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謝謝各位委員我們目前已處法定人數那我們現在就開始開會那請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會第三次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年1月8日星期三下午20時41分至46分地點群仙樓802會議室出席委員尤浩等13人"},{"start":2164.72,"end":2189.773,"text":"請教委員一人 主席黃昭基委員國昌報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項 討論本會調閱文件與資料保管及查閱注意事項與其他相關事宜決議 以調查文件與資料第一點至第四點 均照委員林思明等七人提案通過發函請國家發展委員會及行政院國家發展基金管理會於一個月內提供本會所列之相關調閱文件與資料"},{"start":2192.102,"end":2219.337,"text":"查閱注意事項考量本會工作人員之人力配置相關文件與資料於調查期間每週一至即週四上午九十至下午五十陳列於本院群憲樓502會議室供本院委員親自查閱令每週二週三及週五則請本會委員於一天前進行預約一月時段將相關文件與資料陳列於502會議室並供本會委員親自查閱 散會宣傳"},{"start":2222.633,"end":2244.762,"text":"請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處主席來請那個中委員嘉賓會議詢問今天這個我們的這個附件是什麼這個附件的內容那麼請會務人員說明一下這個附件是指什麼的附件我們"},{"start":2259.896,"end":2285.031,"text":"最後是依照我們上一次調閱的範圍然後請他們提供的會議資料的內容不好意思我先跟在場委員說明一下就是按照我們的調閱辦法跟調閱文件的內容因為過去的這段時間當中我們已經請"},{"start":2288.958,"end":2305.203,"text":"國發基金的同仁非常辛苦把一些資料都放在我們502的會議室當中了那各位委員如果有花一點時間去看調閱的內容就會知道裡面所有的文件都是在我們調閱的範圍之內"},{"start":2307.503,"end":2322.209,"text":"那只不過說其他委員的情況我不是那麼的清楚那但過去這段時間當中我大概是就依照我們這個調閱辦法的規定所有的文件至於502那我都有去看"},{"start":2323.149,"end":2352.128,"text":"那其他委員是不是有花時間去看這件事情我就不是這麼清楚但我可以跟各位委員報告現在下面在502的文件分成兩類一個密件的部分全部我們國發基金的統人就密件的部分有用牛皮紙袋把它密封起來上面標示是密件其他不是密件的部分也都在502的會議室裡面然後有全部"},{"start":2353.149,"end":2375.69,"text":"公開就是讓我們這個調查委員會的委員可以去閱來那上面的內容就關乎我們在調閱範圍之內相關公司他們的會議紀錄那以及國發基金跟他們彼此之間在國發基金相關的委員會當中所做的會議的決議在會議的時候他們所負的"},{"start":2378.453,"end":2407.749,"text":"一些評估的文件的附件那全部都在目前全部都在502的會議室請問各位還有沒有其他的推薦主席你說了半天你的意思就是說這是我們上次會議議事錄裡面決議第二點這裡面我們這裡面第二點的調閱注意事項那個說明說502的會議室放了這四項資料的意思就對了"},{"start":2408.903,"end":2423.076,"text":"是好請問委員對上次的會議議事錄有無遺漏沒有可以確認嗎好好謝謝好那請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":2425.97,"end":2442.249,"text":"報告事項 邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉靜清率所屬單位就國家發展基金投資如新股份有限公司及聯合再生股有限公司之決策及監督管理作為提出報告 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2445.046,"end":2471.36,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在先介紹在場的委員我們現在到場的有我從我左手邊開始一一介紹有鍾嘉斌委員陳超明委員蔡奕宇委員王逸川委員吳思堯委員那在我右手邊的有楊瓊英委員吳宗憲委員徐欣穎委員"},{"start":2472.461,"end":2494.89,"text":"那今天也感謝我們國發會的主委 劉主任委員 劉靜欣主委那還有國發基金管理會有汪執行秘書廷安有葉副執行秘書淑芳有施副執行秘書明山那還有張子余組長 林怡暉組長"},{"start":2500.009,"end":2526.368,"text":"好 那我們現在因為來請中委員嘉賓那還是因為上次的會議是1月8號嘛1月8號到現在有一段時間了那想要請會務人員說明一下這四項的調閱文件的內容是上次 依上次的第一項的內容的程序通過的是不是"},{"start":2527.518,"end":2538.386,"text":"是沒有錯我要確認一下嘛就是我們所謂的決議上次易思路記錄決議一就是透過表決之後通過的這四項內容是"},{"start":2540.595,"end":2561.901,"text":"那個我再強調一次就是因為我們現在也要體恤我們恢復同仁的辛勞所以只有禮拜一跟禮拜四提供調閱那但是也有通知大家說禮拜二禮拜三禮拜五如果真的要去看的話就事前跟他們預約那他們會去開門讓大家進去看"},{"start":2563.962,"end":2584.069,"text":"那現在所有的資料今天是禮拜一其實在502的會議室上面裡面通通都有那裡面的資料都可以讓各位委員來去越南好那我們現在是不是先請劉主任委員上台報告"},{"start":2585.748,"end":2594.974,"text":"徵詢問題來請王委員一串這次白蘭的立法要執行刑事法要重新違憲大法官已經解釋了調查中的案子監察院在查的 司法在查的"},{"start":2606.832,"end":2617.959,"text":"就不能行使啊你現在是在行使什麼 現在叫國會啊國會今天報告這兩個案子都在進行中啊一個監察院 一個署在進行中啊所以我不知道今天這個法案為什麼可以開啊啊大法官 他們把這個郵寶箱就跟你說不行啊 還說你是聽不懂你就不能行使這個調查權這就是進行中的案子啊 你現在是在開什麼法好來回復一下那個王委員逸川的說明第一個"},{"start":2636.465,"end":2655.857,"text":"目前我們針對國發基金調查委員會裡面現在在502所有調閱的文件範圍內容裡面完全不涉及到任何刑事司法在司法程序當中的案件內容這個是第一點的說明"},{"start":2658.291,"end":2674.262,"text":"不然你那個題目就已經不能調查這兩個案子都在進行中,是不是?啊就已經在進行中,你要調查啊大法官跟你說不行,你還要調查啊我們這個開這個會有什麼意義啊大法官就說不行,做的調查,做的內容啊大法官也是說這些都是違憲的啊你怎麼...你衝這個要幹嘛?"},{"start":2675.799,"end":2698.954,"text":"沒有 我可能還是要跟各位委員說明一下針對憲法法院他們判決相關的內容 我想恐怕還是要詳閱比較不會出現一些不必要的誤會我再說明一次 目前...你很厲害 你不是很厲害 大法官出現之後你還幫大法官解釋 你不是很厲害嗎?你告訴維生 你不是很厲害嗎?"},{"start":2698.954,"end":2705.038,"text":"還幫大法官解釋?我看人家說你要幫大法官說五四三"},{"start":2705.848,"end":2726.803,"text":"好謝謝王玉川委員我想大法官在憲法法院裡面的判決每一個條文哪一個部分可以行使哪一個部分不能夠行使我們從成立本調查委員會開始到現在完全都是按照憲判制相關的議制在進行"},{"start":2727.563,"end":2745.363,"text":"那我剛剛說明的客觀事實是說如果委員有到502會議室去看裡面相關所有會議的資訊的話就會清楚的發現裡面沒有任何調查中案件相關的卷證資料完全沒有"},{"start":2746.244,"end":2754.368,"text":"裡面有的全部都是我們的國發會跟國發基金那他們跟相關調閱範圍內的公司彼此往來的韓文"},{"start":2758.547,"end":2772.663,"text":"而這一些東西全部都是在可以調閱的範圍當中那也請大家要信任我們的國發會的同仁國發基金的同仁都是相當守法的不會把不可以調閱的範圍送到這邊來"},{"start":2778.73,"end":2791.281,"text":"你自己去解說這都沒有關係 都給你說就好了你覺得國發基金的高材 他們高材高薪違法這事情要怎麼處理都要你做法官 都要你判定 這個可以這個不可以你沒那麼厲害啦 真的沒那麼厲害啦 你說那些都沒有就沒有"},{"start":2796.534,"end":2821.342,"text":"我可能還是要跟各位委員稍微說明一下各位委員如果有下去502看會議資料在502的會議資料當中發現他們有提供什麼不能夠調閱的範圍都歡迎各位委員能夠表達意見不過我所看到的客觀事實是說似乎委員們也都沒有去看那個會議資料"},{"start":2822.742,"end":2828.726,"text":"在沒有看會議資料的你又知道啊你又知道啊你又知道啊你又知道啊主席你會這樣說嗎你會這樣說嗎你推論別人的行為真正你只要有的作為嗎你講什麼花膏你不要說我做主席喔做主席我們平常就去看不去看喔在那裡伺服補導會議有沒有啦"},{"start":2846.416,"end":2851.619,"text":"所以我現在就針對客觀的事實在回答問題嗎沒有關係啊那我們就按照客觀事實我要回答委員所提出來的問題嗎"},{"start":2870.367,"end":2884.885,"text":"我們每次到502去看會議資料的時候上面全部要簽到嘛那是不是可以請會務同仁現在去502把簽到表過去從調閱開始到目前為止的簽到表全部都拿上來"},{"start":2885.606,"end":2914.243,"text":"主席 這是您的權責 您要請圈道表拿來都沒問題來 我先你們就做這個事情啊 主席 請針對問題回答本會員會的標題是國家發展基金會不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會要調查的是國發基金的不當投資跟管理失職這裡面 這個標題裡面跟我們今天 剛剛本席就跟您一根請教我們這裡面所附的調閱文件"},{"start":2915.043,"end":2935.104,"text":"是對應著這個國家發展基金會的不當投資及管理失職的調查所以請國發基金會提供他105年的直接投資組合當中的這些內容第二項直接投資組合的新興事業第三項105年開始所謂的這個作業要點當中的事股"},{"start":2935.805,"end":2951.568,"text":"政策評估會議第四項這105年起所投資的這些往來的韓文是請問這四項資料當中有哪一個字提到爐心哪一個字提到再生能源聯合再生因為"},{"start":2952.569,"end":2972.821,"text":"我們要調查的是主體對象是國發基金有沒有不當投資所以調閱的這些內容是就一個原則105年之後的只要符合這些條件的通通調閱今天的會議通知您說這個不是您說啦就是我們看到的會議通知這裡面呢是要召開會議結果我們的會議呢開會是由"},{"start":2980.745,"end":2997.037,"text":"你要 我們開會是有寫喔 邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金會管理會召集人率所屬就國發基金投資爐心股份及聯合再生很清楚啊"},{"start":2998.106,"end":3020.821,"text":"你要去調查國發基金有沒有不當管理投資這是這個調查委員的本質是但是您調的那些資料我們委員會調的那些資料沒有講到爐心跟聯合再生但是您今天要求報告的題目內容指明了爐心跟聯合再生那這裡面很清楚嘛我們立法院職權行使法第四之二第二項"},{"start":3021.621,"end":3041.406,"text":"他說判決確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證立法院不得行使調查職權那麼其他的依法應獨立行使職權之機關本與職權調查中案件一同現在調查中處理職權調查中的案件"},{"start":3042.728,"end":3069.615,"text":"聯合再生目前是由監察院糾正我們正在調查當中那目前盧興他在制裁法案他在11年也有一個商訴至第18號的案件審理中台北地院11年他也是有個一審判決這些都告訴我們這兩個案件一個在司法審判審理中一個是在監察院的糾正調查當中"},{"start":3070.535,"end":3097.482,"text":"那如果說您今天的標題是就我們上次這個本委員會上次所調閱的這些資料這一二三四四大點資料您說要從這裡面我們要來瞭解哪些不當投資那這還沒有抵觸到地法院職權刑事法第四六條之二的第二項但是你直接點名了爐心跟聯合再生那你如何去說明我們這些案件"},{"start":3098.447,"end":3106.965,"text":"哪些內容是不是監察院是不是司法調查機關他曾經調閱的案件你說沒有錯啊這放在502啊"},{"start":3111.368,"end":3133.586,"text":"連銀本啊 這個都是一樣的所以呢 當你特別指涉講爐心跟聯合再生的時候你就要適正啊 去說明今天你為何可以繞過46之二第二項你對於一個司法審理當中跟一個監察院糾正當中的案件我們本委員會如何來進行調查權"},{"start":3137.008,"end":3164.631,"text":"所以剛剛本席就很清楚跟你問嘛調閱的文件是哪四項很清楚啊那四項啊這四項文件當中都是針對國發基金啊有針對蘆星嗎有針對聯合再生嗎所以當時雖然縱使用表決通過上不發生立即抵觸46之2第二項的問題但是你今天的會議開會你就直接要求國發會來報告蘆星跟聯合再生那你要調查他們這兩個公司的什麼內容"},{"start":3166.124,"end":3179.351,"text":"至不至於違反立執法所規定這四項說明啊你不說明那就調查啦來 你問完了嘛來 我先回答鍾嘉斌委員的問題那吳志耀委員請稍後因為"},{"start":3180.39,"end":3205.242,"text":"我們在處理問題的時候我們在處理問題的時候把層次分清楚這樣比較不會混第一個事情是說我剛之所以說如果大家有下去看裡面的文件的話就會了解那裡面調閱的範圍的內容完全都沒有"},{"start":3206.448,"end":3223.146,"text":"真審當中的案件也沒有真審當中的資料這個一定要把它講清楚啦因為我必須要幫我們國發會還有國發基金的同仁講話他們都非常的奉公守法嘛怎麼會把不可以提供的資料提供給本調查委員會呢"},{"start":3224.502,"end":3241.964,"text":"那我剛剛用似乎這兩個字有委員抗議說我怎麼可以用似乎不是很確定大家是不是有去看那所以呢我就特別剛剛請了惠夫同仁下去把我們目前資料層列處查閱人員登記簿"},{"start":3244.568,"end":3262.959,"text":"的資料拿來了因為有委員要進去這個會議室裡面查閱任何資料我們問的不是事故是不是事實是你說的事故的這個是陳述啊跟我們要問的本題無關我們的本題是今天的報告事項當中要求報告如心跟聯絡戰聲跟我們502所呈現的資料有什麼關聯"},{"start":3268.243,"end":3291.682,"text":"我們不是要質疑說這些資料當中有違反在射送當中的文件不是這個意思我要問的是說你為什麼剛剛的這些內容會變成這兩個公司先停一下我一樣一樣就回答嘛剛剛有委員說用市府這兩個字就不是很恰當所以我才特別請他們把登記簿拿來看"},{"start":3292.583,"end":3303.449,"text":"那我看完了以後,現在不是失誤,是確實就沒有去看確實就沒有去看上面非常多人都沒有去看啊我上面只要看查閱委的簽名就知道了"},{"start":3315.559,"end":3331.83,"text":"從頭到尾去查閱的就是只有我一個人啊對啊 所以你們其他人都沒有去看我從頭到尾都沒有說錯啊我從頭到尾都沒有說錯啊問的是資料跟盧溫馨跟林鄭什麼關係哎喲 每天都這樣亂"},{"start":3341.701,"end":3368.916,"text":"那這似乎就是保留大家的面子嘛開會就是你提出一點主席才必須要說明就這樣子嘛你要提問題要不然人家說開會的時候就這樣你們也要講的講東講西有什麼好講的他答覆的非常清楚啦謝謝謝謝不好意思非常感謝各位委員那第二個是在下面調閱所有的資料"},{"start":3370.274,"end":3395.425,"text":"涉及到的就是兩個問題第一個當初投資的決策第二個以及投資以後的管理第三個是事故的作業跟評估我再強調一次大家下去看就會知道只有這三樣資料第一個投資的決策第二個投資以後的管理第三個事故以後的評估"},{"start":3396.693,"end":3417.281,"text":"至於剛剛你們所講的 什麼偵審當中的資料裡面完全都沒有 完全都沒有第二個部分 那剛剛也有委員吹詢那為什麼是針對有關於第五十二條 所有去看過的人不得已對你看過的任何東西"},{"start":3419.416,"end":3431.031,"text":"調閱調查調閱內容處理情形予以揭露你剛剛去你看過了然後你揭露了裡面的什麼東西然後告訴我們那些沒有司法真相你已經違反立法院職權刑事法第52條你自己知道嗎你看過的東西你就不能講欸開什麼玩笑"},{"start":3436.198,"end":3452.184,"text":"沒有啦 我絕對立法院職權行使法的解釋我等一下再回覆嘛但是我現在 你又大罵官啊 你又解釋啊我現在還在回覆總委員嘉賓所提出來的問題我是謙虛 因為你現在說的 你會違法沒有關係 那你如果覺得我違法歡迎你去台北地檢署告發"},{"start":3453.629,"end":3470.692,"text":"好那我現在就繼續把話給講下去嗎是是是等一下就歡迎你直接去告發第二個部分剛剛中委會說那為什麼今天挑盧欣跟聯合再撐我要跟大家報告的事情是"},{"start":3471.753,"end":3493.438,"text":"我們今天在調查的範圍是從105年起投資的事業105年起投資的事業總共下面的公司序號我跟大家說裡面下面公司序號總共有37個公司37個公司的內容都在下面"},{"start":3495.319,"end":3523.194,"text":"這37個公司的資料我在利用過去這兩個月可以調閱的時間當中我都去看了我看完了以後發現裡面的資料量非常非常的大非常非常的大因為這個調查委員會我們最後是要出調查報告的是要出調查報告今天只是先就之前大家討論比較多的兩家公司排第一次的報告"},{"start":3523.894,"end":3543.804,"text":"因為後面包括很多其他的公司所謂包括很多其他的公司全部都在調閱範圍之內的包括了有關台山水牛的包括了有關造園公司的包括有關KK Day的包括有關"},{"start":3547.235,"end":3565.501,"text":"那一家公司稍微等我一下因為那家公司的名稱比較拗口一點佳樂再生公司的這些公司我們都會依序都會依序讓國發基金他們有說明的機會因為我們在出最後的調查報告以前"},{"start":3566.081,"end":3582.087,"text":"不好意思我先把問題給回答完因為這個講的事情我們當時在院會在通過這個不當調查委員會的時候就已經說要特定範圍你講的這樣等於是沒有特定有啊剛剛我不是跟各位委員講"},{"start":3583.087,"end":3604.853,"text":"37家這就沒有特定了啊你說不當投資你要應該要先設定哪幾家是不當投資然後才可以去去查這家公司的資料因為你剛剛念了這麼多公司這些公司你沒有設定他不當投資你就先把他叫來看然後看了後我再去找問題再去說他是不當投資所以我一開始就"},{"start":3606.514,"end":3627.993,"text":"呃在我們院會處理的時候我就說4至585號你要成立調查委員會你必須要有一個特定事項就是你主席你剛剛講的叫做包山包海這37家好你認定爐心你認定人和在心是屬於不當投資那應該就把在我們的這一個審查的委員會結果你剛剛講的就是你先你先劃拔"},{"start":3628.954,"end":3645.229,"text":"再射箭你把37家找來然後你再去找這邊那你這樣的話你就完全違法這個四字五八五號啊完全沒有特定啊我覺得這是一個前提問題我再跟那個蔡委員一語說明一下第一個"},{"start":3647.01,"end":3656.117,"text":"這個調查委員會要調查的是是不是有不當投資如果我已經說我們一開始就在討論不當投資的範圍要確定不當投資的範圍要先請你去看當初院會我們提案的內容提案的內容是說是否有不當投資"},{"start":3666.664,"end":3690.711,"text":"是否不當投資這件事情你要先說好人家那你不是檢察官啊我們這裡也不是檢察官我們怎麼可以把一個原本是正常的公司結果你就去翻他的資料去看這些公司的資料我覺得我們不是檢察官立法委員權利不可以摸到直接手去摸人家的私人企業所以我們現在並沒有要進行任何的刑事調查"},{"start":3691.815,"end":3718.886,"text":"刑事調查但是你剛剛就在說我接下來要查台山我要查什麼KK什麼這些公司這些公司到底有沒有不當投資這件事情還沒有成立是就是這個調查委員會要調查的事項啊那是我們調查你怎麼可以先假設他有不當投資然後去拿他的資料對嘛所以我想你對法律的人權這件事情你應該有一個基本的概念吧是那請問現在侵犯到誰的人權這些企業啊"},{"start":3722.167,"end":3730.86,"text":"就是他除了蘆星跟人和再生是我們非常明顯特定的一個標的之外剩下的公司你要怎麼說他有不當投資呢"},{"start":3732.233,"end":3756.074,"text":"我必須要再跟蔡委員講過有沒有不當投資這件事情我們不會先設建再劃把倒不是剛剛你所講的先劃把再設建我們不會先設建再劃把那因此當然要經過調查委員會調查的程序才有辦法做認定嘛"},{"start":3756.835,"end":3780.949,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下剛剛您所垂詢的事項我再跟您報告一次喔這37家公司的資料是依照我們的決議我們給了國發會跟國發基金了以後他們所提供的資料這37家的公司我們當初在通過這個決議都已經把它特定出來特定完了以後"},{"start":3781.869,"end":3805.967,"text":"我在過去這兩個月我下去看我看了的確有很多公司沒有問題沒有問題我就不會排他們報告但看了以後有疑問的就要請他們做報告這個才是調查委員會我們沒有預設任何立場應該有的進行方式啊我如果說今天就已經認定了他有不當投資的話那那個才是先設建再劃吧"},{"start":3806.987,"end":3826.843,"text":"這個是調查委員會我們在進行的時候就是要去評估他有沒有涉及到不當投資有沒有涉及在投資了以後國發基金該好好管理卻沒有管理以及在相關的事股作業上是不是有問題這一些我們這個委員會這一些跟實施司法我一開始就在特定是爐心這點很改善37家公司的名單都在這邊怎麼會沒特定呢"},{"start":3836.591,"end":3853.696,"text":"這個是你後來請他們去把105年請他們把有參與投資的對你就等於把他們有參與投資的都先把它做了一個叫做不當投資然後就把這些資料把它拿過來我還是要再說一次啊本調查委員的目的是就是否有不當投資要進行調查所以怎麼會"},{"start":3859.071,"end":3872.604,"text":"如同蔡委員所講的那個才是先設建再劃拔是否有沒有不當投資這件事怎麼會由我們調查委員來決定呢如果公司的股票跌了就是不當投資那你要怎麼認定是不當投資"},{"start":3876.508,"end":3889.868,"text":"是不是有不當投資這件事情請容我說明一下國發基金拿納稅人的錢去做投資是不是有涉及到不當投資的這件事情"},{"start":3890.128,"end":3918.997,"text":"但是不是你說的算啊也不是我們委員會可以去認出所以我到現在都還沒有做結論啊我們是立法委員我們沒有調查權去說他是不當投資那你現在要特定說因為現在盧鑫跟聯合再生有這樣的高度爭議現在我們的議題應該要限縮在這兩家公司你怎麼可以擴散出去變37家我從我們在成立這樣的一個調查委員會的時候上個會期我就不斷堅持這一點我們的手不可以直接伸到私人公司上面去"},{"start":3919.946,"end":3944.651,"text":"好 謝謝蔡委員您的詮詢 我有回答了那現在請吳委員私邀謝謝主席我想對於這個立法院要成立這一個所謂國發基金不當投資暨管理失職的調查委員會從成立之初 民進黨團的態度就非常的清楚立法院不要再違憲了"},{"start":3946.411,"end":3969.167,"text":"我們不要去成立一個已經被大法官宣告是違憲的調查委員會從第一次開會我坐在這裡就已經親自的揭示多次黃國昌總召黃國昌召集人您忘了8月6號在憲法法庭您怎麼被黃昭元大法官洗臉的嗎"},{"start":3970.72,"end":3991.84,"text":"立法院不能为了调查而调查立法院当然可以有调查权但是它是辅助性的用白话文讲它就是不能为了调查而调查查弊案到底是不是宪法赋予立法院的目的性的权利呢"},{"start":3993.072,"end":4011.869,"text":"那么立法院为了调查而调查之后能做什么是诉诸刑事责任吗还是像监察院一样可以追究弹劾呢这是8月6号黄昭元大法官在透过宪法法庭上对您做出的很多的提示"},{"start":4012.95,"end":4035.622,"text":"那第一次在開這個調查委員會之前吳思瑤從頭到尾只堅持一件事情請召集人要講清楚說明白國發基金投資了百所千所的公司從重大投資案到新創投資案到我們現在吳思瑤一直努力的協助這些文化產業的投資案何其之多"},{"start":4036.542,"end":4053.679,"text":"你到底要調查什麼這個委員會到底你想要探知的是什麼那我現在終於狐狸露出尾巴了看出您所說的確實第一階段你優先要查的就是我們多次提醒"},{"start":4054.741,"end":4075.903,"text":"已經有訴訟中的案件以及有監察院調查中的案件也就是如新跟聯合再生狐狸終於露出尾巴了你優先要查的姑且不論你剛剛要列出一個二三十間你後面要來查的有哪些這個階段第一階段你就是鎖定了"},{"start":4077.065,"end":4087.539,"text":"憲法不允許你現在可以把手伸到檢調機關伸到監察院的職權裡面的這兩間如新跟聯合再生"},{"start":4088.786,"end":4101.475,"text":"這是第一次在這裡開會 我們看到了具體的針對這兩間我就說這就是狐狸露出了尾巴 當初您都不敢承認好 那我再講過來 立法委員有這麼大嗎您剛剛講的 我們就是要查他有沒有不當投資所以來調閱資料"},{"start":4112.679,"end":4129.953,"text":"立法委員可以針對一個空泛的我甚至不知道你有沒有不當投資我就懷疑然後我就來是不是有不當投資我們就來調你公司的很多東西來這裡立委愛看什麼就看什麼"},{"start":4132.003,"end":4155.435,"text":"502辦公室所陳列的資料我告訴你我們當然不會去我們不會做違憲的立委我們不會做違法的立委我們不會縱容自己成為凌駕檢調機關 凌駕司法凌駕監察院的這種太上立委我們當然不會去看因為"},{"start":4156.616,"end":4178.384,"text":"我們去看就成了共犯啦 違憲的共犯啦講回來 立委可以為了一個空犯你的想像 你的妄想是不是有不當投資我們先來調一團團股資料來看看您剛剛講因為國發基金投資的就是民脂民膏所以立委有權力查 那你就去質詢的時候好好質詢啊我可以舉個例子啊"},{"start":4181.943,"end":4208.791,"text":"某某政黨他的政治獻金也來自於民脂民膏啊立法委員可以因為我懷疑他是不是有違法收受政治獻金或是我懷疑他是不是有不當利用政治獻金或是是不是有黨主席把政治獻金放到自己的口袋或者是這個政黨有沒有用自己的黨工用什麼donate然後進到這個政治獻金然後又進到自己的口袋"},{"start":4210.034,"end":4212.14,"text":"然後立法院來成立一個"},{"start":4214.013,"end":4240.822,"text":"查查的調查委員會你如果針對某一個公司某一件事情就如同我講的監察院現在在查某某政黨的政治獻金是因為有明確被舉發他的違法之處或是涉及違法之處監察院才能啟動調查今天立法委員可以用你自己一個人你的假設你的主觀的假設"},{"start":4242.582,"end":4256.854,"text":"我懷疑這幾家公司因為有國發基金的投資可能有不當投資是不是有不當投資不知道所以我們要來查然後把人家公司企業所有的資料都搬來這裡給你看個夠"},{"start":4259.707,"end":4277.355,"text":"如果這樣那立法院是不是也可以說我懷疑國發基金投資台積電台積電有沒有我們投資當中有不當投資所以要把台積電大大小小的資料搬到立法院502辦公室可能不夠用可能要用大議場"},{"start":4278.956,"end":4294.227,"text":"的空間 才夠你看 才夠你調閱我們可以在一個事實不明確 就奠基於您一個人的想像 甚至是不當的連結入人於罪 然後現在來調資料 來找出喔 對對對 找出對你自己有利"},{"start":4300.458,"end":4328.35,"text":"的說法立法委員不能這樣耶立法委員不能這樣耶我已經多次說了您要了解國發基金對於很多企業的投資是否有政策面的不當這應當到經濟委員會去好好質詢國發基金您也可以利用你們最會砍預算 刪預算 動預算啊如果你有明確認為國發基金對於某間公司"},{"start":4329.11,"end":4350.77,"text":"那投資是不正確的那你可以透過你質詢或者是一決預算或者是修改法律案這是立法委員的職權但立法委員沒有一個可以比照檢調的調查權或是比照監察院的調查權那不是我們的核心權力領域啊"},{"start":4351.531,"end":4372.092,"text":"立法委員的調查權是輔助性的是輔助性的是輔助性而不是目的性的這已經在憲法法庭黃昭元大法官也好蔡忠貞大法官也好游伯祥大法官也好一再一再一再的打臉了黃國昌委員您現在還要做這個違憲的調查委員會"},{"start":4375.253,"end":4394.233,"text":"我還要說您剛剛在回答委員的題目的時候您有說我是要了解國發會呢對於這個投資的決策是什麼或者是對於這個投資後的管理是什麼或者是這個事故之後的投資有沒有得允"},{"start":4395.667,"end":4417.613,"text":"這些題目不就是你在經濟委員會質詢的標的嗎我也要提醒喔國發基金就以您現在鎖定的如新跟聯合再生這兩個案子都有檢調在查都有監察院在查其實這兩個案子我們國發基金所佔的我們是小股東你知道嗎"},{"start":4418.806,"end":4438.862,"text":"您知道我們對於如心的投資佔比是股權是多少%嗎對於聯合再生是多少%嗎國發基金分別持有如心公司9.06%持有聯合再生公司6.09%你要求國發基金去介入這個公司的營運嗎"},{"start":4442.574,"end":4463.289,"text":"你是逼著公務員去違法你知道嗎你現在不只逼著這些坐在這裡的在場的不同黨籍的委員逼著你一起去做違憲的共犯你甚至逼著國發會的這些同仁多麼辛苦去找出翻出你說的502辦公室你要他們提供的資料你知道他們多麼辛苦嗎因為他們提供這個提供那個可能都違法違憲你是逼公務人員違法欸"},{"start":4471.855,"end":4485.791,"text":"你立委你自己要違憲 那是你做的事你逼公務人員違法你知不知道你在502辦公室所調閱的資料這些公務同仁是多麼辛苦的"},{"start":4486.732,"end":4506.885,"text":"去避免踩到違憲的疑慮我現在講的每一件事情來辯駁沒有關係啊我講的哪一件事情在法律上 在憲法的機制上在公司治理的階段在立法院職權的行使我講的哪一個部分是不正確的 是不正確的呢我們好好來討論一下 不好意思 聰明委員"},{"start":4513.269,"end":4514.791,"text":"我沒有提到你個人喔我沒有提到你個人啊不要說到刪預算 動議刪你們就跳腳不要這樣心虛好嗎我從頭到尾有講到說"},{"start":4538.552,"end":4558.137,"text":"我是說你要行使對於國發會的監督你可以用你的法律的立法你可以用你審查預算的權利你可以用你這些憲法所賦予立委的職權去進行所以不要逼公務同仁違法也不要逼這些立委跟著你違憲我們繼續坐在這裡就是陪你黃國昌一個人做秀啦"},{"start":4565.373,"end":4570.518,"text":"就是陪你公子讀書啦 請跟中國人發言好嗎?我們可以以為華為公司 柯林不當投資所以我們如果他公司所有的東西搬來 你可以看我們可以這樣嗎?"},{"start":4570.518,"end":4571.118,"text":"你看他有這麼大嗎?"},{"start":4588.65,"end":4596.637,"text":"國發基金投資如心圖,投資聯合在社會不到10%我們可以要求國發基金去主導他們公司所有的割測,可以這樣嗎?可不可以這樣?這道理要說得清楚啊國發基金不能介入公司的實質經營啊不要逼國發會違法我最後一點"},{"start":4611.75,"end":4624.999,"text":"如果黃國昌 趙偉 您認為你確實掌有了聯合再生也好 如新也好 新的犯法的事證非常好您不應當包庇或隱匿 直接就去檢調機關 相關機關去舉發"},{"start":4628.181,"end":4644.348,"text":"這是您該做的事 這是您該做的事而不是基於你一個無限想像力的 虛妄的這種假設它可能不當投資 是不是有不當投資專播公司的資料刮刮來 大家看清楚不可以這樣啦 公德力 依法"},{"start":4650.828,"end":4672.3,"text":"不要再違憲我今天講的每個事情我沒有動氣我非常理性的就法理就憲法來跟大家來辯論歡迎來辯論我們的大檢察官吳宗憲一直露出很奇怪的表情沒有關係如果您是捍衛法律人的尊嚴的話您的微笑好像怪怪的好不好謝謝你的微笑謝謝你的微笑"},{"start":4673.2,"end":4688.072,"text":"好謝謝你善意的微笑不是詭異的微笑是善意的微笑所以我們應該好好的我再次說違法的會議違憲的調查委員會真的我們不可以做違憲的立委而民進黨的委員拒絕做違憲的立委"},{"start":4690.735,"end":4711.501,"text":"好,謝謝吳思耀委員因為裡面假序假意有很多的意見意見表達我們都尊重不過我再次的跟本委員會的委員說明第一個下面不是裡面公司什麼內部營運的資料全部搬來沒有這樣的事情大家只要有去看就會知道"},{"start":4712.681,"end":4736.251,"text":"國發基金的同仁他們是很守法的他們是很辛苦的要配合您的要求去伸出你想看的東西還是請吳委員尊重一下主席啦因為剛你在發言的時候我似乎都沒有插嘴嘛就讓你盡情的講嘛那不要說你講話的時候我沒插嘴我在講話的時候你就恣意按麥克風插嘴這樣恐怕不好啦"},{"start":4737.051,"end":4751.932,"text":"我還是要再度的說明大家有下去看下面的資料就會知道公務員他們就是依照我們這個委員會以及院會的決議的範圍讓他們提供的文件讓大家去看"},{"start":4752.893,"end":4770.75,"text":"那看完了以後大家也會很清楚的知道這個完全都是在線判製做完了判決了以後所設定的範圍所提供的資料裡面沒有任何跟司法案件相關審理的資料"},{"start":4771.471,"end":4799.965,"text":"大家只要下去看就知道了因為你不能不去看然後又說那裡面有不應該提供的範圍那這樣子我們事實上很難本於事實在事實的基礎上面討論好那我們接下來是不是就可以請那個來請中委員嘉賓謝謝主席主席剛剛到現在的答詢答覆詢問就一個很清楚的完全是基於事實"},{"start":4801.326,"end":4829.5,"text":"就是從上次委員會透過表決通過決議要求調閱的四大項的資料只有黃昭偉一個人去看過這說明了什麼這似乎說明了這個委員會是黃昭偉一人的興趣委員會因為調的這些資料只有黃昭偉有興趣有時間有意願去查閱這是第一個呢我覺得"},{"start":4830.68,"end":4856.082,"text":"接下來要說的是第三點就是結論的建議第二點從剛剛的發言並不是去指涉剛剛那四大項資料當中有違反我們立法院職權行使法透過憲判說這些資料裡面已經有設在審理中的勸忠不是這個意思不是這個意思"},{"start":4856.898,"end":4885.065,"text":"這些資料之所以列成這四大項就是因為他沒有抵觸這些資料的內容是沒有抵觸我們的憲判制的解釋也沒有抵觸立職法所以列了那四個資料但是為什麼後來那個決議會寫成這樣的一個內容呢請大家回顧一下當時在院會提案的時候是直接提案人直接指名要調查盧鑫跟聯合再審"},{"start":4886.434,"end":4908.648,"text":"就是直接指名盧欣跟聯合再生啊但是因為憲判之後盧欣跟聯合再生他本身一個系屬法院審理當中一個是監察院調查當中都不能成為我們委員會我們本委員會進行調查權 行使調查權的對象所以所以這個提案呢就轉了個彎說是要調查國發會的不當投資好"},{"start":4914.349,"end":4929.834,"text":"不當投資總是要有一個事蹟吧到底是哪些讓我們覺得他有不當投資或許提案人認為發生了爐心的弊案發生了這個聯合再生被這個監察院調查中或許國發基金真的有問題"},{"start":4933.956,"end":4946.582,"text":"基於這樣的一個懷疑通過了要調查四大項資料就是先押人後取供這個吳宗憲召委很清楚就是覺得之前你們家被偷了"},{"start":4947.819,"end":4968.092,"text":"你們家被偷了 現在一個可能涉案人被抓在警察局 要送到法院 一個在做筆錄所以認為管倉庫的人有問題 所以要把管倉庫的人調來把管倉庫所有的進出的記錄都拿出來 看看是不是管倉庫的人沒有管好勾結 堅守 治道 才會發生了可能疑似的竊案"},{"start":4969.062,"end":4997.873,"text":"所以基於爐心跟聯合再生已經依在司法審理中依在監察院調查中都不能成為立法院自宣刑事法的調查人士的對象所以改為要調查國發會是否國發基金管理不當這個已經非常牽強了也是為什麼我們上次在委員會的時候我們認為這個標題你根本沒有辦法說出國發基金哪裡管理不當那個具體是由就是硬是要調查所以框了包山包海框了四大箱資料"},{"start":4998.851,"end":5026.65,"text":"好了 如果框了這四大項資料呢真的被一人召委興趣看到的有其他的公司有類似還沒有被司法偵辦調查沒有被監察院調查的 有類似的情節你覺得呢 立法院要率先來調查那這個公司 可能的公司是涉及到國發基金不當管理的那你可以把這個公司列出來"},{"start":5027.452,"end":5050.937,"text":"但是這個公司不應該是李如欣跟聯合再生啊因為只要入國發基金管理上有涉及到如欣跟聯合再生相關的不當他都已經在法院的審理範圍跟監察院的調查範圍所以如果說我們的招委一人只有他一個人有興趣看到這所有資料他真的覺得如欣"},{"start":5051.946,"end":5071.685,"text":"跟李和再生真的有涉及到國發基金的不當管理那應該趕快他把他發現的這些事實送交給正在審理中的司法單位去看一看說不只這個爐心這個爐心呢他上面呢這個國發基金的有些管理不當可能也涉及違法請你們一併調查"},{"start":5073.922,"end":5088.876,"text":"又或者是認為聯合再生監察院的糾正調查當中你發現不只是這個監察院調查的對象你發現國發基金哪一些公務人員也涉及到可能有組織適當請監察院一併調查不是在這裡我們針對爐心跟聯合再生我們來要求國發基金國發會來報告"},{"start":5097.418,"end":5103.34,"text":"他如何能報告這兩個案子他要報告說我沒有投資不當我沒有管理不當嗎"},{"start":5105.733,"end":5133.176,"text":"國發基金如果真有管理不當真有在爐心或者說這個案子上設有一些為師那也應該是司法權 司法院傳訊的對象啊怎麼會是我們這個委員會在調查呢所以最後的結論建議主席如果真的您花了那麼多時間只有你一位去看了那四大項國發會所提供的這些資料那你發現除了聯合財政跟爐心之外"},{"start":5133.991,"end":5148.604,"text":"您發現有類似情節而且不只是涉案公司可能是涉及到國發基金或公務員國發基金會 國發會有管理不當的你就把它拿出來告訴我們可列為我們今天委員會的討論標的也請國發會就您所發現的這些內容"},{"start":5153.578,"end":5166.877,"text":"我反對我們有不同的看法沒關係我講完如果說你認為是這樣那你好歹不能是爐心跟聯合再生我再強調一次我並不見得認為我們待會看的資料"},{"start":5168.004,"end":5184.326,"text":"在502的那些資料502是不是屬於目前我們歷史法當中所限制的資料但是至少不是這兩個案子那我們也尊重其他委員所以表示我們委員對於今天要討論的內容我們有各自的看法那我也是建請主席要了解說明"},{"start":5185.478,"end":5202.558,"text":"主席不好意思他不是要我說明嗎所以現在是要我說明還是不要我說明所以你是建議我要說明我不一定要說明是嗎因為我也要確定清楚嘛所以現在到底要不要我說明現在是需要我說明還是不要我說明主席我剛剛最後一個是建議建議說我們的標題啊"},{"start":5205.441,"end":5229.367,"text":"可能我們表達重新怕我們的發言被誤會我剛剛說主席不斷地強調我們在華語502的資料當中有屬於例子法限制不能調查的內容我說不是我是說我認為今天的標題不能叫國發會來報告這兩家公司或許主席有發現其他的公司值得我們來了解國發會是有不當管理的這樣子說明"},{"start":5230.892,"end":5254.064,"text":"所以總委員希望我說明嗎好來先請蔡委員我先講一下就是說主席這是兩個層次的問題第一個層次是爐心跟聯合再生因為這個是一開始我們在成立調查委員會那大家說因為這個有弊案所以你想要去把這個弊案去做發掘然後去說國發基金在投資的時候是否有不但"},{"start":5254.944,"end":5281.621,"text":"那我強調就是說在於說我們成立調查委員他本質上立法院的調查權是一個輔助性的權利那輔助什麼就是輔助我們立法委員我們要有法律我們法律案預算案人事同意案那如果說盧興跟聯合再生有涉及到不法好牽扯到要修法牽扯到我們對預算的通過是有意見的"},{"start":5282.915,"end":5308.084,"text":"那這兩案就夠了啦就夠我們去行使我們因為這是一個輔助性權利這個權利就夠了我們先不要講這兩個案又有沒有涉及到4至325或791號有另外的問題但是呢我們現在成立了調查委員會後我們卻把所謂調查委員必須要對於特定事項才可以調查這件事你把特定事項放得這麼大"},{"start":5310.402,"end":5329.526,"text":"105年後的投資全部是我們調查委員會假設他不當投資把他假設不當投資後叫他調組了來看主席我跟你說你不要用這麼青睿的態度去面對你現在做的是侵害人權侵害到每一個公司他自己的一個一個營業秘密喔我覺得我們每一個立委你說502你要不然你是用這37間公司我們不可能去看"},{"start":5339.807,"end":5356.717,"text":"看了就違憲欸怎麼可以這樣主席你看 你在笑 可是你再自己思考一下我們是立法委員欸吳宗憲檢察官 我們不是你像你有檢察官你現在也不是檢察官了你怎麼可以對一個還沒有違法沒有人去舉發他違法不是我們立法委員的職權你就叫他逐條傳播過來我在場我是直接要求"},{"start":5370.61,"end":5378.535,"text":"盧鑫跟林鄭再生如果這件事在我們不當調查委員會這還有爭議這個資料把它保留剩下35家公司都退回怎麼可以這樣立法委員怎麼可以把我們的調查權輔助性的權利去某人的私人公司這亂搞欸所以蔡委員是基本上是意見的表達嗎"},{"start":5399.731,"end":5419.387,"text":"對那我要說明的事情是我們從院會過了決議那到委員會提供了調閱的範圍那我們的議事同仁也依照委員會所通過調閱的範圍發文給了國發會跟國發基金不是這樣的當時在通過的時候我們都講清楚要有特定事項"},{"start":5420.288,"end":5440.473,"text":"是特定事項就是說獨行跟銀河再生啊那個請蔡委員再回去看一下院會當初過決議的內容在委員會就調閱的文書的範圍也通過了決議我們依照這個決議主席你要針對你違憲你去侵害人權的事要抓國民黨來背書嗎"},{"start":5442.216,"end":5461.149,"text":"那個蔡委員我尊重你個人的意見發表不好意思我依序回答好我依序回答好嗎因為你們這樣大家搶著麥克風要發言因為我覺得聽起來絕大多數都是個人意見的表達嘛"},{"start":5461.869,"end":5465.593,"text":"我再把程序講清楚這是憲法層次 對不起不要評價委員的提案這是憲法層次的問題不能違憲 你說什麼我們是個人幹嘛 個人意見而已嗎那這個委員會就是你個人意見而成立的一人委員會啊一人作秀委員會啊"},{"start":5479.218,"end":5503.003,"text":"你做這樣子的人身攻擊我是沒辦法接受啦不過沒有關係啦我要再說明的事情是什麼整個程序上院會做了決議委員會做了決議我們的議事同仁依照決議的內容發函給國發會跟國發基金國發會跟國發基金也依照調閱的特定範圍送來了這些公司的資料"},{"start":5503.743,"end":5523.075,"text":"那這些公司的資料我也再三的跟各位委員很相似的報告裡面不是什麼這家公司裡面所有營運的資料就沒有這回事只有他們在決定要不要投資的時候的評估資料以及投資了以後他們的管理資料因為"},{"start":5524.496,"end":5537.765,"text":"國發基金針對每一家公司他們有董事席次的在國發基金每一次他們的董事會要開董事會的時候針對董事會所議決的事項都會請國發基金表達意見"},{"start":5543.789,"end":5567.543,"text":"國發基金在每一次董事會旁邊都會有一個審核意見那個審核意見就是他們代表國家的立場派去的董事在針對那一次的議案他們所要表達的意見大概資料就是這些東西那至於說剛剛委員有提到有關於憲判制的 您說的沒有錯"},{"start":5569.451,"end":5586.8,"text":"不符合憲判制的東西完全在下面的502都沒有提供啊這個是我一而再再而三的說啊所以我很相信我們的國發會跟國發基金的同仁他們的專業去違反憲判制的東西他們怎麼會提供呢"},{"start":5587.779,"end":5613.616,"text":"那至於說還有委員在講說那個什麼監察院調查中跟法院判決審理中這個我覺得可能還是要把話講清楚啦因為有的時候你在發表一些意見的時候如果不是用事實當基礎這樣會沒有討...這樣很難討論第一個聯合再生的部分聯合再生的部分監察院已經調查完也糾正完了是啊"},{"start":5618.154,"end":5629.983,"text":"沒有 都結案了 就結案才會發糾正文啊他一定要先調查 調查完了認為有違司才會發糾正文啊沒有 他還沒有結案喔"},{"start":5631.451,"end":5655.187,"text":"你可能回去再把你回去再把糾正文看清楚啦如果調查沒有結束就發糾正文那我們的監察院不是違法亂紀嗎先調查調查完了以後才會發糾正文這個順序我先跟大家說明清楚第二個針對有關於爐心的部分"},{"start":5656.067,"end":5667.302,"text":"大家去看一下在盧新的起訴書他涉及到的範圍是什麼他涉及到的範圍是當初依照政交法在公告的併購範圍明明就"},{"start":5671.072,"end":5691.361,"text":"明明就併購的時候明明就應該要有河南的孟爾羅公司結果後來偷偷把它剔除在外那個是違反證券交易法的部分跟這一次我們所在調查的國發基金他們的投資有沒有不當"},{"start":5692.361,"end":5717.981,"text":"以及投資以後的管理有沒有不當是兩件完全不一樣的事情今天不是一個特定的公司他有因為特定的案件而射送那不管他射送的範圍其他通通跟射送範圍沒有關係的全部因為這家公司射送所以其他跟射送範圍沒有關係的全部都不在調查的範圍之內全部都在違憲的範圍之內"},{"start":5719.682,"end":5745.064,"text":"我想恐怕這客觀的事實還是要做說明那最後我還是要澄清一點就是說所有的資料調閱來了以後大家都可以按照規定去調閱那我也是按照規定去調閱其中的一個委員那至於說其他的委員認為有沒有調閱的必要這個我都尊重我一點意見都沒有就好像"},{"start":5747.006,"end":5760.504,"text":"之前2013年的時候立法院那個時候針對是不是有非法關說是不是有違法監聽成立調閱委員會的時候那個時候我雖然還不是立法委員"},{"start":5761.621,"end":5782.08,"text":"但我那個時候是院外由立法院請的調閱委員之一等於是院外委員那個時候我在中央研究院服務那個調閱委員會的文件我真的有去看因為我受立法院的委託我就很負責任去看我看了一個禮拜結果當初成立那些調閱委員會的委員都沒有人去看"},{"start":5785.049,"end":5811.687,"text":"那當時我也不會去質疑啊質疑說難不成2013年的時候成立那個吊躍委員會而且還是民主進步黨的委員提案成立的是為了讓院外的黃國昌作秀所以才成立這個吊躍委員會所以我覺得你有沒有去看這件事情在邏輯的鋪陳上面啊恐怕這樣子說不是很恰當OK 好 那我們最後再請吳委員施養"},{"start":5815.184,"end":5841.197,"text":"再細究一下昭緯這裡所發的調閱文件跟資料的四大點的範圍第一點是行政院國發基金對於美國105年起所投資的直接投資組合中的重要新興事業當中的歷年持股比例變化歷年投資金額歷年供股的代表名單歷年投資績效與虧損情形這是第一大項"},{"start":5842.418,"end":5860.878,"text":"第二項國發基金對於民國15年起所投資的直接投資組合中央信息業所評選所召開的所有會議的會議記錄會議簽到等等這是第二項第三個您要的是國發基金召開的市股政策評估會議的記錄"},{"start":5863.256,"end":5882.815,"text":"會議資料 簽到表最後一項呢 您所知的是調閱的是國發基金和國發基金管理委員會呢105年起所投資的這些東西的所有往來的韓文範圍非常多 非常大容我提醒一下黃國昌 昭偉"},{"start":5885.091,"end":5895.107,"text":"剛剛我們為什麼一直在講大法官解釋585號以及這次憲判第9號所有的內容因為他一再的提示了我們"},{"start":5896.789,"end":5917.583,"text":"委员可以有调查权立法委员可以有调查权但它是辅助性的权利而不是目的性的权利这就是立法委员不是为了查弊为了调查而调查你所行使的调查权必须回应在你审预算的参照或者是你审法案的时候你所要来参照或者是参考"},{"start":5918.584,"end":5940.556,"text":"所以容我提醒您黃國昌委員您在這個院會成立這個委員會的時候您確實第一次的時候你並沒有照大法官解釋輔助性權利的部分找出一個你要修法的標的後來在院會成立委員會的時候很好你知道不怕幫了所以你去周出了一個呢你是為了要修這個產創條例30條你是為了修產創條例30條這個條文"},{"start":5947.955,"end":5960.331,"text":"所以你要調閱這些東西大家想想它的關聯性就您所提的你要修的產創條例30條的第一項您是要修第五款"},{"start":5961.687,"end":5979.32,"text":"第五款您要修的文字是說前項國發基金之運用不得用於三項情形這是您想要修法的第一個企業虧損之紓困第二個投資主要生產活動位於中國大陸的企業"},{"start":5980.541,"end":6004.16,"text":"第三個投資過去三年違反環保勞工食安等法律而且擒諜重大之法律你是為了要修你這三個產創條例第30條的第一項的第五款的後面的這三點你的增修條文那你是為了就這三個增修條文你去調了剛剛我花了一些時間附送了你你去調閱的這四大類的資料有沒有大炮打小鳥"},{"start":6011.138,"end":6036.815,"text":"有沒有包山包海不符合比例原則我也不曉得你調了這些資料對於你修這個法的直接關係在哪裡我可以直接的告訴黃國昌委員就您修的這產創條例30條如果在經濟委員會排審的時候我們可以好好充分的來討論您說國發基金呢不要來投資於主要生產活動在中國大陸的企業我絕對支持啊"},{"start":6038.156,"end":6044.369,"text":"這個不用調如新不用調聯合再生這麼多資料我就告訴你多數委員會支持國民黨委員支不支持我不知道我們會支持"},{"start":6047.182,"end":6075.903,"text":"你的第三項呢過去三年違反重大的什麼食安勞安這些東西我告訴你我也會支持的但是你的第一點說國發基金用於只要是企業虧損之疏困就不能用這一點要好好討論國發基金本身它的存在不是為了獲益它是為了扶植很多很多的新創很多很多的重要新興產業所以它背負的政策的任務不必然就是一定要盈餘盈餘盈利盈利"},{"start":6076.824,"end":6085.25,"text":"所以說您的修法的這一點不能投資於企業虧損之紓困這一點我覺得容我們來討論像瓊英姐是經濟委員會這麼資深的召委我們都可以好好來討論所以說你調的這些公司跟你要修的這個法你的輔助性的權利你修的這個法我們可以直接在經濟委員會排審了然後你去搞這麼龜縮皮我就從頭到尾指示這個大家心知肚明啦"},{"start":6106.704,"end":6128.377,"text":"你就是對於這些東西 你有你個人的想像 你覺得你要查他 你要查他 那這樣立法委員 我要修政治獻金法我可以把民眾黨所有政治獻金的資料 要求你送到立法院來嗎我為了要修政治獻金法 我也可以把國民黨民進黨所有的"},{"start":6129.454,"end":6158.655,"text":"政治獻金所有的名目我不知道他有沒有違法喔我是為了要修政治獻金法我把全部的都調來看看來看看他有沒有違法或者是來看看有什麼東西線索來提供我修法的參考我們權力沒有這麼大我們權力沒有這麼大然後回到剛剛我要糾正一下昭緯喔對於聯合再生案喔您直接上監察院的網站就看得很清楚"},{"start":6159.841,"end":6184.896,"text":"他确实是做出了纠正案文但是呢他的案件状态案件状态冒号尚未结案他的案件状态尚未结案他的案件状态尚未结案Google一下就能够知道所以劳烦您这个部分请再慎重好吗"},{"start":6186.477,"end":6211.379,"text":"那個前面的說明我想應該都很清楚啦這個當初可能大家把時間序列搞清楚就知道產狀條例的修正案我是先送的送完了以後才提案要成立這個調查委員會這客觀的事實不用不用去爭執第二個剛剛吳委員私謠所講冒號三維結案我會說明一下你可能對於監察院的運作"},{"start":6213.008,"end":6235.558,"text":"可能有一些誤會我沒有誤會喔這是網站上的資料所以嘛網站上為什麼寫三位結案我沒有誤會喔對 我說明一下因為當他們對行政機關提出糾正的時候行政機關必須要針對糾正要改善改善的狀況要函附在還沒有函附以前都沒有結案"},{"start":6237.445,"end":6246.55,"text":"所以我講尚未結案你是被我抓到了我就告訴你他就尚未結案啊那個不是調查還沒有結束調查已經結束了調查已經結束了只是你的認知跟我們的認知不一樣你不能說別人搞不清楚狀況嗎是你才搞不清楚狀況吧剛剛你在講話的時候我都沒有插嘴"},{"start":6259.127,"end":6287.966,"text":"沒有我靜靜的聽你講完那你要我回覆所以我就回我就回覆你三位結案是什麼意思嘛他的監察院的調查調查終結了沒有調查終結啦就是調查終結才會出糾正啊那糾正完以後上面為什麼寫三位結案很簡單嘛因為針對他所糾正的內容行政機關還沒有處理完畢還沒有函附嘛這個是所謂三位糾正內容並不是這件事情監察院的調查還沒有終結"},{"start":6289.629,"end":6291.938,"text":"監察院調查沒有終結怎麼會出糾正文"},{"start":6293.1,"end":6320.275,"text":"好我剛剛其實很尊重各位委員大家發言的空間跟時間都讓大家暢所欲言那剛剛也說明的非常清楚了這個調查委員會是為了要修產狀條例是不是有這樣子的狀況我們輔助性的權利所成立的調查委員會那目前國發會國發基金他們所提供的資料也符合我們調閱"},{"start":6321.676,"end":6331.727,"text":"的範圍那剛剛各位委員在說明的內容沒有關係那個蔡宇委員剛發言你的發言啊我們都有會議紀錄"},{"start":6336.853,"end":6354.483,"text":"是我們上次在調閱範圍的時候其實民進黨的委員針對調閱的範圍上次在開會的時候也都表達過意見了在立法院公報裡面也都清楚的記載了那但是我們做了決議發了函請他們提供資料他們也提供資料了"},{"start":6355.1,"end":6369.892,"text":"那蔡英文委員剛剛又發言反對我相信不僅是全程直播啦在立法院公報都會詳實的把每位委員的意見把它記錄下來好 我們現在是不是有請是不是請國發會的主委 劉主委來報告這個會的委員會要報告什麼"},{"start":6375.086,"end":6387.978,"text":"這是違法的會議要報告什麼?是 那個上次你也表達過這樣的意見是不是顯尊重主席的意識主持你拿這個違法的會議要報告什麼?對啊 這個會議是不是違法恐怕也不是王委員自己決定"},{"start":6389.739,"end":6414.153,"text":"是不是可以尊重主席的意識主持這個會議就違法了要報告什麼這個會議是不是違法恐怕也不是王委員一個人說了算這個事情我們上次都討論過了也做了決議了所以國發基金才會送這些資料過來那今天我們國發會的委員國發基金的同仁都到這邊了那你總是要給人家有說明的機會"},{"start":6417.026,"end":6439.391,"text":"是來請中委員嘉賓那個看起來召委召開這個會議這樣一路下來我的聚焦始終就是說報告內容涉及爐心跟聯合再生這個我們在之前完全沒辦法產生出這兩家公司是"},{"start":6441.228,"end":6460.353,"text":"國發基金不當管理的主要標的我們現在產生不出來這兩點那如果國發會他要就整個基金的管理要做就是通則性的說明還是可以針對蘆星跟聯合再生因為我真的很擔心啊"},{"start":6462.141,"end":6479.817,"text":"剛剛為了聯合再生剛剛我們的資料說是不是在糾正糾正完了之後呢監察院是不是還要行政機關函附如果說今天監察院對於聯合再生有發函糾正那麼也要行政機關函附那今天等於是我們在國發會針對"},{"start":6482.973,"end":6504.803,"text":"監察院的糾正之前我們請國發會就他們國發經驗的管理來跟立法院報告這當然我覺得還是有點風險啦那至於說如果國發會裡面所針對的爐心案因為還有一個案件在審理中我也不清楚會不會講出現在所謂法院審理當中所必要的資訊"},{"start":6506.164,"end":6510.248,"text":"所以我是覺得今天這個標題剛剛有委員認為是違法會議不過我認為限縮在這個標題的內容要請國發會來報告那這裡面針對爐心跟聯合再生我覺得這個標題的內容應該委員會我們並沒有同意當然了 招委可以排議程"},{"start":6529.167,"end":6552.205,"text":"好 招委可以排議程的標題啦但我覺得這標題的標的要報告的標的呢應該委員會要有一個共識到底像我跟蔡委員我好像有點不太一樣他是就資料的部分只能留聯合再生跟盧興我說的不是資料 我說的是我們今天要國發會來報告的標的不能夠"},{"start":6553.405,"end":6573.895,"text":"指定是盧興跟聯合再生因為我不清楚為什麼要他就這兩個案子來報告所以我自己說對主席提出一個質疑就整市報告的主題是否包含是否專指聯合再生跟盧興是不是應就我們本委員會做一個詢問以上"},{"start":6574.741,"end":6594.644,"text":"好 那個回答中委員嘉賓的詢問這一次調查委員會調查的範圍是從2016年以後直接投資的公司沒有包山包海 沒有上百家 沒有上千家就只有是是是 那個就讓我回答問題嘛"},{"start":6597.113,"end":6615.192,"text":"不好意思喔真的你們在講話的時候其實我都沒有插嘴不管我贊成不贊成我也都是很尊重各位委員的發言嘛我讓你把意見表達完了那你說的是對或是不對沒有關係社會大眾大家都可以共同的評價因為立法院公報都還是會做足字稿嘛"},{"start":6615.816,"end":6635.226,"text":"那我只是要回覆的事情是說因為這一次符合調查範圍在2016年以後的公司直接投資的公司是37家我也跟各位委員報告了37家的資訊量非常的大所以我會依序的排我會依序的排主席我反對37家資訊量非常大這些資訊我們不可以去看"},{"start":6643.282,"end":6661.267,"text":"怎麼可以這樣 一續的排他們公司有什麼問題嗎而且你為了修產創條例30條一個條文的第五項你為了修一個條文可以這樣去調三十幾家公司的資料喔這大炮打小鳥嘛你的修法大家可以直接經濟委員會審法案的時候來討論"},{"start":6663.067,"end":6680.452,"text":"你的目的跟手段這實在太過檔了真的太過檔了一個財窗條例30條我們可以好好來就修法的部分來討論嘛對不對經濟委員會的召委要不要排行審查這件事情我百分之百的尊重啦也不是我可以智慧的"},{"start":6681.348,"end":6697.637,"text":"那我們現在成立的這個你如果真的關心你的法案被審查快速審查你應當會去請經濟委員會的委員幫助你排案這應當是如果你真的在乎產創條例30條的修法的話你應當會這樣做我們任何一個自己推出修法的委員我們都會這樣子用我們在乎的法案趕快去請求該委員會來排案"},{"start":6702.399,"end":6715.731,"text":"對不對 審查 應當是這樣可是您好像沒有 您就放著那個條文在那裡沒審沒關係 然後繼續讓你有個理由然後來掉兩家不夠 再掉37家這個目的跟手段是不是過當 社會看得很清楚"},{"start":6721.215,"end":6748.406,"text":"是 社會看得非常的清楚我再說明一次經濟委員會的委員他們要排案法案的審查我尊重經濟委員會的召委當然我有去拜託人家排不排不是我可以自會的但是這個跟我們依照立法院職權刑事法憲判制以及院會以後的決議所成立的調查委員會是兩件不一樣的事情主席我就是經濟委員會的召委"},{"start":6749.838,"end":6754.18,"text":"你沒有跟我拜託啦那我也可以說我也可以排你要的這個產算條例的條文但是呢你不可以去查你這個爐心跟聯合再生之外的公司"},{"start":6762.489,"end":6781.366,"text":"這是我身為經濟委員會我認為對於這樣的民間企業我認為我有這個義務要對這些事情講清楚這樣的公司他們沒有違法為什麼我們立法委員可以去把他們公司他們的營運翻增國發基金投資他們當時的評估的內容我們可以把它拿來看除非你說它有違法"},{"start":6785.106,"end":6813.795,"text":"你有具體有人告發那我們在另外在院會大家再討論再針對哪一家公司某某某公司我們再來調查在另外的調查你怎麼可以這樣包山包海啊你都說我好我後一屆我就要查對一間啊還預告再下一次我還要排哪一間不斷預告那你用105年那也可以用啊從國發會成立之後為什麼要設定105莫名其妙啊"},{"start":6814.953,"end":6836.267,"text":"這個是院會已經通過決議的事項跟各個委員做報告院會沒有講105年後所有的所有投資組合的重要新興事業都是調查事項院會沒有這樣通過請不要亂講來我跟大家說明一下在立法院公報113卷第98期院會紀錄從57頁到58頁院會通過的文字剛剛蔡委員一語說院會沒有這樣通過請容我再說明一次"},{"start":6844.773,"end":6861.834,"text":"登載在立法院公報113卷第98期的院會紀錄第57頁到第58頁院會通過的範圍的內容在立法院公報白紙黑字寫得非常的清楚就是105年以後所直接投資的公司"},{"start":6863.972,"end":6876.361,"text":"這個是院會所通過的事項所以就是拉國民黨來背書啊 可以這樣嗎人家是民間議員 當時民間主委我站在我民間前顧 我有驚愈 他沒有驚愈曹民兄 你覺得這樣不行嗎我有舉手 舉手 舉手義士背書 我來聽了那麼久 我們今天的會議程序就要仔細採寫我告訴你 需要停止討論 不然我聽了這樣"},{"start":6890.33,"end":6909.864,"text":"我是很不客氣的講,我們這裡都是台大法律師,我可以跟你說是主法、玩法、違法,但是他又不犯法,我聽到尾巴就是這樣。所以我對法律師治國我沒有信心啦,那我是指張停止討論,會議的進行就要進行,不然扁扁玩啦,廢話怎麼這樣在開。"},{"start":6914.127,"end":6914.908,"text":"好 謝謝陳昌明委員的建議"},{"start":6929.821,"end":6934.823,"text":"10票就是輸啦 何必這麼獎勵看我們的立體党调查 我不是這樣講好不好 這個原則討論必須開會 好不好好 我聽不完 聽不完"},{"start":6947.769,"end":6962.373,"text":"我們可以去釣戰天蝦嗎?我們可以去釣他們兩間公司的資料在這裡看嗎?你們也能去釣戰天蝦嗎?那是什麼違法的事情?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情"},{"start":6973.576,"end":6987.83,"text":"我們法律的人啊 常常是最不公平的啦利用你們的專業法律知識 但假如蔣東也是你們的蔣西也是你們的 蔣天上蔣地下都是你們的我跟趙薇如律師來競爭 失禮失禮失禮"},{"start":6993.991,"end":7020.503,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員那各位委員我相信程序上面的事項的垂詢跟意見我們開會到現在快一個小時了大家也都充分表達了那我現在有收到一個書面由鍾嘉斌委員 吳思堯委員 蔡議員 王毅川委員所提出來的一個書面的動議那案由是今日報告事項主標題除去如新"},{"start":7021.761,"end":7029.3,"text":"股份有限公司及聯合再生有限公司欸聯合再生應該是股份有限公司不是有限公司所以你要不要改"},{"start":7032.499,"end":7056.876,"text":"不是股份拿掉,是你股份兩個字要加上去吧對,它這裡就寫,你們的標語就這樣寫是聯合再生有限公司等字樣,這樣是不是對它的說明是抵觸立法院職權刑事法的規定好,那針對請問那個提案人的這個提案認為報告事項要除去這些字樣請問在場各位有沒有意見支持啊"},{"start":7061.071,"end":7074.86,"text":"那如果有意見的話,那我們就贊成這個議案的請舉手剛剛已經討論了一個小時了提案委員要不要講一下提案委員要不要講一下"},{"start":7077.193,"end":7098.086,"text":"因為剛剛你講的是權益問題啊我們應該是針對今天的主題你上次的議事錄都已經確認了啊因為剛剛鍾嘉賓委員您的發言就已經把這裡的意見表達得非常清楚嘛那你現在提出程序上的動議,那我就要來處理這個程序上的動議嘛"},{"start":7099.467,"end":7116.111,"text":"那所以說啊 因為剛剛沒有提案在場啊對呀 對於這個程序上面的動議 請問在場的委員有無異議這個不是程序上的動議耶那請問這不是程序上的動議的話這是今天的報告事項那如果這不是程序上的動議 那我就不處理啦"},{"start":7120.302,"end":7149.042,"text":"我們改標題呢對啊所以你今天的案有事今天報告事項要除去這些字樣嘛是那針對這些我剛剛詢問了在場的委員有沒有異議大家有異議嘛那既然有異議那我現在就依照議事規則處理啊對啊我完全按照議事規則在你送書面的動議我也收了我問大家有沒有異議大家有異議那我們就來處理嘛朱熹"},{"start":7151.271,"end":7164.66,"text":"這個調查委員會從設立到現在你們就是用人數 政黨比例的人數設定了一個民進黨走腳走手也是輸啦所以沒關係 主席要依這個會議程序處理不過一開始你們的設定就是民眾黨跟國民黨就是贏所以我會通過這個主題跟上次調閱的這些範圍"},{"start":7181.01,"end":7193.433,"text":"我只是要執行這件事每次就是這樣就是沒有要討論就不要管OK好來謝謝謝謝各位委員那針對鍾嘉斌委員所提議贊成的請舉手好四位委員贊成反對的請舉手五位委員四位贊成五位反對鍾嘉斌委員的提議不通過"},{"start":7209.008,"end":7211.685,"text":"那我們接下來是不是請國發會的主委來報告"},{"start":7213.286,"end":7233.422,"text":"來 有請主委但主席這就涉及了我們的提案就是彰顯我們對於今天這個會議的內容很重要的一個本質上的不同了解 這個都已經會記載在立法院公報上你這樣的 吳東憲不要急著拍手只會表決贏就拍手我覺得這種違法違憲的會議然後要逼公務人員跟著你違法違憲這實在是"},{"start":7239.207,"end":7242.531,"text":"沒有看過這種立法院啦我們不會違法違憲的會議背書啦我們真的不會違法違憲的會議背書啦不會違法違憲的調查來背書啦辛苦了你們國發會同仁要被逼著違法嗎"},{"start":7255.564,"end":7266.291,"text":"要被逼迫回法,我不知道辛苦了沒有意思喔,我是會議主席,你表達完你的意見在立法院公報裡面都會記載請劉主任委員進行報告好,謝謝,來請劉主任委員來,請劉主任委員"},{"start":7286.285,"end":7300.02,"text":"這個我想要抱歉一下,因為我們黨團認為這是一個違法的會議你們黨團在講什麼話?你今天來這邊叫你們黨團講什麼話?我要提醒一下國發會的主委"},{"start":7306.275,"end":7328.922,"text":"是中華民國行政院國家發展委員會的委員不是民主進步黨國家發展委員會的委員這個是第一件事情這個是第一件事情那個蔡議員對不起請你尊重請你尊重我的會議主持現在我正在講話"},{"start":7330.99,"end":7356.327,"text":"我主持我都讓大家好好講話你現在也在兇我我在兇你什麼你現在也在兇我全程全程都在轉播我剛剛我剛剛是請國發會的主委我跟您說您今天我們發開會通知請你來列席說明你也給了書面報告這個書面報告應該是國發會給的吧是的"},{"start":7360.373,"end":7382.643,"text":"那這個國發會給的書面報告我現在給您機會是請您針對你們國發會給的報告來進行說明今天國發會我必須要跟劉主委講再提醒一次您是中華民國行政院國家發展委員會的主委"},{"start":7384.022,"end":7410.166,"text":"不是民進黨黨團的主委所以您剛剛講的那個話我了解啦你可能是一時口誤那也請那個吳宗憲委員是報告主席如果他說口誤我絕對可以接受我也常常口誤但是我們不能接受在民主國家黨國不分的概念放在裡面當年民進黨就是痛恨國民黨的黨國不分那我也非常認同民進黨的這個觀念"},{"start":7410.686,"end":7429.992,"text":"所以我沒有辦法接受有任何黨國不分的說法那如果說他說是口誤我完全接受以上是不是先請那個國發會的主委針對你們今天所提出來的書面報告因為我看你們書面報告"},{"start":7432.424,"end":7451.624,"text":"還把針對國發基金投資這個公司的依據然後以及投資它原有的說明後面的監督管理的作為然後投資機制的改革你們連投資機制的改革都已經寫出來了是不是可以先請主委來報告"},{"start":7453.7,"end":7474.669,"text":"好 我在這邊報告我想請主席也允許我讓這裡可以講真話那個主委是不是可以上來台上這樣子我們立法院轉播系統大家才清楚這樣關心這個會議的同仁才可以清楚的聽到您表達的意見"},{"start":7476.487,"end":7494.035,"text":"我在這裡也請求主席能夠讓我們把國發會跟國發基金內心話也能夠講出來因為您這邊一直要求我們要講真話那我想得到主席的同意我們報告的同時也表達我們對這個事情的看法"},{"start":7497.461,"end":7511.782,"text":"是不是主席可以允許我們我現在我跟主委先說明一下我們目前整個會議的議程就是按照立法院職權行事法立法院的議事規則"},{"start":7513.615,"end":7527.442,"text":"我們就是按照這個程序在進行的之前發開會通知給你們的時候為了擔心說開會的通知太短你如果還記得的話本來應該上禮拜三這個委員會下午就要開會了"},{"start":7528.783,"end":7547.292,"text":"但是後來我們這個管理委員會的議事同仁跟我講說我們因為作業的關係所以到上個禮拜一才發開會通知然後怕到禮拜三給你們時間太短我還特地改期喔改到這個禮拜一的下午"},{"start":7548.226,"end":7565.405,"text":"等於是我要給你們充分的時間我要給你們充分的時間在給你們充分的時間的情況之下然後才今天排這個報告之前也發了會議通知請你們提書面資料你們也把書面資料給提了"},{"start":7566.601,"end":7583.079,"text":"那現在整個會議議程的進行是到要請你針對你們今天所提出來的報告來進行說明這樣子的議事規則我希望主委能夠理解我其實啊"},{"start":7584.774,"end":7602.97,"text":"為了要讓你們有充分的時間可以準備我還特地的把會議的時間本來是上個禮拜三要開然後延到這個禮拜一的下午我相信這中間的過程你們在會議通知上面都可以清楚的反映出來"},{"start":7603.991,"end":7613.498,"text":"那我現在就進入按照會議的議程進入國發會主委您口頭報告的時間那是不是可以請國發會的主委來進行報告"},{"start":7622.984,"end":7639.043,"text":"好 那我就謝謝主席還有各位先進委員的大家好我就針對今天我們國發基金投資爐心及聯合再生決策與監督的作為過程進行報告"},{"start":7641.446,"end":7666.627,"text":"而國發基金投資如新與編合再生的法源依據是來在於產狀條例第29條加速產業創新加值促進經濟轉型及國家發展而設立同時在國發基金在105年的7月修訂了產業創新轉型基金作業要點當時就本人了解是基於很多"},{"start":7668.268,"end":7692.914,"text":"這個認真經營的公司遇到了一定的困難希望國家能夠再提供一個可以紓困跟轉型的一個協助轉型的一個機會而設立這樣的一個轉型基金當時匡列了一千億元辦理產業創新轉型基金那這個基金的目的是投資於有創新轉型需求之企業且不以財務獲利為目的而設立的"},{"start":7695.094,"end":7706.763,"text":"所以這個基金在成立的過程中主要是希望透過與民間的合作協助國內企業合併、收購、分割及其他有助於企業創新轉型之投資計畫那針對盧興公司當時"},{"start":7711.887,"end":7730.939,"text":"盧興公司依據這個條例申請了創新轉型的基金當時盧興公司主張他要併購香港的酒地公司期望能夠成為牛仔褲全球最大的代工廠商並為知名的品牌Levis提供"},{"start":7733.24,"end":7755.376,"text":"提供主要供應商及導入自動化環保製程辦理現金增資130.2億並於106年4月減送向金管會申請生效公開說明書申請國發基金投資14.88億但是在申請的過程中被金管會推薦金管會認為當時的投資價金"},{"start":7758.298,"end":7786.058,"text":"並沒有明確的評估後來由會計事務所提供評估也被推薦因為呢當時只有一個評估方法之後再由當時的會計事務所補辦的這個整個的評估計畫然後呢認定3.8億美金是認為這是合理價金那本會呢基於這個部分得到這個資料以後呢經過今晚會已經同意的內容"},{"start":7787.512,"end":7809.833,"text":"該公司來向本會來申請本會也派請了也委託了會計事務所那雙方所找的會計事務所都是全球四大會計事務所那所以呢我們的會計事務所也要依據當時會計事務所的這個出具的調查報告進行二次評估那這個評估之後呢"},{"start":7811.585,"end":7830,"text":"認定合理以後進到了我們的三段式評估第一個是跨部會的政策評估會這個是由跨部會組成的一個評估這個評估認同它符合國家發展這個政策創新轉型政策之後"},{"start":7830.72,"end":7853.885,"text":"通過以後經過投審評估會議投審評估會議是由外部專家所組成的當時投票是8票對1票8票贊成1票反對所以透過這兩個獨立性的階段之後送進管理委員會在管理委員會是由外部評審顧問加上各部會代表"},{"start":7854.565,"end":7858.129,"text":"所成立的一個委員會這個委員會經過集體討論之後通過此項投資國發基金始於106年6月參與爐心14.88億元的投資在這個過程中整體的"},{"start":7872.731,"end":7893.527,"text":"報告完成之後呢在國發基金就開始進入投抽管理那在這個過程裡面發生了這個爐心併購酒地出現他的質疑那這個質疑呢當時呢整個國發基金就依據金管會當時遵守他的建議是請當時的這個爐心公司必須保留20%"},{"start":7895.408,"end":7912.119,"text":"避免酒地公司沒有辦法達到當時的財務的目標所以他扣留了20%分六期支付那投資之後呢發生了重大事件就是說當時呢整個基金投資因為違反了這個證券交易法有價證券詐毀"},{"start":7916.831,"end":7945.072,"text":"那隱匿申報因為當時呢出現的這個一家子公司呢已經在投資前已經被賣掉了當事人當時的當事人都刻意的隱瞞這個部分因此呢這個部分就並且呢造成了這個隱匿申報以及發行有價證件詐毀以及特別背信罪嫌遭台北地方法院起訴國發基金為了維護權益所以就參與了投保中心受理"},{"start":7946.713,"end":7966.962,"text":"與投保中心共同提出團體訴訟該案正經商業法院審理中國發基金目前還是有在關注日前以後有一個判決當時兩位經理人判決有罪我們也委請律師進行給予意見"},{"start":7967.722,"end":7985.264,"text":"律師所給的意見就是這個判決有助於我們的團體訴訟第二個部分是國發基金如果要獨立進行訴訟的話並不會增加刑責因此我們尊重律師的建議那同時呢整個案子目前我們就等待司法的調查結果"},{"start":7986.585,"end":8000.272,"text":"再來我們針對聯合再生的部分聯合再生當時是因為整個太陽能產業面臨的中國太陽能產業的低價競爭於是整個太陽能產業希望能夠組成一個新的聯盟"},{"start":8002.353,"end":8022.704,"text":"吸力光能源為主導那規劃了將玉晶、深陽等光電合併然後呢更名為聯合再生股份有限公司並向國發基金申請的轉型基金參與投資22億國發基金接受投資之後呢也邀請了相關主管機關進行調查也請了安永"},{"start":8024.826,"end":8043.305,"text":"這個會計事務所協助進行調查三家公司的財務跟評價出具了盡職報告並於這個當時並依據這個結果申請了三段式的調查在第一個階段政策委員會的通過之後投資評估審議委員會當時是以8票對3票通過"},{"start":8047.549,"end":8061.378,"text":"八票對三票通過都超過了三分之二的委員同意所以呢在經到了國關基金的委員會化部會委員會也審核同意之後進行投資那因為當時呢這個投資的過程裡面呢"},{"start":8065.481,"end":8084.9,"text":"這個我們因為不超過最大我們是跟頭所以我們不成為最大股東的原則下我們最終投資參與13.91億那這個過程裡面到了後來呢聯合再生再增資之後呢我們又依據比例參與投資的0.52億就5200萬那"},{"start":8089.324,"end":8105.85,"text":"但是呢,國發基金參與投資之後呢,我們就進行例行性的管理那後來呢,經過黃國昌委員質詢,在立法院質詢,在媒體揭露了張彬這個工業區的案件,這是51號案"},{"start":8107.771,"end":8129.243,"text":"那產生之後呢我們依據委員的建議之後我們就開始進行調查我們第一個是函請該公司說明這個案件的原由同時我們再去函到經濟部我們做雙重的查核確定這個案這個理由到底正確與否我們依據這樣的一個結果進行我們的調查那之後"},{"start":8136.031,"end":8157.839,"text":"黃委員所提的幾個案件我們全部都有去調查包括永良公司在國安部使用到的德國製中國產的德國品牌中國製的逆變器我們都經過了調查然後也因為這樣在董事會提出要求"},{"start":8159.059,"end":8179.826,"text":"修改本身的作業流程能夠改善這個公司治理所犯的錯誤那我們整個過程目前都在每一個過程我們大概只要有目前只要有看到任何的事件發生我們都會找律師來了解我們能做什麼那為什麼要做這件事我必須強調一件事情"},{"start":8181.665,"end":8206.105,"text":"我們只佔聯合站6.09的股份也就是我們無法代表另外那94%的股份我們無法代表另外94%的股份我們也依據公司法跟公司治理我們並不具備實質控制權也不具備從屬關係我們與該公司不具備從屬關係我們唯一依法能做的是在董事會提出我們的主張"},{"start":8206.886,"end":8221.769,"text":"所以我們在董事會多次提出主張要求改善要求說明包括現在51號案目前的行政訴訟的狀態我們都要求說明然後也經過評估那這是我們現在唯一可做的那"},{"start":8222.45,"end":8248.02,"text":"黃委員希望本會一定要去管理那這個會形成股東干政違反公司治理以及公司法實質控制以這個跟從屬關係的影響所以我們除了依照律師的說法我們沒有能力去管理那個公司因為國發基金是一個投資公司不是實質管理也不是金管會我們也不是經濟部我們違法實施"},{"start":8248.76,"end":8270.94,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關所執行的公司治理以及案場的管理但是我們都跟金管會與經濟部都密切的聯繫做雙重的查核我們希望能讓事實有真相為什麼這個事實的真相很重要其實聯合再生有一千多個員工跟家庭"},{"start":8271.661,"end":8297.425,"text":"我們在瞭解這個公司的治理有問題的同時我們必須兼顧到這一千多人的生計因為員工往往是比較無辜的所以我們希望平衡所有的事情然後仔細的調查有問題我們才會去改變那為了基於這兩個案件所產生的問題國發基金就特別做了總共五個步驟的大調整第一個投錢管理的改善"},{"start":8298.306,"end":8312.635,"text":"我們過去對頭錢管理的這個轉型計畫對於組織的調整我們並沒有特別的要求我們現在會新納入新的要求第二個我們對於轉型能力的評估過去我們評估的比較少一點我們現在會強化再來"},{"start":8314.936,"end":8337.896,"text":"當事人經營者的市場口碑調查我們也強化第二個再來產品的趨勢分析我們也去了解那接著我們增加了公司治理貧困門檻如果公司治理不加者我們一律不予投資那我想今天也聽到了黃委員希望我們能夠對於虧損的公司也進行比較大的管控這一點呢"},{"start":8339.117,"end":8363.345,"text":"我們內部會需要一些比較多的時間討論因為原來國大基金也辦了一個救火的業務那這個救火的業務尤其對於新創公司幾乎99%都不會賺錢那我們會重新來檢討那會後我們會去檢討他那投資審議的部分也是一樣我們強化了審議機制我們增加了外部評審委員人數我們大幅的增加人數那另外讓"},{"start":8364.105,"end":8385.942,"text":"更多的人進來以後可以得到更公平的更周延的思慮那未達共識的會議我們過去是一次會議會進行投票我們現在會進行多次會議才進行投票沒有達到共識就不投票所以只要委員有意見我們就會再次召開會議再來我們過去提高我們提高了表決門檻從原來二分之一"},{"start":8388.644,"end":8413.505,"text":"的決定變成三分之二或四分之三依據不同的等級狀況所以最低的部分也要符合三分之二的同意那如果他的條件比較嚴格的部分我們會採用四分之三那在合約的保障我們也要求我們現在在新的合約也會有一個保障的權益我們希望付買回條款第二個我們不再是一次付款我們可改Milestone付款多次付款"},{"start":8414.805,"end":8438.659,"text":"來確保我們的權益不受損再來我們要求公司要承諾協助國發基金取得持股比例的董事席次那投後管理的部分我們依據監察院的糾正我們已經將會跟人事總處申請設立投後管理部門過去國發基金的投後管理是由業務部門來執行的所以"},{"start":8440,"end":8459.935,"text":"坦白講他的頭後管理是兼職在做那他的管理的能力是的確有改善的空間第二個我們設立預警系統我們在整個我們會進行財報的預警跟這個投資這個市場的預警那再來是依據國發基金獲利的情形優化管理分類我們過去是以純財務來看"},{"start":8461.536,"end":8474.468,"text":"但是事實上投資是看投資獲利來看所以我們會以股價上市公司會以股價來看因為股價代表了未來性那舉個例子藥華藥我們是一個虧損的公司但是國家基金賺了45倍賺了45倍"},{"start":8477.19,"end":8492.788,"text":"那我們依據過去用財報來看就把這個賺45倍的公司列為高風險的這個追蹤戶這個是不正確的做法因為代表我們投資還是看未來性我們以當才講的KK Day我們也跟各位報告KK Day我們賺了58%"},{"start":8495.015,"end":8511.416,"text":"他還沒賺錢但是他已經700多人的公司是國內少見的獨角獸新創獨角獸在國內裡面KK Day已經是獨大的獨大的一個旅遊公司新型的旅遊公司所以我們也會支持這樣的公司但是就財務來講的確新創企業的確還沒賺錢"},{"start":8514.139,"end":8531.632,"text":"但是就投資而言以他最近募資的金額來看我們賺了58%所以我們也因為這樣進行改變我們把我們的管理報表進行優化然後我們定期舉行投後管理委員會我們請外部的顧問給我們對產業的趨勢跟這個市場的變動給予我們建議另外我們爭取投後成立"},{"start":8537.677,"end":8551.596,"text":"頭後管理部門我們最近會向主總提出申請那另外在退場機制部分我們現在也在修進我們希望修改我們的退場機制過去的退場機制的確造成很多的困境"},{"start":8553.038,"end":8582.231,"text":"我們的確需要去修改然後呢這過去也會有很多擔心擔心影響股價擔心影響很多人民的生活所以他的顧忌比較多但是我們現在是依照機制我們五年到了我們就希望能夠達到扶植的目的之後我們就會考慮退場那對於公司治理不佳者優先退場所以我們現在也正進行某家公聯合再生的退場機制那這個是我們在目前整個投資機制的改善"},{"start":8582.811,"end":8611.546,"text":"的做法那我在這裡呢這個整個就是我們針對這兩個案子跟各位做報告那這個爐心我們在等待那這個靈兒再生我們依據黃委員有三個案子包括包括一個是我們投資之前新日光的投資新日泰新日泰投資到洗衣洗衣到台灣綠能我們也去調查了這個案子那這個案子是在我們投資之前的事情新日光時代的事情但是我們也進行了調查那"},{"start":8612.748,"end":8637.37,"text":"我們跟經濟部也密切的合作我們跟經濟部也取得了整個整個股權架構跟投資的狀態那我們大概也對整個案子也有所了解那所以呢這個委員的報告委員的要求我們每個案子目前都是有找律師來做那我們針對所有的投後我們現在進行了以上的管理這個我想跟委員報告我們現在的執行的狀態謝謝委員的聆聽"},{"start":8639.392,"end":8662.435,"text":"好,那個謝謝主委,是不是就請主委先就座那個剛剛主委報告的內容你應該很清楚就是我給您非常充足的時間讓你做完整的說明我也沒有限制你任何"},{"start":8663.795,"end":8689.249,"text":"發言的時間就讓你好好的做說明因為我們委員會在進行的時候除了請你們提供資料調閱請你們提供書面報告之外那我們總是希望說讓行政機關的官員大家有機會能夠針對你們所提出的書面報告針對你們所提出的書面報告來提出你們的觀點"},{"start":8691.47,"end":8719.88,"text":"這樣子的話我們在整個進行的過程當中程序才會比較完備這個是第一點那第二個事情是說剛剛主委在報告的時間當中因為有點名我所以我必須要說明一下我從頭到尾就知道國發基金他就是最大的股東他在裡面也只有一席的董事不管是哪家公司有董事沒有董事"},{"start":8721.212,"end":8733.339,"text":"其實一看就知道你持股百分之多少你有懂事國發基金對於公司的管理本來就是透過懂事來參與公司的治理"},{"start":8735.075,"end":8760.725,"text":"這個是天經地義的事情我向來的要求也就是國發基金的董事必須要善盡董事的職責我相信在公司法下面在政交法下面一個董事他應該要履行什麼樣子的責任這件事情主委應該也非常的清楚那第三個事情是在剛您的報告當中你也非常坦率的"},{"start":8761.621,"end":8789.134,"text":"就承認了這兩家公司治理的確有問題這兩家公司治理的確有問題我們從這個有問題的公司治理以及國發會在管理的過程當中過去這幾年所累積的經驗你們也發現了就真的有問題這是因為有問題所以您今天所提出來的書面報告才會有所謂投資機制的改革嗎"},{"start":8790.564,"end":8804.31,"text":"這些投資機制的改革每一點這都還不是本委員會任何委員所提供的具體的要求或建議完全完全完全是國發會"},{"start":8806.877,"end":8828.815,"text":"從過去這些失敗的例子當中所得到的教訓才會去精進整個投資的決策跟投資以後管理的那顯然就是從過去發生了嚴重的問題那現在知道要改革所以才會提出這些改革的方案出來嘛"},{"start":8830.987,"end":8845.257,"text":"那這個就是我們國會在進行監督的時候所謂向前邁進是什麼所謂向前邁進就是你要怎麼精進整個國發基金的管理針對這件事情提出你們的改革措施"},{"start":8846.584,"end":8864.622,"text":"因為在比較早期的時候,有立法委員提案是要用法律,國發基金的管理要用法律來規範不是用行政規則來加以規範在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":8867.285,"end":8879.748,"text":"目前我們還沒有到用法律規範的層次那行政機關按照立法院監督的內容發生了錯誤那在發生錯誤的情況之下本來本來"},{"start":8882.989,"end":8893.403,"text":"國發會以及國發基金管理委員會來進行管理來進行改革這件事情本來就是大家共同的期待那針對剛剛主委的說明我先簡單講然後我們現在會議"},{"start":8900.913,"end":8918.97,"text":"繼續的進行那現在呢就本次會議的主題那我們的主委已經報告完了那委員如果有垂詢的話那可以做發言的登記那我們"},{"start":8921.512,"end":8945.54,"text":"主席我們的開會中心沒有寫並備質詢報告完全結束沒有並備質詢提醒一下主席沒有關係啦請尊重請尊重主席會議上面的進行我們到目前為止全部都是按照立法院職權行事法跟我們的"},{"start":8946.3,"end":8973.921,"text":"有關於運作的要點在家裡進行的那各位委員如果有臨時提案的話是不是拜託各位委員也在4點10分以前來提出那我們是尋答的情況再來進行處理那我們現在是不是先請登記第一位發言的委員徐委員來發言都可以看你要上來還是要坐在這邊我都尊重"},{"start":8978.038,"end":8979.458,"text":"你的開會通知沒有寫並備諮詢"},{"start":8993.237,"end":9016.417,"text":"我先跟中嘉賓委員清楚的說明一下我們目前在整個運作上面都是按照運作要點跟立法院職權行事法在進行的現在委員針對國發會所提出來的報告他們有問題要提問這件事情我必須要尊重每一個委員的權限那你反對他"},{"start":9018.035,"end":9035.407,"text":"跟行政官員提問啊那個我先跟中委員講現在是我在主持會議所以官員要不要備詢這件事情恐怕不是由您來加以決定的"},{"start":9041.195,"end":9057.501,"text":"那我們現在是不是先請第一位登記發言委員的委員你沒有寫並備質詢我們不會登記發言啦我們是要處理事項你沒有寫並備質詢每個委員會都去委員會如果寫並備質詢我們就會登記發言要質詢來列席的官員你會議通知沒有寫並備質詢我們當然不會登記發言啦上面有沒有我們登記發言沒有並備質詢登記發言要登記誰誰啊"},{"start":9070.097,"end":9094.839,"text":"主席 意識規則再看一下意識慣例沒有登記發言沒有並備質詢就沒有登記發言今天只有報告四項報告完了沒有並備質詢以後發開會通知請注意立法院的議事常規你沒有寫並備質詢我們來參加的委員不會有去登記發言質詢的所以你們放那個表啊"},{"start":9096.315,"end":9117.142,"text":"對行政官員來講那是我們內部的事情至於你要臨時提案那我們委員會要內部討論那是內部討論的事情官員已經報告完畢那也沒有要他們備詢我們委員也不曉得他要備詢也沒有要來登記發言如果這時候允許來質詢就侵犯了其他修道開會通知的委員的權利"},{"start":9118.649,"end":9138.894,"text":"那個相關有關於登記可以提問的順序在一點鐘的時候都已經放在外面的台子上面相關的登記全部都放在這外面我還是請鐘嘉賓委員你一開始在程序上面發言我都很尊重你們發言的權利跟機會"},{"start":9140.222,"end":9154.505,"text":"那現在已經到了下午4點02分了前面也有委員他們登記要發言那你總不可能你自己一直站著麥克風只有你一個人發言其他按照規矩登記的委員通通都不能發言吧"},{"start":9155.475,"end":9182.092,"text":"委員可以登記發言啊 可以證明主席同意登記發言啊 但不是質詢喔發言會發言喔 不是質詢喔 我們沒有並被質詢喔請總委員注意 現在會議的主席是我我收到你的提醒了 非常感謝你的提醒現在是不是我們請登記第一位發言的委員 許新穎委員主席 全議員您的官員要不要離席了"},{"start":9183.192,"end":9205.653,"text":"對不起喔,現在會議的主席是我,我還沒有請官員退席現在不是,您不是會議的主席喔請中委員嘉賓,你如果有問題要問,現在可以去登記那你如果因為今天的會議議程沒有寫並備諮詢我們不知道可以質詢官員請了解會議的程序我再說一次喔,從一點的時候登記發言的條件都是在外面"},{"start":9208.175,"end":9227.084,"text":"你的會議通知沒有寫 就是沒有並備咨詢好 非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員現在我們是不是請登記第一位發言的徐欣穎委員好 謝謝 謝謝主席本席想請這個劉主委想請 就叫劉主委 可以嗎來是不是有請劉主委來 有請劉主委你在這邊做這樣指導"},{"start":9237.266,"end":9261.017,"text":"沒有關係啊來請劉主委請劉主委那個是不是可以請在場的委員尊重徐欣穎委員的權利是不是尊重徐欣穎委員的權利人家已經登記發言在這邊"},{"start":9262.796,"end":9284.771,"text":"然後在這邊這樣子繼續干擾其他委員在會議的進行這樣不好了好那我們那個現在那個發言登記截止我們從一開始一點放到現在夠了那在場的委員有沒有要再登記的都沒有嗎好那我們發言登記就截止了現在有請徐欣穎委員"},{"start":9286.442,"end":9304.05,"text":"好謝謝主席那劉主委本席剛剛聽了您的報告想首先請教您您有特別講到如昕那他目前他目前盈虧如何你報告裡面沒有寫這可以講吧目前他屬於虧損狀態但是虧損多少虧損多少目前是虧損12億12.38嗎"},{"start":9313.183,"end":9314.807,"text":"對 12.38億所以我們投14.88億目前已經虧損12.38億整個虧了83.2%"},{"start":9324.563,"end":9345.431,"text":"那剛剛但是委員你一定要注意到我們每一年還是有貢獻280億的獲利你整個國發基金嘛我現在是針對我現在一直覺得我們一直被同仁其實都沒有被就是我們投資的獲利或是績效沒有被公佈但是我跟委員報告一件事你剛剛說每年貢獻多少280億"},{"start":9347.112,"end":9350.475,"text":"我們大概280億左右每年賺280億我很快跟委員報告一下我上來之後我針對這個爐心的狀況我做了一個裁試因為這個狀況我們現在只有兩個可能一個就是四股當時四股的價錢大概在兩塊左右兩塊多一點沒關係"},{"start":9365.345,"end":9394.287,"text":"沒關係那我們當時呢就找了那個我有問你的你再回答我們問一下這個到底有沒有機會在股價往上走如果有機會走的話可以我們試股的話就會造成更大的損失所以我們決定等待那目前已經回到3塊多最多有到過4塊所以我們呢在期待它因為它現在每個月都有十幾億的營業額所以代表它的營收還是存在那現在整個全掌握在"},{"start":9394.827,"end":9414.417,"text":"台灣人手上所以它還是一個值得所以我們正在等待這樣的一個公司的改變對啊 因為不知道等待多久但是本席還是要在這邊因為您剛剛有講每年我們國發基金還是賺了280億所以我在這裡肯定我們國發基金的我們的所有的同仁就是這個"},{"start":9419.062,"end":9432.68,"text":"國發會的同仁還有這個基金會的同仁但是因為這個如心也是今天您報告的兩家公司其中一家那您剛剛也有提到說當初你特別有報告當初這個"},{"start":9435.714,"end":9453.745,"text":"如心我們在決策要不要投資之前那這個投票最後在這個2017 106年這個投票的時候您還剛報告的時候特別講8比1那本席好像了解你們整個委員"},{"start":9455.114,"end":9461.224,"text":"大概多少人整個那一天該出席就是整個的這個決策的委員應該要有11位11嗎15吧"},{"start":9468.359,"end":9487.055,"text":"所有委員跟委員報告我們委員會有一個pool然後去抽籤順序出來然後必須要在那個pool裡面過半的這個出席才能夠去對過半的出席但是我的意思是說你發通知的委員應該有15位吧發通知的委員是11位只有11位11位真的嗎你們確定"},{"start":9493.342,"end":9507.435,"text":"你們發通知只有11位跟委員報告一下本席手上的資料你出席人員你列了15位跟委員報告一下我們這個委員會的召開方式是這樣的就是我們會有兩組委員"},{"start":9508.536,"end":9513.361,"text":"一組是屬於企業經營組你們的會議紀錄你們自己針對那一次投資評估審議會的會議紀錄你們出席人員就列了15位然後有6位請假難道不是嗎怎麼現在變11位我們開會的條件是每一組委員"},{"start":9530.459,"end":9549.267,"text":"對開會條件他是一定可以成立的就是說人數達到一定可以成立我現在指的是你們預計出席的人啊你發通知的在我們手上的資料是有15位啊我們開會通知都會發給所有的委員因為他們對我問的就是所有委員嘛是不是15位呢"},{"start":9549.887,"end":9563.97,"text":"但是我們好了沒關係你回答嘛是不是15位15到17位都會發然後能夠出席的就是說要達到會議的話要三分之二嘛目前是三分之二嗎"},{"start":9566.878,"end":9587.007,"text":"各辦好各辦好各辦過半出席然後出席的必須要三分之二過半出席才能開會然後要三分之二才能夠通過對所以我們發現說你這麼多的委員那但是出席的只有九位只有九位再來再來就是這你看喔"},{"start":9588.607,"end":9610.516,"text":"這麼多年下來 如新這家公司它的整個的虧損這麼的嚴重八成整個虧損當然我們的主委你認為說我們期待它起來但是我們現在要看的就是說在當初決策的時候就我們所知你們整個的把關"},{"start":9611.736,"end":9627.915,"text":"在報告中你說是很審慎嚴謹但是我們看起來是不審慎嚴謹的為什麼呢因為這個如心投資案我們國發基金它是要用於產業創新高科技發展但我們看到這個如心它是傳產"},{"start":9629.156,"end":9652.51,"text":"也不是產業創新也不是高科技發展這第一點第二點就我們所知當初一些外部的專家明確的指出他沒有專利權而且這個專家學者也都反對可是你們還是讓他投票通過了這個為什麼為什麼會有這種情況就我了解為什麼不採納專家審查的意見"},{"start":9658.959,"end":9687.735,"text":"因為這個是一個整個機制過去都是用共識決共識決的就是每個人都有不同的意見充分討論之後進行投票以投票的結果為準就像剛才我們在委員會大家有不同的意見這邊也是採取投票然後以投票為準5比4剛才我在現場所以這個會不會很可怕就說你除了你除了人來投票之外沒有一些指標一定要通過的嗎包括我們的國發基金它只能用在某些"},{"start":9688.735,"end":9715.802,"text":"符合國發基金投資的標的這個廠商那你傳統產業你不是產業創新也不是高科技發展還有你的淨值調查很多的疏漏那這些疏漏產生了我們只要大家出席的人同一半以上然後又投票多數通過我們就讓他通過這樣我們民眾的納稅錢不是很沒有很沒有保障嗎"},{"start":9716.533,"end":9734.203,"text":"我們找的是從財務跟產業雙方面去熟悉這方面的人來進行投票的跟評估的那您剛剛講的但是我們擔心弊端我想因為我們是替民眾把關當然你找的專家或學者什麼"},{"start":9735.023,"end":9756.1,"text":"那今天我們總是還是要防弊嘛對不對我們要防弊的情況下他雖然掛著專家學者可是睜眼說瞎話或者是這個明明看到整個的評估報告不管這家公司的財務是有問題還是投資標的物不符我們國發基金該投資的那你都可以投贊成票這個是有問題的吧"},{"start":9760.723,"end":9775.072,"text":"跟委員報告就是國發基金他的評估機制就是擔心行政人員譬如說他看到一個特定的審查委員他的意見是負面的然後就片面把他否定掉或者決定要投所以他這些"},{"start":9776.053,"end":9804.619,"text":"外部委員的意見通通會如實的呈現給這個投資評估審議委員這些專家從財務面產業面各個方面來看那委員都看到了這一些反對的意見贊成的意見財務的法務的會計的滴滴的這個評估調查然後他去做出他的這個投票的行為然後是秘密投票然後對但是你沒有回答我的問題我們在防弊的時候有些人為的"},{"start":9806.28,"end":9831.282,"text":"他可能只是就是說各種的調查結果那都是不符合的可是他還是要投投這個贊成票我們就要防弊啊每一個委員只有一票啊對啊所以那你們這個委員怎麼選出來的你在專家學者或在各個領域你們這是誰決定的"},{"start":9833.186,"end":9854.457,"text":"我們這個是由我們國際基金會去洽詢這個市場比較具知名的人物然後變成一個像資料庫資料庫怎麼挑隨機挑出來之後呢隨機挑的對再到像最近的話是再到我這邊我在隨機從裡面去勾選然後呢"},{"start":9855.417,"end":9875.145,"text":"我們是有一點懷疑啦大概我們也擔心有些專家學者他不想躺昏睡他是不是覺得好像這個案子有一點壓力好像要過那有些專家學者覺得我不能違背我的良心我就不出席了那有些人呢可能是這個跟"},{"start":9876.943,"end":9901.659,"text":"跟這個主政的或者是想要過的假設是站在一起的那他當然出席這個弊端要怎麼防範這個您提的這個其實在很多年前這個就已經做了就是說他是早年早年是要簽名的所以委員覺得有壓力後來做了修正之後是委員"},{"start":9903.48,"end":9926.146,"text":"簽完名之後把他的名字那個地方是折起來封起來也就是說我們可以看到這個委員同意不同意跟他的意見但是看不到這是誰的意見然後他當場就封起來就密封起來等到這個案子出現了有任何的問題之後才去把它打開來然後看一下這個每個委員的意見"},{"start":9926.866,"end":9937.984,"text":"那現在呢獨興的案子會看到就是因為呢後面有意見以後大家把它打開來看裡面每一個人的意見好OK那現在我最後再問一個問題就是說"},{"start":9940.393,"end":9963.15,"text":"如新他應該是我們可不可以設定一些標準就像我們人的評選也一樣他要過關最後他才可以最後參加最後的比如說口試或者是什麼那如新這個公司如果他在各項的指標他都沒有符合我們的規定那就應該就打掉他就應該進步來給我們來做評選嘛"},{"start":9966.252,"end":9991.951,"text":"我現在不是針對如新我是以如新為案例未來我們不希望這個就有一些公司他不管他的這個發展性創新他就不符合了還有我們也看到其實在投資前我們就知道他們這家公司的資金各方面是很有問題的所以最後他以小併大這個海外併購那也產生現在產生像現在"},{"start":9994.013,"end":10010.093,"text":"這種虧損的情形都可能很有關所以是不是你們的這個標準可以在我們要評估前你鎖定了什麼樣的廠商那你要先做一些他的標準上的一個篩選嗎"},{"start":10012.695,"end":10033.786,"text":"現在有沒有這個機制這個是這樣子我們可以再來檢討一下但是我要跟委員報告一下我們在外面有很多的新創他在找尋資金的時候其實他面對的很多的Venture Capital他本身會有一些"},{"start":10034.867,"end":10050.645,"text":"會一些比較嚴苛的投資標的機制那當時呢很多的其實包括至少他要符合都是有希望我們能夠盡量去扶持這些新創公司的時候我們的機制其實是比較相較外面寬鬆的"},{"start":10053.007,"end":10067.433,"text":"我懂你要表達但是你沒有抓到我的point但是你講的是說比較屬於大型的例如說一家公司我要的是電子電機的那你念土木的我就不符合那所以除非你"},{"start":10068.073,"end":10084.618,"text":"電土木可是你有電子電機相關總之你要符合那個標的那它已經不是產業創新它是傳產然後它也不是科技那你都把它納進來那就不符合我們這個國發基金的投資"},{"start":10086.499,"end":10109.421,"text":"像這種我的意思就是說我想我也不要浪費大家時間所以我們希望你們要有一些明確的然後在他初步有一些包括這裡面應該也有我們應該長期以來也有一些就在譬如像淨值調查裡面不管他的這個財務他的各方面資金的情況"},{"start":10110.382,"end":10116.079,"text":"那只要它不符合標準的你應該就要把它淘汰掉不能再放進來"},{"start":10117.328,"end":10140.901,"text":"對 我們現在就增加了您講的我們要求他提供轉型計畫那尤其是組織的轉型我們要求的很多因為要不然的話過去來講很多來申請的時候他的組織並沒有改變那第二個部分我們也要求也去檢查他的能力不是說他想要轉他也要能力那如果能力不足我們現在也聘了專家會來做事前的檢查"},{"start":10141.521,"end":10167.506,"text":"他想要轉的方向到底他有沒有能力這些都是我們就是委員剛才提的幾個那我們前面會去做比較嚴格的要求所以我們真的希望人民的納稅錢不要丟到海裡好 謝謝好 謝謝許新穎委員那因為我們那個臨時提案的時間已經過了那我們就先處理臨時提案是不是可以請議事委員先宣讀提案"},{"start":10172.016,"end":10172.037,"text":"一樣"},{"start":10174.352,"end":10202.446,"text":"民主提案第一案有鉴于行政院国家发展基金不过三位外部学者专家持反对意见执意投资如新股份有限公司导致纳税人惨赔原请行政院国家发展基金发函询问2017年6月5日行政院国家发展基金产业创新转型基金第一次投资评估审议会即2017年6月9日行政院国家发展基金管理会所出席之委员为何不顾三位外部学者专家反对仍决意图"},{"start":10203.186,"end":10230.442,"text":"仍決意投資如新,並一週內將匯入內容提供本委員會。提案人徐欣盈、陳超明、吳宗憲、楊瓊玉、林思宇、游浩宣導完畢。好,那個針對臨時提案的第一案請問委員有沒有要說明?沒有OK,那那個國發會有沒有要說明?沒有,所以是可以遵照辦理嗎?是不是?可以好,謝謝,來第二案"},{"start":10231.923,"end":10251.48,"text":"第二案有鉴于行政院国家发展基金不顾三位外部学者专家持反对意见执意投资联合再生民营股份有限公司不仅导致纳税人亏损更是弊案连连援请行政院国家发展基金发案询问2017年12月31日行政院国家发展基金产业创新转型基金"},{"start":10252.984,"end":10274.154,"text":"第四次投資評估審議會即2017年12月27日行政院國家發展基金管理會所出席之委員為了不顧三位外部學者專家反對仍決意投資聯合再生並一週內將回覆內容提供本委員會提案人徐信 陳昌明 吳宗憲 楊瓊英林思明 游皓 宣傳筆來 請問提案委員有沒有要說明"},{"start":10276.209,"end":10296.658,"text":"請問國發會有沒有意見這沒有意見但是我針對臨時提案第一點可能要更正一下因為他不是三位委員是一位委員林和寨是三位委員反對盧鑫是一位委員反對所以提案一的不顧三位委員可能要改成一位委員"},{"start":10297.935,"end":10321.55,"text":"那個我這樣講好了就是說針對那個提案的內容那個委員到底是贊成還是反對其實你們的文件都已經送來了嘛那為什麼立法院要查這些文件是因為之前我們在進行監督的時候我們針對那些委員他們為什麼贊成根本沒有人知道"},{"start":10322.79,"end":10345.677,"text":"那你們資料送來了以後我們才有機會去看嘛那看完了資料以後才發現說原來之前送外部的學者專家評估的時候評估回來的報告其實都很負面那可能從主委的立場來講因為那些報告我也可以跟主委說明我全部都看完了"},{"start":10346.618,"end":10362.549,"text":"我全部都看完了您說盧新只有一個反對其他兩個沒反對但是您可能在看那個報告的時候人家是寫的比較客氣因為我看完了整個報告以後我認為他的意見是反對的"},{"start":10363.61,"end":10387.123,"text":"那當然到底他的意見是贊成還是反對的這件事情我把整份報告看完了以後我認為提案委員他的說明並沒有不對那如果主委認為說那個外省的專家意見其實不是反對是贊成的話其實你們也可以就這樣含糊譬如說因為你之前已經沒意見了嘛"},{"start":10388.584,"end":10409.944,"text":"沒有意見對那你如果發給他他說沒有其實我的意見是反對那他就可以寫他的理由那或者是說其實我的意見是贊成沒有反對所以就沒有所謂不顧的問題這樣子的話就可以把誤會給李一清嘛主委您懂我的意思嗎懂我們就針對這兩案都提"},{"start":10410.865,"end":10417.259,"text":"所以第二案臨時提案你也沒有意見嗎?沒有意見那我徵詢提案委員給他們兩週的時間好嗎?"},{"start":10426.303,"end":10445.863,"text":"提案委員是不是同意給他們兩個禮拜都可以嘛第一案跟第二案我們就按照就是剛剛主委的要求提案委員同意了我們就修改文字後通過好那現在進行第三案"},{"start":10448.001,"end":10462.657,"text":"第三 聯合再生能源股份有限公司得標經濟部工業局張斌工業區太陽光電出租案違約出售套利2.63億事後經濟部要求聯合再生買回並主導經營權聯合再生淨於甲乙種"},{"start":10463.638,"end":10489.177,"text":"刑事特別股欺騙經濟部創造有60%股權的假象但實際只有約10%出資額及表決權比例有建議2022年9月14日聯合再生董事會討論上開欺騙方案時行政院國家發展基金及所派任之公股代表載以知情實際僅有10%出資額及表決權比例根本不符合經濟部之要求不僅協助遮掩"},{"start":10489.657,"end":10515.433,"text":"更於2022年11月欺騙國會 宣稱取得60%股權原請行政院國家發展基金 徹查並追究相關人員責任並於週內將調查結果提供本委員會提案人 徐信 吳宗憲 陳昌明 楊瓊英 林思敏 游皓 宣傳筆請問提案委員有沒有要說明沒有 那請國發會你們有沒有意見我們請同仁可以 請說明"},{"start":10517.878,"end":10544.843,"text":"跟那個主席還有各位委員報告一下當時聯合再生他這個使公司的股權轉售之後那我們其實是有去問這個經濟部主管機關那他給我們的回覆其實當時的我們在這個院裡面其實我們是如實的表達只是後來委員這邊有在那個提出說他這個特別股的方式是只有"},{"start":10545.603,"end":10568.668,"text":"那個股權沒有表決權所以我想跟委員還有跟提案主席跟提案委員這邊就是說國華基金的這個統領其實並沒有說刻意要欺瞞這個大院以上報告喂那個齁我先跟你們說明一下齁可能你們問題的意思會比較清楚一點"},{"start":10570.386,"end":10591.242,"text":"國發會的同仁你們現在帶的電腦裡面應該有你們在2022年11月提給立法院的書面報告吧有嗎?因為其實我都有整理啦你們如果需要的話我現在馬上秀PPT給你們看那個同仁是不是把那個PPT插到電腦上這些資料我全部都花時間消化完了"},{"start":10605.504,"end":10628.641,"text":"我現在沒有在尋答,我是在協助國發基金的同仁知道這個提案在說什麼你們要看嗎?還是你們自己手上有資料?沒關係,我們回去查我真的這邊都有資料你們要看嗎?所以第三案你們也沒意見了?"},{"start":10630.543,"end":10651.611,"text":"我想這個意見在這一邊確實憑良心講因為這個案子它有它的複雜度然後牽扯到其他沒有啦 因為我跟國發基金的同仁講一下就是說當資料回來以後當我們去看了這個資料以後實際上面掌握的狀況就很清楚我為什麼說實際上面掌握的狀況就很清楚"},{"start":10653.011,"end":10677.28,"text":"當初他們在騙社會說他們有60%的股份的時候但是你們回去看一下那一次董事會提給國發基金簽核表示意見的時候在那一次的簽核意見單上面很清楚的寫喔他其實實質的股權其實只有百分之十不是百分之六十白紙黑字"},{"start":10678.325,"end":10705.574,"text":"你們國發會的同仁甚至在那個PPT上面寫說這個跟經濟部的要求不符用手寫的喔用手寫的那一看就知道是你們國發基金的同仁就用手寫的說跟經濟部的要求不符那時候我下去調閱的時候我看到這一張我臉都傻了那證明你們早就知道那是10%不是60%但是在你們知道以後"},{"start":10706.823,"end":10719.235,"text":"那個時間序我全部都整理好了在你們知道以後你們送給立法院的報告白紙黑紙又寫60%所以我就覺得很奇怪你們明明就知道了你們為什麼送給立法院的報告"},{"start":10720.581,"end":10738.694,"text":"還是完全做跟事實不符的描述所以我相信提案委員大概也是因為這樣所以才會有相同的困惑請國發基金的同仁跟國發會的同仁理解一件事情我們在進行調查委員會的時候不管執政黨的立委"},{"start":10739.474,"end":10758.905,"text":"他們要進行什麼樣子的批評或者是無敵放矢但是我們在進行的過程當中我們是很嚴謹的依照你們提供的資料看到的問題讓你們機會表達意見而不是在沒有讓你們表達意見機會的情況之下我就要做成調查報告因為這個調查委員會"},{"start":10761.767,"end":10788.797,"text":"我們一定會做成調查報告的我們一定會做成調查報告而那個調查報告一定會很清楚的去反映在你們移送給本委員會的所有的資料當中在2022年的幾月幾號第幾次開董事會你們已經知道那其實是10%的股權不是60%的股權因為現在資料都已經拿來了以後有白紙黑字的證據大家都不要再爭辯了"},{"start":10790.29,"end":10811.438,"text":"但是大家現在困惑的事情你們早就知道只有10%但是送到立法院的報告還是寫60%這是怎麼回事我相信提案三是在處理這個層次的問題啦好我們把它釐清之後啊能不能還是給我們兩週的時間那我要尊重提案委員啦那個提案委員給他兩週的時間可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":10816.274,"end":10828.512,"text":"我們就善意的 我們都好 那個也謝謝提案委員的善意那我們就依照國發會的要求那個把它文字把它改成兩週後通過好 那第三案就通過 第四案"},{"start":10830.1,"end":10858.163,"text":"第四案 知恩王立川委員於立席時對國發會主委稱報告就是違法國發委員會主委居然於口頭報告時附和稱我想要報道抱歉一下我們黨傳認為是違法的會議顯然忘記自己擔任國發會主委的身份以違反行政中立原則並藐視本調查委員會原提案請主席要求國發會主委道歉提案人吳宗憲 劉浩 徐欣盈 陳超明 楊瓊英 宣傳筆"},{"start":10860.235,"end":10881.517,"text":"請問提案委員有沒有要說明那我在這邊就直接說明那我主要提這個是因為剛剛發生的幾個狀況第一個就是在民進黨委員離席的時候那他直接請官員不要回答那他說如果主委報告的話就是違法那我認為立法委員的職責是在於監督"},{"start":10882.378,"end":10907.921,"text":"政府而不是護航官員但是主委後來的回答是說我想要抱歉一下我們黨團認為是違法的會議既然是國家的官員那就不應該黨國不分當年我也陪著民進黨一起對抗議國民黨的黨國不分我也陪著民進黨過現在我不能容認說"},{"start":10909.605,"end":10916.986,"text":"你現在自己執政的你反而就是在演黨國不分的這種戲那這個是這個是不被接受的那我們這個"},{"start":10919.004,"end":10939.055,"text":"人民對於國家我們還是有一定的要求我們認為不能以黨領政這是不對的所以我認為主委講了這句話他應該要出來做個道歉因為國發會並不是民進黨的投顧公司那國發會主委也不是"},{"start":10939.955,"end":10966.196,"text":"民進黨的頭顧老師所以不應該這麼做那後來甚至還有我們剛剛在抗議的時候那又民進黨的立法委員跑進來說我們怎麼可以罵官員那其實民進黨平常怎麼罵人我想大家都有目共睹啦甚至我上個禮拜還被謀因為民進黨委員罵髒話我想那個才叫罵人那我們對於一個說錯話而且是在國會是非常嚴重的一件事情尤其在民主的國家"},{"start":10966.917,"end":10995.598,"text":"你把黨國不分以我們的黨團認為這個怎麼樣那這是由一個內閣的官員口中所說出來尤其是在國會裡面我認為這個是極度的不妥啦那我剛剛也有說得很清楚的每個人都有可能會口誤我自己講話有時候也會口誤那所以我們希望說由國發會主委自己來說明那如果是有需要道歉的話也要麻煩主委能夠在這邊跟大家說一句道歉的話"},{"start":10997.706,"end":11017.071,"text":"好 謝謝提案委員的說明那現在那個主委有沒有要做一個補充的說明或回覆我做個說明喔其實我來這裡我不求什麼我犧牲了我很多包括我身體的病痛來到這裡我只想為國家做一點事我並不想捲入任何政黨的鬥爭"},{"start":11018.427,"end":11024.016,"text":"我不想捲入那是為什麼我今天坐在這裡但是我今天黨團認為這是違法非議那個標誌也在那裡我闡述他認為這是違法非議"},{"start":11030.359,"end":11058.414,"text":"我不認為我有什麼樣的錯那如果今天大家要認為我應該捲入這個政治的風暴裡面來那我個人願意承擔這個後果因為我今天因為我在執政黨的團隊裡面我願意為這件事負責我也跟中線委員抱歉我願意負責所以我很抱歉我只能這樣子那至於貴黨團要怎麼做呢我基本上也尊重那我必須要我的風格"},{"start":11059.656,"end":11071.443,"text":"我先補充說明一下我先補充說明等一下我先補充可能主委忘了剛講所以我剛講一個就是說第一個我要先說明"},{"start":11072.816,"end":11097.221,"text":"主委以前的資料我都有查過所以主委就是國家人才這一點絕對沒有問題我也非常尊敬主委以及他的專業知識這一點我從來不否認那剛剛我說的是因為主委說了一句話說我們黨團我想這個我還請我的助理回過頭去調錄音那個錄影是不是我講錯了就發現是主委說我們黨團但是跟主委說明一下"},{"start":11099.194,"end":11118.399,"text":"你來這裡不管你的政黨是什麼我們都沒有意見那你的政治傾向是什麼我們絕對予以尊重但是在這邊如果說我們黨團剛剛說了什麼這句話是不妥的所以主委是不是口誤那就是主委就這個部分去說明那主委對於國家有非常大的"},{"start":11119.339,"end":11140.88,"text":"認同非常大的熱忱以及犧牲這個我都絕對認同這件事情我沒有否認過主委的專業能力以及主委對這個國家的貢獻我從來不否認我只是說在國會的殿堂不宜說我們黨團這一句話那個主委有要再補充嗎我沒有補充"},{"start":11142.509,"end":11149.237,"text":"你沒有補充嗎我沒有補充那請問針對這樣子的一個提案是在場委員有沒有意見都沒有意見嗎"},{"start":11154.977,"end":11184.002,"text":"他已經說他抱歉那我覺得我們只是希望這樣那我們從來沒有要求說黨團或什麼要做什麼樣的處分我覺得那是沒有任何意義的我也不是做任何政治攻擊或追殺我們只是釐清這個事情OK好那那個所以就要測案嗎好那我就尊重委員的提案測案那因為下一個換我發表意見我要發表意見不太適合在主席台上所以是不是可以請中線委員來站帶主席一下"},{"start":11203.807,"end":11216.934,"text":"下一個我們請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席我其實不太想要讓主委為難理由是說我必須要老實講"},{"start":11218.843,"end":11234.87,"text":"我看完這些投資案幾乎全部都不是在你任內通過的但是這件事情整個國發基金的管理運作機制必須要徹底的檢討否則會一而再再而三的發生"},{"start":11236.707,"end":11256.619,"text":"那因為我不想要讓主委為難,剛剛主委說他身體好像有一點不太舒服,那所以就請主席直接問主委,就是您希望單純的聽我講,還是您希望有機會可以respond,因為我如果不給你機會respond,對你不公平。"},{"start":11257.506,"end":11282.552,"text":"那但是好像我一定要你講又好像搶你所難所以主委是不是可以請主席先詢問一下主委他是想要單純聽我講他們事後用書面補題因為我再跟國發會還有國發基金講一次喔我點出來的問題都是希望在最後做調查報告以前給國發會有respond有回覆的機會"},{"start":11284.502,"end":11302.693,"text":"那現在我接下來要講的你們是希望說現在有答覆的機會您願意上來還是您不管是身體不舒服還是基於什麼樣的理由你只希望單純聽我講不希望回覆是不是可以請主席徵詢一下主委的意見"},{"start":11304.475,"end":11325.483,"text":"請問主委那剛剛黃委員有提到就是說主委您是有希望說有回應還是說就單純黃國昌委員他說明然後主委日後再回應看主委的意思好我們回應好那這樣子的話"},{"start":11328.366,"end":11354.227,"text":"那如果他要回應的話是不是可以請他們上去要不然他們坐在那邊我站在這邊這樣不是很好吧好那就麻煩主委主委您現在身體狀況還OK嗎還好不是你會不會累或者是身體不舒服因為我剛聽到你說你身體好像有一點不太舒服我有點擔心沒有沒有現在OK齁"},{"start":11356.735,"end":11374.431,"text":"你如果身體不舒服隨時跟我講你要回去做就請主席才是就好其實主委講的沒有錯就是說整個國發基金每一年從累積起來是有獲利但是我們看2016年以後投資的這幾家賺錢的有六家"},{"start":11380.296,"end":11394.352,"text":"慘賠了大概19家這個是我整理到2022年的經歷拉到2023年其實狀況差不了多少那這些數字其實也不是我編出來的這些數字其實我們大概去看你們所提供的財報"},{"start":11396.107,"end":11412.683,"text":"就可以寫得出來因為裡面有一些不是上市公司裡面有一些不是上市櫃公司所以我們在外面的公開資訊找不到那我看完了以後其實我很贊成我們的總統府秘書長潘孟安在當立委的時候講過一句話"},{"start":11413.649,"end":11434.306,"text":"他說國發基金不要成為紓困基金國發基金不要成為紓困基金那個時候民進黨在野的時候本來是希望透過法律來去管國發基金的作業要點那但是現在就沒有這樣子做嘛所以我們還是在產創條例的授權之下其實管理作業要點完全都是授權國發會"},{"start":11437.332,"end":11459.911,"text":"在訂定的法律沒有介入這個是2016年以後我們所看到的狀況我們2017年6月的時候投資了14.88億這個是主委有講當時投資的一些背景脈絡但是我為什麼說大家覺得很困惑覺得很困惑的第一個問題就是說到現在"},{"start":11461.567,"end":11477.654,"text":"我看到最新的資料到去年9月的時候已經虧了12.38億了這個是國發基金提供的資料投資了14.88億現在虧了12.38億這個是針對爐心的狀況那當然我們會去追啊追是說因為當初我在追的時候國發會說投資評估過程嚴謹可遭公信這是當時的國發會主委陳美玲在國會備詢的時候說的但這是你們提供資料以後我去看"},{"start":11492.881,"end":11514.545,"text":"參與投資的評估意見炮聲隆隆不是質疑就是反對不是質疑就是反對三個外省的專家意見大概都是這個樣子大概都是這個樣子那看完了這些外省意見了以後我接下來看這個是國發基金管理委員會的會議紀錄15位委員裡面有6位請假諸位"},{"start":11519.502,"end":11529.93,"text":"你會不會覺得很困惑外省的意見這麼負面15位委員有6位請假然後這個案子就這樣子過了"},{"start":11532.385,"end":11549.671,"text":"這個是我們希望國發基金能夠解釋的第一件事但是你是新任的主委這也不是你任內過的案子要你說明很困難所以在野的委員才會有那個提案意義那這個主委您說您需要兩個禮拜的時間回覆對吧"},{"start":11552.947,"end":11565.726,"text":"對嘛所以我也願意啦給你們兩個禮拜的時間回復因為如希重大投資案不是代理就是請假現在我看了所有會議記錄以後我有另外一個問題"},{"start":11567.776,"end":11593.689,"text":"因為其實那個管理會應該是最後最重要的一個會議但是你看了所有的投資的紀錄以後主委你會不會發現其實絕大多數裡面的委員通常都是找代理要不然就請假很少自己來開會的主委你有沒有發現這件事還不是只有在盧鑫的案子其他的案子都這樣可以可以可以"},{"start":11595.241,"end":11620.589,"text":"跟委員跟跟委員報告就是這個管理會的成員有七個是部會的首長那確實憑良心講部會首長每一次都到確實有困難但是他們雖然說派代理來但是意見在內部都會去做成合然後來的這個代表是去陳述這個該部會的這個意見所以你認為每個部會都好好的去去去討論過了嗎"},{"start":11622.658,"end":11632.564,"text":"這個我們不敢替其他部會這個就是我的問題了解因為你一個管理會我們理論上它是一個最後最終做final decision的地方嘛"},{"start":11634.082,"end":11656.168,"text":"我也坦白跟那做這個final decision的地方委員都不來那你們要不要重新的去檢討說那管理會的要點哪些人當委員這件事情我們要不要重新評估因為我其實不太想要走到最後一步走到最後一步就是現在給你們國發會定的管理作業要點全部用法律定你們希望這樣嗎"},{"start":11658.612,"end":11682.426,"text":"了解那就是我剛剛只是跟委員補充說為什麼那個部會會有一些代理的這個對這個就是我現在我講的還不是只有盧祥鑫的這個案子其他的案子你們全部去看通通都一樣都代理都是代理那我就覺得很奇怪啊如果都代理的話那為什麼委員要找一些明明就沒有空來開會的人"},{"start":11684.958,"end":11708.643,"text":"這個你們要不要再重新想一下這個代理的你如果是外部的委員他是不能代理的那代理的委員都是部會的首長的委員這個我回去來檢討看看的確您現在提到的就是我們怎麼去看看我去看一下是不是法律的問題我們有什麼樣的改善的方式"},{"start":11710.475,"end":11738.275,"text":"可以嗎?可以可以可以這個就是問題嘛這些問題你沒有攤在陽光下面全體國人不會知道嘛那你也同意了嘛針對這個問題看了就很誇張啊因為大家都在問啊外省都是負面意見來開會的請假一堆代理的更多這個投資過到底誰要負責現在納稅人沒有辦法接受的事情是看起來是沒有人要負責嘛"},{"start":11739.332,"end":11766.494,"text":"因為也不知道是誰做的決定因為我老實講像陳美玲這個案子她卸任了國發會主委以後她一天到晚在喊冤說她雖然是主委這案子根本不是她決定是別人決定那但是現在根本沒有人知道這一件事情到底怎麼發生誰要負責任到底誰要負責任因為現在"},{"start":11768.877,"end":11790.129,"text":"之前的主委龔明星說他比較倒楣被騙了我在這邊不要做什麼政治性的發言我在外面記者會全部都罵過了納稅人聽得下去聽不下去每個人心裡都有一把尺到底是國發會倒楣還是納稅人倒楣大家在問的是這件事情"},{"start":11792.402,"end":11813.921,"text":"國發基金那個時候承諾我要成立專案調查小組但不肯提供專案調查報告這個是我那個時候在追這件事情的時候客觀發生的狀況那也感謝這一次也感謝這一次我們成立了國發基金調查委員會我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告"},{"start":11815.482,"end":11829.349,"text":"我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告那個主委或者是國發主委很忙,主委可能自己沒有時間看這個調查報告那個國發基金的同仁有看過這份調查報告嗎?有啊你看了以後你的感想是什麼?"},{"start":11832.318,"end":11857.457,"text":"這一個調查報告由我跟委員報告一下其實也是國發基金代表在董事會去提案你知道為什麼國發基金代表會去提案嗎是這個就是也謝謝委員指正出來所以我先停一下所以我還是要苦口婆心跟主委講一件事主委你當初你剛剛在上面報告的時候"},{"start":11858.237,"end":11885.757,"text":"所以我要求國發會去介入人家公司的經營主委其實你這樣的發言不是很妥當我坐在上面聽了不是很舒服但沒有關係啦你可能也認為說你是執政黨的官員可能要講一些話給交代但從我的立場來講如同在你旁邊那位國發基金的同仁講當初我要求的是什麼"},{"start":11887.383,"end":11914.346,"text":"國發基金的董事善盡公司法裡面所賦予董事的權責這本來就是董事應該做的事主委您認同吧董事該盡他的職責是應該的對嘛所以他就因為我提出了問題他回去董事會要求提進行調查小組嘛沒錯好那調查小組調查出來的結果我那時候追半天"},{"start":11916.7,"end":11934.035,"text":"當時國發基金都不給我完全不給我我現在終於有機會看到了我看完了以後我自己感觸很深那我只想請問國發基金的同仁你看完這個調查報告了以後你們認同那個結果嗎"},{"start":11937.837,"end":11957.212,"text":"我們必須尊重那個調查小組的報告因為裡面包括讀董包括國發基金派的代表包括會計師事務所那當時沒有提供當時我不在任但是我去看了我也是這一次看到這個調查報告裡面確實有涉及到一些機密"},{"start":11958.933,"end":11985.382,"text":"誰去把這個東西提供出去我們同仁確實會有那個責任直到這一次的這個調查委員會成立了來調閱資料我們也不敢貿然提供所以我們是問了這個律師的意見才提供出來然後用這個機密的這個方式處理大概就是用這樣的一個機密不機密是一回事啦現在你也問了律師了嘛你們所有的處置我都尊重啊現在我的問題是你覺得那個調查報告有反映現實嗎當初好好調查嗎"},{"start":11989.143,"end":12016.244,"text":"就我看到的董事會要他們調查的11個事項那另外他們也增加了三個事項然後哪一些不符合這個內控的這個程序或者說離職人員的這個面談分析記錄必須要留存等等這一些部分他是有這個調查報告裡面去顯現出來這一些東西那至於說我個人是不是完全滿意對不起這個部分我比較超出我的這個判斷範圍"},{"start":12017.285,"end":12035.781,"text":"沒有啦,我其實從來不會問你們個人的看法我其實只有一個問題對於這個結果從國發基金的角度,因為國發基金不是有派董事嗎?董事總是要表達意見嘛這個董事對這個調查結果背書嗎?其實這個是我關心的事情"},{"start":12036.26,"end":12059.997,"text":"是這個董事在那一邊是表達就是說這一些要進行改善那各個權責部門也要提報這些改善的計畫並由集合式因為我們不介入公司的這個經營嘛所以集合式定期要去追蹤改善這個進度沒有關係時間的關係我很快把我希望給你們有機會respond的問題直接給你們講"},{"start":12062.625,"end":12078.092,"text":"接下來的事情我就不管啦2018年評估要退場,這是2018年嘛評估到現在應該還在評估啦那以現在股價的狀況,我看也是很難退場了啦現在還有要退場嗎?"},{"start":12080.658,"end":12105.95,"text":"跟委員報告當時我在評估的時候他是兩塊多現在到三塊多一度到四塊但我們了解因為去年開始他轉虧為盈所以我的想法如果往下等待當時我們也找顧問公司來問如果他有機會再往上走一點那越晚賣我反而虧的少一點越早賣我虧的比較大那目前看起來以他轉虧為盈的狀態來看的話我們還會再等待一段時間"},{"start":12108.831,"end":12119.763,"text":"你知道現在在我們投資的爐心公司有董事的爐心公司現在在中國那邊的實際負責人是誰中國的酒地東奧"},{"start":12123.309,"end":12149.136,"text":"實際負責人是誰實際負責人我並不清楚喔但是在台灣的話好那這樣子我提醒你喔我們董事會是目前是我們是是是一直但是從過去的教訓是有中信金空來目前託管從過去的教訓你應該知道嘛胡搞瞎搞全部在中國那邊胡搞瞎搞都在中國那邊你們也知道那裡出來的財報"},{"start":12151.418,"end":12177.681,"text":"數字對不對都要出現一個巨大的問號因為這個案子為什麼被大家併購表面上好像是如心去併酒地實際上根本是反向併購你根本就被人家吞了在台北這邊名義上好像總公司在這邊實際上根本不是這麼回事你把整個事情看完了以後你應該會認同我的看法但我現在要請你們回去"},{"start":12179.895,"end":12197.581,"text":"提醒國發基金的董事提醒一件事情因為在中國那邊的營運活動那才是實質的啦在台灣這邊只有個總部啊在台灣這邊哪裡有什麼生產營運活動沒有啊所以我才問你在中國那邊實際的負責人是誰啊"},{"start":12199.932,"end":12229.001,"text":"在中國那邊實際的負責人以我的了解我現在善意的提醒國發基金是被台灣法院通緝的通緝犯叫孫楊我有再講一次喔盧鑫畢案陳士修跑了嘛他跑到美國去嘛下面的財務長法務長一審被判刑了嘛這我都尊重司法程序還有另外一個很可惡的人中國的孫楊"},{"start":12232.008,"end":12247.515,"text":"他現在在台灣喔 台灣法院是通緝辦我們國發基金投的盧欽現在在中國那邊實際肯錯的人是我們台灣法院的通緝辦叫孫雅 在中國那邊這件事情國發基金有掌握嗎"},{"start":12249.12,"end":12262.452,"text":"跟委員報告我們這邊掌握的訊息是之前孫楊是總經理那後來是換成的總經理是James Ian Harrison我們目前的了解是這樣子那中國那一邊的這個運營因為中國那邊有"},{"start":12265.646,"end":12292.939,"text":"有這個他那個組織圖我們憑良心講確實複雜啦大概有20家左右的那個子公司、孫公司然後有的做貿易有的做代工有的做這個然後還有柬埔寨、坦桑尼亞等等的我們確實憑良心講我們要一一了解每一家公司的那個我必須承認我們國發基金的這個同仁在這個部分沒有啊但是我但是你們不是有派董事去嗎是"},{"start":12293.559,"end":12315.523,"text":"所以我這樣講台灣的納稅人對於台灣的納稅人我們國發基金所投入而且當初是因為國發基金投資本市場才那麼多人跟進結果在中國胡搞瞎搞的那個人現在被台灣的法院通緝這是客觀的事實被台灣通緝的人現在在中國繼續run在中國那邊的營運國發基金覺得合適嗎"},{"start":12320.575,"end":12349.714,"text":"那第二個問題如果覺得不合適國發基金應不應該去了解我現在還是善意的提醒我們會去查證然後進行我們必要的行動好了時間的關係我最後給你們看一個東西這個聯合再生這個我就不講了一樣外省專家砲聲隆隆這個剛在臨時提案過了你們需要兩個禮拜做說明大家都反對"},{"start":12350.955,"end":12365.268,"text":"大家都反對然後結果這些委員竟然通過了這個到底發生什麼事我看完資料以後我沒有辦法理解人家跟你講不要投那個有問題那你們還是投了還是投了所以才要把這個到底發生什麼事情要問清楚嘛這個納稅人應該有權利知道吧"},{"start":12378.394,"end":12397.139,"text":"為什麼外省專家都說不要投這有問題你們還是投了來看一下產業創新轉型基金第四次投資評估審議委員會依照公司簡報的資料2018年營收現在我還不是在講獲利或虧損單純營收"},{"start":12400.813,"end":12409.741,"text":"單純營收都沒考慮到成本營收2018年是510億2022年是980億來我們看一下實際的營收2018年沒有510億只有131億2022年也更沒有980億才188億你們有沒有看到當初的評估跟實際的數字那個落差有多大"},{"start":12428.735,"end":12454.155,"text":"主委你看了這個落差數字落差這麼大差了好幾倍現在我只有討論營收我還沒有看到成我現在營業成本跟營業費用都還沒有算你會不會覺得這個數字落差的太誇張了那當初這個評估是什麼評估是這些公司欽猜瞎瞎錢騙到就算了嗎因為我看不懂"},{"start":12456.499,"end":12464.763,"text":"2017年決定要投資的時候說2018年營收有510億結果量出來只有131億這差太多了吧的確因為當時是四大會計事務所做的我覺得這個中間應該有需要去查核的地方有需要查核的地方嘛那一樣你們兩個禮拜以後我也不要再做臨時提案你順便回應這個問題好不好"},{"start":12485.526,"end":12503.339,"text":"因為我真的是善意給你們機會做回應喔這個是客觀數字上面的差距沒有任何主觀的評價喔我沒有說誰收了什麼錢去做什麼壞事我單純的只是問說當初要來叫我們政府投資營收寫這樣2018要511億2022要980億阿時日計勒慘不能賭慘不能賭"},{"start":12513.371,"end":12540.394,"text":"就是因為這個樣子所以我們如果看實際的累積虧損國發基金投資以前已經虧損上百億國發基金投資以後又虧損上百億我看2024年第三季已經光第三季就虧了19億了你們現在2024年全年的財報拿到沒有因為在你們所給我們的資料裡面資料沒有你們2024年全年的財報拿到沒有"},{"start":12544.648,"end":12563.441,"text":"連智庫都還沒拿到嗎智捷的智捷的部分拿到了沒有智捷的部分我們手邊應該是有啦但是因為會計師查核那個還沒有沒有關係你強調智捷就智捷嘛你在資本市場上面講智捷所有投資人都聽得懂他智捷出來虧多少虧21.45億虧21.45億嘛因為所有納稅人會看"},{"start":12572.712,"end":12601.13,"text":"我們在投以前就虧這麼多了結果要國發基金投資的報告裡面我不要講說從頭到尾都在偽荷蘭這樣講話太難聽了話大餅但的確是不切實際的大餅營收落差這麼多虧損就變這樣這都是客觀的數字這沒有主觀的評價現在我們只是在思考說我們的mechanism到底出了什麼事情"},{"start":12603.869,"end":12629.23,"text":"當然投資沒有穩賺所以會有Forecast會有評估嘛但是當我看到評估資料又是這麼負面的時候我們還是決定要投了作為一個立法委員我只有個最根本的問題是Why為什麼主委您可以理解嗎我可以理解我可以理解好再來那個張濱工業區的今天你也有提報告嗎"},{"start":12630.75,"end":12653.662,"text":"你既然有提報告我相信來龍去脈你很清楚我也都講過了我就不要再複述節省大家的時間但我現在要問的問題是什麼來來來你看一下右下角說因為價金是2.62億所以不用提董事會但不對啊契約總價金是4億2600多萬"},{"start":12657.443,"end":12681.178,"text":"我真的看了這個會議記錄我看了眼睛在冒金星他白紙黑字上面就講契約總價金是4.26億超過3億董事長可以合決的權限為什麼國發基金的董事還是同意不用經過董事會董事長就可以決了這個投資案是沒有過董事會的是董事長自己就批了"},{"start":12682.373,"end":12706.076,"text":"但是我本來以為國發基金的董事被蒙蔽但後來一查他那個投資案是4.26億契約價金嘛超過3億嘛結果竟然沒有提董事會董事長自己就決定了然後我們國發基金決議的情況是說本基金董事代表會中提問並經公司回覆洽息就這樣喔"},{"start":12710.663,"end":12731.843,"text":"這個是分兩件事第一個當時是用2.63億來報那因為他認為成交金額是2.63億那我們當時做了一件事情第一個事情我們是要求我們同仁道董事會提出要求降低以後就是說我們不希望這種金額會被帶過去"},{"start":12735.886,"end":12756.556,"text":"後來當時在董事會並沒有通過我們希望把它降低不能用3億後來我們又提一個重大決策需要提董事會這次因為我們也一樣利用這個機會在大清盤以後這裡的確是有一個可以被質疑的地方"},{"start":12757.336,"end":12774.885,"text":"所以我們這一點也會找律師再去看過一遍那看看我們這邊能夠如果該採取任何行動我們會行動OK喔不是啊因為這個你問律師啦你看這個價錢是4.26億嘛對你不能只算現金啊對"},{"start":12776.328,"end":12797.423,"text":"你怎麼可以只算現金咧他加薪就4.26億啊不管3億是不是大概高就超過3億啦這個董事長也同意要去處理來來來然後特別股的狀況這個就是我剛剛最後跟你們講的說我在2023年的時候揭發這件事情經濟部發聲明罵我說已經買回60股份說我對公務員潑髒水哇這個指控很嚴重"},{"start":12805.442,"end":12830.461,"text":"這個指控很嚴重但沒關係這是經濟部發的聲明我不會找國發基金跟國發會沒有關係我會去找經濟部但重點是什麼重點是該公司所持的其實只有10%這就是我說你們早就知道這是在2022年9月就知道的事本基金意見你有看到嗎"},{"start":12832.455,"end":12835.866,"text":"中間那一欄有的你們早就知道是10%對我沒有說錯"},{"start":12840.554,"end":12860.26,"text":"我是不是跟委員報告一下因為特別股的設計它有點複雜雙方出資的比例就是1比9所以他在設計這個的部分的時候股權裡面有表決權的股權沒有表決權的股權所以我說特別股創造有控制的虛偽假象有錯嗎"},{"start":12867.902,"end":12896.217,"text":"你那60%是假的啊你10%才是真的啊我有說錯嗎謝謝委員當時針對這個議案其實基金這邊因為有詢問過經濟部經濟部對於聯合再生這個股權的處理方式他其實最後的結論是免於同意啦所以那時候基金不是啦所以你們等於是經濟部要你們配合就對了是不是沒有沒有"},{"start":12897.077,"end":12914.103,"text":"沒有沒有不是這個意思沒有因為當時是經濟部回經濟部是免於來來來來來再看下一張你有沒有看到我用紅框框起來的字說這個跟經濟部6月24號同意函的內容未符有看到嗎呃有你有看到嗎這裡這裡這個這個這個這個"},{"start":12925.731,"end":12951.266,"text":"與MOEA是什麼就是經濟部嘛英文說寫嘛6月24號同意內容未符嘛有看到嗎有他簡報不就有寫了實際有表決權的只有10%嘛經濟部當初的同意函是要他有控制權嘛所以他上面寫說跟經濟部的同意函未符嘛"},{"start":12953.295,"end":12962.678,"text":"為什麼我說你們早知道因為這是你們提供的文件啊上面還有人在上面寫這個字我就很好奇你們知不知道上面這個字是誰寫的我們回去查好不好好然後一樣兩個禮拜之內回覆等一下我會讓你講我講白話文你們早就知道"},{"start":12977.048,"end":13002.801,"text":"跟經濟部的要求不符甚至有人用手寫在這個簡報上你們可以下去查你們回去的原本這個絕對不是我偽造變造的你們回去查你們的原本因為你們提供給立法院的是銀本吧你們回去查你們的原本原本上面是不是有這個字那你們國發會的人上面就在簡報上面寫說這個跟經濟部的要求不符合"},{"start":13003.929,"end":13015.71,"text":"跟經濟部的要求不符合還是放水讓他過我看不懂啊所以我剛才又問啊說是不是經濟部叫國發會要放水那要不然這個怎麼過的啊"},{"start":13022.099,"end":13050.571,"text":"主委你有看到嗎這個我有看到我也跟委員報告齁我待會可以給你你們應該有帶嗎我們我有要求他們在下次董事會齁要求他把這個部分進行改善我們有這個提案齁你們有沒有帶有帶那個沒有主委主委主委主委我等一下就給你看其實我已經交代了這件事了我再跟您強調一次喔我知道這不是你任內發生的我也沒有要你背這個鍋"},{"start":13052.096,"end":13070.061,"text":"但我覺得這些事情要查清楚要不然根本亂了套這根本亂了套我看東西看很細的我看東西看很細的我那時候在看到這個簡報上面看到這個文字那代表你們的人早就知道他們的改善方案跟經濟部的要求不符但還是過了這就是我的問題"},{"start":13080.563,"end":13093.573,"text":"主委可以嗎這個我來查一下因為我之前不知道這個訊息但是我有注意到他只有甲種特別股跟乙種特別股那他只有百萬支持所以我2023年就注意到結果我注意到以後開記者會被經濟部痛罵說我"},{"start":13098.32,"end":13123.508,"text":"說我在講假訊息對公務員潑髒水我2023年就注意到了我2023年就揭發這件事結果當初經濟部說我在對公務員潑髒水您到2025年也注意到這件事情我講的都是真的但我現在的問題是什麼當初大家早就知道了我不是說你早就知道了因為我現在搞不清楚這個字是誰寫但可以證明一件事情從這個簡報"},{"start":13125.43,"end":13153.659,"text":"早就自帶有10%而且白紙黑字寫跟經濟部的要求不符主委這需要多久的時間這一樣給我們兩個禮拜好不好一樣嘛就兩個禮拜連今天臨時提案的事項一併書面回覆好嗎好今天我想就先到這裡啦我也不要讓主委太疲乏我再強調一次善意給你們respond的機會在調查報告正式做以前好謝謝好"},{"start":13160.978,"end":13180.384,"text":"謝謝好那個謝謝國發會的主委那我們今天登記提問的委員已發言完畢報告及提問結束那臨時提案所做的決議就請主管機關國發會按照剛剛決議的內容還有剛剛口頭詢問你們答應要補充的內容提供本次會議到此結束散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159832","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159832","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5f81a5e9e1bc61778fc15670ac5e97bb5232f1291eaafe6828c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"16:36:40 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這個就是我的問題嘛了解 了解 了解因為你一個管理會我們理論上它是一個最後最終做最後決定的地方嘛"},{"start":437.921,"end":460.011,"text":"我也坦白跟那做這個final decision的地方委員都不來那你們要不要重新的去檢討說那管理會的要點哪些人當委員這件事情我們要不要重新評估因為我其實不太想要走到最後一步走到最後一步就是現在給你們國發會定的管理作業要點全部用法律定你們希望這樣嗎"},{"start":462.469,"end":486.283,"text":"了解那就是我剛剛只是跟委員補充說為什麼那個部會會有一些代理的這個對這個就是我現在我講的還不是只有盧祐欣的這個案子其他的案子你們全部去看通通都一樣都代理都是代理那我就覺得很奇怪啊如果都代理的話那為什麼委員要找一些明明就沒有空來開會的人"},{"start":488.798,"end":512.496,"text":"這個你們要不要再重新想一下這個代理的你如果是外部的委員他是不能代理的那代理的委員都是部會的首長的委員這個這個這個我來我回去來檢討看看啦是嗎的確你你你現在提到的就是我們怎麼怎麼去看看在我去看一下是不是法律的問題我們有什麼有什麼樣的改善的方式"},{"start":514.312,"end":542.097,"text":"可以嗎?可以可以可以這個就是問題嘛這些問題你沒有攤在陽光下面全體國人不會知道嘛那你也同意了嘛針對這個問題看了就很誇張啊因為大家都在問啊外省都是負面意見來開會的請假一堆代理的更多這個投資過到底誰要負責現在納稅人沒有辦法接受的事情是看起來是沒有人要負責嘛"},{"start":543.168,"end":570.134,"text":"因為也不知道是誰做的決定因為我老實講像陳美玲這個案子她卸任了國發會主委以後她一天到晚在喊冤說她雖然是主委這案子根本不是她決定是別人決定但是現在根本沒有人知道這一件事情到底怎麼發生誰要負責任到底誰要負責任因為現在"},{"start":572.714,"end":593.966,"text":"之前的主委龔明星說他比較倒楣被騙了我在這邊不要做什麼政治性的發言我在外面記者會全部都罵過了納稅人聽得下去聽不下去每個人心裡都有一把尺到底是國發會倒楣還是納稅人倒楣大家在問的是這件事情"},{"start":596.242,"end":617.758,"text":"國發基金那個時候承諾我要成立專案調查小組但不肯提供專案調查報告這個是我那個時候在追這件事情的時候客觀發生的狀況那也感謝這一次也感謝這一次我們成立了國發基金調查委員會我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告"},{"start":619.321,"end":633.202,"text":"我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告那個主委或者是國發,主委很忙,主委可能自己沒有時間看這個調查報告那個國發基金的同仁有看過這份調查報告嗎?有啊你看了以後你的感想是什麼?"},{"start":636.155,"end":661.314,"text":"這一個調查報告我跟委員報告一下其實也是國發基金代表在董事會去提案專案去成立你知道為什麼國發基金代表會去提案嗎是這個就是也謝謝委員指正出來所以我先停一下所以我還是要苦口婆心跟主委講一件事主委你當初你剛剛在上面報告的時候"},{"start":662.074,"end":689.597,"text":"所以我要求國發會去介入人家公司的經營主委其實你這樣的發言不是很妥當我坐在上面聽了不是很舒服但沒有關係啦你可能也認為說你是執政黨的官員可能要講一些話給交代但從我的立場來講如同在你旁邊那位國發基金的同仁講當初我要求的是什麼"},{"start":691.219,"end":718.186,"text":"國發基金的董事善盡公司法裡面所賦予董事的權責這本來就是董事應該做的事主委您認同吧董事該盡他的職責是應該的對嘛所以他就因為我提出了問題他回去董事會要求提進行調查小組嘛沒錯好那調查小組調查出來的結果我那時候追半天"},{"start":720.56,"end":737.518,"text":"當時國發基金都不給我完全不給我我現在終於有機會看到了我看完了以後我自己感觸很深那我只想請問國發基金的同仁你看完這個調查報告了以後你們認同那個結果嗎"},{"start":741.676,"end":761.045,"text":"我們必須尊重那個調查小組的報告因為裡面包括讀董包括國發基金派的代表包括會計師事務所那當時沒有提供當時我不在任但是我去看了我也是這一次看到這個調查報告裡面確實有涉及到一些機密"},{"start":762.766,"end":789.238,"text":"誰去把這個東西提供出去我們同仁確實會有那個責任直到這一次的這個調查委員會成立了來調閱資料我們也不敢貿然提供所以我們是問了這個律師的意見才提供出來然後用這個機密的這個方式處理大概就是用這樣的一個機密不機密是一回事啦現在你也問了律師了嘛你們所有的處置我都尊重啊現在我的問題是你覺得那個調查報告有反映現實嗎當初有好好調查嗎"},{"start":792.979,"end":820.08,"text":"就我看到的董事會要他們調查的11個事項那另外他們也增加了三個事項然後哪一些不符合這個內控的這個程序或者說離職人員的這個面談分析記錄必須要留存等等這一些部分他是有這個調查報告裡面去顯現出來這一些東西那至於說我個人是不是完全滿意對不起這個部分我比較超出我的這個判斷範圍"},{"start":821.127,"end":839.64,"text":"沒有啦,我其實從來不會問你們個人的看法我其實只有一個問題對於這個結果從國發基金的角度,因為國發基金不是有派董事嗎?董事總是要表達意見嘛這個董事對這個調查結果背書嗎?其實這個是我關心的事情"},{"start":840.12,"end":863.956,"text":"是這個董事在那一邊是表達就是說這一些要進行改善那各個權責部門也要提報這些改善的計畫並由集合式因為我們不介入公司的這個經營所以集合式定期要去追蹤改善這個進度沒有關係時間的關係我很快把我希望給你們有機會respond的問題直接跟你們講"},{"start":866.465,"end":881.947,"text":"接下來的事情我就不管了2018年評估要退場,這是2018年嘛評估的話現在應該還在評估啦那以現在股價的狀況,我看也是很難退場了啦現在還有要退場嗎?"},{"start":884.497,"end":909.79,"text":"跟委員報告當時我在評估的時候他是兩塊多現在到三塊多一度到四塊但我們了解因為去年開始他轉虧為盈所以我的想法如果往下等待當時我們也找過運公司來問如果他有機會再往上走一點那越晚賣我反而虧的少一點越早賣我虧的比較大那目前看起來以他轉虧為盈的狀態來看的話我們還會再等待一段時間"},{"start":912.671,"end":924.68,"text":"不知道現在在我們投資的爐心公司有董事的爐心公司現在在中國那邊的實際負責人是誰中國的酒地東澳"},{"start":927.169,"end":952.975,"text":"實際負責人是誰實際負責人我並不清楚但是在台灣的話那這樣子我提醒你我們董事會目前是我們是是是對啦但是從過去的教訓是由中信金空來目前託管從過去的教訓你應該知道嘛胡搞瞎搞全部在中國那邊胡搞瞎搞都在中國那邊你們也知道那裡出來的財報"},{"start":955.254,"end":982.261,"text":"數字對不對都要出現一個巨大的問號因為這個案子為什麼被大家併購表面上好像是如心去併酒地實際上根本是反向併購你根本就被人家吞了在台北這邊名義上好像總公司在這邊實際上根本不是這麼回事你把整個事情看完了以後你應該會認同我的看法但我現在要請你們回去"},{"start":983.735,"end":1001.229,"text":"提醒國發基金的董事提醒一件事情因為在中國那邊的營運活動那才是實質的啦在台灣這邊只有個總部啊在台灣這邊哪裡有什麼生產營運活動沒有啊所以我才問你在中國那邊實際的負責人是誰啊"},{"start":1003.769,"end":1032.838,"text":"在中國那邊實際的負責人以我的了解我現在善意的提醒國發基金啊是被台灣法院通緝的通緝犯叫孫楊我有再講一次喔盧星碧案陳士修跑了嘛他跑到美國去嘛下面的財務長法務長一審被判刑了嘛這我都尊重司法程序還有另外一個很可惡的人中國的孫楊"},{"start":1035.848,"end":1051.354,"text":"他現在在台灣喔 台灣法院是通緝犯我們國發基金投的盧欽現在在中國那邊實際懇措的人是我們台灣法院的通緝犯叫孫雅 在中國那邊這件事情國發基金有掌握嗎"},{"start":1052.979,"end":1066.292,"text":"跟委員報告我們這邊掌握的訊息是之前孫楊是總經理那後來是換成的總經理是James Ian Harrison我們目前的了解是這樣子那中國那一邊的這個運營因為中國那邊有"},{"start":1069.505,"end":1096.798,"text":"有這個他那個組織圖我們憑良心講確實複雜啦大概有20家左右的那個子公司、孫公司然後有的做貿易有的做代工有的做這個然後還有柬埔寨、坦桑尼亞等等的我們確實憑良心講我們要一一了解每一家公司的那個我必須承認我們國發基金的這個同仁在這個部分沒有啊但是我但是你們不是有派董事去嗎是"},{"start":1097.398,"end":1119.363,"text":"所以我這樣講台灣的納稅人對於台灣的納稅人我們國發基金所投入而且當初是因為國發基金投資本市場才那麼多人跟進結果在中國胡搞瞎搞的那個人現在被台灣的法院通緝這是客觀的事實被台灣通緝的人現在在中國繼續run在中國那邊的營運國發基金覺得合適嗎"},{"start":1124.431,"end":1153.57,"text":"那第二個問題如果覺得不合適國發基金應不應該去了解我現在還是善意的提醒我們會去查證然後進行我們必要的行動好了時間的關係我最後給你們看一個東西這個聯合再生這個我就不講了一樣外省專家炮聲隆隆這個剛在臨時提案過了你們需要兩個禮拜做說明大家都反對"},{"start":1154.811,"end":1168.874,"text":"大家都反對然後結果這些委員竟然通過了這個到底發生什麼事我看完資料以後我沒有辦法理解人家跟你講不要投那個有問題那你們還是投了還是投了所以才要把這個到底發生什麼事情要問清楚嘛這個納稅人應該有權利知道吧"},{"start":1182.233,"end":1200.992,"text":"為什麼外省專家都說不要投這有問題你們還是投了來看一下產業創新轉型基金第四次投資評估審議委員會依照公司簡報的資料2018年營收現在我還不是在講獲利或虧損單純營收"},{"start":1204.653,"end":1213.579,"text":"單純營收都沒考慮到成本營收2018年是510億2022年是980億來我們看一下實際的營收2018年沒有510億只有131億2022年也更沒有980億才188億你們有沒有看到當初的評估跟實際的數字那個落差有多大"},{"start":1232.591,"end":1258.012,"text":"主委你看了這個落差數字落差這麼大差了好幾倍現在我只有討論營收我還沒有看到成我現在營業成本跟營業費用都還沒有算你會不會覺得這個數字落差的太誇張了那當初這個評估是什麼評估是這些公司欽猜瞎瞎錢騙到就算了嗎因為我看不懂"},{"start":1260.339,"end":1268.603,"text":"2017年決定要投資的時候說2018年營收有510億結果量出來只有131億這差太多了吧的確因為當時是四大會計事務所做的我覺得這個中間應該有需要去查核的地方有需要查核的地方嘛那一樣你們兩個禮拜以後我也不要再做臨時提案你順便回應這個問題好不好"},{"start":1289.366,"end":1307.196,"text":"因為我真的是善意給你們機會做回應喔這個是客觀數字上面的差距沒有任何主觀的評價喔我沒有說誰收了什麼錢去做什麼壞事我單純的只是問說當初要來叫我們政府投資營收寫這樣2018要511億2022要980億阿時日計勒慘不能賭慘不能賭"},{"start":1317.23,"end":1342.767,"text":"就是因為這個樣子所以我們如果看實際的累積虧損國發基金投資以前已經虧損上百億國發基金投資以後又虧損上百億我看2024年第三季已經光第三季就虧了19億了你們現在2024年全年的財報拿到沒有因為在你們所給我們的資料裡面資料沒有你們2024年全年的財報拿到沒有"},{"start":1348.49,"end":1367.421,"text":"連智庫都還沒拿到嗎智捷的智捷的部分拿到沒有智捷的部分我們手邊應該是有但是因為會計師查核那個還沒有沒有關係你強調智捷就智捷嘛你在資本市場上面講智捷所有投資人都聽得懂他智捷出來虧多少虧21.45億虧21.45億嘛因為所有納稅人會看"},{"start":1376.56,"end":1404.97,"text":"我們在投以前就虧這麼多了結果要國發基金投資的報告裡面我不要講說從頭到尾都在偽荷蘭這樣講話太難聽了話大餅但的確是不切實際的大餅營收落差這麼多虧損就變這樣這都是客觀的數字這沒有主觀的評價現在我們只是在思考說我們的mechanism到底出了什麼事情"},{"start":1407.728,"end":1433.445,"text":"當然投資沒有穩算所以會有Forecast會有評估嘛但是當我看到評估資料又是這麼負面的時候我們還是決定要投了作為一個立法委員我只有個最根本的問題是Why為什麼主委您可以理解嗎我可以理解OK我可以理解再來那個張斌工業區的今天你也有提報告嘛"},{"start":1434.609,"end":1458.439,"text":"你既然有提報告我相信來龍去脈你很清楚我也都講過了我就不要再複述節省大家的時間但我現在要問的問題是什麼來來來你看一下右下角說因為價金是2.62億所以不用提董事會但不對啊契約總價金是4億2600多萬"},{"start":1461.28,"end":1485.02,"text":"我真的看了這個會議記錄我看了眼睛在冒金星他白紙黑字上面就講契約總價金是4.26億超過3億董事長可以合決的權限為什麼國發基金的董事還是同意不用經過董事會董事長就可以決了這個投資案是沒有過董事會的是董事長自己就批了"},{"start":1486.229,"end":1509.897,"text":"但是我本來以為國發基金的董事被蒙蔽但後來一查他那個投資案是4.26億契約價金嘛超過3億嘛結果竟然沒有提董事會董事長自己就決定了然後我們國發基金決議的情況是說本基金董事代表會中提問並經公司回覆洽息就這樣喔"},{"start":1514.502,"end":1535.679,"text":"這個是分兩件事第一個當時是用2.63億來報那因為他認為成交金額是2.63億那我們當時做了一件事情第一個事情我們是要求我們同仁道董事會提出要求降低以後就是說我們不希望這種金額會被帶過去"},{"start":1539.542,"end":1560.395,"text":"那後來呢這個當時在董事會並沒有通過我們希望把它降低這個不能用3億那後來我們又提一個就是重大決策需要提董事會那這次因為我們也一樣利用這個機會在大清盤以後呢這裡的確是有一個可以被質疑的地方"},{"start":1561.175,"end":1575.661,"text":"所以我們這一點也會找律師再去看過一遍那看看我們這邊能夠如果該採取任何行動我們會行動OK喔不是啊因為這個你問律師啦你看這個價錢是4.26億嘛對你不能只算現金啊對"},{"start":1580.168,"end":1601.26,"text":"你怎麼可以只算現金呢他加薪就4.26億啊不管3億是不是大概高就超過3億啦這個董事長也同意要去處理來來來然後特別股的狀況這個就是我剛剛最後跟你們講的說我在2023年的時候揭發這件事情經濟部發聲明罵我說已經買回60股份說我對公務員潑髒水哇這個指控很嚴重"},{"start":1609.302,"end":1634.301,"text":"這個指控很嚴重但沒關係這是經濟部發的聲明我不會找國發基金跟國發會沒有關係我會去找經濟部但重點是什麼重點是該公司所持的其實只有10%這就是我說你們早就知道這是在2022年9月就知道的事本基金意見你有看到嗎"},{"start":1636.291,"end":1639.704,"text":"中間那一欄有的你們早就知道是10%對我沒有說錯"},{"start":1644.411,"end":1664.036,"text":"我是不是跟委員報告一下因為特別股的設計它有點複雜雙方出資的比例就是1比9所以他在設計這個的部分的時候股權裡面有表決權的股權沒有表決權的股權所以我說特別股創造有控制的虛偽假象有錯嗎"},{"start":1671.718,"end":1700.294,"text":"你那60%是假的你10%才是真的我有說錯嗎謝謝委員當時針對這個議案其實基金這邊因為有詢問過經濟部經濟部對於聯合再生這個股權的處理方式他其實最後的結論是免於同意所以那時候基金不是啦所以你們等於是經濟部要你們配合就對了是不是沒有"},{"start":1700.914,"end":1717.942,"text":"沒有沒有不是這個意思沒有因為當時是經濟部回經濟部是免於來來來來來再看下一張你有沒有看到我用紅框框起來的字說這個跟經濟部6月24號同意函的內容未符有看到嗎呃有你有看到嗎這裡這裡這個這個這個這個"},{"start":1729.571,"end":1743.499,"text":"與MOEA是什麼就是經濟部英文說寫6月24號同意內容未符有看到嗎有他簡報不就有寫了實際有表決權的只有10%經濟部當初的同意還是要他有控制權所以他上面寫說跟經濟部的同意還未符"},{"start":1757.132,"end":1766.454,"text":"為什麼我說你們早知道因為這是你們提供的文件啊上面還有人在上面寫這個字我就很好奇你們知不知道上面這個字是誰寫的我們回去查好不好好然後一樣兩個禮拜之內回覆等一下我會讓你講我講白話文你們早就知道"},{"start":1780.888,"end":1806.651,"text":"跟經濟部的要求不符甚至有人用手寫在這個簡報上你們可以下去查你們回去的原本這個絕對不是我偽造變造的你們回去查你們的原本因為你們提供給立法院的是銀本吧你們回去查你的原本原本上面是不是有這個字那你們國發會的人上面就在簡報上面寫說這個跟經濟部的要求不符合"},{"start":1807.788,"end":1819.549,"text":"跟經濟部的要求不符合還是放水讓他過我看不懂啊所以我剛才又問啊說是不是經濟部叫國發會要放水那要不然這個怎麼過的啊"},{"start":1825.959,"end":1854.405,"text":"主委你有看到嗎這個我有看到我也跟委員報告齁我待會可以給你你們應該有帶嗎我們我有要求他們在下次董事會齁要求他把這個部分進行改善我們有這個提案齁你們有沒有帶有帶那個沒有主委主委主委主委我等一下就給你看其實我已經交代這件事了我再跟您強調一次喔我知道這不是你任內發生的我也沒有要你背這個鍋"},{"start":1855.956,"end":1882.929,"text":"但我覺得這些事情要查清楚要不然根本亂了套這根本亂了套我看東西看很細的我看東西看很細的我那時候在看到這個簡報上面看到這個文字那代表你們的人早就知道他們的改善方案跟經濟部的要求不符啊但還是過了這就是我的問題啊"},{"start":1884.403,"end":1897.415,"text":"主委可以嗎這個我來查一下因為我之前不知道這個訊息但是我有注意到他只有甲種特別股跟乙種特別股他只有感染支持所以我2023年就注意到結果我注意到以後開記者會被經濟部痛罵說我"},{"start":1902.18,"end":1927.345,"text":"說我在講假訊息對公務員潑髒水我2023年就注意到了我2023年就揭發這件事結果當初經濟部說我在對公務員潑髒水您到2025年也注意到這件事情我講的都是真的但我現在的問題是什麼當初大家早就知道了我不是說你早就知道了因為我現在搞不清楚這個字是誰寫但可以證明一件事情從這個簡報"},{"start":1929.269,"end":1957.498,"text":"早就自帶有10%而且白紙黑字寫跟經濟部的要求不符主委這需要多久的時間這一樣給我們兩個禮拜好不好一樣嘛就兩個禮拜連今天臨時提案的事項一併書面回覆好嗎好今天我想就先到這裡啦我也不要讓主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可以跟主席同意登記發言啊 但不是質詢喔發言會發言喔 不是質詢喔 我們沒有並備質詢喔請總委員注意 現在會議的主席是我我收到你的提醒了 非常感謝您的提醒現在是不是我們請登記第一位發言的委員 許新穎委員主席 全議員您看官員要不要離席了"},{"start":191.227,"end":213.687,"text":"對不起,現在會議的主席是我,我還沒有請官員退席現在您不是會議的主席,請中委員嘉賓,你如果有問題要問,現在可以去登記因為今天的會議議程沒有寫並備諮詢,我們不知道可以質詢官員,請了解會議的程序我再說一次,從一點的時候登記發言的條件都是在外面"},{"start":216.229,"end":237.546,"text":"你的會議通知沒有寫 就是沒有並備咨詢好 非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員現在我們是不是請登記第一位發言的徐欣穎委員好 謝謝 謝謝主席本席想請這個劉主委想請 就叫劉主委 可以嗎來是不是有請劉主委來 有請劉主委你在這邊做這樣指導嗎"},{"start":245.316,"end":269.073,"text":"我知道這是委員會的規則沒有關係啊來請劉主委請劉主委好 那個是不是可以請在場的委員尊重徐欣穎委員的權利是不是尊重徐欣穎委員的權利人家已經登記發言在這邊"},{"start":270.851,"end":292.808,"text":"然後在這邊這樣子繼續干擾其他委員在會議的進行這樣不好了好那我們那個現在那個發言登記截止我們從一開始一點放到現在夠了那在場的委員有沒有要再登記的都沒有嗎好那我們發言登記就截止了現在有請徐欣穎委員"},{"start":294.481,"end":312.095,"text":"好謝謝主席那劉主委本席剛剛聽了您的報告想首先請教您您有特別講到如昕那他目前他目前盈虧如何你報告裡面沒有寫這可以講吧目前他屬於虧損狀態但是虧損多少虧損多少目前是虧損12億12.38嗎"},{"start":321.236,"end":322.857,"text":"對 12.38億所以我們投14.88億目前已經虧損12.38億整個虧了83.2%"},{"start":333.401,"end":353.326,"text":"但是委員你一定要注意到我們每一年還是有貢獻280億的獲利你整個國發基金嘛我現在是針對我現在一直覺得我們一直被同仁其實都沒有被就是我們投資的獲利或是績效沒有被公佈但是我跟委員報告一件事你剛剛說每年貢獻多少我們大概280億左右每年賺280億"},{"start":359.468,"end":365.435,"text":"我很快跟委員報告一下我上來之後我針對這個爐心的狀況我做了一個裁試因為這個狀況我們現在只有兩個可能一個就是四股當時四股的價錢大概在兩塊左右兩塊多一點沒關係那我們當時就找了我們找了單位只做一件事"},{"start":379.67,"end":407.977,"text":"我們問一下這個到底有沒有機會在股價往上走如果有機會走的話我們試股的話就會造成更大的損失所以我們決定等待那目前已經回到三塊多最多有到過四塊所以我們在期待它因為它現在每個月都有十幾億的營業額所以代表它的營收還是存在那現在整個全掌握在台灣人手上所以它還是一個值得所以我們正在等待這樣的一個公司的改變"},{"start":409.077,"end":422.468,"text":"對 因為不知道等待多久但是本席還是要在這邊因為您剛剛有講每年我們國發基金還是賺了280億所以我在這裡肯定我們國發基金的我們的所有的同仁就是這個"},{"start":427.11,"end":440.716,"text":"國發會的同仁還有這個基金會的同仁那但是因為這個如心也是今天您報告的兩家公司其中一家那您剛剛也有提到說當初你特別有報告當初這個"},{"start":443.752,"end":461.79,"text":"如心我們在決策要不要投資之前那這個投票最後在這個2017 106年這個投票的時候您還剛報告的時候特別講8比1那本席好像了解你們整個委員"},{"start":463.171,"end":473.219,"text":"大概多少人整個那一天該出席就是整個的這個決策的委員應該要有十一位十一嗎十五吧"},{"start":476.393,"end":495.108,"text":"所有委員跟委員報告我們委員會有一個庫然後去抽籤順序出來然後必須要在那個庫裡面過半的這個出席才能夠去對過半的出席但是我的意思是你發通知的委員應該有15位吧發通知的委員是11位只有11位11位真的嗎你們確定"},{"start":501.397,"end":515.372,"text":"你們發通知只有11位跟委員報告一下本席手上的資料你出席人員你列了15位跟委員報告一下我們這個委員會的召開方式是這樣的就是我們會有兩組委員"},{"start":516.593,"end":520.897,"text":"一組是屬於企業經營組你們的會議紀錄啊你們自己針對那一次投資評估審議會的會議紀錄你們出席人員就列了15位啊然後有6位請假難道不是嗎怎麼現在變11位我們開會的條件是每一組委員"},{"start":538.513,"end":557.302,"text":"對開會條件他是一定可以成立的就是說人數達到一定可以成立我現在指的是你們預計出席的人啊你發通知的在我們手上的資料是有15位啊我們開會通知都會發給所有的委員因為他們對我問的就是所有委員嘛是不是15位呢"},{"start":557.942,"end":572.004,"text":"但是我們好了沒關係你回答嘛是不是15位15到17位都會發然後能夠出席的就是說要達到會議的話要三分之二嘛目前是三分之二嗎"},{"start":575.676,"end":594.884,"text":"各辦各辦各辦過半出席然後出席的必須要三分之二過半出席才能開會然後要三分之二才能夠通過所以我們發現說你這麼多的委員但是出席的只有九位只有九位再來就是你看"},{"start":596.664,"end":618.55,"text":"這麼多年下來 如新這家公司它的整個的虧損這麼的嚴重八成整個虧損當然我們的主委你認為說我們期待它起來但是我們現在要看的就是說在當初決策的時候就我們所知你們整個的把關"},{"start":619.79,"end":635.969,"text":"在報告中你說是很審慎嚴謹但是我們看起來是不審慎嚴謹的為什麼呢因為這個如心投資案我們國發基金它是要用於產業創新高科技發展但我們看到這個如心它是傳產"},{"start":637.21,"end":658.339,"text":"也不是產業創新 也不是高科技發展 這第一點第二點呢 就我們所知當初一些外部的專家明確地指出他沒有專利權而且這個專家學者也都反對可是你們還是讓他投票通過了這個為什麼 為什麼會有這種情況"},{"start":662.992,"end":677.622,"text":"就我了解為什麼不採納專家審查的意見因為這個是一個共整個機制過去都是用共識決共識決的就是每個人都有不同的意見充分討論之後進行投票以投票的結果為準就像剛才"},{"start":678.362,"end":695.793,"text":"我們在委員會大家有不同的意見這邊也是採取投票然後以投票為主5比4剛才我在現場所以這個會不會很可怕就算你除了你除了人來投票之外沒有一些指標一定要通過的嗎包括我們的國發基金他只能用在某些"},{"start":696.773,"end":723.86,"text":"符合國發基金投資的標的這個廠商那你傳統產業你不是產業創新也不是高科技發展還有你的淨值調查很多的疏漏那這些疏漏產生了我們只要大家出席的人同一半以上然後又投票多數通過我們就讓他通過這樣我們民眾的納稅錢不是很沒有很沒有保障嗎"},{"start":724.588,"end":742.258,"text":"我們找的是從財務跟產業雙方面去熟悉這方面的人來進行投票的跟評估的那您剛剛講的但是我們擔心弊端我想因為我們是替民眾把關當然你找的專家或學者什麼"},{"start":743.078,"end":764.157,"text":"那今天我們總是還是要防弊嘛對不對我們要防弊的情況下他雖然掛著專家學者可是睜眼說瞎話或者是這個明明看到整個的評估報告不管這家公司的財務是有問題還是投資標的物不符我們國發基金該投資的那你都可以投贊成票這個是有問題的吧"},{"start":768.777,"end":783.107,"text":"跟委員報告就是國發基金他的評估機制就是擔心行政人員譬如說他看到一個特定的審查委員他的意見是負面的然後就片面把他否定掉或者決定要投所以他這些"},{"start":784.108,"end":812.676,"text":"外部委員的意見通通會如實的呈現給這個投資評估審議委員這些專家從財務面產業面各個方面來看那委員都看到了這一些反對的意見贊成的意見財務的法務的會計的滴滴的這個評估調查然後他去做出他的這個投票的行為然後是秘密投票然後但是你沒有回答我的問題我們在防弊的時候有些人為的"},{"start":814.317,"end":839.054,"text":"他可能只是就是說各種的調查結果那都是不符合的可是他還是要投投這個贊成票我們就要防弊啊每一個委員只有一票啊對啊所以那你們這個委員怎麼選出來的你在專家學者或在各個領域你們這是誰決定的"},{"start":841.243,"end":862.514,"text":"我們這個是由我們國際基金會去洽詢這個市場比較具知名的人物然後變成一個像資料庫資料庫怎麼挑隨機挑出來之後呢隨機挑的對再到像最近的話是再到我這邊我在隨機從裡面去勾選然後呢"},{"start":863.474,"end":883.2,"text":"我們是有一點懷疑啦大概我們也擔心有些專家學者他不想躺渾水他是不是覺得好像這個案子有一點壓力好像要過那有些專家學者覺得我不能違背我的良心我就不出席了那有些人呢可能是這個跟"},{"start":884.977,"end":909.714,"text":"跟這個主政的或者是想要過的假設是站在一起的那他當然出席這個弊端要怎麼防範這個您提的這個其實在很多年前這個就已經做了就是說他是早年早年是要簽名的所以委員覺得有壓力後來做了修正之後是委員"},{"start":911.535,"end":934.201,"text":"簽完名之後把他的名字那個地方是折起來封起來也就是說我們可以看到這個委員同意不同意跟他的意見但是看不到這是誰的意見然後他當場就封起來就密封起來等到這個案子出現了有任何的問題之後才去把它打開來然後看一下這個每個委員的意見"},{"start":934.901,"end":946.019,"text":"那現在呢獨興的案子會看到就是因為呢後面有意見以後大家把它打開來看裡面每一個人的意見好OK那現在我最後再問一個問題就是說"},{"start":948.43,"end":971.21,"text":"如新他應該是我們可不可以設定一些標準就像我們人的評選也一樣他要過關最後他才可以最後參加最後的比如說口試或者是什麼那如新這個公司如果他在各項的指標他都沒有符合我們的規定那就應該就打掉他就應該進步來給我們來做評選嘛"},{"start":974.29,"end":1000.003,"text":"我現在不是針對如新我是以如新為案例未來我們不希望這個就有一些公司他不管他的這個發展性創新他就不符合了還有我們也看到其實在投資前我們就知道他們這家公司的資金各方面是很有問題的所以最後他以小併大這個海外併購那也產生現在產生像現在"},{"start":1002.064,"end":1018.134,"text":"這種虧損的情形都可能很有關所以是不是你們的這個標準可以在我們要評估前你鎖定了什麼樣的廠商那你要先做一些他的標準上的一個篩選嗎"},{"start":1020.75,"end":1041.843,"text":"現在有沒有這個機制這個是這樣子我們可以再來檢討一下但是我要跟委員報告一下我們在外面有很多的新創他在找尋資金的時候他在找尋資金的時候其實他面對的很多的Venture Capital他本身會有一些"},{"start":1042.924,"end":1058.698,"text":"會一些比較嚴苛的投資標的機制那當時呢很多的其實包括至少他要符合都是有希望我們能夠盡量去扶持這些新創公司的時候我們的機制其實是比較相較外面寬鬆的"},{"start":1060.919,"end":1080.368,"text":"我懂你要表達但是你沒有抓到我的point但是你講的是說比較屬於大型的關係譬如說一家公司我要的是電子電機的那你念土木的我就不符合那所以除非你念土木可是你有電子電機相關總之你要符合那個標的嘛"},{"start":1080.848,"end":1099.7,"text":"那它已經不是產業創新它是傳產然後它也不是科技那你都把它納進來那就不符合我們這個國發基金的投資嘛像這種我的意思就是說我想我也不要浪費大家時間所以我們希望你們"},{"start":1100.62,"end":1117.458,"text":"要有一些明確的然後在他初步有一些包括這裡面應該也有我們應該長期以來也有一些就在譬如像淨值調查裡面不管他的這個財務他的各方面資金的情況"},{"start":1119.059,"end":1133.809,"text":"只要它不符合標準的你應該就要把它淘汰掉不能再放進來對 我們現在就增加了您講的我們要求它提供轉型計畫尤其是組織的轉型我們要求的很多"},{"start":1134.369,"end":1162.174,"text":"因為要不然的話過去來講很多來申請的時候他的組織並沒有改變那第二個部分我們也要求也去檢查他的能力不是說他想要轉他也要能力那如果能力不足我們現在也聘了專家會來做事前的檢查他想要轉的方向到底他有沒有能力這些都是我們就是委員剛才提的幾個那我們前面會去做比較嚴格的所以我們我們真的希望包括人民的納稅錢不要丟到海裡好謝謝是的"}]}},{"id":"16558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16558","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea84f0cb0beb0459e04182d8c913e7f3e31c35f50c34d2eafac4abfcb275d31de65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、繼續審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、繼續審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、繼續審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、繼續審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、繼續審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、繼續審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、繼續審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、繼續審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、繼續審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、繼續審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、繼續審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。十九、繼續審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十、繼續審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、繼續審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、繼續審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、繼續審查委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。二十七、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。【第二十六案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書、第二十七案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-31","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-31T08:31:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-31T12:42:00+08:00","duration":15036,"影片長度":"04:10:36","委員發言時間":"08:31:24 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請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員6人 已足法定人數好 現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄 時間114年3月26日星期四上午9時5分至16時16分 地點紅樓202會議室 出席委員牛許廷委員等14人 列席委員楊瓊英委員等10人"},{"start":1841.454,"end":1869.14,"text":"列席官员内政部部长刘世芳即相关人员原住民组委员会副主任委员钟兴华即相关人员大陆委员会人事室主任黄群芳海洋委员会人事处副处长郑忠坚即相关人员劳动部常务次长陈明仁即相关人员行政院人事行政总处培训考用处处长李花书外交部人事处副处长吴迪文国防部人事参谋次长市人事勤务处处长陈威宗教育部人事处专门委员陈佩军法务部参事廖江县主席牛"},{"start":1870.76,"end":1889.06,"text":"报告事项宣读上次会议一事录决定确定讨论事项继续审查纪念日及节日实施条例草案案及19案审查纪念日及节日实施条例草案案及6案委员黄建豪徐欣盈高金素梅说明提案要指后大体讨论完毕进行逐条审查决议"},{"start":1891.922,"end":1916.043,"text":"1.委员牛旭婷等22人所提第1条、第3条、第4条、第5条、第6条、第7条、第13条条文相关委员提案内容为牛旭婷等50人及为麦玉珍等5人所提修正动议之相关条文均一并保留2.法案名称赵伟牛旭婷等提案通过为纪念日及节日实施条例3.第二条赵伟牛旭婷等提案通过条文如下第二条本条例之主管机关为内政部"},{"start":1917.024,"end":1933.029,"text":"4.第8条修正通过条文修正如下第8条纪念日及节日之方假日逢例假日者应予补假调整方假及补行上班日其除其他法令另有规定者外有目的事业主管机关条一并公告之5.第9条修正通过条文修正如下第9条"},{"start":1933.889,"end":1957.24,"text":"第四条第六条即前条放假日之条一情形特殊者得依下列规定办理依交通运输警察校消防海巡医疗官务矫正等全年无休实施轮班轮休制度之政府机关或机构有目的是业主管机关条一之二签款签款以外为民服务之政府机关或机构学校在不影响为民服务之原则下有目的是业主管机关是实际业务需要条一之"},{"start":1958.161,"end":1982.704,"text":"3.军事机关基于国防安全考量及因应战备之需要由目的事业主管机关事实际需要调一支6.委员牛许婷等22人委员张志伦等18人委员高金素梅等29人所提第10条委员牛许婷等50人所提修正动议第10条委员高金素梅等18人所提第9条委员洪梦凯等16人所提第6条及委员徐欣颖等22人所提第11条条文均不予采纳"},{"start":1985.153,"end":2009.393,"text":"7.委员刘许霆等22人委员张志伦等18人委员高金素梅等29人所提第11条台湾民众党党团委员武力华等17人委员徐玉珍等19人委员杨琼英等31人委员林思明等20人委员罗廷伟等23人委员万美玲等19人委员黄建豪等16人委员李燕秀等16人委员廖伟祥等16人所提第9条条文委员赖世宝等22人委员陈玉珍等16人"},{"start":2010.354,"end":2025.799,"text":"政天才委员政天才等18人委员王洪威等19人委员翁晓琳等18人委员叶元之等21人委员林倩琪等20人所提第8条委员高金素梅等18人所提第10条及委员徐欣英等22人所提第12条条文均不予采纳"},{"start":2026.739,"end":2050.312,"text":"8.委员牛许婷等22人文章志伦等18人文高金素梅等29人所提第12条委员叶炎之等21人文鲁明哲等16人所提第9条委员李燕秀等16人所提第10条及委员徐新英等20人所提第13条条文均不予采纳7.委员陈寅等16人所提第7条条文不予采纳8.暂行保留条文含修正动议军令定期继续审查宣读完毕"},{"start":2054.378,"end":2060.688,"text":"謝謝 請問各位委員 上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處好 沒有錯誤 議事錄確定現在繼續進行討論事項 請宣讀"},{"start":2065.99,"end":2088.87,"text":"继续审查委员赖世宝等22人拟据纪念日及节日实施法草案案继续审查委员高清素美等18人拟据纪念日及节日实施条例草案案继续审查委员陈寅等16人拟据国家纪文化节日实施条例草案案继续审查委员吴丽华等17人拟据国家纪念日及节日实施法草案案继续审查委员牛许婷等22人拟据纪念日及节日实施条例草案案"},{"start":2089.35,"end":2111.542,"text":"继续审查委员陈玉珍等16人拟据中华民国国定纪念日与节日实施法草案继续审查台湾民众党党团拟据纪念日及节日实施条例草案继续审查委员郑天才等18人委员王洪威等19人分别拟据国家纪念日及节日实施法草案继续审查委员徐玉珍等19人拟据纪念日及节日实施法草案"},{"start":2112.182,"end":2112.642,"text":"继续审查"},{"start":2142.282,"end":2154.525,"text":"黃建豪等16人委員李燕秀等16人委員廖偉祥等16人委員高金素梅等29人委員徐欣盈等22人分別擬據紀念日及節日實施條例查案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2158.176,"end":2158.196,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":2178.283,"end":2204.124,"text":"另外本次議程所列討論事項第26案及第27案因為沒有不附議同意書我們就不予處理先來介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分有高金素梅委員麥玉珍委員張志倫委員我們本委員會部分有張宏祿委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員"},{"start":2207.625,"end":2231.626,"text":"李柏毅委員還有我們民眾黨麥玉珍委員還有我們黃建豪委員跟廖先祥委員官員的部分我們內政部劉世芳部長原住民組委員會鍾新華副主任委員勞動部陳明仁常務次長其他部分我們就自行參閱"},{"start":2234.514,"end":2237.732,"text":"好 報告委員會 我們現在繼續進行保留條文的協商"},{"start":2411.812,"end":2422.063,"text":"我們直接用逐條討論的方式來處理吧好不好那都留下記錄我們就照上一次的順序嘛上一次我們法案名稱已經確定那現在第一條的部分叫做立法理由嘛"},{"start":2422.81,"end":2446.355,"text":"那上一次我們討論的結果是因為我們本來的版本是紀念國家發展歷史傳承中華民族及促進多元文化發展嘛那我們高一金素美委員的部分因為有講要彰顯原住民族的傳統文化價值所以說上一次的部分我們經過討論就提案的牛許廷委員跟高一金素美委員有討論的共識版本將會把它改成以紀念這個族群啦各族群的"},{"start":2447.777,"end":2453.817,"text":"傳統民族及促進多元文化發展我們是不是請議事委員把上一次討論到一半的那個條文放到螢幕上好不好"},{"start":2473.53,"end":2476.513,"text":"好那我們看一下第一條的內容我念一下給大家聽請問這樣子的文字我們在場各位委員有問題嗎"},{"start":2497.392,"end":2524.434,"text":"我們的同仁有根據兩位委員所提的部分希望說在以紀念國家發展歷史後面是泥鋸國家發展促進多元文化但是後面傳承各族群等等這些我們並沒有特別的意見就是紀念國家發展歷史的時候泥鋸國家發展因為在第三條跟第五條不好意思那一句是什麼紀念國家發展歷史我們本來是寫以泥鋸國家發展"},{"start":2526.94,"end":2539.782,"text":"以凝聚國家發展傳承各族群傳統民俗及促進多元文化打上去我們討論一下"},{"start":2559,"end":2586.619,"text":"請問部長這是什麼意思你可以說清楚嗎是我們那個在鍾理思討論的時候呢就是說在原來原來這個兩位委員還沒有提案之前我們的原來在我們的我們原來的那個條文裡面就彰顯紀念日等等等等明定放假日慶祝或紀念活動凝聚國家發展促進多元文化特制定本條例那後來在兩位委員有特別提到說希望可以把"},{"start":2587.459,"end":2601.916,"text":"傳承各族群傳統民俗及促進多元文化發展放到裡面去那我們認為說這其實在整體的彰顯意義上面的還不錯這最主要我們是提到泥鋸這兩個字好那看可不可以也列入這樣子的討論那提供給各委員參考"},{"start":2602.904,"end":2609.309,"text":"所以讓你說明凝聚的意思是什麼凝聚的意思就是說在過去是依據中華民國憲法的嗎不是不是當然沒有我先跟各位報告一下最主要就是說我們在第三條跟第五條裡面我們要舉出的紀念日跟這個節日裡面那後來呢我們有在"},{"start":2623.621,"end":2648.862,"text":"整理所有的委員跟所有的黨團所提到的紀念日跟節日名稱再加上上一次很多委員包括高金委員還有包括麥委員還有包括蘇巧慧委員還有張宏路委還有劉委員提到說在過去一段發展歷史裡面我們更可以從紀念日跟節日裡面知道整個台灣的發展上面碰到什麼樣子的一個不管是戰爭也好"},{"start":2650.263,"end":2676.14,"text":"或者是慶祝活動甚至宗教禮俗文化等等這些那如果我們可以把它變成紀念日跟節日的話是讓現在在台灣的不管是各族群或是所有的國民都知道說我們紀念這個節日或者是在彰顯這個節日它的特殊意義在哪裡所以我們認為呢泥鋸國家發展這幾個字如果可以放到裡面去的話呢對於整個條文上面的可能會更明確一點那以上提供給各位委員來參考"},{"start":2677.389,"end":2692.646,"text":"部長你講了那麼長沒有辦法說服我其實呢我們的紀念日還有這些就是在辦活動的同時就是凝聚大家了嘛那你一定要把這個凝聚國家發展我是因為今天我們不是講發展法"},{"start":2694.048,"end":2713.076,"text":"我們是講的是紀念日我念一下為彰顯紀念日及節日的特殊意義並規定放假日期舉行慶祝或紀念活動以紀念國家發展的歷史傳承各族群的傳統民俗及促進多元文化發展特制定本條例"},{"start":2714.076,"end":2741.343,"text":"很順暢你在前面以一個以凝聚國家發展促進多元我覺得實在是挺複雜的這個文字看起來是不太順暢您剛剛的說法就一直在講說希望能夠紀念然後再促進多元文化發展傳承各族群傳統你要跟這個凝聚 我覺得很奇怪我們在辦活動的同時就已經是凝聚大家了"},{"start":2742.003,"end":2747.27,"text":"那你需要把凝聚這兩個字放起來你剛剛的說法沒有辦法說服我謝謝不然我的想法是這樣就是說我覺得發展用凝聚有點奇怪啦"},{"start":2755.646,"end":2774.985,"text":"就是說比如說凝聚國家認同就大家團結起來大家一起同意同意他的歷史或者是怎麼樣或紀念一些事情我覺得是OK或者你如果講促進國家發展這樣比較順這樣我理解但是凝聚國家發展我覺得有點奇怪啦我覺得有點奇怪是不是我們這文字上再來再來做一下修正"},{"start":2779.217,"end":2800.403,"text":"好 但我們先請李博弈 剛剛博弈委員先請他發言一下 我們再一起說明我們現在上面秀的文字好像不是劉部長剛剛講的應該是說沒有沒有沒有剛剛是說這個舉行慶祝或紀念活動那前面那一句不見了部長的意思前面那一句應該還有一個"},{"start":2803.257,"end":2817.291,"text":"加一句那你把那一句弄不見了齁那凝聚國家發展這個是不是要可以調整一下再來討論但是前面那一句紀念國家歷史發展那個那個我覺得還是要放上去他還是不見了啊"},{"start":2820.455,"end":2840.274,"text":"部長你是要取代掉你是用凝聚國家發展來取代今天國家發展是什麼請問一下這是誰在打字的不能用那種什麼編輯修正把我們刪掉的還是先保留在上面有槓掉這word不是有很簡單這個功能嗎大家這樣可以看比較清楚啊編輯編輯修訂那個功能可以開啟一下嗎"},{"start":2851.424,"end":2876.33,"text":"我們原來的一個思考點當然就是說我們希望條文簡潔所以才有一個就是說直接把那個什麼紀念國家發展歷史什麼我們用一個鄰居國家發展應該後面有一個鄰居國家發展願景然後那個"},{"start":2878.25,"end":2892.199,"text":"那個促進多元文化就是包括各族群都已經包括進來了就不需要再一個就是傳承各民族民族及什麼促進多元文化發展我們的想法是用比較簡潔文字去思考這個問題啊"},{"start":2903.939,"end":2912.147,"text":"主席 我覺得剛才部長說的比市長說的更清楚是不是?補充再說一下 我覺得他的解釋聽不清楚不好意思 他比較緊張"},{"start":2919.634,"end":2946.294,"text":"那個我跟大家再報告一下就是說我們在部內針對上個禮拜開完立法院的會議之後有做一下我們的檢討但是這是提供給各委員參考就是說因為它第一條是要明定我們整個的節日的實施法的重要的一個框架那這個框架我們會認為比較簡潔的方式就是說第一句跟第二句我想大家都沒意見"},{"start":2947.355,"end":2974.569,"text":"那是第三句開始的話是你一句國家發展促進多元文化特制定本條例就是這兩句而已但是呢我們又剛剛看到保留審查的部分有寫紀念國家發展歷史傳承各族群傳統民俗及促進多元文化發展等於是三個不同的框架的意義那這兩邊我想我們大家都可以接受"},{"start":2974.889,"end":2989.541,"text":"但是框架上面如果更明確可以彰顯的話會更好那所以剛剛我有跟市長講說我們大概不會很堅持說這些文字要怎麼放下去就是以尊重委員為主啦大概是這樣子理論上好 喬惠委員"},{"start":2990.782,"end":3012.521,"text":"好 如果部長是這樣表示的話那我覺得我也是可以支持這個第一條的版本就是回到我們現在修正的會彰顯紀念日及節日之特殊意義並規定放假日期及舉行慶祝或紀念活動以紀念國家發展歷史傳承各族群傳統民俗你可以不要動嗎 對"},{"start":3014.162,"end":3033.879,"text":"传承各族群传统民俗及促进多元文化发展特制定本条例我觉得支持这个版本那个凝聚国家发展其实确实是可以不用了因为如果改成各族群传统民俗这样的话是纪念发展历史然后传承民俗促进多元文化发展"},{"start":3034.54,"end":3047.059,"text":"我想這樣子應該就是可以包含我們希望藉著這個紀念日及節日的條例最後達到的是你具國家發展這樣子的一個共識我想用三句話來表彰反而比一句話清楚啦"},{"start":3048.887,"end":3064.948,"text":"好 謝謝我覺得真的你放給你的主持人是不知道那個意思是什麼對啦 好不好那我們就按照我們上次的反本好不好就是這一句話拆成三句話三句話你記成一句話 可以啦OK 好 那就麻煩那個Eason某某"},{"start":3065.669,"end":3084.794,"text":"我再念一次為彰顯紀念日節日是特殊意義並規定放假日期及舉行慶祝或紀念活動以紀念國家發展歷史傳承各族群傳統民俗及促進多元文化發展特制定本條例紀念日及節日時是依本條例之規定請問各位委員有沒有問題好 第一條我們修正通過 謝謝好 第三條第二條我們上次已經討論過了第三條的部分"},{"start":3099.349,"end":3125.805,"text":"你說第三條的部分嗎我們委員應該會先有些想法太好了太好了謝謝好我們這個內政部有準備一些資料發給大家我先跟大家報告一下第三條的脈絡上一次因為到底哪一些是紀念日哪一些是節日大家花了很長的一段時間來做討論那後來我們就希望說大家回去之後把自己有想法的來做一下彙整"},{"start":3127.83,"end":3155.368,"text":"那今天內政部有一些資料好一邊發資料我們請張宏立委員發言那如果內政部他有發這個我們就請部長先說了啦好不然我們不然等一下又要說一次重來好不好 部長謝謝召委請部長好 謝謝召委這個是這樣子齁這個是上一次我們已經有發給各位委員一份就是從我們是用月別啦1月到12月有哪一些紀念日跟節日"},{"start":3156.789,"end":3172.177,"text":"那現在我們是根據條文上面我們先從第三條開始那我們也把每一個委員在所有的29位委員的提案或者是黨團提案裡面都把它放到這裡面去也就是我們這是一個清單"},{"start":3173.297,"end":3185.551,"text":"這是一個清單那我跟各位委員再很簡單報告一下就是第三條紀念日的名稱及日期如下我們把所有的委員大概有這個紀念日一共有27個紀念日"},{"start":3188.254,"end":3217.037,"text":"那包括這個第二個武力華他委員提到世界母語日然後鄭天才、林倩琪有民族平等紀念日那言論自由日的話比較多是像高金素美委員、武力華委員、劉委員民眾黨黨團、楊瓊英委員、魯明哲、洪孟凱、張志倫、李燕秀委員等等這些那依序下來譬如說文化部他們認為說白色恐怖記憶日5月19要放進去那還有高金委員的援助民族抵抗日我們也把它爐裂下來"},{"start":3217.697,"end":3242.564,"text":"所以我們這次的爐列的部分是按照日期1月2月3月然後誰提案就寫在後面把所有的委員的提案都寫在這裡面那譬如說我再舉個例子原住民族日的話大概相當多包括從高金委員到徐巧欣委員等等都把它寫在裡面那中戰紀念日的話包括楊瓊英委員魯明哲委員都寫在非常清楚"},{"start":3243.384,"end":3261.35,"text":"那再來就是這個16、17、18國家防災日有很多委員寫進去裡面但是這裡面沒有討論的就是說為什麼紀念日跟節日到底怎麼區分我們是根據每個委員他認為是放在紀念日裡面就把它放到這裡來"},{"start":3262.15,"end":3284.596,"text":"好他放在節日的話我們就放到那邊去那這個區分呢等一下我們的這個行政機關也有不同的一個這個解釋的方法我們希望說他能夠有一致性會比較好不會說如果是有宗教的話呢可能放在第五條那有些宗教就放在第三條那所以這些不曉得我們在爐裂的時候呢這裡面是不是夠多"},{"start":3285.716,"end":3314.631,"text":"這只是一個清單跟各位報告只是一個清單或者是說他這樣是不是適合提供給各位參考那譬如說我舉個例子像22的那個臺灣光復祭金門古寧頭大節紀念日同樣都是10月25日但是臺灣光復的那一個年次跟金門古寧頭大節的年次好像差了兩年還三年了我沒有查到那是不是適合放在一起也請各位來參考一下"},{"start":3315.371,"end":3332.427,"text":"這是我們所提的這個部分所以就是叫做紀念日的名稱及日期如下就是綜合上一次上次各位如果看到另外的版本也是我們自己這個中理師所提的那這個是中理師所跟大家再做一下清單的部分以上很簡單跟各位報告"},{"start":3335.626,"end":3356.022,"text":"好 所以這一份基本上是大家提案的匯總啦好 就是用連籍的概念來處理這件事情那我補充一下因為上一次我們討論的時候其實針對第三條也有討論嘛包含比如說佛陀誕辰紀念日大家其實都蠻有共識這屬於宗教民俗一類嘛所以它要移到節日嘛那本來放在節日裡面的全國客家日是要移到紀念日嘛好不好那"},{"start":3357.199,"end":3380.081,"text":"大家針對這一份有沒有什麼想法跟意見要爭要刪我們現在可以來做一下討論我們花一點時間來處理報告主席好 高金樹美委員然後請黃建豪委員好 我有一件我想提的事情就是說我們在第一次開會的時候已經大家做出決議了就是說沒有來到現場的委員他的提案就不會在我們討論之內"},{"start":3381.903,"end":3399.891,"text":"所以陳寅跟吳立環委員他們都已經撤案了我想內政部當你們來提供所有訊息的時候你們應該要依照我們開會裡面的決議這是第一件事情第二件事情就是你上面有那麼多國民黨的提名的節日"},{"start":3401.011,"end":3413.483,"text":"召委已經講過了你們已經有一個修正動議的辦法都在裡面對不對所以我認為今天內政部你們提供的資料不應該再有你們是都沒有再參加我們的會議嗎"},{"start":3415.74,"end":3438.347,"text":"對啊你如果沒有有參加我們會議你這個資料就整理得很不清楚啊你是不是就不應該把這些第一次提案的這個這些委員的名稱就放進去我覺得這樣子你很不注重我們前幾次開會這個委員的大家的決議耶那譬如說我們講的客家日那你應該就要想現場是"},{"start":3441.242,"end":3465.175,"text":"這個民進黨的委員所提的包括張宏祿召委你這樣子才會尊重我們前兩次在這邊辛苦審法案審法條的委員嗎我覺得你們真的非常的不認真以上我提供一下我也希望召委我們是不是就建議就因為我們上次的決議沒有來的委員 撤案的委員就不會在我們討論的範圍之內好 謝謝"},{"start":3469.537,"end":3493.653,"text":"我回應一下我們高精素美委員因為其實我們辦公室也有整理一份我們辦公室整理一份的邏輯就是基於上一次討論的結果所以大家手上我們大概該拿到的在這裡叫各委員提議紀念日及節日增列調整就把我剛剛講的交換放下去我也覺得我認同因為我們內政一向以來基本上如果你沒有提案或者是測案它其實還被放進來其實滿奇怪的"},{"start":3494.193,"end":3507.54,"text":"所以我覺得我們應該順著上次的脈絡來調整所以我是不是請各位委員我們各位這個同仁我們就用這個表格來看好不好我們用這個表格來看沒有我知道印一下給大家我印一下給大家好不好"},{"start":3509.835,"end":3537.66,"text":"來啦那個還有上次對不起我再補充說明一下上次我們要結束我們的會議的時候我們也有請在場的民進黨團或者是民進黨委員能不能提出你們心裡面想要的節日那我也希望待會能夠也一併看到大家這樣子討論才會有進度好嗎謝謝我們請黃建豪委員他剛剛先舉手然後一邊我們一邊講一邊討論然後我們一邊把這個表格印下來好不好我們再進到裡面這個往後往後走來建豪委員有請"},{"start":3538.18,"end":3561.66,"text":"好,謝謝我們召委,謝謝內政部整理的這個文件我第一個是要Echo一下那個什麼佛陀誕辰紀念日理論上他應該比較像是放在節日啦這是第一件事情,我覺得建議這樣那另外一個是說那個佛陀誕辰紀念日如果是放在節日的話我覺得大家可以討論,欸我不知道上次有沒有討論,抱歉喔那個孔子誕辰紀念日他是屬於"},{"start":3563.444,"end":3582.743,"text":"是属于宗教文化还是属于这种国家纪念日我觉得这这口词变成纪念日可以可以可以看考虑一下是要放在什么地方哦然后另外就是我之前有提到一个所谓的解研纪念日算12条这个应该没有问题应该就放在这个纪念日里面这是我的主张那另外好先这样子好了谢谢"},{"start":3585.328,"end":3606.591,"text":"趙宏哲委我覺得剛剛高軍委員說的就是我們內政我們還是照內政不過大家記不記得上一次內政部有給我們這一張我覺得上次內政部有給我們這一張我們也可以用這一張來看但是我覺得"},{"start":3608.837,"end":3625.128,"text":"為了我們討論方便啦吼我們是不是用內政部這一張然後呢第三條第五條吼內政部你們整理的這個很好啦吼但是呢不是啦但是呢不用去管哪個立法委員有提案啦"},{"start":3626.184,"end":3645.835,"text":"我們不要去管哪個第三條第五條不要去管哪個立委有提案我們是把我們就是沒有來的我們就不討論但我們現在就是把應該要放進去的把它放進去把立委的那些都把它刪掉這樣子才合理啦對不對我覺得應該要這樣子來處理啦好不好不好意思請大家再稍微等一下啦因為我這樣表格就是根據我們上一次討論的那他這一"},{"start":3654.879,"end":3673.371,"text":"還在嘛 這張也可以印給大家這張可以 大家作為參考嘛因為我覺得我們待會兒以上一次討論的東西作為依據嘛然後再著以其他的資料不管是內政部剛剛發的 之前發的然後哪些要放進來嘛或者是哪些要移除嘛好 其實大家再會聚焦嘛 對不對"},{"start":3673.931,"end":3701.434,"text":"然後呢那個我是不是這樣齁那個能不能請內政部啊齁就我剛剛所說的你們第三條第五條啊齁你們去看一下啊然後把那個立委的那些都拿都拿掉我們不管哪個立委有沒有提案我們只是要看這個日子是不是合而已你們能不能再弄一份這個就收回去弄一份新的給我們啊好我們現在馬上處理"},{"start":3703.598,"end":3727.727,"text":"就把後面的 區議政委員謝謝主席我想內政部所提供這兩份表格讓我們覺得很奇怪就是我們內政委員的名字沒有放進去反而放一些不是內委會委員的名字而且也不在現場的跟上一次最後主席的結論說不在現場的委員的提案就不予審查那為什麼"},{"start":3728.587,"end":3740.617,"text":"這一張這個表格還有這麼多當時不在現場而且也不是內政委員會的委員所以我覺得內政部這一份的這個整理其實明顯的讓我們覺得很不尊重我們內政委員會的委員謝謝"},{"start":3743.968,"end":3764.84,"text":"主席如果是這樣的話就以當時審查到最後一分鐘最後一分鐘在現場的才算數喔因為今天現在在現場跟上次最後一分鐘在現場也不一樣喔對啊要用最後一分鐘在這時候只有我們幾個人在而已嘛對啊其實到了最後就是其實就是"},{"start":3765.939,"end":3787.487,"text":"要嘛你要回到這一份嘛因為我們一路就是從很多的版本然後大家各自做整合收縮之後你這邊版本上面再去做增刪當然也是可以那我講嘛其實上一次討論我們也是針對這幾份來做增刪啦所以我整理的表格就是依據就是依據這一份上面的這一份上面的相關的節日來做增刪這點我是同意的好不好那我們就稍微稍微再等一下"},{"start":3789.489,"end":3813.267,"text":"主席 主席 抱歉 我覺得你也很用心的有經歷那天我們開會最不好的感覺是內政的把你那份資料都給我們做參考這樣啦 好不好因為這下來就是大家要參考說對啊 好不好 以上來 麥建委員對不起 黃建委員先的 抱歉抱歉抱歉"},{"start":3819.79,"end":3834.837,"text":"八千八千 黃婕薇 待會蔓一貞薇不好意思這麼久都沒有叫到我 主席對啊 我的意思是說如果要依據上一次的結論那是不是上面其實很多人也都是上次都不在現場那他們的這個也都不要放是這個意思嗎"},{"start":3836.557,"end":3862.766,"text":"對啊 因為包括其實剛剛發言的幾位委員其實上一次也都沒有在現場也都不是內政委員然後甚至像剛剛其實有委員提到說佛陀紀念誕辰日到底是紀念日還是節日其實上一次也有討論過啦那我們就是趕快從上一次有的結論再往下討論那如果已經討論過的東西是不是就不要再浪費時間了然後是不是就請內政部盡快的把這個再重新給一份"},{"start":3863.366,"end":3882.958,"text":"所有紀念日跟節日的清單然後這個清單是依據上一次我們討論到最後現場留下來的包括我們這幾位委員我然後美惠委員 喬惠委員 博益委員 鴻祿委員都有坐在這裡做到最後的這幾個最後的結論再給我們好不好好 麥中緣"},{"start":3886.7,"end":3905.769,"text":"好謝謝主席我是要講兩個重點第一個重點就是說我們當天在開會的時候就是說我們所有的國民黨的委員就以我們國民黨的委員對在這邊的以召委的版本來去討論第一個我們就順這個第二個"},{"start":3908.93,"end":3910.731,"text":"第二個我們就是說我們來現場的我們來現場都講說我們就是以我們現場現在我們的主席真的很用心這個部分應該是內政部這邊要幫忙做從後面的記錄"},{"start":3926.175,"end":3948.488,"text":"所以我们的牛委员就把所有大家讲到我们现场的委员讲到的纪念日都把它整理下来所以我们希望说以我们现在整理下来的也在场的来去讨论说我们的纪念日是不是照我们上次我们讨论后的就是牛委员整理的把它放进来"},{"start":3949.168,"end":3954.589,"text":"還有節日我們整理因為現場很多委員說應該這個放應該那個放所以我們女委員很用心就把我們想要的都放進來我覺得以這樣去走下去比較順啦不要就把我們所有的委員就是以前的什麼都就把它整理起來就整個回頭路又沒有辦法進步的討論所以我建議說我們就是以現在"},{"start":3974.534,"end":3980.3,"text":"我們手上都有劉委員給的就是整理的所有的資料這一份還有我們當天我們就是修正的這兩份來去對照來去討論我覺得比較實際又有效率以上謝謝"},{"start":3989.707,"end":4016.511,"text":"好 大家手上都拿到表格然後我跟大家報告一下就是這個是那天有在場委員然後我們經過討論之後整理出來的初步版本那我跟大家說明一下更動的部分第一個紀念日的佛陀誕辰紀念日經過那天的討論原則上他要放在節日所以在節日那邊新增 紀念日那邊移除這個我們倉入委員有提到這個白色恐怖記憶日嘛然後5月19號還有這個鄭成功誕辰紀念日8月27號我們有把它放進紀念日裡面"},{"start":4017.111,"end":4033.463,"text":"那麼還有我們民眾黨特別在乎的國際移民日的部分也有針列在紀念日的裡面那麼全國客假日則是從節日移到紀念日嘛因為那是一個這個綠定的這個版本嘛那節日的部分也一樣這是參酌大家那剛剛有人問說光復節為什麼要拿掉因為其實"},{"start":4034.384,"end":4062.365,"text":"我們都希望說它邏輯一致嘛有一些節日或紀念日會出現同時的情況有一些是約定成熟有一些可以做調整那上一次討論的時候大家就說那光復節既然已經寫在台灣光復祭金門古寧頭大節紀念日那節日就不一定要再放好 這是那一天我們討論到那一天為止的結果那我們現在順著這一份表格好不好這一份表格大家往下討論OK好 我們就看表格紀念日的部分大家有沒有問題 請稍微"},{"start":4064.228,"end":4076.338,"text":"我剛有請內政部把他們上禮拜的這個啊內政部你們發了沒我覺得兩份合在一起討論啦好不好這樣才不會避免有疏漏啦這樣互相對照啦對啊對啊不然有的可能沒有啊"},{"start":4082.503,"end":4095.707,"text":"沒有啦 字比較小的那一張啦就是沒有委員名字 但是有各個各個主管機關認定截止的那一張嘛 對不對對啦 我覺得這樣子才不會怪異漏腕啦這個我覺得沒有關係 討論一下嘛那你們都沒注意的聽蘇達杜亞說要開闊對啊 蘇達杜亞就說叫你們這間要撥到那邊去"},{"start":4116.562,"end":4125.695,"text":"好 那個主席我建議一下好不好我看現在內政部現在也是一臉茫然"},{"start":4128.164,"end":4156.488,"text":"因為這個我們這樣我建議休息五分鐘然後讓內政部整理一下比如說他不是那個內政部你們的我們現在用這兩個去討論那你們的第三條第五條你們有加的有什麼的你看是要用牛委員的這一張還是什麼你們有增加的把它特別勾出來啦這樣子我們才好討論啦好不好這樣休息五分鐘啦"},{"start":4157.878,"end":4185.605,"text":"好 我們好 我們休息五分鐘啦大家消化一下因為資料剛進來嘛我們消化一下但是大部分寫在表格上第一個是討論結果第二個是本來就規定在辦法裡面的啦那我們覺得我個人是覺得說除非有什麼非常重大的理由否則本來在辦法上應該予以維持嘛然後我們針對增跟調整跟刪來可以做一下討論好不好好 我們9點45繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":4189.269,"end":4190.35,"text":"因為上次有講說你有敵"},{"start":4212.092,"end":4212.713,"text":"還是兩邊放一個啦"},{"start":4227.176,"end":4235.298,"text":"放節日比較好這樣每個節日也不一定放假沒有啦 跟放假沒有關係 他意思是這樣子我覺得你邏輯應該認人認真對"},{"start":4251.741,"end":4252.242,"text":"我覺得國際主義"},{"start":4275.356,"end":4284.585,"text":"現在先不要動作 可是可以去收一些證好啊 那就放節日啊那不好意思 我出漏了那這個就放紀念日 各家的就放紀念日OK好"},{"start":4299.918,"end":4314.348,"text":"他只是聯合國指定的日子啦他跟我們的歷史沒有任何關係他跟沒有歷史關係啦就是說有歷史關係放紀念日所以我覺得我們這樣子跑一下這幾天現在目前為止有沒有符合今天的邏輯有符合我們就給他通過然後節日部分我們再來討論"},{"start":4328.357,"end":4330.259,"text":"沒有啦 春節是道教節 我今天沒有寫出來"},{"start":4349.057,"end":4365.96,"text":"是盜竅節 沒有 是盜竅節 有寫在裡面那是舊的啊 還有辦法留一定的你知道我本來版本是要拿掉的 反正我怕被他罵了就是盜竅節跟佛羅一起拿掉 就是都不要放但我覺得這樣好像比較好 因為我覺得我們可以爭啦但是我不太敢刪啦我不太敢刪啦"},{"start":4381.412,"end":4385.258,"text":"馬祖先 上帝公先 帝君先"},{"start":4390.064,"end":4391.866,"text":"對啊 你那麼多 你真的"},{"start":4408.62,"end":4431.385,"text":"我們今天是先處理啦我同意啊 造條是來了所以今天這樣跑下來 目前大家有沒有問題就是這邊目前想要上面的就是把佛陀誕辰移走之後都是有歷史意義的嘛移民日我們要移到節日"},{"start":4432.465,"end":4446.872,"text":"所以明明是不要玩對不對這樣應該都是有意思的 記念日照表親親親他已經過三分之二的時間了 也不知道怎麼列最後三分之二 最後成功抄到後面圍條可以啦 你要大改或那個你就麻煩"},{"start":4462.728,"end":4464.29,"text":"原住民抵抗制"},{"start":4485.59,"end":4493.554,"text":"中戰紀念日 823紀念日可以不用嗎可以喔 好321啊對 民主平等紀念日就是政見財委員會他不堅持嗎好"},{"start":4515.589,"end":4533.08,"text":"臺灣國"},{"start":4534.041,"end":4554.977,"text":"我跟你講 我還是再次強調這個法案重點是方向好不好 我要強調一下這件事不要影響對 不要吵架了 我們希望今天吵架好不好今天可以好好討論"},{"start":4566.233,"end":4585.687,"text":"其實我比較希望他就是呈現多元性大家意願不一樣 大家都要呈現多元的心態可以表達 可以表述一下啦好 可以表述好 那我們希望大家的對 對 對 我們不要吵架好不好"},{"start":4590.011,"end":4598.061,"text":"好好好 我們沒有要吵架可以不堅持嗎 OK好 好 那我們回座吧 準備開會"},{"start":4612.83,"end":4625.949,"text":"好 各位委員會 我們繼續開會我們現在在今天日期節日時事條例的第三條今天日之名稱及日期那剛剛用上一次討論的框架"},{"start":4626.929,"end":4656.257,"text":"然後剛剛我們休息時間有做一些協商我跟大家報告一下第一個這個3月21號有關民主評審紀念日因為它跟很多相關的部分價值上是有重疊的所以我們提案委員就沒有堅持那這個國際移民日的部分經我們跟民眾黨黨團的溝通他們希望會放在節日的部分來做處理那因為其實要區分節日跟紀念日比較好的分界線其實是有沒有背後的歷史事件 足之紀念嘛"},{"start":4656.917,"end":4675.509,"text":"那這個國際移民日的部分是因為是全國國際上對焦的它不是基於歷史事件所以放在節日可能是比較適合的所以到目前為止所以國際移民日的部分我們會把它移到節日民族平等今天是我們不一定堅持看看大家的意見那其他的部分現在各位委員有意見嗎"},{"start":4678.763,"end":4693.102,"text":"那個部長你們有沒有要說明一下"},{"start":4697.729,"end":4712.338,"text":"我們剛整理了一部分現在整理出來了是不是可以讓我們印一下給各位委員參考是這樣子就是在牛委員的版本裡面那我們累算出來的紀念日是24天但是我們在"},{"start":4713.579,"end":4737.682,"text":"原先第一版提供給各位委員參考的部分是27天那我們現在等一下會提供給各位打勾的部分會就是女委員的版本但是漏掉的部分會請委員再參考一下譬如說漏掉的部分有這個世界母語日佛誕紀念日已經移到節日去了還有就是台灣紀念日是9月8號"},{"start":4738.703,"end":4761.981,"text":"那還有全國客家日要不要放在紀念日裡面因為這個是全國客家日的部分是客委會提供希望用這樣的名詞跟原來有委員提到說還我母語運動紀念日不太一樣那這個我們也是尊重各位的參考那以上這三個比較特殊的部分大概提供給各位參考一下不曉得印下去沒有"},{"start":4763.346,"end":4787.371,"text":"還沒印上 那我們趕快不是 剛剛那個牛昭偉有交代就是說昭偉在上一次會議結束之後的紀念日名稱那還有再加上我們所提供出來的紀念日名稱有沒有不足的地方所以我們剛剛趕快勾選一下那等一下會印出來給各位參考"},{"start":4799.803,"end":4820.84,"text":"對啊已經休息過了我們這樣子好了啦就是說表格上出的我們剛剛宣告完有一些已經經過討論要換的有沒有要刪的先這樣先討論要不要刪再討論要不要增然後就把它定案這樣應該比較那個嘛"},{"start":4822.865,"end":4843.907,"text":"對 我的表格 用我的表格因為這個不是也不只是我的版本啦是整個委員會討論到目前為止的結果嘛所以它等於是最接近大家都有意見都有在裡面的一個版本嘛好 有哪些要移除的或者是要刪除的好 民主平等紀念日鄭天才我沒上回的時候已經跟我說他們不會堅持OK謝謝那我們就暫不列入好嗎"},{"start":4846.286,"end":4872.618,"text":"我們現在目前的紀念日我們就把刪掉的三個就不要再討論了啦佛誕已經處理完了嘛對不對已經移到節日了嘛國際移民日就移到節日了嘛好不好這樣這三個就不要再就如果大家都這樣還有哪些要移除的"},{"start":4876.277,"end":4886.509,"text":"沒有好那我們就不要再討論移除了好哪些要新增的好在印了"},{"start":4888.359,"end":4911.524,"text":"我這樣一個一個跑下去啦 大家再思考一下1月1號 我們反正要等那個嘛1月1號元旦嘛 開國紀念日2月28號 我們2月28 和平紀念日3月12號 國父逝世紀念日3月14號 反侵略日3月29 革命牽連紀念日4月7號 言論自由日5月19 白色恐怖紀念日6月26 原住民族抵抗日7月15 解嚴紀念日8月1號 原住民族日"},{"start":4912.444,"end":4938.213,"text":"8月15 中戰紀念日8月23 八二三紀念日8月27 鄭仁公誕辰紀念日9月21 國家防災日9月28 孔子誕辰紀念日10月10號 國慶日10月24 台灣聯合國日10月25 台灣光復暨金門古寧頭大捷紀念日10月31 元族民族轉型紀念日11月12 國父誕辰紀念日12月25 行縣紀念日以及12月28 全國客家日這些應該都沒問題啦"},{"start":4939.232,"end":4941.593,"text":"剛剛沒有唸到我就已經先調整了嘛好 黃婕宇5月24號婚姻品權紀念日要不要放我用開放的心態 大家討論一下"},{"start":4953.971,"end":4979.545,"text":"然後如果要放的話其實我們還有很多值得紀念的自由的日子像是1979年1月20號1月22號是高雄的橋頭事件可以作為集會的自由日然後剛剛其實原本有一個是聯合國定的這個世界母語日我覺得對台灣來說也蠻重要的因為我們很多母語都需要保存所以2月21號的世界母語日也可以考慮一下"},{"start":4980.805,"end":5005.677,"text":"然後3月23也可以考慮放國家主權日因為那天是1996年3月23台灣完成首次的總統直選確定台灣的國家意識跟民主價值所以國家主權日也可以考慮放一下那再來1960年9月4號是結社的自由日因為當天自由中國的發行人雷震被捕"},{"start":5006.337,"end":5021.571,"text":"因為涉嫌叛亂那這個在對於台灣來說都是一步一步爭取自由很重要的日子所以集會的自由日結社的自由日國家的主權日婚姻平權的紀念日大家也都可以考慮一下"},{"start":5026.907,"end":5042.404,"text":"謝謝主席我想上次既然討論已經收斂到這些節日是不是就不要再講一些上次已經討論過了又要再放什麼放什麼是不是就上一次你們大家討論過後的節日來討論好嗎好沒關係我們先廣泛收集一下意見來蘇喬會委員"},{"start":5043.665,"end":5061.934,"text":"不是喔 上一次的狀況是說如果我們還有什麼意見的話我們也可以提出來所以我們確實是斟酌討論再三以後我們認為台灣確實就是一個多族群多文化我們呈現豐富不同的樣貌現在齊聚在這塊土地上就是台灣現在的樣貌"},{"start":5063.875,"end":5086.875,"text":"所以如果紀念日表彰的是台灣的歷史那麼要把各族群不同年代大家的價值大家的記憶都多元的呈現在節日紀念表再呈現在紀念日的表單上的話那麼我們和黃捷委員我們支持他提出這樣的一份彰顯台灣民主自由轉型的歷程這樣子的表單那"},{"start":5089.597,"end":5108.624,"text":"所以我們確實是想要呈現這樣的狀況這個要請主席也能夠理解然後並且遵照上次的議程是有這樣子的討論空間的剛剛黃婕委員講的我們米蘭委員都集體都同意嘛對不對要放入嘛對不對可以提供資料給我們看嗎好OK沒關係就請做一下整理好不好"},{"start":5109.738,"end":5139.578,"text":"好 做一下整理因為我覺得這個東西沒有關係只要講得清楚然後不要弄到到最後是每天都有就好嘛好 大家每個不同的政黨不同的族群心中的價值都不太一樣那我們用寬容的心態處理因為我也要再次提醒大家這部法案修正其實大部分的焦點應該是放在第四條跟第六條啦那紀念日的部分大家只是懷抱著尊敬的心態對歷史持以敬重的心態來處理我個人是覺得我們用開放的態度來處理好 那請民進黨趕快把相關的意見彙整完好不好"},{"start":5140.318,"end":5164.395,"text":"那我們就加,我們就這條,我們就要排版囉來,正好陸昭偉請對啦,剛剛劉昭偉說的是沒有錯啦其實紀念日只要有,我覺得多也無所謂啦反正又沒有放假所以剛剛這個內政部他現在他第三條他跟我們現在討論的他有多了三個一個是世界母語日"},{"start":5165.276,"end":5187.863,"text":"一個是台灣紀念日 一個是國家棒球日是不是多這三個啊 部長對 因為那個國際移民日跟全國客家日各位委員的高見是要把它移到第五條那我們都尊重 那所以剛剛在沒有沒有 全國客家日沒有要移喔要留在紀念日沒有要移"},{"start":5192.742,"end":5195.348,"text":"那國際移民日呢?移民日要移到節日一個12月18一個12月28"},{"start":5200.762,"end":5206.464,"text":"我們台灣那個宗教信仰那個最虔誠人口數最多的就是馬祖啦我希望三位、二三位我做生意也順便拿下去"},{"start":5230.57,"end":5233.233,"text":"農曆三月二十三媽祖生是不是放在節日一邊比較好來"},{"start":5255.834,"end":5262.256,"text":"吳清明委員 然後徐議政委員啊 召委 針對他這紀念日齁 紀念日齁 現在是我們內政齁 所提出齁 都可以納入 啊 但是我分析 我在這裡 我是覺得說休假的部分齁 我想 要堅持說齁 我上面所說的"},{"start":5272.219,"end":5293.377,"text":"我們會加是不是在他們的補價因為外面的勞工他們都希望說連價不要再補價就用我們多餘的價是不是這樣對這個部分來討論這比較好有意義你今天日只要是我們內政提出大家都可以把它放進去這也無傷大雅謝謝"},{"start":5295.243,"end":5318.93,"text":"補教的條文已經有列進去 這是第八條但是丁警告已經修正通過了所以應該都沒有問題待會放假的部分我們可以再補充做一下說明這個我們現在請議事人員有沒有現在用我的表格把它改成條文的樣子我還是把它秀出來然後我們請區域政委員謝謝主席本期建議要把7月7號的抗戰紀念日加入紀念日 謝謝"},{"start":5323.479,"end":5352.127,"text":"我建議要把7月7號的抗戰紀念日加入好 可以好 我們現在一方面我們請這個我們現在請議事人員先把它改成條文的形式因為我們最後要用條文修正通過的方式處理然後二方面我們各個黨還有一些想要新增的部分我們就休息五分鐘 大家會診一下然後我們把它寫上去好 休息"},{"start":5353.619,"end":5367.804,"text":"你要先講我覺得讓他們先寫但我們應該要先處理內政部剛剛提出來那三個到底要不要處理這個已經可以先處理了還是你要等他們一起還是你要等黃捷的一起我希望執政黨這邊做一下整合看內政部這邊的想法"},{"start":5375.916,"end":5391.483,"text":"不是啦內政部是內政部對啦 因爲協商的時候在休息的時候一起協調啦然後我們到時候希望說開始開會的時候已經有一個完整版本然後大家要通過嘛 好不好目標是這樣那你這樣五分鐘怎麼夠好啦 十分鐘啦時間十分繼續開會 休息"},{"start":5394.704,"end":5400.228,"text":"不是啦今天日不是把農民曆拿出來抄一抄"},{"start":5420.96,"end":5422.841,"text":"稍微先講後面的節日還沒還沒還沒"},{"start":5436.409,"end":5437.77,"text":"兄弟 稍微跟你報告一下"},{"start":5458.506,"end":5472.279,"text":"我有一個請教一點 現在很多的是主管機關沒有合訂的沒有寫在法條裡面的東西合訂的不是法條 是公佈的對 我們現在是要把它寫在法條裡面如果這裡有寫 這裡以後要不要寫"},{"start":5475.728,"end":5484.397,"text":"因為不能把農民運拿出來抄啦不然我看很多人對不對剛剛還有人說玄天上帝也要對啊 不能這樣子啦"},{"start":5494.507,"end":5501.113,"text":"你這個要放以後這個合併日是不是都要放"},{"start":5514.727,"end":5518.33,"text":"現在就是比較細的要把這些夾子都放進去"},{"start":5530.843,"end":5533.244,"text":"現在在討論的是紀念日好"},{"start":5556.391,"end":5556.451,"text":"好,好,好"},{"start":5571.908,"end":5572.749,"text":"加 加"},{"start":5596.89,"end":5597.511,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":5615.267,"end":5628.977,"text":"對 所以這個等一下會討論這是等一下有一個衝突的點有兩個點 兩個節有衝突啦一個就是孔子 一個是十月二十五十月二十五"},{"start":5643.767,"end":5667.736,"text":"可是現在只有25的時候在節日的時候已經有刪掉了所以是不是看你已經刪掉就算了所以這兩個考量這樣可以談得到沒有 現在只有兩個節日有問題沒有 假日是假日放假是等一下下一條考 下一條放假對 不一樣 你有節日有假日你節日也不一定會放假 今天日也不一定會放假就是"},{"start":5670.518,"end":5679.388,"text":"可以,你有今天日子可以放,你可以放球都可以放不過以前都不能認真認真看這些東西謝謝節日"},{"start":5685.315,"end":5699.526,"text":"把他定為立法是也沒差啊對不對本來就行政就是有就全部把他定在今年入院也是可以可以可以對啊不一定限於這樣"},{"start":5706.33,"end":5719.716,"text":"因為這些都是本來在你們的日曆裡面就有顯示出來對,有些沒有,像這個新的6月26日的新聞26日,這個原著名的"},{"start":5721.837,"end":5723.838,"text":"結束的部分大家有什麼想法嗎"},{"start":5742.231,"end":5745.172,"text":"沒有啦 我建議還是用這個一樣就是說 拿下拿掉"},{"start":5765.357,"end":5779.826,"text":"沒有 哪些要增加 大家加兩三個他就砍就了 好不好這個 對不起問一下等一下是先第四條還是直接跳第五條我應該會先跳第五條啦好 難得要處理好 那我等一下再回來"},{"start":5780.526,"end":5783.868,"text":"823沒有放在紀念日嗎823沒有放在紀念日嗎這怎麼以前沒有放"},{"start":5807.381,"end":5826.52,"text":"對啊,你就不管他嘛我等一下還是要跟他講一下,823怎麼沒有法不是,這件事本來就存在的紀錄,他只是沒有寫在法條裡他只是沒有寫在法條裡,沒差,其實沒差所以我反而覺得法條要精簡一點對,他還是可以寫緊張"},{"start":5832.406,"end":5839.235,"text":"今天是早午放假還是節日放假都無可能放假我們決定我們決定哪一天放就哪一天放大家決定"},{"start":5853.008,"end":5855.392,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":5877.056,"end":5877.076,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5904.33,"end":5910.411,"text":"823紀念日有沒有列為國定的紀念日"},{"start":5932.058,"end":5932.979,"text":"有些人今天也有節日會會會會會會會會會會會會會"},{"start":5968.389,"end":5969.169,"text":"加弄濃力的就"},{"start":5984.183,"end":5988.648,"text":"8月15東戰紀念日是誰要放的8月15的東戰紀念日"},{"start":6004.323,"end":6009.445,"text":"我們現在修完這個假設第三條確定完了以後會有三個新的日子"},{"start":6028.496,"end":6038.668,"text":"就是原住民抵抗日 東站紀念日跟823紀念日還有嗎我說以還沒有加之前 是只能加這三個所以大家可以跟大家講"},{"start":6049.059,"end":6061.726,"text":"沒有啦,要有全國共同的...不是...不是...不是...不是...我的想法是我們一定要讓人家知道我們是家族,他們是家族,還是都不要..."},{"start":6073.452,"end":6081.335,"text":"解嚴紀念日原本就是在法庭我們講的是新的日本清台出生朝聖日"},{"start":6101.462,"end":6103.444,"text":"這個簡介日沒有什麼好討論 簡介日以前就有放進來啦對 美國搶走"},{"start":6117.858,"end":6121.281,"text":"而且他們是要加幾點是綠色他們加的對不對"},{"start":6130.951,"end":6148.765,"text":"維英平 綠色是他們家 對啦 綠色是他們家的那是上一次討論綠色是他們家的啦 五月二十四黃鐵架都是新的啦他剛剛才加的可是 我請教一下沒有黃鐵可以自己一起加的嗎對啊 因為現在是委員會討論啦現在這個出去就是大家一起的修正中心的概念"},{"start":6157.752,"end":6179.547,"text":"沒有我一直不希望第三排都沒有公司其實很久 表現很久如果他的修正公寓我們要簽名我們要支持他的版本如果我今天可以達成公司這條就不用協賬了那這不是誰的版本這就是大家的版本我剛講修正通過就是大家共同的版本那這全部人都要一起簽"},{"start":6182.469,"end":6194.339,"text":"沒有 綠色的是他家的綠色是他家的對啊 綠色是黃偉的什麼叫結社旗什麼是結社旗五月二十四五月二十四五月二十四以前沒有這個物理"},{"start":6211.744,"end":6227.652,"text":"就是說可以請主辦官表示意見啦 如果他同意我們就沒意見啦那就來一下啊 反正到時候就趕快過讓他看這套放假而已他們要回來啊 問他們是不是有意見"},{"start":6235.533,"end":6238.898,"text":"現在同居到一千五百多人"},{"start":6258.646,"end":6271.194,"text":"全部都是那種意識形態的那種圍繞家全部都是那種意識形態的今天是要有歷史 今天是要有歷史"},{"start":6271.834,"end":6273.675,"text":"時間到就再開會啦,他們不在就過啦"},{"start":6301.613,"end":6309.881,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":6329.823,"end":6329.983,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":6333.426,"end":6334.187,"text":"日本沙賽德克帕萊"},{"start":6354.614,"end":6369.369,"text":"不然我們第一個立法院修紀念日 紀念日公佈日就是紀念日公佈日就是我們的紀念日"},{"start":6376.976,"end":6381.78,"text":"給主管機關表示意見就好了啦給主管機關表示意見沒問題就過啦"},{"start":6406.829,"end":6407.79,"text":"好 報告委員會我們繼續開會喔來 這個剛剛齁"},{"start":6430.919,"end":6439.483,"text":"在休息時間大家會整想要新增的紀念日現在放在螢幕上好我們就一條一條來說明跟討論"},{"start":6444.112,"end":6469.647,"text":"第一個是那個事件模糊的部分本期是有一點意見啦因為剛剛我們有講嘛就是說跟國際名是一樣嘛它是一個對齊對齊國際的日子嘛那它對齊國際而且沒有四射背後的歷史事件的時候我是覺得它比較適合放在節日啦我覺得這個部分是不是大家委員看看委員大家有沒有什麼意見我覺得是放在節日比較比較恰當啦"},{"start":6471.664,"end":6492.961,"text":"好 那我們就放在結日的時候把它加進去好不好好 放在結日 但價值上大家同意啦大家不會有問題對不對 好 謝謝再來是第八條 現在第七條的欸等一下 我進去一下阿那個黃婕委員的有啊 都在上面還沒啦 還沒拉 還沒拉上去啦那請議事人員現在上去我們再來討論啦 不然會"},{"start":6499.531,"end":6500.331,"text":"蒙 日 佛 家佛 日 佛 家"},{"start":6541.715,"end":6544.361,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6583.258,"end":6590.501,"text":"好 答好了齁好 針對1月22的所謂的職業制度我們是不是請提案委員說明一下理由是什麼方教委員 麻煩你好不好 謝謝"},{"start":6598.195,"end":6610.899,"text":"喂 好 就是1979年1月22號高雄發生的橋頭事件就是在台灣實施戒嚴30年之後第一次的政治示威活動那我認為也非常有紀念意義各位有意見嗎聽不懂 什麼意思"},{"start":6624.588,"end":6651.557,"text":"他在講的意思是說是當初紀念橋頭事件然後為什麼橋頭事件要作為集會自由日因為他是台灣實施戒嚴三十年以來第一次的政治示威活動不只是高雄非常重要的民主歷史上的大事件也是對於台灣在反抗威權非常重要具有紀念意義的一個集會自由的日子"},{"start":6654.4,"end":6668.223,"text":"好我們一次把它說明出來那個母語熱播我們已經確定把它移到節日嘛對不對323是不是再來這個也請我們請提案委員一次說明再說明清楚一點好不好323的部分"},{"start":6670.455,"end":6691.994,"text":"1996年3月23號台灣完成了首次的總統直接民選那對於深化台灣的國家意識還有主權以及民主的價值是非常有意義的所以3月23可以作為國家主權日的一個紀念日我覺得這件事情我比較有意見啦因為"},{"start":6693.847,"end":6704.536,"text":"總統辭不辭選當然是民主制度的重要進步這個本席完全不反對啦但是不管總統有沒有辭選國家有主權就是有主權啦所以我覺得這件事情會不會造成大家的混淆大家是不是要再思考一下這件事情對不對 因為"},{"start":6707.731,"end":6734.673,"text":"不管這個全世界現實上來講不管你是民主也好或是獨裁也好有主權他就是有主權嘛被承認他就是被承認嘛對不對所以我們這個國家主權的跟動跟這一天好像沒有直接的關聯啦對沒有直接的關聯我覺得我不希望有太多的這個這個我希望他比較直觀一點好不好來李博弈很好我覺得可以討論啦但是把它彰顯出來1996年3月23號是台灣總統直接直選而且是由中國國民黨"},{"start":6736.23,"end":6759.825,"text":"呃的李登輝總統來當選齁把1996年3月23把它凸顯出來那你要前面要叫做國家主權日或台灣總統直選日等等的我覺得你可以拿出來討論我建議這樣子好不好改成總統直選紀念日啦我覺得總統直選確實是我們歷史發展重要的里程碑啦齁但我覺得你如果要硬是要掛鉤跟主權有關我覺得反而會模糊焦點大家有沒有意見"},{"start":6763.125,"end":6791.518,"text":"來 小二圓我覺得這個名稱的討論確實是很值得這個大家一起來慎重思考的狀況因為同樣的狀況其實也發生在我們其他的紀念日有相當多就是如果我們要讓這個紀念日的紀念彰顯的價值是可以比較直觀一點大家了解那到底是要寫價值呢還是是要寫這個事件呢還是是要寫這個形容詞"},{"start":6792.698,"end":6821.106,"text":"這個我覺得大家都可以討論一下因為我覺得最後整套紀念日下來大家最好是同一個邏輯我覺得會是更好的狀況比如說228當時大家經過集思廣益千絲萬縷最後說是一個和平紀念日但誰都知道228就是台灣的一個歷史的傷痛日這樣的狀況但他最後定在這裡的時候我們和平算是一個期許或者是一個及其公約的狀況那過去是這樣那現在323如果是要從"},{"start":6822.606,"end":6845.198,"text":"這個國家主權日這是提案的人的這個我們的寫的文字要改成民選總統日這不是不行喔這當然可以討論但我的意思是說那所有的紀念日是不是同一個脈絡大家也可以深深思考好 針對名稱現在大家有沒有什麼好的建議嘛我剛剛有丟出來嘛對不對我們先從這一條開始啦"},{"start":6854.417,"end":6878.704,"text":"因為他講是第一次總統直選好 要先講完再討論也可以啦但我是覺得可以達成共識的我們就先達成共識嘛比如說剛剛母語日的部分大家很快達成共識就OK嘛好不好我們先聽一下大家的意見好不好那這一條我們要直接把它改成總統直選今天是還是說大家還要再討論"},{"start":6882.061,"end":6908.172,"text":"我覺得啦總統直選怪怪的民選民選民選可以啊對不對民選比較符合總統民選一般來講因為以前你也不能講他不是民選當然他是透過他是透過間接選舉嘛就選出國大代表國大代表再選總統嘛所以他好像他差異應該是在於直不直接啦"},{"start":6909.229,"end":6929.18,"text":"好大家再想一下5224這個是4748嘛上路我有沒有認知錯誤沒有這當然沒問題我覺得多元文化大家開放一點心態好不好好這條我覺得這條應該比較OK啦我們就用包容的心態開放的心態來看待這件事好不好那924號勒"},{"start":6943.191,"end":6965.102,"text":"9月4号是1960年9月4号这个自由中国的发行人雷震被以涉及叛乱为由来逮捕那当时蒋介石甚至说他的刑期不得少于10年那这个其实也是代表说这个结社是被当时是被严格控制的那这个也是对于一个"},{"start":6966.642,"end":6978.726,"text":"言論自由以及結社的自由的一個很重要的很令人震驚的一個事件所以也希望說在這邊可以作為一個結社的自由日的紀念這一條大家有沒有什麼想法沒關係都可以講沒有關係我們現在還只是討論的階段而已"},{"start":6991.442,"end":7001.831,"text":"我覺得紀念日還是應該要有就是大家共同的一個共識啦否則的話隨便一個都可以當紀念日那365天都有可以紀念的地方沒有啦我覺得節奢自由日的這個剛剛聽完我覺得應該這個針對節奢我現在講針對節奢自由日啦大家應該不懂這在紀念什麼"},{"start":7021.653,"end":7023.635,"text":"人民有言論集會結社的自由這是一個多麼珍貴的權利也是台灣的祖祖輩輩走到現在我們才有這樣的自由啊"},{"start":7041.412,"end":7069.393,"text":"這個何其不意當然應該值得紀念啊所以我們在這裡每一次的事件才開啟了這個民主的大門的一小個縫隙今天大家可以大開大合甚至坐在這裡就這麼多不同的史觀不同的價值不同的事件做討論這是很難得的事情所以我們當然覺得言論集會結社都應該放在這裡都應該值得被紀念這就是台灣跟其他地方最不一樣的地方啊"},{"start":7072.152,"end":7084.632,"text":"預備委員我覺得我們現在很好現在開放式的來討論那當然剛剛國民黨的委員他著重史觀從這個7月7號說什麼7月7號對不起提出來是什麼"},{"start":7086.741,"end":7113.559,"text":"抗戰紀念日齁那這個是比較史觀齁這是大概二戰時代但是民進黨委員這邊比較多提出來就是我們現在看到的我們現在看到整個台灣民主化的過程包含剛剛我講的1996年呃李登輝總統就是台灣總統直選那接下來黃捷委員提出婚姻平權然後包含民主紀念日等等的那我覺得我們可以在台灣的民主化的過程因為"},{"start":7114.56,"end":7135.18,"text":"這一些都不是天上掉下來的集會 結社 遊行 言論都不是天上掉下來的所以我會主張把這一些民主化的過程也都放進去謝謝好 還有沒有委員的意見那最後美麗島事件黃國健委員補充說明一下好不好"},{"start":7140.764,"end":7162.14,"text":"對美麗島事件又稱為高雄事件在1979年的12月10號當天也是國際人權日那在高雄發生了一個非常重大的衝突事件甚至當時的蔣經國政府稱為這個是高雄的暴力叛亂案但是呢當時有非常多的黨外人士在集結了這個美麗島雜誌社為核心的黨外運動人士他們集結然後組織群眾到"},{"start":7167.864,"end":7188.264,"text":"街上進行遊行演講希望可以訴諸台灣的民主跟自由來終結當時的黨禁以及戒嚴這個對台灣來說也是非常重大的一個事件所以12月10號的時候其實台灣不只是紀念這個國際人權日尤其是高雄人對於美麗島事件"},{"start":7189.125,"end":7215.181,"text":"都非常的有感那甚至直到現在大家也都認為說想到戒嚴要從戒嚴到解嚴從威權到民主美麗島事件都對於台灣的歷史上這個民主運動的過程是不可或缺也一定要紀念的一個日子所以我也希望大家可以藉由這一天來回顧美麗島事件以及對於台灣民主的重要性好 謝謝大家有意見嗎"},{"start":7219.909,"end":7241.999,"text":"那個我說明一下因為我剛剛稍微算了一下各個天數啦我們先不談剛剛我們黃絕委員增加的這幾天其實過去在本來的表格裡面跟這個過去紀念威權統治跟相關的重大歷史事件分別有2228號的和平紀念日有4月7號的遊歷自由日我把它用比較寬的心態來解釋有5月19的白色恐怖記憶日7月15的"},{"start":7243.22,"end":7269.314,"text":"解嚴紀念日基本上已經有四天那剛剛當然你要用當時的一些抗議的事件來作為紀念的標的當然不是不行啦但是因為當初的抗議聲其實非常多嘛那農民運動要不要也放一下對不對中立事件也有但我的意思是說如果都這樣的話那會沒完沒了我們是不是請民進黨這邊做一下整合我們挑最有代表性的幾天稍微濃縮一點好不好我用開放的心態討論好不好"},{"start":7271.377,"end":7291.408,"text":"主席 現在是主席說的要開放大家的探討啦因為我認為大家互相包容 相關住民的抵抗日我們就有協助了我認為未來的事件是對整個台灣是一種你不要說我們多少也沒有嘛讓我們記憶我們以前的時代發生什麼事情"},{"start":7299.972,"end":7328.688,"text":"未來不要再來發生這些這我覺得這幾年來應該是沒什麼衝突跟什麼吧我們舉手順序先請續政委然後副小慧主席主席那我建議要再增加幾天現在可以說嗎可以啊好那我建議增加11月11號是反貪腐紀念日因為那是台灣民選總統被判刑確定陳水扁總統被判刑11年所以我建議要把那一天就是"},{"start":7329.528,"end":7335.551,"text":"反貪腐紀念日那另外呢還有2006年的12月10號紅三軍的這個運動喔那我也建議12月10號會把它定為紅三軍紀念日謝謝"},{"start":7345.404,"end":7373.934,"text":"蔣委員我尊重徐委員的發言不過我覺得是這樣子我覺得如果要講到反貪腐和紅三軍大家都開始知道這樣的討論氣氛就有點轉換了因為我本來要接著黃捷甚至是接著主席的發言我是要說的是說我們撇開鄭成功誕辰紀念日和孔子誕辰紀念日來看的話那我們其實可以看到目前的紀念日我們是從"},{"start":7374.914,"end":7391.708,"text":"黃花崗72烈士329然後開始推翻帝制創建民國所以我們黃花崗完了之後我們開國開國以後有國父所以我們國父誕辰紀念日接下來我們抗日接下來我們反共"},{"start":7392.609,"end":7417.464,"text":"然後再來我們是解嚴解嚴這個解嚴然後開始有這種民主的狀態進來那中間還有過去的原住民族鋪陳在裡面當然對於原住民族我非常的尊重嘛我也是成人之一嘛那我們確實是應該要列入原住民族的史觀不過我也被"},{"start":7418.325,"end":7435.584,"text":"這個上一次討論完成之後也有一些原住民的族人朋友問我為什麼原住民的史觀是從抗日開始為什麼不是從抗漢開始這個倒是另外一個議題不過我覺得剛剛這樣一系列討論下來我再重述一次我們從推翻帝制一直一路"},{"start":7436.625,"end":7447.656,"text":"抗日反共到民主時代我覺得這其實是一個還蠻合理在陳述台灣史觀的狀態如果現在要再加上其他的話我是覺得氣氛會跑掉啦這樣"},{"start":7449.714,"end":7478.429,"text":"這是我剛剛丟這個意見雖然有一點每一個節日它都對一群人來講它都有它重要的意義嘛所以我剛才講是不是在這幾天裡面我覺得剛剛有講節日自由日節日自由日分別是橋頭事件跟雷震案嘛但我覺得比較為所有人所知道的其實應該是美麗島事件加上12月10號本來就是國際人權日嘛本來就有人權日的設計所以我們是不是把這件事我們集中在美麗島事件當天來做紀念我們就把它放進去這樣是不是比較平衡啦"},{"start":7480.182,"end":7498.136,"text":"好 可以算一下天數嘛對啊 因為這樣子跟整個比如說 包含我們在針對這個戒嚴時代威權統治的戒慎恐懼跟反省裡面就有和平紀念日 有言論自由日白色恐怖紀念日 戒嚴紀念日還有美麗島事件紀念日嘛"},{"start":7498.917,"end":7523.591,"text":"就五天嘛其實一年裡面五天其實我覺得已經算是蠻蠻有一定的代表性我講說針對針對這一段時間啦近代這一段時間的歷史記憶這樣好不好我們想我們還盡量用用平和協商的方式處理好不好對啊你當然一段一段的一段一段的一段一段的歷史嘛來 政天才委員"},{"start":7530.064,"end":7559.008,"text":"有關這個早上高津素美委員有說明就是說針對我本來一提的民族平等紀念日我原來的針對這個原住民族從這個大港口事件清朝的時候大港口事件接著後來的牡丹社事件一直到"},{"start":7564.751,"end":7593.047,"text":"從清朝的大港口事件到後來的牡丹社事件接下來總共有13個重大的歷史事件在對原住民族的一個侵害所以我提的是民族平等紀念日那因為高金素美委員也有提一個原住民族抵抗日當他是針對一開始他的這個利益是針對一個單一的事件"},{"start":7593.703,"end":7617.336,"text":"那後來我跟他溝通之後我們在所以在整個係數上係數上就是把我剛講的13個重大歷史事件把它併到這個原住民族抵抗日原住民族抵抗日這樣不是我說民族平等紀念日我本來沒有訂"},{"start":7619.056,"end":7627.91,"text":"我本來沒有定這個時間我那時候是我的條文啊我提的條文是由原住民組來來結來來會商決定了我原來條文是這樣"},{"start":7633.894,"end":7660.245,"text":"所以這個部分是因為我本來想說這個因為跟跟民族跟原住民族抵抗日其實是可以可以併在一起所以我就我就把它併在一起不是這個不是針對日本喔原住民族抵抗日不是針對不"},{"start":7664.251,"end":7684.046,"text":"所以我現在是補充理由嘛我補充理由是要把那個天才 您的部份喔您的部份來來來補充這個理由那個補充理由啦因為您的部份剛剛民主評審其實高經緯也有幫你做補充跟說明啦已經解釋得很清楚那剛剛我大概算了一下啦我們跟跟這個"},{"start":7686.567,"end":7709.484,"text":"目前為止跟反共有關的有3月14的反侵略日823的823紀念日還有10月24號的台灣聯合國日10月25號的台灣光復節即古寧頭大節紀念日這幾天是跟抵抗中共比較有關係的那抵抗日本的"},{"start":7712.771,"end":7734.001,"text":"8月15的中戰紀念日還有剛剛徐宇貞委員增加7月7號的抗戰紀念日跟這個關父節嘛台灣關父節三天跟族群有關的有原住民族抵抗日原住民族日還有原住民族轉型紀念日三天那跟憲法什麼直接有關的當然就是我們的開國紀念日我們的國慶日我們的行憲紀念日"},{"start":7737.987,"end":7745.819,"text":"大概也是三到四天那你如果講說過去紀念革命的有國父四世紀念日跟革命先烈紀念日兩天報告"},{"start":7748.564,"end":7766.881,"text":"各位委員會其實大概啦大概紀念一段時間的史觀的天數大概就是至多不超過五天啦那目前為止當然我們講現在我們當然越近的事情我們用越慎重的心態來紀念我再講一次跟威權時代有關的和平紀念日言論自由日白色恐怖紀念日解嚴紀念日"},{"start":7769.248,"end":7788.09,"text":"這幾天那如果加上剛剛如果我們全部都列入的話會變十幾人我覺得多少會有一點失衡的狀態所以是不是再多再請委員會我們如果要再增加一天跟這個相關的我們是不是就以美麗島事件為代表我們就放在12月10號來做處理好不好我們用這樣的方式來處理這樣其實就蠻平衡的啦剛剛小霍委員很在乎平衡的問題好不好"},{"start":7790.131,"end":7816.378,"text":"不是啦 就是加一個美麗島事件紀念日嘛那剛剛黃協委員提案母語日我們放在節日嘛婚姻平衡紀念日我們納入嘛 好不好然後我們就加一個美麗島事件紀念日這樣子這樣會不會比較平衡一點然後大家有機會達成共識嘛我們希望大家好好討論好不好我們直接修在上面啦對 這個就先拿掉嘛"},{"start":7821.383,"end":7845.642,"text":"我剛剛都已經唸給大家了嘛大概就是三到四天啦不會超過五天啦其實真正今天是比例最高的還是都是靜待這一段時間的事情嘛這是客觀的事實嘛 對不對好吧 我們就用這樣子我們再來從頭跑一次用這張表我們用這張表要稍微保留一下大家想一下每個到時候不能改對 我也跟各位"},{"start":7847.695,"end":7857.545,"text":"我會報告因為這個事情的修訂馬上討論完節日就要紀念日跟節日討論完要放假其實大家最在乎的是這個事所以我們不能在這個事情上耽誤太久那當然我希望求圓滿嘛"},{"start":7863.598,"end":7891.93,"text":"好 我們再view一次喔開國紀念日 和平紀念日 國父四世紀念日 反侵略日 革命先烈紀念日言論自由日 白色恐怖記憶日 婚姻平權紀念日 抗戰紀念日往下拉 原住民族抵抗日 解嚴原住民族日 中戰紀念日 八二三紀念日 政人公誕辰紀念日台灣紀念日 這個是講這個是講舊金山合約啦 這跟國家主權有關 好來往下 再往下"},{"start":7894.69,"end":7911.273,"text":"對 總統直選 這我覺得OK啦有一個共同記憶啦那個9月8號是舊金山合約簽訂的日子啦這不是台灣光復不是同樣一件事情嗎這個就是史觀嘛 要呈現多元性不是這樣嗎剛剛是內政部長希望的"},{"start":7923.174,"end":7933.446,"text":"我是覺得其實這樣子已經很平衡了,大家就趕快確定,我們就往下一條走啦沒有沒有沒有,我覺得差一個差很多,剛剛那個台灣經驗室我覺得很有意見台灣經驗室很有意見,來,喬惠委員表達一下"},{"start":7938.19,"end":7956.966,"text":"9月8號而且名稱又是一個叫做台灣紀念日這個如果是離開我們委員會小朋友啊一般人在翻的時候就完全不知道台灣紀念日在做什麼東西那到底在紀念台灣的什麼好你現在說它是舊金山合約舊金山合約對不對那我們現在再解釋一下好不好"},{"start":7966.618,"end":7975.874,"text":"說明一下 9月8號主要是究竟在何為日本放棄台灣的那個主權的這一塊那這個看大家委員的一個意見要不要納入"},{"start":7979.966,"end":8008.628,"text":"其實我是覺得難免放棄台灣的主權以致於台灣可以有機會走自己的路的話如果是這樣詮釋我是很贊成啊對啊我覺得難免複雜啦我是很贊成啊對啊如果你要這樣詮釋的話那你不如把這個名稱名稱寫得更清楚一點對啊我覺得名稱想一下啦台灣紀念日可能大家不覺得但那個大家都會接受啦對啊名稱我們大家想一下要怎麼改啊要怎麼想"},{"start":8010.919,"end":8029.76,"text":"不好意思我幫大家補充一下好不好因為其實舊金山合約裡面第二條規定的是日本放棄對台澎的所有權跟權限跟請求權但是留下一個未決的一個伏筆也就是說當時這樣舊金山合約只是台灣的地位未定論"},{"start":8031.82,"end":8059.286,"text":"對 那名稱上你要有說法嘛因為剛剛名稱上他沒有是小會委員的意見就沒有那麼直覺啦就沒有那麼直覺嘛對啊 他並不就是舊金山會議並不等同台灣紀念日徐議政委員謝謝主席我想如果要講史觀的話我覺得12月1號的開羅宣言紀念日比舊金山會議還要重要我就是擔心這個事嘛因為開羅宣言是讓台澎等歸還給中華民國啊"},{"start":8061.406,"end":8080.203,"text":"對啊 所以我覺得如果要講的話我覺得開國訓練紀念日其實我覺得比舊金山會議還要重要對 我就是擔心這樣的事所以我剛剛特別幫大家算了天數的原因就是這樣就是確保多元意見的呈現但是不要陷入細節然後導致這個法律重點跑掉嘛好不好"},{"start":8083.26,"end":8091.523,"text":"所以我覺得我其實覺得按照本來的版本然後多加幾天 加美麗島 加總統直選加牧羽市 其實差不多了啦好吧 如果這個聊主席台灣今天這個是內政部有希望啦但我還是聽一聽大家的意見台灣反殖民日欸"},{"start":8113.101,"end":8129.014,"text":"沒有好不好因為我覺得說台灣抵抗日欸主席我覺得這個可能趕快要收斂一下光今天就講這麼久了我覺得那對不起主席沒關係"},{"start":8130.307,"end":8146.184,"text":"我覺得剛剛經過鄭天才委員又來這個委員會這邊再陳述了一下以後我覺得其實不管日期定在哪一日啦但是我覺得他的民主平等日其實比這個援助民主抵抗日剛剛的說法其實我們比較能夠接受"},{"start":8146.624,"end":8170.283,"text":"名稱我沒有說日期因為現在講到名稱嘛對啊因為剛剛我們就是在說欸其實原住民的史觀到底要從哪裡開始把它放進中華民國現在的紀念日當中如果現在推到最早的是原住民族抗日那抗漢的部分呢對不對啊所以他的名稱剛剛本來是這個民族抵抗民族平等日那我們反而覺得鄭委員的說法其實比較可取啊"},{"start":8172.625,"end":8193.758,"text":"我們光是針對哪些東西要紀念 哪些東西不紀念已經搞了一個多小時了已經搞了一個多小時了現在外面人大家會關注這個法案的修正的原因其實是因為它可以有助減少勞工的工時好不好好 如果真的真的大家不願意我們現在暫時在保留一下但我希望大家要各自妥協讓步如果沒有這一條我們就保留協商"},{"start":8194.994,"end":8224.198,"text":"如果沒辦法的話我們待會討論完別的我們繞回來如果還沒有辦法達成共識這點我們就跑去解商好不好要不然真的沒完沒了我覺得會議的節奏沒有辦法進行下去也不太好好不好先保留一下啦好那個我請議事人員齁整理一下節日的部分比照剛剛用這張表格比照一下然後我們先我們去除條嘛好不好第四條的部分哪些紀念日要放假之前大家的立場其實在上一次的"},{"start":8226.227,"end":8226.668,"text":"我們照調次來"},{"start":8230.24,"end":8257.262,"text":"因為節日他光是要key出來他又要五分鐘十分鐘我不要浪費時間了啦好不好就他一邊key我們一邊討論放假的部分我一樣再讓大家再讓大家表達一下放假的意見我重整一下上次討論的結果三日國民黨黨團基本上已經完成黨內整合有關於紀念日放假的部分就是新增九月二十八空子誕辰紀念日十月二十五台灣光復祭古寧頭大節紀念日以及十月二十五的行限紀念日增加在紀念日的部分增加三天國定假日"},{"start":8257.802,"end":8287.411,"text":"那我現在再請高進委員跟民眾黨的麥立正委員表達一下你們對於哪些事要放下的一些想法也請民進黨這邊做一下準備法條在這裡在這裡在這裡在這裡也請民進黨做一下準備如果民進黨現在針對因為我們之前有講嘛你如果有想法可以在這一次的討論來提出來如果沒有想法或者是什麼那也可以表達一下立場或者是疑慮都可以好不好那我們先請先請麥立正委員麥立正委員對於這樣放哪幾天放假第四條的部分有沒有想法"},{"start":8296.2,"end":8317.114,"text":"這第四條沒有沒有放假的部分我們是沒有沒有想法就是照我們的女委員這邊是說放假的部分就是那個移民日移民日要要放假就是要我這個部分我是堅持增加節日對其他紀念日就對"},{"start":8320.512,"end":8348.741,"text":"今天日的部分我沒有意見今天日的部分沒有意見好 但放假的時候民眾黨是希望國際移民可以變成國定假日嘛對OK在天數的部分你們有什麼主張嗎天數沒有沒有 OK對 天數就是我們教師節跟勞動節就是全國放假就要求教師節跟勞動節有當初的承諾嘛所以放假 對對對對好 謝謝就是這三個謝謝麥麗珍委員高清素美委員有想法嗎針對第四條"},{"start":8351.325,"end":8374.891,"text":"大家都是非常的互相尊重了那我覺得如果今天大家都對於很幾個條數最重要的條數尤其是剛我們講的那個紀念日大家都沒有一個共識要送朝野協商的話那麼第四條呢我就也送朝野協商好不好高清委員希望用協商的方式來處理來 民進黨針對放假的部分請問黨團的成員我們內政委員 來 李博弈委員謝謝"},{"start":8379.466,"end":8404.436,"text":"剛剛民眾黨委員講的那個放假好像不是在第四條裡面對不對他說新住民日好像沒有在裡面對不對確認一下我們現在討論第四條嘛對啦沒有因為他本來那個移民日到底要放紀念日還是節日嘛後來剛剛有定調那如果要的話到時候要整理要換一下修正動議的內容啦因為他可能要在節日的部分主張嘛對不對好"},{"start":8405.868,"end":8431.69,"text":"那請問民進黨的委員針對放假的天數跟日期有沒有想法我想請內政部表達一下就是說針對這一個紀念日如果有放假的話那在立法院如果經過二讀三讀之後整個中央政府實施的狀況會是怎麼樣的程序謝謝"},{"start":8434.697,"end":8455.357,"text":"好請內政部說明好謝謝張偉謝謝李委員的關心那個我們在歷次的這個討論都有跟大家報告過現行的辦法就是說我們在前一年的這個年中中間的中是由行政院的人事行政總署發布就是說下一年我們全"},{"start":8456.678,"end":8474.23,"text":"台灣的公教人員的放假日那個本來就只有規範到軍公教但是因為台灣每個人的活動或是身份職權其實重點很大所以民間單位包括企業也就是以我們的人事行政總署發布的為主"},{"start":8475.071,"end":8490.119,"text":"那如果說我們現在所說的這個放假日有所改變的話因為今年的放假日呢在去年的時候已經公佈那所以如果有所改變的話呢也只能在下一個年度才能再開始試用"},{"start":8491.059,"end":8515.841,"text":"否則的話呢現在突然因為大概不會減少啦會突然增加放假日的話我們這兩天也知道包括財經部門他也提到說如果有增加一天或兩天或是三天那突然再宣布的話呢恐怕對於很多尤其是要二四小時還有包括服務業這些呢他們在排休假啦或者是要增加他的加班天數或者增加他的加薪等等的恐怕會這個有點"},{"start":8518.283,"end":8536.168,"text":"太快那沒有辦法在今年下半年的時候呢就馬上實施這是我們收到的訊息但是相關的部分因為上次朝委好像有希望請財經部門的這個公務系統的人過來表達所以我們就尊重他們的表達的意見好 針對第四條大家還有沒有什麼想法黃建豪委員"},{"start":8545.831,"end":8565.07,"text":"好 谢谢赵伟我想这个孔子诞辰纪念日然后跟十月二鼠号跟十月二鼠号这三天了当然是暂时站到现在现在大家我剩下国民党这边这边有共识了那为什么只有三天是因为我想也是为了保留节日跟后续大家要新增的部分但是我想我当然个人立场上我的目标当然希望还是能够放七天"},{"start":8565.791,"end":8584.324,"text":"那如果这个三天那待会节日那边没有到四天或者后面的别意见没有到四天没有总共没有到七点的时候我们是不是还会再回来讨论纪念日的部分呢好这第一个啊第二个是说当然我就讲说这些不管是我们现在讲的九月二十八十月二十五跟十二十五这几天"},{"start":8585.425,"end":8603.37,"text":"這都是我小時候就有在放假的日子所以我覺得這是大家社會上大家共識比較高的日子所以才挑這幾天出來那我也期待說如果後面討論要哪幾天放假的時候是不是也能夠依照社會上大家覺得比較有共識的日子來放假那我覺得這是比較不會有爭議的部分以上謝謝請 張宏祿教練有麥克風開一下你有開嗎有開勞動部"},{"start":8616.92,"end":8620.606,"text":"來 換邊 換這邊"},{"start":8623.395,"end":8647.527,"text":"勞動部簡單說明一下勞動部對於放假的態度都覺得可以正向討論至於說要放哪幾天放什麼重要的節日怎麼放我們都會尊重大家的意見但是有一些地方要做基本的提醒就是說百工百業的規模還有種類都不太一樣其實一天24小時全年都有很多不同的工作者在工作場域做相應的處理"},{"start":8647.987,"end":8670.744,"text":"所以有關於放假的部分那第一個部分我們當然希望說可以提早讓我們勞工的朋友有一些相應的安排那包括他跟雇主中間因為如果是放假那他怎麼安排自己的時間或者是說因為企業或事業單位不能停止的狀況像我們服務業或三班輪或很多"},{"start":8671.244,"end":8689.463,"text":"重要基礎設施他都有24小時執勤的問題所以需要有一點時間讓我們可以勞工跟僱主這一邊在對於整個工作場所做比較好的適度安排所以我大概簡單說明兩點第一點就是說對於應該全國一致性怎麼放放哪些那我們尊重"},{"start":8691.004,"end":8705.592,"text":"也大願的一個安排那只是說未來在實施之前最好預留一定的時間的彈性給我們的勞工朋友跟企業單位可以去做相應的一個調整這個大概以上報告好謝謝謝謝次長的說明"},{"start":8710.137,"end":8735.587,"text":"其實不外乎兩件事嘛我今天之所以再多排一天因為這法案本來就很容易高度分歧嘛之所以再多排一天其實就是希望可以達成共識為什麼希望今天達成共識如果達成共識我們就不用等待所謂的協商冷凍期嘛這法案如果早一點通過早一點上路早一點確定其實大家的因應時間就夠了嘛所以拜託大家啦如果我們盡全力啦希望今天有機會是可以不用協商的方式來處理啦"},{"start":8738.526,"end":8761.284,"text":"這個那你說剛剛那個次長有提到就是說這個比如說配套啊或輪班他可能會來不及調那就照常出行兩倍薪嘛因為如果是國定價值出行就是兩倍薪嘛所以他也不是不能處理啦其實可以處理那勞動部剛剛其實也講希望早一點通過啦希望大家可以希望大家可以捐氣成見我們共同為勞工的利益來努力啦好不好好第四條大家有沒有意見紅燈小姐"},{"start":8767.25,"end":8777.116,"text":"第四條看起來大家沒有共識啦對啦我現在先問一下各黨因為剛剛民進黨黨團的意見 高進委員的意見蠻清楚那民進黨黨團這邊有沒有意見希望審慎以對 也可以 沒關係現在就是大家都有不同的看法啦好那我們只好繼續往下走嘛 好不好還有人針對第四條嗎 羅廷惠委員"},{"start":8796.001,"end":8825.644,"text":"好謝謝召委我想在座所有的委員大家都是為勞工來發想那還是再拜託因為冷凍期的部分也是很擔心讓他沒辦法提早上路是不是能夠再討論一下不要急著就馬上要送協商拜託我們在現場其實剛剛勞動部有講需要一點時間到底是這個時間是一年後還是三個月的時間準備期我覺得都還可以討論那勞方跟資方其實當然我們都認同一定要給予一些時間去做因應"},{"start":8827.226,"end":8840.462,"text":"但是還是拜託第四條這個就直接送政黨協商不是不好只是說因為就是這個人動棋讓我們很擔憂所以也拜託民進黨是不是休息五分鐘大家來討論有沒有這個機會這個部分也拜託趙偉評估一下謝謝"},{"start":8844.844,"end":8862.276,"text":"不好意思我要再次发言了外委会的这个我想要确认一下因为现在在第四条部分既然今天那目前就我们自己所谓国民党这边有所谓三天嘛那这三天大家没有共识的部分是说觉得这三天不应该是不应该放多放三天假这问题还是这三天"},{"start":8863.197,"end":8882.948,"text":"哪一天不適合放假我覺得這個要稍微講我們才辦法有共識因為如果是從頭到尾大家有人覺得說這三天就不要多放三天假的話那這個討論就會不太一樣那如果是要挑哪三天來放那狀況也不一樣所以我是希望這個部分有意見的部分是不是明確一點這樣我們才走得下去"},{"start":8883.688,"end":8910.727,"text":"來 放假的部分怎麼放 放幾天喔我們 我是希望今天還是尊重大家表達意見的權益所以三四五六我們還是會走一輪然後到時候再一起抓一個時間做協商啦可能十分鐘十五分鐘之類的好 現在第四條意見大家差不多表達完了大家心裡有數 好不好第五條 我剛剛也在我們討論第四條的時間也請議事人員先把第五條節日的部分打上來現在我們請他秀出來我們先進第五條節日的這個陣營應該不會這麼多啦我希望可以順利一點 好不好"},{"start":8918.755,"end":8937.501,"text":"對對對對沒關係等一下等一下放進來哈哈哈來節日跟紀念日的差別就是說它比較不是歷史事件嘛它也比較沒有什麼史不史觀的問題其實是大家的一個習慣跟認同啦好不好那先看一下這個我們跑一下"},{"start":8941.307,"end":8969.453,"text":"民俗節日的部分春節1月1號農曆1月1號元宵節農曆1月15號清明節在清明日端午節農曆5月5號中元節農曆7月15號中秋節農曆8月15號重陽節農曆9月9號除夕12月最後一天原住民族的歲時祭儀由這個主管機關徵詢各部落意見後公報並刊登政府公報好再來我們一塊一塊來好不好這個民俗節日的部分應該OK吧"},{"start":8972.88,"end":8990.258,"text":"現在民俗節日的部分是指到除夕之前嗎還是原住民歲時季之前對 歲時季就那個第一點的123456789啦原住民族啦歲時季之前嘛齁"},{"start":8993.053,"end":9019.789,"text":"對剛剛丁薛忠委員有特別提到3月23號的媽祖聖好像還沒加上去那個應該是跟那個的位階應該是跟因為我覺得這個的民俗節日是全部人高度習慣啦高度約定成熟那個別的宗教個別信仰我覺得放在後面因為從第二點開始有沒有就是比較個別的有一定的共識但是它強度沒有那麼高包含道教節包含我們剛剛欸這個有沒有佛陀誕辰紀念日嘛如果有媽祖的那個可以放在這邊好不好"},{"start":9020.589,"end":9036.106,"text":"所以剛剛第一點這九項民俗節日就沒問題好不好一到九沒有好OK來再來我繼續往下齁道教節農曆一月一號消防節一月十九農民節定於立春世界母女日剛剛有討論過二月二十一婦女節三月八號植樹節三月十二"},{"start":9037.059,"end":9064.973,"text":"大家都自己看好不好佛誕4月8號我講一下有更動的部分啦一個就是世界母女日加進來因為剛剛的討論然後佛德誕辰紀念日在4月8號來再往下其他大部分都是既有的都是既有的還有提案的內容再往下人權日那個移民日我們就叫移民日啦因為如果進到台灣來他應該就就沒有國不國際的問題嘛他應該是要跟是要融入我們的社會嘛所以就叫移民日好這幾天大家有沒有問題主席"},{"start":9065.911,"end":9083.666,"text":"檢區政委員主席我建議要增加一天因為2月4號是農民節那7月1號是漁民節是不是能夠而且在內政部的事業主管機關核定之日裡面也有7月1號是漁民節是不是能夠加入好幫我們寫進去好不好先寫進來來大家對於節日有沒有什麼還沒什麼想法"},{"start":9092.867,"end":9094.728,"text":"其實我們昨 其實節日比較好討論先討論節日"},{"start":9141.67,"end":9155.878,"text":"我們那個佛陀誕辰的部分不要叫佛陀誕辰紀念日好不好因為你放在節日裡面又叫紀念日蠻奇怪的欸那個是不是御佛節我搞不清楚對不起佛陀誕辰日好了好不好佛陀誕辰日就好了就不要用紀念日了"},{"start":9159.264,"end":9186.238,"text":"媽祖誕辰日農曆四月出發吧對啊三月啊對不起我看錯我請教過我看笑臉人家拜什麼我就跟著拜主席啊一路媽媽祖這跟一路拖地公伯阿勒跟這個公伯跟這個媽都有人在拜"},{"start":9192.046,"end":9214.62,"text":"所以我剛才有講不管是紀念日不管是紀念日或者是節日都是都一定會遇到這個問題嘛就是我放了一個之後其他都全部放進來那我覺得我們還是要有還是審查的時候還是要有一個底線啦也就是說挑比較有集體意識的比較就強度比較高的列進來會比較好啦那大家商量一下嘛好不好大家商量一下"},{"start":9218.217,"end":9238.134,"text":"不是啦 因為我是覺得這種 因為什麼什麼神明大家各自都有在拜嘛像今天玄天上帝啊 上禮拜觀世音 上禮拜土地公 這些都有人在拜啊對啊 也有人拜財神 這是互相尊重耶 每個月都有人在拜互相尊重耶你看那個八公"},{"start":9244.555,"end":9271.609,"text":"在新娘廟也有很多人在擺是不是那個召委是不是你...沒關係喔 我們現在一樣用開放的心態來討論這件事喔當然哪幾天你總要列出來吧哪幾天要列出來嘛 一樣嘛我們哪幾天先列出來算一算天數我們再討論嘛 只能這樣子啊"},{"start":9274.537,"end":9298.824,"text":"對不對好來現在上面的這幾天大家有沒有意見啊主席好李博議員我們現在是在訂這個現在這個是節日嘛齁節日搞得好像我們已經在邊還名利了是啊我就不能變這樣嘛那邊弄名利了部長也在那邊笑那內政部也是主管所有宗教禮俗啊這個也很為難啊"},{"start":9300.27,"end":9318.194,"text":"你到底哪一些節日那我當然也尊重丁薛忠委員剛剛講的這個媽祖誕辰日然後剛剛當然還有很多這些其他的節日我們是不是要多放進去這個真的是傷腦筋丁薛忠委員為了促進大家的和諧"},{"start":9329.025,"end":9353.714,"text":"沒有 你聽一下對啦 有一個邏輯是個別宗教我們就統統統一不放進去不是說沒有這個節日而是不放在法條裡面這是一個邏輯另外一個我提供一個中間的做法就是說以一個宗教以一天為限啦因為你像媽祖 土地公等等是道教信仰嘛那七七月要是道教節嘛那所有的佛教就放在佛的蛋層啦要一天啦"},{"start":9354.588,"end":9366.079,"text":"好不好 我們用這樣的方式來處理好不好有一個道教節就好了啦對啦 有一個道教節嘛 因為道教節有嘛好不好 那學長我們就不要解釋好不好道教 也要有佛教還有天主教對齁"},{"start":9378.451,"end":9407.359,"text":"這樣比較空白就聖誕節新鮮紀念日伊斯蘭教這個 趙偉請 羅立浩委員好 我覺得這個大家真的都非常的絞盡腦汁都很努力啦但是剛剛趙偉說的我覺得也不無道理就是如果今天真的沒辦法我們再後續討論比較細項那今天把大象的就放上來就一個宗教一個部分我覺得這個部分是可以的"},{"start":9409.565,"end":9435.344,"text":"好如果一個宗教有部分的話好不好但是你要新增你總要有人提嘛因為我們現在被放進來的很多也是從委員提案的版本或者是我們委員會討論的版本嘛如果萬一我們今天比如說各個宗教都要可我們連他放哪一天我們都不曉得的時候那某些什麼有些狀況因為有道教節啊對啊道教節有啊因為1月1號就有啦好謝謝學生委員好那這樣子大家還沒問題我們可以拍板了嗎"},{"start":9440.885,"end":9461.582,"text":"不行為什麼不行呢好 再看一下可以再看一下教委我可不可以說明一下好嗎好 請部長那個跟大家報告一下因為我們原來這個假日的實施辦法是一個行政命令那現在你把它提升到法律未接那各個主管機關又授權他們可以自己對外發布"},{"start":9462.262,"end":9480.095,"text":"那所以我們的中理師在內政部的這個法律裡面既然提升成法律的位階那內政部所主管的這些節日我們當然就希望放進去所以不管它原來是跟宗教有關的或是跟特殊有關的所以我們爐列出來一共有100個"},{"start":9482.016,"end":9498.744,"text":"節日100個那跟原來牛委員整合國民黨黨版的33個是差兩倍這是一個再來就是說如果你要授權給各個目的事業主管機關那就會牽涉到你的保留審查第六條裡面"},{"start":9500.245,"end":9514.715,"text":"放假日哪一個節日是放假日也就是說有放到第五條的才有可能是變成放假日沒有放到第五條的恐怕就不可能變成放假日那所以當然每個部會他們譬如說有醫師節或者是什麼這個這個甚至有這個消防節農民節等等這些"},{"start":9521.019,"end":9537.708,"text":"甚至是兵役節當然每個人都想辦法能夠擠進來會比較好那這次是我們碰到比較為難的地方也就是說從法律的制定的過程當中你一定會碰到這些節點或是這些爭議點是需要討論的以上幾個要跟大家表達我們的想法"},{"start":9538.581,"end":9550.477,"text":"我大概回應一下就是說如果真的修法過後哪一些東西要怎麼放假基本上未來就是透過修法流程來做處理嘛那部長你的意思是說你這一張要全部放在條文裡嗎"},{"start":9551.677,"end":9570.824,"text":"我再跟大家報告一下就是剛剛大家的討論過程我們都沒有表達意見就是說依照委員會表達意見但是我舉一個例子譬如說原住民的睡時祭儀那有的人希望提供是一天的放假日有人提供三天的放假日那你要不要寫在第六條所謂的節日放假的規定這是一個那再來就是剛剛"},{"start":9573.225,"end":9586.492,"text":"剛剛那個麥玉珍委員提到了他希望這個移民日就是從國際移民日要放假那所以這個移民日這一天要放進去以外你可能要在第六條也要放進去裡面我是說舉兩個實際上已經放在這邊那如果用這樣的方式來看的話國際移民日是全部的人放假那就跟原來那個牛委員所提到在第"},{"start":9597.859,"end":9614.216,"text":"剛剛說放假日的節日是三天增加三天放假日那移民日又增加一天就變成四天所以在審查的過程當中一定會出現這樣的比較矛盾或是說有這個爭議的部分要提供給大家來做審查法案的通知"},{"start":9615.476,"end":9628.904,"text":"這個本來就是要透過討論的東西慢慢去化解旗艦這沒有什麼問題但我們現在還是先把很麻煩的事情先處理完嘛就是到底哪幾天是節日哪幾天是紀念日嘛這個總要先有嘛你才能夠睡著往下去談這個東西嘛好 張宏睿委員"},{"start":9631.73,"end":9657.559,"text":"其實在討論節日的部分其實我們應該要考慮就是說這個節日對台灣現在所有的人民對啦有沒有重要的值得那個是不管是信仰也好或他職業或他什麼的對他有沒有重要的影響我覺得我們是應該從這個方面去思考啦因為台灣是一個多元的那也"},{"start":9658.84,"end":9686.39,"text":"不應該就是說什麼比如說每個宗教用一個我覺得我剛一直在想也覺得怪怪的那還有剛剛部長講的那個我們真的要思考一下你訂了這個節日之後你的放假什麼其實這個是連動的但我們還有一個就是我們上次討論的就是說有一些授權他們去處理或什麼的你有節日"},{"start":9687.29,"end":9702.723,"text":"他就會去授權去處理因為有一些很多的比如說節日其實他們主管機關可能也要是會辦一些活動或是什麼的這點我們在立法的時候我們必須要考量一下這個請大家想一下"},{"start":9706.546,"end":9718.422,"text":"主席,在這裡我要問保庭姐,這是互相探討,和大家互相尊重剛才我們有聽到說移民,移民者要放假"},{"start":9721.26,"end":9747.966,"text":"我覺得移民節來的時候,當然是辛苦,不然不是,如果有我們台灣中華民國的生活,我要請教移民節的效果,有什麼你有辦法?因為雖然你拿這樣嘛,他說要效果嘛,以我們的中央政府,你有什麼看法嗎?"},{"start":9749.719,"end":9776.093,"text":"移民節我幹嘛因為現在還沒有討論到哪一天要放假好不好我們要先把哪幾天放在節日先處理完然後我們再來討論不是啦剛才他說移民節要休息對 因為剛剛寫在第六條裡面啦要不然到第六條啦要不然到第六條啦我的意思是這樣啦我們先回到第五條因為我覺得第五條是有機會大家這樣子OK的好不好再回到第五條這樣會不會OK"},{"start":9779.986,"end":9780.167,"text":"請換救援"},{"start":9783.906,"end":9811.438,"text":"不好意思请问刚刚内政部发给我们的这个纪念日节日跟中央目的事业主管机关合订之日是你们目前已经有的吗对这是我目前有然后那个有打一个信号的就下面有附注的地方就是现行纪念日跟实施办法所定的就实际有做字比较小请大家看一下好可是因为就是内政部发的这一张等于是目前有的比我们新要修进法律的还多耶"},{"start":9812.538,"end":9829.525,"text":"是 都很多耶我剛說的這兩倍就是留學員的部分是33個那我們是100個上升到法律位階之後反而變少了那這樣對目前已經核定的這些百公百業跟所有的宗教也不太尊重耶"},{"start":9830.345,"end":9850.397,"text":"我覺得這是現在要討論的點就是所有的職業別有這麼多百公百業然後所有的宗教別也有這麼多各式各樣多元的宗教那我們也都非常尊重那甚至是目前內政部已經合併下來的職業別就已經這麼多了然後結果我們變成法律反而變少怎麼辦我先請大家回想一下上個禮拜我們在討論第11條的時候"},{"start":9858.274,"end":9880.675,"text":"好 第十一條我們在討論第十一條 第十一條我們本來說第三條跟第五條規定以外有特殊意義值得慶祝的相關等等節日與紀念日得由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關以辦法定之那個時候大家的結論是什麼大家還記得嗎是沒有這一條也可以公告所以不管我們有沒有把它放進去這些都會存在而且一樣罩長可以公告沒有這個問題啊"},{"start":9882.298,"end":9902.738,"text":"沒有這個問題啊好不好那現在只是覺得說你有沒有必要把每一個全部都放進來我覺得其實不用我覺得其實不用因為你這樣子第一個你會法條去看哇靠 跟一本書一樣對不對第二個是應該要以比較重要的還是有一個先後次序嘛對不對其他多了詳細的就放在這張裡面就好不影響現況啊不是啊如果沒有公告也能"},{"start":9904.339,"end":9910.465,"text":"主席既然上一次開會都已經充分討論了今天應該就是把這個確定下來那如果今天又要再回到原點的話上次不是白開會了這樣很前後矛盾不是嗎"},{"start":9927.898,"end":9941.325,"text":"你無所適從耶 到底我的節日還在不在為此修一個剛剛好呢因為本來他們都還是可以公告你今天修後不修他們都還是可以公告但是會影響放假現在放假的版本都沒有在放這幾天的嘛好不好 來 鎮店長委員來 待會張榮路委員 謝謝第一個"},{"start":9956.696,"end":9984.999,"text":"內政部整理的這個一大片的並沒有在現行的節日紀念日的辦法裡面並沒有在現行的法規裡面並沒有這是第一個我要特別跟大家報告非常謝謝召委能夠安排不斷的安排今天的審查會因為中華民國"},{"start":9986.65,"end":10014.124,"text":"政府現在所放的所有的節日或是紀念日的放假或是或是慶祝都是違法的啦好我來說哈現在的內政部所定的這個這個辦法按照行政程序法的規定必須要有法律的授權"},{"start":10015.922,"end":10042.278,"text":"行政程序法明定行政程序法是什么时候开始实施呢民国90年1月1号依照行政程序法的规定所有的法规命令办法就是法规命令法规命令必须要有法律的授权所以我们现在这个办法现行的办法是没有法律的授权是违法的"},{"start":10043.311,"end":10063.051,"text":"所以我們現在要把它合法化我幫你整理一下啦然後也回應一下部長剛剛的顧慮啦就是說萬一這一張沒有通通寫進去哪一天如果想要這一張又放假的時候很麻煩但如果這一張又放假的時候以今天現在我們新立法的過程中要放的節日假日在各委員的版本裡面都沒有在這一張裡面嘛"},{"start":10063.962,"end":10077.65,"text":"所以沒有衝突嘛如果未來要增加的時候就一起修嘛哪一天譬如說這裡面其中燕光師傑要放假好了你就再把它修在裡面就好啦這是可以被處理的事情啦好不好所以我們還是回到主題還是微微還有意見嗎不是啦"},{"start":10079.071,"end":10106.184,"text":"既然在修這個法了那些像這些什麼藥師節什麼就都不見了是不是要等到等一下你聽我講完你聽我講完要等到主管機關他提出來那他才是對不對所以我們今天的修法的過程會讓很多節日消失現在在討論是這個問題節日不會消失很多節日消失要等到這些主管機關再提出來說這些是不是節日"},{"start":10106.764,"end":10128.838,"text":"不然這裡是主管這裡是這裡才是節日這樣你沒有放進來我們現在是討論這個問題我這樣子我今天就有一個想法出來啦會不會我們今天修完我們再把那個叫出來把那個那個那個我們在最後來了拉到最下面好我們假設現在28馬上29這個陣列一個其他有目的事的主管機關公告之節日這樣好不好概括條款嘛我們用這樣方式處理可不可以來張王路召委喔沒有齁"},{"start":10136.946,"end":10153.071,"text":"我們大家想一下你現在節日我們現在裡面有放什麼警察節軍人節什麼國際醫師節什麼護理師節我們目前有放這些但還有其他百公百業他們現在有訂定的"},{"start":10153.951,"end":10171.598,"text":"我們沒有放進去我跟你講我們內政委員會我們的裡面就有很多的這一些人也沒有各行各業也沒有放進去我個人是覺得你節日放進去跟你要不要放假我覺得這是"},{"start":10172.865,"end":10200.698,"text":"就算我們的邏輯這是這是沒有差的沒有差的好在沒有差的情況之下對不對啊其實就是把它列進去而已啊就把它列進去啊我們各行各業我們都有尊重啊你也是法條把它訂了很多節日而已啊這個大家思考一下這樣子我認為這個方向也是可以大家想一下的"},{"start":10205.475,"end":10218.008,"text":"我們為了醫事的效率我們又很怕這個剛剛大家都其實都很擔心沒完沒了然後重點都沒有討論到對不對 一天到晚在自己房打賺概括條款好不好用這樣的方式處理這樣是不是就都有法律定位了"},{"start":10219.96,"end":10240.04,"text":"部長請謝謝報告召委跟各位是這樣子原來的劉衛寧的版本就是5至2裡面把它拿掉但是現在現行了現行還沒有法制化之前就是我們內政部跟目的事業主管機關譬如說剛剛提到藥師姐或者燕光師姐就是我們跟衛福部一起"},{"start":10241.241,"end":10250.688,"text":"不能說講好就好了我們還要發到政府公報裡面去但是未來如果法制化按照紐委員版本的話就是這些部會自己去訂不用經過內政部部會自己訂"},{"start":10256.701,"end":10278.866,"text":"目的事業主管機關譬如說衛福部自己定他的節日司法院自己定自己的節日監察院定自己的節日這是這樣子的一個思考邏輯那這樣子就是會回歸到我剛剛所說的你一定連動到那你要不要放假那如果沒有的話你變成弱化他的節日的意義的話就變成說這些部會只是公告現在有這個活動"},{"start":10280.006,"end":10302.282,"text":"有藥師節的活動有司法師節的活動所以在法律的明定上面會有這個問題那也就是我們剛剛所說的如果你會覺得說以後我們修法再把它這些陸陸續續加進去但是修法的過程確實會比現在來得冗長沒有說由內政部跟目的事業主管機關直接對外公告那刊登政府公報就可以了以上"},{"start":10305.918,"end":10311.603,"text":"所以部長你覺得這個東西通通要經過內政部來處理嗎現在就是要經過內政部所以才會有我們所說的100個節日的這個部分那未來的話就會發散出去每個部會都可以自己去公告"},{"start":10324.974,"end":10340.093,"text":"你的意思是說按照現在這個所謂的概括條款的解釋實際上執行的成果嗎那你覺得29條可以怎麼修正如果你覺得要乾脆放出去還是你要在內政部管我覺得我們可以討論一下因為我們在剛剛修紀念日的時候就是條列式"},{"start":10341.284,"end":10356.382,"text":"那沒有蓋跨市剛剛在紀念日所以我們覺得節日的話用這樣的方式會比較奇特而且如果你把它寫成中央目的事業主管機關就不是內政部了我如果改成由主管機關匯商各目的事業主管機關那就回到五字二條啊對啊 回到五字二條好不好"},{"start":10358.371,"end":10361.955,"text":"我們覺得不是太好不是太好的理由就是說如果萬一有些新的節日的話沒有像我們原來的那個彈性很快很大我們只要我剛提到譬如說我們個藥師節還沒有對外公告那只要衛福部跟內政部講好"},{"start":10378.334,"end":10393.669,"text":"這就刊登政府公報就可以了這是我們的實施辦法那現在變成實施法的話有一個藥師節要放假這件事情變成內政部要送到立法院來三讀通過以後才會放到這個法條裡面我現在講除非你要把它列進去嘛你現在就是要列進去要做法"},{"start":10395.23,"end":10412.797,"text":"合訂那個如果你是有我現在講是概括條款的部分可不可以處理嘛我現在就是說合訂的部分難免掛一漏萬嘛所以要有概括條款去處理剩下的東西嘛是如果你不相信我講的部分你可以問一下法務部這個合訂的部分的話一定要經過我們立法院的刪除才可以啊"},{"start":10413.137,"end":10434.949,"text":"不好意思這個剛剛內政部有一個114年紀念日節日及中央目的事業主管機關核定之日那你們列的裡面打信號的你在底下就有講說本表打信號的是現行紀念日及節日實施辦法鎖定之紀念日及節日那我們就把這個打信號"},{"start":10435.569,"end":10460.721,"text":"我們今天不是列了嗎就改成打信號的以後就這個我們今天這個法通過以後就把這個打信號的改為就是信號的是我們那個叫做紀念日及節日實施條例所定之紀念日及節日那這樣就完全跟現行的沒有影響啊所以我們今天只要大家定的OK那就跟你過去實施都沒有關都沒有影響啊"},{"start":10461.977,"end":10478.631,"text":"就也回答一下那個剛剛幾位委員的這個疑問嘛召委請裁示這個等於現行就是這樣啊是啊我們現在要慢慢把顧好像不是這樣喔部長你說清楚一下好像不是這樣好 法務部說明一下吧"},{"start":10493.059,"end":10508.728,"text":"主席如果照剛剛主席所提的就是由各目的事業主管機關去定那就是一個授權等於是大院授權出去由目的事業主管機關來處理那剛剛那個部長這邊提的就是"},{"start":10510.429,"end":10531.304,"text":"這是一個直行面的問題啦就是直接授權給各目的事業主管機關到底他們在主管機關的角度是不是有自愛難選的地方就這兩個不同的機制嘛一個是比如說由主管機關像現在的十字辦法它是由主管機關跟目的事業主管機關去匯商嘛那剛剛主席所念的這個版本就是"},{"start":10531.784,"end":10557.272,"text":"直接授權出去了由各目的事業主管機關去審酌訂定這是兩個不同的授權模式啦但是那基本就是大院認為說除了本法訂的之外那有一些其他的就用授權的方式由主管機關去處理大概差異像在這個地方而已好 謝謝部長所以我還是要請問劉部長你覺得到底要會商"},{"start":10558.632,"end":10582.38,"text":"公告或者是會商核定還是說直接授權這我們要了解一下行政機關的想法對我們來講執行面的部分如果還是由內政部的話那就是本來5-2的部分就是目的事業主管機關要會商有關機關來訂定這個節日那個部分就是授權是授權變成兩個部會要同意但是我所說的我還是擔心是聯動的條款"},{"start":10583.92,"end":10601.581,"text":"譬如說我還是要用移民節啦我們沒有移民沒有移民部未來可能會有新住民署那我們會有國際移民節那國際移民節要放假這一天的話是由內政部幫他公告說放假就好還是我們要送到立法院來說要放假"},{"start":10602.542,"end":10630.044,"text":"要放假的部分在節日堅持要審查完畢之後你沒有辦法這樣直接切割開來第一個這個節日的話呢他有紀念活動都沒有錯可是你如果你剛又授權那我把移民日拿掉那又授權到時候有個新的法律新的那個節日出來那有的人主張要放假這件事情還要送到部長部長我跟你說明一下放假的條文規範在第四條跟第六條嘛哪些節日可以放假規範第四條哪些節日可以放假規範第六條"},{"start":10630.965,"end":10645.934,"text":"如果他要放假就要修這兩條啊對不對但是你沒辦法你沒辦法第三條第四條第五條第六條都保留跟脫鉤我們就不曉得這個邏輯思考在哪裡你要有一貫性啊所以我現在非常希望可以達成共識不就是這樣嗎對不對"},{"start":10649.158,"end":10668.56,"text":"你現在剛剛民進黨這邊提出來的問題是這麼一堆對不對沒有被放進去會不會不公平會不會有掛一漏萬嘛那為了擔心掛一漏萬其實按照現行的制度他本來就可以自己公佈然後約定成熟變成大家習慣的價值其實本來就OK但如果大家希望說大概完整一點再圓滿一點我們就要加一個概括條款嘛那大家到底同不同意這麼做"},{"start":10670.549,"end":10683.321,"text":"因為我覺得如果不加其實不加也可以加看怎麼寫其實都可以因為都不影響執行嘛因為實際上執行進到深水區就是要放假你就一定要列在上面而且跟著第二條一起修嘛其實是這樣子嘛 對不對請你加概括條款可以解決部長說的問題嗎我剛聽的是好像沒有辦法解決呢"},{"start":10694.687,"end":10713.906,"text":"好像沒有辦法解決跟張委員報告一下那個節日如果按照原來劉委員的版本的話那就寫個其他由中央目的事業主管機關合訂嘛那這個部分就變成不是內政部主管對所以請部長提出那是不是請部長提出你覺得要怎麼好改主管機關是不是更好"},{"start":10718.769,"end":10738.954,"text":"我們不要幫忙來決定司法失節因為這裡面不是只有行政系統我們還有司法系統說不定還有考試院節所以用這樣的方式的話變成是給內政部太大的權利因為我們原來政府公告出去的時候他只是訂定節日這個節日只有做一些活動"},{"start":10739.694,"end":10757.357,"text":"根據他們的藥師或是司法師或者是律師只有這樣所以我剛才一再提到說你的邏輯如果一致的話我們沒有意見但是邏輯如果不一致的話有可能紀念日是紀念日的處理方式節日是節日的處理方式那這樣子我們在執行上面就會碰到困擾"},{"start":10758.078,"end":10784.068,"text":"譬如說我們剛剛在處理有關紀念日的時候就沒有給內政部有任何的空間紀念日就是這個樣子有歷史的定義有這個我們在那個處理有關不同族群的定義那已經訂定了所以這個叫條列式但你現在這是叫概括承受式那這兩種不同的部分就是我所說的那你最後的放假日到底要放假幾天放假日一定要在不是不是您聽我講紀念日要放假幾天你們已經討論了"},{"start":10785.769,"end":10804.63,"text":"節日要放假幾天變成是你概劃給我們做決定的話沒有概劃這是第六條才會討論啊是節日要放假哪幾天是第六條明明啊但是它無法脫鉤它無法脫鉤你可以這樣講就是說由中央目的事業主管機關合併的節日我講的概劃是不影響前面我想第29前面第28還是在嘛"},{"start":10807.753,"end":10833.685,"text":"我的意思是說由中央目的事業主管機關核定的這個日什麼日什麼日什麼日就要跟放假日要脫鉤處理目前為止所有的版本都是脫鉤的狀態但是麻煩寫清楚麻煩可以寫得比較清楚主席我試著了解看看是不是兩方這樣的狀況就是因為部長這邊應該是擔心的是說就是到後面的放假的狀態"},{"start":10835.126,"end":10859.929,"text":"會因為這邊前面變成是一個不確定嘛那我覺得現在是不是這樣因為既然這個我們已經就是將近八成九成OK了嘛就跟剛剛紀念日一樣八成九成OK了嘛那您剛剛願意把那一條就再放一下再放一下的意思不是不處理而是說那反正三四五六這個就是一打包一塊的所以我們就先保留一下沒有到喊主席現在已經拍板喊確定"},{"start":10861.55,"end":10881.574,"text":"那所以我們現在是不是就是也前進到八九成了那這條是不是就先放這樣然後我們可以看看其他的那這樣子的話也許部長的確實他的擔心也不是沒有道理啊啊你說的說啊那個是後面不是沒有道理嗎這個有道理好那我們放下第六條節日的放假我跟大家一樣啊報告好對第六條基本上我覺得是寫的蠻清楚的啦寫的是蠻清楚的"},{"start":10892.039,"end":10905.135,"text":"那比起現行的狀況啦齁國民黨黨團的版本是增加小年夜嘛好那民眾黨黨團因為剛剛移民日是放在節日嘛對不對所以民眾黨團希望放移民日高清委員有想法嗎針對節日放假的部分"},{"start":10909.54,"end":10925.138,"text":"放假的部分就以現行來說呢我們是原住民是一天那在不管是已經撤案的吳麗華的版本或者是已經撤案的陳寅版本或者是以前的原住民的立法委員都希望三天"},{"start":10926.059,"end":10954.271,"text":"所以呢在第六條裡面我在這邊我的提案也是希望能夠三天那跟這個節日是這個三天呢是由這個園民會他們來跟各族群部落談定了以後我們再公告好不好謝謝好所以高靖遠的意思是希望歲時計增加到三天嘛對不對好這重點是放在這個地方嘛那我剛剛補充除了小年夜之外還有那個勞動節的全國放假啦好我們也寫在裡面來張宏祿召委有請"},{"start":10956.903,"end":10981.221,"text":"小年夜放假齁 我個人齁 我上次也講了我覺得 我比較不認為小年夜放假啦因為目前本來小年夜就有放假了現在本來就是都有放假了那你又把它用成小年夜放假 我覺得沒有必要你如果真的要放假 我還是覺得是大年初四還比較有合理性"},{"start":10983.142,"end":10997.407,"text":"因為你本來就是已經規定彈性放假小年就已經放假了你這樣子第一個讓這個行政機關他去調整放假第一個好處理第二個這樣子你也比較符合"},{"start":10999.368,"end":11023.883,"text":"我們一般人民他已經習慣了好幾年這樣子的而且如果過年你往後延一天你反而可以紓解這個交通因為你回鄉的小年月放假已經紓解了那你要返回工作崗位的如果你往後放一天那反而可以紓解交通我覺得這要有不同的思考大家看一下"},{"start":11027.382,"end":11052.799,"text":"好 謝謝徐清河人我不知道因為我已經很久我都沒有在管假日但是就我了解小年夜線沒有放假它是因為補假你要補班喔它本身不是假日喔所以現在放假它就不用補班囉所以大家要思考一下這個問題我剛剛有確認一下因為我已經當民意代表以後我都沒有假日了所以我剛剛但是我有確認小年"},{"start":11053.82,"end":11075.225,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 所以小年夜是沒有放假的喔那現在如果改成假日 大家就不用補班了好 謝謝不是 我跟你講齁現在是調 我剛剛已經講了 調整放假本來就都有調整放假 雖然要補班所以我認為 你現在去動這個小年夜你還不如把它放在大年初四我覺得這樣子"},{"start":11076.465,"end":11100.237,"text":"反而會比較好你還是一樣你放小年夜跟簡單講啦放小年夜跟放大年初四我認為以台灣的現行的制度然後跟這個過年的這個你放在初四比放在小年夜更好因為小年夜除夕然後在初一這樣子我跟你講你往後我覺得我覺得"},{"start":11104.428,"end":11108.09,"text":"這我替你做不用講那麼白啦聽懂嗎 我知道你的意思你放在出事"},{"start":11127.916,"end":11152.43,"text":"我覺得至少到目前為止這一條的討論是非常有建設性的大家都有各自的想法大家都有各自的想法我們消化一下因為到最後三四五六難免要一起處理啦來我們美惠姐講完之後我們第七條把它處理完再來回頭主席在這裡我要請博定剛才所問的說移民節給休困一天嘛"},{"start":11153.717,"end":11161.227,"text":"第二點就是說 剛才的小年夜 還是小時候因為我們就是都會去休息 卡住 拜六禮拜因為拜五休息 要補駕"},{"start":11170.711,"end":11182.062,"text":"我們如果補價補太多是外賣給賣市啦如果沒有補價是對我們這裡的企業又不行啦跟這種的問題說實在我也很煩惱所以說在過年這一票因為一般我們票都票要賠三年嘛"},{"start":11194.377,"end":11195.439,"text":"要怎麼可以 何時可以好 有什麼好方法因為這幾天就是這樣"},{"start":11206.291,"end":11226.068,"text":"好不好 醫生保證你 狀況有好好的大年夜 跟大年赤子 影響到的報告的問題來 請蘇小霍委員好 我想針對這個人入民族碎石記的這個部分三日假的部分發言"},{"start":11226.849,"end":11240.965,"text":"那我個人在上一次討論的時候我也表達了確實以我們原住民族要去參與這個碎石祭儀的時候有三日的假期真的是對族人朋友是非常的"},{"start":11241.766,"end":11264.521,"text":"好啦這個我們都同意也肯認這樣的方向但是問題是吼這個就牽涉到這個上一次圓明會有跟大家也報告了那這個放假就等同於是雇主要直接是給付三日薪給我們的族人朋友嗎應該是吧不然的話怎麼會叫做放假好那這樣的狀況下其實以"},{"start":11267.823,"end":11290.748,"text":"現行的狀況來講也有很多族人朋友是在從事的工作是比較辛苦的狀況就是一天一天或者是真的會不會影響到工作我想請袁明慧就這個部分再提出來說明一下然後或者是說有什麼想法可以折衷讓大家又可以放假又可以對待的工作處境能夠得到保障因為我覺得"},{"start":11294.309,"end":11320.465,"text":"理想是理想現實是現實有很多狀況是你規定的美意到時候反而是造成了實際執行的困境我覺得這也不好請如實報告讓大家參考主席還有各位委員我想加入剛剛蘇委員所特別提到的那當然現在的稅實際目前已經是保障了假日所以如果放假的話是不扣薪的那已經執行十幾年了"},{"start":11321.038,"end":11345.254,"text":"那這也是彰顯政府對於原住民族文化的支持不再不扣薪而且是一定要放對不對他請了就一定要放嘛一定要放 對所以不過現在增加天數雖然是回應族人的訴求不過我們當然也是如同剛剛蘇委所特別提到的現在還是尚未能考量考慮到整體社會的環境以及實際執行的情形因為族人如果要"},{"start":11346.254,"end":11370.632,"text":"這樣放假三天後必須面臨更多不容忽視的挑戰比如說可能造成原住民在就業勞動市場處於不利的狀況比如說就業機會的衝擊還有族群關係的緊張如果要達成真正的尊重多元促進文化傳承的目標是不是應該要更加注重政策的精細設計跟全面的協商因為如果放假三天增加天數"},{"start":11371.368,"end":11386.702,"text":"所牽涉的層面當然還是有一點廣就陳如剛委員所特別提到因為現在原住民在勞動業比較多他的替代性比較高所以應該要尊重原住民在文化跟實際社會需求尋找一個平衡點"},{"start":11387.759,"end":11415.565,"text":"但副主委我覺得您這樣子講我是給你一個機會來提出你的看法但你不能在回答的時候都變成說尊照蘇偉仁的看法蘇偉仁其實是想要三天假的只是問題是現在社會有困境當然你人民會你必須也要一起來想怎麼樣讓社會能夠朝著有三天假的方向前去我知道困境我也能夠體諒所以我們願意說看怎麼做"},{"start":11416.705,"end":11440.905,"text":"這是也你必須要提出來的不然的話我們當然會覺得說三天就很棒了對不對謝謝 請高清委員曾副主委請問一下那個稿子是行政院給你的稿子還是園民會的立場我們園民會自己在上個禮拜自己在討論檢討那你跟我們主委員的想法跟蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":11442.702,"end":11471.739,"text":"媳婦 原住民的媳婦的想法好像不太一樣你這番話在聽到族人的耳裡我們會對人民會非常的失望好嗎我希望你再把原住民實際上所面臨到的問題跟困境麻煩一下再說清楚而不是說社會觀感或者是社會上的然後就業勞動市場會影響到我們的族人"},{"start":11473.683,"end":11484.701,"text":"我會接受這樣的說法謝謝好為了因應這個碎石祭的假期的確族人都認為一天不足因為現在目前的"},{"start":11485.356,"end":11506.945,"text":"整個碎石祭的活動的確已經縮短像現在的各族群的碎石祭大概都會放在期間然後由部落自己去決定哪一天那因為定為一天為放假日所以很多部落在做決定的時候都會放在禮拜五或者禮拜一希望能夠把假日禮拜六禮拜天也把它放作"},{"start":11507.672,"end":11530.849,"text":"是一起回來參與部落的文化碎石祭所以通常來講大概也都會有三天的時間來因應社會的需求那當然我們目前的確這個部分也是部落族人一直在希望能夠延長的部分因為目前不管是前期的準備或者是後繼有分前繼後繼等"},{"start":11531.823,"end":11560.97,"text":"那當然因為現在部落為了因應目前一天的時間都會把那一天濃縮在重要的那一天來來配合整個活動好所以總副主委您是同意我的提案嗎我的提案是三天包括雖然已經撤案的吳麗華委員也撤案的陳寅委員他們都是講三天所以現在保留到現在協商的條文只有我的條文所以你是支持還是不支持請問"},{"start":11563.057,"end":11577.175,"text":"因為我們也會面臨到很多在勞動市場上一些廠商不要再重複這些了啦你不要再重複這些了啦所以我想要在這邊問清楚我們立法委員就是在這邊修法立法而"},{"start":11580.674,"end":11607.27,"text":"大多數的原住民的族人不分勞動市場不分牧師不分我們的這個所有的族人大家都期待三天如果我們的行政院或是民進黨政府不同意三天那你們就勇敢的提出來不同意三天嘛那就勇敢的把吳立華委員跟陳英委員的版本也留在我們立法院嘛為什麼要撤案"},{"start":11609.653,"end":11622.746,"text":"今天就是要放三天跟不放叫三天好不好謝謝我請召委待會就是採釋一下好民住民的部分到底是要放三天還是不放三天謝謝就這麼簡單的一個問題謝謝好大家針對這一條有沒有什麼想法邁委員"},{"start":11632.041,"end":11637.606,"text":"謝謝主席關於就是說我們年夜的部分我是覺得是說因為每一個人都要回去過年所以這個都是大塞車如果是我們小年夜去放假的話是讓大家因為這個是以我們現在修法的是民俗傳統大家都要回去拜公嘛就是團圓"},{"start":11656.221,"end":11659.083,"text":"所以我覺得是說小年夜要去放假我覺得是合理的第一個第二個的話我們是族群融合包容所以我們現在的我們的祭祀日是說我們的這個就是"},{"start":11671.813,"end":11690.202,"text":"岁时就是原住民的原住民不同族群他们定的时间但是大家也是一样传统希望我们的族群的人要回来一天但是一天的话当好这是不是节日又匆匆忙忙可能见个面就走了所以没办法"},{"start":11690.802,"end":11712.155,"text":"所以我们希望这个是不同族群去放假我觉得三天是比较合理的就是让他们可以真正的去纪念这个还有就是关于移民节这个部分呢因为我们是要求全国每一个县市都要去庆祝这个移民日还有我们台湾是一个"},{"start":11712.675,"end":11738.162,"text":"移民国家所以这个移民日的话有放假的话我们是不管是新住民也好或者是其他国家的来到台湾有很多我们台湾的国定假日是我们的移民移民的新住民也好移工也好乔生等等他们不见得是在我们的国定假日"},{"start":11739.702,"end":11757.622,"text":"或者我们的节日可以去放假的所以我们希望说我们是多元的族群又是多元的国家所以我们希望说这个我们要庆祝以外希望大家就是有一个就是全国可以放假不是要求大家办但是"},{"start":11759.744,"end":11781.115,"text":"每个人都不能放假的话就变成是是这个节日是没办法说放假所以我们希望说要提高我们的公民对我们的全球的移民的现在的认识还有大家都说我们要去包容多认识据说全国光放假的话就是要希望就是族群各"},{"start":11782.396,"end":11784.638,"text":"的族群去認識不同的文化的節慶對我們的移民的權利還有保護也強調說我們的移民社會對經濟啊這些的貢獻所以我們希望就是大家共同來去就是認同這一天也讓大家可以慶祝"},{"start":11805.077,"end":11825.789,"text":"也可以一起共同去放假就是族群包容就是要互相去認識才能才能達到這樣的共識還有說我們移民署我們已經有移民署也有立法嘛新住民基本法有立法未來也有一個新住民發展署所以說不一定是立法才有假日剛才我們內政部長說什麼這個立法什麼這才有假日不是啊但是沒有立法之前也有這樣子的假日啊"},{"start":11833.633,"end":11857.14,"text":"所以我覺得這個是要能夠爭取就是移民日就是不同的族群有不同的族群的紀念日以上謝謝好謝謝麥立正委員下面請李博士委員好同意啦台灣當然是一個很包容新住民那可以大家一起來生活的一個國家啦那要不要放假我覺得這個讓社會來多一點討論"},{"start":11859.417,"end":11877.622,"text":"我想請這個勞動部的次長來我問一下剛剛那個原民會的回答我覺得我們更理性來討論一下我們原住民提出來的這個問題我們現在原住民工作保障法第12條的規定的內容是什麼次長"},{"start":11880.663,"end":11904.969,"text":"如果國內的員工超過100人應該有1%的原住民最少要聘用一個原住民對不對事業規模的行業的限制那如果沒有呢沒有就要繳代金代金繳多少這個部分是原民會會收取來你繼續問"},{"start":11909.369,"end":11926.353,"text":"那個 我都沒有記你沒有記 我跟你講啊就是請的跟我的薪水差不多啦就是要罰他的薪水 要繳繳我們有一個基金中和發展基金的就業基金你要交給他啦是不是這樣對 相當於一個人的薪水然後交貸金給我們然後在我們的一個"},{"start":11933.306,"end":11960.272,"text":"一個中和發展基金一個就業基金這一條會不會影響到如果多放兩天雇主他寧願繳貸金會不會造成這個影響我覺得這個你們跟勞動部要去做一個仔細的評估喔這個就是我們希望有一些考量的地方因為可能這個在就業上的衝擊雇主就會對這個部分有一些然後又變成在法律上有一些明定必須要禁用原住民"},{"start":11960.797,"end":11981.802,"text":"對啊 我講的就是 雇主他可能合法他沒有禁用原住民 我覺得我們當然都覺得他不對 他要繳代金但是這樣雇主他會有他的選擇性嘛所以這個我覺得必須要跟勞動部要跟這個國內所有的這些一定規模以上的企業要做一定的討論喔這個好 謝謝博弈委員 我們請高進委員發言"},{"start":11983.468,"end":12010.969,"text":"立法委員有立法委員的工作我還是在這邊要提醒一下中副主委該罰錢就該罰錢因為原住民族在這個土地上我們已經被剝削太多了轉型正義沒有我們什麼都沒有我們當談到我們的原住民族的族人要文化傳承"},{"start":12012.577,"end":12035.508,"text":"要甚至於是我們的過年我們希望我們的族人們能夠聚在一起尤其讓都會施了根的蘭花的這些族人能夠方便回到家裡面去傳承文化 去學習母語去知道他的靈魂在哪一個地方難道不應該定一個"},{"start":12037.269,"end":12065.548,"text":"這樣子的一個日期嗎而當我們訂這樣的日期的時候我還是要講到只要中華民國的立法院有原住民族的立法委員不分哪一個政黨全部都支持希望能夠放假三天而我們現在用行政命令把它已經弄到法的位階了難道不應該給原住民族一個轉型正義的機會嗎"},{"start":12066.909,"end":12069.189,"text":"轉型正義條例沒有原住民族正義條例的那個轉型的那個遺址沒有原住民族連現在要放三天假也還扯到勞動部我希望這場的委員們請你們體諒一下請你們也理解一下原住民族的處境我們是這塊土地的主人"},{"start":12091.653,"end":12103.079,"text":"一直在講說如何的對原住民轉型正義如何的能夠對原住民族能夠在他們自己的土地上面受到保障那麼就立法吧我剛剛講過了撤案的吳立華委員也是堅持三天的撤案的陳雲委員也是堅持三天的"},{"start":12114.065,"end":12126.248,"text":"现在的其他政党的立法委员包括105年以前的立法委员现在已经不在的立法委员不在立法院的立法委员也一直不断的提出坚持三天"},{"start":12127.912,"end":12154.18,"text":"我現在希望大家用同理心好嗎不要扯太多就是願不願意放三天假我也希望原民會你們堅持你們的立場你們是原住民族的委員會當然主委是行政院派任的但是中副主委你也是排灣族人曾主委也是排灣族人你應該非常清楚知道原住民的處境以上我希望這是我最後的發言謝謝"},{"start":12155.5,"end":12181.088,"text":"好 謝謝高精素美委員這個我自己的版本跟國民黨團的版本也都支持三天了好 看起來這一題好像也還是沒有什麼共識啦我們先進第七條好不好然後我們第七條處理完之後三四五六我們休息協商好不好好 第七條那個有關於懸掛國企因為這個是從辦法裡面延伸出來的條文啦我覺得爭議應該不大啦那上一次有一個很有趣的就是說有一些日子要降半旗的"},{"start":12181.508,"end":12201.399,"text":"那跟這個所謂的懸掛國旗的說法有沒有衝突那我查過之後是沒有衝突的因為你要降半旗之前你得先把國旗升起來所以即便有條文名列要懸掛國旗你也是先升再降所以跟降半旗的規定是沒有衝突那我想既然這個最大的疑慮已經被解決了是不是大家我們就照這個條文來做通過請大家表達意見好不好來文字底底下第七條因為這個大家的意見都一樣"},{"start":12210.39,"end":12227.075,"text":"報告委員我們還是主張因為這裡面只有可不可以增加一個第7條的第3款就是和平紀念日因全國下半期一日相關機關團體舉行紀念活動可以把它增加進去我覺得如果要特別規定不影響效果我認為是OK的好嗎"},{"start":12233.221,"end":12255.812,"text":"有沒有特別要降半級它一樣有強度的問題嘛所以我們才會說連動性很強啊部長如果現在如果沒有明寫其實是某些層面是給你行政機關彈性嘛那我想部長你要提和平紀念日一定是特別重要所以你想把它寫出來彰顯它的重要性我們是根據現在的這個版本啦但是剛剛如果"},{"start":12256.612,"end":12274.106,"text":"對現在紀念日你增加那麼多以後也許有些紀念日是要下半期的那就要增三進去也許我們應該用這樣子的一個稍微有一點彈性的方式會比較好對文字上法條文字上是這樣沒有錯"},{"start":12278.754,"end":12292.885,"text":"這樣子我提醒一下就是說如果他有特別重要大家有共識的可以這樣處理沒有關係但是如果說到最後是又變成大鍋飯所有東西又三五十個節日要這樣搞我們的法條宣言這樣真的是好的嗎"},{"start":12293.939,"end":12321.428,"text":"真的是好的嗎我想請大家思考一下如果他特別重要寫出來大家同意那就讓他過關如果很有可能他會有其他也要比照辦理那我建議不要放我們還是按照原條文因為不影響因為不管怎麼樣先升再降這在裡面這是不衝突的好不好大家有沒有想法我是建議原條文啦好不好因為你如果寫這個是為了後面還要衍生這個東西會比較麻煩啦"},{"start":12322.589,"end":12350.14,"text":"我們光是三四五六我們頭就很大了對不對 不用再多一條啦好不好 是不是拜託大家我們這條按照原條原宣證通過可以嗎等一下啦等一下 等一下 等一下報告委員 報告委員我想喔 我還是一樣啦就是我們的想法是一樣就是如果你沒有寫下半期的話其實就是可下半期可不下半期啦因為我們現在當然是全國的共識性很強但是過了兩三年以後覺得無所謂反正法條裡面沒有這樣規範"},{"start":12351.82,"end":12371.105,"text":"那所以我是覺得說無論怎麼樣和平紀念日或有些其他的什麼紀念日應該全國下半期我認為還是希望把它放到條文裡面這樣子相關的機關會比較好遵循所以你的邏輯是這一天特別重要嗎不是我不是邏輯是這樣我的意思是說更何況未來這個法律也不是只有"},{"start":12372.145,"end":12400.661,"text":"內政部要執行因為未來你有授權其他的這個目的事業主管機關所以可能要譬如說和平紀念日現在舉辦的活動可能是教育部可能是文化部也不一定是內政部所以可能要勞煩是不是各位再思考清楚一點現在大家很明確約定署程要這樣辦就是228嘛對不對那我們就先這樣寫先這樣過好不好如果後面有那個大家說後面再修法嘛好不好"},{"start":12402.944,"end":12405.126,"text":"先這個版本先過那個下半期現在是現在就這樣現在會降半級啦是按照現行的規定好那我們就知道這個版本通過 大家有意見嗎"},{"start":12426.801,"end":12438.238,"text":"來 高經緯我覺得很好啊大家依照中華民國這塊土地上啊滿好的啊 這個國家叫中華民國啊滿好的 同意好 那我們就修正通過了好不好第七條的部分"},{"start":12440.34,"end":12466.306,"text":"好請補充至於這裡第二項因為前面第一項是寫紀念日第二項又把紀念日擺進去那我們是建立第二項直接改成節日就好了節日得由各機關團體學校依其性質舉行紀念慶祝或民俗等相關活動第一項是規定紀念日的紀念方式第二項是規定節日的方式我們是覺得這樣比較不會前後矛盾"},{"start":12469.56,"end":12479.632,"text":"各集團團體沒有啦我覺得他第一款的概念是要是有關於國旗的說法吧是不是國旗"},{"start":12485.42,"end":12503.735,"text":"我反而覺得你現在這樣子就改的有點奇怪因為我們現在第七條應該仍然是就整部法律是紀念日集結日這樣一起來處理他只是第一項特別在講說紀念日的時候有一些比較特定的方式"},{"start":12504.395,"end":12531.323,"text":"那其他的話呢是這個這個不管是紀念日或者是節日都還是可以依循依循他的特殊性質去做相關的狀況因為有一些紀念日我們我們現在保留的紀念日裡面我們現在在做紀念日裡面也還是可以除了跟國旗升降還有這個這個這三四三個特別列出來的有"},{"start":12533.649,"end":12560.644,"text":"因為紀念日有第四款如果增加第三款有第四款的其他紀念日所以我們是覺得說那第一項就整個規範紀念日的部分那第二項就整個規範節日的部分好 我聽起來我覺得還我們再看一下 不好意思其他紀念日得益性質群紀念活動節日 你等於把節日這樣拖出來講對不對得益和愿意及性質第一項都講紀念日 第二項講節日啦對 它的邏輯是這樣啦"},{"start":12563.168,"end":12572.095,"text":"我覺得這樣還蠻合理的啊我問一下李博弈委員請現在的那個孔子誕辰紀念日有掛國旗嗎現在有嗎那個內政部都有掛國旗啦各機關都有掛國旗孔子誕辰紀念日學校都有掛國旗學校跟各機關不一樣學校也有"},{"start":12596.064,"end":12611.634,"text":"不是 他們問孔子誕生紀念日有沒有掛國旗啦我們現行的紀念日就有掛國旗一旗啦 他一旗姓子 OK啦德游各機關團體級學校 一旗姓子 可以啊"},{"start":12615.816,"end":12619.359,"text":"應該各機關團體得 各機關團體 節日逗號各機關團體及學校得一期性質吧"},{"start":12638.464,"end":12649.946,"text":"那個 巧慧瑋你可那個我提個概念齁節日逗號各機關團體及學校得依其性質這樣跟上面才是一樣的語法啦是不是"},{"start":12651.667,"end":12666.855,"text":"妳戲就下去以後妳就會覺得現在這文字很奇怪啊因為妳看紀念第一項的話紀念日然後它的主持是會不會是街政府嘛主體嘛對啊中央級地方政府嘛然後到第三項和平紀念日的時候還有相關機關團體欸什麼叫做相關機關團體這全國都是需要的啊為什麼是什麼叫做相關"},{"start":12673.178,"end":12694.737,"text":"對啊你到時候相關又要吵很多然後呢再來的話到下面節日的時候又變成是各機關團體學校對啊那你這個切分一個法條裡面主持就有三個這不是也蠻奇怪的嗎而且還分配在不同的位階上面"},{"start":12698.63,"end":12719.087,"text":"對阿然後你第一項的第四款裡面其他紀念日得一性質舉行紀念活動你那這樣你這個主持又是誰你三和四的主持又不一樣我覺得你這整個文字因為時序的關係其實蠻不通順的耶有沒有好的建議版本張導演"},{"start":12721.704,"end":12747.643,"text":"不是啊 我剛剛一直在看第七條你一開始紀念日中央及地方政府應懸掛國旗其實本來就有懸掛了本來就都有啊我們的中央及地方政府不可能把國旗拿下來每天都有啊那你說你第七條你紀念日的話你是不是應該改成全國各機關"},{"start":12751.4,"end":12765.91,"text":"會不會比較好你只有中央跟地方政府我不知道大家想一下你才可以解決你前後你才可以解決不一樣的"},{"start":12769.008,"end":12788.395,"text":"好 那個這個我請行政機關這部分針對這一條第七條的法條的文字來做一下休息與此同時我們針對三四五六四個條文我們做最後一次的協商我們用二十分鐘的時間做最後一次的協商因為我們總要法條往前走好不好休息二十分鐘"},{"start":12799.056,"end":12814.259,"text":"阿姨我找妳耶我修正我修正我修正一下因為那個現在土豪很好住在國務處才比較有感覺台北沒有感覺那我回去再拍對所以我把它全部都記進去"},{"start":12815.276,"end":12816.997,"text":"前天好多人耶"},{"start":12833.004,"end":12836.325,"text":"那你就回去再煮因為那個效果不一樣"},{"start":12850.149,"end":12863.856,"text":"對啊,還有泥土啦這樣我們就回去他那個帽子我再去跟他要有啊,有謝謝因為我剛想了一下,你在谷土感覺比較"},{"start":12873.221,"end":12874.942,"text":"冰棒冰棒冰棒冰棒"},{"start":12888.609,"end":12907.892,"text":"對,對"},{"start":12908.492,"end":12908.512,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":12943.705,"end":12951.91,"text":"你今天穿今天的襪"},{"start":12953.591,"end":12960.556,"text":"還好啦 這件好暖喔 這件超暖喔 這個很暖這件很暖啊只是在想說你們要什麼時候"},{"start":12981.689,"end":12988.914,"text":"因為連假四天你要考慮一下,因為我怕他們會不高興因為你剛講完以後,你嘲笑趕快過來找他"},{"start":13003.865,"end":13006.026,"text":"就是特定族群的人 只要經驗就好了啊"},{"start":13032.735,"end":13034.156,"text":"我有聽到,我有聽到,我趕快,趕快"},{"start":13059.108,"end":13067.391,"text":"禮拜三是八八十五的連結所以都沒有開原會所以法案的那個呼應還沒有出"},{"start":13085.738,"end":13095.603,"text":"所以司法法治管他的那個其實司法法治就另外判專訪 專案報告啦對 哇 現在就判那個專訪 現在要判你知道嗎 公平的說話"},{"start":13107.209,"end":13112.652,"text":"我們現在沒有放嗎?我不是以為我們平常是放1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、38、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":13128.322,"end":13135.529,"text":"因為大家都喜歡出門拍照小年夜現在在旁邊調皮"},{"start":13143.977,"end":13157.819,"text":"保險放假所以會有補班的問題未來如果想年夜放假就是春夏就是固定五天的話那五天我們的理解就是五天如果是上班日當然就放假可是我們一般正常週休二十五天上班日"},{"start":13158.94,"end":13174.092,"text":"沒有 你現在如果是把它變成春假是五天沒有補假的問題因為你不是用彈性調班的問題那不是沒有補班的問題 那要補假萬一你跨到週末你要補兩天所以我的意思是說未來的春假一定不會只有五天"},{"start":13174.813,"end":13179.759,"text":"所以以後春假不會只有五天所以理論上出事一定會放得到"},{"start":13192.832,"end":13207.261,"text":"如果是小年夜除夕一二三嘛那一定會跨到禮拜六禮拜天你倆跨禮拜六禮拜天他就會補刀出事啦他就會補刀出事嘛啊你放出事跟你講的是一樣啊"},{"start":13209.382,"end":13225.788,"text":"客觀還是一樣啦可是問題是小年月在前有一時候小年月在前你跨到假日政府假日在後面你如果放出事"},{"start":13227.589,"end":13237.418,"text":"跨到週末的時候他會再往後延嘛會被人放到 可能會放到初七之類的但小年齡還是放不到但是你如果放小年齡後來你出事是不是會跨到週末會補嘛這樣其實就有九天啦"},{"start":13245.486,"end":13247.827,"text":"不是 因為你如果是 比如說我除夕是禮拜五"},{"start":14075.492,"end":14086.026,"text":"喔 回來了 台北市都沒有人啦好 報告委員會 我們繼續開會剛剛針對第七條第七條 好 現在行政機關有提出一個建議的版本來 我們秀在螢幕上 那個大家聽"},{"start":14093.422,"end":14094.282,"text":"請問針對文字修正大家有沒有意見"},{"start":14123.363,"end":14123.605,"text":"好還有啊"},{"start":14126.991,"end":14152.74,"text":"趙偉補充說明一下只是補充說明因為這裡面有把學校列進去但是有一些像私立學校或者並不屬於這個台灣教育部所主管譬如說國際學校的部分的話可能就我們就沒有強制性這個沒有辦法了要說明要說明清楚因為我們以前都沒有放學校現在把學校放進去的話當然是可以公立你可以舉出的方法為主好嗎好那我們就修正通告好不好好謝謝"},{"start":14160.762,"end":14175.75,"text":"那這個只是說明一下就是學校他是一個概念性而不是一定是所有的學校因為有些學校並沒有登記失利的不一定或者是其他的外喬學校他也不一定要掛中華民國國旗我是要講這個部分"},{"start":14175.95,"end":14180.672,"text":"主席我尊重你的裁決啦但是我還是覺得說因為確實我們剛剛那個3456嘛還在那一包還在那裡的處理的狀況到底會處理成什麼樣子坦白講現在也還不知道所以我還是主張是連同這一條是一起把它放成是保留沒有含死確定的狀態我認為這樣是比較合理的討論狀態"},{"start":14205.521,"end":14226.802,"text":"我還是要表示我的意見喬委員我是覺得現在文字的修正大家盡量求圓滿是比較有機會通過啦因為如果整包進行協商當然不是不行啦但是整包進行協商的時候它會不會是這麼圓滿的版本就比較難講嘛萬一協商破裂到時候要表決我是希望可以盡量在委員會達成共識的條例我們都達成共識啦是不是請喬委員成全一下"},{"start":14229.551,"end":14251.287,"text":"我知道這個是你行政機關你出來的不是不是我們的見解跟那個蘇委員還有那個可能要請主任秘書講一下就是我們剛所說的現在只有爐裂的是和平紀念日那未來譬如說還有其他的假設假設還有什麼國際人權紀念日的話那就表示這個條文需要再做文字修正所以一併來講這個就是要連動式的保留"},{"start":14251.807,"end":14271.542,"text":"好謝謝那如果要保留的話是不是就恢復原來的版本了要保留就是跟著前面的版本一起啦如果是這樣子的話那就真的就是就開花啦對啊那這樣開花的話啊不然就是要表決嘛對啊我們把它走完13條公佈日這我講這國民黨黨員基本上堅持啦就是公佈日實施啦"},{"start":14281.445,"end":14304.131,"text":"那請問行政機關有沒有問題跟民進黨有沒有問題沒有沒有沒有沒有我覺得這樣不對吧不行不行啦不行不行不行剛剛第七條就開花了我說那不然這樣來表決好了好我們請高經緯人"},{"start":14306.636,"end":14325.574,"text":"一直以來那陣委員會其實我們都非常能夠大家在委員會的時候討論處理那如果貴黨團現在民進黨團很顯然有很多的意見包括之前有很多民進黨委員的提案也都撤案了然後我們現在所討論的是"},{"start":14328.226,"end":14351.487,"text":"國民黨團跟高精素美的提案在這邊討論了這麼多天大家也認識了那麼久我覺得大家就是不拿那個客風也可以啦就是如果說在場的內政委員會的這個民進黨委員你們有一些壓力那麼我們就了解你們的壓力那我們就送黨團協商好不好不要再浪費大家太多的時間好謝謝李博人"},{"start":14358.2,"end":14380.788,"text":"我覺得我們現在討論的是這個不但只有紀念日還有這些放假日那對三四五六七條大家有很多的意見那我們我會比較主張既然要討論多放那麼多天我們多討論一天或多討論兩天也是一個方式讓比如說"},{"start":14382.168,"end":14402.52,"text":"很多剛剛高經委員對於我提出這個園民會跟勞動部這邊要有更多的討論高經委員不高興我說實在我對所有原住民紀念日我都表達尊重但我覺得社會要多一點討論所以我這邊再提出來說是不是我們多討論一天還兩天請高經委員"},{"start":14405.581,"end":14419.147,"text":"回答李博業委員我今天為什麼會對園民會的這個在台上的說法感到憤怒跟不解因為3月17號的時候根據園民會自己的書面報告我念一下給大家聽"},{"start":14420.782,"end":14437.515,"text":"因為各族記憶文化具有其舉行的實踐程序及步驟本會履獲原住民族人普遍反應放假日數不足難以完整的傳承原住民族豐富的記憶文化且"},{"start":14438.075,"end":14461.451,"text":"无法参与部落记忆相关筹备作业等再者多数族人现居都会区单就往返家乡或部落所在地急需半日是一天的车程放假日数影响族人参与的意愿故增加税时记忆放假日数不仅可促进各族群文化的发展"},{"start":14468.335,"end":14485.342,"text":"私底下我也一直問原民會3月17號你們的書面說明跟一直以來我們的溝通都覺得放善添加是可以的為什麼到今天原民會就會提出那麼多我說是行政院給你壓力還是你原民會主委自己"},{"start":14485.942,"end":14502.196,"text":"他说自己里面开会我说那你开会总是会有一些结论吧也有一些公文嘛所以呢我现在也正式的请我的呃办公室新闻给原民会请问一下在场的哪几位这个原民会的官员"},{"start":14503.237,"end":14517.4,"text":"你們提出要跟勞動部或是其他委員有一致的想法所以在這裡我覺得園民會其實今天的表現讓我覺得有一點失望那三天假我再一次說明一下"},{"start":14518.968,"end":14542.43,"text":"所有曾經在立法院擔任原住民立法委員不分政黨不分黨派的委員都希望能夠三天從以前一直到現在所以我真的希望大家能夠支持我的版本然後現在跟周委報告一下我們討論了那麼久我們沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":14543.211,"end":14569.127,"text":"然後本來有民進黨的版本也撤案了那今天我們一直在討論花了這麼多的時間我相信召委你的用心所以是不是我們大家也都已經是這麼樣的逐條討論了而且勞工大眾的勞工都期待這個法案能夠趕快上路再者鄭天才委員有講一直以來用行政命令其實是違法的狀況啊"},{"start":14570.868,"end":14588.17,"text":"所以現在我們能夠有一個法源能夠讓他真正的立法大概不是很好嗎所以我希望召委做個材質好不好大家就不要再多的論述以上謝謝好謝謝各位委員這其實我們希望這個今天再多排一點審查其實就是希望可以等到版本嘛"},{"start":14588.47,"end":14617.115,"text":"那針對版本直接達成共識但看起來今天還是很多是一時起意好等等等等一些狀況以至於今天真正關鍵的條文還是沒有有想要推進的進度其實蠻可惜的好我現在手上收到一份民進黨黨團的提案因節日及紀念日紀念日及節日實施條例草案仍有多條文未能達成共識願請本會議令定期繼續審查以求完備不應敬送願會協商好這個顯然大家兩邊的意見是有所分歧的嘛"},{"start":14617.435,"end":14626.823,"text":"我們提案人是我們的民進黨黨團的各位委員那我們就直接來針對這樣子的議案來做處理我們現在針對這個提案我們就採用舉手表決 大家可以嗎好 那贊成民進黨黨團提議請舉手好 六位 反對的請放下 反對請舉手"},{"start":14646.067,"end":14669.995,"text":"1234567好 反對7位所以民進黨黨團提案不通過那我們就照剛剛大家講啦其實大家都很有誠意 也希望趕快但勞工放假不能等啦真的不能等啦好不好那我們就反而還是要往前走因此那我們就我們就現在沒有達成共識的34567跟13條我們就進黨團協商的階段來處理好 那我現在到台上宣讀協商結論請大家稍等"},{"start":14688.514,"end":14702.893,"text":"第一條是修正圖表,其他的第一條"},{"start":14722.722,"end":14724.094,"text":"可以了 可以了 你就写进来吧"},{"start":14725.083,"end":14751.494,"text":"好 現在宣讀協商結論首先第一條修正通過第三條 第四條 第五條 第六條 第七條 第十三條依高金素美委員台灣民眾黨黨團函修正動議牛許廷委員等修正動議及委員會初步審查修正條文並按保留協商 以上請問各位委員剛照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過 請問有異議"},{"start":14754.349,"end":14777.588,"text":"有異議沒有啦沒有好那我們就我請問一下那我們就是保留協商就是全部還是我們討論的那三個對啊就剛剛這幾個就這幾個而已還有我們今天有討論有一些有一些有一些初步的共識我們也會保留下來好不好好謝謝那我們就無異議通過好那我們"},{"start":14780.237,"end":14808.853,"text":"對啊 現在是這樣這個喔好 我們現在做欸 不是啊來來 你有 你有 你說喔 每位有意見嗎 請主席剛剛 我們的寬度的版本你也跟有啊 我們在委員會討論的都有併進來我們剛剛在委員會討論到一半還沒有完全有共識 都會併進來跟您報告一下有我們當然盡量好 那麼我們今日討論事項所列議案今天日及節日實施條"},{"start":14810.851,"end":14823.377,"text":"怎麼了好請主席你再念一次你剛剛說有沒有意義的那個結論一下照剛剛宣讀寫上結論通過大家無意義通過啊寫上的結論啊有意義啊"},{"start":14824.485,"end":14852.271,"text":"你有什麼意義 有哪一部分而且還沒討論完啊 怎麼會沒有意義剛剛你提案已經表決過啦你希望繼續審查你希望繼續審查啊那你說這三四五六條有沒有意義我說還在討論啊 當然有意義不然為什麼要協商我們表決的是要不要再繼續審查我剛剛宣讀的是協商的結論也就是今天三四五六七以及十三因為沒有共識我們保留進入黨內協商的階段沒有共識就是有意義啊所以我說沒有共識要不要再討論一下"},{"start":14855.049,"end":14883.226,"text":"是保留協商啦 進到黨團協商的階段您剛剛有提說需不需要繼續繼續在這邊做審議已經有 已經 你們提案已經表決了嘛那表決沒有通過嘛好不好不是啦我問一下齁李 李柏毅 李柏毅李柏毅委員的意思是說你要保留送協商這件事情他有意義有意義啦 有意義啦可以啦好 有意義那我們就表決吧"},{"start":14884.181,"end":14896.209,"text":"好 有異議我們就表決那贊成照協商結論通過的 請舉手贊成照協商結論 就是我們剛剛宣讀的通過的 請舉手好 贊成者七位反對請舉手反對六位好 那贊成者多數那我們就照剛剛協商結論通過"},{"start":14914.246,"end":14941.882,"text":"那我們就做一下決議討論事項所列議案紀念日及節日實施條例草案等二十五案以併案審查完據拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員需不需經過黨團協商要要 OK就這樣嗎好 本院與院會討論時有本席牛雪婷委員做補充說明審查通過之條文調適引述條文部分文字及相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":14943.921,"end":14955.396,"text":"還是李柏惟比較聰明?我剛才就說...他就...沒有啦,我常常在店裡吃飯的結果我會冷卻啊,他在45分久的店中燒的這盤都燒的啊"}]}},{"id":"16557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16557","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db84f0cb0beb0459e0c45a0f691f4476391c35f50c34d2eafa0d0a1f4e4496ea4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「2025年防洪抗旱計畫」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-31","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-31T08:30:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-31T12:22:00+08:00","duration":13894,"影片長度":"03:51:34","委員發言時間":"08:30:26 - 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委員名單號等23人提出質詢均由農業部部長陳俊濟等"},{"start":1933.402,"end":1934.423,"text":"請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":1950.776,"end":1965.105,"text":"2014年3月17日星期四報告事項邀請國家發展委員會主任委員農業部部長內政部首長財政部首長行政院主席總署首長進行農村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1966.977,"end":1994.29,"text":"國家發展委員會副主任委員彭麗佩及農業部政務次長胡宗一報告後委員陳廷飛等16人提出質詢經由國家發展委員會副主任委員彭麗佩等及其答覆決定1.登記發言委員除不在場者外區域基於發言完畢詢答結束2.委員林黛嬅、邱盈瑩及一代會員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報3.書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內書面答覆並赴資本會上會宣布完畢"},{"start":1999.307,"end":2010.997,"text":"繼續宣讀報告事項邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就二零二五年防洪抗旱計劃進行報告並備諮詢宣布案比請經濟部賴建信次長報告"},{"start":2028.635,"end":2045.991,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好經濟部應邀自委員會進行2025年黃紅抗旱計畫專案報告自感榮幸請提出報告如下 敬請各位委員不吝指導首先就黃汛抗旱的準備情形"},{"start":2047.256,"end":2071.693,"text":"首先報告防汛整備部分 去年歷次的颱風經濟部以最快的速度來完成緊急搶休搶險的工作也盤點了各縣市急要治水的這個工作 核定相關的補助包括工程以及應急措施原則上採用一次核定分年執行的方式來推動"},{"start":2073.024,"end":2085.41,"text":"此外也移緩積極投入10億元的經費辦理巴掌溪、老榮溪等等的復建工作所有的復建工程會在今年4月底汛期開始前達到保護的標準"},{"start":2088.018,"end":2117.435,"text":"在治理工程趕辦的同時水利署也同步的進行河川平井段的輸進工作以巴掌溪為例原本在今年訓期前希望完成輸進300萬立方公尺的目標到目前為止我們的輸進的目標已經達到了338萬立方公尺超過原定的目標除此之外經濟部也跟地方政府合作各項防汛準備的工作包括"},{"start":2118.53,"end":2131.799,"text":"水利建造務 抽水站 水門 抽水機各項盤點檢查複查的一個工作 此外加強通聯及水庫廣播的測試在下個月"},{"start":2132.721,"end":2152.979,"text":"並分北中南東四個分區跟各地方政府召開黃訊準備的座談會進一步檢討全台黃訊準備措施是否需要加強之處除此之外台電公司及台水公司也落實了事前防範事後補救"},{"start":2154.178,"end":2168.781,"text":"予不强险人力机具并机动调配加强水电供应的韧性在抗旱准备的部分目前全国水库主要蓄水率都达到五成以上甚至到满库之多"},{"start":2169.562,"end":2183.968,"text":"各水庫、灌區已經進入到整田的作業並進入本田期經濟部將持續跟農業部持續合作在不影響農民耕作的情況下充分利用水資源"},{"start":2185.523,"end":2209.417,"text":"那除此之外依照交通部中央氣象署的預測未來4月到5月的預報降雨的情況是正常偏少的狀況那接下來的梅雨更是未來水情的關鍵所以經濟部將每日監控全國水情的變化零化活化這個區域的調度的一個作為至於在氣候變遷"},{"start":2210.731,"end":2226.838,"text":"在形式之下的因應對策分為三點報告第一個是流域的整體規劃包括系統性的治水首先跟委員會報告歷年的治水已經有成效經濟部將持續的辦理歷年的治水工作"},{"start":2228.154,"end":2254.968,"text":"以及前三計畫的推動之下已經擴大了全國的耐災韌性以高雄為例去年凱敏颱風單日最大的降雨量達到1400毫米已經超越98年莫納克的颱風但是淹水的範圍比莫納克的時候減少5000公頃顯示過去的治水已經展現了成效那未來經濟部將持續的推動中央管區域"},{"start":2255.828,"end":2280.166,"text":"地方管排水的保護工作對於上游的清疏的工作是經濟部非常重視的經濟部也爭取到行政院的支持對老榮溪防塞任性的工作辦理老榮溪上游的清疏確保上游桃園寶萊地區交通部落農業及溫泉產業的發展的安全至於"},{"start":2281.294,"end":2304.896,"text":"未來的流域的系統性治理我們分為五大策略第一個策略是進行整體的規劃治理加速全流域的整治提升縣市管河川及排水的整治率第二是提升土地的沉洪能力導入進流分攤出流管制在地滋洪措施由土地跟河道共同承擔洪水"},{"start":2306.411,"end":2332.271,"text":"第三是減少淹水入家門的機會增設第二道防線村落的防護提升區域的防洪能力第四是加速退水我們會因地制宜採用非對稱的治理在沿海地區加大抽排提升低窪地區的退水能力最後是在防災應變的部分我們會持續的推動社區自主防災科技"},{"start":2332.872,"end":2342.374,"text":"智慧防灾等非工程措施强化灾害预警及疏散测灵至于在推动水资源建设的部分"},{"start":2343.632,"end":2362.085,"text":"如何強化供水韌性因應氣候變遷經濟部透過開源節流調度備援措施到113年底總共增加每日237萬噸的水源相當於全國22%的公共用水目前全台"},{"start":2363.061,"end":2382.363,"text":"全國各地包括六大區域發展地區供水都相當的穩定那未來我們會採用三項策略持續的精緻的操作水庫來確保水資源的儲存此外完善西部地區供水廊道也就是珍珠串的計畫"},{"start":2383.844,"end":2409.936,"text":"經濟部目前正加速趕辦珍珠川的計畫那先前已經完成了版二水源聯合調度的管線都在近年發揮救漢的成果113年曾文跟南化的聯通管已經完成並通水增加水源調度備援的能力達到每日80萬噸而且透過雙向的聯通會發揮1加1大於2的功能"},{"start":2411.216,"end":2413.192,"text":"此外我們會強化備援措施"},{"start":2414.347,"end":2441.835,"text":"擴大科技灶水提升供水的韌性政府已經加強了浮流水跟抗旱水等備援的供水設施目前新竹、猶羅溪、台中、大安溪以及彰化、烏溪及高雄的老榮溪的浮流水都已經在趕辦之中預計在115年前可以完成可再增加每日29萬噸的備援水源此外政府也擴大推動再生水"},{"start":2442.415,"end":2467.542,"text":"海淡水等科技造水也核定了全国总共16案再生水开发计划其中6案已经完成10案持续的推动中除此之外在新竹的海水淡化厂116年为产水的目标台南的海水淡化厂以117年为产水的目标嘉义跟高雄的海淡厂预计今年提报"},{"start":2468.317,"end":2480.174,"text":"進入到環評的審查 未來希望海淡水直接併入自來水的系統聯合運用可以穩定枯水期的供水最後跟委員會報告"},{"start":2481.542,"end":2501.91,"text":"行政院正緊鑼密鼓的推動水域流域永續推動小組整合部會跟地方的資源行政院已經成立了水域流域永續推動小組的工作並在113年11月25號頒布行政院水域流域永續推動小組設置要點"},{"start":2503.331,"end":2528.243,"text":"本小組分為四個功能分組包括水土林保育分組由農業部主政治水及供水分組由經濟部主政河川水環境分組由環境部主政國土調適分組由內政部主政未來將以流域整體性的考量以國家治理的角度透過行政治理及流域空間資訊整合"},{"start":2529.932,"end":2552.135,"text":"定定治理策略優先次序及經費分配以達成有水無災用水有度水清與有的永續目標最後跟委員會報告經濟部將落實卓院長指示的新治水、新供水、降漏水三大目標確保資源的值跟量平衡的利用"},{"start":2553.12,"end":2568.113,"text":"台灣過去曾經遭遇過嚴重的水災也遭遇過滿年大旱在政府推動多項的建設之下感謝大院的支持讓我們黃紅抗旱的韌性大幅的提升未來經濟部"},{"start":2569.634,"end":2591.034,"text":"後續將透過行政院水及流域永續推動小組工作整合各部會的資源以及民間的力量以行政治理的方式進行系統性的治水共同朝永續變景邁進以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請農業部的黃昭清次長報告"},{"start":2601.901,"end":2620.925,"text":"主席各位委員今天奉邀出席大院第11屆第三會期的經濟委員會報告2025年防寒抗旱的計畫以下僅就相關議題進行報告敬請委員不吝指教那首先報告當行的農業水情近年本部透過增設蓄水空間"},{"start":2621.565,"end":2643.993,"text":"新建调度设施以及改善老旧运路然后抗汗水井开发多元水源建置智慧调控系统等那可调度的水量已经显著的提升目前农业水库 皮塘以及灌溉相关的这个蓄水设施储水量均高于10年的同期平均蓄水量而且河川流量正常"},{"start":2644.853,"end":2666.452,"text":"依目前水庫河川流量以及水文水理的這個條件評估114年上半年各式作物均能夠正常灌溉正是未來降雨量不如預期本部也將透過跨系統調度實施輪灌以及啟用抗旱水井運用多元水源等措施亦可提供農民灌溉的服務面對"},{"start":2668.683,"end":2685.532,"text":"全球的這個極端氣候平壤本部已讓台灣農業成為永續韌性的產業讓農民成為高度專業的職業為施政目標積極打造兼顧智慧韌性永續安心的農業完善韌性基礎建設導入新創新AI技術"},{"start":2686.492,"end":2703.127,"text":"輔助減災作為及災後復原強化農業水災、旱災預防及因應措施因此緊究本部對於防洪、抗旱的各項措施依序說明在防洪措施方面因為氣候變遷所導致之水災風險"},{"start":2704.668,"end":2722.554,"text":"有賴於森林永續經營剝地整體性的治山防災強化農業水庫清淤農田水利設施巡檢以及養殖環境維護等改善的措施就各項防洪措施辦理情形如下的說明第一個推動森林永續的經營發揮水源涵養"},{"start":2724.315,"end":2741.764,"text":"以及土砂焊池的功能使森林恢復保水跟防砂的本能發揮到防災森林的目標113年度已經執行了崩塌處理電機約有68.42公頃抑制土砂下一輛約263.33萬立方公尺"},{"start":2745.366,"end":2768.074,"text":"預計今年度將持續執行處理崩塌面積85公頃抑制土砂下一輛約289萬立方公尺此外針對波地的整體性治傷防災以及大規模崩塌減災的這個部分本部農村水保署積極協助地方政府落實土石流防災整備工作培訓防災專員"},{"start":2769.983,"end":2787.749,"text":"精進自主防災社區管理以及提升自主防災的能力所以根據重點災害復健區域已經辦理了79處的相關儀器的檢測另外114年度預計將完成土砂災害防治350處崩塌地處理20處抑制土砂630萬立方公尺"},{"start":2794.972,"end":2810.689,"text":"以及野溪清疏240萬立方公尺針對全國52處重點災害復健區域進行列管跟持續的追蹤管理有關於強化農業水庫清淤增加滯洪空間本部農水署"},{"start":2812.03,"end":2818.632,"text":"為了確保農業蓄水設施正常的操作以及減少淤積積極辦理農業水庫經常性的清淤工作113年總清淤量已經達到82萬餘立方公尺持續提升蓄水量達到362萬立方公尺"},{"start":2831.96,"end":2857.036,"text":"第四項工作是辦理農田水利設施的巡檢確保其防洪的功能為了維持農田水利設施正常運作針對水閘門灌溉排取以及皮塘等措施分別由本部農田水利署以及所屬的各管理處以及各地工作站辦理三級農田水利構造物的檢查以確保灌溉排取得益於災害期間能夠順利的防洪"},{"start":2858.274,"end":2876.584,"text":"第五項有關於改善養殖區域生產環境輔導漁民來防洪準備的部分由本部的漁業署補助各縣市勝普辦理排水改善以及徵購移動式抽水機等設備減緩在汛期暴雨期間洪災易淹的面積縮短地窪地區淹水的時間減輕漁業的災害同時逐步訓練漁民辦理養殖區防災準備工作在颱風期間聯繫有關單位"},{"start":2886.75,"end":2900.71,"text":"開啟閉水門以及操作抽水溪及時減輕颱風的損失另外就抗旱措施方面台灣因為山勢陡峭河川湍急水資源不易蓄存"},{"start":2901.417,"end":2917.99,"text":"再加上降雨空間時空不均造成風水期跟枯水期會有相當明顯的差異因此農業用水會直接受到衝擊支救農業部就供水韌性實施的各項措施說明如下"},{"start":2918.57,"end":2939.264,"text":"第一個辦理浚路的更新改善減少疏漏水系統性的來更新我們的浚路以健全農田水利設施的功能113年已完成改善渠道總共有146公里有效減少灌溉用水疏漏水達到了1022萬立方公尺114年預計完成改善渠道251公里提高水資源運用量達1757萬立方公尺"},{"start":2948.83,"end":2977.75,"text":"另外增設調序設施提升調度能量在辦理重要幹蓋系統的渠道設施工程的時候我們也會一併考量在系地新增調序的設施目前已經增加了57萬立方公尺的調序空間另外在濁幹線跟嘉南淡郡的北幹線串接工程預計也會在今年完工結合跨系統的調度可有效提供農業水資源的韌性"},{"start":2978.77,"end":2999.481,"text":"第三開發多水源增加灌溉可調度的水源依照各灌區不同的特性錯開整田期分區輪貫小區調控以及取用河川水溪流水回歸水利用精準配水以及夜間調水等各項措施每年增加調度的能量約達8650萬立方公尺那另外113年以"},{"start":3004.942,"end":3014.907,"text":"著涉更新抗旱水井總共有121口114年預計再新增179口有效解決旱石灌水的供水壓力"},{"start":3016.598,"end":3035.906,"text":"第四在布置智慧灌溉推動農業灌溉的精準化我們將持續導入新興的科技推動灌溉用水智慧管理逐步達到精準灌溉的目標113年已經興建及改善了423處的水文監測以及智慧砸控等設施114年預計可再完成450處"},{"start":3038.707,"end":3065.284,"text":"全國智慧灌溉的相關設備將會累積到2936處大幅提升灌溉用水調度以及防災應變的能力近年因全球軟化、旱撈交替頻繁而且越區極端影響農產品的生產環境也對全國農田水利設施造成嚴重的威脅為了有效控制並減少災害損失本部落實訓期前整備作業及訓期間的應變措施"},{"start":3067.225,"end":3089.664,"text":"同時依災害防救規定本部配合水災及旱災的中央災害防救就業業務主管機關經濟部來辦理水旱災之災害系統性的預防、整備、應變以及復原的工作此外本部將跟續推動如上所報告的各項防洪抗旱的相關措施以降低氣候變遷對農漁業所帶來相關的衝擊與風險以上報告請各位委員不吝賜教"},{"start":3096.408,"end":3121.258,"text":"好谢谢我们内政部跟国家科学及技术委员会的书面报告就请委员自行参阅并刊登公报现在进行询答委员询答前主席原力作以下宣告每位委员发言时间本会委员6分钟必要时得延长2分钟非本会委员5分钟上午10点30分截止发言登记首先请第一位邱毅英委员发言"},{"start":3129.669,"end":3157.069,"text":"謝謝主席我先請一下經濟部次長賴次長次長好我想這個是應該是您第一次以經濟部次長的身份來備詢過去在這邊你大概都是以水利署署長的這樣的一個身份所以您對於這個抗旱防洪如何治水"},{"start":3158.189,"end":3173.776,"text":"我相信你應該有非常多的經驗次長您剛剛的報告其實開宗明義就提到了高雄高雄在去年的凱米颱風的時候單日最高降雨量是超過1400毫米對不對"},{"start":3176.637,"end":3188.471,"text":"這已經遠超過98年的莫拉克風災但是呢 當時大家就在討論說到底高雄這麼多年來做了這一些滯洪池有沒有效有一批網友認為這個滯洪池是沒有效的"},{"start":3192.495,"end":3220.628,"text":"但是在我們在地的感覺跟你們現在的這個報告你的報告裡面很清楚講說淹水範圍比起莫拉克少了大概五千公頃那我們看了一下過去的這十幾二十年來所有台灣的這一些治水計畫把高雄跟北北基拿起來相比赫然我們會覺得說高雄其實很可憐"},{"start":3221.752,"end":3246.97,"text":"如果不是從2006年開始我們有所謂的這些治水計畫特別預算的挹注治洪池的設立我想高雄的淹水應該會比過往更嚴重現在的這種極端氣候你看今天都已經三月底了過去這個時候應該是熱到快昏倒了可是現在台北的溫度這麼低"},{"start":3248.57,"end":3274.946,"text":"次長我想請教一下您覺得像這樣的一個治水計畫到底有沒有效那這樣的治水計畫比如說在高雄我們其實還有很多地方我們的防洪標準是遠低於20年的25年的那有沒有去盤點這一些地區那有沒有什麼新的新興計畫或者是要趕快加速來進行的 有沒有是"},{"start":3276.224,"end":3291.043,"text":"首先跟委員說明過去的治水工作確實產生很大的效果以剛剛委員這張投影片為例在北北基的淡水河的流域民國71年開始投入超過1600億元的預算但是"},{"start":3294.778,"end":3321.695,"text":"相较之下我们其他的流域地区包括中南部重大的刚刚委员所说的高雄地区我们只有在民国94年开始政府才用集中的力量用特别预算来编列希望来补助地方政府在过往94年之前一年差不多是30亿94年之前大概都是只有坐北北机南部很少被看见我们看到高雄25个制红尺"},{"start":3322.515,"end":3342.796,"text":"不管是在楷米颱風或是在栗翅的颱風都發揮很大的效果那我們也不敢想像說整個城市若是沒有製紅池缺少了土地的成紅這個情況會如何所以近年來我們就積極的推動也是在委員的協助之下我們在美濃透過"},{"start":3344.212,"end":3360.069,"text":"工程的滯洪池還有包括農地的滯洪這個概念在凱敏颱風之後我們看到了很多的縣市政府都是希望引用高雄美農在地滯洪的經驗來引用到他的地方市長你講到這個我們就來先來看就繼續來探討我覺得"},{"start":3365.094,"end":3388.228,"text":"抗旱跟防洪 治洪其實它有一點算是一體的啦您剛講到美濃的在地治洪其實它在過去幾次的颱風雨災的時候都發揮了相當的程度的效果去年前年這個水利署在老農溪有一個所謂的防災韌性計畫你們在老農溪的這個中下游這邊"},{"start":3390.29,"end":3397.001,"text":"中游啦 就靠近這個新威大橋這裡你們把它峻深挖了一個很大的"},{"start":3398.343,"end":3420.796,"text":"像類似像滯洪池那當然意外的造成一個很漂亮的景觀那這個其實對你們來說你們其實是把水除下來然後呢也補充了我們的地下水所以這兩年在枯旱期的時候美濃地區已經沒有再喊說啊這個缺水啦沒有水這個計畫我覺得非常的好"},{"start":3421.696,"end":3433.672,"text":"可是很顯然的看起來因為預算總預算被砍了之後我看我跟那個署長應該是兩個禮拜前我們去現場看過嘛這個未來算是你們的新興計畫總預算被砍了之後這還能做嗎"},{"start":3438.639,"end":3463.101,"text":"這麼優秀這麼好的一個計畫單單老農溪的防災任性計畫未來還能做嗎我不知道這個我要請教第二個前瞻的治水計畫預算也還沒有審查過所以您剛剛講的高雄的這一些工程我剛剛問你的高雄未來還有沒有其他的工程有很多治理工程就有18件應急工程有49件"},{"start":3464.542,"end":3485.827,"text":"可是呢 這一些計畫 這一些工程因為前瞻的治水計畫預算沒過所以這一些工程還橫在那裡那你們給本席的備註裡面有寫說各同意案件需與治理計畫相符114年所需的經費如果預算奉准後再辦理"},{"start":3486.727,"end":3503.117,"text":"如果預算沒有準的話請各縣市政府自籌經費辦理或於後續計畫提列換句話說現在預算沒過雖然你們已經把工程核定了但是未來我們不知道錢在哪裡工程還能不能做得下去"},{"start":3503.997,"end":3529.231,"text":"所以所謂的防災任性抗旱防洪完全都要取決於錢啊錢在哪裡 昨天這個是我去年十月份到仁武鳥松地區的十九灣排水去年凱米颱風仁武淹得很嚴重所以市政府水利局認為十九灣的排水原來的滯洪量不足所以我們要把它擴大量呢這個案子也在你們核定的"},{"start":3529.551,"end":3551.423,"text":"案件裡面了可是現在沒錢不知道什麼時候能做昨天我跟陳其邁市長到美濃湖去看排水這個已經工程已經做了65%了但是我們還有另外一期的工程大概將近840公尺的這個美濃湖的這個排水工程合訂了但是我不知道現在錢在哪裡能不能做什麼時候可以做市長可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":3559.486,"end":3578.86,"text":"跟委員說明前瞻第五期的預算我們經過立法院聯席會議委員會審議通過大概經濟部的部分編了101億元我們希望這個預算早日通過剛剛委員所說的各縣市分配在前瞻五期的工程就可以很快速的開展"},{"start":3579.58,"end":3592.171,"text":"那當然現在預算還沒有通過的情況之下我們會利用前期的預算或是一些結餘的部分來做相關的這個融資不過基本上因為4月底"},{"start":3593.305,"end":3618.003,"text":"就是我們訓期 準備要開始了嘛結束的時候 是啊 五月一號就訓期開始了我們希望這個預算早日的通過那另外老榮溪的這個計畫 因為他是屬於新興計畫那也需要總預算的 總預算被砍了新興計畫就完全不能做啦所以我就很擔心啊 我們所謂的這些防災任性到底要怎麼防災 要怎麼做任性"},{"start":3619.588,"end":3640.028,"text":"政府空有這麼多的想法跟計畫可是沒錢沒錢你什麼都做不了啊沒錢你什麼樣的災都防不了啊沒錢你怎麼樣來保護人民的生命財產的安全啊這是我們最擔憂的地方啊預算可以砍 但是不能亂砍啊"},{"start":3642.332,"end":3666.948,"text":"不能沒有理性的亂砍 你砍到這樣子我們今天主席 我很高興主席今天排了一個這樣的議程可是你可以凸顯到我單單現在只有講我高雄的部分我選區的部分 就這麼多的工程了你更何況其他的委員 其他的區域中部的山區要不要北部要不要 雖然北部已經拿了很多錢了"},{"start":3668.291,"end":3692.87,"text":"大家各自回到區域裡頭 你面臨到淹水的問題的時候你面臨到治水的問題的時候都需要錢啊這些計畫不是憑空掉下來的 錢也不是憑空掉下來啊我其實我本來還有想要問那個農業部喔就你們的那個灌溉的部分啊來 那個次長 主席可以再給我一分鐘齁次長您剛剛的那個報告裡面啊 你們農業部有一些"},{"start":3694.841,"end":3723.824,"text":"你講的這個所謂的灌溉系統你有增加了這麼多處的智慧灌溉增加了這麼多的抗旱水井但是你沒有告訴我們你的區域分布在哪些地方基本上我們就是要提高這個它的農業的韌性所以對於缺水的地方我們特別會來加強所以基本上這些多水源以及這個增加抗旱的這些水源絕大部分都是集中在這個中南部的這些地區"},{"start":3724.264,"end":3751.407,"text":"集中在中南部來那個蔡署長我是不是能夠請您給我一份比較完整的比如說你們的這些智慧灌溉系統跟抗旱水井的這些建設大概是在哪一些縣市哪一些區域那你們的這個灌溉溝渠你們的灌溉溝渠能不能跟水利的這個所謂的排水系統把它做一個適度的連結"},{"start":3752.788,"end":3769.902,"text":"有時候大水一來可以透過你們的灌溉溝渠讓這個水也能夠順利的導流出去我覺得這個也是一個防災的概念過去賴建信在當署長的時候也推過這樣的一個想法有沒有可能大家再去做一些整合"},{"start":3770.852,"end":3794.531,"text":"報告委員沒有問題首先資料部分大概我們的康安水井這幾年都集中在高屏還有雲嘉南地區那第二個部分就是事實上我們的進入系統也包含一部分的這個農田排水所以農田排水跟這個區域排水還有相關市域排水其實都有互相的我知道你們有包含但我講的是說比較易淹水地區的這些排水能不能讓他更緊密的去結合好不好我們持續努力謝謝委員"},{"start":3796.132,"end":3811.099,"text":"好 謝謝 再請下一位委員詢答前 我們先進行確認議事錄 那上一次會議議事錄請問有無錯誤沒有 好 議事錄確定 現在請林旦化委員做詢答有請次長 賴次長"},{"start":3828.145,"end":3848.151,"text":"市长本席关心我们极端气候所带来的强降雨它除了淹水的问题还有电力溃损的问题所以在极端气候即使在去年2024年10月一个枯水期当中却来了三个台风"},{"start":3848.951,"end":3862.506,"text":"那這個當然地表吸水量有限 土壤的含水量有限大量的降雨當然由山區匯流就到了平原 所以呢水利設施面臨的挑戰當然我們就有淹水了好那對於這個"},{"start":3864.508,"end":3883.195,"text":"南部這邊的降雨時空其實分布是不均的第二個 豐沛降雨量無法確保我高雄穩定的供水第三個 缺水問題成為經濟產業發展的隱憂第四個 在短時間強降雨造成的嚴重水患當然本席有一些具體的主張"},{"start":3884.075,"end":3903.831,"text":"那在南部地区的降雨的时空分布不均这两张图很明确一个是我们台湾的平均的雨量一个是我南部的平均雨量那在这样的枯水期当中的11 12到4月5到10月当中很明显就是集中在一个7月"},{"start":3905.072,"end":3920.573,"text":"那但是呢枯水期的那個量啊幾乎是這個風水期跟枯水期的量其實是沒有辦法平衡的那這豐沛降雨呢也沒有辦法這個確保高雄的穩定供水我大高雄並沒有大型可用的儲水水庫"},{"start":3921.474,"end":3944.154,"text":"所以自來水就來自三個 高頻驗 浮流水跟地下水好 那這個台灣地區啊 這個山高水短所以呢 這個過去十年 高雄地區平均的年降達到2020的公里喔但是呢 因為沒有大型水庫 所以呢 旭峰季枯"},{"start":3944.654,"end":3967.085,"text":"的功能也就沒有那所以呢缺水問題反而成為我經濟產業發展的隱憂那高雄地區我們缺乏蓄水能量無法有效的調節水資源所以呢在年度降雨量低於平均的時候很容易引發缺水的危機對於民生產業衝擊是很大的好本期關心的是高雄的S郎帶"},{"start":3968.105,"end":3977.25,"text":"在S浪帶當中高雄地區的經濟命脈台積電也準備進行擴廠那光是一個3奈米廠一天就要7.5萬噸一個2奈米廠我只講一個2奈米廠他就一天要10萬噸水"},{"start":3985.075,"end":4006.176,"text":"但是我高雄每日的供水當然這個數字可能需要調整一下他在民生用水的量體可以120幾噸可以高到130幾萬噸每天工業用水大概每天可以到20幾萬噸最高可以到40萬噸我現在講的這個數字是高雄現在已經合理的最大量體"},{"start":4006.957,"end":4024.515,"text":"所以如果我的不管是這個相關的S廊帶這邊所有的企業進駐或其他這個產業的進駐即使是中小型大量的進駐之下高雄的缺水的問題其實是可以已經是可以預估的當然我們就要防範嘛"},{"start":4025.896,"end":4030.981,"text":"好所以呢包括我要講到電力這個強降雨呢既然會帶來水患又會破壞電力設施那高雄又幅員廣大城鄉落差很大所以呢從過去的那三個颱風很明顯的只要這個強降雨來之後我很多地方是變成電力孤島的"},{"start":4046.596,"end":4073.463,"text":"所以我在這邊具體要求兩項第一個請經濟部盤點我高雄半導體S廊帶或新建工業區的用水需求提出由廠商自建或政府協助建立的再生水廠或者海水氮化廠來供這些廠區使用避免新增的產業進駐排擠高雄市現有的工業或者跟民生用水"},{"start":4073.763,"end":4095.22,"text":"因為有新廠我的人員會進駐那相關人員來當然我的民生用水量也會增加所以我們不希望產業所帶來的經濟榮景以及這個人口的增加他反而排擠到我現有的這個工業民生的用水量另外一個我要請你們盤點全高雄地區的微電網儲能系統"},{"start":4096.381,"end":4125.391,"text":"你們到底建制的如何過去三個颱風非常的慘烈那包括我自己的選區大寮的海堤的地方沿著海堤的地方這個理論上是不太可能做這個電網地下化而是以微電網的方式來建制那到底計畫在哪裡所以呢避免這個水災的時候形成電力孤島所以針對水跟電請你提供相關的這個規劃那是不是請回應一下"},{"start":4126.972,"end":4153.981,"text":"首先非常佩服委員對於水跟電的指教目前我們的工作大概都朝著委員所提的方向 委員兩個具體主張我們這些資料我們一個禮拜內會送給你 但是我在這邊容我再用大家一點時間說明一下你提出來的一個事項我們辦理的情形 第一個風枯不均這個不但是高雄如此 我們依照國科會"},{"start":4155.59,"end":4178.568,"text":"未来的事件我们的分析全国大概这个情况都不例外没有一处不例外所以我们积极的来推动西部蓝带的珍珠串计划就是要来解决以高雄为例在去年113年我们把真文水库跟南化水库这个水源串通起来就可以解决刚刚委员所说的高雄"},{"start":4179.594,"end":4196.989,"text":"有水沒有庫的情況因為過多的水就會往北送到南化水庫跟曾文水庫去存下來所以委員可以看到目前南化水庫跟曾文水庫的水量都我知道你很努力的在這個豐庫當中的調解那本席講的是我已經很預測我未來產業進駐"},{"start":4198.971,"end":4216.821,"text":"的一個大量用水以及在這個極端氣候下所形成的強降雨而造成的電力孤島的問題所以你剛才解釋我接受那我也肯定你們的努力但是我對於新增的用水的量體那你們要整個大高雄盤點出來您說的一個月內是嗎"},{"start":4218.563,"end":4239.882,"text":"好 一個月內 這個電力的部分或新建的工業區或新建的工業區像高雄有百埔工業區啊 它是針對中小企業啊複合型的一個工業區啊 也是經濟部開發的啊那像那個東西你也知道 為什麼我還提到政府你不是每個人都台積電可以自建啊那如果那個園區來講 在我現有不排擠現有的"},{"start":4242.825,"end":4263.915,"text":"工業民生用水之後可是有新建的這些工業區那你是不是要自己投入要協助他們用公立的用我們公家地上去做再生水場對新建的工業區要做啊是 高雄目前就是有全國最多的再生水我們不希望這些高科技的用水如委員所說排擠到既有民生的用水"},{"start":4264.315,"end":4281.682,"text":"所以我們未來在高雄我們會再有兩個計畫大概是楠梓跟橋頭攀點出來好不好再給我好不好因為你的增加的量跟你現在的供給量需求量跟供給量是不是能夠對應得上針對微電網的部分是請台電總經理稍微回覆一下還是次長你要回覆"},{"start":4282.402,"end":4301.515,"text":"基本上電網強韌計畫這個部分其實是我們目前盡力在做的事情那至於說孤島的地方這個也是現在台電公司希望說我要的是全高雄你們要規劃微電網的儲能系統你們要給我一個規劃那要不要總經理林可"},{"start":4305.477,"end":4325.473,"text":"第一個針對高雄整個區域包括意志在的地區是不是容我們經濟部來盤點一下跟台電公司確認一下再送資料給你因為我不講偏鄉的地方因為不是偏鄉都會整回電力孤島如果我的選區林園林園林園區那幾乎就七天"},{"start":4326.594,"end":4348.155,"text":"這整個三個颱風來之後 七天斷電 但是我要肯定台電是很積極的搶修我沒有任何苛責之意 但是對我民怨沸騰七天沒有電 民生除了實在是已經受不了之外 我的所有的魚苗我們的高雄黑的喜宅那個園區 提供了全台灣六成的魚苗"},{"start":4349.036,"end":4363.629,"text":"全部通通打趴全部所以那個所帶來的產業所以你一個微電網的整個高雄市的規劃不是只有三區連高雄市區內都可能都你們要去評估啊好不好好謝謝好一個月內這兩個有關這個我們一個月內提供給委員謝謝好謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答"},{"start":4382.278,"end":4385.881,"text":"謝謝我們請次長賴次長委員好次長上一次質詢的時候是署長一下子才這兩三個禮拜之間就變成次長了那第一個問題又是您最在行的"},{"start":4411.638,"end":4426.591,"text":"因為從抗旱也好或是水利工程也好對你來講這是你最專業的也是一路來從基層一直上來可是專業歸專業沒錢也沒辦法辦事對不對市長這是很敏感的今天"},{"start":4433.311,"end":4458.895,"text":"我們一直在這段時間看到全國各地慢慢有防洪抗害的能力是因為我們除了本體預算公務預算提升第二個部分我們也有前瞻計畫把整個資源完全投入我們的防洪跟抗害才有辦法讓大家感覺到"},{"start":4460.222,"end":4486.941,"text":"整個國家慢慢的有防洪 抗旱的能力 是不是尤其面對極端氣候如果沒有我們第一時間從過去的八八一路來到前瞻很難因為我們來自地方 我們都知道光一個水利工程那不是簡單一千萬 兩千萬做得起來"},{"start":4488.871,"end":4514.615,"text":"大家要做一招抽水瓶 那就要咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕還有制紅池我相信這就是在整個我們防洪很重要的關鍵再加上要抗旱 因為極端氣候有時候就要惹火了很多火力都沒了 有時候一滴火就沒了"},{"start":4516.246,"end":4544.514,"text":"所以你必須我們要有萬全的準備去幫忙人民如何去防洪如何去抗旱因為政府要作為人民最好的支撐者才能夠讓他們面對這個極端的氣候尤其極端的氣候所造成的都是人民財產安全的損失"},{"start":4546.417,"end":4563.253,"text":"這是不容有任何折扣的所以我要先問我們看到去年的楷米還有整個颱風不斷的肆虐造成台南農牧漁業損失慘重"},{"start":4565.822,"end":4594.184,"text":"甚至很多的低窪地區都是淹水超過好多個禮拜都沒有退當下我們去會刊了我們也過了很多的相關計畫可是我們要問的從去年到今年汛期又要到了都處理好了嗎都準備好了嗎 市長"},{"start":4596.972,"end":4617.809,"text":"謝謝委員的指導 治水的工作除了委員之外 所有經濟委員會的各位委員都非常的重視 非常感謝委員會過去代包括今年度的預算都非常的支持剛剛委員所提出的前瞻計畫也是透過聯席會跟財政委員會聯席會現在已經通過了 我們希望加速了"},{"start":4618.93,"end":4646.568,"text":"來通過這個預算讓所有的工作能趕快開展但是針對於治水的工作特別是黃汛跟各位報告我們沒有最好但是只有更好到目前為止我們除了工程方法導入之外我們積極的跟縣市來合作比如說我也很關心的巴掌溪及水溪的疏浚包括曾文溪的排水的治理因為我們現在已經把下流段慢慢治理好了我們希望說"},{"start":4647.589,"end":4674.146,"text":"比照山野溪的經驗把上游的部分因為這個土地也一直在飆漲市長你剛剛講到山野溪我也要跟你一起把它變成一個很重要的一個指標跟關鍵我想市長當時候山野溪在淹水的時候當時候蔡英文總統下台南我當時候就跟蔡總統說總統"},{"start":4677.006,"end":4701.699,"text":"當我們縣的整治關鍵在土地要一次核定署長你當時候聽很清楚嗎你當時候是署長所以蔡英文總統很清楚這個關鍵所以回來一次核定對不對署長一次核定之後我們很簡單的土地一起來做處理願意"},{"start":4704.359,"end":4729.278,"text":"來做架構的我們馬上處理所以有用看用啦所以我們今天的報告第一頁就把當時的精神放在這裡我們希望說一次核定分年實施的部分對於全國集要段的自理核酸都比照我們過去三延期的經驗來落實這樣對整個防災的能力會更好是對啊沒錯市長"},{"start":4731.039,"end":4759.274,"text":"山岩溪已經有這麼好的經驗了可是我看你後面好像並不是用這樣方向因為我當時候就跟署長拜託說署長我跟總統直接建言總統也答應了也確實我們就用一次核定所以當時候在卡關在鬼打牆的時候那些過程都沒了所以我們山岩溪可以很快的"},{"start":4760.339,"end":4778.774,"text":"而且是超乎我們原本的預估因為過去每一次都是土地一段一段土地徵收完了再來做治水的工程然後這一段完了我們再換下一段永遠就卡來卡去可是你一次核定不一樣"},{"start":4779.935,"end":4795.922,"text":"所以水利工程是要跟時間在跑的、在攪拌的跟時間在賽跑的所以我一直講像我們曾文熙排水現在終於終於終於終於做到最後段了終於喔!市長我已經讓你輪過了曾文熙排水過去的整理常態十幾年了17年"},{"start":4808.018,"end":4837.154,"text":"我當民意代表立委17年就爭取了17年最後終於做到最後段了這當中你看浪費了多少時間所以我一直在說的這事情不能算啦而且當你今天沒有做好前面淹水我們做的工程等於都無效 人民無感"},{"start":4838.689,"end":4858.806,"text":"所以我們一定在水利工程一定要做一致合定這才是最關鍵 如果在潦白水也是一扎一扎慢慢地走然後搞到所有的里長說啊你做這個要幹什麼啊你在走我也在喝水 人民無感"},{"start":4861.42,"end":4874.69,"text":"所以在整個我們所看到的現在水利工程包括我們所期待的總預算這一次我們水利署的預算也被刪減了9.63億農業部的預算被刪減了2.73億"},{"start":4882.831,"end":4909.133,"text":"這些其實都是人民急迫需要的 但被刪掉好 那前瞻呢前瞻第五期 也是在空中在背餒我們現在執行是一至四期嘛 對不對而且一至四期都在執行當中了 已經要做結尾了好 那結尾完呢就是第五期"},{"start":4910.427,"end":4939.187,"text":"像第五期 關我爭取的麻豆安南中西新營新市永康還有所有民眾設置防水閘門板的預算一億一千兩百七十四萬還有仁德區將軍區外僱傭馬沙溝崔坤新的囚罪長幫忙安平 膽固領地 運空善化"},{"start":4940.165,"end":4945.74,"text":"這都是在我們第五期第五期的市長怎麼辦第一個我們希望"},{"start":4950.612,"end":4975.597,"text":"相關包括委員會所支持的預算趕快可以順利的通過第五期經濟部大概編了101億元左右那現在在朝野協商中那如果是這個預算趕快通過的話因為第五期的預算我們已經優先的先把它盤點出來有一些都已經先行核列只不過因為配合預算法的關係所以這個部分你們去年都核列了嘛"},{"start":4976.556,"end":4998.97,"text":"就是我們看到 凱米等等 好幾個颱風進來我們早就核裂了啊都已經跟人家講說 咱們要走啊結果 無聲吊在空中在飛我們當時看了多少我再次強調安南區 新化區 嘉里 麻豆 柳營嘉里 新化 還有六甲甚至是夏營 鹽水北門 七谷"},{"start":5008.22,"end":5025.409,"text":"堅定 關田我們所看到的全部都是我們目前非常重要急迫需要的還有北區 東區 安南區仁德 雪甲白河 南溪這些都等著你們咧怎麼辦這些都等著你們咧市長"},{"start":5037.216,"end":5042.745,"text":"有什麼想法 現在倒在盡頭到尾了中午三個紅台 前瞻第五期也動不了"},{"start":5051.909,"end":5078.334,"text":"訊息又要到了 訊息快到了我們中心的期盼 立法院院會能趕快通過我們前瞻的第五期預算 因為特別預算有它的嚴謹度那公務預算的部分還有逐年不超過原核定的這個預算的額度裡面還有一些方法可以去想那特別預算的部分這些確實比較麻煩一點 但是我們也可能拜託地方政府他可以多先行電款來"},{"start":5079.154,"end":5102.532,"text":"做發包 或許有可能找到解方 但是我們中央都知道要做編啦所以中央政府已經都有點失能了啦你跟他講說他先編 他也不會編啦以前都是我們等候他然後他 電付案配合款現在你叫他先編 他就說 那你錢什麼時候要給我所以 市長"},{"start":5107.85,"end":5135.553,"text":"今天台南37區每個地方都有我們核定的計畫我們都有去現場看過37區都有但是現在面臨的是動不了所以市長這個要解決啊前瞻的第五期還有我們的總預算這沒有辦法折扣而且有些被凍結的我們希望你們趕快拿出來解凍"},{"start":5137.383,"end":5157.059,"text":"我相信我們所有的委員都不會阻擋這都是人民的小命機要救命的啦拜託大家也拜託我們的經濟部我們真的要努力而且預算這已經現實狀況了被凍在那裡我們下一步怎麼解決謝謝好謝謝委員知道好謝謝我們現在請呂玉玲委員做詢問"},{"start":5172.537,"end":5172.819,"text":"謝謝主席 請賴長"},{"start":5183.974,"end":5209.626,"text":"委員好長赤恭喜從水利署長升到我們的長赤那治水的防洪的這些業務都是我們次長的這個長項你都非常的了解也非常有經驗那剛剛特別講到這個預算的問題那法定預算是可以直接在執行的那有凍結的預算請趕快送出來我們就可以解凍"},{"start":5210.426,"end":5233.96,"text":"送出來就可以解凍只要報告清楚人民需要的我們都會解凍好不好那今天特別我們談到的就是我們這個防洪抗旱的一些準備工作那因為近年來的話我們整個氣候的變遷那個降雨型態改變了很多那最近我們看到說我們水庫的那個蓄水量雖然說還很樂觀沒有缺水"},{"start":5236.542,"end":5241.245,"text":"但前幾年這個旱災我們用水就很吃緊那尤其是前幾年的時候我們那個燈號還在這個陳燈的時候橘燈的時候但是我那個區域龍潭的這個這個後園的這個水井就連夜被偷偷的抽水去供應竹北的竹科那這個問題一再的發生那但是我們"},{"start":5264.079,"end":5282.466,"text":"雖然說我們今年的水情看起來還是不錯的但是我們還是要未以籌謀有些必要性的工作還是要來先做的那尤其是看到我們全台的這個科學園區的這個用水量一天大概是55萬噸產業園區的話是55到60萬噸的這個情形如果我請問市長如果發生缺水的時候民生農業跟產業誰會先優先來供水"},{"start":5294.4,"end":5315.586,"text":"我們基本上我們希望透過供水韌性的改善那這幾年有產生的效果對於我們桃園地區我們即便面臨到104年當時的枯旱情境的話也不會進入到分區輪流供水那為什麼呢因為我們從北部逐漸的把水往南調調到好石門"},{"start":5316.966,"end":5337.416,"text":"這邊來 這些工作都已經開始在展開之中 行政院也核定了剛剛委員所詢問到了再生水 這是一個可以報告的部分我還沒問到再生水你跳革了我現在是問你說民生農業跟我們的產業如果發生強水的情形 你會先優先供給哪一個"},{"start":5338.536,"end":5367.122,"text":"當然是以民生為主啊民生為主所以你在這邊承諾尤其是我們的水利法18條的第一項裡面也要先供給民生用水對不對我們過去一直是如此你承諾的話一定要民生用水不要再發生搶水的情形或偷偷的來抽我們的備用水井好不好因為我們農產那邊有無控備用水井那時候是抗旱緊急工程抗旱你也要以民生為優先你抽去給產業的話當地我們的用水就發生了困難"},{"start":5367.862,"end":5388.167,"text":"因為在那個供水的那個幹網裡面 農業的幹線裡面他在不需要水的時候的時間我們把不需要水我才誇獎說我們次長對我們水的治理非常了解那時候的情形就是什麼時候水關掉了那所以水沒有排到農業用水 農業用水很多的水井水是往"},{"start":5388.547,"end":5412.504,"text":"低處流我們的備沿水井水是比較深的所以這個水井是未來我們要給民生優先使用的結果你們偷抽我們的水去給住客用這個事情不要再發生好不好以民生為優先市長在這邊承諾以民生為優先好不好當然我們是以民生優先考量好那接下來我們想問的就是我現在才要問你再生水廠的事情"},{"start":5414.488,"end":5441.635,"text":"次長因為我們桃竹苗在我們卓院長有宣布行政院有宣示說要做桃竹苗的大溪谷計畫那我們為了要深化產業的實力來促進整體園區的發展那我們對水電的供應應該有相當的配套那所以特別提到這大溪谷計畫裡面本席方開來看了一下你們對於這個水電的供應配套裡面特別有提到再生水廠的推動方案"},{"start":5442.355,"end":5464.345,"text":"那經濟部有在這方面有規劃到龜山還有苗栗的再生水廠但是這只停留在預估預估的階段而已可行性評估都沒有做請問一下你這個可行性評估沒有做那未來這個發生了缺水的情況之下目前的再生水廠供應的需求若不夠怎麼辦呢現在夠嗎如果是缺水的話目前的再生水廠夠不夠"},{"start":5472.771,"end":5482.923,"text":"這個所謂缺水要看所謂的水的缺用的一個程度不過剛剛瑋瑜所提到的不管是在我們陶北的那已經有1.8萬噸的再生水場"},{"start":5485.39,"end":5501.308,"text":"那這些部分是提供給廠商因為他可能加入RE100他對所謂的環境的運用是更好的這些就是要把都評估進去都要評估進來做可行性的評估你的可行性評估都還沒有送出來你什麼時候要送出來"},{"start":5502.097,"end":5529.751,"text":"跟委員說明你的這個黃色的部分是由內政部在做推動的那至於說你左邊這張圖的藍色的部分事實上都有計畫在推行之中不管是在陶北從原來的1.8萬噸到8萬噸這個118年就可以完成就我們從內政部掌握的資料是如此的那你都評估了嗎可行性都可以再做了嗎那這個已經開始在做了所以可行性已經過了"},{"start":5532.598,"end":5536.781,"text":"這個部分已經有已經有了所以我們希望趕快來做整個大矽谷計畫的話讓我們那個產業的投資才有信心不然的話他們在擴大的情況就沒有競爭力了好不好好 我們會請內政部教授來推動那接下來本席要問一下"},{"start":5550.091,"end":5555.552,"text":"那因為這個我們的電價審議委員會已經決議了我們的電價為了顧民生然後穩定我們的物價決議不調漲了電價不調漲了但是我們擔心水價會不會調漲那因為有人在說水價可能會調漲因為那個我們卓院長特別提到說要合理性的電價要做調整那雖然"},{"start":5574.957,"end":5585.027,"text":"31年沒有調動了但是我們也必須要把這個整體的水價合理性的提出檢討報告要送出來那現在送出來了沒有"},{"start":5585.9,"end":5609.947,"text":"目前為止我沒有收到這個臺水公司所說的報告 臺水公司說今天會送過來 臺水公司還沒有送我們現在議題都排出來 還沒有送總經理說今天他公司會報出來但是水利署好像還沒有看過這個報告那基本上我們對於所謂的公用事業包括民生所需要的不管是水跟電的問題我們除了"},{"start":5613.749,"end":5630.6,"text":"讓這個國營事業他有健全的財務體質之外我們也要考慮到社會上面對物價的衝擊所以當這個報告出來我們會仔細的去檢視他在公司的治理的部分有沒有像這個台電公司從產銷人發財各方面去檢審"},{"start":5631.955,"end":5646.828,"text":"支出來減少虧損讓整個經營更有效益的方法那所有可以促進台水公司可以有健全發展的這個方案我相信水利署跟我們經濟部都會盡快送出來了"},{"start":5648.749,"end":5675.888,"text":"那因為本席會這樣子問的話就是因為在2023年在王美花部長的時候特別有做出一份報告檢討水價合理性的結構報告裡面特別有提到說要增加水費集聚來累計淨費的這個大部分的這個差價分段的這個差價目前是分成四段那未來的話你們可能會分為幾段"},{"start":5678.111,"end":5692.39,"text":"這個過去除了集聚加大集聚的部分社會有一些因為現在四段的話是50度以上50度以上但基本上我們對於台水公司所提出來的檢討報告我們不預設綠場也不用設施框架"},{"start":5693.447,"end":5710.21,"text":"那如此一來可以讓他可以客觀的去看到任何的一個改善財務結構的一個可能改善財務結構也要顧民生那現在我們看到的這四段這個四個段51度以上的這部分大概都是民生在用電"},{"start":5711.011,"end":5716.494,"text":"那現在你們也有徵收這個耗水費嘛耗水費是單月的話大用戶的話超過9000度的話你們就耗水費每度增加3塊錢9000度是大用戶應該都是產業啦中小業還沒有啦"},{"start":5727.759,"end":5755.297,"text":"那未來我們自來水公司如果送出這個整個檢討報告表之後的話我們希望說你們可以在集聚裡面做一個調整做一個調整來讓保一定不要影響到民生用水的權利的範圍內才做調整那如果說你要增加的部分這個集聚的部分增加集聚的話也不要都沒有先跟我們產業溝通讓產業溝通之後都有所準備才不會影響他們整個作業這樣好不好"},{"start":5755.677,"end":5756.077,"text":"主席我想請賴次長賴次長"},{"start":5789.093,"end":5813.585,"text":"委員好市長早首先我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻尤其本席的家鄉雲林就受到次長許多的關心在水利署的時候推動了很多項的重大建設如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設這些計畫大幅提升了我國的防洪跟供水的能力"},{"start":5814.385,"end":5829.897,"text":"為國人帶來更安全更優質的水環境所以我真的非常的感謝次長剛剛呂毅林委員有提出的這個部分其實本席也非常的好奇就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙漲議題"},{"start":5832.759,"end":5841.889,"text":"那在上個禮拜五已經決定了動漲電價但是現在大家最最關心的就是那水價會不會漲呢那目前外界評估是說最快3月底會提出這個檢討方案那目前請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢"},{"start":5853.28,"end":5877.992,"text":"首先對於電的部分經過審議委會綜合的考量特別是國際的關稅的措施跟貿易的談判對於我們現在的經濟的影響這不確信性太大了所以大家認為說為了穩定物價照顧民生甚至要維持產業的競爭力我們希望說這次的不調漲但是過去因為"},{"start":5883.016,"end":5903.755,"text":"11年開始連續的三年這個國際的燃料價格大漲讓台電公司背負承擔民生的這個部分幾乎有2600億總體有6000億這個部分過去委員會也通過了追加減預算那我們希望這個部分可以透過立法院的院會的支持讓台電的財務結構"},{"start":5906.397,"end":5917.102,"text":"是會更好基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整了能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向台水的部分"},{"start":5935.871,"end":5965.049,"text":"大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調伏這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理"},{"start":5965.609,"end":5989.098,"text":"所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了"},{"start":5989.718,"end":6010.138,"text":"因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來在"},{"start":6010.737,"end":6030.123,"text":"整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量好這一點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢"},{"start":6033.772,"end":6051.347,"text":"基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本"},{"start":6051.707,"end":6063.394,"text":"那必須要有一個透明的時程 完整的評估 充分的說明那最重要的是 到目前為止 台水的漏水率還在11-12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水喔那所以與其長教 本席建議 不如先補漏洞否則呢 民眾也會覺得說 解水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人啊"},{"start":6078.784,"end":6097.064,"text":"臺水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右有希望可以繼續的行政院 左院長也提到降漏"},{"start":6098.075,"end":6117.13,"text":"是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個10%以下的這個目標目標是10%以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到10%"},{"start":6122.915,"end":6141.988,"text":"可不可以沒有委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣它當它改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話它每投資一塊錢它改善的這個效果慢慢就會就會進入到高原期趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年"},{"start":6144.329,"end":6156.174,"text":"提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好"},{"start":6166.769,"end":6193.481,"text":"那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過各國不夠不夠應該再提提高一點撥補台電就已經4年3000億了今年還想要再1000億明年還想要1000億台電一個人就花了5000億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給1000億太少了吧"},{"start":6194.697,"end":6217.499,"text":"所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了 台電一個人開要五千億 五千億開不夠 要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆 然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹 結果"},{"start":6219.221,"end":6227.828,"text":"才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生"},{"start":6240.299,"end":6258.017,"text":"那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢地層財政極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持"},{"start":6264.343,"end":6282.615,"text":"所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組 如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費"},{"start":6283.689,"end":6297.881,"text":"是尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是"},{"start":6302.104,"end":6330.956,"text":"飆非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區然後他的通洪"},{"start":6331.756,"end":6345.602,"text":"促進他的通行能力加大抽水站的能量這個是我們的目標好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權"},{"start":6361.27,"end":6377.945,"text":"例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制好 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝"},{"start":6388.52,"end":6400.728,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言人邀請次長來 次長"},{"start":6409.344,"end":6436.488,"text":"委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為"},{"start":6437.208,"end":6444.99,"text":"包括我們台中市面對強大的強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風24小時之內累計的降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的"},{"start":6466.377,"end":6484.316,"text":"这个豪暴雨它是大幅的一个减少不过在国科会跟环境部也提出报告未来平均退估降雨增加会有约15%那降雨的变化弧度也随着全球的一个软化"},{"start":6485.157,"end":6509.919,"text":"而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯"},{"start":6510.68,"end":6536.433,"text":"等於是月亮大但是我們淹水的面積跟中央一樣也是這個面積是有縮小的但是本席要在這邊講113年的凱米颱風為例雖然我們各項的工程都有發揮了效能出來但是我們看到這些極端的暴雨會造成中南部跟易淹水地區那您是專家請教"},{"start":6539.194,"end":6553.032,"text":"對於未來發展經濟部對於這個一煙水地區的防洪計劃你的具體措施跟你的目標那如何的能夠因應自己以台中市為例要怎麼樣來協助具體的方案請做說明"},{"start":6555.748,"end":6570.909,"text":"而且我也知道根据我们过去的努力我们淹水的面积台中市是有改善的对这是中央地方合作成功谢谢所以我们会再盘点整个台中市一淹水的地区可能不做十年前了"},{"start":6571.369,"end":6597.898,"text":"可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要增多增加那個滯洪跟儲留在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來容"},{"start":6598.778,"end":6623.86,"text":"這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要的也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視的清書"},{"start":6625.25,"end":6645.812,"text":"但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間所以把這個所謂的下水道 包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯 中央地方合作但是我們也要超減部署 因應"},{"start":6646.993,"end":6651.114,"text":"強教育以及這個暖化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電"},{"start":6666.059,"end":6678.353,"text":"的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先塵治水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水"},{"start":6685.08,"end":6710.659,"text":"但是DSET裡頭提出喔水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源呢這個提供是不確定性喔市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水呢是不是有預留這個評估請做說明"},{"start":6713.04,"end":6733.631,"text":"絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大"},{"start":6734.492,"end":6750.066,"text":"大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水"},{"start":6751.067,"end":6772.279,"text":"然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要"},{"start":6772.839,"end":6787.993,"text":"那麼遇到那個旱災的時候呢 我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清瘀 目前的清瘀狀況進度如何 而且我們的執行計畫如何進行 請做說明"},{"start":6791.161,"end":6814.783,"text":"我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個清淤量對 因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油"},{"start":6815.384,"end":6819.746,"text":"接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以呢當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且呢要經濟部"},{"start":6844.617,"end":6862.541,"text":"全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭 請做說明"},{"start":6870.806,"end":6876.634,"text":"首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲"},{"start":6884.355,"end":6904.599,"text":"這是第一點 第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電 我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家 韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高 他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法 我必須要跟你來討論重點"},{"start":6908.94,"end":6911.063,"text":"你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們同購的"},{"start":6926.383,"end":6935.249,"text":"這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價"},{"start":6953.94,"end":6961.823,"text":"要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做 核電會不會續用會不會續用 請教市長"},{"start":6973.935,"end":6990.535,"text":"首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好 這一句開放"},{"start":6992.077,"end":7019.509,"text":"你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核框法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送 有沒有這個計畫 請教"},{"start":7021.05,"end":7041.109,"text":"我們現在對於電的使用,我們依法行政啦,目前...會不會送?基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的當然行政院會不會送來啊,因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度,那請問行政院會不會送來?"},{"start":7042.613,"end":7066.037,"text":"他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛 環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價"},{"start":7072.416,"end":7089.862,"text":"我跟委員說明 即便我們用2016年以前的核能結構 能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格 我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的這個台電所提出來的這個成本還高於"},{"start":7090.382,"end":7096.803,"text":"市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比"},{"start":7116.027,"end":7135.499,"text":"能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補每一年的漲價加油是 謝謝電大大家用我們一起努力謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝張其凱委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘現在請張其凱委員做詢答親愛的市長"},{"start":7145.775,"end":7174.028,"text":"來 市長委員好市長好不容易啊 上個禮拜五電價審議委員會推翻了台電漲9%的這個漲價我們現在期待的是好好做改革"},{"start":7175.558,"end":7204.81,"text":"不只不要再漲了 可以降可是老實講我非常擔心我這幾天一拜五到今天我看經濟部發出來的新聞稿都是頭痛在移腳我是不曉得你們到底是沒有搞清楚真正的狀況還是故意在造謠我先請你來看一個 我們非常具體的來看來 市長你看一下 這是台電1月份的財報1月份啦 光是今年的1月份"},{"start":7206.032,"end":7231.484,"text":"台電又虧損了97億你看虧損最嚴重的是哪一個虧損的原因是什麼你應該是把那個虧損那個洞把它補起來對不對那目前 無論是氣的部分它的這個所謂的國際的價格還是相對於高檔左右所以我們會看到說它現在是有比這個外國人美"},{"start":7235.18,"end":7237.541,"text":"虧更多的啊光電虧了5.8啊風電虧了56億啊而且這樣很重要你知道嗎這兩個加起來才佔你所有發電量的8.5可是它賠掉你這個月的65%"},{"start":7255.765,"end":7259.448,"text":"你天然氣買那麼多你才賠了15億喔結果你買光電特別是風電佔我們所有發電量的8.5%可是你賠掉了"},{"start":7267.625,"end":7291.458,"text":"60幾億就是你一月份賠的65%100塊的賠的錢裡面有65%是風電跟光的風電跟光電沒有委員台電公司一年的支出近兆元他買綠電只有900億元以去年為例的話他只佔了13%他怎麼可能虧到五六千億這是不是你的財報表你看你的財報表所以這個我覺得跟你說的油跟電"},{"start":7297.662,"end":7306.072,"text":"油跟氣的這個價格還在相對於高檔的這個部分啊對啦 我是問你啦 哪個賠最多嘛"},{"start":7309.278,"end":7333.679,"text":"你可以講你的天然氣可能還賠了15億問題是你風電賠了56光電賠了5.8而且它量很少耶你的天然氣已經超過50%了對不對左邊不是我們的財報啦右邊這個才是啦那我跟委員所說明的啦核能佔比最高的韓國它超過了30%事實上它的電價漲幅還比我們更高"},{"start":7334.62,"end":7351.591,"text":"所以基本上我目前六千億的虧損為什麼說上個禮拜五電價審議委員會要討論這麼久我們逐一的還核算報告所委員所指導的部分事實上這些虧損不是台電的經營不善的主因市長市長你現在"},{"start":7352.592,"end":7372.851,"text":"要讓我們人民電價不只不要漲要降你現在可以看你破洞破在哪個地方嘛我已經很清楚跟你講破洞你看很清楚對不對破洞最大是哪裡?豐電嘛對不對而且如果從比例來看都是光啊就是再生能源啊那這個是可以改的第一個你現在開始在賣RE RE30對不對你要多賣一點第二個要買太貴的還有一個還有一個賺錢的呢"},{"start":7379.008,"end":7403.007,"text":"核能賺多少錢?核能在今年一月份還幫你們賺錢賺了八億多欸核能如果核一沒有重啟核二核三都可以用的話一年是一千億欸你把賺錢的一千億把它丟掉然後呢你在賽車農園這一塊你又多花錢你當然就漲價啊來 我再跟你講你現在最嚴重的問題你一直講天然氣的價格"},{"start":7408.442,"end":7437.847,"text":"一直漲上次在去年我第一次質詢這個王美花跟陳建仁院長的時候他們就已經承認這一點啊我們的天然氣在2022年跟2023年到達一個高峰對不對2023年兩年前就降下來了對不對你看一下這個趨勢圖看到沒有看到沒有到2025年現在的趨勢現在的天然氣是不是跟2018 2019只多了一點點來我要更進一步給你看看下一張圖"},{"start":7439.912,"end":7469.241,"text":"最近這三年天然氣的發電量跟購買金額你天然氣越買越多從110年的3260到112年3434到今年3296最嚴重是右邊你沒有發現它的平均單價已經在降了嘛結果你一直在對外講說我們的天然氣還是很貴113年有沒有比112年便宜有沒有有沒有降下來"},{"start":7471.032,"end":7472.735,"text":"這個數字並不是我們台電的財務的報表或是我們電價審議委員會所討論的部分"},{"start":7484.841,"end":7500.893,"text":"那事實上 討論重點是不是不是 市長你的意思是 基本上我們的貸價審議委員會有志之事 當初是很修正的我們這樣專家跟外部委員多了二分之一所以這一次他們做了一個非常公平的顧及到不要衝擊到物價不要衝擊到這個產業 很好啊可是你現在誤導啊"},{"start":7505.456,"end":7525.515,"text":"人家已經做了不要漲價而且要檢討你整個成本那我給你看的是非常具體的第一個天然氣在兩年前已經降下來了這個很清楚吧113年一度的話2.75比112年的3.17便宜很多吧這是天然氣第二個你的再生能源你的風跟電"},{"start":7526.946,"end":7537.674,"text":"光 確實買太貴嘛那我也知道你們現在改進了我今天又跟你講 R130你要趕快賣你用那貴的價格買進來 趕快賣出去對不對 這個漏洞就會變少來 我們看一下另外是核電的問題核電啦 核一跟核二核三一年差不多400多億度的電嘛 對不對"},{"start":7548.803,"end":7561.652,"text":"你現在核電一度 成本一塊多嘛你現在所有的電是三塊多嘛 對不對每賣一度電 大概會賺兩塊多啊400多億度 乘起來就是一千億耶好 所以我做個簡單總結那個 市長"},{"start":7565.08,"end":7579.937,"text":"第一不要一直在講天然氣成本高漲這個問題他在前年就這樣下來了第二個你的再生能源我今天給你看的是報表光是一月份的時候你的風跟電跟光就賠了那麼多"},{"start":7581.258,"end":7597.245,"text":"它占所有有總發電量的8點多%結果賠掉了你的60幾%這當然就是表示問題啊所以第一個你要去不要買那麼貴第二個買進來以後不用商店的價格賣出去你讓那個距離讓這個虧損可以減少第二個趕快重啟核電"},{"start":7601.067,"end":7620.762,"text":"今天教文委員會已經在審了我們先把法源通過之後我們可以做一個可以重啟核電 延長核電日本已經在重啟啊美國在重啟 南韓也在重啟啊你如果說南韓南韓就是電價太高啊所以他兩年多前他開始重啟核電啊讓他的電價可以降下來啊"},{"start":7621.903,"end":7635.775,"text":"人家全世界都在做那台灣到底是什麼全世界只有民進黨政府跟世界潮流要對算嗎並沒有並沒有我請那個總經理再說明包委員其實有很多數字都有問題啦你剛剛提很多都有問題包括第一個綠電綠電的部分"},{"start":7638.362,"end":7659.91,"text":"目前留在台電手上的囤購大概都是比較早期因為我們要鼓勵再生能源所以當時的囤購費比較高那部分還在台電其他的像今年的那些太陽能幾乎都便宜的都出去了所以也就是說再生能源繼續發展下去它的成本是會越來越低的所以一樣供應也是這個狀況你的再生能源到現在你價格還是在往上走對不對"},{"start":7660.67,"end":7682.293,"text":"價格大概今年到明年就是到頂的接著下來就是往下的到頂都還是很高啊我給他看一下發展再生能源是全世界各國的趨勢這個出奇的鼓勵是一定要做的總經理你看一下我們是理性物質科學在問政我們讓書記講話最近這三年再生能源這個價格你看110年平均單價多少"},{"start":7684.768,"end":7709.43,"text":"4.75到了112年上升5.20到了去年5.46欸一直在往上走欸當初蔡英文總統跟我們講我們買的這個再生能源這個量會變大以後價格就會降下來到現在不只沒降啊還是在漲啊所以已經持續在降了只是說各位你也知道那個數字整體量是慢慢往下但是今年的量"},{"start":7710.532,"end":7714.416,"text":"這個價格已經都是往下了就是這個價格我們還會檢視今年2016到2020氣價的均價是9塊到目前為止我們預估是15.4塊那基本上還是在相對的高檔"},{"start":7725.279,"end":7752.253,"text":"所以跟委員所說明的是我們經過這個討論事實上這兩年確實是一個國際燃料價格的一個高峰那現在雖然稍微委員講說有稍微降下來是回到這個情況對啊 降下來而且你從一月份看得出來嘛它虧損沒有那麼嚴重啦它跟疫情前的話來 我們做個結論啦它跟疫情前還是相對來天然氣在兩年前已經降下來了你說稍微高一點點也沒有造成你很嚴重的虧損你去跟風"},{"start":7755.354,"end":7761.617,"text":"風電跟光電比這個洞是最大的所以你要趕快去補這個最大的洞第二個大的洞就是核電跟112年的能源價格飛漲的一個狀況那剛剛委員所講的是舉兩年前的這個狀況這個"},{"start":7773.086,"end":7786.293,"text":"跟我們剛剛敘述的是不一樣的事情因為那兩年的話是虧了六千億欸所以你已經撥了三次三千億啊漲了四次電價啊漲了四十趴欸市長你們用人民的浪費錢民脂民膏三千億已經補上去了漲了四次的這個電價該補該補該把這兩年的該夠了吧該夠了吧不是不是"},{"start":7801.78,"end":7821.09,"text":"過去台電公司我們實質撥補給台電公司只有五百億其中兩千五百億是為了投資未來讓台電的電網更韌性韌性更好它是增資的增資不能來抵銷這個時候的開支的部分你已經漲了人民市市電價漲了四十幾趴你說這兩年的"},{"start":7825.812,"end":7849.688,"text":"還補不過來嗎而且現在已經回到這個原點了好 更重要的你現在開源節流嘛我告訴你你綠電趕快不要買那麼貴趕快多賣出去你的收入就會進來嘛對不對我看你的五大改革裡面有這一項嘛要多賣然後第二個核電我們今天教科文教文委員會已經在審了趕快重建核電比我們高出那麼多"},{"start":7850.709,"end":7869.902,"text":"它的價格成本比我們更高而且他們撥補的這個預算啊還曾經比我們現在台電公司所說的五百億元更高啊市長這是Composites用卡達夫形容的不是當然全世界美國連歐盟現在都在重啟核電嘛就是因為不只穩定電價是低的嘛"},{"start":7870.703,"end":7896.36,"text":"那你現在就是讓你現在既然有虧損當然就是用便宜的電啊所以才講到說核電是要重啟的第二個你買了太貴的這個再生能源你想辦法要買便宜一點嘛對不對第二個趕快把它賣出去嘛這個沒有爭議啊現在所有再生能源的平均的成本慢慢會下降另外事實上所新的一月份都還沒有降嘛再回到第一章一月份的看這個"},{"start":7897.541,"end":7919.507,"text":"你要跟人民交代為什麼核能一個月可以賺8億多你不要把它丟到水裡面去然後風電一個月損失了56億光電損失了5.8億你要跟人民交代是這個你要解決這兩個問題不是我不知道委員你藍色的左邊這個數字是怎麼去算的從你左邊右邊整理出來的啊沒有沒有那盈虧沒有這樣算法的啦"},{"start":7922.855,"end":7943.931,"text":"那你給我一個詳細的數目字好不好我們來對一下不知道在怎麼講怎麼對你就是買風電虧損是最嚴重嘛我們比例去看光電也是最嚴重那你一個禮拜內給我你說這個不夠精準你給我一個禮拜我們來對一下好不好我們跟全民交代更重要的是市長最重要"},{"start":7944.895,"end":7962.449,"text":"上個禮拜這是一個天大的好消息大家都鬆我一口氣人民鬆一口氣產業鬆一口氣那你們責任現在就是趕快去檢討整個能源界過什麼地方出問題再生能源核電對不對檢討好了以後10月份才不用漲電價啊可以降啊"},{"start":7963.442,"end":7978.152,"text":"一心努力啦好不好一心努力你一個禮拜給我你說這個不會精準一個禮拜給我一個明確的我們來對一下那到時候我們跟前面講到底哪個是比較準的好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7994.201,"end":7994.721,"text":"都還好"},{"start":8022.876,"end":8023.236,"text":"感謝您的參與"},{"start":8041.563,"end":8067.655,"text":"我當然知道你們不愛核冷卻啦 可是什麼事都在規劃我們都探望過去來 看到他也好在行 最好是他有信心我沒有說特殊的資本來講 他說現在會嗎所以我就說不問就是現在就是等一下再考慮他核酸是外港的 核酸是外國的因為西外交不開的會 他是秘密會 我不敢講"},{"start":8075.271,"end":8077.037,"text":"好啦好啦 算給你上吧"},{"start":8081.357,"end":8081.897,"text":"我現在很稀罕"},{"start":8115.795,"end":8118.939,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":8135.736,"end":8139.498,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":8159.031,"end":8159.051,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":8187.039,"end":8187.8,"text":"可以可以可以,謝謝"},{"start":8202.026,"end":8204.127,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":8236.565,"end":8236.805,"text":"我用這個"},{"start":8285.643,"end":8289.046,"text":"现在开始开会请郑天才委员做询答"},{"start":8311.353,"end":8311.594,"text":"等一下"},{"start":8343.121,"end":8370.644,"text":"主席 各位委員有請經濟部次長還有工業部次長黃次長兩位好今天的議題非常的好我們針對經濟部的報告裡面也特別提到"},{"start":8371.822,"end":8398.673,"text":"這個防洪治理將以流域系統性治水的五大策略進行這個這裡面都提了非常重要的這個治理的一個原則當然很重要的就是怎麼樣去落實執行落實執行我先把這個一些讓這個兩位了解一下"},{"start":8399.724,"end":8425.524,"text":"距離台東縣池上鄉望安溪上禮拜我也跟水利署的同仁還有八合集的同仁也去會刊像這個對於我們的農田造成了很大的損害只要一下大雨就會造成這樣的一個"},{"start":8428.271,"end":8455.43,"text":"而且這個如果這個一直在擴大的話也會影響到這個相關的橋所以這個部分是一個需要去加強去防治的一個部分當然這裡面有需要去進行的部分這個是屬於這個水利署的部分當然還有很多的我只是幾個幾個案例"},{"start":8456.618,"end":8482.286,"text":"那這個所以怎麼樣去加強防範是一個很重要的當然有的會涉及到人身安全那我們這個看這個農業部的這個農業部的我們以112年9月4號海葵颱風造成這個受風箱三邊路整個房子都淹埋都被淹埋這個"},{"start":8486.158,"end":8510.662,"text":"都不會買這個部分等一下請農業部說明一下這個112年到現在有沒有有沒有做一個整治如果還要查的話再把書面資料提供給我好不好這個都是直接的傷害這個這個也是"},{"start":8515.543,"end":8542.273,"text":"另外就是去年 去年這也是水利署的 那個農業部的 農業部水保署的康瑞颱風造成一里鎮延城部落這整個房子都淹埋了 都淹埋了所以這個部分 這個表示這個這個源頭 源頭沒有整治好就造成這樣 還好啊 人都沒有怎麼樣啊"},{"start":8543.582,"end":8558.96,"text":"所以這個部分是一個另外就是花蓮豐濱港口這個也是上面的土石流移下來先請經濟部次長"},{"start":8565.667,"end":8593.295,"text":"委員我們東部地區都是我們遭受颱風第一級的區域不管是台東或是花蓮去年行政院來支援這兩個縣市政府都有相關的傾訴的工作包括委員所提到的剛剛講的萬安溪的部分據我們了解它是沒有治理計畫的但是從照片中顯示我們必須要去做緊急的所謂的應急工程"},{"start":8593.795,"end":8621.585,"text":"那這個應急工程我們會用開口合約的方式會讓趕快去進場去把它應有的培後、應有的保護先把它做起來那總體上面的話我們還是回到我們原來的框架裡面系統性的治理針對縣市館的部分我們希望它加速去做整體的評估規劃包應該清書的地方去清書然後應該做治理工程的部分去做治理工程"},{"start":8622.305,"end":8642.532,"text":"至於協助地方政府的預算現在已經通過我們立法院的聯席委員會的一個審查我們希望趕快通過這個預算可以讓這個治理工作可以加緊來掌握住讓我們的民眾及早擺脫這些所謂的威脅以上"},{"start":8643.854,"end":8669.869,"text":"好 那個農業部要不要說明一下報告委員剛剛委員所提的幾個案例的話那我們在會後會提供詳細的書面報告跟委員報告我們相關復建的進度那第二個部分就是因為台東的這個部分因為如果颱風由東部而來的話它是直接的受封面所以特別是在一些河道彎區的這個地點特別容易成災區所以我們這個農村水保署"},{"start":8670.249,"end":8695.805,"text":"也增加了這些新增的這些潛勢溪流遇自災的這個地區那進行這個監控管理那也會一併的把這相關的這個資料提供給委員做參考以上好這個重要的這個無論是經濟部還是農業部重要的就是說除了提供資料之外很重要的就是要去"},{"start":8697.905,"end":8726.484,"text":"還沒有完成的要繼續的加強因為這個部分是已經造成這麼大的損害還好真的是人沒有怎麼樣所以這個部分是一個我們需要去加強把這個相關的經費其實這個應該都可以以這個相關的這些災害的這些遺患祭祭都應該去進行好 這個農業部先回座"},{"start":8727.608,"end":8755.661,"text":"那個次長經濟部這個我們現在接下來談這個水價的部分這個今天這個自來水公司要把這個水價的部分調漲是否調漲會送到這個經濟部這個請問一下次長現在有收到了嗎"},{"start":8757.572,"end":8782.887,"text":"台水公司剛剛已經有說明他今天下班前會把資料送到送出來那我們還沒看到資料我們不便於評價但是基本上站在經濟部的立場我們希望台水公司優先從自己的部分經營的部分可以去做檢討比如說台電公司過去做了檢討從四大面向不管說從生產"},{"start":8784.349,"end":8810.086,"text":"包括管理的部分可以減省那當然我們對於台水公司31年來因為水價沒有辦法調整然後沒有辦法去改善他的這個進水的措施我們要全面性的檢視台水公司的這個建議然後我們希望在優先不影響我們的社會經濟的發展然後照顧民生的這個原則之下來妥善的來檢視這個計畫的一個可行性這個"},{"start":8814.867,"end":8843.17,"text":"次長你最清楚了這個因為你在水利署很久事實上自來水公司第一個當然就是它的管線所謂的管線事實上都是公務預算都是經濟部水利署所有這個譬如說從沒有自來水到開始有自來水"},{"start":8844.501,"end":8869.473,"text":"都是政府的等於都是人民的納稅錢去興建這些自來水的相關的這些系統當然後來移交給這個自來水公司之後自來水公司有他的需要他負擔的部分沒有錯但是如果我們看整個政府以人民的納稅錢投入進去的"},{"start":8872.778,"end":8875.519,"text":"所以這個部分是我不認為是要調帳我不認為是要去調帳因為整個"},{"start":8882.264,"end":8901.735,"text":"幾乎的經費都是政府與人民的納稅錢所投入的這個給經濟部做一個重要的一個參考好 謝謝委員指教所以我是不建議希望應該不要調帳 謝謝好 謝謝委員指教好 謝謝我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答"},{"start":8912.383,"end":8915.946,"text":"好謝謝趙委員請賴次長賴次長次長好委員好那個滇教誠議委員會現在確定是不調漲嗎"},{"start":8927.918,"end":8945.247,"text":"那我之前其實也提出來了我也認為這個兩條路啦一個是政府的撥補一個是調漲電價但是調漲電價對於整個台灣的未來影響太重大了所以我認為其實應該走的是用政府撥補的方式是一個比較好的方式但是"},{"start":8946.207,"end":8959.174,"text":"整個國會其實並沒有支持啦所以我個人看法應該等到新民意出來之後讓民意來做最後決定也就是說七八月新的民意出來之後那如果新的民意認為還是應該要"},{"start":8962.395,"end":8978.791,"text":"這個不要撥補漲電價那當然就接受這樣的做法但是如果新民一出來是支持現在政府的方案由政府來撥補電價不要漲電價不要影響到民生的物價那我認為應該就採用這樣的方案次長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":8980.298,"end":9003.565,"text":"基本上目前台電的這個虧損是過去的這個能源價格飛漲所以我們現在爭取的撥補包括疫後的這個預算500億還有我們113年所提出來的最佳期預算1000億就是為了來彌補台電過去市長如果未來政府有撥補的話是不是就可以不調漲民生的電價"},{"start":9004.964,"end":9030.791,"text":"我們會優先從自己的體質的改善來做讓台電公司有一個健全的財務結構的體質如果政府撥補應該是可以不用調漲民生電價是吧這個部分在電價審議委員會裡面有去做一個檢討但是基本上我們希望說我們可以做的部分我們先做所以台電公司從去年年底開始他預估啊"},{"start":9031.784,"end":9053.073,"text":"雖然今年都是虧損因為這個電價沒有調轉的關係可以虧損達到這個500億元左右但是他自己開源節流他可以省了150億所以如果有撥補的話應該可以朝向部長電價這樣的方向來做這個我們可以來試圖來再盤點一下再看看"},{"start":9055.189,"end":9057.311,"text":"過去這段時間俄羅斯戰爭導致這個油料上漲有6000億的虧損主要的虧損在這邊那現在政府撥補多少進來的"},{"start":9065.977,"end":9078.626,"text":"500億所以其實還有5500的一個缺口那如果接下來如果未來有2000億再撥補進來的話那適度的一些撥補透過這幾年經濟成長不錯的狀況有盈餘的狀況來撥補我認為這個會比發現金是更好的方式發現金因為這個在解決的是讓民生讓物價不要波動這個對於整個國家的經濟體制這會對於整個民生幫助更大市長應該同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":9096.077,"end":9118.141,"text":"若是有這些錢進來的話對於台電公司改善他的財務體質會有非常大的一個正面幫助過去因為物價的上漲總共台電背負了6000億左右的支出因為電價被為主而調漲那其中就有2600億是屬於照顧民生照顧弱勢的部分"},{"start":9118.672,"end":9146.607,"text":"是我們希望還是朝這個方向有這個部分由政府來撥補政府有盈利有賺到錢由政府來撥補台電來減損這些減少這些民生的電價調漲而造成的整個物價的波動我認為這個對這個才是一個三贏的方案我認為這是三贏方案對人民好對國家好對台電也好所以我希望還是朝這個方向由七八月新民一出來之後我們希望取得支持之後那一樣由國家來撥補"},{"start":9147.768,"end":9151.011,"text":"不要來漲民生電價來繼續穩住我們的這個物價我認為這個對長遠的這個台灣的經濟發展整體上是比較好的謝謝委員的建議那113年追加解的預算1000億現在在朝野協商中也通過我們委員會也希望儘快的"},{"start":9164.603,"end":9188.593,"text":"這個部分就是能趕快的落實對於台電公司現在的這個虧損的狀況應該很可惜啦基金委員會專業的審查的意見其實到朝野協商都沒有被尊重啦我認為其實這個應該要嚴厲的譴責朝野協商這個機制基金委員會大家經過很多審慎思考多數委員這也長期都在委員會內對這個的思考跟敏感度更高的那經過了很多的思考像上次大概認為其實是凍結30億"},{"start":9191.374,"end":9211.841,"text":"這個就可以結果到了朝野協商是完全被刪除掉1000億完全不尊重經濟委員會裡面這個各朝野各政黨有藍有綠有白大家的一個共識我認為這個其實是不恰當的那我再問一下很多人在講說虧損的原因是包括說是綠電甚至包括核電次長是這樣子的嗎並不是這樣子的"},{"start":9215.517,"end":9238.038,"text":"從我們3月29我們在FB所提出來的就是委員現在這張slide的這個右下角這個圖卡可以看到即便我們恢復到我們2016年當時核能這個佔比高達16%的這個狀況以現在的這個燃油價格來算的話它的成本還是要將近4塊錢這是第一個第二個"},{"start":9242.81,"end":9267.907,"text":"我們鄰近的國家韓國他的核能的占比遠高於這個數值他政府撥補的這個預算他的虧損也是比我們台電公司更大過去幾年來台電一直努力不管是颱風風災我們看到說台電的員工很快速的復原請次長跟請經濟部要持續的說明現在有特定的人包括一些立委甚至有"},{"start":9269.147,"end":9282.291,"text":"廣軍不斷的這樣講講100遍 講1000遍就變事實了現在講的一副好像就是這些巨額的虧損是因為綠電的關係 肥自私 肥油油然後是因為核能的關係 這樣這樣的說法完全是一個錯誤的說法"},{"start":9285.812,"end":9312.367,"text":"這兩個的佔比非常的低而且扶持歷練本來就是國家政策的方向核能本來就是一個還要審慎評估的因為包含核廢料包含核能安全朝野都沒有達成共識嘛沒有共識的東西你用什麼規則這都是假議題啊用這樣的方式佔這麼低的佔比把六千億完全歸在這裡面這是在顛倒是非這是在模糊視聽我們認為經濟部要持續的說明不然一百次一千次假的就變真的這就是認知作戰好不好"},{"start":9313.024,"end":9327.452,"text":"是謝謝委員指教那我們也非常感謝台電員工過去的這個付出再來時間有限仁武區的去年淹水兩次從這個凱米到山陀兒次長也很熟悉治水的問題"},{"start":9328.814,"end":9346.914,"text":"市長 全力的支持仁武的這個積淹水問題好不好 11.2億 請盡速的到位同時間協助仁武 仁武是一個快速開發的一個區域那兩次的颱風 兩次的淹水 這真的是情何以堪所以我認為 請部裡面全力的支持這個治水經費 沒有問題吧"},{"start":9347.975,"end":9366.588,"text":"完全沒有問題 包括11.2億之外的我們還有將近12億左右 還有包括將近2.5億的應急工程我們都會全力來協助 這個都是我們盤點過必須要優先治理的一個區域這個都是在用在人物的這個工程上面嗎 是嗎"},{"start":9368.249,"end":9389.608,"text":"包括仁武啊 包括典寶溪周邊的那個啦它其實問題你一定要治本才有辦法去更遠的解決問題我們希望徹底解決這個仁武周邊的典寶溪周邊這些淹水的問題一個進步的城市 進步的國家真的不能 當然他們好語量超大啦但是我們還是要努力去克服減輕人民的痛苦"},{"start":9390.408,"end":9392.851,"text":"因為八控橋跟19萬的經費有4.2億今年會用減一款優先來做這個確定嘛對不對"},{"start":9399.889,"end":9424.159,"text":"這個是會我們用結餘款優先來進行包括測試的工作那有一些必須要去使用到用地的部分的話我們優先展開這個用地的處理所以這個4.2億今年就要來做了這個提早啟動提早完成可以減輕人民的一些這個風險這個請次長署長務必支持好沒問題嗎好我們會來列管好"},{"start":9424.679,"end":9439.415,"text":"另外啟京的排水我們也花了一億一億啦齁這個也謝謝市長這個是天文報草的這個預算對那我們能做的因為我們不可能請人民搬走了嘛他面臨這樣的問題但是我們能做的是透過堤防加高"},{"start":9440.195,"end":9467.04,"text":"內水的這個堵住然後把抽水機抽除吃個低化地區來優先這個也是在讓旗津這邊的鄉親減少包括大潮包括颱風來的時候的造成的積淹水問題這個也希望如期如質來完成從2025到2627我希望能夠如期如質甚至加快的完成這也請市長來列管來處理好嗎好謝謝好不好這請市長來加速列管好謝謝市長好謝謝委員"},{"start":9471.301,"end":9490.849,"text":"我們接下來請謝依鳳召委謝謝主席 我想要請賴次長 請農田水利署的蔡署長請次長跟署長 謝謝"},{"start":9496.323,"end":9510.142,"text":"委員好今年的汛期以及有沒有可能發生就是之前的百年大旱那個情況那我相信你們是不是對於相關的水情有重要的掌握"},{"start":9511.441,"end":9537.177,"text":"今年上半年的部分不會發生百年大旱的狀況因為我們中部以北的水庫啊蓄水率都有九成那第一期到座的整天期的這個用水都已經灌溉了然後接下來就會進入到本天期就是用水量比較少的但是我們密切來關注於春雨的降雨之外還有包括梅雨的這個降雨的可能因為我們所有的"},{"start":9537.757,"end":9564.364,"text":"防汛或是抗旱的這個準備工作是一年365天我們都會出示來盤點對 那請問一下就是現在有關於不管是我們未來的汛期有可能也會造成像去年的海米颱風一樣的這樣子的災情那對於水利署而言你可能認為說災情比過去更好了"},{"start":9564.864,"end":9588.315,"text":"但是對於民眾的損失以及對於他們安全的這樣相關的影響他們還是很重大啊尤其是在氣候變遷嚴峻的極端氣候的產生之下對於大家而言這個急降雨產生的情況以及最近急降溫"},{"start":9589.375,"end":9603.822,"text":"那對於這樣子農田水利以及我們水利署相關的這樣子的影響那你們有做好相關的因應嗎有如同委員所說的極端事變其實在我們來看就像大白鯊一樣"},{"start":9604.872,"end":9633.985,"text":"他來的很快而且對我們整體社會的這個損失也相當的大所以我們在今天的報告的第三頁跟第四頁特別提到五大措施這五大措施不管從整體性的治理改善還有減少淹水入家門加速退水以及防災應變的工作現在都已經在次第的實施我們希望在5月1號訊息來臨之前我們就可以去做充分的準備但是"},{"start":9635.376,"end":9655.138,"text":"依照國科會包括委員所呈現的數據顯示我們現在面臨到的這個狀況一年比一年可能更加的險峻所以行政委員為了要超前部署這些的狀況所以在去年成立了水及流域永續小組那這個小組是在解決委員所提的問題"},{"start":9656.576,"end":9681.321,"text":"是 那對於我提出來這個數字就是國家氣候變遷科學報告2024年的這個數字裡面他說有大部分大約14%的鄉鎮都會處於較高的洪水風險而且3%的鄉鎮淹水的情況是在現在的情況下就是已經有這個極端氣候的情況下會更加的嚴峻"},{"start":9682.461,"end":9706.934,"text":"那對於我們淹水風險升高的鄉鎮尤其在彰化那有面臨到海岸線的部分我們是排行第三名的這個就是說沿海地區的易淹的深度會超過1.5公尺的風險那你們有沒有提出相關的減災的這個措施呢第一個"},{"start":9708.137,"end":9719.705,"text":"我們整體的海岸防護計畫顯示彰化的海岸是一級防護海岸所以一級防護海岸就是剛剛委員所提到的情況發生的話它會產生三種以上的風險"},{"start":9720.953,"end":9738.976,"text":"包括爆草易淹的這個狀況而且彰化的沿海也是我們潮沙最大的區域所以我們現在所做的事情不管是從養攤還有包括從上游不斷的讓這些泥沙可以到河口甚至對於我們的海岸的防護會做"},{"start":9739.617,"end":9765.18,"text":"一些保護的工作之外我們都有做我們現在水利署的水利規劃實驗所針對於濁水溪它有做一個水工試驗怎麼樣讓濁水溪的泥沙慢慢的可以帶到河口然後隨著洋流主要的趨勢流可以保護我們彰化的海岸這些工作都已經在進行那未來我們也會依照國科會所推估的新的情境去套疊"},{"start":9766.567,"end":9791.566,"text":"套點了之後然後我們再來檢討我們的一起海岸防護計畫看哪一些需要加強的再來做加強好那農田水利署呢你們對於我們彰化縣的這個灌溉的取鉤那到底有沒有做好清汙以及我們在這個汛期來的時候有相關的這樣子防洪的這樣子的一個一個準備呢"},{"start":9791.966,"end":9808.148,"text":"是 非常感謝委員的垂詢 首先先跟委員報告那有關在今年度的這個全國的這個一席倒座的這個灌溉絕對都沒有問題 那因為我們做了非常多的這個調序空間還有一些智慧管理的機制那再來就是委員所垂詢到接下來這個"},{"start":9809.65,"end":9825.427,"text":"這個5月1號就進入這個訊期那事實上我們這幾年在這個居住改善的這個量能啊都比過往其實大非常的多那我們清淤 那麼除了用傳統的這個定期清淤還有這個農民到工作站通報以外那我們還增加了0800專線還有網路通報等等多元通報的機制啊"},{"start":9829.051,"end":9857.665,"text":"那我們現在就是平均處理這個清約的這個工作從這個8.2天到現在下降到4.3天那我們區定量也增加了百分之60億所以整體而言我們對於我們整個彰化地區的這個這個抗洪的這個量能事實上是大幅提升不過因為就像委員您的這個報告裡面非常的精準在這個AR6的這個情境的模擬之下那事實上我們後續要做的工作還非常多以上簡單報告"},{"start":9858.826,"end":9865.66,"text":"好 那對於市長對於現在大家所重視的另外的問題就是耗水費的這個"},{"start":9867.85,"end":9890.215,"text":"開徵 不是耗水費 就是水費會不會增加那如果在不影響民生的情況下會不會像2023年我們開徵耗水費一樣那你們開徵耗水費到現在以來有沒有辦法精準的就是說降低"},{"start":9892.356,"end":9912.243,"text":"可以增加我們的收入然後讓我們整個水的成本也可以減緩一些些那這樣子是不是會讓我們未來不用大幅度的增加水費而以耗水費的部分來做這樣相關的因應呢"},{"start":9912.563,"end":9941.109,"text":"好 首先這個耗水會的開徵感謝委員會的支持所以我們也順利開徵而這次開徵我們針對於用水9000度以上的這個部分來開徵全國大概有1600多那所收的這些耗水會會專款專用於改善輔導廠商用再生水甚至來支應我們枯旱期間的這個用水調度還有節水的作業那目前為止"},{"start":9943.17,"end":9969.886,"text":"這個我們徵收了這個狀況我們現在來看的話對於所謂的廠商它循環用水確實第一個產生很大的這個改善的一個狀況因為耗水費的開徵有一些誘因廠商可以去做這些工作那除此之外的話耗水費的這個開徵對於大用水戶節省用水量也是有相當大的幫助但是這個跟水價是不一樣的一個事情"},{"start":9970.586,"end":9989.258,"text":"因為耗水費它是一個所謂的特別功課就是課來就是專款要專用的那水費是基於使用者付費的原則那現在台水公司全國超過6.5萬多左右的這些的管路那逐漸的在老化"},{"start":9989.838,"end":10009.193,"text":"那台水公司也精進了他很多的降落的這個技術或是維修的技術我們可以看到這幾年不管是颱風、豪雨或是緊急的事變台水公司對於這些的緊急的應變的能力都逐次的在提升那我們會針對於台水公司今天所提出來"},{"start":10010.154,"end":10021.908,"text":"今天下班前他所會提出來這個報告全面性來檢視怎麼樣來協助台水公司來健全他的體質之外來符合我們委員會包括社會的祈求"},{"start":10022.657,"end":10047.834,"text":"好 谢谢但是我还有其实我对于你刚才做的那个手板就是你们对于说好像核能就是说用电就是比高达30%的那个南韩那他们的那个电费还是比我们大那其实你也知道说现在不管是美国以及欧洲国家都已经开始使用核能那即便是在成本这么高的情况下为什么大家要核能是不是"},{"start":10050.481,"end":10076.888,"text":"基本上我們對新核能技術的這個掌控台電公司都有去follow國際的訊息那甚至台電公司相關的這個同仁也會去看國外去看到這些他新的這個技術的一個開放的一個狀況但是我們對於能源的使用無論是新能源或是舊能源他基本上社會希望核能要安全的社會希望說"},{"start":10078.976,"end":10107.494,"text":"核廢料要能處理的那這些所謂的使用必須要有一些的共識基於這三個原則那我看國際的社會對於核能的一個使用也大概不外乎是跟我們國家所產生的這個原則一樣但是我還是要再次跟委員所說明的事情是韓國的核能佔比這麼高他不管是住宅用電跟工業的用電都遠高於我國所以基本上"},{"start":10108.803,"end":10134.376,"text":"在電價審議委員會還有包括我們在工作會議裡面檢視台電公司的財務報告裡面確實是在111年跟112年台電公司因為電價不為主額反映的部分它吸收的這個虧損是6000億其中有2600億是照顧民生的所以也之所以如此所以我們希望說爭取預算來撥補"},{"start":10137.824,"end":10160.583,"text":"這塊讓這個台電公司背負過去的所謂的燃料成本這個大幅上漲的這個累積的這個虧損讓他可以趕快的穩定下來然後他可以去前瞻未來包括他電網韌性的改善甚至很多新的綠能還有包括新的能源的措施的這個掌握好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝馮委員謝謝"},{"start":10167.216,"end":10192.744,"text":"我們接下來請一下邱志偉委員謝謝經濟部賴財務市長還有國科會林副主委賴市長 林副主委"},{"start":10199.055,"end":10219.148,"text":"市長今天的議題抗旱跟防洪基本上是兩個極端的議題他都希望說這個風調雨順但是事實上是天有不測風雲旱災跟水災並不是現在才有並不是因為完全是極端氣候造成的以前當然有水災也有旱災"},{"start":10220.461,"end":10238.022,"text":"那目前因為極端氣候造成說它發生的頻率會增加或者它的規模會擴大或者它不可測性會增加所以以我的觀察啦目前抗旱跟防洪不可能同時成立 對不對這兩個災害不可能同時發生嘛"},{"start":10238.846,"end":10264.396,"text":"水太縮 水太少 有時候一夕之間就反轉過去很多的記錄是對 以long term來看不可能說兩個致災性或者巨大致災不可能同時發生一定是有它的間歇性那以發生頻率來看我覺得是近幾年來大概有百年大旱因為那幾年颱風都沒進來那這個反而是如果說正常性一年有五六個颱風入境台灣"},{"start":10267.813,"end":10282.764,"text":"那它帶來的這個雨會造成自災性的這個水患反而它頻率比較大那我今天為什麼請這個國科會副主委國科會這個副主委請教一下科學園區的防洪"},{"start":10284.719,"end":10300.11,"text":"是你們負責還是水利署來負責園區是我們負責你們負責你們看你們報告完全沒有關於這個園區的防洪抗災防洪計劃不要說抗災啦防洪計劃就好了因為你今天只請中科為什麼南科沒有來"},{"start":10301.171,"end":10313.857,"text":"那個那個南科就沒有問題嗎不是是中科統一負責所有的業務那基本上我們都是照這個我覺得有問題輪值我們是輪值對還要輪值啊對對中科了解南科的這個這個繁紅的狀況嗎了解了解"},{"start":10316.738,"end":10343.969,"text":"因為我們都彙整到我們的那個國科會我們都是一起去討論的那如果南科發生這個自災性的這個洪災的時候我要打電話去中科請中科來支援啊不是不是我們是規劃的時候一起彙整而已這個你們要檢討一下我現在才知道說為什麼是中科負責全國科學園區未來科學園區越來越多連高雄、屏東、嘉義都有沒有跟委員報告是輪值可能明年就會換到那個"},{"start":10346.592,"end":10372.819,"text":"你應該是一個獨立的由南科有一個抗災防洪小組中科有一個小組然後竹科有一個小組他不可能輪值去管全國的科學園區的防洪或者這個防洪的規劃是是 更為您報告他是輪值彙整其實是各個園區自行規劃這個你們置入再檢討一下是好 那個今天的報告請教一下經濟部代次長"},{"start":10374.343,"end":10397.821,"text":"四月份北中南東各區召開防汛準備會議我認為應該是各縣市你應該落實到各縣市比如南區來說南區裡面包括澎湖、嘉義、雲南對不對到屏東這個各縣市的防洪狀況不一樣我認為你應該落實到各縣市多幾次的會議而已要講得真實"},{"start":10400.67,"end":10416.203,"text":"比方說這個高雄你有點寶溪治水防洪那個還有這個後津溪治水防洪屏東還有屏東的問題嘉義的問題台南的問題啊你不能一個區分市場你就把它辦完了沒有 跟委員所說明的"},{"start":10417.334,"end":10439.989,"text":"我們每一個縣市會從核酸分屬先檢討 如委員所說的方式每一個流域 每一個風險點都盤點出來那至於說四個分區的部分是把每一個縣市檢討出來可改善的部分在當地馬上就要處理了我認為應該是這樣擴大到各區分散到各區 然後縣市所長都要列席"},{"start":10441.767,"end":10447.004,"text":"因為縣市首長是第一線的指揮官所以我希望說要落實到各縣市"},{"start":10447.884,"end":10474.273,"text":"是 我們現在看到的話 各縣市的首長大部分都會在訊息之前召開當地的縣市的黃訊的會議那是地方型的 那是縣市主管的但你跟中央地方在訊息之中要怎麼合作我希望要落實以縣市為主好 謝謝委員建議 這我們再進進另外啊 對抽水站跟這個水門跟抽水機的管理你現在都委外對不對"},{"start":10475.968,"end":10503.979,"text":"基本上我們有自己的所謂的自己可以動用的這個抽水機很大部分是委外我知道嘛每一個抽水站大部分它有它這個委外的公司委外有管理員在那邊管理這個抽水站那個有時候開這個閘門要打開的時候沒打該關的時候沒關會造成自災所以這部分你要怎麼去檢討這個廠商的責任第一個所有的設施包括移動式的抽水機我們有一個QR code"},{"start":10504.639,"end":10530.431,"text":"他現在在哪個地方他的妥善率怎麼樣他這個馬上可以回傳聯繫的機制一定要很完整讓里長讓區長能夠迅速能夠掌握到這個水閘門的狀況什麼時候開什麼時候關什麼時候閉所以這部分是不是可以落實一下這個對水閘門或者這個戳水站戳水及相關的管理可以嗎這個我們已經有在但是委員所說的我們在盡興"},{"start":10531.96,"end":10544.204,"text":"另外這個再生水廠原本是在高雄是沒有在北高雄是沒有是臨海跟鳳山嘛那我這邊不曉得講了幾次之後才多了這個鋼橋那請內政部來好了鋼橋跟這個楠梓"},{"start":10548.365,"end":10562.199,"text":"好 那目前這兩個再生水廠當然是使你有這個汙水下水道 雨水下水道你才能有再生水廠對不對對好 再生水廠在這個市中心或者是在都會區市商隊可以的"},{"start":10563.348,"end":10589.634,"text":"所以才有這個條件可以設立這個南子戰車水場跟鋼橋戰車水場那也是我的大力爭取才有的這戰車水場是日後要提供於產業園區的廠商所使用對不對目前相關的辦法 比如說你們修正的戰車水辦法這個只要兩萬度以上的工業大戶 對不對要五成以上的這個戰車水的使用是不是有這個規定"},{"start":10591.33,"end":10619.757,"text":"好 如果這樣的規定的話 未來越來越多廠商進駐 而且都是大廠它每年一定超過兩萬度 你舊廠要新擴或者你要蓋新廠 譬如台積電未來可能有一廠 二廠 三廠 四廠 五廠還有相當的 相關其他的供應鏈也會進駐那你都要求到兩萬噸以上 他們都符合這個條件那你會不會供不應求 再問誰 目前以剛巧的狀況來看 跟男子"},{"start":10623.73,"end":10648.166,"text":"如果全部的廠商用水通通都要用再生水目前有這個供不應求的狀況是存在的我是特別針對這個所謂男子產業園區跟路族跟這個橋樓科學園區跟白浦未來白浦產業園區那麼多大型廠商的進駐你現在用這個條例以每年每三年要檢討一次而且還有五成的再生水但你未來沒有辦法供應他如果違法怎麼辦"},{"start":10651.428,"end":10673.066,"text":"跟委員說明就災生水的部分目前如果產業有這個需求我們會重新來加大災生水的一個供水的一個能量那你的能量就有限啊你剛才教男子我們努力原本是沒有原本是零我至於說才有7萬噸那7萬噸你可以符合未來他需求符合你法律規定的需求嗎的要求嗎都要用5成以上"},{"start":10677.176,"end":10705.049,"text":"現在它的價格 我要請教你再生水的每度大概多少錢那個以那個鳳山來講它大概是18塊18港橋大概是會到35塊35塊那很多的大廠都在港橋橋頭科學園區以及男子產業園區好 要30塊那你現在一般的供應用水一度多少錢一般的供應用水水價差不多12塊好"},{"start":10706.158,"end":10709.986,"text":"加上耗水費的14 零五個廠商你會選是什麼"},{"start":10715.37,"end":10743.23,"text":"那基本上這個耗水費是有針對於說不同的這個用戶的級距若是它回收率太低的話它的費率會更高有1700家用水大戶都是工業大戶對不對所以耗水費它對工業大戶也有產生去輸出力另外的它這個再生水的比例也符合這個也要按照這個規定那他們怎麼辦基本上你的供不應求市長"},{"start":10745.731,"end":10761.702,"text":"我們會第一個會請內政部加速那剛剛所提到的那個16座的這個再生水廠的建置之外除此之外因為他不是廠建完他就可以供水因為他要收集到都市的所謂的集中性 據我了解生產進場的進度遠比他們設廠的進度還慢"},{"start":10765.405,"end":10781.407,"text":"他們用戰爭水的時候還沒有供水啊你們給他用位以籌謀知道這個狀況如果不是因為我爭取才多了7萬噸否則你這個沒有辦法完成達成這個對高科技廠商或者這個用水大戶的這個戰爭水的供應"},{"start":10782.948,"end":10800.472,"text":"這部分我想請市長協調一下內政部 國土署 協調一下科學園區管理局相關於園區的治水防洪的作為應該有一個統一的主管機關由經濟部來督導 來協調"},{"start":10803.873,"end":10830.691,"text":"另外因為你們是治水專家嘛國科會不見得治水專家但是國科會所管的科學園區裡面的這個防洪治水也至關重要科學園區不能有淹水的問題所以你應該拉高層級由經濟部的這個水利專家經濟部水利署來針對各園區管理局科學園區另外針對這個再淹水的部分怎麼去檢討它的這個供應的問題另外這個"},{"start":10834.127,"end":10862.216,"text":"污水這個下水道啊污水下水道在內政部我也想請教一下過去都會區啊六都的都會區沒有問題但是六都裡面非都會區啊比方說我的選區是六都裡面高雄市裡面非都會區比方說從這個橋頭以北路竹永安這個彌陀子關比較海線的地方都沒有任何污水下水道的規劃了這部分這個內政部有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":10863.359,"end":10888.948,"text":"都計區內我們大概就是依照那個各縣政府提報的計畫來配合來協助來以補助執行至於非都地區目前我們行政院也在討論如何對非都地區的這些聚落室來做一個處理這個目前行政院在研議當中你知道我也想在鹿竹有一個蓋一個這個再生水場但是他沒有污水跟雨水下水道系統他就沒有辦法蓋再生水場"},{"start":10891.537,"end":10920.336,"text":"這個部分我們回去再來檢討一下啦那當然這個有跟量的問題啦如果那個沾水場實在量很少的時候其實它是完全不符成本的它可能後來算在水價廠商中的用不齊建構好污水、雨水、下水道系統才能有足夠的量嘛那你看我的選區全部都是沒有任何污水、下水道的建設規劃甚至沒有開辦這部分中央要協調地方來提出計畫所以我們再跟高雄市長再來討論好 謝謝"},{"start":10922.218,"end":10937.187,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請鄭正前委員做詢答謝主席 我想請一下賴長賜 謝謝賴市長"},{"start":10948.569,"end":10967.535,"text":"市長好謝謝主席今天特別安排一個防洪抗旱的一個計畫專報因為你本來就是這方面的一個專家那我想說首先先關心一下就是目前石門水庫到新竹鐵通道目前進度如何進度是超前的大概有相近30"},{"start":10970.749,"end":10995.282,"text":"30%左右OK 超前是因為我們往後延了一年嘛我們本來是115年超前不是往後延一年那往後延一年的部分以後我們是還考慮到包括一些物價啦的一個上漲還有包括我們現金流量不足因為現在的預算是有限的所以說你說基本上現在這個狀態是按照115年的進度就已經是超前了嗎"},{"start":10998.69,"end":11016.765,"text":"這個據我了解他應該可以稍微提前完工可以提前完工提前完工是按照116年的一個延後計畫是可以提前完工是這個意思嗎116年他是計畫期程那我們希望說依照比較計畫的期程來提前大概可以提前到什麼時候"},{"start":11018.732,"end":11033.802,"text":"大概116年左右116年 上半年嗎應該我們會希望在上半年 假如完工的話他會有一些比較顯著的效益因為一般我們缺水會在上半年的時候發生那我在想說"},{"start":11034.982,"end":11062.324,"text":"除了這個部分我們持續在追蹤這個進度之外因為這整個珍珠川的計畫其實算是一個好的計畫可是要怎麼樣把它落實是重要的那我想說在針對這個新竹的防災及備援水井的建置工程這邊的時候之前有特別提到要增加17口備援井已經完工了沒有13口的這個備援水井這個在109年跟110年之後已經完成了"},{"start":11063.024,"end":11080.176,"text":"那這個部分包括舊的部分現在都已經提前啟用現在保熱水庫可以蓄水率是蠻酷的有一部分是在我們透過地瓢水跟地下水聯合運用的結果理解所以說我們這17口井是包含之前的14口嗎"},{"start":11082.709,"end":11108.604,"text":"對 包含原本的十字口總共是17口井嘛 對不對那我想問一下因為我們現在這17口井的時候每日最多是供3.2萬噸嘛我看所有資料是這樣在寫可是我們當時在十字口井的時候呢我們當時就擔心到地層下陷的問題所以在千甲地區這邊的時候會造成地層下陷所以包括影響到那個投錢溪大橋68快速道路"},{"start":11109.284,"end":11129.307,"text":"然後台鐵、縱貫線、國道1號、高速公路等等他們橋墩的狀態所以對於這個部分的時候我們在使用這個備援井的部分有沒有什麼特別的一個限制使用備援井的部分第一個就是不要因為我提前使用備援井然後對於地表水或是農業灌溉用水可能會有影響"},{"start":11130.387,"end":11146.596,"text":"那第二個部分是其實這些配顏水井既然我們鑿在那裡我們就是評估過他對於地層下限不會有問題的都不會有問題即使每天抽很長的時間都不會有問題基本上我們會做一個所謂的安全抽取量的控制"},{"start":11147.947,"end":11175.766,"text":"OK 好 那這個沒有問題因為我在想說在新竹這個區域當中的時候其實大家對於這個供水的狀態其實是有點擔心的那因為那個我們按照那個DSET就是我們就是國科會下面的一個研究機構科學民主與社會研究中心他所提出來狀態是他認為因為未來先進製程會因為半導體產業的一個途徑式的需求會在2036年缺水"},{"start":11176.607,"end":11202.099,"text":"我想市長應該知道這個狀態對不對那個報告我有看過那個報告所引用的數字可能他研究的期間是在我們百年大旱之前那我們百年大旱之後剛剛委員所詢問到兩個重大工程包括所謂的聯通管包括蝙蝠水井這一些都是百年大旱之後我們就緊急提出來的趨利水資源計畫形勢已經不一樣了第一個"},{"start":11203.76,"end":11216.011,"text":"目前半寶體不管是新建中的或是運作中的先進的製程用水我們各個區域都是供給大於需求供給大於需求不會有問題"},{"start":11217.111,"end":11240.865,"text":"所以第二個部分因為半導體高科技的廠商他承諾加入RE100所以他新建的這個廠區依照我們再生水資源發展條例他必須要使用一定比例的再生水而目前我們看到的不管是在新竹或是在高雄地區他承諾使用的比例都是遠高於法規的比例"},{"start":11241.721,"end":11258.215,"text":"那除此之外的話我們加速了包括台水公司19條的備沿幹管還有包括我們海水淡化廠這些蓋了之後事實上即便面對百年大旱的情境也都不會有問題不會蓄水率只有3%"},{"start":11261.277,"end":11275.704,"text":"因為你剛剛講的其實很清楚因為你剛又提到一個海淡廠的部分因為新竹有建海淡廠那因為新竹建海淡廠一天10萬公噸的狀態剛好跟寶山二期台積電就是二奈米廠的量是一樣的"},{"start":11276.784,"end":11300.962,"text":"因為台積電這邊是9.7萬每一天所以說我們當時就會在想說海淡廠這邊可能跟台積電用水量是有相關的可是我想請教次長你知道在晶圓廠當中的時候它的用水當中的結構它需要有很大量的一個超純淨水這超純淨水的部分你知道它要用到多少的一個它使用水量的占比嗎"},{"start":11301.983,"end":11324.484,"text":"它使用水量的占比在製程的部分差不多是將近七成五左右七成六這圖上面這邊有很清楚狀態那因為整個先進製程當中的時候它的超純水的占比需要用到76%那我們這邊提到了有很多的再生水的狀態跟海淡水的部分它基本上都不能夠用的"},{"start":11324.864,"end":11344.756,"text":"所以它必須要用到水庫的一個原本的自然水的狀態所以我們到時候這邊的時候是用一個大水庫的概念的時候讓海淡水跟再生水都用在消費上面還是要怎麼樣去做一個調整第一個"},{"start":11345.905,"end":11368.373,"text":"假設你剛剛講的這個高科技的用水是10萬噸左右他第一個他自己廠內的一直循環佔了三分之一那其他的三分之二由外部的水來補給那外部的水來補給的話事實上再生水的使用在即便是台南的先進製程都證實是沒有問題的"},{"start":11372.011,"end":11389.813,"text":"你說再生水的部分在台南的先進製程證實是沒有問題是哪一個先進製程他們自己也建了兩萬噸的再生水廠來運用所以這個部分是沒有問題的至於說海水淡化的部分過去"},{"start":11390.273,"end":11406.053,"text":"他們擔心所謂的微量的捧的元素那這個捧的元素也因為科技的發展跟進步它可以去去除或是在製程上面它可以去做調節但是我還是要跟委員講我們做水這些供水的工程"},{"start":11407.014,"end":11423.345,"text":"不是只為了高科技廠商使用我們是要讓整個區域裡面就如同委員所說的大系統大水庫的部分可以穩定那它在穩定的一個情況之下的話產業也可以發展民生的用水也可以穩定這是我們的目標"},{"start":11424.502,"end":11441.096,"text":"OK那我覺得這邊我要特別問到一個狀態因為在今年1月份的時候就是當時在刪減凍結預算的時候水利署這邊有特別提到的狀態是說因為它會減少100口的備用水井的啟用調查請問現在情況還是這樣子嗎"},{"start":11443.393,"end":11461.739,"text":"因為這114年的總預算我們大概被刪減了將近23億左右那這些所謂的剛剛的備用全國的備用水準這不是只有新竹市而已我們本來希望加速來完成加速來調查"},{"start":11462.839,"end":11472.631,"text":"那這個因為預算的縮減的關係我們期程必須要重新再做檢查那100口調查的狀態是預計大概會有多少井是可以去開鑿的"},{"start":11475.562,"end":11498.858,"text":"這個就是我們要做調查的一個目的因為我在看到一下我們之前所有的相關的一個預算的部分因為在整個水利署的預算比去年增加了204.4億增加百分之一點百分之100.8%那麼在第三幕的一個水利建設跟保育管理經費當中的時候呢比去年增加202億多了113%那麼在第四節當中的那個"},{"start":11505.722,"end":11531.493,"text":"河川海岸及排水環境營造這個部分的也比去年增加了66.4%其中跟地下水保育及水文觀測計畫裡面下面的備用水井規劃調查及雙北地區建置計畫只有3億元所以我想知道說你剛剛提到說整個經濟部被刪了23億的時候有多少會反映在這個地方會影響到這個部分"},{"start":11532.333,"end":11557.382,"text":"影響事實上蠻大的雖然說114年水利署的預算比113年還多他主要是第一個他是要投資未來第二個部分他是要去解決113年連續三個大颱風所造成的這些的災害所以我特別關注在一個就是備援警的這個部分因為"},{"start":11558.682,"end":11581.178,"text":"經濟部這邊提出來的狀態是說因為被山跟洞的狀態所以影響到備援井的部分所以會影響到整個抗旱的一個量能所以我對這部分想說這麼多2000多億的一個經濟部預算裡面只有3億是跟這個有關的可是他竟然用這個部分的時候來表示說會影響到整個的抗旱的一個計畫"},{"start":11582.139,"end":11598.879,"text":"所以針對這個部分我想說你把這個三億到時候會怎麼樣受影響會對於這些備援警這一百口備援警的狀態你給本席一個很詳細的狀態因為我很難從整個兩千多億的預算當中去影響到這三億的部分"},{"start":11599.7,"end":11621.36,"text":"然後3的部分又非常的少我們在一輪二輪的時候對於整個檢列數都非常的低而且真的有影響的狀況是凍結的部分凍結的部分你們提出說明就可以所以我比較難去理解說水利署說這一百口抗旱井會影響到抗旱的一個量能所以我想請市長這邊給我本席很清楚的一個狀態"},{"start":11622.441,"end":11640.406,"text":"因為他本身所佔的預算就很低我們又沒有刪那動的部分的時候你們提出來狀態應該就可以解決所以我不太能夠去理解為什麼這一百口被援警的調查會影響到整個抗旱的那個量能這資料我會送給委員那第二個部分是"},{"start":11641.687,"end":11662.703,"text":"那麼大的預算 其實每個預算他都有一個工作計劃 這個每個工作計劃都有他的需要性另外一個部分 剛剛我們沒有討論到的因為在經濟部的部分 坦白說我們整個經濟部因為在經濟部裡面被刪的部分已經算是非常的少了 我們在一輪當中的時候檢列數只有少少的"},{"start":11665.049,"end":11687.956,"text":"只有少少的一筆而已齁 其實非常的少啦所以有時候那個關鍵的少數對關鍵的工作就沒問題 所以我想知道說這個這麼兩千多億的預算當中的三億當中在備援警當中的時候 他的關鍵到哪裡去你請給本席一個很清楚的一個說法好不好好 好 沒有問題好 謝謝 我們現在請陳昌明委員做詢答"},{"start":11699.06,"end":11705.861,"text":"主席好 首先有請我們農業部我們的黃處長黃處長市委員好黃處長好今年我們專案在討論防洪抗旱但是我看農業部的報告裡面有農業水庫要增加清一苗栗縣的農業水庫有幾座"},{"start":11730.294,"end":11743.019,"text":"一共有三座一共有三座,算很內行,很快清楚狀況哪三座?明德、大埔還有一個是?"},{"start":11750.732,"end":11769.177,"text":"比较小你都忘记了,你看大不看小,叫做建坛水库,在造桥。我期盼了很久,以前农业水库要找水利子他都不管,他说是农业部的,今天我终于等到你了,看你们的报告有增加了一条。"},{"start":11770.077,"end":11786.755,"text":"就是農業水庫要清理那這三個水庫大埔水庫還有明德水庫還有建壇水庫啊現在主管單位是在哪裡我要好好找到他要好好的去研究是我們農水省啦我會帶你去會勘"},{"start":11790.239,"end":11807.807,"text":"尤其大埔水庫是鄰近的科學延期竹蘭的科學延期苗栗縣兩個重症 投溫症跟竹蘭症所以那個真的要強那個汙泥到夏天的時候很臭啊今天你們提出計畫能不能幫我改善完成"},{"start":11808.601,"end":11831.414,"text":"那至於免得水庫在乾旱的時候我有去看過那時全都在水歷史那邊你們農業部分的很少所以這樣本來要清一結果要清不清的樣子看起來是勉強而清我希望啊次長這個幫我加強改善好不好好的委員這些部分我們都會在我們的預算裡面大力的來執行"},{"start":11832.634,"end":11841.799,"text":"這說完我會持續的追蹤蔡市長我再帶你去苗栗一下謝謝再來請我們的經濟部次我們的賴市長賴市長"},{"start":11851.383,"end":11870.346,"text":"委員好賴次長好你當了次長隨意使跟國營事業都是你在監督管理的單位那我們高雄來的賴瑞榮委員非常優秀我非常欣佩但是關於"},{"start":11871.65,"end":11887.965,"text":"他說啊這次電價調整不調整是將來要留給新民意啊我想說我算幾年以後什麼叫做新民意信從他叫做新民意不信從就不是新民意嘛"},{"start":11888.971,"end":11909.47,"text":"他講的也明喔這次所謂不調整電價是為了要留給市民你不要這樣炒作啊南部的也不要有這樣難易的觀念啦跟委員會說明我們在審議委員會的話完全沒有討論到這個議題他講的很清純就是要留給大罷免用的"},{"start":11910.211,"end":11936.991,"text":"不增加定位如果定位一增加的時候民眾會反感他為了大罷免案所以你們執政黨不敢調整定價我感覺你們都沒有贊成是因為關稅的措施不敢做任何一場判現在對於各國對於經濟的前景甚至為物價的波動委員會的審查任何的擔憂還是你所指定的人你大了解"},{"start":11938.328,"end":11945.494,"text":"增資2500億你們用增資說不是補貼的再增加500億3000億你們電價調整到現在已經多收了1600億你們5000億的資本額已經給你們4600億在那一邊了怎麼會歸得那麼厲害啊"},{"start":11957.985,"end":11978.883,"text":"我們是要面對問題我們是講你們的政策有錯誤啦當然裡面還要再去了解一下你也好好了解一下你剛剛過來我不好意思逼問了太緊但是不要有這種觀念為了大罷免不調整電價讓百姓覺得它是一種恩惠不是這樣去處理事情沒有 台電的負債比已經達到93%了"},{"start":11982.866,"end":12000.295,"text":"你看 即便台電公司員工非常的努力這個狀況還是要改善都為了一時的利益 政黨的利益不要這麼做啊 我真的警告啦習近平沒有成功的時候 他要怎麼辦大家做事情要合理公平公正嘛"},{"start":12001.656,"end":12013.176,"text":"不要這樣亂講不是他亂講因為他是我尊重的委員可能他要選高雄市長我幫他宣傳一下好不好再來我們水利市"},{"start":12016.953,"end":12034.673,"text":"恭喜啊,林市長,我看你報告寫得很好,有水的時候無災,用水有度,再來你說水清衣油非常的完美,台灣真的是一個美好的社會。"},{"start":12035.974,"end":12063.675,"text":"但是我只是說我為省議員到現在幾十年看水利局到水利市真的把主要的河川出要河川都整治的確確實實不錯我們中央管理的河川還有幾條主要的河川確實從水利局到現在已經進步很多那你今天提出來我非常欣賞的一句話就是怎樣全流域的治理"},{"start":12064.395,"end":12086.024,"text":"就是整條街要安裝,洪水來的時候要怎樣去釋散掉那位處長你現在是變成導師我怎麼特別說這樣,我今天要特別提到,我一直在提但是不曉得是中匯的欠缺,離地山上是屬於農業部的"},{"start":12087.503,"end":12114.236,"text":"那個裡面是在管理的那一個地方我們比較看不到在深山裡面再來深山一出來到一般的河流的時候就開始要整治這裡面也有農業部的水保室但是在這裡我一直在看剛剛你們講到淡化廠賴市長你淡化廠你們水利市一共騙了多少億算都幾千億"},{"start":12119.864,"end":12129.408,"text":"一個廠差不多是300多億包括建設包括營運那建設的部分那因為我們是20年所以我一直在講我還在研究這個問題"},{"start":12135.368,"end":12162.725,"text":"講到南部的滯洪池南部的滯洪池裡面少了一樣什麼叫做滯洪池要加湖流水這樣才有真正的效應因為我看過湖流水我這些年看不起這樣東西結果你們歷史做的湖流水缺水的時候真的很有需要你要往下去存水抽出來所以說彰化廠你不只把這個湖流水滯洪池做在那邊"},{"start":12163.726,"end":12191.902,"text":"你依照你的流域下來看它的那個高度怎麼樣你們要去排像你一潭水庫要供應給我們縣里跟通宵的結果你們都農業水都沒有用我一直在強調一件事情那個丘陵地的凹地你就去把它看這個水路怎麼走你們不要啦把它當成住房池又加了浮流水你們反而不準"},{"start":12192.822,"end":12215.549,"text":"阿咱水包括溶水使得在灌溉水 你們說喔 溶液用水浪費很多你就在海邊靠近最低的地方把那些水灌溉的時候沒有用的水全部把它存到那個地方土地要買你也要買 要吃你也要吃因為真正要改潔之道在這個地方尤其"},{"start":12218.055,"end":12230.326,"text":"廖處長 你在水利市的時候還做了一個開花裡面要有什麼排水流量就是水源都把它存起來 水要湊出來 你就要這樣啦你只要檔劃廠蓋那個整層面不然台灣人做千福之國 那裡面起來 東西不準"},{"start":12237.952,"end":12264.56,"text":"又能防治防洪水災來最少你有消化的地方你這樣在地上活你也真不...啊我們現在怎樣飲水就是地方自己的排水溝管理不好像高雄哪裡有溝我來做水管我集中在這裡把它蓋掉你那普通的水溝不清當然會淹水啦這是有轉型跟沒轉型天天都在講自己有多好"},{"start":12265.509,"end":12279.711,"text":"要了解經濟災,我現在還說依照這樣,自防池加浮力水,自防池加浮力水大膽的去做真的台灣才會不缺水,才會說你們有水無災"},{"start":12281.033,"end":12304.748,"text":"用水的時候大家高興用一點,不覺得怎麼樣,不要急急急急。當然像今年,我相信你水過了,你要注意防洪的問題,今年沒有旱災。但是我剛剛講的,我不曉得你們看法怎麼樣,丘陵地到處哪裡都可以做我們的自容池,要加湖流水啊。"},{"start":12306.081,"end":12313.956,"text":"像桃園你看到很多的水塘災你再找辦法改進做湖流水嘛那澳大利亞這次就要挑出來"},{"start":12315.023,"end":12342.955,"text":"水源不斷我是醜人但是我摸過這個地方天天在跑天天被罵罵到有血淚這樣一點姿勢我不知道會不會痛你告訴我謝謝委員指導的意見多元的水資源的供給就是我們的政策目標而委員所提到方案裡面涉及到許多需要科學調查的部分在經濟部的地方中心針對於九大的地下水分區水文地址都有很好的調查"},{"start":12343.755,"end":12354.425,"text":"也是因為這些調查包括水利署下游的地下水的調查所以我們在百年大旱每找一口井它的出水量都達到我們預期的目標但是浮流水是很好的一個水源但是要看地質狀況"},{"start":12366.036,"end":12387.287,"text":"所以我們現在對水資源開發是適地適用,然後多元開發,還有倍元我告訴你,我告訴你幾十年了,你今天要告訴我現在先去處長,我通宵的秋蓮地,縣里的秋蓮地那個地方我說你們去做一個做王子水庫兼美化的作用"},{"start":12387.967,"end":12412.086,"text":"那根本會改變當地的一個休閒產業,這點你能答應我現在你就提出這個結尾,我自己跟你們說,我自己跟你們說現在海地都沒有錢,都幾千億都用在擔保這個就是行政院之所以要成立水及流域永續推動小組的目的好啦,次長講得那麼早,你想什麼計畫我只要你把我們實現當是你們承諾要做的啦"},{"start":12412.726,"end":12436.687,"text":"你們只說趴著,水沒有流逝,打井下來又抽不到水,都是表面的河口的崩潰啊我是很真心的講,好不好?你只是你的領域市長,我帶你們去看怎麼去做因為真的會做下來很漂亮,當地修行觀光產業會活化"},{"start":12439.301,"end":12458.975,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導不是是啊 阿市長你要怎麼請誰來做喔 我要找你來看喔 好嗎好 要多時間 請委員長指導沒有沒有 你們稍稍給我回答一下我是跟中共事情很緊的人好不好 拜託一下這幾個問題解決 我頭就不會變得那麼白了 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請"},{"start":12467.076,"end":12468.517,"text":"中午我们不休息延长开会时间到巡打结束"},{"start":12486.85,"end":12495.638,"text":"主席在堂委員先進列席的政府金融市場官員會長官員夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部耐次長和水利署的林署長也請農業部的黃次長和漁業署的陳副署長"},{"start":12503.424,"end":12531.653,"text":"好 委員好次長好 署長好 副署長好這個漁溫設施配合黃紅要合理認定那麼設施農業可以減少災損那推廣以租代購好 首先請教我們的賴署長那個河川地可以設置漁溫嗎河川地經過評估在我們的管理辦法裡面我們漁溫經過許可之後是可以的是可以的經過水理分析無妨礙河防安全者在河川管理法第62條"},{"start":12533.41,"end":12561.423,"text":"好 那個黃市長你知道我們屏東喔 很多河川地 現在我們台灣是黃溪型的啦冰箱是沒水喔 那河川地喔 很多農民在利用啦那副署長 副署長 陳副署長是有交情過你去屏東嘛 是屏東 屏北地區是不是很多漁民的 漁民是設在河川地上面是冰箱是我們水利單位在管理嘛好 那我請問一下水利署漁民的所有設施都被允許設在河川地裡面嗎"},{"start":12566.856,"end":12582.567,"text":"只要剛剛特別談到無防礙我們水流是可以設置的沒有問題在去年的9月13號就是為了能夠讓離港地區的養殖漁業用地那樣合法申請嘛他們也去登記了但是呢都遇到一個問題"},{"start":12586.311,"end":12614.204,"text":"河川橋 都說你這個坩仔啦 放鋼管啦 底部的坩仔啦一個很明顯的問題 你們就知道肥料喔 飼料啦 飼料在餘溫旁邊 它一定有炸 因為怕弄壞嘛但是呢 你們說 那個是行水區所以呢 飼料它不能炸 能有蚊子 蚊子把它封起來 怕人家吐掉但是那就沒有辦法達到你那個飼料間可以防禦的效果啊 怎麼解決 有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":12617.094,"end":12640.863,"text":"因為在這個高灘地裡面如果加蓋類似這種庫房的建築物的話我們都希望它有透水性有透水性那你要市民弄到危起來那恐怕就是那你市民沒危就好,那池子就斷了所以這個有一些技術我們盡量是能夠透水的方式來處理來,次長來,次長有沒有辦法請我們的水利主管機關的協助農業部門餘溫來認定"},{"start":12644.504,"end":12664.372,"text":"現在基本上所謂的工具間只要在一定的規模不造成妨礙水流的狀態之下但是事實上我們現在七合分數去現場看的很多是超過我們諸位想像的我瞭解那一些的部分對於水流是沒有錯我完全支持所以我希望說認定標準要一致"},{"start":12665.172,"end":12685.143,"text":"你要知道這個漁民會活動比高 為什麼他會失業 我也不知道了解齁 所以我希望說次長請指示我們水利署配合我們漁政農政單位下去做合理的認定好嗎 標準把它抓出來那漁民才知道說什麼可以做什麼不可以做 好不好 可以齁好 沒有問題接下來我們請黃次長來來黃次長 風災農損怎麼解"},{"start":12692.492,"end":12716.027,"text":"氣候變遷我們只能靠政府的現金救助嗎我們也會強化我們的農業的韌性所以基本上在一些田間管理還有這個作物的這個焊作或者是輪作的這個部分我們都會來加強我們的輔導好謝謝 其實你們有一個做法除了現金救助之外你們農業部做了一個調查其實呢一般來講我們的現金救助平均每年只有31億"},{"start":12717.749,"end":12728.505,"text":"農業損失大概在121億其實大部分是農民呢他七到八成是自己要承擔所以你們是鼓勵農業保險嘛對不對是除了農業保險還有什麼方式可以減少農民的災損"},{"start":12730.68,"end":12750.513,"text":"是不是我們透過設施農業對不對 氣溫如果露天的容易受損嘛 如果室內的養殖比較不會如果你是溫室的設施 它可以擋風可以避雨還可以防蟲是不是這樣子所以農業部有要鼓勵設施農業來減少包括天災不管是旱災水災的這樣的一個損害嗎"},{"start":12753.685,"end":12778.787,"text":"對於這個方面,我們一直都有在鼓勵好,但是問題來了,來下一頁為什麼農民他們比較不願轉從設施農業呢?因為他的建築成本確實很高對,建築成本很高,你馬上知道,我要跟你請教的那農民沒有負擔,那怎麼解決?我們的農民就是有地有技術,他有流動力,但是他沒有資金所以我們一直,我一直在推廣農業部呢用我們本來對農民給他貸款,通稅貸三分之一啦,對不對?"},{"start":12779.588,"end":12806.546,"text":"但是三分之一也算是啦所以我就覺得說有沒有可能未來的農業會轉向農企那農企本身它的經營方式它有能力去做貸款的設定那是不是說地主農民提供土地農企業去辦你專案貸款興建設施農民還可以進來承租這個設施來使用像小黃瓜啦這個茄子啦或者說其他的檳榔廢原轉做的設施農業部支不支持"},{"start":12807.571,"end":12826.431,"text":"對於委員這樣子把這個由這個農企業的這個部分事實上確實是也是一個選項那不過跟目前的這個我們台灣的小農的這個部分的話可能還是有一些落差但是我們願意來思考沒有錯台灣的農業是小農為主但是現在變成是老農小農變老農了 青農沒有地"},{"start":12828.933,"end":12848.667,"text":"也沒有資金但是呢 今天老農有地 親農有勞動力如果透過農企業的介入 透過 您是管農業金庫跟農金署嗎獨島啦另外一個市長獨島另外一個市長獨島 我記得是你 今天特別問你這一題那我今天選錯是不是另外一個市長是哪一位市長是"},{"start":12851.021,"end":12873.494,"text":"胡赤是胡赤在負責是吧好那不過這個事情我會再跟你們部長講簡單兩個結論請農業部加強輔導農民投入設施農業的栽培並評估由農企業來協助興建由我們農業部以租代購的方式來協助他們那也金剛那個署長也還有我們次長也下去了就是經濟部水利署請就實況研擬適當規範輔導我們的水產養殖戶在河川地上合法經營可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":12880.435,"end":12883.156,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請參議員做詢答好 謝謝主席那我們是不是先請經濟部次長來 次長"},{"start":12910.953,"end":12937.554,"text":"好市長市長那今天事實上我們討論整個議題那我想先就一個比較初步的議題就是我們關於再生能源的兌售費率那事實上我們知道從所謂再生能源發展條例在2009年正式刪讀然後在2010年這是這應該是馬英九執政的時候當年的費率是11塊到12塊9"},{"start":12940.66,"end":12956.193,"text":"已經將近13塊那後來當然就逐年調降那一直到了我們看這一個圖表到了2020年的時候正式降到3.9塊那到了今年2025年是降到了3.5至5.7這個區段"},{"start":12958.655,"end":12980.794,"text":"好所以我們看到整個太陽能的一個再生能源的一個發展隨著他技術的一個進步那以及他的發電效能的提高是讓短壽費率也是逐年的調降那我想要請教的是說那如果2010年最早期的這樣的一個太陽能的設備這個短壽費率勒11塊的到底到什麼時候才會結束"},{"start":12985.473,"end":13010.973,"text":"現在的話就你們的了解他這個20年到期就會結束了日後隨著剛剛委員所說的成本降低那很多的所謂的發電廠商或是綠能發電廠商他就可以職工到市場他不需要透過這些的制度了好沒關係那是另外的那我想要問的是說如果他20年到了到了之後他可以再要求續約嗎"},{"start":13017.784,"end":13037.531,"text":"他執照20年 20年到了之後他如果要續約他要先申請展延他的執照那每次是10年那到時候看看台電公司有沒有電力需求如果要續約就跟台電公司續約不過現在來講新的太陽光電大部分都是賣給需要綠電的人大部分都賣到業界去了"},{"start":13038.031,"end":13056.991,"text":"現在的會賣給綠電但是如果以當年11塊的未必會賣給綠電所以我要問的就是說他們如果許願要展延的話他會回到現在的3.5塊還是還在11塊的水平會回到現在的3.5塊因為他重新開始了重新開始嘛他只用展延"},{"start":13058.512,"end":13079.185,"text":"這個要確定喔我要講的重點就是這樣因為早期的太陽能的准售費率非常的高那如果你還讓他用11塊的展延的話這樣是不合理的 完全不對的不會啦好我這一塊確認那第二個就是說如果要申請展延的話我們可不可以要求他替換太陽能板"},{"start":13081.26,"end":13103.855,"text":"這個要看他我們可以我們希望他換但是通常他那個之前20年的成本已經回收他發電成本是非常低的所以他看看他到時候的市場狀況他有沒有意願但是這個我要請你們去評估因為早年的太陽能板的發電效率跟現在比起來差很多是的所以如果你可以用早年的太陽能板"},{"start":13104.535,"end":13130.46,"text":"然後去要求他更換才可以再給他另外一個展延的等收費率而且等收費率要符合現在的我覺得這件事情反而是對於台電才是符合經濟效益的我們可以來評估好不好這件事要加速評估好不好不要拖太久因為雖然20年還沒有到但是我想今年已經2025了嘛如果你這樣看起來大概這兩三年會有陸續出現到期的狀況"},{"start":13132.96,"end":13152.846,"text":"所以愛慰與籌謀應該要先要先有一些因應好不好好那我們接下來再請我們次長是不是先留著我們再請農業部黃次長以及我們國科會沒有國科會不用那個內政部國土管理署副署長來我要請教我們現在在於"},{"start":13161.55,"end":13177.004,"text":"外省鼎州的這個布沙計畫這個我想次長很清楚因為次長在水利署的時候事實上這案我一直在追那外省鼎州的布沙計畫原本他是要用在布袋山港清淤的那些嗨沙"},{"start":13177.985,"end":13198.118,"text":"要從布袋山崗用船運把它帶到外山頂洲這是最原始的計畫但是這個船運的運費是龐大的所以我們後面我們用一個替代方式就是說現在布袋山崗為了蓋海淡廠所以他們就是直接把這些土方去在海淡廠做填海造陸"},{"start":13199.499,"end":13211.184,"text":"這沒有問題嘛 那外傘頂州的問題要怎麼解決呢我在過年前 我開了一個地方的協調會那我就是主要是說 是不是協調包括漁業署 內政部這邊趕快來變更計畫就是直接從外傘頂州的東側直接做抽砂的方式 然後抽到外傘頂州的西側然後把整個那個砂園把它墊高"},{"start":13225.67,"end":13250.733,"text":"墊高之後就防止海浪那些海浪打過去就把他沖刷下去就是說要把它墊高的這個動作非常的重要那透過抽砂的相對成本最低那我想要請教我們相關的部會因為我們當時我都有邀請你們來召開我們地方的公聽會那這個案件的整體的變更計畫那目前這個程序是走到哪邊了"},{"start":13251.864,"end":13261.217,"text":"第一個整體的外山警州的保護計畫水利署絕對會持續來做不是只有全數的方案"},{"start":13261.823,"end":13283.596,"text":"那剛剛委員所說的沙園的部分 前述的方案確實如此但是依照這個新的需求 包括新的情勢的變化從委員所講的外山頂中的東側去抽沙之外 另外可能河口的部分可以多抽沙 這些也是可以那我們會請水利署來做相關計畫的這個修正 因為"},{"start":13284.236,"end":13302.001,"text":"最後準博的是在內政部因為它是海岸的主管機關市長我知道站在經濟部的角度你們會支持那現在整個變更計畫因為它是行政院的一個上位計畫那要變更這個計畫是不是要從內政部這邊所以是不是國土署這邊了解這個進度嗎"},{"start":13305.556,"end":13322.135,"text":"那這個 報委員今天 因為這個不在今天議題內我是會後 好沒關係 他們就再回覆委員你們回去回覆一下 說這個進度因為從過年前到現在已經過了三個月了那我們想要趕在今年年中前把計畫變更完畢那這樣至少可以趕在"},{"start":13323.055,"end":13350.753,"text":"看年底因為年底他必須要訊息結束年底或者是明年可以執行好不好所以這個要緊好那我們再問一下也是延續剛剛類似的一個問題請教我們這個經濟部賴次長那整個我剛剛講的那布袋這邊填海造陸填海造陸未來就是要興建這個海水氮化廠那這個填海造陸的計畫目前目前進行到什麼階段"},{"start":13352.298,"end":13378.236,"text":"我們今年大概六月底之前會把相關的環說書啊去送到那個環境部去進行環境影響評估的審查實施作業進入到程序裡面所以今年六月會送到環境部對對那你們預估在什麼時候可以正式開始來進行這個計畫如果以你們正常的判斷的話"},{"start":13380.083,"end":13393.275,"text":"因為這個環境影響評估的審查我們必須要尊重專業委員不過過去相關的案例大概是一年左右的這個審查的話我們是預估說只要說一年能夠通過審查後面的話大概是六"},{"start":13395.236,"end":13411.372,"text":"所以我們現在是期待這一案是不是在就是如果這樣抓起來大概在明年的大概在明年的年中左右可以把這個環評來完成審查如果沒有什麼意外的話大概是第四季啦明年的第四季我們希望說"},{"start":13413.117,"end":13432.931,"text":"以中為始嘛我們希望因為這個海蛋廠對嘉義非常重要我們希望在121年之前就可以完成這些的建設好我覺得所有的工程的細節啦以及要協調的我們應該都要掌握好不要去讓它拖到了好不好好謝謝市長好謝謝蔡昭緯我們現在請葉元之委員做詢問"},{"start":13455.764,"end":13457.807,"text":"麻煩請經理部次長 謝謝賴次長委員好我剛剛有看您的詢問你是提到說我們現在的水費還不確定會不會漲對不對"},{"start":13475.6,"end":13502.498,"text":"那看評估報告我們總體專業的來審視之後再來說還不確定但因為這幾天那個水價要不要漲的消息已經滿天飛了我有看到有的報導是說水價平均漲幅兩成六三成四成都有還講說那個水價可能會影響到七百多萬戶這個是我看到的報導但我因為我這樣問的問題是因為我很怕他會跟那個電價"},{"start":13504.383,"end":13520.354,"text":"電價是現在確定上週是動漲嘛對吧可是因為現在的物價因為大家有一個預期的心態就認為說本來以為是電價會漲所以很多像一些餐廳啊或者是很多產業它都已經漲價了"},{"start":13521.775,"end":13535.761,"text":"他是一個反映一個預期心態然後結果現在動漲表示說店價不漲了不漲了可是很多餐廳漲了他預期漲上去之後他不會調降下來因為那個物價有僵固性"},{"start":13536.946,"end":13564.765,"text":"所以我是想要跟經濟部提醒一下像類似這樣的消息是不是可以等到確定的時候再對外說明不要造成大家的這種預期心理然後造成物價波動不知道可不可以這個當然是沒有問題的因為這個物價的波動影響我們的民生所以基本上我們也期待委員運用你的影響力因為這個媒體報導所刊的並不是我們的方案"},{"start":13569.407,"end":13590.575,"text":"因為是你們的影響力我們當然也會做這個部分因為我今天在委員會裡面說明了多次那我們也請台水公司包括水利署甚至我們國營國營司來一起就這個問題慎重的來檢討那當然還沒有檢討之前的話任何現在媒體的報導都不是我們的方案"},{"start":13591.789,"end":13619.47,"text":"好 第二個喔那個上週電價的那個委員會啊還包括那個經營部你們對外的說明你們是說那個電價台電虧損的原因是因為主要是因為物料是成本提高嘛 是不是是的是嗎但是最近好像我看那個相關的資料來比如說我們進口的煤炭啊還有天然氣啊他們的那個價格都修正到之前的水準了對吧都降下來了吧"},{"start":13622.072,"end":13644.531,"text":"現在我們電價審議委員會就所有的電的發電主要的燃料不管是電我現在看到全球主要天然氣的期貨價格還有進口的這個氣價的部分在2020之前是9塊錢到目前為止的話我們預估是用15.4塊錢來預估的"},{"start":13646.687,"end":13669.425,"text":"然後煤價的部分這2016到2020是80塊現在的話幾乎是120到130塊左右所以還在跟這個戰爭之前還是相對的高檔所以目前為止這個部分的這個價格還是蠻高的那我們現在台電所產生的累積到去年年底4229億的虧損完全是這幾年"},{"start":13674.777,"end":13703.626,"text":"這個非常出來然後我們吸收這個市長再來我再跟你請教另外一個議題就是現在因為大家現在關心就是美國他們可能會把我們列為就是骯髒十五國之一那我之前有問財政部財政部都一直沒有證實因為他說還不確定但是川普現在最新的說法是不管這是不是骯髒十五國只要被認為說有貿易障礙或者是有不對等關稅的話通通都會提出一些貿易的相關措施"},{"start":13704.347,"end":13723.403,"text":"那現在經濟部有針對我們可能受到的影響的產業有做盤點嗎請問一下我們現在比較容易受到產業有哪些基本上我們跟美國的合作是非常的密切的那現在所謂的我的問題很明確啦就是說你們現在盤點的我們可能會受到的產業有哪些"},{"start":13724.554,"end":13741.082,"text":"基本上因為他現在也沒有說明確哪一些的部分是怎麼樣我們密切的觀察比如說他現在已經講了像關稅就會調賞那當然你沒有評估過汽車業會不會受影響還有其他的汽車零組件會不會受影響都還沒嗎都還沒評估"},{"start":13742.95,"end":13757.958,"text":"有做相關情境的模擬跟方案的因應但是最終美國政府在4月2號我知道那所以現在現在評估比較有可能受到的產業影響的產業有哪些這個部分我們當然有全面性的一個檢討"},{"start":13759.739,"end":13783.045,"text":"不是啦,我在問你問題耶,不是你有在全面檢討,我知道你有檢討才問你嘛你現在受到影響的產業有哪些?就是那種委員說的啦,因為不確定的因素我們先講的話,那造成的預期心理,那不是造成一些不必要的恐慌嗎?不是,你這樣講我就覺得你好像沒評估耶,我剛剛看新聞好像說昨天沒有相關的部會還跟總統去做報告"},{"start":13784.09,"end":13812.35,"text":"但是今天好像你也講不太出來所以如果你講不太出來的話那你做報告那這個報告有什麼只是讓大家感覺你有做事但實際上有沒有做我們有評估有配套可是我跟委員說我光是在新聞上看到的都比你講的多了包括汽車產業可能媒體報導講說汽車產業可能不會受太大的影響但是有一些汽車零組件比如說有的分析師指出有22項都有受到影響他們講的都比你還要多"},{"start":13813.635,"end":13828.978,"text":"所以你到底是有評估還是沒評估是 確實是有的確實是有 那是 只是不能講是不是有這一些 我們最後看到這個4月2號出來的結果當然我們一系列的配套措施就會立刻公佈是不是 好好 謝謝"},{"start":13833.425,"end":13836.108,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":13850.62,"end":13863.017,"text":"我们现在请赖会员委员做询答赖会员委员赖会员委员不在我们现在请陈冠廷委员做询答陈冠廷陈冠廷委员不在我们现在请罗明才委员做询答罗明才罗明才委员不在"},{"start":13865.913,"end":13866.093,"text":"謝謝大家下會"}]}},{"id":"16555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16555","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e84f0cb0beb0459e0bdae56b7a60aa52c1c35f50c34d2eafab3c79d36619ee0b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務OBU，國際保險業務OIU，國際證券業務OSU)」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-31","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-31T08:31:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-31T12:02:00+08:00","duration":12653,"影片長度":"03:30:53","委員發言時間":"08:31:07 - 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在場的委員為那個為主導法定的人事所以那個議事錄我們暫時不確定請議事人員先讀今日的議程"},{"start":1866.738,"end":1895.051,"text":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融財政部中央銀行國家發展委員會及法務部就如何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略包括國際金融業務OBU國際保險業務OIU國際證券業務OSU進行專庭報告並被質詢宣布完畢好 謝謝我首先先介紹在場的委員我們先介紹吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":1907.856,"end":1928.59,"text":"還有王世堅委員請問各位委員對於上一次議事錄有沒有意義沒有意義 那我們的議事錄確定接著我介紹我們在場的官員首先我先介紹金管會主委彭主委"},{"start":1931.65,"end":1960.808,"text":"還有金管會金融市場發展及創新處胡處長還有我們的銀行局代理局長莊秀妍還有我們證取局我們的張局長還有保險局王局長檢察局佟局長"},{"start":1963.817,"end":1990.511,"text":"那我們台灣證件交易所那個林修銘董事長李愛玲總經理那我們吉堡中心林秉輝董事長陳德湘總經理以及櫃買中心簡立中董事長還有陳立青總經理"},{"start":1993.462,"end":2020.098,"text":"那我們再依序介紹財政部政務次長阮次長國庫署陳署長戶稅署副署長黎副署長官務署蘇淑珍副署長國有財產署副署長王采業副署長資訊中心副主任李副主任"},{"start":2022.884,"end":2034.714,"text":"中央銀行副總裁朱美麗副總裁外匯局蔡局長國發會經濟發展處邱處長房屋部法律事務司司長劉英秀"},{"start":2045.93,"end":2059.977,"text":"好 今日議程安排 我們邀請金融監督管理委員會 彭金榮主委財政部 中央銀行 國家發展委員會及法務部就如何促進台灣金融市場"},{"start":2062.595,"end":2082.921,"text":"規模發展的執行策略包括國際金融業務OBU還有國際金融業務OIU還有國際證件業務OSU進行專題報告那我們現在請那個金管會彭主委進行專題報告那其他的單位我們就是請參閱好 主委請"},{"start":2088.803,"end":2101.892,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位媒體朋友 大家早安承蒙貴委員會今天邀請本會就如何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略包括OBU OIU OSU進行專題報告進行指教"},{"start":2104.153,"end":2128.61,"text":"本會以建立安全與發展並進的新金融市場為施政主軸在確保金融安全穩定的前提下全力促進金融市場之發展在市場發展面向本會將依循向貴委員會業務報告所提六大重要策略中以打造具台灣特色的亞洲資產管理中心推動金融科技發展與綠色轉型金融為重點引導帶動金融產業之永續發展"},{"start":2131.414,"end":2145.891,"text":"以下分別就各策略說明依打造具台灣特色亞洲資產管理中心推動情形本會於去年9月10日正式公布五大計畫16項重點策略並於10月24日於貴委員會報告本會持續依計畫加強推動"},{"start":2151.858,"end":2179.394,"text":"期望達成兩年有感之目標在兩年中預計完成54項以上的法規鬆綁與業務開放以金融資產管理規模增加4兆為目標截至今年2月底資產管理規模已達34兆餘元較計畫推動前增加2.5兆截至3月已完成19項以上的鬆綁並開放13項以上的業務項目僅就目前的重要進度說明"},{"start":2180.434,"end":2199.191,"text":"壯大本國資產管理規模部分放寬全權委託規定吸引國內外機構資金全權委託國內業者操作放寬保險業立官人從事全權委託交易支項目及限額開放主動ETF及被動式多資產ETF"},{"start":2200.512,"end":2222.205,"text":"透過政策誘因引導外國資產管理業者加大對台灣之投資開放外部資產管理公司EAM設立積極吸引國外資產管理業者設立據點吸引資金回流中央與地方協力設立地方資產管理專區協同高雄市政府提供行政與費用補助等誘因共同規劃推動資產管理專區"},{"start":2225.014,"end":2233.102,"text":"定定金融業申請進駐地方資產管理專區事辦業務作業原則進行集體業務事辦針對財富管理高資產客戶業務OBU境外高資產客戶業務跨境業務OIU OSU投信投顧與證券業等大幅鬆綁法規開放超過20項以上的事辦新業務"},{"start":2247.577,"end":2267.658,"text":"透過專區一站式金融服務多元化商品提供金融機構共同合作強化境內外資產管理質量更重要的是強化專區業務之洗錢防治作業及風險管理措施具體成果包括主動式ETF及被動式多重資產ETF目前已有6家業者送件合計7檔基金"},{"start":2269.335,"end":2289.209,"text":"截至今年2月投信投顧總管理資產達13.4兆元較同期增加2.9兆元並有16家銀行與高雄市政府簽署合作意向書《券商投信投顧與保險業易積及評估》中在這兩天將會公布金融業申請進駐地方資產管理專區事辦業務作業原則預計4月開放金融機構申請最快7月正式進駐營運"},{"start":2299.997,"end":2310.662,"text":"推動普惠與永續融合分階段推動具台灣特色之個人投資儲蓄專戶TESA第一階段透過公司協力由吉保公司協助全體國人"},{"start":2312.133,"end":2329.215,"text":"建立個人TESA管理帳戶預計今年上半年完成規劃上限開放申請第二階段持續與相關部會延伤租稅及其他誘因增加TESA普及率及參與率推動永續綠色金融商品培訓資產管理人才推出金融大回饋計畫"},{"start":2330.676,"end":2351.01,"text":"為讓金融市場發展成果 讓全民共享 落實普惠金融金管會將推出相關計畫 課證盤點 金融業現行各項回饋基層員工 消費者及社會大眾之措施未來就可推動措施 提出建議並與金融總會共同研商預計今年下半年提出具體措施"},{"start":2352.091,"end":2361.026,"text":"目前具體已有發行11檔永續發展債券共157億元以及成功發行首檔中小企業永續轉換公司債並上櫃金額125億元"},{"start":2366.531,"end":2389.845,"text":"財富管理促進計畫 全面開放私人銀行業務 已於今年3月3日全面放寬銀行辦理高資產客戶私人銀行業務之申請條件也開放了投信投顧事業辦理家族辦公室整合顧問服務 亦同時於地方資產管理專區進行試辦並增進OBU財富管理業務 OSU交易便利及OIU多元化商品"},{"start":2391.443,"end":2415.963,"text":"總共在增進銀行國際金融業務分行OBU海外資產管理功能部分開放多項業務以及簡化外國人OSU網路開戶作業下單身份認證方式以及開放OSU對境外客戶辦理不限用途借貸款項制業務延長OIU租稅10年法案並以送大院審議中推動OIU設計新種商品"},{"start":2416.963,"end":2443.049,"text":"目前已核准14家銀行辦理本項業務高資產客戶人數達1萬2千餘人資產管理規模達1.48兆較去年同期增加5千餘人及5千7百億元是促進公共債券及證券化吸引資金投入公建已請證交所及櫃買中心組成公建證券化專案團隊資本市場服務團協助各政府部門辦理相關業務"},{"start":2444.93,"end":2450.557,"text":"並放寬保險業投資公共建設及PE創投事業所適用的風險係數由10.18降為1.28並擴大保險業資金參與公共投資之範圍納入依促參法及其他法令規定之公共建設項目"},{"start":2463.032,"end":2472.857,"text":"並嚴厲頭信頭顧法部分修正條文送大院審議也擬修正保險業於一定額度內投資創投事業得適用較低風險係數放寬證券商及頭信事業轉投資或受託管理之PVVC放資銷售管道"},{"start":2479.765,"end":2501.267,"text":"擴大保險業資金可投資國內私募股權基金之範圍我們持續請證交所及櫃買中心推動股市壯大計畫協助優質新興產業加速進入資本市場吸引更多新創企業申請上市並於今年1月6號取消創新版合格投資人限制今晚會議加速推動跨境ETF相互掛牌"},{"start":2501.907,"end":2518.399,"text":"並以公告日本正式成為境外ETF基金註冊地及基金管理機構所在地具體成果目前創新版加速掛牌計20家 迄今成交金額145億已達113年全年249億之58%日均量3.15億為過去之3倍今年第三季預計會有首檔的台日ETF掛牌目前已有兩檔台股ETF"},{"start":2529.626,"end":2548.268,"text":"存托憑證於泰國證券交易所掛牌上市跨部會協商合作本項計畫為行政院經濟發展委員會下重要計畫之一其中涉及多部會間的合作協調非常感謝各部會的協助財政部協助支持延長OIU及OSU的租稅優惠以及"},{"start":2549.62,"end":2573.539,"text":"協助各級政府辦理發債作業鼓勵公股銀行進駐地方資產管理專區亦協助提供TISA相關租稅之建議中央銀行對推動地方資產管理專區事辦業務項目經本會拜會中央銀行提供諸多建議並獲支持並協助OIU商品多元化調整國人每年累積結匯金額國發會執行兆元投資國家發展計畫協助政府發展"},{"start":2577.943,"end":2596.462,"text":"發行證券化永續債等增進公建金融商品提供保險業投資公共建設私募股權基金機會環境部及經濟部協助共同推動ESCO引導保險業推動能源技術服務產業法務部協助有關家族信託法這次調整與解釋"},{"start":2597.643,"end":2615.968,"text":"三、透過金融科技創新帶動金融發展本會持續加強推動金融科技事辦業務執行影譜尋光計畫鼓勵金融科技創新應用並評估修正金融科技發展與創新實驗條例成立金融科技產業發展聯盟進行團體合作協同推動技術創新與市場擴展"},{"start":2621.71,"end":2638.448,"text":"成立RWA代幣化小組測試實體資產代幣化的可行性推行虛擬資產保管業務之主題式業務事辦6月底提出虛擬資產服務專法草案送行政院並將開放申請數位保險公司及調整存網營業務範圍"},{"start":2640.47,"end":2656.37,"text":"推動金融行動身份識別標準化機制本會將持續推動各項措施促進金融科技之創新推動整體金融市場之進步4 推動永續金融驅動淨零轉型及金融發展金融業透過"},{"start":2657.491,"end":2668.421,"text":"轉型金融、永續發展債券、綠色壽信及ESG基金等金融市場工具支持加速低碳技術突破與市場擴展提升企業競爭力同時開創新的投資機會實現金融與產業雙贏"},{"start":2674.861,"end":2704.081,"text":"金管會將持續與金融業緊密合作及跨部會溝通協調目標不僅是壯大台灣金融產業更要提升在全球資產管理領域的競爭力期望透過整合資源串接各類金融商品服務提供更具彈性與客製化的一站式金融服務吸引國內外資金達成流載引資帶動台灣金融業與整體經濟發展並達成均衡台灣回饋社會之願景以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2706.842,"end":2726.774,"text":"好 謝謝主委那現在開始詢答 先做以下的宣告每一位初期的委員花園的時間是8分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘每一位列席的委員花園的時間是5分鐘今天上午10點我們截止花園的登記現在依序登記的順序請第一位林德虎委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":2742.478,"end":2748.32,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席首先是不是請那個金管會彭主委主委你好主委我請教因為媒體報導OIU免稅優惠延長10年那當然目的就是推動亞洲資產管理中心那我請問主委"},{"start":2771.667,"end":2786.163,"text":"OIU實施免稅優惠對整個國際金融、證券以及保險業務所得狀況金管會有沒有統計或評估相關的這些業務所得的消長"},{"start":2787.744,"end":2809.569,"text":"會受到哪些的影響?我們在3歐裡面OIU的發展相對是比較晚的然後再來就是過去因為疫情的關係實際上OIU在過去有一陣子呢其實上它的發展是受到一些限制但是因為我們這次推出了亞洲資產管理中心裡面有個境外金融的整合"},{"start":2810.149,"end":2826.387,"text":"那部分因為我們的這個稅制到今年2月5號到期了所以這部分我們希望再把它持續延長那OIU我們也看到了在國外的經驗上有很多的機會比如說這裡面很多的商品是保險的商品特別是境外的外國人可以透過這樣來發展"},{"start":2827.828,"end":2856.77,"text":"過去是他們單獨發展這次透過亞洲資產管理中心是會跟其他的OBU OSU一起做整合所以我想這次我們非常感謝財政部也能夠協助我們把這個法案能夠送進我們大院來審議好 那我請教 主委換句話說 金管會有沒有評估法令免稅優惠延長能夠提升多少幾成業務所得有沒有評估過"},{"start":2857.73,"end":2882.772,"text":"這個部分我們對於OIU的部分因為OIU過去的基期非常的低然後因為過去有幾年的業務基本上就是處於是非常低迷的階段我們在最近我們也放寬了一個全新的商品給保險業來參與所以這部分我們預期未來在OIU的部分應該會在不管是專區或是在OIU的這些的領域應該會有一些很大的發展"},{"start":2883.692,"end":2910.469,"text":"主委其實在台灣市場現況來看還有哪些因素啊也會影響到這些業務所得提升或是這個萎縮我想這個我們的境外金融就不管OIU OSU OBU它主要的對象還是針對是外國客戶我想外國客戶他所參考是國際上的比較比如說我們的產品有沒有吸引力還有就是說"},{"start":2911.329,"end":2936.553,"text":"這部分因為它是一定是那個資金的流動他會去做一個比較所以我們在很多的商品我們必須要跟國際市場要有競爭力所以像這次的話我們也跟我們的業界溝通說我們盡量在先在專區做一個放寬讓他的產品能夠跟國際上對接所以剛剛委員提到說什麼影響最大我覺得是國際上面的競爭力相關的影響國際競爭應該是最大的影響其實濟南軍管會要推動亞洲"},{"start":2941.694,"end":2960.958,"text":"這個資產管理中心那相對來說也應該有相對應的這些攻守的對策那對目標客戶的策略目的區分為流財或影資和影資那我請問主委從這兩種客戶面的這個業務質量"},{"start":2966.499,"end":2995.126,"text":"其所得的這個預估啊你認為流財引資應該是以誰為主啊現階段我們非常非常明確的那個我們有看到很多數據台灣的民間財富這個數字非常的巨大但是由我們國內的金融服務業來管理的這個比例非常的低所以我們在進行這項計畫的時候呢我們第一階段是先以流財為主要的主軸"},{"start":2995.806,"end":3012.145,"text":"所以說還是以流財為主是吧目前第一階段是以流財為主然後再來我們還是同步的還是有進行相關引資的政策就是說我們只是說現在重點我們會把它放在流財為主要的重點項目這樣齁那有沒有其他的看法"},{"start":3013.167,"end":3038.381,"text":"其實我覺得資金他本身是非常非常聰明的他會根據他自己的需求那我覺得主要是因為國人他有很多的財富也許是我們在法規上面不夠具有競爭力所以這次剛剛有提到我們希望透過大規模的法規鬆綁我們在過去這半年來我們鬆綁了應該將近20個法令那特別是對金融商品服務的放寬我想這部分呢應該是"},{"start":3039.441,"end":3058.662,"text":"可以有助於國人在做一個理財的時候多一個選項能夠選擇我們本國的金融服務業者來提供資產管理服務五年前香港反送中事件後引發各界對整個亞洲區金融中心移轉的聯想"},{"start":3060.123,"end":3076.543,"text":"那有香港學者認為美國和西歐投資者撤走主要原因是地緣政治導致某部分的業務香港明顯不適合發展那我請問主委就您的了解"},{"start":3077.484,"end":3093.013,"text":"幾年來香港亞洲金融中心的地位有沒有受負面影響以導致GFCI全球金融中心指數的城市排名嚴重的倒退有沒有"},{"start":3093.453,"end":3121.047,"text":"我想國際上面的金融市場的競爭是非常非常激烈的任何一個結構性的改變都會影響到這個金流的流向我想就以我們看這個財富管理業務而言或是我們資產管理業務而言很明顯的那個香港的另一個主要的競爭對手新加坡那實際上在過去這段期間很多的金流的流動是非常非常明顯我想國際上的競爭實際上這是一個最主要的考量"},{"start":3121.627,"end":3145.798,"text":"那你認為出走香港的歐美國家海外金融業務以目前台灣的狀況有足夠的吸引力嗎其實我覺得資本或是資金它有多重面向的需求假設是相同類型的需求它會尋找一個更有利的方式但是我們在推動這個計畫的時候我在很多的地方也跟"},{"start":3146.698,"end":3147.579,"text":"以金管會推動亞洲資產管理中心的發展態樣你認為"},{"start":3173.143,"end":3196.404,"text":"具備主動以及吸引外資的優勢有這些優勢的公式嗎我覺得台灣有我們的優勢當然也有我們的劣勢我想這是世界各個市場都有我覺得台灣的優勢就是真的台灣的民間財富非常的多我想這部分在各種的統計數據上都非常的明顯的表達出來"},{"start":3198.786,"end":3219.206,"text":"那再來第二個其實台灣人的投資意識跟投資的動能其實非常的強那再來就是說我覺得我們過去呢可能是因為法規上面限制比較多我們朝這個方向來走可以有很明顯的對於一些資金會產生吸引力那當然我們必須不可諱言我們跟其他相對於城市型為主的"},{"start":3219.847,"end":3239.675,"text":"那個金融中心他們有稅上面很大的優惠我想這部分我們可能很難在這方面跟他競爭但是我覺得我們還有其他的優勢可以來特別重要我們台灣有很多可投資的產業這樣喔那又或者是重點還是放在被動留住國人財富的守勢較為保險會不會這樣子"},{"start":3241.816,"end":3267.13,"text":"這個就是我們的策略執行一定有目標跟階段性那我們常常講說如果我們對國人資產都無法留下你就很難對外面的資金有更大的吸引力我想這部分我們同步並進但是我們必須很務實的如果說我們針對我們外流的資金做一個吸引我覺得應該是比較低成本而且比較有可行的方向現階段"},{"start":3268.231,"end":3279.852,"text":"主委 就本席的觀察 整體來看中國對支撐香港金融地位的策略運用是奏效的"},{"start":3281.072,"end":3304.937,"text":"但是反觀台北從109年還是GFCI城市的42名但是到了去年和今年的排名則落到73名以及70名那我請問主委賴總統表示對岸中國是境外的敵對勢力那從目前兩岸的地緣政治狀態你認為推動亞洲資產管理中心會不會"},{"start":3309.958,"end":3334.805,"text":"有相當的困難度任何一個計畫都有它的困難度我想剛才資金是向全世界在競爭我想這部分全世界都在競爭這個資金所以我覺得意思說這部分我們會用我們的優勢來克服我們的劣勢所以剛剛講說很多對於國際金融中心的排名我們當然是非常的這個關注也謝謝他們對我們的一些的"},{"start":3336.805,"end":3358.163,"text":"但是我覺得我們這個透過這樣的推動其實我們應該是會持續的進步那我請教會不會面臨這個對岸中國的阻擾會不會我想資金的部分呢他會受到各種因素的影響我想他有部分但是呢我覺得還是看我們自身的條件還有他這個資金想要投資標的屬性來決定"},{"start":3359.704,"end":3381.606,"text":"按照GFCI的排名狀況建構亞洲資產管理中心短期內要奏效甚至於提升較前面的席次的GFCI城市排名請問主委你認為有沒有機會有沒有信心我覺得這應該是因為我們現在其實我不認為"},{"start":3382.867,"end":3404.827,"text":"台灣在國際的金融市場上是應該是這樣的排名也許是在數據的提供或是說他們在資訊上面的這個不足那我想這部分我們會來會來努力讓我們整個政策讓全世界知道然後這部分呢我們可以我是很有信心這個排名會有信心好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝德虎接著請吳秉瑞委員發言"},{"start":3418.925,"end":3429.658,"text":"主席 麻煩請金管會彭主委好 彭主委委員長 早齁 早剛剛各單位的報告都看了一下這個"},{"start":3431.843,"end":3451.031,"text":"超額儲蓄過去累積10年已經達到30兆以上然後去年一年是4兆多一點點那這樣一直不停的累積如果不想辦法要處理用這麼大的資金在追求小的少的資產的話那個資產會"},{"start":3454.281,"end":3476.563,"text":"等於就是會過熱了導致很多方面包括不動產的不適當的高漲跟這個可能都有一點關係所以如何可以增加台灣的財富對其他的國家的投資尤其是美國川普總統上台之後"},{"start":3478.292,"end":3503.398,"text":"川普總統他現在就是譬如說提出的對等關稅等等就是要站在美國的立場希望大家能夠平等的對待他尤其台灣是對美國非常高的貿易順差那去年就有700多億739億美金所以是對美國第六大的全美國統計"},{"start":3504.818,"end":3527.753,"text":"台灣是對他是第六大的這個順差的國家那在這樣的狀況之下賴總統有鑑於這一點他也曾經提倡說希望台灣的廠商如果美國的投資環境適當的時候然後他策略上認為可以的話應該擴大對美國的投資這一點不知道你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":3528.697,"end":3543.369,"text":"我想我們在推動這個計畫的時候其實本來就是希望我們國人的財富能夠做更合理的運用那不要過度集中在某一些特定的方向去那也是這要必須透過專業的人來"},{"start":3545.43,"end":3568.825,"text":"來做一個規劃當然比如說我們台灣的這個投資的工具或市場可能沒辦法容納台灣這麼多的這個資金所以勢必有一部分是要合理的分配在海外去做這樣的一個投資像比如我們過去很多金融業的資產就是做這樣這個分配但是我們希望說能夠有一個更專業的方式來幫國人來做這件事情"},{"start":3570.746,"end":3590.04,"text":"如果現在政府的角度是希望台灣優良的廠商可以去美國當然經過那公司的評估去做比較多一點的投資那你贊不贊成台灣的個人在跟美國平等互惠的狀況下讓個人也能夠多一點到美國去投資"},{"start":3591.783,"end":3609.155,"text":"這個跟委員報告我想所以我們其實上很難用政策去限制一個資金的完整的流向當美國的機會比較多他的相對的國際的資金的競爭力強他自然就會引導那個資本過去那我的意思是說我們在政府政策上應該要"},{"start":3610.155,"end":3613.518,"text":"讓這些錢能夠留在台灣建設台灣促進我們產業的發展這是雙向的"},{"start":3629.631,"end":3639.916,"text":"那我覺得我們不會去刻意的就說那個錢一定要留在台灣假設國外有很好的我們也透過專業的團隊來幫我們的不管是個人或法人來做這樣的一個安排"},{"start":3640.543,"end":3666.148,"text":"投資的目的是要獲利啦投資的目的不是說錢跑去美國然後就留在那邊主要看機會還有就是他未來的譬如說很多的台灣的這個大型的保險公司也在美國買了非常多的美債啊美國公債啊那全世界認為說這是信用平等最好的不會跳票的等等投資的目的是為了要賺錢嘛是安全跟賺錢問題是這樣子啊你光只有台灣這方面的法令放寬"},{"start":3667.64,"end":3679.163,"text":"還不夠啊你跟美國之間有沒有辦法可以談一個平等互惠譬如說讓台灣的個人直接投資美國的股市呢不要現在主要的管道都要經過副委託啊"},{"start":3680.455,"end":3704.845,"text":"那可以降低中間的這些勞費啊有沒有辦法這一點當然是國際資金呢他會尋找一個降低交易成本的方式因為主要是我們現在我們國內有相關的產業比如我們證券業他就從事這個業務所以我們當然是站在我們自己的法規架構下面才會衍生出這個付委託的一個架構我想相對從對方國家大概也會有這樣的一個考慮啦我想"},{"start":3705.405,"end":3732.46,"text":"但是我們在國際上的交易現在越來越大家越來越透明很多人他也有辦法透過自己的力量直接可以去做這個買賣不過就是相對他有一定的門檻跟所謂的這個對這個金融市場的理解如果你有綠卡或是說你是有雙重國籍你投資直接投資美國股是沒有問題啦那現在問題是說能不能對談我知道現在我有問過國內的證券業者他們說要去美國"},{"start":3733.801,"end":3753.458,"text":"為什麼要用付委託的方式因為你去美國的交易所你要去註冊變成他們的會員那個會費相當的高啊還有保管銀行的問題啦 蕭昱你的錢你的那個款券那些都要有一個機構在那邊那我的意思是說我們有沒有這樣的想法跟一個這麼大的這個可以投資標的國家"},{"start":3755.509,"end":3781.965,"text":"台灣直接投資美國美國直接投資台灣互相之間把這個法令把它處理好讓兩邊的人要投資都很方便那我們台灣就可以我不用經過這麼麻煩的手續我也不用經過這麼多的這個這個不用這麼多的費用然後我就直接可以投資美國的股市呢那美國人也可以直接來投資台灣的股市呢對這個是雙向互利的方式來做啦就是說所以這部分"},{"start":3783.12,"end":3810.394,"text":"我們前一陣子也有請我們政企局去檢討比如說外國人投資台灣的一些的方式我想這部分這個方向我們來請我們的同仁針對這部分能不能針對這個東西來做一些分析跟做一些看看有什麼我們可以降低交易成本然後可以增加這個雙方投資因為畢竟我們要發展這個資金流通的一個中心能夠更方便我想交易成本更低應該是一個方向"},{"start":3811.104,"end":3827.191,"text":"而且這有一個好處啊你投資可以希望我們的企業多投資美國那我們個人的資金也投資美國的股市那美國的資金也可以投資台灣的股市那這樣雙方面之間的更加緊密的結合嘛"},{"start":3827.911,"end":3853.152,"text":"其實現在是這個機制是有的我們會來考慮就是說這樣的機制有沒有一些比如交易成本比較高的地方我們再來想因為其實我們外國人投資台灣的這個股市其實管道非常所以我們現在外資大概佔43%其實那個比重也是有的只是說剛剛委員所指教說假設個人的部分有沒有還有什麼其他可以來檢討的讓這部分可以更為順暢如果因為其實現在這個"},{"start":3858.147,"end":3879.308,"text":"網路的關係這個資訊都是很充足的那美國的市場大家認為他的公式公信他的街市是更清楚的那所以如果投資美國市場是台灣投資人的一個選擇的話那當然還是在中央銀行管制的現在說一個人一千萬美金以下啦等等這些那些的管制還是可以在的"},{"start":3879.989,"end":3897.666,"text":"但是如何讓台灣的人便利那我覺得金融會員會有這樣的想法如果有這樣的想法的話那是不是要跟美國這邊的政府對政府部門之間來去談這個如何來平等互惠然後讓雙方的國人都能夠比較方便的方式"},{"start":3898.386,"end":3923.612,"text":"這跟我們其實上我們在壯大我們的資本市場計畫裡面怎麼樣擴大我們國際間比如資本市場的合作就是我們交易所也在推動像我們在推動那個ETF雙掛牌其實某種程度的精神是很類似的就是希望說兩方的資金相互投資能夠更便利除了標的以外還有整個流程的部分我想我們會再請我們交易所還有就是我們的"},{"start":3924.372,"end":3950.697,"text":"但是ETF畢竟是一包的啊那我也不想要如果有人是對這個比較內行的我要直接舉一個例子現在特斯拉跌很多嘛那我直接想要去買特斯拉的股票假設他的研究是這樣的話那這樣子可以讓他方便嘛等等這是整個比較大問題的框架啦所以這一方面也是可以努力的"},{"start":3951.537,"end":3971.262,"text":"當然就是整個我們推動國際的這個所謂的資金的流通那怎麼樣強化這競爭因為他假如他跟其他國家的交易是這樣那我們所障礙多一分我們的競爭力就少一個那這當然很自然好那這個就是謝謝希望你們能夠在這方面加強努力謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝秉瑞這個請賴思寶召委質詢"},{"start":3990.512,"end":3996.323,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請金管會的彭主委好 請金管會彭主委早安"},{"start":4002.395,"end":4019.961,"text":"我相信GFCI的指數排名你看到了我們越來越差了2024年的9月排到第73名最好的一年是2010年馬政府時代的19名"},{"start":4024.404,"end":4039.196,"text":"這個你自己要推這個亞洲資產管理中心啊你自己給自己定個KPI吧我們就講這個KPI你還不要講一下明年的就今年的九月一年以後我們這個能不能提升提升實名"},{"start":4040.057,"end":4064.976,"text":"我想就是跟委員報告一下我覺得我很有信心這一定會止跌回升這因為為什麼就實際上我們在做這件事情在某種程度是增加我們的整個國際金融中心的這些不管是他的能夠開始啟動沒有你不要跟我講教科書亞洲台灣要設在高雄設亞洲資產管理中心啟動沒有"},{"start":4065.496,"end":4090.729,"text":"那是專區是我們計劃其中的一個那這部分呢我們應該是明天的話如果說我們快的話按照行政程序我們當然明天會發布這個事辦原則就宣告4月就可以開始來申請4月就可以申請他們籌備房幣就是主要是OBU還有私人銀行沒有 私人銀行對 主要是私人銀行"},{"start":4093.951,"end":4120.128,"text":"他的OBU海外的帳戶OBU的部分會加上我們的OSU OSU勒OSU勒 OSU勒一樣都有都有明天開始申請明天應該快的話我們行政審議明天就會公告我們這個如果可以的話就是大概4月就可以開放4月就到了"},{"start":4121.388,"end":4125.112,"text":"所以明天公佈辦法明天開始申請"},{"start":4136.821,"end":4161.117,"text":"那申請的話最快看他們自己籌備的什麼規定他現在有不同因為我們這次開放有大概三四個業態一個就是銀行的話他必須要第一個他有跟地方政府簽MOU這是一個要件因為他要到地方專區再來他要取得我們私人銀行的執照那再來我們也開放了這個保險還有證券投信什麼人可以申請"},{"start":4162.357,"end":4179.909,"text":"要有一定的條件才可以就是普通人可不可以申請不行他要吻合這個要件海外在海外的帳戶可不可以申請那就是如果他是這家銀行他已經有申請這個業務他是我們OBU的客戶那當然就會包含在這次的事辦範圍裡面"},{"start":4181.789,"end":4202.082,"text":"主委你要小心一點喔最早成立台灣變成亞太營運中心是李登輝前總統時代那時候中國大陸還沒起來所以他主要希望把經貿國際化強化台灣的安全效果也不錯後來陳水扁當總統了"},{"start":4204.483,"end":4212.015,"text":"就取消掉了就沒有了那時候的背景是這個樣子那你現在呢我們來看喔現在來講的話外界會擔心因為有錢人啊"},{"start":4216.377,"end":4235.916,"text":"有好幾本護照有些人一堆很簡單的結果你現在是需要把外面的錢進來結果人家已經講了好幾個專家都講了你不要投機不找十三十八米喔你會讓台灣的富豪"},{"start":4237.133,"end":4261.193,"text":"把錢匯出去了 透過你這裡面的OSU匯出去了你怎麼辦我們在整個制度設計 我們這次主要是英鎊的部分我們也看到了 其實國內很多的財富呢因為你提了人家有錢人就那些護老啊 就成立家族辦公室他們家族就成立辦公室配合你的政策 怎麼樣把錢弄出去"},{"start":4262.634,"end":4289.553,"text":"我們如果他的家族辦公室成立在國內那個方向剛好顛倒他會把錢進到台灣來反而是我們現階段也許很多的國人在海外成立家族辦公室我們就希望透過這個方式用英鎊的方式吸引他回來由我們的金融服務業的團隊來做這件事情你還沒有回答我剛才第一個問題你總是要給自己KPI吧你今天的9月可以提升到幾名提升幾名"},{"start":4290.754,"end":4305.928,"text":"那不好意思我剛才講到一半剛好就是因為你講一些講太多了我沒時間聽你講因為主要是這個評比是以城市為主那我們這個是整個國家在推動我想一定對比如說城市是會有影響的像比如說"},{"start":4306.528,"end":4333.964,"text":"當然有影響一個國家有好幾個城市可以參與評比這是以台北市為主但我想說這部分也可以做一個窗口來指標我是覺得說假設我們在推動這個指標我覺得一開始我們才推動幾個月我覺得這種訊息釋放還有很多它裡面的指標一定會有一些影響我覺得一開始接下來看到一定會止跌回升但是接下來應該在一開始的時候我覺得"},{"start":4335.245,"end":4349.62,"text":"我給自己一個比較保守的想法就是說我們希望我們推動這個兩年至少能夠提升10到20名左右兩年提升10到20名你企圖心也太少了你不就說我要提升到"},{"start":4350.24,"end":4369.61,"text":"我要提升到蔡英文剛開始接的時候27名那是我們未來就是假設每年都能夠往前提升這個我們假設每年都能夠往前提升我們這樣努力的話我想再過幾年之後我想我們就會回到我們應該該有的被認可的我們舉財政部的市長一起來好嗎那個時間暫停一下"},{"start":4381.795,"end":4384.978,"text":"處長啊OVU OSU OIU營業稅 營所稅 印花稅都不要交咧"},{"start":4391.861,"end":4420.6,"text":"現在是免稅啊對啊你現在按照我們的法律規定就是免稅啊這樣你有沒有算過說你到底是缺了什麼你這水都不要了 其他的人但是他在境內交易這一部分還是要按照對啊 境內還是要境外交易這個東西是剛剛不是 你算過沒有我稅少收了但是我賺到什麼你賺到什麼 請問你"},{"start":4422.819,"end":4442.568,"text":"賺到什麼基本上因為他就這個業者來講他還是有會有新的獲利還有獲利的來源你沒有回答問題啊我的意思就是說我們就省掉我們就少收了稅但是他總是要給我們什麼嘛我們給他免稅他給我什麼你告訴我我們"},{"start":4444.239,"end":4453.443,"text":"給他免稅但是就這個業者來他當然就是就跟境外交易這一部分根據目前的規定你講不清楚來主委來講主委來講來來來免稅主委他帶給我們什麼可以讓他給他免稅這個錢很多勒銀索稅幾十八勒"},{"start":4463.488,"end":4488.831,"text":"但是就業者來講他還是他雖然是可以適用免稅但是還是要適用我們最低稅負還是要課稅啊第二個他對國內的交易這一部分還是要按照國內的這個相關稅法來課稅所以基本上他不會完全免掉啦歐比歐歐是一種情懷雙情懷啦好 這個你 你在我就來同時問一下那個主委請回齁"},{"start":4491.603,"end":4495.804,"text":"這次的緬甸泰國的地震對銀行的影響113年 去年赴緬甸326屆 總共有87億美金新南向好像是政府鼓勵的一個政策"},{"start":4515.598,"end":4540.535,"text":"就工股來講我們在緬甸的都只有辦事處換句話說它是沒有實際的營業行為主委 主委但是民營的行庫它是會有分行的總部選多少你知道嗎市長你知道嗎主委請問你緬甸泰國的地震總部選多少"},{"start":4542.161,"end":4546.905,"text":"報委員,緬甸的曝險是41.42億,然後我們泰國的...講台幣齁,台幣對,這個是台幣,然後那個泰國的曝險是1280億1280億1280億對,台幣我已經...也沒救了"},{"start":4563.277,"end":4580.838,"text":"不過目前我們所接到的訊息就是他們分行的人員還有建築物一切都還因為大家都說明電是茂興的新樂園我就請教主委上市公司你知道上市公司有幾家在明電"},{"start":4583.525,"end":4597.25,"text":"這個我現在沒有這個數據我告訴你 因為時間到了我待會會把這數據再提供給委員我現在告訴你數字132家我們上市公司全部多少家總共上市櫃將近1039再十幾趴我們現在像跑去壓制地震影響很大"},{"start":4611.207,"end":4633.309,"text":"對啊 那泰國本來就很多我們的產業會移到那邊去我們幫他們密切呼籲就像我們剛才銀行一發生以後 我們銀行就立刻就啟動這個我們去調查這個 曝險的這個情況包括他們所有的航設 現在情況 人員如何我們都立刻就啟動了這樣的一個措施是不是人員平安 損失不大"},{"start":4633.969,"end":4656.731,"text":"他剛才講過就是我們所有的航車現在都是算是就是安全的狀態好 最後一題我請教次長啦財政部的次長那個101的大股東易騰宗啊持股31%賣出一半給范工股范工股現在佔70號牌你了解一下他為什麼要撤離啊易騰宗為什麼要撤離台灣"},{"start":4659.028,"end":4671.475,"text":"他為什麼要賣股啦這是基於他自己的投資要轉換的考量啦所以他當時是希望就是說能夠處分他在台灣的一些資產外資為什麼不賣給外資還賣給本國銀行其實這個是公司自己的範圍啦那基本上他在101他過去的獲利其實都相當不錯啦"},{"start":4686.084,"end":4714.997,"text":"我的解讀啦 這是在我的解讀啦 這是在LICE 失調之後做的決定要慢慢撤出台灣地緣政治 其實亞太資產管理中心不管什麼中心地緣政治 台灣的政治安定非常重要這一點 老實說他看到了台灣的政治開始不安定 會怕很緊張 就是這樣"},{"start":4716.396,"end":4726.784,"text":"就我們了解他是基於這個他資產配置重新調整的一個考量謝謝好 謝謝昭緯那這個請過關委員質詢有請彭主委好 彭主委"},{"start":4746.613,"end":4769.439,"text":"主委你回答之前我先回應一下剛剛那個財政部次長那個部分其實就回答精準一點那17條其實早在他們在資產處理之前之後那資產要處理的時候啊一天中要處理早在之前就已經對外發布出風聲了十幾點根本完全不對嘛來主委請教一下你看到本國的這一個金融環境的部分我們要探討一下"},{"start":4770.379,"end":4792.561,"text":"我們的資產管理在這20年來總資產的部分已經高達73兆又多了這個將近50兆然後不論是OBU的這個資產也好或本國銀行的盡力也好或者是國外的盡力也好台股的市值也好台灣的這個GDP也好都呈現了倍增的現象那都呈現倍增的現象而且是數倍的倍增喔"},{"start":4792.901,"end":4810.817,"text":"那我覺得對照於今天這個央行的報告當中的第一趴就跟你講說呢我們的超額儲蓄反應的一個問題呢台灣現在已經呈現了所謂的閒置資本過剩的現象但是閒置資本過剩的情況底下你又要留財又要引資回來這重點其實在哪裡在去處嘛"},{"start":4811.777,"end":4825.462,"text":"關鍵在去處 去處在哪裡 在那環境嘛不是人來不來的問題 根本還是環境的問題你去看一個就好 我今天就舉一個全球金融中心的指數 台北的排行從2016年21名 2020年42名到了2022年變成73名他評估的指標是什麼 人才 環境 基礎建設 聲譽等等"},{"start":4836.606,"end":4851.402,"text":"結果我們的資本實力越來越強但是我們的環境卻越來越差主委你怎麼看在這種情況底下你如何形成一個資產管理中心我想謝謝委員剛剛提供這些訊息我們也有去"},{"start":4852.679,"end":4875.224,"text":"去了解一下因為我們的評比有各式各樣的評比這個評比呢給我們一個比較我們比較比較嚴厲的對但是他其中但能不能接受他還不能接受啊不太服氣因為這部分我不覺得我們我們台灣在整個整個亞太的金融市場地位我們從各種指標就從委員剛剛看到這些東西但是我覺得我們要"},{"start":4876.745,"end":4890.862,"text":"這個要努力的向國際去說明這件事情台灣的一些現況包括這些數字我們也會去了解一下這些指標的背後是不是有些地方比如說是因為資訊提供的問題或是一些指標我們可以來做一個揭露"},{"start":4891.463,"end":4905.054,"text":"主委這個說明當然要持續性的但是是不是認真的面對是不是我們基本面有所欠缺的問題這才是關鍵因為現實上來說有些問題我們真的是要去想一想為什麼同樣的這個ETF在國外的這個收費標準跟國內"},{"start":4910.618,"end":4927.071,"text":"相差很多我講一個數字給你聽在去年高股息的ETF全民封ETF我們的總費用率是座落在0.42%到1.37%之間相對國外的總費用率幾乎都座落在0.1%以下"},{"start":4928.973,"end":4940.561,"text":"0.1%我們的低飆都比人家高飆高了好幾倍啊所以說這種情況下我們的環境當中是不是要去檢討去思考這個問題當然也有些業者他自我反省像原大的話0050他就0.355降到0.141"},{"start":4944.784,"end":4967.804,"text":"那這會影響到什麼影響到我們的這個有關於這個勞保基金要不要購買ETF的一個問題關鍵所以你要如何把他吸引到這個IPO市場當中這都是關鍵啊主委有沒有覺得是這個問題然後你跟他推動了TISA你也是從這邊做切入點啊你的報告當中也講要讓他讓利他本該就讓利了"},{"start":4970.726,"end":4998.778,"text":"他獲利太多了啦對不對主委請說其實我剛剛提到就是說我們在這個報告裡也提到一個其實我從去年開始不管我在高雄專區或是在很多跟金融業在討論這些未來市場發展的會議上都跟他提到金融業必須要面對我們市場要持續成長的這個目標但這個成長的結果呢不應該只有比如公司跟股東來做主要的分配事實上就是公司跟股東在成長"},{"start":4999.538,"end":5027.236,"text":"對就說就剛剛委員講的那個方向就是我們在努力的我們也希望說隨著市場的擴大那這個部分能夠呼應一下能夠就讓利對我想這部分也是我們應該要所以讓利不是只有在TESA的部分而已嘛對不對所以很多政經業者他自己思考這個問題啦我講實在話我們收費過高對投資人不夠友善我們人才的養成其實薪資過低以至於我們有些金融人才都還停留在新加坡或停留在這個香港"},{"start":5027.996,"end":5039.658,"text":"為什麼這些人不回來如果這些人可以回來他也可以帶客戶回來啊你的資產管理中心就可以實現啊當然當然這就是基本面的問題嘛他的評鑑當中也有人才的問題為什麼人才不夠原因在哪裡"},{"start":5041.072,"end":5066.586,"text":"你要留財之前要先引財引財之前要先引人才回來嘛這基本問題我們要去面對這個問題好就拉回來您再提的有關於這一個這個財務管理資產管理也就是說這個資產管理業到底是接近於投信投估業還是什麼沒有一個清楚的定義就這兩邊當中的連結度箭頭的連結度市政銀行是連結到財務管理能不能連結到這個"},{"start":5068.267,"end":5091.638,"text":"資產管理那高資產是不是連結到財富管理高資產算不算資產管理這張圖當中看不出來那個連結性也就是看不出來所謂的定義是什麼當定義不清楚的話大家就很模糊當模糊的情況底下又要怎麼推廣我們有沒有可能再修改這個投信投顧業來清楚的定義所謂的所謂資產管理業是什麼"},{"start":5092.568,"end":5110.378,"text":"有沒有可能這個跟委員報告其實每個國家它法制的結構很不同其實我在開始了解這個議題的時候發覺其實台灣沒有所謂一個執照叫做資產管理業所以比較好的應對的產業就是我們的投信業那再來還有我們的投顧業"},{"start":5111.639,"end":5140.428,"text":"但是實際上後來發現說我們在國外真的對資產管理的概念也不限於只有我們的投信跟投顧他還做很多其他的內容比如說包括我們的創投跟我們的PE也都是一個那我們需不需要再把它精準定義一下或者需要修改一些相關的法制所以我們現在的定義就是我們用一個更廣泛的資產管理的範圍把我們過去已經很有基礎的財富管理業務跟結合我們狹義的所謂資產管理我們現在的方式AMC也是資產管理啊"},{"start":5141.008,"end":5163.974,"text":"那個不一樣那個不一樣名詞上看起來就相同啊那個名稱因為我們過去用了一個資產管理到底我們是什麼樣的資產管理搞不清楚嘛部長用你的智慧來定義一下啦好不好定義清楚一下該修法要修法嘛因為新的政策你需要在法制上落實嘛你一來就是銜接現有法制不然你就是在重新創造一個法制嘛不是嗎"},{"start":5164.574,"end":5191.231,"text":"當然我們現在用 你要推動這個政策問題要變成這個法制的問題跟基本面的問題啊不是嗎剛剛委員講的很好幾件事我們都非常認同第一個我們一定要讓人才有一個好的環境再來就是我們交易應該有一個很好的環境這些都是一個那個先決的要件那再來就是說我們對於法規剛剛那個範圍其實我們現在採取的就是用實務來定義這樣的一個範疇所以我們就結合了剛才兩大塊所以剛剛這部分我覺得我們未來也會隨著這個東西的改變做一些"},{"start":5194.173,"end":5217.127,"text":"變化就像我們上次我們在報告有提到我們這次有開放外部資產管理服務業這個就是一個慢慢去對接國際的一個資產管理的概念你的眼神現在說我都可以理解但是我還跟你講說是基本面的問題要怎麼定義會更清楚我還在跟你談一個基本面的部分像之前啊這本席一直跟這個財務財政部門在argue的部分的這個印花稅的問題財政部過往就是要修這個這個所謂的這個重複課稅的這個稅務"},{"start":5223.29,"end":5244.768,"text":"因為花稅最大的受害者就是金融業嘛所以你理解吧你看113年繳了多少錢115億佔了61%這最大的受害者啊那你在稅制的環境當中你要面對改革啊不是嗎當整個國外資金來的時候你就覺得對這些人不公平嘛對金融業不公平嘛我是說這基本面的問題我們總是要面對嘛"},{"start":5245.974,"end":5266.412,"text":"主委印花稅站在你主管的金融業當中你要有一個基本的看法跟態度出來或一個說明或要求一個政策建議出來那個財政部那個不是建議啦說地方政府都反對哪一個地方政府會贊成把我稅金拿走哪一個地方會贊成問題是這個稅制科的合不合理嘛公不公平嘛不是嗎主委請說"},{"start":5267.293,"end":5285.39,"text":"我想站在金融主管機關對稅的看法會跟財政部跟可能地方政府會有不一樣的看法那我們當然過去我們也接到很多業者的反應我們也持續的向我們的那個租稅主政單位我們去做這個反應當然尤其我們要推動國際資金的競爭的時候"},{"start":5287.552,"end":5301.987,"text":"當我們有一些比較特別的稅制產生劣勢的時候我們還是會持續的溝通也能夠希望剛剛像委員講我們的環境能夠更具有競爭力對啊這個都是我今天跟你討論的其實都是在討論基本面的問題啦"},{"start":5302.868,"end":5329.21,"text":"從人才環境還有稅制的問題還有包括人才的養成的部分你知道現階段的中研院在南部有設立一個南部院區最近的經濟部生技辦公室南部也會有一個辦公室諸多的學術機構或研發機構都設在南部那你現在資產管理專區要把它地區化"},{"start":5330.371,"end":5348.631,"text":"問題你很多金融人才全部的這個訓練機構都集中在台北其他都是一個辦公室聯絡而已沒有真正的想去養成當區的人才我就舉一個例子來說你現在要把專區設在地方專區設在高雄在高雄有嗎"},{"start":5349.292,"end":5367.033,"text":"高雄或許沒有一個比較適合的空間確定政府所謂的設立專區幾乎都是在台南為主就高鐵旁邊類似像中研院的這樣的南部分我們金融延續院有沒有可能設立的可能金融延續院在高雄有辦事處有查過了台中也有"},{"start":5367.353,"end":5385.762,"text":"其實他們還蠻大的再來就是我們這次有一個我們三大人才訓練基地一個是研訓院一個就是中山的國際金融學院對還有就是我們政大的國際金融學院這三個那個是附屬在大學底下的對但是我們也跟他做密切他們也已經答應已經要開設這些人才培育班我想這部分"},{"start":5386.582,"end":5410.333,"text":"但是要有一個類似像中研院南分院的一個規模而且是南區分院而不是分院的一個角色我們會朝這個來講怎麼擴大人才的培育面來去強化要有一個地域性的考量方便性的考量嘛確實因為這次的做法也希望能夠平衡也希望未來各個比說更有潛力的其他縣市也能來參與這樣的一個計畫我們就會去平衡這個人才的培育"},{"start":5410.713,"end":5438.359,"text":"當你有一些金融機構金融單位要下放在地方的時候的同時你就應該考慮有一些人才的養成也應該要在地化的可能所以說我是說你就乾脆思考從一個中研院的這個南分院的一個架構當中來思考金融延續院是不是可以用這種方式來比照辦理的模式來做思維這我們可以跟他們來討論一下比如南區他們在高雄那個的一些功能還有就是我們跟中山來討論來強化看怎麼樣替代"},{"start":5440.779,"end":5458.69,"text":"農山加高雄嘛,你剛才說也是高雄嘛本席一直強調台南,你都沒有聽到重點沒有,我知道就是南部、樓部,因為剛才委員提到專區啦所以我想平衡南北,我們會來努力啦對啊,高鐵有機會去看一下,那邊土地空間比較大啦,好不好必要的時候我還可以跟台南市政府建議啦,OK,好不好人才養成很重要,請主委慎重思考,謝謝謝謝國文委員,接著請陳一貞委員質詢"},{"start":5473.258,"end":5480.661,"text":"謝謝主席我們請金管會還有財政部金管會主委還有財政部主委財政部阮次長委員長安主委次長早你們這個預算通過後有沒有什麼有自愛燃刑嗎"},{"start":5491.721,"end":5517.087,"text":"預算通過我看到你是說財政部跟不是 總預算總預算因為上次我們有申請復議就沒有通過沒有通過那現在你沒有提出你們自愛燃刑的部分嗎當然裡面的確是有一些也有 金管會也有特別是通案通刪那一部分還有一些凍結的部分也有對 凍結那部分也受到一些影響解凍案送來了沒有這兩個部會對不起你們的解凍案送過來了沒有"},{"start":5521.994,"end":5530.861,"text":"解凍解凍那部分對 看 因為對你們凍結對財政部凍結的部分現在在準備當中還沒有是不是對 慢慢再處理慢慢的 金管會送來沒"},{"start":5533.846,"end":5552.553,"text":"經管會經管會報告委員我們大概所有的報告大概都準備好了我們大概就是按照程序來進行什麼時候會送啊我們就按照我們委員會排審的時間我們來處理我看你們好像不大急但是你們在預算被動的時候這兩個部位當然我沒有看到你們下鄉去宣講"},{"start":5553.353,"end":5575.677,"text":"但是你們的網站也是寫說你們是不立什麼凍結預算不立這個不立那個影響校人啊不立財政啊不立什麼影響什麼建設服務啦那你們知道去年113年預算的解凍案是什麼時候開始送進立法院嗎因為去年也有預算被凍嘛今年是114嘛現在2025嘛那2024的時候也有凍2023的預算也有被凍2024是什麼時候送進來解凍嗎"},{"start":5584.42,"end":5590.042,"text":"財政部是在我們去年立法院開議是2月20號正式開議財政部是在18天後開議的18天後在3月8號列入立法院的議程經管會是在3月20號就是33天後"},{"start":5605.787,"end":5620.461,"text":"就是說立法院開議幾天後開始來排解凍嘛開始把資料送過來你們要送過來立法院才能排議程嘛好你知道現在已經多少天了我們是2月11號正式開議了現在已經48天了你們有一個單位送過來給我們解凍嗎"},{"start":5622.574,"end":5630.298,"text":"沒有嘛 財政部還沒有嘛 對不對我們目前還在準備當中還沒準備好嘛 對嘛 今晚會啊 還沒有對 還沒有嘛 對吧所以 所以呢 你們不急嘛可見沒有因為預算沒有因為預算被動啊 所以有什麼很大的這個影響嘛"},{"start":5642.304,"end":5659.114,"text":"因為像這個比如說動三層的話你有影響啊你到現在都還沒有送過來都已經快兩個月啊你們也沒有送解凍案啊前面的幾個月是我們還是民進黨團也不在乎啊因為民進黨團反正讓行政院院會也沒辦法像那個"},{"start":5660.314,"end":5678.609,"text":"總之那個大院也沒有 院會也沒辦法開嘛反正他們站著主席台也不打算讓任何案子通過嘛所以他們也不在乎這個解凍案啦你們也不在乎嘛好 謝謝次長來我們請今晚會主委我們跟請教一下OIU的部分你們OIU在各部分做免稅優惠延長這個10年嘛那原來你們設定的這個"},{"start":5683.646,"end":5701.121,"text":"這個數目和收入的這個總額跟你們原來預估的你看一下這個表原來我們預估設立是36家保險局上來截至112年底獲准成立20家達成率是55%原定預算規模31但截至112年底的規模只有達成1.39億只有達成4.65%"},{"start":5705.666,"end":5710.932,"text":"哇 你看到史上最悲的這個新聞報導2025年的 今年的報導 上個月的報導OIU授權保單一年只賣四張啊 四張一二三四 四張五大關鍵原因 這個經濟日報的報導 五大關鍵原因來 我先請問一下這個保險局 您上來吧"},{"start":5727.045,"end":5746.273,"text":"OIU一年保單只賣四張我們剛剛那個數字都是相關報告應該沒有錯2024年全年只賣四張是這樣子嗎是的為什麼呢受險的一個新契約為什麼呢因為大概過去幾年我們的疫情因素的影響疫情好來沒錯疫情是第二點經濟報說全球2020到2022爆發疫情第一點是什麼"},{"start":5749.735,"end":5766.358,"text":"是還有那個全球一個聚災聚災的一個衝擊的不可控的這些因素那還有我們整個外籍客戶比如說像我們的那個路客來台的人數也有減少第一點最大客源的路客遭大陸"},{"start":5767.319,"end":5790.938,"text":"限制來台 客源少了一大塊第二個疫情第三個美國的肥咖條款第四個地緣政治那還有一點實務上 我先跟您請教一下實務上我聽到很多保險業者跟我講說好像還有這個中間還有這個仲介手續費怎麼報的問題是不是有實際上遇到這個問題你知道我在說什麼嗎"},{"start":5793.42,"end":5817.799,"text":"業務員如果去拉客戶 在海外拉客戶那可能有海外的 海外的 他們也會有海外的仲介那這邊有這邊的仲介嘛 你要拉客戶嘛拉那個大咖的客戶那這邊的這個仲介的 這個海外的那個仲介的費用好像沒有辦法支出還是怎麼樣 是這樣子吧您了解我的說什麼嗎您不了解實務面是吧報告委員就是說我們的那個費用好像沒有辦法支出啊 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":5819.642,"end":5841.095,"text":"你知道嗎 我要拉比如說我要拉彭金榮他是這個香港的巨富然後他有一個仲介也會有一個broker嘛那我們這邊也有仲介的就是營業員就是broker就是然後我們透過我們的仲介去拉香港的這個巨富的時候那個那邊仲介的費用是沒有辦法報的我們相關的你了解這個事情嗎"},{"start":5842.495,"end":5858.523,"text":"你不了解是不是你主管保險業務你不知道這是金融業者跟我們保險業者跟我們反映的而且說這是普遍的一個原因所造成這個這個業界沒有辦法去海外因為這個中間的這個整個費用差別很大所以他們去拉也不一定划算因為這個費用沒辦法保"},{"start":5860.004,"end":5872.89,"text":"你不了解你回去了解這個是實務面上遇到問題但是當然整體的大的環境的原因就是入客那當然地緣政治疫情已經結束了那說到地緣政治來我請主委"},{"start":5874.676,"end":5882.14,"text":"說到敵人政治 賴總統3月13號他提出中國大陸是境外敵對勢力那這個是不是加劇了國人認為戰爭提高的風險性整個提高"},{"start":5890.868,"end":5916.808,"text":"我想這個在我們金管會我們考慮的點就是說我們在整個金融市場是不是足夠穩定跟透明我想這部分我們只是我們會來配合這不是你可以改變的啦我知道那這個但是這個對你在推不管是財富管理中心啦或者是在推這一種什麼OIU啊什麼這一類啦我想對於在美國啊日本啊各地都覺得台灣人真的很危險好像是一個隨時會發生戰爭的地方當台灣的有錢人"},{"start":5920.991,"end":5939.678,"text":"有資產高資產的人都紛紛的怕因為戰爭把自己的錢往外移的時候這個是應該現在普遍的情形至少我知道很多人都是這樣做紛紛的把高資產我們有高資產階層都紛紛把自己的錢往外移的時候我們如何期待世界各地的有權人把他們的錢拿來台灣讓我們來管理呢這個地緣政治的影響實在是太大了"},{"start":5944.42,"end":5972.308,"text":"我想就剛剛跟幾個委員也報告過了我們要推這個計畫當然會有它的困難但是我們也不是只有困難我們也有我們的優勢反正這個東西也不是你可以影響我只是我說也是要讓我們的高層聽到如果一直把台海形塑城是一個可能打仗的地方其實保險局長在這裡包括現在世界上很多船運 兵險這是相關的業者告訴我很多這個貨物都不願意靠來台灣"},{"start":5973.348,"end":5990.114,"text":"因為這個兵險很多保險公司不願意保國際保險公司也不願意保因為這個兵險的話是他們覺得不可以預期也許沒有辦法承擔的造成我們港口的這個進出很多頓速各方面的這個量也變少其實這是影響很大包括外資要不要來投資的這種"},{"start":5991.984,"end":6006.019,"text":"亂邦不入 違邦不入 亂邦不居嘛對吧 古時候不是如你這樣說嗎所以我們如果一直把自己造成是一個地緣政治比較風險高的地方事實上對你要完成的這個所謂不管是亞洲資產關係或者讓國人高資產潛留下來或讓外國有錢人進來的話這個機會很小啦"},{"start":6012.525,"end":6033.583,"text":"機會真的很小 你會越來越困難啊到時候不是你兩年什麼有成你想做但是很難成功大環境實在太不好兩年我們是希望大家能夠知道我們這個選擇沒關係 我跟你講在這個中間我看到一個機會我們去年不是有去金門考察這個兩岸金融市行區嗎在現在這個大家不要笑的確就是金門因為在現在兩岸沒有往來 現在兩岸沒有往來但是金門還有往來"},{"start":6036.445,"end":6058.681,"text":"金門是有陸客的地方陸客現在還到金門去有團體型又有自由型金門也可以很正常的這樣往來一天還是好幾十班船兩岸的往來在金門還是很密切在金門像我們每個月大概金門地區去那邊不管是進鄉或者過來的還是團體還是相當多這個相當多一天大概上個月上個禮拜就"},{"start":6060.082,"end":6087.282,"text":"上禮拜一千多個人去媽祖金鄉在上禮拜保生大帝在三五百個下禮拜又有什麼玄天上帝反正就是很多宗教文化各方面的往來那我們去考察說兩岸金門金門算是一個現在在台海局勢比較緊張的地方是大概我大概很確定如果台海真的打仗金門應該是不會有戰爭的地方大概比較危險的是台灣島所以"},{"start":6088.183,"end":6111.765,"text":"所以我們有討論說把金門成為一個兩岸金融市行區國泰人壽在2016年也曾經去設OIU的這個據點後來因為後來結束營業是覺得地理位置好政策缺乏支持沒有成效所以我們講一下想請你上次我們已經去考察過了兩位副局長也有去現在在入客在金門也可以團體來可以自由"},{"start":6112.185,"end":6130.471,"text":"自由性的開來團體的開來他們高資產大陸的高資產科會也是很多所以如果請你open mind一點一點就是這個四點包括這個兩岸金融這個示範區這個部分是不是請相關的這個主管機關演繹一下相關的在法令行政上面可以協助的事項好嗎"},{"start":6131.771,"end":6155.416,"text":"連你一個書面包給我嗎看我們有沒有什麼發展的空間或者是在兩岸這個緊繃的情況下在一個比較至少在一個和平的島金門這個島上面是不是還有什麼兩岸是不是還有什麼可行的方向讓這個兩岸的氣氛在那裡可以慢慢的讓氣氛慢慢平和然後讓到後來到台灣島的這個整個氣氛也可以平和呢"},{"start":6155.976,"end":6163.458,"text":"我會按照委員的指示一個月內把相關的研究的報告送給您好 謝謝我們請賴會員委員"},{"start":6184.278,"end":6187.139,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們先請國發會經濟發展處處長國發會 邱處長今天很多是女性同胞"},{"start":6202.955,"end":6220.843,"text":"是 處長我們延續剛剛陳一貞委員特別就是說在上個會期我們有到金門去那我們希望那個延逸就是兩岸金融市行區這個是陳一貞委員他提出來的你對這一個提案有沒有印象"},{"start":6223.615,"end":6241.697,"text":"不好意思因為這個部分不是我的處在夜館所以委員的那個意見我們會帶回去延期好 帶回去就是請他就是揮彈不要再對準我們這樣子可行性就大了可行性就大他不會金門不會是那個開曼群島這個"},{"start":6243.559,"end":6265.411,"text":"跟那個陳一貞委員要記得跟他報告我想處長這個今天派你來就是應該你對台灣的金融市場的一個規模跟發展有相當的一個研究所以你代表國發會來那我們如何因應全球的經濟的一個變局那在4月2號川普"},{"start":6265.711,"end":6281.965,"text":"他會提出他的一個關稅關稅的一個測試那個就是設施的一個報告那台灣跟美國的對等關係這個制度的課稅的公式的一個推估我們覺得有幾種變數一種就是說不變"},{"start":6283.106,"end":6299.144,"text":"那一種就是說維持現狀不變一種就是說台灣的進口關稅的稅率他可能會做很大的一個調整那如果僅是就是說這個關稅如果對等美國的2.5%你看在這一個裡頭"},{"start":6300.866,"end":6308.495,"text":"我們會看到了就是很多的一個就是可能會做了很多的一個那個應變那你認為台灣這個影響台灣今年的經濟是會變好還是變壞"},{"start":6315.422,"end":6332.783,"text":"我想這個可能要是這個川普總統他的最後的關稅政策以及他跟我們競爭對手國他相對的關係那我們其實行政院已經國會會有沒有研擬一套方式就是變好變壞都有各有一套是不是"},{"start":6333.443,"end":6353.802,"text":"在行政院有成立一個台美經貿的專案小組那會變好還是變壞?就是院會成立一個專案小組會針對所有可能的情況做砂盤的推移已經成立了嗎?有,在副院長在督導那大概是會變好變壞?這個要看實際的方案跟我們的因應的"},{"start":6354.062,"end":6374.879,"text":"所以到現在也沒有辦法知道就是說他會變好還是變壞是 我們會研擬最妥適的對象所以說川普用關稅向全球的那個全球的貿易限戰那帶來的會是通膨還是那個停滯性的通膨的一個隱憂現在也還不確定那我覺得就是說要請教你如果"},{"start":6375.199,"end":6389.959,"text":"接著下來要維持今年的經濟成長的重點那有幾個方向除了就是對外的經貿談判國會會不會就是說規劃任何的一個關稅那可以保三啊"},{"start":6391.575,"end":6416.147,"text":"就目前我們看國內外經濟機構對台灣的預測都是大概說是在三以上他也是像是SMP Global Insight他在最新的預測他甚至還有上修台灣的經濟資本其實我們為了要讓經濟保三其實中央政府應該要有更多的一個作為啦可惜今天的總預算還卡住了跟晚年相比的話甚至大虎的一個刪減跟凍結"},{"start":6418.248,"end":6424.523,"text":"所以就是說這個對一個預算的一個推動還有政策的一個推動會不會受到影響呢"},{"start":6425.763,"end":6448.977,"text":"我們會努力把相關的衝擊降到最低好 會把它降到最低啦是處長你看這兩個計畫就是大投資台灣計畫跟兆元投資發展國家那個發展的一個方向的這兩個計畫你認為他們兩個的一個那個互相的關係在哪裡對 這些都是要引導國內外資金投資台灣來加強台灣的競爭力"},{"start":6451.849,"end":6470.578,"text":"所以這個都是非常重要的好 謝謝今晚為主委 處長你請回怎麼樣因應全球的經濟上的一個變局台股受到了美股的一個連動的影響非常大那就是說 主委你看國安基金這幾天會不會準備那個進場"},{"start":6472.659,"end":6489.693,"text":"報委員國安基金的話是跟那是由財政部主政我們關注的是市場整個有沒有非理性因素的影響還有就是整個市場我們相對的穩定度來看是相對的穩定所以國安基金還不會急著進場"},{"start":6491.094,"end":6503.024,"text":"這個由國安基金來判斷那是由財政部主政的範圍那整個市場市場的你的那個就是處在一個觀望的一個程度你認為就是說這個國安基金會不會進場我們還是在觀望"},{"start":6505.365,"end":6525.815,"text":"那個他們據我所知他們有一套自己的運作的模式還有一些他們的那個判斷的準據那我們所關切的就像比如說會不會整個市場因為過度的比如說非理性因素那我們是不是應該採取相對應的作為我想這部分其實這部分你有沒有現在有沒有採取相對應的那個"},{"start":6526.735,"end":6541.973,"text":"其實這是我們在整個資本市場管理上面在監督管理上的例行性的業務我想不管是我們兩個交易市場還有就是我們相關的一些指標還是我們都隨時都在監看中"},{"start":6543.615,"end":6557.914,"text":"好 主委你提出來的造園投資國家發展的方案最重要就是說你希望加強把民間的資金引到我們的所有的一個公共建設裡頭那其中這個三大策略裡頭"},{"start":6559.096,"end":6586.685,"text":"第二點跟第三點都是跟金管會息息相關這個也是說你念之再之最擔心的就是說資金的來源從哪邊來如何擴大營用資金這個最關鍵的問題就是說資金從哪裡來尤其現在美元走強的一個趨勢下政府要怎麼樣吸引更多的資金回到台灣那金管會會同經濟部的研擬就是說投資台灣的一個三大方案"},{"start":6588.225,"end":6604.872,"text":"這個發揮的一個效果到哪裡咧我想最重要的是剛才文提到沒有錯就是兆元投資計畫主要是他有兩個方向第一個創造標的引入資金我想這裡面大家對期待很深的就是金融業的資金特別是保險業"},{"start":6605.812,"end":6629.663,"text":"那剛剛提到我們第一個呢應該要透過跨部會的努力創造出適合的標的 公建的標的那這個也是我們剛才講亞洲資產關係中心的其中一部分因為這個標的可以由金融業來投資也可以由全面來投資也可以吸引外資來投資所以這部分我們正在努力就是怎麼樣創造出這個標所以說OIU的延長十年其實它的正當性就非常強了"},{"start":6631.464,"end":6657.282,"text":"OIU本來就是它過去就一直存在只是因為我們過去租稅的這個法制上面它有一定的期間我們到了以後覺得政策還是需要延續我們就讓它持續的延長10年那這是我們在推動整個比如說在海外財富管理或資產管理的一環剛剛講我們兆元投資是說希望國內有更多的把這個弓箭能夠變成是一個可投資的標的來吸引國內外的資金"},{"start":6657.662,"end":6671.958,"text":"好 主委那你現在就是說我們都知道台灣的金融業有上百兆的一個資產那你要怎麼樣引進資金你現在現階段面臨到最大的一個困難是什麼最大的一個困難"},{"start":6672.619,"end":6701.308,"text":"當然我想就是主要是標的問題啦因為像比如說這個比如說就以保險為例保險的他所收的保費都有答應客戶一定的這樣那個那個負債的一些的報酬率他必須要找到一個滿足他成本需要的標的所以這部分呢我們也持續的努力在國內能不能創造出更多的標的留住我們的資金來投資我們台灣的這些產業或是工業"},{"start":6702.248,"end":6731.625,"text":"好 主委那我們再回到亞洲資產管理中心央行講的就是說亞洲資產管理中心其實不缺資金那唯有就是說要成為這個亞洲資產管理中心我們希望就是有這一個生態這個生態圈這個生態圈其實是非常重要的我們希望留住這個人才那這個財產我們也希望就是資金我們也希望把它留下來那我希望儘管會在一個月內你提出書面的一個回覆"},{"start":6732.385,"end":6761.042,"text":"那給我那接著再跟這個主委來做一個探討就是說新加坡跟台灣如何就是成為亞洲的資產管理中心其實新加坡他現在在全世界三大的一個資產投資中心他的地位已經是非常穩固了那為什麼新加坡能台灣不能這個其實也是我一直很納悶的一個地方不管就是說在人口數還是說在這個GDP的一個占比"},{"start":6761.542,"end":6784.259,"text":"其實我們台灣應該有一個非常好的一個條件非常好的一個條件那就是今晚會真的針對的這三個面向就是針對的就是兩個國家的一個比較跟嚴密的相關的一個方案請一個月提供書面的一個回覆那我非常贊成就是說政府因勢力道那吸引更多的一個"},{"start":6785.4,"end":6803.99,"text":"國際的資金來投資台灣建設台灣那也透過一個資產管理的相當那個相關的一個配套有效的應用資金當然我們要避免這些錢進來了他會炒房還是股市那甚至就是影響到我們的物價那我們希望的就是這個"},{"start":6805.251,"end":6829.959,"text":"成為是新加坡第二而不是開曼群島這個我想那個主委你應該有一個非常好的一個想法啦這這個也是就是說要特別請那個主委就是把那個書面的資料在一個月內提供給本席是沒問題我會依照那個委員的指示針對裡面的一些的問題我們會一一的詳細回答好謝謝主委謝謝賴會員委員"},{"start":6834.028,"end":6835.028,"text":"所以我們請顏寬恆委員主席 各位立席官員早主席有請今晚會彭主委好 彭主委"},{"start":6859.87,"end":6869.46,"text":"政府推動將台灣打造成亞洲資產管理中心在高雄設立資產管理專區這項計畫體現出我國加強金融市場國際化的決心也更顯示出對於吸引國際資本的渴望"},{"start":6877.868,"end":6893.841,"text":"我國是否能夠創造出與新加坡香港相比更具吸引力的金融中心我存在著一些疑慮那尤其是在我上次有向你提到的地緣政治風險法規環境等相較於這些金融中心的一個競爭"},{"start":6895.427,"end":6909.768,"text":"劣勢那主要面臨必須要解決的問題那否則實在難以吸引這些大型的金融企業來進駐台灣那我國作為亞洲的重要金融市場之一"},{"start":6910.689,"end":6933.901,"text":"尤其是現在川普上台又讓整個國際局勢增添了更多的不確定性因此我在這邊還是要請教主委今晚會如何進一步穩定台灣資本市場尤其是在與新加坡香港等競爭對手相比時台灣有足夠的措施來吸引並保護外資尤其是長期資本的流入請主委說明"},{"start":6934.361,"end":6943.556,"text":"所以我想委員剛剛提到的就是比如說我們在發展亞洲資產觀念中心所面對到的既有的這些的挑戰"},{"start":6944.912,"end":6966.677,"text":"我想確實有些國家它沒有這樣的問題所以它當然在發展起來是比較容易的所以我們在要解決這個問題的時候我剛剛也提到我們其實每個地方都有它的優勢跟劣勢我們就是強化我們的優勢來淡化我們的劣勢那我們想辦法去解決這個問題"},{"start":6968.817,"end":6992.788,"text":"至少把它淡化比如說我們剛才講我們推這個高雄專區主要著重於在境外的客戶的吸引境外的客戶呢我們透過OBU的概念它暫時還是在境外但是是由國人的團隊來管理我想這是一個我們第一步可以來做這件事情要擴大優勢嘛對不對對對對擴大我們優勢再來就是適時的導引回來投資我們台灣在全球具有競爭力的產業"},{"start":6994.369,"end":7019.37,"text":"我想比如說我們跟新加坡比新加坡當然是一個金融中心他強調是金流的轉動但是台灣除了這個可能沒有辦法完全跟他做一個競爭但是我們有很多產業投資的機會我們也是心裡就像我們現在的所以你剛剛提到是引資的部分那流財的部分像台積電宣布要赴美投資再投資一千億美金總共加總是一千六百五十億美金"},{"start":7020.191,"end":7042.442,"text":"那這一舉動引發了許多台灣這個如何有效留下財富還是你剛剛提到的引資的部分吸引更多外資回流的部分那台灣作為半導體的一個領頭羊那面臨的大量資金流向其他國家使得我們的資本市場的一個競爭力相對的受到挑戰那這樣子要怎麼樣去"},{"start":7043.542,"end":7062.622,"text":"去做一個應對是跟委員做個說明就是說其實剛才講的我們的引資或流財跟我們的產業在海外的投資這是兩個比較不是那麼完全一致的關係我們歷史說剛才講台灣很多的財富他本質現在很多是"},{"start":7063.263,"end":7083.675,"text":"逐年在過去累積流落在海外有海外的團隊在做管理我們是希望說這些能夠盡量的交由國內的團隊來管理甚至回來投資台灣那產業他為了他自己不管是追隨客戶或者說他產業的擴張他去做一個資本的投資我想這兩個事情不會有衝突的地方"},{"start":7084.963,"end":7106.114,"text":"其實我們很顯然我們現在要做引資但是我們看到我們台灣大型的產業陸續的出走未來還會有更多相關半導體高科技產業也一樣都會到美國這個市場那我想剛剛你在高雄設立這個金融專區這有一定的政策亮點但是"},{"start":7106.914,"end":7124.279,"text":"要真正的成功還需要更多的誘因政策嘛是對不對比如說國際稅庫條件商品發展還有金融創新要如何與新加坡香港等地區競爭那流財比引資更重要因為我們現在看不到我們現在引資的部分那個是期待性是未來性"},{"start":7124.859,"end":7141.415,"text":"但是我們看到的是我們大型的這些這些企業往美國出走那這部分是我們非常擔憂的尤其台積電開想了赴美投資的第一槍後續會有更多的高科技半導體都會相同的一樣都到美國去那"},{"start":7142.81,"end":7161.877,"text":"我想要更何況是引資企業往往都一定會選擇比在自身有一個良好的一個獲利環境他才會留下來所以我想就是說企業跟資金會陸續出走這是這一波我們也很明顯的看得到那今晚會如何看待"},{"start":7162.817,"end":7178.802,"text":"這些高科技產業赴美投資的景象那台灣如何進一步完善政策吸引並且留住這些高資產客戶的資金是 謝謝委員我想剛剛委員也提到其實我想台積電的魏董事長在很多場合也"},{"start":7179.742,"end":7203.524,"text":"也提過他這個東西不影響對台灣的投資我想這個這不是金管會主政我們剛剛跟委員提過就是我們希望能夠吸引國外的資金除了交由我們團隊來管理更希望他能夠回來投資台灣的產業我想這部分就是要平衡這樣的一個概念就是說很多的資金本來就在海外我想我們希望說能夠透過一些政策的放寬"},{"start":7204.625,"end":7221.466,"text":"也謝謝委員剛剛的這個提醒就是說這是我們高雄專區我們也盤點了一下總共單單銀行我們就是放寬了20項新業務那其他比如說保險、投信、投顧加起來也大概超過30幾項的新業務這就是希望說剛剛講那個誘因怎麼讓我們這些"},{"start":7224.389,"end":7241.242,"text":"這些資金能夠透過我們這個放寬能夠考慮回來台灣交給我們的團隊或甚至投資台灣我想這就是我們來努力的剛剛很多的困境我們都知道但是不能因為有這個困境我們就不做所以我們就希望說對盡量來做主委反正流財比引資更重要啦"},{"start":7241.642,"end":7258.29,"text":"都很重要,但是現在流財會更可惜如果你們把這些大型的企業主流在台灣,讓他們相機出走,那未來台灣會是什麼樣的景象?剛剛講說,他這個其實不是...當我不是產業專家,我想他們是因為整個海外的擴張"},{"start":7260.069,"end":7272.894,"text":"在稅制 資金流動還有金融創新方面要如何吸引這些高資產的客戶這部分金管費你要做一個非常仔細的調整金管費發布這個含義說"},{"start":7278.997,"end":7294.291,"text":"准許多重資金組合型這兩大類的基金可投資海外比特幣以該基金淨值5%為上限等於說一般投資人可透過這兩類的基金投資海外比特幣主委這部分簡單說明一下"},{"start":7295.952,"end":7323.513,"text":"這個其實我們在去年的時候呢就已經因為美國的ETF市場已經有有所謂的虛擬資產的ETF比特幣的ETF我們已經開放專業投資人去投資啦所以這部分我們現在還沒有開放一般人所以他必須透過這樣一個專業機構去做投資當然透過我們這行列的放寬一般人可以少量的透過這東西間接的去投資不過中間有經過專業機構的把關我想大概是我們現階段的政策大概是這樣"},{"start":7324.614,"end":7347.777,"text":"那我們上次也說我們會根據這個情況的這個執行的情形再來評估是否下一步我們是要再做持續觀察還是再做放寬這個風險控管一定要做好當然當然風險控管要做好雖然我們也樂見說不再沒守成規但是風險一定要控管好謝謝主委是謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":7349.939,"end":7355.217,"text":"好 謝謝寬恆 那主席在這裡宣布我們先休息十分鐘"},{"start":7380.56,"end":7381.224,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7432.108,"end":7446.408,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7458.029,"end":7467.961,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7520.133,"end":7522.875,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":7555.196,"end":7560.879,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7587.788,"end":7588.669,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":7624.056,"end":7624.616,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":8042.554,"end":8053.151,"text":"好 現在開始開會齁那接著我們請那個鄭振全委員鄭振全 鄭振全鄭振全不在那接著請鍾嘉斌委員花言"},{"start":8067.012,"end":8095.418,"text":"主席 站場委員 先進 列席政府經貸首長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請金管會彭主委財政部阮次長 央行的朱副總裁那最後面呢 會請法務部的劉市長準備好 彭主委還有阮次長那還有那個朱副總裁委員好好 來 先請教主委主委覺得今天天氣冷嗎"},{"start":8096.757,"end":8122.356,"text":"呃 還好 可以還好那我覺得今天的詢問你看有點冷清這個題目很重要我看大家寫得洋洋灑灑但是呢感覺上有人一頭熱有人幾頭冷不好意思我這樣說我今天的題目呢叫做國資撐國建本國的資金來撐起本國的基礎建設然後金融市場要國際化那亞灣先試點要導入外商"},{"start":8122.976,"end":8143.397,"text":"外 包括國外的專業者商 國外的商品但是要配套好 那我們來往下看一下今天這個題目呢我們的招委定的很大他就是說要促進台灣的金融市場規模發展要如何執行對不對那 主委 是不是說我們這個題目 隱含著台灣的金融市場規模要壯大"},{"start":8144.366,"end":8173.738,"text":"那當然 我們的金融市場要支撐經濟當然規模要持續的隨著經濟成長那這一點我看央行也很支持央行昨天的新聞就把他們報告人家寫了一篇台灣的超額儲蓄有壯大金融市場規模的效果那執行的策略我看這邊寫了一堆大概都是歐字頭的都是所謂的國際化的事務那為什麼主委認為透過我們的金融國際化可以壯大我們本國的這個金融市場規模"},{"start":8174.751,"end":8202.327,"text":"我想我們在整個這次主推的是資產管理那資產管理的概念就是說這個資產的所有權是我們的資金擁有者那怎麼樣透過一個專業的團隊幫他做最有效的配置跟所謂的資產的保全我想這次我們在做這當然會促進我們金融市場的發展比如他的徵聘人他的業績會增加營收會增加這些都是未來整個金融市場發展很重要的業務好 那終究我們要問一個事情啦"},{"start":8203.608,"end":8229.887,"text":"讓這些高資產者他把他的資產留在國內留資嘛先留資再引資嘛那撞到我們的金融市場然後呢有個目的嘛我們來看一下舉例啊那麼請三位這個政府看一下我舉豐電為例啦這個我就直接寫出來因為報紙的報導嘛就豐苗一期這是CIP哥本哈根他們這個虱目基金他CIP他所說的為什麼國際的虱目基金要來投資台灣的豐電市場"},{"start":8232.159,"end":8258.475,"text":"為什麼獲利可期嘛好賺他會再來嘛還在台灣做綠色轉型當然那是我們的目的但是對他來講呢像這種虱目基金他的投報率要高所以顯然的在台灣開闢封廠離岸封廠是投資報的投率很高的地方如果成功是成功的話那當然高風險高獲利高獲利一定有高風險不見得會成功一旦成功了他再把這個封廠經營權轉給其他的這個合計資金然後呢"},{"start":8262.457,"end":8286.276,"text":"這個時候呢他就可以從可能的接手的是我們是我們台灣的保險業者是不是這樣是好那我想請問一下你認為既然這個錢可以賺他們說他們這一期呢募得了CI第五期募得了130億美金你認為他從國際上募的資金有沒有台灣的資金去的台灣的高資產各位去買的"},{"start":8287.537,"end":8306.352,"text":"我想這部分我沒有證據你推論推論我覺得應該以台灣在全球的資金量應該是有參與的可能有參與的可能我問過了沒有為什麼沒有我不清楚但是CIP說他們在第三期第四期台灣的資金參與的還不錯但這成一個問題了"},{"start":8309.645,"end":8339.065,"text":"CIP他是一個國際的虱目基金他來台灣拿國際資金可以獲得高獲利再分潤給他的一個投資者但是台灣的投資者台灣自己本國的高資產者呢他卻要去參與他的第三期第四期結果他回過來是投資我們台灣重要的工建而這個工建還保證他一定可觀的獲利不是保證啦 很可能啦你覺得這是什麼原因我們來看一下就是今天的再往下 像米其林"},{"start":8340.245,"end":8359.237,"text":"今天我們說為什麼要推動雅灣台灣的有錢人去哪裡吃米其林在全球各地所以這些米其林的大廚吸引全世界各地的老饕美食家有錢人去他那邊吃"},{"start":8360.319,"end":8388.721,"text":"那現在如果我們引進一個米其林的大廚來到台灣他有可能就是把我們國內要去國際吃的這些美食家有錢人就不用出國啦就國內可以吃啦是不是這樣子那初期經營要先找國外的大廚來嘛或許未來可以培養我們國內的米其林天廚是不是這樣這是一個方法而且這個米其林天廚如果培養出來了會吸引國際的有錢人老饕來到台灣吃"},{"start":8389.909,"end":8410.909,"text":"那這樣的比喻,那對台灣來講,多幾家本土的米其林天廚跟米其林餐廳有什麼好處?除了滿足其他國家的有錢人之外,我們得到什麼?當然這個除了我們當本地客戶可以就地得到國際級的服務以外,那另外也會吸引到國際的人來這邊接受服務。"},{"start":8412.059,"end":8437.846,"text":"重點是他是用本國的食材啦我覺得他可以大量採用本國的食材所以我們現在往上看往回跳這是日本的方式嘛所以我們今天我們要做亞灣我們心中的目標初期台灣沒有米其林餐廳沒有米其林天廚我們開一家餐廳請外國的天廚來他帶來外國的食材帶來外國的料理帶來外國的菜單但是呢可能是外國的"},{"start":8438.294,"end":8456.822,"text":"的饕客來吃但是呢可以造福本國的饕客但終究我們希望未來台灣多幾家米其林餐廳多以本國的天廚使用本國的食材這是我們的目的嘛是的好那現在呢我們的市長我們的副總裁我來看一下"},{"start":8458.33,"end":8470.452,"text":"這裡面請問財政部你認為在推動這個事項上台灣作為亞洲資產管理中心台灣要設一個亞灣的試點財政部幫忙了什麼事情"},{"start":8472.369,"end":8497.683,"text":"你們幫了什麼事情我們第一個就是要就是基本上我們有兩大部分啦那你直接講你們覺得你們做了什麼事今晚會覺得你們幫上嗎第一個可以增加這個公共建設相關的金融商品嘛我們是鼓勵會發行這個永續債你們這裡面大概在第三頁啦才第二大段一點點來 彭主委你認為跨部會協助財政部協助你什麼"},{"start":8499.385,"end":8522.438,"text":"財政部在我們協助OIU租稅優惠延伸協助OSU延伸都沒什麼然後呢鼓勵公股銀行財政部鼓勵公股銀行進入專區這個都很基本的嘛然後呢提供TESA的租稅建議有嗎其實在我們一開始接觸的時候你們拜託財政部提供的TESA的租稅優惠財政部有幫忙什麼嗎"},{"start":8523.338,"end":8539.164,"text":"財政部在一開始給我們很多的資訊跟一些的思考我覺得非常感謝第一個就是比如說上次我們在前一次說明的一個就是主委你講得很客氣我問過財政部趁你不在的時候他說他們提供的這個租車優惠很夠用的不過用不完我請他們回去盤點"},{"start":8540.66,"end":8561.607,"text":"到現在呢還不曉得但是倒是有一個我很好奇的您說財政部有協助你們與本會及櫃買中心建立三方聯繫機制協助各級政府辦理發債有嗎現在有地方政府透過你們的協助開始發債了嗎這是我們在造園投資計畫裡面我們以內公債有嗎今年還是創新低欸"},{"start":8564.319,"end":8583.309,"text":"我們還是有各個地方政府發永續債還是有來財政部你們有幫忙嗎幫忙地方政府發債了嗎目前地方政府已經發了永續債已經發了157億那我們會持續來鼓勵他們以類公債是不是有史以來最低的以類公債的更多以類公債目前我統治的結果是三年來最低的"},{"start":8584.065,"end":8607.895,"text":"但是到目前為止已經發行了大概1474億這個這一部分是我一列公債所以永續債這一部分那我們現在已經就要求地方政府能夠如果符合我們希望未來這個雅資中心引進來國際的資金是來購買我們本地的尤其地方政府可以保障它的基層建設地方建設公共建設基礎建設包裝成商品來出賣給他們對不對所以我們才說"},{"start":8617.387,"end":8622.878,"text":"央行協助今晚會在推動雅灣或者是說雅致中心做了哪些事情你們寫了很多"},{"start":8627.564,"end":8642.538,"text":"我們請大家看到,換到我們的夜市,但是你看完了對不對,你有沒有看財政部怎麼寫,財政部只有第二大項,中央營養協助四項,一二三,"},{"start":8643.65,"end":8669.253,"text":"第二點OIU商品多元化OIU新設計還有第三點把你們的結會金額個人從500提高到1000公司有5000萬提高到1億你們做那麼多你們寫那麼多財政部今晚會認為說你們就幫幫他這些事情而已我們央行寫的比較總體就是用分類那財政部講的都在我們這些裡面好我今天坦白說我看了三個部位的報告"},{"start":8669.753,"end":8673.357,"text":"開放家族辦公室的業務這是誰開放的這是我們先開放我們可以做諮詢服務業務目前用什麼方式可以達到家業或財務傳承"},{"start":8692.008,"end":8717.855,"text":"他現在當然我們現在幾個工具啦一個比如信託還有就是說我們現在的做一個財富管理的部分本來就有幫忙你剛講到關鍵字信託這是我們舉一個例子我們把他的名字引航起來這是一個家族企業要財富傳承的目的大概是這個架構那怎麼樣確保家族成員出售股權造成家族企業的資本這個股權外流而將家族財產信託會遇到什麼問題"},{"start":8719.379,"end":8743.694,"text":"當然就是現在比如說我們現在的信託架構當然跟相較於比如說其他國家我們有看比如說他們的信託的那個期間可以很長比如說有些沒有期限有些100年那台灣的架構呢是這樣不過我們有跟法務部在做協調法務部也有提出一些想法來我們看一下這是我們法務部司長"},{"start":8745.459,"end":8768.304,"text":"這是一個國售的李長庚先生他說台灣的信託法是一大障礙很多有些人不能愛台灣只有進入戶口名簿的名字才能收益人以至於家族傳承的資金都跑到海外去做採管為什麼?市長現在台灣的信託法第三代上位出生的或者說還沒有結婚的可以成為信託的收益人嗎?未來"},{"start":8769.566,"end":8782.057,"text":"現在委員的詢問因為這涉及到我們信託法現行的法制能不能符合未來財政部金管會的相關的需求那整個設計上因為這個議題涉及到所謂的"},{"start":8785.62,"end":8798.669,"text":"目的信託 目的失業 目的信託的問題目的信託對 涉及到目的信託那因為目的信託現在在信託法的解釋上有不同的見解有人認為信託法可以規範已經有規範目的信託有些認為沒有規範"},{"start":8802.432,"end":8831.196,"text":"到底現在這個問題能解決嗎那因為目的信託它最主要是沒有受益人目的信託最主要是因為沒有受益人那它相關的制度呢它需要的相關的制度跟現行的信託法還沒有辦法完全的吻合所以法務部目前正在研修信託法那我們目前優先研議的是公益信託接下來就會繼續研議金管會所提到的目的信託好來 彭主席最後一句主席站起來了"},{"start":8831.676,"end":8856.471,"text":"聽到沒有 您聽到了他們優先研議公益信託你們希望的第二步在做所以是不是 主委要怎麼樣請法務部可以積極的來協助你們如果真的要做高資產客戶包括這些家族辦公室包括做財富傳承在國內 國外的法制它沒有問題國內有問題國內遇到這個問題怎麼解決 多久可以解決可以跟法務部一起共同研究來處理嗎"},{"start":8857.623,"end":8879.069,"text":"當然我想除了剛才修信託法是一個解決方法以外其實我們也還可以研議其他的方式來怎麼樣去解決不用修法就可以解決嗎我們正在研究我現在不敢說這是一個肯定的不過我們先因為修法畢竟是一個比較久不確定性比較高假設有其他方式比如說我們還有主管的信託業法"},{"start":8879.989,"end":8906.947,"text":"那這部分如果說有這個空間的話我們一起來努力反正老問題 新方法我們來試試看等等 等一會主席再講信託業法跟信託法是不一樣的一個是規範信託業者一個是規範信託的本質剛才說目的信託因為目的信託的受益人這個部分的問題造成台灣跟其他國家國家做財富傳承的時候他們不會有這個問題那台灣我們就會遇到這個司法性的問題所以多久可以跟法務部共同來 請法務部"},{"start":8908.756,"end":8930.966,"text":"協助或你們共同怎麼樣把這個問題做解決嗎因為這是行政院的政策我希望法務部你私下再跟嘉賓委員做報告那主委呢我們當然希望法務部盡快的來協助我們啦謝謝我希望下次在談這個議題各部位的報告最好能夠對準不要說央行說你們做了一堆"},{"start":8932.006,"end":8947.319,"text":"金管會看到只有三段財政部做的事情跟金管會期待的好像有點落差在這幾年之後我們希望再請召委繼續排定這個議題我們共同來推動好不好好謝謝謝謝嘉賓委員接著請羅明塞委員質詢"},{"start":8956.243,"end":8969.38,"text":"朱熹各位委員、朱烈熹官員大家好朱熹可不可以請今晚會彭朱偉財政部阮次長、央行的朱副總裁"},{"start":8974.076,"end":8986.857,"text":"主委好委員好你要力推台灣成亞洲的資產管理中心利益良善我們也看到你從上個會期到現在"},{"start":8988.956,"end":9016.785,"text":"很努力在做可是因為周邊單位啊步伐不一致造成啊成效不彰你們在跟財政部大概就是稅的部分以及央行的部分你們有沒有成為一個一個team財經的team然後可以真的來支持你成為亞洲的"},{"start":9019.188,"end":9037.982,"text":"資產管理中心財政部因為主推的是金管會財政部準備好了嗎我們基本上協助金管會來推動亞洲資產管理中心會全力支持還是做一半我們當然全力支持現在修OIU條例我們就同意謝謝 央行請問央行也準備好了嗎"},{"start":9046.415,"end":9063.526,"text":"我們現在有兩個部分有一部分就是在報告中寫的 已經做的還有一部分是因為要配合金管會這邊有實習我們在那裡擰動所以在我們報告中有四個部分第四點 雅灣專區這邊副總裁這樣 你準備好了沒啊"},{"start":9067.128,"end":9088.835,"text":"是準備在修正,我們外匯局有個team因為我看到主委他很積極,畢竟剛剛上任以彭主委他是點子王,以及他看起來比較年輕比較有很高的理想,想要做點事"},{"start":9090.083,"end":9108.008,"text":"可是,像即便匯20萬回來,你央行也查三次四次啊,台幣喔那你每次都是,當然啦,你們都說是要查一些這個什麼洗錢啊等等的齁,那請問央行"},{"start":9109.181,"end":9135.022,"text":"已經洗了這個三年多了,說要找這個洗錢的,國際的什麼洗錢請問央行啊,你們這幾年有發現哪一筆是洗錢的,比較大筆的,有沒有我想這個應該不是央行業的對不對,有沒有啦我問一下,因為這個是外匯局啊,外匯局你們管的,沒關係你是副總裁可能剛來還不大清楚,來外匯局"},{"start":9137.639,"end":9159.097,"text":"因為你要成為亞洲的資產管理中心勢必需要一個很自由進出的金融中心當然你的管控是在你的核心那應該是要利益良善"},{"start":9160.051,"end":9181.606,"text":"就是鼓勵為普遍那有問題你再特例抓出來好我們再回歸到這個問題央行這去年啊去年一整年你們查獲的洗錢有幾例金額是多少我想洗錢不是我們央行這邊去去查或怎麼樣那他銀行之間會去通報那個洗錢的主管機關算是就"},{"start":9181.886,"end":9209.399,"text":"所以我們央行的立場來講最主要還是為了假設不是扣除洗錢方面的我們的那五十萬一百萬相關的一些目前的規範大概都是最主要還是為了編制我們的國際收支所需來做這樣的一個銀行端會報給我們大概都是為了方便我們做比較準確的國際收支的一個編制所以去年一整年所謂的洗錢防治真正查到國際洗錢的有幾筆"},{"start":9210.98,"end":9229.322,"text":"總金額有多少這跟委員報告我們回去check一下就是我們目前應該是我了解是應該沒有這樣的一個每次回答都check一下你不是要說亞洲資產管理中心嗎所以當主委在往前衝的時候你們都在後面扯後腿"},{"start":9230.697,"end":9246.107,"text":"所以你造成現在的情況是普遍的台商在講你五十萬八十萬明明人家學他的兒子小孩就在英國念書會錢過去會是會到學校你一次要問三次要問四次"},{"start":9247.857,"end":9261.233,"text":"主委如果存在的情況是這麼嚴苛請問你要做的亞洲資產管理中心有哪一個人的錢願意回來台灣當然我們現在"},{"start":9265.12,"end":9294.059,"text":"其實從金額來看我們確實在推動這個過程當中已經在逐步顯現成效也跟剛剛委員稍微這個說明一下其實我們各個部會在過去我們非常非常密集的溝通那沒有委員講說他們就扯後腿那主委你記得說因為各個部會有他自己非常專業的考量我們都尊重但是我們持續的希望他給我們一些協助也有若干的時間了"},{"start":9295.66,"end":9323.051,"text":"大概還沒超過30年其實我們一般的公務人員大家都很認真唯一要突破的一個破口就是你把三個單位因為你每次我發現你要推都是A推B B推C答案永遠說我要再查查看我再去了解一下有幾個案例那洗錢總共有多少錢每次都有不斷的科目會出現"},{"start":9324.468,"end":9352.782,"text":"那造成你的推動力道明顯的打折我建議一個可以解決你的方法這個方法是累積多年的經驗如果你這個方法做起來做不成那你來找我我請你吃一碗牛肉麵你要不要試試看這個方法呢說難也不難你就把三個單位"},{"start":9354.488,"end":9374.734,"text":"重要的單位重要的人可以決定的人你全部叫過來從現在現在是早上現在11點嘛你就說我們為了推動台灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心大家心裡都沒有障礙就從現在11點現在11點開始開會開到中午肚子餓了叫便當"},{"start":9382.885,"end":9400.817,"text":"還沒有結論沒有關係到了晚上給他們選擇繼續吃便當你總要給他選擇啊吃這個排骨飯或是雞腿飯或是什麼飯通通可以你要讓他們有選擇晚上開完還沒有結論繼續開吃宵夜所以你要有這個精神才有辦法突破"},{"start":9409.912,"end":9416.118,"text":"不然我看半年以來所謂的OBU OIU OSU特別OIU的部分有沒有成果"},{"start":9418.686,"end":9445.421,"text":"OIU的部分剛剛有說明過去年基期很低今年我們有開放新商品跟新的做法我應該很有信心應該一定會有一些成果今天是幾月了今天是3月31號好了這個截至3月底之前OIU做了幾件金額是多少去年我們有個金額我們請局長待會馬上補充過來局長馬上說去年沒有嘛今年呢 今年做了多少"},{"start":9446.477,"end":9464.926,"text":"注意聽喔 這個很重要是 報告委員 今年的到一月份的那個有效契約件數不好意思 有效契約件數總共有672件那保費收入100多件 總金額多少到今年一月底的總金額有1600億左右1000多對 1600億 保費收入1000多億是不是抱歉 1000多萬"},{"start":9474.932,"end":9482.785,"text":"哇 我看一張 我以為是不是一千多億所以一百多件 總共是多少大聲一點 勇敢說出來"},{"start":9484.598,"end":9501.494,"text":"到今年一月份為止是一千六百萬哇 一千多萬我們龐大的團隊我想所有東西都一定要不要講OSU 來講一下有幾件OSU 我們來給委員這個數字"},{"start":9507.355,"end":9534.987,"text":"那我們是不是OBU要準備一下好OBU不用啦因為OBU大家都很熟OSU的部分總共幾件那總金額多少一千七百多萬多少一千多一千多億一千七百一千七百二十五億美元一千多億是不是對一千多億一千多億美元喔每一千七百"},{"start":9536.482,"end":9549.272,"text":"交易量對,就1700多億美元多億?有那麼多?有啊,OSUC有那麼多那它那個內容是什麼?為什麼這個金額會?是因為都是外資嗎?外資的進出還是?"},{"start":9558.305,"end":9569.79,"text":"主要是智盈的部分智盈的買賣所產生的智盈 買台股嗎買台股OK那我們發現買台股的部分今天那個股市暴跌"},{"start":9571.505,"end":9600.765,"text":"所以我剛講那個數字你再參考看看其實那個金額也不多啦因為買賣買賣像台灣的平均量那個成交量就大概五千多億了嘛所以你這個加一加其實跟你的目標還相距非常遠總之我希望你們這個三個單位要合作那當然我們會持續加強合作然後努力的達成協議做出成績"},{"start":9603.15,"end":9605.236,"text":"請問一下主委今天股市為什麼會暴跌"},{"start":9605.816,"end":9633.804,"text":"今天我想因為很多原因啦當我說今天早上從我們我們前一天我們的期貨那個收盤美國大概也我們相關聯動比較高的指數呢也做了蠻大的修正啦所以我們台灣是反映這個國際股市大概這樣一個情形所以台股會不會再跌這我不是分析師我無法做對未來做預測如果台股再暴跌的話國安基金會不會進場"},{"start":9640.09,"end":9660.86,"text":"我想這一次這個股市不是只有台灣的股市是全球股市所以現在還不會進場美國關稅政策的影響所以現在充滿了不確定性關稅政策的影響我上次在這邊質詢的時候所有的官員說影響不大結果影響不大台積電已經破一千塊了一直"},{"start":9662.794,"end":9689.477,"text":"執罪式的下滑股市最怕的就是不確定性跟預期心理所以像這種到目前因為他是講說4月2號他要宣布他的政策所以現在大家都在觀望所以台股如果再跌一千點破兩萬以後國安基金會不會進場這個我們到時候會評估啦到時候會如果有必要的話會召開這個相關委員會議所以可能會進場也可能不會進場"},{"start":9690.918,"end":9698.665,"text":"會討論這個事情會討論這個事國安基金會討論這個事可是國安基金的規模只有五千億啊主委你希望多少億的規模才會夠彭主委這個金管會沒辦法去對這個做評論因為這個畢竟我們對資本市場我們是一個資本市場的監理現在是五千億吧那個要由主政單位來決定那你覺得夠不夠"},{"start":9719.616,"end":9736.537,"text":"因為九年前規模只有七兆多現在市值的規道已經超過了幾億幾兆七十兆左右吧我來說明一下可以嗎因為我們國安基金成立的時候是民國八十九年那時候的市值大概是七兆多"},{"start":9737.538,"end":9758.111,"text":"大概八九兆那到最近大概七十幾兆最近有點修正那個超過八九倍啦超過九倍多市長我想就是說你可能會後找個時間到羅明財委員的辦公室不好意思超過時間謝謝謝謝委員謝謝那接續我們請李坤城委員質詢"},{"start":9775.322,"end":9781.785,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請這個彭主委還有財政部阮次長還有阮次長委員好主委好這個"},{"start":9788.177,"end":9810.945,"text":"昨天 根據報宅 昨天晚上賴總統在官邸有召開一個因應這一個美國的關稅戰有在官邸召開會議 那這個主委有參加嗎報告委員沒有所以這件事情跟你比較沒有關係跟你沒有關係喔跟我們有關係 但是我沒有參與這個會議跟你應該有關係 但是你沒有參與這個會議那財政部有參加嗎"},{"start":9814.555,"end":9829.647,"text":"我自己本人沒有參加 但是可能莊部長他有參加那你知道這個大概昨天因為總統顯見對這件事情很關心嘛才會特別召開一個會議那關於財政部這方面的話總統有特別提到什麼嗎"},{"start":9832.249,"end":9840.958,"text":"因為我來這邊質詢,部長沒有跟我提這個事情但是就我了解,就我們財政部來講,我們會盤點各相關產品的關稅的稅率因為美國有對等關稅的問題,所以我們會盤點"},{"start":9847.524,"end":9867.354,"text":"第二個我們應該會就相關的可能因應措施進行討論因為就在這禮拜啦如果按照報宅是4月2號那我就請教一下這個主委好了那請問一下這個台股那今天跌了700多點那從這個3月底的大概23000點到現在跌了將近3000點那您認為說這個跟這個關稅即將要課徵這個對等關稅有沒有相關的關係"},{"start":9873.837,"end":9891.088,"text":"我想從今年年初以來其實國際上特別是美國的政策有很多的這個不確定性的出現關稅是其中一個我想今天對台灣的股市這當然是一個影響因子因為它就直接影響到國際的股市了應該是一個"},{"start":9892.249,"end":9911.445,"text":"因為已經跌了快3000點那我要請教一下市長這國安基金跟財政部有相關嘛對不對是那這個有沒有提到說這個國安基金如果在因為這一個關稅假如說啦不曉得有沒有在這個沙盤推論裡面如果台灣被列入這一個骯髒十五國的話有沒有提到就是說那國安基金是否有可能會進場"},{"start":9913.561,"end":9942.06,"text":"這個還要看還要觀察因為到目前都還是還沒確定因為美國他有宣布說4月2號才會對外公布所以目前都還是不確定那確定以後到底對台灣影響怎麼樣我們會盤點那麼對股市影響怎麼樣我們也會去充分的去了解然後到時候必要的話我們會召開就這個您的觀點來講的話對於台灣來講是正面影響比較大還是負面影響比較大"},{"start":9942.901,"end":9946.45,"text":"是哪一部分的 關稅的部分就關稅這部分目前看起來這個"},{"start":9947.884,"end":9973.252,"text":"就看美國政策 因為這個部分我們真的沒辦法掌握了那總是有沙盤推演嗎 正面的跟負面的啊對 當然一定會有嘛一定會有所以我問你說負面比較多還是正面比較多啊這個我不方便 因為這個我不是主管機關我不方便在這邊說但是就我個人來講我是覺得就是說在台積電答應到美國做大額的投資之後那麼未來"},{"start":9974.412,"end":9992.738,"text":"未來在這個被加徵就是電子產品被加徵關稅的這個機會應該相對來講比較低一點這樣子好那再請下一下彭主委那對於這個我們這個上市櫃公司有沒有受到影響我們有做過盤點跟調查像比如有關關稅議題我們有請我們的兩個交易所"},{"start":9995.619,"end":10023.82,"text":"針對我們的上市櫃公司我想上次幾天前的質詢也有說過當然有少數的公司確實會在受到關稅的影響比較大他們也做過一些問卷的調查但是如果整體來看的話就不考慮消息面的心理的影響的話會影響的幅度確實是沒有我們想像那麼大這是我們透過交易所了解上市櫃公司的狀況你有沒有想到說大概有多少公司有可能會受到關稅的影響"},{"start":10024.941,"end":10040.611,"text":"上次有說明嘛或是我們可以請我們交易所這邊來跟委員那還是請這個 那時間先暫停一下是不是請林董事長這邊來做個說明好 說明 董事長林董事長是那個 李總經理 來"},{"start":10046.049,"end":10047.27,"text":"總經理要做個說明經濟部那30項的台灣出口區的大概2.多%"},{"start":10061.131,"end":10089.435,"text":"2點多可不可以再請董事長再講詳細一點這個我不太懂還是總經理要來好我說明一下就是經濟部我們有統計就是從台灣出口列為那30項輸美的佔的比重佔全體上市公司的營收是2點多那所以您的這邊是認為說影響還不是很大就對了是不是這個是從台灣出口的部分那進來的部分咧"},{"start":10091.451,"end":10119.165,"text":"進來的話我們並沒有統計我們是統計上市公司就是經濟部列的那30項出口的部分佔整體上市公司那大概有幾家公司啊這個部分的話我們會後再報告我們是統計比重OK好那請回那這個回到我們這個亞洲市場管理公司來請回這個有一項統計就是說各國所管理的資產佔GDP的比重台灣只佔4成然後跟日本"},{"start":10119.925,"end":10139.583,"text":"香港這個比起來很多日本差很多日本是有占110%香港占比是1066%新加坡也是打815%落差很大那所以說就這個諸位來講這個亞洲資產管理中心如果要成功的話應該就是要把這個管理資產占比要把它提高嘛"},{"start":10140.344,"end":10156.605,"text":"對 因為那個GDP我們也比較大所以當然我們的背景沒有啦 這個跟日本比起來那當然 我跟你說 假設我們相較比如說剛剛委員有提到 比如香港 新加坡他那個比較高因為他本來管理規模就大了他的分母又比我們小 那當然就很不算他日本咧"},{"start":10157.594,"end":10176.325,"text":"日本他本來也是一個非常非常大的經濟體那日本也在推這個還有就是說有關這個所謂的資產管理規模的計算其實上各國還是有點的差異不過我們看得出來台灣確實是比較低這是我們努力為什麼要好好來所以這就是你們要努力的地方"},{"start":10177.446,"end":10205.928,"text":"那我就這個外部資產管理公司這部分來請教一下主委就是說你們有一些法規上面的一些鬆綁然後但是也有一些外部資產管理公司他們認為說鬆綁的規模可能還不夠大那譬如說這個有關這個國外的私募資金的部分現在是有限制說一家只能跟台灣的一家的銀行來合作那沒辦法跟超過一家以上的銀行來做合作"},{"start":10206.816,"end":10233.184,"text":"對 我們過去確實有這樣 不過我們現在逐步在放寬中那你們的方向是怎麼樣啊因為現在比如說這些外部資產管理公司要來台灣 他們只能找一家來合作嘛那如果說是在我們這個特區裡面的話他是可以除了跟一家之外合作嗎 還是怎麼樣委員提到的是一個外國資產管理公司還是一個外部資產管理公司這兩個是不一樣的內容外部資產管理公司"},{"start":10234.325,"end":10262.341,"text":"對 我們講的是外國資產管理公司就是說外國資產管理業是比如說國外的資產管理在台灣設的這些子公司分公司嘛特別子公司那另外一個就是我們外部資產管理公司這是我們新開放的它是提供一個顧問業務這部分 其他這是新的但是我們對於就比如國外的這些資產管理業在這邊的一些的這個規範呢我們已經有請期局這邊逐步的再去做一些調整啦對好 那請問一下"},{"start":10263.402,"end":10290.054,"text":"就是說目前你們對這個投資有沒有一個最低的門檻我們現在的話就是因為我們現在國內的執照比較特別我們大概就兩個法定的執照一個就是投信一個叫投顧投顧裡面它有一些的業務範圍它是名列在投信投顧法裡面的但是我們其他還有一些其他金屬管局同意的業務範圍我們可以在這時候做一些適當的放寬"},{"start":10291.094,"end":10318.188,"text":"因為我們國內沒有一個叫資產管理業的執照沒有像比如說國外有九號牌啦或是類似像這樣專門做資產管理業因為我們過去大概都是以有價證券作為一個前提那其實在做資產管理的時候它不限於有價證券相關它可能還有其他比如說不動產或是其他的資產所以我們這次呢在外部這個資產管理這個業裡面呢我們有做這樣的一個在事辦區裡面我們做一個這樣的放寬"},{"start":10318.928,"end":10331.256,"text":"那我是說有沒有就是說一個門檻比如說要比如說一百萬還是三百萬美金就按照我們現在投信跟投顧特別是比如他那一個門檻只看你做的業務而已有點差異這樣那總是有一個素質出來啊你這樣講我還蠻"},{"start":10338.581,"end":10357.283,"text":"還蠻rough的我也不太知道說那你大概就是1億元1億元對我們現在的門檻就是你如果做高展客戶大概就是剛剛同學跟我講的是1億元1億元是300萬美金差不多300萬美金那有沒有調降的可能性就是說讓那個門檻低一點然後能夠讓更多的人進來"},{"start":10358.524,"end":10380.822,"text":"這個部分我們現在是既有的這個規範當然未來我們會看實際上運作的情形我們再來做那還是說這個大概300萬美金就是只能固定在一家還是說你不是好幾家合起來可以300萬美金這樣子這部分跟合作銀行之間的那個內容這個可不可以請那個我們局長來跟委員做簡單的說明一下謝謝"},{"start":10385.133,"end":10394.267,"text":"我們一般來講看他公司的規模如果需要整合的話我們再來看他有沒有需求因為你們有一個最低我是說那300萬美金就是1億台幣是說我只能在這一家"},{"start":10399.383,"end":10424.397,"text":"那還是說呢 我可以好幾家合起來 三百萬就可以了只單純一家來看啊那我意思是說有沒有可能放寬啊但看將來的需求如何情況 我們再來看我是說在市辦區的話 理論上是可以放寬啦因為它只要合起來有三百萬美金的話那其實是可以吸引更多的外資來到這邊啦"},{"start":10425.976,"end":10441.492,"text":"那你如果說單就一家就只有這個三百萬美金的話那等於是說他如果要來投資的話就必須說他可能要有更高的這個金額才有辦法過來啦那吸引的加速可能會比較少啦我的意思是這樣子啦所以我才說這個專區有沒有去做一個調整"},{"start":10444.017,"end":10456.141,"text":"專區的規定我們就是隨時滾動調整因為這畢竟是一個大的實驗示範辦法所以這部分我們按照實際的申請的情況我們在未來會來做一些滾動式的調整我是覺得說盡量調這個放寬的這個方向來走好不好"},{"start":10460.522,"end":10487.581,"text":"當然從我們整個政策的架構我們會來思考市場的需求就是這部分我們會未來隨時滾動的去思考這應該要做什麼微調因為很多東西也是我們在事辦區第一次做這件事情這為什麼要透過事辦的原因也在這裡我們想說透過小範圍風險可控的情況之下我們先來觀察這樣的開放對市場的影響那我們再來決定下一步應該是做全面的開放還是做一些微調"},{"start":10488.943,"end":10493.226,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝坤城 接著請李燕秀委員質詢慢慢來 喝完水再下來好 我請主委還有國發會的處長好 請主委跟國發會處長邱處長好"},{"start":10519.53,"end":10532.606,"text":"主委好 邱处长好我想先就我们金融并购的问题来跟主委做讨论去年七月份的时候我也关注到我们整体台湾的金融业的规模"},{"start":10533.567,"end":10552.121,"text":"到底夠不夠大在國際上跟國際型的金控公司相比事實上我們目前在全球的總資產在金控的部分想要排前50名恐怕都有點困難即便是我們台灣目前的國泰金跟富邦金合併才勉強達到我們的最低門檻22.5兆元就是說我們台灣雖然銀行數夠多但是過於零散"},{"start":10561.408,"end":10577.84,"text":"那在國際性的大型銀行的部分其實我們這一部分也還沒有辦法達到國際一定的水準所以也就是說我們現在台灣整體的金融業是面臨巨大的挑戰所以我們看到20年前我們欣展銀行在哪裡我們都還看不到"},{"start":10578.28,"end":10599.836,"text":"所以我上次才跟您提到說我們如何把世界背所以您上次也跟我回應說我們透過優質的併購也是一個方向還有什麼其他的方式那我們現在我們金融產業我們過去一二十年我們人才都投資到台積電高科技產業去還有一些傳統產業那我們現在金融產業佔GDP"},{"start":10605.72,"end":10624.949,"text":"GDP的比例大概只有維持6%左右我們現在要推亞洲的經營中心資產管理中心到底我們GDP在金融行業占台灣的GDP到底多少你認為才是一個合理的比例是 謝謝委員我想剛剛提到有兩個問題一個就是說"},{"start":10627.21,"end":10653.525,"text":"整併是不是未來我們金融業發展的方向特別是我們面對國際競爭的時候我想這個絕對是一個方向之一那對不起主委我接著問你你上次也提過我也同意因為過於零散怎麼樣更競爭力達到國際的一定的水準跟標準那到底以台灣目前這麼多家多少的數字整併成多少的數字五家七家怎麼樣的一個數字才是合理的"},{"start":10654.185,"end":10674.302,"text":"其實跟委員報告我研究這個議題超過20年我覺得不可以陷入在數字的迷思因為數字本身會跟相對的不同市場的結構有不同我是覺得應該是這樣數字本身它比如說今天14家15家10幾家這其實重點不在這邊那達到多少的就是說"},{"start":10675.043,"end":10701.216,"text":"重點是說診病之後達到多少的規模才是你認為是優質的一個合併的方式所謂的優質的診病就是說雙方有共同的目標這個我知道因為我今天很多議題要請問主委診病的結果是雙方所有共識而且是朝向一個共同目標那當然就是說規模這件事情要看你要在什麼地方你的主要鎖定你的策略群組的競爭對手是誰"},{"start":10703.177,"end":10719.438,"text":"那這部分假設我今天要打亞洲杯或是打比如本土杯或是當你要進軍到全世界我們現在要打的是世界杯沒有我覺得世界杯就是一樣我們必須很務實就像我們台灣現在很多的金融特別我們金控公司在亞洲已經開始有它的能見度"},{"start":10720.319,"end":10734.366,"text":"但是又說但是我們要先打亞洲杯再打世界杯嗎那如何打到亞洲杯所以你剛剛講了幾個條件我都很清楚優質的合併啦在內部的溝通這個都是基本的ABC這是標準流程我都很清楚"},{"start":10736.347,"end":10760.904,"text":"當然整併是一個方向那到底這個金融的產業佔我們GDP的多少你認為才是一個合理的數字我想其實就從整個國際上數字沒有一個所謂的因為這個牽涉到你的分母跟分子的問題當然但是要達到你的目標你覺得多少是一個合理的數字當然我覺得說以台灣的金融業最近幾年的這個重要性我當然希望這個比例能夠提升提升到多少 你的目標是多少"},{"start":10761.585,"end":10774.603,"text":"因為你過去是教授你一定有這一方面去教導學生那你現在再回到今晚會主委這個位置你總是有一個目標跟想法嘛你不會沒有設定目標嘛你很清楚你現在主委不肯回應我"},{"start":10776.425,"end":10796.237,"text":"不會回應因為我沒有根據的事情我不會隨便的那目標在哪裡或者是說多少年可以達到你有沒有目標就是說多久之內可以達到那這個數字大概是多少你覺得我們要發展金融管理中心它才是一個有競爭力的管理中心或者一樣又跑到其他國家去我們變成是口號而已啊"},{"start":10799.159,"end":10813.568,"text":"我覺得啦 因為這是一個分子分母之間的關係至少我們的金融業的成長不應該落後於我們的GDP的成長分母這是絕對應該是這樣的但比如我們比較其他國家很多這個比例來看的話它的產業結構不同啊"},{"start":10815.517,"end":10838.187,"text":"他比如說有些國家專注於在金融服務業那他的分子當然特別的大但他整個GDP他就占一個最大塊那你用這個來比我覺得是很難假設是一個產業非常非常大的那個國家來比的話那不見得這個比率的上升下跌說不定是我金融業產生但我GDP縮水了那這樣也有這樣的結果但是我覺得應該是金融業應該經濟同步成長就是說我們能至少"},{"start":10838.507,"end":10856.129,"text":"那以現在台灣的經濟成長你覺得以今年好了以今年台灣經濟成長或過去三年經濟成長你認為應該佔比多少才是一個讓我們台灣的金融行業是一個有足夠競爭力在亞洲我先不講世界先講亞洲好了"},{"start":10857.017,"end":10872.106,"text":"如果說假定我們的分母是不動的話當然我們的金融業持續成長那個比例就會上升但是我覺得這不太可能這個其實我跟委員報告不是說沒辦法跟你報告這個數字確實這很難用這樣的衡量因為我的分母也會大我的分子也會大"},{"start":10873.507,"end":10901.127,"text":"對沒關係你有很多衡量的指標跟數字但是我還是希望不管分母是什麼數字是什麼有多少的係數跟風險因素在裡頭我覺得既然我們已經設定目標那就要更清楚的讓我們大家都知道你怎麼去設定那多少其他配合才有機會達到那樣子的目標否則我們今天在這邊排專報或者是你過去說你一直喊說要成立亞洲的資產管理中心我們擔心就會變成是口號"},{"start":10902.808,"end":10922.24,"text":"所以具體怎麼去實現它是很重要的亞洲的資產管理中心如何流財引用是非常重要的過去我們就有四支箭如何吸引保險業者投資台灣的公共建設我們都非常清楚台灣的受險業目前的資產規模是32兆台灣的投資大概佔了45%也就是14.4兆元"},{"start":10930.425,"end":10949.71,"text":"我們有四支鍵包括你之前提到包括讓我們保險的投資公共建設可以投資公共建設然後我們風險係數要降低包括擴大保險業可以投資公共建設並且納入促參公共建設有四支鍵但是保險業最關心的你也非常清楚就是兩個核心問題"},{"start":10951.01,"end":10977.815,"text":"有沒有投資標的還有投資的方式是什麼那在投資標的的部分因為對於受選業來說他一定要賺錢否則很難跟保護交代那所以我們政府如何搭建一個更完整的平台譬如說你的收益率包括風險評估要必須公開包括我們儘管我們要哪些投資標的是要夠他可以看得到你才有辦法留錢留這些錢放在台灣投資嘛"},{"start":10980.595,"end":11008.88,"text":"那我們現在這樣的平台包括跟國發會有沒有做可不可以做得到那是不是已經上線了既然我們四支箭從去年12月已經喊了那到目前有沒有這樣子的網路相關的資訊資料可以讓壽險業去做完整的評估有沒有是謝委員剛剛提到我稍微提供一下比較新的數字我們大概37兆的資產沒關係數字不重要就是你的投資標的跟投資的方式夠不夠完整"},{"start":11010.28,"end":11037.877,"text":"剛剛委員的部分就講了就是我們現在在由國發會主政跟財政部跟我們金管會有個兆元投資計畫有個平台那個平台裡面就會揭示我們所有的大概相關比如說我們有跟產業有產業的提案還有由政府來提案的部分我們大概就是一個個針對這個案源去做分析看有沒有具有未來已經有了是不是已經上網上線公開了那另外一個就是固定收益的部分因為這是受險業者不可能"},{"start":11038.637,"end":11053.571,"text":"實際下去經營對他來說最簡單的就是一個固定收益的部分所以過去我有提到公共建設證券化的部分其實對於業者來說是比較具有吸引力的那這個部分上次你們說要評估諸位也回應我說要評估那有沒有做"},{"start":11057.333,"end":11075.701,"text":"現在我們在公件的證券化部分現在走的比較快的是債券化就是發永續債這些東西呢實際上這個債券化是比較快速的而且這邊現在成熟度比較高那至於說發行其他的比如說比較偏權益相關的有價證券那個比較複雜我知道比較複雜但是對於業者來說是不是會"},{"start":11081.423,"end":11099.425,"text":"也一樣有吸引力我覺得雖然比較複雜我們該做還是要去做那當然就是我們要創造萬一創造出來就不符合我們投資人的需要那當然是就比較事倍功半但我們嘗試去尋找跨部會的協商尋找更多可能未來公建的案源"},{"start":11100.246,"end":11114.883,"text":"是 包括主委那我就要請教你就是說我們要留錢留錢放在把這些錢資源資金留在台灣其實很重要的一個因素就是大家會去考量是一個地緣政治的因素"},{"start":11115.985,"end":11136.287,"text":"投資其實除了會不會獲利之外地緣政治就是一個很他們也對於投資者來說他也會去做評估包括巴菲特他之前2022年他有台積電ADR但是他持不到一季他就把它賣掉了對他來說他可能損失了將近2000億台幣所以體質包括台積電這麼好的公司"},{"start":11137.068,"end":11153.481,"text":"巴菲特居然在手持不到一季之後他就把它賣掉所以可見地緣政治他也承認是一個他評估非常重要的一個指標所以國際資本在追求獲利投資回報的同時他同時必須要去兼顧到風險的管控"},{"start":11155.342,"end":11175.424,"text":"所以在這邊我要再次的提醒主委我們亞洲的資產管理中心能不能成功其實地緣政治也是一個國際資本考慮的一個重要的指標跟方向所以我覺得在這一塊你一定要有機會跟卓院長跟總統反映這件事情"},{"start":11176.525,"end":11198.045,"text":"我不知道巴菲特有沒有後悔啦我只是說但是就是說我們不會因為有困難而不推我們有我們的優勢我們按照發揮我們的優勢當然我們有我們的優勢但是我們怎麼樣留住國際的資金放在台灣包括國際的資金也都承認我們在地人政治上確實是一個評估重量的考量所以台灣的"},{"start":11199.286,"end":11209.691,"text":"地緣政治的穩定度 環境的穩定度也是一個國際資本能不能留在台灣重要的指標 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝燕秀 謝謝謝謝主席 我請彭主委好 彭主委"},{"start":11225.509,"end":11227.59,"text":"165的打炸儀錶板在今年2個月"},{"start":11244.022,"end":11260.557,"text":"就有高達兩萬三千多件最嚴重的是財損已經達到一百五十六億兩個月主委你覺得這個情況有改善嗎我們花了那麼多的力氣跟法案跟相關的人力物力這個情況還是不斷的在發生"},{"start":11260.657,"end":11290.197,"text":"我想如果說我們把那個時間拉長來看跟相較於去年11月的高點來看的話我們也看到數字有明顯的下降當然還是很高我想我們還是要持續的努力其實是蠻可怕的就是國人在這上面還是不管我們用盡各種方法還是有這麼多人受害不過大部分經過調查大概就是假投資啊網路購物啊交朋友啊還有盜用帳號但是比較嚴重的都是被害人最後是透過ATM去操作"},{"start":11291.178,"end":11309.337,"text":"ATM操作這件已經成為所有的被害人幾乎共同的經驗而且存款不管是各種狀況我們現在相關的打造業表板上面ATM被害的案子就已經一千兩百多件也就是說銀行局我看到他二月份的時候邀請各銀行來討論其實對於檢調單位"},{"start":11313.061,"end":11328.449,"text":"很重要就是利用ATM提款的時候不管是車手或者是民眾去轉帳其實都有可能可以阻詐的機會所以當時銀行局向銀行建議的是說用ATM提款轉帳的話"},{"start":11330.475,"end":11348.849,"text":"都有監視器其實如果用AI去辨識的話可以要求他露出全臉或者是沒有露出全臉的不讓他領權會限制他的一些功能這件事情現在進度怎麼樣現在的話我們上次因為這主要是有業者主動提供這個想法"},{"start":11350.21,"end":11375.739,"text":"現在如果AI辨識我們手機都可以辨識你有沒有戴口罩了我相信只要加入這些軟體的升級還有一些時間趕快進入我覺得這個部分金管會應該要大力的推動因為我們在我們有固定的跟銀行之間的聯繫公共機制已經有銀行他已經在做這個評估我們去查了一下公研院其實他們94年就已經有研製類似的監控系統"},{"start":11376.579,"end":11395.394,"text":"其實銀行也應該都有我想是各單位我想街大的銀行大概都有所謂的智能ATM正在成形我只是希望我們金管會能不能統一或者大家一起來努力很簡單第一個戴口罩的人可能不要他領第二個最嚴重的就是"},{"start":11398.149,"end":11411.647,"text":"邊領錢邊打手機打電話的那個就是歹徒在操控他的這個很可愛的有個日本大阪府他直接立法禁止在ATM前使用手機打電話我們也看到這個新聞"},{"start":11412.808,"end":11430.249,"text":"所以這部分可能是我們阻詐的一個可以的方向所以主委大家已經在做了而且有已經發現這個問題所在所以邊領錢邊打電話可能就是詐騙的其中一部分尤其是老人家這部分我們是不是可以從今天開始"},{"start":11431.19,"end":11453.569,"text":"給我一點一個可能我們可以做的時間表可以沒問題我可以跟委員提供我們現在的私底下提供我們食物現在進度因為很多事情不方便公開的說智能ATM可能是下一步組炸第二個當然可以更便民那最重要的是我們可以讓所謂的車手他領不到錢讓錢出不去這個可能是最最有效的方法"},{"start":11453.949,"end":11481.179,"text":"對 他做一個警示的功能讓他說這個ATM是有防護的而且全民可能看到人家戴口罩戴安全帽去領錢可能稍微看一下第二個就是如果有人邊打電話邊理ATM後面的人也把他提醒一下其實我們跨銀行的溝通機制裡面我們都會把隨時有一些新的想法但是我們如果可以在第一時間在他領錢的那一剎那讓他變得很困難"},{"start":11482.441,"end":11503.98,"text":"至少緩衝他被詐騙或者是緩衝他領錢的機會其實我們還有想到很多其他的方式我們盡量用低成本來產生大小我想這個是我們接下來要做的用科技的方法用AI辨識的方式其實現在就可以組掉一半至少一千多件的ATM領款可能就會收到"},{"start":11506.061,"end":11528.371,"text":"接下來就是要問一下主委有關我們國際我們要做亞洲資產管理中心剛剛有很多同仁都已經問過了主要是其中一項很重要是家族辦公室家族資產的管理我想主委上任之後我也跟主委討論過為什麼台灣我們對於看到非常非常的有錢人他們常常在打遺產爭奪官司"},{"start":11530.362,"end":11552.698,"text":"或者是說他們自己的財產分配怎麼會做的這麼差第三個就是為什麼我們的法規還是會讓寫了遺囑的人不斷的碰到各種的爭端那最嚴重的是我想問一下這個資產亞洲資產主要是要針對國外的客戶還是國內的客戶我想這兩個我們在很多的政策宣示上我們這兩個都是我們爭取的對象"},{"start":11555.281,"end":11562.571,"text":"比如說把台灣變成大家可以把錢放在這邊做好管理那其中有一塊我看到你們的東西"},{"start":11564.244,"end":11587.729,"text":"我看到那個信託公會他們有發聲明第二個信託我認為是一個資產管理很好的工具跟方法但是現在看起來是信託目前是就資產管理公司部分我們現在是以銀行為第一委託人我同意但是信託其實是一個很好的方法至少某個程度可以讓"},{"start":11588.849,"end":11612.364,"text":"委託人有自由意志來指定他的財產受益人但是我們看到我們跟國外很大的差異就是我們只能指定受益人在國外可以指定我的小孩我的孫子我的曾孫子我未來未來不知道幾代的孫子都可以也就是現在台灣目前這些法規能夠配得上嗎"},{"start":11613.468,"end":11639.764,"text":"現在確實剛剛也有委員有關切這一點我們剛剛也有特別請法務部的同仁來說明就是說現在確實也有一個提案是希望來修信託法那我們也跟這個委員會也答應說我們會來跟法務部再來想我覺得這個是我們如果要跟國際接軌要讓大家把資產放在台灣來做管理的話你可能必須要跟不要說什麼 瑞士銀行為什麼可以"},{"start":11640.604,"end":11659.993,"text":"幾百年因為他們就幾百年前就接受了所謂的信託他們可以照顧他的家族一輩子可能下輩子我們要跟其他市場做競爭很多的法制應該要比較有一致性的這個可能是在亞洲資產中心很重要的一塊這也是我們推動的一個一環我們會持續來跟法務部來合作我覺得這個是最重要的一環否則"},{"start":11661.394,"end":11678.683,"text":"台灣早就會有人把錢放到這邊來第二個就剛剛講的還有地緣政治嘛我們要讓人家成為把錢放到這裡來放心的地方我們就要做讓人放心的方法第二個讓人放心的法規能夠配合的上好 現在那請那個法務部也上來好嗎"},{"start":11684.898,"end":11689.764,"text":"最後點時間我想跟主委討論一下就是上一次我問了有關虛擬貨幣現在美國川普總統已經把它作為所謂的"},{"start":11696.267,"end":11717.161,"text":"戰爭儲備 政府的儲備第二個我們後來就很好奇他用什麼儲備所以他說他要去沒收扣押的錢 扣押的虛幣所以我們就跟法務部調了台灣的政府也扣了很多虛幣法務部知道我們現在扣了非常非常多的虛幣我們的價值大概有多少"},{"start":11720.878,"end":11724.78,"text":"法務部提供的資料去年4月到今年3月一年比特幣扣押了將近203枚"},{"start":11738.266,"end":11758.003,"text":"折合台幣是5.5億以太幣2000多枚折合台幣1.47億還有很多穩定幣所以目前為止這些是政府扣押中的它可能有幾個去處第一個是要拍賣然後還給被害人第二個是有一些被政府沒收將來變成是法務部的資產可能是國家的資產"},{"start":11759.224,"end":11786.309,"text":"我上次有跟主委提過有關我們虛擬資產業者我們要開始納管是的這些將來可能的儲備現在可能就要開始討論所以我現在提供給你一個方向就是假如我們也有所謂的扣押的虛幣在儲備上面也可以作為金管會將來要訂立儲備安全網的部分是的這個部分可以跟法務部一起來討論一下有關未來"},{"start":11787.679,"end":11804.671,"text":"如果發生虛幣的問題虛幣的儲備要怎麼安排如果美國政府可以做那我們是不是有一些法案法規要來一起修正讓這些虛幣成為政府儲備的一個部分我想這部分是未來建構市場上面"},{"start":11805.652,"end":11829.739,"text":"假如它是一個成熟安全的市場遲早都會有建立遲早會來只是什麼時候來那現在有的相關的機制我們可能就要開始先做預防而且最重要的是我覺得虛擬貨幣接下去的納管在台灣應該會引起蠻多的迴響接下去民眾投入的會更多那安全性跟將來政府必須面對它"},{"start":11831.219,"end":11844.247,"text":"處理他這個問題會就在眼前好嗎是謝謝這個部分我也請主委就上次已經答應我要給我一個初步的方向好嗎是的有好謝謝好謝謝珊珊接著請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席首先邀請金管會"},{"start":11865.959,"end":11884.784,"text":"我想對於整個確保公平待遇平和的機制的一個公平性我們首先來討論因為大家存有許多的疑慮第一個也就是目前我們的機制消費者爭議情形它只佔了平和的總分的20%"},{"start":11886.284,"end":11905.3,"text":"但是這才是平衡公平待客是否落實的關鍵指標第二個負責平和的政績會與金融業者當然關係很好所以在這樣的情況之下要如何的確保平和的一個獨立性"},{"start":11906.101,"end":11919.998,"text":"第三個平和結果僅公佈前50%的機構表現較差的業者資訊沒有向社會來揭露那所以可能恐發這個市場的一個"},{"start":11923.541,"end":11949.906,"text":"監管效果呢會有打折扣所以針對這樣子的一個情況請教主委那監管會你要如何的來確保公平待客的評管機制的一個能夠有公平性跟獨立性避免流於這個形式因為我們要考慮到消費者爭議的處理的評分的一個權重"},{"start":11950.546,"end":11954.64,"text":"它是非常重要 它實際上是最重要的一個關鍵"},{"start":11958.402,"end":11980.048,"text":"所以加強不良機構的資訊揭露來提升整個評鑑的真實性跟透明性我覺得這個我們有待討論所以這三項請周回答謝謝委員的提示我想第一個其實我們公平待客原則是涵蓋面非常非常的廣"},{"start":11981.068,"end":11998.642,"text":"剛剛沒有錯這個消費爭議絕對是一個非常重要的這個指標所以我們這次其實20%不算低我只是想說這部分因為我們還要考慮很多很多的這個問題而且我們這個消費爭議的部分本來還有其他的控管的機制在控管這個那第二個就是說"},{"start":11999.423,"end":12027.912,"text":"我們過去都是由金管會自行來做這個評估那但是我們整個趨勢來看畢竟金管會是個監理機關所以我們過去呢相關的比如說ESG的評鑑或是永續金融的評鑑我們大家都委託這個就是接下來交給這個專業比如說交易所或是交給我們的三個周邊單位透過專家學者的方式來做我想這部分把它制度化這是一個那當然我覺得政經會本身是否跟金融關係密切我想它的角色就是一個在"},{"start":12029.432,"end":12055.631,"text":"這個就像政績會它的功能我覺得它是屬於一個不是一個這個所謂的業務單位也不是一個所謂的這個那個營利單位那再來至於說這個未來指標出來怎麼公布這部分呢我們會來想想看就怎麼樣產生最大的效果我們來做這件事那其實我們做很多評比並不是要真的要讓市場產生比如說很不好我們是希望督促金融機構能夠朝好的方向"},{"start":12056.431,"end":12069.323,"text":"主委你現在講的這個督促這個也就是消費者末端他的一個需求跟民意的一個反應當然現在做了一部分那就是說針對第一項消費者爭議的部分佔20%那你認為說這個評比是蠻夠的但是民意認為我所需要的那這一項評比是不是可以再增加"},{"start":12079.853,"end":12082.814,"text":"你去研議第二個也就是負責評審的單位當然不管是政經會也好那監管單位也好他們來行所以當然是很好但是在攻擊的方面有沒有達到獨立性跟公平性這是你監管會必須要去督導的"},{"start":12100.16,"end":12107.723,"text":"第三個最重要的也就是你現在你剛才有回答說這個50%有討論的空間所以這一項應該要好好的去研討是不是你只有公佈前50%那真正差的你不公佈那這個是不是讓末端的這個消費要怎麼樣的讓市場可以均衡的這個機制有待考慮"},{"start":12125.731,"end":12138.423,"text":"你認為也是那你去評比好不好你評比出來有怎麼樣的經濟方案給本席沒問題謝謝那接下來請到財政部主席財政部財政部次長"},{"start":12142.478,"end":12164.555,"text":"市長我們每一年公布這個欠稅大戶在2020年到這個我們公布的是915件那麼總共有895.121但是我們看到現在追回的數字是越來越少我不知道原因出在哪裡因為15年來你們分為三段的時期來追"},{"start":12165.336,"end":12175.518,"text":"在這個情況之下我給你一個數字2010年到2011年你追回了20億2012年到2018年你追回是11到18億那2019年是5到8億也就是近兩年你是5.9億、5.43億去年半年你追回了2.85億換句話說你累計追回的是245.19億但是你是逐年的在下降"},{"start":12194.002,"end":12218.485,"text":"原因到底是什麼那你要怎麼樣去精進把這個追稅成功因為這是你每一年公告那你公告的跟追回的成效差距那麼大原因到底是什麼 請做說明這個基本上就是追稅基本上要能夠掌握這個納稅藝人的財產如果你沒有辦法掌握他的財產的話你就很難追了"},{"start":12218.885,"end":12241.592,"text":"那所以市長這個就是財產他轉移你當然追不到可是你每一年這麼公布那你不自己打臉嗎這樣好不好我是不是會後再把相關的資料再送一份給所以我們用數字告訴你是年年追回地錢你去進行方案給本席好不好還社會一個公益嘛好嗎謝謝謝謝瓊雲委員接著請王洪威委員質詢"},{"start":12253.807,"end":12256.188,"text":"這兩天大家都非常關心股匯雙殺"},{"start":12273.581,"end":12289.26,"text":"那按照我們的統計在今年3月外資賣超已經創紀錄了那請問一下主委你認為是什麼樣的原因造成我們今年3月外資會逃走這麼多"},{"start":12292.302,"end":12313.124,"text":"我想今年確實到三月大概外資賣超的金額應該有六千多億累計超過六千億對 去年一整年大概是六千九百七千億左右那確實這個數字是不正常也不是就是外資在台灣的台股的戰力其實沒有太大明顯的波動"},{"start":12314.085,"end":12318.847,"text":"比如說我們大概現在43那去年大概今年年底大概45左右不是就我們的這個金額外資賣超剛講去年一整年6900億今年已經到第一季過去就已經超過6000億什麼樣的原因然後你覺得有什麼樣的對策"},{"start":12332.128,"end":12347.214,"text":"我想資本在投入這個股票市場本來就是他有他自己的投資策略就像我們如果把時間拉長的話他有買有賣那有賣才有買我想這部分大概是股票市場大概都是這樣"},{"start":12347.534,"end":12374.98,"text":"主委請問一下我們3月份外資賣超創紀錄外資這樣大量的流出跟今年3月份賴總統提出賴17條有沒有關係我想這個部分儘管會沒辦法針對某個特定去做連接不過我們就看到一些市場從今年以來確實跟隨美股的這個這個腳步高度的連動我想也不是只有台灣的股市當然整個亞洲股市的"},{"start":12375.64,"end":12400.45,"text":"我们今天的报告主要是希望台湾能够成为一个资产管理中心但是这几天确实让很多投资人看到是心惊肉跳这当然跟地缘政治有没有关系其实是显而易见当然因为4月2号川普政府要提出有关的他的一个关税那么当然造成全球股市的一个波动"},{"start":12401.03,"end":12408.722,"text":"但是在台湾来讲非常特殊的是我们股会都受到影响来我想请问一下央行副总裁"},{"start":12411.755,"end":12419.701,"text":"而不但是股市的暴跌而最近以來新台幣也是一樣的在狂跌以上週我們台幣已經貶弱10年來的新低這個是非常特殊的那我想請問央行"},{"start":12433.752,"end":12447.694,"text":"如果今天講的是川普政府他的貿易政策關稅政策但是今年以來所有的亞洲貨幣除了越南盾跟我們一樣是貶值但是他的貶值的幅度沒有我們這麼多"},{"start":12449.264,"end":12471.616,"text":"如果日元升值 韓元升值 新加坡幣升值 人民幣升值但是只有新台幣獨憔悴 而且創下十年來的新低 這個是什麼原因當然最主要原因是剛才委員已經談到一個川普這個政策不確定性引起"},{"start":12472.336,"end":12479.278,"text":"但是其他的貨幣 其他亞洲貨幣都在升值啊只有我們在貶 重貶這個部分其實一個川普 這麼多個世界嗎是 其實我們如果看它的一個波動幅度台幣還是相對穩定那這個部分比較詳細 具體的我是不是請我們外匯組長來補充等一下 因為我時間非常有限我要請教的是"},{"start":12499.582,"end":12502.843,"text":"因為新台幣貶值其實呢對物價的這個影響是很大的雖然在上個星期五這個電價沒有上漲讓我們可能面臨的通貨膨脹的壓力物價上漲的壓力稍微稍微可以喘口氣但是貶值下去尤其台灣我們的天然氣我們的石油99%都是要進口啊所以我想請問中央銀行"},{"start":12529.648,"end":12533.877,"text":"對於這個新台幣貶值可能造成的我們國內的物價上漲的壓力通貨膨脹的壓力你們的對策是什麼呢"},{"start":12542.488,"end":12569.689,"text":"第一個外匯市場穩定性也是我們關心的至於進口因為台幣貶值這個部分其實在評估上因為我們的穩定性基本上就穩之道那我想請教副總裁擔不擔心新台幣繼續貶下去對我們物價會造成壓力當然會擔心所以我們隨時會去關注外匯市場的波動"},{"start":12570.63,"end":12598.865,"text":"所以在這邊還是要提醒央行因為在世界各國的匯率尤其我們跟我們一些主要的競爭的國家跟地區我剛才講在亞洲貨幣同樣的川普政策人家都在升值而我們貶值越南頓在貶值但是沒有我們貶的那麼兇那我擔心的是對於物價上漲會造成不利的因素這一點就是要拜託中央銀行"},{"start":12600.106,"end":12625.916,"text":"多多的關注好不好謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝洪威謝謝委員那個林思銘委員改書面執行齁邱志維邱志維邱志維委員不在張家俊張家俊張家俊委員不在王世堅王世堅王世堅委員不在徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在張祺凱張祺凱張祺凱委員不在葉延芝葉延芝葉延芝委員不在齁好"},{"start":12636.789,"end":12657.863,"text":"今日登記花園的委員都已經質詢完畢那因為那個在場的委員不足以那個法定人數臨時提案一案不宜處理那我們現在本日會議做成如下的決定一報告跟詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆及"},{"start":12658.763,"end":12679.364,"text":"及請補充資訊的時候 請相關的部會在一周內以書面答覆委員另外有請求期限者則其鎖定那林思敏委員她提的書面質詢 經列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關的部會以書面答覆本次會議議程已進行完畢"},{"start":12680.385,"end":12683.168,"text":"如果有不在場的委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"}]}},{"id":"159815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e531f5680ea50b4cf134c8d3588d9758e6c75f6b5b4b5fbf8cec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:07:55 - 11:16:31","影片長度":"00:08:36","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 委員許宇甄等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-31","start_time":"2025-03-31T11:07:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-31T11:16:31+08:00","duration":516,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.27971875,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.68721875,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.51784375,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.82971875,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.65221875,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.91346875,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.43596875,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.473468750000002,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.80221875,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.135343750000004,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.90659375,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.04534375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.55971875,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.38221875,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.63909375,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.845343750000005,"end":57.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.17221875,"end":70.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.82159375,"end":75.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.81659375000001,"end":77.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.36471875000001,"end":83.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.42284375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.36721875,"end":90.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.83096875000001,"end":92.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.60721875,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.12159375,"end":107.82846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.25034375000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.08096875000001,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.61596875000001,"end":128.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.55096875,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.27909375000002,"end":140.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.17346875,"end":142.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.82721875000001,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.73409375,"end":146.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.40471875,"end":147.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.43409375000002,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.68221875,"end":153.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.59346875,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.80409375000002,"end":156.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.23846875,"end":163.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.73534375,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.85596875000002,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.58971875,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.99034375000002,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.92784375000002,"end":234.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.36971875,"end":236.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.88846875000002,"end":238.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.33971875,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.09471875000003,"end":242.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.03096875000003,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.29596875000001,"end":253.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.39034375,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.38096875,"end":278.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.59909375,"end":285.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.39971875000003,"end":288.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.80846875000003,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.33096875,"end":295.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.61346875000004,"end":298.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.78159375,"end":301.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.34659375,"end":303.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.50659375000004,"end":306.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.13909375000003,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.10909375,"end":312.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.99034375,"end":323.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","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最煩意的因為妳若是看得懂的話,有可能她跟頭疼閉起來差不多,但是頭疼是付出妳的生命,付出妳的健康做代價婦人不但這樣,因為妳沒有給她賺錢,賺錢給她算了"},{"start":112.173,"end":115.757,"text":"如果把他脫款 脫費了 你看我看 很多人脫牌啊 又把他解散了付錢可以說是非常非常珍貴 非常非常有本意可以說是讓我們整個人類對這個地球付起責任"},{"start":128.79,"end":154.548,"text":"婦人不是天外背來的婦人存在這個地球數百萬年啊所以啊 咱只要人類用科技 科學 神用婦人可以幫助大家婦人可以提搬婦人可以創造恢復的家庭依靠她還可以創造人類幸福的生活當然 安全不可忽略"},{"start":155.851,"end":176.643,"text":"要怎麼安全?專家、學者、教人這麼多,不聽他們的意見,他們有領略改革,讓他們政敵打壓,他們就要派社工委,點點不出聲,我認為這是台灣的損失。所以台灣人,不以蒙主揮霍,我們有很多很好的科學家,我們有很好的工程管理,"},{"start":177.623,"end":189.126,"text":"別人做得到,我們也做得到,不能一直跟台灣倒退路我感覺大家正常、理性來面對這個問題該安全就安全,該贏就贏不能為了要賺太多高級的利潤,一個政黨、一個派出生日二十幾間公司煮飯後十萬變成幾個八千萬,四年多而已,錢都退回去"},{"start":201.63,"end":206.172,"text":"要補台電的 一千 兩千 三千繼續補說我們一千億補他 他就不會給我們企業 別再拖下去了我們過去補他三百一千億 他給我們企業 企四百各位鄉親 你聽得懂嗎一百一千億 再補他 哇 好事 他反正會給你企業為什麼會企業 不可以怪台電的 因為靈魂 政策 偏差我們現在不可是米霧丟霧 把這個放入了 並不是今天要處理啊"},{"start":229.722,"end":231.223,"text":"謝謝謝榮介委員的發言 接下來有請張祺凱委員進行發言"},{"start":265.681,"end":284.845,"text":"現在我相信有很多民眾都在看現場的這個直播他們關心的一定是希望今天的會議不管是哪一黨的立法委員跟我們的政府讓我們的電價不要再往上漲了而且有機會往下降"},{"start":286.482,"end":312.407,"text":"所以包括民進黨的立法委員請你們對你們的民眾要有所交代我現在發現了民進黨現在是跟民意在對撞我剛才已經強調了全世界先進國家都在用核廢料他們認為可以處理安全也沒有問題結果民進黨現在說我們台灣不安全"},{"start":314.039,"end":335.707,"text":"我們的核電已經用了40年 核一核三很安全核能扮演台灣經濟發展的火車頭穩定 價格低又安全全世界發生過核災的日本福島核災非常嚴重美國發生過山梨島 台灣沒有發生過核災"},{"start":337.657,"end":357.146,"text":"美國跟日本現在都重啟核電了結果民進黨現在在跟他講美國日本我們不要學我們自己是不安全的我們有這麼多專家學者台灣是個寶島啊那現在民進黨說台灣是同飛什麼地方有這麼多專家而且現在的法律條文是在確認安全之後才會啟動嘛"},{"start":364.758,"end":392.149,"text":"所以我請,我想現在是一線之間我請民進黨包括今天發言的立法委員你們能夠以昌生為念以昌生為念你看,光是失業以後要漲價那個對人民的民生跟產業的衝擊就有多大好不容易,電價審議委員會做了動長的這個決定若民進黨政府今天繼續杯葛繼續拖延"},{"start":393.988,"end":420.009,"text":"那十月份再漲電價那就請民進黨政府跟民進黨的立委來負責任另外我想提一個點你們剛剛一直在講核廢料怎麼處理我請你們思考一個問題你們現在是執政黨欸現在的核一廠也有核廢料啊核二廠也有核廢料啊核三廠也有核廢料啊你們民進黨的講法是什麼現在現有的核廢料都不用處理嗎"},{"start":422.693,"end":447.906,"text":"科技在進步啊第一個是科技要進步第二個對啊啊你們怎麼樣那現在有核微量你們就不處理了嗎所有人都要去面對這個問題嘛是不是你們現在這個問題有辦法解決嗎而且我要提醒我們的核微量的處理長久以來我們核貨端的這個基金我們每用一度電"},{"start":449.246,"end":472.639,"text":"我們的錢都有放到基金裡面去耶將近四千億的錢耶我們還設立了核安會我們的專家學者那麼多長久以來我們的安全沒問題為什麼現在到了民進黨的嘴巴裡面變成台灣式不安全的最後我做個結論請民進黨看一下最近的民調最近這兩三年"},{"start":474.025,"end":491.159,"text":"多數的民意都是贊成要用核電的連我們的公投都已經通過以核養綠事實上最近的民調也看得出來連民進黨多數的民眾很多民眾也是支持要用綠電的同時也要用核電"},{"start":493.629,"end":507.32,"text":"民進黨政府現在你們不只跟世界潮流在對撞你們跟民意在對撞的同時你們是不是也跟多數的你們要不要回去看一下你們的民調你們多數的民進黨職責真的希望你們再繼續杯葛不用核電嗎請慎思給台灣的電價有下降的這個機會讓我們產業能夠好好的發展謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16556","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d84f0cb0beb0459e041e98b117513a6ae1c35f50c34d2eafa00ccb3ac232e5bb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 委員許宇甄等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-31","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-31T08:30:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-31T13:38:00+08:00","duration":18428,"影片長度":"05:07:08","委員發言時間":"08:30:52 - 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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二 文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況並被質詢本次議程有柯智恩委員等21人提出質詢均經文化部部長李遠及相關人員及其答夥說明另有委員林倩琦 許新穎 陳培宇提出書面質詢決定"},{"start":1818.766,"end":1830.715,"text":"一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報三 對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆 選讀完畢謝謝請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好 謝謝那我想我們的議事錄就確定"},{"start":1848.746,"end":1875.304,"text":"那今天的議程我們繼續審查核子反應器設施管制法也就是核管法相關修正草案等五案包括委員王宏威等19人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案一案"},{"start":1876.977,"end":1898.153,"text":"委員邱振軍委員等22人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案委員蘇清泉等26人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案"},{"start":1900.595,"end":1919.407,"text":"委員羅志強委員等21人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案委員翁曉琳等19人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案"},{"start":1921.343,"end":1948.139,"text":"并审查核子反应器设施管制法相关修正草案等5案。台湾民众党党团拟据核子反应器设施管制法第6条条文修正草案一案。徐兴营委员等20人拟据核子反应器设施管制法部分条文修正草案一案。"},{"start":1949.383,"end":1959.214,"text":"委員葛如軍委員等18人擬具核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案一案"},{"start":1960.796,"end":1984.666,"text":"委員徐宇珍委員等22人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案委員楊瓊英委員等21人擬拒核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案議案今天進行逐條審查"},{"start":1987.557,"end":2012.182,"text":"那我們首先介紹在場委員我們先謝謝林一錦召委范雲委員陳秀寶委員張雅玲委員吳佩奕委員武力華委員劉書斌委員"},{"start":2017.072,"end":2039.266,"text":"羅志強委員徐宇貞委員張嘉靖委員我們也介紹在場與會官員我們先謝謝核能安全委員會核安會主任委員陳明貞陳竺偉"},{"start":2043.476,"end":2068.684,"text":"核能安全委員會核安會副主任委員張欣張副主委那再來是經濟部政務次長何進昌何振翅謝謝何振翅經濟部國營事業管理司副司長劉啟孝劉副司長經濟部能源署主任秘書翁素珍翁祖密謝謝"},{"start":2071.226,"end":2096.092,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司台電董事長曾文生曾董事長謝謝台灣電力股份有限公司台電副總經理徐永輝徐副總謝謝國家發展委員會產業發展處檢任繼政鄭永明謝謝法務部參事汪南君汪參事謝謝"},{"start":2100.455,"end":2128.286,"text":"好 我們也謝謝柯志恩委員到場 謝謝陳培宇委員 謝謝還有林佩祥委員 謝謝本案已於民國113年7月10日詢答完畢有新增台灣民眾黨黨團等五個提案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同審查"},{"start":2139.107,"end":2148.61,"text":"那我們今天有提案的委員我們可以來進行提案說明那我們是不是請徐宇甄委員進行提案說明謝謝"},{"start":2164.231,"end":2184.904,"text":"主席還有各位在場的官員還有各位同仁大家早有介於當前的國際能源的發展趨勢以及國內產業轉型跟用電結構的快速變化本席這次提出《核子反應器設施管制法》第六條的修正草案期盼能為我國的能源政策提供更具彈性的調整空間強化國家電力供應的穩定與安全"},{"start":2188.346,"end":2213.319,"text":"全球正在邁向淨零碳排而核能已經被許多先進國家重新定位為乾淨的能源2022年歐洲議會也正式將核能納入綠色能源分類而美國、日本等22國也在去年的聯合國氣候峰會共同承諾將於2050年前將核電的規模擴增三倍這一連串的國際趨勢反映出在穩定"},{"start":2215.11,"end":2232.701,"text":"尋求穩定供電與降低的碳排的雙重壓力之下核能也重新扮演不可或缺的一個角色那目前全球已經有多國的核電廠實施研議的計畫日本在112年2月底通過核電廠研議的法案允許核電廠達60年的商轉年限"},{"start":2235.583,"end":2259.778,"text":"而美国核准研疫的核反应器数量也达94个而研疫后最高运转时间也可以达80年而比利时于2022年3月决定将两座反应炉研疫10年到2035而法国政府于2030年的投资计划中也公告在确保安全的前提下延长所有可延长的核子反应器的服役期"},{"start":2261.059,"end":2278.89,"text":"因此本席認為這次的修法就是希望能夠把制度更完善一點也讓國家有更有彈性的一個方式能夠更有效率那因此本席提出這次的修正草案是將前向運轉執照之有效期最長為40年"},{"start":2280.251,"end":2286.655,"text":"其滿需繼續運轉者經營者應於執照有效期屆滿前向主管機關申請換發執照未取得換發執照前不得繼續運轉但經主管機關確認和反映設施安全無虞時得繼續運轉"},{"start":2297.921,"end":2312.326,"text":"而经营者于运转执照有效期建满后经主管机关确认核反应器设施完整性及系统功能符合法规的标准得申请再运转执照再运转有效期限最长为20年"},{"start":2314.247,"end":2329.029,"text":"而我想能源的轉型不應該只是理想的追求更必須面對現實的挑戰也希望各位委員能以理性務實的態度支持這項修正草案讓我們共同為台灣建立一個更穩定更乾淨的能源未來謝謝"},{"start":2335.148,"end":2341.661,"text":"好 謝謝許宇甄委員的提案說明我們接下來有請劉淑冰委員代表民眾黨黨團進行提案說明"},{"start":2366.455,"end":2377.539,"text":"主席還有河安會還有行政部官員各部會的首長我是列席代表還有各位委員大家早安那我今天代表的是民眾黨來對於"},{"start":2381.963,"end":2384.006,"text":"今天這關於說核子反應器的設施管制法這部分做一個提案的說明那我們最主要是針對第六條的部分做說明那我說一下這個提案的主旨是什麼因為"},{"start":2396.963,"end":2424.651,"text":"目前在全球大概有核電廠這個研議計畫是很多國家他面臨到像311的10年前的這個311的這個事件之後呢都有一些修正然後當然最重要是因為這個淨零碳排的這個影響那日本我們看到最新的消息是在112年2月的時候呢就已經通過了核電廠的研議法案大家可以知道他當初是一個核電的一個這個受災國那他就允許了核電廠研議20年"},{"start":2426.972,"end":2441.355,"text":"那這樣子呢還可以達到的說可以延長到60年的這個商轉期限那美國呢那這個是一個對我們核能的這樣這個誘的攻擊當中最重要的一個國家那美國呢核准研議的核反應"},{"start":2442.176,"end":2443.957,"text":"的這個反應堆的數量已達到94個那研議後最高的運轉時間可達80年這我想核安會或是我們原子能委員會都知道那比利時政府呢他在2022年3月的時候呢決定將兩座反應爐研議到10年然後延伸到2035年那法國這個核能大國呢他"},{"start":2466.13,"end":2481.406,"text":"在2030年的投資計畫當中在France 2030的這個公告他確保了在安全的前提下注意喔是安全的前提下呢延長所有可能延長的核質反應爐的這個服役期間那我國呢應該參酌其他"},{"start":2485.712,"end":2509.724,"text":"國家核電廠演繹的情況修法以緩解能源結構配比失當所造成的危害好那第二點呢我們所看到是核三廠呢目前在運作的一號期呢是在一一三年的七月會到期已經到期了那現行的法規當中呢將要換發執照申請的旗艦呢授權核安會以行政命令的方式去進行"},{"start":2511.285,"end":2526.493,"text":"並規定在執照屆滿前5年及應提出換照時有未到那因為這個時間可能有不同的考量但是重要的是我們提出了增修第二項就是在第6條第二項部分將本法關於執照屆期前"},{"start":2530.902,"end":2553.304,"text":"因於主管機關在規定的期限內申請換發執照的規定修正為因於執照有限有效期間屆滿一個月至六個月的時間內向主管機關申請經主管機關確認核子反應設施安全無虞時得換發執照以放寬"},{"start":2554.885,"end":2558.066,"text":"換照的申請期間那每次的換照有效運轉期間呢以10年為限那這個部分就是說也是必須要以核安為重點的考量那為避免呢我們的法規受限制於"},{"start":2570.731,"end":2577.08,"text":"導致政府上司調節能源供應配比的手段我們也新增了第三項規定使運轉執照於已建滿的核電廠得與主管機關確認核子反應爐"},{"start":2585.592,"end":2591.493,"text":"核子反應器設施安全無虞後呢再申請運轉執照那這部分也是因應到我們的核三廠的二號機到五月份的時候可能就執照到期但是如果現在的這個法令是沒辦法已經不在五年之前這樣子做這樣的一個決定那當然也是因為台灣的目前的這個能源配比當中有了相當大的一個"},{"start":2611.658,"end":2617.964,"text":"並沒有達到目前的一個需求尤其是供電的需求更重要的是還要考慮到淨零碳排的一個趨勢好謝謝好謝謝劉書斌委員進行提案說明那請"},{"start":2650.933,"end":2653.576,"text":"好現在請葛如軍委員提案說明好謝謝"},{"start":2662.947,"end":2684.106,"text":"非常感謝我想本席核子反應器設施管制法修法的重點有三點第一點現行的核管法第六條將核電廠的換照期限授權主管機關也就是核安會以行政命令的方式訂定那他在這個核子反應器設施運轉執照申請"},{"start":2686.837,"end":2702.455,"text":"和審核辦法的第16條當中有規定經營者也就是台電需於運轉執照有效屆滿前5到15年提出申請那這顯然是沒有辦法解決我國核電廠所面臨的問題"},{"start":2703.917,"end":2729.849,"text":"那先前已經有非常多的機組陸續關機核三廠的二號機將在5月17號停機那因此我們期望討論進行修法將它改為有效期間借滿前皆可提出研議申請而這樣的一個需求在各國的核電的法規以及實務的執行上也都已經逐步開始在落實"},{"start":2731.616,"end":2756.651,"text":"第二點核電廠如須研議現行的法規需待經營者也就是台電提出換照申請以後核安會才會進行各項的安全評估然而核安會身為我國核能安全的專責機關理應掌握核電廠各項設備的狀況因此修法賦予核安會主動評估的權利如果核電廠保存狀況良好"},{"start":2758.132,"end":2778.255,"text":"在核安会确认安全无虞以及它的安全性可被确认以后应可自动研议20年使其有效期限达60年有鉴于第三点有鉴于核二厂以及核三厂的一号机已经停机依现行法规将无启用之手段"},{"start":2779.376,"end":2801.088,"text":"為因應國際環境變遷緩解我國用電壓力增進我國的能源安全、國家安全、國防安全以及經濟的發展之需求修法是以停機之核電廠在經核安會確認其安全性以後得申請再運轉執照"},{"start":2803.584,"end":2831.433,"text":"在此也分享我们检视核电厂研疫的情况法国有56座运转中的反应炉平均寿命超过38年其中20座的反应炉运转都已经超过了40年截至2024年的5月份美国已经有96座的反应炉通过延长使用执照审查并且已经有66座进入了延长运转"},{"start":2832.313,"end":2856.778,"text":"可以在执照到期以后再继续使用20年其中又有22座反应炉提出执照更新申请若通过核管会也就是美国核管会的审查可以再延续再多20年等于是总共80年那已经有6座反应炉通过审查台湾的反应炉的设计跟美国反应炉一样"},{"start":2858.191,"end":2886.483,"text":"既然美国大多数的反应炉可以研译,我们也希望台湾的反应炉能够研译。在过程当中,经过台电,经过核安会,我们非常多的专业的人员持续的维护我们的核电运转的安全,到目前为止也可显见安全无虞。如果我们能够进行研译,确实的来进行安全的检测,持续完善的维护,相信可以确保核电厂的安全性。以上,谢谢。"},{"start":2891.135,"end":2915.573,"text":"好 謝謝葛如虛委員的說明好那委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分提出那我們相信核管法的"},{"start":2917.266,"end":2934.901,"text":"這個修法應該是每一個政黨都能夠參與的所以我們希望能夠在10點30分以前提出大家都可以一起來參與那我們現場也有一個倒數計時器來協助委員們確認是否還來得及提出那我們希望能夠"},{"start":2935.942,"end":2957.969,"text":"有更多的提案我們更充分的來討論那處理提案的時候如果提案委員及連署委員均不在場我們原力不以處理那我們現在開始逐條審查核子反應器設施管制法修正草案相關修正草案請議事人員宣讀條文內容"},{"start":2959.969,"end":2965.872,"text":"並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":2980.787,"end":2988.931,"text":"主席那個程序問題不好意思程序問題你起來先停止宣讀啊程序問題要先處理好 主席謝謝是這樣子喔 就是我們要進行主條之前應該要先進行大體討論"},{"start":3003.737,"end":3005.539,"text":"那我想因為這個其實攸關這個全民都愛看今天這個核管法的修法所以我想是不是先進行大體討論"},{"start":3032.537,"end":3036.042,"text":"好謝謝這個提案我們先休息五分鐘可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":3063.47,"end":3068.255,"text":"先回答題討論主席有權益主席有程序問題提出主席有權益主席有權益主席有權益主席有權益主席有程序問題提出"},{"start":3080.669,"end":3100.589,"text":"有問題等休息完了再提出了五分鐘了五分鐘我們是先提出大題討論憑什麼先休息我們是先提出大題討論主席請先回應可不可以進行大題討論你要休息再休息主席請先回應可不可以進行大題討論再請要休息再休息主席已經拆定休息了我要去洗手了"},{"start":3100.709,"end":3130.04,"text":"主席不顾程序正义就罔顾就乱喊休息主席请先回应好我们倒数五分钟我们可以讨论我们就是透过休息的时间来讨论一下我们等一下大体讨论的做法不是主席我有程序关于这个程序问题应该直接主席因为刚才我们要讨论大体讨论之前也必须要先把原来的条文都念一遍不是吗没有不是喔同学如果没有这样子要怎么讨论吧不是这样先大体讨论才是主条"},{"start":3130.62,"end":3131.52,"text":"好,那我再詢問一下討論,了解,謝謝"},{"start":3162.745,"end":3163.206,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":3180.878,"end":3181.198,"text":"致電話聲音"},{"start":3210.287,"end":3220.479,"text":"我們就先給你們看三張圖案我們先給你們看一個超高度的圖案我們先給你們看一個超高度的圖案"},{"start":3240.043,"end":3240.464,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":3258.643,"end":3260.424,"text":"對,我等於就送了,不知道給不給我證據啊。"},{"start":3290.035,"end":3290.195,"text":"主席"},{"start":3318.806,"end":3325.868,"text":"以前議員票有這樣過嗎?去年嗎?就每次這個都會去年每次這個都會我記得那個OK我信你啊"},{"start":3349.141,"end":3349.521,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":3392.11,"end":3393.692,"text":"現在都到了 每一節"},{"start":3410.742,"end":3417.064,"text":"好 謝謝我們休息結束因為在場剛剛有委員提議要進行討論我們依據立法院職權刑事法第九條雖然我們的大體討論跟廣泛討論一般是在院會進行但是我們也是有潛力在委員會的我們相信核管法確實是大家關注的議題我想有更多的討論也沒有不好"},{"start":3435.051,"end":3452.57,"text":"所以我們就依據立院職權刑事法的第九條我們也就把廣泛討論呢挪至委員會來進行那我們待會有要發言進行廣泛討論的委員呢請到前方登記登記時間呢到10點鐘截止那每一位討論的發言時間兩分鐘"},{"start":3460.441,"end":3489.444,"text":"那三分鐘好謝謝好那我們就三分鐘謝謝大體討論不限次數吧我想希望是以一次為主但如果還有需要後續討論我們當然也希望也許我們還有第二次發言的機會好不好我想今天我們就讓大家來討論主席你要不要具體的承諾不要說也許可能"},{"start":3489.984,"end":3507.804,"text":"好那我们就两次为准为什么是两次因为过去的惯例我们通常讨论就是两次没有什么过去的惯例你们在很多事情上都不按照惯例你们很多事情的意思都不确认了有什么惯例可言没关系我们是尊重主席好不好我们回答更多的机会讲清楚你就是尊重主席"},{"start":3508.104,"end":3514.146,"text":"好謝謝那我們就先以這個發言時間三分鐘那我們預計兩輪的討論那如果這個討論還有需要進行我們還可以再繼續討論是否繼續謝謝那我們現在有請廣泛討論發言第一位范雲委員"},{"start":3540.235,"end":3567.002,"text":"主席跟同仁大家好我認為今天昭緯排審這個條文就是很抱歉昭緯雖然是AI專家但是您在我們這個和安會教育委員會時間真的不夠久就是以上一屆我想應該是上一屆吧柯志恩委員曾經排過一次就是尋答的時候當時的問題到現在有哪一位藍委有提出來嗎"},{"start":3567.662,"end":3592.213,"text":"所以我認為今天排審這個條文呢第一個不負責任第二個非常非常不專業先講不負責任我們都記得上一次這個條文 詢答是去年是不是當時我們問了何廢料先講低階的至今沒有解方因為曾經經濟部選址在金門烏丘跟台東達人因為地方政府反對連公投都不敢辦"},{"start":3595.654,"end":3614.579,"text":"請問陳玉珍委員解決了金門烏丘的問題嗎黃建斌委員這個台東的解決了這個問題嗎核廢料至今無解今天我們武力華委員在場我們是如何對得起蘭嶼的原住民更不用講高階核廢料到現在連一個處置方式的一個"},{"start":3615.419,"end":3619.383,"text":"法規都沒有那今天我們召委要排這個你是不是先把高階核廢料的怎麼處理的這個法你先提出來如果沒有的話那真的是不負責任第二個我要講非常不專業而且是政治凌駕專業"},{"start":3632.055,"end":3647.489,"text":"這麼多國民黨委員上面寫的前言核能是綠能我要告訴大家也請我們的台電核安會經濟部告訴大家在台灣核能是綠能是個謠言你們用的這些法國政府的這些資料"},{"start":3648.73,"end":3669.146,"text":"請你回去看一下歐盟提出的歐盟分類法它第一個要符合綠能是有前提的要被納入氣候變遷減緩的項目必須至少有兩個條件不符而第一個要不造成重大傷害標準條件就是對中等低等級極低的放射性廢棄物可用的最終處置場"},{"start":3670.307,"end":3682.979,"text":"第一個必須在國內如果在國外的話兩國要達成協議而且處置國具有合適的處置設施跟計畫第二個核電廠要符合歐盟標準足以抵抗極端氣候包含地震的評估請問這兩點"},{"start":3685.441,"end":3710.303,"text":"我們做到了嗎剛剛講到的前面的不負責任到現在低階都無法移出蘭嶼高階更沒有個辦法都沒有完全不符合歐盟分類法對於能夠納入氣候變遷緩減的項目所以你就算今天你強迫通過了那對我們以出口為主的這些企業這些高階根本不符合你們所謂的這個綠能"},{"start":3712.085,"end":3724.256,"text":"那請大家告訴大家不要讓藍委的不專業的謠言繼續在台灣散佈我還有三秒鐘所以我認為昭偉您今天排這個東西不負責任第二個不專業以上謝謝范雲委員的發言那接下來我們有請林怡瑾昭偉進行廣泛討論發言"},{"start":3740.095,"end":3762.848,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天國民黨排出這個核管法的逐條審查就是為了讓核電廠演繹我想這個很清楚那我本席在這裡想要問一個最根本的問題也是最關鍵的問題就是請問核廢料怎麼處理大家有沒有想想要放哪裡啊"},{"start":3763.849,"end":3788.179,"text":"那可能大家印象很模糊我請本席再讓大家回顧一下馬雲久在2011年的時候就曾經在能源政策記者會上表示核一 核二 與核三廠不再研議國民黨黨主席朱立倫2016在當新北市市長的時候也曾說過沒有辦法處理核廢料就沒有資格使用核電還說2025一定要達到非核家園的目標"},{"start":3793.787,"end":3820.353,"text":"現在的新北市長何有宜更是多次的強調沒有能力處理核廢料就沒有資格用核電請問國民黨是忘記了嗎還是害怕想起來本席想要請教我們國民黨的委員們核電廠如果持續運行的話那持續暴增的核廢料要放在哪裡有沒有人自告奮勇說來核廢料放在我的縣市有沒有基隆"},{"start":3823.857,"end":3851.791,"text":"還是台南 新北 桃園 新竹我想喔 沒有有哪個委員可以扛下來我想大家來明確表示一下再者啦 2013年壓力測試歐盟同行審查報告就有提到台灣遭受天然危害例如地震 天災極端氣候的影響或火山爆發的風險越高於世界上許多其他的地區特別是"},{"start":3853.051,"end":3861.813,"text":"遠高於接受歐盟壓力測試的核能發電廠的歐洲國家所以我們不能跟歐洲國家來類比好那現在要討論研議的核三廠恆春的活動斷層是通過廠區的像台灣面積那麼小如果發生核災要承受風險不是只有南台灣而已是全台灣"},{"start":3873.596,"end":3903.156,"text":"所以本席認為在國際趨勢之下政府應該致力推動再生能源發展以及電網的更新才是能源政策的正本清源那政府的能源政策必須要做好妥適的能源分配那如果要談核能研議我們就要加以考量老舊核電廠的安全升級跟它的檢修的成本你如果把研議時的這個安全強化措施成本再加核廢處理的所謂的成本納入考量"},{"start":3903.676,"end":3924.683,"text":"那這個核電的成本那麼倍增根本無助於穩定電價那可以說是與國民黨核電重啟才有辦法穩定電價的說法剛好背道而馳那所以無論是說談核電研議或者重啟成本都相當相當的龐大那除了安全上不可行我想我國"},{"start":3925.643,"end":3938.534,"text":"能源的運轉政策也排擠發展再生能源的資源所以本席要強烈的呼籲在野黨就要放下所謂的修核管法這樣的想法以及發展核電的堅持我們應該把這個珍貴的資源專注在有效的能源發展的解方"},{"start":3945.78,"end":3960.715,"text":"例如我們深度節能或者能源轉型共同來支持推動再生能源才是上策那同時我們也要注重對後代的永續發展真的不要做一個不負責任的修法者以上謝謝林一錦召委的發言我們接下來有請武力華委員進行廣泛討論的發言謝謝"},{"start":3980.113,"end":3999.338,"text":"謝謝主席 大家早安提到蘭嶼 我想讓大家先看兩個字叫做暫存那大家想一想 我們的政府把核廢料暫存在蘭嶼有多久了"},{"start":4000.452,"end":4001.973,"text":"實際上根據2017年的一個原能會針對台電蘭嶼儲存廠遷廠規劃報告當時是說"},{"start":4012.952,"end":4029.581,"text":"109年3月要完成選址以及土地的取得大家都很清楚知道完全沒有解方完全沒有方法那要在114年的3月完成遷廠恰恰就是現在"},{"start":4030.962,"end":4053.692,"text":"恰恰就是現在 各位都知道不斷的跳票 完全沒有解方所以呢 今天我們在這個地方討論核電廠研議的討論我們必須要問 安全 負責任 民意支持這三個規準 我們要如何來符合"},{"start":4054.492,"end":4080.689,"text":"所以今天很感慨因為大家都在新聞上矚目泰緬的地震所造成的災情以我們核三長來講它就是位在斷層帶我們都想要一個非核的家園因為那是對我們未來的子孫的承諾但是我們今天坐在這裡我們能夠承諾什麼我們能夠保證什麼"},{"start":4083.649,"end":4112.594,"text":"那我們過去已經見證了921地震對於我們的一個威脅所以能源的政策我們應當要以安全作為一個最高的原則那這也是我們《環境基本法》第23條最重要的一個意涵所以今天在這裡我們要替我們共聊的朋友萬里、龍門、恆春地區、蘭嶼的朋友著想"},{"start":4113.474,"end":4138.795,"text":"他們常年承擔著核電所帶來的風險跟壓力但是他們到底有沒有獲得對等應有的關注這些地方的居民都跟我們一樣都希望能夠在家鄉安心的生活而不是因為核電的存在核廢料的存在讓他們的地方發展受限人口流失產業凋零"},{"start":4140.276,"end":4159.265,"text":"所以在這裡呢我們還是要來呼籲大家在能源轉型的同時我們應該要確保當地的居民他有參與討論的權利而不是被迫接受我們的決策那在這個地方呢我們再一次來討論關於核電廠研議那請大家審慎一對謝謝"},{"start":4164.744,"end":4171.811,"text":"谢谢武力华委员的发言那我们接下来有请郭玉晴委员进行广泛讨论发言"},{"start":4181.488,"end":4203.61,"text":"主席好 各位立法院的同事剛剛其實我聽了很多位的提案說明徐宇甄委員也說要確保安全劉淑檳委員代表民眾黨也說要安全無虞甚至連我們的主席也說要安全無虞的狀況之下所以大家都知道嘛 安全其實是首要的條件"},{"start":4206.201,"end":4234.346,"text":"緬甸的瑞士規模8.2的地震等同是177顆的原子彈那這個強度是強過921那也有專家已經開始示警了因為印度板塊開始推擠所謂的歐亞板塊那像內推擠的一個狀況之下有可能在短時間之內就會造成所謂區域性的轉移影響到台灣西部的整個所有的地理位置也有可能發生大地震的可能"},{"start":4235.146,"end":4253.351,"text":"我想一直拿他國的核電研議的經驗來套用在完全不同地理環境的台灣不管地震天災等等不同的一個天然環境的條件我想這個部分直接拿國外的例子來套用是完全不確實的剛剛我們提到的是安全"},{"start":4256.252,"end":4284.844,"text":"第二個最重要的就是核廢料這一次的政治對抗的一個修法不僅僅是不尊重核安管制的一個作業也刻意迴避了所有外界在對於所謂的老舊核電廠的安全以及疑慮跟監管另外還有高放長值的設置條例也都沒有進展低放長值跟懸值的問題也還沒有突破就是核廢料到底要放在哪裡"},{"start":4286.769,"end":4311.349,"text":"每個縣市都願意自己的核廢料放在自己的縣市裡頭嗎當這些問題關鍵的問題沒有被好好的討論跟好好的來檢討結果就想要用修法我就想問難道透過法令的修法就能夠來解決確保核電的研議是安全無虞的嗎我們不能這麼不負責任"},{"start":4312.25,"end":4330.219,"text":"因為我們在強調核安的風險核廢料的處理的問題我們現在完全無視這方面的專業要把所有的難題丟給下一代來承擔嗎另外老舊核電的隱憂也非常的多"},{"start":4331.019,"end":4350.499,"text":"今年3月6號 核三廠的二號機發生了火警而在近年來 所有因為核電廠的設備逐漸老化 事故頻傳光是近年來 三大核電廠已經累積有53起的異常事件"},{"start":4351.32,"end":4367.576,"text":"那如果因為這樣還要再來縮短所謂研議的審核的時間跟年限從原本的5到15年民眾黨的版本只壓縮到剩下1到6個月縮短了90%到98%的時間這不叫不負責任 那什麼才叫不負責任"},{"start":4376.118,"end":4380.622,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員進行發言我們接下來有請張雅琳委員進行發言 謝謝"},{"start":4388.897,"end":4411.266,"text":"主席我們現場的委員還有現場關心在國會頻道上面關心我們這個議題的所有的台灣的公民朋友們今天站在這裡呢我並不是只是一個立法委員的身份來發言我更是以一位母親一位深知安全無法妥協的家長站在這裡發言當我們討論核電研議最重要的問題從來不是政治"},{"start":4417.068,"end":4431.233,"text":"而是安全是我們的孩子我們的家庭我們的爸爸媽媽我們的社區能不能夠在這片土地上安心的生長這是最重要的一個基本條件可是台灣的核電廠呢在數十年前的安全標"},{"start":4432.393,"end":4451.364,"text":"是在數十年前的安全標準下去建造的過去的國民黨在建設核電廠的思維是這樣子的他只求建設能幫助他們反攻大陸不求在台灣長居久安所以當年到底有沒有依據當時的安全標準來建設一直是被公民團體"},{"start":4452.845,"end":4478.296,"text":"一直是被許多專家學者所質疑的可是畢竟過去是國民黨統治國民黨統治的戒嚴時代民意根本難以參與監督再說這些標準與今日的國際核安要求有極大的差距我想跟大家說的是即便是一般的機設設備隨著時間的老化都需要更嚴格的檢測與維護更何況是牽涉到整個國家安全的核能設施呢"},{"start":4479.318,"end":4490.354,"text":"在修法之前,我們有辦法確保核電廠符合現行的國際安全標準嗎?在修法之前,我們有辦法解決核廢料處置的問題嗎?"},{"start":4492.335,"end":4517.962,"text":"在現有的草案之中翁小林委員的版本最短的只要執照屆滿就能夠提出嚴議申請更令人擔憂的是這樣的修法完全沒有負責任的安全評估卻可能為未來的核電嚴議與重啟而鋪路大家也看到國民黨在審查相關的總預算的時候呢用提案報復不配合的行政機關如果今天法一旦通過了"},{"start":4518.482,"end":4532.181,"text":"他們會不會用各種羞辱報復的手段讓行政機關受到壓力快速通過相關檢查呢在經過充分的討論之下讓老舊的核電機組可以繼續運轉甚至讓已經除役的核電廠來重啟"},{"start":4534.926,"end":4556.536,"text":"我更要問的是雖然國民黨口口聲聲說要以安全無疑但卻從不務實解決實際的問題喊口號的修法真的能確保我們的孩子在這片土地上安全成長嗎身為母親我的擔憂不是抽象的我們的孩子在學校裡在遊戲場裡無憂無慮地奔跑他們相信"},{"start":4557.176,"end":4577.704,"text":"大人會為他們做出最安全最負責任的決定但如果我們今天讓這個法案在缺乏安全缺乏民意支持缺乏負責任的解決方法的情況下通過的話未來一旦引發核災我們要如何向孩子交代謝謝張雅玲委員發言接下來有請吳佩奕委員進行發言謝謝"},{"start":4591.697,"end":4612.286,"text":"主席 現場的各位同仁還有在線上收看轉播的所有台灣的公民我想全台灣人都非常的關注今天我們在立法院所討論的由國民黨及民眾黨委員所提出要修改核管法因為這一次的修法倘若通過"},{"start":4618.632,"end":4636.462,"text":"將嚴重的影響到台灣未來的安全過去這麼多年來為什麼這麼多台灣人為什麼這麼多在核電廠周遭的民眾站出來要反對核電我們都支持國家的能源永續"},{"start":4637.623,"end":4656.84,"text":"但是剛剛我也很同意國民黨委員所說我們應當要討論的不是意識形態而是現實那麼我們的現實是什麼現實就是目前台灣截至目前為止我們沒有核廢料的最終處置場即便核一核二廠現在核廢料都還在燃料池當中"},{"start":4664.244,"end":4667.467,"text":"都還在燃藥池當中我們連乾性儲存廠都還非常的困難該不用說最終儲置廠今天國民黨民眾黨提出來這個提案的修反內容是什麼呢我跟各位國人報告就是我們現行法規有規範核電廠如果時間到齊了要申請換照原液的話必須要在五年之前"},{"start":4690.225,"end":4697.448,"text":"按照現行法規核一核二核三通通都已經不能再申請研議了但是今天這些委員所提案的就是要放水讓現在的核電廠核三即將要到期的核三能夠有機會再次提出研議這個在安全上會有什麼樣的危險首先我剛剛看了所有這些委員的版本"},{"start":4713.795,"end":4728.275,"text":"非常負責任啊到底你現在要放水放寬你是要運轉到期的多久之前要提出申請一個人的版本都沒有寫邱正俊的版本叫做請事前申請什麼叫事前申請啊"},{"start":4731.169,"end":4739.955,"text":"我們要講的是核電廠欸安全是可以這樣子忽略的嗎你們是這樣子對待我們國家審查核電廠的安全標準的嗎好然後再來你要延長最多可以延長幾年最多可以延長幾年你們剛剛講了一堆國外的版本大家通常都有提出年限但是今天國民黨這麼多人的版本很多都非常不負責任的連延長的期限都沒寫王航威的版本沒寫羅志祥的版本沒寫啊"},{"start":4761.869,"end":4765.032,"text":"所以咧你們修法只有這樣無限期的延長嗎無限期的延長嗎你們有把安全放在考量之中嗎這樣是負責任的修法嗎這些主席我們上次在詢答的時候就提出來了核廢料要如何處置安全的審查應該包括哪些評估再來大家說要考量現實要考量務實國民黨一再地砍我們給台電的補貼請問有沒有去評估過"},{"start":4790.549,"end":4798.392,"text":"接下來要重新做這些安全審查的評估包括要送到國際上去審查再來要做耐震補強這些工程包括評估包括補強的工程你們要重啟核三你們要重啟核電廠到底要花多少錢有沒有評估過通通都沒有評估的資料現在就要喊修法這是非常不負責任的這才是一個意識形態"},{"start":4815.538,"end":4823.306,"text":"台灣的現實考量就是我們目前沒有能力處置核廢料我們沒有核廢料最終處置場蓋一個核廢料最終處置場要蓋在哪邊你們有人提議嗎請問在哪一個縣市要花多少錢這些都沒有評估你就納消法去讓核酸繼續演繹天大的笑話再來台灣還有什麼現實一定要考量就是民主"},{"start":4839.341,"end":4858.577,"text":"對中國來講 民主是意識形態對台灣來講 民主就是現實嘛我們在講的都是很務實的事情啊你河山要研議 你有問過屏東人嗎?屏東人忍耐多久了?現在目前為止 河山廠裡面的燃料棒都還在燃料室裡面而且已經就要滿出來了你要再研議怎麼處理?這燃料棒移去哪裡?移到高雄嗎?秋市委員同意嗎?柯市委員同意嗎?"},{"start":4868.188,"end":4877.631,"text":"要移到哪裡 這就是現實考量嘛你們要這個核廢料的廚製廠找到哪一個縣市願意來設置嗎這個就是民主 這個就是現實你們要提這個修法之前不得不考量核電廠演繹在台灣的現實沒有安全 沒有民主我們堅決反對台灣的核電廠演繹"},{"start":4893.363,"end":4897.931,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員的發言接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員進行發言 謝謝謝主席"},{"start":4907.932,"end":4916.278,"text":"我在這邊真的要很語重心長的要提醒國中兩黨提案的委員政治不能凌駕在專業與安全之前我們不能穴足勢旅我們民眾的安全健康是唯一不能為了政治目的而修法關於核電演繹關於核電再運轉這個議題攸關民生對於核電廠附近的民眾生活安全乃至於全台的民眾的生命安全"},{"start":4936.434,"end":4939.858,"text":"跟健康都跟核電廠的安全維護息息相關我們在談核電再運轉在談研議這個議題之前本席認為要考量的一定是最現實的問題就是我們核廢料的階段處理目前在核一廠及核二廠的燃料池都已經滿足"},{"start":4955.456,"end":4961.561,"text":"那其中合一廠的乾式儲存廠從99年就要來興建但後續卻因為水保計畫的問題跟新北市政府陳送多年後來在107年開始台電提出溯源行政訴訟在112年台北高等行政法院判決台電勝訴新北市政府應該核定水保計畫在113年才完成"},{"start":4983.658,"end":4989.143,"text":"耗時高達11年這也顯示核廢料的處理跟地方的民意是無法取得共識光是室外的這個乾儲場就已經有難以興建的問題那這個高放射性的核廢料的中期暫時儲存場最終處置應該設在哪裡是必須我們必須要很謹慎思考以及面對的問題"},{"start":5007.921,"end":5036.433,"text":"而後續也必定要長時間的跟社會來進行妥善的溝通因此在沒有辦法提出妥善處理核廢料的這個前提之下不應該再增加核廢料的數量我們的民眾我們的鄉親也不會贊成這樣子倉促的這樣子的修法所以真的要再一次提醒國眾兩黨提案的委員我們不能罔顧民眾的權益我們不能犧牲全台人民的生命安全生命健康"},{"start":5038.055,"end":5048.459,"text":"在台灣這樣子的地理環境 處在太平洋火山地震帶本來就時常有地震的情形 近年來也更是頻繁的發生規模6以上的淺層地震在核電廠建築本身持續老舊的情況下 造成的安全疑慮也越來越大當初設置核電廠的時候 並沒有評估附近斷層的這些因素考量"},{"start":5061.303,"end":5064.165,"text":"合一合二陸續發生過反應爐的爐酸斷裂爐心側板裂紋等設備老化的這個問題如果真的要再運轉勢必要經過全盤的大修我們如何能夠確保安全再者"},{"start":5076.394,"end":5101.811,"text":"全世界只有台灣的核電廠燃料棒使用完畢之後還放在這個燃料池裡面滿儲而將使用過的燃料棒一直放在反應爐心裡面不取出造成核能安全的這些隱憂這也是跟後來這個後續乾式儲存廠的新建延宕中期暫時儲存以及最終儲置廠持續未能有進度有關那在持續的後"},{"start":5104.052,"end":5112.876,"text":"這些相關的處理沒有辦法取得共識沒有辦法跟地方有溝通的這個共識之前呢我們後續的這個核廢料儲存廠選址沒有辦法能夠得到民眾的這個支持沒有民意的支持我們不能讓核電再運轉我們必須要守護台灣的健康台灣人民的健康我們要守護我們台灣的安全"},{"start":5127.742,"end":5137.167,"text":"所以我要再次的提醒提案的國民黨委員民眾黨委員政治不能凌駕在安全與專業之前以上謝謝陳秀寶委員的發言接下來有請陳培宇委員進行發言"},{"start":5160.131,"end":5179.013,"text":"好 謝謝主席在剛剛開會之前我們收到了一個國民黨提出來的修正動議我要唸給大家聽因為我相信現在在看線上直播關心這個議題的朋友手上應該沒有這份資料這份資料修正動議提案人林佩祥基隆的立法委員"},{"start":5181.155,"end":5207.231,"text":"簽這個修正動議的附和的委員有黃建豪葉遠之廖偉祥劉許廷柯之恩委員我想請這些委員回應我你們在簽這個修正動議的時候你們所關心的到底是核廢料還是核安問題還是社會溝通你們都已經找到共識了呢你們跟你們選區的選民都說好了嗎我們來看一下他的修正動議是這樣寫的原本在第六條的寫法是說經營者"},{"start":5208.752,"end":5234.531,"text":"因于主管机关规定之期限内申请换发执照这句话所对应的意思是在相关的执法当中我来念给大家听执法所对应的是核子反应器设施运转执照申请审核办法第16条原来的写法是核子反应器设施运转执照有效期间累积达40年仍需继续运转者"},{"start":5235.631,"end":5254.703,"text":"經營者應該在執照有效期間屆滿前5年到15年填具核磁反應器設施運轉執照換照申請書可是在林沛翔委員你的修正動議版本裡面把剛剛主管機關應於規定之期限內這句話改成只要應就可以了"},{"start":5255.143,"end":5264.306,"text":"也就是應該申請換發執照也就是他認為有這個必要就可以應申請換發執照也就是如果國民黨今天應要強行表決通過這個修正動議就會把5到15年我剛剛所念這個執法的內容給拔掉了"},{"start":5270.948,"end":5294.489,"text":"也就是說過去你們現在的國民黨主席朱立倫過去的新北市長他所口口聲聲在意的核安核廢料社會共識的問題今天所有坐在現場的國民黨委員你們完全不用理會朱主席過去給你們的建議我還念給大家聽你們可能當時不認識當時的朱主席我也不認識但是我們來所有的資料都會留下記錄"},{"start":5296.011,"end":5316.324,"text":"2012年的朱立倫說只要我擔任市長一天就不會讓核四運轉沒有核安就沒有核能2013年的朱立倫說如果無法處理核廢料憑什麼使用核能有核安問題核四就不應該存在到了2015年的朱立倫繼續說非核家園是全國共識"},{"start":5317.785,"end":5332.041,"text":"甚至在2010年到2018年這麼長的時間他擔任新北市長他堅持不核發甘氏儲存廠執照最終導致核二廠提早停機除役"},{"start":5333.328,"end":5355.873,"text":"我想要請新北的葉元芝委員你今天沒有來但沒有關係我要告訴你曾經葉元芝有來謝謝我要提醒你你也簽了這一份修正動議剛剛所有的國民黨委員你們都簽了你們的黨主席在2010到2018年擔任新北市長所有提出的核安核廢料社會共識你們完全不在意"},{"start":5356.733,"end":5381.525,"text":"你們可以不用在意你們黨主席我也不在意但是我們在意的是社會共識跟溝通我們在意的是民意如果你們今天要說這個版本 應要強行通過請你們站出來面對全國人民你們如何處理核廢料 核安問題還有社會共識還是你們已經習慣了蠻橫通過所有你們想要通過的東西不用跟全國人民交代不用面對你們的民意也不用面對台灣人的下一代謝謝謝謝陳培鈺委員的發言"},{"start":5386.633,"end":5413.235,"text":"我們接下來有請謝榮介委員發言全國的好朋友大家早安"},{"start":5415.132,"end":5439.391,"text":"例如說味噢中味噢,不喝咖啡酒,喝茶也要吃一些芙蕾牛,安全是不可怕的,不安全就不可能有負擔,當然的啊!這郵訂房的課程,還在這裡講得那麼大大叫,要安全"},{"start":5441.69,"end":5447.894,"text":"老總統曾經說過,不排除婦人的可憐,再多使用婦人我們今天修法,就是迷霧中流萬一很緊急,沒有用婦人的時候要怎麼做?所以法律要先救援,不是今天立法,今天就使用婦人包括婦人的恩怨"},{"start":5469.415,"end":5485.704,"text":"要經過最起碼要有一千三百行的測試一千三十八行的漢堡醫生安全測試通過包括他的頭目 胸部 脊椎 腕鑽 弓弦 頂頂可以說是非常非常多"},{"start":5496.189,"end":5518.183,"text":"尤其我們的美國大人已經跟我們說了,不用煩惱,要給我們收聽我們看這個美國兄哥倒頂,民進黨就吃美國白痴了大汗今天美國大人已經一理財,財理商跟你說沒有問題,no problem做你安心,結果"},{"start":5521.332,"end":5543.07,"text":"你還在這裡說這麼多 安全 安全 再安全 今天如果不安全 婦人才啟動嗎民進黨撲到他的新主牌 說李鴻 李柏妮被婦人 今年五月就達成了可是我站一個做爸爸的立場 在這裡 我反而我的家純負擔一直加重下去"},{"start":5544.611,"end":5552.857,"text":"所以你為了這個新珠牌,今年五月已經達成了,達到目標,不用再讓我們假龍飛三年,中間一條白青藥,這是最大的一條錢。"},{"start":5558.795,"end":5585.619,"text":"所以如果法定可以求完,那麼阿伯高級的福田廠我們提出申請,不是提出申請就可以繼續運轉的要經過安全的設置,我們有原住民委員會,還有國際來監督我們有很多學者專家,隆重對安全提出保證沒有安全,當然沒有核能,沒有衝突啦"},{"start":5587.281,"end":5602.514,"text":"有人說歐明對這個婚姻的看法不一樣 我跟大家報告歐明目前對於這個婚姻的行善 他的轉世明前期白鳳龍比較新的 是有這樣可能 但是他現在準備"},{"start":5607.079,"end":5626.686,"text":"要靠著他 打敗後的婦人 是不是身為歷典現在在討論中 但風雄內 是傾向最好的定位是歷典所以後面的苦勢 我們要有理解所有的學者專家 也都針對這樣的理解你想想 他的打敗 比邵家俗還減了很多"},{"start":5631.087,"end":5634.872,"text":"一台LNG全六點九萬噸的駕駛進來 都要有二十四萬噸的坦白"},{"start":5638.581,"end":5665.461,"text":"所以從來我們沒有這樣收銷,我們國的企業會外銷到澳洲到美國到世界各國,只有這個唐水去求你就身分不符了所以造成我們家屬的用錢、生活負擔會增加造成我們台南這裡的小吃店這麼美好的美食,只有家屬企業、電子企業我告訴你,你們要來我們台南觀光,你有哪個客戶"},{"start":5666.622,"end":5675.49,"text":"所以要專貼性來考慮 想改修的電我們不用 最主要政府過程糾結太陽能一度要到五個 人家印度一度電到一個 台六個 日本兩個 香港的三個 三個都是太陽能的熱電 我們買一度差不多五個"},{"start":5688.142,"end":5696.189,"text":"這樣比較不會倒 當然會倒啊 最終會扶寧 如果安全今天想法就是說 將來扶寧在安全之下所以我們繼續推動他的演繹也好 心情也好但是若沒有這個法律 若沒有通過這裡"},{"start":5706.156,"end":5723.145,"text":"事實上,現在比較成長、比較要賺,我告訴你,擴大你會賺不到錢。那時候全台灣民營的危機,企業的危機、生存的危機、民生的危機、國家的危機,包括未來的AI、未來的軍工業、未來的電子炮、電競,都要吃電。"},{"start":5727.13,"end":5738.098,"text":"你是要用什麼來對抗中國大陸對我們的壓迫所以有時候最放鬆的、最冷靜的做媽媽的立場跟做爸爸的立場其實是一樣的我們都出自於愛啦謝謝謝榮介委員發言接下來有請張祺凱委員進行發言"},{"start":5761.55,"end":5785.569,"text":"民進黨正選擇跟世界的潮流對撞這個如果不是笨就是壞全世界都要緩回核能只有一個民進黨現在還抱著他的神主牌美國重啟核能了日本重啟核能了南韓重啟核能了全世界都要緩回核能"},{"start":5787.68,"end":5791.581,"text":"連美國老大哥AIT的處長古立仁都清楚的講核能 穩定 便宜他都可以幫台灣的忙全世界的先進國家都在用民進黨到底是怎樣是公還是派你們到底是你們抱著你們的神主牌你們現在講有安全 核廢料沒地方去"},{"start":5814.468,"end":5826.635,"text":"那全世界民主這麼先進的國家美國為什麼認為是安全的日本認為安全全世界民主進步的國家都認為是安全的人家核廢掉都可以處理結果台灣不行嗎這樣的民進黨政府早就下台讓會做的人來做嘛是賴清德不行還是今天民進黨站在這邊的立委"},{"start":5835.899,"end":5858.975,"text":"還在問以前喪屍機的問題所有先進國家都說是安全的都說核威大可以處理為什麼民進黨到今天還在講不能處理呢那為什麼美國有辦法處理日本有辦法處理第二個你們不要跟世界對撞的同時第二個你們不要站在漲電價這一邊"},{"start":5861.718,"end":5873.949,"text":"主席請維持秩序麻煩尊重發言者剛剛我們所有的發言我們都尊重謝謝你們在罵在野黨的立委說人家都沒有干擾你們為什麼要這樣吵呢第二個上個禮拜電價審議委會做了一個大家鬆了一口氣的這個決定他推翻了台電要漲價那要怎麼樣不要漲價可以降電價"},{"start":5891.189,"end":5916.684,"text":"用核能啊不只美國老大哥跟你講啊投資權賴清德總統聘請的國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人召集人是賴清德賴總統欸他說你只要用核電不只安全可以省下N個千億民進黨政府這幾年把核一廠核二廠核三廠的一號機停掉五月二十七號馬上最後的二號機也停掉了"},{"start":5921.633,"end":5933.301,"text":"一度電 核電一塊多 線上的電三塊多 每用核電就可以賺兩塊核一核二三加起來四百多一度電 一千億耶民進黨 你們多挖了一個一個洞的一千億出來 每一年要多一千億"},{"start":5945.063,"end":5973.175,"text":"那在漲電價你們要賠嗎我今天鄭重的呼籲這次好不容易電價穩定委員會擋下來了十月份如果在漲電價找民進黨今天派的立委要錢一年一千億你們怎麼跟人民交代另外你們是跟都市的民意對撞台灣最近這幾年的民意調查用核電的都佔多數啊我們還通過了公投欸以核養綠欸"},{"start":5975.578,"end":6002.395,"text":"所以從世界的潮流從電價不要漲還可以降到多數的這個名利我請民進黨政府趕快閒來熱馬今天在野黨是非常負責的提出了提案包括民眾黨本來你如果借期前要五年我們把它縮短為借期前一個月到六個月全世界先進國家都已經在研議啦日本"},{"start":6003.874,"end":6022.63,"text":"在112年的2月份就通過 允許核電廠延綠20年就從40延長到60年 美國現在通過的有96座 延綠最長的可以到80年我們現在核一核二三都是用40年啊美國可以延 日本可以延 為什麼台灣不行最重要最重要的 我請前面一起來檢視"},{"start":6029.229,"end":6053.6,"text":"如果電價再漲 請對著民進黨政府跟民進黨今天發言的立委他們為什麼讓我們電價一直漲 造成我們產業的負擔造成我們民生的負擔 請民進黨來負責任最後我做一個總結 今天法案過了主動檢查還是在民進黨執掌的手上啊要去檢查有安全 要不要提出申請是民進黨的政府要做這件事欸"},{"start":6054.864,"end":6067.248,"text":"所以民進黨不要汙名化今天的修法請你們跟人民站在一起跟降電價站在一起跟世界潮流站在一起不要那麼壞不要那麼笨謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員發言我們接下來有請葉元之委員進行發言"},{"start":6084.485,"end":6106.058,"text":"我剛剛聽了很多民進黨委員的發言我不知道民進黨委員是不是有搞錯我們今天修法的條文今天不是在討論說合二合三是不是直接延役今天是在討論說要給一個彈性就是說之後如果真的評估之後覺得可以延役的話讓他不會因為法規的限制而無法延役"},{"start":6106.758,"end":6125.35,"text":"但是最後能不能研議成功台電也要提出申請啊行政院也要合可啊社會也要有共識啊也必須要確保核能安全跟核廢料的處理啊所以我不知道剛剛罵了半天到底是在罵什麼啦那我就講幾個民進黨政務官自己講的話"},{"start":6126.772,"end":6147.751,"text":"郭志輝,經濟部長郭志輝,這民進黨的政務官啊他說新核能和傳統核能都要秉持核安、核廢料跟社會共識如果可以的話,他也不排斥啊國發貴主委劉敬欽,說核能是低碳的能源能不能變成綠能,要理性的從產業來看"},{"start":6151.755,"end":6172.044,"text":"鼓勵員在跟韓國瑜院長會面的時候除了關心我們的國防之外也非常關心台灣能不能穩定供電還有穩定的核能發展所以其實大家都很關注這個議題嘛那今天只是在討論要不要讓資格鬆綁而已啊"},{"start":6173.157,"end":6196.389,"text":"那至於說民進黨立委關心的核廢料那當然核廢料要提出處理的方式才能研議啊當然核安要確保啊這個我們通通都支持啊當時新北市長朱立倫在新北市他說的原話是什麼他說沒有核安沒有核電沒有核廢料的處理沒有核電對啊有什麼錯嗎"},{"start":6198.106,"end":6218.735,"text":"所以如果今天即便是我們修法通過了核二核三要研議還是要處理核安跟核廢的問題嘛所以這沒有衝突好嗎反倒是我覺得民進黨要回應社會的期待是說到底我們台灣能不能夠維持穩定的供電我們現在政府定的目標是2030綠能要達到30%"},{"start":6222.898,"end":6228.532,"text":"但是蔡英文總統她在過去八年上從畢路下黃泉啊"},{"start":6230.18,"end":6257.772,"text":"發展光電發展綠電大概綠電只增加5%左右那現在根據很多科學研究顯示啊氫能不知道什麼時候可以發展地熱台灣地熱也不夠所以未來如果要靠光電要靠風力發電要到2030年可以到綠電30%我覺得大家都是非常質疑的啦另外如果綠能沒有辦法到30%的話那我們現在還是要火力全開嗎"},{"start":6259.332,"end":6281.2,"text":"火力全開的結果就是很難達到低碳很難達到2050年的淨零碳排電價也會持續攀高所以在大家對能源政策有這麼大的疑慮之下現在只是讓申請核電的條件鬆綁保持一個彈性"},{"start":6282.04,"end":6307.136,"text":"如果說 民進黨可以確保供電無虞綠電真的可以到30%在2030年的時候可以提供大家低電價 低成本然後對環境沒有污染不會影響到人類 人民健康的電幹嘛要用 幹嘛要用核電 幹嘛要研議所以我希望 大家務實的討論這個問題啦希望民進黨立委可以跟你的政務官一樣都是理性啦 而不是一堆口水 謝謝"},{"start":6310.579,"end":6313.041,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員的發言接下來有請劉書斌委員進行發言"},{"start":6328.871,"end":6354.919,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天討論的沒有錯是核能設施這個安全的問題但是我們在討論核安問題的時候最重要的是要針對整體的能源來討論那在這個情況之下整體問題討論我們現在核能能源呢有包括的是化石性能源 再生能源 還有核能那這個情況之下呢尤其是我們遇到一個趨勢是在淨零碳排"},{"start":6355.859,"end":6362.003,"text":"那淨零碳排當中我們已經在我們氣候邊界意義法都已經說明了是要在2050年的時候達到跟全世界趨勢是一樣的那大家就要想想看在淨零碳排這個情況到底是我們最近長久以來的氣候邊界的風災水災的風險跟災害的損失跟我們目前到現在已經有核能廠的這個情況之下"},{"start":6381.354,"end":6403.459,"text":"他的核災跟風險整算的比例要做一個最重要的考量才對好那這個情況我們更重要是一個完整的核能政策他必須考慮到的是要有能夠付得起的還要是安全供應的第三個還要是他能夠是永續的那永續包括是什麼無污染的要低碳的甚至說碳中和的然後再就是所謂的"},{"start":6405.879,"end":6418.397,"text":"能夠在其他災害的這個環境的災害的部分呢要去減少好那在這個情況之下呢我們就可以看到的是目前我們的能源供應的部分是二台"},{"start":6419.52,"end":6442.239,"text":"我們的中央研究院已經說出來了我們目前的台灣整個發電是2800億度的發電那未來到2050年的時候是要到5000億的發電那這種狀況之下的時候所造成的這樣的結果你還在將近快要一倍的這樣情況那目前我們看到的上個禮拜的時候"},{"start":6443.18,"end":6467.348,"text":"台電只說的是未來呢是要在以每年到2030年的時候2.8的百分比在成長但是到2050年的時候怎麼辦呢所以在我們遇到這個情況之下的時候我們更要討論到我們去年在和在GemWatch在氣候變遷大會當中所做出來的一個報告是說在64個國家評比當中我們的排碳的這個績效的部分是在排名60是倒數的遇到這麼大的問題的時候我們沒有辦法去面對那"},{"start":6472.412,"end":6484.726,"text":"是不是政府應該好好去處理更重要的是環境基本法當中沒有錯是非核家園非核家園放進去的但是民進黨作為一個執政黨你非核家園當中的這些有關於永久儲存場的這個問題"},{"start":6488.05,"end":6500.918,"text":"只是我推給在野黨現在呢你不是應該自己去想辦法去做藍綠的所有的問題而且現在就算不見得合適其他不再見得合適沒有處理但是最重要的是這是處理長還是要處理啊執政黨請拿出解決問題的能力而且好好跟我們面對淨零碳白的這樣的一個壓力謝謝謝謝劉書斌委員的發言我們接下來有請柯志恩委員進行發言"},{"start":6521.4,"end":6531.803,"text":"等一下我把這個先移開謝謝我現在真的只能嘆一口氣這個議題當然從我第九屆來當立委的時候就已經開始來討論然後不管是藍綠或是白大家各有各的立場我們的專委已經開了公聽會大家可以聽到的不同的學者專家不管在做如何的一個承諾不管在做任何世界的一個趨勢顯然我們的裂痕還是存在"},{"start":6549.989,"end":6563.568,"text":"我今天站在這個地方我真的要問一下我們坐在對面的核安會你們的角色你們的責任在哪裡不管是低階核廢料或是高階核廢料我們按照行政院非核小組討論的一個結果"},{"start":6565.45,"end":6590.456,"text":"就是要先透過中期儲存場來做處理我們要求台電要在小組會議當中提出中期選址的方案報告這個是一個事實但是呢非核小組到現在呢從來沒有再召開過會議你們可以問問河安會我問一下河安會是不是你們到現在為止都沒有發函請行政院再召開第七次的小組會議"},{"start":6592.08,"end":6612.282,"text":"四年過去了說不開就是不開現在是行政院在消極擺爛呢還敢說你們沒有處理有沒有在處理核廢的問題你放任我們藍綠白的立委每個人都認為自己提出來是最專業的結果最專業的核安會還有我們行政院的非核小組你們到底角色在哪裡"},{"start":6613.323,"end":6641.164,"text":"有关于这个核飞药的问题有关于中期储存场的问题不是就是要让政府找专业人来告诉我们吗然后呢我们的专业小组再怎么样你放任我们从头到尾一直在这边吵吵到第二轮发言第三轮发言还是不会有结果所以说呢拿出一点核含味该有的该发函请行政院找专业小组来就该发函不要告诉我们到四年过去了什么都没有做这才是一个事实"},{"start":6642.225,"end":6662.385,"text":"而且呢我必须要说如果我们核安会真的有尬词疑点的话说实在的这些所谓的年限等等问题在第16条在这个所谓的申请审核办法当中也就是主管机关你们只要同意经过专业只要你们同意了自己内部研议修改就可以了"},{"start":6662.785,"end":6684.309,"text":"你放任我們拿著現在這個法規在這個地方是不需要修過立法院你們當然有最專業的你們會考量我們的安全你會考量我們所有大家所討論的這些安全上的意義你們就應該用專業的角度給予我們大家最大的一個建議怎麼可能坐在那個地方一群人坐在那個地方放任我們在各自來說自己的一個論點這個部分我說實在的三輪四輪"},{"start":6687.35,"end":6701.711,"text":"到最后结果没有从第九届到现在都已经没有结果了未来的结果是什么我觉得你如果认为真的是专业可能不行的话就直接告知不要放任我们的这地方继续浪费我们大的时间最后我要特别提到"},{"start":6702.352,"end":6717.604,"text":"每个人都要诉诸最大的名义我还是要提醒2018年16号公投案对于你说要废除电业法第95条全部停止在114年全部停止所谓的核能电厂对不起5895560人是认为不应该而401万的人中间差了188万什么叫做最大的名义世界在运转"},{"start":6730.134,"end":6757.51,"text":"时代在往前走所以说呢每个人对于和已经有不同的一个见解但是呢我们完全同意完全需要站在和安的角度完全站在安全的角度我现在就恳请和安会发函给行政院非核小组请他告诉我们一个最后的决断的结果不行就不行就大胆的告诉大家行就告诉我们你们结果到底在哪里不要放任我们再继续我告诉你到第十九届还是没有办法得出一个结果啦谢谢"},{"start":6759.968,"end":6762.782,"text":"謝謝柯子的委員發言接下來有請黃建豪委員進行發言謝謝"},{"start":6772.759,"end":6799.471,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我們今天討論的是核子反應器設施管理辦法的第六條那本席有提所謂修正動議那今天提這個修正動議提這個修法的版本最主要的目的是提供台灣的能源多一種選項而已今天並不是要討論說核四要不要重啟核三要不要研議核一核二怎麼樣今天討論的是我們這一條我們要不要放寬所謂申請的年限因為在原條文裡面是說經營者要主管期關規定的期限內"},{"start":6801.932,"end":6825.797,"text":"申請換發執照但是我們眼見這個主管機關規定的期限內我們合一合二合三合四等等的期限已經要到期了所以我們只是修說因申請我個人提出來版本是修因申請換發執照就提供一個彈性申請換發執照的空間我不是說今天馬上就要讓他申請換發執照而是說未來有一天如果社會有共識如果執政黨覺得"},{"start":6827.017,"end":6852.2,"text":"核安沒問題了之後我們總是要有一個法令讓它能夠重啟吧那你今天如果把這個定時說是要在主管機關規定的期限內定時之後那以後要重啟是沒有機會啦所以這是第一個部分那第二個到底核電安不安全我想依據國際原子能總數統計到今年2025年3月為止全世界目前還有416座核反應爐其中"},{"start":6853.041,"end":6870.476,"text":"超過40年以上的190座 佔比超過45.7%50年以上的有44座 佔比達到10.6%那裡面也不乏許多先進國家 科技強國我想要問的是 今天我們台灣是一個怎麼樣有黑科技的地方嗎"},{"start":6871.377,"end":6898.163,"text":"世界各國都能夠處理核廢料都能夠啟用核電的地方那為什麼台灣就沒辦法還是我們有比核能更好更安全更強的發電模式可以取代核能發電這樣的技術看起來目前是沒有的那很多人在談說核廢料怎麼處理那我問的是說此時此刻台灣有八成使用火力發電的時候怎麼沒有人問說請問一下碳氧化物 氮氧化物 硫氧化物怎麼處理"},{"start":6898.803,"end":6919.548,"text":"他沒有處理啊他就排出來排到空氣中怎麼處理難道大家多買一些空氣清淨機嗎還是大家多跑一點馬拉松多吸一點廢氣進去都沒有人處理你明天討論這個問題但是大家一直糾結在何非要怎麼處理何非要怎麼處理我想世界各國先進國家都有提供很多方式了我想法國以法國為例啊我在這個公開資訊我想原始人總統提供相關的資料"},{"start":6920.228,"end":6942.433,"text":"核廢料他們經過再處理技術之後有96%的鈾和布它可以被回收利用製成新的核燃料持續提供電力我想其他先進國家這幾年下來已經努力地發展核廢料回收核廢料再利用的技術那我們是不是要繼續活在2011年活在2011年那個時期"},{"start":6944.813,"end":6970.858,"text":"活在20年前10年前對核能理解還是應該進到2025年了因為剛剛很多委員也提到說2011年馬英九講什麼2016年朱立倫講什麼拜託一下那都10幾20年前的事情了現在是2025年應該有新的科技應該有新的方式可以面對核能技術所以我拜託大家我們提的修法是針對換發執照把它放寬要不要啟用我們的確可以討論但是我覺得至少要給核能一條活路以上 謝謝"},{"start":6972.976,"end":6977.821,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員發言待會有請汪小林委員發言接著我們還有羅廷維委員發言謝謝"},{"start":6993.465,"end":7020.786,"text":"今天談核電廠研議條例的法案修法我必須要講台灣的能源到目前為止有96%都是仰賴進口我們台灣需要能源自主不管是從國安的考量或是從社會安全國民健康的考量都必須要能夠有穩定的能源自主的條件"},{"start":7021.667,"end":7038.835,"text":"到底我們台灣的核安標準夠不夠嚴謹我們的核電廠是不是真的有安全有危險之餘這個問核安會最清楚啊我們台灣的核安會從之前叫原子能委員會到現在核安會"},{"start":7040.685,"end":7062.174,"text":"這幾十年來他們難道沒有認真負責盡職的去看好我們的核電廠嗎我們的核電廠是出了什麼大問題嗎如果說真的有出了什麼問題我告訴各位民進黨政府已經執政今天是已經第九年了核電廠真的有問題為什麼不提早把核電廠就關掉民進黨的委員啊無知無視欠缺科學知識"},{"start":7071.158,"end":7095.643,"text":"也欠缺民主素雅他們不了解現在的核電的這個科學已經發展到什麼程度了他們的思想觀念仍然只停留在三四十年前說核電廠危險不安全你們不是也在這片土地上面生活了三四十年有不安全嗎"},{"start":7097.844,"end":7117.943,"text":"反倒是在民進黨現在推動的非核家園非核政策底下台灣的老百姓得肺腺癌的比例已經高於所有癌症的第一名我們多少的年輕小孩有呼吸道疾病"},{"start":7119.643,"end":7133.933,"text":"這比例非常非常之高為什麼會有這樣的情況不就是你民進黨推動的這個非核家園搞到現在就是永碳政策高碳政策一大堆PM2.5的數值它的這個比例非常高是你們讓台灣人失去健康"},{"start":7146.176,"end":7172.507,"text":"讓大家這個得肺腺癌的危險比例增高今天邀請全國的民眾都要記清楚這一群反健康反科學反民主的民進黨委員的臉孔是他們讓我們的國人得到肺腺癌讓他們我們的小孩得到這個呼吸道的傳染病"},{"start":7175.011,"end":7194.327,"text":"这群没有知识反科学反民主不顾国人健康的民进党委员请大家真的要好好记住他们的脸孔我们今天走的是一个世界符合世界潮流世界趋势"},{"start":7195.58,"end":7221.236,"text":"全世界的國家現在都重返核能看看日本韓國美國歐盟的國家大家是不是都是提高核電的比例不要再說核電廠不安全問問台電吧問問經濟部問問核安會我們的台電我們的核電廠到底安不安全這不是你們這一群民進黨委員說不安全就不安全的"},{"start":7223.168,"end":7228.432,"text":"好 以上謝謝謝謝翁曉琳委員發言接著有請蘿婷可不可以請這個發言不要做這種人身攻擊什麼叫民進黨讓台灣人得肺腺癌你有任何的根據嗎你是醫生嗎怎麼可以做這樣的指控呢"},{"start":7239.901,"end":7244.725,"text":"我想每一位委員的發言我們都尊重前面每一位委員的發言我們也都沒有打擾"},{"start":7267.452,"end":7282.222,"text":"前面的委員也都有各種發言我想我們尊重發言的委員請尊重主席 謝謝我們接下來有請羅體委委員進行發言 謝謝主席還是沒有處理不好意思主席你還是沒有處理喔"},{"start":7286.86,"end":7312.594,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我想剛剛大家都在討論我也必須講一句話我們剛剛也有其他的委員我沒有要針對但是就事實來討論也有其他的委員在說在二三十年前國民黨興建了這一個核能發電是以反攻大陸為基礎有沒有安全的可能性這樣子也沒有事實也是在潑髒水的一個情況之下沒有任何的科學依據來定調"},{"start":7314.355,"end":7340.27,"text":"我想在這個時機點我們希望能夠好好的來討論核能安不安全 核能要不要研議我們先講結論剛剛已經有許多的委員都在說了今天我們只是賦予了彈性我也曾經在這邊問過主管機關主管機關很清楚的也回答第一 當我們今天修法以後是不能強制去使用"},{"start":7341.09,"end":7359.622,"text":"而是要透過台電還要選擇要不要去申請展延再來河安會還要再去評估能不能安全在這樣子的前提之下今天國民黨並不是要去強制不安全或者是有疑慮我們強制使用"},{"start":7360.422,"end":7374.734,"text":"所以我們回歸理性再來討論今天就很簡單賦予彈性國民黨就是萬惡嗎最後不也是要交給台電不也是要交給核安會去做相關的評估嗎再者我們不是很希望"},{"start":7375.515,"end":7390.289,"text":"台積電能夠持續的在台灣穩定的擴廠增加嗎而台積電有相關的一些新聞指出在所有的廠區裡面就台灣來說它的電價是非常高的"},{"start":7391.03,"end":7419.028,"text":"我們要發展這樣子的高AI科技我們甚至想要邀請國際的AI科技大廠來到台灣半導體產業帶來的電力需要快速的成長目前的能源能夠補足嗎所以我們更希望何安衛如何看待我國能源轉型中的一個角色我們是否能夠如美國、法國、日本等國在安全無虞的情況之下審慎的去延長核電廠的使用年限"},{"start":7420.309,"end":7433.017,"text":"剛剛我們也看到有女性的委員作為母親我相信大家都是為了下一代為了孩子但是我們男性的委員我們也是為了下一代為了孩子啊"},{"start":7433.973,"end":7450.98,"text":"我來自台中有人說沒有討論沒有安全我們要問問大家在台中火力發電廠的情況之下在所謂的在增加了天然氣機組結果我們的火力發電竟然燃煤機組不會"},{"start":7452.681,"end":7472.443,"text":"停止不會廢除而是備而不用在這樣子的情況之下有問過台中人嗎有讓台中人來決定嗎我們台中人享受這些空污的時候我們能夠為自己發聲嗎所以今天我們站在這裡作為台中的立法委員拜託如果討論我們的核廢料"},{"start":7474.025,"end":7495.771,"text":"要怎麼處理我絕對支持但是也拜託你幫我們討論台中的空汙該如何處置我們該如何幫我們台中人的健康安全來做第一審慎思考這也是應該列入一起討論我想每個人都要安全但是每個人都要健康那今天台中人的健康放在哪裡我希望大家一起來討論謝謝"},{"start":7497.438,"end":7521.257,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷惠委員的發言我們今天都這個剛剛我們已經看到了我們也充分發言了我們的這個討論核管法從第九屆到現在包含這個會期應該說上一個會期在7月10號我們也巡達完畢所以我想我們就進入第二輪的時間那第二輪的時間呢我們就希望控制在一分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7524.754,"end":7537.507,"text":"主席 主席第二輪的發言時間本來就會比第一輪更短沒有什麼沒有 本來這是我們剛剛有跟這個議事人員都提過了我們有 比較短三分鐘你可以兩分五十九秒兩分五十九秒也是比較短我想根據我們的議事規則第三期主席默受發言"},{"start":7545.715,"end":7558.561,"text":"主席不讓我們自由的發言保持如你阻止立法委員進行立法委員的職責主席沒收立法委員的職責我想我們到最後的一段還要討論什麼剛剛那麼多委員在造謠我剛剛建議你們說過關於第九屆就已經到現在的討論剛才也有委員提出要請求我們討論主席"},{"start":7571.207,"end":7573.429,"text":"首先我還是要再重申第一點"},{"start":7591.202,"end":7599.49,"text":"請尊重主席第二點我們尊重每一位委員的發言第三請尊重我們的議事規則根據議事規則第30-1條我們的廣泛發言各位委員的發言是由主席來決定時間長度但是我們相信這個議題也是非常重要的"},{"start":7609.58,"end":7631.513,"text":"那我們剛才也有說明從第九屆開始這個議題就已經進行討論那我們在113年的7月10號也已經詢答完畢剛才也有多位委員進行提案說明同時待會我們也會逐條的時候還有時間讓各位發言所以我想我們現在進行第二輪的發言那我想時間一分鐘"},{"start":7633.951,"end":7634.532,"text":"主席主席我剛剛是說兩分五十九秒"},{"start":7653.396,"end":7678.24,"text":"第一位發言範圍委員謝謝剛剛實在是謠言太多了就是我們澄清謠言跑斷腿那我想第一個電力的部分本來應該要找就是我們台電的董事長講但是我想就是說行政院副院長鄭麗君還有公開講過已經考慮了AI半導體等發展2030年供電滿足需求就是能源轉型的2.0會逐步達到2050的淨零轉型不變"},{"start":7682.021,"end":7700.075,"text":"如果看馬英九跟蔡總統時代的你就會看到誰的淨零做的比較多另外台電也強調考慮了AI半導體資料中心等台灣不缺電我們需要做的是加強電網的韌性這部分台電都有公開發言請大家不要再造謠"},{"start":7700.856,"end":7719.862,"text":"那第二個剛剛是張其凱委員吧他居然講說不要污衊國民黨委員只是一個彈性請大家看一下林佩祥委員今天才丟出來的那個臨時動議他裡面講的是什麼前項運轉執照有效期限最長為40年期滿需繼續運轉應申請換發執照"},{"start":7725.123,"end":7742.327,"text":"他連給因是誰主體應該就是台電吧連給台電評估後不要申請的機會都沒有這哪叫彈性張其開委員坐在這邊連現場的資料也不看一下就說別人污衊國民黨委員不知道他現在是國民黨身份還是哪個黨身份"},{"start":7744.748,"end":7761.426,"text":"另外謝龍介剛剛說最便宜的電不用請領域級委員教一下謝龍介連怎麼算電都不知道簡直是以法國為例為了反映盧演繹十年國民黨委員都提法國的例子你知道他演繹十年花了多少錢"},{"start":7762.266,"end":7781.54,"text":"需要投入高達一千億歐元換算成台幣是三兆五千多億台幣而且我想法國不像我們台灣台電在2011年就重新探勘發現河山場等恆春斷城是第一類活動斷城"},{"start":7782.541,"end":7790.865,"text":"最後張祺凱說DPP選擇跟世界趨勢對撞請你查一下什麼叫世界趨勢吧核電根本不是全球發展趨勢從2004年到2023年全球啟用102座機組其中關掉的機組遠高於"},{"start":7802.29,"end":7830.409,"text":"事實上如果扣掉中國的話是關掉超過50個機組那你如果再看看全球這些正在興建中的俄羅斯是重要的出口經銷商如果你把俄羅斯那個算進去基本上這是共產國家在做的一門生意中國就在裡面興建了百分之五十幾你如果扣過中國的話事實上其他的國家包含俄羅斯正在印度在某些國家興建中的"},{"start":7832.19,"end":7852.734,"text":"關掉五十幾座我想這個部分證明核電根本就不是全球發展趨勢如果剛剛大家講的這麼厲害的話為什麼關掉的是負的那請你再扣掉俄羅斯他出口在別的國家跟中國境內的那裡面超過一半的全球新建的核電基轉謝謝謝謝范雲委員的第二輪發言我們接下來有請林一錦召委進行發言"},{"start":7868.186,"end":7880.39,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想再強調現階段我們談核電營業或重啟成本確實相當相當的龐大"},{"start":7882.116,"end":7902.49,"text":"那核電廠運轉越久產生的核廢就越多這也是主委曾經在詢答這個回答的那核廢產生的核廢越多我們就需要更多的資金去處理核廢料那這都不可避免一定是納入發電的成本當中嘛所以這個成本那麼龐大怎麼會說核電是一個相對省錢的能源那我們來談到安全"},{"start":7912.336,"end":7934.283,"text":"最近最大的國際新聞就是緬甸泰國的強震震災是全人類的痛更是我們身處斷層帶台灣人的集體創傷那現在的河山場又位於恆春的斷層帶所以我想這個事情我們不能"},{"start":7935.424,"end":7962.233,"text":"避而不見我們不能不正視這個問題所以我想面臨到這樣的一個安全問題大家為什麼都一直說核能相對安全這我很不解那我們現在如果說我們來研究這個所謂的法案國民黨提出的修正法案我很認真來看我覺得目前你們提的這個提案內容其實某個程度也算根本是一疊廢紙怎麼說"},{"start":7963.914,"end":7990.461,"text":"因為縣刑法並沒有禁止核電廠的研議你們來看第六條縣刑條文核電廠期滿了有需要繼續運轉者必須申請換發執照相關換發規定存用前條第一項好我們就來看前條本法的第五條第一項當中很明確的提到如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要確保公眾的健康安全"},{"start":7991.281,"end":8009.332,"text":"那我們現行法跟國民黨今天要修的法有什麼不同?有啦!就在哪裡?有個不同是說國民黨就是要放寬核安的管制標準讓沒有在其縣內申請研議甚至廚藝的工作早就要進行的老舊核電廠要讓它繼續運轉"},{"start":8011.753,"end":8026.858,"text":"所以不要再用什麼狗屁話術來說國民黨同時有在兼顧河安國民黨不是意圖讓河安管制更寬鬆而你們的修法就是跟現行法白板都一樣了啦所以話要講回來"},{"start":8029.076,"end":8043.895,"text":"我覺得 如果國民黨認為今天的修法有那麼大的公義性那 我也還是納悶了我們今天看今天的這個修法的提案版本本委員會喔 除了葛如軍 張偉有提案以外"},{"start":8044.756,"end":8072.015,"text":"其他的教委委會沒有一個人有提案從上一次柯志珍招委排案到現在有一段時間那如果說我們教委委會覺得這個法案很重要具有公義性的話那為什麼沒有人提案所以我想我們大家在教委也當同是一年多了我們都很清楚這就是一個政治掛帥沒有意義沒有實質利益的法案所以我還是要向招委建議像這種"},{"start":8074.542,"end":8089.511,"text":"高政治性然後低民生然後而且是政治怪獸的法案我想我們今天其實可以不要繼續討論這個法案才對謝謝林益錦召委的發言我們接下來有請吳麗華委員進行發言"},{"start":8103.122,"end":8129.727,"text":"謝謝主席剛才聽到國民黨多位的一個發言包括民眾黨都會提到說為了經濟如何如何世界潮流如何如何然後說不是壞就是笨那我在這個地方聽了很難過因為對我們來講到底是杞人憂天還是愚者無所慮"},{"start":8131.431,"end":8144.938,"text":"我們知道的一句話是智者多慮今天不論往哪裡走我們看到今天的修法不論是想要把執照延長或者是強制的申請來換證我們都要務實的來面對核廢料的處置"},{"start":8150.92,"end":8172.241,"text":"現在高階核廢料最終處置廠也沒有法源第一階核廢料最終處置廠大家找不到拒絕公投所以最起碼我們從過去所談的關於放射性廢棄物中期的暫時儲存設置它的具體規劃的內容你要先面對"},{"start":8173.802,"end":8191.494,"text":"關於低放射性廢棄物最終處置長設施長指的設置條例你也是要先面對 要先拿出來所以在這個地方我其實是特別想要談有一種風險叫做一次都不能承受的風險"},{"start":8193.257,"end":8219.352,"text":"我也想到一首歌就是叫做我來刀一割刀但是它不是卡加布列島我很擔心我不要我來刀一割刀叫做軍事無人島我們是一個地震頻繁的一個島國我都不曉得說大家有那麼大的信心認為未來的十年二十年一百年"},{"start":8220.475,"end":8243.39,"text":"我們沒有辦法承受這樣的一個風險我們要的是永續的家園我們要的其他的能源我們都還找得到辦法但是現在就想問核能我們有辦法處理嗎希望大家一起來做智者多慮 謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員的發言我們接下來有請郭育琴委員進行發言"},{"start":8251.837,"end":8251.858,"text":"蠔油"},{"start":8259.09,"end":8282.021,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先先對剛剛這個國民黨委員說這個肺腺癌都是民進黨的問題這個部分我提出嚴正的一個抗議不要什麼事情都怪民進黨不要連你們家馬桶不通你也怪民進黨你前一天拉肚子上廁所沒衛生紙也怪民進黨不要什麼事情都往這個執政黨上面頭上栽贓"},{"start":8285.442,"end":8307.369,"text":"講到2022年其實美國的核能佔比也已經下降到18.2%這個發電量較前一年下降的0.9%這是我們最新得到的一個訊息當全世界的核能佔比都在普遍下降那麼剛剛其實藍白委員他們在說的日本要重啟他們只說了一半"},{"start":8308.109,"end":8317.617,"text":"他們沒有說的是日本同步的大幅增加了天然氣燃煤和石油進口而且增加了大量的太陽能發電"},{"start":8319.835,"end":8338.931,"text":"這個關於核電的重啟或者是研議不是只有核電監管機關說了算它還必須跟當地所有的居民縣市政府要有一致的共識才能夠處理這樣子的問題台灣跟日本一樣處於所謂的地震帶那也是應該要首要的來考量"},{"start":8340.208,"end":8356.939,"text":"再來,我想提到一點,關於所謂研議的部分台電有沒有足夠的業務費來評估核電是否能夠重建任何一個國家的核電廠要研議一定要經過非常久的時間,是數年的時間"},{"start":8358.2,"end":8373.088,"text":"而且有工程跟評估的研究要投入大量的經費跟預算我以2014年台電出估當時他們說如果核電光是2014年要研議的話必須要花費580億"},{"start":8375.789,"end":8400.022,"text":"而現在11年的時間過去了所有的原物料難道都不會上漲嗎所有的研議的成本都不會上漲嗎我們的台電有沒有足夠的業務費來處理這一塊這是最現實的問題更遑論剛剛提到的核廢料到底是要堆在你們家嗎要堆在你們的縣市嗎要堆在基隆嗎"},{"start":8401.222,"end":8424.959,"text":"現在我們的核廢料的問題處理了嗎所有的東西沒有處理之前安全是最重要的一個考量沒有安全就沒有研議的問題講得這麼清楚難道要把所有的責任再丟給我們的下一代去承擔嗎不要像巨嬰式的修法以為修了法就可以來改變這樣子的一個狀況這是非常不負責任的我再講一次"},{"start":8428.671,"end":8451.842,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員的發言接下來有請張雅玲委員進行發言謝謝主席我想我先來針對幾件事情來做個澄清好了因為剛剛有羅廷偉委員來跟我提到就是說我剛剛講說我們好像說沒有以剛剛"},{"start":8453.957,"end":8476.469,"text":"剛剛他講說我們好像在有點污衊了國民黨我想要具體再講一次我剛剛講的話我講的是說數十年前台灣的核電廠是在以當年的安全標準大概就是1970年代那時候就是國民黨統治這句話有錯嗎那時候他們在建設核電廠的思維是只求建設國民黨想要反攻大陸這件事情有錯嗎沒錯吧所有人的書都是這樣讀的嗎"},{"start":8478.65,"end":8487.803,"text":"我覺得這個就莫怪羅廷偉老師投書給他啦所以可能當時書可能讀得不夠多可能要再讀一下我們到底有沒有反攻大陸"},{"start":8489.452,"end":8513.033,"text":"還是現在國民黨已經忘記要反攻大陸了啦再來第二個部分就是說翁小玲說我們不要反科學我們要有民主過去這30年來我們住在台灣有安全有危險嗎我必須要再講我們住在台灣很危險為什麼我們有中共同路人在這邊挖台積電的資料在這邊挖一些農業部的一些被處理的資料我們超級危險的好嗎"},{"start":8513.934,"end":8530.925,"text":"再來第三個部分就是關於剛剛張祺凱委員一直很關心因為他常常就講就是電價我們好像沒有核能我們就是電價一定怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣之類的我想要講一件事情今天電價可以犧牲所有人的安全嗎"},{"start":8533.228,"end":8560.475,"text":"目前的修法我們還是沒有務實的回到安全以及核廢料的處置來做深入的討論那為什麼就要來修這些相關研議或是重啟的一個法案呢為什麼要就對這些法案來開綠燈呢電價上漲固然是我們需要面對的課題但我們應該還是要尋求安全永續的一個能源轉型方案而不是選擇一條可能會讓我們付出更多代價的道路"},{"start":8561.135,"end":8588.013,"text":"核災發生的時候犧牲的是我們的每一個人我想我也要再重新講一下我們在現在此時此刻的10點多左右我剛查了一下核能的佔比大概只有3%再生能源已經到了21.5%而且大家一直不停的在講說國外重啟 國外重啟那我跟大家一個報告2024年世界核能產業現況報告的統計過去的核電跟現在的核電成本相比已經從原本的123"},{"start":8590.094,"end":8615.872,"text":"每千度哦每千度123美元上升到了182美元上升了49%相反的風力和發太陽能的成本已經下降了六成到八成因此國民黨為什麼一直不把這件事情揭露出來呢把事實揭露嘛講科學我們就來論科學啊所以如果可能要成為評價的電力來源其實是不切實際的哦"},{"start":8617.765,"end":8629.63,"text":"重要的重點應該是我們要來強化我們的電網韌性加強儲物能那剛剛葉仁芝委員也有說啊那我們政府就應該好好來把這些安全處理好啊欸 是誰砍了那麼多錢啊是誰啊 國民黨葉仁芝忘記了嗎就像忘記審查機密預算的時候要關直播一樣嗎"},{"start":8638.633,"end":8661.138,"text":"最後我想我還是要呼籲一下今天這個絕對是一個政治型的法案因為這是朱立倫主席才是的一個法案整個教養委員會裡面除了葛如君委員其他都沒有提出來我們不要讓政治凌駕民生凌駕兒童的安全 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的發言接下來有請吳佩奕委員進行發言"},{"start":8670.302,"end":8671.336,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":8673.622,"end":8700.128,"text":"各位我們本會的同仁還有在線上收看轉播的公民今天是我們在教委員會由國民黨及民眾黨的委員分別提出了核管法的修法的版本那我們在進行在逐條討論之前的大體的詢答那這是我的第二次發言剛剛前面呢在第一次發言之後我聽到很多國民黨委員的言論其中"},{"start":8702.108,"end":8715.074,"text":"翁曉林委員因為他有指出太嚴重的造謠必須要來澄清那我覺得比較麻煩的是因為翁曉林委員他造謠完就跑掉了他剛剛說民進黨讓台灣人得肺腺癌這是一個莫大的控訴因為大家知道燃煤中火是誰蓋的是蔣經國蓋的中火是蔣經國蓋的"},{"start":8729.915,"end":8744.02,"text":"是歐小維林委員是在指控蔣經國先生讓台灣人得肺腺癌嗎但他站了完就跑了留下國民黨的委員在現場我相信他們也不知道如何來回應今天我要再次的重申核電演藝這個議題的討論"},{"start":8748.161,"end":8766.97,"text":"並不是在追求更先進的技術因為現實來說我們現有的核電廠就是數十年的老舊核電廠而當年在興建的時候是不公開不透明也缺乏了民主的機制甚至當年是沒有環評的"},{"start":8768.09,"end":8771.233,"text":"所以我要再次重申當我們在討論核電研議的時候我們在討論的不是先進新型的核電技術而是數十年的老舊核電廠要繼續使用的問題那這當中有什麼樣的問題有安全有核廢料的處置剛剛前面張祺凱委員說日本美國都可以處理台灣怎麼不可以處理"},{"start":8792.273,"end":8796.175,"text":"日本美國請問目前有高階核廢料處置廠嗎請問有嗎是沒有的所以我們剛剛一再討論的是你最終處置廠如果你要繼續研議核廢料勢必會增加請問提案要放寬有彈性的這些委員們你們的主張應該要放在哪裡呢第三點"},{"start":8817.043,"end":8834.61,"text":"剛剛謝龍介委員說擔心子孫的負擔現在唯一有最終處置場的芬蘭他這一個處置場接下來要運轉的要使用的會花費的就是十萬年的時間才可以慢慢的來處置這些核廢料所以如果你們要講到子孫的負擔的話我們要"},{"start":8837.671,"end":8840.512,"text":"繼續倘若你們要讓這個核管法放寬讓老舊核電廠繼續使用讓台灣的核電核廢料繼續增加的話我們未來要給我們的子孫增加多少年去消耗消化這些核廢料的負擔請務必要說明清楚那再來最後我要講的是"},{"start":8858.757,"end":8866.159,"text":"安全很重要這我想我也肯定這是今天不同黨派的委員即便有些立委是認為主張要延誼要延長放寬這個條文但是大家都認為安全一定是最重要的但是安全不是能夠直接照抄其他國家每一個國家要考量的人口密集度位置地震帶地質等等的評估都是不同的"},{"start":8884.284,"end":8891.708,"text":"所以每一個國家的安全是需要不同的專業評估而剛剛很多人也說這個條文就算通過之後也不是要求台電要立刻的來重啟要繼續讓運轉能夠延續但是我們想問的是那為什麼要在這個時間點在社會沒有共識幾次的委員會討論也都沒有共識的前提下要強行的進入逐條討論要強行的去送出這個版本呢"},{"start":8913.98,"end":8918.101,"text":"剛剛討論到大家擔心的供電的問題假如這個條文通過他要經過的安全的審查專業的審查這是還需要數年的時間也根本跟剛剛講的要能夠及時的來應對供電的問題時間上根本就對不上所以我們只能非常的憂心非常的憂心的擔憂為什麼因為過去一年的立法院我們看到多次都用政治來凌駕專業"},{"start":8942.571,"end":8957.823,"text":"用舉手表決來凌駕我們各個部會的專業來凌駕法律的專業甚至立法院可以用舉手表決的方式提出違憲的法案今天如果我們相信了他們說的我們只是給你一個彈性來通過這個放寬的法律未來要不要放寬還是由政府來評估但是 常任通過了下次他們再提議 再提案"},{"start":8967.69,"end":8973.574,"text":"說我要求你明年就要來這個評估研議繼續運轉我們真的相當相當的擔心未來立法院有可能用舉手表決的方式凌駕了專業而犧牲了安全所以我們要再次的重申沒有辦法處理核廢料沒有安全我們沒有辦法來讓核電要研議的這個條文通過 謝謝"},{"start":8994.144,"end":8997.707,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員的發言接下來有請陳秀寶委員進行發言謝謝主席我在這邊要再次的強調除了電價生命健康更重要其他國家可以但是你要看台灣的條件是不是相同台灣地小人稠核電的風險我們承擔不起"},{"start":9022.466,"end":9044.758,"text":"其他國家怎麼處理核廢料台灣不一定能夠複製台灣真的很難面對這個問題因為我們得不到民意的支持沒有縣市願意核廢料的儲放設施建置在自己的地方我不願意我的鄉親不願意我的縣市不願意那麼國民黨的提案委員以及剛剛罵得很大聲很兇的民眾黨委員你告訴我"},{"start":9048.3,"end":9060.517,"text":"你們的縣市願意接受核廢料儲放設施在你的地方請你告訴我你們願意 請你自告奮勇的告訴我你們的縣市可以處理核廢料接受核廢料的這些儲放設施"},{"start":9062.247,"end":9090.51,"text":"合一場的室外乾式儲存場屢遭新北市政府一直沒有核可延宕了將近11年後來是因為台電的官司勝訴了才核准並且在113年的10月15日來取得水保計畫完工證明才開始執行熱測室作業現在正在辦理運轉執照的安全審查並且要安全符合"},{"start":9091.371,"end":9104.328,"text":"放射性物料管理法的相關法規之後才會同意來核發運轉執照台電在114年的1月動工來興建核二廠的室外乾除設施"},{"start":9106.257,"end":9108.678,"text":"我要再次強調我們核一場核二場的燃料池已經接近滿儲核三場的燃料池儲存空間也是非常有限運轉越久核廢料越多沒有辦法處理核廢料我們就沒有繼續使用核電的條件"},{"start":9125.928,"end":9142.719,"text":"不要再跟我說其他國家可以台灣的條件跟其他國家並不相同我們這麼小的一個面積的島國我們相關核廢料沒有地方儲存萬一核電廠有安全的疑慮的時候我們也沒有地方可以疏散"},{"start":9144.022,"end":9163.757,"text":"到底誰能夠為這些相關的這些安全負責你們提出修改相關的規定相關的法令但是你們有辦法負責嗎不要把這些錯都丟在民進黨的身上這是我們長期以來一直都需要一起面對的"},{"start":9164.878,"end":9180.193,"text":"今天為了政治目的而修改這樣子的來做修法像我剛剛講的這就是血主勢旅不能因為你們政治目的凌駕在安全以及健康之前來犧牲我們民眾的生命財產安全"},{"start":9183.556,"end":9195.205,"text":"也要確保我們有辦法為我們的後代為我們的子子孫孫負責一時的政治目的所犧牲的是難以想像難以承擔的風險謝謝"},{"start":9210.626,"end":9230.755,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛來自台中的羅廷維委員有點名指出關於台中人的權益我來幫大家恢復一下記憶台中火力發電廠是從國民黨威權時期1986年開始興建甚至在馬英九總統還有胡志強市長的任內達到燃煤量"},{"start":9231.195,"end":9242.847,"text":"空污排放的歷史高峰而在中火燃煤還有空污量最高峰的時刻當時的台中民選立法委員就是現在的盧秀燕媽媽市長而她當時對於國民黨的行為一聲不吭這是歷史的記憶那到底是誰在撿煤撿污呢"},{"start":9252.697,"end":9272.276,"text":"蔡英文總統從2016上任以來積極透過電力系統的安排調度減少中火的燃煤用量還有污染排放跟2014年相比目前中火排放的空污已經大幅減少70%燃煤使用量也已經減少未來當然還會繼續努力我再強調一次未來當然還會繼續努力"},{"start":9276.78,"end":9296.096,"text":"講了這麼多我想要請台中的立法委員你們絕對不要忘了這個記憶剛剛所有的國民黨委員還有民眾黨委員他們一致的說核安的問題核廢的問題你們也很關心那如果你們除了政治學問高深如果你們科普知識也很厲害請你們來教教我"},{"start":9296.917,"end":9325.375,"text":"目前這一次提案的委員你們的選區位於所謂30公里撤離圈的委員目前有王宏威你的選區在台北市中山區、松山區羅志強委員你的選區在台北市大安區李燕秀委員你的選區在台北市內湖區、南港區徐巧欣委員你的選區在台北市信義區、松山區賴思寶委員你的選區在台北市文山區、中正區洪孟楷委員你的選區在新北市石門區、三芝區、淡水區、八里區"},{"start":9326.155,"end":9339.801,"text":"林口區、泰山區張志倫委員您的選區在新北市中和區林德福委員您的選區在新北市永和區中和區羅明才委員您的選區在新北市新店區、深耕區石碇區、坪林區、烏來區"},{"start":9342.202,"end":9358.23,"text":"廖先祥委員您的選區在金山區萬里區汐止區平溪區瑞芳區雙溪區貢寮區還有黃國昌委員您的服務處在新北市板橋區請問以上我所點名的這些委員提案的委員你們可以教教我們教教選民"},{"start":9359.651,"end":9370.183,"text":"如果發生核災他們要疏散到哪裡也就是我剛提出來的30公里撤離圈如果都沒有辦法回答這個問題我要向各位報告核地場半徑30公里內的居民應該撤離而台灣核三廠30公里內就有6萬人核二廠30公里內居住550萬人"},{"start":9378.212,"end":9394.36,"text":"如果真的發生核災相關的問題地方政府早就承認沒有能力撤離安置所以如果你們真的這麼厲害你們代表你們可以跟民意溝通請你們教教我核安的問題應該要如何處理我都還沒有時間談到核廢料因為主席只給我們兩分鐘的時間 謝謝好 謝謝陳培昀委員的發言我想接下來請謝龍介委員發言"},{"start":9418.891,"end":9438.669,"text":"君主一言一定,台灣老人這麼多,實在說是不宜蒙主揮霍,這麼可惡、這麼高官、這麼優秀,有什麼對我們的國家這麼沒信心呢?這個安全的問題,有這麼困擾嗎?"},{"start":9442.076,"end":9465.509,"text":"大家是嚴肅來面對因為這不單是臨環的問題這卡在國家危機 國家安全的問題日本大陸的太陽能在發電有人說現在熱能已經新噴降到四五十趴是啊 但是台灣的熱能升到四五十趴八幾趴了啦別人兩顆我 你的太陽能要到四五顆"},{"start":9472.139,"end":9490.676,"text":"你沒有掛你的鑰匙,對不對?所以這是關於的問題,可以改善那麼日本的天然氣,全民收留的時候,因為日本跟台灣一個非常雄殊的就是海德型的國家,沒有天然的資源"},{"start":9492.307,"end":9509.314,"text":"所以佔美調對安倍三一以後聽之所謂的婦人發展到專門啟動為什麼因為日本的出竅啊 他的母約啊 對plus變成minus非常非常嚴重 國家沒辦法當機負擔這種成本所以婦人 有人說不是最扮演的"},{"start":9516.567,"end":9530.574,"text":"但是我告訴你,他不只是醉半夜,現在是醉醉半夜的,因為你如果只是看他短假,有可能他跟頭痛閉起來差不多,但是頭痛是付出你的生命,付出你的健康做代價,不能不斷這樣,因為你沒有給他託款,託費給算了,"},{"start":9533.556,"end":9537.159,"text":"如果把他拖垮了 你看我看 整個人拖白了 還把他解散了婦人可以說是非常非常珍貴 非常非常有本意可以說是讓我們整個人類對這個地球 付出這個人"},{"start":9550.189,"end":9576.057,"text":"婦人不是天娥貝來的婦人存在這個地球數百萬年啊所以啊 咱只要人類用科技 科學 神用婦人可以幫助大家婦人可以提搬婦人可以創造恢復的工藝圈她還可以創造人類幸福的生活當然 安全不可忽略"},{"start":9577.25,"end":9598.042,"text":"要怎麼安全?那些專家、學者、老人這麼多,不聽他們的意見,他們有領略改革,讓他們政敵打壓,他們還要派社工委,點點不出聲,我認為這是台灣的損失。所以台灣人,不以蒙主揮霍,我們有很多很好的科學家,我們有很好的工程管理,"},{"start":9599.022,"end":9610.527,"text":"別人做得到,我們也做得到,不能一直跟台灣倒退路,我覺得大家正常、理性來面對這個問題,該安全就安全,該贏就贏,不能為了要賺太多高級的利潤,一個政黨、一個派出生意二十多間公司,煮飯後十萬變成一億八千萬,四年多而已,錢都退回去。"},{"start":9623.012,"end":9628.193,"text":"要補台電的 一千 兩千 三千繼續補說我們一千億補他 他就不會給我們企業 別再拖下去了我們過去補他三百一千億 他給我們企業企四百各位鄉親 你們聽得懂嗎一百一千億再補他 哇 好事 他反正會給你企業為什麼會企業 不可以怪台電的 因為靈魂政策偏差我們現在不夠是米霧丟霧 把這個放進去 並不是今天要處理啊"},{"start":9651.118,"end":9667.051,"text":"老總統說的 必要的時候要我告訴你 台灣市民都害了 兩個這麼緊張萬一啟動 危險的時候我告訴你 你如果沒有福利就對了你就真的參加不到普通社會了謝謝謝榮介委員的發言 接下來有請張祺凱委員進行發言"},{"start":9687.072,"end":9706.267,"text":"現在我相信有很多民眾都在看現場的這個直播他們關心的一定是希望今天的會議不管是哪一黨的立法委員跟我們的政府讓我們的電價不要再往上漲了而且有機會往下降"},{"start":9707.884,"end":9728.861,"text":"所以包括民進黨的立法委員請你們對你們的民眾要有所交代我現在發現了民進黨現在是跟民意在對撞我剛才已經強調了全世界先進國家都在用核廢料他們認為可以處理安全也沒有問題結果民進黨現在說我們台灣不安全"},{"start":9735.421,"end":9757.11,"text":"我們的核電已經用了40年 核一核三很安全核能扮演台灣經濟發展的火車頭穩定 價格低又安全全世界發生過核災的日本福島核災非常嚴重美國發生過山梨島 台灣沒有發生過核災"},{"start":9759.056,"end":9778.527,"text":"美國跟日本現在都重啟核電了結果民進黨現在在跟他講美國日本我們不要學我們自己是不安全的我們有這麼多專家學者台灣是個寶島啊現在民進黨說台灣是同飛什麼地方有這麼多專家而且現在的法律條文是在確認安全之後才會啟動嘛"},{"start":9786.141,"end":9813.528,"text":"所以我請 我講現在是一線之間我請民進黨包括今天發言的立法委員你們能夠以昌生為念以昌生為念你看 光是失業以後要漲價那個對人民的民生跟產業的衝擊就有多大好不容易 電價審議委員會做了動長的這個決定若民進黨政府今天繼續杯葛繼續拖延"},{"start":9815.37,"end":9841.388,"text":"那十月份再賞店價那就請民進黨政府跟民進黨的立委來負責任另外我想提一個點你們剛剛一直在講核廢料怎麼處理我請你們思考一個問題你們現在是執政黨耶現在的核一廠也有核廢料啊核二廠也有核廢料啊核三廠也有核廢料啊你們民進黨的講法是什麼現在現有的核廢料都不用處理嗎"},{"start":9844.073,"end":9869.288,"text":"科技在進步啊第一個是科技要進步第二個對啊啊你們怎麼樣那現在有核匯量你們就不處理了嗎所有人都要去面對這個問題嘛是不是你們現在這個問題有辦法解決嗎而且我要提醒我們的核匯量的處理長久以來我們核後端的這個基金我們每用一度電"},{"start":9870.629,"end":9894.046,"text":"我們的錢都有放到基金裡面去耶將近四千億的錢耶我們還設立了核安會我們的專家學者那麼多長久以來我們的安全沒問題為什麼現在到了民進黨的嘴巴裡面變成台灣式不安全的最後我做個結論請民進黨看一下最近的民調最近這兩三年"},{"start":9895.427,"end":9912.56,"text":"多數的民意都是贊成要用核電的連我們的公投都已經通過以核養綠事實上最近的民調也看得出來連民進黨多數的民眾很多民眾也是支持要用綠電的同時也要用核電"},{"start":9915.009,"end":9932.534,"text":"民進黨政府現在你們不只跟世界潮流在對撞你們跟民意在對撞的同時你們現在也跟多數的你們要不要回去看一下你們的民調你們多數的民進黨職責真的希望你們再繼續杯葛不用核電嗎請慎思給台灣的電價有下降的這個機會讓我們產業能夠好好的發展謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員的發言接下來請劉書斌委員進行發言謝謝"},{"start":9957.028,"end":9980.054,"text":"在場的各位官員主席還有我們的同仁媒體朋友大家好我現在必須再跟大家確認一下就是民眾黨的關於核安的議題上面所採取的是我們對於再生能源是一直希望它提高的是支持的但是我們是在"},{"start":9981.516,"end":10008.616,"text":"要求的是過渡時期也就是在綠能再生能源它沒有辦法達到原來的目標還有儲能的狀況沒有辦法給它上去的時候我們希望能夠透過修法來把核能的部分給予它一個可以有效的再去因應這個不足的這一部分所以它是一個核能是一個過渡時期的一個能源"},{"start":10009.977,"end":10019.544,"text":"我們要知道從理性科學的角度來看事情的時候就可以知道各種能源都有它的優缺點再生能源當中它是環保的"},{"start":10030.253,"end":10042.646,"text":"沒有碳但是呢它有個最大的情況是我們在台灣是地小人頭的情況它不可能的無限制放大這個這個設置所有再生能源更重要的是它是間歇性的能源除非你的"},{"start":10043.672,"end":10070.692,"text":"除了設施要做好的情況下才能夠達到這樣的情況那因此在這種情況之下呢我們就會針對核能在未來的情況下尤其中研院已經說到了2050年的時候會有到5000億度的這樣的情況比現在的台電所預估的2.8%的這樣成長率都還要高的時候你怎麼能夠不去因應到這些部分但是如果再能夠好的話絕對是沒有問題那更重要的是在於"},{"start":10072.082,"end":10091.727,"text":"核能的部分也要提到說的剛才有提到的核安的這個問題只要日本的條件比我們嚴峻但是日本的情況上我們也要求是台灣也能跟日本一樣在維持著最高的國際的安全核安的標準之下的時候我們能夠在這個前提之下我們來去做核能的研議那這個當然一定要經過國際科學國際原子能委員會這邊的一個通過"},{"start":10096.368,"end":10103.634,"text":"所以前提是這個情況下就不要再去做其他的一個這就前提下都能夠落實更重要的是不要忘記非核家園是民進黨的政策所以即使剛才說的有人提到的在各個縣市當中是議員的責任在台清北市在屏東都沒有問題但是也是立法委員的責任可是不要政府是要解決問題的"},{"start":10121.129,"end":10150.255,"text":"因此民進黨政府請你就算是現在這個法不研議這個法核電廠不研議但是你原來的非核家園的那個三法核安三法你還是必須要把它通過必須好好面對這個問題不要推卸給別的責任那這是最重要的一部分好那就是說請大家注意到民眾黨的要求是在作為核能的在安全無虞的這個情況之下才會開放它是一個過渡性的一個能源好謝謝"},{"start":10153.891,"end":10181.347,"text":"謝謝劉書斌委員的發言那我想如同我們剛剛所說從立法院第九屆會期開始方才我們就有說明有非常多的討論關於這個議題那本案呢也已經在113年的7月10號巡達完畢那我們今天呢也進行廣泛的討論那我想現在開始逐條審查"},{"start":10188.126,"end":10215.843,"text":"因為後面有柯智恩委員黃建豪委員跟翁小林委員都已經不發言了所以我們第二輪的發言就到這邊剛剛好多謠言我們現在開始逐條審查我們要發言主席還要發言我們這邊有收到提案建議本案停止討論進付表決是否有當進請公決誰提案誰的提案"},{"start":10216.824,"end":10224.607,"text":"提案人 林佩祥 謝龍介 羅庭瑋 葛如君都沒有收到 我們提散會程序問題 這個位階更高 程序問題 散會動議"},{"start":10232.602,"end":10260.862,"text":"這個我們民進黨這邊依據立法院議事規則第26條提出散會動議我再次提醒我們現在已經是第11屆的立法院了那提案人是林怡瑾 范雲 陳秀寶 張雅玲 吳佩奕 吳麗華幾位委員好那依據我們的議事規則我們先處理散會動議"},{"start":10262.932,"end":10284.046,"text":"那我們進行表決那我們請醫事人員清點人數 清查在場出席委員人數主席 不好意思 我要求要點名表決 我們向律師交代麻煩請提案"},{"start":10306.476,"end":10309.838,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":10314.147,"end":10318.189,"text":"你永遠在第一集戰局有出一刀?對啊,你來看,我實在有玩意"},{"start":10350.307,"end":10359.574,"text":"好 這場14位那剛才有這個林益謹委員提案針對我們的這個他是宣告"},{"start":10366.678,"end":10390.845,"text":"你們的提案是不是好要求點名表決那提案人是林一景委員范雲委員陳秀寶委員張雅玲委員吳佩奕委員郭育晴委員那我們就好贊成提案表決好那我們就唱名贊成"},{"start":10395.725,"end":10421.097,"text":"他提議要點名表決要先表決贊成要點名表決好那我想因為這個提案要求點名表決我想我們先進行舉手表決好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕好怕"},{"start":10431.11,"end":10452.342,"text":"我們來看看誰害怕被點名喔好 贊成者七位好 反對者請舉手反對點名表決的有 反對的有你又不是教文委員 教文啊教文的基本的議事規則搞不清楚喔反對者 反對者七位"},{"start":10457.703,"end":10478.164,"text":"好 可否同署由主席決定我們現在可否同署嗎"},{"start":10482.09,"end":10484.932,"text":"主席要公正 表明表決"},{"start":10510.825,"end":10520.049,"text":"業人畢竟是負責畫面延伸作善 觀眾必是負責有主席猜卷你不用這麼那個啦美齡OK嗎?那就點名嘛 那就點名表決不是負責的吧就點名表決 表決 表決 表決"},{"start":10539.417,"end":10540.538,"text":"每個人拿麥克風在那邊喊喔"},{"start":10562.067,"end":10579.443,"text":"謝謝 因為手上的麥克風是做竹條使用的請大家斟酌使用 謝謝好 那我們現在進行這個停止討論的動議散會動議我們現在接下來處理散會動議 謝謝我們現在處理散會動議那我們用舉手表決 那請清查請清點在場人數"},{"start":10590.131,"end":10597.301,"text":"好 14位 剛才已經清點過了那我們贊成這個 贊會動議者請舉手 贊成者請舉手好 贊成者7位 反對者請舉手"},{"start":10611.113,"end":10634.629,"text":"好 也是七位 可否同訴經主席裁決不通過 散會動議不通過好 那我們一樣處理建議本案停止討論 經負表決是否有當那我們欽點在場人數十四位 反對者請舉手請問是這個應該先贊成者請舉手 贊成者請舉手這個是停止逐條討論的逐條討論嗎 你要說明一下喔"},{"start":10637.791,"end":10648.684,"text":"停止廣泛討論 謝謝所以 謝謝好 贊成者請舉手 停止廣泛討論七位 贊成者七位好 反對者請舉手反對者七位"},{"start":10656.223,"end":10671.437,"text":"好那一樣可否同署金主席裁決通過本案停止討論那我們進行逐條審查核子反應器設施管制法修正草案相關修正草案期議事人員繼續宣讀條文並進行討論與協商討論時如果新增修正動議那因為我們已經過了臨時提案時間有修正動議請議事人員一併宣讀謝謝"},{"start":10680.779,"end":10698.49,"text":"委員王宏威等19人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案、委員邱振興等22人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案、委員蘇清泉等26人拟據核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案"},{"start":10701.462,"end":10725.211,"text":"委員翁小玲等19人拟據核子環境區設施管制法第6條條文修正草案民眾黨黨團拟據核子環境區設施管制法第6條條文修正草案委員徐欣等20人拟據核子環境區設施管制法部分條文修正草案委員葛瓦君等18人拟據核子環境區管制法第6條條文修正草案委員徐宇珍等22人"},{"start":10725.931,"end":10738.359,"text":"沒有啦,不是要對就舒服,直接要遭遇到這樣喔,對啊,坐下去說,不然為了這樣就死了啦今天謝榮介我也是看到我要去洗手間,死屁耶開會沒有這樣啦坐下去好好說啦"},{"start":10755.295,"end":10778.739,"text":"第一次來趙文貴搞不清楚沒有關係那邊是要給趙文貴坐著你坐著好好講啊廣告實施併合之下現在市政府廣告兩個月內政府提到現在第五項修訂委第一項併入區低密度人口測試第一年者計劃一年級計劃主管機關由主管機關"},{"start":10783.348,"end":10784.429,"text":"請與線性條文相同"},{"start":10798.63,"end":10808.737,"text":"好謝謝各位委員那我們今天逐條討論事務合資反應器設施管制法等10案條次對照表大家都拿到那我們先討論第6條那請發言"},{"start":10817.405,"end":10823.475,"text":"好 提案 請羅廷瑋委員接下來林怡瑾召委范雲委員 謝謝"},{"start":10826.948,"end":10845.696,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉在我很想要繼續討論這樣子的一個內容所以我選擇要繼續開會因為我想就像剛剛有人所提到的政治不應該凌駕專業所以我覺得我要尊重專業的情況之下我希望呢先請何安惠先幫我說明一下今天我們修這個法"},{"start":10846.616,"end":10867.571,"text":"修完以後請問一下是強制你一定要核能繼續運轉嗎第一個問題第二個問題我想問一下核安會可不可以請核安會就您的專業直接跟我們分享一下現階段你們自己內部評估是不是會造成有核災甚至對於現在的核能非常不安全你們有評估過嗎"},{"start":10868.632,"end":10886.81,"text":"你們要跟社會大眾交代一下也跟我們所有的委員告知一下讓我們能夠在逐條審查的時候更加的尊重專業但是前提要專業的先講出你們的評估我想有這樣子的兩者前提才可以後續逐條審查的時候更加聚焦所以請何安惠回答一下 謝謝"},{"start":10893.263,"end":10904.232,"text":"我們先按照順序請林益錦召委發言然後范雲陳秀寶委員然後郭益勤委員跟張阿玲委員 謝謝"},{"start":10907.294,"end":10920.899,"text":"我想我們今天討論核能演繹的事情待會還是要請台電來說明一下目前台灣的用電狀況跟核能重啟"},{"start":10924.381,"end":10941.019,"text":"的看法那當然我想很重要的是我剛剛在大體討論的時候也有提到就是說如果說你國民黨你現在這個版本第六條我們看起來其實核電廠期滿有需要"},{"start":10942.04,"end":10965.837,"text":"那個現行條文是核電廠期滿有需要繼續運轉者必須申請換發執照那相關的換發的規定準用條例前條 前條第一項那可是前條就是本法的第五條的第一項就有很明確的規範如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要確保公眾的健康跟安全"},{"start":10967.039,"end":10976.399,"text":"所以現行法 肉這樣看其實它並沒有禁止核電廠研議所以我覺得目前的現行法"},{"start":10978.429,"end":11003.74,"text":"原則上沒有禁止的話那其實也沒有太多修法的必要那好 那當然啦所以後來講回來的是那我們再回到核電廠國民黨堅持要研議因為他們沒有在這個所謂的範圍內去申請研議那申請研議我覺得剛剛討論那麼多我覺得還是有三大原則啦一個就是核能安全"},{"start":11004.68,"end":11015.679,"text":"那很多委員 特別張其凱委員有一直提到他覺得核能很安全台南的核能 台灣的核能很安全那我們就是只怕一萬不怕萬一"},{"start":11018.415,"end":11044.353,"text":"我們核能安全那日本的這個福島核災利利債務離我們台灣那麼近導致很多漁獲我們都不能日本進口漁獲都不能再繼續用好那現在核能現在我們核三廠要演繹的是核三廠那核三廠是在有通過這個斷層帶所以這個在斷層帶的核能廠你能說它是安全的嗎"},{"start":11045.314,"end":11060.37,"text":"那你說現在它是安全那未來能持續安全嗎那你看緬甸的地震那台灣的地震基本上現在氣象學者地震專家有在說我們台灣有可能在兩個禮拜後"},{"start":11061.952,"end":11085.297,"text":"你有可能會整個板塊一塊又連動台灣這有一些預報所以台灣的地震的頻繁基本上是非常的可預期的所以在一個斷層帶的核能廠它的安全性我覺得這個大家要來做思考在這個不安全的斷層帶上面的核能廠有研議之必要嗎再來一個最重要的關鍵還是核廢料"},{"start":11087.037,"end":11108.766,"text":"核廢料怎麼處置是推動的過程根本沒有辦法嘛你高階核廢的最終處置場面臨選址根本沒有法源好 那我們光做地質調查就遭到抗爭的窘境那你低階核廢料的最終處置場地方政府拒絕協助處理公投啊所以也沒有辦法繼續推動啊"},{"start":11110.347,"end":11128.151,"text":"所以核廢料沒有人要在你家啦啊不然核廢料你又敢說敢再說再加一那我們這件事情就可以往這邊開始來處理啊是不是所以這個社會共識就變得很重要這是第三大原則沒有這三個原則核能安全核廢料的處置問題還有社會共識我們為什麼要來討論演繹的事情呢以上"},{"start":11134.311,"end":11149.042,"text":"請范雲委員謝謝 謝謝林錦瑋剛剛那個藍百緯一直說就是本黨委員講的不專業那事實上我想是他們自己閱讀的太少"},{"start":11149.622,"end":11164.223,"text":"不知道是不是只有意識形態然後不尊重專業所以我待會想請台電回應剛剛我所講的就是所謂台灣的核電如果重啟後符合歐盟規定的綠能標準嗎"},{"start":11166.266,"end":11194.224,"text":"那有哪些我們的出口企業它的用電必須要符合這個綠能的標準所以我想這個部分就是要請台電回應然後我也想請何安慧回應那個日本在剛剛一直有人講到日本法國的例子日本在福島核災後那個福井縣的敦賀核電廠是不是因為它的正下方存在活斷層"},{"start":11195.865,"end":11223.794,"text":"就是說不符合安全標準之後到現在一直都停機那這個部分也請何安慧你們做的是安全的部分那另外呢我想也請何安慧講一下你們在2011年當時就是說就是設廠的時候是不是並不確定並不知道有恆春斷層跟三角斷層那你們在"},{"start":11225.935,"end":11240.561,"text":"2011年的報告是不是發現就是以核三廠為例下面就是有恆春斷層那目前核三廠的設計是不是完全沒有辦法處理這個斷層就是如果活躍的問題"},{"start":11244.098,"end":11258.455,"text":"就是說是不是也能夠告訴我們如果是你們或者是台電有評估一下說那到底要花多少錢才能解決這樣的問題因為剛剛一直在說核電很便宜完全並沒有處理這個安全評估"},{"start":11260.049,"end":11266.751,"text":"跟就是安全評估之後如果要能夠保障不管是屏東人因為我們高雄要選市長的委員也在這裡他事實上這個風險的範圍是不只是在屏東那一旦發生什麼任何的事情的話那誰可以負責那到底要花多少錢才能做到就是安全評估上符合國際標準的"},{"start":11284.417,"end":11313.07,"text":"我剛剛所講的所謂的綠電的標準還有包含必須要處理氣候的就是極端氣候包含地震這才是一個國際的一個就是核電廠的安全標準那何安慧是不是可以告訴我們你們自己就是相關的這個斷層的研究那到底要如何補強要花多少錢才能夠做到符合國際的所謂綠能標準的一個安全"},{"start":11314.485,"end":11318.527,"text":"其實我們國家為了安全的使用核能我們的核管法有規定基礎運轉的這個執照是合法給40年那如果有需要必須在期滿如果有需要在期滿之後繼續運轉必須在期限之內提出申請我們相關的規範都是為了我們核電能夠是安全的"},{"start":11340.279,"end":11364.046,"text":"但是國民黨跟民眾黨提出來的版本呢他們要延長這個機組運轉的年限而且是在執照屆滿前才提出申請就是相關的一些審查相關的一些評估並沒有足夠的時間來確保機組是安全的在福島核災之後呢其實這些相關的會有輻射污染疑慮的食品呢我們的國人都非常的擔心就"},{"start":11365.746,"end":11389.056,"text":"在食品安全上大家都非常的注重那現在像他們這個川沸水的排放啊大家也如影大敵啊都一直在監測就是相關的會有這些輻射污染的這些相關的物質我們都一直的擔心說會危害到大家的健康那現在我們可以把核能排除我們可以有自己的不擔心健康不擔心安全的這樣的居住環境為什麼我們還要繼續繞在裡面"},{"start":11393.527,"end":11404.872,"text":"那其實國眾兩黨你們沒有去顧慮到核能安全及最終處置場污潔的狀況你們只是一直的想要用你們自己的政治目的我覺得這真是無視國際趨勢以及台灣人民的憂心那根據2024世界核能產業現況報告來看其實在2004到2023年間全球啟動了102座的反應爐但是有104座的機組是遭到關閉"},{"start":11423.061,"end":11427.546,"text":"中國增加了49座但是在中國以外的地區是淨減51座基礎所以這邊還是要強調其實除了中國以外的地區是呈現淨減少的趨勢所以你要一直說其他國家可以其他國家是誰是中國嗎"},{"start":11439.437,"end":11447.202,"text":"你們一心的趨向中國連使用能源的這個思維是向中國靠近嗎根據國際上的這個能源趨勢其實日本的核電佔比從過去的6.1%減到5.6%那剛才民眾黨講到說南韓其實南韓雖然有全球五大的核能計畫但是南韓的電力公司的債務是高達1470億美金"},{"start":11464.031,"end":11485.943,"text":"那非常剛好的是我們我們一直在台建的經費是被國眾兩黨是散光光那所以我這邊希望說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員你們要有點邏輯你們一直在攻擊說民進黨但是你有沒有想到說我們民進黨是希望說我們的國人我們的國家有個安全的安心的電力發展沒有核安就沒有核能"},{"start":11486.423,"end":11500.512,"text":"那在這邊呢我想請台電跟何安慰這邊你們說明一下恆春的斷層的活躍性是不是你們事先有沒有跟氣象署這邊來進行評估目前河山場的安全性是不是足夠的"},{"start":11502.25,"end":11516.856,"text":"那河山廠萬一真的不幸發生事故方圓多少里任的民眾是需要撤離還有目前世界上研議的河電廠有哪幾廠是附近有斷層的這個部分請你們等一下也說明一下以上陳秀寶委員發言那請這個郭育晴委員"},{"start":11523.716,"end":11541.909,"text":"就我剛剛其實在台上我所講的就是我們要去研議到底我們的核能發電廠是不是要研議這個部分我們台電有沒有足夠的一個業務費來評估然後又要花多少錢然後再來我看了很多這個藍白的共同的版本"},{"start":11542.329,"end":11562.054,"text":"第一就是在審查的時間他們是縮短的再來研議的時間是完全放寬到沒有上限也就是說他們沒有天花板那這種沒有天花板的一個狀況是不是就有可能會讓整個所有的核電的機組無限期的運行不管它的機組老不老舊"},{"start":11563.174,"end":11578.705,"text":"沒有考量到安全的一個問題這是我們大家最擔心的我舉例來講像王洪威的版本他說到底是在執照到期前多久來提出他並沒有寫清楚那另外包含這個邱振軍跟楊瓊瑛委員的版本到底經營者應該要事先提出申請請問事先到底這個時間是多久"},{"start":11586.61,"end":11604.682,"text":"那另外像翁曉林委員的版本就是講到研議運轉的年限沒有天花板所以這個沒有天花板是重新再運轉這個執照會不會完全忽略掉老舊機組他們運轉當中可能出現安全上重大的"},{"start":11605.542,"end":11626.661,"text":"維安的一個問題那這個部分是不是應該要嚴格的來考慮那最後一個問題就是我剛剛提到台電到底現在有沒有足夠的業務費來做這個評估任何一個國家的核電廠要研議要經過數年的評估要經過非常多的工程跟所有的評估的研究而且要投入大筆的預算我們台電現在有這個能力嗎 以上"},{"start":11632.394,"end":11647.806,"text":"謝謝龜群委員接下來請張阿玲委員好那我也是想要就這個安全性的部分來請教一下台電跟河安會就是說就如同剛剛許多委員都有提到就是說這個延宜無限延長這件事情在國外有沒有相關的案例"},{"start":11649.248,"end":11670.168,"text":"然後以及我們研議的一個流程依照國際標準它所要進行的時間它所需要做的安全評估甚至說 因為這些條文裡面還有牽扯到重啟的部分大概是哪些如果以我們現在委員這些版本是可行的嗎第三個部分是說"},{"start":11671.479,"end":11693.473,"text":"台灣 地震 颱風 地下人蟲這都是跟歐洲不同的條件那如果我們現在要去做這樣子的一個重啟或是延誼的討論的時候呢我們現在有沒有相關的一些預估然後我們有沒有相關的一些預算可以去做這樣子的一個評估 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員那我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":11701.173,"end":11701.855,"text":"剛剛吳立華委員有"},{"start":11708.086,"end":11730.26,"text":"民進黨的這個立委我可不可以把它補到後面好不好那個就是所以待會張啟凱委員發言完劉書斌委員然後再來吳佩儀委員跟伍麗華委員謝謝我先來解答民進黨立委剛提了幾個點剛有人提到說國外啊人家比較先進的國家到底有沒有研議量大概怎麼樣"},{"start":11732.622,"end":11747.759,"text":"日本在民國就是用我們的年度112年的2月底有通過他們的核電廠的嚴厲法案引起他們的核電廠再嚴厲20年他們跟我一樣都是先用40年嚴厲20年以後就變成60年美國呢"},{"start":11751.089,"end":11760.832,"text":"可以延長40年所以已經長達可以用80年而且美國他們已經重啟跟研擬這個核電他們這個有96座我先回答這個問題另外剛剛民進黨立委也提到他們說啊多用綠電綠電的價格 國際價格在降"},{"start":11771.786,"end":11790.452,"text":"我跟他報告一個數據民進黨主政下的這個綠電不只買了比一般的國家貴了很多我給大家一個非常明確的數據在民國110年的時候民進黨去買的再生能源的這個綠電平均價格一度電視4.75塊到了112年往上走了"},{"start":11794.979,"end":11799.149,"text":"漲到一度墊5.20到了去年又再度漲漲到5.46"},{"start":11803.021,"end":11831.434,"text":"事實上今天會討論說要不要用核電當然安全一定要顧慮等一下我們要討論可是也是因為民進黨執政之下他們沒有做到沒有做到蔡英文說的我們如果再生能源買越來越多量的時候價格要降低他是跳票的我剛剛的數據非常的明確一開始他們買的就是比國際的價格多了第二個更嚴重的他們不只沒有沒有往下降是往上飆的所以也出現了"},{"start":11832.793,"end":11858.642,"text":"台電一直在虧錢我們人民一直在漲電價賺到的是某些親民進黨的力友友們這也是為什麼今天必須討論這個修正案一個非常重要的原因第二個民進黨立委今天在強調安全的問題我覺得民進黨如果這樣無限制的這個講話那應該民進黨要修法不要搭飛機也不要搭車了"},{"start":11860.134,"end":11876.371,"text":"你從歷史去看台灣從核一廠開始用到現在核一 核二 核三有發生過重大的災害嗎沒有吧而且你們這麼不尊重我們的專家嗎核安會有這麼多的專家在你們對他們沒有信心嗎"},{"start":11877.728,"end":11894.391,"text":"第二個從全世界來看你不只是以前從歷史看核一核二 核三的運作是安全的你從全世界去看全世界都在重啟核能就表示他們對安全是有信心的美國發生過山梨島事件"},{"start":11895.933,"end":11907.96,"text":"日本確實沒有錯 發生過福島這個核災啊可是這兩個國家現在都是重啟核能我剛剛講了 日本把核電廠可以用的這個重啟跟研擬長達20年 去年他們還重啟了他們日本最大的核電廠連歐洲歐盟以前有比較反對用核電的就是德國人德國你看上個月他們的大選"},{"start":11924.687,"end":11942.813,"text":"跟民進黨一樣那個反核的第一大黨跟第二大黨慘敗贏的是要求要用核電的連以前不用核電的這個義大利都說以前的文藝復興現在義大利要推動核電的這個"},{"start":11944.916,"end":11969.277,"text":"復興 為什麼 因為它是穩定的 它是低廉的它也是安全的 全世界是這樣 你從以前台灣的歷史也是這樣那民進黨如果一直要販賣恐懼 你們拿不出證據那請你們立法 搭飛機很危險啊 有沒有搭飛機很安全啊 被你們講成是危險的那是不是 如果照你們這樣推 那就不要搭飛機了 你車子都不要開了"},{"start":11971.394,"end":11995.135,"text":"我講的是非常非常清楚 那台灣民眾黨提的這個第六條的修正案我們只是把之前 事實上也是林議員 林委員剛剛講的從以前的精神 你本來就是可以重啟 可以研議嘛我們更精準的把以前 要在五年前要提出申請把它縮短期限 讓它可以更及時所以是在屆滿前一到六個月 請大家注意看後面這個"},{"start":11996.291,"end":12015.488,"text":"要經過申請之後要經過儲管機關確認何時反應設施安全無虞你才能夠換照才能延逸啊所以安全當然是第一的啊所以請民進黨不要再換賣不要再換賣恐懼感裡面清清楚楚請對我們的專家有信心"},{"start":12016.907,"end":12030.272,"text":"請對大家有信心然後第二個我也要一直在剛剛已經在歸欠民進黨的立委現在全民都在看你們在你們目前的錯誤的能源政策之下為什麼全民現在多數的民意都認為要用核電也是因為你們去買綠電的時候買太貴了"},{"start":12032.685,"end":12051.644,"text":"挖了一個大的一個洞然後又把合一合二山停掉之後每年要多付一千億的這個支出導致兩個很嚴重的禍果因為我們電價不只是已經漲了四次過去三年漲了四十趴了對民生對我們的產業衝擊很大我們不是一直在說我們要幫我們的護國神山留在台灣嗎"},{"start":12052.825,"end":12076.803,"text":"台積電前陣子都出來講了他們在全世界有那麼多的廠民進黨就要一直漲電價所有廠裡面最貴的電價已經是在台灣了我們要繼續再漲電價下去嗎兩天五天我們看在那第一就是沒有用核電的一年一千億第二就是因為你們去買的太貴的這個綠電把這兩個東西趕快去補起來我們不只不用漲電價還可以降電價今天在野黨是非常負責任的"},{"start":12077.603,"end":12092.846,"text":"提出了這個修正案我們希望法令建前讓我們國家可以使用核電不過必須要強調主動前還是在民進黨如果民進黨的立法委員民進黨政府一直不願意提出申請老實講以後漲電價以後我們的產業受到影響請找民進黨負責謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員接下來請劉淑檳委員好"},{"start":12104.355,"end":12120.526,"text":"想要問的是核安會那既然大家都強調的是核安非常重要所以想要問的是核安三法裡面包括緊急應變的法還有核子事故的賠償法還有包括是永久的核廢料的處置場什麼時候會有院版出現"},{"start":12127.253,"end":12134.358,"text":"行政院的版本要出現請問有沒有這樣的規劃那有的話是什麼時候會出現那這就是大家關心的我們民眾黨就關心到這個議題那第二個問題呢因為在原子能委員就是這個國際的原子能總署當中它對於核安事故全球的部分呢它有這個國際的核能事件的分級表那我想請問的目前還在營運的核三廠能夠因應到這個分類表分級表當中的第七級的部分嗎"},{"start":12156.872,"end":12178.162,"text":"就是說你們當初的規劃或是能夠因應到哪一級的這樣的一個這樣的發生到核災那就目前有看到說這個核災發生的情況之下的風險我要提醒一下就是說風險的發生的事情跟核災難的這個重點有差別就說了飛機要坐搭車或坐飛機你搭車常常發生事故但是你坐飛機的時候呢它"},{"start":12184.588,"end":12213.168,"text":"看起來好像一旦發生事故事故在天上掉下來大概是很少是沒有能夠倖免於難的但是飛機掉下來的時候它飛機的發生這個掉下來的比例是到底是多少如果是比較高的話那是不是這樣的情況之下它是不是都不要大家搭飛機了所以我想這部分要看到核災發生的比例是這個風險比例我想要請何安慧提供我們這個數據包括台灣目前的這樣的數據是多少如果是"},{"start":12213.948,"end":12231.455,"text":"核災看起來很可怕但是一旦發生說沒辦法影響但是它比例比例我們還是科學要提供證據在這個情況之下是不是提供一下台灣發生在面對到這種地震或是七級的這樣的情況之下到底比例會多少好 那國際間對待這樣的情況是怎麼樣的好 謝謝謝謝劉淑冰委員我們接下來請吳佩儀委員"},{"start":12240.327,"end":12255.974,"text":"這個剛剛前面張啟凱委員又再次提到所以今天核管法的修法然後跟電價之間的關係所以等一下我想要請台電來說明即便今天這個核管法的修法即便今天通過了"},{"start":12256.894,"end":12282.177,"text":"它有可能影響到今年十月的電價審議嗎這是第一點好 再來是我覺得邏輯還是要弄清楚剛剛有很多委員提到說那麼到底政府部門的態度是什麼即便這個修法通過了還是要看政府部門的態度那我想態度其實非常的清楚因為我們核管法現行法規並沒有禁止"},{"start":12282.677,"end":12297.446,"text":"新建新的核電廠也沒有禁止讓核電廠來演繹只不過在現行的法規之內是規範如果你要提出演繹換照的話必須要在五年之前為什麼要有這個時間就是因為我們對於過去沒有經過環評就蓋下去的這些老舊的核電廠在台灣倘若要演繹的話它的安全審查"},{"start":12308.772,"end":12331.11,"text":"是絕對非同小可 不容小覷一定要做到非常的完整所以你要安全的審查它就需要時間可是我們現在看到今天國民黨跟民眾黨提出來修法的版本民眾黨是把要申請延長的時間縮短 從五年縮短到一個月至六個月"},{"start":12332.999,"end":12343.125,"text":"這個是縮短非常多那甚至有其他我剛剛提到邱正軍委員的版本甚至沒有提時間他只說法條裡面竟然只說你只要事先提出申請"},{"start":12344.665,"end":12349.846,"text":"事先提出那是不是在屆期前一天也叫做事先前兩天也叫做事先嗎這個審查如果把時間縮短的話會讓我們真的擔心未來安全的問題所以我還是要請等會和安會可以來進行說明如果現在這個假設這個要提出申請研議的對和安會來提出申請的話"},{"start":12370.43,"end":12375.751,"text":"他需要提供什麼樣的文件那需要進行什麼樣的檢查然後除了檢查之外他必須要提供什麼樣的哪些強化的這個準備那是不是要去提出新建幹儲設施的計畫來給河安會進行審查呢這個是第一點等會要請河安會來說明的第二點"},{"start":12394.156,"end":12399.002,"text":"除了核安會要審查之外其實台電有沒有要提出重點還是台電有沒有要提出他也要做內部的評估嘛所以我要請台電來說明你們會進行什麼樣的評估必須要評估哪些的標準跟事項因為剛剛很多委員在擔心啊"},{"start":12410.716,"end":12416.16,"text":"這個包含了現在的環評現在的地址等等台電會進行什麼樣的評估我想如果我真的要去討論讓研議這個時間要縮短的話國安也必須要清楚我們也必須要清楚到底會經過什麼樣的檢查目前有沒有相關的評估再來第三個我要問的問題是為什麼我們今天一再的強調核廢料的處置很重要"},{"start":12434.926,"end":12454.671,"text":"燃料棒的處置很重要因為以現行的情況來說我們的核一核二廠並不是全部都是因為借其滿了才除役我們的核電廠一號機原先表定的時間是可以運轉到110年12月27號但是提前在110年7月就停止運轉了為什麼"},{"start":12460.373,"end":12480.821,"text":"就是因為他的燃料池滿了燃料池滿了沒有辦法去處理和燃料池的問題導致於他沒有辦法繼續運轉那我們現在在問的問題就是現在即便這個國民黨跟民眾黨的提案要這個政府再去提出這麼多新的評估然後可能為了要和電廠研議再去做這麼多的這個花費的成本"},{"start":12484.742,"end":12492.168,"text":"但是最後如果你還是沒有辦法新建新的乾儲場你之後還是沒有辦法去處理燃料池會滿溢的問題它還是有可能必須要去停止運轉那我們真的有需要去付出這麼多前面的時間社會成本以及經濟成本嗎所以我們要再次強調為什麼去討論核分料的處置這麼的重要因為我們現在現行的就告訴我們了嘛就已經有核二廠就是因為燃料池滿了"},{"start":12513.163,"end":12517.946,"text":"不是借期不是時間到是滿了沒有辦法處理就沒有辦法繼續運轉所以等會這一點我也要請台電來去說明我們現在合一合二合三我們目前各個廠區廚藝的狀況以及過去的理由跟原因因為我想這個倘若今天國民黨民眾黨多數嘛等會我擔心主席還會再次停止討論又要強行通過這個法案的話那我想國人必須要去知道這相關的問題謝謝"},{"start":12541.263,"end":12558.678,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩儀委員我們請吳立華委員 謝謝陳佩儀委員 下一位好 謝謝主席我們在討論這個第六條那就是關心說到底執照要延長還是說強制申請換證那這個部分"},{"start":12561.821,"end":12581.798,"text":"到底是不是假議題因為剛才都有提到說我們先給他留一個彈性嘛法律的彈性空間嘛又不一定齁所以我就在想這到底是不是假議題齁所以麻煩等一下何安慧我是這樣子喔我個人啦我可能來的比較低階啦"},{"start":12582.879,"end":12608.3,"text":"我個人一聽到經濟考量什麼電價數字發電量我就渾身不舒服因為我覺得這個不僅僅是安全的問題也要考量到社會公平正義的問題所以當我們在談以蒼生為念的時候你到底是高瞻遠瞩還是短視盡力所以我在這邊我先請教一下假設我從屏東來 河山場"},{"start":12609.961,"end":12631.908,"text":"就是我們都知道這個河山場它確實是在恆春斷層的附近那也有一些研究說這個斷層可能有穿過這個廠區我等一下聽一下回覆好那這個長指西側的外海呢還有逆沖斷層更加增加這個地震發生的風險"},{"start":12633.268,"end":12655.105,"text":"那我知道的是光是這個低階核廢料的蘭嶼它在2011年的時候在它的潮間帶就已經偵測到G60所以確實有這個輻射外洩的這樣的一個恐懼那核三廠它當初的設計的時候它的耐震標準那到底是多少"},{"start":12655.825,"end":12681.603,"text":"那進行補強提升我知道有提升但是我也看到說專家評估如果發生比較大規模的地震可能這個地表加速度會超過這個數值所以我想這個部分我想聽一聽何安會的一個回應那再來我也要很關心的就是我們所謂的社會公平正義的體現那到底"},{"start":12684.249,"end":12697.268,"text":"我們能不能確保當地的居民有參與討論的權利絕對不要這樣子被迫的來接受決策然後呢就告訴我們經濟的考量因為電價會提升因為怎樣怎樣"},{"start":12698.939,"end":12724.348,"text":"我還是要提到我們必須要讓當地的居民有參與討論的這個權利不是要被迫接受政策所以這個部分如何在確保安全的前提下讓這些承擔最多風險的地方他也能夠擁有最有保障的未來我想這個部分才真正是以昌生為念謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員請陳佩玉委員"},{"start":12734.717,"end":12734.737,"text":"好"},{"start":12739.646,"end":12768.32,"text":"謝謝主席我雖然不是教育化委員會可是過去兩年確實我們已經討論過非常多次類似的議題但是我今天看到國民黨委員所有版本包含民眾黨委員提案的版本我還是感到非常的遺憾幾個問題他們今天在相關的發言當中也不斷的造謠那我想有必要讓我們一一澄清第一個就是他們只提研議但是研議所付出必須付出的代價跟成本他們完全不去討論完全不去考量"},{"start":12768.9,"end":12778.705,"text":"他們口口聲聲保證安全還說相關的責任在主管機關那我就問了 能夠主管機關這些專家學者每一個人是會通靈嗎為什麼我要這樣說福島核災發生的時候當時就有日本專家站出來所有之前在蓋這個核電廠的時候所有的環境評估都沒有人評估到海嘯但海嘯就發生了福島核災就發生了"},{"start":12793.172,"end":12822.812,"text":"那個是我們後來記取教訓之後我們學會某些經驗之後我們回頭再去看所以就算你們說發生的機率微乎其微甚至有人沒有邏輯的拿坐飛機這件事情來當成比喻我就覺得這個是一個非常荒謬沒有邏輯的說法所以如果連你們國民黨口中的日本 韓國 法國 美國都有很多難以預測的環境變因那請問在未來如果你們硬要通過這個第六條的修正"},{"start":12823.652,"end":12845.199,"text":"请问可不可以拿出来你们认为更可以说服国人的证据不要把责任都只有丢到主管机关身上我刚已经说过在日本的案例当中当时海啸并没有作为评估的环境因素那我想这个部分我还是希望待会主管机关可以回答我也希望你们不要碍于所谓立法委员的压力而没有办法说出真话"},{"start":12845.899,"end":12874.666,"text":"另外呢目前核電機組設備老化相關核災事故的風險上升我們在評估所有公共環境的安全因素的時候考量的是各式各樣的可能那當然會有所謂的偏差值但是我要說目前所有的人造物都會有老化的問題故障的問題用一個最簡單的邏輯從小孩騎的腳踏車到年輕人騎的摩托車到我們大人開的車都會有設備老化的問題"},{"start":12875.606,"end":12890.479,"text":"但是換一個車子的零件跟換一個核電廠相關設備的零件是一樣的嗎當然不一樣目前我們遇到的困境是反應爐壓力容器消防管道電纜電線鋼筋混泥土為主體都有老化的因素"},{"start":12890.939,"end":12911.042,"text":"在後續的研議當中請問我們有更多的國際經驗可以參考嗎我們有更多安全的數字可以提供給國人參考嗎我們真的可以讓國人放心嗎甚至對於反應爐壓力容器催化的問題目前國民黨跟民眾黨依然避而不談只有推動研議不討論真正的安全問題我還是覺得是非常大的問題"},{"start":12911.943,"end":12940.913,"text":"接下來我想要提醒張祺凱委員口口聲聲把電價上漲這件事情呢怪罪到民進黨身上我想要提供一個數字在法國他是用核電比超過六成的國家但是不管用任何能源他只要遇到二五戰爭類似的事情我要說的是類似的國際情勢能源都會上漲法國甚至漲到一百多趴請問這跟張祺凱委員剛剛講的有任何的關係嗎我完全看不出來"},{"start":12942.682,"end":12971.137,"text":"所以我要提醒就是以核電作為使用主要使用的國家法國依然遇到大漲電價的問題跟有沒有所謂的綠電再生能源一點關係都沒有接下來相關的研議成本如果沒有作為考量我們要問這些難道都不用算進發電成本裡頭嗎大家避而不談的是研議我剛說這些設備老化的問題都是用電成本請大家要有邏輯去看這個事情好 接下來"},{"start":12972.731,"end":12989.571,"text":"我們研議真的會有所謂的經濟優勢嗎國民黨跟民眾黨如同剛吳立華委員提醒的口口聲聲談經濟發展的優勢可是當時台電在估算研議的成本那個是在什麼時候預估的我不知道台電最近一次預估研議的成本是在什麼時候2014還是2018"},{"start":12991.693,"end":13012.045,"text":"一直到現在2025年了相關研議的成本我們連一般的蓋房子的成本都說已經上漲很多了難道研議的成本沒有增加嗎這個部分我要請台電回答明白的告訴所有關心這個議題的立法委員大家來看一看這個研議的成本算下去發電成本真的如你們說的是這麼划算嗎好 再來"},{"start":13014.231,"end":13031.943,"text":"雖然主席說我們已經有很多的討論跟很多的公聽會可是我認為在沒有社會共識的前提之下我們貿然就要做出這個決定甚至要用多數暴力表決的方法來表達你們的立場我也只能說我尊重但是我們在意的事情我們還是希望實質的討論當然我們還是希望主管機關可以作為回應還有關於國際發電成本上漲這件事情台灣到底在你的國際趨勢中是什麼樣的樣態而不要再讓"},{"start":13041.65,"end":13051.569,"text":"民眾黨的委員一直在造謠全部都怪罪到民進黨執政團體的身上以上 謝謝好 我們最後請汪小林委員簡短"},{"start":13055.029,"end":13075.55,"text":"我想在这边有几个科学的事实必须要说清楚第一个就是针对于全世界现在到底有多少的国家在延长核电厂或者是在新建核电厂的数据我相信这个是在IEA的网站上面都有可以清楚找到的"},{"start":13076.491,"end":13105.339,"text":"在2023年第28届联合国的气候变现大会里面就有22个国家倡议永和未来核能要增加三倍由此可见民进党的委员根本就不做功课也不去看看一下世界国家的发展的趋势然后第二个就是民进党政府已经执政9年了现在的核安会之前叫原能会所有的主委都是民进党政府任命的如果认为说现在的台电"},{"start":13105.979,"end":13119.913,"text":"不安全台电的这个核电厂不安全那么为什么不策划核安会的主委核安会监督无能对不对台电董事长也要换啊在你们的口口声声不是说核电厂不安全吗"},{"start":13124.341,"end":13143.209,"text":"一直都说不安全那不安全为什么不早点把核电厂就关掉了呢这个完全就是违背逻辑再说待会要请何安慧来说你的逻辑才有问题到底我们的耐震现在的核二核三厂二号机核三厂和二厂的耐震度跟海啸"},{"start":13145.249,"end":13169.139,"text":"這個相關的風險評估過去台電有沒有做過報告河安會有沒有去做過相關的評估報告我們的河二跟河三廠是通不過這樣子的一個耐震度嗎這以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們請河安會主委或相關部會列席人員來一併做個簡要回答那希望都可以回答到 謝謝"},{"start":13171.83,"end":13196.104,"text":"主席各位委員現在的核電廠是當年的原子能委員會給予40年的執照當初是根據40年的運轉期核發執照40年以後呢當初是沒有評估的所以呢"},{"start":13197.492,"end":13219.397,"text":"這要變成一個整體總檢查這檢查範圍變得非常非常廣比如說地震、颱風、海嘯、老化還有最近的福島事件引起的需要加強的部分這時候是將來要列入評估的至於要花多少錢"},{"start":13221.94,"end":13236.946,"text":"河岸會沒有這些資料 台電才有這些資料而且我現在也不知道有哪些零件要更換哪些東西要補強 要評估才知道所以這些"},{"start":13238.615,"end":13265.825,"text":"这些很多因素是要台电才知道要问要多少时间才能完成这个审车这个我也没有办法承诺因为有太多变数在里面我现在也没有办法承诺说台电申请了我就核准我没有办法做承诺要评估才知道是不是这个"},{"start":13267.452,"end":13295.884,"text":"還有呢 等一下我還會請那個河岸管制組跟保防應變組的組長也替我回答一些問題 特別是地震斷層這方面的問題 請他們也給我補充我看還有哪些大概我們先請河岸管制組組長給我回答 最後我再補充好不好"},{"start":13299.182,"end":13312.949,"text":"核安管制組請高組長有關委員剛才提到的地震議題核電廠在建廠的時候有針對長子鄰近的區域進行地質調查包括一些天然災害喂"},{"start":13327.83,"end":13355.173,"text":"好 那我重新再一遍核安管制組高平說明核電廠在建廠的時候是依照長者鄰近區域有進行地質調查包括一些天然災害來作為耐震設計的考量在2007年跟2009年三角斷層跟橫層斷層中央地調所公布資訊之後核安會要求台電公司是參考美國的做法進行一些地質調查跟安全提基系統的耐震強化"},{"start":13356.144,"end":13367.802,"text":"那另外在2011年日本福島事故後那也參考美國 核安會參考美國的做法就要求台電公司依照美國替證危害評估資深專家小組"},{"start":13368.891,"end":13392.736,"text":"的程序進行機率式地震文案分析那依照分析的結果來強化安全停機系統跟燃料的冷卻以及用過燃料池的結構完整性那之後再進行機率式的地震安全度的評估那主要目的是要確保在超越設計基準地震的時候基礎仍然可以安全停機也確保用過燃料池的安全"},{"start":13393.616,"end":13417.656,"text":"那針對那個委員有提到日本敦賀電廠這部分日本的管制單位針對敦賀鄰近有一個斷層那得出了一個結論就我們所知道的是說不能排除斷層的活動的可能性那另外也沒辦法排除斷層通過反映入正向方正下方的可能性所以目前我們了解的資訊是這樣"},{"start":13418.917,"end":13441.981,"text":"那有關於國外的安全評估這部分申請換照事實上在我們的法規是參考美國的相關規定來辦理就是要台電公司要針對整個電廠的老化評估跟老化管理以及老化分析等這些安全評估那當然設備的檢查跟更新這部分台電公司要辦理"},{"start":13443.134,"end":13463.439,"text":"那當然所有東西必須要經過修法通過後那台電公司按照他的可行性安全性進行整體的評估來確認說要不要申請以上說明好是否還是應該有不同部會嗎好保安應變組這邊來這個黃組長"},{"start":13467.051,"end":13492.824,"text":"是 保安應變組黃學元在這邊針對委員剛剛提到了國內目前發生最嚴重的核子事故就是在核三廠2001年它的3A事件那這個3A事件它的原因是因為上司延誤害上市所的外電導致全廠全黑兩個小時那之後因為靠我們的緊急才有發電機就起來"},{"start":13493.624,"end":13520.33,"text":"那這個在國際核能事件分級那國際核能事件分級大概簡單說分成三類一個就是對場外如果輻射影響到場外第二類呢是輻射已經到了場內那第三類就是說它基本上沒有輻射外勢但是因為深層防禦就是因為我們在安全系統上有各層那它是屬於第三類深層防禦失效所以它在"},{"start":13521.33,"end":13540.591,"text":"國際可能事件分歧INES這一部分它是第二類第二級那像福島它就是很大量的外食它就是第七級這是有關這個國內的核子事故的部分那剛我也提到說這個如果發生核子事故國內大概從核三廠來講"},{"start":13541.972,"end":13557.756,"text":"我們基本上目前是以所謂的超前部署預防性疏散的概念在輻射還沒有外適的時候我們就會優先來疏散3公里的民眾那以河山而言3公里內大概有7200位的民眾"},{"start":13560.177,"end":13584.235,"text":"那如果再嚴重我們會疏散八公里或是下風處那八公里的民眾目前是有三萬兩千位民眾針對核酸的這樣的數據如果再嚴重我們就會針對所有的輻射的熱點他只要是超只要是達到我們民眾應該疏散的那我們就會來疏散那依照目前"},{"start":13585.776,"end":13608.865,"text":"30公里整個河山的話大概有5萬4千個民眾我想在這邊提供一些數據給委員參考那接下來因為有問題提問是關於台電那董事長也在現場我們是不是也讓曾董事長回應好謝謝主席還有謝謝各位委員那個因為剛有非常多的提問我"},{"start":13609.895,"end":13629.412,"text":"能夠我接下來的我大概依照順序跟大家做一些回答首先第一件事情是我們一直在討論就是核電被怎麼定義它是不是綠電是不是永續能源是不是乾淨能源等等但坦白講這都是形容詞我講簡單一點就是Cov-23他那個講的時候他其實很清楚做了一個定義"},{"start":13636.138,"end":13661.598,"text":"其實是全世界的能源產業都需要融資那它針對融資把它做了一個定義就是它是不是永續能源的定義那它永續能源的定義大概做了一個事情它有兩段第一段就是否責任的就是你有沒有辦法處理核廢料這一件事比方說2050年前要能夠"},{"start":13663.221,"end":13673.721,"text":"處理高階核廢料能夠選址等等問題要解決然後現在能夠處理低階核廢料那在這種前提能夠達成的狀況下你是什麼樣的機組"},{"start":13676.069,"end":13694.636,"text":"它有三種樣態的規定包括在什麼時候拿到研議許可坦白講它是否一個可不可以被視為是融資的合理對象的一個項目啦那至於這個社會上現在國際流行定義的不管是R100或是什麼樣的狀況那個R1的狀況"},{"start":13698.246,"end":13713.011,"text":"是有一點點不一樣的但無論如何他的定義上面我想大家在各種的網路資料上面都可以問到這個台電公司不要多做解釋我們只是說客觀大概是這些事給各位委員做參考"},{"start":13714.071,"end":13730.624,"text":"這是第一件事第二件事情就是台灣的供電狀況台灣公司其實很努力在開發新的電源也讓我們的整個電網能夠更強韌那所有的供電狀況就是依照我們公布的電力供需報告在做執行"},{"start":13731.164,"end":13758.499,"text":"那依照現行的法律對台電公司來講我們是沒有辦法把核能考慮在裡面的所以接續的所有的目前眼前的所有的報告是沒有考慮核能這個項目的我們依然要維持供電穩定我想說跟委員會做說明那接下來就會進到一些相關的細節裡面我跟委員報告最主要的核安審查細節其實是有主管機關"},{"start":13760.34,"end":13779.495,"text":"來做審查坦白講大院是立法機關和安會或是過去的園人會是執法機關台電是遵法的機構我們是要去尊重依照法律去做執行的法律給了什麼樣的條件我們就必須做什麼樣子的一些工作對台電來說對台電來說"},{"start":13784.042,"end":13798.358,"text":"我們在過去其實做過很多跟河岸有關的相關的評估那如果真的要去做再進一步的評估哪些問題可以被克服其實台電完全沒有辦法講"},{"start":13799.926,"end":13819.199,"text":"因為這個要委員審查比方說剛才我們那個主管機關提到了就是我們有關於地震危害度分析等等過去從2012吧還是201幾年2011一直到2014有拿出來做報告然後在2016年已經上網的Shake Level 3等等的報告"},{"start":13820.779,"end":13835.564,"text":"包括大家最關心的地震危害度分析其實我們都有提那只是說這些地震危害的分析我們怎麼樣有效的管理跟克服這個需要專家給我們意見最後一點我必須要特別說明的"},{"start":13837.52,"end":13857.69,"text":"我剛才在這邊一直聽 不好意思各位有人容我說一下話因為台電公司其實這段時間以來一直在爭取我們的電價合理化跟大院的補助但我們如果一直不斷地強調和安是最重要的同時又把和安跟電價掛鉤這個對台電真的是不公平的事情似乎你不做這個事情電價不應該調整或是不應該給補助"},{"start":13868.752,"end":13881.931,"text":"我們算過他的比例 一再的做說明我覺得這個對台電真的不公道張委員 真的 這樣子一直講真的不公道"},{"start":13884.428,"end":13900.684,"text":"好 剛好我們經濟部次長就可以回應了我們是不是接著請經濟部的何政次來做說明好 謝謝昭偉 各位委員我想希望就是以這個委員的詢問來做回應有關心到綠電的價格的問題"},{"start":13903.326,"end":13922.935,"text":"其實綠電價格其實世界各國皆然大概就是說在發展綠電的初期它的單價都是比較高的但是隨著整個技術的進步整個綠電的價格會往下降以光電的費率來看我們的統計2010年每度電是高達到11.76但是已經下達到今年2025年每度電已經降到4.49"},{"start":13932.38,"end":13959.42,"text":"那下降幅度大概是六成的一個幅度那離岸風電的部分2017年每度電是6.04塊那下降到今年已經達到4.51的這樣的一個價格所以我們的再生能源的一個部分也逐漸從頓購走向企業購電其實大概七八年的時間其實相較於英國或德國他們從頓購走向"},{"start":13961.922,"end":13974.994,"text":"這個企業購電要十幾年的時間去台灣已經非常快速了那所以這樣的一個結果其實可以減緩這個台電對電價成本的這個影響所以以上跟各位做報告說明謝謝"},{"start":13976.155,"end":13991.622,"text":"好那因為剛剛有委員問到這個今天修法過假設有通過是不是就強制一定要使用核能或者是一些法條上的我想因為今天我們有法務部的代表是不是也請汪參事做個回應"},{"start":13994.868,"end":14018.801,"text":"主席跟各位委員大家好就法務部的立場來看這個問題因為今天主要是委員提案是要修這個母法的第六條的規定那其實我們有關這個提出的申請換發的執照是在審核辦法的第十六條那因為這個第十六條是由母法的授權來規範那如果真的要"},{"start":14019.821,"end":14036.329,"text":"在母法裡面修正的話那這個相關的審核辦法顯然一定也要配合修正才有辦法運作那但是這個部分涉及的非常廣因為這個核子反應器設施的運轉還有甚至再運轉這個涉及到這個原來的運轉執照的換發"},{"start":14042.212,"end":14062.181,"text":"因為這個問題涉及到的是非常專業的核能安全的技術還有相關的專業知識那這個必須是主管機關 核安會他們應該是要做一個相關的實證這樣子可能才比較有辦法做出就這個換發"},{"start":14064.382,"end":14087.776,"text":"審核所需要的時程還有安全條件還有什麼樣的方式要提出什麼樣的文件這樣做一個考量那這個部分可能需要真的是需要非常多層次多面向整體的配套考量那所以我們建議是不是還是應該是要先由主管機關和安會來做一個相關的實證還有專業的審慎評估來草擬一個條文"},{"start":14093.252,"end":14116.527,"text":"這樣子可能經由這樣主管機關專業的意見還有經驗的政策決定在大院的審議結果我們都應該這樣子就可以予以尊重以上 謝謝好 謝謝汪參事那因為我想我們也經過非常多的討論我們在整個會期質詢的時候也都提到我們在問相關問題的時候"},{"start":14122.773,"end":14127.098,"text":"我剛剛有一個問題我是說台電到底有沒有足夠的經費來評估這個研議的費用"},{"start":14131.587,"end":14158.498,"text":"成本因為在我剛剛提到2014年我們出估研議至少要花費580億是2014年台電的評估但現在已經11年過去了所有的成本費用一定都一定是相對提升請問台電現在有能力可以來做這樣子的一個研議的一個評估嗎請台電董事長回答那個跟委員報告就如果說這一個因為這所有的台電的支出大概就是要有預算"},{"start":14159.588,"end":14184.705,"text":"那2025年的我們是沒有編列預算這是事實啦就是說因為沒有這個基礎我們也沒有編列預算這個先說就是沒有這個預算那要怎麼樣子有預算可以執行我想說這個要另外做討論這是第一個部分第二個部分是研議要多少錢坦白說台電因為尤其是今天核能管制機關都在這台電不可能回答這一件事因為我到底要做多少事"},{"start":14186.041,"end":14214.449,"text":"要管制機關跟我講了我確定了才能做但我可以告訴各位一件事就是2014年的2014年那時候曾經說過一個數字這個數字到現在為止應該要有調整啦這個是跑不掉的然後我也要在這邊跟所有的委員報告一件事情就是全世界的能源價格之所以有調整它有兩個部分一個部分是變動成本就是燃料的高低的部分"},{"start":14215.149,"end":14241.845,"text":"其實在能源設備投資上確實遭遇通膨而全世界都在面對這樣子的一個就是能源投資的成本提高的一個問題我想台電願意接受很嚴格的監督我們可以來做一些討論就是說因為能源價格是國際上會有一個比較標準是不是只有台灣在漲價我希望有機會的話也能夠跟各位做一些說明就是"},{"start":14242.705,"end":14265.231,"text":"在漲價這件事不是台灣獨有的狀況而是真的全世界都在面對漲價的事那也因為有遇到通膨所以我們才會特別的謹慎這個跟委員做報告那剛才提到的報告委員我們今年沒有編但明年要怎麼樣我覺得我們原則上我們就是會尊重台電就是那一個會依照"},{"start":14266.673,"end":14287.404,"text":"指令去做工作的單位好那那個部分我是跟各位委員先做報告謝謝好好呃剛才還有舉手的是陳佩玉委員好然後呃張綺楷委員那我們是服事接下來就是范雲委員陳秀寶委員啊張雅琳委員吳佩玉委員跟柯志恩委員"},{"start":14289.209,"end":14313.39,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛謝謝台見董事長你也有提到關於COP大會的決議這件事情我也想要請您再幫我澄清看看是我們到底解讀資料有問題還是刻意造成錯誤的資訊散播當時在COP大會上其實提出核能要作為重要能源其實只是某些少數的國家它甚至不是大會的共識他們只是在外面自己開了記者會"},{"start":14314.631,"end":14343.713,"text":"但是我們看到當時在這國際大會之後有將近120個國家他們的最大共識是希望提高再生能源到目前的三倍也就是說世界各國不論是發展經濟照顧民生或者是所謂的能源政策大家都認為再生能源絕對是重要的未來讓地球永續的一條路所以如果COP大會做出這個決議但是卻有立法委員惡意的引用資料只是少數國家"},{"start":14344.854,"end":14359.58,"text":"開了相關的記者會就認為是所謂的大會共識我認為這件事情我們是不是要再一次的澄清也要感謝董事長剛剛提出那也許等一下你可以再給我回應看看我說的資料到底是不是正確的那他們當時的決議文其實是說到2030年再生能源到達三倍節能兩倍甚至他們連核能都沒有提到這是我看到大會共識的資料"},{"start":14368.724,"end":14389.094,"text":"另外您刚刚提到关于能源政策这件事情我非常谢谢你的回应确实张其凯委员屡次不管是在总质询或是非常多的委员会质询当中都刻意的说这是能源政策错误导致电价上涨我要再次强调我们目前所看到资料我认为这是错的等一下还请相关单位回应"},{"start":14390.302,"end":14412.533,"text":"目前我们看到资料是在全球的尺度上日本还有法国核能比占比比台湾高电价也比台湾贵电价涨幅也比台湾高日本的住宅涨了24%工业涨了50%法国的住宅涨了47%工业涨了65%其中工业电价还曾经出现139%的惊人涨幅"},{"start":14416.175,"end":14443.371,"text":"也就是说台湾其实也有学者说出来他甚至是挺核的学者廖慧珠老师都曾经公开说过不论能源结构是什么电价都有上涨而且涨幅跟能源结构不直接相关我要再说一次廖老师说涨幅跟能源结构不直接相关跟政府对电价的补贴和限制比较相关"},{"start":14444.071,"end":14466.896,"text":"不是依賴火力發電就漲得多核電跟綠電為主的國家也有調漲這是目前我們所蒐集到的資料我也想要聽一聽台電目前所遇到的困難跟在相關立法委員溝通上到底出現什麼樣的落差另外我也想問我目前服務的不分區任養的選區是金門還有連江也就是馬祖"},{"start":14467.856,"end":14496.134,"text":"因為他們是柴油發電燃料還有維修成本很高一度電來到十塊錢發電成本但是我們因為要比照公平的台灣居民用電所以居民繳的電價比照台灣只有兩塊到四塊多長期以來的虧損這中間發電成本跟居民繳納電價的虧損都是由台電吸收過去多年來台電一年要補貼三十幾億"},{"start":14497.575,"end":14502.557,"text":"我很想問如果按照張奇凱文的邏輯是不是這個補貼金門跟馬祖連江的高發電成本難道也是一個錯誤的能源政策嗎難道金門跟馬祖的選民不能享有公平的對待嗎如果按照你的邏輯每一個地方發電狀況不同就要用能源政策來亂扯這會造成什麼樣國人對相關知識理解上的誤差我也想要請主管機關幫我回應 謝謝"},{"start":14525.305,"end":14528.368,"text":"我剛剛去看了台電1月份的財報今年1月份台電虧損了97億虧損的最大原因"},{"start":14551.98,"end":14568.283,"text":"是因為去買風電的虧損56億光電虧損5.8億最嚴重是什麼這兩個再生能源加起來只有占所有用電量的8.5%可是它虧損高達60幾億為什麼會這樣子呢就是民眾一直在質疑的嘛你買太貴了你光是裡面的弊案到底出現了多少弊案"},{"start":14578.886,"end":14600.489,"text":"這才是民眾現在最關心的台灣現在出現的是什麼台電虧損 人民一直被漲電價然後人民納稅錢一起補結果呢 台電跌倒 銀豹吃飽飽有些些 多少民進黨的 親綠的這個綠能有關的 不管是光電的 風電的它是賺錢的"},{"start":14602.153,"end":14619.726,"text":"所以才會今天討論這個條文我們希望趕快 趕快讓這個電價是降下來的我提醒一個重點我們今天討論了一整個早上民進黨現在好像誤會了一個非常嚴重的點不曉得是故意裝傻還是誤導依照本來的條文你五年 宗教今天沒有修五年你還是可以提示申請啊申請完之後"},{"start":14630.205,"end":14658.996,"text":"我們還是要做安全的這個包括美國學者所有專家學者要進來審查這個機制是在的被民進黨講到這個機制是不行的我再提醒一次就現有的條文本來這個機制就是在的請不要污名化它覺得它是不行的第二個今天的修正重點是什麼只是把這個時間申請的時間提早向台灣民眾黨把五年希望變成是"},{"start":14661.822,"end":14682.64,"text":"一個月到半年 只把這個時間提早了可是尋的還是現有長久以來的審查機制啊專家寫者還是要進來啊他還是要確定他是安全才能做啊所以請民進黨不要販賣恐懼而且否定我們原來原有這個機制今天經過這樣討論包括剛剛台電的董事長都講"},{"start":14686.872,"end":14700.278,"text":"不要把電價跟這個核能掛鉤可是民眾看得清清楚楚啊你把核一 核二 核三廢掉五月二十五月十七號核三廠廢掉之後你是非核加鹽啊沒有錯 現在我們一度電是多少錢三塊多那核電一塊一塊是多少一塊多嘛"},{"start":14707.093,"end":14711.543,"text":"合一合二三加起來400多億度的電啊 乘以2.5左右就是1000億啊這邊是個大黑洞啊一堆黑人在那裡 大家都看得到現在民進黨看不到了"},{"start":14718.596,"end":14739.472,"text":"為什麼民進黨是故意裝傻還是看不懂那你剛剛講 剛剛陳培宇講說核電之外再生能源全世界都在用沒有錯啊 問題是沒有一個國家用像民進黨去買那麼貴的綠電啊你現在去看看我們的綠電的價格是比一般的世界貴了很多"},{"start":14741.308,"end":14757.382,"text":"然後還產生了一堆這個弊案就是因為有兩個這個大的漏洞所以今天在討論這個條文趕快用核電把一千億要回來然後讓人民這個綠電方面不要買那麼貴甚至現在台電自己不是都提出來嗎要減少這個虧損五大策略裡面一個把綠電趕快賣出去啊你就趕快多賣 電價就不用漲啊我最後做一個總結"},{"start":14765.742,"end":14783.668,"text":"請不要汙名化現有的審查機制今天核安會都在這邊各個相關的部會都在這裡相關單位都在這裡這是台灣長久以來經濟發展非常重要的幾個單位他們長久的捍衛我們的安全我們的核一核三到目前在全世界都還算是模範生"},{"start":14784.548,"end":14799.165,"text":"民進黨不要汙名化我們現有的核安會也不要汙名化我們的核一二跟核三他們對台灣是有經濟上很大的貢獻的請不要再繼續汙名化更重要的讓全民在民生方面在電價方面不要受到衝擊讓我們產業發展也不要受到衝擊我們現在發展半導體發展AI不就是要電嗎"},{"start":14804.059,"end":14819.623,"text":"民進黨不要給穩定不要給低廉的健備嗎謝謝好我們謝謝張旗改委員那接下來范雲委員那我們有很多提問如果一樣的話我們是可以盡快讓主委還有相關政府部會單元來回應謝謝范雲委員"},{"start":14824.038,"end":14844.574,"text":"我想藍白的委員一起擁核但是你們對核廢料到底到現在為止是提出了什麼解方今天我覺得奇怪的是台東達人金門烏雀我剛剛一直有講那是已經說出的低階的選址連公投都辦不了是不是請國民黨這兩個都是國民黨的現役委員告訴我們"},{"start":14849.258,"end":14872.74,"text":"就是說這個低階核廢料都沒有辦法處理的話那高階到現在更不用講的話你們的解方到底是什麼提醒大家除了剛剛講的那個國際上的綠能的相關的規定之外倫敦議定書就是倫敦公約等都規定最終不管是低階高階最終的儲置場都必須要在當事國"},{"start":14873.941,"end":14892.575,"text":"你們剛講民調 講公投六成六的台灣民眾不贊成核廢料放在自己的城市請問這是到底要放在哪裡日本到現在其實也一直沒有找到最終處置場"},{"start":14894.657,"end":14922.516,"text":"2023年日本有300多位他們開始評估說是不是要在北海道300多位地球科學家主張日本地質環境不穩定火山地震風險高沒有辦法像北歐一樣的方式去處理核廢料的最終處置那我不知道張祺凱委員你知不知道全球哪裡有最就是高階的核廢料的最終處置場張委員不知道你知不知道高階全球有幾座"},{"start":14925.823,"end":14943.887,"text":"你先回答我給你我的時間給你主席引起了全球 芬蘭都已經有對不對第二個我更要問你了那美國跟日本跟南海為什麼要用還沒找到對啊 他們為什麼用呢為什麼人家都可以用為什麼民進黨不能用呢他至少知道至少知道芬蘭可以繼續講嗎他至少知道97州芬蘭是唯一一個有高階核廢料最親密停止"},{"start":14955.29,"end":14964.454,"text":"他至少知道芬蘭是全球唯一一個有第一個高階核廢料最終處置廠但他不知道人家花了多少年的時間花了50年的時間從溝通選址經歷過公投"},{"start":14970.856,"end":14974.8,"text":"他1983年開始選址規劃這個地方2024年終於去年才落成花費了10億的歐元他是因為地質穩定花崗岩深處地下420公尺"},{"start":14986.713,"end":14990.477,"text":"可是還是有芬蘭人懷疑說那未來的人能不能夠解決這個問題我們在做芬蘭國會外交的時候說他們是經歷過公投公民討論我們剛剛講了我們的低階我們請各位委員坐在法條的討論還有我們行政官員非常辛苦來到現場"},{"start":15008.575,"end":15037.03,"text":"台東選民台東縣長花蓮為什麼都反對連低階的暫時的公投都沒有人家那是高階最終喔就是德國到現在還沒有找到高階的最終處置場德國是全國廢核那法國到現在高階的也沒有完成好不好所以請大家告訴大家法國是輸出國那是他的核能產業台灣是核能產業國嗎"},{"start":15038.45,"end":15039.032,"text":"好那我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":15041.36,"end":15051.444,"text":"那我們希望就因為行政官員很辛苦啦他們在現場要回應大家的問題希望以行政官員為主謝謝謝謝主席當然其他國家的經營我們是可以借鏡可以參考但是怎麼樣都沒有辦法把台灣的地址變成芬蘭的地址好來剛才我有提問就是關於恆春斷城的這個活躍性有沒有進行評估但你沒有回答有但是沒有回答我說我提出來的河山場的安全性"},{"start":15070.692,"end":15078.679,"text":"那也有回答到說多少公里如果是不同的級數多少公里的民眾要撤離大概人數是多少這個你們回答到了那我問到的就是說目前國際上研議的核電廠附近是有斷層的有哪幾個國間有哪幾個核電廠這個你們剛才沒有回答到"},{"start":15091.21,"end":15108.763,"text":"那另外呢我還想知道就是說目前最終處置場的部分呢我們國內為了這個最終處置場我們總共延宕多久過程中我們有曾經有哪幾個選址的地點我們遭遇到有哪些民意的反對那因為前三個禮拜這個"},{"start":15111.987,"end":15137.741,"text":"緬甸泰國的這個大地震其實它是一個很少發生地震的地區但是也竟然發生了這麼嚴重的地震可見就是說我們整個地球的整個環境的變化跟過往是不相同的那緬甸大地震發生之後呢我們中央氣象署及國際地震學者都說了台灣有可能會有連帶的板塊活動那我也想請教說如果發生了同等級的地震規模台灣的核電廠能不能承受"},{"start":15140.362,"end":15154.695,"text":"那其實我們沒有對核電廠汙名化我們也一直非常肯定核一核三的貢獻但如果我們有更好的選擇更安全的做法我們就要朝著安全的目標來前進那原能會"},{"start":15155.456,"end":15164.888,"text":"以前的原能會跟現在的核安委主委齁我相信不管是什麼政府任命他能夠做到這個位置都有他的專業我們都相信他可是他們的專業跟能力並不對核電廠的安全背書啊這是兩件事"},{"start":15171.275,"end":15176.299,"text":"核安會的主管 核安會的成員都非常認真我們信任你們的專業但是這個對核電廠安全與否這是不同的事情那我們擔心的是氣候或者是環境或者是地層的變化對核電廠的這個安全的疑慮這個誰能夠保證這不是核安會的能力再好你們的監督再好能夠保證的因為整個地層整個的環境的變化跟過往是不相同的"},{"start":15199.634,"end":15217.548,"text":"所以我這邊要再一次的問這樣子重要的問題就是關於整個地殼的變動關於整個氣候 極端氣候強風強降雨之下我們從前40年前的這個安全評估建立起來的河山場有沒有辦法面對這樣子的極端的氣候的變遷或者地層的變動 以上"},{"start":15221.711,"end":15248.724,"text":"主席抱歉議事問題我想要建議因為剛剛我也認同你講說應該讓部會多回答可是我們剛剛每個委員大概都有兩到三個問題所以第一輪現在其實二十幾個問題他們其實很難一次回答是不是可以問幾個就請他們先回答因為我第一輪好幾個問題都還沒回答到我們先因為剛剛都已經到張雅玲委員了所以我想我們是不是到接下來吳佩儀委員您提問然後那個我們休息五分鐘然後讓部會也可以準備一下"},{"start":15250.763,"end":15256.953,"text":"吳佩儀委員請對到純秀堡委員之後是吳佩儀委員對"},{"start":15266.747,"end":15280.453,"text":"所以好也許剛剛我們沒看到所以我再講一次那就是詹雅琳委員吳佩儀委員這樣那待會我們吳佩儀委員之後會休息五分鐘那之後是劉書斌委員柯志恩委員林怡錦委員謝謝"},{"start":15281.837,"end":15303.35,"text":"好 謝謝其實我剛有個問題就是說研議如果照評估來說要研議的這個所需要的審查時間到底要多久就是以國際來看一般來說是多少因為我看到有22個月到11年都有如果以我們現在來說一般如果我們現在要研議大家要多少時間重啟大家要多少時間因為現在"},{"start":15305.871,"end":15325.424,"text":"大家一直不停的在講就是說因為AI要發展我們需要電但事實上我們現在到底審查的期限會不會根本緩不及急啦源水救不了近火這樣子第二個部分我也想要請教經濟部我們現在在規劃的一些不管是"},{"start":15326.785,"end":15350.323,"text":"這些綠能的電網等等的我們有沒有算到AI發展所需要的電力這部分可能請待會經濟部來發展一下如果我們現在已經有涵蓋到的話那我們不是如果最重要大家都很在乎AI很希望AI發展我們不就應該要趕快從現行的解決方案來做才對嗎所以待會請何安跟經濟部來回答我這兩個問題謝謝"},{"start":15354.486,"end":15372.339,"text":"抱歉 最後一件事情最後一件事情補充就說其實因為之前朱立文黨主席在當新北市長的時候他曾經一直不停的在重申如果無法處理核廢料憑什麼使用核能只要我擔任市長一天就不會讓核四運轉有核安問題核四就不應該存在"},{"start":15372.879,"end":15395.893,"text":"那剛剛呢 許多要選地方縣市首長的委員呢例如張祺凱委員啦 謝榮介委員啦他們也都不停的在講要以蒼生為念所以我是建議啦他們要不要直接在他們未來要選縣市長的政見裡面講核廢料就放我的縣市以蒼生為念我來處理如果你這麼支持一定要來用核電的話"},{"start":15398.015,"end":15401.477,"text":"好那我們請這個吳佩儀委員那待會休息五分鐘好剛剛我第一輪有一些問題還沒有回答到那首先第一個是依照我想請何安慧回答依照我們現行的法規條文若要演繹必須要"},{"start":15416.284,"end":15419.665,"text":"提前5年之前來申請那我們是依據什麼樣的考量認為是需要5年的時間是相關的安全標準有沒有參考國際的標準等等那因為現在今天不會是沒有版本的不會是沒有版本的"},{"start":15432.529,"end":15445.336,"text":"那就代表我們部會認為現行條文的運作就足以來也足夠才有足夠的安全的把關但是現在在野黨提出來的版本有要把時間縮短到一個月"},{"start":15448.018,"end":15454.384,"text":"半年然後甚至有根本沒有期限的就前一天就可以來提出這樣的擔憂會不會影響到未來在安全審查上面的這個把關這是第一點就是核安會目前的現行條文五年之前這是參考什麼樣的標準那第二個剛剛核安會說明說因為核安會是主管機關台電是執行單位"},{"start":15470.06,"end":15472.182,"text":"就是說未來倘若這個法真的通過導致於核三還有研議的可能那台電如果做了內部的評估要來向我們核安會申請的時候是不是要包括剛剛核安會說明說要包括可行性安全性的評估那這個當中是不是有包含乾除設施"},{"start":15490.72,"end":15515.276,"text":"的興建計畫是不是也包含在你的可行性跟安全性當中那為什麼問這個問題因為其實今天在逐條之前在上次的詢答當中依據台電的回答河山廠如果要來研議然後這個乾除設施還必須要先經過地方政府的同意然後還有工程等等至少至少七年是最低起跳的七年是最低起跳所以今天就算這個修法通過"},{"start":15516.997,"end":15540.171,"text":"要能夠放寬然後重新核三廠要來評估要不要研議的話那至少是要七年以上才有可能使用而且那還是在核安會的審查有通過的情況下都有可能台電停出但是核安會審查沒有過所以這個時間的成本燈會也要請台電再來說明最後剛剛我有請台電來說明我們現在核一核二核三廠廚藝的現況為何"},{"start":15543.553,"end":15569.405,"text":"好然後再來的問題是最後一個問題是我們河山廠啊倘若未來要評估演繹的話我們關鍵的核心要問的還是我們的燃料池夠放嗎按照我們現在河山廠燃料池儲存的這個狀況你們評估還可以再儲存幾年好謝謝因為我們今天到目前為止都還沒有休息我們就先休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":15593.711,"end":15596.694,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":15601.963,"end":15616.234,"text":"他花了五十年才確定我們連高放的場址都做不出來是因為我們的地址變更大而且我們連地階的都沒有人要收啊所以才會放在那裡因為日本多大台灣多大對咩安地俠人說這裡經過幾年"},{"start":15628.843,"end":15639.21,"text":"我信不起一次耶老公我真的受不了了,我好餓喔怎麼辦?有沒有便當啊?沒有便當喔?對啊,還是要休息長一點對啊,沒便當一點耶好餓喔"},{"start":16388.697,"end":16413.687,"text":"好請劉淑冰委員好謝謝主席我剛才在第二輪還是第一輪的時候有提到一個問題因為核安會還是沒有回答就是說關於重視核安的話那個核安三法有沒有現行的行政院版本他提出來修法這部分有沒有時程表那有的話那是什麼樣的內容"},{"start":16420.582,"end":16440.738,"text":"民眾黨是把它當作過渡性的能源在於再生能源如果沒有辦法達到目前政府所說到的情況之下包括它是一個間歇性能源不能作為基站能源它必須要有儲能設備達到搭配的情況之下才能夠作為一個可以永續發展的能源所以我必須再這樣講"},{"start":16441.599,"end":16460.685,"text":"第二部分我們剛才看到的是再生能源的部分就是台電有提到它的一個費用我們可以看到在目前的資料當中全世界在做比較的時候台灣它作為還是以化石能性能源最多的時候目前的再生能源大概就11點多%的情況之下"},{"start":16463.126,"end":16478.894,"text":"他的這個購電成本就是已經讓台電虧損了但事實上這個虧損是一直就有的但是我們最近又看到了這連續三年以來台電的這個購電成本當中再生能源他自己發的再生能源當中是2.34塊是還算好但是在"},{"start":16482.376,"end":16492.121,"text":"在外買的這個電費的再生能源當中呢是5.81塊 一度是5.81塊那如果從111年 112年 13年這個情況之下它事實上就從4.75塊一直到5.46塊我重點是在於說台電的購電成本它有購那當然有它的賣出去賣出去就是我們現在的電價大概是2點多塊可是它的購電成本的情況都是在以剛剛我說的那個情況"},{"start":16509.511,"end":16530.294,"text":"都是高於的尤其是購買的成本是這五點多塊的情況之下是不是雖然我也知道是再生能源是有短購的價格短購二十年的情況那這個在已經有條約的情況是不是可以在我們已經看到的是再生能源很多的是現在有發生弊案那弊案呢又其包括說它再生能源那麼高是不是可以考慮在"},{"start":16531.99,"end":16550.242,"text":"買跟他購電的這個情況是屬於民間的業者他適時在合理成本之下要求他調降要供給時間就算利潤的合理的情況要達到這部分我想要去請大家知道因為你購電成本這麼高的話就是沒辦法降尤其是我們的補貼是本來就有而且現在看起來是你要針對問題去解決這部分請台電部分要提供一個合理的這個可能性是如何試著要去提"},{"start":16558.547,"end":16574.178,"text":"體恤民眾的所苦甚至我們可以看到是台電在所有的全世界我們不是採取核能的我們不是我們並不是產能源的最主要的國家但是我們的這個電費不管是民生用電或工業用電都是在全世界第三第四便宜的"},{"start":16575.158,"end":16603.725,"text":"這種情況是合理嗎但是事實上就是討論到這個購電成本把它降掉我就要把它理解起來那另外的一個情況是說想要再問的是核安會就是或是說核安的這個研究所這邊可以提出來就是說到底我們在討論在核能安全的情況因為民眾黨一直提到的是要在核能安全條件無比的情況才做那這個部分尤其是我們提到的是"},{"start":16604.665,"end":16625.013,"text":"一個 我們是針對一到六個月提出的那是因為過去民進黨他在 他是一致性政府的情況當然他就他不會有提到他當然非核家園可是現在是我們面臨到這個問題是在於說提供一個可能性因此包括是一到六個月是目前現在台灣在面對台核三的這個第二場核二場 核三的"},{"start":16627.054,"end":16637.026,"text":"第二個基礎所遇到的問題我們提出來實時在面對問題更重要的是如果主管機關他也跟著做如果借企的其實他也可以提出來我們是希望說針對這部分呢好好的把這樣的一個和安的這個標準弄出來之後才去做他在這個研議的部分所以民眾黨特別要請大家知道他是在因應"},{"start":16646.858,"end":16657.343,"text":"再生能源條件還不足的時候他做一個研議核電做一個再過渡性能源的一個需求那就請那個環安會或是他相關的研究機構對於說到底要什麼強項去做說個說明謝謝好謝謝劉素冰委員那我們請柯志恩委員"},{"start":16668.173,"end":16692.748,"text":"刚刚所有的委员的确是发出非常多的问题我想不管是河安会或是台电可能目前都在做一个准备我还是回应到我刚刚在质询台上面所提到的我说实在的主委您是回公背井的可是你刚刚我们被问到的时候你都说你没有办法做成决议然后台电当然也特别提到了依法上你们是执行的单位所以你们是依法来做事对不对"},{"start":16693.388,"end":16707.816,"text":"那很显然我们所提到刚才委员每个人所说到的这个安全的问题一个是执行做事一个是也没有办法现在告诉我们要如何来评估所以我们这样讨论再讨论到五点钟下去我不晓得结果会是什么样子所以说呢"},{"start":16708.656,"end":16723.007,"text":"回應到這個部分裡面到底等一下我加一個問題好了到底誰可以來做一個你們的專家小組我剛特別提到了和安會沒有發函請行政院再次召開第七次的小組的會議你們有沒有機會可以來做這樣一個事情"},{"start":16723.607,"end":16745.988,"text":"由行政院的这个所谓的专家小组真正涵盖不同的专家小组里面对于我们刚所提到的这些问题来做一个彻底的说法否则的话每个人提出问题来不管是断层问题不管是海啸问题或者有些人认为说基本上有很多人提出他过去来说是很有这个安全性的这个部分"},{"start":16746.348,"end":16770.996,"text":"我们永远在这个地方去做一个打转如果你真的要去提的话那我也可以加一个问题啊比如说我们现在是我们这个能源50%的天然气的一个配比目前它的负载量已经超出了它的超载量然后我们这个有关于这个扩建这个储存槽的问题有谁愿意在它的现实里面做这个扩建储存槽的问题这跟核飞的问题是一样嘛"},{"start":16771.596,"end":16785.06,"text":"所以我個人覺得以這個問題來說如果核安會沒有辦法做出任何一個安全的部分是否可以透過行政院發函請行政院然後呢召開核安小組裡面然後給我們一個更準確的一個評估否則沒完沒了我們也不曉得我們這邊要到什麼樣的程度這個中心是我們耗在這邊講到五點鐘八點鐘大家還是各自的方法然後呢我們的兩個兩大主管單位還是告訴我你沒有辦法評估"},{"start":16800.185,"end":16811.39,"text":"你沒辦法做決定然後另外告訴我我們只是依法來做執行單位那我不曉得我們坐在這邊在幹什麼所以說呢我覺得這個部分裡面透過更高層次的人告訴我最後的一個定向到哪裡我覺得這是比較能夠解決的方法啦謝謝柯市長委員我們請林益錦召委"},{"start":16822.023,"end":16837.218,"text":"謝謝主席 我想剛講那麼多那我們就不妨來聽聽核三廠所在地的屏東縣政府怎麼說屏東縣政府今天知道我們教委會要審查這個核電廠營業的條文那特別傳了訊息來跟我表達他們的看法"},{"start":16837.899,"end":16855.783,"text":"屏東縣政府強調非核家園是台灣的國家政策目標這個目標就明文規定在環境基本法第二三條和經濟部能源發展綱領中屏東縣政府也說會尊重且全力配合中央的能源政策並將持續推動綠能產業和能源永續發展"},{"start":16860.184,"end":16886.349,"text":"這個月初 核三廠傳出火警當時現場冒出濃濃的黑煙在地民眾都非常擔心可以說一旦核電廠有任何的風吹草動大家都很緊張再次請教在場的各位委員你們所在的縣市願意承擔任何的核安風險嗎拜託請大家聽聽在地政府的心聲己所不欲 勿施於人"},{"start":16887.529,"end":16909.919,"text":"我想剛剛柯支援委員也有提到這件事情有哪個縣市願意讓大家來承擔這樣的風險嗎那所以我想今天也談了那麼多那當然我們要請這個河岸會跟台電來再進一步做說明所以我們今天演繹那麼多的這個風險那麼多的不確定性還有我們所關心的核廢"},{"start":16911.874,"end":16928.642,"text":"研議越久 核廢越多這是不爭的事實嘛那核廢沒辦法處置那這個是問題那為什麼要研議都沒有辦法處置那核廢越來越多那這樣的一個能源發展的政策"},{"start":16929.702,"end":16939.255,"text":"當然是要否定他嘛當然要尋求其他的能源發展政策嘛因為這條路是行不通所以我想這個大家深思的問題也是今天我們面對這個核官法最嚴肅的問題以上"},{"start":16960.029,"end":16982.668,"text":"好我們謝謝我們剛剛的發言那發言完畢那這個主席因為我還有一些問題要問那是要先請部會先回答我等會再提問好先回應一下好剛剛柯市長委員還有這個民進黨委員都有一些提問您可不可以明確的簡短回應我因為這很多問題要回答"},{"start":16989.628,"end":17017.223,"text":"首先剛剛委員問研議要到了這個知道到期前5年要提出申請這原因是研議是要花時間準備就是台電要花很多時間來準備這些資料然後我們評估這個安全要不要研議呢是要花時間的"},{"start":17019.546,"end":17036.275,"text":"因為當初立法意旨是無縫接軌40年之後就繼續在運轉並不是中間不停的所以要5年前就要申請而我們河岸會呢就是當年原子能委員會也可能要退回"},{"start":17037.898,"end":17059.913,"text":"退回补建甚至不预核准等等可能性都有所以要花很多时间来处理这事情才有办法做到无缝接轨当年立法一直是这样现在呢今年5月17号河山场2号机之后都到齐了"},{"start":17061.212,"end":17090.025,"text":"那時候就必須停機沒有其他的方法必須停機這是我們法律所規定的必須停機如果要申請的話也要台電做好準備多久我不知道看台電準備的程度而定我們審查時間多久我也不知道要看情況而定而且要多少那個"},{"start":17091.708,"end":17101.156,"text":"零件要更換多少核安措施要強化這些都要經過品質估而且需要時間當然需要經費關於核安三法修法的時程表好像兩年前我們曾經提過"},{"start":17121.414,"end":17142.22,"text":"有發函過等一下我們再請你再發言等一下我也請有關地震等等請我們河岸管制組跟"},{"start":17149.671,"end":17154.737,"text":"核物料管制組來兩位組長來給我們說明一下現在請高組長給我們的"},{"start":17166.091,"end":17184.363,"text":"有關於委員關心的恆春斷城對河山場的影響那在2009年中央地教所公布恆春斷城是第二類活動斷城的時候當時候河安委就要求台電公司就是要進行地質調查跟耐震補強那後續就是進入"},{"start":17187.746,"end":17214.108,"text":"2011年日本輔導的時候核安衛就是參考美國核管會的做法要求台電公司就是剛才有提到要參考美國核電廠執行SHECK的程序來針對核三廠的安全停機系統進行耐震強化那可以達到的強度那如果以氣象署的分類最大震度7級那至少可以達到7級以上"},{"start":17215.826,"end":17230.197,"text":"另外有關於核安會當時候現行的核管法申請換照所需要的時間至少要執照到期前5到15年這部分當時候是參考美國核管會的做法"},{"start":17230.757,"end":17248.419,"text":"那主要考量是說核安會在審查台電公司如果他提出申請案核安會本身所需要的審查時間那另外核安會會提出一些審查意見那台電公司必須要進行答覆那答覆完之後核安會也要進行審查確認"},{"start":17249.6,"end":17263.676,"text":"另外也要考量說台電公司要有充裕的時間在執照到期前完成設備的檢查跟更新那主要就回到剛才主委所說的就是在執照到期的時候可以持續的運轉"},{"start":17265.539,"end":17290.763,"text":"另外以目前機組來看,審查所需要的時間確實各國的審查經驗所需要的時間也不盡相同目前國內機組如果要研議換照的話主要還是要看台電公司辦理一些安全評估、設備的檢查、更新當然也要顧慮到新建乾除設施所需要的時程"},{"start":17291.417,"end":17301.048,"text":"那整個都要通過河岸會的安全審查跟現場查證那這部分會依照機組的狀況不同所以所需要的時間確實不容易估"},{"start":17303.575,"end":17331.506,"text":"國外的核電廠如果我們用美國加州位在加州的魔鬼谷核電廠它的臨近場址有兩條斷層就我們所知道的話最近的距離大概有三四百公尺就是離場區目前魔鬼谷核電廠在2023年再次向美國核管會申請研議目前美國的核管會還在審查當中以上說明"},{"start":17340.287,"end":17351.452,"text":"各位委員報告一下有關核廢料的相關議題那剛才許多委員都追尋到有關幹室儲存議題那幹室儲存是這樣那目前國內核一廠已經儲存6874宿核二廠10868宿核三廠3785宿那目前核一廠的室外幹儲"},{"start":17366.961,"end":17376.74,"text":"將來運轉後它可以儲放1680宿台電公司已經在今年的1月20提出建造資料申請"},{"start":17377.95,"end":17397.015,"text":"那本會也在審理中那台電公司預計是申請雖然是申請40年不過我們規劃只會核准20年最長一來是將來可能要積極地督促台電公司將這個整個室外乾儲的核衛料將來把它搬到室內乾儲"},{"start":17398.095,"end":17421.666,"text":"那二廠的甘蠢台丁公司也今年開始動工興建那我們也定期來做執行檢查整個後續台丁公司會接的是四年甘蠢那四年甘蠢一二廠台丁公司在網路上都有發布訊息他們目前已經在招標作業中那河山廠的部分也進行文件的公告閱覽"},{"start":17426.137,"end":17429.326,"text":"處置的部分 跟各位委員補充一些國際的資訊剛才有委員提到"},{"start":17434.761,"end":17459.315,"text":"目前幾個發展 先進國家發展有進度的國家芬蘭在2021年的12月提出運轉執照那2024年的8月進行試運轉那目前還在持續進行高放除資設施的試運轉它的主管機關已經決定延遲審查期限到今年12月最快 今年12月才會通過"},{"start":17460.916,"end":17488.878,"text":"瑞典的部分2022年的1月合法建造執照2025年開始興建興建完後續還是要經過試運轉跟運轉執照的申請法國是在2023年的1月提出建造執照建造執照目前在審查中國內因為經濟部最近也有成立專案辦公室準備來解決高放處置選址的一個立法的工作"},{"start":17489.935,"end":17509.677,"text":"另外剛才有委員也提到了政府對於核廢料那成立了非核家園的這件事情那也跟各位委員說明一下非核家園其實在106年3月行政院審核通過非核家園設置要點"},{"start":17510.618,"end":17524.434,"text":"那小組召集人由永續會的執行長來兼任那河南會只是成員之一那其中也包括眾多部會衛福部、人民會、經濟部、環境部、內政部等等還有學者專家、民間團體"},{"start":17525.715,"end":17550.468,"text":"那在這期間 其實也進行了六次的會議那因為委員一直長期關切這個議題所以本會在111年 應該是在111年的時候也曾經函請那個會合加人小組能夠來召開會議那後續那個會合加人小組會合加人專案推動小組在"},{"start":17551.969,"end":17574.395,"text":"那個113年的5月8號召開了第7次的工作小組會議那台電公司在現場在當天有報告核電廠廚藝中級戰術設施的一個推動相關議題我們也了解到委員關切議題所以也會再來思考後續的作業以上說明 謝謝簡短 謝謝"},{"start":17580.123,"end":17581.644,"text":"整理&字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":17604.861,"end":17617.416,"text":"那剛才也有委員提到第七次河南會議的部分主委要不要回應一下對第七次河南會議請主委因為這個是你們也可以請行政院來開會嘛"},{"start":17619.271,"end":17642.743,"text":"這是依法需要做這件事情,已經四年沒開了,好不好?我跟委員說明,我們是確實可以發函,不過我講過我們只是一個眾多成員之一沒關係,你們把函發出去,壓力是由行政院來,你就可以起碼告訴我因為它其實有非核小組啊,的確是有非核小組啊你們像四年你們擺在那個地方,然後四年都沒有,然後到時候每個人都要罵你們何安何必呢?對不對?"},{"start":17643.923,"end":17651.448,"text":"這本來就是依法 本來就是要發函然後怎麼樣再召開 何時召開我們就會再來追嘛 對不對你們可不可以做到這件事因為這樣才有辦法得到更深層的有關於安全 大家所安全的顧慮啊否則你們這邊繞過來繞過去我都聽不到也不敢講到底安不安全你們都不敢講第四級單位真的是辛苦你們了本來還有第三線到第四你們能夠做什麼決議 好不好你們就做這樣的一個動作然後由上面來看看怎麼樣"},{"start":17668.379,"end":17689.864,"text":"因為我們還有一些什麼氣候變遷的小組啊還有很多都是跟這個環環相扣嘛一定可以收集更多專家學者的意見嘛不用讓你們河岸會來這邊也把我們耗在這個地方啊真的完全沒有辦法所以可不可以發函我們可以 還不可以好 謝謝那最後那個剛剛吳佩奕委員好像有各自一個簡短的好不好經紀辦沒有回答我對 那就麻煩吳佩奕委員你要不要先講一下你的問題"},{"start":17699.672,"end":17711.948,"text":"剛剛委員有提到說我們的用電的需求沒有考慮到未來其實我們有包括AI還有半導體的用電需求我們每年都有在做滾動檢討我們現在目前推測2024到2028年"},{"start":17715.652,"end":17726.099,"text":"每年用電量大概會成長2.5%那以去年來講當然就是符合我們的推測值大概2.5%那未來大家會擔心說電夠不夠用其實我們這個去"},{"start":17733.683,"end":17761.355,"text":"算說廚藝的那個燃煤的機組跟新增的燃氣機組我們這樣統計起來的話2032年新增的燃氣機組可以增加1636萬千瓦的這個用電所以我們可以保證到2032年的這個用電事實上是沒有匱乏的所以你說到2032年我們已經有估算到半導體跟AI所需要的電是沒有問題的對嗎是這樣子好謝謝"},{"start":17763.882,"end":17789.233,"text":"好 那吳佩儀委員要不要簡短提問好 其實我剛剛有想要請台電可以說明現在我們三個核電廠處理的現況那但是我現在是我想要說的是其實剛剛柯志恩委員要求說要在開完召開這個核安會議那希望有對於安全有更多更完整的討論"},{"start":17791.195,"end":17810.009,"text":"那我也同意啊如果我們要討論安全的話今天其實現場的說明是不足以讓我們確保未來的把關是安全無虞的而在我們剛剛不管是核安會還是台電的說明當中我認為我們今天至少可以確認一件事因為當初在野黨有些委員提出修法的時候是希望核三廠"},{"start":17810.649,"end":17835.178,"text":"在這個屆期滿之前如果這個法律方寬的話有沒有機會在屆期之前就提出這個換照的研議的申請然後得到換照但是按照我們剛剛確認的幾個事實就是說他審查需要時間即便是按照現在民眾黨的版本一個月到六個月前向核安會提出他審查也沒有辦法在核三廠屆期之前就審查完成"},{"start":17838.599,"end":17845.104,"text":"所以我是認為我同意可以討論但是我們不需要急著在今天對於剛剛大家也都認為說今天我們對於未來這個修法通過到底安全把關要包含哪些我們今天沒有獲得到充足的資訊我是反對在今天倉促的把它送出委員會我覺得對委員會成員之一來講會覺得這樣很不負責任"},{"start":17858.277,"end":17872.606,"text":"那我們也同意要更多的討論那既然現在已經很明確了你不可能在今天通過之後就在河山場到期之前通過換照這是不可能的事情現實就是如此我覺得今天真的不宜倉促初委員會我們可以再繼續討論好 謝謝"},{"start":17876.048,"end":17887.181,"text":"好謝謝吳佩儀委員我想今天這個剛剛你也說了有更多的討論那我想這個今天這個議案在第六條的部分我們目前是沒有共識的"},{"start":17891.625,"end":17900.629,"text":"呃好可以這樣我我這邊您您檢你是要提向官員提問嗎因為我剛剛的問題他們還是沒有回答我就是對翁小林委員還有張其凱委員的造謠我覺得還是要以正視聽沒有這個我們都有記錄抱歉陳培委員因為我想剛剛我們也聽到官員都說台電說是遵法單位那主委也對於這個法條"},{"start":17913.015,"end":17939.597,"text":"主席不好意思我剛剛問的不是法條的內容我剛剛問的是實際上他們在說不管是電價的數字它的務用還有關於扣門的會議剛剛台電回答了台電董事長剛剛回答了對我在二輪發言的時候我再問一次他們沒有把相關的數字說出來台電董事長有沒有簡短的我剛剛是聽您已經回答了對可以再講一次我們從這邊發言"},{"start":17942.519,"end":17968.076,"text":"我把過去已經做過的說明都跟委員再說明一次首先第一件事情就是關於核電的定義現在全世界大概比較清楚有比較多人討論的大概就是上一次各位委員講的那就是一個永續融資的那一個標準那它有兩個是第一個原則上它是針對兩個部分在說說一是核能廚藝的相關條件要達成"},{"start":17971.698,"end":17978.663,"text":"這是確實有的第二個就是它針對你的期限就是新機組是什麼樣的狀況研議機組是什麼樣的時間它是針對這兩個但反而它都是否一個目標就是這樣子的條件達成的時候是符合金融機構融資的許可的條件我想說這是一件事那大家怎麼樣去研議它我想也不是我能夠說明的第二個事情我特別要那個"},{"start":18001.898,"end":18030.217,"text":"台电的网站公布了我们的再生能源发电的成本以及我们购电的成本我回去我会把我们的网站做一点改进我把我们每个不同的元素的成本都把它分开标好了因为台电现在一篮子标因为我们有那个很早期现在已经18年的陆玉丰电那个成本很低就一块多那个大概是现在成本最低的再生能源了"},{"start":18031.414,"end":18060.265,"text":"那我想這邊要做會跟各位做一些說明那至於核電我最後跟委員報告一件事情就是說我們有說過就是他大概對電價的影響大概是0.1元0.11到0.12左右這個已經長期有一直在說明但是研議以後會怎麼樣就不確定為什麼因為研議要花多少錢我現在無法回答各位他現在是以折舊攤提已經完成的狀況下他還是有部分要去攤提"},{"start":18061.923,"end":18075.168,"text":"和後端的成本的涉算的前提下才會有那我這樣講這個就是具體的內容跟各位做報告好謝謝那我想我們本案這第六條的部分我想這個有沒有"},{"start":18078.379,"end":18106.01,"text":"有沒有共識那如果沒有共識我們這邊有一個提案啦就建議第六條呢我們是不是就停止討論因為我們真的已經有非常多充分的發言那第六條只針對第六條那第六條停止討論那第六條含修正動議保留後送院會協商處理好不好那是否有當敬請公決提案人謝榮介林沛翔羅廷偉葛如君好有沒有異議"},{"start":18107.711,"end":18115.296,"text":"好那我們好謝謝好那我們就是否我們就請議事人員清查在場出席人數"},{"start":18118.103,"end":18144.106,"text":"那是先這個還是先剛剛那個討論那是先好那剛剛民進黨這裡有針對何志凡核管法第6條條文之宣就是我們剛剛講第6條表示意義要求點名表決我們先針對這一點提案提案人林一錦委員范雲委員陳秀寶委員張雅玲委員吳佩奕委員郭育琴委員那我想我們就請議事人員清查在場人數我們先做"},{"start":18144.867,"end":18163.046,"text":"要求點名表決的這個表決 舉手表決在場14位 那贊成這個要求點名表決 贊成者請舉手好 贊成7票 反對者請舉手"},{"start":18168.376,"end":18190.875,"text":"好可否同署金主席裁決不通過那我們就繼續用這個舉手表決那我們來看這個剛剛所提的案由這個建議停止討論的這個案由那第6條第6條含羞震動以保留後送院會協商處理那贊成者請舉手好贊成者7票反對者請舉手"},{"start":18203.444,"end":18221.78,"text":"好 反對者7票那可否同署經主席裁決通過送院會這個協商處理那今天因為許委員所提的版本因為許委員不在場我們就保留在本會定期審查那關於今天會議做的協議如下"},{"start":18222.641,"end":18247.731,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關尤其是我們剛提到的第七次核安會議還有我們很多民進黨委員提的問題也都希望能夠儘速的以書面答覆那核子反應器設施管制法修正草案核管法修正草案除了徐信義委員的提案版本以外已全部審查完略那第六條我們剛剛有決議是還有修正動力交協商"},{"start":18251.593,"end":18273.749,"text":"那須交由黨團協商並按擬據審查報告提起院會討論院會討論時由各召集委員如均補充說明那為及包含許委員提案為及審查部分令定期繼續審查那報告我們會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":18285.168,"end":18297.71,"text":"然後還不敢表決不敢那個最主要是不敢記名表決敢做不敢當啊敢做不敢當啊"},{"start":18348.635,"end":18348.675,"text":"鮮奶油"},{"start":18368.538,"end":18375.067,"text":"敢做不敢當連續三次不復而安不復而安不復而安敢做不敢當連續三次"}]}},{"id":"159830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e552361634428a595e34c8d3588d9758e6e1db7d7bda07fb9c80161a9ac653e9315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:12:06 - 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,託費給算了,"},{"start":130.638,"end":134.08,"text":"如果把他拖垮了,二孔五孔精靈拖白了,再把他解散了,父靈可以說是非常非常珍貴,非常非常般苛,可以說是讓我們整個人類對這個地球,付出這個靈。"},{"start":147.268,"end":173.136,"text":"婦人不是天花飛來的婦人存在這個地球數百萬年啊所以啊,我們只要人類用科技、科學、信用婦人可以幫助大家婦人可以提搬婦人可以創造恢復的家庭依靠她還可以創造人類幸福的生活當然,安全不可忽略"},{"start":174.332,"end":195.121,"text":"要怎麼安全?那些專家、學者、老人這麼多,不聽他們的意見,他們有領略改革,讓他們政敵打壓,他們還要派社工委,點點不出聲,我認為這是台灣的損失。所以台灣人,不以蒙主揮霍,我們有很多很好的科學家,我們有很好的工程管理,"},{"start":196.101,"end":207.609,"text":"別人做得到,我們也做得到,不能一直跟台灣倒退路我感覺大家正常、理性來面對這個問題,該安全就安全,該贏就贏不能為了要賺太多高級的利潤,一個政黨、一個派出生日二十幾間公司煮飯後十萬變成一個八千萬,四年多而已,錢都退回去"},{"start":220.097,"end":225.399,"text":"要補台電的 一千 兩千 三千繼續補說我們一千億補他 他就不會給我們企業 別再拖下去了我們過去補他三百一千億 他給我們企業企四百各位鄉親 你們聽得懂嗎一百一千億再補他 哇 好事 他反正會給你企有什麼企 不可以怪台電的 因為靈魂 政策 偏差我們現在不過是 米霧丟霧 把這個放進去 並不是今天要處理啊"},{"start":248.206,"end":264.142,"text":"老總統說的 必要的時候要我告訴你 台灣市民都害了兩國這麼緊張萬一啟動 危險的時候我告訴你 你如果沒福利就對了你就真的參加沒福利的時候了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5044a8e9510d87f1534c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00f94885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:15:12 - 09:19:01","影片長度":"00:03:49","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 委員許宇甄等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-31","start_time":"2025-03-31T09:15:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-31T09:19:01+08:00","duration":229,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.00971875,"end":2.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.26659375,"end":27.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.97596875,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.93096875,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.73409375,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.45971875,"end":228.13034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.035,"end":25.471,"text":"好謝謝非常感謝我想本席核子反應器設施管制法修法的重點有三點第一點現行的核管法第六條將核電廠的換照期限授權主管機關也就是核安會以行政命令的方式訂定那他在這個核子反應器設施運轉執照申請"},{"start":28.203,"end":55.318,"text":"和審核辦法的第16條當中有規定經營者也就是台電需於運轉執照有效借滿前5到15年提出申請那這顯然呢是沒有辦法解決我國核電廠所面臨的問題那先前已經有非常多的機組陸續關機核三廠的二號機將在5月17號停機那因此我們期望"},{"start":57.299,"end":71.213,"text":"討論進行修法將它改為有效期間借滿錢皆可提出研議申請而這樣的一個需求在各國的核電的法規以及實務的執行上也都已經逐步開始在落實"},{"start":72.981,"end":98.019,"text":"第二點核電廠如須研議現行的法規需待經營者也就是台電提出換照申請以後核安會才會進行各項的安全評估然而核安會身為我國核能安全的專責機關理應掌握核電廠各項設備的狀況因此修法賦予核安會主動評估的權利如果核電廠保存狀況良好"},{"start":99.48,"end":119.62,"text":"在核安会确认安全无虞以及它的安全性可被确认以后应可自动研议20年使其有效期限达60年有鉴于第三点有鉴于核二厂以及核三厂的一号机已经停机依现行法规将无启用之手段"},{"start":120.721,"end":142.454,"text":"為因應國際環境變遷緩解我國用電壓力增進我國的能源安全、國家安全、國防安全以及經濟的發展之需求修法是以停機之核電廠在經核安會確認其安全性以後得申請再運轉執照"},{"start":144.95,"end":172.798,"text":"在此也分享我们检视核电厂研疫的情况法国有56座运转中的反应炉平均寿命超过38年其中20座的反应炉运转都已经超过了40年截至2024年的5月份美国已经有96座的反应炉通过延长使用执照审查并且已经有66座进入了延长运转"},{"start":173.678,"end":198.143,"text":"可以在执照到期以后再继续使用20年其中又有22座反应炉提出执照更新申请若通过核管会也就是美国核管会的审查可以再延续再多20年等于是总共80年那已经有6座反应炉通过审查台湾的反应炉的设计跟美国反应炉一样"},{"start":199.537,"end":227.825,"text":"既然美国大多数的反应炉可以研疫,我们也希望台湾的反应炉能够研疫。在过程当中,经过台电,经过核安会,我们非常多的专业的人员持续的维护我们的核电运转的安全,到目前为止也可显见安全无虞。如果我们能够进行研疫,确实的来进行安全的检测,持续完善的维护,相信可以确保核电厂的安全性。以上,谢谢。"}]}},{"id":"159771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e55a7887eaaf12c1da34c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00f686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:09:55 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2030的這個公告他確保了在安全的前提下注意喔是安全的前提下呢延長所有可能延長的核質反應爐的這個服役期間那我國呢應該參酌其他"},{"start":143.408,"end":167.429,"text":"國家核電廠演繹的情況修法以緩解能源結構配比失當所造成的危害第二點我們所看到是核三廠目前在運作的一號期是在一一三年的七一月會到期已經到期現行的法規當中將要換發執照申請的旗艦授權核安會以行政命令的方式去進行"},{"start":168.971,"end":184.189,"text":"並規定在執照屆滿前五年即應提出換照 實有未當那因為這個時間可能有不同的考量但是重要的是我們提出了增修第二項就是在第六條第二項部分將本法關於執照屆期前"},{"start":188.761,"end":209.44,"text":"應於主管機關在規定的期限內申請換發執照的規定修正為應於執照有限有效期間屆滿一個月至六個月的時間內向主管機關申請經主管機關確認核子反應設施安全無虞時的換發執照以放寬"},{"start":212.582,"end":227.247,"text":"換照的申請期間那每次的換照有效運轉期間呢以10年為限那這個部分就是說也是必須要以核安為重點的考量那為避免呢我們的法規受限制於"},{"start":228.428,"end":234.776,"text":"導致政府上司調節能源供應配比的手段我們也新增了第三項規定使運轉執照於已建滿的核電廠得與主管機關確認核磁反應爐"},{"start":243.288,"end":258.117,"text":"核子反應器設施安全無虞後呢再申請運轉執照那這部分也是因應到我們的核三廠的二號機到五月份的時候可能就執照到期但是如果現在的這個法令是沒辦法已經已經不在"},{"start":260.458,"end":274.328,"text":"是五年之前這樣子做這樣的一個決定那當然也是因為台灣的目前的這個能源配比當中有了相當大的一個並沒有達到目前的一個需求尤其是供電的需求更重要的是還要考慮到淨零碳排的一個趨勢好就謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"159770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e51b0f8f10309fbbee34c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00f09fd7804f724e0895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:07:35 - 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全國的好朋友大家早安齁雖然說 味噢中味噢不喝咖啡酒好天 也要吃點好來牛安全是不可怕的"},{"start":35.765,"end":51.418,"text":"不安全就不可能有婚姻,這當然的啊!這郵訂房的課程,還在這裡說得這麼大聲,要安全!羅總統前段時間說的,不排除婚姻的可能,再多使用婚姻!我們今天的修法,就是美惡中謬!萬一很緊急,不可以婚姻的時候,要怎麼做?"},{"start":62.97,"end":90.148,"text":"所以法律要先救援不是今天立法 今天就使用婦人包括婦人的恩怨要經過最起碼要有一千三百項的契機一千三十四百項的漢堡衣装安全契機通過包括他的頭目 鞋帖 機座 穩鑽"},{"start":93.29,"end":97.995,"text":"講什麼 定定可以說是非常非常多的尤其我們的美國大愛已經跟我們說了 不用高興要給我們收聽我們跟這個美國兄哥一起民進黨"},{"start":112.625,"end":131.976,"text":"就吃美國白痴了大汗今天美國大汗已經一、二、三跟你說沒有問題做你安心結果你還在這裡說這麼多安全 安全 再安全今天如果不安全婦人家啟動嗎民進黨撲到他的新竹牌"},{"start":137.748,"end":155.982,"text":"說2025年恢復零,今年5月就達成了可是我站在一個做爸爸的立場,在這裡我反而我的家孫負擔一直加重下去所以你為了這個新珠牌,今年5月已經達成了達到目標,不用再讓我們家農會三年,總共一條白青葉"},{"start":161.144,"end":190.243,"text":"這是最大的一條線所以若是法令可以支援那麼阿扁高級的福田廠我們提出申請不是提出申請就可以繼續運轉的要經過安全的設置我們有關主領委員會還有國際來監督我們有很多學者專家隆重對安全提出保證沒有安全當然沒有核能沒有衝突啦"},{"start":191.923,"end":210.353,"text":"有人說澳明對這個婚姻的看法不一樣 我跟大家報告一下澳明目前對於這個婚姻的行善 他的全生命究極 白鳳蓉比較新的 是有這樣可能 但是他們現在準備"},{"start":211.721,"end":231.308,"text":"要靠著 打敗後的婦人 是不是身為歷典現在在討論中 但風雄是傾向最後的定位是歷典所以後面的苦勢 我們要有理解所有的學者專家也都針對這樣理解你想想 她的打敗 比邵家俗還減了很多"},{"start":235.729,"end":237.733,"text":"一台LNG純六點九萬噸的駕駛進來 都要有二十四萬噸的坦白"},{"start":243.226,"end":270.324,"text":"所以從來我們沒有這樣收銷,我們國的企業會外銷到澳洲到美國到世界各國,只有這個唐水去求你就身份不富了所以做成我們今生的用電生活負擔會增加,做成我們台南這裡的小吃店這麼美好的美食,只有雜貨企業、電子企業,我告訴你,你們要再來我們台南觀光,你們有什麼可能?"},{"start":271.244,"end":282.817,"text":"所以要專貼性來考慮,想蓋收的電,我們不用最主要政府掛箱高潔,太陽能一度要5元人家印度一度電要1元,台日2元,日本2元,香港的3元什麼都是太陽能的熱電,我們買一度,差不多5元"},{"start":292.783,"end":300.31,"text":"這樣比較不會倒 當然會倒啊 最終會扶寧 如果安全今天想法就是說 將來扶寧在安全之下所以我們繼續來推動他的言語也好 心經也好但是如果沒有這個法律來 如果沒有通過這裡"},{"start":310.6,"end":328.267,"text":"你事實上 現在比較成長 比較要放 我跟你講 擴大你會逃不掉那時候全台灣民營的危機 企業的危機 生存的危機 民生的危機 國家的危機包括未來的AI 未來的軍工業 未來的電子炮 頂頂 都要吃電"},{"start":331.772,"end":344.741,"text":"你是要用什麼來對抗中國大陸對我們的壓迫所以有時候最放鬆的、較冷靜的做媽媽的立場跟做爸爸的立場其實是一樣的我們都出自於愛啦謝謝謝榮介委員發言接下來有請張祺凱委員進行發言"}]}},{"id":"159785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e56bc7a98fc66f073434c8d3588d9758e6782ddb04f65b48d2f27cb3eae2286e0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:56:42 - 10:00:43","影片長度":"00:04:01","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 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謝謝主席在剛剛開會之前我們收到了一個國民黨提出來的修正動議我要唸給大家聽因為我相信現在在看線上直播關心這個議題的朋友手上應該沒有這份資料這份資料修正動議提案人林佩祥基隆的立法委員"},{"start":33.053,"end":59.128,"text":"簽這個修正動議的附和的委員有黃建豪葉遠之廖偉祥劉許廷柯之恩委員我想請這些委員回應我你們在簽這個修正動議的時候你們所關心的到底是核廢料還是核安問題還是社會溝通你們都已經找到共識了呢你們跟你們選區的選民都說好了嗎我們來看一下他的修正動議是這樣寫的原本在第六條的寫法是說經營者"},{"start":60.649,"end":73.917,"text":"因於主管機關規定之期限內申請換發執照這句話所對應的意思是在相關的執法當中我來念給大家聽執法所對應的是核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法第16條原來的寫法是核子反應器設施運轉執照有效期間累積達40年仍需繼續運轉者"},{"start":87.525,"end":106.574,"text":"經營者應該在執照有效期間屆滿前5年到15年填具核磁反應器設施運轉執照換照申請書可是在林沛翔委員你的修正動議版本裡面把剛剛主管機關應於規定之期限內這句話改成只要應就可以了"},{"start":107.034,"end":116.501,"text":"也就是應該申請換發執照也就是他認為有這個必要就可以應申請換發執照也就是如果國民黨今天應要強行表決通過這個修正動議就會把5到15年我剛剛所念這個執法的內容給拔掉了"},{"start":122.845,"end":146.384,"text":"也就是說過去你們現在的國民黨主席朱立倫過去的新北市長他所口口聲聲在意的核安、核廢料、社會共識的問題今天所有坐在現場的國民黨委員你們完全不用理會朱主席過去給你們的建議我來唸給大家聽你們可能當時不認識當時的朱主席我也不認識但是我們來所有的資料都會留下記錄"},{"start":147.886,"end":168.699,"text":"2012年的朱立倫說只要我擔任市長一天就不會讓核四運轉沒有核安就沒有核能2013年的朱立倫說如果無法處理核廢料憑什麼使用核能有核安問題核四就不應該存在到了2015年的朱立倫繼續說非核家園是全國共識"},{"start":169.68,"end":183.916,"text":"甚至在2010年到2018年這麼長的時間他擔任新北市長他堅持不核發甘氏儲存廠執照最終導致核二廠提早停機除役"},{"start":185.202,"end":207.75,"text":"我想要請新北的葉元芝委員你今天沒有來但沒有關係我要告訴你曾經葉元芝有來謝謝我要提醒你你也簽了這一份修正道義剛剛所有的國民黨委員你們都簽了你們的黨主席在2010到2018年擔任新北市長所有提出的核安核廢料社會共識你們完全不在意"},{"start":208.61,"end":233.719,"text":"你們可以不用在意你們黨主席我也不在意但是我們在意的是社會共識跟溝通我們在意的是民意如果你們今天要說這個版本 應要強行通過請你們站出來面對全國人民你們如何處理核廢料 核安問題還有社會共識還是你們已經習慣了蠻橫通過所有你們想要通過的東西不用跟全國人民交代不用面對你們的民意也不用面對台灣人的下一代謝謝謝謝陳培鈺委員的發言"},{"start":238.527,"end":240.501,"text":"我們接下來有請謝榮介委員發言"}]}},{"id":"159784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e598b8ac923b26796934c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00ffbc405ee1c6225db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:52:37 - 09:56:37","影片長度":"00:04:00","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 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處在太平洋火山地震帶本來就時常有地震的情形 近年來也更是頻繁的發生規模6以上的淺層地震在核電廠建築本身持續老舊的情況下 造成的安全疑慮也越來越大當初設置核電廠的時候 並沒有評估附近斷層的這些因素考量"},{"start":157.412,"end":160.274,"text":"合一合二陸續發生過反應爐的爐酸斷裂爐心側板裂紋等設備老化的這個問題如果真的要再運轉勢必要經過全盤的大修我們如何能夠確保安全再者"},{"start":172.503,"end":197.924,"text":"全世界只有台灣的核電廠燃料棒使用完畢之後還放在這個燃料池裡面滿儲而將使用過的燃料棒一直放在反應爐心裡面不取出造成核能安全的這些隱憂這也是跟後來這個後續乾式儲存廠的新建延宕中期暫時儲存以及最終儲置廠持續未能有進度有關那在持續的後"},{"start":200.158,"end":222.436,"text":"這些相關的處理沒有辦法取得共識沒有辦法跟地方有溝通的這個共識之前呢我們後續的這個核廢料儲存廠選址沒有辦法能夠得到民眾的這個支持沒有民意的支持我們不能讓核電再運轉我們必須要守護台灣的健康台灣人民的健康我們要守護我們台灣的安全"},{"start":223.857,"end":233.285,"text":"所以我要再次的提醒提案的國民黨委員民眾黨委員政治不能凌駕在安全與專業之前以上謝謝陳秀寶委員的發言接下來有請陳培宇委員進行發言"}]}},{"id":"159783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5282a3dc511c1a8c234c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00f3d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:47:15 - 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現場的各位同仁還有在線上收看轉播的所有台灣的公民我想全台灣人都非常的關注今天我們在立法院所討論的由國民黨及民眾黨委員所提出要修改核管法因為這一次的修法倘若通過"},{"start":37.095,"end":54.921,"text":"將嚴重的影響到台灣未來的安全過去這麼多年來為什麼這麼多台灣人為什麼這麼多在核電廠周遭的民眾站出來要反對核電我們都支持國家的能源永續"},{"start":56.081,"end":75.299,"text":"但是剛剛我也很同意國民黨委員所說我們應當要討論的不是意識形態而是現實那麼我們的現實是什麼現實就是目前台灣截至目前為止我們沒有核廢料的最終處置場即便核一核二廠現在核廢料都還在燃料池當中"},{"start":82.691,"end":86.054,"text":"都還在燃料池當中我們連乾性儲存廠都還非常的困難更不用說最終儲置廠今天國民黨民政黨提出來這個提案的修反內容是什麼呢我跟各位國人報告就是我們現行法規有規範核電廠如果時間到齊了要申請換照原液的話必須要在五年之前"},{"start":108.672,"end":116.034,"text":"按照現行法規 核一核二核三通通都已經不能再申請研議了但是今天這些委員所提案的就是要放水讓現在的核電廠 核三即將要到期的核三能夠有機會再次提出研議這個在安全上會有什麼樣的危險首先我剛剛看了所有這些委員的版本"},{"start":132.259,"end":146.736,"text":"非常負責任啊到底你現在要放水放寬你是要運轉到期的多久之前要提出申請一段的版本都沒有寫邱正俊的版本叫做請事前申請什麼叫事前申請啊"},{"start":149.636,"end":158.402,"text":"我們要講的是核電廠欸安全是可以這樣子忽略的嗎你們是這樣子對待我們國家審查核電廠的安全標準的嗎好然後再來你要延長最多可以延長幾年最多可以延長幾年你們剛剛講了一堆國外的版本大家通常都有提出年限但是今天國民黨做了對委員的版本很多都非常不負責任的連延長的期限都沒寫王宏威的版本沒寫羅志祥的版本沒寫啊"},{"start":180.337,"end":183.479,"text":"所以你們修法只有這樣無限期的延長嗎無限期的延長嗎你們有把安全放在考量之中嗎這樣是負責任的修法嗎這些主席我們上次在詢答的時候就提出來了"},{"start":196.409,"end":203.232,"text":"核廢料要如何處置安全的審查應該包括哪些評估再來大家說要考量現實要考量務實國民黨一再地砍我們給台電的補貼請問有沒有去評估過接下來要重新做這些安全審查的評估包括要送到國際上去審查再來要做耐震補強這些工程包括評估包括補強的工程你們要重啟核三你們要重啟核電廠到底要花多少錢有沒有評估過"},{"start":226.015,"end":228.639,"text":"通常都沒有評估的資料現在就要函修法這是非常不負責任的這才是一個意識形態"},{"start":234.002,"end":241.75,"text":"台灣的現實考量就是我們目前沒有能力處置核廢料我們沒有核廢料最終處置場蓋一個核廢料最終處置場要蓋在哪邊你們有人提議嗎請問在哪一個縣市要花多少錢這些都沒有評估你就要修法去讓核三繼續演繹天大的笑話再來台灣還有什麼現實一定要考量就是民主"},{"start":257.765,"end":262.29,"text":"對中國來講 民主是意識形態對台灣來講 民主就是現實嘛我們在講的都是很務實的事情啊你河山要研議 你有問過屏東人嗎屏東人忍耐多久了現在目前為止 河山廠裡面的燃料棒都還在燃料室裡面而且已經就要滿出來了"},{"start":278.117,"end":285.607,"text":"你要再研議怎麼處理?這人家不想移去哪裡?移到高雄嗎?秋市委員同意嗎?柯市委員同意嗎?要移到哪裡?這就是現實考量嘛!"},{"start":289.761,"end":296.567,"text":"你們要這個核廢料的廚製廠找到哪一個縣市願意來設置嗎這個就是民主 這個就是現實你們要提這個想法之前不得不考量核電廠演繹在台灣的現實沒有安全 沒有民主我們堅決反對台灣的核電廠演繹謝謝吳佩奕委員的發言接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員進行發言 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5920f4be88e7f6d3334c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00f05dc707a53e8c9f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:40:24 - 09:43:52","影片長度":"00:03:28","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 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各位立法院的同事剛剛其實我聽了很多位的提案說明徐宇甄委員也說要確保安全劉淑檳委員代表民眾黨也說要安全無虞甚至連我們的主席也說要安全無虞的狀況之下所以大家都知道嘛 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各位都知道不斷的跳票 完全沒有解方所以今天我們在這個地方討論核電廠研議的討論我們必須要問安全 負責任 民意支持 這三個規準我們要如何來符合"},{"start":85.541,"end":111.726,"text":"所以今天很感慨因為大家都在新聞上矚目泰緬的地震所造成的災情以我們核三長來講它就是位在斷層帶我們都想要一個非核的家園因為那是對我們未來的子孫的承諾但是我們今天坐在這裡我們能夠承諾什麼我們能夠保證什麼"},{"start":114.727,"end":143.66,"text":"那我們過去已經見證了921地震對於我們的一個威脅所以能源的政策我們應當要以安全作為一個最高的原則那這也是我們環境基本法第23條最重要的一個意涵所以今天在這裡我們要替我們共聊的朋友萬里龍門恆春地區蘭嶼的朋友著想"},{"start":144.54,"end":169.85,"text":"他們常年承擔著核電所帶來的風險跟壓力但是他們到底有沒有獲得對等應有的關注這些地方的居民都跟我們一樣都希望能夠在家鄉安心的生活而不是因為核電的存在核廢料的存在讓他們的地方發展受限人口流失產業凋零"},{"start":171.351,"end":190.331,"text":"所以在這裡我們還是要來呼籲大家在能源轉型的同時我們應該要確保當地的居民他有參與討論的權利而不是被迫接受我們的決策那在這個地方我們再一次來討論關於核電廠研議那請大家審慎一對謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e57ae5ef292e58913334c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00f94d4c3b9d427a4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:33:08 - 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核二 與核三廠不再研議國民黨黨主席朱立倫2016在當新北市市長的時候也曾說過沒有辦法處理核廢料就沒有資格使用核電還說2025一定要達到非核家園的目標"},{"start":59.094,"end":85.677,"text":"現在的新北市長何有宜更是多次的強調沒有能力處理核廢料就沒有資格用核電請問國民黨是忘記了嗎還是害怕想起來本席想要請教我們國民黨的委員們核電廠如果持續運行的話那持續暴增的核廢料要放在哪裡有沒有人自戈奮勇說來核廢料放在我的縣市有沒有基隆"},{"start":89.165,"end":117.095,"text":"還是台南 新北 桃園 新竹我想喔 沒有有哪個委員可以扛下來我想大家來明確表示一下再者啦2013年壓力測試歐盟同行審查報告就有提到台灣遭受天然危害例如地震 天災極端氣候的影響或火山爆發的風險越高於世界上許多其他的地區特別是"},{"start":118.355,"end":127.12,"text":"遠高於接受歐盟壓力測試的核能發電廠的歐洲國家所以我們不能跟歐洲國家來類比好 那現在要討論研議的核三廠恆春的活動斷層是通過廠區的像台灣面積那麼小如果發生核災 要承受風險不是只有南台灣而已 是全台灣"},{"start":138.906,"end":168.466,"text":"所以本席認為在國際趨勢之下政府應該致力推動再生能源發展以及電網的更新才是能源政策的正本清源那政府的能源政策必須要做好妥適的能源分配那如果要談核能研議我們就要加以考量老舊核電廠的安全升級跟它的檢修的成本你如果把研議時的這個安全強化措施成本再加核廢處理的所謂的成本納入考量"},{"start":168.986,"end":189.991,"text":"那這個核電的成本那麼倍增根本無助於穩定電價那可以說是與國民黨核電重啟才有辦法穩定電價的說法剛好背道而馳那所以無論是說談核電研議或者重啟成本都相當相當的龐大那除了安全上不可行我想我國"},{"start":190.951,"end":204.68,"text":"能源的運轉政策也排擠發展再生能源的資源所以本席要強烈的呼籲在野黨就要放下所謂的修核管法這樣的想法以及發展核電的堅持我們應該把這個珍貴的資源專注在有效的能源發展的解方"},{"start":211.084,"end":225.845,"text":"例如我們深度節能或者能源轉型共同來支持推動再生能源才是上策那同時我們也要注重對後代的永續發展真的不要做一個不負責任的修法者以上"}]}},{"id":"159781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e59bb8e4ce9c3709ec34c8d3588d9758e6e0e68ba40c49a00f92aeab3b46f231cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:43:57 - 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要先拿出來所以在這個地方我其實是特別想要談有一種風險叫做一次都不能承受的風險"},{"start":101.192,"end":127.29,"text":"我也想到一首歌就是叫做我來刀一割刀但是它不是卡加布列島我很擔心我不要我來刀一割刀叫做軍事無人島我們是一個地震頻繁的一個島國我都不曉得說大家有那麼大的信心認為未來的十年二十年一百年"},{"start":128.413,"end":150.368,"text":"我們沒有辦法承受這樣的一個風險我們要的是永續的家園我們要的其他的能源我們都還找得到辦法但是現在就想問何能我們有辦法處理嗎希望大家一起來做智者多慮 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5c659ea4a5589f88634c8d3588d9758e6782ddb04f65b48d274881cda51d8a84a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:41:54 - 10:45:39","影片長度":"00:03:45","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 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國際新聞就是緬甸 泰國的強震震災是全人類的痛更是我們身處斷層帶台灣人的集體創傷那現在的河山場又位於恆春的斷層帶所以我想這個事情我們不能"},{"start":74.625,"end":101.417,"text":"避而不見我們不能不正視這個問題所以我想面臨到這樣的一個安全問題大家為什麼都一直說核能相對安全這我很不解那我們現在如果說我們來研究這個所謂的法案國民黨提出的修正法案我很認真來看我覺得目前你們提的這個提案內容其實某個程度也算根本是一疊廢紙怎麼說"},{"start":103.118,"end":129.673,"text":"因為現行法並沒有禁止核電廠的研議你們來看第六條現行條文核電廠齊滿了有需要繼續運轉者必須申請換發執照相關換發規定存用前條第一項好我們就來看前條本法的第五條第一項當中很明確的提到如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要確保公眾的健康安全"},{"start":130.473,"end":148.689,"text":"那我們現行法跟國民黨今天要修的法有什麼不同?有啦!就在哪裡?有個不同是說國民黨就是要放寬核安的管制標準讓沒有在其縣內申請研議甚至廚藝的工作早就要進行的老舊核電廠要讓它繼續運轉"},{"start":150.931,"end":165.821,"text":"所以不要再用什麼狗屁話術來說國民黨同時有在兼顧河安國民黨不是意圖讓河安管制更寬鬆而你們的修法就是跟現行法白板都一樣了啦所以話要講回來"},{"start":168.257,"end":183.056,"text":"我覺得 如果國民黨認為今天的修法有那麼大的公義性那 我也還是納悶了我們今天看今天的這個修法的提案版本本委員會喔 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核電一塊多 線上的電三塊多 每用核電就可以賺兩塊核一核二三加起來四百多一度電 一千億耶民進黨 你們多挖了一個一個洞的一千億出來 每一年要多一千億"},{"start":186.343,"end":214.469,"text":"那在漲電價你們要賠嗎我今天鄭重的呼籲這次好不容易電價穩定委員會擋下來了十月份如果在漲電價找民進黨今天派的立委要錢一年一千億你們怎麼跟人民交代另外你們是跟都市的民意對撞台灣最近這幾年的民意調查用核電的都佔多數啊我們還通過了公投欸以核養綠欸"},{"start":216.877,"end":243.672,"text":"所以從世界的潮流從電價不要漲還可以降到多數的這個名利我請民進黨政府趕快閒來熱馬今天在野黨是非常負責的提出了提案包括民眾黨本來你如果借期前要五年我們把它縮短為借期前一個月到六個月全世界先進國家都已經在研議啦日本"},{"start":245.151,"end":250.977,"text":"在112年的2月份就通過 允許核電廠延綠20年就從40延長到60年美國現在通過的有96座 延綠最長的可以到80年我們現在核一核三都是用40年啊美國可以延 日本可以延 為什麼台灣不行最重要最重要的 我請前面一起來檢視"},{"start":270.509,"end":294.882,"text":"如果電價再漲 請對著民進黨 政府跟民進黨今天發言的立委他們為什麼讓我們電價一直漲 造成我們產業的負擔 造成我們民生的負擔請民進黨來負責任 最後我做一個總結今天法案過了 主動檢查還是在民進黨執掌的手上啊要去檢查有安全 要不要提出申請 是民進黨的政府要做這件事欸"},{"start":296.144,"end":304.575,"text":"所以民進黨不要汙名化今天的修法請你們跟人民站在一起跟降電價站在一起跟世界潮流站在一起不要那麼壞不要那麼笨謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e59943f53c4c3924b834c8d3588d9758e6782ddb04f65b48d279bf6ad6b7fd95895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:23:40 - 10:27:07","影片長度":"00:03:27","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 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謝謝主席我想我們今天討論的是核子反應器設施管理辦法的第六條那本席有提所謂修正動議那今天提這個修正動議提這個修法的版本最主要的目的是提供台灣的能源多一種選項而已今天並不是要討論說核四要不要重啟核三要不要研議核一核二怎麼樣今天討論的是我們這一條我們要不要放寬所謂申請的年限因為在原條文裡面是說經營者要主管期關規定的期限內"},{"start":35.225,"end":59.09,"text":"申請換發執照但是我們眼見這個主管機關規定的期限內我們合一合二合三合四等等的期限已經要到期了所以我們只是修說因申請我個人提出來的版本是修因申請換發執照就提供一個彈性申請換發執照的空間我不是說今天馬上就要讓他申請換發執照而是說未來有一天如果社會有共識如果執政黨覺得"},{"start":60.29,"end":83.536,"text":"核安沒問題了之後我們總是要有一個法令讓它能夠重啟吧那你今天如果把這個定時說是要在主管機關規定的期間內定時之後那以後要重啟是沒有機會啦所以這是第一個部分那第二個到底核電安不安全我想依據國際原子能總數統計到今年2025年3月為止全世界目前還有416座核反應爐其中"},{"start":86.337,"end":103.75,"text":"超過四十年以上的一百九十座佔比超過百分之四十五點七五十年以上的有四十四座佔比達到百分之十點六那裡面也不乏許多先進國家科技強國我剛問的是問題是說今天我們台灣是一個怎麼樣有黑科技的地方嗎"},{"start":104.671,"end":131.519,"text":"世界各國都能夠處理核廢料都能夠啟用核電的地方那為什麼台灣就沒辦法還是我們有比核能更好更安全更強的發電模式可以取代核能發電這樣的技術看起來目前是沒有的那很多人在談說核廢料怎麼處理那我問的是說此時此刻台灣有八成使用火力發電的時候怎麼沒有人問說請問一下碳氧化物 氮氧化物 硫氧化物怎麼處理"},{"start":132.099,"end":152.861,"text":"他沒有處理啊他就排出來排到空氣中怎麼處理難道大家多買一些空氣清淨機嗎還是大家多跑一點馬拉松多吸一點廢氣進去都沒有人處理你明天討論這個問題但是大家一直糾結在何非要怎麼處理何非要怎麼處理我想世界各國先進國家都有提供很多方式了我想法國以法國為例啊我在這個公開資訊我想於是能夠提供相關的資料"},{"start":153.502,"end":173.588,"text":"核廢料經過再組織技術之後有96%的鈾和布可以被回收利用製成新的核燃料持續提供電力我想其他先進國家這幾年下來已經努力地發展核廢料回收核廢料再利用的技術那我們是不是要繼續活在2011年那個時期"},{"start":178.089,"end":204.46,"text":"活在20年前10年前對核能理解還是應該進到2025年了因為剛剛很多委員也提到說2011年馬英九講什麼2016年朱立倫講什麼拜託一下那都是20年前的事情了現在是2025年應該有新的科技應該有新的方式可以面對核能技術所以我拜託大家我們提的修法是針對換發執照把它放寬要不要啟用我們的確可以討論但是我覺得至少要給核能一條活路以上 謝謝謝謝黃建豪"}]}},{"id":"159795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5f8210e59737f6b8334c8d3588d9758e6782ddb04f65b48d2fb433ea9b5ad6db25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:19:27 - 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謝謝趙偉我想剛剛大家都在討論我也必須講一句話我們剛剛也有其他的委員我沒有要針對但是就事實來討論也有其他的委員在說在二三十年前國民黨興建了這個核能發電是以反攻大陸為基礎有沒有安全的可能性這樣子也沒有事實也是在潑髒水的一個情況之下沒有任何的科學依據來定調"},{"start":34.105,"end":60.011,"text":"我想在這個時機點我們希望能夠好好的來討論核能安不安全 核能要不要研議我們先講結論剛剛已經有許多的委員都在說了今天我們只是賦予了彈性我也曾經在這邊問過主管機關主管機關很清楚的也回答第一 當我們今天修法以後是不能強制去使用"},{"start":60.831,"end":79.365,"text":"而是要透過台電還要選擇要不要去申請展延再來河安衛還要再去評估能不能安全在這樣子的前提之下今天國民黨並不是要去強制不安全或者是有疑慮我們強制使用"},{"start":80.166,"end":94.496,"text":"所以我們回歸理性再來討論今天就很簡單賦予彈性國民黨就是萬惡嗎最後不也是要交給台電不也是要交給核安會去做相關的評估嗎再者我們不是很希望"},{"start":95.256,"end":110.033,"text":"台積電能夠持續的在台灣穩定的擴廠增加嗎而台積電有相關的一些新聞指出在所有的廠區裡面就台灣來說它的電價是非常高的"},{"start":110.774,"end":138.784,"text":"我們要發展這樣子的高AI科技我們甚至想要邀請國際的AI科技大廠來到台灣半導體產業帶來的電力需要快速的成長目前的能源能夠補足嗎所以我們更希望何安衛如何看待我國能源轉型中的一個角色我們是否能夠如美國、法國、日本等國在安全無虞的情況之下審慎的去延長核電廠的使用年限"},{"start":140.064,"end":152.75,"text":"剛剛我們也看到有女性的委員作為母親我相信大家都是為了下一代為了孩子但是我們男性的委員我們也是為了下一代為了孩子啊"},{"start":153.737,"end":170.732,"text":"我來自台中有人說沒有討論沒有安全我們要問問大家在台中火力發電廠的情況之下在所謂的在增加了天然氣機組結果我們的火力發電竟然燃煤機組不會"},{"start":172.433,"end":194.045,"text":"停止不會廢除而是備而不用在這樣子的情況之下有問過台中人嗎有讓台中人來決定嗎我們台中人享受這些空污的時候我們能夠為自己發聲嗎所以今天我們站在這裡作為台中的立法委員拜託如果討論我們的核廢料要怎麼處理"},{"start":194.645,"end":216.212,"text":"我絕對支持但是也拜託你幫我們討論台中的空汙該如何處置我們該如何幫我們台中人的健康安全來做第一審慎思考這也是應該列入一起討論我想每個人都要安全但是每個人都要健康那今天台中人的健康放在哪裡我希望大家一起來討論 謝謝好 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國外重啟那我跟大家一個報告2024年世界核能產業現況報告的統計過去的核電跟現在的核電成本相比已經從原本的123"},{"start":151.698,"end":177.351,"text":"每千度123美元上升到了182美元上升了49%相反的風力和發太陽能的成本已經下降了六成到八成因此國民黨為什麼一直不把這件事情揭露出來呢把事實揭露嘛講科學我們就來論科學啊所以如果核能要成為評價的電力來源其實是不切實際的"},{"start":179.369,"end":191.232,"text":"重要的重點應該是我們要來強化我們的電網韌性加強儲物能那剛剛葉仁芝委員也有說啊那我們政府就應該好好來把這些安全處理好啊欸 是誰砍了那麼多錢啊是誰啊 國民黨葉仁芝忘記了嗎就像忘記審查機密預算的時候要關直播一樣嗎"},{"start":200.234,"end":218.09,"text":"最後我想我還是要呼籲一下今天這個絕對是一個政治型的法案因為這是朱立倫主席才是的一個法案整個教育委員會裡面除了葛如君委員其他都沒有提出來我們不要讓政治凌駕民生凌駕兒童的安全 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的發言接下來有請吳佩奕委員進行發言"}]}},{"id":"159806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e570bd4e17a5351b3934c8d3588d9758e6782ddb04f65b48d293c5041e5e26a2c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:48:21 - 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謝謝主席首先先對剛剛這個國民黨委員說這個肺腺癌都是民進黨的問題這個部分我提出嚴正的一個抗議不要什麼事情都怪民進黨不要連你們家馬桶不通你也怪民進黨你前一天拉肚子上廁所沒衛生紙也怪民進黨不要什麼事情都往這個執政黨上面頭上栽贓"},{"start":37.224,"end":59.143,"text":"講到2022年其實美國的核能佔比也已經下降到18.2%這個發電量較前一年下降了0.9%這是我們最新得到的一個訊息當全世界的核能佔比都在普遍下降那麼剛剛其實藍白委員他們在說的日本要重啟他們只說了一半"},{"start":59.884,"end":69.392,"text":"他們沒有說的是日本同步的大幅增加了天然氣燃煤和石油進口而且增加了大量的太陽能發電"},{"start":71.589,"end":90.703,"text":"這個關於核電的重啟或者是研議不是只有核電監管機關說了算他還必須跟當地所有的居民縣市政府要有一致的共識才能夠處理這樣子的問題台灣跟日本一樣處於所謂的地震帶那也是應該要首要的來考量"},{"start":91.966,"end":108.717,"text":"再來,我想提到一點,關於所謂研議的部分台電有沒有足夠的業務費來評估核電是否能夠重建任何一個國家的核電廠要研議一定要經過非常久的時間,是數年的時間"},{"start":109.978,"end":124.858,"text":"而且有工程跟評估的研究要投入大量的經費跟預算我以2014年台電出估當時他們說如果核電光是2014年要研議的話必須要花費580億"},{"start":127.561,"end":151.798,"text":"而現在11年的時間過去了所有的原物料難道都不會上漲嗎所有的研議的成本都不會上漲嗎我們的台電有沒有足夠的業務費來處理這一塊這是最現實的問題更遑論剛剛提到的核廢料到底是要堆在你們家嗎要堆在你們的縣市嗎要堆在基隆嗎"},{"start":152.999,"end":176.713,"text":"現在我們的核廢料的問題處理了嗎所有的東西沒有處理之前安全是最重要的一個考量沒有安全就沒有研議的問題講得這麼清楚難道要把所有的責任再丟給我們的下一代去承擔嗎不要像巨嬰式的修法以為修了法就可以來改變這樣子的一個狀況這是非常不負責任的我再講一次"},{"start":180.447,"end":183.133,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員的發言接下來有請張雅琳委員進行發言"}]}},{"id":"159799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e53e47a188ce6e041634c8d3588d9758e6782ddb04f65b48d2b92ba5236964c1d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:27:19 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反科學 反民主 不顧國人健康的民進黨委員請大家真的要好好記住他們的臉孔我們今天走的是一個世界 符合世界潮流 世界趨勢"},{"start":209.639,"end":235.297,"text":"全世界的國家現在都重返核能看看日本韓國美國歐盟的國家大家是不是都是提高核電的比例不要再說核電廠不安全問問台電吧問問經濟部問問核安會我們的台電我們的核電廠到底安不安全這不是你們這一群民進黨委員說不安全就不安全的"},{"start":237.23,"end":237.671,"text":"好 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e57254811031145c2a34c8d3588d9758e6c75f6b5b4b5fbf8cda6c27b9980abdb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:00:58 - 11:04:16","影片長度":"00:03:18","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 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謝謝主席"},{"start":7.021,"end":32.966,"text":"各位我們本會的同仁還有在線上收看轉播的公民今天是我們在教委員會由國民黨及民眾黨的委員分別提出了核管法的修法的版本那我們在進行在逐條討論之前的大體的詢答那這是我的第二次發言剛剛前面呢在第一次發言之後我聽到很多國民黨委員的言論其中"},{"start":35.487,"end":48.453,"text":"翁曉林委員因為他有指出太嚴重的造謠必須要來澄清那我覺得比較麻煩的是因為翁曉林委員他造謠完就跑掉了他剛剛說民進黨讓台灣人得肺腺癌這是一個莫大的控訴因為大家知道燃煤中火是誰蓋的是蔣經國蓋的中火是蔣經國蓋的"},{"start":63.294,"end":77.4,"text":"所以歐小維林委員是在指控蔣經國先生讓台灣人得肺腺癌嗎但他站了完就跑了留下國民黨的委員在現場我相信他們也不知道如何來回應今天我要再次的重申核電演藝這個議題的討論"},{"start":81.541,"end":100.348,"text":"並不是在追求更先進的技術因為現實來說我們現有的核電廠就是數十年的老舊核電廠而當年在興建的時候是不公開不透明也缺乏了民主的機制甚至當年是沒有環評的"},{"start":101.448,"end":103.649,"text":"所以我要再次重申當我們在討論核電研議的時候我們在討論的不是先進新型的核電技術而是數十年的老舊核電廠要繼續使用的問題那這當中有什麼樣的問題有安全有核廢料的處置剛剛前面張祺凱委員說日本美國都可以處理台灣怎麼不可以處理"},{"start":125.655,"end":129.559,"text":"日本美國請問目前有高階核廢料處置廠嗎請問有嗎是沒有的所以我們剛剛一再討論的是你最終處置廠如果你要繼續研議核廢料勢必會增加請問提案要放寬有彈性的這些委員們你們的主張應該要放在哪裡呢第三點"},{"start":150.419,"end":167.406,"text":"剛剛謝龍介委員說擔心子孫的負擔現在唯一有最終處置場的芬蘭他這一個處置場接下來要運轉的要使用的會花費的就是十萬年的時間才可以慢慢的來處置這些核廢料所以如果你們要講到子孫的負擔的話我們要"},{"start":172.228,"end":191.447,"text":"繼續倘若你們要讓這個核管法放寬讓老舊核電廠繼續使用讓台灣的核電核廢料繼續增加的話我們未來要給我們的子孫增加多少年去消耗消化這些核廢料的負擔請務必要說明清楚那再來最後我要講的是"},{"start":192.148,"end":198.712,"text":"安全很重要這我想我也肯定這是今天不同黨派的委員即便有些立委是認為主張要延誼要延長放寬這個條文但是大家都認為安全一定是最重要的但是安全不是能夠直接照抄其他國家每一個國家要考量的人口密集度位置地震帶地質等等的評估都是不同的"},{"start":217.665,"end":225.089,"text":"所以每一個國家的安全是需要不同的專業評估而剛剛很多人也說這個條文就算通過之後也不是要求台電要立刻的來重啟要繼續讓運轉能夠延續但是我們想問的是那為什麼要在這個時間點在社會沒有共識幾次的委員會討論也都沒有共識的前提下要強行的進入逐條討論要強行的去送出這個版本呢"},{"start":247.362,"end":251.583,"text":"剛剛討論到大家擔心的供電的問題假如這個條文通過他要經過的安全的審查專業的審查這是還需要數年的時間也根本跟剛剛講的要能夠及時的來應對供電的問題時間上根本就對不上所以我們只能非常的憂心非常的憂心的擔憂為什麼因為過去一年的立法院我們看到多次都用政治來凌駕專業"},{"start":275.95,"end":280.213,"text":"用舉手表決來凌駕我們各個部會的專業來凌駕法律的專業甚至立法院可以用舉手表決的方式提出違憲的法案今天如果我們相信了他們說的我們只是給你一個彈性來通過這個放寬的法律未來要不要放寬還是由政府來評估但是 常任通過了"},{"start":298.627,"end":307.271,"text":"下次他們再提議再提案說我要求你明年就要來這個評估研議繼續運轉我們真的相當相當的擔心未來立法院有可能用舉手表決的方式凌駕了專業而犧牲了安全所以我們要再次的重申沒有辦法處理核廢料沒有安全我們沒有辦法來讓核電要研議的這個條文通過謝謝"},{"start":327.504,"end":330.29,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員的發言接下來有請陳秀寶委員進行發言"}]}},{"id":"159816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e58140c33fe29a859f34c8d3588d9758e6c75f6b5b4b5fbf8c5347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"11:16:36 - 11:20:08","影片長度":"00:03:32","會議時間":"2025-03-31T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案」案(三)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案(四) 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謝謝主席剛剛來自台中的羅廷維委員有點名指出關於台中人的權益我來幫大家恢復一下記憶台中火力發電廠是從國民黨威權時期1986年開始興建甚至在馬英九總統還有胡志強市長的任內達到燃煤量"},{"start":24.048,"end":46.802,"text":"空污排放的歷史高峰而在中火燃煤還有空污量最高峰的時刻當時的台中民選立法委員就是現在的盧秀燕媽媽市長而她當時對於國民黨的行為一聲不吭這是歷史的記憶那到底是誰在撿煤撿污呢蔡英文總統從2016上任以來積極透過電力系統的安排調度"},{"start":51.665,"end":65.109,"text":"減少中火的燃煤用量還有污染排放跟2014年相比目前中火排放的空污已經大幅減少70%燃煤使用量也已經減少未來當然還會繼續努力我再強調一次未來當然還會繼續努力"},{"start":69.591,"end":88.929,"text":"講了這麼多我想要請台中的立法委員你們絕對不要忘了這個記憶剛剛所有的國民黨委員還有民眾黨委員他們一致的說核安的問題核廢的問題你們也很關心那如果你們除了政治學問高深如果你們科普知識也很厲害請你們來教教我"},{"start":89.75,"end":106.021,"text":"目前這一次提案的委員你們的選區位於所謂30公里撤離圈的委員目前有王宏威你的選區在台北市中山區松山區羅志強委員你的選區在台北市大安區李燕秀委員你的選區在台北市內湖區南港區"},{"start":107.101,"end":123.808,"text":"許巧欣委員你的選區在台北市信義區松山區賴世保委員你的選區在台北市文山區中正區洪孟凱委員你的選區在新北市石門區三芝區淡水區巴里區林口區泰山區張志倫委員您的選區在新北市中和區"},{"start":124.628,"end":151.455,"text":"林德福委員您的選區在新北市永和區中和區羅明才委員您的選區在新北市新店區深耕區石碇區坪林區烏來區廖先祥委員您的選區在金山區萬里區汐止區平溪區瑞芳區雙溪區貢寮區還有黃國昌委員您的服務處在新北市板橋區請問以上我所點名的這些委員提案的委員你們可以教教我們教教選民"},{"start":152.495,"end":179.549,"text":"如果發生核災他們要疏散到哪裡也就是我剛提出來的30公里撤離圈如果都沒有辦法回答這個問題我要向各位報告核地場半徑30公里內的居民應該撤離而台灣核三廠30公里內就有6萬人核二廠30公里內居住550萬人如果真的發生核災相關的問題地方政府早就承認沒有能力撤離安置所以如果你們真的這麼厲害你們代表你們可以跟民意溝通"},{"start":180.269,"end":187.072,"text":"請你們教教我 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謝謝賴次長委員好我剛剛有看您的詢問你是提到說我們現在的水費還不確定會不會漲對不對"},{"start":31.195,"end":58.109,"text":"要看評估報告我們總體專業的來審視之後再來說還不確定但因為這幾天那個水價要不要漲的消息已經滿天飛了我有看到有的報導是說水價平均漲幅兩成六三成四成都有還講說那個水價可能會影響到七百多萬這都是我看到的報導但我因為我這樣問的問題是因為我很怕他會跟那個電價"},{"start":59.995,"end":75.968,"text":"電價是現在確定上週是動漲嘛對吧可是因為現在的物價因為大家有一個預期的心態就認為說本來以為是電價會漲所以很多像一些餐廳啊或者是很多產業它都已經漲價了"},{"start":77.389,"end":91.381,"text":"它是一個反映一個預期心態然後結果現在動漲表示說店價不漲了不漲了可是很多餐廳漲了它預期漲上去之後它不會調降下來因為那個物價有僵固性"},{"start":92.56,"end":121.382,"text":"所以我是想要跟經濟部提醒一下像類似這樣的消息是不是可以等到確定的時候再對外說明不要造成大家的這種預期心理然後造成物價波動不知道可不可以這個當然是沒有問題的因為這個物價的波動影響我們的民生所以基本上我們也期待委員運用你的影響力因為這個媒體報導所刊的並不是我們的方案而是這個"},{"start":123.444,"end":146.207,"text":"運用我的影響力應該是因為是你們的影響力我們當然也會做這個部分因為我今天在委員會裡面說明了多次那我們也請台水公司包括水利署甚至我們國營國營司來一起就這個問題慎重的來檢討那當然還沒有檢討之前的話任何現在媒體的報導都不是我們的方案"},{"start":147.383,"end":175.078,"text":"好 第二個喔 那個上週電價的那個委員會啊還包括那個經營部你們對外的說明你們是說那個電價 台電虧損的原因是因為主要是因為物料 是成本提高嘛 是不是是的 是嗎但是最近好像我看那個相關的資料來比如說我們進口的煤炭啊 還有天然氣啊他們的那個價格都修正到之前的水準了對吧 都降下來了吧"},{"start":175.718,"end":200.135,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有嗎現在我們電價審議委員會就所謂的電的發電主要的燃料不管是電我今天看到全球主要天然氣的期貨價格還有進口的還有那個這個氣價的部分在2020之前是9塊錢到目前為止的話我們預估是用15.4塊錢來預估的"},{"start":202.301,"end":225.025,"text":"然後煤價的部分這2016到2020是80塊現在的話幾乎是120到130塊左右所以還在跟這個戰爭之前還是相對的高檔所以目前為止這個部分的這個價格還是蠻高的那我們現在台電所產生的累積到去年年底4229億的虧損完全是這幾年"},{"start":230.114,"end":259.374,"text":"好 非常出來然後我們吸收這個市長再來我再跟你請教另外一個議題就是現在因為大家現在關心就是美國他們可能會把我們列為就是骯髒15國之一那我之前有問財政部財政部都一直沒有證實因為他說還不確定但是川普現在最新的說法是不管這是不是骯髒15國只要被認為說有貿易障礙或者是有不對等關稅的話通通都會提出一些貿易的相關措施"},{"start":259.954,"end":279.008,"text":"那現在經濟部有針對我們可能受到的影響的產業有做盤點嗎請問一下我們現在比較容易受到產業有哪些基本上我們跟美國的合作是非常的密切的那現在所謂的我的問題很明確啦就是說你們現在盤點的我們可能會受到產業有哪些"},{"start":280.171,"end":290.104,"text":"基本上因為他現在也沒有說明確哪一些的部分是怎麼樣有啊 比如說他現在已經講了像關稅就會調賞那當然你們也有評估過汽車業會不會受影響還有其他的汽車零組件會不會受影響都還沒嗎 都還沒評估"},{"start":298.564,"end":313.575,"text":"有做相關情境的模擬跟方案的因應但是最終美國政府在4月2號我知道那所以現在評估比較有可能受到的產業影響的產業有哪些這個部分我們當然有全面性的一個檢討"},{"start":315.436,"end":338.642,"text":"不是啦 我在問你問題耶不是 你也沒有在全面檢討我知道你有檢討才問你嘛你現在受到影響的產業有哪些就是那種委員說說的啦因為不確定的因素我們先講的話那造成的預期心理那不是造成一些不必要的恐慌嗎不是你這樣講我就覺得你好像沒評估耶我剛剛看新聞好像說昨天沒有相關的部會還跟總統去做報告"},{"start":339.704,"end":368.09,"text":"但是今天好像你也講不太出來所以如果你講不太出來的話那你做報告那這個報告有什麼只是讓大家感覺你有做事但實際上有沒有做我們有評估有配套可是我跟委員說我光是在新聞上看到的都比你講的多了包括汽車產業可能媒體報導講說汽車產業可能不會受太大的影響但是有一些汽車零組件比如說有的分析師指出有22項都有受到影響他們講的都比你還要多了"},{"start":369.249,"end":384.583,"text":"所以你到底是有評估還是沒評估是 確實是有的確實是有 那是 只是不能講是不是有這些 我們最後看到這個4月2號出來的結果當然我們以氣熱的配套措施就會立刻公佈是不是好 謝謝好 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20年到了之後他如果要續業他要先申請展延他的執照那每次是10年那到時候看看台電公司有沒有電力需求如果要續業就跟台電公司續業不過現在來講新的太陽光電大部分都是賣給需要綠電的人大部分都賣到業界去了"},{"start":152.194,"end":171.295,"text":"現在的會賣給綠電但是如果以當年11塊的未必會賣給綠電所以我要問的就是說他們如果許約要展延的話他會回到現在的3.5塊還是還在那個11塊的水平會回到現在的3.5塊因為他重新開始了重新開始嘛他只用展延喔"},{"start":172.656,"end":193.349,"text":"這個要確定喔我要講的重點就是這樣因為早期的太陽能的准售費率非常的高那如果你還讓他用11塊的展延的話這樣是不合理的完全不對的不會啦好我這一塊確認那第二個就是說如果要申請展延的話我們可不可以要求他替換太陽能板"},{"start":195.405,"end":217.706,"text":"這個要看他我們可以我們希望他換但是通常他那個之前20年的成本已經回收他發電成本是非常低的所以他看看他到時候的市場狀況他有沒有意願但是這個我要請你們去評估因為早年的太陽能板的發電效率跟現在比起來差很多是的所以如果你可以用早年的太陽能板"},{"start":218.707,"end":244.645,"text":"然後去要求他更換才可以再給他另外一個展延的等收費率而且等收費率要符合現在的我覺得這件事情反而是對於台電才是符合經濟效益的我們可以來評估好不好這件事要加速評估好不好不要拖太久因為雖然20年還沒有到但是我想今年已經2025了嘛如果你這樣看起來大概這兩三年會有陸續出現到期的狀況"},{"start":247.127,"end":267.255,"text":"所以愛慰與籌謀應該要先要先有一些因應好不好好那我們接下來再請我們次長是不是先留著我們再請農業部黃次長以及我們國科會沒有沒有國科會不用那個內政部國土管理署副署長好來我要請教我們現在在於"},{"start":275.717,"end":291.168,"text":"外省鼎州的這個布沙計畫這個我想次長很清楚因為次長在水利署的時候事實上這案我一直在追那外省鼎州的布沙計畫原本他是要用在布袋山港清淤的那些嗨沙"},{"start":292.149,"end":312.285,"text":"要為布袋三港 抓用船運把它帶到外山頂洲這是最原始的計畫但是這個船運的運費是龐大的所以我們後面抓用一個替代方式就是說現在布袋三港為了蓋海淡廠所以他們就是直接把這些土方去在海淡廠做填海造陸"},{"start":313.646,"end":341.201,"text":"這沒有問題嘛那外陝頂洲的問題要怎麼解決咧我在過年前我開了一個地方的協調會那我就是主要是說是不是協調包括漁業署內政部這邊趕快來變更計畫就是直接從外陝頂洲的東側直接做抽砂的方式然後抽到外陝頂洲的西側然後把整個那個砂岩把它墊高墊高之後就防止海浪"},{"start":341.841,"end":369.191,"text":"那個還硬啊 打過去就刷刷的沖刷下去就是說要把它墊高的這個動作非常的重要那透過抽砂的相對成本最低那我想要請教我們相關的部會因為我們當時我都有邀請你們來召開我們地方的公聽會那這個案件的整體的變更計畫那目前這個程序是走到哪邊的第一個整體的外山警桌的保護計畫"},{"start":371.946,"end":397.76,"text":"水利署絕對會持續來做不是只有前述的方案那剛剛委員所說的沙園的部分前述的方案確實如此但是依照這個新的需求包括新的情勢的變化從委員所講的外山頂中的東側去抽沙之外另外可能河口的部分可以多抽沙這些也是可以那我們會請水利署來做相關計畫的這個修正因為"},{"start":398.4,"end":416.165,"text":"最後準博的是在內政部因為它是海岸的主管機關市長我知道站在經濟部的角度你們會支持那現在整個變更計畫因為它是行政院的一個上位計畫那要變更這個計畫是不是要從內政部這邊所以是不是國土署這邊了解這個進度嗎"},{"start":419.72,"end":433.376,"text":"那這個 報委員今天 因為這個不在今天議題內我是會後 好沒關係 他們就再回覆委員你們回去回覆一下 說這個進度因為從過年前到現在已經過了三個月了那我們想要趕在今年年中前把計畫變更完畢"},{"start":434.897,"end":458.779,"text":"那這樣至少可以趕在看年底因為年底他又必須要訊息結束年底或者是明年可以執行好不好所以這個要緊好那我們再問一下也是延續剛剛類似的一個問題請教我們這個經濟部賴次長那整個我剛講的那布袋這邊填海造陸填海造陸未來就是要興建這個海水氮化廠"},{"start":459.8,"end":480.817,"text":"那這個填海造路的計畫目前進行到什麼階段我們今年大概六月底之前會把相關的環說書去送到環境部去進行環境影響評估的審查實施作業進入到程序裡面"},{"start":481.584,"end":507.438,"text":"所以今年六月會送到環境部對對那你們預估在什麼時候可以可以正式開始來進行這個計畫如果以你們正常的判斷的話因為這個環境影響評估的審查我們必須要尊重專業委員不過過去相關的案例大概是一年左右的這個審查的話我們是預估說只要說一年能夠通過審查後面的話大概是六"},{"start":509.383,"end":525.536,"text":"所以我們現在是期待這一案是不是在就是如果這樣抓起來大概在明年的大概在明年的年中左右可以把這個環評來完成審查如果沒有什麼意外的話大概是第四季啦明年的第四季我們希望說"},{"start":527.284,"end":546.365,"text":"以中為始我們希望因為這個海蛋廠對嘉義非常重要我們希望在121年之前就可以完成這些的建設好我覺得所有的工程的細節以及要協調的我們應該都要掌握好不要去讓它拖到了好不好好謝謝次長好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":821,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時5分）謝謝主席，我們是不是先請經濟部賴次長？"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，有關今天的議題，我想先請教一個比較初步的問題，就是有關再生能源的躉購費率。我們知道，從再生能源發展條例在2009年正式三讀，在2010年馬英九執政的時候，當年的費率是11塊到12塊9，已經將近13塊了，後來當然就逐年調降，一直到2020年，正式降到3.9塊，到了今年（2025年），降到3.5至5.7這個區段。所以我們看到，整個太陽能再生能源的發展隨著技術進步以及發電效能提高，事實上躉購費率也是逐年調降，所以我想請教的是，就你們的瞭解，以2010年最早期的太陽能設備，這個11塊的躉購費率到底什麼時候才會結束？"],["賴次長建信：它20年到期就會結束，日後隨著剛剛委員所說的成本降低，很多發電廠商或是綠能發電廠商就可以直供到市場，不需要透過這些制度。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒關係，那是另外的。我想要問的是，20年到了之後，它可以再要求續約嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個……"],["蔡委員易餘：瞭解的人可以說明。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。它的執照是20年，20年到了之後，如果要續約，它要先申請展延它的執照，每次是10年，到時候看看台電公司有沒有電力需求，如果要續約，就跟台電公司續約。不過現在來講，新的太陽光電大部分都是賣給需要綠電的……"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道！"],["李代理署長君禮：大部分都賣到業界去了。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，現在的會賣給綠電，但是如果以當年11塊的，未必會賣給綠電，所以我要問的就是……"],["李代理署長君禮：喔，不會用11塊的，不會。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我要問的就是，他們如果續約、要展延的話，會回到現在的3.5塊，還是還在……"],["李代理署長君禮：會回到現在的3.5塊，因為它重新開始了。"],["蔡委員易餘：重新開始嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：它是用展延喔！這個要確定喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：是、是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我要講的重點就是這樣。因為早期太陽能的躉購費率非常高，如果還讓它用11塊展延的話，這是不合理的、完全不對的！"],["李代理署長君禮：不會、不會。"],["蔡委員易餘：不會啦！好，這一塊確認。","第二個就是說，如果要申請展延的話，我們可不可以要求它替換太陽能板？"],["李代理署長君禮：這個要看它……我們希望它換，但是通常它之前20年的成本已經回收了，它發電成本是非常低的，所以要看看它到時候的市場狀況、它有沒有意願，但我們是鼓勵它換新的。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個我要請你們去評估，因為早年的太陽能板發電效率跟現在比起來差很多。"],["李代理署長君禮：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以如果你可以用早年的太陽能板然後去要求它更換，才可以再給它另外一個展延的躉購費率，而且躉購費率要符合現在的狀況，我覺得這件事情反而對台電才是符合經濟效益的。"],["李代理署長君禮：我們可以來評估。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？這件事要加速評估好不好？不要拖太久。雖然20年還沒有到，但今年已經是2025年了，如果這樣看起來，大概這兩、三年就會陸續出現到期的狀況，所以應該未雨綢繆，先做一些因應。好不好？","賴次長先留著，接下來我們再請農業部黃次長以及內政部國土管理署副署長。我要請教，現在在外傘頂洲的固沙計畫，我想次長很清楚，因為次長在水利署的時候，事實上，這案我一直在追。外傘頂洲的固沙計畫，原本是要用在布袋商港清淤的那一些海沙，要從布袋商港用船運把它帶到外傘頂洲，這是最原始的計畫，但是船運的運費是龐大的，所以我們後面就用了一個替代方式，現在布袋商港那邊為了蓋海淡廠，所以他們直接把這些土方在海淡廠做填海造陸，這沒有問題。外傘頂洲的問題要怎麼解決？我在過年前有開了一個地方的協調會，主要是協調包括漁業署等等，是不是由內政部這邊趕快變更計畫，從外傘頂洲的東側直接抽沙的方式，然後抽到外傘頂洲的西側，把整個沙源墊高，墊高之後就防止海浪，如果海浪打過去，就會把沙子沖刷下去，就是要把它墊高的這一個動作非常重要，透過抽沙，相對成本最低。我想要請教相關的部會，因為當時我都有邀請你們來召開我們地方的公聽會，這個案件整體的變更計畫，目前程序是走到哪邊了？"],["賴次長建信：第一個，整體外傘頂洲的保護計畫，水利署絕對會持續來做，不是只有前述的方案，剛剛委員所說沙源的部分，前述的方案確實如此，但是依照新的需求，包括新的情勢變化，從委員所講的外傘頂洲的東側去抽沙之外，另外可能河口的部分可以多抽沙，這些也是可以，我們會請水利署來做相關計畫的修正，但是最後准駁是在內政部，因為它是海岸的主管機關。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我知道站在經濟部的角度，你們會支持，現在整個變更計畫因為是行政院的一個上位計畫，要變更這個計畫是不是要從內政部這邊，所以國土署了解這個進度嗎？"],["於副署長望聖：報告委員，因為這個不在今天的議題內，我是不是會後查明清楚再回復委員？"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，你們回去回復一下這個進度，因為從過年前到現在已經過三個月了，我們想要趕在今年年中前把計畫變更完畢，這樣至少可以看看趕在年底，因為年底它又必須要汛期結束，希望年底或者是明年可以執行，所以這個很要緊。","我們再問一下，也是延續剛剛類似的一個問題，請教經濟部賴次長，我剛剛講的，整個布袋填海造陸，未來就是要興建海水淡化廠，這個填海造陸的計畫目前進行到什麼階段？"],["賴次長建信：我們今年大概6月底之前，會把相關的環說書送到環境部，去進行環境影響評估的審查實質作業，進入到程序裡面。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以今年6月會送到環境部？"],["賴次長建信：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們預估在什麼時候可以正式開始進行這個計畫？如果以你們正常的判斷的話。"],["賴次長建信：因為環境影響評估的審查，我們必須要尊重專業委員，不過過去相關的案例大概是一年左右的審查，我們是預估假如一年能夠通過審查，後面大概是六……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我們現在是期待這一案，如果這樣抓起來，大概在明年年中左右可以把環評完成審查，如果沒有什麼意外的話。"],["賴次長建信：大概是第四季……"],["蔡委員易餘：明年的第四季？"],["賴次長建信：我們希望以終為始，因為這個海淡廠對嘉義非常重要，我們希望在121年之前就可以完成這些建設。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。我覺得所有工程細節以及要協調的，我們應該都要掌握好，不要讓它拖到了，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝次長。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡召委。","我們現在請葉元之委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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來次長有沒有辦法請我們的水利主管機關的協助農業部門餘溫來認定"},{"start":173.08,"end":192.973,"text":"現在基本上所謂的工具間只要在一定的規模不造成妨礙水流的狀態之下但是事實上我們現在七合分數去現場看的很多是超過我們諸位想像的我瞭解但這些的部分對於水流是沒有錯我完全支持所以我希望說認定標準要一致"},{"start":193.753,"end":213.724,"text":"你要知道這個漁民會活動比高 為什麼他會失敗的不行 了解齁所以我希望說次長請指示我們水利署配合我們漁政農政單位下去做合理的認定好嗎 標準把它抓出來那漁民才知道說什麼可以做什麼不可以做 好不好 可以齁沒有問題接下來我們請黃次長來來黃次長風災農損怎麼解"},{"start":221.079,"end":244.594,"text":"氣候變遷我們只能靠政府的現金救助嗎我們也會強化我們的農業的韌性所以基本上在一些田間管理還有這個作物的這個焊作或者是輪作的這個部分我們都會來加強我們的輔導好謝謝 其實你們有一個做法除了現金救助之外你們農業部做了一個調查其實呢一般來講我們的現金救助平均每年只有31億"},{"start":246.316,"end":257.069,"text":"農業損失大概在121億其實大部分是農民呢他七到八成是自己要承擔所以你們是鼓勵農業保險嘛對不對除了農業保險還有什麼方式可以減少農民的災損"},{"start":259.266,"end":264.289,"text":"是不是我們透過設施農業,對不對?如果是溫室的設施,它可以擋風、避雨,還可以防蟲,是不是這樣子?所以農業部要鼓勵設施農業來減少包括天災、不管是旱災、水災的這樣的一個損害嗎?"},{"start":282.269,"end":301.745,"text":"對於這個方面我們一直都有在鼓勵好 但是問題來了來 下一頁為什麼農民他們比較不願轉從設施農業呢因為它的建置成本確實很高對 建置成本很高你馬上知道我要跟你請教的那農民沒有負擔那怎麼解決我們的農民就是有地有技術他有流動力但是他沒有資金所以我們一直 我一直在推廣農業部呢用"},{"start":303.246,"end":320.147,"text":"我們本來對農民給他貸款通稅貸三分之一啦對不對但是三分之一他也在損失啦所以我就覺得說有沒有可能未來的農業會轉向農企那農企本身他的經營方式他有能力去做貸款的設定"},{"start":320.868,"end":335.126,"text":"那是不是說地主農民提供土地 農企業去辦你專案貸款興建設施 農民還可以進來承租這個設施來使用像小黃瓜啦 這個茄子啦或者說其他的檳榔廢原轉做的設施 農業部知不知此"},{"start":336.154,"end":354.999,"text":"對於委員這樣子把這個由這個農企業的這個部分事實上確實是也是一個選項那不過跟目前的這個我們台灣的小農的這個部分的話可能還是有一些落差但是我們願意來思考沒有錯台灣的農業是小農為主但是現在變成是老農小農變老農了 青農沒有地"},{"start":357.519,"end":377.259,"text":"也沒有資金但是呢 今天老農有地 親農有勞動力如果透過農企業的介入透過 您是管農業金庫跟農金署嗎獨島啦另外一個市長獨島另外一個市長獨島 我記得是你 今天特別問你這一題那我今天選錯是不是另外一個市長是哪位市長是"},{"start":379.585,"end":401.978,"text":"胡赤是胡赤在負責是吧好那不管這個事情我還在跟你們部長講簡單兩個結論請農業部加強輔導農民投入設施農業的栽培並評估由農企業來協助興建由我們農業部以租代購的方式來協助他們那也金剛那個署長也還有我們次長也下去了就是經濟部水利署請就實況研擬適當規範輔導我們的水產養殖戶在河川地上合法經營可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":409.043,"end":409.596,"text":"好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時58分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們經濟部賴次長和水利署林署長。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也請農業部的黃次長和漁業署的陳副署長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好、署長好、副署長好。「魚塭設施配合防洪合理認定，設施農業可以減少災損推廣以租代購」，首先請教我們的賴次長，河川地可以設置魚塭嗎？"],["賴次長建信：河川地經過評估，在我們的管理辦法裡面，魚塭經過許可之後是可以的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是可以的嘛！「經水理分析無妨礙河防安全者」，這規定在河川管理法第六十二條嘛！","黃次長，你知道我們屏東很多河川地，我們臺灣是荒溪型的啦，平常時沒水，河川地很多農民在利用啦！"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳副署長，我有邀請你去過屏東嘛？"],["陳副署長建佑：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：屏東的屏北地區，是不是很多漁民的魚塭是設在河川地上面？"],["陳副署長建佑：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：平常是水利單位在管理嘛。那我請問一下水利署，魚塭的所有設施都被允許設在河川地裡面嗎？可以嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：只要是剛剛特別談到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：無妨礙？"],["林署長元鵬：對，無妨礙水流是可以設置的，沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在去年的9月13日，為了讓里港地區的養殖漁業用地……因為要合法申請，他們也去登記了，但是都遇到一個問題，就是漁業署要去認定的時候，河川局都說：你們這是「寮仔」，放工具、裝飼料的啦！這就是一個很明顯的問題。你們都知道，飼料放在魚塭旁邊，因為怕下雨，一定會做遮蔽，但是你們說那是行水區，四周圍不能有遮蔽，只可以用網子或門把它封起來，以免遭竊。但是那樣飼料間就沒有辦法達到防雨的效果啊！怎麼解決？有辦法解決嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，因為在高灘地裡面，如果加蓋類似庫房的建築物的話，我們都希望它有透水性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有透水性？"],["林署長元鵬：如果四面都圍起來，恐怕……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不把四面圍起來，下雨的時候飼料就濕掉了啊！"],["林署長元鵬：這個有一些技術，我們儘量用能夠透水的方式來做處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：賴次長，有沒有辦法請我們的水利主管機關協助農業部門、魚塭來認定？"],["賴次長建信：現在基本上所謂的工具間也要在一定的規模、不造成妨礙水流的狀況之下，但是現在我們七河分署去現場看的，很多是超過諸位想像的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解。所以我希望……"],["賴次長建信：那部分對水流是有妨礙的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，我完全支持，但是我希望認定標準要一致。你要知道，漁民會互相比較，為什麼他可以、我不行？瞭解吧！所以我請次長指示水利署配合漁政、農政單位，下去做合理的認定，好嗎？把標準抓出來，這樣漁民才知道什麼可以做、什麼不可以做。好不好？可以嗎？"],["賴次長建信：好，沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來請問黃次長：風災農損怎麼解？氣候變遷，農民只能靠政府的現金救助嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：我們也會強化我們的農業韌性，所以基本上在一些田間管理還有作物的旱作或者是輪作的部分，我們都會來加強輔導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實你們有一個做法，除了現金救助之外，你們農業部做了一個調查：一般來講，現金救助平均每年31億，農業損失平均每年大約121億，其實有七至八成是農民自己要承擔。所以你們是鼓勵農業保險嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了農業保險，還有什麼方式可以減少農民的災損？是不是透過設施農業？對不對？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：露天魚塭容易受損，室內養殖就比較不會。如果是網室或溫室設施，可以擋風、避雨，還可以防蟲，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以農業部有沒有要鼓勵以設施農業來減少天災包括早災、水災的損害？"],["黃次長昭欽：對於這方面，我們一直都有在鼓勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是問題來了。為什麼農民比較不願轉型採設施農業？"],["黃次長昭欽：因為它的建置成本確實比較高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，建置成本很高。你馬上知道我要跟你請教的。農民沒辦法負擔，要怎麼解決？農民有地、有技術、有勞動力，但是缺乏資金，所以我希望農業部推廣，本來農民貸款最多可以貸三分之一，但是三分之二也是會損失啊！所以我是覺得，未來的農業有沒有可能轉向農企？農企本身的經營方式就有能力去做貸款的設定，是不是由地主（農民）提供土地，農企業去辦理專案貸款，興建設施，農民還可以進場承租這個設施來使用，像小黃瓜、茄子或者是其他如檳榔廢園轉作的設施，農業部支不支持？"],["黃次長昭欽：對於委員這樣子以農企業來辦理貸款，確實也是一個選項，不過這跟目前臺灣的小農可能還是有一些落差，但是我們願意來思考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，臺灣的農業是以小農為主，但是現在變成老農，小農變老農了，青農沒有地、也沒有資金，但是今天老農有地，青農有勞動力，如果透過農企業的介入……","您是督導農業金庫跟農金署嘛！"],["黃次長昭欽：是由另外一位次長督導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是另外一位次長督導？我還以為是你，所以今天特別問你這一題。我今天選錯日子了。另外一位次長是哪一位次長？"],["黃次長昭欽：是胡次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔，是胡次長在負責。這件事情我會再跟你們部長講，現在就簡單講兩個結論：請農業部加強輔導農民投入設施農業的栽培，並評估由農企業協助興建設施，用以租代購的方式來協助他們；另外是請經濟部水利署就實況研擬適當規範，輔導水產養殖戶在河川地上合法經營。可以嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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首先有請我們農業部我們的黃處長黃處長市委員好黃處長好今年我們專案在討論防洪抗旱但是我看農業部的報告裡面有農業水庫要增加清一那苗栗縣的農業水庫有幾座"},{"start":42.58,"end":53.383,"text":"一共有三座,算很內行,很快清楚狀況,哪三座?明德、大埔還有一個是?"},{"start":59.588,"end":79.353,"text":"再稍微想想看,比較小你都忘記了,你看大不看小,叫做建壇水庫,再照瞧。你今天去,我期盼了很久,以前農業水庫要找水利子他都不管,他說屬於農業部的,今天我終於等到你了,看你們的報告有增加了一條。"},{"start":80.453,"end":97.277,"text":"就是農業水庫要清理那這三個水庫大埔水庫還有明德水庫還有建壇水庫啊現在主管單位是在哪裡我要好好找到他要好好的去研究是我們農水省啦我會帶你去會刊"},{"start":100.598,"end":118.176,"text":"尤其大埔水庫是鄰近的科學延期竹蘭的科學延期苗栗縣兩個重症頭文症跟竹蘭症所以那個真的要強那個汙泥到夏天的時候很臭啊今天你們提出計畫能不能幫我改善完成"},{"start":118.959,"end":141.692,"text":"那至於免得水庫在乾旱的時候我有去看過那時錢都在水利市那邊你們農業部分的很少所以這樣本來要清一結果要清不清的樣子看起來是勉強而清我希望啊次長這個幫我加強改善好不好好的委員這些部分我們都會在我們的預算裡面大力的來執行"},{"start":142.992,"end":152.377,"text":"這說完我會持續的追蹤蔡市長我再帶您去苗栗以下謝謝再來請我們的經濟部次我們的賴市長賴市長"},{"start":161.758,"end":180.699,"text":"委員好賴次長好你當了次長隨意使跟國營事業都是你在監督管理的單位那我們高雄來的賴瑞榮委員非常優秀我非常欣佩但是關於"},{"start":182.02,"end":198.34,"text":"他說啊這次電價調整不調整是將來要留給新民意啊我想說我算幾年以後什麼叫做新民意信從他叫做新民意不信從就不是新民意嘛"},{"start":199.329,"end":219.848,"text":"他講的也明喔這次所謂不調整電價是為了要留給市民你不要這樣炒作啊藍部的也不要有這樣藍綠的觀念啦跟委員會說明我們在審議委員會的話完全沒有討論到這個議題沒有沒有你講的他講的很清楚就是要留給大罷免用的"},{"start":220.569,"end":247.342,"text":"不增加定位如果定位一增加的時候民眾會反感他為了大罷免案所以你們執政黨不敢調整定價我感覺你們都沒擔心是因為關稅的措施而沒被宣示現在對於各國對於經濟的前景甚至為物價的波動委員會的審查日後有擔憂還是你所指定的人你大了解"},{"start":248.686,"end":255.853,"text":"增資2500億你們用增資說不是補貼的再增加500億3000億你們電價調整到現在已經多收了1600億你們5000億的資本額已經給你們4600億在那一邊了怎麼會歸得那麼厲害啊"},{"start":268.204,"end":290.076,"text":"我們是要面對問題我們是講你們的政策有錯誤啦當然裡面還要再去了解一下你也好好了解一下你剛剛過來我不好意思逼問了太緊但是不要有這種觀念為了大罷免不調整電價讓百姓覺得它是一種恩惠不是這樣去處理事情沒有 台電的負債比已經達到93%了"},{"start":293.218,"end":310.675,"text":"那即便台電公司員工非常的努力這個狀況還是要改善都為了一時的利益政黨的利益不要這麼做啊我真的警告啦習近平沒有成功的時候他要怎麼辦大家做事情要合理公平公正嘛"},{"start":312.037,"end":323.535,"text":"不要這樣亂講不是他亂講因為他是我尊重的委員可能他要選高雄市長我幫他宣傳一下好不好再來我們水利市"},{"start":327.331,"end":345.031,"text":"恭喜啊,林市長,我看你報告寫得很好,有水的時候無災,用水有度,再來你說水清衣油,非常的完美,台灣真的是一個美好的社會。"},{"start":346.332,"end":374.03,"text":"但是我只是說我為省議員到現在幾十年看水利局到水利市真的把主要的河川出要河川都整治的確確實實不錯我們中央管理的河川還有幾條主要的河川確實從水利局到現在已經進步很多那你今天提出來我非常欣賞的一句話就是怎樣全流域的治理"},{"start":374.75,"end":396.38,"text":"就是整條街要安裝,洪水來的時候要怎樣去釋散掉那位處長你現在是變成導師我怎麼特別說這樣,我今天要特別提到,我一直在提但是不曉得是軍會的欠缺,離地山上是屬於農業部的"},{"start":397.862,"end":424.736,"text":"那個裡面是在管理的那一個地方我們比較看不到在深山裡面再來深山一出來到一般的河流的時候就開始要整治這裡面也有農業部的水保室但是在這裡我一直在看剛剛你們講到淡化廠賴市長你淡化廠你們水利市一共騙了多少億算農政區請問一下"},{"start":430.224,"end":439.776,"text":"一個廠差不多是300多億包括建設包括營運那建設的部分因為我們是20年所以我一直在講我還在研究這個問題"},{"start":445.726,"end":473.084,"text":"講到南部的滯洪池南部的滯洪池你們少了一樣什麼叫做滯洪池要加湖流水這樣才有真正的效應因為我看過湖流水我這些年看不起這樣東西結果你們歷史做的湖流水缺水的時候真的很有需要你要往下去垂水抽出來所以說彰化廠你不只把這個湖流水滯洪池做在那邊"},{"start":474.105,"end":502.26,"text":"你依照你的流域下來看它的那個高度怎麼樣你們要去排像你一潭水庫要供應給我們縣里跟通宵的結果你們都農業水都沒有用我一直在強調一件事情那個丘陵地的凹地你就去把它看這個水路怎麼走你們不要啦把它當成住房池又加了浮流水你們反而不準"},{"start":503.18,"end":526.983,"text":"阿咱水包括溶水使得在灌溉水你們說喔溶液用水讓位很多你就在海邊靠近最低的地方把那些水灌溉的時候沒有用的水全部把它存到那個地方土地要買你也要買要吃你也要吃因為真正要改潔之道在這個地方尤其"},{"start":528.413,"end":540.983,"text":"廖處長,你在水利市的時候還做了一個開花裡面要的排水流量就是水源都把它存起來,水要湊出來,你只要這樣,你只要當化廠蓋的整層樓,不然台灣人做千福之國,那裡面起來不用走不準。"},{"start":548.311,"end":574.919,"text":"又能防治防洪,水才來最少,你有消化的地方。你這樣在地上活,你也真不...啊,我們現在怎麼喝水,就是地方自己的排水溝管理不好。像高雄哪裡有高,我來做水管,我集中在那裡把它蓋掉。你那普通的水溝不清,當然會淹水啦。這是有轉型跟沒轉型,天天都在講自己有多好。"},{"start":575.868,"end":590.089,"text":"要了解經濟戰我現在還說依照這樣製黃池加忽略水大膽的去做真的台灣才會不缺水才會說你們有水無災"},{"start":591.391,"end":614.92,"text":"用水的時候,大家高興用一點,不覺得怎麼樣,不要急急急急。當然像今年,我相信你水過了,你要注意防洪的問題,今年沒有旱災。但是我剛剛講的,我不曉得你們看法怎麼樣,秋林地到處哪裡都可以做我們的製索,要加浮流水。"},{"start":616.437,"end":635.874,"text":"像桃園你看到很多的水塘山,你在找辦法改進做湖流水嘛,那澳白乾脆就要跳出來,水源不斷。我是醜人,但是我摸過這個地方,天天在跑,天天被罵,罵到有血淚,這樣一點姿勢,我不知道會不會痛,你告訴我。"},{"start":637.915,"end":653.325,"text":"謝謝委員指導的意見多元的水資源的供給就是我們的政策目標而委員所提到方案裡面涉及到許多需要科學調查的部分在經濟部的地方中心針對於九大的地下水分區水源地址都有很好的調查"},{"start":654.105,"end":664.789,"text":"也是因為這些調查包括水利署下游的地下水的調查所以我們在百年大旱每找一口井它的出水量都達到我們預期的目標但是浮流水是很好的一個水源但是要看地質狀況"},{"start":676.394,"end":697.643,"text":"所以我們現在對水資源開發是適地適用,然後多元開發,還有倍元我告訴你,我告訴你幾年了,你現在要告訴我現在先去做處長,我通宵的丘陵地,燕尼的丘陵地那個地方我說你們去做一個做王子水庫精美化的作用"},{"start":698.343,"end":722.458,"text":"那根本會改變當地的一個休閒產業,這點你能答應我?現在你就提出這個結尾,我跟你們說,我跟你們說啊現在海地都沒有錢,都幾千億都用在擁抱啊這個就是行政院之所以要成立水及流域永續推動小組的目的好啦,次長,講得那麼準,你想什麼計畫只要你把我們實現當是你們承諾要做的啦"},{"start":723.098,"end":747.043,"text":"你們只說趴著,水沒有流逝,打井下來又抽不到水,都是表面的河口的崩潰啊我是很真心的講,好不好?你只是你的領域市長,我帶你們去看怎麼去做因為真的會做下來很漂亮,當地修行觀光產業會活化"},{"start":749.659,"end":768.789,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導不是是啊 阿市長你要怎麼做 我會找你來看喔 好吧好 要多時間 要請委員長去指導沒有沒有 你不要手手給我回答一下我是跟蹤事情很緊的人謝謝委員好不好 拜託一下 這幾個問題解決我頭就不會變得那麼白了 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時45分）主席好，首先有請農業部黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長昭欽：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：黃次長好。今天的專案報告是在討論防洪抗旱，但是我看農業部的報告裡面有提到農業水庫要增加清淤，請問苗栗縣的農業水庫有幾座？"],["黃次長昭欽：一共有三座。"],["陳委員超明：算很內行，很快進入狀況，哪三座？"],["黃次長昭欽：明德、大埔，還有一個是……"],["陳委員超明：再稍微想想看，比較小的你都忘記了，你看大，不看小，叫做劍潭水庫，在造橋。今天我期盼了很久，以前農業水庫找水利署，它都不管，它說是屬於農業部的，今天我終於等到你了。我看你們的報告有增加了一條，就是農業水庫要清淤。這三個水庫──大埔水庫、明德水庫，還有劍潭水庫，現在主管單位是在哪裡？我要好好找到它，要好好地去研究，是農水署嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["陳委員超明：蔡署長，你很優秀，我會帶你去會勘，尤其大埔水庫鄰近竹南的科學園區、苗栗縣的兩個重鎮──頭份市跟竹南鎮，所以那個真的要清，那個污泥到夏天的時候很臭啊！今天你們提出計畫了，能不能幫我改善完成？至於明德水庫在乾旱的時候我有去看過，那時錢都在水利署那邊，你們農業部分得很少，所以本來要清淤，結果要清不清的樣子，看起來是勉強而清，我希望次長幫我加強改善，好不好？"],["黃次長昭欽：好的，委員，這些部分我們都會在我們的預算裡面大力地來執行。"],["陳委員超明：好，你說的喔，我會持續地追蹤。"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["陳委員超明：蔡署長，我再帶你去苗栗一下，謝謝。","再來請經濟部賴次長。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：賴次長好。你當了次長，水利署跟國營事業都是你監督管理的單位。我們高雄來的賴瑞隆委員非常優秀，我非常欽佩，但是他說這次電價調整不調整，將來是要留給新民意的，我想說我才當選一年，什麼叫做新民意？順從他叫做新民意，不順從就不是新民意？他講得很明喔！這次之所以不調整電價是未來要留給新民意，不要這樣炒作啊！南部的也不要有這樣藍綠的觀念啦！"],["賴次長建信：跟委員及委員會說明，我們在審議委員會完全沒有討論到這個議題。"],["陳委員超明：沒有、沒有，他講得很清楚，不增加電費就是要留給大罷免用的，如果電費一增加，民眾會反感，為了大罷免案，所以你們執政黨不敢調漲電價，我覺得你們都沒擔當……"],["賴次長建信：是因為關稅的措施跟貿易的談判……"],["陳委員超明：都逞一時的利益，不敢真的面對現實啦！"],["賴次長建信：現在各國對於經濟的前景，甚至物價的波動，委員會審查認為有擔憂。"],["陳委員超明：對、對、對，但是你身為次長就應該了解，增資2,500億，你們用增資，說不是補貼，再增加500億變3,000億，你們電價調整到現在已經多收了1,600億，5,000億的資本額已經給你們4,600億了，怎麼會虧得那麼厲害？不要這樣說……"],["賴次長建信：台電一整年支出將近一兆元……"],["陳委員超明：我們是要面對問題，我們是講你們的政策有錯誤啦，當然裡面還要再去了解一下，你也好好了解一下，你剛剛過來，我不好意思逼問的太緊，但是不要有這種觀念，為了大罷免而不調整電價，讓百姓覺得是一種恩惠，不是這樣去處理事情。"],["賴次長建信：沒有，台電的負債比已經達到93%了，即便台電公司員工非常的努力……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，不可以這樣啦，這樣難看啦……"],["賴次長建信：這個狀況還是要改善。"],["陳委員超明：都為了一時的利益、政黨的利益，不要這麼做，我真的警告啦！新民意沒有成功的時候，它要怎麼辦？大家做事情要合理、公平公正嘛！不要這樣亂講……也不是他亂講，因為他是我尊重的委員，他可能是要選高雄市長，我幫他宣傳一下，好不好？","再來，請我們水利署。恭喜啊，林署長。"],["林署長元鵬：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：我看你報告寫得很好，這樣寫「有水無災、用水有度」，再來說「水清魚游」，寫得非常的完美，臺灣真的是一個美好的社會。但是我說真的，我從省議員到現在，幾十年來，看到從水利局到水利署，真的把主要的河川、次要河川，確確實實的都整治的不錯，我們中央管理的河川還有幾條主要的河川，確實從水利局到現在已經進步很多。你今天提出來有一句話我非常的欣賞，就是全流域的治理，整條溪在洪水來的時候，要怎樣去疏散掉？賴次長，你現在變成導師，我為什麼特別這樣說？我今天要特別提到，其實我一直在提，但是不曉得是不是經費上有欠缺，在山上是屬於農業部林業署在管理的，那一個地方我們比較看不到，在深山裡面，再來，深山出來到一般河流的時候就開始要整治，這裡面也有農業部的水保署。但是我一直在看，剛剛你們講到淡化廠，賴次長，你們水利署在淡化廠一共編了多少預算？總共幾千億？"],["賴次長建信：一個廠差不多是三百多億，包括建設、營運，建設的部分，因為我們是發包……"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，你跟我說預算多少就好了。"],["賴次長建信：20年。"],["陳委員超明：我一直在講，也在研究這個問題，講到南部的滯洪池，你們少了一樣什麼？叫做滯洪池要加伏流水，這樣才有真正的效益，因為我看過伏流水，我最先也看不起這樣東西，結果你們水利署做了伏流水，缺水的時候真的很有需要，你要往下去存水、抽出來。所以做淡化廠，你不如把伏流水、滯洪池做在那邊，依照你的流域下來看它的高度怎麼樣，你們要去排，像鯉魚潭水庫要供應給我們苑裡跟通霄的，結果農業水都沒有用。我一直在強調一件事情，丘陵地的凹地，你就去看它水路怎麼走，把它當成滯洪池，又加了伏流水，你們不用煩惱沒水，包括農水署的灌溉水，你們說農業用水浪費很多，你就在海邊靠近最低的地方，把灌溉的時候沒有用的水全部把它存到那個地方，土地要買，你也要買；要租，你也要租，因為真正改革之道在這個地方。","尤其賴次長，你在水利署的時候還做了一個開發……裡面要有什麼排水流量，水很多把它存起來、水要抽出來，你們就要這樣用啦！淡化廠花那幾千億，不知道臺灣可以做千湖之國，裡面做起來不用怕沒水，又能防治防洪，水災來至少有消化的地方，你這樣治水才有用。現在淹水，就說是地方自己的排水溝管理不好，像高雄那麼厲害，我來做市長，我絕對把那邊改掉，你普通的水溝不清，當然會淹水啦，這是有專心跟沒專心，天天都在講自己有多好，要了解根源在這。","我現在跟你說，依照這樣滯洪池加伏流水，滯洪池加伏流水，大膽的去做，臺灣才真的不會缺水，才會「有水無災」，用水的時候，大家高興，用一點也不覺得怎麼樣，不要這樣「虯儉」。當然，像今年我相信水夠了，你要注意防洪的問題，今年沒有旱災，但是我剛剛講的，我不曉得你們看法怎麼樣，丘陵地到處都可以做我們的滯洪池，要加伏流水啦！像桃園有很多的水塘，你再把它改進做伏流水嘛！以後缺水就從那裡抽出來，水源不斷，我是粗人，但是我摸過這個地方，天天在跑、天天被罵，罵到有學了這樣一點知識，我不知道可不可行，你跟我說明一下。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員指導的意見。多元水資源的供給，就是我們的政策目標，而委員所提到的方案裡面，涉及到許多需要科學調查的部分，在經濟部的地礦中心，針對於九大的地下水分區、水文、地質都有很好的調查，就因為這些調查，包括水利署下游的地下水的調查，所以我們在百年大旱，每鑿一口井，它的出水量都達到我們預期的目標。"],["陳委員超明：從深山出來的丘陵地看到，現在那個土地……"],["賴次長建信：但是伏流水是很好的一個水源……"],["陳委員超明：你可以抽出來嘛！沒有水的時候灌溉用……"],["賴次長建信：但是要看地質狀況……"],["陳委員超明：其他水庫的水，給科技在用、產業在用嘛！"],["賴次長建信：所以我們現在對水資源開發是適地、適用，然後多元、開發還有備援。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說好幾年了，你曾經跟我說「好」，現在升官去做次長了，我們通霄丘陵地、苑裡丘陵地那個地方，我說你們去做一個滯洪池，有水庫兼美化的作用，會改變當地的一個休閒產業，這一點你可以答應我，現在你就提出這個計畫，我才來跟你說，我才敢講，不然你們在那叫沒錢，但幾千億都用在南部啊！"],["賴次長建信：這就是行政院之所以要成立水及流域永續推動小組的目的。"],["陳委員超明：好啦，次長，講了那麼久，你講什麼計畫，我只要你實現當初你們承諾要做的啦！你們只說打井，水沒有留住，打井下來又抽不到水，都做表面好看的工作，我是很真心的講，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：委員我們會盡力……"],["陳委員超明：尤其是林署長，我帶你們去看，怎麼去做，因為做下來真的會很漂亮，當地休閒觀光產業會活化。"],["林署長元鵬：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["陳委員超明：不是「是」啊！到底要怎樣真的來做？我會帶你去看喔，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：好。約個時間，再請委員幫我們指導。"],["陳委員超明：「有影無影」？你不要這樣笑笑的回答我一下……"],["林署長元鵬：不會，不會。"],["陳委員超明：我是追蹤事情很緊的人耶！"],["林署長元鵬：謝謝委員長期的支持，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：好不好，拜託一下，這幾個問題解決，我頭髮就不會變得那麼白了，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在請黃健豪委員詢答。黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員不在。","現在請鍾佳濱委員做詢答。","中午我們不休息，延長開會時間到詢答結束。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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請做說明這個基本上就是追稅基本上要能夠掌握這個納稅藝人的財產如果你沒有辦法掌握他的財產的話你就很難追了"},{"start":373.072,"end":393.126,"text":"那所以市長這個就是財產他轉移你當然追不到可是你每一年這麼公布那你不自己打臉嗎這樣好不好我是不是會後再把相關的資料再送一份給所以我們用數字告訴你是年年追回地檢你去進行方案給本席好不好還社會一個公益好嗎謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1025,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時48分）謝謝主席，首先邀請金管會。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：金管會好。我想對於確保公平待客評核機制的公平性，我們首先來討論……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為大家存有許多疑慮，第一個，也就是目前的機制，消費者爭議情形只占評核總分的20%，但這才是評核公平待客是否落實的關鍵指標；第二個，負責評核的證基會與金融業者當然關係很好，在這樣的情況之下，要如何確保評核的獨立性？第三個，評核結果僅公布前50%的機構，表現較差的業者資訊沒有向社會揭露，所以市場的監管效果可能會打折扣。針對這樣的情況請教主委，金管會要如何確保公平待客的評核機制，使其能有公平性跟獨立性，避免流於形式？因為要考慮到消費者爭議處理的評分權重，這點非常重要，實際上這是最重要的執行關鍵，所以加強對不良機構的資訊揭露，以提升評鑑的真實性跟透明性，我覺得這點有待討論。針對這三項，請做回答。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的提示。第一個，其實公平待客原則的涵蓋面非常非常廣，但沒有錯，消費爭議絕對是非常重要的指標，所以這次的20%其實不算低，而且就這部分來說，還要考慮很多很多的問題，而且本來消費爭議還有其他的控管機制在控管。第二個，過去都是由金管會自行做評估，但就整個趨勢來看，金管會畢竟是監理機關，所以過去對相關評鑑，如ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑，大概都委託給交易所或是三個專業的周邊單位，透過專家學者來做，將這部分制度化，這是一個。至於證基會本身是否與金管會關係密切？我想其角色就是……這就像證基會的功能並非所謂的業務單位，也不是營利單位。再來，未來指標出來後怎麼公布？這部分，我們會來想想看怎麼樣能產生最大的效果，我們會來做這件事。其實我們做很多的評比並不是真的要讓市場產生不好的效果，而是希望督促金融機構能夠朝好的方向……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，主委現在講到督促，這個就是消費者末端的需求跟民意反應。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，現在也做了一部分，即針對第一項消費者爭議部分占20%，你認為說這評比滿夠的，但民意卻認為這是我所需要的，所以這項評比是不是可以再增加？請你去研議……"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，我們可以來做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個，負責評審的單位，不管是證基會或監管單位都很內行，這樣當然很好，但在勾稽上有沒有達到獨立性及公平性？這是金管會必須要去督導的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第三個是最重要的，你剛才回答說有50%的討論空間，因此這項應該要好好研討，而且你只公布前50%，真正差的卻不公布，這樣是不是會讓末端的消費……要怎麼均衡市場機制才是有待考慮的！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因此，你認為有討論空間，那你們就去做評比；評比後你們有怎麼樣的精進方案，請給本席一份。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主席，接下來請教財政部。"],["主席：請財政部次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，財政部每年都會公布欠稅大戶，2024公布915件，總共達895.12億，但追回的數字卻越來越少，不知道原因出在哪裡？在這樣的情況下，我提供一個數字給次長參考。這十五年你們分成三個時期追繳，2010年到2011年追回20億；2012年到2018年追回11到18億；2019年是5到8億，也就是近兩年追回5.9億和5.43億，而去年半年追回2.85億。換句話說，雖然累計追回245.19億，卻逐年下降，原因到底是什麼？原因到底是什麼？你要怎麼樣去精進好追稅成功？這是你們每一年的公告，而公告的跟追回的成效差距那麼大，原因到底是什麼？請做說明。"],["阮次長清華：追稅基本上要能夠掌握納稅義務人的財產，如果沒辦法掌握財產的話就很難追了！至於這幾年為什麼會往下降……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：財產轉移了你當然追不到，可是你每年都公布，這樣不是自己打臉嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這樣好不好，是不是會後再把相關的資料再送一份給……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我用數字告訴你，年年追回遞減，你去找出精進方案給本席，好不好？還社會一個公義！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 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他做一個警示的功能讓他說這個ATM是有防護的而且全民可能看到人家戴口罩戴安全帽去領錢可能稍微看一下第二個就是如果有人邊打電話邊理ATM後面的人也把他提醒一下其實我們跨銀行的溝通機制裡面我們都會把隨時有一些新的想法但是我們如果可以在第一時間在他領錢的那一剎那讓他變得很困難"},{"start":270.305,"end":291.826,"text":"至少緩衝他被詐騙或者是緩衝他領錢的機會其實我們還有想到很多其他的方式我們盡量用低成本來產生大小我想這個是我們接下來要做的用科技的方法用AI辨識的方式其實現在就可以組掉一半至少一千多件的ATM領款可能就會收到"},{"start":293.907,"end":316.229,"text":"接下來就是要問一下主委有關我們國際我們要做亞洲資產管理中心剛剛有很多同仁都已經問過了主要是其中一項很重要是家族辦公室家族資產的管理我想主委上任之後我也跟主委討論過為什麼台灣我們對於看到非常非常的有錢人他們常常在打遺產爭奪官司"},{"start":318.212,"end":334.812,"text":"或者是說他們自己的財產分配怎麼會做的這麼差第三個就是為什麼我們的法規還是會讓寫了遺囑的人不斷的碰到各種的爭端那最嚴重的是我想問一下這個資產亞洲資產主要是要針對國外的客戶還是國內的客戶"},{"start":337.495,"end":350.435,"text":"我想這兩個我們在很多的政策宣示上我們這兩個都是我們爭取的對象就是把台灣變成大家可以把錢放在這邊做好管理那其中有一塊我看到你們的東西"},{"start":352.093,"end":375.581,"text":"我看到那個信託工會他們有發聲明第二個信託我認為是一個資產管理很好的工具跟方法但是現在看起來是信託目前是就資產管理公司部分我們現在是以銀行為第一委託人我同意但是信託其實是一個很好的方法至少某個程度可以讓"},{"start":376.681,"end":400.196,"text":"委託人有自由意志來指定他的財產受益人但是我們看到我們跟國外很大的差異就是我們只能指定受益人在國外可以指定我的小孩我的孫子我的曾孫子我未來未來不知道幾代的孫子都可以所謂的家族信託也就是現在台灣目前這些法規能夠配得上嗎"},{"start":401.318,"end":427.614,"text":"現在確實剛剛也有委員有關切這一點我們剛剛也有特別請法務部的同仁來說明就是說現在確實也有一個提案是希望來修信託法那我們也跟委員會答應說我們會來跟法務部再來想我覺得這個是我們如果要跟國際接軌要讓大家把資產放在台灣來做管理的話你可能必須要跟不要說什麼 瑞士銀行為什麼可以"},{"start":428.454,"end":447.823,"text":"幾百年因為他們就幾百年前就接受了所謂的信託他們可以照顧他的家族一輩子可能下輩子我們要跟其他市場做競爭很多的法制應該要比較有一致性的這個可能是在亞洲資產中心很重要的一塊這也是我們推動的一個一環我們會持續來跟法務部來合作我覺得這個是最重要的一環否則"},{"start":449.224,"end":466.536,"text":"台灣早就會有人把錢放到這邊來第二個就剛剛講的還有地緣政治嘛我們要讓人家成為把錢放到這裡來放心的地方我們就要做讓人放心的方法第二個讓人放心的法規能夠配合的上好 現在那請那個法務部也上來好嗎"},{"start":472.728,"end":477.612,"text":"最後點時間我想跟主委討論一下就是上一次我問了有關虛擬貨幣現在美國川普總統已經把它作為所謂的"},{"start":484.099,"end":504.988,"text":"戰爭儲備政府的儲備第二個我們後來就很好奇他用什麼儲備所以他說他要去沒收扣押的錢扣押的虛幣所以我們就跟法務部調了台灣的政府也扣了很多虛幣法務部知道我們現在扣了非常非常多的虛幣我們的價值大概有多少"},{"start":508.727,"end":512.609,"text":"法務部提供的資料去年4月到今年3月一年比特幣扣押了將近203枚"},{"start":526.115,"end":549.207,"text":"折合台幣是5.5億以太幣2000多枚折合台幣1.47億還有很多穩定幣所以目前為止這些是政府扣押中的它可能有幾個去處第一個是要拍賣然後還給被害人第二個是有一些被政府沒收將來變成是法務部的資產可能是國家的資產我上次有跟主委提過有關我們虛擬資產業者我們要開始納管是的"},{"start":552.749,"end":574.164,"text":"這些將來可能的儲備現在可能就要開始討論所以我現在提供給你一個方向就是假如我們也有所謂的扣押的虛幣在儲備上面也可以作為金管會將來要訂立儲備這個部分可以跟法務部一起來討論一下有關未來"},{"start":575.529,"end":592.501,"text":"如果發生虛幣的問題虛幣的儲備要怎麼安排如果美國政府可以做那我們是不是有一些法案法規要來一起修正讓這些虛幣成為政府儲備的一個部分我想這部分是未來建構市場上面"},{"start":593.502,"end":617.572,"text":"假如它是一個成熟安全的市場遲早都會有建立遲早會來只是什麼時候來那現在有的相關的機制我們可能就要開始先做預防而且最重要的是我覺得虛擬貨幣接下去的納管在台灣應該會引起蠻多的迴響接下去民眾投入的會更多那安全性跟將來政府必須面對它"},{"start":619.072,"end":628.08,"text":"處理它這個問題會就在眼前 好嗎是 謝謝這個部分我也請主委就上次已經答應我要給我一個初步的方向 是的有 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":952,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委好。我們今天都在討論跟國際接軌，但是有一個最重要需要跟國際接軌的就是打詐，主委同意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這是國際上共同面對的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：應該是全世界都一樣的問題。165的打詐儀表板在今年2月才兩個月就高達兩萬三千多件，最嚴重的是財損兩個月已經達到156億，主委，你覺得這個情況有改善嗎？我們花了那麼多的力氣在法案跟相關人力、物力，這個情況還是不斷地發生。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想如果我們把時間拉長來看，相較於去年11月的高點來看的話，我們也看到數字有明顯地下降，當然還是很高，我們還是要持續地努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實蠻可怕的，就是國人在這上面還是……不管我們用盡各種方法還是有這麼多人受害，不過大部分經過調查大概就是假投資、網路購物、交朋友，還有盜用帳號，但是比較嚴重的就是被害人最後是透過ATM操作，ATM操作已經成為幾乎是所有被害人共同的經驗，而且不管是各種狀況，現在相關的打詐儀表板上面，ATM被害的案子就已經一千兩百多件，也就是說銀行局，我看到它2月份的時候邀請各銀行來討論，其實對於檢調單位很重要的就是利用ATM提款的時候，不管是車手或者是民眾去轉帳，其實都有可能可以有阻詐的機會，所以當時銀行局向銀行建議，用ATM提款轉帳都有監視器，其實如果用AI去辨識的話，可以要求他露出全臉，或者沒有露出全臉的則不讓他領錢。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，會限制一些功能。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，關於這件事情，現在進度怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，我們上次……因為最主要是有業者主動提供這個想法……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，如果用AI辨識，現在的手機都可以辨識你有沒有戴口罩了，我相信只要加入這些軟體的升級，還有一些時間，趕快進入，我覺得金管會應該要大力推動這個部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們有固定跟銀行之間的聯繫溝通機制，已經有銀行在做這個評估。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們查了一下，其實工研院在94年就已經有研製類似的監控系統，其實銀行也應該都有……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，可是牽涉到系統的改變……"],["黃委員珊珊：我想他們各單位以及大的銀行大概都有智能ATM正在成形……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只是希望金管會能夠統一，或者大家一起來努力。很簡單，第一個，針對戴口罩的人，可能不讓他領；第二個，最嚴重的就是邊領錢邊打手機……"],["彭主任委員金隆：打電話……"],["黃委員珊珊：打電話的那種，就是歹徒在操控他。這裡有個很可愛的新聞，日本大阪府直接立法禁止在ATM前使用手機打電話。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也有看到這個新聞。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這可能是一個可以阻詐的方向。主委，大家已經在做了，而且已經發現問題所在，所以邊領錢邊打電話可能就是詐騙的其中一部分，尤其是老人家，這部分是不是可以從今天開始給我一個你們可能可以做的時間表？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題，我們可以私底下提供給委員現在實務上的進度，因為很多事情不方便公開說。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，智能ATM可能是下一步；第二點，阻詐當然可以更便民；最重要的是，我們可以讓車手領不到錢，讓錢出不去，這個可能是最有效的方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，做一個警示的功能，讓ATM是有防護的。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有錯，而且看到人家戴口罩、戴安全帽去領錢的就可能會稍微看一下；第二個，如果有人邊打電話邊領ATM，後面的人也會提醒他一下，我想這是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們跨銀行的溝通機制裡面，我們隨時會有一些新的想法，都可以提出來……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們如果可以在第一時間，在他領錢的那一剎那讓他變得很困難，至少緩衝他被詐騙，或者是緩衝他領錢的機會，這可能也是一個想法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們還有想到很多其他的方式，我們儘量用低成本產生大效益。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我想這個是我們接下來要做的，用科技的方法、用AI辨識的方式，其實現在就可以阻掉一半，至少一千多件的ATM領款可能就會減少。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，接下來要問一下主委，有關國際……我們要做亞洲資產管理中心，剛剛也有很多同仁都已經問過了，其中很重要的一項是家族辦公室。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：家族資產的管理，在主委上任之前和之後我也跟主委討論過，為什麼臺灣常常看到非常非常多有錢人在打遺產爭奪官司？或者是他們自己的財產分配怎麼會做得這麼差？第三個，為什麼我們的法規還是會讓寫了遺囑的人不斷碰到各種爭端？最嚴重的是，我想問一下，這個亞洲資產主要是針對國外的客戶還是國內的客戶？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們很多的政策宣示上，這兩個都是我們爭取的對象。"],["黃委員珊珊：都是我們的客戶？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：等於把臺灣變成大家可以把錢放在這邊做好管理的地方，其中有一塊，我看到你們的東西……我看到信託公會有發聲明……第二個，我認為信託是資產管理很好的一個工具跟方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是目前看起來，就信託資產管理公司部分，我們現在是以銀行為第一委託人、受託人……"],["彭主任委員金隆：銀行本來就是信託業。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，信託其實是一個很好的方法，至少某個程度可以讓委託人有自由意志來指定他的財產受益人，但是看到我們跟國外很大的差異就是，我們只能指定受益人……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：在國外可以指定我的小孩、我的孫子、我的曾孫子，我未來不知道幾代的孫子都可以。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所謂的家族信託。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在的臺灣，目前這些法規能夠配得上嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實剛剛也有委員關切這一點，我們剛剛也有特別請法務部的同仁來說明，現在確實也有一個提案希望來修信託法，我們也答應委員會，未來我們跟法務部會再來想，修法……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果我們要跟國際接軌，要讓大家把資產放在臺灣管理的話，你可能必須要跟……不要說什麼，瑞士銀行為什麼可以幾百年，因為他們在幾百年前就接受了所謂的信託……"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實我們跟其他的……"],["黃委員珊珊：他們可以照顧家族一輩子，也可能到下輩子……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們要跟其他市場做競爭，很多法制應該要有一致性。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個可能是亞洲資產中心很重要的一塊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們推動的一環，我們會持續跟法務部合作。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為這是最重要的一環，否則臺灣早就有人把錢放到這邊來；第二個，還有剛剛講的地緣政治，我們要成為讓人家把錢放到這裡來會很放心的地方，我們就要做讓人放心的方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：有讓人放心的法規，並且能夠配合得上。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，請法務部也上來好嗎？最後一點時間，我想跟主委討論一下，上一次我問了有關虛擬貨幣的議題，現在美國川普總統已經把它作為戰爭儲備、政府的儲備；第二個，我們後來很好奇他用什麼儲備？他說他要去沒收……"],["彭主任委員金隆：扣押的。"],["黃委員珊珊：扣押的錢、扣押的虛幣，所以我們就跟法務部調了資料，臺灣政府也扣了很多虛幣，法務部知道我們現在扣了非常非常多的虛幣，價值大概有多少？"],["劉司長英秀：報告委員，非常不好意思，因為我不是這個業務的彙總單位。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，沒關係，那我就在這邊跟主委說明好了，法務部法律事務司沒有處理這個業務，沒關係，但是法務部提供的資料自去年4月到今年3月，比特幣1年扣押了將近203枚，折合臺幣是5.5億；以太幣兩千多枚，折合臺幣約1.47億，還有很多穩定幣。到目前為止，這些是政府扣押中的，它可能有幾個去處，第一個是拍賣，然後還給被害人；第二個是有一些被政府沒收，將來變成法務部的資產，可能是國家的資產。我上次有跟主委提過，有關虛擬資產業者要開始納管的事……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：關於這些將來可能的儲備，現在可能就要開始討論。我現在提供給你一個方向，假如我們也有扣押的虛幣，在儲備方面也可以作為金管會將來要訂定……"],["彭主任委員金隆：安全網的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，這部分可以跟法務部一起討論一下，有關未來如果發生虛幣的問題，虛幣的儲備要怎麼安排？如果美國政府可以做，那我們是不是有一些法案、法規要來一起修正？讓這些虛幣成為政府儲備的一部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我想這部分在未來建構市場上面，假如它是一個成熟安全的市場，遲早都會建立相關機制……"],["黃委員珊珊：遲早會來，只是什麼時候來？現在有的相關機制，我們可能就要開始先做預防，而且最重要的是，我覺得對於虛擬貨幣的納管，在臺灣應該會引起蠻多的迴響，接下去民眾投入的會更多，對於安全性，將來政府必須面對它、處理它，這個問題就在眼前，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分也請主委，上次你已經答應要給我一個初步的方向，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊。","接著請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5938f137bc39e6884ab992d8b3314b746c75f6b5b4b5fbf8cfaaab92e9403bad85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:32:47 - 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我想請一下賴長賜 謝謝賴市長好 委員好"},{"start":18.607,"end":37.655,"text":"次長好謝謝主席今天特別安排一個防洪抗旱的一個計畫專報因為你本來就是這方面的一個專家那我想說首先先關心一下就是目前石門水庫到新竹鐵通道目前進度如何進度是超前的大概有將近30"},{"start":40.888,"end":65.419,"text":"30%左右超前是因為我們往後延了一年嘛我們本來是115年超前不是往後延一年那往後延一年的部分以後我們是還考慮到包括一些物價啦的一個上漲還有包括我們現金流量不足因為現在的預算是有限的所以說你說基本上現在這個狀態是按照115年的進度就已經是超前了嗎"},{"start":68.81,"end":86.902,"text":"這個據我了解他應該可以稍微提前完工可以提前完工提前完工是按照116年的一個延後這個計畫是可以提前完工是這個意思嗎116年他是計畫期程那我們希望說依照比較計畫的期程來提前大概可以提前到什麼時候"},{"start":88.851,"end":103.941,"text":"大概116年左右116年上半年嗎應該我們會希望在上半年只要完工的話他會有一些比較顯著的效益因為一般我們缺水會在上半年的時候發生那我在想說"},{"start":105.101,"end":125.212,"text":"除了這個部分我們持續在追蹤這個進度之外因為這整個珍珠川的計畫其實算是一個好的計畫可是要怎麼樣把它落實是重要的那我想說在針對這個新竹的防災及備援水井的建置工程這邊的時候之前有特別提到要增加17口備援井 已經完工了沒"},{"start":126.293,"end":150.695,"text":"有13口的這個備援水井這個在109年跟110年就已經完成了那這個部分包括舊的部分現在都已經提前啟用現在保熱水庫可以蓄水率是滿酷的有一部分是在我們透過地瓢水跟地下水聯合運用的結果理解喔所以說我們這17口井是包含之前的14口嗎"},{"start":152.828,"end":178.744,"text":"對 包含原本的十字口總共是17口井嘛 對不對OK 那我想問一下因為我們現在這17口井的時候每日最多是供3.2萬噸嘛我看所有資料是這樣在寫可是我們當時在十字口井的時候呢我們當時就擔心到地層下陷的問題所以在千甲地區這邊的時候會造成地層下陷所以包括影響到那個頭前溪大橋68快速道路"},{"start":179.404,"end":199.424,"text":"然後台鐵、縱貫線、國道1號、高速公路等等他們橋墩的狀態所以對於這個部分的時候我們在使用這個備援井的部分有沒有什麼特別的一個限制使用備援井的部分第一個就是不要因為我提前使用備援井然後對於地表水或是農業灌溉用水可能會有影響"},{"start":200.523,"end":216.738,"text":"那第二個部分是 其實這些變原水井 既然我們找在那裡 我們就是評估過它對於地層下限不會有問題的都不會有問題 即使每天抽 抽很長的時間都不會有問題基本上我們會做一個所謂的安全抽取量的控制"},{"start":218.083,"end":245.886,"text":"OK 好 那這個沒有問題因為我在想說在新竹這個區域當中的時候其實大家對於這個供水的狀態其實是有點擔心的那因為那個我們按照那個DSET就是我們就是國科會下面的一個研究機構科學民主與社會研究中心他所提出來狀態是他認為因為未來先進製程會因為半導體產業的一個途徑式的需求會在2036年缺水"},{"start":246.747,"end":272.216,"text":"我想市長應該知道這個狀態對不對那個報告我有看過那個報告所引用的數字可能他研究的期間是在我們百年大旱之前那我們百年大旱之後剛剛委員所詢問到兩個重大工程包括所謂的聯通管包括蝙蝠水井這一些都是百年大旱之後我們就緊急提出來的區域水資源計畫情勢已經不一樣了第一個"},{"start":273.896,"end":291.244,"text":"目前半導體不管是新建中的或是運作中的先進的製程用水我們各個區域都是供給大於需求這供給大於需求不會有問題所以第二個部分因為半導體高科技的廠商"},{"start":291.784,"end":311.001,"text":"他承諾加入RE100所以他新建的這個廠區依照我們再生水資源發展條例他必須要使用一定比例的再生水而目前我們看到的不管是在新竹或是在高雄地區他承諾使用的比例都是遠高於法規的比例"},{"start":311.857,"end":328.359,"text":"那除此之外的話我們加速了包括台水公司19條的備沿幹管還有包括我們海水淡化廠這些蓋了之後事實上即便面對百年大旱的情境也都不會有問題不會蓄水率只有3%"},{"start":331.423,"end":345.86,"text":"因為你剛剛講的其實很清楚因為你剛剛又提到一個海蛋廠的部分因為新竹有建海蛋廠那因為新竹建海蛋廠一天10萬公噸的狀態剛好跟寶山二期台積電就是二奈米廠的量是一樣的"},{"start":346.761,"end":371.081,"text":"因為台積電這邊是9.7萬每一天所以說我們當時就會在想說海淡廠這邊可能跟台積電用水量其實有相關的可是我想請教次長你知道在晶圓廠當中的時候它的用水當中的結構它需要有很大量的一個超純淨水這超純淨水的部分你知道它要用到多少的一個它使用水量的占比嗎"},{"start":372.122,"end":394.62,"text":"它使用水量的占比在製程的部分差不多是將近7乘5左右7乘6這圖上面這邊有很清楚狀態那因為整個先進製程當中的時候它的超純水的占比需要用到76%那我們這邊提到了有很多的再生水的狀態跟海淡水的部分它基本上都不能夠用的"},{"start":395,"end":414.875,"text":"所以它必須要用到水庫的一個原本的自然水的狀態所以我們到時候這邊的時候是用一個大水庫的概念的時候讓海淡水跟再生水都用在消費上面還是要怎麼樣去做一個調整第一個"},{"start":416.041,"end":438.503,"text":"假設你剛剛講的這個高科技的用水是10萬噸左右他第一個他自己廠內的一直循環佔了三分之一那其他的三分之二由外部的水來補給那外部的水來補給的話事實上再生水的使用在即便是台南的先進製程都證實是沒有問題的"},{"start":442.149,"end":468.181,"text":"你說再生水的部分在台南的先進製程證實是沒有問題是哪一個先進製程他們自己也建了兩萬噸的這個再生水廠來運用所以這個部分是沒有問題的那至於說海水氮化的部分過去啊他們擔心所謂的微量的捧的元素那這個捧的元素也因為科技的發展跟進步他可以去去除"},{"start":468.621,"end":493.476,"text":"或是在製程上面它可以去做調節但是我還是要跟委員講我們做水這些供水的工程不是只為了高科技廠商使用我們是要讓整個區域裡面就如同委員所說的大系統大水庫的部分可以穩定那它可以穩定的一個情況之下的話產業也可以發展民生的用水也可以穩定這是我們的目標"},{"start":494.642,"end":511.211,"text":"OK那我就要這邊我要特別問到一個狀態因為在今年1月份的時候就是當時在刪減凍結預算的時候水利署這邊有特別提到的狀態是說因為他會減少100口的備用水井的啟用調查請問現在情況還是這樣子嗎"},{"start":513.53,"end":531.859,"text":"因為這114年的總預算我們大概被刪減了將近23億左右那這些所謂的剛剛的備用全國的備用水準這不是只有新竹市而已我們本來希望加速來完成加速來調查"},{"start":532.959,"end":542.731,"text":"那這個因為預算的縮減的關係我們期程必須要重新再做檢查那100口調查的狀態是預計大概會有多少井是可以去開鑿的"},{"start":545.678,"end":568.994,"text":"這個就是我們要做調查的一個目的因為我在看到一下我們之前所有的相關的一個預算的部分因為在整個水利署的預算比去年增加了204.4億增加百分之一點百分之100.8%那麼在第三幕的一個水利建設跟保育管理經費當中的時候呢比去年增加202億多了113%那麼在第四節當中的那個"},{"start":575.878,"end":601.629,"text":"河川海岸及排水環境營造這個部分的也比去年增加了66.4%其中跟地下水保育及水文觀測計畫裡面下面的備用水井規劃調查及雙北地區建置計畫只有3億元所以我想知道說你剛剛提到說整個經濟部被刪了23億的時候有多少會反映在這個地方會影響到這個部分"},{"start":602.469,"end":627.519,"text":"影響事實上蠻大的啦雖然說114年水利署的預算比113年還多那主要是第一個他是要投資未來第二個部分他是要去解決113年連續三個大颱風所造成的這些的災害理解 所以我特別關注在一個就是備援警的這個部分因為"},{"start":628.799,"end":651.358,"text":"經濟部這邊提出來的狀態是說因為被山跟洞的狀態所以影響到備援井的部分所以會影響到整個抗旱的一個量能所以我對這部分想說這麼多兩千多億的一個經濟部預算裡面只有三億是跟這個有關的可是他竟然用這個部分的時候來表示說會影響到整個的抗旱的一個計畫"},{"start":652.479,"end":663.512,"text":"所以針對這個部分我想說你把這個3億到時候會怎麼樣受影響或對於這些備援警這一百口備援警的狀態你可以本席一個很詳細的狀態因為我很難從整個2000多億的預算當中去影響到這3億的部分"},{"start":669.819,"end":691.497,"text":"然後3的部分又非常的少我們在一輪二輪的時候對於整個檢列數都非常的低而且真的有影響是凍結的部分凍結的部分你們提出說明就可以所以我比較難去理解說水利署說這一百口抗旱井會影響到抗旱的一個量能所以我想請次長這邊給我本席很清楚的一個狀態"},{"start":692.558,"end":710.548,"text":"因為他本身所佔的預算就很低我們又沒有3那動的部分的時候你們提出來狀態應該就可以解決所以我不太能夠去理解為什麼這一百口被援警的調查會影響到整個抗旱的那個量能這個資料我會送給委員那第二個部分是"},{"start":711.823,"end":732.842,"text":"那麼大的預算 其實每個預算他都有一個工作計劃 這個每個工作計劃都有他的需要性另外一個部分剛剛我們要討論到的 因為在經濟部的部分 坦白說我們整個經濟部因為在經濟部裡面被刪的部分已經算是非常的少了 我們在一輪當中的時候檢列數只有少少的"},{"start":735.168,"end":752.393,"text":"只有少少的一筆而已 其實非常的少啦不過有時候那個關鍵的少數對關鍵的工作就有很大的差異這沒問題 所以我想知道說這個這麼兩千多億的預算當中的三億當中在備援金當中的時候它的關鍵到哪裡去你請給本席一個很清楚的一個說法好不好好 沒有問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時32分）謝謝主席。我想請一下賴常次，謝謝。"],["主席：賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長好。謝謝主席今天特別安排防洪抗旱的計畫專報，因為你本來就是這方面的專家。首先，先關心一下石門水庫到新竹聯通管，目前進度如何？"],["賴次長建信：進度是超前的，大概有將近30%左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。超前是因為我們往後延了一年嘛！我們本來是115年要完工……"],["賴次長建信：超前不是往後延一年，往後延一年的部分，因為我們還考慮到包括一些物價上漲，還有包括我們的現金流量不足，因為現在的預算是有限的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是。所以你說基本上現在這個狀態是按照115年的進度，就已經是超前了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：據我瞭解，它應該可以稍微提前完工。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以提前完工。提前完工是按照116年的延後計畫，然後可以提前完工，是這個意思嘛？"],["賴次長建信：116年是計畫期程，我們希望比照計畫期程來提前。"],["鄭委員正鈐：大概可以提前到什麼時候？"],["賴次長建信：大概116年左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：116年，上半年嗎？"],["賴次長建信：我們會希望是在上半年，假如完工的話，它會有一些比較顯著的效益。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是！一般我們缺水會在上半年的時候發生，我在想除了這個部分，我們持續在追蹤這個進度之外，因為這整個珍珠串計畫其實算是一個好的計畫，可是要怎麼樣把它落實是重要的。","針對新竹的防災及備援水井的建置工程，之前有特別提到要增加17口備援井，已經完工了沒？"],["賴次長建信：有13口的備援水井，在109跟110年就已經完成了。這個部分，包括舊的部分，現在都已經提前啟用，現在寶二水庫蓄水率是滿庫的，有一部分是我們透過地表水跟地下水聯合運用的結果。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是、是，理解。所以這17口井是包含之前的14口嗎？"],["賴次長建信：對，13口。"],["鄭委員正鈐：包含原本的14口，總共是17口井，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：對、對！"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。我想問一下，因為我們現在這17口井，每日最多是供3.2萬噸，我看所有資料是這樣寫，可是在14口井的時候，我們當時就擔心地層下陷的問題，所以在千甲地區會造成地層下陷，包括會影響到頭前溪大橋、68快速道路、臺鐵縱貫線跟國道一號高速公路等等橋墩的狀態，對於這個部分，我們在使用備援井有沒有什麼特別的限制？"],["賴次長建信：使用備援井的部分，第一個，不要因為我提前使用備援井，對於地表水或是農業灌溉用水可能會有影響；第二個部分，其實這些備援水井，既然我們鑿在那邊，我們就是評估過，它對於地層下陷不會有問題的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。都不會有問題，即使每天抽、抽很長的時間都不會有問題？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們會做一個所謂的安全抽取量的控制。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，這個沒有問題。因為我想在新竹這個區域中，大家對於供水的狀態，其實是有點擔心的，因為我們按照DSET，就是國科會下面的一個研究機構──科技、民主與社會研究中心所提出來狀態，它認為未來先進製程會因為半導體產業突增式的需求，會在2036年缺水，我想次長應該知道這個狀態，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：我有看過那份報告，那份報告所引用的數字，可能它研究的期間是在我們百年大旱之前，而我們百年大旱之後，剛剛委員所詢問到兩個重大工程，包括所謂的聯通管，包括備援水井，這一些都是百年大旱之後，我們就緊急提出來的區域水資源計畫，情勢已經不一樣了。第一個，目前半導體，不管是興建中或是運作中的先進製程用水，各個區域都是供給大於需求。"],["鄭委員正鈐：供給大於需求嘛？"],["賴次長建信：對，不會有問題。第二個部分，因為半導體、高科技的廠商承諾加入RE100，所以它興建的廠區依照我們再生水資源發展條例，它必須要使用一定比例的再生水，目前我們看到的，不管是在新竹或是在高雄地區，它承諾使用的比例都是遠高於法規的比例，除此之外，我們加速包括台水公司19條的備援幹管，還有包括海水淡化廠，這些蓋了之後，事實上即便面對百年大旱的情境……"],["鄭委員正鈐：也都不會有問題？"],["賴次長建信：不會蓄水率只有3%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。次長，你講得其實很清楚，因為你剛剛又提到海淡廠的部分，因為新竹有建海淡廠，一天10萬公噸的狀態，剛好跟寶山二期台積電二奈米廠的量是一樣的，因為台積電每一天是9.7萬，所以我們當時就會想海淡廠可能跟台積電用水量其實有相關的。可是我想請教次長，你知道在晶圓廠用水當中的結構，它需要有很大量的超純淨水，在超純淨水的部分，你知道它要用到多少及使用水量的占比嗎？"],["賴次長建信：在製程的部分，它使用水量的占比，差不多是將近七成五左右啦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，七成六，這圖上面有很清楚的狀態。因為整個先進製程當中，它的超純水占比需要用到76%，我們這邊提到有很多的再生水狀態跟海淡水的部分，基本上它都不能夠用的，它必須要用到原本水庫自來水的狀態，所以我們到時候是用一個大水庫的概念，讓海淡水跟再生水都用在消費上面，還是要怎麼樣去做一個調整？"],["賴次長建信：假設你剛剛講的，高科技用水是10萬噸左右，第一個，它自己廠內一直循環的占了三分之一，其他的三分之二由外部的水來補給，以外部的水來補給的話，事實上再生水的使用即便是在臺南的先進製程，都被證實是沒有問題的。第二個部分……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你說再生水的部分，在臺南的先進製程也被證實是沒有問題，是哪一個先進製程？"],["賴次長建信：對，他們自己也建了2萬噸的再生水廠來運用，所以這個部分是沒有問題的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["賴次長建信：至於海水淡化的部分，過去他們擔心所謂微量的硼元素，這個硼的元素也因為科技的發展跟進步可以去除，或是在製程上面可以去做調節。但是我還是要跟委員講，我們做這些供水的工程不是只為了高科技廠商的使用……"],["鄭委員正鈐：當然，理解。"],["賴次長建信：我們是要讓整個區域裡面，就如同委員所說的大系統、大水庫的部分可以穩定，在它可以穩定的情況之下，產業可以發展，民生的用水也可以穩定，這是我們的目標。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，最後我要特別問到的是，因為在今年1月份在刪減、凍結預算的時候，水利署有特別提到一個狀態，就是會減少100口備用水井的啟用調查，請問現在的情況還是這樣子嗎？"],["賴次長建信：因為114年的總預算我們被刪減了將近23億左右，全國的備用水井不是只有新竹市而已。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，理解。"],["賴次長建信：我們本來希望加速完成，加速來調查，但因為預算縮減的關係，期程必須要重新再做檢討。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那100口水井調查，預計會有多少井是可以去開鑿的？"],["賴次長建信：這個就是我們要做調查的一個目的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。次長，我看到我們之前所有相關預算的部分，因為整個水利署的預算比去年增加了204.4億元，增加100.8%，那麼在第3目的「水利建設及保育管理」經費當中，比去年增加202億，多了113%，在第4節當中的「河川海岸及排水環境營造」這個部分也比去年增了66.4%，其中地下水保育及水文觀測計畫下面的備用水井規劃調查及雙北地區建置計畫只有3億元，所以我想知道，你剛剛提到整個經濟部被刪了23億，有多少會反映在這個地方，會影響到這個部分？"],["賴次長建信：影響事實上滿大的，雖然114年水利署的預算比113年還多，主要是：第一個，它是要投資未來；第二個部分，它是要去解決113年連續三個大颱風所造成的這一些災害……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，我特別關注備援井這個部分，經濟部提出來的是，因為被刪跟凍影響到備援井的部分，所以會影響到整個抗旱的量能，對於這部分，我想說兩千多億、這麼多的經濟部預算，裡面只有3億是跟這個有關的，可是它竟然用這個部分來表示會影響到整個抗旱的計畫，所以針對這個部分，我想請你把這3億到時候會怎麼樣影響這100口的備援井，給本席一個很詳細的說明，因為我很難從整個兩千多億的預算當中去了解影響到這3億的部分，然後刪的部分又非常地少，我們在一輪、二輪的時候整個減列數都非常地低，而且真的有影響的狀況也是凍結的部分，凍結部分你們提出說明就可以動支，所以我比較難去理解為什麼水利署說這100口抗旱井會影響到抗旱的量能，所以我想請次長給本席很清楚的說明。"],["賴次長建信：好的，這個沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為它本身所占的預算就很低，我們又沒有刪，凍的部分你們提出來應該就可以解決，所以我不太能夠理解，為什麼這100口備援井的調查會影響到整個抗旱的量能。"],["賴次長建信：這個資料我會送給委員。第二個部分，其實那麼大的預算，每個預算都有一個工作計畫，每個工作計畫都有它的需要性。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["賴次長建信：另外一個部分，剛剛我們沒有討論到的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為在經濟部的部分，坦白說，被刪的部分已經算是非常地少了，我們在一輪的時候，減列數只有少少的一筆而已，其實非常地少。"],["賴次長建信：有時候那個關鍵的少數對於關鍵的工作就有很大的影響。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這沒問題，所以我想知道兩千多億預算當中的3億，對於備援井的關鍵影響在哪裡，請你給本席一個很清楚的說法，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：好，沒有問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員我想剛剛提到有兩個問題一個就是說"},{"start":131.764,"end":158.082,"text":"整併是不是未來我們金融業發展的方向特別是我們面對國際競爭的時候我想這個絕對是一個方向之一那對不起那主委我接著問你你上次也提過我也同意因為過於零散怎麼樣更競爭力達到國際的一定的水準跟標準那到底以台灣目前這麼多家多少的數字整併成多少的數字五家七家什麼樣的一個數字才是合理的"},{"start":158.733,"end":178.86,"text":"其實跟委員報告我研究這個議題超過20年我覺得不可以陷入在數字的迷思因為數字本身會跟相對的不同市場的結構有不同我是覺得應該是這樣數字本身它比如說今天14家15家10幾家這其實重點不在這邊那達到多少的就是說"},{"start":179.8,"end":205.773,"text":"整併之後達到多少的規模才是你認為是優質的一個合併的方式所謂的優質的整併就是說雙方有共同的目標整併的結果是雙方所有共識而且是朝向一個共同目標那當然就是說規模這件事情要看你要在什麼地方你的主要鎖定你的策略群組的競爭對手是誰"},{"start":207.734,"end":223.991,"text":"那這不能 假設我今天要打亞洲杯或是打比如本土杯或是當你要進軍到全世界我們現在要打的是世界杯沒有 我覺得世界杯就是一樣我們必須很務實就像我們台灣現在很多的金融特別我們金控公司在亞洲已經開始有它的能見度"},{"start":224.872,"end":238.919,"text":"但是又說但是我們要先打亞洲盃再打世界盃嗎那如何打到亞洲盃所以你剛剛講了幾個條件我都很清楚優質的合併啦在內部的溝通這個都是基本的ABC這是標準流程我都很清楚"},{"start":240.9,"end":257.255,"text":"當然診病是一個方向那到底這個金融的產業佔我們GDP的多少你認為才是一個合理的數字我想其實就從整個國際上數字沒有一個所謂的因為這個牽涉到你的分母跟分子的問題當然但是要達到你的目標你覺得多少是一個合理的數字"},{"start":257.575,"end":279.153,"text":"當然我覺得說以台灣的金融業最近幾年的重要性我當然希望這個比例能夠提升提升到多少?你的目標是多少?因為你過去是教授你一定有這一方面去教導學生那你現在再回到今晚會主委這個位置你總是有一個目標跟想法嘛你不會沒有設定目標嘛你很清楚你現在主委不肯回應我"},{"start":280.074,"end":301.45,"text":"我不是不會回應 因為我沒有根據的事情我不會隨便的去那目標在哪裡或者是說多少年可以達到你有沒有目標就是說多久之內可以達到那這個數字大概是多少你覺得我們要發展金融管理中心它才是一個有競爭力的管理中心或者一樣又跑到其他國家去我們變成是口號而已啊"},{"start":303.892,"end":318.261,"text":"因為這是一個分子分母之間的關係至少我們的金融業的成長不應該落後於我們的GDP的成長分母這絕對應該是這樣的但我們比較其他國家很多這個比例來看的話它的產業結構不同"},{"start":320.073,"end":342.746,"text":"他比如說有些國家專注於在金融服務業那他的分子當然特別的大但他整個GDP他就占一個最大塊那你用這個來比我覺得是很難假設是一個產業非常非常大的那個國家來比的話那不見得這個比率的上升下跌說不定是我金融業產生但我GDP縮水了那這樣也有這樣的結果但是我覺得應該是金融業應該經濟同步成長就是說我們能至少"},{"start":343.046,"end":360.674,"text":"那以現在台灣的經濟成長你覺得以今年好了以今年台灣經濟成長或過去三年經濟成長你認為應該佔比多少才是一個讓我們台灣的金融行業是一個有足夠競爭力在亞洲我先不講世界先講亞洲好了"},{"start":361.574,"end":376.663,"text":"如果說假定我們的分母是不動的話當然我們的金融業持續成長那個比例就會上升但是我覺得這不太可能這個其實我跟委員報告不是說沒辦法跟你報告這個數字確實這很難用這樣的衡量因為我的分母也會大我的分子也會大"},{"start":378.064,"end":385.872,"text":"對 沒關係 你有很多衡量的指標跟數字但是我還是希望不管分母是什麼 數字是什麼有多少的係數跟風險因素在裡頭我覺得既然我們已經設定目標那就要更清楚的讓我們大家都知道你怎麼去設定那多少其他配合才有機會達到那樣子的目標"},{"start":397.625,"end":405.857,"text":"否則我們今天在這邊排專報或者是你過去說你一直在喊說要成立亞洲的資產管理中心我們擔心就會變成是口號所以具體怎麼去實現它是很重要的那亞洲沒關係"},{"start":413.227,"end":425.743,"text":"亞洲的資產管理中心如何流財引用是非常重要的過去我們就有四支箭如何吸引保險業者投資台灣的公共建設我們都非常清楚台灣的受險業目前的資產規模是32兆"},{"start":430.248,"end":454.285,"text":"海外投資大概佔了45%也就是14.4兆元我們有四支鍵包括你之前提到包括讓我們保險的投資公共建設可以投資公共建設然後我們風險係數要降低包括擴大保險業可以投資公共建設並且納入促參公共建設有四支鍵但是保險業最關心的你也非常清楚就是兩個核心問題"},{"start":455.586,"end":474.571,"text":"有沒有投資標的還有投資的方式是什麼那在投資標的的部分因為對於塑形業來說他一定要賺錢否則很難跟保護交代那所以我們政府如何搭建一個更完整的平台譬如說你的收益率包括風險評估要必須公開包括我們儘管我們要哪些投資標的是要夠他可以看得到你才有辦法留錢留這些錢放在台灣投資嘛"},{"start":485.154,"end":513.442,"text":"那我們現在這樣的平台包括跟國發會有沒有做可不可以做得到那是不是已經上線了既然我們四支箭從去年12月已經喊了那到目前有沒有這樣子的網路相關的資訊資料可以讓壽險業去做完整的評估有沒有是謝委員剛剛提到我稍微提供一下比較新的數字我們大概37兆的資產沒關係數字不重要就是你的投資標的跟投資的方式夠不夠完整"},{"start":514.842,"end":542.43,"text":"剛剛委員的部分就講了就是我們現在在由國發會主政跟財政部跟我們金管會有個兆元投資計畫有個平台那個平台裡面就會揭示我們所有的大概相關比如說我們有跟產業有產業提案還有由政府來提案的部分我們大概就是一個個針對這個案源去做分析看有沒有具有未來商品已經有了是不是已經上網上線公開了那另外一個就是固定收益的部分因為這是受險業者不可能"},{"start":543.19,"end":566.354,"text":"實際下去經營對他來說最簡單的就是一個固定收益的部分所以過去我有提到公共建設證券化的部分其實對於業者來說是比較具有吸引力的那這個部分上次你們說要評估諸位也回應我說要評估那有沒有做有沒有打算做那具體時間大概還要多久現在我們在公建的證券化部分現在走的比較快的是債券化"},{"start":567.254,"end":581.731,"text":"就是發永續債這些東西呢 實際上這個債券化是比較快速的而且這邊呢 現在成熟度比較高那至於說發行其他的 比如說比較偏權益相關的有價證券那個比較複雜 這個我們還在繼續努力做我知道比較複雜 但是對於業者來說是不是會"},{"start":585.976,"end":603.998,"text":"也一樣有吸引力我覺得雖然比較複雜我們該做還是要去做那當然就是我們要創造萬一創造出來就不符合我們投資人的需要那當然是就比較事倍功半但我們嘗試去尋找跨部會的協商尋找更多可能未來公建的案源"},{"start":604.799,"end":619.439,"text":"是 包括 主委那我就要請教你就是說我們要留錢留錢放在把這些錢資源資金留在台灣其實很重要的一個因素就是大家會去考量是一個地緣政治的因素"},{"start":620.561,"end":640.843,"text":"投資其實除了會不會獲利之外地緣政治就是一個很好他們也對於投資者來說他也會去做評估包括巴菲特他之前2022年他有台積電ADR但是他持不到一季他就把它賣掉了對他來說他可能損失了將近2000億台幣所以體質包括台積電這麼好的公司"},{"start":641.624,"end":658.037,"text":"巴菲特居然在手持不到一季之後他就把它賣掉所以可見地緣政治他也承認是一個他評估非常重要的一個指標所以國際資本在追求獲利投資回報的同時他同時必須要去兼顧到風險的管控"},{"start":659.898,"end":679.964,"text":"所以在這邊我要再次的提醒主委我們亞洲的資產管理中心能不能成功其實地緣政治也是一個國際資本考慮的一個重要的指標跟方向所以我覺得在這一塊你一定要有機會跟卓院長跟總統反映這件事情"},{"start":681.104,"end":709.858,"text":"我不知道巴菲特有沒有後悔啦我只是說但是就是說我們不會因為有困難而不推我們有我們的優勢我們按照發揮我們的優勢當然我們有我們的優勢但是我們怎麼樣留住國際的資金放在台灣包括國際的資金也都承認我們在地緣政治上確實是一個評估重要的考量所以台灣的地緣政治的穩定度環境的穩定度也是一個國際資本能不能留在台灣重要的指標"},{"start":710.598,"end":710.76,"text":"好吧謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":893,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時26分）慢慢來，喝完水再上。好，我請主委還有國發會的處長。"],["主席：好，請主委跟國發會處長。"],["李委員彥秀：今天處長是？"],["主席：邱處長。"],["李委員彥秀：邱處長，好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主委好、邱處長好。我想先就金融併購的問題來跟主委做討論，主委，我去年7月份的時候，我有關注到我們整體臺灣的金融業的規模到底夠不夠大，在國際上跟國際型的金控公司相比，事實上我們目前在全球的總資產，在金控的部分想要排前50名恐怕都有一點困難，即便是我們臺灣目前的國泰金跟富邦金合併才勉強達到我們的最低門檻22.5兆元，就是說我們臺灣雖然銀行數夠多，但是過於零散，在國際性的大型銀行的部分，其實我們這一部分也還沒有辦法達到國際一定的水準，所以也就是說，我們現在臺灣整體的金融業是面臨巨大的挑戰，所以我們看到20年前星展銀行在哪裡，我們都還看不到，所以我上次才跟您提到說我們如何打世界盃，您上次也跟我回應說我們透過優質的併購也是一個方向，還有什麼其他的方式。我們現在金融產業，過去一、二十年，我們人才都投資到台積電高科技產業去，還有就是傳統產業，我們現在金融產業占GDP的比例大概只有維持6%左右，我們現在要推亞洲的金融中心、資產管理中心，到底我們金融行業占臺灣的GDP多少，你認為才是一個合理的比例？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員，我想剛剛提到有兩個問題，一個就是說整併是不是未來我們金融業發展的方向，特別是我們面對國際競爭的時候，我想這個絕對是一個方向之一，當我們要……"],["李委員彥秀：對不起，那主委我接著問你，你上次也提過，我也同意，因為過於零散，怎麼樣更競爭力，達到國際一定的水準跟標準，到底以臺灣目前這麼多家，多少的數字整併成多少的數字，5家、7家，什麼樣的一個數字才是合理的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實跟委員報告，我研究這議題超過20年，我覺得不可以陷入在數字的迷思，因為數字本身會跟相對的不同市場的結構而有不同，我是覺得應該是這樣，數字本身它比如說今天14家、15家、十幾家，這其實重點不在這邊……"],["李委員彥秀：那整併之後達到多少的規模才是你認為優質的合併方式？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所謂的優質整併就是說雙方有共同的目標……"],["李委員彥秀：這個我知道，因為我今天很多議題要請問主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我知道，整併的結果是雙方有共識而且是朝向一個目標。"],["李委員彥秀：這個我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然就是說，規模這件事情要看你要在什麼地方，你主要鎖定的策略群組的競爭對手是誰？這部分假設我今天要打亞洲盃或是打比如說本土盃，或是當你要進軍全世界……"],["李委員彥秀：我們現在要打的是世界盃。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我覺得世界盃就是……一樣我們必須很務實，就像我們臺灣現在很多的金融，特別我們金控公司在亞洲已經開始有它的能見度，對不對？但是就是說……"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們要先打亞洲盃，再打世界盃，那如何打到亞洲盃？所以你剛剛講的幾個條件我都很清楚，優質的合併、內部的溝通等都是基本的A、B、C，這是標準流程，我都很清楚。當然整併是一個方向，到底金融產業占我們GDP多少你認為才是合理的數字？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實就從整個國際上，數字沒有所謂的……因為這個牽涉到你的分母跟分子的問題。"],["李委員彥秀：當然，但是要達到你的目標，你覺得多少是一個合理的數字？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得以臺灣金融業最近幾年的重要性，我當然希望這個比例能夠提升。但是……"],["李委員彥秀：提升到多少？你的目標是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是假設……"],["李委員彥秀：因為你過去是教授，你一定在這一方面有教導學生，那你現在再回到金管會主委這個位置，你總是有一個目標跟想法嘛！你不會沒有設定目標，你很清楚，只是現在主委不肯回應我。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我不是不回應，因為沒有根據的事情，我不會隨便地講。"],["李委員彥秀：那目標在哪裡，或者說多少年可以達到？你有沒有目標就是說多久之內可以達到？這個數字大概是多少，你覺得我們要發展金融管理中心才是一個有競爭力的管理中心？否則一樣又跑到其他國家去，我們變成是口號而已。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得因為這是一個分子、分母之間的關係，至少我們金融業的成長不應該落後於我們GDP的成長分母，絕對應該是這樣的。但是比如說我們比較其他國家的很多比例來看的話，它的產業結構不同，對不對？比如說有些國家專注在金融服務業，它的分子當然特別的大，它整個GDP就占最大塊，那你用這個來比，我覺得很難，假設一個產業非常非常大的國家來比的話，不見得這個比例的上升、下跌，說不定是我的金融業上升，但是我的GDP縮水了，也有這樣的結果，所以我覺得金融業應該與經濟同步成長，就是說我們至少……"],["李委員彥秀：以現在臺灣的經濟成長，以今年好了，以今年臺灣經濟成長或過去三年經濟成長，你認為應該占比多少才是讓臺灣的金融行業有足夠競爭力，在亞洲好了，我先不講世界，先講亞洲好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果說假定我們的分母是不動的話，當然我們的金融業持續成長，那個比例就會上升，但是我覺得這不太可能。"],["李委員彥秀：多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，其實我跟委員報告，不是說我沒辦法跟你報告這數字，確實這很難用這樣衡量，因為我的分母會大，分子也會大，實際上會有個相對的關係。"],["李委員彥秀：不過，主委，沒關係，你有很多衡量的指標跟數字，但是我還是希望不管分母是什麼、數字是什麼，有多少的係數跟風險因素在裡頭，我覺得既然我們已經設定目標，那就要更清楚地讓我們大家都知道你怎麼去設定，其他要配合多少才有機會達到那樣的目標，否則我們今天在這邊排專報或者是你過去一直喊說要成立亞洲資產管理中心，我們擔心就會變成口號，所以具體怎麼實現它是很重要的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實我們在……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，主委，亞洲資產管理中心如何留才引資是非常重要的，過去我們就有4支箭，如何吸引保險業者投資臺灣的公共建設，我們都非常清楚臺灣的壽險業目前的資產規模是32兆，海外投資大概占了45%，也就是14.4兆元，那我們有4支箭，你之前提到包括讓我們保險投資可以投資公共建設，然後風險係數要降低，包括擴大保險業可以投資公共建設並且納入促參公共建設，有4支箭，但是保險業最關心的，你也非常清楚，就是兩個核心問題，有沒有投資標的，還有投資的方式是什麼？在投資標的的部分，因為對於壽險業來說，它一定要賺錢，否則很難跟保戶交代。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：所以政府如何搭建一個更完整的平臺，譬如說，你的收益率包括風險評估必須要公開，包括有哪些投資標的要夠它可以看得到，你才有辦法留這些錢放在臺灣投資，那現在這樣的平臺，包括國發會有沒有做、可不可以做得到？是不是已經上線了？既然我們4支箭從去年12月已經喊了，到目前網路上有沒有這樣子的相關資訊、資料，可以讓壽險業去做完整的評估，有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。剛剛提到的，我稍微提供比較新的數字，我們大概37兆的資產……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，數字不重要，就是你的投資標的跟投資的方式夠不夠完整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員講的就是我們現在由國發會主政，與財政部、金管會有個兆元投資計畫、有個平臺，那個平臺裡面就會揭示所有的，比如說有產業的提案，還有由政府來提案的部分，我們大概就是一個個針對案源去做分析，看有沒有具有未來……"],["李委員彥秀：已經有了是不是？已經上網、上線公開了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，有這個平臺。"],["李委員彥秀：好，另外一個就是固定收益的部分，因為這些壽險業者不可能實際下去經營，對他來說最簡單的就是固定收益的部分，所以過去我有提到公共建設證券化的部分，其實對於業者來說是比較具有吸引力的，這個部分上次你們說要評估，主委也回應我說要評估，有沒有做？有沒有打算做？具體的時間大概還要多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們在公建證券化的部分，走得比較快的是債券化，就是發永續債，這些實際上債券化是比較快速的，而且這邊現在成熟度比較高。至於說發行其他的，比如說比較偏權益相關的有價證券，那個比較複雜，我們還在繼續努力當中。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道比較複雜，但是對於業者來說是不是也一樣會有吸引力？我覺得雖然比較複雜，該做的還是要去做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然就是我們要創造，萬一創造出來不符合投資人的需要，當然是比較事倍功半，但是我們嘗試去尋找跨部會的協商，尋找更多未來可能的公建案源。"],["李委員彥秀：是，主委，我就要請教你，我們要留錢，把這些錢、資源、資金留在臺灣，其實很重要的一個因素就是大家會考量地緣政治的因素。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：投資其實除了會不會獲利之外，地緣政治對於投資者來說，他也會去做評估，包括巴菲特，之前2022年他有台積電ADR，但是他持不到一季就把它賣掉了，對他來說，他可能損失了將近兩千億臺幣，所以包括台積電體質這麼好的公司，巴菲特居然在手持一季之後，他就把它賣掉。所以可見地緣政治他也承認是一個他評估非常重要的指標，國際資本在追求獲利、投資回報的同時，他必須要兼顧到風險的管控。所以在這邊我要再次的提醒主委，我們亞洲資產管理中心能不能成功，其實地緣政治也是國際資本考慮的一個重要指標跟方向。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得在這一塊你一定要有機會跟卓院長、跟總統反映這件事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我不知道巴菲特有沒有後悔，我們不會因為有困難而不推，我們有我們的優勢，我們會發揮我們的優勢。"],["李委員彥秀：當然我們有我們的優勢，但是我們怎麼樣留住國際資金放在臺灣，包括國際資金也都承認我們在地緣政治上……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，也是強化我們的安全性。"],["李委員彥秀：確實是一個評估重要的考量。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：所以臺灣地緣政治的穩定度、環境的穩定度也是國際資本能不能留在臺灣的重要指標，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭主任委員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OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e512119e6ada5d66e0ab992d8b3314b746c75f6b5b4b5fbf8c9258d6461fda9c085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:20:09 - 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對不對這兩個災害不可能同時發生嘛"},{"start":67.723,"end":93.284,"text":"水太縮 水太少 有時候一夕之間就反轉過去很多的記錄是對 以long term來看不可能說兩個致災性或者巨大致災不可能同時發生一定是有它的間歇性那以發生頻率來看我覺得是近幾年來大概有百年大旱因為幾年颱風都沒進來那這個反而是如果說正常性一年有五六個颱風入境台灣"},{"start":96.69,"end":111.615,"text":"那它帶來的這個雨會造成自災性的這個水患反而它頻率比較大那我今天為什麼請這個國科會副主委國科會這個副主委請教一下科學園區的防洪"},{"start":113.593,"end":127.285,"text":"是你們負責還是水利署來負責?園區是我們負責你們負責你們看你們報告完全沒有關於這個園區的防洪抗災防洪計畫不要說抗災啦防洪計畫就好了因為你今天只是請中科欸"},{"start":128.476,"end":142.234,"text":"為什麼南科沒有來那個 那個南科就沒有問題嗎不是 是中科統一負責所有的業務那基本上我們都是照中科統一 這個我覺得有問題輪值 我們是輪值 對還要輪值啊對對中科了解南科的這個這個繁紅的狀況嗎"},{"start":144.096,"end":172.85,"text":"了解了解因為我們都彙整到我們的那個國科會我們都是一起去討論的那如果南科發生這個自災性的這個洪災的時候我要打電話去中科請中科來支援啊不是不是我們是規劃的時候一起彙整而已這個你們要檢討一下我現在才知道說為什麼是中科負責全國科學園區未來科學園區越來越多連高雄屏東嘉義都有沒有跟委員報告是輪值可能明明就會換到那個"},{"start":175.47,"end":200.071,"text":"你應該是一個獨立的由南科有一個抗災防洪小組中科有一個小組然後竹科有一個小組他不可能輪值去管全國的科學園區的防洪或者這個防洪的規劃是跟我們報告他是輪值彙整其實是各個園區自行規劃是這個你們自錄再檢討一下是好那個今天的報告請教一下經濟部副大次長"},{"start":203.217,"end":227.673,"text":"四月份北中南東各區召開防汛準備會議我認為應該是各縣市你應該落實到各縣市比如說南區來說南區裡面包括澎湖、嘉義、南對不對到屏東這個各縣市的防洪狀況不一樣我認為你應該落實到各縣市多幾次的會議而已要說得很清楚"},{"start":229.544,"end":243.082,"text":"比方說這個高雄你有點寶溪治水防洪那個還有這個後津溪治水防洪屏東還有屏東的問題 嘉義的問題 台南的問題啊你不能一個區分市場你就把它辦完了沒有"},{"start":244.054,"end":268.866,"text":"跟委員所說明的我們每一個縣市會從核酸分屬先檢討如委員所說的方式每一個流域每一個風險點都盤點出來那至於說四個分區的部分是把每一個縣市檢討出來可改善的部分在當地馬上就要處理了我認為應該是這樣擴大到各區分散到各區然後縣市所長都要列席"},{"start":270.359,"end":275.873,"text":"因為縣市首長是第一線的指揮官所以我希望說要落實到各縣市"},{"start":276.755,"end":303.146,"text":"是 我們現在看到的話各縣市的首長大部分都會在訊息之前召開當地的縣市的黃訊的會議那是地方型的 那是縣市主管的但你跟中央地方在訊息之中要怎麼合作我希望要落實以縣市為主好 謝謝委員建議 再往內進進另外啊 對抽水站跟這個水門跟抽水機的管理你現在都委外對不對"},{"start":304.825,"end":332.833,"text":"基本上我們有自己的所謂的自己可以動用的這個抽水機很大部分是委外我知道嘛每一個抽水站大部分它有它這個委外的公司委外有管理員在那邊管理這個抽水站那個有時候開這個閘門要打開的時候沒打該關的時候沒關會造成自災所以這部分你要怎麼去檢討這個廠商的責任第一個所有的設施包括移動式的抽水機我們有一個QR code"},{"start":333.513,"end":359.305,"text":"他現在在哪個地方 他的妥善率怎麼樣他這個馬上可以回傳 聯繫的機制一定要很完整讓里長 讓區長能夠迅速能夠掌握到這個水閘門的狀況什麼時候開 什麼時候關 什麼時候閉所以這部分是不是可以落實一下這個對水閘門或者這個戳水站 戳水機相關的管理可以嗎這個我們已經有在 但是委員所說的我們在盡興"},{"start":360.834,"end":373.071,"text":"另外這個再生水廠原本是在高雄是沒有在北高雄是沒有是臨海跟鳳山嘛那我這邊不曉得講了幾次之後才多了這個鋼橋那請內政部來好了鋼橋跟這個楠梓"},{"start":377.236,"end":391.073,"text":"好 那目前這兩個再生水廠當然是使你有這個汙水下水道 雨水下水道你才能有再生水廠對不對對好 再生水廠在這個市中心或者是在都會區市商隊可以的"},{"start":392.222,"end":418.502,"text":"所以才有這個條件可以設立這個南子戰車水場跟鋼橋戰車水場那也是我的大力爭取才有的這戰車水場是日後要提供於產業園區的廠商所使用對不對目前相關的辦法 比如說你們修正的戰車水辦法這個只要兩萬度以上的工業大戶 對不對要五成以上的這個戰車水的使用是不是有這個規定"},{"start":420.206,"end":448.631,"text":"好 如果這樣的規定的話 未來越來越多廠商進駐 而且都是大廠它每年一定超過兩萬度 你舊廠要新擴 或者你要蓋新廠比如台積電 未來可能有一廠 二廠 三廠 四廠 五廠還有相當的 相關其他的供應鏈也會進駐那你都要求到兩萬噸以上 他們都符合這個條件那你會不會供不應求 戰士水目前以剛巧的狀況來看 跟男子"},{"start":452.587,"end":477.039,"text":"如果全部的廠商用水通常用戰生水目前有這個供不應求的狀況是存在的我是特別針對這個所謂男子產業園區跟路族跟這個橋樓科學園區跟白浦未來白浦產業園區那麼多大型廠商的進駐你現在用這個條例以每年每三年來檢討一次而且還有五成的戰生水但你未來沒有辦法供應他如果違法怎麼辦"},{"start":480.302,"end":501.938,"text":"跟委員說明 就再生水的部分目前如果產業有這個需求我們會重新來加大再生水的一個供水的一個能量那你的能量就有限啊你剛才教男子我們努力原本是沒有原本是零我至於說才有7萬噸那7萬噸你可以符合未來他需求符合你法律規定的需求嗎的要求嗎對 要用5成以上"},{"start":506.03,"end":533.925,"text":"現在它的價格 我請教你再生水的每度大概多少錢那個以那個鳳山來講它大概是18塊18港橋大概是會到35塊35塊那很多的大廠都在港橋橋頭科學園區以及男子產業園區好 要30塊那你現在一般的供應用水一度多少錢一般的供應用水水價差不多12塊好"},{"start":535.031,"end":538.698,"text":"加上耗水費的14 零五個場上你會選擇什麼"},{"start":544.226,"end":573.411,"text":"那基本上這個耗水費是有針對於說不同的這個用戶的級距若是它回收率太低的話它的費率會更高有一千七百家用水大戶都是工業大戶對不對所以耗水費它對工業大戶也有產生去輸出力另外的它這個再生水的比例也符合這個也要按照這個規定那他們怎麼辦基本上你的供不應求啊市長"},{"start":574.608,"end":591.357,"text":"我們會第一個會請內政部加速那剛剛所提到的那個16座的這個再生水廠的建置之外除此之外因為他不是廠建完他就可以供水因為他要收集到都市的所謂的集中性 據我了解再生水廠的進度遠比他們設廠的進度還慢"},{"start":594.278,"end":610.264,"text":"他們用再生水的時候還沒有供水啊你們給他用未雨綢繆這個狀況如果不是因為我爭取才多了7萬噸否則你這個沒有辦法完成這個達成這個對高科技廠商或者這個用水大戶的這個再生水的供應"},{"start":611.801,"end":637.398,"text":"這部分我想請市長你協調一下這個這個內政部國路署協調一下這個園區管理局那個科學園區管理局相關於園區的治水防洪的作為應該有一個統一的主管機關由經濟部來督導來協調另外因為你們是治水專家嘛國科會不見得治水專家但是國科會"},{"start":638.138,"end":659.608,"text":"那所管的科學園區裡面的這個罰紅制也至關重要啊科學園區不能有淹水的問題啊所以你應該拉高層級由經濟部的這個水利專家經濟部水利署來針對各園區管理局科學園區另外針對這個再淹水的部分怎麼去檢討他的這個供應的問題另外這個"},{"start":662.981,"end":691.073,"text":"污水這個下水道啊污水下水道在內政部我也想請教一下過去都會區啊六都的都會區沒有問題但是六都裡面非都會區啊比方說我的選區是六都裡面高雄市裡面非都會區比方說從這個橋頭以北入竹永安這個彌陀子關比較海線的地方都沒有任何污水下水道的規劃啦這部分這個內政部有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":692.233,"end":717.802,"text":"都計區內我們大概就是依照那個各縣政府提報的計畫來配合來協助來以補助執行至於非都地區目前我們行政院也在討論如何對非都地區的這些聚落室來做一個處理這個目前行政院在研議當中你知道我也想在鹿竹有一個蓋一個這個再生水場但是他沒有污水跟雨水下水道系統他就沒有辦法蓋再生水場"},{"start":720.394,"end":749.193,"text":"這個部分我們回去再來檢討一下啦那當然這個有跟量的問題啦如果那個沾水場實在量很少的時候其實它是完全不符成本的它可能後來算在水價廠商用不起來那你要先建構好污水、雨水、下水道系統才能有足夠的量嘛那你看我的選區全部都是沒有任何污水、下水道的建設規劃甚至沒有開辦這部分中央要協調地方來提出計畫所以我們再跟高雄市我們再來討論好 謝謝"},{"start":751.106,"end":751.127,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時20分）謝謝，請經濟部賴常務次長、國科會林副主委。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：請賴次長、林副主委。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：次長，今天的議題是抗旱和防洪，基本上這是兩個極端的議題，大家都希望風調雨順，但是事實上是天有不測風雲，旱災和水災並不是現在才有，並不是完全因為極端氣候造成的，以前當然有水災也有旱災，但是因為極端氣候造成發生的頻率會增加或規模會擴大，或是它的不可測性會增加，所以以我的觀察，目前抗旱和防洪不可能同時成立，這兩個災害不可能同時發生，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：水太多、水太少有時候一夕之間就反轉，過去很多的紀錄是……"],["邱委員志偉：以long term來看，兩個致災性或是巨大致災不可能同時發生，一定是有間歇性。以發生的頻率來看，我覺得近幾年來有了百年大旱，因為那幾年颱風都沒進來，如果正常性一年有5、6個颱風入境臺灣，那麼帶來的雨會造成致災性水患，反而頻率比較大。","請教國科會副主委，科學園區的防洪是你們負責，還是水利署負責？"],["林副主任委員法正：園區是我們負責。"],["邱委員志偉：是你們負責，但是看你們的報告完全沒有關於園區的防洪計畫，不要說它抗災，防洪計畫就好了，今天你們只請中科列席，為什麼南科沒有來？南科就沒有問題嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：不是，是中科統一負責所有的業務，基本上，我們都是按照輪值的……"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這個有問題。"],["林副主任委員法正：我們是輪值。"],["邱委員志偉：還要輪值啊！"],["林副主任委員法正：對。"],["邱委員志偉：中科瞭解南科的防洪狀況嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：瞭解？"],["林副主任委員法正：因為我們都是彙整到國科會一起去討論的。"],["邱委員志偉：如果南科發生致災性洪災的時候，我還要打電話去中科，請中科來支援嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：不是，我們是規劃的時候一起彙整而已。"],["邱委員志偉：這個你們要檢討一下，我現在才知道為什麼是中科負責全國的科學園區，未來科學園區會越來越多，連高雄、屏東、嘉義都有。"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，我們是輪值，可能明年就會換到……我們是半年輪值一次。"],["邱委員志偉：你們應該是獨立的，比如南科有一個抗災防洪小組，中科有一個小組，竹科有一個小組，不可能輪值去管全國科學園區的防洪或者防洪規劃。"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，它是輪值彙整，其實還是各個園區自行規劃。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的制度再檢討一下。"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：關於今天的報告請教經濟部賴次長，4月份北、中、南、東各區召開防汛整備會議，我認為你應該要落實到各縣市，比如，以南區來講，南區包括澎湖、嘉義以南到屏東，因為各縣市的防洪狀況不一樣，我認為你應該落實到各縣市，多開幾次會議而已，而且要講得很細，比方，高雄有典寶溪治水防洪，還有後勁溪治水防洪，屏東還有屏東的問題，嘉義有嘉義的問題，臺南有臺南的問題，你不能一個區分四場就要把它辦完。"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，我們每一個縣市會從河川分署先檢討，誠如委員所說的方式，把每一個流域、每一個風險點都盤點出來，至於四個分區的部分是把每一個縣市檢討出來，可改善的部分在當地馬上就要處理了。"],["邱委員志偉：我認為應該是要擴大到各區、分散到各區，而且縣市首長都要列席，因為縣市首長是第一線的指揮官，所以我希望要落實到各縣市。"],["賴次長建信：我們現在看到各縣市首長大部分都會在汛期之前召開當地縣市的防汛會議。"],["邱委員志偉：那是地方型的，那是縣市主管的，跟中央地方之間在汛期中要怎麼合作，我希望要落實以縣市為主。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員的建議，這個我們再來精進。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，抽水站、水門及抽水機的管理，你們現在都委外，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們有自己可以動用的抽水機。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道大部分都是委外，每一個抽水站大部分有委外的公司，委外有管理員在那邊管理抽水站，有時候閘門要打開的時候沒打開，該關的時候沒關，就會致災，所以你要怎麼去檢討這個廠商的責任？"],["賴次長建信：第一個，所有的設施包括移動式的抽水機，我們有一個QR code，它現在在哪個地方、妥善率如何馬上可以回傳。"],["邱委員志偉：現在聯繫的機制一定要很完整，讓里長、區長能夠迅速掌握到水閘門的狀況，什麼時候開、什麼時候關、什麼時候閉，所以是不是可以落實對水閘門或者抽水站、抽水機相關的管理，可以嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個我們已經有在做，但是針對委員所說的，我們再精進。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，再生水廠原本在北高雄是沒有的，只有臨海和鳳山，我這邊不曉得講了幾次之後才多了岡橋和楠梓，請教內政部，因為有污水下水道、雨水下水道才能有再生水廠，對不對？"],["於副署長望聖：對。"],["邱委員志偉：再生水廠在市中心或是都會區是相對可以的，所以才有這個條件可以設立楠梓再生水廠及岡橋再生水廠，也是我大力爭取才有的，再生水廠是日後要提供給產業園區的廠商所使用。依據目前相關的辦法，比如，你們修正的再生水辦法，只要兩萬度以上的工業大戶要有五成以上的再生水使用，是不是有這個規定？"],["於副署長望聖：有。"],["邱委員志偉：如果有這樣規定的話，未來越來越多廠商進駐，而且都是大廠，它每年一定超過兩萬度，不管舊廠要新擴或是要蓋新廠，比如，台積電未來可能有一廠、二廠、三廠、四廠、五廠，還有其他相關的供應鏈也會進駐，你要求兩萬噸以上，他們都符合這個條件，以目前岡橋和楠梓的狀況來看，你的再生水會不會供不應求？"],["於副署長望聖：跟委員報告，如果全部的廠商用水統統要用再生水，目前供不應求的狀況是存在的。"],["邱委員志偉：我特別針對楠梓產業園區、橋頭科學園區及未來的白埔產業園區，那麼多大型廠商進駐，現在依照這個條例的規定，每三年要檢討一次，而且還要有五成使用再生水，但你未來沒有辦法供應，它如果違法怎麼辦？"],["於副署長望聖：跟委員說明，就再生水的部分，目前如果產業有這個需求，我們會重新加大再生水供水的能量。"],["邱委員志偉：但你的能量就有限啊！岡橋、楠梓原本是沒有、是零，我爭取之後才有7萬噸，7萬噸可以符合未來需求、符合法令規定的要求嗎？要用五成以上。關於價格部分，請問再生水每度大概多少錢？"],["於副署長望聖：以鳳山來講，大概是18塊，岡橋大概會到35塊。"],["邱委員志偉：35塊！很多大廠都在岡橋、橋頭科學園區以及楠梓產業園區，好，要30塊，現在一般的工業用水每度多少錢？"],["賴次長建信：現在的水價差不多12塊。"],["邱委員志偉：加上耗水費呢？"],["賴次長建信：14塊。"],["邱委員志偉：你如果是廠商，你會選擇什麼？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，耗水費有針對不同的用戶級距，若是回收率太低的話，它的費率會更高。"],["邱委員志偉：有1,700家用水大戶都是工業大戶，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以耗水費對工業大戶也有產生一定的約束力，另外，再生水的比例也要符合規定，那他們要怎麼辦？你會供不應求啊！次長。"],["賴次長建信：第一個，我們會請內政部加速剛剛所提到的16座再生水廠的建置，除此之外，它不是廠建完就可以供水，因為它要收集到都市集中性的系統再生水，它要接管……"],["邱委員志偉：據我瞭解，再生水廠建廠的進度，遠比他們設廠的進度還慢，他們要用再生水的時候，還沒有供水，你們要讓它未雨綢繆、知道這個狀況，如果不是因為我爭取才多了7萬噸，否則，你沒有辦法達成對高科技廠商或者用水大戶再生水的供應，這部分我想次長，是不是你協調一下內政部國土署、科學園區管理局，對園區治水、防洪的相關作為，應該有統一的主管機關，由經濟部來督導、來協調，因為你們是治水專家嘛！國科會不見得是治水專家，但是國科會所管的科學園區裡面的防洪、治水也至關重要，科學園區不能有淹水的問題，所以你應該是拉高層級，由經濟部的水利專家、經濟部水利署針對各園區管理局、科學園區及針對再生水的部分，整體去檢討其供應的問題。","另外，對於污水下水道，我想請教一下內政部，過去六都的都會區沒有問題，但是六都裡面的非都會區，例如我的選區是高雄市裡面的非都會區，從橋頭以北、路竹、永安、彌陀、梓官，比較海線的地方，都沒有任何污水下水道的規劃，這部分內政部有沒有什麼想法？"],["於副署長望聖：在都計區內，我們大概就是依照各縣政府提報的計畫，配合來協助、予以補助及執行，至於非都地區，目前行政院也在討論如何來對非都地區的這些聚落式進行處理，目前行政院已經在研議當中。"],["邱委員志偉：你知道我也想在路竹蓋一個再生水廠，但是它沒有污水跟雨水下水道系統，就沒有辦法蓋再生水廠。"],["於副署長望聖：這個部分我們回去再來檢討一下啦……"],["邱委員志偉：中央要有經費。"],["於副署長望聖：當然這有量的問題啦！如果那個再生水廠實在量很少的時候，其實它是完全不符成本的，可能它後來算出來的水價，廠商根本用不起。"],["邱委員志偉：你要先建構好污水、雨水下水道系統，才能有足夠的量嘛！你看我的選區全部都是零，沒有任何污水下水道的建設規劃，甚至沒有開辦，這部分中央應該要協調地方來提出計畫。"],["於副署長望聖：我們跟高雄市政府再來討論。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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但是可能莊部長他有參加那你知道這個大概昨天因為總統顯見對這件事情很關心嘛才會特別召開一個會議那關於財政部這方面的話總統有特別提到什麼嗎"},{"start":66.063,"end":76.052,"text":"因為我來這邊質詢部長沒有跟我提這個事情但是就我了解他應該就是就我們財政部來講我們會盤點各相關產品的關稅的稅率因為美國因為有對等關稅的問題所以我們會盤點"},{"start":82.797,"end":102.628,"text":"第二個我們應該會就相關的可能因應措施進行討論因為就在這禮拜啦如果按照報宅是4月2號那我就請教一下這個主委好了那請問一下這個台股那今天跌了700多點那從這個3月底的大概23000點到現在跌了將近3000點那您認為說這個跟這個關稅即將要課徵這個對等關稅有沒有相關的關係"},{"start":109.11,"end":125.981,"text":"我想從今年年初以來其實國際上特別是美國的政策有很多的這個不確定性的出現關稅是其中一個我想今天對台灣的股市這當然是一個影響因子因為它就直接影響到國際的股市了應該是一個"},{"start":127.522,"end":146.716,"text":"因為已經跌了快三千點那我要請教一下市長這國安基金跟財政部有相關嘛對不對是那這個有沒有提到說這個國安基金如果在因為這一個關稅假如說啦不曉得有沒有在這個沙盤推論裡面如果台灣被列入這一個骯髒事務國的話有沒有提到就是說那國安基金是否有可能會進場"},{"start":148.818,"end":177.337,"text":"這個還要看還要觀察因為到目前都還是還沒確定因為美國他有宣布說4月2號才會對外公布所以目前都還是不確定那確定以後到底對台灣影響怎麼樣我們會盤點那麼對股市的影響怎麼樣我們也會去充分的去了解然後到時候必要的話我們會召開就這個您的觀點來講的話對於台灣來講是正面影響比較大還是負面影響比較大"},{"start":178.179,"end":181.735,"text":"是哪一部分的關稅的部分啊就關稅這部分目前看起來這個"},{"start":183.16,"end":208.528,"text":"就看美國政策 因為這個部分我們真的沒辦法掌握啦但總是有沙盤推演嘛 正面的跟負面的啊對 但一定會有嘛 一定會有所以我問你說負面比較多還是正面比較多啊這個我不方便 因為這個我不是主管機關我不方便在這邊說但是就我個人來講我是覺得就是說在台積電答應到美國做大額的投資之後那麼未來"},{"start":209.668,"end":229.795,"text":"未來在這個被加徵就是電子產品被加徵關稅的這個機會應該相對來講比較低一點那請教一下彭主委那對於這個我們這個上市櫃公司有沒有受到影響我們有做過盤點跟調查像比如有關關稅議題我們有請我們的兩個交易所"},{"start":230.875,"end":259.233,"text":"針對我們的上市櫃公司我想上次幾天前的質詢也有說過當然是當然有少數的公司確實會在受到關稅的影響比較大他們有做過一些問卷的調查但是如果整體來看的話就不考慮消息面的心理的影響的話會影響的幅度確實是沒有我們想像那麼大這是我們透過交易所了解上市櫃公司的狀況你有沒有想到說大概有多少公司有可能會受到關稅的影響"},{"start":260.214,"end":273.14,"text":"上次有說明嘛或是說我們可以請我們交易所這邊來跟委員那還是請這個 那時間先暫停一下是不是請林董事長這邊來做個說明好 說明董事長林董事長是那個 李總經理 來"},{"start":281.322,"end":282.542,"text":"總經理要做個說明經濟部那30項的台灣出口區的大概2.多%"},{"start":296.404,"end":324.842,"text":"2點多可不可以再請董事長再請講詳細一點這個我不太懂還是總經理要來我說明一下就是經濟部我們有統計就是從台灣出口列為那30項輸美的佔的比重佔全體上市公司的營收是2點多那所以您的這邊是認為說影響還不是很大就對了是不是這個是從台灣出口的部分那進來的部分呢"},{"start":326.724,"end":354.435,"text":"進來的話我們並沒有統計我們是統計上市公司就是經濟部列的那30項出口的部分佔整體上市公司那大概有幾家公司啊這個部分的話我們會後再報告我們是統計比重OK好那請回那這個回到我們這個亞洲資產管理公司來請回這個有一項統計就是說各國所管理的資產佔GDP的比重台灣只佔4成然後跟日本"},{"start":355.195,"end":374.856,"text":"香港這個比起來很多日本差很多日本是有占110%香港占比是1066%新加坡也是打815%落差很大那所以說就這個諸位來講這個亞洲資產管理中心如果要成功的話應該就是要把這一個管理資產占比要把它提高嘛"},{"start":375.617,"end":391.878,"text":"對 因為那個GDP我們也比較大所以當然我們的背景沒有啦 這個跟日本比起來那當然 假設我們相較 比如說剛剛委員有提到比如香港 新加坡 它那個比較高因為它本來管理規模就大了它的分母又比我們小 那當然就很...不是 那日本咧"},{"start":392.887,"end":411.598,"text":"日本他本來也是一個非常非常大的經濟體那日本也在推這個還有就是說有關這個所謂的資產管理規模的計算其實上各國還是有一點點差異不過我們看得出來台灣確實是比較低這是我們努力為什麼要好好來所以這就是你們要努力的地方"},{"start":412.699,"end":441.198,"text":"那我就這個外部資產管理公司這部分來請教一下主委就是說你們有一些法規上面的一些鬆綁然後但是也有一些外部資產管理公司他們認為說鬆綁的規模可能還不夠大那譬如說這個有關這個國外的私募資金的部分現在是有限制說一家只能跟台灣的一家的銀行來合作那沒辦法跟超過一家以上的銀行來做合作"},{"start":442.069,"end":459.195,"text":"對,我們過去確實有這樣,不過我們現在逐步在放寬中那你們的方向是怎麼樣?因為現在比如說這些外部資產管理公司要來台灣,他們只能找一家來合作嘛那如果說是在我們這個特區裡面的話,他是可以除了跟一家之外合作嗎?還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":459.83,"end":485.701,"text":"委員提到的是一個外國資產管理公司還是一個外部資產管理公司這兩個是不一樣的內容外部資產管理公司我們講是外國資產管理公司就是說外國資產管理業是比如說國外的資產管理在台灣設的這些子公司分公司特別子公司那另外一個就是我們外部資產管理公司這是我們新開放的它是提供一個顧問業務這部分其實這是新的但是我們對於"},{"start":486.821,"end":498.172,"text":"比如國外的這些資產管理業在這邊的一些的規範我們已經有請期局這邊逐步的再去做一些調整那請問一下就是說目前你們對這個投資有沒有一個最低的門檻"},{"start":507.128,"end":525.326,"text":"我們現在的話就是因為我們現在國內的執照比較特別我們大概就是兩個法定的執照一個就是投信一個叫投顧投顧裡面呢它有一些的業務範圍它是名列在投信投顧法裡面的但是我們其他還有一些其他金屬管居然同意的業務範圍我們可以在做這這時候做一些適當的放寬"},{"start":526.347,"end":553.161,"text":"因為我們國內沒有一個叫資產管理業的執照沒有像比如說國外有九號牌啦或是類似像這樣專門做資產管理業因為我們過去大概都是以有價證券作為一個前提那其實在做資產管理的時候它不限於有價證券相關它可能還有其他比如說不動產或是其他的資產所以我們這次呢在外部這個資產管理這個業裡面呢我們有做這樣的一個在事辦區裡面我們做一個這樣的放寬"},{"start":554.181,"end":566.511,"text":"那我是說有沒有就是說一個門檻比如說要比如說一百萬還是三百萬美金就按照我們現在投信跟投顧特別是比如他那個門檻只看你做的業務而已有點差異這樣那總是有一個素質出來啊你這樣講我還蠻"},{"start":573.854,"end":592.553,"text":"還蠻rough的我也不知道說那裡大概就是一億元一億元我們現在的門檻你如果做高資產客戶大概就是剛剛同學跟我講的是一億元一億元是三百萬美金差不多三百萬美金那有沒有調降的可能性就是說讓門檻低一點然後能夠讓更多的人進來"},{"start":593.795,"end":616.095,"text":"這個部分我們現在是既有的這個規範當然未來我們會看實際上運作的情形我們再來做那還是說這個大概300萬美金就是只能固定在一家還是說你不是好幾家合起來可以300萬美金這樣子這部分跟合作銀行之間的那個內容這個可不可以請那個我們局長來跟委員做簡單的說明一下謝謝"},{"start":620.405,"end":626.324,"text":"我們一般來講看公司的規模如果需要整合的話我們再來看有沒有需求"},{"start":628.934,"end":655.582,"text":"我是說那300萬美金就是1億台幣是說我只能在這一家那還是說我可以好幾家合起來300萬就可以了只單純一家來看那我意思說有沒有可能放寬但看將來的需求如何情況我們再來看我是說在市辦區的話理論上是可以放寬因為它只要合起來有300萬美金的話"},{"start":657.618,"end":677.707,"text":"其實是可以吸引更多的外資來到這邊那你如果說單就一家就只有300萬美金的話那等於是說他如果要來投資的話就必須說他可能要有更高的這個金額才有辦法過來吸引的加速可能會比較少我的意思是這樣子所以我才說這個專區有沒有去做一個調整"},{"start":679.29,"end":692.414,"text":"專區的規定我們就是隨時滾動調整因為這畢竟是一個大的實驗示範辦法所以這部分我們按照實際的申請的情況我們在未來會來做一些滾動式的調整我是覺得說盡量調這個放寬的這個方向來走好不好"},{"start":695.795,"end":722.854,"text":"當然從我們整個政策的架構我們會來思考市場的需求就是這部分我們會未來隨時滾動的去思考這應該要做什麼微調因為很多東西也是我們在事辦區第一次做這件事情這為什麼要透過事辦的原因也在這裡我們想說透過小範圍風險可控的情況之下我們先來觀察這樣的開放對市場的影響那我們再來決定下一步應該是做全面的開放還是做一些微調"},{"start":723.939,"end":724.101,"text":"好 謝謝子晴"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":800,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時14分）謝謝主席。我們請彭主委還有財政部阮次長。"],["主席：請彭主委還有阮次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。根據報載，昨天晚上賴總統為了因應美國的關稅戰，有在官邸召開會議，主委有參加嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，沒有。"],["李委員坤城：所以這件事情跟你比較沒有關係？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：跟你沒有關係喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不，跟我們有關係，但是我沒有參與這個會議。"],["李委員坤城：跟你應該有關係，但是你沒有參與這個會議，財政部有參加嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我自己本人沒有參加，但是可能莊部長有參加……"],["李委員坤城：莊部長有參加嘛！那你知道大概昨天……因為總統顯見對這件事情很關心，才會特別召開一個會議，關於財政部這方面，總統有特別提到什麼嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我來這邊質詢，部長沒有跟我提這個事情，但是就我了解，就我們財政部來講，我們會盤點各相關產品的關稅稅率，美國因為有對等關稅的問題，所以我們會盤點。第二個，我們應該會就相關的可能因應措施來進行討論。"],["李委員坤城：因為就在這禮拜，如果按照報載是4月2號，我就請教一下主委好了，請問一下，臺股今天跌了七百多點，從3月底大概2萬3,000點到現在跌了將近3,000點，您認為跟即將要課徵對等關稅有沒有相關的關係？"],["彭主任委員金隆：從今年年初以來，其實國際上特別是美國的政策，有很多不確定性的出現，關稅是其中一個，今天對臺灣的股市，這當然是一個影響因子，因為它就直接影響到國際的股市，應該是一個滿……"],["李委員坤城：對，因為已經跌了大概快3,000點……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員坤城：我請教一下次長，國安基金跟財政部有相關，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：有關國安基金，如果再因為關稅，假如說，不曉得有沒有在這個沙盤推演裡面，如果臺灣被列入骯髒15國的話，有沒有提到國安基金是否有可能會進場？"],["阮次長清華：這個還要看、還要觀察啦！因為到目前都還沒確定嘛！因為美國有宣布4月2號才會對外公布。"],["李委員坤城：就是後天的事情啦。"],["阮次長清華：所以目前都還是不確定，確定以後，到底對臺灣影響怎麼樣，我們會盤點，對股市的影響怎麼樣，我們也會充分去了解，到時候必要的話，我們會召開……"],["李委員坤城：就您的觀點，對於臺灣來講，是正面影響比較大還是負面影響比較大？"],["阮次長清華：是哪一部分的？"],["李委員坤城：關稅的部分。"],["阮次長清華：就關稅這一部分，目前看起來就是看美國的政策，因為這個部分我們真的沒辦法掌握。"],["李委員坤城：但是總是有沙盤推演，正面的跟負面的。"],["阮次長清華：對，那一定會有……"],["李委員坤城：所以我問你說，負面比較多，還是正面比較多？"],["阮次長清華：這部分因為我不是主管機關，我不方便在這邊說，但是就我個人來講，我是覺得台積電答應到美國做大額投資之後，未來電子產品被加徵關稅的機會相對來講應該比較低一點。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再請教一下彭主委，對於我們的上市櫃公司有沒有受到影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有做過盤點跟調查，比如有關關稅議題，我們有請兩個交易所針對上市櫃公司……上次、幾天前的質詢也有說過，當然有少數的公司確實會受到關稅的影響比較大，他們有做過一些問卷的調查，但是如果整體來看，不考慮消息面心理影響的話，會影響的幅度確實沒有我們想像那麼大，這是我們透過交易所了解上市櫃公司的狀況。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有統計大概有多少公司可能會受到關稅的影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：上次有說明，或是我們可以請交易所來跟委員……"],["李委員坤城：時間先暫停一下，是不是請林董事長來做個說明？"],["主席：好，請修銘董事長。"],["李委員坤城：林董事長和李總經理，董事長還是總經理要做個說明？請。"],["林董事長修銘：經濟部那30項臺灣出口去的大概二點多百分比。"],["李委員坤城：可不可以請董事長再講詳細一點？這個我不太懂，還是總經理要來？"],["李總經理愛玲：好，我說明一下，就是經濟部有統計從臺灣出口列為那30項輸美占的比重，占全體上市公司的營收是百分之二點多。"],["李委員坤城：所以這邊是認為影響還不是很大就對了，是不是？"],["李總經理愛玲：這個是從臺灣出口的部分。"],["李委員坤城：那進來的部分呢？"],["李總經理愛玲：進來的話，我們並沒有統計，我們是統計上市公司，就是經濟部列的那30項出口的部分占整體上市公司……"],["李委員坤城：大概有幾家公司？"],["李總經理愛玲：這個部分的話，我們會後再報告，我們是統計比重。"],["李委員坤城：這樣子喔！OK！好，請回。","回到我們討論的亞洲資產管理中心，這裡有一項統計，就是各國所管理的資產占GDP的比重，臺灣只占四成，跟日本、香港比起來差很多，日本差很多，日本是占110%，香港占比是1066%，新加坡也是達815%，落差很大。就主委來講，亞洲資產管理中心政策如果要成功的話，應該就是要把管理資產占比提高嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為GDP我們也比較大，所以當然我們的base……"],["李委員坤城：沒有啦，跟日本比起來……"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，我的意思是說假設我們相較比如說剛才委員有提到香港、新加坡，它那個比較高，因為它本來管理規模就大了，它的分母又比我們小，當然就很……"],["李委員坤城：那日本咧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：日本它本來就也是一個非常非常大的經濟體嘛！那日本也在推這個……還有就是說有關所謂的資產管理規模的計算，實際上各國還是有點差異啦！不過我們看得出來臺灣確實是比較低，這是我們努力……為什麼我們要好好……"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以這就是你們要努力的地方啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的是的，沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：我就外部資產管理公司這部分來請教一下主委，就是說你們有一些法規上面的鬆綁，但是也有一些外部資產管理公司他們認為鬆綁的規模可能還不夠大，譬如說有關國外私募資金的部分，是不是現在有限制說一家只能跟臺灣的一家銀行來合作，沒辦法跟超過一家以上的銀行來做合作？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們過去確實有這樣，不過我們現在逐步在放寬中，對。"],["李委員坤城：對，那你們的方向是怎麼樣啊？因為現在比如說這些外部資產管理公司要來臺灣，它只能找一家來合作嘛！如果說是在我們這個特區裡面的話，它是可以除了跟一家之外合作嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員提到的是一個外國資產管理公司還是一個外部資產管理公司？這兩個是不一樣的內容。"],["李委員坤城：外部資產管理公司。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們講的是外國資產管理公司，就是說外國資產管理業是比如說國外的資產管理業在臺灣設的這些子公司、分公司嘛！特別是子公司。另外一個就是我們外部資產管理公司，這是我們新開放的，它是提供顧問業務，這部分其實是一個新的，但是我們對於比如國外的這些資產管理業在這邊的一些規範，我們已經有請期局這邊逐步地再去做一些調整啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，那請問一下，目前你們對於要來投資有沒有一個最低的門檻？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在的話就是……因為我們現在國內的執照比較特別，我們大概就是兩個法定的執照，一個就是投信，一個叫投顧，投顧裡面有一些業務範圍是明列在投信投顧法裡面的，但是我們還有些其他經主管機關同意的業務範圍，我們可以在這時候做一些適當的放寬，因為我們國內沒有一個叫資產管理業的執照，沒有像比如說國外有9號牌或是類似像這樣專門做資產管理業，因為我們過去大概都是以有價證券作為一個前提，其實在做資產管理的時候不限於有價證券相關，可能還有其他比如說不動產或是其他的資產，所以我們這次在外部資產管理這個業裡面，我們在試辦區裡面有做一個這樣的放寬。"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說有沒有一個門檻？比如說要100萬還是300萬美金？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就按照我們現在投信跟投顧，特別是比如它那一個門檻，看你做的業務有點差異這樣。"],["李委員坤城：那總是有一個數值出來啊？你這樣講還滿rough的，我也不太知道說……"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是1億元。"],["李委員坤城：1億元？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們現在的門檻就……你如果做高資產客戶大概就是……剛剛同仁跟我講是1億元。"],["李委員坤城：1億元是300萬美金？"],["彭主任委員金隆：呃，差不多。"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有調降的可能性？就是說讓那個門檻低一點，然後能夠讓更多的人進來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分我們現在是既有的規範，當然未來我們會看實際上運作的情形，我們再來做……"],["李委員坤城：大概300萬美金就是只能固定在一家，還是說好幾家合起來可以300萬美金這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分跟合作銀行之間的內容，這個可不可以請我們局長來跟委員做簡單的說明一下？謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好。"],["張局長振山：我們一般來講看它公司的規模，它如果需要整合的話，我們再來看它有沒有需求家數。"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！因為你們有一個最低的……所以我是說那300萬美金，就是1億臺幣，是說我只能在這一家還是說我可以好幾家合起來300萬就可以了？"],["張局長振山：只單純一家來看。"],["李委員坤城：對，那我意思是說有沒有可能放寬啦？"],["張局長振山：看將來的需求情況如何我們再來看……"],["李委員坤城：我是說在試辦區的話，理論上是可以放寬啦，因為它只要合起來有300萬美金的話，其實是可以吸引更多的外資來到這邊啦，那你如果說單就一家就只有300萬美金的話，那等於是說它如果要來投資的話，它可能要有更高的金額它才有辦法過來，那吸引的家數可能會比較少，我的意思是這樣子，所以我才說這個專區有沒有去做一個調整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：專區的規定我們就是隨時滾動調整，因為這畢竟是一個大的實驗試辦辦法，所以這部分我們按照實際申請的情況，我們在未來會來做一些滾動式的調整。"],["李委員坤城：我是覺得說儘量朝放寬的方向來走啦，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然從我們整個……"],["李委員坤城：因為既然是專區嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會來思考市場的需求啦，就是這部分我們未來會隨時滾動地去思考這應該要做什麼微調，因為很多東西也是我們在試辦區第一次做這件事情嘛！為什麼要透過試辦的原因也在這裡，我們想說透過小範圍、風險可控的情況之下，我們先來觀察這樣的開放對市場的影響，那我們再來決定下一步應該是做全面的開放還是做一些微調。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝坤城。接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5602db86d2af624f9ab992d8b3314b746c75f6b5b4b5fbf8c064411f9f51987335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:08:34 - 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我想要請賴次長請農田水利署的蔡署長請次長跟署長 謝謝委員好好 這個今年的汛期以及有沒有可能發生就是之前的百年大旱那個情況那我相信你們是不是對於相關的水情有重要的掌握"},{"start":36,"end":61.733,"text":"今年上半年的部分不會發生百年大旱的狀況因為我們中部以北的水庫啊蓄水率都有九成那第一期到座的整天期的這個用水都已經灌溉了然後接下來就會進入到本天期就是用水量比較少的但是我們密切來關注於春雨的降雨之外還有包括梅雨的這個降雨的可能因為我們所有的"},{"start":62.313,"end":88.937,"text":"防汛或是抗旱的這個準備工作是一年365天我們都會主持來盤點對 那請問一下就是現在有關於不管是我們未來的汛期有可能也會造成像去年的海米颱風一樣的這樣子的災情那對於水利署而言你可能認為說災情比過去更好了"},{"start":89.417,"end":112.85,"text":"但是對於民眾的損失以及對於他們安全的這樣相關的影響他們還是很重大啊尤其是在氣候變遷嚴峻的極端氣候的產生之下對於大家而言這個急降雨產生的情況以及最近急降溫"},{"start":113.931,"end":128.364,"text":"那對於這樣子農田水利以及我們水利署相關的這樣子的影響那你們有做好相關的因應嗎有 如同委員所說的極端事變其實在我們來看就像大白鯊一樣"},{"start":129.431,"end":158.518,"text":"他來的很快 而且對我們整體社會的這個損失也相當的大 所以我們在今天報告的第三頁跟第四頁特別提到五大措施這五大措施不管從整體性的治理改善還有減少淹水入家門 加速退水以及防災應變的工作 現在都已經在次第的實施我們希望在5月1號訊息來臨之前 我們就可以去做充分的準備但是"},{"start":159.932,"end":179.688,"text":"依照國科會包括委員所呈現的數據顯示我們現在面臨到的這個狀況一年比一年可能更加的險峻所以行政院為了要超前部署這些的狀況所以在去年成立了水及流域永續小組那這個小組是在解決委員所提的問題"},{"start":181.112,"end":205.893,"text":"是 那對於我提出來這個數字就是國家氣候變遷科學報告2024年的這個數字裡面他說有大部分大約14%的鄉鎮都會處於較高的洪水風險而且3%的鄉鎮淹水的情況是在現在的情況下就是已經有這個極端氣候的情況下會更加的嚴峻"},{"start":207.014,"end":231.495,"text":"那對於我們淹水風險升高的鄉鎮尤其在彰化那有面臨到海岸線的部分我們是排行第三名的這個就是說沿海地區的易淹的深度會超過1.5公尺的風險那你們有沒有提出相關的減災的這個措施呢第一個"},{"start":232.674,"end":244.27,"text":"我們整體的海岸防護計畫顯示彰化的海岸是一級防護海岸所以一級防護海岸就是剛剛委員所提到的情況發生的話它會產生三種以上的風險"},{"start":245.492,"end":263.536,"text":"包括爆草易淹的這個狀況而且彰化的沿海也是我們潮沙最大的區域所以我們現在所做的事情不管是從養攤還有包括從上游不斷的讓這些泥沙可以到河口甚至對於我們的海岸的防護會做"},{"start":264.156,"end":289.713,"text":"一些保護的工作之外我們都有做我們現在水利署的水利規劃實驗所針對於濁水溪它有做一個水供試驗怎麼樣讓濁水溪的泥沙慢慢的可以帶到河口然後隨著洋流主要的趨勢流可以到保護我們彰化的海岸這些工作都已經這樣進行那未來我們也會依照國科會所推估的新的情境去套疊"},{"start":291.124,"end":316.108,"text":"套點了之後然後我們再來檢討我們的一級海岸防護計畫看哪一些需要加強的再來做加強好那農田水利署呢你們對於我們彰化縣的這個灌溉的取鉤那到底有沒有做好清汙以及我們在這個汛期來的時候有相關的這樣子防洪的這樣子的一個一個準備呢"},{"start":316.508,"end":332.709,"text":"是 非常感謝委員的垂詢 首先先跟委員報告那有關在今年度的這個全國的這個一席倒座的這個灌溉絕對都沒有問題 那因為我們做了非常多的這個調序空間和一些智慧管理的機制那再來就是委員所垂詢到接下來這個"},{"start":334.19,"end":349.96,"text":"這個5月1號就進入這個訊期那事實上我們這幾年在這個居住改善的這個量能多比過往其實大非常的多那我們清淤 那麼除了用傳統的這個定期清淤還有這個農民到工作站通報以外那我們還增加了0800專線還有網路通報等等多元通報的機制"},{"start":353.602,"end":382.224,"text":"那我們現在就是平均處理這個清約的這個工作從這個8.2天到現在下降到4.3天那我們區定量也增加了61%所以整體而言我們對於我們整個彰化地區的這個這個抗洪的這個量能事實上是大幅提升不過因為就像委員您的這個報告裡面非常的精準在這個AR6的這個情境的模擬之下那事實上我們後續要做的工作還非常多以上簡單報告"},{"start":385.626,"end":403.736,"text":"市長 對於現在大家所重視的另外一個問題就是耗水費的開徵 不是耗水費 就是水費會不會增加如果在不影響民生的情況下 會不會像2023年"},{"start":405.342,"end":425.278,"text":"我們開徵耗水費一樣那你們開徵耗水費到現在以來有沒有辦法精準的就是說降低我們的就是說可以增加我們的收入然後讓我們整個水的成本那也可以用就是說也可以"},{"start":426.338,"end":449.109,"text":"減緩一些些那這樣子是不是會讓我們未來不用大幅度的增加水費而以耗水費的部分來做這樣相關的因應呢好首先這個耗水費的開徵感謝委員會的支持所以我們也順利開徵而這個開徵我們針對於用水9000度以上的這個部分來開徵全國大概有1600多"},{"start":450.57,"end":476.523,"text":"那所徵收的這些耗水費會專款專用於改善輔導廠商用再生水甚至來支應我們枯旱期間的這個用水調度還有節水的作業那目前為止這個我們徵收了這個狀況我們現在來看的話對於所謂的廠商他循環用水確實第一個產生很大的這個"},{"start":477.924,"end":505.559,"text":"改善的一個狀況因為耗水費的開徵有一些誘因廠商可以去去做這些工作那除此之外的話耗水費的這個開徵對於大用水戶節省用水量也是有相當大的幫助但是這個跟水價是不一樣的一個事情因為耗水費它是一個所謂的特別功課就是課來就是專款要專用的那水費啦這基於使用者付費的原則"},{"start":506.599,"end":533.728,"text":"那現在台水公司全國超過6.5萬多左右的這些的管路那逐漸的在老化那台水公司也精進了它很多的降落的這個技術或是維修的技術我們可以看到這幾年不管是颱風、豪雨或是緊急的事變台水公司對於這些的緊急的應變的能力說逐次的在提升那我們會針對於台水公司今天所提出來"},{"start":534.688,"end":546.445,"text":"今天下班前他所會提出來這個報告全面性來檢視怎麼樣來協助台水公司來健全他的體質之外來符合我們委員會包括社會的祈求"},{"start":547.213,"end":572.365,"text":"好 谢谢但是我还有其实我对于你刚才做的那个手板就是你们对于说好像核能就是说用电就是比高达30%的那个南韩那他们的那个电费还是比我们大那其实你也知道说现在不管是美国以及欧洲国家都已经开始使用核能那即便是在成本这么高的情况下为什么大家要核能是不是"},{"start":575.04,"end":601.436,"text":"基本上我們就對新核能技術的這個掌控台電公司都有去follow國際的訊息那甚至台電公司相關的這個同仁也會去看國外去看到借機他新的這個技術的一個開放的一個狀況但是我們對於能源的使用無論是新能源或是舊能源他基本上社會希望核能要安全的社會希望說"},{"start":603.533,"end":632.031,"text":"核廢料要能處理的那這些所謂的使用必須要有一些的共識基於這三個原則那我看國際的社會對於核能的一個使用也大概不外乎是跟我們國家所產生的這個原則一樣但是我還是要再次跟委員所說明的事情是韓國的核能佔比這麼高他不管是住宅用電跟工業的用電都遠高於我國所以基本上"},{"start":633.342,"end":658.941,"text":"在電價審議委員會還有包括我們在工作會議裡面檢視台電公司的財務報告裡面確實是在111年跟112年台電公司因為電價不為主額反映的部分它吸收的這個虧損是6000億其中有2600億是照顧民生的所以也之所以如此所以我們希望說爭取預算來撥補"},{"start":662.38,"end":684.988,"text":"這塊讓這個台電公司背負過去的所謂的燃料成本這個大幅上漲的這個累積的這個虧損讓他可以趕快的穩定下來然後他可以去前瞻未來包括他電網韌性的改善甚至很多新的綠能還有包括新的能源的措施的這個掌握好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時8分）謝謝主席。我想要請賴次長、請農田水利署的蔡署長。"],["主席：請次長跟署長，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好喔！今年的汛期有沒有可能發生之前百年大旱的那個情況？我相信你們對於相關的水情應該有重要的掌握。"],["賴次長建信：今年上半年不會發生百年大旱的狀況，因為我們中部以北的水庫蓄水率到九成，第一期稻作整田期的用水都已經灌溉了，接下來就會進入到本田期，也就是用水量比較少的，但是我們除了密切關注春雨的降雨之外，還有包括梅雨降雨的可能，因為我們所有的防汛或是抗旱的準備工作是一年365天我們都會逐日來盤點。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問一下，不管是未來的汛期，有可能也會造成像去年凱米颱風一樣的災情，對於水利署而言，你可能認為災情比過去更好了，但是對於民眾的損失以及對於他們安全相關的影響，他們還是很重大，尤其是在氣候變遷、嚴峻的極端氣候的產生之下，對於大家而言，急降雨產生的情況，以及最近的急降溫，對於農田水利以及水利署相關的影響，你們有做好相關因應了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：有，如同委員所說的極端事變，其實在我們來看就像大白鯊一樣，它來得很快，而且對我們整體社會的損失也相當的大，所以我們在今天報告的第3頁跟第4頁有特別提到五大措施，這五大措施不管從整體性的治理改善、減少淹水入家門、加速退水到防災應變的工作，現在都已經在次第的實施，我們希望在5月1日汛期來臨之前就可以做好充分的準備。但是依照國科會，包括委員所呈現的數據顯示，我們現在面臨到的狀況可能一年比一年更加的險峻，所以行政院為了要超前部署這些狀況，在去年成立了水及流域永續小組，這個小組就是在解決委員所提的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是。對於我提出來的數字，就是國家氣候變遷科學報告2024年的這個數字裡面，他說大約14%的鄉鎮都會處於較高的洪水風險，而且其中3%鄉鎮的淹水情況是在現在已經有極端氣候的情況下會更加嚴峻的。對於淹水風險升高的鄉鎮，尤其在彰化有面臨到海岸線的部分，我們在沿海地區溢淹深度會超過1.5公尺的風險中是排行第3名，你們有沒有提出相關的減災措施？"],["賴次長建信：有，第一個，我們整體的海岸防護計畫顯示彰化的海岸是一級防護海岸，一級防護海岸就是如果剛剛委員所提到的情況發生的話，它會產生三種以上的風險，包括暴潮溢淹的狀況，而且彰化沿海也是我們潮差最大的區域，所以我們現在所做的事情，不管是從養灘，包括從上游不斷的讓泥沙可以帶到河口，甚至對於我們海岸的防護會做一些保護的工作等等，我們都有做。現在水利署的水利規劃試驗所針對於濁水溪有做一個水工試驗，怎麼樣讓濁水溪的泥沙可以慢慢的帶到河口，隨著洋流、主要的趨勢流可以保護彰化的海岸，這些工作都已經在進行。未來我們也會依照國科會所推估的新的情境去套疊，套疊了之後，我們再來檢討我們的一級海岸防護計畫，看哪一些需要加強的，再來做加強。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，那農田水利署呢？你們對於彰化縣灌溉的渠溝到底有沒有做好清淤？以及在汛期來的時候，有沒有相關的防洪準備呢？"],["蔡署長昇甫：是，非常感謝委員的垂詢，首先跟委員報告，有關在今年度全國一級稻作的灌溉，絕對都沒有問題，因為我們做了非常多的調蓄空間以及一些智慧管理的機制。再來就是委員所垂詢到，接下來5月1日就進入汛期，事實上我們這幾年在圳路改善的量能都比過往大非常多，清淤方面，我們除了用傳統的定期清淤，還有農民到工作站通報以外，我們還增加了0800專線以及網路通報等多元通報的機制。我們現在平均處理清淤的工作時間從8.2天下降到4.3天，清淤量也增加了百分之六十一，所以整體而言，事實上彰化地區的抗洪量能是大幅提升的。不過委員的簡報裡面寫得非常精準，在AR6的情境模擬之下，事實上我們後續要做的工作還非常多，以上簡單報告。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。次長，現在大家所重視的另外一個問題是，水費會不會增加，如果在不影響民生的情況下，會不會像2023年我們開徵耗水費一樣？你們開徵耗水費以來，有沒有辦法精準的增加我們的收入，讓我們整個水的成本也可以減緩一些些？這樣是不是會讓我們未來不用大幅度的增加水費，而以耗水費的部分來做這樣相關的因應呢？"],["賴次長建信：首先關於耗水費的開徵，感謝委員會的支持，我們也順利開徵，我們是針對用水量9000度以上的部分進行開徵，全國大概有一千六百多戶，所徵收的耗水費會專款專用於輔導廠商用再生水，甚至來支應枯旱期間的用水調度以及節水的作業。而目前為止我們的徵收狀況，以現在來看，對於廠商的循環用水確實有產生很大的改善狀況，因為耗水費的開徵有一些誘因，廠商可以去做這些工作。除此之外，耗水費的開徵，對於大用水戶節省用水量也是有相當大的幫助。但是這個跟水價是不一樣的事情，因為耗水費是一個特別公課，就是課來是要專款專用的；而水費則是基於使用者付費原則。而現在全國有超過六點五萬多左右的管路逐漸在老化，台水公司也精進了很多降漏的技術或是維修的技術，我們可以看到這幾年，不管是颱風、豪雨或是緊急的事變，台水公司對於這些緊急的應變能力都逐次的在提升。我們會針對於台水公司今天下班前所提出來的報告全面性來檢視，除了協助台水公司健全體質之外，也可以符合委員會及社會的期求。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。其實我對於你剛才做的手板，就是核能用電高達30%的南韓，他們的電費還是比我們大。其實你也知道現在不管是美國以及歐洲國家都已經開始使用核能，即便是在成本這麼高的情況下。為什麼大家要用核能？是不是？"],["賴次長建信：基本上對於新核能技術的掌控，台電公司都有去follow國際的訊息，甚至台電公司相關的同仁也會去國外介接新技術開放的狀況，但是我們對於能源的使用，無論是新能源或是舊能源，基本上社會希望核能要安全，社會希望核廢料要能處理，這些使用必須要有一些共識，基於這三個原則，我看國際社會對於核能的使用也不外乎跟我們國家的原則一樣，但我還是要再次跟委員說明的是，韓國的核能占比這麼高，他不管是住宅用電跟工業用電都遠高於我國，所以基本上在電價審議委員會，包括我們在工作會議裡面檢視台電公司的財務報告裡面，確實是在111年跟112年，台電公司因為電價未足額反映的部分，他吸收的虧損是6,000億，其中有2,600億是照顧民生的。也因為如此，我們希望能爭取預算來撥補這一塊，讓台電公司背負過去燃料成本大幅上漲所累積的虧損可以趕快的穩定下來，然後他就可以去前瞻未來，包括他電網韌性的改善，甚至很多新的綠能以及新的能源措施的掌握。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","接下來請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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你準備好了沒啊"},{"start":117.195,"end":138.936,"text":"是準備在修正,我們外匯局有個team因為我看到主委他很積極,畢竟剛剛上任以彭主委他是點子王,以及他看起來比較年輕比較有很高的理想,想要做點事"},{"start":140.151,"end":158.112,"text":"可是,現在即便匯20萬回來,你央行也查三次、四次啊,台幣喔那你每次都是,當然啦,你們都說是要查一些這個什麼洗錢啊等等的齁,那請問央行"},{"start":159.269,"end":185.081,"text":"已經洗了這個三年多了說要找這個洗錢的國際的什麼洗錢請問央行啊你們這幾年有發現哪一筆是洗錢的比較大筆的有沒有我想這個應該不是央行業務對不對有沒有啦我問一下因為這個是外匯局外匯局你們管的沒關係你是副總裁可能剛來還不大清楚來外匯局"},{"start":187.708,"end":209.161,"text":"因為你要成為亞洲的資產管理中心勢必需要一個很自由進出的金融中心當然你的管控是在你的核心那應該是要利益良善"},{"start":210.117,"end":230.819,"text":"就是鼓勵為普遍那有問題你再特例抓出來好我們再回歸到這個問題央行這去年啊去年一整年你們查獲的洗錢有幾例金額是多少我想洗錢不是我們央行這邊去去查或怎麼樣那他銀行之間會去通報那個洗錢的主管機關"},{"start":231.92,"end":259.468,"text":"所以我們央行的立場來講最主要還是為了假設不是扣除洗錢方面的我們的那五十萬、一百萬相關的一些目前的規範大概都是最主要還是為了編制我們的國際收支所需來做這樣的一個銀行端會報給我們大概都是為了方便我們做比較準確的國際收支的一個編制所以去年一整年所謂的洗錢防治真正查到國際洗錢的有幾筆"},{"start":261.048,"end":279.39,"text":"總金額有多少這跟委員報告我們回去check一下就是我們目前應該是我了解是應該沒有這樣的一個每次回答都check一下你不是要說亞洲資產管理中心嗎所以當主委在往前衝的時候你們都在後面扯後腿"},{"start":280.785,"end":296.193,"text":"所以你造成現在的情況是普遍的台商在講你五十萬八十萬明明人家學他的兒子小孩就在英國念書匯錢過去匯是匯到學校你一次要問三次要問四次"},{"start":297.945,"end":311.295,"text":"主委如果存在的情況是這麼嚴苛請問你要做的亞洲資產管理中心有哪一個人的錢願意回來台灣當然我們現在"},{"start":315.188,"end":343.987,"text":"其實從金額來看我們確實在推動這個過程當中已經在逐步顯現成效也跟剛剛委員稍微這個說明一下其實我們各個部會在過去我們非常非常密集的溝通那沒有委員講說他們就扯後腿那主委你記得因為各個部會有他自己非常專業的考量我們都尊重但是我們持續的希望他給我們一些協助也有若干的時間了"},{"start":345.728,"end":373.116,"text":"大概還沒超過30年其實我們一般的公務人員大家都很認真唯一要突破的一個破口就是你把三個單位因為你每次我發現你要推都是A推B B推C答案永遠說我要再查查看我再去了解一下有幾個案例那洗錢總共有多少錢每次都有不斷的科目會出現"},{"start":374.557,"end":402.871,"text":"那造成你的推動力道明顯的打折我建議一個可以解決你的方法這個方法是累積多年的經驗如果你這個方法做起來做不成那你來找我我請你吃一碗牛肉麵你要不要試試看這個方法呢說難也不難你就把三個單位"},{"start":404.557,"end":424.815,"text":"重要的單位重要的人可以決定的人你全部叫過來從現在現在是早上現在11點嘛你就說我們為了推動台灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心大家心裡都沒有障礙就從現在11點現在11點開始開會開到中午肚子餓了叫便當"},{"start":432.97,"end":450.898,"text":"還沒有結論沒有關係到了晚上給他們選擇繼續吃便當你總要給他選擇啊吃這個排骨飯或是雞腿飯或是什麼飯通通可以你要讓他們有選擇晚上開完還沒有結論繼續開吃宵夜所以你要有這個精神才有辦法突破"},{"start":459.98,"end":466.211,"text":"不然我看半年以來所謂OBU OIU OSU特別OIU的部分有沒有成果"},{"start":468.754,"end":495.516,"text":"OIU的部分剛剛有說明過去年基期很低今年我們有開放新商品跟新的做法我應該很有信心應該一定會有一些成果今天是幾月了今天是3月31號這個截至3月底之前OIU做了幾件金額是多少去年我們有個金額我們請局長待會馬上補充過來局長馬上說去年沒有嘛今年做了多少"},{"start":496.565,"end":514.992,"text":"注意聽喔 這很重要是 報告委員 今年的到1月份的那個有效契約件數不好意思 有效契約件數總共有672件那保費收入100多件 總金額多少到今年1月底的總金額有1600億左右1000多對 1600億 保費收入1000多億是不是抱歉 1000多萬"},{"start":525,"end":532.845,"text":"哇 我看一張 我以為是不是一千多億所以一百多件 總共是多少大聲一點 勇敢說出來"},{"start":534.683,"end":551.368,"text":"到今年一月份為止是一千六百萬哇 一千多萬我們龐大的團隊我想所有東西都一定要不要講OSU 來講一下有幾件OSU 我們拒絕同仁來給委員這個數字"},{"start":557.441,"end":585.046,"text":"那我們是不是OBU要準備一下好OBU不用啦因為OBU大家都很熟OSU的部分總共幾件那總金額多少一千七百多萬多少一千多一千多億一千七百對一千七百一千七百二十五億美元一千多億是不是對對一千多億一千多億美元喔每一千七百"},{"start":586.547,"end":599.115,"text":"交易量對,就1700多億美元多億?有那麼多?有啊,OSUC有那麼多那它那個內容是什麼?為什麼這個金額會?是因為都是外資嗎?外資的進出還是?"},{"start":608.393,"end":619.891,"text":"主要是智盈的部分智盈的買賣所產生的智盈 買台股嗎買台股OK那我們發現買台股的部分今天那個股市暴跌"},{"start":621.414,"end":644.929,"text":"今天波動比較大所以我剛剛講那個數字你再參考看看其實那個金額也不多啦因為買賣買賣像台灣的平均量那個成交量就大概五千多億了嘛所以你這個加一加其實跟你的目標還相距非常遠總之我希望你們這個三個單位要合作"},{"start":645.569,"end":655.321,"text":"那當然我們會持續交談合作然後努力的達成協議做出成績好 那請問一下主委今天股市為什麼暴跌"},{"start":655.885,"end":683.87,"text":"今天我想因為很多原因啦當我說今天早上從我們我們前一天我們的期貨那個收盤美國大概也我們相關聯動比較高的指數呢也做了蠻大的修正啦所以我們台灣是反映這個國際股市大概這樣一個情形所以台股會不會再跌這我不是分析師我無法做對未來做預測如果台股再暴跌的話國安基金會不會進場"},{"start":690.172,"end":711.397,"text":"我想這一次這個股市不是只有台灣的股市是全球股市都受到美國關稅政策的影響所以現在充滿了不確定性關稅政策的影響我上次在這邊質詢的時候所有的官員說影響不大結果影響不大台積電已經破一千塊了一直質疑"},{"start":712.662,"end":739.562,"text":"直墜式的下滑股市最怕的就是不確定性跟預期心理所以像這種到目前因為他是講說4月2號他要宣布他的政策所以現在大家都在觀望所以台股如果再跌1000點破2萬以後國安基金會不會進場這個我們到時候會評估到時候會如果有必要的話會召開這個相關委員會議那麼來就可能會進場也可能不會進場"},{"start":741.984,"end":766.426,"text":"會討論這個事情會討論這個事 國安基金會討論這個事可是國安基金的規模只有五千億啊主委你希望多少億的規模才會夠彭主委這個金管會員沒辦法去對這個做評論因為這個畢竟我們對資本市場我們是一個資本市場的監理現在是五千億吧那個要由主政單位來決定那你覺得夠不夠"},{"start":769.7,"end":786.589,"text":"因為9年前規模只有7兆多現在市值的規道已經超過了幾億幾兆70兆左右我來說明一下可以嗎因為我們國安基金會成立的時候是民國89年那時候的市值大概是7兆多"},{"start":787.609,"end":792.251,"text":"大概八九兆最近大概七十幾兆有一點修正超過九倍多我想就是說你可能會後找個時間到羅明財委員的辦公室"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":691,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，請金管會彭主委、財政部阮次長及央行朱副總裁。"],["主席：請彭主委、財政部阮次長、央行朱副總裁。"],["羅委員明才：主委好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：你要力推臺灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心，立意良善，我們也看到你從上個會期到現在很努力在做，可是周邊單位步伐不一致，造成成效不彰，你們在……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實前面已經有成效，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：財政部大概就是稅的部分，以及央行的部分，你們有沒有成為一個財經的team，可以真的來支持你推動臺灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：我請教財政部。因為主推的是金管會，財政部準備好了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：基本上，我們協助金管會來推動亞洲資產管理中心。"],["羅委員明才：會全力支持，還是做一半？"],["阮次長清華：我們當然全力支持，比如最近在修OIU條例，我們就同意。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。請問央行也準備好了嗎？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們現在有兩個部分，有一部分就是在報告中寫的，已經做的；還有一部分是因為要配合金管會的時序，我們正在擬訂，所以在我們報告中有四個部分，第四點、亞灣專區還在……"],["羅委員明才：不是！副總裁，央行準備好了沒？"],["朱副總裁美麗：是準備在修正，我們外匯局有個team。"],["羅委員明才：因為我看到主委很積極，畢竟剛上任，彭主委是點子王，以及看起來比較年輕、有很高的理想，想要做點事。可是現在即便匯20萬臺幣回來，央行也查三次、四次，當然你們都說是要查洗錢等等。請問央行，說要找國際洗錢已經三年多了，你們這幾年有發現哪一筆是洗錢的、比較大筆的？有沒有？"],["朱副總裁美麗：這個應該不是央行業務的一環。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有？"],["朱副總裁美麗：我問一下，因為這個是外匯局……"],["羅委員明才：外匯局是你們管的，沒關係，你是副總裁，可能剛來還不大清楚。因為要成為亞洲的資產管理中心，勢必需要有一個很自由進出的金融中心，當然你的管控是你的核心，應該要立意良善，就是鼓勵為普遍，有問題再特例抓出來。我們再歸到這個問題，央行去年一整年查獲的洗錢有幾例？金額是多少？"],["蔡局長烱民：洗錢不是央行去查或怎麼樣，而是銀行之間會通報洗錢的主管機關，但是就央行的立場來講，假設不是扣除洗錢方面的，50萬、100萬依目前一些相關的規範，最主要還是為了編製我們的國際收支所需，銀行端會報給我們，大概都是為了方便我們做比較準確的國際收支編製。"],["羅委員明才：所以去年一整年所謂的洗錢防制，真正查到國際洗錢的有幾筆？總金額有多少？"],["蔡局長烱民：這部分我再跟委員報告，我們回去check一下。目前就我了解，應該沒有這樣的數字。"],["羅委員明才：每一次回答都說再check一下，你不是要設亞洲資產管理中心嗎？當主委往前衝的時候，你們就在後面扯後腿，所以造成現在普遍的情況，臺商在講50萬、80萬，明明他的兒子、小孩就在英國念書，匯錢過去是匯到學校，匯一次你要問三次、四次。主委，如果存在的情況這麼嚴苛，請問你要做的亞洲資產管理中心，有哪一個人的錢願意回來臺灣？有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實從金額來看，我們確實在推動的過程當中已經逐步顯現成效，也跟委員稍微說明一下，我們各個部會在過去就非常、非常密集的溝通，沒有委員說的他們扯後腿，倒不會！只是各個部會有自己非常專業的考量，我們都尊重，但是我們持續期望他們給我們一些協助。"],["羅委員明才：本席與公務部門的接觸也有若干的時間了，雖然還沒超過30年，其實一般公務人員都很認真，唯一要突破的破口就是你把三個單位……因為每次我發現你要推，都是A推B、B推C，答案永遠說我要再查查看、我再去了解一下有幾個案例、洗錢總共有多少錢，每次都不斷有題目會出現，造成你的推動力道明顯打折。我建議你一個可以解決的方法……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這個計畫……"],["羅委員明才：這個方法是累積多年的經驗，如果這個方法做不成，那你來找我，我請你吃一碗牛肉麵。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：你要不要試試看？這個方法說難也不難，你就把三個單位、重要的單位、重要的人、可以決定的人全部叫過來。現在是早上11點，你就說為了推動臺灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心，大家心裡都沒有障礙，就從現在11點開始開會，開到中午，肚子餓了叫便當，還沒有結論沒有關係，到了晚上給他們選擇繼續吃便當，你總要給人家選擇，吃排骨飯或是雞腿飯，什麼飯通通可以，你要讓他們有選擇。晚上開完還沒有結論，繼續開就吃宵夜。主委，你要有這個精神才有辦法突破，不然我看半年以來所謂的OBU、OIU，OSU，特別是OIU的部分有沒有成果？"],["彭主任委員金隆：OIU的部分剛剛有說明過，去年基期很低，今年我們有開放新商品跟新的作法，我很有信心，應該一定會有一些成果。"],["羅委員明才：今天是幾月了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：今天是3月31號。"],["羅委員明才：截至3月底之前，OIU做了幾件？金額是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：今年我們有個金額，我請局長馬上補充。"],["羅委員明才：請局長馬上說，去年沒有嘛？今年做了多少？注意聽，這很重要！"],["王局長麗惠：今年到1月份的有效契約件數總共有672件，保費收入……"],["羅委員明才：一百多件？總金額多少？"],["王局長麗惠：到今年1月底的總金額有1,600億左右。"],["羅委員明才：一千多？"],["王局長麗惠：對，1,600億的保費收入。"],["羅委員明才：一千多億，是不是？"],["王局長麗惠：抱歉！一千多萬。"],["羅委員明才：我嚇一跳！我以為是一千多億，所以一百多件，總共是多少？"],["王局長麗惠：去年一整年是3.2……"],["羅委員明才：大聲一點，勇敢說出來！"],["王局長麗惠：到今年1月份為止是1,600萬。"],["羅委員明才：一千多萬！我們龐大的團隊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想所有東西都一定要……"],["羅委員明才：不要講OIU，講一下OSU有幾件？然後總金額有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：OSU請證期局的同仁給委員這個數字，OBU是不是也準備一下？"],["羅委員明才：OBU不用，因為OBU大家都很熟，OSU的部分總共幾件？總金額多少？"],["張局長振山：一千七百多萬。"],["羅委員明才：多少？一千多億？"],["張局長振山：1,725億美元。"],["羅委員明才：一千多億，是不是？"],["張局長振山：對，一千多億。"],["羅委員明才：一千多億？"],["張局長振山：美元喔！一千七百……交易量，就是一千七百多億美元。"],["羅委員明才：多億？有那麼多喔？"],["張局長振山：有啊！OSU是有那麼多。"],["羅委員明才：它那個內容是什麼？為什麼這個金額會……是因為都是外資嗎？外資的進出，還是？"],["張局長振山：主要是自營的部分、自營的買賣所產生的。"],["羅委員明才：自營？買臺股嗎？"],["張局長振山：買臺股。"],["羅委員明才：OK，我們發現買臺股的部分，今天股市暴跌。"],["彭主任委員金隆：今天波動比較大，對。"],["羅委員明才：所以我剛剛講的那個數字，你再參考看看啦，其實那個金額也不多，因為買賣、買賣，像臺灣的成交量就大概五千多億了，所以這個加一加其實跟你的目標還相距非常遠。總之，我希望你們這三個單位要合作，目標要確定出來……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們會持續加強合作，努力的達成協議、做出成績。"],["羅委員明才：好，請問一下主委，今天股市為什麼暴跌？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想今天有很多原因，今天早上從我們前一天的期貨收盤，美國和我們相關連動比較高的指數也做了蠻大的修正，所以我們臺灣是反應國際股市，大概是這樣一個情形。"],["羅委員明才：所以臺股會不會再跌？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我不是分析師，我無法對未來做預測。"],["羅委員明才：如果臺股再暴跌的話，國安基金會不會進場？阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：我想這一次的股市不是只有臺灣的股市，是全球股市……"],["羅委員明才：所以現在還不會進場？"],["阮次長清華：受到美國關稅政策的影響，所以現在充滿了不確定性。"],["羅委員明才：關稅政策的影響？我上次在這邊質詢的時候，所有的官員說影響不大，結果影響不大，台積電已經破1,000塊了，直墜式的下滑。"],["阮次長清華：股市最怕的就是不確定性跟預期心理，所以像這種到目前，因為他是講說4月2號要宣布他的政策，所以現在大家都在觀望。"],["羅委員明才：所以臺股如果再跌1,000點，破2萬以後，國安基金會不會進場？"],["阮次長清華：這個我們到時候會評估啦，如果有必要的話會召開相關委員會議來就這部分……"],["羅委員明才：所以可能會進場，也可能不會進場？"],["阮次長清華：會討論這個事情。"],["羅委員明才：會討論這個事，國安基金會討論這個事。可是國安基金的規模只有5,000億，彭主委，你希望多少億的規模才會夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會沒辦法對這個做評論，因為畢竟我們對資本市場是一個監理……"],["羅委員明才：現在是5,000億吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個要由主政單位來決定。"],["羅委員明才：那你覺得夠不夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才講，我無法對這個做評論。"],["羅委員明才：因為9年前它的規模只有七兆多，現在市值擴大已經超過了幾兆？70兆左右。"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，我來說明一下，可以嗎？"],["羅委員明才：請說。"],["阮次長清華：因為我們國安基金成立的時候是民國89年，那時候的市值大概是……"],["羅委員明才：七兆多？"],["阮次長清華：大概8、9兆。"],["羅委員明才：8、9兆，好，現在多少？"],["阮次長清華：最近大概七十幾兆嘛！"],["羅委員明才：七十幾兆。"],["阮次長清華：有點修正。"],["羅委員明才：大概差了8、9倍啦。"],["阮次長清華：超過九倍多，但是我們……"],["主席：次長，你可能會後找個時間到羅明才委員的辦公室，好不好？"],["羅委員明才：不好意思，超過時間，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：好，瞭解。"],["主席：不好意思。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接續我們請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e55a43ef5bb3c3e3b7ab992d8b3314b746c75f6b5b4b5fbf8cf22a5a2e4754ce135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:59:10 - 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謝謝趙薇 請賴市長賴市長市長好 委員好那個滇交誠意委員會現在確定是不調漲嗎"},{"start":16.058,"end":33.386,"text":"那我之前其實也提出來了我也認為這個兩條路啦一個是政府的撥補一個是調漲電價但是調漲電價對於整個台灣的未來影響太重大了所以我認為其實應該走的是用政府撥補的方式是一個比較好的方式但是"},{"start":34.326,"end":47.074,"text":"整個國會其實並沒有支持啦所以我個人看法應該等到新民意出來之後讓民意來做最後決定也就是說七八月新的民意出來之後那如果新的民意認為還是應該要"},{"start":50.535,"end":66.934,"text":"這個不要撥補漲電價那當然就接受這樣的做法但是如果新民一出來是支持現在政府的方案由政府來撥補電價不要漲電價不要影響到民生的物價那我認為應該就採用這樣的方案次長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":68.436,"end":77.349,"text":"基本上目前台電的這個虧損是過去的這個能源價格飛漲所以我們現在爭取的撥補包括疫後的這個預算500億還有我們113年所提出來的最佳解預算1000億"},{"start":84.52,"end":104.173,"text":"就是為了來彌補台電過去...市長如果未來政府有撥補的話是不是就可以不調漲民生的電價我們會優先從自己的體質的改善來做讓台電公司有一個健全的財務結構的體質如果政府撥補應該是可以不用調漲民生電價是吧"},{"start":105.233,"end":120.758,"text":"這個部分在電價審議委員會裡面有去做一個檢討 但是基本上我們希望說我們可以做的部分我們先做 所以台電公司從去年年底開始他預估雖然今年都是虧損 因為"},{"start":123.665,"end":141.193,"text":"這個電價沒有調轉的關係可以虧損達到這個500億元左右但是他自己開源節流他可以省了150億所以如果有波普的話應該可以朝向部長電價這樣的方向來走這個我們可以來試圖來再盤點一下再看看"},{"start":143.309,"end":145.153,"text":"過去這段時間二國戰爭導致這個油料上漲有6000億的虧損主要的虧損在這邊嘛那現在政府撥補多少進來的"},{"start":154.103,"end":166.752,"text":"500億所以其實還有5500的一個缺口那如果接下來如果未來有2000億再撥補進來的話那適度的一些撥補透過這幾年經濟成長不錯的狀況有盈餘的狀況來撥補我認為這個會比發現金是更好的方式發現金因為這個在解決的是讓民生讓物價不要波動這個對於整個國家的經濟體制這會對於整個民生幫助更大市長應該同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":184.203,"end":206.267,"text":"若是有這些錢進來的話對於台電公司改善他的財務體質會有非常大的一個正面幫助過去因為物價的上漲總共台電背負了6000億左右的支出因為電價被為主而調漲那其中就2600億是屬於照顧民生照顧弱勢的部分"},{"start":206.815,"end":234.728,"text":"是我們希望還是朝這個方向有這個部分由政府來撥補政府有盈利有賺到錢由政府來撥補台電來減損這些減少這些民生的電價調漲而造成的整個物價的波動我認為這個對這個才是一個三贏的方案我認為這是三贏方案對人民好對國家好對台電也好所以我希望還是朝這個方向由七八月新民意出來之後我們希望取得支持之後那一樣由國家來撥補"},{"start":235.908,"end":238.97,"text":"不要來漲民生電價來繼續穩住我們的這個物價我認為這個對長遠的這個台灣的經濟發展整體上是比較好的謝謝委員的建議那113年追加解的預算1000億現在在朝野協商中也通過我們委員會也希望儘快的"},{"start":253.04,"end":277.255,"text":"這個部分就是能趕快的落實對於台電公司現在的這個虧損的狀況應該很可惜啦 基金委員會專業的審查的意見其實到朝野協商都沒有被尊重啦我認為其實這個應該要嚴厲的譴責朝野協商這個機制基金委員會大家經過很多審慎思考多數委員這也長期都在委員會內對這個的思考跟敏感度更高的那經過了很多的思考像上次大概認為其實是凍結30億"},{"start":279.516,"end":299.987,"text":"這個就可以結果到了朝野協商室完全被刪除掉1000億完全不尊重經濟委員會裡面這個各朝野各政黨有藍有綠有白大家的一共識我認為這個其實是不恰當的那我再問一下很多人在講說虧損的原因是包括說是綠電甚至包括核電次長是這樣子的嗎並不是這樣子的"},{"start":303.637,"end":326.158,"text":"從我們3月29我們在FB所提出來的就是委員現在這張slide的這個右下角這個圖卡可以看到即便我們恢復到我們2016年當時核能這個佔比高達16%的這個狀況以現在的這個燃油價格來算的話它的成本還是要將近4塊錢這是第一個第二個"},{"start":330.95,"end":356.041,"text":"我們鄰近的國家韓國他的核能的占比遠高於這個數值他政府撥補的這個預算他的虧損也是比我們台電公司更大過去幾年來台電一直努力不管是颱風風災我們看到說台電的員工很快速的復原請次長跟請經濟部要持續的說明現在有特定的人包括一些立委甚至有"},{"start":357.281,"end":370.43,"text":"廣軍不斷的這樣講講100遍 講1000遍就變事實了現在講的一副好像就是這些巨額的虧損是因為綠電的關係 肥自私 肥油油然後是因為核能的關係 這樣這樣的說法完全是一個錯誤的說法"},{"start":373.952,"end":400.51,"text":"這兩個的占比非常的低而且扶持歷練本來就是國家政策的方向核能本來就是一個還要審慎評估的因為包含核廢料包含核能安全朝野都沒有達成共識嘛沒有共識的東西你用什麼規則這都是假議題阿用這樣的方式占這麼低的占比把六千億完全歸在這裡面這是在顛倒是非這是在模糊視聽我們認為經濟部要持續的說明不然一百次一千次假的就變真的這就是認知作戰好不好"},{"start":401.147,"end":415.573,"text":"是謝謝委員指教那我們也非常感謝台電員工過去的這個付出再來時間有限仁武區的去年淹水兩次從這個凱米到山陀兒次長也很熟悉治水的問題"},{"start":416.954,"end":435.034,"text":"市長全力的支持仁武這個積淹水問題好嗎11.2億請盡速的到位同時間協助仁武仁武是一個快速開發的一個區域那兩次的颱風兩次的淹水這真的是情何以堪所以我認為請部裡面全力的支持這個治水經費沒有問題吧"},{"start":436.115,"end":454.71,"text":"完全沒有問題 包括11.2億之外的我們還有將近12億左右還有包括將近2.5億的應急工程我們都會全力來協助這個都是支持在這個都是我們盤點過必須要優先治理的一個區域對 這個都是在用在人物的這個工程上面嗎 是嗎"},{"start":456.391,"end":477.748,"text":"包括人武啊 包括典寶溪周邊的那個啦它其實是問題你一定要治本才有辦法去更遠的解決問題我們希望徹底解決這個人武周邊的典寶溪周邊這些淹水的問題一個進步的城市 進步的國家真的不能 當然它的好雨量超大啦但是我們還是要努力去克服減輕人民的痛苦"},{"start":478.548,"end":480.991,"text":"因為八控橋跟19萬的經費有4.2億今年會用減一款優先來做 這個確定嘛對不對"},{"start":488.029,"end":508.92,"text":"這個是會我們用節育款優先來進行包括測試的工作那有一些必須要去使用到用地的部分的話我們優先展開這個用地的處理所以這個4.21今年就要來做了這個提早啟動提早完成可以減輕人民的一些這個風險這個請次長署長務必支持好沒問題嗎好我們會來列管好"},{"start":512.802,"end":527.532,"text":"另外啟京的排水我們也花了一億一億啦齁 這個也謝謝市長這個是天文爆炒的這個預算 對那我們能做的 因為我們不可能請人民搬走了嘛他面臨這樣問題 但是我們能做的是透過堤防加高"},{"start":528.332,"end":555.18,"text":"內水的這個堵住然後把抽水機抽除吃個低化地區來優先這個也是在讓旗津這邊的鄉親減少包括大潮包括颱風來的時候的造成的積淹水問題這個也希望如期如質來完成從2025到2627我希望能夠如期如質甚至加快的完成這也請市長來列管來處理好嗎好謝謝好不好這請市長來加速列管好謝謝謝謝市長好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時59分）謝謝召委，請賴次長。"],["主席：賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：次長，電價審議委員會現在確定是不調漲，我之前其實也提出來，我也認為兩條路，一個是政府的撥補，一個是調漲電價，但是調漲電價對於整個臺灣的未來影響太重大，所以我認為其實應該走的是用政府撥補的方式，會是一個比較好的方式，可是整個國會其實並沒有支持。所以我個人的看法，應該等到新民意出來之後，讓民意來作最後的決定，也就是說，7、8月新的民意出來之後，如果新的民意認為還是應該不要撥補，漲電價，那當然就接受這樣的作法；但是如果新民意出來是支持現在政府的方案，由政府來撥補電價，不要漲電價，不要影響到民生的物價，那我認為應該就採用這樣的方案。次長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，目前台電的這個虧損是由於過去的能源價格飛漲，所以我們現在爭取的撥補，包括疫後的預算500億，還有113年所提出來的追加減預算1,000億，都是為了彌補台電過去因為能源價格的虧損……"],["賴委員瑞隆：次長，如果未來政府有撥補的話，是不是就可以不調漲民生的電價？"],["賴次長建信：我們會優先從改善自己的體質做起，讓台電公司有一個健全的財務結構的體質。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果政府撥補，應該是可以不用調漲民生電價，是吧？"],["賴次長建信：這個部分在電價審議委員會裡面有去做一個檢討，但是基本上我們希望可以做的部分我們先做，所以從去年年底開始，台電公司預估，因為電價沒有調整的關係，雖然今年的虧損會達到500億元左右，但是它自己開源節流，可以省下150億……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果有撥補的話，應該可以朝向不漲電價這樣的方向來走。"],["賴次長建信：這個我們可以試圖再盤點一下，再看看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過去這段時間俄烏戰爭導致油料上漲，有6,000億的虧損，主要的虧損在這邊，現在政府撥補多少進來了？"],["賴次長建信：500億元。"],["賴委員瑞隆：500億，所以其實還有5,500億的缺口，如果未來有2,000億再撥補進來的話，透過這幾年經濟成長不錯的狀況、有盈餘的狀況適度來做一些撥補，我認為這個是比發現金更好的方式，因為這個在解決的是讓民生、讓物價不要波動，這個對於整個國家的經濟體制、對於整個民生的幫助更大啦！次長應該同意這樣的看法吧？"],["賴次長建信：如果有這些錢進來的話，對於改善台電公司的財務體質會有非常大的一個正面幫助。過去因為物價的上漲，台電總共背負了6,000億左右的支出，因為電價未足額調漲，其中就有2,600億是屬於照顧民生、照顧弱勢的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，我們希望還是朝這個方向，這個部分由政府來撥補，政府有盈餘、有賺到錢，由政府來撥補台電，減少這些因民生的電價調漲而造成整個物價的波動，我認為這個才是一個三贏的方案，對人民好、對國家好，對台電也好，所以我希望還是朝這個方向。在7、8月新民意出來之後，我們希望取得支持之後，一樣由國家來撥補，不要來漲民生電價，繼續穩住我們的物價，我認為這個對臺灣長遠的經濟發展整體上是比較好的。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員的建議，113年追加減的預算1,000億現在在朝野協商中，也通過我們委員會的審議……"],["賴委員瑞隆：也希望儘快……"],["賴次長建信：這個部分若能趕快落實，對於台電公司現在的這個虧損的狀況應該有相當程度的改善。"],["賴委員瑞隆：很可惜，經濟委員會專業的審查意見其實到朝野協商都沒有被尊重，我認為其實應該要嚴厲的譴責朝野協商這個機制，經濟委員會大家經過很多審慎思考，多數委員也長期都在委員會內，對這個的思考跟敏感度很高，經過了很多的思考，像上次大家也認為其實凍結30億就可以，結果到了朝野協商是完全被刪除掉1,000億，完全不尊重經濟委員會裡面朝野各政黨有藍、有綠、有白大家的一個共識，我認為這個其實是不恰當的。","我再問一下，很多人在講說虧損的原因是包括綠電，甚至於包括核電，次長，是這樣子的嗎？"],["賴次長建信：並不是這樣子的，從我們3月29日在FB所提出來的，也就是委員現在這一張投影片右下角的圖卡可以看到，即便我們恢復到2016年當時核能占比高達16%的這個狀況，以現在的燃油價格來算的話，它的成本還是要將近4塊錢，這是第一個。第二個，我們鄰近的國家──韓國，他的核能的占比遠高於這個數值，但他們政府撥補的預算，它的虧損也是比我們台電公司更大。過去幾年來，台電一直努力，不管是颱風、風災，我們看到所有台電的員工很快速的復原……"],["賴委員瑞隆：請次長跟經濟部要持續的說明，現在有特定的人，包括一些立委，甚至有網軍不斷的這樣講，講100遍、講1,000遍就變事實了，現在講的一副好像這些鉅額的虧損是因為綠電的關係，肥滋滋、肥油油，是因為核能的關係……"],["賴次長建信：這完全不正確……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣的說法完全是一個錯誤的說法，這兩個占比非常的低，而且扶植綠電本來就是國家政策方向，核能本來就是一個還要審慎評估的，因為包括核廢料、包括核能安全，朝野都沒有達成共識，沒有共識的東西有什麼規則？這都是假議題。用這樣的方式，占這麼低的占比，把6,000億完全歸在這裡面，這是在顛倒是非、這是在模糊視聽，我們認為經濟部要持續的說明，不然100次、1,000次，假的就變真的，這就是認知作戰，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：是，謝謝委員指教，我們也非常感謝台電員工過去的付出。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，仁武區去年淹水兩次，從凱米到山陀兒，次長也很熟悉治水的問題，次長，請全力支持仁武的淹水問題，好不好？11.2億請儘速的到位，同時間協助仁武，仁武是一個快速開發的區域，兩次的颱風、兩次的淹水，這真的是情何以堪，所以我認為請部裡面全力的支持這個治水經費，沒有問題吧？"],["賴次長建信：完全沒有問題，包括11.2億之外我們還有將近12億左右，還有包括將近2.5億的應急工程，我們都會全力來協助，這都是我們盤點過必須要優先治理的區域。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，都是在用在仁武的這個工程上面嗎？"],["賴次長建信：包括仁武、包括典寶溪……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，包括周邊的，其實一定要治本才有辦法解決根源的問題，我們希望澈底解決仁武周邊、典寶溪周邊這些淹水的問題，一個進步的城市、進步的國家真的不能……當然它的豪雨量超大，但是我們還是要努力去克服，減輕人民的痛苦，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：是，謝謝委員的指導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，八涳橋跟十九灣的經費有4.2億，今年會用結餘款優先來做，這個確定嘛！對不對？"],["賴次長建信：會，我們會用結餘款優先來進行，包括測設的工作，有一些必須要使用到用地的部分，我們優先展開用地的處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這4.2億今年就會來做，這個提早啟動、提早完成，可以減輕人民的一些風險，請次長、署長務必支持。沒問題嘛？"],["賴次長建信：好，我們會來列管。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，旗津的排水改善計畫我們也花了1億，這個也謝謝次長。"],["賴次長建信：這個是天文暴潮的預算。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為我們不可能請人民搬走，當他們面臨這樣的問題時，我們能做的是透過堤防加高、內水的改善，然後用抽水機抽除，10個低窪地區優先處理，這個也是讓旗津這邊的鄉親減少大潮、颱風來的時候造成的積淹水問題，這個也希望如期如質完成，從2025到26、27，我希望能夠如期如質，甚至加快完成，這也請次長列管來處理，好嗎？"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這請次長來加速列管，謝謝次長。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來請謝衣鳯召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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戰場委員 先進列席政府金管首長官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請金管會彭主委財政部阮次長央行的朱副總裁那最後面呢會請法務部的劉司長準備"},{"start":30.216,"end":44.427,"text":"好 彭主委還有藍次長那還有那個朱副總裁委員好先請教主委主委覺得今天天氣冷嗎還好 可以還好"},{"start":45.455,"end":69.333,"text":"那我覺得今天的詢問你看有點冷清這個題目很重要我看大家寫的洋洋灑灑但是呢感覺上有人一頭熱有人幾頭冷不好意思我這樣說我今天的題目呢叫做國資撐國建本國的資金來撐起本國的基礎建設然後金融市場要國際化那雅灣先試點要導入外商"},{"start":69.953,"end":90.344,"text":"外包括國外的專業者商國外的商品但是要配套好讓我們來往下看一下今天這個題目呢我們的招委定的很大他就是說要促進台灣的金融市場規模發展要如何執行對不對那主委是不是說我們這個題目隱含著台灣的金融市場規模要壯大"},{"start":91.345,"end":120.58,"text":"那當然 我們的金融市場要支撐經濟當然規模要持續的隨著經濟成長那這一點我看央行也很支持央行昨天的新聞就把他們報告人家寫了一篇台灣的超額儲蓄有壯大金融市場規模的效果那執行的策略我看這邊寫了一堆大概都是歐字頭的都是所謂的國際化的事務那為什麼主委認為透過我們的金融國際化可以壯大我們本國的這個金融市場規模"},{"start":121.73,"end":149.306,"text":"我想我們在整個這次主推的是資產管理那資產管理的概念就是說這個資產的所有權是我們的資金擁有者那怎麼樣透過一個專業的團隊幫他做最有效的配置跟所謂的資產的保全我想這是我們在做這當然會促進我們金融市場的發展比如他的徵聘人他的業績會增加 營收會增加這些都是未來整個金融市場發展很重要的業務好 那終究我們要問一個事情啦"},{"start":150.586,"end":176.811,"text":"讓這些高資產者他把他的資產留在國內留資嘛先留資再引資嘛那撞到我們的金融市場然後呢有個目的嘛我們來看一下我舉例啊那麼請三位這個政府看一下我舉豐電為例啦這個我就直接寫出來因為報紙的報導嘛就豐苗一期這是CIP哥本哈根他們這個虱目基金他CIP他所說的為什麼國際的虱目基金要來投資台灣的豐電市場"},{"start":179.139,"end":205.437,"text":"為什麼獲利可期嘛好賺他會再來嘛還在台灣做綠色轉型當然那是我們的目的但是對他來講呢像這種虱目基金他的投報率要高所以顯然的在台灣開闢封廠離岸封廠是投資爆頭率很高的地方如果成功是成功的話那當然高風險高獲利高獲利一定有高風險不見得會成功一旦成功了他再把這個封廠經營權轉給其他的這個合計資金然後呢"},{"start":209.439,"end":233.225,"text":"這個時候呢他就可以從可能的接手的是我們是我們台灣的保險業者是不是這樣是好那我想請問一下你認為既然這個錢可以賺他們說他們這一期呢募得了CI第五期募得了130億美金你認為他從國際上募的資金有沒有台灣的資金去的台灣的高資產各位去買的"},{"start":234.52,"end":258.427,"text":"我想這部分我沒有證據你推論推論我覺得應該以台灣在全球的資金量應該是有參與的可能有參與的可能我問過了沒有為什麼沒有我不清楚但是CIP說他們在第三期第四期台灣的資金參與的還不錯但這成一個問題了CIP它是一個國際的虱目基金"},{"start":259.264,"end":286.045,"text":"他來台灣拿國際資金可以獲得高獲利再分潤給他的一個投資者但是台灣的投資者台灣自己本國的高資產者呢他卻要去參與他的第三期第四期結果他回過來是投資我們台灣重要的工建而這個工建還保證他一定可觀的獲利不是保證啦 很可能啦你覺得這是什麼原因我們來看一下就是今天的再往下 像米其林"},{"start":287.216,"end":306.213,"text":"今天我們說為什麼要推動雅灣台灣的有錢人去哪裡吃米其林在全球各地所以這些米其林的大廚吸引全世界各地的老饕美食家有錢人去他那邊吃"},{"start":307.301,"end":335.701,"text":"那現在如果我們引進一個米其林的大廚來到台灣他有可能就是把我們國內要去國際吃的這些美食家有錢人就不用出國啦就在國內可以吃啦是不是這樣子那初期經營要先找國外的大廚來嘛或許未來可以培養我們國內的米其林天廚是不是這樣這是一個方法而且這個米其林天廚如果培養出來了會吸引國際的有錢人老饕來到台灣吃"},{"start":336.872,"end":357.867,"text":"那這樣的比喻,那對台灣來講,多幾家本土的米其林天廚跟米其林餐廳有什麼好處?除了滿足其他國家的有錢人之外,我們得到什麼?當然這個除了我們當本地客戶可以就地得到國際級的服務以外,另外也會吸引到國際的人來這邊接受服務。"},{"start":359.042,"end":382.567,"text":"重點是他是用本國的食材啦我覺得他可以大量採用本國的食材所以我們現在往上看往回跳這是日本的方式嘛所以我們今天我們要做亞灣我們心中的目標初期台灣沒有米其林餐廳沒有米其林天廚我們開一家餐廳請外國的天廚來他帶來外國的食材帶來外國的料理帶來外國的菜單"},{"start":383.507,"end":403.799,"text":"但是呢可能是外國的饕客來吃但是呢可以造福本國的饕客但終究我們希望未來台灣多幾家米其林餐廳多自己本國的天廚使用本國的食材這是我們的目的嘛是的好那現在呢我們的次長我們的副總裁我來看一下"},{"start":405.29,"end":417.411,"text":"這裡面請問財政部你認為在推動這個事項上台灣作為亞洲資產管理中心台灣要設一個亞灣的試點財政部幫忙了什麼事情"},{"start":419.349,"end":444.662,"text":"你們幫了什麼事情我們第一個就是要就是基本上我們有兩大部分那你直接講你們覺得你們做了什麼事今晚會覺得你們幫上嗎第一個就是可以增加這個公共建設相關的金融商品我們是鼓勵會發行這個永續債你們這裡面大概在第三頁啦才第二大段一點點來 彭主委你認為跨部會協助財政部協助你什麼"},{"start":446.365,"end":469.42,"text":"財政部在我們在協助OIU租稅優惠延伸協助OSU延伸都沒什麼然後呢鼓勵公股銀行財政部鼓勵公股銀行進入專區這個都很基本的嘛然後呢提供TESA的租稅建議有嗎其實在我們一開始接觸的時候你們拜託財政部提供的TESA的租稅優惠財政部有幫忙什麼嗎"},{"start":470.311,"end":486.145,"text":"財政部在一開始給我們很多的資訊跟一些的思考我覺得非常感謝第一個就是比如說上次我們在前一次說明的一個就是主委你講的很客氣我問過財政部趁你不在的時候他說他們提供的這個租車優惠很夠用的不過用不完我請他們回去盤點"},{"start":487.642,"end":509.528,"text":"到現在呢還不曉得但是倒是有一個我很好奇的您說財政部有協助你們與本位及櫃買中心建立三方聯繫機制協助各級政府辦理發債有嗎現在有地方政府透過你們的協助開始發債了嗎這是我們在造園投資計畫裡面我們以內公債有嗎今年還是創新低耶"},{"start":511.302,"end":530.299,"text":"我們還是有各個地方政府發永續債還是有來財政部你們有幫忙嗎幫忙地方政府發債了嗎目前地方政府已經發了永續債已經發了157億那我們會持續來鼓勵他們以內公債是不是有史以來最低的以內公債的更多以內公債目前我統治的結果是三年來最低的"},{"start":531.039,"end":554.873,"text":"但是到目前為止已經發行了大概1474億這部分是我一列公債所以永續債這一部分那我們現在已經就要求地方政府能夠如果符合我們希望未來這個雅資中心引進來國際的資金是來購買我們本地的尤其地方政府可以保障它的基層建設地方建設公共建設基礎建設包裝成商品來出賣給他們對不對所以我們才說"},{"start":564.366,"end":570.017,"text":"央行協助今晚會在推動雅灣或者是說雅致中心做了哪些事情你們寫的很多呢"},{"start":574.544,"end":588.579,"text":"我們請大家看到 換到我們的夜市我知道 夜市 夜舞 我講完啦但是你看完了對不對 你有沒有看財政部怎麼寫財政部只有第二大項 中央營養協助四項 1 2 3"},{"start":590.633,"end":616.215,"text":"第二點,OIU商品多元化,OIU新設計還有第三點,把你們的結會金額個人從500提高到1000公司有5000萬提高到1億你們做那麼多,你們寫那麼多,財政部今晚會認為說你們就幫幫他這些事情而已我們央行寫的比較總體就是用分類那財政部講的都在我們這些裡面好,我今天坦白說我看了三個部位的報告"},{"start":616.994,"end":620.598,"text":"開放家族辦公室的業務這是誰開放的這是我們先開放我們可以做諮詢服務業務目前用什麼方式可以達到家業或財務傳承"},{"start":638.971,"end":664.834,"text":"他現在當然我們現在幾個工具啦一個比如信託還有就是說我們現在的做一個財富管理的部分本來就有幫助你剛講到關鍵字信託這是我們舉一個例子我們把他的名字引航起來這是一個家族企業要財富傳承的目的大概是這個架構那怎麼樣確保家族成員出售股權造成家族企業的資本這個股權外流而將家族財產信託會遇到什麼問題"},{"start":666.362,"end":690.673,"text":"當然就是現在比如說我們現在的信託架構當然跟相較於比如說其他國家我們有看比如說他們的信託的那個期間可以很長比如說有些沒有期限有些100年那台灣的架構呢是這樣不過我們有跟法務部在做協調法務部也給我們提出一些想法來我們看一下這是我們法務部司長"},{"start":692.421,"end":715.267,"text":"這是一個國售的李長庚先生他說台灣的信託法是一大障礙很多有些人不能愛台灣只有進入戶口名簿的名字才能收益人以至於家族傳承的資金都跑到海外去做財管為什麼?市長現在台灣的信託法第三代上位出生的或者說還沒有結婚的可以成為信託的收益人嗎?未來"},{"start":716.526,"end":729.019,"text":"現在委員的詢問因為這涉及到我們信託法現行的法制能不能符合未來財政部金管會的相關的需求那整個設計上因為這個議題涉及到所謂的"},{"start":732.603,"end":745.632,"text":"目的失業 目的信託的問題目的信託對 涉及到目的信託那因為目的信託現在在信託法的解釋上有不同的見解有人認為信託法可以規範已經有規範目的信託有些認為沒有規範"},{"start":749.394,"end":778.176,"text":"到底現在這個問題能解決嗎那因為目的信託它最主要是沒有受益人目的信託最主要是因為沒有受益人那它相關的制度呢它需要的相關的制度跟現行的信託法還沒有辦法完全的吻合所以法務部目前正在研修信託法那我們目前優先研議的是公益信託接下來就會繼續研議金管會所提到的目的信託好來 彭主席最後一句主席站起來了"},{"start":778.656,"end":803.431,"text":"聽到沒有 您聽到了他們優先研議公益信託你們希望的第二步在做所以是不是 主委要怎麼樣請法務部可以積極的來協助你們如果真的要做高資產客戶包括這些家族辦公室包括做財富傳承在國內 國外的法制它沒有問題國內有問題國內遇到這個問題怎麼解決 多久可以解決可以跟法務部一起共同研究來處理嗎"},{"start":804.603,"end":826.049,"text":"當然我想除了剛剛修信託法是一個解決方法以外其實我們也還可以研議其他的方式來怎麼樣去解決不用修法就可以解決嗎我們正在研究我現在不敢說這是一個肯定的不過我們先因為修法畢竟是一個比較久不確定性比較高假設有其他方式比如說我們還有主管的信託業法"},{"start":826.969,"end":854.004,"text":"那這部分如果說有這個空間的話我們一起來努力反正老問題 新方法我們來試試看等等等等 各位主席 等一下信託業法跟信託法是不一樣的一個是規範信託業者一個是規範信託的本質剛剛說目的信託因為目的信託的受益人這個部分的問題造成台灣跟其他國家國家做財富傳承的時候他們不會有這個問題那台灣我們就會遇到這個司法性的問題所以多久可以跟法務部共同來 請法務部"},{"start":855.718,"end":877.945,"text":"協助或你們共同怎麼樣把這個問題做解決嗎是 因為這是行政院的政策我想法務部你私下再跟嘉賓委員做報告了那主委呢我們當然希望法務部盡快的來協助我們啦好 謝謝我希望呢 在下次在談這個議題呢各部位的報告啊 最好能夠對準啦不要說 央行說你們做了一堆"},{"start":878.985,"end":891.092,"text":"金管會看到只有三段財政部做的事情跟金管會期待的好像有點落差在這年之後我們希望再請召委繼續排定這個議題我們共同來推動好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":588,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時45分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請金管會彭主委、財政部阮次長、央行朱副總裁，最後請法務部的劉司長準備。"],["主席：好，彭主委、阮次長、朱副總裁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先請教主委，主委覺得今天天氣冷嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得今天的詢問有點冷清，這個題目很重要，我看大家寫得洋洋灑灑，但是感覺上有人一頭熱，有人幾頭冷，不好意思，我這樣說。我今天的題目叫做「國資撐國建」，本國的資金來撐起本國的基礎建設，然後金融市場要國際化，那亞灣四點要導入外商，包括國外的專業者、國外的商品，但是要配套。","今天這個題目召委訂得很大，意思是要促進臺灣的金融市場規模發展，要如何執行，主委，這個題目是不是隱含著臺灣的金融市場規模要壯大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，我們的金融市場要支撐經濟，當然規模要持續的隨著經濟成長而……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這一點我看央行也很支持，昨天的新聞就針對央行的報告寫了一篇「臺灣的超額儲蓄有壯大金融市場規模的效果」，那執行的策略，我看這邊寫了一堆，大概都是O字頭的，都是所謂的國際化事務，那為什麼主委認為透過我們的金融國際化可以壯大我們本國的金融市場規模？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這次主推的是資產管理，資產管理的概念就是資產的所有權是我們的資金擁有者，那怎麼樣透過一個專業的團隊，幫他做最有效的配置跟所謂的資產的保全，我想這是我們在做的。這當然會促進我們金融市場的發展，比如他會增聘人，他的業績會增加、營收會增加，這些都是未來整個金融市場發展很重要的業務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：終究我們要問一個事情，讓這些高資產者把他的資產留在國內，先留資再引資，壯大我們的金融市場，然後有個目的，我們來看一下，我舉風電為例，這個我就直接寫出來，因為報紙報導有渢妙一期，這是哥本哈根私募基金CIP所說的，為什麼國際的私募基金要來投資臺灣的風電市場？獲利可期嘛！好賺它才會來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，來臺灣做綠色轉型。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，那是我們的目的，但是對它來講，像這種私募基金的投報率要高，所以顯然在臺灣開闢離岸風場是投資報酬率很高的地方。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果成功的話是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那當然高風險、高獲利，高獲利一定有高風險，不見得會成功，一旦成功了，它再把這個風場經營權轉給其他的……這個時候可能接手的是我們臺灣的保險業者，是不是這樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我想請問一下，你認為既然這個錢可以賺，他們說他們這一期CI第5期募得了130億美金，你認為它在國際上募的資金有沒有臺灣的資金？臺灣的高資產客戶去買的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這部分我沒有證據……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你推論、推論。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得以臺灣在全球的資金量能，應該是有參與的可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問過了，沒有！為什麼沒有？我不清楚，但是CIP說，他們在第3期、第4期臺灣的資金參與得還不錯，但這成一個問題了，CIP是一個國際的私募基金，它來臺灣拿國際資金可以獲得高獲利，再分潤給它的投資者，但是臺灣本國的高資產者卻要去參與它的第3期、第4期，結果它回過來是投資我們臺灣重要的公建，而這個公建還保證它一定可觀的獲利，不是保證啦，很可能啦！你覺得這是什麼原因？我們來看一下，今天我們為什麼要推動亞灣？臺灣的有錢人去哪裡吃米其林？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在全球各地。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這些米其林的大廚吸引全世界各地的老饕、美食家、有錢人去他那邊吃，現在如果我們引進一個米其林的大廚來到臺灣，那我們國內要去國際吃的這些美食家、有錢人可能就不用出國了，因為在國內可以吃了，是不是這樣？那初期經營要先找國外的大廚來，或許未來可以培養我們國內的米其林天廚，是不是這樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是一個方法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，而且這個米其林天廚如果培養出來了，會吸引國際的有錢人、老饕來臺灣吃，這樣的比喻對臺灣來講，多幾家本土的米其林天廚跟米其林餐廳有什麼好處，除了滿足其他國家的有錢人之外，我們得到什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，除了我們本地客戶可以就地得到國際級的服務以外，另外會吸引到國際的人來這邊接受服務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：重點是他是用本國的食材。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得他可以大量採用本國的食材，我們看投影片這是日本的方式，所以今天我們要做亞灣，我們心中有一個目標，初期臺灣沒有米其林餐廳、沒有米其林天廚，我們開一家餐廳請外國的天廚來，他帶來外國的食材、帶來外國的料理、帶來外國的菜單，可能是外國的饕客來吃，但是可以造福本國的饕客，但終究我們希望未來臺灣多幾家米其林餐廳，多幾個本國的天廚使用本國的食材，這是我們的目的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們的次長、我們的副總裁，請問財政部，你認為在推動這個事項上，臺灣作為亞洲資產管理中心，臺灣要設一個亞灣的試點，財政部幫忙了什麼事情？"],["阮次長清華：我們基本上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們幫了什麼事情？"],["阮次長清華：我們第一個就是……基本上我們有兩大部分啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你直接講，你覺得你們做了什麼事，金管會會覺得你們有幫上忙？"],["阮次長清華：第一個就是可以增加公共建設相關的金融商品嘛，我們是鼓勵會發行永續債。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概在報告第2頁，第二大段才一點點。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，彭主委，你認為跨部會協助，財政部協助了你什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：財政部在我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：協助了OIU租稅優惠延伸？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：協助了OSU延伸，這都沒什麼啊！財政部鼓勵公股銀行進駐專區，這個都很基本的嘛，然後提供TISA的租稅建議，有嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實在我們一開始接觸……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們拜託財政部提供TISA的租稅優惠，財政部有幫忙什麼嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：財政部在一開始給我們很多資訊跟一些思考，我覺得非常感謝，第一個，比如說上次我們在前一次說明的就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，你講得很客氣，我問過財政部，趁你不在的時候，他說他們提供的這個租稅優惠很夠用了，國人用不完啦！我請他們回去盤點，到現在還不曉得，倒是有一個我很好奇的，您說財政部有協助你們於本會、櫃買中心建立三方聯繫機制，協助各級政府辦理發債，有嗎？現在有地方政府透過你們的協助開始發債了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是我們在兆元投資計畫裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們乙類公債有嗎？今年還是創新低耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們各個地方政府還是有發永續債，還是有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，財政部，你們有幫忙地方政府發債了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：目前地方政府已經發了永續債157億，我們會持續來鼓勵他們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：乙類公債，是不是有史以來最低的？"],["阮次長清華：乙類公債的更多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：乙類公債，目前我統計的結果是三年來最低的。"],["阮次長清華：但是到目前為止，已經發行的大概1,474億，所以這一部分是乙類公債，至於永續債這一部分，我們現在已經就要求地方政府如果能夠符合規定的，儘量都來發。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們希望未來亞資中心引進國際的資金是來購買我們本地的，尤其地方政府可以保障到它的地方建設、公共建設、基礎建設，包裝成商品來賣給他們，對不對？有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，所以我們才說要增加相關的商品嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我要請教一下朱副總裁，央行協助金管會在推動亞灣或亞資中心做了哪些事情？你們寫了很多。"],["朱副總裁美麗：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們……"],["朱副總裁美麗：好，我們請大家翻到報告頁4"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道頁4、頁5，我都講完了。"],["朱副總裁美麗：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你看完了對不對？你有沒有看過財政部怎麼寫？"],["朱副總裁美麗：有，他們有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：財政部只有第二大項，中央銀行協助事項的第2點OIU商品多元化、OIU設計新種保險商品，還有第3點把你們的結匯金額，個人從500萬美元提高到1,000萬美元；公司由5,000萬美元提高到1億美元，你們做那麼多、寫那麼多，但金管會認為你們就幫它這些事情而已。"],["朱副總裁美麗：我們央行寫的比較總體，就是用分類，而財政部講的都在我們這些裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，今天坦白說，我看了三個部會的報告，就是覺得有點對不上焦，一頭熱多頭冷。我們來看一下，主委，開放家族辦公室的業務，這是誰開放的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是我們先開放，可以做諮詢服務業務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前用什麼方式可以達到家業或財富傳承？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在當然有幾個工具，一個比如信託，還有現在做財富管理的部分，本來就有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛講到關鍵字「信託」，這是我們舉一個例子，我們把它的名字隱藏起來，這是一個家族企業要財富傳承的目的，大概是這個架構，怎麼樣為避免家族成員出售股權造成家族企業的股權外流，而將家族財產信託？會遇到什麼問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在的信託架構相較於其他國家，比如說他們信託的期間可以很長，有些沒有期限、有些100年，那臺灣的架構是這樣，不過我們有跟法務部在做協調，法務部也給我們一些想法，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，法務部司長，這是國壽的總經理李長庚先生，他說：臺灣的信託法是一大障礙，很多有錢人不能愛臺灣，只有進入戶口名簿的名字才能是受益人，以至於家族傳承的資金都跑到海外去做財管。為什麼？司長，現在臺灣的信託法，第三代尚未出生的或還沒有結婚的，可以成為信託的受益人嗎？未來。"],["劉司長英秀：謝謝委員的詢問。因為這個涉及到信託法現行的法制能不能符合未來金管會的相關需求，整個設計上，因為這個議題涉及到目的信託的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目的信託。"],["劉司長英秀：對，涉及到目的信託，因為目的信託現在在信託法的解釋上有不同的見解，有人認為信託法已經有規範目的信託，有些認為沒有規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那現在這個問題能解決嗎？"],["劉司長英秀：因為目的信託最主要是沒有受益人，它需要的相關制度跟現行的信託法還沒有辦法完全的吻合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以重點了。"],["劉司長英秀：所以法務部目前正在研修信託法，我們目前優先研議的是公益信託，接下來就會繼續研議金管會所提到的目的信託。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，彭主委，最後一句話，主席站起來了，聽到了沒有？您聽到了喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們優先研議公益信託，你們希望的第二步再做，所以主委，要怎麼樣請法務部可以積極的來協助你們？如果真的要做高資產客戶，包括家族辦公室、財富傳承，在國外的法制沒有問題，國內有問題，國內遇到這個問題怎麼解決？多久可以解決？可以跟法務部一起共同研究來處理嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我想除了剛才修信託法是一個解決方法以外，其實我們也還可以研議其他的方式來怎麼樣去解決，我們也跟……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不用修法就可以解決嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們正在研究，我現在不敢說這是一個肯定的，不過我們先……因為修法畢竟比較久、不確定性比較高，假設還有其他方式，比如還有主管的信託業法，這部分如果有這個空間的話，我們一起來努力，反正老問題新方法，我們來試試看。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等一下、等一下，對不起，信託業法跟信託法是不一樣的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個是規範信託業者，一個是規範信託的本質，剛剛說目的信託，因為目的信託的受益人這個部分的問題，造成臺灣跟其他國家……其他國家要做財富傳承的時候，他們不會有這個問題，但臺灣就會遇到適法性的問題，所以多久可以跟法務部共同……","法務部，你們可以協助或怎麼樣共同把這個問題解決嗎？"],["劉司長英秀：是，因為這是行政院的政策……"],["主席：法務部私下再跟佳濱委員報告，不好意思。"],["劉司長英秀：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，主委呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然希望法務部儘快來協助我們。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。我希望下次再討論到這個議題，各部會的報告最好能夠對準，不要央行說你們做了一堆，金管會卻只有三段，財政部做的事情跟金管會期待的好像有點落差，之後再請召委繼續排定這個議題，我們共同來推動，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝佳濱委員。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 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各位委員有請經濟部次長還有工業部次長黃次長兩位好今天的議題非常的好我們針對經濟部的報告裡面也特別提到"},{"start":74.569,"end":101.42,"text":"這個防洪治理將以流域系統性治水的五大策略進行這個這裡面都提了非常重要的這個治理的一個原則當然很重要的就是怎麼樣去落實執行落實執行我先把這個一些讓這個兩位了解一下"},{"start":102.472,"end":128.251,"text":"距離台東縣池上鄉望安溪上禮拜我也跟水利署的同仁還有八合集的同仁也去會堪像這個對於我們的農田造成了很大的損害只要一下大雨就會造成這樣的一個"},{"start":131.018,"end":158.175,"text":"而且這個如果這個一直在擴大的話也會影響到這個相關的橋所以這個部分是一個需要去加強去防治的一個部分當然這裡面有需要去進行的部分這個是屬於這個水利署的部分當然還有很多的我只是幾個幾個案例"},{"start":159.366,"end":185.013,"text":"那這個所以怎麼樣去加強防範是一個很重要的當然有的會涉及到人身安全那我們接著看這個農業部的這個農業部的我們以112年9月4號海葵颱風造成這個受風箱三邊路整個房子都淹埋都被淹埋這個"},{"start":188.909,"end":213.395,"text":"都被淹沒這個部分等一下請農業部說明一下這個112年到現在有沒有有沒有做一個整治如果還要查的話再把書面資料提供給我好不好這個都是直接的傷害這個這個也是"},{"start":218.291,"end":245.029,"text":"另外就是去年 去年這也是水利署的 那個農業部的 農業部水保署的康瑞颱風造成一里鎮延城部落這整個房子都淹埋了 都淹埋了所以這個部分 這個表示這個這個源頭源頭沒有整治好 就造成這樣還好啊 人都沒有怎麼樣啊"},{"start":246.329,"end":261.707,"text":"所以這個部分是一個另外就是花蓮豐濱港口這個也是上面的土石流移下來先請經濟部次長"},{"start":268.415,"end":296.022,"text":"委員我們東部地區都是我們遭受颱風第一級的區域不管是台東或是花蓮去年行政院來支援這兩個縣市政府都有相關的傾訴的工作包括委員所提到的剛剛講的萬安溪的部分據我們了解它是沒有自己計畫的但是從照片中顯示我們必須要去做緊急的所謂的應急工程"},{"start":296.542,"end":324.333,"text":"那這個應急工程我們會用開口合約的方式會讓趕快去進場去把它應有的培後、應有的保護先把它做起來那總體上面的話我們還是回到我們原來的框架裡面系統性的治理針對縣市館的部分我們希望它加速去做整體的評估規劃包應該清書的地方去清書然後應該做治理工程的部分去做治理工程"},{"start":325.053,"end":345.295,"text":"至於協助地方政府的預算現在已經通過我們立法院的聯席委員會的一個審查我們希望趕快通過這個預算可以讓這個治理工作可以加緊來掌握住讓我們的民眾及早擺脫這些所謂的威脅以上"},{"start":346.601,"end":366.988,"text":"好 那個農業部要不要說明一下報告委員剛剛委員所提的幾個案例的話那我們在會後會提供詳細的書面報告跟委員報告我們相關復建的進度那第二個部分就是因為台東的這個部分因為如果颱風由東部而來的話它是直接的受封面所以特別是在一些河道彎區的這個地點"},{"start":368.448,"end":389.467,"text":"那特別容易成這個災區那所以我們這個農村水保署也增加了這些新增的這些潛勢溪流遇自災的這個地區那進行這個監控管理那也會一併的把這些相關的這個資料提供給委員做參考 以上好 這個重要的這個無論是經濟部還是農業部"},{"start":393.174,"end":398.554,"text":"重要的就是說除了提供資料之外很重要的就是要去"},{"start":400.652,"end":425.081,"text":"還沒有完成的要繼續的加強因為這個部分是已經造成這麼大的損害還好真的是人沒有怎麼樣所以這個部分是一個我們需要去加強把這個相關的經費其實這個應該都可以以這個相關的這些災害的這些遺患計劃都應該去進行好 這個農業部先回座"},{"start":430.356,"end":458.388,"text":"那個次長經濟部這個我們現在接下來談這個水價的部分這個今天這個自來水公司要把這個水價的部分調漲是否調漲會送到這個經濟部這個請問一下次長現在有收到了嗎"},{"start":460.32,"end":485.636,"text":"台水公司剛剛已經有說明他今天下班前會把資料送到送出來那我們還沒看到資料我們不便於評價但是基本上站在經濟部的立場我們希望台水公司優先從自己的部分經營的部分可以去做檢討比如說台電公司過去就要檢討從四大面向不管說從生產"},{"start":487.097,"end":512.826,"text":"包括管理的部分可以減省那當然我們對於台水公司31年來因為水價沒有辦法調整然後沒有辦法去改善他的這個進水的措施我們也要全面性的檢視台水公司的這個建議然後我們希望在優先不影響我們的社會經濟的發展然後照顧民生的這個原則之下來妥善的來檢視這個計畫的一個可行性這個"},{"start":517.614,"end":545.901,"text":"次長你最清楚了這個因為你在水利署很久事實上自來水公司第一個當然就是他的管線所有的管線事實上都是公務預算都是經濟部水利署所有這個譬如說從從沒有自來水到開始有自來水"},{"start":547.251,"end":572.218,"text":"都是政府的等於都是人民的納稅錢去興建這些自來水的相關的這些系統當然後來移交給這個自來水公司之後自來水公司有他的需要他負擔的部分沒有錯但是如果我們看整個政府以人民的納稅錢投入進去的"},{"start":575.532,"end":602.605,"text":"所以這個部分是我不認為是要調帳啊我不認為是要去調帳因為整個大部分幾乎幾乎的經費都是政府與人民的納稅錢所投入的這個給這個經濟部做一個重要的一個參考好謝謝委員指教所以我是不建議希望應該不要調帳謝謝好謝謝委員指教"},{"start":605.742,"end":606.284,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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我是問你啦哪個賠最多嘛"},{"start":171.189,"end":195.59,"text":"你可以講你的天然氣可能還賠了15億問題是你風電賠了56光電賠了5.8而且它量很少耶你的天然氣已經超過50%了對不對左邊不是我們的財報啦右邊這個才是啊那我跟委員所說明的核能佔比最高的韓國它超過了30%事實上它的電價漲幅還比我們更高"},{"start":196.531,"end":212.339,"text":"所以基本上我目前六千億的虧損為什麼說上個禮拜五電價審議委員會要討論這麼久我們逐一的來核算報告所委員所指導的部分事實上這些虧損不是台電的經營不善的主因市長你現在"},{"start":214.5,"end":234.768,"text":"要讓我們人民的電價不只不要漲要降你現在可以看你破洞破在哪個地方嘛我就很清楚跟你講破洞你看很清楚對不對破洞最大是哪裡風電嘛對不對就是用比例來看都是光啊就是再生能源啊那這個是可以改的第一個你現在開始在賣RE RE30對不對你要多賣一點第二個不要買太貴的還有一個還有一個賺錢的呢"},{"start":240.916,"end":266.401,"text":"核能賺多少錢?核能在今年一月份還幫你們賺錢賺了八億多欸核能如果核一沒有重啟核二、核三都可以用的話一年是一千億欸你把賺錢的一千億把它丟掉然後呢?你在賽車農園這一塊你又多花錢你當然就漲價啊來,我再跟你講你現在最嚴重的問題你一直在講天然氣的價格"},{"start":270.353,"end":294.271,"text":"一直漲上次在去年我第一次質詢這個王美花跟陳建仁院長的時候他們就已經承認這一點啊我們的天然氣在2022年跟2023年到達一個高峰對不對2023年兩年前就降下來了對不對你看一下這個趨勢圖看到沒有看到沒有到2025年現在的趨勢現在的天然氣是不是跟2018 2019只多了一點點來我要更進一步給你看看下一張圖"},{"start":301.82,"end":307.403,"text":"最近這三年天然氣的發電量跟購買金額你天然氣越買越多從110年的3260到112年3434到今年3296最嚴重是優編你沒有發現他的平均單價已經在降了嘛結果你一直在對外講說我們的天然氣很貴113年有沒有比112年便宜有沒有有沒有降下來"},{"start":333.261,"end":337.267,"text":"這個數字並不是我們台電的財務的報表或是我們電價審議委員會所討論的部分"},{"start":346.772,"end":362.804,"text":"那事實上 討論重點是不是不是 市長你的意思是 基本上我們的本價審議委員會有志之士 當初是有修正好我們讓專家跟外部委員多了1%所以這次他們做了一個非常公平的顧及到不要衝擊到物價不要衝擊到這個產業 很好啊可是你現在誤導啊"},{"start":367.367,"end":386.875,"text":"人家已經做了不要漲價而且要檢討你整個成本那你就我給你看的是非常具體的第一個天然氣在兩年前已經降下來了這個很清楚吧113年一度的話2.75比112年的3.17便宜很多吧這是天然氣第二個你的再生能源你的風跟電"},{"start":388.857,"end":399.942,"text":"光 確實買太貴嘛那我也知道你們現在改進了我今天又跟你講 R130你要趕快賣你用那貴的價格買進來 趕快要賣出去對不對 這個漏洞之後變少來 我們看一下另外是核電的問題核電啦 核一跟核二核三一年差不多400多億度的電嘛 對不對"},{"start":410.714,"end":423.761,"text":"你現在核電一度 成本一塊多嘛你現在所有的電是三塊多嘛 對不對每賣一度電 大概會賺兩塊多啊400多億度 乘起來就是一千億耶好 所以我做個簡單總結那個 市長"},{"start":426.991,"end":441.848,"text":"第一不要一直在講天然氣成本高漲這個問題它在前年就這樣下來了第二個你的再生能源我今天給你看的是報表光是一夜噴的時候你的風跟電跟光就賠了那麼多"},{"start":443.169,"end":459.174,"text":"它占所有有總發電量的8點多%結果賠掉了你的60幾%這當然就是表示問題啊所以第一個你要去不要買那麼貴第二個買進來以後不用髒電的價格賣出去你讓那個距離讓這個虧損可以減少第二個趕快重啟核電"},{"start":462.975,"end":480.774,"text":"今天教委委員會已經在審了我們先把法源通過之後我們可以做一個可以重啟核電延長核電日本已經在重啟啊美國在重啟南韓也在重啟啊你別說南韓南韓就是電價太高啊所以他兩年多前他開始在重啟核電啊讓他的電價會降下來啊"},{"start":483.817,"end":497.695,"text":"人家全世界都在做那台灣到底是什麼全世界只有民進黨政府跟世界潮流要對算嗎並沒有並沒有我請那個總經理再說明包委員其實有很多數字都有問題啦你剛剛提很多都有問題包括第一個綠電綠電的部分"},{"start":500.273,"end":521.818,"text":"目前留在台電手上的囤購大概都是比較早期因為我們要鼓勵再生能源所以當時的囤購費比較高那部分還在台電其他的像今年的那些太陽能幾乎都便宜的都出去了所以也就是說再生能源繼續發展下去它的成本是會越來越低的可是你的再生能源到現在你價格還是在往上走對不對"},{"start":522.598,"end":544.205,"text":"價格大概今年到明年就是到頂的接著下來就是往下的到頂都還是很高啊我給他看一下發展再生能源是全世界各國的趨勢這個出奇的鼓勵是一定要做的總經理你看一下我們是理性物質科學在問政我們讓書記講話最近這三年再生能源這個價格你看110年平均單價多少"},{"start":546.699,"end":571.341,"text":"4.75到了112年上升5.20到了去年5.46一直在往上走耶當初蔡英文總統跟我們講我們買的這個電再生能源這個量會變大以後價格就降下來到現在不只沒降啊還在漲啊所以已經持續在降了只是說各位您也知道那個數字整體量是慢慢往下但是今年的量"},{"start":572.442,"end":576.326,"text":"價格已經都一直往下了就是這個價格我們還會檢視今年2016到2020氣價的均價是9塊到目前為止我們預估是15.4塊那基本上還是在相對的高檔"},{"start":587.19,"end":614.277,"text":"所以跟委員所說明的是我們經過這個討論事實上這兩年確實是一個國際燃料價格的一個高峰那現在雖然稍微委員講說有稍微降下來是回到這個情況對啊 降下來而且你從一月份看得出來嘛它虧損沒有那麼嚴重啦它跟疫情前的話來 我們做個結論啦它跟疫情前還是相對來天然氣在兩年前已經降下來了你說稍微高一點點也沒有造成你很嚴重的虧損你去跟風"},{"start":617.278,"end":626.424,"text":"風電跟光電比這個洞是最大的所以你要趕快去補這個最大的洞第二個大的洞就是核電跟112年的能源價格飛漲的一個狀況那剛剛委員所講的是舉兩年前的這個狀況這個"},{"start":634.994,"end":645.402,"text":"跟我們剛剛敘述的是不一樣的事情因為那兩年的話是虧了六千億所以你已經補了三次三千億啊漲了四次電價啊漲了四十趴欸市長你們用人民的納稅錢民脂民膏三千億已經補上去了漲了四次的這個電價該補該補該把這兩年的該夠了吧該夠了吧"},{"start":663.697,"end":681.976,"text":"過去台電公司我們實質撥補給台電公司只有500億其中2500億是為了投資未來讓台電的電網更韌性韌性更好 它是增資的增資不能來抵抵下這個時候的開支的部分你已經漲了人民市市電價漲了40幾%你說這兩年的"},{"start":687.721,"end":711.602,"text":"還補不過來嗎而且現在已經回到這個原點了好更重要的你現在開源節流嘛我告訴你你地電趕快不要買那麼貴趕快多賣出去你的收入就會進來嘛對不對我看你的五大改革裡面有這一項嘛要多賣然後第二個核電我們今天教科文教文委員會已經在審了趕快重建核電比我們高出那麼多"},{"start":712.623,"end":731.814,"text":"它的價格成本比我們更高而且他們撥補的這個預算啊還曾經比我們現在台電公司所說的五百億元更高啊市長這是用卡達夫形容好不好不是當然全世界美國連歐盟現在都在重啟核電嘛就是因為不只穩定電價是低的嘛"},{"start":732.634,"end":758.271,"text":"那你現在就是讓你現在既然有虧損當然就是用便宜的電啊所以才講到說核電是要重啟的第二個你買了太貴的這個再生能源你想辦法要買便宜一點嘛對不對第二個趕快把它賣出去嘛這個沒有爭議啊現在所有再生能源的所有的平均的成本慢慢會下降但另外事實上所新的是看到今年一月份一月份都還沒有降嘛再回到第一章一月份的看這個"},{"start":759.452,"end":781.448,"text":"你要跟人民交代為什麼核能一個月可以賺8億多你不要把它丟到水裡面去然後風電一個月損失了56億光電損失了5.8億你要跟人民交代是這個你要解決這兩個問題不是我不知道委員你藍色的左邊這個數字是怎麼去算的從你左邊右邊整理出來的啊沒有沒有那個盈虧沒有這樣算法的啦"},{"start":784.646,"end":794.776,"text":"那你給我一個詳細的數目字好不好我們來對一下不過在怎麼講怎麼對你就是買風電規則是最嚴重嘛比例去看光電也是最嚴重那你一個禮拜內給我你說這個不夠精準你給我一個禮拜我們來對一下好不好我們跟全民交代最重要的資料市長我跟你講最重要"},{"start":806.807,"end":824.357,"text":"上個禮拜這是一個天大的好消息大家都鬆了一口氣人民鬆一口氣產業鬆一口氣那你們責任現在就是趕快去檢討整個能源界過什麼地方出問題再生能源核電對不對檢討好了以後10月份才不用漲電價啊可以降啊"},{"start":825.35,"end":834.858,"text":"一心同意啦好不好一心同意你一個禮拜給我你說這個不會精準一個禮拜給我一個明確的我們來對一下那到時候我們跟前面講到底哪個是比較準的好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":400,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時29分）請賴次長。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，好不容易啊，上個禮拜五電價審議委員會推翻了台電調漲9%的電價方案，我們現在期待的是好好做改革，不只不要再漲了，還可以降。可是老實講我非常擔心，這幾天（從星期五到今天）我看到經濟部發出來的新聞稿都是頭痛在醫腳，我不曉得你們到底是沒有搞清楚真正的狀況還是故意在造謠。","次長，我們就非常具體的來看一下，這是台電1月份的財報，光是今年的1月份台電就虧損了97億，虧損最嚴重的是哪一個？虧損的原因是什麼？你應該去把那個虧損的洞補起來，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：目前我們看到不管是氣的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：你一直在說天然氣！"],["賴次長建信：它的所謂國際價格還是相對在高檔左右啦，所以我們會看到它現在的情況就如委員所展示的……"],["張委員啓楷：有比外購燃煤虧更多的啊，光電虧了5.8億，風電虧了56億，而且它很重要，你知道嗎，這兩個加起來才占你所有發電量的8.5%耶，可是它賠掉你這個月的65%耶，你天然氣買那麼多才賠了15億喔，結果你買光電，特別是風電，占我們所有發電量的8.5%，可是你賠掉了六十幾億，就是你1月份賠的65%……"],["賴次長建信：沒有！"],["張委員啓楷：100塊所賠的錢裡面有65%是風電跟光電耶！"],["賴次長建信：沒有，委員，台電公司一年的支出近兆元啦，它買綠電只有900億元，以去年為例的話，它只占了13%，怎麼可能虧到五、六千億！"],["張委員啓楷：這是不是你們的財報表？來，請看你的財報表……"],["賴次長建信：所以這個……"],["張委員啓楷：台電的財報有騙人嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這就是我說的油跟氣的價格還在相對高檔的這個部分啊！"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，我是問你啦，哪個賠最多嘛！你可以講你的天然氣可能賠了15億，問題是風電賠了56億，光電賠了5.8億，而且它量很少耶！"],["賴次長建信：不是，委員，左邊……"],["張委員啓楷：你的天然氣已經超過50%了，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：左邊那個不是我們的財報，右邊這個才是。我跟委員所說明的，核能占比最高的韓國，它超過了30%，事實上，它的電價漲幅還比我們更高，所以基本上，我們目前6,000億的虧損，為什麼上個禮拜五電價審議委員會要討論這麼久，我們是逐一的來核算，包括委員所指導的部分，事實上，這些虧損不是台電經營不善的主因……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你現在要讓人民的電價不只不要漲，還要降，現在你就要看破洞是破在哪個地方嘛，我已經很清楚跟你講破洞，你現在一看就很清楚嘛，對不對？破洞最大的是哪裡？風電嘛！對不對？第二個就比例來看就是光，就是再生能源啊，這個是可以改的。第一個，你現在開始要賣RE30，對不對？你要多賣一點，第二個，不要買太貴的……"],["賴次長建信：這個是有國際大廠的剛性需求……"],["張委員啓楷：還有一個賺錢的耶，核能賺多少？核能在今年1月份還幫你們賺錢，賺了8億多耶！核一如果重啟，核二、核三也都可以用的話，一年是1,000億耶！你把賺錢的1,000億丟掉，然後你在再生能源這一塊又多花錢，當然就漲價啊！","我再跟你講現在最嚴重的問題，你一直在講天然氣的價格一直漲，事實上去年我第一次質詢王美花部長跟陳建仁院長的時候，他們就已經承認這一點了啊，我們的天然氣價格在2022年跟2023年到達一個高峰，對不對？2023年，也就是兩年前就降下來了，對不對？你看一下這個趨勢圖，請看一下，到2025年，以這個趨勢圖來看，現在的天然氣價格是不是只比2018年、2019年多了一點點？","我再更進一步給你看，請看下一張圖，這是最近這三年天然氣的發電量跟購買金額，你的天然氣越買越多，從111年的3,260億到112年的3,434億，到了今年是3,296億，最嚴重的是右邊，你有沒有發現，它的平均單價已經在降了嘛，結果你一直在對外說我們的天然氣還是很貴，113年有沒有比112年便宜？有沒有降下來？有沒有？"],["賴次長建信：不是，委員，你這個數字並不是我們……"],["張委員啓楷：這都是從你們官網找到的數字……"],["賴次長建信：不是、不是、不是！這個數字並不是我們台電的財務報表或是我們電價審議委員會所討論的部分，事實上……"],["張委員啓楷：不是討論重點，是不是？"],["賴次長建信：不是……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你的意思是……"],["賴次長建信：基本上我們的估價，在2025年的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：電價審議委員會有識之士……當初是我修的法！"],["賴次長建信：這個所謂的……"],["張委員啓楷：我們讓專家跟外部委員多了二分之一，所以這一次他們做了一個非常公平的決定，顧及到不要衝擊到物價、不要衝擊到產業，很好啊，可是你現在誤導啊……"],["賴次長建信：沒有誤導。"],["張委員啓楷：人家已經做了不要漲價，而且要檢討你整個成本，我給你看的是非常具體的。第一個，天然氣的價格在兩年前已經降下來了，這個很清楚吧！113年1度是2.75元，比112年的3.17元便宜很多吧，這是天然氣。第二個，你的再生能源、你的風電跟光電確實買太貴嘛！我也知道你們現在在改進，我今天就是跟你講，RE30你要趕快賣，你用那麼貴的價格買進來，趕快要賣出去，對不對？這個漏洞就會變少。","我們看一下，另外是核電的問題，核一跟核二、核三，一年差不多四百多億度的電嘛，對不對？你現在核電一度的成本一塊多嘛，現在所有的電是三塊多嘛，對不對？每賣一度電大概賺兩塊多啊，四百多億度乘起來就是1,000億耶！","我做個簡單總結，次長，第一個，不要一直在講天然氣成本高漲這個問題，它在前年就降下來了。第二個，你的再生能源，我今天給你看的這個報表，光是1月份的風電跟光電就賠那麼多，占所有總發電量的百分之八點多，結果賠掉了百分之六十幾，這表示有問題啊！","第一個，不要買那麼貴；第二個，買進來以後，不用商店的價格賣出去，讓虧損的距離可以減少；第三個，趕快重啟核電，今天教文委員會已經在審，我們先把法源通過之後，可以重啟核電、延長核電，日本、美國、南韓都在重啟，一直說南韓電價太高，所以它兩年多前，開始在重啟核電啊！讓電價可以降下來，人家全世界都在做，我們臺灣到底是怎樣，全世界只有民進黨政府跟世界潮流在對撞嗎？"],["賴次長建信：並沒有，我請王耀庭總經理再說明一下。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，有很多數字都有問題，您剛剛提很多的問題，包括第一個綠電的部分，目前留在台電手上的躉購大概都是比較早期，因為我們要鼓勵再生能源，所以當時的躉購費率比較高，那部分還留在台電，其他像今年太陽能等便宜的能源幾乎都賣出去了，所以再生能源繼續發展下去，它的成本是會越來越低的，所以風電也是一樣的狀況……"],["張委員啓楷：可是再生能源的價格，到現在還是在往上走，對不對？"],["王總經理耀庭：再生能源的價格大概今年到明年就到頂了，接著下來就是往下……"],["張委員啓楷：到頂都還是很高啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：應該這樣講，發展再生能源是世界各國的趨勢，初期的鼓勵是一定要做的……"],["張委員啓楷：我給大家看一下，總經理你看一下，我們是理性、務實科學的問證，讓數據講話，最近這3年再生能源的價格，110年平均單價是4.75，112年上升到5.20，到了去年是5.46，一直在往上走。"],["王總經理耀庭：所以再生能源……"],["張委員啓楷：當初蔡英文總統跟我們講，買再生能源的電，等量變大以後，價格就會降下來，到現在不只沒降，還是在漲啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：現在已經持續在降了，只是各位也知道整體量的數字是慢慢往下，今年量的價格已經都一直在往下了。"],["張委員啓楷：就是這個價格，我們還會檢視今年到……"],["賴次長建信：2016年到2020年氣價的均價是9元，到目前為止，我們預估是15.4元，基本上還在相對的高檔。跟委員說明，我們經過討論，事實上這2年確實是國際燃料價格的高峰，雖然委員講現在有稍微降下來，是回到這個情況……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！降下來。從1月份看得出來，虧損沒有那麼嚴重。"],["賴次長建信：它跟疫情前的話……"],["張委員啓楷：來，我們做個結論……"],["賴次長建信：它跟疫情前比還是相對高的。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，天然氣在2年前已經降下來了，你說稍微高一點，也沒有造成很嚴重的虧損，跟風電、光電比，現在這個洞是最大的，所以趕快去補這個主要的洞。第二個的洞，就是核電。"],["賴次長建信：不是，現在台電主要的虧損是在111年及112年的能源價格是飛漲的狀況，剛剛委員所舉兩年前的這個狀況跟我們剛剛敘述是不一樣的事情，因為那2年是虧了6,000億耶。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！所以已經撥補了3次3,000億，漲了4次電價，漲了40%耶！"],["賴次長建信：綠電只占43%，怎麼可能用綠電會虧六千多億……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你們用民脂民膏的人民納稅錢，3,000億已經補上去了，漲了4次的電價，這2年該補夠了吧？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們漲的數量比較低……"],["賴次長建信：過去我們實質撥補給台電公司只有500億，其中2,500億是為了投資未來讓台電的電網韌性更好，它是增資了，但是增資不能來抵銷虧損的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：又撥補又漲人民4次的電價，漲了百分之四十幾，這2年還補不過來嗎？"],["賴次長建信：補不過來。"],["張委員啓楷：現在已經回到這個原點了。好，更重要的，現在開源節流，綠電不只不要買那麼貴，趕快賣出去，你的收入就會進來，對不對？我看你的五大改革裡有這一項嘛！要多賣。第二個是核電，今天教文委員會已經在審了，趕快重啟核電。"],["賴次長建信：韓國核能占比比我們高出那麼多，他們的價格成本比我們更高，而且他們撥補的預算曾經比我們現在台電公司500億元更高。"],["張委員啓楷：不只南韓，全世界都……次長，這是common sense，用膝蓋想，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：不是，委員……"],["張委員啓楷：不只南韓、美國，連歐盟現在都在重啟核電嘛！因為它不只穩定，電價是低的，現在既然有虧損，當然是用便宜的電啊！所以才講核電是要重啟的，第二個，買了太貴的再生能源，想辦法要買便宜一點，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：現在所有再生能源……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個趕快賣出去，這個沒有爭議啊！"],["賴次長建信：現在所有再生能源的平均成本慢慢會下降，另外新的綠電的部分是藉由台電公司轉購。"],["張委員啓楷：看到今年1月份都還沒有降，要跟人民交代，為什麼核能一個月可以賺八億多，不要把它丟到水裡面去，然後風電一個月損失了56億，光電損失了5.8億，要跟人民交代跟解決這2個問題。"],["賴次長建信：不是，我不知道委員藍色左邊的這個數字是怎麼去算的？"],["張委員啓楷：從你表格右邊整理出來的。"],["賴次長建信：沒有。"],["王總經理耀庭：盈虧沒有這樣算法的。"],["賴次長建信：這個是不是……"],["張委員啓楷：好，那你給我詳細的數目字，好不好？我們來對一下。"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不管怎麼講怎麼對，買風電虧損是最嚴重，用比例去看，光電也是最嚴重嘛！"],["賴次長建信：不是這樣算出來的。"],["主席：如果不是這樣算，是不是把詳細數目字給張啓楷委員？好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：你說這不夠精準，一個禮拜內給我，我們來對一下，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：好，我們再給委員資料。"],["張委員啓楷：我們跟全民交代，次長，上個禮拜，這是一個天大的好消息，大家都鬆了一口氣，人民鬆一口氣，產業鬆一口氣，現在你們責任是要趕快檢討整個能源結構什麼地方出問題？是再生能源還是核電？對不對？檢討好了以後10月份才不用漲電價，可以降啊！好不好？一起努力。你說這個數字不夠精準，一個禮拜內給我明確的資料，我們來對一下，到時候跟全民講到底哪個是比較準？好不好？"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時43分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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各位列席官員早主席有請今晚會彭主委好彭主委"},{"start":24.065,"end":40.885,"text":"政府推動將台灣打造成亞洲資產管理中心在高雄設立資產管理專區這項計畫體現出我國加強金融市場國際化的決心也更顯示出對於吸引國際資金資本的渴望"},{"start":42.086,"end":58.039,"text":"我國是否能夠創造出與新加坡香港相比更具吸引力的金融中心我存在著一些疑慮那尤其是在我上次有向你提到的地緣政治風險法規環境等相較於這些金融中心的一個競爭"},{"start":59.622,"end":85.896,"text":"劣勢那主要面臨必須要解決的問題那否則實在難以吸引這些大型的金融企業來進駐台灣那我國作為亞洲的重要金融市場之一那尤其是現在川普上台又讓整個國際局勢增添了更多的不確定性那因此我在這邊還是要請教主委今晚會如何進一步穩定台灣資本市場"},{"start":86.636,"end":107.771,"text":"尤其是在與新加坡香港等競爭對手相比時台灣有足夠的措施來吸引並保護外資尤其是長期資本的流入請主委說明所以我想委員剛剛提到的就是比如說我們在發展亞洲資產觀念中心所面對到的既有的這些的挑戰"},{"start":109.127,"end":130.872,"text":"我想確實有些國家它沒有這樣的問題所以它當然在發展起來是比較容易的所以我們在要解決這個問題的時候我剛剛也提到我們其實每個地方都有它的優勢跟劣勢我們就是強化我們的優勢來淡化我們的劣勢那我們想辦法去解決這個問題"},{"start":133.012,"end":157.009,"text":"至少把它淡化比如說我們剛才講我們推這個高雄專區主要著重於在境外的客戶的吸引境外的客戶呢我們透過OBU的概念它暫時還是在境外但是是由國人的團隊來管理我想這是一個我們第一步可以來做這件事情要擴大優勢嘛對不對對對對擴大我們優勢再來就是適時的導引回來投資我們台灣在全球具有競爭力的產業"},{"start":158.57,"end":183.568,"text":"我想比如說我們跟新加坡比 新加坡當然是一個金融中心他強調是金流的轉動但是台灣除了這個可能沒有辦法完全跟他做一個競爭但是我們有很多產業投資的機會我們也是吸引就像我們現在的所以你剛剛提到是引資的部分那流財的部分像台積電宣布要赴美投資再投資一千億美金總共加總是一千六百五十億美金"},{"start":184.389,"end":200.107,"text":"那這一舉動引發了許多台灣這個如何有效留下財富還是你剛剛提到的引資的部分吸引更多外資回流的部分那台灣作為半導體的一個領頭羊那面臨的大量資金流向其他國家"},{"start":200.868,"end":226.818,"text":"使得我們的資本市場的一個競爭力相對的受到挑戰那這樣子要怎麼樣去做一個應對是跟委員做個說明就是說其實剛才講了我們的引資或流財跟我們的產業在海外的投資這是兩個比較不是那麼完全一致的關係我們歷史說剛才講台灣很多的財富它本質現在很多是"},{"start":227.458,"end":247.893,"text":"逐年在過去累積流落在海外有海外的團隊在做管理我們是希望說這些能夠盡量的交由國內的團隊來管理甚至回來投資台灣那產業他為了他自己不管是追隨客戶或者說他產業的擴張他去做一個資本的投資我想這兩個事情不會有衝突的地方"},{"start":249.181,"end":270.309,"text":"其實我們很顯然我們現在要做引資但是我們看到我們台灣大型的產業陸續的出走未來還會有更多相關半導體高科技產業也一樣都會到美國這個市場那我想剛剛你在高雄設立這個金融專區這有一定的政策亮點但是"},{"start":271.129,"end":288.494,"text":"要真正的成功還需要更多的誘因政策嘛是對不對比如說國際稅賦條件商品發展還有金融創新要如何與新加坡香港等地區競爭那流財比引資更重要因為我們現在看不到我們現在引資的部分那個是期待性是未來性"},{"start":289.054,"end":305.636,"text":"但是我們看到的是我們大型的這些這些企業往美國出走那這部分是我們非常擔憂的尤其台積電開想了赴美投資的第一槍後續會有更多的高科技半導體都會相同的一樣都到美國去那"},{"start":307.008,"end":326.091,"text":"我想要更何況是引資企業往往都一定會選擇比在自身有一個良好的一個獲利環境他才會留下來所以我想就是說企業跟資金會陸續出走這是這一波我們也很明顯的看得到那今晚會如何看待"},{"start":327.032,"end":350.1,"text":"這些高科技產業赴美投資的景象那台灣如何進一步完善政策吸引並且留住這些高資產客戶的資金是 謝謝委員我想剛剛委員也提到其實我想台積電的魏董事長在很多場合也提過他這個東西不影響對台灣的投資我想這個這不是金管會主政我們剛剛跟委員"},{"start":350.74,"end":367.719,"text":"我們提過就是我們希望能夠吸引國外的資金除了交由我們團隊來管理更希望他能夠回來投資台灣的產業我想這部分就是要平衡這樣的一個概念就是說很多的資金本來就在海外我想我們希望說能夠透過一些政策的放寬"},{"start":368.84,"end":385.681,"text":"也謝謝委員剛剛的提醒就是說這是我們高雄專區我們也盤點了一下總共單單銀行我們就是放寬了20項新業務那其他比如說保險、投信、投顧加起來也大概超過30幾項的新業務這個就是希望說剛剛講那個誘因怎麼讓我們這些"},{"start":388.604,"end":405.437,"text":"這些資金能夠透過我們這個放寬能夠考慮回來台灣交給我們的團隊或甚至投資台灣我想這就是我們來努力的剛剛很多的困境我們都知道但是不能因為有這個困境我們就不做所以我們就希望說對盡量來做主委反正流財比引資更重要啦"},{"start":405.857,"end":422.485,"text":"都很重要但是流財會更可行如果你沒有把這些大型的企業主流在台灣讓他們相繼出走那未來台灣會是什麼樣的一個景象剛剛講說他這個其實不是當我不是產業專家我想他們是因為整個海外的擴張"},{"start":424.284,"end":437.207,"text":"在稅制 資金流動 還有金融創新方面要如何吸引這些高資產的客戶這部分金管會你要做一個非常仔細的調整金管會發布這個函映說"},{"start":443.209,"end":458.506,"text":"准許多重資金組合型這兩大類的基金可投資海外比特幣以該基金淨值5%為上限等於說一般投資人可透過這兩類的基金投資海外比特幣主委這部分簡單說明一下"},{"start":460.167,"end":487.728,"text":"這個其實我們在去年的時候呢就已經因為美國的ETF資產已經有有所謂的虛擬資產的ETF比特幣的ETF我們已經開放專業投資人去投資啦所以這部分我們現在還沒有開放一般人所以他必須透過這樣一個專業機構去做投資當然透過我們這行列的放寬一般人可以少量的透過這東西間接的去投資不過中間有經過專業機構的把關我想大概是我們現階段的政策大概是這樣"},{"start":488.829,"end":511.98,"text":"那我們上次也說我們會根據這個情況的這個執行的情形再來評估是否下一步我們是要再做持續觀察還是再做放寬這個風險控管一定要做好當然當然風險控管要做好雖然我們也樂見說不再沒守成規但是風險一定要控管好謝謝主委是謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時25分）主席、各位列席官員早。主席，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：好，彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。政府推動將臺灣打造成亞洲資產管理中心，在高雄設立資產管理專區，這項計畫體現出我國加強金融市場國際化的決心，也更顯示出對於吸引國際資金、資本的渴望。我國是否能夠創造出與新加坡、香港相比更具吸引力的金融中心，我存在一些疑慮，尤其是我上次有向你提到的地緣政治風險、法規環境等相較於這些金融中心的一個競爭劣勢，主要面臨必須要解決的問題，否則實在難以吸引這些大型的金融企業來進駐臺灣。","我國作為亞洲的重要金融市場之一，尤其是現在川普上臺，又讓整個國際局勢增添了更多的不確定性，因此，我在這邊還是要請教主委，金管會如何進一步穩定臺灣資本市場，尤其是在與新加坡、香港等競爭對手相比時，臺灣有足夠的措施來吸引並保護外資，尤其是長期資本的流入？請主委說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員剛剛提到的就是，比如說我們在發展亞洲資產管理中心所面對到既有的這些挑戰，我想確實有些國家沒有這樣的問題，當然發展起來是比較容易的，所以我們要解決這個問題的時候，我剛剛也提到，其實每個地方都有其優勢跟劣勢，我們就是強化我們的優勢來淡化劣勢，想辦法去解決這個問題，至少把它淡化。比如說我們剛剛講了，推高雄專區主要著重在境外客戶的吸引，而境外的客戶，我們透過OBU的概念，他暫時還是在境外，但是是由國人的團隊來管理，我想我們第一步可以來做這件事情。"],["顏委員寬恒：要擴大優勢，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對，擴大我們的優勢。再來就是適時的導引回來投資我們臺灣在全球具有競爭力的產業，比如說我們跟新加坡比，新加坡當然是一個金融中心，它強調的是金流的轉動，臺灣除了這個可能沒有辦法完全跟它做一個競爭，但是我們有很多產業投資的機會，我們也吸引……"],["顏委員寬恒：主委，你剛剛提到的是引資的部分嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：而留財的部分，像台積電宣布要赴美投資，再投資1,000億美金，總共加總是1,650億美金，這一舉動引發了許多臺灣如何有效留下財富的議題。你剛剛提到的引資的部分，吸引更多外資回流的部分，臺灣作為半導體的領頭羊，面臨大量資金流向其他國家，使得我們資本市場的競爭力相對受到挑戰，這樣要如何去做一個應對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員做個說明，其實剛才講了，我們的引資或留財跟我們的產業在海外的投資，這是兩個比較不是那麼完全一致的關係。我們的意思是說，剛才講臺灣很多的財富，在本質上，現在很多是過去累積流落在海外，由海外的團隊在做管理，我們是希望這些能夠儘量交由國內的團隊來管理，甚至回來投資臺灣。產業為了它自己，不管是追隨客戶或者產業的擴張，它去做一個資本的投資，我想這兩個事情不會有衝突的地方。"],["顏委員寬恒：其實很顯然的，我們現在要做引資，但是我們看到我們臺灣大型的產業陸續出走，未來還會有更多相關半導體、高科技產業，也一樣都會到美國這個市場，我想你在高雄設立金融專區，這有一定的政策亮點，但是要真正的成功還需要更多的誘因政策，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：比如說國際稅負條件、商品發展還有金融創新，要如何與新加坡、香港等地區競爭？留財比引資更重要，因為我們現在看不到，現在引資的部分，是期待性、是未來性，但是我們看到的是我們的大型企業往美國出走，這部分是我們非常擔憂的，尤其台積電開了赴美投資的第一槍，後續會有更多的高科技、半導體都會到美國去。更何況是引資，企業往往都一定會選擇對自身良好的獲利環境，才會留下來，這一波我們也很明顯的看得到企業跟資金會陸續出走，那金管會如何看待這些高科技產業赴美投資的景象？臺灣如何進一步完善政策，吸引並且留住這些高資產客戶的資金？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員，剛剛委員也提到，台積電的魏董事長在很多場合也提過，這部分不影響對臺灣的投資，但這不是金管會主政。剛剛跟委員提過，我們希望能夠吸引國外的資金，除了交由我們團隊來管理，更希望它能夠回來投資臺灣的產業，這部分就是要平衡這樣的概念，就是很多資金本來就在海外，我們是希望能夠透過一些政策的放寬，剛才也謝謝委員提醒，這次高雄專區，我們也盤點了一下，單單銀行我們就放寬了20項新業務，其他比如保險、投信、投顧，加起來也大概超過三十幾項的新業務，就是希望如剛剛講的提高誘因，讓這些資金透過我們的放寬考慮回來臺灣，交給我們的團隊或甚至投資臺灣，我想這就是我們要來努力的。有很多的困境我們都知道，但是不能因為有這個困境，我們就不做，所以我們就希望儘量來做……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，主委，反正留財比引資更重要啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：都很重要，但是現階段留財會更可行。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果你沒有把這些大型的企業主留在臺灣，讓他們相繼出走，那未來臺灣會是什麼樣的景象？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不，剛剛講這個其實不是……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，沒關係。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我不是產業專家，我想他們是因為整個海外的擴張。"],["顏委員寬恒：在稅制、資金流動還有金融創新方面，要如何吸引這些高資產的客戶，金管會要非常仔細的來做一個調整。金管會發布函令，准許多重資金、組合型這兩大類的基金投資海外比特幣，以該基金淨值5%為上限，等於一般投資人可透過這兩類的基金投資海外比特幣，請主委就這部分簡單說明一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們在去年的時候，因為美國的ETF資產已經有所謂的虛擬資產的ETF、比特幣的ETF，所以我們已經開放專業投資人去投資，但這部分我們現在還沒有開放一般人，所以他必須透過專業機構去投資。當然透過我們這函令的放寬，一般人可以少量的透過這東西間接的去投資，不過中間有經過專業機構的把關，我們現階段的政策大概是這樣。我們上次也說會根據執行的情形再來評估下一步是要持續觀察，還是再做放寬。"],["顏委員寬恒：這個風險控管一定要做好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：風險控管要做好，雖然我們也樂見不再墨守成規，但是風險一定要控管，好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們先休息10分鐘。","休息（10時33分）","繼續開會（10時45分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接著請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接著請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e51f5d7f5f87fa1cc3ab992d8b3314b746782ddb04f65b48d297110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:17:12 - 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次長"},{"start":14.978,"end":42.105,"text":"委員好市長好台灣極端氣候日益的嚴峻不管是颱風、豪暴雨這一些的洪患或者是乾旱那麼用水的問題可以說是憨老病悲狀況是越來越多在這樣的情況之下我們水資源管理當然是重中之重那淹水的方面本席也肯定政府有所作為"},{"start":42.845,"end":50.627,"text":"包括我們台中市面對這個強大的這個強降雨淹水的面積我們是減少尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示113年7月份的凱米颱風那24小時之內累計的這個降雨量是近期颱風或者好暴雨它是最高的但是它的總淹的面積是比107年8月23號的"},{"start":72.311,"end":89.942,"text":"這個豪暴雨它是大幅的一個減少不過在國科會跟環境部也提出報告未來平均退估降雨增加會有約15%那降雨的變化弧度也隨著全球的一個暖化"},{"start":90.802,"end":115.542,"text":"而日益的來增加那以後不管是乾季乾季可能是在1月到4月份的時候它會越乾那5月到10月份它會越濕在這樣的一個情況之下也表示極端的一日暴雨強降雨它會日劇的嚴峻而且會增強那當然台中市目前的治理我們也努力做得不錯"},{"start":116.323,"end":143.902,"text":"等于是月亮大但是我们淹水的面积呢跟中央一样也是这个面积是有缩小的但是本席要在这边讲113年的凯米台风为例虽然我们各项的工程都有发挥了这个效能出来但是我们看到这些极端的暴雨会造成中南部跟易淹水地区那您是专家您是专家请教"},{"start":144.542,"end":160.923,"text":"对于未来发展经济部对于这个一烟水地区的防洪计划你的具体措施跟你的目标那如何的能够因应自己以台中市为例要怎么样来协助具体的方案请做说明"},{"start":161.38,"end":176.54,"text":"而且我也知道根據我們過去的努力我們淹水的面積台中市是有改善的所以我們具體的做法所以我們會再盤點整個台中市一淹水的地區可能不做十年前了"},{"start":177,"end":203.526,"text":"可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方所以基本上我們的治理除了工程面用系統性的治理之外法規面也要精進所謂法規面是新開發的區域我們希望不要造成雨林為禍的狀況所以要求開發商他要多增加滯洪跟除流在自己的基地裡面自己基地產生的水自己基地來溶"},{"start":204.406,"end":230.003,"text":"這一點我們當時抗旱的時候我們連建築工地的湖流水我們都把它吸出來這個是太感動了這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛才能夠這麼做所以剛剛市長您說的在法規面以及具體的工程方面我們滾動式的去檢討還有另外非常重要我也一直在說明包括各位委員都重視了清書啊"},{"start":230.882,"end":253.279,"text":"但現在離汛水要來差不多一個多月時間嘛所以把這個所謂的下水道啊包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏是一個很有用的一個做法所以你也把以台中市為例我們現在做得不錯中央地方合作但是我們也要超前部署因應強教育以及"},{"start":253.899,"end":256.74,"text":"這個軟化的問題有精進的方案請給本席接下來我們來討論抗旱的這個部分因為抗旱跟水資源的管理市長在國科會智庫DSET當中的他發布了半導體產業水電"},{"start":271.704,"end":280.729,"text":"的需求報告那麼他也提出了這個乾旱的恐怕讓先程製水來缺水那例如台積電的先進製程他大概每日的用水就要10萬到15萬公噸10萬到15萬公噸相當是一個中型城市的每日用水"},{"start":290.715,"end":316.29,"text":"但是DSET裡頭提出水利署的2036年規劃的目標裡頭沒有將台積電以及其他相當的廠商的擴廠需求納入在你的評估所以優先我們的水資源這個提供是不確定性市長你之前也有所回應針對於整個產業用水是不是有預留這個評估請做說明"},{"start":318.671,"end":339.257,"text":"絕對有包括台中市我們現在積極的發展我們現在做的珍珠串裡面包括大安大甲的聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了那這個部分進度是超前的那它產生也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二我們知道台中的水源第一個來自大"},{"start":340.138,"end":355.697,"text":"大安溪第二個來自大甲溪這兩個水源運用起來就可以了那另外產業的需要的用水我們一再的強調他不要去排擠到現在的用水人的用水量所以我們會要求他多使用再生水"},{"start":356.698,"end":377.93,"text":"然後多使用他自己廠區裡面重複利用的這個水量所以換句話說也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量而且運用多元的方式我們一定要積極努力這麼做來協助所有需要用水的人這個是非常的重要"},{"start":378.47,"end":400.083,"text":"那麼遇到那個旱災的時候我們常常提取也就是各大水庫的這個預計嚴重那我們也在清淤目前的清淤狀況進度如何而且我們的執行計畫如何進行 請做說明我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高"},{"start":400.936,"end":420.417,"text":"那我們會超過一年超過1800萬立方公尺的這個氫餘量對 因為尤其在旱的時候是最好清的我們必須要加強這個力道那這個當然這幾年我們也清的還不錯我們也希望精進再精進一起來加油"},{"start":421.018,"end":425.381,"text":"接下來我要跟你討論的是我們的電價的問題因為禮拜五也宣布了那本期要跟你討論的也就是說能源政策錯誤到底什麼時候才要面對因為我們考量了國際關稅的一個變化跟整個地緣政治的一個風險所以當然這是你們說的決議四月份而且聽到了民意電價不漲而且要經濟部"},{"start":450.256,"end":468.164,"text":"全力的來爭取撥補的這個事宜但是次長公堂撥補也是人民的血汗錢在向人民伸手要錢之前我們政府應該要好好的去面對去解決能源政策錯誤的問題說清楚台電何時能夠止損否則撥補再撥補到底什麼時候才有盡頭 請做說明"},{"start":476.457,"end":482.244,"text":"首先跟委員說明台電目前累積4200億的虧損主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲"},{"start":490.007,"end":510.024,"text":"這是第一點 第二點比如說外界常常會去指教的是因為我們不用核電 我們說核電延益了事實上以國際核能能源佔比相當多的我們鄰近的國家 韓國為例他們的電價還比我們高 他們虧損也是比我們多你這麼說法 我必須要跟你來討論重點"},{"start":514.568,"end":516.709,"text":"你們一再說韓國的電價是如何但是我們真正要討論的是你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元你買了高貴的綠電那同時到底我們囤購的"},{"start":531.994,"end":540.879,"text":"這個價格會不會降我們購電綠電的量會不會降這是要針對於能源配比真正的解決問題因為在台電的部分光光一月份他們的財務報表說出是121億的虧損我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊如果沒有真正的解決這些問題那麼撥補再撥補漲價再漲價"},{"start":559.568,"end":567.111,"text":"要讓人民成為提款機這是人民沒有辦法接受的所以我還是要請市長針對於台電的財務我們必須要真正的去討論我們的電來源到底要怎麼做 核電會不會續用會不會續用 請教市長"},{"start":579.566,"end":596.186,"text":"首先核電的部分第一個核能安全要兼顧核廢料要能處理社會要有共識基本上這三個原則來處理一下我們面對新的核能的技術我們政府始終保持開放的態度好 這一句開放"},{"start":597.708,"end":625.16,"text":"你開放的態度非常好所以現在在立法院環境基本法以及現在在教育委員會的核寬法正在審議在這樣的情況之下請問行政院你經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來因為現在都是朝野立委的一個法案行政院會不會送來會不會送 有沒有這個計畫 請教"},{"start":626.681,"end":646.998,"text":"我們現在對於電的這個使用我們依法行政啦 目前設施管制辦法 基本上那個是原農會所主管的請教那是原農會所主管的行政院會不會送來啊 因為行政院告訴我們是如此開放的態度經濟部也告訴我們開放的態度 那請問行政院會不會送來"},{"start":648.244,"end":671.69,"text":"他是在討論核能設施管理辦法他是研議的部分嘛 環境基本法也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛所以這個跟你經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點所以我們也希望我們也希望不要把人民當提款機我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞由政府真正的來解決問題因為我們要問一句話到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲價漲電價"},{"start":678.064,"end":695.493,"text":"我跟委員說明 即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算的話以2023的國際燃油的價格 我們的平均的成本也超過4塊比現在的台電所提出來的這個成本還高於"},{"start":696.033,"end":702.479,"text":"市長這個方案如果不改台電已經提出2026年到2027年他沒有辦法自負盈虧啦所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源你永遠沒有辦法解決他的虧損啦這是我們今天討論的重點提供給你參考我們希望一起好好的協助台電能夠將他的能源配比"},{"start":721.676,"end":732.301,"text":"能夠好好的真正的完整性的來討論才不會每一年的撥補 每一年的漲價加油是 謝謝 大家用我們一起努力 謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":359,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時17分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請次長。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好。臺灣極端氣候問題日益嚴峻，不管是颱風、豪暴雨等這些洪患或者是乾旱，用水的問題可以說是旱澇並備，狀況是越來越多，在這樣的情況之下，我們的水資源管理當然是重中之重。","在淹水方面，本席也肯定政府有所作為，包括我們臺中市，面對強大的強降雨，淹水的面積是有減少，尤其根據經濟部的資料顯示，113年7月份的凱米颱風，24小時之內累計的降雨量是近期颱風或者豪暴雨中最高的，但是它的總淹水面積卻比107年8月23號的豪暴雨大幅減少。不過國科會跟環境部也提出報告，推估未來平均降雨會增加約15%，降雨的變化幅度也隨著全球的暖化而日益增加，以後是乾季（乾季可能是在1月到4月份）會越乾，5月到10月份會越溼，在這樣的一個情況之下，也表示極端的一日暴雨、強降雨會日趨嚴峻，而且會增強。","當然，以臺中市目前的治理來說，我們也努力做得不錯，雖然降雨量增大，但是我們淹水的面積跟中央一樣，也是有縮小的。但是本席要在這邊講的是，以113年的凱米颱風為例，雖然我們各項的工程都有發揮了效能出來，但是我們看到這些極端的暴雨會造成中南部易淹水地區成災，您是專家，請教未來經濟部對於易淹水地區的防洪計畫的具體措施跟目標，以及如何能夠因地制宜，以臺中市為例，要怎麼樣來協助？具體的方案請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員的指導，根據我們過去的努力，以淹水的面積來看，臺中市是有改善的，所以我們具體的作法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這是中央、地方合作成功，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：所以我們會再盤點整個臺中市易淹水的地區，可能不若10年前了，可能會在別的地方或是新開發出來的地方，所以基本上我們除了在工程面用系統性的方式來治理之外，法規面也要精進，所謂法規面是新開發的區域，我們希望不要造成以鄰為壑的狀況，所以要求開發商要多增加滯洪跟貯留在自己的基地裡面，自己基地產生的水自己基地來容，不要造成別人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一點，我們當時在抗旱的時候是連建築工地的伏流水都把它吸出來，這個是太感動了，這也就是中央跟地方一起團結嘛，才能夠這麼做。所以剛剛次長所說的，在法規面以及具體的工程方面，我們滾動式的去檢討。"],["賴次長建信：還有另外非常重要的，委員也一直有提到、各位委員也都很重視的清疏，我們現在離汛期要來差不多有一個月的時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：超前部署嘛！"],["賴次長建信：所以把所有的下水道，包括我們的雨水下水道做清疏，是一個很有用的作法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，以臺中市為例，我們現在做得不錯，中央跟地方合作，但是我們也要超前部署，因應強降雨以及暖化的問題，有精進的方案請給本席。","接下來我們來討論抗旱的部分，有關抗旱跟水資源的管理，次長，國科會智庫DSET發布了半導體產業水電使用需求報告，報告指出乾旱恐怕會讓先進製程缺水，例如台積電的先進製程工廠每日總用水量就要10萬至15萬公噸，相當於一個中型城市的每日用水量，但是DSET的報告中提出，水利署的2036年規劃目標裡面並沒有將台積電以及其他相當廠商的擴廠需求納入評估，所以憂心我們水資源的提供是有不確定性。次長，你之前也有所回應，針對整個產業用水，你們是不是有預留量的評估？請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：絕對有，包括臺中市，我們現在積極的發展，我們現在做的珍珠串計畫裡面，包括大安、大甲溪聯合運用計畫在明年就可以完成了，這個部分進度是超前的，它也可以讓兩個水庫產生一加一大於二的效益，我們知道臺中的水源第一個來自大安溪，第二個來自大甲溪，這兩個水源運用起來就可以了。","另外，產業所需要的用水，我們一再的強調，不要去排擠到現在用水人的用水量，所以我們會要求它多使用再生水，多使用它自己廠區裡面重複利用的水量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，也就是我們一定要預留這個評估量，而且運用多元的方式……"],["賴次長建信：這個有，這個報告已經有了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多元的方式，我們一定要積極努力這麼做，來協助所有需要用水的人，這個是非常的重要。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以往遇到旱災的時候，我們常常提到各大水庫的淤積嚴重，我們也在清淤，目前的清淤狀況及進度如何？我們的執行計畫要如何精進？請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：我們這幾年的水庫清淤是每年都創新高，一年會有超過1,800萬立方公尺的清淤量，但是基本上……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，尤其在旱的時候是最好清的，我們必須要加強這個力道。當然，這幾年我們也清得還不錯，我們也希望精進再精進，一起來加油。"],["賴次長建信：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我要跟你討論有關電價的問題，因為禮拜五已經宣布了，本席要跟你討論的就是，能源政策錯誤的問題，到底什麼時候才要面對？因為我們考量到國際關稅的變化跟整個地緣政治的風險，當然，這是你們說的，而且也聽到了民意，所以決議4月份電價不漲，而且要經濟部全力的來爭取撥補的事宜，但是次長，公帑撥補也是使用人民的血汗錢，在向人民伸手要錢之前，我們政府應該要好好的去面對、去解決能源政策錯誤的問題，說清楚台電何時能夠止損，否則撥補再撥補，到底什麼時候才能有盡頭？請做說明。"],["賴次長建信：首先跟委員說明，台電目前累積4,200億的虧損，主要是來自於民國111年跟112年國際燃料價格的大漲，這是第一點。第二點，外界常常會指教的是，因為我們不用核電，希望我們的核電延役。事實上，以國際能源上核能占比相當多的國家、我們鄰近的國家──韓國為例，他們的電價還比我們高，他們的虧損也是比我們多，但是他們的國家有補貼他們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，對於你這個說法，我必須要跟你來討論重點，你們一再說韓國的電價是如何，但是我們真正要討論的是，你廢掉了核電最便宜的1.42元，你買了高貴的綠電，同時，到底我們的躉購價格會不會降？我們購買綠電的量會不會降？這是要針對能源配比真正要的解決問題。因為在台電的部分，光是1月份，他們的財務報表顯示是121億的虧損，我們不希望台電成為財務的黑洞啊！如果沒有真正的解決這些問題，那麼撥補再撥補、漲價再漲價，要讓人民成為提款機，這是人民沒有辦法接受的！所以我還是要請次長，對於台電的財務，我們必須要真正的去討論，我們的電來源到底要怎麼做？核電會不會續用？會不會續用？"],["賴次長建信：首先，有關核電的部分，必須是核能安全要兼顧、核廢料要能處理以及社會要有共識，基本上在這三個原則下，面對新的核能技術，我們政府始終保持開放的態度，但是跟委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這句「開放的態度」非常好，所以現在立法院的環境基本法以及在教育委員會的核管法都正在審議，在這樣的情況之下，請問行政院、經濟部會不會送法案到立法院來？因為現在都是朝野立委的法案，行政院會不會送來？會不會送？有沒有這個計畫？"],["賴次長建信：我們現在對於電的使用是依法行政，目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會送？"],["賴次長建信：核能設施管制辦法基本上是原能會所主管的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然，行政院會不會送來啊？因為行政院告訴我們是採取開放的態度，經濟部也告訴我們保持開放的態度，那請問行政院會不會送來？會不會送來？"],["賴次長建信：他是在討論核能設施管理辦法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是延役的部分嘛，環境基本法部分也就是到底我們核能要不要用嘛，所以這個跟經濟部絕對有最重要的關鍵點，我們也希望不要把人民當提款機，我們也不希望台電成為財務黑洞，由政府真正的來解決問題，我們想要問一句話，到底什麼時候才不會給我們人民漲電價？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，即便我們用2016年以前的能源結構來試算，以2023年的國際燃油的價格，我們的平均成本也超過4塊，比現在台電所提出來的這個成本還高，國際能源使用核能最多的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，這個方案如果不改，台電已經提出2026年到2027年就沒有辦法自負盈虧了啦，所以你如果沒有真正解決台電能源的來源，也就永遠沒有辦法解決它的虧損啦！這是我們今天討論的重點，提供給你參考，我們希望一起協助台電將它的能源配比能夠好好的、真正的、完整性的來討論，才不會每一年撥補但每一年漲價。加油！"],["賴次長建信：是，謝謝，電是大家用，我們一起努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","在張啓楷委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘，現在請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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處長我們延續剛剛陳一貞委員特別就是說在上個會期我們有到金門去那我們希望那個延逸就是兩岸金融市行區這個是那個陳一貞委員他提出來的你對這一個提案有沒有印象"},{"start":41.482,"end":59.561,"text":"不好意思因為這個部分不是我的處在夜館所以委員的那個意見我們會帶回去延期好 帶回去就是請他就是揮彈標再對準我們這樣子可行性就大了他不會金門不會是那個開曼群島"},{"start":61.403,"end":75.633,"text":"跟那個陳一貞委員要記得跟他報告我想處長這個今天派你來就是應該你對台灣的金融市場的一個規模跟發展有相當的一個研究所以你你代表國發會來那我們"},{"start":78.195,"end":99.832,"text":"如何因應全球的經濟的一個變局那在4月2號川普他會提出他的一個關稅關稅的一個測試那個就是設施的一個報告那台灣跟美國的對等關係這個制度的課稅的公式的一個推估我們覺得有幾種變數一種就是說不變"},{"start":100.953,"end":116.986,"text":"那一種就是說維持現狀不變一種就是說台灣的進口關稅的稅率他可能會做很大的一個調整那如果僅是就是說這個關稅如果對等美國的2.5%你看在這一個裡頭"},{"start":118.727,"end":126.437,"text":"我們會看到了就是很多的一個就是可能會做了很多的一個那個應變那你認為台灣這個影響台灣今年的經濟是會變好還是變壞"},{"start":133.292,"end":150.65,"text":"我想這個可能要是這個川普總統他的最後的關稅政策以及他跟我們競爭對手國他相對的關係那我們其實行政院已經國會會有沒有研擬一套方式就是變好變壞都有各有一套是不是"},{"start":151.31,"end":171.672,"text":"在行政院有成立一個台美經貿的專案小組那會變好還是變壞?就是院會成立一個專案小組會針對所有可能的情況做砂盤的推研已經成立了嗎?有,在副院長那大概是會變好變壞?這個要看實際的方案跟我們的因應的"},{"start":171.912,"end":183.677,"text":"所以到現在也沒有辦法知道就是說他會變好還是變壞是 我們會研擬最妥適的對策所以說川普用關稅向全球的貿易先戰那帶來的會是通膨還是停滯性的通膨的一個隱憂現在也還不確定"},{"start":190.62,"end":207.813,"text":"那我覺得就是說要請教你如果接著下來要維持今年的經濟成長的重點那有幾個方向除了就是對外的經貿談判國會會不會就是說規劃任何的一個關稅那可以保三啊"},{"start":209.445,"end":233.994,"text":"就目前我們看國內外經濟機構對台灣的預測都是大概說是在三以上它也是像是SMP Global Insight它在最新的預測它甚至還有上修台灣的經濟資本預測其實我們為了要讓經濟保三其實中央政府應該要有更多的一個作為啦可惜今天的總預算還卡住了跟晚年相比的話甚至大虎的一個刪減跟凍結"},{"start":236.095,"end":242.382,"text":"所以就是說這個對一個預算的一個推動還有政策的一個推動會不會受到影響呢"},{"start":243.63,"end":266.824,"text":"我們會努力把相關衝擊降到最低好 會把它降到最低啦是處長你看這兩個計畫就是大投資台灣計畫跟兆元投資發展國家那個發展的一個方向的這兩個計畫你認為他們兩個的一個那個互相的關係在哪裡對 這些都是要引導國內外資金投資台灣來加強台灣的競爭力"},{"start":269.696,"end":288.425,"text":"所以這個都是非常重要的好 謝謝今晚為主委 處長你請回怎麼樣因應全球的經濟上的一個變局台股受到了美股的一個聯動的影響非常大那就是說 主委你看國安基金這幾天會不會準備那個進場"},{"start":290.527,"end":307.566,"text":"報告委員國安基金的話是由財政部主政我們關注的是市場整個有沒有非理性因素的影響還有就是整個市場我們相對的穩定度來看是相對的穩定所以國安基金還不會急著進場"},{"start":309.087,"end":320.891,"text":"這個由國安基金來判斷那是由財政部主政的範圍那整個市場市場的你的那個就是處在一個觀望的一個程度你認為就是說這個國安基金會不會進場我們還是在觀望"},{"start":323.232,"end":343.684,"text":"那個他們據我所知他們有一套自己的運作的模式還有一些他們的那個判斷的準據那我們所關切的就像比如說會不會整個市場因為過度的比如說非理性因素那我們是不是應該採取相對應的作為我想這部分其實這部分那你有沒有現在有沒有採取相對應的那個"},{"start":344.605,"end":359.818,"text":"其實這是我們在整個資本市場管理上面在監督管理上的例行性的業務我想不管是我們兩個交易市場還有就是我們相關的一些指標還是我們都隨時都在監看中"},{"start":361.94,"end":375.761,"text":"主委你提出來的造圓投資國家發展的方案最重要就是說你希望加強把民間的資金引到我們的所有的一個公共建設裡頭那其中這個三大策略裡頭"},{"start":376.963,"end":404.554,"text":"第二點跟第三點都是跟金管會息息相關這個也是說你念之再之最擔心的就是說資金的來源從哪邊來如何擴大營用資金這個最關鍵的問題就是說資金從哪裡來尤其現在美元走強的一個趨勢下政府要怎麼樣吸引更多的資金回到台灣那金管會會同經濟部的研擬就是說投資台灣的一個三大方案"},{"start":406.074,"end":422.739,"text":"這個發揮的一個效果到哪裡咧我想最重要的是剛才文提到沒有錯就是兆元投資計畫主要是他有兩個方向第一個創造標的引入資金我想這裡面大家對期待很深的就是金融業的資金特別是保險業"},{"start":423.679,"end":447.53,"text":"那剛剛提到我們第一個呢應該要透過跨部會的努力創造出適合的標的 公建的標的那這個也是我們剛才講亞洲資產關係中心的其中一部分因為這個標的可以由金融業來投資也可以由全面來投資也可以吸引外資來投資所以這部分我們正在努力就是怎麼樣創造出這個標的所以說OIU的延長10年其實它的正當性就非常強了"},{"start":449.331,"end":475.152,"text":"OIU本來就是它過去就一直存在只是因為我們過去租稅的這個法制上面它有一定的期間我們到了以後覺得政策還是需要延續我們就讓它持續的延長10年那這是我們在推動整個比如說在海外財富管理或資產管理的一環剛剛講我們兆元投資是說希望國內有更多的把這個弓箭能夠變成是一個可投資的標的來吸引國內外的資金"},{"start":475.512,"end":489.828,"text":"好 主委那你現在就是說我們都知道台灣的金融業有上百兆的一個資產那你要怎麼樣引進資金你現在現階段面臨到最大的一個困難是什麼最大的一個困難"},{"start":490.469,"end":519.154,"text":"當然我想就是主要是標的問題啦因為像比如說這個比如說就以保險為例保險的他所收的保費都有答應客戶一定的這樣那個那個負債的一些的報酬率他必須要找到一個滿足他成本需要的標的所以這部分呢我們也持續的努力在國內能不能創造出更多的標的留住我們的資金來投資我們台灣的這些產業或是工業"},{"start":520.094,"end":549.224,"text":"好 主委那我們再回到亞洲資產管理中心央行講的就是說亞洲資產管理中心其實不缺資金那唯有就是說要成為這個亞洲資產管理中心我們希望就是有這一個生態這個生態圈這個生態圈其實是非常重要的我們希望留住這個人才那這個財產我們也希望就是資金我們也希望把它留下來那我希望儘管會在一個月內你提出書面的一個回覆"},{"start":550.264,"end":570.103,"text":"那給我那接著再跟這個主委來做一個探討就是說新加坡跟台灣如何就是成為亞洲的資產管理中心其實新加坡他現在在全世界三大的一個資產投資中心他的地位已經是非常穩固了那為什麼新加坡能台灣不能"},{"start":571.164,"end":589.261,"text":"這個其實也是我一直很納悶的一個地方不管就是說在人口數還是說在這個GDP的一個占比其實我們台灣應該有一個非常好的一個條件非常好的一個條件那就是今晚會針對的這三個面向就是"},{"start":590.201,"end":619.061,"text":"針對的就是兩個國家的一個比較跟嚴密的相關的一個方案請一個月提供書面的一個回覆那我非常贊成就是說政府因勢力道那吸引更多的一個國際的資金來投資台灣建設台灣那也透過一個資產管理的相當那個相關的一個配套有效的應用資金當然我們要避免這些錢進來了他會炒房還是股市那甚至就是影響到我們的物價"},{"start":619.901,"end":647.944,"text":"那我們希望的就是這個成為是新加坡第二而不是開曼群島這個我想那個主委你應該有一個非常好的一個想法啦這個也是就是說要特別請那個主委就是把那個書面的資料在一個月內提供給本席是沒問題我會依照那個委員的指示針對裡面的一些的問題我們會一一的詳細回答好謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":502,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時14分）謝謝主席，我們先請國發會經濟發展處處長。"],["主席：請國發會邱處長。今天很多也是女性同胞。"],["賴委員惠員：處長，我們延續剛剛陳玉珍委員的議題，上個會期我們有到金門去，我們希望研議兩岸金融試行區，這是陳玉珍委員提出來的，你對這一個提案有沒有印象？"],["邱處長秋瑩：不好意思，因為這個部分不是我的處在業管，所以委員的意見，我們會帶回去研析。"],["賴委員惠員：好，帶回去，就是請它飛彈不要再對準我們，那這樣子可行性就大了，可行性就大了，金門不會是開曼群島，這個部分記得要跟陳玉珍委員報告。","處長，今天派你來應該是你對臺灣金融市場的規模跟發展有相當的研究，所以你代表國發會來報告我們如何因應全球的經濟變局。在4月2號川普會提出對等關稅的正式報告，臺灣跟美國之間，對等關稅制度課稅公式的推估，我們覺得有幾種變數，一種就是維持現狀不變；一種就是臺灣的進口關稅的稅率可能會做很大的調整，如果關稅要調整跟美國對等的2.5%，這部分我們可能要做很多的應變，你認為這樣的影響，臺灣今年的經濟是會變好還是變壞？"],["邱處長秋瑩：我想這個可能要視川普總統最後的關稅政策，以及跟我們競爭對手國相對的關係，其實行政院已經有……"],["賴委員惠員：國發會有沒有研擬一套方式，就是變好、變壞都各有一套，是不是？"],["邱處長秋瑩：行政院有成立一個臺美經貿專案小組，然後……"],["賴委員惠員：那會變好還是變壞？"],["邱處長秋瑩：院裡會成立一個專案小組，會針對所有可能的情況做沙盤推演……"],["賴委員惠員：已經成立了嗎？"],["邱處長秋瑩：有，副院長在督導。"],["賴委員惠員：成立了？"],["邱處長秋瑩：是。"],["賴委員惠員：大概是會變好還是變壞？"],["邱處長秋瑩：這個要看實際的方案跟我們的因應作為。"],["賴委員惠員：所以到現在也沒有辦法知道會變好還是變壞？"],["邱處長秋瑩：是，我們會研擬最妥適的對策。"],["賴委員惠員：所以川普用關稅向全球貿易宣戰，帶來的會是通膨還是停滯性通膨的隱憂，現在也還不確定。我要請教你，你認為接下來要維持今年經濟成長的重點有哪幾個方向？除了對外經貿談判，國發會目前規畫如何因應川普關稅、維持經濟成長率保3？"],["邱處長秋瑩：就目前我們看到的，國內外經濟機構對臺灣的預測，大概都是在3以上，特別是像S&P Global Insights在最新的預測甚至還上修臺灣的經濟成長率……"],["賴委員惠員：為了要讓經濟成長率保3，其實中央政府應該要有更多的作為，可惜今年的總預算還被卡住了，跟往年相比的話，甚至還被大幅的刪減跟凍結，這個對於預算的執行還有政策的推動，會不會受到影響呢？"],["邱處長秋瑩：我們會努力把相關的衝擊降到最低。"],["賴委員惠員：好，會把它降到最低？"],["邱處長秋瑩：是。"],["賴委員惠員：處長，你看大投資臺灣計畫跟兆元投資發展國家方案這兩個計畫，你認為兩者之間的關係為何？"],["邱處長秋瑩：這些都是要引導國內外的資金投資臺灣，來加強臺灣的競爭力。"],["賴委員惠員：所以都是非常重要的？"],["邱處長秋瑩：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝，處長你請回。","請問金管會主委，臺灣如何因應全球的經濟變局，臺股受美股連動的影響非常大，主委，你看國安基金這幾天會不會準備進場？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，國安基金是由財政部主政，我們關注的是整個市場有沒有非理性因素的影響，還有看整個市場相對的穩定度。"],["賴委員惠員：是，相對穩定，所以國安基金還不急著進場？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個由國安基金來判斷，那是財政部主政的範圍。"],["賴委員惠員：好。就整個市場的狀況，你認為國安基金會不會進場，我們還是在觀望？"],["彭主任委員金隆：據我所知，他們有一套自己的運作模式，還有一些判斷的準據。我們所關切的就是，比如說整個市場會不會有過度的非理性因素，那我們是不是應該採取相對應的作為，我想其實這部分……"],["賴委員惠員：你現在有沒有採取相對應的作為？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這是我們在整個資本市場管理上、在監督管理上的例行性業務，我想不管是我們兩個交易市場，還有相關的一些指標，我們隨時都在監看中。"],["賴委員惠員：好。主委，你提出來的兆元投資國家發展方案，最重要就是希望加強把民間的資金引到我們所有的公共建設裡頭，其中三大策略的第二點跟第三點，都是跟金管會息息相關，這個也是你念茲在茲、最擔心的，就是資金的來源、資金從哪邊來？如何擴大引進資金？最關鍵的問題就是資金從哪裡來，尤其現在美元走強的趨勢下，政府要怎麼樣吸引更多的資金回到臺灣？金管會會同經濟部研擬投資臺灣的三大方案，請問發揮的效果到哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想最重要的是，剛才委員提到的沒有錯，兆元投資計畫主要有兩個方向，第一個是創造標的，引入資金，我想這裡面大家期待很深的就是金融業的資金，特別是保險業。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛提到第一個，應該要透過跨部會的努力來創造出適合的標的、公建的標的，這個也是我們剛才所提亞洲資產管理中心的其中一部分，因為這個標的可以由金融業來投資，也可以由全民來投資，也可以吸引外資來投資，所以這部分我們正在努力，就是怎麼樣創造出這個標的、公建標的。"],["賴委員惠員：所以OIU延長10年，其實它的正當性就非常強了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：OIU本來過去就一直存在，只是因為我們過去租稅的法制上面有一定的期間，時間到了以後我們覺得政策還是需要延續，所以就讓它持續的延長10年，這是我們在推動整個比如說海外財富管理或資產管理的一環。剛剛講到我們的兆元投資，是希望國內有更多的……把公建變成是一個可投資的標的，來吸引國內外的資金。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我們都知道臺灣的金融業有上百兆的資產，你要怎麼樣引進資金？現階段面臨到最大的困難是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想主要是標的的問題，比如說就以保險為例，保險所收的保費都有答應客戶一定的……一些報酬率，它必須找到一個滿足它成本需要的標的，所以這部分我們也持續的努力，看看在國內能不能創造出更多標的，留住我們的資金來投資我們臺灣的這些產業或是公建。"],["賴委員惠員：好，標的物。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我們再回到亞洲資產管理中心，央行指出亞洲資產管理中心其實不缺資金，惟要成為亞洲資產管理中心，我們希望能形成這個生態圈，這個生態圈其實是非常重要的，我們希望留住人才，我們也希望把資金留下來，我希望金管會在一個月內提出書面的回復給我。","接著再跟主委做一個探討，就是新加坡跟臺灣如何成為亞洲的資產管理中心，其實新加坡現在在全世界三大資產投資中心，它的地位已經是非常穩固了，為什麼新加坡能臺灣不能？其實這也是我一直很納悶的地方，不管是在人口數還是在GDP的占比，其實我們臺灣應該有一個非常好的條件，請金管會針對這三個面向，進行兩個國家的比較、研擬相關方案，請一個月內提供書面的回復。","我非常贊成政府因勢利導，吸引更多國際的資金來投資臺灣、建設臺灣，也透過資產管理相關的配套，有效的運用資金。當然我們要避免這些錢進來後去炒房還是股市，甚至影響到我們的物價，我們希望能夠成為新加坡第二而不是開曼群島，我想主委應該有一個非常好的想法，要特別請主委在一個月內提供書面資料給本席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題，我會依照委員的指示，針對裡面的一些問題會一一詳細回答，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員。接著我們請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e510e9513fc5b7c91bab992d8b3314b746782ddb04f65b48d2b61b70df70fb98815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:06:48 - 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基本上呢財務結構去調整我們都不反對我們希望的是他的能源結構也能調整應該是雙軌都可以並行嘛你一邊調整財務結構那你如果有調整能源結構的話我們再跟著一起來該撥補的解決真正解決問題而不是每年都靠撥補所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思那當然未來調整方向 台水的部分"},{"start":166.152,"end":195.325,"text":"大家在說是不是有可能10度以下動漲呢次長您怎麼看就是10度以下動漲那其餘的用量分級去調補這個部分我們不預設立場優先的前提是要照顧民生不要影響物價甚至造成通膨任何一個沒有經過仔細的規劃而大家突然間去設想出來的東西難免會有一些的預期心理"},{"start":195.885,"end":219.385,"text":"所以我們基本上希望剛剛台水公司有說今天會送出來的評估報告我們會去前面性的去檢視在公司的經營上面部長多次的指示我們在不管是開源跟節流的部分都要而努力台電公司從去年年底開始來盤點今年我先再回到這個自然水好了"},{"start":220.026,"end":247.33,"text":"因為台電過去為了要節能的部分他們有補助像節能家電一樣那自來水現在如果假設也要漲價然後也要來節水的話是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢這個過去我們曾經實施過那委員所提的這個意見我們未來再整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量"},{"start":249.096,"end":260.103,"text":"這點請次長能夠用心關心一下那因為另外針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施有沒有可能假設要講納入這個動長的機制呢"},{"start":264.045,"end":281.623,"text":"基本上穩定民生照顧弱勢一直是我們各個分析事業所以這個方向是我們會考量這些的因素那目前其實就像次長講的最基礎的民生部分我們不是反對合理的反應成本"},{"start":281.983,"end":302.641,"text":"那必須要有一個透明的時程完整的評估充分的說明那最重要的是到目前為止台水的漏水率還在11至12%中間等於每年會漏掉一個10門水庫那麼多的水那所以與其漲價本席建議不如先補漏洞否則呢"},{"start":303.362,"end":327.318,"text":"民眾也會覺得說 節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人這一點愛琴部長跟自來水公司用心台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後我們從過去漏水率超過20%那現在已經降到11%左右是 有希望可以繼續的行政院 左院長也提到降漏"},{"start":328.348,"end":352.811,"text":"是一個重大的目標沒錯所以我們在114年的時候也透過立法院的這個支持在公務預算的部分來投資台水公司啊來讓他去做這個漏水利改善的事情那我們中期的目標是希望他降到一個百分之十以下的這個目標目標是百分之十以下這樣你們離目標太近了吧因為現在11你要降到百分之十"},{"start":353.191,"end":372.259,"text":"可不可以 委員那個台水公司的管線這密如好像我們人體的血管一樣他當他改善到最後的話進入到高原期的話他每投資一塊錢他改善的這個效果慢慢就會進入到高原期 趨緩的一個狀況本席知道說經濟部在113年"},{"start":374.6,"end":386.447,"text":"提出了因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到120年總經費是1000億請教這一次5年1000億治水您覺得這樣夠嗎治水我剛剛有講到說沒有最好只有更好"},{"start":397.062,"end":423.748,"text":"那各縣市的這個治水的需求委員會各國委員都非常知道那我們基本上這是一個五年的計畫那我們希望透過 但是認為不夠啦不夠應該再提啦 提高一點波普台電就已經四年三千億了今年還想要再一千億 明年還想要一千億台電一個人就花了五千億跟真正應該做的治水工作才給一千億 太少了吧"},{"start":424.97,"end":447.592,"text":"所以我們經濟部希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持我們是當然一定要支持這個治水計畫我只是覺得說太客氣了 台電一個人開要五千億 五千億開不夠 要讓他開五千億他一個人要花一兆 然後真正民眾每天擔心說我的田會不會被淹我的房子會不會被淹 結果"},{"start":449.995,"end":458.101,"text":"才1000億所以國發會已經通過了可是我覺得真的不夠啦所以次長麻煩你再爭取一下好不好我們繼續來努力爭取那今天我們討論的這個防洪抗旱其實都是以地方出發想要照顧地方照顧這些民生"},{"start":470.572,"end":488.29,"text":"那以雲林縣為例問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的這個結構性問題所以因此我們希望說經濟部能在這個優先治理的順序中將雲林納入這個高風險優先治理的縣市給予強化的支持"},{"start":494.616,"end":512.883,"text":"所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外現在行政院成立水及流域永續推動小組 如我剛剛的報告中那我們未來會透過空間突起的套點把這些剛剛委員所提到的重點應該治理的地區把它抓出來優先投入經費"},{"start":513.962,"end":527.173,"text":"是 尤其其實雲林縣的沿海地區過去您也常常去那包括水林口湖台西四湖甚至園長我們都設置了不少的這個大型的抽水站但是因應氣候變遷強降雨等等那短時間內的這個強降雨都是"},{"start":532.377,"end":559.21,"text":"標非常的高那水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的這個排水量是不是這個看能不能增加他的這個每秒鐘的這個CMS的量這一點是不是可以請次長支持我們同意委員的這個建議然後目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱的治理在沿海或是河川的下游地區"},{"start":560.29,"end":566.989,"text":"然後他的通紅 促進他的通紅能力加大抽水站的能量 這個是我們的目標"},{"start":567.708,"end":589.684,"text":"好這一點也要特別拜託次長畢竟您是這個水利專家我相信您一定有辦法把這個監督落實完成那當然剛才您強調的這個水及流域永續推動小組是由經濟部農業部環境部跟內政部來組成那我們也希望說這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權"},{"start":591.545,"end":610.636,"text":"例如說治理這個經費的優先順序計畫審查的簡化權限或者就是你如果沒有一個統籌的單位的話太可惜了那你還是各自為政我們也希望說推薦經濟部由賴次長是不是來做這個主導來統籌這些資源來落實這個機制謝謝委員的建議謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時6分）主席，我想請賴次長。"],["主席：賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：賴次長早。首先，我要先感謝你多年來在水利領域的專業與奉獻，尤其本席的家鄉雲林，就受到次長許多的關心，在水利署的時候，推動了很多項的重大建設，如前瞻基礎計畫中的水環境建設，這些計畫大幅提升我國防洪跟供水的能力，為國人帶來更安全、更優質的水環境，所以我真的非常地感謝次長。","剛剛呂玉玲委員所提出的部分，本席也非常地好奇，就是沸沸揚揚的水電雙漲議題，在上個禮拜五已經決定凍漲電價，但是現在大家最最關心的就是水價會不會漲呢？目前外界評估最快3月底會提出檢討方案，請問這個水價報告到底什麼時候會出爐呢？"],["賴次長建信：首先，最近對於電的部分，經過審議委員會綜合地考量，特別是國際關稅的措施跟貿易的談判，對於我們現在經濟的影響，這個不確定性太大了，所以大家認為為了穩定物價、照顧民生，甚至要維持產業的競爭力，我們希望這次不調漲。但是過去因為從111年開始，連續三年國際燃料價格大漲，讓台電公司背負承擔民生的部分，幾乎有兩千六百億，總體有6,000億。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["賴次長建信：這個部分，過去委員會也通過追加減預算，我們希望這部分可以透過立法院院會的支持，讓台電的財務結構會更好。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上財務結構去調整，我們都不反對，我們希望的是能源結構也能調整，應該是雙軌都可以並行，一邊調整財務結構，如果你有調整了，能源結構再跟著一起處理，才能真正解決問題，而不是每年都靠撥補，所以這一點也希望次長可以花一點心思。當然未來調整方向，在台水的部分，大家在說是不是有可能10度以下凍漲呢？次長，您怎麼看10度以下凍漲，其餘的用量分級去調幅？"],["賴次長建信：這個部分我們不預設立場，但優先的前提是要照顧民生，不要影響物價，甚至造成通膨，任何一個沒有經過仔細地規劃，大家突然間設想出來的東西，難免會有一些預期心理。剛剛台水公司提到今天會送出來的評估報告，我們會全面性去檢視，在公司的經營上面，部長多次指示我們，不管是開源跟節流的部分都要有努力。台電公司從去年年底開始盤點，今年它可以開源節流、可以節省……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再回到自來水好了。"],["賴次長建信：好。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為台電過去為了要節能，他們有補助像節能家電，現在自來水假設也要漲價、也要來節水的話，是不是也可以導入節水設備的更新補助呢？"],["賴次長建信：過去我們曾經實施過，委員所提的這個意見，未來在整體評估台水公司所提出來的報告，我們會請水利署跟台水公司納入考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，這一點請次長能夠關心一下。另外，針對學校還有老人長照機構等公益的社福設施，假設要漲，有沒有可能納入凍漲的機制呢？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，穩定民生、照顧弱勢，一直是我們各個國營事業……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這個方向是……"],["賴次長建信：我們會考量這些因素。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前就像次長講的，最基礎的民生部分，我們不是反對合理地反映成本，但必須要有一個透明的時程、完整的評估、充分的說明，最重要的是到目前為止，台水的漏水率還在11%至12%中間，等於每年會漏掉一個石門水庫那麼多的水，與其漲價，本席建議不如先補漏洞，否則民眾也會覺得節水就是在懲罰這些守規矩的人，這一點要請部長跟自來水公司用心。"],["賴次長建信：台水公司自從實施第一期的降漏計畫之後，我們從過去漏水率超過20%，現在已經降到11%左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，也希望可以繼續……"],["賴次長建信：行政院卓院長也提到降漏是一個重大的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。"],["賴次長建信：所以我們在114年的時候，也透過立法院的支持，在公務預算部分投資台水公司，讓它處理漏水率改善的事情，我們中期的目標是希望降到10%以下的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：目標是10%以下，這樣你們離目標太近了吧？現在是11%，你要降到10%，可不可以……"],["賴次長建信：沒有。委員，台水公司的管線好像人體血管一樣，當它改善到最後、進入到高原期，每投資一塊錢，改善的效果慢慢就會進入到高原期、趨緩的狀況。"],["張委員嘉郡：效益比較低、趨緩。本席知道經濟部在113年提出「因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫（115-120年）」總經費是1,000億，請教這一次5年1,000億治水，您覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["賴次長建信：我剛剛有講到治水沒有最好，只有更好，各縣市治水的需求，委員會各個委員都非常知道，基本上這是一個5年的計畫，我們希望透過各個部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席認為不夠啦！應該再提高一點，撥補台電就已經4年3,000億了，今年還想要再1,000億，明年還想要1,000億，台電一個人就花了5,000億，跟真正應該做的治水工作才給1,000億，太少了吧？"],["賴次長建信：所以我們希望經濟部所提的各個計畫委員會都可以支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們當然一定要支持治水計畫，我只是覺得太客氣了，台電一個人花了近5,000億，5,000億不夠花，還要再讓它花5,000億，它一個人要花1兆，真正民眾每天擔心的，如我的田會不會被淹、我的房子會不會被淹，結果才花1,000億，雖然國發會已經通過了，可是我覺得真的不夠，所以次長，麻煩你再爭取一下，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：我們必要時再滾動性檢討，好。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們繼續來努力爭取。今天我們討論的防洪抗旱，其實都是以地方出發，想要照顧地方、照顧民生，以雲林縣為例，問題的本質從來就不是單一的設施或者是事件，而是與地勢、地層、財政、極端氣候交織之下的結構性問題。因此，我們希望經濟部能在優先治理的順序中，將雲林納入高風險優先治理的縣市，給予強化地支持。"],["賴次長建信：所以我們不但是在工程面提預算之外，如我剛剛的報告中提到，現在行政院也成立水及流域永續推動小組，我們未來會透過空間圖形的套疊，把剛剛委員所提到的重點、應該治理的地區抓出來，優先投入經費。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。尤其雲林縣的沿海地區，過去你也常常去，包括水林、口湖、臺西、四湖，甚至元長，我們都設置了不少的大型抽水站，但是因應氣候變遷、強降雨等等，短時間內的強降雨都是飆非常地高，水利署是不是也能夠再加大下游的排水量，看能不能增加它每秒鐘CMS的量？這一點是不是可以請次長支持？"],["賴次長建信：我們同意委員的建議，目前我們也在請地方政府依照這個原則，也就是我們今天報告所提到的不對稱治理，在沿海或是河川的下游地區，促進通孔能力，加大抽水站的能量，這個是我們的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，這一點也要特別拜託次長，畢竟您是水利專家，我相信您一定有辦法把監督落實完成。當然剛才您強調的水及流域永續推動小組，是由經濟部、農業部、環境部跟內政部組成，我們也希望這個小組應該要有跨部會整合資源的實權，例如治理經費的優先順序、計畫審查的簡化權限，如果沒有一個統籌單位的話，太可惜了，那就還是各自為政嘛！我們也希望推薦經濟部由賴次長來做主導，來統籌這些資源，以落實這個機制。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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所以有什麼很大的影響嘛"},{"start":175.854,"end":192.661,"text":"因為像這個比如說動三層的話沒有影響啊你到現在都還沒有送過來都已經快兩個月啊你們也沒有送解凍案啊前面幾個月是我們還是民進黨團也不在乎啊因為民進黨團反正讓行政院院會也沒辦法像那個"},{"start":193.861,"end":212.182,"text":"總之那個大院有沒有 院會也沒辦法開嘛反正他們站著主席台也不打算讓任何案子通過嘛所以他們也不在乎這個解凍案啦你們也不在乎嘛好 謝謝次長來我們請今晚會主委我們跟請教一下OIU的部分你們OIU在各部分做免稅優惠延長這個10年嘛那原來你們設定的這個"},{"start":216.496,"end":234.67,"text":"這個數目和收入的這個總額跟你們原來預估的你看一下這個表原來我們預估設立是36家保險局上來截至112年底獲准成立20家達成率是55%原定預算規模31但截至112年底的規模只有達成1.39億只有達成4.65%"},{"start":239.215,"end":244.541,"text":"哇 你看到史上最悲的這個新聞報導2025年的 今年的報道 上個月的報道OIU授權保單一年只賣四張啊 四張一二三四 四張五大關鍵原因 這個經濟日報的報導五大關鍵原因來 我先請問一下這個保險局 您上來吧"},{"start":260.595,"end":280.211,"text":"OIU一年保單只賣四張我們剛剛那個數字都是相關報告應該沒有錯2024年全年只賣四張是這樣子嗎是的為什麼呢受險的一個新契約為什麼呢因為大概過去幾年我們的疫情因素的影響疫情好來沒錯疫情是第二點經濟日報說全球2020到2022爆發疫情第一點是什麼"},{"start":283.274,"end":299.907,"text":"是還有那個全球一個聚災聚災的一個衝擊的不可控的這些因素那還有我們整個外籍客戶比如說像我們的那個入客來台的人數也有減少第一點最大客源的入客遭大陸"},{"start":300.868,"end":324.487,"text":"限制來台 客源少了一大塊嘛對不對然後第二個疫情啦第三個當然什麼美國的肥咖條款第四個地緣政治那還有一點實務上的我先跟您請教一下實務上我聽到很多保險業者跟我講說好像還有這個中間還有這個仲介手續費怎麼報的問題是不是有實際上遇到這個問題你知道我在說什麼嗎"},{"start":326.969,"end":351.346,"text":"業務員如果去拉客戶 在海外拉客戶那可能有海外的 海外的 他們也會有海外的仲介那這邊也有這邊的仲介嘛 你要拉客戶嘛拉那個大咖的客戶那這邊的這個仲介的 這個海外的那個仲介的費用好像沒有辦法支出還是怎麼樣是這樣子吧 您了解我的說什麼嗎您不了解實務面是吧報告委員就是說我們的那個費用好像沒有辦法支出啊 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":353.208,"end":374.642,"text":"你知道嗎 我要拉 比如說我要拉彭金榮他是這個香港的巨富然後他有一個仲介 也會有一個broker嘛那我們這邊也有仲介的嘛 就是營業員 就是broker就是 然後我們透過我們的仲介去拉香港的這個巨富的時候那個那邊仲介的費用是沒有辦法報的耶我們相關的 你了解這事情嗎"},{"start":376.044,"end":392.973,"text":"你不了解是不是哇 你主管保險業務你不知道 這是金融業者跟我們保險業者跟我們反映的而且說這是普遍的一個原因所造成這個這個業界沒有辦法去海外因為這個中間的這個整個費用差別很大所以他們去拉也不一定划算因為這個費用沒辦法保"},{"start":393.553,"end":406.447,"text":"你不了解你回去了解這個是實務面上遇到問題但是當然整體的大的環境的原因就是入客那當然地緣政治疫情已經結束了那說到地緣政治來我請主委"},{"start":408.228,"end":415.591,"text":"說到敵人政治 賴總統3月13號他提出中國大陸是境外敵對勢力那這個是不是加劇了國人認為戰爭提高的風險性整個提高"},{"start":424.414,"end":450.354,"text":"我想這個在我們金管會我們考慮的點就是說我們在整個金融市場是不是足夠穩定跟透明我想這部分我們只是我們會來配合這不是你可以改變的啦我知道那這個但是這個對你在推不管是財富管理中心啦或者是在推這一種什麼OIU啊什麼這一類啦我想對於在美國啊日本啊各地都覺得台灣人真的很危險好像是一個隨時會發生戰爭的地方當台灣的有錢人"},{"start":454.537,"end":477.53,"text":"有資產高資產的人都紛紛的怕因為戰爭把自己的錢往外移的時候這個是應該現在普遍的情形至少我知道很多人都是這樣做紛紛的把高資產我們有高資產階層都紛紛把自己的錢往外移的時候我們如何期待世界各地的有權人把他們的錢拿來台灣讓我們來管理呢這個地緣政治影響實在是太大了"},{"start":477.99,"end":505.857,"text":"我想就剛剛跟幾個委員也報告過了我們要推這個計畫當然會有它的困難但是我們也不是只有困難我們也有我們的優勢反正這個東西也不是你可以影響我只是我說也是要讓我們的高層聽到如果一直把台海形塑成是一個可能打仗的地方其實保險局長在這裡包括現在世界上很多船運 兵險這是相關的業者告訴我很多這個貨物都不願意靠來台灣"},{"start":506.917,"end":523.673,"text":"因為這個兵險很多保險公司不願意保國際保險公司也不願意保因為這個兵險的話是他們覺得不可以預期也許沒有辦法承擔的造成我們港口的這個進出很多頓速各方面的這個量也變少其實這是影響很大包括外資要不要來投資的這種"},{"start":525.534,"end":539.106,"text":"亂邦不入 違邦不入亂邦不居嘛 古時候不是如你這樣說嗎所以我們如果一直把自己造成是一個地緣政治比較風險高的地方事實上對你要完成的這個所謂不管是亞洲資產關係或者讓國人高資產潛留下來或讓外國有錢人進來的話這個機會很小啦"},{"start":546.071,"end":568.814,"text":"機會真的很小 你會越來越困難啊到時候不是你兩年什麼有成你想做但是很難成功大環境實在太不好兩年我們是希望能夠大家能夠知道我們這個沒關係我跟你講在這個中間我看到一個機會我們去年不是有去金門考察這個兩岸金融市行區嗎在現在這個大家不要笑的確就是金門因為在現在兩岸沒有往來現在兩岸沒有往來但是金門還有往來"},{"start":569.995,"end":596.309,"text":"金門是有陸客的地方陸客現在還到金門去有團體行遊、有自由行遊金門也可以很正常的這樣往來一天還是好幾十班船兩岸的往來在金門還是很密切在金門像我們每個月大概金門地區去那邊不管是進鄉或者過來的還是團體還是相當多這個相當多一天大概上個禮拜就一千多上上禮拜一千多個人去媽祖進鄉再上個禮拜"},{"start":597.49,"end":616.688,"text":"保生大地大概有三五百個 下個禮拜又有玄天上帝反正就是很多宗教文化各方面的往來我們去年有去考察說兩岸金門算是一個現在在台海局勢比較緊張的地方是大概 我大概敢確定如果台海真的打仗金門應該是不會有戰爭的地方大概比較危險的是台灣島"},{"start":621.733,"end":642.74,"text":"所以我們有討論說把金門成為一個兩岸金融市行區國泰人壽在2016年也曾經去設OIU的這個據點後來因為後來結束因為是覺得地理位置好政策缺乏支持沒有成效所以我們講一下想請你上次我們已經去考察過了兩位副局長也有去現在在"},{"start":643.2,"end":664.036,"text":"入客在金門也可以團體來 自由行可以來 團體也可以來他們高資產大陸的高資產客戶也是很多所以如果請你open mind一點就是這個四點包括這個兩岸金融示範區這個部分是不是請相關的這個主管機關演繹一下相關的在法令行政上面可以協助的事項 好嗎"},{"start":665.057,"end":688.806,"text":"是沒問題沒問題書面包給我媽看我們有沒有什麼發展的空間或者是在兩岸這個緊繃的情況下在一個比較至少在一個和平的島金門這個島上面是不是還有什麼兩岸是不是還有什麼可行的方向讓這個兩岸的氣氛在那裡可以慢慢的慢慢的讓氣氛慢慢平和然後讓到後來到台灣島的這個整個氣氛也可以平和"},{"start":689.526,"end":696.536,"text":"我會按照委員的指示一個月內把相關的研究的報告送給您好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時2分）謝謝主席，請金管會還有財政部，阮次長跟主委。"],["主席：金管會主委，還有財政部阮次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早安。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委、次長早。"],["阮次長清華：委員早。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們預算通過後，有沒有什麼窒礙難行嗎？"],["阮次長清華：預算通過？"],["陳委員玉珍：我看到了財政部跟……"],["阮次長清華：你是說財劃法嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：不是財劃法，總預算。"],["阮次長清華：總預算，因為上次我們有申請覆議，結果沒有通過嘛！沒有通過，那現在我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們有提出你們窒礙難行的部分嗎？"],["阮次長清華：當然裡面的確是有一些問題……"],["陳委員玉珍：也有，金管會也有嘛！"],["阮次長清華：特別是通刪那部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：還有一些凍結的部分也有嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，凍結那部分也受到一些影響。"],["陳委員玉珍：兩個部會解凍案送來了沒有？"],["阮次長清華：對不起！"],["陳委員玉珍：你們的解凍案送過來了沒有？"],["阮次長清華：解凍的部分？"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["阮次長清華：因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：對財政部凍結的部分……"],["阮次長清華：現在正在準備當中。"],["陳委員玉珍：還沒有，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：對，慢慢在處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：慢慢喔！金管會送了沒？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們所有的報告大概都準備好了，大概就是按照程序來進行。"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼時候會送啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就按照委員會排審的時間來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：我看你們好像不大急，但是你們在預算被凍的時候，這兩個部會……當然我沒有看到你們下鄉去宣講，但是你們的網站也是寫說凍結預算不利這個、不利那個，影響效能、不利財政、影響什麼建設服務等，你們知道去（113）年預算解凍案是什麼時候開始送進立法院嗎？因為去年也有預算被凍嘛！今年是114年嘛！現在2025年嘛！2024年的時候也有凍2023年的預算，去（2024）年是什麼時候送進來解凍？"],["阮次長清華：這個可能還要再查。"],["陳委員玉珍：我告訴你好不好？我告訴你們答案。"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們去年立法院開議是2月20號正式開議，財政部是開議的18天後，在3月8號列入立法院的議程；金管會是在3月22號，就是33天後，就是說立法院開議幾天後開始排解凍嘛！開始把資料送過來，你們要送過來立法院才能排議程嘛！好，你知道現在已經多少天了？我們是2月11號正式開議，現在已經48天了，你們有單位送過來給我們解凍嗎？沒有嘛！財政部也還沒有嘛！對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我們目前還在準備當中。"],["陳委員玉珍：還沒準備好，對嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，這次要……"],["陳委員玉珍：金管會也還沒有，對吧？"],["阮次長清華：被凍結的案子很多，所以我們要花一點時間準備。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們不急嘛！可見沒有因為預算……"],["阮次長清華：不是不急。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有因為預算被凍有什麼很大的影響嘛！對吧？"],["阮次長清華：因為比如說像凍三成的話，大概都是……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有影響啊，你到現在都還沒有送過來，都已經……"],["阮次長清華：都是在前面幾個月……"],["陳委員玉珍：都已經快兩個月，你們也沒有送解凍案。"],["阮次長清華：前面幾個月我們還是可以啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：民進黨團也不在乎，因為民進黨團反正讓行政院……"],["阮次長清華：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，像大院院會也沒辦法開嘛！反正他們占著主席臺，也不打算讓任何案子通過嘛！所以他們也不在乎解凍案啊！你們也不在乎嘛！好，謝謝次長。","請金管會主委，我跟您請教一下OIU的部分。你們OIU免稅優惠延長10年，原來你們設立數目及收入總額跟你們原來預估的，你看一下這個表，原來預估設立36家，截至112年底獲准成立20家，達成率是55%，原訂預算規模30億，但截至112年底規模達成1.39億，只有達成4.65%，哇！你看今（2025）年2月的「史上最悲！OIU壽險保單一年只賣4張，五大關鍵原因曝」這篇新聞報導，經濟日報的報導五大關鍵原因，我先請問一下保險局，OIU一年保單只賣4張，剛剛都是相關報導的數字應該沒有錯？"],["王局長麗惠：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：2024年全年只賣4張，是這樣子嗎？"],["王局長麗惠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼呢？"],["王局長麗惠：壽險的一個新契約。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼呢？"],["王局長麗惠：過去幾年，大概我們疫情因素的一個影響……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，疫情是第二點。"],["王局長麗惠：對，還有……"],["陳委員玉珍：經濟日報說全球2020到2022爆發疫情，第一點是什麼？"],["王局長麗惠：還有全球巨災衝擊等不可控的這些因素，還有整個外籍客戶，比如說像陸客來臺人數也有減少，還有他們資金的控管……"],["陳委員玉珍：第一點，最大客源的陸客遭大陸限制來臺，客源少了一大塊嘛！對不對？"],["王局長麗惠：是，過去有很多是陸客……"],["陳委員玉珍：然後第二個，疫情；第三個，當然美國肥咖條款；第四個，地緣政治；還有一點實務上的，我先跟您請教一下，實務上我聽到很多保險業者跟我講，好像中間還有仲介手續費怎麼報的問題，是不是實際上有遇到這個問題，你知道我在說什麼嗎？業務員如果在海外拉客戶，可能他們也會有海外的仲介，這邊有這邊的仲介，你要拉客戶，拉大咖的客戶，海外仲介的費用好像沒有辦法支出還是怎麼樣，是這樣子嗎？您了解我在說什麼嗎？你不了解實務面是嗎？"],["王局長麗惠：報告委員，就是說我們的……"],["陳委員玉珍：那個費用好像沒有辦法支出還是怎麼樣？你知道嗎？比如說，我要拉彭金隆，他是香港的巨富，他會有一個仲介、broker嘛！我們這邊也有仲介的人，就是營業員、broker，然後我們透過我們的仲介去拉香港巨富的時候，那邊的仲介費用是沒有辦法報的。"],["王局長麗惠：我們相關的……"],["陳委員玉珍：你了解這個事情嗎？你不了解是不是？"],["王局長麗惠：報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：哇！你主管保險業務，你不知道，這是保險業者跟我們反映的，而且說這是普遍的原因，造成業界沒有辦法去海外，因為這中間整個費用差別很大，所以他們去拉也不一定划算，因為這個費用沒辦法報。好，你不了解，你回去了解！這個是實務面上遇到的問題，但是整體大環境的原因就是陸客嘛！當然地緣政治，疫情已經結束了。說到地緣政治，請問主委，賴總統3月13號提出中國大陸是境外敵對勢力，這個是不是整個加劇了國人認為戰爭風險性提高？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個在金管會考慮的點就是在整個金融市場是不是足夠穩定跟透明，我想這部分我們會來……"],["陳委員玉珍：這不是你可以改變的啦！我知道，但是這個對你在推不管是財富管理中心，或者是在推什麼OIU等這一類，我想對於在美國、日本等各地都覺得臺灣地緣政治很危險，好像是一個隨時會發生戰爭的地方，當臺灣的有錢人，有資產、高資產的人都紛紛因為怕戰爭，把自己的錢往外移的時候，這個應該是現在普遍的情形，至少我知道很多人都是這樣做，我們的高資產階層都紛紛把自己的錢往外移的時候，我們如何期待世界各地的有錢人，把他們的錢拿來臺灣讓我們來管理呢？地緣政治的影響實在是太大了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛跟幾個委員也報告過了，我們要推這個計畫當然會有它的困難，但是也不是只有困難，我們也有我們的優勢……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，反正這個東西也不是你可以影響的，只是我說也是要讓我們的高層聽到，如果一直把臺海形塑成是一個可能打仗的地方，其實保險局長也在這裡，包括現在世界上很多的船運因為兵險，這是相關的業者告訴我的，很多貨物都不願意來停靠臺灣，因為很多保險公司不願意承保兵險，國際保險公司也不願意保，因為兵險是他們覺得不可以預期，也許沒有辦法承擔的，造成進出我們港口的噸數、各方面的量也變少。其實這是影響很大的，包括外資要不要來投資的考量，所謂「危邦不入，亂邦不居」嘛，對吧？古時候論語不是這樣說嗎？所以我們如果一直把自己營造成是一個地緣政治風險比較高的地方，事實上對你要完成所謂，不管是亞洲資產管理中心，或者讓高資產的國人將錢留下來，或讓外國有錢人進來的話，這個機會很小，機會真的很小，你會越來越困難，到時候不是你兩年什麼有成，你想做但是很難成功，大環境實在太不好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是希望兩年能夠讓大家知道我們這個政策的……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，我跟你講，在這個中間我看到一個機會，我們去年不是有去金門考察兩岸金融試行區嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：大家不要笑，的確就是金門，因為現在臺海兩岸沒有往來，但是金門跟對岸還有往來，金門是有陸客的地方，陸客現在還到金門去，有團體行也有自由行，金門人也可以很正常的跟對岸往來，一天還是好幾十班船，兩岸的往來在金門還是很密切。像我們每個月大概金門地區去那邊，不管是進香或者過來的團體還是相當多，還是相當多，上上個禮拜就有一千多個人跟著媽祖去進香，上個禮拜就是保生大帝大概有三、五百個，下個禮拜又有什麼玄天上帝，反正就是很多很多宗教文化各方面的往來。我們去年有去考察兩岸金融示範區，在現在臺海局勢比較緊張的狀況下，我大概敢確定如果臺海真的打仗，金門應該是不會有戰爭的地方，大概比較危險的是臺灣島，所以我們有討論讓金門成為一個兩岸金融試行區。國泰人壽在2016年也曾經去設OIU的據點，後來結束營運，也是覺得地理位置好，政策缺乏支持，沒有成效。所以，我們想請你，上次我們已經去考察過了，兩位副局長也有去，現在陸客在金門自由行也可以來，團體也可以來，大陸的高資產客戶也是很多，所以請你open-minded一點開放試點，包括兩岸金融示範區這個部分，是不是請相關的主管機關研訂一下在相關的法令、行政上面可以協助的事項，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有問題，我們會……"],["陳委員玉珍：給我一個書面報告，看我們有沒有什麼發展的空間，或者是在兩岸緊繃的情況下，在一個至少比較和平的島，金門這個島上面是不是兩岸之間還有什麼可行的方向，讓兩岸的氣氛在那裡可以慢慢地、慢慢地讓氣氛變得平和，然後進而擴散到臺灣島的整個氣氛也可以平和，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我會按照委員的指示，一個月內把相關的研究報告送給您。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5f44940c006ce1b18ab992d8b3314b746782ddb04f65b48d2ba19aca0d7bc67965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:56:45 - 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農業的幹線裡面 他在不需要水的時候的時間 我們把不需要水 我才誇獎說我們次長對我們水的治理非常了解那時候的情形就是什麼時候水關掉了 那所以水沒有排到農業用水 農業用水很多的水井水是往"},{"start":221.414,"end":245.348,"text":"低處流我們的背沿水井水是比較深的所以這個水井是未來我們要給民生為優先使用的結果你們偷抽我們的水去給住客用這個事情不要再發生好不好以民生為優先市長在這邊承諾以民生為優先好不好當然我們是以民生為優先考量那接下來我們想問的就是我現在才要問你再生水廠的事情"},{"start":247.338,"end":274.113,"text":"次長因為我們桃竹苗在我們卓院長有宣布行政院有宣示說要做桃竹苗的大溪谷計畫那我們為了要深化產業的實力來促進整體園區的發展那我們對水電的供應應該有相當的配套那所以特別提到這大溪谷計畫裡面本席方開來看了一下你們對於這個水電的供應配套裡面特別有提到再生水廠的推動方案"},{"start":275.214,"end":297.213,"text":"那經濟部有在這方面有規劃到龜山還有苗栗的再生水廠但是這只停留在預估預估的階段而已可行性評估都沒有做請問一下你這個可行性評估沒有做那未來這個發生了缺水的情況之下目前的再生水廠供應的需求若不夠怎麼辦呢現在夠嗎如果是缺水的話目前的再生水廠夠不夠"},{"start":305.639,"end":315.792,"text":"這個所謂缺水要看所謂的水的缺用的一個程度不過剛剛瑋瑜所提到的不管是在我們陶北的那已經有1.8萬噸的再生水場"},{"start":318.24,"end":334.176,"text":"那這些部分是提供給廠商因為他可能加入RE100他對所謂的環境的運用是更好的這些就是要把都評估進去都要評估進來做可行性的評估你的可行性評估都還沒有送出來你什麼時候要送出來"},{"start":334.967,"end":362.601,"text":"跟委員說明你的這個黃色的部分是由內政部在做推動的那至於說你左邊這張圖的藍色的部分事實上都有計劃在推行之中不管是在陶北從原來的1.8萬噸到8萬噸這個118年就可以完成就我們從內政部掌握的資料是如此的那你都評估了嗎可行性都可以再做了嗎那這個已經開始在做了所以可行性已經過了"},{"start":365.465,"end":370.11,"text":"這個部分已經有 已經有了所以我們希望趕快來做整個大矽谷計畫的話讓我們那個產業的投資才有信心不然的話他們在擴大的情況就沒有競爭力了好不好好 我們會請內政部教授來推薦那接下來本席要問一下那因為這個我們的電價"},{"start":386.528,"end":389.43,"text":"審議委員會已經決議了我們的電價為了顧民生然後穩定我們的物價決議不調漲了電價不調漲了但是我們擔心水價會不會調漲那因為有人在說水價可能會調漲因為那個我們卓院長特別提到說要合理性的電價要做調整那雖然水"},{"start":407.824,"end":417.874,"text":"31年沒有調動了但是我們也必須要把這個整體的水價合理性的提出檢討報告要送出來那現在送出來了沒有"},{"start":418.75,"end":442.749,"text":"目前為止我沒有收到這個台水公司所說的報告台水公司說今天會送過來這台水公司還沒有送我們現在議題都已經排出來了還沒有送總經理說今天他公司會報出來但是水利署好像還沒有看過這個報告那基本上我們對於所謂的公用事業包括民生所需要的不管是水跟電的問題我們除了"},{"start":446.596,"end":463.466,"text":"讓這個國營事業他有健全的財務體質之外我們也要考慮到社會上面對物價的衝擊所以當這個報告出來我們會仔細的去檢視他在公司的治理的部分有沒有像這個台電公司從產銷人發財各方面去檢審"},{"start":464.822,"end":479.672,"text":"支出來減少虧損讓整個經營更有效益的方法那所有可以促進台水公司可以有健全發展的這個方案我相信水利署跟我們經濟部都會盡快送出來了"},{"start":481.613,"end":508.755,"text":"那因為本席會這樣子問的話就是因為在2023年在王美花部長的時候特別有做出一份報告檢討水價合理性的結構報告裡面特別有提到說要增加水費集聚來累計計費的這個大部分的這個差價分段的這個差價目前是分成四段那未來的話你們可能會分為幾段"},{"start":510.957,"end":525.251,"text":"這個過去除了集聚加大集聚的部分社會有一些因為現在四段的話是50度以上50度以上但基本上我們對於台水公司所提出來的檢討報告我們不預設綠場也不用設施框架"},{"start":526.312,"end":543.065,"text":"那如此一來可以讓他可以客觀的去看到任何的一個改善財務結構的一個可能改善財務結構也要顧民生那現在我們看到的這四段51度以上的這部分大概都是民生在用電"},{"start":543.866,"end":549.354,"text":"那現在你們也有徵收這個耗水費嘛耗水費是單月的話大用戶的話超過9000度的話你們就耗水費每度增加3塊錢9000度是大用戶應該都是產業啦中小業還沒有啦"},{"start":560.609,"end":588.147,"text":"那未來我們自來水公司如果送出這個整個檢討報告表之後的話我們希望說你們可以在集聚裡面做一個調整做一個調整來讓保一定不要影響到民生用水的權利的範圍內才做調整那如果說你要增加的部分這個集聚的部分增加集聚的話也不要都沒有先跟我們產業溝通讓產業溝通之後都有所準備才不會影響他們整個作業這樣好不好"},{"start":588.527,"end":596.003,"text":"好 謝謝委員 非常好的提醒跟建議好 那你會這樣做了 不要影響民生好謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（9時56分）謝謝主席，請賴常次。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：常次，恭喜你從水利署長升到常次。治水防洪業務都是次長的長項，你都非常瞭解，也非常有經驗，剛剛有特別講到預算的問題，法定預算可以直接執行，凍結預算的部分請趕快送出來，我們就可以解凍，送出來就可以解凍，只要報告清楚，而且是人民需要的，我們都會予以解凍，好不好？","我今天要特別談到一些防洪抗旱的準備工作，近年來因為氣候變遷，使得降雨型態改變了很多，雖然最近我們看到水庫的蓄水量還很樂觀，沒有缺水的情形，但是前幾年發生的旱災也導致我們的用水很吃緊。尤其是前幾年我們的燈號還在橙燈的時候，但是我所在的那個區域，龍潭的備援水井連夜被偷偷抽水供應竹北的竹科，這個問題一再地發生，雖然我們今年的水情看起來還不錯，但是我們還是要未雨綢繆，有些必要性的工作還是要先做。","尤其是我們看到全臺科學園區的用水量，一天大概是55萬噸，產業園區是55到60萬噸的情形，請問次長，如果發生缺水的狀況，民生、農業和產業誰會優先供水？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們希望透過供水韌性來改善，這幾年也有產生效果，對於桃園地區，我們即便面臨到104年當時的枯旱情境，也不會進入到分區輪流供水，為什麼呢？因為我們從北部逐漸的把水往南調，調到石門這邊來，這些工作都已經開始在展開之中，行政院也核定了。剛剛委員所詢問到的再生水，這是一個可以擴大運用的部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：我還沒問到再生水。"],["賴次長建信：你剛剛講……"],["呂委員玉玲：你跳格了！我現在是問你，民生、農業和產業如果發生搶水的情形，你會優先供給哪一個單位？"],["賴次長建信：當然是以民生為主。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，所以你在這邊承諾，尤其是水利法第十八條第一項的規定也是要先供給民生用水，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：我們過去一直是如此。"],["呂委員玉玲：你承諾一定要以供給民生用水，不要再發生搶水的情形，或偷偷的來抽我們的備用水井，好不好？因為龍潭有5口備用水井。"],["賴次長建信：委員，那時候是因為抗旱緊急工程，並不是偷抽的。"],["呂委員玉玲：抗旱也要以民生為優先，你抽去給產業用的話，我們當地的用水就發生了困難。"],["賴次長建信：不會，因為在供水的幹網裡面，農業的幹線裡面，在不需要水的時間，我們把那個水源充分運用。"],["呂委員玉玲：不會不需要水，我剛剛才誇獎次長對於水的治理非常瞭解，那時候的情形就是石門水庫的水關掉了，所以水沒有排到農業用水，很多水井的水是往低處流，但是我們備援水井的水是比較深的，這個水井未來我們要以民生為優先使用，結果你們偷抽我們的水去給竹科用，這個事情不要再發生了，好不好？以民生為優先，次長在這邊承諾以民生為優先，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：當然我們是以民生為優先考量。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，我現在才要問你再生水廠的事情，次長，因為不只卓院長有宣布，行政院也有宣示要推動桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，為了要深化產業實力，促進整體園區發展，我們對水電的供應應該有相當的配套。針對大矽谷計畫，本席翻開來看了一下，你們對於水電的供應配套裡面有特別提到再生水廠推動方案，經濟部在這方面有規劃龜山和苗栗的再生水廠，但是這只停留在預估階段而已，連可行性評估都沒有做。請問可行性評估沒有做，未來發生缺水的情況之下，目前再生水廠的供應若不能夠符合需求該怎麼辦呢？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員的指導。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在夠嗎？如果缺水的話，目前的再生水廠夠不夠？"],["賴次長建信：所謂的缺水要看水的缺用程度，不過就剛剛委員所提到的，桃北已經有1.8萬噸的再生水廠，這些部分是提供給廠商的，因為它可能加入RE100，所以對所謂的環境應用是更好的。除此之外……"],["呂委員玉玲：這些都要評估進去做可行性的評估，但是你連可行性評估都還沒有送出來，什麼時候要送出來？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，你的黃色部分是由內政部在推動的，至於左邊這張圖的藍色部分，事實上都有計畫在推行之中，不管是桃北從原來的1.8萬噸到8萬噸，118年就可以完成。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你都評估好了？"],["賴次長建信：就我們從內政部掌握的資料是如此的。"],["呂委員玉玲：你的可行性評估都在做了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個已經開始在做了，細節的部分是不是……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以可行性評估都已經過了？"],["賴次長建信：桃北的這個部分已經有了。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望趕快推動整個大矽谷計畫，這樣我們的產業投資才有信心，不然他們要再擴大的話就沒有競爭力了，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：好，我們會請內政部加速來推動。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來，本席要問的是，因為我們的電價審議委員會為了顧民生、穩定物價，已經決議電價不調漲，但是我們擔心的是水價會不會調漲，有人說水價可能會調漲，卓院長也特別提到水價要做合理性的調整。雖然水費已經31年沒有調動了，但是我們也必須要提出整體水價合理性的檢討報告，現在送出來了沒有？"],["賴次長建信：到目前為止，我沒有收到台水公司所說的報告，台水公司說今天會送過來。"],["呂委員玉玲：自來水公司還沒有送，我們今天的議題都已經排出來，還沒有送？"],["賴次長建信：總經理說今天公司會報出來，但是水利署好像還沒有看過這個報告，基本上，我們對於所謂的公用事業，包括民生所需要的，不管是水或電的問題，除了讓國營事業有健全的財務體質之外，我們也要考慮到社會上對於物價的衝擊。所以當這個報告出來之後，我們會仔細的去檢視在公司治理的部分，有沒有像台電公司從「產銷人發財」各方面去減省支出、減少虧損，讓整個經營更有效益的方法，所有可以促進台水公司健全發展的方案，我相信水利署和經濟部都會全面性檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：盡快送出來。本席會這樣子問是因為2023年王美花部長的時候，有特別做出一份檢討水價合理性結構報告，裡面有特別提到要增加水費級距的累進費率，增加用水段別，目前是分為四段，未來你們可能會分為幾段？"],["賴次長建信：過去除了加大級距的部分，社會有一些建議……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在分為四段的話是50度以上……"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們對於台水公司所提出來的檢討報告不預設立場，也不用設置框架，如此一來可以讓它客觀的去看到任何改善財務結構的可能。"],["呂委員玉玲：次長，改善財務結構也要顧民生。"],["賴次長建信：當然。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們看到的這四段，51度以上的部分大概都是民生用水，現在你們也有徵收耗水費，單月超過9,000度的大用戶，你們的耗水費是每度增加3塊錢，9,000度的大用戶應該都是產業，中小企業還沒有。未來自來水公司如果送出整個檢討報告表之後，我希望你們可以在級距裡面做調整，一定要在不影響到民生用水的權利範圍內才做調整，如果要增加級距的話，也不要都沒有先跟我們的產業溝通，讓產業有所準備，才不會影響他們整個作業，這樣好不好？"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員非常好的提醒跟建議。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，你會這樣做，不要影響民生。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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抗旱的能力 是不是尤其面對極端氣候如果沒有我們第一時間從過去的八八一路來到前瞻很難因為我們來自地方 我們都知道光一個水利工程那不是簡單一千萬 兩千萬做得起來"},{"start":115.543,"end":123.63,"text":"大家要做一招抽水槍 那就要咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕"},{"start":142.938,"end":171.186,"text":"所以你必須我們要有萬全的準備去幫忙人民如何去防洪如何去抗旱因為政府要作為人民最好的支撐者才能夠讓他們面對這個極端的氣候尤其極端的氣候所造成的都是人民財產安全的損失"},{"start":173.087,"end":189.918,"text":"這是不容有任何折扣的所以我要先問我們看到去年的楷米還有整個颱風不斷的肆虐造成台南農牧漁業損失慘重"},{"start":192.495,"end":220.857,"text":"甚至很多的低窪地區都是淹水超過好多個禮拜都沒有退當下我們去會刊了我們也過了很多的相關計畫可是我們要問的從去年到今年汛期又要到了都處理好了嗎都準備好了嗎 市長"},{"start":223.645,"end":244.484,"text":"謝謝委員的指導治水的工作除了委員之外所有經濟委員會的各位委員都非常的重視非常感謝委員會過去代包括今年度的預算都非常的支持剛剛委員所提出的前瞻計畫也是透過聯席會跟財政委員會聯席會現在已經通過了我們希望加速了"},{"start":245.605,"end":273.247,"text":"來通過這個預算讓所有的工作能趕快開展但是針對於治水的工作特別是黃汛跟各位報告我們沒有最好但是只有更好到目前為止我們除了工程方法導入之外我們積極的跟縣市來合作比如說我也很關心的巴掌溪及水溪的疏浚包括曾文溪的排水的治理因為我們現在已經把下流段慢慢治理好了我們希望說"},{"start":274.268,"end":300.799,"text":"比照三爺溪的經驗把上游的部分因為這個土地也一直在飆漲市長你剛剛講到三爺溪我也要跟你一起把它變成一個很重要的一個指標跟關鍵我想市長當時候三爺溪在淹水的時候當時候蔡英文總統下台南我當時候就跟蔡總統說總統"},{"start":303.679,"end":328.38,"text":"當我們縣的整治關鍵在土地要一次核定署長你當時候聽很清楚嗎你當時是署長所以蔡英文總統很清楚這個關鍵所以回來一次核定對不對署長一次核定之後我們很簡單的土地一起來做處理願意"},{"start":331.031,"end":355.951,"text":"來做架構的我們馬上處理所以有用看用啦所以我們今天的報告第一頁就把當時的精神放在這裡我們希望說一次核定分年實施的部分對於全國及澳大利亞的自理核酸都比照我們過去三年一夕的經驗來落實這樣對整個防災的能力會更好是對啊沒錯市長"},{"start":357.712,"end":385.944,"text":"山岩溪已經有這麼好的經驗了可是我看你後面好像並不是用這樣方向因為我當時候就跟署長拜託說署長我跟總統直接建言總統也答應了也確實我們就用一次核定所以當時候在卡關在鬼打牆的時候那些過程都沒了所以我們山岩溪可以很快的"},{"start":387.011,"end":405.451,"text":"而且是超乎我們原本的預估因為過去每一次都是土地一段一段土地徵收完了再來做治水的工程然後這一段完了我們再換下一段永遠就卡來卡去可是你一次核定不一樣"},{"start":406.61,"end":422.583,"text":"所以水利工程是要跟時間在跑的、在攪拌的跟時間在賽跑的啊所以我一直講像我們曾文熙排水現在終於終於終於終於做到最後段了終於喔!市長我已經讓你輪過了曾文熙排水過去的治理長達十幾年了17年"},{"start":434.673,"end":463.826,"text":"我當民意代表立委17年就爭取了17年最後終於做到最後段了這當中你看浪費了多少時間所以我一直在說的這事情不能算啦而且當你今天沒有做好前面淹水我們做的工程等於都無效 人民無感"},{"start":465.362,"end":485.479,"text":"所以我們一定在水利工程一定要做一致合定這才是最關鍵 如果在潦白水也是一扎一扎慢慢地走然後搞到所有的里長說 你做什麼 你在做什麼 我也在喝水 人民無感"},{"start":488.092,"end":501.365,"text":"所以在整個我們所看到的現在水利工程包括我們所期待的總預算這一次我們水利署的預算也被刪減了9.63億農業部的預算被刪減了2.73億"},{"start":509.504,"end":535.8,"text":"這些其實都是人民急迫需要的 但被刪掉好 那前瞻呢前瞻第五期 也是在空中在背餒我們現在執行是一至四期嘛 對不對而且一至四期都在執行當中了 已經要做結尾了好 那結尾完呢就是第五期"},{"start":537.099,"end":565.845,"text":"像第五期 關我爭取的麻豆安南中西新營新市永康還有所有民眾設置防水閘門板的預算一億一千兩百七十四萬還有仁德區將軍區外僱傭馬沙溝崔坤新的囚罪證幫忙安平 膽固認定 應控善化"},{"start":566.837,"end":572.411,"text":"這都是在我們第五期第五期的市長怎麼辦第一個我們希望"},{"start":577.285,"end":602.098,"text":"相關包括委員會所支持的預算趕快可以順利的通過第五期經濟部大概編了101億元左右那現在在朝野協商中那如果是這個預算趕快通過的話因為第五期的預算我們已經優先的先把它盤點出來有一些都已經先行核列只不過因為配合預算法的關係所以這個部分你們去年都核列了嗎"},{"start":603.238,"end":625.628,"text":"就是我們看到 凱米等等 好幾個颱風進來我們早就和諒了啊都已經跟人家講說 我們要走啊 要走 屋上吊在空中在飛我們當時看了多少 我再次強調安南區 新化區 嘉里 麻豆柳營嘉里 新化 還有六甲甚至是夏營 鹽水北門 七谷"},{"start":636.139,"end":651.966,"text":"關田我們所看到的全部都是我們目前非常重要急迫需要的還有北區 東區 安南區仁德 雪甲白河 南溪這些都等著你們怎麼辦這些都等著你們市長"},{"start":663.888,"end":669.415,"text":"有什麼想法 現在倒在盡頭到尾了中午三個紅台 前瞻第五期也動不了"},{"start":676.841,"end":697.264,"text":"現在要怎麼做?訊息又要到了訊息快到了我們中心期盼立法院院會能趕快通過我們前瞻的第五期預算因為特別預算有它的嚴謹度那公務預算的部分還有逐年不超過原核定的預算額度裡面還有一些方法可以去想"},{"start":697.785,"end":725.194,"text":"那特別預算的部分 這些確實比較麻煩一點但是我們也可能拜託地方政府他可以多先行電款來做發包或許有可能找到解方 但是因為我們中央都知道要做編啦所以地方政府已經都有一點失能了啦你跟他講說他先編 他也不會編啦以前都是我們等候他然後他電付案配合款"},{"start":726.412,"end":754.034,"text":"現在你叫他先編 他就說 那你錢什麼時候要給我所以 市長今天台南37區每個地方都有我們核定的計畫我們都有去現場看過37區都有但是現在面臨的事 到不了所以市長 這個要解決啊前瞻的第五期 還有我們的總預算"},{"start":755.752,"end":784.762,"text":"這沒有辦法折扣而且有些被凍結的我們希望你們趕快拿出來解凍我相信我們所有的委員都不會阻擋這都是人民的小命機要救命的啦拜託大家也拜託我們的經濟部我們真的要努力而且預算這已經現實狀況了被凍在那裡我們下一步怎麼解決"},{"start":787.54,"end":787.941,"text":"謝謝我也知道"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":245,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時43分）謝謝，我們請次長。"],["主席：賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，上一次質詢的時候是署長，一下子，才這兩、三個禮拜之間就變成次長了，第一個問題又是您最在行的，因為從抗旱也好或是水利工程也好，對你來講這是你最專業的，也是一路從基層一直上來，可是專業歸專業，沒錢也沒辦法辦事情，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，這是很敏感的，我們在這段時間看到全國各地慢慢有防洪、抗旱的能力，是因為我們除了本體預算、公務預算提升，第二個部分，我們也有前瞻計畫把整個資源完全投入我們的防洪跟抗旱，才有辦法讓大家感覺到整個國家慢慢的有防洪、抗旱的能力，是不是？"],["賴次長建信：是，感謝委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：尤其面對極端氣候，如果沒有我們從過去的八八，一路來到前瞻，很難，因為我們來自地方，我們都知道，光一個水利工程，那不是簡單1,000萬、2,000萬做得起來的，光是要做一座抽水站就要好幾億，還有滯洪池，我相信這就是對我們防洪很重要的關鍵，再加上要抗旱，因為極端氣候，有時候就下雨下很多，讓你受不了，有時候連一滴雨都沒有，所以我們必須要有萬全的準備，幫忙人民如何去防洪，如何去抗旱，因為政府要作為人民最好的支撐者，才能夠讓他們面對這個極端的氣候，尤其極端氣候所造成的都是人民財產安全的損失，這是不容有任何折扣的。","所以我要先問，我們看到去年的凱米，還有很多颱風不斷的肆虐，造成臺南農牧、漁業損失慘重，甚至很多的低窪地區淹水超過好多個禮拜都沒有退，當下我們也去會勘了，我們也過了很多相關計畫，可是我們要問的是，從去年到今年，汛期又要到了，次長，都處理好了嗎？都準備好了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員的指導，治水的工作，除了委員之外，所有經濟委員會的各位委員都非常的重視，我也非常感謝委員會過去，包括今年度的預算都非常的支持。剛剛委員所提出的前瞻計畫，也是透過跟財政委員會聯席會，現在已經通過了，我們希望加速通過這個預算，讓所有的工作能趕快開展。但是針對治水的工作，特別是防汛，跟各位報告，我們沒有最好，只有更好，到目前為止，我們除了工程方法導入之外，我們還積極的跟縣市來合作，比如說委員很關心的八掌溪、急水溪的疏濬，包括曾文溪排水的治理，因為我們現在已經把下游段慢慢治理好了，我們希望能比照三爺溪的經驗，把上游的部分，因為這個土地也一直在飆漲，包括……"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，你剛剛有講到三爺溪，我也要跟你一起把它變成一個很重要的指標跟關鍵。次長，三爺溪在淹水的時候，蔡英文總統有下臺南，我當時候就跟蔡總統說：總統，我們縣的整治關鍵在土地，要一次核定。署長，你當時候聽得很清楚嘛，你當時候是署長。蔡英文總統很清楚這個關鍵，所以回來一次核定，對不對？署長。"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：一次核定之後，很簡單的，我們土地一起來做處理，願意來做價購的，我們馬上處理，所以會有樣學樣。"],["賴次長建信：所以我們今天的報告第1頁就把當時的精神放在這裡，我們希望一次核定分年實施的部分，讓全國急要段的治理河川都能比照過去三爺溪的經驗來落實，這樣對整個防災的能力會更好。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，沒錯啊！次長，三爺溪已經有這麼好的經驗了，可是我看你後面好像並不是用這樣的方向，因為我當時候就跟署長拜託說：署長，我跟總統直接建言，總統也答應了，也確實我們就用一次核定，所以當時候在卡關、在鬼打牆的時候，那些過程都沒了，所以我們三爺溪可以很快的完成，而且是超乎我們原本的預估，因為過去每一次都是土地一段一段，土地徵收完了再來做治水的工程，然後這一段完了再換下一段，永遠就卡來卡去，可是你一次核定就不一樣。水利工程是在跟時間賽跑，所以我一直講，像曾文溪排水現在終於做到最後段了，終於哦！次長，我跟你提多久了？"],["賴次長建信：曾文溪排水過去的治理長達十幾年。"],["陳委員亭妃：17年，我當民意代表、立委17年，就爭取了17年，最後終於做到最後段了，你看，這當中浪費了多少時間。所以我一直在說，這筆錢不能省啦！而且當你今天沒有做好，前面淹水，我們做的工程等於都無效，人民無感。所以水利工程一定要做一次核定，這才是最關鍵，六塊寮排水也一樣是一段一段慢慢做，然後搞到所有的里長都說：你做這個要做什麼？你再做，我也還在淹水。人民無感！所以我們所看到的是，現在的水利工程，包括我們所期待的總預算，這一次水利署的預算也被刪減了9.63億，農業部的預算被刪減了2.73億，這些其實都是人民急迫需要的，但被刪掉了。","那前瞻呢？前瞻第五期也是在空中飛，我們現在執行是一至四期嘛，而且一至四期都在執行當中，已經要做結尾了。結尾完呢？就是第五期。像第五期，光我爭取的麻豆、安南、中西、新營、新市、永康，還有所有民眾設置防水閘門（板）的預算1億1,274萬，還有仁德區、我的故鄉將軍區的馬沙溝、青鯤鯓抽水站、北門、安平、東區、仁德、永康、善化，這都是在第五期的哦！次長，怎麼辦？"],["賴次長建信：第一個，我們希望相關包括委員會所支持的預算可以趕快順利的通過，第五期經濟部大概編了101億元左右，現在在朝野協商中，如果這個預算趕快通過的話，因為我們已經優先把第五期的預算盤點出來，有一些都已經先行核列，只不過因為配合預算法的關係，所以有一些必須要……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分你們去年都核列了，就是我們看到凱米等等好幾個颱風進來後，你們早就核列了啊！都已經跟人家說我們要做了，結果預算都在空中飛。我們當時候看了多少？我再一次強調，安南區、新化區、佳里、麻豆、柳營、佳里、新化還有六甲，甚至是下營、鹽水、北門、七股、安定、官田，我們所看到的全部都是我們目前非常重要、緊迫需要的，還有北區、東區、安南區、仁德、學甲、白河、楠西，這些都等著你們耶！怎麼辦？這些都等著你們耶！次長有什麼想法？現在到底進度到哪裡了？膠著、協商，之後我們總預算會被刪，前瞻第五期也動不了，現在我們要怎麼做？加上汛期又要到了。"],["賴次長建信：汛期快到了，我們衷心期盼立法院院會能夠趕快通過我們前瞻第五期預算，因為特別預算有它的嚴謹度。公務預算的部分還有逐年不超過原核定的預算額度裡面，還有一些方法可以去想，但特別預算的部分，這一些確實比較麻煩一點，我們也可能會拜託地方政府先行墊款來做發包，或許有可能找到解方，但是因為……"],["陳委員亭妃：我們中央都做得太好了，所以地方政府都已經有點失能了，你跟他說他先編，他也不會編啊！以前都是我們丟給他，然後他墊付案、配合款；現在你叫他先編，他就說：那你錢什麼時候要給我？所以次長，今天臺南37區每個地方都有我們核定的計畫，我們都有去現場看過，37區都有，但是現在面臨的是動不了。所以次長，這個要解決啊！前瞻第五期還有我們的總預算，這沒有辦法折扣的，而且有些被凍結的，我們希望你們趕快拿出來解凍，我相信所有的委員都不會阻擋，這都是人民的生命錢、要救命的啦！拜託大家，也拜託經濟部，我們真的要努力，而且預算被凍在那裡，這已經是現實狀況了，我們下一步怎麼解決？謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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去處在哪裡 在那環境嘛不是人來不來的問題 根本還是環境的問題你去看一個就好 我今天就舉一個全球金融中心的指數 台北的排行從2016年21名 2020年42名到了2022年變成73名他評估的指標是什麼 人才 環境 基礎建設 聲譽等等"},{"start":106.936,"end":116.683,"text":"結果我們的資本實力越來越強但是我們的環境卻越來越差主委你怎麼看在這種情況底下你如何形成一個資產管理中心我想謝謝委員剛剛提供這些訊息我們也有去"},{"start":123.004,"end":145.567,"text":"去了解一下因為我們評比有各式各樣的評比這個評比呢給我們一個比較我們比較比較嚴厲的對但是他其中但能不能接受他還不能接受啊不太服氣因為這部分我不覺得我們我們台灣在整個整個亞太的金融市場地位我們從各種指標就從委員剛剛看到這些東西但是我覺得我們要"},{"start":147.069,"end":161.181,"text":"這個要努力的向國際去說明這件事情台灣的一些現況包括這些數字我們也會去了解一下這些指標的背後是不是有些地方比如說是因為資訊提供的問題或是一些指標我們可以來做一個揭露"},{"start":161.781,"end":175.536,"text":"主委這個說明當然要持續性的但是是不是認真的面對是不是我們基本面有所欠缺的問題這才是關鍵因為現實上來說有些問題我們真的是要去想一想為什麼同樣的這個ETF在國外的這個收費標準跟國內"},{"start":180.822,"end":197.395,"text":"就相差很多我講一個數字給你聽在去年高股息的ETF全民封ETF我們的這種費用率是座落在0.42%到1.37%之間相對國外的總費用率幾乎都座落在0.1%以下"},{"start":199.137,"end":210.887,"text":"0.1下我們的低標都比人家高標高了好幾倍所以說這種情況下我們的環境當中是不是要去檢討去思考這個問題當然也有些業者他自我反省像原大的話0050他就0.355降到0.141"},{"start":215.111,"end":237.804,"text":"那這會影響到什麼影響到我們的這個有關於這個勞保基金要不要購買ETF的一個問題關鍵所以你要如何把他吸引到這個IPO市場當中這都是關鍵啊主委有沒有覺得是這個問題然後你跟他推動了TISA你也是從這邊做切入點啊你的報告當中也講要讓他讓利他本該就讓利了"},{"start":241.046,"end":268.844,"text":"他獲利太多了啦對不對主委請說其實其實我剛剛提到就是說我們在這個報告裡也提到一個其實我從去年開始不管我在高雄專區或是在很多跟金融業在討論這些未來市場發展的會議上都跟他提到金融業必須要面對我們市場要持續成長的這個這個這個目標但這個成長的結果呢不應該只有比如公司跟股東來做主要的分配事實上公司跟股東在成長"},{"start":270.925,"end":297.56,"text":"就剛剛委員講的那個方向就是我們在努力的我們也希望說隨著市場的擴大那這個部分能夠呼應一下能夠就讓利對我想這部分也是我們應該要所以讓利不是只有在TESA的部分而已嘛對不對所以很多政經業者他自己思考這個問題啦我講實在話我們收費過高對投資人不夠友善我們人才的養成其實薪資過低以至於我們有些金融人才都還停留在新加坡或停留在這個香港"},{"start":298.32,"end":309.962,"text":"為什麼這些人不回來如果這些人可以回來他也可以帶客戶回來啊你的資產管理中心就可以實現啊當然當然這就是基本面的問題嘛他的評鑑當中也有人才的問題為什麼人才不夠原因在哪裡"},{"start":311.377,"end":336.913,"text":"你要留財之前要先引財引財之前要先引人才回來嘛這基本問題我們要去面對這個問題好就拉回來您再提的有關於這一個這個財務管理資產管理也就是說這個資產管理業到底是接近於投信投估業還是什麼沒有一個清楚的定義就這兩邊當中的連結度箭頭的連結度私人銀行是連結到財務管理能不能連結到這個"},{"start":338.594,"end":361.971,"text":"資產管理那高資產是不是連結到財富管理高資產算不算資產管理這張圖當中看不出來那個連結性也就是看不出來所謂的定義是什麼當定義不清楚的話大家就很模糊當模糊的情況底下又要怎麼推廣我們有沒有可能再修改這個投信投顧業來清楚的定義所謂的所謂資產管理業是什麼"},{"start":362.892,"end":380.702,"text":"有沒有可能這個跟委員報告其實每個國家它法制的結構很不同其實我在開始了解這個議題的時候發覺其實台灣沒有所謂一個執照叫做資產管理業所以比較好的應對的產業就是我們的投信業那再來還有我們的投顧業"},{"start":381.963,"end":410.752,"text":"但是實際上後來發現說我們在國外真的對資產管理的概念也不限於只有我們的投信跟投顧他還做很多其他的內容譬如說包括我們的創投跟我們的PE也都是一個那我們需不需要再把它精準定義一下或者需要修改一些相關的法制所以我們現在的定義就是我們用一個更廣泛的資產管理的範圍把我們過去已經很有基礎的財富管理業務跟結合我們狹義的所謂資產管理我們現在的方式AMC也是資產管理啊"},{"start":411.332,"end":434.298,"text":"那個不一樣那個不一樣名詞上看起來就相同啊那個名稱因為我們過去用了一個資產管理到底我們是什麼樣的資產管理搞不清楚嘛部長用你的智慧來定義一下啦好不好定義清楚一下該修法要修法嘛因為新的政策你需要在法制上落實嘛你一來就銜接現有的法制不然你就是在重新創造一個法制嘛不是嗎"},{"start":434.898,"end":461.556,"text":"當然我們現在用你要推動這個政策問題要變成這個法制的問題跟基本面的問題啊不是嗎剛剛委員講的很好幾件事我們都非常認同第一個我們一定要讓人才有一個好的環境再來就是我們交易應該有一個很好的環境這些都是一個那個先決的要件那再來就是說我們對於法規剛剛那個範圍其實我們現在採取的就是用實務來定義這樣的一個範疇所以我們就結合了剛才兩大塊所以剛剛這部分我覺得我們未來也會隨著這個東西的改變做一些"},{"start":464.478,"end":487.429,"text":"變化就像我們上次我們在報告有提到我們這次有開放外部資產管理服務業這個就是一個慢慢去對接國際的一個資產管理的概念你的眼神現在說我都可以理解但是我還跟你講說是基本面的問題要怎麼定義會更清楚我還在跟你談一個基本面的部分像之前啊這本席一直跟這個財務財政部門在argue的部分的這個印花稅的問題財政部過往就是要修這個這個所謂的這個重複課稅的這個稅務"},{"start":493.612,"end":515.082,"text":"印花稅最大的受害者就是金融業嘛所以你理解吧你看113年繳了多少錢115億佔了61%這最大的受害者啊那你在稅制的環境當中你要面對改革啊不是嗎當整個國有資金來的時候你就覺得對這些人不公平嘛對金融業不公平嘛我說這基本面的問題我們總是要面對嘛"},{"start":516.298,"end":536.739,"text":"主委 印花稅站在你主管的金融業當中你要有一個基本的看法跟態度出來或一個說明或要求一個政策建議出來那個財政部那個不是建議啦說地方政府都反對哪個地方政府會贊成把我稅金拿走哪個地方政府會贊成問題是這個稅制科的合不合理嘛公不公平嘛 不是嗎 主委請說"},{"start":537.6,"end":555.72,"text":"我想站在金融主管機關對稅的看法會跟財政部跟可能地方政府會有不一樣的看法那我們當然過去我們也接到很多業者的反應我們也持續的向我們的那個租稅主政單位我們去做這個反應當然尤其我們要推動國際資金的競爭的時候"},{"start":557.862,"end":572.317,"text":"當我們有一些比較特別的碎製產生劣勢的時候我們還是會持續的溝通也能夠希望剛剛像委員講我們的環境能夠更具有競爭力對啊這個都是我今天跟你討論的其實都是在討論基本面的問題啦"},{"start":573.198,"end":599.509,"text":"從人才、環境還有稅制的問題還有包括人才的養成的部分你知道現階段的中研院在南部有設立一個南部院區最近的經濟部、生技辦公室南部也會有一個辦公室諸多的學術機構或研發機構都設在南部那你現在資產管理專區要把它地區化"},{"start":600.696,"end":618.959,"text":"問題你很多金融人才全部的這個訓練機構都集中在台北啊其他都是一個辦公室聯絡而已啊沒有真正的想去養成當區的人才啊我就舉一個例子來說你現在要把專區設在地方專區設在高雄在高雄有嗎"},{"start":619.6,"end":648.379,"text":"高雄或許沒有一個比較適合的空間確定政府所謂的設立專區幾乎都是在台南為主就高鐵旁邊類似像中研院這樣的南部分我們金融研訓院有沒有可能設立的可能金融研訓院在高雄有辦事處也有查過了台中也有其實它那個還蠻大的再來就是我們這次有一個我們三大人才訓練基地一個是研訓院一個就是中山的國際金融學院對還有就是我們政大的國際金融學院這三個"},{"start":649.48,"end":670.498,"text":"在大學底下的但是我們也跟他做密切他們也已經答應要開設這些人才培育班但是要有一個類似像中研院南分院的一個規模而且是南區分院而不是分院的一個角色我們會朝這個來講怎麼擴大人才的培育面來去強化要有一個地域性的考量方便性的考量"},{"start":671.858,"end":688.905,"text":"確實因為這次的做法也希望能夠平衡也希望未來各個比如說更有潛力的其他縣市也能來參與這樣的一個計畫我們就會去平衡這個人才的培育量當你有一些金融機構金融單位要下放在地方的時候的投資你就應該考慮有一些人才的養成也應該要在地化的可能"},{"start":689.565,"end":715.344,"text":"所以說我就說你就乾脆思考從一個中研院的這個南分院的一個架構當中來思考金融延續院是不是可以用這種方式來比照辦理的模式來做思維這我們可以跟他們來討論一下比如南區他們在高雄那個的一些功能還有就是我們跟中山來討論來強化看怎麼樣替代達到大家的中山在高雄嘛你剛剛說也是高雄嘛本席一直強調台南你都沒有聽到重點"},{"start":716.405,"end":728.644,"text":"沒有 我知道就是南部 樓部因為剛才委員提到專區啦所以我想平衡南北我們會來努力啦對啊 高鐵有機會去看一下那邊土地空間比較大啦好不好不要說我還可以跟台南市政府建議啦OK 好不好人才養成很重要謝謝請主委慎重思考謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時50分）有請彭主委。"],["主席：好，彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早安。"],["郭委員國文：主委，你回答之前，我先回應一下剛剛財政部次長那個部分，其實就回答精準一點，「賴17條」……其實早在他們資產處理之前，伊藤忠資產要處理的時候，它早在之前就已經對外放出風聲了，時機點根本完全不對嘛！","主委來，請教一下，你看到本國金融環境的部分，我們來探討一下。我們的資產管理在這20年來，總資產的部分已經高達73兆，也就是多了將近50兆，然後不論是OBU的資產也好，或本國銀行的淨利也好，或者是國外的淨利也好，臺股的市值也好，臺灣的GDP也好，都呈現了倍增的現象，而且是數倍的倍增喔！我覺得對照於今天央行的報告當中的第一部分就講我們的超額儲蓄，反映了一個問題，臺灣現在已經呈現了所謂的閒置資本過剩的現象，當然閒置資本過剩的情況底下，你又要留財又要引資回來，這重點其實在哪裡？在去處嘛！關鍵在去處，去處在哪裡？在環境嘛！而不是人來不來的問題，根本是環境的問題，你去看就好，我今天就舉一個，全球金融中心的指數，臺北的排行從2016年21名，2020年42名，到了2022年變73名，它評估的指標是什麼？人才、環境、基礎建設、生育等等，結果我們的資本實力越來越強，但是我們的環境卻越來越差，主委，你怎麼看？在這種情況底下，你如何形成一個資產管理中心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員剛才提供這些訊息，我們也有去了解一下，因為我們有各式各樣的評比，這個評比給我們一個比較……"],["郭委員國文：嚴厲的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，但是它其中……"],["郭委員國文：但能不能接受？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不太能接受啊！"],["郭委員國文：不太服氣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我不覺得我們臺灣在整個亞太的金融市場地位，我們從各種指標，就從委員剛才看到這些東西……但是我覺得我們要努力地向國際去說明這件事情、臺灣的一些現況，包括這些數字，我們也會去了解一下這些指標的背後是不是有些地方，比如說是因為資訊提供的問題或是一些指標，我們可以來做一個揭露……"],["郭委員國文：主委，這個說明當然要持續性的，但是認真地面對我們基本面有所欠缺的問題才是關鍵啦！因為現實上來說，有些問題我們真的是要去想一想，為什麼同樣的ETF，在國外的收費標準跟國內就相差很多欸！我講一個數字給你聽啦，在去年高股息的ETF，全民瘋ETF，我們的總費用率是坐落在0.42%到1.37%之間，相對國外的總費用率幾乎都坐落0.1%以下，我們的低標都比人家的高標高了好幾倍。所以這種情況下，在我們的環境當中是不是要去檢討、去思考這個問題？當然有些業者它自我反省，像元大的部分，0050，它就0.355%降到0.141%。這會影響到什麼？影響到勞保基金要不要購買ETF的問題，關鍵啊！所以你要如何把它吸引到IPO市場當中，這都是關鍵啊！主委，有沒有覺得是這個問題？然後你對它推動了TISA，你也去從這邊做切入點啊！你的報告當中也講了要讓它讓利，它本就該讓利了，它獲利太多了啦，對不對？主委，請說。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員剛才提到的，我們在這個報告裡也提到一個，其實我從去年開始，不管我在高雄專區，或是在很多跟金融業在討論這些未來市場發展的會議上都提到，金融業必須要面對我們市場要持續成長的這個目標，但成長的結果不應該只有比如公司跟股東來做主要的分配。所以剛剛委員提到就是說……"],["郭委員國文：事實上就公司跟股東在成長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，剛剛委員講的那個方向就是我們在努力的，我們也希望隨著市場的擴大，這個部分能夠呼應一下，能夠就讓利，對，我想這部分也是我們應該要……"],["郭委員國文：所以讓利不是只有在TISA的部分而已嘛！對不對？所以很多證券業者自己要思考這個問題啦，我講實在話，我們收費過高、對投資人不夠友善，我們的人才養成其實薪資過低，以致於我們有些金融人才都還停留在新加坡或停留在香港。為什麼這些人不回來？如果這些人可以回來，他也可以帶客戶回來啊，你的資產管理中心就可以實現啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然。"],["郭委員國文：這就是基本面的問題嘛！它的評鑑當中也有人才的問題，為什麼人才不夠，原因在哪裡？你要留財之前要先引財，引財之前要先引人才回來嘛！就基本面，我們要去面對這個問題。好，就拉回來你提的有關於財富管理、資產管理，資產管理業到底是接近於投信投顧業還是什麼？沒有一個清楚的定義，就這兩邊當中的連結度、箭頭的連結度，私人銀行是連結到財富管理，能不能連結到資產管理？好，高資產是不是連結到財富管理？高資產算不算資產管理？這張圖當中看不出那個連結性，也就是看不出來所謂的定義是什麼，當定義不清楚的話，大家就很模糊，當模糊的情況底下又要怎麼推廣？我們有沒有可能再修改投信投顧業，來清楚定義所謂的資產管理業是什麼，有沒有可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實每個國家法制的結構很不同，其實我在開始了解這個議題的時候，發覺其實臺灣沒有所謂一個執照叫做資產管理業嘛！所以比較好的應對產業就是我們的投信業，再來還有我們的投顧業，但是實際上我後來發現說在國外真的對資產管理的概念也不限於只有投信跟投顧，它還做很多其他的內容……"],["郭委員國文：是，沒有錯，類似、接近嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說包括我們的創投跟我們的PE也都是一個……"],["郭委員國文：那我們需不需要再把它精準定義一下，或者需要修改一些相關的法制？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們現在的定義就是我們用一個更廣泛的資產管理的範圍，把我們過去已經很有基礎的財富管理業務結合狹義的所謂資產管理，我們現在……"],["郭委員國文：AMC也是資產管理啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個不一樣。"],["郭委員國文：可是名詞上看起來就相同啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那個名稱……因為我們過去用了一個資產管理，所以我們在推動的時候……"],["郭委員國文：對啊！到底我們是什麼樣的資產管理？搞不清楚嘛！部長，用你的智慧來定義一下啦！好不好？定義清楚一下，該修法就修法嘛！因為新的政策，你需要在法制上落實嘛！你一來就銜接現有法制，不然你就是再重新創造一個法制嘛！不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們現在用……"],["郭委員國文：你要推動這個政策問題，要面臨法制跟基本面的問題啊，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員講得很好，幾件事情我都非常認同，第一個，我們一定要讓人才有一個好的環境；接著，我們交易應該有一個很好的環境，這些都是先決的要件；再來，我們對於法規，剛剛那個範圍，其實我們現在採取就是用實務來定義這樣的一個範疇，所以我們就結合了剛才兩大塊。所以剛剛這部分，我覺得我們未來也會隨著這個東西的改變做一些變化，就像我們在報告有提到我們這次有開放外部資產管理服務業，這個就是一個慢慢去對接國際的資產管理的概念。"],["郭委員國文：衍生性來說我都可以理解，但是我還在跟你講基本面的問題要怎麼定義會更清楚，我還在跟你談一個基本面的部分啦！像之前本席一直跟財政部argue的印花稅的問題，財政部過往就是要修所謂重複課稅的稅目，印花稅最大的受害者就是金融業嘛！這你理解吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：你看113年繳多少？115億，占了61%，它就是最大的受害者啊，你在稅制的環境當中，你也要面對改革啊，不是嗎？當整個國外資金來，你就覺得對這些不公平嘛！對金融業不公平嘛！我是說基本面的問題，我們總是要面對嘛！主委，印花稅，站在你主管的金融業當中，你要有一個基本的看法跟態度出來，或一個說明或要求一個政策建議出來；財政部那個不是建議啦，它說地方政府都反對，但哪個地方政府會贊成？把我稅金拿走，哪個地方政府會贊成？問題是這個稅制課得合不合理、公不公平嘛！不是嗎？主委請說，是不是應該改？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想站在金融主管機關對稅的看法，可能跟財政部以及地方政府會有不一樣的看法啦！當然過去我們也接到很多業者的反映，我們也持續地向租稅主政單位去做反映，尤其我們要推動國際資金的競爭的時候，當我們有一些比較特別的稅制產生劣勢的時候，我們還是會持續地溝通，也希望像剛才委員講的，我們的環境能夠更具有競爭力。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，這都是我今天跟你討論的，其實都是在討論基本面的問題啦！從人才、環境還有稅制的問題，還有包括人才養成的部分。你知道現階段的中研院，在南部有設立一個南部院區，最近的經濟部生技辦公室，南部也會有一個辦公室，諸多學術機構或研發機構都設在南部，你現在資產管理專區要地區化，問題是很多金融人才訓練機構全部都集中在臺中、臺北，其他都只有一個聯絡辦公室而已，沒有真正想去養成當區的人才啊！我就舉一個例子來說，你現在要把地方專區設在高雄，但是高雄有嗎？高雄或許沒有一個比較適合的空間，最近政府所謂設立專區幾乎都是在臺南為主，就是在高鐵旁邊，尤其類似像中研院這樣的南部院區，金融研訓院有沒有設立的可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金融研訓院在高雄有……"],["郭委員國文：辦事處而已，我查過了，臺中也有，就只有……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實它那邊還滿大的；再來就是我們這次有三大人才訓練基地，一個是研訓院，一個就是中山的國際金融學院，還有就是政大的國際金融學院等這三個。"],["郭委員國文：那是附屬在大學底下的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，但是我們也跟它密切做……它們也已經答應要開設這些人才培育班，我想這部分……"],["郭委員國文：但是要有一個類似像中研院南部院區的規模，而且是南區院區，而不是分院的角色喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會朝怎麼擴大人才的培育面來強化。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！要有地域性、方便性的考量嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，因為這次的作法希望能夠平衡，也希望未來各個比如說更有潛力的其他縣市也能來參與這樣一個計畫，我們會去平衡人才培育。"],["郭委員國文：當你有一些金融機構、金融單位要下放在地方的同時，就應該考慮一些人才的養成要在地化的可能，所以我是說你就乾脆從中研院南部院區的架構當中思考，金融研訓院是不是可以比照這種模式辦理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們可以跟他們來討論一下，比如南區他們在高雄的一些功能，還有就是我們跟中山來討論強化，看怎麼樣替代達到……"],["郭委員國文：中山在高雄嘛！你剛剛說的是高雄嘛！本席一直強調臺南，你都沒有聽到重點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我知道，就是南部的部分，因為剛才委員提到專區啦！所以平衡南北，我們會來努力啦！"],["郭委員國文：對啦，高鐵有機會去看一下，那邊土地空間比較大啦！好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：必要的時候，我還可以跟臺南市政府建議啦！OK？好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：人才養成很重要，請主委慎重思考，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝國文委員。","接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 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請金管會彭主委早安"},{"start":25.429,"end":42.838,"text":"我相信GFCI的指數排名你看到了我們越來越差了2024年的9月排到第73名最好的一年是2011年馬政府時代的19名"},{"start":47.761,"end":62.251,"text":"這個你自己要推這個亞洲資產管理中心啊你自己給自己訂個KPI吧我們就講這個KPI你還不要講一下明年的就今年的九月一年以後我們這個能不能提升提升實名"},{"start":63.112,"end":88.011,"text":"我想就是跟委員報告一下我覺得我很有信心這一定會止跌回升這因為為什麼就實際上我們在做這件事情在某種程度是增加我們的整個國際金融中心的這些不管是他的能夠開始啟動沒有你不要跟我講教科書亞洲台灣要設在高雄設亞洲資產管理中心啟動沒有"},{"start":88.551,"end":115.845,"text":"那是專區是我們計畫其中的一個那這部分呢我們應該是明天的話如果說我們快的話按照行政程序我們當然明天會發布這個事辦原則就宣告4月就可以開始來申請4月就可以申請OSU OSU OAU是不是就是主要是OBUOBU就三個三個嘛沒有私人銀行Bank Insurance跟Security嘛對對對主要是私人銀行"},{"start":121.008,"end":143.18,"text":"海外的帳戶是嗎?對,就是OBU的部分會加上我們的OSUOSU勒?OSU勒?OSU勒?一樣都有?都有!明天開始申請明天應該快的話,我們行政審議明天就會公告那我們這個如果可以的話,就是大概四月就可以開放四月就到了!"},{"start":143.84,"end":148.585,"text":"所以明天公佈辦法明天開始申請我們就請金融業者符合規定的他就可以提出申請"},{"start":159.858,"end":184.175,"text":"那申請的話最快看他們自己籌備的什麼規定他現在有不同因為我們這次開放有大概三四個業態一個就是銀行的話他必須要第一個他有跟地方政府簽MOU這是一個要件因為他要到地方專區再來他要取得我們私人銀行的執照那再來我們也開放了這個保險還有證券投信什麼人可以申請"},{"start":185.395,"end":202.947,"text":"要有一定的條件才可以就是普通人可不可以申請不行他要吻合這個要件海外在海外的帳戶可不可以申請那就是如果他是這家銀行他已經有申請這個業務他是我們OBU的客戶那當然就會包含在這次的事辦範圍裡面"},{"start":204.847,"end":225.12,"text":"主委你要小心一點喔最早成立亞太台灣變成亞太營運中心是李登輝前總統時代那時候中國大陸還沒起來所以他主要希望把經貿國際化強化台灣的安全效果也不錯後來陳水扁當總統了"},{"start":227.762,"end":236.276,"text":"這個取消掉就沒有了那時候的背景是這個樣子那你現在呢我們來看喔現在來講的話外界會擔心因為有圈人啊"},{"start":239.434,"end":258.951,"text":"有好幾本護照有些人OBU一堆很簡單的結果你現在是需要把外面的錢進來結果人家已經講了好幾個專家都講了說本主委啊你不要投機不找十三十八米喔你會讓台灣的富豪"},{"start":260.188,"end":284.214,"text":"把錢匯出去了 透過你這裡面的OVU OSU你怎麼辦我們在整個制度設計我們這次主要是英鎊的部分我們也看到了其實國內很多的財富因為你提了人家有錢人就那些護老就成立家族辦公室他們家族就成立辦公室配合你的政策準備把錢弄出去"},{"start":285.674,"end":312.611,"text":"我們如果他的家族辦公室成立在國內那個方向剛好顛倒他會把錢進到台灣來反而是我們現階段也許很多的國人在海外成立家族辦公室我們就希望透過這個方式用英鎊的方式吸引他回來由我們的金融服務業團隊來做這件事情你還沒有回答我剛才第一個問題你總是要給自己KPI吧你今天的9月可以提升到幾名提升幾名"},{"start":313.792,"end":328.857,"text":"那不好意思我剛才講到一半剛好就是因為你講一些江蘇講太多了我沒時間聽你講因為主要是這個評比是以城市為主那我們這個是整個國家在推動我想一定對比如說城市是會有影響的像比如說"},{"start":329.577,"end":357.018,"text":"當然有影響一個國家有好幾個城市可以參與評比這是以台北市為主但我想說這部分也可以做一個窗口來指標我是覺得說假設我們在推動這個指標我覺得一開始我們才推動幾個月我覺得這種訊息釋放還有很多它裡面的指標一定會有一些影響我覺得一開始接下來看到一定會止跌回升但是接下來應該在一開始的時候我覺得"},{"start":358.3,"end":372.677,"text":"我給自己一個比較保守的想法就是說我們希望我們推動這個兩年至少能夠提升10到20名左右兩年提升10到20名你企圖心也太少了你不就說我要提升到"},{"start":373.277,"end":392.645,"text":"我要提升到蔡英文剛開始接的時候27名那是我們未來就是假設每年都能夠往前提升這個我們假設每年都能夠往前提升我們這樣努力的話我想再過幾年之後我想我們就會回到我們應該該有的被認可的我們去財政部的市長一起來好嗎那個時間暫停一下"},{"start":404.83,"end":410.014,"text":"處長啊OVU OSU OIU營業稅 營所稅 印花稅都不要交了"},{"start":414.918,"end":442.537,"text":"現在是免稅啊對啊你現在按照我們的法律規定就是免稅啊這樣你有沒有算過說你這水都不要了 其他的人但是他對境內交易這一部分還是要按照對啊 境內還是要境外交易你算過沒有 我稅少收了 但是我賺到什麼"},{"start":445.855,"end":463.547,"text":"賺到什麼基本上因為他就這個業者來講他還是有會有新的獲利還有獲利的來源你沒有回答問題啊我的意思是我們就省掉我們就少收了稅但是他總是要給我們什麼我們給他免稅他給我什麼你告訴我我們"},{"start":467.274,"end":485.908,"text":"給他免稅但是就這個業者來他當然就是就跟境外交易這一部分根據目前的規定你講不清楚來主委來講主委來講來來來免稅主委他帶給我們什麼可以讓他給他免稅這個錢很多勒銀索稅一十八勒"},{"start":486.528,"end":511.862,"text":"但是就業者來講他還是,他雖然是可以使用免稅但是還是要適用我們最低稅負還是要課稅啊第二個他對國內的交易這部分還是要按照國內的這個相關稅法來課稅所以基本上他不會完全免掉啦好,這個你再,我就來同時問一下那個主委請回"},{"start":514.64,"end":518.722,"text":"這次的緬甸、泰國的地震對銀行的影響113年,去年滬緬甸326件,總共有87億美金新南向好像是政府鼓勵的一個偵測"},{"start":538.655,"end":563.587,"text":"就工股來講我們在緬甸的都只有辦事處換句話說它是沒有實際的營業行為主委 主委 不好意思 又起來了但是民營的行庫它是會有分行的總部選多少你知道嗎市長你知道嗎主委請問你緬甸泰國的地震總部選多少"},{"start":565.216,"end":569.96,"text":"報委員,緬甸的曝險是41.42億,然後我們泰國的...講台幣齁,台幣對,這個是台幣,然後那個泰國的曝險是1280億1281億1281億對,台幣我已經...也沒救了"},{"start":587.052,"end":604.113,"text":"目前我們所接到的訊息就是他們分行的人員還有建築物一切都還因為大家都說緬甸是茂興的新樂園我就請教主委上市公司你知道上市公司有幾家在緬甸"},{"start":606.619,"end":620.623,"text":"這個我現在沒有這個數據我告訴你 因為時間到了我待會會把這個數據再提供給委員我再告訴你數字132家我們上市公司全部多少家總共上市櫃將近1039再十幾趴我們現在像跑去一個地震影響很大"},{"start":634.264,"end":656.367,"text":"對阿 那泰國本來就很多我們的產業會移到那邊去這想很大了 你們要注意喔我們剛剛密切呼籲就像我們剛才銀行一發生以後我們銀行就立刻就啟動這個我們去調查這個 曝險的這個情況包括他們所有的航設現在情況 人員如何我們都立刻就啟動了這樣的一個措施阿是不是人員平安 損失不大"},{"start":657.027,"end":679.761,"text":"他剛才講過就是我們所有的航車現在都是算是就是安全的狀態好 最後一題我請教次長 財政部的次長那個101的大股東易填忠持股31%賣出一半給范工股范工股現在佔70號牌你了解一下他為什麼要撤離啊易填忠為什麼要撤離台灣"},{"start":682.066,"end":708.081,"text":"他為什麼賣股啦?這是基於他自己的投資要轉換的考量啦所以他當時是希望就是說能夠處分他在台灣的一些資產外資為什麼不賣給外資還賣給本國銀行?那是什麼?其實這個是公司自己的範圍啦那基本上他在101他過去的獲利其實都相當不錯啦"},{"start":709.102,"end":738.057,"text":"我的解讀啦這是在我的解讀啦這是在賴氏失調之後做的決定要慢慢撤出台灣地緣政治 其實亞太資產管理中心不管什麼中心地緣政治 台灣的政治安定非常重要這一點 老實說他看到了台灣的政治開始不安定會怕一斤十就是這樣"},{"start":739.455,"end":744.366,"text":"就我們了解他是基於這個他資產配置重新調整的一個考量"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時37分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請金管會彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，早安。"],["賴委員士葆：你早。我相信GFCI指數的排名，你看到了嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，看到了。"],["賴委員士葆：我們愈來愈差了！2024年9月排到第73名，最好的一年是2010年、馬政府時代的第19名，你自己要推亞洲資產管理中心，要給自己訂個KPI吧！我們就講這個KPI，你要不要講一下？今年9月，即一年以後，我們能不能提升10名？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我很有信心，這一定會止跌回升，為什麼？實際上，我們在做這件事情某種程度是增加我們整個國際金融中心的，不管是能見度……"],["賴委員士葆：開始啟動沒有？你不要跟我講教科書……臺灣要在高雄設亞洲資產管理中心，啟動沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是專區，是我們計畫其中的一個。這部分如果快的話，按照行政程序，我們大概明天會發布試辦原則，這就宣告了4月就可以開始來申請……"],["賴委員士葆：4月就可以申請OSU、OIU，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們籌備完畢……主要是OBU，還有私人銀行。"],["賴委員士葆：這三個嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有！私人銀行……"],["賴委員士葆：banking、insurance跟securities，是嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，主要是私人銀行的OBU。"],["賴委員士葆：海外的帳戶，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就OBU的部分，會加上我們的OSU、OIU。"],["賴委員士葆：OBU……"],["彭主任委員金隆：OIU、OSU都有。"],["賴委員士葆：OSU呢？一樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：都有。然後有這個試辦辦法裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：明天開始申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該快的話，我們的行政程序明天就會公告，如果可以的話，大概4月就可以開放……"],["賴委員士葆：4月就到了！明天就4月了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以這兩天我們那個辦法就會公布了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以明天公布辦法、明天開始申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們就請符合規定的金融業者就可以提出申請。"],["賴委員士葆：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：申請的話，最快看他們自己籌備的……"],["賴委員士葆：符合什麼規定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它現在有不同，因為我們這次大概有開放三、四個業態，一個就是銀行，第一，必須要有跟地方政府簽MOU，這是一個要件，因為它要到地方專區；再來，它要取得我們私人銀行的執照；另外我們也開放了保險，還有證券、投信。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼人可以申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：要有一定的條件才可以。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，普通人可不可以申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不行，它要吻合這個要件。"],["賴委員士葆：海外，比如在海外的帳戶可不可以申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果它是這家銀行，而它已經有申請這個業務，是我們OBU的客戶，當然就會包含在這次的試辦範圍裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，你要小心一點喔！最早說臺灣要成立亞太營運中心是李登輝前總統時代，那時候中國大陸還沒起來，所以他主要希望把經貿國際化、強化臺灣的安全，效果也不錯，後來陳水扁當總統整個取消掉、就沒有了，那時候的背景是這個樣子，但現在呢？我們來看，以現在來講，外界會擔心，因為有錢人有好幾本護照，有錢人OBU一堆很簡單，結果你現在是希望把外面的錢弄進來，結果人家已經講了、好幾個專家都講了，說彭主委，你不要「偷雞不著蝕把米」，你會讓臺灣的富豪把錢匯出去了，透過你這裡面的OBU把錢匯出去，你怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個委員放心，我們這次在整個制度設計上主要是inbound的部分，我們是希望、我們也看到了，其實國人很多的財富……"],["賴委員士葆：因為你提了，人家有錢人、那些富豪就成立家族辦公室，他們家族就成立辦公室，配合你的政策，怎麼樣把錢弄出去。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果他的家族辦公室成立在國內，方向剛好顛倒，他會把錢進到臺灣來，反而是現階段也許很多的國人在海外成立家族辦公室，我們就希望透過這個方式，用inbound的方式吸引他回來，由我們金融服務業的團隊來做這件事情。"],["賴委員士葆：你還沒有回答我剛才第一個問題，你總是要給自己KPI吧！今年的9月你可以提升到幾名？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不好意思，我剛才講到一半剛好就是……"],["賴委員士葆：因為你講太多了，我沒時間聽你講。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這個評比主要是以城市為主，我們這部分是整個國家在推動，一定對城市是會有影響的，像比如說……"],["賴委員士葆：當然有影響啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，一個國家有好幾個城市可以參與評比，這是以臺北市為主，但我想這部分也可以做一個窗口為指標，假設我們推動這個指標，一開始才推動幾個月，這種訊息釋放，還有很多裡面的指標，一定會有一些影響，接下來看到一定會止跌回升。但是應該在一開始的時候，我給自己一個比較保守的想法，就是說，我們希望推動兩年，至少能夠提升10到20名左右。"],["賴委員士葆：好，兩年提升10到20名，你企圖心也太小了，應該說你要提升到蔡英文剛開始接的時候27名，比較差不多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是我們未來……假設每年都能夠……"],["賴委員士葆：講這麼保守。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們假設每年都能夠往前提升，以這樣努力的話，我想再過幾年之後，我們就會回到我們該有的、被認可的地位。"],["賴委員士葆：我們請財政部的次長一起來，好嗎？時間暫停一下。"],["主席：時間暫停，請次長。"],["賴委員士葆：次長好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：OBU、OSU、OIU，營業稅、營所稅、印花稅都不要交，對吧？"],["阮次長清華：現在是免稅啊！"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！"],["阮次長清華：境外交易那一部分是免稅。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！現在按照我們的法律規定就是免稅。"],["阮次長清華：是啊！"],["賴委員士葆：這樣你有沒有算過到底是課到什麼？稅都不要了，其他的呢？"],["阮次長清華：但是它對境內交易這一部分還是要按照目前的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，境內還是要，但境外交易這個東西你算過沒有？稅少收了，但是你賺到什麼？請問你賺到什麼？"],["阮次長清華：基本上因為就這個業者來講，它還是會有新的獲利，有獲利的來源。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答問題啊！"],["阮次長清華：我的意思是……"],["賴委員士葆：我們就省掉、少收了稅，但是它總是要給我們什麼嘛！我們給它免稅，它給我什麼？你告訴我。"],["阮次長清華：我們給它免稅，但是業者當然就境外交易這一部分，根據目前的規定……"],["賴委員士葆：你講不清楚，主委來講、主委來講，來、來、來！主委，它帶給我們什麼，所以可以讓它免稅？這個錢很多耶！營所稅20%。"],["阮次長清華：但是就業者來講，它雖然可以適用免稅，但是還是要適用最低稅負，還是要課稅。第二個，它對國內交易這一部分還是要按照國內的相關稅法來課稅，基本上它不會完全免掉啦！"],["賴委員士葆：OBU、OSU都是境外。好，你在，我就同時問一下，主委請回。次長，這次緬甸、泰國的地震對銀行的影響？去（113）年赴緬甸326件，總共有87億美金，新南向現在是政府鼓勵的政策。"],["阮次長清華：就公股來講，我們在緬甸都只有辦事處，換句話說，它沒有實際的營業行為，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：來，主委，不好意思，再請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["阮次長清華：但是民營的行庫是會有分行的。"],["賴委員士葆：你知道總暴險多少？次長知道嗎？主委，請問你，緬甸、泰國的地震總暴險多少？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：報告委員，緬甸的暴險是41.42億，然後我們泰國……"],["賴委員士葆：講臺幣。"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：對，這個是臺幣，泰國的暴險是1,280億。"],["賴委員士葆：1,280億？"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：對，臺幣。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣也不少耶！"],["莊副主任委員琇媛：不過，目前我們所接到的訊息，就是他們分行的人員還有建築物一切都還安全。"],["賴委員士葆：因為大家都說緬甸是冒險的新樂園，我就請教主委，你知道有幾家上市公司在緬甸？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我現在沒有這個數據……"],["賴委員士葆：因為時間到了，我告訴你……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我待會會把這個數據再提供給委員。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我現在告訴你數字是132家。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：132家，我們上市公司全部多少家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：總共上市櫃將近……"],["賴委員士葆：上市公司。"],["彭主任委員金隆：1,039家。"],["賴委員士葆：占百分之十幾，我們新南向跑去那邊，一個地震就影響很大。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對啊，泰國本來就有很多我們的產業會移到那邊去。"],["賴委員士葆：影響很大，你們要注意喔，暴險這麼高。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然密切注意，就像剛才講到一發生以後，我們銀行就立刻啟動調查暴險的情況，包括他們所有行舍的情況及人員如何，我們都立刻啟動這樣一個措施。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是人員平安、損失不大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，他剛才講過，我們所有的行舍現在都算是安全的狀態。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一題，我請教財政部次長，101的大股東伊藤忠持股31%，賣出一半給泛公股，泛公股現在占72%，你了解一下它為什麼撤離？伊藤忠為什麼要撤離臺灣？"],["阮次長清華：為什麼要撤離臺灣……"],["賴委員士葆：它為什麼要賣股啦？"],["阮次長清華：這是基於它自己的投資要轉換的考量啦，所以它當時是希望能夠處分在臺灣的一些資產。"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼不賣給外資，還賣給本國銀行？是沒人要還是怎樣？"],["阮次長清華：其實這個是公司治理的範圍，基本上他在101過去的獲利其實都相當不錯啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我的解讀啦，這是在「賴17條」之後做的決定，要慢慢撤出臺灣，地緣政治，其實亞太資產管理中心，不管是什麼中心，地緣政治、臺灣的政治安定非常重要，這一點老實說，它看到了臺灣的政治開始不安定，會怕，錢快跑，就是這樣。"],["阮次長清華：就我們了解，它是基於資產配置重新調整的一個考量，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝召委。接著請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5d5f86a340b95c0b4ab992d8b3314b746e0e68ba40c49a00f179242d67ddf0c495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:34:11 - 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土壤的含水量有限大量的降雨當然由山區匯流就到了平原 所以呢水利設施面臨的挑戰當然我們就有淹水了好那對於這個"},{"start":51.727,"end":70.433,"text":"南部這邊的降雨時空其實分佈是不均的第二個 豐沛降雨量無法確保我高雄穩定的供水第三個 缺水問題成為經濟產業發展的隱憂第四個 在短時間強降雨造成的嚴重水患當然本席有一些具體的主張"},{"start":71.293,"end":91.05,"text":"那在南部地区的降雨的时空分布不均这两张图很明确一个是我们台湾的平均的雨量一个是我南部的平均雨量那在这样的枯水期当中的11 12到4月5到10月当中很明显就是集中在一个7月"},{"start":93.012,"end":107.789,"text":"但是枯水期的量幾乎是這個風水期跟枯水期的量其實是沒有辦法平衡的那這豐沛降雨也沒有辦法確保高雄的穩定供水我大高雄並沒有大型可用的儲水水庫"},{"start":108.69,"end":133.259,"text":"所以自來水就來自三個 高頻液 浮流水跟地下水好 那這個台灣地區啊 這個山高水短所以呢 這個過去十年 高雄地區平均的年降達到2020的公里但是呢 因為沒有大型水庫 所以呢 蓄風濟枯的功能也就沒有"},{"start":134.219,"end":154.305,"text":"那所以呢缺水問題反而成為我經濟產業發展的隱憂那高雄地區我們缺乏蓄水能量無法有效的調節水資源所以呢在年度降雨量低於平均的時候很容易引發缺水的危機對於民生產業衝擊是很大的好本期關心的是高雄的S郎帶"},{"start":155.325,"end":164.468,"text":"在S浪帶當中高雄地區的經濟命脈台積電也準備進行擴廠那光是一個3奈米廠一天就要7.5萬噸一個2奈米廠我只講一個2奈米廠他就一天要10萬噸水"},{"start":172.29,"end":193.396,"text":"但是我高雄每日的供水當然這個數字可能需要調整一下他在民生用水的量體可以120幾噸可以高到130幾萬噸每天工業用水大概每天可以到20幾萬噸最高可以到40萬噸我現在講的這個數字是高雄現在已經合理的最大量體"},{"start":194.176,"end":211.737,"text":"所以如果我的不管是這個相關的S狼袋這邊所有的企業進駐或其他這個產業的進駐即使是中小型大量的進駐之下高雄的缺水的問題其實是可以已經是可以預估的當然我們就要防範嘛"},{"start":213.118,"end":224.803,"text":"好 所以呢 包括我要講到電力這個強降雨呢 既然會帶來水患 又會破壞電力設施那高雄又幅員廣大 城鄉落差很大所以呢 從過去的那三個颱風很明顯的只要這個強降雨來之後 我很多地方是變成電力孤島的"},{"start":233.826,"end":258.58,"text":"所以我在這邊具體要求兩項第一個請經濟部盤點我高雄半導體S廊帶或新建工業區的用水需求提出由廠商自建或政府協助建立的再生水廠或者海水氮化廠來供這些廠區使用避免新增的產業進駐排擠高雄市現有的工業"},{"start":259.46,"end":282.435,"text":"或者跟民生用水因為有新廠我的人員會進駐那相關人員來當然我的民生用水量也會增加所以我們不希望產業所帶來的經濟擁擠以及這個人口的增加他反而排擠到我現有的這個工業民生的用水量另外一個我要請你們盤點全高雄地區的微電網儲能系統"},{"start":283.596,"end":311.53,"text":"你們到底建置的如何過去三個颱風非常的慘烈那包括我自己的選區大寮的海堤的地方沿著海堤的地方這個理論上是不太可能做這個電網地下化而是以微電網的方式來建置那到底計畫在哪裡所以避免這個水災的時候形成電力孤島所以針對水跟電請你提供相關的這個規劃那是不是請回應一下"},{"start":314.19,"end":341.2,"text":"首先非常佩服委員對於水跟電的指教目前我們的工作大概都朝著委員所提的方向 委員兩個具體主張我們這些資料我們一個禮拜內會送給你但是我在這一邊容我再用大家一點時間說明一下你提出來的一個事項我們辦理的情形第一個風呼不均這個不但是高雄如此我們依照國科會"},{"start":342.489,"end":365.781,"text":"的未來的事件我們的分析全國大概這個情況都不例外沒有一處不例外所以我們積極的來推動西部狼帶的珍珠串計劃就是要來解決以高雄為例在去年113年我們把真文水庫跟南化水庫這個水源串通起來就可以解決剛剛委員所說的高雄"},{"start":366.809,"end":383.509,"text":"有水沒有庫的情況因為過多的水就會往北送到南化水庫跟曾文水庫蓄存下來所以委員可以看到目前南化水庫跟曾文水庫我知道你很努力的在這個封庫當中的調解那本席講的是我已經很預測我未來產業進駐"},{"start":386.192,"end":404.054,"text":"的一個大量用水以及在這個極端氣候下所形成的強降雨而造成的電力孤島的問題所以你剛才解釋我接受那我也肯定你們的努力但是我對於新增的用水的量體那你們要整個大高雄盤點出來您說的一個月內"},{"start":407.115,"end":429.08,"text":"不只為高雄包括S郎帶的整個產業用水都沒有關係或新建的工業區或新建的工業區像高雄有百補工業區啊它是針對中小企業啊複合型的一個工業區啊也是經濟部開發的啊那像那個東西你也知道為什麼我還提到政府不是每個人都台積電可以自建啊那如果那個園區來講在我現有不排擠現有的"},{"start":430.06,"end":451.13,"text":"工業民生用水之後可是有新建的這些工業區那你是不是要自己投入要協助他們用公立的用我們公家地去做再生水場對新建的工業區要做啊是 高雄目前就是有全國最多的再生水我們不希望這些高科技的用水如委員所說排擠到既有民生的用水"},{"start":451.53,"end":468.92,"text":"所以我們未來在高雄我們會再有兩個計畫大概是楠梓跟橋口攀點出來好不好再給我好不好因為你的增加的量跟你現在的供給量需求量跟供給量是不是能夠對應得上針對微電網的部分是請台電總經理稍微回覆一下還是次長你要回覆"},{"start":469.64,"end":491.592,"text":"基本上電網強韌計畫這個部分其實是我們目前盡力在做的事情那至於說孤島的地方這個也是現在台電公司希望說我要的是全高雄你們要規劃微電網的儲能系統你們要給我一個規劃那要不要總經理林可"},{"start":492.712,"end":512.712,"text":"第一個針對高雄整個區域包括意志在的地區是不是容我們經濟部來盤點一下跟台電公司確認一下再送資料給你因為我不講偏鄉的地方因為不是偏鄉都會整回電力孤島如果我的選區林園林園林園區那幾乎就七天"},{"start":513.573,"end":537.175,"text":"在整個三個颱風來之後 七天斷電 但是我要肯定台電是很積極的搶修我沒有任何苛責之意 但是對我民怨沸騰七天沒有電 民生除了實在是已經受不了之外 我的所有的魚苗我們的高雄黑的喜宅那個園區 提供了全台灣六成的魚苗全部通通打趴"},{"start":537.816,"end":549.788,"text":"全部所以那個所帶來的產業所以你一個微電網的整個高雄市的規劃不是只有三區連高雄市區內都可能都你們要去評估好不好好謝謝好一個月內這兩個有關這個一個月內提供給委員謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時34分）有請次長。"],["主席：賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：好，次長。本席關心極端氣候所帶來的強降雨，除了淹水問題還有電力潰損的問題，就極端氣候，去年2024年10月的枯水期當中卻來了3個颱風，地表吸水量有限、土壤含水量有限，大量降雨由山區匯流到了平原，所以水利設施面臨挑戰，當然我們就淹水了。","南部這邊降雨的時空分布不均；第二個，豐沛降雨量無法確保高雄穩定的供水；第三個，缺水問題成為經濟產業發展隱憂；第四個，短時間強降雨造成嚴重水患，當然本席有一些具體主張。","南部地區降雨時空分布不均，這兩張圖很明確，這是臺灣的平均雨量，另一個是南部的平均雨量，在枯水期的11、12到4月，5到10月當中，很明顯就是集中在7月。但是豐水跟枯水期的量其實是沒有辦法平衡的。","豐沛降雨也沒有辦法確保高雄的穩定供水，我大高雄並沒有大型可用的儲水水庫，所以自來水就來自三個：高屏堰、伏流水跟地下水。臺灣地區山高水短，過去十年高雄地區的平均年降雨量達到2,020公厘，但是因為沒有大型水庫，所以「蓄豐濟枯」的功能也就沒有。","缺水問題反而成為經濟產業發展的隱憂，高雄地區缺乏蓄水能量，無法有效調節水資源，所以在年度降雨量低於平均的時候，很容易引發缺水危機，對於民生及產業衝擊是很大的。","本席關心的是高雄的S廊帶，在S廊帶當中，高雄地區的經濟命脈，台積電也準備進行擴廠，光是一個3奈米廠，一天就要7.5萬噸；一個2奈米廠，一天就要10萬噸水，但是高雄每日的供水，當然這個數字可能需要調整一下，在民生用水的量體每天可以達一百二十幾萬噸，最高可以到一百三十幾萬噸，工業用水大概每天可以到二十幾萬噸，最高可以到四十萬噸，我現在講的這個數字是高雄現在合理的最大量體。所以不管是相關S廊帶這邊所有的企業進駐或其他的產業進駐，即使是中小型的，在大量的進駐之下，高雄缺水的問題其實已經是可以預估的，當然我們就要防範。","包括我要講到電力，強降雨不但會帶來水患，又會破壞電力設施，高雄又幅員廣大，城鄉落差很大，所以從過去那3個颱風明顯可見，只要強降雨之後，高雄很多地方是變成電力孤島的，所以我在這邊有2項具體要求，第一個，請經濟部盤點高雄半導體S廊帶或新建工業區的用水需求，提出由廠商自建或政府協助建立的再生水廠或者海水淡化廠供這些廠區使用的規劃案，避免新增的產業進駐排擠高雄市現有的工業或者民生用水，因為有新廠，人員會進駐，相關的人員來了之後，當然民生用水量也會增加，我們不希望產業所帶來的經濟榮景以及人口的增加，反而排擠到我們現有工業、民生的用水量。","另外，我要請你們盤點全高雄地區的微電網儲能系統，你們到底建置的如何？過去3個颱風非常的慘烈，包括我自己的選區，大寮沿著海堤的地方，這裡理論上是不太可能做電網地下化，而是以微電網的方式來建置，那到底計畫在哪裡，以避免水災的時候形成電力孤島。所以針對水跟電請你提供相關的規劃，是不是請回應一下？"],["賴次長建信：首先非常佩服委員對於水跟電的指教，目前我們的工作大概都朝著委員所提的方向，有關委員的2個具體主張，這些資料我們一個禮拜內會送給你，但是在這邊容我占用大家一點時間說明一下，有關委員提出來的一個事項，我們辦理的情形。","第一個，豐枯不均，這個不但是高雄如此，依照國科會對未來事件的分析，全國這個情況大概都不例外，沒有一處例外，所以我們積極推動西部廊帶的珍珠串計畫，就是要來解決這個問題。以高雄為例，在去年（113年）我們把曾文水庫跟南化水庫的水源串通起來，就可以解決剛剛委員所說的高雄有水沒有庫的情況，因為過多的水就會往北送到南化水庫跟曾文水庫蓄存下來，所以委員可以看到目前南化水庫跟曾文水庫的水量都很大。"],["林委員岱樺：我知道你很努力的在做豐枯當中的調節，但本席講的是，我已經預測未來產業進駐的大量用水，以及在極端氣候下所形成的強降雨而造成電力孤島的問題，你剛才的解釋我接受，我也肯定你們的努力，但是對於新增的用水量體，你們要將整個大高雄盤點出來，您說一個月內是嗎？好，一個月內。"],["賴次長建信：目前為止包括高雄S廊帶的整個產業用水都沒有關係……"],["林委員岱樺：或新建的工業區，像高雄有白埔工業區，它是針對中小企業複合型的一個工業區，也是經濟部開發的，像那個東西，你也知道，為什麼我還提到政府？因為不是每個人都是台積電可以自建，如果以園區來講，在不排擠現有的工業、民生用水的情況，可是又有新建的這些工業區，那你是不是要自己投入，要協助他們由公家去做再生水廠？對新建的工業區要做啊！"],["賴次長建信：是，高雄目前就是有全國最多的再生水，我們也不希望這些高科技的用水，如委員所說排擠到既有民生的用水，所以我們未來在高雄會再有兩個計畫，大概是楠梓跟橋頭……"],["林委員岱樺：好，盤點出來，再給我好不好？我想知道增加的量跟現在的量，供給量、需求量是不是能夠對應的上。針對微電網的部分是請台電總經理稍微回復一下，還是次長你要回復？"],["賴次長建信：基本上電網強韌計畫這個部分其實是我們目前盡力在做的事情，至於孤島的地方，這個也是現在台電公司希望結合一些……"],["林委員岱樺：我要的是針對全高雄你們要規劃微電網的儲能系統，你們要給我一個規劃。"],["賴次長建信：第一個，針對於高雄整個區域，包括易致災的地區，是不是容我們經濟部來盤點一下，跟台電公司確認一下，再送資料給您？"],["林委員岱樺：對，我要全高雄，我不講偏鄉的地方，因為就算不是偏鄉都會成為電力孤島，就以我的選區林園區來說，在3個颱風來之後，斷電7天，當然這我要肯定台電是很積極地搶修，我沒有任何苛責之意，但是民怨沸騰，7天沒有電，民生除了實在是已經受不了之外，還有我們的魚苗，我們高雄的那個魚苗園區提供了全臺灣六成的魚苗，全部通通打趴，那個對產業所帶來的影響，所以你們微電網在整個高雄市的規劃不是只有山區，連高雄市區內你們可能都要去評估，好不好？謝謝，這兩個在一個月內提供。"],["賴次長建信：好，我們一個月內提供給委員。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請陳亭妃委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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有沒有是"},{"start":154.125,"end":168.939,"text":"首先跟委員說明過去的治水工作確實產生很大的效果以剛剛委員這張投影片為例在北北基的淡水河的流域民國71年開始投入超過1600億元的預算但是"},{"start":172.697,"end":199.613,"text":"相较之下我们其他的流域地区包括中南部重大的刚刚委员所说的高雄地区我们只有在民国94年开始政府才用集中的力量用特别预算来编列希望来补助地方政府在过往94年之前一年差不多是30亿94年之前大概都是只有坐北北机南部很少被看见我们看到高雄25个制红尺"},{"start":200.433,"end":220.708,"text":"不管是在楷米颱風或是在栗翅的颱風都發揮很大的效果那我們也不敢想像說整個城市若是沒有製紅池缺少了土地的成紅這個情況會如何所以近年來我們就積極的推動也是在委員的協助之下我們在美濃透過"},{"start":222.13,"end":239.827,"text":"工程的滯洪池還有包括農地的滯洪這個概念在凱敏颱風之後我們看到了很多的縣市政府都是希望引用高雄美農在地滯洪的經驗來引用到他的地方市長你講到這個我們就來先來看就繼續來探討我覺得"},{"start":243.01,"end":261.945,"text":"抗旱跟防洪 治洪其實它有一點算是一體的啦您剛剛講到美濃的在地治洪其實它在過去幾次的颱風雨災的時候都發揮了相當的程度的效果去年前年這個水利署在老農溪有一個所謂的防災韌性計畫你們在老農溪的這個中下游這邊"},{"start":268.21,"end":274.919,"text":"中游啦 就靠近這個新威大橋這裡你們把它峻深挖了一個很大的"},{"start":276.264,"end":298.694,"text":"像類似像滯洪池那當然意外的造成一個很漂亮的景觀那這個其實對你們來說你們其實是把水除下來然後呢也補充了我們的地下水所以這兩年在枯旱期的時候美濃地區已經沒有再喊說啊這個缺水啦沒有水這個計畫我覺得非常的好"},{"start":299.614,"end":311.578,"text":"可是很顯然的看起來因為預算總預算被砍了之後我看我跟那個署長應該是兩個禮拜前我們去現場看過嘛這個未來算是你們的新興計畫總預算被砍了之後這還能做嗎"},{"start":316.56,"end":341.02,"text":"這麼優秀這麼好的一個計畫單單老農溪的防災韌性計畫未來還能做嗎我不知道這個我要請教第二個前瞻的治水計畫預算也還沒有審查過所以您剛剛講的高雄的這一些工程我剛剛問你的高雄未來還有沒有其他的工程有很多治理工程就有18件應急工程有49件"},{"start":342.461,"end":363.884,"text":"可是呢 這一些計畫 這一些工程因為前瞻的治水計畫預算沒過所以這一些工程還橫在那裡那你們給本席的備註裡面有寫說各同意案件需與治理計畫相符114年所需的經費如果預算奉准後再辦理"},{"start":364.645,"end":381.037,"text":"如果預算沒有準的話請各縣市政府自籌經費辦理或於後續計畫提列換句話說現在預算沒過雖然你們已經把工程核定了但是未來我們不知道錢在哪裡工程還能不能做得下去"},{"start":381.918,"end":407.132,"text":"所以所謂的防災任性抗旱防洪完全都要取決於錢啊錢在哪裡 昨天這個是我去年10月份到仁武鳥松地區的19彎排水去年凱米颱風仁武淹得很嚴重所以市政府水利局認為19彎的排水原來的滯洪量不足所以我們要把它擴大量呢這個案子也在你們核定的"},{"start":407.452,"end":429.142,"text":"案件裡面了 可是現在沒錢不知道什麼時候能做昨天我跟陳其邁市長到美濃湖去看排水這個已經工程已經做了65%了但是我們還有另外一期的工程大概將近840公尺的這個美濃湖的這個排水工程合訂了但是我不知道現在錢在哪裡能不能做什麼時候可以做市長可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":437.384,"end":456.778,"text":"跟委員說明前瞻第五期的預算我們經過立法院聯席會議委員會審議通過大概經濟部的部分編了101億元我們希望這個預算早日通過剛剛委員所說的各縣市分配在前瞻五期的工程就可以很快速的開展"},{"start":457.478,"end":470.086,"text":"那當然現在預算還沒有通過的情況之下我們會利用前期的預算或是一些結餘的部分來做相關的這個融資不過基本上因為4月底"},{"start":471.223,"end":495.921,"text":"就是我們訓期 準備要開始了嘛結束的時候 9月1號就訓期開始了我們希望這個預算早日的通過那另外老榮溪的這個計畫 因為它是屬於新興計畫那也需要總預算的 總預算被砍了新興計畫就完全不能做啦所以我就很擔心啊 我們所謂的這些防災任性到底要怎麼防災 要怎麼做任性"},{"start":497.509,"end":518.064,"text":"政府空有這麼多的想法跟計畫可是沒錢沒錢你什麼都做不了啊沒錢你什麼樣的災都防不了啊沒錢你怎麼樣來保護人民的生命財產的安全啊這是我們最擔憂的地方啊預算可以砍但是不能亂砍啊"},{"start":520.25,"end":544.863,"text":"不能沒有理性的亂砍 你砍到這樣子我們今天主席 我很高興主席今天排了一個這樣的議程可是你可以凸顯到我單單現在只有講我高雄的部分我選區的部分 就這麼多的工程了你更何況其他的委員 其他的區域中部的山區要不要北部要不要 雖然北部已經拿了很多錢了"},{"start":546.209,"end":570.788,"text":"大家各自回到區域裡頭 你面臨到淹水的問題的時候你面臨到治水的問題的時候都需要錢啊這些計畫不是憑空掉下來的 錢也不是憑空掉下來啊我其實我本來還有想要問那個農業部喔就你們的那個灌溉的部分啊來 那個次長 主席可以再給我一分鐘齁次長您剛剛的那個報告裡面啊 你們農業部有一些"},{"start":572.762,"end":601.745,"text":"你講的這個所謂的灌溉系統你有增加了這麼多處的智慧灌溉增加了這麼多的抗旱水井但是你沒有告訴我們你的區域分布在哪些地方基本上我們就是要提高這個它的農業的韌性所以對於缺水的地方我們特別會來加強所以基本上這些多水源以及這個增加抗旱的這些水源絕大部分都是集中在這個中南部的這些地區"},{"start":602.185,"end":629.325,"text":"集中在中南部來那個蔡署長我是不是能夠請您給我一份比較完整的比如說你們的這些智慧灌溉系統跟抗旱水井的這些建設大概是在哪一些縣市哪一些區域那你們的這個灌溉溝渠你們的灌溉溝渠能不能跟水利的這個所謂的排水系統把它做一個適度的連結"},{"start":630.706,"end":647.82,"text":"有時候大水一來可以透過你們的灌溉溝渠讓這個水也能夠順利的導流出去我覺得這個也是一個防災的概念過去賴建信在當署長的時候也推過這樣的一個想法有沒有可能大家再去做一些整合"},{"start":648.61,"end":672.321,"text":"報告委員沒有問題首先資料部分大概我們的康安水井這幾年都集中在高屏還有雲嘉南地區那第二個部分就是事實上我們的進入系統也包含一部分的這個農田排水所以農田排水跟這個區域排水還有相關市域排水其實都有互相的我知道你們有包含但我講的是說比較易淹水地區的這些排水能不能讓他更緊密的去結合好不好我們持續努力謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":188,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時22分）謝謝主席，我先請一下經濟部次長。"],["主席：賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長好。次長，我想這應該是您第一次以經濟部次長的身分備詢，過去你在這邊大概都是以水利署署長的身分，所以對於抗旱、防洪、如何治水，我相信您應該有非常多的經驗。次長，您剛剛的報告開宗明義就提到高雄，高雄在去年凱米颱風的時候，單日最高降雨量超過1,400毫米，這已經遠超過98年的莫拉克風災，當時大家就在討論到底高雄這麼多年來做了這些滯洪池有沒有效，有一批網友認為滯洪池是沒有效的，但是我們在地的感覺跟你們現在這個報告，你的報告很清楚的講，淹水範圍比起莫拉克大概少了5,000公頃。我們看了一下過去這十幾、二十年來，所有臺灣的治水計畫，把高雄跟北北基相比，我們會赫然覺得高雄其實很可憐，如果不是從2006年開始有所謂的治水計畫和特別預算的挹注、滯洪池的設立，我想高雄的淹水應該會比過往更嚴重。現在這種極端氣候，你看今天都已經3月底了，過去這個時候應該是熱到快昏倒了，可是現在臺北的溫度這麼低。次長，我想請教一下，您覺得像這樣的治水計畫到底有沒有效？比如在高雄，我們其實還有很多地方的防洪標準遠低於20年的、25年的，那有沒有去盤點這一些地區？有沒有什麼新的新興計畫，或者是要趕快加速進行的？"],["賴次長建信：是，首先跟委員說明，過去的治水工作確實產生很大的效果，以剛剛委員這張投影片為例，在北北基的淡水河流域，民國71年開始投入超過1,600億元的預算，相較之下，其他的流域地區包括中南部，委員所說的高雄地區，到民國94年政府才開始集中力量，用特別預算來編列，希望來補助地方政府。在94年之前，一年差不多是30億，針對全國……"],["邱委員議瑩：94年之前大概都是只有做北北基，南部很少被看見。"],["賴次長建信：我們看到高雄25個滯洪池，不管是在凱米颱風或歷次的颱風，都發揮很大的效果。我們也不敢想像，整個城市若是沒有滯洪，缺少了土地的承洪，情況會如何，所以近年來我們就積極的推動。也是在委員的協助之下，我們在美濃透過工程的滯洪池，還有包括農地的滯洪，這個概念在凱米颱風之後，我們看到了很多的縣市政府都希望引用高雄美濃在地滯洪的經驗。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，你講到這個，我們就繼續來探討。我覺得抗旱、防洪、滯洪其實有一點算是一體的，你剛剛講到美濃的在地滯洪，其實它在過去幾次颱風、雨災的時候都發揮了相當程度的效果。前年水利署在荖濃溪有一個所謂的防災韌性計畫，在荖濃溪的中游靠近新威大橋這裡，你們把它浚深挖了一個很大的類似像滯洪池，當然意外地造成一個很漂亮的景觀。這個對你們來說其實是把水儲下來，也補充了地下水，所以這兩年在枯旱期的時候，美濃地區已經沒有在喊缺水，這個計畫我覺得非常好。可是很顯然地看起來，因為總預算被砍了之後，我跟署長應該是兩個禮拜前去現場看過，這個未來算是你們的新興計畫，總預算被砍了之後這還能做嗎？這麼優秀、這麼好的一個計畫，單單荖濃溪的防災韌性計畫，未來還能做嗎？我不知道，這個我要請教。","第二個，前瞻的治水計畫預算也還沒有審查通過，所以您剛剛講的，高雄的這一些工程，我剛剛問你的，高雄未來還有沒有其他的工程？有，很多，治理工程就有18件，應急工程有49件。可是這一些計畫、工程因為前瞻的治水計畫預算沒過，所以這一些工程還橫在那裡。你們給本席的備註裡面寫「各同意案件需與治理計畫相符，114年所需經費，俟預算奉准後再辦理」，如果預算沒有准的話，請各縣市政府「自籌經費辦理或於後續計畫提列。」換句話說，現在預算沒過，雖然你們已經把工程核定了，但是未來我們不知道錢在哪裡，工程還能不能做得下去？所謂的防災韌性、抗旱、防洪完全都取決於錢，錢在哪裡？"],["賴次長建信：沒有錯。"],["邱委員議瑩：我去年10月份到仁武、鳥松地區去看十九灣排水，去年凱米颱風仁武淹得很嚴重，所以市政府水利局也認為十九灣的排水原來的滯洪量不足，所以我們要把它擴大量能，這個案子也在你們核定的案件裡面了，可是現在沒錢，不知道什麼時候能做。昨天我跟陳其邁市長到美濃湖去看排水，這個工程已經做了65%，但是我們還有另外一期工程，大概將近840公尺的美濃湖排水工程，核定了，但是我不知道現在錢在哪裡，能不能做、什麼時候可以做，次長可以告訴我嗎？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，前瞻第5期的預算，我們經過立法院聯席會議委員會審議通過，大概經濟部的部分編了101億元，我們希望這個預算早日通過，剛剛委員所說的各縣市分配在前瞻5期的工程就可以很快速地開展。當然現在預算還沒有通過的情況之下，我們會利用前期的預算或是一些結餘部分做相關勻支，不過基本上因為4月底就是汛期……"],["邱委員議瑩：準備要開始了嘛！"],["賴次長建信：結束的時候……"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！"],["賴次長建信：5月1日就汛期開始了，我們希望這個預算早日通過。另外荖濃溪的這個計畫，因為它是屬於新興計畫，也需要總預算的……"],["邱委員議瑩：總預算被砍了，新興計畫就完全不能做啦！所以我就很擔心，我們所謂的這些防災韌性，到底要怎麼防災、要怎麼做韌性？政府空有這麼多的想法跟計畫，可是沒錢！沒錢你什麼都做不了啊！沒錢你什麼樣的災都防不了啊！沒錢你怎麼樣保護人民的生命財產安全？這是我們最擔憂的地方！預算可以砍，但是不能亂砍，不能沒有理性地亂砍，你砍到這樣子！我很高興主席今天排了一個這樣的議程，可是你可以凸顯到，我單單現在只有講高雄的部分，我選區的部分就這麼多的工程了，更何況其他的委員、其他的區域，中部的山區要不要？北部要不要？雖然北部已經拿很多錢了，大家各自回到區域裡頭面臨到淹水問題的時候、面臨到治水問題的時候都需要錢哪！這些計畫不是憑空掉下來的，錢也不是憑空掉下來。其實我本來還想要問農業部次長，就是你們的灌溉部分。","主席可不可以再給我一分鐘？","次長，您剛剛的那個報告裡面，你們農業部有一些你講的這個所謂的灌溉系統，你有增加了這麼多處的智慧灌溉，增加了這麼多的抗旱水井，但是你沒有告訴我們區域分布在哪些地方。"],["黃次長昭欽：基本上我們就是要提高它農業的韌性，對於缺水的地方特別會加強，所以基本上這些多水源以及增加抗旱的水源，絕大部分都是集中在中南部的地區。"],["邱委員議瑩：集中在中南部。"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：蔡署長，我是不是能夠請您給我一份比較完整的，比如你們的智慧灌溉系統跟抗旱水井的這些建設大概是在哪一些縣市、哪一些區域。"],["蔡署長昇甫：沒問題。"],["邱委員議瑩：你們的灌溉溝渠能不能跟水利的所謂排水系統做適度連結？有些時候大水一來，透過你們的灌溉溝渠讓水能夠順利地導流出去，我覺得這也是一個防災的概念，過去賴建信在當署長的時候也推過這樣的想法，有沒有可能大家再去做一些整合報告？"],["蔡署長昇甫：報告委員，沒有問題，首先資料部分，大概我們的抗旱水井這幾年都集中在高屏還有雲嘉南地區。第二個部分，事實上我們的圳路系統也包含一部分的農田排水，所以農田排水跟相關區域排水，其實都有……"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道你們有包含，但我講的是易淹水地區的這些排水，能不能讓它更緊密地結合，好不好？"],["蔡署長昇甫：是，可以。好，我們持續努力，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。再請下一位委員詢答前，我們先進行確認議事錄。上一次會議議事錄，請問有無錯誤？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","現在請林岱樺委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩請金管會彭主委好 彭主委委員早早齁 早剛剛各單位的報告都看了一下這個"},{"start":22.472,"end":41.664,"text":"超額儲蓄過去累積10年已經達到30兆以上然後去年一年是4兆多一點點那這樣一直不停的累積喔如果不想辦法要處理用這麼大的資金在追求小的少的資產的話那個資產會"},{"start":44.929,"end":67.206,"text":"等於就是會過熱了導致很多方面包括不動產的不適當的高漲跟這個可能都有一點關係所以如何可以增加台灣的財富對其他的國家的投資尤其是美國川普總統上台之後"},{"start":68.923,"end":94.05,"text":"川普總統他現在就是譬如說提出的對等關稅等等就是要站在美國的立場希望大家能夠平等的對待他尤其台灣是對美國非常高的貿易順差去年就有700多億739億美金所以是對美國第六大的全美國統計"},{"start":95.47,"end":118.405,"text":"台灣是對他是第六大的這個順差的國家那在這樣的狀況之下賴總統有鑒於這一點他也曾經提倡說希望台灣的廠商如果美國的投資環境適當的時候然後他策略上認為可以的話應該擴大對美國的投資這一點不知道你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":119.349,"end":134.181,"text":"我想我們在推動這個計畫的時候其實本來就是希望我們國人的財富能夠做更合理的運用那不要過度集中在某一些特定的這個方向去那也是這要必須透過專業的人來"},{"start":136.062,"end":159.473,"text":"來做一個規劃當然比如說我們台灣的這個投資的工具或市場可能沒辦法容納台灣這麼多的這個資金所以勢必有一部分是要合理的分配在海外去做這樣的一個投資像比如我們過去很多金融業的資產就是做這樣這個分配但是我們希望說能夠有一個更專業的方式來幫國人來做這件事情"},{"start":161.374,"end":180.689,"text":"如果現在政府的角度是希望台灣優良的廠商可以去美國當然經過那公司的評估去做比較多一點的投資那你贊不贊成台灣的個人在跟美國平等互惠狀況之下讓個人也能夠多一點到美國去投資"},{"start":182.433,"end":199.783,"text":"這個跟委員報告我想所以我們其實上很難用政策去限制一個資金的完整的流向當美國的機會比較多他的相對的國際的資金的競爭力強他自然就會引導那個資本過去那我的意思是說我們在政府政策上應該要"},{"start":200.803,"end":202.785,"text":"讓這些錢能夠留在台灣建設台灣促進我們產業的發展這是雙向的"},{"start":220.279,"end":230.56,"text":"那我覺得我們不會去刻意的去說那個錢一定要留在台灣假設國外有很好的我們也透過專業的團隊來幫我們的不管是個人或法人來做這樣的一個安排"},{"start":231.172,"end":256.779,"text":"投資的目的是要獲利啦投資的目的不是說錢跑去美國然後就留在那邊主要看機會還有就是它未來的譬如說很多的台灣的這個大型的保險公司也在美國買了非常多的美債啊美國公債啊那全世界認為說這是信用平等最好的不會跳票的等等投資的目的是為了要賺錢嘛是 安全跟賺錢問題是這樣子啊你光只有台灣這一方面的法令放寬"},{"start":258.268,"end":269.789,"text":"還不夠啊你跟美國之間有沒有辦法可以談一個平等互惠譬如說讓台灣的個人直接投資美國的股市呢不要現在主要的管道都要經過副委託啊"},{"start":271.087,"end":295.493,"text":"那可以降低中間的這些勞費啊有沒有辦法這一點當然是國際資金呢他會尋找一個降低交易成本的方式因為主要是我們現在我們國內有相關的產業比如我們證券業他就從事這個業務所以我們當然是站在我們自己的法規架構下面才會衍生出這個付委託的一個架構我想相對從對方國家大概也會有這樣的一個考慮啦我想"},{"start":296.033,"end":309.739,"text":"但是我們在國際上的交易現在越來越大越來越透明很多人他也有辦法透過自己的力量直接可以去做這個買賣不過就是相對他有一定的門檻跟所謂的這個對這個金融市場的理解"},{"start":310.478,"end":337.076,"text":"如果你有綠卡或是說你是有雙重國籍你投資直接投資美國股市沒有問題啦那現在問題是說能不能對談我知道現在我有問過國內的證券業者他們說要去美國為什麼要用付委託的方式因為你去美國的交易所你要去註冊變成他們的會員那個會費相當的高啊還有保管銀行的問題啦就是相應你的錢你的那個款券那些都要有一個機構在那邊"},{"start":338.447,"end":344.244,"text":"那我的意思是說我們有沒有這樣的想法跟一個這麼大的這個可以投資標的國家"},{"start":346.141,"end":372.603,"text":"台灣直接投資美國美國直接投資台灣互相之間把這個法令把它處理好讓兩邊的人要投資都很方便那我們台灣就可以我不用經過這麼麻煩的手續我也不用經過這麼多的這個這個不用這麼多的費用然後我就直接可以投資美國的股市呢那美國人也可以直接來投資台灣的股市呢對這個是雙向互利的方式來做啦就是說所以這部分"},{"start":373.769,"end":401.042,"text":"我們前一陣子也有請我們政企局去檢討比如說外國人投資台灣的一些的方式我想這部分這個方向我們來請我們的同仁針對這部分能不能針對這個東西來做一些分析跟做一些看看有什麼我們可以降低交易成本然後可以增加雙方投資因為畢竟我們要發展資金流通的一個中心能夠更方便我想交易成本更低應該是一個方向"},{"start":401.752,"end":417.822,"text":"而且這有一個好處啊你投資可以希望我們的企業多投資美國那我們個人的資金也投資美國的股市那美國的資金也可以投資台灣的股市那這樣雙方面之間的更加緊密的結合嘛"},{"start":418.542,"end":443.718,"text":"其實現在是這個機制是有的我們會來考慮就是說這樣的機制有沒有一些比如交易成本比較高的地方我們再來想因為其實我們外國人投資台灣的這個股市其實管道非常所以我們現在外資大概佔43%其實那個比重也是有的只是說剛剛委員所指教說假設個人的部分有沒有還有什麼其他可以來檢討的讓這部分可以更為順暢如果因為其實現在這個"},{"start":448.778,"end":469.937,"text":"網路的關係這個資訊都是很充足的那美國的市場大家認為他的公式公信他的街市是更清楚的那所以如果投資美國市場是台灣投資人的一個選擇的話那當然還是在中央銀行管制的現在說一個人一千萬美金以下啦等等這些那些的管制還是可以在的"},{"start":470.618,"end":488.535,"text":"但是如何讓台灣的人便利那我覺得金融會不會有這樣的想法如果有這樣的想法的話那是不是要跟美國這邊的政府對政府部門之間來去談這個如何來平等互惠然後讓雙方的國人都能夠比較方便的方式啊"},{"start":489.035,"end":514.08,"text":"這跟我們其實上我們在壯大我們的資本市場計畫裡面怎麼樣擴大我們國際間比如資本市場的合作就是我們交易所也在推動像我們在推動那個ETF雙掛牌其實某種程度的精神是很類似的就是希望說兩方的資金相互投資能夠更便利除了標的以外還有整個流程的部分我想我們會再請我們交易所還有就是我們的"},{"start":515,"end":541.348,"text":"但是ETF畢竟是一包的那我也不想要如果有人是對這個比較內行的我要直接舉一個例子現在特斯拉跌很多嘛那我直接下去買特斯拉的股票假設他的研究是這樣的話那這樣子可以讓他方便嗎等等這是整個比較大問題的框架所以這一方面也是可以努力的"},{"start":542.168,"end":561.032,"text":"當然就是整個我們推動國際的這個所謂的資金的流通那怎麼樣強化這競爭因為他想要他跟其他國家的交易是這樣那我們所障礙多一分我們的競爭力就少一個那這當然很自然好那這個就是謝謝希望你們能夠在這方面加強努力謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時28分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：好，彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：早。剛剛各單位的報告，我都看了一下，超額儲蓄過去累積10年已經達到30兆以上，去年1年是四兆多一點點，這樣一直不停的累積，如果不想辦法處理，用這麼大的資金在追求小的、少的資產，資產等於就是會過熱了，導致很多方面包括不動產不適當的高漲，跟這個可能都有點關係。所以如何可以增加臺灣的財富及對其他國家的投資，尤其是美國川普總統上臺之後，譬如川普總統現在提出的對等關稅等等，就是要站在美國的立場，希望大家都能夠平等的對待他，尤其臺灣是對美國非常高的貿易順差，去年就有七百多億，739億美金，所以從美國統計來看，臺灣對他是第六大順差的國家。在這樣的狀況之下，賴總統有鑑於這一點，他曾經提倡希望臺灣的廠商，如果美國的投資環境適當的時候，策略上認為可以的話，應該擴大對美國的投資，這一點不知道你的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在推動這個計畫的時候，本來就是希望國人的財富能夠做更合理的運用，不要過度集中在某一些特定的方向，這也必須透過專業的人來規劃。臺灣的投資工具或市場可能沒辦法容納臺灣這麼多的資金，勢必有一部分要合理的分配到海外投資，比如過去很多金融業的資產就是這樣分配，但是我們希望能夠有一個更專業的方式來幫國人做這件事情。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果現在政府的角度是希望臺灣優良的廠商可以去美國，當然是經過公司的評估做比較多一點的投資，你贊不贊成在跟美國平等互惠的狀況之下，讓臺灣的個人也能夠多一點到美國去投資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們難用政策限制資金完整的流向，當然美國的機會比較多，相對的，它的國際資金競爭力強，自然就會引導資本過去。我的意思是政府在政策上應該要更能夠……假設現階段我們的投資工具不多，我們應該導引他到更正確的方向，但我們更要積極打造國內有更多的投資工具出來，讓這些錢能夠留在臺灣、建設臺灣，促進產業發展，這是雙向的。我們不會刻意說錢一定要留在臺灣，假設國外有很好的機會，我們也透過專業的團隊來幫不管是個人或法人做這樣安排。"],["吳委員秉叡：投資的目的是要獲利，投資的目的不是錢跑去美國，然後就留在那邊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要看機會，還有未來的……"],["吳委員秉叡：譬如很多臺灣的大型保險公司在美國買了非常多的美債、美國公債，全世界認為這是信用評等最好的、不會跳票等等，投資的目的是為了要賺錢。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是安全跟賺錢。"],["吳委員秉叡：問題是這樣，光只有臺灣這一方面的法令放寬還不夠，你跟美國之間有沒有辦法可以談一個平等互惠？譬如讓臺灣的個人直接投資美國股市，不要像現在主要的管道都要經過複委託，可以降低中間的這一些勞務費，有沒有辦法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這點當然是國際資金會尋找降低交易成本的方式，因為主要是現在國內有相關產業，比如證券業就從事這個業務，所以站在我們自己的法規架構下面，才會衍生出複委託的架構，相對地，對方國家大概也會有這樣的考慮。但是現在國際上的交易越來越透明，很多人也有辦法透過自己的力量可以直接買賣，不過就是相對要有一定的門檻跟對金融市場的理解。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果有綠卡或是雙重國籍，直接投資美國股市沒有問題，現在問題是能不能對談，我有問過國內的證券業者，為什麼去美國要用複委託的方式？他們說因為要去美國的交易所註冊變成他們的會員，會費相當高。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，還有保管銀行的問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：你的錢、款券都要有一個機構在那邊。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是，我們有沒有這樣的想法？即跟一個這麼大、可以是投資標的的國家，臺灣直接投資美國、美國直接投資臺灣，互相之間把這個法令處理好，讓兩邊的人要投資都很方便，臺灣人可以不用經過這麼麻煩的手續，也不用這麼多的費用，就直接投資美國的股市，美國人也可以直接來投資臺灣的股市呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個是雙向互利的方式來做，這部分我們前一陣子也有請證期局檢討，比如外國人投資臺灣的一些方式。我想這個方向請我們的同仁針對這個東西來做一些分析，看看有什麼是我們可以降低交易的成本，然後可以增加雙方投資的。畢竟我們要發展資金流通的中心，能夠更方便、交易成本更低應該是一個方向。"],["吳委員秉叡：而且這有一個好處，你希望我們的企業多投資美國，我們個人的資金也投資美國股市，美國的資金也可以投資臺灣股市，這樣雙方面之間更加緊密結合。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在這個機制是有的，我們會來考慮這樣的機制有沒有一些比如交易成本比較高的地方，我們再來想。因為外國人投資臺灣股市的管道非常多，所以現在外資大概占43%，其實那個比重也是有的。只是剛剛委員所指教，假設個人的部分還有沒有什麼其他可以來檢討的，讓這部分可以更為順暢。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在因為網路的關係，這個資訊都是很充足的，大家認為美國市場的公示、公信、揭示是更清楚的，如果投資美國市場是臺灣投資人的一個選擇的話。當然還是在中央銀行現在管制一個人1,000萬美金以下等等，這一些管制還是可以在的，但是如何讓臺灣的人便利？我覺得金管會如果有這樣的想法，是不是要跟美國這一邊，即政府對政府部門之間來談如何平等互惠，讓雙方的國人都能夠有比較方便的方式？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這跟我們在壯大我們的資本市場計畫裡面，比如怎麼樣擴大我們與國際間資本市場的合作，交易所也在推動。現在我們在推動ETF雙掛牌，其實某種程度的精神是很類似的，就是希望兩方的資金相互投資能夠更便利。除了標的以外，還有整個流程的部分，我會再請交易所還有證期局針對委員提出的來研究。"],["吳委員秉叡：ETF畢竟是一包的，如果有人是對這個比較內行的，我要直接舉一個例子，現在特斯拉跌很多，要直接去買特斯拉的股票，假設他的研究是這樣的話，這樣可以讓他方便等等，這是整個比較大問題的框架，所以這一方面也是可以努力的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們推動國際所謂的資金流通，怎麼樣強化這個競爭力，因為他跟其他國家的交易是這樣，我們如果障礙多一分，我們的競爭力就少一個，這當然很自然。"],["吳委員秉叡：希望你們能夠在這一方面加強努力，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡。","接著請賴士葆召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}},{"id":"159773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e559d2f769f9484d6581b41d2d230a5ab3e0e68ba40c49a00f07ad72fc102174e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:16:40 - 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謝謝主席首先是不是請金管會彭主委"},{"start":25.509,"end":39.91,"text":"主委你好主委我請教因為媒體報導OIU免稅優惠延長10年那當然目的就是推動亞洲資產管理中心那我請問主委"},{"start":40.951,"end":55.446,"text":"OIU實施免稅優惠對整個國際金融、證券以及保險業務所得狀況金管會有沒有統計或評估相關的這些業務所得的消長"},{"start":57.047,"end":78.883,"text":"會受到哪些的影響?我們在3歐裡面呢,OIU的發展相對是比較晚的然後再來就是過去因為疫情的關係,實際上OIU在過去有一陣子呢,其實上它的發展是受到一些限制但是因為我們這次推出了亞洲資產管理中心裡面,有個境外金融的整合"},{"start":79.443,"end":95.669,"text":"那部分因為我們的這個稅制到今年2月5號到期了所以這部分我們希望再把它持續延長那OIU我們也看到了在國外的經驗上有很多的機會比如說這裡面很多的商品是保險的商品特別是境外的外國人可以透過這樣來發展"},{"start":97.109,"end":126.07,"text":"過去是他們單獨發展這次透過亞洲資產管理中心是會跟其他的OBU OSU一起做整合所以我想這次我們非常感謝財政部也能夠協助我們把這個法案能夠送進我們大院來審議好 那我請教 主委換句話說 金管會有沒有評估法令免稅優惠延長能夠提升多少幾成業務所得有沒有評估過"},{"start":127.03,"end":152.329,"text":"這個部分我們對於OIU的部分因為OIU過去的基期非常的低然後因為過去有幾年的業務基本上就是處於是非常低迷的階段我們在最近我們也放寬了一個全新的商品給保險業來參與所以這部分我們預期未來在OIU的部分應該會在不管是專區或是在OIU的這些的領域應該會有一些很大的發展空間"},{"start":152.989,"end":179.761,"text":"主委其實在台灣市場現況來看還有哪些因素也會影響到這些業務所得提升或是這個萎縮我想這個我們的境外金融就不管OIU OSU OBU它主要的對象還是針對是外國客戶我想外國客戶他所參考是國際上的比較比如說我們的產品有沒有吸引力還有就是說"},{"start":180.621,"end":204.682,"text":"這部分因為它一定是資金的流動它會去做一個比較所以我們在很多的商品我們必須要跟國際市場要有競爭力所以像這次的話我們也跟我們的業界溝通說我們盡量先在專區做一個放寬讓它的產品能夠跟國際上對接所以剛剛委員提到說什麼影響最大我覺得是國際上面的競爭力相關的影響國際競爭應該是最大的影響"},{"start":207.144,"end":230.263,"text":"其實既然金管會要推動亞洲資產管理中心那相對來說也應該有相對應的這些攻守的對策那對目標客戶的策略目的區分為流財或影資和影資那我請問主委從這兩種客戶面的這個業務質量"},{"start":235.802,"end":264.432,"text":"其所得的這個預估啊你認為流財引資應該是以誰為主啊現階段我們非常非常明確的那個我們有看到很多數據台灣的民間財富這個數字非常的巨大但是由我們國內的金融服務業來管理的這個比例非常的低所以我們在進行這項計畫的時候呢我們第一階段是先以流財為主要的主軸"},{"start":264.892,"end":281.429,"text":"所以說還是以流財為主目前第一階段是以流財為主然後再來我們還是同步的還是有進行相關引資的政策就是說我們只是說現在重點我們會把它放在流財為主要的重點項目那有沒有其他的看法"},{"start":282.47,"end":307.687,"text":"其實我覺得資金它本身是非常非常聰明的它會根據它自己的需求那我覺得主要是因為國人他有很多的財富也許是我們在法規上面不夠具有競爭力所以這次剛剛有提到我們希望透過大規模的法規鬆綁我們在過去這半年來我們鬆綁了應該將近20個法令那特別是對金融商品服務的放寬我想這一部分呢應該是"},{"start":308.747,"end":327.965,"text":"可以有助於國人在做一個理財的時候多一個選項能夠選擇我們本國的金融服務業者來提供資產管理服務五年前香港反送中事件後引發各界對整個亞洲區金融中心移轉的聯想"},{"start":329.426,"end":345.843,"text":"那有香港學者認為美國和西歐投資者撤走主要原因是地緣政治導致某部分的業務香港明顯不適合發展那我請問主委就您的了解"},{"start":346.784,"end":362.314,"text":"幾年來香港亞洲金融中心的地位有沒有受負面影響以導致GFCI全球金融中心指數的城市排名嚴重的倒退 有沒有"},{"start":362.754,"end":390.348,"text":"我想國際上面的金融市場的競爭是非常非常激烈的任何一個結構性的改變都會影響到這個金流的流向我想就以我們看這個財富管理業務而言或是我們資產管理業務而言很明顯的那個香港的另一個主要的競爭對手新加坡那實際上在過去這段期間很多的金流的流動是非常非常明顯我想國際上的競爭實際上這是一個最主要的考量"},{"start":390.928,"end":406.148,"text":"那你認為出走香港的歐美國家海外金融業務以目前台灣的狀況有足夠的吸引力嗎 有沒有其實我覺得資本或是資金它有多重面向的需求"},{"start":406.969,"end":432.546,"text":"假設是相同類型的需求他會尋找一個更有利的方式但是我們在推動這個計畫的時候我在很多的地方也跟外部溝通台灣除了是我們做一個金流的周轉這樣一個功能以外其實很重要的就是我們有產業的投資我想這也是為什麼我們要做一個以台灣特色為主的資產管理中心我們希望能夠滿足各種不同資金需求"},{"start":433.266,"end":461.394,"text":"主委以金管會推動亞洲資產管理中心的發展太陽你認為具備主動以及吸引外資的優勢有這些優勢的公式嗎我覺得台灣有我們的優勢當然也有我們的劣勢我想這是世界各個市場都有我覺得台灣的優勢就是真的台灣的民間財富非常的多"},{"start":461.954,"end":480.001,"text":"我想這部分在各種的統計數據上都非常的明顯的那個那個表達出來那再來第二個其實台灣人的投資意識跟投資的動能其實非常的強那再來就是說我覺得我們過去呢可能是因為法規上面限制比較多我們朝這個方向來走可以有很明顯的"},{"start":481.241,"end":508.981,"text":"對於一些資金會產生吸引力那當然我們必須不可諱言我們跟其他相對於城市型為主的那個金融中心他們有稅上面很大的優惠我想這部分我們可能很難在這方面跟他競爭但是我覺得我們還有其他的優勢可以來特別重要我們台灣有很多可投資的產業這樣喔那又或者是重點還是放在被動留住國人財富的守勢較為保險會不會這樣子"},{"start":511.102,"end":536.432,"text":"這個就是我們的策略執行一定有目標跟階段性那我們常常在講說如果我們對國人資產都無法留下你就很難對外面的資金有更大的吸引力我想這部分我們同步並進但是我們必須很務實的如果說我們針對我們外流的資金做一個吸引我覺得應該是比較低成本而且比較有可行的方向現階段"},{"start":537.532,"end":549.139,"text":"主委就本席的觀察整體來看中國對支撐香港金融地位的策略運用是奏效的"},{"start":550.353,"end":574.237,"text":"但是反觀台北從109年還是GFCI城市的42名但是到了去年和今年的排名則落到73名以及70名那我請問主委賴總統表示對岸中國是境外的敵對勢力那從目前兩岸的地緣政治狀態你認為推動亞洲資產管理中心會不會"},{"start":579.258,"end":595.953,"text":"有相當的困難度任何一個計畫都有它的困難度我想剛才資金是向全世界在競爭我想這部分全世界都在競爭這個資金所以我覺得意思說這部分呢我們會用我們的優勢來克服我們的劣勢所以剛剛講說"},{"start":598.115,"end":614.653,"text":"很多對於國際金融中心的排名我們當然是非常的關注也謝謝他們對我們的一些的期免但是我覺得我們透過這樣的推動其實我們應該是會持續的進步那我請教會不會面臨對岸中國的阻擾 會不會"},{"start":617.176,"end":645.415,"text":"我想資金的部分它會受到各種因素的影響我想它有部分但是我覺得還是看我們自身的條件還有它這個資金想要投資標的屬性來決定好 按照GFCI的排名狀況建構亞洲資產管理中心短期內要奏效甚至於提升較前面的席次的GFCI城市排名請問主委你認為有沒有機會有沒有信心"},{"start":647.236,"end":671.97,"text":"我覺得這應該是因為我們現在其實我不認為台灣在國際的金融市場上是應該是這樣的排名也許是在數據的提供或是說他們在資訊上面的這個不足那我想這部分我們會來努力讓我們整個政策讓全世界知道然後這部分我們可以我是很有信心這個排名會有信心喔好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時16分）謝謝主席。首先請金管會彭主委。","主委，你好。因為媒體報導OIU免稅優惠延長10年，目的是要推動亞洲資產管理中心，那我請問主委，OIU實施免稅優惠對整個國際金融、證券以及保險業務所得的狀況，金管會有沒有統計或評估這些相關業務所得的消長會受到哪些影響？有沒有評估過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在「3 O」裡面，OIU的發展相對是比較晚的，再來就是過去因為疫情的關係，實際上OIU有一陣子的發展受到一些限制，但是因為我們這次推出的亞洲資產管理中心裡面有一個境外金融的整合，部分因為我們的稅制到今年2月5日到期了，所以我們希望再把它持續延長。","有關OIU的部分，我們也看到在國外經驗上有很多機會，比如說這裡面很多商品是保險的商品，特別是境外的外國人可以透過這樣來發展。過去是他們單獨發展，這次透過這個亞洲資產管理中心，會跟其他的OBU、OSU一起做整合，所以這次我們非常感謝財政部，也協助我們把這個法案送進大院審議。"],["林委員德福：換句話說，金管會有沒有評估這個免稅優惠延長的法令能夠提升幾成的業務所得？你們有沒有評估過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：針對OIU的部分，因為過去有幾年它的業務基本上處於非常低迷的階段，所以OIU過去的基期非常低，最近我們放寬了一個全新的商品給保險業參與，所以我們預期OIU的部分，不管是在專區或OIU的領域，應該都會有很大的發展空間。"],["林委員德福：其次，以臺灣市場現況來看，還有哪些因素也會影響到這些業務所得的提升或萎縮？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的境外金融，就是不管OIU、OBU或OSU，它主要還是針對外國客戶，外國客戶所參考的是國際上的比較，比如說我們的產品有沒有吸引力，還有就是這部分因為是資金的流動，他們一定也會去做比較，所以我們很多商品必須在國際市場具有競爭力。因此這次我們也有跟業界溝通，我們儘量先在專區做一個放寬，讓他們的產品能夠跟國際對接。所以剛剛委員提到什麼影響最大，我覺得是國際競爭力的相關影響，換句話說，國際上的競爭應該是最大的影響。"],["林委員德福：接下來，既然金管會要推動亞洲資產管理中心，相對來說也應該有相對應的攻守對策……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["林委員德福：對目標客戶的策略目的區分為留財和引資，我請問主委，從這兩種客戶面的業務質量及所得的預估，你認為留財、引資應該是以誰為主？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現階段我們看到很多數據，非常明確的，臺灣民間財富的數字非常巨大，但是由我們國內金融服務業來管理的比例非常的低，所以我們在進行這項計畫的時候，第一階段是先以留財為主要的主軸……"],["林委員德福：所以還是以留財為主，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前第一階段是以留財為主，再來我們還是有同步進行相關引資的政策，只是現在重點會以留財為主要的重點項目。"],["林委員德福：這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["林委員德福：那有沒有其他的看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我覺得資金它本身是非常聰明的，它會根據自己的需求，我覺得主要是因為國人有很多的財富，也許是我們在法規上面不夠具有競爭力，所以這是剛才有提到，我們希望透過大規模的法規鬆綁，在過去這半年來，我們鬆綁了應該是將近二十個法令，特別是對金融商品服務的放寬，我想這一部分應該是可以有助於國人在做理財的時候，多一個選項，能夠選擇我們本國的金融服務業者來提供資產管理服務。"],["林委員德福：主委，5年前香港反送中事件後，引發各界對整個亞洲區金融中心移轉的聯想，有香港學者認為美國和西歐投資者撤走，主要原因是地緣政治，導致某部分的業務在香港明顯不適合發展。我請問主委，就您的了解，這幾年來香港亞洲金融中心的地位有沒有受負面影響，以導致GFCI全球金融中心指數的城市排名嚴重倒退？"],["彭主任委員金隆：國際上面金融市場的競爭是非常、非常激烈的，任何一個結構性的改變，都會影響到金流的流向，就以我們看財富管理業務而言，或是資產管理業務而言，香港的另一個主要競爭對手新加坡，實際上在過去這段期間，很多的金流流動是非常明顯，我想國際上的競爭，實際上這是一個最主要的考量。"],["林委員德福：你認為出走香港的歐美國家的海外金融業務，以目前臺灣的狀況，有足夠的吸引力嗎？有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我覺得資本或是資金有多重面向的需求，假設是相同類型的需求，它會尋找一個更有利的方式，但是我們在推動這個計畫的時候，我在很多的地方也跟外部溝通，臺灣除了做金流周轉這樣的一個功能以外，其實很重要的是我們有產業的投資。我想這也是為什麼我們要做一個以臺灣特色為主的資產管理中心，我們希望能夠滿足各種不同資金需求。"],["林委員德福：主委，以金管會推動亞洲資產管理中心的發展態樣，你認為有具備主動以及吸引外資這些優勢的共識嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得臺灣有我們的優勢，當然也有我們的劣勢，我想這是世界各個市場都有，我覺得臺灣的優勢真的就是民間的財富非常多，我想這部分在各種的統計數據上都非常明顯的表達出來。第二個，其實臺灣人的投資意識跟投資的動能非常得強。再來，我覺得我們過去可能是因為法規上面的限制比較多，我們朝這個方向走，可以很明顯的對於一些資金會產生吸引力，當然我們不可諱言，我們相對於以城市型為主的金融中心，他們有稅上面很大的優惠，我想這部分，我們可能很難跟他們競爭，但是我覺得我們還有其他的優勢，特別重要的是我們臺灣有很多可投資的產業。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔？或者重點還是放在被動留住國人財富的守勢較為保險，會不會這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這就是我們的策略執行一定有目標跟階段性，我們常常講如果我們對國人資產都無法留下，你就很難對外面的資金有更大的吸引力，我想這部分，我們同步並進。但是我們必須很務實的，如果針對我們外流的資金做一個吸引，我覺得應該是比較低成本，而且比較可行的方向，現階段是如此。"],["林委員德福：主委，就本席的觀察，整體來看，中國對支撐香港金融地位的策略運用是奏效的，但是反觀臺北，從109年還是GFCI城市的42名，但是到了去年和今年的排名，則落到73名以及70名。我請問主委，賴總統表示對岸中國是境外的敵對勢力，從目前兩岸的地緣政治狀態，你認為推動亞洲資產管理中心會不會有相當的困難度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：任何一個計畫都有它的困難度，資金是全世界在競爭，全世界都在競爭這個資金，所以我的意思是，這部分我們會用我們的優勢來克服我們的劣勢。剛剛提到很多對於國際金融中心的排名，我們當然是非常關注，也謝謝他們對我們的一些期勉，但是我覺得我們透過這樣的推動，其實應該是會持續進步。"],["林委員德福：那麼我請教，會不會面臨對岸中國的阻撓？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想資金的部分會受到各種因素的影響，但是我覺得還是看我們自身的條件，還有這個資金想要投資標的的屬性來決定。"],["林委員德福：好，按照GFCI的排名狀況，建構亞洲資產管理中心，短期內要奏效，甚至於提升較前面席次的GFCI的城市排名。請問主委，你認為有沒有機會、有沒有信心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我不認為臺灣在國際的金融市場上應該是這樣的排名，也許是在數據的提供，或是他們在資訊上面的不足，我想這部分我們會來努力，讓全世界知道我們整個政策，這部分我是很有信心這個排名會上升。"],["林委員德福：有信心？好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。","接著請吳秉叡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-6","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","王世堅"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部、中央銀行、國家發展委員會及法務部就「如\n何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行策略（包括國際金融業務 OBU，國際保險業務 OIU，國際證\n券業務 OSU）」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}