對等關稅，是另外一個概念而產生出來的，每一個國家會有一個單一稅率，所以我們必須等到4月2日全部都公布。因為美國Rubio有特別提到，等到4月2日公布之後，美國跟這些雙邊的關係才會有一個公平的、新的談判貿易基礎。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們今天請你來，當然就不是在等他公布之後，我們要請你先預做準備、預做判斷。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們都有在預做準備。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們想請你讓我們知道，我看了你們整個報告，寫得算是很簡略，基本上也等於是沒寫什麼。我們想知道你有沒有做相關準備？哪一些產業可能要做相關的準備，比如我看可能是汽車業，當然媒體也是這樣講，汽車、農產品可能是他們在乎的，還有沒有其他產業會受到影響？比如說，我剛剛看相關部會、經濟部的報告，我們出口很多很大一部分是晶片、半導體產業，這個產業有沒有可能受到影響？或者還有其他產業比較可能受到影響，相關受影響產業的順序，你們應該也有相當的準備？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想我們經貿辦負責的就是貿易政策的談判，就您剛剛提到的這些產業面，加上貿易政策，我們都作了通盤的準備跟檢討。所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是今天給的報告相當簡略，完全看不出你們有什麼充分的準備跟檢討。我是寧願相信，因為談判有很多東西不適合事先揭露，要留作你談判的籌碼，我寧願正面的這樣相信。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們希望到時候汽車關稅如果要調整，經濟部一心一意考慮的本土汽車產業，到時候也要考慮怎麼樣調適、怎麼來協助，這個籌碼就留在你的手上了。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00001"}}},{"id":"159709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90005d17bdb4e79e7d51a80f058510e45acb9e3eaef4bc79033420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:13:11 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只是因為說我們是美國第七大的貿易夥伴所以有媒體就按照這個把台灣列進去了但是川普還沒有宣布嘛 對不對那副總裁 這個川普有宣布了嗎沒有宣布嘛所以我就覺得很奇怪啊這川普都還沒有宣布說台灣是已經被列入骯髒15國的名單了結果今天我們這一個"},{"start":95.473,"end":121.583,"text":"在財委會要報告的這一個專題報告就說好像台灣已經被列入骯髒15國的名單了這個如果川普看到就說我都還沒有宣布啊那怎麼這個台灣立法院的財委會已經幫我宣布了台灣已經被列入了骯髒15國名單了我們可以因應我們想說如果有可能被列入的話那台灣該怎麼做這我是可以接受的但是台灣還沒有被列入嘛"},{"start":123.288,"end":135.442,"text":"那請問一下這個因為川普政策的不確定性也蠻高的那之前這個央行的總裁有來這個裁委會還有提到他說啊"},{"start":137.531,"end":149.495,"text":"這個台灣被列入這個骯髒十五國的機率並不高因為他的看法是說美國的平均稅率是3.3%那台灣是6.5%但是用加權平均稅率來看美國是2.2%台灣是1.7%所以他認為說台美是互補的不是說是不公平的貿易"},{"start":164.6,"end":170.784,"text":"那所以呢他認為啊我們央行總裁認為說這個台灣呢被列入這個骯髒15國的這個機會呢是不大"},{"start":173.998,"end":195.16,"text":"那這個我問部長好了,因為問副總裁不好回應,因為總裁講的話來,我問一下部長,那你是否認同這個總裁他所說的話我想總裁說的一定都有所依據而且我們如果用單純的平均名目關稅稅率當然會比美國高,可是你必須要考量"},{"start":195.68,"end":208.703,"text":"各項貨品的進口值所以我們用貿易加權平均關稅稅率那事實上如果用貿易平均加權關稅稅率我們是比美國低的那當然另外在農產品的部分雖然我們會比它高但是在工業產品的部分其實我們只有1.4%而且從美國進口的加權平均關稅稅率我們是2%然後另外我們主要進口的還是工業產品"},{"start":223.126,"end":241.073,"text":"而供應產品裡面有大部分我們是雙方都是零稅率的好那所以部長所以你也贊同這個認同總裁所說的這句話機率不高就對了機率不高但還是有啦不是說完全沒有嘛但是是否認同總裁所說的"},{"start":242.581,"end":270.118,"text":"我們希望是這樣子 當然到時候美國怎麼出手我們還是要密切的觀察 密切的關注是啊 因為媒體是說4月2號才公布啦所以我們也不用搶先在川普還沒公布之前就說他台灣已經列入了這個骯髒十五國這個名單裡面但是因為我提到就是說這個川普他的這個政策有很多的不確定性他也說有可能會有一些豁免或是例外但是萬一啦"},{"start":270.878,"end":278.369,"text":"結果不幸台灣被列入骯髒這15國部長認為有哪一些產業會受到影響第一個他要對哪一些產品要加徵關稅"},{"start":287.338,"end":298.043,"text":"第一個就是說會加關稅嘛對 加徵關稅是對哪些產品那第二個就是說它是不是對所有的國家都一樣的去加徵不一樣的就台灣好了就台灣如果認為說如果要各點關稅的話你認為有哪些產業可能會受到影響"},{"start":304.605,"end":329.46,"text":"這個部分我們其實密切關注我們對於所有的他所目前所釋放出來的相關的訊息我們都一直在關注而且會去掌握然後也會去分析對國內的相關產業會有什麼樣的影響那在行政院的經貿台美經貿工作小組會都密切都一直非常密集的在開會那相關的對策也都有主席不好意思時間暫停我可不可以請經濟部的次長經濟部的次長"},{"start":338.956,"end":367.873,"text":"好 謝謝主席那次長 相同問題我再問你那如果萬一被列入安裝十五國的時候台灣有哪些產業會受到影響在行政院的台美經貿小組都有討論到所以我們也有擬定各種的方案如果真的有被列入的話那您認為有哪一些那我具體問好了啦這個有這個台積運的院長他有講說如果被列入的話汽車跟農產品的影響會很大那請問一下這個部長 次長的意見"},{"start":369.259,"end":388.564,"text":"最主要是因為台美的汽車的關稅是有差距的所以呢但是呢我們並沒有出口整車到美國我們都是零組件嘛我們出口美國的是沙灘車並沒有在這一次昨天川普政府公布的這個汽車的這個名單好那我再請教一下莊部長現在這個車子從美國進來"},{"start":394.862,"end":415.847,"text":"包含關稅跟貨物稅大概要接近40%左右吧沒有錯我們的關稅是17.5%加上貨物稅但是還是要跟委員報告從美國進口的車子大概有一半我們大概是新台幣是302億但裡面有一半是屬於電動車所以電動車其實貨物稅目前是零的"},{"start":419.048,"end":445.887,"text":"那關稅呢?關稅有17.5%嗎?關稅是17.5%一樣的如果就關稅來講的確啦這個汽車或是說這個農產品農產品應該是我們主要進口美國的比較多啦這個出口到美國比較少但是呢就是對等關稅可能有兩種措施嘛第一個我們相對應的關稅也跟著做調整調降另外一個呢你可能要多買一些美國的東西嘛對不對"},{"start":447.315,"end":473.31,"text":"那目前來說我想平衡貿易值這個是各國都也是美國希望的那加強對擴大對美國的採購或者是投資都是一個方向對啊那我們有沒有因為其實下禮拜就知道了啦那有沒有先因應說有可能有哪一些關稅這個產品貨品的關稅有可能會調降那有哪一些可能要去多買一點你們有沒有這個清單呢"},{"start":476.408,"end":482.101,"text":"這個部分有關採購的部分行政院在我們的工作小組裡面都有討論"},{"start":483.515,"end":508.727,"text":"我覺得這個是有方向的然後對於關稅的稅率怎麼調整我們要看他所提出來的相關對等關稅的貨品以及對其他國家是不是都是平等對待都要看所以我們有聽部長這樣講就是說應該是有萬一被列進去的話有這個清單準備有哪些要做調降有哪一些東西可能要多買就是了"},{"start":510.814,"end":538.081,"text":"我們的方案都有今天有這個行政院的經貿談判辦公室的副總代表因為剛剛有提到這個台美的這一個21世紀的貿易倡議這個去年12月已經正式生效了那因為這個還沒有涉及到關稅關稅應該是比較後面的大概有沒有一個什麼期程"},{"start":539.415,"end":564.773,"text":"因為我們這一個談判是在拜登政府所啟動的那拜登任內實際上沒有談任何有涉及到關稅的這個雙邊協定所以我們的台美21世紀是沒有設定要談到降關稅的議題那未來會談到嗎那我先問一下好了因為現在變成川普總統了嘛那對於我們這一個台美21世紀的貿易協議在川普總統上任之後還有在繼續在進行嗎"},{"start":566.988,"end":590.274,"text":"因為川普政府實際上也有要求美國USTR要在4月1號公布他現在針對美國現在現有所有FTA的檢討所以我們的預期是我們的台美21世紀倡議也可能會在4月1號了解到說我們的接下來的談判的可能的方向以及川普總統對於我們現在台美協定的這個期待"},{"start":591.095,"end":616.545,"text":"所以還是在持續當中沒有說因為川普他上台的一些經貿政策的一些調整有做改變就對了因為這次美國國會也核准生效的確實我們在第一階段協議是美國跨黨派支持的一個有美國國內法基礎的一個協議所以我們看起來美國確實是支持台美繼續做這樣子的協議但是就是說要看川普總統他現在對我們這個協議的期待"},{"start":618.226,"end":628.799,"text":"那未來有機會會就關稅的部分去談嗎因為其實關稅才是最重要的那當然前面的協議也很重要啦那關稅的部分有機會會談到這部分嗎"},{"start":632.374,"end":656.653,"text":"現在就是關稅的談判要等4月2號他所公布的結果那關稅的談判是要納入21世紀的談判的範圍還是說另外再另起一個談判這個完全就是看我們要看後續的發展好OK好謝謝主席好謝謝啊這個我一般都很少對委員的發言插話啦你每次都針對我啊上次你也是這樣講結果也是針對我對不對"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時13分）謝謝主席，我們請財政部的莊部長。"],["主席：財政部莊部長。"],["李委員坤城：中央銀行的副總裁。"],["主席：中央銀行的朱副總裁。兩位長官，請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好、副總裁好。今天財政委員會要報告的題目叫做「因應美國川普政府對等關稅策略與我國被列入骯髒15國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」專題報告，我就請問部長跟副總裁，臺灣有被列入骯髒15國的名單了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，我想我們在報告裡面說得很清楚，是美國的財政部長日前接受媒體專訪的時候，他所提到對美課徵高關稅以及貿易量大的前15%的貿易夥伴，稱為骯髒15國，但他並沒有說哪些國家列入這十五國。"],["李委員坤城：沒有嘛！只因為我們是美國第七大的貿易夥伴，所以有媒體就按照這個把臺灣列進去了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，國外媒體列進去。"],["李委員坤城：川普還沒有宣布嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：副總裁，川普有宣布了嗎？"],["朱副總裁美麗：沒有宣布。"],["李委員坤城：沒有宣布嘛！所以我就覺得很奇怪，川普都還沒有宣布臺灣已經被列入骯髒15國的名單了，結果今天我們在財委會的這一個專題報告，好像是臺灣已經被列入骯髒15國的名單了。如果川普看到，因為我都還沒有宣布啊！怎麼臺灣立法院的財委會已經幫我宣布了，臺灣已經被列入了骯髒15國的名單了？我們可以因應，如果有可能被列入的話，臺灣該怎麼做，這我是可以接受的，但是臺灣還沒有被列入嘛！","再請問一下，因為川普政策的不確定性也蠻高的，之前央行的總裁來財委會有提到，他說臺灣被列入骯髒15國的機率並不高，因為他的看法是美國的平均稅率是3.3%，臺灣是6.5%，但是用加權平均稅率來看，美國是2.2%，臺灣是1.7%，所以他認為臺美是互補的，不能說是不公平的貿易！所以我們央行總裁認為，臺灣被列入骯髒15國的機會不大。我問部長好了，因為問副總裁你不好回應，因為是總裁講的話啦，來，我問一下部長，你是否認同總裁所說的話？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想總裁說的一定都有所依據，而且我們如果用單純的平均名目關稅稅率，當然會比美國高，可是你必須要考量各項貨品的進口值，所以我們用貿易加權平均關稅稅率，事實上，如果用貿易平均加權關稅稅率，我們是比美國低的。另外在農產品的部分，雖然我們會比它高，但是在工業產品的部分，其實我們只有1.4%，而且我們從美國進口的加權平均關稅稅率是2%，然後我們主要進口的還是工業產品，而工業產品裡面有大部分我們雙方都是零稅率的。"],["李委員坤城：所以部長也贊同、認同總裁所說的這句話，機率不高就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然總裁……"],["李委員坤城：機率不高，但還是有啦，不是說完全沒有嘛！但是，你是否認同總裁所說的？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們希望是這樣子，當然到時候美國怎麼出手，我們還是要密切的觀察、密切的關注。"],["李委員坤城：是啊，因為媒體說4月2號才公布啦，所以我們也不用搶先在川普還沒公布之前，就說臺灣已經列入了骯髒15國名單裡面。但是我提到，川普的政策有很多的不確定性，然後他也說有可能會有一些豁免或是例外，但是萬一結果不幸，臺灣被列入骯髒15國的話，部長認為有哪一些產業會受到影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然第一個，他要對哪一些產品要加徵關稅，這是要關切的；第二個……"],["李委員坤城：第一個，會加關稅嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，加徵關稅是對哪一些產品；第二個，他是不是對所有的國家都一樣的去加徵，或是只針對特定的國家……"],["李委員坤城：我們就講臺灣好了，你認為如果要對等關稅的話，哪些產業可能會受到影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們其實密切關注，我們對於所有的，目前他所釋放出來相關的訊息，我們都一直在關注，而且會去掌握，然後也會去分析對國內的相關產業會有什麼樣的影響，在行政院的臺美經貿工作小組的會議都一直非常密集的在開會研商，相關的對策也都有。"],["李委員坤城：主席，不好意思，時間暫停。我可不可以請經濟部的次長？"],["主席：好，經濟部江次長。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。次長，相同問題，我再問你，萬一被列入骯髒15國的時候，臺灣有哪些產業會受到影響？"],["江次長文若：在行政院的臺美經貿小組都有討論到，所以我們也有擬定各種的方案，如果真的有被列入的話……"],["李委員坤城：你認為有哪一些？我具體問好了啦，台經院的院長講，如果被列入的話，汽車跟農產品的影響會很大。我請問一下次長的意見？"],["江次長文若：最主要是因為臺美汽車的關稅是有差距的，但是我們並沒有出口整車到美國……"],["李委員坤城：我們都是零組件嘛！"],["江次長文若：我們出口美國的是沙灘車，並沒有在這一次、昨天川普政府公布的汽車名單……"],["李委員坤城：好，我再請教一下莊部長，現在車子從美國進來包含關稅跟貨物稅，大概要接近40%左右吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，我們的關稅是17.5%加上貨物稅，但還是要跟委員報告，從美國進口的車子，大概是新臺幣302億，裡面有一半是屬於電動車，其實目前電動車的貨物稅是零。"],["李委員坤城：那關稅呢？關稅就是17.5%。"],["莊部長翠雲：關稅一樣是17.5%。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，就關稅來講，的確汽車或是農產品……農產品應該主要是我們進口美國的比較多，出口到美國比較少，但對等關稅可能有兩種措施，第一個，我們相對應的關稅也跟著調降；另外一個，你可能就要多買一些美國的東西嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，我想平衡貿易值是各國及美國希望的，加強擴大對美國的採購或者是投資都是一個方向。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，其實下禮拜就知道了，你們有沒有先因應？可能有哪一些關稅或貨品關稅可能會調降，哪一些可能要多買一點，你們有沒有這個清單了？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關採購的部分，行政院在我們的工作小組裡面都有討論，我覺得這個是有方向的；對於關稅稅率怎麼調整，我們要看他們所提出來的相關對等關稅貨品，以及對其他國家是不是都是平等對待，都要具體來看。"],["李委員坤城：聽部長這樣講，應該是有……萬一被列進去的話，有準備這個清單，哪一些要做調降、哪一些東西可能要多買就是了？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的方案都有。"],["李委員坤城：方案都有，好。","今天有行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總……"],["主席：副總代表。"],["李委員坤城：是，因為剛剛有提到臺美21世紀貿易倡議，去年12月已經正式生效了，因為這個還沒有涉及到關稅，關稅應該是比較後面，有沒有一個大概的期程？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為我們這個談判是在拜登政府時啟動的，拜登任內實際上沒有談到任何涉及關稅的雙邊協定，所以我們臺美21世紀沒有設定要談到降關稅的議題。"],["李委員坤城：未來會談到嗎？我先問一下好了，因為現在變成川普總統了，對於我們臺美21世紀貿易協議，在川普總統上任之後還有繼續在進行嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為川普政府實際上也有要求，美國USTR要在4月1號公布針對美國現在所有FTA的檢討，所以預期臺美21世紀倡議也可能會在4月1號了解我們接下來可能的談判方向，以及川普總統現在對於我們臺美協定的期待。"],["李委員坤城：所以還是在持續當中？沒有因為川普上臺的一些經貿政策調整有做改變就對了？因為這是美國國會也核准生效的。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：確實，我們第一階段的協議是美國跨黨派支持的，是有美國國內法基礎的一個協議，所以看起來美國確實是支持臺美繼續做這樣子的協議，但就是要看川普總統現在對我們這個協議的期待。"],["李委員坤城：未來有機會就關稅部分去談嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們現在就是要……"],["李委員坤城：其實關稅才是最重要的，當然前面的協議也很重要，針對關稅的部分，有機會談到這部分嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：現在關稅談判要等4月2號他們所公布的結果，關稅談判是要納入21世紀的談判範圍，還是要再另起一個談判，這完全就要看後續的發展。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。我一般很少對委員的發言插話，不過因為……"],["李委員坤城：你每次都針對我啊，上次你也是這樣講，結果也是針對我，對不對？這次你又針對我……"],["主席：因為你挑戰我的題目，我跟你報告……"],["李委員坤城：我可以去評斷你的題目，對不對？我認為你這個題目不妥啊！"],["主席：沒有……"],["李委員坤城：你是召委，你有權力排這個題目，我也沒說不能排，但是我可以來評論這個題目好或是不好啊，我也可以評斷嘛，對不對？"],["主席：我就跟你報告，我是有所本的，經濟日報也說我們在裡面，路透社也說我們在裡面，因為我們的貿易順差排世界第六名……"],["李委員坤城：對啊，我剛剛有說過嘛，但是川普都還沒有宣布嘛……"],["主席：對啦……"],["李委員坤城：不管你是路透社、路邊社都一樣啊！"],["主席：如果以後這樣，我跟各位報告，譬如說你……如果對於召委排的題目有任何質疑的話，歡迎提早講啦，我們改題目也可以，好不好？"],["李委員坤城：我也是看到才知道啊，而且就算我有意見，你也不會改，所以我尊重你，但是你也尊重我好不好？互相尊重，謝謝。"],["主席：好，下一位請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00001"}}},{"id":"159708","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159708","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9000cfa2b597f1b2b4b1e62e9fce1db2a03b9e3eaef4bc79033a3ec606ed071d12b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:26:41 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副主委好我想要請教一下我們國發會在推動地方政策將134個鄉鎮區列為優先的推動區但是在108年到現在仍有30個整位提案接近三成案子主動撤案或審查未過"},{"start":48.508,"end":60.876,"text":"請教一下又過了一年了目前30個案進度如何還有很多的少數的案子主動撤案審查不通過這個是可以說明嗎"},{"start":62.643,"end":87.863,"text":"跟委員報告 因為這個我們一開始有一個設定就是說有一些優先的鄉村他們是比較偏鄉 比較落後然後比較急著需要的 那當然那是在一開始我們設定的時候 那後來我們有改採另外一個方案叫做多元提案 也就是說本來是由鄉鎮公所去提案 那當然就會有一個優先順序 那後來我們用多元提案的方式就"},{"start":88.543,"end":102.611,"text":"讓各個地方政府他們能夠主動的去提案這是第一點那第二點就是說他們在做這個提案裡面其實有時候會成功有時候不一定會成功其實是跟著我們整個的福島的"},{"start":103.932,"end":120.505,"text":"團隊然後我們都會有請委員去認真的去所以我們想要知道的是說不是說你的過程如何所以我們要的是效率如何有沒有落實因為我們看到就是沒有落實嘛也沒有達到這個效益所以我們才要去再請教"},{"start":123.027,"end":147.825,"text":"那這30幾個地方基本上也有一些有對剩下29個剩下29個是沒有地方創生計畫但是有一些是有我們的青培站因為我們看到就是在110年推動到就是我們青年培力的工作站的計畫因為我本身也是在做社區一直過來的在我們就是我還有"},{"start":151.648,"end":159.935,"text":"可以領到就是社區的那個菁英獎所以我覺得對這一塊我很重視因為看到的就是在112年我們已經投入超過4億的這個4億的公帑但是我們是要如何才不會達到說我們投入那麼多錢的效率在哪裡"},{"start":177.268,"end":180.332,"text":"還有促成我們真的我們的青年真的回鄉創意還是說就是計畫就是創意就是有這個計畫有這些青年來去回去回鄉但是後續發展呢"},{"start":192.525,"end":196.286,"text":"他們真的是成功了嗎?或者是說有在監督嗎?還真正的生根了嗎?這個是有沒有的績效的評估?還是就是只放了給東姐就沒有啊?青年就沒有後續發展,也沒有後續的輔導,這績效在哪裡?不會,我們不會東姐就沒有啊,因為這些的"},{"start":215.251,"end":239.184,"text":"這些的清培我們希望他們能夠長期就在那邊所以我們把清培的這個過程其實也分了好幾個階段那不同的階段譬如說我們有進階組或者是衍生讓他們把他們在那個地方的熱情能夠持續下去那也希望他們繼續對但是我現在要的不是說你在做的過程因為時間有限我要的是說你的績效的評估因為我們沒有看到"},{"start":240.084,"end":244.028,"text":"介紹的評估或者後續的發展真的是深耕嗎還有就是說我們因為為了要讓年輕人回到鄉下這個好意但是說他們有深耕嗎還說說地方跟中央就是"},{"start":256.58,"end":259.343,"text":"沒有連結就斷層了這樣子我們的這些年輕人好不容易鼓勵他們回去到最後中央就是說我的計畫結束了也沒有該地方連結這個年輕人也沒辦法去發展我們沒有看到啊根本也不知道不會"},{"start":275.382,"end":289.797,"text":"我們有 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是要先跟他們談判。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在進行得怎樣？"],["胡次長忠一：今年5月我們會被WOAH宣布為豬瘟的清淨國，本來口蹄疫我們早就已經是清淨國了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，豬瘟嘛。"],["胡次長忠一：豬瘟是今年5月預定要宣布，宣布之後我們就可以馬上跟日本談。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你看情況如何？"],["胡次長忠一：我們非常樂觀。"],["謝委員衣鳯：非常樂觀是不是？"],["胡次長忠一：因為稻草還有生鮮的豬肉，我們都可以賣過去。"],["謝委員衣鳯：米呢？去年好像……"],["胡次長忠一：米本來就可以賣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說去年日本大缺米，我們臺灣在提倡不同的米糧，也希望建立品牌，我們的米有沒有辦法輸日？"],["胡次長忠一：我們稻米最近這幾年出口到日本是5,000到7,000公噸，今年1月、2月到3月20號之前，已經出口了1,500公噸，所以我們非常樂觀，今年……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那能不能協助我們彰化有品牌的米能夠輸日？"],["胡次長忠一：日本的米管制得很嚴，首先要拿到日本政府的配額，配額如果拿不到的話，必須要用每公斤342塊日圓的關稅賣給他們，大概相當於臺幣77塊左右的關稅，如果拿得到關稅，就是跟他們的進口商買配額的話，我們當然可以出去，不過也是相當高的成本。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那怎麼樣降低成本？"],["胡次長忠一：降低成本的話，因為今年……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊，如果今年我們在糧食足夠的情況下，是不是應該替我們生產稻米的農民找到另外一條出路呢？"],["胡次長忠一：可以，就剛才委員所關心的，如果是彰化的農民，我們會先幫他驗，日本要求進口的米要驗六百多種農藥還有重金屬的殘留，通過的話才可以出去，當然，要優先拿到配額，這個我們會來協助。彰化那邊以前是米倉，從清朝以後就非常有名。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是啊！我是說如果在我們國內糧食足夠的情況下，對於希望做進口、出口的農民，是不是可以給予他們協助，好不好？"],["胡次長忠一：我們會全力協助，這個沒有問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["胡次長忠一：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝衣鳯召委。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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重要的國家軟實力我們以英國為例就是他們從兒童節目一直到影音的作品或者是從體育賽事一直到所謂的流行音樂甚至到美術或者是藝術甚至歷史的一些展館在在的都看到英國他們發展最重要的一個軟實力其實就是國力的象徵就是我們的文化"},{"start":39.491,"end":59.037,"text":"但是很遺憾我們看到了我們的文化部的預算照正常來講其實文化部的預算是佔中央的總預算比例通常都不到1%其實對我們來講其實已經不是那麼的多了那我們剛剛一直聽到就是文化部我們希望說文化能夠向下扎根"},{"start":59.577,"end":77.792,"text":"能夠往外擴展然後甚至國際的一些交流但是我相信大家都已經經歷過就是在預算會期的時候我們文化部的預算被大幅的煽動那我舉個例子來講比方說煽動的有這個同山的部分是有水電費"},{"start":78.573,"end":84.981,"text":"委辦費、特別費等等那另外呢在媒體宣傳5943萬是全數被刪除所以剛剛其實關於雅琳委員在提到說比方說黃牛我們要如何去宣導"},{"start":94.153,"end":122.585,"text":"要加強宣導但這個部分我們的預算是整體被刪除那更不用講可能有一些預算的煽動也會影響到地方文化的發展藝文產業的發展甚至文化資產的保存還有我剛剛所提的我們要往外擴展我有聽到部長有說今年其實我們要到大阪去拓展台灣的一個文化像這個部分在國際交流的部分也因為預算的煽動"},{"start":124.11,"end":138.982,"text":"也可能會受到一些影響 對嗎是那部長有什麼樣的因應的方法嗎其實我們就會想說如果沒宣費如果把我們全部刪除的話我們就想"},{"start":140.445,"end":163.387,"text":"對我來講我就會反而去找多一個可以做網路梗圖的人想辦法去克服但是對我們同仁來講真的蠻辛苦尤其是他那個沒宣費不能再用的時候我們活動非常多剛才提到水電其實很多單位如果不解凍的話到六七月之後就真的沒水沒電了"},{"start":164.148,"end":189.386,"text":"甚至像今年其實大家眾所矚目在大阪現在已經開始的這個萬國博覽會它的推廣或者是說我們剛剛講到這個文化幣等等或者是閱讀推廣等等所有的一個活動也可能會被迫中斷或者是有重大的影響我想呢這個一直過去到現在我們看到國民黨的委員把影視文化業者當成是要飯的那已經"},{"start":192.128,"end":200.401,"text":"把所有的台灣影視文化人都激怒了那不是只有影視文化的部分甚至民間藝術團體也紛紛針對文化的預算被刪減都已經站出來包含動漫公會"},{"start":207.752,"end":225.389,"text":"包含視覺藝術界還有出版業者還有書店等等我想呢不曉得他們有沒有聽到這樣的聲音喔那我想針對藝文產業其實它是一個高度依賴中央的政府補助喔那也因為我們的預算被煽動也有可能會沒辦法"},{"start":229.452,"end":251.687,"text":"好好的來讓藝文工作者他們的生計有所維持但是我今天剛剛有突然聽到了一絲的希望看到了一絲的曙光因為我們知道現在所有立法院的遊戲規則已經開始有點被更改了我不知道原來解凍可以這麼的快速也許從現在我們可以快速通關我們來聽一下好不好大文化部書面報告送進來這些錢"},{"start":259.394,"end":260.445,"text":"立刻就可以使用"},{"start":263.413,"end":283.001,"text":"我好開心欸是真的嗎因為他是我們教育文化的另外一位召委那我想如果有他這句話那我們可以往這個方向前進那我相信文化部解凍這個預算上的解凍或者是我們在才化法當中的這些可能會被影響的一些地方文化的產業可能就有那麼一絲被救贖的曙光"},{"start":290.168,"end":306.898,"text":"好 接下來我想要問一下就是其實剛剛也有很多我們的委員也在提到這個陸配的雅雅的案子其實是個前天大家軒然大波但是在更之前呢其實有台灣的演藝人員他在自己的這個平台上面"},{"start":307.758,"end":329.1,"text":"發表了矮化台灣主權相關的關於台灣省中國台灣省這樣子的一個不當的一個言論那成為這個威權統治的一個宣傳的工具我想呢身為藝人身為公眾人物其實我們都有一些道德的責任在那我們也會有一些所謂的社會的影響力"},{"start":330.041,"end":337.243,"text":"當他們利用自己的平台附中去做演藝表演的同時我們這個時候文化部應該要怎麼樣的嚴加的管理或者是輔導那麼當然我們有一個台灣藝人附中發展注意事項那目前這個執行的方法我們可能還不是非常的清楚到底應該要如何的來執行那對於台灣藝人附中去表演"},{"start":356.147,"end":372.39,"text":"但如何不會踩到所謂的政治的紅線這個部分是不是我想要再聽一下部長您怎麼說好其實我們原來的一些規定都不會針對某一個人去做出任何處分"},{"start":373.231,"end":387.749,"text":"但是我現在發現這個東西如果是一個文化滲透或者它是一個有計畫的在做的話作為文化部我們就要進一步去做出一些更具體的一些規範譬如說你去了中國大陸"},{"start":388.57,"end":408.927,"text":"你的商業行為背後有沒有條件是要做一些誣蔑台灣的言論才會產生這個商業行為或者是你背後有交易我們要對這個事情要做行政了解包括經濟公司我們要了解如果一旦知道他有這些行為或者他根本就有中國的"},{"start":409.928,"end":432.977,"text":"那個戶籍的話我們可以針對我們台灣我們至少可以保護我們台灣的一些譬如說他來申請輔導或者我們可以前面先知道他有沒有做這些事情或者事後知道我可以追回我的輔導金追回我的補助就我們要做一些比較更具體的一些行為但是這一切的一切都不表示我們不尊重這個言論自由"},{"start":434.918,"end":457.312,"text":"好 不論如何我們希望這個管理辦法或者是我們再更具體的一些這個管理的一個規範要出來啦那我們才能夠去執行這就有點像是兩岸人民關係條例當中我們一直強調就是公職人員其實你要附中你要報告是一樣的意思身為藝人一樣也有這樣子的一個重要的影響力喔我們不要淪為被統戰的一個工具啦"},{"start":458.152,"end":483.393,"text":"好 那因為今天時間有限接著下一題我想要問一下下的就是關於我們的台灣Plus我想台灣Plus經過了半年的這樣子的一個時間從才半年就已經有五次非常重大的一個疏失那不管是對於文化的敏感度不足或者是對於所謂的涉及語言上的標示的錯誤或者是政治的立場的偏頗"},{"start":484.761,"end":509.688,"text":"台灣Plus的宗旨應該是要讓全世界看到台灣但是問題是在專業度不夠嚴謹的一個狀況之下其實他們已經出現了好幾次的缺失台灣Plus的問題什麼時候可以真正的由內部的控管來管理這些所謂他們在做新聞報導的時候的橫平性這個也是我"},{"start":510.388,"end":539.111,"text":"辦公室一直不斷的在追的這一個題目這個部分部長怎麼看其實台灣plus它的從產生到現在的確在組織上的管理跟那個結構其實是蠻有問題的所以最近台灣plus本身公共電視已經成立一個調查一個很中立的調查團針對整個過去到現在它的組織跟人力因為我了解幕前幕後"},{"start":539.471,"end":553.531,"text":"尤其是在幕後的後製其實台灣Plus要做橫頻的報導是非常非常的快速是可以投入在幕後也就是說我的片子就算已經上架出去但是我事後可以來做"},{"start":554.774,"end":576.44,"text":"嚴重嚴格的一個補救的一個方式這個是可以快速再上架再讓他重新上架但目前為止其實光是這幾次的整個所有的爭議當中尤其是在三月份這兩次這樣子的一個個案我到目前為止還沒有看到補救的方法在哪裡是不是可以請Tarantulas來跟我說一下"},{"start":579.516,"end":594.134,"text":"因為我們最近已經接受這個調查的建議以後我們開始做比較強化的改變最主要原因是因為本國籍同仁在編輯的過程當中要讓他更介入更投入在整個編裁流程的管控"},{"start":594.614,"end":622.321,"text":"那過往我們當然是尊重外籍同仁對英語報導內容製作上的一些專業跟經驗尊重不代表沒有管制喔是 但我想本國籍同仁的管制還有新聞部主管的這個審核機制已經建立更好的方法我們在這個月已經啟動我想 橫頻的去報導不要有偏頗的政治的立場去報導這些所謂的爭議的報導的影片的同時其實這個部分內部你們真的要嚴加的"},{"start":623.061,"end":628.754,"text":"好好的來做管理好嗎?是,我們會努力改進好,以上謝謝部長,謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時19分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長，辛苦了。我想文化是最重要的國家軟實力，我們以英國為例，他們從兒童節目一直到影音作品，或是從體育賽事一直到所謂的流行音樂，甚至到美術，或者是藝術，甚至歷史的一些展館，在在的都可以看到英國他們發展最重要的軟實力其實就是國力的象徵，也就是國家的文化。但是很遺憾，我們看到了文化部的預算，照正常來講，其實文化部的預算占中央總預算的比例通常都不到百分之一，對我們來講，其實已經不是那麼的多了。我們剛剛一直聽到文化部希望文化能夠向下扎根，能夠往外擴展，然後與國際的一些交流，但是我相信大家都已經經歷過，就是在預算會期的時候，文化部的預算被大幅的刪凍。我舉個例子來講，比方說刪凍部分，統刪的部分有水電費、委辦費、特別費等等，另外，媒體宣傳預算5,943萬是全數被刪除，所以剛剛關於雅琳委員所提到的，比方說黃牛我們要如何去宣導，應該要加強宣導，但這個部分，你們的預算是整體被刪除了。更不用講，可能有一些預算的刪凍也會影響到地方文化的發展、藝文產業的發展，甚至文化資產的保存，還有我剛剛所提的，我們要往外擴展。我有聽到部長提到，今年其實我們要到大阪去拓展臺灣的文化，像這個部分，國際交流的部分，也因為預算的刪凍，可能會受到一些影響，對嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：那部長有什麼樣的因應方法嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實我們就會想說，如果媒宣費把我們全部刪除的話，對我來講，我就會反而去找多一個可以做網路梗圖的人，想辦法去克服，但是對我們同仁來講，真的滿辛苦的，尤其是當媒宣費不能使用的時候，我們的活動非常多，以及剛才提到水電，其實很多單位如果不解凍的話，到6、7月之後就真的沒水沒電了。"],["郭委員昱晴：甚至像今年，其實大家眾所矚目，在大阪現在已經開始的萬國博覽會，關於它的推廣，或者是我們剛剛講到的文化幣等等，或者是閱讀推廣等等，所有活動也可能會被迫中斷，或者是有重大的影響。我想從過去一直到現在，我們看到國民黨的委員把影視文化業者當成是要飯的，已經把所有的臺灣影視文化人都激怒了，不是只有影視文化的部分，甚至民間藝術團體也紛紛針對文化預算被刪減，都已經站出來，包含動漫工會，包含視覺藝術界，還有出版業者、書店等等，不曉得他們有沒有聽到這樣的聲音？","針對藝文產業，其實它是高度依賴中央政府的補助，也因為你們的預算被刪凍，有可能會沒辦法好好的來讓藝文工作者他們的生計有所維持。但是今天我剛剛有突然聽到了一絲的希望，看到了一絲的曙光，因為我們知道現在所有立法院的遊戲規則已經開始有點被更改了，我不知道原來解凍可以這麼的快速，也許從現在開始我們可以快速通關，我們來聽一下，好不好？這可能是剛剛才質詢過的。","（影片播放中）"],["郭委員昱晴：我好開心耶，是真的嗎？因為他是我們教育及文化委員會的另外一位召委，我想如果有他這句話，那我們可以往這個方向前進，我相信文化部預算的解凍，或者是我們在財劃法當中那些可能會被影響的一些地方文化產業，可能就有那麼一絲被救贖的曙光。","接下來，我想要問一下的是，其實剛剛也有很多委員提到陸配亞亞的案子，其實前天引起大家軒然大波，但是在更早之前，其實也有臺灣的演藝人員在自己的平臺上面，發表了矮化臺灣主權相關的言論，關於臺灣省、中國臺灣省這樣子一個不當的言論，成為威權統治者宣傳的工具。我想身為藝人、身為公眾人物，其實我們都有一些道德的責任在，我們也會有一些所謂的社會影響力，當他們利用自己的平臺赴中去做演藝表演的同時，這個時候，文化部應該要怎麼樣的嚴加管理或者是輔導？當然我們有一個臺灣藝人赴中發展注意事項，目前執行的方法我們可能還不是非常清楚到底應該要如何來執行，對於臺灣藝人赴中去表演，如何不會踩到政治紅線，這個部分我想要再聽一下部長您怎麼說。"],["李部長遠：其實我們原來的一些規定都不會針對某一個人去做出任何處分，但是我現在發現這個東西如果是一個文化滲透，或者是有計畫地在做的話，作為文化部，我們就進一步去做出一些更具體的規範，譬如說，你去了中國大陸，你的商業行為背後有沒有條件，是要做一些誣衊臺灣的言論，才會產生這個商業行為，或者是你背後有交易，我們要對這個事情做行政瞭解，包括經紀公司，我們要瞭解，一旦知道他有這些行為，或者他根本就有中國戶籍的話，我們可以針對我們臺灣，我們至少可以保護我們臺灣的一些，譬如說，他來申請輔導，或者我們前面先知道他有沒有做這些事情，或者事後知道，我們可以追回輔導金，追回補助，因為我們要做一些更具體的行為，但是一切的一切都不表示我們不尊重言論自由。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，不論如何，我們希望管理辦法或更具體的管理規範要出來。"],["李部長遠：是，是。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們才能夠去執行，這就有點像兩岸人民關係條例當中我們一直強調，公職人員赴中要報告，是一樣的意思，身為藝人，一樣有重要的影響力，我們不要淪為被統戰的工具。","因為今天時間有限，接著下一題我想要問的就是關於TaiwanPlus。經過半年，才半年，TaiwanPlus就有五次非常重大的疏失，不管是對於文化的敏感度不足，或者是涉及語言上的標示錯誤，或者是政治立場的偏頗，TaiwanPlus的宗旨應該是要讓全世界看到臺灣，但是問題是在專業度不夠嚴謹的狀況之下，出現了好幾次缺失，TaiwanPlus的問題什麼時候可以真正地由內部的控管，來管理這些他們在做新聞報導時的衡平性，這也是我的辦公室一直不斷在追的題目，這個部分，部長怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：TaiwanPlus從產生到現在，的確在組織上的管理和結構是滿有問題的，所以最近TaiwanPlus本身所處公共電視已經成立一個很中立的調查團，針對整個從過去到現在它的組織跟人力……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我了解幕前幕後，尤其是在幕後的後製，其實TaiwanPlus要做衡平的報導是非常非常快速，可以投入在幕後，也就是說，我的片子就算已經上架出去，但是我事後可以做嚴格的補救方式，可以快速再讓它重新上架，但目前為止，其實光是這幾次爭議當中，尤其是在3月份這兩次的個案，我到目前為止還沒有看到補救的方法在哪裡，是不是可以請TaiwanPlus來跟我說一下？"],["余執行長佳璋：跟委員報告，因為我們最近接受了調查的建議以後，我們開始做比較強化的改變，最主要原因是因為本國籍同仁在編輯的過程當中，要讓他更介入、更投入在整個編採流程的管控，過往我們當然是尊重外籍同仁對英語報導內容製作上一些專業跟經驗，但我想本國籍……"],["郭委員昱晴：尊重不代表沒有管制喔。"],["余執行長佳璋：是，但我想本國籍同仁的管制，還有新聞部主管的審核機制，已經建立更好的方法，我們在這個月已經啟動……"],["郭委員昱晴：我想衡平地去報導，不要有偏頗的政治立場去報導，這些有爭議的報導影片出來的同時，其實這個部分你們內部真的要好好嚴加管理，好嗎？"],["余執行長佳璋：是，我們會繼續努力改進。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，以上，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝郭昱晴委員。部長請回。","我們接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9001a77a964d0b1e915b4606480da88618db9e3eaef4bc790335a549a2cf34375e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:16:31 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不減 絲毫不減但是不管戰力再多強 論證還是要以理行政立法互相尊重 但是監督的角色還是不能改變但是監督的過程一定要很理性 不能咆哮"},{"start":34.295,"end":59.842,"text":"不能噴口水 不能問一些這個國家機密我先請教這個農業部 我們胡次長好 請農業部 那也要控制分貝禮職要契合不能禮職氣壯 禮職要契合委員好 這個五分鐘先開始這個昨天有一個人問 問說這個"},{"start":62.455,"end":87.703,"text":"我們的公糧儲備我們大概都知道公糧儲備它這個會有動態性的檢討那一般是大概是8萬到10萬之間您當過這個農糧署署長所以我們公糧儲備大概一定的這個SOP大概是7萬到10萬左右 對不對那未來有沒有可能會增加"},{"start":89.427,"end":114.347,"text":"這個儲備的量其實我們一直都超過我們本來安全存量一年是30萬但是像目前的話是75.7萬已經將近8個月就是只有公糧不包括民間的存糧量沒有問題量的儲備我想這個行之有年而且我想農業部是這方面的專業但是你相關的配售點"},{"start":116.116,"end":144.842,"text":"當然是國家機密啊對對不對對這是國安的問題這國家安全的糧食也是國家安全啊是國家安全物資如果有個人發文跟你要發文跟你要你會不會同意如果是國會議員的話我們會用密件因為如果按照那個是可以供應給國會議員的話我們當然也要給但是要用密件處理你要用極機密處理好喔對你這個"},{"start":146.688,"end":170.583,"text":"這個怕他們馬上就習近平那邊有一份所以你們在處理這些的資料的時候要相當謹慎是相當謹慎這個不要說他一個一個公文給你你就一個一個密字件的公文很多對你應該要把它更高層級如果如果他把這資料外洩"},{"start":171.889,"end":196.156,"text":"他有沒有相關的責任?當然有所以我是提醒你如果他後續又給你邀資料你們要小心應對喔是,謝謝您的提醒千萬不能把這個呃配售的點的資料啊我要這個對岸敵對勢力又拿一份這個萬萬我萬萬不行喔我們不能接受齁對好那這個所謂的"},{"start":197.612,"end":223.368,"text":"農村再生計畫預算有沒有受到影響當然受到影響影響多少我們本來在三年前我們當時是給我們一千多個農村是八萬八億對不起兩年前是六億那去年是十一億那到目前到今年我們才撥出去1.7億所以事實上受到相當有沒有受到財化化的影響"},{"start":224.788,"end":247.205,"text":"會受到影響影響目前我們還沒有辦法,但是我們現在只能夠撥一半這檔動山的影響,這筆算減少多少?會減少大概有4到5億左右那你現在只剩下4到5億來做相關的農村再生計畫?是比前幾年大概只剩下一半?對"},{"start":249.175,"end":255.273,"text":"那你要怎麼推動農村再生計畫所以我們就把過去啊已經我們目前已經"},{"start":256.474,"end":279.546,"text":"合訂的這些農村的社區有1084個那當中啊 尤其我們輔導了好幾年的話我們就暫時那一些就就由我們培根計畫通過這些計畫本來已經都準備好了大家有一些這個農村已經在申請了對不對 已合訂了但是因為被凍三年就沒有辦法撥下去他就沒辦法執行嘛 對不對對 我們就要選擇比較當初我當初我審查農業撥預算這筆經費是無意全數通過喔"},{"start":284.789,"end":307.526,"text":"對,一直都是這樣子簡列數是零,山東數是零這非常感謝對,在經濟委員會我們有各黨派的立委在就莫名其妙在草野協商被幾個完全沒有來過經濟委員會的我不曉得是誰,我不方便講講了我就生氣了他完全不曉得農村的需求就大筆一揮,隨便亂砍在菜市場那邊發脾氣"},{"start":311.926,"end":336.023,"text":"沒有經過這個思考就情緒性、報復性這樣子煽動預算我覺得未來啊立法院預算審查制度要改經濟委員會中心主主義一定要確實到位要把委員會通過的這個預算決議啊沒有除非保留到院會處理預算在委員會通過就不能再更改了"},{"start":337.959,"end":350.753,"text":"結果我們通過預算在抄襲上莫名被改為這個面目全非淪為預算淪為政治報復或者政治鬥爭的一個工具受害的是所有的人民對"},{"start":352.799,"end":365.106,"text":"所以我覺得相關的預算層的制度要改你一定要落實這個委員會中心準...蛤?時間夠了?沒有,還有一分鐘好啦,這樣,市長謝謝來那個國安會"},{"start":370.854,"end":393.143,"text":"國安會副主委今天您跟高副主委這個編分兩路是就是說行政院的台美經貿小組來因應川普的相關貿易的這個作為包括關稅是這個貴會是誰代表是主委代表還是您還是高是主委跟高副所以你對這部分比較不了解"},{"start":394.451,"end":407.415,"text":"我當然看到這個相關的報告就是說你們要看這個美國對其他我們主要的這個貿易競爭國的相關的關稅的狀況像說台灣如果用貿易加權平均關稅台灣只有1.7 美國是2.2日本是1.9 南韓是8.4"},{"start":416.118,"end":435.101,"text":"那中國是3如果用簡單平均明目關稅的話台灣是6.5美國是3.3日本是3.7南韓是13.4你們有沒有經過沙盤推演他比較這個美國可能用貿易加權平均關稅還是用簡單平均明目關稅來作為一個這個相關貿易手段"},{"start":435.942,"end":464.602,"text":"是 這個跟委員報告 因為委員都要求我們要很精準的回答是不是容我再整理一些資料 再跟委員報告沒關係啦 我等一下去財政問你們好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 那另外啊 因為我通常都很準時 但是今天我們招委特別容許我再多講兩分鐘啊 是這個 我還沒有講 不過我現在容許了謝謝 謝謝 我很感謝 我下次當招我再還給你"},{"start":466.328,"end":481.517,"text":"那個離島售電差額這個部分離島基金呢離島基金你們未來要怎麼樣去看待離島基金會不會撥補台電你們這個國會有沒有立場這個今天執密離島是離島是對是我們國土對你未來這個會不會由離島基金來售電來補貼"},{"start":494.972,"end":523.184,"text":"目前還是希望就是說用追加預算把一千億又透過如果追加預算又沒過呢如果追加預算又沒過呢目前的狀態是這樣子那我覺得我覺得按照這個目前這個藍白的策略他們不會過不會過你們會不會考慮用離島基金來撥補會嗎對那因為我要跟委員報告就是說因為原來這個要"},{"start":524.935,"end":551.186,"text":"追加這個1000億裡面其實已經包含了好幾項不同的差價尤其是加上離島的它其實也放在那個追加的預算裡你不能否認這是一個方案選項之一嘛對不對這是一個選項之一嘛如果不是選項它不會拿出來討論嘛那你這個順位順位是應該是如果順位還是追加預算來處理的話那如果不成的話這是不是一個選項"},{"start":553.857,"end":570.969,"text":"這個可能還要好幾個國人在演繹目前沒有辦法直接跟委員回答我想很多事情也不能勉強回答你不太清楚的事情大南方新矽谷的推動方案在我們經濟發展會議總統主持經濟發展會議這些各分區的計畫是誰來做管考"},{"start":577.593,"end":592.119,"text":"目前大南方新矽谷我們是請國科會這邊在做主導所以像明天可能就會開一個是國科會國發會是在統合六大就是我們整個的六大的產業"},{"start":593.939,"end":609.054,"text":"所以你真的大南方信息股是我跟那個蔡宇都一起在這個大南方信息股裡面所以主政還是國科會是 主政是國科會那我們是在匆忙協助推動整個的推動方案好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時8分）沒有休息10分鐘，我戰力更大。"],["主席：絲毫不減。"],["邱委員志偉：但是不管戰力再多強，論證還是要以理，行政、立法互相尊重，但監督的角色還是不能改變，可是監督的過程一定要很理性，不能咆哮、不能噴口水、不能問一些國家機密。","我先請教農業部胡次長。"],["主席：請農業部。"],["胡次長忠一：委員好。"],["主席：也要控制分貝。"],["邱委員志偉：理直要氣和，不能理直氣壯，要理直氣和。"],["主席：好！"],["胡次長忠一：委員好。"],["主席：5分鐘從現在才開始。"],["邱委員志偉：5分鐘現在開始，好。昨天有一個人問說我們的公糧儲備，我們大家都知道公糧儲備會有動態性的檢討。"],["胡次長忠一：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一般大概是8萬到10萬之間，您當過農糧署署長，所以我們的公糧儲備有一定的SOP，大概是7萬到10萬左右，對不對？"],["胡次長忠一：嗯。"],["邱委員志偉：未來有沒有可能會增加？"],["胡次長忠一：儲備的量其實我們一直都超過。"],["邱委員志偉：我們都超過？"],["胡次長忠一：我們本來安全存糧一年是30萬，但是像目前的話是75.7萬，已經將近8個月，就是只有公糧，不包括民間的存糧。"],["邱委員志偉：量沒有問題，量的儲備我想是行之有年，而且農業部是這方面的專業，但是相關的配售點當然是國家機密啊，對不對？"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["邱委員志偉：這是國安的問題，這是國家安全，糧食也是國家安全啊！是國家安全物資。如果有個人發文跟你要，你會不會同意？"],["胡次長忠一：如果是國會議員的話，我們會用密件，因為如果按照……是可以供應給國會議員的話，我們當然也要給，但是要用密件處理。"],["邱委員志偉：你要用極機密處理好喔！"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["邱委員志偉：怕他們馬上就……習近平那邊又有一份耶！所以你們在處理這些資料的時候要相當謹慎。"],["胡次長忠一：是。"],["邱委員志偉：不要說一個公文給你，你就一個……密字件的公文很多，你應該要把它提到更高層級，如果他把這個資料外洩，他有沒有相關的責任？"],["胡次長忠一：當然有。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我是提醒你，如果他後續又跟你要資料，你們要小心應對。"],["胡次長忠一：是，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["邱委員志偉：千萬不能把配售點的資料讓對岸敵對勢力又拿一份，這個萬萬不行，我們不能接受。"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所謂的農村再生計畫，這一次預算有沒有受到影響？"],["胡次長忠一：當然受到影響。"],["邱委員志偉：影響多少？"],["胡次長忠一：本來在三年前，當時是給一千多個農村8億，兩年前是6億，去年是11億，到今年我們才撥出去1.7億，所以事實上受到相當……"],["邱委員志偉：這一次有沒有受到財劃法的影響？"],["胡次長忠一：會受到影響。"],["邱委員志偉：影響金額是多少？"],["胡次長忠一：目前我們還沒有辦法，但是我們現在只能夠撥一半。"],["邱委員志偉：受在野黨凍刪的影響，這筆預算減少多少？"],["胡次長忠一：會減少大概有4到5億左右。"],["邱委員志偉：4到5億？"],["胡次長忠一：嗯。"],["邱委員志偉：你們現在只剩下4到5億來做相關的農村再生計畫？"],["胡次長忠一：是，今年。"],["邱委員志偉：與前幾年比大概只剩下一半？"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那你們要怎麼推動農村再生計畫？"],["胡次長忠一：所以我們就把過去已經……我們目前已經核定的農村社區有1,084個，當中有一些我們輔導了好幾年的，暫時那一些就由我們剛培根計畫通過……"],["邱委員志偉：這些計畫本來已經都準備好了，有一些農村已經在申請了，對不對？"],["胡次長忠一：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你們也核定了，但是因為被凍刪就沒有辦法撥下去，他們也沒辦法執行，對不對？"],["胡次長忠一：對，我們就要選擇比較……"],["邱委員志偉：當初我當召委審查農業部預算，這筆經費是5億全數通過喔！"],["胡次長忠一：對，一直都是這樣子。"],["邱委員志偉：減列數是0，刪凍數是0。"],["胡次長忠一：對，非常感謝。"],["邱委員志偉：在經濟委員會有各黨派的立委，結果莫名其妙在朝野協商被幾個完全沒有來過經濟委員會的，我不曉得是誰，我不方便講啦！講了我就生氣，他完全不曉得農村的需求，就大筆一揮隨便亂砍，像在菜市場喊價一樣，沒有經過思考，就情緒性、報復性這樣子刪凍預算。我覺得未來立法院預算審查制度要改，委員會中心主義一定要確實到位，要把委員會通過的預算決議……除非保留到院會處理，預算在委員會通過就不能再更改了，結果我們通過的預算在朝野協商莫名其妙被改得面目全非，預算淪為政治報復或者政治鬥爭的一個工具，受害的是所有的人民，所以我覺得相關的預算審查制度要改，一定要落實委員會中心主義。什麼，時間到了？"],["胡次長忠一：沒有，還有1分鐘。"],["邱委員志偉：好，就這樣，次長，謝謝。"],["胡次長忠一：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：請國發會。"],["主席：國發會請。"],["邱委員志偉：國發會副主委，今天您跟高副主委兵分兩路？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：委員好。是。"],["邱委員志偉：行政院的臺美經貿小組來因應川普的相關貿易作為，包括關稅，貴會是由誰代表？是主委代表還是您還是高副？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是主委跟高副。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你對這部分比較不了解？我當然看到相關的報告，你們要看美國對其他我們主要貿易競爭國的相關關稅狀況，如果用貿易加權平均關稅，臺灣是1.7%、美國是2.2%，日本是1.9%、南韓是8.4%、中國是3%；如果用簡單平均名目關稅的話，臺灣是6.5%、美國是3.3%、日本是3.7%、南韓是13.4%。你們有沒有經過沙盤推演？美國可能用貿易加權平均關稅還是用簡單平均名目關稅來作為相關貿易的手段？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：跟委員報告，因為委員都要求我們要很精準的回答，是不是容我會後整理一些資料後再跟委員報告？"],["邱委員志偉：沒關係啦！我等一下去財政委員會問你們的人就好了。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：因為我通常都很準時，但是今天召委特別容許我再多講2分鐘。"],["主席：我還沒有講喔！不過我現在容許了。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝，萬分感謝，我下次當召委再還給你。離島售電差額的部分，你們未來要怎麼樣去看待離島基金？會不會撥補台電？國發會有沒有立場？今天執秘有來嗎？離島是……"],["彭副主任委員立沛：對，是我們國土處……"],["邱委員志偉：未來會不會有離島建設基金售電補貼？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：目前還是希望用追加預算把1,000億透過立法院這邊審議。"],["邱委員志偉：如果追加預算又沒過呢？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：目前的狀態是這樣子。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得按照目前藍白的策略，他們不會過，若不會過，你們會不會考慮用離島基金來撥補？會嗎？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：我跟委員報告，因為原來要追加的1,000億裡面其實已經包含了好幾項不同的差價，尤其像離島的其實也放在追加的預算裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：你不能否認這是一個方案選項之一，對不對？這是選項之一嘛！如果不是選項，他不會拿出來討論嘛！這個順位應該是……"],["彭副主任委員立沛：順位還是以追加……"],["邱委員志偉：以追加預算來處理。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：對。"],["邱委員志偉：如果不成的話，這是不是一個選項？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：我們可能還要跟好幾個部會再一起研擬。"],["邱委員志偉：還要再精準？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：對，目前沒有辦法直接跟委員回答。"],["邱委員志偉：好啦！我想也不能勉強你回答你不太清楚的事情。大南方新矽谷的推動方案是在經濟發展會議，由總統主持經濟發展會議，這些各分區的計畫是由誰來做管考？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：目前大南方新矽谷我們是請國科會在做主導，像明天可能就會開一個……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，這是國科會，那國發會的角色呢？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：國發會是在統合六大，就是我們整個六大產業。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你針對……"],["彭副主任委員立沛：六大區域產業……"],["邱委員志偉：我跟蔡易餘都是一起在這個大南方新矽谷計畫裡面努力，所以主政還是國科會？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是，主政是國科會，我們是從旁協助推動整個推動方案。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員。","我們下一位請謝衣鳯召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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立」的文字，用他的魔法來制服他。臺灣的追星人認為，如果加上「臺灣獨立」，這個影片就不會再被盜用，也才有自己的版權。可是現在遇到一個問題，主辦公司在該名粉絲的IG留言說，請在有藝人的畫面中把這四個字移除，似乎這是我們自己的一種言論審查、思想審查。這種狀況去年也有，泰百CP來臺灣宣傳，臺灣的主辦單位也跟追星團、應援團說，裡面都不要講到任何跟臺灣相關的事情。我認為這等於是我們先自我限縮，讓臺灣人在臺灣發表任何言論都不行，請問您的看法是什麼？"],["李部長遠：我覺得滿荒謬的。臺灣本來就是個主權獨立的國家，而且是自由民主的制度，我們在這邊講臺灣獨立的言論……"],["張委員雅琳：而且他是在自己的影片上講……"],["李部長遠：這就像一些很有名的藝人在全世界巡迴演唱時，會表達支持疆獨、藏獨，大家都會認為他很有勇氣，反而在臺灣自己本地不能講這個？我真的不曉得為什麼！"],["張委員雅琳：我希望部長可以思考這問題，這問題可能會影響到接下來……這幾年其實有越來越多的韓國明星來臺灣表演，如果我們自己臺灣的公司都對我們自己的粉絲做這麼多嚴格的思想審查，我覺得未來可能有機會讓中國有漏洞可以鑽。所以這部分是不是可以一併考慮跟思考？"],["李部長遠：是、是。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來還是要延續追星族的權益，我想在今天質詢完之後，部長應該會認識非常多的韓團。這是BTS，不知道部長聽過BTS嗎？BTS的j-hope要來臺灣開演唱會，3月時開放了三天時間購票，一下子就秒殺了，這讓我覺得黃牛票議題非常嚴肅，因為接下來GD也要來臺灣，GD是另外一個團。針對這些天團，我們看到社群上有這句話：本次委託提供預購碼的買家全部成功進場，百分之百出貨率，這是不是黃牛行為？"],["李部長遠：這個算不算黃牛……"],["張委員雅琳：還是沒關係……"],["李部長遠：像網路上這樣的東西，我們真的不曉得要怎麼……"],["張委員雅琳：可是他講的是提供預購碼的買家都百分之百出貨，代表百分之百買到票。問題是票已經秒殺，很多人搶不到，他竟然說如果你還是很想進場的話，可以注意我們的貼文。這不是嗎？這一定是啊！因為可以代購，而且還保證絕對入場，這絕對是黃牛行為！現在黃牛非常挑釁，因為他們根本不怕被抓，為什麼？我從去年開始就一直在關注這個議題，對於所有追星族來說，最希望的就是能跟他的偶像見上一面。所以我們必須確保機制，讓每個人都有公平購票的機會！可是針對黃牛票檢舉的成效其實非常低，部長可以看到，加價轉售收受檢舉8,424件，成案率只有26.3%，用不正方式收受檢舉的有521件，成案率只有2.3%，所以我們總共收到了將近9,000筆的檢舉資料，只有不到25%、只有大概25%可以檢舉成案。最主要的原因是，簡單來講，這是我自己歸納的，我覺得是檢警根本要不到社群平臺後臺的資料，而且也很難以提供，就是這些不管是購票的人也好，或者是平臺方到底願不願意提供log，我覺得也是一個很大的問題。","去年其實我在那時候有針對，如果當民眾要檢舉的時候，這邊你可以看到綠色框框裡面，當他要檢舉的時候，其實民眾是很難拿到log資料。當時文化部是給我回復，王次長當時是回復說，他們會跟平臺方來索取，只要我們有票券的號碼或流水紀錄的話，我們就可以跟他要，就可以真正找到這個買票的人。當時我有說好，但我還是希望你們可以跟民眾加強說明，可是一年過後了，對於一個檢舉民眾來說，我看完我還是要提供這個log資料啊，這是你們檢舉網站檢舉的頁面，上面還是沒有告訴他，我們是可以來協助的，只要提供部分的資訊就可以了。您可以看一下，這上面文字是這樣寫，不管是檢舉要提供哪些資料都有寫說需要提供平臺的名稱、藝文表演活動資訊跟操作歷程紀錄。所以我覺得這對民眾來說，他並不知道只要有流水號就可以檢舉了，可以說明一下嗎？可以回復一下嗎？這部分要如何讓民眾可以知道。"],["李部長遠：這個部分真的只有加強宣導，關於黃牛，從去年到今年，我們已經做了很多的方式，譬如說，我們跟地方的一些場館，他們本身能夠掌管到演唱會申請的單位，尤其是六都，跟他們一起來想出一些……"],["張委員雅琳：部長，其實我想要要求兩件事情啦，第一，這個檢舉平臺上面是不是可以更清楚地讓民眾知道，他只要提供流水號就可以去檢舉，他不一定要提供到這麼完整的log資料？因為這是去年你們告訴我的，或是說你們是不是一定要……"],["李部長遠：我請司長回答好嗎？"],["吳司長宜璇：委員好，關於委員所提這個部分，我們會在頁面上，因為我們最近也正在改版，有一些說明的部分會再講清楚。其實基本上，在一般加價轉售的檢舉案上，確實我們會需要的是目前上面列到的票券的流水號碼，log其實基本上，一般民眾確實是不會有，他是所謂的不正方式，所以這個部分，我們會提醒……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，我懂，所以我的意思是說，你們就應該要做一些刪除嘛，因為你這樣加下去，就會變成他必須要，如果我是一個民眾，當我看到的時候，我就會想說這樣我會沒有辦法檢舉，所以這才會造成我們前面的檢舉成案率這麼低啊！第二個問題，我們今天真的有辦法，平臺會給你這個log的紀錄嗎？他們真的願意嗎？因為對他們來說，商業模式我賣掉就賣掉啦，我根本不在乎這件事情，他們真的願意給你們嗎？"],["吳司長宜璇：跟委員報告，其實目前如果確實檢舉案件資料明確的時候，警方或者地方政府在跟售票平臺調的時候，像拓元這些他們其實會稍微配合。"],["張委員雅琳：稍微配合？"],["吳司長宜璇：對、對、對，基本上，其實還是會有售票平臺願意配合我們提供這些log，因為log其實……"],["張委員雅琳：所以聽起來好像有些是不會配合的嘛？"],["吳司長宜璇：我們其實有一直在跟他們合作。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，這個問題，因為我時間到了，我們約個時間來仔細地討論這個部分，好嗎？因為我覺得，如果我們今天做了一個這樣子的辦法，雖然我們可以罰他，我們有一些好像很高額的金額可以去嚇阻他，可是事實上我們真的就……從這個成案率來看，我們好像就是抓不太到啦，我們應該要怎麼樣子來精進，讓我們真正來照顧到每一個追星人，都可以跟他的偶像，用公平跟正當的方式來相見，好嗎？謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，部長請回。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900e79d0b3027020c397648dfe0a0275fc5b9e3eaef4bc790338cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"11:07:17 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齁市長你在節目上說在野黨預算造成急診擁塞那請教一下這個公然造謠是誰下的指令啊"},{"start":168.035,"end":182.117,"text":"報告委員我先簡單還原一下因為就是說在上一次大院這邊我想委員也都非常關心相關護理人員我們這裡面護理人員我們現在目前照護師是統三10%凍結30%比例原則算下來的話是大概2200萬業務推動老實說真的其實我問過市長那邊確實會有受到一些相關的影響不過現在不是"},{"start":197.558,"end":205.924,"text":"這是今年年初的事情而已耶對不對你怎麼那麼快就有反應咧你們做事情真的有反應那麼快嗎"},{"start":207.037,"end":233.043,"text":"包委 因為那時候我受訪的時候 那時候其實你用猜的嘛 你用預判的不是啊 包委 那個也非常感謝委員的那個關心那其實我們這個部分大概那個獎勵的部分我想委員也大力來支持那現在3月21號我們公告已經可以動之了3月21號所以嘛 你們前面在公然造謠就根本還沒發生的事你就已經在講了嘛我想問主任檢察官一下"},{"start":233.903,"end":262.749,"text":"如果公然造謠散布假新聞假消息這樣會觸犯什麼樣的法律還是我來講我看你不好意思講行事責任部分可能構成刑法第310條毀謗罪第309條公然侮辱罪第151條恐嚇公眾罪第153條散獲他人犯罪或違背法令罪等行政責任散布謠言足以影響公共"},{"start":263.369,"end":285.163,"text":"之安寧者可依社會秩序維護法第63條第1項第5款規定處3日以下或3日以下的拘留或3萬元以下的罰還這樣對吧對好那你請回主任請回那我再問一下次長你說護理人員夜班今天沒領到是因為什麼預算凍結嗎"},{"start":287.463,"end":303.581,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們有這一個有三的部分另外有三百分之十凍結是百分之三十那按照這個比例原則算下來的話我們就是護理室那邊可是你知道護理人員的夜班今天放在哪個計畫裡面嗎"},{"start":308.675,"end":335.091,"text":"這12項中長期計畫裡面對 沒錯那凍結多少錢剛那部分業務費的部分市長說的是業務費有凍結我們現在講的是這個今天是講補助的部分目前講補助就是在321公告之後我們只有凍結多少錢對 目前沒有凍結對啊 當時好像凍結300萬而已嘛後來就拿掉了對不對對啊 那你怎麼可以說我們去刪減呢"},{"start":336.652,"end":354.69,"text":"還有一個 然後有沒有刪減沒有 獎勵費沒有 獎補助沒有那今年預算將近69億我想請問一下 這69億我們準備要花在哪裡我們目前是三班輪值的夜班費47億然後另外在"},{"start":356.769,"end":378.133,"text":"可是預算書上說是40億嘛 對吧我們總共是68.8億嘛那在直接獎勵部分三班是47億那三班互併比達標16億那另外還有新手臨床教師3.6億還有一個友善職場量2500萬所以總共是66.85億所以那你為什麼預算書是40然後你們又說是47"},{"start":387.424,"end":413.278,"text":"應該是這個部分應該是要用這個最新公告過的這個錢來看這不是新的嗎我要再確認一下這個數字這本來就是新的啊你們的預算書啊不是嗎怎麼會是新的舊的咧你們都搞不清楚我們確實是目前12項政策是總共是66.8"},{"start":415,"end":435.363,"text":"你們吶衛福部啊今年的預算就多了300億按照沒有復一的正常時間賴清德總統早就要公布這個總預算了這樣該給的津貼也不會延遲民進黨這樣子搞拖到上週才公布這樣我發現你們根本不在乎醫護人員領得到錢領不到錢的這個問題嘛那我再問你啊你在節目上還在市長你在節目還講說大陸考察費用"},{"start":445.496,"end":453.503,"text":"有這一筆嘛對不對對沒錯 那個是我們疾管署那現在總統發布17條希特勒的策略以後大陸還去嗎"},{"start":456.654,"end":484.364,"text":"欸 報告委員 那個我首先齁 我現在要澄清齁那個17條絕對不是 跟希特勒應該不相干啦這是第一個問題你偏不管 我問你問題 你回答我就好嘛另外第二個這個 欸 依我的了解你這麼急著笑怎麼幹什麼咧那個應該 可不可以去這個 我恐怕要問一下疾管署因為疾管署不是我的列管署因為按照民進黨的定義 你去就是中共同路人喔不會啦 那個欸 應該17條應該也不是這個 應該也不是這個意思吧"},{"start":485.523,"end":507.532,"text":"好啦 這個我不講了 我再講今天的主題就是說我們去年衛福部說要修訂居家是托育服務提供者的登記及管理辦法的法規嘛是是是那施防率從去年一年十次一年四次要提高到六次對 沒錯這個是我記得是薛律源部長所提的對 沒錯 沒錯 薛前部長所以他講的你們還認嗎 還算不算好 來 這個應該還來 我們請那個代理署長來"},{"start":514.855,"end":533.433,"text":"來跟委員說明一下 謝謝跟委員報告 在114年開始那公托的工作人員的薪資已經從三萬五千多元調到三萬八千我不管這個 一年六次你做得到嗎"},{"start":535.538,"end":550.107,"text":"訪視頻率一年六次在去年凱凱案發生之後那我們就已經把這個對於有這一類特殊狀況的兒童的訪視頻率已經加高了加到六次有確定六次你訪視人員有多少人你現在訪視人員有多少人"},{"start":553.329,"end":572.136,"text":"防事人員的部分現在一共有各縣市加起來一共有500多人總共有500人這樣人力夠嗎人力基本上是夠的基本是夠的我希望你們這個東西做到要做到要分擔他們的負擔其實我們對於各縣市這一類的人力那協助他們的行政人力我們另外還額外去對縣市政府還有一些支持的動作"},{"start":573.576,"end":588.189,"text":"那我再講我們少子化的問題剛剛我聽了一下前面幾個委員的諮詢我發現我們現在找不到誰負責是嗎?現在誰是?就是我們那個就是陳志中政委他來親自督導所以他會來委員會嗎?"},{"start":591.34,"end":603.324,"text":"都不會來我們要怎麼問呢你們到時候我們問你們推來推去到底我們要問什麼我們絕對不會推啦因為這個事實上真的是非常大家關心的好那我問你那107年到113年是計劃的總額是4851億對沒錯那今年又多了1253億對那100到113年4851億的預算用了多少執行率多少執行率的部分"},{"start":619.581,"end":626.916,"text":"所以你不知道嘛那你要怎麼回答我呢你會知道這樣我問你又答不出來那我們要怎麼問"},{"start":628.584,"end":634.986,"text":"我看到112年有做個報告他是算到110年那大概資訊率有95%那我現在講的就是說我們其實到現在這幾年的出生率不增反減"},{"start":650.56,"end":661.455,"text":"提醒你們的是我要提醒你們的是錢我們現在做的政策錢砸得越多我們年輕人越不想生小孩是不是這個方式這個做法是不是有待調整"},{"start":663.356,"end":681.187,"text":"你懂我意思嗎表示說我們錢沒有花在刀口上是是是對不對沒錯所以我們不要說因為我們現在又多變了1200億我相信如果沒有改效果還是不會好是是是好不好那這部分我請你們剛剛你看多久的時間可以寫個這個檢討報告給我們還有改進的多久好多久可以"},{"start":689.364,"end":694.08,"text":"我們在兩個月之內 我們趕快跟委員報告好不好好 謝謝市長再次感謝邱委員 謝謝好 謝謝李志還有謝謝邱曾經"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時7分）好，謝謝主席。今天法務部有來，我先請朱主任檢察官。","主任檢察官好。公共政策網路參與平臺發起連署，要求虐童致殘者，加重刑責至無期徒刑；虐童致死者，判處無期徒刑、死刑。任何虐童、性侵案件，皆不得假釋。這個連署現在有14萬人的附議，這件事您知道嗎？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：知道。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你知道喔！在剴剴案第四次開庭的時候，你們黃謀信次長說凌虐幼童去年已經完成修法，加重相關的刑責規定，至於是否再行修法，本部尊重相關的修法建議，當然也會廣納各界意見，妥適研議，現在對於這個訴求，你們要在5月16號回應。當初國民黨提的就是虐童致死，最高處無期徒刑跟死刑，只是當時民進黨委員反對，法務部也不支持，現在你們的態度呢？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：就如同我們次長所說，我們還是會廣徵意見，也會再做整體的審慎研議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我聽不太清楚，你講清楚，太小聲了。"],["朱主任檢察官華君：好，就如同我們次長所說的，雖然在去年我們已經完成了一次修法，在刑法第二百八十六條有針對未滿七歲之人……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我簡單問，如果我們再次送，你們會支持嗎？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：我們尊重。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是要等賴清德總統的意思，你們才決定？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：我想就是尊重委員的任何意見。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們的立場都是一樣的，不要以拖待變。"],["朱主任檢察官華君：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這種事情，你不要每一次有事情發生了，才把這事情拿出來討論，等拖到後面，然後沒事了、沒人講了，就算了。"],["朱主任檢察官華君：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得這部分應該要快一點。"],["朱主任檢察官華君：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這種虐童本來就是零容忍。"],["朱主任檢察官華君：了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想我們大家要有同理心，好不好？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：是、是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，主任檢察官你等一下。我們請衛福部次長。","次長，你在節目上說在野黨刪預算造成急診壅塞，請教一下，公然造謠是誰下的指令？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我先簡單還原一下，因為上一次在大院這邊，我想委員也都非常關心相關護理人員，那有關護理人員的部分，目前照護司是統刪10%、凍結30%，依比例原則算下來的話，大概是2,200萬。至於業務推動，老實說，其實我有問過司長那邊，確實會受到相關的影響，不過……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是啊！這是今年年初的事情而已耶！對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，不過那時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼那麼快就反應了呢？"],["呂次長建德：因為那時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們做事情真的有反應那麼快嗎？"],["呂次長建德：因為我受訪的時候，那時候其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你用猜的嘛！你用預判是嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員，非常感謝委員的關心，獎勵的部分委員也是大力支持，3月21日我們公告已經可以動支了，3月21日。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以嘛！你們前面在公然造謠，根本還沒發生的事你就已經在講了嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒有啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想問主任檢察官一下，如果公然造謠，散布假新聞、假消息，這樣會觸犯什麼法律？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：觸犯……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是我來講，我看你不好意思講。刑事責任部分，可能構成刑法第三百一十條誹謗罪、第三百零九條公然侮辱罪、第一百五十一條恐嚇公眾罪、第一百五十三條煽惑他人犯罪或違背法令罪等；行政責任部分，散佈謠言，足以影響公共之安寧者，可依社會秩序維護法第六十三條第一項第五款規定，處三日以下拘留或三萬元以下罰鍰，這樣對吧？對哦？好，主任檢察官請回。","我再問一下次長，你說護理人員夜班津貼沒領到是因為什麼？預算凍結嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對，我剛剛跟委員報告，就是說我們有刪的部分，另外……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有刪嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有刪10%，凍結是30%，按照比例原則算下來的話，護理師的部分大概有2,200萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你知道護理人員的夜班津貼放在哪個計畫裡面嗎？"],["呂次長建德：在12項中長期計畫裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，沒錯。那凍結多少錢？你說凍結多少錢？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：委員好。剛剛那個部分，業務費的部分，次長說的是業務費有凍結跟刪減的，那這個是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們現在講的是津貼。"],["陳代理副司長青梅：津貼是獎補助的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["陳代理副司長青梅：目前獎補助在3月21日公告之後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：只有凍結多少錢？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：目前沒有凍結。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！當時好像凍結300萬而已嘛！"],["陳代理副司長青梅：對，凍結300萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：後來就拿掉了嘛！對不對？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：這是最近公告以後解凍。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！那你怎麼可以說我們去刪減呢？還有一個……"],["陳代理副司長青梅：那是整體預算在審查過程……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有刪減？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：沒有，獎勵費沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也沒有嘛！對不對？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：獎補助沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那今年預算將近69億，我想請問一下，這69億準備要花在哪裡？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：我們目前是三班輪值的夜班費47億，另外在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是預算書上說是40億，對吧？你們是可以……"],["陳代理副司長青梅：我們總共是68.8億嘛！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["陳代理副司長青梅：在直接獎勵的部分，三班是47億，三班護病比達標16億，另外還有一個新手臨床教師3.6億，還有一個友善職場2,500萬，所以總共是66.85億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！那你為什麼預算書是40億，然後你們又說是47億？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：這個部分應該要用最新公告過的錢來看。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個不是新的嗎？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：要再確認一下這個數字。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這本來就是新的啊！你們的預算書啊！不是嗎？怎麼會是什麼新的、舊的呢？你們都搞不清楚。"],["陳代理副司長青梅：好，這個部分我再確認一下，我們確實目前12項政策總共是68.8億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們衛福部今年的預算就多了300億，按照沒有覆議的正常時間，賴清德總統早就要公布總預算了，這樣該給的津貼也不會延遲，民進黨這樣子搞，拖到上週才公布，我發現你們根本不在乎醫護人員領得到錢、領不到錢的問題。","次長，那我再問你，你在節目上還講說大陸考察費用，有這一筆，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，那個是我們疾管署。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，在賴清德總統發布17條希特勒的策略以後，大陸還去嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我首先要澄清，那個17條跟希特勒應該不相干啦！這是第一個重點。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，你先不管，我問的問題你回答我就好。"],["呂次長建德：好。第二個，依我的瞭解，疾管署應該……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這麼急著消毒幹什麼呢？"],["呂次長建德：可不可以去，這個我恐怕要問一下疾管署，因為疾管署不是我列管的業務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果按照民進黨的定義，你去就是中共同路人哦！"],["呂次長建德：不會啦！17條應該也不是這個意思吧！"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！這個我不講了。我現在講今天的主題，去年衛福部說要修訂居家式托育服務提供者登記及管理辦法的法規嘛？"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：視訪率從一年4次要提高到6次，這個我記得是薛瑞元部長所提的。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，薛前部長他的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他講的你們還認嗎？還算不算？"],["呂次長建德：我們請代理署長來跟委員說明，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還算不算？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，114年開始，公托工作人員的薪資已經從三萬五千多元調到三萬八千出頭，這個我們也調高了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我不管這個，我現在不是問這個。一年6次你做得到嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：訪視頻率1年6次，在去年剴剴案發生之後，我們對於這一類特殊狀況兒童的訪視頻率已經加高了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：加到多少？"],["周代理署長道君：加到6次。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有確定6次？"],["周代理署長道君：有，確定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：訪視人員有多少人？"],["周代理署長道君：已經拉高了，加到6次。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在訪視人員有多少人？"],["周代理署長道君：訪視人員的部分，現在各縣市加起來一共有五百多人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：總共有500人，這樣的人力夠嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：人力基本上是夠的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：基本是夠的。"],["周代理署長道君：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我希望你們這個東西說到要做到啦！"],["周代理署長道君：要分擔他們的負擔，其實我們對於各縣市這一類人力，協助他們的行政人力，我們還有額外去對縣市政府有一些支持的動作。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再講我們少子化的問題，剛剛我聽了前面幾個委員的質詢，我發現我們現在找不到誰負責，是嗎？現在誰是……"],["呂次長建德：有，就是陳時中政委他親自來督導……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他會來委員會嗎？他不會來，我們要怎麼問？到時候我們問，你們推來推去，到底我們要問誰？"],["呂次長建德：我們絕對不會推啦！因為這個真的是大家非常關心的國安問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我問你，107年到113年的計畫總額是4,851億，那今年又多了1,253億嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：到113年，4,851億的預算用了多少？執行率多少？"],["呂次長建德：執行率的部分，因為分散各個部會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！所以你不知道嘛！那你要怎麼回答我呢？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們又說你會知道，我問你又答不出來，那我們要怎麼問？到底誰可以負責？"],["呂次長建德：我是不是可以會後提供給委員？好不好？因為它現在確實分散……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我跟你講啦！到一百……"],["呂次長建德：因為有教育部的部分，也有我們衛福部，也有勞動部。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到112年有做個報告，它是算到110年，大概執行率有95%，我現在要講的是說，我們其實到現在，這幾年的出生率不增反減啦！不增反減，我要提醒你們的是，我們現在做的政策，錢砸得越多，年輕人越不想生小孩，是不是這個方式、這個做法有待調整？你懂我意思嗎？"],["呂次長建德：嗯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：表示我們的錢沒有花在刀口上，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為現在又多編了1,200億，我相信如果沒有改，效果還是不會好，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這部分你看多久的時間可以寫個檢討報告給我？包括改進的部分，多久？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：多久可以？"],["呂次長建德：我們在兩個月之內趕快跟委員報告，好不好？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，兩個月，謝謝次長。"],["呂次長建德：再次感謝邱委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂次，謝謝邱鎮軍。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時18分）","繼續開會（11時30分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來就不休息了，一直到委員質詢完畢後再結束。","請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉",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全序部部長委員長全序部長 你兩個在那裡開工 開工我要叫你起床我忘記了"},{"start":13.59,"end":38.333,"text":"我想兩個問題來就教就是說我們這一次我看你們的草案裡面有提出新增的公務人員職場霸凌及兩大過免職這件事情我特別要來就教全序部現在提出公務人員考機法的一個修正草案那增列了一次及兩大過免職的一個條件然後公務人員保障法這個"},{"start":40.074,"end":57.915,"text":"一般大家講說在定義整個職場的霸凌當然是要去建構一個防治跟處理的一個機制那我想是不是先請這個全區部部長來說明一下你們這兩個修法的一個草案你們具體的修正後你發現有什麼樣一個區別沒有"},{"start":59.929,"end":88.262,"text":"保訓會的保訓會的那我的我是跟著保訓會來的修了烤雞法那就好玩了那就是兩個法裡面你怎麼樣讓它會比較更明確這個才是一個重點你像譬如說我們去談到目前以大家現在在看到的保護食物上的共通的要件都是在講說霸凌都是在講說你發生在工作場所或者說有一個持續性或者說一個敵意的一個行為或者身心壓力的一個傷害"},{"start":88.903,"end":104.083,"text":"大部分都是在談這些本來的法案裡面講到性侵或者是酒駕這個法律上它本身有很嚴格的規定我相信這兩個要件沒有問題可是霸凌這個部分我看就"},{"start":105.114,"end":133.633,"text":"大家就開始灰啊你知道嗎實務上到底現在有沒有一個共通的一個要件相對來講霸凌的定義確實是比性侵性殺或者是酒駕比較模糊啦不過這就是保障法要處理的一個意思所以我的意思就是因為你一個草案要推出來我這邊是特別來做一個叮嚀跟提醒你說性犯罪 酒駕 毒駕這個形式的一個法源裡面跟社會上這些都有共識沒有問題啦"},{"start":135.174,"end":155.536,"text":"但執掌爸你這個定義很模糊啊你適應上你怎麼樣去把這些比較核心的濃縮到最後的一個共通要件我相信這才是這一支修法的核心的一個挑戰譬如說你注意我往下一頁來看一下就是說那這一些呢我們過去從實務上我們去看到了"},{"start":157.054,"end":174.124,"text":"從不管是法院或者是行政部門大家在做裁處的時候都會去講到說你連續積極的行為就侵害到人格權 民意權 健康權認為是霸凌的一個核心但是這個行為包括它很多行為的太陽還有它的次數 頻率 人數損害的權益 動機跟目的"},{"start":181.192,"end":207.249,"text":"你看上一次那個整個勞動部喔說說平常都沒人發電都沒事都沒事 職場霸凌都沒有事那一社會上這個媒體一披露以後那甚至於火一燒起來以後人家搞砸嘛 人家搞砸嘛要不然 一個炒下去 馬上就要收押啦這個案子後續怎麼樣我不太清楚啦但是我的意思就是說非常兩極啦"},{"start":208.556,"end":231.708,"text":"行政部門在看待這種事情是非常兩極啊所以我希望說我們這一次啊這個兩部草案的時候啊呵呵啊 看會不會有辦法可以這樣送到社會可以接受啦尤其是我看最主要也不是說霸凌的問題啦最主要是事情發生以後這個過程的調查的一個程序啊那到底"},{"start":234.192,"end":263.496,"text":"到底這個程序在做調查的時候有沒有符合公平或者說在整個過程裡面對當事人 因為動不動一成立以後你就剛好兩大國就免職了那也不要因為說這是一個高度的新聞事件然後對一般公務人來講的話這個差不多卡到80的職場 寶座每天衝的比較大沒死也都破條命我不曉得您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":265.735,"end":284.439,"text":"跟委員報告這個保障法跟安慰辦法是這個我們目前呢新增的部分呢特別都是針對職場霸凌那第一個就是委員您剛剛提到職場霸凌的定義那個在這個保障法裡面呢就會直接明確的把它界定那也就是"},{"start":285.781,"end":300.276,"text":"參酌這個法院的判例那同時我們也已經分析了請這個學者分析過去所有霸凌案件至少到保訓會來的他成立跟不成立的一些要件還有法院是怎麼判的所以呢我們也會有一條呢"},{"start":301.337,"end":316.291,"text":"特別去針對說他審酌各式各樣的原因那這當中包含除了持續性以外呢他如果是一次性雖然他放在不法侵害可是他也如果也很嚴重的話呢那當然他也是屬於其中的目前我們是朝這個方案規劃"},{"start":317.532,"end":345.874,"text":"那第二個就是說這個有關於調查程序的部分這是我們這一次裡面很重要的一個重點那在機關的調查程序裡面呢它的外部的委員的組成我們做了非常嚴格的規範那至少都要二分之一二分之一都是外部的那如果它今天是機關首長的話那它的外部的委員呢至少要超過三分之二那如果說後續那還有不服或是還有爭議的話呢"},{"start":347.615,"end":357.662,"text":"也會透過這個我們保訊會他不管來救濟或在行政裁罰的過程裡面呢我們都會有介入調查程序面是我們非常重要的"},{"start":378.374,"end":393.319,"text":"變成事業沒發展的時候 放在公務人員在職場裡面讓他職場上受到霸凌可是呢 又很擔心 我很擔心新聞事件一燒起來的時候你們又濫權 然後到最後又去傷及到無辜"},{"start":394.352,"end":415.402,"text":"本席的重點是在於說你應該去明確的規範來建立一個調查的依據你去確保正當的一個法律程序這個都涉及到人權的保障就是因為剛好要提這兩個法律我特別在這邊做提醒 是 謝謝委員那另外我想要針對這一次我看你們考試院在2月13號"},{"start":417.844,"end":443.001,"text":"去拜會了行政院的卓院長其實從五權分立來看的話這個是一個利益良善的一個願計的溝通可是這樣的溝通裡面我看重點也不在於只是禮貌性的一個拜會應該是說怎麼樣去跟行政院來實際的推動我國公務人事制度的一個改革還有就是說"},{"start":443.901,"end":451.771,"text":"讓國家考試跟用人制度的一個與時俱進啊我不知道秘書長你們拜會後具體的成果是什麼"},{"start":453.415,"end":473.485,"text":"跟委員報告就是這拜會意義就是在於我們國家特殊的這個政府體制之下因為我們把考試跟用人切開那人事的法制跟管理也切開所以他需要兩院之間去密切的協調合作那這次具體成果我們有列出幾個比較急迫性的議題比如說我們的醫護人員的考試的品質"},{"start":474.705,"end":503.127,"text":"這個需要投注資源並且跟交易部跟衛福部來合作第二個部分是針對有些入局不足額的比較嚴重的一些高風險的類科這幾個類科我們要有一個跨部會的機制來進行其他幾個議題我不一一列舉但是委員關心的進度就是我們目前有幾個機制都已經正在啟動當中所以我們跟衛福部或是跟人總還有跟工程會這邊都有相關的合作機制一直在滾動往前走"},{"start":503.467,"end":518.653,"text":"我去看了你們的新聞稿,我去看了你們去講到說搶救現在的醫護人才,黃江秘書長剛剛提到的還有有關機關搶救工人人報考書,如土木類的一個類科跟人事行政總署組成一個工作圈來加強這個合作"},{"start":520.894,"end":547.261,"text":"前面兩個我可以想像啦 前面兩個我可以想像啦畢竟考試院是一個伴侶考試的一個單位啊一個一定是針對需求來設計但第三個我就非常有想法啦 第三個就是說你過去這個考試院跟人總都說 兩個公雞生不出蛋一個負責考試 一個負責這個員額的一個評鑑啦其實兩個單位都非常需要相關的一個單位來一起來配合 否則喔"},{"start":548.061,"end":560.328,"text":"孤掌難鳴啦 我跟你講所以我今天特別要講出來的就是這兩個單位這樣息息相關公務人員的一個考試喔那只是個科技而已重點不是在考試"},{"start":561.403,"end":578.295,"text":"是看有沒有辦法把握到找到真的有需要的人你看我這一次我們這個運動部要去成立組織法修訂以後我都還非常有感覺就是說你這個成立之後要怎麼去找那個人 適當的有專才運動部 什麼叫運動部那叫什麼要叫什麼人 把什麼人錄下來不然你成立一個運動組織在做 不是只要升格而已你也要有專業"},{"start":590.213,"end":613.866,"text":"這課要怎麼課啊?不中這要怎麼課?必須要找人,要找什麼人說憲學院放大運動部不是這個人放在教育部,不是放在法務部所以我要請教一下你們的高見,就是說公務人員真的你要去通過考試可以找到這些專業的人嗎?就算你脫離這個公務體系,你到民間去找都不一定找得到"},{"start":615.319,"end":638.732,"text":"我都覺得都不一定找得到所以你說組織改造有新的發展的一個方向可是你這樣拖下去的公務人員如果觀念沒有改變專業沒有去跟上的話你整個組織改造我看這都會很麻煩所以我不知道說組織改造要怎麼樣才有意義拖下去之後我覺得任何的一個行政部門都一樣具備這個資格以後沒有再去做在職進修不好"},{"start":645.461,"end":661.498,"text":"不好啦 大家去問一般行政 無法等 什麼無法等所以呢請教秘書長就是說這部分我們公務人員的在職進修跟訓練你的藍圖到底是什麼有沒有辦法再做細緻的一個規劃"},{"start":664.056,"end":692.777,"text":"跟委員報告在職進修的部分他就表示用人機關的職權所以他是人總的業務那也是各機關自己也要去努力的部分所以我才說你們跟人總那個部分如果委員講沒有錯就是說教考訓用就是從教育端培養人才到考試做人才的篩選但篩選的不能全部靠考試還有後端的訓練來強化他的那個符合他工作這個核心職能的能力後面的用人機關的角色所以他的確是一個需要去跨部會"},{"start":694.139,"end":708.034,"text":"我剛剛看吳宗憲招委對你們提出了很多叮嚀啊那個幾乎喔 那如果來拜託行政院會比較快找你們覺得有一點文不對題但是你們也是 其實你們雖然叫考試院啊你們也定義是一個考試行政而已啊"},{"start":708.575,"end":723.961,"text":"那其實講句實話這是因為是五權憲法啊不然你們跟行政部門有什麼差別你們真的是看起來沒有像實質上的一個差別但我最後要特別提醒的就是說其實很多很多現在的層級裡面你們拉到高到"},{"start":724.561,"end":739.644,"text":"兩院喔 但就不能只是說解決眼前緣兒不足的一個問題啦也必須要去考量到整體人力退休跟轉型的一個策略啦我為什麼這樣提出來就是說你們現在喔對各職系裡面年齡結構偏高報考人數年年下降再職人員異動力也偏高這個部分喔"},{"start":747.608,"end":759.012,"text":"監測的部分到底有沒有做到有沒有做得好每一年你們應該去啟動對於整個人才儲備跟用人的調整有沒有什麼樣的一個策略這是重點"},{"start":762.709,"end":786.888,"text":"我能提這個想法我很贊成但現況上這樣就是說我們也是有幾個預警的機制比如說考試端這邊的這個錄取狀況或分發狀況那另外在人力的現場管理上面如果有特別的流失我想人事的一條邊這邊一定也會有相關的預警那過去只要碰到問題其實大家會有一個協調解決的機制"},{"start":788.689,"end":813.621,"text":"但是當然就是說一時獲得緩解但是如果後面出現像土木工程這種比較結構性的大的變化的話它現在的確會變成一個比較難棘手的議題所以我們才要來跟這個跨部門你剛提到那個土木工程的部分這個也不是第一天第二天發生的問題你這個錄取不足不是短期的一個現象那代表了什麼人才流失跟制度老化的問題都存在都沒有改變"},{"start":814.741,"end":842.815,"text":"因為他現在現場流失的速度非常快所以他的報缺的增長速度遠遠超過我們錄取名額增加的速度所以這個我這樣跟你建議就是說你們這個直系年齡結構過高的或者報考的人數年年下降在職人員流動率的一個偏高的部分你們確實應該去啟動這個整個人才的一個儲備跟用年策略的一個調整積極去做一個應對好不好"},{"start":844.376,"end":868.058,"text":"我覺得是蠻好的啦這兩個 其中兩個題目我一定會跟蘇俊榮講因為資料庫都在他那裡他可以透過人事一條編的方式真的可以算得出每一個機關那兩個一跟三年度的變化那透過人事一條編隨時提供給機關首長我想這是一個最快的方式這就我跟您說的啦兩隻公雞都到最後又不會下蛋了啦生不出蛋來了啦"},{"start":868.902,"end":889.495,"text":"讓他下來 我會跟他講這是長期存在的問題啊我跟吳宗憲、張偉講的層次不一樣啦兩個人討論議題不一樣 可是回歸到最後就是你們兩個考試院 沒辦法你們叫做院理 叫做人總理但是這個沒有去合作去解決不行啦 好不好好 謝謝謝謝莊委員我們稍後再讓莊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時1分）謝謝主席，有請考試院秘書長。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：麻煩秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：銓敘部部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：銓敘部長，你們兩個在那邊聊天，我要叫你上台，你就忘記了。"],["施部長能傑：沒有啦，有事情，不好意思。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有兩個問題要來就教，這一次我看你們的草案裡面有新增公務人員職場霸凌記兩大過免職，這件事情我特別要來就教。銓敘部現在提出公務人員考績法的修正草案，增列了一次記兩大過免職的條件，而公務人員保障法一般是在定義整個職場的霸凌，當然是要去建構一個防治跟處理機制，是不是先請銓敘部部長說明一下，這兩個修法草案具體修正後，你發現有什麼樣的區別？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，後面那個法是保訓會的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：保訓會的？"],["施部長能傑：我是跟著保訓會修考績法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那就好玩了，兩個法裡面你怎麼樣讓它更明確，這才是一個重點。譬如說，我們談到目前大家看到法務實務上的共通要件，霸凌都是在講發生在工作場所，或者說有持續性，或者說敵意的行為，或者說造成身心壓力的傷害，大部分都在談這些。在本來的法裡面就有講到性侵或者是酒駕，在法律上，它本身有很嚴格的規定，我相信這兩個要件沒有問題，可是霸凌這個部分，我看大家就開始「花了」，實務上現在到底有沒有一個共通的要件？"],["施部長能傑：相對來講，霸凌的定義確實是比性侵、性騷或者是酒駕模糊，不過這就是保障法要處理的一個議題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是因為你們一個草案要推出來，我這邊特別叮嚀跟提醒，像性犯罪、酒駕、毒駕在刑事法源裡面跟社會上都有共識，沒有問題啦！但職場霸凌這個定義很模糊，你怎麼樣把這些比較核心的濃縮到最後的一個共通要件？我相信這才是這次修法核心的挑戰。譬如說我們過去從實務上所看到的，不管是法院或者是行政部門，大家在做裁處的時候都會想到連續積極行為侵害到人格權、名譽權、健康權，認為這是霸凌的核心，但是這個行為包括很多行為態樣，還有次數頻率、人數、損害的權益、動機跟目的。你看上一次整個勞動部，平常沒人發現的時候都沒事，職場霸凌都沒有事，社會上媒體一披露以後，甚至於火一燒起來以後，人過世了，到最後一查下去，馬上就被收押了，這個案子後續怎麼樣我不太清楚啦，但是我的意思就是說非常兩極啦！行政部門在看待這種事情是非常兩極的，所以我希望我們這次修這兩部草案的時候能夠好好的修，看看有沒有辦法做到讓社會可以接受。我看最主要也不是霸凌的問題，最主要是事情發生以後這個調查的程序，在調查的時候到底這個程序有沒有符合公平？或者在整個過程裡面對於當事人，因為一成立以後記兩大過就免職了，也不要因為這是一個高度的新聞事件，對一般公務人員來講，遇到霸凌，報紙、媒體如果報得比較大的話，不死也半條命了，我不曉得您的看法怎麼樣？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，關於保障法跟安衛辦法，我們目前新增的部分特別都是針對職場霸凌，第一個就是委員您剛剛提到職場霸凌的定義，在保障法裡面就會直接、明確的把它界定，也就是參酌法院的判例。同時我們也已經分析了，請學者分析過去所有霸凌案件，至少到保訓會來的，成立跟不成立的一些要件，還有法院是怎麼判的。所以我們也會有一條特別去針對他要審酌各式各樣的原因，這當中包含除了持續性以外，如果是一次性，雖然它放在不法侵害，可是如果也很嚴重的話，那當然它也是屬於其中的，目前我們是朝這個方向規劃。","第二個，有關於調查程序的部分，這是我們這次很重要的一個重點，在機關的調查程序裡面，其外部委員的組成，我們做了非常嚴格的規範，至少都要二分之一，即二分之一都是外部的，如果他今天是機關首長的話，那外部委員至少要超過三分之二，如果後續還有不服或是還有爭議的話，也會透過我們保訓會，不管是救濟或是行政裁罰的過程裡面，我們都會介入調查，程序面是我們非常重要的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這是我寫的，這不是小抄啦！一、二、三、四、五，那叫做大抄。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這些我們會參考。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你要提供一個可執行的標準。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：關於調查程序，當然你嘴巴講公正，那你要可供檢視嘛，讓人最擔心的就是說，平常沒發現的時候讓公務人員在職場裡面受到霸凌，可是又很擔心，我很擔心的是新聞事件一燒起來的時候你們又濫權，然後到最後又去傷及無辜。本席的重點在於，你應該去明確的規範來建立一個調查的依據，去確保正當的法律程序，這個都涉及人權保障，因為剛好要提這兩個法律，我特別在這邊提醒，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外，我想要針對這一次，我看你們考試院在2月13號拜會了行政院卓院長嘛。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要請教秘書長，其實從五權分立來看的話，這是立意良善的院際溝通，可是這樣的溝通裡面，我看重點也不只是禮貌性的拜會，應該是說怎麼樣去跟行政院來實際推動我國公務人事制度的改革，還有讓國家考試跟用人制度與時俱進。我不知道秘書長你們拜會之後的具體成果是什麼。"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，這個拜會的意義就是在於我們國家特殊的政府體制之下，因為我們把考試跟用人切開，人事的法制跟管理也切開，所以需要兩院之間密切的協調、合作，而這次的具體成果，我們有列出幾個比較急迫性的議題，比如說我們醫護人員的考試品質，這個需要投注資源，並且跟教育部、衛福部來合作；第二個部分是針對有些錄取不足額的、比較嚴重的一些高風險的類科，這幾個類科我們要有一個跨部會的機制來進行，其他幾個議題我不一一列舉。委員所關心的進度，目前我們有幾個機制都已經正在啟動當中，所以我們跟衛福部或是跟人總，還有跟公懲會都有相關的合作機制，一直在滾動往前走。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我去看了你們的新聞稿，你們講到要搶救現在的醫護人才，秘書長剛剛提到了，還有有關機關搶救公務人員報考數，如土木類科，跟人事行政總處組成一個工作圈加強合作。前面兩個我可以想像，畢竟考試院是一個辦理考試的單位，一定是針對需求來設計，但第三個我就非常有想法，過去考試院跟人總都說兩個公雞生不出蛋，一個負責考試，一個負責員額評鑑，其實兩個單位都非常需要相關單位一起配合，否則孤掌難鳴，我跟你說。所以我今天特別要說出來，這兩個單位息息相關，公務人員考試就只是一個考試而已，它的重點不是在考試，是看有沒有辦法拔擢到真的有需要的人。你看這一次運動部要成立，在組織法修訂以後，我都非常有感覺，這個成立以後要怎麼去找那些適當有專才的人？運動部為什麼叫做運動部？要找什麼人？放什麼樣的人過去？組織再造不是只有升格而已，也要有專業，但這個考試要怎麼考？部長，這要怎麼考？秘書長，這要去哪裡找人？要去哪裡找什麼人說適合把他放在運動部，而不是把這個人放在教育部，也不是放在法務部？所以我要請教一下你們的高見，公務人員真的可以透過考試找到這些專業的人嗎？就算脫離這個公務體系，到民間去找都不一定找得到，我都覺得不一定找得到。所以你說組織改造有一個新的發展方向，可是考進來的公務人員如果觀念沒有改變，專業沒有跟上的話，整個組織改造，我都覺得這會很麻煩，所以我不知道組織改造要怎麼樣才有意義。考進來之後，我覺得任何一個行政部門都一樣，具備這個資格以後沒有再去在職進修，沒有用啊！大家進去都是一般行政，隨便放，隨便亂放。","請教秘書長，關於公務人員的在職進修跟訓練，你的藍圖到底是什麼？有沒有辦法再做細緻的規劃？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，在職進修的部分比較是用人機關的職權，所以它是人總的業務，也是各機關自己要去努力的部分。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我才說你們跟人總那個部分。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員講得沒有錯，就是教考訓用，從教育端培養人才，到考試做人才的篩選，但篩選的不能全部靠考試，還有後端的訓練……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["劉秘書長建忻：強化符合他工作核心職能的能力，還有後面用人機關的角色，所以它的確是一個需要跨部會、跨機關的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我剛剛看吳宗憲召委對你們提出很多叮嚀，那個拜託行政院會比較快，找你們感覺有一點文不對題。你們雖然叫考試院，其實你們也等於是一個考試行政而已，講句實話，因為是五權憲法，不然你們跟行政部門哪有什麼差別？你們看起來真的沒有實質上的差別。但我最後要特別提醒的就是，其實很多現在的層級裡面，你們拉高到兩院，就不能只是解決眼前員額不足的問題，也必須要去考量到整體人力退休跟轉型的策略，我為什麼這樣提出來？你們現在對各職系裡面年齡結構偏高、報考人數年年下降、在職人員異動率也偏高，監測的部分到底有沒有做到？有沒有做得好？每一年你們應該啟動對於整個人才儲備跟用人的調整。有沒有什麼樣的策略？這個是重點！"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員提的這個想法我很贊成，但現況上是這樣，我們也是有幾個預警的機制，比如說考試端這邊的錄取狀況或分發狀況，另外在人力的現場管理上面，如果有特別流失，我想人事一條鞭，這邊一定也會有相關的預警。過去只要碰到問題，其實大家會有一個協調解決的機制，當然是一時獲得緩解，但如果後面出現像土木工程這種比較結構性大的變化的話，它現在的確會變成一個比較棘手的議題，所以我們才要跨部門處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你剛剛提到土木工程的部分，這個也不是第一天、第二天發生的問題，錄取不足額不是短期的現象啊！這代表了什麼？人才流失跟制度老化的問題全部都存在、都沒有改革。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，因為現在現場流失的速度非常快，所以它的報缺增長速度遠遠超過我們錄取名額增加的速度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我這樣跟你建議，職系年齡結構過高的，或者報考人數年年下降、在職人員流動率偏高的部分，你們確實應該啟動整個人才儲備跟用人策略的調整，積極去應對，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：委員，我覺得這滿好的啦！其中兩個題目我一定會跟蘇俊榮講，因為資料庫都在他那裡，他可以透過人事一條鞭的方式，真的可以算得出每一個機關那兩個（簡報所列1和3）的年度變化，透過人事一條鞭，隨時提供給機關首長，我想這是一個最快的方式。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你說，兩隻公雞都到最後又不會下蛋啦！生不出蛋來了。"],["施部長能傑：這次我一定讓牠下蛋，我會跟他講，我會好好地跟他講。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這是長期存在的問題，我跟吳宗憲召委講的層次不一樣，兩個議題不一樣，可是回歸到最後就是你們兩個，沒辦法，考試院叫做「院」，一個叫做「人總」，但是沒有去合作、去解決，不行啦！好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","我們稍後在楊瓊瓔委員詢答完畢之後休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請洪委員孟楷進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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我們麻煩秘書長請秘書長委員長好 那我想請問一下"},{"start":25.811,"end":54.175,"text":"考試院這邊就是一個很簡單的問題我想說我們提到公務員的中立規定的時候其實我們很清楚就是目前的作為是把常任文官跟政務官其實是在行政中立上面是有一個區別嘛對不對那我先想請教一下考試院公務員下班或者是假日可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會或是為特定候選人站台"},{"start":54.855,"end":72.7,"text":"然後喊動算 可以這樣嗎我請部長來說明好 請部長中立法裡面還是有規範它好像第九條之後還是有規範不管上下班時間 工人不可以做的行為是 好 那部長這個是指常任文官對不對對 沒錯好 那"},{"start":73.941,"end":96.702,"text":"其實今天我是覺得就常任務官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯但是呢就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的政務官的部分確實依照目前的中立法它是好像是排除掉政務官的適用但是呢我想請問一下那政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務就法律的精神"},{"start":97.785,"end":121.29,"text":"我想就法律精神政務官不可以動用這個公家的資源去從事他政黨的一個活動或者政治性的活動我想這是一個作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理的規範我的意思是說就依照法律的精神政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務要看委員界定的行政中立的內涵是什麼"},{"start":122.401,"end":140.942,"text":"因為根據我們法律裡面 我們行政中立 老實說它是一個比較廣泛的一個界定啦並我們沒有真正界定做行政中立法真正的行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動啦好 那沒關係啦 這樣好了那我來直接跟你們說齁其實公務員的行政中立法並不是說"},{"start":142.183,"end":165.478,"text":"並不是說政務官沒有行政中立的義務而是說他要求是另立專法所以我查到了公務人員行政中立法第二條他的立法理由其實說得很清楚他主要是提到就是說因為政務官他是屬於政治任命或是民選所產生他跟常任文官有別所以這個部分他以另專法來規範"},{"start":168.82,"end":181.923,"text":"對不對但是呢我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法嘛之前有幾個早案提出來但是目前都沒有立法成功那我想請問一下現在考試院這邊有什麼想法就政務官的部分"},{"start":184.439,"end":206.228,"text":"我跟你們報告 政務官這個體系我知道在社會上有不同的討論不過考試院根據憲法執掌是負責公務人員那畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人所以如果有這方面的一個議題 需要專責立法這應該會是屬於行政院的推測沒有啊 你考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員卡"},{"start":210.009,"end":236.011,"text":"草案啊當初曾經有送過這不是說跟你們無關啊不過行政院那邊後來有一些意見就是說政務人員應該是由行政院這邊因為畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責而且包括地方政府相關議題所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的那個那個考試院執掌就是公務人員這個概念的話我想這是兩院要繼續去做討論的部分到底如果真的有必要要往這邊立法的話是由哪一個"},{"start":236.972,"end":251.436,"text":"院來負責不是 這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法"},{"start":254.477,"end":283.858,"text":"他是說另外要有專法而不是說他沒有行政中立的義務結果呢現在大家的解釋變成說這個行政中立只有事務官常樂文官要政務官沒有現在變成這樣子啊那以我所了解的民進黨的做法我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線但是現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣然後他的作為甚至還低於道德低於法律違法只要不被抓到民進黨都覺得OK啊"},{"start":284.278,"end":312.537,"text":"那在這個角度來說因為我最近看到行政院變成是全國最大競選總部行政院變成全國最大的大二霸的總部那這樣就不對了嘛這樣子政務官他也是領國家的錢不要講別的啦你今天你搭車出去坐公務車出去你的水戶出去你的助理出去這些都是國家的經費所養的人嘛國家經費所支付的那你說政務官不是一般的公務員所以"},{"start":313.197,"end":323.201,"text":"所以也不歸你們管也不歸什麼然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案希望就政務官的部分規範就現在不能說現在反而又不管你們的事了嗎應該是說"},{"start":326.538,"end":343.13,"text":"是不是由考試院來提出政務委員法這件事情一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論那我回到行政中立的部分就是說政務官也不是如果委員所說並不是完全沒有行政中立的相當規範就是剛剛部長也有講如果你動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以"},{"start":343.73,"end":364.131,"text":"那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的"},{"start":364.992,"end":392.365,"text":"程度有所區別 這個我都可以接受也不會很無理的要求說絕對兩個要拉到一樣但是我要一直在講最近這段時間發生的事情譬如說行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全台灣到處搞了在那邊喊大罷免還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉的政策宣傳"},{"start":393.385,"end":420.844,"text":"那這個東西叫我怎麼相信它是一個行政中立的概念好 那之前那個草屯的政長補選嘛那在那個補選的會場的時候我們的那個政次 那個誰 那個陳時中還有我們現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎那這兩個人 他是政務官沒有錯但是呢 他卻在現場 在那邊助選然後在那邊講一些有的沒的 甚至在講罷免的事情"},{"start":421.664,"end":441.618,"text":"但是我就想回到我剛剛說的這些人去那邊他也是掛他的官銜去他並不是用他個人的名義去再來他去的時候就我剛剛講的他要不要使用他的公務車他要不要使用他的隨扈那有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈那這些也不就是公"},{"start":442.642,"end":463.799,"text":"公共的費用嗎所以我在這邊講啦我剛剛回到剛剛我說的我不是說政務官他對於新任總理的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣但是是不是考試院這邊你能夠去思考一個點既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案那"},{"start":464.6,"end":483.08,"text":"可不可以趕快提出來就政務官的部分有關行政中立的部分要趕快法治化要加以規範而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點反正法無明文嘛法無明文我就幹我的啊就我剛剛講的在民進黨執政之下"},{"start":484.824,"end":500.2,"text":"他的法律跟他的道德觀是拉到跟法律一樣我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線結果他現在拉到一樣甚至他的作為比法律還不如只要違法沒被抓一切都好那這個當然兩位是"},{"start":501.241,"end":521.152,"text":"兩位是政務官嘛那我當然我講這個你們也不方便回答什麼這我都可以理解我自己也做過政務官我自己也做過所以我很能夠清楚政務官跟常任無我做過常任無官我也做過政務官所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡但是是不是考試院這邊你們要趕快提出專法出來"},{"start":522.284,"end":545.086,"text":"要讓我國的政務官去有所規範因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官我們都知道嘛在我國的體制裡面政務官通常都是常任文官的長官那這些常任文官他們在職場上面他看到他的長官就去那裡站台就去那裡喊大罷免就去那裡喊那些"},{"start":546.287,"end":557.519,"text":"為特定的候選人 特定政黨的候選人在那邊助選然後在那邊講其他人非同政黨的人的壞話那請問一下底下的這些常任文官他們的想法是什麼"},{"start":558.98,"end":578.47,"text":"以人性的角度去出發很多常任務官他會認為說要巴結他的長官他可能求升監或求工作更順利他可能會去巴結他的長官這是全世界各國都有的人性的問題這樣子如果我們放任這些政務官毫無節制的"},{"start":580.022,"end":608.132,"text":"違反行政中立的話 那這不對啊更何況我剛剛提到了中立法的第二條立法理由就講不是不用政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立而是要另以專法來設置因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛但是你們現在卻這個法就完全沒有提出來你們可不可以趕快像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來"},{"start":609.4,"end":616.837,"text":"因為每一屆考試院對這個都有一些各自的想法委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面來做演繹"},{"start":617.951,"end":636.597,"text":"那你們需要多久的時間這個沒有辦法保證因為這一題因為一方面第一個它涉及到職權的爭論這個歷來都沒有解決第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範其實除了剛剛委員講到類似行為規範以外它還有很多很多的面向對 但是民主黨"},{"start":640.359,"end":668.852,"text":"我知道你在講什麼但是你們在101年十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了那這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革當年你就提了出草案但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提這個變成說我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論啦是 民主黨這會期你們有沒有打算要提"},{"start":669.5,"end":684.585,"text":"目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面,我們有其他的優先順序我們現在就是保障法跟考級法、安慰班法,這是我們這個會計的重點可是我覺得這樣子等於是推卸任務這個議題的確在院裡一直都是就像你們剛說的,到底行政院該提還是你們該提,你說不知道嘛"},{"start":692.982,"end":713.875,"text":"其實我跟你講 上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案 行政院卡在那裡卡很久到最後立法院提自己的版本 很多立委提自己的版本然後要表決的時候 行政院才趕快塞法案進來難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎難道一定要走到這一步嗎"},{"start":715.199,"end":734.447,"text":"我跟你講去年很多法案都是這樣嘛都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來不然行政院一卡卡很多年吹哨者保護法也是啊要不是我們拿我們的版本出來一直逼著他他完全不動嘛那我在這邊跟兩位說明一下我真的覺得"},{"start":735.387,"end":757.285,"text":"不管是政務官或是事務官領的都是國家的薪水政務官又是大部分事務官的長官結果階級較低的事務官他有嚴格的行政中立結果位階較高的政務官就完全不受任何的限制這邏輯是錯誤的"},{"start":759.583,"end":784.933,"text":"所以我剛剛有提到了 既然我們的公務員的行政中立法裡面他第二條已經說得很清楚了他並不是政務官不用保持行政中立 而是需要另立專法就我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口所以他不需要行政中立 他上台胡說八道亂扯一通亂講一通 然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去那個現場 去那邊胡說八道"},{"start":786.636,"end":811.372,"text":"當然啦他沒有拿他部會的預算出來來開這個他有沒有用公務資源這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼所以我就跟你說不是啦我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦你講一個隨戶會不會跟著他走這也是一個問題我知道隨戶這個狀況就是說隨戶是不管他在就是他對他的安全有責任的話那他這個所以我提出來這個就是說"},{"start":812.913,"end":827.964,"text":"我提出來這個就是說我剛剛講的政務官跟常任農官事務官之間他們對行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣我100%接受也贊成但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範而讓現在"},{"start":830.509,"end":858.749,"text":"的很多政務官他現在上台胡說八道亂講一通好像都沒事情那這樣子的話他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考去看這個問題所以這個部分我想說要麻煩你們注意一下那另外我想請你們兩個月內能夠提一個資料給我因為我剛本來要提但時間上面來不及提就是我希望說全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資那個水平的差異"},{"start":860.73,"end":885.996,"text":"能夠兩個月內給我一份報告我想了解一下之間的差異如果要回到實際上的薪資這個真的是要人事總書的資料才有我們並沒有這個資料我們的待遇在法治上是行政院主管那不然這樣好了這個部分因為我們本來是希望說考試院這邊提不然我再一個"},{"start":887.858,"end":902.397,"text":"好好沒問題好那這部分我再去跟他們提那這個部分你們有去注意到嗎因為我後來看了一下那個初等考試初等考試如果一年收14個月年收入不到50萬"},{"start":904.518,"end":925.609,"text":"本考試是沒有啦不過我們應該這樣講我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少我跟委員報告這個我現在可以因為我當過人事長我大概有知道這些資料應該這樣講我們的平均的年所得初任的高考三等的年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右啦"},{"start":928.397,"end":954.024,"text":"因為現在最近的資料應該是這樣那個別的領域確實跟民間薪資比較要個別去譬如說檢察官怎麼跟律師比譬如說土木工程跟外面比這個是更細的部分如果用全國平均數那是一個比較的方式我想我這樣跟委員報告就是至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嗎那詳細的是不是沒關係我跟人總他們要但是你們自己也要注意到薪資的這個部分以及"},{"start":954.844,"end":975.665,"text":"甚至資訊人員的那個差距跟外面的差距很大我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間的資訊人員的那個數據差距 資訊差距太大你這樣找不到人啦 完全找不到總署也一直在想 已經做了一些調整的措施但是還是有一些差距 我的要解釋這樣子好 好 好 時間關係 那這樣子就謝謝你們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":898,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時45分）好，麻煩秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請問一下考試院一個很簡單的問題，我們提到公務員中立規定的時候，我們很清楚目前的作為是常任文官跟政務官在行政中立上面有一個區別，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在想請教一下考試院，公務員下班或者是假日，可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會，或是為特定候選人站臺，然後喊「當選」，可以這樣嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我請部長來說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請部長。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，中立法裡面還是要有規範，好像是第九條有規範，不管上、下班時間，公務人員不可以做的行為。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。部長，這個是指常任文官，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對、對！沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天我覺得常任文官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯，但是就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的，確實依照目前的中立法，好像是排除掉政務官的適用，但是我想請問一下，就法律的精神，政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務？"],["施部長能傑：就法律的精神，政務官不可以動用公家資源去從事政黨的活動或者政治性的活動，我想作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理規範。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我的意思是依照法律的精神，政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務？"],["施部長能傑：要看委員界定行政中立的內涵是什麼，因為根據我們的法律，老實說，行政中立是一個比較廣泛的界定，我們沒有真正界定行政中立，行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係啦！這樣好了，我來直接跟你們說，其實公務員的行政中立法並不是政務官沒有行政中立的義務，而是它要求另立專法。我查到公務人員行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實說得很清楚，主要是提到因為政務官屬於政治任命或是民選所產生，他跟常任文官有別，所以這個部分宜另立專法來規範，對不對？我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法，之前有幾個草案提出來，但是目前都沒有立法成功。我想請問一下，就政務官的部分，現在考試院這邊有什麼想法？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，對政務官這個體系，我知道在社會上有不同的討論，不過考試院根據憲法職掌是負責公務人員，畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人，如果有這方面的議題，需要專責立法，這應該會是屬於行政院的權責。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有啊！考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員法草案啊！"],["施部長能傑：沒錯！當初曾經有送過……"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是跟你們無關啊！"],["施部長能傑：不過行政院後來有一些意見，即政務人員應該是由行政院這邊，畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責，而且包括地方政府相關議題，所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的考試院職掌，公務人員這個概念的話，我想這是兩院要繼續討論的部分，如果真的有必要往這邊立法，是由哪一個院來負責。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，當然有這個必要性。我剛才講中立法第二條的立法理由已經說得很清楚了，政務官不是不用服膺行政中立，它是說另以專法來論斷、立法，它是說另外要有專法，而不是他沒有行政中立的義務，結果現在大家的解釋變成行政中立只有事務官、常任文官要，政務官沒有，現在變成這樣子啊！以我所瞭解民進黨的作法，我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線，但現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣，他的作為甚至還低於道德、低於法律，違法只要不被抓到，民進黨都覺得OK。站在這個角度來說……因為我最近看到行政院變成全國最大的競選總部，行政院變成全國最大的大惡霸總部，這樣就不對了嘛！政務官也是領國家的錢，不要講別的，今天你搭車出去、坐公務車出去，你的隨扈出去、你的助理出去，這些也都是國家的經費所養的人，是國家經費所支付的，那你說政務官不是一般的公務員，所以也不歸你們管，然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案，希望就政務官的部分規範，結果反而又不關你們的事了嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該說是不是由考試院來提出政務人員法這件事情，一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論。回到行政中立的部分，政務官也不是如委員所說，並不是完全沒有行政中立的相關規範。剛剛部長也有講，動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以，這個不分事務官、政務官，其實都不可以做這件事。但是就參與某些政治活動而言，政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣，歷來中央、地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的界線。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分我了解，我也可以接受，就是政務官跟常任文官，他們在行政中立上面的程度有所區別，這個都可以接受，也不會很無理地要求兩個絕對要拉到一樣。但是我一直在講，最近這一段時間發生的事情，譬如說，行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全臺灣到處搞了，在那邊喊大罷免，還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣，然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉政策宣傳，這個東西叫我怎麼相信他是行政中立的概念？之前草屯鎮長補選，在那個補選的會場，政次陳時中還有現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎？這兩個人是政務官沒有錯，但是他卻在現場助選，然後在那邊講一些有的沒的，甚至在講罷免的事情。回到我剛剛說的，這些人去那邊，他也是掛他的官銜去，他並不是用他個人的名義去；再來，他去的時候，就我剛剛講的，他要不要使用他的公務車？他要不要使用他的隨扈？有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈，這些不就是公共的費用嗎？回到我剛剛講的，我不是說政務官對於行政中立的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣，但是考試院是不是能夠去思考一個點，既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案，那可不可以趕快提出來，就政務官行政中立的部分趕快法制化？要加以規範，而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點，反正法無明文嘛，法無明文我就幹我的啊！就我剛剛講的，在民進黨執政之下，他的道德觀拉到跟法律一樣，我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線，結果他現在拉到一樣，甚至他的作為比法律還不如，只要違法沒被抓，一切都好。","當然兩位是政務官嘛！當然我講這個，你們也不方便回答什麼，這我都可以理解，我自己也做過政務官，所以我很清楚政務官跟常任……我做過常任文官，我也做過政務官，所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡。考試院是不是要趕快提出專法出來，讓我國的政務官有所規範？因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官，我們都知道嘛！在我國的體系裡面，政務官通常都是常任文官的長官，這些常任文官在職場上面，看到他的長官去那裡站台、去那裡喊大罷免、去那裡為特定的候選人、特定政黨的候選人助選，然後在那邊講其他人、非同政黨的人的壞話，請問一下，底下的這些常任文官，他們的想法是什麼？以人性的角度去出發，很多常任文官，他會認為要巴結他的長官嘛！他可能求升遷或求工作更順利，他可能會去巴結他的長官，這是全世界各國都有的人性問題嘛！如果我們放任這些政務官這樣子毫無節制地違反行政中立的話，這不對啊！更何況我剛剛提到中立法第二條的立法理由就講，政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立，而是要另以專法來設置，因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛！但是你們現在這個法就完全沒有提出來，你們可不可以像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為每一屆考試院大概對這個都有一些各自的想法，委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面研議。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們需要多久的時間？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個沒有辦法保證，因為第一個、它涉及到職權的爭論，這個歷來都沒有解決；第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範，其實除了剛剛委員講到的類似行為規範以外，它還有很多很多的面向，所以比較複雜。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長，我知道你在講什麼，但是你們在101年──十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來，我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有，而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了，這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革，當年你就提得出草案，但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提。我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論，秘書長，這個會期你們有沒有打算要提？"],["劉秘書長建忻：目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面，我們有其他的優先順序，現在就是保障法跟考績法、安衛辦法，這是我們這個會期的重點。"],["吳委員宗憲：可是我覺得這樣子等於是推責任。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員這個意見我會帶回去研議，這個議題的確在院裡面一直都是……"],["吳委員宗憲：就像你們剛剛說的，到底行政院該提還是你們該提，你說不知道嘛！其實我跟你講，上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案，行政院卡在那裡卡很久，到最後立法院提自己的版本，很多立委提自己的版本，然後要表決的時候行政院才趕快塞法案進來，難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎？難道一定要走到這一步嗎？我跟你講，去年很多法案都是這樣，都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來，不然行政院一卡卡很多年，吹哨者保護法也是，要不是我們拿我們的版本出來，一直逼著它，它完全不動嘛！我跟兩位說明一下，我真的覺得不管是政務官或是事務官，領的都是國家的薪水，政務官又是大部分事務官的長官，結果階級較低的事務官，他有嚴格的行政中立，位階較高的政務官卻完全不受任何的限制，這邏輯是錯誤的。我剛剛有提到了，公務員行政中立法第二條已經說得很清楚了，並不是政務官不用保持行政中立，而是需要另立專法，結果我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口，所以他不需要行政中立，他上台胡說八道、亂扯一通、亂講一通，然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去現場胡說八道，當然他沒有拿他部會的預算出來開這個……"],["劉秘書長建忻：他有沒有用公務資源，這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，所以我就跟你說，不是啦！我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦，你講一個，隨扈會不會跟著他走，這也是一個問題。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我知道隨扈這個狀況，隨扈是不管他在……就是他對他的安全有責任的話，這個其實都算是公務。"],["吳委員宗憲：我提出這個，就是我剛剛講的政務官跟常任文官、事務官之間，他們對於行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣，我100%接受也贊成，但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範，而讓現在的很多政務官上台胡說八道、亂講一通好像都沒事情。這樣子的話，他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考、去看這個問題？所以這個部分，我想要麻煩你們注意一下。","另外我想請你們兩個月內提一個資料給我，我剛剛本來要提，但時間上面來不及提，我希望全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資水平的差異，能夠兩個月內給我一份報告，我想了解一下之間的差異。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，如果要回到實際上的薪資，這個真的是要人事總處的資料才有，我們並沒有這個資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們沒有這個資料？"],["施部長能傑：對，我們的待遇在法制上是行政院主管。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，不然這樣好了，這個部分我們本來是希望考試院這邊提，不然我再去跟……好，沒問題，這個部分我再去跟他們提，那這個部分你們有注意到嗎？因為我後來看了一下初等考試，初等考試如果年薪14個月，年收入不到50萬，其實還滿低的。"],["施部長能傑：初等考試是沒有啦，不過應該這樣講，我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少。我跟委員報告，因為我當過人事長，我大概知道這些資料，應該這樣講，我們的平均年所得，初任的高考三等年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右，最近的資料應該是這樣，個別的領域跟民間薪資比較就個別去比，比方說檢察官怎麼跟律師比，比方說土木工程怎麼跟外面比，這個是更細的部分，如果用全國的平均數，那是一個比較的方式，我想我就這樣跟委員報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嘛，沒關係，詳細的數字我跟人總他們要。"],["施部長能傑：資料人事總處才有。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是你們自己也要注意到薪資這個部分。"],["施部長能傑：有、有。"],["吳委員宗憲：甚至資訊人員的差距，跟外面的差距很大。"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間資訊人員的薪資差距太大，你這樣找不到人啦，完全找不到！"],["施部長能傑：所以總處也一直在想，已經做了一些調整的措施，但還是有一些差距，我了解的是這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好、好，因為時間的關係，那就謝謝你們。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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這個部分陳文剛我們市長剛剛有報告就是說這裡面有現在有我們那個兒少權利權利法裡面有加重刑責的規定另外在刑法裡面也有那這個部分是不是請是委員針對那兩岸的檢討我們都有一個重大的一個檢討機制那目前看起來說的確在橫向在地方"},{"start":129.337,"end":154.808,"text":"橫向聯繫上面還有一些環節可以再加強那我想這個部分已經目前透過不管監察院也好這個行政機關也好我們都加緊在這個部分做一些防範那另外對這個特別是性侵害的議題那將來在修正上面可能不能單純就單一事件甚至還有一些潛在被害人這個部分我想法務部他們也做了一些調整以上"},{"start":156.329,"end":183.882,"text":"好,是您自己提到了嘛,剛才講列統,你現在講到信心的部分的那你現在講的最後的結論是華為部現在在做相關調整那衛務部、那教育單位有做什麼樣的積極的因應的一些作為,有嗎?來,是不是請教育部,來來,請教育部跟華為部就上來好不好因為他剛剛特別提到嘛,信心的部分我們先提到列統致死,那現在提到信心,那我就來請教你們信心的事情"},{"start":185.001,"end":188.623,"text":"現在出現了一個新的名字叫劣童者各位聽過吧 劣童者他們在潛伏學童的周遭用自己師長、長輩的權勢去傷害幼童可能會做性侵 也可能會做暴力甚至以劣童相關的一個行為所以應該各位都還耳熟能詳"},{"start":209.755,"end":229.19,"text":"台北市幼兒園毛案 毛俊生案 都清楚嗎目前到底是累積幾名受害者我們現在就來檢視了啦 好不好你們所有相關的因應作為我們現在目前 我們的幾乎是39名39名 39名是自己掌握還是監察院的新聞稿"},{"start":232.564,"end":248.039,"text":"是在整個通報案件裡面掌握的通報案件掌握的從2022年最初最初是查獲6名血統累積2022年兩年過後現在累積到39名這是具體有查出來的會不會再有遺漏的"},{"start":249.332,"end":266.282,"text":"會不會還有潛在受到學童的數量會再爆出來我想潛在可能包括有聽聞或目睹這些都是那我想目前我知道北市政府他們有成立一個兒童的輔導專案叫幼童的輔導專案"},{"start":269.404,"end":288.399,"text":"針對這種潛在的被害人還是有機制可以去輔導好 那我們等一下就來討論輔導的機制在哪裡好不好判決書上有清楚記載證明狼屍仗著自己是負責任的孩子然後又有管理監視器的權限"},{"start":290.118,"end":315.844,"text":"華為部針對這樣有前科還是說有這樣跡象的情況之下怎麼去讓持有監視器權限的人有相關的規範嗎有嗎這個事件是他因為有監視器的權限才無地放矢到極致那這事情發生之後華為部有針對這部分跟衛護部跟教育部來做相關的研擬這部分要怎麼解決要怎麼處理要怎麼因應"},{"start":317.044,"end":342.733,"text":"報告委員那有關於監視器的部分是屬於教育部的權責那我們法務部的部分呢其實就是在當下我們是就是及早啟動相關的偵查機制然後盡早去做一個保全證據的動作我知道因為我的時間有限啦抱歉啦齁我說說這一個這一個這一個加害人他本身就是有掌握監視器的權限那我們知道這個案子是這樣那我們相關的單位有針對這個事件"},{"start":345.356,"end":372.295,"text":"的這個點有去做相關的未來的因應作為嗎有嗎因為他有掌握監視器的權限所以他才可以無敵放矢到極致嘛有嗎那報告委員因為在幼兒園裡面他並沒有強制一定得要設監視器但是如果他有設監視器的話那國教署是有一個注意事項引導縣市政府應該怎麼做後續的處理同時也要求縣市政府在我們的"},{"start":372.762,"end":390.324,"text":"注意事項後面再訂定相關的規範所以目前是有相關的引導機制是 相關的引導機制但是因為我們沒有強制他一定要架設這個監視系統所以我們也沒有辦法去規範這個有使用監視系統權限的人他必須要有什麼樣的條件"},{"start":391.519,"end":420.219,"text":"所以就沒有嘛這個事件就是這樣發生嘛所以我們針對這個事件我們沒有特別再去做相關的一些討論跟因應嘛簡單講就這樣嘛 有就有 沒有就沒有好不好我的時間有限齁所以我要表達說郵照法沒有強制要求一定要但是如果有設一定要有相關的處理機制包含他影像的保存怎麼去做調閱那教育部國教署是有一個注意事項給縣市政府來引導他們包含學校跟幼兒園"},{"start":421.608,"end":432.638,"text":"來遵循以上如果有事他就是要遵從相關的機制去做這樣的保存嘛對不對那我談的是保存的這個人就是加害者你們怎麼規範我的問題就很這麼簡單你應該是回答我這個點才對嘛"},{"start":437.383,"end":457.393,"text":"沒有 就是沒有嘛這個事件就是他嘛那這個事件你們就是沒有處理嘛簡單講就這樣 這第一件事情請次長聽看看啦所以這一個藍絲財政院犯案毫不掩飾嘛他可以利用小朋友午休時間還是等待家長接送時間就可以馬上上下其手速度之快"},{"start":460.692,"end":488.159,"text":"數字是變而且小朋友午休的時間是單獨的小朋友一張床嗎還是一個通鋪而且他是在通鋪裡面做對小朋友信心的事情你們有調查嗎在他做這個事情的過程裡面旁邊的小朋友有看到這些小朋友要怎麼處理他雖然沒有被直接侵害但是他有看到你們有掌握有如何做處理簡單回答我就好 簡單時間的關係好不好"},{"start":490.922,"end":516.636,"text":"有嗎就有關在幼兒園裡面他的睡鋪究竟是通鋪或床鋪目前在設施設備標準裡面他沒有建議一定得要做什麼處理但是要有相關的這個機制那另外就是說對幼兒部分來講我們是加強對孩子自身保護的部分一定會有那園內如果有任何人看到有這樣的事項來講目前的通報是要在24小時裡面一定要通報他如果沒有通報在幼照法裡面的罰則是"},{"start":517.917,"end":541.929,"text":"你怎麼一直講我們都沒有辦法對上話就很奇怪了偵查院調查報告你們剛才跟我講的受害的小朋友39位那我現在跟你講的已經有間接的小朋友你們有掌握嗎?有嗎?那我只把那個死警講給你聽他或許是在一個通風裡面做這樣的一個行為那也有小朋友看到你們有掌握嗎?你就簡單回答這樣就好了嘛有嗎?如果在這邊再延伸出來會有多少人?"},{"start":547.862,"end":562.386,"text":"會有多少人你們有實際坐下來好好去討論我簡單講一個例子就好嘛一個班級可能一個小朋友他因為家庭的因素他因為意外他因為車禍他因為因為家長殺傷自殺這個小朋友這一班可能全班都要接受輔導了現在是一個加害人在做性侵的行為的時候另外很多小朋友又看到了"},{"start":577.553,"end":604.802,"text":"這個部分你們有處理嗎你們有掌握嗎先講掌握再講應應再講處理啦有嗎報告委員所有的氣象都是教育局在做調查如果調查之後這個班級有目睹相關的我們目前會補助相關的輔導經費可以來協助這個幼兒園的運作怎麼叫做你們有相關的輔導經費現在在講什麼我在問你前置作業你再跟我講你有經費所以你們背三的還不夠就對了啦"},{"start":607.864,"end":612.626,"text":"你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?"},{"start":624.741,"end":648.744,"text":"我只是說 他有直接影響的 直接侵害的現在跟你講到間接的 你們怎麼做舞蹈然後掌握迷路器這一個人 你們怎麼去做相關的一些營業再規範我現在聽起來這兩個面向幾乎都沒有啊你再跟我講所有相關的預算去做什麼你們就沒有去掌握你有預算邊站的地方 你也是一樣沒有辦法去申請啊沒有辦法去執行啊"},{"start":650.962,"end":661.845,"text":"你看喔 針對目睹的狀況你們有掌握嗎我就focus在這地方目睹的狀況的幼兒你們有掌握嗎沒有就講沒有嘛我剛跟委員報告因為所有細項是教育局在做查查但如果說他們真的有目睹的孩子我們在輔導的機制裡面是可以來做處理的"},{"start":680.097,"end":703.422,"text":"你有找過他們有沒有教育局跟你回報還是你主動去跟教育局了解說你們有針對這一塊去做處理嗎?有嗎?沒有就沒有嘛高院判決書上又寫的這是另外一個層次問題,你再聽一下判決書上又寫得很清楚其中受害的B童是因為以受害的A童跟自己的媽媽透露"},{"start":704.457,"end":728.612,"text":"有看到狼屍在捕摸米桶也因此才發現米桶也受害這是慢慢延伸出來的這些都是直接受害的喔那我剛剛講的是間接受害的我用了一個班級可能有其中一個小朋友他因為車禍死亡他因為家庭巨變他因為公共意外死亡全班都必須接受輔導喔對不對那這個間接的有目睹的你們怎麼處理"},{"start":733.939,"end":750.032,"text":"你們有掌握嗎人數是多少你簡單跟我回應一下就好嘛有處理嗎有掌握嗎跟委員報告分兩個層次一個是具體個案以台北市信義區那個案件因為案發之後他很快教育局就讓這個"},{"start":751.842,"end":764.979,"text":"這個機構停招然後解散那所以在這個案件上面的確那個孩子我們說的哀傷輔導這一部分的確在那個情境下面是沒有辦法進行但北市也發現這個問題因此他在幼兒部分他做"},{"start":768.744,"end":793.864,"text":"做了專業輔導的一個專案也就是說這些孩子可能到移到其他學校去上課如果有需要他還是可以申請這個部分是北市確實有掌握這個部分那我覺得委員監的那針對整個制度部分我們可以在判決書中其實你們如果有細看你們確實有做下來把相關的資料彙整完之後這個寫得清楚"},{"start":795.037,"end":809.431,"text":"既有性侵的同時 也有暴力的對待那我們要不要詢問一下兩個層次來談性侵的有幾位被暴力對待的有幾位間接看到性侵的有幾位被暴 間接看到暴力的對象有幾位你們有盤整出來嗎有嗎"},{"start":813.055,"end":841.052,"text":"你現在是面對多大的群體受害的情況之下直接跟間接的有相關的站在衛生主管機關、教育主管機關、保護主管機關去做好好的探討、調查、探討然後研究然後來做相關的一些因應嗎?有嗎?監察院在2月5號要求台北市政府保護部督促所屬的這些單位重啟行政調查及司法偵查"},{"start":842.898,"end":865.704,"text":"怎麼會搞到這樣所以我在這邊要求我要請召委我們一起要求衛福部、教育部、保護部除了繼續調查有沒有其他受害的血統必須針對110年10月一直到112年的7月這個幼兒的小朋友要存立的專案輔導因為不僅是受害者其他與狼屍接觸到的小朋友會不會因為其言行受到影響都要追蹤與關懷有嗎"},{"start":868.174,"end":894.892,"text":"如果沒有一個月一個月給我們完整的你們怎麼樣的應應的作為趕快去補強然後給委會做一個報告可以嗎可以嗎可以啦齁不只如此不是只有台北市這一案還有新北市還有這個台中某國小棒教練姓七學童那新北市的這個部分"},{"start":896.024,"end":922.361,"text":"在昨天的報紙就出來嘛對不對利用上為期時間侵犯學童目前發現有12名學童受害整個時間誇長達三年這個是誇兩年另外新北市誇三年喔會不會跟台北市一樣陸續爆發更多而且你知道報道中家長特別管理當主動學院校方伺服可以提供諮商資源時校方輔導是"},{"start":924.382,"end":946.01,"text":"請回答剛發生再觀察看看是不是事實對不對好不只如此不只如此事發一個月後家長意外得知校方輔導室借檔繁殖家長不願學校提供協助然後造成孩子在古董諮商支援時錯過黃金治療時間確診創傷壓力症候群這誰要負責這件事情誰要負責"},{"start":957.252,"end":976.164,"text":"然後新北市的加防中心回應是加防中心強調經過資源整合以安排孩子進行諮商輔導孩子要接受諮商輔導還要等到你們大人們去做資源整合之後才有辦法做這些事情一個凱凱案已經造成多大的"},{"start":977.721,"end":991.567,"text":"傷害然後讓整個公部門啊你們要疲於奔命的去做相關的回應跟修正啊對不對現在一下子台北市39位這是直接喔還有間接的喔現在又有新北市還有台中台灣如果是持續這樣的環境你的少子化再怎樣去加碼不要過去的456變成567你就變成789啦"},{"start":1008.277,"end":1019.267,"text":"小朋友生出來的是出生率的你還是一樣沒辦法往上啦小朋友出生之後他可能在幼兒園就必須要夭折了不可能只有看出生率不看成長率吧"},{"start":1025.697,"end":1038.796,"text":"所以我請次長好不好我剛剛提到這些問題是不是通通一個月相關單位嘛對不對 你會著急嘛大家如何來做因應的作為嘛然後實際上掌握的人數你們主動來跟我們報告嘛可以嗎 好不好"},{"start":1041.961,"end":1048.748,"text":"謝謝 委員真的非常感謝您的那個基礎我知道你剛才說的不是直接又間接啦那些又潛在 那些相關的輔導措施我們趕快來組成一個專案 還有包括相關的地方政府我們都拿出來 一個月以來"},{"start":1060.519,"end":1066.304,"text":"因為這個營運很大啦,小孩子雖然沒有穿穿到,小孩子沒有穿穿到,但是他看到他尊重老師,對這個孩子做這個行為,對這個孩子來營運,你看多厲害。所以很恐怖的事情啦,好不好?市長,謝謝趙偉,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時48分）謝謝主席，主席辛苦，主席今天排這個案非常棒，也代表少子化的事情，我們都還有很多努力改善的空間，所以請呂次，好不好？","呂次剛剛一句話讓人很感動，每一個孩子都是我們的心肝寶貝。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：每一個既然都是我們心肝寶貝，我們就面對這樣的少子化環境，然後比較全世界各國優劣的政策，研究套在我們臺灣是否可行，其他各國如果有相關的政策是執行不當、不好，那我們當然就不能引用錯的，還是重蹈覆轍地讓這樣的政策在臺灣實施，應該是這麼做才對嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好，我要講少子化的過程裡面，我們先來討論剛剛就是最後黃委員在詢問的這種虐童事件是否只有加重其刑責的手段而已？可能還是要全面向來做討論，應該最好就是要有事先的預防，一旦發生之後，就應該有相對應的措施來讓傷害降到最低。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：新北市跟臺北市當時為了承接這個小朋友，互踢皮球，大家應該都記憶猶新，怎麼會發生這樣的事情？對於這件事情，公部門不管是衛生最高的主管機關，還是教育的主管機關，還是法務的主管機關，到底三個單位應該做如何的相關因應措施，不讓這樣的憾事持續再發生，有過共同檢討之後得出相對應的結論，可以讓我們簡單扼要地了解一下嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個部分誠如剛剛我們司長報告的，在兒少權益法裡面有加重刑責的規定；另外，在刑法裡面也有。這個部分是不是請司長說明？"],["張司長秀鴛：是。委員，針對那兩案的檢討，我們都有重大的檢討機制，目前看起來，的確在地方的橫向聯繫上面還有一些環節可以再加強，我想這個部分目前已經透過不管是監察院也好、行政機關也好，我們都加緊在這個部分來做防範。另外，特別是對於性侵害的議題，將來在蒐證上可能不能單純就單一事件，甚至還有些潛在被害人的部分，我想法務部也做了一些調整。以上。"],["劉委員建國：好，您自己提到了嘛，剛才是講虐童，你現在講到性侵的部分了，你講的最後的結論是法務部現在也在做相關調整，那衛福部及教育單位有做什麼樣積極的因應作為，有嗎？"],["呂次長建德：是不是請教育部？"],["劉委員建國：請教育部跟法務部上來，好不好？因為他剛才特別提到性侵的部分，我們剛剛先提到虐童致死，現在提到性侵，我就來請教你們性侵的事情。現在出現了一個新名詞叫獵童者，各位聽過嗎？他們潛伏在學童的周遭，用自己師長、長輩的權勢去傷害幼童，可能會做性侵行為，也可能會做暴力行為，甚至於虐童的相關行為。各位應該都耳熟能詳臺北市幼兒園毛畯珅案，對不對？清楚嘛？目前到底是累積幾名受害者？我們現在就來檢視了啦，好不好？你們說有相關的因應作為嘛。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前我們的紀錄是39名。"],["劉委員建國：39名是自己掌握還是監察院的新聞稿？"],["張司長秀鴛：是在整個通報案件裡面掌握的。"],["劉委員建國：好，從2022年最初是查獲6名學童，兩年過後，現在累計到39名，這是具體有查出來的，會不會再有遺漏的？會不會還有潛在受害的學童數量再爆出來？"],["張司長秀鴛：我想潛在可能包括有聽聞或目睹這些都是，目前我知道北市政府有成立一個幼童的輔導專案，針對這種潛在被害人還是有機制可以去輔導。"],["劉委員建國：好，那我們等一下就來討論輔導的機制在哪裡，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：判決書上有清楚記載這名狼師仗著自己是負責人的孩子，又有管理監視器的權限，法務部針對這樣有前科或有這樣跡象的情況之下，對於持有監視器權限的人有相關的規範？有嗎？這個事件是因為他有監視器的權限才無的放矢到極致，這件事情發生之後，法務部是否有針對這個部分跟衛福部及教育部來做相關的研擬，這個部分要怎麼解決、要怎麼處理、要怎麼因應？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：報告委員，有關於監視器的部分是屬於教育部的權責，我們法務部的部分其實就是在當下我們就是及早啟動相關的偵查機制，儘早去做一個保全證據的動作。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，因為我的時間有限，抱歉。我是說這一個加害人本身就是有掌握監視器的權限，我們知道這個案子是這樣，相關的單位有針對這個事件的這個點去研擬未來相關的因應作為嗎？因為他有掌握監視器的權限，所以他才可以無的放矢到極致嘛。"],["許副署長麗娟：報告委員，因為在幼兒園裡面並沒有強制一定要設監視器，但如果它有設監視器的話，國教署是有一個注意事項引導縣市政府應該怎麼做後續的處理，同時也要求縣市政府在我們的注意事項後面再訂定相關的規範，所以我們目前是有相關的引導機制。"],["劉委員建國：是，有相關的引導機制，但因為我們沒有強制它一定要架設監視系統，所以我們也沒有辦法去規範有使用監視系統權限的人必須要有什麼樣的條件，所以就沒有嘛。"],["許副署長麗娟：因為沒有……"],["劉委員建國：這個事件就是這樣發生的嘛，所以針對這個事件，你們有沒有特別再去做相關的一些討論跟因應？簡單講就是這樣嘛，有就有，沒有就沒有，好不好？我的時間有限。所以我要表達的就是說……"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員報告，因為幼教法沒有強制要求一定要設，但是如果有設就一定要有相關的處理機制，包含影像的保存、怎麼去做調閱，教育部國教署是有一個注意事項給縣市政府來引導他們，包含學校跟幼兒園來遵循。"],["劉委員建國：如果有設，他就是要遵從相關的機制去做這樣的保存嘛，對不對？但我談的是保存的這個人就是加害者，你們怎麼規範？我的問題就這麼簡單，你應該是回答我這個點才對，沒有，就是沒有嘛，這個事件就是他嘛，這個事件你們就是沒有處理嘛！簡單講就是這樣，這是第一件事情，請次長聽看看。所以這一個狼師才在幼兒園犯案，毫不掩飾，他可以利用小朋友午休時間或是等待家長接送時間，就可以馬上上下其手，速度之快；另外，小朋友的午休時間是一個小朋友一張床嗎，還是一個通鋪？而且他是在通鋪裡面做對小朋友性侵的事情，你們有調查嗎？在他做這個事情的過程裡面，旁邊的小朋友有看到，這些小朋友要怎麼處理？他雖然沒有被直接侵害，但是他有看到，你們有掌握要如何做處理嗎？簡單回答我就好，時間的關係。"],["許副署長麗娟：有關在幼兒園裡面的睡鋪究竟是通鋪或床鋪，目前在設施設備標準裡面並沒有建議一定得要做什麼處理，但是要有相關的機制。另外，對於幼兒的部分，我們是加強對孩子自身保護的部分，這部分一定會有，園內如果有任何人看到這樣的事項，目前的通報是要在24小時內一定要通報，如果沒有通報，在幼教法裡面的罰則是還滿嚴的。以上。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！不是、不是，你講的跟我問的一直都沒有辦法對上話，就很奇怪啦！監察院調查報告，你們剛才跟我講的受害的小朋友是39位，那我現在跟你講的是已經有間接的小朋友，你們有掌握嗎？我只是把實際的可能性講給你聽，他或許是one by one，他或許是在一個通鋪裡面做這樣的行為，也有小朋友看到，你們有掌握嗎？你就簡單回答，這樣就好了，有嗎？如果在這邊再延伸出來會有多少人？你們有沒有實際好好去討論？我簡單講一個例子就好，一個班級可能一個小朋友因為家庭的因素、因為意外、因為車禍、因為家長的燒炭自殺，這個小朋友的這一班可能全班都要接受輔導了。現在是一個加害人在做性侵行為的時候，另外有很多小朋友看到了，這個部分你們有處理嗎，你們有掌握嗎？先講掌握，再講因應，再講處理，有嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：報告委員，所有的細項都是教育局在做調查，如果調查之後，這個班級有目睹相關的，目前……"],["劉委員建國：你們是督導單位耶。"],["許副署長麗娟：我們有相關的輔導經費可以來協助這個幼兒園的運作。"],["劉委員建國：什麼叫做你們有相關的輔導經費？現在在講什麼，我在問你前置作業，你在跟我講你有經費，所以你們被刪的還不夠就對了？"],["許副署長麗娟：委員剛剛提的是……"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢？召委，你可能要再給我一點時間，我覺得這種事件再這樣下去，少子化的情況會越加劇嚴重，政府再編更多的預算，如果今天小朋友生出來的環境是如此……","前面是提到有直接影響的、直接侵害的，那我現在是跟你講到間接的部分你們怎麼做輔導，然後掌握監視器的這個人，你們怎麼去做相關的因應在規範裡面，我現在聽起來這兩個面向幾乎都沒有啊，你現在跟我講說有相關的預算去做什麼，你們就沒有去掌握，你有預算編列也是一樣沒有辦法去申請啊，沒有辦法去執行啊！你看喔……"],["許副署長麗娟：委員，我可以再補充一下嗎？"],["劉委員建國：你看喔，我這邊特別再強調一下，針對目睹的狀況，你們有掌握嗎？我就focus在這個地方，目睹狀況的幼兒，你們有掌握嗎？沒有就講沒有嘛！"],["許副署長麗娟：我剛剛跟委員報告，因為所有細項是教育局在做查察，但如果真的有目睹的孩子，我們在輔導的機制裡面是可以來做處理的。"],["劉委員建國：你有沒有掌握？是教育局跟你回報，還是你主動去跟教育局了解他們有沒有針對這一塊去做處理？有嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：整起案件……"],["劉委員建國：你沒有就沒有嘛！高院判決書上寫的，次長，這是另外一個層次問題，你要聽一下，判決書上寫得很清楚，其中受害的B童是因為已受害的A童跟自己的媽媽透露有看到狼師在撫摸B童，也因此才發現B童也受害。這是慢慢這樣延伸出來的，這些都是直接受害的喔！那我剛剛講的是間接受害的，我舉例說假如一個班級其中有一個小朋友因為車禍死亡或家庭巨變或是因為公共意外死亡，全班都必須接受輔導，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：那這個間接的、有目睹的，你們怎麼處理？你們有掌握嗎？人數是多少？你簡單跟我回應一下就好，有處理嗎？有掌握嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：跟委員報告，分兩個層次，一個是具體個案，以臺北市信義區那個案件，因為案發之後，教育局很快就讓這個機構停招，然後解散，所以在這個案件上面，有關哀傷輔導這一部分，的確在那個情境下是沒有辦法進行，但北市也發現這個問題，因此它在幼兒部分做了一個專業輔導的專案，也就是說這些孩子可能移到其他學校去上課，如果有需要他還是可以申請，北市確實有掌握這個部分。那我覺得委員今天的……"],["劉委員建國：司長，你還是沒有回答我的問題。"],["張司長秀鴛：對，針對整個制度部分，我們可以在……"],["劉委員建國：判決書中，你們如果有細看、有確實坐下來把相關的資料彙整，這邊寫得很清楚「既有性侵的同時，也有暴力的對待」。那我們要不要區分一下兩個層次來談，性侵的有幾位？被暴力對待的有幾位？間接看到性侵的有幾位？間接看到暴力的對象有幾位？你們有盤整出來嗎？有嗎？你現在是面對多大群體受害的情況之下，直接跟間接有相關的，站在衛生主管機關、教育主管機關、法務主管機關去好好地調查、探討、研究，並且來做相關的一些因應嗎？有嗎？","監察院在2月5號要求臺北市政府、法務部督促所屬單位重啟行政調查及司法偵查。怎麼會搞到這樣？所以我在這邊要求，我也請召委，我們一起要求衛福部、教育部、法務部，除了繼續調查有沒有其他受害的學童，必須針對110年10月一直到112年7月這個幼兒園的小朋友，要成立專案輔導，因為不僅是受害者，其他與狼師接觸到的小朋友會不會因為其言行受到影響，都要追蹤與關懷，有嗎？如果沒有，一個月給我們完整的因應作為，趕快去補強，然後給委員會做一個報告，可以嗎？"],["呂次長建德：好，可以。"],["劉委員建國：可以啦！不只如此，不是只有臺北市這案，還有新北市，還有臺中某國小少棒教練性侵學童。新北市的部分昨天報紙就出來，利用上圍棋課的時間侵犯學童，目前發現有12名學童受害，整個時間長達三年。這個是跨兩年，另外新北市是跨三年，會不會跟臺北市一樣陸續爆發更多？"],["呂次長建德：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：而且你要知道，報導中家長都特別反映，當主動詢問校方是否可以提供諮商資源時，校方輔導室僅回答「剛發生，再觀察看看」，是不是事實？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，不只如此，事發一個月後家長意外得知，校方輔導室竟然反指「家長不願學校提供協助」，造成孩子在苦等諮商資源時，錯過黃金治療時間而確診創傷壓力症候群。這件事情誰要負責？然後新北市的家防中心回應是，家防中心強調經過資源整合後已安排孩子進行諮商輔導。孩子要接受諮商輔導，還要等到你們大人們去做資源整合之後，才有辦法做這件事情。一個剴剴案已經造成多大的傷害，讓整個公部門，你們要疲於奔命地去做相關的回應跟修正。現在一下子臺北市有39位，這是直接的喔！還有間接的，現在新北市又發生，還有臺中，臺灣如果是持續這樣的環境，少子化再怎樣去加碼，不要過去的456變成567，你就變成789，小朋友的出生率還是一樣沒辦法往上啦！小朋友出生之後，他可能在幼兒園就夭折了，不可能只有看出生率不看成長率吧！所以我請次長，我剛剛提到這些問題，是不是通通一個月？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：相關單位你要召集嘛！"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：大家如何來做因應的作為，然後實際上掌握的人數，你們主動來跟我們報告，可以嗎？好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：委員，真的非常感謝您的指導，我知道你剛才說的不是只有直接，還有間接、潛在的，以及相關的輔導措施，我們趕快來組成一個專案小組，還有包括相關的地方政府，我們都找來，一個月以內。"],["劉委員建國：是，因為這個影響很大啦！"],["呂次長建德：真的。"],["劉委員建國：小孩雖然沒有被侵犯到，小孩雖然沒有被怎麼樣，但是他看他尊重的老師……"],["呂次長建德：就是有目睹到。"],["劉委員建國：對小孩做這種行為，這對小孩未來的影響，你看會有多大？"],["呂次長建德：對，當然。"],["劉委員建國：這很恐怖的事情，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝次長、謝謝召委。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請劉召委排個專案。"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["主席：我剛剛的感覺是這樣，劉建國委員是說目睹了這個行為的小孩，你們到底有沒有掌握、有沒有輔導，那你們的回答是把那個幼兒園關掉，好像一個是AM，一個是FM，不同頻率啦！這樣是不對的。","邱鎮軍委員說他有很重要的事，所以他質詢完我們再休息。你說5分鐘就好了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9002c10a25a8c58eb041a80f058510e45acb9e3eaef4bc7903379d122fef1d5156d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:50:36 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原總談判代表是"},{"start":18.683,"end":48.426,"text":"我想今天的主題是探討那個因應就是川普對等的關稅那把我們國家被列入了骯髒15國的這個名單的策略那這個我聽這個之前就是我們幾個那個同事在講其實好像是回應那個經濟部那個長次的回應就是說還不見得就是我們是在這15席的一個骯髒國代表名單裡面到底是有還是沒有"},{"start":51.009,"end":67.166,"text":"從美國官員的說法他只有講到15國但是他沒有提出具體國家的判斷那你認為有還是沒有我覺得我們可以先不去做研判但是我們可以去了解美國為什麼會提到要有這15國的概念也就是說貿易順差比較大"},{"start":67.628,"end":77.86,"text":"以及關稅他認為有不公平的情況你是我們的談判代表嘛在我們對美國的順差這個739億這麼多的一個這個貿易的一個順差裡頭你認為我們會是這個15個骯髒果裡面的一個名單中間嗎"},{"start":88.154,"end":95.219,"text":"我們如果純粹你不要閃避啊如果你連這個都在閃避的話那怎麼談得下去呢今天那個賴昭偉這一個議題就假議題啦"},{"start":100.409,"end":125.516,"text":"謝謝委員從貿易順差的這個絕對數字我們當然是排名是在前面的這些國家所以我們也做好了這些準備也做好了很多的一個模擬就是不管任何的一個政策上需要調整的還是就是說不管是任何的一個關稅的一個調整是不是就是說大家其實已經都不斷的就是在做這樣的一個準備了"},{"start":126.488,"end":153.337,"text":"對我們經貿辦跟這個各部會實際上都在這個台美經貿工作小組裡面進行密集的討論那所以各種的情境我們都已經有做過模擬然後以及可能會有哪一些因應的方案是嗎因為我們也知道就是說從川普就是當選了以後其實我們整個財政委員會就是在上個會期裡頭我們就都一直在關注就是也一直就是緩和的在跟行政院在跟財政部"},{"start":153.917,"end":178.254,"text":"甚至金管會就是不斷的在討論因為這個實在是事關重大那短期它造成那個全球的股市的一個波動那間接的也影響到我們的國家在未來的五年十年甚至二十年的一個發展的一個方向那川普引發世界這麼大的一個變局那我們台灣政府當然是嚴正以待啊因為我們就是賺了人家那麼多的錢啊"},{"start":179.275,"end":206.469,"text":"那不可能就是說這個川普的態度川普他就是一個生意人啊他或許他認為他認為我先把這個美國的整個經濟狀況我要你們來投資啊那剛才我聽了很多就是官員的一個回覆大家就是說尤其是萊斯堡委員他每一次他只要質詢我都很認真的在聽他把大家帶向的就是說你要怎麼補這個七八三十九億啊"},{"start":206.95,"end":209.788,"text":"我們台積電不是去了投資了一千億的嗎"},{"start":212.029,"end":237.612,"text":"那這樣子的話我們還必須要再去補那個739嗎怎麼會是這樣子呢那你們就不用談判了啊是不是這樣子跟委員報告就是我覺得美國現在如同我剛一開始有提到美國現在訴求的是所謂經濟安全跟國家安全所以第一個部分他希望台積電去多投資是他考量到晶片的這些供應鏈安全那可是至於他認為說在這個公平的"},{"start":238.112,"end":257.45,"text":"所谓对等关税这个议题是希望美国可以多出口来增加他自己美国本身的就业市场那所以就这个部分呢我想台积电的投资确实有强化了我们台美的未来在贸易谈判的良好的一个气氛的基础是吗我想这个副总代表你知道就是说"},{"start":258.371,"end":275.518,"text":"在近期尤其在昨天我們給他看了以前的一個黃金是已經到了那個一萬兩千塊這個跟過年前其實是有很大的一個差別黃金大漲了那這個一盎司三千美元的這個黃金其實大概就是說"},{"start":276.618,"end":300.587,"text":"也給這個市場帶動了一個很大的一個震撼那川普引發世界上的一個變局你看我們從這個漫畫裡頭我們看得出來就是說他這一顆大石頭他已經就是從山上那個下來了他其實在考驗的就是全世界每一個國家你是不是可以好好的來面對了這些經濟上的一個議題那我想請問你這個美國人"},{"start":303.268,"end":332.657,"text":"就是非常愛消費非常愛買東西那全世界4%的人口美國佔了全世界4%的人口可是他消費了全世界20%的一個產品喔所以美國人是非常愛買的一個那個國家那這樣子到底川普是在製造一場經濟上的一個衰退還是經濟上的一個提升啊那代表你怎麼看他就講美國現階段你看川普"},{"start":334.431,"end":359.213,"text":"好謝謝委員的這個問題我們經貿辦經貿辦沒有對這個所謂的整體的經濟情勢來做分析所以基本上可能這個會由我們其他的主政單位來說明會比較恰當那但是我們當然知道說你沒有看整個全世界的這個經濟的話你怎麼去談判啊怎麼會是這樣子的一個回答的問題咧對所以我想補充我請教你你讓我問誰"},{"start":361.65,"end":387.347,"text":"我來問誰是比較恰當的我想整體的經濟情勢的這個預估或展望或許我剛剛我有聽到我們的央行這邊可能有提出一個比較整體性的一個說明所以我要問央行的副總裁就是全球的經濟的一個不確定性到底你要怎麼面對的這個全球的不確定性經濟的不確定性好來副總裁你來回答"},{"start":388.513,"end":405.822,"text":"我想那個代表你這樣的一個談判態度是讓人家擔心的其實台灣本身我們的競爭的實力在全世界很好我是執政黨的委員換寬欣來我讓你們盡量多講我這個Line不是Line是寶那個Line"},{"start":414.248,"end":427.725,"text":"其實我剛才已經在強調全世界現在有關於對川普不確定性大家不是很清楚怎麼樣可是就他們設定的不管是什麼樣的參數我們現在看到的他對於"},{"start":433.25,"end":444.013,"text":"這個全球經濟的影響至少對台灣這個部分所以它的衰退已經非常的明顯了我們看得到了剛才看到的就是說看我們那個圖形就看到很多國家都是被調降經濟成長率噴霍膨脹率是上升"},{"start":453.256,"end":462.846,"text":"央行是非常少數經濟成長率上升的一個國家如果我們這個骯髒的15國裡頭我們用高關稅還是高貿易就是它的一個"},{"start":469.692,"end":485.437,"text":"變成就是說它的一個排序來看的話那有沒有比較明顯的就是說在你的經驗裡頭哪一個是比較明顯的作為代表這個骯髒的十五國它是用高關稅還是用高貿易額來做這個排序呢"},{"start":486.553,"end":509.371,"text":"我想他應該是用高貿易額對因為基本上我們在關稅上剛才已經看到平均的那個稅率我們是低的只有農產品是例外所以應該是關鍵指標中那個貿易額這一個部分是比較可能的"},{"start":510.331,"end":539.251,"text":"對 沒有錯嘛你看嘛這個美國前20大的一個貿易入鈔的國家跟美國之間的一個關稅差距我們在2023年做出來的就是說美國的加權平均關稅率是1.7那就低於台灣的台灣的加權平均關稅是1.7低於美國的2.2那如果是簡單的平均關稅6.5的話卻高於美國的3.3這個非常清楚啊所以我在想"},{"start":540.331,"end":561.166,"text":"如果我們用這樣子我們從央行的報告裡頭我們可以看到了兩個重點這兩個重點的話就是說到底台美的那個關稅的一個差距來講剛才就我特別講到了就是這個差距是1.7%比美國那個就是就是的2.2%還低0.5個百分點"},{"start":565.969,"end":590.321,"text":"這樣子的話你是不是就是說我們財政委員會一直在關注一個問題就是在這個會期的那個初期的時候我在總質詢裡頭特別請教了行政院長那你可以不可以說明就是說在這個當然這個是台美經濟貿易的一個對談小組可是顯然大家大家都非常的保守就是說"},{"start":592.43,"end":616.515,"text":"你們應該是要把這一個就是說你們去看了然後去對談了到什麼樣的一個層級可以講到什麼樣的一個對話應該讓我們知道可是我們也知道就是說可能礙於就是說有一些有一些條件上你們沒有辦法就是很明確的講出來所以總裁那個副總裁我覺得我還是要在"},{"start":617.635,"end":628.291,"text":"請教你一個問題就是你因應就是說這整個經濟可能會面臨到了一個退化的一個狀況的時候那你的台幣會升還是會貶其實剛才這個"},{"start":632.737,"end":655.127,"text":"我們也都談到央行基本上匯率是由市場決定只有在一些突發因素考慮市場穩定性會進場一下讓它平衡所以我們看到金台幣匯率相對其他國家匯率不得下你覺得近期就是美債一直在降一直在衰退那你台幣會不會調"},{"start":658.705,"end":661.947,"text":"應該是這樣子這三個月台幣會不會調我覺得影響資金移動的應該是現在美國跟台灣股市之間的凝動關係外資"},{"start":675.905,"end":685.936,"text":"把他過去的獲利等等他匯了一大部分出去所以你認為說現在其實是在盤整所以你的台幣台幣是匯升還是匯降"},{"start":691.161,"end":719.96,"text":"移動怎麼樣他也是因為市場波動跟著去調整那最近波動比較大是外資匯出可是外資也會反過來匯進台灣那時候整個方向又是相反的所以基本上我們並沒有一個定向的說一定貶值升值要看市場情況副總裁我是執政黨的委員你要多利用我們的質詢裡頭多講一些比較正向的不要閃不要躲"},{"start":721.101,"end":722.786,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝你謝謝賴召惠警察的資訊我們休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":615,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時50分）謝謝主席，有請行政院經貿談判辦公室。"],["主席：請行政院的顏副總代表。"],["賴委員惠員：顏副總裁……不是，是顏副總談判代表。"],["主席：對。"],["賴委員惠員：我想今天的主題是探討因應川普的對等關稅還有我們國家被列入了骯髒15國名單的策略，我聽到之前我們幾個同事在講，其實經濟部常次的回應是我們還不見得就是在15個骯髒國的名單裡面，到底是有還是沒有？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：依美國官員的說法，他只有講到15國，但是他沒有提出具體的國家名單。"],["賴委員惠員：那你認為有還是沒有？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我覺得我們可以先不去做研判，但是我們可以去了解美國為什麼會提到要有這15國的概念，也就是貿易順差比較大以及對關稅他認為有不公平的情況。"],["賴委員惠員：你是我們的談判代表，在我們對美國的貿易有739億這麼多的順差，你認為我們會在這個骯髒15國的名單裡面嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們如果純粹……"],["賴委員惠員：你不要閃避啊！如果你連這個都在閃避的話，那怎麼談得下去呢？今天賴召委排的這一個議題就變成假議題了，對不對？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，謝謝委員，從貿易順差的絕對數字來看，我們當然是排名在前面的這些國家之一。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我們也做好了這些準備？也做好了很多的模擬？不管任何在政策上需要調整的，不管是任何的關稅調整，是不是大家其實已經都不斷的在做這樣的準備了？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，我們經貿辦跟各部會實際上都在這個臺北經貿工作小組裡面進行密集的討論，所以對各種的情境我們都已經有做過模擬，提出可能有哪一些因應的方案，我們都有討論過。"],["賴委員惠員：是嘛！因為我們也知道，從川普當選了以後，其實我們整個財政委員會在上個會期裡頭都一直在關注，也一直反覆的跟行政院、財政部甚至金管會不斷的在討論，因為這個實在是事關重大。短期他造成全球股市的波動，也間接的影響到我們國家在未來5年、10年甚至20年的發展方向。川普引發了世界這麼大的變局，那我們臺灣政府當然是嚴陣以待，因為我們就是賺了人家那麼多的錢，我們看川普的態度，川普就是一個生意人，或許他認為要先針對美國的整個經濟狀況，就是要你們來投資。剛才我聽了很多官員的回復，尤其是賴士葆委員，每次只要他質詢，我都很認真的在聽，他把大家帶向的就是你要怎麼補這739億，我們台積電不是去投資了1,000億了嗎？這樣子的話，我們還必須要再去補那個739億嗎？怎麼會是這樣子呢？那你們就不用談判了啊！是不是這樣子？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，我覺得美國現在就如同我剛剛一開始提到的，美國現在訴求的是所謂經濟安全跟國家安全，所以第一個部分是他希望台積電去多投資，因為他考量到晶片這些供應鏈的安全；至於他在這個公平的、所謂對等關稅的這個議題，就是希望美國可以多出口來增加美國自己本身的就業市場。所以就這個部分我想台積電的投資確實有強化了我們臺美未來在貿易談判時有良好氣氛的基礎。"],["賴委員惠員：是嘛！我想副總代表也知道，我們看到近期黃金的價格大漲，尤其在昨天一錢的黃金已經到了1萬2,000塊，這個跟過年前其實有很大的差別，黃金大漲了，1盎司3,000美元的黃金其實也在這個市場帶動了一個很大的震撼。川普引發了世界上的變局，我們從這個漫畫裡頭看得出來，就是這顆大石頭已經從山上下來了，他其實在考驗的就是全世界每一個國家是不是可以好好的來面對這些經濟上的議題。那我想請問你，美國人就是非常愛消費、非常愛買東西，美國占了全世界4%的人口，可是他們消費了全世界20%的產品，所以美國人是非常愛買東西的國家，那這樣子到底川普是在製造一場經濟上的衰退還是經濟上的提升？顏副總談判代表，你怎麼看美國現階段的川普？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：好，謝謝委員的這個問題，我們經貿辦基本上沒有對所謂的整體經濟情勢來做分析，所以這個可能由我們其他的主政單位來說明會比較恰當。但是我們當然知道……"],["賴委員惠員：如果你沒有看全世界的整個經濟，你怎麼去談判呢？怎麼會是這樣子回答這個問題呢？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，所以我想補充……"],["賴委員惠員：那我請教你，你讓我問誰？我來問誰是比較恰當的？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想整體經濟情勢的預估或展望，剛剛我有聽到我們的央行這邊可能有提出一個比較整體性的說明。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我要問央行的副總裁？就是到底你要怎麼面對全球經濟的不確定性？好，請副總裁來回答。我想顏副總談判代表這樣的一個談判態度是讓人家擔心的。"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實我們臺灣本身競爭的實力在全世界很好……"],["賴委員惠員：我是執政黨的委員，可以放寬心，我讓你們儘量多講。我這個「賴」不是賴士葆那個「賴」。"],["朱副總裁美麗：好，謝謝。其實我剛才已經在強調，就是全世界現在對於川普的不確定性，大家不是很清楚怎麼樣，可是就他們所設定的，不管是什麼樣的參數，我們現在所看到對於全球經濟的影響，至少對臺灣這個部分是很樂觀……"],["賴委員惠員：所以它的衰退已經非常的明顯了，我們都看得到。"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，剛才看到的就是說……"],["賴委員惠員：我們可以預期看得到了。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們看那個圖形就看到了，很多國家都是被調降經濟成長率，通貨膨脹率是上升，央行預測我們是非常少數經濟成長率上升的國家。"],["賴委員惠員：好，副總裁，如果我們被列入骯髒15國裡頭，對我們是用高關稅還是高貿易額？就是從它的排序來看有沒有比較明顯的？依照你的經驗，哪一個是比較明顯的？你認為這個骯髒15國是用高關稅還是用高貿易額來做排序呢？你們總是要有一個判讀啊！"],["朱副總裁美麗：我想他應該是用高貿易額。"],["賴委員惠員：高貿易額？"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，因為基本上我們在關稅上剛才已經看到了，我們平均的稅率是低的，只有農產品是例外，所以應該在關鍵指標中那個貿易額的部分是比較可能的。"],["賴委員惠員：對，沒有錯嘛！你看美國前二十大的貿易入超國家跟美國之間的關稅差距，這是我們在2023年做出來的，就是臺灣的加權平均關稅率是1.7%，低於美國的2.2%；如果是簡單平均關稅6.5%的話，卻高於美國的3.3%，這個非常的清楚。所以我們從央行的報告裡頭可以看到兩個重點，這兩個重點就是到底以臺美的關稅差距來講，剛才我特別講到，這個差距是1.7%，比美國的2.2%還低0.5%。我們財政委員會一直在關注一個問題，就是在這個會期初期的時候，我在總質詢特別請教了行政院長，你可以不可以說明，當然這個是臺美經濟貿易的對談小組，可是顯然大家都非常的保守，你們應該是要把你們去看了、去對談了，然後到什麼樣的層級？可以講到什麼樣的對話？這應該讓我們知道。可是我們也知道，可能礙於有一些條件上，你們沒有辦法很明確地講出來，所以副總裁，我還是要再請教你一個問題，因應整個經濟可能會面臨到一個退化狀況的時候，臺幣會升還是會貶？"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實剛才我們也都談到，央行基本上匯率是由市場決定，只有在一些突發因素，考慮到市場穩定性，會進場一下讓它平衡，所以我們看到新臺幣匯率相對其他國家匯率……"],["賴委員惠員：近期美債一直在衰退，那臺幣會不會調？"],["朱副總裁美麗：應該是這樣子……"],["賴委員惠員：這3個月，臺幣會不會調？影響大還是小？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我覺得影響資金移動的應該是現在美國跟臺灣股市之間的連動關係，外資把它過去的獲利等等匯了一大部分出去而影響。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你認為現在其實是在盤整？所以臺幣是會升還是會降？短期內。"],["朱副總裁美麗：因為外資的移動怎麼樣，它也是因為市場波動跟著去調整，最近波動比較大是外資匯出，可是外資也會反過來匯進臺灣，那時候整個方向又是相反的，所以基本上，我們並沒有定向的說一定貶值或升值，要看市場情況才知道。"],["賴委員惠員：副總裁，我是執政黨的委員，你要多利用我們的質詢，多講一些比較正向的，不要閃，不要躲。謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["朱副總裁美麗：好，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委精彩的質詢。","我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時2分）","繼續開會（11時12分）"],["主席：向委員會報告，我們繼續開會。","請各位就定位，如果需要交談，拜託各位就到我們的會議室外面，不要影響到會議的進行。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00001"}}},{"id":"159695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9003b2bc2c7469845e51a80f058510e45acb9e3eaef4bc7903317f2b9852dd2beff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:39:48 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副總代表 請委員好市長 我想我延續剛才李燕秀委員她的一個這個直訊的內容我想我們一直關心說台灣到底會不會被列入我們所謂的骯髒15國the 1315的名單"},{"start":21.721,"end":36.403,"text":"那我想這一次的安昌15國它主要美國所訂的就是對美國的課徵高關稅以及有貿易順差非常大的幾個國家進行管控的與壓力的施加"},{"start":37.344,"end":52.791,"text":"那當然根據媒體的報導台灣有可能會被列入為這個名單之一但是我們剛才一直 李燕雄委員非常關心如果在4月2號以前他就要生效嘛 要公佈嘛那在4月2號以前到底我國"},{"start":54.144,"end":76.645,"text":"跟美國有沒有進行相關的貿易談判或者我們在策略上要做什麼樣的因應能夠避免台灣被列入因為川普昨天對媒體來講可能對一些讓步的國家或者跟他們透過談判他們會把他豁免你認為台灣有可能被豁免嗎透過什麼樣的一個策略來做"},{"start":78.46,"end":90.808,"text":"跟委員報告兩點第一點呢就如同委員所說的這骯髒15國到底是哪些國家現在不確定都是媒體的報導第二點呢因為要等到4月1號整個備忘錄的檢討報告出來之後"},{"start":93.188,"end":109.113,"text":"我們才會知道川普政府會對主要的貿易的對手國採取什麼樣的關稅的措施但是在這個之前因為台美的關係經貿關係非常密切其實從川普還沒有上任之前我們就密切觀察"},{"start":109.793,"end":123.739,"text":"川普的相關的言論然後他上任之後因為台美經貿溝通管道很多不論是我們過去有訪團或者有任何的美國的官員甚至國會議員到台灣來訪我們都會跟他們說明台美經貿關係的重要性以及台灣資通訊產品"},{"start":132.541,"end":143.457,"text":"對於美國的重要性因為其實台灣的這個資通訊的產品之所以會輸美呢最主要也是美國的客戶下的單所以這樣聽起來那個次長你是很樂觀的喔"},{"start":147.301,"end":172.915,"text":"你認為台美的經貿關係現在是溝通無礙非常的暢通美國也很諒解我國的一個處境所以我聽你開這句話你是認為我們不會被列入囉?您的評估我們還是很謹慎因為川普他還沒有公布他這樣的報告但是我們必須利用任何的各種的機會各種的管道所以在4月2號以前我們會進行相關的一些措施囉?會不會?"},{"start":174.218,"end":192.139,"text":"我們會進行溝通因為現在不知道他美國會採取什麼樣的措施還沒有進入談判的階段那就來不及他4月2號之前如果沒有任何進行任何的一個作為他就公佈了你你如何你還要跟他談判報告委員在行政院有一個這個"},{"start":194.001,"end":220.395,"text":"這個台美的專案小組我們有各種可能的方案來進行沙盤推演也研議了各種的應對我想市長我們還是希望台灣不要被列入那該怎麼樣來做談判那幾個項目要做讓步的或是怎麼樣我想我國應該要有積極的一個因應的措施請你們加油接下來請這個央行你請回"},{"start":221.653,"end":222.338,"text":"楊瀾的副總裁"},{"start":228.69,"end":234.794,"text":"副總裁央行去年11月15號也對外表示過台灣續留在美國的匯率操縱觀察名單內將可能會是常態主因是為台灣對美的貿易順差一直擴增而非匯率的問題"},{"start":256.508,"end":267.458,"text":"所以我要請問副總裁如果主要原因是因為雙方的貿易的順差央行是否認為台灣被正式列入為骯髒十五國的名單的機率很大"},{"start":270.829,"end":288.379,"text":"我剛才在報告中已經談到基本上央行被列入匯率操縱的可能性如果跟那些指標是很小的但是是不是會很小的 對不起到目前為止我們溝通"},{"start":293.962,"end":309.195,"text":"管道等等都了解貿易順差到底是什麼原因那美國財政部也很了解這個部分所以我不覺得這個部分會是一個考慮的因素但是在關稅的"},{"start":311.016,"end":327.376,"text":"部分就陳儒剛才各部會講其實他的標準到底最後是不是我們講的貿易順差或關稅稅率會有其他考量這個目前他沒有公佈之前我們是沒有確定的信息"},{"start":328.697,"end":348.846,"text":"當然現在是不確定的狀態但是我們還是要預作因應所以我問你假設性的問題如果台灣真的被列為名單之一美國將會執行的對等關稅那就會攸關我們台灣的進出口到那個時候央行針對台幣對美元的匯率是否會進行必要的調節"},{"start":350.449,"end":366.966,"text":"其實台幣的匯率都是市場供需決定的但是我們在面對這樣的問題金融的穩定性外匯市場的穩定性我們會去觀察那進一步當然"},{"start":369.607,"end":389.972,"text":"這個部分市場波動比較大的時候當然 你到時候再說因應對 我們會去穩定但這不叫干預對 OK那對於今年經濟的成長率啊你預估可能會有什麼樣的影響這個都假設性的問題如果把我們列入1315對我們的經濟的成長率會有什麼樣的影響其實在那個我們的報告裡面"},{"start":397.079,"end":399.581,"text":"他在做這個臆測的時候他有一些假設條件在那譬如說義孤關稅稅率等等不同的設定之下我們可以看到對台灣的影響"},{"start":413.309,"end":431.851,"text":"經濟成長力其實很小而且在經濟成長力它在三月份的數值是大於在二月份調升的0.1%所以我們的經濟成長力在它這兒的估計是往上漲的物價是非常穩定的"},{"start":432.512,"end":446.863,"text":"你的預估我們希望你的預估是如你所講的啦好 謝謝我想這個本席昨天在這邊我們有我有詢問這個金管會的彭主委關於國內銀行對投資新南向國家企業的販款的動能"},{"start":447.884,"end":461.656,"text":"就今年前兩個月來看累積新增販款量是475億核准新社數也到達達標值的三分之二已達到全年目標728億元的65%市場上也認為2025年就全年有望達陣"},{"start":470.163,"end":486.611,"text":"那所以這些新南向國家如果現在如果也被列入為這個骯髒15國之內那勢必會受到這個整個美國政策變動及美國採取對等關稅的一個政策的導向之下"},{"start":488.372,"end":501.865,"text":"勢必會造成他們經濟放緩在這種情況之下就會影響當地企業的還款能力所以請問央行是否對於推進新南向的政策是否認為要調整"},{"start":504.378,"end":509.922,"text":"其實央行對於金融機構這邊基本上我們都會有一個相關的檢視的標準比如說資本市足利還有預放款金額預放率等等那至少到目前為止我想金管會那邊應該也有相關"},{"start":526.656,"end":547.702,"text":"是OK的我們了解是OK還沒發生嘛現在我只是說你要未來如果面對這個問題你要先做因應嘛所以我們新南向的政策未來的販款的信用的管制會不會有所管控這部分你也要做預你做一個相關的一個措施來對應好沒關係我想你你跟我講滾動式的檢討那個請經濟部好了經濟部次長請你再上來"},{"start":554.285,"end":569.779,"text":"如果假設真的被列入了15國我們這個新南向的這15個國家也被列入為這個骯髒15國之內它的經濟會放緩嗎那我們對它的一個這個整個我們投資新南向的政策會不會有所調整"},{"start":571.961,"end":597.277,"text":"報告委員因為新南向國家對美國有出超比較多的國家大概也就是像越南還有泰國等國我們新南向國家的印度也是新南向國家但是他跟美國也是有順差所以我們會因為現代經濟部採取的方向就是這個"},{"start":600.322,"end":611.838,"text":"鼓勵我們的廠商全球佈局過去曾經有鼓勵到新南向國家所以現在其實在歐洲中歐的這個地方面對這種川普這種政策不確定性"},{"start":616.924,"end":630.862,"text":"我是建議經濟部對於整個我們未來整個我們廠商的佈局要多元化的一個進行來降低整個我們投資的風險希望你們能夠儘早的做佈局以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時39分）好，謝謝主席。首先請經濟部江次長、行政院經貿談判處顏慧欣顏副總代表。"],["主席：請江次長、顏副總代表。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想我延續剛才李彥秀委員的質詢內容，我想我們一直關心臺灣到底會不會被列入所謂骯髒15國（The Dirty 15）的名單，我想這一次的骯髒15國，美國主要鎖定的就是對美國課徵高關稅，以及有貿易順差非常大的幾個國家進行管控與壓力的施加，當然根據媒體的報導，臺灣有可能會被列入為名單之一。但是剛才李彥秀委員非常關心的是，如果在4月2號以前它就要生效、要公布，那在4月2號以前，到底我國跟美國有沒有進行相關的貿易談判，或者我們在策略上要做怎麼樣的因應，能夠避免臺灣被列入？因為川普昨天才對媒體講，有可能對一些讓步的國家，或者跟他們透過談判，他們會把他豁免，你認為臺灣有可能被豁免嗎？透過什麼樣的策略來做？"],["江次長文若：跟委員報告兩點：第一點，如同委員所說的，骯髒15國到底是哪些國家，現在不確定，都是媒體的報導。第二點，因為要等到4月1號整個備忘錄的檢討報告出來之後，我們才會知道川普政府會對主要的貿易對手國採取什麼樣的關稅措施，但是在這個之前，因為臺美的經貿關係非常密切，其實從川普還沒有上任之前，我們就密切觀察川普的相關言論，然後他上任之後，因為臺美經貿溝通管道很多，不論是我們過去的訪團，或者有任何美國的官員，甚至國會議員到臺灣來訪，我們都會跟他們說明臺美經貿關係的重要性，以及臺灣資通訊產品對於美國的重要性，因為其實臺灣的資通訊產品之所以會輸美，最主要也是美國客戶下的單。"],["林委員思銘：所以這樣聽起來，次長，您是很樂觀的喔？您認為臺美的經貿關係現在是溝通無礙，非常的暢通，美國也很諒解我國的處境，所以我聽你講這席話，您是認為我們不會被列入囉？您的評估。"],["江次長文若：我們還是很謹慎，因為川普還沒有公布他的報告，但是我們必須利用任何各種的機會、各種的管道，甚至我們……"],["林委員思銘：所以在4月2號以前，我們會進行相關的一些措施，會不會？"],["江次長文若：我們會進行溝通。"],["林委員思銘：你有去談判嗎？"],["江次長文若：因為現在不知道美國會採取什麼樣的措施，還沒有進入談判的階段。"],["林委員思銘：那就來不及啦！4月2號之前，如果沒有進行任何的作為，他就公布啦！你還要跟他談判啊？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，在行政院有一個臺美的專案小組，我們有就各種可能的方案來進行沙盤推演，也研議了各種的應對。"],["林委員思銘：我想次長，我們還是希望臺灣不要被列入，該怎麼樣來做談判，哪幾個項目要做讓步的或是怎麼樣，我想我國應該要有積極的因應措施。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["林委員思銘：請你們加油啦！"],["江次長文若：是。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好，你請回。接下來請央行朱副總裁。"],["主席：央行的副總裁。"],["林委員思銘：次長，你們請回。"],["朱副總裁美麗：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，你請回。"],["主席：經濟部的次長請回去休息。"],["林委員思銘：還有談判代表請回。副總裁，央行去年1月15號也對外表示過，臺灣續留在美國的匯率操縱觀察名單內將可能會是常態，主因是為臺灣對美的貿易順差一直擴增，而非匯率的問題。所以要請問副總裁，如果主要原因是因為雙方的貿易順差，央行是否認為臺灣被正式列入骯髒15國名單的機率很大？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我剛才在報告中已經談到，基本上央行被列入匯率操縱的可能性，如果根據那些指標是少的，但是……"],["林委員思銘：很小、很小。"],["朱副總裁美麗：很小的，可以說到目前……"],["林委員思銘：很小。"],["朱副總裁美麗：對不起。到目前為止，我們溝通管道等等都了解貿易順差到底是什麼原因，那美國財政部也很了解這個部分，所以我不覺得這個部分會是一個考慮的因素，但是在關稅的部分，就誠如剛才各部會講的，其實他的標準到底最後是不是我們講的貿易順差或關稅稅率，或是有其他考量，這個目前他沒有公布之前，我們是沒有確定的信息。"],["林委員思銘：當然現在是不確定的狀態，但是我們還是要預做因應啦！所以我問你假設性的問題，如果臺灣真的被列為名單之一，美國將會執行的對等關稅就會攸關我們臺灣的進出口，到那個時候，央行針對臺幣兌美元的匯率，是否會進行必要的調節？"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實臺幣的匯率都是市場供需決定啦！"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["朱副總裁美麗：但是我們在面對這樣的問題，金融的穩定性、外匯市場的穩定性，我們會去觀察，進一步……市場波動比較大的時候……"],["林委員思銘：當然到時候再做因應。"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，我們會去穩定，但這不叫干預。"],["林委員思銘：OK，那對於今年經濟的成長率，你預估可能會有什麼樣的影響？這個都是假設性的問題，如果把我們列入The Dirty 15，對我們的經濟成長率會有什麼樣的影響？"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實在我們的報告裡面，S＆P Global他在做這個預測的時候，他有一些假設條件在那，譬如說預估關稅、稅率等等不同的設定之下，我們可以看到對臺灣的影響……"],["林委員思銘：經濟成長率。"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實很小，而且經濟成長率它在3月份的數值是大於2月份，調升了0.1%，所以我們的經濟成長率在他這邊的估計是往上漲的，物價是非常穩定的。"],["林委員思銘：好，我們希望你的預估是如你所講的啦！"],["朱副總裁美麗：好，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：我想本席昨天在這邊，我有詢問金管會的彭主委，關於國內銀行對投資新南向國家企業的放款動能，就今年前兩個月來看，累積新增放款量是475億，核准新設數也到達達標值的三分之二，已達到全年目標728億元的65%，市場上也認為2025年全年有望達陣，所以這些新南向國家如果也被列入骯髒15國之內，那勢必會受到整個美國政策變動及美國採取對等關稅的政策導向之下，造成他們的經濟放緩，在這種情況之下，就會影響當地企業的還款能力。所以我要請問央行，對於推進新南向的政策，是否認為要調整？"],["朱副總裁美麗：其實央行對於金融機構這邊，基本上我們都會有一個相關的檢視標準，比如說資本適足率，還有逾放款金額、逾放率等等，那至少到目前為止，我想金管會那邊應該也有相關……"],["林委員思銘：到目前當然是……"],["朱副總裁美麗：是OK的。"],["林委員思銘：副總裁，我們了解是OK，還沒發生嘛！現在我只是說未來如果面對這個問題，你要先做因應，所以我們的新南向政策，未來放款的信用管制會不會有所管控，這部分你也要預擬做一個相關的措施來對應。"],["朱副總裁美麗：對，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：沒關係，我想你都跟我講過滾動式的檢討。請經濟部好了，經濟部次長，請你再上來。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林委員思銘：假設真的被列入了15國，我們新南向的這15個國家也被列入骯髒15國之內，他的經濟會放緩，那我們整個投資新南向的政策會不會有所調整？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，因為新南向國家中對美國有出超比較多的國家，大概也就是像越南還有泰國等國，我們新南向國家的……"],["林委員思銘：印度有沒有？印度、澳門應該也都含在內吧？"],["江次長文若：印度也是新南向的國家，他跟美國也有順差，所以我們會……因為現在經濟部採取的方向就是鼓勵我們的廠商全球布局，過去曾經有鼓勵到新南向國家，現在其實對中歐這個地方我們的業者也非常有興趣。"],["林委員思銘：面對川普這種政策的不確定性，我是建議經濟部對於我們未來整個廠商的布局要多元化的進行，來降低我們整個投資的風險。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["林委員思銘：希望你們能夠儘早的布局，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林思銘委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員召委質詢。向委員會報告，在賴召委質詢完畢以後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00001"}}},{"id":"159694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900366387216513ab761a80f058510e45acb9e3eaef4bc790334a16c5dc7554018e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:28:21 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莊部長來 莊部長請朱副總裁國發會的高副主委副總裁經濟部正式請假經濟部的江次長江次長農業部的杜長次農業部長次來"},{"start":25.689,"end":40.271,"text":"好 今天這個議題從川普當選之後我覺得我們跨部會在高層的會議照理說應該有很多的討論"},{"start":41.833,"end":66.323,"text":"部長你可不可以先回應我你們有沒有跨部會的會議討論過這些議題跟委員報告確實有因為行政院有一個台美經貿工作小組的會議因為這個幕僚作業是由經貿辦公室在這邊在做幕僚作業討論過幾次次數可能經貿辦會比較清楚好部長我再問一個問題"},{"start":68.649,"end":71.635,"text":"有可能我們會被列入1315有可能還不曉得如果我們被列入的話你覺得公不公平"},{"start":80.862,"end":103.072,"text":"我想這個部分當然我們從美國追求貿易你覺得公不公平這個國際間怎麼講公平或不公平因為美國有美國的立場我想這個部分我們會就你不知道公不公平你心裡有沒有想法好那我問央行的副總裁你覺得公平嗎"},{"start":105.1,"end":117.004,"text":"我覺得貿易是要講究對等的那公平這個意義其實基本上是比較那我再請問我們經濟部公不公平"},{"start":122.063,"end":147.228,"text":"報告委員美國之所以要採取這個對等的關稅它是利用關稅做一個手段最主要的目的呢它還是希望能夠減少貿易逆差以及讓更多的國外企業到美國投資我知道但是我們真的很骯髒嗎把我們列入骯髒15國我們真的很骯髒嗎你覺得委不委屈站在你的位置立場委不委屈"},{"start":149.209,"end":174.766,"text":"我想第一個,這15國包括哪些,目前並不知道好,不知道,我們覺得,我個人覺得很委屈因為這是我們共同創造拼產業、拼經濟、拼努力民間跟政府一起努力的結果我個人會覺得很委屈但是我很遺憾你們說不出委屈兩個字喔那好,假設最壞的狀況,我要請問部長如果我們真的被列為骯髒15國的話"},{"start":177.355,"end":200.166,"text":"我們會不會跟其他14國聯合起來跟WTO申訴部長還是經濟辦事處你回答我我們有沒有這樣的劇本就是說我覺得接下來各式各樣的狀況可能發生加拿大跟墨西哥他們事前也跟川普做了談判後來他們還是被突襲了"},{"start":202.079,"end":215.268,"text":"我們也沒有各式各樣版本的準備甚至是假使我們真的被列為骯髒15國我們會不會跟其他14個國家跟WTO申訴有沒有這樣的準備誰可以回答我"},{"start":217.909,"end":232.382,"text":"謝謝委員我是行政院經貿辦我想針對這個議題我們現在不排除就是我們需要去評估4月2號我們所看到的這個關稅的結果然後我們才會通盤的去思考才要通盤的檢討你們有版本嗎"},{"start":234.244,"end":248.72,"text":"我們做一件事情最好最壞有可能發生狀況你沒有版本你到時候才要知道嗎剛才你回答那個中加兵委員說最大宗的我們出口的美國可以進口你們現在才要盤點"},{"start":250.404,"end":276.887,"text":"我都覺得很訝異這哪些東西我們可以進口去平衡貿易的順差的跟美國貿易順差的部分早就應該知道我們怎麼去做處理如果還要四個月才可以盤點那我覺得你們前面開的會對不起我叫做白開因為顯然你跟美國沒有辦法談判談判就是有東西拿來換拿來去做籌吧我有什麼他有什麼我們可能談的結果有可能聚焦大家可以接受"},{"start":278.041,"end":292.613,"text":"如果回答前一位委員質詢的說還要四個月才知道怎麼樣平衡貿易順暢有哪些項目的話我跟你講你一定被納入15國之一我這樣講不過分合理因為這是我在看談判過程這是標準ABC"},{"start":295.834,"end":304.485,"text":"跟委員報告,其實行政院的台美經貿工作小組的開會其實是非常的密集那對於各種方案都有研擬不會等到4月2號宣布的時候我們才去討論後面的東西"},{"start":313.337,"end":336.788,"text":"那所以幹嘛回答人家說要四個月照理說你現在都已經知道說有哪些項目我們可以平衡貿易的順差其實不用四個月你照理說你應該非常的清楚才對好 不講我要問另外一個問題我非常遺憾的是你們在呼嚨立法院我們今年對美的貿易順差你預估大概會多少"},{"start":340.665,"end":344.758,"text":"去年美國是739億美元嘛那今年會有多少"},{"start":347.303,"end":373.29,"text":"進出口值有預估吧如果接下來每一年都還是750、800、900、1000億我們當然很高興站在產業的立場稅收的立場我們很高興但是在跟美國談判在川普接下來三年半之內你根本不可能你根本要各式各樣手法的準備嘛所以今年你沒有預估貿易順差是多少還是誰可以回應我經貿辦還是誰應該回應我"},{"start":376.531,"end":382.901,"text":"那我們今年到底應該是多少 有沒有預估過沒有 不知道"},{"start":387.117,"end":414.269,"text":"跟委員報告我們還是跟委員報告在我們的行政院的財美經貿工作小都有各種方案也提到貿易平衡貿易平衡是互相追求的一個目標我們也會擴大對美國的進口那這個數值就會變嘛好我知道部長你還是沒有回應到我我支持採購軍購我支持買黃小玉我支持採購能源"},{"start":416.07,"end":434.939,"text":"那你今年不管買什麼東西你到底可以平衡多少的貿易順差你們有沒有一個預估的數字你要買這些我都不反對買能源買軍購買黃小玉農產品央行這樣我都支持那你目標是多少數字是多少有沒有數字出來"},{"start":441.874,"end":461.355,"text":"我們的方向很確定但是很多事情是要在談判的時候大家再來談的是吧好不能講那我接下來再問兩個問題經貿辦應該也很清楚經濟部也應該回應我我們接下來台積電接下來三四年雖然台積電到美國去設廠也不是這兩年馬上就可以出口生產"},{"start":462.574,"end":478.027,"text":"接下來這兩年台積電的複合成長率兩三年還是高達44到46%也是台積電還是持續的賺錢所以也代表著我們跟美國的貿易順差會持續的加大那要買什麼接下來這幾年怎麼去控制我們貿易順差有誰可以回應我"},{"start":491.315,"end":517.305,"text":"二位委員所以台積電它現在已經開始全球佈局我知道但是它全球佈局但是我從台積電我從媒體新聞報表它接下來這幾年它還是44到46%數字擺在眼前川普還有三年所以你們貿易順差的手段平衡貿易順差的手段是什麼"},{"start":518.513,"end":547.16,"text":"所以我們必須要加大對美的採購採購什麼農產品黃小玉台灣就兩千三百多萬人吃也吃不了這麼多軍備我也沒有反對三趴我也支持我個人可以支持黨團當然各政黨還要再討論但是我們的貿易順差是三趴是一千多億但是距離平衡也還有一段數字"},{"start":548.533,"end":551.161,"text":"包括達到川普的目標他均夠達10%739億相當是兩兆多嘛"},{"start":556.451,"end":584.713,"text":"那我們即便買三趴的軍購也才一千多億那個數字差距還很大所以我們今天辦這個專案報告我聽不到對不起我聽不到什麼具體的內容我們可以平衡你有什麼手段包括如果剛回答前議員的我們怎麼大中的經濟的產業要買哪些東西平衡順差你還要四個月評估那我都很懷疑我們怎麼去跟人家做談判"},{"start":586.601,"end":615.935,"text":"我這個質詢白白坐在這邊質詢但是我聽不到任何的答案如果我們有具體的手段包括最壞的打算要跟WTO如果假設最壞的狀況我們跟也被列為骯髒15國之一我們有沒有跟其他國家有做好準備有沒有在溝通如果這也是劇本之一這有沒有這是不是劇本之一這是不是劇本之一跟其他14國跟WTO申訴有沒有這樣的劇本存在誰可以回應我"},{"start":619.364,"end":631.272,"text":"有沒有討論過我想我們針對每一個國家現在在因應美國的這些政策上面我們都有在掌握因為畢竟大家跟美國那有沒有跟他們聯繫過他們會怎麼做你們清楚嗎"},{"start":632.518,"end":657.196,"text":"我們有看到有一些有展開制裁有一些在評估做自主的調整那我們都持續在掌握這些國家的因應那其他14國的聯合申訴有沒有做這樣的思考有沒有可能做這樣的思考因為我們實際上不知道實際上這55國是哪些國家所以我們現在不知道但可以猜得出來嘛看數字就可以猜得出來嘛我也不知道坐在這個位置不知道那也很奇怪啊對不對好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":663.885,"end":666.267,"text":"謝謝議員的質詢 下面請林思明委員質詢好 謝謝主席我們首先"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時28分）謝謝，我是不是可以邀請莊部長？"],["主席：莊部長，請。"],["李委員彥秀：朱副總裁、國發會的高副主委。"],["主席：副總裁、高副主委。"],["李委員彥秀：江次長。"],["主席：經濟部江次長。"],["李委員彥秀：農業部的杜常次。"],["主席：農業部常次。"],["李委員彥秀：今天這個議題從川普當選之後，我覺得我們跨部會在高層的會議，照理說應該有很多的討論，部長可不可以先回應我，你們有沒有在跨部會的會議中討論過這些議題？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，確實有。"],["李委員彥秀：幾次？"],["莊部長翠雲：行政院有一個臺美經貿工作小組的會議，因為幕僚作業是由經貿辦公室在做……"],["李委員彥秀：討論過幾次？"],["莊部長翠雲：次數經貿辦可能會比較清楚。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我再問一個問題，有可能我們會被列入The Dirty Fifteen，有可能但還不曉得，如果我們被列入的話，你覺得公不公平？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，當然我們從美國追求貿易……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，因為我時間不多，你覺得公不公平？"],["莊部長翠雲：國際間怎麼講公平或不公平？因為美國有美國的立場，我想這個部分我們會就追求貿易平衡有一些具體作法。"],["李委員彥秀：你不知道公不公平？你心裡有沒有想法？好，那我問央行副總裁，你覺得公平嗎？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我覺得貿易是要講究對等，而公平這個意義，其實基本上是比較難……"],["李委員彥秀：好，我再請問經濟部，公不公平？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，美國之所以要採取對等關稅，是利用關稅做為手段，最主要目的還是希望能夠減少貿易逆差，以及讓更多國外企業到美國投資。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，但是我們真的很骯髒嗎？把我們列入骯髒15國，我們真的很骯髒嗎？你覺得委不委屈？站在你的位子、立場，委不委屈？"],["江次長文若：第一個，這15國包括哪些國家，目前並不知道，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：好，不知道，但我個人覺得很委屈，因為這是我們共同拚產業、拚經濟創造出來的，是民間跟政府一起努力的結果，我個人會覺得很委屈，但我很遺憾你們說不出「委屈」兩個字。好，假設最壞狀況，我要請問部長，如果我們真的被列入骯髒15國，我們會不會跟其他14國聯合起來跟WTO申訴？部長還是經貿辦事處回答我，有沒有這樣的劇本？我覺得接下來各式各樣的狀況都可能發生，加拿大跟墨西哥事前也跟川普做了談判，後來他們還是被突襲了，我們有沒有各式各樣版本的準備？假使我們真的被列入骯髒15國，我們會不會跟其他14個國家向WTO申訴？有沒有這樣的準備，誰可以回答我？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，我是行政院經貿辦。針對這個議題，我們現在不排除，但我們需要評估4月2號所看到的關稅結果，才會通盤思考。"],["李委員彥秀：啊？才要通盤檢討，你沒有版本嗎？一件事情最好、最壞都有可能發生的狀況，你沒有版本，要到時候才會知道嗎？剛才你回答鍾佳濱委員說美國可以進口最大宗的物資，你們現在才要盤點，我覺得很訝異，哪些東西可以進口來平衡我們跟美國貿易順差的部分，早就應該知道要怎麼處理，如果還要4個月才可以盤點，那我覺得你們前面開的會，對不起，叫做「白開」，顯然你們跟美國沒有辦法談判啊！談判就是要有東西拿來換、拿來做籌碼，我有什麼，他有什麼，談的結果有可能聚焦，大家可以接受，如果是像回答前一位委員質詢說的還要4個月才知道平衡貿易順差有哪些項目，我跟你講，你一定準被納入15國之一！我這樣講不過分、合理，因為這是談判過程中的標準ABC，所以……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，行政院臺美經貿工作小組的開會其實是非常密集，那對於方案……"],["李委員彥秀：開會非常密集，我相信……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們都有研擬，不會……"],["李委員彥秀：有劇本？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會等到4月2號宣布的時候，才去討論後面的東西……"],["李委員彥秀：那剛剛幹嘛回答人家說要4個月？照理說，你現在都已經知道有哪些項目可以平衡貿易順差，所以其實不用4個月，你現在應該非常清楚才對。好，部長，我要問另外一個問題，我非常遺憾你們在糊弄立法院。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們不太了解4個月……"],["李委員彥秀：請問，我們今年對美的貿易順差，你預估大概會是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分……"],["李委員彥秀：去年美國是739億美元，今年會有多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：……進出口值。"],["李委員彥秀：有預估吧？如果接下來每一年都還是750、800、900、1,000億，我們當然很高興，站在產業的立場、稅收的立場，我們很高興，但是在跟美國的談判，川普接下來三年半之內，你要有各式各樣手法的準備，所以今年你有沒有預估貿易順差是多少？誰可以、應該回應我？經貿辦？今年到底應該是多少，有沒有預估過？沒有？不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：還是跟委員報告，行政院臺美經貿工作小組都有各種方案，也提到……"],["李委員彥秀：都不能講？"],["莊部長翠雲：貿易平衡是互相追求的目標，我們也會……"],["李委員彥秀：是，我同意，我也支持……"],["莊部長翠雲：擴大對美國進口，那這個數值就會變嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：好，我知道，部長你還是沒有回應我，我支持軍購，支持採買黃小玉，支持採購能源，今年不管買什麼東西，到底可以平衡多少貿易順差，你們有沒有一個預估數字？你要買這些我都不反對，買能源、軍購、黃小玉、農產品，央行講的我都支持，那你的目標是多少？數字是多少？有沒有數字出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們的方向很確定，但是很多事情是要在談判的時候大家再來談，是吧？"],["李委員彥秀：好的，不能講。我接下來再問兩個問題，經貿辦應該很清楚，經濟部也應該回應我。雖然台積電到美國設廠，但也不是這兩年馬上就可以出口生產，而台積電的複合成長率，未來兩、三年還是高達44%到46%，也就是台積電還是持續賺錢，代表著我們跟美國的貿易順差會持續加大，那要買什麼？接下來這幾年怎麼去控制我們的貿易順差？有誰可以回應我？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，所以台積電現在已經開始全球布局，它也到其他地方……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，我知道它全球布局，但是我從媒體、新聞報導得知，接下來這幾年，它的成長率還是在44%到46%，數字擺在眼前，川普還有三年，所以你們平衡貿易順差的手段是什麼？"],["江次長文若：我們必須加大對美的採購。"],["李委員彥秀：採購什麼？農產品、黃小玉，臺灣就二千三百多萬人，吃也吃不了這麼多，軍備我也沒有反對，3%我也支持，3%是一千多億，我個人可以支持，當然各政黨還要再討論，但是我們現在的貿易順差距離平衡也還有一段數字，包括要達到川普的目標──軍購達10%、739億，相當是二兆多，即便我們買3%的軍購，也才一千多億，數字差距還很大，所以我們今天才安排這個專案報告，但對不起，我聽不到什麼可以平衡的具體內容，以及你們有什麼手段，包括剛剛回答前一位委員的質詢，要買哪些大宗經濟產業來平衡順差，還要4個月評估，這樣我就很懷疑，我們怎麼去跟人家談判？我白白站在這邊質詢，但是聽不到任何答案，假設最壞的狀況，我們被列為骯髒15國之一，我們有沒有跟其他國家一起做好準備，有沒有溝通？這是不是劇本之一？跟其他14國一起向WTO申訴，有沒有這樣的劇本存在？誰可以回應我？有沒有討論過？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：現在針對每一個國家因應美國這些政策的作為，我們都有在掌握，畢竟大家跟美國的雙邊關係……"],["李委員彥秀：那有沒有跟他們聯繫過？他們會怎麼做，你們清楚嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們看到有一些國家是展開制裁，有一些評估做自主調整，我們都有持續掌握這些國家的因應方式。"],["李委員彥秀：那和其他14國的聯合申訴，有沒有可能作這樣的思考？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們實際上不知道這15國會是哪些國家，所以我們現在……"],["李委員彥秀：你不知道，但可以猜得出來嗎？看數字就可以猜得出來嘛！我也不知道，但坐在這個位子不知道，那也很奇怪，對不對？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-5","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","林思銘","賴惠員","李坤城","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","許宇甄","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","葉元之","邱志偉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","鄭正鈐"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、國家發展\n委員會劉主任委員鏡清、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「因應美國川普政府對等關稅\n策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單，我國政府財經相關單位因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00001"}}},{"id":"159693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159693","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900a51bad5a0dedb2331e62e9fce1db2a031f25d2de176b75bc3edf8563874a00ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:48:42 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謝謝部長"},{"start":154.008,"end":167.871,"text":"好那我們就來談一下我們文化部這邊被大規模且不合理的煽動的這個情況之下我們為了相關文化發展及宣傳很焦慮的時候其實很多的文化人卻背負著討飯要飯的這個罵名本席真的覺得非常的心疼非常的難過部長您認為"},{"start":174.553,"end":201.228,"text":"當申請文化部的補助我們依循著政策及國家發展的方向製作相關影視音作品這是對的嗎這是我們依循著國家政策跟國家發展方向來製作影視音作品然後我們申請文化部的補助這個方向是對的嗎一定要做因為很多產業必須靠我們政府的一些政策還有一些經費的補助其實我們補助的是整個產業啦"},{"start":203.306,"end":215.377,"text":"對 但是文化部呢你們部長您認為文化部是應該只作為資源分配者不負責把關還是應該要有文化相關制定的這個方向有方針才是對的"},{"start":217.133,"end":242.107,"text":"基本上我們是一個言論很自由的地方我們不會特別限制送來的題材申請的題材我們嚴格限制要哪一種但是我們會從送來題材裡面挑選比較有國際性的比較商業在文化上比較深度的對於文化部來講我們不會訂條文但是我們會朝著我們希望的一個文化走向來做選擇部長針對"},{"start":244.248,"end":265.06,"text":"國民黨籍某立委說 受到很多文化部的檢舉案就說你們只要是不按照這個意識形態就不給補助 這個部長您說明一下其實我必須憑良心講這是胡說八道我自己經歷過一個戒嚴時代所有的輔導金 所有的評審都可以作弊有關說 我都經歷過當評審"},{"start":267.199,"end":286.126,"text":"到了後來2000年政黨輪替慢慢走向自由的時候我必須告訴你連我都不知道哪一部戲被選上我完全授權給評審評審選完送到我那邊來我看到那一刻我才知道是誰被選上中間完全沒有關說完全沒有壓力所以"},{"start":287.087,"end":297.704,"text":"說我們文化部會意識形態的控制是沒有了解台灣社會如何從一個戒嚴黨國體制走到一個多麼自由的社會"},{"start":299.444,"end":318.622,"text":"對 所以說針對這位立委這樣的說法是完全不正確的完全用想像的這邊其實本席要強調就是說文化部的這個經費補助其實跟很多的地方活動及地方再造是有關的那我們補助重點文化產業國家語言這個發展是我們一直在努力的目標"},{"start":319.403,"end":331.937,"text":"我們要把需要國家力量扶植的文化產業把對於國家文化有熱忱的文化人我們要去扶植他我們要去鼓勵他我們要去支持他但是說成是要犯賊這是非常非常傷人的"},{"start":334.4,"end":360.998,"text":"接下來還是要討論關於我們預算的部分我們文化外交的部分部長我相信你們對我們之前我們對文化部我們這些相關的文化外交運動外交我們把視為我們重要的軟實力這個你也很認同所以你很致力很努力的在推展我們也希望透過文化的交流讓國際間看到我們台灣的活力我們台灣的創造力包容力一起展現我們民族的底蘊"},{"start":364.4,"end":388.348,"text":"很大的好評我們做的像這個珍珠奶茶雞排的小徽章是深受各國選手的喜愛這就是我們文化外交可愛溫暖又吸引人的地方那我們本來文化部呢預計在114年8月在大阪辦理的這個台灣藝文系列的展演呢9月份也會參加全球最大的新媒體藝術節就是在奧地利的靈芝電子藝術節"},{"start":391.584,"end":407.297,"text":"本席想要請教說那這些文化外交的活動我們會不會因為預算被煽動有所影響因為我知道說外交部跟文化部是兩大完全被刪除宣傳費的重災戶那這個相關的預算被煽動之後我們"},{"start":412.521,"end":421.95,"text":"相關的這些活動會不會有所影響還有我們文化部轄下的博物館114年有沒有安排到國外展覽規劃然後被這些山東預算而影響的"},{"start":424.037,"end":442.482,"text":"我分兩個重點來講如果我們大阮世博要到日本去我們本來有編個大概兩千萬的那個沒宣費那兩千萬被刪掉之後我們就整個的宣傳片沒有其實沒宣費被刪除這件事情使得我們每件活動"},{"start":443.382,"end":463.954,"text":"都沒辦法宣傳這才是很重要因為你活動辦下去沒有人知道那這個很嚴重譬如文化幣我們希望更多人知道可是我沒有錢宣傳文化幣所以整個以前我們編的預算編在交流師要出國去補助很多人住村或者表演團體出國"},{"start":465.575,"end":491.248,"text":"其實那個錢說了很心酸大概都一二十萬一二十萬就這個錢你幫我一三兩千萬的話我這些團都出不去了那大阪師伯我不能宣傳了那林佳龍部長也很可憐因為他是外交部就他都不能出國他來找我們的意思就是說我們也想用兩個部的力量看能不能把這個活動做得比較多一點人知道"},{"start":492.128,"end":507.296,"text":"我們兩個在討論的時候都在說 你有沒有錢我也有沒有錢你可不可以多出一點你不覺得兩個這麼大的部門只是去國外做個活動要這麼可憐到互相說你可不可以多出一點這就是我其實一直在覺得這麼一點點錢都不給我們的話"},{"start":509.477,"end":527.009,"text":"那我們台灣的文化本來你看看去年它就已經在國外已經開花結果了表演團體 文學 各種藝術它已經開花結果了為什麼在這個時候你再多給我們一點點都不會為過何況你把我刪掉 刪得比去年還少那這就是重點了"},{"start":527.878,"end":556.283,"text":"那這些受影響的這些部分呢我們除了剛剛部長您說的可能會找企業來協助對我覺得這個時候我們就只好靠一些民間的力量譬如說這次大阪世博民間就發起一個是台灣的館就是我覺得台灣的民間社會是最可愛的當我們不行的時候他們可能會站出來幫忙我剛剛前面已經解釋了我們出國的錢去找企業贊助"},{"start":557.803,"end":580.886,"text":"那個車 飛機票那一刻我一方面很心酸一方面我覺得還好我們有民間力量 也很感動對 謝謝部長本席這邊要強調就是說其實預算的合理刪減對部會是有鞭策的效果但是我們現在面對的是說不合理的刪減其實也是對我們文化人很不合理的這個批評跟待遇這個部分我也希望文化部你們要堅持"},{"start":582.047,"end":607.507,"text":"繼續努力我們一起努力一起打拼那接下來我還要關心的這個部分也是因為預算被刪了我們本來預計在台南這個首府大學他退場之後我們要把他做為一個典藏中心但是現在這個一億人全數遭刪除那相信也是影響未來藏品這個空間的規劃跟安排因為我們這個典藏是本來是要來收藏本土的作品那現在這個預算被刪了之後我們後續我們要如何來持續這個相關的計畫"},{"start":611.35,"end":633.154,"text":"謝謝委員問這個問題其實長期以來文化部都有典藏的不夠的問題因為文化部有非常多博物館關市台南就有文學館歷史博物館那我們本來就不夠所以我們要蓋在首府大學是一個聯合典藏中心希望蓋一個很大的聯合典藏中心把原來不夠的地方可以補足那台南國家美術館成立關市"},{"start":637.735,"end":666.478,"text":"陳承波的後代就捐了兩千件東西給我們可是他捐不出來因為我們沒有地方可以放嘛所以你可以想像民間這麼多人願意捐這麼珍貴的東西給我們我們一個國家一個文化部竟然拿不出一個典藏中心去接納那我們編了一億這一億只夠我們剛開始規劃到啟動可能還要好幾年才做好你把我一億刪掉之後就表示我這件事情又要再等一年"},{"start":667.279,"end":695.155,"text":"那我覺得不是不能刪預算是要知道那個每一筆預算它的目的是什麼它的用處在哪裡它會影響很深遠你把我刪掉了看起來只是一個錢但它會影響到我怎麼去那你整個計畫都延宕啦你後面的規劃都沒有辦法延續下去一定是啊所以我們現在只能在現有的那個場館裡面或者我們去幫助民間他們去收藏我們編一點預算幫他去繼續保存就是只能這樣做"},{"start":695.575,"end":695.595,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時42分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：陳委員，你好！"],["陳委員秀寳：部長好！其實講到預算的部分，我就覺得很心疼，也覺得部長真的很辛苦，也很無奈，這個等一下我們再來討論。","這邊想先請教部長，有關赴中演藝工作者的指引，什麼時候會提供？其實近年來屢屢發生臺灣的演藝工作者在中國的網路平臺配合發布中國統戰圖文，本席相信臺灣的民眾會很希望、也會很支持文化部做出指引，所以希望文化部可以給我們大概什麼時候會有明確指引發布的時間，讓赴中的演藝工作者有所依循？"],["李部長遠：基本上，過去我們不會針對特定的對象做出任何規定，我們是配合陸委會本身有一個對於去中國的演藝人員的規範，經過這一波下來之後，發現那些規範可能不夠了，所以我們最近有從文化部的角度擬了好幾條建議給陸委會，包括去中國發展的藝人如果參加他們的晚會等等，在那個晚會中做出貶抑臺灣或是對我們不利的……"],["陳委員秀寳：就是不要有不當的發言。"],["李部長遠：對，就像這種情況會變得更具體。有些商業活動有沒有附帶條件需要講我是中國人、臺灣是中國的一部分，商業活動裡面有沒有這個附帶條件，我們對這個事情會比過去更積極一點。"],["陳委員秀寳：就是會比較明確一點，本席建議文化部在指引中可以很明確的點出違法樣態，讓相關人員知道什麼樣的行為是違反兩岸人民關係條例，也讓相關的從業者知道哪些行為是有疑慮的，所以現在文化部已經在研擬了？"],["李部長遠：是，已經很具體了。"],["陳委員秀寳：大概什麼時候會發布？"],["李部長遠：我們會配合陸委會，因為我們最近一直在談的條文更具體，譬如我們的行政調查是跟著陸委會走，文化部沒有調查權，所以我們要跟陸委會一起做。"],["陳委員秀寳：就是配合陸委會？"],["李部長遠：對，我們會配合它，然後關於條文的修正，我們也會提供我們的意見，大概是這樣。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長。我們來談一下文化部被大規模且不合理刪凍的情況，我們為了相關文化發展及宣傳很焦慮的時候，其實很多文化人卻背負著討飯、要飯這個罵名，本席真的覺得非常心疼，也非常難過。部長，你認為申請文化部的補助依循著政策及國家發展的方向製作相關影視音作品，這是對的嗎？依循著國家政策和國家發展方向來製作影視音作品，申請文化部的補助，這個方向是對的嗎？"],["李部長遠：一定要做，因為很多產業必須靠政府的一些政策，還有一些經費的補助，其實我們補助的是整個產業。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，你認為文化部應該只作為資源分配者，不負責把關，還是應該要有文化相關制定的方向，有方針才是對的？"],["李部長遠：基本上，我們是一個言論很自由的地方，不會特別限制送來申請的題材，或是嚴格限制要哪一種，但是我們會從送來的題材裡面挑選比較有國際性、商業性或在文化上比較深度的。對於文化部來講，我們不會訂條文，但是會朝著我們希望的文化走向來選擇。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，針對國民黨籍某立委說收到很多文化部的檢舉案，關於你們只要不按照意識形態就不給補助的事情，請部長說明一下。"],["李部長遠：其實我必須憑良心講，這是胡說八道。我自己經歷過戒嚴時代，所有的輔導金、所有的評審都可以作弊或關說，我都經歷過、擔任過評審，後來到了2000年政黨輪替慢慢走向自由的時候，我必須告訴你，連我都不知道哪一部戲被選上。我完全授權給評審，評審選完送到我那邊來，我看到的那一刻才知道是誰被選上，中間完全沒有關說，完全沒有壓力，所以有人說文化部會以意識形態來控制，是沒有瞭解臺灣社會如何從戒嚴黨國體制走到多麼自由的社會。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以這位立委這樣的說法是完全不正確的？"],["李部長遠：完全用想像的。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實本席要強調的是，文化部的經費、補助與很多地方活動及地方再造有關，補助重點文化產業、國家語言發展是我們一直在努力的目標，對於需要國家力量扶植的文化產業，對於國家文化有熱忱的文化人，我們要去扶植他，我們要去鼓勵他，我們要去支持他，但是被說成要飯是非常傷人的。我接下來還是要討論關於預算的部分，在文化外交，把文化部這些相關的文化外交、運動外交視為我們重要的軟實力，我相信你也很認同，所以你很致力、很努力的在推展，我們也希望透過文化交流，讓國際間看到臺灣的活力、創造力、包容力以及展現民主的底蘊。過去我們在巴黎的文化奧運得到很大的好評，我們做的珍珠奶茶、雞排小徽章深受各國選手喜愛，這就是文化外交可愛、溫暖又吸引人的地方。","文化部本來預計114年8月在大阪辦理臺灣藝文系列展演，9月份也會參加全球最大的新媒體藝術節，也就是奧地利林茲電子藝術節。本席想要請教這些文化外交活動，會不會因為預算被刪凍而有所影響？我知道外交部和文化部是兩大完全被刪除宣傳費的重災戶，相關的預算被刪凍之後，這些活動會不會有所影響？還有文化部轄下的博物館，114年有沒有安排到國外展覽的規劃因被刪凍預算而影響的？"],["李部長遠：我分兩個重點來講，如果要到日本大阪世博，我們本來有編列大概2,000萬的媒宣費，2,000萬被刪掉之後，整個宣傳變成沒有了。其實媒宣費被刪除這件事情使得我們每一件活動都沒辦法宣傳，這才是很重要的，因為活動辦下去，沒有人知道很嚴重，譬如文化幣，我們希望讓更多人知道，可是我們又沒有錢宣傳文化幣。以前我們的預算編在交流司要用在出國補助，很多人駐村或者表演團體出國，其實說了很心酸，那個錢大概都一、二十萬，你把我一刪2,000萬的話，這些團都出不去了，大阪世博也不能宣傳了。林佳龍部長也很可憐，因為他是外交部，結果都不能出國，他也有來找我們，我們想用兩個部的力量看能不能把這個活動做得比較多一點人知道。我們兩個在討論的時候都在說你有沒有錢、我有沒有錢，你可不可以多出一點。你不覺得兩個這麼大的部門，只是去國外做個活動要可憐到互相說，你可不可以多出一點。我一直覺得這麼一點點錢都不給我們的話，臺灣的文化本來去年在國外已經開花結果了，表演團體、文學等各種藝術已經開花結果了，在這個時候再多給我們一點點都不為過，何況是把我刪掉，刪到比去年還少，這就是重點了。"],["陳委員秀寳：這些受影響的部分，除了剛剛部長說的可能會找企業來協助……"],["李部長遠：對，這個時候我們就只好靠一些民間的力量，譬如這一次大阪世博民間就發起一個臺灣館，我覺得臺灣的民間社會是最可愛的，當我們不行的時候，他們可能會站出來幫忙。我剛才前面已經解釋了，我們出國的錢是去找企業贊助飛機票，那一刻我一方面很心酸，一方面又覺得還好我們有民間的力量。"],["陳委員秀寳：也很感動。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長。本席要強調，預算的合理刪減對部會是有鞭策的效果，但我們現在面對的是不合理的刪減，其實這也是對文化人很不合理的批評和待遇，這個部分我也希望文化部要堅持繼續努力，我們一起努力、一起打拚。","接下來我還要關心的這個部分也是因為預算被刪，本來預計臺南首府大學退場之後要把它作為典藏中心，但是現在這1億元全數遭刪除，我相信也會影響未來藏品空間的規劃和安排，因為這個典藏室本來是要用來收藏本土作品，現在這個預算被刪了之後，我們後續要如何持續相關的計畫？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員問這個問題，其實長期以來，文化部都有典藏空間不夠的問題，因為文化部有非常多的博物館，光是臺南就有文學館、歷史博物館，我們的空間本來就不夠，所以我們希望在首府大學蓋一個很大的聯合典藏中心，可以把原來不夠的地方補足。臺南國家美術館成立，光是陳澄波的後代就捐了2,000件東西給我們，可是捐不出來，因為我們沒有地方可以放，所以你可以想像，民間這麼多人願意捐這麼珍貴的東西給我們，但一個國家、一個文化部竟然拿不出一個典藏中心去接納。我們編了1億，這1億只夠我們剛開始規劃到啟動，可能還要好幾年才做好，把我們1億刪掉之後，就表示這件事情又要再等一年。我覺得不是不能刪預算，而是要知道每一筆預算的目的是什麼……"],["陳委員秀寳：對，它的用處在哪裡。"],["李部長遠：它會影響很深遠，把這刪掉了，看起來只是一個錢，但它會影響到我們怎麼去……"],["陳委員秀寳：你們整個計畫都延宕了啊！後面的規劃都沒有辦法延續下去了。"],["李部長遠：一定是啊！所以我們現在只能在現有的場館裡面，或者我們幫助民間收藏，我們編一點預算幫他們繼續保存，最後只能這樣做。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，您的回答就是我們可能明年審預算的時候再有機會去爭取。本席是非常支持文化部，你們要持續地來爭取相關典藏的經費，因為臺灣的藝文工作者、創作者都需要、也值得更好的典藏環境，這些收藏品也是見證文化發展的重要關鍵，這個部分也希望文化部繼續努力。"],["李部長遠：是的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秀寳委員，部長請回。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時54分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。我們現在接著請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9008dc3e917f23ab18d7648dfe0a0275fc51f25d2de176b75bc1a088aa3d2b9e73c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:36:48 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非常感謝委員成為委員剛剛所說的其實事實上目前那個整個少子女化的問題我想是一個多面向我跟委員報告有一篇2000年那個population study最重要就是說是要多元最有效的其實是性別平等第二個是家庭工作平等第三個就是委員您所說公托最後才是津貼那這是要多元"},{"start":194.477,"end":221.391,"text":"那現在委員剛剛所說的事實上是有關於公托的部分那這個其實從過去蔡英文總統到現在賴清德總統也都持續在推動這一個我們的國家希望工程那這個部分有關於公托公托的那個政策我現在是希望就是說公托的部分就托嬰中心的部分我覺得應該是還要還要再加強量能的部分還必須要強化目前覺得是不足的所以你看如果說今天年輕人他結婚他"},{"start":222.071,"end":240.638,"text":"你不能犧牲其中一方留在家裡面照顧孩子他也願意回到職場去工作可是因為孩子沒人照顧所以我覺得這個托嬰中心的部分我覺得應該還要再加強那個我們其實之前在前瞻我們現在目前公共托嬰的話到114年2月的時候我們全國已經設置是498"},{"start":242.879,"end":265.16,"text":"那現在目前收多是1.6那現在目前我跟委員報告另外有那個另外94家我們現在目前在籌設當中希望這94家能夠提供3000個名額那這個部分當然我們現在目前這個部分剛剛我想王玉民委員還有陳金輝委員他也非常關心這裡面但是這裡面有介紹一個問題就是說我們補貼了地方像那個之前也跟委員去"},{"start":266.641,"end":292.57,"text":"這個部分也地方政府那邊我們會希望他們能夠趕快加速這邊的推動時程這個具體的部分是不是請副署長代理署長跟委員報告一下跟委員報告總體全國的數量如同剛才所說目前國內一共有498處的公托預計還有94家在投射當中後續的話以剛才委員所提到像彰化的情形的話"},{"start":293.31,"end":310.906,"text":"彰化目前的公托加數確實是相對比較少但是我們所掌握的是彰化陸續已經有在申請中那我們有在補助的大概還有十多間那這個後續的話我們都會在資源上面我們會來協助彰化這邊有部件的需要我們都會盡量來支持"},{"start":313.028,"end":325.602,"text":"我希望就是說我們應該是要建制公共化的設施其實你給他很多的津貼那他現在找不到人照顧這個孩子出生之後找不到人照顧就我覺得"},{"start":327.164,"end":354.864,"text":"應該是要建置很好的一些完善的設施沒錯讓年輕人敢結婚敢生小孩要不然結婚之後他結婚了那我生孩子生下來之後沒人照顧這個也是一個問題那我想請教就是說我們每一年的這個建置總公共機制其實我們也看到這個從衛福部教育部其實每一年也都補助很多"},{"start":357.305,"end":376.39,"text":"從2019年51.5億到2024年到155億其實這六年當中成長將近三倍之多我覺得好像也沒有對於少子女化好像有一些緩解的作用"},{"start":378.03,"end":391.643,"text":"另外就是說我們也看到這個政策你一直在推動可是這個生育率好像也沒有提升好像也感覺好像是越來越低生育率越來越低所以我覺得說這個議題應該是要通盤去檢討"},{"start":395.327,"end":409.194,"text":"也許我需要有一個這個好好的完善的這個托嬰中心公托或者是這個托育中心那另外我也需要住的地方嘛"},{"start":410.615,"end":431.269,"text":"就剛剛講的其他國家也許你生一胎我可能給你這個社會住宅他的那個資格就比較容易能夠住進這個社會住宅那個費用可能負擔的費用可能更低那如果生到第三胎那我是不是完全我就不需要有這個租金呢"},{"start":432.81,"end":458.21,"text":"我覺得應該也可以朝著這個方向去努力甚至你生越多那未來幾年後我是不是可以這個社會住宅我可以便宜賣給你我覺得這個也是可以朝這個方向去努力而不是我覺得我們政策推動的很多補助的我相信不論是地方政府或中央政府都一直在有一些津貼補貼生一胎補助多少其實我覺得這個也無感"},{"start":459.071,"end":482.313,"text":"你要讓年輕人我生一胎補助一萬生一胎補助三萬其實對他來講無感啊我一個孩子出來我花費的更多啊所以乾脆我不結婚不生或者是在一起我也不生所以我覺得應該是要去通盤去做一個檢討那當然就是說由行政院這邊來主責我也覺得很好可是應該也要有一個"},{"start":483.234,"end":512.332,"text":"就是一個相關的一個主責單位不論是衛福部也好 國發會也好或其他單位我覺得這應該都是跨部會的不是單一的一個問題而且是一個跨部會的問題而且你知道現在年輕人我剛剛講的 不論是這個孩子生出來可能要花費很多另外就是說住的問題現在年輕人要買房子也是非常的困難你看房價在這幾年 飆漲跟前幾年這個比例"},{"start":514.265,"end":526.481,"text":"這個漲的幅度都四五十百分之四五十一個年輕人的這個薪水怎麼可能買得起房子所以你又要讓他結婚又要讓他生小孩我覺得應該也要從這各個面向去做一個討論沒錯"},{"start":528.904,"end":548.239,"text":"委員所說的確實是完全符合這個原則那我跟委員報告委員剛剛所關心的住宅那個部分雖然不是我的主責但是我下午董建宏次長他就會來拜訪我我們談一些我們住宅的部分那委員的意見我覺得非常好就您剛剛說三胎以上是不是有特別的一些優惠等等這些這個我會帶給他也請內政部趕快來研議謝謝"},{"start":552.782,"end":570.367,"text":"好那市長我再一個問題再請教就是說我們現在的這個幼兒園老師其實有的幼兒園老師一個可能要照顧這個一二十個小朋友其實變成說他是高工時然後高危險"},{"start":572.168,"end":591.485,"text":"那我认为就是说整个这个环境整个幼儿的这个教育的环境应该也要让老师能够愿意投入这样的一个教育的环境那让老师不会觉得说被剥削或者是高工时高危险的这个职场"},{"start":592.505,"end":610.309,"text":"我覺得說這個應該衛福部這邊應該也要去正視這些幼兒園老師的一些職場職場的工作的狀況包委員那個指教非常正確可是這個因為幼兒園是屬於教育部的權責這可能要請教育部來嚴寧好"},{"start":612.95,"end":641.905,"text":"好那再來就是說我想請教就是前幾天就有關那個凱凱凱凱案沒錯那目前也有很多人就是說針對這個虐兒虐童這個行者應該是要加重那目前也有6萬多人就是有這個婦役有連署那我想請教就是說衛福部針對這一部分你們未來你們的回應是怎樣那你們未來會怎樣朝什麼樣的方向去做"},{"start":642.145,"end":665.587,"text":"包委那個我想這對於虐童就像我們剛剛說的在一個少子女化的一個時代其實不光少子女化每一個小朋友都是我們的心肝寶貝我們一定生下來我們就是要好好來聽要顧是任何的虐童這個基本上都是零容忍而且是絕對不應該那我也知道現在目前社會有一個有一個期待就是要加重刑責那關於這個部分我們也跟法務部來做相關研擬這邊我是不是請秀園司長來跟"},{"start":670.31,"end":694.828,"text":"現行法律規定有兩個地方一個是兒權法一二條他已經有針對對兒少不當對待駕駐騎行二分之一是有這個規定另外在刑法的286條法務部也提出了一個修正版本那個地方也有那至於說後續是不是還要再做討論那我想我們這個部分會緊密的跟法務部做一些討論"},{"start":697.17,"end":709.917,"text":"好那因為時間的關係我就先到這邊那真的少子女化這真的是國安議題真的要非常非常的重視喔要不然真的逐年那個生育率真的是逐年一直在下降好的好感謝委員謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝次長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":870,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時36分）謝謝主席，我們請呂次長。"],["主席：請呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：委員早安。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長好。次長，今天所有委員都非常關心少子女化的議題，大家會覺得這真的是一個國安議題，因為我們也看到，原本認為去年龍年的新生兒應該、可能比以前再多一些，可是看到的結果是完全沒有，即雖然是龍年，新生兒也沒有比較多，所以我覺得未來新生兒的出生率，應該是會越來越少。","所以我非常認同剛剛王委員所提，他一直希望應該要有更高的層級來處理少子女化的議題。我記得在2017年那時候有成立一個少子化辦公室，後來好像就沒有再繼續運作，就是回到行政院這一邊；就算是回到行政院這一邊，應該也要有一個主責單位。剛剛次長有特別提到，這是由陳時中政委來主持，的確，雖然這是跨部會的，也應該要有一個主責單位，要不然就像剛剛在問你們的時候，可能也會有一些答不出來的狀況。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教次長，現在我在地方上碰到很多新手爸爸媽媽，他們在懷孕的時候就開始預約托嬰中心，可是托嬰中心跟他講，可能還要再等，因為前面排隊的人很多，前面可能有四、五十個人在排隊，所以先生會覺得，太太生產完之後，可能太太就沒辦法工作而直接留在家裡面照顧小孩。所以我認為，如果你要解決這樣一個問題，其實面向有很多，就像我們之前一直在講0到6歲國家一起養，從幼兒園開始，我們現在有準公共化或者是非營利幼兒園、公托，我覺得托嬰這一部分應該也是現在年輕人考量的，如果你願意讓他有更好的公共設施，讓他願意生，但現在托嬰中心的部分其實我認為是不足的，不知道未來我們衛福部這邊怎麼去強化這樣一個公共設施？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員。誠如委員剛剛所說的，事實上，目前整個少子女化的問題，是一個多面向的問題。我跟委員報告，2000年時有一篇population study，最重要的就是要多元，最有效的其實是性別平等，第二個是家庭工作平等，第三個就是委員您所說的公托，最後才是津貼。這些是要多元，像委員剛剛所說的事實上是有關於公托的部分，其實從過去蔡英文總統到現在賴清德總統也都持續在推動這個國家希望工程，有關於公托政策，我想是不是請副署長……"],["黃委員秀芳：我現在希望公托的部分，就是托嬰中心的部分，我覺得應該是還要再加強。"],["呂次長建德：量能的部分都還必須要強化。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，目前覺得是不足的，所以你看如果今天年輕人結婚，不能犧牲其中一方留在家裡面照顧孩子吧！"],["呂次長建德：當然不行，對，沒錯！"],["黃委員秀芳：對啊！他也願意回到職場工作，可是因為孩子沒人照顧，所以我覺得托嬰中心的部分應該還要再加強，是不是可以……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，其實之前在前瞻，目前公共托育化到114年2月的時候，全國已經設置498處，現在收託是1.6萬，我跟委員報告，另外94家目前在籌設當中，希望這94家能夠提供3,000個名額。這個部分當然剛剛王育敏委員，還有陳菁徽委員也非常關心，但是這裡面有牽涉到一個問題就是說，我們補貼了地方，像之前也跟委員去……這個部分地方政府那邊，我們會希望他們能夠趕快加速推動時程，具體的部分是不是請代理署長跟委員報告一下。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，總體全國的數量如同剛才所述，目前國內一共有498處公托，預計還有94家在籌設當中。後續以剛才委員所提到像彰化的情形的話，彰化目前的公托家數確實是相對比較少，但是我們所掌握的是，彰化陸續已經有在申請中，我們有在補助的大概還有十多間，後續我們都會在資源上面來協助彰化這邊，有布建的需要我們都會儘量來支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我希望我們應該是要建置公共化的設施。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：即使你給他很多津貼，他現在孩子出生之後找不到人照顧，其實我覺得應該是要建置一些很好的完善設施，讓年輕人敢結婚、敢生小孩，要不然結婚之後，他結婚了，孩子生下來之後沒人照顧，這個也是一個問題。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，為了建置準公共機制，其實從衛福部、教育部每年也都補助很多，從2019年51.5億到2024年155億，其實這6年當中成長將近3倍之多，我覺得好像也沒有對於少子女化有一些緩解作用。另外，我們也看到這個政策一直在推動，可是生育率好像也沒有提升，感覺好像是生育率越來越低，所以我覺得這個議題應該是要通盤檢討，也許需要有一個好的、完善的托嬰中心、公托或者是托育中心，另外也需要住的地方嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：就剛剛講的，其他國家也許你生一胎，我可能給你社會住宅的資格，就比較容易能夠住進社會住宅，那個費用可能……"],["呂次長建德：比較便宜一點。"],["黃委員秀芳：負擔的費用可能更低。如果生到第3胎，那是不是可以完全就不需要有租金呢？我覺得應該也可以朝著這個方向去努力，甚至你生越多，未來幾年後是不是社會住宅可以便宜賣給你，我覺得也是可以朝這個方向去努力。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得我們政策推動很多，補助的部分，我相信不論是地方政府或中央政府都一直有一些津貼、補貼，生一胎補助多少，其實我覺得這個也無感，你要讓年輕人生一胎補助1萬、生一胎補助3萬，其實對他來講，無感啊！一個孩子出來花費的更多啊！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以乾脆我不結婚、不生，或者是在一起也不生，所以我覺得應該是要做通盤檢討。當然，由行政院這邊來主責，我覺得很好，可是應該也要有一個相關的主責單位，不論是衛福部也好、國發會也好或其他單位，我覺得這應該都是跨部會的，不是單一的問題，而且是一個跨部會的問題。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：而且你知道現在年輕人，我剛剛講的，不論是孩子生出來可能要花費很多，另外就是住的問題，現在年輕人要買房子也是非常困難。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：你看房價在這幾年飆漲跟前幾年相比，漲的幅度百分之四、五十，一個年輕人的薪水怎麼可能買得起房子？所以你又要讓他結婚，又要讓他生小孩，我覺得應該也要從各個面向去做討論。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，非常感謝委員。委員所說的確實完全是符合這個原則，我跟委員報告，委員剛剛所關心的住宅部分，雖然不是我的主責，但是下午董建宏次長就會來拜訪我，我們會談一些有關住宅的部分，委員的意見我覺得非常好，就是您剛剛說3胎以上是不是有特別的一些優惠等等這些，我會帶給他，也請內政部趕快來研議，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長，我再一個問題請教，就是說現在的幼兒園老師，其實有的幼兒園老師一個可能要照顧一、二十個小朋友，變成他是高工時、高危險。我認為整個幼兒的教育環境應該也要讓老師能夠願意投入這樣的教育環境，讓老師不會覺得被剝削，或者是高工時、高危險的職場，我覺得衛福部應該也要去正視這些幼兒園老師的職場工作狀況。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，委員的指教非常正確，可是因為幼兒園是屬於教育部的權責，這可能要請教育部來研擬。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，再來就是我想請教前幾天有關剴剴案嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯！"],["黃委員秀芳：目前也有很多人針對虐兒、虐童的刑責認為應該是要加重。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：目前也有六萬多人附議連署嘛！我想請教，衛福部針對這一部分你們未來的回應是怎樣？你們未來會朝什麼樣的方向做？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我想對於虐童就像我們剛剛說的，在一個少子女化的時代，其實不光少子女化，每一個小朋友都是我們的心肝寶貝，把他生下來，我們就是一定要好好疼愛他、照顧他，所以任何的虐童基本上都是零容忍，而且是絕對不應該。我們也知道現在目前社會有一個期待就是要加重刑責，關於這個部分我們也跟法務部來做相關研擬，是不是請秀鴛司長來跟委員報告？"],["張司長秀鴛：現行法律規定有兩個地方，一個是兒權法第一百十二條，已經有針對兒少不當對待加重其刑二分之一，是有這個規定。另外，在刑法第二百八十六條，法務部也提出了一個修正版本，那個地方也有。至於後續是不是還要再做討論，我們這個部分會緊密地跟法務部做一些討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為時間的關係，我就先到這邊，少子女化真的是國安議題，真的要非常、非常地重視。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：要不然生育率真的是逐年一直在下降當中，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：好的，感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝次長。","接續我們請劉建國召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},{"id":"159690","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159690","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9008314d583a985e4651e62e9fce1db2a031f25d2de176b75bc6283ac1051a9c2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:31:18 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講給農民高興 講給誰高興那都不是做事情的方式我對這個問題 我要來彭斯指揮副市長"},{"start":121.684,"end":147.454,"text":"你跟我們的鄉村基路你絕對要往區亂徵收依照那個面積要有多大包括公共設施要重新劃定下來沒有那個路消防車都進不去那個騎腳踏車才能進去這都我們面臨的問題衛生的環境非常差我們就是進步的國家我們一點在鄉村也不進步所以我告訴你第一"},{"start":148.564,"end":171.208,"text":"你要擺變這鄉村肌肉 你就要做一個器官蒸熟料跟這裡的人說 土地換土地你才有辦法成功 這第一步一定要有這樣的想法那我今天為什麼這麼講我們國土事務司長你們一定要配合尤其農業部他非常擔心農運團體講話或外農事長不用怕啦 台灣的土地還要很多"},{"start":176.189,"end":201.839,"text":"你要真的改造農村好就剛剛我講的第一步包括我們稍微講的基建要成立起來第二步我跟你講你現在看到幾個匯六都以外的那個交流道的地區或是中要聯絡的地區都是在鄉村區裡面你要去改變這個觀念現在這些人沒有錢"},{"start":205.034,"end":226.662,"text":"小地址大電農 那些都是做人看的一些有這樣的情形底下你應該在交流到那個地方要特別劃幾個地區跟鄉村區互相應用你才有辦法提升鄉村的韌性但是你現在看我們高速公路連絡重要的連絡道路都在農村區都不能動"},{"start":227.862,"end":247.732,"text":"等一下你要怎麼活啊?因為交通現在變成人生必須的共進你只要交通方便,大家都會延遇回來還有一點,人往高速跑,水往低速流你交通不便,他要去外國參加,還是要回家"},{"start":249.019,"end":266.13,"text":"他只有有賺錢的機會只要生活過得好很多人回來鄉村可以把都市的人口拿過來所以就換了一個大的錯誤都市計畫內的農業道路六都的農業都市計畫農業區都可以改為建築"},{"start":267.356,"end":286.541,"text":"鑑定商業用地溫泉跟土地要怎麼維修等一下等一下說講人口不夠哪裡不夠你沒有製造好的環境所以要過來這個要大膽嘗試要大刀剋武我不曉得聽了這幾句話你們鄉村長大你們的感受如何跟我講一下這樣我說的你聽得到嗎有清楚嗎"},{"start":294.091,"end":319.426,"text":"我沒有選擇,你也跟我說一下,大家不跟我說話,我沒有辦法判斷你這樣有選擇的時候,我都沒有在館裡去做這個沒有,我告訴你,當時你要協調,很多都是在農業部擋掉啦我按外公社委,我們十幾年的民意代表,這個問題常常存在彭副主委、胡處長"},{"start":321.497,"end":342.171,"text":"還有我們的副市長真的要去溝通協調不認輸幾十名沒有一次成功的以前還有農村再生還有地方創生但是這些都是電話死你真的改造農村你一定要想好策略農村改造就像都市的都更一樣"},{"start":343.837,"end":371.198,"text":"你可以各種狀況去設定如何跟生態配合這樣我們討論想不出來 做得出來我覺得彭副主委這個責任很重大我想你以建築師出身為什麼請你來當副主委這跟地方暢生 農村再生最重要土地的管理是在我們內政部國土管理室這邊所以三個要密切的配合才能把這個達成有沒有信心"},{"start":372.569,"end":394.484,"text":"我是很有信心啦我是很有信心,但是...大家一起密切配合,然後...真的要這樣,不然你不可以固定,綁手綁腳不敢大刀剋斧,你農村再...農村提升什麼改造農村都不好真的要用新的思維去做啊在這,國土計畫吧,再給我一下澳門農業縣85%"},{"start":400.726,"end":418.4,"text":"四山坡頂 阿堤丘返坡 我在這裡 我要特別跟農業部講你們那時候有一個 那個叫農水的什麼?蓋農社的那個 蓋農社 蓋農社 農村局農田水 水保署啦不是不是 農水署不是嗎?"},{"start":418.4,"end":420.161,"text":"蓋農社的鄉鎮啦 那不是你們在說的"},{"start":431.989,"end":455.077,"text":"農事的興建是我們去補啦,去補沒有啦,那是我們農業部裡面去補那是我們補喔,那是資源永續利用,那是我們發明啦不是資源永續利用,我現在在總科我看一看苗栗縣85%的三坡林,我們一塊地三千坪挖你們台北市的一公尺,十坪挖不去你說有比例嗎?這有公平嗎?"},{"start":459.211,"end":466.915,"text":"我覺得六都的市長也沒有什麼好他靠土地變更來賺錢的他一變更的話幾十億 幾十億的收入 那多好我們的鄉村其實叫做廢六 六都叫鄉村區"},{"start":474.414,"end":492.562,"text":"我常常在想苗栗縣的地方環境比較特殊,它是低區環坡,我一直在講。您好,我來做。成為一個低區環坡示範區,你看到美國高級社區的話,都是在低區環坡裡面這樣做出來。"},{"start":494.154,"end":510.749,"text":"你看鄉長澤就是在這樣地區環波做出來現在在山頂沒水、沒工人、沒人去做事一片荒蕪在那一邊你給人家報仇說怕農運團體抗爭沒水夠人家、沒米人家我們糧食生產過剩現在赤貢山頂沒人要去做"},{"start":518.567,"end":546.785,"text":"所以我在苗栗縣一直要推遲一個地區環保但是我發現本市長這裏有一條農舍用地應既行配置以農地之地界線及臨界道路那是北京的農舍改善你山坡地怎麼可以這樣規範再來要兼備叫人改善但特殊地形者中央並沒有定義什麼叫做特殊地形者"},{"start":547.742,"end":568.088,"text":"你來新的本領要帶動啦人把人已經地球環保做到很好地了外國都用地球環保是補貼捏你居然限制我們農民使用現在沒人敢,你越搞越晚還有農民耕種,還要種什麼食材要種,那都好笑,我要剪得漂亮高單價的東西不可以嗎"},{"start":571.828,"end":586.325,"text":"那當然可以啊可以啊 你們都整天在嘻嘻 只叫我們講漢字只叫我們不是啦市長我不是跟你計較啦 我已經摸了很多了嘛我一直在強調這一點 你們給我定義清楚"},{"start":588.052,"end":613.761,"text":"我們地方來頂頂自治法規我一家五十個一百個我有地方去開路水保都做得好你現在不用怕大家煩惱水保的問題自己的房子自己蓋水保它比誰還更重視你們都沒有煩惱一下排水系統都給你做得很好啊你為什麼這樣懷疑百姓感覺你們政府在搞限制啊你不要怕農營團體"},{"start":615.602,"end":626.773,"text":"現在農民整個財產都沒有你限制到多少錢我是很良心真心的講我現在農業部這一條我還未再圖出來你那個"},{"start":630.422,"end":659.284,"text":"農村農舍的興建尤其我們地區環坡我帶你去看真的很漂亮尤其苗栗特殊台北下來40分鐘就到苗栗30分鐘到每個地方去這個是最好失散人口的地區像我天天搭高鐵上來又回去很近你老爸用這個觀念你用全國統一的一個思想每一個地方的地理環境不一樣啊"},{"start":661.547,"end":669.997,"text":"董事長三坡地的這些我真的領工農村改造這個都要改變公民路來都沒錢"},{"start":671.585,"end":690.896,"text":"的確應該要因地制宜啦因為委員這苗栗比較多是散春嘛所以那個村落的狀態跟南部比如說那個昭偉這邊他們嘉義這邊就比較集村所以跟昭偉講給我多講一點他那邊也有那個地球環坡的山坡的地方你那邊是甚麼來的"},{"start":695.251,"end":722.319,"text":"你還憑什麼跟我闖瘓我現在說三句那邊但是這個我一定要改進我希望農業部要支持也希望國土署你們要喊我到岸就靠近路邊就要計算方針你整天都在想什麼我跟你講這個改造成功你要種什麼食材水果大家種的一定會變成農工隊出來把你地方弄得很漂亮"},{"start":723.732,"end":735.411,"text":"你們如果要跟我說要叫你們做,你們怕農運團裡面嗎?那些都沒有種田的人在講話,哪比在組織種田的?你們這個政府真的要改進,你剛才這個看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":739.726,"end":751.559,"text":"現在國土計畫法是各縣市政府按照地方的發展需求每五年可以同盤檢討那如果認為有必要的話可以去做相關的規劃因為我們地球環保障85%你來看就很漂亮"},{"start":755.083,"end":782.119,"text":"真的很漂亮你去的話 你想說在苗栗圍長好 到台北 到台中都會很近台灣就在掃紙化 去一個飯櫥 要賣什麼啊還是要做白粽子那個退休的地方 人家有錢人家要賣什麼 要賣什麼人在那邊端著豆豉的 讓給年輕人我們老老在這邊 要看身子坐著高鐵上去所以這就跟觀念大家不一樣要賣什麼人我們要想的我們要站在"},{"start":784.981,"end":796.259,"text":"國土長治久安的立場你國土長治久安你把山坡定給都市人禮拜一到禮拜五登峰久定他們在賺錢他們在台北"},{"start":799.038,"end":827.099,"text":"你把我鄉下禮拜六禮拜天給他們去散步看青山綠水啊我們得到什麼有啦 休閒農業你休閒農業 唉唷你輸不出錢啦這也是一種風險我們做散步地不可以搞得這樣適度的開花這涉及到國土保安啦這國家的國土保安的話不差這一塊啦我講真的啦環境會比原來保持得更好啊"},{"start":828.191,"end":841.582,"text":"你怎麼常常在國土保安我們要站在公平正義啦我這就叫做公平正義嘛我告訴你都市 都市內的農業區一直在改變 變更為自在區 商業區他們在賺錢 其他人要做農奴 去整理 整齊 再讓人家吃飯你為什麼不用這樣反悔"},{"start":854.005,"end":875.437,"text":"一個市委去判斷你都在顧主席人欸不然你整個越來越丟臉 越丟臉我主席管不了啦 抱歉你主席管不了 我跟你說怎麼整個衝就好了啦不然你這個保證叫我來做啦我真的講 觀念的市委要改變嘛我現在跟你說我們已經受到不公平的待遇了"},{"start":883.715,"end":910.119,"text":"啊你怎麼說這樣社會要公平啊就是不叫他農地都不要跟我辯農興都還好嗎那以前農地他現在怎麼可以變為自宅區、商業區去獨立、去暴力為什麼環境會差得那麼多為什麼會少數化所以我今天講你這個觀念沒辯鎂大家平等普通我只在問一句話你知道嗎"},{"start":913.226,"end":926.485,"text":"六都裡面的都市計畫類的農業區為什麼每一個人都在變不是天之教主啊我們都不是六都要人不是都市的農業區都要變"},{"start":928.598,"end":956.016,"text":"沒有,都市計畫地區如果是農業區要變,也有相關的規範我展要有相關的規範,你跟我講都在變我現在跟你講公平勝利嘛一樣的你幫我留下來重點,什麼都不能變大家公平你如果讓我這樣思維在講話我意思很不滿這一點所謂的鄉村區我現在跟你證明就是揮六度叫做鄉村區"},{"start":958.203,"end":980.52,"text":"你們都偏向有選票六都越多的地方你們越重視你們哪裡在關心鄉村區關心灰六都的我這個一定堅持這個是叫做不公平聲音國土保安大家都會去做一樣的國土保安六都跟灰六都的都要一樣你們只顧他們賺錢你為什麼要整個人都不顧"},{"start":987.608,"end":1001.606,"text":"怎么他们可以变我们都不能变连速度的利用都不可以还有一个是现在都市的环境会高把这一个开放出来自然的环境就降低了"},{"start":1003.116,"end":1030.11,"text":"臺灣不要那麼多米以前你糧食生產過剩了天天再講糧食安全以前的觀念帶來現在現在的糧食你們藝人成名多少你們外銷虧損多少你拿去你去做那個照明做了多少這個觀念要改啊不可以這樣稀稀地啊好不好 謝謝好我給你兩杯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時31分）主席好。首先有請農業部胡次長、國發會彭副主委，還有內政部國土管理署徐副署長。"],["主席：好，請以上幾位。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：委員早安。"],["陳委員超明：早安。第一個要請教胡次長，你以前住在哪裡？"],["胡次長忠一：委員是問我的故鄉？"],["陳委員超明：小時候。"],["胡次長忠一：臺南。"],["陳委員超明：臺南鄉下還是都市？"],["胡次長忠一：鄉下，我住善化。"],["陳委員超明：你住過四合院嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：我家是三合院，不是四合院。"],["陳委員超明：好，三合院。","彭副主委，你住過四合院嗎？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：我住過，因為……"],["陳委員超明：是不是真的要說喔！你是建築師出身……"],["彭副主任委員立沛：臺東我外公家是三合院。"],["陳委員超明：徐副署長呢？"],["徐副署長燕興：我住基隆。"],["陳委員超明：你是住在都市的嘛！"],["徐副署長燕興：基隆旁邊的七堵。"],["陳委員超明：喔，七堵。那你住過三合院或四合院嗎？","我為什麼會問這個問題？其實剛剛我們召委講的我非常肯定，而且很認同，跟我今天要問的都一樣。在村落裡面，以前的人都怕分家會丟面子，結果幾代一直傳下來，根本都沒辦法解決。所以你要提升鄉村韌性不是嘴巴說說就好，就像召委說的，大家都在空口說白話，說來讓農民高興或是誰高興，其實那都不是做事的方法。","針對這個問題，我要請教彭副主委和胡次長，第一，舊有的鄉村聚落絕對要用區段徵收，依照所需面積大小，包括公共設施都要重新劃定，不然道路太窄，消防車都進不去，騎腳踏車才能進去，這些都是我們面臨的問題，包括衛生環境非常差。我們說自己是進步的國家，在鄉村卻一點也不進步。所以我跟你說，第一點，要改變鄉村聚落就是要區段徵收，跟這些人說，土地換土地，你才有辦法成功。這是第一步，一定要有這樣的想法。","我今天為什麼這麼講？國土管理署徐副署長，你們一定要配合，尤其農業部非常擔心農運團體講話，說農村怎樣、怎樣，不用怕啦！臺灣的土地很多，你要真的改造農村、為農村好，我剛剛講的就是第一步。包括召委講的基金要處理起來。","第二步，我跟你講，你現在看到幾個非六都的交流道地區或是重要聯絡道路的地區都是在鄉村區裡面，你要去改變這個觀念。現在務農的人又不多，小地主、大佃農，務農都是做給人家看的！已經有一些這樣的情形了。你應該在交流道一帶特別劃幾個地區，跟鄉村區互相運用，才有辦法提升鄉村的韌性。但是現在高速公路、重要的聯絡道路都在農村區、都不能動，這樣要怎麼活化？","因為交通已經變成人生必需的工具，只要交通方便，大家都願意回來。還有一點，大家都說「人往高處爬、水往低處流」，只要交通方便，不管他要去外面工作還是要返鄉，只要有賺錢的機會、只要生活過得好，還是有很多人願意回來鄉村，這樣就可以疏散都市的人口。","所以你們犯了一個大的錯誤，都市計畫內的農業道路、六都的都市計畫農業區都可以改為建地或商業用地，我們鄉下的土地為什麼要死在那裡！等一下又講人口不夠，哪裡不夠？你沒有製造好的環境，誰要過來？這個要大膽嘗試、要大刀闊斧！你們幾位在鄉村長大，不曉得你們聽到這幾句話的感受如何？請跟我講一下。","我講的你們聽得懂嗎？清楚嗎？清不清楚也要跟我講一下啊！為什麼大家都不敢講話？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員、謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：我又沒那麼兇！"],["胡次長忠一：委員講的有清楚，但是農業部無權去做這些，這是內政部的權限。"],["陳委員超明：但是你要協調，很多都是在農業部被擋掉的。我為什麼會說這些話？我當了十幾年的民意代表，知道這個問題常常存在。彭副主委、胡次長，還有徐副署長，你們真的要去溝通、協調，不然你們做了幾十年，沒有一次是成功的！以前有農村再生，還有地方創生，但是做的都是蜻蜓點水，真的要改造農村，一定要想好策略。","農村改造就像都市的都更一樣，有各種狀況可以設定。如何跟生態配合？這用頭腦就想得出來、做得出來。這件事我覺得彭副主委的責任很重大，你是建築師出身，為什麼請你來當副主委，這對地方創生、農村再生至關重要，土地的管理是在內政部國土管理署這邊，所以你們3個要密切配合才能把這個目標達成。有沒有信心？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：我是很有信心，但是……"],["陳委員超明：我提的方案你覺得可以嗎？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：大家一起密切配合，然後……"],["陳委員超明：真的要這樣，不然你們像過去綁手綁腳，不敢大刀闊斧，再怎麼說要提升農村、改造農村都沒有用！真的要用新的思維去做。","接下來是有關國土計畫法的部分，我們苗栗縣85%是山坡地，低丘緩坡，我在此要特別告訴農業部，你們以前有一個叫做農舍的什麼？蓋農舍的那個。"],["胡次長忠一：那是農村及農田水利，水保署啦！"],["陳委員超明：不是、不是。"],["胡次長忠一：不是農水署嗎？以前是……"],["陳委員超明：農舍的興建啦！那不是你們在說的嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：農舍興建是我們的水保……"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，那也是農業部管的。"],["胡次長忠一：有一個資源永續利用，這是管法令。"],["陳委員超明：不是資源永續利用。我在鄉下看到，苗栗縣有85%的山坡地，我們1甲地（大約3,000坪）換你們臺北市一間房子的10坪都換不起，你說是不是很悲哀？這樣公平嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：這個……"],["陳委員超明：我覺得六都的市長也沒有什麼好的，他是靠土地變更來賺錢，一變更就有幾十億、幾十億的收入，那樣叫好嗎？我們鄉村區就是非六都才叫做鄉村區！我常常在想，苗栗縣的地方環境比較特殊，它是低丘緩坡，你就讓我們成為一個低丘緩坡示範區。你看美國的高級社區都是在低丘緩坡的地方開發出來的，日本的輕井澤也是在這樣低丘緩坡的地方開發出來的。現在山上沒水、沒工人，也沒人務農，一片荒蕪，你們只有抱守，就怕農運團體抗爭，說會沒水果可吃、沒米可吃，我們糧食生產過剩，現在缺工，山上沒人要去做，所以我在苗栗縣一直要推低丘緩坡，但是被你們的法令綁死了，裡面有一條農舍用地應矩形配置於農業用地之地界線側及臨接道路。那是平地的農舍才可以，山坡地怎麼可以這樣規範？再來，每次要請你們解釋「但特殊地形者」，中央並沒有定義什麼叫做特殊地形者，你們應該要改變觀念，別人低丘緩坡已經做得很好，外國都用低丘緩坡，是個寶地，你竟然限制我們農民使用。現在你們越來越嚴格，還要農民耕種，還要種什麼蔬菜又種什麼，那都是吹牛，我要種漂亮的、高單價的東西，不可以嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：當然可以啊。"],["陳委員超明：可以？你們規定得死死的，只會叫我們種蕃薯。"],["胡次長忠一：但是如果蓋房子、如果是農……"],["陳委員超明：不是啦！次長，我不是跟你計較，我已經摸了很多了嘛！我一直在強調這一點，你們給我定義清楚，我們地方來訂定自治法規，一次50甲、100甲，讓地方去開路，把水保都做好，你現在不用怕大家擔心水保的問題，自己的房子自己蓋，他比誰都還更重視水保，你們都不用擔心這些，排水系統都幫你做得好好的，你為什麼這樣懷疑百姓？好像你們政府在限制我們，你不要怕農運團體，現在農民整個財產都沒有，你限制得這麼多！我是很良心、真心的講，現在農業部這一條，我還會再提出來，農村農舍的興建，尤其我們低丘緩坡，我帶你去看，真的很漂亮，尤其苗栗特殊，臺北下來40分鐘就到苗栗，30分鐘就能夠到每個地方去，這是最好疏散人口的地區，像我天天搭高鐵上來又回去，很近。你怎麼不用這個觀念？你用全國統一的一個思想，每一個地方的地理環境不一樣。彭副主委，山坡地的這些，你光農村改造，這個都要改變。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是。的確……"],["陳委員超明：農民越來越沒有錢。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：對，的確應該要因地制宜，因為委員苗栗這邊比較多是散村，所以那個村落的狀態跟南部，譬如召委這邊，他們嘉義這邊就比較集村，所以村落的方式不一樣。"],["陳委員超明：所以跟召委講，給我多講一點，他那邊也有低丘緩坡山坡的地方。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：也有，他比較有山坡地，那邊也有。"],["陳委員超明：你是海邊還是山裡面？"],["主席：我是海邊。"],["陳委員超明：你是海邊，和我一樣的。我現在說山裡面那邊，但是這個我一定要改進，我希望農業部要支持，也希望國土署不要給我限制那麼嚴格，要靠近路邊、要矩形的方式，你們規定得這麼多要做什麼？我跟你講，這個改造成功，你要種什麼蔬菜、水果，大家種了，一定會變成農耕隊出來，把地方弄得很漂亮。你們大家上次跟我說好，要叫你們做，你們怕農運團體罵，那都是沒有種田的人在講話，拿筆在指揮種田的，你們這個政府真的要改進，你對我這個看法覺得怎麼樣？"],["胡次長忠一：這個是這樣，現在如果國土計畫法是各縣市政府按照地方的發展需求，每5年可以通盤檢討，如果他們認為有必要，他們可以去做相關的規劃。"],["陳委員超明：因為我們低丘緩坡現在是占85%，你來看，很漂亮，真的很漂亮，但是你去的話，你會想在苗栗非常好，到臺北到臺中都很近。"],["胡次長忠一：但是是這樣啦！農地不要蓋，結果蓋得一大片，臺灣就在少子化，蓋那麼多房子要賣給誰，還是要做別墅？那個……"],["陳委員超明：退休下來，人家是有錢人，說什麼要賣給誰？"],["胡次長忠一：那沒有道理啦！"],["陳委員超明：那些老的人住在都市，讓給年輕人，老的人在這邊，要看孫子時，坐著高鐵上去，所以這就是大家的觀念不一樣，要賣給什麼人？"],["胡次長忠一：我們要站在國土長治久安的立場，不能……"],["陳委員超明：國土長治久安？你把山坡地給都市人，禮拜一到禮拜五燈紅酒綠，他們在賺錢，他們在臺北，禮拜六、禮拜天我們鄉下，你讓他們去散步，看青山綠水，我們得到什麼？"],["胡次長忠一：有啦，休閒農業……"],["陳委員超明：休閒農業？你的思維要改啦，這也是一種方式，怎麼樣山坡地不能這樣適度的開發？"],["胡次長忠一：委員，這涉及到國土保安，這國家的……"],["陳委員超明：國土保安不差這一塊，我講真的，環境會比原來保持得更好啊！你怎麼常常提到國土保安？"],["胡次長忠一：我們要站在公平正義的立場，國家的公平正義……"],["陳委員超明：我這個就叫做公平正義嘛！"],["胡次長忠一：你個人的，當然……"],["陳委員超明：不然你告訴我，六都都市內的農業區一直在改變，變更為住宅區、商業區，他們在賺錢，其他人要做農奴，去種米、種水果來給都市人吃？你為什麼不用這樣一個思維去判斷？你們都在顧都市人，難怪鄉下越來越凋零、越沒落。"],["胡次長忠一：沒有啦！都市我管不到啦，不好意思，我是只管農業。"],["陳委員超明：你管不到都市，我是跟你說怎麼樣把鄉下做好啦，不然你這個部長讓我來做啦！我真的講，觀念的思維要改變嘛！"],["胡次長忠一：我知道要改變，但是有時候社會公平正義跟國家子孫，要替子孫想。"],["陳委員超明：我現在跟你說，我們已經受到不公正的待遇了，你怎麼說這樣社會要公平啊？不然叫都市那些農地都不要改變，都還回來，好不好？以前的農地現在怎麼可以變為住宅區、商業區，去圖利、去暴利？為什麼房價會差了那麼多、為什麼會少子化？所以我今天講，你這個觀念不變不行，大家平等，我只再問你一句話，六都裡面都市計畫內的農業區，為什麼每一個人都在變？這樣不是天之驕子嗎？我們不是六都的人、不是都市的農業區，都不能變？"],["徐副署長燕興：沒有，都市計畫地區，如果是農業區要變，也有相關的規範。"],["陳委員超明：我知道有相關的規範……"],["徐副署長燕興：不是都在變……"],["陳委員超明：我現在跟你說公平正義嘛！一樣的，你幫我留下來是重點，什麼都不能變，大家要公平，你怎麼可以用這樣思維在講話？我一直很不滿這一點，所謂的鄉村區，我現在跟你指名，就是非六都的叫做鄉村區，你們都偏向有選票的六都，越多的地方，你們越重視，你們哪裡在關心鄉村區、關心非六都的？我這個一定堅持，這個是叫做不公平正義。國土保安，大家都會去做，一樣的國土保安，六都跟非六都都要一樣。你們只顧著他們賺錢，你有想到那些鄉下人有多難過嗎？怎麼他們可以變，我們都不能變，連適度的利用都不可以？還有一個思維，現在都市的房價會高，把這一些開放出來，自然房價就降低了，臺灣不用那麼多米，已經糧食生產過剩了，天天在講糧食安全，把以前的觀念帶來現在，現在的糧食，你們一年存餘多少、你們外銷虧損多少？你拿去做了多少糙米……"],["主席：好，陳委員，已經超過10分鐘了。"],["陳委員超明：真的觀念要改，不要這樣死死的，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，我給你兩倍的時間，感謝。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢，賴委員質詢後，我們是不是休息10分鐘，讓官員休息一下？好，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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民進黨在下鄉到處說凍結案對政務影響多大可是我完全沒看到我們現在政府對於解凍案的提出有任何任何感覺上我要加快腳步的部分我們立法院都三催四請了就是說你如果真的覺得預算凍結對你們的政務影響很大你趕快把解凍案提出來我再次問一下我們的秘書長請問考試院的解凍案什麼時候會送出來"},{"start":171.769,"end":197.924,"text":"我們如果就委員會交求我們提供的報告等等這個部分我們回去盤點的話儘快來處理不要講儘快因為我知道同仁都有儘快的在年底可不可以來得及年底前也可以吧那不會等到這麼晚還是明年底要不十年後不會吧對不對下個禮拜不行下下禮拜可不可以我就回去盤點要再負責任跟委員說我跟秘書長說我會跟你講"},{"start":199.113,"end":228.711,"text":"你們這樣的態度我感覺上對你們的解凍案你們自己都不著急的時候憑什麼到處去講說今天凍結案對政務有影響即便說凍結一層兩層三層不管是凍結多少你今天解凍案出來你現在能夠運用的百分之七十以凍結三層來講你早點弄出來對不對四月解凍案通過實質上你就可以用了不是嗎請問這個月不行四月行不行四月初可不可以我來努力"},{"start":229.523,"end":245.934,"text":"來努力喔 到現在為止喔我告訴你 你到現在為止連個期間你都不肯回答我也跟大家講啦 不是不是 秘書長你啦我知道你也有接到指示啦解凍案慢慢來啦這是我聽到民進黨的一個內部的指令解凍案全部慢慢來"},{"start":247.915,"end":264.782,"text":"反駁我趕快反擊我就我今天考試院我今天抗議羅志強說民進黨說解凍案慢慢來我告訴你我今天現在一個小時後把解凍案拿出來再不行下個禮拜我就把解凍案拿出來再不行下下禮拜我拿出來你給我一個時間"},{"start":266.977,"end":290.624,"text":"不然我跟你講 我得到訊息就是民進黨說解凍要慢慢來啦不急著送啦 叫各部會不用急啦因為只要不急 就拿沒有解凍來做抹黑在野黨所謂的凍結政務的一個藉口你不急 結果呢 不是說你啦行政院不急 然後到處拿這個當柴火去攻擊在野黨"},{"start":291.775,"end":317.276,"text":"今天我們的考訓做一個最好的示範啊連解凍案的時間他都拿不出來啊你的幕僚剛剛都點頭你們已經有在準備了請問預算通過是什麼時候通過的預算起碼通過兩個月有了吧對不對在立法院審查的時間你不要跟我講這兩個月你們完全沒有做任何因應準備有在準備謝謝嘛有在準備"},{"start":318.922,"end":344.467,"text":"拿出來 這而且 民主黨你也知道立法院的凍結案是從有立法院開始就有立法院的凍結案 沒錯吧就有立法院解凍案沒錯吧就有今天考試院怎麼去因應解凍的SOP沒錯吧那我跟各位講 請問到底民進黨在幹什麼所以第一件事我在這邊具體的拜託 肯託"},{"start":347.145,"end":367.464,"text":"希望我們考試院為我們行政機關之先你就把解凍案拿出來否則我要跟民進黨政府不要在那邊一天到晚拿史上預算最高在那邊哭窮 賣慘說這事做不了 那事做不了接下來我要請教您請問你剛剛已經講了不會提出釋憲案對不對就預算部分不會嘛"},{"start":372.455,"end":397.361,"text":"那為什麼你剛才講為什麼今天考試院的預算的煽動沒有監察院那麼嚴重為什麼我跟你講啊因為考試院的官員我還是肯定我相信秘書長你自己有看到我在審查預算我對考試院的預算我個人的提案是相當客氣的沒錯吧對不對你們的考試院的單位來跟我溝通我都說該給我絕對不會刪我不會攔"},{"start":401.069,"end":424.005,"text":"因為考試院目前在我的看法當中是有功能的就這麼簡單而且有在發揮功能當然有很多地方要改進像剛剛我看審判委員那個他的提議我就非常認同啊這個不要跟考生搶錢啦公務員報考的數字都越來越難看結果腦筋還動到要去提高報名會人家日本都不用收"},{"start":425.655,"end":452.44,"text":"這個我覺得意見可以帶進去這就是希望考試院可以改進的地方這我們相互勉勵嘛沒錯嘛對不對做不做得到再說當然要尊重你們考試院的一個職權可是我們立法委員為民喉舌這是考試院跟我們立法院的互動但是我要跟秘書長說為什麼你跟我講你不會提事先啊監察院要提監察院當然要提啊遮掩他的無能跟廢啊"},{"start":453.786,"end":476.944,"text":"我想請問 考試院有沒有編一個出國預算去考察到這個中雄的保育區去考察黑熊有沒有 這個預算 有沒有編我們如果是以這個目的的話 這種主題我們當然當然啦 對你不要講說你沒有編這個預算你們也沒有荒謬到中雄保育地去考察黑熊啦"},{"start":478.066,"end":505.914,"text":"你們考試院沒有幹出這種事情啊來我再這樣請教你請問您吼您的業務吼是增加還是減少?我的業務費是減少我是說您的業務啦我的業務啊對啊考試院業務啊您說在院裡面的業務啊院裡的業務啊考生的業務啊然後我們公務員保障的業務啊增加還減少?應該是在增加那非常好嘛你知道啊監察院陳取上任之後調查跟糾正案下滑百分之三十"},{"start":507.632,"end":535.632,"text":"減少欸 好閒啊那我想請教你齁今天考試院你的預算 對不對這幾年有暴增四成嗎有沒有增加百分之四十有沒有沒有沒有嘛他的業務量自我限縮 閹割 減少百分之三十就監察院你知道預算程序上任後增加多少嗎 你知道嗎嗯 不了解增加百分之四十啊"},{"start":537.421,"end":560.376,"text":"增加百分之四十結果業務減少百分之三十這麼廢的單位跟我講總預算被刪在枯窮連衛生紙都買不到我告訴你學寫考試院啦你有考試院一半的功能今天監察院不會到今天的地步啦我再想請教一下齁請問考試院有把廢死列為你們2023年到2026年終成策略計畫目標嗎 有沒有"},{"start":565.128,"end":590.069,"text":"廢除死刑沒有這不是我們的業務非常好啊當然不是你們的業務啊也不該這麼做啊台灣人民八成反對廢除死刑可是我們監察院把廢除死刑列為2023年到2026年的忠誠策略計畫目標跟著八成民意對幹我再想請教你啊請問考試院有沒有一個委員叫做高永誠有沒有"},{"start":591.206,"end":618.731,"text":"有沒有 沒有沒有嘛 恭喜你啊東廠沒有進駐考試院這位高永成清算檢察官只因為為了關說段宜康的曲棍球案人家不從就清算他考試院有這種事情嗎 有沒有這個跟我們的業務都不相干當然不相干 也不會有這種事啊就業務相干 請問你們有願意當東廠嗎不會吧 不可能吧不可能 不可能嘛"},{"start":619.992,"end":639.821,"text":"所以我今天要在這邊講這個東廠跟我們講說衛生紙發不出來看看考試院啦為什麼考試院今天在三節預算上我們立法院對考試院相對是能夠讓他能夠用的預算盡量去用因為你們監察院丟臉到極致"},{"start":641.65,"end":659.398,"text":"你廢號 沒有功能 私衛素餐 坐領高薪 浪費納稅人的錢就算了 不是私衛素餐 坐領高薪 浪費納稅人的錢 還當東廠考試院 還有臉去視線學學考 呃 說監察院監察院還有臉去視線學學考試院啦 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":806,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時33分）主席，有請劉秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長好。首先想請問您，監察院在本月24號說預算被大幅刪減，要聲請釋憲，我想請問考試院會針對總預算問題提出憲法訴訟嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，我們跟監察院的狀況很不一樣，所以沒有這個規劃。"],["羅委員智強：好，我有看到你在媒體上說，考試院的預算狀況沒有監察院那麼糟，所以不會嘛！我想請問秘書長，為什麼考試院預算刪凍的狀況沒有像監察院刪的這麼多？"],["劉秘書長建忻：考試院的狀況在凍結的部分，因為跟大多數的機關一樣凍結三成，誠實說，凍結三成對未來運作還是會有一些影響，因為……"],["羅委員智強：針對凍結的部分，請問你們的解凍提過來了沒？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為總預算才剛公布，所以現在這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：那你什麼時候可以提出來？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個應該會儘快。"],["羅委員智強：不行、不行，秘書長，你們既然這麼在乎，你也知道凍結案，你今天預算報告解凍過來，如果合理的話，我羅智強第一個投下解凍的票，可是你解凍案不送過來，請問我們怎麼解凍？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為總預算才剛公布幾天……"],["羅委員智強：你告訴我們什麼時候可以送過來？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個我回去……"],["羅委員智強：總預算剛公布，你們行政院怎麼搞或是民進黨政府怎麼搞，考試院不一定要配合，但是針對準備解凍的事情，你不會跟我講現在才開始準備解凍案吧？應該已經早就提出預算要通過解凍的部分。請問解凍案什麼時候……有在做嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：就各種委員在預算審查的時候……"],["羅委員智強：我看你們幕僚有在點頭，有在做？"],["劉秘書長建忻：有啦，都有在做。"],["羅委員智強：你就直接答嘛！對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：就是因為大家有各種解凍條件……"],["羅委員智強：請問你，能不能下禮拜就送出來？可不可以？"],["劉秘書長建忻：大概沒有辦法……"],["羅委員智強：沒辦法，你們跟我講說凍結預算，政府就快要倒掉了、來不及，那你給我一個時間嘛！什麼時候可以把解凍案送出來？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我回去再盤點一下，跟委員說明……"],["羅委員智強：秘書長，這樣真的是不太能接受。"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為委員給我們很多附帶……"],["羅委員智強：我先跟你講，秘書長，這不是你的問題，我告訴各位，明天民進黨又要去癱瘓立法院，說實在話，民進黨下鄉到處說凍結案對政務影響多大，可是我完全沒看到現在的政府對於解凍案的提出有任何要加快腳步的感覺，我們立法院都三催四請了，你如果真的覺得預算凍結對你們政務影響很大，你趕快把解凍案提出來。我再次問一下秘書長，請問考試院的解凍案什麼時候會送出來？"],["劉秘書長建忻：就委員會要求我們提供的報告等等，這個部分我們回去盤點，儘快來處理。"],["羅委員智強：不要講儘快，給我一個時間。"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為我知道同仁都有儘快在處理……"],["羅委員智強：年底可不可以來得及？年底以前可以吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：不會等到那麼晚……"],["羅委員智強：還是明年底？要不要十年後？不會吧，對不對？下個禮拜不行，下下禮拜可不可以？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我回去盤點再負責跟委員說明。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟秘書長講，你們這樣的態度，感覺上對你們的解凍案，你們自己都不著急的時候，憑什麼到處去講說今天凍結案對政務有影響？即便說凍結一成、兩成、三成，不管是凍結多少，你今天解凍案出來，現在能夠運用的有70%，以凍結三成來講，你早點弄出來，4月解凍案通過，實質上你就可以用了，不是嗎？請問這個月不行，4月行不行？4月初可不可以？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我來努力。"],["羅委員智強：你來努力？我告訴你，你到現在為止連個期間都不肯回答，我也跟大家講，不是秘書長你，我知道你也有接到指示，解凍案慢慢來，這是我聽到民進黨的一個內部指令，解凍案全部慢慢來……"],["劉秘書長建忻：我沒有得到這個訊息……"],["羅委員智強：不然反駁我、趕快反擊我。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我沒有得到這個訊息。"],["羅委員智強：除非今天考試院抗議羅智強說民進黨指示解凍案慢慢來！我告訴你，除非你今天、現在、一個小時後把解凍案拿出來；再不行，下個禮拜就把解凍案拿出來；再不行，下下禮拜拿出來；你給我一個時間，不然我跟你講，我得到的訊息就是民進黨說解凍案慢慢來，不急著送，叫各部會不用急啦，因為只要不急，就拿沒有解凍作為抹黑在野黨凍結政務的一個藉口。你不急，結果呢？不是說你啦！行政院不急，到處拿這個當柴火去攻擊在野黨，今天我們考試院做一個最好的示範，連解凍案的時間都拿不出來，你的幕僚剛剛都點頭，你們已經有在準備了，請問預算案是什麼時候通過的？"],["劉秘書長建忻：預算……"],["羅委員智強：起碼通過兩個月有了吧，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：在立法院審查的時間……"],["羅委員智強：是啊！你不要跟我講這兩個月你們完全沒有做任何因應準備。"],["劉秘書長建忻：有在準備。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝嘛！有在準備就拿出來，而且秘書長你也知道，凍結案是從有立法院開始就有立法院的凍結案，沒錯吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["羅委員智強：就有立法院解凍案沒錯吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["羅委員智強：就有今天考試院怎麼去因應解凍的SOP，沒錯吧？我跟各位講，請問到底民進黨在幹什麼？所以第一件事，我在這邊具體的拜託、懇託，希望考試院為我們行政機關之先，你就把解凍案拿出來，否則我要告訴民進黨政府，拿史上最高的預算，不要一天到晚在那邊哭窮、賣慘，說這個事做不了、那個事做不了。","接下來我要請教您，你剛剛已經講不會提出釋憲案，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：就預算部分。"],["羅委員智強：不會嘛！你剛才也講今天考試院預算的刪凍沒有監察院那麼嚴重，為什麼？我跟你講，因為考試院的官員我還是肯定的，我相信秘書長自己有看到，我在審查預算時對考試院的預算，我個人的提案是相當客氣的，沒錯吧，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["羅委員智強：你們考試院的單位來跟我溝通，我都說該給的我絕對不會刪、我不會攔，因為考試院目前在我的看法當中是有功能的，就這麼簡單，而且有在發揮功能，當然有很多地方要改進，像剛剛我看到沈發惠委員的提議，我就非常認同，就是不要跟考生搶錢啦！公務員報考的數字越來越難看，結果腦筋還動到要去提高報名費，人家日本都不用收，我覺得這個意見可以納進去，這就是希望考試院可以改進的地方，我們相互勉勵，沒錯嘛，對不對？做不做得到再說，當然要尊重考試院的職權，可是我們立法委員為民喉舌，這是考試院跟立法院的互動。我要跟秘書長說，為什麼你跟我講你不會提釋憲案，但監察院要提？監察院當然要提啊！遮掩它的無能跟廢呀！我想請問考試院，有沒有編一個出國預算到棕熊保育區去考察黑熊，有沒有這個預算？有沒有編？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個我們……"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果是以這個目的、這種主題，我們當然沒有編。"],["羅委員智強：當然啦！對，不要講你沒有編這個預算……"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟我們的業務沒有什麼關係。"],["羅委員智強：你們也沒有荒謬到棕熊保育地去考察黑熊啦！你們考試院沒有幹出這種事情啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們的業務比較特定。"],["羅委員智強：我再想請教你，請問您的業務是增加還是減少？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我的業務費是減少。"],["羅委員智強：我是說您的業務啦！"],["劉秘書長建忻：我的業務喔？"],["羅委員智強：對啊！考試院業務啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：您說在院裡面的業務？"],["羅委員智強：院裡的業務、考生的業務、公務員保障的業務，是增加還減少？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該是在增加。"],["羅委員智強：非常好。你知道監察院陳菊上任之後，調查跟糾正案下滑30%，減少欸！好閒哪！我想請教你，今天考試院的預算這幾年有暴增四成嗎？有沒有增加40%？有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛！它的業務量自我限縮、閹割，減少30%，就是監察院，你知道陳菊上任後預算增加多少嗎？你知道嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：不瞭解，不過他們好像……"],["羅委員智強：增加40%啊！預算增加40%，結果業務減少30%，這麼廢的單位，跟我講總預算被刪、在哭窮，連衛生紙都買不到？我告訴你，學學考試院啦！你有考試院一半的功能，監察院不會到今天的地步啦！","我想再請教一下，請問考試院有把廢死列為你們2023年到2026年中程策略計畫目標嗎？有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：你說廢死？"],["羅委員智強：廢除死刑。"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有，這不是我們的業務。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，當然不是你們業務啊，也不該這麼做，臺灣人民八成反對廢除死刑，可是監察院把廢除死刑列為2023年到2026年的中程策略計畫目標，跟這八成民意對幹！我再想請教你，請問考試院有沒有一位委員叫作高涌誠？有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛，恭喜你啊！東廠沒有進駐考試院，這位高涌誠清算檢察官，只因為為了關說段宜康的曲棍球案，人家不從，就清算他，考試院有這種事情嗎？有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個跟我們的業務都不相干。"],["羅委員智強：當然不相干，也不會有這種事啊！就算業務相干，請問你們有人願意當東廠嗎？不會吧？不可能吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：不可能。"],["羅委員智強：不可能嘛！所以我今天要在這邊講，這個東廠跟我講衛生紙發不出來，看看考試院啦！看看考試院啦！為什麼考試院今天在刪減預算上，立法院對考試院相對是讓它能夠用的預算儘量去用，因為你們監察院丟臉到極致！你廢、沒有功能、尸位素餐、坐領高薪、浪費納稅人的錢就算了，不是！尸位素餐、坐領高薪、浪費納稅人的錢，還當東廠，監察院還有臉去釋憲！學學考試院啦，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來麻煩羅智強委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：有請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-5","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","林倩綺","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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業務會被刪除50%了 刪50% 凍結10%所以你大概有60%的錢不能用了我常講 任何一個個人 或者家庭你的收入給你減少50% 60% 你的生活絕對會受到影響"},{"start":51.803,"end":70.609,"text":"那 業務費啊 7千多萬被刪了 被刪凍啊大概剩下多少剩下 從7千多萬你現在可以用的錢大概有3354萬我幫你算出來啦 齁NCC現在可以用的錢啊剩3354萬"},{"start":73.151,"end":98.997,"text":"但你這個業務費啊 是不是要拿來付房租 要不要要 土地租借2500多萬來 NCC的房子啊 是跟人家租的啊那個 NCC租房子要不要付錢要 要啦 當然要付租金嘛NCC的房租一年多少錢2562萬 我都幫你查出來了所以你目前可以用的錢有3354"},{"start":101.667,"end":128.418,"text":"光付掉房租就付掉百分之七十六就是兩千五百六十二萬要付房租大概剩下不到八百萬啊純模備八萬啊NCC的業務費 公務預算啊一個月大概要花多少錢我去調你已經花掉的啊一個月可不可以開四百萬啊所以你這七百 將近八百萬你目前可用的公務預算"},{"start":130.031,"end":157.514,"text":"扣掉房租剩八百萬這個月已經用掉四百萬剩下四月我看你存了錢四月營料就不錢了對 沒錯所以我們就是比較傷腦筋就是我們想辦法讓房租的租賃兩千五百多萬想要跟地主來協商看看能不能延後支付要出租本價給你收出出來"},{"start":158.795,"end":176.685,"text":"人家出租我們賣那為什麼我們的政治我們的政治衝突生害到人民的人民的權益就要處理的 那就要跟他講了 那不可以阻礙你如果老出水是違約的好 就算給你10%來解凍多了700多萬 給750幾萬而已大概也撐不到兩個月"},{"start":188.089,"end":203.578,"text":"三掉50% 凍結10%就算給你解凍 如果沒有解凍 你4月用完就沒錢了如果就算有解凍 也撐不到六月 差不多六月那NCC我看一下你去年 即使你"},{"start":204.844,"end":215.913,"text":"比較多跟民眾有關係的像我們北區處 尤其是在北區有一個民眾可以臨櫃到櫃台去服務的案件一年有7687件我們2024年新的認證就是民眾送來認證的有7747件"},{"start":228.051,"end":242.114,"text":"從國外進口到海關海關進口要NCC蓋章 大家知道NCC不去檢查海關是不放行的因為那個射頻必須要NCC認證檢驗的海關有25600件其中還有一個跟民眾權益有關係的就是你建築物的電信設備審查和審驗有將近3萬件"},{"start":253.032,"end":273.059,"text":"比如說我們一般 我們蓋房子啦 你的住家啦 你的大樓啦你那邊的電信設備喔 那些都要NCC來審查和審驗嘛 是不是這樣是 運作那你現在如果4月以後沒有辦法運作 那這些就會影響到人民的權利啦"},{"start":274.144,"end":294.716,"text":"沒錯 也跟委員報告還報告我們所謂的通信監理系統是一個電腦系統電腦系統所使用的水電費如果水電費支付出去電腦系統掛掉大概整個運作都會停擺沒關係啦反正黃國昌委員說要三道讓民眾有感這個NCC這個民眾絕對有感啦對不對好再來"},{"start":301.869,"end":323.82,"text":"現在NCC還有一個問題 你的委員沒有人 不能開會這個絕對是法定總額 還不用說法定總額你現在不能開會 我幫你調查一下到今年6月2025年剩兩個月 執照到期要換新照 廣播業者"},{"start":325.066,"end":337.936,"text":"有25張無線電視有4張4家衛星廣播業者有9家那你現在這些都不能換照到今年6月就齊滿了我有沒有算錯沒有錯37家4月38張照沒錯這些都不能換照那不能換照就處於一種違法的狀態下營業是不是這樣"},{"start":357.292,"end":385.047,"text":"對 從某個角度來看是這樣對嘛對 法律條文你要換照那你沒有換照你就違法營業那業者說又不是我不換照是你NCC不能審查所以啊有去法院提告提定暫時狀態處分有 那我們有業者已經跑去提告說不是我不換照是你們NCC不能審因為你們沒有委員結果去提告結果業者敗訴"},{"start":386.841,"end":407.349,"text":"業者說NCC不能審是政治問題所以他司法權他不能介入所以現在問題要回歸到原點不能換照違法狀態下繼續營業光6月就要有30幾家25家廣播業者4家無線電視還有9家的衛星廣播電視那能不能給他罰款"},{"start":420.287,"end":437.693,"text":"因為他違法狀態營業嘛好那我不能給你撤照那我給你罰錢我們規定是這樣喔你換照沒有通過原來的規定啦原條文規定如果你沒有換照你繼續營業我就給你罰錢對不對履法不定我就給你撤照好那要不要罰錢"},{"start":439.653,"end":459.478,"text":"我聽說NCC去辦了一個專家會議是不是這樣2月20幾號請了四個專家來解釋那這種狀態下能不能罰款四個專家很不幸的有四個意見四個看完都不敢"},{"start":460.976,"end":480.352,"text":"因為你要請專家 你不想輸掉的先問一下你就叫四個 表示你這個會議是開真的沒有事先串通所以四位專家會議做出四項結論第一個 第一個說委員不足因為是你們的委員人數不足嘛 所以不能罰第二個說"},{"start":485.253,"end":507.791,"text":"我寫在這邊 第二個就是說你業者沒有經許可營業行為進行裁罰 但是他在合法期間有提出信賴保護原則你不能罰再來也有主張 合法期間提出環境申請不等於一定要取得新執照所以不能主張信賴保護原則 這個意思是可以罰的 也覺得可以罰的"},{"start":509.807,"end":517.731,"text":"那還有一個主張更明確沒有自行決定是否裁法的這個裁量空間你就是要法那現在怎麼辦因為是處於這種灰色地帶我們內部還在討論專家會議的四種意見你們內部怎麼討論等下是找專家先問一下他意見找四個意見一樣的來開"},{"start":536.46,"end":546.147,"text":"這樣你比較有根據啦不然你怎麼開人家這四個專家真的就做出事項決議好那能不能廢止執照因為我沒有辦法審嘛現在業者也會擔心啦那會不會被你撤照"},{"start":554.403,"end":568.201,"text":"沒有辦法沒有辦法 業者不用擔心啦 也不能湊照啦因為管頻道頻率的是樹花部啦不是NCC啦那樹花部除非NCC廢照"},{"start":569.304,"end":588.688,"text":"數化部才會去把無線電頻率收回去啦 是不是這樣是 成績上是這樣嘛那你NCC你現在不會廢照 你廢照委員嗎 報告你要廢照也不行啊對 組織法9條2項5款是沒有辦法廢所以NCC現在就處於一個最標準的完全癱瘓的狀態啦這個實在是很可悲啦"},{"start":595.728,"end":605.52,"text":"那你現在我剛剛講的每年有幾萬件喔去年海關通行案件有兩萬五千多件喔現在卡在海關你那個射頻沒有認證的"},{"start":608.122,"end":635.327,"text":"你這個是沒有錢處理啦這也沒錢處理啦然後新的產品認證的一年去年有7700件民眾到櫃台直接請申請服務的有7600多件各大樓住家房屋電信設備的審驗審查一年有大概3萬件你的業務費再撐一兩個月就沒錢了我看接下來"},{"start":638.988,"end":644.695,"text":"這個人民就會真的感受到了你這樣預算這樣刪真的是會影響到民眾的權利有沒有來 主委你有什麼看法"},{"start":652.056,"end":676.951,"text":"確實跟委員報告的因為我們這些通傳系統、監理系統、海關認證系統都是用電腦化作業那電腦化會使用到水電費、通訊費跟海關之間的網路連線那些預算都沒有的情況之下如果這個通傳的電腦系統都停止運作的話就會這個這方面也有全部都會停止拜託出頭家不要這麼害羞出水出頭家給我答應"},{"start":678.644,"end":682.265,"text":"我們也來跟他進行協商主委你也沒辦法 你也無可奈何啦感謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝我們林俊憲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時11分）感謝主席，本席邀請NCC代主委。"],["主席：請陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：主委早。主委，在這次的預算審查，NCC算是重災戶啦！我大概看了一下，在我們交通委員會就屬數發部跟NCC算是最慘的，NCC公務預算的業務費被刪除50%，被刪50%喔！又被凍結10%，所以你大概有60%的錢不能用。我常講，任何一個個人或者家庭，如果收入被減少50%、60%，你的生活絕對會受到影響。業務費原本編列七千多萬，被刪凍後大概還剩下多少？原本編列七千多萬，現在可以用的錢大概剩下3,354萬，我幫你算出來了，NCC現在可以用的錢剩3,354萬。主委，這個業務費是不是要拿來付房租？要不要？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：要，土地租金二千五百多萬。"],["林委員俊憲：NCC的辦公室是跟人家租的，NCC租房子要不要付錢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：要。"],["林委員俊憲：要啦，當然要付租金嘛！請問NCC的辦公室租金一年多少錢？2,562萬，我都幫你查出來了，你目前可以用的錢有3,354萬，其中房租就付掉76%，也就是有2,562萬要付房租，所以大概剩下不到800萬！NCC公務預算的業務費一個月大概花多少錢？我去調了你們已經花掉的數據來看，一個月差不多要花400萬啦，所以剩下將近800萬，也就是你目前可用的公務預算扣掉房租剩下800萬，這個月已經用掉400萬，接下來是4月，我看你剩下的錢可能4月用完就沒錢了！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，沒錯，所以我們比較傷腦筋，對於這二千五百多萬的租金，我們想辦法要跟地主來協商看看能不能延後支付。"],["林委員俊憲：叫房東晚一點收房租喔？房東會願意嗎？為什麼我們的政治衝突要損害到人民的權益？那是他的房子啊，他如果不願意出租了，進而要趕你們呢？因為你們沒有按時繳房租是違約耶！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["林委員俊憲：好，就算凍結的10%給你們解凍，多了七百五十幾萬而已啦，大概也撐不到兩個月啦，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，因為剛剛委員也有提到，一個月平均要花費四百多萬。"],["林委員俊憲：預算被刪掉50%、凍結10%，如果沒有解凍，4月用完可能就沒錢；就算有解凍，也撐不到6月，差不多6月啦！","我看了一下去年你們NCC的業務中比較多跟民眾有關係的，像NCC北區處有一個民眾臨櫃服務櫃臺，一年臨櫃服務案件有7,687件；2024年新的認證，就是民眾送來認證的有7,747件；另外，從國外進口的一些相關器材也需要NCC比對簽審後蓋章才能通關，這個大家知道吧，NCC如果沒有去檢查，海關是不放行的，因為那個射頻器材必須要NCC認證檢驗，這個部分去年一年就有2萬5,600件啊！另外還有一個跟民眾權益有關係的，就是建築物電信設備的審查和審驗，這部分有將近3萬件，我們一般蓋房子，也就是你的住家、你的大樓，如果有電信設備，都是需要NCC來審查和審驗的，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：如果NCC在4月以後沒有辦法運作，這些就會影響到人民的權益了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒錯，也跟委員報告，所謂的通訊監理系統是個電腦系統，電腦系統所使用的水電費如果無法支付，電腦系統掛掉，大概整個運作都會停擺。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣也沒辦法啊！沒關係啦，反正黃國昌委員說要刪到讓民眾有感，NCC的部分民眾絕對有感啦！","再來，現在NCC還有個問題，就是你們的委員人數不夠無法開會，這個絕對是法定總額，不用說啦，因為人數未達法定總額過半數，現在不能開會，我幫你調查了一下，到今（2025）年6月底前（距離現在還剩二個多月），廣電媒體執照到期要申請換新照，其中廣播業者有25張、無線電視事業有4張、衛星廣播電視業者有9張，現在這些都不能換照了，到今年6月就期滿了，我有沒有算錯？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有錯，37家事業、38張照，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：這些都不能換照，不能換照就處於在違法的狀態下營業，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，從某個角度來看是這樣。"],["林委員俊憲：對嘛！法律條文規定期限到了就要換照，沒有換照就是違法營業，但並不是業者不去申請換照，而是NCC不能審查，所以有業者去法院提告聲請「定暫時狀態處分」，我們有業者已經跑去提告了，表示並非他不換照，而是你們NCC不能審，因為你們沒有委員，提告的結果是業者敗訴，理由是NCC不能審是政治問題，司法權不能介入，所以現在問題又回歸到原點，因為不能換照，所以是違法狀態下繼續營業，光6月就有三十幾家，25家廣播業者、4家無線電視事業及9家衛星廣播電視事業，主委，能不能給他罰款？可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這個我們需要……"],["林委員俊憲：因為他在違法狀態下營業嘛！我不能給你撤照，那我給你罰錢，我們的規定、原條文的規定是這樣的，如果沒有換照而繼續營業，我就開罰，對不對？屢罰不聽就予以撤照。好，現在這樣要不要罰錢？我聽說NCC舉辦了一個專家會議，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，2月20號。"],["林委員俊憲：2月20號，請了四個專家來解釋在這種狀態下能不能罰款，很不幸的，四個專家有四個意見，四個看法都不一樣，你要請專家之前應該私底下先問一下，怎麼會找四位？表示你這個會議是開真的，沒有事先串通，所以四位專家的會議做出了四項結論，第一個說是因為你們的委員人數不足，所以不能罰；第二個說業者未經許可的營業行為可以進行裁罰，但是因為業者在合法期間有提出，有信賴保護原則，所以你不能罰；第三個主張是業者雖在合法期間提出換照申請，但不等同於必然取得新執照，所以不能主張信賴保護原則，這個意思是可以罰啦，也有覺得可以罰的啦；第四個的主張更明確，沒有自行決定是否裁罰的裁量空間，就是要罰啦。請問現在怎麼辦？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為是處於這種灰色地帶，我們內部還在討論。"],["林委員俊憲：專家會議的四種意見，你們內部怎麼討論？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是說我們……"],["林委員俊憲：你下次找專家先問一下他的意見，找四個意見一樣的來開，這樣你才有根據，不然你怎麼開？人家這四個專家真的就做出四項決議。好，那能不能廢止執照？因為現在沒有辦法審嘛，業者也會擔心會不會被你撤照？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有辦法。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有辦法，業者也不用擔心，也不能撤照啦。因為管頻道、頻率的是數發部，不是NCC，除非NCC廢照，數發部才會把無線電頻率收回去，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["林委員俊憲：程序上是這樣。那你NCC現在不會廢照，即便你要廢照，委員人數也不夠，你要廢照也不行啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，依照組織法第九條第二項第五款是沒有辦法廢的。"],["林委員俊憲：所以NCC現在就處於一個最標準的完全癱瘓的狀態，這個實在是很可悲。我剛剛講的，現在每一年有幾萬件，去年海關通行案件有兩萬五千多件，現在卡在海關射頻沒有認證的，這些是沒有錢處理。然後新的產品認證的去年有7,700件，民眾到櫃臺直接申請服務的有七千六百多件，然後各大樓住家房屋電信設備的審驗審查，一年有大概3萬件，你的業務費再撐一、兩個月就沒錢了，我看接下來人民就會真的感受到了，預算這樣刪真的是會影響到民眾的權利。來，主委，你有什麼看法？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：確實跟委員報告的，因為我們這些通傳系統、監理系統、海關認證系統都是用電腦化作業，電腦化會使用到水電費、通訊費跟海關之間的網路連線，那些預算都沒有的情況之下，如果通傳的電腦系統都停止運作的話，這方面的業務全部都會停擺。"],["林委員俊憲：你拜託房東慢一點來收房租，房東有答應嗎？沒有的話，不然來拜託我們主席幫忙你拜託一下，我們林國成委員去替你們說一下，請房東慢一點收。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們有在跟他進行協商。"],["林委員俊憲：主委，你也沒辦法，你也無可奈何啦！好，感謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。在這裡跟委員會報告，稍等一下陳雪生委員質詢完畢以後，我們就接著休息10分鐘。","現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900ab423ed9e7af7f1c2ba64e6561398ad01f25d2de176b75bc11b71d275bb92f445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"09:58:33 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我繼續再往下看喔所以現在很囂張欸"},{"start":194.266,"end":220.366,"text":"上面寫說 來來來 我們來看一下這廣電媒體喔年代說柯文哲的賴微信有把妹對話 非常露骨這有沒有接到檢舉有處理的狀況怎麼樣已經上過諮詢會議了諮詢會議的結論是什麼諮詢會議的意見是公文會參考的就是一般 依照慣例是做成重要決定前的一些內部的資訊"},{"start":222.526,"end":250.003,"text":"所以咧?所以沒辦法透露就對了嘛根據政府資訊公開法是對啦所以現在委員會委員人數不夠這個還是沒辦法處理嘛是嗎?是那就完全呼應我剛搶嘛卓榮泰為什麼不提主委就放任這些莫名其妙的媒體繼續造謠啊每天晚上造謠散播假訊息啊民進黨政府有多可笑啊"},{"start":251.004,"end":267.832,"text":"一方面說要打假訊息另外一方面縱容這一種幫民進黨大內宣的廣電媒體在散播假訊息主委看到這些假訊息會不會覺得很痛心完全沒有事實根據胡說八道然後NCC也沒辦法處理人民為什麼憤怒人民為什麼憤怒"},{"start":280.965,"end":303.038,"text":"這就是人民憤怒的理由嘛來 我們再往下看你們1月17號NCC的臉書貼啊說你們業務費3到1元你們NCC的業務費有被3到1元嗎 有嗎各位委員報告 這個時間點是在政黨那個提案 撤案之前的回應所以把時間點要所以在這個時間點本院的院會討論過了沒有有嗎沒有吧"},{"start":311.355,"end":323.583,"text":"應該沒有吧本院的院會都還沒有討論過他即使不撤案你怎麼知道他會通過你們NCC帶頭散播假訊息喔大家有樣學樣啊這沒一體啊"},{"start":330.226,"end":355.128,"text":"我們那時候是呼籲說這種情況如果發生的話會有這種情境發生所以我們認為說最後有三道議員嗎 有還是沒有最後是因為他那案子撤掉了對嘛 就還沒有經過院會討論嘛這麼急喔幫忙配合做大內宣喔難怪這些廣電媒體有樣學樣 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陳耀祥說要等到檢察官偵查起訴才要去做行政裁處啊是偵查結束了沒有檢察官的階段是結束了"},{"start":440.692,"end":458.539,"text":"所以你們要等到什麼時候做裁處你們現在要跟我講說NCC的行政處分要等到法院確定判決像海峽那些其實都已經處分都已經裁處了你們處分什麼那個海峽電信二類電信業者海峽電信已經有裁處400多萬飛速移動呢飛速移動當時候他"},{"start":465.148,"end":479.017,"text":"他好像那個實質的內容你上面看我畫紅框那個代理主委你看一下如果你業務不熟我都幫你整理出來了來看一下裁罰時間內容與金額無裁罰時間內容與金額無奇怪是發生什麼事"},{"start":487.315,"end":510.877,"text":"我看不懂啊還是說因為人家很夠力找到NCC前委員蕭其紅當門神所以NCC軟趴趴是這樣嗎絕對不是那如果不是你跟大家解釋一下一拖再拖啊拖到現在啊你還是沒處理啊這部分我們回去再了解需要多久"},{"start":513.386,"end":538.958,"text":"一個禮拜之內喔好好跟大家講清楚說錢不夠不能打詐笑死人了檢察官偵查都終結了也都沒有裁罰跟錢有什麼關係錢給你你還是沒做啊一個禮拜喔書面回覆好好解釋清楚啊不要讓社會大眾人家說哇原來詐騙集團只要找NCC的前委員當門神就沒事了可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":542.284,"end":543.25,"text":"一個禮拜可以沒問題好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時48分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請代理主委。"],["主席：好，請陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：代理主委，現在廣電媒體上面非常多的假訊息，很多閱聽大眾深惡痛覺，大家都在問一件事情，NCC是睡著了嗎？我從具體的開始講啦，從今年總預算的審查，三立、民視做假新聞說我們刪了體育署11億的預算，這是跟客觀事實不符，這個不是意見的表達，明顯跟客觀事實不符，NCC有沒有接到檢舉？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分有，我們有請業者來做意見回答，做意見陳述。"],["黃委員國昌：陳述了沒有？"],["林處長慧玲：已經陳述了。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，他的陳述你們可以接受嗎？"],["林處長慧玲：我們要提諮詢會議來討論。"],["黃委員國昌：還要拖多久？"],["林處長慧玲：目前最近應該是會在4月吧，4月10號我們會討論。"],["黃委員國昌：拖這麼久？"],["林處長慧玲：沒有，因為意見陳述要時間，而且他是自律委員會……"],["黃委員國昌：他有回復啊，陳情人直接給我講了，但回復內容多可笑啊，三立製造假新聞被抓到，甩鍋給民視，還特別強調這個假訊息的來源是民進黨立委吳沛憶，想要脫免責任，這麼客觀的事實，去看預算審查的結果就知道了，散播假訊息，配合民進黨政府做大內宣嗎？可以這樣幹嗎？NCC，這個案子要處理多久？需要處理多久？處理半年？處理一年？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我們會進行該有程序，4月份提諮詢委員會議之後，因為現在委員會議沒辦法組成，所以大概會持續到諮詢會議……"],["黃委員國昌：說得很好，現在委員會沒辦法組成，你有接到指令說你要代理多久嗎？有嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了，現在NCC主委的提名權在誰身上？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：依據組織法的規定，是行政院長。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院有提來嗎？所以現在誰在癱瘓NCC？還是為了要cover這些假訊息，讓委員會沒辦法運作，讓這些假新聞沒辦法處理？我看不懂啊！你們一方面在喊現在委員不夠，沒辦法運作，提名名單又不送來立法院，現在是在玩哪一齣啊？當然這不是你的責任啦！你也很無奈，因為你是代理主委嘛！奇怪了，卓榮泰為什麼都不提？還是他在下好大的一盤棋，讓你們沒辦法運作，這些假新聞通通都沒辦法處理，是這樣嗎？我完全看不懂啊！完全看不懂！","來！我繼續再往下看，所以現在很囂張耶！我們來看一下，這廣電媒體喔！年代說柯文哲的LINE、微信有把妹對話，非常露骨，這有沒有接到檢舉？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["黃委員國昌：處理的狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：已經上過諮詢會議了。"],["黃委員國昌：諮詢會議的結論是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：諮詢會議的意見是供委員會參考的，一般依照慣例是做成重要決定前的內部資訊。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？所以沒辦法透露就對了嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：根據政府資訊公開法，是不……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！所以現在委員會委員人數不夠，這個還是沒辦法處理，是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那就完全呼應我剛剛講的嘛！卓榮泰為什麼不提主委？就放任這些莫名其妙的媒體繼續造謠啊！每天晚上造謠，散播假訊息啊！民進黨政府有多可笑啊！一方面說要打假訊息，另外一方面縱容這一種幫民進黨大內宣的廣電媒體在散播假訊息。主委，看到這些假訊息會不會覺得很痛心？完全沒有事實根據，胡說八道，然後NCC也沒辦法處理，人民為什麼憤怒？人民為什麼憤怒？這就是人民憤怒的理由嘛！","來！我們再往下看，你們1月17號NCC的臉書說你們的業務費刪到1元，你們NCC的業務費有被刪到1元嗎？有嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這個時間點是在政黨提案撤案之前的回應，所以要把時間點……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所以在這個時間點，本院的院會討論過了沒有？有嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：當時……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有吧！應該沒有吧！本院的院會都還沒有討論過，它即使不撤案，你怎麼知道它會通過？你們NCC帶頭散播假訊息喔？大家有樣學樣啊！政媒一體啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，我們那時候是呼籲說這種情況如果發生的話，會有這種情境發生，所以我們認為說……"],["黃委員國昌：最後有刪到1元嗎？有還是沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：最後是因為那個案子撤掉了。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！就還沒有經過院會討論嘛！這麼急喔！幫忙配合做大內宣喔？難怪這些廣電媒體有樣學樣，有恃無恐啊！我們NCC就帶頭示範散播假訊息啦！我們大家蜂擁而上有什麼錯。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，當下是反應……"],["黃委員國昌：來！沒關係，你說打詐會遭到影響，來！來！來！2023年的時候，針對非常多檢察官，大家非常痛恨啊！NCC前面的管制沒有做好，結果讓這些詐騙集團拿到犯罪工具，那個時候翁柏宗講什麼？要求業者自律，這個聽不下去啦！你要求詐騙集團自律，這不是笑話嗎？違者最高可罰新臺幣500萬元，下一步要入法管制。我從去年就開始追，但奇怪了，偵結的第二類電信業者提供第二類電信給詐騙集團使用，檢察官都起訴了，然後你們都沒有處理，陳耀祥說什麼？我要等檢察官偵查結束才要去做行政裁處。來！檢察官偵查結束了沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：個案上都還沒有，但是跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：個案上還沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，有些……"],["黃委員國昌：雲林地方法院檢察署去年早就發新聞稿了，它偵查結束啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：抱歉，我剛才以為是法院判決。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！陳耀祥說要等到檢察官偵查起訴，才要去做行政裁處啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["黃委員國昌：偵查結束了沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：檢察官的階段是結束了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們要等到什麼時候做裁處？你們現在要跟我講說NCC的行政處分要等到法院確定判決喔？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：像海峽那些其實都已經處分、都已經裁處了。"],["黃委員國昌：你們處分什麼？"],["蔡處長國棟：二類電信業者海峽電信已經有裁處四百多萬。"],["黃委員國昌：飛速移動呢？"],["蔡處長國棟：飛速移動當時候它好像……那個實質的內容……"],["黃委員國昌：你看我上面畫紅框那個，代理主委你看一下，如果你業務不熟，我都幫你整理出來了。來！看一下，裁罰時間、內容與金額：無；裁罰時間、內容與金額：無；裁罰時間、內容與金額：無。奇怪！是發生什麼事？我看不懂啊！還是說因為人家很夠力，找到NCC前委員蕭祈宏當門神，所以NCC軟趴趴，是這樣嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：絕對不是，那是……"],["黃委員國昌：那如果不是，你跟大家解釋一下，一拖再拖啊！拖到現在啊！你還是沒處理啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分我們回去再了解，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：儘快，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內喔！好好跟大家講清楚，說錢不夠不能打詐，笑死人了！檢察官偵查都終結了，也都沒有裁罰，跟錢有什麼關係？錢給你，你還是沒做啊！一個禮拜喔！書面回復，好好解釋清楚啊！不要讓社會大眾說：「哇！原來詐騙集團只要找NCC的前委員當門神就沒事了。」可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一個禮拜可以，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝我們黃國昌委員。","主委，我特別要提醒一下，這裡是立法院，要約束所有的列席官員，要上臺提供給你資料，一定要對主席臺有所尊敬，這不是菜市場，這是立法院，彼此之間對於這些基本的禮數要尊重。別人的主持我不曉得，我很在意，你們如果不尊重，就是你們所說的話根本就是騙人的，所以這個我要提醒主委一下，這是要互相尊重，可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：可以，沒問題。"],["主席：好，接下來我們請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9002ded9f7c67d9a10f2ba64e6561398ad01f25d2de176b75bcf710b917354ebcad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:37:20 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不是是現在我看這個媒體已經開始報導有人因為這個AI聲音的變造透過AI去變造聲音進行這個詐騙進行詐騙那NCC有沒有注意到這個現象"},{"start":194.039,"end":220.293,"text":"有注意到所以我們是在這個他睡醒的工具裡頭來著手處理我們負責堵炸這一塊所以如果他即便他是用尾炸的聲音如果他是透過電話所以我們會有在這個打炸的電話裡頭來處理攔阻跟語音警示這一塊那如果說他都躲過我們現在的防禦的一些措施"},{"start":222.015,"end":247.396,"text":"剩餘的部分他在裡頭來用內容的部分那屬於這個我們這個網路上端的內容的部分不管他走網路還是走傳統的PSTN的網路他如果用這個偽造的聲音來處理這一塊電信的部分是比較沒有處理的一個空間空間比較小其實我簡單問你就知道了就譬如說我們以媒體報導的這幾個個案來講"},{"start":250.421,"end":275.433,"text":"那我們去查過他怎麼處理譬如說他直接透過打電話然後聲音就直接用AI的偽造的方式去處理那這個怎麼防NCC面對這些犯罪型態我們想過要怎麼去防堵沒有我們都是從他工具端來處理如果他這個我的意思是說你從工具端處理那這個工具是因為處理不了這個案子所以他受騙了還是什麼問題"},{"start":276.104,"end":281.349,"text":"就是說他工具所帶就是他這個工具所用的載體是一支電話那電話如果經過165通報我們就會給他阻斷"},{"start":285.06,"end":310.89,"text":"對那所以換言之其實事後啦等於說有人報案他被騙了那我們再去事後阻斷是那還有沒有其他更積極的做法就是說因為這個未來一定很多啦我跟主席講這個隨著AI的技術發展或許這個叫七成像六成像嘛然後加上被害者心理緊張所以他很容易就六成像七成像他就受騙了那未來一定是99%像"},{"start":313.099,"end":337.551,"text":"現在這個不叫未雨綢繆,那個不是陰天而已啦未雨綢繆是看到天氣已經烏雨密布可能要下雨現在是已經下毛毛細雨了,不久之後就要傾盆大雨了所以那個雨傘,到底我們的政府準備好沒有因為這個你要防止很困難,因為聲音實在太像了我看到這個新聞我都打電話給我媽媽"},{"start":339.617,"end":361.172,"text":"這部分我們其實現有的機制就是市長的宣導市長的素養這邊要提升對這個叫做宣導就像我打電話給我媽媽叫她說要注意一下接到一個聲音很像我的只要談到錢你都先暫時等一下再會這叫宣導嘛除了這種宣導之外我們還有在"},{"start":362.353,"end":370.463,"text":"國家面對新的技術的詐騙那我們有什麼樣圍堵或者處理的方法有在做這樣的準備沒有"},{"start":371.584,"end":397.407,"text":"AI部分行政院有在統合在國科會那邊有在統合各個部會包括NCC也有在盤點我們現在我們所掌管業者的不管是傳播業者他在製作的內容或者變性的部分目前都有盤點大致都是要求比方說你資訊要揭露如果說你是使用AI的部分你要揭露他是使用AI生成的等等之類的那如果說是在"},{"start":398.703,"end":427.866,"text":"通訊傳播事業之外的像這種詐騙集團所用的這是個體都是個人對個人或者詐騙集團對一般民眾的部分那目前看起來還是這個房價市價的素養的能力這邊要提升就是先前行政院打造團隊都有提醒民眾要三不三要就是要警覺要確認這塊的大概要普遍讓民眾有個警覺就是即便是聲音很像自己的親人也要在家確認就確務清醒"},{"start":428.066,"end":440.063,"text":"好 主委 就是說其實我沒有什麼特別因為我知道現在還沒有方法啦還沒有方法 那我只是先提醒啦就是說 宣導這個我覺得不用再做任何"},{"start":441.485,"end":459.879,"text":"技術再怎麼發展還是要宣導就詐騙集團技術再怎麼研發創新宣導都還是要做但除了宣導之外我只是提醒不是陰天而已啦不是烏雨密布現在是已經萌萌細雨了那接著就要晴蓬大雨了"},{"start":460.399,"end":476.016,"text":"所以未來像這種身為的詐騙當開始氾濫的時候那個時候恐怕立法院不是蔡其昌一個人在這裡講這些問題而已那時候恐怕又是一個社會國家面臨重大挑戰的一個事情所以這個齁"},{"start":477.657,"end":500.672,"text":"不是只有NCC嘛 你抒發部 你的警政署 法務部你們怎麼去共同聯合在面對這些打詐的行動裡面怎麼隨著科技的發展所延伸出來的負面就AI的發展大家很期待嘛 很期許然後也覺得可以帶給人類社會很多的方便但同樣的犯罪集團也用這樣的方式來進行更多的詐騙嘛"},{"start":502.079,"end":507.653,"text":"最後我要請教一下我們有一個叫做業者自律就是讓大家"},{"start":510.84,"end":529.206,"text":"網路內容申訴案件的業者自律這個成績我看了一下好像參加自律的111年30家112年增加31家差不多一年增加30家但是我們的申訴的案件111年2700112年3000113年6100"},{"start":537.318,"end":554.431,"text":"那個NCC要不要說明一下這個自律參加的人為什麼數量其實三十六十就算不要講三十六三百好了啦是這還是很少很少很少的根本的報告這是申訴案件是IWIN受理到的那去年因為隨著這個網路使用的"},{"start":555.632,"end":584.932,"text":"普及所以這個案件預期會增加那去年特別暴增是因為去年有兩個個案都是日本的一個遊戲軟體裡頭有一些個案在有發生IWIN受到大量的一些申訴另外還有一些遊戲軟體的一些都是幼稚園事件其實因為時間到了我不好意思沒辦法再聽你把它詳細講完但我只是提醒你"},{"start":585.652,"end":613.05,"text":"第一個案件增加的趨勢這個我想應該不是不需要懷疑啦他就因為大家開始有意識了嘛這些違反兒少法的相關的這些在網路上面這些東西很多家長開始習慣要檢舉啊透過怎麼樣的方式去去跟政府說明表達這個對這個的不滿意所以增加這個不需要再多花時間去解釋那更重要的是我們為什麼自律的案件這麼少啦就是說自律的業者"},{"start":613.951,"end":639.549,"text":"以一個國家來講30家來參加我們的自律這個也未免太看不起NCC了吧所以這個我覺得應該是找出原因來啦為什麼自律的業者大家都不願意來參加這個自律自律都不願意了自律現在講自律現在不是講他們違規我們要去處罰他們連自律參與度都那麼低了所以這第一個我想提醒這為什麼原因把它找出來第二個違反兒少法的"},{"start":640.109,"end":650.905,"text":"就除了自律之外你對於違反兒少法你們該怎麼處分我覺得應該也要那個法令的執行也要隨時在後啦好不好因為時間的關係我就今天就下一次我們有機會再來討論謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時37分）謝謝主席。請陳代理主委。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。早上大家應該都很關心NCC通傳會委員人數不足，導致通傳會所執行的很多相關業務，因委員人數不足面臨停擺，或必須提短暫因應措施一事，本席覺得這是很嚴重的事。我看現在到期的兩家，實際頻道名稱是MTV Live頻道，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：現階段還沒有太大爭議，畢竟不是社會注目的焦點。但如果有一天國家持續被癱瘓，讓NCC的委員人數一直不足，而未來如果出現了一個眾人皆認為應該要停照的業者，因其犯罪非常明顯，內容也非常離譜，但在現行架構底下，我們是沒有辦法停照的，它還是會繼續存在，有其他方法嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，委員確實說到重點。從另外一個角度來看，優質、優良頻道續存的視聽權益都存在，但如果是一個比較相對，在光譜另外一端的情況，以目前NCC的處境來說，確實是很尷尬的灰色地帶，也沒有辦法很明顯處理，即經營權得喪變更這一塊確實是目前無法處理的，因為委員會沒辦法組成。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我剛剛特別提到，這個階段大家之所以關心，因為這是國家運作制度上的挑戰，所以大家會共同關心，但現在還不是最嚴峻的時候。因此我必須提醒，這件事要趕快想方法解決。本席今天還有一個很重要的重點，對於現在大家談到透過聲音，也就是透過AI進行所謂的深偽，這個並不是未來式，因為它並不是未來AI發展到一個程度就會出現這種詐騙型態，不是，是現在我看到媒體已經開始報導有人因為AI聲音的變造，透過AI去變造聲音進行詐騙，NCC有沒有注意到這個現象？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有注意到，所以我們是在他遂行的工具裡頭來著手處理，我們負責堵詐這一塊，所以即便他是用偽造的聲音，如果他是透過電話，我們會在打詐的電話裡頭來處理攔阻跟語音警示這一塊。如果他能躲過我們現在的一些防禦措施後，剩餘的部分他在裡頭來用，內容的部分屬於我們網路上端內容的部分，不管他走網路，還是走傳統的PSTN的網路，他如果用偽造的聲音來處理，這一塊我們在電信部分是比較沒有處理的空間，空間比較小。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，其實我簡單問你就知道了，譬如說，我們以媒體報導的這幾個個案來講，我們去查過，發現他怎麼處理，譬如說，他直接透過打電話，然後聲音就直接用AI偽造的方式去處理，那這個怎麼防堵？NCC面對這些犯罪型態，有沒有想過要怎麼去防堵？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們都是從他的工具端來處理，如果他這個……"],["蔡委員其昌：不、不，我的意思是說既然你是從工具端處理，那這個工具是因為處理不了這個案子，所以他受騙了，還是什麼問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：當他這個工具所用的載體是一支電話，而且電話如果有經過165通報，我們就會給他阻斷。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以換言之，其實是事後啦，等於說有人報案他被騙了，那我們再去事後阻斷。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：那還有沒有其他更積極的作法？因為這個未來一定很多啦，我跟主委講，隨著AI的技術發展，或許這個叫七成像、六成像嘛，然後加上被害者心理緊張，所以他很容易在六成像、七成像下就受騙了，未來一定是99%像，現在這個不叫未雨綢繆，因為那個不是陰天而已啦，未雨綢繆是看到天氣已經烏雲密佈，可能要下雨了，現在是已經下毛毛細雨，不久之後就要傾盆大雨了，所以那個雨傘到底我們的政府準備好沒有？因為這個你要防止很困難，畢竟聲音實在太像了嘛，對不對？我看到這個新聞，我都打電話給我媽媽。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分我們現有的機制，其實就是識詐的宣導、識詐素養要提升……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這個叫做宣導，就像我打電話給我媽媽叫她要注意一下，接到一個聲音很像我的，只要談到錢，你都先暫時等一下再匯，這叫宣導嘛！除了這種宣導之外，國家面對新的技術的詐騙，我們有什麼樣圍堵或者處理的方法？有在做這樣的準備嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：AI的部分，行政院有在統合，國科會那邊有在統合，各個部會，包括NCC也有在盤點現在我們所掌管業者的，不管是傳播業者，針對他製作的內容或者電信的部分，目前都有盤點，大概都是要求比方你資訊要揭露，如果你是使用AI的部分，你要揭露它是使用AI生成等等之類的。如果說是在通訊傳播事業之外的，像這種詐騙集團所用的，這個是個體，就是個人對個人，或者詐騙集團對一般民眾的部分，目前看起來還是防詐、識詐素養的能力要提升，就是先前行政院打詐團隊都有提醒民眾三不、三要，就是要警覺、要確認，這一塊大概要普遍讓民眾有這個警覺，就是即便是聲音很像自己的親人，也要再加確認，切勿輕信。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，其實我沒有什麼特別要求，因為我知道現在還沒有方法啦，還沒有方法，但我只是先提醒，就是說，宣導部分，我覺得不用再做，任何技術再怎麼發展還是要宣導。詐騙集團技術再怎麼研發，創新，宣導都還是要做，但除了宣導之外，我只是提醒不是陰天而已，不是烏雲密布，現在已經是濛濛細雨，接著就要傾盆大雨了，所以未來像這種深偽的詐騙，當它開始氾濫的時候，那個時候恐怕立法院不是蔡其昌一個人在這裡講這些問題而已，那時候恐怕又是一個社會、國家面臨重大挑戰的事情，所以這個不是只有NCC，數發部、警政署、法務部，你們怎麼去共同聯合，面對這些打詐的行動裡面，怎麼隨著科技的發展所延伸出來的負面，就是AI的發展，大家很期待、很期許嘛，然後也覺得可以帶給人類社會很多的方便，但同樣的，犯罪集團也用這樣的方式來進行更多的詐騙嘛。","最後，我要請教一下，我們有一個作法叫做業者自律，就是讓網路內容申訴案件的業者自律，這個成績我看了一下，好像參加自律的111年有30家，112年增加31家，差不多一年增加30家啦，但是我們申訴的案件，111年2,700，112年3,000，113年6,100。NCC要不要說明一下，自律參加的家數為什麼數量這麼少？其實30、60，就算是300好了，還是很少、很少、很少的。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，申訴案件是iWIN受理到的，去年因為隨著網路使用的普及，所以案件預期會增加，去年特別暴增是因為去年有兩個個案，都是日本的遊戲軟體、game裡頭有一些個案，有發生iWIN受到大量的申訴。另外還有遊戲軟體的一些，都是因為幼稚園事件，幼稚園要納入個案……"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，其實因為時間到了，我不好意思，沒辦法再聽你把它詳細講完，但我只是提醒你，第一個，案件增加的趨勢，這個我想應該不需要懷疑啦，因為大家開始有意識了嘛，這些違反兒少法的相關規定，在網路上面出現這些東西，很多家長會習慣性去檢舉，透過怎麼樣的方式去跟政府說明，表達對這個部分的不滿意，所以增加的部分不需要再多花時間去解釋。更重要的是，為什麼我們自律的案件這麼少？就是說，自律的業者以一個國家來講，30家來參加我們的自律，這個也未免太看不起NCC了吧，所以這個部分我覺得應該要找出原因來啦，為什麼自律的部分，業者大家都不願意來參加這個自律，自律都不願意了，自律耶，現在講自律，現在不是講他們違規，我們要去處罰他們，連自律參與度都那麼低了，所以這是第一個我想要提醒齁，請將為什麼的原因把它找出來。","第二個，違反兒少法的部分，就是除了自律之外，對於違反兒少法，你們該怎麼處分，我覺得應該也要，法令的執行也要隨伺在後啦，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間的關係，我今天就質詢到此，下一次我們有機會再來討論，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","接下來請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},{"id":"159683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900624583209195d6a42ba64e6561398ad01f25d2de176b75bc61f7c7b81f9a4fed5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:26:43 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請一下陳代理主委好 陳代理主委"},{"start":11.551,"end":30.647,"text":"主委你好我看我們NCC的委員現在委員的人數不足當然他也影響到多家的業者他們換照的這個時程當然大家都知道在6月30號之前因為面臨執照屆期的廣電還有相關的未廣事業總共有37家"},{"start":32.068,"end":47.325,"text":"那無線廣播有25家無線的電視有4家那未廣的頻道有8家事業還有9個頻道那在這邊我要請教一下主委那相關的6月底屆時如果無法販照會面臨兩個問題"},{"start":50.188,"end":66.566,"text":"第一個問題當然就是無法播出停止播出第二個問題就是說它執照失效但是它繼續的這種播出其實就面臨到一個法律的灰色地帶那NCC在處理的原則是什麼來簡單說明一下"},{"start":68.457,"end":85.095,"text":"公文報告關於停止播音這一塊的一律部分在如果是上有線電視系統的話因為有線電視如果他是列屬基本頻道的話根據流廣法29條規定他必須要到我們NCC來核准經過委員會核准"},{"start":86.977,"end":109.737,"text":"那也剛好因為現在沒有辦法組成NCC委員會議所以如果他是列組基本頻道的部分基本上剛好兩個法會互相有一個協力部分所以基本上是不會被下架現在受影響的業者啊他們是依法無門要合法無土啊我看我這個台北"},{"start":111.464,"end":132.899,"text":"營業股份有限公司就是NTV跟Nick Junior兩個頻道的所有者他們在2月21日向台北高等行政法院遞交定暫時的狀態處分但是法院沒有受理那法院駁回的理由他認為說NCC還是具有裁量的這個空間法院不能越處代跑"},{"start":134.02,"end":146.393,"text":"這份駁回其實它也顯示行政人士的辭職會導致業者依法無門合法無土面對這樣的困境主委讓你補充說明一下"},{"start":147.242,"end":175.848,"text":"是那業者救濟部分目前都遇到阻礙那我們也可以理解說在這種情況之下後續的處理當然是建議平台業者能夠基於保障消費視聽眾的權益及公共利益來考量來為優先考量在剛剛說明如果他是在有線電視的基本隸屬基本頻道部分因為他要報主委你說希望業者以這樣的一個"},{"start":177.83,"end":201.901,"text":"民眾的收視收聽的權利啊為優先的原則那要怎麼去處理呢我看我們這個通傳會在2月20號有召開學者專家的這個諮詢會議啊各方當然對於是否構成違法與是否裁法其實是有不同的意見但是他的共識啊"},{"start":203.82,"end":216.376,"text":"大家都認為是沒有辦法透過暫時的執照或是法院的指揮或是分層覺醒的方式來做處理那你們的態度跟原則來說明一下"},{"start":217.535,"end":240.583,"text":"是的即便是林照等等部分都要委員會來處理暫時執照不可行對沒錯法院也提出明確的一個看法了那分層覺醒的處理方式也沒有辦法去落實相關這種執照停播與否的這樣的一個法律灰色地帶"},{"start":241.973,"end":261.981,"text":"對因為我們組織法第九條第二項的第五款這個經營權的得上變更的處理必須是委員會議的保留事項這邊目前三個委員的質疑會議是沒有辦法處理的那至於部分保障市聽眾權益的部分我們持續會跟平台來講"},{"start":263.422,"end":278.839,"text":"大致上是我們會做兩個動作那換照的業者我們會發一個觀念通知函給他告訴他說你的申請換照我們已經進行到的100公尺已經進行到90公尺了你們沒有故意過失所以在我們也會給"},{"start":280.12,"end":308.122,"text":"平臺業者包括有限電視 包括中華電信MOD告訴他說平臺上頭的頻道業者目前的換照情況是這樣子的那基於維護公共利益跟刺激性權益以及你們的法尊有限電視的法尊你要下架基本頻道必須要報NCC委員會通過那剛好這邊會有協力去處理部分所以目前大致的我們目前處理方式是這樣子"},{"start":308.462,"end":326.899,"text":"我們現在通傳會在2024年的12月1日開始剩下三位委員我們國家通信傳播委員會的組織法它所規定開會的最低開會人數是四人所以現在目前開會就是開不成 來說明一下"},{"start":327.66,"end":345.573,"text":"是的在94年NCC組織法制定的階段裡頭在行政院版的立法說明就已經講是全體委員括弧七人當時第一版是七個人就是法定人額的整體總額所以那邊就已經"},{"start":347.134,"end":361.06,"text":"主委說明一下我們現在人數只剩下三人很多的會議沒有辦法召開那所受到影響的電信資訊以及媒體相關的業務佔了我們的業務的幾%來說明一下"},{"start":365.369,"end":383.103,"text":"主要的部分以案件數來換因為我們每年有一萬多件的處分案那這裡頭有很多是有線電視的頻道上下架這一塊是很大的主體其他相對於根據組織法九條二項五款之外"},{"start":383.823,"end":409.777,"text":"委員會沒有保留事項的部分我們還可以做分層授權的方式來處理那跟民眾關係比較重大的跟視聽大眾有關主要是傳播那一塊還有這個電信的部分當然是涉及到根據九條二項五款是必須要有那個進行執照得上變更的部分才會有影響主要的影響最大的還是在傳播領域這邊好 主委有的人說那"},{"start":410.757,"end":422.945,"text":"要四個人才可以開會那三個人不可以開嗎當然是不行啦因為我們的組織法第十條第三項就明文規定委員總額的過半數同意"},{"start":423.993,"end":445.462,"text":"就是說它是法定總和7人之過半數而不是現有人數的過半數應該是這樣嗎是的沒錯好另外我們的組織法第4條裡面明文規定我們的通訊傳播委員會的委員是必須具有電信資訊法律財經等相關背景的人來共同組成"},{"start":446.542,"end":465.49,"text":"那就是希望說他是透過專業的分工然後集體的角色這樣的原則在處理相關的議題那如果是三個人的話就會失於偏頗或是過於壟斷相關的這種專業的領域的專業分工這也會造成影響來說明一下"},{"start":466.704,"end":494.605,"text":"委員說到重點我們組織法第四條委員的組成有經濟、電信、傳播、法治那目前我們的剩下的三位委員裡頭缺乏傳播的所以這一部分要處理傳播的部分本來就是專業的多元性本來就是師之益與那其他的部分其他即便是電信那是也有一些產業或者一些涉及到匯流的時代也會有一些傳播的議題那這邊都是相對沒辦法處理的"},{"start":495.365,"end":523.682,"text":"更何況是剛剛委員所提到的這個要法定人員的過半這邊都是沒有辦法來組成委員會好 主委我們現在已經提到暫時執照沒有辦法處理法院的指揮沒有辦法處理分層覺醒的方式也沒有辦法去處理那我簡單兩個建議第一個NCC是否能夠主動發函建議業者來維持現有的播出然後我們要提供行政解釋跟法律的一個"},{"start":524.922,"end":551.77,"text":"緩衝的空間 這個有沒有問題包委員沒有問題 我們先前處理台北營業兩家就是這種方式處理 我們後續也會照這種方式來繼續處理好 在相關的法令的程序上如果說NCC的人士啊 辭職無法避免沒有辦法解決啦 如果有這種狀況是否能夠盡速的公告暫行的處理原則來 在法令上來 請主委說明一下"},{"start":552.797,"end":575.068,"text":"我們會透過這個資訊對外揭露方式比方說記者會、新聞稿還有其實相關的利害關係的業者他們大概都會有收到這方面訊息就像之前那兩家台北營業的那兩家還有未來其他35家我們大概都會循這方式處理那會讓他們知道就是兩個剛剛前面跟委員報告過的"},{"start":576.169,"end":593.685,"text":"官員通知他你的換照進駐你沒有故意過失你進行到100公尺的90公尺然後告訴平台業者你要尊重視聽眾權益以及你如果要下架處理要有法徵 法徵必須要經過委員會通過這些我們都會適時適切的把這資訊對外來公開"},{"start":595.427,"end":620.023,"text":"好 相關NCC的業務其實是對於民生對於國家的發展它影響非常的重要不管是電信資訊或者是影視相關的產業以及廣大的使用者相關的權益NCC還是要站在第一線來捍衛民眾的權利這個必須要加強努力是 我們會繼續努力好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時26分）謝謝召委，請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：你好。"],["李委員昆澤：主委你好。我們NCC委員人數不足，當然這也影響到多家業者換照的時程，當然大家都知道，在6月30號之前，面臨執照屆期的廣電還有相關衛廣事業，總共有37家，包括無線廣播有25家、無線電視有4家、衛廣頻道有8家，然後還有9個頻道，在此請教一下主委，若6月底無法換照，屆時會面臨兩個問題，第一個問題，當然就是無法播出、停止播出；第二個問題，它執照失效但是它繼續播出，其實就會面臨到法律的灰色地帶，而NCC處理的原則是什麼？請簡單說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，關於停止播音這一塊疑慮的部分，如果是有線電視系統的話，因為有線電視如果列屬基本頻道的話，根據有廣法第二十九條規定，必須報我們NCC並經過委員會議核准，因為現在沒有辦法組成NCC委員會議，所以如果它是列屬基本頻道，剛好兩個法互相會有一個協力部分，所以基本上是不會被下架。"],["李委員昆澤：現在受影響的業者是依法無門、合法無途。台北影業股份有限公司，就是MTV跟Nick 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沒有"},{"start":107.967,"end":126.003,"text":"從11月28號到現在NCC委員名單沒有被送出來但我覺得這樣子其實我不知道陳代理主委您是刻意要裝迷糊還是你對本機關業務完全不關心或不了解現在我們NCC委員有幾位三位"},{"start":127.574,"end":143.215,"text":"那我們最近有很多的一個狀況包括是說這個委員人數不足半數所以說廣電換照停擺媒體有報導有看到吧有看到嘛你麥克風就不要關了吧好不好就是這樣子大家才可以比較有收音"},{"start":145.955,"end":169.709,"text":"廣電換照停擺因為講的是說NCC委員的人數不足那現在是行政院NCC委員名單沒有重提四個月了都沒有提出來過我們代理處有沒有去關心一下說到底奇怪院長你徵詢的狀況因為緊鑼密鼓請教一下緊鑼密鼓一般來講我們社會大眾對於緊鑼密鼓的感覺是什麼"},{"start":172.034,"end":196.904,"text":"積極加速辦理對吧是是那積極加速辦理四個月了行政院都沒有提出任何一個名單有沒有找您討論過沒有也沒有找您討論過有沒有問一下說NCC這樣停擺因為人數不足那我行政院的權責我要提出NCC的委員名單但是你NCC停擺人數不足那"},{"start":198.322,"end":224.856,"text":"NCC不去問一下行政院說到底你緊鑼密鼓的狀況是怎麼樣剛剛主委講沒有也沒有被問那行政院長他現在在想什麼你也不清楚不清楚然後就讓NCC擺爛放著沒有辦法審查我們所謂37家廣電事業無法換照媒體前兩天有報導有看到吧大家都劍指NCC啊"},{"start":227.23,"end":250.062,"text":"那你NCC現在怎麼樣 裝無辜跟委員報告 換奏的程序是一系列的在上委員會之前的程序我們都有如實去進行是嘛 一個月前我就看到你們有新聞稿出來了嘛主任秘書還出來講啊 就只差最後一關啊就是NCC委員的開會嘛 是不是但現在NCC委員為什麼沒有辦法開會"},{"start":251.684,"end":279.519,"text":"就是不足法定原額的一半以上是啊你很理解啊不足法定原額一半以上啊那現在名單沒有提是誰的問題相關權責單位的相關權責單位是誰組織法規定組織法第四條規定應該是行政院長的職權所以很明白清楚了相關權責單位的問題而現在組織法規定的就是行政院長的權責"},{"start":280.987,"end":304.374,"text":"主委感謝喔 講了大白話來我們再看下一張您昨天的新聞稿NCC是專業多元獨立委員委員會決議應該由半數同意這是你們昨天發的新聞稿嘛對不對對 全天然後呢 本席也覺得很好奇啊我看你們新聞稿裡面沒有寫到"},{"start":305.475,"end":323.315,"text":"沒有把鍋甩給立法院沒有講說立法院要審查但是新聞報導出來怎麼樣多了一段話來我們看下一張新聞報導裡面他的標題居然是NCC呼應立法院要審議委員名單啊那我們再看內文"},{"start":328.163,"end":350.105,"text":"前三段跟你的新聞稿是一致的但多出了最後一段他說NCC指出問題的根源在於立法院無法及時審查行政院的委員名單導致於委員人數不足是這樣子嗎是這樣子嗎所以我就回到一開始我們講的來第一張"},{"start":352.546,"end":378.262,"text":"重提NCC委員名單行政院說卓龍泰僅羅密谷徵詢中四個月過去了名單沒有提出來名單沒有提出來沒有辦法送來立法院沒有辦法排進交通委員會的審查所以我們根本沒有辦法審查主委要不要了解一下是誰又在放消息放話"},{"start":379.346,"end":404.918,"text":"要把郭 你剛剛講得很清楚 我想你也很理解講了這個是行政院檔的權責 他沒有提出名單那NCC委員內部還有這種不同意見還要把郭甩給立法院跟委員報告NCC的委員每個都是獨立行使他的職權然後他有個人的言論自由這部分我們沒有特別的意見"},{"start":406.667,"end":418.96,"text":"個人言論之有沒有特別意見但講錯了是不是應該要讓他了解一下真實的狀況您今天的詢答的內容可以回去跟NCC委員來說明一下因為很顯然的"},{"start":420.919,"end":447.295,"text":"有NCC委員不了解實際的內容實際的狀況透過今天的詢答就是告訴大家NCC委員名單到目前為止四個月行政院長沒有提出來而過去這段時間其實我也必須要說上禮拜五本席就已經排總質詢了那很遺憾因為被執政黨的委員被民進黨委員去佔據主席台所以上禮拜五沒有辦法質詢禮拜二沒有辦法質詢"},{"start":448.49,"end":474.922,"text":"但是看到文武百官我們所有官員跟行政院長都在立法院啊那主委沒有打算或考慮或是了解一下問一下你的上級長官問一下行政院到底什麼時候要送名單嗎徵詢現在狀況如何如果提得出專業公正客觀的名單出來讓國人眼睛為之一亮我想立法院沒有不接受的理由啊"},{"start":476.907,"end":494.689,"text":"趕快讓他能夠上路能夠趕快讓NCC開會我相信召委也都願意排案不管是國城召委不管是民進黨的召委我相信都會願意排案但重點是你現在連送進來都不送進來的話我們要怎麼排要怎麼審查NCC要繼續停擺嗎"},{"start":496.411,"end":521.505,"text":"NCC沒有停擺NCC沒有停擺非常好啊所以你剛所以之前講說什麼藍白預算不管是刪除還凍結會造成停擺也沒有嘛因為剛剛代理主委已經正式的跟大家講NCC沒有停擺啊但是NCC的委員會沒有辦法開是事實啊那為什麼沒有辦法開就是因為行政院長沒有提出被選的人選送來立法院讓立法院審查嘛"},{"start":522.265,"end":526.248,"text":"是不是主委不要再甩鍋了我說實在話從開始到現在因為你是代理主委我對你客氣但"},{"start":538.035,"end":563.954,"text":"你私下來拜會我們幾個交通委員會委員的時候我也跟你提過我絕對對事不對人今天的狀況很明顯行政院長要提出來名單四個月沒有提行政院長在忙什麼我會問行政院長你是不是在忙著宣傳下鄉宣講所以該做的正式不做但國家是要運作的NCC是獨立機關"},{"start":565.72,"end":576.188,"text":"如果說你今天四個月你可以放著持續然後現在有37家媒體都報導有37家業者可能上半年就面臨到管電事業無法換照誰的責任影響到全國400萬500萬的收聽戶權益誰的責任這些都沒有辦法自圓其說的我拜託"},{"start":592.182,"end":613.158,"text":"NCC已經從上一任的主委讓大家已經看到因人設事或是大家已經是看顏色辦事到現在你代理主委有點風骨有點肩膀我還期待留在NCC的委員能夠把真實的聲音告訴現在的執政黨真的做些事情"},{"start":619.485,"end":644.552,"text":"本席會繼續追因為下個禮拜也有排相關NCC的那個法令條文但我們更希望的是把事實真相還原不要附和現在執政黨刻意扭曲污衊抹黑的宣傳NCC是獨立自主的機關希望代理主委跟我們所有NCC的同仁記住這一點謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":177,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時15分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳代理主委。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，代理主委好。代理主委請您回答、請您回答、請您回答，開麥克風。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：您不清楚要回答什麼對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我還沒問嘛！一樣的道理，行政院也還沒有把NCC的委員名單送進立法院，立法院也沒有辦法審查。","我們來看一下第一張，這是去年11月28日重提NCC委員名單，行政院告訴全國民眾，卓榮泰現在正緊鑼密鼓地徵詢中。11月28號到現在3月27號，整整4個月的時間，請教一下陳代理主委，NCC的委員名單從行政院送來立法院了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這一塊的權責應該不在於NCC。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是在權責，我只是要跟您請教，您知道NCC的委員名單，從行政院送出立法院了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有送出，是去年送出的。"],["洪委員孟楷：去年送出？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是第一版的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：11月28號重提NCC委員名單，您再看清楚一下，是「重提NCC委員名單」，所以到目前為止行政院有重提NCC委員名單了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：不清楚？是沒有還是不清楚？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：真的不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：你不清楚？那本席很負責地告訴你，沒有。從11月28號到現在，NCC委員的名單沒有被送出來，但我覺得這樣子其實……我不知道陳代理主委您是刻意要裝迷糊，還是你對本機關業務完全不關心或不瞭解？現在我們NCC委員有幾位？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：3位。"],["洪委員孟楷：3位。我們最近有很多的狀況，包括委員人數不足半數，所以廣電換照停擺，媒體的報導有看到吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有看到嘛，你的麥克風就不要關了，好不好？這樣子，大家才可以比較好收音。","廣電換照停擺，因為講的是NCC委員的人數不足，現在是行政院NCC委員名單沒有重提，4個月了都沒有提出來過，代理主委有沒有去關心一下？奇怪，院長徵詢的狀況到底……因為是「緊鑼密鼓」耶！請教一下，一般來講社會大眾對「緊鑼密鼓」的感覺是什麼？積極加速辦理，對吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：積極加速辦理4個月了，行政院都沒有提出任何一個名單？有沒有找您討論過？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有找您討論過。有沒有問一下NCC這樣停擺，因為人數不足，行政院的權責要提出NCC的委員名單，但是NCC停擺人數不足，NCC不去問一下行政院到底緊鑼密鼓的狀況是怎樣？剛剛主委是講「沒有」，也沒有被問，那行政院長現在是在想什麼？你也不清楚？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：不清楚，然後就讓NCC擺爛、放著，沒有辦法審查所謂37家廣電事業，讓他們無法換照。媒體前兩天的報導有看到吧？大家都劍指NCC啊！那你NCC現在是怎麼樣？裝無辜？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，換照的程序是一系列的，在上委員會之前的程序，我們都有如實進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！一個月前我就看到你們有新聞稿出來了嘛！主任秘書還出來講，就只差最後一關，就是NCC委員的開會嘛，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就差……"],["洪委員孟楷：但現在NCC委員為什麼沒有辦法開會？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是不足法定員額的一半以上，所以沒有辦法開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！你很理解啊！不足法定員額的一半以上啊！那現在名單沒有提出是誰的問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：相關權責單位。"],["洪委員孟楷：相關權責單位是誰？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：組織法第四條規定，這應該是行政院長的職權。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以很明白清楚了，是相關權責單位的問題，依現行組織法規定，這就是行政院長的權責，感謝主委講了大白話。","再來，您昨天的新聞稿提到，NCC為專業多元獨立委員會；委員會議之決議應有過半數之同意。這是你們昨天發的新聞稿，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，是前天發的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席也很好奇，你們的新聞稿裡面沒有寫到、沒有把鍋甩給立法院、沒有說立法院要審查，但是新聞報導出來時卻多了一段話，新聞報導裡面的標題居然是「NCC呼籲立法院審議委員名單」；我們再來看內文，前三段跟你的新聞稿是一致的，但多出了最後一段「NCC指出問題的根源在於立法院無法即時審查行政院的委員名單，導致於委員人數不足」是這樣子嗎？","所以回到一開始講的「重提NCC委員名單，行政院說：卓榮泰緊鑼密鼓徵詢中」，4個月過去了，名單沒有提出來，沒有辦法送來立法院，沒有辦法排進交通委員會的審查，所以我們根本沒有辦法審查，主委要不要了解一下，是誰又在放消息、放話？你剛剛講得很清楚，我想你很理解，也講了這是行政院長的權責，而他沒有提出名單，但NCC委員內部還是有這種不同意見，還是要把鍋甩給立法院嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，NCC的委員每個都是獨立行使他的職權，然後他也有個人的言論自由，這部分我沒有特別的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：個人言論自由，沒有特別意見，但講錯了是不是應該要讓他了解一下真實的狀況？就您今天的詢答內容，回去應可以跟NCC委員說明一下，很顯然的，有NCC委員不了解實際的內容、實際的狀況，透過今天的詢答就是告訴大家，NCC委員名單，到目前為止，4個月過去了，行政院長都沒有提出來，而過去這段時間，其實我也必須要說，上禮拜五本席就已經排總質詢了，很遺憾地，因為被執政黨委員、民進黨委員占據主席臺，所以上禮拜五我沒有辦法質詢、這個禮拜二沒有辦法質詢，但是看到文武百官，所有的官員跟行政院長都在立法院，主委沒有打算或是考慮問一下你的上級長官、問一下行政院，到底什麼時候要送出名單嗎？就是徵詢一下現在的狀況如何。","基本上，如果提出的是專業、公正、客觀的名單，讓國人眼睛為之一亮，我想立法院沒有不接受的理由，趕快讓它能夠上路，趕快讓NCC開會，我相信召委也都願意排案，不管是國成召委，不管是民進黨的召委，我相信都會願意排案，但重點是你現在連送進來都不送進來的話，我們要怎麼排案、要怎麼審查？NCC要繼續停擺嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：NCC沒有停擺。"],["洪委員孟楷：NCC沒有停擺，非常好啊！所以之前說藍白把預算不管是刪除或凍結，這樣會造成停擺，這也沒有嘛！因為剛剛代理主委已經正式跟大家講，NCC沒有停擺啊！但是NCC的委員會沒有辦法開是事實，為什麼沒有辦法開？就是因為行政院長沒有提出備選的人選並送來立法院審查，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：但是預算如果被砍到骨頭那邊，真的就沒辦法運作、會停擺！"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，不要再甩鍋了，說實在話，從開始到現在，因為你是代理主委，我對你客氣，但你私下拜會我們幾個交通委員會委員的時候，我也跟你提過，我絕對對事不對人，今天的狀況很明顯，行政院長要提出名單，但4個月過去了，沒有提，行政院長在忙什麼？我會問行政院長，是不是在忙著宣傳、下鄉宣講，所以該做的正事不做？但國家是要運作的，NCC是獨立機關，如果今天4個月過了你可以持續放著，然後現在媒體都報導，有37家業者可能上半年就面臨到廣電事業無法換照，誰的責任？影響到全國四百萬、五百萬收聽戶的權益，誰的責任？這些都沒有辦法自圓其說的。","我拜託NCC，從上一任的主委，都已經讓大家看到是因人設事或是看顏色辦事，到現在你代理主委，希望能有點風骨、有點肩膀，我也期待留在NCC的委員，能夠把真實的聲音告訴現在的執政黨，請真的做些事情，本席會繼續追，因為下個禮拜也有安排NCC相關法令條文的審查，但我們更希望把事實真相還原，不要附和現在執政黨刻意扭曲、污衊、抹黑的宣傳，NCC是獨立自主的機關，希望代理主委跟我們所有NCC的同仁記住這一點，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。接下來請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","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必路難旅那從1920年代台灣第一批接受現代化教育的知識分子就開始活躍起來所以台灣人的意識也在那個時候開始萌芽那當時的行動者就發現其實文化實際上是一個抵抗殖民政策的戰場所以才必須要建設台灣的文化而不是純粹的模仿中國"},{"start":123.38,"end":145.07,"text":"也唯有這樣子我們才能所謂的真正獨當一面來促進社會的進步那這種在文化工作上的努力其實我們至今也沒有停止過那台灣人的努力也常常成為政治打壓的目標就如同日本殖民者透過黃民化的運動那試圖改造台灣人這個文化的認同那持續"},{"start":146.571,"end":173.378,"text":"殖民地體制的中國國民黨他就長期利用黨國的教育來貶低台灣的文化到了2025的今天同樣又是中國國民黨又利用思想的審查政治懲戒的方式來大煽大動我們台灣珍貴的文化資產那這一次文化部預算總共被刪除11億凍結了34億那其中媒體宣傳費"},{"start":174.998,"end":198.553,"text":"更是全部被刪除所以不只導致說今年的大阪世界博覽會的相關宣傳活動必須全面停止文化幣跟黃牛房市的費用也要停擺就連推廣閱讀搶救舒適的這種相關宣傳活動同樣也要止步甚至說連民間團體藝文工作者的思想"},{"start":199.674,"end":225.243,"text":"和我們的政治參與自由國民黨都可以透過這樣的砍山預算來威脅所以我實在是不理解國民黨到底跟我們台灣文化有多大的深仇大恨好 那今天的業務報告當中文化部也有提到說今年的預算被煽動的幅度相當的大對文化部的工作業務推動造成相當大的衝擊所以我想藉這個機會請部長說明一下"},{"start":227.705,"end":233.942,"text":"說我們今年的預算動砍您最痛心之處在哪裡那未來你要怎麼樣因應部長"},{"start":236.3,"end":257.459,"text":"我最痛心之處非常多剛剛您講到那個媒體宣傳費刪掉5943萬其實刪到最後還付100萬要我們從別的地方再拿100萬來就是說我難過的不是說我錢變少因為錢變少我只要少做一點就可以我難過的是他們在刪的時候"},{"start":258.28,"end":274.837,"text":"他完全沒有道理的刪一些我完全不懂為什麼要刪這些刪這些只有針對我們公務機關的公務員的工作造成困擾比如國內外旅費水電委辦特別費造成我們很大的困擾"},{"start":276.765,"end":303.871,"text":"譬如說我舉個例子我們去年跟人家簽約的一些我們團體要出國了那個旅費不夠你知道我們怎麼辦嗎我們找企業家贊助我們最近要跟京都辦一個漫畫館只有五萬塊錢的預算只剩下五萬塊錢的交通費他們來找我說部長怎麼辦我說我也沒辦法難道最後是要自己掏腰包嗎最後找企業一個國家一個文化部要做到這個程度"},{"start":304.631,"end":330.852,"text":"要去跟企業贊助所以我有時候實在講不清楚我那個難過就是你一直說我有三百億我沒有啊我們的文化預算一直是很少的占全部的總預算不到一長年以來台灣的文化從以前到現在它就是一個蠻弱勢的那在這個情況下你不但不能傷我的你還得給我多一點你要知道預算的編列不是你想像中要編多少就編多少"},{"start":331.732,"end":359.58,"text":"當初我們在編預算的時候就算是跟行政院主計數跟行政院長都是一點一點要來的多要一點多要一點他絕對不是一個說看你高興編一點一點要來然後在文化委員會我想主席你也在現場文化委員會本來要砍多少錢我們站起來一直辯論一直理性的辯論爭取到每一毛錢都不要刪掉最後我們算多少呢算兩千萬"},{"start":361.506,"end":384.723,"text":"兩千萬是經過多長時間討論的結果這兩千萬不抵他們的一算一算就要八十億八十億後來我們去求他要求他說我們一定要這個錢你不能不給我們最後變成最後答案是三十一億動三十四億三十一億跟動三十四億跟前面的兩千萬差多少"},{"start":385.383,"end":400.299,"text":"這就是我難過的地方因為他最後傷到的是還是文化人的錢你少給我兩千萬我就少一團的錢你少給我兩千萬我就少四十團出國去就這麼簡單"},{"start":402.361,"end":421.556,"text":"你替納稅人看緊荷包你沒有看到任何荷包你只有讓大家更慘我們整個文化界充滿了焦慮本來有一些補助該過年前就拿到第一筆了過年前拿到第一筆發薪水要過一個新年的結果不但拿不到"},{"start":422.416,"end":443.132,"text":"過完年還拿不到我當然是非常焦慮囉我非常焦慮因為最後大家就會怪到我們說你為什麼不爭取預算呢就是說我蠻無奈的我在這邊藉這個機會要講就是說今天不是講我還有26億我多26億都不是要講這個其實我終究有很長一段時間不想講預算要講的實在是"},{"start":444.073,"end":448.895,"text":"我不是來辯論預算的我是來工作的我希望趕快給我錢我們可以把這個錢用在福祉產業我們每個地方都缺錢嘛每一個行業都缺錢嘛那這個錢又不是要到我們每一個公務員的口袋都不是啊所以你刪的錢是刪到全人民的錢你並沒有幫人民看管這個荷包你是把大家該得的"},{"start":470.765,"end":487.916,"text":"很那個一點點卑微的那個文化的補助刪掉文化人90%都靠自己來生活啊我在文化界工作了50年欸我沒拿過政府補助我靠自己活下來同樣的許多年輕人活在這個時代他比我們過去更慘"},{"start":488.956,"end":515.078,"text":"因為文化的狀況比過去更差他們必須靠自己去打工賺錢當家教 當無本我講過了他們很少能拿到公共電視的錢他們很少能拿到文化部的錢文化部是一種獎勵它不是補助來四十團只能給三團 五團剩下都拿不到這是我很感謝你給我機會講這個大家有時候講來講去會把事情模糊掉這麼簡單的道理"},{"start":517.46,"end":533.31,"text":"這就是我心頭的地方啊好 部長辛苦我想剛剛葛昭偉他也搞不好清楚一直說緊門解凍案要趕快送進來其實送進來還要從院會去院會還要交付程序委員會程序委員會"},{"start":534.29,"end":556.089,"text":"在透過這個報告事項在交付教育委員會那個還要走那個程序喔不是好像說直接送到所謂的教育委員會我們就可以馬上來排審所以我想這個也要藉著機會跟大家報告好 那我想再來借一點後面的時間來跟部長討論熱身的問題喔你也知道說我長期關心熱身那我很感謝就是說"},{"start":557.87,"end":575.581,"text":"我們部長有拿出願意面對熱身的誠意明天下午一點就要由陳紀民局長來主持熱身療養院文化資產協商會議要討論一些包括登陸世界遺產恢復熱身人口的景觀一些等等相關的計畫"},{"start":577.082,"end":604.816,"text":"明天會議要開始之前我想我在這裡還是要做一些要求就是說期待說我們在明天的開會中我們應該要做的啦我想部長對這樣的誠意我是非常清楚可是我們應該要做的比過往部長至少像榮應台當初還有親自到過熱身過就是說我們對這個世界遺產潛力點要更有正面價值的處置而不是說讓熱身療養院這個問題"},{"start":607.737,"end":610.638,"text":"這件事情我想委員一直很關心我想請局長報告一下因為我們馬上就要開會好 局長"},{"start":629.444,"end":651.389,"text":"那我想大家比較關切的就是世界遺產這個議題世界遺產現在目前是我們18處世界遺產潛力點之一那我們現在部裡面也成立了第6屆的世界遺產推動會也都持續在開會那在相關的議題當中未來我們會跟我們的這有關的衛福部啦還有新北市政府因為我們這次的主管計劃是他相關的議題裡面都會適時的邀請他們來共同參與"},{"start":654.369,"end":679.868,"text":"好 OK那我想最後再花一點點時間就是我要跟部長討論那個華氏民股買回的相關問題我想部長你有表示就是說華氏定位的問題那解決民股買回你覺得說如果所謂的他們願意賣那當然你也就法規容許那我們也願意買所以目前到底民股買回有什麼樣的進度嗎"},{"start":681.549,"end":707.736,"text":"如果說公管集團沒有辦法百分之百持股的話那我們怎麼談華氏的活化的問題我想這個是不是再簡單回答一下好 目前華氏的民股占百分之十六點七六可是裡面有四家是比較大的台塑 中興 森保跟富地他們占百分之十他們曾經來公文他們願意賣而且賣的價錢就可以在我們十九年前我們開那個價格"},{"start":709.196,"end":724.083,"text":"但是剩下的那個零零星星個人股大概還有百分之六點七大概有九十九位股東那最近我跟胡董也坐下來聊了他認為說大概還剩兩三個就可以找到全部了"},{"start":724.623,"end":752.262,"text":"如果是這樣的話我想他是一個要很慎重考慮的我們政府決定要撥多少錢可以接受把民股買回來那這個民股買回來的目的是成為一個資產這個資產就歸公管集團然後我們要怎麼運用它值不值得買回來買回來之後它會不會更好這個我想不是一個好像我隨口講說買回來之後我們就把它怎麼樣怎麼樣因為買回來之後我們要繼續怎麼做"},{"start":754.663,"end":782.746,"text":"然後他會繼續虧因為他現在已經跟銀行借了43億了嘛43億是一個不能再借錢的那個意思喔那剛剛不是講到說怎麼空間不夠他就是沒有錢賺所以他會把空間盡量租出去嘛那我也很同情他因為他一直虧嘛所以這個問題謝謝委員會問這個問題我很希望在有可能的至少在我任內喔往前踏一步好期待 OK 謝謝部長"},{"start":785.172,"end":787.198,"text":"林怡君召委咨询 部长请回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請李部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["李部長遠：林委員，你好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。剛剛葛如鈞召委指責您拿碗公，其實我還滿替您抱屈的，因為您是在替藝文工作者、所有的影視工作者抱不平，是因為當初陳玉珍委員說，請他們丟掉那只要飯的碗。國民黨的這些委員們如果認為陳玉珍這句話是失言，他們那個時候為什麼沒有出來譴責？","另外，我覺得剛剛也一直在提，為什麼你們解凍的書面報告還不趕快送進來？殊不知國民黨韓國瑜主政的立法院2月19號才送出國家總預算，被他們亂刪、亂凍的國家總預算2月19號才送出來，難道就要你們馬上寫出完整的報告？難道要像國民黨一樣，把這種預算提案都亂寫一通嗎？所以我要藉這個機會做一些說明。","今天我們提到所謂的文化建設，其實文化建設大不易、篳路藍縷，從1920年代臺灣第一批接受現代化教育的知識分子就開始活躍了起來，所以臺灣人的意識也在那個時候開始萌芽。當時的行動者發現文化實際上是一個抵抗殖民政策的戰場，所以才必須建設臺灣的文化，而不是純粹地模仿中國，也惟有這樣，我們才能真正地獨當一面，促進社會的進步。這種在文化工作上的努力，其實我們至今也沒有停止過，臺灣人的努力也常常成為政治打壓的目標。就如同日本殖民者，透過皇民化的運動，試圖改造臺灣人對文化的認同。","持續殖民地體制的中國國民黨就長期利用黨國的教育來貶低臺灣的文化，到了2025年的今天，同樣又是中國國民黨利用思想的審查，甚至是以懲戒的方式來大刪大凍臺灣珍貴的文化資產。這次文化部預算總共被刪除11億，凍結了34億，其中的媒體宣傳費更是全部被刪除，所以不只導致今年大阪世界博覽會的相關宣傳活動必須全面停止，文化幣跟黃牛防制的費用也要停擺，就連推廣閱讀、搶救書市的相關宣傳活動同樣也要止步，甚至連民間團體、藝文工作者的思想和政治參與自由，國民黨都可以透過這樣的砍刪預算來威脅，所以我實在是不理解，國民黨到底跟臺灣文化有多大的深仇大恨？","在今天的業務報告當中，文化部也有提到今年的預算被刪、凍的幅度相當地大，對文化部的工作業務推動造成相當大的衝擊，所以我想藉著這個機會請部長說明一下，對於我們今年預算的凍砍，您最痛心之處在哪裡？未來你要怎麼樣因應？部長。"],["李部長遠：我最痛心之處非常多，剛才您講到媒體宣傳費被刪掉5,943萬，其實刪到最後還負100萬，要我們從別的地方再拿100萬來。我難過的不是錢變少，因為錢變少，我只要少做一點就可以。我難過的是他們在刪的時候完全沒有道理的刪，我完全不懂為什麼要刪這些，因為刪這些只有對公務機關公務員的工作造成困擾，譬如國內外旅費、水電、委辦、特別費，這樣造成我們很大的困擾。","我舉個例子，譬如我們去年跟人家簽的一些約，我們團體要出國了，旅費不夠，你知道我們怎麼辦嗎？我們找企業家贊助，我們最近要和京都辦一個漫畫館，預算只剩下5萬塊錢的交通費，他們來找我，說部長怎麼辦？我說我也沒辦法，難道最後要自己掏腰包嗎？最後找企業贊助，一個國家、一個文化部要做到這個程度，要去找企業贊助！","我有時候實在講不清楚我那個難過，就是你一直說我有300億，我沒有啊！文化預算一直是很少的，占全部總預算的不到1%，長年以來、從以前到現在，臺灣的文化就是滿弱勢的。在這個情況下，你不但不能刪我的，你還得給我多一點。你要知道，預算的編列不是你想像中要編多少就編多少，當初我們在編預算的時候，算是跟行政院、主計總處、行政院長一點一點要來的，多要一點，多要一點，絕對不是看你高興編多少就編多少，是一點一點要來的。","當初在文化委員會，主席也在現場，文化委員會本來要砍多少錢，我們站起來一直辯論、一直理性的辯論，爭取到每一毛錢都不要刪掉，最後刪多少？刪2,000萬，2,000萬是經過多長時間的討論，結果這2,000萬不敵他們，一刪就要80億，後來我們去求，說我們一定要這個錢，不能不給我們。最後變成刪11億、凍34億，刪11億、凍34億跟前面的2,000萬差多少？這就是我難過的地方，因為最後刪到的還是文化人的錢……"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["李部長遠：你少給我2,000萬，我就少40團的錢，你少給我2,000萬，我就少40團出國去！就這麼簡單！你替納稅人看緊荷包，你沒有看緊任何荷包，你只有讓大家更慘，整個文化界充滿了焦慮！本來有一些補助過年前就該拿到第一筆了，過年前拿到第一筆發薪水要過新年的，結果不但拿不到，過完年還拿不到！我當然是非常焦慮，我非常焦慮！因為最後他就怪到我們，說我們為什麼不爭取預算呢？我滿無奈的，我在這邊藉這個機會要講，今天不是講我還有26億，我多26億，都不是要講這個，其實我中間有很長一段時間不想講預算。因為我不是來辯論預算的，我是來工作的，我希望趕快給我錢，可以把這個錢用在扶植產業。","我們每個地方都缺錢，每一個行業都缺錢，這個錢又不是要到我們公務員的口袋，都不是！你刪的錢是刪到全人民的錢，你並沒有幫人民看管荷包，而是把大家該得的、很卑微的、一點點的文化補助刪掉，文化人90%都靠自己在生活。我在文化界工作了50年，我沒拿過政府補助，我靠自己活下來。同樣的，許多年輕人活在這個時代，比我們過去更慘，因為文化的狀況比過去更慘，他們必須靠自己去打工賺錢，當家教、當Uber。我講過了，他們很少人拿到公共電視的錢，他們很少人拿到文化部的錢，文化部給的是一種獎勵，不是補助，來40團，只能給3團、5團，剩下的都拿不到。","我很感謝你給我機會講這個，大家有時候講來講去會把事情模糊掉，這麼簡單的道理，這就是我心痛的地方！"],["林委員宜瑾：好，部長，辛苦！我想剛剛葛召委也搞不太清楚，一直說請你們解凍案要趕快送進來，其實送進來還要從院會，院會還要先經過程序委員會，再透過報告事項交付教育委員會，還要走那個程序，不是直接送到所謂的教育委員會，我們就可以馬上來排審，所以我想這個也要藉這個機會跟大家報告。","再來，後面的時間來跟部長討論樂生的問題。你也知道我長期關心樂生，我很感謝，部長有拿出願意面對樂生的誠意，明天下午1點，就要由陳濟民局長來主持樂生療養院文化資產研商會議，要討論一些包括登錄世界遺產、恢復樂生人口景觀等等的相關計畫，在明天會議開始之前，我想我在這裡還是要做一些要求，期待我們在明天的開會中應該要做的。部長對這個的誠意，我是非常清楚，可是我們應該要比過往部長還更有正面價值的處置，至少像龍應台當初還有親自到過樂生，就是我們對世界遺產潛力點要更有正面價值的處置，而不是對樂生療養院這個問題，就說一句，主管單位是衛福部，然後就完全被卡住了，所以請部長說明或局長說明，文化部能不能做到這樣的要求？就是這個事情是不是要努力的捍衛？"],["李部長遠：這件事情委員一直很關心，我想請局長報告一下，因為我們馬上就要開會。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，局長。"],["陳局長濟民：我想大家比較關切的就是世界遺產這個議題，目前樂生是我們十八處世界遺產潛力點之一，現在部裡也成立了第六屆的世界遺產推動會，也都持續在開會，在相關的議題當中，未來我們會適時邀請有關的衛福部，還有文資主管機關新北市政府來共同參與。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。最後再花一點點時間，我要跟部長討論華視民股買回的相關問題。部長，你有表示，解決華視定位的問題是民股買回，你覺得如果他們願意賣，法規容許，當然我們也願意買，目前民股買回有什麼樣的進度嗎？如果公廣集團沒有辦法百分之百持股的話，我們怎麼談華視活化的問題？這個是不是再簡單回答一下？"],["李部長遠：目前華視的民股占16.76%，裡面有四家是比較大的，台塑、中興、聲寶和富帝占10%，他們曾經來公文說他們願意賣，而且賣的價錢可以是19年前我們開的那個價格，但是剩下的零零星星個人股大概還有6.7%，大概有99位股東。最近我跟胡董也坐下來聊了，他認為大概還剩2、3個就可以找到全部了，如果是這樣的話，我想這是一個要很慎重考慮的。把民股買回來，我們政府決定可以接受撥多少錢，這個民股買回來的目的是成為一個資產，這個資產就歸公廣集團，然後我們要怎麼運用它，值不值得買回來？買回來之後，它會不會更好？我想這個不是我隨口講買回來之後就把它怎麼樣，它買回來之後，我們要繼續要怎麼做？然後它會不會繼續虧？因為它現在已經跟銀行借了43億了，借43億是不能再借錢的意思。剛才不是講到空間不夠，它就是沒有賺錢，所以會把空間儘量租出去……"],["林委員宜瑾：當然、當然，那是黃金地段。"],["李部長遠：我也很同情它，因為它一直虧，所以謝謝委員問這個問題，我很希望有可能在我任內往前踏一步解決這個問題。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，期待，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委質詢。部長請回座。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：接下來就請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},{"id":"159680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db900e5643f3492fd74dc7648dfe0a0275fc51f25d2de176b75bc1c587096f49c00dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:26:10 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我們全國大概有30個原鄉如果每一個鄉有這樣的一個服務的話當然那些媽媽會安心的住在我們的原鄉部落可是常常遇到是沒有沒有這方面的一個所謂的慈善單位那我們國家已經"},{"start":113.553,"end":138.552,"text":"可憐到說需要到慈善單位來幫忙做這樣的事情也就是說我們衛福部還是沒有努力在來解決這個問題那叫不到計程車也就算了如果要出去的話可能就是如果沒有這些基金會的話要自己想辦法下山那像我昨天去復興區那最遠的地方到大溪大概也要一兩個小時的時間那更何況是有一些部落的環境還是不是很好所以"},{"start":139.472,"end":158.307,"text":"幾乎我在部落裡面幾乎沒有看到這些所謂的產戶或者是說即將生產的人所以基本上我在想他們應該都是住在都會區然後我們看下一個我們看平均移民的部分就是小朋友的出生率我大概考你一下目前全世界最低的所謂的新生兒的死亡率是在哪裡"},{"start":159.352,"end":183.302,"text":"新生兒死亡率最低目前如果沒有記錯 是不是丹麥對 日本 是日本就芬蘭 日本 盧森堡這些我們大概都在二左右那我們現在台灣是三左右可是我們曾經是世界上最好的可是我們現在竟然是推不到現在這樣子而且我們原住民還是在六左右我們再看一下"},{"start":185.43,"end":205.178,"text":"不僅是這樣 因為我們平均明明是小大概六七歲左右所以我們可以看所有的一些發生率我們的死亡的時間大概都在你們的歲數的大概六七歲的差距那我為什麼要凸顯這一張其實就像剛才王一鳴委員講的現在少子化沒有專責單位我們原住民也沒有專責單位"},{"start":206.238,"end":234.201,"text":"其實在我們在立法的部分在112年的6月21號就已經通過原住民主健康法在第二條第二項裡面他必須要有專責單位可是已經快要兩年了我們還沒有看到這個單位的出行那我們是希望說他能夠在10級以上不然現在上帝李老的那個科號還是這個科的層級裡面所以你要怎麼來解決所有原住民的這些健康的議題所以就剛剛王委員講的你都沒有準備好你要解決這麼多繁雜"},{"start":235.862,"end":254.891,"text":"很困難的事情你要去找誰來解決是是這個部分我可以聽到一點點的聲音嗎有沒有規劃好非常感謝委員那個長期以來對於我們原鄉原住民的一個關心特別是我想我知道那個土耳其人自己也是醫生所以對於這個部分我想那個見解特別特別特別深刻那我們現在是不是先請那個對來請"},{"start":260.333,"end":281.57,"text":"謝謝委員有關於專責單位在研究法裡面他希望指定一個專責單位目前我們就是努力朝另外新增一個科的方式在處理我們在爭取人種的部分給我們這樣的一個資源也爭取了一年多所以還在持續努力中"},{"start":282.23,"end":309.616,"text":"好 那至少先看到初型讓他們至少一個盼望那麼再看一下目前在推動的這些所謂要提升我們產婦 嬰兒健康措施陸陸續續都有些計畫然後我看一下IDS 育兒專責意識制度還有周產期高風險期我們的產婦的追蹤關懷計畫上面都寫得很好可是我在想第一個IDS即使它就沒有強制規定說我這個一定要小兒科或者是婦產"},{"start":311.096,"end":323.593,"text":"副廠科的一個科別所以基本上來值班的都是原來的在那邊服務的醫師大部分都是內科或者是加一科的醫師所以這個部分其實沒有辦法真正幫忙到所謂以後要解決兒科的問題那幼兒專制的醫師制度"},{"start":326.557,"end":344.29,"text":"我相信啦在所謂的比如說屏東縣好了把小兒科的醫師全部拉進去然後大家來分所謂的照顧比然後可是其實到最後還是落在衛生所的醫生上面所以其實這個幼兒專責醫師制度真的可以解決我們現在的問題嗎OK好來來來我們請那個郁金副市長來講"},{"start":351.061,"end":374.866,"text":"是謝謝委員的詢問委員剛剛所提到的確實也是我們在推動幼兒專責醫師制度計畫的時候非常重要的考量也就是服務人力的充足了所以我們也知道偏鄉的地區很多時候是仰賴衛生所那也不一定都有兒科醫師在那邊所以我們在幼兒專責醫師制度計畫裡面也納入了家庭醫學科的醫師經過一個適當的訓練也可以來協助推動這個計畫"},{"start":378.668,"end":383.104,"text":"對啦我的意思就是說就是還是原來這些人在承接loading嘛因為很多事情都是"},{"start":383.922,"end":409.929,"text":"反覆的在發生 然後這件事情又是新的所以我覺得這件事情是不是應該要長遠的計畫以後你再招收公費生的時候 應該是把兒科的比例用高一點這樣會以後再找人 不會說都找不到人第二個就是我看到你們的所謂的涵蓋率已經到47.9%這個幼兒中可是我想知道說原住民的比例是多少真正照顧到原住民的比例 你大概知道嗎"},{"start":413.273,"end":440.325,"text":"這個資料我們會會後再去做一下確認我們再看那個周產婦高風險產婦這個桌中關懷計畫我看到一二年應該是說他服務了八千九百七十七人可是呢我看到真正服務員罪名三地員罪名是九百零九也就是說只有十分之一然後看了那個經費是四千五百萬這樣平均看來一個產婦的那個所收的補助大概是五千塊你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎"},{"start":441.545,"end":459.558,"text":"還是要再更多報告委員這個部分的話我們會依據就是實際上在收案管理的時候這個產婦的實際的狀況但這個計畫主要是透過協助這個產婦定期來接受產檢然後以及提升健康適能來增加他在孕產期的整個的健康"},{"start":459.978,"end":484.537,"text":"對啦我知道 可是現在上面寫說收案率打129%可是我就看了這個裡面我們的原住民人數只有909所以我希望是不是因為他比較偏遠所以他可能沒有受到應該有的照顧而是比較偏重於在杜惠區因為這邊是8977那實際原住民是只有909是不是這個部分可以再加強雖然說你們已經說收案率已經達到129%"},{"start":488.606,"end":513.064,"text":"這個收案率是相較於就是說地方政府共同訂定的目標值那這個部分我們會再來留意在比例上面我希望原住民可以多一點可以嗎我們再來留意因為時間的關係我就講到一個就是我上個禮拜接觸的一個問題就是罕見疾病的問題因為一個小朋友他大概國小五年級就因為臉皮血送到醫院結果後來我們再問的時候他就說他不屬於罕見疾病"},{"start":513.664,"end":527.476,"text":"那可是ITP所謂的ITP就是我們知道的免疫性就是血小板引起的止斑不過它的一個特效藥其實就是造成他們生活的困境因為一個月的藥費大概是3萬多塊接近4萬塊不過這個家庭剛好"},{"start":529.778,"end":545.314,"text":"比較可憐的是他們剛好是原住民又剛好是六個兄弟姊妹要養就是造成父母親非常大的壓力可是他們要申請罕見是不符合資格申請重道三病也沒有那個條件所以到底要怎麼來解決他們的困境呢"},{"start":546.155,"end":568.673,"text":"所以那我有問當下的那個我們來辦公室討論的時候他說ITP不算罕見可是我看到罕見的罕見疾病的一個所謂的定義歐盟是百萬分之27到36可是這個ITP的發生率是百萬分之50到100也就是說其實它跟罕見疾病的定義其實沒有差很遠所以是不是應該要把它列入考量"},{"start":570.625,"end":591.205,"text":"非常感謝委員跟委員報告因為他現在目前所罹患這個並不是我們公告的罹病事實上是後天免疫性的疾病其實我後來再去看一下所謂的後天其實它是IdiopathicIdiopathic它的兩個意義就是Spontaneous它是自然發生的第二個就是所謂的我看一下"},{"start":592.563,"end":617.002,"text":"所謂的 peculiar to the individual也就是說它是特定對這個病人的所以它並不是所謂的後天它就是spontaneous它怎麼可能是後天所以我就說其實不要說把它變成是所謂的一出生下來就有它本來就是因為它的基因的問題在那個時間區它就發生了嘛所以這個所謂罕見疾病應該是要把它考慮進去因為它的比例上的問題是不是可以從這邊來認定這樣"},{"start":618.883,"end":627.236,"text":"好不好如果以後如果ITP的小朋友的話在照顧他們會造成就不會造成家長很大的負擔謝謝OK感謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時26分）有請衛福部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["盧委員縣一：次長，我們算第一次見面嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不是。報告委員，之前我們一起到原民的區域，都非常感佩委員對於原民相關福利的關心，之前委員也有指示，就是在原鄉地區醫療的強化，非常感謝委員。"],["盧委員縣一：針對原鄉的少子化我們來做一些溝通。現在我們小朋友的死亡率還是全國的兩倍，我們目前看到的困境就是衛生所的編制其實很少可以特定要求是小兒科或者是婦產科，當然也有一些所謂IDS的合作，不過還是沒有辦法解決這個問題。我們來看一下目前的產檢次數，有的人可能在生產前只有產檢5次，所以造成我們的嬰兒死亡率達到9.5，平地鄉是10.3，跟都會區的5.8還是有差距。也就是說，目前全國大概是4左右，但原住民還在9.5，大概是一倍的量。","第二個，針對產檢的部分，現在努力的是新竹的一個基金會叫至善基金會，它有提供安心媽媽專車，全國大概有30個原鄉，如果每一個鄉都有這樣的服務的話，當然那些媽媽會安心地住在原鄉部落，可是常常遇到的是沒有這方面的慈善單位。我們國家已經可憐到需要慈善單位來幫忙做這樣的事情，可見衛福部還是沒有努力在解決這個問題。叫不到計程車也就算了，如果沒有這些基金會的話，就要自己想辦法下山。像我昨天去復興區，最遠的地方到大溪大概也要一、兩個小時的時間，更何況有些部落的環境還不是很好，所以我在部落裡面幾乎沒有看到產婦或者是即將生產的人，我在想基本上他們應該都是住在都會區。","接著我們來看平均餘命的部分，關於小朋友的出生率，我大概考你一下，目前全世界最低的新生兒死亡率是在哪裡？"],["呂次長建德：如果我沒記錯，新生兒死亡率最低的是不是丹麥？對不起，應該是日本。"],["盧委員縣一：就是芬蘭、日本、盧森堡這些國家，大概都在2左右，現在臺灣是3左右，我們曾經是世界上最好的，可是我們現在竟然退步到這樣子，而且我們原住民還是在6左右。不僅是這樣，因為我們的平均餘命大概少6、7歲左右，所以我們可以看到我們死亡的時間與你們的歲數大概都有6、7歲的差距。","我為什麼要凸顯這一張？就像剛才王育敏委員講的，現在針對少子化沒有專責單位，針對原住民也沒有專責單位，其實在立法的部分，112年6月21號就已經通過原住民族健康法，其中第二條第二項規定必須要有專責單位。可是已經快要兩年了，我們還沒有看到這個單位的雛形，我們希望它能夠在司級以上，不然現在還是屬於山地離島科，還是在一個科的層級裡面，所以你要怎麼來解決我們所有原住民健康的議題？就像剛剛王委員講的，你都沒有準備好，這麼多繁雜、困難的事情，你要去找誰來解決？這個部分我可以聽到一點點的聲音嗎？有沒有規劃呢？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員長期以來對於我們原鄉原住民的關心，特別是我知道盧委員自己也是醫生，所以對這個部分的見解特別深刻，本人先請陳代理副司長來說明一下。"],["陳代理副司長青梅：謝謝委員，有關於專責單位，原健法裡面是希望能夠指定一個專責單位，目前我們就是努力朝另外再新增一個科的方式在處理……"],["盧委員縣一：還是一個「科」？"],["陳代理副司長青梅：對，我們向人總爭取能給我們這樣的資源，也爭取了一年多了，現在還在持續努力中。"],["盧委員縣一：好，至少先看到雛形，讓我們至少有一個盼望。","再來，目前在推動所謂提升我們產婦、嬰兒等等的健康措施，陸陸續續都有提出一些計畫，包括IDS、幼兒專責醫師制度、周產期高風險孕產婦(兒)追蹤關懷計畫等等，上面都寫得很好，可是第一個，IDS就沒有強制規定一定要有小兒科或者是婦產科的科別，所以基本上來值班的都是原來在那邊服務的醫師，大部分都是內科或者是家醫科的醫師，所以這個部分其實沒有辦法真正幫忙到所謂要解決兒科的問題。至於幼兒專責醫師制度，以屏東縣為例好了，把小兒科的醫師全部納進去，然後大家再來分配所謂的照顧比，可是到最後還是落在衛生所的醫生上面，所以這個幼兒專責醫師制度，真的可以解決我們現在的問題嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們請玉菁副司長來說明。"],["劉副司長玉菁：謝謝委員的詢問，委員剛剛所提到的，確實也是我們在推動幼兒專責醫師制度計畫時非常重要的考量，也就是服務人力的充足。我們也知道偏鄉地區很多時候是仰賴衛生所，也不一定都有兒科醫師在那邊，所以我們在幼兒專責醫師制度計畫裡面，也納入了家庭醫學科的醫師，經過一個適當的訓練，也可以來協助推動這個計畫。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我的意思是，就還是原來這些人在承接loading，因為很多事情都是反覆再發生，然後這件事情又是新的，所以我覺得這件事情是不是應該要有長遠的計畫，像以後在招收公費生的時候，應該要把兒科的比例提高一點，以後在找人時也比較不會找不到人。","第二個，我看到你們所謂幼兒專科醫師制度的涵蓋率已經到47.9%，但我想知道原住民這部分的比例是多少？真正照顧到原住民的比例大概是多少，知道嗎？"],["劉副司長玉菁：這個資料我們會後再去做一下確認。"],["盧委員縣一：請再提供給我。","再看周產期高風險孕產婦（兒）追蹤關懷計畫，112年共服務了8,977人，可是真正被服務到的山地原住民是909人，也就是只了占十分之一；再來，那個經費是4,500萬，這樣平均下來，一個產婦所受到的補助大概是5,000塊，你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎？還是要再更多？"],["林組長宇旋：報告委員，這個部分我們會依據實際上在收案管理時這個產婦的實際狀況，這個計畫主要是透過協助產婦定期來接受產檢，以及提升健康適能來增加他在孕產期的整個健康。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我知道，現在上面寫到收案率達129%，可是裡面我們的原住民人數只有909人，是不是因為他的位置比較偏遠，所以可能沒有受到應該有的照顧，而且是比較偏重在都會區？即受到服務的有8,977人，但實際上原住民的人數只有909人，是不是這個部分可以再加強？雖然你們說收案率已經達到129%。"],["林組長宇旋：是，這個收案率是相較於地方政府共同訂定的目標值，這個部分我們會再來留意。"],["盧委員縣一：在比例上面，我希望原住民人數可以再多一點，可以嗎？"],["林組長宇旋：我們再來留意。"],["盧委員縣一：因為時間的關係，我就來談上個禮拜所接觸到的一個問題，就是罕見疾病的問題。有一個大概是國小五年級的小朋友，因為流鼻血被送到醫院，後來我們再詢問的時候卻聽到，他不屬於罕見疾病而是ITP，所謂的ITP就是免疫性血小板低下引起的紫斑症，但他的特效藥費用卻造成他們生活的困境，因為一個月的藥費大概是三萬多塊、接近四萬塊，這個家庭比較可憐，剛好是原住民，又剛好有6個兄弟姐妹要養，所以造成父母親非常大的壓力，可是他們要申請罕見疾病補助是不符合資格的；申請重大傷病補助，也沒有那個條件，所以到底要怎麼解決他們的困境呢？當時官員到我們辦公室來討論的時候，他說ITP不算罕見疾病，可是我看了罕見疾病所謂的定義，歐盟是百萬分之二十七到三十六，而ITP的發生率是百萬分之五十到一百，也就是說，它跟罕見疾病的定義其實沒有差很遠，所以是不是應該要把它列入考量？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員，跟委員報告，因為他目前所罹患的疾病並不是我們所公告的罕病，事實上是後天免疫性的疾病，是不符合罕病的……"],["盧委員縣一：沒有，我後來有再去看一下所謂的「後天」，其實就是idiopathic，它有兩個意義，第一個就是spontaneous、是自然發生的；第二個，所謂的peculiar to the individual，也就是說，它是特定對這個病人的，所以並不是所謂的後天，就是spontaneous的，怎麼可能是「後天」呢？所以我才說，不要把它變成是所謂一出生下來就有，他本來就是因為基因的問題，在那個時間序就發生了，所以所謂的罕見疾病應該要把它考慮進去，因為它比例上的問題，所以是不是可以從這邊來認定？如果可以的話，以後若是ITP的小朋友，在照顧上就不會造成家長很大的負擔，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：OK，感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝次長，謝謝盧委員。","接續我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}