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謝謝"},{"start":88.02,"end":110.536,"text":"謝謝李博議員,我說明一下,這我們跟議事人員有做過確認就是說在解凍案還沒有交付進來的情況之下能不能先排專案報告,那這個結論當然是可以的這個目的是我們今天先進行專案報告,未來解凍案的程序是這樣行政院提出來之後交到立法院大院,大院附委之後進到內政委員會來審查這我想是大家都清楚的事情"},{"start":110.976,"end":125.027,"text":"但是中間如果有專案報告作為前提的話你萬一後面一次送進來很多其實會造成大家排案的困難所以我們在前面的時候我們先把幾個跟比較重大民生建設相關的一些解凍案的專案報告我們先把它走完那未來這個我想"},{"start":126.368,"end":153.098,"text":"在不耽誤建設的一個情況之下行政院未來在交付的時候我們在處理解凍的時候可以比較快這我也相信今天在尋答的過程中如果當初提案的委員或者是關心的委員可以充分的尋答其實都有助於預算的解凍所以我想今天排案的狀況應該是沒有問題的那就希望大家有把握今天的機會趕快來針對生活圈的道路的部分來進行充分的政策對話跟討論好 那麼還有各位委員還有要程序發言嗎好 那我們就"}]}},{"id":"159875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c41b1a0504d137e540b73a066c5966245410e0cc1efc9f30dc77f2ee5fba4e3f22026100640eea3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:10:20 - 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有嗎 凍結的部分 凍結你拿出來給我看有嗎 中央政府總預算我唸一下可以嗎 您方便嘛中央政府總預算增加2806億那裡面的擴大租金補貼跟新設宅是有200億元也就是說如果114年的中央政府總預算沒有通過的話這個是屬於新增的那行政院就沒有辦法撥補給我們200億給我們的住宅基金 報告委員"},{"start":150.492,"end":175.203,"text":"沒有人提案去凍結這200億啊任何一筆都沒有在立法院的三讀通過我是以三讀通過為準所以我有跟委員解釋你把它換成它所有新興的嘛對不對就沒有人砍掉這筆不是不是換成它本來就是新的預算它不是延續性的預算沒有人任何提案去砍了你說的這2000多億嘛更沒有講你說的這200億啊有嗎你提任那個案子給我看啊"},{"start":178.688,"end":203.506,"text":"你這個是完全擴大而且是扭曲的跟住宅補貼有關係真正有過提案的就是上個禮拜上次我們有講過嗎有幾個關鍵啊第一個他已經排除就沒有砍任何一毛錢租屋的這個補貼對不對這上次我清清楚楚給你看有你有看到我們的提案嗎這是第一例第二關鍵字就是說他一下增加了105%去年是編202億對不對"},{"start":208.257,"end":220.905,"text":"今年變多少?414億欸更重要的來來我們來上一下小學的這個數學好不好你在講說被動了錢動了40億所以沒幾個人贏對不對你已經增加了一倍414億刪了2.73這2.73還已經排除喔不包括租屋補貼喔好終究是刪完之後動了1%40億"},{"start":234.98,"end":262.494,"text":"你一年我已經問過你了 我還閒聞去你內政部喔 去國土署門喔你的租屋補貼一年是多少3870支事實上到目前為止 今年搞不好還花不到372啊你到11月底到12月錢都夠用啊所以三個關鍵 第一個已經排除沒有刪 對不對第二你增加了兩倍之後你剩下的錢終究動了10%你都足夠用到12月底啊怎麼會有問題"},{"start":264.369,"end":284.115,"text":"是不是這樣這個數學本來應該看得到嘛對不對你的錢就44億了啊你變成這個預算清清楚楚啊砍掉了273已經排除喔雖然被砍排除喔你還剩下372億是不是你需要的你今年就372啊有夠啊怎麼也沒夠錢是不是這樣"},{"start":289.102,"end":293.743,"text":"我要回答嗎報告委員我再把它原來的程序跟委員很簡單報告一下請你給我30秒就好了我們在8月29號去年8月29號的時候有個預算案送到立法院裡面去那國土管理業務的編列預算是414億6726萬2000元裡面含撥補住宅基金400億元"},{"start":313.848,"end":337.098,"text":"這個所謂的撥補住宅基金的400億元不是我內政部給國土署而是行政院要給內政部這個沒有錯吧好那113年的住宅基金的撥補只有200億所以我們希望行政院呢要能夠給我們400億也就是說我們需要增加200億的這個錢那如果沒有的話只能動資原來的200億多分200億200億所以大家都會混混混"},{"start":338.379,"end":344.787,"text":"混在一起然後在總統公佈總預算案的時候總統公佈預算案為法定預算的時候呢我們的撥補200億才能動之那所以這個院會表決的過程當中裡面包括有凍結要給致用的預算"},{"start":357.142,"end":366.776,"text":"我現在所說的就是我們的中央政府總預算也就是我們那個行政院卓院長在提到的中央政府總預算增加了2806億裡面有一部分叫擴大租金補貼是200億我現在講的是這個部分"},{"start":372.134,"end":401.278,"text":"這部分有任何人砍了他嗎沒有而且這是完全扭曲的啊這是現在可以用嗎現在可以用嗎報告委員現在我們全部的捅山捅洞的部分是303億那立法院要求行政院自己去處理各部會要刪減的部分有636億這個636億到目前為止不管是立法院有沒有跟行政院溝通或說明好目前為止都是未定案"},{"start":401.778,"end":424.88,"text":"那既然目前為止是未定案的話我們的部會是在行政院全部統籌之下當然都是未定數所以未來的租金補貼是不是真正能夠撥補到兩百億我們也是有一個問號請委員多指教你說你新增兩千八百零六億後來後來不是我們是整個行政院兩千八百多對不對這是砍了多少錢"},{"start":427.386,"end":444.912,"text":"全部的山形了多少939億左右你說的是桶山嘛對不對不是不是桶山抱歉桶山桶洞的部分我們都處理好了叫做303億整體三讀之後這是104年的整個因為就我的理解20002075嘛那裡面還扣掉1000億的台電對不對是青蛙嘛對不對"},{"start":449.5,"end":476.277,"text":"跟這個也不是全部砍這個金額啊從全部砍這個金額這裡面還剩下很多啊第二個是你清水 清果剛剛講的啊你說的是統商部分939嘛對不對統商不是939就是一定要處理掉的939統商的是303億還有636億可能要分散到各部會去那怎麼樣分散到各部會去行政院還沒有從立法院這邊得到一個正確的數字所以我們有一點不太敢輕舉妄動"},{"start":478.68,"end":503.394,"text":"第一個這樣很牽強啊因為你只有630你636跟2800多這是幾分之幾絕大部分都可以用吧報告委員因為我不是在行政院的這個層級我只回應我的內政部可以處理到的部分我知道這第一點嘛第一點我現在跟你說我剛剛就算給你看你的金額是夠的嘛對不對第二個這個提案你知道因為到目前為止登記租金補貼的大概已經有70萬戶以上"},{"start":505.337,"end":527.028,"text":"對 保證還有一個大問題提案裡面還有一個很重要的你三個月內你要提 我上面有問你了對不對你要趕快提啊報告委員我們今天在程序提出來的時候已經有提到了今天算是業務報告不算是解凍報告而且那裡面有提到的是專案報告這個專案報告要立法院依照程序交辦下來才有可能處理"},{"start":528.149,"end":542.942,"text":"所以我們提案裡面就要你三個月提嘛立法院的院會立法院的院會不是內政委員會我們內政委員會的委員今天都非常的清楚我們今天的報告事項是以報告業務為主議會只是交給委員會來審對不對對嘛"},{"start":547.079,"end":568.168,"text":"我尊重立法院的各項程序處理我們尊重立法院的各項程序處理上次連那個主席都有跟你解釋過了嘛那我們提案裡面很清楚你就三個月就趕快提嘛好我歸納一下我們歸納拜託這個事情不要再有誤會因為這牽扯到很多人的權益啊朱補貼多少人阿歐代普在等你現在要害怕事實上第一個關鍵是什麼沒有刪掉他任何一筆錢對不對 第一你三個月你本來就要提解凍嘛"},{"start":575.287,"end":595.622,"text":"我上次要提醒你 除了賴清德以前公司的那一筆凍結到的格點才給凍結案沒有不夠的啦你趕快提 三個月時間都已經到了第三個我今天還進一步用數學給你看你凍結到10%拿掉 你的錢還是夠的怎麼可以不花錢或者是讓人家覺得有恐懼感呢趕快解決問題啦 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初期委員已足法定人數現在介紹我們在場的委員 洪孟楷委員 鍾瑞雄委員王一聰委員列席官員"},{"start":2161.718,"end":2184.113,"text":"列席官員有我們交通部我們的伍聖元次長我們的公共運輸及監理司律福山市長還有我們的陸鎮及道安司我們的衛瑜代理副市長"},{"start":2187.133,"end":2193.258,"text":"法治處許宏達處長會計處張信一處長秘書處黃定環處長鐵道局楊振軍局長台鐵公司馮輝升總經理文化部"},{"start":2217.489,"end":2237.793,"text":"文資局季嘉琳專門委員內政部國土署都紀組廖建順副組長財政部國產署公共公用財產組陳志華組長國庫署債務管理組黃勤文組長"},{"start":2251.451,"end":2269.975,"text":"主計總署基金預算處代群方專門委員法務部廖江縣參事本日會議進行國營台灣鐵路"},{"start":2274.178,"end":2299.619,"text":"股份有限公司設置條例第10條及第23條條文修正的審查先請委員說明提案要旨請機關代表報告交通部我們的吳次長謝謝"},{"start":2312.505,"end":2330.946,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好今天應邀列席貴人會審查國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例第10條以及第23條的條文修正草案的會議敬請各位委員指教那有關這次本次的"},{"start":2332.607,"end":2347.404,"text":"國營台灣鐵路股份優先公司設置條例的修正主要是為了台鐵局原來的台鐵局剝入資產以及債務管理基金的一個資產希望能夠採多元活化的運用方式來積極提高資產開發的效益"},{"start":2349.727,"end":2368.921,"text":"同時來兼顧文化資產的一個保存循序創造現金流的一個收入來清償原台鐵級寄存的短期的債務實現行政院因為歷史包袱所造成的債務由政府孤單的承諾事項來協助台鐵公司健全財務以及永續的經營"},{"start":2370.697,"end":2393.691,"text":"另外本次的會議就蔡委員齊昌等17人林委員怡瑾等27人楊委員全英等21人及徐委員富奎等17人相關委員拟據了國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司的設置條例第10條第23條條文修正台灣共識案的修正提案的一個建議那本部已經拟據建議了具體相關建議處理意見"},{"start":2396.713,"end":2401.879,"text":"那接下來我就請鐵道局楊局長向各位委員詳細說明進行各位來指教謝謝"},{"start":2413.379,"end":2435.15,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就蔡委員齊昌 林委員怡瑾 楊委員瓊英及徐委員富奎等四位委員跟相關委員所提案的台鐵公司設置條例第10條第23條修正條文草案提出交通部的處理建議供貴委員會在處理時候的相關參採"},{"start":2436.451,"end":2463.911,"text":"那有關本次委員所提案的修正重點以下分就三點來做說明第一點是希望使本基金的資產管理資產得以開發處分以及收益就設置條例第十條第二項增設明定該等接管的資產不受國有財產法第28條之限制且處分開發收益及其他相關事項之辦法授權由交通部定制"},{"start":2464.651,"end":2491.544,"text":"第二個修正重點是使資金的經營管理資產得依文化資產保存法規定辦理容積移轉基金管有的土地部份都已經劃設為所謂的古蹟或歷史建物包括台北機場、一萬一吐的低密度開發區以及高雄港、臨港縣等相關資產原來由台鐵公司繼續持有本來就得依文化資產保存法第41條規定辦理容積移轉"},{"start":2494.085,"end":2515.083,"text":"但是因為配合政策將該等資產轉移至基金之後呢由交通部鐵道局擔任管理機關極受文化資產保存法第41條第一項不適用該等土地管理機關為政府機關之限制考量該等土地上需透過活化產生收益以償還台鐵局原"},{"start":2516.264,"end":2540.72,"text":"寄存之短期債務 原允許管理機關得依文資法相關規定辦理容積移轉建議新增第10條第三項第三個修正重點是有關本條例修正條文的公佈施行日相關處理建議如下第一個有關蔡委員其他等17人的相關條文其中修正第10條與政策方向一致 本部原則支持"},{"start":2541.32,"end":2568.339,"text":"但是該條文的第一項後段增設該基金存續期間以30年為限以交通部鐵道局為管理機關一解考量基金存續期間存有不確定性且基金管理機關已明定於交通作業基金收支管理及運用辦法建議不需要增訂第二個修正條文第23條委員提案增加第二項本條例至中華民國某年某月某日修正之第10條"},{"start":2569.58,"end":2579.574,"text":"公佈日施行以建議採原則性方式來做修訂的條文及本條例修正條文自公佈日施事以作為後續相關修正條文之一體適用"},{"start":2581.121,"end":2609.17,"text":"第二個有關李穎委員醫警等27人擬聚的相關草案修正條例第10條跟前述的方向一致我們也是表示支持至於其中有一個分號的部分我們建議來增加以利區分第二項前段跟後段相關之間的文字明確第二個是有關修正條文的實行日期本部原則支持並尊重貴委員會審議結果第三案有關楊委員 裘英等21人修正草案"},{"start":2610.536,"end":2630.182,"text":"第一點修正條文第四條跟政策方向一致第十條第三項默劇增訂不受管理機關為政府機關之限制一解尚不影響文藝且更真明確將尊重委員會審議結果修正條文第23條明確修訂條文施行日期本部原則之此"},{"start":2631.107,"end":2654.297,"text":"第四案徐委員富奎等17人擬聚的修正條草案跟前述楊委員求營修正草案一致本部原則表示之此結語本案修正草案對台鐵常債基金之常債能力及政府負擔相關利息關係甚具感謝各位委員提案的相關草案請提供本部處理建議如上上請各位委員參採以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2665.648,"end":2681.777,"text":"謝謝那今天是司法跟我們聯席所以人數比較多所以我們尋答時間就縮短一些那尋答時間出席委員5加1分鐘列席委員4分鐘"},{"start":2684.228,"end":2700.179,"text":"委員發言登記於10點半截止各委員如果臨時提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點半休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位委員侯孟楷委員發言"},{"start":2714.295,"end":2715.199,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請吳次長請次長"},{"start":2726.818,"end":2747.913,"text":"市長台鐵最重要除了安全還是安全那我們不希望說有發生任何的一個事故但這一次清明年假其實台鐵也發生兩起媒體有報導的意外事故其中有一個是在台中太原站有普悠瑪號因為有落軌的意外有沒有查清"},{"start":2749.331,"end":2775.016,"text":"述實真相為何是 我跟委員報告這一個案件是發生在剛剛講就清明這個年假裡面是那天我們把那個錄影帶調出來可以看得出來它是輕生的也就是說它在那個月台等著那個累積快進站的時候快到的時候它突然往月台裡面跳它並不是一個意外的跌落好"},{"start":2776.209,"end":2797.709,"text":"所以這是親身的一個事故但不管怎麼樣在現在的過程裡面其實很多人更想要了解的是台鐵的公司化一年多的時間了那有沒有把我們相關的不管是準點不管是我們最基本的安全有沒有到位"},{"start":2799.051,"end":2806.24,"text":"市長 了不了解我們公司化之後我們的一個統計的狀況準點率所以我跟委員報告"},{"start":2809.14,"end":2835.166,"text":"過去去年大概從2013年成立嘛它的準點力過去跟過去來比事故事件是確實是比過去稍微多一點公司化之後反而過去還要多對 但是主要大概有兩個有一個原因比較大原因就是剛講天海災害去年的那個地震比較多一路清的部分比較多就像剛剛講的那過去我們也發生過有那個車子它會開到我們的那個從頻道裡面開到我們軌道裡面去"},{"start":2837.006,"end":2863.646,"text":"那個你開到裡面去我們不曉得他為什麼開到裡面去一耽擱就耽擱了一千多分那像這個如果把這個排除以後啊我們的準點率其實還可以到97.5來 市長媒體有幫你做統計跟報導準點率公司化之後下降了再來近十年異常的行車意外跟件數上升了"},{"start":2865.048,"end":2881.639,"text":"2024年這都是客觀的數據你剛剛特別提到去年4月有大地震所以4月之後有可能因為天災的狀況而造成我們這個準點率比較低好那我們來看一下前三個月也沒有達標啊"},{"start":2883.766,"end":2906.806,"text":"四月之前四月發生地震所以你說四月五月六月給你三個月的時間讓你比較寬鬆沒錯嘛你看到四月的時候他突然降到81%就代表是說確實有受到天災的影響我不否認但是一月二月三月的時候你也比之前還要來的低啊所以不要推給天災"},{"start":2908.973,"end":2919.199,"text":"天災沒有辦法控制但重點在於是說我們當初要求或說期待的是台鐵要公司化之後能夠準點能夠安全能夠到位"},{"start":2920.287,"end":2938.523,"text":"到目前為止有做到嗎來 市長本席一直關心 因為一直都在交通委員會我們0402的太魯閣號的事故確實大家都非常的難過也是讓台鐵真的公司化的一個很重要的關鍵我們"},{"start":2940.585,"end":2960.555,"text":"4月2號我也出席了我是唯一一位立法委員出席我們當天晚上的紀念音樂會但是本席當天其實也有感覺到為什麼大家也都在討論我們花了八千多萬去做所謂的燈光的吊唸紀念"},{"start":2962.196,"end":2989.529,"text":"台鐵這兩天被大家全都砲轟講說安全沒有到位準點沒有到位人員的改善沒有到位工作環境沒有到位我們還多花八千多萬金額高低一回事可是台鐵現在給我們的解釋居然講說是家屬的建議又要推給家屬啊家屬情何以堪啊台鐵做的決定然後現在講說是家屬的建議那大家是要再針對家屬嗎市長"},{"start":2992.366,"end":3015.339,"text":"能不能說句公道的話 到底我們現在花了這八千多萬有沒有把錢花在刀口上我跟委員報告 確實這個案子外面的外界對這部分都有一些意見但我跟委員報告 這個原來的案子我們最早是希望在當地就事故地點立碑的方式"},{"start":3016.039,"end":3038.035,"text":"那當然那時候跟家屬在討論的時候他們認為這個太過於傳統他們希望一個不一樣的所以後來才變成協調是由所謂的在隧道裡面設置燈光的方式那因為它比較偏遠所以它的相關的一些單價還有必須在就是停班以後才可以施作所以相對的一些這個費用會比較高一點"},{"start":3038.795,"end":3067.835,"text":"我想這是讓我們台鐵一定記得這樣的一個事情就是四年前的零四零二的問題當成我們的一個最大的教訓我想在安全的方面台鐵的改革是永無止境的當然台鐵改革是永無止境的但重點是用了大家都記得我還記得那個時候就是在清明連假結束之後的交通委員會9點28分到的時候大家都在討論"},{"start":3070.031,"end":3097.987,"text":"我們也希望能夠台鐵永遠記得這樣的一個事故不是說用經費用這個燈光重點是改革嘛安全嘛是好所以來市長想請教一下怎麼會突然間讓大家也覺得很訝異董事長就請辭了那我們備位的董事長您這邊是站帶嘛是無預警的提出請辭這也讓大家覺得說很訝異啊"},{"start":3099.315,"end":3117.371,"text":"有沒有去了解 來是不是說明一下你的代理會代理多久代理還不曉得目前在尋找適合的管理人所以董事長的請辭沒有給我們交通部有任何找紀委人選的時間他就是要離開"},{"start":3120.68,"end":3143.314,"text":"他是生涯規劃啦我瞭解是這樣子我看到啦你們新聞稿寫生涯規劃嘛是但重點在於是說台鐵公司這麼重要重要重要是啊那怎麼會我相信以董事長之前也是一輩子的台鐵人了是那連多一點時間給我們交通部去找說專業的董事長來接任也不願意"},{"start":3145.361,"end":3172.439,"text":"中間溝通出了什麼問題我所理解的應該不是這樣子啦我想這個過去他有提出來那當然我們有一直在慰留他嘛那因為他後面的行程已經排定了所以我們大概只能尊重他所以你預計代理多久也不知道應該很快什麼時候能夠提出來人選你是次長你總該可以了解吧沒辦法跟委員報告你這算是救火是不是"},{"start":3173.769,"end":3195.766,"text":"這是目前因為現在還沒有一個適合人選那先由我來暫時代理是嗎所以你講到重點嘛在於是說台鐵的公司那麼重要合適的人選還沒有找到然後就任董事長就離開然後讓你要來代理那我們行政部門或說我們民進黨政府到底哪台鐵公司當然是什麼我想這個部分最後來"},{"start":3197.793,"end":3224.143,"text":"我看到我們台鐵公司剛滿一年但是向交通部要提出希望能夠爭取公司考積列甲等但目前掛牌首年虧損了137億點多事故又更多大多數又是人人為的事故所以市長是台鐵爭取考積列甲等交通部會同意嗎"},{"start":3226.153,"end":3252.685,"text":"這個交通部沒有既定的立場因為這個考程它有相關的規定這個列出來是前董事長的指示還是你的指示這是他們把過去之前嘛對 之前的時候就已經依照各個指標然後把資料送上來那由交通部先做一個初審那你現在接代理董事長你滿意現在台鐵的指標嗎看到剛剛的事故有改善的空間"},{"start":3254.695,"end":3277.7,"text":"有改善的空間有努力的空間換言之其實到目前為止國人在一年了公司化還是沒有感受到台鐵有脫胎換骨改善的決心更不要講是我們今天還在討論你要活化資產不是不能活化公司化本來就是有更彈性的空間但重點"},{"start":3279.18,"end":3304.886,"text":"請真的不要忘記因為後面還有其他委員要質詢本席只想強調請不要忘記不管是公司的話不管是台鐵大家對你的期待其實重點在於是安全安全還是安全沒有做到安全什麼都是白談是不要本末倒置不要讓國人覺得台鐵記取事故教訓只是射燈射燈光"},{"start":3305.891,"end":3313.495,"text":"只是每年行李如宜而沒有真真正正把台鐵的改革放在心上是謝謝是 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請黃國昌委員"},{"start":3335.372,"end":3356.897,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請交通部政務次長,也是台鐵的代理董事長請次長委員好次長好,台鐵有很多事情其實讓納稅人看不太懂我一樣一樣來跟您請教,第一個"},{"start":3358.63,"end":3384.833,"text":"志強號EMU3000型的列車當初說是台灣最美的列車結果跑我們的東部幹線座椅不符合人體工學民眾坐得腰痠背痛充電器難用這些事情之前交通部的部長陳士凱在這個委員會接受質詢的時候也說了說他自己做"},{"start":3385.894,"end":3393.403,"text":"都覺得有這樣子的問題這必須要改善現在目前這件事情改善的進度如何"},{"start":3394.418,"end":3420.376,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想為了這個座椅的關係我們大概也不好意思你就直接講現在改善的進度如何我們現在已經找出最優方案已經找出來了那現在要進行所謂的所以還沒有開始進行對不對還沒有開始沒有關係第一個那你們現在改善的所改善的方案要花多少錢"},{"start":3423.783,"end":3434.431,"text":"改善方案要花多少錢大概1.7億左右來看一下一列改裝的費用是369萬有50列乘起來是1億8450萬這個數字沒有錯嗎沒有錯我現在問題來了你們當初跟大家號稱"},{"start":3445.248,"end":3471.655,"text":"還有什麼人體工學小組一堆專家參與結果搞了半天新的椅子做了難做還要花一億八千四百五十萬這個錢誰要出這不是舊的車子喔這是新的車子喔新的車子以後發現椅子很難坐處理的方式是在花一億八千四百五十萬來改這個錢誰要出"},{"start":3475.834,"end":3503.51,"text":"沒有人要負責嗎還是沒有關係這納稅人的錢盡量花隨便花亂花反正又不是決策的人要出這件事情交通部有檢討嗎台鐵有檢討嗎還是一億八千四百五十萬在台鐵的眼中這小錢啦藍三的啦沒有關係啊是這樣嗎說明一下這件事情誰要負責"},{"start":3504.858,"end":3514.783,"text":"我再強調一次喔這是新車喔這不是舊車喔這不是舊車老舊要去換設備是從新的車開始座椅就有問題連交通部部長都承認有問題結果再花一億八我們的政府很有錢還是台鐵很有錢來說明一下誰要負責"},{"start":3530.687,"end":3547.953,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為這個當時他的座椅的材質是所謂的防火的耐燃的部分所以他比較硬一點那確實大概做起來大概補片的就覺得反應說比較硬這個我剛剛都講過了現在我要問你的問題是誰要負責沒有人要負責嗎沒有關係花納稅人的錢啊"},{"start":3559.133,"end":3588.042,"text":"現在大家看不懂啊我們的政府到底在做什麼決策粗糙品質爛新的車的座椅沒辦法坐沒有關係再花118來改還不是只有這件事喔再往下看普悠瑪完了以後又搞一個列控4.0找了一個詐騙廠商啊叫李立"},{"start":3590.049,"end":3618.038,"text":"怎麼勾上線的我有一定程度的了解李立啊現在是把我們啊國際桃園國際機場T3航廈的自駕車的系統搞得亂七八糟啊搞到要解約啊現在這廠商啊躲到哪裡去了不知道但是這個詐騙廠商啊政商關係良好啊關係非常的好之前搞一個列控4.0"},{"start":3619.827,"end":3648.126,"text":"花六千萬結果我又問應安會說系統根本不能用來你們這個列控4.0還要再搞第二期嗎公務員報告齁這部分我們現在還在評估啦還要評估多久還要評估多久我們會在我們董事會的那個安全我老實跟你們講啦當初錯了就勇敢承認錯誤啦不要以拖待變啦"},{"start":3649.861,"end":3674.394,"text":"所以要評估18個月這種爛東西需要評估18個月喔笑死人了啊你們反正就是用時間來拖延嘛之前花6000萬你丟一顆石頭到水裡還會動一聲啊你花了6000萬搞這個列控4.0是有什麼用什麼用都沒有啦我跟你保證你18個月買以後絕對不會繼續做啦為什麼不會繼續做 這東西太爛了嘛"},{"start":3678.863,"end":3701.271,"text":"當初六千萬拿給這個廠商胡搞瞎搞有什麼具體的成果什麼具體的成果都沒有啊政府很有錢啊納稅的錢國家的錢這樣亂花都沒有關係啊改椅子1.8億列控4.0再丟六千萬錢多得不得了啊再往下看台鐵遮斷器"},{"start":3710.583,"end":3736.005,"text":"1424號耗費近4.8億什麼時候裝得完本來預期什麼時候要裝完現在什麼時候裝得完跟我們報告現在這個我們評估因為涉及到電源的關係現在有關老舊所以變成電源的部分要先一併來做更新那現在我們評估大概會在明年的7月可以完成明年的7月吧是遲延多久了大概延了一年多"},{"start":3737.432,"end":3758.315,"text":"一樣啊爛的不得了啊從花蓮裝到彰化遮斷器放不下來之前我已經質詢過這件事啊來看一下現在進度啊本來要裝1424號本來去年8月的時候就要做完了現在裝了396套加上42套工料我的資訊有沒有錯"},{"start":3760.307,"end":3776.288,"text":"沒有錯沒有錯嘛什麼時候做得完 你說明年七月 上一次我問喔你們給我的資料是今年年底要做完但我看這個進度根本做不完嘛絕對做不完嘛現在要延到明年七月喔誰要負責任"},{"start":3777.93,"end":3794.404,"text":"第二個我上次來這邊問前董事長杜威跟我講說這個遮斷器之前出現了很大的問題因為那是鐵路停交道這牽涉到人命的安全我上次質詢的時候我說這家公司安全嗎"},{"start":3796.074,"end":3823.448,"text":"裝到髒話都不想要裝啊說不要來裝了啊會出事啊上次杜威跟我講說這個問題有收斂真的有收斂嗎到目前為止有收斂嗎我跟委員報告確實這些原因有在收斂中一個比較過去兩個月有沒有發生事故因為他遮斷器的問題有沒有發生事故有沒有造成人受傷 有還是沒有"},{"start":3826.722,"end":3847.956,"text":"有沒有台東的部分有一個對嘛這是你們上次跟我講的說現在安全沒有疑慮我上次質詢的時候台鐵回函給我安全沒有疑慮結果呢結果你們內部的人看不下去說那個董事長胡說八道說謊你們新聞蓋得很好這個是內部的人傳來給我的"},{"start":3854.713,"end":3868.744,"text":"又造成事故了啊又有人受傷了啊結果上次我站在這邊質詢啊你們台鐵董事長還跟我講說安全沒有疑慮現在呢今天還是拍胸脯保證安全沒有疑慮嗎"},{"start":3871.308,"end":3884.516,"text":"我跟委員報告剛提到的這幾個原因確實是前面幾個因素已經弄得已經收斂差不多現在就剩下電源的部分那電源部分因為舊的電源比較不穩定我們現在要講電源就來講電源"},{"start":3886.977,"end":3915.329,"text":"上次我就講了發刀的時候沒有做好就開始東拉西扯說電源有問題然後你們之前還編了1.9億啊你事情沒做好國家還要再編預算花1.9億讓你去花1.9億讓你去改善電源來我們看一下這個是你們本來追加1.87億嘛這是你們台鐵本來台鐵電廉智慧化提升計畫裡面的內容啊"},{"start":3917.646,"end":3939.743,"text":"是吧我公開諮詢完了以後說這個不能給同一家特定廠商做這也出事了說現在要公開招標說3月要發包絕標了嗎還沒有這樣還沒有絕標網路的絕標什麼時候要發包還要再拖多久1年的4月就會發包"},{"start":3945.093,"end":3965.293,"text":"我再講一次你們112年回函的內容是什麼?遮斷感沒有電流不足的問題結果現在廠商東西搞不好廠商東西搞不好我們政府解決的方法很簡單納稅人的錢拿來花我再編預算再讓你改善電流"},{"start":3966.727,"end":3995.47,"text":"現在我有個最根本的問題這個廠商當初在投標的時候他不知道既有客觀環境是什麼你們當初還跟這個廠商講不要去牽拖電流的事情結果現在最後政府讓步了政府讓步解決的方法是什麼納稅人的錢編啊用納稅人的錢去幫這個廠商啊之前給你4億多搞不定不僅遲延安全還有問題"},{"start":3997.652,"end":4002.315,"text":"現在解決的方法非常簡單我在編預算再給你錢搞我為什麼說納稅人看不懂我們政府很有錢啦預算這樣亂編亂花都沒有關係啊從頭到尾沒有人要負責嘛我有說錯嗎錢這樣花整個交通部看也沒有關係台鐵也沒有人要負責"},{"start":4043.742,"end":4070.868,"text":"謝謝台鐵改改善的還很多那個市長可能要先跟總經理現在整體要再思考一下有很多問題我之前問過了有很多問題沒有解決好我們現在請陳培鈺委員好謝謝主席那有請市長謝謝"},{"start":4073.189,"end":4073.209,"text":"陳社長"},{"start":4081.124,"end":4110.369,"text":"委員好好 市長辛苦了台鐵真的有很多問題需要改善喔這兩天的新聞我相信你一定都非常清楚不管是這個月台門的問題或者是這個安全的問題還有這個人翻覆過翻爬過去的問題我很好奇喔台鐵在相關事情上的規劃進度因為我知道台鐵一直有在做這個相關的規劃目前為止就您所掌握的進度不管是規劃事辦安裝纜繩月台門或者是安全門跟日本接近的這個部分我想要知道你們目前的進度"},{"start":4111.653,"end":4137.945,"text":"我跟委員報告這個月台門部分我們做一個試辦的一個工程是在高雄車站那這部分目前的展示的部分已經放上去了那後面的功能目前在設計我們預計在年底可以完成整個一個測試那在明年的三月可以把這個完工完工之後我們再來評估是不是在其他的月台的其他車站的部分來進行這個月台門的一個規劃好"},{"start":4139.105,"end":4168.311,"text":"我很好奇這個關於評估的標的到底是什麼因為你說年底完工然後就開始試做試辦然後看看這個績效如何狀況如何但我很好奇台鐵內部或者是一般人因為只要每次台鐵上了新聞相關的那個鐵路鐵道迷的朋友們的留言都是幾乎是網路上最熱烈但我很好奇台鐵內部自己專家的意見或者是專家學者的意見或是你們那個評估的標的到底是什麼"},{"start":4169.178,"end":4190.365,"text":"我跟委員我跟委員報告因為台鐵的車種非常多那這個為什麼是事半就是剛剛講的我們把它弄完之後我們去針對每一個車型然後去做一些討論有些的功能是不是應該增加有些功能是不是應該減少我想就是在這個時候我們來做所以才會到年底的時候才把這個事半的部分完成"},{"start":4190.785,"end":4211.149,"text":"其實市長你講到關鍵就是因為車型的樣態非常多然後每一個月台的狀況也不一樣還有呢就是如果這些狀況搭配組合起來那個排列組合的樣態會非常非常多那如果其實在這些為什麼一直有嗶嗶聲那個手機轉接一點好不好不要吵到大家"},{"start":4219.261,"end":4227.678,"text":"好主席我的時間好沒關係好其實日本在這件事情上我相信台鐵應該有接近日本的經驗那日本的經驗他們"},{"start":4229.229,"end":4256.266,"text":"的狀態可能跟次長您也講的差不多就是呢月台的樣態非常多元然後車種的樣態也非常多元所以排列組合起來他們所必須做的事情其實也非常非常的困難那日本的經驗他們其實已經告訴我們了相關成本非常昂貴保養的維運也很花時間又很花錢而且在現在各行各業普遍缺工的情況下這件事情做起來更加困難還有月台門也可能因為故障失效反而變成另外一個"},{"start":4256.966,"end":4266.292,"text":"另外一個危安的因素所以我也很好奇台鐵在這件事情上後續到底長期的規劃是什麼或者是說我們只能短期短期來看我們沒有辦法往長期去想"},{"start":4267.287,"end":4286.434,"text":"我想還是剛剛所講的因為它是個師辦那這裡面我們一開始其實研討加了很多功能那過一陣子我們剛剛講了開始做了以後我們去討論這些功能是完全不要那我們這邊是希望是自主開發居多還是以日本的系統搬過來用然後做一些改良為主"},{"start":4287.314,"end":4314.366,"text":"我們不見得說一定是參考以哪一個國家的金額為主我想是依照我們目前我們台鐵公司的樣態來做比較實在好如果是這樣那代表我們會有自主開發成分是高的那如果自主開發成分是高的我要拜託次長不管後續您或後續的董事長是誰我認為在中間實測的過程當中我們在自主開發所會遇到的困難不管是經驗上的困難或者是人力上的困難專業上的困難"},{"start":4316.247,"end":4330.715,"text":"這件事情我們到底如何解決還是我們每次都只選一些固定的站點做一些示範然後好像就可以對安全這件事情有所交代我認為人民還是有疑慮的所以要拜託次長要把這個問題帶回去繼續作為一個非常重要的施政參考"},{"start":4331.335,"end":4360.063,"text":"那我知道台鐵在2019年曾經有做過智慧影像辨識的事情當時我們討論到因為有隱私的問題還有相關系統可能有中國製的產品的問題所以就喊停那我要提醒次長2019的AI到了2025的AI樣他已經不一樣了那台灣有沒有能力自己做這件事情有沒有相關的評估你覺得我們有沒有機會往這一段去評估用AI重新啟動作為輔助防止越台旱事的可能性"},{"start":4361.404,"end":4368.536,"text":"這確實在2019的時候曾經有想要試辦那剛剛就提到了因為有隱私權大概那時候外界對這有點意見"},{"start":4370.495,"end":4391.486,"text":"那現在剛講AI應用很普遍我想除了我們編播之外我想這部分我們可以來研討看看好 那我希望你們帶回去研討這件事情因為我相信台灣是應該有能力自己做這件事情如果按照您說的剛剛纜繩月台也好 安全門也好台鐵有更多自主研發的空間我認為一併把AI系統納入應該是可行的好嗎"},{"start":4392.506,"end":4404.166,"text":"好這題我們之後也會往下追喔在接下來小年夜北中南電纜遭到接連破壞當時王定宇委員提醒說可能會有國安的疑慮我想問一下目前這個案子追查的進度是如何"},{"start":4405.236,"end":4423.474,"text":"跟委員報告,這個案子已經破案了,應該只是附近的相關人士為了貪圖,他要去賣那個銅線的這樣的物料,獲取一點金錢那這個已經破案了,我想這後面,我們後面會好好再去處理"},{"start":4424.409,"end":4439.356,"text":"所謂好好處理值的事就是剛剛講的我們會跟我們的路警局可以這個橫向溝通更清楚因為其實他們對周遭的哪些的人員可能會去做過切道這樣的一個動作應該都有掌握"},{"start":4439.656,"end":4457.59,"text":"好 所以次長你已經說出兩個字你認為這是單純的竊盜事件對 目前看的案子是這樣目前看是這樣好 沒有問題我們可以接受這個說法但是我們也是要參考我認為相關事件真的很有可能在台灣發生在巴黎奧運的開幕當天法國鐵路網就遭到惡意的攻擊"},{"start":4458.331,"end":4475.667,"text":"那我認為在目前的情況下台灣不是沒有機會遇到相關國安的問題在台鐵的整個系統當中你自己有沒有想過這件事情在台鐵目前系整個運作系統當中的因應能力到哪裡或者是整個因應系統的準備我們現在做到哪裡了"},{"start":4476.167,"end":4502.482,"text":"是,這個我想這個我去台鐵以後,我有發現這個問題我覺得它真的很重要,因為台鐵畢竟是他們的一個骨幹,藝術骨幹那針對治安的部分,我想那時候跟我們的資訊處我們希望能夠針對整個驗證導入第三者來做治安可以達到A級的這樣的一個等級我想這部分我們後續會再去做努力"},{"start":4503.062,"end":4525.738,"text":"資安的部分歸資安 我剛剛提的其實不大是資安但是我覺得我很感謝你提到資安的部分如果在您的代理董事長的任內真的可以完成相關A級資安的認證我認為這件事情是會讓國人放心也會讓台灣整體社會的韌性是因此提高可是我要提醒 相關台鐵的演習劇本目前都只有停留在列車事故 對吧"},{"start":4527.241,"end":4548.717,"text":"對大部分是這樣那所以你們的目標是動員災防反恐是對好可是相關社會任性的概念目前我們放進台鐵的演習劇本當中連賴清德總統都要親自主持社會任性因應防疫委員會那我不知道台鐵作為台灣運輸主要的骨幹尤其如果在各種緊急狀況的時候我們有沒有這樣的能力去面對這個事情"},{"start":4550.258,"end":4572.976,"text":"這個部分剛講任性的部分我們目前也會把它導進來這是我們未來要努力的這個我們來做好 這個你們來做我就先把這個概念提出來那到底加入社會任性這個部分要做哪些事情我相信台鐵應該有能力去研究就算如果台鐵自己能力不足也許可以委託外面的專家學者或是跟社會任性防疫委員會討論好 最後一個"},{"start":4575.878,"end":4597.811,"text":"這兩天有這個新聞要突襲檢查關於駕駛室的事情因為我們說有這個列車駕駛停車失檔然後台鐵的回應是說要增加突襲檢查但是我看到相關的新聞有公會的代表受訪認為突襲檢查會增加駕駛員的壓力那我很好奇到底這件事情你們未來要怎麼做"},{"start":4599.436,"end":4628.055,"text":"我講說這個其實第一個我先講那個不叫所謂的突襲檢查可是你們新聞是這樣說的不是絕對不是突襲我們是剛講會加強飢餓但是絕對不是用突襲檢查的方式他是靠站的時候我們過去裡面到裡面去看也就是有點是一個指導員到裡面去看他的一些動作有沒有正常之類的那至於影音的這個價值式影音的這個記錄問題其實在幾年前就已經一直在談那當然同仁有一些"},{"start":4629.516,"end":4646.167,"text":"有一些不一樣的考慮到說隱私的部分之類的我想這部分我覺得最終正道應該是這個還是比較比較正道啦應該要去設置這個影印這樣記錄一個問題因為包括北捷啦其他的大概都有設置這個我們後面會來繼續跟同仁來溝通"},{"start":4648.609,"end":4672.9,"text":"好謝謝次長有承擔自己主動講出關於這個影音紀錄的問題因為如果要增加突襲檢查或者是所謂集合員進到駕駛室其實你需要增加人力而且如果駕駛員是有反彈的我認為需要溝通可是我知道我前一輪的質詢其實我在去年六月我就有問過影音紀錄的問題我知道當時很多工會的成員是反對的我們就公開的說但是在工會成員反對必須要兼顧他們的隱私"},{"start":4673.3,"end":4690.894,"text":"又兼顧國人的用車安全這件事情上我認為是需要溝通 需要討論如何讓所有這些工會成員認為他們是被尊重的不是被窺探的 不是被監視的但是我們的行政機關還是願意對國人的用車安全表示負責我認為這件事情非常非常的困難"},{"start":4691.494,"end":4708.751,"text":"所以如果次長您剛主動講到其實連北捷高鐵都有這個所謂影像紀錄這件事情但如果台鐵要加裝會遇到的困難要拜託次長真的積極的解決也許跟工會成員討論也許我們還有更多社會溝通需要進行是這是我們應該做的好謝謝謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":4722.787,"end":4738.559,"text":"謝謝 我們請廖先祥委員好 謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們次長請次長委員好 次長好"},{"start":4749.456,"end":4773.662,"text":"這幾天台灣最大的新聞大概跟交通比較沒有直接關係大概都是全球這個金融的劇烈的震盪那包括大家今天台灣的股市廉價完了之後開盤之後就是收盤了那這個當然是一個很不幸的一件事情就是短期的金融的震盪那我提醒次長就是在發生這樣子一個巨大的金融的風暴的時候"},{"start":4774.682,"end":4799.677,"text":"尤其我們的軌道運輸相關的安全的提升可能要提醒一下我們現場的所有的從業人員無論是駕駛或者是戰務的戰務的這個服務人員安全的部分一定要在這幾天要特別的提高警覺尤其我們我們自己本身同仁的身心狀況可能因為我們都是負責第一線的安全的維護自己同仁的這個身心狀況可能主管要多加注意啦好不好謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":4800.017,"end":4828.753,"text":"那這個在劇烈的這個金融這個事件之後啦那我們不曉得川普這個對等關稅的這個問題啦會對國內的這個經貿產生多大的衝擊那全球目前都是一個非常悲觀的狀態如果說他不調整的話那所以說未來可能會有一些國內也會有一些其他的可能這些經濟部優先要關心的事情就是從業人員會不會有五星價還是對國內的產業鏈造成一些裁員等等的"},{"start":4829.153,"end":4858.533,"text":"那其實在過去我們交通部過去一直以來都是非常的積極在不管是我們的台鐵或者是公車的司機等等這些長期以來其實都是缺員非常多的情況啦那未來可能經濟部會提出一些多元就業的安定計畫等等的那我希望我們的相關交通部所屬除了我剛剛提到的單位過去長期以來可能有缺員的一些職缺我們可能可以儘早來提出來以後你之後如果說真的"},{"start":4859.213,"end":4874.738,"text":"造成了更大的危機的時候也都可以第一時間提供給經濟部穩定安定我們國內的就業我想我們交通部雖然說我們不是事主但是我們可能也可以盡我們的一份責任因應這樣的一個狀態那接下來我想跟市長討論的是台鐵票價"},{"start":4875.518,"end":4894.132,"text":"那台鐵票價其實在這個立法院休會期的時候有許多的討論啦其實我都在想是不是要趁立法院休會的時候趕快來放放風下來看看怎麼樣然後這個來一個措手不及啦那目前我們這個董事會通過的方案大概是28%嗎26.8%不好意思口誤26%"},{"start":4900.829,"end":4920.154,"text":"過去其實以來我一直的主張就是合理的公共運輸的一個票價提供給民眾一個穩定舒適安全的乘車體驗我想比一枚的鴨子票價來的重要那有些部分如果說經濟比較弱勢的對票價有負擔壓力的"},{"start":4923.035,"end":4937.863,"text":"他可能是透過他應該是透過社會福利的方式去給他協助而不是說我們降低票價讓我們的公共運輸的服務品質沒辦法提升這是我一直以來我一貫的主張所以說我對於台鐵的票價我一直以來都沒有反對但是誠如剛剛所說的這個"},{"start":4942.204,"end":4963.875,"text":"這個全球的金標發生很大的問題國內的經濟可能短期內也會有很劇烈的波動那我想確認一下這短期內的一個經濟的劇烈的波動會不會成為我們台鐵我們原本是預計六月就是要調整票價會不會是影響我們票價調漲上路的一個因子或者是調漲票價幅度的一個考慮的一個因子"},{"start":4965.245,"end":4972.533,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個案子其實行政院已經核定了那我們現在目前還是依照大概依據在6月26號"},{"start":4975.757,"end":4999.522,"text":"要進行票價的一個調整那因為他其實剛剛提到的我們大概只有26.8%其實以這個利潤課運的部分我們的利潤大概只有抓0.3幾%而已所以幾乎是0也就是說幾乎沒有所謂的報酬率啦所以我想我們已經考慮到所以我還是要提醒一下我們交通部啦或者是我們台鐵還是要考慮一下這個社會的觀感啦"},{"start":5000.462,"end":5020.988,"text":"當然如果說短期內這個經貿的風波過去了當然最好大家都樂見這樣的情況那如果說這樣子一個經貿的危機或國內經濟的問題持續的在升溫的情況那我們台鐵又在相關的運輸票價裡面去漲了20多%那包括高鐵前幾天有新聞出來嘛票價有可能去做一個調整"},{"start":5022.208,"end":5039.618,"text":"那其實民眾對於我們這個相關的觀感我認為你們必須要審慎的來評估考慮啦或者說我們當然現在平益是20多%其實我也是認為一次20多%的一個比例這當然是長年累積起來的一個結果不一定責任都在你們的身上那只是說既然要調整的話"},{"start":5040.638,"end":5064.327,"text":"一次20多%其實民眾會感覺是非常大的一個改變我會建議啦就是說逐年的來提升譬如說我們一年或者說因應這個我不會說遇到了金融的問題我們就不調漲我們總是要走第一步但是一次26%如果說到時候國內的可能經濟問題就業問題逐漸浮上檯面之後我們有沒有其他配套的方案能夠"},{"start":5065.228,"end":5071.015,"text":"讓民眾對我們交通部或台鐵不要那種好像我們生活經濟已經很困難了結果你們還在漲票價搶錢這樣子的感覺"},{"start":5073.971,"end":5102.154,"text":"我跟委員報告其實剛剛提到票價的部分如果以短程來講我們所謂T-pass所以它其實並不受短期就是我們通勤的並不受影響假設你沒有加多T-pass又沒有T-pass的時候譬如以台北到板橋大概就增加7塊錢比公車比捷運都便宜很多所以並我覺得這樣對應該這樣是有考慮到整個社會的一些接受程度"},{"start":5103.055,"end":5112.912,"text":"我還是建議我們的台鐵啦當然這個是核定是政府部門的權責我還是會建議一下這相關調整的比例或者是我們目前面對的國內的一個經濟的一個動態"},{"start":5115.069,"end":5135.402,"text":"我們是不是可以考慮我們知道我們長期來台鐵都是在補貼都在虧損補貼的那我建議是不是能夠分年度分段的來調整來避免對我們民眾的衝擊太高以上給我們希望我們能夠多多參考啦好不好再拜託幫幫我們的市長謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":5147.005,"end":5161.021,"text":"謝謝 我們請李鴻哲委員謝謝許志傑召委 請一下次長請次長"},{"start":5170.122,"end":5188.492,"text":"市長我們先來討論一下有關於高鐵票降是否調漲的這樣的一個議題那每年的4月交通部會依台灣地區的消費者的總指數來訂定高鐵的一個基本的匯率那他的"},{"start":5189.692,"end":5208.382,"text":"時程 流程大概是每年4月的時候先由交通部來訂定票價的一個基準然後高鐵去調整這個票價送到董事會經理有同意再送到立法院來做相關的備查流程應該是這樣沒錯的那我們在"},{"start":5210.144,"end":5224.618,"text":"2015年的時候其實交通委員會就有決議這個票價是要送到立法院來備查那為什麼會有2015年這樣一個議題因為在2013年的時候高鐵有第一次的票價調整"},{"start":5225.859,"end":5242.475,"text":"那時候在2013年我就提出高鐵的問題是運量而不是票價的這個問題那到2015年也因為財改以及高鐵的營運狀況停滯不前所以又調回原本現在這個票價"},{"start":5244.417,"end":5259.213,"text":"我們2024年跟2025年我知道我們交通部依照台灣地區消費者物價的總指數訂定的基本匯率是每公里4.55億元"},{"start":5261.155,"end":5281.992,"text":"如果按照這個匯率啊台北到高雄的單程票價它累積有230元的這樣的一個漲價的空間那當然啦我們在2013年我提出這個高鐵的議題啊其實就是它是醞釀的問題而不是票價的問題那高鐵"},{"start":5287.639,"end":5315.198,"text":"針對調漲票價與否他主要有內部成本的思考以及外部就是相關的社會經濟環境的問題以及相關的供需以及市場競爭的這樣的一個狀況來做調整那其實我們來看是否有調整的空間我們來看高鐵的運量跟營收其實都是有增加的"},{"start":5316.259,"end":5344.117,"text":"高鐵旅客的總人次在2019年的時候總人次是達到他的總人次是達到達到6700萬以上那6億啦 應該是6億人次以上那高鐵的旅客我們來看他的日均人次啦"},{"start":5346.818,"end":5365.895,"text":"六千 這個我們來大家來做確認高鐵旅客的日均人次在2019年的時候是達到18萬人次那2025年2月的時候他的日均人次達到22萬4千人次以上"},{"start":5366.576,"end":5373.181,"text":"那高鐵的營收增加2023年的營業增加營業收入是498億2024年他的營業收入是531億他的營運"},{"start":5379.96,"end":5393.404,"text":"他的旅客人士他的收入都有明顯的增加我認為是應該要維持原票價那今年我們就不予同意來做這樣的一個調整這是我的建議來市長簡單說明一下說明一下確實剛剛就如這邊所提的"},{"start":5397.185,"end":5424.112,"text":"它運量一直其實在提升比如說以昨天的那個高鐵運量它又32萬比剛講的22本來2月的時候就24萬昨天又創了大概32萬就算是很高我講的是日均人士你講的是廉價期間的這個人士對對我意思說它的其實它不斷的運量不斷的在增加那目前我們確實我個人我也覺得不太適合去談票價調漲的問題"},{"start":5425.552,"end":5447.27,"text":"也許過兩年之後那新車進來以後那新車進來以後它一些成本可能會一些增加那時候才是一個比較適合來談票價調整的一個時機好 這個是我們對於高鐵票價調整與否的一個基本的態度那我們接下來來談相關的高雄計畫就是鐵路地下化"},{"start":5448.595,"end":5456.54,"text":"它原本就是高雄計畫鳳山計畫以及左營計畫它的總經費是達到998億元那統稱為高雄計畫那這個計畫其實在目前我們來看它相關的這個經費的議題它的總經費是998億那其實到114年"},{"start":5473.823,"end":5477.827,"text":"累計總共編了803億元那其實計畫還有195億元那這個我認為鐵道局應該繼續來辦理修正計畫的一個展延這個期程"},{"start":5490.681,"end":5505.93,"text":"讓這個經費剩餘的195億還能夠做充分的一個運用那因為我們來看高雄的這個鐵路地下化當然第一階段都已經正式的通車新增加7個通勤車站"},{"start":5506.857,"end":5528.535,"text":"然後我們也做了綠園道相關的立體化設施 路橋的拆除 地下道的填平都已經陸續的完成但是還有很多計畫我們還要繼續的去做改善跟充實例如我們的高雄車站與周邊道路的相關的連通"},{"start":5532.127,"end":5547.941,"text":"這個楊局長也應該知道我們高雄車站經過一個九如路另外一邊是建國路要到路的另外一邊要橫越馬路我認為應該要做地下通道如果地下通道要做商店街的話"},{"start":5549.124,"end":5577.97,"text":"地下街這樣做商業營運的話是必須要跟高雄市政府來做協調跟處理如果單單是通道的話我們鐵道局就可以去做規劃就可以去做那車站也應該要更智慧化的這樣一個提升那還有車站的一個界面的整合包含這個跟捷運黃線還有相關的這種聯通等等都必須要去"},{"start":5578.77,"end":5606.659,"text":"下一步必須要去進行這個施作那還有高鐵南沿的這個計畫到高雄車站相關的介面整合跟先前的工程也都必須要先做處理來我希望這個經費能夠繼續展現來說明一下是跟委員報告謝謝委員的這個提示確實剛剛講的高雄計畫目前大概還有剩錢到他計畫到114那現在我們大概請鐵道局要進行所謂的修正計畫因為"},{"start":5608.479,"end":5627.324,"text":"從這裡面剛剛提到其實周邊還有很多事情可以去做包括像現在我們的高鐵要進到高雄車站跟過去已經不太一樣所以這整個環境必須要再做一個整合我想這個後面我們大概會依照這間委員這樣所一個提議我們會去做辦理修正計畫"},{"start":5628.484,"end":5640.453,"text":"另外針對高鐵的一個年度的旅客總人次我在這邊做個補充更正2019年的總人次是6741萬人2024年的總人次達到7825萬人次以上這個搭乘人次是越來越多最後我簡單問一下我們的台鐵"},{"start":5657.179,"end":5685.748,"text":"北回的這種改善的初步評估計畫就是所謂的轉股計畫因為和平跟崇德之間我多次在交通委員會要求做改善短期的我們針對落實偵測邊坡的這種處理加強他的安全的韌性這是短期的計畫那交通部在我們的要求之下也進行了這樣的一個初步的評估計畫我知道大概有兩個方案第一個方案"},{"start":5686.468,"end":5711.77,"text":"是在仿造這種攔回在海濱設置高架設置高架一個替代方案另外一個就是走比較內陸是做相關的隧道的一個不管是民隧道或是挖隧道來做一個安全改善的這樣的工程那這個評估報告1月的時候已經有送到交通部了對不對來說明一下目前的期程"},{"start":5712.29,"end":5724.816,"text":"沒有,這個大概是還在台鐵內部的一個評估啦剛剛提到這是一個很初步的一個評估你跟台鐵對一下,1月的時候有一個初步的報告有送到這邊,現在在做審查啦"},{"start":5726.02,"end":5742.716,"text":"沒有那你們現在目前的進度是什麼先要剛剛講這個是一個很初步的評估裡面剛剛提到大概有幾個方案去做一些探討那這邊牽涉到所謂戰場的問題還有第一個如果是走邊這個海邊的部分就是說高架橋的部分當然有場戰的問題還有安全的問題"},{"start":5746.059,"end":5765.611,"text":"還有他的強度的這樣一個韌性的維護還有相關的生態的衝擊等等這都是相關的這個在評估裡面其實市長你都已經初步有知道這樣的一個初步的內容我就說1月的時候就已經有送到交通部初步的東西有讓你們去了解"},{"start":5766.791,"end":5788.902,"text":"那這個我就不跟你爭論了那相關的資料我等一下給你看那相關的有關於台鐵票價問題就已經確認今年就不予討論了是不是這樣票價我們因為行政已經通過我想我們大概還是不是我講的是高鐵高鐵不會高鐵不會高鐵剛剛講的目前還沒有接到通知會議會計調長"},{"start":5803.448,"end":5816.769,"text":"謝謝坤哲委員這個那個希望交通部注意一下這個高鐵鋼的承諾這對人民是一個很重要的承諾好我們現在請魯明哲委員"},{"start":5829.315,"end":5852.194,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們這個現在變董事長 吳董跟次長請次長次長就請教一下我們現在剛剛這個台鐵啦台鐵的一個票價它的一個幅度它的現在進度14日期確定沒有"},{"start":5853.477,"end":5865.665,"text":"跟委員報告我想這部分因為行政已經核定了大概我們預估什麼時候實施目前一定是6月23日要調整6月份"},{"start":5868.755,"end":5894,"text":"其實我們當然看到每一次任何費用要調帳的時候我們勢必會有一些民怨產生但對台鐵幾十年票價沒有調過然後大家又對你的安全包括你的新車包括你的革新有很多期待但這一次我在坊間聽到的當然我們有些民怨肯定是有"},{"start":5894.6,"end":5912.914,"text":"但我覺得對於你們一個調帳的這個部分民眾更在意說他的錢用到哪裡去了再來就是說這樣可以促成你什麼樣的一個革新安全怎麼樣去提升我相信這個部分在台鐵也有這樣的一個認知吧是有好"},{"start":5914.995,"end":5930.872,"text":"錢用到哪裡去這是一個感受的問題你自己的每天的財務報表年度的部分只有你自己的看到民眾的一個感受啊我就覺得不管是台鐵交通部甚至現在代理董事長你們真的要去注意這個問題啊市長請問一下"},{"start":5934.675,"end":5960.809,"text":"這個紀念燈光八千萬 超過八千萬主任你是不是事前知情 還是推手之一這之前是有台鐵局 台鐵公司在處理的我是大概是當天知道的八千多萬 但是我知道報紙出來 你跟我們一樣 報紙出來你才知道不是 那個隧道燈光我知道 有做這個隧道燈光但是那個價錢是哪一天才知道"},{"start":5961.889,"end":5986.373,"text":"好那接下來是不是台鐵封什麼這個因為最主要是這樣第一個8000多萬這個是經費讓我們所有的人民感覺是怎麼會相對這麼高第二個是它這個燈光不是每天開大概按照你們的規劃每一年的4月2號開到4月6號就一年365天營業5天"},{"start":5989.514,"end":6005.785,"text":"那我就請教一下這個總經理來回答了那你這個部分為什麼不每天開會不會造成什麼平常列車的一個什麼樣的一個影響為什麼不每天開你說一下包委員先要做回應第一點是剛才說設置其實在"},{"start":6006.545,"end":6030.499,"text":"在112年的過程中我們跟家屬討論好幾次就包括要設一個紀念碑、牆還有地景的一個形式那過程中因為還涉及到這個是太魯閣國家公園的一個保育地區所以也不適合做大量的一些設施所以最後才家屬有提出來說那用光影的方式來紀念所以我問你為什麼不每天開啦一年只能開五天"},{"start":6031.499,"end":6056.825,"text":"好這個前面有說明第二個是說開放的啟用時間主要這個這個光影紀念燈光隧道紀念燈光他目的是在在追思然後在反省讓讓台鐵可以反省讓社會大眾能夠這個看到這個燈光能夠再提醒警惕台鐵繼續完成安全改革所以基於這個目的所以在選定在事故發生的4月2號為期5天的時間"},{"start":6059.505,"end":6082.537,"text":"這會造成行車安全上面的一些顧慮對 在過程中其實在決定這個用隧道紀念燈光我們也經過充分討論我們所有相關部門包括機務的部門 行車的部門都有做討論這會對行車的安全整體如果每一台列車都開的話整體評估會不會對於你們火車行車的安全是降低還是提升"},{"start":6083.978,"end":6109.836,"text":"我們是盡量避免他對司機員行車的影響所以那個燈光是在我們駕駛艙過去以後才會開始起你花了八千萬是第一個問題第二個問題是說你採用一種降低可能降低行車安全的方式來紀念一場非常慘的行車的事故我覺得對於往生者傷亡者的紀念"},{"start":6111.525,"end":6135.024,"text":"對於我們現在家屬的安慰最大安慰是什麼就是台鐵的革新跟安全體能就這兩項而已就這兩項你現在用一個開燈可能會造成不管是司機員反光或者因為光太亮如果有異物進入的時候不易發現你用減損安全的方式來紀念我個人覺得錢是一個問題我是覺得蠻大的一個諷刺"},{"start":6139.144,"end":6163.976,"text":"第二個 這也是你們台鐵第一次在紀念這樣的一個事故我是覺得值得紀念但是你們第一次採用直接在火車的軌道 隧道 行車路線上去擺設 設計這個紀念這是很恐怖的二 我們普悠瑪 普悠瑪事件也是"},{"start":6165.014,"end":6184.721,"text":"很糟糕啊在哪紀念呢你們都是異地嘛去台東火車站前面的紀念公園你們現在擺到軌道中啊我跟你講要不要人去維修要不要回修你說都沒事反光可以忍過看不到衣物那就每天在比運氣然後再來呢"},{"start":6185.541,"end":6197.851,"text":"什麼時候要去維修呢肯定要維修嘛不然隔一年這五天怎麼會亮呢誰進這隧道維修他要不要開機具進去每一個都是安全風險的因子啊"},{"start":6199.4,"end":6227.45,"text":"我真的是覺得你們在普悠瑪的一個事故花了836萬836萬在這個異地在台東的一個車站前面借那我不知道為什麼我跟你講不要扯到家屬家屬說換一種敬念碑的方式並沒有說你一定要用燈光說要用燈光並沒有說要花8000萬花2000萬不行嗎這是你們設計你們後面的一個制度啦"},{"start":6229.673,"end":6252.929,"text":"我想這個時間不夠啦 最後我也講 因為你們兩個監理單位不同那剛剛第一件事你們自己去思考 監理單位不同 裁發標準不一樣正好112年9月之前 是我們當時的伍聖元你當鐵道局的局長 你現在是次長那我們現在楊振軍是現任鐵道局的 接任你的一個局長我覺得很奇怪你知道嗎"},{"start":6253.729,"end":6264.815,"text":"那台鐵一直每天開每天開都不變問題大到小小都有結果奇怪了在112年9月11號以前居然監理單位沒有裁罰過"},{"start":6266.192,"end":6289.327,"text":"你知道嗎 即使在110年的時候太魯閣出軌 甚至更早的時候普庸馬我們當時的監理單位居然沒有開罰我們調資料沒有開罰發生什麼大事都是小事只要蓋得住 掩得住 藏得住都是小事但是我們看到112年9月11號之後是因為楊局長你上任之後這個革新勵志嗎 還是怎樣 我不懂啊"},{"start":6291.464,"end":6304.715,"text":"連續17個月開了12件那我覺得這個你去研究吧是以前太混了還是太認真了還是台鐵越變越差為什麼 什麼原因但是我最後一件事我真的要提醒你們"},{"start":6305.936,"end":6320.674,"text":"很多常在細節你現在是看小事一個小的裂縫哪天變成大裂縫的時候你們來不及你看看這12條裁罰的一個理由啊你請問一下注意看第三跟第五淺藍色標示那個"},{"start":6322.199,"end":6339.511,"text":"就是你們規定要九冊就未實施九冊也可以上去開那是什麼原因我是想不通啦到底為什麼這麼鬆散當然這112年的現在倒過去就罰那接下來呢有六件事情用紅色底的這個標示全部都是"},{"start":6341.615,"end":6358.877,"text":"體檢不合格的人上去運物站值班站長或者執行行車工作他就不合格我們陸海空相關的有一些職業人員你必須經過體檢因為他有一定的公共的責任車上幾百人"},{"start":6360.098,"end":6369.146,"text":"結果我看都高雄站我不知道在肯定誰知道哪一個司機員哪個體檢過哪一個體檢不過只有內部知道但你內部再怎麼鬥或者有什麼問題剛剛提的是對的啊而且鐵道局也下去去確認啊你是不合格體檢不合格的人不斷的去這個你覺得是不是不應該"},{"start":6387.168,"end":6403.871,"text":"不適任體檢不適合的人不斷上去 總經理你答體檢不合格我們是不能派任擔任不能派任 為什麼派了呢我們現在都有特別按照鐵路法的相關規定我們體檢合格的人員才會擔任執行官"},{"start":6405.052,"end":6422.007,"text":"第二十二項是一百一四年才發日期當然你發生日期是一百一十二年我最後也是希望鐵道局去研究一下你開個罰單要延遲兩年去檢驗現在一百一三年都沒問題嗎一張罰單一百一四年都沒問題嗎我覺得你這個東西要立竿見影 次長"},{"start":6424.409,"end":6442.082,"text":"督導一下有問題輔導期之後你說三個月對不對四個月你罰單就要開出來為什麼讓他公司能夠有這個依據內部一個懲處嘛像高雄站發生這麼嚴重的事這麼多次他的管理單位他的高層發生一次你處理"},{"start":6443.123,"end":6447.446,"text":"我跟委員報告 鐵路法是在112年修訂那剛提到那些 其實我現在要求鐵道局他針對台鐵的所謂的退行"},{"start":6469.551,"end":6484.03,"text":"耗資冒進這些要加強來處分也就是講白一點就是裁罰如果違反這個規定這是最基本的也就是說你的燈號沒有依照燈號去做這是很基本的所以這部我已經要求鐵道局這個要來嚴格執行"},{"start":6485.202,"end":6504.098,"text":"好 希望鐵道局能夠加快這種從看到這個事件到最後開罰因為你們在處理我們調資料也沒有 對不對到底113年發生什麼事到現在我調不到但我覺得這不好啦你委員也是好心在幫你們去push這件事情抱歉 耽誤很多時間 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6517.333,"end":6534.126,"text":"謝謝我們請林郭城委員黃主席請我們正式我們吳董事長還有我們馮總經理請市長還有馮總蔣委好"},{"start":6542.574,"end":6550.925,"text":"好正次我問這個題目台鐵董事長什麼時候產生"},{"start":6553.291,"end":6578.346,"text":"你說未來的事?對你現在是代理嘛對我現在是代理因為我現在問你是問政治長官有在努力在找這個適合的人選好那現在都還沒有確定就對了好那個其實政治我們很可惜的就杜威董事長其實他蠻"},{"start":6580.746,"end":6602.932,"text":"聽底下的建議其實工會給我的意見對他的離開有一點依依不捨啦依依不捨其實他還是老台鐵所以當然這是一些所有所屬員工的一個心聲其實未來要找他既然堅持要找"},{"start":6604.161,"end":6623.456,"text":"未來要找還是要像可以聽見工會聲音的董事長所以這點我特別跟我們正式要做一個建議讓部長考慮到這個問題千萬不要以顏色之分就是專長取勝"},{"start":6626.178,"end":6652.451,"text":"也就是用專業人才來經營台鐵公司這樣的成功率會比較高所以我特別跟政策去做一個建議現在吳董事長現在你們在做任何決策有沒有考慮因為我們台鐵有兩個工會一個企業工會一個產業工會他們的意見你們有沒有採納"},{"start":6654.712,"end":6679.817,"text":"工會的意見 度威的時候不要講啦就是你現在在代理董事長的部分是 我跟委員報告工會意見其實我們都有在溝通他的意見我們都會來來聽聽他的意見是怎麼樣那當然如果說有不一樣意見我們會進行溝通這個部分我們都溝通的管道很暢通好 吳董事長我給你提供一個意見工會有四大問題第一"},{"start":6683.227,"end":6703.954,"text":"維修預算不足的問題這個那個董事長聽完以後再來做回答另外就是留財待遇方案失敗的問題還有新人招募落後的問題還有人事政策錯誤的問題這四個問題董事長"},{"start":6709.054,"end":6725.356,"text":"總經理也可以回答到底有沒有聽得進去那我看這四個題目很簡單耶當事人 總經理這四個都是為公司好的議案啊那你們為什麼他們提出來的時候"},{"start":6726.685,"end":6749.897,"text":"你都不要聽這是什麼意思 我也不知道因為這裡面四個主題當中他沒有行私為他加薪或者為他要爭取什麼獎金等等都是為了公司經營這四個方向董事長 你的看法這四個問題到底你有什麼看法"},{"start":6752.606,"end":6777.678,"text":"剛講的預算不足我現在上任以後其實也跟到工會去跟他們談過 溝通過那我想只要他提出我們目前的預算一些急迫性的預算我們這邊都一定...他講的是維修啦 維修預算不足的問題啦我想有他急迫性我們一定會處理因為這涉及到安全問題嘛招募的問題呢"},{"start":6778.798,"end":6806.938,"text":"招募問題我講這樣子因為現在我們台鐵公司有分兩個制度一個就是原來留任的留任就是原來自衛制的人所以他適用原來的那現在這個所謂的從人員他大概目前行政院也核定了一個新級的的一個那個薪水的一個方案那這裡面啊我剛看了因為我們的他從人員他可以4.4個月原來的就職的部分留任人員大概只有2.5"},{"start":6807.879,"end":6837.359,"text":"我想這4.4就是一個機率另外最近我們在跟部裡面我們在爭取所謂的從人員的那些危險加急還有這個偏遠地區加急的部分如果這些的部分從原來的我們的起薪大概3萬6大概可以達到4萬4左右最高可以到4萬4好啦吳董吳董我們說實在的啦 工會的意見當然我們要重視啦其實我看完這些啊還有一個最重要的"},{"start":6837.899,"end":6845.034,"text":"我希望吳董事長要去注意就是人事政策的錯誤"},{"start":6847.011,"end":6871.605,"text":"這個要特別因為所謂人事政策的錯誤講快一點嘛他不是這個專長然後你們擺在這個專長這個是非常嚴重所以當然這種實力也不需要一一攤在陽光下可是我必須要讓吳董事長還有馮總經理你們要去了解在整個晉升方面不能因為啊"},{"start":6872.766,"end":6890.067,"text":"親疏遠離有所差別這樣的話就沒有公平競爭當然所有的員工他就無法去用賣命的心態去做我們的員工該做的事所以這個非常重要非常重要那個"},{"start":6892.412,"end":6920.158,"text":"來總經理我現在就是說以為台鐵國營公司化之後應該在國安因為每一次我都問到那個安全的問題那安全的問題當然我一直在拜託各位領導幹部也就是說你應該要比照高鐵的風險管理也就是風險的監控這個部分我們接下來看"},{"start":6921.078,"end":6927.239,"text":"我們來看一下 112年我們還是國營的時候改為公司的話 113年為什麼他的事故本來7770件那為什麼113年又增加1009件"},{"start":6944.935,"end":6962.525,"text":"董事長為什麼這樣?總經理你還可以回答我先講一下再請總經理補充這個部分我想跟委員報告一三因為他的有零四零二就是去年零四零二地震造成尤其是花東的部分造成真的比較大的影響"},{"start":6963.746,"end":6977.802,"text":"那以最近來講像前陣子我們發生過我也不曉得為什麼會車子會從平台開到我的軌道上因為這樣導致我雙向都變成沒辦法通影響我一千多分鐘"},{"start":6978.863,"end":7000.421,"text":"這我想對我們來講都是一個很大的問題扣除這些應該是跟原來可能跟去年應該是不然應該要更進步啦因為你說實話之後有很多事情就像我們下午要幫你們鬆綁了這些有關法令的限制這些等等基本上我們都支持嘛"},{"start":7001.041,"end":7016.002,"text":"但是你不能公司化以後比國營化的時候因為國營化它法令限制比較多嘛那公司化以後它依照公司化的經營那範圍會比較大所以我還是希望最後一個"},{"start":7016.903,"end":7044.594,"text":"我想特別要提醒董事長跟總經理也就是應安會給我們台鐵公司的應安改善的問題你們都只有做半套喔做半套這點我要提醒啊董事長就是公司的安全就是客戶的平安所以你們不能因為啊就是這個"},{"start":7046.275,"end":7062.875,"text":"應安會給你們的東西你們都遲遲不改進這對理科是沒有保障的所以我還是希望董事長跟總經理要針對這些問題啊特別要去做一些適度的改進那當然我們也希望"},{"start":7065.057,"end":7078.85,"text":"公司化之後當然範圍比較寬那也希望著重在旅客安全跟我們的運安安全的方面要去投入更多的改善那我憑良心講"},{"start":7080.222,"end":7100.467,"text":"我從來不做台鐵那我為了這個事情我一直去做台鐵那做台鐵主要是試看看你們有沒有改進確實多部分的班次你們說做到準時的這個問題所以我還是要勉勵啊特別勉勵我們吳董事長還有馮總經理特別要去註解第一"},{"start":7106.249,"end":7119.643,"text":"工會的問題第二該改進的要改進這點我特別拜託兩位可以做到這樣對理科安全平安才會有所幫助好不好這是我們應該做的好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":7129.607,"end":7149.694,"text":"謝謝等一下陳樹岳林軍那個王逸川諮詢完畢休息10分鐘我們現在請陳樹岳委員歡迎謝謝主席請主席邀請吳代理董事長請那個次長"},{"start":7156.775,"end":7185.042,"text":"委員好 吳次長早安 早我們知道台鐵公司化去年是第一年公司化第一年就遇到了花蓮的強震也遇到了多個颱風的侵襲我們看到台鐵的員工在天災發生了損害之後冒險搶修讓我們交通可以趕快的恢復所以在這邊本席也感謝我們台鐵所有的員工的"},{"start":7185.522,"end":7211.707,"text":"辛苦可以說是冒著生命的一個危險所以在這邊本席要關心的就是說有關我們台鐵員工的這個危險津貼還有夜點費還有地域加擠這個部分因為我在去年的10月的在委員會裡面我也有關心這個相關的議題那當時部長也有回覆說會盡速來研議那現在也過了半年多了我不曉得說這個部分我們到底有沒有進度"},{"start":7212.755,"end":7228.852,"text":"我跟委員報告,這部分剛剛提到的所謂危險津貼夜點會第一佳績的部分最近我們已經報到部裡面,我們在跟部裡面爭取,應該我想我們加強溝通,應該會希望能夠很快就可以下來"},{"start":7229.352,"end":7252.505,"text":"很快大概什麼時候預計我們再跟那個部裡面再做溝通我們是已經報上去了這部分我們也希望就是說為我們這個辛苦的還有這個非常在這樣子一個危險的工作環境裡面的台鐵員工爭取應該有的福利另外我們大家也都非常的關心這個台鐵的這個"},{"start":7254.346,"end":7269.478,"text":"人力的一個部分因為我們台鐵肩負著這個交通運輸一個重責大任那這個服務品質也非常的重要當然也是牽涉到整個行車安全那我們看到目前我們截至113年底我們台鐵的員工確數仍然高達1628人 是不是"},{"start":7276.463,"end":7295.116,"text":"那在這個部分我不曉得說對於這樣子的一個人員沒有辦法補齊然後也在沒有辦法補齊的狀況下也有同時這個在流失的狀況所以這樣子當然對我們的經營可能會更加的一個困難所以這部分我們有沒有什麼樣的一個對策"},{"start":7296.702,"end":7317.304,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為第一批大概去年的三四月的時候已經招募了那第二批次也是在最近也在招募我想我們會依照目前招募的情況如果不夠的話我們再進行第三次那剛剛我這邊要特別提的可能有外界在講說那為什麼沒有人報名"},{"start":7318.585,"end":7342.15,"text":"那最近我在內部討論的時候,我是跟同仁講剛剛提到的就是剛剛前面所提的危險津貼、低佳餘這些如果不明我們爭取到了,我會希望把它放到我們的招生簡章讓有報考的議員能更了解如果以現在我們最基層的大概是三萬六起跳"},{"start":7343.359,"end":7362.567,"text":"那加上這些幾個危險津貼啦這個這個偏遠地區的家籍這些啦月點費大概最高的可以到4萬4我想這部分我們會把它放到裡面讓那個有興趣的這個外界的更清楚我們的薪資的一個待遇"},{"start":7364.144,"end":7384.225,"text":"司長剛剛有提到 事實上我們也都有看到就是招募的狀況不理想那同時這個人才的流失也是很嚴重那剛剛司長有提到就是起薪的問題那所以我們在看說我們比較就是交通部轄下的國營事業起薪台鐵公司可以說是最低的"},{"start":7384.805,"end":7411.52,"text":"雖然說我們還有這個危險津貼還有夜點費等等可是這個應該是他們這個工作的一個性質的一個額外的我覺得這個部分不能夠算在內我覺得應該去考慮整個起薪的一個部分這樣子應該才比較能夠吸引這個人才或者是說吸引這個有興趣的人可以來投入我們台鐵的服務的一個行列是不是"},{"start":7411.9,"end":7434.142,"text":"是這個我想剛提到的這裡面我是不知道他們這裡面的起薪的部分他因為當然跟工作的性質有點關係不過如果光是以這樣的一個數據來看我想未來我們大概目前是應該3600大概是目前報出來的那未來我想如果有那個機會也許我們可以再考量一下"},{"start":7434.798,"end":7451.585,"text":"是好因為有關這個人員缺額的部分也牽涉到整個服務品質也牽涉到行車安全因為我想這個都是大家非常關心的那我們看到台鐵公司的話到今天已經屆滿一年了可是這個安全問題卻層出不窮"},{"start":7455.166,"end":7459.191,"text":"因為我們看到這個事故率在113年度事故數是976件比這個112年增加了202件這個增加的幅度高達26%可以說是創五年來的新高那這半年來這個陸續發生的這個事故裡面"},{"start":7474.19,"end":7502.15,"text":"又有好幾件事沒有依照這個SOP的這樣子的一個執行程序這個就牽涉到人員教育訓練的一個部分那因為流動率高然後招募不到這個新的人才我想在這個教育訓練上可能就是會有發生斷層的一個問題或者是不足的問題我想這個對整個行車安全是一個很大的問題跟威脅所以在這部分不曉得這個伍次長有沒有什麼"},{"start":7503.09,"end":7530.117,"text":"好的對策來改善這樣子的一個面臨的狀況我想剛剛講這個半年這五次幾乎大部分我們去檢視大部分是因為人為人為因素就是沒有一招相關的SOP去做那這中間到底是他訓練隊長那個環境的不熟悉還是訓練的問題我想這部分我們後續第一個心理一定會去加強第二個考核部分我們會加強考核"},{"start":7530.757,"end":7539.4,"text":"那當然這個人力不足的部分我們會盡快來補足剛提到如果說我們的招募上有缺額我們會繼續再進行招募"},{"start":7540.123,"end":7564.828,"text":"是好我想就是我們也看到次長在你的臉書也有提到就是員工是台鐵最珍貴的資產所以我們應該也要從這個方向去思考然後能夠就是有比較好的一個條件來吸引人才留住人才然後有完善的教育訓練然後這樣子才能夠確保整個這個行車的一個安全然後有更好的一個服務的一個品質"},{"start":7565.908,"end":7589.126,"text":"所以我想就是說針對其實今天很多委員都是一直在關心的就是這個台鐵安全或者是員工的減輕他們的負擔或者是提供員工的待遇等等這個台鐵目前面臨的幾個大的一個課題我們希望就是說台鐵這邊要用心審慎的去研擬更好的一個方案對策來解決這些問題是 我們來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":7603.752,"end":7631.347,"text":"謝謝 我們請王逸川委員好 謝謝召委我們請伍次長跟馮總經理請次長跟馮總委員好好 次長好 最近這個台鐵公司的在交通部的考程"},{"start":7632.421,"end":7659.714,"text":"引發一些爭議我先請問一下這個台鐵的票箱收入佔整個台鐵的營業收入大概多少報告委員我們票箱收入佔我們營業的整個收入如果不含政府補助是79%那如果含政府補助大概是55%左右那台鐵自從這個公司化以後"},{"start":7661.263,"end":7664.734,"text":"一般照公司的邏輯要賺錢可是一個國營的公司應該以賺錢為目的"},{"start":7669.844,"end":7692.675,"text":"我問次長,你覺得一個國營的鐵路公司不全然,社會的責任還是在所以有些時候要配合政府的政策所以我是建議交通部在對台鐵公司做考程的時候這部分一定要納入考量"},{"start":7693.695,"end":7711.976,"text":"因為它跟譬如說中華郵政不一樣它跟一些交通部所屬的這些公司在做考程的時候不一樣因為台鐵像現在也要承擔TPAS也要承擔各縣市的敬老愛心卡"},{"start":7713.53,"end":7741.969,"text":"那這個部分對台鐵來說多這些業務跟以前在台鐵局的時候這個差很多那這都給走給了雖然中央政府最後都還是給了補貼或者縣市政府給了補貼但是你說要變成做了這件事情多賺到錢其實很困難所以這塊請交通部務必在台鐵公司做考程的時候把這一條納入考量第二這個我們現在推動這個TPAS"},{"start":7743.67,"end":7770.327,"text":"占台鐵目前的營業收入大概多少T-BUS目前占我們的收入大概是20%左右那如果占票箱收入占整體票箱收入就占我們的整個票箱收入是14%占整個票箱收入14%這一塊也是交通部也要補貼"},{"start":7772.906,"end":7791.196,"text":"對 這個部分其實台鐵TPAS是只收9折的票價那其餘的就是交通部還有地方政府他們有一個那個這個金流庫那台鐵公司因為執行了TPAS的計畫對台鐵的財務造成負擔還是對台鐵來說整體是好的"},{"start":7798.734,"end":7822.065,"text":"這個部分在台鐵的運量部分如果從整體運量我們的運量從TPAS執行以後是有持續在增加但是因為我們還有負擔社會責任就是有9折的票價所以整個就整體收入而言我們是還要承擔部分的社會責任好所以站在公司的立場這個"},{"start":7824.312,"end":7837.79,"text":"台鐵公司 去執行T-PASS的發起者敢不敢收嗎就剛才證實說 我們還要承擔社會責任讓大家的通勤能夠更便利 還有可以負擔"},{"start":7838.41,"end":7863.779,"text":"好 那台鐵因為公司化以後的薪水分兩塊那原來的員工 尤其是跟技術部門有關的員工我想台鐵公司也一直希望能夠把這些員工留下來那因為既然公司化 跟一般的公務體系不太一樣公務體系就是你時間到了 烤雞到了就往上升 對不對"},{"start":7864.741,"end":7889.629,"text":"那公司化對於比較這一個公司希望他留下來的這些人才在薪資上就台鐵公司目前的薪資結構上有沒有彈性這部分跟委員報告因為他那時候選擇的是選擇原來的資位就是留任所以他還是適用原來的薪資薪資量一個制度所以沒有彈性"},{"start":7891.204,"end":7906.312,"text":"可以這麼說 彈性很小那可不可以把它變成有彈性一點現在我們在考慮他那個主管家級看可不可以去做中間做一些調整對 因為你現在新進的員工在技術上可能也補不上"},{"start":7907.506,"end":7921.089,"text":"那資深的員工可能留下來還要做傳承他時間一夠 薪水還沒去他可能就想要走這都很有可能所以在留住資深員工尤其是技術部門"},{"start":7922.322,"end":7944.39,"text":"那個客服部門這個重要不是這個有沒有必要把他那麼留下來用那麼高的薪水把他留下來就跟技術部門相比就不太一樣所以技術部門的這部分我建議你們一定要能夠把他在談薪水上能夠有彈性是那剛剛提到這個你們的徵才有時候不太容易"},{"start":7945.236,"end":7971.698,"text":"那現在台鐵公司有沒有具體跟技職體系的學校真的有具體的合作計畫也就是說他可能念高中開始 念高中開始其實就台鐵員工的一部分那台鐵介入到這個學校的授課那他高中高工念完三年之後其實就馬上上位了那台鐵派員工到學校去上課"},{"start":7972.659,"end":7992.148,"text":"那這些學生很快就變台鐵員工目前有沒有具體的這樣的計畫我們針對這個就所謂的產學合作目前其實是有在推好像是八所的高中高中職針對這部分我們跟他合作那這個有沒有保障"},{"start":7993.693,"end":8007.122,"text":"目前是只有產學合作的管道他們還是要透過考試我覺得你們應該介入他們的課程然後保障他們這樣這些學校也很好招生是就是說國中畢業他去讀這間高中他就叫台鐵科"},{"start":8011.988,"end":8032.666,"text":"台鐵科啦不要模模糕糕的台鐵科他高一級就開始在技術工開始二你們派資深的員工去做老師然後這樣訓練三年那上課實習的場域都在台鐵的維修場域在技術部門的場域三年後他的他就變台鐵公司的員工啊"},{"start":8033.627,"end":8045.097,"text":"像你不用訓練啊學校就幫你訓練而且你們的資深員工就剛好是老師不然這樣有時候你們雜入這樣的產學而做啊有點在牽MOU的感覺"},{"start":8046.4,"end":8070.03,"text":"有點在形式上我建議這一塊他能不能跟教育部大家討論一下怎麼樣讓他能夠具體的落實最後一個問題是當時台鐵從這個政府部門變成公司化的時候台鐵公司也提出如果台鐵公司化可以提升行車安全你們要記得這個承諾那這個承諾目前達成的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":8075.498,"end":8087.479,"text":"目前現在目前的數據看起來是還有很大的空間關鍵在哪裡我想安全文化的意識沒有升值"},{"start":8087.83,"end":8115.489,"text":"好就是說公司化那義士安全義士全體員工都要一起加強對應該一起加強那這一塊就是要台鐵跟這個台鐵工會跟所有的員工尤其是領導的階層大家要一起成長一起努力否則你們當時答應台灣社會說這個台鐵公司化行政安全會提升的當時要公司化這是很重要的關鍵"},{"start":8116.73,"end":8130.299,"text":"那如果沒有達成那當時公司化的承諾就是跳票所以這一塊希望台鐵公司從領導階層到最基層的員工大家一起對行車安全一起努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8166.496,"end":8166.516,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":8188.495,"end":8209.649,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8236.57,"end":8236.83,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":8249.369,"end":8249.913,"text":"謝謝大家 下次見"},{"start":8252.79,"end":8282.554,"text":"然後這個叫做花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?這不是花開嗎?"},{"start":8282.654,"end":8312.21,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8314.648,"end":8315.809,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"},{"start":8336.886,"end":8359.701,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8374.735,"end":8377.196,"text":"我底下"},{"start":8405.64,"end":8406.341,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":8429.978,"end":8434.839,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳"},{"start":8451.447,"end":8451.487,"text":"蜜蜂"},{"start":8496.842,"end":8498.783,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":8506.54,"end":8513.682,"text":"我們需要一組多點擔當"},{"start":8535.367,"end":8564.782,"text":"我們現在要做的就是,我們要做的就是,我們要做的就是,"},{"start":8570.636,"end":8572.258,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8578.177,"end":8596.055,"text":"這間餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":8607.581,"end":8617.465,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"},{"start":8622.427,"end":8622.987,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8666.857,"end":8682.52,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8693.916,"end":8702.159,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8766.357,"end":8768.409,"text":"放在一边"},{"start":8792.083,"end":8795.126,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8809.889,"end":8833.689,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8840.998,"end":8866.067,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8915.43,"end":8916.113,"text":"再問一遍"},{"start":8958.22,"end":8977.223,"text":"好 先來繼續開會 我們請林俊憲委員好 感謝主席 本席要請我們交通部五次長請次長我們鐵道局 鐵道局楊局長局長"},{"start":8979.352,"end":9006.104,"text":"文化部今天是文治局專委上文治局專委 委員好市長好本期要先來關心我們台南火車站就台南市的鐵路地下化現在非常重要的就是具有台南火車站的工程現在第二月台要如何處置第一月台是要保留"},{"start":9008.825,"end":9036.036,"text":"這屬於文化資產保護啦這個第一月台這沒有問題像是第二月台的問題那第二月台好像之前鐵道局是說那個下城市廣場以北的部分第二月台保留但廣場以南的部分第二月台要先拆掉到別的地方再重組這個如果做文物保留本席沒有意見我現在擔心的是會不會影響到接下來的地下化工程的進度"},{"start":9037.199,"end":9066.722,"text":"因為之前在地下化工程施工的時候就曾經會挖到文物遺址嘛已經停工兩年了當時就已經延宕兩年現在處理好了現在又遇到了這個火車站站體本身第二月台的問題好像在前幾天有開那個審議嘛是不是這樣有審議結論怎麼樣那第二月台有沒有共識第二月台處理有共識嗎現在有沒有人知道沒有人知道知道知道好來來請回答"},{"start":9070.854,"end":9093.289,"text":"第二月台的部分它對我們來說是報告案那原來他們希望的部分是讓它是之後是會在原地重組不會讓它移到其他的地方所以可以先拆除在原地重組嗎對所以大家跟文化界人士已經有共識了是是是是海上委員會沒有提出報告好那局長那這樣"},{"start":9097.028,"end":9115.683,"text":"會不會再耽誤到我們台南市鐵路地下化工程好 鮑偉我想這部分對第一階段的下地通車沒有影響也就是說後續怎麼樣去幫他控住你上面車站的問題對對對上面車站的問題那現在我們下方的軌道都跟相關的隧道工程都在積極的進行當中好"},{"start":9116.875,"end":9139.906,"text":"希望能夠盡速如期的我們來完成台南市最重要的一個公共工程這之一就是我們的鐵路地消化這個也是我們賴總統在他市長任內這個可以說是全力推動你也知道在這個過程也遇到一些困難但是我們都逐一的克服這個對未來"},{"start":9141.607,"end":9158.93,"text":"整個台南市的發展可以說是非常非常重要將既有的救市區因為鐵軌分成兩邊我們把它封合起來希望能夠如期完成 好吧好 這個沒問題那我現在那文哲舉可以 可不可以坐"},{"start":9160.373,"end":9181.007,"text":"我現在要請教兩位知不知道在今年年初過年小年夜的時候曾經發生我們的台鐵列車大霧點就是因為我們的號誌整個突然間故障號誌整個都亂掉了"},{"start":9182.284,"end":9206.767,"text":"那小連夜正是運輸尖峰的時候那突然間怎麼會造成這樣的一個大霧點後來去查原因就是耗資出了問題為什麼出問題因為電纜被偷減了市長你知道這個事情嗎我知道 我知道這個事情那我現在在想的就是我們的海底電纜發生多次了"},{"start":9207.915,"end":9235.263,"text":"被應該說肯定都是中國的船隻用故意的就這樣騷擾你就把海底電纜給撤斷了已經發生很多起了前幾天還發生中國的船隻又撤斷我們的電纜我們把人跟船壓回我們台灣港內來處理的事件那現在台鐵的電纜被剪斷"},{"start":9236.721,"end":9258.446,"text":"所以我就好奇 我就去查一下資料台鐵過去五年來它的電纜被剪斷像在2020年就一次了 2021年也一次2022年開始被偷減電纜的次數就大幅增加到去年就被剪斷了九次了"},{"start":9260.063,"end":9274.15,"text":"那因為台鐵也屬於國家基礎設施就是它國安設施的一部分所以你台鐵的電纜被剪斷這個要通報國土安全辦公室那也引起了行政院的注意"},{"start":9275.646,"end":9295.326,"text":"那這個事情次長你了解嗎我知道跟委員報告齁這個案子目前是已經破案齁目前齁 暫時排除有所謂你都是用竊盜罪嘛對對 那主要是因為那我會擔心嘛不管他是不是真的竊盜罪啦你只要被剪斷啦你整個"},{"start":9296.533,"end":9307.686,"text":"交通動線就受影響是乘客的權利就受影響對 上次小連夜就是因為這個原因所以造成我們整個第一個 我那時候懷疑就是說為什麼小連夜小連夜正式啊"},{"start":9310.018,"end":9337.891,"text":"運量最繁忙的時候那你那個時候去檢啊這個小時候你會被逮捕那個絕對會被抓到不是啦就是說那個警方就會有破案的壓力嘛對不對再來早年台灣還有偷加電算啦偷加電那麼去買啦現在很多有人在偷加電那麼去買什麼啦很多人去買這個啦是不是那結果反而相反啦你現在一年發生的次數越來越多啦"},{"start":9339.059,"end":9368.05,"text":"所以我要請台鐵我們鐵路檢查局今天有沒有來沒有來你隨便都把它當成就是一般的缺案就把它給結案了但是我們要做一些預防因為你台鐵是國家基礎安全設施基礎建設之一所以我就請教台鐵我說像你這樣電纜你2024年已經發生了九次幾乎每一個月都被剪斷一次了這還得了"},{"start":9369.278,"end":9397.933,"text":"我就請教台鐵 那你如何來反映啦 來回應啦 將電纜被偷減來 處長我給你看喔 局長你看一下這是台鐵啊 回覆給本席的公文啦我問他說你如何去防止 或者是預防 或者是如何去處理你的電纜被偷減你可不可以代替一下給我說"},{"start":9399.514,"end":9402.136,"text":"但是你說他要去打警告標語你再給我胡攏音也不要給我亂寫我問你如何去處理你電纜你現在暴增被偷檢的次數啦去年已經到9次了我問他你怎麼處理他給我恢復這個公文啦 出掉了你說他要去打警告標語叫大家不要來逃退啦 大家忙來做菜啦"},{"start":9429.482,"end":9455.042,"text":"跟委員報告 這個說法是確實是比較消極啦不是消極 你隨便給我呼嚨我還是立法委員 我還是交通委員會的委員我問你如果處理 你給我說你沒去圍牆貼警告標語叫大家忙來做菜 大家不可以偷家電 電線電纜因為亂來意那我再舉一個例子給你看我去查一下人家國外怎麼做法"},{"start":9456.84,"end":9485.399,"text":"你不努力也要用功一下 查一下這是英國鐵路公司啦英國鐵路公司的網頁他專門有一個頁面是在告訴大家這種電纜的確案他們公司要如何來應對我們台鐵也沒有任何頁面在講這個事情可見你過去都完全不把它當一回事啦但是當你一年有發生到九次從原本一年一次現在一年沒有九次被剪斷電纜"},{"start":9486.834,"end":9508.442,"text":"因為偷電纜是很愚蠢的竊盜行為很不容易囂張也沒有什麼人在買那個東西那你如果去防止你也要稍微研究一下隨便給我丟個公文你給我打發說你要去大警告標語就是很亂來的那我再給你參考一下像英國鐵路公司那怎麼處理"},{"start":9509.434,"end":9534.121,"text":"第一個他說因為有去偷檢所以他們用那個是可以追蹤的電纜就增加你囂張就是你這個檢下來就算髒物你就很難賣掉了第二個因為不是每一個路段都有可能被侵入去偷檢所以他在很可能會被偷檢的地方他都有裝置一些像監視設備甚至感應儀器還有他的電纜都是特殊的電纜"},{"start":9539.791,"end":9563.516,"text":"這國外有這樣的方法你可以去學嘛而不是貼個標語那如果萬一再發生我現在給你調你的資料你看你去年被剪斷9次那你絕對就是延誤班那個乘客的班車的時間啊 乘客的權利你一年損失多少你自己有沒有算所以切到不是不是剪下來就算了"},{"start":9564.622,"end":9573.714,"text":"因為你有成本啦 你要賠人家車票給人家退票你要補償乘客啊你一年因為棄案 撩我的錢 你知道嗎台北縣有沒有來總經理你知道嗎你也要算這個啦"},{"start":9581.892,"end":9595.012,"text":"那鐵路警察局今天也沒有來我因為沒有時間了啦你這個事情我請台鐵給我一個答案好不好你如果反應或者是說預防或者說萬一發生你如果去處理"},{"start":9596.932,"end":9613.809,"text":"已經逐年增加而且增加到不能忍受的一個程度了你居然被剪了九次了我現在懷疑這是不是刻意的啊海底電纜被偷剪那幾乎同時間2022年開始我們陸上陸地上的電纜也頻繁發生被剪斷尤其台鐵啊"},{"start":9616.102,"end":9631.474,"text":"你要去考量有沒有這樣一個關聯性嘛你每個案子你都把它隨便當成一個竊案嘛如果就算是這樣那你也不能讓它持續而且增加發生的次數嘛造成你台鐵的損失你也不處理你也不回復 你看你給我回復到什麼"},{"start":9633.187,"end":9639.771,"text":"我們會針對這個議題現在已經跟陸警局有橫向聯防他們有發現可疑的這個竊盜集團都會跟我們做聯繫然後我們現在針對可疑的地點就剛委員提到的我們也會來研議來裝設攝影機來看來加強在監控這個部分我們會持續來來把它"},{"start":9657.253,"end":9657.713,"text":"我們請邱若豪議員"},{"start":9690.121,"end":9691.283,"text":"好謝謝主席主席請臺鐵馮總經理請馮總好"},{"start":9708.201,"end":9736.248,"text":"馮總經理好是那本席上任以來以分別在113年還有114年的預算提案中要求台鐵要針對第一線執行人員是否應該佩戴密錄器有進行研議那同時也在去年的10月23日台鐵專案報告中也針對該一體進行質詢那隨後呢本席在今年的3月24日有收到台鐵的書面回覆內容表示"},{"start":9737.248,"end":9764.64,"text":"本公司已針對員工意願進行調查於114年3月13日提送工時協商會議研議隨身安全配備之發放還有的管理事宜那我回敬114年第一次車班工時協商會議決議出席代表全數不同意購買本案將持續進行溝通研議那對此回覆的內容本席退辭就交總經理那請問本次的調查中"},{"start":9765.82,"end":9784.747,"text":"是針對哪一些類別的員工進行調查報告委員我們針對這案子先前發生了幾次員工遭到旅客的一些言語辱罵還有暴力事件所以我們也在員工的建議下我們來做一個密錄器的一個調查"},{"start":9785.347,"end":9806.129,"text":"那這個調查我們主要是針對直接面對旅客,包括我們的乘務人員,我們的車長還有我們這個站務人員,票閘口,會跟旅客直接接觸,我們有做一個全面的一個調查那這次納入應該就是要被調查的員工人數大概是多少人?"},{"start":9807.302,"end":9823.027,"text":"人數的話我1039人1039人那實際完成調查的員工人數是多少人?實際950人是1139人那實際被調查的人數是900人調查表是950是950人嗎?"},{"start":9833.571,"end":9853.226,"text":"900人是900人那在接受這項調查的員工當中有多少人認為應該要佩戴密錄器認為有這個需要現在有依照我們業務單位是57人57%57%那總經理您這邊知道就是認為有需要的人數是多少嗎有計算嗎"},{"start":9864.461,"end":9892.021,"text":"對沒關係認為有需要的人數是510人那確實他佔了57%那認為沒有需要的是313人那佔34%那總經理那請問在這次的調查有多少員工認為應該統一供發密錄器對這認為有需要的我們在第一波的這個調查裡面那目前按照資料510人都是認為是有需要要"},{"start":9893.674,"end":9913.992,"text":"來做一個佩戴實際人數其實是513人那有500那其中那認為就是沒有不需要公發的人數是339人那換句話說有超過一半的員工贊成公發密錄器那加上沒有意見的的員工呢那就是有超過六成那請問總經理這樣的解讀沒有錯吧"},{"start":9915.982,"end":9932.851,"text":"對 如果按照我們先前的做針對我們要保護的對象的調查那既然有超過一半的員工他是贊成公發密錄器那加上沒有意見的那這樣子是打六成以上那為什麼在會議上所有的代表卻一致反對公發密錄器呢"},{"start":9934.42,"end":9946.319,"text":"所以就我們現在目前的了解因為3月13號有召開公使會議那相關的出席的代表老公代表也有表達就是在過程中因為"},{"start":9947.796,"end":9974.571,"text":"公發密錄器還要負保管的責任那我們有參考相關單位他們的一個密錄器的使用的相關規定那因為配發了這個密錄器我們就希望所以總經理您認為是因為要負保管的責任所以大家一致反對還有全程要做攝影他們也有提到這樣的一個沒錯 那個其中他是在第二點乘務執行中應全程開機錄影您認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":9976.947,"end":10002.808,"text":"對 在討論過程中他們也有提到他們舉例說如果上廁所也要開那我們內部是有評估就是有些比較特殊的涉及個人在執行過程中比如上廁所這種比較隱私的確實是可以來做一個關機上廁所也要開確實侵犯到隱私怎麼會有這一點說在執行的全程都應該要開呢為什麼當時沒有排除這一點"},{"start":10004.632,"end":10015.678,"text":"當初訂這樣全程是一個原則性原則性就是說希望發給這樣一個密錄器本身就非常的不合理當初我們就是在討論的時候就是為了要保護員工"},{"start":10017.674,"end":10044.65,"text":"那這樣子反而造成他們受到全面監控的壓力增加心理負擔那導致反抗和反感還有抗拒的心理這樣無助於安全那是否要重新來檢視這個管理規範對我們會再跟透過公使會議再跟我們的老方的相關的代表來做一個溝通討論就針對這樣的一個執勤中他們比較在意的一個事項大家去做一個討論不過因為"},{"start":10046.491,"end":10074.283,"text":"密錄器的這個發放它是屬於統一發放那我們還是希望它能夠發揮它的效果所謂它發揮效果就是說在需要的時候它的影像都能夠有記錄完整的記錄下來那才能夠確保我們公共的安全公共門派發密錄器早已行之有年我們來看到這幾個機關像在消防機關它在執行使用隨身影像記錄器的時候它有管理指導原則那財政部那它也有"},{"start":10075.385,"end":10092.624,"text":"他也有管理要點那包括台南市政府的社會局還有所屬機關那我們看到這三個單位的共同點都是他們授權佩戴人員他根據現場來判斷是否要開啟錄影他們尊重專業然後兼顧彈性他們並沒有要求要全程都要開機錄影"},{"start":10094.225,"end":10120.22,"text":"那台鐵這邊是不是要再重新討論對 報告委員就是因為每個單位每個同仁他的工作的性質是不一樣那台鐵是我們的同仁比如說我們列車廠在列車執勤的時候他是全部的執勤過程中都有可能會碰到旅客有一些這個不當的因為我們常常看到新聞畫面其實很多衝突都是由其他乘客來做側拍"},{"start":10121.221,"end":10144.474,"text":"那如果今天就是我們講到第一線的員工他們在執勤的時候如果遇到突發狀況他們身上至少有這個密錄器可以隨時按下然後做記錄那也是一個衝突事件的就可以拿來作為證據那為什麼台鐵一定要硬性規定要全程都必須要錄影那這樣子他們他臨時要去上廁所的時候他也不能關閉這樣是不是違反你們的規定"},{"start":10145.735,"end":10173.295,"text":"對我們可以針對這一塊就是說真正有涉及到他他的飲食不便的部分我們可以來做討論但我們還是希望說既然已經有公發密錄器希望在他執行的過程中都能夠把他相關的一些影像能夠記錄起來那也方便事後可以做這個相關一些責任的釐清那也可以作為相關單位查證的一個參考依據這樣才是保護才能夠有效的保護我們的第一線同仁"},{"start":10174.706,"end":10180.651,"text":"總之由於時間的關係,那請再提供我後續你們演繹的內容好,謝謝委員好,謝謝蔡其昌委員"},{"start":10205.014,"end":10211.604,"text":"謝謝主席 請五次長鐵道局楊局長然後台鐵局楓總經理楓總委員好 次長好"},{"start":10220.598,"end":10243.093,"text":"市長那個海線鐵道的這個雙軌高架本席知道因為楊局長在之前有到我辦公室因為我陸續都會追蹤那個進度局長也很負責任只要有新的進度就會來本席的辦公室商討報告那現在最新的進度是因為那個財務"},{"start":10245.694,"end":10262.544,"text":"台中市政府送到交通部來的財務規劃裡面還是希望財務要中央尋求中央的補助那看起來那個補助好像不符合中央的相關規定嘛是不是這樣所以我們又把報告退回請市政府修改"},{"start":10264.212,"end":10286.758,"text":"沒有問題 請局長回答一個報告委員 因為台中市政府在這個報告裡面有提到要求專案協商那按照要點 也就是我們立體化有一個這個審議的要點它有相關的這個計算的版本也就是說現在有按要點計算是A版本那台中市政府希望爭取比較優惠的條件這是B版本"},{"start":10288.37,"end":10306.297,"text":"我們這個在呈報過程當中因為相關的審議機關有意見所以我想我們會再來協助雙方來做溝通好 那也私下跟台中市政府講一下就是刪了中央的預算再加上財政授制劃分把那麼多的錢都給地方政府"},{"start":10307.057,"end":10333.711,"text":"所以要這個補助啊不是不行啦講起來獨立的嘛要中央大錢來補助基本上我站在海線立委的立場我不會反對嘛就分配的比例除了公視之外我們盡量來協助地方政府趕快民眾要海線的這個雙軌高架能夠早日落實本席是支持的也就是說在合理之外我們怎麼盡量來幫助地方政府把這件事情做好"},{"start":10334.446,"end":10360.848,"text":"但是呢你把財政授權劃分把它切割一大塊給地方政府再來又預算又要刪又要動那又要中央補助哇這個世間怎麼有這種事情所以你們跟地方政府溝通的時候也要跟盧市長講一下嘛你不能這樣你們這個黨不可以這樣幹嘛這樣幹的結果就是就是導致中央沒錢沒錢你又要發公文又要這樣寫這樣怎麼合理"},{"start":10363.855,"end":10391.129,"text":"所以本席很支持啦只要中央有能力我們就盡量來幫忙但是要弱化中央又要中央幫忙這個是緣木求雨啦這是做不高的事情所以我會希望那個楊局長緊盯這個公文的進度啦不要只發給台中市政府請他做修改修改之後可能又要過半年過一年才又再修改上來好不好這個我再一次提醒啦"},{"start":10392.912,"end":10415.937,"text":"第二個我想今天這個來講一下這個台鐵這個償債基金的部分我想我就不再多談因為它主要還是放在本席有提案希望在法在法裡面解決你們是希望那個辦法就是償債基金你們打算多久要把債償完市長30年嘛對不對你們辦法裡面寫30年嘛因為這個償債基金它不是一個"},{"start":10423.433,"end":10446.167,"text":"純粹性的啦 也就是它不是一支你們要藏在基金裡面你們要運為 譬如說裡面又有百年企業所以你們就一百年要去藏在兩百年 永久性的 長期性的 不是它就有一個年限嘛台鐵公司土地作價給鐵道局然後鐵道局你要把債務還清所以它有一個年限啦那本息為了"},{"start":10447.475,"end":10465.531,"text":"為了認為這個很慎重應該趕快來處理這個土地常在的事情所以本席把它放在法律裡面來處理那你們希望在辦法裡面來處理這個等一下主席在主持這個討論的時候我沒有堅持啦我只是強調不可以"},{"start":10466.684,"end":10493.311,"text":"沒有期限的一直下去那為什麼我擔心這個沒有不能沒有期限的一直下去這個要回過過來你看看台鐵台鐵公司你看這個大家都在講公司化本席也不反對公司化透過台鐵的公司化可不可以提升台鐵的績效讓永遠虧損的台鐵公司能夠步上軌道來賺錢至少不賺錢也不要每年虧損這麼多錢"},{"start":10496.089,"end":10507.378,"text":"那你看我們每一年的預估,你看我再把你們自己的預估表拿出來看你們的預估表當中,你看已經發生的啦你們預估113年要虧損74.9億,但實際上虧損多少?137.9億你不覺得這個預估差距有一點遠嗎?"},{"start":10520.823,"end":10537.886,"text":"主要是幫委員如果可以給我說明一下我當然要聽你說明因為公司化我們其實做支付金提撥23億當初也沒有在預算裡面被考量所以後來還有等一下那為什麼沒有被考量這件事情是突然之間發生沒有被考量進去"},{"start":10538.977,"end":10564.763,"text":"對就因為我們的預算都是113年預算在121年我們就提報112再送到院裡面所以在兩年前我們就在估的時候公司化的政策有配合有編列部分的一些費用預算費用但是大部分的費用沒有編列進去的所以也要特別說明一下那中間過程還碰到電價有兩次的調漲"},{"start":10565.743,"end":10591.464,"text":"那鐵路運輸業調漲幅度都很高又高達15%那再來就是我們的優退的一個機制措施也大概也投入了5到6億那所以電費然後薪資調漲所以這種種加起來事實上我們有如果同一個基準來計算的話事實上我們的虧損跟這個預算的預估的虧損是很接近的這個也跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":10592.265,"end":10617.066,"text":"對啦 總經理這個你講這些理由其實我不能說我反對啦但是如果我們以一個公司運營的角度啦一個公司我現在要編假設我要開產114的時候我就已經可以大約預估未來一年除非像黑天鵝啦就像今天川普這幾天川普關稅的事情對不對大家覺得他應該不會這麼狠結果他真的那麼狠"},{"start":10617.566,"end":10635.838,"text":"但他有沒有跡象 他還是有跡象嘛所以該避險的人 他在川普可能上他可能當選就是一個時機避險的時機再來第二個川普在談關稅的時候可能就是第二個時機因為他說我們在清明年假的時候他之前要宣布嘛所以有人這兩個他都避了"},{"start":10637.008,"end":10648.963,"text":"他就進行相關的避嫌所以你說他黑天鵝嘛是但也沒有到那麼黑啦這個天鵝也沒有那麼黑啦所以我的意思在講說一個公司啊虧損預估虧損74億實際上虧損137億"},{"start":10654.956,"end":10681.343,"text":"這個幅度說實在話有一點大有一點大所以電會不會上漲其實我們應該已經會知道因為電會不會上漲我們做政府自己都還不知道電會不會上漲我覺得這個說不大過去你完全腦袋裡面沒有這本來預估電會下跌的結果電竟然上漲我認為應該不會吧因為大家所有的企業都預估電會上漲"},{"start":10683.086,"end":10696.517,"text":"就像你要我預估明年我還是會告訴你電有可能會上漲啊因為這是我們可預期的就像川普的關稅也是一樣從他當選那一刻到他宣布4月2號宣布其實都是可預期的嘛"},{"start":10697.014,"end":10721.862,"text":"所以我的意思就是說台鐵預估這個數字都讓我感到害怕啦所以你常債基金我叫你三十年金創創的原因就是這個後輩都不遵守這個都不知道要說到什麼時候但我不堅持啦就你辦法上面有我覺得就表示一個態度啦態度先出來只是我很擔心那個態度跟實際執行的結果還是有相當的距離跟落差啦好那台鐵公司114年"},{"start":10723.763,"end":10726.846,"text":"從虧損實際上虧損137億我們預計你們的預算是要來預計虧損8.6億預估虧損86億這個差距怎麼弄這個怎麼樣變成137億要虧損86億你們怎麼算的"},{"start":10746.618,"end":10772.844,"text":"報告委員就是我們在首先是在收入面收入面我們有預計我們的營運本業會增加到7億元左右那我們的附屬事業包括便當文創商品還有這個IP的授權那也會增加到10億左右今年大概是8.6億所以我們有設定這樣的一個KPI就是營收的增加那還有就是剛才講的公司化"},{"start":10773.784,"end":10791.066,"text":"當初第一年有投入的一些支出有減少那接著再計算我們一個人事的成本那人事在支出的費用裡面三大項是主要的一個是用人費用一個是折舊費用這兩項事實上就佔了我們整個公司的支出的八成"},{"start":10791.727,"end":10812.419,"text":"那我們所以在114年碰到 營收我們一定會增加我們預估大概都會增加到10%到15%之間那但是資本的支出我們折舊因為這個新車投入了將近1000億開始就要分攤折舊費用所以折舊費用也會同步的增加20到30億所以"},{"start":10814.5,"end":10838.111,"text":"所以我們整體的努力相關的一些費用能夠節流那再開源那整體的這個營收可以相較113年可以減少大概約50億這個虧損以上報告總經理這樣啦因為時間真的是太短就我要認真的每一個項目來問你譬如說營業外收入為什麼"},{"start":10840.42,"end":10856.546,"text":"減少的砍了快一半這個我都很希望了解所以是不是總經理你把未來你們的預估的狀況讓我了解一下每一個每一個細項你們到底要增加要增減多少讓我了解一下那個主席時間是不是已經到了"},{"start":10862.515,"end":10890.596,"text":"另外那個站票跟坐票的問題我看消費者大家都很在意嘛到底我們的志強號哪一些是可站哪一些是不可站那為什麼站的人跟坐的人都在吵架都在吵架啦那到底為什麼 時間都沒時間 我很想了解這台鐵公司部跟旅客都會忘記每天都在上網 這個罵坐的人罵站的 站的人罵坐的"},{"start":10891.958,"end":10912.657,"text":"這個我們難道沒有想要解決嗎有有有有有有有那怎麼解決來告訴我一下好不好時間的關係我沒在跟你忙啦好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝抱歉今天兩個一萬回連席啦時間有比較長抱歉好那我們現在請徐副國委員"},{"start":10927.375,"end":10934.163,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們吳次長 請次長還有我們台鐵公司 方總經理還有董總經理 方總經理委員好"},{"start":10942.957,"end":10953.503,"text":"市長總經理我想我也是我們貴公司最忠實的客戶之一我也是常常搭火車去轉高鐵來台北開會剛剛我們陳宜昌委員提的問題我就是現場的目擊者"},{"start":10960.888,"end":10973.582,"text":"我們都在坐火車的時候都會宣導說這個自強號不能持電子票證的人不能上車但是我坐起來之後我發現站的人一大堆我們的列車長在那裡順便順氣 視若無睹"},{"start":10976.425,"end":11004.933,"text":"造成很多人的位置被坐了就要被撐起來發生很多的爭執這確實是有很多的案件發生那針對這個問題我們公司怎麼做處理請董事長回答我就簡單補充一下這部分當然之前有提到這個問題那現在我們現在政策是這樣子除了PP可以用電子票證其他大概目前都還沒有那電子票證本來是可以到70公里現在我們要一直把它縮短到50公里"},{"start":11006.018,"end":11020.777,"text":"就是你50公里以內也可以上去超過就不行這是為了讓這個剛剛講的有座位的人不要覺得那麼擁擠服務能夠提升但是我覺得在管制裡面出現了問題啊事實上沒有拿到這個"},{"start":11022.655,"end":11041.337,"text":"我們的那個資本票正常的人趕快坐上去啊所以剛講就是現在把它收到我發現說我們自強號的原本是有講說你用電子變成用一卡通的人是不能上去的喔但我們發現還是有很多人上車但是以我過去我曾經因為這樣被罰"},{"start":11042.87,"end":11055.523,"text":"喔 很多啦 我就是被罰因為我實在來不及 但是我做過一個就是對號 然後就我想包含剛剛蔡委員提這個問題一定就是都有很多的乘客發現這樣的狀況我們應該要嚴加一個做稽查這部分"},{"start":11060.267,"end":11086.366,"text":"好 那我想我們這個親民聯加也要特別感謝我們台鐵公司的同仁這個不辭心 能見受崗位這個完成這個疏運的任務但是包含我們現在代理董事長跟總經理我們還是要提出這個對台鐵這個近幾年 近一年來發生多起的事故的一個檢討那包含尤其現在從去年6月開始包含我們的花蓮 潮州的基地"},{"start":11087.206,"end":11113.566,"text":"還甚至我們基隆的七堵吊車站發生了至少超過大概六起以上的一個事故那顯見我們台鐵公司在這個安全管理設施維護跟風險管理的部分還是有一些的螺絲鬆了這我想當署定員很多人也在問這個問題那包含我們每次委員會我們很多委員都一直在要求這個我們要這個上緊螺絲這個強化管理的部分那"},{"start":11115.604,"end":11140.869,"text":"董事長跟總經理 到底我們針對這些事故我們怎麼做檢討 怎麼樣做防範有沒有一個SOP的一個因應對策是喔 我這個說明一下齁我們以這個剛講花蓮這個案子齁我用這個來做一個說明齁現在目前當然是大概鐵道局他在做調查那當然我們應援處台鐵公司應援處也在配合調查那我初步從那個現場去看起來是可能"},{"start":11142.523,"end":11169.24,"text":"跟那個木診會有點關係木診的部分那現在這木診我們有一個所謂的軌道安全提升計畫我們現在大概針對所有戰場的木診的部分我們都在全面來開始來做把它汰換掉改為PC診這部分我們大概會在116全部都可以完成因為他為什麼這麼慢主要是因為平常他必須要調度我們沒有辦法去停止只能在他收班以後操班去做這個事情"},{"start":11170.08,"end":11192.185,"text":"所以他時間比較久但是現在是全面性的針對木診的部分全部要給他抽換為PC診這樣現在因為我們每天這個台鐵的運量還是非常的大既然我們找到原因 知道原因我想還是要趕快來做處理要不然這個這麼多人這個生命採取的安全每天都在受到威脅所以我想這個"},{"start":11193.345,"end":11219.105,"text":"因為每次聽到我們這個檢討之後那個更換的時間都很久了這次才是聽到人家膽戰心驚啦能不能加快施程這部分能不能有一個比較具體的一個施程進度因為我跟文包主要是因為他抽換PC診抽換那個木診主要是因為必須一定要收班因為不然平常他在調度所以會影響到他施程比較沒辦法快我想這部分我們再努力看看啦好不好"},{"start":11219.605,"end":11244.975,"text":"好那另外我還是要替我們屏東鄉親來請命那之前我有請我們我們台里公司的同仁到我辦公室針對我們屏東縣一個運輸的問題來做討論那因為我們發現這過去上下班的時間事實上這個班次調度是沒有太大的問題但是因為有些區間跟區間塊的問題這個班次的調度出現很多的一個"},{"start":11246.235,"end":11267.385,"text":"異常造成我們這個上下班的同仁上下班的上班族還有通行的學生非常的不便那尤其我們很多這個我們屏東的公務人員他們早上要趕著到台北開會要趕九點的會他們必須五點多就要出門趕六點多的高鐵有時候坐不到就不會回來了"},{"start":11269.167,"end":11277.266,"text":"那依我們目前來看這個台鐵跟高鐵的這個班次的一個銜接上面還是有一些的落差這部分能不能來做檢討"},{"start":11279.315,"end":11294.922,"text":"銜接部分因為主要是這個我想我們可以來考慮看怎麼去把它更無縫接軌因為主要是路線的部分現在利用率已經到90.43%那中間車種太多了又要7000塊7000車號都要的列車"},{"start":11299.404,"end":11315.505,"text":"影響實在是真的是比較複雜一點這部分我們盡量來看可不可以先見密切見解當然我知道你們就是有這樣的考量又有快車慢車然後又有調度的問題但是依我們看上下班上下學尖峰這個密度的部分能不能做有效的一個調整"},{"start":11316.246,"end":11335.139,"text":"好 這個部分我想我們盡量能夠在十分鐘內就剛剛講轉證的時間 利用十分鐘內看可不可以來轉證 這我們來努力好 那另外除了班次調度 我想屏東目前面臨最大的問題就是我們這個屏東縣這個單軌的問題尤其我們目前潮州到南州 還有林邊到枋寮"},{"start":11336.34,"end":11356.355,"text":"各地單軌運行所以台鐵的同仁跟我講說他們不是不幫忙是因為會受到調度的問題那這個說這個我們就很怕啦屏東縣真的是到目前為止還竟然還有單軌的一個軌道沒辦法通行那我之前有請楊局長這邊來做說明一下局長這部分能不能什麼時候來做改善"},{"start":11359.761,"end":11373.581,"text":"報告委員 這個我們放在那個南回現行改善這個案子裡面在做處理現在可能性研究已經報到行政院在做最後的這個審查計劃那這部分還是要加快進度因為我們還是有很多的這個需求能夠希望這個強化這個大眾運輸的一個能力"},{"start":11376.405,"end":11401.863,"text":"那最後那個次郎我想當然你現在目前待遇啦那之前在杜董事長的任內我們有跟他談到所謂一個產學合作尤其我們現在我們屏東有操作基地那我們希望未來能夠結合我們在地的高中職甚至大學做一個產學合作幫我們屏東的孩子能夠在地升學在地就業也幫我們留住人才這部分能不能再強化一下"},{"start":11402.951,"end":11423.897,"text":"這應該可以啊 這沒問題這包委員我們有在進行持續在跟那另外一個這個我還是要幫我們這個台鐵上班的屏東子弟請命現在很多還在東部還在北部服務調不回來是因為我們的招考的部分一直不順利那我們之前幾位委員一直在提我們如果現行的招聘的"},{"start":11424.557,"end":11439.064,"text":"的條件跟薪資不提升的話我相信這救不了人啦那第二個很多很多現在結婚的也因為這樣的因素都選擇要離開台鐵我覺得這個是很悲哀的一件事情這能不能有效的一個做調整"},{"start":11440.029,"end":11464.93,"text":"這我跟委員報告,剛提到的薪資的部分,其實我們現在最近在根部那邊爭取幾個預算,就包括危險假期、偏遠地區假期還有一點費所以目前都已經報了布,那目前正在密切溝通,我們期盼應該會很快可以下來如果下來以後,大概最多可以多到八千塊左右"},{"start":11465.931,"end":11479.564,"text":"是啦 我們也希望台鐵是一個幸福的企業那能怎麼樣留住人才 留住這個讓我們鄉親能夠願意在這個台鐵公司繼續做長遠的服務應該要有對策 也要有一個好的方案是 這我們來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":11502.574,"end":11503.815,"text":"我們現在請吳思耀委員請次長局長馮總好"},{"start":11527.264,"end":11554.134,"text":"好大家早安那今天難得針對這個議案我可以把我長期對於鐵道文化保存文化就是前瞻的議題就教於次長還有呃局長跟總經理喔那步步都是文化部這個是在蔡英文總統上任之後我們接駐的最新的文化資產保存的方向也就是過去大家覺得保存文化文資在利用那都是文化部的事不"},{"start":11555.134,"end":11570.343,"text":"步步都是文化部那下一頁那先扣合著今天的主題喔呃作為氏族裁員來做長債基金其實是四個面向這個非常清楚我也是在整理這個質詢才發現哇你台鐵公司的話你的這個"},{"start":11571.664,"end":11583.975,"text":"管理的土地的比數2,004筆建物的比數136筆土地面積165萬平方公尺然後呢你承接的短期債務1,699億而且預計要30年來清償完畢這絕對是非常嚴峻的挑戰 夏業"},{"start":11591.141,"end":11601.93,"text":"所以我是對於今天的法案我支持幾位委員共同的方向排除國產法然後來適用文字法讓你們有比較大的彈性可以來做清償債務的作為下一頁"},{"start":11604.008,"end":11626.69,"text":"但是呢跟這個議題相關的就必須去討論到我們現在的國鐵公司條例修正案的第十條第二項裡頭呢你們因為不受國產法二十八條的限制未來的開發處分收益及其他相關事項交通部來定其實他新增的業務需求很多包括都更開發的活化"},{"start":11627.35,"end":11649.101,"text":"包括資產產權的處理也包括文化資產的協儲就是我本期非常在意的文化資產的協儲包括該保存的保存該修復的修復該活化再利用的活化再利用該公司協力的公司協力或者是中央地方要分工的都要中央地方去分工可是呢人力在哪裡"},{"start":11650.602,"end":11675.425,"text":"我以你們提供給立法院預算中心的報告裡頭有提到如果要滿足你們新增的這些業務至少要28位新增的人力而目前裡頭台鐵裡頭對於這28個人力的需求你們過去比較專善的也已經有的是專業土地開發的人才那對於文化資產的人才呢誰要回答"},{"start":11678.815,"end":11702.917,"text":"好 包委員這個28個人我先報告一下就目前我們爭取到9個員額是那9個裡頭都是土地專業開發人才嗎第二個有關文化資產回到剛剛前面就是委員提到的幾個面向比如說台北機場那台北機場現在就要作為所謂的鐵道博物館那這個博物館的經營其實是由文化部成立台北機場的這個鐵道博物館的籌備處正在進行當中"},{"start":11704.258,"end":11720.738,"text":"那是有文化部來幫忙是的也就是說未來有我今天不講台北機場就講你自己的你自己要做文化資產修復活化再利用的事實上這些作業就是文化部在做我們其實我們就是尊重文化部把所有的土地保留給台北機場來做使用"},{"start":11721.098,"end":11739.801,"text":"所以我不講台北機場好嗎我是說其他的部分以你好我剛剛講你有200多個土地2,004筆土地有136筆建物然後有好多好多你要管理的資產價值裡頭可能除了土地開發的人才你還會要有"},{"start":11741.042,"end":11766.823,"text":"必要的文資的人才嘛那28個人力需求你現在只討到9個好那另外的怎麼辦我先不要講文資了那其他怎麼辦其他我們再繼續爭取那跟委員報告就是說原來屬於我們處理的策略就是文資的部分就讓文資的專業機關來做處理我們的這個案子我們是把容積移轉出來我知道限定做保留好我來換下一個問法下一頁"},{"start":11768.533,"end":11790.675,"text":"我次長你看一看這是我剛擔任立委因為我長期待在文化部門我剛剛擔任立委就是2017整理的資料喔二級機關下轄的文化資產數各部會裡頭交通部是第一名你要管理的有137個以列的文資不管是古蹟歷史建築紀念建築等等而"},{"start":11792.825,"end":11809.857,"text":"潛力文資數還沒被指定但是他有潛力的交通部是所有部會的第四名另外有143處是潛力文資而交通部裡頭的三級機關以下就台鐵局是所有行政院三級機關要管理文化資產數最高的有84處"},{"start":11811.698,"end":11828.777,"text":"我要說這是2017年喔是我們文資法大修之前喔換言之現在因為我沒有再做新的一個調查可能你的文化資產署、潛力文資署包括台鐵的都是會增加很多的下頁所以說我其實是要肯定你們"},{"start":11829.878,"end":11853.096,"text":"市長你看齁其實在114年就是你們已經開始想到台鐵公司你們承擔的文化保存修復再利用的時代使命所以你們才會有多了編了1400萬的調研預算不是嗎對這1400萬是幹嘛你們還成立了文資科對我們成立文資科"},{"start":11853.396,"end":11880.222,"text":"對不對就是為了要讓鐵道文物保存活化能夠一個定期的platform有專業的人力有一個平台可以列管可以追蹤可以推展目前台鐵有99處是你們在這個計畫裡頭要去做調研的這就是我剛剛說的是對的方向只是你的人力不要一直跟我講台北機場台北機場是因為有文化部他要作為整個鐵道博物館"},{"start":11880.902,"end":11902.35,"text":"但是你作為交通部的鐵道局下面的台鐵管理的就這麼多你絕對需要跟上然後我很開心啊我去了解發現你們在組織面在預算面在計畫面都有進展啊只是人力面還要再加強對不對下一頁我要做一個提醒你看看同樣是國營企業台糖台電台水"},{"start":11907.628,"end":11926.92,"text":"也都因應了他們第一個文資法的修正需要去由管理機關或所有人來編列預算辦理保存修復管理維護等等這是公有文化資產新的文資法的修正所以呢經濟部向下的這些企業他們都看到他去管理去修繕的這個"},{"start":11928.661,"end":11955.64,"text":"文資的責任他另訂了一個文化資產類別的考試然後去聘任相關的人員這就是我剛剛一直在跟您討論的你剛剛28個你現在才補9個9個裡面可能都是土地開發或是都市計劃的人才你要不要學習一下經濟部的這些作為像台電這幾年對於他的文化資產做得非常好他從修復"},{"start":11956.781,"end":11980.655,"text":"活化再利用他還辦很多的展覽文化路徑的小旅行跟台灣的設計產業合作讓台灣的水利發電的很多的工業遺址也都成為跟觀光可以結合這都你高通部的事啊要不然你高通部裡面你台鐵也好你鐵道局也好沒人這樣在想借口事啊所以次郎你可以綜合回覆一下嗎你們怎麼來強化這個呢"},{"start":11982.686,"end":12001.407,"text":"我想剛講的比較多的文資大概集中在台鐵的部分台鐵部分剛講我們也編列預算那也成立一個文資科我想這部分大概會後續看人力部分再盡量再補強那至於剛講鐵道局28個人那個事情啊29個人28個人那個事情啊"},{"start":12002.428,"end":12027.786,"text":"9個人已經進來 這個我再請鐵道局再演繹一下是不是這裡面是不是要有幾個跟這個文資有關係專長的部分進來我再請他們再演繹一下謝謝次長 我要肯定你們台鐵已經有預算有專責文資科的組織 有相對應的計畫你們組成了鐵路文化保存及活用小組都很好 但是就差一個人力嘛"},{"start":12028.286,"end":12049.761,"text":"在下一頁所以我提供給你們經濟部下面針對文化資產的類別他擴大去招募了我認為這個有幫助我覺得台鐵是應當跟上應當學習的在下一頁另外一個除了你自己管理你自己修復就是擴大合作公司協力是一種模式跟地方政府的合作是一種模式"},{"start":12050.581,"end":12071.664,"text":"這是我們前幾天思瑤從議員到立委努力了十多年終於讓新北投火車站從彰化流浪到彰化我們把它遷回北投重組這是一個文化資產異地保存的一個美好的美麗的這個土地的鐵路的故事但是呢這是因為有鍥而不捨的北投的民間社團"},{"start":12072.325,"end":12094.762,"text":"文史工作者然後push台北市政府來做所以我們台鐵應當去爬梳你剛剛那個小組除了你自己管的資產之外其實可以擴大去盤點台灣的鐵道文化裡面哪些可以跟私部門合作哪些可以跟地方政府推他一把給予誘因就像我們新北投火車站前幾天109歲生日"},{"start":12096.403,"end":12122.87,"text":"我們也辦理了活動不管是這個歷史建築本身的活化修復再利用乃至於我們還謝謝台鐵幫我們找了一個藍寶寶當初在行走淡水淡北線的這個鐵路一起來加入我們這個雖然規模不大但在北投也有一個新北投火車站的鐵道的小小的園區這就是跟地方政府合作所以我今天提供了人力"},{"start":12124.053,"end":12124.153,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":12201.206,"end":12215.012,"text":"不好意思那個許志傑跟莊惠雄對調好我們現在請莊惠雄委員謝謝莊惠雄你請一下好不好不過沒問題我是很久來你們這裡質詢你們要不要表示熱烈歡迎熱烈歡迎請那個我們交通部次長請次長那個台鐵公司總經理也有來"},{"start":12230.472,"end":12233.116,"text":"反正你欠阿好 請放手"},{"start":12236.129,"end":12262.967,"text":"市長還有我們總經理本席在上個月在總諮詢的時候也向我們卓院長來提出來關心整個台鐵的一個票價調漲的一個問題那我們現在交通部你們現在是6月23號廣告調漲我想這個問題我必須要在這個地方來再一步來做一個追問就是說對於整個台東跟花蓮兩個縣市的民眾來看的話"},{"start":12267.609,"end":12287.315,"text":"往返的因為有TPAS所以你們這個影響可能也沒有那麼大但是長程的台北到台東或者說你高雄到台東這個影響就大了本席在總之選擇社也提過這個地方再說明就是說你台北到台東"},{"start":12289.332,"end":12300.035,"text":"那各種的一個票價平均你的漲幅差不多20%、20%你台東到高雄段 莒光區間 你這到35%35%那還有志強號將近50%到50%"},{"start":12308.237,"end":12329.906,"text":"那當時呢我記得你們的士凱部長來對本席回應就是說會找台鐵來做一個研議那是不是會有有這個會員或者優惠的方案來做一個折扣當時我就具體的去做一個要求啦不要說台東啦那應該針對整個台東地區的特殊的一個票價的一個方案那我請問啦一個月過去之後你們有什麼樣的針對這個議題去研議規劃會有怎麼樣的一個方向"},{"start":12337.974,"end":12358.221,"text":"我跟委員報告,針對這部分剛提到的,對花東算是路途比較長遠,除了剛講的低延低減的這樣一個制度以外,另外我們現在在考慮說,對花東的部分是不是有所謂的在離峰期間給他比較有優惠,這目前我們在研議。"},{"start":12359.241,"end":12387.068,"text":"我這幾天一直在想就是說我們東部整個跨區的交通的一個優惠方案你說花東地區因為你有TPAS的方案可以有效的支持在地的一個居民但對於跨區來講的話是不是有可能去考慮推出類似比如說回鄉票東部縣市往返的一個優惠票來減少花東居民到其他縣市票價這樣的一個負擔讓東部的民眾可以更輕鬆的去"},{"start":12388.248,"end":12411.546,"text":"跨區減少它的一個負擔這是第一個那第二個就是說你提高跨區的優惠的一個折扣的一個比率花東到台北台中高雄主要城市的一個票價的一個漲幅給這一些長途旅行的民眾有更多的一個折扣漲價帶來的全部都是壓力的那第三個就是說譬如說你週末"},{"start":12412.367,"end":12434.188,"text":"跟假日的一個通行的優惠的一個政策那比如說我們針對東部民眾週日或者假日的旅遊的一個需求你推出週末跟假日的一個通行優惠的一個這些票種那這個不僅可以促進整個國內的一個旅遊也可以幫助民眾在假期出行的時候減輕票價的一個壓力這個部分是不是"},{"start":12435.009,"end":12437.632,"text":"次長 剛才你們補充說還要討論呢我現在跟你們講這個已經夠具體了不曉得你們的考慮是怎麼樣"},{"start":12445.816,"end":12466.75,"text":"優惠的部分我剛看了幾個建議當然委員的建議都非常的具體而且非常的好不過可能還是考慮到所謂的整體的一個衡平原則這部分我想那我們再研議好不好剛提到我們當然會針對於發動的部分盡量想看看有沒有什麼方式可以去做出一些折扣出來"},{"start":12467.27,"end":12486.037,"text":"因為大家的衣衫就算公告,這個衝擊都是難免的反應成本這個都很合理啦,一般民眾其實也不會跟你說這個是太跳通但問題是,你看我剛提到的,不管到高雄,我賣50%的,他企業賣50%的,他很可怕的一個丈夫啊"},{"start":12489.418,"end":12502.124,"text":"也就是說過去當然就是為了減輕民眾的負擔你們把整個成本給吸收了那你現在就合理的反應票價沒有人會說這不對但問題是你這個條幅像比如說高雄到台東的到花東的或者說你從台北"},{"start":12509.948,"end":12529.979,"text":"北部到花東的這個漲幅確實是很大所以本席就非常具體的提出這三樣就是說你整個東部跨區的優惠的一個方案還有提高跨區的優惠折扣的一個比率跟週末跟假日通行的優惠的一個政策我相信這個方向來看的話是"},{"start":12530.879,"end":12542.219,"text":"交通部這個地方啊 你們擇無旁貸啊你不一定也跟我說會的 你們會討論的我覺得很顯然看起來你們現在還沒有針對這個部分有很具體的措施要出來你們現在只想說六月起什麼要調 要調但是這個"},{"start":12544.997,"end":12559.967,"text":"本來你部長是用折扣的方式來處理嘛對我們現在目前還是朝花東的部分用所謂折扣的方式彈性票價的方式來進行處理啦這個還是我們的方向要這樣去做啦那如果跟委員報告我們現在這個條長其實已經"},{"start":12562.689,"end":12582.766,"text":"歸於到社會的一個接受程度我們的客運的部分它的報酬率只有0.36%而已就是幾乎等於0也就是說沒賺錢啦我用多少我就收多少一般之前那個立法案給我們的公司它其實是合理報酬率3到5%"},{"start":12584.807,"end":12606.617,"text":"我們也沒用到3%我們連下限都沒有用到就是用幾乎用零的方式來做就是考慮到說不要一次漲幅不要那麼大這其實對我們的成本對台鐵公司現在成立公司他的壓力真的也是非常的大這個我當然都了解啦你像譬如說從我們那個佳東訪寮有時候我看你們的那個試驗列車"},{"start":12609.878,"end":12621.625,"text":"那一個車裡面如果坐了沒幾個人那車也一定會遼及啊但問題是整個鐵路的一個運輸啊因為我們要肩負社會責任這一定要啦那當然社會責任甚至於單剛起整條鐵路就不是說啊就遼及之後就可以像經營企業那樣修修的不可能啊那也有牽扯到國安的一個問題啊"},{"start":12631.07,"end":12654.383,"text":"那但是這個票價的一個調漲那這一次來看的話有一些區段對東部來講的話因為它的地形本來我們在建置整個鐵路啊你像比如說你說雙軌啊還有你蘭桂龜線那個部分啊怎麼樣去你們現在連那個方案連合訂都還沒合訂啊那長期以來對東部來講的話"},{"start":12656.984,"end":12679.39,"text":"交通上對他們來講的話就不太公平啦就不太公平啦所以你整個票價在調漲的時候也必須要有特殊的去做差別待遇是合理的啦如果說你在西部縣市你全部說哪一個縣市要求跟你說哪一個地方要折扣這又沒道理嘛你沒有理由去做差別待遇嘛但是你整個鐵路建設整個交通建設東部跟西部確實因為地形上"},{"start":12679.83,"end":12704.656,"text":"有存在那麼大的一個差異性你這個時候來做差別待遇反而你沒有去做才是不合理啊所以上次在總質詢因為部長也去講說希望用折扣的一個方式那我在此更今天更具體的提出這三樣的一個方式希望我們交通部這邊來進一步做一個思考我相信我們政策你勢必到最後也會往這方面去做思考啦因為你一個調整要到50%有時候真的是那些人動不動啦"},{"start":12707.797,"end":12726.958,"text":"而且你看牽扯到整個觀光,人一定要記錄嘛,你交通成本你也要檢查,大家一定覺得我負擔太大,那你到最後又要來救這個觀光,那你台鐵全部都是交通不可以帶,那這個部分應該是做整體的一個考量,也降低"},{"start":12728.059,"end":12743.571,"text":"這樣的一個調漲的這麼大的一個幅度對老百姓這樣的一個交通成本的一個負擔我認為是非常可行的啦這個趕快去做一個思考來做出對社會做一個回應好不好好市長謝謝 榮譽謝謝謝謝委員復軌不是復軌不是可以帶嗎 等一下先存"},{"start":12755.267,"end":12759.308,"text":"好,OK,好,這樣OK,好,那現在那個鄭天才委員,質詢。"},{"start":12791.848,"end":12817.404,"text":"請次長財政部國產署的國產署委員好好 次長好這個今天有這個國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例的修正條文那個我先請教這個財政部"},{"start":12820.57,"end":12845.864,"text":"財政部國財長署的陳組長 請教你線型的條文 你看一下這個線型的條文線型條文特別提到這個政府因移撥台灣鐵路管理局及所屬機構金管之氏族資產由交通部設立基金處理員機構寄存之短期債務"},{"start":12847.318,"end":12857.345,"text":"我要請教的是說以現行的條文這個部分這個原來因為台鐵原來所管理的"},{"start":12858.464,"end":12880.359,"text":"有一個是他們自己的財產他們架構進來的有的是原來是國有的土地有的是原來省有的土地由他們來管理的部分對於原來省有或是國有的土地由台鐵管理然後經過公司化之後有了這個條文"},{"start":12882.133,"end":12901.955,"text":"那如果政府行政機關需要蓋公共設施需要撥用的時候他還可以依撥用的程序嗎政府移到這個基金的財產的話如果要撥用的話就必須要用有償撥用的方式"},{"start":12902.708,"end":12925.321,"text":"好 這個部分所以是需要去檢討的因為這個本來就不是台鐵的財產所以這個部分作為一個國產署這個本來就是公務尤其是針對原住民而言很重要的就是會有本來符合原基法20條增化邊保留地的"},{"start":12926.321,"end":12952.442,"text":"這個部分希望能夠繼續來進行這個部分那我了解你的意思請回座好時間的關係這個行政院114年度的施政方針特別提到要優化環島鐵路網優化東部公路交通網這樣的一個議題這我上次也有提出來這個"},{"start":12956.343,"end":12962.746,"text":"台鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫總共這個計畫的經費是64.1億元這是因為因應0403震災台鐵北回線災禍搶修的復建那這個"},{"start":12980.083,"end":12992.62,"text":"已經送到交通部了這個你們送到行政院了嗎還沒有他這個是在應該是3月的時候送過來那現在交通部目前在審議審議沒問題我們盡快會往行政院來送"},{"start":12995.583,"end":13013.517,"text":"這個部分盡快,因為很急,院長也去過,部長也去了很多次,最起碼兩次以上所以這個部分趕快撐合,才能夠符合行政院的施政方針這是第一個"},{"start":13015.06,"end":13031.771,"text":"第二個 剛才謝謝這個莊惠雄委員一再的關心這個台鐵花東票價優惠不應該調漲這個部分我自己也質詢過這個但是很遺憾的在114年2月5號台鐵公告票價將調漲平均調伍約26.8%"},{"start":13043.87,"end":13072.051,"text":"當初是這樣那我跟趙樂熊一樣委員一樣花蓮台東要盡量最好不要調漲但是你們今天公告了是今天公告的嗎還是什麼時候公告的還沒有公告還沒有公告還沒有公告的話就務必要一定要讓台東花蓮台東花蓮"},{"start":13073.514,"end":13099.412,"text":"對台鐵過去的台鐵是賺錢的你們回去查一下台鐵過去因為在西部西部縣因為有高鐵的競爭各方面的競爭所以都虧錢的是靠過去是靠花蓮台東都是賺錢的所以要回饋到"},{"start":13100.983,"end":13106.19,"text":"現在不要去調帳如果按照你們這個就一個一個"},{"start":13107.917,"end":13119.367,"text":"像按照你們現在原來的這是原來的嘛希望不要照這個像台北到花蓮本來是440的自強號現在要變成583到台東要變成935自強號所以這個部分要請交通部這邊務必"},{"start":13133.139,"end":13156.949,"text":"如果你們已經送到行政院了嗎?已經核准了我剛問你,你說還沒有?我們還沒公告,但是行政院已經核准了今天的新聞有寫6月23啊對,那是要我們要實施那已經核定了,還有什麼方式?我跟委員報告,當然委員剛剛提到這個是應該這麼講,我們當時在擬定這個票價的時候"},{"start":13161.249,"end":13190.208,"text":"客運的部分過去立法院給我們的一個合理的報酬率是3%到5%我們現在因為考慮到這個社會各界的一些接受程度我們的報酬剩下0.36左右0.36%喔也就接近一個你是用全台灣來去算的啦對 全部去算你要聽進去我剛剛的建議就是說因為花蓮 台東過去都替台鐵賺錢"},{"start":13191.849,"end":13216.843,"text":"好不好這個還可以改啊因為你6月23號才要正式啊不像剛剛這樣的話就變成我又是虧本了啦不會不會不會因為我現在利潤是已經擔心了就是虧本還不是政府補貼還不是人們的負擔所以他不會補貼已經調完以後他不會補貼了這個部分好好地把它列入你們的一個執行好不好"},{"start":13235.3,"end":13244.503,"text":"來 接下來請許智傑委員諮詢謝謝主席 我們請次長跟馮總有請次長 董事長道維好次長好"},{"start":13259.984,"end":13276.553,"text":"這個杜董事長突然辭職我們也覺得有一點意外啦但是很多事情我想馮總經理應該還是一直都在嘛所以應該要多了解而且就是次長現在站待"},{"start":13278.433,"end":13305.252,"text":"其實台鐵真的我想一想事情真的很多啦公司化以後那舊有的成科新有的挑戰那不管是以前的事故虧損與否等等的這個要改革的東西太多那當然剛剛也很多人我也問到的就是有一些問題的包括這個"},{"start":13306.693,"end":13327.749,"text":"你們的那個燈光啦軌道啦等等的其實我以前也曾經問過軌檢車它的軌道檢查的問題啦就是日本也因為這個軌距的問題產生事故等等的這問題很多所以我是希望說既然已經公司化可能從頭到尾"},{"start":13329.98,"end":13339.869,"text":"每一個單位部門你們都要做一個徹底的檢討啦一件一件 因為這太多件說實話還是說不完"},{"start":13342.559,"end":13367.577,"text":"舊交通幫恐怕還有一些陳柯在裡面我們不敢說到底是哪個單位很明確但是隱約還是有一些影子沒有完全去除掉雖然主管全部都換了但是有一些小鬼難產的部分我是覺得你們應該徹底做一個新的風氣跟檢討"},{"start":13369.538,"end":13384.564,"text":"為了要怎麼樣帶台鐵走向公民政大然後營運能夠很好事故沒有發生等等的這樣一個康莊大道我想這個很辛苦"},{"start":13385.904,"end":13400.632,"text":"也不是那麼簡單但是需要用一個不一樣的心態重新去看待每一個部門跟單位這個是希望說語重心長是希望說次長代理董事長那馮總也一直都在"},{"start":13401.82,"end":13430.131,"text":"比如剛剛講有人問到說那個師友問到那個文化保存的事事實上我也質詢過很多次台鐵要轉型其實就是六都風法跟鐵道祕境各個不同的點它有它的祕境它有它的文資這個你們如果做一個思考那可能再加上附近的那個你們的宿舍改民宿等等的類似這一種不一樣的經營模態"},{"start":13431.371,"end":13451.352,"text":"我覺得其實它是很有機會的當然這也是浩大工程所有的暫停你要做一個縮刻要把它彙整變成一個好的店這個希望說我們的台鐵可以再多一點這方面的思考去把它彙整的更好"},{"start":13453.268,"end":13464.335,"text":"那第二個就是我們的那個之前杜董事長答應的我不知道馮總經理跟吳次長這邊是不是延續下去我們的那個百慕達三角洲跟那個台積電站"},{"start":13466.687,"end":13490.398,"text":"這之前都講過了 現在就是萬一你們當時有多人 我想問一下這是不是一樣跟委員報告 這部分我們還是目前還是這樣子那當然現在目前剛好市政府正在進行那個那個肯定性啦那這中間剛剛提到那個台積電站還是叫男子的營區站都沒有關係我們"},{"start":13494.36,"end":13517.475,"text":"當時在開會的時候有特別提醒高雄市政府就是說這兩個站你必須要考慮一下它的佔據因為如果太近的話對整個的營運是不好的第二個它一定要代幣的功能如果沒有代幣功能增設這個以後那我就更慘了我分析給你參考你們就評估一下嘛"},{"start":13518.596,"end":13533.284,"text":"今天如果是沒有的話就全部都是用那旁邊那個紅色的是捷運紅線嘛嗯是啊剛好在台鐵南直站跟台鐵新左營站都在那嘛對啊所以我出出一路都是要對這兩站的"},{"start":13535.365,"end":13548.218,"text":"很多人流嘛那當然就是說如果有這個男子園區站他的好處是這樣就是說他要紓解這個捷運的人流啦你包括對台南車頭對我們鳳山車頭對屏東車頭他就是坐台鐵的"},{"start":13554.226,"end":13569.681,"text":"他如果要去台積電上班剛好20多塊就好了不用再去那個兩個捷運站那邊打捷不然你再去新左營站或是去台鐵男子站可以玩捷運是不是那些都會打架"},{"start":13571.079,"end":13585.556,"text":"所以這個是一個蠻不錯的想法啦我是希望說最終來這一定是很多人在這裡所以這個我是大力的呼籲我們務必要完成啦希望說我們可以真的仔細去評估"},{"start":13587.438,"end":13604.533,"text":"我跟委員報告這部分我想我們會全力支持至於如果涉戰之後我還是希望未來不管是Telelogy在審核或是高雄市在提的時候那個代幣功能一定要放進去不然的話真的會運產那個代幣功能一定要放進去"},{"start":13605.033,"end":13631.831,"text":"專業的高威力 帶兵功能放進去以後就是它佔地要稍微寬一點 多些的古道所以我就說專業的交給你們我管的就是怎麼樣去紓解人潮怎麼樣是讓那個各地去上班方便這兩個是我們地方人民的需求嘛專業的就拜託你們多用一點心把它規劃應該的好 還有一項 不好意思 主席我再站一分鐘就好"},{"start":13632.771,"end":13637.299,"text":"那個空中奉承我們的吳董事長一直跟他答應說這個標籤就沒問題結果呢 又過流標"},{"start":13643.628,"end":13671.002,"text":"現在我們是重新上網2月7號我們就再重新公告啦是那大概6月26號會這個結旨收件啦我們期盤應該看是不是會這段時間4月1號結旨收件沒人遞件就是6票啊不是還沒到啊6月276月26好延到6月20對6月26才到件那結旨收件好那那個"},{"start":13672.605,"end":13693.644,"text":"這個應該是總經理了解比較多啦還有機會嗎應該有啦我們把那個履約年期也拉長然後固定權利金也下降然後稅賦也給他做優惠所以這次公開說明會蠻多廠商來參與我只有一個需求就是可以成功嘛"},{"start":13694.998,"end":13713.88,"text":"那至於說技術問題或者是說要怎麼樣跟你的潛在廠商在合理合法的原則下如何去鼓勵他們來來這邊把它招標完成將來可以正式營運這是我們鳳山人的期盼嘛所以應該沒問題"},{"start":13716.321,"end":13736.249,"text":"我們全力以赴啦因為已經三次私底下也都跟很多廠商有交換過意見因為前面一次兩次杜董都跟我說全力以赴第三次跟我說應該沒有問題了那我現在想說哇他突然走了那我想說這個重酌大任應該放在總經理身上應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":13738.671,"end":13742.819,"text":"我們會全力來達成我們越保守走越遠一定會走到"},{"start":13750.88,"end":13769.645,"text":"越保守走越遠但是不一定很保守就走不到啦所以還是有一些我覺得你多花一點心沒問題啦就是一定要去因為你那個就是條件問題嘛所以我就不相信辦不到這應該是辦得到的啦好不好把它完成啦好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":13770.325,"end":13772.587,"text":"好 謝謝許志傑委員我的月保守左葉園開創 月保守左葉園接下來請審發會委員質詢審發會委員 審發會MOD來 接下來何新淳委員"},{"start":13796.075,"end":13806.023,"text":"謝謝代理召委謝謝我們許智傑召委我們是不是請五次還有鐵道局楊局長請次長楊局長"},{"start":13810.322,"end":13833.242,"text":"我第一個當然要 你好 你好這個要關心台中啊所以楊局長一定知道我要問什麼這個我們台鐵這個台中鐵路高架化的最後一里路就是台鐵的大清到烏日段那我們上個會期也有到現場去考察過那請問一下現在進度如何 次長知道嗎還是局長回答"},{"start":13836.524,"end":13856.41,"text":"包委員因為市政府有把修正的報告送上來因為對於經費分攤的方式市政府始終有一些堅持希望能夠做所謂的專案協商現在我們相關的審議機關是認為說就只有一個版本來報行政院所以我們還在跟市政府在做溝通當中"},{"start":13857.669,"end":13885.301,"text":"局長我希望盡快啦齁這個溝通要有效率啦那至於呢台中市政府地方政府有他自己的意見我們也尊重那如果迫不得已必須要多案併成我也建議次長這個多案併成也是一個方式讓行政院來做政策決定因為我必須要說這個為什麼之所以重要台中鐵路高加化最後的這一段"},{"start":13886.201,"end":13896.849,"text":"沒有高價化他阻礙了地方的發展第二個我也必須再提醒高鐵周遭的一個交通問題是未來未來"},{"start":13898.086,"end":13923.901,"text":"可能會是最擁捨也是我們中央地方要共同去面對的一個問題那我為什麼一直希望這個可以趕快加速的核定是因為高鐵特區未來那個shopping mall在成立了之後他現在已經在塞車兩年後shopping mall最大的這個亞洲最大的shopping mall成立之後開幕之後一定會更加的讓我們的整個交通癱瘓"},{"start":13925.362,"end":13946.309,"text":"那如果在台中的這個大慶到烏日這一段的高架化可以趕快的核定趕快的來動工那會有助於高鐵周遭的一個交通的一個瓶頸可以有其他的替代方案跟分流的路段這個很重要所以你現在不做你越慢核定那"},{"start":13946.929,"end":13974.951,"text":"越會影響到未來高鐵周遭的一個交通的問題所以市長局長剛剛是說台中市政府有送上來那我們現在又退回去請他們再研議啦那我也希望盡速的是不是呢我們主動的去push台中市政府趕快再修正把方案送上來那如果我們需要行政院我也會去拜託左院長我們希望盡速的來做相關的決定好不好"},{"start":13975.391,"end":14001.933,"text":"這部分我們來努力那確實委員看到問題點剛聽到蝦皮莫確實是過去委員一直在關心這一塊真的是沒有錯等他開幕以後那邊可能是交通上會很大現在要趕快想對策啊因為你現在不想的話未來兩年我說的這個高價化我上次問過局長如果一旦拍板定案核定這個新工的對不起新建的時間要差不多要七八年"},{"start":14002.674,"end":14019.465,"text":"如果說我們現在沒有辦法去想到這個兩年後可能會碰到的大塞車這個又不定案又一直拖拖拖拖我相信這個整個對民眾的生活還有那附近的交通的一個擁捨程度甚至會直接影響到高鐵"},{"start":14020.7,"end":14043.73,"text":"我這個是我必須要提醒這個是中央地方大家一起要去努力面對跟解決的好不好拜託第二件事情同樣的也是要解決台中的交通楊局長上次有去參與考察就是台中捷運的藍線跟橘線會在台中現在的車站那邊會有一個交會的一個點那時候呢我們有考察了那一個"},{"start":14044.99,"end":14069.51,"text":"有建議一個新的方案就是希望能夠在這個轉弦的部分可以做一個好的一個討論跟方向那時候我記得楊局長也有提到還有當時候的部長有提到我們有成立一個台中市政府台鐵跟鐵道局三方的一個橫向的一個溝通小組那現在這個溝通的進度如何針對這個案子局長"},{"start":14072.899,"end":14089.739,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們在去年11月就邀了台中市政府交通局跟台鐵公司一起來討論那因為這個局限的部分呢原來是在比較上面O16那現在的方案應該就是會在靠近火車站跟南線的位置增加一個車站"},{"start":14090.64,"end":14114.847,"text":"就增加一站嘛對不對讓這個橘線跟藍線的轉乘的距離能夠縮短嘛這樣才能夠方便轉乘的這些乘客不管是交通的便利性或舒適性或者是我們未來有一些國際觀光客要來台中台中一定要建立一個友善的交通環境嘛那國外觀光客才會來嘛對不對是的"},{"start":14115.547,"end":14144.336,"text":"所以現在有確定了嗎現在這個施政部已經把它修正在報告裡面但是報告裡面是一個構想的概念就是他認為說細部的部分要等到中規才能夠做後續的處理可是原則上就是在他現在的規劃裡面已經有納進去我們當時候考察的建議了嘛對不對好那未來我希望能夠盡速的這個來做決定然後這個橫向的一個聯繫小組的會議也要持續的來進行最重要的是也要讓"},{"start":14145.396,"end":14155.514,"text":"台鐵知道為什麼呢因為呢如果我們要新設一站的話那可能要運用到的跟台鐵的車站周遭的整體開發是有關係的"},{"start":14158.902,"end":14177.633,"text":"這個我跟委員報告,這個上次委員提過這樣的問題,這部分我已經台鐵公司在我們今年的二月、一月還是二月的時候我們有招商那情況非常的好,就很熱烈,我們也特別講說這邊未來可能就是隧道會經過"},{"start":14178.393,"end":14192.921,"text":"但是那確確的位置還沒有還沒有定案因為他現在只是一個構想慢慢的會越來越明朗化我們未來會把這個放到我們的照片文件去跟城商講說會有這樣一個情況因為剛剛講這邊是增設一個其實對台鐵的開發我覺得是"},{"start":14200.086,"end":14217.845,"text":"是好的是有助力的是的是有利的是好的那對整體的周遭的不管是交通環境也好或者是友善環境也好或者是工商服務業的發展也好經濟的地方經濟的發展也好都是好事那對台鐵來講更是好事"},{"start":14218.625,"end":14234.148,"text":"對台鐵的台中車站的營運更是一大利多所以我建議一定要密切的地方政府台鐵跟鐵道局我們中央一定要密切的溝通合作好不好最後會議照委員的要求我們朝這方向來走好拜託是"},{"start":14234.949,"end":14257.348,"text":"拜託拜託最後今天我們在談的是文資我只有一個建議因為我們到目前為止看到台鐵的文資的建物的活化你們呢是給各個管理單位那我建議我們總公司這邊我們在上位應該針對台鐵的文資建物這些文資空間有一個整體的盤點跟思考方向"},{"start":14258.55,"end":14285.447,"text":"而且要納入專業的團隊進來就是專業的不管是在地的文史工作者也好或者是專業的文資的團隊也好或是文資的學者專家也好必須在我們台鐵的總公司裡面要有這樣子的一個專業的智囊團針對我們99處或者是越來越多的文資空間跟建築物的活化利用要有一個整體的策略思考跟方向"},{"start":14286.167,"end":14306.726,"text":"才不會現在是各個管理單位各行其事啊各行其事有的是委外有的是招標有的是怎樣那我覺得這個會讓我們地方也會擔心譬如說像豐原豐原我們上次去考察我們竟然在豐原車站的一個文資空間裡面現在被當作停車場使用"},{"start":14309.143,"end":14325.611,"text":"我覺得這是一個對我們來講是很不可思議的一件事情但是我可以理解我們這個管理單位是為了要活化所以他就只能想出這個活化的方式為什麼他沒有人幫他想其他的方式啊那在我們總公司這邊"},{"start":14327.453,"end":14348.746,"text":"總經理應該要納入相關的這樣子的一個專業的文資的學者專家也好或者是怎麼樣的一個團隊這個當然由你們自己去決定但是整體的一個考量跟整體的策略方向總公司這邊必須要有專業的人來幫助各個管理單位嘛好不好這是我的建議啦 次長你覺得"},{"start":14350.12,"end":14374.16,"text":"可以嗎我覺得很合理而且應該這樣做才對應該要這樣子做那你覺得需要多久的時間去把這個整個機制建立起來我現在跟委員報告他現在其實台鐵現在目前也有成立所謂的文字科文字科的部分當然他跟那個自然開發處兩個會去做結合那至於剛剛講的裡面可能也許現在的人力我覺得稍嫌不足這個人力啦我們再去 對"},{"start":14375.081,"end":14403.696,"text":"人力不足還有加上對於文資的概念跟運用活化的一個專業度還不夠是我們盡量引進一個外界的那樣的比較創意的進來這個我想我們會努力來做那你總共是有一個整體的一個策略方向給各個管理單位作為參考或是指引嘛不要讓他們現在個性歧視我再講一次我們的文資空間竟然活化成停車場這個我實在是大家都覺得"},{"start":14405.097,"end":14413.084,"text":"希望啦在他約到了之後我們可以用重新的思考方式來做文資的火化利用好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們請油耗委員"},{"start":14434.508,"end":14437.476,"text":"謝謝老闆主席有請次長請次長"},{"start":14446.895,"end":14468.808,"text":"委員好市長好那當然還是要肯定市長包括台鐵對南投都做很多的協助那在這裡還是想要先救救一下實事體那像現在來講我們看到股市綠油油今天大家一副就是都是因為受到這個貿易的影響還愁雲慘霧那本期在"},{"start":14469.788,"end":14491.024,"text":"禮拜六的時候也看這個行政院這塊的記者會那這個880億那出席的單位跟討論的單位沒有交通部但是其實在交通部底下相關所管的許多的影響的這些汽車零組件相關這些運輸產業不管是進口或出口其實都會大受影響"},{"start":14491.844,"end":14514.365,"text":"那我想就教一下市長那為什麼在行政院的881裡面他在討論的過程中沒有就是邀請到交通部那以及那這些相關的這些產業尤其是汽車產業或是交通部底下的相關的這些產業受到的衝擊以及包括協助的方案為何"},{"start":14515.282,"end":14538.622,"text":"我想跟委員報告這次剛講因為關稅的問題嘛主要大概是出口的部分出口的部分主要是在經濟部因為交通部裡面譬如說剛講汽車那部分其實是經濟部在主導的這我知道 是不屬於交通部這我知道 是這我知道所以因為關稅問題所以那天討論的時候大概就找經濟部沒有找交通部是因為這個原因"},{"start":14539.002,"end":14565.873,"text":"所以說交通部底下的相關的汽車或是相關的運輸的產業通通都不會受到這些貿易或關稅或進出口的影響因為剛剛講了他對外出口是由經濟部在幹我知道是經濟部為了但是問題是在討論跟邀集部會在跨部會討論的時候是通通都把交通部就沒有邀集來討論嗎還是有沒有任何一個單位就是或同仁是有參加行政院的一個會議應該有嗎"},{"start":14568.547,"end":14580.703,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個連假期間有關於行政院的會議我們是沒有參加剛剛委員所提到就是說裡面可能會聽得到如果說因而產生這個貿易這個有相關這個調整的部分的話"},{"start":14584.768,"end":14587.411,"text":"所以本席在這裡還是要建議行政院在討論這樣子的一個881的方案不能急就章"},{"start":14599.565,"end":14627.917,"text":"交通部的話貴為國家那麼重要的一個部會那在整個的方案的討論交通部沒有任何的同仁或是官員受邀參與討論那我坦白講當然說組的單位是經濟部這個大家都清楚那可是實際上影響的產業跟層面甚至包括後面帶動的整個包括物價膨脹通膨的問題所以說這個部分我會建議交通部應該還是要主動跟行政院反映那這個應該是要"},{"start":14629.238,"end":14644.156,"text":"相關這個貿易的關稅站的這一個部分如何來保護台灣的產業而且把傷害衝擊降到最低我覺得交通部應該也要有官員在裡面列席跟參與討論那同樣的我們看到了像現在來講6月23號台鐵的票價要漲"},{"start":14647.259,"end":14669.942,"text":"那同樣我們看到這個關稅的這個後面的效應通膨就是一定的啦那是不是有可能是在這個高鐵的部分那交通部也可以秉持著照顧民眾苦民所苦的情況還在他們在下一次高鐵的董事會會討論的時候也表達這個高鐵不要漲價的一個大家的意見"},{"start":14671.603,"end":14688.289,"text":"各位報告高鐵票價的部分目前我們是還沒有接受到說要漲價的這樣的一個請求未來如果他有提出來我想我們會站在剛提到也有包括一些社會責任的問題必須要去考量我想這部分應該"},{"start":14689.77,"end":14705.727,"text":"可以來反映嗎對 這個我們可以來想辦法來處理好 那因為時間有限那再來吉吉之縣原定在114年底南投縣的吉吉之縣預計要在115年的7月要完工通車那想要救救一下次長"},{"start":14706.488,"end":14729.821,"text":"那在過去來講有提到說在今年年底的話是可以趕工到今年年底的這個進度那是否可行本來到今年年底的趕工的部分還是可以好那謝謝那明年的七月我想這個我們也會掌握那希望是能夠在今年年底通車那因為那時候有提到這個那我想說再次做對我們今年年底是通車到積極"},{"start":14732.083,"end":14759.443,"text":"因為那時候原本有提到今年的年中有機會就是通車到幾級那年底的話有機會全線通車那我在想其實那時候是包括在之前三個月的時候討論到是確實有這個訊息所以還是想要拜託董事長這邊是不是可以加快的來去進行這個好這個我們來努力好那再接著的話就是文化資產的部分"},{"start":14760.043,"end":14781.373,"text":"那在目前在集集火車站有沒有機會放置這個老舊的火車頭那我在想其實在鐵道文化那在我們這個集集支線其實確實是需要很多的這個文化資產甚至是文化的故事還來帶動這個鐵道文化集集支線讓更多的民眾成為觀光誘因那在目前來講的話是"},{"start":14782.694,"end":14805.544,"text":"以這個養護的方式介於交通部日管處12輛各式的老車還放置在小學堂跟鐵道車程鐵道文化園區那目前來講是在這裡還是要請董事長讓我們來積極來發揚鐵道文化跟文化資產的這個帶動觀光效益的一個方式那這個12個火車頭將來也希望能夠再積極支線不管是龍泉"},{"start":14806.284,"end":14828.304,"text":"還集集包括水里車程甚至濁水的部分那與其在這邊放置來來代管那不如的話就讓他呈現還甚至有一些鐵道的故事館把老照片來取出來還到時候來去帶動觀光在這個通車之前那是否可行我想這個跟委員報告剛提到這些帶動觀光的用文化帶動我想這個也是我們"},{"start":14831.497,"end":14860.052,"text":"台鐵公司努力的目標啦剛提到如果說地方還有什麼哪個地方有需求的時候可以提出來我們再討論看看他的可行性我想我這個我們會全力來促成好那如果到時候請這個公司內部大家都研議一下再把這個規劃方案再跟本席是好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝游委員那接下來鍾嘉賓鍾嘉賓鍾嘉賓委員不在王美惠委員"},{"start":14867.461,"end":14871.063,"text":"主席南鄉鎮市市長請鎮市好鎮市好鎮市我利用這個時間跟你研討一個嘉義市火車站那個車頭的問題你對嘉義市的火車站你有印象嗎"},{"start":14895.349,"end":14902.293,"text":"我有印象有印象嗎?今天我們去本縣的辦公室說我們鐵路高架開車站要怎麼做可以如何好在這裡面我第一點就是要先給我們政治探討一下方便我們所有的開車的觀光客也好"},{"start":14920.262,"end":14926.907,"text":"我們去外鄉 前陣子回來 會怕你死死的坐著飛車回來 把日子也好 我覺得有在我們的飛車站有很多不方便的你知道我們台北現在大家都會坐高鐵的嘛因為高鐵的就是很方便嘛"},{"start":14943.078,"end":14962.433,"text":"在這兩邊的時候,我們如果說大人又沒方便我們台北都坐高鐵到泰坡,坐到VRT到嘉義或坐客輪車但是坐到VRT到嘉義的時候,有很多站的,很多站的可以停因為在嘉義火車站停的時候,一定要在澳車站"},{"start":14973.011,"end":14979.278,"text":"在澳車頭停的時候 你叫阿公阿嬤也好 觀光客也好有澳車頭要過來"},{"start":14984.11,"end":14994.857,"text":"我們的前瞻 我知道你們用心有做一個電腿有做一個電腿訓練 訓練當中 我覺得很不方便的就是你有後車頭坐起來 你會找那個電腿嘛"},{"start":15003.022,"end":15014.308,"text":"電腿車要回去的時候,還要一直走,走到我們城鎮再坐電腿坐下去但是坐下去,我今天是要跟你說坐下去的時候,我們應該給坐車的人方便應該我們是可以坐下去之後,可以出站"},{"start":15026.328,"end":15049.546,"text":"但是我們的幾位是坐下去之後還要走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走"},{"start":15050.97,"end":15061.314,"text":"真是 我這樣說你有沒有聽到我這個形容這個問題我只要說你車尾踢到後座 要去那裡請站很不方便的嘛 對不對不是你走過來 你要走來請站請站的電梯走下來的時候一般是走下來 我們就可以出站了嘛但是他不行他你坐下來 你要走還要走 走 走 走還要走"},{"start":15081.553,"end":15095.111,"text":"一大早才可以出站本身是要跟你說 我們可以在電腿的旁邊設一個出站因為你設一個出站 跟他的卡兩次而已嘛"},{"start":15096.175,"end":15102.724,"text":"我沒有要求說你設在那裡讓人進站的時候可能會造成你們的不便嘛要不然要出站就是他卡住了他又可以出去啦所以我認為說"},{"start":15112.057,"end":15115.559,"text":"在這段時間有很多鄉親去我們服務處聽證我把這個地方找去看,真的有這個需要我要拜託政府,我們家裡的體育高架,漸漸一直完成"},{"start":15131.71,"end":15137.232,"text":"在這個過程當中,我們會說一百十五年的集體會,就可以來完成那一選我也希望政治所謂的單位,要多多關心嘉義市未來的發展,不能再拖延,因為嘉義市的鐵路高架,包括現在做得好"},{"start":15154.497,"end":15158.644,"text":"都會整個應用到白社會生活的環境因為這裡面有共和國也好很多我們未來"},{"start":15166.977,"end":15174.782,"text":"我們像家用路橋也要拆掉因為如果萬一未來要拆掉營用的時程也很大發展也很大所以真是我們在這裡提供的就是第一點我們要趕緊去看家裡的廢車道要有備性的方便因為我覺得我們這個鐵路的加高鐵的已經差一十多大十了"},{"start":15197.357,"end":15204.625,"text":"所以我們一定要平民 服務要好啦不然要怎麼跟人家怎麼檢視好不好 以上好 謝謝 謝謝議員"},{"start":15215.339,"end":15229.006,"text":"好 謝謝我們請黃婕 黃婕 黃婕委員不在高金樹梅 高金樹梅 高金樹梅委員不在陳雪生 陳雪生 陳雪生委員不在張祺凱 張祺凱 張祺凱委員不在葉源芝委員"},{"start":15246.454,"end":15249.317,"text":"那剛剛講那個政策還有鐵道局 謝謝請次長 當局長謝謝"},{"start":15257.582,"end":15280.439,"text":"市長好 局長好我想關心一下我們那個太阪輕軌的進度啦因為我記得我去年九月當時那個陳思凱部長剛到院的時候我有拜託他就是說我們這個可行性研究已經拖了大概兩年快兩年那時候快兩年啦現在已經兩年多了一直都沒有核定但這個太阪輕軌實際上是交通部前部長王國才的承諾"},{"start":15281.38,"end":15310.68,"text":"那時候到我們板橋的另外一區配合張宏祿委員說要蓋一個社後支線那太阪輕軌是主線嘛社後輕軌是支線嘛應該是先有主線才有支線嘛結果現在可行性研究一直卡住那時候陳志凱部長有承諾啦就說盡快盡量不要發現一個問題退一次發現一個問題退一次那我非常感謝他因為後來好像新北市政府在10月底有正式發文的時候就沒有退了但是"},{"start":15311.6,"end":15338.697,"text":"一直要求補件那補件我覺得也是應該啦補充資料是應該可是補件人家送件之後的這個回函特別慢我就講最新一次最新一次那時候有要求市府補充一個捷運開發大樓出售前要提供捷運公司附屬的事業法源依據跟案例那他們是在就我了解是在2月26號補充資料那到現在大概也一個多月了啦也都沒有回文"},{"start":15339.477,"end":15362.276,"text":"我是問說能不能在這個行政程序上可以加快一點因為我看起來這不是很困難的回應那甚至於說也不用文來文往嘛如果真的對於有一些細節有一些疑慮的話大家找過來開個會當面討論一下溝通溝通其實也很快啊因為我做立委以來我也協調過很多不同的部會之間你們中央的部會來我們辦公室協調"},{"start":15363.197,"end":15376.733,"text":"就感覺上好像都很不熟但是大家面對面討論完之後速度就加快很多所以這部分局長 次長能不能幫忙一下因為這個交通建設也算我們地方的一個因應期盼的一個建設"},{"start":15379.781,"end":15406.429,"text":"可以嗎報告委員這個案子因為之前委員有諮詢過我自己本人召開過會議跟新北市政府捷運局來做溝通跟協調他們也確實把報告有再送上來但這裡面有一個非常關鍵的問題也就是所謂的金融比的問題就是他們把未來的土地開發的這種收益納為未來的附屬事業收益"},{"start":15407.631,"end":15415.127,"text":"對一般來講我們是土開效益是列為自償性經費不能夠列為未來營運期的一部分營運收入"},{"start":15417.811,"end":15438.525,"text":"這個細節我覺得你可以該怎麼樣你可以找他們來再討論嘛因為現在就是五件之後沒有回應嘛我們最新有很快的照片他們的這個如果需要的話我們也可以來幫忙協調啦好不好盡快啦不要卡在你們該做的事情還是要做但是不要卡在行政流程"},{"start":15439.025,"end":15467.583,"text":"比如說公文在誰的桌上等半天安排會議為了要借會議室還是配合哪個長官時間就拖一兩個月我覺得盡量不要因為行政程序卡好不好加快速度好第二個請教一個我問一個到案的問題居然可以回座沒關係問一下到案的問題今天早上有一個有一個男子開車撞到一對夫妻那夫妻受傷那男子呢他自己承諾是他自己講說他酒駕然後就照逃了"},{"start":15468.283,"end":15490.912,"text":"那這個我想請教一下因為之前交通部曾經針對這個議題就是酒駕兆頭假設有受傷的一回事但是如果沒有受傷的話那酒駕兆頭他可能隔了一天兩天被抓到但是那時候他已經沒有酒精了嘛所以他可能就只能夠罰他大概幾千塊"},{"start":15491.952,"end":15513.08,"text":"那比一些酒駕的人留下來乖乖的接受酒測然後被罰是輕很多所以當時就很多團體專家就說那這樣是不是鼓勵大家酒駕要照逃那我有看說交通部好像有說要研議這方面的修法的方向我不知道說你們研議的結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":15515.482,"end":15527.253,"text":"你可以看這個PET他講說如果你配合警方9冊的話那最高是12萬罰款再加上刑責但如果說你是肇事逃逸的話大概就最高就罰3000塊那時候交通部有說會研議修法"},{"start":15532.537,"end":15560.032,"text":"這裡面就是說針對肇事逃逸因為肇事的部分基本上有財損或者是這個肇事致人輕傷重傷死亡這些相關的部分他裡面的太陽是相對我知道這就是你們之前講的嘛對對對但是就是說是不是就是說每個這個就是說肇事逃逸的一個這一個部分就是為了這個躲避你剛剛有講這個就是去年你們的理由就是這樣"},{"start":15560.692,"end":15575.06,"text":"就是說因為造陶不見得是酒駕造陶啦那可能別的原因嘛所以所以一致性的提高造陶的罰則不公平嘛對不對所以然後你們就說但是你們會思考一下怎麼修法去杜絕我剛剛講的狀況嘛"},{"start":15576.661,"end":15596.802,"text":"那我現在只是問說那你們現在因為是去年11月到現在也半年了然後剛好因為今天早上也發生就是有酒駕照討的事情所以我來請問一下交通部現在你們現在的進度是怎麼樣所以不用再解釋你的理由我都知道對不對跟我們報告就是說目前我們還是著重在酒駕房子的部分啦"},{"start":15599.585,"end":15616.082,"text":"目前我們還是這個相關房子的部分是在針對這個酒駕的部分而不是就是說在處理通案那要怎麼去解決如果你酒駕選擇肇事逃逸的問題呢有選擇肇事逃逸比配合警方酒駕罰的輕怎麼去解決這個問題"},{"start":15620.147,"end":15643.323,"text":"我想只要有肇事的這一個部分的話那這個基本上現行大概都有這個每輛車子都有這個行車記錄器的部分那在這個整個事故處理的一個部分的話我們也加上這個就是宣導如果說相關有肇討的部分的話那周邊的人或是這個當事人就趕快這個報案那我們也請這個就是說警政署"},{"start":15643.723,"end":15667.093,"text":"對於這種兆頭然後再處理這個船案的一個部分的話來做一個加速這個處理但是我要跟委員報告的一個這個部分就是說委員在這個之後最近這個媒體上面大概也看到很多這個就是酒駕開車有這些相關部分那警察大概就會加強這個盤查其實這幾天"},{"start":15669.674,"end":15691.799,"text":"大概也抓在這個盤查過程當中也抓到很多這個酒駕沒有你跟我講的是不同的事情警方很認真在查酒駕這我也知道然後你們加強宣導我也都知道我現在問的問題是你要怎麼去解決如果是酒駕然後因為選擇兆頭會比他乖乖接受酒測罰得比較輕這個問題我的問題"},{"start":15694.059,"end":15708.687,"text":"其實很清楚而且這個問題你也知道所以在去年的時候你們也有對社會大眾也有所回應那個時候是說會研擬方案現在只是問你的方案但現在聽起來是沒有什麼方案你們只會寄過由這個過去在"},{"start":15711.949,"end":15726.979,"text":"的相關的防治的做法嗎一樣嘛對不對對好OK沒有我是問個態度而已啦好謝謝我也跟委員長分享一句因為這裡面還介紹到這個刑事法律的部分這個我們再跟法務部跟警政署再共同來做一個研究OK好謝謝好好謝謝委員"},{"start":15741.678,"end":15744.042,"text":"徐新寅徐新寅徐新寅委員不在"},{"start":15754.844,"end":15777.789,"text":"登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定報告及詢討完畢委員黃建豪 沈發慧 李坤澤 汪曉林所提書面諮詢列入紀錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部及台鐵公司盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":15779.55,"end":15784.853,"text":"等一下我們休息五分鐘後就是再審查條文現在休息"},{"start":16069.164,"end":16072.087,"text":"我們現在處理國營台灣鐵路國運有限公司設置條例第10條及第23條條文修正案的審查"},{"start":16092.386,"end":16103.774,"text":"進行協商同時請議事人員宣讀各提案條文對照表如有修正動議或附帶決議一併宣讀該基金存取時間以30年為限以交通部鐵道局為管理機關增訂第二項天堂基金"},{"start":16123.065,"end":16137.905,"text":"處理法條部分第10條如果有修正動議並同處理請交通部台鐵公司說明請那個先委員李昆哲委員"},{"start":16140.086,"end":16163.317,"text":"今天討論的是台鐵公司條例的第10條還有第23條其實我看各版本的重點其實都差不多主要還是在明訂台鐵的債務基金的資產開發處分不受國產法第28條的限制另外就是資產中有關古蹟歷史建築"},{"start":16164.955,"end":16186.46,"text":"這些等德醫文資法第41條辦理容積轉移等等那這個部分我所了解這些資產如果留在台鐵公司其實他原本就是不受國產法28的限制也是用文資法第41條那現在是因為這些資產要"},{"start":16189.501,"end":16204.479,"text":"轉到台鐵的債務基金所以受到限制所以才有相關的提案這部分要請交通部來做說明其實我認為說如果是比照原本資產在台鐵公司的狀況"},{"start":16206.041,"end":16219.277,"text":"我是認為沒有太大的爭議他只是把他轉到這個台鐵的債務基金那但是涉及國家資產還有文資法交通部應該有責任必須要明確的說明來以上"},{"start":16222.198,"end":16246.877,"text":"好 謝謝委員的這個提問我想那個我們常債基金所接收的四大資產其中有三塊都有被指定為所謂的古蹟或是歷史建物那這部分我們會充分尊重文資法相關的這些保存跟未來的這些維護跟使用但是有關這些土地的這個所謂的容積價值"},{"start":16248.579,"end":16262.057,"text":"因為過去在文治法裡面它是如果是私有土地的話可以做容積移轉當然如果是政府所持有的這些土地的話是不需要做容積移轉的所以我們這一次的這個法案我想"},{"start":16264.099,"end":16281.457,"text":"建議第一個也就是償債基金的土地必須要不受國有財產法第28條的這樣的一個限制否則的話按照我們現在的估計四大資產如果只能夠做所謂的出租使用的話30年期間大概只能夠收益288億"},{"start":16283.418,"end":16307.245,"text":"跟我們所承接的將近1700億的債務有1470多億的這樣的一個缺口那會導致政府的利息負擔還有未來的這個債務其實會滾雪球它會變成是一個沒有辦法處理的狀況所以我們會非常感謝相關委員的提案那我們也建議就照這兩個提案的精神來做一個通過好 其他委員有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":16313.66,"end":16326.629,"text":"好那都沒有意見的話那我們就照修正到修正交通部修正條文通過好再來第23條交通部說明"},{"start":16341.937,"end":16368.954,"text":"我想第23條是一個修正生肖日的這樣的一個條例那我們是不是建議按照江部的條例就是一般的法規的使用方法那本條例修正條文是公佈日施行OK那照委員徐富奎徐富奎等17人林立錦等27人楊瓊英等21人提案通過好那大家還有沒有什麼意見沒有好那我們就修正通過"},{"start":16370.933,"end":16395.603,"text":"好 再來 加好 協商完成做以下宣告今日協商結論免以宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄加好 針對今日的會議做以下決議第一 並按審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論"},{"start":16399.282,"end":16418.8,"text":"不須交由黨團協商 院會討論時由許召集委員智傑做補充說明另請交通部就本日審查結果補充立法說明以提供本委員會及相關院提供本委員會做審查報告"},{"start":16419.892,"end":16441.66,"text":"好第二條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員整理第三如本次聯席會議為本會期最後一次議事錄授權主席核定後確定好本次會議結束散會謝謝大家"},{"start":16448.055,"end":16450.338,"text":"生死存亡的關鍵"}]}},{"id":"16566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16566","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea391d75eca066790eef3840653eac67e36e2c503bbdfdf4b6c55127d7a1a419525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、交通部就「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次議案係114年度內政部國土管理署及所屬「生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫(市區道路)」業務費預算解凍條件之檢討改善專案報告】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-07T08:30:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-07T12:30:00+08:00","duration":14368,"影片長度":"03:59:28","委員發言時間":"08:30:32 - 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bwd6"},{"start":1410.994,"end":1411.316,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":2142.196,"end":2150.484,"text":"大家早安,請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員14人,已足法定人數好,我們現在開會進行報告事項,請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":2154.062,"end":2181.66,"text":"立法院第十一届第三会期内政委员会第七次全体委员会议议事录时间一百十四年三月三十一日星期一上午九时一分至十二时四十分地点红龙二零二会议室出席委员麦玉珍委员等十四人列席委员黄建豪委员等九人列席官员内政部部长刘师芳及相关人员住民组委员会副主任委员钟兴华及相关人员海洋委员会人事处副处长郑中坚及相关人员客家委员会综合规划处处长陈瑞荣劳动部常务次长陈明�"},{"start":2184.462,"end":2210.057,"text":"主席牛召集委员许婷报告事项宣读上次会议议事录决定确定讨论事项继续审查今年日及节日实施条例草案即25案决议一委员牛许婷等22人所提第3条第4条第5条第6条第7条第13条条文相关委员提案内容委员牛许婷等50人委员麦英珍等5人所提修正动议之相关条文及委员会初步审查修正条文均已并保留"},{"start":2210.937,"end":2227.732,"text":"2.第一条修正通过条文修正如下第一条为彰显纪念日及节日之特殊意义并规定放假日期及举行纪念庆祝或纪念活动以纪念国家发展历史传承各族群传统民俗及促进多元文化发展特制定本条例纪念日及节日之时是依本条例之规定"},{"start":2229.341,"end":2244.906,"text":"三审查通过这条文条次引述条文文字及相关法制用语授权主席及议事人员整理四并案审查完据拟据审查报告提报院会讨论需交由党团协商并推进刘钊锦委员许婷于院会讨论时作补充说明其他事项二案一"},{"start":2245.566,"end":2264.709,"text":"应纪念日及节日实施条例草案仍有多条文未能达成共识原建请本会应令定期继续审议以求完备不应尽送委员会协商本案才举手表决方式表决结果在场委员13人不喊主席赞成者6人反对者7人赞成者少数本案不通过提案人委员王波义等6人"},{"start":2265.593,"end":2291.605,"text":"委員李博義等6人 而針對本次會議決議在場委員表示異議才舉手表決方式表決結果 在場委員13人不含主席 贊成者7人 反對者6人贊成者多數本案照主席宣告之會議決議通過 宣讀完畢好 請問各位委員 上次會議議事錄有無錯誤會議囉沒有好 那我們議事錄確定 謝謝大家那我們今天繼續進行本日議程的報告事項 請宣讀"},{"start":2302.031,"end":2317.414,"text":"邀請內政部部長交通部就市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討進行專題報告並被質詢本次議案系114年度內政部國土管理署及所屬生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫市區道路業務費預算解凍條件之檢討改善專案報告宣讀完畢好那我們現在介紹在場委員跟列席的官員首先是張志倫委員賴玉珍委員"},{"start":2332.712,"end":2356.501,"text":"吳慶民委員 吳慶民 不好意思 張宏祿 趙偉 王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員 黃潔委員 還有李柏毅委員好 官員的部分 我們內政部 劉世芳部長國土署 吳興修署長 還有我們交通部 公路局的林聰立副局長"},{"start":2359.858,"end":2372.96,"text":"好 接下來我們請內政部的劉思芳部長針對今天的專案報告主席請張宏祿召委好 請張宏祿召委程序發言"},{"start":2379.58,"end":2400.871,"text":"沒有我想請教趙偉或跟竹密這個以我們議事規則來講的話我們今天如果要審這個預算解凍這樣子是可以審嗎你可以請竹密說明一下嗎好我們請議事人員做一下補充說明"},{"start":2403.314,"end":2425.672,"text":"跟委員會報告 依各委員會組織法第四條之一各委員會的議程應由輪值召集委員決定之不是不是 我說今天就我們立法院的議事規則來講我院會也還沒有交下解凍案的預算案任何的那個那我們今天可以審解凍嗎"},{"start":2427.814,"end":2454.42,"text":"報告召委今天其實就今天的程序來講今天就算是專案報告事實上他也不能做解凍與否的決定所以我們今天只是專案報告那下次如果要遇到這個我們不用再一次專案報告解凍案還是要等院會交下來才可以處理吧是不是好謝謝請李博議員程序發言"},{"start":2462.559,"end":2475.63,"text":"謝謝竹密我沒有聽得很清楚你說今天我們做這個不算是解凍的專案報告但是不算解凍案在真正的我們這個預算來講它不是解凍案對不對"},{"start":2477.205,"end":2499.928,"text":"解凍要怎麼樣?祖民你說明一下報告委員會,立法院的解凍還是要行政機關把它相關的你講立法院的部分?對,它還是要從院會交付才能做解凍程序的準與否"},{"start":2500.608,"end":2518.124,"text":"對,所以我們院會目前沒有辦法交付的原因其實我們也講得很清楚院會目前沒有辦法交付的原因是行政院針對被統三的這些預算還沒有辦法真正算出來怎麼樣送到立法院,立法院怎麼樣來進行解凍"},{"start":2519.785,"end":2535.406,"text":"所以造成包含行政院包含各地方政府他目前才化法已經實施目前所有的預算真的沒有辦法做一個完整的整理進入到立法院來這才是真正的原因"},{"start":2536.067,"end":2549.748,"text":"那我也很樂意來討論這個專案但是這個專案的背後他會有中央政府跟行政院跟地方政府的這些分配比例的問題這部分我們等一下會議進行之後再來做檢討 謝謝"},{"start":2552.439,"end":2574.956,"text":"謝謝李博議員,我說明一下這我們跟議事人員有做過確認就是說在解凍案還沒有交付進來的情況之下能不能先排專案報告,那這個結論當然是可以的這個目的是我們今天先進行專案報告,未來解凍案的程序是這樣行政院提出來之後交到立法院大院,大院附委之後進到內政委員會來審查這我想是大家都清楚的事情"},{"start":2575.396,"end":2589.467,"text":"但是中間如果有專案報告作為前提的話你萬一後面一次送進來很多其實會造成大家排案的困難所以我們在前面的時候我們先把幾個跟比較重大民生建設相關的一些解凍案的專案報告我們先把它走完那未來這個我想"},{"start":2590.788,"end":2617.364,"text":"在不耽誤建設的一個情況之下行政院未來在交付的時候我們在處理解凍的時候可以比較快這我也相信今天在尋答的過程中如果當初提案的委員或者是關心的委員可以充分的尋答其實都有助於預算的解凍所以我想今天排案的狀況應該是沒有問題的那就希望大家有把握今天的機會趕快來針對生活圈的道路的部分來進行充分的政策對話跟討論好 那麼還有各位委員還有要程序發言嗎"},{"start":2618.991,"end":2621.214,"text":"好那我們就往下走囉謝謝請內政部劉思芳部長針對今天的主題進行報告謝謝"},{"start":2629.484,"end":2635.189,"text":"本次委員會召開的會議是討論內政部有關於道路建設相關的議題它的背景說明跟大家做一下簡單的報告有三個第一個生活圈道路交通系統的建設計畫系辦理市區道路新闢跟拓寬工程"},{"start":2649.181,"end":2665.418,"text":"第二提升道路品質計劃細微針對既有道路進行改善第三永續提升行人安全計劃及辦理人行環境建置及義照式路口的改善現在的辦理情形如下一生活圈道路交通系統建設計劃"},{"start":2666.539,"end":2673.422,"text":"自111年迄今已經核定244件道路工程歷年達成率高達98%以上114年度的預算總共編列72.99億元預計辦理的92項工程達成率預估大約是95"},{"start":2687.529,"end":2712.569,"text":"2.提升道路品质计划从106年9月执行至今主要效益已经完成无障碍人行环境改善660公里改善道路品质长度有959公里3.永续提升人行安全计划截至114年3月底已经核定457案执行内容包括人行环境改善及799处行人依照市入口改善"},{"start":2713.169,"end":2739.121,"text":"其中一兆市入口屬內政部夜館一共有601處部分截至114年3月底已經完成595處完工率高達99%第三有關辦理成果的部分一生活圈道路透過完善的道路網絡改善瓶頸入口與打通節點提升通行效率減少擁塞堵塞促進都市交通順暢流動"},{"start":2740.382,"end":2757.37,"text":"第二永續行人以行人安全為核心透過道路漸減調查增設人行道庇護島與無障礙設施提升長者與行動不變者的通行便利性並且建置友善步行區改善社區生活品質第三道路品質透過"},{"start":2757.95,"end":2775.158,"text":"互面平坦度的检测优化沥青工法等技术提升路面平整度与安全性透过道路断面检讨调整路形及改善人行环境并且推动绿化与管线地下化减少开花提升城市景观与环境品质"},{"start":2775.798,"end":2801.087,"text":"第四在執行檢討的部分內政部包含國土管理署為了促進計劃能夠執行更加完善就相關事項檢討說明如下一零星個案因為有民意整合的問題用地的問題還有配合周邊計劃整併等特殊因素調整原來提報的效益第二部分縣市政府由於道路基礎的建設不足連帶考核成績不佳"},{"start":2801.667,"end":2822.133,"text":"如果因此降低中央補助的資源恐難有足夠經費加以改善故透過本計劃改善基礎建設第三將請地方政府於案件設計階段邀請交通工程專業相關專家學者與會以提升案件的品質第四有關補助計劃辦理基本設計審議給予意見以及決議"},{"start":2825.646,"end":2847.403,"text":"以及決議供執行單位精進設計成果部分內容則賦予執行單位依據不同環境習慣特性民意等調整內容五結語的部分內政部將持續推動人本環境提供適當補助協助地方政府共同改善全國道路品質也透過內政部道路建設相關的計畫"},{"start":2848.664,"end":2874.467,"text":"即使財政較弱的縣市亦可以透過提案來申請補助逐步改善道路基礎建設另外同時推動強化入口安全設計的新思維降低入口肇事機率以擺脫人行地域的包袱以上簡要的報告請召委及各委員參考謝謝好謝謝謝謝部長的報告那其他的部分我們就參閱書面好不好那我們現在進行"},{"start":2876.058,"end":2877.019,"text":"詢問各位同仁有沒有意見"},{"start":2901.817,"end":2908.139,"text":"沒有 好 謝謝現在我們進行詢答首先請登記第一位的麥玉珍委員發言主席好 有請國土署署長好 請吳興修署長"},{"start":2934.421,"end":2948.321,"text":"署長好今天的專案報告有看到就是分為三個大面向就是生活圈道路系統檢討還有永續提升行人安全計畫以及"},{"start":2948.902,"end":2969.839,"text":"提升道路品質但是其中就提到了為了強化行人安全而針對改善行人道路的地方補助計劃根據我們的國土管理署的統計全國市區人行到普及率110年"},{"start":2970.72,"end":2984.879,"text":"的年底為36.68%112年測為38.4%只有微微增加但是我看到你們的報告裡面的說98 95%以上"},{"start":2988.103,"end":3002.372,"text":"這樣的數據連預算中心在113年都指出成長幅度非常低落所以請教署長全國市區人行道的普及率是目前是多少還有明確的數據嗎這我想要請教一下"},{"start":3010.265,"end":3032.861,"text":"跟委員報告我們大概每年因為全台灣當時都是計劃道路開闢的時候人行道德施作比例的確很低那所以我們透過相關的計劃包含生活圈包含提升道路品質那也包含了這一個後來的這一個危險路口的改善以及現在的永續的那我們大概每年都會成長1%多到2%的狀況來進行那因為這樣因為全國各縣市都"},{"start":3039.045,"end":3048.568,"text":"普遍存在這樣的問題那所以我們的確是用這樣的目標持續在努力那也透過相關的預算在編列對但是我沒有看到短期的預期達到的目標啦過去這個計畫有沒有明確的改善計畫或者是說我們的進度控管還有是考核我是沒有看到我們看到的報告就是這幾頁就結束了"},{"start":3065.793,"end":3087.009,"text":"所以感覺剛才也看到 還有另外一句說你剛才說成長率就是但是我們的人行道現在列名的什麼 地域二名就是我們的人行道這邊好像地域一樣其中社會大眾關心的重點就是說我們人行道的寬度"},{"start":3089.951,"end":3109.448,"text":"還有依據我們的人行道的寬度還有交通量的最低的限制但從110年到113四年近寬不足最低標準的人行道也距離超過兩成所以我們國土署的問題檢討成果"},{"start":3113.171,"end":3141.455,"text":"都沒說都說達成率多少但是這個具體都沒有去講清楚所以我們的預期的什麼時候我們全國就是在低的標準寬度的人行道是在哪裡所以我們沒有看到你們報告裡面跟我們報告其實大約每年在跟大會在大院在做相關的這個預算執行報告其實我們的相關的計畫裡面都已經有提列"},{"start":3141.975,"end":3164.145,"text":"那因為各縣市所面臨的這樣的問題困難度不一那道路寬度呢也有寬窄不一那所以他要去劃的不管是實體人行道或標線型人行道那或者是施作相關的庇護島每一個道路的條件都不同所以我們每年都在協助地方政府把這些去做加速的執行那我們跟"},{"start":3164.505,"end":3183.048,"text":"大院報告的是說因為我們的預算執行率每年都高達98%以上顯示我們跟地方政府齊心努力每年都在改善這一些道路的人行到了寬度所以我們剛剛也提到大概每年是以1%到2%之間的比例再往上再提升"},{"start":3184.229,"end":3192.172,"text":"同時呢也在加速的訂定各項的規則在協助地方政府把這個做出來但是我們看到今天是不是要來說成果報告還有檢討報告對不對但是我看你們的檢討跟成果"},{"start":3198.021,"end":3217.756,"text":"都沒有檢討都是報告如果是做得那麼好的話為什麼你看我們台灣行人五大地獄現象12月的死亡率你自己看嘛所以說我們是說做得那麼好還有說一直在關心的是解凍解凍的費用但是有沒有關心說剛才你說的費用是足的"},{"start":3224.32,"end":3233.526,"text":"非能讓你做得夠的 但是我們看到的是這樣子的面向 跟委員報告其實如果認真要去做改善其實"},{"start":3236.137,"end":3245.363,"text":"所以我希望說你要有具體的計劃具體的計劃要送給我們辦公室可以嗎不是用講的 用講的講個幾句回去啦所以說事實上具體的計劃我們沒有看到每年的預算執行率都超過98%以上"},{"start":3256.01,"end":3267.576,"text":"所以才會希望大院對 預算98%以上執行率不到60%這樣子的話我們才要去凍結預算希望說你們要有計畫但是今天我看到的就是報告就是了了幾張就報告了事所以還有就是說我們在國土計畫上一起生活圈的道路裡面我們剛才有說裡面有九個"},{"start":3285.986,"end":3307.274,"text":"未能如期完工的工程 延到111年到延到116年但是在我們在其中三個案件在112年就是也提出多次的流標又沒有人來去標案 所以沒辦法去執行比如說我們彰化大補鄉這邊 我們大陸的寬度規劃"},{"start":3312.085,"end":3325.655,"text":"所以說也是 就是緩慢還有呢 我們工程的費用就一路上修原油就是在我們訂的11億現在增加到21億"},{"start":3327.817,"end":3355.054,"text":"七千八百萬但是新增的佔領就原定的餘額就是四十點三五趴結果呢從我們一零八年前就計劃要核定當初是要說今年十二月就完工了但是呢一直拖拖拖到七年十月份再宣布說再封路三年"},{"start":3356.154,"end":3378.984,"text":"這樣的計畫的形成所以說完全沒有在去做好所以呢又再編列預算所以這樣子的計畫什麼時候才看到說我們真正的執行的評估在哪裡經費又要管控在如何去製作才會達到說我們的"},{"start":3380.945,"end":3409.68,"text":"交通道路讓大家可以安心嘛但是我們沒有看到所以如果是做得好的話大家就不會去去申訴啦所以這個部分也多次的流標所以這個報告是不是可以要拜託你用一份給我們現在讓你看你說你怎麼樣有什麼就是措施或有什麼方案真的是達成不要一言再言"},{"start":3411,"end":3436.993,"text":"經費預算在算 又一直在掙扎事情沒做 錢一直在拿好 感謝委員因為其實在過去幾年的確因為工程預算就是在流標的問題比較嚴重那大概在11年到11、12、13年之間其實我們大概全國各地的公共工程都有類似的情形就是說整個的這個營建成本快補了"},{"start":3437.833,"end":3455.287,"text":"快速的上漲導致這些道路無法決標那其實在過去幾年都陸陸續續在做改善那現在都已經在執行當中那對於我們的預算來講其實預算上漲代表我們在這個地方呢他還是很受地方政府的這個支持工程要完成"},{"start":3457.709,"end":3467.624,"text":"預算上漲是沒有問題因為有新的道路有地方要改善但是執行經費95%工程執行再延後三年再來編列預算"},{"start":3473.112,"end":3477.035,"text":"這樣對不對所以說這個都是我們人民的期盼前不是說一直要預算但是工程又流標又來編列預算所以我們希望的執行的目標就要提升我們的區道路的品質與安全交通安全還有打造就是行人的與汽車的環境還有改善我們的交通"},{"start":3502.57,"end":3518.327,"text":"都是路口的轉彎的點的功能還有強化道路的排水還有照明我們的景觀的措施所以推動智慧交通的整理這樣的管理"},{"start":3518.747,"end":3521.949,"text":"這樣才真的是我們的目標但是我們不能在報告裡面執行力的預算我們跟你申請多少預算問得開嘹嘹但是你要報的說你們的執行的措施執行的效果在哪裡的目標在哪裡我們要的是這個對我們的人民才真的幫助不是說你們便利預算有花完達到預算"},{"start":3548.562,"end":3567.492,"text":"就是执行率95% 98%但是我们的措施我们的道路执行率达不到一半60%这样子的话我们就是要消耗力算不是真正的执行的目的所以希望我们的商项以上"},{"start":3568.172,"end":3583.198,"text":"提出更具體的預算還有怎麼樣的方案讓我們真真才了解你們做到哪裡才能說到最後如何再去解凍因為我們要的"},{"start":3585.098,"end":3600.482,"text":"凍結預算就是要讓你們要有具體的方式具體的目標才能照這樣去執行好嗎 可以嗎好 謝謝委員 我們會再做一些說明 謝謝好 麻煩你再把計畫交到我們的辦公室可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝麥立正委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":3615.711,"end":3640.17,"text":"好主席好各位委員各位官員大家早是不是有請吳署長吳署長有請好委員好好謝謝署長首先還是要對國土署這個非常辛苦表示這個感謝那首先今天要討論的是有關於市區道路品質改善及執行效益的檢討那內政部其實過去一集以來表示為了改善我國"},{"start":3641.171,"end":3660.05,"text":"市區道路品質跟人行環境的安全已經分別提及推動相關計劃中央現在的計劃是我們的第一個生活圈道路交通系統建設計劃以及提升道路品質計劃我們有投入大量的預算尤其在112年起我們標榜以人為本的規劃理念"},{"start":3661.972,"end":3678.13,"text":"那可是第一個我們想要請教署長的事可是實際核定人心改善相關的補助案件的比例從這個剛開始開始以後從106年主要的補助案件超過50%是有關於人心"},{"start":3680.593,"end":3698.664,"text":"人行環境改善的比例是比較高的非人行改善比例的是比較低的可是到112年的時候這幾年來講逐漸下滑下滑到超過50%下滑到32.67所以我覺得一般人民最關心的還是過去"},{"start":3699.244,"end":3713.741,"text":"很多委員所擔心的人行地域跟高齡者寸步難行的一些問題是不是可以請教署長為什麼人行環境改善的類別是人民所關心的比例從百分之五十幾一直下降到112點我們所收到的資料是大概百分之三十三左右"},{"start":3714.601,"end":3732.416,"text":"感謝那其實這也是委員所問到就是我們政策上做了一個修正也就是說過去他是把人行跟非人行放在同一個計畫那我們從112年開始開始分類出危險路口跟人行道的改善就把這個項目裡面再分為人行跟非人行"},{"start":3732.856,"end":3750.283,"text":"是那所以呢甚至後來再有了永續這樣的一個計畫出來所以我們把它徹底分成兩個那這樣可以分類的清楚因為在許多道路上它尤其是非六都的它有很多是純粹是屬於提升道路品質改善道路的"},{"start":3750.683,"end":3775.768,"text":"那有一些是可以做人行道的那過去混在一起看起來你就會好像全部都有那事實上我們再把它做詳細的分類以後那所以就會這樣表上看到這個就好像比較少事實上是另外有一個單獨的計畫來幫它執行是這個意思那選校署長這人行環境改善類別因為現在都是主要是以人為本的那有沒有機會未來在核定的跟計畫上可以多推動一些"},{"start":3776.528,"end":3805.376,"text":"因為過去100過去大概106年的時候其實他的比例是上升的嘛是他是超過50%的嘛有沒有機會就是說未來再調整的部分說還是以人行為主因為人才比較容易就新人才比較容易受惠的到嘛所以我們現在分兩個計畫以後在永續類的還有校園環境的這一個部分他的經費我們大概每年都有在編列120億當然如果各縣市政府如果執行效果真的很好我想我們也會再跟院"},{"start":3806.456,"end":3822.601,"text":"來爭取跟行政院再爭取再多但是呢也跟委員報告我們還是希望說這些預算喔都能夠讓我們如此的來進行因為畢竟各縣市政府都是需求非常殷切的所以我們預算如果以後執行好還要再增加我們會再來努力"},{"start":3822.901,"end":3851.605,"text":"沒問題好因為也跟署長報告其實我們在這個道路道路提升道路品質計畫過去是用前瞻的預算來做那未來的話就像您所說的我們會把它改成永續提升人行安全計畫的部分那預算的部分本來一年是50億50幾億也會提升到140幾億120億所以整個預算我會大幅的提升我希望可以為人行的這個可以為台灣的未來人行地域的部分可以做一些改善"},{"start":3852.245,"end":3870.383,"text":"那第二個我想要請教就是有關於我們這邊手上有個資料就是各地方政府其實市區道路人行道的普遍及普遍率的情形其實還是有一些真真簡簡那我們要請問說就是說因為國土署有一個人本交通手冊它是我們就是要載明"},{"start":3871.044,"end":3889.099,"text":"未來就是過去可能是以這個車子為主那未來是希望轉型以人為本的這個道路規劃為主軸可是六都之一的新北市這個人行道普及的率看我們現在手上的資料看起來是有倒退的一個傾向大概是倒退這個快要2.7%"},{"start":3890.74,"end":3916.558,"text":"那是不是有一些可以說明說是不是新北市目前有申報的併貨合併或合併的人行道的改善的數量經費是不是有倒退或被駁回的一個情形說明一下大概這個原因有兩個第一個就是說因為我們過去在劃人行道的標準的時候道路寬度是要超過8米以上甚至要到12米以上12米我們才會要求那後來大家"},{"start":3917.859,"end":3938.798,"text":"為了這個行人的安全問題所以我們統一把它下修了那這八米路以後八米路也可以化人像所以你的分母變大第二個尤其在新北因為這幾年新開發案比較多像這個溫宅駿這一類的開發案比較多所以它化設的道路的數量又增加了所以它整個分母都變大所以才會呈現但事實上我們可給"},{"start":3939.939,"end":3964.538,"text":"新北市的計畫其實一向都核給的數量是蠻多的啦所以我想大概以永續行人的話大概我們每一年大概都會有9件到15件之間啦那所以都是協助新北市政府去不斷的在提升這樣的一個道路品質那所以我想這一個計畫都有賴於大院這邊盡量的支持我們我們都還是會盡量協助地方那至於有一些是在"},{"start":3965.6,"end":3975.513,"text":"非六都的部分他們對於提升道路品質的部分的要求就會比較高也就改善現在道路品質不佳的部分那這個是屬於前瞻的部分這個也需要大院這邊來協助"},{"start":3976.963,"end":4000.768,"text":"是好那我再請教一下齁請教這個署長一下齁那未來我們現在很多不管是在這個市區道路過或是人行道路的部分的改善喔那剛剛有提到從我們會從提升道路品質計劃改後續前瞻在114年度會借其改成永續提升行人安全計劃來接棒每年大概會有100多億的這個預算案喔那未來不管是"},{"start":4001.408,"end":4022.713,"text":"我們改善的一個狀況不管是人行道或是道路的改善有沒有一個這個成效的評估的一個來檢討的部分就是我們修完這些道路或人行道以後有沒有可能給人民或是給一些一些外部單位來做一些審核所以我們現在修完有沒有多的經費審核完了以後的一個品質的一個檢驗"},{"start":4024.173,"end":4041.875,"text":"感謝委員的確我們在過去來講大概都是以一般的檢討會議來就是說我們會委託專家學者那還有一些相關有施工經驗的或是一些身障團體都會去做一些檢視這是第一個那第二個就是說我們也透過這一個車禍的車禍的調查"},{"start":4044.117,"end":4067.354,"text":"也就是說完工前跟完工後的車禍的頻率還有車禍的原因那我們現在也都有在做一些調查分析那確實它以我們之前所調查的成果來講大概以過去113年跟112年相比的話大概平均的車禍的降的數據我印象沒有記錯大概會降低了百分之四十幾%那所以其實它都會有效的改善"},{"start":4067.854,"end":4080.574,"text":"那至於這整個完整的品質的話我想都還有賴於我們後續會找專家學者跟深藏團體一起來做檢視這個我們會每年都會做出相關的檢查好 謝謝署長 那未來繼續加油好 謝謝署長 我們是請劉事芳 劉部長"},{"start":4089.859,"end":4114.589,"text":"周委員好部長好我覺得今天開這樣子的一個專案說明會我覺得我們非常感謝我們召委主席排這樣的案子其實就是希望說很多跟民生相關的一些重要的預算是可以趕快來提出解凍案那我們知道解凍案它是必須一個程序行政院要送到立法院程序委員會才能報院等等這樣的一個"},{"start":4115.669,"end":4137.35,"text":"部分所以我想要請教部長這邊是不是因為我就我所了解其實開議以後我們就很關心很多的解凍案那我相信各部會其實你所屬的內政部很多部會其實也把解凍案我相信就是很積極想要來處理那我是不是想請教部長你們有沒有一個所謂的時序表或是說有沒有哪一些的部會現在還沒有送案子到你這邊來的"},{"start":4139.599,"end":4144.884,"text":"跟內政部相關的其他署包括警政、消防、移民等等這些我們的會計單位本來就一體的所以一點都沒有差別導致重要的部分就是說我今天早上有對媒體來說明的部分"},{"start":4162.659,"end":4180.445,"text":"就是行政院到目前為止對於立法院所有通刪的部分有個636億要行政院自己去自行去處理刪減跟凍結這個部分目前為止還沒有跟立法院達成一個共識就是刪減哪裡凍結哪裡所以我們現在也只能用"},{"start":4180.985,"end":4202.279,"text":"所有的預算就是以前已經發生過的或是已經持續性的預算如果是新增的部分的話呢包括我們要新增的社會住宅的興建那我已經下令國土署跟我們的住都中心就先暫時不要動因為沒有新預算進來的話我們自己善加利用恐怕會違反我們預算的這個執行的程序"},{"start":4202.739,"end":4226.744,"text":"所以我還是要請教部長所以因為有些我個人認為有些的這個預算案的凍結有些是書面送出書面就可以解凍有些是要提專案報告才能解凍那這些案子本席是認為說應該就像我們主席召委我們今天所提的有些案子是我們認為是可以送進來是不是可不可以請你們內部再溝通檢討看看哪一些報告員"},{"start":4228.664,"end":4257.577,"text":"有沒有一些案子是可以送進來先解凍的報告委員這個就是原等於說這個解凍案如果送進來以後其實這個案子就撤案了嘛那未來在整體的整個政府在所謂的整個預算的使用上其實是可以拆炸彈嘛一個一個炸彈拆可以解開來我認為是可以讓整個政府的效率可以變更佳的報告委員那個立法院的預算解凍程序應該不是像委員所說的先由委員會處理應該是立法院的院會交辦下來沒錯沒錯那我們就要按照立法院交辦的程序來處理"},{"start":4258.766,"end":4269.169,"text":"好那希望說還是我們這邊還是要希望說部長有些比較容易或者民生重大案子的解凍案可以趕快請行政院送到立法院來好嗎好謝謝是好謝謝張志倫委員的質詢下一個我們請張宏祿召委"},{"start":4287.415,"end":4289.256,"text":"我請署長署長有請委員好署長我剛剛當然每個委員有每個委員的立場剛剛也有委員質詢有說到你們就是都做得不好所以刪你們預算要來解凍要看條件要好的話才要解凍你認同嗎"},{"start":4324.037,"end":4339.962,"text":"其實我想這個都是中央跟地方通力才能解決的問題今天也不一定是完全說預算編列到非常多地方政府就能夠完全執行因為每個大家執行的量能都有一定的程度那我們每年都在做這樣的考核"},{"start":4340.462,"end":4362.445,"text":"那不斷地在檢討看看地方政府所提案的內容因為事實上尤其做人行倒是一個很辛苦的事情因為現有的道路已經以車型為主要再改成人行的話那地方政府在執行過程當中我們也體會他要跟民眾溝通的一些困難所以在每年都會不斷地去檢討考核看看他的提案數量"},{"start":4362.881,"end":4389.033,"text":"那所以其實大家都已經盡力在執行那這個也不是說單方面說我只看一個數字而是事實上要去看到執行後的效果那所以到目前來講我們是認為我們的執行的成果是非常的好你認為你的執行成果好啊可是人家剛剛人家有的委員就認為你的執行不好啊對不對這個也不是我剛剛你自己有沒有聽清楚"},{"start":4389.773,"end":4417.871,"text":"有沒有你剛有沒有聽清楚有對嘛所以我剛我剛問你的我請教你的我要問你的時候他說你們資訊不好所以他刪你們預算啊啊凍結你們的預算啊啊你們用的好再來啊我只問你這個你你贊不贊成呃其實我反而是覺得要替地方政府在你只要回答我講清楚因為我們其實是執行的效果是非常好不是啊你只要回答我你贊不贊成啊呃其實"},{"start":4419.98,"end":4448.129,"text":"我是比較尷尬你比較尷尬我為什麼要問你這個我只能說我們盡力去處理啦我為什麼要問你這個我跟你講每個委員的看法都有他的有道理之處他要刪你的預算你要怎麼亂有人說亂刪有人說什麼我覺得各自表述但我是不大認同為什麼不大認同呢要看要看全國"},{"start":4449.417,"end":4467.435,"text":"你不能只看你的地方啊因為你們這些都是跟縣市政府合作的吧是對不對每個縣市政府的能力態度不一樣吧沒錯的確是這樣我想說你說錯了沒錯還是錯每個縣市政府"},{"start":4472.824,"end":4478.876,"text":"他的積極度他的能力他什麼都不一樣你不能用這個很差的縣市政府"},{"start":4479.878,"end":4505.845,"text":"啊來說全國都這樣所以你去看一個報表一個什麼要來刪這個預算要來做解凍的依據我個人認為不公平你對那個積極認識的縣市首長是一個非常不公平的事情那你本來就做不好的我說真的你要去動他去什麼的我覺得還說得過去但很多是積極在做的吧"},{"start":4507.161,"end":4528.186,"text":"是不是其實大多數都非常非常積極你也不要跟我講大多數啦我覺得這個我坦白跟你講署長你說大多數這就是官話了啦我們看得出來有的就不積極啊有的也是亂搞啊對不對我之前一年前了我請你們"},{"start":4529.66,"end":4551.33,"text":"對人行道 改善行人的這一個去訂定一個補助的標準 考核的標準我不知道你們做了沒 做得如何跟委員報告 因為過去去年才剛執行第一期所以它其實相關的考核是今年才會開始而且是在鼓勵提案"},{"start":4551.912,"end":4577.529,"text":"所以我們是先在目前為止都先用鼓勵提案的概念先鼓勵地方政府下去做我跟你講齁去年我去年你們去看你回去看我的諮詢我就諮詢我就要求啦你一開始做我就發現問題啦我是不是就覺得這個有問題啊你們要去做啊對不對你們現在的要求地方積極的來地方就給你報一堆案子來"},{"start":4578.732,"end":4603.419,"text":"到最後第一個沒有能力做第二個他報給你的案子跟他實際執行的內容是不一樣的啊對不對我是不是在去年就講了我說像這種的你就下次要補助你可以不給他你管他是什麼市長啊我們要把錢花在刀口上欸他給你申請人行道結果他就完全去做綠美化結果把人行道搞得亂七八糟"},{"start":4604.873,"end":4631.839,"text":"這樣合理嗎我覺得這筆錢就不能這樣花啊對這個我們在審查的過程當中都會去抓出這些問題都會去抓出這些問題不是除了抓出問題之外我是不是要請你們要做一個考核的不要又不是我錢給他的你就不管不會這我們事後都會去考核因為中間都會有列管的會議啊會列管跟檢討的會議你事後考核他都已經發包出去了然後"},{"start":4632.379,"end":4640.604,"text":"地方的發包他就依地方政府的發包去執行了啊等於他報給你中央是A計畫他地方執行的B計畫對不對那個B計畫他發包了你已經來不及處理了我們在設計階段都會有審查"},{"start":4649.348,"end":4653.713,"text":"都會要他把設計的報告會送過來我們會再做實際的檢查來確認他的這個預算的內容我就舉一個例子給你啊我們新北就很多啊對不對那像我就跟你講啦我們的長江路對不對他報給你A計畫他做的是B計畫啊對不對"},{"start":4668.582,"end":4695.785,"text":"阿這樣可以嗎因為像那種計畫的話就是說我們只能合我們要求的這一個部分我只能給你我的部分至於你要額外增加的一些綠美化那就是你自己的經費要去做處理啦我們通常都會把它切開來經費處理是一件事情我們對齁配合你的生活圈道路你的什麼齁還有你主要幹道15分鐘之內要到交流道什麼這都是你們的政策餒對不對它的人行道"},{"start":4696.809,"end":4702.145,"text":"如果亂做影響到車流你那個15分鐘的計畫能達成嗎"},{"start":4704.789,"end":4730.541,"text":"這個是環環相扣的你不要以為這一個降下去就沒事我覺得這個不對我剛舉長江路的例子就是全國也有很多這樣沒有縣市長那麼笨我跟您要一筆錢然後我自己再多加一點然後我來做什麼綠美化或做什麼我跟你講塞車是你的問題綠美化是我的政績"},{"start":4731.906,"end":4756.668,"text":"阿可以這樣嗎這筆錢重複的這樣子就會受到很大的影響所以我才說要做一個管考啦我覺得這一點真的很重要我想這個我們在現行的管考我想會把委員這個意見我們再加進來來檢視一下這些計畫的合理性應該是說它的內容的合理性你上次就這樣跟我講啦這個我們其實在管考會議都有在討論"},{"start":4758.049,"end":4780.242,"text":"我覺得這是一個要嚴肅去面對的問題啦既然有這筆錢我們希望他花的好啦而不是這樣子你如果把他執行的好我跟你講我不相信有哪個立委要再來說這筆錢怎麼樣做的不好怎麼樣我跟你講他如果這樣子敢這樣子講如果你把他廣告好的話全台灣都看得出他的成果的時候誰會去說這個不好"},{"start":4784.631,"end":4802.717,"text":"我覺得他自己就要就要面對人家的檢驗哪一個人能夠睜眼說瞎話我覺得你只要做得好人家就無法挑剔你啦所以在這樣的情況下像現在啦現在啦再給我30秒現在"},{"start":4804.81,"end":4829.255,"text":"你所有的前瞻計畫如果有-1萬這樣子你很多的補助沒了喔是不是很多都沒了很多都沒了你們會不會挪用這些去填那裡不會因為兩個預算項執行內容不一樣我知道執行內容我們在行政機關那麼久了啦可以怎麼樣我們大家都清楚我的意思是說"},{"start":4831.426,"end":4839.738,"text":"該什麼樣的就是什麼樣的不要去做別的啦反正前瞻計畫被刪了現在已經是事實了"},{"start":4840.735,"end":4863.047,"text":"不能給的就不能給了 我覺得也只能這樣啦我們這筆錢應該用在它原來的地方地方你管它什麼幾期幾期 那個另外想辦法也不是現在可以解決的前瞻一直沒有通過的話 大概不是只有要核定的案子會受影響可能連執行中的"},{"start":4863.7,"end":4883.769,"text":"都會受影響執行中的也會受影響那你執行中的你現在也沒辦法啊你內政部你也不可能拿出其他的錢來了啊你反而要趕快讓地方知道錢就已經到這裡了要怎麼收要怎麼去那個可以現在處理你不要現在不處理到時候又衍生一堆問題來我覺得應該是這樣子啊錢都已經被刪了啊"},{"start":4889.634,"end":4918.433,"text":"對不對 你不可能去伸出錢來吧沒錯 所以我們其實在之前的管考會議都已經有通知地方政府了就是原來預計核定的案子都停下來那執行中的案子我們就撥付到一定程度我們就不再撥款對 要先跟他們講我覺得這個要讓地方也有一個應變那像我們今天在討論的這個我必須要說一句如果預算沒解凍 你要先跟他們講"},{"start":4919.634,"end":4943.499,"text":"是沒有就是沒有啦不要現在他說他要繼續發包到時候發包完再跟你講說他已經發包了我覺得不應該欸這個是浪費錢欸浪費地方政府的錢欸他不要再去做任何發包的程序了了解因為生活圈是一個長期的計畫對一旦有中間有一個預算受到影響其實他連帶後面整個受影響是"},{"start":4944.159,"end":4968.954,"text":"但我的意思就是說你說的是沒有錯但是如果你他是他會地方政府有的或承辦的他沒有去管他他就先照計畫去發包那你發包完了反正也沒錢第一個浪費你去發包的錢第二個你沒有錢下來你反而衍生一堆問題到時候承包商到時候要來找你們什麼我跟你講他到時候推給你內政部說內政部就沒給我錢"},{"start":4971.854,"end":4984.327,"text":"這些我認為現在都要去預備我們這個預算這樣子因為我們剛也問了就是說行政院內政部也還沒有辦法去確確算出多少錢來我們也沒有去做解凍的問題"},{"start":4985.427,"end":5013.359,"text":"那沒有在這個情況之下我跟你講現在已經四月了啦可以預期今年很多都不能做了啦也做不了了啦不要浪費人民的納稅錢你反而要他們集中精力做哪些可以做的那這些長期計劃性的看明年的預算可以明年再補給他們我覺得這樣子才是解決問題啦不然你會變成中央跟地方空耗"},{"start":5014.249,"end":5024.834,"text":"沒有錢的空號是蛤這個我們已經有在檢討會議跟地方政府做說明請讓議委因應謝謝好謝謝張宏祿召委下一位我們請王美惠委員主席我們請署長你怎麼知道我要叫你啊我叫你你就站著是來主席"},{"start":5043.957,"end":5057.966,"text":"在這 署長剛才很多我們的好董事有說過今天就是要探討我們市區的生活簽署剛才最為你跟紅綠紮尾說的說你們想辦法我想不想想什麼辦法第二天前瞻的第五期到現在"},{"start":5072.085,"end":5079.115,"text":"還沒處理的時候,有的地方,你們補助是因為前瞻的地方,這樣他一定有發泡"},{"start":5084.297,"end":5100.966,"text":"像這樣要怎麼處理 來 署長你回答一下第一個就是說 第一就是說 生活圈的部分其實都是有家庭 政府統治啦因為生活圈是比較長期的 就是說一個居委可能四五年所以它中的部分 我先說今年 如果我這個部分你怎麼說 公文給他們我們在檢討會議 我們檢討會議裡面都已經有跟他們說明了"},{"start":5114.254,"end":5125.124,"text":"後面我們只能看預算的處理情形再通知他們所以這就是中央跟地方大家互相搭配但是前瞻就比較明確"},{"start":5128.291,"end":5150.771,"text":"你原地準備要合訂的,現在都先停了,那沒有了,沒有合訂這件事事情就是說,去年已經合訂在這行程的我就說,我就拔錢拔到這個位,照進度我拔到你那裡,出那裡沒有了因為照去年的尤省,我可以框訂的額度到多少,我就框到那邊給你那出那裡,平時你要自己預約營運,這都在檢討會議都有給你說明"},{"start":5152.392,"end":5153.793,"text":"現在有的年輕大嘛 有的是社區跟學校目前現在都有做的 目前"},{"start":5169.528,"end":5172.649,"text":"本心本性有跟你們提議,因為一定要市政府跟管理商,我們才有辦法去農曆嘛,因為如果沒有商,也不知道問題出一隊,還是帶一條路,不要帶一個學校跟路"},{"start":5187.134,"end":5192.978,"text":"社區要走的,不好走的,要改善的,一定他們要有提議出來嘛把提議出來,你們自己覺得說,帶一條陷害,可以先做嘛我們在這裏面,像你說的,這樣沒錢,這樣就海融融了這確實啦,有些地方,我們可以,有些地方變成暫停提案啦,不讓他們再提了"},{"start":5213.735,"end":5228.183,"text":"那有一些尤其是像剛才說的提升人行安全還有就是道路品質的部分那道路品質大概對有機廢料都大概衝擊是比較大"},{"start":5229.764,"end":5233.066,"text":"對非六都衝擊是比較大因為很多都要靠這個來把這長年失修的道路要做一些改善因為我覺得不是在六都裡面都怕人家說"},{"start":5245.755,"end":5248.937,"text":"提議有三件項目,中央的審核項目,內政可以投入,當局一來,局外可以緩修,可以溝通好,人生要走也很安全啦在這個安全當中,現在我好煩惱的就是說,要仰賴中央的步驟,結果沒有了啦"},{"start":5270.811,"end":5272.153,"text":"這是很煩惱啦像說我們今天大家有什麼問題可以做探討我們要謙證他站出來的時候 交付我們的內政看怎麼處理 如果做得好"},{"start":5288.835,"end":5296.22,"text":"我們還可以處理這個經費的時候因為以我自己來說我自己中央學校的步驟我認為有改善過你們有時間去騎去走都做得很好啊評測也很好啊所以為了這個醫生暫時凍結的時候對我自己來說應用費最大是"},{"start":5318.083,"end":5326.989,"text":"因為你如果知道我的個性,我不分藍綠,不分誰在地方執政,只是把義氣的建設做好才好,不要讓義氣的白色領域,兩樣的區域,地方什麼棟沒工,寶座就沒工"},{"start":5343.36,"end":5345.541,"text":"這是很大的侮辱啦所以署長在這裡 你要知道我真正在那邊要順路騎摩托車的時候 把你收回整個日本啦你要知道 把你持 非常需要 中央的合作啦尤其現在"},{"start":5364.83,"end":5367.131,"text":"像剛才那條路擺好之後 本縣一直發表對應的建議 對應的計劃 已經漸漸完成了現在八十月的十二條路 署長你知道這條路嗎 要怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":5387.034,"end":5394.02,"text":"因為現在可能就暫時無法及時發佈了啦因為現在暫時有部分先暫停下來所以我就是站在我的地方的立場我最高興的啦本來認為班俠會的交通用這條路來改善結果現在沒辦法啦"},{"start":5409.718,"end":5418.481,"text":"市長,那有什麼方法?現在有先跟市府有說我知道有說,那你中央有什麼方法?我也是希望這比較快解凍,這邊的部分我們就可以儘速來核定這部分這樣就是說,解凍後對家役及本社會的責任就能夠做了"},{"start":5434.787,"end":5443.409,"text":"我認為市府也認真發表 因為我講實在的市府也認真 我們民運代表也認真所以我們就是要手牽手為了地方的建設來發表有的人擔心 有的人擔心他說不知道地方的感覺怎麼樣"},{"start":5465.213,"end":5469.455,"text":"所以署長,在這,我認為,長久以來,在過程中,我開台北的時候,你已經知道地方的需求是什麼,要改善的是什麼,所以有做到不好的,我們也要改善,本身來說,"},{"start":5488.534,"end":5496.677,"text":"我們忙在人行道做完這個登彎這個關節的時候讓登彎的騎摩托車騎卡車的人慢慢危險這是我們中央跟地方要去看好做好不是做了好 把我們改善了一點小細節會因為一個車禍來地上很多危險的人"},{"start":5518.846,"end":5529.09,"text":"市長,在這裡面本身要跟你說,這是很多,因為大家也看到自己的改變,自己的水平也好,這裡的大廈也好,學府也好,這裡都漸漸已經改變了,你會很後悔,所以這裡不能等"},{"start":5542.741,"end":5549.846,"text":"拜託 國境有什麼計劃 什麼好處理可以早日在第二次的建設 國境配合不像你們說的 加上發寶雲也沒辦法跟大英說 這就沒辦法 還要想出辦法不是沒辦法啦 有的很大方向啦三三的 有的沒的啦 當然啦"},{"start":5570.461,"end":5580.566,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員下一位我們請黃婕委員質詢好謝謝主席我想先問一下我們立法院的預算中心有代表在這邊可以回應一下嗎沒有"},{"start":5599.65,"end":5604.101,"text":"沒有預算中心基本上是運作的除非有特別的事情否則不會來備詢"},{"start":5605.3,"end":5631.213,"text":"因為我看我們開會通知上面有針對這個副本都有請預算中心然後我們總務處 副本啊對啊對啊因為這今天的案子跟之後的解凍是有關係的啦所以應該是有一個複製的動作啦我的理解沒有錯的話應該是這樣對 但是不表示他會來備詢啊今天也沒有要處理解凍案嘛因為我剛剛有講過嘛這個程序是行政院提出來之後 復委之後我們才能夠進行解凍的處理但專報可以先走啦 好不好"},{"start":5632.902,"end":5650.133,"text":"這就是我的疑惑因為今天這個排這個專案報告會變成說我們在這邊不太知道用意為何既然不是要針對這個預算的內容進行解凍的討論那我們在這邊是不是有一點浪費時間呢所以呢我會覺得說大家如果早知道說這個"},{"start":5652.055,"end":5662.882,"text":"解凍就是有一定的程序那立法院過去的程序也都是必須要先由院會交付下來進到委員會我們才可以走這樣的解凍程序那我們在這邊竟然沒有辦法討論實質的解凍與否那在這邊討論這個專案報告"},{"start":5668.326,"end":5681.184,"text":"好像沒有任何實質的意義也沒有任何效益所以我是覺得說之後是不是就是不要這樣浪費時間了對所有的委員也不是很尊重啦那我們是不是先請那個國土署署長來吳署長有請"},{"start":5691.853,"end":5712.204,"text":"好 署長好其實剛剛很多委員都有提到說大家在各個選區擔心自己相關的這個人行道的工程的計畫延宕或是停擺那我在這邊也要幫我的選區來請命因為其實我的選區剛好去年我也很努力爭取到了一個是我們高雄中央公園周邊的人行道的計畫"},{"start":5713.044,"end":5736.15,"text":"那另外一個是我們高雄火車站周邊也有整體人行計畫的改善那甚至我們到現場也都會刊了非常多次好不容易有了新的進度結果因為今年的這個預算大砍大山大洞然後導致剛剛舊署長的意思聽起來是就算已經核定的也可能接下來走不下去是這個意思嗎"},{"start":5736.97,"end":5758.353,"text":"根本報告大概第一個就是在有關生活圈的部分有一些提案我們就會請他先暫緩因為我們在排那個每年的預算執行的時候會把執行中的優先那有些新提案的部分如果預算在執行過往當中的確排不進去我們會請他暫緩"},{"start":5759.514,"end":5774.825,"text":"那第二個大概就是前瞻的部分大概是衝擊最大因為很多縣市政府是把前瞻跟永續它是混合在提案的那這混合提案的話前瞻的部分沒有的話那可能連帶了一些案子也會受影響"},{"start":5777.073,"end":5793.28,"text":"謝謝署長的報告我聽完真的是要吐血了去年好不容易爭取到這個人行道的計畫對我們高雄市區的整個行人的改善非常非常之重要再加上去年上半年好不容易我們內政委員會通過了一個行人設施條例也順利三讀通過了"},{"start":5794.56,"end":5804.966,"text":"那所有全台灣的人民期待的是整個全台灣人行的計畫開始可以大動作的開始進行改善結果現在跟我說因為總預算被亂刪亂砍亂動導致我們原本的計畫必須停擺必須耽擱那這樣我們要怎麼對我們選民來交代呢"},{"start":5816.576,"end":5829.214,"text":"所以我是覺得非常遺憾啦再次還是要表達從去年下半年省預算到今年上半年的復議案再到現在我們要進行這個無關解凍實質與否的一個專案報告的討論都還是發現說"},{"start":5834.44,"end":5848.526,"text":"這個預算根本就是亂砍的啊對民眾來說不只沒有福國利民而且禍國殃民我是覺得非常非常遺憾那我還是希望接下來有可以有盡快補救的措施包括說現在"},{"start":5849.326,"end":5852.528,"text":"因為我也知道說其實政院還有636億因為通刪要叫我們各個部會要自行刪減然後自行刪減之後才會確定到底刪了多少數字我們才有辦法進一步的討論怎麼送進立法院然後怎麼討論解凍這個就是現在因為亂砍預算然後沒有目的沒有章法的亂砍之後導致到已經今年已經到4月囉已經到4月了"},{"start":5877.802,"end":5904.309,"text":"還沒有辦法好好討論到底如何解凍這些預算這是我是覺得非常頭痛啦這件事情那也會很直接的影響到我們地方上的計畫那除了這兩個我們我的選區的計畫可能很可能受到影響之外我也還是要問一下啦因為其實我們還是很關心全台灣人行道的普及率那其實到目前為止我們全台灣市區的人行道普及率也只有38%"},{"start":5906.365,"end":5925.756,"text":"那這個就是為什麼我們去年上半年那麼急著要把人行行人設施條例通過是希望說接下來可以普及的快一點可是呢到目前為止以目前的缺口來說我大概算了一下如果以目前38%我們想要達到百分之百人行到普及還需要大概170年"},{"start":5928.284,"end":5951.323,"text":"以目前這個做法的進度下去啦還要170年我們全台灣的人行道才會讓大家在各個大街小巷都看到人行道普及那這是我這種很擔心說現在這種歸宿前進的建設進度到底要怎麼樣加快進度那當然預算的爭取是一個很重要的趕快立法院錢下來我們才有錢來加速的前進嘛"},{"start":5955.086,"end":5981.336,"text":"那還有沒有其他的方式是可不可以就是如果我們財政問題一直沒有辦法解決一直被被這樣子亂砍亂刪之後我們到底還可以怎麼樣去改善的根本報告其實因為在實體人行道的建設其實他是需要比較多的經費因為實體而且實體人行道他在過往當中以前有道路來講他要需要更多的溝通協調那但是標線型的"},{"start":5981.929,"end":6010.749,"text":"人行道當然是一個比較次要的那有時候也會民眾講說感覺上他需要更多的交通控制的手段來協助標線型人行道那相對成本是低但其實這兩個做法是可以混用但是呢以經費不足的狀況下標線型人行道跟小部分的路口改善是可以先行那這部分也是我們在另外在推相關計畫的時候會來來盡力來協助地方政府達成而且"},{"start":6011.85,"end":6030.262,"text":"標線行程行道跟路口改善對地方政府來講財政的壓力是相對比較小這個我們同步也會協助地方政府來執行尤其在一些狹小巷弄裡面這些都可以來做的這是我們同步可以來做但是如果希望大幅度的改善當然最終還是需要財政上的一個支持我想做這樣的報告"},{"start":6031.035,"end":6046.191,"text":"好謝謝署長這個部分再麻煩你再督促我們各地方縣市政府如果大型的這種實體的人行道沒有第一時間因為錢下不去那是不是可以先讓他們先普遍的做這種簡易型的人行道呢是好謝謝署長"},{"start":6051.44,"end":6077.367,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員我再次跟委員會報告說明一下今天的這個有一些議事的流程跟規則啦這個如果對於這個程序不是很了解其實我都覺得可以多請教一下議事人員我再次講一下這個解凍案的流程如果要解凍要處理就是由行政院提出 復委之後再委員會討論但是很多解凍案當初提案的條件都要進行專案報告經同意後 使得解凍換言之如果今天沒有開這個專案報告之後也是要開的"},{"start":6078.067,"end":6104.388,"text":"那我們如果可以用現在前面的時間多排幾場跟解凍案有關的專案報告未來這個行政機關在送解凍案的時候我們從議事效率的角度我們可以一天處理好幾個因為實際上巡達的程序都走完了也不用好幾個專案報告都拼在一起然後到最後造成這個會議發生的一個狀況所以用前面的空檔先排專案報告先把前提條件處理完跟解凍案是不衝突甚至是有助於解凍的流程要推進在此特別跟委員會報告說明"},{"start":6105.809,"end":6113.712,"text":"這我想行政機關心裡很清楚我們早一點排到底對解凍是有幫助還是有害我想這個大家都很清楚啦好 謝謝接下來我們請李博弈委員質詢署長署長有請今天是專案報告不是解凍"},{"start":6132.591,"end":6152.701,"text":"那今天這一個專案報告的前面的名稱是說市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益檢討專案報告這是來自這個我們去年度在審預算的時候在台灣民眾黨所提出來的這一個凍結案凍結這一個專案的25%的凍結案"},{"start":6158.342,"end":6187.558,"text":"那也從剛才台灣民眾黨的委員他質疑這個執行率98%以及地方政府有沒有需要這些相關的這些計畫的內容看到台灣民眾黨到現在還是沒有任何希望解凍的這個想法那在這邊我要非常剛剛主席你也講到你今天排這個其實是要為了未來解凍方便我跟你說啦主席"},{"start":6191.579,"end":6213.532,"text":"這一個道路品質的專案報告裡面還有這個生活圈道路還有提升人行安全計畫還有提升道路品質計畫有三個你要不要做三次這假的啊那也跟解凍無關啊今天就是大家好好來檢討這些專案報告我想要請教署長的"},{"start":6216.84,"end":6234.698,"text":"我從去年一直在爭取包含這個我們內政委員會到高雄考察那我跟剛才的黃婕委員我們也一起考察了高雄車站旁邊的這個人行道人行道的專案計畫那個時候我們剛通過行人安全行人交通安全設施條例"},{"start":6236.039,"end":6260.253,"text":"所以國土署這邊也提出包含六年幾百億的預算的計畫我想這個剛剛也講得很清楚有被延宕了署長我請教你我們另外一次考察的翠華路跟德明路提升道路品質計畫這個會不會受到影響這個高雄市對我們來講對高雄市的整個預算來講"},{"start":6262.184,"end":6288.13,"text":"兩條路鋪設道路品質要達到兩億的預算喔這個有沒有受到影響我一個一個問完第二個新台17南段工程我也帶你去看了這個接受路的拓寬也是需要兩億多的生活圈道路這個有沒有受到影響還有新莊一路用地改善計畫新莊一路整個下水道"},{"start":6289.831,"end":6314.547,"text":"計畫都已經送過來了現在是不是要停下來了這個有沒有受到影響我們擔心的是這些計畫有沒有因為預算的統三600多億再加上財劃法好你現在財劃法下放給地方之後這一些我剛提到的這幾個有沒有受到影響 署長我簡單說明那前瞻的部分"},{"start":6315.285,"end":6334.828,"text":"立案前瞻的部分是確實啦就是說新的核定案都先停下來新的核定案就是原來在今年所以啊新的S7難斷這個是新的核定案啊對那這是第一個第二個就是說生活圈的部分也很明確就是說優先給已經發包執行中的"},{"start":6335.94,"end":6365.38,"text":"又先給發包執行中的署長我這一個新台17還沒有發包執行因為後來國防部這邊有提出另外的需求沒錯沒錯已經協調好了又被影響了是好不容易行政院已經協調好了對所以有關於生活圈不管是新台17或者是後面講的這個道路拓寬案大概這個部分就是屬於新的案件的話我們也都是先審但是沒有辦法核定"},{"start":6366.324,"end":6393.907,"text":"現在就沒有辦法 因為我們預算是優先給執行中的蘇長我不知道你收到公文了沒有這個行政院已經協調好國防部對於他的戰備然後對於他的這個攻堅計畫 待拆待限的計畫這個已經協調好了包含工程會已經協調好了那我也希望這一部分因為已經協調好的話國路署這邊可以一樣來做一個審查至於您剛剛最後提到還有裁劃法的部分因為裁劃法也是我們現在在等最後的結果"},{"start":6395.009,"end":6403.431,"text":"因為才化法的部分會對於這一個永續跟這一個生活圈的部分大概又是另外一個因為現在我們也在"},{"start":6404.293,"end":6430.626,"text":"最後在等院的最後的結果那到時候也會跟地方政府再召開看看是後續的執行案件的分配比率經費的這個分擔比率或者是說對於核定案件的內容是不是大家要重新做調整這個我們就會有相關的因應的做法再來做跟地方政府來做溝通我也會跟高雄市政府一起找內政部一起找國土署來做這些相關的討論"},{"start":6431.917,"end":6458.947,"text":"因為我們這個好不容易從劉仕芳立委爭取到劉仕芳部長到現在好不容易把最後的代差代鑒還有這個戰備都已經都已經協調好了然後現在因為被國土署被內政部認為是新的計畫可能會有延宕來我要請劉部長新台17啊劉部長有請委員好報告報到齁"},{"start":6462.069,"end":6478.932,"text":"最後這個代菜代件還有戰備這個都已經協調完了在這個行政院都已經協調完了那剛剛署長說這個可能會屬於新的計畫可能會延宕到新台時期接下來其實已經可以動工了但是算新的計畫可能沒有辦法動了"},{"start":6480.366,"end":6505.909,"text":"這個請問部長我們要怎麼接下來處理目前因為新台17縣確實是分成兩段南段這部分我上個禮拜已經卸掉了如果是屬於一個已經執行當中的計畫然後是跨年度的話我們來看看原先的計畫可不可以容納進去但是如果是全新的話可能沒有這個行政院或者是立法院講好未來要煽動的這個預算數有沒有包括這一項那如果沒有包括的話我們才能執行"},{"start":6506.431,"end":6527.764,"text":"那簡單講 也跟部長說明一下現在的進度到這個中正 到介壽路這一段 其實算舊的計畫但是從介壽路再往南 我跟署長去會堪的這一段兩億多因為後面有牽涉到古蹟公園 遺蹟公園等等的這一段可能算新的計畫"},{"start":6528.965,"end":6538.581,"text":"但這兩億多新的計畫來講對台17來講就是最後就是差了那麼一公里差那麼一公里就到中華路沒辦法非常可惜齁"},{"start":6539.721,"end":6567.227,"text":"這牽涉到我們整個南門也要做一個改造把原本的六個路口的圓環要改造成兩個大路口也就是從成峰路接古山路從左營大路接中華路然後合併我們的這個新台時期我們希望這一個計畫也可以來創造包含這個財化法實施之後那財化法當然現在可能也在示現財化法如果實施到底高昌市政府這一步"},{"start":6567.607,"end":6584.865,"text":"這一條道路剛市政府可能原本分配的比例25他可能要變成70或多少這可能都要必須大家一起來協商有可能114年的總預算可能要跟財化法一起連動才能夠處理委員所說的這一段道路要施工的計畫總經費的部分"},{"start":6587.069,"end":6602.588,"text":"謝謝部長這個我們還是要一起來努力啦雖然我已經接手你繼續在處理新台時期了現在遇到的狀況那部長也非常清楚那也希望部長可以指示國土署這邊新台時期要讓他如期在明年完工我們來努力謝謝"},{"start":6611.238,"end":6628.125,"text":"好謝謝李博義委員我還是要再次跟委員會說明一下這個專案報告要排幾次要怎麼解凍大家都是商量過了包含今天的題目剛剛有他質疑說今天的題目怎麼練今天的題目是跟國土署商量好的不要打錯人自己打臉政府很奇怪如果真的要排三次"},{"start":6628.785,"end":6654.132,"text":"如果解凍要排三次如果民進黨委員趙偉要排三次要以求完備這我們當然也會尊重好不好但我們認為道路圈這個題目一個案子排一次把它講清楚有些人關心品質有些人關心人行道有些人關心建設進度把它講清楚了對於解凍是有幫助的再來這個會議不是假的喔趙偉該排該處理好的該溝通好的都有做前世的溝通這不要到最後弄起來好像是民進黨委員不想解凍是不太好看好不好好 下一位我們請蘇僑會委員質詢"},{"start":6667.122,"end":6669.723,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請劉思芳劉部長劉部長"},{"start":6676.09,"end":6680.052,"text":"部長好 在開始之前我們剛剛主席剛好在我上台之前講了這一段這個我也是想表示一下這個主席可能本身沒有提這個相關主席本身應該沒有提這一案的這個這一幕的預算案嘛可是"},{"start":6694.219,"end":6696.62,"text":"事實上我們今天為什麼要花這麼多的時間在處理這一幕這一個專案報告甚至是討論是不是要解凍呢老實講我們手上可以看到就是這樣子的一個案子這個案子是"},{"start":6711.346,"end":6719.571,"text":"這個國土署的第七款第二項第七目的第三在生活圈道路交通系統建設計劃跨號市區道路也就是今天的會議通知單上面發的這個所謂解凍案的這個部分名稱可是啊這個案子我們怎麼看左看右看這個案子沒有在委員會討論過啊"},{"start":6732.498,"end":6736.162,"text":"這個案子是用黨團的名義直接送交到院會去啪一個就出現了然後就凍結了預算然後我們就必須今天內政委員會又要召開一個專案報告來討論是不是要解凍這一個預算"},{"start":6750.536,"end":6773.17,"text":"好 那要解凍預算對 是要經過這些詢問沒有錯所以主席說程序上我們是加速了我覺得也是辛苦主席了因為這真的不是主席的意思不是主席個人提出的這是別的黨團提出的我想主席也是很委屈啊可是我們再細看這個黨團你說他如果提的內容很有道理那我們也就認了"},{"start":6773.43,"end":6779.733,"text":"表示內政委員會都不夠專業沒有提出他的案子沒有像他想的這麼周延所以我們就花時間在內政委員會來討論這個案子可是我們看看這個案子你看前面在講的說他是要來討論這一幕生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫那下面是什麼他下面是說因為內政不好在提升道路品質計畫這個項目做得不好所以第三段"},{"start":6802.606,"end":6808.05,"text":"原動結該預算這兩個計畫好像不太一樣部長我想請問你一下您剛剛在部長你提出的今天的這一份專案報告裡面第一題就破題很清楚的告訴大家本業務業管道路建設相關議題有什麼有哪三項部長可以請你簡單說你櫃部業管道路建設相關議題"},{"start":6831.887,"end":6853.922,"text":"有哪三項 各自代表的是 重點是哪一些嗎是 我先跟委員報告一下只要簡答就好了在委員的那個書面報告裡面確實講得非常的清楚就是我們現在所要那個辦理的這個事項應該不是只有剛剛你所提到這個由這個台灣民眾黨所提的這個部分而且這些幾乎都是法定的預算"},{"start":6854.722,"end":6861.144,"text":"是啊 你這邊就很清楚的寫嘛第一大段就寫了本部的夜館道路建設相關議題有生活圈道路交通系統建設這個主要是在打通打通我們道路的瓶頸耶然後在造橋鋪路這樣的部分那它可能有市區的部分 沒有錯但是打通瓶頸造橋鋪路好 第二個呢我們有永續提升人行安全計畫第三個 我們提升道路品質計畫"},{"start":6882.33,"end":6886.852,"text":"結果剛剛的這份提案是在講提升道路品質提案做得不好所以我來凍結這個我們打通瓶頸的道路交通系統計畫請問這到底是哪一門子的提案我們為什麼花時間在處理這種提案我真的是不太理解啦好啦"},{"start":6901.019,"end":6912.929,"text":"所以我先用這個運算案回應一下剛剛主席這樣說我覺得主席真的辛苦啦但是這個部分剛剛第一位質詢的委員他看起來也對部會的報告相當不滿意所以到時候"},{"start":6917.633,"end":6945.533,"text":"預算到底要不要解凍啊因為他剛剛不滿意啊那這樣結論到底是什麼到底到時候如果院會交下來了以後到底是要解還是不要解所以我想表示的是我們當然想解凍啊可是這整個問題就是今天的立法院完全亂的套啦完全亂的套啦你提預算審查的這個案子可以不在委員會直接提不在委員會提出直接到院會去提提的案子又是叫A和B倒來倒去不知道到底怎麼去"},{"start":6947.114,"end":6968.644,"text":"然後最後現在來質詢的速度 院會根本還沒有交辦下來我們今天到底在處理什麼亂了套 一切都亂了套好 所以我要從我的PPT這一頁開始接起來來啦 公務預算亂山亂洞 錢在預算根本不管啦因為 大家也覺得很好笑對不對 我也覺得蠻好笑的因為我也不曉得要怎麼接了"},{"start":6970.208,"end":6973.911,"text":"我要來看看 這個我們公務預算亂扇亂動啦公務預算 來 部長我自己看到這一次國土署的這個預算被煽動應該是有這四項吧這四項都是跟民生計畫相關的目前可以看得到煽動經驗大概是有這些狀況這沒有錯嘛 對不對生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫汐止的白袍無色宅 租屋補貼業務費"},{"start":6995.07,"end":7022.47,"text":"這四項沒有問題吧對不對都是有受到影響的很清楚嘛來我想請問新北受到影響有多少有統計嗎新北現在案件有多少因為新北的部分大致上是在大概一個白跑虎大概就是最明確啦因為白跑虎的部分是1.241啦但事實上他還會涉及到更大因為後續的"},{"start":7023.547,"end":7050.979,"text":"周邊的這個建設我們也通知新北市政府都暫停了是啊 秀宅就暫停了嘛那我最關心的我去年剛剛爭取到這個林口巴黎的105市道的這個部分是不是有受到影響因為我看到它也是在設備及投資這個也是在生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫裡面嘛對不對報告大概現在大概是因為105是剛開始的計畫對所以它還比較沒有用到錢但是現在的A3"},{"start":7052.345,"end":7059.689,"text":"現在A3就是他接過去的那一段就從林口市區接到105的那一段A3進化道路的新闢工程就會受到影響對那已經直接受到影響直接受到影響影響什麼樣影響是不開工因為你剛剛有說我們工程不是去買東西我今天10個本來預算10個然後現在預算少一點我就買5個工程是整個就不能開標了"},{"start":7073.337,"end":7093.935,"text":"不是我們是要求他在進度上我們要控管就是他沒有辦法讓他執行太快因為我們錢付不出來所以本來可以執行速度會減慢是第二個就是像土城那個鼎福安居旁邊的那一個12米道路12米道路也是增加了一個喔那這樣的那我的櫻桃安居一定也會受到影響囉對櫻桃安居也受到影響"},{"start":7094.994,"end":7119.545,"text":"好喔 那這個什麼時候可以因為這都是114年本來預計要的那我們現在都是給先執行中的所以可以看到嘛我們今天這樣子煽動預算下來最後受災的都是我們的民生計畫啊那我就不曉得現在這個解凍案到底要怎麼排怎麼速度是如何因為院會什麼時候要交下來根本不知道啊院會會說那是行政院沒有送出來啊"},{"start":7120.445,"end":7139.49,"text":"可是問題是你現在這個統三三成這個樣子數字到底要怎麼排根本現在也沒有人算得出來所以我還是再說一句一切都亂的套一切都亂的套這就是現在立法院的狀況但我們還是很希望如果內政部這邊可以多給院會給行政院多一點意見看怎麼配合的話當然我們是希望預算"},{"start":7144.451,"end":7157.899,"text":"可以早一點解凍因為該有的程序還是要有然後可以讓整個工程整個甚至國家恢復秩序我是覺得這樣是比較好啦好那最後呢那個謝謝部長跟署長我想請問一下交通部交通部的代表"},{"start":7161.328,"end":7179.225,"text":"公路局副局長林副局長我在去年4月的時候有跟其他委員共同舉辦了道路交通工程改善公聽會我在公聽會上的時候就有講出我覺得要改善交通環境其實有很大的重點就是我們可以從工程面直接來改善"},{"start":7180.346,"end":7202.043,"text":"這同意嘛 沒有問題嘛 對不對剛剛其實劉部長也是這樣說嘛從工程面直接來改善交通環境所以我要求交通部要針對這個十年來喔只有修正過一次的交通工程規範來進行修正當時交通部在公定會上答應我兩個月要提出來啊從去年四月兩個月就是去年六月啊現在是"},{"start":7203.024,"end":7223.312,"text":"又是四月了請問進度整體的交通工程的指引這個都已經發佈而且我們整個規劃案都已經發佈在實施了已經發佈在實施了對那你為什麼跟委員辦公室溝通這麼差對啊你確定是已經修正實施了你修正了哪一些公務員13-5號已經正式發佈了"},{"start":7226.098,"end":7237.119,"text":"那規範的部分在持續還是有的部分有的急迫了我們有檢討那規範有些部分我們持續也都在檢討所以到底是修正完了沒有你修正了哪一些啊"},{"start":7240.077,"end":7260.761,"text":"報告委員我們現在修正的大概有兩個規範第一個是交通工程規範第二是公路路線設計規範那這個我們有是啊這都是公聽會當時要求的那我們現在都逐步就是跟著有一些規範因為跟內政部國度署稍微有一點差異現在我們要把它融合在一起所以我們就相關的我覺得你們這樣的態度難怪當時會沒有辦法讓各界都接受"},{"start":7265.302,"end":7285.244,"text":"因為連委員辦公室要表達的意見我也沒有參與到整整一年的狀況我這麼關心還開了公聽會結果你現在不但沒有送資料來然後連修改了什麼也沒有跟我們說明也沒有讓我們表示意見那現在是什麼狀況我要求你現在你說你修正了而且甚至公佈了請你把資料送辦公室來我們來做一個討論謝謝"},{"start":7290.871,"end":7294.895,"text":"好謝謝蘇喬惠委員的諮詢下一位我們請黃建斌委員諮詢謝謝主席主席我們有請內政部六部長跟國土署的吳署長六部長吳署長有請"},{"start":7313.101,"end":7340.431,"text":"委員好部長早部長大家都知道我們114年的中央政府總預算案在今年的1月21號就已經三讀通過那我們賴清德總統則是選擇在法定期限的最後時間也就是3月21日壓線公佈中間隔了整整的兩個月然而許多部會卻一直不斷地公開說總預算被凍結的金額有多少會造成許多政策自然難行"},{"start":7341.471,"end":7363.138,"text":"結果我們現在看到的情況是明明有許多預算提出解凍報告就可以來解凍 競速來解凍但中央卻沒有看到任何一個部會送解凍報告甚至我們有媒體揭露說有些部會官員脫落早就已經準備好報告但是長官還沒有下令 首長受到壓力不敢批核我想這明顯就是透過這資訊影響到我們公務人員"},{"start":7365.117,"end":7384.161,"text":"我想中央部會不提報告就算了我們許多部會的首長甚至還在民進黨大罷免的場合裡面大肆的造謠我想民眾的眼睛是血亮的部會裡不趕快送解凍報告一方面又說凍結預算的假消息我想這政府這樣子對整個行政效益是有問題會造成社會動盪"},{"start":7388.632,"end":7416.588,"text":"立法院提出預算的凍結案這行之多年這就是因為發現中央政府在編列預算跟執行預算上有不周全的地方甚至監察院跟審計部也會提出來檢討所以才要求中央部會你要提出報告我們告訴全國人民我們的錢要怎麼花要怎麼改進而不是手裡拿著人民的納稅錢你愛怎麼花就怎麼花本席這邊要提供幾個客觀的數據我希望中央政府不要再做巨嬰了"},{"start":7417.765,"end":7430.269,"text":"民國95年陳水扁總統執政的時候總預算的凍結比例高達13.24%那陳水扁總統怎麼做他就想盡辦法趕快跟我們立法院的在黨來做理性的溝通盡速來解決預算的凍結"},{"start":7432.93,"end":7447.597,"text":"那台推動我們的政務馬英九政府之後102年的中央總預算被凍結是達到10.06%那馬政府依然一切都正常運作為什麼到了今天賴清德總統的時期我們預算被凍結4.06%中央政府說我們什麼都自愛難行我想這前後比較國會人士有公平"},{"start":7454.72,"end":7473.812,"text":"今天內政委員會邀請內政部跟交通部來進行市區道路品質改善計畫執行的效益跟檢討專題報告我主要就是針對國土署生活圈道路交通系統的建設計畫業務費的預算的凍結條件本期這邊要先肯定我們內政委員會的劉許廷召委我們比內政部還要進展"},{"start":7474.933,"end":7503.892,"text":"還有我們內政部的委員我相信態度都一致就希望能夠趕快來報告我們盡快的來審議讓許多預算可以盡速來解凍執行我想部長你照理應該要請內政部各所屬機關趕快來準備解凍的報告我希望內政部之後能夠拿出更積極的作為態度那我們今天回到今天的主題就當初為什麼會有這一項預算的解凍案就是因為國土署沒有好好的監督地方政府執行社區的道路養護"},{"start":7504.893,"end":7533.533,"text":"我們明明知道有些地方政府執行不佳就不斷的給他預算給他經費造成政府部門的這個效益不彰甚至是惡性循環那更重要的這個執行效率不佳不是立法院說的這是審計部跟監察院的報告裡面都明明白白的指出有許多需要檢討的地方因此這個預算的凍結案是基於非常客觀的事實我希望內政部能夠盡快的檢討以提出改善的方案首先我們看到審計部在"},{"start":7534.193,"end":7538.96,"text":"中央對地方政府補助管考及執行情形的報告中指出"},{"start":7539.978,"end":7565.799,"text":"內政部國土管理署補助地方政府辦理提升道路品質計畫但是補助計畫的審核及修正作業未曾周延完工後效益指標未達原定目標獲得交通補助經費是地方政府連續多年考評成績不佳交通施工品質及完成後的效益欠佳影響整體計畫目標自達成"},{"start":7568.021,"end":7592.13,"text":"必須檢討改善這是審計部說的那審計部更舉了許多的例子像是你沒有落實審查或審查作業未經嚴謹導致部分的補助計劃核定之後地方機關的提報是做項目卻不是我們補助的項目的範圍如果這樣都可以補助代表我們中央的省的非常的善慢那還有對於我們部分的地方機關填報補助計劃"},{"start":7594.517,"end":7603.682,"text":"他完工之後的效益指標明明就沒有達到預期的目標中央也沒有督促檢討原因就給予他審核同意結案"},{"start":7605.367,"end":7626.025,"text":"這個對於連續多年數區道路的養護品質考核不佳的地方機關你有沒有作為之後我們來申請補助計畫的審核標準甚至還給予更多的經費來補助我想請問這樣子如何有效的督促我們地方機關來改善那而且地方機關考核成績不佳的原因主要是因為交通"},{"start":7627.006,"end":7644.546,"text":"工程的施工品質還有完成後效益有待改善等等這個部分中央也沒有督促針對問題的正確點做通盤的檢討我想這樣要怎麼樣來發揮補助的成效我想每一分的預算都是人民的納稅錢這個代表中央也要好好"},{"start":7645.647,"end":7666.545,"text":"來督促這件事因為你沒有做好這件事代表你們沒有好好的善用人民的納稅錢我想不只如此去年12月10號監察院的林聖峰等監委也有提出報告他發現國土組的生活區的道路既有補助計畫他這個計畫主要是以建設改善市區道路為主人行空間改善為輔"},{"start":7668.606,"end":7691.505,"text":"這個對於我們人行道路設計的改善的優先順序缺乏通盤的這個整體性的規劃機制任由各縣市自行來提補住案希望國土署能夠來改善這個是我們經常願提出的我想因此今天的預算解凍案我就希望內政部國土署及相關部會可以針對這些缺失好好的來審視自己"},{"start":7692.225,"end":7707.769,"text":"跟國人報告我們要怎麼改進而不是說自己做得有多好我本席絕對支持市區大陸品質改善以及友善人行環境的提升那對於報告中提出檢討的事項也希望內政部能夠盡快來做到要針對審計部跟檢察院的意見盡速來改善"},{"start":7709.85,"end":7730.451,"text":"我想今天的專案報告是一個好的開始我們再次呼籲我們劉部長好好的負起責任請內政部所屬機關盡快的來解凍報告我們儘速審議 儘速的來執行那以上本席的資訊到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝黃建斌委員我們休息五分鐘不用說明喔"},{"start":8190.936,"end":8196.459,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會那接下來請劉許廷委員質詢謝謝主席啊這內政部跟國土署有請我們請內政部長還有國土署的首長趙偉豪部長這個早安啊"},{"start":8215.72,"end":8242.333,"text":"這個今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係但其實每一個題目凍結都是監督的延伸所以我們希望透過這樣的東西來做一下政策對話今天本期的質詢有兩個重點第一個我們探討一下你未來這個生活圈的道路補助的一些用法跟未來因應也許財化法等等上路之後要不要做一些檢討我們可以先進行一些政策討論第二部分我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部來請教一下相關的一些規範好"},{"start":8245.25,"end":8268.035,"text":"第一個我們有看這大部分的生活圈的道路系統建設計畫就本席的了解這個計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府各個地方政府針對這個轄內的市區道路做打通也好或者是新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫當然就是希望改善各個城市內部的交通路網的完整性"},{"start":8269.076,"end":8287.154,"text":"那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對"},{"start":8291.138,"end":8306.882,"text":"那換言之一定會排擠到中央的預算也一定涉及到市權的調整這本席充分的理解那我希望跟內政部來做一下討論啦就是說我們國土組現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實直接下給地方政府但是你如果財化法之後各個地方政府的經費是增加的"},{"start":8307.423,"end":8327.552,"text":"對不對那增加的時候那當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助所以我今天要討論的是市權的調整的部分我現在要請教我們的部長請教我們署長的地方是說我們現在有除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外針對跨域的道路啊"},{"start":8328.552,"end":8349.384,"text":"這個中央政府有沒有特別的想法我舉一個例子比如說我龜山一個非常大家期待的一個建設這是我們龜山的大平頂地區有一個瘦山路就從我們龜山的平頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區這其實是一個上班族通勤每天都會塞車的那以前因為龜山的地勢嘛因為有山路的關係所以很狹窄上下班的時候難免塞車嘛"},{"start":8350.024,"end":8376.935,"text":"那加上這邊的A7重化區 很多的鄉親搬進來那當然都希望交通可以再改善那這件事情 桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商好 可是問題來了從桃園的角度 很多人要來長庚醫院來華亞科上班我這邊的住戶也變多了可是從新北的角度 它不見得有助於對新北的這個交通需求來講 它就沒有很大就變成說常常這種跨縣市的道路建設常常有這種 有一個很想做 有一個不太想做"},{"start":8377.415,"end":8402.228,"text":"那這個東西如果兩邊沒有達成共識他其實工程就進行延宕的一個狀態像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念嘛我就進行拓寬然後進行環形高架這當然就有大建設但請問這樣子的一個建設除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外中央有沒有角色可以報告一下因為過去的確在指引跨縣市的時候那如果同屬生活圈的部分大概都會"},{"start":8402.813,"end":8431.361,"text":"也一定會有這個協調啦跨部會因為尤其像這種跨縣市的很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法那這是第一個第二個就是說這也涉及到經費分配的原則啦所以加上如果未來加上財化法這樣的一個方式那很可能在以後的這個第一個是市權第二個是財化法以後整個經費分配那更需要跨縣市跟跨部會"},{"start":8432.168,"end":8451.821,"text":"來做一個整理 像這個案子應該也是其中的一個會遇到的一個案子我覺得我今天提的概念是這樣你現行生活權你講五年要兩百多億嘛對不對每年數十億的這樣一個經費你都是補助各縣政府在縣市內的嘛城市內的道路嘛對不對那這個東西一定會降下來嘛因為我如果財化法我要允一部分出去撥給地方政府對不對"},{"start":8452.261,"end":8477.153,"text":"但你也不會全部歸零嘛我想應該不至於會全部歸零你中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費本身就建議嘛就是說如果未來財務法上路之後我地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了他城市內部的道路他當然就自己要負責的比例就更高那相對來講你中央的餅雖然變小了我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯也就是說我中央可以調度之後我就要以資源跨域的為主嘛"},{"start":8477.433,"end":8486.467,"text":"就以資源跨域跨域的建設為主嘛像這樣有些比如桃園想做新北不要那麼想中央來多幫忙是不是就降低這件事情這個成功的門檻"},{"start":8487.455,"end":8513.785,"text":"那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題"},{"start":8515.265,"end":8537.844,"text":"它不單純是經費的問題是地理條件的問題像這條壽山路大概我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過那它也是覺得因為在它的這個範圍內執行商還要再拓寬的話以現有的地理條件是相對是困難度很高的所以它大概意願度是比較低所以它需要比較多的跨部會跟跨縣市的協調"},{"start":8539.265,"end":8561.148,"text":"我想這才是在如果未來要做這件事的話那像我們之前協調這一個和美大橋那就是從台中到彰化那其實就是部會也有協調縣市也有協調他才能有努力的所以那都不單純是經費的問題第四的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力就是因為比如說我要上下山或你剛剛講和美大橋我要跨越河流他的經費"},{"start":8562.189,"end":8579.325,"text":"經費是高的嘛所以對於縣政府壓力是大的我才講嘛所以這種跨域的不好處理的你中央要多補助一點嘛我覺得這樣子比較合理也比較公平那各城市內部的未來就是有財務法之後來處理這是本期的一個政策建議不只是這個壽山路的拓寬比如說這個湖山街從我們的這個"},{"start":8580.766,"end":8604.711,"text":"龜山的這個兔坑大兔坑地區 銜接到英哥其實也是同樣的道理就因為跨越了縣市的界限但是沒辦法做這我想部長也好署長也好都了解全國各地不只是桃園其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路我希望 因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分嘛對不對其實都有也是有 但是相對來講你如果全部都要照顧的話你一定是增多周少嘛"},{"start":8605.071,"end":8626.031,"text":"對不對未來就調整的時候我希望看到內政部跟國土組在政策上面稍微做一下思考怎麼樣在跨域的這樣子的建設上面加大補助的力道讓這些東西可以落地我想這是中央很好的成績啦這是本席的藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下會後用書面來回覆一下可行性可以嗎了解"},{"start":8627.588,"end":8650.093,"text":"好 謝謝第二個本期要關注的也叫做道路的品質的部分因為你們這個裡面大概三件事情嘛其中有一段是道路品質的部分很多人都講啊就是說這個路平其實明明就是一個很基本的東西那為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過中央地方都換過怎麼還是搞不定呢這個希望花一點時間來請教一下這個我們內政部現在齁現在齁這個"},{"start":8652.313,"end":8666.89,"text":"道路品質的問題很多時候都講我們其實都有編列這個重新跑舖的預算嘛然後我們在重新跑舖的時候也都會把品質做好這個我倒覺得問題比較小但只有一個問題是你不可能全台灣的道路都重新跑舖嘛所以一定會有中間的過渡期"},{"start":8667.19,"end":8682.126,"text":"那加上什麼管線啊 開挖等等所以真正會造成各地的路不平的問題其實都是有管線工程然後它中間在等待重新跑舖過程中叫做假修復嘛也就是說施工單位先行進行修復的這樣一個狀況好 問題來了假修復就會出事啊比如說這條文化一路這個變成越野賽道"},{"start":8689.133,"end":8714.194,"text":"一邊融起來一邊凹下去那其實非常危險那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛對不對我想請問的是如果假修復的品質不好現在除了各縣市政府當然我們桃園養工處去開一個罰單除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外中央有沒有一套比如說針對假修復的品質有一套完整的規範然後針對沒有辦法做到的有沒有一些懲罰的機制是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明"},{"start":8716.047,"end":8737.239,"text":"說明一下因為這一個所謂的一個道路管挖修補或者是說在相關的這個建案他必須要接管他必須要做這個相關的挖路在鋪其實在各縣市的這屬於養護的部分各縣市其實都有訂定相關的跑鋪的一個處理的機制那我們在"},{"start":8737.899,"end":8749.934,"text":"但是因為他是屬於他不屬於這個條例他不屬於法令所以大概都是用注意事項或者是說在這個復原的部分我准不准許你在我這個做驗收"},{"start":8752.065,"end":8767.767,"text":"最常出現大概第一個就是說我的回填品質不佳對這是第一個大問題回填品質不佳那往往就是回填的集配料裡面品質不好那或是說我回填的時候我這個水泥的灌漿的部分也沒有做好那這是第二個"},{"start":8768.268,"end":8789.242,"text":"那但是關鍵是在於說他在整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責第二個我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的標準那這樣他才有懲罰的依據否則我們目前知道大多數他是沒有所謂的處罰那因為你有相關的處罰或沒收相關的這個"},{"start":8791.003,"end":8815.749,"text":"保證金或相關的那對於這個包商他才會有他才會有這樣的一個約束力這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的這個部分把它位階提升或許會比較好好我覺得署長今天這個回答非常的具體可以當一回事來處理就是說因為這個道路假修復品質不佳的狀況其實到處都是道路補丁鋪得不好然後造成一大堆的爭議等等"},{"start":8816.449,"end":8831.719,"text":"那現有的力道是不足夠的我剛剛其實有看到這個包含當初解凍的理由都在講就是說有關於一些道路的品質啊路夠不夠平啊修復的品質好不好等等其實都是它其實也可以被列為補助的參考我覺得這種東西不過我跟委員報告一下因為我們當時"},{"start":8833.18,"end":8862.014,"text":"尤其提升道路品質我們要看的是那一種長期年久失修的年久失修那一個才是因為我們是有整段道路的PCI的這個指數在做一個你既有的標準這我理解因為我看你的書面回覆其實寫得很清楚也就是說其實品質越不好其實表示跟地方政府財務等等他更需要中央的支持這一點我完全同意但我希望未來你把假修復的品質我只是針對假修復這件事情也就是說我有開挖我有請其他人等等然後他假修復修得很爛的"},{"start":8862.674,"end":8882.849,"text":"你要有一些處罰的機制它可以是你中央召集各個縣市政府來作為比如說位階的提升啊或者是標準的修正或者是你可以善用你補助的這個額度把它納入一定的KPI或者是核定的辦法我覺得這是可以思考的方向這種東西不分縣市的因為這種東西一定要做好跟大家的生活品質有關啦好不好 是不是針對這一部分我們一樣來研究一下我說明一下好了就是說"},{"start":8886.551,"end":8899.982,"text":"大概以中央來講大概第一個就是說我們是可以針對相關的國營事業就管線單位我們大概年度都有做一些檢討那這個部分是我們可以來做但是因為相關的這一個養護的一個標準跟這個條例的訂定"},{"start":8903.206,"end":8932.752,"text":"那這個我們是來督促地方政府來訂定這並不是說中央自己單獨立法我理解 我的意思是說你可以召集縣市政府來商量嘛然後大家標準 要說明一下因為其實省紀部他當時的報告當然以我們來講啦以我們來講我們會覺得大概對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平非六都的條件本來就差那所以即使我做了一些補助他也不可能快速的提供當然不能以這樣的理由 又說他的交通條件不好"},{"start":8933.311,"end":8962.294,"text":"那表示執行不佳其實這有點雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題這個其實我覺得所以我才講重點只有假修復嘛因為假修復大家都有所以我才會跟網友報告說這就是為什麼您當時在提這一件事情說要來提這個專案報告我們也會覺得怪怪的但是其實我想都是尊重大家否則以我們來講我們會覺得原來的這個內容就寫得很奇怪了原來的內容就是寫得很奇怪的東西這個提案的內容都會可受公平這個是大家都已經知道的事情這一段時間了好 等一下但是"},{"start":8963.094,"end":8975.681,"text":"該走的程序都走而且其實喔藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討我覺得對大家來講也不是一件壞事部長要補充說明嗎您剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分那個其實有一些縣市地方政府他們會透過議會來制定這個單制條例"},{"start":8979.284,"end":8990.655,"text":"這種單行法規它的約束力才會比較強所以我們譬如說以我們以前高雄市在處理的時候就是你新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了不到一個月就開始要有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓那其實你只要道路的品質有一條開始破壞掉其他就完全破壞掉"},{"start":8999.023,"end":9017.812,"text":"那所以透過養護的這個單位呢它在地方縣市政府的執行率比較強其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府尤其是非六都的部分它如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制可以開挖的單位呢它一定在一定的法定時間或一定的品質的狀況之下才能夠確保否則中央如果幫忙他們的話只會像剛剛署長所說的因為你本來就不好了"},{"start":9024.155,"end":9041.658,"text":"然後就要開挖越多然後修復越多那就變成是一個惡性循環那道路的品質就不好就會被審計部然後有告訴我們說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點所以其實這是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的好 謝謝部長的補充說明其實我的概念也是這樣就是說你有什麼樣的方式可以召集可以鼓勵嘛"},{"start":9042.259,"end":9057.056,"text":"比如說我願意做單行法規然後加強管束的我又覺得補助的時候優先性高一點我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事當然我會給你空間因為我們想把問題點出來我一定要給你行政機關一點時間去溝通去嘗試然後我們再來檢視成效啦好但這個假修復的問題如果可以在"},{"start":9058.177,"end":9075.593,"text":"這個我們這次政府的任內有一個很好的升級對於地方政府中央怎麼都會加分啊所以今天本期提兩個第一個是未來的道路圈的補助希望多增加跨越的部分第二個針對道路假修復的品質要求希望我們的政府大家中央跟地方都要再更積極一點希望我們國務署也好 內政部也好把這次當一回事來辦好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":9089.602,"end":9093.745,"text":"他們換了嗎好好 下一位我們請吳啟平委員質詢好 主席我們與會同仁請郭突署我們的署長吳署長有請委員好"},{"start":9114.278,"end":9137.282,"text":"好 市長好 今天針對我們生活圈的道路交通系統的建設計畫本席也比較關心的就是人行道的問題那我在這邊我要首先來肯定我們國土署因為在我的選區 不管是土城 山峽所有的人行道的一個大改變"},{"start":9138.523,"end":9166.501,"text":"連市長到土城他也說去經營記者會記者會這個中央路整條道路的人行道都全部都更新這是我們所有的市民最有感然後三峽包括我們三峽的老街的周邊人行道我們也都一併的去把它做改善那你這個經費還是非常龐大光是土城中央路"},{"start":9167.406,"end":9195.912,"text":"就兩億六千多萬還有你三峽還有我們的周邊的生活生活圈都是真的做了非常的多啦所以我在這邊喔我也要再次的肯定我們國土署在這幾年真的為我們整個社會做一大的改變那你看一些校園校園的周邊周邊的人行道的一大的改變的安全行走"},{"start":9196.485,"end":9206.17,"text":"那我本席比較關心的就是針對我們去年我們的永續提升行人安全計劃113年至116年4年編了400億那未來這個經費會不會因為砍了預算凍結的預算會不會造成排擠"},{"start":9217.915,"end":9246.407,"text":"我請署長來做說明報告一下就是說永續的部分其實他在目前來講我們還是持續的在受理審核受理審核其實現在也是在等最後的這個院的這邊因為他有通山的部分還沒有做一個確認所以我們現在到目前是持續受理案件但是審核的部分我們就先審但是要等最後的結果才能再做核定"},{"start":9246.809,"end":9269.966,"text":"那去年度的部分照樣執行的部分因為他有去年的預算那所以這個部分會照常來執行那但是接下來就要看這一個後續的這一個解凍的部分那另外一個還就是財化法的部分如果財化法最後通過那最後通過要我們做重新做預算的一個修正的話那這部分我們也會再找幾地方重新來討論預算分配的問題"},{"start":9272.537,"end":9295.909,"text":"謝謝,謝謝署長的說明其實你說在這幾年,真的我們國土署預祝到我們地方的建設經費真的是非常多我光是我的選區啦,主席光是我的選區喔你看啦,國土署不管是人行道的改善,還有道路的改善真的這幾年我們都還是很肯定"},{"start":9297.114,"end":9311.104,"text":"所以在這我也在此跟署長研究就針對我們三峽有一個N3隧道那新北市他們也要提出計劃但是N3隧道已經會到72億那N3隧道要是打通的話可以改觀到說我們三峽老街太扯的問題"},{"start":9319.99,"end":9323.592,"text":"所以這也在我們生活圈裡面是不是說在這個部分我們要怎麼來在我們中央我也知道現在政府都要勤奮但是在我們的先前起步"},{"start":9333.547,"end":9356.742,"text":"的部分要怎麼說來來配合新北市不管說整個的隧道的設計經費啦還是我們未來要推動你可以分一二三期多無所謂只要有推動對我們我們的地方他的交通不然你說在老街我們車路你今天就沒辦法走這裡可以說徹底來改觀這個地方的我們的交通網順暢是嗎現在署長說明"},{"start":9363.788,"end":9367.804,"text":"可是這條路這條路其實是另外一個解決三峽"},{"start":9370.069,"end":9397.66,"text":"其實地區假日這種擁塞很重要的一條路那因為他也分了三段這三段加起來總經費其實很龐大大概有將近70億的這個預算那所以這個部分其實第一個經費龐大 第二個就是說他出來銜接的這個道路的這個路段那這個當然新北市政府還必須要跟高工局再協商清楚因為他穿過的這個部分到底要走哪條路線因為我們到目前還不確定"},{"start":9398.462,"end":9417.392,"text":"那但是我們其實之前委員這邊也有關心新北市政府也有來文有來函表示說他們未來想要增設這一個部分那我們也是請他先跟高工舉先協商好確認那個路線那不過因為確認路線他同時也要做環評他同時也要做環評所以他的關鍵還要等環評"},{"start":9418.926,"end":9440.664,"text":"進行了以後都市計畫會送過來那我們協助他做相關的變更以後那就會再把這個完整的計畫書再提交給我們我想這部分我們跟新北市政府這邊都會注意這個進度就會把它實施成我們在行政上能先配合我們會先配合他來進行好 謝謝署長這樣我可以徹底解決塞車的問題"},{"start":9442.926,"end":9459.857,"text":"再來一點就是我們上上個禮拜我們到土城的司法園區去會堪那我們那個森林公園森林公園那一個也是我們新北市最大的公園那未來因為停車的問題我們一定要納入停車問題公園那麼大那你停車不方便"},{"start":9467.362,"end":9488.178,"text":"也會造成整個交通的紛亂尤其是未來我們地方法院地檢署都在那邊跟看守所所以你的停車的配置我們還是要注意一下要跟新北市大家要怎麼配合這個停車可以來做改觀是啊 因為相關件就是說我們現在都市界已經過了"},{"start":9493.899,"end":9519.931,"text":"工廠在做現在如果要增加這個停車場的部分可能就是這個污水處理場用地因為之前新北市政府曾經表達過說可能暫時需要性不高那我們我想這我們有請土叢處地政司跟土叢處這邊再跟新北市政府再做確認如果那一塊污水處理場的確未來在他整個的污水下水道系統裡面不需要留這塊地的話那而且但是呢大家對於這個"},{"start":9521.058,"end":9540.079,"text":"公園的需求又大那或許依照順著地形現在就可以做一個地下停車場然後上面再做這一個公園那這樣大概對於呃民眾的需求大概一件二個啦都夠得到啊還可以包括去森林公園前面停車方便啊所以這部分呃我想放"},{"start":9541.141,"end":9568.27,"text":"近期大概部裡面跟新北市政府如果協商確認的話我想就可以照委員的這個就照這個方式來進行那到時候我們也會請新北市政府再積極跟交通部或相關的單位再爭取看有沒有相關的停車場的興建經費那上面我們再用這個重劃的用區段徵收的工程經費再去幫他施作這樣的一個公園綠地那這樣我想都可以解決委員所提到的這個停車場的一個問題"},{"start":9570.267,"end":9594.225,"text":"好謝謝謝謝署長好謝謝署長的答覆好謝謝感謝謝謝好謝謝吳啓平委員下一位我們請洪孟楷委員質詢好主持謝謝麻煩請我們交通部公路局副局長公路局副局長有請"},{"start":9600.923,"end":9614.951,"text":"來副議長本期間特別感謝曹偉排這個市區道路品質改善計畫不管是內政部不管是交通部這兩大部會其實都對於市區道路有非常重要的責任那"},{"start":9615.967,"end":9641.103,"text":"我先讓你看一下這個在上個月就是我們淡水地區關渡大橋關渡大橋因為砂石車而造成急刹而造成整個泥漿翻覆那一天剛好是禮拜五的下午所以說那一天真的道路非常的庸塞關渡大橋我想副局長應該很了解吧是它是交通量可能是最大的一條一個橋墩對不對那在"},{"start":9641.567,"end":9660.842,"text":"淡江大橋今年年底完工之前其實都還是大家認為是說關渡大橋他的這個交通量非常需要來立即改善我先請教因為我們看到這樣的一個新聞當然那一天立即有做處理不管是地方的警察或者是我們相關的公務同仁那有沒有釐清到底這個肇事責任以及對後續這個駕駛的球場"},{"start":9664.397,"end":9688.052,"text":"公務員報告因為這個案子是我們公務隊在處理所以我這邊沒有了解但是這個依照規定的部分還是就是我們會去追究如果是因為是砂石車的部分我們還是會去追究砂石車的有公共危險相關的法律責任嘛對不對好那本席才看喔我們去打大型砂石車擊殺泥漿翻覆"},{"start":9690.774,"end":9705.492,"text":"發覺這不是特例這其實蠻常出現的我隨便搜尋一下2023年5月土石噴一地五股交流道前2025年3月砂石車擊殺害4名騎士慘摔跌還有"},{"start":9709.641,"end":9734.312,"text":"剛剛我們吳清明委員所關心的土城也有大型砂石車擊殺還有中壢2024年9月所以大型砂石車不管是擊殺而造成這樣子的一個道路整個的狀況甚至造成後面用路人的一個危險那我想請教不管是公路局不管是相關單位我們有沒有針對這個部分可以來做更進一步的管制或是檢討"},{"start":9735.014,"end":9761.168,"text":"跟委員報告就是就法令規定的部分讓他罰處罰這個是一定要的然後賠償一定要的但是假設就是說我們現在討論是防範未來的部分我要講的就是說我們會針對他的肇事資料是哪家貨運公司造成所以如果他一定期間超過幾件的時候我們就開始去跟"},{"start":9762.569,"end":9777.385,"text":"我們監理當然就是直接找混公室直接訪查做教育訓練做處理的是這也是本席想要了解跟本席想的就是說有可能這些是累犯對因為一般來講通常會發生這個狀況有可能是超債"},{"start":9778.266,"end":9792.966,"text":"有可能他就是債比較多然後他沒有保持適當的安全距離或者是說他讓前面的摩托車或是汽車來擊殺所以累犯的部分我們有所謂的不要說黑名單啦但我們有所謂的這個警示資料有管制有統計那目前"},{"start":9794.795,"end":9820.89,"text":"比較常肇事的我們有哪些掌握資料我們業者我當然不能我還要再查但是就是比如說像台二線剛剛委員談到的有幾個快速到位尤其進出的時候會造成尤其是超速跟超債歡呼的這個最多所以我們都有在管制而且我們都有在注意尤其是業者的部分我們去做輔導"},{"start":9822.748,"end":9848.539,"text":"然後做教育訓練這個部副議長這個私下請提供這本席相關資料就是說我們怎麼樣協助業者輔導管制以及真真正正這種黑名單的部分當然如果說真的是交通意外沒有辦法避免但是如果說是有某些業者他特別警示或常出現這樣的一個狀況當然行政機關應該要介入來那另外喔"},{"start":9849.079,"end":9865.288,"text":"淡江關渡大橋確實是非常嚴重那我們之前現在新北市府也在做這個所謂的淡北道路那我們也有在提出說要有關渡新橋的規劃那我想請教副市長淡江大橋管理單位是誰"},{"start":9866.584,"end":9877.199,"text":"丹山大橋未來管理單位是我們公路局公路局是關渡大橋管理單位是誰我們也是我們公路局也是公路局是那關渡新橋未來管理單位或是施工計畫建設是誰"},{"start":9880.295,"end":9906.822,"text":"這個目前應該是未來應該會納到市區道路那其實它道路定位要看新北市政府未來的規劃的定位才能決定那現在關渡新橋到底是由誰因為很多民眾也在期待啊是目前在新北市政府在辦理可行性評估當中新北市府辦理可行性評估是好可是另外一點喔副議長這個中央地方應該是一體共同同心來去做尤其是"},{"start":9907.842,"end":9936.873,"text":"北海岸地區我想你不否認淡水現在人口越來越成長巴黎也越來越多人口成長那但關渡大橋的使用量也是全台最大嘛那關渡新橋連接淡水這一端台二線是管理機關是誰台二線目前管理機關也是我們公路局那關渡新橋連接到巴黎端大家也期待是說他能夠連接到64線64線管理單位是誰也是公路局那你會不會覺得很奇怪"},{"start":9939.615,"end":9965.832,"text":"我今天三座橋淡江大橋是公路局關渡大橋是公路局結果我要新做關渡新橋結果是要新北市政府那關渡新橋淡水端這邊連接的道路是公路局巴黎端這邊連接的道路64線也是公路局結果我中間的橋樑是要新北市府那未來如果做起來的話那變成是特立獨行欸"},{"start":9967.253,"end":9993.498,"text":"淡江大橋 關渡大橋是公路局管但是關渡新橋是新北市府那連接兩邊公路局管中間這段橋樑是新北市府所以 局長 副局長我現在先提出來 當然過去有很多的 不管是說我們那時候爭取淡北聯外道路的時候行政部門也是遲遲沒有拍板定案 到最後才拍板那也已經晚了兩三年的時間"},{"start":9994.338,"end":10011.397,"text":"那但是我們現在期待的是關渡新橋趕快來施作那是不是能夠再跟新北市府來共同討論到底現在可行民工做完之後施工團隊計畫發包等等以及後來的維護管理我覺得這應該一比一討論吧"},{"start":10012.478,"end":10035.751,"text":"跟委員報告這個是我們一直跟新北市政府都有在討論新北市政府他針對淡水和兩岸的道路的規劃其實他是整體的整個範圍在做處理的所以他不是主管我們的省道在處理因為整個我們省道是主幹但是其實車流都是區域性"},{"start":10036.891,"end":10062.903,"text":"所以他整體的交通的路網怎麼建過是我們是要跟新北市政府一起來討論我們現在就講我當然是要講是一個更上位的計畫要怎麼樣來去做運輸管理因為我們不能只建零不建山只建樹不建林所以我現在在討論的我現在在提出來是說第一什麼時候新北市府可行性評估現在是新北市府這邊公務處要來做報那之後也會報給公務局"},{"start":10066.525,"end":10085.539,"text":"也會報交通部審核到目前為止還沒有已經過了兩年了那是不是能夠關心一下因為2022年就核定的計畫嘛那時候就蘇貞昌院長還來到我們那邊拍板說淡北道路然後另外那時候也宣布說要關渡新橋嘛但我真的不希望說我們中央部會到最後只變成是"},{"start":10088.666,"end":10108.455,"text":"補貼出錢的單位 而中間的管理維護變成是跟地方兩個 講好聽點是各自負責 這樣講不好聽點就互踢皮球啊副局長 這個是不是能夠 我知道委員的意思啦 你剛剛把層級拉高當然 因為淡江大橋是公路局 關渡大橋是公路局沒有道理關渡新橋"},{"start":10110.601,"end":10129.55,"text":"這樣一級吧根本沒辦法 因為關路新橋是接淡北道路市政府管的那他未來要接到底是接台六市還是要應該未來還是接台六市啦所以需要溝通嘛 是兩邊的銜接也是公路局好不好"},{"start":10130.711,"end":10144.996,"text":"副議長什麼時候能夠比較明確跟新北市府討論針對關渡新橋的部分他也給本市一個後續的追蹤報告他還在其中報告還沒出來那我們會再催促新北市政府加速趕快來處理"},{"start":10145.856,"end":10173.519,"text":"後續是不是也請給本席相關資料你們怎麼跟新北市府那新北市府現在的一個狀況我們一起共同再來這個是一個起點但是本席會持續追關渡新橋也是我們當地民眾非常期待不要說淡江大橋當然很期待但是淡江大橋也蠻久時間了那年底會完工本席也期待是說我們現在討論關渡新橋不要也拖那麼久時間我們一起來努力好嗎謝謝"},{"start":10176.038,"end":10188.154,"text":"好 謝謝侯孟愷委員的質詢 下一位我們請丁薛忠委員丁薛忠委員改書面那我們下一位請徐宇貞委員質詢"},{"start":10201.249,"end":10204.919,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟郭圖書 吳興修署長劉部長 吳署長有請"},{"start":10210.855,"end":10230.006,"text":"委員好部長好我想請教部長就是目前國土署在辦理道路改善有三項計畫正在進行那目前國土署執行情況也良好而且地方鄉鎮市公所也都給予高度的評價那現在還有幾個問題要請教部長跟署長就是關於經費補助的問題"},{"start":10231.767,"end":10244.265,"text":"因為114年的總預算總統已經公布了那立法院針對地方補助經費沒有三減也沒有凍結那為什麼現在補助的經費遲遲無法撥付給地方政府"},{"start":10245.273,"end":10248.136,"text":"報告委員是這樣子就是說在我們3月21的時候呢是確實是總統公布所謂的114年的這個相關的預算但是這裡面有一項我所瞭解就是說至暗難行的部分在於說原來啊"},{"start":10263.81,"end":10282.297,"text":"一共有通山303億的部分我們已經處理好但是有一個就是行政院立法院要求行政院去自行去解決什麼叫山洞的部分有600多億那600多億的這個預算呢目前行政院跟立法院好像還沒有溝通好所以我們對最像是有一定的但是我現在的問題是說我們對於地方政府的補助經費也沒有刪減也沒有凍結那為什麼這個部分沒有辦法"},{"start":10292.2,"end":10301.969,"text":"報告委員按照預算在執行的過程當中如果你已經是過去在長久執行的預算正在執行當中的話呢在我們的預算的這個撥補方面比較沒有問題新增預算的話就會有這個問題"},{"start":10311.756,"end":10341.236,"text":"有些是業務費的部分也是被凍掉那是不是可以請市長說明一下好了因為如果說是執行中的案子就是生活圈跟這個永續的部分執行中的案子大概都沒有問題那這是新增的提案的部分就是新增提案的部分那就是因為這個院還沒有做最後的確認的話我們也不確定但是我們審查還是維持有審查那也就是說不是新增的部分你們應該經費都要撥下去了是嗎"},{"start":10341.926,"end":10367.916,"text":"就是執行中的部分比較沒有問題執行中的唯有問題是所以你現在提的是指說還有286案還待核定的這些案件嗎我說明一下前瞻的部分就完全沒有辦法因為前瞻沒有通過前瞻沒有通過所以前瞻的部分是完全我想請一下署長就是說前四次這是第五期嘛前四次四期的這個前瞻計畫你們也常常是遇到先核定"},{"start":10368.516,"end":10395.967,"text":"之後然後經費才通過才撥補下去的有這種狀況吧我說明一下好了因為如果說現在前瞻是因為這一期完全沒有到目前完全沒有通過所以我們審查完以後也有核定但是我們就現在告訴他因為預算完全請問一下署長過去四期有沒有這種狀況就是我們的前瞻的預算都還沒審查完我們就已經有這個公告合定然後只是等經費下來再撥補下去我說明一下好了"},{"start":10396.847,"end":10424.694,"text":"次期的過去的前瞻有凍結但是都是書面報告而且我們都在1月份就直接提解凍書面書面只要送過來就解決了那現在為什麼不提呢現在第一個這是專案報告第二個就是說就像剛剛部長所提到的因為院還有這一個部分但是前瞻是完全沒有提啊前瞻是在立法院完全沒有排案"},{"start":10426.815,"end":10432.08,"text":"不是總預算好那這個部分的話只要立法院有排案的話你們就可以馬上來處理嗎預算沒有三讀前瞻預算沒有三讀對那以往前四期我知道有遇到這樣的一個狀況所以前瞻預算沒有三讀就我們馬上排案的話就馬上可以來處理是這樣嗎"},{"start":10447.082,"end":10474.83,"text":"那就要看大院的這個部分那針對這個部分的話我想請教一下就是說因為其實提升道路品質的計畫今年就要屆滿嘛那地方公所人家有改善這個道路品質的需求那所以請問一下這個時候115年的預算正在進行籌編能不能有新的計畫繼續推動沒有因為前瞻就到今年就結束了但是前瞻結束之後未來的這些道路品質改善計畫這些的"},{"start":10476.915,"end":10497.986,"text":"這相關的工程那應該是要有什麼樣子的一個方式能夠持續來進行因為它原來就是特別預算在公務預算的原來的編列裡面這個本來就是屬於地方的權責我剛剛講的是115年現在在編列預算嘛那所以你們是不是有應該要提出這樣相關的預算我說明一下就是原來在公務預算的認定裡面"},{"start":10499.557,"end":10507.868,"text":"提升道路品質也就是道路的重新跑鋪是屬於地方的全責如果沒有特別預算的話公務預算在過去在編列的時候他是不同意的"},{"start":10508.573,"end":10538.199,"text":"那所以你現在的意思就是說只要地方的預算不足的話你們還是可以編列公務預算來去做這樣的沒有就是公務預算裡面因為這是屬於地方的權責所以這個部分在公務預算裡面也就是說現在我們的財化法通過之後那當地方有經費的時候就可以用這筆錢來去做那也是地方政府要自行自行那就是說現在早到這個今年結束之後有關的品質改善計畫就跟國土署沒有關係了是嗎不是是因為我們就沒有就不會再編列了"},{"start":10538.499,"end":10560.273,"text":"對 那如果有需要編列你們會不會編列有需要也是要院這邊因為主計單 主計處的 主計中處的就是有需要你們應該也要提出請主計處這邊看是不是能夠整個預算的通盤檢討嘛 是這樣嗎不過因為現在遇到財化法也遇到這樣的問題那就是事權分工的問題嘛 大家可以來好好的討論一下要重新再討論"},{"start":10561.053,"end":10582.54,"text":"那另外這個想請教一下部長就是你最近全台跑透透參加這個人民事頭家的活動那因為您發言的內容其中參雜的一些我們可以先看一下影片那個聲音好嗎"},{"start":10589.454,"end":10591.478,"text":"可以暫停一下嗎沒有聲音"},{"start":10602.746,"end":10604.228,"text":"這個聲音可以弄出來嗎"},{"start":10638.515,"end":10644.642,"text":"等一下 已經有車聲了因為早上有事故"},{"start":10649.022,"end":10664.58,"text":"好部長您在這個影片當中提到的就是說我們砍了200億的這個預算喔導致75萬的出戶族領不到補貼喔請問一下我們有哪一個提案砍掉內政部200"},{"start":10665.942,"end":10684.7,"text":"報告委員我對於裡面講說公然造謠說謊是完全否認的我跟委員再重新講一次你給我一分鐘的時間第一個我們在今年有送到行政院所謂的300億中央擴大租金補貼住宅補助等這些部分送到行政院要求行政院給我們撥補總數總數是400億的相關的部分"},{"start":10688.704,"end":10698.393,"text":"那但是呢在住宅基金裡面呢有一項就是如果他要新撥補200億的話需要行政院的中央政府總預算通過才能撥補給我們那這個部分呢在行政院包括我們的院長他在同樣多次的這個演講裡面也提到這裡面有一個"},{"start":10708.482,"end":10721.261,"text":"總預算可不可以比去年多中央政府總預算增加2806億的時候有一個擴大租金補貼的新建設宅就是200億我現在所指的這個部分但是呢因為有一些委員請問是國民黨還是民眾黨把他砍掉的嗎"},{"start":10723.985,"end":10729.128,"text":"我們在那個最後在立法院院會的時候是這樣子舉手通過的行政院的114年度的總預算您再給我一點時間然後再來就是很多人把我們自己在國土署裡面的部分引用的是台灣民眾黨的那個10%然後3%變成41.4億所以兩個黨團裡面所說的部分是指國土署的那個部分"},{"start":10751.34,"end":10763.91,"text":"跟我所說的這個200億的這個租金補貼是屬於新要放到我們的內政部裡面來做的住宅基金是不一樣的所以呢我不清楚說為什麼有一些委員呢沒有清楚在所有所講的狀況之下剛剛的影片部長應該有提到剛剛的影片你有提到就是會影響75萬租戶是"},{"start":10773.704,"end":10785.172,"text":"報告委員原來在上一年度的時候我們的租金補貼是50萬戶但是我們後來在跟行政院要求的時候就是我們的預估可能會達到75萬戶所以現在所說的200億是從這個75萬戶裡面的比例在往前推的好那請問一下國土府那邊我們針對剛剛講的這個400億中凍結10%的這個41億的會凍結41億的部分會讓75萬人全數拿不到租金補助嗎"},{"start":10803.385,"end":10831.338,"text":"這就算法上啦就是說因為我們現在變成說每一個月至少要31億到36億之間的數字所以最有可能就是到11月就完全不夠了所以說到11月嘛 是嗎因為你租金補貼是每個月發放的所以到11月 也就是說11月之前你只要提出解凍案就應該沒有這個問題吧也不會讓75萬租戶拿不到吧"},{"start":10832.814,"end":10846.767,"text":"對因為他變成說因為現在還有一個中央政府總預算的這個統三的600多億還沒有確認所以我們現在變成到底他最後能不能給我們這個我們也不知道請問一下這個414億的部分我們這個案子是凍結10%沒錯吧是"},{"start":10849.849,"end":10870.465,"text":"對那所以剛剛你也提到嘛到11月之後可能才會影響影響到12月份的部分那是按照如果說其他都沒有沒有改變的話就是照這個方式對那是不是只要你盡快的提出這個案子的解凍案送到我們這個我們這個委員會來提出解凍的申請我相信我們的招委一定會盡快的排案這個第一個是"},{"start":10871.688,"end":10895.814,"text":"對 程序問題就政院要跟立委這邊 立委院要交辦那所以是行政院的問題囉也不是 就是我們剛剛回到剛剛那一個基本的問題因為還沒有辦法自愛難省通案的部分 剛剛你們提到630幾億的這個通案我們覺得可以先跳過 但是非通案的部分其實就可以先提出報告啦非通案的部分咧"},{"start":10896.554,"end":10924.469,"text":"通刪的部分303億行政院都通刪了但是以這個案子來說我們就凍結百分之十立法院要求就是說有多的636億要行政院自己回去要看你要刪哪裡凍哪裡但是目前為止我們並沒有這樣的一個定案非常致案難行沒有任何一個提出來致案難行的地方大家共同來討論我們也提出來了嘛就是說有什麼致案難行的地方就提到立法院來大家共同來找出解方嘛而不是現在擺爛你知道嗎"},{"start":10925.469,"end":10942.365,"text":"報告徐委員在行政院提出復議案的時候已經把至愛難行跟違憲還有違預算法的部分都已經寫清楚了但是因為表決之後我們還是行政院沒有報通過立法院的這個其實以這個案子啦其實我知道郭平淑都已經在抱怨了其實這個案子早就已經把解封的報告寫好只是"},{"start":10943.846,"end":10972.149,"text":"因為長官請問我們希望說自來水我們還是希望大家趕快為了人民為民生為主啦因為部長我覺得我們還是要以民生為主啦希望這個部分趕快的來去處理能夠解凍就趕快提出來我們的召委都已經提前來做這樣的專案報告就是希望節省時間所以只要你們提出來就是要拜託行政院是不是能夠希望立法院的院會可以體現那是不是請行政院能夠提出好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":10974.882,"end":10998.347,"text":"好 謝謝徐立貞委員我再次跟委員會報告說明啦就其實當然我們理解啦就是說因為你有一個通商的壓力在那個地方所以當然壓力會很大不過我想喔這個我們之前有辦過專案報告的幾個案子包含比如租金補貼的四十幾億嘛對不對還有今天這生活圈其實有一千七百五十萬啦那這些東西其實都跟民生建設是有比較高的關聯性我相信即便在內政部裡面討論的時候你大概也不會優先尊嚴這一部分啦"},{"start":10998.507,"end":11014.44,"text":"所以我想這一部分先行解凍應該是不衝突的我們期待趕快來提案 趕快復委我們早一點把這個程序走完 以上好 下面我們請陳雪生委員質詢陳雪生委員 陳雪生委員不在鍾嘉斌委員請質詢鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在下面我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":11026.628,"end":11046.57,"text":"主席 會委員 有請署長吳署長有請署長好 辛苦了今天內政部的報告裡面特別提到生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫"},{"start":11048.668,"end":11050.81,"text":"總共這個111到113年度已經編列208.68億元歷年達成率達98%以上這個首先第一個還要請這個署長回去以後"},{"start":11066.683,"end":11074.785,"text":"給書面資料補充給我 就是說針對111到113各縣市各縣市的那個核定的一個情形好那這個114年度也是一樣 你這邊已經這個預計辦理92項工程其中工程72件預算達成率預估95%以上"},{"start":11097.493,"end":11123.952,"text":"這個表示你們已經也核定了嘛對不對對就是它是執行中的我知道大多是執行中的114年度喔對對對因為我們這是一個中長期計畫對我知道所以它從開始核到用地取得到好幾年包括114年度也提供給我好從這樣的一個報告也顯示出顯示出"},{"start":11124.814,"end":11149.609,"text":"這個很忠實的一個報告好大家一直在關心的民眾黨團的提案生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫市區道路這個解凍條件寫得很清楚一個月內提出狀況報告並經同意後使得動滯好如果我們從這個"},{"start":11152.287,"end":11178.469,"text":"立法院三讀通過中央政府總議算案是在1月20幾號然後當然總統一直到3月才公告中央政府114年度的總議算案就算是從那個時候到現在也差不多一個月了"},{"start":11180.14,"end":11187.276,"text":"還不到那什麼時候可以送來什麼時候可以把這個解凍案狀況報告送來"},{"start":11188.254,"end":11215.692,"text":"好跟委員報告啦其實也感謝委員就是說了解我們生活圈對這個各縣市政府的重要性那現在來講的話因為剛剛有提到就是說因為院還有一個通山600多億的部分還沒有辦法分配完成這一個部分我們沒有辦法去做一個體驗的專案報告的一個通山是指山簡嘛對不對對好有沒有山簡這個部分到目前還沒有辦法確認不是生活圈道路"},{"start":11216.949,"end":11246.167,"text":"桑和謙道路這個寫得很清楚喔凍結的條件 凍結的理由凍結 解凍的條件是就要把狀況報告送來啊跟刪減有什麼關係呢呃 跟委員報告還是有關係你認為你想要刪嗎你想要自己刪嗎沒有 跟委員報告因為這個還要到院這邊還要 還有不一樣刪減通刪是通刪對不對是要你行政院去調整是"},{"start":11247.117,"end":11261.301,"text":"1月到現在調整不出來通刪就是給你們一個機會而不是由立法院來決定通刪你們來刪多少比例就按照這個來去刪所以從1月20號假設1月20號立法院刪除通過到現在2月3月兩個多月了還無法"},{"start":11273.92,"end":11297.668,"text":"所以這個部分 這不是理由解凍 解凍案喔我了解我們都是事務官出身這種解凍案太多了我們經歷很多各種不同的政黨執政我們都是事務官嘛 對不對所以這個解凍的條件非常清楚凍結多少也很清楚"},{"start":11298.442,"end":11319.808,"text":"不要去拿我們作為事務官我也曾經在陳水扁總統執政的時候對不對我做事務官常常要去說服政務官為了人民的權益不要受到政治的影響為什麼會認為說行政院會認為說因為這個通商、刪減到底多少"},{"start":11327.458,"end":11334.162,"text":"我們事務官很清楚就是因為柯建民總召在"},{"start":11336.482,"end":11363.161,"text":"韓國瑜院長在主持協商的時候就不協商嘛我想就是因為這樣所以我才跟委員報告就是說因為通山的狀況不明所以我們也很難為通山的狀況不明我們也很難為所以這跟解凍案不一樣是過去的解凍也很容易但是現在的解凍不容易尤其是涉及到人民權益的部分"},{"start":11363.761,"end":11382.993,"text":"我們看這個涉及到人民權益的部分這個是國土署在2月17號的一個新聞你們發布的新聞特別提到114年度國土管理業務預算414.67億用於持續推動300億中央擴大租金補貼專案"},{"start":11389.838,"end":11415.974,"text":"社會住宅直接興建包租貸款等包括貸款利息補貼目前遭立法院凍結41.47億你的信封稿也是寫得很清楚是凍結41.47億沒有刪減喔所以呢你這邊也是提到啊這裡面呢呼籲"},{"start":11418.504,"end":11435.611,"text":"請國會支持相關預算趕快解凍所以現在我們作為事務官為了租金補貼為了社會住宅各方面要趕快把提出狀況報告的"},{"start":11437.526,"end":11462.12,"text":"解凍報告趕快送來當然現在行政院下令不能送理由就是因為通山那個根本不是理由因為解凍條件非常非常的清楚而且就算是怎麼樣也要去說服部長甚至要說服行政院所以這個部分"},{"start":11462.677,"end":11484.828,"text":"都不是理由跟委員報告 租金補貼的解凍報告可能到時候還要跟大院再商量因為當時的解凍的理由是不滿國土計畫但是凍結了租金補貼還有其他項目我們都要去討論沒有關係 就寫清楚所以到底是要就寫清楚 所以這個部分時間的關係這個部分都還要跟大院這邊再討論因為這個部分的確也是我們很少見到的我們來看"},{"start":11492.949,"end":11496.931,"text":"凍結率我們看歷年的凍結率114年度是4.6%了曾經最高的是95年度13.24%"},{"start":11505.649,"end":11530.125,"text":"94年度12.71%102年度10.06%以歷年的凍結數來講4.6% 104年度算是很低很低的所以那時候為什麼都可以就是大家要溝通大家要溝通而且我們事務官不要陷入"},{"start":11530.936,"end":11558.536,"text":"了解不要陷入政務官那種大罷免的那個原因要去製造這個部分我們不要陷入事務官不要陷入這個部分我們長期是事務官好 剛才你有提到財政授之法案法你在別的委員的質詢的時候你有提到財政授之法案法財政授之法案法要修正是賴清德當市長的時候你那時候在台南市政府服務"},{"start":11559.704,"end":11587.228,"text":"然後那個賴清德總統當行政院院長的時候也提到要修財政收支劃分法要給地方更多的經費而終於完成了賴清德總統的願望完成了而這個財政收支劃分法我們國民黨的當初提案然後說得很清楚這個經費要從稅出剩餘"},{"start":11588.086,"end":11614.018,"text":"每年的幾千億的稅租增益然後超增稅收的每年的幾千億以113年度來講超增稅收5283億從這裡去支付這個三千多億的財產收入房給地方就足足有餘所以我們作為一個事務官要想辦法爭取現在的預算繼續維持"},{"start":11615.552,"end":11633.197,"text":"超證的稅收 稅計剩餘拿去給地方這個就是達成賴總統當行政院長的時候一個願望應該共同的支持所以這個時間的關係我們作為事務官要想辦法說服政務官好不好 謝謝"},{"start":11636.285,"end":11647.248,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員的諮詢下一位高金素美委員改書面再下一位林俊憲委員林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在再來我們請李坤城委員諮詢謝謝主席我們請這個國土署的吳署長吳署長有請"},{"start":11666.255,"end":11684.288,"text":"來署長好這個本席有看到你們2月9號有發一個新聞稿就是說這個114年度呢包含這一個提升人行安全跟生活圈道路計畫的這些預算有被3減了7.55億凍結了43.8億這個數字是否正確對最後是到目前為止通山是4.0這生活圈的部分是通山4.01億那這個"},{"start":11697.19,"end":11715.078,"text":"業務費業務費有被凍結那也被刪減跟凍結那這個部分是比較明確那永續的部分的話是影響是還好是業務費部分那所以剛剛那個數字後來有變動嗎對後來有變動是就是說這個刪減的沒有到7.55億對是生活圈的部分是4.01億然後凍結的部分"},{"start":11728.227,"end":11748.534,"text":"凍結是這個它的部分是業務費啦凍結部分是業務費 對然後會影響到就是說我們不是有這一個提升人行安全的這個計畫這個會不會受到影響這個部分是也是主要是在業務費的部分那所以在目前的話我們還是有這樣在審核凍結是凍結30%嘛 對業務費我記得內政部是凍結業務費是30%嘛"},{"start":11755.152,"end":11768.383,"text":"所以這個也含在裡面就對了但是我們現在就是永續的部分還是有持續在受理那就是說你們有一個113年到116年的4年的計畫那包含這個內政部是有140億"},{"start":11770.591,"end":11798.665,"text":"內政部是260億 交通部有140億總共是400億的一個提升行人安全的這個計畫那除了這個計畫之外你們還有一個是所謂的街道醫生就是說這個全民參與街道改善的平台就是用民眾去投票的啦那民眾投票我看你們這個去年有這個7月有這個投票的結果然後有八件那八件你們是說這八件就是中央政府會全額補助就對了沒錯"},{"start":11799.945,"end":11817.042,"text":"那這個預算會不會受到影響這目前來講沒有因為這是去年已經核定的案子那這個有包含在新北的話有包含這個學府路淡水的學府路是在淡江大學的周邊它的票數是蠻高的所以你們是優先來做處理啦好"},{"start":11819.874,"end":11845.3,"text":"目前來講新北市政府在淡水的部分它是一整區在提那三重的部分它有提了三重 我現在就問你三重因為它這個民眾投票這還有包含這個 除了淡水之外在三重有一個文化北路文化北路它也有109票那我請問一下 因為你們這邊說如果說是在這個你們有8案是中央政府全額補助然後如果這個得票數在50票以上呢"},{"start":11845.74,"end":11871.4,"text":"就喊請地方政府來評估這個案件的可行性那如果有需求可以進一步申請經費的補助那我請問一下齁在這個三重文化北路這一段它那個票選票數也是很高啊109票那請問一下那這個新北市政府有這個提案來申請這個可行性的補助嗎是這樣啊 這個提案的部分我們有通過那有請新北市政府提那新北市政府告訴我們現在在評估中因為它一直採取下來啦"},{"start":11873.168,"end":11890.616,"text":"他就是一個算是一個晚上會有夜市啊對對對所以他可能新北市政府還在評估他到底是要做這個變成說部分時段的人行專用呢還是還是他是部分的人行專用這部分我知道他們還在評估當中"},{"start":11891.056,"end":11918.155,"text":"所以那個還沒有送上去就對了對對對我們有要他提案但是他還沒有來還沒有來申請因為這個上一次三重區有很多里長也跟我反映就是說他們記得印象中有這個投票那這個投票在文化北路這個票數也蠻高的可是到目前為止好像沒有任何動靜所以目前就是新北市政府還沒有送上去對對他在評估就我們剛剛講他到底是要部分"},{"start":11919.062,"end":11921.507,"text":"部分還是全部 他現在可能還要再考慮"},{"start":11923.735,"end":11952.842,"text":"那就是那我也催一下新北市政府那如果既然中央有這個經費可以補助的話這個不要把這個經費浪費掉因為事實上如果按照民眾提案的票數來講應該算是意願很高因為表示造成的困擾也很大對我看這個跟這個淡江大學周遭的只差了大概四五十票而已對他跟應鑽路是同票數那表示其實瓶頸的狀況很嚴重好那我再請教你"},{"start":11953.382,"end":11981.586,"text":"就是說這個侯友宇市長他3月24他有到三重區他有一個這個行動治理然後他有特別在提到說三重果菜市場他說他任內希望這個三重果菜市場能夠讓他通過但是我印象中啦印象中就是說國土部署有一直要求新北市政府第一個要做這一個公開的這一個展覽他們還沒有辦另外一個就是說就是說因為當時候他們來申請新北市政府來申請是原地改建"},{"start":11982.326,"end":12009.783,"text":"那原地改建後來因為有一個所謂蘆洲的一個重劃區要迎合灣計畫所以他想要把它移過去那可是也沒有得到這一個蘆洲地區居民的同意然後在三重地區的話因為當初我們變更的同意讓它變更成商業區的條件是說原地重建那所以說我想請問一下國土署說目前對於這個三重國債市場目前的進度是到哪裡了"},{"start":12010.833,"end":12033.86,"text":"報告一下就是之前因為也有跟新北市政府說明如果你們政策上確定要搬過來那我們就是會請他就已經請他你要把三重的案子重新修正因為他104年通過那當時是市場原地重建所以他必須要回饋的公用設施比例是很低的"},{"start":12034.58,"end":12058.915,"text":"那但是你現在如果把它移過來你原地商業區的公共設施的比例現在就明顯偏就會明顯偏低你必須要重新修正你必須要再報一個修正案送過來給內政部小組委員會確認以後你要兩岸並同重新公展那讓市民都了解第一個確定這個案就要移到蘆洲第二個原地的"},{"start":12059.557,"end":12084.66,"text":"改建的條件就變更那這樣不會造成兩邊的條件一直不穩定我部都委會要一直移來移去但是到目前為止我們只有收到公文說他希望那一個蘆洲案可以重公斬但是不符合我們另外一個要件是說三重那一個要重新提報一個案件上來的這樣一個要件他蘆洲公斬也還沒有辦還沒有還沒有然後在三重的話因為就像你講的那其實當初讓他能夠"},{"start":12085.641,"end":12102.737,"text":"變成這一個變更成商業區其實是給它很大的一個條件然後其實因為它是市場會在那邊就像你講的這個公共的設施其實比例沒有這麼高它現在如果改成純商業區的話那個比例會不一樣啊對 要求的公設比例就要變高所以它現在都還沒有送過來是是對啊 所以"},{"start":12106.58,"end":12134.982,"text":"這個侯社長他就說他希望他任內能夠把這一個案子把它通過那基本上新北市政府這兩個要先做處理啊沒錯 一定要而且並同處理好我們才會統一來審議然後統一要求他兩個案子一起從公宅所以這個是要並行一起來處理就對了對 這樣兩邊的條件才會一致那總不能一個過了結果這一個條件還不確定那這樣的話到大會是絕對不予受理這樣的案子不會受理去審議的好 最後再問一下這迎新未來城"},{"start":12135.763,"end":12160.06,"text":"就是說這個原來這個壁華國中他遷走了那一新未來城那後來這一個新北市政府他們有做一些比例上面一些調整那他供應性好像有把它增加了是是是那他現在這個最主要他有那個他的那個全領全領的這一個出租套房這一個出租套房這個部分衛福部最後也有同意認定了所以這個部分他已經送過來我們有小組會再排審"},{"start":12161.261,"end":12188.101,"text":"會再排審那這部分大致上比較沒有問題也就是大家部會的意見也都有共識的話我們來審查會比較明確那大概有沒有什麼一個期限說這部分這個審查大概可以通過了沒有我們會加速這個部分我們會加速來處理因為畢竟這個案子也放很多年了那最近排審的這個都審應該是都審小組委員會那確切的時間我再跟委員在做報告那再跟我說明一下好謝謝署長"},{"start":12190.41,"end":12192.432,"text":"好 謝謝李崑禎委員的諮詢 下一位我們請徐信委員諮詢謝謝主席 本席請吳署長吳署長有請"},{"start":12218.812,"end":12240.778,"text":"委員好 署長好 署長請教一下今天內政部的報告是不是貴署所寫的執筆的是不是國土署 是本席想請教我們在背景說明的時候特別提到生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫是辦理道路的新闢貨拓寬"},{"start":12242.818,"end":12271.185,"text":"針對目前各直轄市縣市政府既有道路功能不彰危險或交通瓶頸來進行系統整合那我們想了解就是說你們你們現在跟地方的是不是都是地方提案然後你們審查然後撥經費嗎那現在如果地方這個有些路段民眾長期的反應而且一直沒改善那所以你們在"},{"start":12273.653,"end":12298.516,"text":"這個審核的時候你們是用什麼樣的機制說明一下就是說生活圈他送來的時候其實我們看的不會只有看那一條路我們其實也是看周圍的環境他改善的效應我把我題目講的更明確一點你們錢一直撥每年這樣預算全國這樣下去但是有些地方他的路段長期一直沒有改善這種情形怎麼辦"},{"start":12300.472,"end":12311.856,"text":"應該這麼說 看它是哪一類它有的是屬於非都市土地 那可能就是我們跟交通部有分別那我現在直接講 新竹產業園區內其實就以前的新豐湖口工業區 它現在叫新竹產業園區"},{"start":12321.92,"end":12332.966,"text":"那這裡面我想你應該很熟啊工業三路勝利二路還有榮光路那一段那邊長期反應都沒有改善工業區的部分是屬於在經濟部"},{"start":12335.427,"end":12363.081,"text":"工業區內工業區內是經濟部所以縣市政府不能提要提到經濟部他經濟部他之前也有他前幾年我印象他有做但是他不是全部都在做他有時候也會跟我們協商有一些在拜託我們或交通部做那有一部分他自己做可是可是這個如果他是縣道呢縣道縣府不能提案給你們不能改善嗎"},{"start":12364.587,"end":12368.562,"text":"說明一下如果工業區範圍內還是屬於它才屬於經濟部的部分"},{"start":12369.569,"end":12393.669,"text":"工業區的周邊主要道路如果在獨基內就是屬於我們屬於你們的嘛那榮光路是它主五線嘛主五線是我們縣道嘛是是是對所以這一塊那如果是提升道路品質的部分那就是在前瞻裡面就是它路況是做更新而已而不是有拓寬生活圈是主要你可能有拓寬有有有它需要拓寬"},{"start":12395.428,"end":12415.839,"text":"地方要求拓寬多年民怨沸騰所以我現在想知道你們審核的機制到底是怎麼樣說明一下這個部分我想我們再來跟縣府或跟公所了解看為什麼他們過去從來沒有提案因為有可能他覺得那個徵收費用可能太驚人或怎麼樣他有時候也不太敢提案是因為這樣"},{"start":12418.311,"end":12434.348,"text":"有可能因為有時候地方政府尤其到鄉鎮公所那個層級他會很在意講到這個我可能要請部長部長您也來一下因為我看到我們這個有所謂的道安總動員平台那個好像是交通部管的對不對"},{"start":12435.131,"end":12457.193,"text":"那你看它就是道安道路安全道安應該是道路交通安全道安總動員平台那國土署這邊也負責一些市區道路那這個怎麼整合所以我請部長來主要就針對因為這可能有跨部會的問題如果你現在講的就是產業園區外面的道路的話"},{"start":12458.154,"end":12474.173,"text":"那我會建議說委員可不可以就是說我們國土署跟交通部或者是跟經濟部啊共同去看一下大家把它查清楚就是全署的單位是誰然後來決定然後再跟地方政府來做溝通道安總動員平台它這是一個平台"},{"start":12475.134,"end":12499.681,"text":"去年6月24號才上線我們的行政院長都還有開記者會那他一直在定期公佈各縣市交通事故以及開放民眾通報路口改善建議那像這個既然他的利益是如此可是這個好像沒有真正發揮功效因為民眾反應也不一定有效再來就是我們發現"},{"start":12502.31,"end":12517.6,"text":"這個系統這可能交通部要上來因為這整合的他這個網站統計到今天我們上去看他還只統計到2月25號所以部長不好意思我請您還有交通部今天是"},{"start":12520.42,"end":12532.076,"text":"副局長副局長副局長來對那像這個網站上今天已經四月份了結果四月七號了結果我們現在統計只到二月二十五號這個系統"},{"start":12535.22,"end":12552.737,"text":"在放假期間網頁斷線你們這個系統不穩有一個說我要通報路口改善結果完全無從反應所以我也要同步表達就是說這個系統好像完全沒辦法work"},{"start":12555.555,"end":12580.247,"text":"那個副局長一副這個完全不知情然後這個上面本席也要建議這個應該是應該可以隨時及時更新可是它其實整個直到2月25去年6月我在這邊要凸顯第一個跨部會因為民眾的很多事情它不是單一的單位像今天這個可能內政部跟交通部都有關"},{"start":12581.187,"end":12602.363,"text":"那我们的中央政府真的少一点政治斗争多一点为民服务啊那这个去年六月才开记者会的到现在根本不work而且完全的也都好像摊在那里不到一年然后统计整个就好像摆烂在那里"},{"start":12604.4,"end":12613.105,"text":"報告委這個系統其實隨時在更新尤其是填報的像回報的民眾一來他直接是上網填報的"},{"start":12614.039,"end":12634.924,"text":"它上面就寫統計至2月25號啊你真的要我秀出來對啊統計至2月25號啊然後親民廉價你們應該知道那個民眾很多要反映的我們當然也是在準備質詢稿我們發現完全上機啊你們也沒人知道啊這個部分我們回去再查一下啦但是那個更新的部分是"},{"start":12637.216,"end":12665.947,"text":"地方政府這個路口做完了地方政府馬上會上這個網填報完成他是隨時再更新你不要說一套做一套你去了解實際情況那部長你也請回座我最後請署長署長我們今天講道路品質其實現在你應該知道市區道路的話其實人行道跟自行車道的需求越來越大我相信您了解"},{"start":12666.607,"end":12679.992,"text":"所以有關人行道跟自行車道的話事好像中央沒有什麼這個相關的一些措施報告我們在去年已經有公布那個"},{"start":12681.01,"end":12700.276,"text":"市區人行設施的這個相關的規範都有了自行車道的建制有統一的標準沒有人行道的部分有自行車道在交通部它有公佈因為我們發現我們三月份新竹縣整個道安事故是您知道嗎這個竟然"},{"start":12703.737,"end":12732.49,"text":"去這個三月份今年三月份的統計去年在騎自行車死亡的人數竟然是成長率百分之百那所以這個部分就是說人行道跟自行車道的部分這一塊你們怎麼樣來改善因為我們常聽到民眾跟我們反應就是說我走在人行道上我很容易可能會被自行車撞到"},{"start":12734.464,"end":12760.669,"text":"因為自行車道的劃設很多地方不足然後現在UBIKE全國都一直在進行我們新竹縣也在這幾年非常蓬勃的發展所以是不是你自行車等於說騎自行車死亡跟受傷的人數逐年這幾年是不是因為我們整個中央的法規還有我們的這個實施一直沒有跟上民眾生活的腳步"},{"start":12763.709,"end":12782.165,"text":"因為過去在人行道的設計上跟自行車到底是共用還是分隔其實交通部都有頒布相關的規定那當然我想在很多老的城市尤其像新竹市區本身道路就比較小那能夠擠出人行道大概就很不容易"},{"start":12782.685,"end":12806.466,"text":"那如果要在人行道裡面再去做分隔可能會更難所以我在猜這塊博土署有相關經費嗎沒有 我說明一下因為它是在你的標誌標線上要去做共用或區隔所以這個是在這為什麼是交通部因為在所有的這個道安規則裡面都是在交通部交通部它是執行單位"},{"start":12809.709,"end":12821.377,"text":"對 也就是說這樣的還有法規法規的部分那地方政府執行單位那但是經費你們這邊有嗎改善的部分是我們有所以你們改善所以我才會說明他們也有嗎"},{"start":12822.728,"end":12841.019,"text":"有他們也有場域不同都市計劃區內的話大概是我們我現在都講都市計劃區內所以我說明一下就是說人行道做好了他到底是要用共用還是分隔就是市政府要決定因為標準都有"},{"start":12842.472,"end":12868.761,"text":"由市政府決定沒有一個通用的法規或什麼就是它交通部有頒定的規則是共用跟分隔都可以就是你地方政府依照實際情形去決定是要共用還是分隔那所以可能是新竹市政府還沒有去做好這樣的一個規定沒有啦我是管新竹縣啦新竹縣的部分也沒有去可能還沒有去做好這一塊的這一個分隔的標準新竹縣也很多地方沒有啊"},{"start":12869.862,"end":12892.663,"text":"所以第一個建人行道您的意思是說這是縣市政府的責任應該這麼說人行道的部分經費我們來協助但是做好了你到底是跟自行車道要分隔我從頭到尾問的時候你們在審核經費你們在給地方當然地方都很希望你們給但是民眾跟我們都希望你們給下去我們是看得到成果的"},{"start":12893.655,"end":12916.62,"text":"我們當然也不會覺得說你給我那個不好但是你在審核的時候你怎麼樣把經費能夠包括它的執行對執行成效你們有在管嗎有這根委員報告我們大概每年就足跡都會做一些檢討足跡都會做一些檢討每年檢討前一年的前一年對那尤其大概做好以後會跟前一年的"},{"start":12917.861,"end":12929.128,"text":"就做好執行一年以後會跟之前沒有做完之前的交通事故去做一個比較所以你不會針對他他做了有沒有符合需求"},{"start":12930.848,"end":12950.139,"text":"符合需求的部分當然就是因為你地方政府提出這一些但是剩下就是有一些就變成民眾再來反映的時候那我們當然也會去做檢討這也是我們為什麼會有推一個街道醫生的那樣的一個計畫就讓民眾來提出他們的一些看法街道醫生是國土署提的嗎對對對"},{"start":12952.067,"end":12979.228,"text":"也就讓他們提出來有哪一些看法那我們會針對那樣的路口去提出來看看要怎麼去改善或是路段要怎麼去改善那這也就是有時候我們會接受民眾投票我們每年都有讓民眾來投票那還有做醫生 接到醫生的一個檢視是做這樣來協助大家看怎麼樣改善好 謝謝好 謝謝徐信英委員的質詢幫委員會我們中午不休息下一位我們請徐富格委員質詢"},{"start":12990.798,"end":12994.541,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請劉部長跟吳署長劉部長吳署長有請部長好署長好部長我想過去您的這個政治資歷非常的豐富從地方到中央歷練過很多的職務但是我想您也感慨萬千尤其這個"},{"start":13015.904,"end":13034.831,"text":"針對我們這一屆立委這個立法院很多的這個議案的審查甚至很多總預算的一個審查我想你有很多的感慨所以你之前也在開了一個記者會針對我們這個前瞻基礎建設的這個一些相關的規定預算的部分也提出一個看法"},{"start":13035.441,"end":13062.795,"text":"那過去屏東縣我想我們在這個財力有限的狀況之下許多的這個生活圈道路還有市區道路的改善是必須仰賴中央來支持那請教一下部長目前這個前瞻基礎建設第五期的預算還沒有完成三讀程序那總共有439個案子卡住了那請教部長目前屏東縣有幾個案子"},{"start":13063.983,"end":13072.511,"text":"部長這邊有瞭解嗎那目前來講執行中的有37案那大概3.2億的經費"},{"start":13074.932,"end":13089.903,"text":"那後續會不會因為總預算跟財發法的影響最主要前瞻如果沒有審查的話這些案子的後續經費大概就會是但是問題現在目前看起來這個排審的時間也遙遙無期那針對這樣的狀況部長跟署長有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":13095.982,"end":13121.414,"text":"跟徐委員報告 徐委員當然對於這些前瞻的預算非常的關心那前瞻預算現在第五期確實到目前為止是遙遙無期所以我們現在國土署也非常的努力就是說原來已經跟縣政府講好的已經是一個既定的然後我們已經有核定的部分的話那我們就先走那其他的話就是縣政府先報上來我們再繼續做審核的工作"},{"start":13121.954,"end":13143.853,"text":"那看看說前瞻預算有沒有可能可以比較有其他的方式來做比較好的溝通否則大概是沒辦法就是一直下去因為前瞻這是第五期了那再下來的就我所了解應該也沒有第六期的前瞻預算那這裡面還有可能一部分要回歸到是由中央政府或是地方政府的公務預算來支出那另外一個就是說我們也在考慮"},{"start":13144.874,"end":13163.821,"text":"未來的財政收支劃分法如果有確定說是在立法院通過完全沒有其他的複議或是其他的爭議的話財政收支劃分法裡面可能有一部分的預算會要請縣市地方政府自行來負擔部長我想你非常清楚縣市政府對於整個"},{"start":13166.503,"end":13185.341,"text":"跟中央的一個權責是不一樣的那尤其過去很多這個事權的部分很多都是必須仰賴中央來支持但是你這樣打下去之後我想未來真的很多縣市即使有錢也沒辦法執行而且這個錢確實也是不夠部長報告委員我沒打啦不是啦我說是可以用的藍白我們國民黨跟民眾黨的立委這樣打下去之後這米還要怎麼結業"},{"start":13192.445,"end":13218.203,"text":"確實會有困難第一個現在的中央政府總預算再加上目前立法院還是要求行政院自己要處理636億要刪或者是動哪一個部會的預算那所有的部會包括我們在內政部所屬的部分除了租金補貼還有一些道路的部分然後還有其他衛福部長照有關或者是國防部所以你要刪哪個地方動哪個地方完全是沒有辦法處理"},{"start":13219.284,"end":13241.785,"text":"所以立法院如果沒有跟行政院達成共識的話我們其實很難把114年的中央政府總預算好好的執行下去那如果參照以往的經驗所謂的解凍的部分的話以往我們1月就提這個解凍案可是真正解凍書面而且是書面不是專案解凍完到真正可以執行都是到5月或6月"},{"start":13242.886,"end":13261.363,"text":"現在已經是4月這個專案報告也好或是說立法院跟行政院還沒有達成共識說這個636億要如何處理的狀況之下尤其是像我們這個是部會裡面所牽涉到不管是下售到縣市地方政府或者是有些跨縣市的部分的話沒有人敢事先先用啦"},{"start":13262.363,"end":13280.979,"text":"尤其是如果你要有招標程序因為我常常對外講就是我們有一些預算你是一筆的啦一筆10億20億如果你沒有辦法10億20億都給的話我們不可能事情做一半然後好像就變成說只是做一下紙上作業沒有完全做很好的政策的評估的話會有困擾因為我們有時候審查的關係造成我們撥到地方政府的時候他們資訊率也是壓力很大"},{"start":13286.986,"end":13295.792,"text":"這是一環扣一環啊我又不能先去找啊也是覺得預算要當同歸我們當然是尊重監督啦但是這個監督能夠好好的那個大家來溝通的話其實會比較好而不是說就砍頭式的這樣把預算弄掉的話對我們來講是非常大的困擾我想我要替我們屏東鄉親來發聲我們也不希望因為總預算卡關造成這個整個這個屏東的建設受到影響啦"},{"start":13316.627,"end":13344.156,"text":"那我想最後一個針對這個我們人行環境的改善署長過去我想我們都支持這個交通便捷也贊成這個人行環境的改善但是目前還是有發生一些的百姓對這個改善後的狀況有雜音那尤其很多的這個商圈包含我們很多的這個原本鄉親這個交通使用的習慣"},{"start":13345.416,"end":13354.043,"text":"因為改變之後他們都覺得到底這改是好還是不好包含我們這個有時候貨車要停車的空間也不見了這個要"},{"start":13355.173,"end":13380.542,"text":"這個消費者的這個車子也不曉得停到哪裡去這就這樣的一個亂象你們的街道醫生能夠發揮什麼樣的功能跟委員報告啦因為的確在地方政府在執行就會像剛剛委員所講的有時候他的因地制宜的時候他過度強調我就是要做出來我就是要做出來但是事實上像我們人行道跟騎樓也可以並計來考慮"},{"start":13382.516,"end":13409.528,"text":"也就是說當你再去考慮這個人行道的時候你跟騎樓之間的互動你到底要怎麼去處理而不是我一定當然有時候委員會建議說你盡可能做實體或做標線但是如果另外一個可能我跟騎樓之間的關係如果處理得好那我也不一定要弄到這樣就不會像委員所講的有時候要擴張出來之後很多停車駕駛不可以甚至下回停車駕駛不可以蘇理你看這個圖面上顯示的"},{"start":13411.797,"end":13414.624,"text":"你看人行道圍出來AutoBike"},{"start":13416.233,"end":13442.85,"text":"車輛人車正道還是沒有改善啊我了解我的意思是說所以他在調的過程當中其實要多一點討論啦尤其跟地方地方民眾的一些討論這樣會比較妥適所以為什麼我們的計畫現在永續的部分不會要求他一定要當年做完因為過去前瞻的部分會需要但永續為什麼要可以讓他有一到兩年就是要多一些時間去溝通去調整"},{"start":13444.24,"end":13465,"text":"那避免產生民眾不適應我在我們屏東好幾個路口我發現我們的標誌 標線都做到100分可是我們問了很多人 你知道這什麼意思嗎看不懂啦 回過頭啦所以有什麼需要溝通 那些東西需要溝通做到100分的標準 難道不會有車禍發生嗎還是發生啊這是要怪政府還是要怪北省"},{"start":13469.38,"end":13484.19,"text":"沒有 當然 我有我們的報告啦我剛剛說的那個溝通那個溝通包括說民眾的使用習慣尤其我們南部都是騎摩托車的習慣他有時候機車的習慣會跟行人的習慣本身就很容易衝突"},{"start":13485.251,"end":13496.085,"text":"所以你今天要修正這樣的一個機制出來的時候政府在相關的宣導、觀念的功能上都還有很大的改進空是,所以我還是建議不要等到完工之後再來檢測再來檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測"},{"start":13500.41,"end":13525.168,"text":"沒有才子啦 又這個狀況啦我跟你講一下我們以前的經驗啦通常這麼大的路口要改善的話大概會經過縣政府的道安匯報那這個道安除了縣政府以外還有像交通警察或者是地方上的社區發展或者是這個里長一起來提供意見也就是說我們要改善這些路口上面的交通除了降低他的死亡死傷以外最重要是要能夠合用不是好看啦不是好看就好 漂亮漂亮這樣"},{"start":13529.531,"end":13557.471,"text":"不是我們要的理由我贊成你的看法是我希望多溝通這個部分但是在多溝通的過程當中就是變成要有頭人在那個地方講清楚大家可以各退縮一下我們也處理過像台北市的一樣那個有收到的人行照就大得不得了就兩三輛的貨車那麼寬可是他們就這樣做那就可以降低他們的市場所以我說的說明會要開說明會一定要開而且不是做交代的開法"},{"start":13558.271,"end":13576.194,"text":"一定要能夠把偷人家但是道安會報宅先是這麼希望能夠照開會比較好根據他的案件還是希望這個能夠在有時候在施工或是規劃的時候因為我們不希望說這個做好的時候是為了讓警察去開罰單我想不是這個意願不是一百分的人行環境就能夠解決一下"},{"start":13576.274,"end":13600.939,"text":"不是不是要能夠實用而且要合乎大家的日常生活譬如說我知道你講的部分譬如說圓環或者是剛好在做生意或是夜市那會有晨昏之間的這個交通的狀況需要處理那這個都大家要講清楚那地方上的人提供意見的話通常這個道路施工單位尤其是以國土署為主的都會尊重地方的意見對我們一起來努力謝謝"},{"start":13604.673,"end":13617.657,"text":"好 謝謝徐富貴委員下一位請吳思堯委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員不在下一位請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在下一位請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在下一位請張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":13636.527,"end":13639.187,"text":"現在全民都團結不分朝野都在應對川普關稅的這個核彈可是我發現好像民進黨一直在造謠當中"},{"start":13665.165,"end":13693.668,"text":"我看你禮拜三月三三吧還在講這個租租的這個補貼被凍結了兩百億啊大徐議員也問你你為什麼還在拗這個題目還在照樣報告委員我剛講得非常的清楚您可以去看一下包括行政院所公布的或者是立法院所公布的部分所有的在野黨所有立法委員這是有你拿出來給我看有任何一個立法委員提案凍結了你兩百億的這個"},{"start":13695.546,"end":13717.823,"text":"租補貼的錢嗎拿出來給我看報告委員我已經講過了在行政院有一筆預算400億那個是我們內政部要求要擴大租金補貼由去年的50萬戶增加到75萬戶所以這個是新撥補的要有200億元到內政部然後內政部呢在給國土管理署的部分的話在台灣民眾黨裡面所說的30%動10%41.4億的部分"},{"start":13722.466,"end":13741.142,"text":"那是內政部國督署 但是我現在所指的是行政院給內政部的200億的租金補貼叫擴大租金補貼跟新設宅的部分這也在我們那個卓院長的報告裡面有提到對啊對啊 你拿出來看看 有任何一個立委提了凍結200億嗎報告委員 在立法院的三讀通過的過程當中就是有兩個黨團舉手然後刪掉的"},{"start":13750.882,"end":13775.756,"text":"沒有這個提案啊 有嗎 凍結的部分 凍結你拿出來給我看有嗎 中央政府總預算我唸一下可以嗎 您方便嘛中央政府總預算增加2806億那裡面的擴大租金補貼跟新設宅是有200億元也就是說如果114年的中央政府總預算沒有通過的話這個是屬於新增的那行政院就沒有辦法撥補給我們200億給我們的住宅基金 報告委員"},{"start":13779.076,"end":13806.025,"text":"沒有人提案去凍結這200億啊任何一筆都沒有在立法院的三讀通過我是以三讀通過為準所以我有跟委員解釋你把他換成他所有新興的嘛對不對就沒有人砍掉這筆不是不是換成他本來就是新的預算他不是延續性的預算沒有人任何提案去砍了你說的這2000多億嘛更沒有講你說的這200億啊有嗎你提任那個案子給我看啊"},{"start":13807.26,"end":13832.09,"text":"你這個是完全擴大而且是扭曲的跟住宅補貼有關係真正有過提案的就是上個禮拜上次我不是有跟你們講過嗎有幾個關鍵啊第一個他已經排除就沒有砍任何一毛錢租屋的這個補貼對不對這上次我清清楚楚給你看有你有看到我們的提案嗎這是第一類第二關鍵字就是說他一下增加了105%去年是編202億對不對"},{"start":13836.84,"end":13851.25,"text":"今年變多少?414億欸更重要的來來我們來上一下小學的這個數學好不好你在講說被動了錢動了40億所以沒幾個人贏對不對你已經增加了一倍414億刪了2.73這2.73還已經排除喔不包括租屋補貼喔好終究是刪完之後動了1%40億"},{"start":13863.547,"end":13891.081,"text":"你一年我已經問過你了,我還閒聞去你內政部喔,去國土署門喔你的租屋補貼一年是多少?3870支事實上到目前為止,今年搞不好還花不到372啊你到11月底到12月,錢都夠用啊所以三個關鍵,第一個已經排除沒有刪,對不對第二,你增加了兩倍之後你剩下的錢終究動了10%你都足夠用到11月底,12月底啊怎麼會有問題?"},{"start":13892.955,"end":13912.701,"text":"是不是這樣這個數學本來應該看得到嘛對不對你錢就44億了啊你變成這個預算清清楚楚啊砍掉了273已經排除喔雖然被砍排除喔你還剩下372億是不是你需要的你今年就372啊有夠啊怎麼也沒夠錢是不是這樣"},{"start":13917.685,"end":13925.467,"text":"我要回答嗎報告委員我再把它原來的程序跟委員很簡單報告一下請你給我30秒就好了我們在8月29號去年8月29號的時候有個預算案送到立法院裡面去那國土管理業務的編列預算是414億6726萬2000元裡面含撥補住宅基金400億元"},{"start":13942.432,"end":13965.677,"text":"這個所謂的撥補住宅基金的400億元不是我內政部給國土署而是行政院要給內政部這個沒有錯吧好那113年的住宅基金的撥補只有200億所以我們希望行政院呢要能夠給我們400億也就是說我們需要增加200億的這個錢那如果沒有的話只能動資原來的200億多分200億200億所以大家都會混混混"},{"start":13966.957,"end":13974.843,"text":"混在一起然後在總統公佈總預算案的時候總統公佈預算案為法定預算的時候呢我們的撥補200億才能動之那所以這個院會表決的過程當中裡面包括有凍結要給致用的預算我現在所說的就是我們的中央政府總預算也就是我們那個行政院卓院長在提到的"},{"start":13992.657,"end":13998.026,"text":"中央政府總預算增加了2,806億裡面有一部分叫擴大租金補貼是200億我現在講的是這個部分"},{"start":14000.72,"end":14029.853,"text":"這部分有任何人砍了它嗎沒有而且這是完全扭曲的這是現在可以用嗎現在可以用嗎報告委員現在我們全部的捅山捅洞的部分是303億那立法院要求行政院自己去處理各部會要刪減的部分有636億這個636億到目前為止不管是立法院有沒有跟行政院溝通或說明好目前為止都是未定案"},{"start":14030.373,"end":14054.549,"text":"那既然目前為止是未定案的話我們的部會是在行政院全部統籌之下當然都是未定數所以未來的租金補貼是不是真正能夠撥補到兩百億我們也是有一個問號請委員多指教你說你新增兩千八百零六億後來後來砍了不是我們是整個行政院兩千八百多對不對對這是砍了多少錢"},{"start":14055.97,"end":14067.757,"text":"全部的山形了多少939億左右你說的是桶山嘛對不對不是不是桶山抱歉桶山桶洞的部分我們都處理好了叫做303億整體三讀之後這是104年的整個因為就我的理解20002075嘛那裡面還扣掉1000億的台電對不對是青蛙嘛對不對"},{"start":14078.083,"end":14104.866,"text":"跟這個也不是全部砍這個金額啊從全部砍這個金額這裡面還剩下很多啊第二個是你親口剛剛講的你說的是統商部分939嘛對不對統商不是939就是一定要處理掉的939統商的是303億還有636億可能要分散到各部會去那怎麼樣分散到各部會去行政院還沒有從立法院這邊得到一個正確的數字所以我們有一點不太敢輕舉妄動"},{"start":14107.264,"end":14131.97,"text":"第一個這樣很牽強啊因為你只有630你636跟2800多這是幾分之幾絕大部分都可以用吧報告委員因為我不是在行政院的這個層級我只回應我的內政部可以處理到的部分我知道這第一點嘛第二點我現在跟你說我剛剛就算給你看你的金額是夠的嘛對不對第二個這個提案你知道因為到目前為止登記租金補貼的大概已經有70萬戶以上"},{"start":14133.921,"end":14138.125,"text":"對 保證還有一個大問題提案裡面還有一個很重要的你三個月內你要提 我上面有問你對不對"},{"start":14139.485,"end":14168.445,"text":"你要趕快提啊報告委員我們今天在程序提出來的時候已經有提到了今天算是業務報告不算是解凍報告而且那裡面有提到的是專案報告這個專案報告要立法院依照程序交辦下來才有可能處理對嘛所以我們提案裡面就要你三個月提嘛立法院的院會立法院的院會不是內政委員會我們內政委員會的委員今天都非常的清楚我們今天的報告事項是以報告業務為主"},{"start":14170.575,"end":14199.193,"text":"畢竟議會只是交給委員會來審對不對對嘛我尊重立法院的各項程序處理我們尊重立法院的各項程序處理上次連那個主席都有跟你解釋過了嘛那我們提案裡面很清楚你就三個月就趕快提嘛好我歸納一下我們歸納拜託這個事情不要再有誤會因為這牽扯到很多人的權益啊豬補貼多少人拗待補貼等你現在害怕事實上第一個關鍵是什麼沒有刪掉他任何一筆錢"},{"start":14201.16,"end":14224.188,"text":"點解你三個月你本來就要提解凍嘛我上次要提醒你除了賴清德以前公司的那一筆凍結到的格點才給凍結案沒有不過的啦你趕快提三個月時間都已經到了第三個我現在進一步用數學給你看你凍結到10%拿掉你的錢還是夠的怎麼可以不花錢或者是讓人家覺得有恐懼感呢趕快解決問題啦好不好OK"},{"start":14228.991,"end":14235.686,"text":"不要再讓那個要租補貼的人有沒有擔心主席上次已經講了盡快因為排給我們就趕快審好不好"},{"start":14237.932,"end":14266.202,"text":"好 謝謝張祺凱委員的質詢這我們再補充說明一下啦 謝謝這個今天的跟解凍是有關的啦因為解凍有很多要件嘛其中要件如果有要專案報告你就是要排專案報告嘛我如果等你通通送進來萬一送了三五個案子卡在一起這樣很麻煩嘛所以現在先把這走完到最後送進來之後我們還是要進討論事項還是要處理但是就可以審去尋答這個最花時間的流程啦所以是有關的但今天不會處理到解凍案因為你剛剛還沒有送進來還沒有附委嘛"},{"start":14266.602,"end":14275.026,"text":"那我們希望行政院趕快送第二個我剛剛聽了不管是徐宇貞委員或者是張啟凱委員針對的租屋補貼還有劉思芳部長之間的200億大家認知不一樣啦因為行政院的擴大新增的200億有沒有編進來其實是有嘛因為113年編200嘛114年編了400嘛所以其實是有進來那張啟凱委員跟徐政委員意思是說我們沒有去刪這個200億嘛"},{"start":14290.072,"end":14315.622,"text":"因為卡到其他的東西可能動之一時間有困難所以他誤會是在這個地方但是我想大家都不會反對今天不管是藍綠白委員都想要監督政府但是針對租屋補貼這個事情大家絕對都不會去為難政府只要把事情講清楚就好所以行政院針對我是覺得跟民生最有關幾個其實我們都開始有走專案報告嘛比如說租屋補貼比如說今天的生活圈道路跟建設有關的我想行政院也不會隨便尊嚴啦"},{"start":14316.322,"end":14341.934,"text":"這一部分補充做一下說明好 最後我們請葉院之委員葉院之委員 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次長能不能幫忙一下因為這個交通建設也算我們地方的一個因應期盼的一個建設"},{"start":136.553,"end":163.229,"text":"可以嗎報告委員好這個案子因為之前委員有諮詢過我自己本人召開過會議跟新北市政府捷運局來做溝通跟協調他們也確實把報告有再送上來但這裡面有一個非常關鍵的問題也就是所謂的金融比的問題就是他們把未來的土地開發的這種收益納為未來的附屬事業收益"},{"start":164.41,"end":171.904,"text":"對一般來講我們是土開銷業是列為自償性經費不能夠列為未來營運期的一部分營運收入"},{"start":174.603,"end":195.319,"text":"這個細節我覺得你可以該怎麼樣你可以找他們來再討論嗎因為現在就是補件之後沒有回應我們最新有很快的報告他們的如果需要的話我們也可以來幫忙協調盡快啦不要卡在你們該做的事情還是要做但是不要卡在行政流程"},{"start":195.799,"end":224.354,"text":"比如說公文在誰的桌上等半天啊安排會議啊要為了要借會議室還是配合哪個長官時間就拖一兩個月啊我覺得盡量不要因為行政程序卡好不好加快速度了好第二個請教一個我問一個到案的問題那個居然可以回座沒關係問一下到案的問題今天早上有一個有一個男子開車啦撞到一對夫妻那夫妻受傷那男子呢他自己承諾啊是他自己講說他酒駕然後就照逃了"},{"start":225.074,"end":247.403,"text":"那這個我想請教一下因為之前交通部曾經針對這個議題就是酒駕兆頭假設有受傷那是一回事但是如果沒有受傷的話那酒駕兆頭他可能隔了一天兩天被抓到但是那時候他已經沒有酒精了嘛所以他可能就只能夠罰他大概幾千塊"},{"start":248.743,"end":269.848,"text":"那比一些酒駕的人留下來乖乖的接受酒測然後被罰是輕很多所以當時就很多團體專家就說那這樣是不是鼓勵大家酒駕要照逃那我有看說交通部好像有說要研議這方面的修法的方向我不知道說這個能研議的結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":272.269,"end":284.164,"text":"你可以看這個PET他講說如果你配合警方九策的話那最高是12萬罰款再加上刑責但如果說你是肇事逃逸的話大概就最高就罰3000塊那時候交通部有說會研議修法"},{"start":287.888,"end":316.829,"text":"是跟我們報告一下這裡面就是說針對肇事逃逸因為肇事的部分基本上有財損或者是這個肇事致人輕傷重傷死亡這些相關的部分它裡面的太陽是相對我知道這就是你們之前講的嘛對對對但是就是說是不是就是說每個這個就是說肇事逃逸的一個這一個部分就是為了這個躲避對你剛剛有講這個就是去年你們的理由就是這樣"},{"start":317.469,"end":339.349,"text":"就是說因為趙陶不見得是酒駕趙陶啦他可能別的原因嘛所以所以一致性的提高趙陶的罰則不公平嘛對不對所以然後你們就說但是你們會思考一下怎麼修法去杜絕我剛剛講的狀況嘛那我現在只是問說那你們現在因為是去年11月到現在也半年了啦然後剛好因為今天早上也發生"},{"start":340.47,"end":365.043,"text":"就是有酒駕照討的事情所以我來請問一下交通部現在你們現在的進度是怎麼樣所以不用再解釋你的理由我都知道對不對跟我們報告就是說目前我們還是著重在酒駕房子的部分啦是這個就是這個目前我們還是這個相關房子的部分是在針對這個酒駕的部分而不是就是說在處理通案這個那要怎麼去解決"},{"start":366.184,"end":373.013,"text":"如果你酒駕選擇肇事逃逸的問題呢有選擇肇事逃逸比配合警方酒駕罰的輕怎麼去解決這個問題"},{"start":376.939,"end":400.115,"text":"我想只要有肇事的這個部分的話那這個基本上現行大概都有這個每輛車子都有這個行車記錄器的部分那在這個整個事故處理的一個部分的話我們也加上這個就是宣導如果說相關有肇事的部分的話那周邊的人或是這個當事人就趕快這個報案那我們也請這個就是說警政署"},{"start":400.495,"end":430.035,"text":"對於這種兆頭然後再處理這個船亂的一個部分的話來做一個加速這個處理但是我要跟委員報告的一個這個部分就是說委員在這個之後最近這個媒體上面大概也看到很多這個就是酒駕開車有這些相關部分那警察大概就會加強這個盤查其實這幾天大概也抓在這個就是說盤查過程當中也抓到很多這個"},{"start":432.096,"end":448.581,"text":"你跟我講的是不同的事情警方很認真在查酒駕這我也知道然後你們加強宣導我也都知道我現在問的問題是你要怎麼去解決如果是酒駕然後因為選擇兆頭會比他乖乖接受酒測罰得比較輕這個問題我的問題"},{"start":450.842,"end":464.538,"text":"其實很清楚而且這個問題你也知道所以在去年的時候你們也有對社會大眾也有所回應那個時候是說會研擬方案現在只是問你的方案但現在聽起來是沒有什麼方案嘛這個只會寄過由這個過去在"},{"start":468.723,"end":483.077,"text":"的相關的防治的做法嗎一樣嘛對不對好OK沒有我是問個態度而已啦好謝謝我也跟委員長分享一句因為這裡面還介紹到這個刑事法律的部分這個我們再跟法務部跟警政署再共同來做一個研究OK好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時44分）麻煩請政次還有鐵道局。"],["主席：請次長、楊局長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好、局長好。我想關心一下我們泰板輕軌的進度，因為我記得去年9月陳世凱部長剛到任的時候我有拜託他，就是說我們這個可行性研究已經拖了大概兩年，那時候快兩年，現在已經兩年多了，一直都沒有核定，但泰板輕軌實際上是交通部前部長王國材的承諾，那時候到我們板橋的另外一區，配合張宏陸委員說要蓋一個社後支線，泰板輕軌是主線，社後輕軌是支線，應該是先有主線才有支線，結果現在可行性研究一直卡住。那時候陳世凱部長有承諾會儘快，儘量不要發現一個問題退一次、發現一個問題退一次，我非常感謝他，因為後來好像新北市政府在10月底有正式發文的時候就沒有退了，但是一直要求補件。補件我覺得也應該啦，補充資料也是應該，可是補件了，人家送件之後的回函特別慢。","我就講最新一次，那時候有要求市府補充一個捷運開發大樓出售前要提供捷運公司附屬事業法源依據跟案例，就我了解，他們是在2月26號補充資料，到現在大概一個多月了，也都沒有回文，我是想問這個行政程序能不能加快一點？因為我看起來這不是很困難的回應，甚至也不用文來文往，如果真的對一些細節有疑慮的話，大家找過來開個會，當面討論一下，溝通溝通其實也很快，因為我做立委以來也協調過很多不同的部會之間，你們中央的部會來我們辦公室協調，感覺上好像都很不熟，但是大家面對面討論完之後，速度就加快很多，所以就這個部分，局長、次長能不能幫忙一下？因為交通建設也算我們地方殷殷期盼的一個建設，可以嗎？"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，這個案子之前委員有質詢過，我自己本人召開過會議，跟新北市政府捷運局來做溝通跟協調，他們也確實把報告再送上來，但這裡面有一個非常關鍵的問題，也就是所謂的經營比的問題，就是他們把未來土地開發的收益也納為未來的附屬事業收益。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["楊局長正君：一般來講，我們土開效益是列為自償性經費，不能夠列為未來營運期的一部分營運收入。"],["葉委員元之：這個細節我覺得你可以……"],["楊局長正君：這是一個很根本的技術問題。"],["葉委員元之：該怎麼樣、該怎麼樣你可以找他們再討論。"],["楊局長正君：有。"],["葉委員元之：因為現在就是補件之後沒有回應嘛。"],["楊局長正君：有、有、有，我們有很快地告知他們。"],["葉委員元之：如果有需要的話，我們也可以來幫忙協調，好不好？"],["楊局長正君：好的。"],["葉委員元之：儘快啦！"],["楊局長正君：好。"],["葉委員元之：你們該做的事情還是要做，但是不要卡在行政流程，比如說公文在誰的桌上等半天，或是安排會議，為了要借會議室還是配合哪個長官，時間就拖了一、兩個月，我覺得儘量不要因為行政程序而卡住，請加快速度。"],["楊局長正君：是的，好。"],["葉委員元之：第二個，我問一個道安的問題，局長可以回座沒關係。我問一下道安的問題，今天早上有一個男子開車撞到一對夫妻，夫妻受傷，該名男子自己承諾、他自己講說他酒駕然後就肇逃了。我想請教一下，之前交通部曾經針對這個議題，就是酒駕肇逃，假設有受傷，那是一回事，但是如果沒有受傷的話，他酒駕肇逃可能隔了一天、兩天被抓到，但是那時候酒精已經代謝掉了，所以可能就只能罰他大概幾千塊，比一些酒駕的人留下來乖乖接受酒測然後被罰的輕很多，所以當時就有很多團體專家說，這樣是不是鼓勵大家酒駕要肇逃？我看交通部好像有說要研議這方面的修法方向，我不知道你們研議的結果是怎麼樣。請看這個PPT，如果你配合警方酒測的話，最高是處12萬罰鍰再加上刑責，但如果你是肇事逃逸的話，大概最高就罰3,000塊。"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員……"],["葉委員元之：那時候交通部有說會研議修法。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，針對肇事逃逸，因為肇事的部分基本上有財損或者是肇事致人輕傷、重傷、死亡這些相關的部分，裡面的態樣是很多。"],["葉委員元之：很多，我知道，這就是你們之前講的嘛。"],["林司長福山：對、對、對，但是是不是每個肇事逃逸就是為了躲避……"],["葉委員元之：對，你剛剛有講。"],["林司長福山：對、對、對。"],["葉委員元之：去年你們的理由就是這樣，就是說因為肇逃不見得是酒駕肇逃，可能是別的原因，所以一致性地提高肇逃的罰則不公平，對不對？"],["林司長福山：對。"],["葉委員元之：然後你們就說會思考怎麼修法去杜絕我剛剛講的狀況，我現在只是問說，因為去年11月到現在也半年了，剛好今天早上發生酒駕肇逃的事情，所以我來請問一下交通部，你們現在的進度是怎麼樣？所以不用再解釋你的理由，我都知道。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，目前我們還是著重在酒駕防制的部分。"],["葉委員元之：是。"],["林司長福山：目前相關的防制是在針對酒駕的部分，而不是在處理通案這部分。"],["葉委員元之：那要怎麼去解決酒駕選擇肇事逃逸的問題呢？就是選擇肇事逃逸比配合警方酒測罰得輕，怎麼去解決這個問題？"],["林司長福山：我想只要有肇事的話，基本上現行大概每輛車子都有行車記錄器的部分，在整個事故的處理，我們也加強宣導，如果相關有肇逃的話，周邊的人或當事人就趕快報案，我們也請警政署對於這種肇逃在處理傳喚的部分加速做一個處理。但是我要跟委員報告的就是，最近媒體上面也看到很多相關酒駕開車的部分，警察大概就會加強盤查，其實這幾天盤查過程當中大概也抓到很多酒駕的案子。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，你講的跟我講的是不同的事情。警方很認真在查酒駕，這我也知道；你們加強宣導，我也都知道。我現在問的問題是你要怎麼去解決如果是酒駕，選擇肇逃會比他乖乖接受酒測罰得比較輕，我的問題其實很清楚，而且這個問題你也知道，所以在去年的時候，你們對社會大眾也有所回應，那個時候是說會研擬方案，現在只是問你的方案，但現在聽起來是沒有什麼方案嘛，你們還是會用過去相關的防制作法，一樣嘛！對不對？"],["林司長福山：嗯。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我是問一個態度而已。"],["林司長福山：我也跟委員再補充一句，因為這裡面還牽涉到刑事法律的部分，我們再跟法務部、警政署共同來做一個研究。"],["葉委員元之：OK，好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言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王美惠委員主席 咱請 署長你怎麼知道我要叫你 啊我叫你 你就站著來 主席"},{"start":19.025,"end":35.751,"text":"在這 署長剛才很多我們的好董事有說過今天就是要探討我們市區的生活圈剛才最為你跟洪祿 札韋說的說你們想辦法我想不想想什麼辦法第二天前瞻會退後幾個到現在"},{"start":47.153,"end":54.184,"text":"還沒處理的時候,有的地方補助是因為前一陣子的地方,這樣他一定有發泡"},{"start":59.369,"end":74.982,"text":"像這樣要怎麼處理 來 署長你回答一下第一個就是說 第一就是說生活圈的部分其實都有家庭 還有同居啦因為生活圈是比較長期的 一個假月可能四五天所以它中的部分 我先講今年"},{"start":77.003,"end":100.337,"text":"如果我這個補分你怎麼說我們在檢討會議裡面都已經有跟他們說明了有跟他們說明叫地方政府的財政商要育兒因應後面我們只能看預算的處理情形再通知他們所以這就是中央跟地方大家互相搭配但是前瞻就比較明確前瞻就是"},{"start":103.339,"end":126.16,"text":"你原地準備要自己核定的,現在都先停了,沒有核定這件事事情就是說,去年已經核定在這行程的我就說,我就拔錢拔到這個位,照進度我拔到你那裡,出那裡沒有因為照去年的尤省,我可以框定的額度到多少我就框到那邊給你,那出那個行程你要自己預約運營,這都在檢討會議都有跟你們說明"},{"start":127.461,"end":128.862,"text":"有檢討會議都有說明那市長像上次收補助的像現在有的年輕大嘛有的是社區跟學校目前現在都有做的跟目前"},{"start":144.577,"end":147.721,"text":"本心本性有跟你們提議 因為一定要市政府跟管理商我們才有辦法去農曆嘛 因為沒有商也不知道問題出一隊 開始帶一條路不要帶一個學校跟路"},{"start":162.199,"end":168.044,"text":"社區要走的,不好走的,要改善的,一定他們要有提議出來嘛,把提議出來,你們自己覺得說,帶一條陷害,可以先做嘛,我們在這裡面,像你說的,這樣,沒錢,這樣就海融融了。這確實啦,有些地方,我們可以,有些地方變成暫停提案啦,不讓他們再提了。"},{"start":188.806,"end":200.604,"text":"那有一些尤其是像剛才說的提升人行安全,還有就是道路品質的部分道路品質對有機廢料都大概衝擊是比較大"},{"start":204.83,"end":208.132,"text":"對非六都衝擊是比較大因為很多都要靠這個來把這長年失修的道路要做一些改善因為我覺得不是在六都裡面都怕人家說"},{"start":220.82,"end":223.983,"text":"提議有三件項目,中央的審核項目,內政可以投入,當局一來,局外可以緩修,可以溝通好,人生要走也很安全啦在這個安全當中,現在我好煩惱的就是說,要仰賴中央的步驟,結果沒有了啦"},{"start":245.879,"end":247.22,"text":"這是很煩惱啦像說我們今天大家有什麼問題可以做探討我們要謙證他站出來的時候 交付我們的內政看怎麼處理 如果做得好"},{"start":263.906,"end":271.289,"text":"我們還可以處理這個經費的時候因為以我自己來說我自己中央學校的步驟我認為有改善過你們有時間去騎去走都做得很好啊評測也很好啊所以為了這個醫生暫時凍結的時候對我自己來說應用費最大是"},{"start":294.652,"end":313.805,"text":"因為你如果知道我的個性,我不分藍綠,不分誰在地方執政,只是把日期的建設做好才好,不要讓日期的百姓人員,兩樣的區域在地方,什麼董沒工,寶座就沒工"},{"start":318.388,"end":320.609,"text":"這是很大的侮辱啦所以署長在這裡 你要知道說我真正要在這裡 要順路騎摩托車的時候要把你收回整個日本啦你要知道 把他持 非常需要中央的合作啦尤其現在"},{"start":339.915,"end":344.4,"text":"像剛才那條路擦掉做了 本市一直發表對應的建議 對應的計劃 已經漸漸完成了現在八十月的十二條路 署長你知道這條路嗎 要怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":362.103,"end":370.088,"text":"因為現在可能就暫時無法及時發報了啦因為現在暫時有部分先暫停下來所以我就是站在我的地方的立場我最高興的啦本來認為覺得辦事會會溝通我忙這條路來改善結果現在沒辦法啦"},{"start":384.787,"end":394.15,"text":"市長,那有什麼方法?現在這是有先跟市府有說我才有說,那你中央有什麼方法?我也是希望這比較快解凍,這邊的部分我們就可以儘速來核定這個部分這樣就是說,如果解凍之後,對家役及本社會的責任,就早日可以來做了"},{"start":409.855,"end":418.461,"text":"我認為市府也認真發表 因為我講實在的市府也認真 我們民運代表也認真所以我們就是要手牽手 為了地方的建設來發表有的人當選 有的人選 他說不知道地方的感覺怎麼樣"},{"start":440.281,"end":444.503,"text":"所以署長,在這,我認為,長久以來,在過程中,我開台北的時候,你已經知道地方的需求是什麼,要改善的是什麼,所以有做到不好的,我們也要改善,本身來說,"},{"start":464.543,"end":470.827,"text":"我們也在人行道做了這個轉彎這個關節的時候讓轉彎的騎摩托車騎卡車的人慢慢危險這是我們中央跟地方要去看好 做好不是做好 把我們改善了一點小細節會因為這個車禍來地上很多危險的人"},{"start":493.911,"end":503.9,"text":"市長,在這裡面本身要跟你說,這是很多,因為大家也看到自己的改變,自己的水平也好,這裡的大廈也好,學府也好,這裡都漸漸已經改變了,你會很後悔,所以這裡不能等"},{"start":517.809,"end":524.914,"text":"拜託 國境有什麼計劃 什麼好處理可以早日在2027年會建設國境配合不像你們說的 加上發泡雨也沒辦法跟大陸說 這就沒辦法 還要想出辦法不是沒辦法啦 有的很大方向啦三三的 有的沒的啦 當然啦"},{"start":544.589,"end":548.702,"text":"董給他三個 意思差不多啦 醫生"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":323,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時54分）主席，我們請……署長，你怎麼知道我要叫你，還沒叫你，你就站著等。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：署長，剛剛很多我們的好同事說過，今天就是要探討市區生活圈道路，剛剛最後你跟宏陸召委說的，你們會想辦法，但我想不出要想什麼辦法；第二點，前瞻第五期的預算到現在還沒處理好，但有的地方補助是因為有前瞻第五期計畫，現在它已經發包了，要怎麼處理？署長，你回答一下。"],["吳署長欣修：第一個就是生活圈的部分，其實都有通知地方政府，因為生活圈計畫是比較長期的，一個計畫可能四、五年……"],["王委員美惠：對，有的四、五年。"],["吳署長欣修：所以中間的部分，我們先跟它說今年如果這個部分……"],["王委員美惠：你怎麼跟他們說？公文給他們、還是請他們……"],["吳署長欣修：我們在檢討會議裡面都已經有跟他們說明了。"],["王委員美惠：檢討會議有跟他們說明了。"],["吳署長欣修：有跟地方政府說明在財政上要預有因應，後面我們只能看預算的處理情形再通知他們，這就是中央跟地方互相搭配，但是前瞻就比較明確，前瞻就是原本準備要核定的，現在就都先停下來，沒核定這件事情；第二、去年已經核定在執行中的，我們就照進度撥付錢到這個月，剩下就沒有了，因為照去年的預算，我可以匡定的額度到多少，我就匡列經費給你，剩下的地方政府要自己預有因應，這在檢討會議中都有跟他們說明了。"],["王委員美惠：檢討會議都有說明？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["王委員美惠：署長，針對嘉義市所補助的，像社區跟學校人行道的部分，目前是都有在做，這部分一定要市政府、各鄉鎮提出申請，我們才有辦法去努力，跟你們提出建議，如果地方政府不送，我們也不知道問題出在哪裡，到底哪一條路比較差、哪一條路是學校跟社區不好走的、要改善的？這一定要它們先提議出來，等提議出來，你們覺得哪一條路比較差可以先做……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：但這當中就像你說的，如果沒錢那就很糟糕了。"],["吳署長欣修：確實，有的就變成暫停提案，不讓他們再提了，尤其像嘉義市有不少提升人行安全及一些道路品質的部分，尤其道路品質部分對非六都衝擊大概會比較大。"],["王委員美惠：對嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對非六都衝擊是比較大，因為很多都要靠這個計畫把長年失修的道路做一些改善。"],["王委員美惠：對啦，如果不是六都，大都寄望地方的提議、送件，由中央審核之後再下去做，這樣就可以讓長久以來舊的道路可以翻修，對交通比較好，人行也比較安全。現在我比較擔心的是這些都要仰賴中央的補助，結果現在沒了，這是比較令人擔心的。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：就像今天大家有什麼問題拿出來探討，如果行政院提出解凍案報告，交付內政委員會審理，如果做得好，就可以來處理這些經費。以嘉義市來說，中央補助嘉義市，我認為都有改善，大家如果有時間，可以去騎、去走看看，都做得很好、品質也很好，所以這次的預算暫時凍結，對嘉義市來說影響非常的大。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：署長，你也知道我的個性，我不分藍綠、不分什麼人在地方執政，只要嘉義市的建設做得好比較重要，不要讓嘉義市的百姓認為中央在欺負地方，黨籍不同補助就不同，這是很大的侮辱。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我騎摩托車巡路的時候，也曾經跟你碰面好幾次，你也知道嘉義市非常需要中央的協助，尤其像海口寮這條路，已經做完半條，本席一直打拼，地方的建議、地方的計畫也已經漸漸完成，現在北社尾10米道路，署長，你知道這條路嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：知道。"],["王委員美惠：要怎麼處理？"],["吳署長欣修：現在可能暫時無法及時發包了，這部分先暫停下來。"],["王委員美惠：站在地方的立場，我很擔心，本來是希望這條路可以來改善北社尾的交通，結果現在沒辦法了，署長，有什麼方法嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：有先跟市府說了……"],["王委員美惠：我知道有說，但中央有什麼方法嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我當然希望預算趕快解凍，我們就可以儘速來核定這些部分。"],["王委員美惠：意思是解凍之後，嘉義市北社尾的10米道路就可以早日來做？"],["吳署長欣修：是，相關的部分我們會隨時通知市府，能夠做好……"],["王委員美惠：坦白說，市府很認真，民意代表也認真，我們就是手牽手，為了地方的建設打拼，有的人凍預算、有的人刪預算，他們根本不知道地方的艱苦在哪裡啊！5年前我剛來臺北的時候，你也已經在這個位置，你知道地方的需求是什麼、要改善的是什麼，有做得不好的地方，我們也要改善，本席曾經提醒你，人行道施作轉彎處的高低差對騎摩托車、腳踏車的人蠻危險，這部分中央跟地方要做好，而不是做完就跟我們說有改善了，其實一點小細節導致車禍，會造成很多遺憾。署長，本席想要跟你說，大家也有看到嘉義市的改變，嘉義市的垂陽路、大雅路、學府路都漸漸已經改變得很好，所以嘉義不能等，嘉義市的建設計畫拜託趕快早日配合，不然像你們跟地方說還沒發包也沒辦法，要想出辦法，不是沒辦法啦！有的人是詛咒讓別人死，刪減、凍結有的沒有的，凍結跟刪減的意思差不多啦！以上。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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個貿易這個有相關這個調整的部分的話"},{"start":157.379,"end":160.022,"text":"所以本席在這裡還是要建議行政院在討論這樣子的一個881的方案不能急就章"},{"start":172.176,"end":193.718,"text":"交通部的話貴為國家那麼重要的一個部會那在整個的方案的討論交通部沒有任何的同仁或是官員受邀參與討論那我坦白講當然說組的單位是經濟部這個大家都清楚那可是實際上影響的產業跟層面甚至包括後面帶動的整個包括物價膨脹通膨的問題啊所以說"},{"start":196.5,"end":219.05,"text":"這個部分我會建議交通部應該還是要主動跟行政院反映那這個應該是要相關這個貿易的關稅站的這一個部分如何來保護台灣的產業而且把傷害衝擊降到最低我覺得交通部應該也要有官員在裡面練習跟參與討論那同樣的我們看到了像現在來講6月23號台鐵的票價要漲"},{"start":219.87,"end":242.57,"text":"那同樣我們看到這個關稅的這個後面的效應通膨就是一定的啦那是不是有可能是在這個高鐵的部分那交通部也可以秉持著照顧民眾苦民所苦的情況還在他們在下一次高鐵的董事會會討論的時候也表達這個高鐵不要漲價的一個大家的意見"},{"start":245.233,"end":260.932,"text":"高鐵票價的部分目前我們是還沒有接受到說要漲價的這樣的一個請求未來如果他有提出來我想我們會站在剛提到也有包括一些社會責任的問題必須要去考量我想這部分應該"},{"start":262.373,"end":278.319,"text":"可以來反映嗎對 這個我們可以來想辦法來處理好 那因為時間有限那再來吉吉之縣原定在114年底南投縣的吉吉之縣預計要在115年的7月要完工通車那想要救救一下次長"},{"start":279.099,"end":302.432,"text":"那在過去來講有提到說在今年年底的話是可以趕工到今年年底的這個進度那是否可行本來到今年年底的趕工的部分還是可以好那謝謝那明年的七月我想這個我們也會掌握那希望是能夠在今年年底通車那因為那時候有提到這個那我想說再次做一下確認對我們今年年底是通車到幾級"},{"start":304.694,"end":332.057,"text":"因為那時候原本有提到今年的年中有機會就是通車到幾級那年底的話有機會全線通車那我在想其實那時候是包括在之前上個月的時候討論到是確實有這個訊息所以還是想要拜託董事長這邊是不是可以加快的來去進行這個好 這個我們來努力好 那再接著的話就是文化資產的部分"},{"start":332.657,"end":353.985,"text":"那在目前在集集火車站有沒有機會放置這個老舊的火車頭那我在想其實在鐵道文化那在我們這個集集之前其實確實是需要很多的這個文化資產甚至是文化的故事還來帶動這個鐵道文化集集之前讓更多的民眾成為觀光誘因那在目前來講的話是"},{"start":355.305,"end":368.251,"text":"以這個養護的方式介於交通部日管處12輛各式的老車還放置在小學堂跟鐵道車程鐵道文化園區那目前來講是在這裡還是要請董事長我們來積極來發揚鐵道文化跟文化資產的這個帶動觀光效益的一個方式那這個12個火車頭將來也希望能夠"},{"start":376.195,"end":400.902,"text":"在集集支線不管是龍泉還集集包括水里車程甚至濁水的部分那與其在這邊放置來來代管那不如的話就讓他呈現還甚至有一些鐵道的故事館把老照片來取出來還到時候來去帶動觀光在這個通車之前那是否可行我想這個跟委員報告剛提到這些帶動觀光的用文化帶動我想這個也是我們"},{"start":404.108,"end":421.524,"text":"台鐵公司努力的目標啦齁剛提到如果說地方還有什麼哪個地方有需求的時候可以提出來我們再討論看看他的可行性我想我這個我們會全力來促成好那如果到時候請這個公司內部大家都研議一下再把一個規劃方案再跟我們一起是好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝游委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時30分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["游委員顥：次長好。當然還是要肯定次長、包括臺鐵，都給予南投很多協助。在這裡還是想要先就教一下時事題，現在我們看到股市綠油油，因為受到貿易關稅的影響，今天大家都是一副愁雲慘霧的樣子。本席在禮拜六也看了行政院召開的記者會，當中提到880億的因應預算，出席的單位跟討論的單位沒有交通部，但是其實在交通部底下所管的許多會受到影響的，包括汽車零組件以及相關的運輸產業，不管是進口或出口，其實都會大受影響。我想就教一下次長，為什麼在行政院的880億裡面，在討論的過程中沒有邀請交通部，以及相關的產業，尤其是汽車產業或是交通部底下的相關產業受到的衝擊以及協助的方案為何？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這一次剛剛講到是因為關稅的問題，主要受影響的大概是出口的部分，出口部分主要是在經濟部，因為交通部裡面，譬如說剛剛講的汽車那部分，其實是經濟部在主導的，並不屬於交通部。"],["游委員顥：這個我知道，這個不是交通部……"],["伍次長勝園：是。因為是關稅問題，所以那天討論的時候，大概就只有找經濟部，沒有找交通部，是因為這個原因。"],["游委員顥：所以交通部底下相關的汽車或是運輸產業，通通都不會受到這些貿易或關稅或進出口的影響？"],["伍次長勝園：不是，因為剛剛講了，對外出口是由經濟部在管。"],["游委員顥：我知道是經濟部為主，但問題是邀集各部會進行跨部會討論的時候，通通都沒有邀集交通部參與討論嗎？還是有沒有任何一個單位或是同仁有參加行政院的會議？"],["伍次長勝園：應該有嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，連假期間於行政院召開的會議，我們沒有參加，但剛剛委員所提到的，如果因而產生貿易相關的調整這部分的話，那確實可能會牽涉到我們的汽車運輸業，因為它是負責物流的部分，這部分交通部會持續來關注。"],["游委員顥：本席在這裡還是要建議，行政院在討論這個880億的方案時不能急就章，交通部貴為國家那麼重要的一個部會，在討論整個方案時，交通部沒有任何的同仁或是官員受邀參與討論，我坦白講，當然主責單位是經濟部，這個大家都清楚，可是實際上影響的產業跟層面，甚至後面帶動的整個包括物價膨脹（通膨）的問題，所以這個部分我會建議，交通部應該還是要主動跟行政院反映，面對貿易相關關稅戰的議題，要如何保護臺灣的產業，而且把傷害衝擊降到最低，我覺得交通部應該也要有官員在裡面列席跟參與討論。","同樣地我們也看到了，像現在來講，6月23號臺鐵的票價要漲，同樣我們也看到關稅後面的效應，通膨這是一定的，是不是有可能在高鐵的部分，交通部也可以秉持著照顧民眾、苦民所苦的態度，在下一次高鐵的董事會討論的時候，也表達大家希望高鐵不要漲價的意見？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，高鐵票價的部分，目前我們還沒有接收到要漲價的請求，未來如果它有提出來，我想我們會站在剛剛提到的，也包括一些社會責任的問題必須要去考量，我想這部分應該……"],["游委員顥：可以來反映嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：對，這個我們可以想辦法來處理。"],["游委員顥：好。因為時間有限，再來，集集支線原訂在114年底……南投縣的集集支線預計要在115年7月完工通車，想就教一下次長，過去有提到說在今年年底的話是可以趕工到今年年底的進度，那是否可行？"],["伍次長勝園：本來到今年年底趕工的部分還是可以……"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：那明年的7月，我想這個我們也會掌握。"],["游委員顥：希望是能夠在今年年底通車，因為那時候有提到這個，我想再次做一下確認。"],["伍次長勝園：對，我們今年年底是通車到集集，明年7月是全線會通車。"],["游委員顥：因為那時候原本有提到，今年的年中有機會通車到集集，年底的話有機會全線通車，包括之前上個月在討論的時候確實有這個訊息，所以還是想拜託董事長這邊，是不是可以加快去進行？"],["伍次長勝園：是，好，這個我們來努力。"],["游委員顥：好。再來接著就是文化資產的部分，目前在集集火車站有沒有機會放置老舊的火車頭？我在想關於鐵道文化，我們集集支線確實需要很多的文化資產，甚至文化的故事，透過鐵道文化來帶動集集支線，成為吸引更多民眾來觀光的誘因。在目前來講是以養護的方式，借予交通部日管處12輛各式的老車，放置在小學堂跟車埕鐵道文化園區。在這裡還是要請董事長積極來發揚鐵道文化跟文化資產以帶動觀光效益的方式，這12個火車頭將來也希望能夠在集集支線，不管是龍泉，還是集集，包括水里、車埕，甚至濁水的部分，與其放置在那邊代管，不如就讓它呈現，甚至有一些鐵道的故事館，把老照片取出來，到時候還能在通車之前帶動觀光，這樣是否可行？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛提到用文化帶動觀光這件事，也是我們臺鐵公司努力的目標，剛剛提到地方如果還有哪個地方有需求的時候可以提出來，我們再討論看看它的可行性，我想這個我們會全力來促成。"],["游委員顥：好，到時候請公司內部大家多研議一下，再把規劃方案給本席。謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：是，好。謝謝委員。"],["主席（何委員欣純代）：謝謝游委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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對不起新建的時間要差不多要七八年欸如果說我們現在呢沒有辦法去想到這個兩年後可能會碰到的大塞車這個又不定案又一直拖拖拖拖我相信啦齁這個整個對民眾的生活還有那附近的交通的一個擁捨程度"},{"start":230.84,"end":252.975,"text":"我必須要提醒這個是中央地方大家一起要去努力面對跟解決的好不好拜託第二件事情同樣的也是要解決台中的交通楊局長上次有去參與考察就是台中捷運的藍線跟橘線會在台中現在的車站那邊會有一個交會的一個點那時候我們有考察的那一個"},{"start":254.216,"end":278.743,"text":"有建議一個新的方案就是希望能夠在這個轉弦的部分可以做一個好的一個討論跟方向那時候我記得楊局長也有提到還有當時候的部長有提到我們有成立一個台中市政府台鐵跟鐵道局三方的一個橫向的一個溝通小組那現在這個溝通的進度如何針對這個案子局長"},{"start":282.149,"end":298.992,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們在去年11月就邀了台中市政府交通局跟台鐵公司一起來討論那因為這個局限的部分呢原來是在比較上面O16那現在的方案應該就是會在靠近火車站跟南線的位置增加一個車站"},{"start":299.893,"end":326.028,"text":"就增加一站嘛對不對讓這個橘線跟藍線呢它的這個轉乘的這個距離能夠縮短嘛這樣才能夠方便這個轉乘的這些乘客不管是交通的便利性或舒適性或者是我們未來有一些國際觀光客要來台中台中一定要建立一個友善的一個交通環境嘛那國外觀光客才會來嘛對不對所以現在有確定了嗎"},{"start":326.988,"end":353.584,"text":"現在這個施政部已經把它修正在報告裡面但是報告裡面是一個構想的概念就是他認為說細部的部分要等到中規才能夠做後續的處理可是原則上就是在他現在的規劃裡面已經有納進去我們當時候考察的建議了嘛對不對好那未來我希望能夠盡速的這個來做決定然後這個橫向的一個聯繫小組的會議也要持續的來進行最重要的是也要讓"},{"start":354.625,"end":364.769,"text":"台鐵知道為什麼呢因為呢如果我們要新設一站的話那可能要運用到的跟台鐵的車站周遭的整體開發是有關係的對不對"},{"start":368.154,"end":386.885,"text":"這個我跟委員報告,這個上次委員提過這樣的問題這部分我已經台鐵公司在我們今年的二月一月還是二月的時候我們有招商那情況非常的好就很熱烈我們也特別講說這邊未來可能就是隧道會經過"},{"start":387.625,"end":405.378,"text":"但是那確確的位置還沒有還沒有定案因為他現在只是一個構想慢慢的會越來越明朗化我們未來會把這個放到我們的照片文件去跟城商講說會有這樣一個情況因為剛剛講這邊是增設一個其實對台鐵的開發我覺得是"},{"start":409.341,"end":427.077,"text":"是好的是有助力的是的是有利的是好的那對整體的周遭的不管是交通環境也好或者是友善環境也好或者是工商服務業的發展也好經濟的地方經濟的發展也好都是好事那對台鐵來講更是好事"},{"start":427.857,"end":443.337,"text":"對台鐵的台中車站的營運更是一大利多所以我建議一定要密切的地方政府台鐵跟鐵道局我們中央一定要密切的溝通合作好不好最後會議照委員的要求我們朝這方向來走好拜託是"},{"start":444.198,"end":466.574,"text":"拜託拜託最後今天我們在談的是文資我只有一個建議因為我們到目前為止看到台鐵的文資的建物的活化你們呢是給各個管理單位那我建議我們總公司這邊我們在上位應該針對台鐵的文資建物這些文資空間有一個整體的盤點跟思考方向"},{"start":467.799,"end":494.679,"text":"而且要納入專業的團隊進來就是專業的不管是在地的文史工作者也好或者是專業的文資的團隊也好或是文資的學者專家也好必須在我們台鐵的總公司裡面要有這樣子的一個專業的智囊團針對我們99處或者是越來越多的文資空間跟建築物的活化利用要有一個整體的策略思考跟方向"},{"start":495.399,"end":515.958,"text":"才不會現在是各個管理單位各行其事啊各行其事有的是委外有的是招標有的是怎樣那我覺得這個會讓我們地方也會擔心譬如說像豐原豐原我們上次去考察我們竟然在豐原車站的一個文資空間裡面現在被當作停車場使用"},{"start":518.395,"end":534.854,"text":"我覺得這是一個對我們來講是很不可思議的一件事情但是我可以理解我們這個管理單位是為了要活化所以他就只能想出這個活化的方式為什麼他沒有人幫他想其他的方式啊那在我們總公司這邊"},{"start":536.705,"end":558.156,"text":"總經理應該要納入相關的這樣子的一個專業的文資的學者專家也好或者是怎麼樣的一個團隊這個當然由你們自己去決定但是整體的一個考量跟整體的策略方向總公司這邊必須要有專業的人來幫助各個管理單位嘛好不好這是我的建議啦市長你覺得"},{"start":559.369,"end":583.407,"text":"可以嗎我覺得很合理而且應該這樣做才對應該要這樣子做那你覺得需要多久的時間去把這個整個機制建立起來我現在跟委員報告他現在其實台鐵現在目前也有成立所謂的文字科文字科的部分當然他跟那個自然開發處兩個會去做結合那至於剛剛講的裡面可能也許現在的人力我覺得稍嫌不足這個人力啦我們再去 對"},{"start":584.327,"end":612.947,"text":"人力不足還有加上對於文資的概念跟運用活化的一個專業度還不夠是我們盡量引進一個外界的那樣的比較有創意的進來這個我想我們會努力來做那你總共是有一個整體的一個策略方向給各個管理單位作為參考或是指引嘛不要讓他們現在個性歧視我再講一次我們的文資空間竟然活化成停車場這個我實在是大家都覺得"},{"start":614.366,"end":621.915,"text":"希望啦在他約到了之後我們可以用重新的思考方式來做文資的火化利用好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時20分）謝謝代理召委，謝謝許智傑召委。請伍次長及鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：請次長及楊局長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：你好。我第一個當然要關心臺中，楊局長一定知道我要問什麼。臺鐵在臺中鐵路高架化的最後一哩路就是臺鐵大慶到烏日段，我們上個會期也有到現場去考察過，請問一下現在的進度如何？次長知道嗎？還是局長回答？"],["伍次長勝園：我請局長來回答。"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，市政府有把修正報告送上來，但是對於經費分攤的方式市政府始終有一些堅持，希望能夠做所謂的專案協商，現在我們相關的審議機關是認為就只有一個版本來報行政院，所以我們還在跟市政府做溝通當中。"],["何委員欣純：局長，我希望儘快啦，溝通要有效率。至於臺中市政府，地方政府有它自己的意見，我們也尊重，如果迫不得已必須要多案併陳，我認為多案併陳也是一個方式，讓行政院來做政策決定。","我必須要說，這個為什麼重要，臺中鐵路高架化最後這一段沒有高架化，會阻礙了地方的發展；第二個，我也必須再提醒，高鐵周遭的交通問題是未來可能會最壅塞、也是我們中央及地方要共同去面對的一個問題。我為什麼一直希望這個可以趕快加速核定，是因為高鐵特區未來那個shopping mall成立之後，現在已經在塞車了，兩年後這個亞洲最大的shopping 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男子園區站我們"},{"start":255.142,"end":278.277,"text":"當時在開會的時候有特別提醒那個高雄市政府就是說這兩個站你必須要考慮一下它的佔據因為如果太近的話對整個的營運是不好的第二個它一定要代幣的功能如果沒有代幣功能增設這個以後那我就更慘了我分析給你參考你們就評估一下嘛"},{"start":279.378,"end":294.006,"text":"今天如果是沒有的話就全部都是用那旁邊那個紅色的是捷運紅線嘛嗯是啊剛好在台鐵南直站跟台鐵新左營站都在那嘛對啊所以我出出一路都是要對這兩站的"},{"start":296.167,"end":308.995,"text":"很多人流嘛那當然就是說如果有這個男子園區站他的好處是這樣就是說他要紓解這個捷運的人流啦你包括對台南車頭對我們鳳山車頭對屏東車頭他就是坐台鐵的"},{"start":315.031,"end":330.472,"text":"他如果要去台積電上班剛好20多個月就好了不用再在那個兩個捷運站那邊打捷不然你再坐到新左營站還是坐到台鐵男子站可以玩捷運對不對是不是那些都會打架"},{"start":331.701,"end":346.336,"text":"所以這個是一個蠻不錯的想法啦我是希望說很將來這一定是很多人在這裡所以這個我是大力的呼籲我們務必要完成啦希望說我們可以整個仔細去評估"},{"start":348.22,"end":365.338,"text":"我跟委員報告這部分我想我們會全力支持至於如果涉戰之後我還是希望未來不管是Telelogy在審核或是高雄市在提的時候那個代幣功能一定要放進去不然的話真的會很慘那個代幣功能一定要放進去"},{"start":365.518,"end":367.919,"text":"還有一項 不好意思 主席我再站一分鐘就好"},{"start":393.553,"end":398.081,"text":"那個空中奉承我們的吳董事長一直跟他答應說這個標籤就沒問題結果呢用過流標"},{"start":404.431,"end":419.957,"text":"現在我們是重新上網2月7號我們就再重新公告大概6月26號會這個截止收件我們期盤應該看是不是會這段時間4月1號停止收件沒人遞件就是留標6月26才到件截止收件"},{"start":433.402,"end":454.441,"text":"這個應該是總經理了解比較多啦還有機會嗎應該有啦 我們把那個履約年期也拉長然後固定權利金也下降然後稅賦也給他做優惠所以這次公開說明會蠻多廠商來參與我只有一個需求就是可以成功嘛"},{"start":455.78,"end":474.722,"text":"那至於說技術問題或者是說要怎麼樣跟你的潛在廠商在合理合法的原則下如何去鼓勵他們來來這邊把它招標完成將來可以正式營運這是我們鳳山人的期盼嘛所以應該沒問題"},{"start":477.126,"end":497.071,"text":"我們全力以赴啦因為已經三次私底下也都跟很多廠商有交換過意見因為前面一次兩次杜董都跟我說全力以赴第三次跟我說應該沒有問題了我現在想說哇他突然走了我想說這個重酌大任應該放在總經理身上應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":499.456,"end":510.173,"text":"我們會全力來達成所以你有沒有什麼...你贏算比杜董事長還保守就對了我們越保守走越遠一定會走到"},{"start":511.683,"end":530.559,"text":"越保守走越遠但是有不一定很保守就走不到啦所以還是有一些我覺得你多花一點心沒問題啦就是一定要去因為你那個就是條件問題嘛所以我就不相信辦不到這應該是辦得到的啦好不好把它完成啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝趙委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":704,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時11分）謝謝主席。請次長跟馮總經理。"],["主席：請次長、馮總。"],["伍次長勝園：召委好。"],["許委員智傑：次長好。杜董事長突然辭職，我們也覺得有一點意外，但是馮總經理一直都在，所以很多事情應該都了解，而且現在由次長暫代。想一想臺鐵事情真的很多，公司化以後不論舊有的沉痾、新有的挑戰，還是以前的事故、虧損與否等等，要改革的東西太多。剛剛有很多委員問到一些問題，包括燈光、軌道等等。其實我以前也曾經問過軌檢車的軌道檢查問題，日本也曾經因為軌距問題而產生事故，所以問題很多。既然已經公司化，我希望從頭到尾每一個單位與部門都要做徹底的檢討，畢竟問題實在太多，講都講不完。而且舊交通幫恐怕還有一些沉痾在裡面，我們不敢很明確地說到底是哪個單位，但隱約還是有一些影子沒有完全去除掉。雖然主管全部都換了，但是小鬼難纏，所以我覺得你們應該徹底做檢討並建立新風氣，看未來該怎麼樣帶領臺鐵走向光明正大、營運很好，且沒有發生事故的康莊大道。這個很辛苦，也不是那麼簡單，需要用一個不一樣的心態，重新去看待每一個部門跟單位。我語重心長……"],["伍次長勝園：是，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：次長代理董事長，馮總也一直都在。剛剛吳思瑤委員問到文化保存的事，事實上我也質詢過很多次。臺鐵要轉型其實就在六都風華跟鐵道秘境上，各個不同的點各有秘境，也有其文資，這個就看你們如何思考。若再加上把你們的宿舍改成民宿等等，類似這種不一樣的經營模態，我覺得其實是很有機會的。當然，這是浩大工程，所有站體都要思考，並彙整成好的點，希望臺鐵可以再多一點這方面的思考，彙整得更好。","第二個，對於之前杜董事長所答應的，我不知道馮總經理跟吳次長是不是延續下去？也就是楠梓百慕達跟台積電站的問題，這些之前都說過了，但現在你們董事長換人，所以我想要請問這部分是不是一樣？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這部分目前還是這樣子。現在高雄市政府正在進行可行性評估，至於叫台積電站還是叫楠梓……"],["許委員智傑：楠梓園區站。"],["伍次長勝園：當時在開會的時候有特別提醒高雄市政府，必須要考慮兩個站的站距，如果太近的話，對整個營運是不好的。第二個，一定要有待避功能，如果沒有待避功能，增設以後我們會更慘！"],["許委員智傑：我分析給你參考，你們評估一下。如果沒有，全部都是用捷運紅線，剛好臺鐵楠梓站、臺鐵新左營站全都擠在那裡……"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["許委員智傑：所有的進出都從這兩站，這樣人流會很多。如果有楠梓園區站，好處是可以紓解捷運的人流，包括從臺南車站、鳳山車站、屏東車站坐臺鐵去台積電上班的，就直接坐過來就可以了。"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["許委員智傑：不需要在那兩個捷運站打結。否則若坐到新左營站或臺鐵楠梓站再換捷運，這樣是不是全都在那裡打結？"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["許委員智傑：所以這是一個滿不錯的想法，將來這裡一定匯聚很多人才，所以我大力呼籲務必要完成，同時希望能仔細評估。"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這部分我們會全力支持，至於設站之後，未來不管是鐵道局審核或高雄市提的時候，待避功能一定要放進去，不然的話真的會很慘。"],["許委員智傑：當然。"],["伍次長勝園：待避功能一定要放進去。"],["許委員智傑：專業的交給你。"],["伍次長勝園：待避功能放進去以後，站體要稍微寬一點。"],["許委員智傑：所以我就說專業的交給你們，我管的是怎麼樣去紓解人潮，怎麼樣讓各地民眾上班方便，這兩個是我們地方人民的需求，專業的部分就拜託你們多用一點心把它規劃好。"],["伍次長勝園：應該的。"],["許委員智傑：不好意思，主席，再給我1分鐘就好。空中鳳城之前杜董事長說這次一定可以標出去，沒問題，結果又流標！"],["伍次長勝園：現在我們重新上網，2月27日已經重新公告，大概6月26日截止收件，我們期盼這段時間……"],["許委員智傑：4月1日停止收件，但沒人遞件，所以就流標了！"],["伍次長勝園：時間還沒到，6月26日。"],["許委員智傑：延到6月26日？"],["伍次長勝園：對，6月26日才截止收件。"],["許委員智傑：這個應該是總經理了解比較多，有機會嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：應該有，我們把履約年期拉長，固定權利金也下降，稅賦也給優惠，所以這次的公開說明會有滿多廠商來參與。"],["許委員智傑：我只有一個要求，就是可以成功。至於技術問題，或怎麼樣跟潛在廠商在合理合法的原則下鼓勵他們完成招標，並在將來正式營運，這是鳳山人的期盼！所以應該沒有問題？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們全力以赴。因為已經三次了，我們私底下也跟很多廠商交換過意見。"],["許委員智傑：前面一次、兩次杜董都說全力以赴，第三次說應該沒有問題了，但現在他突然走了，這個重責大任應該在總經理身上，應該沒有問題吧？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們會全力來達成。"],["許委員智傑：你的回答比杜董事長保守就對了？"],["馮總經理輝昇：越保守走越遠，一定會走到。"],["許委員智傑：越保守走越遠，但很保守就走不到了！我覺得你多花一點心，沒問題，因為那個是條件問題！"],["伍次長勝園：對、對，我們會努力。"],["許委員智傑：所以我就不相信辦不到，這應該是辦得到的，好不好？把它完成，好不好？"],["馮總經理輝昇：好。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。哪有什麼越保守走越遠，要開創！什麼越保守走越遠，等一下人家就給你亂寫喔！","接下來請沈發惠委員質詢，沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員不在場。","接下來請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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次長好這個今天有這個國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例的修正條文那個我先請教這個財政部"},{"start":41.836,"end":67.133,"text":"財政部國財長署的陳組長 請教你線型的條文 你看一下這個線型的條文線型條文特別提到這個政府因移撥台灣鐵路管理局及所屬機構金管之氏族資產由交通部設立基金處理員機構寄存之短期債務"},{"start":68.564,"end":78.603,"text":"我要請教的是說以現行的條文這個部分這個原來因為台鐵原來所管理的"},{"start":79.71,"end":101.625,"text":"有一個是他們自己的財產他們架構進來的有的是原來是國有的土地有的是原來省有的土地由他們來管理的部分對於原來省有或是國有的土地由台鐵管理然後經過公司化之後有了這個條文"},{"start":103.379,"end":123.217,"text":"那如果行政機關需要蓋公共設施需要撥用的時候他還可以依撥用的程序嗎政府移到這個基金的財產的話如果要撥用的話就必須要用有償撥用的方式"},{"start":123.971,"end":146.564,"text":"好 這個部分所以是需要去檢討的因為這個本來就不是台鐵的財產所以這個部分作為一個國產署這個本來就是公務尤其是針對原住民而言很重要的就是會有本來符合原基法20條增化邊保留地的"},{"start":147.584,"end":173.705,"text":"這個部分希望能夠繼續來進行這個部分那我了解你的意思請回座好時間的關係這個行政院114年度的施政方針特別提到要優化環島鐵路網優化東部公路交通網這樣的一個議題這我上次也有提出來這個"},{"start":177.588,"end":183.993,"text":"台鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫總共這個計畫的經費是64.1億元這是因為因應0403震災台鐵北迴線災禍搶修的復建那這個"},{"start":201.328,"end":213.725,"text":"已經送到交通部了,這個你們送到行政院了嗎?還沒有,他這個是在應該是3月的時候送過來那現在交通部目前在審議,審議沒問題我們盡快會往行政院來送"},{"start":216.828,"end":234.758,"text":"這個部分盡快,因為很急,院長也去過,部長也去了很多次,最起碼兩次以上所以這個部分趕快成合,才能夠符合行政院的施政方針這是第一個"},{"start":236.305,"end":253.038,"text":"第二個 剛才謝謝這個莊惠雄委員一再的關心這個台鐵花東票價優惠不應該調漲這個部分我自己也質詢過這個但是很遺憾的在114年2月5號台鐵公告票價將調漲平均調伍約26.8%"},{"start":265.116,"end":293.291,"text":"當初是這樣那我跟趙樂熊一樣委員一樣花蓮台東要盡量最好不要調漲但是你們今天公告了是今天公告的嗎還是什麼時候公告的還沒有公告還沒有公告還沒有公告的話就務必要一定要讓台東花蓮台東花蓮"},{"start":294.76,"end":320.663,"text":"對台鐵過去的台鐵是賺錢的你們回去查一下台鐵過去因為在西部西部縣因為有高鐵的競爭各方面的競爭所以都虧錢的是靠過去是靠花蓮台東都是賺錢的所以要回饋到"},{"start":322.25,"end":327.448,"text":"現在不要去調帳如果按照你們這個就一個一個"},{"start":329.18,"end":340.602,"text":"像按照你們現在原來的這是原來的嘛希望不要照這個像台北到花蓮本來是440的自強號現在要變成583到台東要變成935自強號所以這個部分要請交通部這邊務必"},{"start":354.385,"end":378.202,"text":"如果你們已經送到行政院了嗎?已經核准了我剛問你,你說還沒有?我們還沒公告但是行政院已經核准了今天的新聞有寫6月23啊對,那是要我們要實施那已經核定了,還有什麼方式?我跟委員報告,當然委員剛剛提到這個是應該這麼講,我們當時在擬定這個票價的時候"},{"start":382.492,"end":403.146,"text":"客運的部分過去立法院給我們的一個合理的報酬率是3%到5%我們現在因為考慮到這個社會各界的一些接受程度我們的報酬剩下0.36%左右0.36%喔也是用全台灣來去算的啦你要聽進去我剛剛的建議就是說因為花蓮、台東過去都替台鐵賺錢"},{"start":413.092,"end":438.45,"text":"好不好這個還可以改啊因為你6月23號才要正式啊不像剛剛這樣的話就變成我又是虧本了啦不會不會不會因為我現在利潤是已經擔心了就是虧本還不是政府補貼還不是人母的補貼現在他不會補貼 調完以後他不會補貼了這個部分好好地把它列入你們的一個執行 好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時3分）主席、各位委員。有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：財政部國產署。"],["主席：國產署。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好。今天是討論國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例的修正條文草案，我先請教財政部國有財產署的陳組長，請教你現行的條文，你看一下現行的條文，現行條文特別提到「政府應移撥臺灣鐵路管理局及所屬機構經管之適足資產，由交通部設立基金，處理原機構既存之短期債務」。我要請教的是，以現行的條文，因為臺鐵原來所管理的是他們自己的財產，是他們價購進來的，有的原來是國有的土地，有的原來是省有的土地，由他們來管理。對於原來省有或是國有的土地由臺鐵管理，經過公司化之後有了這個條文，如果行政機關需要蓋公共設施、需要撥用的時候，它還可以依撥用的程序嗎？"],["陳組長智華：政府移到基金的財產如果要撥用的話，就必須要用有償撥用的方式。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，所以這個部分是需要去檢討的，因為這個本來就不是臺鐵的財產。作為國產署，這個本來就是公物，尤其是針對原住民而言，很重要的是本來符合原基法第二十條增劃編保留地的部分，希望能夠繼續進行。對於這個部分，我了解你的意思了，時間的關係，您請回座。","行政院114年度的施政方針特別提到要優化環島鐵路網，優化東部公路交通網，對於這樣的議題，我上次也有提出，臺鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫的經費總共是64.1億元，這是因應0403震災臺鐵北迴線災後搶修的復建，這個已經送到交通部了，你們送到行政院了嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：還沒有，這應該是在3月的時候送過來，目前交通部在審議，審議沒問題後，我們會儘快往行政院送。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分要儘快。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為很急。"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長也去過，部長也去了很多次，最起碼兩次以上，所以這個部分趕快、趕快陳核，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["鄭天財Sra 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許志傑跟莊惠雄對調好 我們現在請莊惠雄委員謝謝莊惠雄 你請一下好不好我沒問題 我是很久來你這裡質詢 你們還是表示熱烈歡迎熱烈歡迎請我們交通部次長請次長台鐵公司總經理也有來"},{"start":29.416,"end":29.557,"text":"鳳姐你請鳳總"},{"start":34.949,"end":61.798,"text":"次長還有我們總經理本席在上個月在總諮詢的時候也向我們卓院長來提出來關心整個台鐵的一個票價調漲的一個問題那我們現在交通部你們現在是6月23號廣告調漲那我想這個問題我必須要在這個地方來再一步來做一個追問就是說對於整個台東跟花蓮兩個縣市的民眾來看的話"},{"start":66.44,"end":86.157,"text":"往返的因為有TPAS所以你們這個影響可能也沒有那麼大但是長程的台北到台東或者說你高雄到台東這個影響就大了本席在總之選擇社也提過這個地方再說明就是說你台北到台東"},{"start":88.154,"end":99.648,"text":"那各種的一個票價平均你的漲幅差不多20%、20%你台東到高雄段 莒光區間 你這到35%35%那還有志強號將近50%到50%"},{"start":107.077,"end":124.085,"text":"那當時呢我記得你們的士凱部長來對本席回應就是說會找台鐵來做一個研議那是不是會有有這個會員或者優惠的方案來做一個折扣當時啊我就具體的去做一個要求啦不要說台東啦那應該針對整個台東地區的特殊的一個票價的一個方案喔那我請問啦一個月過去之後應該有什麼樣的針對這個議題去研議規劃會有怎麼樣的一個方向"},{"start":136.793,"end":157.066,"text":"我跟委員報告,針對這一部分剛提到的,對花東算是路途比較長遠,除了剛講那個低延低減的這樣一個制度以外,另外我們現在在考慮說,對花東的部分是不是有所謂的在離峰期間給他比較的一個優惠,這目前我們在研議。"},{"start":158.087,"end":176.977,"text":"我這幾天一直在想啦就是說我們東部整個跨區的交通的一個優惠方案你說跨東地區因為你有TPAS的方案可以有效的支持在地的一個居民但對於跨區來講的話是不是有可能去考慮推出類似比如說回鄉票啊東部縣市往返那個"},{"start":177.897,"end":204.994,"text":"的一個優惠票來減少花東居民到其他縣市票價這樣的一個負擔讓東部的民眾可以更輕鬆的去跨區減少他的一個負擔這是第一個那第二個就是說你提高跨區的優惠的一個折扣的一個比率花東到台北台中高雄主要城市的一個票價的一個漲幅給這一些長途旅行的民眾有更多的一個折扣"},{"start":206.755,"end":233.009,"text":"漲價帶來的全部都是壓力那第三個就是說譬如說你週末跟假日的一個通行的優惠的一個政策那譬如說我們針對東部民眾週日或者假日的旅遊的一個需求你推出週末跟假日的一個通行優惠的一個這些票種那這個不僅可以促進整個國內的一個旅遊也可以幫助民眾在假期出行的時候減輕票價的一個壓力這個部分是不是"},{"start":233.849,"end":236.434,"text":"次長 剛才你們補充說要討論的我現在跟你們講這個已經夠具體了不曉得你們的考慮是怎麼樣"},{"start":244.656,"end":265.592,"text":"優惠的部分我剛看了幾個建議當然委員的建議都非常的具體而且非常的好不過可能還是考慮到所謂的整體的一個衡平原則這部分我想那我們再研議好不好剛提到我們當然會針對於花動的部分盡量想看看有沒有什麼方式可以去做出一些折扣出來"},{"start":266.092,"end":284.856,"text":"因為你們一整個衣紗就算公告啦,這個衝擊都是難免啦反應成本這個都很合理啦,一般民眾其實也不會跟你說這個是太跳通但問題是喔,你看我剛提到的,不管到高雄,我賣50%的,他企業賣50%的,他很可怕的一個丈夫啊"},{"start":288.257,"end":299.861,"text":"也就是說過去當然就是為了減輕民眾的負擔你們把整個成本給吸收了那你現在就合理的反應票價沒有人會說這不對但問題是你這個條幅像比如說高雄到台東的到花東的或者說你從台北北部到花東的"},{"start":310.485,"end":328.798,"text":"這個漲幅確實是很大所以本席就非常具體的提出這三樣就是說你整個東部跨區的優惠的一個方案還有提高跨區的優惠折扣的一個比率跟週末跟假日通行的優惠的一個政策我相信這個方向來看的話是"},{"start":329.699,"end":341.054,"text":"交通部這個地方啊 你們責無旁貸啊你不一定也跟我說會的 你們會討論的我覺得很顯然看起來你們現在還沒有針對這個部分有很具體的措施要出來你們現在只想說六月起什麼要調 要調但是這個"},{"start":343.82,"end":358.808,"text":"本來你部長是用折扣的方式來處理嘛對我們現在目前還是朝花東的部分用所謂折扣的方式彈性票價的方式來進行處理啦這個還是我們的方向要這樣去做啦那如果跟委員報告我們現在這個條長其實已經"},{"start":361.509,"end":381.586,"text":"故意到社會的一個接受程度我們的客運的部分它的報酬率只有0.36%而已就是幾乎等於0也就是說沒賺錢啦我用多少我就收多少一般之前那個立法案給我們的公司它其實是合理報酬率3到5%"},{"start":383.649,"end":405.384,"text":"我們也沒用到3%我們連下限都沒有用到就是用幾乎用零的方式來做就是考慮到說不要一次漲幅不要那麼大這其實對我們的成本對台鐵公司現在成立公司他的壓力真的也是非常的大這個我當然都了解啦你像譬如說從我們那個佳東訪寮有時候我看你們的那個"},{"start":407.229,"end":423.204,"text":"試駕列車,一個車裡面如果坐了沒幾個人,那車子也一定撩錢但問題是整個鐵路的運輸因為我們要肩負社會責任,這一定要那當然,社會責任,甚至於單缸起整條鐵路,就不是說撩錢後就可以像經營企業那樣修修,不可能那又牽扯到國安的一個問題"},{"start":429.91,"end":453.216,"text":"那但是這個票價的一個調漲那這一次來看的話有一些區段對東部來講的話因為它的地形本來我們在建置整個鐵路啊你像比如說你說雙軌啊還有你南迴歸線那個部分啊怎麼樣去你們現在連那個方案連合訂都還沒合訂啊那長期以來對東部來講的話"},{"start":455.817,"end":478.232,"text":"交通上對他們來講的話就不太公平啦就不太公平啦所以你整個票價在調漲的時候也必須要有特殊的去做差別待遇是合理的啦如果說你在西部縣市你全部說哪一個縣市要求跟你說哪一個地方要折扣這又沒道理嘛你沒有理由去做差別待遇嘛但是你整個鐵路建設整個交通建設東部跟西部確實因為地形上"},{"start":478.672,"end":503.513,"text":"有存在那麼大的一個差異性你這個時候來做差別待遇反而你沒有去做才是不合理啊所以上次在總質詢因為部長也去講說希望用折扣的一個方式那我在此更今天更具體的提出這三樣的一個方式希望我們交通部這邊來進一步做一個思考我相信啦我們政策你勢必到最後也會往這方面去做思考啦因為你一個調整要到50%的有時候真的是那些人動不了啦"},{"start":506.636,"end":525.797,"text":"而且,你看牽扯到整個觀光,人一定要記錄嘛,你交通成本你也知道,大家一定覺得我負擔太大啊,那你到最後又要來救這個觀光,那你這個台鐵,你跟全部都是交通不可以帶啊,那這個部分應該是做整體的一個考量,也降低"},{"start":526.898,"end":541.226,"text":"這樣的一個調漲的這麼大的一個幅度對老百姓這樣的一個交通成本的一個負擔我認為是非常可行的啦這個趕快去做一個思考來做出對社會做一個回應好不好好市長謝謝 橫瑜謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":628,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時53分）謝謝召委，你笑一下，好不好？"],["主席：不是，我沒問題，我只是擔心他沒有辦法來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我很少來你們這裡質詢，你們要對我表示熱烈歡迎。"],["主席：熱烈歡迎！"],["莊委員瑞雄：請交通部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：臺鐵公司總經理也有來，請總經理。"],["主席：請馮總。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長還有總經理，本席上個月在總質詢的時候，也向卓院長提出關心臺鐵票價調漲的問題，現在交通部是6月23號要公告調漲嘛。"],["伍次長勝園：嗯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我想這個問題我必須要在這個地方再進一步地做個追問，對於臺東跟花蓮兩個縣市的民眾來看的話，往返的因為有TPASS，所以影響可能沒有那麼大，但是長程的，臺北到臺東或者高雄到臺東，這個影響就大了。本席在總質詢的時候也提過，在這個地方再說明一次，就是臺北到臺東各種的票價平均漲幅差不多20%，臺東到高雄段的莒光、區間大概35%，還有自強號將近50%。當時我記得你們世楷部長回應本席說會找臺鐵來研議，看是不是會有會員或者優惠的方案來做折扣，當時我就具體地去做一個要求，不要說臺東，應該針對整個臺東地區研議一個特殊的票價方案。我請問，一個月過去了，你們針對這個議題有什麼研議、規劃，或是有怎麼樣的一個方向？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，針對這一部分，剛剛提到的，花東算是路途比較長遠。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["伍次長勝園：除了剛剛講的那個遞遠遞減的制度以外，另外我們現在在考慮對花東的部分，是不是要在離峰期間給它比較好的優惠，這個目前我們在研議。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我這幾天一直在想東部整個跨區交通的優惠方案，你說花東地區因為有TPASS的方案可以有效地支持在地居民，但對於跨區來講的話，是不是有可能去考慮推出類似回鄉票、東部縣市往返的優惠票，來減少花東居民到其他縣市的票價負擔？讓東部的民眾可以更輕鬆地去跨區，減少他的負擔，這是第一個。","第二個，提高跨區優惠的折扣比率，調整花東到臺北、臺中、高雄等主要城市票價的漲幅，給這一些長途旅行的民眾有更多的折扣，漲價帶來的全部都是壓力。","第三個，比如說週末跟假日的通行優惠政策，比如說我們針對東部民眾週末或者假日的旅遊需求，推出週末跟假日通行的優惠票種，這不僅可以促進整個國內的旅遊，也可以幫助民眾在假期出行的時候減輕票價的壓力，這個部分是不是……次長，上次你們部長說回去要討論，我現在跟你說這些已經夠具體了，不曉得你們的考慮是怎麼樣？"],["伍次長勝園：優惠的部分，我剛剛看了幾個建議，當然，委員的建議都非常地具體，而且也非常地好，不過可能還是要考慮到整體的衡平原則，這部分我想我們再研議，好不好？剛剛提到，我們當然會針對花東的部分儘量想看看有沒有什麼方式，可以去做出一些折扣出來，這部分我們來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：因為你們6月23號就要公告了，這個衝擊都是難免的，反映成本這個都很合理，一般民眾其實也不會跟你說這個太跳tone，但問題是你看我剛剛提到的，到高雄漲50%耶！那是很可怕的漲幅，也就是說，過去為了減輕民眾的負擔，你們把整個成本吸收了，你現在合理地反映票價，沒有人會說這不對，但問題是你這個調幅，比如說高雄到臺東、到花東的，或者是從臺北、北部到花東的，這個漲幅確實是很大。所以本席非常具體地提出這三樣，就是整個東部跨區的優惠方案，還有提高跨區優惠折扣的比率，跟週末、假日通行優惠的政策，我相信以這個方向來看的話，你們交通部在這個地方責無旁貸，你們部長也跟我說會、你們會討論，但現在很顯然看起來，你們針對這個部分還沒有很具體的措施，你們現在只是講說6月23日要調，但是這個本來你們部長是說要用折扣的方式來處理嘛。"],["伍次長勝園：對，我們目前還是朝花東的部分用折扣的方式、彈性票價的方式來進行處理，這個還是我們的方向，要這樣去做。跟委員報告，我們現在這個調漲其實已經顧慮到社會的接受程度。客運的部分，它的報酬率只有0.36%而已，幾乎等於0，也就是沒賺錢，我們用多少就收多少。之前立法院給我們的公式，一般的合理報酬率是3%到5%，我們沒用到3%，我們連下限都沒有用到，幾乎用0的方式來做，考慮到一次漲幅不要那麼大，這其實對我們的成本、對臺鐵現在成立公司的壓力真的是非常大。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我當然都了解，譬如說從佳冬、枋寮，有時候我看你們的列車裡面也沒坐幾個人，想也知道一定是賠錢，但問題是整個鐵路的運輸……"],["伍次長勝園：因為我們要肩負社會責任，這是一定要的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然，不僅社會責任，甚至擔扛起……整條鐵路不是像經營企業一樣，賠錢之後就可以把它收一收，這是不可能的。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這也牽扯到國安的問題。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是針對票價的調漲，從這一次來看，有一些區段對於東部來講，因為它的地形本來在建置整個鐵路……比如說雙軌還有南迴歸線那個部分怎麼樣去……你們現在那個方案連核定都還沒核定，長期以來對東部來講，交通上對他們來講就不太公平，所以整個票價在調漲時也必須要特殊地去做差別待遇，這是合理的。如果在西部縣市，哪一個縣市跟你要求哪一個地方要折扣就沒道理，你沒有理由去做差別待遇，但是整個鐵路建設、交通建設，東部跟西部確實因為地形上存在那麼大的差異性，這個時候的差別待遇，反而你們沒有做才是不合理。上次在總質詢，部長也希望用折扣的方式，我今天在此更具體地提出這樣的方式，希望交通部進一步去思考。我相信你們勢必到最後也會往這方面去思考這個政策，因為你們一調就調整到50%，有些人真的會受不了。而且牽扯到整個觀光，人一定要進去，交通成本若增加，大家一定覺得負擔太大，到最後你們又要來救觀光，你們臺鐵全部都在交通部底下，這個部分應該去做整體的考量，降低這麼大的調漲幅度對老百姓交通成本的負擔，我認為是非常可行的，趕快思考一下，對社會做一個回應，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，謝謝。總經理，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：等一下徐富癸不是可以代嗎？是欣純嗎？好，OK。","請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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我沒打啦是可以用的我們人民黨跟民眾黨的立委這樣打下去之後這未來要怎麼接聽啊"},{"start":207.498,"end":231.553,"text":"確實會有困難第一個現在的中央政府總預算再加上目前立法院還是要求行政院自己要處理636億要刪或者是動哪一個部會的預算那所有的部會包括我們在內政部所屬的部分除了租金補貼還有一些道路的部分然後還有其他衛福部長照有關或者是國防部所以你要刪哪個地方動哪個地方完全是沒有辦法處理"},{"start":234.335,"end":256.833,"text":"所以立法院如果沒有跟行政院達成共識的話我們其實很難把114年的中央政府總預算好好的執行下去那如果參照以往的經驗所有的解凍的部分的話以往我們1月就提這個解凍案可是真正解凍書面而且是書面不是專案解凍完到真正可以執行都是到5月或6月"},{"start":257.934,"end":276.403,"text":"現在已經是4月這個專案報告也好或是說立法院跟行政院還沒有達成共識說這個636億要如何處理的狀況之下尤其是像我們這個是部會裡面所牽涉到不管是下售到縣市地方政府或者是有些跨縣市的部分的話沒有人敢事先先用啦"},{"start":277.423,"end":296.035,"text":"尤其是如果你要有招標程序因為我常常對外講就是我們有一些預算你是一筆的一筆10億20億如果你沒有辦法10億20億都給的話我們不可能事情做一半然後好像變成說只是做一下紙上作業沒有完全做很好的政策的評估的話會有困擾因為我們的時候審查的關係造成我們撥到地方政府的時候他們資訊率也要很大"},{"start":302.037,"end":310.823,"text":"這是一環扣一環啊是啊是啊我又不能先去找啊也是一樣預算要這樣通過我想說我們還是大家一起來努力啦我們當然是尊重監督啦但是這個監督能夠好好的那個大家來溝通的話其實會比較好而不是說就砍頭式的這樣把預算弄掉的話對我們來講是非常大的困擾我想我要替我們屏東鄉親來發聲我們也不希望因為總預算卡關造成這個整個這個屏東的建設受到影響啦"},{"start":331.678,"end":359.21,"text":"那我想最後一個針對這個我們人行環境的改善署長過去我想我們都支持這個交通便捷也贊成這個人行環境的改善但是目前還是有發生一些的百姓對這個改善後的狀況有雜音那尤其很多的這個商圈包含我們很多的這個原本鄉親這個交通使用的習慣"},{"start":360.45,"end":376.341,"text":"因為改變之後他們都覺得到底這改是好還是不好包含我們有時候貨車要停車的空間也不見了消費者的車子也不曉得停到哪裡去這就這樣的一個亂象你們的街道醫生能夠發揮什麼樣的功能"},{"start":378.752,"end":404.601,"text":"跟委員報告因為的確在地方政府在執行就會像剛剛委員所講的有時候他的因地制宜的時候他過度強調我就是要做出來我就是要做出來但是事實上像我們人行道跟騎樓也可以並濟來考慮也就是說當你再去考慮這個人行道的時候你跟騎樓之間的互動你到底要怎麼去處理而不是我一定"},{"start":405.49,"end":428.755,"text":"當然有時候委員會建議說你盡可能做實體或做標線但是如果另外一個可能我跟騎樓之間的關係如果處理的好那我也不一定要弄到這樣就不會像委員所講的有時候要擴增出來之後很多停車駕駛不可以甚至下回停車駕駛不可以蘇理你看這個圖面上顯示的你看人行道圍出來"},{"start":431.283,"end":457.895,"text":"車輛人車正道還是沒有改善啊我了解我的意思是說所以他在調的過程當中其實要多一點討論啦尤其跟地方地方民眾的一些討論這樣會比較妥適所以為什麼我們的計畫現在永續的部分不會要求他一定要當年做完因為過去前瞻的部分會需要但永續為什麼要可以讓他有一到兩年就是要多一些時間去溝通去調整"},{"start":459.275,"end":480.032,"text":"那避免產生這種民眾不適應我在我們屏東好幾個路口是我發現我們的標誌 標線都做到100分可是我們問了很多人你知道這什麼意思嗎看不懂啦 會覺得啦所以有什麼需要溝通 那些東西需要溝通啊做到100分的標準難道不會有車禍發生嗎還是發生啊這是要怪政府還是要怪北省"},{"start":484.431,"end":499.261,"text":"沒有 當然 我有我們的報告啦我剛才說的那個溝通 那個溝通包括說民眾的使用習慣尤其我們南部都是騎摩托車的習慣他有時候機車的習慣會跟行人的習慣本身就很容易衝突"},{"start":500.282,"end":511.136,"text":"所以你今天要修正這樣的一個機制出來的時候政府在相關的宣導、觀念的功能上都還有很大的改進空是,所以我還是建議不要等到完工之後再來檢測再來檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測"},{"start":515.461,"end":539.746,"text":"不才濟啦 又這個狀況啦我跟你講一下我們以前的經驗通常這麼大的路口要改善的話大概會經過縣政府的道安匯報那這個道安除了縣政府以外還有像交通警察或者是地方上的社區發展或者是這個里長一起來提供意見也就是說我們要改善這些路口上面的交通除了降低他的死亡死傷以外最重要是要能夠合用不是好看啦不是好看就好 漂亮漂亮這樣那這個不是我們要"},{"start":545.487,"end":565.439,"text":"本來我贊成你的看法是我希望多溝通這個部分要做得對 但是在多溝通的過程當中就是變成要有人在那個地方講清楚大家可以各退縮一下那個我們也處理過像台北市的一樣那個有收到的人行照就大得不得了就兩三輛的貨車那麼寬可是他們就這樣做那就可以降低他們的市場對 部長所以我說的說明會要開說明會一定要開而且不是做交代的開法"},{"start":573.303,"end":589.713,"text":"一定要能夠把偷人家但是道安會報在縣市政府希望能夠照開會比較好根據他的案件還是希望這個能夠在有時候在施工或是規劃的時候因為我們不希望說這個做好的時候是為了讓警察去開罰單我想不是這個意願不是一百分的人"},{"start":590.253,"end":616.009,"text":"環境就能夠解決一些問題不是不是要能夠實用而且要合乎大家的日常生活譬如說我知道你講的部分譬如說圓環或者是剛好在做生意或是夜市那會有晨昏之間的這個交通的狀況需要處理那這個都大家要講清楚那地方上的人提供意見的話通常這個道路施工單位尤其是以國土署為主的都會尊重地方的意見對我們一起來努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":917,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時7分）謝謝主席，我們有請劉部長跟吳署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好，署長好。部長，過去您的政治資歷非常的豐富，從地方到中央歷練過很多的職務，但是我想您也感慨萬千，尤其針對我們這一屆立法院很多議案的審查，甚至很多總預算的審查，我想你有很多的感慨，所以你之前也開了一個記者會，針對前瞻基礎建設一些相關的規定與預算的部分提出看法。過去屏東縣在財力有限的狀況之下，許多生活圈道路還有市區道路的改善必須仰賴中央來支持，目前前瞻基礎建設第五期的預算還沒有完成三讀程序，總共有439個案子卡住了，請教部長，目前屏東縣有幾個案子，部長這邊了解嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我先請署長講一下幾個案子。"],["徐委員富癸：好。"],["吳署長欣修：目前來講，執行中的有37案，大概3.2億的經費。"],["徐委員富癸：後續會不會因為總預算跟財劃法而影響進度？"],["吳署長欣修：最主要前瞻如果沒有審查的話，這些案子後續的經費大概就會停止。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！但問題是目前看起來排審的時間也遙遙無期啦！針對這樣的狀況，部長跟署長有沒有什麼樣的看法？"],["劉部長世芳：跟徐委員報告，徐委員當然對於這些前瞻的預算非常的關心，前瞻預算第五期確實到目前為止是遙遙無期，所以我們國土署也非常的努力，原來已經跟縣政府講好的、已經是既定的，然後我們已經有核定的部分的話，我們就先走；其他的話，就是縣政府先報上來，我們再繼續做審核的工作，看看前瞻預算有沒有可能可以有其他方式來做比較好的溝通，否則大概是沒辦法一直下去，因為前瞻這是第五期了，再下來就我所了解應該也沒有第六期的前瞻預算，這裡面還有一部分可能要回歸到是由中央政府或是地方政府的公務預算來支出。另外一個，我們也在考慮未來的財政收支劃分法，如果確定是在立法院通過，完全沒有其他的覆議或是其他爭議的話，財政收支劃分法裡面可能有一部分的預算會請縣市地方政府自行來負擔。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想你非常清楚縣市政府跟中央的權責是不一樣的，尤其過去很多事權的部分都必須仰賴中央支持，但是你這樣劃分後，我想未來很多縣市，即使有錢也沒辦法執行，而且這個錢確實也是不夠，部長……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們沒有做劃分啦！是不能用，我們也不敢做劃分。"],["徐委員富癸：不是啦！是國民黨跟民眾黨的立委這樣劃分後，未來要怎麼執行？"],["劉部長世芳：確實會有困難。第一個，現在的中央政府總預算，再加上目前立法院要求行政院自己要處理636億，要刪或者是凍結哪一個部會的預算，所有的部會包括我們內政部所屬的部分，除了租金補貼，還有一些道路的部分，還有其他像衛福部有關長照的預算或者是國防部，所以要刪哪個地方或凍結哪個地方是完全沒有辦法處理……"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們中央執政沒有分。"],["劉部長世芳：立法院如果沒有跟行政院達成共識，我們很難把114年的中央政府總預算好好的執行下去，如果參照以往的經驗，所謂解凍的部分，我們1月就提解凍案，可是真正解凍是書面不是專案，解凍完到真正可以執行，都是要到5月或6月，現在已經是4月，這個專案報告也好，或者立法院跟行政院針對這636億要如何處理的狀況，都還沒有達成共識，尤其像我們部會裡所牽涉到，不管是下授到縣市、地方政府或者是有些跨縣市的部分，沒有人敢事先先用，尤其是如果要有招標程序，我常常對外講，我們有些預算是一筆的，例如一筆10億或20億的預算，如果沒有辦法10億或20億都給的話，我們不可能事情做一半，然後就變成只是做紙上作業，沒有完全做很好的政策評估，會有困擾。"],["徐委員富癸：有時候因為我們審查的關係，造成撥到地方政府的時候，讓他們執行壓力很大。"],["劉部長世芳：這是一環扣一環啊！"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我們也不能先去借，也是一樣要預算可以通過。"],["徐委員富癸：還是大家一起來努力。"],["劉部長世芳：我們當然是尊重監督，但是監督能夠好好的溝通，其實會比較好，而不是砍頭式的把預算弄掉，對我們來講是非常大的困擾。"],["徐委員富癸：我要替我們屏東鄉親來發聲，也不希望因為總預算卡關，造成整個屏東的建設受到影響啦！","最後請教一個問題，針對人行環境的改善，署長，過去我們都支持交通便捷，也贊成人行環境的改善，但是目前還是有發生一些百姓對改善後的狀況有雜音。尤其在很多的商圈，原本我們鄉親就有很多交通使用的習慣，但在人行環境改變之後，他們覺得到底這樣的改變是好還是不好？包含有時候貨車要停車的空間不見了，消費者的車子也不曉得要停到哪裡，針對這樣的亂象，你們的街道醫生能夠發揮什麼樣的功能？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，的確地方政府在執行就會像剛剛委員所講的，有時候因地制宜會過度強調就是要做出來，事實上，像我們人行道跟騎樓也可以併計來考慮，也就是當考慮人行道與騎樓之間互動的時候，到底要怎麼去處理？而不是一定……當然有時候委員會建議盡可能做實體或做標線，但是如果有另外一個可能，跟騎樓之間的關係處理得好，也不一定要弄成這樣，就不會像委員所講的，為了要擴增出來，造成很多停車格不見，甚至卸貨停車格也不見了。"],["徐委員富癸：所以你看這個圖面上顯示的，人行道劃出來後，人車爭道還是沒有改善啊！"],["吳署長欣修：了解，我的意思是在調整的過程當中，要多一點討論，尤其是跟地方、民眾的一些討論，這樣會比較妥適，所以為什麼我們的計畫在永續的部分，不會要求一定要當年做完，因為過去前瞻的部分會需要，但永續為什麼可以讓它有一到兩年？就是要多一些時間溝通及調整，避免民眾產生不適應。"],["徐委員富癸：署長，我發現在我們屏東好幾個路口的標誌、標線都做到100分，可是我們問了很多人，你知道這什麼意思嗎？看不懂啦，「花膏膏」！"],["吳署長欣修：所以為什麼這些需要溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：做到100分的標準，難道就不會有車禍發生嗎？還是發生啊！這是要怪政府還是要怪百姓？"],["吳署長欣修：向您報告，剛才說的那個溝通，包括民眾的使用習慣，尤其南部都是習慣騎摩托車，有時候機車的習慣會跟行人的習慣，本身就很容易衝突，所以今天要修正這樣的機制出來的時候，政府在相關的宣導、觀念的溝通上，都還有很大的改進空間。"],["徐委員富癸：是，所以我還是建議不要等到完工之後，再來檢討這個檢討那個，這個狀況百姓也覺得是在浪費錢啦！"],["劉部長世芳：我跟您講一下我們以前的經驗，通常這麼大的路口要改善的話，大概都會經過縣政府的道安會報，除了縣政府道安會報以外，還有像交通警察、地方上的社區發展，或者是里長會一起來提供意見，也就是我們要改善這些路口上面的交通，除了降低死亡、受傷以外，最重要是要能夠合用，不是好看就好，漂亮、漂亮的，這樣不是我們要的理由。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我贊成你的看法，我是希望多溝通這個部分……"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是在溝通的過程當中，要有「頭人」在那個地方講清楚，大家可以各退縮一下。我們也處理過像臺北市的一樣，有時候它的人行道大得不得了，有2～3輛的貨車那麼寬，可是他們就這樣做，可以降低死傷，所以要因地制宜。"],["徐委員富癸：對，部長，所以我說的說明會一定要開，而且不是只是做交代的開法，一定要能夠把「頭人」……"],["劉部長世芳：但是道安會報在縣市政府，希望能夠召開會議比較好，根據它的案件……"],["徐委員富癸：還是希望能夠在施工或是規劃的時候……"],["劉部長世芳：因為我們不希望這個做好的時候，是為了讓警察去開罰單啦！不是這個意願。"],["徐委員富癸：不是100分的人行環境就能夠解決交通的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，是要能夠實用，而且要合乎大家的日常生活，譬如你講圓環的部分，或者是剛好在做生意或是夜市，會有晨昏之間的交通狀況需要處理，這個大家都要講清楚，地方上的人有提供意見的話，通常道路施工單位，尤其是以國土署為主的，都會尊重地方的意見啦！"],["徐委員富癸：我們一起來努力，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","下一位請吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員不在。","下一位請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","下一位請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：今天早上股市一下就下跌了兩千多點，現在全民團結不分朝野都在應對川普關稅的核彈，可是我發現民進黨好像一直在造謠當中，3月30日還在講租屋補貼被凍結200億，剛才許宇甄委員也問你，為什麼還在拗這個題目？還在造謠……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛講得非常的清楚，您可以去看一下，包括行政院所公布的或者立法院所公布的部分，我完全否認，沒有在造謠。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先問你，所有的在野黨、所有立法委員這次有……部長，你拿出來給我看，有任何一個立法委員提案凍結了200億的租屋補貼的錢嗎？拿出來給我看。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我已經講過了，在行政院有一筆400億的預算，是我們內政部要求要擴大租金補貼，由去年的50萬戶增加到75萬戶，所以這個是新撥補的，要有200億元到內政部，然後內政部再給國土管理署的部分，台灣民眾黨所說的刪10%、凍10%，41.4億的部分是內政部國土署，但是我現在所指的是行政院給內政部的200億租金補貼，也就是針對擴大租金補貼跟新社宅的部分，這也在卓院長的報告裡面有提到。"],["張委員啓楷：你拿出來給我看，有任何一個立委提了凍結200億嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在立法院三讀通過的過程當中，就是由兩個黨團舉手刪掉的。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有這個提案啊！有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：凍結的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：凍結？你拿出來給我看，有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我唸一下可以嗎？您方便嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：請說。"],["劉部長世芳：中央政府總預算增加2,806億，裡面的擴大租金補貼跟新社宅是有200億元，也就是說，如果114年的中央政府總預算沒有通過的話，這個是屬於新增的，那行政院就沒有辦法撥補200億給我們的住宅基金，報告委員。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有人提案去凍結這200億啊！任何一筆都沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：但是在立法院的三讀通過的，我是以三讀通過為準，所以我有跟委員解釋……"],["張委員啓楷：你把它灌成所有新興的嘛，對不對？就沒有人砍掉這筆預算……"],["劉部長世芳：不是、不是，不是換成，它本來就是新的預算。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["劉部長世芳：它不是延續性的預算。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有人有任何提案去砍了你說的這兩千多億嘛，更沒有砍你所謂的這200億啊，有嗎？你提任何一個案子給我看啊，你這個是完全擴大，而且是扭曲的，跟住宅補貼有關係嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我是用最後……"],["張委員啓楷：來，部長，真正有過提案的就是上個禮拜，上一次我不是有講過嗎？有幾個關鍵，第一個，它已經排除，就沒有砍任何一毛錢，關於租屋的補貼，對不對？這是上一次我清清楚楚給你看的，你有看到我們的提案嘛，這是第一個。第二個，關鍵字就是你說的，它一下子增加了105%，去年是編202億，對不對？今年編多少？414億耶！更重要的，我們來上一下小學的數學，好不好？你一直在講說被凍了40億，所以沒錢可用，對不對？但你增加了1倍，414億，刪了2.73，這2.73是已經排除，不包括租屋補貼喔。好，終究是刪完之後凍了10%，40億，我已經問過你了，我還行文給內政部，去國土署問喔，你的租屋補貼一年是多少？372，事實上，到目前為止，今年搞不好還花不到372啊，你到11月底、到12月錢都夠用啊。所以三個關鍵，第一個已經排除，沒有刪，對不對？第二個，你增加了2倍之後，你剩下的錢終究凍了10%，你都足夠用到11月底、12月底啊，怎麼會有問題？是不是這樣？這個數學部長應該有看懂，對不對？你的錢就是414億，你編的預算清清楚楚啊，砍掉了273，已經排除喔，雖然被砍，但排除喔，你還剩下372億，是不是？你需要的，你今年就372億，有夠用啊，怎麼會不夠錢？是不是這樣？"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我要回答嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：請說、請說。"],["劉部長世芳：好，報告委員，我再把它原來的程序跟委員很簡單報告一下，請你給我30秒就好了，我們在去年8月29號的時候，有一個預算案送到立法院裡面去，國土管理業務的編列預算是414億6,726萬2,000元，裡面含撥補住宅基金400億元，所謂撥補住宅基金的400億元，不是我內政部給國土署，而是行政院要給內政部，這個沒有錯吧？好，那113年住宅基金的撥補只有200億，所以我們希望行政院能夠給我們400億，也就是說，我們需要增加200億的錢，如果沒有的話，只能動支原來的200億，剛好是200億、200億，所以大家就會混在一起。然後在總統公布總預算案的時候，總統公布預算案為法定預算的時候，我們的撥補200億才能動支，所以院會表決的過程當中，裡面包括有凍結以後我們可支用的預算，我現在所說的就是我們的中央政府總預算，也就是行政院卓院長提到的，中央政府總預算增加了2,806億裡面，有一部分叫擴大租金補貼是200億，我現在講的是這個部分。"],["張委員啓楷：這部分有任何人砍了它嗎？沒有！而且你這是完全扭曲的啊！你知道嗎……"],["劉部長世芳：但是現在可以用嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：你知道今年……"],["劉部長世芳：現在可以用嗎？報告委員，現在我們全部統刪、統凍的部分是303億，立法院要求行政院自己去處理，各部會要刪減的部分有636億，這個636億，到目前為止，不管是立法院有沒有跟行政院溝通或說明好，目前為止都是未定案。既然目前為止是未定案的話，我們的部會是在行政院全部統籌之下，當然都是未定數，所以未來的租金補貼是不是真正能夠撥補到200億，我們也是有一個問號，請委員多指教。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說你新增2,806億，後來砍了……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，不是我們，是整個行政院。"],["張委員啓楷：對，整個行政院，二千八百多億元，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這次砍了多少錢？全部的刪減額多少？"],["劉部長世芳：939億左右。"],["張委員啓楷：你說的是統刪嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，不是統刪，抱歉，統刪、統凍的部分我們都處理好了，叫做303億。"],["張委員啓楷：整體三讀之後，114年的整個刪減……"],["劉部長世芳：因為就我的理解……"],["張委員啓楷：2,075嘛，那裡面還要扣掉台電的1,000億，對不對？所以是一千多億元嘛，對不對？也不是全部砍這個金額啊，縱使全部砍這個金額，這裡面還剩下很多啊。第二個是你剛剛親口講的，你說的是統刪部分939嘛，對不對？現在你在講說……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，統刪不是939，就是一定要處理掉的是939，統刪的是303億，還有636億可能要分散到各部會去，那怎麼樣分散到各部會去，行政院還沒有從立法院這邊得到一個正確的數字，所以我們有一點不太敢輕舉妄動。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，這樣很牽強啦，因為636跟兩千八百多？這是幾分之幾，絕大部分都可以用吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，因為我不是在行政院的層級，我只回應我內政部可以處理到的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，這是第一個嘛。第二個，我現在跟你說，我剛剛算給你看了，你的金額是夠的嘛，對不對？第二個，這個提案……"],["劉部長世芳：不知道，因為到目前為止，登記租金補貼的大概已經有70萬戶以上。"],["張委員啓楷：對，部長，還有一個大問題喔！提案裡面還有一個很重要的，三個月內你要提出，我上次有問你對不對？你要趕快提啊！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：本席不是苦口婆心跟你講說……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們今天在程序提出來的時候已經有提到了，今天算是業務報告，不算是解凍報告，而且那裡面有提到要提專案報告，這個專案報告要立法院依照程序交辦下來才有可能處理。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，所以我們提案裡面就要你三個月提出嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：立法院的院會。"],["張委員啓楷：你就依照這個程序趕快提，三個月內。"],["劉部長世芳：立法院的院會，不是內政委員會，內政委員會的委員都非常的清楚，我們今天的報告事項是以報告業務為主。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，院會只是交給委員會來審，對不對？對嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：我尊重立法院的各項程序處理。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以不是由院會審查啦，院會只是負責這些程序……"],["劉部長世芳：我們尊重立法院的各項程序處理。"],["張委員啓楷：上次連主席都有跟你解釋過了嘛，而且我們提案裡面很清楚，你就三個月內趕快提嘛。","好，我歸納一下，拜託這個事情不要再有誤會，因為這牽扯到很多人的權益，租屋補貼多少人嗷嗷待哺在等，你現在卻來恐嚇他們，事實上，第一個關鍵是什麼？沒有刪掉它任何一筆錢，對不對？第二個，你三個月內本來就要提解凍嘛！我上次還提醒你，除了賴清德以前公視的那一筆凍結到了隔年才給，凍結案沒有不過的啦，你趕快提，三個月時間都已經到了。第三個，我今天還進一步用數學給你看，就算是將凍結的那10%拿掉，你的錢還是夠的，怎麼可以不花錢，或者是讓人家覺得有恐懼感呢？趕快解決問題啦，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教。"],["張委員啓楷：不要再讓那些要領租屋補貼的人那麼擔心啦，主席上一次已經講了嘛，儘快，院會排給我們就；趕快審，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","最後，我再補充說明一下，今天跟解凍是有關的啦，因為解凍有很多要件嘛，其中要件如果要專案報告，你就是要排專案報告嘛，我如果等你通通送進來，萬一送了三、五個案子卡在一起，這樣很麻煩嘛，所以現在先把這走完，到最後送進來之後，我們還是要進討論事項、還是要處理，但是就可以省去詢答這個最花時間的流程啦，所以是有關的，但今天不會處理到解凍案，因為你還沒有送進來，還沒有付委嘛，我們希望行政院趕快送。","第二個，我剛剛這樣聽了，不管是許宇甄委員或者張啓楷委員針對的租屋補貼，還有劉世芳部長之間的200億，大家認知不一樣啦，因為行政院擴大新增的200億有沒有編進來，其實有嘛，因為113年編200嘛，114年編了400嘛，所以其實是有進來。張啓楷委員跟許宇甄委員的意思是說，我們沒有去刪這個200億嘛，但劉世芳部長講說，因為卡到其他的東西，可能動支一時之間有困難，所以大家的誤會是在這個地方，但是我想大家都不會反對。今天不管是藍、綠、白的委員都想要監督政府，但是針對租屋補貼這個事情，大家絕對都不會去為難政府，只要把事情講清楚就好，所以行政院針對……我是覺得跟民生最有關的幾個，其實我們都開始有走專案報告嘛，比如說租屋補貼，比如說今天的生活圈道路，跟建設有關的，我想行政院也不會隨便撙節啦，這一部分補充做一下說明。","最後，我們請葉元之委員，葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","所有登記發言的委員，除不在場者以外，其餘均已發言完畢，我們詢答到此結束。高金素梅委員、丁學忠委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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本席請吳署長吳署長有請"},{"start":17.635,"end":39.617,"text":"委員好 署長好 署長請教一下今天內政部的報告是不是貴署所寫的 執筆的是不是國土署是 是嘛 好 那本席想請教我們在背景說明的時候特別提到生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫是辦理道路的新闢貨拓寬"},{"start":41.658,"end":70.021,"text":"針對目前各直轄市縣市政府既有道路功能不彰危險或交通瓶頸來進行系統整合那我們想了解就是說你們現在跟地方的是不是都是地方提案然後你們審查然後撥經費嘛那現在如果地方這個有些路段民眾長期的反應而且一直沒改善那所以你們在"},{"start":72.472,"end":97.332,"text":"這個審核的時候你們是用什麼樣的機制說明一下就是說生活圈他送來的時候其實我們看的不會只有看那一條路我們其實也是看周圍的環境他改善的效益我把我題目講的更明確一點你們錢一直撥每年這樣預算全國這樣下去但是有些地方他的路段長期一直沒有改善這種情形怎麼辦"},{"start":99.316,"end":110.707,"text":"應該這麼說看它是哪一類它是什麼道路它有的是屬於非都市土地那可能就是我們跟交通部有分別第二個是說 直接講新竹產業園區內"},{"start":115.752,"end":131.807,"text":"其實就以前的新豐湖口工業區它現在叫新竹產業園區那這裡面我想你應該很熟啊工業三路、勝利二路還有榮光路那一段那邊長期反應都沒有改善工業區的部分是屬於在經濟部"},{"start":134.25,"end":161.906,"text":"工業區內工業區內是經濟部所以縣市政府不能提要提到經濟部他經濟部他之前也有他前幾年我印象他有做但是他不是全部都在做他有時候也會跟我們協商有一些在拜託我們或交通部做那有一部分他自己做可是可是這一個如果他是縣道呢縣道縣府不能提案給你們不能改善嗎"},{"start":163.43,"end":167.407,"text":"說明一下如果工業區範圍內還是屬於它才屬於經濟部的部分"},{"start":168.389,"end":192.489,"text":"工業區的外面的話如果在獨基內就是屬於我們屬於你們的嘛那榮光路是它主五線嘛主五線是我們縣道嘛是是是對所以這一塊那如果是提升道路品質的部分那就是在前瞻裡面就是它路況是做更新而已而不是有拓寬生活圈是主要你可能有拓寬有有有它需要拓寬"},{"start":194.248,"end":214.527,"text":"地方要求拓寬多年民怨沸騰所以我現在想知道你們審核的機制到底是怎麼樣說明一下那這個部分我想我們再來跟縣府或跟公所了解看為什麼他們過去從來沒有提案因為有可能他覺得那個徵收費用可能太驚人或怎麼樣他有時候也不太敢提案"},{"start":216.259,"end":233.308,"text":"是因為這樣有可能因為有時候地方政府尤其到鄉鎮公所那個層級他會很在意講到這個我可能要請部長部長您也來一下因為我看到我們這個有所謂的道安總動員平台那個好像是交通部管的對不對"},{"start":234.811,"end":246.877,"text":"你看它就是道安道路安全道安應該是道路交通安全道安總動員平台國土署這邊也負責一些市區道路"},{"start":248.383,"end":272.994,"text":"那這個怎麼整合所以我請部長來主要就針對因為這可能有跨部會的問題如果你現在講的就是產業園區外面的道路的話那我會建議說委員可不可以就是說我們國土署跟交通部或者是跟經濟部共同去看一下大家把它查清楚就是全署的單位是誰然後來決定然後再跟地方政府來做溝通道安總動員平台它這是一個平台"},{"start":273.954,"end":298.517,"text":"去年6月24號才上線我們的行政院長都還有開記者會那他一直在定期公佈各縣市交通事故以及開放民眾通報路口改善建議那像這個既然他的利益是如此可是這個好像沒有真正發揮功效因為民眾反應也不一定有效再來就是我們發現"},{"start":301.132,"end":316.44,"text":"這個系統這可能交通部要上來因為這整合的他這個網站統計到今天我們上去看他還只統計到2月25號所以部長不好意思我請您還有交通部今天是"},{"start":319.259,"end":327.851,"text":"副局長副局長副局長來對那像這一個網站上今天已經4月份了結果4月7號了結果我們現在統計只到2月25號這一個系統"},{"start":334.059,"end":351.591,"text":"在放假期間網頁斷線你們這個系統不穩有一個說我要通報路口改善結果完全無從反應所以我也要同步表達就是說這個系統好像完全沒辦法work"},{"start":354.403,"end":379.085,"text":"那個副局長一副這個完全不知情然後這個上面本席也要建議這個應該是應該可以隨時及時更新可是他其實整個直到2月25去年6月我在這邊要凸顯第一個跨部會因為民眾的很多事情他不是單一的單位像今天這個可能內政部跟交通部都有關"},{"start":380.026,"end":401.185,"text":"那我们的中央政府真的少一点政治斗争多一点为民服务啊那这个去年六月才开记者会的到现在根本不work而且完全的也都好像摊在那里不到一年然后统计整个就好像摆烂在那里"},{"start":403.243,"end":411.963,"text":"報告委員 您簡單回覆這個系統其實隨時在更新 尤其是填報的像回報的 民眾一來 他直接是上網填報的"},{"start":412.861,"end":434.342,"text":"它上面就寫統計至2月25號啊你真的要我秀出來對啊統計至2月25號啊然後親民廉價你們應該知道那個民眾很多要反映的我們當然也是在準備質詢稿我們發現完全上機啊你們也沒人知道啊這個部分我們回去再查一下啦但是那個更新的部分是像"},{"start":436.038,"end":464.947,"text":"地方政府做這個路口做完了地方政府馬上會上這個網填報完成那他是隨時再更新你不要說一套做一套你去了解實際情況OK那部長你也請那個請回座請回座我最後請署長署長那個我們今天講這個道路品質嘛那其實現在你應該知道市區道路的話其實人行道跟自行車道的需求越來越大我相信您了解嘛"},{"start":465.427,"end":478.835,"text":"所以有關人行道跟自行車道的話事好像中央沒有什麼這個相關的一些措施報告我們在去年已經有公布那個"},{"start":479.833,"end":499.131,"text":"市區人行人行設施的這個這個相關的這樣一個規範都有了自行車道的建置有統一的標準人行道的部分有自行車道在交通部因為我們發現我們3月份3月份新竹縣整個道安事故是您知道嗎這個竟然"},{"start":502.577,"end":531.324,"text":"去這個三月份今年三月份的統計去年在騎自行車死亡的人數竟然是成長率百分之百那所以這個部分就是說人行道跟自行車道的部分這一塊你們怎麼樣來改善因為我們常聽到民眾跟我們反應就是說我走在人行道上我很容易可能會被自行車撞到"},{"start":533.304,"end":559.489,"text":"因為自行車道的劃設很多地方不足然後現在UBIKE全國都一直在進行我們新竹縣也在這幾年非常蓬勃的發展所以是不是你自行車等於說騎自行車死亡跟受傷的人數逐年這幾年是不是因為我們整個中央的法規還有我們的這個實施一直沒有跟上民眾生活的腳步"},{"start":562.528,"end":584.109,"text":"因為過去在人行道的設計上跟自行車到底是共用還是分隔其實交通部都有頒布相關的規定那當然我想在很多老的城市尤其像新竹市區本身道路就比較小那能夠擠出人行道大概就很不容易那如果要在人行道裡面再去做分隔"},{"start":584.81,"end":605.288,"text":"可能會更難所以我在猜這塊國土署有相關經費嗎沒有 我說明一下因為它是在你的標誌標線上要去做共用或區隔所以這個是在這為什麼是交通部因為在所有的這個道安規則裡面都是在交通部交通部它是執行單位"},{"start":608.191,"end":609.572,"text":"還有法規那是經費你們這邊有嗎改善的部分是我們有所以你們改善他們也有嗎"},{"start":621.57,"end":639.842,"text":"有他們也有所以這樣好像你很難控管嘛都市計劃區內的話大概是我們我現在都講都市計劃區內啊對對所以我說明一下就是說人行道做好了他到底是要用共用還是分隔就是市政府要決定因為標準都有"},{"start":641.294,"end":667.604,"text":"由市政府決定沒有一個通用的法規或什麼就是它交通部有頒訂的規則是共用跟分隔都可以就是你地方政府依照實際情形去決定是要共用還是分隔那所以可能是新竹市政府還沒有去做好這樣的一個規定沒有啦我是管新竹縣啦新竹縣的部分也沒有去可能還沒有去做好這一塊的這個分隔的標準新竹縣也很多地方沒有啊"},{"start":668.701,"end":691.483,"text":"所以第一個建人行道您的意思是說這是縣市政府的責任應該這麼說人行道的部分經費我們來協助但是做好了你到底是跟自行車道要分隔我從頭到尾問的時候你們在審核經費你們在給地方當然地方都很希望你們給但是民眾跟我們都希望你們給下去我們是看得到成果的"},{"start":692.495,"end":715.46,"text":"我們當然也不會覺得說你給我那個不好但是你在審核的時候你怎麼樣把經費能夠包括它的執行對執行成效你們有在管嗎有這根本報告我們大概每年就足跡都會做一些檢討足跡都會做一些檢討檢討前一年的前一年對那尤其大概做好以後會跟前一年的"},{"start":716.703,"end":727.948,"text":"就做好執行一年以後會跟之前沒有做完之前的交通事故去做一個比較所以你不會針對他他做了有沒有符合需求"},{"start":729.688,"end":748.981,"text":"福爾曲球的部分當然就是因為你地方政府提出這一些但是剩下就是有一些就變成民眾再來反映的時候那我們當然也會去做檢討這也是我們為什麼會有推一個街道醫生的那樣的一個計畫就讓民眾來提出他們的一些看法街道醫生是國土署提的嗎對對對"},{"start":750.906,"end":778.054,"text":"也就讓他們提出來有哪一些看法那我們會針對那樣的路口去提出來看看要怎麼去改善或是路段要怎麼去改善那這也就是有時候我們會接受民眾投票我們每年都有讓民眾來投票那還有做醫生 接到醫生的一個檢視是做這樣來協助大家看怎麼樣改善好 謝謝好 謝謝徐信英委員的質詢報告委員會我們中午不休息下一位我們請徐副委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時54分）謝謝主席，本席請吳署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：署長好。請教一下署長，今天內政部的報告是不是貴署所寫的？執筆的是不是國土署？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席想請教你，你們在背景說明中特別提到生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫是辦理道路的新闢或拓寬，針對目前各直轄市、縣市政府既有道路功能不彰、危險或交通瓶頸來進行系統整合，那我們想了解，你們現在跟地方之間是不是都是地方提案，由你們審查，然後撥經費？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在地方有一些路段，雖然民眾長期反映，可是一直沒改善，所以你們在審核的時候是用什麼樣的機制？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，就是在生活圈送來的時候，其實我們不會只有看那一條路，我們也會看周圍的環境、改善的效益，大概是這樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我把我的題目講得更明確一點，你們一直撥錢，每年預算在全國這樣下去，但是有些地方的路段長期一直沒有改善，這種情形怎麼辦？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，要看它是哪一類，譬如說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是看它是什麼道路嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：有的是屬於非都市土地，可能就是我們跟交通部有分責，第二個是說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在我直接講，在新竹產業園區內，其實就是以前的新豐湖口工業區，它現在叫新竹產業園區，我想你應該很熟，有工業三路、勝利二路還有榮光路那一段，那邊有人長期反映，可是都沒有改善。"],["吳署長欣修：工業區的部分是屬於經濟部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔？"],["吳署長欣修：在工業區內是歸經濟部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以縣市政府不能提，要提到經濟部？這些道路不可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：經濟部之前也有，我印象中它在前幾年有做，但是它不是全部都在做，它有時候也會跟我們協商，有一些拜託我們或交通部做，那有一部分是它自己做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是如果它是縣道呢？對縣道縣府不能提案給你們，不能改善嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，如果在工業區的範圍內，還是屬於經濟部的部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：工業區的周邊主要道路……"],["吳署長欣修：但是外面的話，如果在都計內，就是屬於我們。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是屬於你們的嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那榮光路是竹5線，竹5線是我們的縣道嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這一塊……"],["吳署長欣修：如果是提升道路品質的部分，那就是在前瞻裡面，就是路況做更新而已，而不是有拓寬，生活圈主要是可能有拓寬……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有，它需要拓寬。"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分其實我們可以再來了解看看有沒有提案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：地方要求拓寬多年，民怨沸騰，所以我現在想知道你們審核的機制到底是怎麼樣。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，這個部分我想我們再來跟縣府或公所了解，看看為什麼他們過去從來沒有提案，因為有可能它覺得那個徵收費用太驚人或怎麼樣，它有時候也不太敢提案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，是因為這樣。"],["吳署長欣修：有可能，因為有時候地方政府尤其到鄉鎮公所那個層級，它會很在意那個徵收的經費。"],["徐委員欣瑩：講到這個，我可能要請問部長，部長，您也上來一下，因為我看到我們有所謂的道安總動員平臺，那個好像是交通部管的，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你看它就是道安，道安應該是道路交通安全，在道安總動員平臺國土署這邊也負責一些市區道路，那這個要怎麼整合？我請部長上來主要就是針對這個，因為這個可能有跨部會的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員，如果你現在講的是產業園區外面的道路，那我會建議委員，可不可以由我們國土署跟交通部或者是跟經濟部共同去看一下，大家把它查清楚，就是權屬的單位是誰，然後來決定，然後再跟地方政府來做溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：道安總動員平臺是一個平臺，在去年6月24號才上線，我們的行政院長都還有開記者會。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個平臺一直在定期公布各縣市交通事故以及開放民眾通報路口改善建議，雖然它的立意是如此，可是好像沒有真正發揮功效，因為就算民眾反映也不一定有效，再來就是我們發現這個系統……可能交通部要上來，因為這個是整合的，我們今天上去看了，這個網站還只統計到2月25號。部長，不好意思，我請問您還有交通部副局長，今天已經4月7號了，結果現在這個網站只統計到2月25號，這一個系統在放假期間網頁斷線，你們這個系統不穩，裡面有一個是「我要通報路口改善」，結果完全無從反映，所以我也要同步表達這個系統好像沒辦法work，副局長一副完全不知情的樣子。然後本席也要建議這個上面應該是可以隨時、即時更新，可是它只統計到2月25號。我要凸顯的第一個是跨部會，因為民眾很多事情不是只關係單一的單位，像今天這個可能內政部跟交通部都有關，我們的中央政府真的要少一點政治鬥爭，多一點為民服務啊！去年6月才開記者會的，到現在根本不work，而且好像完全攤在那裡，不到一年，然後整個統計就擺爛在那裡。你簡單回復。"],["林副局長聰利：報告委員，這個系統其實隨時在更新，尤其是填報的、回報的，民眾是直接上網填報的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：它上面就寫統計至2月25號啊，你真的要我秀出來，對啊！統計至2月25號啊！"],["林副局長聰利：我們會隨時更新……"],["徐委員欣瑩：清明連假期間，你們應該知道民眾很多要反映的，當然我們也是在準備質詢稿，但卻發現完全當機，你們也沒人知道啊？"],["林副局長聰利：這個部分，我們回去再查一下啦！但是更新的部分是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：太誇張了。"],["林副局長聰利：像地方政府路口做完了，它會馬上上這個網填報完成，它是隨時在更新的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦，你不要說一套做一套，你去了解實際情況。"],["林副局長聰利：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，部長也請回座，我最後請署長。署長，我們今天講道路品質，你應該知道現在市區道路對於人行道跟自行車道的需求越來越大，我相信您了解嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以有關人行道跟自行車道的劃設，中央有沒有相關的一些措施？"],["吳署長欣修：我們在去年已經有公布市區人行設施相關的規範，已經都發布了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：自行車道的建置有統一的標準？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，人行道的部分有，自行車道在交通部有公布。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我們發現3月份新竹縣整個道安事故，您知道嗎？今年3月份統計去年騎自行車死亡的人數，竟然成長率是百分之百！所以人行道跟自行車道的部分，這一塊你們怎麼樣來改善？因為我們常常聽到民眾跟我們反映，走在人行道上，他可能很容易會被自行車撞到，因為自行車道的劃設很多地方不足，然後現在Ubike全國都一直在進行，我們新竹縣在這幾年也非常蓬勃的發展，所以等於騎自行車死亡跟受傷的人數逐年攀升，是不是因為中央的法規及實施，一直沒有跟上民眾生活的腳步？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，過去在人行道的設計上，跟自行車到底是共用還是分隔，其實交通部都有頒布相關的規定，但是我想在很多老的城市，尤其像新竹市區本身道路就比較小，能夠擠出人行道大概就很不容易，如果要在人行道裡面再去做分隔可能會更難，所以我想它可能……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一塊國土署有相關經費嗎？針對自行車道。"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，我說明一下，因為它是在標誌、標線上要去做共用或區隔，這個為什麼是交通部主責？因為所有的道安規則裡面都是在交通部，所以它去頒……"],["徐委員欣瑩：交通部是執行單位？"],["吳署長欣修：對，也就是說這樣的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有法規，法規也是他們負責？"],["吳署長欣修：法規的部分，地方政府是執行單位，就是新竹市政府……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是經費你們這邊有嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：改善的部分我們有，所以我才會說明……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們是改善，所以他們也有嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：有，他們也有，場域不同。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這樣你好像很難控管嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：都市計畫區內的話，大概是我們。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在都講都市計畫區內啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以人行道做好了，它到底是要採共用還是分隔，就是市政府要決定，因為標準都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個由市政府決定，沒有一個通用的法規或什麼的？"],["吳署長欣修：交通部頒訂的規則是共用跟分隔都可以，就是地方政府依照實際情形去決定是要共用還是分隔，所以可能是新竹市政府還沒有做好這樣的規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有啦，我是管新竹縣啦，沒有管到新竹市。"],["吳署長欣修：新竹縣的部分可能也還沒有做好這一塊分隔的標準。"],["徐委員欣瑩：新竹縣也很多地方沒有啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以第一個，建人行道……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您的意思是這是縣市政府的責任啦！"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，人行道的部分，經費我們來協助，但是做好了，到底是不是跟自行車道要分隔，還是地方政府要決定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：從頭到尾我問的，就是你們在審核經費、在給地方，當然地方都很希望你們給，但是民眾跟我們都希望你們給下去是看得到成果的，我們當然也不會覺得你給我不好，但是你在審核的時候怎麼樣把經費……包括它的執行成效，你們有在管嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：有，跟委員報告，我們大概每年逐季都會做一些檢討。當然……"],["徐委員欣瑩：每年檢討前一年的？前一年完成的？"],["吳署長欣修：對，尤其做好以後會跟前一年的……即做好執行一年以後，會跟沒有做完之前的交通事故做一個比較。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你不會針對它做了有沒有符合需求加以檢討？"],["吳署長欣修：符合需求的部分，因為是地方政府提出這一些，但是剩下有一些就會變成民眾再來反映的時候，我們也會去做檢討，這也是我們為什麼推一個街道醫生的計畫，就是讓民眾提出他們的一些看法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：街道醫生是國土署提的嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，讓他們提出來有哪一些看法，我們會針對那樣提出來的路口看看要怎麼去改善，或是路段要怎麼去改善，有時候我們會接受民眾投票，我們每年都有讓民眾來投票，還有做街道醫生的檢視，這樣來協助大家看要怎麼樣改善。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。報告委員會，我們中午不休息，下一位請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","張啓楷","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、交通部就「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143401_00011"}}},{"id":"159903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c41b1a0504d137e563d0ae5fcd2bea0f5410e0cc1efc9f3076318e8f2386bd98c9b4925af52c8bb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:44:43 - 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最後是到目前為止通山是4.0這生活圈的部分是通山4.01億那這個業務費 業務費有被凍結那也被刪減跟凍結那這個部分是比較明確那永續的部分的話是影響是還好是業務費的部分那所以剛剛那個數字後來有變動嗎對後來有變動是就是說這個刪減的沒有到7.55億"},{"start":72.307,"end":98.233,"text":"對 生活圈的部分是4.011然後凍結的部分呢凍結凍結是這個它的部分是業務費凍結的部分是業務費 對然後會影響到就是說我們不是有這一個提升人行安全的這個計畫這個會不會受到影響這個部分是也是主要是在業務費的部分所以在目前的話我們還是有這樣在審核"},{"start":99.224,"end":106.687,"text":"凍結是凍結30% 業務費我記得內政部是凍結業務費是30%所以這個也含在裡面就對了但是我們現在就是永續的部分還是有持續在受理那就是說你們有一個113年到116年的4年的計畫那包含這個內政部是有140億"},{"start":122.007,"end":150.059,"text":"內政部是260億 交通部有140億總共是400億的一個提升行人安全的這個計畫那除了這個計畫之外你們還有一個是所謂的街道醫生就是說這個全民參與街道改善的平台就是用民眾去投票的啦那民眾投票我看你們這個去年有這個7月有這個投票的結果然後有八件那八件你們是說這八件就是中央政府會全額補助就對了沒錯"},{"start":151.339,"end":168.445,"text":"那這個預算會不會受到影響這目前來講沒有因為這是去年已經核定的案子那這個有包含在新北的話有這個包含這一個學府路淡水的學府路是在淡江大學的周邊它的票數是蠻高的所以你們是優先來做處理啦好"},{"start":171.29,"end":195.659,"text":"目前來講新北市政府在淡水的部分它是一整區在提三重的部分它有提了三重 我現在就問你三重因為它這個民眾投票這還有包含這個 除了淡水之外在三重有一個文化北路文化北路它也有109票那我請問一下 因為你們這邊說如果說是在這個你們有8案是中央政府全額補助然後如果這個得票數在50票以上呢"},{"start":197.159,"end":223.234,"text":"就喊請地方政府來評估這個案件的可行性那如果有需求可以進一步申請經費的補助那我請問一下齁在這個三重文化北路這一段它那個票選票數是很高啊109票那請問一下那這個新北市政府有這個提案來申請這個可行性的補助嗎是這樣這個提案的部分我們有通過那有請新北市政府提那新北市政府告訴我們現在在評估中因為它一直採取下來啦"},{"start":224.584,"end":242.035,"text":"他就是一個算是一個晚上會有夜市啦對對對所以他可能新北市政府還在評估他到底是要做這個變成說部分時段的人行專用呢還是還是他是部分的人行專用這部分我知道他們還在評估當中"},{"start":242.455,"end":269.576,"text":"所以那個還沒有送上去就對了對對對我沒有要他提案但是他還沒有來還沒有來申請因為這個上一次三重區有很多里長也跟我反映就是說他們記得印象中有這個投票那這個投票在文化北路這個票數也蠻高的那可是到目前為止好像沒有任何動靜所以目前就是新北市政府還沒有送上去對對他在評估就我們剛剛講他到底是要部分"},{"start":270.458,"end":273.95,"text":"部分還是全部 他現在等還要再考慮這樣子喔嘿 好"},{"start":275.151,"end":304.238,"text":"那就是那我也催一下新北市政府那如果既然中央有這個經費可以補助的話這個不要把這個經費浪費掉因為事實上如果按照民眾提案的票數來講應該算是意願很高因為表示造成的困擾也很大對我看這個跟這個淡江大學周遭的只差了大概四五十票而已對他跟英鑽路是同票數那表示其實瓶頸的狀況很嚴重好那我再請教你"},{"start":304.798,"end":333.002,"text":"就是說這個侯友宇市長他3月24他有到三重區他有一個這個行動治理然後他有特別在提到說三重果菜市場他說他任內希望這個三重果菜市場能夠讓他通過但是我印象中啦印象中就是說國土部署有一直要求新北市政府第一個要做這一個公開的這一個展覽他們還沒有辦另外一個就是說就是說因為當時候他們來申請新北市政府來申請是原地改建"},{"start":333.722,"end":358.578,"text":"那原地改建後來因為有一個所謂蘆洲的一個重劃區要迎合灣計畫所以他想要把它移過去那可是也沒有得到這個蘆洲地區居民的同意然後在三重地區的話因為當初我們變更的同意讓它變更成商業區的條件是說原地重建那所以說我想請問一下國土署目前對於這個三重國債市場目前的"},{"start":360.655,"end":385.275,"text":"進度是到哪裡的報告一下就是之前因為也有跟新北市政府接受說明如果你們政策上確定要搬過來那我們就是會請他就已經請他你要把三重的案子重新修正因為他104年通過那當時是市場原地重建所以他必須要回饋的公用設施比例是很低的"},{"start":385.996,"end":410.34,"text":"那但是你現在如果把它移過來你原地商業區的公共設施的比例現在就明顯偏就會明顯偏低你必須要重新修正你必須要再報一個修正案送過來給內政部小組委員會確認以後你要兩岸並同重新公展那讓市民都了解第一個確定這個案就要移到蘆洲第二個原地的"},{"start":410.96,"end":436.059,"text":"改建的條件就變更那這樣不會造成兩邊的條件一直不穩定我部都委會要一直移來移去但是到目前為止我們只有收到公文說他希望那一個蘆洲案可以重公斬但是不符合我們另外一個要件是說三重那一個要重新提報一個案件上來的這樣一個要件他蘆洲公斬也還沒有辦還沒有還沒有然後在三重的話因為就像你講的那其實當初讓他能夠"},{"start":437.04,"end":454.156,"text":"變成這一個變更成商業區其實是給它很大的一個條件然後其實因為它是市場會在那邊就像你講的這個公共的設施其實比例沒有這麼高它現在如果改成純商業區的話那個比例會不一樣啊對 要求的公設比例就要變高所以它現在都還沒有送過來是是對啊 所以"},{"start":457.779,"end":474.17,"text":"那個侯社長他就說他希望他任內能夠把這一個案子把他通過那基本上新北市政府這兩個要先做處理啊沒錯一定要而且並同處理好我們才會統一來審議然後統一要求他兩個案一起從公宅所以這個是要並行一起來處理就對了對這樣兩邊的條件才會一致"},{"start":475.971,"end":492.186,"text":"那總不能一個過了結果這一個條件還不確定那這樣的話到大會是絕對不予受理這樣的案子不會受理去審議的好最後再問一下這迎新未來城就是說原來這個壁華國中他遷走了那迎新未來城那後來這一個"},{"start":492.927,"end":518.419,"text":"新北市政府他們有做一些比例上的調整那它供應性好像有把它增加了那現在這個最主要它的那個它的那個全領的這一個出租套房這個部分衛福部最後也有同意認定了所以這個部分他已經送過來我們有小組會再排審會再排審那這部分大致上比較沒有問題也就是大家部會的意見也都有共識的話我們來審查會比較比較明確"},{"start":520.8,"end":544.921,"text":"那大概有沒有什麼一個期限說這部分這個審查大概可以通過了沒有我們會加速這個部分我們會加速來處理因為畢竟這個案子也放很多年了是啊那最近排審的這個都審應該是都審小組委員會那確切的時間我再跟委員再做報告好那再跟我說明一下好OK好謝謝署長謝謝好謝謝李坤城委員的諮詢下一位我們請徐信委員諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我們請國土署的吳署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：署長好。本席看到你們2月9號有發一個新聞文稿，114年度包含提升人行安全跟生活圈道路計畫的這一些預算被刪減了7.55億、凍結了43.8億，這個數字是否正確？"],["吳署長欣修：到目前為止，生活圈的部分是通刪4.01億，業務費也被刪減跟凍結，這個部分是比較明確，那永續部分的影響是還好，是業務費的部分。"],["李委員坤城：所以剛剛那個數字後來有變動嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：後來有變動？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：刪減的沒有到7.55億？"],["吳署長欣修：對，生活圈的部分是4.01億。"],["李委員坤城：凍結的部分呢？"],["吳署長欣修：凍結的部分是業務費。"],["李委員坤城：凍結部分是業務費？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：提升人行安全的這個計畫會不會受到影響？"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分主要也是在業務費的部分，所以目前的話，我們還是照樣有在審核。"],["李委員坤城：凍結是凍結30%嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：我記得內政部凍結業務費是30%，所以這個也含在裡面就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：對，但我們現在永續的部分還是有持續受理。"],["李委員坤城：你們有一個113年到116年的4年計畫，包含內政部260億、交通部140億，總共是400億的提升行人安全計畫。除了這個計畫之外，你們還有一個所謂的街道醫生，就是全民參與街道改善的平臺讓民眾去投票，我看你們去年7月的投票結果有8件，你們說這8件中央政府會全額補助？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：那這個預算會不會受到影響？"],["吳署長欣修：目前來講沒有，因為這是去年已經核定的案子。"],["李委員坤城：這部分在新北包含淡水的學府路，這是在淡江大學的周邊，它的票數蠻高的，所以你們優先來處理嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：目前來講，新北市政府在淡水的部分是一整區在提，三重部分它也有提。"],["李委員坤城：我現在就問你三重，因為這個民眾投票除了淡水之外，三重文化北路也有109票，我請問一下，你們有8案是中央政府全額補助，得票數在50票以上的就函請地方政府來評估這個案件的可行性，如果有需求可以進一步申請經費的補助，那我請問一下，三重文化北路這一段的票數也是很高，共有109票，請問一下，新北市政府有提案來申請可行性評估嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是這樣的，這個提案的部分我們有通過、也有請新北市政府提，新北市政府告訴我們現在在評估中，因為它在菜市場內。"],["李委員坤城：它算是晚上會有夜市。"],["吳署長欣修：對，市場內，可能新北市政府還在評估，它到底要做部分時段的人行專用還是全部人行專用，這個部分我知道他們還在評估當中。"],["李委員坤城：所以還沒有送上去就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們有要它提案，但是它還沒有來申請。"],["李委員坤城：三重區很多里長也有跟我反映，他們印象中有這個投票，文化北路的票數也蠻高的。"],["吳署長欣修：非常高。"],["李委員坤城：可是到目前為止好像沒有任何動靜，所以目前就是新北市政府還沒有送上去？"],["吳署長欣修：對，它在評估我們剛剛講的，它到底是要部分還是全部，它現在可能還要再考慮。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我也催一下新北市政府，既然中央有這個經費可以補助的話，不要把這個經費浪費掉。"],["吳署長欣修：事實上，如果按照民眾提案的票數來講，應該算是意願很高，表示造成的困擾也很大。"],["李委員坤城：對，我看這個跟淡江大學周遭的只差了大概四、五十票而已。"],["吳署長欣修：對，它跟英專路是同票數，表示瓶頸的狀況很嚴重。"],["李委員坤城：那我再請教你，侯友宜市長3月24號有到三重區行動治理，他有特別再提到三重果菜市場，他說希望在他任內能夠讓這個三重果菜市場通過，但是在我印象中，國土署一直要求新北市政府第一個要做公開的展覽，可是他們還沒有辦。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：另外，因為當時新北市政府是申請原地改建，後來因為有一個所謂的蘆洲重劃區，就是銀河灣計畫，所以它想要把它移過去，可是也沒有得到蘆洲地區居民的同意。然後在三重地區，因為當初我們同意讓它變更成商業區的條件是要原地重建，我想請問一下國土署，這個三重果菜市場目前的進度是到哪裡了？"],["吳署長欣修：我報告一下，因為在之前也有直接跟新北市政府說明，如果你們政策上確定要搬過來……"],["李委員坤城：最近的說明大概是在哪個時候？"],["吳署長欣修：我們已經請它把三重的案子重新修正，因為它是在104年通過，當時是市場原地重建，所以必須要回饋的公共設施比例是很低的，但是現在如果把它移過來，那原地商業區公共設施的比例就會明顯偏低，你必須要重新修正，你必須要再報一個修正案送過來給內政部小組委員會，在確認以後，你要兩案併同重新公展，讓市民都了解，第一個，確定這個案子就要移到蘆洲；第二個，原地改建的條件就變更了。這樣就不會造成兩邊的條件一直不穩定，部都委會要一直移來移去，但是到目前為止，我們只有收到公文說它希望那一個蘆洲案可以重公展，但是不符合我們另外一個要件，就是三重那一個要重新提報一個案件上來的要件。"],["李委員坤城：蘆洲的公展也還沒有辦。"],["吳署長欣修：還沒有。"],["李委員坤城：然後在三重的話，就像你講的，當初讓它能夠變更成商業區，其實是給它一個很大的條件，因為市場會在那邊，就像你講的，這個公共設施的比例其實沒有這麼高，現在如果它改成純商業區的話，那個比例會不一樣啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，要求的公設比例就要變高。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在也都還沒有……"],["吳署長欣修：還沒有送來。"],["李委員坤城：都還沒有送過來？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：侯市長說希望在他任內能夠把這一個案子通過，基本上，新北市政府對這兩個要先做處理。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，而且要併同處理好，我們才會統一來審議，然後統一要求兩個案子一起重公展。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個是要併行一起來做處理就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：對，這樣兩邊的條件才會一致，總不能一個過了，結果另一個的條件還不確定，如果這樣的話，大會是絕對不予受理，對這樣的案子不會受理去審議。"],["李委員坤城：好，我最後再問一下銀新未來城，原來的碧華國中遷走了，後來新北市政府對銀新未來城有做一些比例上的調整，好像有把公益性增加了。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：那現在整個情況是怎麼樣？"],["吳署長欣修：因為最主要是對它的全齡出租套房這個部分，衛福部最後也有同意、認定了，這個部分它已經送過來了，我們有小組會再排審，這個部分大致上比較沒有問題，就是部會大家也都有共識的話，我們來審查就會比較明確。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有一個大概的期限？就是這部分的審查什麼時候可以通過？"],["吳署長欣修：還沒有，這個部分我們會加速來處理，因為畢竟這個案子也放很多年了。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！那最近排審的都審應該是都審……"],["吳署長欣修：是小組委員會，關於確切的時間，我再跟委員做報告。"],["李委員坤城：好，再跟我說明一下。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝署長。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","下一位我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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還有不一樣的刪減通刪是通刪對不對是要你行政院去調整是"},{"start":230.12,"end":244.313,"text":"1月到現在調整不出來通刪就是給你們一個機會而不是由立法院來決定通刪你們來刪多少比例就按照這個來去刪所以從1月20號假設1月20號立法院刪除通過到現在2月3月兩個多月了還無法"},{"start":256.907,"end":280.683,"text":"所以這個部分 這不是理由解凍 解凍案喔我了解我們都是事務官出身這種解凍案太多了我們經歷很多各種不同的政黨執政我們都是事務官嘛 對不對所以這個解凍的條件非常清楚凍結多少也很清楚"},{"start":281.448,"end":301.745,"text":"不要去拿我們作為事務官我也曾經在陳水扁總統執政的時候對不對我做事務官常常要去說服政務官為了人民的權益不要受到政治的影響為什麼會認為說行政院會認為說因為這個通商、刪減到底多少"},{"start":310.461,"end":335.36,"text":"我們事務官很清楚就是因為柯建民總召韓國瑜院長在主持協商的時候就不協商我想就是因為這樣所以我才跟委員報告就是說因為通山的狀況不明所以我們也很難為"},{"start":336.361,"end":349.036,"text":"同山的狀況不明我們也很難為所以這跟解凍案不一樣是過去的解凍也很容易但是現在的解凍不容易尤其是涉及到人民潛意的部分我們看這個涉及到人民潛意的部分這個是"},{"start":351.398,"end":378.618,"text":"國土署在2月17號的一個新聞發布的新聞你們發布的新聞特別提到114年度國土管理業務預算414.67億用於持續推動300億中央擴大租金補貼專案社會住宅直接興建包租貸款等包括貸款利息補貼"},{"start":380.633,"end":405.106,"text":"目前召立法院凍結41.47億你的信封稿也是寫得很清楚是凍結41.47億沒有刪減喔所以呢你這邊也是提到啊這裡面呼籲請國會支持相關預算趕快解凍"},{"start":406.491,"end":434.839,"text":"所以現在我們作為事務官為了租金補貼為了社會住宅各方面要趕快把提出狀況報告的解凍報告趕快送來當然現在行政院下令不能送理由就是因為通山那個根本不是理由因為解凍條件非常非常的清楚而且"},{"start":435.919,"end":443.012,"text":"就算是怎麼樣也要去說服部長甚至要說服行政院"},{"start":444.549,"end":467.827,"text":"所以這個部分都不是理由跟委員報告租金補貼的解凍報告可能到時候還要跟大院再商量因為當時的解凍的理由是不滿國土計畫但是凍結了租金補貼還有其他項目我們都要去討論沒有關係就寫清楚所以到底是要就寫清楚所以這個部分時間的關係這個部分都還要跟大院這邊再討論因為這個部分的確也是我們很少見到的我們來看"},{"start":475.953,"end":479.935,"text":"凍結率我們看歷年的凍結率114年度是4.6%了曾經最高的是95年度13.24%"},{"start":488.652,"end":513.129,"text":"94年度12.71%102年度10.06%以歷年的凍結數來講4.6% 104年度算是很低很低的所以那時候為什麼都可以就是大家要溝通大家要溝通而且我們事務官不要陷入"},{"start":514.059,"end":541.536,"text":"了解不要陷入政務官那種大罷免的那個原因要去製造這個部分我們不要陷入事務官不要陷入這個部分我們長期是事務官好剛才你有提到財政授之法案法你在別的委員的質詢的時候你有提到財政授之法案法財政授之法案法要修正是賴清德當市長的時候你那時候在台南市政府服務"},{"start":542.725,"end":570.191,"text":"然後那個賴清德總統當行政院院長的時候也提到要修財政收支劃分法要給地方更多的經費而終於完成了賴清德總統的願望完成了而這個財政收支劃分法我們國民黨的當初提案然後說得很清楚這個經費要從稅出剩餘"},{"start":571.087,"end":593.444,"text":"每年的幾千億的稅租增益然後超增稅收的每年的幾千億以113年度來講超增稅收5283億從這裡去支付這個三千多億的財產收入房給地方就足足有餘所以我們作為一個事務官"},{"start":594.284,"end":623.023,"text":"要想辦法爭取現在的預算繼續維持超徵的稅收 稅計剩餘拿去給地方這個就是達成賴總統當行政院長的時候一個願望應該共同的支持所以這個時間的關係我們作為事務官要想辦法說服政務官好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員的諮詢下一位高金素美委員改述"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時34分）主席、各位委員，有請署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：署長好。辛苦了！今天內政部的報告裡面特別提到生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫，111到113年度總共已經編列208.68億元，歷年達成率達98%以上，首先要請署長回去以後提書面資料補充給我，就是針對111到113各縣市的核定情形。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：114年度也是一樣，你這邊已經預計辦理92項工程，其中工程72件，預算達成率預估95%以上，表示你們也核定了嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，就是它是執行中的。"],["鄭天財Sra 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我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署伍興修署長劉部長 吳署長有請委員好部長好我想請教部長就是目前國土署在辦理道路改善有三項計畫正在進行那目前國土署執行情況也良好而且地方鄉鎮市公所也都給予高度的評價"},{"start":34.116,"end":52.081,"text":"那現在還有幾個問題要請教部長跟署長就是關於經費補助的問題因為114年的總預算總統已經公佈了那立法院針對地方補助經費沒有三減也沒有凍結那為什麼現在補助的經費遲遲無法撥付給地方政府"},{"start":53.106,"end":55.969,"text":"報告委員是這樣子就是說在我們3月21的時候呢是確實是總統有公布所謂的114年的這個相關的預算但是這裡面有一項我所瞭解就是說至暗難行的部分在於說原來啊"},{"start":71.648,"end":90.111,"text":"一共有通山303億的部分我們已經處理好但是有一個就是行政院立法院要求行政院去自行去解決什麼叫山洞的部分有600多億那600多億的這個預算呢目前行政院跟立法院好像還沒有溝通好所以我們對最像是有疑慮的但是我現在的問題是說我們對於地方政府的補助經費也沒有刪減也沒有凍結那為什麼這個部分沒有辦法"},{"start":100.033,"end":113.643,"text":"報告委員按照預算在執行的過程當中如果你已經是過去在長久執行的預算正在執行當中的話呢在我們的預算的這個撥補方面比較沒有問題但是如果是新增預算的話就會有這個問題"},{"start":119.605,"end":149.068,"text":"有些是業務費的部分也是被凍掉那是不是可以請市長說明一下好了因為如果說是執行中的案子啦就是生活圈跟這個永續的部分執行中的案子大概都沒有問題那這是新增的提案的部分就是新增提案的部分那就是因為這個院還沒有做最後的確認的話我們也不確定但是我們審查還是維持有審查那也就是說不是新增的部分你們應該經費都要撥下去了是嗎"},{"start":149.758,"end":175.746,"text":"就是執行中的部分比較沒有問題執行中的唯有問題是那所以你現在提的是指說還有286案還待核定的這些案件嗎我說明一下前瞻的部分就完全沒有辦法因為前瞻沒有通過前瞻沒有通過所以前瞻的部分是完全我想請一下署長就是說前四次這是第五期嘛前四次四期的這個前瞻計畫你們也常常是遇到先核定"},{"start":176.346,"end":203.822,"text":"之後然後經費才通過才撥補下去的有這種狀況吧我說明一下好了因為如果說現在前瞻是因為這一期完全沒有到目前完全沒有通過所以我們審查完以後也有核定但是我們就現在告訴他因為預算完全請問一下署長過去四期有沒有這種狀況就是我們的前瞻的預算都還沒審查完我們就已經有這個公告核定然後只是等經費下來再撥補下去我說明一下好了"},{"start":204.682,"end":232.455,"text":"次期的過去的前瞻有凍結但是都是書面報告而且我們都在1月份就直接提解凍書面書面只要送過來就解決了那現在為什麼不提呢現在第一個這是專案報告第二個就是說就像剛剛部長所提到的因為院還有這一個部分但是前瞻是完全沒有提啊前瞻是在立法院完全沒有排案"},{"start":234.648,"end":239.952,"text":"不是總預算好那這個部分的話只要立法院有排案的話你們就可以馬上來處理嗎預算沒有三讀前瞻預算沒有三讀對那以往前四期我知道有遇到這樣的一個狀況沒有這個問題沒有他只有那所以前瞻預算沒有三讀就我們馬上排案的話就馬上可以來處理是這樣嗎"},{"start":254.915,"end":282.603,"text":"那就要看大院的這個部分那針對這個部分的話我想請教一下就是說因為其實提升道路品質的計畫今年就要屆滿嘛那地方公所人家有改善這個道路品質的需求那所以請問一下這個時候115年的預算正在進行籌編能不能有新的計畫繼續推動沒有因為前瞻就到今年就結束了但是前瞻結束之後未來的這些道路品質改善計畫這些的"},{"start":284.763,"end":306.139,"text":"這相關的工程那應該是要有什麼樣子的一個方式能夠持續來進行因為它原來就是特別預算在公務預算的原來的編列裡面這個本來都是屬於地方的權責我剛剛講的是115年現在在編列預算嘛那所以你們是不是有應該要提出這樣相關的預算我說明一下就是原來在公務預算的認定裡面"},{"start":307.372,"end":315.698,"text":"提升道路品質也就是道路的重新跑鋪是屬於地方的全責如果沒有特別預算的話公務預算在過去在編列的時候他是不同意的"},{"start":316.403,"end":346.052,"text":"那所以你現在的意思就是說只要地方的預算不足的話你們還是可以編列公務預算來去做這樣子的沒有就是公務預算裡面因為這是屬於地方的權責所以這個部分在公務預算裡面也就是說現在我們的財化法通過之後那當地方有經費的時候就可以用這筆錢來去做那也是地方政府要自行自行那就是說現在找到這個今年結束之後有關的品質感應計畫就跟國土署沒有關係了是嗎不是是因為我們就沒有就不會再編列了"},{"start":346.332,"end":368.1,"text":"對 那如果有需要編列你們會不會編列有需要也是要院這邊 因為主計單 主計處的就是有需要你們應該也要提出請主計處這邊看是不是能夠整個預算的通盤檢討嘛 是這樣嗎不過因為現在遇到財化法也遇到這樣的問題那就是事權分工的問題嘛 大家可以來好好的討論一下要重新再討論"},{"start":368.9,"end":390.39,"text":"那另外這個想請教一下部長就是你最近全台跑透透參加這個人民事頭家的活動那因為您發言的內容其中參雜的一些我們可以先看一下影片那個聲音好嗎"},{"start":397.287,"end":399.308,"text":"可以暫停一下嗎沒有聲音"},{"start":412.617,"end":415.98,"text":"這個聲音可以弄出來嗎"},{"start":437.029,"end":450.425,"text":"早上有事故早上有事故"},{"start":456.872,"end":472.43,"text":"好部長您在這個影片當中提到的就是說我們砍了200億的這個預算喔導致75萬的出戶族領不到補貼喔請問一下我們有哪一個提案砍掉內政部200"},{"start":473.771,"end":491.623,"text":"報告委員我對於裡面講說公然造謠說謊是完全否認的我跟委員再重新講一次你給我一分鐘的時間第一個我們在今年有送到行政院所謂的300億中央擴大租金補貼住宅補助等這些部分送到行政院要求行政院給我們撥補總數總數是400億"},{"start":495.245,"end":509.634,"text":"的相關的部分那但是呢在住宅基金裡面呢有一項就是如果他要新撥補200億的話需要行政院的中央政府總預算通過才能撥補給我們那這個部分呢在行政院包括我們的院長"},{"start":510.475,"end":529.095,"text":"他在同樣多次的這個演講裡面也提到這裡面有一個總預算可不可以比去年多中央政府總預算增加2806億的時候有一個擴大租金補貼的新建設宅就是200億我現在所指的這個部分但是呢因為有一些委員 請問是國民黨還是民眾黨把他砍掉了嗎"},{"start":531.798,"end":539.28,"text":"我們在那個最後在立法院院會的時候是這樣子舉手通過的行政院的114年度的總預算您再給我一點時間然後再來就是很多人把我們自己在國土署裡面的部分引用的是台灣民眾黨的那個10%然後3%變成41.4億所以兩個黨團裡面所說的部分是指國土署的那個部分"},{"start":559.165,"end":575.109,"text":"跟我所說的這個200億的這個租金補貼是屬於新要放到我們的內政部裡面來做的住宅基金是不一樣的所以呢我不清楚說為什麼有一些委員呢沒有清除這所有所講的狀況之下然後說我是不忍罩人跟說我不能夠承認這個部分就是會影響75萬租戶是"},{"start":581.537,"end":593.004,"text":"報告委員原來在上一年度的時候我們的租金補貼是50萬戶但是我們後來在跟行政院要求的時候就是我們的預估可能會達到75萬戶所以現在所說的200億是從這個75萬戶裡面的比例在往前推的好那請問一下國土府那邊我們針對剛剛講的這個400億中凍結10%的這個41億的會凍結41億的部分會讓75萬人全數拿不到租金補助嗎"},{"start":610.538,"end":639.185,"text":"我說如果這算法上就是說因為我們現在變成說每一個月每一個月至少要31億到36億之間的數字所以最有可能就是到11月就完全不夠了所以說到11月嘛是嗎因為你租金補貼是每個月發放的所以到11月也就是說11月之前你只要提出解凍案就應該沒有這個問題吧也不會讓75萬租戶拿不到吧"},{"start":640.666,"end":655.295,"text":"對因為他變成說因為現在還有一個中央政府總預算的這個統三的600多億還沒有確認所以我們現在變成到底他最後能不能給我們這個我們也不知道請問一下這個414億的部分我們這個案子是凍結10%沒錯吧是"},{"start":657.677,"end":678.318,"text":"對那所以剛剛你也提到嘛到11月之後可能才會影響影響到12月份的部分那是按照如果說其他都沒有沒有改變的話就是照這個方式對那是不是只要你盡快的提出這個案子的解凍案送到我們這個我們這個委員會來提出解凍的申請我相信我們的招委一定會盡快的排案這個第一個是"},{"start":679.521,"end":703.646,"text":"對 程序問題就政院要跟立委這邊 立委院要交辦那所以是行政院的問題囉也不是 就是我們剛剛回到剛剛那一個基本的問題因為還沒有辦法自愛難省通案的部分 剛剛你們提到630幾億的這個通案我們覺得可以先跳過 但是非通案的部分其實就可以先提出報告啦非通案的部分咧"},{"start":704.386,"end":723.136,"text":"通刪的部分303億行政院都通刪了但是以這個案子來說我們就凍結百分之十立法院要求就是說有多的636億要行政院自己回去要看你要刪哪裡凍哪裡但是目前為止我們並沒有這樣的一個定案非常致案難行沒有任何一個提出來致案難行的地方大家共同來討論我們也提出來了嘛就是說有什麼致案難行的地方就提到立法院來大家共同來找出解方嘛而不是現在擺爛你知道嗎"},{"start":733.301,"end":750.19,"text":"報告徐委員在行政院提出復議案的時候已經把治癌難行跟違憲還有違預算法的部分都已經寫清楚了但是因為表決之後我們還是行政院沒有報通過立法院的這個其實以這個案子啦其實我知道郭平淑每一步都已經在抱怨了其實這個案子早就已經把解凍的報告寫好只是因為長官請問我們希望說自來水龍頭打上自來水龍頭大廈趕快為了人民為民生為主"},{"start":759.315,"end":779.608,"text":"因為部長我覺得我們還是要以民生為主啦希望這個部分趕快的來去處理能夠解凍就趕快提出來我們的召委都已經提前來做這樣的專案報告就是希望節省時間所以只要我們提出來我們就是要拜託行政院是不是能夠行政院是不是能夠提出來的提出好嗎對 那是不是請行政院能夠提出好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝徐益臻委員我再次跟委員會報告說明啦就其實當然我們理解啦就是說因為你有一個通商的壓力在那個地方"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":592,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時20分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳欣修署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。我想請教部長，國土署在辦理道路改善有三項計畫正在進行，目前國土署執行情況也良好，而且地方鄉鎮市公所也都給予高度的評價，現在還有幾個問題要請教部長跟署長，就是關於經費補助的問題，因為114年的總預算總統已經公布了，立法院針對地方補助經費沒有刪減也沒有凍結，為什麼現在補助的經費遲遲無法撥付給地方政府？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員是這樣子，在3月21的時候，確實是總統有公布114年相關的預算，但是這裡面有一項，我所瞭解窒礙難行的部分在於原來一共通刪303億的部分，我們已經處理好，但是有一個立法院要求行政院自行去解決什麼叫刪、凍的部分有六百多億，而六百多億的這筆預算，目前行政院跟立法院好像還沒有溝通好，所以我們對於這一項是有疑慮的。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，這個我知道，你說明過很多次了。但我現在的問題是，我們對於地方政府的補助經費沒有刪減也沒有凍結，為什麼這個部分沒有辦法？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，按照預算在執行的過程當中，如果是過去長久執行的預算正在執行當中，在我們預算的撥補方面比較沒有問題，但如果是新增……"],["許委員宇甄：這三項就是新的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：新增預算就會有這個問題，也就是說……"],["許委員宇甄：可是這三項都是舊的吧？都是延續性的計畫啊！"],["劉部長世芳：有些是業務費的部分，也是被凍掉。"],["許委員宇甄：那是不是可以請署長說明一下？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，如果是執行中的案子，就是生活圈跟永續的部分都是執行中的案子，大概都沒有問題。"],["許委員宇甄：對，提升道路品質也是嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：而新增提案的部分，因為院還沒有做最後確認的話，我們也不確定，但是我們還是維持有審查。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，不是新增的部分，你們經費應該都要撥下去了，是嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：就是執行中的部分比較沒有問題，執行中的唯一有問題是……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你現在提的是指還有286案待核定的這些案件嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，前瞻的部分就完全沒有辦法，因為前瞻沒有通過，所以前瞻的部分是完全……"],["許委員宇甄：我想請教一下署長，這是第五期嘛！前四期的前瞻計畫，你們也常常遇到先核定之後，經費才通過、才撥補下去的，有這種狀況吧？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下好了，現在前瞻是因為這一期到目前完全沒有通過，所以我們審查完以後，也有核定，但是我們現在就告訴它，因為預算完全……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下署長，過去四期有沒有這種狀況？就是前瞻預算都還沒審查完畢，你們就已經有公告核定，只是等經費下來再撥補下去？"],["吳署長欣修：過去四期的前瞻有凍結，但是都是書面報告，而且我們都在1月份就直接提解凍，因為書面只要送過來就解決了。"],["許委員宇甄：對，現在為什麼不提呢？"],["吳署長欣修：現在第一個，這是專案報告啦！第二個，就像剛剛部長所提到的，因為院還有這一個部分，但是前瞻是完全沒有提啊！前瞻在立法院完全沒有排案，不是總預算。"],["許委員宇甄：好，這個部分只要立法院有排案的話，你們就可以馬上來處理嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：前瞻預算沒有三讀。"],["許委員宇甄：對！以往前四期我知道也有遇到這樣的狀況……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有這個問題，它只有……"],["許委員宇甄：前瞻沒有三讀，我們馬上排案的話，就馬上可以來處理，是這樣嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：那就要看大院的這個部分。"],["許委員宇甄：好，針對這個部分，我想請教一下，其實提升道路品質計畫今年就要屆滿，地方公所仍然有改善道路品質的需求，所以請問一下這個時候115年預算正在進行籌編，能不能有新的計畫繼續推動？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，因為前瞻到今年就結束了。"],["許委員宇甄：但是前瞻結束之後，對未來的道路品質改善計畫，如鋪柏油路相關的工程，應該要用什麼樣的方式能夠持續來進行？"],["吳署長欣修：因為它原來就是特別預算，在公務預算原來的編列裡面，本來就是屬於地方的權責，之前是因為特別預算才有。"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛講的是現在在編列115年預算，所以你們是不是應該要提出相關的預算？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，原來在公務預算的認定裡面提升道路品質，也就是道路的重新刨鋪是屬於地方的權責，如果沒有特別預算的話，公務預算過去在編列的時候，它是不同意的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你現在的意思就是，只要地方預算不足的話，你們還是可以編列公務預算去做這樣的……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有、沒有。在公務預算裡面，因為這是屬於地方的權責，所以這個部分在公務預算裡面是不會有。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是現在我們的財劃法通過之後，當地方有經費的時候，就可以用這筆錢去做這樣的……"],["吳署長欣修：那也是地方政府要自行支應。"],["許委員宇甄：只要到今年結束之後，有關的品質改善計畫就跟國土署沒有關係了，是嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，是因為我們就不會再編列了。"],["許委員宇甄：對，如果有需要編列，你們會不會編列？"],["吳署長欣修：有需要也是要院這邊……因為主計總處的意思就是在於那個沒有辦法……"],["許委員宇甄：OK，好。就是有需要，你們應該也要提出，請主計處看是不是能夠對整個預算通盤檢討，是這樣嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：不過因為現在財劃法也遇到這樣的問題，這個我們其實不太敢……"],["許委員宇甄：那就是事權分工的問題，大家可以來好好地討論一下。"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個要重新再討論。"],["許委員宇甄：另外想請教一下部長，你最近全臺跑透透，參加「人民是頭家」的活動，因為您發言的內容其中摻雜了一些言論，我們可以先看一下影片。可以暫停一下嗎？這個聲音可以弄出來嗎？","（播放影片）"],["許委員宇甄：部長，您在這個影片當中提到我們砍了200億的預算，導致75萬租屋族領不到補貼。請問一下，我們有哪一個提案砍掉內政部200億的預算？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，對於裡面提到公然造謠、說謊，我是完全否認。我跟委員再重新講一次，你給我1分鐘的時間。"],["許委員宇甄：好！"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我們在今年有送到行政院，即300億中央擴大租金補貼、住宅補助等這些部分送到行政院，要求行政院給我們撥補總數400億相關的部分，但是在住宅基金裡面有一項，如果它要新撥補200億的話，需要行政院中央政府總預算通過才能撥補給我們，這個部分在行政院，包括我們院長在多次的演講裡面同樣也提到，這裡面有一個總預算可不可以比去年多？中央政府總預算增加2,806億的時候，有一個擴大租金補貼、新建社宅的部分，就是200億，我現在所指的是這個部分，但是因為有一些委員……"],["許委員宇甄：請問是國民黨還是民眾黨把它砍掉的？"],["劉部長世芳：最後在立法院院會的時候，是這樣子舉手通過的啊！行政院114年度的總預算，您再給我一點時間。"],["許委員宇甄：等一下請主席再給我一點時間。"],["劉部長世芳：再來就是很多人針對在國土署裡面的部分，引用的是台灣民眾黨凍10%、刪10%，變成41.4億，所以兩個黨團裡面所說的部分是指國土署的那個部分，跟我所說的200億租金補貼是屬於新的、要放到內政部裡面作為住宅基金是不一樣的，我不清楚為什麼有一些委員在沒有弄清楚我所講的狀況之下，說我是公然造謠跟說謊，我不能夠承認這個部分。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛的影片你有提到，就是會影響75萬租屋……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在上一年度的時候，原來我們的租金補貼是50萬戶，但是我們後來跟行政院要求的時候，我們預估可能會達到75萬戶，我現在所說的200億是從75萬戶的比例往前推的。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那請問一下國土署，我們針對剛剛講的400億中凍結10%，即會凍結41億的部分，會讓75萬人全數拿不到租金補助嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，這是算法上啦！因為我們現在變成每一個月至少要31億到36億之間的數字，所以最有可能到11月就完全不夠了。"],["許委員宇甄：所以說到11月嘛！是嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以75萬戶還是會影響。"],["許委員宇甄：因為你租金補貼是每個月發放的，所以到11月就不夠了，也就是說11月之前，你只要提出解凍案就應該沒有這個問題吧？也不會讓75萬租戶拿不到吧？"],["吳署長欣修：對，因為現在還有一個中央政府總預算統刪的六百多億還沒有確認，所以現在變成到底它最後能不能給我們這個經費，我們也不知道。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問一下，針對414億的部分，這個案子是凍結10%沒錯吧？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以剛剛你也提到嘛！到11月之後可能才會影響，也就是影響到12月份的部分。"],["吳署長欣修：那是如果其他都沒有改變的話，就是照這個方式。"],["許委員宇甄：對，那是不是只要你儘快提出這個案子的解凍案，送到我們委員會來提出解凍的申請，我相信我們的召委一定會儘快排案。"],["吳署長欣修：報告，第一個是程序問題，政院要跟立院要交辦，才交到委員會這邊來。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是行政院的問題囉？"],["吳署長欣修：也不是，就是回到剛剛那個基本的問題，沒有辦法、窒礙難行……"],["許委員宇甄：針對通案的部分，也就是剛剛你們提到六百三十幾億的通案，我們覺得可以先跳過，但是非通案的部分，其實就可以先提出報告。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，那個不叫通案。"],["許委員宇甄：非通案的部分呢？"],["劉部長世芳：關於通刪的部分，303億行政院都通刪了。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我知道，但是以這個案子來說我們就凍結10%嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：立法院要求多的636億要行政院自己回去看要刪哪裡、凍哪裡，但是目前為止，我們並沒有這樣的定案……"],["許委員宇甄：你們覺得窒礙難行嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：非常窒礙難行，因為沒有任何一個……"],["許委員宇甄：好，窒礙難行，那是不是請主計總處能夠提出來窒礙難行的地方，大家共同來討論，我們也提出來了嘛！就是說有什麼窒礙難行的地方就提到立法院來，大家共來找出解方，而不是現在擺爛你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告許委員，在行政院提出覆議案的時候，已經把窒礙難行跟違憲還有違反預算法的部分都寫清楚了，但是因為表決的時候，我們還是……"],["許委員宇甄：其實就我們的了解……"],["劉部長世芳：行政院沒有辦法通過立法院的表決，就是六百多億的部分。"],["許委員宇甄：其實以這個案子而言，我知道國土署內部都已經在報院了，其實這個案子早就已經把解凍的報告寫好，只是因為長官沒有簽核……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們希望自來水龍頭打開就有水，可是源頭如果沒有處理的話，自來水龍頭怎麼會有水出來呢？"],["許委員宇甄：所以我們還是希望大家趕快為了人民、以民生為主啦！部長，我覺得我們還是要以民生為主啦！希望這個部分趕快去處理，能夠解凍就趕快提出來，我們的召委都已經提前來做這樣的專案報告，就是希望節省時間，所以只要你們提出來……"],["劉部長世芳：我想不是從委員會，而是要從院會。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，那就是要拜託行政院能夠儘快地提出，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：希望立法院的院會可以體現……"],["許委員宇甄：對，那是不是請行政院能夠提出好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝許宇甄委員。","我再次跟委員會說明，當然我們理解就是因為有一個通刪的壓力在那個地方，所以當然壓力會很大，不過我想我們之前有辦過專案報告的幾個案子，包含租金補貼的四十幾億，對不對？還有今天所討論的生活圈有1,750萬，這些東西其實都跟民生建設有比較高的關聯性，我相信即便在內政部部裡面討論的時候，你大概也不會優先撙節這一部分，所以我想這一部分先行解凍應該是不衝突的，我們期待趕快來提案、趕快付委，我們早點把這個程序走完，以上。","下一位請陳雪生委員質詢，陳雪生委員，陳雪生委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員請質詢，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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關渡大橋是公路局管但是關渡新橋是新北市府那連接兩邊公路局管中間這段橋樑是新北市府所以 局長 副局長我現在先提出來 當然過去有很多的 不管是說我們那時候爭取淡北聯外道路的時候行政部門也是遲遲沒有拍板定案 到最後才拍板那也已經晚了兩三年的時間"},{"start":407.785,"end":424.684,"text":"那但是我們現在期待的是關渡新橋趕快來施作那是不是能夠再跟新北師傅來共同討論到底現在可行明孤做完之後施工團隊計畫發包等等以及後來的維護管理我覺得這應該一比一討論吧"},{"start":425.925,"end":449.178,"text":"跟委員報告這個是我們一直跟新北市政府都有在討論新北市政府他針對淡水和兩岸的道路的規劃其實他是整體的整個範圍在做處理的所以他不是主管我們的省道在處理因為整個我們省道是主幹但是其實車流都是區域性"},{"start":450.338,"end":476.353,"text":"所以他整體的交通的路網怎麼建過是我們是要跟新北市政府一起來討論我們現在就講我當然是要講是一個更上位的計畫要怎麼樣來去做運輸管理因為我們不能只建零不建山只建樹不建林所以我現在在討論的我現在在提出來是說第一什麼時候新北市府可行性評估現在是新北市府這邊公務處要來做報那之後也會報給公務局"},{"start":479.975,"end":498.864,"text":"也會報交通部審核到目前為止還沒有已經過了兩年了那是不是能夠關心一下因為2022年就核定的計畫嘛那時候就蘇貞昌院長還來到我們那邊拍板說淡北道路然後另外那時候也宣布說要有貫渡新橋嘛但我真的不希望說我們中央部會到最後只變成是"},{"start":502.113,"end":521.902,"text":"補貼出錢的單位而中間的管理維護變成是跟地方兩個講好聽點是各自負責這樣講不好聽點就互踢皮球啊副局長這個是不是能夠我知道委員的意思啦是讓把層級拉高當然因為淡江大橋是公路局是關渡大橋是公路局沒有道理關渡新橋"},{"start":524.048,"end":542.977,"text":"這樣一級吧 跟委員報告 因為關渡新橋是接淡北道路市政府管的那他未來要接到底是接台六市還是要應該未來還是接台六市啦所以需要溝通嘛 是兩邊的銜接也是公路局 好不好"},{"start":544.158,"end":558.46,"text":"副議長什麼時候能夠比較明確跟新北市府討論針對關渡新橋的部分他也給本市一個後續的追蹤報告他還在其中報告還沒出來那我們會再催促新北市政府加速趕快來處理"},{"start":559.321,"end":586.947,"text":"後續是不是也請給本席相關資料你們怎麼跟新北市府那新北市府現在的一個狀況我們一起共同再來這個是一個起點但是本席會持續追關渡新橋也是我們當地民眾非常期待不要說淡江大橋當然很期待但是淡江大橋也蠻久時間了那年底會完工本席也期待是說我們現在討論關渡新橋不要也拖那麼久時間我們一起來努力好嗎謝謝"},{"start":589.505,"end":592.955,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的質詢 下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時10分）主席，麻煩請交通部公路局副局長。"],["主席：有請公路局副局長。"],["洪委員孟楷：副局長，本席今天特別感謝召委安排市區道路品質改善計畫的議程，不管是內政部、不管是交通部，這兩大部會其實都對市區道路有著非常重要的責任。我先讓你看一下，上個月我們淡水地區關渡大橋發生砂石車急煞造成整個泥漿翻覆的事件，那一天剛好是禮拜五下午，所以那一天道路真的非常的壅塞，關渡大橋我想副局長應該很了解，它可能是交通量最大的一個橋墩，對不對？"],["林副局長聰利：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：淡江大橋在今年年底完工之前，大家都還是認為關渡大橋交通量一事，非常需要立即來做改善，我先請教，當天我們看到這樣一個新聞，當然那一天立即有做處理，不管是地方的警察或者是相關的公務同仁，那有沒有釐清相關肇事責任以及後續對這個駕駛的求償？"],["林副局長聰利：跟委員報告，因為這個案子是我們工務段在處理，所以我這邊沒有了解，但是依照規定，我們還是會去追究，如果是因為砂石車所致，我們還是會去追究砂石車的相關責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：有公共危險相關的法律責任，對不對？"],["林副局長聰利：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們搜尋「大型砂石車急煞泥漿翻覆」後，發覺這不是特例，其實滿常出現的，我隨便搜尋一下，包括2023年5月，五股交流道前土石噴一地；2025年3月，砂石車急煞，害4名騎士慘摔跌；還有剛剛吳琪銘委員所關心的土城，也有發生大型砂石車急煞事件；另外，2024年9月中壢也有發生。所以大型砂石車不管是急煞而造成這樣一個道路的狀況，甚至後面造成用路人的危險，我想請教，不管是公路局、不管是相關單位，有沒有針對這個部分做更進一步的管制或是檢討？"],["林副局長聰利：跟委員報告，就法令規定的部分，當然處罰是一定要的，然後賠償是一定要的。但是假設說……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在討論是防範未然的部分。"],["林副局長聰利：我要講的是，我們會針對它的肇事資料，包括是哪家貨運公司造成的，如果一定期間內有超過幾件的時候，我們監理單位就會直接找貨運公司訪查或是做教育訓練，就是會做處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這也是本席想要了解的跟本席所想的，這些有可能是累犯，一般來講，通常會發生這個狀況，有可能是超載、有可能是載比較多，然後沒有保持適當的安全距離，或者是它讓前面的摩托車或是汽車而急煞，所以累犯的部分，先不說這是黑名單，但我們有所謂的警示資料？"],["林副局長聰利：有管制、有統計。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前比較常肇事的部分，哪些資料是我們有所掌握的呢？"],["林副局長聰利：業者的部分我還要再查，但是像台2線有幾個快速道路，剛剛委員有談到，在進出的時候，尤其是超速、超載而翻覆的，這個情況最多，所以我們都有在管制，而且我們都有在注意，尤其是業者的部分，我們會去做輔導、做教育訓練。"],["洪委員孟楷：副局長，這個部分請私下提供本席相關資料。"],["林副局長聰利：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是我們怎麼樣協助、輔導、管制業者，以及真真正正所謂黑名單的部分，當然，如果真的是交通意外，沒有辦法避免，但如果某些業者是特別警示的或常出現這樣一個狀況，當然行政機關應該要介入。"],["林副局長聰利：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外，關渡大橋的問題確實是非常嚴重，現在新北市府也在做所謂的淡北道路，我們也有提出要有關渡新橋的規劃，我想請教副局長，淡江大橋的管理單位是誰？"],["林副局長聰利：未來淡江大橋的管理單位是公路局。"],["洪委員孟楷：關渡大橋的管理單位是誰？"],["林副局長聰利：也是公路局。"],["洪委員孟楷：未來關渡新橋的管理單位或是施工計畫的提出或是建設是誰來負責？"],["林副局長聰利：未來應該會納到市區道路，其實它的道路定位要看新北市政府未來規劃的定位才能決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在關渡新橋到底是由誰管理？因為很多民眾也在期待啊！"],["林副局長聰利：目前新北市政府在辦理可行性評估當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。另外一點，副局長，中央、地方應該是一體，共同、同心來做，尤其是北海岸地區，我想你不否認淡水現在有越來越多的人口成長，八里也有越來越多的人口成長，且關渡大橋的使用量也是全臺最大，而關渡新橋連接淡水這一端的台2線，管理機關是誰？"],["林副局長聰利：台2線目前的管理機關也是公路局。"],["洪委員孟楷：關渡新橋連接到八里端，大家也期待它能夠連接到台64線，而台64線的管理單位是誰？"],["林副局長聰利：也是公路局。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你會不會覺得很奇怪？今天這三座橋，淡江大橋是公路局，關渡大橋是公路局，結果要新做關渡新橋時，卻變成是新北市政府。關渡新橋淡水端這邊連接的道路是歸公路局管；八里端這邊連接的台64線道路也是歸公路局管，結果中間的橋梁是要新北市府來管，未來如果做起來的話，就變成是特立獨行。淡江大橋、關渡大橋是公路局管，但是關渡新橋是新北市府管，連接兩邊的道路是公路局管，中間這段橋梁是新北市府管。副局長，我現在先提出來這個部分，當然過去有很多的情況，包括我們當初爭取淡北聯外道路的時候，行政部門也是遲遲沒有拍板定案，到最後才拍板定案也已經晚了兩、三年的時間，但是我們現在期待的是關渡新橋趕快來施作，所以是不是能夠再跟新北市府來共同討論，現在可行性評估做完之後，施工團隊計畫、發包，以及後來的維護管理等等，我覺得這應該要一起討論吧？"],["林副局長聰利：跟委員報告，我們一直跟新北市政府也都有在討論，包括目前新北市政府針對淡水河兩岸的道路規劃，其實它是整體、整個範圍在做處理的，所以不光是我們的省道在處理，因為整個來說我們的省道是主幹，但是車流都是區域性的，所以整體的交通路網怎麼建構，我們要跟新北市政府一起來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：副局長，我要講的是一個更上位的計畫，要怎麼樣去做運輸管理？因為我們不能只見林不見山、只見樹不見林，所以我現在提出來的是，第一，新北市府的可行性評估，現在是新北市府工務處要來提報告，之後會報給公路局，也會報交通部審核，到目前為止都還沒有提出，但時間也已經過了兩年，所以是不是能夠關心一下？因為這是2022年就核定的計畫，那時候蘇貞昌院長還到我們那邊拍板說淡北道路；那時候也宣布要有關渡新橋，但我真的不希望中央部會到時候變成只是補貼出錢的單位，而中間的管理、維護變成是地方的，講好聽點是各自負責，講不好聽點就是互踢皮球。"],["林副局長聰利：我知道委員的意思，希望把層級拉高，然後做整體的規劃。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，因為淡江大橋是公路局管、關渡大橋是公路局管，沒有道理關渡新橋就降一級吧？"],["林副局長聰利：跟委員報告，因為關渡新橋是接淡北道路，那是市政府管的，而它未來到底是接台64線還是要如何處理？我想未來還是會接台64線。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以需要溝通，是不是？"],["林副局長聰利：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩邊的銜接也是公路局管，副局長，什麼時候可以比較明確地跟新北市府進行討論？就是針對關渡新橋的部分，也請給本席一個後續的追蹤報告。"],["林副局長聰利：跟委員報告，它的期中報告還沒出來，我們會再催促新北市政府加速、趕快來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：後續也請給本席相關的資料，包括你們怎麼跟新北市府討論、新北市府現在的狀況等等。"],["林副局長聰利：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是一個起點，本席會持續追，關渡新橋也是當地民眾非常期待的，當然淡江大橋大家很期待，但是淡江大橋時間也滿久了，它年底會完工，本席也期待我們現在討論的關渡新橋不要也拖那麼久時間，我們一起來努力，好嗎？謝謝。"],["林副局長聰利：好，是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","下一位丁學忠委員改書面。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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主席我們一會同仁請郭督俗我們的署長吳署長有請委員好"},{"start":15.233,"end":38.237,"text":"好 市長好 今天針對我們生活圈的道路交通系統的建設計畫本席也比較關心的就是人行道的問題那我在這邊我要首先來肯定我們國土署因為在我的選區 不管是土城 山峽所有的人行道的一個大改變"},{"start":39.478,"end":67.459,"text":"連市長到土城他也說去經營記者會記者會這個中央路整條道路的人行道都全部都更新這是我們所有的市民最有感然後三峽包括我們三峽的老街的周邊人行道我們也都一併的去把它做改善那你這個經費還是非常龐大光是土城中央路"},{"start":68.362,"end":96.873,"text":"就兩億六千多萬還有你三峽還有我們的周邊的生活生活圈都是真的做了非常的多啦所以我在這邊喔我也要再次的肯定我們國土署在這幾年真的為我們整個社會做一大的改變那你看一些校園校園的周邊周邊的人行道的一大的改變的安全行走"},{"start":97.441,"end":107.127,"text":"那我本席比較關心的就是針對我們去年我們的永續提升行人安全計劃113年至116年4年編了400億那未來這個經費會不會因為砍了預算凍結的預算會不會造成排擠"},{"start":118.873,"end":144.814,"text":"我請署長來做說明報告一下就是說永續的部分其實他在目前來講我們還是持續的在受理審核受理審核其實現在也是在等最後的這個院的這邊因為他有通山的部分還沒有做一個確認所以我們現在到目前是持續受理案件但是審核的部分我們就先審但是"},{"start":145.479,"end":170.919,"text":"要等最後的結果才能再做核定那去年度的部分照樣執行的部分因為它有去年的預算那所以這個部分會照常來執行那但是接下來就要看這個後續的這個解凍的部分那另外一個還就是財化法的部分如果財化法最後通過那最後通過要我們做重新做預算的一個修正的話那這個部分我們也會在早幾天之後重新來討論預算分配的問題"},{"start":173.493,"end":196.867,"text":"謝謝,謝謝署長的說明其實你說在這幾年,真的我們國土署預祝到我們地方的建設經費真的是非常多我光是我的選區啦,主席光是我的選區喔你看啦,國土署不管是人行道的改善,還有道路的改善真的這幾年我們都還是很肯定"},{"start":198.07,"end":212.06,"text":"所以在這我也在此跟署長研究就針對我們三峽有一個N3隧道那新北市他們也要提出計劃但是N3隧道也將會到72億那N3隧道要是打通的話可以改觀到說我們三峽老街太扯的問題"},{"start":220.945,"end":224.547,"text":"所以現在在我們生活圈裡面是不是說在這個部分,我們要怎麼來在我們中央我也知道現在政府都要勤奮但是在我們的先前起步"},{"start":234.485,"end":262.791,"text":"的部分要怎麼說來來配合新北市不管說整個的隧道的設計經費啦還是我們未來要推動你可以分一二三期多無所謂只要有推動對我們我們的地方他的交通不然你說在老街我們走路你根本就沒辦法走這裡可以說徹底來改觀這個地方的我們的交通網順暢是不是這樣署長說明"},{"start":264.752,"end":268.742,"text":"可是這條路這條路其實是另外一個解決三峽"},{"start":271.024,"end":298.616,"text":"其實地區假日這種擁塞很重要的一條路那因為他也分了三段這三段加起來總經費其實很龐大大概有將近70億的這個預算那所以這個部分其實第一個經費龐大 第二個就是說他出來銜接的這個道路的這個路段那這個當然新北市政府還必須要跟高工局再協商清楚因為他穿過的這個部分到底要走哪條路線因為我們到目前還不確定"},{"start":299.397,"end":314.744,"text":"那但是我們其實之前委員這邊也有關心新北市政府也有來文有來函表示說他們未來想要增設這一個部分那我們也是請他先跟高工舉先協商好確認那個路線那不過因為確認路線他同時也要做環評"},{"start":316.07,"end":341.598,"text":"他同時也要做環評所以他的關鍵還要等環評進行了以後都市計畫會送過來那我們協助他做相關的變更以後那就會再把這個完整的計畫書再提交給我們我想這部分我們跟新北市政府這邊都會注意這個進度就會把它實施成我們在行政上能先配合我們會先配合他來進行好 謝謝署長這案子叫我幫他徹底解決一下他這塞車的問題對"},{"start":343.879,"end":360.81,"text":"再來一點就是我們上上個禮拜我們到土城的司法園區去會堪那我們那個森林公園森林公園那一個也是我們新北市最大的公園那未來因為停車的問題我們一定要納入停車問題你公園那麼大那你停車不方便"},{"start":368.314,"end":392.97,"text":"也會造成整個交通的紛亂尤其是未來我們地方法院地檢署都在那裡跟看守所所以你的停車的配置我們還是要注意一下要跟新北市大家要怎麼配合這個停車可以來做改觀是啊 因為相關件就是說我們現在都市界已經過了 也已經在"},{"start":394.855,"end":420.883,"text":"工廠在做 現在如果要增加這個停車場的部分可能就是這個污水處理場用地因為之前新北市政府曾經表達過說可能暫時需要性不高那我們 我想這我們有請土叢處 地政司跟土叢處這邊再跟新北市政府再做確認如果那一塊污水處理場的確未來在它整個的污水下水道系統裡面不需要留這塊地的話那而且 但是呢大家對於這個"},{"start":422.003,"end":441.016,"text":"公園的需求又大那或許依照順著地形現在就可以做一個地下停車場然後上面再做這一個公園那這樣大概對於民眾的需求大概一件二個啦都夠得到還可以包括去森林公園前面要停車也方便所以這部分我想放進"},{"start":442.096,"end":469.223,"text":"近期大概部裡面跟新北市政府如果協商確認的話我想就可以照委員的這個就照這個方式來進行那到時候我們也會請新北市政府再積極跟交通部或相關的單位再爭取看有沒有相關的停車場的興建經費那上面我們再用這個重劃的用區段徵收的工程經費再去幫他施作這樣的一個公園綠地那這樣我想都可以解決委員所提到的這個停車場的一個問題"},{"start":471.223,"end":475.174,"text":"好謝謝 謝謝署長謝謝署長的答覆好謝謝感謝謝謝好謝謝吳啓平委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時2分）主席、與會同仁。請國土署署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長好。今天針對我們的生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫，本席比較關心的就是人行道的問題，我在這邊首先要肯定國土署，因為在我的選區，不管是土城、三峽，所有人行道的大改變，連市長到土城去舉行記者會，他也說中央路整條道路的人行道全部都更新，這是所有市民最有感的。包含三峽老街的周邊人行道也都一併改善，這個經費還是非常龐大，光是土城中央路就要兩億六千多萬，還有三峽及周邊的生活圈，真的做了非常多，所以我在這邊也要再次肯定國土署，在這幾年真的為整個社會做了一個大改變。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：你看一些校園周邊人行道的一大改變就是能安全行走。本席比較關心的是針對去年我們的永續提升人行安全計畫，從113年至116年，4年編了400億，未來這個經費會不會因為砍了預算、凍結預算造成排擠？我請署長來做說明。"],["吳署長欣修：報告一下，永續的部分在目前來講，我們還是持續在受理審核，其實現在也是在等最後院這邊……因為通刪的部分還沒有做確認，所以到目前我們是持續受理案件，審核的部分我們就先審，但是要等最後的結果才能再做核定。去年度照樣執行的部分，因為有去年的預算，所以這個部分會照常執行，但是接下來就要看後續解凍的情況。另外一個就是財劃法的部分，如果財劃法最後通過要我們重新做預算修正的話，這個部分我們也會再召集地方政府重新來討論預算分配的問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝署長的說明，其實這幾年國土署挹注到地方的建設經費真的非常多，光是我的選區，你看不管是人行道的改善還是道路的改善，在這幾年我們真的都還是很肯定。在這裡我再次跟署長來研究，三峽有一個鳶山隧道，新北市也要提出計畫，但是鳶山隧道的經費到72億，且鳶山隧道要是打通的話可以解決三峽老街塞車的問題，這也是在我們生活圈裡面，所以針對這個部分，我們要如何在中央……我也知道現在經費都有欠缺，但是在我們先前起步的部分要怎麼來配合新北市，不管是整個隧道的設計經費，還是未來可以分一、二、三期來推動都無所謂，只要有推動就有助於地方的交通，不然在老街，假日根本就沒辦法行走，唯有如此才能澈底解決交通網能否順暢的問題，是不是請署長說明？"],["吳署長欣修：確實，這條路其實是另外一個能解決三峽地區假日壅塞很重要的一條路，因為它也分了三段，這三段加起來總經費其實很龐大，大概有將近70億的預算，所以這個部分：第一、經費龐大，第二、它出來銜接道路的路段，新北市政府當然還必須要跟高公局再協商清楚，因為它穿過的部分到底要走哪條路線，我們到目前還不確定。但是之前委員這邊也有關心，新北市政府也有來函表示說他們未來想要增設這一個部分，我們也請它先跟高公局協商好，確認那個路線，不過確認路線的同時也要做環評，所以它的關鍵還要等環評進行了以後，都市計畫送過來，我們協助它做相關的變更以後，會再把完整的計畫書提交給我們，這個部分我們跟新北市政府都會注意進度，若在行政上能配合，我們會先配合它來進行。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝署長，這樣才有辦法澈底解決塞車的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：再來一點，就是上上個禮拜我們到土城司法園區會勘，那個森林公園是新北市最大的公園，未來有關停車的問題，我們也一定要納入，你看那個公園那麼大，如果停車不方便也會造成整個交通的混亂，尤其未來地方法院、地檢署、看守所都在那裡，所以有關停車的配置，我們還是要注意一下，看要怎樣跟新北市來配合，讓停車問題可以解決。"],["吳署長欣修：是，最關鍵的就是現在都市計畫已經過了，工程也在進行，如果要增加停車場的部分，可能就是在污水處理廠用地，因為之前新北市政府曾經表達過，可能暫時需要性不高，我們有請地政司和土重處跟新北市政府再做確認。如果未來在整個污水下水道系統裡面的確不需要留污水處理廠那一塊地，而大家對於公園的需求又大的話，或許順著地形現在就可以做一個地下停車場，上面再做這個公園，這樣對於民眾的需求可以一舉兩得，都顧得到，而且去森林公園要停車也方便。針對這個部分，近期部裡面跟新北市政府如果有協商確認的話，我想就可以照委員所講的方式來進行，到時候我們也會請新北市政府再積極跟交通部或相關單位爭取看看有沒有相關的停車場興建經費，然後上面我們再用區段徵收的工程經費去幫它施作一個公園綠地，這樣應該都可以解決委員所提關於停車場的問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝署長的答復。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。下一位我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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早安今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係但其實每一個題目凍結都是監督的延伸所以我們希望透過這樣東西來做一下政策對話今天本期的質詢有兩個重點第一個我們探討一下你未來生活圈的道路補助的一些用法跟未來因應也許財化法等等上路之後要不要做一些檢討我們可以先進行一些政策討論第二部分我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部來請教一下相關的一些規範"},{"start":48.095,"end":70.885,"text":"第一個我們有看這大部分的生活圈的道路系統建設計畫就本席的了解這個計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府各個地方政府針對這個轄內的市區道路做打通也好或者是新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫當然就是希望改善各個城市內部的交通路網的完整性"},{"start":71.905,"end":89.85,"text":"那這樣的方向其實本席都認同我剛剛聽了我們國土署吳興修署長的這些說明其實也蠻清楚這個東西當然申請都非常非常的踴躍從中央政府的角度來看只有很困擾因為這個餅不夠大大家都希望可以來爭取補助所以執行率也非常好這一點本席都非常肯定不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論這個未來這個財化法要上路對不對"},{"start":93.971,"end":109.732,"text":"那換言之一定會排擠到中央的預算也一定涉及到市權的調整這本席充分的理解那我希望跟內政部來做一下討論啦就是說我們國土組現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實直接下給地方政府但是你如果財化法之後各個地方政府的經費是增加的"},{"start":110.253,"end":130.405,"text":"對不對那增加的時候那當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助所以我今天要討論的是市權的調整的部分我現在要請教我們的部長請教我們署長的地方是說我們現在有除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外針對跨域的道路啊"},{"start":131.386,"end":152.228,"text":"這個中央政府有沒有特別的想法我舉一個例子比如說我龜山一個非常大家期待的一個建設這是我們龜山的大平頂地區就有一個壽山路就從我們龜山的平頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區這其實是一個上班族通勤每天都會塞車的那以前因為龜山的地勢嘛因為有山路的關係所以很狹窄上下班的時候難免塞車嘛"},{"start":152.868,"end":179.785,"text":"那加上這邊的A7重化區 很多的鄉親搬進來那當然都希望交通可以再改善那這件事情 桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商好 可是問題來了從桃園的角度 很多人要來長庚醫院 來環亞科上班我這邊的住戶也變多了可是從新北的角度 它不見得有助於對新北的這個交通需求來講 它就沒有很大就變成說常常這種跨縣市的道路建設常常有這種 有一個很想做 有一個不太想做"},{"start":180.245,"end":194.574,"text":"那這個東西如果兩邊沒有達成共識它其實工程就進行延宕的一個狀態像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念嘛我就進行拓寬然後進行環形高架這當然就有大建設但請問這樣子的一個建設喔除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外中央有沒有角色"},{"start":196.718,"end":221.233,"text":"可以報告一下因為過去的確在指引跨縣市的時候那如果同屬生活圈的部分大概都會一定會有這個協調跨部會因為尤其像這種跨縣市的很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法那這是第一個第二個就是說這也涉及到經費分配的原則所以"},{"start":222.013,"end":238.881,"text":"加上未來加上財化法這樣的一個方式那很可能在以後的這個第一個是市權第二個是財化法以後整個監會分配那更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做一個整理像這個案子應該也是其中的一個"},{"start":239.581,"end":254.651,"text":"會遇到淚灘 我覺得我今天提的概念是這樣就你現行生活權你講五年好像兩百多億嘛對不對每年數十億的這樣一個經費你都是補助各縣政府在縣市內的嘛城市內的道路嘛對不對那這個東西一定會降下來嘛因為我如果財化法我要允許一部分出去撥給地方政府對不對"},{"start":255.111,"end":279.966,"text":"那你也不會全部歸零嘛我想應該不至於會全部歸零你中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費本身就建議嘛就是說如果未來財務法上路之後我地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了他城市內部的道路他當然就自己要負責的比例就更高那相對來講你中央的餅雖然變小了我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯也就是說我中央可以調度之後我就要以資源跨域的為主嘛"},{"start":280.286,"end":289.299,"text":"就以資源跨域跨域的建設為主嘛像這樣有些比如桃園想做新北不要那麼想中央來多幫忙是不是就降低這件事情這個成功的門檻"},{"start":290.305,"end":316.643,"text":"那我覺得中央如果資源變小這樣子來分配來講其實是對於大家都比較好的有各縣市自己要處理的道路你各縣市要多擔負一點責任但是跨域的因為沒有辦法協調可能會卡關對不對所以中央要來多幫忙請問署長你認不認同這樣的政策方向其實中央能做大概是跨域的協調啦因為我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來因為其實有時候縣市政府不太想做有時候可能是地理條件的問題"},{"start":318.1,"end":340.674,"text":"它不單純是經費的問題是地理條件的問題像這條壽山路大概我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過那它也是覺得因為在它的這個範圍內執行上還要再拓寬的話以現有的地理條件是相對是困難度很高的所以它大概意願度是比較低所以它需要比較多的跨部會跟跨縣市的協調"},{"start":342.115,"end":368.007,"text":"我想這才是在如果未來要做這件事的話那像我們之前協調這一個河美大橋那就是從台中到彰化那其實就是部會也有協調縣市也有協調他才能有努力的所以那都不單純是經濟的問題就地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力就是因為譬如說我要上下山或你剛剛講的河美大橋我要跨越河流他的經費是高的嘛所以對於縣市這種壓力是大的我才講嘛"},{"start":368.527,"end":384.192,"text":"所以這種跨域的不好處理的你中央要多補助一點嘛我覺得這樣子比較合理也比較公平那各城市內部的未來就是有財務法之後來處理這是本期的一個政策建議不只是這個壽山路的拓寬比如說這個湖山街從我們的這個龜山的這個兔坑"},{"start":384.992,"end":407.561,"text":"大兔坑地區 銜接到英哥 其實也是同樣的道理就因為跨越了縣市的界限 但是沒辦法做這我想部長也好 署長也好 都了解全國各地不只是桃園 其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路我希望 因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分嘛 對不對其實都有 也是有 但是相對來講你如果全部都要照顧的話 你一定是增多周少嘛"},{"start":407.901,"end":428.847,"text":"對不對未來就調整的時候我希望看到內政部跟國土組在政策上面稍微做一下思考怎麼樣在跨域的這樣子的建設上面加大補助的力道讓這些東西可以落地我想這是中央很好的成績啦這是本席的藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下會後用書面來回復一下可行性可以嗎了解"},{"start":430.441,"end":452.928,"text":"好 謝謝第二個本期要關注的也叫做道路的品質的部分因為你們這裡面那個三件事情嘛其中有一段是道路品質的部分很多人都講啊就說這個路平其實明明就是一個很基本的東西那為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過中央地方都換過怎麼還是搞不定呢這個希望花一點時間來請教一下這我們內政部現在齁現在齁這個"},{"start":455.149,"end":469.746,"text":"道路品質的問題很多時候都講我們其實都有編列這個重新跑舖的預算嘛然後我們在重新跑舖的時候也都會把品質做好這個我倒覺得問題比較小但是只有一個問題是你不可能全台灣的道路都重新跑舖嘛所以一定會有中間的過渡期"},{"start":470.046,"end":484.976,"text":"那加上什麼管線啊開挖等等所以真正會造成各地的路不平的問題其實都是有管線工程然後他中間在等待重新跑舖過程中叫做假修復嘛也就是說施工單位先行進行修復的這樣一個狀況好問題來了假修復就會出事啊比如說這條文化一路這個變成越野賽道"},{"start":491.98,"end":517.043,"text":"一邊聾起來一邊凹下去那其實非常危險那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛對不對我想請問的是如果假修復的品質不好現在除了各縣市政府當然我們桃園養工處去開一個罰單除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外中央有沒有一套比如說針對假修復的品質有一套完整的規範然後針對沒有辦法做到的有沒有一些懲罰的機制是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明"},{"start":518.721,"end":540.103,"text":"好 說明一下因為這一個所謂的一個道路管挖修補或者是說在相關的這個建案他必須要接管他必須要做這個相關的挖路在鋪其實在各縣市的 這屬於養護的部分各縣市其實都有訂定相關的跑鋪的一個處理的機制那我們在"},{"start":540.743,"end":552.767,"text":"但是因為他是屬於他不屬於這個條例他不屬於法令所以大概都是用注意事項或者是說在這個復原的部分我准不准許你在我這個做驗收"},{"start":554.898,"end":581.178,"text":"最常出現大概第一個就是說我的回填品質不佳對這是第一個大問題回填品質不佳那往往就是回填的集配料裡面品質不好那或者是說我回填的時候我這個水泥的灌漿的部分也沒有做好那這是第二個那但是關鍵是在於說它在整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責第二個我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的"},{"start":581.798,"end":607.095,"text":"的標準那這樣他才有懲罰的依據否則我們目前知道大多數他是沒有所謂的處罰那因為你有相關的處罰或沒收相關的這個保證金或相關的這個那對於這個包商他才會有他才會有這樣的一個約束力這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的這個部分把他位階提升或許會比較好"},{"start":607.375,"end":634.569,"text":"好 我覺得署長今天這個回答非常的具體啊可以當一回事來處理啦就是說因為這個道路假修復品質不佳的狀況其實到處都是啊到處都是道路補丁啊 鋪得不好啊然後造成一大堆的爭議等等那現有的力道是不足夠的我剛剛其實有看到這個包含當初解凍的理由都在講嘛就是說有關於一些道路的品質啊路夠不夠平啊 修復的品質好不好等等 其實都是它其實也可以被列為補助的參考我覺得這種東西啊不過我跟委員報告一下因為我們當時"},{"start":636.03,"end":664.844,"text":"尤其提升道路品質我們要看的是那一種長期年久失修的年久失修那一個才是因為我們是有整段道路的PCI的這個指數在做一個你既有的標準這我理解因為我看你的書面回覆其實寫得很清楚也就是說其實品質越不好其實表示跟地方政府財務等等他更需要中央的支持這一點我完全同意但我希望未來你把假修復的品質我只是針對假修復這件事情也就是說我有開挖我有請其他人等等然後假修復修得很爛的"},{"start":665.504,"end":687.322,"text":"你要有一些處罰的機制它可以是你中央召集各個縣市政府來作為譬如說位階的提升啊或者是標準的修正或者是你可以善用你補助的這個額度把它納入一定的KPI或者是核定的辦法我覺得這是可以思考的方向這種東西不分縣市的因為這種東西一定要做好跟大家的生活品質有關啦好不好 是不是針對這一部分我們一樣來研究一下 我說明一下好了就是說"},{"start":689.404,"end":705.227,"text":"大概以中央來講大概第一個就是說我們是可以針對相關的國營事業就管線單位我們大概年度都有做一些檢討那這個部分是我們可以來做但是因為相關的這一個養護的一個標準跟這個條例的訂定"},{"start":706.038,"end":735.602,"text":"那這個我們是來督促地方政府來訂定這並不是說中央自己單獨立法我理解 我的意思是說你可以召集縣市政府來商量然後大家標準 也有標準因為其實省紀部他當時的報告當然以我們來講啦以我們來講我們會覺得大概對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平非六都的條件本來就差那所以即使我做了一些補助他也不可能快速的提升當然不能以這樣的理由 又說他的交通條件不好"},{"start":736.141,"end":765.129,"text":"那表示執行不佳其實這有點雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題這個其實我覺得所以我才講重點只有假修復嘛因為假修復大家都有所以我才會更為報導說這就是為什麼您當時在提這一件事情說要來提這個專案報告我們也會覺得怪怪的但是其實我想都是尊重在否則以我們來講我們會覺得原來的這個內容就寫得很奇怪原來的內容就是寫得很奇怪的東西這個提案的內容都會可受公平這個是大家都已經知道的事情這一段時間了好 等一下但是"},{"start":765.95,"end":778.549,"text":"該走的程序都走而且其實喔藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討我覺得對大家來講也不是一件壞事部長要補充說明嗎您剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分那個其實有一些縣市地方政府他們會透過議會來制定這個單行條例"},{"start":782.134,"end":801.216,"text":"這種單行法規它的約束力才會比較強沒錯譬如說以我們以前高雄市在處理的時候就是你新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了不到一個月就開始要有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓那其實你只要道路的品質有一條開始破壞掉其他就完全破壞掉"},{"start":801.856,"end":820.665,"text":"那所以透過養護的這個單位呢它在地方縣市政府的執行率比較強其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府尤其是非六都的部分它如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制可以開挖的單位呢它一定在一定的法定時間或一定的品質的狀況之下才能夠確保否則中央如果幫忙他們的話只會像剛剛署長所說的因為你本來就不好了"},{"start":826.988,"end":850.755,"text":"然後就要開挖越多然後修復越多那就變成是一個惡性循環那道路的品質就不好就會被審計部然後有告訴我們說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點所以其實這是中央跟地方政委要一起努力的好 謝謝部長的補充說明其實我的概念也是這樣就是說你有什麼樣的方式可以召集可以鼓勵嘛比如說我願意做單行法規然後加強管束的我就覺得補助的時候優先性高一點我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事"},{"start":851.095,"end":878.201,"text":"當然我會給你空間因為我們想把問題點出來我一定要給你行政機關一點時間去溝通去嘗試然後我們再來檢視成效啦好但這個假修復的問題如果可以在這個我們這次政府的任內有一個很好的升級對於地方政府中央怎麼都會加分啊所以今天本期提兩個第一個是未來的道路圈的補助希望多增加跨越的部分第二個針對道路假修復的品質要求希望我們的政府大家中央跟地方都要再更積極一點希望我們國務署也好內政部也好把這次當一回事來辦好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":882.924,"end":883.645,"text":"謝謝劉學廷的質詢 謝謝劉部長 謝謝吳署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時47分）謝謝主席。有請內政部跟國土署。"],["主席：請內政部長，還有國土署吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。今天的質詢當然跟解凍有一定的關係，但其實每一個題目，凍結都是監督的延伸，所以我們希望透過這樣的報告來做一下政策對話。今天本席的質詢有兩個重點，第一個，我們探討一下未來生活圈道路補助的一些用法，以及未來因應財劃法上路之後要不要做一些檢討，我們可以先進行一些政策討論。第二，我們要針對道路品質的部分跟內政部請教一下相關的一些規範。","第一個，就本席的了解，大部分的生活圈道路系統建設計畫大概基本上都是補助各個縣市政府、各個地方政府，針對轄內的市區道路做打通、新闢或者是整修等等的一些相關計畫，當然就是希望改善各個城市內部交通路網的完整性。這樣的方向其實本席都認同，我剛剛聽了國土署吳欣修署長的這些說明，其實蠻清楚的，這些申請當然都非常踴躍，從中央政府的角度來看，只有很困擾，因為餅不夠大，大家都希望可以爭取補助，所以執行率也非常好，這一點本席都非常肯定。不過本席要藉這樣一個機會來進行一些討論，未來財劃法要上路，換言之，一定會排擠到中央的預算，也一定涉及到事權的調整，這本席充分的理解，我希望跟內政部來做一下討論，國土署現在有很多的道路補助計畫其實是直接下給地方政府，但是財劃法修正之後，各個地方政府的經費是增加的，增加之後，當然中央沒有辦法像過去一樣有這麼好的預算規模可以全部來做補助，所以我今天要討論的是事權調整的部分。","我現在要請教部長、署長的地方是，現在除了這個生活圈的道路交通建設計畫是針對各個縣市內部的道路以外，針對跨域的道路中央政府有沒有特別的想法？我舉一個例子，比如說，龜山有一個大家非常期待的建設就是我們龜山的大坪頂地區，壽山路就是從龜山的坪頂地區要銜接新北的新莊地區，這其實是一條上班族每天通勤都會塞車的道路。以前因為龜山的地勢，還有山路的關係，所以很狹窄，上下班的時候難免塞車，加上這邊的A7重劃區，很多的鄉親搬進來，當然都希望交通可以再改善。這件事情桃園市政府跟新北市政府其實有做過一些協商，可是問題來了，從桃園的角度，很多人要來長庚醫院、華亞科上班，這邊的住戶也變多了；可是從新北的角度就不見得有幫助，對新北的交通需求就沒有很大。這種跨縣市的道路建設就變成常常有這種狀況，有一個很想做、有一個不太想做，如果兩邊沒有達成共識，其實工程就呈現延宕的狀態。像現在桃園市政府其實有一個概念，就是進行拓寬，然後進行環形高架，這當然就是一個大建設，但請問這樣的一個建設，除了兩地縣市政府要自己達成共識之外，中央有沒有角色？"],["吳署長欣修：報告一下，過去在執行跨縣市的時候，如果同屬生活圈的部分大概一定都會有跨部會的協調，尤其像這種跨縣市的，很可能都會涉及到內政部跟交通部之間也要做跨部會的協調才有辦法，這是第一個。第二個，這也涉及到經費分配的原則，未來如果加上財劃法這樣的方式，很可能在以後，第一個是事權，第二個是財劃法，整個經費分配更需要跨縣市跟跨部會來做整理，像這個案子應該也是其中一個會遇到的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天提的概念是這樣，你說現行生活圈是五年補助兩百多億，每年數十億這樣的經費，你們都是補助各縣市政府在縣市內的、城市內的道路，如果財劃法上路，你們要勻一部分出去撥給地方政府，所以這個東西一定會降下來，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但也不會全部歸零嘛！我想應該不至於會全部歸零，中央還是會有一部分可以調度的經費。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席現在就建議，如果未來財劃法上路之後，地方縣市政府自己城市內部的經費變多了，那麼城市內部的道路當然自己要負責的比例就更高。相對來講，中央的餅雖然變小了，我希望中央可以調整一下政策邏輯，也就是說，中央可以調度的資源就要以跨域的建設為主，像這樣比如說桃園想做，新北比較沒有那麼想的，由中央來多幫忙，是不是就可以降低這件事情達成的門檻？我覺得中央如果資源變小，以這樣子的分配來講，其實對於大家都是比較好的，也就是說，各縣市自己要處理的道路，各縣市要多擔負一點責任，但是跨域的，因為沒有辦法協調，可能會卡關，所以中央要來多幫忙，請問署長認不認同這樣的政策方向？"],["吳署長欣修：其實中央能做的大概是跨域的協調啦！我想經費的部分最後還是要看分配出來的結果，因為有時候縣市政府不太想做可能是地理條件的問題，不單純是經費的問題，而是地理條件的問題。像這一條壽山路，我們之前也有跟新北市政府討論過，他們認為在這個範圍內的執行上，如果還要再拓寬，以現有的地理條件相對困難度是很高的，所以他們的意願度大概比較低，所以需要比較多跨部會跟跨縣市的協調。如果未來要做這件事的話，我想這才是……","像我們之前協調和美大橋，就是從臺中到彰化，其實部會也有協調，縣市也有協調，所以不單純都是經費的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：地勢的部分之所以會變成很大的阻力，就是因為可能要上下山，或是你剛剛講的和美大橋，要跨越河流，它的經費是高的，所以對於縣市政府的壓力大。所以我才講，這種跨域的、不好處理的中央要多補助一點嘛！我覺得這樣子比較合理，也比較公平，至於各城市內部的，未來就由財劃法來處理，這是本席的一個政策建議。不只是這個壽山路的拓寬，比如說湖山街，從我們龜山的大兔坑地區銜接到鶯歌，其實也是同樣的道理，因為跨越了縣市的界線，沒辦法做。我想部長、署長也都了解，也不只是桃園，全國各地其實都有很多這樣跨域的道路，因為現在生活圈道路看起來比較沒有支援到跨域的部分，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：其實都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：也是有，但是相對來講，如果全部都要照顧的話，你一定是僧多粥少嘛！未來調整之後，我希望看到內政部跟國土署在政策上面稍微做一下思考，怎麼樣在跨域的建設上面加大補助的力道，讓這些東西可以落地，我想這是中央很好的成績，這是本席藉由今天的專案報告所提的第一個政策建議，希望部長跟署長稍微研擬一下，會後用書面來回復一下可行性，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。第二個本席要關注的是道路品質的部分，因為你們這裡面大概提了三件事情，其中有一段是有關道路品質的部分。很多人都講，路平明明就是一個很基本的東西，為什麼幾十年下來大家都執政過，中央、地方也都換過，怎麼還是搞不定呢？我希望花一點時間來請教一下內政部，關於道路品質的問題，現在很多時候都講說我們都有編列重新刨鋪的預算，在重新刨鋪的時候也都會把品質做好，這個我倒覺得問題比較小，但只有一個問題是不可能全臺灣的道路都重新刨鋪嘛！一定會有中間的過渡期，加上管線開挖等等，所以真正會造成各地路不平的問題其實都是因為有管線工程，在等待重新刨鋪過程中的假修復，也就是施工單位先進行修復的狀況。問題來了，假修復就會出事啊！比如說這一條文化一路，變成越野賽道，一邊隆起來、一邊凹下去，其實非常危險，那當然就是台電的修復品質不好嘛！我想請問的是，如果假修復的品質不好，現在除了各縣市政府的裁罰，就像桃園養工處開了一張罰單，除了這種不痛不癢的裁罰之外，針對假修復的品質，中央有沒有一套完整的規範？針對沒有辦法做到的，有沒有一些懲罰機制？是不是可以請內政部或國土署來做一下說明？"],["吳署長欣修：說明一下，因為所謂的道路管挖、修補，或者是相關的建案要接管，必須要挖路再鋪，這屬於養護的部分，其實各縣市都有訂定相關刨鋪的處理機制，但是因為它不屬於條例、不屬於法令，所以大概都是用注意事項，或者是在復原的部分准不准許，也就是驗收，這部分第一個最常出現的問題大概就是回填品質不佳，這是第一個大問題，回填品質不佳往往就是回填的級配料品質不好，或者是回填的時候水泥灌漿的部分沒有做好。但是關鍵是在於整個道路養護的部分本來就是地方權責，所以第二個，我們也是希望地方政府能夠把它提升到類似自治條例的標準，這樣才有處罰的依據，否則以我們目前知道的，大多數是沒有所謂的處罰，因為有相關的處罰或沒收相關的保證金，對於包商才會有一個約束力。這是我們後續能夠要求地方政府來進行的部分，把它位階提升或許會比較好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得署長今天回答非常的具體，可以當一回事來處理，因為道路假修復品質不佳的狀況到處都是，道路補丁、鋪得不好，造成一大堆的爭議等等，現有的力道是不足夠的，我剛剛其實有看到包含當初解凍理由都在講，有關於一些道路品質，路夠不夠平、修復品質好不好等等，其實也可以被列為補助的參考，我覺得這種東西……"],["吳署長欣修：不過我跟委員報告一下，尤其是提升道路品質部分，我們看的是長期年久失修……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，年久失修的。"],["吳署長欣修：年久失修才是，因為我們是有診斷道路PCI指數在做確認。"],["牛委員煦庭：你既有的標準，這我理解，因為我看到你的書面回復寫得很清楚，也就是說其實品質越不好，表示可能地方政府的財務等等更需要中央的支持……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一點本席完全同意，但我希望未來把假修復的品質，我只針對假修復這件事情，也就是說我有開挖等等，假如他修得很爛的，你要有一些處罰的機制，可以是中央召集各個縣市政府來做，比如位階的提升、標準的修正或者是善用補助的額度，把它納入一定的KPI或核定的辦法，我覺得這是可以思考的方向，這種東西不分縣市的，因為這種東西一定要做好，跟大家的生活品質有關。是不是針對這個部分，我們一樣來研究一下？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下好了，以中央來講，第一個，我們是可以針對相關國營事業，就是管線單位，我們大概年度都有做一些檢討，這個部分我們可以來做，但是相關養護的標準跟條例的訂定，這個我們是督促地方政府來訂定，並不是中央自己單獨立法，因為……"],["牛委員煦庭：我理解，我的意思是你可以召集縣市政府來商量，大家有好的標準……"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個部分再說明一下，以我們來講，其實審計部當時的報告，我們會覺得對一些非六都的縣市是相對不公平，因為非六都的條件本來就差。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：所以即使我做了一些補助，它也不可能快速的提升。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯、沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：當然也不能以這樣的理由，說它的交通條件不好，就表示執行不佳，這有點雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，其實我覺得……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以我才講重點只有假修復，因為假修復大家都有一些不好……"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我才跟委員報告說這就是為什麼你當時在提這個專案報告時，我們也會覺得怪怪的，但是我想都是尊重，否則以我們來講，會覺得原來的內容就寫得很奇怪。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個提案的內容都可受公評，這是大家在這一段時間都已經知道的事情，但是該走的程序都有走，而且藉由這樣的東西來做政策研討，對大家來講也不是一件壞事。部長要補充說明嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，您剛剛提到有關道路品質修復不佳的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：其實有一些縣市地方政府會透過議會來制定這個單行法規……"],["牛委員煦庭：自治條例，對。"],["劉部長世芳：這種單行法規的約束力才會比較強。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：譬如以前高雄市在處理的時候，新的道路有的時候已經鋪好了……"],["牛委員煦庭：你有禁挖，對。"],["劉部長世芳：但不到一個月就開始有人要裝電線、水管或者旁邊有新蓋的大樓，其實只要有一條道路的品質開始被破壞，其他的就完全破壞掉。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：所以透過養護的單位，它在地方縣市政府的執行會比較強，其實我們會鼓勵每個縣市地方政府，尤其是非六都的部分，如果能夠有這樣的單行法規來強制開挖單位要在一定的法定時間或一定品質的狀況之下才能夠確保，否則中央如果幫忙他們的話，只會像剛剛署長所說的，因為本來就不好了，結果開挖越多、修復越多，變成是一個惡性循環，導致道路的品質不好，就會被審計部說哪個地方有很多不同的缺點，所以這是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長的補充說明，其實我的概念也是這樣，你用什麼樣的方式可以召集、可以鼓勵，比如我願意做單行法規並加強管束，就可以在補助的時候優先性高一點，我覺得這就是中央可以處理的事，當然我會給你空間，因為我們想把問題點出來，一定要給行政機關一點時間去溝通、去嘗試，然後我們再來檢視成效。但有關假修復的問題，如果可以在這屆政府的任內有一個很好的升級，對於地方政府、中央政府都會加分，所以今天本席提兩個：第一個，針對未來生活圈道路的補助，希望多增加跨域的部分；第二個，針對道路假修復的品質要求，希望我們的政府──中央跟地方，大家都要再更積極一點，不管是國土署也好、內政部也好，把這當一回事來辦，好嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，謝謝劉部長、謝謝吳署長。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：好，下一位我們請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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競速來解凍但中央卻沒有看到任何一個部會送解凍報告甚至我們有媒體揭露說有些部會官員早就已經準備好報告但是長官還沒有下令 手掌受到壓力 不敢批核我想這明顯就是透過這個資訊影響到我們公務人員"},{"start":65.834,"end":84.863,"text":"我想中央部會不提報告就算了我們許多部會的首長甚至還在民進黨大罷免的場合裡面大肆的造謠我想民眾的眼睛是血亮的部會裡不趕快送解凍報告一方面又說凍結預算的假消息我想這政府這樣子對整個行政效益是有問題會造成社會動盪"},{"start":89.349,"end":117.31,"text":"立法院提出預算的凍結案這行之多年這就是因為發現中央政府在編列預算跟執行預算上有不周全的地方甚至監察院跟審計部也會提出來檢討所以才要求中央部會你要提出報告我們告訴全國人民我們的錢要怎麼花要怎麼改進而不是手裡拿著人民的納稅錢你愛怎麼花就怎麼花本席這邊要提供幾個客觀的數據我希望中央政府不要再做巨嬰了"},{"start":118.499,"end":131.772,"text":"民國95年陳水扁總統執政的時候總預算的凍結比例高達13.24%那陳水扁總統怎麼做他就想盡辦法趕快跟我們立法院的在黨來做理性的溝通盡速來解決預算的凍結那"},{"start":134.714,"end":154.575,"text":"在推動我們的政務馬英九政府之後102年的中央總預算被凍結是達到了10.06%馬政府依然一切都正常運作為什麼到了今天賴清德總統的時期我們預算被凍結4.06%中央政府說我們什麼都自愛難行我想這前後比較國人只有公平"},{"start":155.296,"end":174.528,"text":"那今天內政委員會邀請內政部跟交通部來進行市區道路品質改善計畫執行的效益跟檢討專題報告我主要就是針對國土署生活圈道路交通系統的建設計畫這個業務費的預算的凍結條件那本期這邊要先肯定我們內政委員會的劉許廷召委我們比內政部還要進展"},{"start":175.649,"end":204.608,"text":"還有我們內政委員我相信態度都一致就希望能夠趕快來報告我們盡快的來審議讓許多預算可以盡速來解凍執行我想部長你照理應該要請內政部各所屬機關趕快來準備解凍的報告我希望內政部之後能夠拿出更激情的作為態度那我們今天回到今天的主題就當初為什麼會有這一項預算的解凍案就是因為國土署沒有好好的監督地方政府執行社區的道路養護"},{"start":205.629,"end":234.247,"text":"我們明明知道有些地方政府執行不佳就不斷的給他預算給他經費造成政府部門的這個效率不彰甚至是惡性循環那更重要的這個執行效率不佳不是立法院說的這是審計部跟監察院的報告裡面都明明白白的指出有許多需要檢討的地方因此這個預算的凍結案是基於非常客觀的事實我希望內政部能夠盡快的檢討以提出改善的方案首先我們看到審計部在"},{"start":234.907,"end":239.705,"text":"中央對地方政府補助管考及執行情形的報告中指出"},{"start":240.695,"end":266.515,"text":"內政部國土管理署補助地方政府辦理提升道路品質計畫但是補助計畫的審核及修正作業未曾周延完工後效益指標未達原定目標獲得交通補助經費是地方政府連續多年考評成績不佳交通施工品質及完成後的效益欠佳影響整體計畫目標至達成"},{"start":268.737,"end":292.325,"text":"必須檢討改善這是審計部說的那審計部更舉了許多的例子像是你沒有落實審查或審查作業未經嚴謹導致部分的補助計劃核定之後地方機關的提報是做項目卻不是我們補助的項目的範圍如果這樣都可以補助代表我們中央的省的非常的善慢那還有對於我們部分的地方機關填報補助計劃"},{"start":295.25,"end":304.401,"text":"他完工之後的效益指標明明就沒有達到預期的目標中央也沒有督促檢討原因就給予他審核同意結案"},{"start":306.083,"end":326.741,"text":"這個對於連續多年數區道路的養護品質考核不佳的地方機關你有沒有作為之後我們來申請補助計畫的審核標準甚至還給予更多的經費補助我想請問這樣子如果有效的督促我們地方機關來改善那而且地方機關考核成績不佳的原因主要是因為交通"},{"start":327.742,"end":345.263,"text":"工程的施工品質還有完成後效益有待改善等等這個部分中央也沒有督促針對問題的正確點做通盤的檢討我想這樣要怎麼樣來發揮補助的成效我想每一分的預算都是人民的納稅錢這個代表中央也要好好"},{"start":346.364,"end":367.262,"text":"來督促這件事因為你沒有做好這件事代表你們沒有好好的善用人民的納稅錢我想不只如此去年12月10號監察院的林聖峰等監委又提出報告他發現國土組的生活區的道路計有補助計劃他這個計劃主要是以建設改善市區道路為主人行空間改善為輔"},{"start":369.322,"end":392.218,"text":"這個對於我們人行道路設計的改善的優先順序缺乏通盤的這個整體性的規劃機制任由各縣市自行來提補住案希望國土署能夠來改善這個是我們經常願提出的我想因此今天的預算解凍案我就希望內政部國土署及相關部會可以針對這些缺失好好的來審視自己"},{"start":392.938,"end":410.026,"text":"跟國人報告我們要怎麼改進而不是說自己做得有多好我本席絕對支持市區大陸品質改善以及友善人行環境的提升那對於報告中提出檢討的事項也希望內政部能夠盡快來做到要針對審計部跟檢察院的意見盡速來改善"},{"start":410.566,"end":425.112,"text":"我想今天的專案報告是一個好的開始我們再次呼籲我們劉部長好好的負起責任請內政部所屬機關盡快的來解凍報告我們盡速審議 盡速的來執行那以上本期的資訊到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝黃建斌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":461,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時32分）謝謝主席。主席，我們有請內政部劉部長及國土署的吳署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好！"],["黃委員建賓：部長早！部長，大家都知道114年的中央政府總預算案在今年的1月21日就已經三讀通過，賴清德總統則是選擇在法定期限的最後時間，也就是3月21日壓線公布，中間隔了整整2個月，然而許多部會卻一直不斷的公開說總預算被凍結的金額有多少，會造成許多政策窒礙難行。結果我們現在看到的情況是明明有許多預算提出解凍報告就可以儘速來解凍，但卻沒有看到中央任何一個部會送解凍報告，甚至有媒體揭露，有些部會官員透露早就已經準備好報告，但是長官還沒有下令，首長受到壓力，不敢批核，我想這明顯就是透過政治去影響到公務人員。中央部會不提報告就算了，許多部會的首長甚至還在民進黨大罷免的場合裡面大肆造謠，我想民眾的眼睛是雪亮的，部會不趕快送解凍報告，一方面又說凍結預算的假消息，政府這樣對整個行政效率會有問題，而且會造成社會動盪。","立法院提出預算的凍結案行之多年，就是因為發現中央政府在編列預算及執行預算上有不周全的地方，甚至監察院與審計部也都提出來檢討，所以才要求中央部會要提出報告。我們要告訴全國人民，我們的錢要怎麼花、要怎麼改進，而不是手裡拿著人民的納稅錢，愛怎麼花就怎麼花，所以本席要提供幾個客觀的數據，希望中央政府不要再做巨嬰了。","民國95年陳水扁總統執政的時候，中央政府總預算的凍結比例高達13.24%，陳水扁總統怎麼做？他就想盡辦法趕快跟立法院的在野黨做理性的溝通，儘速解決預算的凍結，來推動我們的政務。馬英九政府的時候，102年的中央政府總預算被凍結比例是達到10.06%，馬政府依然一切都正常運作。為什麼到了今天賴清德總統的時期，預算被凍結4.06%，中央政府說什麼都窒礙難行？我想這個前後比較國人自有公評。","今天內政委員會邀請內政部及交通部來進行「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」的專題報告，主要就是針對國土署「生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫」這個業務費預算的凍結條件。本席在這邊要先肯定內政委員會的牛煦庭召委比內政部還要盡責，還有內政委員會的委員，我相信態度都一致，就是希望能夠趕快來報告，我們儘快的來審議，讓許多預算可以儘速來解凍、執行。部長，你照理應該要請內政部各所屬機關趕快來準備解凍的報告，我希望內政部之後能夠拿出更積極作為的態度。","我們回到今天的主題，當初為什麼會有這一項預算的凍結案？就是因為國土署沒有好好的監督地方政府執行市區的道路養護，我們明明知道有些地方政府執行不佳，還不斷的給它預算、給它經費，造成政府部門的效益不彰，甚至是惡性循環，更重要的，這個執行效率不佳不是立法院說的，審計部與監察院的報告裡面都明明白白的指出有許多需要檢討的地方，因此這個預算的凍結案是基於非常客觀的事實，我希望內政部能夠儘快的檢討，以提出改善的方案。","首先，我們看到審計部在中央對地方政府補助之管考及執行情形的報告中指出，內政部國土管理署補助地方政府辦理提升道路品質計畫，但是補助計畫的審核及修正作業未臻周延、完工後效益指標未達原訂目標、獲得較多補助經費之地方政府仍連續多年考評成績不佳、交通工程施工品質及完成後效益欠佳等，影響整體計畫目標之達成，必須檢討改善。這是審計部說的。審計部更舉了許多的例子，像是沒有落實審查或審查作業未臻嚴謹，導致部分的補助計畫核定之後，地方機關提報施作的項目卻不是我們補助的項目範圍，如果這樣都能補助，代表中央的審核非常的散漫；還有對於部分地方機關填報補助計畫的完工後效益指標明明就沒有達到預期的目標，中央也沒有督促檢討原因，就給予審核同意結案；對於連續多年市區道路養護品質考核成績不佳的地方機關，也沒有作為之後它來申請補助計畫的審核標準，甚至還給予更多經費來補助，請問這樣如何有效督促地方機關來改善？而且地方機關考核成績不佳原因主要是交通工程的施工品質，還有完成後效益有待改善等，這個部分中央也沒有督促他們針對問題的癥結點做通盤的檢討，這樣要怎麼樣來發揮補助的成效？我想每一分預算都是人民的納稅錢，代表中央也要好好來督促這件事，因為你們沒有做好這件事，代表你們沒有好好善用人民的納稅錢。","不只如此，去年12月10日監察院林盛豐等監委也有提出報告，他發現國土署的生活圈道路既有補助計畫主要是以建設改善市區道路為主，人行空間改善為輔，對於人行道之設置及改善優先順序，缺乏通盤的整體性規劃機制，任由各縣市自行提補助案，希望國土署能夠改善。這個是監察院提出的。","因此今天的預算解凍案，我們希望內政部國土署及相關部會可以針對這些缺失好好的來審視自己，跟國人報告我們要怎麼改進，而不是說自己做得有多好。本席絕對支持市區道路品質改善，以及友善人行環境的提升，對於報告中提出檢討的事項，也希望內政部能夠儘快做到，針對審計部與監察院的意見，也要儘速改善。今天的專案報告是一個好的開始，我們再次呼籲劉部長好好的負起責任，請內政部所屬機關儘快的提出解凍報告，我們儘速審議，儘速來執行。以上，本席的質詢到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員。我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：現在繼續開會。","接下來請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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在開始之前我們剛剛主席剛好在我上台之前講了這一段這個我也是想表示一下這個主席可能本身沒有提這個相關主席本身應該沒有提這一案的這個這一幕的預算案嘛"},{"start":37.757,"end":52.352,"text":"可是事實上我們今天為什麼要花這麼多的時間在處理這一幕這一個專案報告甚至是討論是不是要解凍呢老實講喔就我們手上可以看到嘛就是這樣子的一個案子啊這個案子喔是"},{"start":55.734,"end":62.876,"text":"這個國土署的第七款第二項第七目的第三在生活圈道路交通系統建設計劃跨號市區道路也就是今天的會議通知單上面發的這個所謂解凍案的這個部分名稱可是啊這個案子我們怎麼看左看右看這個案子沒有在委員會討論過啊"},{"start":76.9,"end":81.182,"text":"這個案子是用黨團的名義直接送交到院會去啪一個就出現了然後就凍結了預算然後我們就必須今天內政委員會又要召開一個專案報告來討論是不是要解凍這一個預算"},{"start":94.927,"end":117.216,"text":"好 那要解凍預算對 是要經過這些詢問沒有錯所以主席說程序上我們是加速了我覺得也是辛苦主席了因為這真的不是主席的意思不是主席個人提出的這是別的黨團提出的我想主席也是很委屈啊可是我們再細看這個黨團你說他如果提的內容很有道理那我們也就認了"},{"start":117.816,"end":124.18,"text":"表示內政委員會都不夠專業沒有提出他的案子沒有像他想的這麼周延所以我們就花時間在內政委員會來討論這個案子可是我們看看這個案子你看前面在講的說他是要來討論這一幕生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫那下面是什麼他下面是說因為內政不好在提升道路品質計畫這個項目做得不好所以第三段"},{"start":146.992,"end":152.437,"text":"原動結該預算這兩個計畫好像不太一樣部長我想請問你一下您剛剛在部長你提出的今天的這一份專案報告裡面第一題就破題很清楚的告訴大家本業務業管道路建設相關議題有什麼有哪三項部長可以請你簡單說你貴部"},{"start":173.634,"end":198.305,"text":"業管道路建設相關議題有哪三項各自代表的事 重點是哪一些嗎是 我先跟委員報告一下只要簡答就好了在委員的書面報告裡面確實講得非常的清楚就是我們現在所要辦理的這個事項應該不是只有剛剛你所提到這個由這個台灣民眾黨所提的這個部分而且這些幾乎都是法定的預算"},{"start":199.125,"end":205.547,"text":"是啊你這邊就很清楚的寫嘛第一大段就寫了本部的夜館道路建設相關議題有生活圈道路交通系統建設這個主要是在打通打通我們道路的瓶頸耶然後在造橋鋪路這樣的部分那它可能有市區的部分沒有錯但是打通瓶頸造橋鋪路好第二個呢我們有永續提升人行安全計畫第三個我們提升道路品質計畫"},{"start":226.733,"end":231.237,"text":"結果剛剛的這份提案是在講提升道路品質提案做得不好所以我來凍結這個我們打通瓶頸的道路交通系統計畫請問這到底是哪一門子的提案我們為什麼花時間在處理這種提案我真的是不太理解啦好啦"},{"start":245.407,"end":257.755,"text":"所以我先用這個運算案回應一下剛剛主席這樣說我覺得主席真的辛苦啦但是這個部分剛剛第一位質詢的委員他看起來也對部會的報告相當不滿意所以到時候"},{"start":262.018,"end":289.916,"text":"預算到底要不要解凍啊因為他剛剛不滿意啊那這樣結論到底是什麼到底到時候如果院會交下來了以後到底是要解還是不要解所以我想表示的是我們當然想解凍啊可是這整個問題就是今天的立法院完全亂的套啦完全亂的套啦你提預算審查的這個案子可以不在委員會直接提出不在委員會提出直接到院會去提提的案子又是叫A和B倒來倒去不知道到底哪裡去好"},{"start":291.497,"end":313.03,"text":"然後最後現在來質詢的速度 院會根本還沒有交辦下來我們今天到底在處理什麼亂了套 一切都亂了套好 所以我要從我的PPT這一頁開始接起來來啦 公務預算亂山亂洞 錢在預算根本不管因為 大家也覺得很好笑對不對我也覺得蠻好笑的 因為我也不曉得要怎麼接了"},{"start":314.594,"end":337.937,"text":"我要來看看 這個我們公務預算亂扇亂動公務預算 來 部長我自己看到這一次國土署的這個預算被煽動應該是有這四項吧這四項都是跟民生計畫相關的目前可以看得到煽動金額大概是有這些狀況這沒有錯嘛 對不對生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫汐止的白袍無色宅 租屋補貼業務費"},{"start":339.458,"end":366.858,"text":"這四項沒有問題吧對不對都是有受到影響的很清楚嘛來我想請問新北受到影響有多少有統計嗎新北現在案件有多少因為新北的部分大致上是在大概一個白跑虎大概就是最明確啦因為白跑虎的部分是1.241啦但事實上他還會涉及到更大因為後續的"},{"start":367.932,"end":395.357,"text":"周邊的這個建設我們也通知新北市政府都暫停了是啊 秀宅都暫停了嘛那我最關心的我去年剛剛爭取到這個林口巴黎的105市道的這個部分是不是有受到影響因為我看到它也是在設備及投資這個也是在生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫裡面嘛對不對報告大概現在大概是因為105是剛開始的計畫對所以它還比較沒有用到錢但是現在的A3"},{"start":396.73,"end":404.075,"text":"現在A3就是他接過去的那一段就從林口市區接到105的那一段A3計畫道路的新闢工程就會受到影響對那已經直接受到影響直接受到影響影響什麼樣影響是不開工因為你剛剛有說我們工程不是去買東西我今天10個本來預算10個然後現在預算少一點我就買5個工程是整個就不能開標了"},{"start":417.725,"end":438.321,"text":"不是我們是要求他在進度上我們要控管就是他沒有辦法讓他執行太快因為我們錢付不出來所以本來可以執行速度會減慢是第二個就是像土城那個鼎福安居旁邊的那一個12米道路12米道路也是增加了一個喔那這樣的那我的櫻桃安居一定也會受到影響囉對櫻桃安居也受到影響"},{"start":439.38,"end":463.934,"text":"好喔那這個什麼時候可以這都是114年本來預計要的那我們現在都是給先執行中的所以可以看到嘛我們今天這樣子煽動預算下來最後受災的都是我們的民生計畫啊那我就不曉得現在這個解凍案到底要怎麼排怎麼速度是如何因為院會什麼時候要交下來根本不知道啊院會會說那是行政院沒有送出來啊"},{"start":464.834,"end":489.537,"text":"可是問題是你現在這個統三三成這個樣子數字到底要怎麼排根本現在也沒有人算得出來啊所以我還是再說一句一切都亂了套一切都亂了套這就是現在立法院的狀況啦但我們還是很希望如果內政部這邊可以多給院會給行政院多一點意見看怎麼配合的話當然我們是希望預算可以早一點解凍"},{"start":490.458,"end":502.285,"text":"因為該有的程序還是要有然後可以讓整個工程整個甚至國家恢復秩序我是覺得這樣是比較好啦好那最後呢那個謝謝部長跟署長我想請問一下交通部交通部的代表"},{"start":505.714,"end":523.607,"text":"公路局副局長林副局長我在去年4月的時候有跟其他委員共同舉辦了道路交通工程改善公聽會我在公聽會上的時候就有講出我覺得要改善交通環境其實有很大的重點就是我們可以從工程面直接來改善"},{"start":524.728,"end":546.449,"text":"對 同意嘛 沒有問題嘛 對不對剛剛其實劉部長也是這樣說嘛從工程面直接來改善交通環境所以我要求交通部要針對這個十年來喔只有修正過一次的交通工程規範來進行修正當時交通部在公定會上答應我兩個月要提出來啊從去年四月兩個月就是去年六月啊現在是"},{"start":547.41,"end":559.914,"text":"又是四月了請問進度整體的交通工程的指引這個都已經發佈而且我們整個規劃都已經發佈在實施了已經發佈在實施了對那你為什麼跟委員辦公室溝通這麼差對啊你確定是已經修正實施你修正了哪一些國土三類五號已經正式發佈了"},{"start":570.461,"end":581.485,"text":"那規範的部分在持續還是有的部分有的急迫了我們先有檢討那規範有些部分我們持續也都在檢討所以到底是修正完了沒有你修正了哪一些啊報告委員我們現在修正的大概有兩個規範第一個是交通工程規範第二是公路路線設計規範那這個我們有是啊這都是公聽會當時要求的那我們現在都逐步逐步就是配就是跟著"},{"start":598.325,"end":605.469,"text":"有一些規範因為跟內政部國度署稍微有一點差異現在我們要把它融合在一起所以我們就相關的我覺得你們這樣的態度難怪當時會沒有辦法讓各界都接受因為連委員辦公室要表達的意見我也沒有參與到整整一年的狀況我這麼關心還開了公聽會結果你現在"},{"start":617.857,"end":617.877,"text":"謝謝蘇姨"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時21分）謝謝主席。我們請劉世芳劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。"],["劉部長世芳：是，蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，在開始之前，因為主席剛好在我上臺之前講了這一段，我也想表示一下意見，主席本身應該沒有提這一目的預算案，可是事實上我們今天為什麼要花這麼多的時間在處理這一目、這一個專案報告，甚至是討論是不是要解凍呢？老實講，我們手上可以看到的就是這樣一個案子啊！這個案子是國土署第7款第2項第7目03生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫（市區道路），也就是今天會議通知單上面發的這個所謂解凍案的名稱，可是這個案子我們怎麼看，左看右看，這個案子沒有在委員會討論過，這個案子是用黨團的名義，直接送交到院會去，啪！一個就出現了，然後就凍結了預算，再然後今天內政委員會就必須召開一個專案報告來討論是不是要解凍這一個預算，要解凍預算是要經過這些詢答沒有錯，所以主席說程序上我們是加速了，我覺得也是辛苦主席了，因為這真的不是主席的意思，也不是主席個人提出的，這是別的黨團提出的，我想主席也是很委屈，可是我們再細看這個黨團提案，如果提的內容很有道理，我們也就認了，表示內政委員會都不夠專業，沒有提出相關的案子，沒有像他想得這麼周延，所以我們就花時間在內政委員會來討論這個案子，可是我們看看這個案子，前面講的是要討論這一目──生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫，但是下面是什麼？下面是說因為內政部在提升道路品質計畫這個項目做得不好，所以第三段「爰凍結該預算」。這兩個計畫好像不太一樣，部長，我想請問你一下，剛剛部長提出的今天這一份專案報告裡面，第一題就破題，很清楚的告訴大家「本部業管道路建設相關議題」有哪三項。部長，可以請你簡單說明貴部業管道路建設相關議題有哪三項、各自代表的重點是哪一些嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我先跟委員報告一下……"],["蘇委員巧慧：只要簡答就好了。"],["劉部長世芳：在書面報告裡面，確實講得非常的清楚，就是我們現在所要辦理的事項應該不是只有剛剛你所提到由台灣民眾黨所提的這個部分，而且這些幾乎都是法定預算。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！你這邊就很清楚的寫嘛，第一大段就寫了：本部業管道路建設相關議題有「生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫」，這個主要是在打通我們道路的瓶頸，然後在造橋鋪路的部分，可能有市區的部分沒有錯；第二個，永續提升人行安全計畫；第三個，提升道路品質計畫。而剛剛的這份提案是在講提升道路品質計畫做得不好，所以凍結打通瓶頸的道路交通系統計畫的預算。請問這到底是哪一門子的提案？我們為什麼花時間在處理這種提案，我真的是不太理解。好啦，所以我先用這個預算案回應一下剛剛主席這樣說，我覺得主席真的辛苦啦，但是這個部分，剛剛第1位質詢的委員看起來也對部會的報告相當不滿意，所以到時候預算到底要不要解凍？因為他剛剛不滿意啊，這樣結論到底是什麼？到時候如果院會交下來了以後，到底是要解還是不要解？我想表示的是，我們當然想解凍，可是這整個問題就是今天的立法院完全亂了套，你提預算審查的案子可以不在委員會提出，直接到院會去提，提的案子又是這樣A和B湊來湊去，不知道湊到哪裡去。好，最後現在來質詢，院會根本還沒有交辦下來，我們今天到底在處理什麼？啊！亂了套，一切都亂了套。","好，所以我要從我的PPT這一頁開始接起，公務預算亂刪、亂凍，前瞻預算根本不管。大家也覺得很好笑，對不對？我也覺得滿好笑的，因為我也不曉得要怎麼接了。好，我要來看看公務預算亂刪、亂凍，部長，我自己看到這一次國土署的預算被刪凍，應該是有這四項吧？這四項都是跟民生計畫相關的，目前可以看得到刪凍金額大概是有這些狀況，沒有錯嘛，對不對？生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫、汐止的白匏湖社宅、租屋補貼、業務費，這四項沒有問題吧？都是有受到影響的，很清楚嘛。我想請問新北受到的影響有多少？有統計嗎？新北現在案件有多少？"],["吳署長欣修：報告，因為新北的部分，白匏湖大概就是最明確，因為白匏湖的部分是1.24億，但事實上它還會涉及到更大，因為後續周邊的建設，我們也通知新北市政府都暫停……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！社宅都暫停了嘛！我最關心的是我去年剛剛爭取到林口、八里105市道的這個部分，是不是也受到影響？因為我看到它也是在生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫裡面嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：報告，因為105市道是剛開始的計畫，所以它還比較沒有用到錢，但是現在的A3，就是它接過去的那一段，從林口市區接到105市道的那一段A3……"],["蘇委員巧慧：A3計畫道路的新闢工程就會受到影響？"],["吳署長欣修：對，那已經直接受到影響。"],["蘇委員巧慧：直接受到影響？什麼樣的影響，是不開工嗎？因為你剛剛有說我們的工程不是去買東西，本來預算十個，現在預算少一點，我就買五個，工程是整個就不能開標了。"],["吳署長欣修：不是，我們是要求它，在進度上我們要控管，沒有辦法讓它執行太快，因為我們錢付不出來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以本來可以執行，速度會減慢？"],["吳署長欣修：是，第二個，就是像土城頂福安居旁邊的12米道路，12米道路也是增加了一個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那這樣子，我的鶯陶安居一定也會受到影響囉？"],["吳署長欣修：對，鶯陶安居也受到影響。"],["蘇委員巧慧：唉！好喔，那麼這個什麼時候可以……"],["吳署長欣修：因為這都是114年本來預計要做的，我們現在都是先給執行中的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以可以看到嘛！我們今天這樣子刪凍預算下來，最後受災的都是我們的民生計畫，我就不曉得現在這個解凍案到底要怎麼排、速度是如何，因為院會什麼時候要交下來，根本不知道，院會說那是行政院沒有送出來，可是問題是現在統刪刪成這個樣子，數字到底要怎麼排，根本現在也沒有人算得出來啊！所以我還是再說一句：一切都亂了套。一切都亂了套，這就是現在立法院的狀況，但我們還是很希望如果內政部這邊可以多給行政院一點意見，看要怎麼配合，當然我們是希望預算可以早一點解凍，因為該有的程序還是要有，然後可以讓整個工程甚至國家恢復秩序，我是覺得這樣比較好啦。好，謝謝部長及署長。","最後，我想請問一下交通部代表公路局林副局長，我在去年4月的時候有跟其他委員共同舉辦了道路交通工程改善公聽會，我在公聽會上就有講，我覺得要改善交通環境其實有很大一個重點，就是我們可以從工程面直接來改善。這個同意，沒有問題，對不對？"],["林副局長聰利：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：剛剛其實劉部長也是這樣說，從工程面直接來改善交通環境，所以我要求交通部要針對這個十年來只有修正過一次的交通工程規範來進行修正……"],["林副局長聰利：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：當時交通部在公聽會上答應我2個月要提出來，從去年4月，2個月就是去年6月，現在又是4月了，請問進度？"],["林副局長聰利：報告，我們整體交通工程的指引都已經發布，而且整個規範都已經發布，在實施了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：已經發布，在實施了？"],["林副局長聰利：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你為什麼跟委員辦公室的溝通這麼差？對啊！你確定是已經修正實施，你修正了哪一些？"],["林副局長聰利：就指引的部分，我們3月5日已經正式發布了，規範的部分還在持續檢討，有的急迫的我們有先檢討，規範的部分我們持續也都在檢討當中。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以到底是修正完了沒有？你修正了哪一些？"],["黃簡任技正勝興：報告委員，我們現在修正的大概有二個規範，第一個是交通工程規範，第二個是公路路線設計規範，這個我們有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！這都是公聽會當時要求的啊！"],["黃簡任技正勝興：對，我們現在都逐步，有一些規範因為跟內政部國土署的稍微有一點差異，現在我們要把它融合在一起，所以我們就相關的在處理……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得你們這樣的態度，難怪當時會沒有辦法讓各界都接受！因為連委員辦公室要表達意見，我也沒有參與到，整整一年的狀況，我這麼關心，還開了公聽會，結果你現在不但沒有送資料來，連修改了什麼也沒有跟我們說明，也沒有讓我們表示意見，現在是什麼狀況？我要求你，現在你說你修正了，甚至公布了，請你把資料送辦公室來，我們來做討論。"],["林副局長聰利：是，好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員的質詢。","下一位請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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因為我們預算是優先給執行中的蘇長我不知道你收到公文了沒有這個行政院已經協調好國防部對於他的戰備然後對於他的這個攻堅計畫 待拆待限的計畫這個已經協調好了包含工程會已經協調好了那我也希望這一部分因為已經協調好的話國路署這邊可以一樣來做一個審查至於您剛剛最後提到還有裁劃法的部分因為裁劃法也是我們現在在等最後的結果"},{"start":278.92,"end":287.32,"text":"因為才化法的部分會對於這一個永續跟這一個生活圈的部分大概又是另外一個因為現在我們也在"},{"start":288.204,"end":314.532,"text":"最後在等院的最後的結果那到時候也會跟地方政府再召開看看是後續的執行案件的分配比率經費的這個分擔比率或者是說對於核定案件的內容是不是大家要重新做調整這個我們就會有相關的因應的做法再來做跟地方政府來做溝通我也會跟高雄市政府一起找內政部一起找國土署來做這些相關的討論"},{"start":315.802,"end":341.269,"text":"因為我們這個好不容易從劉世芳立委爭取到劉世芳部長到現在好不容易把最後的代差代鑒還有這個戰備都已經協調好了然後現在因為被國土署被內政部認為是新的計畫可能會有延宕我要請劉部長新台17啊劉部長有請"},{"start":345.976,"end":362.713,"text":"最後這個待才待見還有戰備這個都已經協調完了在這個行政院都已經協調完了那剛剛署長說這個可能會屬於新的計畫可能會延宕到新台時期接下來其實已經可以動工了但是算新的計畫可能沒有辦法動了"},{"start":364.274,"end":389.817,"text":"這個請問部長我們要怎麼接下來處理目前因為新台時期線確實是分成兩段南段這部分我上個禮拜已經卸掉好了如果是屬於一個已經執行當中的計畫然後是跨年度的話我們來看看原先的計畫可不可以容納進去但是如果是全新的話可能沒有這個行政院或者是立法院講好未來要煽動的這個預算數有沒有包括這一項那如果沒有包括的話我們才能執行"},{"start":390.339,"end":411.672,"text":"那簡單講 也跟部長說明一下現在的進度到這個中正 到介壽路這一段 其實算舊的計畫但是從介壽路再往南 我跟署長去會刊的這一段兩億多因為後面有牽涉到古蹟公園 遺蹟公園等等的這一段可能算新的計畫"},{"start":412.873,"end":422.509,"text":"但這兩億多新的計畫來講對台17來講就是最後就是差了那麼一公里差那麼一公里就到中華路沒辦法非常可惜齁"},{"start":423.628,"end":451.135,"text":"這牽涉到我們整個南門也要做一個改造把原本的六個路口的圓環要改造成兩個大路口也就是從成豐路接古山路從左營大路接中華路然後合併我們的這個新台時期我們希望這一個計畫也可以來創造包含這個財化法實施之後那財化法當然現在可能也在示現財化法如果實施到底高昌市政府這一步"},{"start":451.515,"end":468.771,"text":"這一條道路剛市政府可能原本分配的比例25他可能可能要變成70或多少這可能都要必須必須大家一起來協商有可能114年的這個總預算可能要跟財化法一起聯動才能夠處理這個委員所說的這一段這個道路要施工的這個計畫總經費的部分"},{"start":470.977,"end":487.508,"text":"謝謝部長這個我們還是要一起來努力啦雖然我已經接手你繼續在處理新台時期了現在遇到的狀況那部長也非常清楚那也希望部長可以指示國土署這邊新台時期要讓他如期在明年完工我們來努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時12分）請署長。"],["主席：署長，有請！"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：今天是專案報告，不是解凍！","今天這個專案報告的名稱是「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」，它是源自我們去年度在審預算的時候，台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的凍結案，凍結了這個計畫25%的預算。從剛才台灣民眾黨委員質疑其執行率98%，以及地方政府是否需要這些相關計畫的內容，可以看到台灣民眾黨到現在還是沒有任何解凍的想法。","剛剛主席講到，今天排這個議程是為了未來解凍方便，我跟你說啦，主席，今天這個市區道路品質的專案報告裡面，有生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫、提升人行安全計畫、提升道路品質計畫，有3個，你要不要做3次？這假的啊！跟解凍無關啊！今天就是大家好好地來檢討這些專案報告。","我想要請教署長，我從去年一直在爭取，包含我們內政委員會到高雄考察，我跟剛才的黃捷委員也一起考察了高雄車站旁邊的人行道專案計畫，那個時候我們剛通過行人交通安全設施條例，所以國土署也提出6年幾百億預算的計畫，但是剛剛也講得很清楚，這個已經被延宕了。","署長，我請教你，我們另外一次考察的翠華路跟德民路提升道路品質計畫會不會受到影響？對高雄市的整個預算來講，鋪設這兩條路的提升道路品質計畫需要2億的預算，它有沒有受到影響？第二個是新台17南段工程，我也帶你去看了介壽路的拓寬，這也是需要兩億多經費的生活圈道路，它有沒有受到影響？還有新莊一路用地改善計畫，新莊一路整個下水道計畫都已經送過來了，現在是不是要停下來？這個有沒有受到影響？署長，我們擔心的是我剛剛講的這些計畫有沒有因為預算統刪六百多億，再加上財劃法下放給地方之後而受到影響？"],["吳署長欣修：我簡單說明，前瞻的部分確實新的核定案都先停下來，就是原來在今年……"],["李委員柏毅：新台17南段就是新的核定案啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，這是第一個。第二個是生活圈道路的部分也很明確，就是優先給已經發包執行中的，那……"],["李委員柏毅：署長，新台17還沒有發包執行，因為後來國防部有提出另外的需求……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯、沒錯。"],["李委員柏毅：已經協調好了耶，結果又被影響了！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員柏毅：好不容易行政院已經協調好了耶！"],["吳署長欣修：對。所以有關生活圈道路，不管是新台17或者是後面講的道路拓寬案，這個部分都屬於新的案件，我們都是先審，但是沒有辦法核定，因為我們的預算是優先給執行中的。"],["李委員柏毅：署長，我不知道你收到公文了沒有？行政院已經協調好國防部和工程會，對於它的戰備道路、公建計畫和代拆代建計畫，都已經協調好了。因為已經協調好了，我也希望國土署可以一樣來做個審查。"],["吳署長欣修：至於委員最後提到還有財劃法的部分，這部分我們正在等最後的結果。因為財劃法對永續提升人行安全計畫和生活圈道路的部分又是另外一個影響，所以我們也在等行政院的最後結果，到時候會再跟地方政府召開會議，後續執行案件的經費分擔比例和核定案件的內容都要重新做調整，這部分我們會有相關的因應做法，屆時再跟地方政府溝通。"],["李委員柏毅：我也會跟高雄市政府一起找內政部和國土署來做相關的討論。因為我們從劉世芳立委爭取到劉世芳部長，好不容易把最後的代拆、代建還有戰備道路的部分都協調好，現在卻因為被國土署、內政部認為是新的計畫而可能會有延宕。","我要請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：報告部長，最後代拆、代建和戰備道路的部分都已經在行政院協調完了，剛剛署長說可能會因為它屬於新的計畫而使新台17受到延宕。其實本來已經可以動工了，但是因為算新的計畫而沒有辦法動工，請問部長，接下來我們要怎麼處理？"],["劉部長世芳：因為新台17線確實是分成2段……"],["李委員柏毅：南段這一部分我上個禮拜已經協調好了。"],["劉部長世芳：如果是已經在執行當中的計畫，而且是跨年度的話，我們來看看原先的計畫可不可以容納進去，但如果是全新的計畫，可能要行政院或者是立法院講好未來要刪、凍的預算數有沒有包括這一項，如果沒有包括的話，我們才能執行。"],["李委員柏毅：我也跟部長簡單說明一下現在的進度，到介壽路這一段其實算舊的計畫，但是從介壽路再往南，我跟署長去會勘的這一段需要兩億多，因為後面有牽涉到遺跡公園等等的，這一段可能算新的計畫。這兩億多的新計畫對台17來講，就是差了最後那麼一公里！差那麼一公里就到中華路，現在卻沒辦法到，實在非常可惜。這還牽涉到我們整個南門也要做一個改造，把原本有6個路口的圓環改造成2個大路口，也就是從城峰路接鼓山路，以及從左營大路接中華路，然後合併到新台17，我們希望這個計畫可以來創造……包含財劃法實施之後，當然財劃法現在可能也在釋憲，財劃法如果實施，這一條道路，高雄市政府可能原本分配的比例25%，可能要變成70%或多少，這可能都必須要大家一起來協商。"],["劉部長世芳：有可能。114年的總預算可能要跟財劃法一起連動，才能夠處理委員所說的這一段道路施工計畫總經費的部分。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝部長，這個部分我們還是要一起來努力，雖然我已經接手你繼續在處理新台17了，現在遇到的狀況，部長也非常清楚，也希望部長可以指示國土署，新台17要讓它如期在明年完工。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來努力。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","我還是要再次跟委員會說明，專案報告要排幾次、要怎麼解凍，大家都商量過了，包含今天的題目，剛剛有人在質疑今天的題目，今天的題目是跟國土署商量好的，不要打錯人，自己打臉政府很奇怪，如果解凍案真的要排三次，民進黨的召委要排三次以求完備，我們當然也會尊重，好不好？但是我們認為道路圈這個題目、案子排一次，把它講清楚，有些人關心品質、有些人關心人行道、有些人關心建設進度，把它講清楚了，對於解凍是有幫助的。再來，這個會議不是假的，召委該排、該處理好的、該溝通好的，都有做前置的溝通，不要到最後弄起來好像是民進黨委員不想解凍，這不太好看，好不好？","好，下一位我們請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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副本啊對啊對啊因為這今天的案子跟之後的解凍是有關係的啦所以應該是有一個複製的動作啦我的理解沒有錯的話應該是這樣但是不表示他會來備詢啦今天也沒有要處理解凍案嘛因為我剛剛有講過嘛這個程序是行政院提出來之後 復委之後我們才能夠進行解凍的處理但專報可以先走啦 好不好"},{"start":44.355,"end":61.587,"text":"這就是我的疑惑因為今天這個排這個專案報告會變成說我們在這邊不太知道用意為何既然不是要針對這個預算的內容進行解凍的討論那我們在這邊是不是有一點浪費時間呢所以呢我會覺得說大家如果早知道說這個"},{"start":63.488,"end":74.334,"text":"解凍就是有一定的程序那立法院過去的程序也都是必須要先由院會交付下來進到委員會我們才可以走這樣的解凍程序那我們在這邊竟然沒有辦法討論實質的解凍與否那在這邊討論這個專案報告"},{"start":79.756,"end":92.6,"text":"好像沒有任何實質的意義也沒有任何效益所以我是覺得說之後是不是就是不要這樣浪費時間了對所有的委員也不是很尊重啦那我們是不是先請那個國土署署長來吳署長有請"},{"start":103.287,"end":123.66,"text":"好 署長好其實剛剛很多委員都有提到說大家在各個選區擔心自己相關的這個人行道的工程的計畫延宕或是停擺那我在這邊也要幫我的選區來請命因為其實我的選區剛好去年我也很努力爭取到了一個是我們高雄中央公園周邊的人行道的計畫"},{"start":124.5,"end":147.603,"text":"那另外一個是我們高雄火車站周邊也有整體人行計畫的改善那甚至我們到現場也都會刊了非常多次好不容易有了新的進度結果因為今年的這個預算大砍大山大洞然後導致剛剛舊署長的意思聽起來是就算已經核定的也可能接下來走不下去是這個意思嗎"},{"start":148.423,"end":169.744,"text":"根本報告大概第一個就是在有關生活圈的部分有一些提案我們就會請他先暫緩因為我們在排那個每年的預算執行的時候會把執行中的優先那有些新提案的部分如果預算在執行過程當中的確排不進去我們會請他暫緩"},{"start":170.945,"end":186.268,"text":"那第二個大概就是前瞻的部分大概是衝擊最大因為很多縣市政府是把前瞻跟永續它是混合在提案的那這混合提案的話前瞻的部分沒有的話那可能連帶的一些案子也會受影響"},{"start":188.523,"end":204.733,"text":"謝謝署長的報告我聽完真的是要吐血了去年好不容易爭取到這個人行道的計畫對我們高雄市區的整個行人的改善非常非常之重要再加上去年上半年好不容易我們內政委員會通過了一個行人設施條例也順利三讀通過了"},{"start":205.994,"end":216.422,"text":"那所有全台灣的人民期待的是整個全台灣人行的計畫開始可以大動作的開始進行改善結果現在跟我說因為總預算被亂刪亂砍亂動導致我們原本的計畫必須停擺必須耽擱那這樣我們要怎麼對我們選民來交代呢"},{"start":228.01,"end":240.647,"text":"所以我是覺得非常遺憾啦再次還是要表達從去年下半年省預算到今年上半年的復議案再到現在我們要進行這個無關解凍實質與否的一個專案報告的討論都還是發現說"},{"start":245.873,"end":259.96,"text":"這個預算根本就是亂砍的啊對民眾來說不只沒有扶國利民而且禍國殃民我是覺得非常非常遺憾那我還是希望接下來有可以有盡快補救的措施包括說現在"},{"start":260.76,"end":263.962,"text":"因為我也知道說其實政院還有636億因為通刪要叫我們各個部會要自行刪減然後自行刪減之後才會確定到底刪了多少數字我們才有辦法進一步的討論怎麼送進立法院然後怎麼討論解凍這個就是現在因為亂砍預算然後沒有目的沒有章法的亂砍之後導致到已經今年已經到4月囉已經到4月了"},{"start":289.253,"end":315.742,"text":"還沒有辦法好好討論到底如何解凍這些預算這是我是覺得非常頭痛啊這件事情那也會很直接的影響到我們地方上的計畫那除了這兩個我們我的選區的計畫可能很可能受到影響之外我也還是要問一下啦因為其實我們還是很關心全台灣人行道的普及率那其實到目前為止我們全台灣市區的人行道普及率也只有38%"},{"start":317.799,"end":337.198,"text":"那這個就是為什麼我們去年上半年那麼急著要把人行行人設施條例通過是希望說接下來可以普及的快一點可是呢到目前為止以目前的缺口來說我大概算了一下如果以目前38%我們想要達到百分之百人行到普及還需要大概170年"},{"start":339.734,"end":365.742,"text":"以目前這個做法的進度下去啦還要170年我們全台灣的人行道才會讓大家在各個大街小巷都看到人行道普及那這是我這種很擔心說現在這種歸宿前進的建設進度到底要怎麼樣加快進度那當然預算的爭取是一個很重要的趕快立法院錢下來我們才有錢來加速的前進嘛"},{"start":366.522,"end":392.786,"text":"那還有沒有其他的方式是可不可以就是如果我們財政問題一直沒有辦法解決一直被被這樣子亂砍亂山之後我們到底還可以怎麼樣去改善呢根本報告其實因為在實體人行道的建設其實他是需要比較多的經費因為實體而且實體人行道他在過往當中以現有道路來講他要需要更多的溝通協調那但是標線型的"},{"start":393.382,"end":409.217,"text":"人行道當然是一個比較次要的那有時候也會民眾講說感覺上他需要更多的交通控制的手段來協助標線型人行道那相對成本是低但其實這兩個做法是可以混用但是呢"},{"start":409.697,"end":431.532,"text":"以經費不足的狀況下標籤型人行道跟小部分的入口改善是可以先行那這部分也是我們在另外在推相關計畫的時候會來盡力來協助地方政府達成而且標籤型人行道跟入口改善對地方政府來講財政的壓力是相對比較小這個我們同步也會協助地方政府來執行尤其在一些狹小巷弄"},{"start":432.232,"end":457.265,"text":"裡面這些都可以來做的這是我們同步可以來做但是如果希望大幅度的改善當然最終還是需要財政上的一個支持我想做這樣的報告好 謝謝署長這個部分再麻煩你再督促我們各地方縣市政府如果大型的這種實體的人行道沒有 第一時間因為錢下不去那是不是可以先讓他們先普遍的做這種簡易型的人行道呢是好 謝謝署長好 謝謝"},{"start":462.88,"end":464.327,"text":"好謝謝黃婕委員我再次跟委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時3分）謝謝主席，請問，立法院預算中心有代表在場可以回應嗎？沒有？"],["主席：今天沒有，預算中心基本上是運作的，除非有特別的事情，否則不會來備詢。"],["黃委員捷：因為我看開會通知上面副本有送預算中心、總務處等等。"],["主席：副本啦！"],["黃委員捷：對啊。"],["主席：因為今天的案子跟之後的解凍是有關係的，所以應該是有副知的動作，如果我的理解沒有錯的話，應該是這樣，但是不表示他會來備詢，而且今天也沒有要處理解凍案，我剛有講過，程序上是行政院提出來付委之後，我們才能夠進行解凍的處理，但專案報告可以先走。"],["黃委員捷：這就是我的疑惑，今天排專案報告會變成我們不太知道用意為何，既然不是針對預算的內容進行解凍討論，我們在這邊是不是有一點浪費時間呢？大家知道解凍有一定的程序，立法院過去的程序也都是必須先由院會交付下來進到委員會，我們才可以走解凍程序，現在既然在這邊沒有辦法討論實質的解凍與否，那麼這個專案報告好像就沒有任何實質意義，也沒有任何效益，所以之後是不是不要浪費時間，對所有的委員也不是很尊重。","好，先請國土署署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：署長好。剛剛很多委員都有提到擔心自己選區的人行道工程計畫延宕或是停擺，在此，我也要幫我的選區請命，因為去年我也很努力爭取到了，一個是高雄中央公園周邊人行道計畫，另外一個是高雄火車站周邊整體人行計畫的改善，甚至我們也到現場會勘了非常多次，好不容易有新的進度，結果因為今年預算大砍、大刪、大凍，導致剛剛署長的意思，聽起來是就算已經核定的，接下來也可能走不下去，是這個意思嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，第一個，有關生活圈的一些提案，我們會先暫緩，因為在排每年預算執行的時候，會把執行中的優先，有些新提案的部分，如果預算在執行過程當中排不進去，我們會請它暫緩；第二個，前瞻的部分大概衝擊最大，因為很多縣市政府是把前瞻跟永續混合提案，這些混合提案如果前瞻的部分沒有的話，很可能也連帶影響了一些案子。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝署長的報告，我聽完真的要吐血了，去年好不容易爭取到人行道的計畫，對高雄市區整個人行的改善非常重要，再加上去年上半年，好不容易內政委員會通過了行人交通安全設施條例，也順利三讀通過了，全臺灣人民期待的是整個人行計畫可以開始大動作進行改善，結果現在跟我說，因為總預算被亂刪、亂砍、亂凍，導致原本計畫必須停擺、耽擱，這樣我們要怎麼對選民交代？所以我覺得非常遺憾，從去年下半年審預算到今年上半年覆議案，再到現在進行無關實質解凍與否的專案報告討論，都還是發現預算根本亂砍啊！對民眾來說，不只沒有福國利民，而且是禍國殃民，我覺得非常遺憾，希望接下來可以儘快有補救的措施。我知道行政院還有通刪636億的部分要叫各個部會自行刪減，刪減之後才會確定到底刪了多少，這樣才有辦法進一步討論怎麼送進立法院，怎麼討論解凍，現在因為亂砍預算，沒有目的、沒有章法的亂砍之後，導致今年已經到4月了，還沒有辦法好好討論到底如何解凍這些預算，我覺得非常頭痛，也會很直接的影響到地方計畫。","除了這兩個我的選區計畫很可能受到影響之外，我們還是很關心全臺灣人行道的普及率，到目前為止，全臺灣市區的人行道普及率只有38%，這也是為什麼我們去年上半年急著要把行人交通安全設施條例通過，希望接下來的普及能夠快一點，可是到目前為止，以目前的缺口我大概算了一下，目前是38%，如果想要達到百分之百人行道普及率，以目前的作法還需要大概170年，才會讓大家在各個大街小巷看到人行道普及，我很擔心現在這種龜速前進的建設進度，到底要怎麼樣加快進度？當然預算爭取很重要，立法院趕快錢下來，我們才有錢來加速前進，但是還有沒有其他方式？如果財政問題一直沒有辦法解決，一直被這樣子亂砍、亂刪之後，我們到底還可以怎麼樣去改善呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為實體人行道的建設需要比較多的經費，而且以現有道路來講，它也需要更多的溝通協調；標線型的人行道當然是比較次要的，有時候民眾也會說，感覺上它需要更多交通控制的手段來協助，但它成本相對較低。其實這兩個做法可以混用，但是在經費不足的狀況下，標線型人行道跟小部分的路口改善可以先行，這個部分我們另外在推相關計畫的時候，會盡力協助地方政府來達成，而且標線型人行道跟路口改善對地方政府來講，財政壓力相對比較小，這部分我們會同步協助地方政府來執行，尤其是在一些狹小巷弄裡面，這些都是可以來做的。以上是我們可以同步來做的，但是如果希望大幅度的改善，最終還是需要財政上的支持。以上是我的報告。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長，這個部分再麻煩你督促各地方縣市政府，如果大型的、實體的人行道第一時間因為錢下不去而沒有辦法做，是不是可以讓他們先普遍地做這種簡易型的人行道？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員，我再次跟委員會報告、說明一下今天的一些議事流程跟規則。如果對於這個程序不是很瞭解，其實我都覺得可以多請教一下議事人員。我再次講一下解凍案的處理流程，如果要解凍、要處理，就是由行政院提出，付委之後在委員會討論，但是很多解凍案當初提案的條件都是要進行專案報告，經同意後始得解凍，換言之，如果今天沒有開這個專案報告的會議，之後也是要開的。我們現在如果可以用前面的時間多排幾場跟解凍案有關的專案報告，未來行政機關把解凍案送來，從議事效率的角度來說，我們可以一天處理好幾個，因為實際上詢答的程序都走完了，也不用好幾個專案報告都併在一起，最後造成會議發散的狀況。所以用前面的空檔先排專案報告，先把前提條件處理完，跟解凍案並不衝突，甚至還有助於解凍流程的推進。","以上再次特別跟委員會報告、說明。所以我想行政機關應該很清楚，我們早一點排，對解凍案到底是有幫助還是有害，我想這個大家都很清楚啦！好，謝謝。","接下來請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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請次長 級長 馮總好"},{"start":16.786,"end":43.66,"text":"好 大家早安今天難得針對這個議案我可以把我長期對於鐵道文化保存文化就是前瞻的議題就教於次長還有局長跟總經理那部部都是文化部這個是在蔡英文總統上任之後我們接駐的最新的文化資產保存的方向也就是過去大家覺得保存文化文資在利用那都是文化部的事 不"},{"start":44.66,"end":59.866,"text":"步步都是文化部那下一頁那先扣合著今天的主題喔作為氏族裁員來做長債基金其實是四個面向這個非常清楚我也是在整理這個質詢才發現哇你台鐵公司的話你的這個"},{"start":61.187,"end":73.355,"text":"管理的土地的比數2,004筆建物的比數136筆土地面積165萬平方公尺然後呢你承接的短期債務1,699億而且預計要30年來清償完畢這絕對是非常嚴峻的挑戰"},{"start":80.66,"end":91.446,"text":"所以我是對於今天的法案我支持幾位委員共同的方向排除國產法然後來適用文字法讓你們有比較大的彈性可以來做清償債務的作為下一頁"},{"start":93.53,"end":116.195,"text":"但是呢跟這個議題相關的就必須去討論到我們現在的國鐵公司條例修正案的第十條第二項裡頭呢你們因為不受國產法二十八條的限制未來的開發處分收益及其他相關事項交通部來定其實他新增的業務需求很多包括都更開發的火化"},{"start":116.875,"end":138.624,"text":"包括資產產權的處理也包括文化資產的協儲就是我本期非常在意的文化資產的協儲包括該保存的保存該修復的修復該活化再利用的活化再利用該公司協力的公司協力或者是中央地方要分工的都要中央地方去分工可是呢人力在哪裡"},{"start":140.104,"end":164.921,"text":"我以你們提供給立法院預算中心的報告裡頭有提到如果要滿足你們新增的這些業務至少要28位新增的人力而目前裡頭台鐵裡頭對於這28個人力的需求你們過去比較專善的也已經有的是專業土地開發的人才那對於文化資產的人才呢誰要回答"},{"start":168.319,"end":191.956,"text":"好包委員這個28個人我先報告一下就目前我們爭取到9個員額是那9個裡頭都是土地專業開發人才嗎第二個有關文化資產回到剛剛前面就是委員提到的幾個面向比如說台北機場那台北機場現在就要作為所謂的鐵道博物館那這個博物館的經營其實是由文化部成立台北機場的這個鐵道博物館的籌備處在進行當中"},{"start":193.777,"end":210.243,"text":"那是有文化部來幫忙是的也就是說未來有我今天不講台北機場就講你自己的你自己要做文化資產修復活化再利用的事實上這些作業就是文化部在做我們其實我們就是尊重文化部把所有的土地保留給台北機場來做使用"},{"start":210.603,"end":229.318,"text":"所以我不講台北機場好嗎我是說其他的部分以你好我剛剛講你有200多個土地2,004筆土地有136筆建物然後有好多好多你要管理的資產價值裡頭可能除了土地開發的人才你還會要有"},{"start":230.58,"end":256.327,"text":"必要的文資的人才嗎那28個人力需求你現在只討到9個好那另外的怎麼辦我先不要講文資了那其他怎麼辦你還前十幾個其他我們再繼續爭取那跟委員報告就是說原來屬於我們處理的策略就是文資的部分就讓文資的專業機關來做處理我們的這個案子我們是把容積移轉出來我知道限定做保留好我來換下一個問法下一頁"},{"start":258.047,"end":280.172,"text":"我次長你看一看這是我剛擔任立委因為我長期待在文化部門我剛剛擔任立委就是2017整理的資料喔二級機關下轄的文化資產數各部會裡頭交通部是第一名你要管理的有137個以列的文資不管是古蹟歷史建築紀念建築等等而"},{"start":282.348,"end":299.377,"text":"潛力文資數還沒被指定但是它有潛力的交通部是所有部會的第四名另外有143處是潛力文資而交通部裡頭的三級機關以下就台鐵局是所有行政院三級機關要管理文化資產數最高的有84處"},{"start":301.218,"end":318.3,"text":"我要說這是2017年喔是我們文資法大修之前喔換言之現在因為我沒有再做新的一個調查可能你的文化資產署、潛力文資署包括台鐵都是會增加很多的下頁所以說我其實是要肯定你們"},{"start":319.401,"end":342.615,"text":"市長你看齁其實在114年就是你們已經開始想到台鐵公司你們承擔的文化保存修復再利用的時代使命所以你們才會有多了編了1400萬的調研預算不是嗎對這1400萬是幹嘛你們還成立了文資科對我們成立文資科"},{"start":343.355,"end":369.744,"text":"就是為了要讓鐵道文物保存活化能夠一個定期的platform有專業的人力有一個平台可以列管可以追蹤可以推展目前台鐵有99處是你們在這個計畫裡頭要去做調研的這就是我剛剛說的是對的方向只是你的人力不要一直跟我講台北機場台北機場是因為有文化部他要作為整個鐵道博物館"},{"start":370.424,"end":391.872,"text":"但是你作為交通部的鐵道局下面的台鐵管理的就這麼多你絕對需要跟上然後我很開心啊我去了解發現你們在組織面在預算面在計畫面都有進展啊只是人力面還要再加強對不對下一頁我要做一個提醒你看看同樣是國營企業台糖台電台水"},{"start":397.15,"end":416.442,"text":"也都因應了他們第一個文資法的修正需要去由管理機關或所有人來編列預算辦理保存修復管理維護等等這是公有文化資產新的文資法的修正所以呢經濟部向下的這些企業他們都看到他去管理去修繕的這個"},{"start":418.183,"end":445.182,"text":"文資的責任他另訂了一個文化資產類別的考試然後去聘任相關的人員這就是我剛剛一直在跟您討論的你剛剛28個你現在才補9個9個裡面可能都是土地開發或是都市計劃的人才你要不要學習一下經濟部的這些作為像台電這幾年對於他的文化資產做得非常好他從修復"},{"start":446.303,"end":470.037,"text":"活化再利用他還辦很多的展覽文化路徑的小旅行跟台灣的設計產業合作讓台灣的水利發電的很多的工業遺址也都成為跟觀光可以結合這都是你高通貨的事情啊要不然你高通貨裡面你台鐵也好你鐵道局也好沒有人這樣在想出口事情啊所以次郎你可以綜合回覆一下嗎你們怎麼來強化這個呢"},{"start":472.208,"end":487.926,"text":"我想剛講的比較多的文資大概集中在台鐵的部分台鐵部分剛講我們也編列預算那也成立一個文資科我想這部分大概會後續看人力部分再盡量再補強至於剛講鐵道局28個人那個事情"},{"start":491.95,"end":517.308,"text":"9個人已經進來 這個我再請鐵道局再演繹一下是不是這裡面是不是要有幾個跟這個文資有關係專長的部分進來我再請他們再演繹一下謝謝次長 我要肯定你們台鐵已經有預算有專責文資科的組織 有相對應的計畫你們組成了鐵路文化保存及活用小組都很好 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潮州的基地還甚至我們基隆的七堵吊車站"},{"start":165.578,"end":188.683,"text":"發生了至少超過大概六起以上的一個事故那顯見我們台鐵公司在這個安全管理設施維護跟風險管理的部分還是有一些的螺絲鬆了這我想當初很多人也在問這個問題那包含我們每次委員會我們很多委員都一直在要求這個我們要這個上緊螺絲這個強化管理的部分那"},{"start":190.723,"end":215.997,"text":"董事長跟總經理到底我們針對這些事故我們怎麼做檢討 怎麼樣做防範有沒有一個SOP的一個因應對策是 我這個說明一下我們以這個剛講花蓮這個案子我用這個來做一個說明現在目前當然是大概鐵道局他在做調查那當然我們應援處台鐵公司應援處也在配合調查那我初步從那個現場去看起來是可能"},{"start":217.642,"end":244.362,"text":"跟那個木診會有點關係木診的部分那現在這個木診我們有一個所謂的軌道安全提升計畫我們現在大概針對所有戰場的木診的部分我們都在全面來開始來做把它汰換掉改為PC診這部分我們大概會在116全部都可以完成因為他為什麼這麼慢主要是因為平常他必須要調度我們沒有辦法去停止只能在他收班以後操班去做這個事情"},{"start":245.203,"end":267.323,"text":"所以他時間比較久但是現在是全面性的針對木診的部分全部要給他抽換為PC診這樣現在因為我們每天這個台鐵的運量還是非常的大既然我們找到原因知道原因我想還是要趕快來做處理要不然這個這麼多人這個生命產生安全每天都會受到威脅所以我想這個"},{"start":268.464,"end":294.227,"text":"因為每次聽到我們這個檢討之後那個更換的時間都很久了這次才是聽到人家膽戰心驚啦能不能加快施程這部分能不能有一個比較具體的一個施程進度因為我跟委員報告主要是因為他抽換PC診抽換那個木診主要是因為必須一定要收班因為不然平常他在調度所以會影響到他施程比較沒辦法快我想這部分我們再努力看看啦好不好"},{"start":294.727,"end":320.095,"text":"好那另外我還是要替我們屏東鄉親來請命那之前我有請我們我們台里公司的同仁到我辦公室針對我們屏東縣一個運輸的問題來做討論那因為我們發現這過去那上下班的時間事實上這個班次調度是沒有太大的問題但是因為有些區間跟區間塊的問題這個班次的調度出現很多的一個"},{"start":321.355,"end":342.504,"text":"異常造成我們這個上下班的同仁上下班的上班族還有通行的學生非常的不便那尤其我們很多這個我們屏東的公務人員他們早上要趕著到台北開會要趕九點的會他們必須五點多就要出門趕六點多的高鐵有時候坐不到就不會回來了"},{"start":344.285,"end":352.372,"text":"那依我們目前來看這個台鐵跟高鐵的這個班次的一個銜接上面還是有一些的落差這部分能不能來做檢討"},{"start":354.433,"end":370.048,"text":"銜接部分因為主要是這個我想我們可以來考慮看怎麼去把它更無縫接軌因為主要是路線的部分現在利用率已經到90.43%那中間車種太多了又要7000塊7000車都要的列車"},{"start":374.532,"end":390.624,"text":"影響實在是真的是比較複雜一點這部分我們要盡量來看可不可以先見秘境當然我知道你們就是有這樣的考量要有快車慢車要有調度的問題但是依我們看上下班上下學尖峰這個密度的部分能不能做有效的一個調整"},{"start":391.365,"end":410.259,"text":"好這個部分我想我們盡量能夠能在十分鐘內就剛講轉證的時間利用十分鐘內可以看可不可以來轉證這我們來努力好那另外除了班次調度我想屏東目前面臨最大問題就是我們這個屏東縣這個單軌的問題尤其我們目前潮州到南州還有林邊到枋寮"},{"start":411.46,"end":431.472,"text":"各地單軌運行所以台鐵的同仁跟我講說他們不是不幫忙是因為會受到調度的問題那這個說這個我們就很怕啦屏東縣真的是到目前為止還竟然還有單軌的一個軌道沒辦法通行那我之前有請楊局長這邊來做說明一下局長這部分能不能什麼時候來做改善"},{"start":434.881,"end":448.687,"text":"報告委員 這個我們放在那個南回現行改善這個案子裡面在做處理現在可能性研究已經報到行政院在做最後的這個審查計劃那這部分還是要加快進度因為我們還是有很多的這個需求能夠希望這個強化這個大眾運輸的一個能力"},{"start":451.528,"end":476.986,"text":"那最後那個次郎我想當然你現在目前待遇啦那之前在杜董事長的任內我們有跟他談到所謂一個產學合作尤其我們現在我們屏東有潮州基地那我們希望未來能夠結合我們在地的高中職甚至大學做一個產學合作幫我們屏東的孩子能夠在地升學在地就業也幫我們留住人才這部分能不能再強化一下"},{"start":478.071,"end":499.016,"text":"這應該可以啊 這沒問題這包委員我們有在進行持續在跟那另外一個這個我還是要幫我們這個台鐵上班的屏東子弟請命現在很多還在東部還在北部服務調不回來是因為我們的招考的部分一直不順利那我們之前幾位委員一直在提我們如果現行的招聘的"},{"start":499.676,"end":514.201,"text":"的條件跟薪資不提升的話我相信這救不了人啦那第二個很多很多現在結婚的也因為這樣的因素都選擇要離開台鐵我覺得這個是很悲哀的一件事情這能不能有效的一個做調整"},{"start":515.149,"end":540.05,"text":"這我跟委員報告,剛提到的薪資的部分,其實我們現在最近在根部那邊爭取幾個預算,就包括危險加急、偏遠地區加急還有一點費所以目前都已經報了部,那目前正在密切溝通,我們期盼應該會很快可以下來如果就下來以後,大概最多可以多到八千塊左右"},{"start":541.051,"end":554.685,"text":"是啦 我們也希望台鐵是一個幸福的企業那能怎麼樣留住人才 留住這個讓我們鄉親能夠願意在這個台鐵公司繼續做長遠的服務應該要有對策 也要有一個好的方案是 這我們來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時32分）謝謝主席，有請吳次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["徐委員富癸：還有臺鐵公司馮總經理。"],["主席：馮總經理。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：次長、總經理，我也是貴公司最忠實的客戶之一，我也是常常搭火車轉高鐵來臺北開會，剛剛蔡其昌委員提的問題，我就是現場的目擊者。坐火車的時候都會宣導說自強號持電子票證的人不能上車，但是我坐上去之後，我發現站的人一大堆，列車長在那邊巡來巡去，視若無睹，造成很多人的位子被坐了，為了要把他請起來，發生很多的爭執，這確實是有很多的案件發生，針對這個問題，公司怎麼做處理？請董事長回答。"],["伍次長勝園：我簡單補充一下，這部分當然之前來有提到這個問題，我們現在政策是這樣子，除了PP可以用電子票證，其他目前都還沒有，電子票證本來是可以到70公里，現在我們預計要把它縮短到50公里，就是50公里以內的可以上去，超過就不行，這是為了讓有座位的人不要覺得那麼擁擠，服務能夠提升……"],["徐委員富癸：但我覺得是在管制面出現了問題，事實上沒有拿到紙本票證的人一樣坐上去，站的人比較多。"],["伍次長勝園：對，所以我剛剛講的就是現在要把它縮短到50公里……"],["徐委員富癸：對，我發現自強號原本是有講說用電子票證，譬如用一卡通的人是不能上去的喔！"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["徐委員富癸：但我們發現還是有很多人上車。"],["伍次長勝園：但是以我過去，我曾經因為這樣被罰耶。"],["徐委員富癸：喔，很多啦！"],["伍次長勝園：真的，我就是被罰。"],["徐委員富癸：我長期在坐，我都發現這個問題非常嚴重。"],["伍次長勝園：因為我是實在來不及，但是我坐過一個就是對號，然後那個列車長……"],["徐委員富癸：我想包含剛剛蔡委員提這個問題，一定就是有很多乘客發現這樣的狀況，所以應該要嚴加稽查這個部分。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["徐委員富癸：我想清明連假也要特別感謝我們臺鐵公司的同仁不辭辛勞、堅守崗位，完成疏運的任務，但是包含代理董事長跟總經理，還是要提出對臺鐵近幾年、近一年來發生多起事故的檢討。尤其從去年6月開始，包含花蓮、潮州的基地，甚至基隆的七堵調車場，發生至少超過6起以上的事故，顯見臺鐵公司在安全管理、設施維護跟風險管理的部分還是有一些螺絲鬆了，我想剛剛很多人也在問這個問題，包含每次委員會我們很多委員都一直在要求要上緊螺絲、強化管理的部分。董事長跟總經理，針對這些事故，到底怎麼做檢討、怎麼樣做防範？有沒有一個SOP的因應對策？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我說明一下，以剛剛講的花蓮的案子，我用這個來做說明，現在是鐵道局在做調查，當然我們臺鐵公司的運安處也在配合調查，我初步從那個現場看起來，可能跟木枕的部分會有點關係。針對這個木枕，我們有一個軌道結構安全提升計畫，針對所有場站的木枕部分，我們全面開始要把它汰換掉，改為PC枕，這部分我們大概在116年全部都可以完成，它為什麼會這麼慢？主要是因為平常必須要調度，我們沒有辦法去停止，只能在收班以後才有辦法去做這件事情，所以時間會比較久，但是現在是全面性地針對木枕的部分全部要抽換為PC枕。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，因為臺鐵每天的運量還是非常大，既然我們找到原因、知道原因，我想還是要趕快來做處理啦，不然這麼多人的生命、財產、安全每天都受到威脅。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["徐委員富癸：因為每次聽到你們的檢討之後，更換的時間都要很久，這實在是聽到讓人家膽顫心驚，能不能加快時程，這部分能不能有一個比較具體的時程、進度？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，主要是抽換木枕必須一定要收班後，不然平常它在調度，所以會影響到，就比較沒辦法那麼快……"],["徐委員富癸：這個你們還是加快啦，再加快。"],["伍次長勝園：我想這部分我們再努力看看啦，好不好？"],["徐委員富癸：好。另外，我還是要替我們屏東鄉親來請命，之前我有請臺鐵公司的同仁到我辦公室，針對我們屏東縣一個運輸的問題來做討論，因為我們發現過去上下班的時間班次調度是沒有太大的問題，但是因為有些區間跟區間快的問題，班次的調度出現很多異常，造成上下班的上班族還有通勤的學生非常不便，尤其很多我們屏東的公務人員早上要趕著到臺北開會，要趕9點的會，他們必須五點多就要出門，趕六點多的高鐵，有時候如果趕不上就來不及了，依我們目前來看，臺鐵跟高鐵的班次銜接上還是有一些落差，這部分能不能來做檢討？"],["伍次長勝園：銜接的部分，我想我們可以來考慮看怎麼去更無縫接軌，因為主要是路線的部分，其實現在利用率已經到90.43%，中間車種太多了，又有區間快、區間車，還有對號的列車，影響實在真的是比較複雜一點，這部分我們儘量來看可不可以把它銜接得密切一點。"],["徐委員富癸：對，次長，當然我知道你們就是有這樣的考量，又有快車、慢車，然後又有調度的問題，但是依我們看，對於上下班、上下學尖峰時間的密度部分，能不能做有效的調整？"],["伍次長勝園：好，這個部分我想我們儘量看是否能夠10分鐘內來轉乘，這個我們來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好。另外，除了班次調度，我想屏東目前面臨的最大問題，就是我們屏東縣單軌的問題，尤其目前潮州到南州，還有林邊到枋寮，各地單軌運行，所以臺鐵的同仁跟我講說他們不是不幫忙，是因為受到調度的問題，說到這個，我們就很悲哀啦，屏東縣到目前為止竟然還有單軌的軌道，沒辦法通行。我之前有請楊局長這邊來做說明，局長，這部分什麼時候能夠來做改善？"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，這個部分我們放在南迴線形改善這個案子裡面在做處理，現在可行性研究已經報到行政院在做最後的審查階段。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分還是要加快進度，因為我們還是有很多的需求，希望能夠強化大眾運輸的能力。","最後，次長，當然你目前是代理，之前在杜董事長的任內，我們有跟他談到所謂的產學合作，尤其現在屏東有潮州基地，我們希望未來能夠結合在地的高中職，甚至大學做一個產學合作，幫屏東的孩子能夠在地升學、在地就業，也幫我們留住人才，這部分能不能再強化一下？"],["伍次長勝園：這應該可以，沒有問題。"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，我們有在進行，持續在跟……"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我還是要幫在臺鐵上班的屏東子弟請命，現在很多還在東部、還在北部服務，調不回來，是因為招考的部分一直不順利，之前有幾位委員一直在提，如果現行的招聘條件跟薪資不提升的話，我相信是招不到人的。第二個，現在很多結婚的也因為這樣的因素都選擇要離開臺鐵，我覺得這個是很悲哀的一件事情，這能不能有效地做一個調整？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，剛剛提到薪資的部分，其實我們最近在跟部那邊爭取幾個預算，包括危險加給、偏遠地區加給及夜點費，目前都已經報到部，也正在密切溝通，我們期盼應該會很快可以下來，如果這個下來以後，大概最多可以多到8,000塊左右。"],["徐委員富癸：是啦！我們也希望臺鐵是一個幸福的企業，看怎麼樣留住人才，讓我們鄉親能夠願意在臺鐵公司繼續做長遠的服務，這應該要有對策，也要有一個好的方案。"],["伍次長勝園：是，這我們來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：許智傑跟吳思瑤對調一下。","現在請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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請五次長請次長鐵道局梁局長然後台鐵局馮總經理馮總委員好次長好次長那個海線鐵道的這個雙軌高架"},{"start":24.159,"end":40.939,"text":"本席知道因為楊局長在之前有到我辦公室因為我陸續都會追蹤那個進度局長也很負責任只要有心有進度就會來本席的辦公室商討報告那現在最新的進度是因為那個財務"},{"start":43.561,"end":60.391,"text":"台中市政府送到交通部來的財務規劃裡面還是希望財務要中央尋求中央的補助那看起來那補助好像不符合中央的相關規定嘛是不是這樣所以我們又把報告退回請市政府修改"},{"start":62.062,"end":84.607,"text":"沒有問題 請局長回答一個報告委員 因為台中市政府在這個報告裡面有提到要求專案協商那按照要點 也就是我們立體化有一個這個審議的要點它有相關的這個計算的版本也就是說現在有按要點計算是A版本那台中市政府希望爭取比較優惠的條件 這是B版本"},{"start":85.7,"end":109.39,"text":"那我們這個在呈報過程當中因為相關的審議機關有意見所以我想我們會再來協助雙方來做溝通好那也私下跟台中市政府講一下啦就是刪了中央的預算再加上財政授制劃分把那麼多的錢都給地方政府所以要這個補助啊不是不行啦講起來獨立的嘛要中央"},{"start":110.47,"end":131.56,"text":"大錢來補助基本上我站在海線立委的立場我不會反對嘛就分配的比例除了公視之外我們盡量來協助地方政府趕快民眾要海線的這個雙軌高架能夠早日落實本席是支持的也就是說在合理之外我們怎麼盡量來幫助地方政府把這件事情做好"},{"start":132.296,"end":158.678,"text":"但是呢你把財政授權劃分把它切割一大塊給地方政府再來又預算又要刪又要動那又要中央補助哇這個世間怎麼有這種事情所以你們跟地方政府溝通的時候也要跟盧市長講一下嘛你不能這樣你們這個黨不可以這樣幹嘛這樣幹的結果就是就是導致中央沒錢沒錢你又要發公文又要這樣寫這樣怎麼合理"},{"start":161.705,"end":188.982,"text":"所以本席很支持啦只要中央有能力我們就盡量來幫忙但是要弱化中央又要中央幫忙這個是緣木求雨啦這是做不高的事情所以我會希望那個楊局長緊盯這個公文的進度啦不要只發給台中市政府請他做修改修改之後可能又要過半年過一年才又再修改上來好不好這個我再一次提醒啦"},{"start":190.762,"end":219.399,"text":"第二個我想今天這個來講一下這個台鐵這個償債基金的部分我想我就不再多談因為它主要還是放在本席有提案希望在法在法裡面解決你們是希望那個辦法就是償債基金你們打算多久要把債償完市長30年嘛對不對你們辦法裡面寫30年嘛因為這個償債基金它不是一個"},{"start":221.283,"end":244.017,"text":"純粹性的啦也就是它不是一支你們要藏在基金裡面你們要運為譬如說裡面又有百年企業所以你們就一百年要去藏在兩百年永久性的長期性的不是它就有一個年限嘛台鐵公司土地作價給鐵道局然後鐵道局你要把債務還清所以它有一個年限啦那本息為了"},{"start":245.322,"end":263.377,"text":"為了認為這個很慎重應該趕快來處理這個土地常在的事情所以本席把它放在法律裡面來處理那你們希望在辦法裡面來處理這個等一下主席在主持這個討論的時候我沒有堅持啦我只是強調不可以"},{"start":264.534,"end":291.172,"text":"沒有期限的一直下去那為什麼我擔心這個沒有不能沒有期限的一直下去這個要回過過來你看看台鐵台鐵公司你看這個大家都在講公司化本席也不反對公司化透過台鐵的公司化可不可以提升台鐵的績效讓永遠虧損的台鐵公司能夠步上軌道來賺錢至少不賺錢也不要每年虧損這麼多錢"},{"start":293.936,"end":305.225,"text":"那你看我們每一年的預估,你看我再把你們自己的預估表拿出來看你們的預估表當中,你看已經發生的啦你們預估113年要虧損74.9億,但實際上虧損多少?137.9億你不覺得這個預估差距有一點遠嗎?"},{"start":318.673,"end":335.733,"text":"主要是幫委員如果可以給我說明一下我當然要聽你說明因為公司化我們其實做支付金提撥23億當初也沒有在預算裡面被考量所以後來還有那為什麼沒有被考量這件事情是突然之間發生沒有被考量進去"},{"start":336.827,"end":362.613,"text":"對就因為我們的預算都是113年預算在121年我們就提報112送到院裡面所以在兩年前我們就在估的時候公司化的政策有配合有編列部分的一些費用預算費用但是大部分的費用沒有編列進去的所以也要特別說明一下那中間過程還碰到電價有兩次的調漲"},{"start":363.593,"end":389.3,"text":"那鐵路運輸業調漲幅度都很高又高達15%那再來就是我們的優退的一個機制措施也大概也投入了5到6億那所以電費然後薪資調漲所以這種種加起來事實上我們有如果同一個基準來計算的話事實上我們的虧損跟這個預算的預估的虧損是很接近的這個也跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":390.12,"end":414.913,"text":"對啦 總經理這個你講這些理由其實我不能說我反對啦但是如果我們以一個公司運營的角度啦一個公司我現在要編假設我要開產114的時候我就已經可以大約預估未來一年除非像黑天鵝啦就像今天川普這幾天川普關稅的事情對不對大家覺得他應該不會這麼狠結果他真的那麼狠"},{"start":415.413,"end":433.685,"text":"但他有沒有跡象 他還是有跡象嘛所以該避險的人 他在川普可能上他可能當選就是一個時機避險的時機再來第二個川普在談關稅的時候可能就是第二個時機因為他說我們在清明年假的時候他之前要宣布嘛所以有人這兩個他都避了"},{"start":434.858,"end":446.803,"text":"他就進行相關的避嫌所以你說他黑天鵝嘛是但也沒有到那麼黑啦這個天鵝也沒有那麼黑啦所以我的意思在講說一個公司啊虧損預估虧損74億實際上虧損137億"},{"start":452.806,"end":479.193,"text":"這個幅度說實在話有一點大有一點大所以電會不會上漲其實我們應該已經會知道因為電會不會上漲我們做政府自己都還不知道電會不會上漲我覺得這個說不大過去你完全腦袋裡面沒有這本來預估電會下跌的結果電竟然上漲我認為應該不會吧因為大家所有的企業都預估電會上漲"},{"start":480.936,"end":495.701,"text":"就像你要我預估明年我還是會告訴你電有可能會上漲啊因為這是我們可預期的就像川普的關稅也是一樣從他當選那一刻到他宣布4月2號宣布其實都是可預期的所以我的意思就是說"},{"start":496.421,"end":519.712,"text":"台鐵預估這個數字都讓我感到害怕啦所以你常債基金我叫你三十年已經衝衝的原因就是這後輩都不遵守這都不知道要說到什麼時候但我不堅持啦你辦法上面有我覺得就表示一個態度啦態度先出來只是我很擔心那個態度跟實際執行的結果還是有相當的距離跟落差啦好那台鐵公司114年"},{"start":521.613,"end":524.695,"text":"從虧損實際上虧損137億我們預計你們的預算是要來預計虧損8.6億預估虧損86億這個差距怎麼弄這個怎麼樣變成137億要虧損86億你們怎麼算的"},{"start":544.468,"end":570.694,"text":"報告委員就是我們在首先是在收入面收入面我們有預計我們的營運本業會增加到7億元左右那我們的附屬事業包括便當文創商品還有這個IP的授權那也會增加到10億左右今年大概是8.6億所以我們有設定這樣的一個KPI就是營收的增加那還有就是剛才講的公司化"},{"start":571.654,"end":588.936,"text":"當初第一年有投入的一些支出有減少那接著再計算我們一個人事的成本那人事在支出的費用裡面三大項是主要的一個是用人費用一個是折舊費用這兩項事實上就佔了我們整個公司的支出的八成"},{"start":589.577,"end":610.189,"text":"那我們所以在114年碰到 營收我們一定會增加我們預估大概都會增加到10%到15%之間那但是資本的支出我們折舊因為這個新車投入了將近1000億開始就要分攤折舊費用所以折舊費用也會同步的增加20到30億所以"},{"start":612.35,"end":635.957,"text":"所以我們整體的努力相關的一些費用能夠節流那再開源那整體的這個營收可以相較113年可以減少大約50億這個虧損以上報告我總經理這樣啦因為時間真的是太短了就我要認真的每一個項目來問你譬如說營業外收入為什麼"},{"start":638.289,"end":654.394,"text":"減少的砍了快一半這個我都很希望了解所以是不是總經理你把未來你們的預估的狀況讓我了解一下每一個每一個細項你們到底要增加要增減多少讓我了解一下那個主席時間是不是已經到了"},{"start":659.704,"end":688.443,"text":"那個齁另外那個站票跟坐票的問題啊我看消費者大家都很在意嘛到底我們的志強號哪一些是可站哪一些是不可站那為什麼站的人跟坐的人都在吵架都在吵架啦那到底為什麼時間都沒時間 我很想了解耶這齁台鐵公司部跟旅客都會玩架每天都在上網齁這個罵坐的人罵站的站的人罵坐的"},{"start":689.568,"end":697.852,"text":"阿這個我們難道沒有想要解決嗎就我們的有啦齁那怎麼解決來告訴我一下啦好不好時間的關係我沒在這裡跟你們問啦好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時20分）謝謝主席，請伍次長、鐵道局楊局長，然後臺鐵局馮總經理。"],["主席：請次長、楊局長、馮總。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長好。次長，海線鐵道雙軌高架化，本席知道楊局長之前有到我辦公室，因為我陸續都會追蹤進度，局長也很負責任，只要有新的進度就會來本席辦公室商討、報告。現在最新的進度是因為財務，臺中市政府送到交通部的財務規劃裡面還是希望財務要尋求中央的補助，看起來那補助好像不符合中央的相關規定，是不是這樣？所以你們又把報告退回請市政府修改，沒關係，可以請局長回答。"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，因為臺中市政府在報告裡面有提到要求專案協商，按照要點，也就是立體化有一個審議要點，它有相關的計算版本，現在按要點計算的是A版本，那臺中市政府希望爭取比較優惠的條件，這是B版本。我們在陳報過程當中因為相關的審議機關有意見，所以我們會再來協助雙方做溝通。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，也私下跟臺中市政府講一下，就是刪了中央的預算，再加上財政收支劃分把那麼多的錢都給地方政府，所以要這個補助不是不行，大家要講一個道理，要中央大錢來補助，基本上我站在海線立委的立場，我不會反對嘛！就是分配的比例除了公式之外，我們儘量來協助地方政府趕快讓民眾要的海線雙軌高架能夠早日落實，本席是支持的，也就是說在合理之外，我們怎麼儘量來幫助地方政府把這件事情做好。但是你用財政收支劃分把它切割一大塊給地方政府，再來預算又要刪、又要凍，那又要中央補助，哇！世間哪有這種事情？所以你們跟地方政府溝通的時候也要跟盧市長講一下，你們這個黨不可以這樣幹嘛！這樣幹的結果就是導致中央沒錢、沒錢，你的公文還要這樣發、這樣寫，這樣合理嗎？所以本席很支持，只要中央有能力，我們就儘量來幫忙，但是要弱化中央，又要中央幫忙，這個是緣木求魚啦！這是做不到的事情，所以我會希望楊局長緊盯這個公文的進度，不要只是發給臺中市政府請它做修改，修改之後可能又要過半年、一年，才又再修改上來，好不好？"],["楊局長正君：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個我再一次提醒啦！","第二個，我想今天來講一下臺鐵，償債基金的部分我就不再多談，因為它主要還是放在……本席有提案希望在法裡面解決，你們是希望那個辦法……就是償債基金你們打算多久要把債償完？次長，30年嘛！對不對？你們辦法裡面？"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，30年。"],["蔡委員其昌：寫30年嘛！"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為這個償債基金不是一個存續性的，也就是它不是一直……償債基金裡面你們要運維，譬如說裡面又有百年企業，所以你們就100年要償債、200年要償債，永久性的、長期性的，不是，它就有一個年限嘛！臺鐵公司土地作價給給鐵道局，然後鐵道局要把債務還清，所以它有一個年限，本席認為這個要很慎重，應該趕快來處理土地償債的事情，所以本席把它放在法律裡面來處理，而你們希望在辦法裡面來處理，這個等一下主席在主持討論的時候，我沒有堅持，我只是強調不可以沒有期限地一直下去，為什麼我擔心不能沒有期限地一直下去？這要回過頭來看臺鐵，你看大家都在講公司化，本席也不反對，透過臺鐵的公司化可不可以提升臺鐵的績效，讓永遠虧損的臺鐵公司能夠步上軌道賺錢？至少不賺錢也不要每年虧損這麼多錢。你看每一年的預估，我再把你們自己的預估表拿出來看，你們的預估表當中已經發生的，你們預估113年要虧損74.9億，但實際上虧損多少？總經理。"],["馮總經理輝昇：137.9億。"],["蔡委員其昌：你不覺得這個預估差距有一點遠嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，主要是……報告委員，可以給我說明一下嗎？"],["蔡委員其昌：我當然是要聽你說明。"],["馮總經理輝昇：因為公司化，我們其實職福金提撥23億，當初也沒有在預算裡面被考量，後來還有……"],["蔡委員其昌：等一下、等一下，為什麼沒有被考量？這件事情是突然之間發生，沒有被考量進去？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，因為我們的預算都是……113年預算在111年……"],["蔡委員其昌：112年？"],["馮總經理輝昇：111年我們就提報了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對。"],["馮總經理輝昇：112年才送到院裡面。"],["蔡委員其昌：院裡面審查，對。"],["馮總經理輝昇：所以兩年前我們在估的時候，公司化的政策有配合編列部分一些預算費用，但是大部分的費用沒有編列進去，所以也要特別說明一下，中間過程還碰到電價有兩次的調漲，鐵路運輸業調漲幅度都很高，也有高達15%，再來就是我們的優退機制措施大概也投入了5到6億。所以電費，然後薪資調漲，這種種加起來，如果同一個基準來計算的話，事實上我們的虧損跟預算的預估虧損是很接近的，這個也跟委員做一個報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：對啦！總經理，你講這些理由其實我不能說我反對，但是如果我們以一個公司運營的角度，一個公司現在假設我要開始編114年的時候，我就已經可以大約預估未來一年，除非像黑天鵝，就像這幾天川普關稅的事情，對不對？大家覺得他應該不會這麼狠，結果他真的那麼狠，但是他有沒有跡象？他還是有跡象，所以該避險的人在川普可能當選就是一個避險的時機；再來第二個，川普在談關稅的時候可能就是第二個時機，因為他說在清明連假之前要宣布嘛！所以有人這兩個他都避了，就進行相關的避險，所以你說他是黑天鵝嗎？是，但也沒有到那麼黑，這個天鵝也沒有那麼黑。","所以我的意思是在講一個公司預估虧損74億，實際上虧損137億，這個幅度說實在話有一點大、有一點大。電會不會上漲？其實我們應該會已經知道，因為電會不會上漲，我們做政府自己都還不知道電會不會上漲，我覺得這個說不大過去，你完全腦袋裡面沒有，本來預估電會下跌的，結果電竟然上漲，我認為應該不會吧！應該大家、所有的企業都預估電會上漲，就像你要我預估明年，我還是會告訴你電有可能會上漲，因為這是我們可預期的，就像川普的關稅也是一樣，從他當選那一刻到他4月2號要宣布，其實都是可預期的。所以我的意思就是說，臺鐵預估這個數字都讓我感到害怕，所以償債基金我叫你30年趕快處理，原因就是這以後都不算數，這都不知道要說到什麼時候，但我不堅持，就是你的辦法上面有，我覺得就表示一個態度，態度先出來，只是我很擔心那個態度跟實際執行的結果還是有相當的距離跟落差。好，臺鐵公司114年實際上虧損137億，你們的預算書是預計虧損8.6億……"],["馮總經理輝昇：86億。"],["伍次長勝園：86億。"],["蔡委員其昌：預估虧損86億，這個差距怎麼弄？怎麼變成137億要虧損86億，你們怎麼算的？"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，首先是在收入面，我們有預計營運本業會增加7億元左右，我們的附屬事業包括便當、文創商品，還有IP授權，也會增加到10億左右，今年大概是8.6億，所以我們有設定這樣的KPI，就是營收的增加。還有就是剛才講的，公司化當初第一年投入的一些支出有減少，接著再計算我們的人事成本，在支出的費用裡面有三大項是主要的，一個是用人費用，一個是折舊費用，這兩項事實上就占了我們整個公司支出的八成，所以在114年碰到……營收一定會增加，我們預估大概會增加到10%到15%之間；但在資本支出方面，因為有折舊的部分，所以新車投入了將近1,000億，要開始分攤折舊費用，折舊費用也會同步增加20到30億。以我們整體的努力來說，對於相關費用節流，再進行開源，整體的營收相較113年可以減少約50億的虧損。以上報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。總經理，這樣啦，因為時間真的是太短，我要認真地每一個項目來問你，譬如說營業外收入為什麼減少了、砍了快一半，這個我都很希望了解，所以總經理是不是把你們未來的預估狀況讓我了解一下？每一個細項你們到底要增加、要增減多少，讓我了解一下。"],["馮總經理輝昇：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主席，時間是不是已經到了？怎麼這麼短，我才問一下而已，時間就到了。","另外，有關站票跟坐票的問題，我看消費者大家都很在意，到底自強號哪一些是可站、哪一些是不可站？為什麼站的人跟坐的人都在吵架？到底為什麼？沒有時間問了，我很想了解，臺鐵公司搞到旅客都在吵架，每天上網都看到坐的人罵站的、站的人罵坐的，你們難道沒有想要解決嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：有、有、有。"],["伍次長勝園：有、有、有。"],["蔡委員其昌：有啦，怎麼解決，你們來告訴我一下，好不好？時間的關係，我沒辦法在這裡問了。"],["馮總經理輝昇：好。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。不好意思，今天兩個委員會聯席，時間有比較短，不好意思。","我們現在請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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包括我們的乘務人員 我們的列車長 車長 對還有我們這個站務人員 票閘口 會跟旅客直接接觸 我們有做一個全面的一個調查那這次納入應該就是要被調查的員工人數大概是多少人"},{"start":119.674,"end":135.381,"text":"人數的話我1039人1039人那實際完成調查的員工人數是多少人?實際950人是1139人那實際被調查的人數是900人調查表是950是950人嗎?"},{"start":144.065,"end":150.709,"text":"900人是900人那在接受這項調查的員工當中有多少人認為應該要佩戴密錄器認為有這個需要現在有依照我們業務單位是57人57%57%那總經理您這邊知道就是認為有需要的人數是多少嗎有計算嗎"},{"start":176.833,"end":204.386,"text":"對沒關係認為有需要的人數是510人那確實他佔了57%那認為沒有需要的是313人那佔34%那總經理那請問在這次的調查有多少員工認為應該統一供發密錄器對這認為有需要的我們在第一波的這個調查裡面那目前按照資料510人都是認為是有需要要"},{"start":206.049,"end":226.364,"text":"來做一個佩戴實際人數其實是513人那有500那其中那認為就是沒有不需要公發的人數是339人那換句話說有超過一半的員工贊成公發密錄器那加上沒有意見的的員工呢那就是有超過六成那請問總經理這樣的解讀沒有錯吧"},{"start":228.354,"end":245.226,"text":"對 如果按照我們先前的做針對我們要保護的對象的調查那既然有超過一半的員工他是贊成公發密錄器那加上沒有意見的有那這樣子是打六成以上那為什麼在會議上所有的代表卻一致反對公發密錄器呢"},{"start":247.113,"end":258.689,"text":"就我們現在目前的了解因為3月13號有召開公使會議那相關的出席的代表老公代表也有表達就是在過程中因為"},{"start":260.148,"end":286.918,"text":"公發密錄器還要負保管的責任那我們有參考相關單位他們的一個密錄器的使用的相關規定那因為配發了這個密錄器我們就希望所以總經理您認為是因為要負保管的責任所以大家一致反對還有全程要做攝影他們也有提到這樣的一個沒錯 那其中他是在第二點乘務執行中應全程開機錄影您認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":289.322,"end":315.18,"text":"對 在討論過程中他們也有提到他們舉例說如果上廁所也要開那我們內部是有評估就是有些比較特殊的涉及個人在執行過程中比如上廁所這種比較隱私的確實是可以來做一個關機上廁所也要開確實侵犯到隱私怎麼會有這一點說在執行的全程都應該要開呢為什麼當時沒有排除這一點"},{"start":317.004,"end":328.03,"text":"當初訂這樣全程是一個原則性原則性就是說希望發給這樣一個密錄器本身因為非常的不合理當初我們就是在討論的時候就是為了要保護員工"},{"start":330.049,"end":357.022,"text":"那這樣子反而造成他們受到全面監控的壓力增加心理負擔那導致反抗和反感還有抗拒的心理這樣無助於安全那是否要重新來檢視這個管理規範對我們會再跟透過公使會議再跟我們的老房的相關的代表來做一個溝通討論就針對這樣的一個執勤中他們比較在意的一個事項大家去做一個討論不過因為"},{"start":358.863,"end":386.658,"text":"密錄器的這個發放它是屬於統一發放那我們還是希望它能夠發揮它的效果所謂它發揮效果就是說在需要的時候它的影像都能夠有記錄完整的記錄下來那才能夠確保我們公共的安全公共門派發密錄器早已行之有年我們來看到這幾個機關像在消防機關它在執行使用隨身影像記錄器的時候它有管理指導原則那財政部那它也有"},{"start":387.734,"end":404.987,"text":"他也有管理要點那包括台南市政府的社會局還有所屬機關那我們看到這三個單位的共同點都是他們授權佩戴人員他根據現場來判斷是否要開啟錄影他們尊重專業然後兼顧彈性他們並沒有要求要全程都要開機錄影"},{"start":406.588,"end":432.573,"text":"那台鐵這邊是不是要再重新討論對 包委員就是因為每個單位每個同仁他的工作的性質是不一樣那台鐵是我們的同仁比如說我們列車廠在列車執勤的時候他是全部的執勤過程中都有可能會碰到旅客有一些這個不當的行為可是我們常常看到新聞畫面其實很多衝突都是由其他乘客來做側拍"},{"start":433.593,"end":457.067,"text":"那如果今天就是我們講到第一線的員工他們在執勤的時候如果遇到突發狀況他們身上至少有這個密錄器可以隨時按下然後做記錄那也是一個衝突事件的就可以拿來作為證據那為什麼台鐵一定要硬性規定要全程都必須要錄影那這樣子他們他臨時要去上廁所的時候他也不能關閉這樣是不是違反你們的規定"},{"start":458.087,"end":485.667,"text":"對 我們可以針對這一塊就是說真正有涉及到他的飲食不便的部分我們可以來做討論但我們還是希望說既然已經有公發密錄器希望在他執行的過程中都能夠把他相關的一些影像能夠記錄起來那也方便事後可以做這個相關一些責任的釐清那也可以作為相關單位查證的一個參考依據這樣才是保護 才能夠有效的保護我們的第一線同仁"},{"start":486.417,"end":492.621,"text":"總之由於時間的關係 那請再提供我後續你們演繹的內容OK 好 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感謝主席 本期邀請我們交通部有次長請次長我們鐵道局鐵道局楊局長局長"},{"start":14.403,"end":41.172,"text":"文化部今天是文字局莊委上來文字局莊委 委員好好 市長好市長本期要先來關心我們台南火車站就台南市的鐵路地下化那現在非常重要的就是既有台南火車站的工程它現在第二月台要如何處置那第一月台是要保留"},{"start":43.873,"end":71.087,"text":"這屬於文化資產保護啦這個第一月台這沒有問題像是第二月台的問題那第一月台好像之前鐵道局是說那個下城市廣場以北的部分第二月台保留但廣場以南的部分第二月台要先拆掉到別的地方再重組這個如果做文物保留本席沒有意見我現在擔心的是會不會影響到接下來的地下化工程的進度"},{"start":72.25,"end":97.512,"text":"因為之前在地下化工程施工的時候就曾經會挖到文物遺址嘛已經停工兩年了當時就已經延宕兩年現在處理好了現在又遇到了這個火車站站體本身第二月台的問題好像在前幾天有開那個審議嘛是不是這樣有審議結論怎麼樣那第二月台有沒有共識第二月台處理有共識嗎現在有沒有人知道"},{"start":105.898,"end":119.583,"text":"第二月台的部分它對我們來說是報告案那原來他們希望的部分是讓它是之後是會在原地重組不會讓它移到其他的地方所以可以先拆除在原地重組嗎對"},{"start":121.997,"end":148.915,"text":"大家跟文化界人士已經有共識了是嗎是是是 海上委員會沒有提出報告好了 局長那這樣會不會再耽誤到我們台南市鐵路地下化工程報告委員我想這部分對第一階段的下地通車沒有影響也就是說後續怎麼樣去幫助你上面車站的問題對對對上面車站的問題那現在我們下方的軌道都跟相關的隧道工程都在積極的進行當中好"},{"start":151.926,"end":174.957,"text":"希望能夠盡速如期的我們來完成台南市最重要的一個公共工程這之一就是我們的鐵路地下化這我們全力來努力這個也是我們賴總統在他市長任內這個可以說是全力推動你也知道在這個過程也遇到一些困難但是我們都逐一的克服這個對未來"},{"start":176.658,"end":193.747,"text":"整個台南市的發展可以說是非常非常重要將既有的救市區因為鐵軌分成兩邊我們把它封合起來希望能夠如期完成 好吧好 這個沒問題那我現在 文哲舉可不可以坐"},{"start":195.444,"end":216.063,"text":"我現在要請教兩位知不知道在今年年初過年小年夜的時候曾經發生我們的台鐵列車大霧點就是因為我們的號誌整個突然間故障號誌整個都亂掉了"},{"start":217.355,"end":241.801,"text":"那小連夜正是運輸尖峰的時候那突然間怎麼會造成這樣的一個大霧點後來去查原因就是耗資出了問題為什麼出問題因為電纜被偷減了對處長你知道這個事情嗎我知道我知道這個事情那我現在在想的就是我們的海底電纜發生多次了"},{"start":242.967,"end":270.317,"text":"被應該說肯定都是中國的船隻用故意的就這樣騷擾你就把海底電纜給撤斷了已經發生很多起了前幾天還發生中國的船隻又撤斷我們的電纜我們把人跟船壓回我們台灣港內來處理的事件那現在台鐵的電纜被剪斷"},{"start":271.772,"end":293.354,"text":"所以我就好奇 我就去查一下資料台鐵過去五年來它的電纜被剪斷像在2020年就一次了 2021年也一次2022年開始被偷減電纜的次數就大幅增加去年就被剪斷了九次"},{"start":295.114,"end":309.201,"text":"那因為台鐵也屬於國家基礎設施就是它國安設施的一部分所以你台鐵的電腦被剪斷這個要通報國土安全辦公室那也引起了行政院的注意"},{"start":310.697,"end":330.366,"text":"那這個事情次長你了解嗎我知道跟委員報告齁這個案子目前是已經破案齁目前齁暫時排除有所謂公安的問題你都是用竊盜罪嘛對對那主要是因為那我會擔心嘛不管他是不是真的竊盜罪啦你只要被剪斷啦你整個"},{"start":331.584,"end":355.85,"text":"交通動線就受影響是乘客的權利就受影響對 上次小連夜就是因為這個原因所以造成我們整個第一個我那時候懷疑就是說為什麼小連夜小連夜正是運量最繁忙的時候那你那個時候去檢這個小時候你會被拒絕絕對會被抓到不是就是說警方就會有破案的壓力對不對"},{"start":358.16,"end":386.241,"text":"再來 早年台灣還有頭家電算啦 頭家電那麼去買的啦現在很多人在家電那麼去買什麼啦 很多人去買這個啦是不是 反而相反啦 你現在一年發生的次數會越來越多啦所以我要請台鐵 我們鐵路警察局今天有沒有來 沒有來齁你隨便都把它當成就是一般的竊案啦 就把它給結案了啦但是我們要做一些預防啦"},{"start":387.442,"end":410.577,"text":"因為你台鐵是國家基礎安全設施基礎建設之一所以我就請教台鐵我說像你這樣電纜你2024年已經發生了九次幾乎每一個月都被剪斷一次了這還得了我就請教台鐵那你如何來反映來回應這樣電纜被偷減"},{"start":414.431,"end":437.058,"text":"來 處長我給你看 局長你看一下這是台鐵回覆給本席的公文我問他說你如何去防止或者是預防或者是如何去處理你的電纜被偷檢你有沒有人要代替他告訴我代替說他要去打那個警告標語你再給我胡攏音也不要給我亂寫"},{"start":444.5,"end":470.378,"text":"我問你如何去處理你電纜,你現在暴增被偷減的次數啦去年已經到9次了我問他你怎麼處理,他給我回覆這個公文啦他說他要去大警告標語啦叫大家不要來淘汰啦,大家忙來做菜啦根文報告,這個說法是確實是比較消極啦這不是消極,你隨便給我呼嚨"},{"start":472.323,"end":490.096,"text":"我還是立法委員 我還是交通委員會的委員我問你如果處理 你給我說 你們去圍牆貼警告標語叫大家忙來做菜 大家不可以偷家電 電線電纜因為亂來意 那我再舉一個例子給你看我去查一下人家國外怎麼做法"},{"start":491.889,"end":520.439,"text":"你不努力也要用功一下查一下這是英國鐵路公司啦英國鐵路公司的網頁他專門有一個頁面是在告訴大家這種電纜的缺案他們公司要如何來應對我們台鐵也沒有任何頁面在講這個事情可見你過去都完全不把它當一回事啦但是當你一年有發生到九次從原本一年一次現在一年沒有九次被剪斷電纜"},{"start":522.357,"end":543.487,"text":"這偷電纜是很愚蠢的竊盜行為很不容易囂張也沒有什麼人在買那個東西那你如果去防止你也要稍微研究一下隨便給我丟個公文你給我大佛公你要去大警告標語就是很亂來的那我再給你參考一下像英國鐵路公司那怎麼處理"},{"start":544.502,"end":569.589,"text":"第一個他說因為有去偷檢所以他們用那個是可以追蹤的電纜就增加你囂張就是你這個檢下來就算髒物你就很難賣掉了第二個因為不是每一個路段都有可能被侵入去偷檢所以他在很可能會被偷檢的地方他都有裝置一些像監視設備甚至感應儀器還有他的電纜都特殊的電纜"},{"start":574.839,"end":598.587,"text":"這國外有這樣的方法你可以去學嘛而不是貼個標語那如果萬一啦再發生我現在給你調你的資料你看你去年被剪斷9次那你絕對就是延誤班那個乘客的班車的時間啦 乘客的權利你一年損失多少 你自己有沒有算所以切到不是不是剪下來就算啦"},{"start":599.673,"end":612.568,"text":"因為你有成本啦,你要賠人家車票給人家退票,你要補償乘客啊你一年因為契案,要多少錢,你知道嗎台北縣有沒有來?有,有委員總經理你知道嗎?你也要算這個啦"},{"start":616.958,"end":630.064,"text":"那體育警察局今天沒有來我因為沒有時間了啦你這個事情我請台鐵給我一個答案好不好你如果反應或者是說預防或者說發生你如果去處理"},{"start":631.482,"end":648.861,"text":"已經逐年增加而且增加到不能忍受的一個程度了你居然被剪了九次了我現在懷疑這是不是刻意的啊海底電纜被偷剪那幾乎同時間2022年開始我們陸上 陸地上的電纜也頻繁發生被剪斷尤其台鐵啊"},{"start":651.17,"end":666.525,"text":"你要去考量有沒有這樣一個關聯性嘛你每個案子你都把它隨便當成一個竊案嘛如果就算是這樣那你也不能讓它持續而且增加發生的次數嘛造成台鐵損失你也不處理你也不恢復 你看你給我恢復到什麼"},{"start":670.64,"end":686.269,"text":"我們會針對這個議題現在已經跟陸警局有橫向聯防他們有發現可疑的這個竊盜集團都會跟我們做聯繫然後我們現在針對可疑的地點就剛委員提到的我們也會來研議來裝設攝影機來看來加強在監控這個部分我們會持續來來把它"},{"start":692.805,"end":706.641,"text":"你為什麼不這麼答覆,你給我答覆說你要去大體的警告不要語呼籲大家不要來偷檢,叫大家忙來做餐好不好,尊重一下好不好好,謝謝市長,謝謝局長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時59分）感謝主席，本席邀請交通部伍次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林委員俊憲：還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：局長。"],["林委員俊憲：文化部今天是文資局專委來嗎？"],["主席：文資局專委。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長好。次長，本席要先來關心我們臺南市的鐵路地下化，現在非常重要的就是既有臺南火車站的工程，那現在第2月臺要如何處置？第1月臺是要保留，因為是屬於文化資產保護，所以第1月臺沒有問題，現在是第2月臺的問題。關於第2月臺，好像之前鐵道局是說那個下沉式廣場以北的部分，第2月臺保留，但是那個廣場以南的部分，第2月臺要先拆掉，到別的地方再重組。對於如何做文物保留，本席沒有意見，我現在擔心的是會不會影響到接下來的地下化工程的進度，因為之前在地下化工程施工的時候，就曾經挖到文物遺址，已經停工2年了，當時就已經延宕2年，那已經處理好了，現在又遇到了火車站站體本身第2月臺的問題，好像在前幾天有開審議，是不是這樣？"],["伍次長勝園：有。"],["林委員俊憲：審議的結論怎麼樣？對第2月臺的處理有共識嗎？現場有沒有人知道？都沒有人知道嗎？"],["紀專門委員佳伶：知道。"],["林委員俊憲：來，請回答。"],["紀專門委員佳伶：第2月臺的部分對我們來說是報告案，原來他們是希望讓它之後在原地重組，不會讓它移到其他的地方。"],["林委員俊憲：所以可以先拆除，然後在原地重組嗎？"],["紀專門委員佳伶：對。"],["林委員俊憲：所以大家跟文化界的人士已經有共識了，是不是？"],["紀專門委員佳伶：是，看審議委員會有沒有提出報告。"],["林委員俊憲：好，局長，那這樣會不會再耽誤到我們臺南市鐵路地下化的工程？"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，我想這部分對第一階段的下地通車沒有影響，也就是說，後續怎麼樣去把它重組起來……"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，是上面車站的問題。"],["楊局長正君：對，是上面車站的問題，那現在我們下方的軌道跟相關的隧道工程都在積極地進行當中。"],["林委員俊憲：好，希望我們能夠儘速如期來完成臺南市最重要的一個公共工程，就是我們的鐵路地下化。"],["楊局長正君：我們全力來努力。"],["林委員俊憲：這個也是我們賴總統在他市長任內全力推動的，你也知道，在這個過程也遇到了一些困難，但是我們都逐一克服，這個對未來整個臺南市的發展可以說是非常非常重要，像既有的舊市區，因為鐵軌分成兩邊，我們把它縫合起來，希望能夠如期完成，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好，這個沒問題。"],["林委員俊憲：文資局專門委員可以回座了。我現在要請教次長，你知不知道在今年年初也就是在過年小年夜的時候，曾經發生臺鐵列車大誤點？就是因為我們的號誌整個突然間故障、號誌整個都亂掉了，小年夜正是運輸尖峰的時候，怎麼會突然間造成這樣的大誤點？後來去查了原因，就是因為號誌出了問題，為什麼出問題？因為電纜被偷剪了，次長，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：我知道這個事情。"],["林委員俊憲：那我現在在想的就是我們的海底電纜發生多次了，應該很肯定都是中國的船隻故意的騷擾，把海底電纜給扯斷了，已經發生很多起了，前幾天還發生中國的船隻又扯斷我們的電纜，我們把人跟船押回我們臺灣港內來處理的事件。現在臺鐵的電纜被剪斷，我就很好奇，所以我去查了一下資料，臺鐵過去5年來電纜被剪斷好幾次，像在2020年就1次了，2021年也1次，從2022年開始，被偷剪電纜的次數就大幅增加，去年就被剪斷了9次，因為臺鐵也屬於國家基礎設施，就是國安設施的一部分，所以臺鐵的電纜被剪斷，就要通報國土安全辦公室，也引起了行政院的注意，次長對這個事情了解嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：我知道，跟委員報告，這個案子已經破案了，目前暫時排除有所謂國安的問題。"],["林委員俊憲：你都是用竊盜罪嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：對，主要是因為……"],["林委員俊憲：那我會擔心，不管這是不是真的竊盜罪，只要電纜被剪斷，整個交通動線就受影響，乘客的權利就受影響。"],["伍次長勝園：對，上次小年夜就是因為這個原因，所以造成我們整個大誤點。"],["林委員俊憲：第一個，我那時候懷疑的就是為什麼發生在小年夜，小年夜正是運量最繁忙的時候，在那個時候去剪，這個小偷會不會是頭腦壞掉了？因為那個絕對會被抓到嘛！就是說警方就會有破案的壓力，對不對？再來，早年在臺灣還有人偷剪電線、偷剪電纜去賣，現在很少有人在剪電纜，因為要賣給誰啦？很少人在買這個，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["林委員俊憲：那現在反而相反，現在一年發生的次數越來越多，所以我要跟臺鐵還有鐵路警察局講，今天鐵路警察局有沒有人來？沒有人來。你隨便都把它當成一般的竊案，就把它結案了，但是我們要做一些預防，因為臺鐵是國家基礎安全設施、是基礎建設之一。所以我就要請教臺鐵，像這樣電纜被剪斷在2024年已經發生了9次，幾乎每個月都會被剪斷1次，這還得了？我就請教臺鐵，你如何來因應電纜被偷剪這樣的事情？次長，局長，你們看一下，這是臺鐵回復給本席的公文，我問要如何去防止、預防或者是如何去處理電纜被偷剪，你知不知道臺鐵怎麼跟我說？臺鐵說要去貼警告標語。你再怎麼樣唬弄我，也不要給我亂寫，我是問臺鐵如何去處理現在電纜被偷剪次數暴增的問題，去年已經到9次了，我問它要怎麼處理，回復我的這個公文卻這樣寫，次長，它說要去貼警告標語，叫大家不要來偷剪，大家不要來做賊啦！"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這個說法確實是比較消極。"],["林委員俊憲：這不是消極，這是在隨便唬弄我，我是立法委員，而且我是交通委員會的委員，我問你如何處理，你跟我說你們要在圍牆貼警告標語，叫大家不要來做賊、不要偷剪電線、電纜，真的是亂來！","我再舉一個例子給你看，我去查了一下人家國外的作法，你不努力也要用功去查一下，這是英國鐵路公司的網頁，有一個頁面是專門在告訴大家他們公司要如何來應對這種電纜的竊案，可是我們臺鐵沒有任何頁面在講這個事情，可見你過去都完全不把這當一回事，但是現在1年發生9次，從原本1年1次到現在變成1年被剪斷電纜9次，而且偷電纜是很愚蠢的竊盜行為，很不容易銷贓，也沒有什麼人在買那個東西，那你也要稍微研究一下如何去防止，隨便丟一個公文給我，你給我的答復是你要去貼警告標語，這實在是很亂來。","我要再讓你參考一下英國鐵路公司是怎麼處理，第一個，他說因為有人去偷剪，所以他們用的是可以追蹤的電纜，就是你把這個剪下來就算贓物，你就很難賣掉了。第二個，因為不是每一個路段都有可能被侵入去偷剪，所以在很可能會被偷剪的地方都有裝置一些監視設備甚至感應儀器，還有它的電纜都是特殊的電纜。在國外有這樣的方法，你可以去學，而不是只貼個標語。我現在有調了你的資料，你看你去年被剪斷9次，那絕對就是延誤乘客班車的時間、讓乘客的權利受損，你自己有沒有算你一年損失多少？所以這種竊盜不是剪下來就算了，因為你有成本，你要賠人家票價，要讓人家退票，要補償乘客，你知道你一年因為竊案損失多少錢嗎？臺鐵今天有沒有來？總經理，你知道嗎？你們也沒有去計算這個。鐵路警察局今天有沒有來？因為我沒有時間了，這個事情請臺鐵給我一個答復，好不好？"],["馮總經理輝昇：好，沒有問題。"],["林委員俊憲：你如何反應或預防，萬一發生的時候，你要如何去處理，因為已經逐年增加，而且增加到不能忍受的程度了，去年被剪了9次，我現在懷疑臺鐵電纜被偷剪是不是刻意的，幾乎同一時間，從2022年開始，我們陸地上的電纜也頻繁發生被剪斷，尤其是臺鐵。你要去考量有沒有這樣的關聯性，你把每個案子都隨便當成一個竊案，就算是這樣，你也不能讓它持續，而且增加發生的次數，造成臺鐵的損失你也不處理、你也不回復，你看你給我的回復是什麼，你是總經理嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，報告委員，我們針對這個議題現在已經跟鐵路警察局有橫向聯防，他們有發現可疑的竊盜集團都會跟我們聯繫。我們現在針對可疑的地點，就是剛剛委員提到的，我們也會研議裝設攝影機來加強監控，這個部分我們會持續做出妥善的規劃。"],["林委員俊憲：那你為什麼不這麼答復我？你給我的答復是你要貼警告標語，呼籲大家不要來偷剪，呼籲大家不要當小偷。"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們內部會檢討。"],["林委員俊憲：尊重一下，好不好？"],["馮總經理輝昇：好。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝次長、謝謝局長。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝召委 我們請伍次長跟馮總經理請次長跟馮總委員好好 次長好 最近台鐵公司在交通部的考程"},{"start":21.837,"end":49.158,"text":"引發一些爭議我先請問一下這個台鐵的票箱收入佔整個台鐵的營業收入大概多少報告委員我們票箱收入佔我們營業的整個收入如果不含政府補助是79%那如果含政府補助大概是55%左右那台鐵自從這個公司化以後"},{"start":50.683,"end":54.172,"text":"一般照公司的邏輯要賺錢可是一個國營的公司應該以賺錢為目的"},{"start":59.264,"end":82.092,"text":"我問次長你覺得一個國營的鐵路公司不全然社會的責任還是在所以有些時候要配合政府的政策所以我是建議交通部在對台鐵公司做考程的時候這部分一定要納入考量"},{"start":83.132,"end":101.777,"text":"因為它跟譬如說跟中華郵政不一樣它跟這一個一些交通部所屬的這些公司啊這個在做考程的時候啊不一樣因為台鐵像現在也要承擔TPAS也要承擔各縣市的敬老愛心卡"},{"start":102.83,"end":131.392,"text":"那這個部分對台鐵來說多這些業務跟以前在台鐵局的時候這個差很多那這都給走給了雖然中央政府最後都還是給了補貼或者縣市政府給了補貼但是你說要變成做了這件事情多賺到錢其實很困難所以這塊請交通部務必在台鐵公司做考程的時候把這一條納入考量第二這個我們現在推動這個TPAS"},{"start":133.093,"end":159.743,"text":"占台鐵目前的營業收入大概多少T-BUS目前占我們的收入大概是百分之二十左右那如果占票箱收入占整體票箱收入就占我們的整個票箱收入是14%占整個票箱收入14%這一塊也是交通部也要補貼"},{"start":162.322,"end":183.694,"text":"對 這個部分其實台鐵TPAS是只收9折的票價那其餘的就是交通部還有地方政府他們有一個那個這個金流庫那台鐵公司因為執行了TPAS的計畫對台鐵的財務造成負擔還是對台鐵來說整體是好的"},{"start":188.154,"end":211.48,"text":"這個部分在台鐵的運量部分如果從整體運量我們的運量從TPAS執行以後是有持續在增加但是因為我們還有負擔社會責任就是有9折的票價所以整個就整體收入而言我們是還要承擔部分的社會責任所以站在公司的立場這個"},{"start":213.732,"end":227.21,"text":"台鐵公司去執行T-PASS各自發起責任感不感興趣嗎就剛才證實說我們還要承擔社會責任讓大家的通勤能夠更便利還有可以負擔"},{"start":227.83,"end":253.222,"text":"好 那台鐵因為公司化以後的薪水分兩塊那原來的員工 尤其是跟技術部門有關的員工我想台鐵公司也一直希望能夠把這些員工留下來那因為既然公司化 跟一般的公務體系不太一樣公務體系就是你時間到了 烤雞到了就往上升 對不對"},{"start":254.161,"end":279.065,"text":"那公司化對於比較這一個公司希望他留下來的這些人才在薪資上就台鐵公司目前的薪資結構上有沒有彈性這部分跟委員報告因為他那時候選擇的是選擇原來的資位制就是留任所以他還是適用原來的薪資這樣一個制度所以沒有彈性"},{"start":280.625,"end":295.759,"text":"可以這麼說彈性很小那可不可以把它變成有彈性一點現在我們在考慮他那個主管家級看可不可以去做中間做一些調整對 因為你現在新進的員工在技術上可能也補不上"},{"start":296.926,"end":310.499,"text":"那資深的員工可能留下來還要做傳承他時間一夠 薪水還沒去他可能就想要走這都很有可能所以在留住資深員工尤其是技術部門"},{"start":311.741,"end":333.912,"text":"那個客服部門啊 這個重要 不是 這個有沒有必要把他那麼留下來用那麼高的薪水把他留下來 就跟技術部門相比就不太一樣所以技術部門的這部分我建議你們一定要能夠把他在談 薪水上能夠有彈性是那剛剛提到這個你們的徵才啊 有時候不太容易喔"},{"start":334.656,"end":361.112,"text":"那現在台鐵公司有沒有具體跟技職體系的學校真的有具體的合作計畫也就是說他可能念高中開始 念高中開始其實就台鐵員工的一部分那台鐵介入到這個學校的授課那他高中高中念完三年之後其實就馬上上位了那台鐵派員工到學校去上課"},{"start":362.076,"end":381.565,"text":"那這些學生很快就變台鐵員工目前有沒有具體的這樣的計畫我們針對這個所謂的產學合作目前其實是有在推好像是八所的高中高中職針對這部分我們跟他們合作那這個有沒有保障"},{"start":383.11,"end":396.54,"text":"目前是只有產學合作的管道他們還是要透過考試我覺得你們應該介入他們的課程然後保障他們這樣這些學校也很好招生就是國中畢業他去讀這間高中他就叫台鐵科"},{"start":401.408,"end":421.923,"text":"台鐵科啦 要不然我告訴你台鐵科他高一級就開始在技術工開始二你們派資深的員工去做老師然後這樣訓練三年那上課實習的場域都在台鐵的維修場域在技術部門的場域三年後他就被台鐵公司的員工"},{"start":423.044,"end":434.536,"text":"像你不用訓練啊學校就幫你訓練而且你們的資深員工就剛好是老師不然你這樣有時候你們雜入這樣的產學而做啊有點在牽MOU的感覺"},{"start":435.816,"end":459.449,"text":"有點在形式上我建議這一塊他能不能跟教育部大家討論一下怎麼樣讓他能夠具體的落實最後一個問題是當時台鐵從這個政府部門變成公司化的時候台鐵公司也提出如果台鐵公司化可以提升行車安全你們要記得這個承諾那這個承諾目前達成的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":464.918,"end":476.899,"text":"目前以現在目前的數據看起來是還有很大的空間關鍵在哪裡我想安全文化的意識沒有升值"},{"start":477.247,"end":504.908,"text":"好就是說公司化那意識啊安全意識全體員工都要一起加強那這一塊就是要台鐵跟這個台鐵工會跟所有的員工尤其是領導的階層大家要一起成長一起努力否則裡面當時答應台灣社會說這個台鐵公司化行政安全會提升的當時要公司化這是很重要的關鍵"},{"start":506.149,"end":518.908,"text":"那如果沒有達成那當時公司化的承諾就是跳票所以這一塊希望台鐵公司從領導階層到最基層的員工大家一起對行車安全一起努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時37分）謝謝召委。請伍次長跟馮總經理。"],["主席：請次長跟馮總。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["王委員義川：次長，最近臺鐵公司在交通部的考成引發一些爭議，我先請問一下，臺鐵的票箱收入占整個臺鐵的營業收入大概多少？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們的票箱收入占整個營業收入，如果不含政府補助是79%；如果有含政府補助大概是55%左右。"],["王委員義川：臺鐵自從公司化以後，一般照公司的邏輯要賺錢，可是一個國營的公司應該以賺錢為目的嗎？我是問次長，你覺得一個國營的鐵路公司……"],["伍次長勝園：不全然，社會的責任還是在。"],["王委員義川：所以有些時候要配合政府的政策，我建議交通部在對臺鐵公司考成的時候，這部分一定要納入考量。譬如它跟中華郵政不一樣，跟一些交通部所屬的公司在考成的時候不一樣，因為臺鐵現在要承擔TPASS，也要承擔各縣市的敬老愛心卡，對臺鐵來說，多這些業務跟以前臺鐵局的時代差很多，這些都是多做多賠。雖然中央政府最後都還是給了補貼，或者縣市政府給了補貼，但是做了這件事情要多賺到錢其實很困難，所以請交通部務必在對臺鐵公司考成的時候，把這一塊納入考量。","第二、現在推動TPASS占臺鐵目前的營業收入大概多少？"],["馮總經理輝昇：TPASS目前占我們的收入大概是20%左右。"],["王委員義川：如果占票箱收入呢？"],["馮總經理輝昇：占整體票箱收入14%。"],["王委員義川：這一塊也是交通部要補貼？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，這個部分其實臺鐵TPASS只收9折的票價，其餘的就是交通部，還有地方政府他們有一個金流庫。"],["王委員義川：臺鐵公司因為執行了TPASS計畫，對臺鐵的財務造成負擔，還是對臺鐵來說，整體是好的？"],["馮總經理輝昇：在臺鐵的運量部分，如果從整體運量，我們的運量從TPASS執行以後是有持續在增加，但是因為我們還有負擔社會責任，就是有9折的票價，所以就整體收入而言，我們是還要承擔部分的社會責任。"],["王委員義川：好，所以站在公司的立場，臺鐵公司執行TPASS叫做歡喜做甘願受嘛！"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，就是剛才政次說的我們還要承擔社會責任，讓大家的通勤能夠更便利，還有可以負擔。"],["王委員義川：好，臺鐵因為公司化以後的薪水分兩塊，原來的員工，尤其是跟技術部門有關的員工，我想臺鐵公司也一直希望能夠把這些員工留下來。"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["王委員義川：既然公司化，就跟一般的公務體系不太一樣，公務體系就是時間到了、考績到了，就往上升，對不對？公司化對於公司比較希望留下來的這些人才，在臺鐵公司目前的薪資結構上有沒有彈性？"],["伍次長勝園：這部分跟委員報告，因為那時候選擇都是選擇原來的資位制，就是留任，所以他還是適用原來的薪資制度。"],["王委員義川：所以沒有彈性？"],["伍次長勝園：可以這麼說，彈性很小。"],["王委員義川：那可不可以把它變成有彈性一點？"],["伍次長勝園：現在我們也在考慮主管加給看中間可不可以做一些調整。"],["王委員義川：對，因為現在新進員工在技術上可能也補不上，資深的員工留下來可能還要傳承，但是時間一到，薪水也不會漲，他可能就想要走了，這都很有可能。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["王委員義川：所以在留住資深員工，尤其是技術部門的，但客服部門有沒有必要用那麼高的薪水把他留下來，跟技術部門相比就不太一樣了，所以技術部門這部分，我建議你們一定要在薪水上能夠有彈性。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["王委員義川：剛剛提到你們的徵才有時候不太容易，現在臺鐵公司有沒有跟技職體系的學校真的有具體的合作計畫？也就是說可能從念高工開始，其實就是臺鐵員工的一部分了，臺鐵介入這個學校的授課，高工念完三年之後其實就可以馬上上位，臺鐵派員工到學校去上課，這些學生很快就變臺鐵員工，目前有沒有具體的這樣的計畫？"],["伍次長勝園：我們針對所謂的產學合作，目前其實是有在推，好像是8所高中職，針對這部分我們跟他們有合作。"],["王委員義川：這個有沒有保障？"],["馮總經理輝昇：目前是只有產學合作的管道，他們還是要透過考試。"],["王委員義川：我覺得你們應該介入他們的課程，然後保障他們，這樣這些學校也很好招生。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["王委員義川：就是說國中畢業去讀這間高工，它就叫臺鐵科，比如某某高工的臺鐵科，從高一進去就開始從技術工開始學，你們派資深員工去做老師，然後這樣訓練三年，上課實習的場域都在臺鐵的維修場域，在技術部門的場域，三年後他就變成臺鐵公司的員工，這樣你們也不用訓練，學校就幫你訓練好了，而且你們的資深員工就剛好是老師，不然有時候你們砸入這樣的產學合作有點像在簽MOU的感覺，就是在形式上，我建議這一塊看能不能跟教育部大家討論一下，怎麼樣讓它能夠具體的落實。","最後一個問題是當時臺鐵從政府部門變成公司化的時候，臺鐵公司也提出，如果臺鐵公司化，可以提升行車安全，你們要記得這個承諾！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["王委員義川：這個承諾目前達成的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["伍次長勝園：以目前數據看起來是還有很大的空間。"],["王委員義川：關鍵在哪裡？"],["伍次長勝園：我想安全文化的意識沒有深植。"],["王委員義川：好，就是說公司化，安全意識全體員工都要一起加強。"],["伍次長勝園：對，應該要一起加強。"],["王委員義川：這一塊就是要臺鐵跟臺鐵工會、跟所有員工，尤其是領導階層，大家要一起成長、一起努力，否則你們當時答應臺灣社會說臺鐵公司化，行車安全會提升，這是當時要公司化很重要的關鍵，如果沒有達成，那當時公司化的承諾就是跳票，所以這一塊希望臺鐵公司從領導階層到最基層的員工，大家一起對行車安全來努力。好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時46分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","我們請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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請主席邀請吳代理董事長請那個次長"},{"start":14.673,"end":42.945,"text":"委員好吳次長早安早我們知道台鐵公司化去年是第一年公司化第一年就遇到了花蓮的強震也遇到了多個颱風的侵襲我們看到台鐵的員工在天災發生了損害之後冒險搶修讓我們交通可以趕快的恢復所以在這邊本席也感謝我們台鐵所有的員工的"},{"start":43.405,"end":69.628,"text":"辛苦可以說是冒著生命的一個危險所以在這邊本席要關心的就是說有關我們台鐵員工的這個危險津貼還有夜點費還有地域加擠這個部分因為我在去年的10月的在委員會裡面我也有關心這個相關的議題那當時部長也有回覆說會盡速來研議那現在也過了半年多了我不曉得說這個部分我們到底有沒有進度"},{"start":70.656,"end":86.75,"text":"我跟委員報告,這部分剛剛提到的所謂危險津貼夜點會第一佳績的部分最近我們已經報到部裡面,我們在跟部裡面爭取,應該我想我們加強溝通,應該會希望能夠很快就可以下來"},{"start":87.25,"end":110.484,"text":"很快大概什麼時候預計我們再跟那個部裡面再做溝通我們是已經報上去了這部分我們也希望就是說為我們這個辛苦的還有這個非常在這樣子一個危險的工作環境裡面的台鐵員工爭取應該有的福利另外我們大家也都非常的關心這個台鐵的這個"},{"start":112.245,"end":122.933,"text":"人力的一個部分因為我們台鐵肩負著交通運輸一個重責大任那這個服務品質也非常的重要當然也是牽涉到整個行車安全那我們看到目前我們截至113年底我們台鐵的員工確數仍然高達1628人 是不是"},{"start":134.361,"end":153.02,"text":"那在這個部分我不曉得說對於這樣子的一個人員沒有辦法補齊然後也在沒有辦法補齊的狀況下也有同時這個在流失的狀況所以這樣子當然對我們的經營可能會更加的一個困難所以這部分我們有沒有什麼樣的一個對策"},{"start":154.6,"end":175.312,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為第一批大概去年的三四月的時候已經招募了那第二批次也是在最近也在招募我想我們會依照目前招募的情況如果不夠的話我們再進行第三次那剛剛我這邊要特別提的可能有外界在講說那為什麼沒有人來報名"},{"start":176.492,"end":200.068,"text":"那最近我在內部討論的時候,我是跟同仁講剛剛提到的就是剛剛前面所提的危險津貼、低交易這些如果不明媒我們爭取到了,我會希望把它放到我們的招生簡章讓有報考的議員能更瞭解如果以現在我們最基層的大概是三萬六起跳"},{"start":201.257,"end":220.465,"text":"那加上這些幾個危險津貼啦這個這個偏遠地區的家籍這些啦月點會大概最高的可以到4萬4我想這部分我們會把它放到裡面讓那個有興趣的這個外界的更清楚我們的心思的一個待遇"},{"start":222.045,"end":242.123,"text":"對 次長剛剛有提到嘛 事實上我們也都有看到就是招募的狀況不理想那同時這個人才的流失也是很嚴重那剛剛次長有提到就是起薪的問題那所以我們在看說我們比較就是交通部轄下的國營事業起薪台鐵公司可以說是最低的"},{"start":242.703,"end":269.441,"text":"雖然說我們還有這個危險津貼還有夜頂費等等可是這個應該是他們這個工作的一個性質的一個額外的我覺得這個部分不能夠算在內我覺得應該去考慮整個起薪的一個部分這樣子應該才比較能夠吸引這個人才或者是說吸引這個有興趣的人可以來投入我們台鐵的服務的一個行列是不是"},{"start":269.801,"end":292.043,"text":"是這個我想剛提到的這裡面我是不知道他們這裡面的起薪的部分因為當然跟工作的性質有點關係不過如果光是以這樣的一個數據來看我想未來我們大概目前是應該大概是目前報出來的那未來我想如果有那個機會也許我們可以再考量一下"},{"start":292.717,"end":309.585,"text":"是好因為有關這個人員缺額的部分也牽涉到整個服務品質也牽涉到行車安全因為我想這個都是大家非常關心的那我們看到台鐵公司的話到今天已經屆滿一年了可是這個安全問題卻層出不窮"},{"start":313.067,"end":340.418,"text":"因為我們看到這個事故率在113年度事故數是976件比這個112年增加了202件這個增加的幅度高達26%可以說是創五年來的新高那這半年來這個陸續發生的這個事故裡面又有好幾件事沒有依照這個SOP的這樣子的一個執行程序這個就牽涉到人員教育訓練的一個部分"},{"start":341.198,"end":363.556,"text":"那因為流動率高 然後招募不到這個新的人才我想在這個教育訓練上 可能就是會有發生斷層的一個問題 或者是不足的問題我想這個對整個行車安全 是一個很大的問題跟威脅所以在這部分 不曉得這個伍次長有沒有什麼好的對策來改善這樣子的一個面臨的狀況"},{"start":364.437,"end":388.018,"text":"我想剛剛講這個半年這五次幾乎大部分我們去檢視大部分是因為人為人為因素就是沒有依照相關的SOP去做那這中間到底是他訓練隊長那個環境的不熟悉還是訓練的問題我想這部分我們後續第一個心理一定會去加強第二個考核部分我們會加強考核"},{"start":388.658,"end":397.321,"text":"那當然這個人力不足的部分我們會盡快來補足剛提到如果說我們的招募上有缺額我們會繼續再進行招募"},{"start":398.041,"end":422.746,"text":"是好我想就是我們也看到次長在你的臉書也有提到就是員工是台鐵最珍貴的資產所以我們應該也要從這個方向去思考然後能夠就是有比較好的一個條件來吸引人才留住人才然後有完善的教育訓練這樣子才能夠確保整個這個行車的一個安全然後有更好的一個服務的一個品質"},{"start":423.806,"end":450.772,"text":"所以我想就是說針對即使今天很多委員都是一直在關心的就是這個台鐵安全或者是員工的減輕他們的負擔或者是提供員工的待遇等等這個台鐵目前面臨的幾個大的一個課題我們希望就是說台鐵這邊要用心審慎的去研擬更好的一個方案對策來解決這些問題是 我們來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":326,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時29分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請伍代理董事長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：伍次長，早安。"],["伍次長勝園：早。"],["陳委員素月：我們知道臺鐵公司化，去年是第一年。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員素月：公司化第一年就遇到了花蓮的強震，也遇到了多個颱風的侵襲，我們看到臺鐵的員工在天災發生了損害之後冒險搶修，讓交通可以趕快地恢復，所以本席在這邊也感謝臺鐵所有員工的辛苦，可以說是冒著生命危險。","本席要關心的是，有關臺鐵員工的危險津貼、夜點費，還有地域加給，因為我去年10月在委員會裡面有關心這個議題，當時部長回復會儘速來研議，現在過了半年多了，這個部分到底有沒有進度？"],["伍次長勝園：剛剛提到所謂危險津貼、夜點費、地域加給的部分，最近我們已經報到部裡，正在跟部裡爭取。我們會加強溝通，希望能夠很快就可以下來。"],["陳委員素月：很快預計大概什麼時候？"],["伍次長勝園：我們再跟部裡溝通，我們已經報上去了。"],["陳委員素月：這部分我們也希望為辛苦在這樣非常危險工作環境裡面的臺鐵員工，爭取應該有的福利。"],["伍次長勝園：是，應該的。"],["陳委員素月：另外，大家也都非常關心臺鐵的人力，因為臺鐵肩負著交通運輸的重責大任，所以服務品質非常重要，當然也牽涉到整個行車安全。我們看到截至113年底，臺鐵員工缺額數仍然高達1,628人，是不是？這樣人員沒有辦法補齊，同時也在流失的狀況之下，當然會讓你們的經營更加困難，這部分你們有什麼樣的對策？"],["伍次長勝園：因為第一批大概去年三、四月已經招募了，第二批次最近也在招募，我們會依照目前招募的情況，如果不夠的話，會再進行第三次。我在這邊要特別提，外界可能有在說，為什麼沒人來報名？"],["陳委員素月：對，好像募集不理想。"],["伍次長勝園：最近在內部討論的時候，我跟同仁講，就是剛剛前面所提的危險津貼、地域加給，如果我們向部裡爭取到了，我會希望把它放到我們的招生簡章，讓有報考意願的人能更了解。如果以我們最基層的現在大概是三萬六起跳，加了危險津貼、偏遠地區加給、夜點費，最高大概可以到四萬四，我們會把這部分放到裡面，讓外界有興趣的人更清楚我們的薪資待遇。"],["陳委員素月：次長剛剛有提到，事實上，我們都有看到招募的狀況不理想，同時人才的流失也很嚴重。剛剛次長也有提到起薪的問題，所以我們比較交通部轄下的國營事業，臺鐵公司可以說是起薪最低的。雖然還有危險津貼、夜點費等等，可是這應該是他們工作性質額外的，我覺得這個部分不能夠算在內，而是應該考慮起薪，這樣才比較能夠吸引人才或者有興趣的人投入臺鐵服務的行列，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：針對剛剛提到的，我不知道他們的起薪，因為跟工作性質有點關係，不過光是以這樣的數據來看，三萬六是目前報出來的，未來如果有機會，也許我們可以再考量一下。"],["陳委員素月：好，有關人員缺額的部分，牽涉到整個服務品質，也牽涉到行車安全，都是大家非常關心的。","臺鐵公司化到今天已經屆滿1年了，可是安全問題卻層出不窮，因為我們看到事故率，113年度事故數是976件，比112年增加了202件，增加的幅度高達26%，可以說是創5年來新高。這半年來陸續發生的事故裡面，又有好幾件沒有依照SOP執行程序，這個就牽涉到人員教育訓練。因為流動率高，然後招募不到新的人才，教育訓練可能就會發生斷層的問題或者不足的問題，對於行車安全是一個很大的問題跟威脅，伍次長有什麼好的對策來改善面臨這樣的狀況？"],["伍次長勝園：剛剛講近半年這5次，我們去檢視大部分是因為人為、人員因素，就是沒有依照相關的SOP去做，這中間到底是環境的不熟悉，還是訓練的問題？我們後續針對這個部分，第一個、訓練一定會去加強，第二個、考核的部分會加強考核，當然人力不足的部分，我們會儘快來補足。剛剛提到如果招募上有缺額，我們會繼續再進行招募。"],["陳委員素月：次長在臉書也有提到，員工是臺鐵最珍貴的資產，所以應該要從這個方向去思考，能夠有比較好的條件來吸引人才、留住人才，然後有完善的教育訓練，這樣才能夠確保行車安全，有更好的服務品質。其實今天很多委員都一直在關心臺鐵的安全或者是減輕員工的負擔，又或者是提高員工的待遇等等，臺鐵目前面臨幾個大的課題，我們希望臺鐵要用心、審慎研擬更好的方案、對策來解決這些問題。"],["伍次長勝園：是，我們來努力。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請王義川委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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請我們 正是我們吳董事長 還有我們馮總經理請市長還有馮總政委好好 正是 我問這個題目台鐵董事長什麼時候產生"},{"start":29.827,"end":54.852,"text":"你說未來的事對你現在是代理嘛對我現在是代理因為我現在問你是問政策長官有在有在努力在找這個適合的人選好那現在都還沒有確定就對了好那個其實政策我們很可惜的就杜威董事長其實他蠻"},{"start":57.262,"end":79.484,"text":"聽底下的建議 其實工會給我的意見對他的離開有一點依依不捨其實他也是老台鐵所以當然這是一些所有所屬員工的一個心聲其實未來要找 他既然堅持要找"},{"start":80.697,"end":99.992,"text":"未來要找還是要像可以聽見工會聲音的董事長所以這點我特別跟我們正式要做一個建議讓部長考慮到這個問題千萬不要以顏色之分就是專長取勝"},{"start":102.694,"end":128.99,"text":"也就是用專業人才來經營台鐵公司這樣的成功率會比較高所以我特別跟政策去做一個建議現在吳董事長現在你們在做任何決策有沒有考慮因為我們台鐵有兩個工會一個企業工會一個產業工會他們的意見你們有沒有採納"},{"start":131.232,"end":156.351,"text":"工會的意見杜威的時候不要講啦就是你現在在代理董事長的部分所以我跟委員報告工會意見其實我們都有在溝通他的意見我們都會來來聽聽他的意見是怎麼樣那當然如果說有不一樣意見我們會進行溝通這個部分我們都溝通的管道很暢通吳董事長我給你提供一個意見工會有四大問題第一"},{"start":159.766,"end":180.493,"text":"維修預算不足的問題這個那個董事長聽完以後再來做回答另外就是留財待遇方案失敗的問題還有新人招募落後的問題還有人事政策錯誤的問題這四個問題董事長"},{"start":185.573,"end":207.375,"text":"總經理也可以回答到底有沒有聽得進去那我看這四個題目很簡單耶董事長 鍾經緯這四個都是為公司好的議案啊那你們為什麼他們提出來的時候你都不要聽這是什麼意思我也不知道因為這裡面四個"},{"start":208.436,"end":235.658,"text":"主題當中他沒有行司為他加薪或者為他要爭取什麼獎金等等都是為了公司經營這四個方向董事長你的看法這四個問題到底你有什麼看法剛講的預算不足我現在上任以後其實也跟到工會去跟他們談過溝通過"},{"start":237.83,"end":254.202,"text":"那我想只要他提出我們目前的預算一些急迫性的預算我們這邊都一定他講的是維修啦維修預算不足的問題啦我想有他急迫性我們一定會處理因為這涉及到安全問題嘛那招募的問題呢"},{"start":255.323,"end":283.564,"text":"招募問題我講這樣子因為現在我們台鐵公司有分兩個制度一個就是原來留任的留任就是原來自衛制的人所以他適用原來的那現在這個所謂的從人員他大概目前行政院也核定了一個新級的的一個那個薪水的一個方案那這裡面我剛看因為我們的他從人員他可以4.4個月原來的就職的部分留任人員大概只有2.5"},{"start":284.404,"end":302.257,"text":"我想這4.4就是一個機率另外最近我們在跟部裡面我們在爭取所謂的從人員的那些危險加急還有這個偏遠地區加急的部分如果這些的部分從原來的我們的起薪大概3萬6大概可以達到4萬4左右最高可以到4萬4"},{"start":302.998,"end":321.551,"text":"好了吳董我們說實在的啦 工會的意見當然我們要重視啦其實我看完這些啊還有一個最重要的我希望吳董事長要去注意就是人事政策的錯誤"},{"start":323.55,"end":348.14,"text":"這個要特別因為所謂人事政策的錯誤講快一點嘛他不是這個專長然後你們擺在這個專長這個是非常嚴重所以當然這種實力也不需要一一攤在陽光下可是我必須要讓吳董事長還有馮總經理你們要去了解在整個晉升方面不能因為啊"},{"start":349.301,"end":366.603,"text":"親疏遠離有所差別這樣的話就沒有公平競爭當然所有的員工他就無法去用賣命的心態去做我們的員工該做的事所以這個非常重要非常重要那個"},{"start":368.948,"end":396.677,"text":"來總經理我現在就是說以為台鐵國營公司化之後應該在國安因為每一次我都問到那個安全的問題那安全的問題當然我一直在拜託各位領導幹部也就是說你應該要比照高鐵的風險管理也就是風險的監控這個部分我們接下來看"},{"start":397.597,"end":403.763,"text":"我們來看一下 112年我們還是國營的時候那改為公司的話 113年為什麼他的事故本來7770件那為什麼113年又增加1009件"},{"start":421.454,"end":439.073,"text":"董事長為什麼這樣總經理你還可以回答我先講一下再請總經理補充這個部分我想跟委員報告一三因為他的有零四零二就是去年零四零二地震造成尤其是花東的部分造成真的比較大的影響"},{"start":440.29,"end":462.992,"text":"那以最近來講像這陣子我們發生過我也不曉得為什麼會車子會從平台開到我的軌道上因為這樣導致我雙向的都變成沒辦法通影響我一千多分鐘這我想對我們來講都是一個很大的問題扣除這些應該是跟原來可能跟去年應該是應該要更進步啦"},{"start":465.294,"end":492.522,"text":"你公司化之後有很多事情就像我們下午要幫你們鬆綁了這些有關法令的限制這些等等基本上我們都支持嘛但是你不能公司化以後比國營化的時候因為國營化它法令限制比較多嘛那公司化以後它依照公司化的經營那範圍會比較大所以我還是希望最後一個"},{"start":493.442,"end":521.131,"text":"我想特別要提醒董事長跟總經理也就是應安會給我們台鐵公司的應安改善的問題你們都只有做半套喔做半套這點我要提醒啊董事長就是公司的安全就是客戶的平安所以你們不能因為啊就是這個"},{"start":522.811,"end":539.391,"text":"應安會給你們的東西你們都遲遲不改進這對理科是沒有保障的所以我還是希望董事長跟總經理要針對這些問題啊特別要去做一些適度的改進那當然我們也希望"},{"start":541.573,"end":555.383,"text":"公司化之後當然範圍比較寬那也希望著重在旅客安全跟我們的運安安全的方面要去投入更多的改善那我憑良心講"},{"start":556.738,"end":582.442,"text":"我從來不做台鐵那我為了這個事情我一直去做台鐵那做台鐵主要是試看看你們有沒有改進確實多部分的班次你們說做到準時的這個問題所以我還是要勉勵啊特別勉勵我們吳董事長還有馮總經理特別要去註解第一"},{"start":582.782,"end":596.179,"text":"公會的問題第二該改進的要改進這點我特別拜託兩位可以做到這樣對理科安全平安才會有所幫助好不好這是我們應該做的好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（10時19分）主席，請政次伍董事長，還有馮總經理。"],["主席：請次長，還有馮總。"],["伍次長勝園：召委好。"],["林委員國成：政次，我問這個題目，臺鐵董事長什麼時候產生？"],["伍次長勝園：你說未來的是嗎？"],["林委員國成：對，你現在是代理嘛？"],["伍次長勝園：對，我現在是代理。"],["林委員國成：我現在問你是問政次。"],["伍次長勝園：長官有在努力找適合的人選。"],["林委員國成：好，那現在都還沒有確定就對了。政次，對於杜微董事長，我們其實覺得很可惜，他滿聽底下人的建議，工會給我的意見是，對他的離開有一點依依不捨。其實他也是老臺鐵，這當然是所有所屬員工的心聲，他既然堅持要走，未來要找還是要找可以聽見工會聲音的董事長，這點我要特別跟政次建議，讓部長考慮到這個問題，千萬不要有顏色之分而要以專長取勝，也就是要用專業人才來經營臺鐵公司，這樣的成功率會比較高，所以我要特別跟政次做個建議。"],["伍次長勝園：是，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：伍董事長，現在你們在作任何決策，有沒有考慮……因為我們臺鐵有兩個工會，一個是企業工會，一個是產業工會，他們的意見你們有沒有採納？"],["伍次長勝園：工會的意見……"],["林委員國成：杜微的時候就不講了，就講你現在代理董事長的部分。"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，工會的意見我們其實都有在溝通，他們的意見我們都會聽，當然，如果有不一樣的意見，我們會進行溝通，這個部分我們溝通的管道都很暢通。"],["林委員國成：伍董事長，我給你提供一個意見，工會有四大問題：第一，維修預算不足的問題，這個董事長聽完以後再來回答；另外就是留才待遇方案失敗的問題；還有新人招募進度落後的問題；還有人事政策錯誤的問題。對於這四個問題，董事長，總經理也可以回答，到底有沒有聽得進去？我看這四個題目很簡單耶！董事長、總經理，這四個都是為公司好的議案啊！你們在他們提出來的時候為什麼都不聽聽？這是什麼意思？我也不知道，因為在這裡面的四個主題當中，並沒有循私要求加薪，或者是要爭取什麼獎金什麼等等，都是為了公司經營。對這四個方向，董事長，你對這四個問題的看法到底是什麼？"],["伍次長勝園：剛剛講的預算不足，我上任以後其實也到工會跟他們談過、溝通過，我想只要他們提出目前一些急迫性的預算，我們這邊都一定會……"],["林委員國成：他們講的是維修預算不足的問題。"],["伍次長勝園：都一樣，包括所有維修都在內。"],["林委員國成：對啦！"],["伍次長勝園：這個我想，有它的急迫性，我們一定會處理，因為這涉及到安全的問題。"],["林委員國成：那招募的問題、留才的問題呢？"],["伍次長勝園：招募的問題我想是這樣子，因為現在臺鐵公司有分兩個制度，一個是原來留任的，留任的就是原來採資位制的人，所以他適用原來的；現在所謂的從業人員，目前行政院大概核定了一個薪水的方案，我剛剛看這裡面，我們同仁可以拿4.4個月，原來的舊制、留任的人員大概只能拿2.5，我想這4.4就是一個激勵。","另外，我們最近在跟部裡面爭取從業人員的危險加給，還有偏遠地區加給的部分，如果有這些從原來的起薪3萬6,000，最高大概可以達到4萬4,000左右。"],["林委員國成：伍董，我們說實在的，工會的意見我們當然要重視，其實我看完這些，還有一個最重要的，我希望伍董事長要去注意，就是人事政策的錯誤，這個要特別注意。因為所謂人事政策的錯誤，講壞一點，他不是這個專長，然後你們擺在這個專長，這個就非常嚴重。當然這種實力也不須要一一攤在陽光下，可是我必須要讓伍董事長還有馮總經理去瞭解，在整個晉升方面，不能因為親疏遠近而有所差別，否則這樣就沒有公平競爭。當然，所有的員工就無法用賣命的心態去做員工該做的事，所以這個非常重要。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["林委員國成：總經理，我現在以為臺鐵國營公司化之後，應該在國安……因為每一次我都問到安全的問題，對於安全的問題，當然，我一直在拜託各位領導幹部，也就是說，你應該要比照高鐵的風險管理，也就是對風險的監控。這個部分，我們接下來看一下，112年還是國營，113年改為公司，但為什麼它的事故件數卻從本來的777件，到113年又增加到1,009件？董事長，為什麼會這樣？總經理也可以回答。"],["伍次長勝園：我先講一下，再請總經理補充。這個部分，我想跟委員報告，113年因為有發生去年0402的地震，尤其是花東的部分造成了比較大的影響。以最近來講，像前一陣子我們發生過，我也不曉得車子為什麼會從平交道開到我的軌道上，因為這樣導致我們雙向都變成沒有辦法通，影響了我一千多分鐘，這個對我們來講，我想都是一個很大的問題。"],["林委員國成：好，那個……"],["伍次長勝園：扣除這些，去年應該是跟前年差不多。"],["林委員國成：不是啦，應該要更進步啦！"],["伍次長勝園：是，這當然是我們要去努力的。"],["林委員國成：你公司化之後，有很多事情，就像我們下午要幫你們鬆綁的這些相關法令的限制，這些基本上我們都支持嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["林委員國成：但是你不能公司化以後比國營的時候……因為國營的法令限制比較多，公司化以後，它依照公司化的經營，那個範圍會比較大，所以我還是希望……","最後一個，我想要特別提醒董事長跟總經理，也就是運安會給臺鐵公司運安改善的問題，你們都只有做半套，這點我要提醒董事長，公司的安全就是客戶的平安，所以你們不能因為這個是運安會給你們的東西，你們就遲遲不改進，這對旅客是沒有保障的，所以我還是希望董事長跟總經理要針對這些問題特別做一些適度地改進。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["林委員國成：當然，我們也希望公司化之後，當然範圍比較寬，也希望要著重在旅客安全跟運安方面，要投入更多的改善。我憑良心講，我從來不坐臺鐵，但我為了這個事情，一起去坐臺鐵，坐臺鐵主要是試看看你們有沒有改進。確實，多部分的班次，你們說有做到準時的問題，所以我還是要特別勉勵伍董事長，還有馮總經理要特別注重，第一、工會的問題；第二、該改進的要改進，這點我要特別拜託兩位可以做到，這樣對旅客安全、平安才會有所幫助，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是，這是我們應該做的。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，等一下王義川質詢完畢，休息10分鐘。","現在請陳素月委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席有請我們這個現在變董事長 吳董跟次長請次長次長就請教一下我們現在剛剛這個台鐵啦台鐵的一個票價它的一個幅度它的現在進度實施的日期確定沒有"},{"start":30.68,"end":43.961,"text":"跟委員報告我想這部分因為行政已經核定了大概我們預估什麼時候實施6月23日目前一定是6月23日要調整6月份對6月份"},{"start":45.956,"end":71.218,"text":"其實我們當然看到每一次任何費用要調帳的時候我們勢必會有一些這個民怨產生啦但對台鐵幾十年票價沒有這個調過然後大家又對你的安全包括你的新車包括你的這個革新有很多期待那這一次我在坊間聽到的當然我們有些民怨肯定是有"},{"start":71.798,"end":90.116,"text":"但我覺得對於你們一個調帳的這個部分民眾更在意說他的錢用到哪裡去了再來就是說這樣可以促成你什麼樣的一個革新安全怎麼樣去提升我相信這個部分在台鐵也有這樣的一個認知吧是有好"},{"start":92.197,"end":107.963,"text":"錢用到哪裡去這是一個感受的問題你自己的每天的財務報表年度的部分只有你自己的看到民眾的一個感受我就覺得不管是台鐵交通部甚至現在代理董事長你們真的要去注意這個問題市長請問一下"},{"start":111.877,"end":138.016,"text":"這個紀念燈光八千萬 超過八千萬主任你是不是事前知情 還是推手之一這之前是有台鐵局 台鐵公司在處理的我是 大概是當天知道的八千多萬 但是我知道報紙出來 你跟我們一樣 報紙出來你才知道不是 那個隧道燈光我知道有做這個隧道燈光但是那個價錢是哪一天才知道"},{"start":139.09,"end":163.437,"text":"好那接下來是不是 台鐵馮總這個因為最主要是這樣第一個8000多萬這個是經費讓我們所有的人民感覺是怎麼會相對這麼高第二個是他這個燈光不是每天開大概按照你們的規劃每一年的4月2號開到4月6號就一年365天營業5天"},{"start":166.718,"end":182.986,"text":"那我就請教一下這個總經理來回答了那你這個部分為什麼不每天開會不會造成什麼平常列車的一個什麼樣的一個影響為什麼不每天開你說一下包委員今天要做回應第一點是剛才說設置其實在"},{"start":183.746,"end":207.706,"text":"在112年的過程中我們跟家屬討論好幾次就包括要設一個紀念碑、牆還有地景的一個形式那過程中因為還涉及到這個是太魯閣國家公園的一個保育地區所以也不適合做大量的一些設施所以最後才家屬有提出來說那用光影的方式來紀念所以我問你為什麼不每天開啦一年只能開五天"},{"start":208.166,"end":234.125,"text":"好 這個前面有說明 第二個是說開放的啟用時間 主要這個光影紀念燈光 隧道紀念燈光 它目的是在在追思 然後在反省讓台鐵可以反省 讓社會大眾能夠這個看到這個燈光 能夠再提醒警惕台鐵繼續完成安全改革所以基於這個目的 所以在選定在事故發生的4月2號為期5天的時間"},{"start":236.546,"end":259.739,"text":"會不會造成行車安全上面的一些顧慮對在過程中其實在決定這個用隧道紀念燈光我們也經過充分討論我們所有相關部門包括機務的部門跑行車的部門都有做討論會不會對行車的安全整體如果每天每台列車都開的話整體評估會不會對於你們火車行車的安全是降低還是提升"},{"start":261.18,"end":287.037,"text":"我們是盡量避免他對司機員行車的影響所以那個燈光是在我們駕駛艙過去以後才會開始起你花了八千萬是第一個問題第二個問題是說你採用一種降低可能降低行車安全的方式來紀念一場非常慘的行車的事故我覺得對於往生者傷亡者的紀念"},{"start":288.71,"end":312.228,"text":"對於我們現在家屬的安慰最大安慰是什麼就是台鐵的革新跟安全體能就這兩項而已就這兩項你現在用一個開燈可能會造成不管是司機員反光或者因為光太亮如果有異物進入的時候不易發現你用減損安全的方式來紀念我個人覺得錢是一個問題我是覺得蠻大的一個諷刺"},{"start":316.345,"end":341.172,"text":"第二個 這也是你們台鐵第一次在紀念這樣的一個事故我是覺得值得紀念但是你們第一次採用直接在火車的軌道 隧道 行車路線上去擺設 設計這個紀念這是很恐怖的二 我們普悠瑪 普悠瑪事件也是"},{"start":342.179,"end":361.921,"text":"很糟糕啊在哪紀念呢你們都是異地嘛去台東火車站前面的紀念公園你們現在擺到軌道中啊我跟你講要不要人去維修要不要回修你說都沒事反光可以忍過看不到衣物那就每天在比運氣然後再來呢"},{"start":362.742,"end":375.033,"text":"什麼時候要去維修呢肯定要維修嘛不然隔一年這五天怎麼會亮呢誰進這隧道維修他要不要開機具進去每一個都是安全風險的因子啊"},{"start":376.601,"end":404.649,"text":"我真的是覺得你們在普悠瑪的一個事故花了836萬836萬在這個異地在台東的一個車站前面建那我不知道為什麼我跟你講不要扯到家屬家屬說換一種敬念碑的方式並沒有說你一定要用燈光說要用燈光並沒有說要花8000萬花2000萬不行嗎這是你們設計你們後面的一個制度啦"},{"start":406.874,"end":430.115,"text":"我想這個時間不夠啦 最後我也講 因為你們兩個監理單位不同那剛剛第一件事你們自己去思考 監理單位不同 裁發標準不一樣正好112年9月之前 是我們當時的伍聖元你當鐵道局的局長 你現在是次長那我們現在楊振軍是現任鐵道局的 接任你的一個局長我覺得很奇怪你知道嗎"},{"start":430.936,"end":438.079,"text":"那台鐵一直每天開每天開都不變問題大到小小都有結果奇怪了在112年9月11號以前居然監理單位沒有裁罰過"},{"start":443.373,"end":466.528,"text":"你知道嗎 即使在110年的時候太魯閣出軌 甚至更早的時候普庸馬我們當時的監理單位居然沒有開罰我們調資料沒有開罰發生什麼大事都是小事只要蓋得住 掩得住 藏得住都是小事但是我們看到112年9月11號之後是因為楊局長你上任之後這個革新勵志嗎 還是怎樣 我不懂啊"},{"start":468.665,"end":481.923,"text":"連續17個月開了12件那我覺得這個你去研究吧是以前太混了還是太認真了還是台鐵越變越差為什麼 什麼原因但是我最後一件事我真的要提醒你們"},{"start":483.124,"end":497.295,"text":"很多常在細節你現在是看小事一個小的裂縫哪天變成大裂縫的時候你們來不及你看看這12條裁罰的一個理由啊你請問一下注意看第三跟第五淺藍色標示那個"},{"start":499.4,"end":516.706,"text":"就是你們規定要九冊結果未實施九冊也可以上去開那是什麼原因我是想不通啦到底為什麼這麼鬆散當然這112年的現在倒過去就罰那接下來呢有六件事情用紅色底的這個標示全部都是"},{"start":518.819,"end":536.079,"text":"體檢不合格的人上去運物站值班站長或者執行行車工作他就不合格我們陸海空相關的有一些職業人員你必須經過體檢因為他有一定的公共的責任車上幾百人"},{"start":537.3,"end":546.323,"text":"結果我看都高雄站我不知道在肯定誰知道哪一個司機員哪個體檢過哪一個體檢不過只有內部知道但你內部再怎麼鬥或者有什麼問題剛剛提的是對的而且鐵道局也下去去確認你是不合格體檢不合格的人不斷的去這個你覺得是不是不應該"},{"start":564.369,"end":581.052,"text":"不適任體檢不適合的人不斷上去 總經理你答體檢不合格我們是不能派任擔任不能派任為什麼派了呢我們現在都有特別按照鐵路法的相關規定我們體檢合格的人員才會擔任執行官"},{"start":582.253,"end":599.211,"text":"第二十二項是一百一四年才發日期當然你發生日期是一百一十二年我最後也是希望鐵道局去研究一下你開個罰單要延遲兩年去檢驗現在一百一三年都沒問題嗎一張罰單一百一四年都沒問題嗎我覺得你這個東西要立竿見影 次長"},{"start":601.613,"end":619.284,"text":"督導一下有問題輔導期之後你說三個月對不對四個月你罰單就要開出來為什麼讓他公司能夠有這個依據內部一個懲處嘛像高雄站發生這麼嚴重的事這麼多次他的管理單位他的高層發生一次你處理"},{"start":621.546,"end":645.345,"text":"義務員 刺激員 或是那個人發生兩次基層的阻管 發生四五次 五六次如果你們再擺爛 我跟你講發生大事 我覺得是大家不願意看到的能不能市長好好去督導一下我跟委員報告 鐵路法是在112年修訂的那剛剛提到那些 其實我現在要求鐵道局他針對台鐵的所謂的退行"},{"start":646.752,"end":660.75,"text":"耗資冒進這些要加強來處分也就是講白一點就是裁罰如果違反這個規定這是最基本的也就是說你的燈號沒有依照燈號去做這是很基本的所以這部我已經要求鐵道局這個要來嚴格執行"},{"start":662.403,"end":681.295,"text":"好 希望鐵道局能夠加快這種從看到這個事件到最後開罰因為你們在處理我們調資料也沒有 對不對到底113年發生什麼事到現在我調不到但我覺得這不好啦你委員也是好心在幫你們去push這件事情抱歉 耽誤很多時間 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時7分）謝謝主席，有請伍董事長跟次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["魯委員明哲：次長，請教一下。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：剛剛關於臺鐵，臺鐵票價的幅度，現在進度、實施的日期確定沒有？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，我想這部分因為行政院已經核定了，大概我們……"],["魯委員明哲：預估什麼時候實施？"],["伍次長勝園：目前預定是6月23日要調整。"],["魯委員明哲：6月份。"],["伍次長勝園：對，6月份。"],["魯委員明哲：當然我們看到每一次任何費用要調漲的時候，勢必會有一些民怨產生，但臺鐵幾十年票價沒有調過，然後大家又對你的安全，包括你的新車、包括你的革新有很多期待，這一次我在坊間聽到的，當然民怨肯定是有，但我覺得對於你們調漲的這個部分，民眾更在意它的錢用到哪裡去了？再來就是這樣可以促成你什麼樣的一個革新、安全怎麼樣提升，我相信在臺鐵也有這樣的認知吧？"],["伍次長勝園：是，有。"],["魯委員明哲：好，錢用到哪裡去？這是一個感受的問題，你每天的財務報表，年度的部分，你自己都看到了，民眾的感受，我覺得不管是臺鐵、交通部，甚至現在代理董事長，你們真的要去注意這個問題。次長，請問一下這個紀念燈光斥資超過8,000萬，你是不是事前知情，還是推手之一？"],["伍次長勝園：這之前是由臺鐵公司在處理的，我大概也是當天知道，八千多萬，但是我……"],["魯委員明哲：你跟我們一樣，報紙出來你才知道？"],["伍次長勝園：不是，那個隧道燈光我知道，有做這個隧道燈光，但那個價錢是那一天才知道。"],["魯委員明哲：好。接下來臺鐵總經理，最主要是這樣，第一個，八千多萬，這個經費讓所有人民感覺怎麼會相對那麼高？第二個是這個燈光不是每天開，按照你們的規劃，每一年的4月2號開到4月6號，一年365天營業5天，那我就請教一下，請總經理來回答，你這個部分為什麼不每天開呢？會不會造成平常列車什麼樣的影響呢？為什麼不每天開？你說一下。"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，簡要做回應，第一點是剛才說的設置，其實在112年的過程中，我們跟家屬討論好幾次，包括要設一個紀念碑牆，還有地景的一個形式，過程中因為還涉及到這個是太魯閣國家公園的保育地區，所以也不適合做大量的一些設施，最後家屬有提出來說那用光影的方式來紀念。"],["魯委員明哲：我問你的問題是為什麼不每天開，一年只能開5天？"],["馮總經理輝昇：第二個是開放、啟用的時間，主要這個光影紀念燈光、隧道紀念燈光的目的是在追思，然後在反省，讓臺鐵可以反省，讓社會大眾看到這個燈光能夠再提醒、警惕臺鐵繼續完成安全改革，所以基於這個目的，選定在事故發生的4月2號為期5天的時間。"],["魯委員明哲：會不會造成行車安全上面的一些顧慮？"],["馮總經理輝昇：其實決定用隧道紀念燈光，我們也經過充分討論，我們所有相關部門，包括機務的部門、行車的部門都有做討論。"],["魯委員明哲：會不會對行車的安全整體……如果每天每一臺列車都開的話，整體評估對於你們火車行車的安全是降低還是提升？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們是儘量避免它對司機員行車的影響，所以那個燈光是在我們駕駛艙過去以後才會開始……"],["魯委員明哲：你花了8,000萬，是第一個問題。第二個問題是你採用一種可能降低行車安全的方式，來紀念一場非常慘的行車事故。我覺得對於往生者、傷亡者的紀念，對於我們現在家屬最大的安慰是什麼？就是臺鐵的革新跟安全提升，就這兩項而已，就這兩項！你現在用一個開燈，可能會造成不管是司機員反光或者因為光太亮，如果有異物進入的時候不易發現，你用減損安全的方式來紀念，我個人覺得錢是一個問題，我是覺得滿大的一個諷刺。第二個，這也是你們臺鐵第一次在紀念這樣的一個事故，我是覺得值得紀念，但是你們第一次採用直接在火車的軌道、隧道、行車路線上去擺設、設計這個紀念，這是很恐怖的。","我們的普悠瑪事件也是很糟糕啊！在哪紀念呢？你們都是異地嘛！去臺東火車站前面的紀念公園。但你們現在擺到軌道中，我跟你講，要不要人去maintain？要不要維修？你說都沒事，反光可以忍過，看不到異物，那就是每天在比運氣。然後再來呢？什麼時候要去維修呢？肯定要維修嘛！不然隔一年的5天怎麼會亮呢？誰進這隧道維修？他要不要開機具進去？每一個都是安全風險的因子。我真的是覺得你們在普悠瑪的事故花了836萬，在異地的臺東車站前面建，那我不知道為什麼……我跟你講，不要扯到家屬，家屬說換一種紀念碑的方式，並沒有說你一定要用燈光，說要用燈光，並沒有說要花8,000萬，花2,000萬不行嗎？這是你們設計，你們後面的一個制度。","我想時間不夠了，剛剛第一件事你們自己去思考。最後我要講，因為你們兩個監理單位不同，裁罰標準不一樣，正好112年9月之前是伍勝園你當鐵道局的局長，你現在是次長，那現在的楊正君是現任鐵道局接任你的局長，我覺得很奇怪你知道嗎？臺鐵一直每天開、每天開都不變，問題大大小小都有，結果奇怪了，在112年9月11號以前居然監理單位沒有裁罰過，你知道嗎？即使在110年的時候，太魯閣號出軌，甚至更早的時候普悠瑪，我們當時的監理單位居然沒有開罰，我們調資料沒有開罰，發生什麼大事都是小事，只要蓋得住、掩得住、藏得住，都是小事。但是我們看到112年9月11號之後，是因為楊局長你上任之後革新立志嗎？還是怎樣？我不懂啊！連續17個月開了12件，那我覺得這個你去研究嘛！是以前太混了，還是現在太認真了，還是臺鐵越變越差，為什麼？什麼原因？","但是我最後一件事真的要提醒你們，很多事是藏在細節，你現在看是一個小的裂縫，哪天變成大裂縫的時候，你們就來不及，你看看這12條裁罰的理由，請你注意看一下第3跟第5，淺藍色標示的那個，你們規定要酒測，結果未實施酒測也可以上去開，那是什麼原因我是想不通啦！到底為什麼那麼鬆散？當然這是112年的，現在倒過去去罰。那接下來有6件事情，用紅色底的標示，全部都是體檢不合格的人上去運務段值班站長或者執行行車工作，他就不合格，我們陸海空相關有一些職業人員，你必須經過體檢，因為他有一定的公共責任，車上幾百人耶！結果我看都是高雄站，誰知道哪一個司機員體檢過、哪一個體檢不過？只有你內部知道，但你內部再怎麼鬥或者有什麼問題，他提的是對的啊！而且鐵道局也下去確認啊！你讓體檢不合格的人不斷的去……你覺得是不是不應該？體檢不適任的人不斷上去……沒關係，總經理你答，你看了感覺怎麼樣？"],["伍次長勝園：報告委員，確實體檢不合格，我們是不能派任擔任……"],["魯委員明哲：不能派任，為什麼派了呢？"],["伍次長勝園：我們現在都有特別按照鐵路法的相關規定，我們體檢合格的人員才會擔任值勤工作。"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，第12項的裁罰日期是114年，當然你的發生日期是112年，我最後也是希望鐵道局去研究一下，你開個罰單要延遲2年去檢驗，現在113年都沒問題嗎？一張罰單……114年都沒問題嗎？我覺得你這個東西要立竿見影啊！次長，督導一下，有問題，輔導期之後，你說3個月，對不對？4個月你罰單就要開出來，為什麼？讓公司它能夠有這個依據做內部懲處嘛！像高雄站發生這麼嚴重的事這麼多次，它的管理單位、它的高層，發生一次，你處理運務員、司機員或是那個人；發生2次處理基層的主管；發生4、5次，5、6次，如果你們再擺爛，我跟你講發生大事，我覺得是大家不願意看到的，次長能不能好好去督導一下？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，鐵路法是在112年修訂的，那剛剛提到的那些，其實我現在要求鐵道局針對臺鐵所謂的退行、號誌冒進這些要加強來處分，講白點也就是裁罰，如果有違反這個規定，這是最基本的，也就是說如果你沒有依照燈號去做，這是很基本的，所以這部分我已經要求鐵道局要來嚴格執行。"],["魯委員明哲：好，也希望鐵道局能夠加快這種從看到這個事件到最後開罰的期程，因為你們在處理過程中，我們調資料也沒有，對不對？到底113年發生什麼事，到現在我調不到，但我覺得這不好啦！委員也是好心在幫你們去push這件事情。抱歉耽誤很多時間，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請林國成委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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流程大概是每年4月的時候先由交通部來訂定票價的一個基準然後高鐵去調整這個票價送到董事會經理有同意再送到立法院來做相關的備查流程應該是這樣沒錯的那我們在"},{"start":57.038,"end":71.513,"text":"2015年的時候其實交通委員會就有決議這個票價是要送到立法院來備查那為什麼會有2015年這樣一個議題因為在2013年的時候高鐵有第一次的票價調整"},{"start":72.754,"end":89.369,"text":"那時候在2013年我就提出高鐵的問題是運量而不是票價的這個問題那到2015年也因為財改以及高鐵的營運狀況停滯不前所以又調回原本現在這個票價"},{"start":91.311,"end":106.105,"text":"我們2024年跟2025年我知道我們交通部依照台灣地區消費者物價的總指數訂定的基本匯率是每公里4.55億元"},{"start":108.047,"end":128.9,"text":"如果按照這個匯率啊台北到高雄的單程票價它累積有230元的這樣的一個漲價的空間那當然啦我們在2013年我提出這個高鐵的議題啊其實就是它是醞釀的問題而不是票價的問題那高鐵"},{"start":134.533,"end":162.092,"text":"針對調漲票價與否他主要有內部成本的思考以及外部就是相關的社會經濟環境的問題以及相關的供需以及市場競爭的這樣的一個狀況來做調整那其實我們來看是否有調整的空間呢我們來看高鐵的運量跟營收其實都是有增加的"},{"start":163.153,"end":191.011,"text":"高鐵旅客的總人次在2019年的時候總人次是達到他的總人次是達到達到6700萬以上那6億啦 應該是6億人次以上那高鐵的旅客我們來看他的日均人次啦"},{"start":193.712,"end":212.789,"text":"六千 這個我們來大家來做確認高鐵旅客的日均人次在2019年的時候是達到18萬人次那2025年2月的時候他的日均人次達到22萬4千人次以上"},{"start":213.47,"end":220.093,"text":"那高鐵的營收增加2023年的營業增加營業收入是498億2024年他的營業收入是531億他的營運"},{"start":226.857,"end":240.301,"text":"他的旅客人士他的收入都有明顯的增加我認為是應該要維持原票價那今年我們就不予同意來做這樣的一個調整這是我的建議來市長簡單說明一下來說明一下確實剛剛就如這邊所提的"},{"start":244.082,"end":271.025,"text":"它運量一直其實在提升比如說以昨天的那個高鐵運量它又32萬比剛講的22本來2月的時候就24萬昨天又創了大概32萬就算是很高我講的是日軍人士你講的是廉價期間的這個人士對對我意思說它的其實它不斷的運量不斷的在增加那目前我們確實我個人我也覺得不太適合去談票價調漲的問題"},{"start":272.446,"end":294.164,"text":"也許過兩年之後那新車進來以後那新車進來以後它一些成本可能會一些增加那時候才是一個比較適合來談票價調整的一個時機好 這個是我們對於高鐵票價調整與否的一個基本的態度那我們接下來來談相關的高雄計畫就是鐵路地下化"},{"start":295.489,"end":303.436,"text":"它原本就是高雄計畫、鳳山計畫以及左營計畫它的總經費是達到998億元那統稱為高雄計畫那這個計畫其實在目前我們來看它相關的這個經費的議題它的總經費是998億那其實到114年"},{"start":320.717,"end":324.721,"text":"累計總共編了803億元那其實計畫還有195億元那這個我認為鐵道局應該繼續來辦理修正計畫的一個展延這個期程"},{"start":337.575,"end":352.824,"text":"讓這個經費剩餘的195億還能夠做充分的一個運用那因為我們來看高雄的這個鐵路地下化當然第一階段都已經正式的通車新增加7個通勤車站"},{"start":353.752,"end":375.431,"text":"然後我們也做了綠園道 相關的立體化設施 路橋的拆除 地下道的填平都已經陸續的完成但是還有很多計畫我們還要繼續的去做改善跟充實例如我們的高雄車站與周邊道路的相關的連通"},{"start":379.022,"end":394.838,"text":"這個楊局長也應該知道我們高雄車站經過一個九如路另外一邊是建國路要到路的另外一邊要橫越馬路我認為應該要做地下通道如果地下通道要做商店街的話"},{"start":397.579,"end":424.878,"text":"地下街這樣做商業營運的話是必須要跟高雄市政府來做協調跟處理如果單單是通道的話我們鐵道局就可以去做規劃就可以去做那車站也應該要更智慧化的這樣一個提升那還有車站的一個界面的整合包含這個跟捷運黃線還有相關的這種聯通等等都必須要去"},{"start":425.658,"end":453.747,"text":"下一步必須要去進行這個施作那還有高鐵南延的這個計畫到高雄車站相關的介面整合跟先前的工程也都必須要先做處理來我希望這個經費能夠繼續展現來說明一下是跟委員報告謝謝委員的這個提示確實剛剛講的高雄計畫目前大概還有剩錢到他計畫到114那現在我們大概請鐵道局要進行所謂的修正計畫因為"},{"start":455.367,"end":474.215,"text":"從這裡面剛剛提到其實周邊還有很多事情可以去做包括像現在我們的高鐵要進到高雄車站跟過去已經不太一樣所以這整個環境必須要再做一個整合我想這個後面我們大概會依照剛剛委員這樣所一個提議我們會去做辦理修正計畫"},{"start":475.375,"end":488.338,"text":"另外針對高鐵的一個年度的旅客總人次我在這邊做個補充更正2019年的總人次是6741萬人2024年的總人次達到7825萬人次以上大陝人次是越來越多最後我簡單問一下我們的台鐵"},{"start":504.093,"end":532.795,"text":"北回的這種啊改善的初步評估計畫就是所謂的轉股計畫因為啊和平跟崇德之間我多次在交通委員會要求做改善短期的我們針對落實偵測啦邊坡的這種處理啦加強他的安全的韌性這是短期的計畫那交通部在我們的要求之下也進行了這樣的一個初步的評估計畫我知道大概有兩個方案第一個方案啊"},{"start":533.375,"end":558.667,"text":"是在仿造這種攔回在海濱設置高架設置高架一個替代方案另外一個就是走比較內陸是做相關的隧道的一個不管是民隧道或是挖隧道來做一個安全改善的這樣的工程那這個評估報告1月的時候已經有送到交通部了對不對來說明一下目前的期程"},{"start":559.187,"end":571.713,"text":"沒有 這個大概是還在台鐵內部的一個評估啦剛剛提到這是一個很初步的一個評估你跟台鐵對一下1月的時候有一個初步的報告沒有 沒有送有送到這邊 現在在做審查啦"},{"start":572.894,"end":589.607,"text":"沒有那你們現在目前的進度是什麼先要剛剛講這個是一個很初步的評估裡面剛剛提到大概有幾個方案去做一些探討那這邊牽涉到所謂戰場的問題還有第一個如果是走邊這個海邊的部分就是說高架橋的部分當然有場戰的問題還有安全的問題"},{"start":592.95,"end":612.503,"text":"還有他的強度的這樣一個韌性的維護還有相關的生態的衝擊等等這都是相關的這個在評估裡面其實市長你都已經初步有知道這樣的一個初步的內容我就說1月的時候就已經有送到交通部初步的東西有讓你們去了解"},{"start":613.683,"end":635.797,"text":"那這個我就不跟你爭論啦那相關的資料我等一下給你看那相關的有關於台鐵票價問題就已經確認今年就不予討論啦是不是這樣票價我們因為行政已經通過我想我們大概還是不是我講的是高鐵高鐵不會高鐵不會高鐵剛剛講的目前還沒有接到通知會議會計條長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":208,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時56分）謝謝許智傑召委，請一下次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：次長好。我們先來討論一下高鐵票價是否調漲的議題，每年4月交通部會依臺灣地區消費者總指數來訂定高鐵的基本費率，它的流程大概是每年4月的時候先由交通部來訂定一個票價基準，然後高鐵去調整票價送到董事會，經過同意再送到立法院來做相關的備查，流程應該是這樣沒錯。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們在2015年的時候，其實交通委員會就有決議，這個票價要送到立法院來備查，為什麼2015年會有這樣一個議題呢？因為在2013年的時候，高鐵第一次調整票價，那時候我就提出高鐵的問題是運量而不是票價，到2015年也因為財改及高鐵的營運狀況停滯不前，所以又調回原本現在的票價。2024年和2025年我知道我們交通部依照臺灣地區消費者物價總指數，訂定的基本費率是每公里4.551元，按照這個費率，臺北到高雄的單程票價累積有230元的漲價空間。當然啦，我在2013年提出高鐵的問題是運量的問題，而不是票價的問題。那高鐵針對調漲票價與否，主要根據內部成本的思考，以及外部相關的社會經濟環境、供需及市場競爭狀況來做調整，是否有調整的空間呢？我們來看高鐵的運量跟營收，其實都是有增加的，高鐵旅客的總人次，在2019年的時候總人次達到6億人次以上，我們再來看它的日均人次，在2019年的時候是達到18萬人次，2025年2月的時候達到22萬4,000人次以上；高鐵的營收增加，2023年的營業收入是498億，2024年的營業收入是531億，它的營運、旅客人次、收入都有明顯增加，我認為應該要維持原票價，那今年我們就不予同意做這樣的調整，這是我的建議。次長簡單說明一下。"],["伍次長勝園：我說明一下，確實，剛剛就如這邊所提的，運量一直在提升，譬如以昨天的高鐵運量有32萬，比剛剛講的本來2月就有24萬，昨天又創了……大概32萬，這算是很高。未來……"],["李委員昆澤：我講的是日均人次，你講的是連假期間的人次。"],["伍次長勝園：對，我的意思是，其實它的運量不斷在增加。目前確實就我個人，我也覺得不太適合去談票價調漲的問題，也許過兩年，新車進來以後，一些成本可能會增加，那時候才是比較適合談票價調整的一個時機。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這是我們對於高鐵票價調整與否的一個基本態度。","我們接下來談相關的高雄計畫，就是鐵路地下化，它原本就是高雄計畫、鳳山計畫以及左營計畫，總經費達到998億元，統稱為高雄計畫。這個計畫，目前我們來看它相關經費的議題，總經費是998億，到114年累計總共編了803億元，其實計畫還有195億元。我認為鐵道局應該儘速辦理修正計畫的展延期程，讓這個經費賸餘的195億還能夠充分運用。","我們看高雄的鐵路地下化，當然第一階段都已經正式通車，新增加7個通勤車站，然後我們也做了綠園道，相關立體化設施、陸橋拆除、地下道填平都已經陸續完成。但是還有很多計畫要繼續改善跟充實，例如高雄車站與周邊道路的相關聯通，這個楊局長也應該知道，高雄車站經過九如路，另外一邊是建國路，要到路的另外一邊要橫越馬路，我認為應該要做地下通道。如果地下通道要做商店街，地下街做商業營運的話，必須要跟高雄市政府協調跟處理；如果單單是通道的話，鐵道局就可以規劃、可以去做。而車站也應該更智慧化地提升，還有車站的介面整合，包含跟捷運黃線還有相關的聯通等等，下一步都必須進行施作。還有高鐵南延的計畫，到高雄車站相關的介面整合跟先期工程也都必須先做處理，我希望這個經費能夠繼續展延。說明一下。"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的提示。確實，剛剛講的高雄計畫目前大概還有剩錢，計畫到114年。現在我們大概請鐵道局要進行所謂的修正計畫，因為這裡面剛剛提到，其實周邊還有很多事情可以去做，包括像現在我們的高鐵要進到高雄車站，跟過去已經不太一樣，所以這整個環境必須要再做整合。我想後面我們大概會依照剛剛委員這樣的提議，我們會去辦理修正計畫。"],["李委員昆澤：好。另外針對高鐵年度的旅客總人次，我在這邊做個補充更正，2019年總人次是6,741萬人；2024年總人次達到7,825萬人次以上，搭乘人次越來越多。","最後我簡單問一下，臺鐵北迴改善的初步評估計畫，就是所謂的轉骨計畫，因為和平跟崇德之間，我多次在交通委員會要求做改善，短期的我們針對落石偵測、邊坡處理，加強安全韌性，這是短期的計畫。交通部在我們的要求之下，也進行了這樣的一個初步評估計畫，我知道大概有兩個方案，第一個方案是仿照南迴，在海濱設置高架的一個替代方案；另外一個就走比較內陸，是做相關隧道的，不管是明隧道或挖隧道做安全改善的工程。這個評估報告1月已經送到交通部了，對不對？說明一下目前的期程。"],["伍次長勝園：沒有，這個大概是還在臺鐵內部的一個評估，剛剛提到這是很初步的一個評估。"],["李委員昆澤：你跟臺鐵對一下，1月有一個初步的報告啊！有送到這邊，現在在做審查了。"],["伍次長勝園：沒有。"],["李委員昆澤：那你們目前的進度是什麼？"],["伍次長勝園：剛剛講的，這是一個很初步的評估，裡面大概有幾個方案去做一些探討，當然這邊牽涉到所謂站場的問題，還有第一個如果是走海邊的部分，就是做高架橋的部分……"],["李委員昆澤：對，當然有場站的問題，還有安全的問題……"],["伍次長勝園：對，這些……"],["李委員昆澤：還有它的強度這樣的韌性維護、還有相關的生態衝擊等等，這都在相關的評估裡面。"],["伍次長勝園：對……"],["李委員昆澤：其實次長，你都已經初步知道這樣的初步內容。"],["伍次長勝園：對，有，是。"],["李委員昆澤：我就說1月的時候就已經有送到交通部……"],["伍次長勝園：吔……"],["李委員昆澤：初步的東西有讓你們去了解，這個我就不跟你爭論了。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["李委員昆澤：相關資料我等一下給你看。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["李委員昆澤：有關於臺鐵票價問題，就已經確認今年不予討論了，是不是這樣？"],["伍次長勝園：票價，因為行政院已經通過，我想我們大概還是……"],["李委員昆澤：不是，我講的是高鐵。"],["伍次長勝園：高鐵不會、高鐵不會。就高鐵，剛剛講的，目前大概沒有接到通知會去調漲。"],["李委員昆澤：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝昆澤委員。希望交通部注意一下就高鐵剛剛的承諾，這對人民是個很重要的承諾。","現在請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們次長請次長"},{"start":15.499,"end":41.973,"text":"委員好市長好這幾天台灣最大的新聞大概跟交通比較沒有直接關係大概都是全球這個金融的劇烈的震盪那包括大家今天台灣的股市廉價完了之後開盤之後就是收盤了那這個當然是一個很不幸的一件事情就是短期的金融的震盪那我提醒次長就是在發生這樣子一個巨大的金融的風暴的時候"},{"start":42.993,"end":67.988,"text":"尤其我們的軌道運輸相關的安全的提升可能要提醒一下我們現場的所有的從業人員無論是駕駛或者是戰務的戰務的這個服務人員安全的部分一定要在這幾天要特別的提高警覺尤其我們我們自己本身同仁的身心狀況可能因為我們都是負責第一線的安全的維護自己同仁的這個身心狀況可能主管要多加注意啦好不好謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":68.328,"end":94.381,"text":"那這個在劇烈的這個金融這個事件之後啦那我們不曉得川普這個對等關稅的這個問題啦會對國內的這個經貿產生多大的衝擊那全球目前都是一個非常悲觀的狀態如果說他不調整的話那所以說未來可能會有一些國內也會有一些其他的可能就是經濟部優先要關心的事情就是從業人員會不會有五星價還是對國內的產業鏈造成一些裁員等等的"},{"start":97.483,"end":126.843,"text":"那其實在過去我們交通部過去一直以來都是非常的積極在不管是我們的台鐵或者是公車的司機等等這些長期以來其實都是缺源非常多的情況那未來可能經濟部會提出一些多元就業的安定計畫等等的那我希望我們的相關交通部所屬除了我剛剛提到的單位過去長期以來可能有缺源的一些職缺我們可能可以儘早來提出來以後你之後如果說真的"},{"start":127.523,"end":143.085,"text":"造成了更大的危機的時候也都可以第一時間提供給經濟部穩定安定我們國內的就業我想我們交通部雖然說我們不是市主但是我們可能也可以盡我們的一份責任因應這樣的一個狀態那接下來我想跟市長討論的是台鐵票價"},{"start":143.846,"end":162.465,"text":"那台鐵票價其實在這個立法院休會期的時候有許多的討論啦其實我都在想是不是要趁立法院休會的時候趕快來放放風下來看看怎麼樣然後這個來個措手不及啦那目前我們這個董事會通過的方案大概是28%嗎26.8%不好意思口誤26.8%"},{"start":169.136,"end":188.462,"text":"過去其實以來我一直的主張就是合理的公共運輸的一個票價提供給民眾一個穩定舒適安全的乘車體驗我想比一枚的鴨子票價來的重要那有些部分如果說經濟比較弱勢的對票價有負擔壓力的"},{"start":191.343,"end":207.511,"text":"他可能是透過他應該是透過社會福利的方式去給他協助而不是說我們降低票價讓我們的公共運輸的服務品質沒辦法提升這是我一直以來我一貫的主張所以說我對於台鐵的票價我一直以來都沒有反對但是誠如剛剛所說的這個"},{"start":210.512,"end":228.456,"text":"全球的金標發生很大的問題國內的經濟可能短期內也會有很劇烈的波動那我想確認一下這短期內的一個經濟的劇烈的波動會不會成為我們台鐵我們原本是預計六月就是要調整票價會不會是影響我們票價調漲上路的一個因子或者是調漲票價幅度考慮的一個因子"},{"start":233.555,"end":240.841,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個案子其實行政院已經核定了那我們現在目前還是依照大概依據在6月26號"},{"start":244.068,"end":270.335,"text":"要進行票價的一個調整那因為他其實剛剛提到的我們大概只有26.8%其實以這個利潤課運的部分我們的利潤大概只有抓0.3幾%而已幾乎是0也就是說幾乎沒有所謂的報酬率啦所以我想我們已經考慮到我還是要提醒一下我們交通部啦或是我們台鐵還是要考慮一下這個社會的觀感啦當然如果說短期內這個經貿的風波過去了"},{"start":272.675,"end":289.314,"text":"當然最好大家都樂見這樣的情況那如果說這樣子一個經貿的危機或國內經濟的問題持續的在升溫的情況那我們台鐵又在相關的運輸票價裡面去漲了20多%那包括高鐵前幾天有新聞出來嘛票價有可能去做一個調整"},{"start":290.515,"end":307.945,"text":"那其實民眾對於我們這個相關的觀感我認為你們必須要審慎的來評估考慮啦或者說我們當然現在平益是20多%其實我也是認為一次20多%的一個比例這當然是長年累積起來的一個結果不一定責任都在你們的身上那只是說既然要調整的話"},{"start":308.965,"end":332.631,"text":"一次20多%其實民眾會感覺是非常大的一個改變我會建議啦就是說逐年的來提升譬如說我們一年或者說因應這個我不會說遇到了金融的問題我們就不調漲我們總是要走第一步但是一次26%如果說到時候國內的可能經濟問題就業問題逐漸浮上檯面之後我們有沒有其他配套的方案能夠"},{"start":333.552,"end":339.339,"text":"讓民眾對於我們交通部或台鐵不要那種好像我們生活經濟已經很困難了結果你們還在漲票價搶錢這樣子的感覺"},{"start":342.281,"end":370.461,"text":"我跟委員報告其實剛剛提到票價的部分如果以短程來講我們所謂T pass所以它其實並不受短期就是我們通勤的並不受影響假設你沒有加多T pass又沒有T pass的時候譬如以台北到板橋大概就增加7塊錢比公車比捷運都便宜很多所以並我覺得這樣對應該這樣是有考慮到整個社會的一些接受程度"},{"start":371.383,"end":400.066,"text":"我還是建議我們台鐵當然這個是核定是政府部門的權責我還是會建議一下這相關調整的比例或者是我們目前面對的國內的一個經濟的一個動態我們是不是可以考慮我們知道我們長期來台鐵都是在補貼都在虧存補貼的那我建議是不是能夠分年度分段的來調整來避免對我們民眾的衝擊太高以上給我們希望我們能夠"},{"start":401.57,"end":402.978,"text":"多多參考啦,好不好,再拜託,謝謝委員,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時49分）謝謝主席，麻煩邀請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：次長好。這幾天臺灣最大的新聞大概跟交通比較沒有直接關係，大概都是全球金融劇烈震盪，包括今天臺灣股市連假完了之後，開盤之後就是收盤了！這個當然是很不幸的一件事情，就是短期的金融震盪，我提醒次長，在發生這樣子巨大金融風暴的時候，尤其我們的軌道運輸相關的安全提升，我可能要提醒一下現場的所有從業人員，無論是駕駛、站務的服務人員，安全的部分在這幾天一定要特別提高警覺。"],["伍次長勝園：是，這是我們應該做的。"],["廖委員先翔：尤其是同仁的身心狀況，因為各位都是負責第一線安全維護的，自己同仁的身心狀況可能主管要多加注意。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員提醒。"],["廖委員先翔：在劇烈的金融事件之後，我們不曉得川普的對等關稅會對國內的經貿產生多大的衝擊，全球目前都是非常悲觀的狀態，如果他不調整的話，未來國內可能也會有一些其他部會像經濟部優先要關心的事情，例如從業人員會不會有無薪假，還是造成國內的產業鏈裁員等等。過去交通部一直以來都非常的積極，不管是臺鐵或公車司機等等長期以來都是缺員非常多，未來可能經濟部會提出了一些多元就業的安定計畫，我希望交通部所屬除了我剛剛提到的單位，過去長期以來可能有一些職缺，請儘早提出來，之後如果造成了更大的危機，才可以在第一時間提供給經濟部，來穩定、安定我們國內的就業，交通部雖然不是事主，但是也可以盡一份責任，因應這樣的狀態。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["廖委員先翔：接下來我想跟次長討論的是臺鐵票價，臺鐵票價其實在立法院休會的時候有許多的討論，我都在想是不是要趁立法院休會的時候趕快來測風向，然後來個措手不及，目前董事會通過的方案大概是28%。"],["伍次長勝園：26.8%。"],["廖委員先翔：不好意思，口誤。過去以來，其實我一直主張，合理的公共運輸票價，提供民眾穩定、舒適、安全的乘車體驗，比一昧的壓著票價來得重要，有些部分像經濟比較弱勢的、對票價有負擔壓力的，應該透過社會福利的方式去給予協助，而不是降低票價讓我們的公共運輸服務品質沒辦法提升，這是我一直以來一貫的主張，所以我對於臺鐵的票價一直以來都沒有反對。但是誠如剛剛所說的，現在全球的經貿發生很大的問題，國內的經濟短期內可能也會有很劇烈的波動，那我想確認一下，這短期內的經濟劇烈的波動，會不會成為影響臺鐵調漲票價及調漲幅度的一個因子？因為臺鐵原本預計6月要調整票價。"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，因為這個案子行政院已經核定了，我們現在還是依照原定計畫，預計在6月26號進行票價的調整，剛剛也提到了，大概只有26.8%，在客運的部分，我們的利潤大概只有抓0.3%多而已，幾乎是零，也就是說幾乎沒有所謂的報酬率，我們已經考慮到社會可以接受……"],["廖委員先翔：所以我還是要提醒一下交通部、臺鐵，還是要考慮一下社會的觀感，如果短期內這個經貿風波過去了，當然最好，大家都樂見這樣的情況，但如果這個經貿危機或國內經濟的問題持續在升溫，我們臺鐵的運輸票價又漲二十多%，包括前幾天也有新聞出來，指高鐵票價也有可能調整，我想民眾的觀感你們必須要審慎的評估考慮，當然現在評議是二十多%，當然一次二十多%的比例是長年累積起來的結果，責任不一定都在你們的身上，只是說一次調整二十多%，其實民眾會感覺是非常大的一個改變，所以我會建議逐年來提升，我不會說遇到了金融問題就不調漲，我們總是要走第一步，但是一次26%，到時候國內的經濟問題、就業問題逐漸浮上檯面之後，你們有沒有其他配套方案能夠讓民眾不要感覺我們生活經濟已經很困難了，結果交通部、臺鐵還在漲票價、搶錢？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，其實剛剛提到票價的部分，如果以短程來講，像TPASS，短程通勤的並不受影響，但假設你沒有加入TPASS，又沒有TPASS的時候，臺北到板橋大概只增加7塊錢，比公車、捷運都便宜很多。所以我覺得這樣應該是有考慮到整個社會的接受程度。"],["廖委員先翔：好，當然核定是政府部門的權責，但我還是會建議臺鐵在相關調整的比例上，我們知道長期以來臺鐵都是在虧損補貼的，但面對目前國內的經濟動態，是不是能夠分年度、分段的來調漲，避免對我們的民眾衝擊太高？以上希望你們能夠多多參考，再拜託次長，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請李昆澤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那有請次長 謝謝請次長"},{"start":14.11,"end":43.239,"text":"委員好好 市長辛苦了台鐵真的有很多問題需要改善喔這兩天的新聞我相信你一定都非常清楚不管是這個月台門的問題或者是這個安全的問題還有這個人翻覆過翻爬過去的問題我很好奇喔台鐵在相關事情上的規劃進度因為我知道台鐵一直有在做這個相關的規劃目前為止就您所掌握的進度不管是規劃事辦安裝纜繩月台門或者是安全門跟日本介進的這個部分我想要知道你們目前的進度"},{"start":44.642,"end":70.934,"text":"我跟委員報告這個月台門部分我們做一個事半的一個工程是在高雄車站那這部分目前的展示的部分已經放上去了那後面的功能目前在設計我們預計在年底可以完成整個一個測試那在明年的三月可以把這個完工完工之後我們再評估是不是在其他的月台的其他車站的部分來進行這個月台門的一個規劃好"},{"start":72.094,"end":101.297,"text":"我很好奇這個關於評估的標的到底是什麼因為你說年底完工然後就開始試做試辦然後看看這個績效如何狀況如何但我很好奇台鐵內部或者是一般人因為只要每次台鐵上了新聞相關的那個鐵路鐵道迷的朋友們的留言都是幾乎是網路上最熱烈但我很好奇台鐵內部自己專家的意見或者是專家學者的意見或是你們那個評估的標的到底是什麼"},{"start":103.969,"end":123.355,"text":"我跟委員報告因為台鐵的車種非常多那這個為什麼是事半就是剛剛講的我們把它弄完之後我們去針對每一個車型然後去做一些討論有些的功能是不是應該增加有些功能是不是應該減少我想就是在這個時候我們來做所以才會到年底的時候才把這個事半的部分完成"},{"start":123.755,"end":144.572,"text":"其實次長你講到關鍵就是因為車型的樣態非常多然後每一個月台的狀況也不一樣還有呢就是如果這些狀況搭配組合起來那個排列組合的樣態會非常非常多那如果其實在這些為什麼一直有嗶嗶聲那個手機轉接您好不好等一下吵到大家"},{"start":152.227,"end":160.631,"text":"好主席我的時間好沒關係好其實日本在這件事情上我相信台鐵應該有接近日本的經驗那日本的經驗他們"},{"start":162.216,"end":189.235,"text":"的狀態可能跟次長您也講的差不多就是呢月台的樣態非常多元然後車種的樣態也非常多元所以排列組合起來他們所必須做的事情其實也非常非常的困難那日本的經驗他們其實已經告訴我們了相關成本非常昂貴保養的維運也很花時間又很花錢而且在現在各行各業普遍缺工的情況下這件事情做起來更加困難還有月台門也可能因為故障失效反而變成另外一個"},{"start":189.935,"end":199.277,"text":"另外一個危安的因素所以我也很好奇台鐵在這件事情上後續到底長期的規劃是什麼或者是說我們只能短期短期來看我們沒有辦法往長期去想"},{"start":200.273,"end":219.42,"text":"我想還是剛剛所講的因為它是個師辦那這裡面我們一開始其實研討加了很多功能那過一陣子我們剛講開始做了以後我們去討論這些功能是否完全必要那我們這邊是希望是自主開發居多還是以日本的系統搬過來用然後做一些改良為主"},{"start":220.3,"end":247.355,"text":"我們不見得說一定是參考以哪一個國家的金額為主我想是依照我們目前我們台鐵公司的樣態來做比較實在好如果是這樣那代表我們會有自主開發成分是高的那如果自主開發成分是高的我要拜託次長不管後續您或後續的董事長是誰我認為在中間實測的過程當中我們在自主開發所會遇到的困難不管是經驗上的困難或者是人力上的困難專業上的困難"},{"start":249.216,"end":263.684,"text":"這件事情我們到底如何解決還是我們每次都只選一些固定的站點做一些示範然後好像就可以對安全這件事情有所交代我認為人民還是有疑慮的所以要拜託次長要把這個問題帶回去繼續作為一個非常重要的施政參考"},{"start":264.924,"end":293.053,"text":"那我知道台鐵在2019年曾經有做過智慧影像辨識的事情當時我們討論到因為有隱私的問題還有相關系統可能有中國製的產品的問題所以就喊停那我要提醒次長2019的AI到了2025的AI樣他已經不一樣了那台灣有沒有能力自己做這件事情有沒有相關的評估你覺得我們有沒有機會往這一段去評估用AI重新啟動作為輔助防止越台漢市的可能性"},{"start":294.374,"end":310.329,"text":"這確實在2019的時候曾經有想要試辦那剛剛就提到了因為有隱私權大概那時候大概外界對這有點意見那現在剛剛講AI應用很普遍我想除了我們編播之外我想這部分我們可以來研討看看"},{"start":310.549,"end":337.137,"text":"好那我希望你們帶回去研討這件事情因為我相信台灣是應該有能力自己做這件事情如果按照您說的剛剛纜繩越台也好安全門也好台鐵有更多自主研發的空間我認為一併把AI系統納入應該是可行的好嗎好這一題我們之後也會往下追喔在接下來小年夜北中南電纜遭到接連破壞當時王定宇委員提醒說可能會有國安的疑慮我想問一下目前這個案子追查的進度是如何"},{"start":338.205,"end":356.373,"text":"跟委員報告,這個案子已經破案了,應該只是附近的相關人士為了貪圖,他要去賣那個銅線的這樣的物料,獲取一點金錢那這個已經破案了,我想這後面,我們後面會好好再去處理"},{"start":357.395,"end":372.342,"text":"所謂好好處理值的事就是剛剛講的我們會跟我們的路警局可以這個橫向溝通更清楚因為其實他們對周遭的哪些的人員可能會去做過切到這樣的一個動作應該都有掌握"},{"start":372.642,"end":390.559,"text":"好 所以次長你已經說出兩個字你認為這是單純的竊盜事件而且是個案性的事件目前看是這樣好 沒有問題我們可以接受這個說法但是我們也是要參考我認為相關事件真的很有可能在台灣發生在巴黎奧運的開幕當天法國鐵路網就遭到惡意的攻擊"},{"start":391.3,"end":408.636,"text":"那我認為在目前的情況下台灣不是沒有機會遇到相關國安的問題在台鐵的整個系統當中你自己有沒有想過這件事情在台鐵目前系整個運作系統當中的因應能力到哪裡或者是整個因應系統的準備我們現在做到哪裡了"},{"start":409.176,"end":435.471,"text":"是這個我想這個我去台鐵以後我有發現這個問題我覺得它真的很重要因為台鐵畢竟是他們的一個骨幹藝術骨幹那針對治安的部分我想那時候跟我們的資訊處我們希望能夠針對整個驗證導入第三者來做治安可以達到A級的這樣的一個等級我想這部分我們後續會再去做努力"},{"start":436.051,"end":458.704,"text":"資安的部分歸資安 我剛剛提的其實不大是資安但是我覺得我很感謝你提到資安的部分如果在您的代理董事長的任內真的可以完成相關A級資安的認證我認為這件事情是會讓國人放心也會讓台灣整體社會的韌性是因此提高可是我要提醒 相關台鐵的演習劇本目前都只有停留在列車事故 對吧"},{"start":461.392,"end":481.683,"text":"所以你們的目標是動員災防反恐可是相關社會任性的概念目前有沒有放進台鐵的演習劇本當中連賴清德總統都要親自主持社會任性因應防疫委員會那我不知道台鐵作為台灣運輸主要的骨幹尤其如果在各種緊急狀況的時候我們有沒有這樣的能力去面對這個事情"},{"start":483.224,"end":506.041,"text":"這個部分剛講任性的部分我們目前也會把它導進來這是我們未來要努力的這個我們來做好 這個你們來做我就先把這個概念提出來那到底加入社會任性這個部分要做哪些事情我相信台鐵應該有能力去研究就算如果台鐵自己能力不足也許可以委託外面的專家學者或是跟社會任性防疫委員會討論"},{"start":507.722,"end":530.777,"text":"最後一個這兩天有這個新聞要突襲檢查關於駕駛室的事情因為我們說有這個列車駕駛停車失檔然後台鐵的回應是說要增加突襲檢查但是我看到相關的新聞有工會的代表受訪認為突襲檢查會增加駕駛員的壓力那我很好奇到底這件事情你們未來要怎麼做"},{"start":532.422,"end":561.041,"text":"我講說這個其實第一個我先講那個不叫所謂的突襲檢查可是你們新聞是這樣說的不是絕對不是突襲我們是剛講會加強飢餓但是絕對不是用突襲檢查的方式他是靠站的時候我們過去裡面到裡面去看也就是有點是一個指導員到裡面去看他的一些動作有沒有正常之類的那至於影音的這個價值式影音的這個記錄問題其實在幾年前就已經一直在談那當然同仁有一些"},{"start":562.482,"end":585.12,"text":"有一些不一樣的考慮到說隱私的部分之類的我想這部分我覺得最終正道應該是這個還是比較正道啦應該要去設置這個影音紀錄一個問題因為包括北捷啦其他的大概都有設置這個我們後面會來繼續跟同仁來溝通好 謝謝次長有承擔自己主動講出關於這個影音紀錄的問題"},{"start":586.081,"end":605.866,"text":"因為如果要增加突襲檢查或者是所謂集合員進到駕駛室其實你需要增加人力而且如果駕駛員是有反彈的我認為需要溝通可是我知道我前一輪的質詢其實我在去年六月我就有問過影印記錄的問題我知道當時很多工會的成員是反對的我們就公開的說但是在工會成員反對必須要兼顧他們的隱私"},{"start":606.266,"end":623.863,"text":"又兼顧國人的用車安全這件事情上我認為是需要溝通 需要討論如何讓所有這些工會成員認為他們是被尊重的不是被窺探的 不是被監視的但是我們的行政機關還是願意對國人的用車安全表示負責我認為這件事情非常非常的困難"},{"start":624.483,"end":641.712,"text":"所以如果次長您剛主動講到其實連北捷高鐵都有這個所謂影像紀錄這件事情但如果台鐵要加裝會遇到的困難要拜託次長真的積極的解決也許跟工會成員討論了也許我們還有更多社會溝通需要進行是這是我們應該做的好謝謝謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":136,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時38分）謝謝主席，有請次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長辛苦了。臺鐵真的有很多問題需要改善，這兩天的新聞我相信你一定都非常清楚，不管是月台門的問題，或者是安全的問題，還有人翻爬過去的問題。我很好奇臺鐵在相關事情上的規劃進度，因為我知道臺鐵一直有在做相關的規劃，目前為止，就您所掌握的進度，不管是規劃試辦安裝纜繩月台門或者是安全門，就是跟日本借鏡的這個部分，我想要知道你們目前的進度。"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，月台門的部分我們做了一個試辦的工程是在高雄車站，目前展示的部分已經放上去了，後面的功能目前正在設計，我們預計在年底可以完成整個測試，明年3月可以完工，完工之後我們再來評估是不是在其他車站來進行月台門的規劃。"],["陳委員培瑜：我很好奇關於評估的標的到底是什麼，因為你說年底完工，然後就開始試辦，然後看看這個績效如何、狀況如何，但我很好奇，臺鐵內部或者是一般人，因為只要每次臺鐵上了新聞，相關的鐵道迷朋友們的留言幾乎是網路上最熱烈的，但我很好奇臺鐵內部自己專家的意見，或者是專家學者的意見，或是你們評估的標的到底是什麼？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，因為臺鐵的車種非常多，這個為什麼是試辦？就是剛剛講的，我們把它弄完之後，我們去針對每一個車型做一些討論，有些功能是不是應該增加、有些功能是不是應該減少？我想就是在這個時候，我們來做，所以才會到年底的時候把這個試辦的部分完成。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實次長你講到關鍵，就是因為車型的樣態非常多。"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：然後每一個月台的狀況也不一樣，還有就是如果這些狀況搭配組合起來，那個排列組合的樣態會非常非常多，其實在……為什麼一直會有嗶嗶聲？"],["主席：手機調靜音好不好？不要吵到大家。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實日本在這件事情上，我相信臺鐵應該有借鏡日本的經驗，日本的狀態可能跟次長您講得也差不多，就是月台的樣態非常多元，然後車種的樣態也非常多元，所以排列組合起來，他們所必須做的事情其實也非常非常的困難，日本的經驗其實已經告訴我們了，相關成本非常昂貴，保養的維運也很花時間、又很花錢，而且在現在各行各業普遍缺工的情況下，這件事情做起來更加困難，還有月台門也可能因為故障失效，反而變成另外一個維安的因素。所以我也很好奇，臺鐵在這件事情上，後續到底長期的規劃是什麼？或者是說我們只能短期、短期來看，我們沒有辦法往長期去想？"],["伍次長勝園：我想，還是剛剛所講的，因為在試辦，這裡面我們一開始其實研討加了很多功能，過一陣子，我們剛剛講的，開始做了以後我們去討論這些功能是不是還有必要，然後再做一些精進。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們這邊希望是自主開發居多，還是以日本的系統搬過來用，然後做一些改良為主？"],["伍次長勝園：我們不見得一定是參考哪一個國家的經驗為主，我想是依照目前我們臺鐵公司的樣態來做比較實在。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果是這樣，那代表我們會有自主開發成分是高的。"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果自主開發成分是高的，我要拜託次長，不管後續的董事長是誰，我認為在中間實測的過程當中，我們在自主開發所會遇到的困難，不管是經驗上的困難或者是人力上的困難、專業上的困難，這件事情我們到底如何解決？還是我們每次都只選一些固定的站點做一些試辦，然後好像就可以對安全這件事情有所交代？我認為人民還是有疑慮的！所以拜託次長要把這個問題帶回去，繼續作為一個非常重要的施政參考。"],["伍次長勝園：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道臺鐵在2019年曾經有做過智慧影像辨識的事情，當時我們討論到因為有隱私的問題，還有相關系統可能有中國製產品的問題，所以就喊停，那我要提醒次長，2019的AI到了2025的AI，樣態已經不一樣了，臺灣有沒有能力自己做這件事情？有沒有相關的評估？你覺得我們有沒有機會往這一段去評估，用AI重新啟動，作為輔助防止月台憾事的可能性？"],["伍次長勝園：確實在2019的時候曾經有想要試辦，剛剛就提到了，因為有隱私權的問題，那時候大概外界對這部分有點意見，剛剛講到因為AI應用很普遍，我想除了邊坡之外，這部分我們可以來研討看看是不是可以放進來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我希望你們帶回去研討這件事情，因為我相信臺灣是應該有能力自己做這件事情，如果按照您剛剛說的，纜繩月台門也好、安全門也好，臺鐵有更多自主研發的空間，我認為一併把AI系統納入應該是可行的，好嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：這一題我們之後也會往下追。","接下來，小年夜北中南電纜遭到接連破壞，當時王定宇委員提醒可能會有國安的疑慮，我想問一下，目前這個案子追查的進度是如何？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這個案子已經破案了，應該只是附近的相關人士為了貪圖，他要去賣銅線這個物料獲取一點金錢，這個已經破案了，我想後面我們會好好再去處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：所謂好好處理指的是？"],["伍次長勝園：就是剛剛講的，我們會跟我們的路警局橫向溝通更清楚，因為其實他們對於周遭哪些人員可能會去做竊盜這樣的動作，應該都有掌握。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以次長你已經說出兩個字，你認為這是單純的竊盜事件，而且是個案性事件。"],["伍次長勝園：對，目前看是這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前看是這樣，好，沒有問題，我們可以接受這個說法，但是我們也是要參考，我認為相關事件真的很有可能在臺灣發生，在巴黎奧運開幕當天，法國鐵路網就遭到惡意的攻擊，我認為在目前的情況下，臺灣不是沒有機會遇到相關國安的問題，在臺鐵的整個系統當中，你自己有沒有想過這件事情在臺鐵目前整個運作系統當中的因應能力到哪裡？或者是整個因應系統的準備，我們現在做到哪裡了？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我想我去臺鐵以後，我也發現這個問題，我覺得它真的很重要，因為臺鐵畢竟是臺灣的運輸骨幹，針對資安的部分，那時候跟我們的資訊處希望能夠針對整個驗證導入第三者，讓資安可以達到A級這樣一個等級，我想這部分我們後續會再去做努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：資安的部分歸資安，我剛剛提的其實不大是資安，但是我覺得我很感謝你提到資安的部分，如果在您代理董事長任內真的可以完成相關A級資安的認證，我認為這件事情是會讓國人放心，也會讓臺灣整體社會的韌性因此提高。可是我要提醒，相關臺鐵的演習劇本目前都只有停留在列車事故，對吧？"],["伍次長勝園：對，大部分是這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以你們的目標是動員、災防、反恐？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是相關社會韌性的概念，目前有沒有放進臺鐵的演習劇本當中？連賴清德總統都要親自主持社會防衛韌性委員會，我不知道臺鐵作為臺灣運輸主要的骨幹，尤其如果在各種緊急狀況的時候，我們有沒有這樣的能力去面對這個事情？"],["伍次長勝園：針對這個部分，剛剛講的韌性的部分，我們目前也會把它導進來，這是我們未來要努力的，這個我們來做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個你們來做，我就先把這個概念提出來。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：到底加入社會韌性這個部分要做哪些事情？我相信臺鐵應該有能力去研究，就算如果臺鐵自己能力不足，也許可以委託外面的專家學者，或是跟社會防衛韌性委員會討論。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後一個，這兩天有這個新聞，要突襲檢查關於駕駛室的事情，對嘛？因為有列車駕駛停車失當，然後臺鐵的回應是說要增加突襲檢查，但是我看到相關新聞，有工會代表受訪認為，突襲檢查會增加駕駛員的壓力，我很好奇到底這件事情你們未來要怎麼做？"],["伍次長勝園：第一個我先講，那個不叫所謂的突襲檢查。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是你們的新聞是這樣說的。"],["伍次長勝園：不是，絕對不是突襲檢查！我們剛剛講是會加強稽核，但是絕對不是用突襲檢查的方式，它是靠站的時候我們過去到裡面去看，也就是有一個指導員到裡面去看他的一些動作有沒有正常之類的。至於駕駛室影音的紀錄問題，其實在幾年前就已經一直在談，當然同仁有一些不一樣的看法，考慮到隱私部分之類的，我想這部分，我覺得最終比較正道的應該還是要設置影音紀錄這樣的問題，因為包括北捷，其他大概都有設置，這個我們後面會繼續跟同仁溝通。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長有承擔，自己主動講出關於影音紀錄的問題，因為如果要增加突襲檢查或者是所謂稽核員進到駕駛室，其實你需要增加人力，而且如果駕駛員是有反彈的，我認為需要溝通。可是我前一輪的質詢，其實在去年6月我就有問過影音紀錄的問題，我知道當時很多工會成員是反對的，我們就公開地說，但是在工會成員反對，必須要兼顧他們的隱私，又兼顧國人的用車安全這件事情上，我認為是需要溝通、需要討論，如何讓所有這些工會成員認為他們是被尊重的，不是被窺探的、不是被監視的，但是我們的行政機關還是願意對國人的用車安全表示負責，我認為這件事情非常非常的困難，所以如果次長您剛剛主動講到，其實連北捷、高鐵都有所謂影音紀錄這件事情，但如果臺鐵要加裝會遇到的困難，要拜託次長真的積極地解決，也許跟工會成員討論，也許我們還有更多的社會溝通需要進行。"],["伍次長勝園：是，這是我們應該做的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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隨便花 亂花反正又不是決策的人要出這件事情交通部有檢討嗎台鐵有檢討嗎還是118450萬在台鐵的眼中這小錢啦 藍三的啦 沒有關係啊是這樣嗎說明一下這件事情誰要負責"},{"start":171.584,"end":180.967,"text":"我再強調一次喔這是新車喔這不是舊車喔這不是舊車老舊要去換設備是從新的車開始座椅就有問題連交通部部長都承認有問題結果再花一億八我們的政府很有錢還是台鐵很有錢來說明一下誰要負責"},{"start":197.393,"end":214.32,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為這個當時他的座椅的材質是所謂的防火的耐燃的部分所以他比較硬一點那確實大概做起來大概補片的就覺得反應說比較硬所以我剛剛都講過了現在我再問你的問題是誰要負責沒有人要負責嗎沒有關係花納稅人的錢啊"},{"start":225.836,"end":254.765,"text":"現在大家看不懂啊我們的政府到底在做什麼決策粗糙品質爛新的車的座椅沒辦法坐沒有關係再花118來改還不是只有這件事喔再往下看普悠瑪完了以後又搞一個列控4.0找了一個詐騙廠商啊叫李力"},{"start":256.755,"end":284.741,"text":"怎麼勾上線的我有一定程度的了解李立啊現在是把我們啊國際桃園國際機場T3航廈的自駕車的系統搞得亂七八糟啊搞到要解約啊現在這廠商啊躲到哪裡去了不知道但是這個詐騙廠商啊政商關係良好啊關係非常的好之前搞一個列控4.0"},{"start":286.553,"end":314.829,"text":"花六千萬結果我又問應安會說系統根本不能用來你們這個列控4.0還要再搞第二期嗎公務員報告這部分我們現在還在評估啦還要評估多久還要評估多久我們會在我們董事會的那個安全我老實跟你們講啦當初錯了就勇敢承認錯誤啦不要以拖待變啦"},{"start":316.584,"end":343.576,"text":"所以要評估18個月這種爛東西需要評估18個月喔笑死人了啊你們反正就是用時間來拖延嘛之前花6000萬你丟一顆石頭到水裡還會動一聲啊你花了6000萬搞這個列控室點停室有什麼用什麼用都沒有啦我跟你保證你18個月買以後絕對不會繼續做啦為什麼不會繼續做 這東西太爛了嘛"},{"start":345.587,"end":367.996,"text":"當初六千萬拿給這個廠商胡搞瞎搞有什麼具體的成果什麼具體的成果都沒有啊政府很有錢啊納稅的錢國家的錢這樣亂花都沒有關係啊改椅子1.8億列控4.0再丟六千萬錢多得不得了啊再往下看台鐵遮斷器"},{"start":377.289,"end":402.694,"text":"1424號 耗費近4.8億 什麼時候裝得完本來預期什麼時候要裝完 現在什麼時候裝得完跟我們報告 現在這個我們評估 因為它涉及到電源的關係現在有關老舊 所以變成電源的部分要先一併來做更新那現在我們評估大概會在明年的七月可以完成明年的七月吧 是遲延多久了大概延了一年多"},{"start":404.138,"end":425.019,"text":"一樣啊爛的不得了啊從花蓮裝到彰化遮斷器放不下來之前我已經質詢過這件事啊來看一下現在進度本來要裝1424號本來去年8月的時候就要做完了現在裝了396套加上42套供料我的資訊有沒有錯"},{"start":427.03,"end":443.195,"text":"沒有錯沒有錯嘛什麼時候做得完 你說明年七月 上一次我問喔你們給我的資料是今年年底要做完但我看這個進度根本做不完嘛絕對做不完嘛現在要延到明年七月喔誰要負責任"},{"start":444.653,"end":461.108,"text":"第二個我上次來這邊問前董事長杜威跟我講說這個遮斷器之前出現了很大的問題因為那是鐵路停交道這牽涉到人命的安全我上次質詢的時候我說這家公司安全嗎"},{"start":462.777,"end":490.152,"text":"裝到髒話都不想要裝啊說不要來裝了啊會出事啊上次杜威跟我講說這個問題有收斂真的有收斂嗎到目前為止有收斂嗎我跟委員報告確實這些原因有在收斂中一個比較嚴重的隱形的關係啦過去兩個月有沒有發生事故因為他遮斷器的問題有沒有發生事故有沒有造成人受傷 有還是沒有"},{"start":493.445,"end":514.659,"text":"有沒有台東的部分有一個對嘛這是你們上次跟我講的說現在安全沒有疑慮我上次質詢的時候台鐵回函給我安全沒有疑慮結果呢結果你們內部的人看不下去說那個董事長胡說八道說謊你們新聞蓋得很好這個是內部的人傳來給我的"},{"start":521.417,"end":535.468,"text":"又造成事故了啊又有人受傷了啊結果上次我站在這邊質詢啊你們台鐵董事長還跟我講說安全沒有疑慮現在呢今天還是拍胸脯保證安全沒有疑慮嗎"},{"start":538.011,"end":551.422,"text":"我跟委員報告剛提到的這幾個原因確實是前面幾個因素已經弄得已經收斂差不多現在就剩下電源的部分那電源部分因為舊的電源比較不穩定我們現在要講電源就來講電源"},{"start":553.684,"end":582.032,"text":"上次我就講了發刀的時候沒有做好就開始東拉西扯說電源有問題然後你們之前還編了1.9億啊你事情沒做好國家還要再編預算花1.9億讓你去花1.9億讓你去改善電源來我們看一下這個是你們本來追加1.87億嘛這是你們台鐵本來台鐵電聯智慧化提升計畫裡面的內容啊"},{"start":584.368,"end":606.173,"text":"是吧我公開諮詢完了以後說這個不能給同一家特定廠商做這也出事了說現在要公開招標說三月要發包絕標了嗎還沒有這樣還沒有絕標網路的絕標什麼時候要發包還要再拖多久一年的四月就會發"},{"start":611.819,"end":632.017,"text":"我再講一次你們112年回函的內容是什麼?遮斷感沒有電流不足的問題結果現在廠商東西搞不好廠商東西搞不好我們政府解決的方法很簡單納稅人的錢拿來花我再編預算再讓你改善電流"},{"start":633.454,"end":654.288,"text":"現在我有個最根本的問題這個廠商當初在投標的時候他不知道既有客觀環境是什麼你們當初還跟這個廠商講不要去牽拖電流的事情結果現在最後政府讓步了政府讓步解決的方法是什麼納稅人的錢編啊用納稅人的錢去幫這個廠商啊資錢給你四億多搞不定不僅遲延安全還有問題"},{"start":664.358,"end":669.041,"text":"現在解決的方法非常簡單我在編預算再給你錢搞我為什麼說納稅人看不懂我們政府很有錢啦預算這樣亂編亂花都沒有關係啊從頭到尾沒有人要負責嘛我有說錯嗎錢這樣花整個交通部看也沒有關係台鐵也沒有人要負責"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":93,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請交通部政務次長，也是臺鐵的代理董事長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長，臺鐵有很多事情其實讓納稅人看不太懂，我一樣一樣來跟您請教。第一個，自強號EMU3000型的列車，當初說是臺灣最美的列車，結果跑我們的東部幹線，座椅不符合人體工學，民眾坐得腰酸背痛，還有充電器難用。這些事情之前交通部部長陳世凱在這個委員會接受質詢的時候也說了，說他自己坐都覺得有這樣子的問題，這個必須要改善。請問次長，目前這件事情的改善進度如何？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，針對座椅的問題，我們大概也擬了幾個方案……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，你就直接講現在改善的進度如何？完成百分之多少？"],["伍次長勝園：我們現在已經找出最優的方案，現在要進行所謂的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還沒有開始進行，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：還沒有開始，大概……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。第一個，你們現在的改善方案要花多少錢？"],["伍次長勝園：大概1.7億左右。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下，每一列改裝的費用是369萬，有50列，乘起來是1億8,450萬，這個數字沒有錯嘛？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在問題來了，你們當初跟大家號稱，還有什麼人體工學小組，一堆專家參與，結果搞了半天，新的椅子難坐，現在還要花1億8,450萬，這個錢誰要出？這不是舊的車子喔，這是新的車子喔！新的車子進來以後發現椅子很難坐，處理的方式是再花1億8,450萬來改，這個錢誰要出？沒有人要負責嗎？還是沒有關係，納稅人的錢儘量花、隨便花、亂花，反正又不是決策的人要出，這件事情交通部有檢討嗎？臺鐵有檢討嗎？還是1億8,450萬在臺鐵的眼中是小錢啦，是「零星」啦，沒有關係，是這樣嗎？說明一下，這件事情誰要負責？我再強調一次喔，這是新車，這不是舊車、這不是舊車老舊要更換設備，是新車一開始坐椅就有問題，連交通部部長都承認有問題，結果要再花1.8億，我們的政府很有錢還是臺鐵很有錢？說明一下誰要負責？"],["伍次長勝園：我想跟委員報告，因為當時這個座椅的材質是所謂防火的、耐燃的，所以比較硬一點啦，確實坐起來普遍的反映是比較硬……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我剛剛都講過了，現在我在問你的問題是誰要負責？沒有人要負責嘛！沒有關係，花納稅人的錢啊！現在大家看不懂啊！我們的政府到底在做什麼？決策粗糙、品質爛，新車的座椅沒辦法坐，沒有關係，再花1.8億來改，還不是只有這件事喔！再往下看，普悠瑪完了以後你們又搞一個列控4.0，找了一個詐騙廠商叫理立，怎麼勾上線的，我有一定程度的了解，理立現在把我們桃園國際機場T3航廈的自駕車系統搞得亂七八糟，搞到要解約，現在這個廠商躲到哪裡去了不知道，但是這個詐騙廠商政商關係良好、關係非常的好，之前搞一個列控4.0花6,000萬，結果我問了運安會卻說系統根本不能用，那你們這個列控4.0還要再搞第二期嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這部分我們現在還在評估。"],["黃委員國昌：還要評估多久？"],["伍次長勝園：我們會在我們董事會的安全……"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟你們講啦，當初錯了就勇敢承認錯誤，不要以拖待變啦！說要評估18個月，這種爛東西需要評估18個月，笑死人了！你們反正就是用時間來拖延嘛，之前花6,000萬，你丟一顆石頭到水裡還會「咚」一聲，你花了6,000萬搞這個列控4.0是有什麼用？什麼用都沒有啦！我跟你保證，18個月以後你絕對不會繼續做啦，為什麼不會繼續做？這個東西太爛了嘛！當初6,000萬拿給這個廠商胡搞瞎搞，有什麼具體的成果？什麼具體的成果都沒有！政府很有錢，納稅人的錢、國家的錢這樣亂花都沒有關係，改椅子1.8億，列控4.0再丟6,000萬，錢多得不得了啊！","再往下看，臺鐵採購遮斷器1,424套耗費近4.8億，什麼時候裝得完？本來預期什麼時候要裝完？現在什麼時候裝得完？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，據我們評估，因為這涉及到電源系統老舊的關係，所以變成電源的部分要先一併來做更新，現在我們評估大概會在明年7月可以完成。"],["黃委員國昌：明年7月嘛。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員國昌：遲延多久了？"],["伍次長勝園：大概延了一年多。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣爛得不得了！從花蓮裝到彰化，遮斷器放不下來，之前我已經質詢過這件事，我們來看一下現在的進度，本來要裝1,424套，本來去年8月的時候就要做完了，現在裝了396套加上42套供料，我的資訊有沒有錯？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛，什麼時候做得完？你是說明年7月，上一次我問的時候，你們給我的資料是今年年底要做完，但我看這個進度根本做不完，絕對做不完嘛！現在要延到明年7月，誰要負責任？","第二個，我上次來這邊問，前董事長杜微跟我講，這個遮斷器之前出現了很大的問題，因為那是鐵路平交道，這牽涉到人命的安全，上次質詢的時候我說這家公司安全嗎？裝到彰化都不想要裝，說不要來裝了，會出事啦！上次杜微跟我講說這個問題有收斂，真的有收斂嗎？到目前為止有收斂嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，確實這些原因有在收斂中，一個比較嚴重的原因是電源的關係。"],["黃委員國昌：過去兩個月有沒有發生事故？因為遮斷器的問題，有沒有發生事故？有沒有造成人受傷？有還是沒有？有沒有？"],["伍次長勝園：臺東的部分有一個。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這是你們上次跟我講的，說現在安全沒有疑慮，我上次質詢的時候，臺鐵回函給我說安全沒有疑慮，結果呢？結果你們內部的人看不下去，說董事長胡說八道、說謊，你們新聞蓋得很好啦，這個是內部的人傳來給我的，又造成事故了啊、又有人受傷了啊！結果上次我站在這邊質詢，你們臺鐵董事長還跟我講說安全沒有疑慮，現在呢？今天還是拍胸脯保證安全沒有疑慮嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛提到這幾個原因，確實前面幾個因素已經收斂差不多了，現在就剩下電源的部分，電源的部分因為舊有電源比較不穩定，我們現在準備……"],["黃委員國昌：你要講電源就來講電源，上次我就講了，發包的時候沒有做好就開始東拉西扯說電源有問題，然後你們之前還編了1.9億，你事情沒做好，國家還要再編預算，花1.9億讓你去改善電源。我們來看一下，你們本來是追加1.87億，這是你們臺鐵本來臺鐵電務智慧化提升計畫裡面的內容，是吧！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我公開質詢完了以後，說這個不能再給同一家特定廠商做，這樣會出事情，說現在要公開招標，說3月要發包，那決標了嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：還沒有決標。"],["馮總經理輝昇：網路的決標了。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要發包？還要再拖多久？我再講一次，你們112年回函的內容是什麼？遮斷桿沒有電流不足的問題，結果現在廠商東西搞不好，廠商東西搞不好，我們政府解決的方法很簡單，納稅人的錢拿來花，我再編預算讓你改善電流。現在我有一個最根本的問題，這個廠商當初在投標的時候，他不知道既有客觀環境是什麼，你們當初還跟這個廠商講不要去牽拖電流的事情，結果現在最後政府讓步了，政府讓步，解決的方法是什麼？用納稅人的錢來編，用納稅人的錢去幫這個廠商。之前給你四億多都搞不定，不僅遲延，安全還有問題，現在解決的方法非常簡單，我再編預算、再給你錢搞，我為什麼說納稅人看不懂，我們政府很有錢啦，預算這樣亂編、亂花都沒有關係，從頭到尾沒有人要負責嘛！我有說錯嗎？錢這樣花，整個交通部看也沒有關係，臺鐵也沒有人要負責！"],["主席：謝謝。臺鐵該改善的還很多，次長跟總經理可能要先整體再思考一下，有很多問題，我之前問過的也很多問題沒有解決。","現在請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","何欣純","游顥","王美惠","葉元之","黃健豪","沈發惠","翁曉玲"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蔡其昌等17人、二、委員林宜瑾等27人、三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人及四、委員徐富癸\n等17人分別擬具「國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例第十條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143401_00012"}}},{"id":"159880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c41b1a0504d137e56ced2eb6a9553c04daa51b2df98f8e7f9acb4c1531107a791a8b0863b4c8fed05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:15:30 - 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主席謝謝 麻煩請吳次長請次長"},{"start":15.128,"end":36.234,"text":"市長台鐵最重要除了安全還是安全那我們不希望說有發生任何的一個事故但這一次清明年假其實台鐵也發生兩起媒體有報導的意外事故其中有一個是在台中太原站有普悠瑪號因為有落軌的意外有沒有查清"},{"start":37.478,"end":63.346,"text":"事實真相為何?是我跟委員報告這一個案件是發生在剛剛講就清明這個年假那天我們把那個錄影帶調出來可以看得出來他是輕生的也就是說他在那個月台等著那個類似快進站的時候快到的時候他突然往月台裡面跳他並不是一個意外的跌落好"},{"start":64.54,"end":86.037,"text":"所以這是親身的一個事故是但不管怎麼樣在現在的過程裡面其實很多人更想要了解的是台鐵的公司化一年多的時間了那有沒有把我們相關的不管是準點不管是我們最基本的安全有沒有到位"},{"start":87.379,"end":94.568,"text":"市長 了不了解我們公司化之後我們的一個統計的狀況準點率所以我跟委員報告"},{"start":97.469,"end":118.059,"text":"過去去年大概從2013年成立嘛它的準點力過去跟過去來比事故事件確實是比過去稍微多一點公司化之後反而比過去還要多對 但是主要大概有兩個有一個原因比較大原因就是剛講天然災害去年的那個地震比較多一路清的部分比較多就像剛剛講的"},{"start":119.099,"end":143.986,"text":"那過去我們也發生過有那個車子他會開到我們的那個從頻道裡面開到我們軌道裡面去那個你開到裡面去我們不曉得他為什麼開到裡面去一耽擱就耽擱了一千多分那像這個如果把這個排除以後啊我們的準點率其實還可以到97.5來 市長媒體有幫你做統計跟報導準點率公司化之後下降了再來"},{"start":147.461,"end":169.954,"text":"近十年異常的行車意外跟件數上升了2024年這都是客觀的數據你剛剛特別提到去年四月有大地震所以四月之後有可能因為天災的狀況而造成我們這個準點率比較低好那我們來看一下前三個月也沒有達標啊"},{"start":172.093,"end":195.118,"text":"四月之前四月發生地震所以你說四月五月六月給你三個月的時間讓你比較寬鬆沒錯嘛你看到四月的時候他突然降到81%就代表是說確實有受到天災的影響我不否認但是一月二月三月的時候你也比之前還要來的低啊所以不要推給天災"},{"start":197.321,"end":207.527,"text":"天災沒有辦法控制但重點在於是說我們當初要求或說期待的是台鐵要公司化之後能夠準點能夠安全能夠到位"},{"start":208.615,"end":226.851,"text":"到目前為止有做到嗎來 市長本席一直關心 因為一直都在交通委員會我們0402的太魯閣號的事故確實大家都非常的難過也是讓台鐵真的公司化的一個很重要的關鍵我們"},{"start":228.912,"end":248.886,"text":"4月2號我也出席了我是唯一一位立法委員出席我們當天晚上的紀念音樂會但是本席當天其實也有感覺到為什麼大家也都在討論我們花了八千多萬去做所謂的燈光的吊唸紀念"},{"start":250.526,"end":277.857,"text":"台鐵這兩天被大家全都砲轟講說安全沒有到位準點沒有到位人員的改善沒有到位工作環境沒有到位我們還多花八千多萬金額高低一回事可是台鐵現在給我們的解釋居然講說是家屬的建議又要推給家屬啊家屬情何以堪啊台鐵做的決定然後現在講說是家屬的建議那大家是要再針對家屬嗎市長"},{"start":280.697,"end":303.672,"text":"能不能說句公道話 到底我們現在花了這八千多萬有沒有把錢花在刀口上我跟委員報告 確實這個案子外面的外界對這部分都有一些意見但我跟委員報告 這個原來的案子我們最早是希望在當地就事故地點立碑的方式"},{"start":304.372,"end":326.362,"text":"那當然那時候跟家屬在討論的時候他們認為這個太過於傳統他們希望一個不一樣的所以後來才變成協調是由所謂的在隧道裡面設置燈光的方式那因為它比較偏遠所以它的相關的一些單價還有必須在就是停班以後才可以施作所以相對的一些這個費用會比較高一點"},{"start":327.122,"end":356.177,"text":"我想這是讓我們台鐵一定記得這樣的一個事情就是四年前的0402的問題當成我們的一個最大的教訓我想在安全的方面台鐵的改革是永無止境的當然台鐵改革是永無止境的但重點是用了大家都記得我還記得那個時候就是在清明連假結束之後的交通委員會9點28分到的時候大家都在討論"},{"start":358.339,"end":386.318,"text":"我們也希望能夠台鐵永遠記得這樣的一個事故不是說用經費用這個燈光重點是改革嘛 安全嘛好 所以 來 市長想請教一下怎麼會突然間讓大家也覺得很訝異董事長就請辭了那我們備位的董事長您這邊是站帶嘛無預警的提出請辭這也讓大家覺得說很訝異啊"},{"start":387.642,"end":405.699,"text":"有沒有去了解 來是不是說明一下你的代理會代理多久代理還不曉得目前在尋找適合的管理人所以董事長的請辭沒有給我們交通部有任何找紀委人選的時間他就是要離開"},{"start":409.005,"end":431.625,"text":"他是生涯規劃啦我瞭解是這樣子我看到啦你們新聞稿寫生涯規劃嘛是但重點在於是說台鐵公司這麼重要重要重要是啊那怎麼會我相信以董事長之前也是一輩子的台鐵人了是那連多一點時間給我們交通部去找說專業的董事長來接任也不願意"},{"start":433.692,"end":460.747,"text":"中間溝通出了什麼問題我所理解的應該不是這樣子啦我想這個過去他有提出來那當然我們有一直在慰留他嘛那因為他後面的行程已經排定了所以我們大概只能尊重他所以你預計代理多久也不知道應該很快什麼時候能夠提出來人選你是次長你總該可以了解吧沒辦法跟委員報告你這算是救火是不是"},{"start":462.097,"end":484.076,"text":"這是目前因為現在還沒有一個適合人選那先由我來暫時代理是嗎所以你講到重點嘛在於是說台鐵的公司那麼重要合適的人選還沒有找到然後就任董事長就離開然後讓你要來代理那我們行政部門或說我們民進黨政府到底打台鐵公司當然是什麼我想這個部分最後來"},{"start":486.121,"end":512.484,"text":"我看到我們台鐵公司剛滿一年但是向交通部要提出希望能夠爭取公司考積列甲等但目前掛牌首年虧損了137億點多事故又更多大多數又是人為的事故所以市長是台鐵爭取考積列甲等交通部會同意嗎"},{"start":514.481,"end":541.007,"text":"這個交通部沒有既定的立場因為這個考程還有相關的規定這個列出來是前董事長的指示還是你的指示這是他們把過去之前嘛對 之前的時候就已經依照各個指標然後把指標送上來那由交通部先做一個初審那你現在接代理董事長你滿意現在台鐵的指標嗎當然 我覺得看到剛剛的事故有改善的空間"},{"start":543.022,"end":566.03,"text":"有改善的空間有努力的空間換言之其實到目前為止國人在一年了公司化還是沒有感受到台鐵有脫胎換骨改善的決心更不要講是我們今天還在討論你要活化資產不是不能活化公司化本來就是有更彈性的空間但重點"},{"start":567.51,"end":592.107,"text":"請真的不要忘記因為後面還有其他委員要質詢本席只想強調請不要忘記不管是公司的話不管是台鐵大家對你的期待其實重點在於是安全安全還是安全沒有做到安全什麼都是白談是不要本末倒置不要讓國人覺得台鐵記取事故教訓只是射燈光"},{"start":594.198,"end":600.872,"text":"只是每年行李如宜而沒有真真正正把台鐵的改革放在心上是謝謝是 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":42,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時15分）主席謝謝，麻煩請伍次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，臺鐵最重要的除了安全還是安全，畢竟我們不希望發生任何的事故。但媒體報導，這次清明連假臺鐵發生了兩起意外事故，其中一件是在臺中太原站普悠瑪號所遇到的落軌意外，你們有沒有查清事實真相為何？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這個案件發生在清明連假期間，把錄影帶調出來後可以看出他是輕生的，也就是說他在月臺等列車進站快到的時候，突然往月臺裡面跳，所以並非意外跌落。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這是一起輕生事故？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：不管怎麼樣，現在很多人更想了解的是，臺鐵公司化已經一年多了，不管是準點或最基本的安全等相關事項有沒有到位？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，了不了解臺鐵公司化之後相關數據的統計狀況？譬如準點率？"],["伍次長勝園：是，跟委員報告，臺鐵公司從113年成立，跟過去相比，事故事件確實比過去稍微多一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：公司化之後反而比過去還要多？"],["伍次長勝園：對，主要原因大概有兩個，其中一個比較大的原因是天然災害。就像剛剛講的，去年地震比較多、異物入侵比較多。過去也發生過汽車從平交道開進軌道，我們根本不曉得為什麼汽車會開到裡面去，所以一耽擱就耽擱了一千多分鐘。若把這種狀況排除，我們的準點率其實達到97.5%。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，其實媒體有幫你做統計跟報導，準點率在公司化之後下降了！再來，近十年異常的行車意外與件數上升了，尤其是2024年，這都是客觀的數據。你剛剛特別提到去年4月有大地震，所以4月之後有可能因為天災而造成準點率比較低。好，我們來看一下，前三個月其實也沒有達標！4月發生地震，所以給你三個月時間，4月、5月、6月讓你比較寬鬆。沒錯，4月的時候突然降到81%，代表確實有受到天災影響，這點我不否認。問題是，1月、2月、3月的準點率也比之前來得低，所以不要推給天災，天災沒有辦法控制！重點在於，我們當初要求、也期待臺鐵公司化之後能夠準點、能夠安全、能夠到位，到目前為止有做到嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：是，委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席一直都在交通委員會，一直很關心0402太魯閣號出軌事故，這確實讓大家都非常難過，也是臺鐵公司化的重要關鍵。4月2日那天我也出席了，我是唯一一位出席當天晚上紀念音樂會的立法委員。本席當天有發現為什麼大家都在討論臺鐵花了八千多萬做所謂的燈光悼念紀念？以致這兩天臺鐵被大家砲轟，說臺鐵安全沒有到位、準點沒有到位、人員改善沒有到位、工作環境沒有到位，居然還多花八千多萬？金額高低是一回事，但臺鐵竟然解釋說，這是家屬的建議。又要推給家屬？讓家屬情何以堪！這是臺鐵做的決定，現在卻說是家屬的建議，難道大家要再針對家屬嗎？次長，能不能說句公道話？到底這八千多萬有沒有花在刀口上？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，確實，外界確實對這個案子有一些意見。跟委員報告，原來我們最早是希望在事故地點立碑，在跟家屬在討論時，他們認為太過於傳統，他們希望有一個不一樣的方式，後來才協調成在隧道裡設置燈光，但因為比較偏遠，所以在單價上……且必須停班以後才可以施作，導致相對的費用會比較高一點，我想這是讓我們臺鐵一定要記得這樣的事情，就是把4年前的0402事故當成我們一個最大的教訓，我想在安全方面臺鐵的改革是永無止境的。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然臺鐵改革是永無止境啦！但重點是大家都要記得，我還記得在清明連假結束之後的交通委員會，9點28分到的時候大家都在討論，我們也希望臺鐵能夠永遠記得這樣一個事故，但並不是說用經費、用燈光，重點是改革嘛！安全嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以次長，想請教一下，讓大家也覺得很訝異的是，怎麼會突然間董事長就請辭了？我們備位的董事長，您這邊是暫代嘛，董事長無預警的提出請辭，也讓大家覺得很訝異，有沒有去了解？是不是說明一下？你的代理會代理多久？"],["伍次長勝園：代理多久還不曉得，目前在尋找適合的管理者……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以董事長的請辭沒有給交通部任何找繼位人選的時間？他就是要離開？"],["伍次長勝園：他是因為生涯規劃，以我的了解是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：我看了啦，你們的新聞稿寫的是生涯規劃，但重點在於是臺鐵公司重不重要？重要！"],["伍次長勝園：重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那怎麼會……我相信董事長之前也是一輩子的臺鐵人了，連多一點時間給我們交通部去找專業的董事長來接任也不願意？中間溝通出了什麼問題？"],["伍次長勝園：我所理解的應該不是這樣子啦，過去他也有提出，當然我們有一直在慰留他嘛，因為他後面的行程已經排定了，所以我們大概也只能尊重他。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你預計代理多久也不知道？"],["伍次長勝園：應該很快。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠提出人選？你是次長，你總該可以瞭解吧？"],["伍次長勝園：這個我沒辦法跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：你這算是救火，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：就是因為現在還沒有一個適合的人選，就先由我來暫時代理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，所以你講到重點了，臺鐵公司那麼重要，合適的人選還沒有找到，舊任董事長就離開了，然後讓你要來代理，請問行政部門，或者是說民進黨政府到底把臺鐵公司當成是什麼？"],["伍次長勝園：我想這個部分應該是……"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，我看到臺鐵公司掛牌剛滿一年，但是向交通部提出希望能夠爭取公司考績列甲等，目前掛牌首年虧損了一百三十七億多，事故又更多，大多數又是人為的事故，所以次長，臺鐵爭取考績列甲等，交通部會同意嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：這個部分交通部沒有既定的立場，因為考成是有相關的規定，它把他們相關……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個列出來是前董事長的指示還是你的指示？"],["伍次長勝園：這是他們把過去……"],["洪委員孟楷：之前嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：對，之前，那時候就已經依照各個指標把資料送上來，由交通部先做一個初審。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在接代理董事長，你滿意現在臺鐵的指標嗎？看到剛剛的事故……"],["伍次長勝園：當然，我是覺得有改善的空間，有努力的空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：有改善的空間、有努力的空間？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：換言之，其實到目前為止，國人在臺鐵公司化一年後還是沒有感受到臺鐵有脫胎換骨改善的決心……"],["伍次長勝園：但我想跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：更不要講我們今天還在討論你要活化資產，不是不能活化，公司化本來就是有更彈性的空間，但重點請真的不要忘記，因為後面還有其他委員要質詢，本席只想強調，請不要忘記，不管是公司化，不管是大家對臺鐵的期待，其實重點是在於安全、安全還是安全，沒有做到安全什麼都是白談！不要本末倒置，不要讓國人覺得臺鐵記取事故教訓只是設置燈光、只是每年行禮如儀，而沒有真真正正把臺鐵的改革放在心上。"],["伍次長勝園：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra 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改善行人的這一個去訂定一個補助的標準 考核的標準我不知道你們做了沒做得如何跟委員報告啦 因為過去 去年才剛執行第一期啦那所以它其實相關的考核是今年才會開始那所以 而且是在鼓勵提案"},{"start":270.649,"end":296.283,"text":"所以我們是先在目前為止都先用鼓勵提案的概念先鼓勵地方政府下去做我跟你講齁去年我去年你們去看你回去看我的諮詢我就諮詢我就要求啦你一開始做我就發現問題啦我是不是就覺得這個有問題啊你們要去做啊對不對你們現在的要求地方積極的來地方就給你報一堆案子來"},{"start":297.469,"end":322.171,"text":"到最後第一個沒有能力做第二個他報給你的案子跟他實際執行的內容是不一樣的啊對不對我是不是在去年就講了我說像這種的你就下次要補助你可以不給他你管他是什麼市長啊我們要把錢花在刀口上欸他給你申請人行道結果他就完全去做綠美化結果把人行道搞得亂七八糟"},{"start":323.607,"end":341.39,"text":"這樣合理嗎我覺得這筆錢就不能這樣花啊對這個我們在審查的過程當中都會去抓出這些問題都會去抓出這些問題不是除了抓出問題之外我是不是要請你們要做一個考核的標又不是我錢給他的你就不管"},{"start":341.67,"end":360.924,"text":"喔 不會 這我們事後都會去考核因為中間都會有列管的會議啊不是啦 阿里你事後考核他都已經發包出去了然後地方的發包他就依地方政府的發包去執行了啊等於他報給你中央是A計畫他地方執行的B計畫 對不對"},{"start":362.825,"end":365.327,"text":"那個B計畫發包的人已經來不及處理了根本我們在設計階段都會有審查都會要他把設計的報告會送過來我們會再做實際的檢查來確認他的預算的內容我就舉一個例子給你啊我們新北就很多啊對不對那像我就跟你講啦我們的長江路對不對他報給你A計畫他做的是B計畫啊對不對"},{"start":388.042,"end":414.528,"text":"像那種計畫的話就是說我們只能合我們要求的這一個部分我只能給你我的部分至於你要額外增加的一些綠美化那就是你自己的經費要去做處理我們通常都會把它切開來經費處理是一件事情我們對配合你的生活圈道路你的什麼還有你主要幹道15分鐘之內要到交流道什麼這都是你們的政策對不對他的人行道"},{"start":415.566,"end":429.239,"text":"如果亂做影響到車流你那個15分鐘的計畫能達成嗎這個是環環相扣的你不要以為這一個降下去就沒事我覺得這個不對我舉我剛舉"},{"start":434.279,"end":449.697,"text":"長江路的例子就是全國也有很多這樣啊沒有縣市長那麼笨啦我跟您要一筆錢然後我自己再多加一點然後我來做什麼綠美化或做什麼我跟你講塞車是你的問題啦綠美化是我的政績啦"},{"start":450.917,"end":475.404,"text":"可以這樣嗎這筆錢重複的這樣子就會受到很大的影響所以我才說要做一個管考我覺得這一點真的很重要我想這個我們在現行的管考我想會把委員這個意見我們再加進來來檢視一下這些計畫的合理性應該是說它的內容的合理性你上次就這樣跟我講了是 這個我們其實在管考會議都有在討論"},{"start":476.804,"end":498.971,"text":"我覺得這是一個要嚴肅去面對的問題啦既然有這筆錢我們希望他花的好啦而不是這樣子你如果把他執行的好我跟你講我不相信有哪個立委要再來說這筆錢怎麼樣做的不好怎麼樣我跟你講他如果這樣子敢這樣子講如果你把他管考好的話全台灣都看得出他的成果的時候誰會去說這個不好"},{"start":503.388,"end":521.454,"text":"我覺得他自己就要就要面對人家的檢驗哪一個人能夠睜眼說瞎話我覺得你只要做得好人家就無法挑剔你啦所以在這樣的情況下像現在啦現在啦再給我30秒現在"},{"start":523.567,"end":548.008,"text":"你所有的前瞻計畫如果有-1萬這樣子你很多的補助沒了喔是不是很多都沒了很多都沒了你們會不會挪用這些去填那裡不會因為兩個預算獎執行內容不一樣我知道執行內容我們在行政機關那麼久了啦可以怎麼樣我們大家都清楚我的意思是說"},{"start":550.163,"end":558.497,"text":"該什麼樣的就是什麼樣的不要去做別的啦反正前瞻計畫被刪了現在已經是事實了"},{"start":559.472,"end":581.792,"text":"不能給的就不能給了我覺得也只能這樣啦我們這筆錢我們這筆錢應該用在他原來的地方地方你管他什麼幾期幾期那個另外想辦法也不是現在可以解決的前瞻一直沒有通過的話大概不是只有要核定的案子會受影響可能連執行中的"},{"start":582.452,"end":602.527,"text":"都會受影響執行中的也會受影響那你執行中的你現在也沒辦法啊你內政部你也不可能拿出其他的錢來啦你反而要趕快讓地方知道錢就已經到這裡了要怎麼收要怎麼去那個可以現在處理你不要現在不處理到時候又衍生一堆問題來我覺得應該是這樣子錢都已經被刪了啊"},{"start":608.371,"end":637.19,"text":"對不對 你不可能去伸出錢來吧沒錯 所以我們其實在之前的管考會議都已經有通知地方政府了就是原來預計核定的案子都停下來那執行中的案子我們就撥付到一定程度我們就不再撥款對 要先跟他們講我覺得這個要讓地方也有一個應變那像我們今天在討論的這個我必須要說一句如果預算沒解凍 你要先跟他們講"},{"start":638.371,"end":662.039,"text":"是沒有就是沒有啦不要現在他說他要繼續發包到時候發包完再跟你講說他已經發包了我覺得不應該欸這個是浪費錢欸浪費地方政府的錢欸他不要再去做任何發包的程序了了解因為生活圈是一個長期的計畫對一旦有中間有一個預算受到影響其實他連帶後面整個受影響"},{"start":662.899,"end":687.691,"text":"但我的意思就是說你說的是沒有錯但是如果你他會地方政府有的或承辦的他沒有去管他他就先照計畫去發包那你發包完了反正也沒錢第一個浪費你去發包的錢第二個你沒有錢下來你反而衍生一堆問題到時候承包商到時候要來找你們什麼我跟你講他到時候會推給你內政部說內政部就沒給我錢"},{"start":690.608,"end":703.061,"text":"這些我認為現在都要去預備我們這個預算這樣子因為我們剛也問了就是說行政院內政部也還沒有辦法去確確算出多少錢來我們也沒有去做解凍的問題"},{"start":704.164,"end":732.11,"text":"那沒有在這個情況之下我跟你講現在已經四月了啦可以預期今年很多都不能做了啦也做不了了啦不要浪費人民的納稅錢你反而要他們集中精力做哪些可以做的那這些長期計劃性的看明年的預算可以明年再補給他們我覺得這樣子才是解決問題啦不然你會變成中央跟地方空耗"},{"start":732.987,"end":739.641,"text":"沒有錢的空號這我們已經有在檢討會議跟地方政府做說明請讓議委因應 謝謝好 謝謝張宏祿召委 下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時42分）我請署長。"],["主席：署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，當然每個委員有每個委員的立場，但剛剛也有委員質詢時提到你們就是都做得不好，所以刪你們的預算，要來解凍要看條件，要好的話才要解凍，這個話你認同嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這是中央跟地方通力才能解決的問題，今天也不一定說預算編列得非常多，地方政府就能夠完全執行，因為大家執行的量能都有一定的程度。我們每年都在做這部分的考核，不斷地在檢討地方政府提案的內容，尤其做人行道是一個很辛苦的事情，因為現有的道路已經以車行為主，要再改成人行的話，地方政府在執行的過程當中，我們也體會它要跟民眾溝通的一些困難，所以每年都會不斷地去檢討考核，看看它的提案數量。其實大家都已經盡力在執行，這部分也不能單方面只看一個數字，還是要去看執行後的效果，所以到目前來講，我們認為我們執行的成果是非常的好。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，你認為你的執行成果好，可是人家剛剛有的委員就認為你的執行不好，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個也不是我說的，對不對？剛剛你自己有沒有聽清楚，有沒有？你剛剛有沒有聽清楚？"],["吳署長欣修：有。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，所以我剛剛問你的、我請教你的，他說你們執行不好，所以刪你們的預算、凍結你們的預算，你們要做好再來。我只問你，這個你贊不贊成？"],["吳署長欣修：其實我反而是覺得要替地方政府再講得更清楚……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，你只要回答我贊不贊成？"],["吳署長欣修：因為其實我們執行的效果是非常的好。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你只要回答我，你贊不贊成？"],["吳署長欣修：其實我是比較尷尬啦。"],["張委員宏陸：你比較尷尬？我為什麼要問你這個？我為什麼要問你這個？"],["吳署長欣修：我只能說我們盡力去處理。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，我為什麼要問你這個？我跟你講，每個委員的看法都有他的道理，他要刪你的預算，有人說是亂刪、有人說什麼……我覺得各自表述無妨，但我是不大認同。為什麼我不大認同呢？要看要看全國，你不能只看你的地方，因為你們這些案子都是跟縣市政府合作的吧，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：每個縣市政府的能力、態度不一樣吧？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：啊？"],["吳署長欣修：的確是這樣。"],["張委員宏陸：我還以為你說「錯」咧，沒錯還是錯？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好。每個縣市政府的積極度、能力、種種條件都不一樣，你不能用很差的縣市政府來說全國都這樣，所以你看一個報表或是一個數據來刪這個預算或是做為解凍的依據，我個人認為不公平，對於積極任事的縣市首長是一個非常不公平的事情。本來就做不好的，我說真的，你要去凍它或是要怎麼樣，我覺得還說得過去，但很多是積極在做的吧，是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：其實大多數都非常、非常積極。"],["張委員宏陸：你也不要跟我講「大多數」啦！坦白跟你講，署長，你說「大多數」這就是官話了，我們看得出來有的就不積極，有的也是亂搞，對不對？我在一年前，請你們對改善行人通行安全的人行道工程，去訂定一個補助跟考核的標準，我不知道你們做了沒有，做得如何？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為去年才剛執行第一期，相關的考核今年才會開始，而且是在鼓勵提案，所以我們到目前為止都是用鼓勵提案的概念，先鼓勵地方政府下去做……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，我跟你講，你回去看我的質詢，去年我質詢時就要求了……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你一開始做我就發現問題了，我是不是就跟你說這個有問題，你們要去訂定考核的標準，對不對？你們現在要求地方積極做，地方就跟你報一堆案子來，到最後，第一個，沒有能力做；第二個，它報給你的案子跟它實際執行的內容是不一樣的，對不對？我是不是在去年就講了，我說像這一種的，下次要補助你就可以不給它，你管他是什麼市長啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們要把錢花在刀口上耶！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：它跟你申請人行道，結果完全去做綠美化，把人行道搞得亂七八糟，這樣合理嗎？我覺得這筆錢就不能這樣花。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們在審查的過程當中都會去抓出這些問題。"],["張委員宏陸：都會去抓出這些問題？"],["吳署長欣修：對、對。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不是，除了抓出問題之外，我是不是說請你們要做一個考核的標準，而不是錢給它了就不管。"],["吳署長欣修：不會，我們事後都會去考核，因為中間都會有列管的會議，會有列管跟檢討的會議。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，你事後考核，它都已經發包出去了，然後就依地方政府的發包去執行了啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是，因為我們說明……"],["張委員宏陸：等於它報給中央的是A計畫，地方執行的是B計畫，對不對？那B計畫它發包了，你已經來不及處理啦。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們在設計階段都有審查，都會要它把設計的報告送過來，我們會再實際檢查來確認它的預算內容。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，我就舉一個例子給你，我們新北就有很多，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我就跟你講，像我們的長江路，它報給你A計畫，它做的是B計畫，對不對？這樣可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：像那一種計畫，我們只能核我們要求的部分，我只能給你我的部分，至於你要額外增加的一些綠美化，那就是要用你自己的經費去處理，我們通常都會把它切開來。"],["張委員宏陸：不，經費處理是一件事情，對於配合你的生活圈道路，還有主要幹道15分鐘之內要到交流道等等，這些都是你們的政策，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：它的人行道如果亂做，影響到車流，你那個15分鐘的計畫能達成嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：了解，我想……"],["張委員宏陸：這是環環相扣的呢！對不對？你不要以為這樣下去就沒事，而且我覺得這個不對，我剛剛舉長江路的例子，全國也有很多這樣的狀況，沒有縣市長那麼笨啦，我跟你要一筆錢，然後我自己再多加一點來做什麼綠美化或是做什麼，我跟你講，塞車是你的問題，綠美化是我的政績啦，可以這樣嗎？這筆錢這樣使用就會受到很大的影響，所以我才說要做管考，對不對？我覺得這一點真的很重要。"],["吳署長欣修：是。我想我們會在現行的管考裡面，把委員這個意見再加進來，來檢視一下這些計畫的合理性，應該是說它的內容的合理性。"],["張委員宏陸：你上次就是這樣跟我講的。"],["吳署長欣修：是、是，這個我們其實在管考會議都有在討論。"],["張委員宏陸：不，我覺得這是一個要嚴肅面對的問題，既然有這筆錢，我們希望它花得好，而不是這樣子，如果執行得好，我跟你講，我不相信有哪個立委會再來說這筆錢怎麼樣做得不好，如果你管考好，全臺灣都看得出成果的時候，誰會去說這個不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得他自己就要面對人家的檢驗，哪一個人能夠睜眼說瞎話？我覺得你只要做得好，人家就無法挑剔你。現在這樣的情況，以覆議案的結果來看，很多前瞻計畫的補助都沒有了。"],["吳署長欣修：對，前瞻。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是很多都沒了？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：很多都沒了，你們會不會挪用這些去填那裡？"],["吳署長欣修：不會，因為兩個預算項目執行內容不一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道執行內容，我們在行政機關那麼久了，可以怎麼樣我們大家都清楚，我的意思是該什麼樣的就是什麼樣的。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：不要去做別的，反正前瞻計畫被刪了已經是事實，不能給的就不能給了，我覺得也只能這樣。我們這筆錢應該用在它原來的地方你管，地方什麼幾期，那個另外想辦法，也不是現在可以解決的。"],["吳署長欣修：前瞻一直沒有通過的話，大概不只有要核定的案子會受影響，可能連執行中的都會受影響。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！我剛剛就是說……"],["吳署長欣修：對，執行中的也會受影響。"],["張委員宏陸：那執行中的，你現在也沒辦法啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：內政部也不可能拿出其他的錢來了。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：你反而要趕快讓地方知道，錢就已經到這裡了。現在可以處理的是要怎麼收尾，你不要現在不處理，到時候又衍生一堆問題，我覺得應該是這樣子。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：錢都已經被刪了，你也不可能生出錢來吧？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，所以我們在之前的管考會議都已經有通知地方政府了，就是原來預計核定的案子都停下來，執行中的案子我們就撥付到一定程度就不再撥款。"],["張委員宏陸：對！要先跟他們講，我覺得這個要讓地方也有一個應變。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：像我們今天在討論的這個，我必須要說一句，如果預算沒解凍，你要先跟他們講欸！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有就是沒有啦！"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個都已經有跟他們報告。"],["張委員宏陸：不要現在它繼續發包，到時候發包完再跟你講它已經發包了。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得不應該，這個是浪費地方政府的錢，不要讓它再去做任何發包的程序了。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，因為生活圈是一個長期的計畫。"],["張委員宏陸：對。"],["吳署長欣修：一旦中間有一個預算受到影響，其他連帶後面整個受影響。"],["張委員宏陸：是，我的意思就是你說的沒有錯，但是如果有的地方政府或承辦的沒去管它，就先照計畫去發包，發包完了反正也沒錢，第一個浪費發包的錢；第二個沒有錢下來，反而衍生一堆問題，承包商到時候會來找你們要錢，因為地方會推給內政部，說內政部就沒給錢。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這些我認為現在都要去預備。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：現在預算是這樣子，剛剛我也問了，就是行政院、內政部也還沒有辦法確切算出是多少錢，我們也沒辦法去做解凍的問題，我跟你講，現在已經4月了，可以預期今年很多都不能做了。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：也做不了了啦！不要浪費人民的納稅錢，你反而要他們集中精力做那些可以做的，這些長期性的計畫，如果明年的預算可以，明年再補給他們，我覺得這樣子才是解決問題。"],["吳署長欣修：是，有跟地方政府說明。"],["張委員宏陸：不然會變成中央跟地方空耗──沒有錢的空耗。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們已經有在檢討會議跟地方政府說明，請他們預有因應。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","張啓楷","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、交通部就「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143401_00011"}}},{"id":"159878","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159878","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c41b1a0504d137e5ec513577e0c162245410e0cc1efc9f30dc77f2ee5fba4e3fa3b7e37fb90921e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:30:45 - 09:41:50","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2025-04-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、交通部就「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次議案係114年度內政部國土管理署及所屬「生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫(市區道路)」業務費預算解凍條件之檢討改善專案報告】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-07","start_time":"2025-04-07T09:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-07T09:41:50+08:00","duration":665,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.14409375,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.544718750000001,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.93659375,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.134718750000001,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.10909375,"end":63.109718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.39659375,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.05034375000001,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.05846875,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.80909375,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.12784375000001,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.03159375000001,"end":104.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.55471875,"end":108.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.60471875,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.46471875,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.92409375000001,"end":122.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.22284375000001,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.45909375000001,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.70909375000002,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.10096875000002,"end":146.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.15159375000002,"end":146.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.61846875,"end":165.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.81096875,"end":176.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.78909375,"end":170.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.18471875,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.02409375000002,"end":179.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.61471875,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.83409375000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.10221875000002,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.35909375,"end":199.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.32471875000002,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.22721875000002,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.91409375,"end":208.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.25096875000003,"end":216.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.26284375,"end":220.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.85721875000002,"end":221.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.05971875,"end":241.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.55159375000002,"end":232.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.49534375000002,"end":241.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.54596875000001,"end":241.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.59659375,"end":291.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.91784375000003,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.08596875,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.76784375,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.78784375000004,"end":354.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.57471875000005,"end":365.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.31971875000005,"end":397.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.58909375,"end":412.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.03409375,"end":412.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.70909375,"end":412.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.31659375000004,"end":413.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.35034375000004,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.53971875,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.34909375,"end":428.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.89221875000004,"end":433.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.43159375000005,"end":437.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.16096875000005,"end":438.35909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.51096875,"end":454.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.82909375,"end":466.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.84409375,"end":471.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.40909375,"end":470.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.02784375000005,"end":479.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.73659375000005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這個原因有兩個第一個就是說因為我們過去在跨人行道的標準的時候道路寬度是要超過8米以上甚至要到12米以上12米我們才會要求那後來大家"},{"start":306.843,"end":329.894,"text":"各位為了這個行人的安全問題所以我們統一把它下修了那這八米路以後八米路也可以化人像所以你的分母變大第二個尤其在新北因為這幾年新開發案比較多像這個溫宅駿這一類的開發案比較多所以它化設的道路的數量又增加了所以它整個分母都變大所以才會呈現但事實上我們可給新北市的計畫其實"},{"start":330.954,"end":353.959,"text":"一向都核給的數量是蠻多的啦所以我想大概以永續行人的話大概我們每一年大概都會有9件到15件之間啦那所以都是協助新北市政府去不斷的在提升這樣的一個道路品質那所以我想這個計畫都有賴於大院這邊盡量的支持我們我們都還是會盡量協助地方那至於有一些是在"},{"start":355.14,"end":364.931,"text":"飛六都的部分他們對於提升道路品質的部分的要求就會比較高也就改善現在道路品質不佳的部分那這個是屬於前瞻的部分這個也需要大院這邊來協助"},{"start":366.383,"end":390.203,"text":"是好那我再請教一下請教這個署長一下那未來我們現在很多不管是在這個市區道路或是人行道路的部分的改善那剛剛有提到從我們會從提升道路品質計劃改後續前瞻在114年度會借其改成永續提升行人安全計劃來接棒每年大概會有100多億的這個預算案那未來不管是"},{"start":390.823,"end":412.135,"text":"我們改善的一個狀況不管是人行道或是道路的改善有沒有一個這個成效的評估的一個來檢討的部分就是我們修完這些道路或人行道以後有沒有可能給人民或者是給一些一些外部單位來做一些審核所以我們現在修完有沒有多的經費審核完了以後的一個品質的一個檢驗"},{"start":413.593,"end":430.709,"text":"感謝委員的確我們在過去來講大概都是以一般的檢討會議來就是說我們會委託專家學者那還有一些相關有施工經驗的或是一些身障團體都會去做一些檢視這是第一個那第二個就是說我們也透過這個車禍的車禍的調查"},{"start":433.531,"end":456.765,"text":"也就是說完工前跟完工後的車禍的頻率還有車禍的原因那我們現在也都有在做一些調查分析那確實它以我們之前所調查的成果來講大概以過去113年跟112年相比的話大概平均的車禍的降的數據我印象沒有記錯大概會降低了百分之四十幾%那所以其實它都會有效的改善"},{"start":457.285,"end":470.112,"text":"那至於這整個完整的品質的話我想都還有賴於我們後續會找專家學者跟深藏團體一起來做檢視這個我們會每年都會做出相關的檢查好 謝謝署長 那未來繼續加油好 謝謝署長 我們是請劉思芳 劉部長"},{"start":479.279,"end":504.329,"text":"周委員好部長好我覺得今天開這樣子的專案說明會我覺得我們非常感謝我們召委主席排這樣的案子其實就是希望說很多跟民生相關的一些重要的預算是可以趕快來提出解凍案那我們知道解凍案它是必須一個程序行政院要送到立法院程序委員會才能報院等等這樣的一個"},{"start":505.089,"end":526.754,"text":"部分所以我想要請教部長這邊是不是就我所了解其實開議以後我們就很關心很多的解凍案那我相信各部會其實你所屬的內政部很多部會其實也把解凍案我相信就是很積極想要來處理那我是不是想請教部長你們有沒有一個所謂的時序表或是說有沒有哪一些的部會現在還沒有送案子到你這邊來的"},{"start":529.036,"end":533.457,"text":"跟內政部相關的其他署包括警政、消防、移民等等這些我們的會計單位本來就一體的所以一點都沒有差別導致重要的部分就是說我今天早上有對媒體來說明的部分"},{"start":552.082,"end":569.876,"text":"就是行政院到目前為止對於立法院所有通刪的部分有個636億要行政院自己去自行去處理刪減跟凍結這個部分目前為止還沒有跟立法院達成一個共識就是刪減哪裡凍結哪裡所以我們現在也只能用"},{"start":570.416,"end":591.719,"text":"所有的預算就是以前已經發生過的或是已經持續性的預算如果是新增的部分的話呢包括我們要新增的社會住宅的興建那我已經下令國土署跟我們的住都中心就先暫時不要動因為沒有新預算進來的話我們自己善加利用恐怕會違反我們預算的這個執行的程序"},{"start":592.159,"end":616.084,"text":"所以我還是要請教部長所以因為有些我個人認為有些的這個預算案的凍結有些是書面送出書面就可以解凍有些是要提專案報告才能解凍那這些案子本席是認為說應該就像我們主席昭偉我們今天所提的有些案子是我們認為是可以送進來是不是可不可以請你們內部再溝通檢討看看哪一些"},{"start":618.084,"end":646.997,"text":"有沒有一些案子是可以送進來先解凍報告委員這個就是原等於說這個解凍案如果送進來以後其實這個案子就撤案了嘛那未來在整體的整個政府在所謂的整個預算的使用上其實是可以拆炸彈嘛一個一個炸彈拆可以解開來我認為是可以讓整個政府的效率可以變更佳的報告委員那個立法院的預算解凍程序應該不是像委員所說的先由委員會處理應該是立法院的院會交辦下來沒錯沒錯那我們就按照立法院交辦的程序來處理"},{"start":648.186,"end":658.056,"text":"好那希望說還是我們這邊還是要希望說部長有些比較容易或者民生重大案子的解凍案可以趕快請行政院送到立法院來好嗎好謝謝是好謝謝張志倫委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":180,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時30分）主席好，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請吳署長。"],["主席：吳署長，有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝署長，首先還是要對國土署的辛苦表示感謝。","今天的議程是有關於市區道路品質改善執行效益的檢討，內政部過去一直以來都表示，為了改善我國市區道路品質跟人行環境的安全，已經分別推動相關計畫，以中央現在的計畫來看，第一個是生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫以及提升道路品質計畫，我們有投入大量的預算，尤其自112年起，我們標榜以人為本的規劃理念。首先我們想要請教署長的是，以實際核定人行環境改善相關補助案件的比率來看，106年補助案件中有超過50%是有關於人行環境改善，占比是比較高的，非人行環境改善的占比是比較低的，可是這幾年來這個占比逐漸下滑，從一開始超過50%下滑到112年只有32.67%。我覺得一般人民最關心的，也是過去很多委員所擔心的人行地獄跟高齡者寸步難行的一些問題，是不是可以請教署長，為什麼人民所關心的人行環境改善這個類別在補助案件中的占比從百分之五十幾一直下降到112年的百分之三十三左右？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝，其實委員所問到的是因為我們在政策上做了一個修正，也就是說，過去是把人行跟非人行放在同一個計畫，我們從112年開始分類出危險路口跟人行道的改善，就是在這個項目裡面再分為人行跟非人行，甚至後來再有了「永續」這樣的計畫出來，所以我們把它澈底分成兩個，這樣可以分類清楚，因為在許多道路上，尤其是非六都的，有很多純粹是屬於提升道路品質、改善道路的，有一些是可以做人行道的，過去是混在一起，看起來好像全部都有，事實上，我們再把它做詳細的分類以後，就會像表上所看到的，這個部分好像比較少，但事實上是另外有一個單獨的計畫在執行，是這個意思。"],["張委員智倫：好，請教署長，人行環境改善這個類別，現在主要是以人為本，有沒有機會未來在核定計畫上可以多推動一些？過去在106年的時候，其實它的占比是比較高的嘛，有超過50%，有沒有機會未來在調整的時候還是以人行為主，因為這樣行人才比較容易受惠得到嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解，所以我們現在分兩個計畫以後，在永續類的及校園環境的這個部分，它的經費我們大概每年都有編列120億。當然，如果各縣市政府執行的效果真的很好，我想我們也會再跟行政院來爭取更多經費，但是也要跟委員報告，我們還是希望這些預算能夠讓我們如實的來進行，因為畢竟各縣市政府都是需求非常殷切的……"],["張委員智倫：我瞭解。"],["吳署長欣修：我們的預算如果以後執行好還要再增加的話，我們會再來努力。"],["張委員智倫：沒問題。也跟署長報告，其實我們的提升道路品質計畫過去是用前瞻預算來做，未來就像您所說的，我們會把它改成永續提升人行安全計畫，預算本來是一年五十幾億，也會提升到120億，所以整個預算會大幅提升，我希望未來可以為臺灣被詬病為人行地獄的部分去做一些改善。","第二個，我們手上有一個資料，就是各地方政府市區道路人行道普及率情形，其實這部分還是有一些增增減減，在國土署的人本交通手冊中有載明，過去可能是以車子為主，未來是希望轉型以人為本的道路規劃為主軸，可是六都之一的新北市的人行道普及率，以我們現在手上的資料看起來是有倒退的傾向，大概是倒退了2.7%，是不是可以說明一下新北市目前有申報並獲核定的人行道改善的數量、經費有倒退或被駁回的情形？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，這個原因有兩個，第一個就是說，因為我們過去在劃人行道的標準是道路寬度要超過8米以上，甚至要到12米以上，12米我們才會要求，後來為了行人的安全問題，所以我們統一把它下修了，以後8米路也可以劃人行道，所以你的分母變大了。第二個，尤其在新北，因為這幾年新開發案比較多，像塭仔圳這一類的開發案比較多，劃設道路的數量又增加了，所以整個分母都變大了，因此才會呈現這樣的情況。但事實上對於新北市的計畫，我們一向核給的數量都是滿多的，以永續行人的部分來說，大概每一年都會有9件到15件之間，這都是協助新北市政府不斷的在提升道路的品質。這個計畫有賴於大院這邊儘量來支持我們，我們也會儘量協助地方。","另外有一些是在非六都的部分，他們對於提升道路品質的要求就會比較高，也就是改善現在道路品質不佳的部分，這個是屬於前瞻的部分，也需要大院這邊來協助。"],["張委員智倫：好。我再請教署長，現在很多不管是市區道路或是人行道路的改善，剛剛有提到，我們用前瞻預算來做的提升道路品質計畫將於114年度屆期，後續會改由永續提升行人安全計畫來接棒，每年大概會有一百多億的預算，未來我們改善的狀況，不管是人行道或是道路的改善，有沒有成效評估與檢討的機制？也就是，我們修完這些道路或人行道以後，有沒有可能讓人民或者是一些外部單位來做審核？在我們用了那麼多經費去做改善後，有沒有去審核相關品質的檢驗？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，的確，我們過去大概都是一般的檢討會議，也就是說，我們會委託專家學者及一些有相關施工經驗的人或是一些身障團體等去做一些檢視，這是第一個。第二個，我們也透過車禍調查的方式，也就是說，完工前跟完工後的車禍頻率以及車禍原因，我們現在也都有在做一些調查分析。確實，就我們之前的調查成果，以113年跟112年相比，平均車禍下降的數據，如果我印象沒有錯的話，大概降低了百分之四十幾，所以其實都會有效的改善。至於這整個的完整品質，我想我們後續會找專家學者跟身障團體一起來做檢視，這個我們每年都會做出相關的檢查。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長，未來請繼續加油，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：接下來請劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長好。我們非常感謝召委排這樣的議程，今天召開這樣一個專案報告其實就是希望很多跟民生相關重要預算可以趕快提出解凍案，我們知道解凍案是有一定的程序，必須行政院送到立法院後，程序委員會才有辦法報院，會有這樣一個流程。我想要請教部長的是，因為就我所瞭解，其實在開議以後我們就很關心很多的解凍案，我相信各部會，包括你所屬的內政部，我相信很多部會對於解凍案都是很積極的想要來處理，所以我想請教部長的是，你們有沒有一個所謂的時序表？或是說有沒有哪一些部會到現在還沒有送案子到你這邊來的？"],["劉部長世芳：部會送案子到我這邊？我們就是一個部會啊！"],["張委員智倫：對、對、對，比如國土署等等的，他們不是要先送案子到你這邊，等你核定以後才能繼續報行政院……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，跟內政部相關的其他署，包括警政或者是消防、移民等等這些……"],["張委員智倫：對，警政、消防還有國土。"],["劉部長世芳：我們的會計單位本來就一體的，所以一點都沒有差別，重要的倒是我今天早上有對媒體說明的，就是立法院所有通刪的預算中有636億要行政院自行去處理刪減跟凍結的這個部分，究竟要刪減哪裡或是凍結哪裡，目前為止行政院還沒有跟立法院達成共識，所以現在所有的預算，我們也只能用以前已經發生過的，或者是持續性的預算，如果是新增部分的話，包括新增的社會住宅的興建，我已經下令國土署跟住都中心先暫時不要動，因為沒有新預算進來，而我們自己擅加利用，恐怕會違反預算執行的程序。"],["張委員智倫：還是要請教部長，因為我個人認為預算案的凍結，有些是送出書面就可以解凍，有些是要提專案報告才能解凍，就像我們的主席（召委）今天所提的，有些案子我們認為是可以送進來的，可不可以請你們內部再溝通檢討看看哪一些，難道沒有……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員……"],["張委員智倫：有沒有一些案子是可以送進來先解凍的？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個就是原……"],["張委員智倫：等於說解凍報告送進來以後，其實這個案子就撤案了嘛，那未來政府在整個預算的使用上，其實是可以拆炸彈的，一個一個炸彈拆，可以解開來，我認為可以讓整個政府的效率變更佳的。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，立法院的預算解凍程序應該不是像委員所說的，先由委員會處理，應該是立法院的院會交辦下來……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：我們就按照立法院交辦的程序來處理。"],["張委員智倫：好，但我們這邊還是希望有些比較容易或是重大民生案子的解凍案，可以趕快請行政院送到立法院來，好嗎？謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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有請國土署署長好 請吳新修署長委員好署長好今天的專案報告有看到就是分為三個大面向就是生活圈道路系統檢討還有永續提升行人安全計畫以及"},{"start":37.045,"end":57.982,"text":"提升道路品質但是其中就提到了為了強化行人安全而針對改善行人道路的地方補助計劃根據我們的國土管理署的統計全國市區人行到普及率110年"},{"start":58.863,"end":71.916,"text":"的年底為36.68%112年測為38.4%只有微微增加但是我看到你們的報告裡面的說98 95%以上"},{"start":76.24,"end":90.509,"text":"這樣的數據連預算中心在113年都指出成長幅度非常低落所以請教署長全國市區人行道的普及率是目前是多少還有明確的數據嗎這我想要請教一下"},{"start":98.406,"end":113.105,"text":"跟委員報告我們大概每年因為全台灣當時都市計畫道路開闢的時候人行道德施作比例的確很低那所以我們透過相關的計畫包含生活圈包含提升道路品質那也包含了這一個後來的這一個"},{"start":115.027,"end":133.89,"text":"危險入口的改善以及現在的永續的那我們大概每年都會成長1%多到2%的狀況來進行那因為這樣因為全國各縣市都普遍存在這樣的問題那所以我們的確是用這樣的目標持續在努力那也透過相關的預算在編列"},{"start":135.097,"end":136.558,"text":"但是我沒有看到短期的預期達到的目標過去這個計畫有沒有明確的改善計畫或者是說我們的進度控管還有是考核我是沒有看到 我們看到的報告就是這幾頁就結束了"},{"start":153.924,"end":176.073,"text":"所以感覺剛才也看到還有另外一句說你剛才說成長率就是但是我們的人行道現在列名的什麼地域二名就是我們的人行道這邊好像地域一樣其中社會大眾關心的重點就是說我們人行道的寬度我們寬度"},{"start":178.074,"end":184.46,"text":"還有依據我們的人行道的寬度還有交通量的最低的限制但從110年到113"},{"start":189.039,"end":215.944,"text":"四年近寬不足最低標準的人行道也距離超過兩成所以我們國土署的問題檢討成果都不說都說達成率多少但是這個具體都沒有去講清楚所以我們的預期的什麼時候我們全國就是在低的標準寬度的人行道是在哪裡所以我們"},{"start":216.984,"end":243.657,"text":"沒有看到你們報告裡面跟委員報告其實大約每年在跟大會在大院在做相關的這個預算執行報告其實我們的相關的計畫裡面都已經有提列那因為各縣市所面臨的這樣的問題困難度不一那道路寬度呢也有寬窄不一那所以他要去劃的不管是實體人行道或標線型人行道那或者是施作相關的庇護島"},{"start":244.477,"end":271.171,"text":"每一個道路的條件都不同所以我們每年都在協助地方政府把這些去做加速的執行那我們跟大院報告的是說因為我們的預算執行率每年都高達98%以上顯示我們跟地方政府齊心努力每年都在改善這一些道路的人行道的寬度所以我們剛剛也提到大概每年是以1%到2%之間的比例再往上再提升"},{"start":272.352,"end":280.323,"text":"同時呢也在加速的訂定各項的規則在協助地方政府把這做出來但是我們看到今天是不是要來說成果報告還有檢討報告對不對但是我看你們的檢討跟成果"},{"start":286.164,"end":311.377,"text":"都沒有檢討都是報告如果是做得那麼好的話為什麼你看我們台灣行人五大地獄現象12月的死亡率你自己看嘛所以說我們是說做得那麼好還有說一直在關心的是解凍解凍的費用但是有沒有關心說剛才你說的費用是足的"},{"start":312.458,"end":320.925,"text":"非能讓你做得夠的但是我們看到的是是這樣子的面向跟委員報告其實如果認真要去做改善其實"},{"start":323.356,"end":330.222,"text":"現在的預算不夠 連刪減連解凍都沒有辦法因為事實上地方政府也期待都跟我們一樣就是因為預算執行率夠高才可以跟大院講說我們都覺得預算不夠每年的預算執行率都超過98%以上"},{"start":344.153,"end":354.118,"text":"所以才會希望大院對 預算98%以上執行率不到60%這樣子的話我們才要去更節預算希望說你們要有計畫但是今天我看到的就是報告就是了了幾張就報告了事所以還有就是說我們在國土計畫上一起生活圈的道路裡面我們剛才有說裡面有九個"},{"start":374.129,"end":395.395,"text":"未能如期完工的工程是延到111年到延到116年但是在我們在其中三個案件在112年就是也提出多次的流標又沒有人來去標案所以沒辦法去執行比如說我們彰化大補鄉這邊我們大陸的寬度規劃"},{"start":400.208,"end":413.795,"text":"所以說也是就是就緩慢還有呢我們工程的費用就一路上修原油就是在我們定的11億現在增加到21億"},{"start":415.956,"end":443.197,"text":"七千八百萬但是新增的佔領就原定的餘額就是四十點三五趴結果呢從我們一零八年前就計劃要核定當初是要說今年十二月就完工了但是呢一直拖拖拖到七年十月份再宣布說再封路三年"},{"start":444.277,"end":467.224,"text":"這樣的計畫的形成所以說完全沒有再去做好所以呢又再編列預算所以這樣子的計畫什麼時候才看到說我們真正的執行的評估在哪裡經費又要管控在如何去製作才會達到說我們的"},{"start":469.065,"end":480.6,"text":"交通道路讓大家可以安心嘛但是我們沒有看到所以如果是做得好的話大家就不會去去申訴啦所以這個部分也多吃的流標"},{"start":484.545,"end":501.379,"text":"所以這個報告是不是可以 要拜託你用一份給我們現在讓你看 你說你怎麼樣有什麼就是措施 有什麼方案真的是達成不要一言再言 經費一算再算 又一直在掙扎事情沒做 錢一直在拿"},{"start":505.441,"end":525.256,"text":"好感謝委員因為其實在過去幾年的確因為工程預算就是在流標的問題比較嚴重那大概在11年到113年之間其實我們大概全國各地的公共工程都有類似的情形就是說整個的這個營建成本快補了"},{"start":525.956,"end":543.044,"text":"快速的上漲導致這些道路無法決標那其實在過去幾年都陸陸續續在做改善那現在都已經在執行當中那對於我們的預算來講其實預算上漲代表我們在這個地方呢他還是很受地方政府的這個支持工程要完成"},{"start":545.845,"end":555.73,"text":"預算上漲是沒有問題因為有新的道路有地方要改善但是執行經費95%工程執行再延後三年再來編列預算"},{"start":561.092,"end":565.335,"text":"這樣對不對所以說這個都是我們人民的喜漢錢不是說一直要預算但是工程又流標又來掂量預算所以我們希望的執行的目標就要提升我們的區道路的品質與安全交通安全還有打造就是行人的與汽車的環境還有改善我們的交通"},{"start":590.711,"end":606.45,"text":"都是路口的轉彎的點的功能還有強化道路的排水還有照明我們的景觀的措施所以推動智慧交通的整理這樣的管理"},{"start":606.89,"end":610.072,"text":"這樣才真的是我們的目標但是我們不能在報告裡面執行力的預算我們跟你申請多少預算問得開嘹嘹但是你要報的說你們的執行的措施執行的效果在哪裡的目標在哪裡我們要的是這個對我們的人民才真的幫助不是說你們便利預算有花完達到預算"},{"start":636.687,"end":655.628,"text":"就是執行率95% 98%但是我們的措施我們的道路執行率達不到一半60%這樣子的話我們就是要消耗力算不是真正的執行的目的所以希望我們的商項以上"},{"start":656.309,"end":671.337,"text":"提出更具體的預算還有怎麼樣的方案讓我們真真才了解你們做到哪裡才能說到最後如何再去解凍因為我們要的"},{"start":673.219,"end":688.612,"text":"凍結預算就是要讓你們要有具體的方式具體的目標才能照這樣去執行好嗎 可以嗎好 謝謝委員我們會再做一些說明 謝謝好 麻煩你再把計畫交到我們的辦公室可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝麥律生委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":142,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時19分）主席好，有請國土署署長。"],["主席：好，請吳欣修署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：署長好。今天的專案報告分為3個大面向，分別是生活圈道路系統檢討、永續提升行人安全計畫，以及提升道路品質；其中提到為了強化行人安全，針對改善行人道路的地方補助計畫，根據國土管理署的統計，全國市區人行道普及率在110年年底為36.68%，112年為38.45%，只有微微增加，但是我看到你們的報告都說98%、95%以上，對於這樣的數據，連預算中心在113年都指出其成長幅度非常低落，所以請教署長，全國市區人行道的普及率目前是多少？有明確的數據嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，當時全臺灣都市計畫道路開闢的時候，人行道的施作比例的確很低，所以我們透過相關的計畫，包含生活圈，包含提升道路品質，也包含了後來的危險路口改善以及現在的永續，大概每年都會以成長百分之一點多到百分之二的狀況來進行，也因為全國各縣市都普遍存在這樣的問題，因此我們的確是用這樣的目標持續在努力，也編列相關的預算。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是我沒有看到短期預期達到的目標……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有對於過去這個計畫的明確改善計畫，也沒有看到你們的進度控管及考核，我看到的報告就只有幾頁就結束了。另外，關於你剛才提到的成長率，我們現在的人行道已經落入「地獄」的惡名，也就是我們的人行道好像地獄一樣，其中社會大眾關心的重點是人行道的寬度，我們人行道的寬度依行人交通量有最低限制，自110年到113年近4年，淨寬不足最低標準的人行道比率皆超過兩成，國土署針對這些問題的檢討、成果都沒有說明，只說達成率多少……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：具體都沒有講清楚，所以你們預計什麼時候全國最低標準寬度的人行道可以達到目標？我沒有看到你們報告裡面……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們每年跟大院做相關的預算執行報告時，在相關的計畫裡面都已經有提列，因為各縣市面臨這樣的問題困難度不一，道路寬度也是寬窄不一，所以要劃的不管是實體人行道或標線型人行道，或者是施作相關的庇護島，每一條道路的條件都不同，所以我們每年都在協助地方政府把這些加速執行。我們跟大院報告的是，我們的預算執行率每一年都高達98%以上，顯示我們跟地方政府齊心努力，每年都在改善這些道路人行道的寬度，我們剛剛也提到，大概每年是以1%到2%之間的比例在往上提升，同時也加速訂定各項規則，協助地方政府把這個做出來。"],["麥委員玉珍：你們今天是要提出成果報告還有檢討報告，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我看你們的檢討跟成果都沒有，如果真的做得那麼好，為什麼還會有臺灣行人五大地獄現象？你自己看看12月的死亡率，你們說自己做得那麼好，還一直關心解凍的費用……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是有沒有關心……剛才你說費用是足的、費用是夠讓你們做的，但是我們看到的是這樣子的面向。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，如果認真要去改善，其實現在的預算是不夠的，連解凍都沒有辦法，因為事實上地方政府的期待也都跟我們一樣……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你們要有具體的計畫，把具體計畫送給我們辦公室，可以嗎？不是只用講的，「管，一支長長啦」！事實上我們沒有看到具體的計畫。"],["吳署長欣修：就是因為預算執行率夠高，才可以跟大院講我們的預算不夠，每年的預算執行率都超過98%以上，所以才會希望……"],["麥委員玉珍：對！預算98%以上，執行率不到60%，這樣子我們才要凍結預算……"],["吳署長欣修：預算執行率都是98%以上。"],["麥委員玉珍：希望你們要有計畫，但今天我看到的報告就是寥寥幾張，這樣就報告了事。","另外，在上一期生活圈道路交通建設計畫裡面，我們提到有9個未能如期完工的工程，這是111年至116年的計畫，其中3個案件在112年被指出多次流標，因為沒有人投標，所以沒辦法執行，比如說彰化大埔鄉的道路寬度規劃也是緩慢，工程費用一路上修，原本訂11億，現在增加到21億7,800萬，新增的款項占原核定的44.35%，結果呢？108年計畫就核定，當初預計今年12月可以完工，但是一直拖到去年10月又再宣布封路3年，相關的計畫行程完全沒有做好，然後又再編列預算，請問，什麼時候才能看到計畫真正的執行？你們的評估又在哪裡？又相關經費要如何管控，才會讓我們的道路達到大家都可以安心的程度？如果你們做得好的話，大家就不會去申訴。針對多次流標的部分，也拜託你把相關報告送一份給我們。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：讓我們知道你們有什麼措施、有什麼方案是真正達成的，不要一延再延，經費一算再算又一直增加，事情沒做，錢卻一直要拿。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，過去幾年的確因為工程預算流標的問題比較嚴重，在111年到113年之間，大概全國各地公共工程都有類似的情形，整個營建成本快速上漲，導致這些道路工程無法決標，但是在過去幾年都有陸陸續續改善，現在都已經在執行當中。對於我們的預算來講，預算上漲代表這個部分還是很受地方政府的支持，他們才會希望繼續……"],["麥委員玉珍：工程要完成，預算上漲是沒有問題，因為有新的道路，有地方要改善……"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是執行經費95%，工程執行要延後3年，再來編列預算，這樣對嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我們後續會再要求地方政府檢討……"],["麥委員玉珍：這都是人民的血汗錢，你們不能一直要預算，但工程流標又再編列預算，我們希望執行的目標是要提升區域道路的品質與交通安全，打造行人與機車行的環境，還有改善交通路口轉彎點的功能，以及強化道路的排水和照明、景觀措施，推動智慧交通的管理，這樣才是我們真正的目標，不能在報告裡面只提及執行率、預算，你們申請多少預算就花光光，你們要報告的是執行措施的效果在哪裡？目標在哪裡？我們要的是這個，這對人民才是真正的幫助，不是你們編列預算、花完預算就是執行率95%、98%，但你們的措施、道路執行率達不到一半，至多60%，這樣子的話就只是在消化預算，不是真正達到執行的目的，所以希望你們能夠提出更具體的預算及相關方案，讓我們真正了解你們做到哪裡，然後才知道到最後如何再去解凍，因為我們凍結預算就是希望你們要有具體的方式、具體的目標，然後照這樣去執行，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝委員，我們會再做一些說明。謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，麻煩你再把計畫交到我的辦公室，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","張啓楷","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、交通部就「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143401_00011"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}