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我說立委這樣問你 你說往這方向嘛後來又有立委問你啊你說修完之後 可能一年後要增你沒發現你這左腳踩到右腳 前後是不一的沒有 就是我們講說符合最大主流名義方式現在最大主流名義方式是不收那就是我們的主要最大主流名義不收所以是往不收的 就是不收的嘛可是你現在看起來是修完掉成以後一年後要再增啊不是 就是我們會"},{"start":80.876,"end":98.627,"text":"一年期間是停政一年面穩會完成修法修法會以最大主流民意方向為考量那因為修法是涉及到NCC委員會議那NCC是何意志我不能把我一個人的意見當作NCC的意見所以你提到說最大的民意最大的民意現在就是"},{"start":99.668,"end":119.694,"text":"不收嘛對不對是不是你目前的理解跟你今天在立法院講的就是不收嘛是不是對沒錯來來我給你看我得到信息好像不是這樣啊來我們來看公文你們給了財政部發函財政部給你的文啊他的文的重點是什麼來我們看一下"},{"start":122.119,"end":147.978,"text":"緩徵一年緩徵的理由是你這一年要做什麼辦理業務宣傳財政部還特別提醒你喔你停徵期滿之後要立即恢復收起該項審查費如果叫你去歐約公文叫財政部給你這個函那你今天應該很明確跟民眾講啊你這個停徵是只有一年就是明年的2月5號就開始要重新"},{"start":149.11,"end":174.62,"text":"正說嘛是不是這樣如果照公文來看是不是這樣公文報告 兩點補充 第一點一般領域宣導那是扣合規範法12條的文字我們必須要符合它第二個這個停政一年 我們是停政一年之內我們會來做法規檢討 就是稍微辦法的檢討那如果字不記 假設一年內法規檢討沒有辦法完成的話我們還可以再跟財政部再申請展言"},{"start":175.899,"end":197.816,"text":"那你要早一點給他 給他知道啊那更重要的 沒有沒有 我們要做幾個我們是法治國家嘛 做幾件事情第一個齁 來來 我做一個三個非常具體的這個第一個 你們現在 今天為什麼要討論這個因為你給我們立完一個被查案嘛 對不對是被查案你要撤回去啊對不對 對不對你不撤今天我們也會退回去是不是這樣 法治國家應該這樣處理嘛"},{"start":198.735,"end":221.383,"text":"你都不爭了啊那你現在還送了一個立法院來叫你備查對不對這是法源這個要先拿掉對不對這是累累對不對第二個你要檢討我先我看了一下你是2月12號就給財政部文財政部在14號就給你了耶他說很快喔他跟你一樣他也很尊重民意啊可是你們這個公文的往返公文上面呈現的就是一年後是要再爭的你跟民眾的傳達信息"},{"start":223.064,"end":250.314,"text":"所以我說第一件事情先把你的查詐案撤回去這是第一件事情第二個要跟財政部講我不是一年要收你不要跟民進黨說我們現在說你最大名義是往不收嘛對不對好不好今天很明確喔好不好剛剛跟委員報告講因為財政部還沒回函之前我們必須要用比較相對比較寬鬆的一些字眼財政部同意我們停在一年我們會在一年內來修那個收費辦法"},{"start":252.174,"end":278.188,"text":"只要把所有辦法修回這個假設啦假設修回免徵的情況之外我們也不會再跟財政部再申請一個展延所以這一年內是說我們取得這個時間能夠處理掉這個問題你現在強調最大民意嘛那雖然最新的民意也是就是不曾往這邊走所有的三個要求都很明確啦你看一下喔除了第二點我剛剛講你趕快撤回撤回你這個被查這個案子沒有的話我們今天我相信今天的會議應該也會決定退回啦這個應該會達成"},{"start":281.209,"end":306.81,"text":"那第二個你要撤回這個你這個收費案的時候你要重新檢討當然最好就是不收了嘛那至少你要做到一點要取消用智慧的那一塊那部分我剛剛看你們有在談這一塊嘛對不對能不能做一個言論就至少在智慧的這一塊盡量不要收好不好好盡量不要收那第三個你趕快也跟財政部發一個函另外我要提醒你們再檢討一個重點你知道那幾天為什麼明年春天很多人很生氣"},{"start":309.175,"end":329.204,"text":"他們氣啊 他們說 你去拿我這七寶石塊要做什麼你們NCC的講法是說 要拿來做什麼 水電啦開會的人事會啦 自動辨識系統的建置還有一項 引起最大反彈 訴訟會你拿我人民的錢 說我們人民的錢 跟人民打官司那時候整個是雜鍋了嘛"},{"start":330.948,"end":344.22,"text":"跟我們報告當時確實是有一件以自由民意來進口然後我們跟他有訴訟確實當時是有個案是真實的個案所以你拿我們人民的收費的錢去跟人民打官司更重要官司常常都打輸對不對"},{"start":347.054,"end":374.191,"text":"常常打輸常常打輸的同時最重要 我覺得民眾現在的反感是在你拿我們的錢去打訴訟所以你們如果真的要修 至少把訴訟會這個拿掉 好不好好 把這個訴訟會拿掉另外 我用比較簡短的時間問一個最近大家很關心的就是民視啊用這個AI製作這個緬甸地震這個事情我看你們發了三點聲明嘛我看不只沒有告誡跟勸告耶 那好像很溫柔的提醒而已"},{"start":379.006,"end":401.158,"text":"我看今天沒有時間沒有時間看這個這個你要看過這個他這個影片嘛對不對我相信再說應該很多因為這個很聳動這個為什麼要處理一個AI是一個這個製作是一個新的新的一個技術那電視台到底要不要用這個本來就是好好要去要去討論跟規範的第二更重要的單純就這個事情你看以AI合成這個照片"},{"start":402.59,"end":412.432,"text":"觸目驚心啊 他跟你講啊用AI合成 這個照片是什麼觸目驚心 整排的高樓幾乎全部都倒了道路像是被撕裂 你看這個會造成恐慌"},{"start":415.306,"end":434.513,"text":"跟各位報告這個個案我們已經請該家業者來做意見陳述那後續我們會照我們的標準程序來處理那至於通案上的這個廣電世界運用AI部分我們也目前正在嚴厲應用指引我們希望能盡快把這個指引出來然後讓各家媒體來參與用"},{"start":438.574,"end":461.843,"text":"現階段就是他們要有這個落實他們自己的事實查證跟他們內部的內控的自律機制那這邊我有強調說要他必須要做好這個自律的方面的一些相關該揭示就揭示電視影響力很大嘛那這個事情為什麼這麼重要因為它合成這個畫面非常觸目驚心會不會引起恐慌我們有些台灣人還在緬甸耶"},{"start":463.74,"end":484.253,"text":"昨天不是一個新聞嗎一個受傷我們台灣的婦人不幸不幸往生了嘛 對不對第一個我們台灣跟緬甸都在同樣的一塊OAR大陸這個板塊上面所以這個新聞基本上是引起了一部分這個恐慌而且它是一個假新聞所以它是要處理的好 那我提出我的具體的處理方式我來自媒體嘛我去調了一下"},{"start":485.751,"end":503.74,"text":"你們在11006次這個委員會議的這個紀錄談到民事的時候你們要求他們要聘請兩位專職的編審兩到三位嘛 對不對那個編審都是很大勞啦"},{"start":504.793,"end":534.098,"text":"就當過裁判主任啦或者是總編輯才能夠當編審的我覺得這個決定是好的那現在我就很明確的要求你要去問民事問清楚他的編制有沒有落實因為你要求他做完這個決定之後的次日期的三個月他就要配備嘛第一個有沒有做到有沒有拼第二個更重要的你找了一個大牢有這個編制啊你要讓他發揮功能嘛要尊敬人家嘛所以像這樣一個為什麼會出現這樣一個錯誤的假新聞引起大家恐慌的"},{"start":535.459,"end":541.424,"text":"請編審能夠發揮他的功能 好不好請他發揮功能另外我們就法論法 我們來看這個新聞既然出了問題從法律上去看廣電法第27條第三項的第一款違反法律強制或禁止規定"},{"start":558.354,"end":571.499,"text":"涉違法的六十三之一第五條這個散佈謠言這個假新聞是不是有類似這樣的性質他連罰則都是有的第三項的第四款自播新聞違反了事實的查證的這個原則"},{"start":574.498,"end":599.82,"text":"各位報告我們這塊處理必須要前後一致我們過往這方面的處理都要上委員會議目前我們沒有委員會議所以這邊程序上我們必須要跟過往的我們過往的作為必須會拘束到我們自己所以這邊的裁罰案所以你就該罵嘛你在講說現在沒有足夠的委員可以上禮拜林國成林委員問你還說你要趕快去反映啊你看一下這個法令的規定我們已經修法通過啦修法通過啦"},{"start":603.376,"end":606.981,"text":"我們在去年的7月16號修正第4條11月15號修正的第16條12月1號已經正式實施了明定三個月內要補足"},{"start":617.543,"end":638.556,"text":"補足是什麼時候 今年的3月1號 欸你現在四月了 過一個月了之前在行政院啊 行政院要提名對不對 你是代理主委你要趕快去提醒啊你這不是失職了嗎 各位報告 台灣民主黨有提一個那個案子我們就是有那個程序 我們已經報到院裡頭去了 所以院裡頭應該知道"},{"start":639.224,"end":646.281,"text":"所以你去提醒 那真正失職的在行政院院長喔記不提醒嘛 你看你的業務你剛講到 你說你要裁罰要討論 委員會都沒辦法開"},{"start":649.44,"end":671.852,"text":"立法院明定的你要趕快補提名時間都過了好不好不要讓院長繼續失職下去好 謝謝委員那民視這個事情我剛講的讓大佬讓那些邊省可以發揮應有的功能請他們要去注意不要再發生假新聞或者驚悚的新聞這對人民是不好的第二 該有的罰者要罰你不能雙標"},{"start":674.333,"end":686.351,"text":"沒有我們中天如果發生在中天要關台關一次我們過往做的程序上要上委員會這邊我們必須要做要一致的處理所以你說要等委員會OK那就不要讓院長這句事趕快提醒他趕快提名好不好好謝謝謝謝張祺凱"}]}},{"id":"159847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/af9684606460b5822f1a5efcf962bbfe5a0b63045814e5f8332f76852384cc9e20cac61ede387e4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"09:06:00 - 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謝謝那我們本日會議我們是邀請這個退伏會的這個來報告業務概況並被質詢那因為同時我們今天審查這個114年度附屬單位預算關於退伏會主管的非營業基金兩項的作業基金案那我們就請原主委就業務概況及預算案兩個分別進行報告"},{"start":2135.444,"end":2149.783,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好承蒙各位委員先進上會期對本會各項施政工作的指導跟支持謹致崇高的敬意回顧過去一年本會陸力推動各項服務照顧工作"},{"start":2150.384,"end":2178.226,"text":"未来对麦总统健康台湾的政策指导及因应农民高龄化趋势引进智慧科技发展先进医疗技术充实农家能量导入智慧照顾营造长者优质预养环境并为照顾青壮退出役官兵积极办理就学就业辅导扩大产学产训合作稳定就业以安定经济生活以下就本会核心工作"},{"start":2178.806,"end":2184.662,"text":"就醫等各項執行現況與未來工作重點向各位委員再要報告"},{"start":2186.072,"end":2214.99,"text":"工作执行现况创新医疗精进长照留任医师守护偏乡发展尖端智慧医疗提升医疗技术水准台北台中高雄荣总均已设置细胞治疗GDP实验室台北及台中荣总为全国八家合格执行健保抗体细胞治疗的医学中心并台中荣总有两项全球第一及十项全国第一细胞治疗临床实验"},{"start":2215.911,"end":2232.768,"text":"台北荣总建置全球第14座重粒子癌症治疗中心并与美国梅约医学中心开展重粒子医疗基础研究为台美合作创造更高的成就也为全球癌症治疗做出重要的贡献"},{"start":2233.769,"end":2255.411,"text":"各级容院为积极疏解急诊室占留率优化手术室加护病房及一般病床使用的效率设置急诊后送专属病房提供出院一站式服务有效改善急诊住院占留率例如台北龙总急诊流管区空间大设置急诊专属加护病房"},{"start":2256.499,"end":2279.918,"text":"调节急诊病人另外台中荣总统一签床作业成立门诊治疗中心建置急诊病人就医历程管理系统各级荣院就能有效缩解急诊战略台中荣总成立全台唯一的达文西全计划观摩中心唯创手术达到将近7000例第五项请参阅请翻词页"},{"start":2281.178,"end":2304.05,"text":"新增12项新南向国家合作意向书备忘录三所荣总国际医疗服务人数即一万两千余人次提升我国医疗在国际社会的人见度让美国新闻周刊Newsweek公布2025年全球前250家最佳医院台北荣总是连续两年全台唯一上榜的医院"},{"start":2305.151,"end":2323.992,"text":"周全高龄友善照顾精进长照医疗整合各级农业提供85岁以上高龄长者设有农民专属服务柜台农家住民专则就于绿色通道另外四所农种提供75岁以上农民优先挂号批价与牵床服务"},{"start":2324.733,"end":2353.805,"text":"也设立24个社区社区式日照中心291处施治社区及预防延缓适能据点推动高龄医学整合性照护协助2757位出院个案及时衔接长照服务设置住宿式长照机构及护理之家导入智慧床垫等科技开发居家医疗整合照护服务平台整合医疗社区式长照与居家服务照护"},{"start":2354.844,"end":2376.512,"text":"第四請參閱加強偏鄉補助獎勵提高偏鄉志願能量自一百一三年一月一號起已將預理公民台中分院特約醫師診療報酬每診次調高為五千元衛福部偏鄉醫師留院獎勵計劃補助偏鄉醫院監管事業本會統籌款補助榮總分院科經營團隊醫師每年每人一百八十萬元"},{"start":2383.627,"end":2404.762,"text":"发展多元照顾模式 优化住宿机构服务 善尽社会责任 共享服务资源113年底 农家整体床位占床率达80.42% 农家开放一般民众床位有1691床积极作为提升占床的成效 实现资源共享"},{"start":2405.953,"end":2423.269,"text":"配合政府整体福利的政策农家成立关怀据点板桥等五所农家附设日照中心马兰农家、屏东农家安置地方政府转介身心障碍民众有300条结合社会慈善共创温馨农家"},{"start":2424.17,"end":2446.605,"text":"高雄等三所农家甚至非营利幼儿园共收托160位幼儿透过老幼共学、世代共荣、活化农家环境设施透过共荣社会化、扩展社会交流、农家规划各项文康竞赛等活动串联慈善志工、益助关怀服务与长者互动共乐"},{"start":2447.608,"end":2462.139,"text":"接班事業引進智慧科技升級健康照護板橋榮嘉引進AI零接觸智能照護系統參加衛生研究院113年度機構導入智慧科技應用與高靈照顧計畫榮獲優良獎"},{"start":2464.321,"end":2492.632,"text":"完善访事关怀照顾强化多元服务效能113年将现有荣兴志工3184个人编成114个队绵密连接社会资源协力推动就学等工作并对单身独居或双老家庭的特交需照顾荣民券主动协助公设不活动侦测器及跌倒侦测器至远距居家照顾系统强化荣民券居家安全保障"},{"start":2493.212,"end":2515.492,"text":"综合考量各荣福处服务人力比例与各县市服务区的服务员检讨充实服务人力及责任区域调整增加招募退出于官兵担任社区志愿服务组长21位及200位志工落实照顾经济者弱势主动开办荣民及宜眷微型保险理赔最高30万元"},{"start":2516.653,"end":2542.843,"text":"今年將提高納保人數到8000人以擴大投保成效提升學歷、打造技能、適性輔導投入職場辦理推薦就讀二專、二技、四技及大學並提供就學進修補助協助提升專業智能協助退出役官兵規劃職涯發展方向辦理職業適性評量職涯諮詢、借貼官兵、職涯探索人"},{"start":2545.031,"end":2568.417,"text":"成功推介就業需求官兵11171人次就業為協助退出役官兵及眷屬提升職技能力協助就創業執行中心規劃辦理各職類的訓練班隊另為鼓勵在地訓練在地就業提供職人訓補助測試退出役官兵可依個人職涯規劃選擇參加公告補助訓練班隊訓惠就業率100%"},{"start":2574.044,"end":2599.371,"text":"113年辦理照護員訓練結訓前並邀請醫療照護相關機構辦理盜辦徵才未來是衛福部護理人員法修法通過後本會將配合配訓護理處理員積極走訪各縣市大專院校及優質企業推動產學合作班今年將開發高階人才碩士產學合作資源擴大產學合作成效"},{"start":2600.211,"end":2605.575,"text":"依用人企業資源基準規劃產訓合作訓練的課程就業率100%開拓農場經營發展提升事業營運績效113年因地震颱風因素影響民眾赴農場休憩的意願並推出住戶特惠"},{"start":2617.745,"end":2642.221,"text":"等相关的方案参加国内万旅长积极行销113年旅客数仍达近135万人依观光族统计清净农场为国内最受欢迎农场评比第一名三次业为提供舒适安全旅游环境113年即投入4.5亿元完成清净农场麻树秀的场地等整修完成宜兰站"},{"start":2642.901,"end":2650.67,"text":"等委託民間廠商經營道商以多元化經營農場創造地方繁榮進進投資事業營運目標113年稅前營運71億元較113年同期成長11億元達全年目標133.37%安置率41.9%超過本會持股率33.17%"},{"start":2663.604,"end":2685.886,"text":"未来工作重点的规划以推动尖端精准医疗发展创新智慧服务台北文总与国际扬名交通大学合作设置加速器型膨中子补货治疗仪于118年启用成为全球唯一同时提供重粒子与膨中子治疗的医院有效增加癌症治疗量能"},{"start":2686.888,"end":2695.728,"text":"台中农种植子治疗中心在115年2月21号竣工提供国家级癌症医疗服务提升中部地区癌症治疗水准"},{"start":2698.154,"end":2717.581,"text":"各級容業發展高齡病房智慧醫療模式及高齡整合門診智慧醫療服務逐步建立人工智慧演算平台與深層式人工智慧應用擴大科技投資降低醫療工作負荷台中榮總與鴻海集團合作"},{"start":2718.181,"end":2740.573,"text":"开发AI护理机器人于2025年辉达GTC大会首次亮相结合纵容数据跟黄海的技术协助护理师处理病房导引等日常重复性的工作预计可以减少30%的护理工时争取提高医治待遇充实偏乡医疗人力以健勤卫护部检讨修订"},{"start":2741.621,"end":2759.729,"text":"公立衛生醫療機構特約兼任醫師診療報酬知己數額表的知己數額上限以獲衛福部支持援助民族及離島地區醫事公費生分方服務的專案認定配援地區醫院新增育理鳳林及台東分院"},{"start":2760.487,"end":2778.987,"text":"简化就医理培流程提升便民服务效能各荣总局分院已全面与受选工会完成签约台北荣总局开发2.0版自动借阶系统直接传输民众授权提供的医疗资料其余荣院在今年4月起陆续全面推行2.0版"},{"start":2780.609,"end":2795.408,"text":"营造友善高龄环境建构安老一养家园推动提升私自照顾量能强造万我园区中层计划使农家成为全国结合安养养护及私自照顾最优质的综合型机构"},{"start":2796.721,"end":2820.06,"text":"今年导入智慧床垫828床预计在117年将剩余养护床均改用智慧床垫今年预划也将荣家养护的手动护理床全数汰换为电动护理床呼吁重度养护自动翻身床打造住民舒适安全的一氧环境"},{"start":2821.409,"end":2847.704,"text":"為完善各農家無線網路基礎設施113年已完成台北等8所農家建置的工作今年持續推進板橋等另外8所農家Wi-Fi無線網路建置藉由16所農家Wi-Fi無線網路全數完成建置奠定智慧科技照護運用的基礎運用大數據分析以建立精準照護模式各農家持續配合"},{"start":2848.564,"end":2866.779,"text":"荣总荣家急诊远距医疗品质提升计划透过建构完善视讯软体超音波设备进驻荣家进行双向远距医疗咨询服务减少荣家住民外送就医造福荣家厂辈得到最及时妥适的照顾"},{"start":2868.53,"end":2895.411,"text":"第五 争取委外护理以约用方式禁用并规划合理薪资友善职场等相关措施期望提升护理人员稳定性及农家照顾的品质第六 请参阅创新安心育老平台强化孤老服务照顾研制育娶童工全员整合照顾沟通协作的平台本会参与2024总统杯黑客森竞赛"},{"start":2896.331,"end":2914.732,"text":"融合賴總統班政卓越團隊未來以本會原來的服務照顧訪視系統和平台導入創新的安心育老行動科技協作平台有效整合在地資源鏈接公私立部門等管理醫療長照社會福利等機關與家屬"},{"start":2917.113,"end":2939.526,"text":"并辅以独居及双老家庭荣名卷装设的远距居家照顾系统及跌倒侦测设备借新系统的开发以服务对象需求更能提供多元化、即时性、个别化的服务扩大房宿的量能达到一点生变、多点资源服务理念第二项请参阅"},{"start":2940.816,"end":2946.484,"text":"推動居民專長轉型快速融入職場脈動從113年7月起規劃退職與官兵居民專長轉型作業編成跨部會專業工作小組全案預計在今年5月底"},{"start":2955.776,"end":2973.694,"text":"进行采购作业115年12月完成伪商建制居民专长转型对照表116年1月1号正式启用各容服务将可透过平台协助退出役官兵依其专长查询适合转型的民间职业"},{"start":2974.878,"end":2996.057,"text":"优化油气环境管理促进永续经营发展经营今年继续投入1.49亿元优化农场各项服务同步办理七兰等伟多民间厂商经营造商预计可引进6亿元资金提升农场油气与环境优化工作促进观光与农业的双重发展"},{"start":2997.674,"end":3023.973,"text":"配合2050年净零排放政策及达成减碳目标清净农场率先完成温室气体盘查第三方验证作业董会转投资客运业115年4月完成盘查登录积极推动公车电动化提升减碳成效农场盘点规划潜在造林及碳汇目标致力于净零排放兼顾生态保育与经济效益的双赢"},{"start":3024.773,"end":3036.642,"text":"配合公司治理环境永续等法规精进持续办理转投资失业人员在职进修进行各项政策宣导掌握营运状况提升经营绩效"},{"start":3038.41,"end":3064.609,"text":"坚定荣民爱国意识宣导维护国家安全中共近期借多重手段强化对台工作企图吸收拉拢我国现役退役军人利用黑道帮派地下钱庄掩护公司公庙团体民间社团五大管道透由退役拉拢现役网络勾连金钱利诱债务胁迫等四大手法及国家认同等认知作战"},{"start":3065.45,"end":3089.462,"text":"造成国安风险本会制作宣导资料持续深化退役军人爱国意识运用现有宣导的机制肯谈会等时机加强宣导提醒客专现行相关的法规维护国家安全深化国际退协交流扩展互访友好盟谊本会致力于加强与国际退伍军人组织的合作透过参访"},{"start":3090.851,"end":3113.75,"text":"退府机构宣扬从公报勋理念提升我国国际认同与能见度因地缘政治变化积极拓展民主人权价值友邦合作协议为我国在国际间发声协议退出于官兵的辅导安置是长期联系性的工作因高龄社会的需求提升长寿能量外并融合智慧科技"},{"start":3114.471,"end":3139.543,"text":"高点医学与照顾体系跨域的整合导致安心日老月龄共好全人照顾同时不断精进各项就学就业就医就养及生活照顾无误的措施致力让曾经为国奉献的特殊观念拥有国家最优质最完善的照顾以上报告敬请各位委员先进不吝指教祝各位委员先进健康如意报告完毕接续"},{"start":3141.926,"end":3166.339,"text":"接續做本會114年度附屬單位預算的報告本會為落實政府賦予妥善照顧退出役官兵的政策設置有國軍退出役官兵安置基金以及農民醫療作業基金113年度依基金的收支保管應用辦法及營運目標審慎執行的結果勝於"},{"start":3169.997,"end":3193.303,"text":"分别为19亿444万9千元及50亿8010万9千元接续请本会会议会议处处长就114年度施政重点主管附属单位的预算编列情形向各位委员报告也敬请指导跟支持谢谢现在请会议处处长"},{"start":3199.639,"end":3223.828,"text":"主席 各位委員先進縣警就本會主管國軍退出役官兵安置基金及農民醫療作業基金一百一十四年度業務計畫重點與預算編列情形災暴如後國軍退出役官兵安置基金致力於輔導國軍退出役官兵就業與精進農業生產及投資事業管理其提升經營績效用作配合募賓制推動各項就學就業全班規劃"},{"start":3224.608,"end":3242.226,"text":"所需之稳定裁员永续发展积极落实基金制设置功能114年度的业务计划重点一产学合作增进学能提供就学补助奖励4900人次鼓励获取专业学能提升职场竞争力"},{"start":3242.987,"end":3250.713,"text":"於請參閱二產學合作打造技能資訊中心辦理自辦訓練1650人次委外訓練800人次職業訓練補助3000人次請分次業三公司協力促進長期穩定就業農福處設置就業服務站"},{"start":3265.044,"end":3273.67,"text":"針對個案需求適性推介就業8700人次提供促進退儲役官兵穩定就業津貼5954人 激勵重返職場請翻次頁4"},{"start":3280.656,"end":3285.963,"text":"農業產學交流及永續經營運用產學資源辦理智慧農業講習輔導農民從農培育農業人才改善油氣設施建構安全場域"},{"start":3294.835,"end":3312.81,"text":"持續提升農場旅宿品質及優化工程環境工作同步強化水土保持設施建構安心完善的旅遊環境六推展優質活動積極拓展國內外行銷透過多元管道及參加國際旅展積極對外行銷"},{"start":3314.232,"end":3329.674,"text":"請翻次頁7強化安全管控促進永續經營持續督導各公司應將維安列為重點4項運用科技化管理作為落實管控機制114年預算編列情形1"},{"start":3330.595,"end":3335.079,"text":"收支於處總收入編列29億4216萬2千元較113年度減少約10.42%總支出編列20億8772萬元較113年度增加約3.58%本期剩餘8億5444萬2千元較113年度減少4億1446萬2千元"},{"start":3356.818,"end":3384.719,"text":"已請參議請翻次頁二固定資產建設改良擴充編列兩億四千九百四十六萬四千元更新各項旅遊器設施與教學設備較一百一十三年度增加九千零九十六萬八千元三資金轉投資配合各公司增資計劃編列投資金額一億元請翻次頁農民醫療作業基金提供退出役官兵及民眾優質健康照護"},{"start":3385.419,"end":3406.824,"text":"推動醫學教學訓練及研究以厚植農民醫療體系競爭力及提升服務品質114年度業務計畫重點一建構長照照護網絡提供整合性照護各級農業提供失智症整合門診與住院失智共同照護服務"},{"start":3407.964,"end":3427.289,"text":"建立長照機構管理系統 發展居家醫療整合照護服務平台三 醫療住宿長照3137床 使用智慧床墊有效降低離床跌倒及入窗發生力辦理醫事人員長照培訓及照顧服務員訓練 加強與學校產學合作"},{"start":3431.519,"end":3457.307,"text":"建置農民輔具服務網絡出院輔具無縫銜接服務各級農業辦理安寧緩和醫療專業教育提供安寧門診育育醫療照護諮商等服務請翻次頁二落實三級醫療強化服務量能本會整合4所農民總醫院12所農總分院及16所農家保健組建構農民三級醫療體系"},{"start":3461.468,"end":3466.05,"text":"114年度預計門診974萬7459人次較上年度增加4.33%住院360萬6659人日較上年度減少約0.2%3.發展智慧醫療114年度預計完成各項醫學研究共計2060案"},{"start":3486.857,"end":3511.008,"text":"台北、台中及高雄农种设置细胞治疗GDP实验室积极发展再生医学,请翻词页自110年6月推动农种农家急诊远距医疗品质提升计划共计服务3116人次,减少转送医院比例达49.20%"},{"start":3514.116,"end":3525.508,"text":"四 精進設施設備友善就醫環境台北農總與國立陽明交通大學合作設置加速器型膨中子補貨治療於預計於118年啟用台中農總子子治療中心預計115年2月竣工"},{"start":3533.592,"end":3537.074,"text":"114年度規劃購置1000萬以上醫療儀器 既有單光紙、電腦、斷層掃描儀等13項請翻次頁2.114年度預算編列情形1.收支餘出總收入編列847億9198萬9千元較113年度增加6.82%總支出編列815億4千零1萬"},{"start":3561.405,"end":3580.573,"text":"四千九百零一萬一千元較一百一十三年度增加約百分之七點一八本期剩餘三十二億四千兩百九十七萬八千元較一百一十三年度減少四千六百四十萬兩千元於群參業群番次業二固定資產建設改良擴充"},{"start":3581.613,"end":3584.937,"text":"編列61億240萬4千元包括專案計劃27億7028萬3千元一般建築及設備計劃33億3212萬1千元較113年度增加5億5225萬5千元移群參閱"},{"start":3603.057,"end":3620.024,"text":"請翻次頁 事節與本會國軍退儲役官兵安置基金及農民醫療作業基金依據基金收支保管及運用辦法省剩營運力求產生剩餘 並能循環運用永續發展對於國軍退儲役官兵就業技能專長培訓"},{"start":3621.184,"end":3641.919,"text":"就業媒合、國家醫學發展及農民券醫療照護等卻有注意因應募賓制推行及國家長照需求將結合前瞻思維持續精進提升輔導退出於官兵就業量能及服務品質敬請各位委員先進不吝指正與支持報告完畢恭請指導"},{"start":3645.681,"end":3667.581,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在開始詢答那今天我們的本會委員5加2然後非本會委員4分鐘那我們10點半這個發言登記截止現在9點半那因為我們本日議程有預算案的審議所以我們今天不處理臨時提案好 那現在請羅美婷委員上台質詢"},{"start":3676.303,"end":3678.589,"text":"謝謝主席 有請原主委"},{"start":3688.201,"end":3700.375,"text":"主委好 主委今天您在報告的時候有提到就是說我們輔導會為了協助退儲役官兵跟眷屬可以提升這個技職的能力 協助就業或創業所以我們這個執訓中心有規劃辦理各職類的訓練班隊"},{"start":3706.081,"end":3716.249,"text":"那我們也看到就是說在2024年的時候我們的這個受培訓的這個人數呢有2575人那我看到這個102年其實我們也培訓了2552人"},{"start":3723.795,"end":3736.883,"text":"那所以這個培訓的這個人次呢看起來是還不錯有2000多人可是本期有看到說其實呢我們這個報名的人數呢更是這個踴躍我看到2024年跟2023年其實我們都有高達6300多人來報名可是我們呢入訓的人數呢只有一半"},{"start":3745.007,"end":3757.351,"text":"差不多是三千人左右那當然本席知道說其實這一個錄取的這一個人數呢可能還有需要做身份資格的認定或者是做還有排序那甚至我們還要經過考試才能夠做這個錄取喔可是我覺得說這個"},{"start":3761.252,"end":3779.399,"text":"人數呢 落差還是蠻大好 報名人數有六千多人實際上我們呢 錄訊的人數呢只有一半而已所以我在想說 是不是說有些其實他是符合資格的可是因為這個班級的這個班數不足所以呢 可能就被刷掉了有沒有這種狀況呢"},{"start":3781.781,"end":3806.874,"text":"請問主委部長委員我跟委員報告我們開班直接說開班它最低人數有一個標準就要10個人它才開班所以沒有到達這個標準的話我們通常週把會延長它報名的時間把這時間拉長一些讓人數能夠夠這樣的路訊就不會那麼低第二個就是協助轉介轉介到其他的相關的一個執訊的一個班隊來受訓"},{"start":3810.235,"end":3828.127,"text":"目前是這樣採取這些做法我們會照委員的指導入訓的人數我們盡量能夠提升是主委我所看到的就是說我可能這部分可能處長會比較清楚因為我所看到就是說好就像剛剛主委所提到的像我們每一個班其實他都有一個訓兒"},{"start":3829.068,"end":3849.295,"text":"我有看到一般就是20人或是30人類似這樣子那本席所認為的就是說會不會就是說因為我們訓兒人數的限制所以造成就是說我們報名的人數有高達6000多人可是能夠真正到訓練班去上課的其實只有報名人數的一半"},{"start":3851.016,"end":3865.636,"text":"除了我們剛才所提到的就是說你可能有資格認定有要考試等等你才能夠進到這個班可是我在想說有將近一半的人報名了可是沒有辦法參加這訓練班真正的原因是什麼我想是不是處長要來回答一下這部分"},{"start":3867.984,"end":3871.585,"text":"委員好 我是就學界會處處長 池碧蘭謝謝委員關心這個議題事實上我們根據我們的統計我們退水於官兵有一些的這個職訓班隊報名會看起來是供不應求那是因為我們過去在對於每一個人報名的一個次數沒有做一個限制然後他因為他想要都要入取增加入取機會所以一次報很多班那但是我們現在已經做限制你一個人最多就只能夠報三個班"},{"start":3896.634,"end":3905.261,"text":"來降低這個甲性需求那第二個點還有因為我們執運中心最主要都希望培養他的技能將來增加他的就業競爭力到業界能夠實際去操作所以我很多的執訓的需要工作崗位一個人一個工作崗位但是我硬體設施場地的限制所以我們這個但是我們已經知道"},{"start":3917.711,"end":3942.91,"text":"有一些班隊非常熱門我們已經盡量在檢討他的流入增加他的一個這個工作崗位的訓練的一個量能那當然因為我們畢竟執訓中心還是只有自辦原則上就是2500那我們還有會外執訓補助所以每一年我們其實有三天多人都運用這個管道而且是全國各地都可以去受訓的那還有勞動部的各分署我們都可以鼓勵他們去參訓來滿足他們的一個參訓的一個需求"},{"start":3946.232,"end":3968.012,"text":"那如果真正對於這個超過這個 我沒有辦法 我就是要報這個班 或者是說我沒有辦法進入的我會協助他們去轉 轉班 轉到其他的班 一定會讓他有訊 以上報告所以處長的意思是說 其實我們有高達六千多人的這個報名的人數 其實有很多 其實他們是重複"},{"start":3969.213,"end":3985.118,"text":"就是说他可能不是因为我们过去没有限制你只能挑一个班级来去报考有可能就是都开放所以比如说他可能一个人报了十个班二十个班都有可能所以就造成这报名的人数其实他是可能有一个人他可能报了很多班"},{"start":3985.658,"end":3990.421,"text":"所以造成這報名人數這麼的高所以我們從數據上看來會覺得說奇怪了為什麼報名人數這麼踴躍我們居然錄訊的人數就只有一半所以真的原因是來自於這裡那再來還有我有看到說現在很夯的這個無人機的這個技術操作我發現說其實很多人有去報名那我有看到譬如說OK有一個班次他其實他的這個訊額其實大概只有20或30人可是有一半"},{"start":4012.315,"end":4026.764,"text":"百多人去報名 可是當然我們只能錄取二三十人可能有些人就沒有辦法參與 也許他資格符合可能因為排序的關係 可能就會排除在外像這個的話我們有沒有叫做正班的 因為非常的還有看到探足跡調查課程其實報名人數也很多 類似這種課程我們有沒有想說以後要來正班"},{"start":4038.472,"end":4050.001,"text":"謝謝委員我們以後會考慮特別是無人機是符合現在當前政府的政策跟那個產業的一個需求我們因為量能的關係我現在都是基礎的訓練跟專業的訓練我們分開來那我們確實現在如果不夠我會試礦我們已經跟中興講好試礦會增班這個沒有問題那再來還有我有發現也有一些班級他其實開班的這個"},{"start":4063.511,"end":4080.563,"text":"分部其實並不是那麼的平均比如說有些就集中 剛才我所提到的是像這個ESG探足跡的這調查課程其實幾乎都是集中在北部來開班其實中南部中南部甚至東部我發現其實班次都班數都非常的少像這個的話這開班的這個"},{"start":4084.125,"end":4095.351,"text":"就是你所在地的這個平衡我想這個可能都是要來特別注意的部分那當然我們開這個班級當然是希望說我們的退儲役官兵在未來的職業方面能夠有一個新的發展所以我們能夠積極的輔導他們進入到新的領域我想這都是我們輔導會應該是要做的部分只是我有看到就是說我們有心要做的就最好也希望就是說在開班也好或者是說在訓練也好"},{"start":4112.799,"end":4120.162,"text":"我們能夠做到最周全OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝委員長好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝主委那接下來我們請黃仁委員有請原主委我請主委 謝謝"},{"start":4141.628,"end":4159.658,"text":"黃委員好我們過去一直以來到現在我們有關於這個花東的這個退不回對花東醫療的一個提升那是否提升當然我們這個部分目前來講我們還是要做一個探討那對於退不回的這個農業"},{"start":4162.371,"end":4182.102,"text":"這個農家的體系是台灣最健全的一個醫院那對於花東的醫療非常的缺乏非常需要退補會的醫療體系的支持跟提升那本期相信退補會絕對全力支持建立完善的花東醫療的體系"},{"start":4183.883,"end":4200.548,"text":"但是在客觀的條件問題是要如何的解決那需要退補會提出構想那比如說我們的負病比根據衛福部去年的12頁的統計北農整體的負病比為7.6但是北農鳳林分業為10.4"},{"start":4213.034,"end":4241.954,"text":"北農台東分院為11.3 義理分院更高達12如果和台東的其他的醫院來比的話數字都是偏高的所以我要請教這個主委未來未來我們要把這一些的醫療體系能夠分配到花東花東更能夠完善這是一個花東"},{"start":4243.442,"end":4250.278,"text":"目前來講都是他們的心聲也最需要的啊 諸位 你們有沒有夠想 你們"},{"start":4251.383,"end":4279.46,"text":"能不能寫出一個未來的構想的報告給我一份那我們逐步裡面來探討然後提升花東的醫療體系主委你回答一下主委謝謝委員對我們偏鄉花東這三個醫院的醫療的一個關心我想剛剛講的整個的一個計畫怎麼提升我會請北榮他們完成相關的計畫然後再呈一個委員"},{"start":4280.52,"end":4305.692,"text":"這個裡面有關醫護人力這部分我們目前我們16所榮院整個的護病比就醫護人力我們是符合衛福部現在頒的標準當然是沒辦法做到最好那我們有關於這些醫護人力的補充我們會按照偏鄉醫療現在這三個分院衛福部也同意把它"},{"start":4307.273,"end":4309.796,"text":"從去年以來都有採取一些措施第三部分就是有關於他們的薪資跟待遇我們也都做了調整剛剛我在業務報告裡面也報了"},{"start":4328.457,"end":4354.034,"text":"從3435元調高到5000元然後對他們的獎勵金的撥比的上限從85到92然後科技營的團隊醫師一年都有180萬元這個就希望能夠留住人才把他們希望能夠多留任然後也按照衛福偏鄉醫師留任獎勵的計劃補助育理分院每一年也是180萬台東分院是120萬"},{"start":4356.596,"end":4357.656,"text":"因為大醫院都在搶人"},{"start":4377.045,"end":4394.302,"text":"然後變成了在這個花東這個地區裡面變成遷乏了人才、醫療體系所以我們希望能夠就是說以工分比的角度第二個盡量留用到在地的這些人才"},{"start":4394.895,"end":4406.622,"text":"能夠再繼續的能夠在這邊的留用好不好那希望能夠把花東的醫療能夠更提升因為這就是花東的新生好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好"},{"start":4408.513,"end":4432.534,"text":"那有關於這個退卜會所屬的農場的能力的資源退卜會所屬農場經營原住民土地分布在21個鄉鎮那5個農場經營的原住民土地面積大約在5000公頃退卜會的土地應用一定要尊重原住民的文化和當地原住民維持良好的互動"},{"start":4433.474,"end":4458.485,"text":"盡量提供他們工作機會和提高合作的機會本期先以輔導會首屬的福州山、清淨及武林等三高三農場為列三高三農場每年特以特定時節迎接大量人潮唯受到地處邊緣、交通不便的影響三高三農場員工缺額"},{"start":4460.726,"end":4487.086,"text":"的契額力始終居高不下那最嚴重的比如這個福壽山農場契額力將近達到三成對服務的品質造成不利的影響所以本席建議無論從土地周邊鄰鄰住戶的角度原住民相信都非常熟悉當地環境也有感情的共鳴所以退不回的在"},{"start":4488.354,"end":4511.221,"text":"針對高山農場應該優先禁用原住民鄉親那研議如何提升原住民職工比例但不僅是有利於農場的經營的運作也促進在地原住民的就業保障原住民的工作權及經濟生活營造商業的條件能不能可以這樣子來做"},{"start":4514.512,"end":4531.982,"text":"各位委員報告我們農場禁用的職工我們是以退出役官兵跟原住民的職地優先提高原住民的就業率而且農場他們都不定期去拜會部落然後積極招攬人才而且宣傳徵才的一些資訊"},{"start":4533.203,"end":4554.25,"text":"那目前清淨農場113年去年還榮獲了原委會原民會所頒發超額禁用原住民的一個獎勵有關薪資待遇所有的職缺我們起薪皆高於勞動拘整法最低的工資1.1倍這個是符合行政院113年政府作為加薪引薪的薪資"},{"start":4555.63,"end":4579.623,"text":"對這些政策 那剛剛委員所指導的我們會加強跟原住民尤其是附近的部落的一個拜會跟聯繫好 我們再以台東的農場為例了這個台東農場的這個影印的績效你還滿意嗎那本市認為既然台東農場具備油漆娛樂的功能應該要藉由當地"},{"start":4580.283,"end":4597.477,"text":"地理及人文優勢的創造觀光特色比如融入原住民文化的尾邁點也可以盡量與當地的原民團體合作打造亮點而且台東地區原住民榮民佔比例高達35.94%第二類退儲役官兵中原住民佔比例高達50.19%"},{"start":4609.466,"end":4632.956,"text":"所以退不回如果能妥善應用相關能力不只在就業輔導方面壓力可以減輕對於台東農場的升級轉型也比較有最大的注意我們也請台東農場廠長拜會台東農場附近周邊所有的原住民的一些機構一些單位怎麼樣加強雙方的一些互動先開始啟動"},{"start":4634.158,"end":4644.923,"text":"好 那其他的我就用書面的來再跟你回應好不好你再用書面的回答我 實行一宿 謝謝謝謝黃委員 接下來請王定宇委員謝謝主席 麻煩主委"},{"start":4664.468,"end":4690.585,"text":"有請主任 謝謝方委員好 各位辛苦先謝謝退府會在前幾天有一群澳洲的朋友去看了你們在往遼北或者是永康的榮家對於裡面設置的設施跟照護的狀況其實連澳洲回來的人"},{"start":4691.325,"end":4711.891,"text":"他們看到都覺得應該有學習的地方所以這個是特別感謝退伍會那我也去看了那邊收容的我們的長輩們其實以一個600個收容量的場域可以達到那樣子的不管是生活條件衛生品質大概算標杆但是是不划算的我們的收費其實很低"},{"start":4712.651,"end":4734.04,"text":"那因為收費地後面還排了一千四百多個人等著要進來很多人排隊我會建議退府會這個不是我今天要問的主題我建議退府會把每一個單位成本它是屬於失智的我們那邊叫它樂智因為失智的長輩還是長輩他會生氣所以失智的成本以及失能的成本那以及這一個"},{"start":4735.16,"end":4753.821,"text":"像我們那邊有夫妻兩個長輩一起住的他都能夠治理生活的成本每個成本計算出來我們的收費跟成本之間的落差差額多大那這個差額有的是我們的預算補貼比方說我們榮民弟兄由公費來補貼那有的是由地方政府那事實上我看到"},{"start":4754.662,"end":4780.962,"text":"你們沒有充分的反應成本縱使是全自費的你們的收費大概也比坊間少了25%所以成本的概念要有如果它是一個事業體你沒有成本的概念它就是一個就是一個大家都進不去進去的人當然過得不錯我會建議先把成本計算出來那我們就可以發現它跟現在市場上我們的經營成本上的比較這個我們下次可以來研究這個題目我還是謝謝我們榮家那邊對這些長輩照顧得非常好"},{"start":4785.326,"end":4800.301,"text":"這是第一個第二個我們看一下隆起工廠這塊地隆起工廠在民國60年左右他當時是用獎勵投資條例"},{"start":4801.903,"end":4816.974,"text":"那由獎勵投資條例來進行設置當時好像是因應韓戰的需求在做黃色炸藥TNT在做這樣的需求所以佔地大概341公頃那這341公頃後來經過時代的變遷那我們都知道後來都沒用了荒廢了"},{"start":4822.498,"end":4844.492,"text":"那在馬政府時期就跟歐芯我們以地做股原來的持股比例大概整個加總起來有49到51%左右後來歐芯公司透過增資的方式一直稀釋我們退府會相關事業體持有歐芯的股現在主委我們持股比例還有多少"},{"start":4846.631,"end":4860.379,"text":"報告員19點多剩19點多了最高峰好像是51還是49沒有超過50在49左右啦就我們兩家公司持有等於我們把60公頃的土地以地做谷"},{"start":4860.919,"end":4885.348,"text":"入股了歐新公司那歐新公司本來是民間的企業那想要做什麼呢想要在隆起這個全世界唯三擁有的越式街二D型要買垃圾買那個全台灣的這個有毒的事業廢棄物焚化後的灰渣這一趴已經過去了後來在蘇貞昌政府把它廢止這個計畫因為地方的抗爭確實也不適合所以這個計畫整個都廢止了廢止之後我現在來到現況"},{"start":4887.473,"end":4913.756,"text":"廢止之後這341公頃的土地有60公頃是歐新那退幅會現在有19%的股權另外281公頃呢是我們退幅會現在等著要撥給市政府我們進度走到這邊那今天我要跟主委討論這個題目就是第一個歐新到目前為止是不是還有應付款要還給退幅會的錢還沒有付的有多少金額"},{"start":4914.637,"end":4938.057,"text":"委員好 我是事業管理處處長楊長正這個部分我跟委員報告關於榮工公司這個部分我們已經跟他和解 達成和解法官預定我們和解那和解金額 當初榮工公司是1.14億元我們和解金額是8500萬元大折和解因為對方也有損失嘛所以我們經過協商以後用8500萬和解"},{"start":4940.339,"end":4965.853,"text":"那他是現金支付還是對方已經現金支付給我們3700萬那現在還4800萬那麼在今年年底前他要給我們如果給付不了因為土地51公頃土地我們已經設定抵押了如果他給付不了我們就可以強制執行申請法拍歐欣現在的負責人有沒有他願不願意"},{"start":4967.389,"end":4984.329,"text":"我們當時是以地作股嘛現在他就以地還債把地債還給我們國家有沒有可能他就是因為願意所以說才會跟我們和解嘛用這種方式來願意的話因為那邊地價現在不高我建議這是國家很重要的像越世界一樣的二地形"},{"start":4985.85,"end":5010.298,"text":"當時以地作股被他用增資的方式把我們稀釋掉了現在他有債務要還給我們如果退幅會可以在最後收尾的階段把這塊地收回來收回來中間經過這20年的波折我覺得能夠最後在顏德發主委的任內把這件事情做個完美的收尾這個很重要 因為土地回來這341公頃才能完整成為國家級的地質公園嘛所以處長 楊處長你現在目前估計這"},{"start":5012.742,"end":5030.997,"text":"他現在擁有是51公頃,把他當作抵債還給我們國家的可能性大還小因為前一陣子他們大概有找到買主了,想要買這個51公頃土地所以說他才很大膽的跟我們簽訂和解的合同"},{"start":5031.818,"end":5047.828,"text":"那和解千萬合同有他如果地可以順利拍賣除月他當晚還我們4800萬你們還有兩席董事對不對沒有沒有沒有一席剩一席那這一席董事知不知道對方的買主是來自於什麼地方我們是不允許在那邊做垃圾場喔"},{"start":5048.648,"end":5067.364,"text":"不會不會 那本來是不允許開發的就排除這個事情了甚至連重電都排除掉了所以這個委員放棄我覺得好好談啦 但年底要有一個收尾那這個為什麼重要因為當時因為講頭才會在山區這個根本是水土保護區因為國家任務需要 民國六十幾年"},{"start":5068.024,"end":5088.698,"text":"所以弄了一個專門生產黃色炸藥啦TNT的工廠 佔地那麼大那附近確實川山甲比人還多梅花路比人還多我在那邊開車有時候還會看到川山甲媽媽帶著川山甲小孩過馬路啊那是一個很好的生態區域啦那這生態區域現在的工廠因為當時的講頭所以它現在的地目是特定目的的工業區嘛"},{"start":5089.979,"end":5107.458,"text":"對可是我們現在所有的計畫都廢止了嘛已經沒有沒有特定目的也沒有這些計畫了所以它確實不應該再做工業區那現在我知道我們跟市政府開過一次協調會希望把這個地幕把它廢止回到原來的面貌原來這邊是農牧區就農牧區什麼區就什麼區"},{"start":5108.379,"end":5123.841,"text":"那現在卡在一件事情 退府會願意 因為根據講頭我也問了經濟部能夠把地木申請把它廢掉 回到原貌的只有當時的申請人就是退府會所以退府會是可以申請把它變更的"},{"start":5124.562,"end":5147.793,"text":"那你們現在好像是願意把那281公頃申請變更歐新的那60公頃你們目前是仍然有疑慮我這樣詮釋對不對這個部分我跟委員報告281公頃的變更是台南市政府後來提出要求的因為它變地質公園了變國家級的地質公園了113年2月1號原本112年討論的時候它都是朝著全區廢止的方向走的"},{"start":5148.453,"end":5172.699,"text":"但是後來113年2月1號的時候台南市政府希望先變更281公頃那當然如果要變更歐欣那塊土地的話我們還是要他同意歐欣同意錯了我昨天已經把法令研究完了楊處長跟主委這件事情牽涉到當年民國60幾年的法令講頭什麼單位申請"},{"start":5174.451,"end":5194.29,"text":"廢紙就那個單位才有權利如果後面的單位有權利現在就叫台南市政府申請廢紙就好了就因為廢紙連經濟部都說只有當時民國63年根據獎頭提出來的單位才有權利申請廢紙也就是貴單位退府會而廢紙的範圍你要全區或者局部"},{"start":5195.728,"end":5218.767,"text":"局部的擁有者有沒有權力去主張他可以去救他損失提主張但就變更來講他是沒有權力的所以我已經請相關單位環境部經濟部我們可能盡快再邀請退服我們一起來討論就341公頃全區廢止把他特定目的的工業區廢止回到原來生態保護的公用"},{"start":5219.508,"end":5248.852,"text":"那第二個方案是分成60跟281分成兩個進程那這中間唯一會產生疑慮就是歐新他當年以地做股是以特定目的的工業區來做價他可能會認為說我現在回復原貌我原來買的價格會受損會有這一塊的訴訟疑慮可是就廢止這個地目變更這個地目全區廢止變更他沒有能力阻卻只有退幅會有能力處理這個法律的概念先弄清楚"},{"start":5249.212,"end":5275.465,"text":"它是兩個事情所以我希望主委好好研究這件事因為那個美麗的地方現在因為卡在這裡它就是荒廢在那邊那我覺得有點可惜那這341公頃都是我們國家的土地當然現在有60公頃因為狀況放在那裡我們找出一個方案來趕快把這個地目特定目的地目工業區廢止讓它回到我們的地質公園這樣的規劃我不知道主委可不可以我們回去之後會好好研究"},{"start":5275.825,"end":5278.208,"text":"我盡快會召開這個協調會,麻煩主委,謝謝你接下來請沈博洋召委謝謝主席,有請主委有請顏主委"},{"start":5304.747,"end":5320.742,"text":"主委好主委好今天我大概只有三個問題第一個其實都是一些追蹤第一個問題當然還是滲透的問題最近滲透問題當然是越來越嚴重我們可以看到最近也有這一個助理"},{"start":5321.282,"end":5341.597,"text":"被滲透的問題那當然的這個助理為什麼會被滲透也是因為有人先中間人然後接觸那這個退降之前呢我們也有整理過很大的一個package就是很多時候呢我們現役軍人的滲透他也是經過退降那這個我在外交這個對外交部的那一個質詢的時候也有講過現在就是"},{"start":5342.017,"end":5367.577,"text":"也有退役的外交人員被接觸然後去接觸現役的外交人員所以現在這種情形已經變得越來越多那剛好這一次賴總統針對這一個五大威脅他有一個17項的因應策略裡面也有特別提到就是這個紅字的部分就是修正對於領取退出給予人員這個相關規範那我在第一會期的時候其實有質詢過那時候主委還不是不是現任的主委"},{"start":5368.217,"end":5391.25,"text":"那時候他當然是當時他認為這個可能有一點困難但後來我們在溝通的過程當中後來這個賴總統就任之後我記得我跟退輔會也講過了幾次就是國防部一旦有相關的修正退輔會這邊也會有一些相關的修正所以這一個上次我有看到就是說這個退輔會有一次他表示這一個就是啟動這一個國軍退除一軍官的這個輔導條例第32條的修正作業"},{"start":5397.908,"end":5422.555,"text":"這也是我在第一會期的時候本來要提出但那時候退輔會說可能還要先暫緩我想問一下就是說因為這一次總統也有提到就是說院版也希望能夠趕快出來這個也算是實際像措施蠻重要的一環目前我們針對這一個第三條之一我們就有提到分類分級我盤點目前這一個退輔會有能夠做的事情因為有些東西不是退輔會能夠做的有些是國防部才做得了"},{"start":5423.055,"end":5439.515,"text":"那隊伍會這邊有救業 救醫 救養 救學 優待及救助大概就這幾種那這幾種呢 哪一些比如說我們在什麼時候停止什麼時候喪屍要怎麼去符合比例原則現在這一方面的這個32條的修法進行的狀況大概如何"},{"start":5440.455,"end":5466.344,"text":"跟召委報告我們的確也感受到這幾年中共多管道多元化的一個滲透跟統戰還有認知戰現退軍人在這一塊掉了他們陷阱的也蠻多的就是違法的案例蠻多的所以我們除了就我們自己的機制宣導提醒他們保防的警覺提高警覺要謹慎不要掉了信之外"},{"start":5467.464,"end":5479.358,"text":"有關照會所關心的輔導條例的修正我們主要的目的也是杜絕希望能夠嚇阻中共的滲透提醒我們農民的一個認知"},{"start":5482.661,"end":5499.202,"text":"有關於停止本條例相關的一些權益方面我們現在針對主政單位主政單位依照陸海公軍軍官士官服役條例或者相關的國安法這裏面所定的原來所謂的就他的退出給予"},{"start":5500.203,"end":5526.388,"text":"上司或剝奪我們已經在三十二條條例已經有了就是他主政機關上司剝奪我們就已經上司剝奪了已經在執行當中這是沒問題的已經完整後續我們要做的就是配合主政單位陸海公共機關事工服務條例或者國安法有關於停止這我們要整理停止他的退退出給予或者是部分給予這一塊那我們相關的也要停止"},{"start":5527.068,"end":5552.525,"text":"委員 召委所打出來這個泡沫營的左半邊他的輔導條例所訂的一些權益就醫就養就卸就業跟優待跟救助這塊我們也要訂停止現在已經啟動了那我們呃 現在目前的進度是各部會的一個協調有些部會都已經回函了那我們依據各部會的回函的內容我們再做一些聯繫說明然後後續按照法定的程序再來往上走"},{"start":5553.245,"end":5578.731,"text":"好那這個可不可以在我們在一個月之內能夠再密集討論一下因為當時我在提的時候呢我也要把比如說有國安法國家解報工作法這些以外我們還要把反滲透法訂進去就是說因為現在涉及國安的事項實在是太多了那原本我們能夠訂的比如說內亂外患這一些可能已經不足以應對現在的這個國安威脅就是說我們的種類如果訂的夠完整那我們也才可以去決定那個比例原則嘛"},{"start":5579.031,"end":5590.716,"text":"他今天違反的是比較輕度的國安事項還是重度的國安事項然後根據他不同的狀況他剝奪的狀況可能也不同我們可能要往這個方向討論那不知道主委有沒有可能在這一個月之內我們能夠先把這個願板討論出來"},{"start":5592.619,"end":5615.74,"text":"這個跟召委報告因為這個相關的內容比較廣泛那針對這個五大類的一個服務的項目要依據主政機關他的主要的一個法則不管是陸海公共機關說的胡錫條例還有國安法也好的內容那他的一些權益影響到什麼時候我們可能要依據這些所以我們才會跟各部會計協調聯繫"},{"start":5617.341,"end":5632.348,"text":"然後再來溝通我們定我們的一個細則這個可能需要一點時間好沒關係我們就迅速好不好因為我覺得這件事情蠻重要的畢竟現在滲透的狀況真的是越來越嚴重希望能給我們一點時間而且我們現在也是可以看到就是說像這些現在滲透的狀況他們有在分"},{"start":5633.069,"end":5647.549,"text":"這一個國民黨、民進黨、民眾黨它是沒有在分的所以呢這個也是非常重要就是說我們在像我之前一直提的附中的這個納管我們也不會說什麼今天去中國納管是只有納管某一個政黨的是每一個政黨的都應該要納管所以呢"},{"start":5648.09,"end":5671.953,"text":"現在整體的這個狀況來講,如果說他們如此廣泛的接觸,這個中間人很重要。剛好退將是時常成為中間人。你看上次關於做這些民防、防彈等等備心的、防刺備心的,他的中間人也是退休的這個軍官。所以退休軍官很容易成為這個所謂的中間人,然後他又有可能金錢上的誘因。"},{"start":5672.313,"end":5684.901,"text":"那也有可能上次我跟這個主委提到的他們很多從事一些旅遊業那旅遊業是一個中國很容易拿去給予資源的一種方式所以如果他今天退了然後他又再從事這個行業其實對我們來講都是高風險那這個風險的盤點我覺得真的是特別重要"},{"start":5688.303,"end":5705.248,"text":"那因為時間的關係我再問一個我最後一個就不問了就是說因為這個剛剛夜報也有講到就是說有這個居民專場的這個銜接系統裡面有AI啊什麼等等之類的那因為我之前除了提到這個準確性之外有特別提到速發部要來協助是因為畢竟我們本來是好意啦"},{"start":5707.089,"end":5721.902,"text":"就是說我們希望能夠銜接他的專長啊什麼等等之類的但這個名單特別重要嘛就是說你哪些人在這一個裡面然後呢我們剛剛講他中間人他要去接觸我們的這些退降等於那個名單就在這一邊所以這一方面的這個資安現在速發部協助的狀況大概是如何"},{"start":5724.673,"end":5750.82,"text":"報告長我請我們統計處處長跟您報告一下先跟昭偉報告一下我們有之前就已經在昭偉的指導底下我們有先跟治安署裡面聯繫了我們希望他們把採購的這些內容或者一些限制的項目或治安該注意的項目他們跟我們講是說基本上第一個因為他們現在手頭上沒有類似的案子因為情況不一樣但他們先依照工程會的這些資訊服務的採購合約它裡面有一些基本的規範"},{"start":5751.66,"end":5780.667,"text":"另外是我們所有的建設都是在機關裡面有相關的治安法的規定不管做任何的情況比如說端點防護啊防火牆啊資料庫加密啊這些東西要按照基本的治安法的規定去做辦理然後最重要的是我們現在這些AI的相關東西基本上都是落地的就是我們不會上到雲端去所以目前目前我們在規劃裡面是不會有資料在往外傳的一個情況所以不會有資料外洩的一個情況做一個補充說明好"},{"start":5781.067,"end":5796.324,"text":"因為如果說今天有廠商的話他當然一定要符合最低程度的這一個資安規範這個數法不太有他的標準嘛那另外就是說他連線假設他今天有聯網的時候他的規範又是什麼那你剛剛講落地那另外還有一點就是要特別注意就是Access就是誰能夠取得"},{"start":5796.864,"end":5819.649,"text":"你今天就算你是落地的就算你只有在內網而已今天誰能夠接觸這些資料是重要的因為對中國來講他重點的滲透對象有時候並不是駭客攻擊他知道誰有access他去滲透這些人去取得資料如果說我們今天把這個東西定義的清楚國安的法規才能夠進來因為目前其他的法規都是針對你能夠接觸資料的人我們有相關的規範跟法則"},{"start":5820.709,"end":5836.203,"text":"那如果一開始我們在主管機關把能夠接觸資料的人的定義是清楚的話那後續要處罰或者要管控才會方便所以這方面可能再麻煩要必須一定要注意因為我覺得這一定是一個風險好謝謝趙偉智好好那謝謝那我就先這樣子其他的我就用書面再來問謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":5855.086,"end":5865.839,"text":"好 接下來請林柱英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請主委有請主委 謝謝"},{"start":5871.673,"end":5900.9,"text":"林委員好主委早我想延續剛剛沈伯陽召委的議題因為我想這個中國的滲透無孔不入那麼事實上不論是在現役或者是退役又或者是像我們現在在立法院其實各個政黨當中因為每一個立法委員他所面對的所詢問的都是國家大政所以當然我相信立法院當中我們現在所質詢的或者是我們所接觸的尤其在我們國防外交委員會當中有很多真的是很機敏"},{"start":5901.28,"end":5926.968,"text":"但是也就是因為這樣我覺得這種過去我小時候才會講的這個保密防諜人人有責小心匪諜都在你身邊那確實時空的變換在過去有一段時間尤其是在國民黨馬英九主政的時期會特別淡化了過去中國對於台灣的文攻武嚇甚至於滲透認為好像一切都在平靜當中就沒有發生可是如果我們現在仔細把這個面紗給它掀開來把茶壺的蓋子掀開來底下"},{"start":5931.389,"end":5948.183,"text":"我們確實被滲透的非常的嚴重就以本席過去每一次在追蹤的這個部分那麼有關於退役或現役的軍人我們真的不能成為破口以2024年來說現役軍人一共有在這個所謂被起訴的64人當中現役軍人43%退役是23%那麼其實"},{"start":5954.528,"end":5972.947,"text":"過去很多人會認為說既然已經退役了完全接觸不到機敏的文件但是為什麼包括我所整理的這些樣態當中吸收退將來組織親中的政黨那麼再來就是吸收退役的軍官給他軍援之後來蒐集軍事"},{"start":5974.008,"end":5988.164,"text":"的機密包括軍事據點又或者是來收取所謂反制共機的這些密件那麼其實我想問的重點是主委過去您也在軍中服役過那麼您退下來了"},{"start":5988.905,"end":6015.18,"text":"那麼真正第一手的機敏文件退降或是退役的弟兄是拿不到的但是你有沒有思考過為什麼他們依舊會成為被滲透或吸收的重要的重點那麼這個主委在您接了退府會之後有沒有一個想法是說顯然他也有超過20%的退役軍人是牽涉其中的那到底具體的原因會是什麼"},{"start":6016.603,"end":6036.912,"text":"跟委員報告我們從案例上去看因為就誠如委員說的我們退役了他不可能接觸到這些密集以上的資料那為什麼會發生這些案件那中共他就是利用退役軍人去拉攏現役軍人從現役軍人那邊找到資料所以變成退役軍人是一個橋樑"},{"start":6038.132,"end":6062.771,"text":"所以我們為了防範我們的退役軍人就是調到中國的陷阱裡面所以我們在英國報告我們也報告了我們19個榮福處整個全國19個榮福處他的責任就是在地區的退役軍人的訪視的工作我們增編了我們把這個人數都增加了希望提醒我們的跑者退役軍人要嚴防中共的這些陷阱"},{"start":6063.671,"end":6085.053,"text":"國安局也提出很多陷阱那我們也跟法務部相當當然要了一些案例都在做宣導 宣教就是要提高警覺就成為剛剛委員講的旁邊旁邊人人有責那以前還破萬獎金三百萬那就是匪諜都在你這邊這個一定要有這種警覺性但絕大多數的退避人都是愛國的但不要因為這少數幾個人害群者罵"},{"start":6086.855,"end":6105.664,"text":"這影響了國家安全我們現在積極度在做這個工作好 其實就如同主委所分析的確實人脈資料這個是對岸想要拉攏的因為從學長去找學弟然後再透過學弟去拿到這個機敏的資料但是我們也知道我們很多退下來的這些弟兄們"},{"start":6106.144,"end":6132.291,"text":"他們其實都還蠻年輕的所以退府會會相形的重要會對就醫就學就養甚至於其他的補助給予幫助過去我曾經講過我們就是賞罰分明愛國的然後對國家有貢獻的我們之後要好好的善盡義務來照顧但是這些叛國的我們絕不容忍所以當時我要求一定要把他們的退休金要追回可是本席又注意到除了有關於退出役官兵"},{"start":6132.811,"end":6149.191,"text":"有所謂退休金請領暫停的這個狀況但是有另外一部法規是我們在退出役官兵的輔導條例當中現在跟我們的退休金暫停的這個條例其實是沒有同步的我的言下之意是"},{"start":6150.232,"end":6167.669,"text":"當你今天被起訴了或者是你在被究責國家予以制裁的同時你的退休金拿不到可是你就業、就醫、就養跟就學的這些優惠其實是還可以進行中的就如同我做的這張表一樣"},{"start":6168.47,"end":6192.295,"text":"就是如果你現行你被判刑執行中或者是你在相關的法規上你已經確定叛國或是被起訴叛國的同時依照兩岸人民關係條例你不能去出席這些活動但是你雖然還沒有被褫奪公權你褫奪公權如果還沒有回復的話那麼我想請問的是我前面提到的這些就醫就學就養"},{"start":6193.875,"end":6199.227,"text":"這些補助還能給他嗎那麼這個法規是不是其實應該要同步上來呢主委"},{"start":6200.356,"end":6223.238,"text":"現在依據陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例就是整個喪失跟剝奪的我們同時就停了現在都已經停止他的相關剛剛委員所講的權益這個都沒問題現在就配合主政單位國安法這些相關的固定來做的那現在就是剛剛委員所提到的我們現在已經針對為了符合比例原則"},{"start":6224.159,"end":6251.3,"text":"以提醒我們所有的退役軍人要不要違法保護國家安全跟尊嚴所以徵定就是剛剛委員所提到的他除了喪失跟剝奪以外那麼主政單位依據陸海公園軍官士官服役條例這裡面所定的他的退出給予有停止領受全部或者是部分有這種內案的那我們就要同步要徵定停止他的權益現在正在啟動"},{"start":6252.093,"end":6267.398,"text":"好所以說本席只是要提醒啦就是有關於退出役官兵的輔導條例當中目前有這樣的漏洞的話有沒有準備要修法就是讓他被同步那麼現在修法的進度會是什麼有沒有準備要研議或是提出來有沒有要送院會報院等等"},{"start":6270.24,"end":6294.66,"text":"這個進度可不可以講一下因為前面已經有另外有關於退休金的這樣的一個部分的時候那麼在陸海空軍士官兵的服務條例當中你既然有修訂的時候那麼其實你另外一個輔導條例其實要修法跟上並不困難而且我相信整體的不論是對於軍中的地胸或是將退役的地胸或是整體社會氛圍上面應該都是會同步的"},{"start":6295.06,"end":6316.173,"text":"所以主委這裡跟相關的單位有沒有一個什麼研議的進度可以讓我知道現在為了符合比例原則跟委員報告我們已經開始啟動了現在就遵循相關部會他的意見然後回函之後我們再做一個聯繫做一些回覆再把我們原來的規劃看有沒有一些調整的地方然後再做溝通後續按照法定程序我們會報行政院"},{"start":6316.656,"end":6336.719,"text":"好,要多久的時間?有沒有一個時間表?我們先要報行政院,行政院還有省長,我們大概八月份會報行政院好,謝謝謝謝委員好,謝謝林委員那接下來有請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":6354.687,"end":6381.549,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請嚴主委有請主委主委早 辛苦了家維好主委我想就我們退伍會轉投資的相關事業那我們的監督考核的部分來跟主委您就教那根據我們退伍會投資事業機構績效考核的實施要點所提及"},{"start":6383.551,"end":6402.909,"text":"為維護我們退伍費的權益其中安置率是否高於持股率為一項重要的指標然後根據今年二月底的資料我們仍有三家的轉投資事業包括遠容氣體還有新章天然氣還有達隆環保"},{"start":6406.151,"end":6415.758,"text":"這三家沒有達到此標準那我想請教主要原因是如何是為何那應該要如何來加強能夠提升"},{"start":6417.2,"end":6435.364,"text":"各位委員報告我們現在目前整體的安置率安置率是41.8那麼我們持股本會普老會的持股是33所以它安置率是高於持股率的這是整個我們投資世界目前狀況是這樣那委員剛剛提到這三家新彰遠榮還有達榮"},{"start":6443.235,"end":6464.141,"text":"遠融行商還有達融 達融環保那這三家主要就是他們這三家的民股的持股率比較高是高過我們的是高過我們的第一個原因第二個他這個因為這個投資事業這個往事公司也好這些或者是環保的他們流動率很低流動率很低 職缺就比較少"},{"start":6465.341,"end":6491.728,"text":"這是第二個原因跟委員都報告當然我們相關也採取一些措施比方說我們副主委去拜會新章的董事長就請他盡量提高安置那我們從新章也看他從10%已經提到19%那足是在進步當中其他的各公司我們也都請他們能夠照顧我們的榮民榮眷盡量提高安置率"},{"start":6492.332,"end":6511.868,"text":"好,那另外我們就轉投資事業的勞動環境來做討論參考我們勞動部所公告的資料,在過去的一年內就有包括新興科運還有大南汽車、新家石油等轉投資事業有違反勞動法規的相關紀錄"},{"start":6515.031,"end":6542.033,"text":"我想請教就是退伍費應該要如何來督促改善避免相關的這個微失會再發生有關於這個違反勞動法令這部分我們藉由董事會投資工作匯報我們持續要求各個公司一定要克制法令然後維護勞工的權益經各公司的改善違反的狀況都已經大幅的改善了我們從111年是33件"},{"start":6545.015,"end":6567.607,"text":"目前下降到113年是10件114年今年開始到現在並沒有違反的案件我們持續在照委員的指導我們在努力那我們是不是能夠將相關的違法的紀錄納入會見高階經理人會派代表等高階主管年度考核的一個規範當中"},{"start":6568.567,"end":6582.212,"text":"所以我們會把這些違法勞動法規的來納入高階主管考核我們會把它納入好那相似的問題也存在於這個我們退伍會所屬的醫療機構在過去一年內也有數次這個違反勞動法規的記錄榮總作為政府所經營的這個醫療機構是否能夠一併檢討所屬這個醫療機構的勞動環境建立一個友善的勞僱關係"},{"start":6597.915,"end":6600.656,"text":"那目前我們在統計過去109年到113年有關於醫院違反勞動法規的案件一共有11件那目前已經都改善了"},{"start":6617.965,"end":6636.118,"text":"就我们辅导会的立场我们会继续的来针对这个部分来进行一个检讨改进那同时也纳到年度的这个绩效考核里面去一并作为那有关于平时的这个相关的这个护理职场的争议的通报平台还有违反劳动法令的这个平台我们都会检讨脱除以上报告好"},{"start":6638.417,"end":6661.583,"text":"因應全國性的護理人力的流失問題,尤其地區的醫院包括宜蘭的殊榮跟園榮離職率都相當的高,退伍會是不是已經採取相應的對策,能夠確實精進護理人員的流財、攬財的措施以緩解我們榮民醫院人力短缺的困境?"},{"start":6662.965,"end":6685.891,"text":"報告委員目前蘇澳跟園山的護理預算原額是188位在2月份我們去調查統計目前缺員是3位所以缺員的比例是0.16%目前也是符合醫院的設施規定的目前我們會去廣昭有關於各地相關的護理人員再回到我們"},{"start":6686.831,"end":6713.714,"text":"蘇萊元山來服務,尤其是退休後的護理師同時也會從這個校園區廣泛的去徵才來滿足我們蘇萊元山地帶的護理需求就這個台灣我們今年進入這個超高齡的社會那宜蘭縣人口老化的問題更是嚴重那榮總在宜蘭的這個元山跟蘇榮兩間分院目前長照服務的這個量能包括床位、設備"},{"start":6715.115,"end":6717.477,"text":"還有這個人力等資源是否都充足"},{"start":6723.997,"end":6744.54,"text":"謝謝委員 我是臺北省蘇澳分院代理院長熊孟平跟委員報告這個問題目前在蘇澳跟園山院區都各有院內的分院設置的護理之家總共有327床跟151床兩院目前的護理之家占床率都在八成以上"},{"start":6745.22,"end":6763.852,"text":"那另外呢在院內也有設置這個日照中心那配合這個社區的這個服務那在院外的部分呢我們各設有6個總共12個的失智失能據點以及21個預防保健的這個據點那提供社區居民健康促進的服務以上報告"},{"start":6764.728,"end":6791.156,"text":"我們的資源是充足的那榮總除了能夠照顧我們的榮民榮眷也能造福周遭的這個鄰里那是否能夠配合地方的這個需求持續來擴大服務的這個量能乃至於這個及早來準備未來對於失智失能照顧的相關需求的這個提升那這方面我們有沒有已經在著手進行當中"},{"start":6793.001,"end":6807.949,"text":"陳吳剛才跟委員報告事實上我們會繼續擴大我們這個市至市城據點的這個服務那另外最後一個問題我想請教就是我們這個殊榮跟園榮這個資源非常的好"},{"start":6808.869,"end":6825.32,"text":"那對於我們就近這個士官兵的部分,他們每年都有需要這個健檢的部分那之前我也跟我們這個退伍會還有跟國防部都討論過了那可能是在這個界面上,可能需要再做一個比較詳實的一個溝通"},{"start":6826.921,"end":6853.642,"text":"可能在這個國防部委託我們做健檢的部分價格方面是不是能夠再重新再做討論希望能夠提供給就近的這些士官兵因為你蘇榮他這個所靠近的這個蘇澳港海軍的部分可能就超過兩千名以上的官兵那袁榮他在這個靠近這個攔指部的部分他包括一些我們陸軍的部分都"},{"start":6854.824,"end":6863.145,"text":"可以來做配合也可以提供給我們這些士官兵就近可以健檢的機會那這部分我們現在討論的結果如何"},{"start":6865.42,"end":6883.575,"text":"兩個分院所有跟原山跟國軍都有簽合作協議然後軍人的門診急診掛號費跟部分負擔都提供休眠然後這兩個分院都協助國軍實施實情的體檢然後跟國軍花蓮總院有區域的聯防共同來照顧我們的國軍人員"},{"start":6886.235,"end":6909.94,"text":"跟主委報告一下就是士官兵使用率不高啦這原因在哪裡因為他們還是往北到台北往南到花蓮去做健檢我們再去加強做一些宣傳好那就拜託我們退伍會是不是跟國防部再多那個詳細的一個溝通看能不能取得一個共識讓我們所有的士官兵可以就近來健檢好謝謝議長"},{"start":6916.697,"end":6935.294,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝主委接下來我們有請陳冠廷委員上台質詢我們麻煩請主委有請主委 謝謝陳委員好"},{"start":6943.223,"end":6972.422,"text":"主委好 主委我來關心一下我們嘉義的一個長照大樓的工程進度它是在我們入滿嘉義灣橋分院入滿長照大樓的工程進度那我們看一下這個圖面上面所示那這個住住大樓對我們來講是非常重要的一個長照的資源那對不僅是我們竹崎鄉還有鄰近的鄉鎮來講它也是一個很重要的一個醫療資源跟長照的資源所以我"},{"start":6973.363,"end":6999.006,"text":"一直想關心這個問題就是為什麼我們預算中心指出長沙大樓興建的這個計畫預算執行最低的然後還有因為綜合規劃報告還有這個水土保持計畫的這個時程還一直在延後多次流標這進度是一直被嚴重的影響所以從去年12月24舉行這個凍土典禮後來又因為水保等等的一些問題還有建造沒有取得所以是停工什麼時候可以復工啊"},{"start":7001.325,"end":7013.953,"text":"包委員他4月1號開始開工4月1號就昨天就昨天所以昨天已經因為剛才我聽我們助理講說說就是近期就會正式開工所以已經開工了開工4月1號開工那預計是116年6月完工所以說117年前"},{"start":7019.216,"end":7038.963,"text":"117年6月開幕哇 太好了 那這個消息我也想藉由這次的質詢跟我們所有的民眾講不用擔心 已經開工 會如期完工這樣對不對 主委上次凍土我也去過 親自去然後縣長一起主持凍土聯盟嘛所以那個地方沒有問題 這個是可以如期的完工好 謝謝 謝謝 這個很重要喔 因為"},{"start":7043.084,"end":7068.141,"text":"我們的嘉義縣老年人口已經突破23%了那今天聽到這一個好的消息我也想要給所有我們嘉義縣特別是我們山區的民眾知道那我們主委也承諾他會如期如質那已經在昨天重新復工那沒有問題那再來我想要請教另外一個跟也是您的業務啦嘉義分廠的這一個二次招商這個部分就"},{"start":7069.182,"end":7092.314,"text":"也是在我們山區不過是在大埔鄉大埔鄉的彰化農場嘉義分廠那三月中他進行第二次招商還是沒有廠商投標所以是去年九月第一次招商之後再一次沒有廠商投標有沒有初步檢討是什麼原因造成他們廠商最近嘉蘭地區的地震頻傳這是一個"},{"start":7093.314,"end":7118.184,"text":"會影響廠商投資意願第二個當然也是國內旅遊市場環境的一個因素那針對這些我們當然也要增加一些誘因然後能夠順利的去招商所以現在在我們事業處規劃之下現在積極在籌備當中5月準備上網公告5月準備上網公告那準備要用什麼樣的方式去調整"},{"start":7120.065,"end":7144.148,"text":"我們處長跟您報告一下我是事業管理處處長楊長正當然針對廠商提出的問題我們也做了檢討比如說旅約保證金的發還機制比如說資本額過高等問題這個月我們還會整合其他有意願廠商的意見把它整合起來做一個修正然後五月份我們就可以公告了"},{"start":7144.528,"end":7166.759,"text":"我看多次招商的反饋都是說就像你剛才提到的8000萬的資本額過高那這不是一家兩家三家四家基本上大家都是這樣子的說法那可能就要快速檢討一下因為我們是希望說從113年辦理的這個說明會有24家出席結果投標之後你們也是有去洽詢12家潛在廠商"},{"start":7169.681,"end":7185.98,"text":"我意思說這個東西不要再反覆的出現我們一起把這個問題先想說怎麼樣解決因為不只是我們地方的鄉親包含鄉長代表們都一直在反應說希望能夠把大埔的潛力給開發出來這是第一點然後第二點剛才有提到地震"},{"start":7186.641,"end":7214.806,"text":"他雖然是在地震是發生在大埔但是其實已經慢慢的從這個戰情中已經都復甦我們希望說大家想到大埔鄉的時候能夠想像的是他水庫的這個觀光還有周遭的一些農場設施而不是在我們就不要再講說這些天災導致什麼什麼我們要往前走那希望說盡快的來去招商那第三次的招商你是預計4月11號是不是5月份我們會公告"},{"start":7215.666,"end":7237.017,"text":"5月份公告但是4月11號是要現刊嗎4月份我們會整合廠商意見整合修訂我們的招商公告公告完畢以後我們公告一個月因為目前為止還是有潛在的投資人願意來所以說我們公告一個月以後再來開標"},{"start":7238.078,"end":7259.805,"text":"好那我們希望盡快那如果可以的話兩個月現在幾號現在4月2號那我們兩個月之後來給我們簡單的書面告訴我們說現在的進度到什麼樣的狀況最後我想要提一下我們這個也是我們的榮總嘉義跟灣橋分院的護理人員空缺的部分"},{"start":7263.639,"end":7284.166,"text":"我們請相關的官員在主委那邊來協助一下如果我們先看一下這個立法院的預算中心有指出我們龍總的護理人員臨時人數是持續增加那人力短缺的問題是很嚴重的那這個我特別要注意到我們嘉義的部分"},{"start":7285.006,"end":7305.952,"text":"那就醫療作業基金資料上面的顯示從108年起我們加一分院它的空缺率就在上升那到113年還有11%的空缺率那三區的灣橋分院大概都是13%左右的這個空缺率那如果用退輔會提供的數字的話那在各級"},{"start":7307.705,"end":7327.446,"text":"籠總公職護理空缺率嘉義的灣橋分院它的空缺率是2.13%是各級籠總空缺率第二高的從這個數字我們可以看到這個各級籠總較為不足的院區我們的灣橋分院它是嘉義縣山區最我們最依賴的這個院所之一"},{"start":7327.987,"end":7338.341,"text":"他提供的不是只有竹崎鄉竹崎泛路中埔甚至是部分的阿里山地區都有他提供的協助我想請教一下這個醫療的能量到底足不足夠有沒有什麼可以"},{"start":7339.232,"end":7364.42,"text":"改進讓我們這個協助處理醫護人員短缺的這個部分的問題特別是在我們這個灣橋這邊剛剛我們就醫處長也報告嘉義灣橋分院公職護理人員現在預算是188個那現在剛剛委員這個表裡面所列的這個缺額的百分比啊我們行政院的人事總署他有一個4%的規定就是你絕對不能超過4%"},{"start":7365.62,"end":7389.979,"text":"那也就是說這個彎橋分院它2.13目前還符合但今年我們會再增加59個人工資的比例能夠稍微提高然後退休人員回任我們請他們回任7月也有7個人所以這加起來就有66個我們希望今年能夠提高他們的這個戶評比能夠提高我們的護理人員好 謝謝"},{"start":7393.357,"end":7398.959,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝陳委員 謝謝主委接下來我們有請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請主委有請主委 謝謝"},{"start":7418.484,"end":7433.624,"text":"主委好主委首先要感謝主委就是在上個會期本席提出來以後我們對於有幾指榮民在榮院所應享受的福利可以跟錦霄還有"},{"start":7438.281,"end":7454.492,"text":"錦霄海巡等等其實想同樣的權利這個部分主委已經做到了就我們在退府會所轄的醫院裡面其實我們已經給了這些有幾子榮民這樣的福利"},{"start":7455.993,"end":7469.784,"text":"可是另外我想要請教這個部分真的要謝謝主委可以立即的去做一個修正不過在衛福部所屬的醫院裡面我想請教主委目前進度怎麼樣"},{"start":7473.191,"end":7498.189,"text":"這個案子我們去年開始啟動就是我們有職的農民在農業的這些全能補助這方面部分階級我們已經在啟動了那現在目前送到行政院之後行政院希望我們把這些就醫的狀況以及階層提供詳細的數據提供數據給他們然後再做全班的一個規劃那現在積極在處理"},{"start":7501.752,"end":7516.177,"text":"行政院需要的這些資料他們過去沒有嗎像我們有一些在年金的改革或者有很多的這些相關的資料這個有很困難嗎這個會議是我們處長去開的我請處長跟您報告簡單說明就好就行政院的意見是怎麼樣要或不要"},{"start":7522.328,"end":7550.565,"text":"報告委員行政院是非常支持在這部分的一個補助那他是希望我們輔導會能夠提供有關於這個農民從這個退休年齡跟就醫的這個頻率來做一個分析比較以上這個不是刁難嗎我們當你不要幫行政院做這樣的那個承諾你是行政院的那個你應該要幫的是我們的退役的同袍"},{"start":7551.565,"end":7575.785,"text":"今天他們在有這樣的需求因為我們為什麼會這樣提是因為你警消還有所有的海巡人員其實都已經納入了我們只是讓他們享有同等的待遇而已不然你政府口口聲聲尤其現在兩岸兵兇戰危然後你又要募兵然後你又希望說要給軍人最好的一個待遇尤其我們賴總統在"},{"start":7577.566,"end":7587.33,"text":"演說的時候他還特別強調希望我們好好的照顧我們這些現役的軍人退役的軍人可是我們連這樣都做不到你還要再去做比較表那要怎麼比較說他們就醫的狀況或者他退休的年齡那你其他的有做這些嗎"},{"start":7596.713,"end":7623.257,"text":"我想這就是刁難這個部分我們還是希望可以據理力爭因為對於真的要照顧現役退役的軍人你要人家犧牲生命要人家保家衛國可是當你有一點點福利的時候就跟他們算得很清楚這樣子會讓人家覺得這是口號這個部分退府會要有自己的角色跟定位而不是認為行政院他很積極的想做很積極就不會叫你提供這樣的資料我們會努力爭取"},{"start":7626.926,"end":7643.323,"text":"那這個部分如果像類似的資料我們會不會很難做 已經很久了嗎上一次行政院要求要這個 這個會不會很難做如果不會很難做 多久可以做出來可以交給行政院 處長"},{"start":7645.707,"end":7656.615,"text":"包委員我們會盡快把委員盡快是多快大概預定因為這個下次的這個行政希望我們在半年之內提供那開會的時間是12月31號所以我們預定是會在12月31號開的會你什麼時候去年12月所以你近期我們會盡快的把資料送出去"},{"start":7664.261,"end":7686.49,"text":"因為我們希望行政院一定要記住他們在現階段對軍人的承諾過去跟現在都一樣現在為什麼大家會不願意進來當軍人第一你的薪資並不高你的義務役現在增加了兩萬可是我們的志願役並沒有所以你現在交了一些給予看起來好像有可是事實上對現役軍人他的照顧還有福利還是不足的"},{"start":7689.571,"end":7704.776,"text":"就像我們看到上校街以上退役人員不可以領取子女教育補助費這是有階級差別的像這個已經講了七八年到現在都還沒有做出來甚至其實已經有民進黨委員也算出來我們連"},{"start":7706.696,"end":7725.106,"text":"財政的來源都有了現在教育部補助的這些學費的預算把它扣掉其實都還足足有餘來支付這筆預算所以不要淪為口號這個部分我們希望退補會還是站住我們自己的立場好好的去爭取好不好我們立場不會變好謝謝謝謝主委那另外我們看到這個報告裡面從上一次的"},{"start":7733.853,"end":7745.605,"text":"會議裡面其實主委也一直提到尤其主委在擔任部長的時候其實就已經跟那時候馮世寬主委大概兩位其實積極在推動就是軍職專長跟民間職業轉型對照的這個部分"},{"start":7750.851,"end":7766.768,"text":"所以我想這是一個很好的一個理念政策那我們也希望其實他可以好好的去推動甚至可以看到他可以做得很成功因為最重要的是我們很多退役的軍人其實他都正值年輕力壯有的四十幾歲而已都有很好的未來還有他過去"},{"start":7771.853,"end":7792.443,"text":"在軍中所受到的一些基礎訓練其實我相信都非常的好可是他們在求職上面其實常常碰到一些困難他上不上下不下尤其那個年齡所以如果這個部分可以做好我們當然樂觀其成可是在做法或者他執行上面可能會有一些問題首先我們想請教的就是說在國軍其實他有700多項專長"},{"start":7798.906,"end":7815.757,"text":"那其中有404項對照民間的職業項目是比對不出來的這是國防部說的因為在之前他提到這個部分是沒有辦法去做比對那退府會現在準備要委上辦理委外在報告上面是什麼說"},{"start":7817.715,"end":7839.503,"text":"問題是最了解軍人的還有最清楚國軍政策的是國防部他都已經說他轉嫌資料有一半以上是比對不出來他們要轉嫌的這些資料在執行上面會至愛難行那我想請教如果連國防部這麼熟悉的一個單位他都沒有辦法做出來哪一個民間單位可以做"},{"start":7841.113,"end":7866.251,"text":"我要跟委員報告我們這個軍事專長轉弦的國安部是第一個我們跨部會合作的單位所以國安部提供的軍職專長是743項都已經提供了所以委員這裡面列的404項就在這個裡面所以除了404項以外所有的專長所以也沒有所謂其他漏掉是國安部提供的因為跨部會合作其他還有勞動部經濟部跟教育部"},{"start":7866.971,"end":7881.176,"text":"有些是跨部份很重要我等一下會提到可是哪一個委外單位有辦法做到因為其實最清楚的所以我們是直接把這個提供給委外的這個單位嗎就我們已經有的這些相關資料"},{"start":7884.518,"end":7900.061,"text":"你要說一下簡單說就好了委員好 我是就業處處長跟委員報告我們這個君子專長現在其實從這個案子一啟動我們就是跟國防部密切的每一次做任何的動作都是國防部有納入那現在它743項裡面我們將來我們也已經採購公告我們也都出去我們要求的是你這個來參與這個委商的這個單位一定要有時機還有能力"},{"start":7912.284,"end":7915.288,"text":"你時機跟能力那哪有時機啊 這個就沒有人做啊有 這個跟委員報告其實勞動部 教育部 經濟部都有相關職能基準的一個經驗所以他們建議我們要偽商時間的部分因為"},{"start":7927.544,"end":7940.035,"text":"這時間的關係我們希望把相關的一個做法更具體的有哪一些單位是可以做的提供給本席一些書面資料另外我要在這裡提醒的不好意思跟主席接一點時間我要在這裡特別提醒的是過去我們可以成功比如說像我們君子"},{"start":7946.221,"end":7949.324,"text":"直接退下來以後直接去開公車他的那個公車駕照為什麼因為當時考試院他曾經做過這樣的一個對照表就是他直接認可所以如果你有院紀或者跨部會的協調你有政府的認可認證他才有可能這樣因為他直接退下來用軍中的執照他就可以去開"},{"start":7968.641,"end":7973.305,"text":"民間的這個我們的那個公車或巴士那現在我們面臨到的困難我舉個例子好了我們海軍一級艦的艦長其實他退役以後他沒有辦法去做商船的船長所以你今天最大的困難是沒有辦法取得證照因為就是沒有證照所以你們沒有辦法做那這個部分是你要先克服"},{"start":7991.539,"end":7998.281,"text":"你才有辦法不然委外單位跟你說這個可以委外的單位跟你說你在軍中表現非常好比如說我們的嚴部長在軍中你各方面的那個經歷養成都非常好你適合當董事長那明年7月會認為說你這個委外單位說你適合當董事長那我的公司就可以當董事長那我們的營長你說他表現得非常好他有特殊的專長出去他就能當廠長嗎我想這個在"},{"start":8020.749,"end":8034.359,"text":"很多的標準上面它是需要一個政府的認證就像我們剛剛講的考試院為什麼你的軍中的執照可以直接去開公車你現在如果像我們的艦長其實你都可以開軍艦那個都可以負責打仗可是他沒有辦法當商船的船長我想這個才是最大的問題我們既然要花錢希望他把效益做出來那也希望先提供相關的資料給我們後續再做探討"},{"start":8047.968,"end":8051.309,"text":"謝謝委員指導 把考試院這個狀況納進來謝謝委員指導好 謝謝謝謝馬委員 謝謝主委接下來我們請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席那我們有請顏主委有請主委 謝謝"},{"start":8081.069,"end":8091.353,"text":"首先我想要請問我們退輔會今年114年的這個公務預算總共編了多少錢我們1309億1309億那比去年113年多了多少錢18億多18億多那請問預算數是不是在我們退輔會上面來的史上最高的一次"},{"start":8105.939,"end":8123.298,"text":"目前是目前是嘛 對不對所以這是編列規模首度達到1300億以上那我想問一下退府會在114年當中被刪減總共是多少錢被凍結分別又是多少錢"},{"start":8124.591,"end":8131.718,"text":"我們審議的結果三減是8,427萬凍結整個TOTAL凍結四億多OK 凍結四億多我可以看一下公務預算113年稅出編列跟114年稅出編列的情形"},{"start":8141.107,"end":8145.069,"text":"就可以看到其實我們114年的整體預算案的金額是比較高的那刪減的部分坦白說對於退輔會的整體刪減的數額是很小所以我想這個顏主委應該在退輔會來說比較在意的是凍結的部分對吧凍結的部分剛才說凍了多少錢4億多"},{"start":8165,"end":8174.425,"text":"4億多嘛好那我們來看一下我們凍結的部分有多少我這邊列出比較高額的因為有的50萬100萬我就不列了所以我從200萬以上開始列那200萬以上開始列的話分別有我們在圖上這幾位委員他們都是凍結數超過200萬以上的那其中有一個是在第二輪的時候被凍結了3.7億"},{"start":8189.873,"end":8215.679,"text":"那特別講一下這3.7喔是當時有陳情人喔那他就發現說在榮民之家裡面的這個飲料機啊然後竟然都是販賣過期的飲料那這是實際上有陳情人然後呢他也提到了這是一個真正真實發生的事情所以我想要請問一下就是這個部分呢我們有沒有做過檢討了重新去檢視所有的榮民之家的飲料販賣機裡面的飲料"},{"start":8218.32,"end":8240.738,"text":"是沒有過期的狀況 請問這個部分檢查了嗎保安 榮家這部分販賣機經過委員的指導之後 我們全面都做過檢查全面做過檢查 強化集合的機制那你們當時有檢查到就是有過期飲料的這個部分嗎這個機器後面我們再去投幣出來 好像沒有查到有過期"},{"start":8241.519,"end":8262.075,"text":"那但是呢這個是實際因為成情人的爺爺就住在這個榮民之家所以呢有一次他去幫忙買飲料的時候那突然下來的這個飲料呢他是上面直接寫的是過期的所以才有像委員成情的這個狀況那呢凍結的部分那金額比較高高達3.7億喔"},{"start":8264.116,"end":8284.889,"text":"那所以我想問剛剛您所說的再請您說明一次被凍結的部分是多少錢被刪減的部分是多少錢刪減是8427萬只要那凍結是4億多所以說 主委我們刪減的部分還算合理吧以我們就過去113年來講的話的刪減數113年請問刪減了多少多了一半"},{"start":8292.967,"end":8295.111,"text":"113年刪減數是多少錢?4498但是我們今年的預算多編了多少錢?"},{"start":8304.326,"end":8307.227,"text":"多了18億多所以雖然刪減的數額是比上一次113年多一些你說多一半多了4000萬可是我們的113年到114年的預算增加就是在刪減後增加了多少再講一次"},{"start":8325.292,"end":8329.314,"text":"18億你剛剛說18億嘛所以這個3減15個可以說是九牛一毛我們大概基本上這個國防外交委員會不問藍綠喔那都給予退府會很大的空間因為退府會做的很多的事情都是正確的事"},{"start":8340.578,"end":8346.124,"text":"那所以我們回到這個凍結的部分那當然就會對退幅會有比較大的影響尤其是凍結3.7的部分那你們既然已經檢查過已經去看了一遍所有的榮民之家的販賣機裡面都已經清查過之後呢是沒有所謂的這個確認了都改善的情形的話那我想要請問那"},{"start":8363.782,"end":8376.379,"text":"其他的这个第一个25款第一项的项目就其他的500万200万200万500万这四笔是否也已经向当提案委员说明"},{"start":8377.83,"end":8404.599,"text":"報告委員 整個總預算的公告是3月21號對對對 沒有 我問的是這四筆就是500 200 200 500這個部分我們針對凍結的案就針對3月21號公告之後我們現在各相關的處理針對這些把相關的說明那有這四個案子有哪幾個是只要書面提出就結凍的我們希望盡快能夠結凍沒有 我要問的是說哪幾項是書面提供之後就結凍的"},{"start":8406.212,"end":8432.66,"text":"哪幾項是要在委員會報告之後解凍的最後這一項 退伍會一般行政費怎麼樣書面所以都是書面同意你說一二三四五五個案子都是書面同意之後就可以立刻解凍那請問為什麼還沒有送進來就是剛剛跟委員報告我們現在在草擬當中同意 需要多久"},{"start":8433.988,"end":8450.232,"text":"因為我們想要讓退府會趕緊讓你們的這個預算不要被凍結嘛然後如果我們都是只要書面就可以解凍了根本連委員會都不用送來排審的話那是不是應該要趕緊的送解凍案呢已經拖了一段時間我們從開議到現在那請問什麼時候要把解凍報告送到書面喔書面送到他們的手上"},{"start":8457.153,"end":8476.94,"text":"提供書面報告讓他們直接解凍因為你這樣直接解凍的話3.7億加1400萬哇直接可以讓退幅會整體的運作進到一個整個正常的情況那刪減的部分因為我們今年編的是史上最高所以呢其實就算是刪減之後還是我們多了18億的錢裡面只刪掉只多刪4千億而已那對退幅會來說應該是一個大利多才對"},{"start":8483.863,"end":8507.232,"text":"所以我想要問這個書面的解凍報告什麼時候會送給本人讓他能夠解凍給我一個時間點好嗎報告委員我們當然是希望我能夠盡快解凍我需要一個時間點嘛你說盡快是多快一個禮拜兩個禮拜一個月兩個月三個月那都是盡快啊這個牽涉到跟委員溝通的時間沒有那請問提案人有哪一位現在是不願意讓你解凍的"},{"start":8509.401,"end":8537.037,"text":"這個我們不能聽委員做回答對嘛 所以那你有沒有跟好 我舉例來說3.7億這位是陳金輝委員他所提案的請問你沒有去跟他說明過了嗎目前還沒有那什麼時候要說明 為什麼沒有去說明就是書面報告要完成那你為什麼書面報告還沒有完成我們在一陣子之前我們不就已經做完這些預算的審議了嗎那為什麼這個解凍報告他只是書面就可以解凍為什麼都沒有送到他們的手上讓這些預算能夠解凍呢"},{"start":8539.298,"end":8555.344,"text":"最後我只要因為我時間到了只要回答我一個問題什麼時候這幾項尤其是3.7這個部分能夠書面解凍因為我們是想幫退輔會的我們是站在退輔會的立場想要協助退輔會將這樣子的一個凍結的預算能夠解凍讓退輔會能夠更好的運作"},{"start":8560.266,"end":8577.76,"text":"所以我有跟陳靜惠委員溝通過這件事情她是很願意在你們檢查過之後給她書面報告就能夠解凍的可是到目前為止我們的退府會都沒有做這件事情原因是什麼報告委員好我是救援養護署長鄭玉廣目前我們已經完成這是要專案報告才能解凍"},{"start":8578.3,"end":8593.116,"text":"你剛剛不是說都是書面嗎對另外三個是書面這是專案報告那當初發生這個事情的時候我們可以陳金威說明了另外三個是哪三個就是剛才講那個凍結案但是這個是要專案報告那凍結是哪三個凍結是直接書面的"},{"start":8594.13,"end":8608.572,"text":"我現在上面列的不好意思主席借我一點時間就是第一個五百萬的嘛五百萬對這個是要這是書面報告對那其他3.7億是要專案報告沒有沒有你剛說有三個是書面的嘛五百萬的還有哪一個"},{"start":8610.345,"end":8632.261,"text":"總共我這邊有一二三四項那請問哪三項是你說書面就可以解凍的就是那個五百萬還有兩百萬的部分OK所以就前三個嘛對不對前三個是書面就可以解凍那那個五百萬再下來這個第四個五百萬這個是怎麼樣在排進委員會裡面做說明然後解凍嗎"},{"start":8634.68,"end":8643.236,"text":"就是書面報告經委員會同意經委員會同意嗎 對不對那什麼時候 告訴我什麼時候這個部分要送進來盡快是多快"},{"start":8644.608,"end":8664.907,"text":"至少給我們一個時辰讓我們知道嘛因為我們想要協助推幅會啊我們還跟委員溝通才能知道時間所以你們不知道現在什麼時候要送解凍案進來因為如果你們一直不送進來的話那就一直沒有辦法解凍推幅會的業務萬一因為這些解凍案那受到影響的話這對我們來說是不是我們希望看到的事情所以所謂的儘快我想要請問兩個禮拜內做得到嗎我們跟委員在溝通"},{"start":8669.388,"end":8694.678,"text":"你要告訴我說你們什麼時候要送吧因為你們都檢查過了書面報告做好了嗎我是會計組處長過去我們的程序大概就是報告出來以後我們會跟委員先去溝通沒有問題以後我們就會送需要多少時間我相信上面的委員大多數是民進黨的然後陳金輝委員我已經跟他溝通過他沒有問題所以我想要請問一下你們需要多少的時間會把捷動案送進委員會"},{"start":8696.408,"end":8713.073,"text":"我們現在就盡數在做但是委員那邊就是我們不曉得能不能通過我已經問過了他沒有問題那過去我們通常進行這樣子的一個解凍程序去排進委員會需要多少時間過去我們講過去上一次113年就好了需要多長時間"},{"start":8715.465,"end":8735.715,"text":"因為我們送了以後還要到程序委員會那邊去排對啊對啊對啊那你什麼時候要送到程序委員會差不多三個月左右那為什麼要這麼久呢你們現在不是很缺錢要用我們送出去以後那個院會那邊要復委復委以後院會你不是說書面就可以解凍了嗎書面沒有他還是要到院會那什麼時候要送進去排嘛"},{"start":8737.079,"end":8746.661,"text":"你們送了沒有我們跟委員那邊溝通完已經送了對那你前面四個陳冠廷委員跟王鼎委員跟林竹英委員溝通了沒有"},{"start":8747.386,"end":8774.414,"text":"因為那個預算3月21號才公 才那個尊總統公佈所以我們現在各一管處重新再修正最新的資料資料完以後我們就會到委員辦公室去做溝通好 那請你們儘快溝通 儘快送解凍來下一次我希望退府會來到這裡的時候已經將這所有的解凍案都送進來然後能夠通過 好嗎因為我們是希望站在退府會的立場協助退府會在這些被凍結預算裡面呢 儘快的能夠解凍"},{"start":8777.675,"end":8802.144,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員關心再請退伏會再跟委員溝通我還是要補充一下因為這一次的國會亂象我們的總預算過是一個禮拜前的事情而已所以如果說在一個禮拜前才剛復疫然後才剛過然後就馬上要送這個可能一定是有點困難所以還是要幫這個退伏會補充一下但接下來一定還是有很多的解凍然後再慢慢跟委員溝通好不好謝謝"},{"start":8803.851,"end":8815.474,"text":"好 那接下來我們請何欣淳委員上台質詢好 謝謝趙委我們請嚴主委主委請"},{"start":8828.071,"end":8842.563,"text":"主委好我想今天我特地來我們外交國防委員會針對我們退府會所轄管的這個應該不是說轄管因為我們退府會是所有全台灣的天然氣公司的最大股東我們事業管理處應該處長也在現場"},{"start":8847.987,"end":8872.694,"text":"最近全國國人都對台中這個城市安全公共安全感到憂心而且覺得害怕的是我們新光山越有氣爆氣爆發生我們真的是覺得要痛定思痛那如何的來面對問題解決問題大家一起努力保障這個公共安全讓台中這個城市越來越安全讓大家信任"},{"start":8874.281,"end":8900.658,"text":"那我們如何通定私通因為在3月28號台中市消防局的火調報告已經出爐雖然現在檢調正在進行當中有一些細節沒有辦法對外來公佈但是初步有對外說是瓦斯氣爆認定管路內的瓦斯的餘氣在工人切割管路時引爆火花所致"},{"start":8902.695,"end":8915.687,"text":"這件星光三一月爆炸 讓很不幸的五位死亡還有很多受傷的我現在必須要講的是 我們如何來解決天然氣管線的管理問題"},{"start":8917.108,"end":8944.882,"text":"天然氣管線的管理呢我們退府會是我們所有全台灣天然氣公司最大的股東那我們身為最大的股東可以要求我們所有的天然氣公司對於這個管線的一個不管從前面的設計規劃到後面的施工到後面的這個整個管理我覺得這個很重要這個很重要所以我就要跟拜託主委一件事"},{"start":8946.022,"end":8966.629,"text":"來下一頁我們雖然這件事情進入司法調查但是呢相關的作業標準及程序我們退伏會是絕對有權利要求所有全台灣的天然氣公司再一次的去檢視清楚而且呢檢視呢專業的檢視完畢該調整的要調整該改進的要改進喔因為呢以剛剛"},{"start":8973.94,"end":8997.987,"text":"這個台中市消防局的火調報告他是說跟天然氣的氣爆有關但是呢在當時候事情發生的2月13號我們新中天然氣公司他說跟他們沒有關這跟誰有關那我們等司法鑑定跟司法調查報告出來但是呢我必須要請退輔會我們原主委可以用力的關心請我們事業管理處的處長"},{"start":9000.908,"end":9019.932,"text":"第一個 我們瓦斯管線的改裝維修事實上都要經過申請要跟天然氣公司申請不管是所謂的表外的外管線或是表內的管線設計規劃改裝維修都要申請而且還要提出設計圖 對不對主委應該"},{"start":9024.52,"end":9049.451,"text":"你問一下就知道了啦 都要 我相關的文件都在這裡讓你看問一下我們全台灣的天然氣公司 每一家公司都有我們在這個餘髮的管理都是我們退福會應該可以幫忙協助的因為我們有 我列出來我們退福會投資全台灣的新自備的天然氣公司那我最後最後我只是希望拜託原主委"},{"start":9050.992,"end":9080.09,"text":"你知道我們現在天然氣公司歷年用戶申請表內管改裝的圖資我們到底有沒有保留建檔有嗎 處長回答很好 我是事業管理處處長跟委員報告我個人在天然氣公司任職過所以這些不管是建檔或利用這些申請我們都一定要保存而且是永久保存的永久保存 那永久保存了之後呢我們有數位管理嗎有 數位管理"},{"start":9080.25,"end":9105.503,"text":"那現在數位管理是從哪一年開始建置的還是全部都已經建置完成這個是各公司的量能不一樣這個我必須要老實跟您報告各公司的量能不一樣但是我們輔導會基於公股的立場我們持續用董事會的方式來要求各公司一定要妥善完成而且能源署每年的安全檢查他到各公司的檢查他也會把那個列入要求的事項"},{"start":9106.303,"end":9124.976,"text":"但是來兩個問題第一個問題你最大股東雖然你有要求但是你要求並沒有押10成沒有告訴國人說所有全台灣的天然氣公司好我現在對各位用戶的申請我們都有保留這些圖資也有建檔但是我如果要找的話怎麼找那如果要用的時候要怎麼用那我們累積這數十年下來的所有的資料"},{"start":9136.448,"end":9150.736,"text":"你們儲存在哪裡所以我才會講說數位化是最快的也是最符合現在科技的那如果你數位化的速度不夠快的話那你日積越雷子會越來越多那一旦事情發生的時候"},{"start":9152.578,"end":9158.466,"text":"癲癲塌塌啦我們這一次的新光三越的氣爆裡面我不知道誰責任歸屬該是誰但是如果一旦它是氣爆的話這個天然氣的管線的管理就是一個重要的議題"},{"start":9169.741,"end":9180.864,"text":"那如果我們退府會是最大的股東還不能要求全台灣的天然氣公司能夠好好的來管理這些不管是它是表外的管線或是表內的管線那這些圖資你雖然有建檔有保留但是你怎麼利用你怎麼來協助未來防範於未來的這些氣爆事件"},{"start":9190.046,"end":9211.382,"text":"所以我希望第一個 退府會身為最大的股東我們處長 主委要求處長 處長去要求全台灣的天然氣公司我們的圖資的數位化的建檔跟管理 可不可以壓一個時程雖然它的量很多 我相信很多但是你沒有壓一個時程 你根本不知道它什麼時候能夠完成"},{"start":9212.506,"end":9240.664,"text":"這第一個第二個我們對於這些的圖資的管理之後數位化之後我們又如何能夠的精進改進我們現行的天然氣的管線的設計規劃跟施工工法這些它會牽涉到我們如何在未來的公共安全跟協助救災這兩大前提之下你們跨部會怎麼跟中央地方政府合作"},{"start":9242.162,"end":9245.13,"text":"這很重要主委我希望"},{"start":9246.499,"end":9273.535,"text":"不要有再一次的這個氣爆事件那我希望我希望退府會身為最大的股東能夠盡速的有效率的去要求全台灣的天然氣公司該做的要做啊不能因為量人可能不夠啦或者是累積的資料太多啦所以我現在可能來不及做啦那你起碼告訴我你到底需要幾年做好啊主委"},{"start":9276.243,"end":9302.41,"text":"有信心 有願意要做這件事嗎要注意安全 委員指導 委員關心就是相關的瓦斯的安全的問題我們會找委員指導來做一些監討你態度要堅定啊 你要求這個事業管理處啊這個事業管理處要能夠統領全台灣各個天然氣公司啊如果沒有辦法的話 你現在這樣直接跟他說啦也沒一個答案啊"},{"start":9305.97,"end":9308.476,"text":"主委 能不能做 要不要做可以做"},{"start":9313.117,"end":9341.066,"text":"報告委員跟您回報事實上我們所有公司關於投資的數位化都已經完成了你從幾年開始建制你不要糊弄我啦你現在的建制是在某一個年度開始才開始建制啦那一個年度之前你都還沒有建制啦那一個年度你要我說嗎這個我在上一屆府立委的"},{"start":9341.926,"end":9361.983,"text":"任期內我不斷的在追天然氣公司的這個圖資的管理我追了幾年了對不對是我拜託你啦我要求你去建立這個東西第一個真的是為了我們全台灣的公共安全啦好不好我了解再拜託是是 謝謝委員長"},{"start":9368.365,"end":9379.871,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝英純那接下來有請邱志偉委員上台質詢邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":9389.884,"end":9403.666,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席政務機關使用官員會長公共夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們嚴主委和就醫保健處的劉處長以及屏東榮總的王院長好 有請主委劉處長跟王院長 謝謝總委好主委好 處長好 院長好我想我們都有一些生活的消費經驗雖然我知道"},{"start":9419.093,"end":9436.183,"text":"主委沒有經過經營過商業那我今天的標題呢是什麼我今天的標題來是醫療平權救命科別要補足啊強化平融財務資源要才能留住醫護讓我們看一下一般一家店你覺得就算你沒有從商的經驗有沒有店一開張就可以損一兩平的"},{"start":9438.548,"end":9455.578,"text":"是不是一張店開張我們先要想辦法先把我們的店員請足貨源充足然後呢才能夠讓客人上門是不是這樣所以說一定一段時間你經營好客源之後你才有可能慢慢的由盈由虧轉盈慢慢的成長是不是"},{"start":9457.312,"end":9476.591,"text":"主委那您認為醫院是不是也經歷過同樣的一個經營情況醫院也一樣也是一樣好所以成為一個成熟的醫院需要哪些要素呢我現在請一下我們的處長處長您看過這我們四個榮總嘛你認為目前這四家榮民總醫院是不是都已經進入到很成熟穩健發展的階段"},{"start":9477.874,"end":9503.18,"text":"目前我們三家榮總都已經經歷到成熟穩健那屏隆還在慢慢的扶植當中好 屏隆要扶植當中 謝謝來 我們請屏隆的王院長院長 我請教一下下一間院長好你知道你來屏隆接任多久了 屏隆榮總兩個月過十天兩個月過十天你在接任後你有聽到屏隆的鄉親對我們屏隆的期望嗎譬如說小兒科有沒有急診 夜間"},{"start":9504.96,"end":9524.099,"text":"我們目前是採急診專科看那進一步找小兒值班醫師下來看偶爾才有小兒科醫師值班所以目前的屏隆的年輕家長孩子一旦夜間有急診狀況他沒有辦法送屏隆那你知道如果是像一些心肌梗塞需要緊急動心道關手術的屏隆目前有這個能力嗎"},{"start":9525.976,"end":9542.064,"text":"我們目前可以做緊急診療館但是那個uncode的人員有限uncode人員好我接下來問了我們看一看病患如果受傷需要緊急手術通常在醫院如果醫院的醫生不夠沒辦法開刀uncode的診療館手術uncode的醫療團隊包括麻醉醫師包括整個團隊大概有多少人"},{"start":9544.11,"end":9560.981,"text":"那個 院長 院長報告委員 預估應該至少要六個 才有辦法變成一個team那我個人規劃是到十月之前會補齊六位心臟科醫師好 不簡單我過去呢 跟主委報告一下"},{"start":9561.892,"end":9581.661,"text":"屏東開業以來我們屏東鄉親具以高度期望但是王院長來了他讓我們有一個希望就是他願意聘足足夠的醫師讓醫師的團隊可以24小時待命來進行這些緊急的手術如果不然這些我們病患到哪裡送到高雄去那我們如果病患都往高雄流屏東農種是不是很難經營"},{"start":9583.703,"end":9593.05,"text":"是很難經營嘛是好那那那希望您的這個院長請教一下那您的部分要聘主六位心臟科的醫師小兒科的部分呢"},{"start":9594.814,"end":9620.812,"text":"有計畫嗎?報告委員,目前小兒科其實每天都有人值班那只是如果輪值急診的話,他們值班的區域太大所以現在是急診專科跟小兒科專科那你需要再補充多少醫師?我期望是12到15個,可是從5個到12到15個可能要走好幾年大概要多少資金?因為我們知道剛開始您的收入不足要請這麼多醫師,你有這些錢來請醫師嗎?"},{"start":9623.795,"end":9642.572,"text":"包括我們目前以3月來講超額超出總額45%左右那就是在各個管道旗下去讓因為我們的業務量有出來那接著總額那邊如果也可以供應的話讓我們的財務會更加健全好 謝謝院長請回"},{"start":9644.153,"end":9669.352,"text":"主委現在要請教您了因為我們期待蘇前院長 尊昌 我們的老縣長幫屏東設立一個屏東榮總他相較於三個其他榮總 他有他的特殊任務那您知道嗎 我們榮民醫療作業基金收支管理保管及運用辦法第十條在本基金下的各基金的資金可以互相的融通其程序由退伍費訂定之 是不是這樣子"},{"start":9670.412,"end":9691.607,"text":"是這樣的因為這樣的關係我們訂了一個國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會榮民醫療作業基金的資金融通作業要點他的資金的計息方式是以中華郵政一年期的儲金的機動利率加一碼那麼處長請教一下你知道目前這一年期的儲金是多少錢嗎利息多少錢嗎"},{"start":9693.015,"end":9703.938,"text":"大概不知道 0.835 五百萬以上那加一碼是多少呢 加一碼就是1.08好 處長你有沒有房貸不好意思 你知道現在房貸大概多少錢嗎我沒有房貸 我不清楚不清楚啦 2% 3% 就很不錯了所以 主委我這邊要跟您一個請求啦目前如果以我們退伍費所狹下的哪些醫院有能力借出作業基金處長要不要提示一下"},{"start":9722.637,"end":9725.459,"text":"目前屏東榮總雖然看起來帳面有虧損 虧損主要是因為整個醫療大樓的折舊的問題 折舊以後他的現金流量是正的你要報告另外三家榮總的作業基金的存量嗎"},{"start":9747.774,"end":9772.161,"text":"沒有我看他現在目前帳上還有接近六億六億接近六億這六億那其他能不能順便報告另外三家的餘額我跟委員報告那個台北榮總的現金的部分餘額是多少大概是一百到月底一百三十四億一百三十四億台中榮總呢台中的部分是"},{"start":9774.902,"end":9789.208,"text":"對不起 134億是台中的台北榮總是284億哇那高雄的部分是98億哇 你看好 主委 您了解了啦我要跟你請求啦因為北榮 中榮"},{"start":9790.424,"end":9805.315,"text":"高榮都有很長期穩固的支持跟經營他們今天能夠累積這些高達200多億100多億到將近100億的作業基金是他們這幾年來歷任的院長跟團隊同仁打拚下來的成果得來不易"},{"start":9805.915,"end":9818.949,"text":"但是呢我們希望三個老大哥能夠支援小老弟是不是我最後的結論就是說我們榮總副助我們北榮有陳院長陳總院長中榮有副院長他是鄭院長但是姓傅啦還有高雄榮總是陳總院長那麼"},{"start":9821.451,"end":9842.268,"text":"其實呢 屏東農總到現在2022到現在才兩年多那其實呢 需要三個老大哥的支持有沒有可能我們的王總院長他希望提升我們屏東農總 擴編 徵聘這醫師需要相當的資金這個每個醫師啊 其實呢在外面請啊 隨便一個月我私下問過一個月到五十萬"},{"start":9843.129,"end":9861.179,"text":"他如果要增加六名哇 不得了 他一年下來基金的負擔沉重主委 做我的結論了有沒有可能您來評估北榮 中榮 高榮的榮民醫療作業基金的榮通性來協調三家的對不起 不是分院 三家總院他的分院的作業基金的餘處呢調節這個情況給予屏東榮總融資讓他可以用這麼優惠的我說過1.08%的利息能夠得到足夠的資金益助幫他撐過"},{"start":9872.289,"end":9900.615,"text":"這開始營運這最辛苦的階段委員的好意就是要協助榮總是的 屏東榮總屏東能夠跟其他三個榮總是一樣的一個level希望能夠把它提升我們了解委員的苦心但是剛剛委員這個案提到的這個台北台中高雄榮總榮民醫療作為基金的榮通的運用我想我跟委員報告我還要尊重他們三個總院院長的意見我找他們協商希望他們也能夠配合"},{"start":9901.135,"end":9910.524,"text":"我想我這也不願意請三位院長來表達意見我相信三位老大哥一定很慷慨我真的要再三陳述過去在籌備期間三位老大哥的院長給我們屏東肉農非常多的資源不管是救護車 各種的醫療設備真的都很多所以我特別的藉此機會要謝謝三位老大哥的院長那他們願意要表達他們的意願嗎"},{"start":9925.877,"end":9951.313,"text":"報告中委員這個屏東總院在蓋的時候台北榮總吳廠提供12億4356萬9千元謝謝掌聲 屏東鄉親感謝你但是呢現在北榮也在發展新休館中心跟信義院區的事也需要大量資金如果沒有影響台北榮總的興建輔導會支持我們看用什麼方式來處理啦但是不能再像以前就12億4356萬9千元"},{"start":9953.735,"end":9971.568,"text":"因為這樣全部有去無悔也不好不能有去無悔啦 王院長聽到沒有 不能有去無悔那另外兩位院長 老大哥說話了 你們兩位要不要說一下雖然是鄭的副院長台中總總報告 我們過去在屏東總總在成立我們台中總有挹注了五億多 也是無償的提供"},{"start":9972.569,"end":9995.818,"text":"目前台中總有兩個大樓支持中心跟第三醫療大樓我們總共大概120億正在進行當中我們最近行政院剛幫我們通過我們的新辦計畫我們要蓋兩棟大樓一個科技大樓跟一個醫護宿舍總共要80億所以我們總共是有200億的工程在進行我們台中總算目前有130億的存款"},{"start":9998.419,"end":10007.845,"text":"基金但是我們預計明年體可能要開始也要向輔導會的基金看看能不能融資要借錢這樣二哥要取席入啦所以手頭比較緊啦來那個三哥"},{"start":10012.267,"end":10040.658,"text":"謝謝委員長那個高雄總統對屏東總統支持我想委員應該很知道啦是剛開始開幕的時候我們一開始建的時候就是我們開始進去幫忙做建設是的謝謝對那剛開始開幕的時候其實我們70%的員工幾乎都是我們高雄總統過去是的謝謝那目前的話我們每個月大概都還有28位的醫師在那邊持續的做資源所以我們大量的投入啦那在不管在制度的建制啊資源的支持我們都持續在做啦這個跟委員做報告好謝謝主委那因為主席站起來了齁"},{"start":10041.198,"end":10066.124,"text":"做個結論啦有錢出錢有利吃利老大哥要娶媳婦還可以縮衣截食來幫忙小老弟可以生養小孩老二呢家裡呢自己有新建房屋老三呢出錢出了人了沒有辦法出力沒有辦法出錢還可以有一點啦所以主委三位總院長給我們好好的支持好不好請我們在座整合好那最後的我們王院長最辛苦給這小老弟多多鼓勵好不好好謝謝主委謝謝處長謝謝四位院長"},{"start":10072.718,"end":10083.522,"text":"好 謝謝嘉賓委員那接下來請麥玉珍委員上台質詢麥玉珍 麥玉珍 麥玉珍委員不在接下來請鄭天才委員上台質詢主席 各位委員 有請主委有請主委 謝謝"},{"start":10108.414,"end":10126.035,"text":"政委好主委好,辛苦了謝謝委員這個再次的給主委看這個民國77年5月15號當時的許立農,許立農主委,你的前輩"},{"start":10127.761,"end":10143.825,"text":"這個特別依據這個當時的內政部吳博雄部長的一封信他答覆這個吳博雄部長同意將現未利用的土地46.526公頃撤銷不用歸還"},{"start":10149.878,"end":10174.665,"text":"而且還特別承諾,今後是安置狀況若再有不惜公屋利用之土地,定當繼續辦理撤銷撥用就原住民族而言,這個就是一個非常重要的一個退府會族尉的承諾對原住民族而言,它也是一種契約"},{"start":10176.304,"end":10194.738,"text":"所以這個部分是讓我們原住委也讓我們所有退府會的一個同仁能夠認清也要把它當成是一個退府會的承諾對原住民族的一個企業好這個"},{"start":10199.462,"end":10222.499,"text":"這個原住民族基本法是民國九十四年才公布施行的剛剛的是還沒有原住民族基本法之前民國七十七年的一個退伍會的一個承諾原基法二十條規定政府承認原住民族土地的權利這個寫得非常非常的明確"},{"start":10224.099,"end":10251.417,"text":"行政院也核定原民會所提送的當然是從台灣省政府就已經有了這個公有土地增編原住民保留地的處理原則這是行政院核定的非常的清楚第三點寫原住民於七十七年二月一號以前已經使用其祖先寫得很清楚祖先遺留"},{"start":10252.796,"end":10280.535,"text":"而且現在還在繼續使用的公有土地就可以增編為原住民保留地所以我沒有要擴大到剛才像原主委這樣的一個胸襟那我只要也現在的原住民只要能夠符合行政院所核定的增化編原住民保留地的原則"},{"start":10281.909,"end":10307.298,"text":"只要符合這個規定現在還繼續使用的這個部分所以這個部分到目前為止這個要請主委其實主要是在花蓮台東啦主要是在花蓮台東希望能夠目前還沒有你們還沒有同意的是不是把它這個爐裂出來"},{"start":10309.516,"end":10333.452,"text":"在鄉公所在縣政府然後已經跟你們去會勘了然後你們還沒有同意的把它如列出來是哪些土地有幾筆哪些地號這樣的話可不可以提供給我們共同的來去到底有什麼樣的一個需要去協調的這樣可以嗎"},{"start":10336.444,"end":10363.423,"text":"我們已經有1303公頃在96年以前歸還原住民就是所謂原住民保留地真化變現在在處理是96年到現在現在有54公頃54公頃我們已經同意了51公頃同意還有這3公頃主要是鄉公所在審核我們會配合辦理這樣 那個3公頃就是這麼一點點而已剛剛你講了那麼多 你看"},{"start":10365.798,"end":10379.963,"text":"這麼大面積,之前都同意啊,何況現在所以這3公頃多請提供土地的地段地號可以嗎?沒問題,外國人沒問題好,這個就麻煩這個部分另外,這個會計署會計署請教處長,113年度"},{"start":10394.497,"end":10409.689,"text":"的預算,113年度啊不用去看,113年度的預算的解凍案當時你們是在113年還是114年,114年就是去年了,今年"},{"start":10413.539,"end":10436.056,"text":"今年113年度應該是去年去年幾月送來到立法院解凍案就是我們送立法院以後到委員會大概排解凍的時間在五月份過去因為預算比較早通過我查過經濟委員會因為我在經濟委員會我查過經濟委員會去年"},{"start":10441.963,"end":10461.39,"text":"去年針對113年度3月就排了審查經濟委會3月就排了審查解凍案因為臨時請你當然你回去你回去查一下113年度112年度兩個年度就好"},{"start":10466.287,"end":10494.884,"text":"退伍會什麼時候送解凍案到立法院時間就好這樣可以嗎可以好這個最後這個主委這個我知道上面交代不能送解凍案到立法院但是主委為了退伍會的業務"},{"start":10497.096,"end":10519.407,"text":"的推動要很勇敢的跟上面講我們還是要送那我們沒有交代這個我們3月21號才公告所以作業要有一個時程要有一個時間剛才我有聽的這個前面的質詢事實上你"},{"start":10524.691,"end":10551.648,"text":"第一個書面報告你就把書面報告送來就算是專案報告所以你很清楚嘛當過國防部長很多很多解凍案啊就把它寫清楚就送來就送來雖然是三月才這個當時一月就通過了立法院一月就通過了就應該準備好了"},{"start":10552.796,"end":10580.695,"text":"既然這個業務是這麼重要就應該準備好了雖然行政院在總統在3月20號左右才公告但是現在已經4月出了所以如果你在3月20號以前也就是去在今年的1月立法院三讀通過之後認為這個需要一定要這個經費"},{"start":10582.878,"end":10604.315,"text":"那就應該送就應該準備好了就應該準備好了所以這個部分請這個退伍會請主委趕快把解凍不管是書面報告或是要狀況報告都一樣要送來好不好我們會儘快完成準備謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10608.568,"end":10630.7,"text":"好 謝謝天才委員 謝謝好 那這個今天看起來很多人關心但是我還是要再強調一次這一個是一個禮拜前才復會才剛完所以真的是可能沒有辦法那麼迅速接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢葉元之在 ON"},{"start":10640.37,"end":10643.573,"text":"麻煩請退伍會主委謝謝有請主委謝謝葉委員好主委好我們現在是那個超高齡的社會了我必須要非常肯定就是其實在我們板橋的板橋農家辦得非常好在3月的時候美國一個海外的作戰退伍軍人協會他到板橋農家參訪高度的肯定板橋農家的服務品質"},{"start":10669.441,"end":10683.059,"text":"但現在有非常多的人想要進到板橋農家可是就是一直進不去我們來看一下一個數據是板橋農家在一般的安養公費部分現在有270個人在等"},{"start":10685.362,"end":10699.759,"text":"那自費部分有907個人在等他都是比其他的農家多很多啦我相信這一部分可能也是因為我們農家除了辦得好之外我們交通啊 附近的資源是比較多所以大家都想要進板橋農家"},{"start":10700.82,"end":10723.193,"text":"那我們板橋很多在地的一些居民他們的長輩送到龍家去像有一位板橋的那就是想要進板橋龍家就進不去所以他就去了台北龍家可是就一直想要回板橋龍家結果前一段時間家屬跟我們講說他就是等不到然後後來也過世就是到過世之前都一直沒有辦法進到板橋龍家就是自己的家鄉"},{"start":10724.266,"end":10740.117,"text":"所以我是想問說主委我是知道我們板橋農家現在也要蓋一個失智樓嘛那主要是要服務失智的一些長輩吧那針對一般的安養的部分未來有可能會有增加的空間嗎"},{"start":10741.947,"end":10763.939,"text":"他主要就是因為要實質專區實質旅館區的興建所以剛剛委員也提到了那他這個板橋輪廓他範圍有限他範圍有限 如果要再擴建安養的這些塘 園區之前都有盤點過嗎 能夠用的全部都用了嗎範圍應該都用上了 我們請就養處處長說明一下"},{"start":10765.581,"end":10791.843,"text":"委員好 我是救援署署長鄭運國因為施治工程我們總共130床新建事實上板橋的腹地不多它大部分都是公園腹地等於盤點多事實上真的沒有空餘的空間我也知道排的人大概1000多人尤其安養我們是希望說能縮短到其他農家有些伯伯就是執意要板橋農家我們希望說轉到其他農家來住這個我知道 其他農家我知道我們現在是針對板橋農家"},{"start":10793.724,"end":10813.129,"text":"硬體的部分剛剛跟您反映了還有就是有關於軟體的部分因為我上一次在這邊質詢也是有跟主委建議就是說我們現在要增加一些活躍老化的課程後來退伏會是有回我一個文是有提到說你們現在做兩件事情一個是由榮民總醫院 榮院來辦的"},{"start":10815.154,"end":10830.389,"text":"那農院辦的話就是三個月體適能的課程還有認知功能訓練大概是一個就三個月一個禮拜一次然後另外有提到說會配合新北市政府的新北東健康的政策大概會四到十二月來進行"},{"start":10831.601,"end":10845.089,"text":"那這4到12月是分三個階段第一個階段就是做預防延緩失能的介入課程每週一次然後再來就是7到12月就配合新北東健康會找外聘師資來帶領農家的住民進行相關運動課程"},{"start":10847.791,"end":10861.276,"text":"那當然這個你們編22萬預算這個都非常感謝就是對我們那個板橋農民的照顧或者是我們板橋居民的照顧但我上次其實跟主委建議的就是說其實活躍老化它不只是在"},{"start":10862.498,"end":10882.365,"text":"動健康這一塊因為現在按照WTO活躍老化的指標或者是它的定義應該是針對身體心靈跟心理還包括人際各方面都要促進健康那所以目前看起來這個活躍老化的課程比較偏向在運動這一塊所以我是還是"},{"start":10883.652,"end":10908.046,"text":"建議有沒有可能主委這邊還是去研究一下除了運動的方面包括像心靈的提升心理的提升人際健康這幾塊是不是有可能再推出相關的課程出來為什麼我這樣講因為其實活躍老化這是一個國際的趨勢包括台灣現在也都一直在做這個事那活躍老化有一個很重要的指標叫交通的接近性"},{"start":10908.726,"end":10934.675,"text":"就是說你在越便利的地方推這種課程其實對長輩來說他願意來參加但農家就是一個非常好的一個處所為什麼因為大家都住在裡面嘛而且環境很好而且大家住在一起可能大家就熟了嘛所以你如果安排這些課程讓他們去參與的話我覺得參與度是高的而且是可以達到效果的這比起你在其他地方開課什麼的我覺得誘因來得更大"},{"start":10935.575,"end":10953.482,"text":"所以既然我們有那麼好的條件就環境你們可能在這個部分的課程就是軟體的部分提升其實這個投入的資源也不多嘛因為我看你們剛剛講的有關於運動課程其實也就才22萬而已啊所以只要一點點的錢其實就可以達到很好的效果"},{"start":10954.022,"end":10983.097,"text":"不知道那個主委願不願意朝這個方向謝謝委員的關心我們的確希望榮家它是一個非常幸福的一個營養的環境所以陳主任他非常用心他在這一塊最近才辦了一個跟台鐵合作坐台鐵的火車出去旅行就走出戶外走出這個室外的空間那非常的多元化來進行剛剛委員講的活化就是讓他們怎麼樣去"},{"start":10983.857,"end":11012.371,"text":"活躍老化不是活化對 活躍老化的一個活動它有很多的活動 很多的規劃所以我們各個同學都有特色那陳主任非常的用心我們會把我是說系統化啦現在不是說好像哪一個主任很用心他就這邊辦一個活動那邊辦一個活動而是說他可以系統化因為這其實有很多是理論支撐的東西啊你找一些比較懂這一塊的人來做一個課程的規劃嘛這樣會比較系統化我們會請就養處怎麼樣把它系統化再做一個規劃"},{"start":11013.331,"end":11042,"text":"好那如果可以的話是不是也是一樣回一個類似這樣公文給我這樣但是寫得再清楚一點因為上次只給我一頁好謝謝我會送給委員好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝原汁委員那這個接下來有請翁曉琳委員上台質詢翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員不在好那今天已登記的質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":11042.74,"end":11071.992,"text":"那這個本日會議有林益君委員提出書面質詢那就列入記錄並刊登公報那本日委員書面及口頭質詢還沒有答覆的部分或要求補充資料則再請這一個退伏會再以書面來答覆好那我們因為我們等一下要先我們等一下要做這個基金等等相關的這一個審議那我們先等一下在下面所以我們現在先休息10分鐘好不好那我們請議事人員佈置協商的場地"},{"start":11087.902,"end":11096.611,"text":"等一下來宣讀,他說宣讀十分鐘而已OKOK這建議的嗎?"},{"start":11716.826,"end":11734.491,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會那我們來進行這個預算案的處理那請議事人員宣讀預算數及委員的提案目前看起來是有70幾個提案那這個呢 宣讀完畢之後呢請列席官員再移到這個協商桌來處理提案那宣讀大概要10到15分鐘 請宣讀"},{"start":11738.358,"end":11756.338,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會主管甲非營業部分依作業基金國軍退儲役官兵安置基金依業務計劃依依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":11759.282,"end":11760.744,"text":"2.業務收支1."},{"start":11760.744,"end":11761.485,"text":"業務總收入29億4,216萬2千元2."},{"start":11761.485,"end":11761.945,"text":"業務總支出20億8,772萬元3."},{"start":11761.945,"end":11762.246,"text":"本期剩餘8億5,444萬2千元3."},{"start":11762.246,"end":11762.886,"text":"結繳公布金額無列數4."},{"start":11762.886,"end":11762.947,"text":"轉投資計劃1億元"},{"start":11778.085,"end":11797.733,"text":"5.固定资产建设改良扩充2亿4946万4千亿6.国库增波基金额无劣数2.作业基金荣民医疗作业基金一业务计划因依据业务收支转投资固定资产建设改良扩充及资金应用等项支审查结果随同调整2.业务收支一业务总收入"},{"start":11798.433,"end":11826.31,"text":"八百四十七億九千一百九十八萬九千元二 業務總支出八百一十五億四千九百零一萬一千元三 本期剩餘三十二億四千兩百九十七萬八千元三 結繳公庫金額無劣數四 固定資產建設改良擴充六十一億兩百四十萬四千元五 國庫增撥基金額無劣數現在 宣讀委員制預算提案第一案至第四十案為國軍退出一官編安置基金之提案"},{"start":11827.011,"end":11854.472,"text":"第41案至第70案為榮民醫療作業基金資提案第一案台東農場業務收入勞務收入增列198萬5千元委員林楚英等人提案第二案業務收入租金及權利金收入增列300萬元委員陳俊宇等人提案第三案至第4案為管理及總務費用服務費用資預算提案第三案公關未落費"},{"start":11856.399,"end":11882.885,"text":"動結五萬元委員陳俊宇等人提案第四案推產費動結四十萬元委員陳俊宇等人提案第五案至第八案為管理及總務費用之提案第五案動結十萬元委員林楚瑩等人提案第六案動結十萬元委員盧美玲等人提案第七案動結二十萬元委員黃仁等人提案第八案動結一百萬元委員王定宇等人提案第九案至第十一案為"},{"start":11884.569,"end":11907.51,"text":"業務成本與費用退儲役官兵就學進修補助計畫之提案第九案凍結一百萬元委員王定宇等提案第十案凍結一百萬元委員黃仁等提案第十一案凍結一百萬元委員盧美玲等提案第十二案自第十三案為業務成本與費用退儲役官兵職業訓練計畫之提案第十二案"},{"start":11908.651,"end":11932.618,"text":"動結五十萬元委員盧茉瑩等人提案 第四三案動結兩百萬元委員黃仁等人提案 第十四案至第十六案為優惠成本與費用退出與官兵就業輔導計畫之預算提案第十四案服務費用動結三百萬元委員陳俊宇等人提案第十五案捐助補助與獎助動結五十萬元委員陳冠廷等人提案"},{"start":11933.052,"end":11944.918,"text":"第16案 凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第17案 業務成本與費用雜項業務費用凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案第18案至第19案"},{"start":11947.284,"end":11970.72,"text":"為業務成本與費用管理及總共費用之提案第十八案 修理保養及保固費 凍結八萬五千元五元零儲應等提案第十九案 凍結一百萬元五元零儲應等提案第二十案 業務成本與費用 銷貨成本 凍結一百萬元五元陳冠廷等提案第二十一案 業務成本與費用 業務費用 凍結一百萬元五元陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":11971.42,"end":11989.59,"text":"第22案義務成本與費用管理及總務費用凍結100萬元委員陳俊宇等提案第23案固定資產建設改良擴充一次性項目凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案第24案至第40案為主決議現在宣讀主決議之內容第24案"},{"start":11995.142,"end":12020.272,"text":"請國軍退出官兵安置基金比照退輔會所屬醫療機構首長副首長績效平和實施要點引領當轉投資公司發生違反勞動法令受裁罰時相關紀錄須納入會見高階經理人會派代表年度考核之規規範並於三個月內將書面報告送至立法院外交及國防委員會提案人委員陳俊宇等提案第25案"},{"start":12021.403,"end":12041.284,"text":"查近年退除役官兵会外就业安置以私人企业安置居多为平均每家合作企业提供退除役官兵就业人数人数偏低此外2023年部分职类之稳定就业受惠人数或受惠者平均薪资较2022年有效划资情形"},{"start":12042.105,"end":12055.793,"text":"原要求安置基金管理會就上述兩點與三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出檢討改進師書面報告體驗人委員沈伯陽等人第26案退府會彰化農場加一分場"},{"start":12058.094,"end":12085.831,"text":"預計委外經營計劃113年9月及114年3月辦理招商皆未有廠商投標,然而加以分廠作邊旅遊條件及佳因積極與潛在之廠商意見交流並於兩個月內提出書面報告向立法院外交及國防委員會說明招商之進度提案人委員陳冠廷等人第27案退府會台東農場位於原住民"},{"start":12087.304,"end":12105.905,"text":"位于原住民主地区,应积极强化与在地原住民团体之合作,善用农场资源,提升原住民主就业之机会,确保农场与地方原住民团体共荣发展,进而促进区域经济繁荣与社会稳定。提案人,委员黄仁等人。第28案。"},{"start":12108.248,"end":12125.697,"text":"請輔導會因尊重原住民退儲役官兵對國家之貢獻採行更積極之就業輔導作為提升就業成效以彰顯國家對原住民退儲役官兵之照顧並於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人"},{"start":12126.678,"end":12153.042,"text":"第29案退府會就農旗工廠已經被台南市政府公告為自然地景目前台南市政府在進行周邊支援盤點及整合並提出整體規劃就農旗地區提出未來發展方案及分期分區計劃請退府會儘速促請台南市政府完成土地撥用以符合地方民眾期待及促進地方發展提案人為王定宇等人"},{"start":12154.69,"end":12177.327,"text":"第三十案 退府會辦理退廚藝官兵職業訓練計畫為持續有效協助退廚藝官兵尊敬能力及提升準協就業輔導會應就產業環境趨勢適時修正相關訓練做法與課程內容請輔導會於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人 委員王定宇等人"},{"start":12178.047,"end":12206.309,"text":"第三十一案安置基金一百一十四年度預算就學補助津貼及獎勵編列一億兩千零三十四萬四千元為一百一十二年及一百一十三年度截至八月抵止經追蹤計劃訪事後回歸一般就業輔導機制之退除亦官兵各年度受益者均遇兩百人屬無業狀態願要求退輔會提出精進作為提案人員林益君等人第三十二案"},{"start":12207.69,"end":12236.02,"text":"輔導會所管退除役官兵安置基金設有5所農場近3年度部分農場機構致引農場產品銷售觀光旅遊項目之成本收入佔比蓋城增加之趨勢各該農場成本管控能力有待強化體驗人委員林益君等人第33案退除役官兵就學進修補助計畫之補助大專院校進修項目年3年度均有預算操資之情形"},{"start":12237.02,"end":12258.497,"text":"因延時編列 近三年度退除役官兵獲補助參加就業考試補習資錄取率 為及三成退輔會因協助退除役官兵取得專業技能 提高就業考試優勢提案人委員林益君等人 第34案安置接近114年度預算編列退除役官兵職業訓練計畫1億6873萬4千元"},{"start":12264.352,"end":12272.521,"text":"110至113年度截至8月底止,辦理置辦訓練,容有提升空間,因改進並關注就業市場脈動與需求,適時檢討職訓內容,精進職業訓練品質,體驗人委員林益君等人。"},{"start":12280.424,"end":12306.292,"text":"第三十五案安置基金一百一十四年度預算編列促進退儲役官兵穩定就業方案經費五億一千六百六十一萬五千元農林漁牧等市值類一百一十二年度穩定就業受惠人數或受惠者平均薪資均較一百一十一年度有下滑退輔會應持續觀察並追蹤受益者就業之狀況體驗人委員林益君等人"},{"start":12307.301,"end":12330.959,"text":"第36案安置基金辦理退儲役官兵就業輔導計劃110至113年度平均每家合作企業提供退儲役官兵就業人數介於0.98人至2.1人人數偏低應與持續強化與企業協調合作開拓全國具發展性職缺並提升退儲役官兵之推介就業成效提案人委員馬文君等人"},{"start":12332.062,"end":12347.977,"text":"第三十期案鑒於今年度受極低氣候變遷之影響年三年110至112年度安置基金所屬農場之農產品產銷數量衰退不如預期該基金應與妥適因應氣候變遷農產調適作為嚴厲具體可行性質調適方案引進優良品種果苗必促進農產之韌性與產銷績效"},{"start":12357.285,"end":12385.857,"text":"體驗人委員馬文君等人第38案鑒於親近農場民養秀表演契金已逾30年其表演場地長期缺乏戶外遮陽設施不利欣賞舞台表演遊客抱怨年年建議農場應與時俱進增加民養秀場外戶外遮陽設施或是廣直綠運囊道完善旅客舒適觀賞空間云有檢討改進之必要體驗人委員馬文君等人"},{"start":12387.54,"end":12415.391,"text":"第39案國軍退出於官兵輔導委員會近年積極與各部會合作推動推動退出於官兵居民專長轉嫌作業工作及建置居民專長轉嫌運用平台在規劃過程是否導入AI技術運用請國軍退出於官兵輔導委員會於3個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員陳永康的人第40案退輔會轄下高山農場"},{"start":12417.267,"end":12438.484,"text":"部分住宿及油氣設施因老舊旅遭旅客詬病為提升競爭力並優化旅遊品質其需及需進行硬體設施翻新升級以改善旅宿及油氣環境條件請退幅會議兩個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告體驗人委員陳永康等人第41案"},{"start":12441.195,"end":12453.676,"text":"融米醫療作業基金業務成本與費用住院醫療成本凍結100萬元5元王定宇等人提案第42案業務成本與費用醫療成本凍結300萬元5元林楚英等人提案第43案"},{"start":12456.108,"end":12468.056,"text":"業務成本與費用管理費用及總務費用凍結50萬元委員羅美玲等提案第44案業務成本與費用研究發展費用凍結500萬元委員林楚英等提案第45案業務成本與費用訓練費用凍結500萬元委員林楚英等提案第46案其他業務外費用凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第47案業務成本與費用凍結50萬元"},{"start":12482.372,"end":12495.227,"text":"委員黃仁等提案第48案至第55案系固定資產建設改良擴充台北榮民總醫院加速型加速器型棚終止"},{"start":12496.885,"end":12523.471,"text":"補貨治療已知提案第48案檢列2億6千萬元委員林益君等提案第49案檢列2億6千萬元委員馬文君等提案第50案檢列2億6千萬元委員沈伯陽等提案第51案檢列2億6千萬元委員林楚瑩等提案第52案檢列2億6千萬元委員陳俊宇等提案第53案檢列2億6千萬元委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":12524.724,"end":12546.138,"text":"第五十四案 簡列良益六千萬元委員黃仁等提案第五十五案 凍結五十萬元委員徐巧欣等提案第五十六案是第七十二案為主決議現在宣讀主決議之內容第五十六案查一百一十四年度國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會榮米醫療作業基金資營運計畫將發展智慧醫療列為醫療服務項目標之一"},{"start":12553.584,"end":12566.955,"text":"建請國軍退出於官兵輔導委員會與發展相關業務目標時務必與資通安全主管機關積極合作完善相關資安防護措施與人員教育訓練提案人委員沈伯陽等人"},{"start":12568.482,"end":12585.707,"text":"第57案查衛福部中央健保署2025年將陸續推動個別醫院前瞻式預算分區共管事辦計畫為各醫院醫療人員人力短缺問題一發明顯期待積極施行改善措施並"},{"start":12587.73,"end":12603.322,"text":"並視成效調整請國軍退出一官兵輔導委員會依據各榮民總醫院之營運狀況給予必要之協助以確保第一線醫療人員得減輕工作負擔並能提升整體醫療服務品質提案人委員沈伯陽等人第58案"},{"start":12605.85,"end":12632.48,"text":"請國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會就各醫院違反勞動法規部分提出檢討改進措施並於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員沈伯陽等人第五十九案台北榮民總醫院御理及鳳林分院地處偏遠專科醫師招募不易且留任困難予求台北榮民總醫院應統籌醫療人力及資源運用於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出檢討改進之書面報告"},{"start":12634.321,"end":12654.122,"text":"提案人委員沈伯陽等人第六十案各級容院仍應提高公職契約護理師薪資以吸引並穩定護理人才並增加護理人力以減少護理人員非護理性工作及強化分級醫療落實以確保醫療品質及人力資源提案人委員林楚英等人第六十一案"},{"start":12655.629,"end":12663.538,"text":"查近一年內台北榮總高雄榮總北榮桃園分院共計有四次違反勞動基準法規紀錄請退府會確實督導所屬醫療機構檢視現行醫護勞動環境並於三個月內將書面報告送交立法院外交及國防委員會提案人委員陳俊宇等人"},{"start":12674.434,"end":12688.781,"text":"第62案退府會所屬灣橋分院為嘉義縣山區居民依賴之中藥醫療院所護理人員攸關醫療服務量能因積極提出改善措施以提升醫療照顧品質提案人委員陳冠廷等人第63案"},{"start":12690.342,"end":12717.441,"text":"建請國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會研議增加國防醫學院待訓公費生源額分發至所屬花東三院服務造福花東更多知名眾以促進花東人民健康提案人委員黃仁等人第六十四案退服會所屬容院配合衛福部政策積極推動住院整合照護服務計畫透過共聘照服員方式減輕護理人員非技術性照護及數目工作負荷"},{"start":12718.902,"end":12743.401,"text":"請退府衛生給予內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王定宇等人第65案參與獎鑄部件鑄數是長照機構公共化資源計畫之多家醫院計畫預算執行率偏低應積極追蹤管制實地勘查排除自愛並提升預算執行率及工程之品質提案人委員林奕君等人第66案護理人員"},{"start":12745.542,"end":12759.091,"text":"離職人數持續增加多家醫院人力短缺問題一發明顯期待積極實施改善措施並視成效調整必維持照護品質與要求退輔會經濟護理人力作為提案人委員林益君等人第67案據輔導會所屬榮民之家"},{"start":12765.424,"end":12791.4,"text":"整體之戰床率位及八成, 擁有檢討空間,應託處育理及鳳林分院地處偏遠。專科醫師招募不易,且留任困難,應積極招募。專科醫師、復健科、骨科等專科醫師之醫生。提案人委員林益君等人。第68案,經查榮民醫療作業基金所屬部分醫院,近年度急性後期照護病床,有使用情形不佳或大幅下降之情形,"},{"start":12792.641,"end":12804.116,"text":"請退輔會因擬輕問題癥結並以潛在之需求脫除並提升適切之急性醫療整合性照護服務提案人為馬文君等人第69案請退輔會針對護理人員空缺積極提高預算員額並給予較高正值人員之名額"},{"start":12810.812,"end":12835.841,"text":"採行增加留任獎金提高起薪調薪夜班費鼓勵退休人員回任等措施必維持照護品質及醫療服務量能提案人為馬文君等人第七十案建請國軍退出一官兵及早規劃將智慧型科技導入農家與農種及分院其能落實預防延緩農家長輩罹患失智及減輕照護者身心負擔請國軍退出一官兵輔導委員會於兩個月內"},{"start":12837.922,"end":12862.579,"text":"向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員陳永康等人第七十一案現行榮民總醫院量能過度消耗基層診所使用率不足導致分級醫療體系無法發揮效益榮福處與榮總應共同篩選社區優質特約衛生診所提供部分醫療費用優惠提升基層醫療利用率"},{"start":12863.439,"end":12891.579,"text":"使醫療服務全面化原件請國軍退出於官兵輔導委員會於兩個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人為陳永康等人第七十二案衛福部於113年3月1日實施推動三班戶病比標準制度為退輔會少數容院三班戶病比為達標準國軍退出於官兵輔導委員會應檢討增加護理人力提升薪資及福利建置友善工作環境"},{"start":12892.64,"end":12899.874,"text":"请退府会与两个院令向立法院外交及国防委员会提出书面报告提案人委员陈永康等人宣读完毕"},{"start":12902.179,"end":12926.936,"text":"好 謝謝大家那這個議事人員現在已經宣讀完畢了那我們在進行這個主案討論之前我們先來跟各位說明我們依循往例我們有幾個處理的大原則第一個原則就是呢如果退伏會已經有向提案委員提案委員如果已經有說明了而且有達成共識就直接報告這個溝通的成果好不好就溝通的成果包含說到底是凍結還是刪減還有建議的數額就直接報告"},{"start":12929.978,"end":12946.694,"text":"那如果這個委員如果有其他的提問就直接也再補充說明我們這樣也比較迅速然後第二個就是大家應該有拿到列表我們這個預算提案我們就以分支計劃作為併案的原則好不好就是如果分支計劃不同的話我們就還是分開處理那我們當然試討論可以彈性處理"},{"start":12948.576,"end":12967.654,"text":"那并案冻结或删减就选择其中一个提案当作主案的方式来处理这跟我们上个会期应该都一样那第三就是主提案人如果不在场的话呢我们原则上不处理除非他刚好有委托来一个其他的委员然后帮忙讲好那我们现在开始进行审查"},{"start":12969.895,"end":12982.913,"text":"好那我們首先先從這個國軍退役這個退除役退除役官兵安置基金我們開始來主案討論那我們先從第一案開始第一案呢有關這個台東農場的這個勞務收入部分請退輔會說明這個比較特別這個是增列的"},{"start":12990.492,"end":13005.701,"text":"第一案有關台東農場業務收入向下勞務收入提案委員為林楚瑩委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意增列收入150萬元好那楚瑩委員有沒有什麼要補充"},{"start":13006.221,"end":13009.142,"text":"好我這邊補充就是當時我本來當然是說是兩百萬因為你們受到這個發展觀光條例落日條款往後延五年的關係那麼當然我覺得現在旅遊打開之後還是很缺這個就是休閒的地方那麼當然"},{"start":13023.249,"end":13037.466,"text":"如果一百五十萬的話我相信你們在KPI當中比較容易達標啦所以我覺得就這樣成一百五十萬但是我還是認為啦多增加一點收入絕對對於整體的同仁來講本身還是一種另外一種激勵啦好不好"},{"start":13039.261,"end":13068.148,"text":"好 那沒有問題的話呢那我們就第一案這個增列150萬150萬元好 那我們接下來處理第二案第二案是有關這個租金及權利金收入的部分也先請退府會說明第二案有關安置基金業務收入向下租金及權利金收入提案委員為陳俊宇委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意增列收入50萬元"},{"start":13070.151,"end":13085.049,"text":"好 那就有沒有什麼要補充好 原本我是增列300萬那經過協調之後就是增列50那增列50應該沒問題吧好 那就同意增列50好"},{"start":13086.533,"end":13106.397,"text":"好那我們就沒問題第二案增列50萬我增列50萬元好接下來我們並案處理這一個第三案跟第四案他們的分支計劃是相同的都是這個管理費及總務費用那這個是有關安置基金管理費管理會的管理費用及總務費用那請退副會說明"},{"start":13108.939,"end":13125.577,"text":"第三至四案並案有關安置基金管理會管理及總務費用向下公關未到費及推展費提案委員為陳俊宇委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意並第五之八案辦理好那因為這兩案的這一個都是俊宇委員嘛有沒有什麼要補充的"},{"start":13133.439,"end":13145.106,"text":"好還是尊重我們業務單位因為原本是凍結一個是五萬塊一個是四十萬那後來協調之後就是併案併案凍六十萬那應該沒問題吧好那就照凍六十萬好"},{"start":13154.983,"end":13170.794,"text":"那就那這三四併本來是想說要不要跟5到8一起不過我們今天又分支計劃了那我們就先三四併好不好那所以呢我們這個第三案至第四案併案那我們因為兩案都是駿魚委員那就以駿魚委員的這一個第三案為主案好不好第三案為主案"},{"start":13171.514,"end":13188.737,"text":"那目前的這個決定是凍結60萬元那提出書面報告那這邊要稍微確認一下因為在這一個這兩岸都是寫提出書面報告還要經同意那想確認一下是要提出書面報告就好了還是要提出書面報告還要經同意 遲得凍結"},{"start":13197.25,"end":13213.802,"text":"我先確認一下這一個是要書面同意提出書面報告就好了提出書面報告我更正一下因為剛剛第三案跟第四案的金額是第四案比較高所以我們是第三案至第四案併案以陳俊宇委員的第四案為主案凍結60萬元提出書面報告後時的凍值"},{"start":13219.636,"end":13246.954,"text":"好那我們針對所有這個以後這個之後病案凍結的情形那退府會答覆的這個書面報告請這一個如果是病案委員的提案的質詢事項然後也包含就足以回覆那我們就下面就不足以宣告了好那我們接續我們來處理這個第五案到第八案這一個是安置基金管理會的這個管理及總務費用其實這個退府會說明"},{"start":13248.342,"end":13263.062,"text":"第五至第八案并案有关安置基金管理会管理及总务费用提案委员为林楚英罗美林黄仁昭委及王地宇等委员以至委员办公室说明及提供资料"},{"start":13264.403,"end":13279.232,"text":"懇請委員同意第3至8案定案凍結管理及總務費用60萬元提書面報告後 使得凍資誒 這個齁 因為剛剛這個 因為剛剛是3、4案病 我沒有跟5到8病嘛但因為3到4剛剛是60對不對 3到4剛剛是60了所以呢 我們這邊"},{"start":13286.591,"end":13302.957,"text":"對 因為剛剛本來本來他們在協商的時候是想要3到8一起併那因為第八案是這一個100 對 是100嘛所以用這一個然後減成60啦那所以的話呢對5到8併那3到4要維持60嗎3到8我先問一下然後你想一下嗯"},{"start":13307.822,"end":13325.667,"text":"主委我們退府會曾經在太北其實我們現在是講霸是不是我們曾經在那邊的人員 送霸在那邊其實很送敬重他過世的時候那個太皇的哥哥還把那個地方降半旗"},{"start":13326.747,"end":13342.199,"text":"我知道你們這些有跟台北相關的交流計劃那上面我問了一下我們現在農場都沒有我們的人了當地還有一些學校那個大概是屬於交友會的業務所以我是凍結的數額我們討論好我不去變動它了因為這一次緬甸的地震"},{"start":13343.32,"end":13371.233,"text":"泰國人常講他們國家沒地震所以這一次連泰邊境那邊傷害很大我會建議退伏會以前的情誼都在那裡我們那邊還有一些街頭的人那以往那個地方很複雜美斯樂那邊非常複雜有屬於我們國安局業務的有屬於我們退伏會業務的有屬於僑委會業務的甚至於美國各方面那邊蠻複雜但這一次是人道的部分那我們本來跟泰北有一些計畫那是不是"},{"start":13372.173,"end":13378.297,"text":"他們現在地震當中 退府會是不是關心一下看有沒有什麼可以協助的地方 這個我建議"},{"start":13381.898,"end":13407.005,"text":"請退伏會要不要回覆一下王委員剛剛問的問題其實我們因為從109年因為疫情關係所以說我們跟泰國的交流大概中斷了6年時間那我們從111年開始我們就主動邀請泰國的駐台代表到我們福壽山農場去參訪今年我們還是邀請了駐台代表還有他們外交部的國際合作司副司長也來了"},{"start":13407.805,"end":13433.357,"text":"那得到很多很正面的回應他也邀請我們六月份要回訪他們那回訪他們大概主要是曼谷跟另外一個就是剛剛講安康農場那些地方但是上禮拜地震以後我們輔導會第一時間我們就致電兩個單位就表達我們的關心了那六月份能不能呈訪因為現在災後復原階段我們現在還要再觀察這個事情特別跟王委員報告"},{"start":13440.643,"end":13449.912,"text":"五到八案每一位委員的提案內容其實是不一樣的我這部分是看到台北市政府勞動局在2025年1月公佈新興客運"},{"start":13454.196,"end":13480.636,"text":"他是違反這個勞基法那裁罰的這個金額呢其實是所有罰還金額排序是前五名那當然你們後來有做了一個書面的這個報告可是我還是需要一個口頭的這個說明因為你們有提到說這是因為計分方式變動的關係所以可能跟這個有關係所以變成說他的金額是會到前五名我想這個可能是要我想很多委員應該都會希望知道說為什麼欣欣"},{"start":13482.177,"end":13490.805,"text":"客運的罰緩會是在這個所有的153個事業單位裡面的前五名我想這個蠻嚴重的問題這就再說明一下謝謝委員 報告委員跟您報告為什麼新興客運會被罰緩這麼多其實這個是牽扯到救治勞退基金的問題"},{"start":13502.484,"end":13527.725,"text":"新興客運越是公營四頁,它的客運一頁,所以它的盈餘都很差一年大概一到兩千萬,他們所有盈餘都一年都平均盈餘尤其前幾年疫情期間它更差但是它的救治的勞動費基金要提撥一點多億所以說它實在沒有能力說我從口袋裡面掏錢出來給它我沒想到說用貸款的方式"},{"start":13528.345,"end":13553.772,"text":"可是貸款的利息比台北市的罰款還要多所以我們才做了計畫逐年來攤還那今年3月底我們已經把所有錢的勞退基金都補足了這個是我們按照規劃來進行的規劃原本就是今年的3月把它完成補足大概是所以113年之後我們還是會被罰款45萬元特別跟委員已經解決了這個問題"},{"start":13558.26,"end":13576.408,"text":"好 那處理委員謝謝主席本席所提出的這個部分雖然是在同一筆預算底下不過就處美麟委員所說的一樣大家關注的不太一樣本席其實一直關注的就是有關於國有土地被佔有的部分那麼在八百八十萬當中其實我只凍結十萬的原因是因為"},{"start":13577.228,"end":13596.409,"text":"我還是肯定退府會現在用無人機的方式來減輕就是我們人力上面的負擔但是對於國有土地被佔有的這個部分我還是強烈的必須要求就是在有效的方式把它給收回來做更有效的運用跟使用因為這是土地正義當中非常重要的一環"},{"start":13597.25,"end":13610.567,"text":"所以我只以凍結十萬但是當然我同意就是跟其他委員一起來並案審查因為我覺得數額不重要重要的是還是必須要讓退伏會以及向下所管理的這些土地尤其是農場在營運的過程使用當中還是必須屬於國家的土地就是要要回來"},{"start":13615.794,"end":13632.665,"text":"那麼我只是希望能夠留作一個記錄表示退服會也有這個想法跟希望那麼在這個部分當然因為凍結就表示你們有其他更有效的處理方法的時候把報告交上來然後持續的讓管理的這些同仁們他有一個方向去依循那其實我們就可以解凍了是 謝謝委員 沒有問題"},{"start":13636.509,"end":13651.071,"text":"我們這幾年的排占率我們自己統計大概排占了百分之八十幾現在只剩下少部分的包含花蓮那個沙子廠我們都要回來了我們通通都要回來了而且我也已經出去了所以還是給予肯定是 謝謝委員"},{"start":13651.698,"end":13655.201,"text":"主席抱歉剛剛3到4案應該在溝通的時候是3到8案併案對3到8案3到8案所以請剛剛因為我們剛剛講說3到4案動60那3到8案一起討論"},{"start":13674.875,"end":13691.578,"text":"因為剛剛因為本來是要按照分支計劃分但是因為溝通的結果是想說3到8因為畢竟他的業務計劃都是一樣的那我們就真的在場委員的同意那因為黃人委員不在那剛剛其他相關跟這一個管理跟總務費用提案的委員對於3到8那個併案有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":13692.68,"end":13706.655,"text":"應該沒有那沒有的話呢我們因為這個金額比較高的是這個王定宇委那我們是不是把第三案到第八案併案那先以這個王定宇委員的這個第八案作為主案然後呢凍結六十萬好不好凍結六十萬"},{"start":13707.396,"end":13724.023,"text":"那這邊我再講一次因為畢竟我們3到8是併的比較多但是還是請退伏會答覆的時候不能只是答覆第8案而已就是每一案所有的委員他們剛剛的concern他們剛剛的主張都一定要一併回覆那以下就不知道說明了這個是書面報告後時的動之"},{"start":13731.462,"end":13742.077,"text":"好那這個接下來我們接續我們併案處理第九案至第十一案這個是有關這個退出一官兵就學的進修的補助計劃先請退輔會說明"},{"start":13743.257,"end":13765.055,"text":"召委各位委員好我是就學就業處處長池玉蘭第九到第十一案病案有關安置基金管理會其他業務費用退出一官兵就學進修補助計畫提案委員為王定宇委員黃仁召委以及羅美玲委員等人均引至委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意病案凍結一百萬提書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":13767.717,"end":13777.38,"text":"好那這邊是黃委員跟美林委員黃任委員在嗎不在吼那這個立委員跟這一個美林委員有沒有什麼要補充的"},{"start":13780.172,"end":13799.182,"text":"協調的數額是100嘛好那如果這樣沒有問題的話呢那我們就這一個第九案至第十一案然後併案那我們以這一個羅美玲委員的第十一案為主案好不好羅美玲委員主案那這個呢我們的結論是這個併案凍結100萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資"},{"start":13804.565,"end":13826.738,"text":"好那接下來呢我們來處理第十二案到第十三案十二十二十三一起齁請這個退幅會說明第十二至第十三案並案有關安置基金管理會其他業務費用退出於官兵職業訓練計畫提案委員為羅美玲委員及黃仁昭偉等人均以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意並案凍結一百萬提書面報告後使得凍資好那這個嘿請"},{"start":13833.91,"end":13851.3,"text":"這題呢是其實跟早上的質詢是有關係我要講的就是說因為黃人偉委員沒來是不是就不處理嗎是不是是這樣子嗎黃人偉委員不在嘛不在是不處理因為我現在凍結的部分是五十萬那您願意就是凍到一百萬嗎五十萬一百萬是我的啦"},{"start":13857.745,"end":13864.756,"text":"可是你這裡沒有啊?十二十三啊?我跟黃忍而已啊?對,我跟黃忍啊那50萬?那就50啦謝謝委員"},{"start":13869.471,"end":13894.277,"text":"好好那我們就第十二十三號第我們以為就只有GT12案因為這個黃仁委員不在那我們的這一個呢我們這個凍結最後是五十萬元提出書面告報告後時的動之那接下來呢我們接續處理第十四案至第十六案我們接續併案處理這是有關退儲役官兵的就業輔導計劃那請這一個托福會說明"},{"start":13896.943,"end":13915.843,"text":"第十四至第十六案病案有關安置基金管理會其他業務費用退出於官兵就業輔導計畫提案委員為陳俊宇委員陳冠廷委員及王定宇委員等人均以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意病案凍結一百萬提書面報告後使得動之好那各位有沒有要補充請冠廷"},{"start":13925.099,"end":13949.537,"text":"簡單說我看從111年到114年今年不算113年為止的話預算的未執行的這個率是蠻蠻嚴重的那都都是500多600多500多那預算都是700多所以是希望說能夠改進我本來是說動武士啊可是看大家的決定好那那個據委員會第一委員有沒有要補充的"},{"start":13951.161,"end":13953.403,"text":"我一直說我們有相關的事業單位我們的持股比例跟安置就業的比例要盡量相符目前還有新章距離比較遠"},{"start":13976.701,"end":14005.716,"text":"就只有他我們這幾年去鎖定這個我謝謝退伏會因為我們希望去安置就業不只是高階的將領軍官我們希望基層的他真的需要那一碗飯他退伍他需要一個工作而我們軍人的優秀不能說老是做三保工作保全那什麼的所以你們這幾年確實把那數字拉起來我看了整個統計所有新自備的大概都達標只有張化這個沒有達標有沒有特別的原因"},{"start":14008.213,"end":14021.34,"text":"謝謝委員的關心您的關心之下我們從原本109年10%漲到現在19%上禮拜我們副副主委為了這個問題親自去拜訪了他們朱董事長也跟朱董事長談了這個問題而且是運用董事會力量去談了這個問題其他名股的董事會力量朱董事長當場也引問我們副副主委"},{"start":14036.482,"end":14054.998,"text":"他會開很多直接出來給我們的人然後我們再透過我們執訓中心的合作兩個方面的合作來開發我們榮福處的推薦因為現在我們台中榮福處處長就是他們的股東董事就運用這種關係來協助他們把我們基層的官兵安置到你們繼續努力我還是會"},{"start":14056.98,"end":14073.098,"text":"就業也不是一出可及有時候有職缺你們不見得有人所以要長期看那個線性的發展那現在那個條線看起來整體是有上來現在就剩下那個新章然後我們曾經提過台灣現在缺兩萬五千個護理師我們訓跟就職就是訓跟就職之間"},{"start":14075.721,"end":14096.131,"text":"衛福部那邊應該要趕快提出一些護佐的基本的訓練課程我們的退伍軍人可以訓練成為護佐那經過專業考試成為護理師那將來支援我們威哥那邊點頭我們很多醫院的樓層關掉是因為缺護理師他去分擔他一些工作那對我退伍軍人來講這份待遇如果還不錯"},{"start":14097.031,"end":14113.157,"text":"然後我們在急診室什麼有一些男性的護佐其實對急診室的安全也有所幫助啦所以這個部分一方面我要求衛福部另外一方面我們這邊是不是跟衛福部溝通訂出一個標準因為我們護佐很久沒有了就訂出一個訓練之後他成為護佐人員"},{"start":14113.937,"end":14137.288,"text":"那有受過大專護理師訓練的人只考不上護理師執照的先從護佐過渡到護理師沒有這樣專長的透過部隊的我們的EMT EMTJ這些訓練完他成為護理護佐那一方面幫助就業二方面解決現在我們國家缺護理人員非常嚴重這個要拜託你們這個要把它當作一件事情來處理謝謝謝謝委員好"},{"start":14140.339,"end":14168.509,"text":"那這樣如果沒有問題的話我們就第十四案到第十六案併案那我們以這個陳俊宇委員的第十四案為主案然後凍結一百萬元那要提出這個書面報告後時的通知是好 那接下來我們進入第十七案雖然是 這個是 你去問這個但是他是放在雜項裡面的業務然後那不是同一個輔導計畫那我們就獨立處理第十七案先請退輔會說明"},{"start":14169.431,"end":14169.631,"text":"好 那馬文維"},{"start":14186.657,"end":14191.12,"text":"金耳部分有討論過同意凍結30萬不過我們還是要特別強調因為我們今天在質詢的時候也提到我們一直不管你要用什麼對接的方式或者你直顯你要怎麼樣去對照或者像我們現在質詢近兩年它沒有辦法達到理想我們自己都找不出原因的話你後續要推的那個都有困難"},{"start":14213.874,"end":14218.975,"text":"那為什麼沒有辦法達到那個目標額很重要的就是我們有提到證照嘛因為你如果沒有證照你現在所有的各行各業都需要不管是水電不管包括你有很多的廚師十一住行有很多其實都需要所以證照的部分怎麼樣去協助他們取得或者在軍中怎麼樣可以轉換我想這個可以整體的去做一個考量那凍結數統一30萬"},{"start":14242.182,"end":14259.679,"text":"我們希望可以有一個具體的一個改善的方案還有早上我們提到的就是怎麼樣委外我們需要那個資料一併提供謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝馬委員那我們還是原則是不是就是提出書面報告以後是的 董事因為你原來有寫同意好"},{"start":14261.057,"end":14283.052,"text":"那我們現在就是第17案,我們的決定是凍結30萬元然後提出書面報告後,使得凍值主席,我的還是要經同意好了要經同意是不是?對對對,謝謝好,沒問題的話我再唸一次,那就第17案,我們凍結30萬元要提出書面報告後,並經同意後,使得凍值"},{"start":14285.086,"end":14313.36,"text":"好 接下來我們接續併案處理第十八案跟第十九案是有關彰化農場的這個管理費用及這個總務費用請退伏會先說明第十八案是第十九案併案有關彰化農場管理及總務費用向下修理保養及保固費提案委員為林祖英委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意併案凍結管理及總務費用一百萬元提書面報告後 使得通知"},{"start":14315.612,"end":14335.999,"text":"好我想這個彰化農場的事情審計部也有就是查核發現有這個所謂廠商違反規定然後有關於這個違建的部分是已經拆了沒問題那有關於後續的這個標案的部分當然就是還是請你們詢問這個所謂潛在的廠商想趕快把這個標案能夠做一個完善的處理那金額沒有問題"},{"start":14337.509,"end":14361.558,"text":"謝委員好那如果沒有問題的話呢那我們就第十八案第十八案第十九案併案那就以第十九案為主案因為都是這個處理委員那最後呢就是建議我們就是併案凍結然後那就併案凍結一百萬提出書面報告後時的凍結那接下來呢我們接續處理第二十案請退幅會說明"},{"start":14363.271,"end":14376.191,"text":"第二十案有關業務成本與費用銷貨成本提案委員為陳冠廷委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意凍結五十萬元提書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":14383.015,"end":14408.652,"text":"對請謝謝我們有看一下就是主要是看這個比例跟達標率那從一年來到一二年那他的達標率是沒有成長甚至有下降好的趨勢比較不穩定那是說但是因為溝通之後我們是同意就是改動五十萬主要是還是希望你們有把你們的預算說明能夠做到就開發新的節水技術等等產銷履歷驗證等等"},{"start":14410.954,"end":14425.033,"text":"這樣的話再麻煩了好那沒問題的話呢我們宣告處理結果那就第20案那我們呢凍結50萬元要提出書面報告後時得凍資那我們接下來處理第21案"},{"start":14428.374,"end":14438.2,"text":"第二十一案有關業務成本與業務費用 提案委員為陳冠廷委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料 懇請委員同意改組決議"},{"start":14450.507,"end":14453.989,"text":"第二十二案有關管理及總務費用提案委員為陳俊宇委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意凍結五十萬元提書面報告後 使得凍資"},{"start":14472.196,"end":14492.201,"text":"好 俊宇有要補充說明嗎好 沒有就同意那個改50萬凍結凍結50萬因為本來是看他那個違法佔用的這個件數逐年下降實際上可能用的這個金額可能沒那麼多那協調之後我同意啦 同意就凍結50萬"},{"start":14494.278,"end":14517.13,"text":"好 那我們宣告處理結果 這個第22案我們凍結50萬元那要提出書面報告後 使得凍資那我們接續處理第23案 請退幅會說明第23案有關清淨農場一般建築及設備計畫提案委員為馬文君委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意30萬元提書面報告後 使得凍資"},{"start":14521.64,"end":14523.702,"text":"因為這個案子主要是在近五年我們看到那個綿羊的死亡數其實在111年的時候是最多有"},{"start":14544.122,"end":14546.905,"text":"高達77頭的綿羊死亡那113年又比112年多112有降下來可是113又有將近50頭的綿羊又有死亡然後問那個原因大概是因為流浪犬的問題"},{"start":14563.882,"end":14566.403,"text":"其實我們也非常謝謝親近農場在上一次針對有一些蒙古國來做一些馬術表演的時候我們有做很多的硬體設施其實有立即改善那我們既然要收費我們也希望提供給不管遊客或者國人來的時候都有更好的一個旅遊觀光品質可是也相對的因為我們在親近農場也養了很多的動物"},{"start":14589.409,"end":14601.077,"text":"不管是馬、羊或者其他的小動物我們都希望其實牠每一個生命都非常的重要那既然已經發現牠可能會受到流浪犬的攻擊我們就應該要好好的去把它做好牠的防護或者牠的安全或是做更好的照顧那這個部分有什麼樣積極的作為是有來報告可是我們希望可以立即很快的去做改善同意凍結30萬謝謝委員"},{"start":14619.168,"end":14639.926,"text":"好那沒有問題的話呢我們來保護這些養妹妹那我們來宣告處理結果這個第23案那我們最後是凍結30萬元然後剛剛按照馬尾是要提出書面報告並經同意並經同意使得凍之好那接下來就在安置基金的部分我們接續要主案處理主決議的部分"},{"start":14640.606,"end":14651.823,"text":"那如果機關針對該項主決議是沒有意見的就直接回覆遵照辦理這樣就可以了那如果有修正意見的話請具體說明修正的文字來給委員們討論那我們現在先處理主決議的第24案"},{"start":14658.942,"end":14679.023,"text":"遵照辦理好那我們第24案主決議照案通過那我們現在處理主決議第25案遵照辦理好那第25案我們就照案通過那現在處理26案26案遵照辦理好那第26案我們照案通過接續處理第27案主決議"},{"start":14682.162,"end":14706.307,"text":"27案 遵照辦理好 那27案主決議照案通過那我們現在處理第28案遵照辦理好 那第28案主決議照案通過那第29案29案遵照辦理好 那第29案主決議照案通過第30案遵照辦理好 那第30案主決議照案通過第31案遵照辦理好 那第31案主決議照案通過第32案呢"},{"start":14709.258,"end":14728.926,"text":"還是我的好遵照辦理好那第32案主決議照案通過第33案遵照辦理好第33案主決議照案通過第34案遵照辦理好那第34案主決議照案通過第35案遵照辦理第35案主決議照案通過第36案遵照辦理"},{"start":14729.286,"end":14755.542,"text":"那第36案主決議照案通過第37案遵照辦理那第37案主決議照案通過第38案遵照辦理那第38案主決議照案通過第39案遵照辦理那第39案主決議照案通過第40案遵照辦理第40案主決議照案通過那我們再來處理新增的這個主決議剛剛改主決議的共一案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":14757.663,"end":14782.117,"text":"原來的第21案就是剛剛應該是冠廷的那一案嗎要改組決議第41案國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會主管安置基金業務費用主要用於各農場推廣農產品及發展油氣旅遊觀光資金費支出事項預算編列近年來有增加之情形然而農場之住宿成本增加幅度大於收入之情形執行成果"},{"start":14783.578,"end":14798.425,"text":"衛達期待以通盤監討農場住宿成本管控同步改善旅宿設施及遊器環境提供優質之旅遊體驗以提升觀光服務品質增進經營績效體驗委員陳冠廷等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":14804.366,"end":14818.34,"text":"好那我們這個第41的這個主決議照案通過好那我們接續我們來主案討論另外一個就是榮民醫療這個部分榮民醫療的作業基金好那我們先從第41案開始請退幅會說明"},{"start":14819.418,"end":14820.179,"text":"好 這邊是定於委員的第41案有沒有什麼要補充說明"},{"start":14853.496,"end":14870.295,"text":"我們現在在農民醫院體系醫師的流動率還好 穩定嘛護理師的狀況怎麼樣目前護理師的護病比也都是足夠的足夠嗎是足夠 而且我們的離職率比全國的平均率還要低你確定足夠嗎確定足夠 是威哥你們夠"},{"start":14876.192,"end":14879.054,"text":"因為我現在要薪資的調整我們好像剛進來的門診護理師薪水是三萬出頭對不對沒有 full time 的全職的是不是三萬出頭我講的是一般門診護理師"},{"start":14896.687,"end":14916.064,"text":"好像是三萬出頭因為這樣的待遇對護理師來講他的工作的負荷loading跟報酬之間能不能達到長留久用這可能要研究一下我們像北龍市大概北台灣最大的單一量體醫院可能要做示範帶頭的作用這給你們建議"},{"start":14918.339,"end":14938.03,"text":"好那如果没有问题的话那我们刚刚建议的这个冻结数是50嘛对不对好那我们来这个宣告处理结果第41案最后是冻结50万元提出书面报告后时得冻之那我们接续处理第42案请退幅会说明"},{"start":14938.43,"end":14949.381,"text":"第42案有關榮民醫療作業金醫療成本提案委員為林楚瑩委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意改為主決議辦理好 楚瑩委員"},{"start":14952.718,"end":14963.566,"text":"為了節省大家時間那我就一併說明一下有關於我提的424445我都全部改成了主決議那主要其實我這些提案都是希望能夠針對因為我們其實在我們的所有的醫院當中大家是我們的服務我們的榮民嘛那我們的榮民當中年紀也都偏高"},{"start":14971.212,"end":14992.835,"text":"那麼如何在他們就醫的過程當中能夠透過AI或者是其他的這些機器服務能夠整體來提升他們在就醫上面不只是平值而且甚至於是在就醫的時候可以更方便他們在就醫那所以等一下就不用特別報告就是我所提的4445都全部改成主決議"},{"start":14994.056,"end":15011.159,"text":"然後我也代替羅美玲委員報告她的43案也改成主決議所以就是42到45統統改成主決議謝謝委員謝謝主席42到45是不是42到45所以剛剛第43案也一併幫羅美玲委員說明是不是好"},{"start":15012.06,"end":15035.587,"text":"那這樣的話呢那我們就處理結果我們第42案到這一個第45案都改成主決議因為有三個是儲殷委員提案一個是梅林委員的提案那麼就一併42案到第45案改為主決議那待會再宣讀那我們接下來處理第46案第46案請特輔會說明第46案有關農民醫療作業金"},{"start":15041.054,"end":15069.84,"text":"業務外費用向下其他業務外費用提案委員為王定宇委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意改為主決議辦理好那定宇委員這一個就是你是不是也跟剛剛前面一樣改為主決議好那這個我們處理結果第46案也改為主決議那我們接下來處理第4747第47案華人委員華人委員不在那那小新委員要幫他要幫他講第47案嗎"},{"start":15072.438,"end":15076.023,"text":"他好像有溝通是要弄主決議是不是還是"},{"start":15077.267,"end":15083.591,"text":"47啊 我不太確定改主決議改主決議了吧她拿了書面來說要改主決議改主決議 謝謝好 那我們第47案也改成主決議那接下來我們併案處理第48案至第55案這個是有關台北榮民總醫院加速氣型這個膨中子不獲治療儀的部分那把它分兩個部分是因為這個因為後來拿到捐款所以我知道很多委員提的這個是這一個直接減2億6千萬"},{"start":15107.607,"end":15122.894,"text":"但是這個巧馨委員有提這個另外凍結無時所以是不是先請這個巧馨說明補充說明這一個部分其實我沒有任何意見因為他本來是要來做這些醫療方面的"},{"start":15123.434,"end":15140.642,"text":"那但是呢後來已經找到了這個能夠提供資助者好所以無論是用刪減的方式或是用凍結的方式那我個人在這裡是沒有意見的那我只凍結50萬元就是希望給他們一些鼓勵而已就這樣子謝謝那退伏在這邊呢有沒有要說明的"},{"start":15141.858,"end":15168.097,"text":"第四十八案到第五十五案 並按悉 農民醫療作業基金台北農民總醫院固定資產建設改良擴充項目下台北農民總醫院加速器型膨脹止薄荷治療提案委員分別為 沈博洋召委 黃仁召委 林益君委員 馬文君委員 林儲銘委員 陳靜雲委員 陳冠林委員 徐巧欣委員進行到委員辦公室說明及提供資料因為目前已經獲得善心人士的見證 興建"},{"start":15170.759,"end":15180.365,"text":"懇請委員同意減列2.6億元減列2.6億那我們就不另外凍結這樣是如果可以不要另外凍結非常感恩那我們就這個第48案到第55案我們來宣告這個48到55的處理結果我們就以林益君委員的"},{"start":15192.332,"end":15214.313,"text":"的領域軍委第48案為主案好不好 領域軍委員那最後的是簡列2.6億 簡列2.6億好 接下來 接下來又是 接下來是組決議了好 那接下來組決議那我們就跟剛剛一樣 如果說就是是遵照辦理的話就直接說遵照辦理那我們先來看第56案"},{"start":15216.448,"end":15245.198,"text":"遵照辦理好那第56案我們就改成主決議照案通過第57案遵照辦理好那第57案改主決議照案不是改主決議57案主決議照案通過第58案遵照辦理好那我們就第58案主決議照案通過第59案遵照辦理那第59案主決議照案通過第60案遵照辦理好那第60案主決議照案通過第61案遵照辦理"},{"start":15245.638,"end":15266.99,"text":"第61案主決議照案通過第62案 遵照辦理第62案主決議照案通過第63案 遵照辦理第63案主決議照案通過第64案 遵照辦理第64案主決議照案通過第65案 遵照辦理第65案主決議照案通過第66案 遵照辦理"},{"start":15267.27,"end":15292.161,"text":"第66案主決議照案通過第67案 遵照辦理第67案主決議照案通過第68案 遵照辦理第68案主決議照案通過第69案 遵照辦理第69案主決議照案通過第70案 遵照辦理第70案主決議照案通過第71案 遵照辦理第71案主決議照案通過第72案 遵照辦理"},{"start":15292.421,"end":15302.827,"text":"第七十二案主決議照案通過那因為呢剛剛有很多重新要新增主決議的所以我們休息三分鐘然後等一下來宣讀這個新增主決議的部分休息三分鐘"},{"start":15306.487,"end":15311.011,"text":"那等下再講話嗎 等下嘛就不用再講話了 念完就好靜靜思念 靜靜思念有什麼心情"},{"start":15335.751,"end":15335.871,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":15357.927,"end":15361.008,"text":"我跟他致敬我跟他致敬我跟他致敬我跟他致敬"},{"start":15379.955,"end":15386.399,"text":"那現在就是醫院都在發展所以我們剩餘都沒有繳付我們就留在醫院"},{"start":15409.915,"end":15411.116,"text":"那個會有那個還要看心願的"},{"start":15435.065,"end":15453.916,"text":"那是新加坡老区公共集团的一个集团那是新加坡老区公共集团的一个集团那是新加坡老区公共集团的一个集团那是新加坡老区公共集团的一个集团"},{"start":15456.357,"end":15456.437,"text":"我們會長那個"},{"start":15490.15,"end":15507.623,"text":"好那我們繼續開會齁那因為接下來有新增的主決議有六案我們先請議事人員宣讀第七十二之一案台北榮民總醫院預理分院一百一十三年預算業務順於四十四萬四千元為一百一十四年"},{"start":15508.872,"end":15536.995,"text":"預算業務短處576萬9千元其中業務成本與費用有113年成長3410萬3千元台北榮民總醫院育理分院業務成本與費用114年成長率1.45%遠高於業務收入成長率1.18%請退譜會議三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出業務績效改善書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人第72支二案"},{"start":15537.896,"end":15556.718,"text":"近年度部分榮民醫院有違反勞動法規而屢遭處分刑事請退府會確實督導各院就常見違規樣態注意改善以建構良好之醫院勞動環境亦可提升病人之就醫品質提案人委員羅美玲等人第七十二之三案"},{"start":15557.839,"end":15569.154,"text":"病人自主權利法於2019年1月6日施行預立醫療遺囑旨在保障民眾在失去意識時或決策能力時依據個人意願接受或拒絕醫療行為之權利請退服會"},{"start":15573.496,"end":15591.935,"text":"督促所屬榮運以病人最大利益考量結合跨領域專業團隊推動育立醫療照護諮商及育立醫療遺囑提升末期病人生活之品質於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員林楚英等人"},{"start":15592.575,"end":15614.022,"text":"第72支事案,台灣即將於2025年進入超高齡社會,請退府會因督促所屬醫院持續透過教育訓練增進高齡照護人員核心技能,提供以實證為基礎之優質醫療照護,並以3個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告。提案人為林楚英等人,"},{"start":15614.662,"end":15639.401,"text":"第七十二支五案建於台北榮民總醫院與台灣微軟於二零二五年三月簽署合作備忘錄計劃導入生成式AI技術開發醫療應用請國軍退出官兵輔導委員會對於AI醫療使用建置資料治理各支保護及倫理審查之具體規範於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":15640.642,"end":15662.743,"text":"體驗人委員林楚英等人第七十二之六案經查一百零九至一百一十三年八月抵職退府會所屬醫院違反勞基法、工會法、性別平等工作法等規定者及七件請國軍退除與官兵輔導委員會於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告體驗人委員王定宇等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":15664.073,"end":15677.581,"text":"好 那這幾案 第72-1案這個特不會 都沒問題 遵照辦理好 那我們第72-1主決議通過 72-2遵照辦理好 那72-2主決議招案通過 72-3遵照辦理好 72-3主決議招案通過 72-4遵照辦理72-4主決議招案通過 72-5遵照辦理好 72-5主決議招案通過 最後一個72-6"},{"start":15690.788,"end":15713.5,"text":"遵照辦理七十二之六主決議照案通過好那這個呢一一四年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算那關於這個國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會主管的非營業基金兩項作業基金都已經審查完略了那我會送到財政委員會會診後再提報院會那請問院會審議前有需要黨團協商嗎"},{"start":15715.301,"end":15731.728,"text":"應該不用 我們就不用黨團協商所以我們這邊做決定 我們不用黨團協商再來 院會決議時請推派一位委員做補充說明請推派好 那就是我了本日審查如有預算科目物質或金額的調整我們就授權議事人員處理 大家應該沒問題吧沒問題的話本日會議到此結束 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出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事論言先讀上次議事錄"},{"start":1833.755,"end":1854.351,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期交通委員會第四次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一四年三月二十七日星期四上午九十至中午十二時五十二分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員李坤哲等十五人立席委員黃國昌等十二人立席官員國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹等"},{"start":1854.791,"end":1881.465,"text":"主席許昭及委員致捷報告四項宣讀上市會議議事錄決定議事錄確定邀請國家通訊傳播委員會列席報告業務概況並備諮詢本日會議由國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹報告後藉由委員洪孟凱等20人提出諮詢均經代理主任委員陳崇樹及相關人員分別予以答覆決定一報告及詢問完畢二為有號等二人所提書面諮詢"},{"start":1882.369,"end":1911.728,"text":"均列入記錄並刊登公報三委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請國家通訊傳播委員會盡速以書面答覆散會宣讀完畢好那個議事錄等一下再請處理現在我來介紹今天列席的那個官員我們國家通訊傳播委員會的代理主委陳崇樹主委"},{"start":1913.595,"end":1922.178,"text":"主任秘書黃文哲主任秘書綜合處處長溫處長基礎處處長陳春木平台事業管理處副處長黃天陽電台與內容事務處林慧琳法律處處長蔡志魯"},{"start":1943.015,"end":1960.328,"text":"北區監理處處長蔡國棟數位部政務次長林怡靜次長資源管理司司長曾文芳法治處副處長吳怡倫數位產業級檢證機政嚴坤鴻"},{"start":1971.667,"end":2000.907,"text":"法務部我們政次黃士傑政次參事廖江憲副司長簡美惠這個我們檢察司的副司長內政部刑事警察局副局長邱少洲詐欺犯罪防治中心科長林耕宇科長好以上"},{"start":2002.574,"end":2023.82,"text":"以上這些官員介紹那現在是不是請我們啊代主委陳代主委針對今天的這些打醒跟各位委員所提案的個案啊也就本日進行"},{"start":2026.535,"end":2039.673,"text":"應經核准之電信管理設平器具及電信管理設平器具製造輸入及申報作業管理辦法電信管理業務"},{"start":2043.055,"end":2061.561,"text":"歸會及收賄標準第14條之條文等行政命令及電信管理法修正案的審查針對這些請我們現在NCC我們陳代主委來做說明那時間在15分鐘以內"},{"start":2067.327,"end":2076.178,"text":"主委還沒有報告以前我再來補充介紹我們本會召委先進行報告"},{"start":2088.052,"end":2106.188,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天應要列席貴委員會就電信管制設明器材製造輸入及申報作業管理辦法及電信業務規範收費標準及應經合整則電信管制設明器材條文提出本會說明進行指教一"},{"start":2107.469,"end":2136.292,"text":"關於修正陰莖核整電信管制設備器材部分首先是第一級電信管制設備器材的納管納管的主要項目有干擾箱、遮蔽器等第二部分是第二級電信管制設備器材新增海上倖存者電位裝置修正電信管制設備器材製造輸入及申報作業的管理辦法的重點第一個是第三條增訂第一級電信實驗第一級電信管制設備器材項目"},{"start":2138.032,"end":2158.183,"text":"第二個重點是第七條及第八條增訂第一級電信管制設備器材使用計畫申請程序及應付文件的規定第三個重點是第三條增訂第二級電信管制設備器材進口核准政治進口用途新增供外國傳播或外銷傳播使用第四個重點是"},{"start":2158.863,"end":2169.922,"text":"第三條增訂得憑審驗證明即可進口之器材種類簡化行政程序第十七條增訂救災人員用之專用代碼"},{"start":2171.257,"end":2197.535,"text":"第六是十八條修正應分別申請進口核准證之情勢第七第23條明定取得電台執照視同已完成申報第八第24條增訂業餘無線電台可憑審驗證明解除列管第九第25條增訂特殊用途器材免報請主管機關解除列管第十第26條簡化未經形式認證業餘無線電機之管理方式"},{"start":2201.377,"end":2218.859,"text":"第十一 第三十一條增訂主管機關得委託他機關辦理業務之授權規定那第三個執法規定電信管理業務規費收費標準十四條的修正他重點有四個第一個是用第二級電信管制設備機材輸入核准審查費"},{"start":2220.322,"end":2245.15,"text":"第二 第二級電信管制設明器材使用計畫審查費第三 電信管制設明器材進口核准暫期審查費這些都是為了反映行政成本結語 為回應最新民意本會業或財政部同意停徵自用第二級電信管制設明器材輸入核准審查費一年現在也已經啟動退費作業程序將陸續聯繫進口人確認相關資料後進出退費"},{"start":2249.511,"end":2277.783,"text":"本會議將針對這段期間各界所提保規意見進行研析規劃在一年內檢討相關法規並完成修正作業那今天的第二部分是關於電信管理法的部分委員所提的修正重點包括委員黃建豪等19人提案修正電管法第5條第8條及第79條修正條文的草案重點是第5條應辦理定義事業登記的情況"},{"start":2280.197,"end":2293.043,"text":"也增訂未辦理電信事業登記者視同電信事業以及利用行動寬頻專用電信網路連接公眾電信網路者為電信事業之登記第二點 第八條 增訂第五項"},{"start":2296.837,"end":2313.892,"text":"那第二大重點是臺灣民眾黨團提案修正電信管理法第五條及第八條之一的修正案重點有二第一第五條修正為提供電信服務者應向NCC辦理定義事業之登記第二新政第八條之一規定定義事業應進行確認客戶身份程序"},{"start":2314.873,"end":2332.839,"text":"第三個提案是委員眾嘉賓等21人提案修正電信管理法第5條第9條及第79條修正條文重點有二第一第5條應辦理電信事業登記的情況增加MVMO以及境外銷售事業所提供之語音及速遞公眾通訊服務"},{"start":2334.465,"end":2361.892,"text":"第二重點是第九條增訂第五項規定電信事業或銷售境外所提供的語音或數據等公共通信服務之經營者銷售用戶號碼應核對及登錄用戶資料第四個提案是台灣民眾黨團提案修正電信管理法第九條及第四十條規定第五個提案是委員陳俊宇等十九人提案修正電信管理法第七十五條修正規定加重這個罰還額度"},{"start":2364.434,"end":2372.202,"text":"那第二部分是NCC對委員所提案的修正的回應說明第一個配合打在修正的相關議題的部分"},{"start":2374.919,"end":2400.804,"text":"上述所有委員所提的案子相關提供電信服務的業者或經營MVMO轉售或使用智慧訓練號碼及物聯網號碼以外的用戶號碼ISP及應納管的部分這一部分利益良善但為配合打造而要求所有的電信服務都要代辦理登記可能會將管理或者治理的思維跟總意"},{"start":2402.565,"end":2421.056,"text":"網際網路的這一部分跟資訊服務兩個層面涵蓋在內會依託電信服務它僅僅涵蓋基礎網路層營運層的範圍實務上因為上南明確界定電信服務的範疇這個會大幅改變電信管理法的管制架構另外"},{"start":2422.754,"end":2443.425,"text":"像一般第五條我們目前現行第五條規定使用電信資源者有強制登記的義務但是資訊服務業者等像LINE或Instagram等如果沒有辦理登記後續的是否處罰會產生執行上的困擾那第二部分是關於這個"},{"start":2445.27,"end":2472.236,"text":"提議建議說應該要從事MVMO轉售服務的包括ISB以及是否納管這一部分本會的內部的討論的結論是採正面態度那如果MVMO要拉伸到母法來列管這邊我們也予以尊重但是我們就這個ISB的部分因為現行的業者大小規模"},{"start":2474.704,"end":2495.719,"text":"動態範圍非常大如果登記以後都以相同義務來要求恐怕會違反比例原則那我們希望說能夠在就營業規模營運型態風險管控能力對供應影響屏住等需要有個層級化的義務再者上述的定義事業應該落實KYC的義務這一部分在打造條例去年7月31號"},{"start":2498.999,"end":2510.85,"text":"施行公佈之後這些提案大部分是在這個打造條例施行前所提實務上我們已經在配合落實打造條例的不管是17條18條19條23條等都已經在落實所以這一塊已經有已經有以納管"},{"start":2516.215,"end":2534.172,"text":"另外我們一例電信管理法六四條授權規定定的電信事業用戶號碼使用管理規則也已經將KYC等等予以納管所以在六四KYC的部分目前法制工具上升完備是無需要修正電信管理法來增納KYC的義務"},{"start":2535.373,"end":2551.825,"text":"那另外加入DSRPG機制配合解析的議題實務上DSRPG機制僅能避免使用者接取惡意或不當的域名名稱但是無法避免使用者直接以IP Address來登錄來進階的部分"},{"start":2554.947,"end":2580.169,"text":"這種情況所以我們覺得說況且網際網路的接取義務它不涉及到網路內容的偵測與審查所以這部分我們覺得還有待討論的空間另外根據TEDaMIC的說明DSRP是志願參與的機制成員除了ISP也包括教育部的學術網路所以即便是沒有登記為定義事業也能夠加入"},{"start":2581.03,"end":2600.081,"text":"第三個是關於提案的內容的重點是包括增進網路流量紀錄部分這一塊也是在去年通保法修訂前所提但是去年7月31號通保法修正後這一部分已經在該法已經有一所規定那今天的法務部的報告也有對這方面有所呼應結語"},{"start":2602.122,"end":2626.06,"text":"本會尊重各委員提出的修法意見但電信管理法除了防制詐騙外 攸關產業發展 市場公平競爭與消費的權益等除了參考大院委員所提的草案是否增管服務類型管制正當性法律架構調整管制方式是否符合比例原則等我們認為需要通盤考量也要與外界通訊溝通以降低修法衝擊"},{"start":2627.361,"end":2655.245,"text":"本會感謝大院對於電信管理法修法議題的關切期待行政院提出修法草案後即時再請大院指教與支持 謝謝好 謝謝陳代主委那接下來我們就數位部林次長報到的請準備來準備一下那我來補充介紹我們本會委員我們洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2658.165,"end":2663.741,"text":"張祺凱委員好現在我們請我們數位部林次長來報告"},{"start":2674.11,"end":2690.965,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天的會議主要是審查NCC函請的兩個提案以及各位委員針對電信管理法條文修正草案等提出的五個提案本部受邀出席向大家簡要報告相關情況也請各位委員指導"},{"start":2692.026,"end":2711.643,"text":"首先為了讓政府發送的簡訊更容易辨識並防止詐騙分子冒充政府發送簡訊本部推出了111政府專屬短碼簡訊服務現在所有政府機構都可以使用111這個專屬號碼發送簡訊讓民眾一眼就能確認收到的簡訊是不是由政府所發送的"},{"start":2712.344,"end":2729.273,"text":"目前已經有394個單位使用111短碼簡訊服務並截至今年2月底已經有超過1105萬條簡訊透過這項服務發送出去了各位有緣的提案將第二類電信事業的相關業者納管強化客戶風險所謂的KYC機制"},{"start":2733.976,"end":2758.674,"text":"及新增調取網路流量紀錄的規定以打擊詐欺協助攔阻設兒少性侵不法網站主要涉及的主管機關是NCC的權責本部敬表尊重以上是本部的報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝謝謝我們數位部的林次長接下來請法務部的黃次長來報告"},{"start":2770.625,"end":2786.917,"text":"主席、各位委員還有所有的與會同仁大家早安大家好本日封邀列席貴委會全體委員會議審查相關的法案及委員會命令請代表法務部列席並提出報告如下"},{"start":2787.918,"end":2805.883,"text":"本部為落實打詐綱領嚴懲詐欺犯罪任由賦予執法機關運用科技偵查手段法律基礎是必要並須完備相關的法制片以精準打擊詐欺犯罪故好前經行政院同意你具打詐釋法經大院陸續"},{"start":2808.064,"end":2823.837,"text":"113年7月12日7月16日三讀通過詐欺犯罪危害防治條例通訊保障及監察法下層通保法以及刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分專章以及洗錢防治法的修正草案"},{"start":2825.413,"end":2849.07,"text":"其中有鑒於近來詐欺案件氾濫且資安攻擊事件或網路恐嚇信件平仁均為利用網路匿蹤這案件為了溯源追查上開案件犯嫌之真實身份新修正通過通保法已經增訂調取網路流用紀錄之法定程序並且也在通保法的第三條之一的第三項"},{"start":2849.85,"end":2872.617,"text":"明定好網路流量記錄之相關定義好那麼另外的關於網路流量記錄系統的設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢的作業程序調取之項目監督費額及其他相關事項之辦法依依照通保法第十四條之一第六項的授權由本部會同內政部並會長"},{"start":2874.717,"end":2902.471,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關訂定完成了相關的授權執法於113年的12月27日發布網路流量紀錄的管理辦法針對這個相關的系統的設置方式調取的紀錄項目及保存的時間電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者的協力義務以及調取網路這個流量紀錄的費用等等事項均以強加規範"},{"start":2903.872,"end":2924.081,"text":"是以這個草案第9條來增訂相關授權規定之必要性 建請大院參酌主管機關之意見來進行審議各草案其餘規範 電信事業登記及管理相關事項 試涉各該主管機關權責 本部競表尊重 以上報告 敬請各位指教 謝謝"},{"start":2933.703,"end":2948.823,"text":"好謝謝我們黃市長那因為現在在場有三位委員那我們的那個議事錄我們確定一下請問各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見我們的議事確定好謝謝"},{"start":2967.274,"end":2969.836,"text":"現在我們就來試試看現在我們就來試試看現在我們就來試試看"},{"start":2993.815,"end":2994.235,"text":"今天有幾個案還有那個"},{"start":3003.556,"end":3018.732,"text":"呃另外我們那個喜智捷我們召委齁我們召委來抱一下吹一下的齁剛才沒介紹好我們陳靜林陳委員齁再補充進好接下來"},{"start":3020.168,"end":3043.82,"text":"我們因為今天有好幾個案也就是現在列席的台灣民眾黨有提兩個案那現在我們首先請我們張祺凱委員來做提案說明針對電信管理法修正的提案黨代表及委員說明的要旨那現在首先請我們張祺凱委員來說明"},{"start":3049.11,"end":3053.839,"text":"陳進寧的來的一毛鐵案"},{"start":3060.266,"end":3080.922,"text":"我今天是代表我們主席林國成林委員來做提案說明這次台灣民眾黨提出的是修正第五條跟第八條之一重點在於說為了要加強二類電信的管理跟兼顧通信市場的公平競爭所以要修正"},{"start":3081.883,"end":3102.283,"text":"第五條跟第八條之一的這個草案要規定電信業者要跟政府登記而且要接受管理同時呢要加強電信服務業者這個客戶風險的這個管理的機制比較具體的條文修正條文在第五條我們明定"},{"start":3104.059,"end":3127.691,"text":"提供電信服務應該向主管機關辦理電信事業的登記違反前項規定者沒有向主管機關辦理電信事業的登記由中央主管機關除以新台幣100萬元以上1000萬以下的罰款而且要通知限期改正屆時沒有改正者要按次"},{"start":3130.069,"end":3147.389,"text":"處罰而且勒令中斷服務我們在法案裡面這樣一個明定另外在第8條第8條之一請條文大家可以參閱然後這個規定在最後有明定就是違反第一項第三項規定及第四項鎖定犯法者由中央機關"},{"start":3149.971,"end":3175.458,"text":"處電信業者新台幣100萬元以上600萬元以下的罰款而且通知限期是要改正的這一期沒有改正者得案次予以處罰那另外第二部分的修正重點是在增訂網路流量的記錄的定義跟制定保存網路流量的記錄的辦法跟授權的規定這個重點是因為"},{"start":3177.455,"end":3198.633,"text":"台灣民眾黨認為要同步修法 刻意電信事業跟設置公眾電信網路業者他有保存網路流量記錄的這個義務所以我們明確在這個第九條的條文提出一個修正案對網路流量的記錄做一個明確的定義另外呢"},{"start":3199.758,"end":3223.871,"text":"也明確的提到這一項的網路流量紀錄的保存期限跟他的方式還有他保存的這個資料的範圍還有收匯這個方式跟其他相關的事項由主管機關來定之另外在40條修正案裡面特別是要強調網路流量這個紀錄把它加上去我代表這個我們這個主席林國成做這樣一個提案說明 謝謝"},{"start":3225.575,"end":3232.847,"text":"好 謝謝我們張祺凱 張委員那大概提案的要旨都已經講得非常清楚"},{"start":3233.479,"end":3261.738,"text":"那另外特別跟主委說明一下因為我補充說明一下這個也就是40條修改這些網路流量的紀錄這個部分是提供你們參考那因為我們有幾個華就是打造的華都已經把它放進去所以這個我們也原則性這個是我們黃國昌委員他特別非常重視所以這個部分"},{"start":3262.378,"end":3289.148,"text":"也就是可以提供你們參考但是不以修正這個部分我們可以不以修正好所以這個我特別說明一下那至於就是第八條之一這個部分我們蠻在乎的因為現在我們整個打炸的法定修訂過程當中沒有提到這一塊那真正的問題現在所有的破口最嚴重的就是這個"},{"start":3290.473,"end":3311.678,"text":"所以提供給主委還有我們有關單位的代表提供這個參考所以以上這些提供給我們NCC我們陳代主委這裡參佐好不好好接下來就請我們提案人陳俊宇委員來做提案說明時間3分鐘拜託俊宇"},{"start":3331.264,"end":3338.916,"text":"主席我們在場陳主委還有各席的我們主管還有各位委員大家早"},{"start":3341.055,"end":3364.471,"text":"我們針對這個電信管理法第75條的部分來做一個提案說明那由於我們近年來這個詐騙案居高不下並且犯罪的手法一直在翻新造成國人相當嚴重的一個財產損失那我們根據警政署的這個打詐儀表板的這個數據顯示假投資詐騙還有網路購物的這個詐騙依然是我們詐騙手法"},{"start":3371.236,"end":3376.06,"text":"內最大宗的而有關這個電信詐騙的這種犯罪多為詐騙集團透過申辦人頭這個門號辦假帳號來聯繫受害者並且進行後續的相關詐欺的這個行為"},{"start":3389.133,"end":3410.607,"text":"那有鑑於這個詐欺的犯罪需要電信業者積極的協力共同來預防那參佐本法第37條所顯示設置使用電信資源的這個公眾網路者應該將這個申辦門號者之身份查核作業與審查納入營運的這個計畫當中業者在這個前端門號核發的這個作業"},{"start":3417.697,"end":3426.847,"text":"流程上有落實審核和管理的責任而在第75條原定50萬以上500萬以下的罰款恐有過輕之餘"},{"start":3435.709,"end":3452.329,"text":"嚇阻效果有限所以本席在第一會期便提出電信管理法第75條的修正希望能夠透過提高違規的成本以敦促業者來落實對於門號申辦者的這個身份進行查核"},{"start":3453.15,"end":3470.038,"text":"那對於條文的修正我所要強調的是電信業者必須要落實KYC的義務以賀止人頭門號被詐騙集團進行犯罪所用那從源頭來阻斷犯罪"},{"start":3470.858,"end":3492.37,"text":"進一步避免民眾的財產損失我相信這才能夠根絕詐騙集團利用我們電信業者的手法來做詐騙以上我請我們NCC相關部門應該要來重視看能不能來做一個適度的修正以上 謝謝"},{"start":3493.922,"end":3518.763,"text":"好謝謝我們陳俊宇等19位委員提出他這個電信華的75條的修正案所以拜託NCC及有關單位就這個針對這個提案特別去研議一下來那接下來就請我們鍾嘉斌委員來提案說明鍾嘉斌委員等21位修改的"},{"start":3519.764,"end":3525.291,"text":"第五條 第九條 七十九條以上的查案請宗嘉斌委員來做提案說明"},{"start":3526.484,"end":3553.06,"text":"謝謝主席戴維宣讀本席等21人的提案條次有鑒於通訊傳播業已經進入到中高度的匯流過去依照基線設備就是包括基礎跟管線的有無來進行分類管理比如說第一類第二類但是為了因應當前國際網際網路服務的形態原本依電信法許可的第二類的電信事業提供電信服務"},{"start":3553.96,"end":3581.034,"text":"現在都不用再申請合佩他只要是沒有申請合佩無線電頻率電信號碼的業者比如說他是經營虛擬行動網路服務轉售或使用智慧虛擬碼及物聯網號碼以外的用戶號碼使用他電信事業提供之無線電頻率等這種情況的業者那麼應該妥為的因應並且避免漏洞發生"},{"start":3581.954,"end":3608.724,"text":"那現在呢我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例已經增訂明定相關的機制和技術線措施比如說限制瀏覽移除流量管制以及停止解析和限制接取這種方式來遏止詐騙顯見要求網際網路接取服務提供者就所謂的IASP來執行限制接取已經成為我們堵詐"},{"start":3609.824,"end":3638.403,"text":"和網路治理的重要工具然而在我們兒童及少年性剝削防治條例以及性侵害犯罪防治法等法令也都明定IASP有配合執法機關執行限制接取的法律義務但是唯有目前電信管理法對於提供網路接取服務採自願登記造成目前我國現有的IASP的數量未明"},{"start":3639.324,"end":3656.977,"text":"主管機關無法通知所有ISAP執行限制接取導致民眾仍然可以接取不法網站的執法漏洞考量到主管機關可能因為新興電信服務業的發展 監理還有考慮到消費者權益等需要"},{"start":3657.637,"end":3670.789,"text":"需要將特定服務業者呢納入管理以利減和相關的服務項目和營業概況那也避免成為網路犯罪的漏洞因此呢本修正草案將從以往需"},{"start":3672.274,"end":3700.521,"text":"經主管機關特許或許可時的經營改為登記制之後其中虛擬行動網路服務業者確實使用政府所核發之無線電頻率及用戶號碼等資源應向主管機關辦理電信事業登記其次用戶號碼為電信資源其轉售使用用戶號碼之行為無明確法律管制措施來集合實名制認證"},{"start":3701.661,"end":3718.819,"text":"造成犯得以利用此漏洞來脫逃罪責那應其可與或合配用戶電號碼的電信事業提供電信服務應登記並予以管制那另外智慧虛擬碼及物聯網號碼無轉售情形純屬機械使用的那沒有這種前述風險就排除"},{"start":3725.285,"end":3749.911,"text":"那另外為了補足並強化現行電信管理法將用戶實名認證納入電信事業一般業務明定電信事業及經營者在銷售用戶號碼之實名認證的責任才能有效的降低網路犯罪重上我們提出了電信管理法第5條第9條及第79條的修正草案將相關業者納入管理以避免類似情況重複發生 以上好 謝謝我們"},{"start":3753.393,"end":3773.114,"text":"我們鍾嘉賓委員代表21個提案說明接下來我們黃建豪委員等19位那現在請我們黃建豪委員來做第5條第8條79條修正草案的說明現在請黃建豪委員"},{"start":3774.687,"end":3794.749,"text":"好 謝謝主席那本席今天提到的這個是電信法第5條第8條第79條條文修正的草案那主要也是要針對這個預防我們的詐騙集團掛鉤的問題那當然這個修法的源起也是源自108年我們從電信法轉到電信管理法之後許多的二類電信在新的"},{"start":3795.51,"end":3824.053,"text":"電信管理法裡面是沒有被管束的那本來在電信法裡面是針對二類電信其實是有管的那現在是沒有所以我們針對這部分在電信管理法第五條裡面有幾個比較強化的部分那第一個當然是新增對於尚未辦理電信事業登記進行轉軌的業者應該視為他同樣是電信事業直接納管那這樣的做法我們希望有利於主管機關對於該事業登記的時候重新檢視他目前提供的服務內容跟營業概況避免他成為電信詐騙的這個漏洞"},{"start":3825.214,"end":3851.32,"text":"那在針對虛擬情動網路服務業業者部分因為他已經也確實的使用了政府所核發的無線電頻率及用戶號碼等資源所以也應該要強化要求他向主管機關來辦理電信事業的登記那在用戶號碼為電用戶號碼本身就作為電信資源但他的轉售跟使用用戶的號碼的行為目前的這個電信管理法裡面沒有明確的法律管制措施用來稽查實際用戶的身份"},{"start":3851.9,"end":3872.017,"text":"所以可以看到很多的詐騙集團有些人士他是利用了這樣的疏漏逃脫他的不法行為所以我們也希望說透過這個第五條第一項第六款的修正讓他能夠提供登記之後一樣能夠有這個有管制的作為那其他使用其他電信事業提供的無線電頻率者因為他一樣可以獲得"},{"start":3873.418,"end":3897.47,"text":"無線電頻率或用戶號碼的電信事業提供相關類似的電信服務我們想這部分目前也沒有管制我們希望也把它列入納管裡面那再來有一個第五項第五條第一項的第八款裡面我們是授權主管機關可以是各項的犯罪行為不斷的日新月的情況下來考慮新增納管其他的電信服務項的業務"},{"start":3898.911,"end":3923.557,"text":"那在第8條的部分主要是希望說能夠強化防詐的作為將核對和登錄用戶的資料一樣一併的納入電信事業的一般義務裡面有效的降低詐欺的犯罪那也明定電信事業的銷售用戶號碼KYC就是Know Your Customer就是查核身份的這個責任我把它增訂在第8條第5項那在第79條的部分"},{"start":3925.31,"end":3951.461,"text":"是為了避免二類業者採取不登記電信事業的手段規避原先他們本來就應該負擔的責任的義務跟罰則所以將違反所謂剛剛提到第五條第一項規定未向主管機關辦理電信事業的這個業者要納管那也明定電信事業沒有落實KYC沒有落實這個身份查核的責任我把它定在79條第一項第25款第26款以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":3956.396,"end":3971.022,"text":"謝謝我們黃建豪委員的提案說明那現在我們要進行行打先告以下事項行打時間出席委員6加2分鐘"},{"start":3972.122,"end":3988.412,"text":"列席委員4加1分鐘委員花言登記到10點30分截止那各委員如果有臨時提案請以10點前提出以便議事人員的會診"},{"start":3989.853,"end":4019.133,"text":"那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘那另外中午休息的時間因為牽涉到我們各委員的醒打時間所以在這裡就比較反衝的特別跟大家宣布也就是我們下午是否要體檢那這個是打醒時間而來做決定所以特別跟各位來做先告"},{"start":4019.873,"end":4040.678,"text":"那另外現在我們就請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員來巡打請洪孟楷委員好主席謝謝麻煩請陳代理主委陳代主委"},{"start":4046.004,"end":4075.046,"text":"委員長好 代理主委早我想我們先請教一下因為緬甸在上禮拜發生大地震那我們有看到說有電視台在報導時候誤用網路的AI生成影像那NCC也發出三點聲明應該要落實事實查核那這電視台有做更正啟示但這件事情我們凸顯幾個部分AI現在是大家使用越來越頻繁尤其是生成影像也越來越方便對吧"},{"start":4075.706,"end":4089.864,"text":"我看到我們NCC之前在113年還有做一個調查也特別把AI使用給放進去那就新聞台的這個案例來講未來新聞台到底能不能用AI生成影像來播放新聞"},{"start":4092.098,"end":4120.39,"text":"根本報告AI的使用部分像有些電視台一定用它來播報氣象公視也有相關的一些報導但是那個是它所謂的虛擬主播嘛那我現在講的是像這一個案件裡面NCC發出三點聲明就說有新聞台用AI生成影像去播放地震那這一個未來NCC的標準是什麼可以允許新聞台在播放新聞的時候用AI生成影像嗎"},{"start":4122.567,"end":4145.26,"text":"我們是回歸到到他們的編輯自主部分要他們follow他們自己的自律規範他們內部的內控管理那這部分我們有提醒他關於這個你的標準在哪邊主委這個我覺得是很正面要大家看待的因為有可能這樣的事情會越來越多那NCC的標準到底在哪裡第一"},{"start":4145.799,"end":4171.788,"text":"完全不能用第二可以用沒有就是反正大家自主但第三用但是要加警語譬如說要告訴很清楚明白告訴大家這不是事實因為主委你應該有看過現在AI生成影像可以以假亂真非常真實甚至可以用我們之前講Deep City有可以用你的人臉然後直接變成這種"},{"start":4173.729,"end":4184.505,"text":"影像那如果說未來有新聞台他想要播放什麼樣的一個新聞他直接模擬AI用一個名人的畫面行不行"},{"start":4185.472,"end":4214.23,"text":"我們要求他這裡頭必須要追求這個事實查證的部分如果需要標示的話需要標示的部分都需要標示那可以允許之後用AI生成譬如說今天立法院的一個狀況他沒有拍到那個畫面但他可以生成我的臉你的臉然後我們來對話是一樣可是可以生成你的臉我的臉來還原那個場景嗎他要揭示他要揭露說他這個影像是只要揭露就可以"},{"start":4215.575,"end":4227.465,"text":"而且還要事實查證也要事實查證那事實查證誰來查證如果說他是一個沒有辦法去好我另外一個角度法院"},{"start":4228.53,"end":4252.174,"text":"以前因為法院裡面不能設以聽取判決或是說審理期間所以我們看到很多新聞台他是用素描對不對他是請人進去素描然後畫那個圖片出來那未來能不能直接用AI生成影像把當事人把法官他一樣啊他說他有進去看啊那用AI生成影像把那個畫面以前是用素描那我現在直接變成是AI影像"},{"start":4253.513,"end":4268.972,"text":"基本上我們是要求他要有標示要有自立那這一塊部分他們工協會衛廣工會他們也有採訪的一些規範主委身為主管機關我們難道不需要防範衛然嗎我覺得這個是大家都可以想一想喔"},{"start":4269.733,"end":4293.69,"text":"AI生成影像已經那麼普及了未來只會多不會少如果我們NCC主管機關都沒有一個明確的態度的話我覺得這樣子反而沒有標準那你為什麼會在這一次緬甸大地震新聞台用AI生成影像然後NCC馬上有聲明但是也沒有處罰嘛看起來這個新聞台要不要被處罰"},{"start":4294.887,"end":4310.372,"text":"根本報告我們其實現在有待未來的AI運用我們正在找那個外面的委員會都是製作會來製作AI人工智慧應用的指引都是廣電業者的AI人工智慧應用指引正在討論正在行程當中"},{"start":4311.431,"end":4341.011,"text":"主委本席要就是說你們現在應該要著手亡羊補老猶未完矣但你不能現在連羊跑了你都還在那邊還在那邊講自主還在什麼什麼時候你們可以提出應該新聞台一體適用標準我沒有針對哪一家新聞台因為這可能是未來都會面臨的但是我們NCC要有態度要告訴大家那該處罰要處罰先講出界線讓新聞台知道而不是什麼都推給說自主自律"},{"start":4342.111,"end":4368.463,"text":"各位什麼時候可以做到這塊我們那個委員會執行出來之後我們會找業者來討論然後看看是不是一個公版的治理規範請他們日後來落實是什麼時候時間點我們這個執行應該是今年的案子嘛應該快的話第三季應該第三季快的話那就下半年現在才4月2號"},{"start":4371.414,"end":4386.148,"text":"我們回去再請我們的湊頭單位再請大家加緊腳步看看有沒有可能更提早一點主委本期期待是宜快不宜慢因為這是一個標準來再來第二部分下半年喔你講的喔"},{"start":4388.089,"end":4403.037,"text":"我們需要能力越快越好了 那目前的schedule是這樣子 標準出來讓大家有規則可循再來第二個部分我想今天我們審查有一個很重要的一個方向就是也是所謂的750元之亂現在因為NCC這邊已經有講到是說我們"},{"start":4411.534,"end":4431.716,"text":"這個公眾平台也已經有通過要求重新討論收費標準那以謙卑的態度面對各界的意見思考使用者收費的合理性跟執行的妥善性所以我們現在進行的方向為何合理跟妥善你會以哪個方向來做"},{"start":4433.12,"end":4445.235,"text":"我們兩個都會來進行那現在也是正在程序進行當中就是我們在跟財政部申請停政之後就已經持續進行業務宣導以及內部的這個法規是 所以現在沒有堅持750元的統一標準"},{"start":4447.725,"end":4477.228,"text":"就是我們在研議過程在檢討過程裡頭這個應該是朝向這個最大主流名義目前最大主流名義是免徵嘛免徵 這個應該是我們主要的考量方向所以本席剛剛跟我們召委我們有一個提案就今天的這個審查我想前面的相關條文我們沒有意見因為尊重NCC委員NCC提出來的一個行政的作業但是對於後面付表的收費我們是予以不予通過我想這也是主委你剛剛講的一個方向嘛對不對"},{"start":4479.589,"end":4501.205,"text":"報言這塊我們是建議免予通過然後做成要求我們再盡快的完成法規修正是當然啊就是要你們趕快再補後續的作業嘛來那免徵之後所以未來現在有眾說紛紜的說法有人講說是免徵一年有人講說是伺機而動等風頭過後之後再提出來"},{"start":4502.472,"end":4522.337,"text":"各位跟委員報告因為我們是停政一年一年期間我們是期許我們能夠完成法規所謂標準的修正那如果說標準沒辦法如期修正完成我們會有再跟財政部再申請繼續展現停政的可能當初要收這個750元的時候有沒有考慮過到底影響會多廣多大"},{"start":4523.61,"end":4539.421,"text":"當初的標準的作業程序對外徵詢意見我們都有做都有落實那你有評估譬如說一年可能因為這樣的一個標準可以收多少錢如果一年兩萬多件每一件750多件都呈上去就是這種數據"},{"start":4545.524,"end":4556.896,"text":"現在數量又在增加所以這個數目字會再高一點本時看到你們去年的預算書啦稅率多增加了在審查費用多增加了一千萬"},{"start":4558.53,"end":4575.133,"text":"所以換言之其實你們自己也知道是說這個只要收費上去之後比去年就是至少會多一千萬以上的稅率嘛那你之前有講說如果說是四萬台一年的話那750元就更多嘛等於是兩千多三千萬嘛"},{"start":4575.834,"end":4600.142,"text":"對不對是那但重點在於是公平合理的收費標準以及不要讓大家覺得是說政府在搶錢這才是我們民意代表以及為什麼說一天裡面政府公共政策平台可以五千人達標我想這是民意的反彈請代理主委一定要聽到民意的真實性可以嗎可以我們現在就是朝這個方向在檢討"},{"start":4601.002,"end":4620.554,"text":"最後今天有幾個委員都有討論到這個法案的一個修正本席也很重視打炸的必要性以及電信管理法我看你們給大家的一個這個修法建議也沒有反對你裡面也講到很多是說充分溝通降低修法的衝擊但是"},{"start":4621.474,"end":4648.269,"text":"尊重各委員提出來的修法意見嘛是不是那其中你有提到但是希望電信管理法修法議題能夠跟行政院提出的修法草案一起來做討論那我想請教現在行政院電信管理法修法草案進度在哪裡目前還在我們會內的還在NCC還在NCC因為我們現在也還沒有送行政院"},{"start":4650.152,"end":4669.738,"text":"那院版也就還沒有辦法出來那什麼時候可以出來我們期待盡快你這不就是拖延戰術嗎 以拖待變不是 因為我們現在委員會沒辦法組成代理主委很高興你又講到這個了代理主委上個禮拜很多委員都關心嘛"},{"start":4670.748,"end":4692.973,"text":"那到現在一個禮拜過去了有沒有再請示一下了解一下我看行政院上禮拜的發言他不敢用正式回應他講政院人士表示持續徵詢中那有沒有去了解上個禮拜你在這邊很無奈的也講說上級機關這個是行政院長的權責要提出委員名單那您知道"},{"start":4694.584,"end":4719.057,"text":"我在講一個數字給您了解我在講一個真實狀況可以了解您知道上一任陳建仁院長所提出來的四位委員名單什麼時候復委的嗎應該是去年第二季左右去年7月16號在第一會期的最後一天我們處理所有議案的時候那一天就正式復委"},{"start":4721.147,"end":4748.795,"text":"一個會期就正式復委那請教 您知道第二會期交通委員會是做NCC委員的審理嗎第二會期開了十幾次交通委員會有藍的召委 有綠的召委你知道有排過幾次NCC委員的審查嗎權責不在我這邊你不知道 權責當然不在你這邊啊 你是代理主委啊這個是立法院的權責啊 但我只是請教您知不知道"},{"start":4750.191,"end":4764.44,"text":"第二會期十幾次交通委員會開會有藍的招委有綠的招委NCC委員名單已經在7月16就覆為了但第二會期有排過幾次NCC委員審查應該是沒有零次"},{"start":4766.758,"end":4789.43,"text":"所以現在在講嘛誰的責任民進黨的召委也沒有想要排NCC委員審查那直到了11月28號因為我們NCC組織法在三讀通過變成行政院要重新提人11月28號到今年現在是4月2號四個月過去了行政院長提的新的人選在哪裡沒有那所以"},{"start":4794.994,"end":4810.021,"text":"NCC現在在講跟我們講行政院提出修法草案電信管理法修法我們在拜託大院指教跟支持我也很想支持啊但是你們行政院的版本在哪裡沒有NCC"},{"start":4814.264,"end":4840.017,"text":"幕僚作業中幕僚很辛苦啊公務人員很辛苦啊那沒有辦法開會因為現在委員沒有辦法補齊沒有辦法補齊誰的責任行政院長不提人四個月過去了到現在還是只聞樓梯響沒有任何委員名單出爐我甚至看到啊代理主委有媒體講說有可能要等到今年行政院現在最期待的罷免"},{"start":4841.916,"end":4867.334,"text":"結束告一段落才要再提人還要再拖半年啊您覺得這樣子對NCC的業務會不會造成衝擊這部分我沒有立場表達意見你什麼沒有立場表達意見你是代理主委你現在連講說對NCC的業務有沒有衝擊你都不敢講了衝擊部分當然是有當然是有嘛主委"},{"start":4871.536,"end":4886.806,"text":"就是論事專業我一定會質詢你你就就專業回答因為NCC是什麼獨立超然專業自主的機關不受任何執政者所影響這是你應該有的風骨謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝孟愷謝謝我們洪孟愷委員的質詢好 現在"},{"start":4904.787,"end":4926.495,"text":"好 感謝現在第二位林國成委員質詢主席請陳代理主委好 請陳代理主委來 黃竹密你也上來好了來 黃竹密教委好好"},{"start":4929.67,"end":4954.064,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位我們官員其實陳代主委因為我跟黃竹密跟你確確實實都時常有在溝通你們的問題所在但是我不希望我不希望我們在那邊跟他們參與政治因為"},{"start":4955.478,"end":4963.046,"text":"我們這個單位是獨立單位兼有專業的單位所以"},{"start":4964.534,"end":4988.863,"text":"不要跟政治有關 這點我蠻在乎的你如果不是獨立單位 或者專業性質的單位 我不會要求他們要有政治聯想 他們有政治意圖 或者政治作法 我沒有意見但是我們NCC 我千拜託萬拜託陳代主委 你還是要有擔當"},{"start":4990.582,"end":4998.776,"text":"該你的業務 該做的就做不要穿插有政治性的東西這點我想我上次也跟你提醒過嘛"},{"start":4999.724,"end":5025.918,"text":"因為我說實在我在當這個召委能做的我一定做能協調的我會幫你們協調讓你們的業務可以啊講快一點不妨害的情況之下不影響老百姓以及不影響你們的尊嚴監督的立場基本上我都會支持的我都會支持所以特別跟主委所以我不希望"},{"start":5026.678,"end":5053.081,"text":"你們有正製兩制的把所有的意志放下去這點我極度反對好 那個陳代主委還有黃祖密因為花園人是你但是我就感覺到很奇怪還是老話一句我上個禮拜也已經請教拜託陳代主委也就是我們王政加NCC的委員"},{"start":5054.582,"end":5081.423,"text":"他可以隨隨便便指控立法院不審你們現在跟他溝通的怎麼樣你們認為這是言論自由我絕對不會接受言論自由可以批評立法院啊今天你們NCC是一個獨立單位如果我們事實的東西我沒話講可是不是事實的東西他公然招搖公然招搖這種東西好嗎"},{"start":5084.636,"end":5109.592,"text":"主委我說實在你現在是代主委沒錯他這個委員也是立法院通過的那怎麼會船過水無痕呢今天最起碼立法院都已經任命他為NCC委員他怎麼可以去指責這些這是你授意或者他個人的意思來主委你說明"},{"start":5111.035,"end":5123.841,"text":"跟委員回報應該是他個人的言論上禮拜召委有指示我們回去大概查一些相關辦法大概是這樣子依據全區部所訂的公務員發表職務言論同意辦法"},{"start":5126.542,"end":5142.221,"text":"它有兩項第一個前提是植物言論的定義是它必須要代表機關或者使用機關的職稱那它在社交媒體的部分它並沒有這些東西所以它不代表是植物言論的發表"},{"start":5144.443,"end":5172.113,"text":"那第二個是他是政務人員他發表言論不需要機關同意這是那個辦法裡頭的規定那另外職務言論的定義在這個權益部所定的辦法裡頭是說所謂的職務言論是說你是跟這個機關的業務執掌有關那他這一部分他上次在社交媒體所講的是委員提名這一塊因為委員提名這一塊的執掌"},{"start":5179.121,"end":5190.965,"text":"陳代主委你不要再講那些規定了他很明顯他現在做NCC的委員你不要忘了這NCC委員相當於部長級耶"},{"start":5192.926,"end":5221.335,"text":"經過立法院裡面通過的他怎麼講話他可以關在他家裡面怎麼罵立法院我沒有意見公開上網就是公開的東西我管你幹什麼你現在除了他辭掉的隔天他去表示意見我沒有意見可是你現在還是在職還是待職你不要去拐彎抹角那個人事總處的有關公務人員之規定"},{"start":5222.415,"end":5249.122,"text":"這你不要說這個啦來日本他就是要探討問題對就對不對就不對我到現在認為NCC這個王振嘉委員他不可以這樣去指責因為跟事實有出入所以就變成公然的造謠那當然我也不會去指責現在有些部會的部長也是公然造謠你不要所以我一直在講獨立單位"},{"start":5252.29,"end":5280.52,"text":"專業單位千萬千萬不要有政治的連結我說實在的其他那些單位他是政府官他要怎麼做怎麼可以公然去造謠說我們不審這一點我很在意因為我都願意排啊我是在野黨啊我願意排啊你們為什麼都不表示意見我就感覺到很奇怪所以不要再跟我講這些今天我第二次去問"},{"start":5281.926,"end":5309.514,"text":"你如果沒有妥善一個解決跟說明我第三次我還是會問問到什麼問到我這個召委卸任不然的話他就辭掉他辭掉我就不會問了所以主委這個我特別再次跟你叮嚀再次跟你叮嚀沒有一個說法跟這個你不要拿那個法令來跟我講很明顯他現在是現任NCC委員"},{"start":5310.988,"end":5326.705,"text":"相當於正物質請他不要忘了他要去拍馬屁是他家的事拍馬屁不能公然造謠以及汙衛立法院這是我的言者注意我再第二次已經跟你們講我希望"},{"start":5328.267,"end":5350.024,"text":"這個祖密你也要協助主委一下我跟你講你什麼時候跟我承認我什麼時候才不會問不然我會繼續問下去這個我特別跟主委你講好來接下來我們打詐當然有關啦打詐當然跟數位部啊跟警政署等等都有關但是"},{"start":5351.129,"end":5375.441,"text":"我們二類的電信也就是我提案這些東西也是二類確確實實現在是打詐的破口打詐不分黨派大家都支持你們從你們的預算從你們的徵購預算我坦白跟你講這個打詐還是我們黨團黃總召帶著我們去刑事警察局"},{"start":5376.421,"end":5399.563,"text":"還有去調查局等等這些把基層的聲音他們儀器的問題法規的問題等等所以一次把它修但是我們修了以後總是難免有遺之之憾也就是二類電信不納管我坦白跟你講這非常大的破口所以"},{"start":5400.683,"end":5427.314,"text":"我們才提出這個二類電信納管這個部分所以主委要拜託這個要把它正視為一個非常嚴重破口的要納入管理當然會感覺到很麻煩但是這些對打炸是有幫助的所以我要拜託我要拜託我們主委這個要把它正視這是非常重要的一個破口好那個"},{"start":5428.851,"end":5449.224,"text":"好另外我特別要提醒我們NCC不要到現在還是我們本縣有不同黨派的立委在那邊造謠說我們的預算你們的業務費被刪了只剩下一塊錢來 主委到底有沒有刪只剩下一塊錢有沒有嘛"},{"start":5450.695,"end":5476.957,"text":"包招委 這個是在當時的記者會是當時我們是提醒說這個案子如果通過的話 會有這些後果沒有啦 你不要跟我講這個啦 主委有沒有三一塊錢嘛結果沒有嘛 對不對提案的人都已經撤掉嘛 是不是所以 我坦白跟你講 現在還有一個政務官 還有部長"},{"start":5478.354,"end":5490.423,"text":"還有立法委員還在造謠什麼3到1塊錢你們真的喜歡3到1塊錢嗎他的表意可能是凸顯說不要啦 主委你不要幫他們講話沒有就沒有 有就有"},{"start":5491.564,"end":5519.622,"text":"你們還剩下 還剩下四千多萬怎麼會只剩下一塊錢所以 這個不攻自破啦所以 主委 我才不跟你講這跟你 這不是你說的但是跟你有關當然我們就執行你啊所以這個部分好 接下來主委來 我們現在很窮什麼時候要送解凍案上來我願意排我用我的時間來排什麼時候要送上來"},{"start":5521.22,"end":5542.806,"text":"我們要盡快 我們內部會加緊作業我希望 我都公開的我是在野黨的召委 我都願意排了請問一下 你們還要研議什麼東西所以主委 別這樣一天到晚就要哭窮人家是很同情 不會啦"},{"start":5543.886,"end":5571.921,"text":"解凍案我願意排趕快送上來不要耽擱業務不要耽擱你們的業務所以我不希望在這個部分在這個部分主委連你都有政治性的這些業務推展這是不好的所以最後我還是真的要呼籲主委呼籲主委就是不要有政治就是用你的專業去把NCC做好至於委員什麼時候"},{"start":5573.622,"end":5598.369,"text":"當然這個是行政院長的權利啦但是你是單位現在代理負責人你還是有下請善打之責任啊你要讓行政院長知道你們很需求這些委員趕快補齊啊好不好所以這個部分你們那個完委員的事要盡快"},{"start":5599.693,"end":5605.455,"text":"你要給我答案 為什麼他會做這個事 好不好好 以上好 謝謝現在我們就請我們陳雪生委員他來執行"},{"start":5628.237,"end":5633.522,"text":"好,謝謝主席,謝謝趙偉是不是請陳主任委員主委我接續剛才林國正委員的發言黃正佳是你們貴會的委員嗎?是他可以隨便在外面發言嗎?"},{"start":5654.144,"end":5683.14,"text":"他也有他私領域的發言的自由是,他個人的身份嘛,是不是?是那你也可以用個人的身份到外面發言嗎?都不代表NCC啦你們所有的同仁都可以針對個人的意見來發言嗎?我也可以針對個人的意見發言嗎?可以這樣嗎?你們是個團體耶,是個機關耶要有所節制吧嚴厲的譴責他,我告訴你自己什麼身份啊"},{"start":5684.278,"end":5712.896,"text":"那你甩鍋給立法院立法院有時候不跟你審查你們所有行政院送來的委員NC委員的名單我們要到單全收嗎什麼叫審查嘛那就不要審查了嘛是不是怎麼監察委員怎麼考試委員不要審查還行使什麼同意權啊你送來幾個我們到單全收嘛是這樣嗎我想王正佳委員應該有點學問嘛是不是也念過一些書吧不然怎麼可能提名他做委員"},{"start":5715.087,"end":5741.824,"text":"這個分際應該很清楚嘛你怎麼可以講說個人的行為發言可以這樣嗎北一女中歐老師也是以個人的行為發言啊為什麼電視上每天在報他你們媒體有沒有報王振嘉委員多報啊每天報啊檢討吧怎麼可以這樣呢你這樣回答我們召委你可以這樣回答嗎個人的身份"},{"start":5742.998,"end":5771.175,"text":"我請問將來你們還有個人的身分要發言了嗎你關在廁所裡面你關在家裡面去講嘛誰管你啊是不是你是公眾媒體的人物欸你還管這個媒體的你這個單位還監督媒體的單位你怎麼可以這樣講你在委員的名單趕快送來嘛剛才也有委員問到你們現在錢夠了嗎還是不夠好那你現在為什麼不解凍"},{"start":5772.655,"end":5798.901,"text":"我們加緊作業加緊作業 錢夠嘛不是 錢還是不夠 如果扣除租金的話大概如果我們租金是在協商延後支付要不然如果是要付給他把扣留下來大概4月份就斷催了行政院有沒有叫你們不要解凍 有沒有沒有沒有我個人是沒有收到這個那有一位部長回答我們委員質詢的時候"},{"start":5801.069,"end":5828.516,"text":"他說你們立法院要解凍我們哪一個項目請你把那個項目送來我們要送去給他他才來公函有這樣的怪事欸那你到處全省各地去先講說我們立法院不給你解凍不給你錢用那你不給你錢用你錢不夠你來申請解凍啊你解凍後要你解凍後什麼時候送來我請問我們盡快應該是盡快是多久"},{"start":5832.214,"end":5855.581,"text":"應該是最近的時間內應該可以送出今天本席在這邊質詢你是你應該今天回去吧,明天後天就送來了吧還儘快,那可見你有壓力嘛你有上級的壓力嗎我告訴你啦你六月份送來,我們解凍案解凍你一半啦是不是這樣"},{"start":5857.301,"end":5885.351,"text":"因為你已經過了半年了嘛,你日子過得好好的,還是有飯吃沒有餓死啊是不是,我們擔心你餓死,所以你撿的話趕快送來啊謝謝委員盡快是多久?你回答我應該是,因為相關還有主計的那邊作業啦什麼作業?主計,因為解凍室跟倉庫是我們的會計主任有沒有來?沒有,沒有今天沒有來我是搞主計的啊"},{"start":5886.414,"end":5912.639,"text":"我是搞主計的啊你了解沒有我在主計處待過啊你這騙誰啊市長也好 機關首長也好 下令的話馬上解凍案弄出來我告訴你今天晚上日夜加班 明天早上就出來了啦你有壓力嘛 你坦白承認有沒有壓力你申請解凍有沒有壓力"},{"start":5914.079,"end":5928.355,"text":"我是沒有收到這方面行政院叫不讓你們解凍嘛,你懂了沒有不讓你們解凍好造謠嘛,各部位錢都不夠嘛,連廁所衛生紙都沒有嘛是不是這樣不要這樣騙人家啦,不好啦盡快什麼時候"},{"start":5933.623,"end":5959.155,"text":"應該是這一兩個禮拜有機會好 跟你兩個禮拜有機會喔 機會在你手上不是在我的手上還有機會不是我們主席體系那邊我還要去確認一下什麼主席 主席來了沒有 明天請他到我辦公室來我來好好質問他 他有什麼困難主席一定講說 主委叫我不要送 一定是這樣講的"},{"start":5960.543,"end":5986.862,"text":"主委叫我不要送叫我不要加班,我想加班我這裡預算啦,各單位來申請錢我已經發不出去了主委叫我不要送,一定是這樣可以這樣搞嗎?不可以你不借題嘛,搞大罷免嘛你騙誰啊?騙鬼啊?王振嘉委員,我嚴厲的譴責他"},{"start":5989.315,"end":6016.406,"text":"我希望你們NEC的委員,位高權重,部長級的不要隨便對外面亂放話立法院沒有虧待你們,你行政院趕快把委員的名單送來我們審查我們到底要知道他是誰啊像這一種委員,黃宗嘉這種委員你說他偏藍還偏綠還是中綠,還超然獨立,他絕對不獨立我告訴你"},{"start":6017.899,"end":6041.971,"text":"這個委員絕對不獨立你將來叫他再送來好了如果以後有他的名單我告訴你,本人第一個表示反對我告訴你今天是審查國家通訊傳播委員會電信管理業務規章收費的標準等條文第二個是審查電信管理法第五條、第八條還有七十九條修正條文的草案"},{"start":6045.628,"end":6062.106,"text":"NCC發言人叫什麼黃文哲先生嘛有開了例行的記者會現前的法律是確定將收費750塊嘛是不是但回應民意咧"},{"start":6063.427,"end":6086.846,"text":"回憶民意啊,因為民意有反彈了嘛所以暫緩進行750塊收費儀式問題是你前面已經收了一部分啊我沒有退費你收的部分是完全全部退費還是什麼?全退全退啊?是那你們講說未來的價格只會低不會高啊?是不是?我們會朝主流民意方向來檢討不過你們強調說"},{"start":6093.223,"end":6110.007,"text":"收費的目的是為了要防堵代購業者大量的貸貨嘛是不是並沒有要針對一般自用的民眾進行收費但因為涉及到法律的問題如果不修改法令會請業務處召集實務界的專家學者"},{"start":6116.897,"end":6143.364,"text":"如果要收費的話要透過委員會來討論嘛是不是這樣對就是要修改收費管理辦法必須要好我有幾個建議啦請妥適的研議收費標準跟對象不要增加老闆爺的負擔好不好是好沒問題第二個是盡速完成今年度已經徵收民眾的退費措施好不好你再趕快做好不好好沒問題我們在進行中第三個是針對僅具備藍芽功能的設備"},{"start":6145.182,"end":6168.821,"text":"你要不要收費來進行檢討都一併納入藍芽屬於低功率,屬於自然的範圍內因為無人機這些射頻怎麼都會干擾嘛對不對是都會做干擾,這個沒問題吧我們都會,沒問題我們會納入一併考量好那麼另外台馬第二條第三條的海嵐已經修復完成了"},{"start":6169.986,"end":6198.227,"text":"那麼雖然我上次質詢,因為中華電信出的錢嘛,跟速發部跟你們NCC是沒有關係的不過將來這已經是一個重要的基礎設施了所以速發部持續,我希望它能夠補助個1.5億或是2億好不好,如果有預算的話長遠福島速發部應該會審做另外那個第四條海岸現在什麼時候要完成"},{"start":6198.635,"end":6225.752,"text":"預計明年六月明年六月?你們進度掌握了沒有?我們持續都有跟中華電信在聯繫,目前看起來應該是進度掌握當中目前進度可以?可以另外今天中華電信沒有派人來嗎?沒有列席?沒有沒有你告訴中華電信,我們在地的用人很重要你看最近他招考一批人,我不曉得中華電信會不會來了,不過請你轉告"},{"start":6229.264,"end":6254.012,"text":"我們那裡缺一個人,他就招考一個招考一個,這個人在哪裡?在舉光好了,比如在舉光很偏遠的一個島錄取了,他不來不來,然後重新再來招攬人員那一考試又是兩三個月、三四個月那我們沒有人,因為那種小地方可能只有一個同仁或者兩個同仁"},{"start":6254.943,"end":6275.402,"text":"那你的同仁沒有補的話,那要從馬祖這邊公司這邊派人去支援嘛,去支援的話相對影響到這邊的業務那我說招考的時候,我希望因為什麼?因為台灣的青年鄉親去考考了以後覺得太遠,他不想去啊"},{"start":6276.089,"end":6283.626,"text":"那馬祖仁那就不會啦所以我希望就是說中華電信在地化的部分已經做得很好了"},{"start":6286.448,"end":6314.866,"text":"那我希望呢,長此以往,希望繼續我們在地的青年優先能夠錄取好,我們一定轉達但是你不要錄取一個啊你起碼來個備取,備取弄個兩三個嘛你備取弄個兩三個的話,第一個不來的話,第二個可以補啊你就不用再考了嘛你一直考一直考是不是,人員一直沒辦法到期好不好,這一點很重要不用理我們一定轉達主委我憑良心講齁,你們預算被刪了一半"},{"start":6315.868,"end":6343.747,"text":"你們自己要檢討,你們打仗是不是打得非常的好那麼多同仁在這邊我對NCC非常友善的在交通委員會裡面我對NCC是最友善的那主委你也到我那邊去過啦我也曉得你的意思我也很想幫你的忙我不只在黨團裡面幫你忙,我也希望跟民眾黨這邊、國城召委這邊,我也跟他們溝通所以你解凍案我們很善意的"},{"start":6344.847,"end":6373.558,"text":"你錢不夠用趕快送來嘛你不是對外去放話啊你人不夠你趕快把名單送來嘛你錢不夠趕快把解凍案送來嘛我們如果不同意你解凍,那是我們的問題嘛你怎麼可以把解凍當作刪除勒好不好我想你這解凍案盡快送來好不好,希望你兩個禮拜之內送來因為你不要把責任推給主計人員"},{"start":6374.491,"end":6394.843,"text":"我自己本身是主計人員,我現在退休還可以領主計人員的退休分我還可以領,我服務公職40年40年我名義代表、縣長、立法委員這些除外,我自己本身有我有這個證照,有會計審計的證照的人所以你這一部分"},{"start":6396.189,"end":6422.635,"text":"我希望這個主委還是加油了好不好好謝謝謝謝好謝謝我們陳雪生委員那現在請林郡縣委員執行好感謝主席本席邀請我們NCC代主委好陳代主委"},{"start":6429.13,"end":6442.797,"text":"委員長主委長因為剛剛在講預算的問題喔主委你要講清楚啦你延期金沒有辦法運作不是凍結啦是刪除的問題啦對不對對 刪了你的業務費你的單位業務費7517萬你被刪除多少4000多萬嘛刪掉將近55%對不對你剩下3354萬啦"},{"start":6455.97,"end":6485.491,"text":"你的房租一年要兩千五百六十二萬存三千三百五十萬啦儲水一天兩千五百六十萬啦你大概剩下八百萬啦你一個月的業務費大概要四百多萬啦所以NCC不是凍結的問題啦你趕快來 趕快送來解凍啦如果我們在野黨的委員要幫忙那很好啦但你凍結只有多少錢你只有凍結四百多萬嘛十趴而已嘛對 業務費凍結給你解凍你要多活一個月啦"},{"start":6486.701,"end":6510.126,"text":"你現在4月你就沒錢了 對不對如果按照你目前可動資的預算對 如果房租你4月沒錢 好 趕快解凍啦 活到5月啦那6月 6月怎麼辦 6月以後咧還不是沒錢 重點在刪除50%啦哪一個單位可以讓你刪50%還能活的哪一個個人 你的家庭 你一半的收入給你砍掉你的生活不受影響的"},{"start":6511.158,"end":6537.1,"text":"那就不可能嘛 你們要跟我清楚但是要解凍好趕快來解凍 多活一個月也好啦好像到五月 五月過後再想辦法你剛說你怎麼解決 請房東先不要再收房租喔延後租 延後收 你看所以我們立法院草野刪預算刪到房東要付出代價女兒拜託看看啦 女兒你們出頭要拜託一下"},{"start":6538.971,"end":6562.14,"text":"好 我要回來講今天我們大家要關心的第一個就是7.5的問題嘛是這7.5現在我想NCC政策轉向很清楚你現在是不要收嘛對 現在是停徵狀態但目前是停徵狀態嘛不過因為你去年給他通過這個收費的辦法"},{"start":6564.824,"end":6587.733,"text":"這是個行政命令嘛對 行政命令 法規命令也就是說如果依NCC自己公佈的行政命令 現在要收期150但是因為外界大家反對嘛所以NCC你現在是跟財政部談好了財政部有同意嘛對 用規範法的方式去停政就停政 目前是停政狀態嘛那你要把這個問題解決就是你要把你那個行政命令給拿掉"},{"start":6589.195,"end":6604.044,"text":"對不對 要修改嘛對 把它修改那你就把它修改成不收這筆錢嘛對 如果不收的話就是要把原來收費這個項目要改掉你現在命令要改掉那你現在能不能改現在命令現在沒有辦法不能嘛 因為你沒有委員嘛"},{"start":6605.76,"end":6633.066,"text":"那沒有委員的話我們只能先用停徵那我們希望未來的時間朝野能夠有一個共識希望能夠解決NCC目前沒有委員的這種狀態不管用什麼方式但是在新的NCC的委員產生以前在還沒有修改目前規定要收費的行政命令的狀態下我們只能持續不斷的停徵是不是這樣"},{"start":6635.405,"end":6652.6,"text":"對 目前的情況是這樣這個大概是行政單位還有朝野的共識所以目前就繼續的停政一直到你把這個辦法修改完沒錯那修改之前的前提條件就是NCC要委員產生不過還有一個問題"},{"start":6654.721,"end":6676.39,"text":"因為畢竟這個會產生費用啦因為我就看一下你這個二級電信管制設平器材的輸入案件越來越多啦因為現在網路大家都在忙碌買東西啦我看從兩年前的一年兩萬兩千九百多件現在到四萬件了啦那四萬個piece你一定需要一些"},{"start":6679.372,"end":6694.074,"text":"行政支出嘛 你不要再去檢查 第二你現在又沒有業務費了 還要用抬一半而已第二 你如果不想讓人家收這筆錢 那你NCC如何來解決這些案量"},{"start":6696.737,"end":6712.912,"text":"來我們這邊是加強用引入這個類AI的方式對你要用類AI啦為什麼我們要給他收750因為他目前的檢查其實比較落後啦你都要請人工啦我調查一下大概要請五個到六個你才能處理這麼多件"},{"start":6714.393,"end":6740.319,"text":"這些人在幹嘛 只是在對照他的規格啦還有說明書啦 看有符合沒嘛還有確診書確診書啦 其實都需要用人的眼睛去對啦基本上等於是都靠人力勞力所以你才需要去給人家收集白虎嘛其實你只要提高力的那個效率啦你用導入AI 類AI的那個技術 你可以節省這些人力"},{"start":6741.797,"end":6770.012,"text":"其實你就不用想這麼多這樣你必須要徹底解決辦法也請委員支持我們明年會編這個預算我們也會支持啦當然你謝謝委員那也希望也要跟那個我們再一黨立委溝通一下啦開始把你抬這樣喔你的單位根本沒辦法運作嘛什麼靠那個 靠人抬一半我都不想讓你那你五月以後怎麼辦啦好 再來另外今天大家討論的另外一點喔"},{"start":6771.974,"end":6783.103,"text":"就是關於我們目前在網路上一些像那個SAP的問題"},{"start":6786.035,"end":6807.163,"text":"就是如果我們政府已經把它給封鎖的網站那很多人會利用這些ISB或者是MVNO這些管制方法其實最主要就是你那個電信管理法修法你把它修掉二類電信都不用管制了你當時是因為說產業變化很快幹嘛但是後來確實產生一些問題了"},{"start":6812.096,"end":6821.221,"text":"你現在二類電線的問題現在看起來國衛這邊是希望你們要趕快納管否則會有一些失控的狀態那你現在看法呢"},{"start":6823.912,"end":6851.468,"text":"就是村局委員這張簡報所提示的MVM這塊我們目前在執法納管那如果母法也拉上母法裡頭明文列在那邊我們是尊重也支持啦那ISB我們內部討論本來也本來就是有在支持但是現在要提出代表NCC的條文這邊現在是有困難就是委員會的關係但是我們目前的階段的內部幕僚作業都支持"},{"start":6853.304,"end":6872.686,"text":"對 那其實應該要有ECC的版本啦因為今天都是立委的版本嘛我也有連署本黨宗教兵委員的版本就是我們要管制二類電信還有ISB嘛那至於要怎麼管我想你行政單位你應該負責任的話 你應該也提出你的版本來啦"},{"start":6873.639,"end":6897.982,"text":"我們內部都有研議但是要提出代表機關出去的就是現在卡在這個一般的正常程序SOP必須要委員會一通過的目前是比較有這個方面的挑戰好另外你所謂的二類電信你現在目前呢就是你電信管理法修法又改為自願登記制嘛是不是這樣是"},{"start":6899.567,"end":6927.732,"text":"那也跟委員報告原來的電信法下的二類電信它範圍很廣包括這邊所講的MVMISP還有包括其他的一些跟資訊服務很接近的一些服務那比方說是語音會議語言會議服務視訊會議服務這些都變成APP了所以那些納管會比較有困難也會影響這個ICT產業但是你所謂的志願登記制現在有幾家來登記"},{"start":6929.932,"end":6952.894,"text":"ISP的部分目前有六十五家登記有六十五家來登記是什麼沒有啦 六十幾家啦全部六十幾家 六十幾家都有來登記嗎他原來 但是有些是他結束營業不收但是電信房實際是有一百多家啦 現在是有六十幾家但是你知道有六十幾家嘛對"},{"start":6954.485,"end":6980.714,"text":"那實際上他們目前是在沒有管制的狀態下嗎有一些黑數但是有來登記的是六十幾家沒有來登記的我們是有黑數的部分如果比照電信法實際當然會有一些落差但是有些是因為他經營不足所以你要登記大概六成五成嘛那其他的黑數怎麼辦所以你採用志願登記之後實際上看起來你沒有辦法落實你的管理"},{"start":6982.79,"end":7007.466,"text":"那因為社會也發生很多的事件啊所以現在才希望啊在NCC在這方面的管制應該要重演啊對所以這塊我們也是支持ISAP要跟那個那如果行政單位跟內委這邊跟國會這邊大概都有共識的話那這個部分的話就是如何管的問題啊我想管制二類電線管制ISAP這個應該是大家有大家你們也都同意嗎"},{"start":7009.031,"end":7035.099,"text":"ISB是二類定性裡頭的一部分但是跟打炸相對比較有關聯這邊我們是支持好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝我們寧靜縣委員特別跟大會報告也就是我們稍等一下到習滬葵委員執行完畢我們就休息十分鐘"},{"start":7037.281,"end":7047.057,"text":"那現在請何欣淳委員執行好 謝謝 謝謝趙偉我們是請主委好 陳代主委"},{"start":7056.031,"end":7075.868,"text":"主委好我今天也是在關心這個ISP的問題那個納管的問題那我針對這個中嘉賓委員的這個提案版本我自己本身有提出一個修正動議那本檔很多委員都有連署那等一下我們可以在討論的時候再好好的來討論但是呢首先我想為什麼我會針對這個ISP要納管"},{"start":7082.393,"end":7091.823,"text":"因為創意私房這個案子我想引起軒然大波而且國民大家深惡痛絕覺得是罪無可赦所以我們很多的民間團體包括家長包括所有的國人都認為這個涉及到兒少性剝削的犯罪的網站"},{"start":7105.396,"end":7116.767,"text":"應該立即要限制接取那上次我們在去年也有提出這個兒少性剝削防治條例的修正我自己也有提出修法的版本在提高這個刑期"},{"start":7118.348,"end":7140.186,"text":"那我們呢除了在法的部分修法提高他的犯罪的這個刑期之外最重要的是當事情的發生之後被告發之後能不能在這個兒少的性影像的即時處理斷網限制接取這個是最重要最重要的喔那NCC在這個部分呢"},{"start":7141.837,"end":7163.483,"text":"必須要主動而且要立即的有態度有立場而且呢能夠呢有方法來遏止來限制這些的所謂的惡意違法的網站那所以我只是請問一下陳代主委未來如果再發生類似像創意私房網站我們NCC第一時間可以直接封網嗎我為什麼會問這個問題"},{"start":7166.284,"end":7188.542,"text":"是在於媒體也說了雖然這個創意私訪已經遭封網但是仍有漏洞可瀏覽這個漏洞其實就跟我們今天在談的ISP是有關係的我們在現行可以提供民眾上網服務的業者你們現在在電信管理法裡面第一類的電信三大電信業者是以及納管強制對不對對"},{"start":7191.324,"end":7209.015,"text":"那第二類電信你剛剛回答其他委員像是我們平常有線電視公司在接一般我們個人家庭的一個用戶也好或者是HiNet或是SoNet等等這些所謂的這個網路的一個服務業者上網民眾上網服務的這個業者"},{"start":7212.037,"end":7234.758,"text":"那我們聽剛剛主委說的 我們現在是要求他自律 然後主動來登記那你說去年有發函給所有的ISP業者 請他們加入自律平台那你剛剛回答 我如果聽得沒錯的話 你說有100多家裡面 現在有60幾家有加入 對不對"},{"start":7235.663,"end":7245.749,"text":"有來登記的也有營業的都有加入DNSRPC有來登記的都有加入那沒來登記的就是黑數你剛剛講承認有黑數嗎"},{"start":7247.93,"end":7266.248,"text":"黑數是指沒有來登記的對啊對啊對啊那所以我現在聽得很模糊從剛剛其他委員問你可不可以再給我精準的數字啊你說有來登記的到底有多少家那你認為的黑數沒來登記的到底有多少"},{"start":7269.05,"end":7292.019,"text":"根據電信法轉軌過渡期間110年那時候有二類ISP有150幾家那到了現在114年有60多家所以這個過程裡頭大概落差了90家左右90家左右不代表他每一家現在都還在營業那你有沒有掌握"},{"start":7293.099,"end":7311.698,"text":"不代表他現在正在營業那你有沒有掌握說在有落差的90幾家到底是哪幾家有在營業哪幾家沒有我們大家盤點了嗎我們大家只有掌握就是剛剛委員說的我們在去年發函給這些ISP業不管他有來登記沒來登記我們請他要加入DSRPG那時候我們有進一步的去過濾去"},{"start":7312.739,"end":7326.164,"text":"如果你有掌握的話那為什麼你今天回答委員都是150多家60多家那到底如果你有盤點你有掌握的話你去年就發函了那到底是幾家"},{"start":7328.648,"end":7343.761,"text":"因為沒有來登記的我無法掌控那就是黑數嘛所以你剛剛跟我說你要請他們來登記那你有掌握但是沒有來登記的你又沒有辦法盤點你沒有辦法盤查那到底有幾家是黑數我們是依據說他當年電信法實際有來登記我們一樣放在給他請他陳太祖偉是"},{"start":7347.887,"end":7373.256,"text":"我是希望啦我們NCC應該主動主動主動我講三次因為很重要你可不可以主動的去盤點能夠有效的掌握到底有到目前為止有多少家那有多少家是有來登記的沒有登記的裡面有多少家是還在營業但是他卻沒有來登記為什麼"},{"start":7376.457,"end":7378.261,"text":"那有多少家是已經沒有在營業了"},{"start":7380.051,"end":7406.057,"text":"我為什麼需要你給我精準的掌握數字因為我們為什麼在這一次今天要談這個不管是兒少的保護或者是等一下我要講的防詐騙我們如果連基本的資料都沒有辦法掌握我們連這個所謂的漏洞或是黑素的業者都沒有辦法掌握那我們如何告訴國人說"},{"start":7407.657,"end":7430.712,"text":"如果有事情發生我第一時間我就知道去哪裡封網抱歉跟委員報告剛剛同仁給我最新資料是有掌握的是有掌握的要講清楚啊總共216家已登記65家未登記150家還有一家是中華電信那他是綜合業務大概是這樣子對嘛那你自己聽看看你的數字跟剛剛"},{"start":7432.233,"end":7457.074,"text":"跟林俊憲委員講的數字 你看落差有多大登記的部分是一樣的登記的部分是一樣 那沒有登記的部分就不一樣啊你講的很籠統啊那好 沒有登記的這150幾家 150家那你又要如何的去有效的掌握所以為什麼要提修法 你現在叫做自律啦自律就是沒有強制性啦沒有強制性你就是沒有辦法掌握啦"},{"start":7458.975,"end":7481.259,"text":"這個我覺得你必須要在立場上跟大家講清楚啦不然國人會對我們NCC啊這個所謂的公權力啊是沒有信心的你知道嗎如果再發生類似的這樣子的一個創意私房的網站我們如何告訴國人說我NCC可以第一時間就直接掌握就直接封網因為你根本剛剛的回答告訴我們你沒有掌握嘛"},{"start":7487.173,"end":7516.693,"text":"所以我要拜託主委我為什麼會談這件事情我一直在強調保障兒少的權益是全國人民的共識那NCC在兒少的傳播這個網路的一個權益的一個政策裡面你知道我現在google到的你們的網站上面所有兒少通訊傳播權益的政策白皮書還停留在2011年就是呢速發布還沒有成立的時候那當然你們在去年2024有提出一個初稿"},{"start":7517.733,"end":7543.683,"text":"叫做網際網路傳播政策白皮書那三件事平台自律、部會協力、共識治理那在你們提出的這個政策白皮書的初稿裡面也有提到兒少關鍵字60次但是呢雖然你提了兒少提了60次但是我們還是看不出來到底我們在"},{"start":7544.724,"end":7551.453,"text":"網路的這個相關的治理政策裡面為了守護保護兒少我們到底要怎麼做"},{"start":7554.96,"end":7580.6,"text":"這塊剛剛委員所提到這個白皮書是有是兩個白皮書我們最新的是網際網路這一塊我們已經完成了那個專業諮詢那接下來要進行這公聽會那裡頭涉及到兒童的部分我們大概是大概是跟委員這邊所提示的一樣我們必須就是兩方面業者端平台端他的那個專業的培力包括還有民眾端素養的這邊的宣導教育這邊我們都是從這兩方面兩端來進行處理"},{"start":7582.25,"end":7609.663,"text":"什麼時候可以訂稿你們的這個政策白皮書經過專家還要經過公聽會那什麼時候要開公聽會那公聽會開完之後呢大概什麼時候可以告訴我們這一個初稿是可以訂稿是你們的政策白皮書那你們在這個政策白皮書裡面到底可以告訴國人如何具體的在網路的相關的這個治理裡面你們是可以守護兒少的安全"},{"start":7610.276,"end":7628.07,"text":"是的 因為公民會大概是4月份會辦理完成辦理完成之後 照過往這個更久以前這個100年這個兒少政策白皮書是要上委員會議那這邊我們會經過那個程序但是完成的初稿 上委員會之前初稿委員會寫一個報告給跟委員報告"},{"start":7631.041,"end":7654.468,"text":"所以呢所以就是應該是公聽會完之後內部在現有的資議會議來收斂以後會有一個版本但是要真正比照以前那個兒少通訊傳播權益白皮書那個還要上委員會議所以你的意思是說最後的final的定稿的版本你現在可能還沒有辦法說一個時間出來是因為委員會還沒有辦法組成委員人數不夠是"},{"start":7656.007,"end":7677.046,"text":"那要講清楚啊所以我們也呼籲大家或者是在野黨各黨派大家一起支持我們NCC的委員那委員人數能夠到達法定的一個這個名額的時候那都到位的時候那很多相關NCC的業務都能夠推動那包括這個我們強調的"},{"start":7679.868,"end":7704.855,"text":"網際網路的傳播政策白皮書裡面到底對於兒少安全的保護的具體的一個方向跟措施跟建議我們才能夠有最後的一個定稿那也才能夠讓NCC在這個領域裡面趕快的往前推趕快的做讓國人能夠信任讓孩子的網路上的兒少的安全可以獲得保障不是嗎"},{"start":7705.695,"end":7732.982,"text":"是是啊那請書面報告給我一份好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們何新淳委員的執行現在請習富凱委員執行習富凱執行完畢我們就休息10分鐘謝謝召委有請我們陳代理主委好陳代理主委"},{"start":7739.953,"end":7758.77,"text":"主委長我想剛剛有提到很多關於NCC業務的問題我想在處理業務之前NCC還是要先自救因為主委之前有提過我們目前的業務費預算今天是4月2號有可能這個月就要斷催了到底會不會斷催"},{"start":7760.216,"end":7769.997,"text":"我們現在如果是把我們的土地租金扣掉的話4月份一定會斷槌那我們現在是跟地主來協商延後支付"},{"start":7771.101,"end":7799.25,"text":"現在我們地主是郵政協會嗎?他們有同意嗎?還在協商當中因為他們也有他們的壓力他們必須要對他們的董監事負責聽說我們也有去詢問相關的單位有在做其他的一個考量我們有跟類似營建署說有沒有其他辦公地點可以供我們搬家他們盤點結果初步是說沒有"},{"start":7801.096,"end":7814.95,"text":"你們現在連未來辦公室可能何去何從都不曉得以後怎麼辦業務就是原則上我們希望說跟地主協商跟運動協會協商然後先把眼前的難關渡過這樣"},{"start":7816.79,"end":7841.445,"text":"主委我想那個NCC是我們國家很重要的一個機關那當然我們剛剛我們何偉銘在講這個你們目前委員的人數也不夠乾脆工作沒辦法那甚至預算也沒辦法解凍所以在這邊我們也要拜託拜託我們林國成召委這個預算趕快來解凍不然這個未來可能沒辦公室大家都要居家辦公不然這要怎麼辦對我目前"},{"start":7842.987,"end":7857.621,"text":"漁務費部分凍結是一小部分主要是剩餘的數額不夠多的部分這個還是我們要持續來努力啦好主委那我想最近發生這個泰緬地震的時候有一個很嚴重的問題"},{"start":7858.562,"end":7880.82,"text":"就是我們泰緬這邊的這個民眾有反映到泰國政府花了大錢建置的一個檢訊系統這個預警系統很重要但是並沒有發揮應有的一個作用那我想NCC是我們台灣這個主管防災警的一個訊息的一個主管機關那過去我們都會接到一些相關的一些資訊那這部分我們目前國內的運作機制有沒有問題"},{"start":7882.642,"end":7907.225,"text":"我們因為台灣大概每年都會汛期或颱風期間都會有這些做壓力測試所以三大業者的網路的韌性大致都保持一定程度那他們主要的網路也包括交換中心包括河網那邊大概也列屬在關鍵基礎設施那這邊有數位部的協力也加強他的那個風險管控"},{"start":7907.805,"end":7918.436,"text":"防護演練等等所以基本上是任性上應該我們都會持續精進目前大致都還符合一般民眾的期待"},{"start":7919.526,"end":7939.848,"text":"主委我想比較應該因為我們是這個我們是地震這個頻率很高而且馬上這個七八月以後就是颱風季節那所以因為我們目前來講我們地震還有包含颱風這些相關的防汛的一個訊息多久可以傳到這個民眾的手機裡面有沒有一個SOP的一個機制"},{"start":7941.229,"end":7956.214,"text":"PWS這塊災防告解那一塊如果是國家級的話要看他所在區域那如果一般通信他是電磁波發射那都很快像上次地震大概幾乎是零時差的就傳到該收到PWS檢訊的"},{"start":7959.815,"end":7986.087,"text":"的民眾的手上基本上這些都是他因為哪些區域要發布是那個相對的那個頭端那邊的相關機關去負責的比方說地震或者颱風那是氣象署他會把需求提供給這個相關的單位我們NCC這邊負責是傳輸從CBC傳到民眾的手機端這邊但是我們還是要掌握啦是是"},{"start":7986.946,"end":8009.914,"text":"那我還是要提醒主委去年我們0403地震的時候總共有172個基地台受到影響那因為基地台如果受到影響也沒辦法發送簡訊這是一個很嚴重的問題那針對這樣一個狀況NCC是不是有做一個基地台的一個演練甚至一個備援電力的一個機制甚至搶修能力的一個處理是不是有做這樣一個規劃"},{"start":8011.359,"end":8034.776,"text":"都有 比方說重要的偏鄉或哪些重要據點我們大概都會要求高抗災或者說相對它必須要一個儲電設備起碼72小時這種備用電源用有機的方式當作它發電設備提供它電源這一塊都有歷年下來都有持續在要求精進主委那平常我們大概幾個月會去做這樣一個警示"},{"start":8036.927,"end":8065.147,"text":"至於演練的話PWS演練會有定期有些是包括整個系統備援南端北端這些的備援都有演練其他的local地區的測試有時看地方政府的需要我們都每季之類的都會有定期在演練這個我們還是要拜託主委這個督促我們相關的單位我們針對這個國家通訊建設部分一定還是要落實不能這個有發生一個意外的狀況"},{"start":8066.033,"end":8080.781,"text":"是我們都會要求業者每年都要辦理演練好所以那我想有一個比較政治性的問題就是最近針對這個政論節目檢舉的案件去年一整年總共發生了大概1000多件的一個檢舉案件其中"},{"start":8081.621,"end":8109.8,"text":"去年的第四季我們NCC收到的檢舉數量將近六百件進一步來分析齁其中有三百五十四件是屬於政論性的談話節目那其中第一名是三百零八件就是年代新聞的雅琴看世界那這個部分我想這個雅琴看世界也被我們在野黨的委員提出來要求她要關台齁那這個部分主委怎麼看待這個事情"},{"start":8110.465,"end":8132.06,"text":"我可不可以請我們處長來補充一下對那個300多件是針對同一集的節目那這同一集節目我們已經提節目諮詢會來討論了那討論之後我們要就是要準備要進我們的委員會做最後的決定那最後決定究竟會怎麼處理這會看我們最後委員會的決定"},{"start":8134.242,"end":8156.511,"text":"主委處長我還是要提醒一下根據我們NCC接到的檢舉案件來看第一劑183件第二劑有362件第三劑276件到第四劑變成598件那有沒有人是刻意在惡意的檢舉這部分我們有沒有做怎樣的一個不成比例的一個分析"},{"start":8157.915,"end":8172.221,"text":"有些是同個案件然後很多人好像報復性檢舉這邊有很多也是他本身權益的部分這邊類型上大概都會有一些整理我們不會"},{"start":8173.787,"end":8200.402,"text":"究竟民眾他的動機是什麼我們不會去研析但是我們會就看他的申訴的內容去看是不是有涉及那他們目前申訴內容是不是大同小異這不一定這看還是要看情況但是剛剛有提到的就是某一個節目他確實在今年的第四年第四季他是三百多件好那因為現在我們ACC的委員不夠嘛那能不能開發"},{"start":8204.655,"end":8215.893,"text":"因為要考量這個多元性還有過往的行政管理NCC這些行政管理會自我拘束以往這種涉及電視媒體的這些裁罰大概都要經過委員會議所以目前是沒辦法做了"},{"start":8216.536,"end":8232.973,"text":"那我們是不是有把這個案件可以送到這個有我們專家學者公民團體跟我們相關的實務工作者組成的一個廣播電視節目的廣告諮詢會議來做審查有這個機制嗎?有,目前能走到最遠的距離就是走到這個諮詢會議目前"},{"start":8234.898,"end":8256.629,"text":"那我們會公布最後的這個資訊結果嗎資訊結果是公務委員會的參考所以他是內部意見做成前的一些意見根據政府資訊公開法根據各自法根據行程序法這些都是屬於內部資訊不會對外公布這個還是要主委還是要妥善處理啦是那最後針對我想今天我們很多委員都提到針對這個去年引起爭議這個"},{"start":8258.03,"end":8276.19,"text":"我們這個民眾從國外網站進口兩部以下自由手機或藍牙耳機這個被收750塊審查費的案子那我們後來局議是暫緩嗎對我們現在是停政狀態那我們會期待一年內停政期間來做好法規的修正主委有沒有信心這一年能不能把這個案子處理好"},{"start":8276.673,"end":8299.507,"text":"那我們會朝著方向努力但是因為涉及到委員會來拍板那如果沒有的話我們會有想到說會請財政部來繼續再展現這個停政的期限這個還是會引起很多這個民眾的一個不好的一個印象主要是把它當做一件很重要的事情來做處理是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝習副委員好我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8315.008,"end":8328.556,"text":"是不是群打結束之後群打結束之後就說完畢 完畢 完畢人家也是人家也是人家也是平常他那個網案他都沒有發現在說他太簡單了"},{"start":8341.104,"end":8346.148,"text":"挖掘層的存在是對的,那我來試試看吧,試試看吧,我來試試看吧,我來試試看吧"},{"start":8372.849,"end":8376.411,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8406.389,"end":8407.35,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8419.531,"end":8436.988,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8438.449,"end":8442.63,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。"},{"start":8466.221,"end":8466.241,"text":"好"},{"start":8493.52,"end":8493.82,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8522.879,"end":8524.222,"text":"再給他穿多一點"},{"start":8537.202,"end":8538.083,"text":"好嘞。"},{"start":8579.71,"end":8582.651,"text":"那我"},{"start":8596.134,"end":8604.038,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的一間餐廳"},{"start":8625.128,"end":8625.949,"text":"我沒有堅持,我只是..."},{"start":9928.049,"end":9952.575,"text":"好各位請就座好各位請就座好現在我們請蔡七章副院長執行謝謝主席請陳代理主委好陳代理主委你好"},{"start":9954.316,"end":9970.305,"text":"主委這個我想早上很多委員也都提了有關這個自用低功率射頻器材審查費那我想這個問題從我們這個第一次公告民眾反應很大"},{"start":9971.189,"end":9993.724,"text":"那要收費的這個事情,我想NCC也都從善如流啦你們也發現這個不可以,這個民怨其實很多所以你們也決定在今天的這個送交立法院要審查的這個辦法當中啊你們也直接跟財政部溝通750塊就停政一年"},{"start":9995.225,"end":10022.96,"text":"那其實大家的主張都一樣啦這不只應該停政一年啦這個應該就是不要收費了啦那所以呢這個我們有提了一個案子嘛除了這個這一件事情除了這一個所謂這個750塊的收費這個之外其他的大家意見並不大所以這一個在被查上面我們就不能因為意見我們你也同意我們嘛但是因為公告當時就是已經750了"},{"start":10024.341,"end":10048.121,"text":"所以呢這個這一點這一個就你們回去修改啦那也給你們一段時間去把它調整去把這一條這個收費表格當中的這一項把它做一個修正其他的我想大家意見並不大大家都很有共識那這個是第一個主委你的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員這個方向是我們會遵照的方向來處理"},{"start":10050.202,"end":10074.439,"text":"好那另外今天其他的這個法令包括主要都集中在電信管理法的這個修法那電信管理法修法我想背後其實的重點他還是放在這個詐騙的房子主委你同意嗎 同意好那你要不要簡單跟本席說明一下對於今天的修法從第五條"},{"start":10076.028,"end":10089.313,"text":"第五條第八條之一第七十九條第七十五條第四十條這些相關條文你總結來看這些修法對於打炸的房子在NCC的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":10090.461,"end":10113.75,"text":"是謝謝委員那這次五個提案裡頭規納起來有幾個重點第一個涉及打造的KYC的這一部分因為在打造條例裡頭已經有規定了那也可能是因為提案之初是在打造條例公布之前所提的那這一塊因為已經在打造條例裡頭有規範而且我們自己的執法電信事業用戶號碼"},{"start":10114.99,"end":10134.821,"text":"管理辦法裡頭也有規範所以這一塊我們是建議說要求業者KYC這一塊是建議說可以不用再增列重複的不用再改啦就已經原來其他法規裡面已經有規範了有處理了那等於是重複修正嘛所以你的意思說第一個重複的不要啦"},{"start":10135.842,"end":10162.917,"text":"那另外沒有漏接企業部分,比方說通保法那邊那因為也是通保法去年七月底公布修正公布之後那一塊的提案的要求部分其實在通保法裡頭都已經律定了那一塊也是可以不用重複在電信管理法裡頭來規定這是第二個沒有漏接企業部分那也是建議那一塊就不用再修了不用再增修好,那其他的部分呢"},{"start":10163.53,"end":10182.731,"text":"其他的部分大概是圍繞比方說IASP跟IASP其實是連帶講DSRPG其實要處理DSRPG其實就處理IASP就可以了IASP我們的立場在報告裡頭也有呈現我們是持正面支持的"},{"start":10183.211,"end":10209.072,"text":"那另外這個號碼比方說MVMO批發轉售這一塊我們現在是規定在執法裡頭那委員提案是說把拉到母法拉到法律的位階這個我們也贊同這兩塊我們也贊同但是IASP那一塊因為它的月子規模動態範圍太大了我們會建議說需要有相關的一個層級化的義務的一些方式來納管"},{"start":10210.553,"end":10233.289,"text":"會比較適切那大概我們目前的初步立場是這樣子基本上就是注意ISP應該是對應打造甚至於說打造以外的議題比方說關切的像一些涉及到衛福部的相關的一些不當的影像的那些散布那些都會有一些效果那這邊我們也是支持好"},{"start":10234.575,"end":10255.134,"text":"這個我想我剛剛聽完主委講的話,基本上我都同意啦第一個部分我想我在這個台上,今天抒發部也在啦這個本席認為我已經多次給抒發部很大的壓力甚至我也跟部長講,你抒發部的保證,那位要借的股,只有一個人最重要的工作,就是打賬"},{"start":10256.383,"end":10277.812,"text":"所以一樣的道理我今天啦雖然這個今天書法部也是列席啦但主角在你嘛因為電信管理這個法規在NCC的身上本席立場還是一致啦有關打詐的哪怕打詐的訂了這個法規效果只有一點點哪怕只有一點點本席都支持"},{"start":10278.902,"end":10306.33,"text":"就我們就能夠快步前進的用跑的我們就用跑的但跑不了用走的我們也要用爬的都給他爬到打炸的那個山頭去啦這是本席今天的這個很重要的立場那我也同意法令有規定像通報法等等法規已經修過有規定的如果不重複的原則這個我原則上接受但是譬如說對於這個ISP業者的問題"},{"start":10307.709,"end":10332.279,"text":"我知道主委的意思是這個事情要有一些協定要有一些找大家來訂定怎麼去處理效果會最好啦對 要細緻化的一些處理對 這我同意啦但是我的意思就是說打炸的法規就是對於這個電信管理法裡面今天的修法裡面這個我們有幾個委員同仁也提了版本"},{"start":10333.343,"end":10357.76,"text":"也提了這個修正動議啦 修正現在的這個版本有修正那本席還是認為打詐這個不能手軟 該過的就讓他過該通過就讓他 但是要怎麼通過是最有效這個是可能本席跟其他政黨的委員或許意見不完全一致但是我想大家希望去做好打詐這個工作 目標是很清楚的"},{"start":10358.479,"end":10383.908,"text":"所以有一些版本我同意有一些是可以不用修是因為別的地方已經有了你重複修一次也沒什麼意義第二個部分效果有限我們怎麼讓它效果提升那這可能委員的意見會不一樣那所以我們也有我們也共同提了一個版本希望待會在如果要進行這個條文的討論的時候我們會把我們的修正條文再做一個說明那總而言之就是"},{"start":10385.689,"end":10410.07,"text":"那個NCC也好 抒發部也好 法務部也好我想我們面對打詐的議題啊我們沒有任何妥協的空間啦我們一定要全力去做這個是老百姓心中最care 最關心 也最痛的部分所以我們一起努力啦好 謝謝 謝委員謝謝好 謝謝我們蔡其昌副院長接下來我們陳樹葉委員執行"},{"start":10421.18,"end":10428.966,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請抒發部林次長還有NCC代理主好 抒發部林次長還有我們陳代主委"},{"start":10438.079,"end":10451.364,"text":"林次長還有陳代理主委早安那今天委員會排審就是有關電信管理法修正草案的一個詢問跟處理那我想應該就是很多委員都是在關心就是說"},{"start":10452.744,"end":10481.576,"text":"針對目前就是社會這個民眾期待的就是有關打詐或者是說一些就是暗黑的這個網站怎樣去防堵這個部分大家都非常的一個關注那可能就是目前法令還有未就是沒有完善的一個地方那就像舉這個創意私房這個案子來看就是說在去年被查獲之後那之後呢"},{"start":10482.236,"end":10498.816,"text":"仍然应该当时我们这个数码部就有执行这个停止解析这样子的一个机制嘛可是事后还有这个受害者反映就是说被害人的家属有反映说这个性影像还是在流窜就是还是有人可以"},{"start":10499.216,"end":10528.166,"text":"透過不曉得什麼方式可以去瀏覽所以這個就是一個很大的一個漏洞所以在這邊當時有這樣子的情形發生的時候我們也看到新聞報導就是我們速發部也有回應說會持續精進停止解析的一個機制那我想就是說從那個時候到現在也一年了那我想請問速發部就是說這個精進的部分你們有哪些措施那目前進度如何是不是可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":10528.752,"end":10551.945,"text":"OK 關於這部分像是那個創意私房這樣的網站那我們的做法就是主要是靠著那個所謂的DNS RPZ這個機制我們想辦法降低這些不良的網站的觸及率那其中一個很大的關鍵也是現在還有一些漏洞就是說有些ISP IASP業者他並沒有加入這個"},{"start":10553.726,"end":10571.893,"text":"那個DNSRPZ的機制所以今天我們在這邊討論這個法案這個其實很大的一個目的就是想辦法讓這些原來沒有加入那個DNSRPZ的這些ISP業者看他能不能利用法律的方法或是其他的方法讓他們盡量加入這個"},{"start":10573.314,"end":10602.388,"text":"DNSRPG的機制那這個事情因為主責機關是NCC所以我們也是尊重說NCC的那個想法那是不是可以請那個NCC所以書法部的意思就是說這個還是就是要看NCC就對了就是主責單位相關的措施還是在NCC嘛總之IASB要納管這邊就是目前是這個責任是在NCC這邊我們立場是支持支持納管"},{"start":10602.915,"end":10631.045,"text":"是 支持啦 所以針對這個問題我們去年本席跟中加病委員還有林月璇委員也有召開記者會就是說我們要阻絕詐騙還有就是阻絕這種兒少性剝削這種暗黑網站我們就是要求我們要納管IASP就是有關這個網路接取服務的提供者那這個部分我們就是要求管制那不曉得說目前的管制進度如何是不是可以請NCC說明一下"},{"start":10631.829,"end":10655.652,"text":"是那跟委員報告那在有線電視它有經營這個快明上網都是ISP那一塊都已經有直接或間接加入DNS RPE何謂直接就是它的DNS它都直接加入TWNIC DNS RPG何謂間接它採用三大電信業者的DNS所以因為三大電信業者的DNS已經加入"},{"start":10656.874,"end":10665.25,"text":"所以直接跟間接有問題是63家全部加入這是第一個報告第二個報告電信的部分三大電信都有加入那"},{"start":10666.474,"end":10686.542,"text":"過往IASP二類電信的IASP裡頭有來登記的有營業的全部都加入那沒有來登記的我們去年有發函去行政指導他們請他們要加入那今天如果有立法有把他納管的話那後續的效果會更好另外跟委員補充那"},{"start":10687.242,"end":10709.797,"text":"即便是那些目前沒有來登記目前沒有被納管的因為他很多的寬頻或者電路的採購都是跟三大電信那這邊我們也許可以在過多期間會要求三大電信業者說你跟他TA關係上你可以可以要求他盡可能是用他的DNS RPG這樣子間接也可以達到有加入DNS RPG的效果"},{"start":10710.342,"end":10719.45,"text":"對所以目前針對這種ISP的管制我們是採取就是讓他們主動來登記嘛是不是沒有強制性嘛是不是"},{"start":10719.929,"end":10741.609,"text":"法規上是沒有強制性因為雖然DNS RPG它效果不是100分但是說是大家都是盡量去努力因為很多技術上網際網路很多技術上不管是他直接打IP address或用境外的DNS都可以繞過但是這個我們能夠為多數的民眾來把關的我們都會盡量去努力"},{"start":10742.099,"end":10761.418,"text":"是那如果說我們今天修法將這個就是ISP這個管制啊強制要求強制一定要的話有沒有困難這個部分把ISP熱納管的話我們會在他比較細緻的這個執法的規範裡頭我們可以來來努力看看來要求"},{"start":10761.929,"end":10779.045,"text":"是就是因為我剛剛有聽到你回答那個我們蔡副院長的有一個重點你說要層級化的管理嘛是不是就是需要所以這個需要比較細緻的一個層級化細緻的管理所以它因為我們電信管理法有很多因為有些大業者"},{"start":10779.525,"end":10794.925,"text":"準這個S&P準這個市場主導者他的義務非常多那這些我們都是比較但是大家共識是DSRPG如果是大家是一定要的話這邊應該是公版的公版的義務這邊應該到時候應該會很有機會變成是普遍要適用的"},{"start":10795.385,"end":10812.017,"text":"是我想這個部分因為畢竟你們是主責機關而且你們也是專業的專家所以這個法要怎麼訂會比較完善我想就是也是要由你們自己在做會後或者是進一步的一個擬定這樣子"},{"start":10812.797,"end":10838.104,"text":"好 一定的 我們可以協定一定會來辦我想這個也都是大家的一個共識就是說對於主角詐騙還有主角這種暗黑網站我想這都是大家的一個共識也是社會的一個期待好 那就是有關這個詐騙真的是目前社會大眾一個非常深惡痛絕的一個部分所以在上一次的會議裡面我有詢問"},{"start":10840.225,"end":10857.741,"text":"這個陳代理主委有關這個就是簡訊的問題那當然我今天就是針對LINE的部分因為目前就是在這個發商業簡訊的部分我們NCC已經有比較精進的一個辦法就是白名單就是審核的一個機制那我們發現說"},{"start":10859.763,"end":10880.559,"text":"經過這樣子的一個機制之後這些詐騙的簡訊它已經轉換成沒有連結網站的就是LINE的這樣子的一個形式所以這個部分我要請教林次長那這部分應該就是屬於我們速發部的業務嘛因為我們也看到目前LINE帳號被盜的通報數有增加了80%那這邊我們有沒有什麼可以因應的措施"},{"start":10881.159,"end":10908.062,"text":"OK 事實上最近我們才接到LINE的通知他們最近會改善他們救回帳號的機制就是有些民眾他的LINE帳號被盜就是帳號密碼被盜那他們最近應該是有做在我們的輔導與協助之下他們會有新的措施讓帳號被盜的民眾可以有更好的方法把它救回來那他們最近應該會做一個宣布"},{"start":10908.701,"end":10924.296,"text":"他們會做一個宣布那目前的話我們就沒有比較可以就是比較有效的一個方法嗎就是要等LINE的一個回覆因為這個LINE比較特別就是說LINE跟那個Meta或者Google不一樣"},{"start":10925.017,"end":10954.063,"text":"因為Meta跟Google它基本上是公開的平台但是Line是那個通訊軟體那通訊軟體牽涉到就是說我們必須依照憲法規定我們必須保障那個通訊的秘密這個自由這是一個權利所以會有這個我們當然是對於詐騙深惡痛絕但是我們因為我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家所以對於這個Line那個私訊內容的這個地方我們比較難直接用政府的公權力去涉入"},{"start":10954.505,"end":10960.732,"text":"所以這樣子就是會去拖延到比如說遭受到詐騙的或者是說賴帳號被盜的我們沒有辦法及時去處理"},{"start":10964.287,"end":10989.756,"text":"我們會想盡各種方法處理那包含就是我們會希望透過民眾的自願的就是說讓他把一些那個訊息揭露出來讓LINE的那個公司他可以去幫他去檢查說是不是有詐騙的嫌疑但是這個從政府的角度來講我不能強迫民眾說你必須把你那個通訊的內容給LINE公司或者甚至於給政府來監看"},{"start":10990.976,"end":11010.971,"text":"是好那我想就是說今天我們在討論相關的一個法案的一個修訂我們都是希望就是說讓我們的法令的一個規定就是更加的一個完善那我想這個部分也是需要我們各部會或者是我們許多的單位一起去集思廣益的一個部分好謝謝"},{"start":11012.373,"end":11015.339,"text":"非常謝謝委員的支持謝謝陳樹業委員的執行現在我們請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":11035.578,"end":11048.863,"text":"好 謝謝主席 邀請我們NCC我們陳主委好 陳代主委來我看到那個數位部的林次長還有 問候而已 還有黃次長行事局的邱副局長我們今天來這邊好像都沒問到你們 先說聲對不起陳主委是"},{"start":11063.524,"end":11075.374,"text":"首先要跟你請教一下所以我看到NCC大概這個壽命最短的一個政策一個政策五天嘛2月5號"},{"start":11077.026,"end":11101.201,"text":"開始收費2月10號就投降就說暫停那這中間其實這個部分750塊目前是先暫緩一年然後有這個機會你上次有說明啦有這個機會把你們再兩年一次在修規定的過程中再把它修沒有現在是朝這個方向在努力是的好那我現在最主要是說這個"},{"start":11104.205,"end":11119.832,"text":"發生這樣的一個最短壽命那個可以講我覺得民眾非常不喜歡那個政策我覺得一定會留下什麼樣東西讓我們所有人可以學習所以我今天在想你們這個整個審查的過程中包括從去年的6月27號"},{"start":11121.653,"end":11141.374,"text":"有兩次的委員會決定了通過了收費的辦法然後呢9月5號也講說要跟大家說明一下說明一下9月5號在你們大禮堂也辦了這個收費標準的公開說明會就公開了公開說明會怕大家不知道"},{"start":11142.555,"end":11162.436,"text":"然後10月30號接下來就確定了收費的一個標準2月5號開始收費當然這中間我們看到了都是你內部的一個行政的一個決定委員會的一個考量你們的一個決策當然法律有授權你們這個部分750塊是有沒有經過立法院"},{"start":11164.131,"end":11182.801,"text":"你們自己的決定嗎跟委員報告先補充第一點就是對外諮詢意見的話在草案階段我們有對外諮詢意見這是第一點補充第二點補充在今年但是我們法規委員會通過之後我們還有兩次以上在那個會辦理"},{"start":11185.442,"end":11200.089,"text":"進口器材的那個官網的首頁有在有在宣告有在公告讓人家知道好那回到剛才的第二個問題這個NAPL的討論其實之前這個在去年六月以來"},{"start":11201.409,"end":11215.858,"text":"還有一些非正式的公開說明會比方說有一些報關行等等這些都有在持續在溝通但是自用部分在標準作業程序上在通過委員會議10月30號之前確實這邊是沒有意義的"},{"start":11216.658,"end":11233.973,"text":"好 這個部分是你們自己一個行政的一個考量行政的裁量你們覺得一個需要你們行政機關法定的授權但是法定授權在你考量的時候我覺得應該要有更多徵詢到未來會被徵收到你的政策改變它會影響到的部分它需要參與這個意見的一個表達"},{"start":11236.235,"end":11258.003,"text":"那這個部分也沒有經過立法院的審議那有跟我們立法院任何一個公聽會或者委員任何一個臨時提案有什麼關係嗎750塊有關係嗎有關係因為這個就是法規命令這個收購標準就是法規命令法規命令的SOP就是你在預告階段必須要灑出去給"},{"start":11258.903,"end":11284.997,"text":"不特定的對象還有一些相關機關包括消息機構等等都會來諮詢意見所以那個階段剛剛跟委員報告我們那個階段其實大概都包括這個這次提案那個重開展平台都有在徵詢簡單來講我們很多委員都一樣就公告實施民運開始的時候我沒注意到這個問題那我們現在特別調你資料的時候看到你們辦一個這麼大一個9月5號9月5號"},{"start":11288.439,"end":11305.993,"text":"你們辦一個非常盛大的一個公聽會叫說明會啦公開說明會我在講因為你們在整個修正這個規費部分當然可能有很多項其中有一項是個人自用的郵寄兩部以下的這個的部分可能只是其中之一嘛"},{"start":11306.733,"end":11331.863,"text":"可是我不知道你們當時有沒有想到說它的影響後座力有多大後面的後座力感覺你們有沒有開始應變啊感覺讓我感覺其實你們剛開始想的好像沒有這麼嚴重那我也發覺你們當時想的我看到囉你們在公開說明會不是說光網路光隨便人都可以來喔你正式邀請了二十幾個單位"},{"start":11333.804,"end":11358.74,"text":"從中華電信到相關的一個進口公司 銷售公司包括什麼香港商啊 什麼電訊公司啊所有的企業法案都邀了請問一下750塊個人的名聲 自己用的郵寄你當天安排誰去做這個正式會議的代表你有安排 你有邀請消極會嗎你安排這些公司 誰代表"},{"start":11359.864,"end":11380.451,"text":"有沒有嘛 這個不要變啦 有 還是沒有是 跟委員報告這個因為個人自用是不特定的大眾我們在眾開獎平台也有同步在草案諮詢階段也有同步在眾開獎平台裡頭去公告眾開獎平台是個不特定對象就像後來人家在提案那個平台一樣"},{"start":11381.687,"end":11409.481,"text":"所以那個是否不特定對象的那個平台我們都有在草案都有放在那邊去諮詢意見好 你在決策的時候在想的事情跟結果發生的事情顯然是差距非常大所以我們現在倒過來說以後不要再發生這樣的事情了啦像這樣的你會面臨很大的我跟你講金額可能是這些企業也許會變動的比較大但是以人數影響到的人"},{"start":11411.001,"end":11437.798,"text":"絕對是個人的一個每天在現在郵購已經變成一種現在這個買東西的一個型態嘛所以我是倒過來說啦你當天連消極會或者包括這些不管是電玩代表或者常用這些個人的一個業者其實有一些代表我覺得我相信在第一階段就會反映意見給你我也希望你們能夠注意這個問題好不好好沒問題我們會具體支持教訓"},{"start":11438.658,"end":11465.967,"text":"好 那我今天要問的第二個問題那沒辦法 時代在變這個近8年我們看到有限電視訂戶的一個變化從106年我們看到全國2100多萬戶哇 平均我們現在2300多萬人好像差不多2000多萬這樣的因為搞不好一戶有兩個甚至有公司的這個部分那一直到去年113年"},{"start":11467.802,"end":11488.273,"text":"下降了16%訂戶逐年下降因為這是一個趨勢逐年下降已經變成一個趨勢因為甚至有限電視業者他自己也改變了他也變成透過網路了他也不是有限電視有些也走無限了那這樣的一個趨勢第一個對你的相關一些業務"},{"start":11489.654,"end":11517.145,"text":"或者相關的服務未來想法你的政策我覺得這個趨勢是一個重要的一個點現在在逐年下降的過程中那我講其中一個點廣電基金是隨著用戶量當然乘以它的支費訂戶數乘以支費再乘以1%會變成全台灣注入你的我簡稱有間電視名字太長了我就以廣電基金來看"},{"start":11518.746,"end":11546.229,"text":"因為這個趨勢你的廣電基金也從8年前的大概一年可以收3.6億到113年去年2.8億它的降幅啊事實上比戶數降的更多因為為什麼因為這幾年又在討論資費以前都可以收520現在事實上相關的訂戶他搞不好可以特選我只要看新聞台我只要看什麼所以搞不好有些300所以他的"},{"start":11547.69,"end":11565.698,"text":"廣電基金大幅縮水這兩個趨勢最後我會讓你回答因為現在廣電基金的分配跟用途分配的用途地方政府我們當然滿關心這個問題地方政府占40%NCC流用30%"},{"start":11567.279,"end":11586.247,"text":"捐贈給公司30%那這個部分因為每一個這個包括地方政府公司跟你的用途都不太一樣我們兩個不在那我就請教NCC因為在30%裡面你們具體的計畫是說你分到了這樣的一個廣電基金主要會針對於有線電視的發展災害復建計畫跟"},{"start":11591.169,"end":11611.247,"text":"品質提升的整個的計畫像在這個未來持續的減少可能是一個不可逆的趨勢我想請教一下陳主委你對於這樣的一個趨勢所影響管電基金甚至未來適用的這三個單位你有什麼看法或者未來有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":11612.974,"end":11630.805,"text":"各位報告目前的這個規定是在油管法45條它有一相關的規定即便是NCC流用30%裡頭它用的一些規定都有一些條件性質那至於長遠來看這一塊要怎麼處理我們大概有三個方向第一個就是利用這個有限的"},{"start":11631.705,"end":11649.485,"text":"有限的油管基金然後請電信請這個有限電視業者要持續改善他的服務品質然後也鼓勵他他們是順應這時代的變化甚至於現在有些大部分的有限電視大型的MSO大概都有"},{"start":11650.126,"end":11667.465,"text":"靠攏這個OTTV因為這些現象都是OTTV跟中端設備的一星期所以會有一些這種趨勢的變化那即便是國外有減線槽但是另外一個部分我們沒有比較比較一般人沒有在意是說他的快頻上網其實是在慢慢在環境交叉所以"},{"start":11668.426,"end":11684.791,"text":"對有線電視部分而言我們這邊希望它能夠持續保住它的這個用戶的黏著度能夠保有競爭力那未來部分我們也鼓勵它順應時代潮流發展做多元地方文化等等的一些擴展"},{"start":11685.931,"end":11698.056,"text":"那至於這個就電公司的部分那雖然廣電法也有一些規定說未來有空間做一些處理但是現在文化部公司那邊目前他覺得他還是有一些需要那這邊都暫時還是沒有辦法來處理以上補充"},{"start":11702.078,"end":11726.109,"text":"好 陳志偉因為我今天質詢的時間已經到了今天這個第二題的一個最主要的一個用意這個已經不是未來的趨勢 是現在進行式啦現在進行式啦你肯定會有一些政策來去配合這方面的尤其有限電視它有些部分隨著用戶的下滑 它基金下滑但是你的有些服務的項目它不是變動的譬如說"},{"start":11728.611,"end":11746.048,"text":"我這個線要拉這麼遠過去有一萬戶現在變五千戶不好意思線還是這麼長你必須拉到所以像災害的復建有些品質的提升發展其實你的用的金額是固定的所以我覺得你要先期預備這可能的一個變化"},{"start":11747.169,"end":11768.402,"text":"這是我的一個最後的建議然後最後廣電基金因為基金還沒有審也沒有刪你不要回去跟我講說廣電基金已經被刪多少了因為還沒審那我們也希望這個部分我會來支持好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝我們魯明哲委員現在請我們黃建豪委員執行"},{"start":11782.762,"end":11790.447,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們一樣請NCC代理主委這個陳主委好那個陳代主委"},{"start":11792.585,"end":11820.083,"text":"主委好主委好我想今天第一個當然大家非常關心所謂750之亂的後續那當然過去NCC在10多年前都有規定說如果從海外輸入三部以上的電信管制射頻器材產品本來就要繳交這個審查費600塊的部分那當然兩部以下是以前是不用收費那當然去年今年有本來說要收費後來大家關心之後現在暫緩一年嘛那我想問一下這個暫緩一年是一年後來討論還是一年後會要收"},{"start":11820.916,"end":11838.322,"text":"一年內來檢討來修改這個收費辦法好 因為我們這個很多法律剛剛前面委員都討論過然後我再問一個比較直觀的問題就是ACC在這個事件上的說明是因為是要維護這所謂國內的電波秩序那在這個問題上面大家就想要問一件事情"},{"start":11839.102,"end":11855.318,"text":"民眾的直覺邏輯是說那如果三部以上要收費那兩部以下你現在講說自帶如果是自帶的話我從國外我不是去買我不是這個網購假設一樣都是從海外取得所謂的電波產品這些產品自己從國外帶回來跟這個網購帶回來"},{"start":11859.52,"end":11872.409,"text":"為什麼自己帶的不用收網購的要收難道自己帶回來的就不會影響所謂的國內電波秩序嗎只有網購了才會影響國內電波秩序風險都存在我是不是請我們蔡處長來補充"},{"start":11874.5,"end":11893.431,"text":"首先跟委員報告就是那個不管你是自帶或者是那個郵寄的其實他都會有可能風險產生干擾這個問題一定是存在的那後市場管理的部分我們就是去看如果有民眾來申訴他這個地方收到干擾的時候我們才去解決"},{"start":11894.051,"end":11922.899,"text":"那前面那個自帶的那個網購那個網購的部位一般一般他都是新品進來嘛所以新品進來的時候他的那個在通關的過程當中他的時間會比較長所以比較有機會因為他要上網去填報這個那個那個切接書對切接書所以我們這邊就可以去幫忙事先的一些審核那攜帶式的我們當初為什麼用五件的方式是以現在的這個社會那個民眾他身上其實"},{"start":11923.579,"end":11938.801,"text":"以前就只有手機大不了在一個notebook那現在以他的手機耳機什麼通通有所以他也有可能是在境內買好的完成合格的品所以他因為旅遊的關係而出入境所以他的件數會稍微多"},{"start":11939.261,"end":11961.712,"text":"那到底是到建樹達到什麼程度他就會我們認為他不是自用或者是他是商業新聞過去的因為過去的這個規定就是一大舞台是雖然自用嘛沒關係我現在要問的問題是說因為我希望你們今年這一年要討論這件事情我們希望這個邏輯是一致的就是說我覺得很直觀的疑問是說如果今天我從國外帶一次舞台我自己帶進來"},{"start":11963.365,"end":11977.942,"text":"是沒有收取所謂的審查費對不對但是我從國外我既然上網訂購任何國外的新品我反而要收審查費在本來的法律邏輯裡面長這樣子那我的意思是說"},{"start":11979.471,"end":11998.476,"text":"因為你們的理由如果你們的理由是說是要為了維護國內的店舖秩序啦那這樣就很奇怪了我自己帶回來我自己出國帶回來你不用管嗎沒有還是要跟委員報告所有的產品進來我們都希望他是符合我們境內的我們國家的所謂規範上面的要求那他還是有可能是會干擾"},{"start":11998.996,"end":12023.334,"text":"的確他是會干擾所以我們每年都會處理民眾他曾經的案件說他的電波干擾我們就會透過我們的電波監測站去測如果測得到那就好如果民眾的檢舉有更明確的位置的時候那我們都會出動那個行動監測車到護監區去處理我也跟委員補充報告舉個例子好了Wi-Fi國內跟國外有的開的頻段不一樣有些"},{"start":12024.255,"end":12049.167,"text":"假設美國是開100個單位都這麼寬的頻寬國內可能只開70個單位那如果他吸進來那後面30個單位我們沒有開的他在使用的時候就會干擾國內那個30個單位的原有使用者那就是電波干擾主委這些技術問題的確你們之前都說明過我只是很疑惑我的點在於說自己帶5台不用收"},{"start":12051.961,"end":12055.984,"text":"網購兩台反正就開始要收這件事情在民眾會覺得我們會覺得說"},{"start":12058.993,"end":12083.171,"text":"這個邏輯不一致嘛 很奇怪嘛是 所以這一次這個這一次那個中開獎上面的這個名義所以我們就是決定是剛才主委有報告就是說我們兩台自用以下的我們也不會再收成身材好 沒關係反正今年你們要檢討這件事情我還是希望說第一個你們要去邀請真正的剛剛前面那個魯明哲委也提到了包含說消息會代表消費者權益的這一部分的"},{"start":12083.931,"end":12093.193,"text":"的這個聲音要出來了不是就你們的意見了應該要有真正使用者的意見在裡面好不好好沒問題接下來討論一下這個大家看到我們今天有提案所謂修法部分"},{"start":12094.352,"end":12121.841,"text":"可以看到這個所謂電信詐騙因為今天我想這個數位部跟法務部也都在不過我可能時間應該不太夠待會下午再出我們先討論這個就數字來看電信詐騙的部分從110年到現在的確是在攀升那去年有稍微下降一點那這個主因當然我不知道主因是什麼原因啦其中的原因當然是因為所謂的二類電信的氾濫二類電信過去在所謂電信法時代是有管制的嘛那現在"},{"start":12123.363,"end":12144.581,"text":"進入了新的法令之後我們把它等於是要解封了那反而解封之後我覺得本來原因是為了鼓勵產業創新啊但是我覺得創新到現在變成它變成一個詐騙集團很好的一種工具那我要問的主委就是說過去既然能夠把這個惡劣經濟列管那為什麼現在新的法令反而不想管呢"},{"start":12146.006,"end":12162.075,"text":"原因哪裡主要是幾個原因第一個是因為原來二類電信它的很多範圍是跟那個資訊服務業是灰色地帶有互相交融我舉個例子像我們疫情期間很多用的會議軟體在過去二類電信裡頭就有語音會議服務視訊會議服務這些在"},{"start":12168.078,"end":12187.507,"text":"疫情期間其實很多是國外的APP如果那些都納管的話這些對應對照回來就會覺得是很難以不可行因為很多是APP而且是在網路層的東西而且很多是國外的東西這個管理上要認定要納管都有實質上的一些困難那另外也補充來點心補充好你先講"},{"start":12188.067,"end":12206.202,"text":"就是說舊有的二類裡頭 二類範圍很廣舊有二類裡頭 包括MVMO 包括等等MVMO我們已經納管 已經回頭納管了那一塊是有在納管還有一些家職服務 他有來登記電信室的那些我們都有在納管當中那今天要討論說IAS並這一塊我們的內部討論意見也認為說贊成要再給他 回過頭來再給他納管"},{"start":12214.028,"end":12232.729,"text":"好謝謝主委主委我想兩個部分第一個是說去年當然七月大家很努力通過所謂的詐欺犯罪違害防治條例的部分就所謂打砸條例嘛那裡面有提到這個所謂的電信業會納管的部分是被認定是電管法第三條我們第一項第一款指的電信事業"},{"start":12233.59,"end":12259.393,"text":"那我今天提的修法版本裡面就是說到底有多少哪些屬於電信事業因為按照現行法令啊MVNO就所謂二類本來的二類電信你們上有列管可是你們納管是你們是請三大業者去做管理耶那我的意思是說為什麼這些所謂二類業者是不能由你們ACC直接管而且如果他沒有被列為所謂電信業者的話他是不是就不屬於這個打詐條例裡面定義的電信事業"},{"start":12261.015,"end":12287.457,"text":"跟委員補充回報第一點那剛剛的那解讀是在我們去年電信號碼管理辦法那個發布之前確實是有些MVMO他不想來他沒有來登記然後他就變成三大業者的企業客戶那這一塊就會有剛剛的情況但是我們去年就已經在執法就已經納管了MVMO這一塊其實已經在納管當中那如果今天委員提案說要把他從執法拉到法律位階這邊我們也贊同"},{"start":12289.523,"end":12313.445,"text":"贊同嗎 贊同好 主委那這樣的話我們就有共識了嘛那我希望這個稍後的討論能夠稍微加速一點因為我真的覺得說這個三大業者也有來討論也有陳情啦就是說今天過去是把MVNO這些所謂二類電信從電信法時代然後現在變成他們本來是去年變成是三大電信要管他們沒有實權他們沒辦法去真正的去管控這些人嘛"},{"start":12315.065,"end":12335.85,"text":"這塊三大業者的疑慮說他怕長臂管理這塊其實我沒有跟他說明過我們最近一次3月20還找他我知道來主委這個我幫他們說明一下因為你是主管機關啊他要你們這樣說他就能這樣做啊所以今天為什麼會有這個修法原因也是因為三大電信也在實務上在執行面上他沒辦法去強迫對方當然最後是罰錢啦可以罰錢沒錯啦但是罰錢是"},{"start":12338.231,"end":12353.234,"text":"他們對這些所謂的二類電信業者他們可能在商業上可以處罰但是政府目前是罰所謂三大電信業者那他們覺得說這個頻寬或這個訊號是由政府提供的然後他們變成代理人的問題"},{"start":12354.255,"end":12370.977,"text":"那他們沒有實際的所謂的不管是行政權也好或者是這個行事權也好他們沒有辦法去要求或者是約束這些業者他們在轉賣出去之後後續不然說詐騙集團或是剛剛稍微也會提到的像黑妹卡等等這些境外業者他要怎麼使用"},{"start":12371.477,"end":12392.539,"text":"所以我覺得這對三大電信業者來講它造成管理上的困難那其實今天我覺得修法核心的目的核心的精神是說把這個所謂的管理權一樣就收回NCC嘛你們本來就要管了只是說以前這段時間是把它委託給三大電信業者管那其實只是把真正的管理權收回政府部門我不知道這件事情NCC支不支持"},{"start":12394.52,"end":12421.953,"text":"第七業者給我的意見應該是在那個MVMO納入執法之前的一些意見後來我們大概都處理之後我們也跟他溝通過其實這邊他們都有共識說只要他有登記定金事業那個責任義務權利義務都會在那個定金事業二類有被納管的二類到時候他登記定金事業他就會有這個義務在身上這部分是當然有共識的所以我們這邊也支持委員就MVMO拉到母法的位階這個我們是支持的"},{"start":12422.335,"end":12443.06,"text":"那個登記不登記是強制的還是他們自主的如果把MVMO拿到母法說要的那都是變成強制的就是母法電信關於法有名列的那都是強制的好主委其實這是我的目的啦因為現在很多是沒有登記的嘛那沒有登記其實就他就不屬於剛剛我提到的所謂電信法犯罪那個什麼那個防打砸條例裡面電信法的這個範圍規範的範圍裡面我們希望這些"},{"start":12447.199,"end":12473.725,"text":"在灰色地帶遊走的業者他們能夠被列入真正電信法能管制的範圍那這樣子對於所謂的打詐我才有辦法執行啊如果他不受這個打詐法規範的話其實我們今天討論的我們今天打詐法通過討論都是正派經營的業者他們有主動來申請他們主動來登記那當然沒有這個問題那今天問題就是說這些被動的還不想不想來登記的但是他同時他一樣可以使用這樣子的功能的業者我們反而管不到吧"},{"start":12475.572,"end":12497.45,"text":"對 文聚的觀點我們是認同就是說 只要符合跟打造有意義打造的 該納管就納管但是也要注意說實務上的有沒有比例原則等等假設說它跟打造相對無關 比方說舊的二類很多在那邊計算更不可能使用的 從語音服務電話那些東西它更不會使用的 那些其實就沒有必要全部的電信服務都納管 都是我們的意見是這樣子"},{"start":12499.572,"end":12524.307,"text":"這個事項我們可以來討論啦但是我希望這個原則上能夠往這方向走好不好主委謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員現在我們請李昆哲委員執行謝謝 召委請一下陳代理主委陳代理主委"},{"start":12530.221,"end":12547.548,"text":"主委你好 有關於電信的簡訊詐騙造成國人重大的財產損失 也讓整個社會生物痛絕那在過去我多次的要求NCC必須要建立客戶確認的機制就是KYC的這樣的一個機制"},{"start":12551.349,"end":12567.404,"text":"那我們看到KYC的這樣的一個機制的運作以去年2024年3月到12月期間已經有超過三萬五千次的門號因為他單日的簡訊發送量異常所以"},{"start":12568.632,"end":12584.778,"text":"被KYC這個客戶確認機制關閉他的簡訊功能但是其中有一萬次的門號他經過重新的查驗後恢復這個有高達28%當然KYC這個客戶確認機制對詐騙集團的這種詐騙的簡訊他的這個有基本防範的一個功能但是"},{"start":12597.262,"end":12611.29,"text":"有超過將近有三成的這樣的一個失誤率那是不是我們這個客戶確認機制的辨識能力啊還需要檢討來主委簡單說明一下好各位報告"},{"start":12612.691,"end":12633.024,"text":"委員這邊秀出來的這張投影片應該是針對個人對個人我們術語叫做P2PP2P的這個簡訊這一塊因為P2P的簡訊基本上是受我們電信電信管理法裡頭包括就是秘密通訊的部分這邊我們比較不能去看他那種因為沒辦法看他那種比較沒辦法設定關鍵字去攔阻"},{"start":12633.624,"end":12654.91,"text":"那我們就用行為管制方式模式來處理比方說剛剛提到的如果他一天超過30則我們就會發關懷簡訊告訴他說要注意或怎麼樣那如果超過50則那他就要回到電信業者那邊重新合資那這合資後就恢復就是他們的權利那如果高達28%"},{"start":12657.051,"end":12679.161,"text":"不代表全部都是涉障因為有些比方說之前有人反映說他是個人他要辦理結婚他會發很多簡訊也會有相對這種問題這個相關的機制除了他的一個辨識能力的提升之外也關係到用戶的申訴或是相關的這種成本壓力的種種挑戰那"},{"start":12680.977,"end":12690.17,"text":"顯示有近三成的這樣一個誤難其實我們也要去思考我們面對這種詐騙的手法它是很快速的演化"},{"start":12690.919,"end":12710.979,"text":"那NCC應該要協助相關的電信業者我們接下來如果去提升這種風險的準確的辨識能力那我們是不是有結合跨業的資料或者是AI的風險模型以及來建立這種全國性的風險的用戶追蹤系統來說明一下"},{"start":12715.479,"end":12737.414,"text":"號碼的部分號碼可以用通話也可以發簡訊號碼部分其實現在我們在打造條例裡頭其實已經有這個機制了簡單來講說如果他被165通報停話或斷話的話那他都是屬於風險比較高的那我們甚至也有這個打造條例的對應二十幾條那邊會有如果他累積三次三次不見得"},{"start":12738.214,"end":12753.17,"text":"是同一家 他可能是中華 可能是台哥或遠專 只要累積三次 那他就構成這個未來三年他只能被拘束 只能擁有一支那一支如果他是現在公司就領有了 那他就不能再申請了所以就我們所謂的三正條款 這個機制有在進行"},{"start":12753.81,"end":12779.155,"text":"那回到剛剛所講的KYC的部分簡訊的部分比較大宗的是商業簡訊商業簡訊這邊我們就可以引入這個商業機制的部分就可以事先去請這個業者來做查核他的內容不可以有網址不可以有電話不可以有短網址連結有的話必須要是有合過的變成白名單的才可以通過否則的話都會攔阻都不會"},{"start":12780.959,"end":12798.733,"text":"主要我們必須更進一步的來探討相關的這種詐騙的門號它的攔阻跟相關的後續作為我們必須來討論一下它的成效我們看到2024年全年的電信業者它總共攔阻了798萬則的詐騙簡訊有922萬這種境外的詐騙來電"},{"start":12807.34,"end":12824.832,"text":"並且停用了2395門的這種涉嫌詐騙的門號但是我必須要來討論我們是否這種技術的攔阻啊它的量有提高但是呢無法觸及這種詐騙行為的轉移就是說我們必須啊"},{"start":12829.582,"end":12835.287,"text":"針對這種攬組的這種總數跟詐騙金額的變化以及產生這種詐騙的案件我們必須要去針對攬組的成效來進行這種交叉的比對分析"},{"start":12847.618,"end":12859.971,"text":"是不是真的能說明啊男主越多詐騙越少但是看起來男主很多但是啊詐騙的這樣的一個狀況還是非常嚴重來主委說明一下好那簡單來講從結果來看因為"},{"start":12863.034,"end":12878.422,"text":"傳統的可信賴的網路的國際來話我們該警示的警示該攔阻的攔阻所以那邊對詐騙警察員那條路已經幾乎是被擋擋得很嚴重所以他已經轉移了跟中文報告委員所提到一樣他轉移到其他路徑轉移到網路轉移到這個網路電話等等"},{"start":12880.183,"end":12901.412,"text":"所以我們原來的防禦措施在在可信賴網路的國際電話也好國內不管是假冒國內的電話那一塊都持續來辦理那新的它轉移到政經那邊我們也加強我們的防禦那比方說網路電話這一塊我們也最近期也會推出一些措施包括攔阻包括一些語音警示等等"},{"start":12901.923,"end":12906.889,"text":"好 主委我要請教一下我們現在有停用2395門的這種詐騙的電話來源那我們有沒有建立這種黑名單的追蹤機制 來說明一下"},{"start":12914.798,"end":12938.734,"text":"詐騙電話剛剛跟委員報過在我們打造條例的三項條款裡頭其實都是有個165的那邊那個資料庫裡頭其實都有建立那各家電信業者還可以進去看說他申請的人他是不是涉障 是的話那他就是高風險客戶就會有一些管制他就這種高風險客戶他有沒有重複開戶的這樣的問題或是假人頭帳號來繼續作案的這樣的狀況我們NCC有查解這樣的情形嗎"},{"start":12943.337,"end":12958.842,"text":"人頭部分是比較難查但是這個涉及到說這個他查的他要查破的技術相對比較高早期的話他可能是我們要求電信業者做好KYC比方說他帶著一堆人去門市去申辦那個"},{"start":12959.842,"end":12975.038,"text":"業者的風控機制就可以過濾到處理的很多那現在他們慢慢也變得比較靈活那這一塊的KYC還是要持續但是說這個效果有在遞減但是我們會採用新的要求電信業者採用新的風控的方式來處理"},{"start":12976.646,"end":13002.286,"text":"我們NCC針對這種KYC的客戶確認機制或是對相關的詐騙的電信簡訊雖然有初步的作為但是成效民眾還是很不滿我們還是有很大的這種檢討跟改進的空間最後的時間我要來請教第一級電信管制設平器材的這樣的一個使用那我們看NCC的說明"},{"start":13003.007,"end":13024.026,"text":"本次新增的第一級電信管制設平器材使用計畫的相關的這個規定那它的原因是第一級的器材它的功率強大而且它的影響範圍非常的廣泛那管理器材必須要嚴格而明確那NCC是否有準備"},{"start":13025.41,"end":13047.107,"text":"足夠的人力資源來因應可能增加的這種申訴或者是行政負荷來說明一下兩點回到第一點第一集的這個像這邊所顯示的最簡單就是像機場或者CIA所在地的一些防止無人機來入侵干擾的需要有電波遮斷器那一塊就是典型的地類"},{"start":13048.548,"end":13073.64,"text":"電信管制生命器材第二個委員提到說我們自己同仁來審核的部分那因為量的增加從過往兩萬多變成一年四萬多那我們也提升規劃朝向類AI或者自動化方式來處理來減輕人力的負擔這塊我們打算編在明年的預算裡頭來處理那目前這樣可以因應相關的這種申訴或者是行政的負荷嗎"},{"start":13074.659,"end":13091.836,"text":"就是勉勵前行我們會持續來來就做同仁辛苦一點那等到我們那個自動化的相對應的軟硬體到位之後可能情況會比較改善必須要加緊相關的作為了是是謝謝委員"},{"start":13104.153,"end":13132.621,"text":"好謝謝我們李坤澤委員現在請邱若驊委員執行謝謝主席好主席有請陳代主委好陳代主委"},{"start":13138.236,"end":13151.993,"text":"主委好 我們今天的會議主要是針對兩項議題進行討論嘛 一個是將干擾無人機訊號等相關設備納入第一設平器材的管理規範那再來是針對電信管理法的審查那本席今天就今天"},{"start":13152.794,"end":13169.194,"text":"所列之審查一案就叫主委本期在去年的10月7日打詐專案報告中曾經就第二類電信業者是否應該由NCC直接管理提出質詢當時是溫柏中副主委備詢我們先來看到法務部的統計資料顯示"},{"start":13171.076,"end":13193.842,"text":"雖然113年的詐騙案件數跟112年比起來略有下降可是還是高於111年的16801件這顯示出詐騙案根本沒有趨緩的還是不斷的在發生那今年的1月至2月全國地方的地檢署他新收到的電信詐騙案呢他的案件數則達到3075件"},{"start":13196.743,"end":13225.081,"text":"根據打詐儀表板來看同期間的詐騙案件數為兩萬三千八百九十三件那詐騙的金額高達一百五十六億兩千七百三十五萬那不管是哪一個單位的數據來看很明顯詐騙依然橫行受害的人還是不斷增加那我們接著看到電信管理法在一百零八年六月二十六日的時候公佈了那當初立法的目的是在於接個原電信法的制度沒錯吧"},{"start":13226.025,"end":13240.344,"text":"是部分接軌它但是也要創造一個讓業者有服務讓整個國家社會有服務創新的一些空間跟動能所以會解除相對跟資訊服務業比較接近那一塊的區塊我們就比較解除列管"},{"start":13241.186,"end":13258.566,"text":"謝謝主委那當時也有要求單位要三年內完成轉軌那隨著轉軌完成那至此第二類的電信業者他不用再向NCC申請那他也不再受到NCC來監理而是改以公司法為主要規範那目前是在經濟部作為主管機關"},{"start":13260.268,"end":13287.195,"text":"所以沒錯吧但是還是會有原來二類還是有持續來登記因為他有些他登記完之後對他的營業會比較有利比方說他要投地方政府的一些標案如果他來登記的話對他而言是一個加分的就目前的登記數是多少就有二類目前登記數是60幾家是60幾家那當時電管法上路108年7月的時候當時的全國第二類電信業者大概有幾家"},{"start":13288.072,"end":13303.219,"text":"就有的是216家216家因為我這邊本席這邊看到是386家108年7月的統計那隨著專會完成目前這些業者他有沒有收到NCCC"},{"start":13303.739,"end":13332.12,"text":"實質的監理跟我們報告我剛剛講是純粹IASP因為二類的範圍很大它裡都有IASP有MVMO也有其他價值服務之前是386家是所有的二類家種我剛剛因為你有提到IASP那本席今天要跟您討論的會是著重在MVMO那我們現在我們看到有386家那轉軌以後大多數他們都沒有登記也不受到實質的查核那這些業者是否現在還在提供VOIP還有簡訊SIM卡等服務"},{"start":13335.147,"end":13354.018,"text":"這邊簡訊信卡的服務其實如果他是做MVML的話他可以兩種身份一個是他用MVMLMVML現在還是有一家業者那如果他是他不想用MVML身份那他就變成三大業者的企客那他現在很多他現在很多都是他目前是第二類電信業者那都有走在監理的邊緣您認為這樣的架構合理嗎"},{"start":13357.219,"end":13373.584,"text":"就是我們在全能說維持社會公益公益打仗也是社會公益之一是我們要全能還有這個業者的創新發展我們在一直在動態的所以既然您提到打仗那電信轉軌制度已經上路那可是第二類的電信業者頻頻捲入詐騙案這是您清楚吧"},{"start":13375.014,"end":13397.565,"text":"原來的這種情況我們知道我們現在看到前年的2月桃園地檢署查獲不效的第二類電信業者與詐騙集團合作都在發送了1193萬封的詐騙簡訊這個數量非常的驚人那不僅如此還有中華電信合作的第二類電信業者涉嫌將民眾的個資外洩以防治安危機那更嚴重的是呢前年4月爆發三家第二類"},{"start":13398.886,"end":13416.984,"text":"的電信業社詐騙案那檢方也查出NCC的前委員也擔任其中一家的業者顧問並且透過他兒子的帳戶每個月收取1500到1600的酬勞那對於這樣的現象第二類電信業者他已經是打詐的破口之一了主委您怎麼看"},{"start":13418.773,"end":13438.951,"text":"就是針對打架部分我們要針對說比較跟打架有關的我們都持續在努力我們去年就已經把他納管了那ISP這次的報告我們也提出我們的看法我們也認同說ISP要適度納管要適度納管那可是目前現在"},{"start":13441.101,"end":13468.496,"text":"所以納管的 您納管的定義是你們有做出什麼樣的管理跟約束比方說FMMO它目前有來登記的在119年轉軌的中間它是7家那電管法施行之後它有7家只要它有來登記它就是電信事業電信事業就會要承擔電信管理法裡頭那去年事業開放電信事業任務號碼管理辦法那您目前掌握到的總共幾家"},{"start":13469.884,"end":13498.144,"text":"如果MVM的話就7家就7家所以他不到10家那這項辦法他有沒有強制力呃有有他有什麼樣的強制力就是說他違反的話因為他是母法授權他違反的話一樣受到電信管理法母法的一些一些罰則注意請教第二類電信業是否一定要向NCC申請看他有沒有符合就我們現在第五條的規定說他要取得一些頻率資源那有申請的才會被NCC視為第二類電信業那沒有申請的叫做什麼"},{"start":13499.707,"end":13517.434,"text":"我們是自願登記的自願登記那沒有申請的呢沒有申請的話廣義上他就是廣義的資訊服務業者沒有申請的是不是叫企業用戶他是不是以企業用戶的身份存在如果他是跟電信業三大合作的話他是他的企業客戶那是誰來做管理"},{"start":13518.47,"end":13538.103,"text":"如果是契克的話那他跟三大之間是有契約關係靠契約關係來約束那目前是不是由第一類的電信業者來做管理MVMO那一塊目前因為他有來登記的話他就是要自己承擔責任義務他自己要承擔責任那請教主委這樣的制度第一類的電信業者有法律上的公權力嗎"},{"start":13541.183,"end":13559.471,"text":"我知道委員要反映說業者反映說有什麼長臂管理這塊是沒有的我們跟他說過好幾次所以我們都知道第一類的電信業者他不具備法律上的公權力那這樣情況下第二類業者他真的會完全配合第一類業者的約束跟管理嗎"},{"start":13561.758,"end":13565.662,"text":"如果您是第二類的電信業者,那當第一類的電信業者向您調閱客戶資料的話,你會不會提供?"},{"start":13582.472,"end":13605.871,"text":"這一部分我們並沒有要求也不在規範你的要求我是說假使如果你是第二類電信業者你會把你的資料交給第一類嗎這一部分應該必須要符合法規法規上不允許的話我是如果是我我是不會你是不會啊那所以你怎麼會覺得那第二類的電信業者他會據實以告所以這一部分我們的執法委員並沒有要求要做這種事情"},{"start":13606.67,"end":13626.724,"text":"所以我們都看到第一類的電信業者來管理來監督自己的潛在競爭者也就是第二類的電信業者你覺得這樣子合理嗎這是他們誤解啦其實他們有一個過例這是不是制度上面的一個漏洞"},{"start":13627.968,"end":13644.266,"text":"我沒有跟他說明過關鍵的動作是檢視其實他只要做到一般的檢查義務我們不是要他做到高階的善良管理人的義務本席最後認為因為有鑑於現在第二類的信業者已經是詐騙案件"},{"start":13645.666,"end":13659.217,"text":"裡面的破口那每次都是第二被查出都是第二類業者的關係那也希望NCC可以重視這個問題那提出具體的改善修法好沒問題我們會努力謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱樂華委員現在請廖先祥委員執行"},{"start":13683.988,"end":13688.075,"text":"好 謝謝主席 也要麻煩我們這個陳代理主委好 陳代主委"},{"start":13693.581,"end":13717.225,"text":"好 戴主委你好 這個昨天啊 這個又有這個相關的演習嘛 軍事的演習那兩岸不斷的衝突對抗當中 我想大家可能會比較擔心 會擔心一點就是如果說真的發生什麼事情衝突的時候那我們國內民眾 因為畢竟通訊是維持社會安定穩定人心非常重要的一個功能嘛"},{"start":13717.805,"end":13745.181,"text":"那如果說兩岸發生衝突的時候我可以預想到可能會有兩個問題嘛第一個就是連外這個外國的網路可能會因此中斷只能可能用這個地軌衛星來做一些必要時的替代第二個是電力的問題因為像這個天然氣船也因為這樣子不敢來台灣就造成台灣電力的問題所以就這兩個部分我來跟助理做一個請教跟討論啦就是假設我們這個台海發生一些問題導致連外的"},{"start":13748.023,"end":13773.079,"text":"電纜發生問題那我們目前使用的一些可能通訊軟體有哪一些他可能是沒有辦法用的簡單來講就是說如果那通訊軟體的他的server是在國外的假設對國外的通訊路徑上已經終止的話那大概是沒辦法用但是他目前業者的部件大概是多路由的都有備援基本上他的韌性會相對比較好"},{"start":13773.519,"end":13799.835,"text":"那也有一些他S7是MIRROR的其實在國內境內都會有一些對應短期內衝擊還不大如果是真的對外完全斷網但是任性的部分部件包括衛星的海欄那邊只要維持住的話其實應該都不會不通就是假設連外的海欄都中斷的情況下那像我們一般的LINE剛剛主委有說如果說他在台灣有使用機房的話"},{"start":13801.296,"end":13824.867,"text":"如果說通訊業者在我們國內有地方的話或許還是可以通訊的那以LINE來講因為LINE是我們台灣最廣泛使用的嘛或者是臉書的Message或者是可能WhatsApp這三家可能是大家最常用的啦那他哪一家他們三家在如果說真的連外網路斷掉的時候那哪一些可能是分別可以用的可能先讓大家民眾心裡有個底這樣子"},{"start":13825.883,"end":13841.297,"text":"直接講結果講到機制如果海欄都斷了還有衛星那衛星的話因為頻寬有限所以大家要搶衛星對那一定是國家優先嘛對國家的訊息優先那這三家就是都斷了情況下這三家通訊軟體有辦法用嗎"},{"start":13843.09,"end":13866.089,"text":"有沒有機房在我們國內國內自己的衛星應該會以這個公共利益的為主就是剛剛委員所講的可能也許是公家機關或者軍方或怎麼樣來為主國安單位為主那如果是國外的衛星但是我要跟主委確認啦就是這三家在我們國內目前是沒有部件機房的所以說聯外中斷的話我們是沒有辦法透過這些通訊軟體去做聯繫的嘛"},{"start":13868.928,"end":13885.472,"text":"理論上是這樣子那有沒有哪一個軟體應該是我們可以推薦給大家是可以用的應該不存在這種我記得我們國家之前不是有推過一個也是通訊軟體嗎什麼挖的還在嗎JokerJoker還在嗎應該還在我想這個我們總是未雨綢繆啦"},{"start":13891.294,"end":13906.353,"text":"那如果只在國內使用當然沒問題就沒問題嘛就另類的intranet一樣所以你們可能要去確認一下如果說真的當聯網網路斷掉的時候我們國內的民眾可能用哪樣子的一個通訊軟體他是有辦法維持我們聯繫功能的包括我們國家可能要發送訊息的時候也是相對"},{"start":13907.054,"end":13929.174,"text":"我希望說我們來盤點一下那後續我們當然是會可能要積極的是不是來爭取這些國外我們大家使用的一個通訊軟體的業者我們在台灣也能夠有相對應的機房能夠維持通訊的一個順暢如果說沒有辦法連到他們的國外的機房的話我覺得這可能是我們必要後續要做的不知道主委認不認同認同"},{"start":13930.635,"end":13949.815,"text":"認同嗎 好 那就麻煩我們的主委那第二個就是當然通訊是一個問題那第二個就是基地還需要電力嘛那電力通訊業者我們就是三大通訊業者佔我們台灣的總體電力的消耗率大概佔比1%而已其實沒有很高 大概1%"},{"start":13950.816,"end":13971.712,"text":"那當然如果說台海發生一些狀況的時候一些天然氣船可能進不來但是我們國家對於天然氣的儲備的天數也是有限的嘛可能第一天沒問題第二天沒問題但是一旦發生這樣的情況政府一定會開始限電主委您瞭解就是我們基地台的一個限電的編組他是在哪一類嗎"},{"start":13973.62,"end":14002.163,"text":"這部分我不清楚應該是台電他們的規劃但是跟委員補充報告兩點如果是短時間的市電市電就是台電供應的市電中斷的話其實我們在基地台那邊有要求業者要做好一些備援的台海被封鎖不可能是幾小時的事我知道你們基地台都有備援電源那這個就是法定有規定幾個小時但一定是我們一定是討論可能幾天幾週或是上月的一個時間所以你們並沒有跟台電了解你們我們的限電邊阻"},{"start":14003.505,"end":14015.062,"text":"我不知道但是我可以確定一點是因為通訊這些都是關鍵都是CI我相信CI通訊的CI算是所有的東西的一個根本應該是優先訊號還蠻高的你後續就跟台電確認一下就是保障我們國內通訊的韌性"},{"start":14019.688,"end":14042.556,"text":"光網路的部件不夠我們要有電基地還要能夠運作那通訊才會順暢嘛那就後續因為我知道台電有分就像之前台灣可能停電的時候都有分誰先停電誰先沒有停電嘛醫院不會停電嘛重要的國防設施不會停電嘛那我們通訊設備會不會被停電我想這是我們NCC可能後續要去了解的那或許是不是也是去爭取一下如果說它的限電編組"},{"start":14044.116,"end":14066.125,"text":"使用電力的流線順序是比較後面的我們是不是要爭取在比較前面一點要確保電力通訊的安全好不好這一點沒問題我們會世界的轉達反應好那就是這兩點那主委這個今天你也站滿久了你休息一下好了謝謝委員謝謝委員那今天我看這個好像法務部次長有來我請教一下次長好了來黃次長黃次長"},{"start":14069.793,"end":14073.048,"text":"因為都沒人去找我們 不好意思沒禮貌 我們的錯"},{"start":14077.653,"end":14105.12,"text":"市長好不好意思今天您來了但我當然要問你跟這個可能今天的這個主題沒有關係但您來就問你法務部的事情因為今天早上有這個相關新聞你非常清楚就是共諜案那有可能被調查然後這個被這個交保的情況嘛那我想確認一下他被交保了嗎我們法務部後續會不會有抗告的行為啊就認為這個危害國家安全重大這個不可以放出來怎麼可以放出來這個案子你了解嗎"},{"start":14106.223,"end":14131.732,"text":"不好意思因為我今天早上很早就過來這邊了那這個是我們檢查機關在辦理那法務部是做法務行政所以對於個案我們都尊重檢查機關的偵辦那是否有抗告我相信檢察官會以法審著作來處理因為我不是很確認今天早上的新聞這個交保是法院裁定的還是檢察官直接命交保的所以這個部分讓我們在我想站在國家安全的角度啦因為最近都有一些這個"},{"start":14134.163,"end":14154.063,"text":"縮壓禁建的新聞嘛譬如違反各自法縮壓禁建就兩件了嘛對不對結果就很多的民眾在質疑怎麼違反國安法然後把機密資料外洩給可能總統所說的敵對私利結果居然交保出來了那大家會擔心你交保出來之後你家還有沒有什麼如果說你平常就有在洩密的一個的習慣的話"},{"start":14155.404,"end":14164.271,"text":"那你家裡有沒有藏一些機密平常就把一些政府的一些公文重要的文書copy在家裡那你出來的時候你還是有些什麼的可能啊"},{"start":14165.097,"end":14188.029,"text":"我想這一些都是相關的案情那具體個案的狀況都不一樣好不好 我就請我們的次長站在保護國家安全的情況下審慎的來檢視這個案件啦那檢視我們再提出抗告說要的必要以保障我們國家的機密的資訊有任何外洩的可能好 謝謝我們會回答相關的檢查單位 謝謝謝謝廖先祥委員"},{"start":14195.216,"end":14219.822,"text":"那接下來由鍾嘉賓委員執行主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關司法官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們陳代理主委MCC還有蘇發部的林次長蘇衛部林次長"},{"start":14225.595,"end":14248.126,"text":"主委好 次長好今天我們來談防制詐騙而少性剝削要有效那麼新型態的電信事業業者要納管好我們先看最近的新聞兩位知不知道這個京城資訊這是知府的龍頭出現資安就過去這兩天的大新聞有四萬家企業包括航空跟金融而這個企業這個京城是台灣大哥大"},{"start":14249.146,"end":14261.411,"text":"他已經要跟他合作要瞄準中央部會還有醫療會那個醫療業那還有跟多家的第三方支付整合請問兩位你們是不是有掌握本案對於政府部門和關鍵機構設施的影響先請次長"},{"start":14264.552,"end":14291.258,"text":"跟委員報告依照我們現在資安署所掌握到的訊息就是資安署主要是要保護政府機構以及關鍵基礎設施的資安目前我們政府跟關鍵基礎設施並沒有收到這一波的資安攻擊的影響這是第一部分我們掌握到第二部分就是說這次的資安攻擊應該是來自於一個駭客組織叫Crazy Hunter"},{"start":14291.718,"end":14319.298,"text":"Crazy Hunter就是之前攻擊我們兩家大型醫院的同一個駭客組織是然後他們的成員之中至少有一位是中國籍的事實上昨天刑事警察局已經起訴了一位在中國浙江的一位羅姓的工程師我們認為說好 政府就在嚴辦嘛是 但是他人可能就在中國好 那請問一下我們很擔心會不會後來出現暗網出現出售各自的情況"},{"start":14321.034,"end":14347.134,"text":"這個目前我們並沒有掌握到這個訊息我們希望不要出現這種情況好來接下來來往下看所謂的電信事業用戶號碼的使用管理辦法這是在去年的4月通知團會就說了我們要訂出這個辦法那其中就要把所謂的虛擬行動網路服務就是剛剛很多委員關係的MVNO要納入責成電信事業要加強管理請問代理主委"},{"start":14348.191,"end":14369.162,"text":"所謂的責成電信事業要加強管理是責成哪個電信事業一類的是不是這邊用語是一類沒錯是一類沒錯嘛好我們看一下根據這個你們就定根據了電管法的第69條你們定了一個管理辦法然後它的法則呢要回歸到電管法的83條沒錯吧是所以裁罰是裁罰一類業者吧"},{"start":14370.971,"end":14398.619,"text":"如果他是他的企科但是如果他登記電視業就是採訪他MVMO業者我可以採訪到MVMO業者因為他登記電視業他如果登記的話好往下看好往下看那這次的修法呢我們是針對呢剛剛說的齁這裡面所提到的所謂的批發轉售啊你這裡呢不能夠再轉再做其他的批發轉售是不是這樣對他這是第一條那請問一下目前經營虛擬行動網路服務業者有沒有納入"},{"start":14399.554,"end":14418.645,"text":"目前有居家有來登記好 那麼轉售跟使用智慧虛擬碼或者是物聯網號碼以外的用戶號碼有沒有納入這邊是在我們號碼權管理法裡有規範有規範 好那麼像所謂的黑美卡就是銷售境外事業所提供的語音及數據等公共服務的有沒有納入"},{"start":14419.858,"end":14431.156,"text":"黑莓卡他是用國外的電話嘛他來國內只是漫遊那最快我們在打造條例的時候很好 你講到打造條例馬上看打造條例打造條例第14條他主要目的是"},{"start":14432.12,"end":14456.936,"text":"預防阻止要做合理的對應措施對不對16條如果對於轉讓的話我們可以限制或停止這都指一類業者他有辦法這樣做第20條是指國際漫遊服務就剛剛講的黑莓卡那麼我們必須確認他們是出境或與其拘留如果有資料不實或異常使用剛剛提到了異常使用就會處理請問這幾條是否包含了這裡的電信是不是就是說從事的用戶號碼批發轉售服務的電信業者"},{"start":14460.575,"end":14489.478,"text":"他來登記的話他就是適用就一類好那麼如果他違反了這樣的這個炸房條例那是不是就依法依炸房條例來罰還是依電管法來罰打掉條例本身他是有罰則應該就依好那我們再往下看好那現在呢你們現在的這個管理辦法訂的這個管理辦法呢第十條這個業者本身他要去做實地的仿事對不對你覺得一類業者有辦法對他的下手做實地仿事嗎"},{"start":14490.411,"end":14515.195,"text":"這邊我有跟大家解釋過他是做那個一般性的書面就是相對於跟類似類似刑事檢查都是一般性的一般性的嘛對不對好既然是一般性的刑事檢查他有辦法去察覺或確認異常使用啊有沒有在做批發轉售啊有辦法察覺嗎那個在我們這個執法的立法說明有提到是技術可行的情況之下技術可行才可以那如果他沒有辦法做得到"},{"start":14516.741,"end":14544.373,"text":"限制或終止合約他只能用限制跟終止合約嘛他沒有公權力嘛是不是這樣往下一個是所以目前你們的法律給要求的這個業者所謂的一類業者他沒有公權力所以他如何去落實執行稽查我們那稽查其實並不是公權就是我們要他做一般的對要他做嘛一般的檢查一規一規好就是KYO嘛那那請問有責無權那他怎麼你們怎麼去落實這個裁法"},{"start":14546.94,"end":14567.426,"text":"就是說如果他有登記電信事業的話我們就會罰MVMO業者不會罰這個提供號碼提供號碼給他的或者評論號碼給他的那個三大業者所以呢我最後就是要請你們具體的告訴我們如果要確實執行納管提供電信服務業者有下列行為的時候包括說第一"},{"start":14568.626,"end":14588.795,"text":"他透過這個MENO或者是轉售或者是說銷售境外那你們有沒有辦法去執行根據這三種樣態提出一個報告說明好不好怎麼去切實執行當然如果你們覺得有困難的或者技術上不可行的也一併說明可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝次長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員現在請張祺凱委員執行"},{"start":14615.755,"end":14616.136,"text":"陳代主委"},{"start":14625.561,"end":14637.658,"text":"主委今天很多人關心這750年之亂我看你上來回答的時候前後不大一樣你要不要看看你的左腳有沒有踩到右腳一開始有立委問你說這750年之亂"},{"start":14642.421,"end":14653.391,"text":"不只是緩爭啊可能一年後就就往這個不爭的方向你講對嘛對不對各位的報告那是因為當初我們正在要報財政部函還沒回覆之前我們不能把話講太滿"},{"start":14655.712,"end":14681.288,"text":"對啊我說立委這樣問你 你說往這方向嘛後來又有立委問你啊你說修完之後可能一年後要增你沒發現你這左腳踩到右腳前後是不一的沒有 就是我們講說符合最大主流名義方式現在最大主流名義方式是不收那就是我們的主要最大主流名義不收所以是往不收的就是不收的嘛那可是你現在看起來是修完掉成以後一年後要再增啊不是 就是我們會"},{"start":14682.429,"end":14700.18,"text":"一年期間是停政一年面穩會完成修法修法會以最大主流民意方向為考量那因為修法是涉及到NCC委員會議那NCC是何意志我不能把我一個人的意見當作NCC的意見所以你提到說最大的民意最大的民意現在就是"},{"start":14701.201,"end":14721.253,"text":"不收嘛對不對是不是你目前的理解跟你今天在立法院講的就是不收嘛是不是對沒錯來我給你看我得到訊息好像不是這樣啊來我們來看公文你們給了財政部發函財政部給你的文啊他的文的重點是什麼來我們看一下"},{"start":14723.675,"end":14749.514,"text":"緩徵一年緩徵的理由是你這一年要做什麼辦理業務宣傳財政部還特別提醒你喔你停徵期滿之後要立即恢復收起該項審查費如果叫你去歐約公文叫財政部給你這個函那你今天應該很明確跟民眾講啊你這個停徵是只有一年就是明年的2月5號就開始要重新"},{"start":14750.663,"end":14776.15,"text":"正說嘛 是不是這樣 如果照公文來看是不是這樣公文報告 兩點補充 第一點一般理業宣導那是扣合規範法12條的文字 我們必須要符合它第二個 這個停政一年 我們是停政一年之內我們會來做法規檢討 就是收費辦法的檢討那如果字不記 假設一年內法規檢討沒有辦法完成的話我們還可以再跟產政部再申請展言"},{"start":14777.452,"end":14799.373,"text":"那你要早一點給他 給他知道啊那更重要的 沒有沒有 我們要做幾個我們是法治國家嘛 做幾件事情第一個齁 來來 我做一個三個非常具體的這個第一個 你們現在 今天為什麼要討論這個因為你給我們立法院一個被查案嘛 對不對是被查案你要撤回去啊對不對 對不對你不撤今天我們也會退回去是不是這樣 法治國家應該這樣處理嘛"},{"start":14800.287,"end":14822.936,"text":"你都不爭了啊那你現在還送了一個立法院來叫你備查對不對這是法源這個要先拿掉對不對這是累累對不對第二個你要檢討我先我看了一下你是2月12號就給財政部穩財政部在14號就給你了耶他說很快喔他跟你一樣他也很尊重民意啊可是你們這個公文的往返公文上面呈現的就是一年後是要再爭的你跟民眾的傳達信息"},{"start":14824.477,"end":14851.85,"text":"所以我說第一件事情先把你的查詐案撤回去這是第一件事情第二個要跟財政部講我不是一年要收喔你不要跟民進黨說喔我們現在你講有最大名義是往不收嘛對不對好不好今天很明確喔好不好剛剛跟委員報告講因為呢財政部還沒回函之前我們必須要用比較相對比較寬鬆的一些字眼那財政部同意我們停政一年我們會在一年內來修那個收費辦法"},{"start":14853.731,"end":14879.792,"text":"只要把所有的辦法修回這個假設啦假設修為免徵的情況之下我們也不會再跟財政部再申請一個展延所以這一年內是說我們取得這個時間能夠處理掉這個問題好啦 你現在強調最大民意嘛那像最新的民意也是就是不曾往這邊走所有的三個要求都很明確啦你再看一下喔除了第二點我剛剛講你趕快撤回撤回你這個被查這個案子沒有的話我們今天我相信今天的會議應該也會決定退回啦這個應該會達成"},{"start":14882.754,"end":14908.604,"text":"那第二個你要撤回你這個收費案的時候你要重新檢討當然最好就是不收了嘛那至少你要做到一點要取消用智慧的那一塊那部分我剛剛看你們有在談這一塊嘛對不對能不能做一個言論就至少在智慧的這一塊盡量不要收好不好好盡量不要收那第三個你趕快跟財政部發一個函另外我要提醒你們在檢討一個重點你知道那幾天為什麼明年春天很多人很想去"},{"start":14910.728,"end":14930.757,"text":"他們氣啊 他們說 你去拿我這七寶石塊要做什麼你們NCC的講法是說 要拿來做什麼 水電啦開會的人事會啦 自動辨識系統的建置還有一項 引起最大反彈 訴訟會你拿我人民的錢 說我們人民的錢 跟人民打官司那時候整個是雜鍋了嘛"},{"start":14932.501,"end":14945.776,"text":"跟我們報告當時確實是有一件以自由民意來進口然後我們跟他有訴訟確實當時是有個案是真實的個案所以你拿我們人民的收費的錢去跟人民打官司更重要你官司常常都打輸對不對"},{"start":14948.607,"end":14975.741,"text":"常常打輸 常常打輸的同時最重要 我覺得民眾現在的反感是在你拿我們的錢去打訴訟所以你們如果真的要修 至少把訴訟會這個拿掉 好不好好 把這個訴訟會拿掉另外 我用比較簡短的時間問一個最近大家很關心的就是民視啊 用這個AI製作這個緬甸地震這個事情我看你們發了三點聲明嘛我看不只沒有告誡跟勸告耶 那好像很溫柔的提醒而已"},{"start":14980.552,"end":15002.708,"text":"我看今天沒有時間沒有時間看這個這個你要看過這個他這個影片嘛對不對所有有看過吧對不對我相信再說應該很多因為這個很聳動這個為什麼要處理一個AI是一個這個製作是一個新的新的一個技術那電視台到底要不要用這個本來就是好好要去要去討論跟規範的第二更重要的單純就這個事情你看以AI合成這個照片"},{"start":15004.143,"end":15013.985,"text":"觸目驚心啊 他跟你講啊用AI合成 這個照片是什麼觸目驚心 整排的高樓幾乎全部都倒了道路像是被撕裂 你看這個會造成恐慌"},{"start":15018.319,"end":15036.068,"text":"這個個案我們已經請該家業者來做意見陳述那後續我們會照我們的標準程序來處理那至於通案上的這個廣電世界運用AI部分我們也目前正在嚴厲應用指引我們希望能盡快把這個指引出來然後讓各家媒體來參與用"},{"start":15040.13,"end":15063.412,"text":"現階段就是他們要有這個落實他們自己的事實查證跟他們內部的內控的自律機制那這邊我有強調說要他必須要做好這個自律的方面的一些相關該揭示就揭示電視影響力很大嘛那這個事情為什麼這麼重要因為它合成這個畫面非常觸目驚心會不會引起恐慌我們有些台灣人還在緬甸耶"},{"start":15065.293,"end":15091.894,"text":"昨天不是一個新聞嗎一個受傷我們臺灣的負責不幸不幸往生了嘛 對不對第一個我們臺灣跟緬甸都是在同樣的一塊OAR大陸這個板塊上面所以這個新聞基本上是引起了一部分這個恐慌而且它是一個假新聞所以它是要處理的好 那我提出我的具體的處理方式我來自媒體嘛我去調了一下你們在一百一一一零零六次這個委員會議的這個紀錄啊"},{"start":15094.304,"end":15118.001,"text":"談到民事的時候你們要求他們要聘請兩位專職的編審兩到三位嘛 對不對那個編審都是很大勞啦就當過裁判主任啦 或者總編輯才能夠當編審的我記得這個決定是好的那現在我就很明確的要求你要去問民事問清楚他的編制有沒有落實因為你要求他"},{"start":15119.065,"end":15140.762,"text":"做完這個決定之後的次日期的三個月他就要配備嘛第一個有沒有做到有沒有拚第二更重要的你找了一個大牢有這個鞭治啊你要讓他發揮功能嘛要尊敬人家嘛所以像這樣一個為什麼會出現這樣一個錯誤的假新聞引起大家恐慌的請鞭審能夠發揮他的功能好不好請他發揮功能另外我們就法論法嘛我們來看這個新聞既然出了問題從法律上去看"},{"start":15151.736,"end":15173.074,"text":"廣電法第27條第三項的第一款違反法律強制或禁止規定涉違法的六十三之一第五條這個散佈謠言這個假新聞是不是有類似這樣的性質他連罰則都是有的第三項的第四款自播新聞違反事實的查證的這個原則"},{"start":15176.054,"end":15201.347,"text":"各位報告我們這塊處理必須要前後一致我們過往這方面的處理都要上委員會議目前我們沒有委員會議所以這邊程序上我們必須要跟過往的我們過往的作為必須會拘束到我們自己所以這邊的裁罰案所以你就該罵嘛你在講說現在沒有委員沒有足夠的委員可以上禮拜林國成林委問你還說你要趕快去反映啊你看一下這個法令的規定我們已經修法通過啦修法通過啦"},{"start":15204.929,"end":15208.533,"text":"我們在去年的7月16號修正第4條11月15號修正的第16條12月1號已經正式實施了明定三個月內要補足"},{"start":15219.079,"end":15240.102,"text":"補足是什麼時候 今年的3月1號 會不會四月了 過一個月了之前在行政院啊 行政院要提名對不對 你是代理主委你要趕快去提醒啊你這不是失職了嗎 各位報告 台灣民主黨有提一個案子我們就是有那個程序 我們已經報到院裡頭去了 所以院裡頭應該知道"},{"start":15240.839,"end":15247.836,"text":"所以你去提醒 那真正失職的在行政院院長記不提醒嘛 你看你的業務 你剛講到你說你要裁罰 要討論 委員都沒辦法開"},{"start":15250.993,"end":15273.405,"text":"立法院明定的你要趕快補提名時間都過了好不好不要讓院長繼續失職下去好 謝謝委員那民視這個事情我剛講的讓大佬讓那些邊省可以發揮應有的功能請他們要去注意不要再發生假的新聞或者驚悚的新聞這對人民是不好的第二 該有的罰者要罰你不能雙標"},{"start":15275.906,"end":15291.35,"text":"沒有我們中天如果發生在中天要關台關一次我們過往做的程序上要上委員會這邊我們必須要做一致的處理所以你是要等委員會OK那就不要讓院長這句事趕快提醒他趕快提名好不好好謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員現在請王宏威委員執行"},{"start":15303.547,"end":15309.48,"text":"好謝謝主席我先請我們NCC的主委陳代主委"},{"start":15313.376,"end":15338.729,"text":"主委剛才就是您有答應委員會就是有關於我們電信管制射頻器材的規費收費標準在自用第二級電信管制射頻器材輸入核准審查費每件750元這個是要把它廢掉我們會朝修正方向來處理修正就是把這一欄拿掉目前最大主任名義是免收"},{"start":15339.417,"end":15355.345,"text":"免收但是我要提醒主委在之前今年的2月份我在總質詢的時候那時候你站在我們的卓院長旁邊當時我就在問這750塊錢是亂當時你就說會停徵會停徵那時候院長也覺得這是不妥的"},{"start":15365.066,"end":15375.378,"text":"但是沒想到呢在總質詢之後你們NCC就發新聞稿然後呢就加了一個尾巴說停偵一年停偵一年那時候我就很納悶而且我覺得在堂堂的議場之上的總質詢本來說停偵"},{"start":15384.369,"end":15405.319,"text":"下來之後 變成新聞稿 就變成停真一年 只停真一年所以我想請問一下 你今天會廢止是指廢止一年嗎 還廢止兩年 還是就是廢止要講清楚啊 不要等到今天的委員會結束之後你覺得反正你那個挨過委員會之後 回去又我刑我訴"},{"start":15406.496,"end":15424.025,"text":"好跟我們回報第一點我們當時2月25會當時在院會回答委員的之所以會這麼講是因為第一個時間關係第二個我當時委員要求我們當天要發信用稿我們信用稿是扣活著2月14財政部的回函他是同意我們停政一年"},{"start":15424.665,"end":15439.723,"text":"當時你告訴我要停徵啊所以我就說我們應該要留下白紙黑字不要到時候你又沒有再做結果呢你發了新聞稿變成停徵一年所以我要講的我們NCC這個信用會打折扣的所以你這今天的委員會"},{"start":15441.892,"end":15454.827,"text":"就是承諾委員會的事情你就要說到做到好不好停徵就停徵停徵一年跟停徵一年跟停徵跟停徵一年不一樣好嗎我們會在停徵一年期間會完成法規修正"},{"start":15456.383,"end":15485.36,"text":"之後你應該之前吧不然的話你提針 要針啊對不對一年內我們會把它完整就是要聽針了啦另外請教一下這個過去也有委員在提到的就是你們現在因為我們現在在發展無人機但無人機並不是只有國防的使用它還有很多其他的用途民用的部分通訊用的部分甚至農業等等之類的"},{"start":15486.34,"end":15505.234,"text":"那麼現在呢因為在無人機上要佈建雷達一下要收幾千萬的這個規費所以這個會影響我們整個無人機產業的一個發展所以我想請問NCC你們還要收這麼多的錢嗎不會影響我們無人機的佈建不會影響這些所謂的關鍵基礎設施嗎"},{"start":15511.357,"end":15537.538,"text":"好 謝謝委員給我機會來澄清這個應該是報導有誤基本上它應該是平均使用費然後呢我跟委員報告NCC所主管的這個網路審查費電台審查費審驗費執照費全部加起來也不過9200然後這個如果它是用雷達它定位屬於專用電信的電台它大概平均使用費會比較貴所以是數位過了再收是嗎"},{"start":15538.038,"end":15554.621,"text":"但是跟委員報告因為像事業不成立之前是我的主管我相對清楚那以前在桃園機上不是啊你一個人要收多少錢因為我時間有限他可以收0塊錢因為他收的辦法第2條規定說暴行政院符合公共利益是免收"},{"start":15555.382,"end":15581.829,"text":"你現在所謂符合公共利益是哪一些呢你準備要哪一些除了因為你現在本來是軍用的免收嘛那但是我跟你講有八大關鍵基礎設施不是只有軍用喔還有交通的啊還有水資源的啊還金融啊什麼還高科技等等能源的我想請問一下是不是只要你符合這些關鍵基礎設施的無人機部件雷達通通可以免收是不是"},{"start":15583.26,"end":15601.502,"text":"因為現在權責在數位部好來正好數位部來時間暫停一下來正式對趕快來回答一下如果NC都這麼大方他免收他說他將近收一萬塊而已他可以免收那問題是其他的部分你們再收費的部分呢"},{"start":15602.931,"end":15624.156,"text":"跟主委報告因為這個目前並沒有收到那個業者的申請那因為這個無人機的部分他有雷達的部分也有干擾那個干擾槍的部分那他到底要用哪樣什麼樣的頻率我們並沒有具體的這個資料申請資料所以我們現在很難回答你們現在應該什麼收費因為按照現在電信管理法你們只能按電台收費啊"},{"start":15625.414,"end":15635.783,"text":"是 可不可以委員請我們資源司司長幫忙回答趕快具體回答 跟委員報告因為主要是第一個他設的就是寬頻雷達其實寬頻雷達的頻段裡面有涵蓋既有的行動通信的頻段所以如果是一般人來申請的話他其實有嚴重干擾既有通信的之餘所以這個部分我們會審慎來去審查他建置的費用"},{"start":15654.638,"end":15682.524,"text":"如果照我們目前看到有些業者的話他使用的頻寬很寬的話可能會到上達數千萬數千萬對好那因為呢我剛剛講這八大關鍵的基礎設施他們應該都會達數千萬所以因為像剛才NC說只要符合公益性或者是這個關鍵基礎設施因為過去是軍用的部分可以免收那我想請問一下那麼你們以速發部的部分"},{"start":15683.544,"end":15704.954,"text":"符合八大關鍵基礎設施還是要收嗎還是可以免收這個我們如果是關鍵基礎設施的主管機關然後評估確有限制的這個需求的話那這個部分我們由關鍵基礎設施的這個主管機關然後提出我現在具體的提出這個要求和建議"},{"start":15705.914,"end":15734.173,"text":"因為如果無人機的發展是國家的一個政策不管是產業還有我們作為關鍵基礎設施但是呢我們現在電信管理法它的法並不完備那麼它都要適用於電台所以使得它的規費收費標準變得很高變得很高當然我們現在有一些是商用的完全的商用性的那但是有這個屬於關鍵基礎設施的所以你們就應該把它去做釐清"},{"start":15735.114,"end":15754.547,"text":"好不好因為現在看起來聽你們的回答我覺得還是比較模糊的因為時間有限我想可不可以請我們的NCC和我們的述發部針對我關心的這公領運的部分跟你們補充報告我們大概上次交通委員會已經有委員提這個我們今天下午大概就會開會這兩個部會來協調來確認這個後續相關的一些怎麼處理下午就會開會你們今天下午開會會有結論嗎"},{"start":15763.841,"end":15787.899,"text":"應該會確定一些原則你們如果有一些結論的話也趕快這樣提供給外界也提供給我們那個委員會還有我們辦公室好嗎好可以吧好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王宏威委員接下來蔓依貞委員提出書面的執行所以現在我們請游浩委員執行"},{"start":15796.218,"end":15811.77,"text":"呃謝謝主席那要有請就是陳主委好陳代主委那也再接著也有請我們說話部的次長好那個林次長次長竹山也幫忙難度很多啊那"},{"start":15813.212,"end":15823.761,"text":"剛才在延續紅衛委員所質詢的內容那這750之亂那當然說我們也看到NCC確實也要做停偵那時候我記得是紅衛委員第一時間就開了記者會來幫我們民眾的心聲反映出這個問題"},{"start":15830.706,"end":15854.187,"text":"那當然說那時候有提到說包括廖宣祥文有提到不應該八三成批嘛那包括不管是原本海關的這個費用包括兩千塊以上的費用還有包括這個再收一次審查費那當然說目前來講也做一個停徵的動作那停徵一年那本席還是希望說未來的話這個相關法會在盡快修訂完之後那就是確定停徵"},{"start":15855.228,"end":15881.991,"text":"那接著的話就是剛才廖先祥委員在質詢的時候其實有給我們大家辦公室有很大的一個啟發因為民眾現在可能會很關心一些問題那這可能有些需要請事發布補充那就像目前來講先姑且不論賴清的總統他在發表言論之後造成這個台海的局勢算是嚴重的升溫那現在我們也看到這相關的軍演不管是"},{"start":15882.851,"end":15907.907,"text":"陸防那邊或是我國國軍的部分在軍演的這個部分那也都可以看得出來在民眾對於這個兩岸如果發生戰事的時候感到擔憂那同樣的在氣象署他也在前兩天也有特別警示說假如發生大地震的話也請民眾在就是這兩週也要密切來注意那所以說這回歸到許多民眾就開始擔心"},{"start":15908.607,"end":15921.922,"text":"那在NCC他管理我們國內的三大電信業者那在目前來講假如發生戰事或發生這個重大災難的時候啊那目前的通訊有沒有什麼預備方案"},{"start":15923.7,"end":15937.847,"text":"我們平時會要求他做這個多路由的一些備援備份做好加強他的韌性強度然後業者也做有很多一些替代方案的就比方說他過往的路由可能都不只一條會有兩條"},{"start":15938.928,"end":15952.343,"text":"那行網部分它會有一些 假設某個記憶檯失效了它會把周邊的記憶檯做一些來協力 可能加大一些功力來處理那目前這一塊的處理是這樣子"},{"start":15953.945,"end":15973.816,"text":"那我當然是能夠理解說好那目前基地台加大功率或是能夠互相互補或是能夠擴大範圍但是如果假如是發生戰事的時候局部區包括基地台如果被摧毀的時候假如啦那因為我們大家必須防範未來因為民眾確實也擔憂那像這樣子來講的話包括正常的通訊還能夠維持嗎因為如果是地面上的"},{"start":15979.036,"end":15991.79,"text":"掛掉了假設海欄又掛掉那怎麼靠衛星衛星的頻寬有限到時候就是搶頻寬資源但是搶頻寬資源必須基於國家安全會用國家安全相關單位會優先使用那對啊所以說民眾到時候是沒有網路可以用"},{"start":15993.451,"end":16016.891,"text":"我知道數位部有佈建一些700多次店但是也是主要是公益使用我根本請數位部來補充好那沒關係我先接著問好了那這樣子目前來講像我們現在都送這種iPhone的手機啊那這種的話都是無線的也必須要就是比方以前大家都會用耳機那這樣子假如暫時的時候沒有通訊的時候那這種Apple的這種手機還能夠聽廣播嗎"},{"start":16020.765,"end":16047.095,"text":"早期很多手機都有內建這個收聽FMFM現在比較少必須要選擇購買的時候必須要看一下它貴個行李裡頭有沒有含這項功能沒有的話大概就沒有那所以說假如這個到那種情況的時候那原則上大家說手機不能通不能夠使用的時候大家必須要聽廣播但是現在的大家許多的新手機來講可能因為沒有網路沒有訊號所以也沒辦法聽廣播沒有錯吧"},{"start":16047.935,"end":16076.698,"text":"所以一般一些緊急救護包裡頭會有一個收音機這種設計的原因大概也是在這邊所以你還是希望說大家去準備這個緊急的一個急難包它裡面要有收音機嗎就是看每個人的取捨啦但是這個資訊可以讓大家都知道像一些緊急的地震什麼救難包裡頭大概都會有手電筒啊收音機啊這些"},{"start":16077.418,"end":16104.227,"text":"因為我們現在來講不僅是怕有戰事發生那同樣的我們也會擔心說會不會有大地震嘛那所以這些東西都是大家平常需要去做防範未然嘛那再來我要接著問像4年60億的這個災難漫遊計畫那時候是主要是針對這個戰爭通訊我們現在來講可能也會擔心會不會有大型的這種天災地震因為畢竟我們氣象署也提出警示那這樣子的一個計畫目前實施進度為何"},{"start":16106.242,"end":16131.775,"text":"跟委員報告如果台灣發生重大的天災或者是區域衝突的時候我們速發部主要是要在網路通訊上面一方面要確保台灣能對外通聯另外一個是我們要確保台灣內部能通聯那對外能通聯的話我們主要就是透過衛星還有微波還有那個光纖海嵐的備援我們盡量做備援避免被光纖海嵐被切斷"},{"start":16132.475,"end":16156.015,"text":"然後對內來講的話我們第一個就是說又分成兩個部分來做第一個就是我們確定說我們這個基地台有電力的供應那這個當然需要那個台電等那個就是他們來幫忙那另外一個就是我們在那個手機要使用的話必須有所謂的合網就是那個三大像那個中華電信台灣大各大還有那個"},{"start":16157.816,"end":16182.008,"text":"遠傳電性的那個機房萬一他們機房被破壞或者是因為地震會摧毀的時候我們就是有一個機制就是他們可以互相備援譬如說其中有一家他的機房壞掉了那我們的所有的手機就可以緊急的轉換到其他兩家的那個機房的合網設施去使用所以目前來講假如發生這種特殊情況的時候三家電信業者的機台是可以互相來做備援的"},{"start":16182.228,"end":16207.837,"text":"是我們之前提出的預算就是有一些就是要做這方面的工作那如果說那回頭來講我再接著請教NCC代理主委就是如果說像假如發生這種天災或是戰禍的這種情況之下民眾要如何接收消息除了廣播之外電視的時候還能看嗎還收得到嗎還是就必須要透過什麼樣的形式來接收到相關的疏散的或是救難的訊息"},{"start":16209.156,"end":16232.833,"text":"無線電視只要它有電源的話應該還是收容到但是前提是要無線電視的那個轉播站台沒有被破壞還存在但是相對的它的架台也會相對是比較有機會還是存在但是廣播會比較更快因為廣播它的架設時間成本都比較門檻比較低比較容易架設"},{"start":16234.315,"end":16243.768,"text":"那所以到時候像是電視的部分原廠也比較沒有辦法接收到訊息了嗎只要他發射站轉播站都還在都一樣可以接收一樣可以收得到"},{"start":16244.502,"end":16272.009,"text":"好OK那好那我就接著希望說台灣無災啦那也希望說目前來講台灣的局勢能夠降溫啦那但是我們更要讓民眾能夠藉由這樣子的提醒內容來如果說有任何的天災的時候大家要如何反反未然嘛那我想最後再請主委這邊再補充一下如果說除了像是就是廣播的那個收音機之外還有什麼要給大家做提醒的"},{"start":16272.874,"end":16294.349,"text":"我相信這個相關的部會應該有在盤點應該是內政部他現在最近都有做一些相關的一些一些宣導宣告我相信那邊應該都會有即便是平時的這個天災颱風等等那些都消防署消防單位都會有這些這些宣導"},{"start":16295.407,"end":16318.522,"text":"那我還是希望說在NCC這裡面還是要扮演角色啦因為畢竟管理三大電信業者的話那這個責任也是不管是任何的一個突發狀況緊急的一個情況的時候那還是希望能夠跟三大業者去做協調因為畢竟就是如果大家保持一個良好的通訊那相信很多事情來講就比較傷害跟混亂可以造成最低啦"},{"start":16319.23,"end":16326.238,"text":"會的 我們會要求第三大業者持續精進他的網路服務好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝游浩委員現在請鄭天才委員執行"},{"start":16346.682,"end":16364.594,"text":"主席 各位委員有請國家通訊傳播委員會陳主委好 陳代主委還有數位發展部林次長好 數位部林次長大家辛苦了"},{"start":16367.689,"end":16394.419,"text":"這個天下雜誌在2023年的一個報導這個台灣為以開發國家備詐金額最高的國家以網路電信這方面的一個詐騙然後這個監察院在去年也通過了政府防制電信網路詐欺這個是相關的這些詐欺案"},{"start":16395.311,"end":16420.972,"text":"嚴重這個非常的也提出這個相關的對策跟檢討這裡面特別提到詐騙國安危機全國招詐500億這樣的一個非常嚴重所以相關這些當然打詐司法也通過了但是並沒有遏止這些詐騙的這個案件"},{"start":16424.757,"end":16452.339,"text":"近五年詐欺案件不斷的升高剛提到去年502.5億所以這裡面相關這樣的一個案例層出不窮所以先請教國家通訊傳播委員會到底政府有什麼樣的救年NCC有什麼樣的因應措施"},{"start":16452.802,"end":16466.941,"text":"是的跟各位報告政府是這個團隊的合作施炸、堵炸、防炸、堵炸、懲炸是由五個部會來處理NCC是負責堵炸這一塊我們主要是攔阻這個"},{"start":16469.764,"end":16494.819,"text":"異常的電話還有跟簡訊那電話部分大概這邊的成效大概都已經出來所以他都轉移到其他地方簡訊部分特別是商業簡訊這邊我們大概去年9月10月開始推以來那目前的成效大概去年10月到今年1月件數被通報165通報件數都是零但是他大概就轉移到比較偏網路那一塊那這邊我們都會持續協同相關部會來努力"},{"start":16495.699,"end":16521.364,"text":"這個主詐這是最重要的怎麼樣讓這個人民不要受到這個詐騙所以這個主詐很重要所以這個部分這個要去持續的繼續的去加強你剛剛說有這個成效書面的資料提供好沒問題那個數位發展部你們有什麼樣因應的"},{"start":16521.784,"end":16550.95,"text":"是 在反詐方面數位發展部的職責主要是要避免民眾在Facebook Google以及Line這樣的社群平台上面被騙到一個私訊裡面通常詐騙集團它事實上是有一個產業鏈的剛開始會在Facebook Google或者是Twitter上面講說我是謝金河我賺了很多錢希望你加入我的群組這個時候他就把人騙到一個"},{"start":16551.71,"end":16579.134,"text":"那個小房間裡面那我們速發布就是要避免民眾被騙進去那我們的具體作為有分成兩部分第一個是法律方面法律方面我們非常感謝那個立法院在去年我們通過了打詐專法那從今年的1月開始不管是Facebook Line或者是在Google上面所有的廣告都必須採取實名制我們就確定說只有謝金河本人才能那個發廣告說他是謝金河"},{"start":16579.614,"end":16604.218,"text":"那另外一方面我們是透過那個簡訊以及那個我們的網站通告查詢網的方式我們就是想辦法把盡快的把這些仿冒名人還有假投資的詐騙想辦法讓他盡快的下架那我們跟那個Facebook跟Line跟那個Google也都建立很好的溝通管道我們可以在很快的時間裡面把這些詐騙訊息下架有成效嗎"},{"start":16605.739,"end":16632.235,"text":"是 那個我想委員我們可以注意到就是說現在在Facebook上面譬如說假冒那個謝金和假冒陳文茜這一類的廣告已經大幅下降了這個我想很多人都注意到 媒體也有報導這個部分這兩個機關要加油 要加強因為我們在整個所了解到的是都是警察在忙啊"},{"start":16633.72,"end":16654.413,"text":"檢查非常忙,忙著這個都是一個需要去加強的部分所以今天這個今天的幾個電信管理法的一個修正非常非常的有它的必要性"},{"start":16656.387,"end":16671.523,"text":"這個以NCC的報告裡面這個還要期待行政院提出修法草案事實上立委已經提出了修法的草案到底要怎麼樣會更好"},{"start":16672.455,"end":16698.193,"text":"你們直接在審查會的時候就提出來 而不必等到行政院的這個法案因為這個是迫不及待的一個 需要去解決的部分所以這個部分要請這個NCC這邊如果相關的法案 如果條文認為怎麼樣修會更好這個大家都可以共同的來去審查好的 我們會一起努力"},{"start":16699.243,"end":16726.002,"text":"這個NCC最後你的經費凍結案什麼時候可以送解凍報告我們盡快因為還在程序中我們會盡快這個1月20幾號立法院就三讀通過了這個預算案就應該先準備好了總統在3月公告了這個預算案應該就可以送來了為什麼不能送來"},{"start":16727.261,"end":16751.638,"text":"好 我們會盡快 謝謝委員什麼叫盡快就是我們完成該有程序之後就會送出這很容易啊 照理應該一月二十幾號三讀通過應該就準備好了就應該就可以所以已經四月了呢這個過去三月就開始審查解凍案了呢好不好好 沒問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝委員"},{"start":16754.554,"end":16782.428,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員現在請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在現在請喜智傑委員執行主席我們請主委好 陳代主委"},{"start":16787.543,"end":16788.91,"text":"各位好 各位剛剛那個"},{"start":16791.135,"end":16819.76,"text":"750元這個審查費已經很多元都談很多了啦那現在就是說我們希望說你們趕快朝免徵的方向去進行嘛是這個部分沒有問題嗎沒有沒有問題所以那個程序上我想我們就不用管那麼多啦那就是說這個是一個精神跟原則那希望說NCC盡快就是所有的程序可以處理的我們就盡快處理我們在處理的範圍內我一定會全力處理"},{"start":16820.18,"end":16843.836,"text":"就往這個方向去處理 我們這個案子三黨好不容易有個共識大家都一致希望說不要再爭了 這750元我們會有個共同的提案 也希望說主委能夠盡量配合這個方向其實你有一個很簡單的觀念 民眾 他們是自己用的 你就不要收了他們做生意我們不會說嘛"},{"start":16845.738,"end":16864.834,"text":"我知道你那裡有七類嘛 對不對就是有前六類有做到生意的做到生意的基本上你們有你們的管理方式我覺得那個應該還是可以考量只是說純粹他個人的需要他出國回來 帶一行 帶兩行回來你再叫他 帶一隻兒子回來你再叫他 現在有什麼審查會 現在有沒有比較好"},{"start":16871.701,"end":16877.548,"text":"就個人使用的一項或兩項少數的就不用再收了就朝這個方向去處理"},{"start":16879.48,"end":16906.449,"text":"好 那個我們的海嵐船我們的海嵐經常受到那個船把我們的鉤壞嘛 對不對近年來鉤了好很多很多次那我想我們如何去預防那NCC每一次都回答說你們只要有鉤壞啦你們在24小時值班會盡量把它恢復盡量修復等等的啦這個是比較消極的作為那你們比較積極的作為"},{"start":16908.449,"end":16937.197,"text":"這陣子有沒有抓到人這幾年來最近有現場抓到是台澎台澎海巡署有把船押回港內我知道我是只要數目字你抓到一件嘛對不對對勾匯了這五年來有多少件五年內我就詳細數據該列了幾十件對不對差不多對啊結果呢只抓到一件"},{"start":16939.702,"end":16962.08,"text":"屬於國際海嵐部分因為它是你們不是有要求中華電信嗎對要有運維船海嵐自己修復船的大概養一台海嵐修復船的成本太高當初中華電信也有評估過大概比較所以你們要求他們是說做不到還是怎麼樣他們是認為說目前還沒辦法達到沒錯"},{"start":16963.916,"end":16987.276,"text":"好那你們盡快溝通啦我是覺得就是說你總是要有一些積極作為嘛是關老是消極作為人家現在有那個裝甲的電纜技術可以直接沉很深幾十公里幫你剪斷那醫藥事情都要處理不完這個我們會要求中華電信跟都是來繼續努力盡快想一個積極可以處理的作為好不好好"},{"start":16989.076,"end":17007.351,"text":"那再來國際詐騙電話其實我要求很多次我看你們是有進步啦有進步你們好像宣傳的不太夠你們那個過濾掉的狀況現在在你們所做的有沒有什麼具體的成果可以簡單描述一下"},{"start":17009.551,"end":17018.434,"text":"簡單來講就是藍組的部分從113年最高峰到現在其實偽造這個國內的電話部分藍組部分大概藍掉87%最高值跟現在的現況來比那偽裝是國內的行動部分藍組"},{"start":17028.036,"end":17043.264,"text":"將近98%都攔掉了所以他現在詐騙集團這一塊國際電話的那一塊都比較在165舉報那邊都比較少了我看你那個結果就是國際來話化物量從最多的時候是5000多萬通"},{"start":17046.068,"end":17067.798,"text":"現在是500多萬通所以這是你們的成果有成果總是要宣導因為其實我那時候跟你們提過就是說你做一個伺服器那它發出去那有國際異常進來其實你就不要直接你用轉接你這邊如果說可以去計算它的那個進來的化量在一天裡面異常"},{"start":17068.638,"end":17092.869,"text":"一般國際電話卡進來,若不是詐騙的,做生意的他不會說一天接通電話一直卡到不一樣的地方所以你們用這樣子去攔截這個發號行為也在我們這個防護的一個考量參數之一我的意思是說有成果要講一下,雖然500多萬通過很多啦,大家也是要買啦但是就算你們已經阻掉4500萬通的總是要講一下啦"},{"start":17095.558,"end":17123.512,"text":"這樣好不好 做的要講方針嘛當然你做不夠的 再繼續讓你嘛 好不好再來就是我再建議一下就是說你那個手機的那個接聽警示是不是可以再加強那以及就是你的成果跟防災意識我們繼續來宣導希望說積極啦 照片電話真的是很討厭那我想你們應該是盡量再多用一點心讓國園少售片為主"},{"start":17124.232,"end":17147.146,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實我們持續在努力在未來的網路電話那邊也一樣會引入類似的機制好 辛苦 謝謝好 OK謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝喜事節召委的執行現在葉延之委員葉延之 葉延之不在好完了嗎沒有了好"},{"start":17149.52,"end":17167.166,"text":"登記執行委員已花言完畢 作為以下的決定一 報告及執行完畢二 委員麥義貞委員提出書面執行 首題書面執行列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":17168.419,"end":17186.901,"text":"三 委員執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請國家通信傳播委員會儘速以書面答型所以我們的答型的部分就"},{"start":17188.283,"end":17208.089,"text":"到現在來接下來我們討論進行討論事項先處理第一案的行政命令部分因為本案是行政命令所以不以先讀條文也不足調審查現在有提"},{"start":17210.387,"end":17231.705,"text":"好分別應處理核准之電信管管制攝影器材以及電信管理攝頻器材製造輸入及申請作業管理辦法修正修正案在這個部分我們請邀請"},{"start":17236.928,"end":17257.097,"text":"請通常會說明各位委員不曉得有沒有意見好沒有的話我們請通常會說明不需要站起來直接說明就好因為我們謝謝法務部黃政次因為這個業務跟他無關所以請他先請離席謝謝我們黃政次謝謝"},{"start":17265.845,"end":17268.926,"text":"這位委員有沒有意見 因為他遵照辦理有沒有意見沒有意見就結議 今同意被查 報請宴會存查"},{"start":17290.558,"end":17305.421,"text":"好接下來我們就第二案的電信管理業務規會收費標準第14條第14條條文的修正那有委員提案一併請我們先讀先讀"},{"start":17315.165,"end":17344.611,"text":"提案一案 規費法第十條第一項規定業務主管機關應依下列原則訂定或調整收費基準並減負成本資料洽商該級政府規費主管機關同意並送該級民意機關備查鑒於國家通訊常務委員會所擬之電信管理業務規費收費標準第十四條附表九修正後電信管制色評器材規費收費標準表資致用第二級電信管制"},{"start":17345.391,"end":17360.541,"text":"設平器材輸入核准審查費違依法就所修正之收費項目減付成本資料及修正之具體理由違反規範法規定原依立法院職權行使法第62條第1項"},{"start":17363.16,"end":17379.559,"text":"此部分決議部與備查其餘更正相關修法引發社會大眾對該收費費額有無收取必要執行方式比例費額大小是否恰當與能否達到行政目的之疑慮原請通傳會針對該表新針"},{"start":17383.55,"end":17396.151,"text":"不予被查之審查費重新審視其必要性與合理性予以修正並為適當之處理其餘部分者同意被查抵押人委員您國懲等宣讀完畢"},{"start":17398.029,"end":17417.059,"text":"好 各位這個現在我們這個提案是多數委員提案提案委員 洪孟楷 邱若驊黃健豪 陳雪生 蔡其昌 喜智傑魯明哲 廖先祥以上"},{"start":17419.498,"end":17447.941,"text":"還有遊浩遊浩委員那請問一下針對這些修正案除了收賄的其餘部分同意被查但是收賄的部分是不已被查所以大家有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就是通有沒有好的這是提案這是提案這是提案要不要說明一下來陳代書委"},{"start":17449.565,"end":17453.757,"text":"其他部分剛剛你已經宣讀過了所以我們就按照正式辦理沒問題"},{"start":17459.953,"end":17486.573,"text":"照案辦理是講這個案嘛好那我們現在就做成這個部分的結議通過結議一項本案其中新增之自用第二級電信管制攝頻器材輸入核准審查會不已被查請國家通信傳播委員會予以更正其以部分准以被查"},{"start":17488.22,"end":17492.624,"text":"那各位委員有沒有意見沒有好沒有意見我們就做成以上的結議好"},{"start":17495.287,"end":17518.992,"text":"那今天我們另外就是電信管理法審查的部分也謝謝各位委員現在那因為總共有七案的部分七案的部分那這七案的部分我在看主管機關跟我們提案委員在這裡我特別拜託NCC及有關單位在這段時間"},{"start":17520.552,"end":17548.442,"text":"都跟委員提案委員來做充分溝通取得共識之後我們另定期繼續來審查各位委員這樣有沒有意見好沒有意見的話我們要拜託NCC主管機關要跟提案委員去做說明取得一個共識這樣的話我們擇期再審才有一個共識好不好好"},{"start":17550.708,"end":17573.504,"text":"好 針對今天的會議做以下的決議一 討論四項第一案行政命令部分應經核准之電信管理設平器材及電信管制設平器材製造輸入及申請作業管理辦法修正案"},{"start":17574.524,"end":17599.569,"text":"並按審查完略依據立法院職前行使法第62條第二項規定彌據審查報告報請院會存查電信管理業務規規會說會標準第14條之修正條文修正審查完略依據立法院職前行使法第62條第一項規定"},{"start":17603.211,"end":17618.232,"text":"擬據審查報告連同通過之結議案提報應會討論通過國家通信傳播委員會的更正以上三案部分更正"},{"start":17619.541,"end":17633.291,"text":"部分更正以上商案宴會討論前不需交由黨團協商宴會討論時由林昭吉委員做補充說明以上會議的結議有沒有意見"},{"start":17637.918,"end":17651.671,"text":"好沒意見好接下來討論提案第二案的部分令定期繼續細審大家有沒有意見好沒有意見本次會議結束上會謝謝大家"},{"start":17665.452,"end":17695.452,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17695.452,"end":17711.152,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159874","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159874","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/af9684606460b582ec4f65e9d1842920bdcf8c6e832fa1fa58f97504dae4de50b3e2e9b7fa15091f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:34:16 - 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我們會努力爭取"},{"start":218.001,"end":234.375,"text":"那這個部分如果像類似的資料我們會不會很難做已經很久了嗎上一次行政院要求要這個這個會不會很難做如果不會很難做多久可以做出來可以交給行政院處長"},{"start":236.763,"end":247.673,"text":"包委員我們會盡快把委員盡快是多快大概預定因為這個下次的這個行政希望我們在半年之內提供那開會的時間是12月31號12月所以我們預定是會在12月31號開的會你什麼時候提去年12月是是所以你近期我們會盡快的把資料送出去好"},{"start":255.339,"end":277.548,"text":"因為我們希望行政院一定要記住他們在現階段對軍人的承諾過去跟現在都一樣現在為什麼大家會不願意進來當軍人第一 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這個就沒有人做到有 這個跟委員報告其實勞動部 教育部 經濟部都有相關職能基準的一個經驗所以他們建議我們要偽商時間的部分 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主委我來關心一下我們嘉義的一個長照大樓的工程進度 它是在我們鹿滿嘉義灣橋分院鹿滿長照大樓的工程進度那我們看一下這個圖面上面所示 那這個住住大樓對我們來講是非常重要的一個長照的資源 那對不僅是我們竹崎鄉還有鄰近的鄉鎮來講 它也是一個很重要的一個醫療資源跟長照的資源 所以我"},{"start":38.451,"end":64.092,"text":"一直想關心這個問題就是為什麼我們預算中心指出長沙大樓興建的這個計畫預算執行最低的然後還有因為綜合歸要報告還有這個水土保持計畫的這個時程還一直在延後多次流標這進度是一直被嚴重的影響所以從去年12月24舉行這個凍土典禮後來又因為水保等等的一些問題還有建造沒有取得所以是停工什麼時候可以復工啊"},{"start":66.431,"end":79.277,"text":"那委員他4月1號開始開工4月1號就昨天就昨天所以昨天已經因為剛才我聽我們助理講說說就是近期就會正式開工所以已經開工了開工4月1號開工那預計是116年6月完工所以說117年前"},{"start":84.319,"end":104.067,"text":"117年6月開幕太好了 那這個消息我也想藉由這次的質詢跟我們所有的民眾講不用擔心 已經開工 會如期完工這樣對不對 主委動土我也去過 親自去然後縣長一起主持動土的引入沒有問題 這個是可以如期的完工好 謝謝 謝謝 這個很重要 因為"},{"start":108.169,"end":133.245,"text":"我們的嘉義縣老年人口已經突破23%了那今天聽到這一個好的消息我也想要給所有我們嘉義縣特別是我們山區的民眾知道那我們主委也承諾他會如期如質那已經在昨天重新復工那沒有問題那再來我想要請教另外一個跟也是您的業務啦嘉義分廠的這一個二次招商這個部分就"},{"start":134.285,"end":157.397,"text":"也是在我們山區不過是在大埔鄉大埔鄉的彰化農場加一分場那三月中他進行第二次招商還是沒有廠商投標所以是去年九月第一次招商之後再一次沒有廠商投標有沒有初步檢討是什麼原因造成他們廠商最近嘉蘭地區的地震頻傳這是一個"},{"start":158.417,"end":183.269,"text":"會影響廠商投資意願第二個當然也是國內旅遊市場環境的一個因素那針對這些我們當然也要增加一些誘因然後能夠順利的去招商所以現在在我們事業處規劃之下現在積極在籌備當中5月準備上網公告5月準備上網公告那準備要用什麼樣的方式去調整"},{"start":185.17,"end":209.211,"text":"我們處長跟您報告一下我是事業管理處處長楊長正當然針對廠商提出的問題我們也做了檢討比如說旅約保證金的發還機制比如說資本額過高等問題這個月我們還會整合其他有意願廠商的意見把它整合起來做一個修正然後五月份我們就可以公告了"},{"start":209.611,"end":231.841,"text":"我看多次招商的反饋都是說就像你剛才提到的8000萬的資本額過高那這不是一家兩家三家四家基本上大家都是這樣子的說法那可能就要快速檢討一下因為我們是希望說從113年辦理的這個說明會有24家出席結果投標之後你們也是有去洽詢12家潛在廠商"},{"start":234.762,"end":251.047,"text":"我意思說這個東西不要再反覆的出現我們一起把這個問題先想說怎麼樣解決因為不只是我們地方的鄉親包含鄉長啊代表們都一直在反應說希望能夠把大埔的潛力給開發出來這是第一點然後第二點剛才有提到地震"},{"start":252.308,"end":279.908,"text":"雖然是在地震是發生在大埔但是其實已經慢慢的從這個戰情中已經都復甦我們希望說大家想到大埔鄉的時候能夠想像的是他水庫的這個觀光還有周遭的一些農場設施而不是在我們就不要再講說這些天災導致什麼什麼我們要往前走那希望說盡快的來去招商那第三次的招商你是預計4月11號是不是5月份我們會公告"},{"start":280.769,"end":302.1,"text":"5月份公告但是4月11號是要現刊嗎4月份我們會整合廠商意見整合修訂我們的招商公告公告完畢以後我們公告一個月因為目前為止還是有潛在的投資人願意來所以說我們公告一個月以後再來開標"},{"start":303.18,"end":324.887,"text":"好那我們先盡快那如果可以的話兩個月現在幾號現在4月2號嘛那我們兩個月就來給我們簡單的書面告訴我們說現在的進度到什麼樣的狀況最後我想要提一下我們這個也是我們的榮總嘉義跟灣橋分院的護理人員空缺的部分"},{"start":328.722,"end":349.271,"text":"我們請相關的官員在主委那邊來協助一下如果我們先看一下這個立法院的預算中心有指出我們龍總的護理人員臨時人數是持續增加那人力短缺的問題是很嚴重的那這個我特別要注意到我們嘉義的部分"},{"start":350.111,"end":371.037,"text":"那就醫療作業基金資料上面的顯示從108年起我們加一分院它的空缺率就在上升那到113年還有11%的空缺率那三區的灣橋分院大概都是13%左右的這個空缺率如果用退輔會提供的數字的話那在各級"},{"start":372.786,"end":392.518,"text":"籠總公職護理空缺率嘉義的灣橋分院它的空缺率是2.13%是各級籠總空缺率第二高的從這個數字我們可以看到這個各級籠總較為不足的院區我們的灣橋分院它是嘉義縣山區最我們最依賴的這個院所之一"},{"start":393.078,"end":403.437,"text":"他提供的不是只有竹崎鄉竹崎泛路中埔甚至是部分的阿里山地區都有他提供的協助我想請教一下這個醫療的能量到底足不足夠有沒有什麼可以"},{"start":404.318,"end":429.523,"text":"改進讓我們這個協助處理醫護人員短缺的這個部分的問題特別是在我們這個灣橋這邊跟委員報告剛剛我們就醫處長也報告嘉義灣橋分院公職護理人員現在預算是188個人那現在剛剛委員這個表裡面所列的這個缺額的百分比我們行政院的人事總署他有一個4%的規定就是你絕對不能超過4%"},{"start":430.703,"end":455.583,"text":"那也就是說這個彎橋分院它2.13目前還符合但今年我們會再增加59個人工作的比例能夠稍微提高然後退休人員回任我們請他們回任7月也有7個人所以這加起來就66個我們希望今年能夠提高他們的這個戶評比能夠提高我們的護理人員好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時26分）麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請主委，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。我來關心一下我們嘉義長照大樓的工程進度，是在嘉義鹿滿的灣橋分院鹿滿長照大樓的工程進度，看一下圖面上面所示，這個住宿大樓對我們來講，是非常重要的長照資源，不僅是對我們竹崎鄉，還有鄰近的鄉鎮來講，也是很重要的醫療資源跟長照資源。","我一直很關心這個問題，為什麼預算中心指出長照大樓興建計劃的預算執行率是最低？還有因為綜合規劃報告、水土保持計畫的時程一直在延後，多次流標造成進度一直被嚴重的影響。從去年12月24日舉行動土典禮後，又因為水保還有建照沒有取得等等的問題導致停工，什麼時候可以復工？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，4月1日已經開始開工。"],["陳委員冠廷：4月1日就昨天？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是昨天。"],["陳委員冠廷：昨天已經開工？因為剛才我聽我們助理講，近期就會正式開工，所以已經開工了？"],["嚴主任委員德發：4月1號開工，預計116年6月完工，然後……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以117年前就可以完工？"],["嚴主任委員德發：117年6月開幕。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個消息太好了，我想藉由這次的質詢，跟我們所有的民眾講不用擔心，已經開工，會如期完工，這樣對不對？主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：上次動土我也親自去，縣長也有一起主持鹿滿的動土典禮，所以那個地方……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有問題，這是可以如期如質的完工？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會按照期程執行。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，這個很重要。因為我們的嘉義縣老年人口已經突破23%，今天聽到這個好消息，想要給所有嘉義縣特別是我們山區的民眾知道，主委也承諾會如期如質完工，已經在昨天重新復工，沒有問題。","再來要請教的也是您的業務，嘉義分場二次招商的部分，也是在我們嘉義山區，不過是在大埔鄉的彰化農場嘉義分場，3月中進行第二次招商，還是沒有廠商投標，所以是去年9月第一次招商之後，再次沒有廠商投標，有沒有初步檢討是什麼原因造成廠商沒有意願？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，第一個，最近嘉南地區的地震頻傳，這會影響廠商投資的意願；第二個，國內旅遊市場環境的因素，我們針對這些問題，當然也要增加一些誘因，才能夠順利的招商，在我們事業處規劃下，現在積極籌備當中，5月準備上網公告。"],["陳委員冠廷：5月準備上網公告，要準備用什麼樣的方式調整？"],["嚴主任委員德發：請我們處長跟您報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒問題。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長楊長政，我們針對廠商提出的問題也做了檢討，比如履約保證金的發還機制、資本額過高等問題，這個月還會把其他有意願廠商的意見整合起來做修正，在5月份就可以公告了。"],["陳委員冠廷：我看多次招商的反饋，都是像你剛才提到的8,000萬的資本額過高，所以不是一家、兩家、三家、四家，基本上大家都是這樣的說法，那可能就要快速檢討一下，因為113年辦理的說明會有24家出席，結果投標之後，你們也有去洽詢12家潛在廠商，我的意思是這個情況不要再反覆的出現，我們一起把這個問題解決。"],["楊處長長政：了解。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為不只是我們地方鄉親，包含鄉長、代表們都一直在反映，希望能夠把大埔的潛力給開發出來，這是第一點。然後第二點剛才有提到地震，雖然地震是發生在大埔，但是其實已經慢慢的從災情中復甦，我們希望大家想到大埔鄉的時候，能夠想像的是它水庫的觀光，還有周遭的一些農場設施，就不要再講這些天災導致什麼、什麼，我們要往前走，希望能儘快的招商。第3次的招商是預計4月11號，是不是？"],["楊處長長政：5月份我們會公告。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是4月11號是要現勘嗎？"],["楊處長長政：對，4月份我們會整合所有廠商意見，修訂我們的招商公告，我們公告一個月，因為目前為止還是有潛在的投資人願意來，所以我們公告一個月以後再來開標。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，我們希望儘快，如果可以的話，今天4月2號，那兩個月之後給我們簡單的書面，告訴我們進度到什麼樣的狀況。"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後我想要提一下榮總嘉義跟灣橋分院護理人員空缺的部分，我們請相關的官員來協助一下主委。先看一下立法院的預算中心指出，榮總護理人員的離職人數持續增加，人力短缺的問題很嚴重，我特別注意到嘉義的部分，醫療作業基金的資料顯示，從108年起嘉義分院的空缺率就在上升，到113年還有11%的空缺率，山區的灣橋分院大概都是13%左右的空缺率；但如果用退輔會提供的各級榮總公職護理空缺率，嘉義灣橋分院的空缺率是2.13%，是各級榮總空缺率第二高的。從這個數字我們可以看到各級榮總較為不足的院區，灣橋分院是嘉義縣山區最依賴的院所之一，它提供協助的不只限於竹崎鄉，還有番路、中埔甚至部分的阿里山地區，我想請教一下，這個醫療的能量到底足不足夠？有沒有什麼可以改進的？協助我們處理醫護人員短缺的問題，特別是在灣橋分院這邊？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，剛剛我們就醫處長也報告，嘉義灣橋分院公職護理人員現在預算員額是188個，剛剛委員這個表裡所列的缺額百分比，行政院人事總處有一個4%的規定，就是絕對不能超過4%，也就是說灣橋分院目前的2.13%還符合規定，但今年我們會再增加59人，讓公職的比例能夠稍微提高，然後我們請退休人員回任的契約也有7個，所以加起來有66人，我們希望在今年能夠提高他們的護病比，增加我們的護理人員。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝主委。","接下來請馬文君委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-5","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","王定宇","林楚茵","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","何欣純","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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對不對是近年來鉤了好很多很多次那我想我們如何去預防那NCC每一次都回答說你們只要有鉤壞啦你們在24小時值班會盡量把它恢復盡量修復等等的啦這個是比較消極的作為那你們比較積極的作為"},{"start":133.725,"end":162.467,"text":"這陣子有沒有抓到人這幾年來最近有限量抓到人是台澎台澎海浪斷掉海巡署有把船押回港內我知道我是只要數目字你抓到一件嘛對不對勾匯了這五年來有多少件五年內我就詳細數據該列了幾十件對不對差不多對啊結果呢只抓到一件"},{"start":164.978,"end":187.336,"text":"屬於國際海嵐部分因為它是你們不是有要求中華電信嗎對要有運維船海嵐自己修復船的大概養一台海嵐修復船的成本太高當初中華電信也有評估過大概比較目前是要求他們是說做不到還是怎麼樣他們是認為說目前還沒辦法達到沒錯"},{"start":189.192,"end":212.53,"text":"好 那你們盡快溝通啦 我是覺得就是說你總是要有一些積極作為嘛萬老四消極作為 人家現在有那個裝甲的電纜技術可以直接沉很深幾十公里幫你剪斷那醫藥事情都要處理不完這個我們會要求中華電信跟 就是來繼續努力盡快想一個積極可以處理的作為 好不好好"},{"start":214.352,"end":232.621,"text":"那再來國際詐騙電話其實我要求很多次我看你們是有進步啦有進步你們好像宣傳的不太夠你們那個過濾掉的狀況現在在你們所做的有沒有什麼具體的成果可以簡單描述一下"},{"start":234.807,"end":243.71,"text":"簡單來講就是藍組的部分從113年最高峰到現在其實偽造這個國內的電話部分藍組部分大概藍掉87%最高值跟現在的現況來比那偽裝是國內的行動部分藍組"},{"start":253.292,"end":268.577,"text":"將近98%都攔掉了所以他現在詐騙集團這一塊國際電話的那一塊都比較在165舉報那邊都比較少了我看你那個結果就是國際來話化物量從最多的時候是5000多萬桶"},{"start":271.344,"end":293.054,"text":"現在是500多萬通所以這是你們的成果有成果總是要宣導因為其實我那時候跟你們提過就是說你做一個伺服器那它發出去那有國際異常進來其實你就不要直接你用轉接你這邊如果說可以去計算它的那個進來的化量在一天裡面異常"},{"start":293.914,"end":318.205,"text":"一般國際電話卡進來,如果不是詐騙的,做生意的他不會說一天接通電話一直卡到不一樣的地方啦所以你們用這樣子去攔截這個發號行為也在我們這個防護的一個考量參數之一我的意思是說有成果要講一下,雖然500多萬通過很多啦,大家也是要買啦但是就算你們已經阻掉4500萬通的總是要講一下啦"},{"start":320.811,"end":348.788,"text":"這樣好不好 做的要講方針嘛當然你做不夠的 再繼續努力嘛 好不好再來就是我再建議一下就是說你那個手機的那個接聽警示是不是可以再加強那以及就是你的成果跟防災意識我們繼續來宣導希望說積極啦 照片電話真的是很討厭那我想你們應該是盡量再多用一點心讓國園少售片為主"},{"start":349.488,"end":358.41,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實我們持續在努力在未來的網路電話那邊也一樣會引入類似的機制好 辛苦 謝謝好 OK謝謝委員 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各位委員有請國家通訊傳播委員會陳主委好 陳代主委還有數位發展部林次長好 數位部林次長好 大家辛苦了"},{"start":29.396,"end":56.105,"text":"這個天下雜誌在2023年的一個報導這個台灣為以開發國家備詐金額最高的國家以網路電信這方面的一個詐騙然後這個監察院在去年也通過了政府防制電信網路詐欺這個是相關的這些詐欺案"},{"start":57.021,"end":80.272,"text":"嚴重這個非常的也提出這個相關的對策跟檢討這裡面特別提到詐騙國安危機全國招詐500億這樣的一個非常嚴重所以相關這些當然打詐司法也通過了但是並沒有遏止這些詐騙的這個案件"},{"start":86.443,"end":114.026,"text":"近五年詐欺案件不斷的升高剛提到去年502.5億所以這裡面相關這樣的一個案例層出不窮所以先請教國家通訊傳播委員會到底政府有什麼樣的就連NCC有什麼樣的因應措施"},{"start":114.511,"end":128.647,"text":"是的根本包括政府是這個團隊的合作施炸、堵炸、防炸、懲炸是由五個部會來處理NCC是負責堵炸這一塊我們主要是攔阻這個"},{"start":131.47,"end":156.525,"text":"異常的電話還有跟簡訊那電話部分大概這邊的成效大概都已經出來所以他們都轉移到其他地方簡訊的部分特別是商業簡訊這邊我們大概去年9月10月開始推以來那目前的成效大概去年10月到今年1月件數被通報165通報件數都是零但是他大概就轉移到比較偏網路那一塊那這邊我們都會持續協同相關部分來努力"},{"start":157.405,"end":183.07,"text":"這個主詐這是最重要的怎麼樣讓這個人民不要受到這個詐騙所以這個主詐很重要是所以這個部分這個要去持續的繼續的去加強是你剛剛說有這個成效書面的資料提供好沒問題那個數位發展部你們有什麼樣因應的"},{"start":183.49,"end":212.656,"text":"是 在反詐方面數位發展部的職責主要是要避免民眾在Facebook Google以及Line這樣的社群平台上面被騙到一個私訊裡面通常詐騙集團它事實上是有一個產業鏈的剛開始會在Facebook Google或者是Twitter上面講說我是謝金河我賺了很多錢希望你加入我的群組這個時候他就把人騙到一個"},{"start":213.416,"end":240.821,"text":"那個小房間裡面那我們速發布就是要避免民眾被騙進去那我們的具體作為有分成兩部分第一個是法律方面法律方面我們非常感謝那個立法院在去年我們通過了打詐專法那從今年的1月開始不管是Facebook Line或者是在Google上面所有的廣告都必須採取實名制我們就確定說只有謝金河本人才能那個發廣告說他是謝金河"},{"start":241.321,"end":265.905,"text":"那另外一方面我們是透過那個簡訊以及那個我們的網站通告查詢網的方式我們就是想辦法把盡快的把這些仿冒名人還有假投資的詐騙想辦法讓他盡快的下架那我們跟那個Facebook跟Line跟那個Google也都建立很好的溝通管道我們可以在很快的時間裡面把這些詐騙訊息下架有成效嗎"},{"start":267.445,"end":293.936,"text":"是 那個我想委員我們可以注意到就是說現在在Facebook上面譬如說假冒那個謝金和假冒陳文茜這一類的廣告已經大幅下降了這個我想那個很多人都注意到媒體也有報導這個部分這兩個機關要加油要加強這個因為我們在整個所了解到的是都是警察在忙啊"},{"start":295.247,"end":316.125,"text":"警察非常忙,忙著這個,這個都是一個需要去加強的部分所以今天呢,這個今天的幾個電信管理法的一個修正非常非常的有它的必要性"},{"start":318.094,"end":333.23,"text":"這個以NCC的報告裡面這個還要期待行政院提出修法草案事實上立委已經提出了修法的草案到底要怎麼樣會更好"},{"start":334.161,"end":359.899,"text":"你們直接在審查會的時候就提出來不必等到行政院的這個法案因為這個是迫不及待的一個需要去解決的部分所以這個部分要請這個NCC這邊如果相關的法案如果條文認為可以怎麼樣修會更好這個是因為大家都可以共同的來去審查好的我們會一起努力"},{"start":360.95,"end":387.688,"text":"這個NCC最後你的經費凍結案什麼時候可以送解凍報告我們盡快因為還在程序中我們會盡快這個1月20幾號立法院就三讀通過了這個預算案就應該先準備好了總統在3月公告了這個預算案應該就可以送來了為什麼不能送來"},{"start":388.968,"end":413.811,"text":"好 我們會盡快 謝謝委員什麼叫盡快就是我們完成 該有程序之後就會送出這很容易啊 照理應該1月20幾號三讀通過應該就準備好了就應該就可以 現在已經四月了呢這個過去三月就開始審查解凍案了呢 好不好好 沒問題 好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":943,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（13時2分）主席、各位委員。有請國家通訊傳播委員會陳主委。"],["主席：好，陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有數位發展部林次長。"],["主席：好，數位部林次長。"],["鄭天財Sra 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民眾到時候是沒有網路可以用"},{"start":202.682,"end":226.58,"text":"我知道數位部有佈建一些700多次店但是也是主要是公益使用我根本請數位部來補充好那沒關係我先接著問好了那這樣子目前來講像我們現在都送這種iPhone的手機啊那這種的話都是無線的也必須要就是比方以前大家都會用耳機那這樣子假如暫時的時候沒有通訊的時候那這種Apple的這種手機還能夠聽廣播嗎"},{"start":229.997,"end":256.164,"text":"早期很多手機都有內建這個收電FMF現在比較少必須要選擇購買的時候必須要看一下它貴格型物體頭有沒有含這項功能沒有的話大概就沒有那所以說假如真的到那種情況的時候那遠上大家說手機不能通不能夠使用的時候大家必須要聽廣播那現在的大家許多的新手機來講可能因為沒有網路沒有訊號所以也沒辦法聽廣播沒有錯吧"},{"start":257.165,"end":285.927,"text":"所以一般一些緊急救護包裡頭會有一個收音機這種設計的原因大概也是在這邊所以你還是希望說大家去準備這個緊急的一個急難包它裡面要有收音機嗎就是看每個人的取捨啦但是這個資訊可以讓大家都知道像一些緊急的地震什麼救難包裡頭大概都會有手電筒啊收音機啊這些"},{"start":286.667,"end":313.459,"text":"因為我們現在來講不僅是怕有戰事發生那同樣的我們也會擔心說會不會有大地震嘛那所以這些東西都是大家平常需要去做防範未然那再來我要接著問像4年60億的這個災難漫遊計畫那時候是主要是針對這個戰爭通訊我們現在來講可能也會擔心會不會有大型的這種天災地震因為畢竟我們氣象署提出警示那這樣子的一個計畫目前實施進度為何"},{"start":315.494,"end":341.036,"text":"跟委員報告如果台灣發生重大的天災或者是區域衝突的時候我們速發部主要是要在網路通訊上面一方面要確保台灣能對外通聯另外一個是我們要確保台灣內部能通聯對外能通聯的話我們主要就是透過衛星還有微波還有光纖海嵐的備援我們盡量做備援避免被光纖海嵐被切斷"},{"start":341.716,"end":365.247,"text":"然後對內來講的話我們第一個就是說又分成兩個部分來做第一個就是我們確定說我們這個基地台有電力的供應那這個當然需要那個台電等那個就是他們來幫忙那另外一個就是我們在那個手機要使用的話必須有所謂的核網就是那個三大像那個中華電信台灣大各大還有那個"},{"start":367.048,"end":391.24,"text":"遠傳電性的那個機房萬一他們機房被破壞或者是因為地震會摧毀的時候我們就是有一個機制就是他們可以互相備援譬如說其中有一家他的機房壞掉了那我們所有的手機就可以緊急的轉換到其他兩家的那個機房的合網設施去使用所以目前來講假如發生這種特殊情況的時候三家電信業者的機台是可以互相來做備援的"},{"start":391.46,"end":417.086,"text":"是我們之前提出的預算就是有一些就是要做這方面的工作那如果說那回頭來講我再接著請教NCC代理主委就是如果說像假如發生這種天災或是戰禍的這種情況之下民眾要如何接收消息除了廣播之外電視的時候還能看嗎還收得到嗎還是只有必須要透過什麼樣的形式來接收到相關的疏散的或是救難的訊息"},{"start":418.408,"end":442.082,"text":"無線電視只要它有電源的話應該還是收容到但是前提是要無線電視的那個轉播站台沒有被破壞還存在但是相對的它的架台也會相對是比較有機會還是存在但是廣播會比較更快因為廣播它的架設時間成本都比較門檻比較低比較容易架設"},{"start":443.564,"end":471.597,"text":"那所以到時候像是電視的部分遠上也比較沒有辦法接收到訊息了嘛只要他發射站轉播站都還在都一樣可以接受一樣可以收得到好OK那好那我就接著希望說台灣無災啦那也希望說目前來講臺灣的局勢能夠降溫啦那但是我們更要讓民眾能夠藉由這樣子的提醒內容來如果說有任何的天災的時候大家要如何反方未然嘛"},{"start":472.037,"end":497.322,"text":"那我想最後再請主委這邊再補充一下如果說除了像是就是廣播的那個收音機之外還有什麼要給大家做提醒的我相信這個相關的部會應該有有在盤點應該是內政部他現在最近都有做一些相關的一些一些宣導宣告我相信那邊應該都會有即便是平時的這個天災"},{"start":499.331,"end":527.757,"text":"颱風等等那些都消防署消防單位都會有這些這些宣導那我還是希望說在NC這裡面還是要扮演角色啦因為畢竟管理三大電信業者的話那這個責任也是不管是任何的一個突發狀況緊急的一個一個情況的時候那還是希望能夠跟三大業者去做協調因為畢竟就是如果大家保持一個良好的通訊那相信很多事情來講就比較傷害跟混亂可以造成最低啦"},{"start":528.483,"end":533.32,"text":"會的 我們會要求第三大業者持續精進他的網路服務好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":906,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時53分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["游委員顥：再接著也有請數發部林次長。"],["主席：林次長。"],["游委員顥：次長在竹山也幫忙南投很多。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["游委員顥：我要延續剛才鴻薇委員所質詢的內容「750之亂」，我們也看到NCC確實說要停徵，我記得那時候是鴻薇委員在第一時間開記者會，幫我們的民眾反映出心聲以及這個問題，當時包括廖先翔委員也有提到不應該扒三層皮，不管是原本海關的費用，包括2,000塊以上的費用，還有包括再收一次審查費，目前也做了停徵的動作，停徵一年，本席還是希望未來相關法規儘快修訂完之後是確定停徵。再來，剛才廖先翔委員在質詢的時候，其實有給我們辦公室很大的啟發，因為民眾現在可能會很關心一些問題，可能有些需要請數發部補充，就像目前來講，先姑且不論賴清德總統發表言論之後，造成臺海局勢嚴重升溫，現在不管是陸方或我國國軍軍演，都可以看得出來民眾對於兩岸如果發生戰事感到擔憂。同樣的，氣象署在前兩天也有特別警示，請民眾在這兩週要密切注意可能發生大地震，所以許多民眾開始擔心。NCC管理國內三大電信業者，目前來講，假如發生戰事或發生重大災難的時候，通訊有沒有什麼預備方案？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們平時會要求他做多路由的一些備援、備份，加強他的韌性強度。業者也會做很多替代方案，比方過往的路由可能不只一條，會有兩條；行網部分會有一些措施，比方某個基地臺失效了，會由周邊的基地臺做一些協力，可能加大功率來處理，目前這一塊的處理是這樣子。"],["游委員顥：我當然能夠理解，目前基地臺加大功率或是能夠互補，又或是能夠擴大範圍。假如發生戰事的時候，局部區域包括基地臺如果被摧毀的時候，我們必須防範未然，因為民眾確實也擔憂。像這樣子來講的話，正常的通訊還能夠維持嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果是地面上的掛掉了，海纜又掛掉，那只能靠衛星，但衛星的頻寬有限，到時候就是搶頻寬資源，但搶頻寬資源必須基於國家安全，會讓國家安全相關單位優先使用。"],["游委員顥：對啊！所以民眾到時候沒有網路可以用。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我知道數位部有布建七百多點，但主要也是公益使用，我可不可以請數位部來補充？"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，我先接著問好了。我們現在都用iPhone手機，這種的話都是無線，像以前大家都會用耳機，假如戰事的時候沒有通訊，Apple的這種手機還能夠聽廣播嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：早期很多手機都有內建收聽AM、FM，現在比較少，購買的時候必須要看一下它的規格裡頭有沒有含這項功能，沒有的話，大概就沒有。"],["游委員顥：假如真的到那種情況的時候，原則上大家手機不能夠使用，必須要聽廣播，但以現在許多新手機來講，可能因為沒有網路、沒有訊號，所以也沒辦法聽廣播，沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一般緊急救護包裡頭會有一個收音機，有這種設計的原因大概也是在這邊。"],["游委員顥：所以你還是希望大家準備緊急急難包，裡面要有收音機嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是看每個人的取捨，但是這個資訊可以讓大家都知道，像一些緊急避難的地震救難包，裡頭大概都會有手電筒、收音機。"],["游委員顥：因為我們現在不僅是怕有戰事發生，同樣的，也會擔心會不會有大地震，所以這些東西都需要大家平常防範未然。","再來，我要接著問，像4年60億的災難漫遊計畫，那時候主要是針對戰爭通訊。現在來講，我們也會擔心會不會有大型的天災、地震，畢竟氣象署有提出警示，這樣的計畫目前實施進度為何？"],["林次長宜敬：如果臺灣發生重大的天災或者區域衝突的時候，數發部主要是在網路通訊上，一方面要確保臺灣能對外通聯，另外一方面要確保臺灣內部能通聯。對外能通聯主要就是透過衛星、微波，還有光纖海纜的備援，我們儘量做備援，避免光纖海纜被切斷。對內來講，我們又分成兩個部分來做，第一個就是我們確定基地台有電力供應，這個當然需要台電等來幫忙；另外一個就是手機要使用，必須有所謂的核網，就是三大業者，像中華電信、台灣大哥大還有遠傳電信的機房，萬一他們的機房被破壞或者是因為地震而摧毀的時候，我們有一個機制，就是他們可以互相備援。譬如其中有一家的機房壞掉了，所有的手機就可以緊急轉換到其他兩家機房的核網設施去使用。"],["游委員顥：所以目前來講，假如發生這種特殊情況的時候，三家電信業者的機臺可以互相備援？"],["林次長宜敬：是，我們之前提出了預算，有一些部分就是要做這方面的工作。"],["游委員顥：回頭來講，我再接著請教NCC代理主委，假如發生天災或是戰禍的情況之下，民眾要如何接收消息，除了廣播之外，電視還能看嗎、還收得到嗎？還是必須要透過什麼樣的形式，接收相關疏散或是救難的訊息？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：無線電視只要有電源的話應該還是收得到，但前提是無線電視的轉播站臺沒有被破壞、還存在，它的架臺也相對比較有機會還是存在，但是廣播會更快，因為廣播的架設時間、成本門檻都比較低，比較容易架設。"],["游委員顥：所以到時候像是電視的部分，原則上也比較沒有辦法接收到訊息了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：只要它的發射站、轉播站都還在，一樣可以收得到。"],["游委員顥：好，OK，希望臺灣無災，也希望目前臺海的局勢能夠降溫，但是我們希望藉由這樣的提醒，當有任何天災的時候，讓民眾能夠防範於未然。","最後請主委這邊再補充一下，除了廣播的收音機之外，還有什麼要跟大家提醒的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我相信相關的部會應該有在盤點，應該是內政部，最近都有做相關的一些宣導、宣告，我相信那邊應該都會有，即便是平時的天災、颱風等等，消防署、消防單位都會有這些相關的宣導。"],["游委員顥：我希望NCC在這裡面還是要扮演角色，因為畢竟還是有管理三大電信業者的責任，不管是任何的突發狀況、緊急情況發生，還是希望你們能夠跟三大業者去做協調，如果大家保持良好的通訊，相信傷害跟混亂就可以降到最低。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會的，我們會要求這三大業者持續精進網路服務。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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變成新聞稿 就變成停真一年 只停真一年所以我想請問一下 你今天會廢止是指廢止一年嗎 還廢止兩年 還是就是廢止要講清楚啊 不要等到今天的委員會結束之後你覺得反正你那個挨過委員會之後 回去又我刑我訴"},{"start":105.25,"end":122.8,"text":"好跟我們回報第一點我們當時2月25會當時在院會回答委員的之所以會這麼講是因為第一個時間關係第二個我當時委員要求我們當天要發新聞稿我們新聞稿是扣活著2月14財政部的回函他是同意我們停政一年"},{"start":123.42,"end":138.473,"text":"當時你告訴我要停徵啊所以我就說我們應該要留下白紙黑字不要到時候你又沒有再做結果呢你發了新聞稿變成停徵一年所以我要講的我們NCC這個信用會打折扣的所以你這今天的委員會"},{"start":140.666,"end":153.579,"text":"就是承諾委員會的事情你就要說到做到好不好停徵就停徵停徵一年跟停徵一年跟停徵跟停徵一年不一樣好嗎我們會在停徵一年期間會完成法規修正"},{"start":155.137,"end":184.116,"text":"之後你應該之前吧不然的話你提針 要針啊對不對一年內我們會把它完整就是要聽針了啦另外請教一下這個過去也有委員在提到的就是你們現在因為我們現在在發展無人機但無人機並不是只有國防的使用它還有很多其他的用途民用的部分通訊用的部分甚至農業等等之類的"},{"start":185.097,"end":193.723,"text":"那麼現在呢因為在無人機上要佈建雷達一下要收幾千萬的這個規費所以這個會影響我們整個無人機產業的一個發展所以我想請問NCC你們還要收這麼多的錢嗎不會影響我們無人機的佈建不會影響這些所謂的關鍵基礎設施嗎"},{"start":210.111,"end":234.63,"text":"好 謝謝委員給我機會來澄清這個應該是報導有誤基本上他應該是平均使用費然後呢我跟委員報告NCC所主管的這個網路審查費電台審查費審驗費執照費全部加起來也不過9200然後這個如果他是用雷達雷達他定位屬於專用電信的電台他大概平均使用費會比較貴"},{"start":236.792,"end":253.375,"text":"但是跟委員報告因為像事業部成立之前是我在主管的我相對清楚啦那以前在桃園機場不是啊你一個人要收多少錢嘛因為我時間有限他可以收0塊錢因為他收的辦法第2條規定說暴行政院符合公共利益是免收"},{"start":254.136,"end":280.584,"text":"你現在所謂符合公共利益是哪一些呢你準備要哪一些除了因為你現在本來是軍用的免收嘛那但是我跟你講有八大關鍵基礎設施不是只有軍用喔還有交通的啊還有水資源的啊還金融啊什麼還高科技等等能源的我想請問一下是不是只要你符合這些關鍵基礎設施的無人機部件雷達通通可以免收是不是"},{"start":281.73,"end":300.273,"text":"因為現在全責在數位部好來正好數位部來時間暫停一下來正式對趕快來回答一下如果NC都這麼大方他免收他說他將近收一萬塊而已他可以免收那問題是其他的部分你們在收費的部分呢"},{"start":301.685,"end":322.53,"text":"跟主委報告因為這個目前並沒有收到那個業者的申請那因為這個無人機的部分他有雷達的部分也有干擾那個干擾槍的部分那他到底要用哪樣什麼樣的頻率我們並沒有具體的這個資料申請資料所以我們現在很難回答你們現在應該什麼收費因為按照現在電信管理法你們只能按電台收費"},{"start":324.168,"end":334.693,"text":"是 可不可以委員請我們資源司司長幫忙回答趕快具體回答 跟委員報告因為主要是這個如果第一個他設的這是寬頻雷達其實寬頻雷達的這個頻段裡面有涵蓋既有的這個行動通信的這個頻段所以如果是一般人來這個申請的話他其實有嚴重干擾這個既有通信的這個之餘所以這個部分我們會審慎來去審查他建置的收費多少"},{"start":353.381,"end":381.278,"text":"如果照我們目前看到有些業者的話他使用的頻寬很寬的話可能會到上達數千萬數千萬好那因為呢我剛剛講這八大關鍵的基礎設施他們應該都會達數千萬所以因為像剛才NC說只要符合公益性或者是這個關鍵基礎設施因為過去是軍用的部分可以免收那我想請問一下那麼你們以速發部的部分"},{"start":382.439,"end":409.106,"text":"符合八大關鍵基礎設施還是要收嗎還是可以免收這個我們如果是關鍵基礎設施的主管機關然後評估確有限制的這個需求的話那這個部分我們由關鍵基礎設施的這個主管機關然後提出我現在具體的提出這個要求和建議因為如果無人機的發展是國家的一個政策不管是產業"},{"start":410.226,"end":432.945,"text":"還有我們作為關鍵基礎設施但是呢我們現在電信管理法它的法並不完備那麼它都要適用於電台所以使得它的規費收費標準變得很高變得很高當然我們現在有一些是商用的完全的商用性的那但是有這個屬於關鍵基礎設施的所以你們就應該把它去做釐清"},{"start":433.866,"end":458.342,"text":"好不好因為現在看起來聽你們的回答我覺得還是比較模糊的因為時間有限我想可不可以請我們的NCC和我們的述發部針對我關心的這公領運的部分跟你們補充報告我們大概上次交通委員會已經有委員提這個我們今天下午大概就會開會這兩個部會來協調來確認這個後續相關的一些怎麼處理下午就會開會你們今天下午開會會有結論嗎"},{"start":461.974,"end":472.809,"text":"應該會確定一些原則你們如果有一些結論的話也趕快再提供給外界也提供給我們那個委員會還有我們辦公室好嗎好可以吧好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時45分）謝謝主席，我先請NCC代主委。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，剛才你有答應委員會，有關電信管制射頻器材的規費收費標準，自用第二級電信管制射頻器材輸入核准審查費每件750元，這個是要把它廢掉？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會朝修正方向來處理，朝……"],["王委員鴻薇：修正就是把這一欄拿掉？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：目前最大的主流民意是不徵、免收。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我要提醒主委，今年2月份我在總質詢的時候，你站在卓院長旁邊，我就在問750塊之亂，當時你就說會停徵，院長也覺得這是不妥的，但是沒想到在總質詢之後，NCC就發布新聞稿，後面加了一個尾巴是停徵一年。那時候我就很納悶，而且我覺得在堂堂議場之上的總質詢，本來說要停徵，結果下來之後的新聞稿變成只停徵一年，所以我想請問一下，你今天所說的會廢止是只廢止一年嗎？還是廢止兩年？還是就廢止了呢？你要講清楚啊！不要等到今天委員會結束之後，你覺得反正你挨過委員會之後回去又我行我素。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，我們2月份當時在院會回答委員，之所以會這麼講是因為第一個時間關係。第二個，當時委員要求我們當天要發布新聞稿，我們的新聞稿是扣合著2月14日財政部的回函，它是同意我們停徵一年。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為當時你告訴我要停徵，所以我就說我們應該要留下白紙黑字，不要到時候你又沒有在做，結果你發的新聞稿變成停徵一年，我要講的是NCC的信用會打折扣的，所以你今天在委員會承諾委員會的事情，你就要說到做到，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會的。"],["王委員鴻薇：停徵就停徵，停徵和停徵一年不一樣，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會在停徵一年期間完成法規修正。"],["王委員鴻薇：之後？應該是之前吧？不然停徵又要徵，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，一年內我們會完成，當時的規劃就是這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是要停徵。另外，請教一下，過去也有委員提到，因為我們現在要發展無人機，但無人機並不是只有國防使用，還有很多其他的用途，例如民用的部分、通訊用的部分，甚至農業等等之類，但在無人機上要布建雷達，一下要收幾千萬的規費，所以會影響到整個無人機產業的發展，所以我想請問NCC，你們還要收這麼多錢嗎？這樣不會影響我們無人機的布建、不會影響這些所謂的關鍵基礎設施嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員給我機會來澄清，這個應該是報導有誤，基本上，它應該是頻率使用費。跟委員報告，NCC所主管的網路審查費、電臺審查費、審驗費、執照費，全部加起來也不過9, 200，如果它適用雷達，雷達定位屬於專用電信的電臺，大概頻率使用費會比較貴。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以是數位部在收，是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，因為這一項業務在數位部成立之前是我主管的，我相對清楚，以前在桃園機場……"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，你一個要收多少錢？因為我時間有限。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：它可以收零元，因為收費辦法第二條規定報行政院符合公共利益是免收。"],["王委員鴻薇：所謂的符合公共利益是哪一些呢？因為本來是軍用的免收，但是我跟你講有八大關鍵基礎設施，不是只有軍用，還有交通、水資源、金融、高科技、能源等等，我想請問一下，是不是只要符合這些關鍵基礎設施的無人機布建雷達統統可以免收，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為現在權責在數位部。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，時間暫停一下，請數位部政次。"],["主席：請政次。"],["王委員鴻薇：趕快來回答一下，如果NCC都這麼大方免收，它將近收一萬塊而已，它可以免收，問題是其他的部分，你們在收費的部分呢？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，我們目前並沒有收到業者的申請，因為無人機有雷達的部分，也有干擾槍的部分，它到底要用什麼樣的頻率，我們並沒有具體的申請資料，所以我們現在很難回答。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在應該怎麼收費，因為按照電信管理法，你們只能按電臺收費。"],["林次長宜敬：委員，可不可以請我們資源司司長來幫忙回答？"],["王委員鴻薇：趕快具體回答。"],["曾司長文方：跟委員報告，第一個，主要是它設的這個是寬頻雷達，寬頻雷達的頻段裡面有涵蓋既有的行動通信頻段，所以如果是一般人來申請的話，其實有嚴重干擾既有通信之虞，所以這個部分我們會審慎去審查它建置的必要性。"],["王委員鴻薇：收費多少？"],["曾司長文方：如果照我們目前看到的，有些業者使用的頻寬很寬的話，可能會上達數千萬。"],["王委員鴻薇：數千萬？因為我剛剛講的這八大關鍵基礎設施，他們應該都會達數千萬，所以像剛才NCC說只要符合公益性或者是關鍵基礎設施，過去是軍用的部分可以免收。我想請問一下，以數發部的部分，符合八大關鍵基礎設施還是要收嗎？還是可以免收呢？"],["曾司長文方：如果是關鍵基礎設施的主管機關評估確有建置需求的話，這個部分由關鍵基礎設施的主管機關來提出相關的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在具體的提出要求和建議，因為無人機發展是國家的政策，不管是產業或作為關鍵基礎設施，但是我們現在的電信管理法並不完備，它都要適用於電臺，所以使得它的規費收費標準變得很高，當然現在有一些是完全商用性的，但是也有屬於關鍵基礎設施的，所以你們應該去把它釐清，現在聽你們的回答，我覺得還是比較模糊的，因為時間有限，可不可以請NCC和數發部針對我關心的公領域部分？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員補充報告，上次交通委員會已經有委員提到這個議題，我們今天下午就會開會，兩個部會來協調確認後續相關的事宜怎麼處理，下午就會開會。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們今天下午開會會有結論嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該會確定一些原則。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們如果有一些結論的話，也趕快提供給外界，也提供給我們委員會，還有我們辦公室，好嗎？可以吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接下來麥玉珍委員提出書面質詢。","請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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那請問一下我們很擔心會不會後來出現暗網出現出售各自的情況"},{"start":116.87,"end":142.984,"text":"這個目前我們並沒有掌握到這個訊息我們希望不要出現這種情況好來接下來來往下看所謂的電信事業用戶號碼的使用管理辦法這是在去年的4月通常會員就說了我們要訂出這個辦法那其中就要把所謂的虛擬行動網路服務就是剛剛很多委員關係的MVNO要納入責成電信事業要加強管理請問代理主委"},{"start":144.028,"end":165.009,"text":"所謂的責成電信事業要加強管理是責成哪個電信事業一類的是不是這邊用語是一類沒錯是一類沒錯嘛好我們看一下根據這個你們就定根據了電管法的第69條你們定了一個管理辦法然後它的法則呢要回歸到電管法的83條沒錯吧是所以裁罰是裁罰一類業者吧"},{"start":166.809,"end":194.466,"text":"如果他是他的企科但是如果他登記電視業就是採訪他MVMO業者我可以採訪到MVMO業者因為他登記電視業他如果來登記的話好往下看好往下看那這次的修法呢我們是針對呢剛剛說的齁這裡面所提到的所謂的批發轉售啊你這裡呢不能夠再轉再做其他的批發轉售是不是這樣他這是第一條那請問一下目前經營虛擬行動網路服務業者有沒有納入"},{"start":195.407,"end":214.484,"text":"目前有居家有來登記好那麼轉售跟使用智慧虛擬碼或者是物聯網號碼以外的用戶號碼有沒有納入這邊是在我們的號碼權管理法有規範有規範好那麼像所謂的黑莓卡就是銷售境外事業所提供的語音及數據等公共服務的有沒有納入"},{"start":215.711,"end":227.01,"text":"黑莓卡他是用國外的電話嘛他來國內只是漫遊那最快我們在打造條例的時候有在很好你講到打造條例馬上看打造條例打造條例第14條他主要目的是"},{"start":227.953,"end":252.795,"text":"預防阻止要做合理的對應措施對不對16條如果對於轉讓的話我們可以限制或停止這都指一類業者他有辦法這樣做第20條是指國際漫遊服務就剛剛講的黑莓卡那麼我們必須確認他們是出境或逾期拘留如果有資料不實或異常使用剛剛提到了異常使用就會處理請問這幾條是否包含了這裡的電信是不是就是說從事的用戶號碼批發轉售服務的電信業者"},{"start":256.428,"end":285.294,"text":"他要登記的話他就是適用就一類好那麼如果他違反了這樣的這個炸防條例那是不是就依法依炸防條例來罰還是依電管法來罰打掉條例本身他是有罰則應該就一定好那我們再往下看好那現在呢你們現在的這個管理辦法訂的這個管理辦法呢第十條這個業者本身他要去做實地的仿事對不對你覺得一類業者有辦法對他的下手做實地仿事嗎"},{"start":286.247,"end":311.045,"text":"這邊我有跟大家解釋過他是做那個一般性的書面就是相對於跟類似類似形式檢查都是一般性的一般性的嘛對不對好既然是一般性的行政檢查他有辦法去察覺或確認異常使用啊有沒有在做批發轉售啊有辦法察覺嗎那個在我們這個執法的立法書裡面有提到是技術可行的情況之下技術可行才對那如果他沒有辦法做得到"},{"start":312.577,"end":340.226,"text":"限制或終止合約他只能用限制跟終止合約嘛他沒有公權力嘛是不是這樣往下一個是所以目前你們的法律給要求的這個業者所謂的一類業者他沒有公權力所以他如何去落實執行稽查我們那稽查其實並不是公權就是我們要他做一般的對要他做嘛一般的檢察役而已好就是KYO嘛那那請問有責無權那他怎麼你們怎麼去落實這個裁法"},{"start":342.793,"end":363.279,"text":"就是說如果他有登記電信事業的話我們就會罰MEMO業者不會罰這個提供號碼提供號碼給他的或者評論號碼給他的那個三大業者所以我最後就是要請你們具體的告訴我們如果要確實執行納管提供電信服務業者有下列行為的時候包括說第一"},{"start":364.459,"end":383.843,"text":"他透過這個MENO或者是轉售或者是說銷售境外那你們有沒有辦法去執行根據這三種樣態提出一個報告說明好不好怎麼去切實執行當然如果你們覺得有困難的或者技術上不可行的也一併說明可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝主委謝謝次長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":760,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時27分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳代理主委。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有數發部林次長。"],["主席：請數位部林次長。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好、次長好。今天我們來談「防制詐騙兒少性剝削要有效，新型態電信事業業者要納管」，我們先看最近的新聞，不曉得兩位知不知道？精誠資訊是資服的龍頭，竟然也出現資安危機，這是過去這兩天的大新聞，它有四萬家企業客戶，包括航空跟金融，台灣大哥大已經要跟精誠合作，瞄準中央部會、醫療業，還有跟多家的第三方支付整合。請問兩位，你們是不是有掌握本案對於政府部門和關鍵基礎設施的影響？先請次長說明。"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，依照現在資安署所掌握到的訊息……資安署主要是保護政府機構以及關鍵基礎設施的資安，目前政府跟關鍵基礎設施並沒有受到這一波資安攻擊的影響，這是第一部分我們掌握到的。第二個部分，這次的資安攻擊應該是來自於一個駭客組織叫Crazy 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Hunter就是之前攻擊我們兩家大型醫院的同一個駭客組織，他們的成員之中至少有一位是中國籍的。事實上，昨天刑事警察局已經起訴一位在中國浙江的羅姓工程師。我們認為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，政府就是要嚴辦嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：是，但是他人可能在中國。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然。請問一下，我們很擔心會不會後來出現暗網、出售個資的情況。"],["林次長宜敬：目前我們並沒有掌握到這個訊息，可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們希望不要出現這種情況。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來，所謂的電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法，去年4月通傳會就說我們要訂出這個辦法，其中要把虛擬行動網路服務，也就是剛剛很多委員關心的MVNO納入，責成電信事業應加強管理。請問代理主委，所謂的責成電信事業應加強管理是責成哪個電信事業？一類的是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：以這邊的用語是一類的沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是一類沒錯嘛！根據電管法第六十九條，你們訂了一個管理辦法，然後罰則要回歸電管法第八十三條沒錯吧！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以裁罰是裁罰一類業者吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果他是他的企客，如果他登記的是電信事業，就是裁罰MVNO業者。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以裁罰到MVNO業者？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，因為他登記的是電信事業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也就是他如果有登記的話。好，我們往下看，這次的修法針對我們剛剛提到的批發轉售，這裡不能夠再做其他的批發轉售，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是針對第十一條，那請問一下目前經營虛擬行動網路服務業者有沒有納入？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：目前有7家來登記。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼轉售跟使用智慧虛擬碼或者是物聯網號碼以外的用戶號碼有沒有納入？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這在我們的號碼使用管理法裡面有規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有規範？好，像所謂的黑莓卡，也就是銷售境外事業所提供的語音及數據等公共服務的部分有沒有納入？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：黑莓卡是用國外的電話號碼，他來國內只是漫遊，針對這一塊，我們在打詐條例有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，你講到打詐條例，我們馬上來看打詐條例，打詐條例第十四條主要目的是預防、阻止或其他合理對應措施，對不對？第十六條規定對於轉讓的話，我們可以限制或停止，這都只有一類業者才有辦法這樣做。第二十條是針對國際漫遊服務，也就是我們剛剛講的黑莓卡，我們必須確認他們是不是出境或逾期居留，如果有資料不實或異常使用就可以處理。請問這裡的電信業者是不是就是指從事用戶號碼批發轉售服務的電信業者？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他來登記的話，他就是適用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是一類？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果他違反了這樣的詐防條例，是不是就依詐防條例來罰？還是依電管法來罰？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：打詐條例本身有罰則，應該就依它來罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看，依照你們現在訂的管理辦法第十條，業者本身要去實地訪視對不對？你覺得一類業者有辦法對他的下手實地訪視嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這邊我有跟大家解釋過了，他是做一般性的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：書面？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是類似形式檢查，都是一般性的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一般性的嘛，對不對？既然是一般性的形式檢查，他有辦法去察覺或確認異常使用或是有沒有在做批發轉售嗎？有辦法察覺嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那個在我們子法的立法說明有提到，是技術可行的情況之下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：技術可行才可以？如果他沒有辦法做得到，就只能限制或終止合約，他只能用限制跟終止合約，因為他沒有公權力嘛，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前你們的法律要求所謂的一類業者，但是他沒有公權力，他如何去落實執行稽查？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們的稽查其實並不是公權力，我們要他做一般的檢查業務而已。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就是KYO嘛！有責無權，請問你們怎麼去落實這個裁罰？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果他有來登記電信事業的話，我們就會罰MVNO業者，不會罰提供號碼給他或評定號碼給他的三大業者。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我最後就是要請你們具體告訴我們，如果要確實執行納管，提供電信服務業者有下列行為的時候，包括他透過MVNO、轉售或銷售境外，你們有沒有辦法去執行？根據這三種樣態提出一個報告說明好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼去確實執行？當然如果你們覺得有困難或者技術上不可行的也一併說明，可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：可以，沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委、謝謝次長。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","現在請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 一樣麻煩我們這個陳代理主委好 陳代主委"},{"start":15.936,"end":39.563,"text":"好戴主委你好這個昨天啊這個又有這個相關的演習嘛軍事的演習那兩岸不斷的衝突對抗當中我想大家可能會比較擔心有會擔心一點就是如果說真的發生什麼事情衝突的時候那我們國內民眾因為畢竟通訊是維持社會安定穩定人心非常重要的一個一個功能嘛"},{"start":40.163,"end":67.536,"text":"那如果說兩岸發生衝突的時候我可以預想到可能會有兩個問題嘛第一個就是連外這個外國的網路可能會因此中斷只能可能用這個地軌衛星來做一些必要時的替代第二個是電力的問題因為像這個天然氣船也因為這樣子不敢來台灣就造成台灣電力的問題所以就這兩個部分我來跟助理做一個請教跟討論啦就是假設我們這個台海發生一些問題導致連外的"},{"start":70.378,"end":94.675,"text":"電纜發生問題那我們目前使用的一些可能通訊軟體有哪一些他可能是沒有辦法用的簡單來講就是說如果那通訊軟體的他的server是在國外的假設對國外的通訊路徑上已經終止的話那大概是沒辦法用但是他目前業者的部件大概是多路由的多有備援基本上他的韌性會相對比較好"},{"start":95.856,"end":122.187,"text":"那也有一些他SF是MIRROR的其實在國內境內都會有一些對應短期內衝擊還不大如果是真的對外完全斷網但是任性的部分部件包括衛星海欄那邊只要維持住的話其實應該都不會不通那我確定就是假設連外的海欄都中斷的情況下那像我們一般的LINE剛剛主委有說如果說他在台灣有使用機房的話"},{"start":123.651,"end":147.222,"text":"如果說通訊業者在我們國內有機房的話或許還是可以通訊的那以LINE來講因為LINE是我們台灣最廣泛使用的嘛或者是臉書的Message或者是可能WhatsApp這三家可能是大家最常用的啦那他哪一家他們三家在如果說真的連外網路斷掉的時候那哪一些可能是分別可以用的可能先讓大家民眾心裡有個底這樣子"},{"start":148.238,"end":163.654,"text":"直接講結果講到極致如果海欖都斷了還有衛星那衛星的話因為頻寬有限所以大家要搶衛星對那一定是國家優先嘛對國家的訊息優先那這三家就是都斷了情況下這三家通訊軟體有辦法用嗎"},{"start":165.445,"end":188.161,"text":"有沒有機房在我們國內國內自己的衛星應該會以這個公共利益的為主就是剛剛委員所講的可能也許是公家機關或者軍方或怎麼樣來為主國安單位為主那如果是國外的衛星但是我要跟主委確認啦就是這三家在我們國內目前是沒有部件機房的所以說聯外中斷的話我們是沒有辦法透過這些通訊軟體去做聯繫的嘛"},{"start":191.283,"end":207.827,"text":"理論上是這樣子那有沒有哪一個軟體應該是我們可以推薦給大家是可以用的應該不存在這種我記得我們國家之前不是有推過一個也是通訊軟體嗎什麼挖的還在嗎JokerJoker還在嗎應該還在我想這個我們總是未雨綢繆啦"},{"start":213.649,"end":228.681,"text":"那如果只在國內使用當然沒問題就沒問題嗎就另類的intranet一樣所以你們可能要去確認一下如果說真的當另外網路斷掉的時候我們國內的民眾可能用哪樣子的一個通訊軟體他是有辦法維持我們聯繫功能的包括我們國家可能要發送訊息的時候也是相對"},{"start":229.821,"end":251.532,"text":"順暢的希望說我們來盤點一下那後續我們當然是會可能要積極的是不是來爭取這些國外我們大家使用的一個通訊軟體的業者我們在台灣也能夠有相對應的機房能夠維持通訊的一個順暢如果說沒有辦法連到他們的國外的機房的話我覺得這可能是我們必要後續要做的不知道主委認不認同認同"},{"start":252.993,"end":272.23,"text":"認同嗎 好 那就麻煩我們的主委那第二個就是當然通訊是一個問題那第二個就是基地還需要電力嘛那電力通訊業者我們就是三大通訊業者佔我們台灣的總體電力的消耗率大概佔比1%而已其實沒有很高 大概1%"},{"start":273.171,"end":294.067,"text":"那當然如果說台海發生一些狀況的時候一些天然氣船可能進不來但是我們國家對於天然氣的儲備的天數也是有限的嘛可能第一天沒問題第二天沒問題但是一旦發生這樣的情況政府一定會開始限電主委您瞭解就是我們基地台的一個限電的編組他是在哪一類嗎"},{"start":295.978,"end":324.521,"text":"這部分我不清楚應該是台電他們的規劃但是跟委員補充報告兩點如果是短時間的市電市電台電供應的市電中斷的話其實我們在基地台那邊有要求業者要做好一些備援的台海被封鎖不可能是幾小時的事我知道你們基地台都有備援電源按這個就是法定有規定幾個小時但一定是我們一定是討論可能幾天幾週或是上月的一個時間所以你們並沒有跟台電了解你們我們的限電邊阻"},{"start":325.843,"end":337.077,"text":"我不知道但是我可以確定一點是因為通訊這些都是關鍵都是CI我相信CI通訊的CI算是所有的東西的一個根本應該是優先訊號還蠻高的你後續就跟台電確認一下就是保障我們國內通訊的韌性"},{"start":342.023,"end":364.911,"text":"光網路的部件不夠我們要有電基地還要能夠運作那通訊才會順暢嘛那就後續因為我知道台電有分就像之前台灣可能停電的時候都有分誰先停電誰先沒有停電嘛醫院不會停電嘛重要的國防設施不會停電嘛那我們通訊設備會不會被停電我想這是我們NCC可能後續要去了解的那或許是不是也是去爭取一下如果說它的限電編組"},{"start":366.451,"end":388.239,"text":"使用電力的流線順序是比較後面的我們是不是要爭取在比較前面一點要確保電力通訊的安全好不好這一點沒問題我們會世界的轉達反應好那就是這兩點那主委這個今天你也站滿久了你休息一下好了謝謝委員謝謝委員那今天我看這個好像法務部次長有來請教一下次長好了來黃次長黃次長黃次長"},{"start":392.128,"end":395.406,"text":"因為都沒人去找我們 不好意思沒禮貌 我們的錯"},{"start":399.988,"end":427.492,"text":"市長好不好意思今天您來了但我當然要問你跟這個可能今天的這個主題沒有關係但您來就問你法務部的事情因為今天早上有這個相關的新聞你非常清楚就是共諜案那有可能被調查然後這個被這個交保的情況嘛那我想確認一下他被交保了嗎我們法務部後續會不會有抗告的行為啊就認為這個危害國家安全重大這個不可以放出來怎麼可以放出來這個案子你了解嗎"},{"start":428.581,"end":454.087,"text":"不好意思因為我今天早上很早就過來這邊了那這個是我們檢查機關在辦理那法務部是做法務行政所以對於個案我們都尊重檢查機關的偵辦那是否有抗告我相信檢察官會以法審著作來處理因為我不是很確認今天早上的新聞這個交保是法院裁定的還是檢察官直接命交保的所以這個部分讓我們在我想站在國家安全的角度啦因為最近都有一些這個"},{"start":456.198,"end":476.418,"text":"收押禁戒的新聞嘛譬如違反個資法收押禁戒就兩件了嘛對不對結果就很多的民眾在質疑怎麼違反國安法然後把機密資料外洩給可能總統所說的敵對私利結果居然交保出來了那大家會擔心你交保出來之後你家還有沒有什麼如果說你平常就有在洩密的一個的習慣的話"},{"start":477.759,"end":486.64,"text":"那你家裡有沒有藏一些機密平常就把一些政府的一些公文重要的文書copy在家裡那你出來的時候你還是有些什麼的可能啊"},{"start":487.455,"end":509.475,"text":"我想這一些都是相關的案情具體個案的狀況都不一樣好不好 我就請我們的次長站在保護國家安全的情況下審慎的來檢視這個案件檢視我們再提出抗告說要的必要以保障我們國家的機密的資訊有任何外洩的可能好 謝謝我們會回答相關的檢查單位 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":715,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩陳代理主委。"],["主席：好，陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：代理主委，你好。昨天又有相關的軍事演習，兩岸不斷的衝突對抗當中，我想大家可能會擔心一點，如果真的發生什麼事情或發生衝突的時候，畢竟通訊有維持社會安定、穩定人心這個非常重要的功能，如果兩岸發生衝突的時候，我可以預想到可能會有兩個問題，第一個是聯外的網路可能會因此中斷，可能只能用低軌衛星來做必要時的替代。第二個是電力的問題，像天然氣船也會因為這樣而不敢來臺灣，就會造成臺灣電力的問題。所以就這兩個部分，我來跟主委請教跟討論，假設臺海發生一些問題，導致聯外的電纜發生問題，我們目前使用的通訊軟體中，有哪一些可能會沒有辦法用？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：簡單來講，如果通訊軟體的server是在國外的，假設對國外的通訊路徑已經終止的話，那大概是沒辦法用，但是目前業者的布建大概是多路由的，都有備援，基本上它的韌性會相對比較好，也有一些的server是mirror的，其實在國內境內都會有一些對應。短期內衝擊還不大，如果真的對外完全斷網，但是這種韌性部分的布建，包括衛星、海纜那邊只要有維持住的話，其實應該不會不通。"],["廖委員先翔：假設聯外的海纜都中斷的情況下，剛剛主委有說，如果通訊業者在我們國內有機房的話，或許還是可以通訊。以LINE來講，因為LINE是我們臺灣最廣泛使用的，或者是臉書的Messenger，或者是WhatsApp，這三家可能是大家最常用的，如果這三家真的聯外網路斷掉的時候，哪一些可能是分別可以用的？可能先讓民眾心裡有個底。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：直接講結果講到極致，如果海纜都斷了，還有衛星，衛星的話，因為頻寬有限，大家在搶衛星的頻寬資源……"],["廖委員先翔：對，一定是國家的訊息優先嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["廖委員先翔：在都斷的情況下，這三家通訊軟體有辦法用嗎？有沒有機房在我們國內？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：國內自己的衛星應該會以公共利益的為主，就是剛剛委員所講的，也許是公家機關、軍方或是國安單位為主，如果是國外的衛星……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，我是要跟主委確認，這三家在我們國內目前是沒有布建機房的，所以如果聯外中斷的話，我們沒有辦法透過這些通訊軟體去聯繫的嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：理論上是這樣子。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有哪一個軟體是我們可以推薦給大家，是可以用的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該不存在這種，除非……"],["廖委員先翔：我記得我們國家之前不是有推過一個通訊軟體嗎？什麼蛙的？還在嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：揪科。"],["廖委員先翔：Juiker，還在嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該還在。"],["廖委員先翔：應該還在嘛！我想總是要未雨綢繆啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果只在國內使用，當然沒問題，就跟另類的intranet一樣，那沒問題。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們可能要去確認一下，當聯外網路真的斷掉的時候，國內民眾可能用哪樣子的通訊軟體是有辦法維持我們聯繫功能的，包括我們國家可能要發送訊息的時候，也是相對順暢的，希望你們可以來盤點一下，後續可能也要積極爭取這些大家常使用的國外通訊軟體業者在臺灣也能夠有相對應的機房，以維持通訊的順暢。如果沒有辦法連到他們國外的機房的話，我覺得這可能是我們後續要做的，不知道主委認不認同？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：認同。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那就麻煩主委。當然通訊是一個問題，第二個就是基地台需要電力，三大通訊業者占臺灣總體電力的消耗率占比大概1%而已，其實沒有很高，大概1%。當然，如果臺海發生一些狀況的時候，一些天然氣船可能進不來，我們國家對於天然氣的儲備天數也是有限的，可能第一天沒問題，第二天沒問題，但一旦發生這樣的情況，政府一定會開始限電。主委，您了解我們基地台的限電編組是在哪一類嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分我不清楚，應該是台電的規劃，但是跟委員補充報告兩點，如果是短時間台電供應的市電中斷的話，其實我們在基地台那邊有要求業者要做好一些備援的……"],["廖委員先翔：臺海被封鎖不可能是幾小時的事。我知道你們基地台都有備援電源，這個就是法定有規定幾個小時，但我們一定是討論可能幾天、幾週或是上月的時間。你們並沒有跟台電了解我們的限電編組嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我不知道，但是我可以確定一點是，因為通訊這些都是CI，我相信通訊的CI算是所有東西的一個根本……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：優先性應該還蠻高的。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，你後續就跟台電確認一下，保障我們國內通訊的韌性，光網路的布建不夠，我們要有電，基地台要能夠運作，通訊才會順暢。因為我知道台電有分類，就像之前臺灣停電的時候都有分誰先停電、誰沒有停電，像醫院不會停電、重要的國防設施不會停電，那我們通訊設備會不會被停電？我想這是NCC可能後續要去了解的，是不是也去爭取一下，如果它的限電編組的使用電力優先順序是比較後面的，我們是不是要爭取在比較前面一點，以確保電力通訊的安全，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒問題，我們會適切的轉達、反映。"],["廖委員先翔：那就這兩點。主委，今天你也站滿久了，你休息一下好了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：今天我看法務部次長有來，請教一下次長。"],["主席：黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：次長好。不好意思，今天您來了，當然我要問你的問題可能跟今天的主題沒有關係，但您來了就問您法務部的事情，因為今天早上有相關的新聞，你非常清楚，就是共諜案有可能被調查然後被交保的情況，我想確認一下他被交保了嗎？法務部後續會不會有抗告的行為？就是認為這個危害國家安全重大應該不可以放出來，怎麼可以放出來？這個案子您了解嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：不好意思，因為我今天早上很早就過來這邊，這個是我們檢察機關在辦理，法務部是做法務行政，所以對於個案我們都尊重檢察機關的偵辦，是否要抗告，我相信檢察官會依法審酌之後來處理。因為我不是很確認今天早上的新聞，這個交保是法院裁定還是檢察官直接命交保的，所以這個部分容我們再確認……"],["廖委員先翔：站在國家安全的角度，因為最近都有一些收押禁見的新聞，譬如違反個資法收押禁見就兩件了，對不對？結果就有很多民眾在質疑，怎麼違反國安法，可能把機密資料外洩給總統所說的敵對勢力，結果居然交保出來了？大家會擔心他交保出來之後，如果他平常就有洩密習慣的話，他家裡有沒有藏一些機密？平常就會把政府的一些公文、重要文書copy在家裡，他出來之後還是有洩密的可能啊！"],["黃次長世杰：我想這一些都是相關的案情，具體個案的狀況都不一樣，我們會尊重檢察官的……"],["廖委員先翔：我想請次長站在保護國家安全的情況下，審慎檢視這個案件，檢視有沒有再提出抗告、收押的必要，以防止我們國家的機密資訊有任何外洩的可能。再拜託次長。"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們會轉答給相關的檢察單位，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","接下來由鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請陳黛主委好 陳黛主委主委好 我們今天的會議主要是針對兩項議題進行討論一個是將干擾無人機訊號等相關設備納入第一設平器材的管理規範那再來是針對電信管理法的審查那本席今天就今天"},{"start":34.722,"end":51.123,"text":"所列之審查一案就叫主委那本期在去年的10月7日打詐專案報告中曾經就第二類電信業者是否應該由NCC直接管理提出質詢那當時是溫柏中副主委備詢那我們先來看到法務部的統計資料顯示"},{"start":53.005,"end":75.786,"text":"雖然113年的詐騙案件數跟112年比起來 瑞有下降可是還是高於111年的16801件這顯示出詐騙案根本沒有趨緩的 還是不斷的在發生那今年的1月至2月 全國地方的地檢署它新收到的電信詐騙案 它的案件數則達到3075件"},{"start":78.668,"end":107.009,"text":"根據打詐儀表板來看同期間的詐騙案件數為兩萬三千八百九十三件那詐騙的金額高達一百五十六億兩千七百三十五萬那不管是哪一個單位的數據來看很明顯詐騙依然橫行受害的人還是不斷增加那我們接著看到電信管理法在一百零八年六月二十六日的時候公佈那當初立法的目的是在於接個原電信法的制度沒錯吧"},{"start":107.954,"end":122.273,"text":"是部分接軌它但是也要創造一個讓業者有服務讓整個國家社會有服務創新的一些空間跟動能所以會解除相對跟資訊服務業比較接近那一塊的區塊我們就比較解除列管"},{"start":123.114,"end":140.459,"text":"謝謝主委那當時也有要求單位要三年內完成轉軌那隨著轉軌完成那至此第二類的電信業者他不用再向NCC申請那他也不再受到NCC來監理而是改以公司法為主要規範那目前是在經濟部作為主管機關"},{"start":142.199,"end":169.124,"text":"所以沒錯吧但是還是會有原來二類還是有持續來登記因為他有些他登記完之後對他的營業會比較有利比方說他要投地方政府的一些標案如果他來登記的話對他而言是一次一個加分的就目前的登記數是多少就有二類目前登記數是60幾家是60幾家那當時電管法上路108年7月的時候當時的全國第二類電信業者大概有幾家"},{"start":170,"end":185.013,"text":"就有的是216家216家因為我這邊本席這邊看到是386家108年7月的統計那所以這專會完成目前這些業者他有沒有收到NCC"},{"start":185.673,"end":214.05,"text":"實質的監理跟我們報告我剛剛講是純粹IASP因為二類的範圍很大它裡都有IASP有MVMO也有其他價值服務今天是386家是所有的二類家種所以你有提到IASP那本席今天要跟您討論的會是著重在MVMO那我們現在我們看到有386家那轉軌以後大多數他們都沒有登記也不受到實質的查核那這些業者是否現在還在提供VOIP還有簡訊SIM卡等服務"},{"start":217.078,"end":235.946,"text":"這邊簡訊信卡的服務其實如果他是做MVML的話他可以兩種身份一個是他用MVMLMVML現在還是有一家業者那如果他是他不想用MVML身份那他就變成三大業者的企客那他現在很多他現在很多都是他目前是第二類電信業者那都有走在監理的邊緣您認為這樣的架構合理嗎"},{"start":239.148,"end":255.528,"text":"就是我們在全能說維持社會公益公益打債是社會公益之一是我們要全能還有這個業者的創新發展我們在一直在動態的所以現在您提到打債那電信轉軌制度已經上路那可是第二類的電信業者頻頻捲入詐騙案這是您清楚吧"},{"start":256.926,"end":279.476,"text":"原來的這種情況我們知道我們現在看到前年的2月桃園地檢署查獲不肖的第二類電信業者與詐騙集團合作都在發送了1193萬封的詐騙簡訊這個數量非常的驚人那不僅如此還有中華電信合作的第二類電信業者涉嫌將民眾的個資外洩以防治安危機那更嚴重的是呢前年4月爆發三家第二類"},{"start":280.797,"end":298.892,"text":"的電信業設詐詐騙案那檢方也查出NCC的前委員也擔任其中一家的業者顧問那並且透過他兒子的帳戶每個月收取1500到1600的酬勞那對於這樣的現象第二類電信業者他已經是打詐的破口之一了主委您怎麼看"},{"start":300.701,"end":320.859,"text":"就是針對打架部分我們要針對說比較跟打架有關的我們都持續在努力像MVM我們去年就已經把他納管了那ISP這次的報告我們也提出我們的看法我們也認同說ISP要適度納管要適度納管那可是目前現在"},{"start":323.072,"end":350.301,"text":"所以納管的 您納管的定義是你們有做出什麼樣的管理跟約束比方說FMO它目前有來登記的在119年轉軌的中間它是7家那電管法施行之後它有7家只要它有來登記它就是電信事業電信事業就會要承擔電信管理法裡頭那去年事業開放電信事業任務號碼管理辦法那您目前掌握到的總共幾家"},{"start":351.812,"end":380.072,"text":"如果MVM的話就7家就7家所以他不到10家那這項辦法他有沒有強制力呃有有他有什麼樣的強制力就是說他違反的話因為他是母法授權他違反的話一樣受到電信管理法母法的一些一些罰則注意請教第二類電信業是否一定要向NCC申請看他有沒有符合我們現在第五條的規定說他要取得一些頻率資源那有申請的才會被NCC視為第二類電信業那沒有申請的叫做什麼"},{"start":381.896,"end":399.373,"text":"我們是自願登記的那沒有申請的呢沒有申請的話廣義上他就是廣義的資訊服務業者沒有申請的是不是叫企業用戶他是不是以企業用戶的身份存在如果他是跟電信業三大合作的話他是他的企業客戶那是誰來做管理"},{"start":400.396,"end":420.031,"text":"如果是契克的話那他跟三大之間是有契約關係靠契約關係來約束那目前是不是由第一類的電信業者來做管理MVMO那一塊目前因為他有來登記的話他就是要自己承擔責任義務他自己要承擔責任那請教主委這樣的制度第一類的電信業者有法律上的公權力嗎"},{"start":423.092,"end":441.4,"text":"我知道委員要反映說業者反映說有什麼長臂管理這塊是沒有的我們跟他說過好幾次所以我們都知道第一類的電信業者他不具備法律上的公權力那這樣情況下第二類業者他真的會完全配合第一類業者的約束跟管理嗎"},{"start":443.926,"end":463.411,"text":"公委報告兩個層次第一個他跟電信業者會有簽約如果他的違反他契約的一些規定的話三大業者可以跟他解約如果您是第二類的電信業者那當第一類的電信業者向您調閱客戶資料的話你會不會提供"},{"start":464.401,"end":487.805,"text":"這一部分我們並沒有要求也不在規範你的要求我是說假使如果你是第二類電信業者你會把你的資料交給第一類嗎這一部分應該必須要符合法規法規上不允許的話我是如果是我我是不會你是不會啊那所以你怎麼會覺得那第二類的電信業者他會據實以告所以這一部分我們的執法委員會並沒有要求要做這種事情"},{"start":488.598,"end":508.652,"text":"那這個三代固有業者的移入我們可以跟他說明嗎所以我們都看到第一類的電信業者來管理來監督自己的潛在競爭者也就是第二類的電信業者你覺得這樣子合理嗎只是他們誤解啦其實他們有一個過濾因為我們3月20日跟他們說明這是不是制度上面的一個漏洞"},{"start":509.897,"end":526.182,"text":"我沒有跟他說明過關鍵的動作是檢視其實他只要做到一般的檢查義務我們不是要他做到高階的善良管理人的義務本席最後認為因為有鑑於現在第二類的信業者已經是詐騙案件"},{"start":527.595,"end":539.31,"text":"裡面的破口那每次都是第二被查出都是第二類業者的關係那也希望NCC可以重視這個問題那提出具體的改善好沒問題我們會努力謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時9分）謝謝主席，主席，有請陳代主委。"],["主席：好，陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。我們今天的會議主要是針對兩項議題進行討論，一個是將干擾無人機信號等相關設備納入第一級射頻器材的管理規範中，再來是針對電信管理法的審查，本席要就今天所列之審查議案就教主委。","本席在去年10月7日打詐專案報告中，曾經就第二類電信業者是否應該由NCC直接管理提出質詢，當時是翁柏宗副主委備詢的。我們先來看法務部的統計資料顯示，雖然113年的詐騙案件數跟112年比起來略有下降，可是還是高於111年的16萬801件，這顯示出詐騙案根本沒有趨緩，還是不斷地在發生。","今年的1月至2月，全國的地檢署新收到的電信詐騙案，案件數達到3萬75件，根據打詐儀表板來看，同期間的詐騙案件數為2萬3,893件，詐騙的金額高達156億2,735萬，不管是看哪一個單位的數據，很明顯，詐騙依然橫行，受害的人還是不斷增加。主委，我們接著看到，電信管理法在108年6月26日公布，當初立法的目的是在接軌原電信法的制度，沒錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，部分接軌它，但也要創造一個讓整個國家社會有服務創新的空間跟動能，所以對於跟資訊服務業相對比較接近的那個區塊，我們就解除列管。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝主委。當時也有要求單位要在3年內完成轉軌，隨著轉軌的完成，自此第二類的電信業者不用再向NCC申請，也不再受NCC監理，而是改以公司法為主要規範，目前是以經濟部作為主管機關，主委，沒錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒錯，但原來的二類還是有持續來登記，因為有些登記完之後對它的營業比較有利，比方說，它要投一些地方政府的標案，如果它來登記的話，對它而言是一個加分的項目。"],["邱委員若華：請問主委，目前的登記數是多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：舊有的二類目前的登記數是六十幾家。"],["邱委員若華：當時電管法上路，108年7月當時全國的第二類電信業者大概有幾家？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：舊有的是216家。"],["邱委員若華：因為本席這邊看到的是386家，這是108年7月的統計。隨著轉軌的完成，目前這些業者有沒有受到NCC實質的監理？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我剛剛講的是純粹的IASP，因為二類的範圍很大，裡頭有IASP、有MVNO，也有其它的加值服務，之前的386家是所有的二類加總。我剛才跟你……"],["邱委員若華：主委有提到IASP，但本席今天要跟你討論的著重在MVNO，現在我們看到有386家，轉軌後大多數他們都沒有登記，也不受實質的查核，這些業者現在是否還在提供VoIP還有簡訊SIM卡等服務？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有關簡訊SIM卡的服務，其實如果它是做MVNO的話，它可以有兩種身分，一個是它用MVNO，MVNO現在還是有一家業者；如果它不想用MVNO身分的話，它就變成三大業者的企客等等的方式來處理……"],["邱委員若華：它目前是第二類電信業者，都游走在監理的邊緣，您認為這樣的架構合理嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們在權衡維持社會公義，打詐也是社會公益之一，也是我們要權衡的，還有業者的創新發展，我們也一直在動態地權衡……"],["邱委員若華：既然主委提到打詐，電信轉軌制度已經上路，可是第二類的電信業者頻頻捲入詐騙案，這事您清楚吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：原來的這種情況我們知道。"],["邱委員若華：我們現在看到前年2月桃園地檢署查獲不肖的第二類電信業者與詐騙集團合作，對外發送了1,193萬封詐騙簡訊，這個數量非常地驚人。不僅如此，還有中華電信合作的第二類電信業者涉嫌將民眾的個資外洩引發資安危機。更嚴重的是，前年4月爆發3家第二類的電信業涉及詐騙案，檢方也查出NCC的前委員也擔任其中一家業者的顧問，並且透過他兒子的帳戶，每個月收取1,500到1,600的酬勞。對於這樣的現象，第二類電信業者已經是打詐的破口之一了，主委，您怎麼看？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：針對打詐的部分，我們要針對跟打詐比較直接有關的，我們都持續在努力，像MVNO我們去年就已經把它納管了，IASP在這次的報告中，也提出了我們的看法，我們也認同IASP要適度納管。"],["邱委員若華：要適度納管，主委，您納管的定義是，你們有做出什麼樣的管理跟約束嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：比方說，MVNO目前有來登記的，在109年轉軌的中間是17家，電管法施行之後有7家，只要它有來登記，它就是電信事業，是電信事業就要承擔電信管理法裡頭對電信事業的……"],["邱委員若華：去年4月開放了電信事業用戶號碼管理辦法，你目前掌握到的總共幾家？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果是MVNO的話就是7家。"],["邱委員若華：就7家，所以它不到10家。那這項辦法有沒有強制力？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["邱委員若華：它有什麼樣的強制力？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為它是母法授權，他違反的話，一樣受到電信管理法母法的一些罰則。"],["邱委員若華：請教主委，第二類電信業是否一定要向NCC申請？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：看他有沒有符合現在第五條的規定說，他要取得一些頻率資源或號碼資源……"],["邱委員若華：有申請的才會被NCC視為第二類電信業，那沒有申請的叫做什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，我們是採自願登記，他願意來自願登記……"],["邱委員若華：是自願登記，那沒有申請的呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有申請的話，他就是廣義的資訊服務業者。"],["邱委員若華：沒有申請的是不是叫企業用戶？他是不是以企業用戶的身分存在？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果他是跟三大業者合作的話，他是他的企業客戶。"],["邱委員若華：那是誰來做管理？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果是企客的話，他跟三大之間是有契約關係，那就是靠契約關係來約束。"],["邱委員若華：目前是不是由第一類的電信業者來做管理？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：MVNO那一塊，他有來登記的話，他就是要自己承擔責任義務。"],["邱委員若華：他自己要承擔責任，請教主委，針對這樣的制度，第一類的電信業者有法律上的公權力嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我知道委員要幫業者反映，有什麼長臂管理？這塊是沒有的，我們跟他說過好幾次，3月20日……"],["邱委員若華：所以我們都知道第一類的電信業者不具備法律上的公權力，在這樣的情況下，第二類業者真的會完全配合第一類業者的約束跟管理嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，分兩個層次，第一個，他跟電信業者會簽約，如果他違反契約內的規定的話，三大業者可以跟他解約……"],["邱委員若華：如果你是第二類電信業者，當第一類電信業者向你調閱客戶資料的話，你會不會提供？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這一部分，我們並沒有要求，也不在規範裡頭……"],["邱委員若華：我是說假使你是第二類電信業者，你會把你的資料交給第一類嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這一部分必須要符合法規，法規上不允許的話，如果是我，我是不會。"],["邱委員若華：你是不會啊，所以你怎麼會覺得第二類電信業者會據實以告呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：所以這一部分我們的子法裡頭並沒有要求要做這種事情，三大既有業者的一些疑慮，我們也跟他說明了。"],["邱委員若華：所以我們都看到了，要第一類電信業者來管理、來監督自己的潛在競爭者，也就是第二類電信業者，你覺得這樣子合理嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實他們誤解了，其實他們有過濾，因為我們3月20日有跟他們說明……"],["邱委員若華：這是不是制度上面的一個漏洞？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們有跟他說明過了，關鍵的動詞「檢視」，其實他只要做到一般的檢查義務，我們不是要他做到高階的善良管理人的義務。"],["邱委員若華：本席最後認為，有鑑於現在第二類電信業者已經是詐騙案件裡面的破口，每次被查出來的都是第二類業者的關係，所以希望NCC可以重視這個問題，提出具體的改善或修法。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題，我們會努力，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇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簡訊這邊我們就可以引入商業機制，可以事先去請業者來做查核它的內容，不可以有網址、不可以有電話、不可以有短網址連結，有的話必須要是有核過的、變成白名單的才可以通過，否則的話都會攔阻，都不會發送出去。"],["李委員昆澤：所以我們必須更進一步探討這種詐騙門號的攔阻跟相關的後續作為，我們必須來討論一下它的成效。我們看到2024年全年電信業者總共攔阻了798萬則的詐騙簡訊，有922萬境外的詐騙來電，並且停用了2,395門涉嫌詐騙的門號。但是我們必須要來討論，是否這種技術攔阻的量有提高，但是無法觸及這種詐騙行為的轉移，就是我們必須針對這種攔阻的總數跟詐騙金額的變化，以及產生這種詐騙案件，我們必須要去針對攔阻的成效來進行交叉的比對分析，是不是真的能說明攔阻越多，詐騙越少，但是看起來攔阻很多，詐騙這樣的狀況還是非常嚴重。主委說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：簡單來講，從結果來看，因為傳統的、可信賴的網路國際來話，我們該警示的警示，該攔阻的攔阻，所以對詐騙集團而言，那條路幾乎是被擋得很嚴重，所以它已經轉移了，跟委員所提到的一樣，它轉移到其他路徑，轉移到網路、轉移到網路電話等等，所以我們原來的防禦措施在可信賴網路，不管是國際電話也好、國內的，還是假冒國內的電話，那一塊都持續在辦理。至於新轉移的陣地，我們也有加強防禦，比如說網路電話這一塊，我們近期也會推出一些措施，包括攔阻、包括一些語音警示等等。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，我要請教一下，我們現在停用了2,395門的詐騙電話來源，但有沒有建立黑名單的追蹤機制？說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：詐騙電話剛剛跟委員報告過，在我們打詐條例的三振條款，在165那邊的資料庫裡頭其實都有建立，各家電信業者也可以進去看申請的人是不是涉詐，是的話就是高風險客戶，就會有一些管制，他就……"],["李委員昆澤：這種高風險的客戶，有沒有重複開戶的問題，或是有以假人頭帳號繼續作案這樣的狀況，NCC有察覺到這樣的情形嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：人頭的部分是比較難查，這涉及到要查破的技術相對比較高，早期的話，可能是我們要求電信業者做好KYC，比方說，他帶著一堆人去門市申辦，業者的風控機制就可以過濾掉、處理掉很多。當然，現在他們也慢慢變得比較靈活，這一塊的KYC還是要持續，但是這個效果有在遞減，我們會要求電信業者採用新的風控方式處理。"],["李委員昆澤：NCC針對這種KYC的客戶確認機制，或是對相關的詐騙電信、簡訊，雖然有初步的作為，但是民眾對成效還是很不滿，我們還是有很大的檢討跟改進的空間。","最後的時間，我要來請教第一級電信管制射頻器材的使用，我們看到NCC的說明，本次新增了第一級電信管制射頻器材使用計畫相關規定，其原因係第一級器材功率強大且影響範圍廣泛。管理器材必須嚴格而明確，NCC是否有準備足夠的人力、資源來因應可能增加的這種申訴或行政負荷？說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：兩點回報，第一點，第一級的，像這邊所顯示的，最簡單的就是機場，或是CIA所在地的一些房子、無人機入侵干擾的，需要有電波遮斷器，那一塊就是典型的第一級電信管制射頻器材；第二個，委員提到我們自己同仁審核的部分，因為量的增加，從過往的兩萬多，變成一年四萬多，我們也提升、規劃朝向類AI或以自動化的方式來處理，以減輕人力的負擔，這一塊我們打算編在明年的預算裡頭處理。"],["李委員昆澤：目前這樣可以因應相關的申訴或是行政的負荷嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是勉力前行，我們會持續處理，就是同仁辛苦一點，等到我們自動化相對應的軟、硬體到位之後，可能情況就會比較改善。"],["李委員昆澤：必須加緊相關的作為。以上。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","現在請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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的，我們當初為什麼會以5件為標準？民眾身上以前就只有手機，大不了再一個Notebook，現在這個社會則是手機、耳機什麼統統有，它有可能是在境內買好的、完成合格審查的產品，因為旅遊的關係而出入境，所以件數會稍微多一點。到底件數達到什麼程度，我們會認為它不是自用或商業行為？過去的規定就是……"],["黃委員健豪：1到5台算是自用嘛！"],["蔡處長國棟：對，我們是這樣想的。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，我要問的問題是，我希望你們1年內要討論這件事情的邏輯是一致的，因為我覺得很直觀的一個疑問是，如果今天我自己從國外帶1至5台進來是沒有收取審查費的，但是我上網訂購任何國外的新品，反而要收審查費，本來規定的邏輯是長這個樣子，那我的意思是說，如果你們的理由是為了維護國內電波秩序，這樣就很奇怪，我自己出國帶回來的，你們不用管嗎？"],["蔡處長國棟：沒有，還是要跟委員報告，所有的產品進來，我們都希望它符合我們國家規範上面的要求，它的確還是有可能會干擾，所以我們每年都會處理民眾陳情電波干擾的案件，這時我們就會透過我們的電波監測站去測，如果測得到，那就好，如果民眾的檢舉有更明確的位置，我們都會出動行動監測車到附近去處理。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我也跟委員補充報告，舉個例子好了，Wi-Fi國內跟國外有的開的頻段不一樣，假設美規是開100個單位這麼寬的頻寬，國內可能只開70個單位，如果它進來之後，對於後面我們沒有開的30個單位，它在使用的時候就會干擾國內那30個單位的原有使用者，那就是電波干擾，所以我們必須要看它的規格。"],["黃委員健豪：技術問題你們之前的確都說明過，我只是很疑惑，我的點在於，自己帶5台不用收費，網購2台就開始要收費，這個事情我們會覺得邏輯不一致、很奇怪嘛！"],["蔡處長國棟：是，所以這一次根據眾開講上面的民意，我們就決定如同剛才主委報告的，2台以下自用的不會再收審查費。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，反正今年你們要檢討這件事情，我還是希望第一個，你們要去邀請真正的、前面魯明哲委員提到的，包括消基會、代表消費者權益這部分的聲音要出來，不是只有你們的意見，應該要有真正使用者的意見在裡面，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題，我們會改進。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來要討論的是修法的部分。有關電信詐騙，今天數位部和法務部代表都在場，不過時間應該不太夠，下午再來處理。我們要先討論的是，就數字來看，電信詐騙案件數從110年到現在的確是在攀升，去年有稍微下降一點，當然我不知道主因是什麼，但是其中一個原因是二類電信的氾濫，二類電信過去在電信法時代是有管制的，現在進入新的法令之後，我們把它解封了。解封本來是為了鼓勵產業創新，但是創新到現在，我覺得它變成詐騙集團很好利用的工具。我要問主委的是，過去既然能把二類電信列管，為什麼現在新的法令反而不想管？原因在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：主要有幾個原因，第一個是因為原來二類電信有很多範圍和資訊服務業有灰色地帶的互相交融，我舉個例子，像疫情期間很多人使用的會議軟體，在過去二類電信裡頭就有語音會議服務、視訊會議服務，這些在疫情期間其實很多是國外的app，如果那些都納管的話，對照回來就會覺得不可行，因為很多是app，是在網路上而且是國外的東西，在管理上要認定、要納管都有實質上的困難。另外一個要補充說明的就是，二類的範圍很廣，舊有二類裡頭包括MVNO等等，MVNO那一塊我們已經回頭納管了，還有一些加值服務，它有來登記電信事業的那些，我們都有在納管當中。今天要討論的IASP這一塊，我們內部討論意見也是贊成要回過頭來再把它納管。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委。兩個部分，第一個是去年7月大家很努力通過詐欺犯罪危害防制條例（就是所謂的打詐條例），裡面有提到電信業會納管的部分被認定是電管法第三條第一項第一款指的電信事業，但是在我今天提的修法版本裡面，也有到底哪些屬於電信事業的相關規定。因為按照現行法令，MVNO本來是二類電信，你們有列管，但是你們納管是請三大業者去做管理耶！我的意思是說，為什麼這些所謂的二類業者不能由你們NCC直接管？而且如果它沒有被列為電信業者的話，它是不是就不屬於這個打詐條例定義的電信事業？會不會有這個問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員補充回報，第一點，剛剛那個解讀是在去年我們管理辦法發布之前，確實是有些MVNO沒有來登記，然後它就變成三大業者的企業客戶，這一塊就會有剛剛這種情況，但是我們去年就已經在子法納管了，MVNO這一塊其實已經在納管當中，如果今天委員提案要把它從子法拉到法律位階，我們也贊同。"],["黃委員健豪：贊同嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：贊同。"],["黃委員健豪：好。主委，這樣的話我們就有共識，我希望稍後的討論能夠加速一點，因為三大業者也有陳情，就是我們把MVNO這些所謂二類電信從電信法時代的納管，然後去年變成是三大電信要管，但他們沒有實權，他們沒辦法真正的去管控這些人，對不對？所以導致……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：三大業者的疑慮是怕長臂管理，這一塊其實我們有跟他們說明過，我們最近一次3月20日還找他們來開會……"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，主委，這個我幫他們說明一下，因為你是主管機關，你們這樣說他們就只能這樣做啊！所以今天為什麼會有這個修法，原因也是因為三大電信業者在實務上、在執行面上沒辦法去強迫對方，當然最後是罰錢，可以罰錢沒錯啦！罰錢是他們對這些所謂的二類電信業者可能在商業上可以處罰，但是政府目前是罰所謂的三大電信業者，他們覺得這個頻寬或這個訊號是由政府提供的，然後他們變成代理人，他們沒有實際所謂的不管是行政權也好，或者是刑事權也好，他們沒有辦法去要求，或者是約束這些業者在轉賣出去之後，後續不管是詐騙集團，或是剛剛召委也有提到的像黑莓卡等等這些境外業者要怎麼使用，所以我覺得這對三大電信業者來講，造成管理上的困難。","其實今天我覺得修法核心的目的與精神是說，把這個所謂的管理權一樣就收回NCC嘛！你們本來就要管了，只是這一段時間是把它委託給三大電信業者管，今天只是把真正的管理權收回政府部門，我不知道這件事情NCC支不支持？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：電信業者給委員的意見，應該是在MVNO納入子法之前的一些意見，後來我們大概都處理之後，我們也跟它溝通過，其實這邊他們都有共識，只要它有來登記電信事業，那個權利義務都會在那個電信事業。有被納管的二類，到時候它登記為電信事業，它就會有這個義務在身上，這部分是大家有共識的，所以我們這邊也支持委員將MVNO拉到母法的位階，這部分我們是支持的。"],["黃委員健豪：登記不登記是強制的還是他們自主的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果把MVNO拉到母法，那就是變成強制的，就是母法電信管理法有明列的，那就是強制的。"],["黃委員健豪：好。主委，其實這就是我的目的啦！因為現在很多是沒有登記的，它沒有登記，它就不屬於剛剛我提到的打詐條例裡面電信法的規範範圍裡面，我們希望這些在灰色地帶遊走的業者能夠被列入真正電信法能夠管制的範圍，這樣子對於所謂的打詐才有辦法執行，如果它不受這個打詐法規範的話，其實我們今天打詐法討論的都是正派經營的業者，他們有主動來申請、他們主動來登記，當然沒有這個問題，今天問題就是這些被動的、還不想來登記的，但是它同時一樣可以使用這樣子功能的業者，我們反而管不到吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，委員這個觀點我們認同，就是只要符合跟打詐有關的，該納管就納管，但是也要注意實務上有沒有比例原則等等，假設它跟打詐相對無關，比方說舊有的二類，很多詐騙集團根本不可能使用的像語音服務電話那些東西，它根本不會使用，那些其實就沒有必要全部的電信服務都納管，我們的意見是這樣子。"],["黃委員健豪：好，細項我們可以來討論，但是我希望原則上能夠往這個方向走，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：主委謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","現在我們請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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可以學習。所以我今天在講，你們這個審查的過程中，包括從去年6月27號有兩次委員會決定，通過了收費辦法；9月5號你也講，要跟大家說明一下，9月5號在你們大禮堂也辦了收費標準的公開說明會，怕大家不知道；然後10月30號，接下來就確定了收費的標準，2月5號開始收費。這中間我們看到都是你內部的行政決定、委員會的考量、你們的決策，當然法律有授權你們，這個部分750塊有沒有經過立法院？你們自己的決定嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我先補充第一點，對外諮詢意見的話，在草案階段我們有對外諮詢意見，這是第一點補充。第二點補充，這次我們法規，委員會通過之後，我們還有兩次以上，在辦理自用進口器材的官網首頁再宣告，有再公告讓人家知道。","回到剛剛委員的第二個問題，內部的討論其實之前在去年6月以來，還有一些非正式的公開說明會，比方有一些報關行等等，這些都有持續在溝通。但是自用部分在標準作業程序上，在通過委員會、10月30號之前確實這邊是沒有異議的。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這部分是你們自己的行政考量、行政的裁量，你們覺得需要，你們行政機關有法令的授權。但法令授權在你考量的時候，我覺得應該要有更多徵詢到未來會被徵收到的，你的政策改變會影響到的部分，他需要參與意見的表達，這個部分也沒有經過立法院的審議，那跟立法院任何一個公聽會或者委員的任何一個臨時提案有什麼關係嗎？750塊，有關係嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有關係，因為這個就是法規命令，這個收費標準就是法規命令，法規命令的SOP就是，在預告階段必須要撒出去給不特定的對象，還有一些相關機關包括消基會等等，都會來諮詢意見。所以剛剛跟委員報告，我們那個階段其實大概都有諮詢，包括這次提案，「眾開講」平臺都有在諮詢。"],["魯委員明哲：簡單來講，我們很多委員都一樣，公告實施民怨開始的時候，我沒注意到這個問題，我們現在特別調你資料的時候，看到9月5號你們辦一個非常盛大的公聽會，叫說明會、公開說明會。我在想，因為你們在整個修正這個規費部分，當然可能有很多項，其中有一項是個人自用的，郵寄2部以下的，這個部分可能只是其中之一。可是我不知道你們當時有沒有想到它的影響、後座力有多大，後面的後座力感覺你們也沒開始應變，讓我感覺其實你們剛開始想得好像沒有這麼嚴重。我也發覺，你們當時想的，我看到了，你們在公開說明會，不是說光網路公告隨便的人都可以來，你這次邀請了二十幾個單位，從中華電信到相關的進口公司、銷售公司，包括什麼香港商、電信公司，所有的企業、法人都邀了。請問一下，750塊，個人、民生的，自己用的、郵寄的，你當天安排誰去做這個正式會議的代表？你有邀請消基會嗎？或者你安排這些公司，誰代表？有沒有嘛？你就不要辯了，有還是沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，因為個人自用是不特定的大眾，我們在草案諮詢階段也有同步在「眾開講」平臺裡頭公告，眾開講平臺是對不特定對象，就像後來人家在提案的那個平臺一樣，所以那個是for不特定對象的，我們草案都有放在那邊去諮詢意見。"],["魯委員明哲：你決策的時候在想的事情跟結果發生的事情，顯然差距非常大，所以我們現在倒過來說，以後不要再發生這樣的事情了！像這樣你會面臨很大的……我跟你講，金額上可能是，這些企業也許會變動得比較大，但是以人數、影響到的人，絕對是個人的……郵購已經變成一種現在買東西的型態。所以我是倒過來說，你當天連消基會或者包括這些不管是電玩代表或者常用這些的個人業者，其實有一些代表，我相信在第一階段就會反映意見給你，我也希望你們能夠注意這個問題，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題，我們會記取這次教訓。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我今天要問的第二個問題，沒辦法，時代在變，近8年我們看到有線電視訂戶的變化，從106年全國兩千一百多萬戶，平均而言，我們現在兩千三百多萬人，好像差不多兩千多萬，因為搞不好一戶有兩個，甚至有公司的部分，一直到去（113）年下降了16%，訂戶逐年下降。逐年下降已經變成一個趨勢，甚至有線電視業者自己也改變，他也變成透過網路了，他也不是有線電視，有些也走無線。這樣的趨勢，第一個，對你的一些業務或者相關服務、未來的想法、你的政策，我覺得這個趨勢是重要的一個點，現在在逐年下降的過程中。我講其中一個點，廣電基金是隨著用戶量，訂戶數乘以資費，再乘以1%，會變成全臺灣注入你的……我用簡稱，名字太長了，就以廣電基金來看，因為這個趨勢，廣電基金也從8年前的大概一年可以收3.6億，到去（113）年是2.8億，降幅事實上比戶數降得更多，為什麼？因為這幾年又在討論資費，以前都可以收580、520元，現在事實上相關的訂戶搞不好可以特選，我只要看新聞臺、我只要看什麼，所以搞不好有些是300元，廣電基金大幅縮水，這兩個趨勢。","最後我也會讓你回答，現在廣電基金的分配跟用途，我們還蠻關心這個問題，地方政府占40%，NCC留用30%，捐贈給公視30%。包括地方政府、公視跟你的用途都不太一樣，其他兩個不在，那我就請教NCC，因為這30%裡面，你們具體的計畫是說你分到了廣電基金，主要會針對有線電視發展、災害復建計畫跟品質提升的整個計畫。未來持續減少可能是不可逆的趨勢，我想請教陳主委，你對於這樣的趨勢影響廣電基金，甚至未來適用的這3個單位，你有什麼看法或者未來有什麼樣的建議？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，目前這個是在有廣法第四十五條有相關的規定，即便是NCC留用30%裡頭，用的一些規定都有一些條件限制。至於長遠來看這一塊要怎麼處理，我們大概有三個方向，第一個就是利用有限的有廣基金，請有線電視業者持續改善他的服務品質，也鼓勵他，他們是順應時代變化，甚至於現在大部分的有線電視，大型的MSO大概都有靠攏OTT TV，因為這些現象都是OTT TV跟終端設備的興起，所以會有這種趨勢的變化。即便國外有剪線潮，但是另外一個部分，一般人沒有在意的是，他的寬頻上網其實是慢慢在黃金交叉，所以對有線電視部分而言，我們這邊是希望它能夠持續保住用戶的黏著度以維持競爭力，未來也鼓勵它順應時代潮流發展，在多元、地方文化等方面做一些擴展。至於捐贈公視額度的部分，雖然廣電法也有一些規定說未來有空間做一些處理，但是現在文化部公視那邊目前覺得它還是有一些需要，所以這邊就暫時還沒有辦法處理。以上補充。"],["魯委員明哲：好，陳主委，我的質詢時間已經到了。今天這個第二題的最主要用意已經不是未來的趨勢，而是現在進行式了，肯定要有一些政策來配合。尤其有線電視有些部分隨著用戶漸漸下滑、基金也下滑，但是有些服務項目不是變動的，譬如說這個線要拉這麼遠，過去有1萬戶，現在雖然變成5,000戶，但是不好意思，線還是這麼長，你必須要拉到，再如災害的復建和某些品質的提升、發展，所用的金額是固定的，所以我覺得你要先期預備這個可能的變化。這是我最後的建議。","最後是廣電基金，因為基金還沒有審，也沒有刪，你不要回去說什麼廣電基金被刪了多少，因為還沒審！我們也希望這個部分我會來支持。謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。","現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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RPZ如果一定要的話，這是公版的義務，到時候很有機會變成普遍適用。"],["陳委員素月：畢竟你們是主責機關，而且是專家，所以這個法要怎麼定會比較完善，有賴你們會後或進一步的擬定。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一定的，我們一定會來辦。"],["陳委員素月：對於阻絕詐騙、阻絕這種暗黑網站，這都是大家的共識，也是社會的期待。","詐騙社會大眾非常深惡痛絕，所以在上一次的會議裡面，我有詢問陳代理主委有關簡訊的問題，我今天針對LINE，目前發商業簡訊，NCC已經有比較精進的辦法，就是白名單審核的機制。我們發現經過這樣的機制之後，這些詐騙的簡訊已經轉換成沒有連結網站的LINE形式，這部分應該是屬於數發部的業務，所以我要請教林次長，我們也看到目前LINE帳號被盜的通報數增加了80%，有沒有什麼因應的措施？"],["林次長宜敬：我們接到LINE的通知，它們最近會改善救回帳號的機制，有些民眾的LINE帳號密碼被盜，在我們的輔導與協助之下，它們會有新的措施，讓帳號被盜的民眾可以有更好的方法把它救回來，它們最近應該會宣布。"],["陳委員素月：目前沒有比較有效的方法嗎？要等LINE的回復？"],["林次長宜敬：對，因為LINE比較特別，LINE跟Meta或者Google不一樣，Meta跟Google基本上是公開的平臺，但是LINE是通訊軟體，通訊軟體依照憲法規定必須保障通訊秘密的自由，這是權利，我們當然對於詐騙深惡痛絕，但是因為臺灣是一個自由、民主、法治的國家，所以對於LINE的私訊內容，我們比較難直接用政府的公權力涉入。"],["陳委員素月：這樣會去拖延到比如遭受到詐騙、LINE帳號被盜，沒有辦法及時處理？"],["林次長宜敬：我們會想盡各種方法處理，包含透過民眾自願訊息揭露，讓LINE公司可以去檢查是不是有詐騙的嫌疑，但是從政府的角度來講，我不能強迫民眾必須把通訊的內容給LINE公司，甚至給政府監看。"],["陳委員素月：今天討論法案修訂，我們都是希望讓法令規定更加完善，也是需要各部會或許多單位集思廣益，謝謝。"],["林次長宜敬：非常謝謝委員的支持。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的質詢。請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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世之前都沒有辦法進到板橋榮家、也就是自己家鄉的榮家。所以我想問主委，我知道板橋榮家現在要蓋一棟失智樓，主要是要服務失智的長輩，但是針對一般安養的部分，未來可能會有增加的空間嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，它主要就是為了失智專區、失智的人而興建的。"],["葉委員元之：我知道。"],["嚴主任委員德發：剛剛委員也提到了，板橋榮家的範圍有限，如果要再擴建安養的堂、園區，恐怕有點困難。"],["葉委員元之：之前都盤點過嗎？能夠用的全部都用了嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：應該都用到了，我請就養處處長說明。"],["周處長興國：委員好，我是就養處處長周興國，就失智工程我們總共有130床的興建，事實上板橋的腹地不多，大部分都是公園腹地，等於盤點後，事實上真的沒有空餘的空間，我也知道排隊的人大概有一千多人，尤其是安養的部分，我們是希望能夠轉到其他榮家，但有些伯伯就是執意要到板橋榮家，我們希望能夠轉到其他榮家來……"],["葉委員元之：其他榮家的部分我知道，我們現在針對的是板橋榮家，硬體的部分剛剛跟您反映了，還有關於軟體的部分，我上一次在這邊質詢也有跟主委建議，就是我們現在要增加一些活躍老化的課程，後來退輔會是有回我一個文，提到你們現在有做兩件事情，一個是由榮院來辦的，就是3個月的體適能課程，還有認知功能訓練，大概就3個月、一個禮拜一次；另外，配合新北市政府新北動健康的政策，大概會在4到12月來進行，而且這是分為三個階段，第一個階段是預防、延緩失能的介入課程，每週一次；再來是7到12月，配合新北動健康，外聘師資來帶領榮家的住民進行相關運動課程。這個部分你們有編22萬預算，非常感謝對我們板橋榮民的照顧或是板橋居民的照顧，但我上次有跟主委建議，其實活躍老化不只是在動健康這一塊，因為現在按照WTO活躍老化的指標或者是它的定義，應該是針對身體、心靈、心理、人際各方面都要促進健康，目前看起來活躍老化的課程比較偏向在運動這一塊，所以我還是建議主委這邊還是去研究一下，除了運動方面，包括像心靈的提升、心理的提升、人際健康這幾塊，是不是有可能推出相關的課程？為什麼我會這樣講？因為活躍老化是一個國際趨勢，包括臺灣現在也都一直在做這個事情，而活躍老化有一個很重要的指標，叫做交通的接近性，就是在越便利的地方推這種課程，對長輩來說，他會願意來參加，而榮家就是一個非常好的處所，為什麼？因為大家都住在裡面，環境很好，而且大家住在一起，彼此又很熟，所以如果安排這些課程讓他們去參與的話，我覺得參與度是高的，而且是可以達到效果的，比起你在其他地方開課什麼的，我覺得在誘因上來得更大，既然我們有那麼好的條件、環境，有沒有可能在這個部分的課程，就是軟體的部分予以提升？其實你們投入的資源也不多，剛剛講到有關運動課程的經費，其實也才22萬而已，所以只要一點點的錢，其實就可以達到很好的效果，不知道主委願不願意朝這個方向來思考？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員的關心，的確，我們希望榮家是一個非常幸福的宜養環境，陳主任非常用心，就這一塊最近才辦了一個跟臺鐵合作的活動，就是坐臺鐵火車出去微旅行，就是走出戶外，走出室內空間，就是以非常多元化來進行剛剛委員講的活躍老化，總之，這有很多的活動、很多的規劃，所以我們各個榮家都有特色，陳主任非常的用心，我們會把委員……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得要系統化，現在不是說好像哪一個主任很用心，這邊辦一個活動，那邊辦一個活動，而是應讓它可以系統化，因為這其實有很多是理論支撐的東西，就是找一些比較懂這塊的人來做一個課程的規劃，這樣會比較系統化。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會請就養處就如何把它系統化來做一個規劃。"],["葉委員元之：好，如果可以的話，是不是也可以回一個類似的公文給我，但請寫得再清楚一點，因為上次的回文只給我一頁。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會送給委員。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝元之委員。接下來有請翁曉玲委員上臺質詢，翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員不在。","今天登記的質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有林憶君委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。本日委員書面及口頭質詢還沒有答復的部分或要求補充資料者，請退輔會再以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-5","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","王定宇","林楚茵","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","何欣純","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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call的醫療團隊，包括麻醉醫師，整個團隊大概有多少人？"],["王院長瑞祥：報告委員，預估至少要6個人才能變成一個team，我個人規劃是到10月之前會補齊6位心臟科醫師。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，不簡單。跟主委報告一下，屏榮開業以來，我們屏東鄉親寄予高度期望，但是王院長來了，他讓我們有個希望，就是他願意聘足足夠的醫師，讓醫師的團隊可以24小時待命來進行這些緊急的手術，不然我們這些病患要送到高雄去，如果我們的病患都往高雄流，屏東榮總是不是很難經營？是很難經營嘛！院長，請教一下，您說要聘足6位心臟科的醫師，那小兒科的部分呢？有計畫嗎？"],["王院長瑞祥：報告委員，目前小兒科其實每天都有人值班，只是如果輪值急診的話，他們值班的區域太大，所以現在是急診專科跟小兒科專科……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你需要再補充多少醫師？"],["王院長瑞祥：我期望是12到15個，可是從5個，到12個，到15個，可能要走好幾年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概要多少資金？我們知道剛開始您的收入不足，要請那麼多醫師，你有這些錢來請醫師嗎？"],["王院長瑞祥：報告委員，我們目前以3月來講，超出總額45%左右，就是各個管道齊下，因為我們的業務量有出來，總額如果也可以供應的話，我們的財務會更加健全。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝院長，請回。","主委，現在要請教你了，因為我們蘇前院長貞昌、我們的老縣長幫屏東設了一個屏東榮總，相較於其他3個榮總它有它的特殊任務，主委，在榮民醫療作業基金收支保管及運用辦法第十條規定，在本基金下的各資金可以互相的融通，其程序由退輔會訂定之，是不是這樣？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是這樣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為這樣的關係，我們訂了一個國軍退除軍官兵輔導委員會榮民醫療作業基金資金融通作業要點，它的資金融通之計息方式是以中華郵政一年期定期儲金的機動利率加1碼。請教一下處長，你知道目前這一年期的定期儲金利息是多少錢嗎？大家不知道啊？500萬以上是0.835%，那加1碼是多少呢？加1碼就是1.08%。處長，你有沒有房貸？不好意思，你知道現在房貸大概多少錢嗎？"],["劉處長峻正：我沒有房貸，我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不清楚，2%、3%就很不錯了，所以主委，我這邊要給你一個請求，目前退輔會轄下的哪些醫院有能力借出作業基金？處長要不要提示一下，這是哪一邊的處長才知道？會計處啊！"],["蔡處長進滿：委員好，我是會計處處長。目前屏東榮總雖然看起來帳面有虧損，可是虧損主要是因為整個醫療大樓的折舊問題，扣掉折舊以後，它的現金流量是正的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是正的，是多少？"],["蔡處長進滿：所以它現在帳面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要報告另外3家榮總作業基金的存量嗎？"],["蔡處長進滿：我看它目前帳上還有接近6億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那能不能順便報告另外3家的餘額？"],["蔡處長進滿：跟委員報告，臺北榮總的現金部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：餘額是多少？"],["蔡處長進滿：大概是134億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺中榮總呢？"],["蔡處長進滿：對不起，134億是臺中的，臺北榮總是284億，高雄的部分是98億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！主委，你了解了啦！我要跟你請求，因為北榮、中榮、高榮都有很長期穩固的支持跟經營，他們今天能夠累積這些高達兩百多億、一百多億及將近一百億的作業基金，是他們這幾年來歷任的院長跟團隊同仁打拚下來的成果，得來不易，但是我們希望3個老大哥能夠支援小老弟。","我最後的結論就是，我們北榮有陳總院長，中榮有傅院長，他是正院長，但是姓傅，還有高雄榮總是陳總院長，屏東榮總從2022年到現在才兩年多，其實需要3個老大哥的支持，我們的王總院長希望提升我們屏東榮總，擴編、增聘醫師需要相當的資金，每個醫師在外面隨便請，我私下問過，一個月到50萬，他如果要增加6名，哇！不得了，他一年下來基金的負擔沉重。主委，我做結論，有沒有可能你來評估北榮、中榮、高榮的榮民醫療作業基金的資金融通性，協調3家總院作業基金的餘絀，給予屏東榮總融資，讓它可以用這麼優惠的利息，我說過，1.08%的利息，能夠得到足夠的資金挹注，幫它撐過這開始營運、最辛苦的階段？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員的好意就是要協助榮總。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，屏東榮總。"],["嚴主任委員德發：讓屏榮能夠跟其他3個榮總是一樣的等級，希望能夠把它提升，我們了解委員的苦心。但是剛剛委員這個案提到的，臺北、臺中、高雄榮總榮民醫療作業基金的融通運用，我跟委員報告，我還要尊重他們3個總院院長的意見，我會找他們協商，希望他們也能夠配合。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我想我這裡不便請3位院長來表達意見，我相信3個老大哥一定很慷慨，我真的要再三陳述，過去在籌備期間，3位老大哥的院長給我們屏東榮總非常多的資源，不管是救護車、各種的醫療設備，真的都很多，所以我特別藉此機會要謝謝3位老大哥的院長，那他們願意表達他們的意願嗎？都出來了。"],["陳院長威明：報告委員，屏東總院在蓋的時候，臺北榮總無償提供12億4,356萬9,000元。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，屏東鄉親感謝你。"],["陳院長威明：但是現在北榮也在發展新流感中心跟信義院區，也需要大量資金，如果沒有影響臺北榮總的興建，輔導會支持我們，看用什麼方式來處理，但是不能再像以前無償提供12億4,356萬9,000元，因為這樣全部都有去無回也不好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不能有去無回。"],["陳院長威明：對、對、對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那另外2位院長，老大哥說話了，你們2位要不要說一下？先請正的傅院長。"],["傅院長雲慶：臺中榮總報告，過去在屏東榮總成立時，臺中榮總有挹注了五億多，也是無償提供，目前臺中榮總有2個大樓，分別是質子中心跟第三醫療大樓，總共大概120億正在進行當中；另外，最近行政院剛幫通過我們的興辦計畫，我們要蓋2棟大樓，一個科技大樓跟一個醫務宿舍，總共要80億，所以我們總共是有200億的工程在進行。臺中榮總雖然目前有130億的存款基金，但是我們預計明年底可能也要開始向輔導會的基金看看能不能融資、借錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：二哥要娶媳婦啦！所以手頭比較緊啦！來，三哥。"],["陳院長金順：謝謝委員，高雄榮總對屏東榮總的支持，我想委員應該很知道，一開始建的時候就是我們開始進去幫忙。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，謝謝。"],["陳院長金順：剛開始開幕的時候，其實70%的員工幾乎都是我們高雄榮總過去的，目前我們每個月大概都要有28位醫師在那邊持續支援，所以我們大量的投入。不管在制度的建置、資源的支持，我們都持續在做，跟委員做報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，因為主席站起來了，我做個結論，有錢出錢，有力出力，老大哥要娶媳婦，還可以縮衣節食來幫忙小老弟可以生養小孩，老二家裡自己有興建房屋，老三出了人了，沒有辦法出錢。"],["陳院長金順：有啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：還可以有一點，所以主委，給3位總院長好好的支持，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們再做整合。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，我們的王院長最辛苦，給這個小老弟多多鼓勵，好不好？謝謝主委、謝謝處長、謝謝4位院長。"],["主席：謝謝佳濱委員。","接下來請麥玉珍委員上臺質詢，麥玉珍、麥玉珍，麥玉珍委員不在。","接下來請鄭天財委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-5","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","王定宇","林楚茵","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","何欣純","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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？我們就講過去，就上一次113年好了，需要多少時間？"],["張處長志強：我們送了以後，還要到程序委員會排……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你什麼時候要送到程序委員會？"],["張處長志強：差不多三個月左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼要這麼久呢？你們現在不是很缺錢要用嗎？"],["張處長志強：我們送出去以後，院會那邊要付委，付委以後……"],["徐委員巧芯：院會？你不是說書面就可以解凍了嗎？"],["張處長志強：書面還是要到院會，然後才到……"],["徐委員巧芯：那什麼時候要送進去排嘛？你們送了沒有？"],["張處長志強：我們跟委員那邊溝通完以後就會送。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，前面這四個案子，陳冠廷委員、王定宇委員和林楚茵委員，你們溝通了沒有？"],["張處長志強：因為預算是3月21號才經總統公布，所以我們現在各業管處在重新修正最新資料，資料完成以後，就會到委員辦公室溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，請你們儘快溝通，儘快送解凍案來。下一次我希望退輔會來這裡的時候，已經將所有的解凍案都送進來，然後都能通過，好嗎？我們是希望站在退輔會立場，協助退輔會讓這些被凍結的預算能夠儘快解凍，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：請退輔會再跟委員溝通。另外，我還是要補充，因為這一次國會亂象，我們的總預算通過是一個禮拜前的事情而已，如果在一個禮拜前才剛覆議，才剛通過，就要他們馬上送，我想這可能有一定的困難點，所以還是要幫退輔會補充說明。接下來一定還有很多解凍案，所以還是要再慢慢跟委員溝通，好不好？謝謝。","接下來請何欣純委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-5","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","王定宇","林楚茵","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","何欣純","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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RPZ，那時候我們有進一步去過濾、去釐清。"],["何委員欣純：如果你有掌握的話，為什麼你今天回答委員的都是一百五十多家、六十多家？如果你有盤點、有掌握的話，你去年就發函了，到底是幾家？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為沒有來登記的話我無法掌控……"],["何委員欣純：對嘛，那就是黑數。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["何委員欣純：所以你剛剛跟我說，你有請他們來登記的，你有掌握，但是沒有來登記的，你又沒有辦法盤點、盤查，那到底有幾家是黑數？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們是依據當年電信法時期有來登記的，我們一樣發函給它，請它……"],["何委員欣純：不是啦！陳代主委，我是希望NCC應該主動、主動、主動，我講三次，因為很重要！你可不可以主動地去盤點，能夠有效地掌握到底目前為止有多少家、有多少家是有來登記的？沒有登記的裡面有多少家是還在營業，但是它卻沒有來登記，為什麼？有多少家是已經沒有在營業了？我為什麼需要你給我精準掌握的數字？我們為什麼要在今天談這個？不管是兒少的保護，或者是等一下我要講的防詐騙，我們如果連基本的資料都沒有辦法掌握，連這個所謂的漏洞或是黑數的業者都沒有辦法掌握，我們如何告訴國人如果有事情發生，第一時間我就知道去哪裡封網？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：抱歉，跟委員報告，剛剛同仁給我最新資料，是有掌握的。"],["何委員欣純：好，是有掌握的，要講清楚啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：總共216家，已登記65家，未登記150家，還有1家是中華電信，它是綜合業務，大概是這樣子。"],["何委員欣純：對嘛，你自己聽看看，你的數字和剛剛跟林俊憲委員講的數字，你看落差有多大。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：登記的部分是一樣的。"],["何委員欣純：登記的部分是一樣，但沒有登記的部分就不一樣啊！你講得很籠統啊！好，沒有登記的這150家，你又要如何地有效掌握？所以為什麼要提修法？你現在叫做自律，自律就是沒有強制性，沒有強制性你就是沒有辦法掌握。我覺得你必須要在立場上跟大家講清楚，不然國人會對NCC這個所謂的公權力是沒有信心的，你知道嗎？如果再發生類似創意私房這樣的網站，我們如何告訴國人NCC可以第一時間就直接掌握、直接封網？因為你剛剛的回答告訴我們你沒有掌握嘛，所以我要拜託主委，我為什麼會談這件事情？我一直在強調保障兒少的權益是全國人民的共識，NCC在兒少傳播網路權益的政策裡面，我現在google到的，你們網站上面所有兒少通訊傳播權益的政策白皮書還停留在2011年，就是數發部還沒有成立的時候。當然，你們在去（2024）年有提出一個初稿叫做「網際網路傳播政策白皮書：平臺自律、部會協力、共識治理」，在你們提出的這個政策白皮書初稿裡面，也有提到「兒少」這個關鍵字60次，雖然你「兒少」提了60次，但是我們還是看不出來在這個網路相關的治理政策裡面，為了守護、保護兒少我們到底要怎麼做。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：剛剛委員所提到的這個白皮書是兩個白皮書，我們最新的是網際網路這一塊，已經完成專家諮詢，接下來要進行公聽會。至於裡頭涉及到兒少的部分，大概是跟委員這邊所提示的一樣，我們必須做兩方面：業者端、平臺端的專業培力，還有民眾端這邊的素養宣導與教育，我們都是從這兩方面來進行處理。"],["何委員欣純：什麼時候可以定稿？你們的這個政策白皮書要經過專家，還要經過公聽會，那什麼時候要開公聽會？公聽會開完之後，大概什麼時候可以告訴我們這個初稿可以定稿，是你們的政策白皮書？你們在這個政策白皮書裡面，可以具體地告訴國人在網路相關的治理裡面，你們是可以守護兒少安全的嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：公聽會大概4月份會辦理完成，辦理完成之後，照過往，更久以前，像100年的兒少政策白皮書是要上委員會議，這邊我們也會經過那個程序，但是完成的初稿在上委員會之前，我們會寫一個報告跟委員報告。"],["何委員欣純：所以呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：所以應該是公聽會完之後，內部在現有的諮議會議收斂後會有一個版本，但是要真正比照以前那個兒少通訊傳播權益白皮書，還要上委員會議，但現在沒有委員會議了。"],["何委員欣純：所以你的意思是說，最後final的定稿版本，你現在可能還沒有辦法說一個時間出來？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：是因為委員會還沒有辦法組成，委員人數不夠？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["何委員欣純：那你要講清楚啊！所以我們也呼籲大家，或者是在野黨、各黨派，大家一起支持NCC的委員，在委員的人數能夠達法定名額、都到位的時候，很多NCC相關的業務都能夠推動，包括我們強調的網際網路傳播政策白皮書裡面，到底對於兒少安全保護的具體方向、措施跟建議是什麼，我們才能夠有最後的定稿，也才能夠讓NCC在這個領域裡面趕快往前推、趕快做，讓國人能夠信任，讓孩子在網路上的兒少安全可以獲得保障，不是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["何委員欣純：請給我一份書面報告，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝何欣純委員的質詢。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢，徐富癸委員質詢完畢我們就休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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導數發部應該會承作。"],["陳委員雪生：另外，第四條海纜什麼時候會完成？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：預計明年6月。"],["陳委員雪生：你們有沒有掌握進度？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們持續都有跟中華電信在聯繫，目前進度都有掌握當中。"],["陳委員雪生：目前進度可以喔？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，可以。"],["陳委員雪生：今天中華電信沒有派人來嘛，沒有列席？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：你告訴中華電信在地的用人很重要，你看他們最近招考一批人，我不曉得中華電信會不會來，不過請你轉告，我們那裡缺一個人，它就招考一個，這個人比如在莒光好了，很偏遠的一個島，錄取了，他不來，然後再重新招攬人員，一考試又是兩三個月、三四個月，那我們就沒有人了啊，因為那種小地方可能只有一個同仁或是兩個同仁，同仁沒有補的話，要從馬祖這邊的公司派人去支援，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["陳委員雪生：去支援的話相對影響到這邊的業務，所以我希望招考的時候……因為臺灣的，去年我們鄉親去考了以後覺得太遠，他不想去，但馬祖人就不會覺得啊。中華電信在在地化的部分已經做得很好了，但長此以往，我希望我們在地的青年能夠優先錄取。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們一定轉達。"],["陳委員雪生：但是你不要錄取一個啊，起碼要備取，備取個兩、三個，第一個不來，第二個可以補，就不用再考了，你一直考、一直考，人員一直沒辦法到齊，好不好？這一點很重要。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒問題，我們一定轉達。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，我憑良心講，你們預算被刪了一半，你們自己要檢討啊，你們打詐是不是打得非常好，那麼多同仁在這邊，我對NCC非常友善耶！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：在交通委員會裡面，我對NCC是最友善的，主委也到我那邊去過，我也曉得你的意思，我也很想幫你的忙，我不只在黨團裡面幫你忙，我也希望跟民眾黨這邊、國成召委這邊，我也跟他們溝通……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：你們的解凍案，我們是很善意的，你錢不夠用，趕快送來嘛！而不是對外去放話，人不夠，你趕快把名單送來嘛，錢不夠，你趕快把解凍案送來嘛，我們如果不同意你解凍，那是我們的問題，但你怎麼可以把解凍當作刪除呢？是不是？我想這個解凍案你們就儘快送來。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員，一定。"],["陳委員雪生：希望你兩個禮拜之內送來，你不要把責任推給主計人員，我自己本身是主計人員，我現在退休還可以領主計人員的退休俸喔，我還可以領喔，我服務公職40年，40年了！除了民意代表、縣長、立法委員之外，我自己本身有這個證照，我有會計、審計的證照。所以這個部分，我希望主委還是加油啦，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。","現在請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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委。"],["林委員國成：在不妨害的情況之下，如果不影響老百姓以及不影響你們尊嚴、監督的立場，基本上，我都會支持的、我都會支持，所以特別跟主委講，我不希望你們只有「政治」兩字，把所有的意志放下去，這一點我是極度反對。","好，陳代主委，還有黃主秘，現在發言人是你，但是我就感覺到很奇怪，還是老話一句，我上個禮拜已經請教也拜託陳代主委，因為NCC的王正嘉委員竟然可以隨隨便便指控立法院不審，你們現在跟他溝通得怎麼樣？如果你們認為這是言論自由，我絕對不會接受，有言論自由就可以批評立法院啊？今天你們NCC是一個獨立單位，如果是事實的東西，那我沒話講，可是又不是事實的東西，他卻公然造謠，這種行為好嗎？主委，我說實在的，你現在是代主委，沒錯，他這個委員也是立法院通過的，那怎麼會船過水無痕呢？今天最起碼立法院都已經任命他為NCC委員，他怎麼可以去指責這些？這是你授意的或者是他個人的意思？來，請主委說明。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，應該是他個人的言論，在上禮拜召委有指示，我們回去有查了一些相關辦法，依據銓敘部所定的公務員發表職務言論同意辦法，主要有兩項，第一個，職務言論的定義是他必須要代表機關或者使用機關的職稱，他在社交媒體的部分並沒有這些東西，所以他並不是職務言論的發表；第二個，他是政務人員，他發表言論不需要機關同意，這是那個辦法裡頭的規定。另外是職務言論的定義，依銓敘部所定的辦法，所謂的職務言論是說跟這個機關的業務職掌有關，他上次在社交媒體所講的是委員提名這一塊，因為委員提名這一塊的職掌不在NCC，所以也沒有構成這個辦法的……就是沒有適用這個辦法。"],["林委員國成：陳代主委，你不要再講那些規定，他很明顯，他現在是NCC的委員，你不要忘了，NCC的委員相當於部長級，是經立法院通過的，他關在他家裡面怎麼罵立法院，我沒有意見，可是公開上網就是公開的東西，我管你幹什麼，除非他是在辭掉的隔天去表示意見，這樣我就沒有意見，可是他現在還是在職，你不要去拐彎抹角講有關公務人員之規定，你不要講這個，來立法院就是要探討問題，對就對，不對就不對。我到現在都認為NCC的王正嘉委員不可以這樣去指責，因為跟事實有出入，所以就變成公然的造謠，當然我也不會去指責現在有些部會的部長也是公然造謠，你不要這樣。所以我一直在講，獨立單位、專業單位千萬千萬不要有政治的連結，我說實在的，他是政務官，他要知道該怎麼做，怎麼可以公然去造謠說我們不審？這一點我很在意，因為我都願意排啊！我是在野黨，我願意排啊！你們為什麼都不表示意見？我就覺得很奇怪，所以不要再跟我講這些，今天是我第二次問這個問題，你如果沒有妥善的解決跟說明，我還是會問第三次，我會一直問到我卸任召委，要不然他就辭掉，如果他辭掉，我就不會問了。主委，我特別再次跟你叮嚀，沒有一個說法可以解釋，你不要拿那個法令來跟我講，很明顯，他是現任的NCC委員，相當於政務職，所以請他不要忘了，他要去拍馬屁是他家的事，但是拍馬屁不能公然造謠以及污衊立法院，這是我的原則。主委，我已經第二次跟你們講，我希望主秘也要協助主委一下，我跟你講，你什麼時候跟我承認，我什麼時候才不會問，不然我會繼續問下去，這個我要特別跟主委講。","好，接下來我們來看打詐，打詐當然跟數位部、警政署等等都有關，我們的二類電信也就是我提案的這些東西現在確確實實是打詐的破口，打詐不分黨派，大家都支持你們，從你們的增購預算，我坦白跟你講，這個打詐還是我們黨團黃總召帶著我們去刑事警察局還有調查局等等，把基層的聲音、儀器的問題、法規的問題等等，一次把它修，但是我們修了以後，總是難免有遺珠之憾，也就是二類電信不納管，我坦白跟你講，這是非常大的破口，所以我們才會提出二類電信納管這個部分，所以拜託主委要把它正視為一個非常嚴重的破口，並且要納入管理。當然你們會感覺到很麻煩，但是這些對打詐是有幫助的，所以我拜託主委正視，這是非常重要的破口。","另外，我要特別提醒NCC，現在本院還有不同黨派的立委在那邊造謠，說你們的預算、你們的業務費被刪到只剩下1塊錢，主委，到底有沒有刪到只剩下1塊錢，有沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報告召委，當時的記者會我們是要提醒這個案子如果通過的話，會有這些後果，當然那個案子後來撤案了。"],["林委員國成：沒有，你不要跟我講這個，主委，有沒有刪到剩1塊錢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就結果論的話，那個案子後來撤案了。"],["林委員國成：結果沒有嘛！提案的人都已經撤掉了，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["林委員國成：所以我坦白跟你講，現在一個政務官、部長及立法委員還在造謠，什麼刪到1塊錢，你們真的喜歡刪到1塊錢嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他的表意可能是凸顯這個案子……"],["林委員國成：主委，你不要幫他們講話，沒有就沒有、有就有，你們還剩下四千多萬，怎麼會只剩下1塊錢？所以這個不攻自破。主委，我坦白跟你說，這不是你說的，但是與你有關，我們當然就質詢你。接下來，主委，你們現在很窮，什麼時候要送解凍案上來？我願意排，我用我的時間來排，什麼時候要送上來？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會儘快，我們內部會加緊作業。"],["林委員國成：我都是公開的，我是在野黨的召委，我都願意排了，請問你們還要研議什麼東西？主委不要一天到晚在那邊哭窮，人家會不會很同情？不會啦！解凍案我願意排，趕快送上來，不要耽擱業務，不要耽擱你們的業務。我不希望在這個部分連主委都有政治性的這些業務推展，這是不好的。最後我還是真的要呼籲主委不要有政治性，用你的專業去把NCC做好。至於委員什麼時候補，這個是行政院院長的權力，但是你是單位現在的代理負責人，你還是有下情上達之責任，你要讓行政院院長知道你們有這個需求，讓這些委員趕快補齊，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，謝謝召委。"],["林委員國成：主委，你們王委員的事要儘快給我答案，為什麼他會做這個事，好不好？以上。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席（林委員國成）：現在請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra 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我們現在為了符合比例原則，已提醒我們所有的退役軍人不要違法，保護國家安全跟尊嚴，所以增訂了剛剛委員所提到的，他除了喪失跟剝奪以外，主政單位依據陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例這裡面所訂的，他的退除給與停止領受全部或者是部分，有這種類案的，我們就同步增訂停止他的權益，現在正在啟動。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席只是要提醒啦，就是退除役官兵輔導條例目前有這樣的漏洞的話，有沒有準備要修法讓它同步？現在修法的進度會是什麼、有沒有準備要研議或提出來、有沒有送院會、報院等等，這個進度可不可以講一下？因為前面已經有另外關於退休金這樣一個部分的時候，在陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例當中，你既然有修訂的時候，其實另外一個輔導條例要修法跟上並不困難，而且我相信不論是對於軍中的弟兄或是即將退役的弟兄，或是整體社會氛圍上面應該都是會同步的，所以主委這裡跟相關的單位有沒有一個研議的進度可以讓我知道？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，現在為了符合比例原則，我們已經開始啟動了，現在就是徵詢相關部會的意見，回函之後我們再做一個聯繫、做一些回復，再把我們原來的規劃看看有沒有一些需要調整的地方，然後再做溝通，後續會按照法定程序，我們會報行政院。"],["林委員楚茵：好，要多久時間？有沒有一個時間表？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們要先報行政院，行政院還要審查，我們大概8月份會報行政院。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。接下來有請陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-5","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","王定宇","林楚茵","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","何欣純","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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予以喪失、剝奪了，已經在執行當中，這是沒有問題的，已經完整，後續我們要做的就是配合主政單位依照陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例或者國安法，我們要增訂有關停止的部分，就是停止他的退除給與或者是部分給與這一塊，相關的我們也要停止，召委顯示的PowerPoint的左半邊，就是輔導條例所定的一些權益，包括就醫、就養、就學、就業、優待跟就職這一塊，我們也要訂停止。現在已經啟動了，目前的進度是各部會的協調，有些部會都已經回函了，我們會依據各部會的回函內容再做一些聯繫、說明，然後後續按照法定的程序再來往下走。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，那這部分我們可不可以在一個月之內再密集討論一下？因為當時我在提的時候，我也要把，比如說國安法、國家情報工作法這些以外，我們還有把反滲透法訂進去。因為現在涉及國安的事項實在太多了，原本我們能夠訂的，比如說內亂、外患這一些可能已經不足以應對現在的國安威脅，就是說我們的種類如果定得夠完整，我們也才可以去決定它的比例原則。他今天違反的比較輕度的國安事項還是重度的國安事項，然後根據不同的狀況，他剝奪的狀況可能也不同，我們可能要往這個方向討論。不知道主委有沒有可能在一個月之內，我們能夠先把院版討論出來？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟召委報告，因為相關的內容比較廣泛，針對五大類的服務項目要依據主政機關的主要罰則，不管是陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例，還是國安法也好，的內容對其權益影響到什麼程度，我們要依據這些，所以我們才會跟各部會去協調、聯繫，然後再來溝通，我們來訂我們的細則，這個可能需要一點時間。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒關係，那我們就迅速，好不好？因為我覺得這件事情滿重要的，畢竟現在滲透的狀況真的是越來越嚴重。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，希望能給我們一點時間。"],["沈委員伯洋：而且我們也可以看到，現在滲透的狀況並沒有在分國民黨、民進黨、民眾黨，它是沒有在分的，這個也是非常重要。像我之前一直提的赴中的納管，我們也不會說去中國要納管是只有納管某一個政黨的，而是每一個政黨的都應該要納管，所以就現在整體的狀況來講，如果他們要如此廣泛的接觸，那麼中間人很重要，剛好退將時常成為中間人。你看上次關於做民防的防彈、防刺背心的，他的中間人也是退休的軍官，所以退休軍官很容易成為所謂的中間人，然後他又有可能金錢上的誘因，也有可能像我上次我跟主委提到的，他們很多從事旅遊業，旅遊業又是一個中國很容易拿去給予資源的一種方式，所以如果他今天退役了，然後他又再從事這個行業，其實對我們來講都是高風險，風險的盤點我覺得真的是特別重要。","因為時間的關係，我再問一個，最後一個我就不問了。剛剛業務報告也有講到，有關軍民專長的銜接系統，裡面有AI等等之類的，我之前除了提到準確性之外，有特別提到數發部要來協助，畢竟我們本來是好意，我們希望能夠銜接他的專長等等之類的，那這個名單特別重要嘛，就是哪些人在裡面，然後我們剛剛講中間人要去接觸我們的退將，等於那個名單就在那一邊，所以，這方面的資安，現在數發部協助的狀況大概是如何？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我請我們統計處處長跟您報告一下。"],["張處長志強：先跟召委報告一下，之前就已經在召委的指導底下，我們有先跟資安署那邊聯繫了，我們希望他們把採購的內容或者一些限制的項目，或是資安該注意的項目，他們跟我們講的是，基本上第一個，因為情況不一樣，他們現在手頭上沒有類似的案子，但他們先依照工程會的資訊服務採購合約，它裡面有一些基本的規範，另外是我們所有的建置都是在機關裡面有相關的資安法的規定，不管做任何的情況，比如說端點防護、防火牆、資料庫加密，這些東西要按照基本的資安法的規定去辦理，然後最重要的是，現在這些AI的相關東西基本上都是落地的，就是我們不會上到雲端去，目前在我們的規劃裡面不會有資料再往外傳的情況，所以不會有資料外洩的情況，以上補充說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。因為如果今天有廠商的話，他當然一定要符合最低程度的資安規範，這個數發部它有它的標準，另外就是他要連線，假設他今天有連網的時候，他的規範又是什麼？你剛剛講落地。另外還有一點要特別注意的就是access，就是誰能夠取得，就算你是落地的，就算你只有在內網而已，今天誰能夠接觸這些資料是重要的，因為對中國來講，他重點的滲透對象有時候並不是駭客攻擊，他知道誰有access，他滲透這一些人去取得資料。如果我們今天把這個東西定義清楚，國安的法規才能夠進來，因為目前其他的法規都是針對能夠接觸資料的人，我們有相關的規範跟罰則，如果一開始我們主管機關把能夠接觸資料的人定義清楚的話，後續要處罰或者要管控才會方便，所以這方面可能再麻煩必須一定要注意，因為我覺得這一定是一個風險。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝召委指導。"],["沈委員伯洋：我就先這樣子，其他的我再用書面來問。謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝召委。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋）：接下來請林楚茵委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-5","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","王定宇","林楚茵","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","何欣純","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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長政：甚至連種電都排除掉了，所以委員放心。"],["王委員定宇：我建議好好談，但是年底要有個收尾。這個為什麼重要？當時因為獎投才會在山區設立，這根本是水土保護區，民國六十幾年因為國家任務需要，所以弄了一個專門生產黃色炸藥TNT的工廠，占地那麼大，確實附近穿山甲比人還多，梅花鹿比人還多。我在那邊開車，有時候還會看到穿山甲媽媽帶著穿山甲的小孩過馬路，那是一個很好的生態區域。這個生態區域的工廠因為當時獎投，所以現在地目是特定目的工業區嘛？"],["楊處長長政：對。"],["王委員定宇：可是現在所有的計畫都廢止了，已經沒有特定目的，也沒有這些計畫了，所以它確實不應該再做工業區。我知道你們跟市政府開過一次協調會，希望把這個地目廢止，回到原來的面貌，原來這邊是農牧區就農牧區，什麼區就什麼區，但現在卡在一件事情，退輔會願意，但因為根據獎投，我也問了經濟部，能夠把地目申請廢掉回到原貌的只有當時的申請人，就是退輔會，所以退輔會是可以申請把它變更的，你們現在好像是願意把那281公頃申請變更，但歐欣的那60公頃你們目前仍然有疑慮，我這樣詮釋對不對？"],["楊處長長政：這個部分我跟委員報告，281公頃的變更是臺南市政府後來提出要求的。"],["王委員定宇：當然，因為它變國家級的地質公園啊！"],["楊處長長政：原本112年討論的時候，它都是朝著全區廢止的方向走，但是後來113年2月1號臺南市政府希望先變更281公頃。當然如果要變更歐欣那塊土地的話，我們還是要歐欣同意。"],["王委員定宇：錯了，我昨天已經幫你們把法令研究完了。"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["王委員定宇：也跟楊處長和主委說明，這件事情牽涉到民國六十幾年的法令，獎投是什麼單位申請的，要廢止就只有那個單位才有權力，如果後面的單位有權力，現在就叫臺南市政府申請廢止就好了，就連經濟部都說，廢止只有當時民國63年根據獎投提出來的單位才有權力申請廢止，也就是貴單位──退撫會，而廢止的範圍看要全區或者局部，局部的擁有者有沒有權力去主張，他可以就他的損失去提主張，但就變更來講他是沒有權力的。所以我已經請相關單位，環境部、經濟部，可能會儘快再邀請退撫會一起來討論，就341公頃全區廢止，把它特定目的的工業區廢止，回到原來生態保護的功用。","第二個方案是分成60公頃跟281公頃，分成兩個進程，這中間唯一會產生疑慮的就是歐欣當年以地作股，是以特定目的的工業區來作價，它可能會認為現在回復原貌的話，原來買的價格會受損，有這一塊的訴訟疑慮，可是就廢止這個地目、變更這個地目，全區廢止、變更，它沒有能力阻卻，只有退撫會有能力處理，這個法律的概念先弄清楚，它是兩個事情。所以我希望主委好好研究這件事，因為那個美麗的地方現在卡在這裡、荒廢在那邊，我覺得有點可惜，這341公頃都是我們國家的土地，當然現在有60公頃因為有狀況放在那裡，我們要找出一個方案，趕快把特定目的地目之工業區廢止，讓它回到我們的地質公園這樣的規劃，我不知道主委可不可以……"],["嚴主任委員德發：這個我們回去之後會好好研究。"],["王委員定宇：我會儘快召開協調會，麻煩主委，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["楊處長長政：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員楚茵代）：接下來請沈伯洋召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-5","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","王定宇","林楚茵","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","何欣純","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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我們兩個都會來進行，現在正在程序進行當中，就是在我們跟財政部申請停徵之後，已經持續進行業務宣導以及內部法規收費標準的檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在沒有堅持750元的統一標準？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們在研議及檢討過程當中，應該是朝向最大主流民意，目前最大主流民意是免徵，這應該是我們主要的考量方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以剛剛本席和召委有一個提案，就今天的審查，我想前面的相關條文我們沒有意見，因為尊重NCC提出來的行政作業，但是對於後面附表的收費，我們是不予通過，我想這也是主委你剛剛講的方向，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報告委員，這部分我們是建議免予通過，然後做成類似要求我們儘快完成法規修正……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然啊，就是要你們趕快再補後續的作業嘛！關於免徵的部分，現在眾說紛紜，有人說是免徵一年，有人說是伺機而動，等風頭過後再提出來。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，因為我們是停徵一年，在一年期間，我們是期許我們能夠完成法規收費標準的修正，如果標準沒辦法如期修正完成，我們會再跟財政部申請繼續展延。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們當初要收750元的時候，有沒有考慮過到底影響會多廣多大？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：當初的標準作業程序，對外徵詢意見我們都有做、都有落實。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你有評估以這樣的標準一年可以收多少錢錢嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果一年兩萬多件，每一件750元乘上去就是這種數據，但是現在數量又在增加，所以數目字會再高一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席看到你們今年的預算書，審查費用的歲入增加了一千萬，換言之，其實你們自己也知道只要收費上去之後，至少會比去年多一千萬以上的歲入。你之前有說如果是一年四萬臺的話，那就會更多，等於是兩千多萬快三千萬嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點在於公平合理的收費標準，以及不要讓大家覺得政府在搶錢，這才是我們民意代表……為什麼一天裡面政府公共政策平臺可以五千人達標，我想這是民意的反彈，請代理主委一定要聽到民意的真實性，可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：可以，我們現在就是朝這個方向在檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，今天有幾個委員都有討論到這個法案的修正，本席也很重視打詐的必要性。針對電信管理法，我看你們給大家的修法建議也沒有反對，裡面也講到要充分溝通、降低修法的衝擊，但是尊重各委員提出來的修法意見，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：其中你有提到，希望電信管理法修法議題能夠跟行政院提出的修法草案一起討論，我想請教現在行政院電信管理法修法草案進度在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：目前還在我們會內的幕僚作業階段……"],["洪委員孟楷：還在NCC？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有送行政院？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：那院版也就還沒有辦法出來，請問什麼時候可以出來？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們期待儘快。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不就是拖延戰術嗎？以拖待變。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，因為我們現在委員會沒辦法組成。"],["洪委員孟楷：代理主委，很高興你又講到這個了，上個禮拜很多委員都關心嘛，到現在一個禮拜過去了，有沒有再請示一下、了解一下？我看行政院上禮拜的發言，它不敢正式回應，它講政院人士表示持續徵詢中，有沒有去了解？上個禮拜你在這邊也很無奈的說提出委員名單是行政院長的權責，我再講一個數字給您了解、我再講一個真實狀況給你了解，您知道上一任陳建仁院長所提出來的四位委員名單什麼時候付委的嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該是去年第二季左右吧！"],["洪委員孟楷：去年7月16號，在第1會期的最後一天，我們處理所有議案的時候，那一天就正式付委，第一個會期就正式付委了，請教您知道第2會期交通委員會有進行NCC委員的審理嗎？第2會期開了十幾次交通委員會，有藍的召委、有綠的召委，你知道有排過幾次NCC委員的審查嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：權責不在我這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：你不知道？權責當然不在你這邊，你是代理主委啊！這是立法院的權責，但我只是請教您知不知道？第2會期交通委員會開了十幾次會，有藍的召委、有綠的召委，NCC委員名單在7月16號就已經付委了，但第2會期有排過幾次NCC委員的審查？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該是沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：零次啊！所以現在在講這是誰的責任，民進黨的召委也沒有想要排NCC委員的審查啊！一直到了11月28號我們NCC組織法三讀通過，變成行政院要重新提人，從去年11月28號到今年4月2號，4個月過去了，行政院長提出的新人選在哪裡？沒有！NCC現在跟我們講行政院提出電信管理法修正草案，要拜託大院指教跟支持，我也很想支持啊！但是你們行政院的版本在哪裡？沒有！NCC的幕僚在作業中，幕僚很辛苦啊！公務人員很辛苦啊！可是沒有辦法開會，因為現在委員沒有辦法補齊，沒有辦法補齊是誰的責任？行政院長不提人，4個月過去了，到現在還是只聞樓梯響，沒有任何委員名單出爐。代理主委，我甚至看到有媒體說可能要等到今年行政院現在最期待的罷免結束、告一段落以後才要提人，這樣還要再拖半年啊！您覺得這樣子對NCC的業務會不會造成衝擊？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對這一部分我沒有立場表達意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼沒有立場表達意見？你是代理主委，現在連問你對NCC的業務有沒有衝擊，你都不敢講了！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：當然是有衝擊。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，當然是有嘛！主委，就事論事，專業的部分我一定會質詢你，你就是用專業回答，因為NCC是獨立、超然、專業、自主的機關，不受任何執政者所影響，這是你應該有的風骨，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。"],["主席（洪委員孟楷代）：好，現在請第2位林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-5","speakers":["林國成","張啓楷","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","洪孟楷","陳雪生","林俊憲","何欣純","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","魯明哲","李昆澤","邱若華","廖先翔","王鴻薇","游顥","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許智傑","麥玉珍"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查國家通訊傳播委員會函為修正「應經核准之電信管制射頻器材」、「電信管制射頻器材\n製造輸入及申報作業管理辦法」及「電信管理業務規費收費標準」第十四條條文案；二、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「電信管理法第五條、第八條及第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「電信管理法第五條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)委員鍾佳濱等21\n人擬具「電信管理法第五條、第九條及第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「電信管理法第九條及第四十條條文修正草案」案及(五)委員陳俊宇等19人擬具「電信管理法第\n七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143401_00009"}}},{"id":"159836","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159836","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/af9684606460b5829c204474b00bf5d0bdcf8c6e832fa1fab9e99d06451bdec72b94a1fe9365f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:39:42 - 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