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欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":929.565,"end":936.015,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"},{"start":960.828,"end":986.465,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1067.629,"end":1067.792,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1211.602,"end":1213.163,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1260.589,"end":1281.044,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1320.503,"end":1321.695,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1576.028,"end":1576.958,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1649.309,"end":1678.507,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1695.377,"end":1695.458,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1777.065,"end":1786.9,"text":"請報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員10人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思如"},{"start":1787.577,"end":1812.96,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期經濟委員會第六次全體委員會議事錄時間114年3月31日星期一九十一分至十二時二十二分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員邱益穎等14人列席委員賴世保等12人列席人員經濟部常務次長賴建信農業部政務次長黃昭清內政部國土管理署副署長吳旺勝國家科學及技術委員會政務委員"},{"start":1813.621,"end":1827.659,"text":"政務副主任委員林法正等主席謝昭紀委員依附報告事項一 宣讀上次會議思路協定確定二 邀請經濟部部長 農業部部長內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長"},{"start":1829.241,"end":1844.349,"text":"就2025年防洪抗旱計畫進行報告並被質詢經濟部常務次長賴建信及農業部政務次長黃昭金報告後委員邱映穎等16人提出質詢經由經濟部常務次長賴建信等及其答覆決定一登記委員"},{"start":1845.189,"end":1845.63,"text":"繼續進行報告事項請宣讀"},{"start":1867.625,"end":1882.319,"text":"邀请经济部部长及国家发展委员会主任委员就国际经贸情势变化提出协助国内传统产业及中小企业因应对策进行报告并被质询宣传并请经济部郭志辉部长报告"},{"start":1897.182,"end":1921.776,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好今天承蒙貴委員會邀請就國際經貿情勢變化提供協助國內傳統產業以及中小企業因應之對策進行報告受到美國關稅新政的影響我國傳統產業以及中小企業受到相當的通緝經濟部已與相關部會合作提出"},{"start":1922.622,"end":1933.082,"text":"因应美国关税我国出口供应链支持方案协助各影响业者因应调整敬请各位委员不吝视教"},{"start":1934.144,"end":1940.067,"text":"我國中小企業達167萬4千家佔全體企業家數98.9%提供超過900萬個工作機會傳統產製造業者共8.6萬家佔整體製造業比重超過9成就業人數206.6萬人總產值達11.24兆元"},{"start":1960.876,"end":1989.503,"text":"以金屬製品、機械設備、塑膠製品、食品等加速最多扮演經濟發展的重要角色美國川普總統於今年114年4月2日宣布包括我國在內全國多國實施對等關稅的政策4月5日起對約180個全球所有的國家所有的產品"},{"start":1990.623,"end":2013.033,"text":"除原有税率以外一律加征10%的关税自4月9日起上述180个国家中贸易逆差较多的57国除原有税率之外另外加征个别国家对等关税11%到50%不等的税率其中对我国科征税率高达32%"},{"start":2016.161,"end":2044.27,"text":"2013年台湾对美国出口达1114亿美元占总体出口的23%主要出口到美国的前30大商品占我国出口到美国总值的72%主要以自通讯电子零组件为主占对美国出口高达65.4%其余汽车零组件扣件"},{"start":2045.154,"end":2070.783,"text":"机械零件 自行车 运动器材 家具 塑胶制品等传统产业产品占5.8%经济部分析美国实施对等关税后初步评估相关产业受影响的情形如下一 钢铁金属 钢铝及其制品加征25%与其他对等国一致"},{"start":2072.199,"end":2094.919,"text":"可与其他对等国公平竞争扣件业受到的影响所工具水五金税率是32%预期短期获利会下滑二运输工具自行车加征32%整车影响有限零组件部分影响持续评估中汽车零组件"},{"start":2096.246,"end":2109.931,"text":"招增25%的关税为因产品验证书销约一年的作业时间短期能会继续出口中长期可能会影响国内的生产制造"},{"start":2111.078,"end":2134,"text":"三、机械的部分加征32%,中小型工具机以及产业机械将会受到影响。四、重机电及电线电缆加征30%,部分重机电因为需要取得认证,所以短期较难被取代。电线电缆以内销为主,影响程度将持续观察。"},{"start":2135.492,"end":2142.821,"text":"5、石化、塑膠以及橡膠加征32%石化及橡膠製品輸美的金額較少"},{"start":2144.564,"end":2171.137,"text":"評估影響有限塑膠製品部分產品對美國的依賴程度比較高預期影響競爭力六 運動器材以及家具加徵32%運動器材面臨到品牌客戶洽談成本的轉移壓力家具因為受到市場競爭的對手關稅較台灣高受影響的程度我們持續關注"},{"start":2172.518,"end":2189.806,"text":"七生技医药药材适用32%关税成本增加影响厂商的获利药品暂时豁免关税赏贷后续的评估八一般化学加征32%造成因为疏免的"},{"start":2190.566,"end":2219.64,"text":"比率比较低冲击有限染料或颜料主要外销市场是在东南亚加工后输出到美国可能会有间接影响化妆品的部分客户无法完全吸收提高关税之成本预期利润可能会被压缩9加电加增32%部分输美业者竞争对手为美国当地厂商影响产品的竞争力"},{"start":2221.363,"end":2238.831,"text":"我們應應的對策報告如下台灣已經組成談判小組由行政院副院長鄭麗君女士領軍包含成員包含國安會經貿談判辦公室行政院相關部會以及學界"},{"start":2240.923,"end":2262.689,"text":"業界談判關稅可以比照美加墨自貿協定從台美雙方的零關稅開始談起全力爭取改善對等關稅且擴大對美採購以降低貿易逆差行政院已經完成盤點對農工、石油、天然氣等產品的大量採購計畫"},{"start":2264.689,"end":2286.878,"text":"為因應針對美國客戶終止訂單或展延訂單交期國內傳統產業或中小企業業者短期內將有資金周轉的困境經濟部將與金管會合作透過銀行工會呼籲協調各銀行提供受影響業者貸款本金展延暫不緊縮銀根"},{"start":2290.526,"end":2312.796,"text":"防止業者因資金周轉不靈而影響持續的經營此外行政院於今年的4月4日召開記者會提出因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案整合跨部會支援擬定九大面向二十項措施投入總經費880億元全力讓國家經濟穩定產業發展穩定國人生活安心"},{"start":2319.215,"end":2334.418,"text":"其中經濟部共投入411元提供金融支持提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場等三大面向共四項支持措施協助美國加徵關稅受影響業者"},{"start":2335.459,"end":2360.749,"text":"其重点如下1.外销贷款优惠保证加码加码60亿元针对多元布局市场外销订单提供外销贷款优惠信用保证降低业者采购原料生产以及出口周转金的负担2.中小微企业贷款加码加码50亿元提供周转性支出及购买机器设备的贷款"},{"start":2361.872,"end":2388.873,"text":"并搭配利息补贴以及信用保证三补助研发转型加码200亿元鼓励企业技术升级打造更高规格的新产品布局国际多元市场减少对单一市场的依赖四争取海外订单加码100亿补助企业海外新设展示中心花负"},{"start":2391.495,"end":2419.333,"text":"發貨倉庫等實體據點或代理經銷商等協助企業拓展國際市場的佈局此外為因應美國加徵關稅所帶來的重大挑戰經濟部在短期內將採取多項因應措施包括鼓勵國內上市公司上市櫃公司買回庫藏股對比較基優的公司呼籲他們的懂事"},{"start":2421.985,"end":2427.829,"text":"監視經理人能夠買回自己的自己家公司的股票那麼"},{"start":2430.612,"end":2455.164,"text":"引導已經在美國投資的業者以代工方式支援國內品牌廠商並促成民間成立大型的貿易商整合訂單後分配與中小為企業在中長期方面將聯合海外台商在當地保稅園區代工生產台灣品牌的產品推動代工廠與品牌商共同開拓新進"},{"start":2456.545,"end":2473.053,"text":"先进工业国家的市场同时培育数位与AI应用人才协助产业升级转型经济部非常重视传统产业以及中小企业发展所面临的问题"},{"start":2474.601,"end":2500.046,"text":"針對美國加徵關稅的部分行政院已推動因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案整合跨部會資源提出加碼的支持措施協助受影響產業因應相關支持措施辦法將於今年的4月14日之前對外公布並對各個產業需求提供客製化的需求"},{"start":2500.986,"end":2517.347,"text":"協助經濟部已設立免付費諮詢專線並設立網頁專區供業者查詢運用也提供馬上辦中心來解決業者在需求速度上面的問題那麼"},{"start":2521.209,"end":2550.989,"text":"我们这个政府也将持续召开产业座谈会,倾听业界的心声与需求,随时解决问题,让政策更符合需求。此外,经济部将从今年推动中小为企业多元振兴发展计划,投入116亿元经费,以数位转型、净零转型、通路发展等策略,以及30人以下数位能力建构与普惠贷款。"},{"start":2551.79,"end":2576.59,"text":"租稅優惠 為員工加薪納入信保審核機制等配套協助提升中小微企業的生產力並減輕基本工資調整的衝擊以上報告敬請各位委員指正視教敬祝各位委員身體健康 諸事順利謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請國發會我們劉靜清主委報告"},{"start":2589.25,"end":2597.341,"text":"主席、各位委員及與會的先進今天榮幸承蒙貴會邀請就協助傳統產業及中小企業因應國際貿易情勢提出報告"},{"start":2604.944,"end":2611.11,"text":"首先說明我們當前的國際經貿情勢自從2025年4月2號美國宣布對等關稅之後主要的國家將會針對貿易的壁壘所產生的經濟效率的減低是一個"},{"start":2623.28,"end":2632.687,"text":"探討的事實那在世界貿易組織也因為這樣的關係他們認為在2025年全球的貿易量將由成長3.2%轉為衰退1%那國際貨幣基金組織也指出美國加徵關稅將會對全球經濟造成一定的風險那這些風險都是我們現在必須去面對克服的地方那隨著這個不確定性"},{"start":2649.699,"end":2666.892,"text":"整個過程裡面大家都在進入一個協商期主要是國內的貿易主要採用是FOB、CIF為主在服務一部分的DDP及自由品牌那目前來講不論是走FOB模式或者是CIF模式"},{"start":2667.732,"end":2684.972,"text":"FOB就是我們的貨品送到我們的港口CIF是到美國的港口這兩種模式都不負責通關跟繳付關稅是由客戶繳付那現在這些廠商必須跟客戶釐清是不是客戶願意繳這個關稅否則的話貨到了"},{"start":2687.495,"end":2707.363,"text":"或出去之後會有一些將來會有些爭議那但是呢這個部分呢美國有個寬限期就是在4月5號美國時間凌晨送出去的凌晨之前送出去的貨在5月27號能夠抵達在這個部分這個期間是一個寬限期還是可以沿用這個現有的稅率那"},{"start":2710.064,"end":2728.455,"text":"另外呢DDP的部分現在也受到影響DDP是會由台灣的廠商來清關繳付關稅送到客戶的hub艙但是到了這段期間客戶願不願意付也是一個困難所以現在都進入協商期所以多數的事情還在一個不確定的狀態下我們會持續的觀察這個不確定的狀況下的短暫影響在這個過程中我想在這個機會也說明一下全球在2024年"},{"start":2738.38,"end":2765.395,"text":"所有的國家進口的貨品大概是24.7兆美元美國佔了3.3兆也就是佔了13.34%換句話說美國以外也有世界這個世界還佔有了86.66%的進口額度貨品進口額度也就是說我們還有很多大的市場值得我們去探索值得我們去行銷以及公約這個市場"},{"start":2766.772,"end":2785.346,"text":"那所以呢政府也會在這個兩個角度來協助所有的廠商這在短期的部分我想郭部長剛才已經提已經報告過了在這個工業部分經濟部有700億的措施那我這邊就補充在農業的部分我們也有一個六大措施主要是"},{"start":2787.082,"end":2809.301,"text":"有180億的支持是農業部主政的就是第一個對農業貸款的利息加碼的金融支持也同時提升產業競爭力所以農業部會強化在外銷冷鏈系統加速產業的價值化然後盡快取得國內外的標章認證協助轉進其他市場再來是開拓多元市場擴大國內的行銷活動擴大海外的行銷活動"},{"start":2812.203,"end":2832.769,"text":"整個部會合起來總共有九大面向、二十項措施在服務熱線上有190條這個短期的結束之後我們另外會針對中長期協助產業的發展跟轉型我們會掌握六大趨勢的改變然後以三個大的方向來協助產業進行中長期的轉型"},{"start":2836.05,"end":2852.278,"text":"第一個趨勢的改變是在於供應鏈重組將會成為一個重要的方向那這裡面的方向有機會有機會那什麼樣的機會呢舉個例子多數台商在中國跟越南或者是這個"},{"start":2854.67,"end":2876.321,"text":"泰國為主但這個過程裡面呢其實如果我們每個國家有不同的稅負所以加起來的總稅率來看或是總成本的增加來看其實中國是增加了百分之九十幾越南增加了百分之八十幾台灣大概在五十左右那這個泰國大概在五十六左右那比較下來以比較利益來講呢台灣是最低的"},{"start":2876.881,"end":2902.959,"text":"那第二個部分呢建廠需要時間建廠需要時間在短期的因應下呢最快的方式是產能的移動這個產能的移動呢就是利用現有的廠房去做供應鏈的重組那以台灣為最後的組裝地出去是最便宜的喔所以呢相較之下呢也有很多的廠商希望利用這個機會在短期內來解決這個問題中長期再看其他的供應鏈的變動以及現在的政策變化"},{"start":2904.38,"end":2926.674,"text":"我們也希望協助廠商掌握現在的供應鏈重組商機再創我們的商業機會另外在飛鴻供應鏈裡面在這段期間也是逐步在形成在早一點的時間AI供應鏈開始要進入飛鴻化的時候光模組的通訊從中國市場移到台灣來讓台灣的廠商有一個很好的商機另外在"},{"start":2928.275,"end":2953.015,"text":"這個在當時呢COVID-19的時候呢我們推動的跟流台灣也也回來的很多的廠商那再來就是在現在半導體半導體的封裝出現了白名單這個白名單也讓我們台灣增加了很多的商業機會我們認為在未來的廢紅供應鏈的商機會越來越多越來越多隨著兩個集團產生衝突之後那另外一部分呢台商必須去提升我們的競爭力那競爭力的發展"},{"start":2955.517,"end":2975.687,"text":"我們會協助再來是研發創新轉型的這個部分還有新市場的開拓因為就沉入我們剛才報告的全球進口市場還有86.66%在海外在其他的國家那我們希望的協助廠商往這裡走那我們因此推出三個比較大的方向第一個是強化產業優勢"},{"start":2977.228,"end":2991.54,"text":"第二個是激勵投資與創新第三個部分是優化投資環境那這幾個部分呢都會我們會強化在信貸物產業的策略產業裡面去更加的強化以AI為核心的發展然後呢帶動半導體帶動這個"},{"start":2995.171,"end":3022.726,"text":"这个军工产业带动次世代的通信带动我们的爱控带动整体的AI产业那同时呢我们会加速在细光子量子运算跟自主机器人等新的技术里面持续的去发展取得全球领先的地位那第二个部分我们协助这个传统产业在中小微的产业的发展那我们这个部分呢我们会做几件事情第一个是协助强化通路这个研发"},{"start":3023.286,"end":3051.922,"text":"以工具機來講工具機這幾年新的通路主要是在印度跟土耳其那我們希望透過替代市場來取代美國以外的市場那取代美國市場那能夠協助這些廠商能夠盡快的去掌握商機去彌補這個數字那這個部分需要比較強的這個銷售能力尤其是全通路的發展那另外我們透過AI協助這個廠商把自己的效率化跟成本下降"},{"start":3052.862,"end":3070.54,"text":"那再來這幾年會形成成熟期的產業他需要透過規模化跟經濟化降低他的成本那我們除了我們剛才除了我們在研發的協助之外我們也希望能夠協助產業進行控股的產生那我們也會修訂這個企業併購法來這個鼓勵這個"},{"start":3074.537,"end":3100.436,"text":"控股產業的產生讓大家可以集結起來以後變成較具規模優勢去競爭那另外我們也推動產業再造基金協助傳統企業的轉型那同時我們也推動了中小微企業的多元振興方案我們希望透過中小企業振興方案來協助中小微企業的再次的轉型發展那另外我們也會利用這個機會推動產業再次轉型"},{"start":3103.078,"end":3123.193,"text":"那台灣的產業需要再次轉型往高附加價值產業走或者是往高效率的方向走那我們希望透過價值鏈的改變去讓往差異化的價值跟經濟規模降低成本的角度提升效率的方式讓自己的資本競爭更強烈"},{"start":3124.894,"end":3133.402,"text":"另外在資助創新創業的部分我們也會大量的提供老創產生新創也協助青年創業我們希望2027年能達到1500億的資金投入每年資金投入協助這個產業的發展"},{"start":3141.97,"end":3162.165,"text":"至於在激勵投資與創新的部分,我們除了產障條例的修正,我們增加企業投入AI跟綠能的部分能夠有大幅的改善之外,國發基金也推動了七大百億基金,希望透過主題式的投資帶動整個社會青年的發展。"},{"start":3162.705,"end":3170.971,"text":"那這個7個百億分別是機器人的基金預計今年第三季啟動AI新創基金我們已經啟動了那在這個智慧醫療新創基金也開始受理了綠色成長基金會在今年第二季我們希望這幾個大的基金去帶動那之後呢我們也會在六都之外提供我們這個創業100的計畫我們希望給予補助提升100家以上的企業"},{"start":3190.445,"end":3212.564,"text":"在这个六都地区我们提供青年创业100我们希望提升青年创业100我们给予青年更多的补助给年轻人更多的创业机会来利用这个来发展自己的未来那另外我们会透过这个促参造园投资方案扩大国内的需求刺激国内的景气发展然后扩大我们的公共建设的发展"},{"start":3213.902,"end":3229.975,"text":"那在用化投資環境部分呢我們會擴大我們這個投資台灣三大方案第一個範圍的擴大第二個第二個這個補助範圍也跟著擴大喔那我們在國內來講過去土地是最貴的我們現在由經濟部提供產業園區然後呢提供"},{"start":3233.938,"end":3253.318,"text":"像我們有一個園區我們目前會給到三年的這個免租金那之後呢大家以租代買的話呢成本建設成本會更低那我們在生產五要素我們也會去特別的強化那我們對於這個投資回台的利息補助我們也編列了更大的預算兩倍以上的預算擴大來支持"},{"start":3255.12,"end":3272.45,"text":"另外我們會強力的推動六大區域的產業發展透過均衡台灣以科學園區跟產業園區帶動台灣六大區域的發展尤其是南北創矽谷跟中部的智慧新核心還有農業智慧化我們會強力的推動讓台灣的產業跟內需更加的擴大透過這幾個方案我想"},{"start":3278.959,"end":3294.233,"text":"面對中長期而言政府也會很積極的去協助大家去發展那我想也表達美國之外也很美 美國之外有世界那誠如我之前講的有86.6%的進口市場在美國以外那我們面對問題才能解決問題但是真正的問題在問題的背後不是表面的問題但我們會協助企業解決問題背後的問題然後呢"},{"start":3303.221,"end":3318.481,"text":"以問題背後的問題作為核心來進行轉型我們希望透過這樣的轉型能讓台灣進到第二層次的再次的進化讓我們的掌握到二次供應鏈重組也掌握到廢紅供應鏈的商機發展"},{"start":3319.582,"end":3331.781,"text":"也透過研發強化我們整體的產品跟商業模式還有流程的能力然後讓我們再次轉型成功讓我們產業更具韌性以上報告敬請不認指教謝謝"},{"start":3334.599,"end":3352.046,"text":"谢谢现在进行询答委员询答前主席袁立作以下宣告每位委员发言时间本会委员六分钟必要时得延长两分钟非本会委员五分钟上午十点三十分截止发言登记首先请邱毅英委员做询答"},{"start":3363.695,"end":3389.103,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下部長跟國發會主委好了國部長 劉主委委員早部長早 主委早這個我看得出兩位的面相不太好看"},{"start":3390.91,"end":3416.185,"text":"這個對整體的經濟發展應該是憂心忡忡對國際的局勢應該是憂心忡忡台股在前天開盤就跌了2000多點我剛剛一路一直在看著今天的台股股市雖然國安基金進場了但是現在看起來狀況也不是太樂觀現在好像也下跌300多點這個剛剛部長跟主委兩位的報告"},{"start":3417.455,"end":3444.909,"text":"我還是想要直接針對問題請教其實對於川普總統的這樣的一個關稅政策在全球引發了軒然大波那當然他在今天中午4月9號美國的時間中午以後才會美國時間才要開始正式來實施我想請教兩位台灣的經濟大概掌握在經濟部跟國發會的手上你們怎麼看"},{"start":3446.138,"end":3472.049,"text":"到底這一波對於台灣的各式各樣的產業或者是說全球現在大家急著要去跟美國政府談你們的評估能夠談出什麼東西出來對台灣來說台灣有些什麼樣的優勢或者是台灣能夠怎麼樣從這個困境裡頭逃脫兩位誰可以回答"},{"start":3476.028,"end":3499.703,"text":"跟委員報告我的看法台灣不論是全球來講所有的AI Server90%都在台灣廠商的手上晶片也在我們的手上但是我們的客戶其實都是美國公司所以我們跟美國的廠商是一個百分之百很審密的結合在一起的一個供應鏈"},{"start":3500.643,"end":3524.752,"text":"那這個供應鏈呢 其實我們彼此是互惠的所以美國廠商其實也很幫台灣在講話那我們也積極在溝通因為在這個供應鏈的替代過程中不會那麼快速不會那麼快速所以呢 我們是有一定的優勢去談第二個 我們過去台灣跟美國建立很好的關係那這個關係也讓我們有比較好的管道在溝通中"},{"start":3525.612,"end":3540.805,"text":"主委我們當然知道台灣過去跟美國建立很好的關係但是現在在野黨的批評就是說你們一直講跟美國建立很好的關係可是我們被課徵高的關稅我相信待會來的在野黨的委員一定是這樣問你的"},{"start":3542.226,"end":3558.565,"text":"所以你講說台美關係很好但是我們卻被課徵高的關稅政府要怎麼樣的解釋要怎麼樣的自圓其說或者是說您可以告訴大家我們這一次派去要跟人家談判要去跟美國政府談"},{"start":3560.066,"end":3588.565,"text":"真的除了台美關係良好之外我們還有什麼東西可以拿出來跟人家談減少台灣在整體這個關稅上面的損失這兩件事情我第一個先說明一下因為我在外美商待過很久他在處理這種事情上面他會有一個通則先走所以這一次的關稅是用一個公式以逆差為核心的公式算出來的那其實這是一個全球的標準不會是針對誰或誰"},{"start":3590.146,"end":3590.748,"text":"但是這個標準出來以後 基本上他會開始有一些可談判的空間"},{"start":3595.652,"end":3622.36,"text":"所以這是美國一貫的做法那我們接下來就是利用這個時間開始進入談判的空間只是就媒體報導川普自己講有超過60個國家在排隊了那我們應該會在比較優先的位置我個人的判斷那我們的籌碼其實就我了解我們有做很多的準備只是談判的籌碼是不可能公告出來影響到談判的結果那我這個時候我也呼籲國人其實我們國家遇到困難"},{"start":3623.501,"end":3641.242,"text":"不要再扯後退我們應該一起面對問題如果有建設性的意見應該可以提出來而不是一直扯大家在努力的後退這是我想順便也提主委您的這個看法我是完全同意我問一個比較我不曉得您可不可以回答就是我們的談判代表出發了沒"},{"start":3645.246,"end":3663.226,"text":"這個不在我的層次裡面我接下來還是問一下總統大概有五大指示所以如果對照您剛剛的說法您對於總統的這五大指示你覺得台灣能不能做得到"},{"start":3665.657,"end":3692.071,"text":"總統做事的決心這個不會是只有總統做事的決心這個關乎到兩國之間的這種互相信任跟我們整體的經貿談判的力道跟這個經驗度你單單最後一個要解決美方長期關切的這個洗產地的問題台灣能不能做得到洗產地的問題其實我們現在有一連串的措施正在進行查核中我們很有信心"},{"start":3692.91,"end":3713.375,"text":"好那我要請教一下你們就是說我們在對於跟美國之間的這一些採購你們是不是已經盤點完了是的都盤點完了已經盤點完了所以你覺得在能源的談判上面其實台灣是還有很多的利多可以釋出是這樣嗎沒錯我想昨天的媒體美國的媒體也有露出來這件事情對於台灣產業的衝擊呢比如說美國對台灣執行高的關稅"},{"start":3721.337,"end":3750.126,"text":"台灣現在說要對美國實行零關稅那未來台灣會不會追隨美國去跟中國科徵比較高的關稅這是幾大問題嘛那我們有很多的廠商其實他的工廠是設在中國他要賣美國他從中國出口要賣去美國已經面臨到很高的關稅了台灣還要再針對他再科徵高的關稅您覺得台灣的廠商受不受得了"},{"start":3751.366,"end":3773.999,"text":"我想一個比較明確的方向已經出現了就是美國現在有可能會對中國課更高的關稅所以我們現在我們的這個三大方案裡面有一個跟流台灣方案我們希望提醒廠商不如回自己的家鄉因為台商的主要生產基地的稅都包於台灣"},{"start":3774.039,"end":3787.952,"text":"我當然知道啊 跟流台灣方案其實我們喊很多年這幾年其實有很多廠商已經回來我們現在會更大的強化但是現在面臨到馬上面臨到就是這個關稅的問題他貨出不出的去啊他貨有可能都已經做好了但是這個關稅這麼高這個稅額是誰要付"},{"start":3792.358,"end":3806.764,"text":"是對方要付呢還是生產方要付呢還是大家各付一半呢這個我相信這個業者跟這個跟他的客戶之間應該有在談談成怎麼樣不知道那我們現在說叫他跟留台灣或者是叫他把廠移回來台灣移回來台灣也沒那麼簡單第一個他在台灣要重新找到可以設廠的土地也蠻困難的"},{"start":3817.189,"end":3834.658,"text":"第二個他馬上面臨到就是這個高額的關稅科徵的問題所以對於廠商來講他現在是雪上加霜我前兩天去拜訪了高雄的螺絲工會螺絲業者他們其實現在面臨到一個困難就是說他賣也不是不賣也不是那現在美國對中國科徵這麼高的關稅"},{"start":3840.609,"end":3860.554,"text":"那有可能美國就完全不跟中國買那未來中國的貨也不賣去美國了他直接賣到歐洲去那美國需要的貨跟誰買可能跟台灣的業者買可是台灣的業者要面臨到這麼高的關稅對於台灣的業者來說就是我剛才說的要賣也要死沒買也要死"},{"start":3866.001,"end":3872.952,"text":"買到買都要料很多錢那剛剛你們講的就是說不要說你們啦就我們政府提到了880億的這個"},{"start":3876.72,"end":3885.828,"text":"這個金額這個叫做什麼優惠嗎或者是補助880億老實講我覺得是太少那你這個880億要怎麼樣去對有需要的業者補貼能夠補貼他多少比如說你的加速投資利息補貼現在是三年補貼0.7%的這個業者"},{"start":3901.977,"end":3925.765,"text":"有沒有可能把它擴大那這880億如果很快就用完了那未來還有沒有錢可以再增加還有沒有額度可以再增加這點我想很多的業者很想問這個我們會滾動式的調整我們也其實有不停的在收集現在我們也每天在收集從工會收集是你們現在要滾動式調整我就問你一個最關鍵的問題錢在哪裡"},{"start":3928.936,"end":3935.396,"text":"你在立法院你們的這個我們行政院的預算被砍成這樣錢在哪裡就還是需要立法院的支持"},{"start":3936.734,"end":3961.159,"text":"那也希望立法院大院能夠支持我們這個扶植臺灣產業的特別那您覺得立法院可不可以可不可能支持到補貼到2000億左右這個在野黨的主席說880億不夠要增加到2000億我們也希望越多越好啦但是我們還是希望大家能夠如果大家一條心支持的話這也是很重要的"},{"start":3962.574,"end":3989.833,"text":"我想大家一條心非常關心台灣的產業的未來面對到這樣的一個關稅的衝擊其實我想這個部長也很希望趕快到各地區去了解這些業者的心聲包括這個螺絲工會我想您剛剛講的幾個大產業就我們的了解螺絲工會其實就面臨到最大最巨大的第一線的衝擊螺絲跟石化"},{"start":3991.213,"end":4008.805,"text":"這部長那現在大家在立法院這邊你們大概在研擬對策啦有沒有可能直接下鄉去跟業者做面對面的溝通直接了解他們的需求不要說我們畫了很多的大餅我們政策寫得很漂亮"},{"start":4009.943,"end":4034.889,"text":"可是其實沒有對症下藥我想我們這個座談經濟部已經非常多次了所以我們現在啟動馬上辦中心也就是讓業者直接到我們的園區管理局我們有66個園區管理局跟我們中小企業處有馬上辦中心我們每一家客戶的狀況會不一樣所以我們不用那個大的框架來告訴他們而是每一個客戶你有什麼問題"},{"start":4036.209,"end":4053.332,"text":"我們來協商幫他解決那我在台北有一個顧問團我們在台北本部有個顧問團也就是說當地沒有辦法回答我們已經設定的這個框架問題的時候送回來台北我要求一天就給他回應這個是我們目前的做法"},{"start":4055.156,"end":4081.874,"text":"部長我想這個問題其實牽扯到還非常的長遠今天只是剛開始當然股市跌了三天四天了但是整體的考驗整體的狀態今天才剛開始我覺得我們大概全民上下都應該責無旁貸密切觀察然後隨時在政策上面能夠對於我們的業者能夠有什麼樣的照顧對於我們的產業能夠有什麼樣的扶植我們都應該隨時滾動式提出"},{"start":4084.079,"end":4102.452,"text":"具體的方案出來好不好 是的 謝謝好 謝謝在邱志偉委員進行詢答前我們先確定議事錄上次會議議事錄 議事錄是否有錯誤沒有 那我們議事錄確定現在請邱志偉委員做詢答好 謝謝主席 有請進一步郭部長 國會劉主委郭部長 劉主委"},{"start":4119.181,"end":4138.768,"text":"委員長 這個碰到是前所未有的一個挑戰那當然要用非常的手段 880億我就料離從寬 欲離從嚴880億你是用特別預算 是用特別預算嗎 是特別預算你要趕快編列 編列之後趕快送來立法院 趕快通過那我覺得880億還不過這個後續的延續不會說是一個月兩個月 可能會影響到一兩年"},{"start":4145.891,"end":4166.141,"text":"所以我覺得這個如果採用許可的話我覺得應該寬裂寬裂第一個能夠解決更多問題第二個能夠讓所有的業界都能夠安心所以我目標是應該只有兩千億你即便只有兩千億還不能完全解決問題因為受到影響所有的製造業所以我覺得這部分應該這統合是由誰來統合這預算統合是由誰來統合"},{"start":4175.538,"end":4200.627,"text":"預算局有 這個經濟部的部分是我們自己在負責那經濟部你才400多億沒有 這個是第一階段報告委員這是第一階段我是覺得這個趕快把特別預算把它再寬裂再多一點然後最快的速度來送到立法院是 這個我們希望大院能夠支持另外 你說在六幾在幾個這個園區管理局是馬上辦中心啊我覺得應該下放給各地方政府"},{"start":4201.167,"end":4212.499,"text":"每一個,特別是中南部很多傳統產業,他不會去找服務中心,他會找縣市政府日本政府24%的稅率,我們是30年,他24,他馬上成立1000個諮詢的窗口,1000個在全國"},{"start":4224.537,"end":4245.402,"text":"我是覺得每一個這個產業都碰到問題不一樣譬如說這個金屬扣件 比如說鋼鐵 比如說鎖工具昨天也請這個邱球會邱署長立刻跟這個金屬扣件特別是集中在高雄 在岡山特別跟工會做一個比較深度的會談 深度的討論了解聽聽他們的問題 聽聽他們的建議然後拒絕馬上建級旅局去執行"},{"start":4252.36,"end":4279.595,"text":"不只是金屬構建包括你今天提了很多的手工具石化、塑膠、橡膠、中基電、電線、電纜這些都有工會應該一個禮拜之內立刻啟動跟所有工會的相關的諮詢跟討論不能再等了因為你要最短時間之內了解問題你才能提出有效有效率、有效果的解決方案所以你叫那個什麼服務中心我告訴你這個好過太壞"},{"start":4281.343,"end":4310.174,"text":"報告委員您剛所說明的這一部分我們都有在進行我們只是說對那些比較沒有參加工會的這些業者還是有很多人沒有參加工會我們要看到他所以我們請他們就是說我們直接去拜訪他們或者他們很急的可以馬上到我們馬上辦中心我們是全面在處理這些事情這兩天啊我們民意代表變成一個窗口"},{"start":4311.054,"end":4339.811,"text":"變成窗口 然後我再把這些相關的資訊再轉傳給您這個我沒想到我的這個手機號令這麼快一電話講不完 講不完所以代表說你們的窗口還見得不夠普遍另外 談判小組已經成立 對不對是的 談判小組 那經濟部有代表 對不對國安會 談判辦 然後這個學界 業界也有代表學界 業界也有代表 對不對國安會也有代表"},{"start":4341.65,"end":4369.107,"text":"代表是由行政院來處理對啦我這邊你的報告寫的學界業界都有代表嘛對越早去跟美國談判他這個搶到時間的先機嘛你有政府也講 越快來講好過越好嘛我們有沒有在他們的list裡面有有有這個有有在list裡面我們是在這個前面的排我們的ranking是在前面我看媒體報導是日本跟韓南韓他們是優先來"},{"start":4371.112,"end":4400.545,"text":"對不對那台灣呢台灣排序在多少我們都實際在運作啦這個目前在談判的過程很抱歉沒有辦法在這裡跟您報告所以我要確定說我們這個談判小組已經成立了隨時可以上路對不對然後我們相關的副案都已經準備好了然後只要美國那邊有同意要跟我們談我們立刻就啟動是不是這樣子是所以我覺得這部分很怪"},{"start":4401.195,"end":4429.538,"text":"加強對美國的這個這個談判的這個請求跟要求啊即刻啊 最快的時刻跟 爭取跟以前啊 那個蔡總統跟川普還可以通上電話我們也要朝向這個努力看能不能讓賴總統跟川普通上電話不是 笑我啊 這個我給你的建議你要跟 跟這個跟總統跟官會來建議啊那個 主委"},{"start":4433.649,"end":4453.369,"text":"這個委員的建議我們會去傳達所以為什麼4月5號180個國家他普遍加徵10%然後接著針對58個國家要特別稅率又加徵到10%到50%對不對台灣是34那是偏高了32"},{"start":4455.325,"end":4468.573,"text":"中國是34% 也有50%的為什麼會有10%到50%的差別最主要是看它的雙邊貿易的這個逆差順差的這個額度跟規模"},{"start":4470.066,"end":4490.992,"text":"台灣對美國的這個順差台灣對美國的出口以2024來看是出口111.14億美國進口是460億所以我們貿易的順差將近800億所以這貿易的順差就最主要是它作為這個柯真理額外關稅的對等關稅的主要原因"},{"start":4491.932,"end":4515.82,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣讓這個貿易就從美國的這個進口能夠增加對美國的出口市場能夠做一些調整做轉移所以這就牽涉到匯率政策前行政院副院長那個施俊錫副院長他也提出這匯率政策可能是一個選項這個相關財經部會有沒有針對這部分去思考用匯率政策"},{"start":4517.34,"end":4541.415,"text":"目前是所有的政策都有被思考過就我了解了那很多政策的訂定都有很多多角面的思考多構面的思考我想應該會在適當的時機做出適當的政策出來這個經濟議題是很科學的我不希望太多太多模糊或者抽象的回答這個您贊不贊成用匯率方式來處理"},{"start":4545.812,"end":4561.061,"text":"這種事情喔 我講實話喔 這種東西是沒辦法明著去講的因為會進入匯率超重國家的清單 會造成我們更大的損失所以在這個部分我是沒有辦法回答好 那回過頭來再請教一下郭部長這個對美採購 農 工 國防產業 對不對"},{"start":4566.104,"end":4580.879,"text":"農業是農業不管工是歸你管對不對是天然氣也歸你管所以我們相關的對每家鄉採購的金額品項是不是都已經確定了我們盡量在這個收集啦我們可以向美國這個購買的這個品項"},{"start":4583.803,"end":4608.3,"text":"跟內容這個曾經在一個月前我就質詢過也諮詢過農業部 也諮詢過經濟部說你們相關的對美加強採購的品項要趕快列出來金額規模也要趕快雖然時間之內讓美國知道說我們雙邊的貿易不會那麼大的失衡對美國的貿易順差不會那麼多你現在都準備好了嗎有 都準備"},{"start":4609.898,"end":4624.896,"text":"都有準備 我希望說有準備要趕快要上路要趕快去想方式法跟美國有任何窗口可以能夠有更多的接觸跟討論報告委員 我們的這個方向都跟委員所這個"},{"start":4626.738,"end":4648.61,"text":"指導的方向是一樣的至於說進度的部分我們這個前三部隊在美國的部隊也都一直在安排進入要談判的這個時間只是說這一部分很難在這個地方跟你做詳細的報告聽您跟劉主委的這個說明我大概可以了解我們是政府是有準備的只是等適當時機美國那邊願意跟我們談的時候我們馬上就啟動談判是的然後另外對受衝擊的部分我剛剛還是要強調"},{"start":4656.815,"end":4675.476,"text":"這個預算規模還是不夠我覺得要寬列然後要趕快再通過而且你要分階段實施然後把各受衝擊的產業的priority先把它列出來最嚴重的產業你要有更多的補助更多的協助那相對的你要把它做一些分級"},{"start":4676.842,"end":4701.252,"text":"所以賴總統提出這五項做法零關稅談判、擴大利潤採購、拖高利潤投資、排除非關稅障礙我問你請教一下什麼叫排除非關稅障礙排除非關稅障礙就好像我們過去有一些譬如說對美豬美牛我們要特別要highlight這個來源這點我們馬上可以做到嗎"},{"start":4703.491,"end":4730.068,"text":"這點我們馬上可以知道 這個要溝通這個要溝通啦 這是五六制法我們要由農業部再溝通然後農業部的談判代表會跟美國也溝通解釋我們台灣的這個情形讓對方能夠了解雖然他們認為這個是非關稅傷害的部分但是我們認為應該要多溝通另外擴大對美投資也是經濟部主管的義務嗎"},{"start":4731.772,"end":4748.327,"text":"五大做法裡面也是擴大對美投資大部分是那有沒有什麼具體的投資計畫有計畫有沒有具體的具體的部分我們現在在就是這個是談判的一部分我們希望能夠落實這個我們所提的計畫"},{"start":4749.608,"end":4764.159,"text":"有談判單位他們能夠我這麼評估這五項做法賴總統提出非常方向正確但是你要具體落實才會有政策效果啊是譬如說譬如說我們現在在進行這個境外關內的這樣的一個台灣園區的設置在美國這樣子"},{"start":4768.823,"end":4784.329,"text":"但是一個園區設置到好廠商進駐大概也要四五年所以這個不是解決目前的問題所以我們現在解決就是目前應該怎麼做未來怎麼做這個我們都有詳細的計畫部長跟主委你們兩位是最重要的財經內閣"},{"start":4786.215,"end":4799.859,"text":"那對內也很重要,對內怎麼樣把相關所有衝擊產業把它有穩定下來,有信心能夠持續獲利,持續有序成長對外,再包括你們有國貿署,對外你們有談判辦"},{"start":4803.175,"end":4821.125,"text":"這個國安會也是主管所有財經部會的統籌對外也是非常重要對外很急迫就是怎麼樣跟美國政府最短時間之內取得這個協商或是談判的契機這點很重要但是在此之前你們相關準備我再確定一下是不是都準備好了"},{"start":4823.145,"end":4851.047,"text":"跟你說明一下我們的確有準備就是不只是您講的投資包括採購我們的確是準備了只是這個是因為是我們的談判籌碼我們就沒辦法在這裡談但是我很肯定我們有這是一個國家的挑戰也許你可以說是危機危機就是一個轉機是一個挑戰是一個嚴峻的挑戰但是你有準備一定可以客戶挑戰"},{"start":4852.213,"end":4863.942,"text":"而且要建基底基具體快速迅速的落實有效率落實這政策才能到位一起努力謝謝好謝謝我們現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答主席好"},{"start":4879.195,"end":4883.988,"text":"陽泉發言 邀請部長跟國防會主委郭部長 劉主委"},{"start":4892.297,"end":4918.722,"text":"兩位好我們一起加油那首先要請教部長全民關注的這個關稅應對在4月3號美國總統川普他宣布了加徵我們32%的對等關稅時那首先請問政府有沒有事先先前評估到會這麼高有沒有從美方得到相關的資訊有沒有提早"},{"start":4920.959,"end":4940.798,"text":"預備到因應關稅的措施請做說明報告委員我想這一部分我們可以 主委說明委員報告我們當時設了很多版本最高的版本其實我們是到35%最高的版本是35%對對對我們當時有好幾個版本那有比較好的有比較弱的但是"},{"start":4941.298,"end":4950.724,"text":"但是他這次的工資你比較好的你認為你們的很多版本最高35最低是多少我25最低是10最低是10我們都有版本在應變是是是那請教"},{"start":4955.663,"end":4975.305,"text":"您所謂的最高35%到最低的10%因為我們看到在4月1號執政黨的這個黨團總召柯總召他不只鐵口直言說美國只會收10%更說是國安會議的總結 他參加 他也看到"},{"start":4976.326,"end":4991.134,"text":"所以換句話說 如果照剛剛劉主委所說的在川普這個宣布前 我們政府就已經有預估是10%是最底線 是最輕的那最高是35% 是不是如此"},{"start":4991.994,"end":5016.106,"text":"是不是如此我們的評估當然是根據各種不同的情境那我們也曾經評估到高標是35所以換句話說對這很好要事先評估是很好所以本校要請教因為宣布的時候落差那麼大跟柯總召落差那麼大所以本校要請教所以當時柯總召說的"},{"start":5017.472,"end":5045.231,"text":"也是你們的研判之內報告委員柯總召不代表行政院好 這句話我們聽到了柯總召不代表行政院那同時我要請教那880億的方案是當時就有的方案還是事後得到32%的加徵才開始討論又是以什麼為基準呢請做說明"},{"start":5045.971,"end":5065.576,"text":"我們當然是事後事到32%以後我們趕快再調整加碼放大加碼出來第一個階段我們認為880億是不是可以來滿足這個紓困的方案因為我們大概整個加起來"},{"start":5066.836,"end":5080.071,"text":"我們大概看一下就是說受到影響的可能就是傳統產業跟中小微企業那在那個電子伺服器的部分高科技的產品可能影響不大這個是我們都確認過了"},{"start":5081.553,"end":5104.001,"text":"所以我們880億就是針對中小微企業跟這個傳產以這個為主但這是第一階段如果這個談判出來的結果以後如果我們能夠快速談判達到一個好的結果大概我們預估880億應該可以滿足這樣的一個需求如果我們談判的結果不如我們的預期那麼當然這個金額會加大"},{"start":5105.421,"end":5124.134,"text":"好 這個就是大家一定要一起團結而且我們要事先也有預作我們的應對措施所以本期要請教我們是出國導向的國家美國關稅來提高的做法對於我們這樣子的一個經濟體它絕對是很大"},{"start":5126.596,"end":5147.383,"text":"的一個衝擊那外媒的彭博也預估該稅率將會導致台灣對美出口銳減會63%那導致我們國內的GDP會降到3.8%會降這麼多在這樣的情況之下大型的公司或許他有迴轉的空間"},{"start":5148.863,"end":5168.349,"text":"就如剛剛部長所說的我們對於中小企業他是直接面臨到生存的一個壓力在這樣的情況之下我們看到台灣的中小企業激佔我們的九成產值我們的就業人口也即將要有在中小企業裡頭要有千萬人"},{"start":5169.289,"end":5189.935,"text":"在這樣子的一個重大的經濟的動脈下去如果處理不佳它當然經濟的停滯當然是跟整個社會會連動那換句話說是全民要承受所以在這樣的情況之下我必須要強調目前為止我們的談判大家似乎認為"},{"start":5191.095,"end":5204.003,"text":"我們的準備不夠周延而且慢半拍在這樣的一個情況之下我們要看到紓困緊急紓困是第一個階段最迫切需要的對不對 部長你們兩位都點頭我們繼續討論緊急紓困"},{"start":5210.907,"end":5225.495,"text":"880億的內容當中幾乎都是我們中長期的政策而且包括政府的轉型AI導入他沒有辦法即刻救援啊所以在這樣的一個情況之下 本席要請教"},{"start":5226.716,"end":5244.678,"text":"像我們中小企業他們既然面臨了生存的壓力這是非常嚴肅的一個議題他們除了需要要解決關稅就請政府我們全力的支持勇敢的有專業有能力的去談判"},{"start":5245.984,"end":5261.777,"text":"那同時就像中小企業所馬上面臨到的請教部長跟主委我們針對於基台的更新這些的利息補貼你們做足了準備嗎 準備怎麼做甚至土地的租賃要不要協助他們來做補貼"},{"start":5263.678,"end":5288.874,"text":"中小企業信保基金你必須要有填單他已經連他的單都被轉單抽單他沒有業績中小企業信保基金能不能延續下來協助跟銀行一起寬鬆的帶給我們的中小企業急迫必須需要銀行會不會雨天收傘會不會抽銀根"},{"start":5290.622,"end":5313.341,"text":"請教報告委員回答你的問題第一個銀行一定不會抽銀根這是我們一直進行監督銀行一定不可以抽銀根部長對不對我們現在的中小企業署創新署我們現在開辦馬上辦中心來協助這些中小微企業他們碰到的問題不會每家都一樣所以我們一對一的輔導一對一的幫助他們解決問題"},{"start":5316.383,"end":5336.984,"text":"好 銀行一定不可抽銀根這是部長告訴我們的 我心裡踏實一點我也給我們所有的中小企業說不會雨天收傘大家共體時艱也務必一定要落實到在現階段我們絕對不能抽銀根部長"},{"start":5337.685,"end":5365.146,"text":"這個是行政院的決策決策一定要落實不會去戳銀根好這一句話讓我們繼續來討論本下請教台中市整個機械產業的一個重症那麼我們是不是已經掌控因為目前大家很緊張在中張頭是整個機械的胖修啦我們都在這裡好緊張自行車業燈手工具機工具機這個零件"},{"start":5366.207,"end":5393.744,"text":"還有我們的扣件我們都好緊張各個工會也都發出了聲音所以在這樣的情況之下我們政府針對於產業鏈的人力流失跟失業風險的擴散所以要請教國防會在這裡你是不是會考慮設立了產業轉型與人力穩定基金作為我們整個緩衝轉單期的時候它的人事成本它的再訓資源的一個來源"},{"start":5395.985,"end":5418.188,"text":"請教有沒有跨部會去討論我們目前是有跨部會討論我們跟經濟部這些單位有在討論過相關的問題那我們是一個再次轉型的專案那委員這邊提的產業轉型與能力穩定基金我想這也許也可以作為一個思考的方向之一謝謝你納入本席的建議"},{"start":5419.349,"end":5434.446,"text":"思考之一但是我請你務必要這麼做因為依照勞基法老闆是不能不給薪的那我們雙邊都要讓他們穩定下來除了不要抽銀根但是人力我們還要保留住"},{"start":5435.006,"end":5459.002,"text":"在這個階段我們如果在做再訓的工作我覺得是非常適當所以用這兩點意見也提供給主委我非常的希望可以聽到你納入這兩項來協助我們的產業好的好謝謝你接下來本席要請問部長台灣投資美國隊我們主要的產業是什麼"},{"start":5460.339,"end":5477.236,"text":"半導體 ICT或者是什麼產業那這一些你在投資的時候當然你也不能隨便給你還必須要有所評估那到底有多少項目有多少人可以配合做得來"},{"start":5478.79,"end":5492.558,"text":"盤點了嗎還有我們的輔導措施到底是什麼所謂的台灣投資美國對請做說明報告委員所有企業要往外走他只有兩個選項第一個看重當地的市場第二個看重當地的資源"},{"start":5493.854,"end":5510.58,"text":"我們是民主的國家我們對企業只有輔導那麼他有意願到美國發展我們會幫助他早日能夠出海落地早日能夠賺錢項目我們有盤點了嗎我們基本上這個我們可以思考我們到美國去做的是優勢產品還是做的是競爭的產品"},{"start":5512.961,"end":5538.072,"text":"是 所以我們項目有盤點了嗎因為既然喊出了這個口號絕對有所措施請問有哪些產業我們的盤點是這樣子就是說這個是在談判的過程美國希望我們哪一些東西去投資我們要保護國內的產業所以我們要衡量國內的產業有沒有到海外去發展的這個能力所以我們這個才綜合在"},{"start":5539.966,"end":5568.629,"text":"考量的部分中和在考量的部分還沒有確定哪一些項目是嗎但是我們基本上就是會整合如果去外國投資我們要縮短它的交易成本縮短它的配送成本所以我們大概是比較建議是整個供應鏈一起走整個供應鏈一起走打一個台灣國家隊這樣的一個概念就是換句話說半導體跟ICT產業是已經在這項目之內"},{"start":5570.063,"end":5584.903,"text":"可以這麼解讀嗎這要看對方的希望好 我們也希望政府你必須要有輔導的措施所以因此排除非關稅的貿易障礙那請教美國最在意的是什麼呢"},{"start":5587.062,"end":5599.818,"text":"我們有很多嘛譬如說我們的一些稅上面的部分或者是一些在行銷上面的措施讓美國覺得說你這個不是公平的競爭這一些叫做貿易障礙"},{"start":5604.062,"end":5625.275,"text":"我們當然會從各方面去解釋可能是國內的文化的關係可能國內的習慣的關係所以我們主要還是要保護國內的這些產業所以我們會透過他們在這個協商或者是在談判的過程裡面讓對方完全了解保護國內的產業這是基本的概念"},{"start":5626.115,"end":5645.003,"text":"本系列提出必須要能夠保護我們民生食安以及我們的農牧產業是的這兩點請務必一定要嚴肅與正一起加油 謝謝我們現在請鄭振淺委員做詢答"},{"start":5662.073,"end":5665.148,"text":"謝主席我想請一下郭智慧部長還有劉靜清主委"},{"start":5676.479,"end":5705.359,"text":"首先先請一下郭部長就是剛剛你有特別回憶一個狀態就是說因為在面對這個美國科30%關稅之後的時候我們有一個880億的一個因應計畫對不對你有特別提到說這880億是特別預算對不對是特別預算可是因為之前柯總早講說這880億是就有預算所以它到底是特別預算還是就有預算"},{"start":5708.62,"end":5714.434,"text":"我們所了解的是特別預算是特別預算嘛所以基本上柯子文昭之前講的是不對的"},{"start":5717.65,"end":5739.763,"text":"我們所了解的是 我想這個時間差啦這個預算跟特別預算是完全不一樣之後要動用也完全不一樣的程序你剛才講的那個部分是不是時間上面的差異啦但是就這個預算來講就是特別預算沒問題喔 特別預算我們都知道說後續我們立法院這邊要怎麼去配合這件事情"},{"start":5740.583,"end":5765.208,"text":"那我想另外再特別問一段話因為之前有商種有些企業界朋友他們回應說因為有些貨品現在在海運當中的時候那他們現在碰到4月9號之後課徵32%的關稅的時候可是有新的訊息出來就說如果4月9號之前已經裝船在5月27號之前抵達美國的部分的時候就不會課徵這32%具體的狀態是不是這樣經濟部這邊有沒有掌握"},{"start":5768.169,"end":5793.769,"text":"报告委员是没有错啦就是说你4月9号on board的产品才会课征这个32%的税啦4月9号以前出货从台湾出口的应该是这个具体是这样的4月5号以前那适用的税率就是原税率4月5号到4月9号是加征10%4月9号以后出货的"},{"start":5794.369,"end":5811.601,"text":"加32%所以是以出貨的時間為標準對不對所以4月9號之前裝船的話基本上就不苛徵這32%裝船的時間適用的稅率是嗎OK所以只要在4月9號包含4月9號裝船5月27號之前到達美國就不苛徵對不對在報關才能適用我看那個劉主委"},{"start":5819.895,"end":5829.255,"text":"點頭點得很用力就確定是這樣的狀態嗎?確定OK 好那我想說接下來我想來針對這個這個部分因為我看到那個"},{"start":5832.876,"end":5853.751,"text":"2017年我們整個出口的統計跟2024年出口的統計因為當中有一個很大的部分就是我們政府不斷推新南向這個政策可是我們看到2017年的時候對中國大陸跟港澳的一個貿易統計占台灣出口的31.68%出口到美國只占11.37%到去年的狀態的時候"},{"start":5856.052,"end":5883.245,"text":"大陸跟港澳的狀態出口是20.27可是對美國這邊大幅的提高到18.15%所以我們看到一個狀態就是在這段期間當中的時候呢在新南向在東南亞國家這邊其實比重沒有差距很大那對大陸這邊金額沒有差距很大可是比重大幅的下降表示我們對美國這邊的成長非常的多這個數字應該沒有錯吧我看都是按照整個政府這邊的一個統計數字"},{"start":5884.986,"end":5899.675,"text":"那我想特別問到一個狀態因為在整個國發會這邊有特別提到說我們在整個非紅供應鏈這邊的時候逐漸形成新的商機那政府也想要大力推動國內傳產中小企業進購相關能力拓展還會通路"},{"start":5901.136,"end":5924.585,"text":"打造一個民主供應鏈我想特別講一個狀態就是說我們看到這個數字當中的時候呢就發現非紅供應鏈我們現在政府努力在做的狀態可是在這一次的關稅的一個大地震當中的時候幾乎並沒有倖免針對這個部分的時候我想請教一下國發會主委的時候你怎麼樣去看待我們接下來對於整個非紅供應鏈的一個建制"},{"start":5927.76,"end":5947.823,"text":"陳如我剛才講的 其實美國佔全球進口大概是3.34%大概全球的進口貿易還有86.66%在其他的國際所以對我們而言 以台灣的經濟產業能量而言其實我們還有很多其他的市場可以去發展"},{"start":5948.704,"end":5969.753,"text":"所以有這樣的機會 我們希望利用這樣的機會 協助廠商去發展 讓他的整個風險管理跟市場更佳的建立 理解喔 所以就是說 飛鴻國運鏈這個部分我們還是持續努力推動嘛 原則上是這樣對不對對OK好 沒問題喔那我想說 在接下來我想特別提到說 因為您剛剛也特別提到說 我們有一個那個"},{"start":5970.793,"end":5998.079,"text":"對美的一個溝通的談判小組也成立了那我想說針對比方說以目前來說台積電已經承諾到美國去投資1000億沒有問題那麼國防預算也承諾明年要提高到3%GDP是3%那麼經濟部這邊也表示我們要協助整個供應鏈赴美去投資然後總統也特別提到說零關稅那我們現在還有什麼樣的籌碼你覺得現在跟美國在談關稅的時候可以用得上的"},{"start":6001.833,"end":6015.851,"text":"這個兩邊在談判的過程中我想籌碼是不可能攤出來給對方知道那就我的了解他是在我們行政院副院長的領導之下然後也他準備了非常完整的所以你說那個談判籌碼現在沒辦法講嗎"},{"start":6018.775,"end":6040.64,"text":"我可以理解 不過因為經濟部這邊有特別提到行政院已經完成了盤點對農工石油天然氣等產品大量採購計畫已經盤點完成那麼因為這一次的關稅很大一部分是因為貿易逆差的問題我想請教我們這樣一個大規模盤點之後的時候大概預計可以處理掉多少對美的貿易逆差順差的問題"},{"start":6042.379,"end":6056.645,"text":"這個還是要由談判的人來進行談判因為經濟部的報告裡面有直接提到所以我想知道說我們這個已經完成盤點的這部分的時候大概可以減少多少的一個貿易順差我們只能講說"},{"start":6057.985,"end":6079.13,"text":"這裡面經濟部是盤點了足夠的數字 其實我們各個不同 不只經濟部各個不同角度都有盤點那這個都是未來的籌碼 這個看談判的代表所產生的談判結果所以這個數字已經盤點完成 也沒有辦法揭露 你的意思是這樣子嗎經濟部長 因為這是你的報告當中 你的意思也是這樣子嗎"},{"start":6081.055,"end":6096.992,"text":"我們現在經濟部所揭露的是我們經濟部所包括的範圍之內但是這個是經濟部的這個金額我想之後行政院他們談判他們還有其他的資源"},{"start":6098.053,"end":6103.495,"text":"因為你這邊講行政院這邊已經談判好之後的時候我想之後到本辦公室我們來做這個細部的溝通我們內部這是可以調整的理解剛才像主委在講的就是說這個其實談判是在談判人員他們手上去溝通這個"},{"start":6114.858,"end":6131.521,"text":"那我想因為剛剛有地震可是我發現就是郭部長跟劉主委其實還是非常穩健我們也希望這一次關稅的一個大地震的時候我們台灣能夠順利的一起度過不過我這邊想要再問一個問題就是因為川普他又特別提到一個情況"},{"start":6132.302,"end":6146.564,"text":"就說台積電如果沒有履行到美國去投資的一個承諾的時候他要對台積電科徵百分之百的關稅針對這個事情我想請教一下郭部長這邊有沒有掌握我們怎麼去因應這件事情"},{"start":6147.569,"end":6166.956,"text":"報告委員我想您的那個訊息從哪裡來我們是不清楚啦到目前為止我是沒有收到這樣的一個訊息OK媒體已經有報導這樣出來今天早上媒體出來的訊息已經是投資的公司嘛所以在講說不會投資這個也是很奇怪的一個論述"},{"start":6169.417,"end":6197.563,"text":"所以你剛剛講說你還不知道這個訊息因為這是今天早上一早的媒體的訊息所以我想說報告委員我想媒體的論述也有它的來源但是這個部分必須要由台積電他們自己來回答我的問題是川普因為他公開講如果沒有兌現的時候他就會課徵百分之百的關稅對啦我想這個就是看什麼時候嘛"},{"start":6199.065,"end":6224.868,"text":"什麼時候那另外我想特別針對目前其實台灣的對美出口當中的時候以伺服器跟整個零組件佔的比重非常的高那當然他們目前其實是一個零關稅的一個情況那之後碰到32%的關稅的時候我想特別去又把那個所有以伺服器為例我找了一下"},{"start":6225.549,"end":6240.306,"text":"目前全球的十大伺服器的供應商台灣占四家啦那我一找他們的財報出來喔他們的一個淨利率淨利潤大概都低於5%基本上沒有辦法"},{"start":6241.207,"end":6261.517,"text":"去支撐這麼高的一個關稅所以我們對於這樣子的部分的時候我想請教一下部長這邊有沒有什麼回應報告委員那我想你的資料的取得這個當然是一種參考不過這幾家公司大概都是做這個代工的是所以那個稅是這個自己原廠要付"},{"start":6262.177,"end":6274.274,"text":"就是說今天可能是NVDA或者是這些公司包括COCOM這些公司他們或者是美插委這些公司他們要自己付是 所以你說關稅他們這邊都不用沒有問題"},{"start":6275.928,"end":6294.76,"text":"這些我們都跟他們談過了伺服器所有的廠商我們都跟他們談過了他們認為32%對他們來講不是問題而且我們現在重點是我們自己的brand我們台灣的台廠那我也問過了你有多少的利潤大概對他們來講這個優勢商品利潤是高於32%是高於32%優勢產品嘛"},{"start":6301.104,"end":6317.982,"text":"因為我是看整個公司的財報啦那如果針對特定的優勢產品我當然相信他們毛利淨利率其實也是高於這個部分至於整個公司財報來說其實是不夠然後你剛才有特別提到說針對這個部分的時候基本上買方的時候他會去把這個關稅的部分cover掉"},{"start":6318.871,"end":6334.015,"text":"而且坦白講這些這一個部分也是我們廠商他們自己我們都盤過他們的也跟他們討論過了他們認為對他們來講包括他們是生產的基地不一定只有在台灣理解"},{"start":6334.675,"end":6361.014,"text":"生產基地可能在墨西哥跟美國有一個美墨之間的稅條款所以你覺得因為台灣的出口當中很大一部分在針對伺服器跟ICT產品你覺得這個部分所以這關稅的部分對台灣的出口你覺得影響不會太大是這個意思嗎對 就是對伺服器或者台灣的優勢商品譬如說台灣什麼叫優勢商品"},{"start":6362.795,"end":6385.47,"text":"舉個例像我們的汽車零組件Aftermarket大概就是獨佔所以這個Aftermarket你要買台灣的商品那對不起這個32%加上去你還是要準備OK理解那我想說因為我看經濟部的資料當中有提到說我們前30大產品的時候大概佔對於出口美國大概72%我想知道說我們這30"},{"start":6387.832,"end":6404.799,"text":"前30大的產品當中我們是不是有去針對它會受到這個關稅的一些影響像部長剛剛針對伺服器有一個很具體的說明就是不會受到影響我們前30大的產品是不是都有做這樣的一個分析跟評估不是不會受到影響而是這些影響"},{"start":6406.492,"end":6432.963,"text":"廠商可以解決理解這是這個不同的理解 完全理解一定會受影響這麼高的這個關稅對我們台灣來講一定是影響只是我們對這個影響如何去解決如何把他這個影響轉到另外一個層級去然後大家來吸收或者是說他們可以承擔這些都是談判小組根據這個國內的能夠承受的程度"},{"start":6433.583,"end":6460.338,"text":"对于跟美国谈判的一个非常重要的关键所以经济部的立场就是不断地来访问国内的这些厂商可能会受影响的厂商他们影响的程度是多少提供给谈判小组做参考所以我想知道说我们经济部针对前30大产品这边是不是也都有做类似伺服器这样的一个评估如果有做再给本席一个很清楚的一个资料好不好我们现在因为在谈判中对不起这个部分可能"},{"start":6461.411,"end":6488.209,"text":"可能要晚一點尊重那我最後這邊的時候想請國發會這邊因為也有提到一個七大百億基金的部分在國發基金裡面因為國發基金裡面本來就有針對這七大一個產業有一些相關的一些投資的一個計畫我想知道這七大百億基金當中的後續的一個操作會是怎麼樣子之後給本席一個書面的資料好不好好的"},{"start":6488.709,"end":6496.896,"text":"OK好谢谢好谢谢在张其凯委员询答结束我们休息两分钟好现在请张其凯委员做询答"},{"start":6520.93,"end":6525.614,"text":"謝謝主席 請保定教主委國務部長 劉主委委員長保定 我們現在是共護國難啦共護國難角色非常重要 經濟補教國發會都很重要很重要的 包括我發現一個神奇怪的現象你4月4號"},{"start":6547.318,"end":6576.596,"text":"那一天你的角色應該是重中之重啊你為什麼做到第二排一個記者會前程一百分鐘你幾乎都沒有講欸有評論你有看到嗎?他們說你那個表現啊比那個手藝老師啊還不如你明明應該有準備的嘛對不對?那一天你是被下封口令還是你不想講?報告委員你看到的那個畫面跟事實不一定是正確的你去看棒球"},{"start":6578.271,"end":6602.414,"text":"投手好幾個在後面然後這個先發投手投得很好 九局都他在投啊對不對 我本來是中繼角色啊那你說我沒有上去就代表說我沒有用嗎大概是這個樣子 我跟你報告啦齁那一天我們是 我準備要回答記者的提問"},{"start":6603.939,"end":6626.929,"text":"但是記者的提問 提完了 我們院長副院長都答了都答完了啊 就沒有輪到我這是事實 跟你報告就這樣所以評論才會講說你比那個衰老師表現都不足啊我現在 人民現在比較關心的你角色要很積極 你那天沒有上台是怎麼樣你是被下風口令還是你自己主動就不上去"},{"start":6627.554,"end":6640.365,"text":"沒有 這個就是分工合作嘛分工那他們為什麼人家都是部會首長可能兩個投手上去投嘛那你是投手啊 為什麼是次長上去啊沒有 那個是報告 他上去是在報告嘛"},{"start":6644.844,"end":6656.612,"text":"不是在回答問題我重點不是在回答問題你聽到嗎後來又沒回答喔不然就沒問到我怎麼回答啊為什麼不去報告是人家怕你講真話是要講錯話嗎"},{"start":6658.174,"end":6682.321,"text":"你報告是完全照上面唸的啊對啊 大家補充都是自己去唸 他們中間的補充都是自己去唸他們的比較少啦 內容比較少啦我內容比較多啦我相信你應該 我在說的意思你應該很清楚對不對這怕要去 你要關心打棒球嘛我這用你認識的這個棒球的這個環境來跟你做解說嘛 你應該聽得懂嘛"},{"start":6683.021,"end":6705.367,"text":"對不對所以你本來要準備上場後來沒上場嘛我告訴你沒上場的原因第一個 我跟你講清楚跟民眾講嘛因為民眾希望你有積極的角色嘛重中之重那一天你是被嚇瘋狂我的角色是回答記者他要問的問題那一天記者都沒有問我能夠回答的問題啊對啊 沒問就什麼經濟問題啊就像問那個頭巾"},{"start":6716.35,"end":6739.388,"text":"所以不是被下風口令嗎也不是說怕你上去講錯話或者講了真話又戳破了一些謊言嗎報告委員這一種基本假設的機率等於零我們行政院是一個團隊每個人誰應該扮演什麼角色是非常的清楚我那一天的角色就是回答記者的問題"},{"start":6740.729,"end":6746.537,"text":"因為那個報告,我的次長上去報告就那個報告,他可以報告我也可以報告"},{"start":6747.745,"end":6769.534,"text":"但是我報告在回答問題 因為比較長所以我們稍微分工一下以後每個部委首長都叫次長上去報告這樣很好啊報告跟結果有沒有差別 沒有差別問題是回答問題嘛我是在回答問題的啊 結果沒有人問問題啊下次記者要記得請教那個部長問題要記得問啦 好不好"},{"start":6773.536,"end":6800.821,"text":"好 那我們現在就是要很積極的好 現在我就問問題啦 你要好好答喔不要就抖起來 又跑到第二排去啦不會啊 因為現在我第一排沒有人我們現在問第一排的問題 你不要閃抖喔現在 賴總統因為清澈共啊要大舉的採購美國的天然氣嘛 對不對他剛才講說盤點過啦我們天然氣大概要買多少目前我們所有天然氣 你知道嗎我們跟美國買的比例是多大 你知道嗎所有買的天然氣跟全世界各國多少錢啊"},{"start":6804.187,"end":6815.37,"text":"才10%耶那你現在要提高到多少不是三成喔10%目前只有10%你現在盤點過了你現在要大概要買多少跟美國這次要大總統說要你大局去買要買多少"},{"start":6817.884,"end":6840.399,"text":"我們現在就是目前這個確實是如你所說的我們目前跟美國買因為這個市場價格的問題啦成本的問題啦啊中來啊就是20%至30%啦所以要一倍到增加也不是說一倍啦就是說我們根據這個需求嘛我們因為這個有辦法為美國可以買現在對我們有一個優勢就是說我們為什麼過去沒有買美國那麼遠就是美國離我們太遠了啦"},{"start":6848.124,"end":6854.733,"text":"但是現在這個新的條件是這樣阿拉斯卡我們阿拉斯卡直接從上來到台灣十天而已"},{"start":6856.462,"end":6878.092,"text":"而且不會經過中國的東海的地區所以對我們來講這個是非常好的選項部長你今天很好 你到第一線來講這個非常具體我們本來只有買天然氣所有買天然氣的全世界各國只有10%現在大幅增加到20%到30%這個很重要另外更具體的你剛才說過"},{"start":6882.099,"end":6896.458,"text":"我們已經跟這個阿拉斯加的這個天然氣公司已經簽了這個投資意向書嘛對不對對那天我特別問你那個金額光是說他說是用管線就要400億的美金嘛你說不只那個錢還包括什麼採購對不對那個要一起開採對不對"},{"start":6898.392,"end":6917.777,"text":"發財可能要擴大嘛擴大一點這個部分我們是參與這個計畫啦這個計畫啊詳細的我不是那個那個單位啦你剛剛有參加嘛現在就是通常他的價位就是在那買衣服要買很多天然氣之外他這個開發計畫一共要花400億不管管線都開採嘛400億美金金額很大喔所以我們會負擔多少"},{"start":6919.445,"end":6923.806,"text":"那個不是說這麼大的金額就如你所說這麼大的金額我們當然要審慎具體的評估啦然後我們投資是根據我們將來採購的量"},{"start":6941.38,"end":6964.904,"text":"也有關係啦 因為你是溝通 你是溝通你的應用程度有多高 對你買的價格就有差別啦我想這個委員應該是很清楚嘛 你是財經專家嘛你一定很了解啊 我的投資跟我的報酬率這個是我們的關鍵啦 所以這一部分我想委員應該是非常的清楚 我們為了這幾天啊 就可以確定說"},{"start":6968.745,"end":6981.989,"text":"這個幾十年的慷慨不可能的事情媒體本來在報導說440億美金我們可能會佔一半這個是還沒有做過勾算的如果是這樣我可以跟你馬上回應這個問題啦絕對不會佔一半不會那麼多啦可是就是包括這個管線跟這個開採我們都會參加就對了啦"},{"start":6984.67,"end":7013.756,"text":"我們是溝通嘛我們會講說我如果參與是股東然後股東可以買到什麼好的價格我的ROI到底是多少這個是非常重要的觀念對我們來講對經濟部來講怎麼樣提出一個服國利民的政策做投資這個是我們基本關鍵這跟委員報告這樣所以到時候財務報告要給大家好不好要勾算了不要丟了太多錢"},{"start":7015.675,"end":7022.078,"text":"賠太多錢這個也不行啦我們現在是鼓勵要去投資啦另外一個 我覺得現在很重要的剛剛講天然氣你們想過這段時間我們要降低我們對美國這個逆差有一個很重要的 你知道天然氣有嗎就是核電喔"},{"start":7035.814,"end":7054.149,"text":"連他們AIT的處長都直接跟我們講了他願意幫我們提供他們的技術跟服務對不對而且這個金額很大這方面又是安全的美國跟日本美國現在都大舉在用這個核電了嘛對不對那利用這個機會啊我們現在有發展核電第一就是叫他們的處長說的嘛"},{"start":7055.49,"end":7083.598,"text":"鼓勵人說的啊鼓勵人說的疊疊重點就是說核電是比較穩定的第二個它是便宜的對不對那這樣你就不用漲電價可以降電價啊又可以第三個現在剛好要降低這個逆差你應該好好不要思考這個問題對所有的新的科技能源我們都會多方的評估那麼我想我們對這個您剛剛所說的這些可能的部分我們還是基本上的原則全國國人有共識然後核廢料可以處理"},{"start":7085.119,"end":7090.633,"text":"那這個是安全的我想這三個條件之下我們不排除任何新的科技穩定這個"},{"start":7093.548,"end":7121.919,"text":"電價又低 不只不用上還可以降可以降 第三個美國已經主動我們沒有排斥 報告委員我們沒有排斥 第三個最重要我們沒有排斥 現在可以大幅的降低我們這個逆差我們的關稅就不用這麼高了這個比買很多天然氣都有用喔不然現在內委會考慮嘛對不對我們不反對任何新的科技的能源科技我們不會反對的我們會評估 您剛所指示的我們會評估我再問一個更具體的"},{"start":7122.959,"end":7149.911,"text":"這幾天你一定有很多人在問你啊連電啊跟閣樓房的這個兩家要聯親的這個事情兩家要聯親我問的是非常直接的喔你要在第一線不要跑要跑到第二排去啦有吹哨者啊直接來直接來這邊提供很重要的這個訊息他說經濟部啊有一個官員啦前官員才退休啊叫做廖衛軍"},{"start":7152.978,"end":7172.974,"text":"他在促成這個事情 不認識這個人吧?不認識你不認識廖維俊?我去年520才加入這個經濟部的 所以這一位我不認識所以今年啊 崔少澤講說今年閣樓方德的高層有到台灣來三月份有來 你跟這個高層有見過面嗎?沒有"},{"start":7175.758,"end":7197.213,"text":"確定沒有?三位?當然沒有啊你想一下啊我在這個地方可以在這個在這個國會我不會讓外面人說啊我就是沒有啊所以你跟那個跟這個閣樓方德任何的人沒有接觸?沒有沒有OK好那五月份馬上就到了嘛對不對是五月份馬上就到了是你會去參加這一場這個聯電啊跟閣樓方德他們這個聯婚嗎?報告委員傳說的東西啊"},{"start":7204.181,"end":7223.408,"text":"你認為他的氣力有多大?你又抖到,用傳說又抖到第二線去本,你又到第一排啦沒有,我跟你講就說這個醜習慕總要見公婆,我現在已經死過了,五月馬上就翻牌了這個不需要否認,如果真的有的話,你就要坦白的承認啊這個是,這個是不確定的一個訊息你應該去問這個聯電有沒有這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":7227.168,"end":7251.185,"text":"我們是經濟部基本上如果他們有意願他一定會送到我們的投資部那我們會經過我們的投審會那這個到目前為止我們有收到這樣的一個投資意向這是第一件事情第二個這個是傳聞傳聞不予置評傳聞不予置評三個五月份我會不會去美國到目前為止"},{"start":7252.607,"end":7269.425,"text":"我們的行政院的這個整體的運作是動態的到目前為止我沒有收到這個訊息所以你本來5月份要去美國參加2025選擇美國投資高峰會這個行程可能有異動是不是這個不見得是有預定要去嘛對不對"},{"start":7270.818,"end":7282.348,"text":"這個我們因為碰到這個關稅的問題國家會整體的考量那我想這個是動態的部分到目前為止我沒有收到訊息其實民眾想了解的是為什麼會關心聯電"},{"start":7287.142,"end":7313.201,"text":"這是有沒有要去幫我們是二哥去幫二哥之前護國神山是大哥嘛對不對已經去幫了Intel啦那這次我們的二哥會不會聯電變成美聯電這個是大家的問題委員我們如果要做這個所謂的這種投資啊策略的討論我們可以另外闢時間好不好我可以告訴你非常正確因為我以前在研究所教書就是教策略管理所以我可以告訴你真正的"},{"start":7314.319,"end":7329.714,"text":"這個是不可能的事情部長連電這個事情就是三個這是三個嘛民眾要知道就三個啦第一個會不會因為復國神山去了之後大哥去了之後二哥又去那連電去了有三個大的影響嘛就是你現在不是假設性的問題啦他如果真的去你現在要了解的"},{"start":7330.234,"end":7334.439,"text":"因為這個是一個產業鏈一個半導體產業鏈那你如果說我們要討論學術的研究我可以另外跟你討論所以我的意思就是說對傳言的部分對傳言的部分不予評論"},{"start":7349.395,"end":7360.922,"text":"那我五月份會不會去美國要等到這個行政院的指示因為這是動態的部長我說你不要跑到第二排去你第一排你要去面對問題連電的問題至少要面對三個問題連電問題要面對三個問題嘛第一點會不會連電跑去美國變美聯電的時候我們的半導體這個整個產業會不會受到什麼影響這第一點你是要評估的嘛這經費保證你當然要回答這個問題啊第二點"},{"start":7376.392,"end":7394.609,"text":"對我們的半導體的發展那個營業有到底影響有多大第三點是人才啊去的一定帶一堆人去嘛你這三個評估好了以後你才能夠知道說這個事情要怎麼去應對嘛要不然的話你就永遠在第二排咧好不好至少做這三個這個評估啊好那五月份我們見珍珊看你有沒有去啦好不好我簡單問一下請教一下國發會主委"},{"start":7401.021,"end":7416.876,"text":"除以一段有提到說你們之前有做了這個評估最低可能是10%最高可以到35%那為什麼如果真的有做這個評估那你們會不會太樂觀行政院長怎麼叫我們安心稅啊完全沒有意想到可能有35% 32%嗎"},{"start":7424.299,"end":7441.787,"text":"我們的版本有到32%在那天的記者會副院長有說得很清楚我們的版本最高到35%這個是如果你有去看當天的記者會如果32%你叫我們安心說這個行政院到底是在逃跑去是不是不只是無能問題啊32%整個台灣你看這個一個海嘯來"},{"start":7448.732,"end":7470.943,"text":"他焦頭爛額 驚慌失措你們會抑固到35、32 怎麼那時候沒有 怎麼可以叫我們安心稅目前沒有驚慌失措 那我們再往前推 再往前推行政院長叫我們安心稅的前面你看歐盟還有全世界多少國家 美国已經判了幾個我是建議你不要製造社會的恐慌當政府積極正面的在解決問題 我們也的確有方案在解決問題"},{"start":7472.324,"end":7500.878,"text":"那其實您如果對這個方案有意見可以協助我們強化但是不應該一直鼓勵民眾要恐慌這是我認為一定要你如果處理得很好我們現在共互國內把它處理了當然就不會恐慌如果您認為哪裡不好你應該提出來叫大家安心睡民眾才會恐慌因為委員您是很知名的財經專家其實如果您也一起大家一起來共同努力我相信國家會更好好 我覺得很重要 剛剛講的"},{"start":7501.618,"end":7524.809,"text":"天然氣這個踩過這個方向你要整體去盤整我剛剛講的我覺得現在最重要可以馬上降低那個逆差的其實就是核電啦對不對大幅降低你關稅就可以降啊而且電又穩定啊電價又可以不要漲回往下是不是要去爭取這個這才是我們這樣王牌啊我想經濟部剛才已經有對這件事有一個回應"},{"start":7527.031,"end":7551.631,"text":"因為我不負責電廠的部分所以我們沒有辦法表達意見整體的國家發展對人們講很重要而且這次你們 老實講你們兩位都是重中之重我們談的好不好就看你出去王牌好不好對不對 你現在天然氣買了對不對我說你好好去考慮一下跟賴清德賴總統的建議而且你們去談的時候把核電廠放進去這絕對是一張好牌人民會幫你們國長的電穩定對不對"},{"start":7555.987,"end":7568.297,"text":"店家又可以降不要漲美國又主動開口逆差又可以降低為什麼不做呢好不好這位老爹好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7577.961,"end":7579.402,"text":"不是,你別戴這個"},{"start":7595.196,"end":7610.213,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7623.899,"end":7625.54,"text":"這是時候的問題,為什麼這是時候的問題"},{"start":7657.689,"end":7659.109,"text":"每一船每一船"},{"start":7686.637,"end":7688.499,"text":"好 再来一个 再来一个"},{"start":7715.29,"end":7730.935,"text":"召喚人在AEA的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的那一層樓梯上的"},{"start":7743.52,"end":7747.084,"text":"如果 如果 如果 如果 如果 如果"},{"start":7784.065,"end":7785.507,"text":"谢谢大家谢谢"},{"start":7801.349,"end":7802.69,"text":"如果是政治問題"},{"start":7819.779,"end":7822.663,"text":"所以这个传统的体制是非常清楚的"},{"start":7845.018,"end":7846.659,"text":"今天馬上要為千語創作一個好片"},{"start":7871.778,"end":7872.459,"text":"現在開始開會"},{"start":7914.256,"end":7941.545,"text":"現在請鄭天才委員做詢答主席有請部長還有主委郭部長 劉主委兩位辛苦了"},{"start":7945.006,"end":7967.934,"text":"這個今天的主題我們召委這個有先見之明這個在4月2號以前就規劃了這個議題真的是有先見之明國際經貿情勢的變化正好這個3號就美國川普總統就發布了"},{"start":7971.584,"end":7994.395,"text":"美國對台關稅這個部分是媒體的報導這個美國保守派智庫研究員他計算之後他認為這個整個關稅的稅率這樣的一個比原來一起的高了四倍如果從台灣來看媒體是這樣報導"},{"start":7998.41,"end":8023.504,"text":"AEI的官网公布了重新计算对等关税税率他认为台湾应该适用10%的关税税率这跟我们财政部这是媒体的报道根据台湾财政部的数据台湾2023年平均民募关税税率约6.5%"},{"start":8025.478,"end":8047.344,"text":"故有分析意固美国对台最多实施10%的关税我之所以要特别提出来这个因为要去谈判所以也要把这些数据资料作为谈判的"},{"start":8048.733,"end":8068.788,"text":"資料之一部長一直說不能講出來了談判的籌碼但是這樣的一個資料要把它收集起來然後實際上的數據應該是怎麼樣所以我一直認為總統啊在4月4號講了這個"},{"start":8079.876,"end":8105.935,"text":"從台美雙方零關稅開始談起我就認為非常的不妥也有很多的專業人士也認為一開始談這個就不妥所以我還是建議建議就是說這個去談判的代表一定要仔細當然資料是你們要提供各部會要提供這些資料"},{"start":8109.126,"end":8136.737,"text":"應該是要最最最怎麼再怎麼樣應該是10%而不是32%這樣的一個數據怎麼樣去提供這是我的建議這個我我是外行啊我是外行但是我從參考這些資料來看的話好當然台積電我認為也是一個一個談判的談判的籌碼之一"},{"start":8138.4,"end":8165.022,"text":"我先請教這個部長台積電這個一千億加上原來的就等於一千六百多億就以現在的這個一千億來講要經過我們國家的法定的程序嗎這個程序完成了嗎報告委員現在還沒有好就是因為還沒有完成"},{"start":8166.371,"end":8194.128,"text":"所以談判代表一定要提我們的程序還沒有完成我們國內的無論是立法委員或是業界都認為都必須要列為這個看怎麼說了這個談判代表要把它說出來這個部分是一個很重要的"},{"start":8195.603,"end":8208.289,"text":"所以整個都認為說我已經一千億一千六百多億了結果還是百分之三十二對大家都沒有辦法接受啊我們一定是好了"},{"start":8210.351,"end":8235.554,"text":"所以這個部分我只是建議啦當然你們比較專業啦你們比較專業所以這個部分國發會經濟部包括其他的部會共同的在審慎的研議這個部分是不是可以成為談判的籌碼之一這個是粗淺的建議"},{"start":8237.335,"end":8266.218,"text":"我們會將委員的意見然後呈上給他們做參考對好尤其是總川普總統啊這是最近講的事業商號的媒體報導的一直在一再的不是第一次講啊事業商號又再講啊台灣抖走了美國的晶片事實上不是這樣事實上是當時的對不對以前的軍艦會"},{"start":8267.898,"end":8293.72,"text":"以前的經濟部當時的行政院對不對行政院長蔣經國那個年代把他請過來了怎麼會是奪走呢我們是給他更精進這個也要談啊也要說啊我們沒有奪啊不是我們這個也要說出來啊因為在他的認知上就是認為是這樣啊他公開說出來呢"},{"start":8295.137,"end":8319.112,"text":"比方說這個很深的那個認為,這個也要說出來,不是這樣,對不對所以這個部分,剛剛講的一千億,加上原來的六百五十億,就一千六百五十億對台灣來說這個是一個很重要,對美國也是很重要,對全世界來講都很重要"},{"start":8321.291,"end":8339.756,"text":"當然今天國會的報告裡面提到這個880億了880億這個裡面包含了經濟部主政的部分包括其他的這個農業部主政的部分這個880億這樣的一個"},{"start":8347.295,"end":8360.019,"text":"請問一下到時候是誰提出這個 是特別預算嗎 部長 那個主委會是特別預算好 那誰 哪一個部會來提報到行政院會由經濟部跟農業部經濟部跟農業部好 這個部分當然你們 因為時間很倉促時間很倉促"},{"start":8371.363,"end":8395.812,"text":"我所謂的時間很倉促就是說雖然4月2號以前4月3號以前你們有預估然後4月3號宣布然後又正好又放到連假正好就是我們的連假很多的資料相關的資訊的準備當然這個我們很多公務員都"},{"start":8397.601,"end":8421.26,"text":"也許就沒有放假但是這個資料的收集畢竟還是有限跟業界尤其是產業界包括農業然後因應相關的這些勞工或是農民這些的盤點未必那麼精準880億所以這個部分"},{"start":8426.153,"end":8452.56,"text":"還是要審慎的去把它盤點之後提出來也許足夠也許不足所以這個部分這個就就這個老公務員的立場來講是是需要再從這個審慎的盤點盡可能不要造成盡可能減少"},{"start":8454.308,"end":8461.774,"text":"我們的損失了好的謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答謝謝張偉浩我們請經濟部長郭部長"},{"start":8486.001,"end":8508.253,"text":"部長好我想這個美國把關稅高額變成32%其實對台灣的衝擊真的是蠻大的那我想我第一時間在臉書我就已經發布了這個訊息說這個部分就是因為貿易逆差因為台灣出口美國的一個高額"},{"start":8514.318,"end":8541.836,"text":"跟美國進到台灣這樣的一個貿易擬差造成美國去思考這樣的一個關稅的調整那我們要共體時間怎麼共體時間就是我們現在要去談的就是說兩個階段我可能比較不一樣其實部長我今天這個圖會比較清楚4月9號就是今天"},{"start":8543.174,"end":8556.125,"text":"今天美國對於關稅這樣的一個調漲他已經是上路了 對不對好 他也說會有談判期"},{"start":8557.761,"end":8586.252,"text":"現在所有的國家包括台灣在內都有提出要跟他談判這樣的一個方向也希望能夠有一個好的結果所以台美關稅最後定案這是一個我們非常重要的關鍵部長你看這個圖我們從4月9號到台美正式關稅最後定案"},{"start":8587.783,"end":8609.48,"text":"這當中到底是一個禮拜 兩個禮拜 一個月 兩個月 不知道可是在這談判期 我把它當成談判期在這個談判期我們針對所有的企業被取消的訂單我們政府如何協助這已經是過急症了"},{"start":8610.855,"end":8631.587,"text":"現在兩個階段這個圖寫得非常清楚台美關稅最後定案也就是我們雙方大家談判之後的結果我們台灣需要讓利在哪一個部分這是後面階段也就是可能受到衝擊的產業政府要如何協助因應"},{"start":8632.932,"end":8661.41,"text":"也就是可能面對的就是我們現在政府預計要提出特別預算在工業的部分700億農業的部分180億這是後面階段也就是長遠性的因為如果我們台美關稅最後定案這個可能就是一個長期性的狀態我們要面對的就是要如何協助這些受充其的產業可是我們要講的"},{"start":8663.087,"end":8683.148,"text":"談判期呢這個臨時已經有很多的企業已經被告知他們的訂單可能會被取消甚至有些都已經海運在空中還有甚至船起已經出發了這些部分怎麼辦"},{"start":8686.311,"end":8704.115,"text":"部長這部分怎麼辦報告委員那個船在船上的那個都是他如果在5月5月27號之前到達美國是按照原本的這個稅率這個我們有一個盤點出來說裝船是在這個4月5號之前"},{"start":8709.059,"end":8728.048,"text":"那麼他是按照原稅率,也就是說您剛才所指導的這個準的HIGH中的,這都教官來的稅率啦但是一定要給我的理智進行,到美國,報官進去所以部長,我會用這樣的圖,就是要讓你說明清楚現在很多人HIGH"},{"start":8728.288,"end":8754.081,"text":"不知道所以在4月5號以前只要我們已經上傳或是出關的這些都沒有問題5月27號之前5月27號那一天以前到達美國然後報關這個就是按照原稅率如果是4月5號到4月9號這一段期間他已經發布了那麼加10%的關稅"},{"start":8756.127,"end":8779.434,"text":"那如果是4月9號以後才出船今天以後才出船的32%這個我們會在經濟部的網站上面還有對我們的馬上辦中心以及我們的call center上面都會來報告跟國人報告所以這個國人在這方面有需求的"},{"start":8780.27,"end":8783.411,"text":"不用客氣部長你這個資訊很重要你知道這個資訊很重要嗎其實在這幾天其實我們在基層被問到最多的是那麼如果我們的訂單被取消了怎麼辦"},{"start":8799.036,"end":8822.034,"text":"好你剛已經說了有不同的階段如果在5月27號以前可以到美國報關的維持維持也就是我們原來的關稅那麼如果我們在4月5號到4月9號出關的從台灣出關的5月27號前到然後5月7號是增加10%我再一次強調4月5號以前"},{"start":8829.284,"end":8853.685,"text":"出關然後5月27號以前到達美國的員官稅然後如果4月5號到4月9號這段時間然後這個從台灣出關5月27號以前到美國的加10%那麼其他如果在4月9號以後從台灣出關的就是"},{"start":8854.446,"end":8863.679,"text":"照他們現在所有的關稅但是現在在談判所以你剛才那個點最後定案為止我們希望"},{"start":8864.682,"end":8884.596,"text":"會在5月27號以前然後可以這樣子談到一個好的稅率然後讓這個台灣的這個廠商啊可以來follow up這很重要所以我們希望我們這個最後定案希望是在5月27號以前也就是我們目前在整個"},{"start":8886.498,"end":8913.154,"text":"關稅到達美國一個界定的時間5月27號如果可以在這5月27號一簽完成談判我們就有方向這個是要穩定所有的一個中小企業的信心如果在我們這個談判因為談判不是操之在我不過我們的Priority在前面那在這一段期間裡面我們的業者"},{"start":8913.934,"end":8935.239,"text":"如果需要紓困 如果需要經濟部的協助我想我們都有準備那我們現在有開辦馬上辦中心來解決我們國人業者的擔心這個部分我們都會一一根據每一個業者不同的情形給予資助"},{"start":8936.243,"end":8964.712,"text":"部長因為其實我們在基層已經有些有些企業有接到就是要撤訂單的這樣的一個聲音了所以呢如果在這個部分有造成的無薪假或是企業損失在這個部分有需要我們政府來協助的我們有馬上辦中心可以來幫忙是好這個很重要好再來就是第二階段我們現在要去談判嘛"},{"start":8965.772,"end":8981.706,"text":"談判之後最後因為不是超支在我們我們一定要提出很多的版本那最後版本的定案是什麼當然是未知數因為這是談判的機密也不能請你們在這邊說我只有說"},{"start":8982.967,"end":8999.648,"text":"如果在談判之後最後的定案一定會有些受到衝擊真正受到衝擊的產業這個就一個時間就會比較長了就不是這個短時間喔這個時間上有可能未來都要面臨這樣的一個狀態好"},{"start":9001.77,"end":9030.219,"text":"那這個部分可能就落入到我們現在所講的我們會有特別預算的700億工業700億還有農業我們180億那這幾個方向在企業的部分可能就是資通訊產品電子零組件 汽車零組件扣件 機械零件 自行車運動器材 家具或是塑膠製品那其實很多的傳產"},{"start":9031.639,"end":9049.105,"text":"其實他們的隱形產業都在台南其實部長也知道所以其實雖然我們看到的包括汽車零組件雖然佔了1.8%甚至扣件可是其實很多它的集中地都是在台南"},{"start":9050.663,"end":9071.288,"text":"報告委員我想我們現在的881是對製造跟對農業上面產生變異的時候的一些支柱那您剛才在提的也非常重要也就是說在商業上面因為這樣而造成的連鎖的這樣的一個反應而造成resection這一部分"},{"start":9072.264,"end":9093.619,"text":"不在880億裡面這個是院長也有指示880億是第一個階段我們用特別預算來趕快來啟動接著因為後面有一段時間才會反映嘛讓我們觀察如果真正的需要我們會再提第二次的這個特別預算我想這個是一個程序啦"},{"start":9095.428,"end":9115.485,"text":"對 但是部長我們這個要先講給大家知道因為現在我們當然期待我們這個談判是一個對台灣非常有利的結果可是我們一定要讓我們台灣人民有信心讓企業穩定才不會反映在股市當中"},{"start":9116.346,"end":9134.552,"text":"你看我們的股市在星期一開盤的時候那個是整個跌停因為就是失去信心然後慢慢的我們讓大家有慢慢回升可是這個回升率還是不及大家的恐慌所以部長我剛才講的是當我們在最後台美談判的定案版"},{"start":9141.374,"end":9159.962,"text":"他可能影響的層面從我們的工業面跟我們的農業面這880億我們的協助之後那麼還有一個商業面這個商業面怎麼做我覺得我們應該不是說我們這一塊先做完那以後再談"},{"start":9161.636,"end":9188.354,"text":"人民的信心指數所以我覺得我們要講清楚我們現在對外的報告就是短期裡面我們的措施是什麼中期我們會怎麼做長期我們這個國發這個會有一個非常長期的對提升台灣在未來的產業競爭力的部分我們是不是請主委長期的部分長期的部分他已經提了2040年為止的長期的部分是"},{"start":9191.243,"end":9205.752,"text":"我們長期的部分主要是我們是要去透過三個角度去協助廠商第一個是協助企業進行轉型包括轉進到新的市場因為美國占全球進口市場3.4%這個我們都會講"},{"start":9209.074,"end":9238.674,"text":"我們都會講但是其實你所講的這些都沒有辦法直接讓人民有信心也就是說我們長期的所謂當880億我們在這個協助之後所引發的一些商業的影響我們整個市場面的問題台灣市場面的問題人民信心指數的問題在這個部分我們要怎麼幫助我們有沒有什麼樣的配套這才是重要的"},{"start":9239.734,"end":9263.881,"text":"主委這才是重要的報告委員那個中期的部分您剛才提的大概是短中期的部分那個是有經濟部在負責經濟部在負責我講的是未來長期的部分未來的話我們所謂的長期是那種10年20年的這個叫長期所以我們定義目前這一波的話就短期措施在這幾個月我們這樣子做接著在未來的"},{"start":9264.361,"end":9282.855,"text":"來 部長跟主委報告其實我們都來自基層或許你們都認為你們有在做可是這一波真的讓突然之間美國這樣的宣布已經讓所有台灣人民整個非常的驚慌"},{"start":9284.036,"end":9300.515,"text":"金孔那我覺得我們現在的責任就是穩住大家的信心所以我們希望的不是短期不是中期我們希望的是連同在整個商業面所造成的影響都應該有一個規劃"},{"start":9302.237,"end":9320.204,"text":"這個不是10年20年這個講太遠了而是你今天我們要給所有的工業轉型沒錯可是轉型不是一年兩年的事啊他要去把訂單從美國轉到歐洲市場也不是一年兩年的事啊這些市場的通路要怎麼抓"},{"start":9321.667,"end":9331.948,"text":"我覺得這是一個非常必須要面對的現實所以拜託部長跟主委我們希望看到的是你們在未來"},{"start":9333.362,"end":9354.289,"text":"在如何把這些再講一個標的時候雖然這個是標可是人民的感受不一樣我們希望給我們的是有一些能夠讓人民更加安心我們政府是有在做事情政府不是完全沒有風雲 沒有標好 拜託 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":9363.299,"end":9388.37,"text":"請謝依奉召委諮詢謝謝主席 我想要請郭部長跟劉主委請郭部長 劉主委"},{"start":9399.292,"end":9418.02,"text":"我想請就教兩位現在我們目前我們預估對於傳產是提出的是700億的特別預算對於我們的農業是180億那我想要請問以就目前"},{"start":9419.281,"end":9440.208,"text":"我們這樣子的一個情況什麼樣子的情況下你們未來去談會增加我們要補助不管是傳產微創微小型企業以及對於農業我們要增加在什麼樣子的條件下"},{"start":9441.321,"end":9454.992,"text":"報告委員 我想我剛才也有講過了880億是特別預算在現階段馬上能夠紓困止血對這些中小微企業的部分"},{"start":9456.058,"end":9482.884,"text":"那對於這個中期來講中期所謂的也不要講說中期就是說目前在處理的第一個階段我們是這個樣子那第二個階段當我們第一個階段結束的時候發現有必要再持續來協助那持續來進行的時候這個預算我相信是會再增加的會再增加的那但是這一些因為是屬於特別預算需要大院"},{"start":9483.664,"end":9511.974,"text":"所以我在說什麼情況下我知道啊但是剛才你們說了我們有非常多套的劇本我也認同我們談判絕對不能只有一套劇本但是在什麼樣子的情況下我們要給企業信心啊我們在什麼樣子的情況下會要對我們的傳產對我們的農業在提高我們特別預算什麼樣情況下"},{"start":9513.786,"end":9540.297,"text":"報告委員因為我們現在還沒有我們雖然有掌握這整個情勢啦但是每一家廠商對應這個環境的變異他需要的協助程度是不一樣的我不是每一家直接乘上多少家宿我們不是這樣子做而是直接的去訪談接觸這一些可以講說這些有受到影響的這一些廠商"},{"start":9541.337,"end":9561.036,"text":"我們來協助他需要什麼樣的協助這個是不一樣的我們有很多他可能在生產上面需要我們協助可能在訂單調整上面需要我們協助可能在金融上面需要我們協助但是產銷人發財太多了我知道我必須要去identify這一些他需要你什麼時候可以identify"},{"start":9561.576,"end":9576.057,"text":"我们现在都在进行中进行中我们现在我们整个产业发展署我们的中小企业署我们的园区管理局我们大概四个单位在进行所谓厂商的访谈"},{"start":9577.381,"end":9605.669,"text":"所以我們分別第一個我們跟我們比較高階的同仁是跟這個工會產業工會去做一些座談對實際上的廠商我們都一一的去訪談我相信這樣子得到的訊息會比較正確而不是大家用那個假設性的這個訊息所以我們對我們來講我們雖然是這樣但是我們希望能夠對症下藥"},{"start":9606.909,"end":9632.198,"text":"然後來協助他們好那什麼時候談什麼時候去美國談啊納坦雅胡對不對以色列總理他已經去美國談他們就零關稅你們希望的目標是零關稅是不是你從零關稅開始談嗎從零關稅看你們自己的目標你們自己設定的目標有沒有辦法像以色列一樣談到零關稅"},{"start":9634.074,"end":9660.877,"text":"這個是談判的這個談判小組他們的目標啦設定啦我們是盡量以不影響國內的生態然後創造有競爭優勢的的這樣的情境啦然後讓這個這個談判小組的人能夠跟對方來談我想這個有很多的這種give and take所以還沒有確定什麼時候談你看"},{"start":9662.867,"end":9690.551,"text":"石破茂他已經跟川普通電話了那他們就是優先去談那我們到底什麼時候我們比較low key啦所以我們要low profile去進行這件事情不需要那麼那怎樣我們是要隱藏起來我們是隱藏起來還是已經談了那個報告委員我們一定是這樣子一定在這個priority在前面的group"},{"start":9691.596,"end":9695.059,"text":"你已經確定我們是在Priority group在韓國之後嗎?會不會在韓國之後"},{"start":9703.765,"end":9731.123,"text":"有幾個我們主要的競爭你們都一直在談嘛只要我們不比我們主要的競爭對手的關稅還要就是高的情況下我們就有保持我們的貿易優勢但是目前我們就比日韓都還要高啊是不是報告委員那個韓國跟美國啊他們是這個FTA的"},{"start":9733.22,"end":9751.088,"text":"所以你認為我們這樣子的情況已經比過去好是不是不是比過去好了我的意思就是說不針對單一的命題去做一個假設我們是談整體的對我們中華民國"},{"start":9752.168,"end":9778.987,"text":"有幫助的對我們整個台灣的企業這個產業能夠穩住在台灣製造台灣生產這個是我們最大的目的所以你還是不確定什麼時候開始談我現在都在進行中好那對於美國所要求的消除貿易障礙的部分我們有沒有辦法做到在著作權方面"},{"start":9780.032,"end":9800.122,"text":"報告委員消除貿易障礙的部分很多是基於文化跟習慣的這個部分所以我們會跟對方溝通解釋說明台灣為什麼做了這些措施會引起他們認為是貿易障礙我想從這個地方去溝通"},{"start":9801.162,"end":9822.675,"text":"那他們會去溝通會去談判我認為我們必須要表達為什麼要做這個事情才有辦法再去做談的內容啦對不對這是give and take的部分嘛所以這個很重要美國認為重要的事情我們可能有疏忽或者是我們認為重要的事情美國他們不清楚所以這個很難談我想"},{"start":9824.996,"end":9838.248,"text":"談判啊像我跟劉主委我們在民間大概每一年這種重大談判都會碰到一兩次我這一輩子大概民間做50年的工作我大概有150次談判的這個經驗所以你會去談是不是就我們的經驗來講所以你會代表去談"},{"start":9841.411,"end":9862.388,"text":"沒有沒有我們兩個就是提供我們過去的經驗讓談判小組去談這些事情我想很多的事情我們過去的經驗可能是很久的經驗那他們現在談判小組他們與時俱進啊他們是專家我們是在外面談商業的部分所以我們可以提供一點經驗"},{"start":9863.689,"end":9883.005,"text":"那我的意思就是說談判通常會站在give and take的這個角度上面然後取得一定的平衡那這個裡面我們當然講說非貿易障礙這塊的東西不是數字可以解讀的而是要從文化習慣各方面來綜合考量"},{"start":9884.136,"end":9910.519,"text":"取得對方的諒解或者取得對方的同意或者取得對方的知曉我想這一方面有夠注意溝通啦我們只是提供這樣的意見好你站第一排太久了是不是讓那個劉主委一下主委喔剛才你在你的報告裡面提到喔就是美國的市場其實算全球市場的就是不是全部吧"},{"start":9911.69,"end":9919.497,"text":"那有86%是其他的市場可是我要給你看的是我們的數字我們國家的數字這是我國對"},{"start":9926.809,"end":9942.355,"text":"就是主要的出口數字你看到了我們的數字裡面對中國大陸與香港在我們總出口量的31.7%對美國是23.4%對東協東協也是在這一次對美國來講也是重大的損損失的國家是18.5%那我想請問我們要轉去哪裡我現在要轉去哪裡"},{"start":9957.176,"end":9983.391,"text":"委員是這樣子其實我們在很多新興的市場我們其實都還有很大的成長空間那對我們來講的話其實對廠商而言在這個時候它兩個大的可能只有三種比較可能大的方向第一個是供應鏈移轉往美國走或者是找到一個最適的生產地譬如說稅率10%的地方另外一個角度是它就市場上面進行分散"},{"start":9984.371,"end":10012.13,"text":"進行分散像最近崛起的印度市場土耳其市場其實也蠻多台灣廠商走到裡面那從這裡面賺到一桶金所以我們只是希望幫大家找到很多替代市場然後呢協助這些廠商往替代市場去發展對 問題是你找出替代市場的時候廠商會不會跟著政府的腳步走是不是廠商會不會跟著是不是你沒有提供足夠的誘因是嗎"},{"start":10013.124,"end":10024.812,"text":"我們會提供誘因之外我們其實也跟一些協會有在溝通那我們也在探討怎麼樣協助這些協會帶著他的會員往新的市場去開發好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10049.341,"end":10069.375,"text":"現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答謝謝主席 請郭部長郭部長委員好部長"},{"start":10071.311,"end":10093.59,"text":"美國總統川普他現在在進行的就是貿易的保護所以要對我們全世界的國家都要課一個對等的關稅在4月2號公布的話我們國家台灣就被課了32%那馬上4月7號我們的股市一開盤也大跌了2000點以上"},{"start":10095.271,"end":10124.697,"text":"所以在這種情況之下我們立即要應對的事情非常的多本席想詢問的就是說像我們看到日本他是被課了24%韓國被課了25%這都是我們鄰近的國家最有跟我們競爭力在競爭的國家所以我們被課了比較高的這個關稅那我們的因應方式我相信在這幾天你們也會去盤點那尤其最重要的"},{"start":10125.137,"end":10141.625,"text":"你原先在這個川普一直在預告的當下應該要先來跟我們所有的產業來做一個溝通或者是說你們要先跟美國來做一個溝通跟評估你們溝通評估了沒有"},{"start":10143.067,"end":10156.738,"text":"報告委員我想這個這一次確實是如您所講的這個來的這個比我們預期我們當然是有預期到35%最高35%最低就10%所以我們32%是算高的吧我們高的這個是計算方式我們後來發現這樣的一個計算方式"},{"start":10171.341,"end":10198.2,"text":"这个导致于我们会被课比较高的这样的一个关税不过我想那个美国他也有讲这个就是你最高的关税是然后接着来谈判谈判到我想那个谈判只有这个关税不会比这个再高因为会比这个更低就那些项目之内那我们也启动一定要跟美国再谈谈我们当然现在就是要那你要去谈之前一定要盘点各产业的需求"},{"start":10199.531,"end":10216.338,"text":"對不對 那你要怎麼談這單項談還是總個談還是說我們要讓這個關稅要降到多少心裡都要抵最重要心裡的抵是什麼我們要有籌碼去談嘛那因為川普在等著你們來談為什麼要等著你們來談你們來談 一定要帶著他說你要帶著錢來談嘛帶著利多來談嘛"},{"start":10222.401,"end":10244.879,"text":"所以在這個情況之下雖然說都是未知數談的結果怎麼樣我們也不敢有樂觀但是我們要準備好所以現在盤點的情況怎麼樣了報委員我們現在最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最"},{"start":10246.055,"end":10271.842,"text":"然後我們如果能夠談到10%這樣的關稅我們會有什麼樣的一個情境這個就是分析然後哪一些東西可能會被課32%但是是不是我們的優勢商品是不是我們的供應性商品是不是互補性的商品這裡面我們可以看就是說你美國需要但是只有我台灣可以供應"},{"start":10273.206,"end":10286.853,"text":"那你課我32%你的客戶要買單嗎所以說要部長好好的盤點嘛我們確實是都有盤點台灣對美國的出口金額從2020年一直到2024年逐年增加從505億一直到去年的1114億在這個裡面佔了52%就是資通訊"},{"start":10296.499,"end":10307.406,"text":"就是資通訊所以現在雖然說台積電不要說台積電雖然半導體跟藥品目前是暫時豁免但是我們要談的"},{"start":10308.84,"end":10329.493,"text":"就是準備看看我們台積電在已經過去投資了那現在投審會也在審查了那可不可以請美國在這方面給我們多一點力多來保障保護到我們的產業不然的話我們台積電就白白去美國投資沒有獲得更多的優惠的部分是不是"},{"start":10329.833,"end":10343.458,"text":"我想委員的意見我們都會提供給談判小組人做參考是好那本市也要知道你們現在因應方式就是特別預算增加880億這880億工業700億農業180億真的對這些產業來講真的是杯水車薪不夠那在不夠的情形之下"},{"start":10354.162,"end":10374.556,"text":"現在是先應急啦根本解決就關稅對等關稅趕快談嘛對我們再更加的有利啦所以也請你們好好盤點那現在不夠的部分我們會支持我們會支持因為產業太辛苦了因為你關稅提高的話就算產業的成本就是提高提高的話萬一訂單減少"},{"start":10377.113,"end":10394.56,"text":"的話就會裁員裁員又會發生的就是無薪假的部分再來就會失業這是連帶關係整個產業都會受到很大的衝擊所以我們一定會支持應急的方式你們趕快把每個產業都了解怎麼要去輔導該轉型的部分都要去轉型所以這不夠的部分本席在這邊也是要建議因為去年的超收稅金5283億"},{"start":10406.745,"end":10415.929,"text":"這個部分也可以做產業的紓困基金這個部分也請部長可以呈報去給行政院這個能夠解決我們產業的需求這樣子好不好是 謝謝委員那接下來剛剛有特別提到說你們盤整嘛要盤整去談的話我們進口的美國的部分你們有沒有盤整"},{"start":10427.754,"end":10447.322,"text":"他們進口我們將近30個品項的產品這些產品的話你們有沒有去盤整說哪些我們也要說釋出善意啊除了台積電來談的話這半導體來談的話其他他進口的一些品項裡面有沒有我們可以調整一下這個他們進口台灣的部分的這個關稅"},{"start":10449.076,"end":10465.802,"text":"我想這個關稅談判他不是做只有單一啦他們會總的當然是總的那我們自己要盤點嘛這30個品項你們有盤點嗎我們都提供這個資料讓談判小組他們可以去做參考有盤點這30個品項嗎對對對有嗎我們都有分析你們盤整出來數額聽你們講是都夠怎麼樣叫夠"},{"start":10470.779,"end":10482.738,"text":"你說700億的部分不是就是美國進口是30個品項你們看哪些品項可以降低這個關稅的部分來釋出我們的善意跟美國可以進一步的對談嗎"},{"start":10484.315,"end":10511.169,"text":"我們現在都會盤點其實我們從美國進口的工業性產品不多我們倒是賣到美國的東西是工業性產品多於這個農業性產品那我們現在農業產品是美國進到台灣的是比較多比我們輸到美國的這個農業性產品是比較多的所以我們會綜合去討論那其實要解決這一個關稅的問題它有很多的方法"},{"start":10511.849,"end":10529.743,"text":"那我們行政院大概就是有分配各部門大家應該分工合作然後提供給談判小組一些有利的談判的資訊我相信我們跟委員報告也都是一樣當然委員有更好的這個指教我們也希望我們能夠告訴我們對你剛才那些好的意見我們都會轉達會向上報告因為剛剛提到的是台積電半導體都到"},{"start":10536.888,"end":10549.597,"text":"美國去投資了啦你增加要增加一千億那投審會都在審查了那現在美國也把這個半導體為他們的主軸利益嘛所以他們一定會非常的重視這個是非常有利的一個條件投審會這邊要加強的來審查那我們也可以拿這個當籌碼跟美國來談讓這個有更多的利多給我們來保護我們的產業謝謝委員提示"},{"start":10561.665,"end":10572.19,"text":"這樣子的話半導體或者是藥品它可以永久的豁免這才是重點好不好加油加油謝謝好謝謝我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答謝主席請劉主委跟郭部長劉主委 郭部長我先請教一下劉主委"},{"start":10590.649,"end":10601.157,"text":"主委我先請教一下因為最近這個包括川普美國川普這邊提高關稅的部分那我們原先預估我們今年的經濟成長率其實可以超過3那這個會不會受到影響以現在這樣的狀況現在來評估的話會受到影響會受到影響可能保3會有問題嗎"},{"start":10606.961,"end":10634.363,"text":"如果照現在這樣狀況的話對 寶山會有問題寶山會有問題但是我們還是希望透過一些措施刺激國內的一方面跟美國做一些談判一方面投入80811甚至未來更多的也希望寶山應該還是我們的目標我們還是要面對目標去努力朝這個方向但是現在看來是如果照這樣看來是一個艱鉅的挑戰是的好 了解好 謝謝那個主委先請回那我問一下部長好了 部長"},{"start":10636.912,"end":10651.508,"text":"我問一下今天早上大家都在關心這個台積電部分因為AI晶片部分有流入到華為那很多人在關切恐怕會被開罰10億美元部長有這樣的事嗎報告委員我想這個對這個問題我想"},{"start":10657.472,"end":10675.445,"text":"台積電應該是台積電它是一個遵法 鎖法的公司對對這樣的一個傳聞基本上我們經濟部是不予評論這件事情但是我們相信經濟部有掌握到這件事情嗎"},{"start":10676.225,"end":10699.12,"text":"經濟部因為沒有收到這方面的報告所以沒有得到任何這樣的訊息沒有收到這樣的報告我也認為以台積電這麼大的一個國際級的公司他應該很謹慎小心他也很清楚美國的底線他也很知道這些晶片流入華為的嚴重性我們認為台積電會犯下這樣的錯誤所以我認為我對這樣的訊息其實我是懷疑的同時間我對台積電是有信心的對這個傳聞的訊息未經證實我們不予評論"},{"start":10703.424,"end":10704.348,"text":"不予評論 不過部長應該對台積電有信心吧"},{"start":10707.099,"end":10734.438,"text":"台積電我們當然是非常有信心的對守法對清楚尊規然後對各地各國的法令都非常的清楚而且遵守的一個廠商我相信他們不會輕忽這件事情我也不認為他們會這麼的輕忽讓這個晶片流到華為去然後犯下了美國這麼在乎這件事情是的所以我認為我對台積電是有信心部長應該對台積電有信心吧"},{"start":10734.998,"end":10754.276,"text":"非常有信心 非常有信心喔 很好再來我請教一下 現在也有在提到說川普說如果台積電威脅台積電如果不到美國設廠的話 課徵百分之百的關稅部長我們怎麼 這是川普所講的啦當然未來我們會做很多的一些談判的過程嘛這個我們應該會來協助溝通跟協助這個台積電吧"},{"start":10759.451,"end":10765.41,"text":"我想我們這個台積電他對他所承諾的事情我們相信台積電一定會做到"},{"start":10767.619,"end":10793.884,"text":"對 所以如果有這樣的百分之百的關稅這對台積電來說我講的是接下來我們會有很多的談判的小組會去跟美國做溝通我們希望讓美國讓川普這邊更知道怎麼樣讓台灣跟美國之間創造一個好的一個環境而不是造成更大的一些來 部長請說是 報告委員我想大家都非常清楚"},{"start":10794.878,"end":10812.257,"text":"台灣跟美國之間的科技是互補的也就是說一個產品能夠在市場上面賣得很好美國只扮演研究的角色台灣是扮演發展跟製造"},{"start":10813.905,"end":10831.121,"text":"的這個角色所以這個是完全互補也就是台灣有台灣的優勢啦台灣的不管我們的人才不管我們的各方面我們有很多我們的優勢這個部分其實未來透過談判小組我們希望讓川普讓美國這邊更清楚怎麼樣達到一個雙贏的目的而能夠而不是讓"},{"start":10833.317,"end":10857.78,"text":"我希望這一塊未來談判小組持續來努力是 他們會把握到我接下來要問一下談判小組接下來會來跟美國這邊溝通嗎我們的順位應該滿前面的嘛因為很多國家都要跟美國來做溝通我想我們的順位應該在很前面對 因為我們跟美國的貿易這個數字是相當大的嘛而且我相信美國也很在乎不過從我們沒有被列入到這個十大的這個應該是美國對我們之間還算是有一定的信心"},{"start":10859.588,"end":10883.169,"text":"我們跟美國一直維持良好的溝通所以在這一方面我們要傳達國人的這個想法或者是談判代表需要能夠提早跟美國進入談判的這個過程我想美國他一個國家這些人他要對五六十個國家甚至七八十個所以我們的順序看前面也很重要我們順序一定是在前面"},{"start":10883.809,"end":10895.677,"text":"那我問一下這個談判小組裡面部長會參與進去嗎還是我們經濟部的哪些人會參與進來談判小組的組成包括前往美國溝通部長你會去嗎"},{"start":10897.847,"end":10920.586,"text":"我到目前是沒有收到這樣的一個命令但是部長也會做準備啦反正我想部長、次長包括各相關的因為經濟部是一個重要的我們是一個團隊啦那有必要我們那個角色扮演我想我們都會善盡自己的職責不過部長跟次長跟經濟部團隊都已經做好萬全的準備了嘛我們在提供訊息方面我們確實是做好萬全準備"},{"start":10921.266,"end":10943.361,"text":"那另外賴總統其實也提到了除了從零關稅談起以外其他也提到了包括對於軍事的採購甚至投資美國我想這個都是啦減少美國的貿易赤字減少他們利差我想這也是一個努力的方向創造多元的方向那我們對於美國的採購的天然氣這個部分會持續來進行嗎"},{"start":10945.405,"end":10963.135,"text":"這個是項目之一啦項目之一啦那其他的部分呢包括像農產品的部分也會持續來加強做採購嗎我們對可以採購的部分我們當然是加強但是以國內的產業不受影響的前提作為我們這個努力的方向"},{"start":10963.855,"end":10986.914,"text":"這個當然是必然的啦 盡量減緩對於國內產業但是現在看來有些一定會受到衝擊那衝擊的時候也希望經濟部善加運用政府的這個880億甚至更多資源來協助他們度過這一波的難關是的我想這個部分我們會持續的來這是我們優先項目這個優先項目那部長 那之前他傳五月份要前往嘛這個就尊重行政院整體的規劃嘛 對不對"},{"start":10988.798,"end":11002.946,"text":"這個是行政院整理規劃整理規劃我們是動態的運作那部長也做好準備嗎就是說行政院請部長出發部長就前往這個都是大家我們是一個team一個團隊那什麼時候上場"},{"start":11004.086,"end":11028.153,"text":"這個就是由這個總教練這個就是說就像剛剛部長提到的不管是請你當先發當這個中繼甚至上最後的終結者這個我想請這邊我們隨時都是準備的部長就做好你的角色嘛每一個部長次長各單位的都扮演好每個角色都是一樣好謝謝那再來我請教一下啦有很多人說應該要這個投資中國"},{"start":11032.654,"end":11057.723,"text":"這個時間點有些國民黨某些人說投資中國甚至於應該要對美國採取比較對抗的態度然後跟中國走比較近的路部長同意這樣的看法嗎所有的這個輿論所有的這個談話我們都給予參考尊重那部長認同這樣的看法嗎基本上因為我們跟美國其中有一個非常重要的"},{"start":11058.735,"end":11087.77,"text":"就是紅色供應鏈必須要避開這是美國對我們的出國安全的一個非常重大的要求那紅色供應鏈其實是我們現在必須要檢視的所以如果在這個前提之下然後再來就是從中國輸出到美國的關稅那麼高100多%我相信我們讓我們的業者去中國投資他可能也不願意吧"},{"start":11090.073,"end":11114.353,"text":"光一個民主的國家跟一個專制的國家裡面說 官制的國家很多已經受制於人所決定啦光這樣的一個經濟的體制上面來說 我當然會比較相信是一個民主的體制是一個比較安全的除川普以外 川普旁邊還有很多的國會嘛 他還有國會的機制還有人民的機制可以去處理 這個當然是一個相對比較安全的而且這裡是一個長期的民主夥伴關係嘛"},{"start":11115.194,"end":11143.84,"text":"那中共可能就是聽了就是習近平一個人的決定而已這是一個高風險更何況現在中共內部的問題也相當的多嘛所以我認為現在去講所謂的這個親中然後跟抗美這樣路線我是非常不認同的啦我認為其實當然我們也不會刻意去跟中共為敵啦但是對於你要去抗美親中這樣路線我想這個是完全背離台灣最大利益的我們的國人業者也會對他的這個利益考量啦"},{"start":11144.58,"end":11164.013,"text":"那我們基本上還是協助他能夠避開這個經營上面的這個風險這個是我們經濟部會做的事好最後一個因為扣件其實對於影響相當大我們的扣件的有523億會受到衝擊我也希望經濟部要來加重來協助來看怎麼來處理"},{"start":11164.933,"end":11189.874,"text":"當然我們有競爭對手的關係也跟美國之間的關係但我希望這一塊經濟部能夠特別的去重視特別擴建都在高雄跟台南這邊南台灣那影響相當重大我們會每一家公司都去訪問我們也希望用專案的方式來協助這些擴建業者來渡過這一波難關好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝中午不休息延長開會時間我們現在請下一位徐巧欣委員做詢答"},{"start":11204.785,"end":11206.668,"text":"謝謝主席那我們有請經濟部長郭部長"},{"start":11216.021,"end":11233.332,"text":"文雲好部長好新聞傳出呢聯電要與全國第五大晶圓代工廠企業這個格羅方德傳出合併的消息那也引發很多人的批評說先把護國神山台積電賣掉了連二哥聯電也要賣那請問部長對這件事情您是樂觀其成還是倍感憂心部長這些假設性的這個他們已經談到滿深入了"},{"start":11245.861,"end":11274.207,"text":"我們的訊息是我認為這是假設性的命題你認為他們不會合併是假消息我們到目前為止沒有收到這樣的申請所以你認為這個聯電跟格羅方德不會合併我們沒有收到這方面的訊息嘛好那如果說他們合併的話您是樂觀其成還是您會有所憂心"},{"start":11275.451,"end":11284.759,"text":"我們認為這是假設性的命題假設性的問題你還是可以回答因為就兩個第一個就是他們會合併第二個就是他們不會合併你只有兩種選擇而已如果他們合併了你會倍感憂心還是你會樂觀其成如果他們不合併你會倍感憂心還是樂觀其成這不算是一個假設性的問題因為你只有兩種選擇你認為你要跟我討論的是學術性的探討"},{"start":11302.794,"end":11329.221,"text":"就我要問你作為一個經濟部長的探討如果是學術性的探討我認為他們不可能合併你認為他們不可能合併好你認為他們不可能合併嗎那業界有那如果合併了呢你今天要怎麼如果他們最終合併了你今天在這裡的就不會合併你確定他們不會合併就對了我說是學術性的探討他就是不會合併好沒有啦我只是問你說那如果他們最後合併了你在這裡告訴大家說不會合併"},{"start":11332.242,"end":11336.446,"text":"能夠了解的範圍之內反正我知道了 這個經濟部長告訴我們說他們不會合併那經濟部長您在5月11號到14號去這個企業領袖訪美團那參加這個美國投資高峰會裡面那有沒有可能去見證他們相關的這個MOU"},{"start":11354.68,"end":11366.252,"text":"我們會有哪一些的資源假設性的題目嘛你就已經要準備去參加了嘛那你去參加之後你2025年有沒有要去參加這個高峰會你有沒有要赴美參加這個高峰會"},{"start":11371.897,"end":11385.315,"text":"參加這個美國的這個這個高峰會這個是由行政院在調整的我們目前都是動態的所以你2025有沒有去參加你不知道"},{"start":11388.218,"end":11406.223,"text":"你說我不知道什麼你不知道你2025年美國投資高峰會你自己本人有沒有去參加我本人去不去參加不是我決定的而是由行政院決定的所以你本人不知道目前我現在目前當然是沒有說到這個指示你不知道那我也沒辦法你好像很多事情都不知道"},{"start":11407.003,"end":11426.036,"text":"那先前三月在亞利桑那州反台的時候對存在的事情的意思就是說你不會喔因為其他很多部門他今天他要準備今年要去哪裡哪裡做拜訪的時候他們的schedule都已經出來了喔我就在你這裡才有聽過說哎呀我還不知道2025年的這個活動我要去還是不要去我就在這裡才聽過你講這樣子好不好我繼續問喔你假設的問題不見得是我要知道的問題"},{"start":11436.443,"end":11447.559,"text":"那是你這樣認為我不這樣認為我在其他所有的委員會裡面我詢問說你們今年要來哪一些的出訪大家都已經把2025年的schedule都排好了目前只有你不知道目前只有我知道假設性的問題你認為是假設性的問題"},{"start":11453.587,"end":11464.734,"text":"但在其他的委員會的部長裡面他們都已經是把今年的時程表給規劃好了只有你不知道沒有關係那如果說川普他當天演說的時候有提到我們的台"},{"start":11471.198,"end":11488.045,"text":"要拿走台灣的台灣拿走所有的半導體跟晶片那後來呢商務部長又講川普之後會做更深入的研究看看要如何把全部的半導體製造從台灣移到美國那請問這個真的會發生嗎那我們會同意嗎"},{"start":11491.752,"end":11507.36,"text":"我們對各種情境的假設我們都會評估啦我們都會評估你剛剛說不會所以沒有講不會是你聽錯了那你說你那等於說政府對於美國商業部部長已經說出來的要把"},{"start":11510.581,"end":11532.35,"text":"全部的半導體從製造到台灣移到美國你們要現在開始做評估還是你們做評估已經做多久了我們早就有做評估了所以你們評估是要怎麼樣你們是所以你為什麼要說我是假設性的問題呢你們都已經做了評估了我就問說你們會同意還是不同意嘛你們評估的結果是什麼嘛評估的結果是什麼"},{"start":11537.673,"end":11559.45,"text":"這種不是假設性的嗎有很多很多是什麼你講個一個兩個來聽聽嘛一個兩個來聽聽啊不是啦你想要聽哪一個啊我隨便你我隨便你你講一兩個來聽就好因為我要知道你到底評估了什麼你說你有評估但是你評估了什麼你完全沒講那我到底知不知道那我到底能不能知道你有沒有評估啊那你要亂問啊沒有啊我亂問個屁啊"},{"start":11559.87,"end":11575.404,"text":"你剛才說你們已經有評估了然後我問你說你評估了什麼你一個都講不出來那我就講說我們有很多你要聽哪一個啊那我隨便你講一個嘛我現在在講嘛你剛才提供的Global Foundry跟聯電這個事情我可以告訴你不可能好"},{"start":11576.044,"end":11590.28,"text":"然後呢所以我們不會同意嘛對不對所以我們最後我們講說所以美國商業部長講說如果我們要把全部的半導體從台灣移到美國我們是反對的我們不會同意對吧"},{"start":11591.274,"end":11599.081,"text":"我們會有各種情境的假設你剛剛已經說了連電不會去合併跟美國這邊合併所以你的意思就已經很清楚了你不會讓全部的半導體從台灣移到美國嗎這就是一個邏輯嗎我時間到了 謝謝你這個邏輯怪怪的好 謝謝我們現在請張家俊委員做詢答"},{"start":11624.147,"end":11625.575,"text":"主席我想請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":11633.339,"end":11653.513,"text":"部長 美國4月2號對台加徵32的對等關稅這是台美經濟關係數十年來可以說是最劇烈的一個變化能夠與之比擬的大概只有45年前台美斷交可以比擬你覺得不覺得這已經是我們國家的一個危機了呢我認為這是一個難題啦但也不見得是個危機啦"},{"start":11662.028,"end":11678.476,"text":"那這880億其實您提出的希望可以紓困的這個方案需要立法院通過那這幾天連續好幾個院會我們議事都空轉了 您坐在下面會不會著急呢"},{"start":11679.366,"end":11703.489,"text":"我們大概這個是因為提特別預算我們希望能夠在這個院會我們行政院院會先通過然後趕快送來給大院來請大家立法院現在一直空轉沒辦法開會大院如果沒有辦法通過沒有辦法開會沒有辦法通過您著不著急我們就現有的就現有的這個部分先能夠來"},{"start":11704.85,"end":11729.866,"text":"你們會不會希望說這個行政院也要跟這個黨團溝通一下儘速可以來開會趕快儘速通過因為昨天有非常多的縣市長也已經呼籲這個不是我們可以我們可以決定的我現在跟你們報告的意思就是說雖然你也對我們幫助很大希望能夠早一點通過這個880億但是如果我的意思就是說我們其實是這個880億是擴增出來的"},{"start":11732.327,"end":11746.062,"text":"增加出來的這些舒緩這些中小微企業的困擾是我們本來就有一些預算存在所以如果你不能夠大院不能夠這個所以你們有另外的錢可以先支應"},{"start":11747.406,"end":11768.136,"text":"你們還有另外的錢可以先指引嗎那我本席想要提一下就在這場風暴當中其實首當其衝的不是那些擁有全國布局能力的大企業甚至也不是台積電而是我們這塊土地上最多數最辛苦最容易被犧牲的也就是我們167萬家中小微企業請問部長是否也認同呢"},{"start":11772.478,"end":11792.272,"text":"我們這一次的這個確實啊這個傷害比較大的層面是這個傳統產業也就是說這個中小微企業啦但是沒有到167萬家啦報告委員我們大概會比較辛苦的就是有幾個產業是 大概是哪幾個呢它是蘇美的"},{"start":11793.012,"end":11797.613,"text":"他做東西做起來是不會去美國的 出口的如果去大陸就沒有了所以美國在佔我們所有出口的部分但是你是認同中小23%而已所以這23%也很嚴重那你167萬加的23%也不是小數字呢對 23%裡面有一半又是我們伺服器"},{"start":11816.658,"end":11820.799,"text":"嚴肅的來檢視這個880億怎麼花啊你裡面喔報告裡面我有看到啦四大措施就是外銷貸款優惠中小微貸款加碼研發轉型補助還有涉展示中心拓展海外市場那部長我想要請教你如果假設企業訂單被取消現金流中斷員工薪水付不出來的時候"},{"start":11844.106,"end":11868.555,"text":"這四項措施有哪一項可以馬上解決問題呢我們對這個所謂的他如果是做出口的我們有幾個措施就是說他出口貸款可以做融資就是說他已經有訂單但是這些貨可能在船上或者是貨打包然後結果被通知停止出貨那既這一部分我們會給他一些資源"},{"start":11869.755,"end":11874.557,"text":"什麼樣的資源是補貼嗎直接型補貼嗎我們就是給他一些貸款啊貸款這就是我想要提出的問題了就是說可以貸款可以設點可以升級研發這其實是在補助還是在補刀因為中小企業最怕的不是沒有競爭力是撐不到可以競爭的那一天貸款也是債啊銀行也要審啊還要評估啊他們現在最缺的是解決眼前問題的這個活水"},{"start":11899.928,"end":11927.045,"text":"不是增加他們的這個負擔所以我是希望說是不是有可能將部分貸款的額度轉為直接型的補助來紓解他們現在的壓力尤其對於資金鏈中斷者能夠優先處理報告員你所關心的這個地方我們都從簡從素從優來處理希望從簡從素從優所以我們過去可能要搞一個月的我都要求他們兩天就要完成"},{"start":11927.965,"end":11948.175,"text":"所以這個我想我們從簡從適從優好謝謝謝謝部長有這樣子的決心喔那我想要請教部長目前有掌握多少家中小企業的這個訂單被終止或者是有類似的危機呢我們現在在進行訪談我們也就是說不用這個我必須要講今天雲林縣政府在"},{"start":11951.477,"end":11953.399,"text":"召集這些產業要討論目前遇到的問題但是你經濟部現在派不出人去參加因為我們每一個人都動員也是要派人去啊有的人在這裡有的人在別的委員會有的人到"},{"start":11965.896,"end":11984.047,"text":"那我很願意當這個橋樑我會去聽我也會把問題整合帶回來但也希望說另外有一個困難就是紓困的問題現在現行的紓困是有門檻的就是說要15%的營收衰退才能符合紓困門檻我想請你複展都取消了取消嗎所以這條線是已經取消了嗎都取消了"},{"start":11987.589,"end":12005.912,"text":"太好了因為我本來就想提醒部長說很多中小企業他本來就是唯利在經營甚至營收他跌個10%他可能就虧損了所以這一點希望部長能夠體諒他們我剛才講過了重塑 重優 重減所以不會有這些條款的限制"},{"start":12007.088,"end":12012.951,"text":"希望說我們所有經濟部能夠站在這個我們所有產業的角色來感受到他們的這個困難因為包括他們面臨的取消訂單 貨卡在港口 訂金拿不出來這些狀況其實也希望說我們經濟部這邊能夠趕快掌握最及時的最及時的因為呢"},{"start":12030.6,"end":12039.13,"text":"我們今天的質詢呢其實也是一個意見交流不只指出問題也希望真的有機會為我們這些企業爭取到改變那中小企業呢是我們台灣經濟的根基是數百萬家庭的這個支柱那這個"},{"start":12047.961,"end":12052.026,"text":"也許您說不算是國難只是說是一個危機但是國難當前的現在需要我們部長還有經濟部所有的官員拿出智慧然後拿出這個決斷力跟這個良知那我想"},{"start":12062.918,"end":12079.283,"text":"我們大家一起努力我們一起努力我在這個地方有一個部分暫你一點點小時間我跟你報告就是說大家很擔心說我現在東西在船上啦我在怎麼樣怎麼樣我在這邊再報告一次4月5號以前在台灣出貨的走船的是"},{"start":12080.163,"end":12104.736,"text":"都沒有問題 5月27號以前到達美國直接報關了就不受影響 是4月5號到4月9號 因為他宣布了然後這個部分是10%然後4月9號 也就是今天以後才on board那對不起 就是32%所以大家在擔心說 啊我現在準備4、5天空電了然後我有什麼東西 不知道怎麼樣"},{"start":12105.816,"end":12125.508,"text":"跟委員報告 跟大家報告就是原來的稅率這個我們會在經濟部的網站上面跟經濟部的這個公告上面可能要盡速啦 盡速因為很多人現在是非常的恐慌非常的擔憂所以如果可以盡速把它也許今天下午你就把它PO上網很多中小企業他看了他會比較安心那我也希望說"},{"start":12131.611,"end":12148.961,"text":"既然今天部長有這個決心就是要從速從寬來協助我們這些中小企業本企業比較安心我也希望說我們可以共同努力為他們開闢一條更寬鬆的道路那因為這不只是救企業也是救台灣的忠誠民眾好嗎謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請洪孟楷委員做詢答"},{"start":12166.274,"end":12168.256,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請我們經濟部長跟國發會主委國部長劉主委"},{"start":12177.418,"end":12201.54,"text":"好 部長好 主委好我想美國關稅的因應全世界大家都一起面對那當然台灣兩千三百五十萬人我們共同努力因為這不會分朝野 不會分黨派但其中一個部分我想現在因為我們也有代表團現在正在美國要準備要談判嘛 對不對都有溝通嘛 是不是好 那"},{"start":12202.421,"end":12230.509,"text":"其中一個很大的關鍵我覺得到目前為止我們還沒有聽到我們政府部門的一個說法我想也在這邊救教就是美國總統川普他用一個大帽子對等關稅那他先拿出來講是說因為台灣剋美國64%關稅所以要砍一半變32%但我們這幾天也都陸陸續續看到我們也認為說不可能有那麼高關稅嘛這是第一點第二點也有媒體報導講是說這公式是算錯了"},{"start":12231.311,"end":12249.427,"text":"那我想請教我們自己現在盤點到底台灣對美國的產品也好相關的關稅我們到底實際課多少我們實際跟美國差的關稅不到3%3%我們就相差不是不是相差是我講的是說他講64嘛是"},{"start":12251.417,"end":12275.278,"text":"對不對美國總統川普先講那個64是用那個粗糙跟對整體他的計算方式是這樣子嘛所以他就是用這個來變成是說是32嘛對不對他就變成是說要求我們要變成是32的關稅嘛那我們現在就對美國對進到台灣到底多少關稅各產品我們最高"},{"start":12276.385,"end":12295.453,"text":"因為這就不符合對等我們平均跟委員報告我們平均對美國的課的關稅大概是6.5%6.5%嗎 對不對對阿美國對我們是3.2還是3.4所以他現在變成是說他不管用什麼樣的理由他現在從原本現在3點多要一次提高10倍變32"},{"start":12296.954,"end":12312.213,"text":"他也不是說10倍啦 他就是用那個入鈔齁來除這個整個的 是嘛部長我理解 但是我們是說外面 因為他的公式拿出來而他先用這個大帽子來扣下來 所以他"},{"start":12313.594,"end":12339.404,"text":"說實在話我覺得這就是變成是我們談判的底氣以及我們談判的策略你要怎麼樣拆掉他的大帽子他講了一個64因為他這個是一體適用對全球各個國家都是用這個方法來讓大家上去跟他談判但是他的談判的目的大概不外乎幾個第一個可能是解決他貿易失衡的問題"},{"start":12339.944,"end":12350.744,"text":"是就逆差的部分第二個解決他金融失衡的問題第三個解決他的國債問題國家對解決他國家製造空中化的問題大概就是這三個問題"},{"start":12352.079,"end":12377.137,"text":"那為什麼要用關稅呢關稅你就是剛才我想這個委員也指教的很好就是他這個金融的問題國債的問題所以他需要一點Cash所以這個Cash就是從關稅來說是最快或者從投資來說是最快所以我們是不是已經嚴正的讓美方知道其實到現在為止它不是一個對等關稅因為我們收美國是所以"},{"start":12381.421,"end":12403.59,"text":"連這個所謂我們賴清德總統也提出來說現在要雙方研議甚至往零關稅的方向但實際上來講我們收美國只有6%報告委員我想總統的意思是說從零關稅開始談起對對對這是我們的底牌有一些這個就談判的籌碼Give and Take如果他沒有進來我們台灣的"},{"start":12405.117,"end":12426.537,"text":"我們台灣也沒有輸出去日本的先談 大家都是零嘛這個談判的一部分啦我給委員報告 這個我們都總體的盤過了所以我們談判小組 他們會收集各部門各個各界的這個建議他們會綜合考量以後呢然後就像剛才委員所指導的"},{"start":12427.478,"end":12448.201,"text":"然後他們會去跟美國做一些更細膩的談判好那部長你剛剛提到就說已經都整體的盤過我想我們國人也期待因為畢竟從上禮拜宣布到現在今天中午12點要生效我們也期待說政府部門已經有掌握我們目前的狀況那幾個部分我再跟您就教第一"},{"start":12448.921,"end":12474.384,"text":"藥品目前是還沒有宣布藥品跟半導體都還沒有宣布藥品跟半導體什麼時候會宣布他們要計算這個美國是如何去計算他會參考這樣的一個過程但目前我們還是沒有辦法得知我們其實這個就是因為這一次的這個變數太大就是我想我們雖然有盤但是現在不敢再先講因為這是談判的一部分"},{"start":12474.744,"end":12491.145,"text":"好那第二個部分預計何時我們真的能夠上談判桌我們有沒有掌握確知我們現在是第一群的人但現在媒體報導不管是媒體報導或說我們當然希望我們能夠儘速上談判桌嘛"},{"start":12491.963,"end":12507.205,"text":"我想在商業考量在國家考量尤其是我們在這一次這個對於我們國家來講這其實很重的一個方向32%我想都是跟委員所擔心的是一樣但是我們不能夠跟大家講"},{"start":12508.95,"end":12537.117,"text":"確確的數字因為這個會移情其他的在那個LINE上面的人不高興嘛然後會講說為什麼他台灣會到前面沒關係確實我們有在等待有機會談判我們希望啦希望這是在前面談判好那第三關鍵的部分也是今天我們這個專案報告的一個方向就是說中小企業中南部有一些這個零組件的相關也都現在已經有"},{"start":12538.017,"end":12560.098,"text":"紓困的部分跟這個轉型的部分我們都有掌握您剛才已經有講到是說有盤點了有掌握現在會有多少家的一個企業已經有宣布因為其實最近我也不希望人心惶惶其實部長這一點我要提出來的就是因為現在有人已經有看到新聞有哪一家已經有放無薪假等等的那到底實際狀況為何"},{"start":12561.679,"end":12576.517,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是透過兩個管道在收集這個資訊一個就是我們自己經濟部的同仁一家一家去拜訪這是一個管道另外一個因為怕這個太慢所以我們有開放那個call center讓他們打電話進來工業區的部分工業區"},{"start":12581.682,"end":12603.67,"text":"因為其實經濟部下面工業區有66個工業區所有我們都有服務中心是那我們就開放這個服務中心讓區內的廠商但部長我們現在66個工業區裡面的廠商狀況廠商的狀況還有這個外部的我們都在調查而且我想一步一步調查我們會了解因為每一家的這個情況不會一樣"},{"start":12604.79,"end":12621.005,"text":"所以你一個措施下去不一定每天都有效啦我是希望能夠對症下藥他需要我們協助什麼到底是金融的紓困還是我們幫他訂單的轉移或者是他將來技術的提升我想這個是不同的層次部長當然"},{"start":12621.786,"end":12648.635,"text":"您剛剛提到對症下藥這就是本席想要請教以及今天為什麼我們早晚會排這樣的一個專報其實我們都希望對症下藥但到目前為止我們想要了解說至少你從大方向經濟部下面的工業區66個工業區裡面廠商的部分一定是更加連結我可以理解跟同意中小企業它沒有辦法你完全同時間掌握但你先從大方向著手"},{"start":12649.375,"end":12670.105,"text":"工業區裡面先掌握到底現在裡面是不是真的有所謂的停止訂單是不是有所謂的這個調整是不是有所謂的無薪假這一點總是可以先做做完之後你才有辦法把你的政策再拿出來嘛否則我們上禮拜看到先講到一個所謂的特別700億經濟部農業部180億所以總共880億當然"},{"start":12674.867,"end":12701.565,"text":"合理的預算運用我們都不會反對我們也都希望能夠當台灣中小企業的後盾但重點在於是說把錢怎麼樣用在刀口上這是我們現在所關注的我們現在880億是根據過去的經驗推論出來的一個數目字但是我想我們院長有特別的交代也就是說希望我們盤點具體的這個出來以後那如果有需要增加預算"},{"start":12702.145,"end":12726.854,"text":"那麼我們會再提第二次的好 所以部長我給一個比較具體的建議因為這個禮拜五也已經排定了行政院長做特別預算的專案報告在下午的時間我們朝野黨團也都有代表要去做質詢所以這一個部分請經濟部的同仁真的一定要掌握因為我相信在禮拜五的時候一定還會有委員也詢問到不管是特別預算數額夠不夠"},{"start":12728.454,"end":12743.426,"text":"災情的狀況怎麼樣以及現在充其場面到底有多廣多少中小企業現在面臨到什麼樣的困境我想這一些部分也都需要在專案報告的時候好好的說明所以委員吹詢的部分我們會馬上來準備謝謝我們現在請劉書斌委員做詢問"},{"start":12764.39,"end":12767.393,"text":"那我要請經濟部的郭部長郭部長您好辛苦了您今天上午都在備群那這一部分我們現在看到今天我們看到的是會到這邊有這個報告最重要就是因為美國對我們這樣的一個對等的關稅的要求那看上個禮拜也看到說"},{"start":12793.424,"end":12820.674,"text":"左宗泰的政府已經有提供了880億的這樣的一個因應對策那其中看到是經濟部有410億對吧那這個情況是這樣我們繼續往下看那我想要詢問的是說在下一頁看到的是美國在下一頁在美國的這個台灣對美國的貿易概況當中最主要的是這大概七八樣產業在於資通 電子 民主建這些部分就是已經有大概65%的這樣的一個情形"},{"start":12822.975,"end":12836.45,"text":"好 那我們想要問到的是因為從經濟日報上面的一個報導當中它所呈現出來的是說呢我們跟其他國家很不一樣的是在於我們很多是屬於半成品的內容好 那我就想說請上一頁"},{"start":12837.972,"end":12858.003,"text":"但在上一頁當中所看到的是說電子資訊產品在這邊有792億的這個美元當中這邊可不可以請部長說明一下這個部分你再點一下是不是這個就是大部分都是屬於我們的是不是屬於真的是半成品你可以大致說一下嗎就是在剛才或是剛才的那幾類七八類當中"},{"start":12859.969,"end":12872.805,"text":"報告委員我想這裡面呢因為電子資訊的產品它是屬於零組件的部分是那像這個顯示卡這個伺服器也都是在某一個部分的一個這個"},{"start":12875.067,"end":12902.237,"text":"組件所以這一部分這些金額其實都是台灣的優勢商品都是台灣的優勢商品也就是說是美國的廠商委託台灣的業者幫他製造的所以這個32%的稅金只有兩個現象一個就是美國的廠商自己吸收第二個我們會幫助他們走這個9903的這個特別條款"},{"start":12904.785,"end":12927.054,"text":"這個條款裡面上面有寫明註明只要這裡面有20%這個美國的成分那麼它就可以豁免所以我們是在找各種的方法幫助台灣的業者可以暫時不適用這樣的一個條款第二個呢有很多的廠商他比較擔心那我現在已經出貨了會不會打碎"},{"start":12927.634,"end":12952.623,"text":"因為我剛才有聽過的我們再往下一頁我剛才很高興聽到部長您有說到就是說尤其是在電子自動產品當中是屬於半成品的地方很多那也就試著要爭取說有這20%是屬於美國製造的這部分的話那就是用貨品關稅那就是我下一頁的地方就是要談到的是在說就是請大家請經濟部或是我們國家在做對美的這個談判當中要加重這一邊尤其這個互補性"},{"start":12954.163,"end":12972.355,"text":"這部分呢那是全球供應業的角色在台灣裡面的不可或缺所以已經往這邊降低關稅或爭取豁免我覺得國家政府這邊往這邊走是值得肯定的好謝謝然後在下一個部分呢我想要談的這個重點在於說因為您在報告當中有提到就是在下來部分下下"},{"start":12973.732,"end":13002.385,"text":"重點在於說要去增加因為增加說對多元的一種配備這個多元開拓市場就對了因為從這個資料剛剛看到了2018年的時候其實是有大概是大概是40%左右的這樣子的一個對中跟對美那後來中有向下來那美國又上升的但是現在2024年的時候我們看到的是它已經增加到的是43%增加多了"},{"start":13002.765,"end":13030.558,"text":"所以你的多元分散其中還是在集中在中國跟美國的情況之下呢這個部分是在把雞蛋放在一個籃子上面那我想要詢問的是說既然這是有100億要作為開拓的多元市場那請問新市場的這個對象國是在哪裡那這樣我們有競爭力嗎這是個重點我們在新市場的地方大概是放在三個地方第一個就是歐洲第二個印度土耳其哇"},{"start":13032.028,"end":13052.062,"text":"好謝謝這是非常好那基本上真的很可行那現在就是目標性就往這邊去就對了是好謝謝那非常好就要得到這個看到讓廠商會有這樣的一個希望那另外我們再往下看齁這個部分我想要請國防會主委羅主委請你上台一下那同樣就是這個部長你請在旁邊這部分羅主委"},{"start":13052.842,"end":13071.105,"text":"那同樣的情況之下問一下那對於這邊也是說要調整供應鏈嘛這是國發會的報告嘛那這種情況之下你跟經濟部的合作分工狀況是怎麼樣還有在要特別去提升AI競爭力那國科會當中呢也有好不然就講國科會的分工好了就請你做跟經濟部的分工是怎麼樣"},{"start":13073.288,"end":13091.196,"text":"我們是做中長期整理計畫之後我們就會跟經濟部、國科會、速發部這些只要在這個計畫內有相關的部會我們都會進行協商、分工、執行然後我們國安會是負責整合的部分所以你是做整合的部分那請問你們預算是多少呢"},{"start":13092.781,"end":13108.871,"text":"現在這整個預算還在規劃之中那我們規劃完之後會跟院提出來一個整體的計劃報告之後我們就會會有預算的需求就會提出來希望說下禮拜 而是說禮拜五的時候就看到行政院長報告之後可能也有出現"},{"start":13109.531,"end":13130.06,"text":"好 那在下一個部分的時候也是兩位的報告 兩個部會的部分報告當中就提說要增加所謂的補助研發的這個轉型那經濟部長就說您這兩百億有當作是加值台灣的中小型企業嘛那這邊我也想要請問的是說那這個部分跟國科會當中的百工百業數位轉型我覺得這方向是對的 那你們怎麼進行請 部長"},{"start":13133.772,"end":13151.053,"text":"在這部分200億的重點我們其實是放在我們的法人機構法人機構在做一些這個發展跟製造的部分在develop包括工研院包括我們的金屬工芯然後我們過去只是教"},{"start":13153.195,"end":13175.612,"text":"讓這個業者學但是我們要讓他習跟做就是讓他學習然後會操作新的這個技術這個是我們重點所以我們要建立很多的這個習作的場域跟買很多可以AI使用的這個設備其實我們有一個轉型的這個資料這個我們大概如果這個委員有"},{"start":13176.632,"end":13200.585,"text":"希望經濟部提供給我來做參考謝謝同樣的問國發會這邊你們是有提升AI競爭力提升船廠的經費這部分國發會這邊也是屬於整合嗎還是扮演什麼角色還有您跟4月4號3號之前的AI競爭力有什麼不同因為被人家說是舊瓶裝新瓶舊酒裝新瓶而已"},{"start":13204.049,"end":13229.66,"text":"這個是是這樣子的齁這個本來就我們就有編列公務預算在執行這個部分那我們還是以國家費還是整合的單位齁那還是由部會來實際執行那這個但是因為針對對等關稅的影響我們會擴大這個部分的支出跟方案那經費還是還沒有預算盤點我們希望對我們現在在爭取更多的預算來做這件事"},{"start":13230.169,"end":13245.95,"text":"所以在特別預算的部分要加入對不對對我們希望是這樣好那就謝謝兩位部會首長這邊非常辛苦來就讓這個全民來做一個這樣的分析解說謝謝好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請李光誠委員做詢答"},{"start":13258.314,"end":13262.08,"text":"謝謝主席我們請經濟部的郭部長還有國發會的劉主委"},{"start":13269.987,"end":13298.531,"text":"部長跟主委都辛苦了最近這幾天為了美國關稅的事情相信大家都卯足全力在做這件事情可是其實因為我在財政委員會我在關稅還沒有公布之前其實不論是央行或是財政部都沒有提到會有課到32%這麼高的關稅所以這個32%的關稅出來之後有沒有超乎你們的預期"},{"start":13300.18,"end":13328.574,"text":"報告委員我想這個整體的營業小組來講我們在做評估的時候是有算到35%有算到35%高標是35%那你們高標的35%是按照川普這種方式算出來的嗎因為他是算貿易逆差的不是我們有各種這個評估的方法各種評估的方法所以你們那時候算出來有最高到35%但是不是像川普這種算法就對了川普這種算法有沒有在你們的這個"},{"start":13330.001,"end":13356.379,"text":"評估裡面他是一個比較舊的計算方式比較舊的計算方式應該好像是19400還是什麼時候的一個計算方式好那請教一下那就是說現在早上很多委員都很關心就是說接下來要跟這個美國談判嘛因為4月9號其實12點台灣的關稅其實就算是生效了嘛我們就是算是課32%了對不對"},{"start":13359.264,"end":13383.908,"text":"就是今天開始出貨的就是32%今天開始出貨的到美國的就是算32%那你剛有提到啦就是說有什麼在船上的然後之前已經出貨的有一個時間的算法就對了那請問一下那現在我們跟美國的談判我剛看這個委員在問已經有接上線了而且是排在前面在談了"},{"start":13385.188,"end":13408.749,"text":"我們當然在這個line上面我們應該是排在前面啦但是還沒有正式談還沒有正式談好那其實川普的算法也很簡單貿易逆差這麼大他要的就是第一個你就是多買美國貨那第二個呢就是減少這個逆差就是擴大去美國投資嘛那這兩點的話目前我們做什麼樣的準備"},{"start":13410.305,"end":13424.777,"text":"我們擴大買美國的東西這個部分我想我們都有在盤點然後實際依照國內的情形以不傷害國內的廠商的利益為主我們進行擴大對美國的採購"},{"start":13427.679,"end":13444.252,"text":"因為我們採購的東西不是只有美國一個國家我們有很多其他的國家採購的東西我們可以稍微來在這上面做一些調整但民間的企業的部分我們比較沒有算到我們這一次但是我們在國營的企業"},{"start":13445.712,"end":13470.97,"text":"我們的機構所需要的採購我們可以調整方向比如說大家可能關心的能源的問題能源問題可以攻擊的國家蠻多的所以根據在目前的這個階段我們就是擴大對美國的採購比如像天然氣比如說像天然氣其他的部分也有OK好那現在開始對中國的關稅是課到這個104%"},{"start":13475.009,"end":13478.041,"text":"那我們還是有台商在那邊那這樣對台商的影響咧"},{"start":13479.246,"end":13507.847,"text":"我們大概希望是這樣子就是說對在這件事件會影響到我們的台商在中國的台商或者在東南亞的台商那我們可能就是有兩個方向來幫助他們第一個就協助他們轉移不賣到美國賣到其他的國家因為美國畢竟佔整個這個全球的這個貿易市場沒有那麼大所以他還有其他的市場可以去"},{"start":13509.69,"end":13532.304,"text":"去銷售這是幫助他第二個如果他的產品是以美國為重點那我們有兩個方式第一個就請他回來台灣製造台灣生產這個是優先第二個如果他是需要美國那邊的資源的他的市場跟資源都在美國那我們協助他"},{"start":13533.405,"end":13562.404,"text":"到美國去透過我的之前跟大家報告的境外關內也就是說由我們政府跟美國政府來共同成立一個管理機構協助我們台商可以快速的出海落地然後在那個地方做一站式的我們做一站式的服務讓他們可以避免一些行政上面往來的時間過去在美國要設一個工廠最快要四年"},{"start":13563.683,"end":13588.799,"text":"但是如果說我們用這個統一在這個行政的這樣的一個服務的話大概可以縮短成兩年你這樣講是比較長期的耶大概要花一年到兩年的時間所以短期的話我們希望他轉移市場幫他調整訂單轉移市場另外一個報告委員另外一個如果他的產品在美國由我們台灣的廠商在製造的"},{"start":13590.16,"end":13617.014,"text":"我們請他幫台灣的品牌做OEM然後他市場上面照樣用他自己的品牌去銷售但是製造請我們台商在美國的同業幫他製造這說得通嗎?通了嗎?通通是通啊有跟他們講過了嗎?有跟他們講過了嗎?這個我們在之前我們在這件事情之前就已經跟很多的業者在討論了"},{"start":13618.476,"end":13647.139,"text":"因為其實我們的網通設備我們的PC我們的筆電伺服器手機零件這個會受到很大的影響啊這個不見得我跟委員報告台灣的很多的廠商是做EMS他很多做EMS或是幫人家代工所以那個稅是由美國的客戶在繳所以你說這樣子課了104%的關稅對台灣的這些台商影響不大對台灣的才有對台灣的才有"},{"start":13647.947,"end":13659.911,"text":"好 我最後問一下就是說對於經濟的影響這個彭博他有說到他就說台灣對美國的出口可能會銳減63%導致對台灣GDP下滑約3.8%這個劉主委是不是可以答一下"},{"start":13665.28,"end":13674.285,"text":"因為他這個數字出來其實還蠻震撼的其實目前我們有委託專業機構進行研究目前出來的數字是減少0.43到1.610.43到1.61這是在"},{"start":13680.915,"end":13702.384,"text":"關稅確定32發之後算了嗎?對確定關稅之後我們委外研究的我們現在是在委託另外一家研究機構做第二次的檢核那所以沒有像這個什麼彭博他們所講的這一個會掉了這麼多就對了對目前是出來的數字是沒有好我再問最後就是其實這881比較是像是這一個"},{"start":13706.249,"end":13708.858,"text":"讓台灣的廠商能夠渡過難關那我請問一下是881夠嗎"},{"start":13713.298,"end":13740.031,"text":"880億其實它是一個可以隨時在市狀況再進行調整的我是覺得是880億可能還不夠雖然我不知道說談判的情況是怎麼樣但是這個短時間你用880億因為我不知道這個數字最後怎麼算出來的700是屬於工業部門 180是屬於這個農業部門但是我直覺啦我直覺這個對廠商來講可能還不夠啦那你們有沒有想說這個再爭取再多一點部長"},{"start":13742.944,"end":13763.42,"text":"報告委員我想881是我們有一個假設的稅率啦可能造成了這個影響所以我們大概881你說假設的稅率是多少這是我們有一個假設的這個抱歉在這個地方不能夠來談因為現在還在談判嘛所以這個部分只能X好不好X的話我們大概881是夠的高於這個X"},{"start":13767.148,"end":13779.011,"text":"那881就像您所說的可能不夠我們會有第二次的特別預算所以是希望881就夠用就對了以下以下好 OK好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主委好 謝謝現在請鐘嘉斌委員做詢答"},{"start":13796.717,"end":13805.438,"text":"主席 在場的委員 現屆列席的政府機關總統 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請郭部長跟劉主委郭部長 劉主委"},{"start":13813.154,"end":13838.778,"text":"委員好 部長好 主委好兩位都是經貿財政的專家 容我班門弄斧今天我的題目是台灣要擴大對美採購 要降低美國對台的貿易逆差而且要嚴防中國起產地 避免遭美國圍堵我來先表述一下大家這幾天緊張的事情請問部長你認為川普總統 美國總統他要解決什麼問題他最面之在之的是什麼"},{"start":13839.741,"end":13853.164,"text":"報告委員我想他解決三個問題但是念之再之的是他的這個金融失控的問題是然後呢然後再來就是貿易失衡的問題第三個解決製造空通化的問題很好"},{"start":13854.008,"end":13871.783,"text":"大概跟我的很接近我覺得他要解決美國的赤字哪兩種赤字貿易赤字跟財政赤字貿易赤字主要來源是包括中國在內的不對等貿易就是逆差財政赤字他要削減政府支出要增加財政收入我這樣講 劉主委認為有沒有符合川普的目前的想法"},{"start":13873.084,"end":13888.678,"text":"有的 好 我們來看還有他解決他目前中低階階的結業機會是 很好 那製造他就會往下看來 川普開出各國不等的關稅清單目的是什麼大家都不合理啊部長你覺得他的目的是什麼"},{"start":13890.12,"end":13916.277,"text":"一句話他的目的他的目的就叫你繳關稅啊我覺得不是這樣他要你上談判桌因為不合理嘛所以你會跟他argue嘛所以你要上談判桌但是談判的目的是什麼呢兩個目的第一他要維持對中國的高關稅第二他希望他的貿易主要對手友邦他建立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟來對抗中國你認為我這個推測合理嗎 劉主委"},{"start":13919.653,"end":13943.998,"text":"我想這是一個選項之一但是我很樂觀的認為他不是要跟其他的貿易對手課高關稅他是要叫你調低零關稅我就跟你成為一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟然後我們都對中國圍堵好往下看如果零關稅同盟圍堵中國產生什麼結果呢第一本來消亡美國的中國貨被同盟國取代因為中國高關稅嘛"},{"start":13945.219,"end":13965.491,"text":"本來很有競爭力的 現在呢 盟國是零關稅所以盟國就取代銷往美國的中國貨 是不是這樣子 部長可以這樣的 這個方向來討論但是同樣的 中國也對你美國高關稅啊所以美國貨銷不到同盟國去 他要銷給誰銷給零關稅的同盟國嘛 是不是這樣子"},{"start":13967.034,"end":13984.246,"text":"我們都是零關稅同盲,所以他賣給我們,好,往下看所以美國輸台,如果是零關稅,能改善美國的貿易逆差嗎?有兩個可能一個是有的產品會啊,真的零關稅之後我們就跟美國買啊部長是不是這樣?什麼會跟美國買?主委你覺得哪個會跟美國買?零關稅後會有一些產品的確我直接跟你講,我來自農業圈,我們很擔心的,農產品"},{"start":13993.952,"end":14011.984,"text":"黃小玉啊這些牛奶乳製品啊還有什麼還有這些其他的美國的出口大宗那我們要因應產業衝擊明天會問農業部但是有的產品不會什麼產品不會我請教一下美國車跟日本車都零關稅你覺得國人會買美國車還是日本車我直接講好了我想很多人都會選擇還是買日本車所以零關稅也不見得能解決美國銷台的輸售問題就要擴大採購往下看"},{"start":14024.028,"end":14051.471,"text":"所以我在3月17號就建議要加大對美的採購其實最美採購的大家第一宗就是什麼 能源嘛所以部長 現在我們台電跟台灣中油是不是有擴大要跟美國採購天然氣有可能沒有 有可能 好 很好但是為什麼台灣過去不買呢因為跟澳洲買比較便宜啊 至少運匯便宜啊運匯跟關稅有沒有關係 沒有關係啊就算零關稅 我跟澳洲買運匯便宜啊 跟美國買運匯貴 所以"},{"start":14053.112,"end":14077.426,"text":"成本會提高 應經部要不要因應台電買比較貴的電纜器又要不影響電價經濟部要不要因應 部長要不要因應這一部分我想我們會擴大評估啦從成本的概念 從時間的方面都可以評估好 下一頁但是 好啦 我們解決了對美擴大採購問題之後日月難都降到零關稅了 為什麼美國認為還不夠"},{"start":14079.352,"end":14092.618,"text":"部長你覺得呢他這裡面有很多就是國家補助啊國家補助還有一個最重要的如果越南跟美國之間是零關稅但是越南跟中國也是零關稅中國就洗越南的產地去美國啊有沒有辦法防堵"},{"start":14094.056,"end":14118.751,"text":"美國要防堵中國有沒有辦法防堵 不行除了我們之間彼此零關稅你越南要跟中國要建立一個關稅壁壘或非關稅壁壘 是不是這樣子你點頭嘛 往下看所以說台灣也要擔心美國我相信我們可以跟美國彼此零關稅這個希望可能很高但是當我們跟美國零關稅美國還是會把酒勤勤的在打什麼中國產品有沒有透過你台灣洗產地啊請問 部長"},{"start":14122.011,"end":14149.284,"text":"有沒有這個過去的實例 有嘛從中國進口建設機到台灣來交貨其實又貼什麼 改標籤嘛養殖的東西 水產品透過活魚搬運跑到台灣來 有沒有有的是賣過去 有的是賣過來有沒有 好 往下看所以部長台灣輸出美國的主要商品有哪些你們有沒有統計你說產品的產品我們賣給美國的東西主要是半導體電子產業"},{"start":14151.038,"end":14169.646,"text":"五金零件還有呢比較優勢的就是半導體嘛然後電子相關的零組件然後還有汽車零件的這個部分那一旦零關稅之後呢台灣很多的產品就更具有競爭力可以到美國市場了但是美國會擔心啊你的上游供應員有沒有來自中國是不是這樣子"},{"start":14170.694,"end":14190.419,"text":"我們現在大概因為跟美國在談就是飛鴻供應鏈是我是意思說我們要注意到當美國這樣看越南的時候零關稅還不夠的時候我們台灣也要遇到當我們也跟他零關稅之後他還是會檢視你輸出到美國的東西有沒有含有中國成分是是這樣嗎是主委你同意嗎"},{"start":14193.252,"end":14209.098,"text":"這是有可能的所以我做個結論其實這次我個人認為川普先生他主要的目的要解決美國的赤字包括貿易赤字跟財政赤字在貿易赤字部分最大的對手就是中國造成的不公平的貿易因此他要求"},{"start":14209.958,"end":14235.675,"text":"主要的貿易對手跟他成立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟要求彼此之間零關稅那麼讓同盟的產品可以取代美國市場上的中國貨另外呢他也希望同盟國開放你的國內市場讓我美國商品銷售但是由於美國商品有他的非關稅因素台灣可能必須特定的去進行大量的採購另外當台灣想要對美國零關稅的時候美國也會嚴格防止"},{"start":14236.275,"end":14256.076,"text":"我們台灣消美的產品有沒有含有中國成分所以結論請經濟部盤點消美的主要產品上游的供應鏈是不是含有中國製品可以嗎可以而且要提出調整對策因為我知道我們有很多的產業它是跟中國有一個供應鏈的關係一定要提出對策可以嗎這個是主委的事情嗎"},{"start":14257.536,"end":14271.073,"text":"這部長的事情部長可以嗎我現在在交代他們馬上謝謝馬上處理可能我下午就拿到了好那麼就謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請蔡義渝召委做巡打"},{"start":14286.257,"end":14289.703,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們有請經濟部部長跟國發會我們劉主委好"},{"start":14300.189,"end":14319.183,"text":"部長跟主委那針對這一次的美國對等關稅那當然對台灣課32%那現在有很多的討論包括我們跟美國之間是不是走到零關稅或者是我們擴大對美國採購能源的相關項目來緩和我們對美國的貿易順差"},{"start":14321.425,"end":14335.212,"text":"但是我覺得這個都是比較長遠的事情因為談判現在才剛開始但是在談判的這個過程中部長你覺得有可能爭取到在談判期間讓這個32%的這個關稅的一個啟動時間讓他暫緩嗎"},{"start":14342.842,"end":14358.958,"text":"這一點有沒有信心爭取到?這個是我們的期許啦我們的期許嘛對不對對啊但是這個決定權在美國所以我們當然要去爭取但所以我就擔心了我就擔心了說如果萬一在4月9號前我們沒有爭取到這一個關稅32%的啟動"},{"start":14361.981,"end":14376.689,"text":"那現階段馬上台灣的台廠就要面對一個問題,就是說我要出口到美國的,我可能現在正在專櫃,我可能現在正在海上,我們回去的時候過去這個關稅如果課的話,應該是由在美國的那一方要負責這個32%"},{"start":14384.713,"end":14394.301,"text":"但是他現在就會說 哇這個32%下去 我不合他爪子給我們台廠公 不然延後出貨我延後給你拿 還是我爪子沒了"},{"start":14396.42,"end":14421.202,"text":"所以這會馬上面對一個問題這個台廠就是說我這裡的費水斷掉了那你也知道我們事實上台灣如果做代工為主的一些產業的話他這裡代工的東西又涉及到了所謂有智慧財產權有IP的一個限制我們同樣的這些貨除了出到這個訂單下訂單的國家要轉售出去還會受到IP的限制"},{"start":14422.043,"end":14451.187,"text":"所以這個會有雙重的一個打擊所以我要具體的請教部長說我們要幫這個企業就是要讓主席賭到的總控所以如果他們在跟美國的廠商在談判32%如果沒辦法順利的時候政府可以做怎樣的協助來我想要請教部長報告委員我想這個現在已經過了12點12點過後以後就適用這個32%的稅率但是12點之前出貨的一個禮拜前出貨的"},{"start":14452.755,"end":14463.948,"text":"五月二十七號到美國他打十趴啦一個拜訪出席 都教官來的稅率啦所以一個拜訪出席的意思是說為什麼要處理 是說告美國 還是我們準賽處理就算啦"},{"start":14468.292,"end":14481.505,"text":"5月27日那天就是說4月15日以前出席5月27日可以告美國的這都是早晚的稅率要早晚的稅率如果4月15日到4月19日跟今天中午之前出的90%現在已經持續12天了這個時候出席去美國的"},{"start":14487.125,"end":14498.033,"text":"要加30% 要加30%所以因為這個情形 所以我們很輕鬆已經收到美國那邊的通緝暫緩出貨 暫緩出貨嘛 暫緩出貨很多廠商就這樣跟我反映啊對 這個部分造成它的金融頂頭的問題是我們都有準備要如何讓它紓困"},{"start":14512.683,"end":14538.123,"text":"要怎麼讓他能夠就寢離瀉就寢的時候 特別是中小銀行來說中小企業 他要把我們的貸款 把我們的中小企業的貸款我們都會給予一些重寬 重塑 重減的方式來協助他們市長 所以你這說的很重要的就是說雨天不能說散"},{"start":14539.749,"end":14551.634,"text":"現在大家很擔心啦,我們現在真的是很擔心,就是第一類他們現在暫緩出貨,這些東西就囤在他們那裡,所以他們後面他們的生產所也會對這個出問題喔,所以這個事情一旦拖久了,這個32%客在那邊又暫緩出貨,對他們的整個生產線,然後他們的資金調動,整個就卡住了"},{"start":14561.778,"end":14583.676,"text":"所以台廠會馬上面對的這都是一連串的一個問題所以第一類我們對於他們在於說這種短期的需要這個貸款需求的雨天不能收傘第二個部長你剛剛講的重塑重減這件事情要怎麼做一個落實然後第三個就是我們880億我們除了現在想像的到的農漁牧產品會受到首當其衝在未來的談判中"},{"start":14588.56,"end":14607.757,"text":"農漁牧產品大概是受傷最嚴重的第二個就是這880億能不能具體用在協助廠商在這個時候給他給予他們更多利息的一個優惠讓他們一旦有獲利因為卡掉了他們真的這個倉儲成本啊或者是他們的生產線不順的時候"},{"start":14609.819,"end":14623.611,"text":"這個時候我覺得我們經濟部應該都要下鄉跟很多廠商 愛做堂會 愛做堂會 大家要知道他們現在的狀況 實際上要判斷起來 到底我們台灣的企業有多少因為這個延後出貨 因為這個32% 目前他們的商品是調遷的 我覺得這個都要趕快去了解"},{"start":14629.036,"end":14642.87,"text":"是 報告委員我們現在的做法是這樣子我們園區管理局有66個園區裡面的廠商是數千家數萬家我們是透過園區管理局先了解區內的廠商的需求"},{"start":14644.071,"end":14655.723,"text":"第二個我們有開設這個call center這個馬上辦服務中心在我們中小企業署上面然後我們會啟動讓他們打電話來詢問他們的問題"},{"start":14659.927,"end":14679.005,"text":"我們也啟動這個說如果需要的話請他我們一對一的來輔導他了解他到底他的問題是怎麼樣子那該紓困的紓困該輔導的輔導我想我們這一次啟動的除了快速的去了解問題然後我們希望能夠對症下藥"},{"start":14679.445,"end":14708.428,"text":"好 部長那你剛剛講到的就是說我們可能會針對現在國內62個這個我們的產業園區這是經濟部管轄的產業園區但是部長也許你也不要忘了事實上台灣有很多隱形冠軍他們是在早期沒有進到園區裡面甚至就是包括說我們公布法通過的有很多這些農地工廠事實上現在農地工廠除了土地跟他們的建物還沒有辦法合法之外他們的生產力是很高的"},{"start":14709.408,"end":14729.018,"text":"他們都是台灣的隱形冠軍我認為雨天不應該收場的也應該都是包括他們報告委員我們不是只有針對我們自己的園區我們會跟各地方的工業會來舉辦座談或者是直接去拜訪就是有需要我們協助的我們是優先處理"},{"start":14730.318,"end":14754.367,"text":"對於那個產業的發展因為不是每一家公司都對美國的這個關稅會有影響不是每一家都會去美國但是可能會有連帶的擴散會有一些擴散的影響所以我們基本上是防止一波的往外擴散真正對需要協助的廠商可以快速的協助所以部長我是再次呼籲"},{"start":14755.447,"end":14773.9,"text":"因為我們現在要說零關稅現在要說擴大對美的一個採購這個真的是比較長遠的方向但是現階段就是要趕快扶持這些產業面對馬上的衝擊這件事很要緊所以我希望部隊包括我們主委真的要跟廠商有機會就叫他們包括他們有很多的同業工會就叫他們來講叫他們來協助"},{"start":14783.627,"end":14812.706,"text":"從過去就一直進行啦 我想這個要加速這個危機讓他們先渡過你看一下事實上如果以台灣這個台股來說你看這幾天還不斷的在看起來還在跌啦事實上台灣的廠商在這一次32%的衝擊很大因為我們的產品很多都是在產業鏈的一環裡面既然在這個產業鏈的一環他就很少廠商可以說他完全置身事外"},{"start":14813.687,"end":14818.129,"text":"算他雖然是一個很細胞 可能若是這種東西不然就一樣就是會調查好不好 部長是好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請黃國昌委員做詢答謝謝主席 有請部長郭部長"},{"start":14845.509,"end":14874.031,"text":"委員好部長好,那個川普政府對台灣客家的32%的高關稅生效了沒有?嗯?川普政府啊,對我國的產品客家的32%的高關稅生效了沒有?從現在12點,今天的12點開始生效對嘛,我剛剛在下面聽有委員問你,說要爭取要延緩生效你還說你會盡量努力我坐在下面聽完全聽不懂啊現在就已經生效啦"},{"start":14874.943,"end":14898.67,"text":"第二個,我們目前針對有關於高關稅產業衝擊影響評估做好了沒有?我們有做了已經做好了嗎?什麼時候可以提供給所有的委員?影響評估我們都有評估對可能衝擊的產業做法因為我們到現在拿不到我們的網站都有公告公告在網站上面?"},{"start":14900.267,"end":14923.093,"text":"我們具體的行政院的部分要14號才會出來14號才會出來經濟部這樣講好了行政院的部分14號才會出來院長禮拜五就要來這邊報告了我們那天去行政院開會的時候我跟院長要衝擊影響評估他們說做好了我請他們提供到現在也沒拿到"},{"start":14924.747,"end":14936.998,"text":"所以就經濟部的部分已經先做好了是嗎那惠後部長可以提供嗎惠後部長可以提供嗎好那就請今天惠後部長提供我們進一步談針對賴總統所主張的零關稅經濟部的立場怎麼樣 讚不讚成"},{"start":14942.779,"end":14961.103,"text":"零關稅開始談判不是零關稅支持不支持這個由我們的談判小組他們去處理所以這個由談判小組來決定而不是由經濟部這邊經濟部是提供資訊讓整體的在政策的立場上面從零關稅開始談 部長您贊不贊成零關稅"},{"start":14965.416,"end":14982.318,"text":"開始談當然贊成當然贊成嘛那如果跟美國針對有關於從零關稅開始談的這件事情你認為台灣政府應該表達的形式是什麼所以表達的形式是我們主動把關稅降下來還是要簽自由貿易協定"},{"start":14983.359,"end":15010.307,"text":"我們當然是以自由貿易協定為我們前提啦機率高不高我們沒有辦法判斷沒有辦法判斷嘛好那我們先澄清一個問題假設如果不是簽BTA的話假設啦如果不是簽BTA的話我們把關稅對美國的部分把它降下來了其他國家是不是要一體適用這個部分我們談判不會朝這個WTO的這個條款去談"},{"start":15011.653,"end":15018.188,"text":"我們該跟美國談這個就是台美之間的這個決定是啊是啊那個部長那個WTO相關的規範你應該還熟吧"},{"start":15020.083,"end":15049.343,"text":"還好嘛對嘛好那如果沒有BTA的話我們對美國降關稅對其他國家其他國家主張用最惠國待遇原則要怎麼辦不會啊我們這次談判應該是不朝那個方向那個是我們跟美國談嘛跟其他國家根本沒有在談這件事嘛我們談判的單位不可能說以傷害國內的這個權益為止當然我了解是所以嘛我才一直強調嘛為什麼我們在跟美國談的時候希望能夠爭取到BTA嘛"},{"start":15050.263,"end":15059.833,"text":"你如果沒有爭取到BTA的話在WTO的架構下那不就是有最惠國待遇原則嗎我講的應該沒有錯啊這個是很基本的事情啊"},{"start":15061.508,"end":15090.237,"text":"現在我擔心的就是什麼我並沒有說委員你是錯的對啦我們還是回到問題的基點嘛如果沒有簽到BTA我們對美國降關稅其他國家不能援引嗎其他國家會援引啊那個衝擊影響啊是遠遠超乎喔現在我們在政府所估算的範圍行政院所提供給委員們的那份報告您看過沒有您看過沒有我不是委員所以我沒有看過"},{"start":15090.842,"end":15110.044,"text":"所以行政院在提那個報告給委員的時候你也沒有參與我不是委員啊所以我不會收到不是啊 那是行政院出來的報告啊那個是行政院出來的報告你是經濟部部長你還不熟喔我是經濟部部長所以我只熟經濟部的部分所以就經濟部的部分提供給委員的部分你看過沒有"},{"start":15111.519,"end":15123.77,"text":"我們送出去給行政院的報告我當然看過啦但行政院送什麼給我們你不清楚就對了行政院調整過他會調整嘛是所以那一部分我沒有看嘛沒關係啊但我不是委員嘛所以我看不到部長"},{"start":15124.636,"end":15153.694,"text":"你趕快看啊星期五的時候你就要陪院長啊到這邊啊來進行報告了我給你善意啊的提醒第二個部分啊針對美國貿易代表署啊在計算關稅的這個公式你看過了嗎我知道你知道嗎你贊不贊成這個公式這個我我贊不贊成我當然是不是不贊成啊那你覺得這個公式有什麼問題這個公式當然我不是數學家啦所以我沒有辦法回答你這個問題"},{"start":15154.827,"end":15182.278,"text":"不是啊 可是你剛剛已經說你不贊成啦我不贊成不代表我懂所以這個公式你也看不懂嗎這個公式我就是看不懂所以不贊成OK 好非常好喔過去啊 這段時間啊你的反應啊可能下面有些人會覺得很有趣但我覺得蠻嚴肅的為什麼蠻嚴肅的因為連川普總統啊自己的支持者一個大企業家他也說他看不懂"},{"start":15183.22,"end":15207.972,"text":"他完全看不懂這個公式代表的是什麼這也是為什麼我們行政院第一時間會說這個公式不合理嘛要不然我們的行政院院長怎麼會出來說這個公式不合理怎麼會課台灣這麼高的關稅那這個對我國接下來跟美國之間的談判非常的重要啊因為如果美國貿易代表署把這個公式寫在他們的官方文件上面就是我們所看到的這個嘛"},{"start":15209.281,"end":15232.443,"text":"就我們所看到的這一個 它已經寫在官方文件上啦所以它重要的兩個係數 一個是Epsilon 一個是Phi就是在那個數學的公式上 但是剛剛部長你也說了嘛這個公式你不是很熟 那沒有關係 我就不要跟部長進一步討論啦接下來在美國經濟學界對這個公式討論 大家所舉出來的問題"},{"start":15233.824,"end":15262.23,"text":"時間的關係我最後只問一件事情剛剛有委員提到台灣遭受到美國關切的是不是有台灣的廠商在幫忙洗產地部長這個部分你有掌握嗎我們有掌握你們有掌握你們也不允許這些廠商來台灣洗廠地絕對不允許嗎不允許OK好 那個時間的關係我最後只提醒一件事情那個國發會的主委您坐在下面嗎"},{"start":15266.454,"end":15295.288,"text":"是不是可以請主委齁是不是可以請主委其他的不肖廠商做這種事情我們沒辦法容忍嘛但我們國發基金所投資的公司絕對不應該做這種事情主委贊不贊成呃我贊成你贊成嘛好主委我們會來清查清查清查喔國發基金投資的公司有沒有在幫中國的廠商洗產地國發基金清查需要多久"},{"start":15297.334,"end":15314.261,"text":"國發基金我們會發文出去然後看廠商的一個禮拜之內請他們回覆好不好可以請所有國發基金投資的公司切解喔有沒有在幫中國產品洗產地請他們一個禮拜之後回覆把答案提供給所有委員好不好好的好謝謝謝謝我們現在請牛許廷委員做詢問"},{"start":15325.286,"end":15350.17,"text":"謝謝主席 郭部長有請郭部長委員好 部長午安這個大家都關心這個美國關稅大刀一下來造成的一個衝擊剛剛那個奇奇怪怪的公式講白那就是美國用他的貿易逆差去算嘛對不對 其實部長心裡清楚啦也不用踩著明白裝糊塗但我今天要問的是"},{"start":15350.69,"end":15374.13,"text":"今天大家都問範論也就是說比如說881夠不夠以及等等但是我想大部分的中小企業也好甚至再往下到各個勞工也好最焦慮最擔心的還是跟自己的關係是什麼所以今天我們花一點點時間我們就挑一個產業來跟部長做深入的討論我想先請問部長現在我們的賴總統講說我們要以零關稅為基礎重新去談判這個零關稅有沒有包含汽車產業"},{"start":15375.896,"end":15396.247,"text":"我想所有的關稅總統既然宣布是由零關稅開始談起這通通包含嘛這通通包含所以包含對不對通通包含好現在我想部長你也很清楚啦現在普遍台灣的消費者我們從消費者的角度來講其實對於汽車關稅他們也是反對的嘛他們也覺得說保護國內產業幾十年好像也弄不出像樣的東西以及等等"},{"start":15396.667,"end":15424.682,"text":"不如讓大家有機會買便宜的進口車這樣的聲音其實你做個民調其實就知道搞不好是壓倒性的多數這是從消費者的立場來看但我請問部長那為什麼過去我們要維持對汽車產業的保護課相對比較高的關稅報告委員齁我們國內還是有國內的這個汽車產業啦那大概就業的人口有十幾萬就是一個很急速的降稅那他們可能就馬上沒有工作"},{"start":15425.302,"end":15441.622,"text":"沒錯嘛我想過去在這個關稅上面其實基於保護這些從業的人所以其實你是照顧國內產業跟國內就業甚至保護國內勞工的角度來做這樣的規範對不對所以跟什麼哪個品牌怎麼樣其實沒有什麼直接的關係對不對好那我今天就問這個問題"},{"start":15443.184,"end":15458.598,"text":"現在剛剛已經講因為賴總統的宣示基本上是所有的產業都包含在內剛剛黃國昌委員等等其實也都有提到如果你一旦降了汽車關稅其他可能要求你准用WTO的最惠國待遇也就是說他當然就一去就不回頭了那我想請問針對汽車產業的調節跟衝擊的影響評估這個"},{"start":15462.782,"end":15478.896,"text":"包含汽車不是只有大家都講裕隆、納智捷嘛然後都說他們很爛對不對所以我們今天不做評論但是也不只啦還有中華汽車有國瑞等等他其實都是國產車的代表好或不好今天不在這裡做論斷但是這樣子的叫做汽車的整車製造就本席的了解啦這樣子的這個產業的從業人數5.2萬人"},{"start":15481.972,"end":15493.047,"text":"還不只是有整車製造那請問部長或者是你後面下面的這些幕僚知不知道零組件的產業大概有幾家從業的人數有多少"},{"start":15494.7,"end":15510.926,"text":"零組件的廠商其實跟委員報告這個就是你如果是primary market可能我們有的廠商受的傷害不會很大但是我們有一個after market的廠商其實蠻強的"},{"start":15512.605,"end":15541.372,"text":"就有些他競爭力強有些競爭力但總體來講因為我們今天如果要討論880億處理全台灣的產業那一定是不清楚的嘛但有幾個有兩千多億的這個產值產值兩千多億至少有一點數據做基礎因為現在大家討論如果關稅降下來汽車產業會被衝擊農業會被衝擊今天應該針對這些特別被點名的產業的產業鏈的衝擊影響評估要有更詳細的報告這是我今天希望看到的我們是有報告齁如果這個需要的話我們今天下午就可以送給今天下午OK"},{"start":15541.852,"end":15547.44,"text":"就本席目前的了解啦目前的了解全台灣的這樣子的國內的汽車產業鏈喔這個整車製造我剛剛講過了從業人數5.2萬人佔整體汽車產業就業人口17.3%零組件供應有超過2000家的各式各樣零組件的廠商"},{"start":15557.895,"end":15575.207,"text":"它當然有些強勢有些弱勢但他們的共同身份是什麼中小企業嘛你今天討論我們難道不需要針對特定的業別做更多的調查嗎這樣子的一些從業者你剛剛講產值2000億從業的人數就本身現有的資料啦你官方有更精準的資料沒有關係從業人數24.8萬人佔整體汽車產業直接佔就業人口82.7%"},{"start":15580.251,"end":15605.825,"text":"加起來整車製造跟零組件上下游加起來大概總共有30萬的就業人口可能會因為汽車關稅的鬆綁受到一定的衝擊我現在請問經濟部詳細的數據比如說這2000多家或包含整車製造他們會調多少單有沒有哪些產業被衝擊到會直接有裁員或者是無薪假的狀況你們現在有沒有掌握報告委員我想我們現在就是說有做一些這個情境的分析"},{"start":15606.994,"end":15613.237,"text":"那台灣也不會因為說這個零關稅以後進口車大家都來買進口車然後這個國內車我想我們會幫助國內這些廠商來做轉型"},{"start":15619.949,"end":15641.955,"text":"即使今天因為時間有限啊但因為沒關係後面還有專案報告我們都還有總諮詢但我希望經濟部做好準備啦特別針對幾個已經被擺上檯面的產業你總要有詳細的數據嘛我們才會知道說這881要怎麼下它是單純的補貼還是怎麼樣因為你881只是講大方向沒有意思嘛我本席最關心的不外乎就是掉多少單有沒有人會失業啊"},{"start":15642.535,"end":15663.189,"text":"我們有多少人因為這樣失去工作或是要放無薪假請問你政府的錢有沒有到這些人的口袋裡去減輕衝擊嘛你如果對各產業鏈的分析不夠了解的時候你當然就我們就無從知道這881下的有沒有價值或者是需不需要增加所以我至少我們今天很有意義因為部長講這個今天下午我們就會拿到汽車產業鏈的相關的衝擊分析報告對不對我再確認一次"},{"start":15664.246,"end":15675.579,"text":"好不好 那就麻煩經濟部提供資料不只是汽車啦 我也提醒其他相關的 電子零組件 農產品等等都要有分門別類的報告而且盡量要讓立法委員來參考要公開透明好不好"},{"start":15678.864,"end":15701.77,"text":"農業部獨立啦沒關係但你經濟部所有的我會送給你農業部也應該要有啦但沒關係今天這個就不為難你就是今天的這個我們有做了一份報告你就把相關的報告就送交而且這位知道其實在你禮拜五的這個說明的時候他其實越詳細越好這樣大家在未來在審查這個預算要不要放行的時候你也會有更多的說明的依據可以嗎謝謝委員好謝謝部長好謝謝我們現在請林倩祺委做詢答"},{"start":15718.367,"end":15724.071,"text":"谢谢张伟主席福音同仁大家好我现在请一下我们的郭部长郭部长"},{"start":15729.102,"end":15746.268,"text":"部長好 辛苦了今天中午就如同您剛才講的12點開始美國的這個32%的關稅已經生效了當然在他公布的時候我們就知道對台灣的整個造成很大的衝擊那尤其是我們以這個出國"},{"start":15747.708,"end":15768.659,"text":"出口為主的導向的一個產業那直接對我們的實質打擊是非常大的那剛才幾位議員這邊也提到了一個相關的訊息我這邊就不多贅述那今天呢實踐的關係我想針對我們整個實質打擊然後所產生的衝擊兩個大象來跟您做一個探討那第一個部分是"},{"start":15771.358,"end":15788.358,"text":"長期我們對於衝擊跟產業的一個處理常常都以升級轉型的政策來做因應那在這一波的衝擊下那這樣一個方式我們能夠怎麼樣實質的產生一些效果"},{"start":15789.099,"end":15810.591,"text":"那第二個部分的是我們的產業結構其實很早就受到高地價高人力成本跟環保高環保要求的這個壓力的這個多重擠壓我們的產業線已經也有一些外移但是在現階段美國這樣子高關稅的衝擊其實在這個部分又寫上加雙所以今天最主要這兩個"},{"start":15811.852,"end":15831.782,"text":"重點那剛才因為也有委員談到你們應該相關的在你的轄下可以掌控而且比較了解的相關產業你應該也做了一些衝擊的分析那我也提醒一下這個會後也請提供給本席所以剛才本席所談的這兩個部分那汽車產業其實我們不僅有這個整個產業鏈的一個狀況衝擊的這個狀況那"},{"start":15840.826,"end":15855.114,"text":"當然當然有一些委員提到那是不是很多人就認為可以買到比較便宜的美國汽車那這是一種想法但是我這邊跟您做一下交流也就是說我們整個"},{"start":15856.294,"end":15881.321,"text":"是不是有機會來設置汽車供應鏈的這個重整基金然後協助轉向內需跟新興市場然後解決剛才其實大家都知道的整個汽車產業鏈的問題我不知道您對這個看法上是謝謝委員指導我想在這個汽車的部分確實台灣因為這個市場很小台灣大概一年只能有這個"},{"start":15883.061,"end":15890.711,"text":"二十幾萬台的這個需求那我們現在大概就在收集這個資訊短期裡面我們現在這個舊的車超過20年以上的車聽說有100多萬輛"},{"start":15902.81,"end":15919.443,"text":"那我們希望就是以新換舊以新換舊然後來把這個市場讓出來不打擊我們國內的這個原有的這個製造製造T我們台灣有很多的我們有六大廠商在台灣製造大概二十幾萬台"},{"start":15920.263,"end":15948,"text":"那我想这个以新代旧的这个部分推出来我们可能就是把货物税拿掉然后让它具有竞争力然后来换旧那第二个呢就是说美国会进来的车美国会进来的车不是只有美国品牌的车不是只有福特Cadillac它可能会进来现在包括连韩国的车都到美国去设厂那么日本的车也在美国设厂他们都会进来"},{"start":15948.96,"end":15956.25,"text":"所以在台灣的我們要解決這20幾萬的從業人員我們當然有很多的方法台灣的電子零組件非常強"},{"start":15957.446,"end":15982.282,"text":"所以我們都在幫助這些廠商希望他回到他的 譬如說日本然後我們跟日本的主廠跟他談說欸 台灣可不可以幫你做這個電動車但是這樣看起來其實有很多細節這邊要做相關的談判跟處理嘛對 但是美國的這個談判我們能夠談多久然後能夠是不是就只談到零我們是從零開始談"},{"start":15983.343,"end":16001.114,"text":"所以我們這個會議談到一個美國可以接受的然後這個裡面也牽扯到時間是不是馬上立馬就是0或者是立馬跟美國一樣2.5這個不一定我們這是談判的手法但是我們的目標跟委員報告我們的目標就是幫助國內的產業"},{"start":16007.506,"end":16023.017,"text":"不能夠萎縮不能夠讓國內產業部長我這邊剛才其實也提到在過去的方法上都是所謂的財政補助或單點的技術升級但是這對整個系統性的風險您覺得有幫助嗎我們現在重新盤點提出能夠因應現況的對策大概跟過去不會一樣"},{"start":16032.683,"end":16050.699,"text":"所以本席希望這個部分能夠更積極的作為啦那另外當然其實有很多細節的這個問題沒有辦法在這邊細談但是對於目前傳產面對高地價高人力高環保壓力那這個部分你怎麼看這個結構性的挑戰那我這邊有個例子啦就是你們在過去的這個輔導上"},{"start":16052.04,"end":16073.619,"text":"今年114年你們整合資源的升級轉型也就是你們過去都對單點但是整合性的做起來好像稍微不是力道不是那麼強所以你們在整個升級轉型總共才41筆而且是專注在個別企業導入相關的數位工具還有升級設備但是整個產業整體的這個規劃"},{"start":16076.021,"end":16088.855,"text":"好像沒有很明確那怎麼樣因應外來的這樣這麼大的關稅的衝擊呢那這個部分你們有沒有一些想法能夠跳脫過去這個效能不彰的這樣子的輔導跟單點的補助呢"},{"start":16091.909,"end":16117.219,"text":"專家企業署的部分我是不請署長跟你回報可能很快的回報 時間有限大概零三十秒針對我剛才講的那個部分你們現在欠缺系統性的處理而且很多時候都是這個數位升級也就是你們補助跟輔導的東西不痛不癢所以你沒有系統性的一個處理因應外來的 我們現在所碰到的衝擊我不認為你們的效度能夠去因應 您的看法"},{"start":16117.759,"end":16136.274,"text":"是 包委員這一點我們每年都在加強改進特別針對產業所面臨的不同的樣態的問題我們會針對這個問題也就是廠商所需要解決的到底是在智慧的生產或是它數位能力的提升或是它要怎麼樣進一步節能減碳這就是我說的問題就是廠商會提出單點的問題然後你們針對他們單點的問題可是就國家而言我們是有力道可以去處理一個系統性跟整個產業的別"},{"start":16145.842,"end":16165.491,"text":"那你們可能在這個數據上有沒有掌握然後再來在過去的這樣一個支持上或投入輔導上或因應企業的需求有沒有做更有效能的一個規劃這個是我需要知道的一個答案把每一個處理的方式變成一個模組變成一個具體的一個個案然後把這個個案把它盡量朝向"},{"start":16166.411,"end":16195.538,"text":"推廣 推廣的方式 讓更多的中小企業推廣在產業的部分 你是要有一些效能跟結果所以要想他們能夠產生具體的中小然後更多的中小企業所以說是不是 針對這個部分你如果有比較具體的報告會後給本席做一個提供好不好那你應該聽得懂本席所擔憂的跟所提出的建議是的我這邊假設是這樣嘛好 那就先這樣子 好不好謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答"},{"start":16220.884,"end":16222.545,"text":"麻烦请部长过部长"},{"start":16230.066,"end":16236.793,"text":"委員好 部長好部長我剛剛看到幾位委員都非常重視這個因應關稅的這個方案"},{"start":16239.756,"end":16263.732,"text":"同樣的我也想要請教我們現在這個880億的這個支持方案裡面我們就工業的六大面向700億來討論700億的討論來我想先請教一下是不是4月5號出船之前是用原稅率然後5月27號前然後抵美報關的話就是用之前的這個稅率我們大概有三種情境"},{"start":16265.066,"end":16289.121,"text":"那這個主要的這個情境是這樣就是4月5號以前從台灣出貨的on board那麼按照原稅率如果4月5號到4月9號也就是4月中午以後然後到4月9號中午大概加10%的這個稅率那如果說今天剛剛12點過現在一個小時前現在出貨的話要32%"},{"start":16294.107,"end":16318.159,"text":"我們為什麼要重視這些數字因為現在它的影響是即時的所以我們需要即時有效的政策去對應那我看這700億的部分提升產業競爭力的這個研發轉型它是由高達200億那另外一部分是爭取海外訂單包含紙項目有補助海外新設展示中心大概有100多億"},{"start":16319.946,"end":16324.593,"text":"我就這些部分想要請教部長這些是長期的還是短期的應對方案"},{"start":16326.902,"end":16349.858,"text":"這個海外的部分也有短期也有長期因為我想我們現在必須要替受到衝擊的這些廠商找到新的訂單對部長我同意但是我要強調的是我們現在要面臨的是即時的有效的應對所以我看到這個工業的六大面向是四項措施裡面我看到的金融支持"},{"start":16350.518,"end":16371.213,"text":"金融支持包含這個融資利率的減碼還有輸出保費的優惠中小微型企業的貸款加碼這個是應該要提高的要降低行政成本的當然也是要提高的但是提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場我們現在講的是這個月今年我們馬上面到了這個關稅的變局是數十年來從來沒有這樣的大變局我想請教一下部長"},{"start":16372.332,"end":16393.559,"text":"你會不會認為說這一些700億的預算它的優先次序是不是要做一些調整我特別還要提到你們的安定就業這個部分因為它排在最後一項第六項但是其實它的影響是最最最最重大的所以想請部長回應一下報導委員我們第一個第一個優先的動作就是紓困"},{"start":16395.205,"end":16419.983,"text":"疏解這些中小微企業他面臨到的財務上面的危機包括他被欠單包括他被post fund這些訂單包括他可能因為這樣子這個業者希望他能夠到5月以後再去出貨明確的台灣的這個稅率這個稅率確定了以後才會讓他出貨我想這些都是"},{"start":16421.084,"end":16443.016,"text":"造成產業上面在財務的調度上面可能會出了一點問題那我們第一個就是紓困特別是小跟微的企業那大型的企業經過我們盤過的幾個大型的企業包括電子相關的這些產業他們可能做的是EMS可能做的是OEM對他們來講我們都確認過"},{"start":16445.037,"end":16463.655,"text":"他们的影响不大所以我们现在这个800亿的部分700亿的部分是完全针对这个中小微企业那第一个先以纾困为主各种方法那所以我们呢希望能够在这个所有的方法里面能够重塑重减"},{"start":16465.421,"end":16485.88,"text":"來幫助他們好部長這很重要因為我看到上面的這些資源的配置來看的話提升競爭力研發轉型這種比較偏向這種國發會的長期的機會是200億喔所以說我們在有限的資源下面怎麼樣的調度剛才部長說紓困優先同時經濟部也是作為整個這一個方案的主導的部門"},{"start":16486.48,"end":16514.34,"text":"所以我是希望說調整一下看怎麼樣可以針對你剛剛講到的中小型企業最直接的幫助你剛剛提到的紓困方案它的資源配置不應該是最少反而是應該是最多的但是我們剛剛看到700億光是有300億就是在長期的促進產業的發展我覺得這個要做一些調整是 報告委員當我們在這個一般來講我們看的是這個廠商它其實是非常順利在運作"},{"start":16515.501,"end":16543.197,"text":"那基本上我們會讓他調適一些訂單因為畢竟美國不是占他全部大概只有20幾個百分比好那就是你剛剛提到的開拓市場的部分那想再請教一下開拓市場的部分我們現在能夠某方面美國是不可能被取代的某方面能夠替代的這個市場還是以歐洲國家為主是不是我們大概有三個方向就是說第一個是歐洲的市場大概這些部分都是工具區跟這個構建的部分"},{"start":16543.857,"end":16562.656,"text":"歐洲市場再來就是印度再來就是這個土耳其好這三個市場裡面特別是歐洲市場它的消費能力是比較接近美國的更加要放重心在上面那最後這一個部分我是請經濟部要回去研擬一下因為這一次的關稅它是針對"},{"start":16563.877,"end":16590.931,"text":"不是只有非盟友他是針對盟友是美國的盟友也包含在內所以包含日韓台灣歐盟全部都在他的這個裡面都被課徵高關稅所以未來會不會影響飛鴻的這個供應鏈這個要怎麼樣應對我希望這是我不知道經濟部門有沒有先想好那我也認為說張偉未來也可以派類似這樣子的會議我現在講的飛鴻供應鏈已經受到威脅了"},{"start":16591.411,"end":16616.211,"text":"所以这个部分是我们主要的命题所以在这个变数进来这个关税的变数进来以后当然我们会调整好 谢谢谢谢委员好 谢谢我们现在请黄建斌委员做询答好 谢谢主席最后我们有请我们郭部长郭部长"},{"start":16623.607,"end":16650.26,"text":"委員好部長好部長這是第一次本席跟部長見面那部長您身為我國能源政策的主管機關的首長那本席有注意到您上任以來對於再生能源政策的一些說法在去年9月的時候您上任不久就剛才說過風電國產化的限制8年已經差不多了會朝著開放的方向來努力那希望國內外的廠商都能夠雙贏"},{"start":16651.32,"end":16669.498,"text":"那後來你又拋出說要在菲律賓蓋電廠的計畫把綠電送回台灣也造成非常多的討論那我們經濟部在三個月經濟委員會的專案報告裡面也有提出說可行性評估的報告認為菲律賓中間是可行的並特別的提到當地的陸域風電評估有龐大的開發潛力"},{"start":16672.837,"end":16699.491,"text":"另外部長在備詢的時候也有說經濟部正在啟動新的計畫像我們澎湖地區可能會設置太陽能光電或者是陸域的風電要送回台灣這些相關的計畫都還在報行政許可當中所以看起來部長您對於我國發展風電尤其是陸域風電這一塊你的態度是很支持的那前部長除了澎湖以外我們經濟部目前還有打算在其他區推動相關這個陸域風電的計畫嗎"},{"start":16702.204,"end":16702.686,"text":"我想這個臺灣因為這個"},{"start":16706.226,"end":16729.823,"text":"地狹人稠所以這個陸域風電能夠設置的地方其實並不多但是我們認為這個陸域風電是一個可以使用的部分所以我們現在除了澎湖繼續來在無人島上面建立這個陸域風電以外當然我們在探討台灣還有什麼其他地區可以來設置陸域風電不過"},{"start":16731.784,"end":16759.427,"text":"我們接著會去考慮我們在海外地區 臨接台灣的地方有沒有設置陸域風電的場域如果有設置陸域風電的場域因為它的陸域風電成本是相對的非常的低所以我們如果可以把這些產生的電力送回來我相信會讓我們現在面臨到的窘境因為我們必須要有再生能源"},{"start":16760.007,"end":16771.438,"text":"來support我們的這個綠能所以這個部分我想是我們在努力的一個方向所以部長對陸域風電這塊其實蠻有信心你很支持嘛對不對信不信 部長也很支持這一塊吧"},{"start":16773.683,"end":16793.724,"text":"我們都是依規定在進行這個所有的這個拓展OK好 部長謝謝部長部長其實本期監修基金委員會最主要的原因就是跟你強烈表達台東人的心聲喔不知道部長你有沒有注意到有一個風力發電的業者最近要在想要在台東縣整個海岸縣從北到南176公里從長濱鄉成功鎮"},{"start":16796.567,"end":16811.84,"text":"泰瑪里鄉 大武鄉到達人鄉要設置將近60座的大型風力發電機那這個計畫已經在我們環境部的這個網站公告了那這個網站這個消息一公告之後引起台東鄉親強烈的反彈"},{"start":16813.081,"end":16831.155,"text":"那先不跟我在第一時間內也表達反對我想台東的海景是全國國人都知道的無敵海景最美麗的海岸線那你一旦插滿了這大型的風車那我們引以為傲的美景可能就完全破壞那更重要的可能會衝擊當地的生態"},{"start":16832.296,"end":16850.872,"text":"那也影響到這些區域都是我們原住民的傳統理念也影響到我們原住民的一些文化那我們甚至看到業者的規劃案裡面有些風力發電機的位置它竟然在學校附近學校這個低頻的噪音跟輻射波會影響到我們這些偏鄉的小孩還有當地的居民"},{"start":16851.753,"end":16880.496,"text":"那除了本席跟台東縣政府已經明確的表達我們的反對的意思之外那不經沒有經過同意就是不同意未經過我們共識的封建開發案破壞台東的環境這個我們都有表達強的意思而且有許多鄉鎮長民大家都反對而且還有鄉親發起的自救會那代表當地的居民非常明確表達就是沒有經過同意的共識這些封建會毀了我們台東那本席在下午也"},{"start":16881.437,"end":16905.363,"text":"公開的號召連署不到24小時我們這個連署名單已經到1000人以台東人口結構來說這個時間非常的快速就達到連署數目原本我今天本期堅保的帳板要回到台東參加台東縣議會有一場召開跟鄉鎮展跟民意代表跟自救會在的一場說明會不過我們飛機在天空繞了兩圈之後回到松山趕快跑過來跟部長也來表達這個儀式"},{"start":16907.003,"end":16934.172,"text":"那我想對風電業者打算在我們台東海岸線發展路易工電環境部昨天已經發表聲明他特別強調風電開發的許可是由經濟部核發的那根據環評的流程開發單位必須先在環境部的評論論壇公開發表訊息收集意見完成環評書之後送交經濟部那這要經濟部正式轉送環境部進行實質的審查"},{"start":16936.092,"end":16964.176,"text":"簡單的來說就是環境部的意思就是說這個案子的出審機關在經濟部所以在這裡我還想要具體的請教部長你是否支持風電在台東海岸線來開發是不是有聽見台東鄉親的聲音願意阻止這個沒有經過共識的風電開發案報告委員我們如果接受的條件是地方政府要同意如果台東縣政府不同意我們也不可能同意"},{"start":16965.339,"end":16987.184,"text":"包括我們民眾的聲音部長這邊都能夠所以台東縣政府是我們第一關這個會不會同意的一個最基礎的評論所以這部長的意思台東縣政府已經表達沒有經過共識的開發他是反對所以這個部分經濟部這邊就會停掉我當然是會接受嘛中央跟地方是合作的謝謝部長的回應所以這次真的"},{"start":16989.885,"end":17015.882,"text":"我這樣在空中飛兩圈回來台北絕對值得得到部長這樣的答案那最後是還是要跟部長強烈來表達我們身為能源政策的主管機關經濟部能源我們在發展再生能源的同時也要兼顧我們當地居民的感受最重要是我們避免破壞環境的破壞因為這個錯誤的政策如果沒有經過選址同意這樣子貿然的做決定是斷送整個美麗台東海岸線的這個未來的"},{"start":17017.643,"end":17041.828,"text":"整個發展喔那我想未來如果有類似的案子本席一定要站在第一線嚴格的監督我們中央機關那這邊也要我要跟部長強烈表達我們會守護台東鄉親的這個權益照顧我們台東居保持台東這塊美麗的土地也希望部長跟我們一起來加油那以上謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在請徐副科委員做詢答"},{"start":17052.992,"end":17055.979,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們郭部長郭部長"},{"start":17064.813,"end":17087.482,"text":"委員好部長辛苦我想部長也是來自屏東也長期關心屏東的一個產業發展部長我想針對這一次美國關稅的部分那當然對於這個鋼鐵電子跟工具機的部分造成一個出口導向產業的直接衝擊那這不是不僅是一個國際貿易的一個議題更是產業鏈穩定跟國際信任危機一個壓力測試部長同意這個論調嗎"},{"start":17094.685,"end":17122.655,"text":"是部長那我想針對屏東縣的一個產業發展我們過去在農業生技漁機製造還有零組件的加工還有鋼鐵的一個零配件的供應鏈部分我想我們也扮演一定的重要的一個角色那面對這樣一個全球供應鏈一個變局那部長身為屏東人未來怎麼樣去協助這個用這個881的部分怎麼樣來協助屏東縣的中小企業來渡過難關"},{"start":17124.155,"end":17145.268,"text":"報告委員,我想我們這一個紓困的這個方案,這881大概都是針對中小微企業給他們紓困使用那至於說將來的要做轉型啊,或者是訂單移轉啊,在各方面如果說這些紓困費用是不夠的我們當然會另外再編列,包括紓困費用會加碼"},{"start":17146.869,"end":17170.06,"text":"所以這個變數是在於說我們現在的談判單位在談32%的稅率可以降到多少這個是他們在談的所以我們現在的881是第一個階段因為我們不知道可以談到多少所以我們先編881如果談下來的稅率有各種不同的連動"},{"start":17172.481,"end":17186.038,"text":"那如果不夠 880億是不夠來疏解我們的中小企業我們的小微企業他們的轉型或者是提升他們的轉移訂單的這個市場那麼我們會繼續再加碼那長遠來講的話我對平衡鄉親來講的話有上限嗎"},{"start":17192.595,"end":17195.057,"text":"應該是不會有上限因為對國內企業的安定跟國內企業的穩定是最重要的部分總統也有指示應該是擴大在台灣業者的"},{"start":17212.25,"end":17221.507,"text":"強化它的競爭力所以這個部分只要是我們國內的產業我們都會全心全力的來幫助它提升它的競爭力"},{"start":17223.103,"end":17248.893,"text":"部長那就一個國際這個我想你本身是來自於業界就這個我們企業這個發展的過程裡面部長認為這個出口導向的這個發展性有沒有什麼樣需要調整的一個方向跟委員報告這個我想從過去的全球製造化自由化的這個貿易行為大概在最近因為這個地緣政治的關係或者是極端氣候的影響"},{"start":17250.373,"end":17274.16,"text":"所以现在大概比较转向这个区域经济学的这个时代那这个我们对这个整个台湾在做出国贸易的时候我们必须要更精准的找到我们可以发展的这个区域所以美国当然是我们一个很重要的因为我们的基础是互补的美国也是做这个研发研究"},{"start":17275.2,"end":17288.438,"text":"但是它的發電做得不算很厲害那個行善也不算很厲害這個部分傳來台灣台灣做這個研究跟行善發電我們是在那邊研究可能不太講但是我們對於這個發電"},{"start":17290.541,"end":17315.197,"text":"跟製造這是我們台灣的優勢所以我們國家必須要針對我們自己的優勢發展所有的行善的供應鏈包括產品的供應鏈所以這個是我們一個非常重要的命題我們的傳產將來也是面向一些比較剛性需求的產品我們來協助它能夠移轉對他們來講其實不是太困難"},{"start":17316.118,"end":17336.679,"text":"所以經濟部來講的話經濟部在未來因為面對到這個問題所以我們一定要移轉那個市場移轉產品所以我們會讓他第一個從事既有的產品因為那個非紅供應鏈下來的ICT的產品跟下來的一個軍工產品這個市場非常的大這個是我們馬上可以catch up"},{"start":17337.403,"end":17352.67,"text":"另外一個就是對一個新的產品然後這個是我們可以主導的未來一定所有的製造業只有兩個變數第一個利用機器人替我們生產第二個利用生成式的AI來"},{"start":17355.132,"end":17371.105,"text":"訓練這個機器人幫我們做工作所以我們的國人只要會訓練這個深層式AI你有這樣的一個技能大概啊在台灣在這個智慧製造的這個領域裡面大概就是全球第一啦好部長我想這個我們"},{"start":17372.226,"end":17395.376,"text":"這個企業界除了關心這個關稅之外還有很重要的問題就是我們電力的供應穩定度尤其我們現在核三廠5月17號2號就要除役那我想不分朝野大家都很關心我們這個電力的一個調度那包含我想我們在這個多元的能源的一個發電部分包含再生能源火力發電這部分部長我們這個"},{"start":17397.655,"end":17411.67,"text":"在野黨一直攻擊這個能源的一個缺口的問題到底這個部分我們目前掌握的狀況是怎麼樣報告委員我想對這個核能這種新的科技基本上我們是不反對討論的"},{"start":17413.625,"end":17439.461,"text":"只要符合三個要件第一個安全第二個大家有共識第三個核廢料可以處理我相信新科技的這些能源我們都是在我們討論之中只要它能夠符合這個要件我想核三廠它如果再符合這個要件至於未來的發展是怎麼樣的這個交由全民共識來決定那核三廠除疫之後"},{"start":17440.061,"end":17454.501,"text":"那後續這個最終處置廠的部分我們目前有進度嗎核廢料的處理我們現在都在進行中包括因為我們現在有核一核二嘛那現在都在進行核三廠當然我們會有這些基本假設那我們希望能夠處理"},{"start":17456.22,"end":17480.146,"text":"好那我想這個也是我們恆春半島這個居民很關心的一個問題啦那後續整個河山除役之後整個在這個整個地方的環境議題上面還有這個我們所謂的一個相關的回饋機制上面我想經濟部還有台電公司應該拿出更正面的態度我想這個要後續還是本市還是會持續來追蹤啊柏林你做變動人這也要繼續來給我們努力一下啦謝謝委員鼓勵好謝謝"},{"start":17485.657,"end":17497.902,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請徐宇珍委員做詢答徐宇珍委員 徐宇珍委員不在我們現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在現在請葉元之委員做詢答麻煩請那個經濟部長郭部長"},{"start":17521.451,"end":17535.599,"text":"委員好部長好請問一下我們現在經濟部或行政院有沒有盤點出目前因為川普關稅政策導致受影響的產值全國的產值跟勞工的人數目前有盤點出這個數字出來嗎"},{"start":17537.233,"end":17553.305,"text":"報告委員我們現在因為今天12點以後才是開始適用32%的稅率那我們現在不斷的在update這些data因為這個事情其實也不是一個突發事件"},{"start":17554.306,"end":17570.787,"text":"就從去年11月我們之前在經濟委員會也都問過類似話題那時候經濟部的回應都是說都有在盤點了啦都開過座談會了啦都是說有做了很多事情那目前你掌握可能受到影響的產值跟高空我可以跟委員報告大概影響是9千億啦12萬人"},{"start":17572.108,"end":17591.038,"text":"影響九千億跟十二萬人那因為現在週五以後這個關稅就要實施了嘛那現在目前之前很多廠商說他們的貨櫃都已經在路上了啦還有一些廠商在想說那接下來是不是要繼續生產所以其實政府明確的政策對他們來說非常重要那目前"},{"start":17591.798,"end":17613.048,"text":"委員剛才在講的這個說在路上的部分其實他5月27號以前進到美國他的稅率跟過去是一樣的那因為我們現在行政院所提出來是880億的一個補助的方案那這個方案大概會持續多久那因為主要就是說我覺得很多廠商想要知道"},{"start":17614.048,"end":17630.189,"text":"想要知道說第一個他們可以得到相關的比如說補助啊或者優惠嘛那政府會利用這個期間會均跟美國談判嘛那預計來說大概期限是到什麼時候要讓廠商做一點準備啦因為像比如說我是來自於新北市我們新北市兩萬家工廠"},{"start":17630.99,"end":17650.051,"text":"大概佔了全國的五分之一啦那新北市政府他也有盤點出相關的產業出來嘛比如說在新北市金屬跟製品就佔了25%機械12%所以其實對新北市的廠商來說影響很大我覺得現在政府的政策越明確對他們來說他們的規劃"},{"start":17652.133,"end":17668.485,"text":"可以更精準就不會在這過程當中不知道怎麼辦所以部長可不可以很明確的來做一個說明謝謝委員我想我們輸出到美國的或造成影響的產業其實是只有侷限於在一些比較小的部分"},{"start":17669.426,"end":17694.301,"text":"那我們輸出美國就是一個小的部分是什麼意思?出差的比較有優勢的產品,譬如說伺服器,譬如說半導體這個是美國需要的產品,它沒有替代性的那這個部分他不擔心32%的稅對他有什麼影響怎麼會不擔心,因為他們是做有的譬如說你剛剛講的部分嘛,我的了解是有一些很多是做代工的嘛"},{"start":17695.454,"end":17713.248,"text":"那代工的話現在衍生出一個問題就是因為代工就品牌商委託他們代工嘛那32%應該是品牌商吸收還是代工廠吸收品牌商可是實際上我的了解啦很多廠商其實很擔心啦沒有那回事品牌商會壓縮代工廠的議論我們都盤點過啦盤點每一個伺服器做代工的廠商我們都一一盤點對他們來講他們當然原廠在討論啦"},{"start":17725.338,"end":17733.843,"text":"我聽到就是說有的原廠就會去跟代工廠去談嘛現在就加了32%的成本啊代工廠的利潤只有10%代工廠的利潤只有10%"},{"start":17754.797,"end":17765.348,"text":"這些廠商現在要做什麼然後政府的比如補助公開透明的步驟或期限很明確告訴大家都有我們的方法就是從這個從簡從速從寬這三個原則來給他們舒緩給他們補助"},{"start":17773.897,"end":17792.874,"text":"這是第一點第二點呢我們對這些廠商啊這個他原有的貸款我們也不會雨天收傘我們讓他延後最起碼這個六個月那我們現在推出的這些啊措施大概啊原則上是四年有效四年有效對那你那個80還81是怎麼預估出來的"},{"start":17795.057,"end":17804.055,"text":"880億是根據過去我們在第一個時間裡面所推論的可能會影響說我們現在的談判不是去談32%接受"},{"start":17805.962,"end":17825.419,"text":"是談說30%以下美國會對我們課多少實際課多少所以那個X是我們用那個X來假設說如果在那個階段我們假設我可以談到10%的話大概這個881是夠的如果高於10%那我當然就要再加碼反正你會盡量加碼到夠啦"},{"start":17834.073,"end":17853.305,"text":"對最後一個問題因為現在其實各縣市政府都有盤點出在各縣市裡面可能會影響到的中小企業而且中小企業都有一些回饋給縣市政府我不知道我們經營部有沒有去跟這些各縣市政府對接去了解一下他們的需求我們會跟各縣市的工業會市政府"},{"start":17856.047,"end":17885.359,"text":"跟縣市政府縣市政府的工業會有嗎 已經對接了嗎有對接已經對接了嗎那會召開一個比較擴大會做談會我們從過去的一直在做了所以經濟部本身有66個工業區我們都透過我們自己的這個單位跟在我們區外的單位整合來談我不是說之前啦我說因為他們這兩天也都很密集在跟中小企業在開會啦希望部長中央的角度也去了解一下各縣市政府的需求"},{"start":17885.919,"end":17889.606,"text":"我們都是中央合作啦中央與地方合作啦全力來度過這個難關好 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出席委員人數12人 一組法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1776.912,"end":1791.702,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第四次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年三月二十七日星期四九時至十四時九分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員成委員招資等十五人"},{"start":1792.142,"end":1809.207,"text":"列席委員林委員德福等17人列席官員衛生福利部政務次長呂健德等相關人員主席蘇造吉委員清泉報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部勞動部國家發展委員會教育部法務部針對"},{"start":1810.387,"end":1838.408,"text":"少子女化衝擊如何營造友善托育環境進行專題報告並被質詢本次會議由衛生福利部政務次長呂建德勞動部政務次長李建宏及國家發展委員會副主任委員詹芳冠報告後委員陳昭芝等22人提出質詢軍經衛生福利部政務次長勞動部政務次長國家發展委員會人力發展處處長謝家儀教育部國民及學前教育署副署長許立娟"},{"start":1838.948,"end":1839.228,"text":"沒事啦齁"},{"start":1868.159,"end":1889.623,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有那我們議事錄確定那我們今天的議程大家都很有興趣邀請勞動部部長對於勞動部首署基金違規使用如何追討及究責進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":1899.775,"end":1923.983,"text":"我們現在介紹在場的委員林業勤委員王振旭委員陳昭芝委員那我們介紹列席官員勞動部部長洪森翰歡迎歡迎"},{"start":1926.685,"end":1953.673,"text":"勞動力發展署代理署長 陳世昌好 歡迎勞保局局長 白立貞歡迎 歡迎勞動基金應用局局長 蘇玉清好 歡迎治安署署長 周子蓮好 謝謝中和規劃司司長 王厚誠好"},{"start":1956.536,"end":1961.338,"text":"勞動關係師師長王厚偉勞動保險師師長陳美女勞動福祉退休師師長謝倩勞動條件及就業平等師師長黃維琛"},{"start":1987.723,"end":2010.236,"text":"勞動法務司司長 傅惠芝秘書處處長 丁玉珍人事處處長 江碧玲政風處處長 周志信會計處處長 林美信我們審計部副審計長 林李順寶"},{"start":2018.79,"end":2023.154,"text":"行政院主計總署公務預算處副主計長陳慧娟那我剛剛有講我們今天先請我們的副主計長報告完再請副審計長報告完然後接著由洪部長來報告,詳細報告"},{"start":2041.536,"end":2045.059,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好今天應邀列席"},{"start":2065.762,"end":2089.305,"text":"第十一屆第三會期貴委員會第五次全體委員會議對於勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及救者提出報告以下請就該部所屬基金之運用及管理緊要說明如下依特種基金運作之管理機制首先收支保管部分依照預算法及"},{"start":2089.825,"end":2111.218,"text":"特種基金管理準則等規定收支保管及運用辦法必須展明設立的目的性質管理機關基金來源與用途預決算處理程序等所以各基金是按照它收支保管及運用辦法來運作再來就預算編制方面"},{"start":2113.259,"end":2132.127,"text":"行政院院班定有規範非營業特種基金應該設法籌妥長期穩定的裁員而且預算編列範圍應該跟公務預算明確劃分符合基金設立目的及基金用途者才可以在基金編列預算"},{"start":2133.527,"end":2155.685,"text":"那至於預算執行督導考核按照管理準則的規定主管機關對所管各特種基金之營運績效財務狀況應該切實督導考核並得訂定督導考核相關規定那各特種基金收支之執行成效可以由審計部等相關機關依法隨時實地調查"},{"start":2159.568,"end":2182.583,"text":"所以附属单位预算执行之督导考核已经有明确的规定再来就劳动部所属就业安定基金纪念财务状况说明就业安定基金主要基金的来源是就业安定费的收入依照就业服务法第55条的规定专款专用与办理促进"},{"start":2183.684,"end":2208.276,"text":"國民就業提升勞工福祉及處理有關外國人聘僱管理事務等相關事項那該基金110到112年度的短處是因為疫情辦理紓困措施至於113年度決算已經從短處轉為剩餘那推估到114年度基金餘額有459億餘元可以供"},{"start":2211.337,"end":2230.563,"text":"以後年度相關支出之裁員三 勞動部已經就審計部審核意見採取精進作為審計部114年3月21日函審核結果就業安定基金有部分經費支出跟基金用途"},{"start":2232.234,"end":2237.84,"text":"關零性不高因與收回所以修正該基金113年度決算72246254元勞動部規劃將爭取包括編列以後年度公務預算規定"},{"start":2249.672,"end":2265.351,"text":"規定就業安定基金等各種可行方式另外勞動部針對基金制度面及執行面已經採取精進作為包括修正就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法"},{"start":2266.512,"end":2292.97,"text":"訂定基金預算適用原則明確規範促進國民就業等用途範圍另外活動影片及文宣製作等會採專案簽辦採購方式來辦理另外也訂定了宣導品採購及正發管理原則明定不得採購跟業務推動無關或非必要之宣導品建立"},{"start":2293.971,"end":2319.033,"text":"管控機制等相關管理規範最後本案基金審計部審核通知勞動部查明處理收回勞動部擬爭取由公務預算支應部分本總處將視其後續相關預算程序辦理結果託處我們也將持續追蹤勞動部對就業安定基金"},{"start":2320.194,"end":2331.662,"text":"精進作為之辦理情形督導該基金預算編制及執行等事宜以上報告敬請各位委員、理事先生會議指教謝謝那接下來我們請副審計長李順寶報告"},{"start":2351.368,"end":2370.649,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早 審計部應邀列席貴園會來專題報告 深感榮幸那之江本部有關今天議程所列的就業安定基金整個相關經費的進行情形我們實際的審計的概況做一個扼要的報告"},{"start":2373.112,"end":2399.282,"text":"在113年11月間媒體有報告JNT基金有移召不當使用的情勢那本部會的釐清相關經費支出的意義及各項採購作業的執行情形依照大院在第十一屆第二會期財政委員會的第十次會議的全體委員會議跟大院第十一屆第二會期"},{"start":2400.342,"end":2423.012,"text":"第13次會議相關委員的質詢內容的主辦事項我們在去年的12月2日派員赴勞動部跟所屬的勞動力發展署來就地查核那查核發現跟審計處理的情形 二要報告如下首先第一個部分是有部分的支出項目跟"},{"start":2423.852,"end":2450.751,"text":"基金的設置目的跟用途關聯性不高那勞動部在跟所屬在103到113年度期間運用就業安定基金辦理勞動節主題影片製作跟宣導等案子那這幾個案子裡面相關經費的支出項目經過審核結果跟就業安定基金的設置目的跟基金的用途關聯性不高"},{"start":2452.093,"end":2468.982,"text":"那中間的相關金額經雷總之後大概大概是在七千兩百二十四萬餘元那本部已經在一百一十三年十二月還有一百一十四年一月分別散發審核通知還請勞動部來檢討查明收回"},{"start":2471.744,"end":2487.154,"text":"那這個部分因為113年度的會計年度已經結束那依據憲法第105條跟決算法第26條規定審計部審核這個中央政府總決算是有法定期限這個法定期限是三個月"},{"start":2488.075,"end":2507.713,"text":"那因為實現的關係所以我們審計部審酌相關的這個實際運作的情形我們就依據審計法第22條跟決算法25條規定在今年就114年的3月21日散發審核通知那修正就業安定基金113年度附屬單位決算"},{"start":2511.016,"end":2539.196,"text":"那實際的修正內容是簡列113年度的支出是1203萬餘元以前年度的部分支出是6020萬餘元那這這個部分是增列為收入並且全數增列為其他應收款合計是7224萬餘元上開的修正事項勞動部已經在今年的3月28日函附同意本部修正"},{"start":2540.506,"end":2562.828,"text":"那第二個部分是我們查核發現有一些基金管理跟執行面的制度面的缺失部分那舊安定基金他的管理跟執行我們發現舊安定基金管理會跟舊安定基金內部管控審核小組並沒有充分發揮原定的審議跟考核還有審核的功能"},{"start":2563.408,"end":2573.091,"text":"另外勞動部辦理性別工作平等法20週年音樂會跟110到113年度期間勞動節主題影片採購案是採直接洽各該年度的文宣媒體通路採購的開口契約廠商辦理這樣的做法無法驗核這個履歷的結果"},{"start":2589.855,"end":2611.75,"text":"另外實際在經費的運用部分並沒有明確來劃分公寓預算跟就業安定基金它的這個預算的執行範疇那最後是有關這個就業安定基金部分有關相關的採購的宣導品它的分送跟領用沒有一個制度面的一個規範"},{"start":2612.851,"end":2638.289,"text":"那這些缺失本部都已經在去年的12月跟今年的1月分別散發審核通知函請勞動部來查明檢討那勞動部也非常積極在處理這件事情在今年的1月2月跟3月分別函附本部已經研提各項的改進措施這些措施我想等一下部長應該會詳細說明但我想這個部分我就把它列掉"},{"start":2639.659,"end":2658.014,"text":"再來第三個部分是我們查核發現有一些部分的採購案跟金管財務遺設有刑事責任那勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署我們簡稱叫北分署他辦理110年"},{"start":2661.181,"end":2676.138,"text":"新庄本部空间美化整修工程跟113年办理113年形象识别计视觉设计的采购案我们发现有投标厂商间已有刻意不为竞争的情况"},{"start":2676.738,"end":2694.678,"text":"另外北分署在金管部分的宣討品我們去實際就地查核的時候有流向不明的情形本部已經在去年的12月將查核發現的異常情勢有密送台灣新北地方檢查署並按來偵辦"},{"start":2697.48,"end":2716.517,"text":"根據新北地檢署114年4月2日的新聞稿該署指揮法務部調查局新北市調查處偵辦北分署公務員圖利案已經偵查終結相關人員有一部分人員有涉犯刑法的洩密"},{"start":2717.538,"end":2731.708,"text":"貪污自罪條例的侵占公用及公有財物圖利正採購法的以非法方法使開標發生不正確結果還有借用他人名義或證件投標等罪嫌"},{"start":2733.188,"end":2760.895,"text":"那最後是有關這個其他的審計處理那我們審計部已經根據依據監察院在去年的12月23日的韓市把我們整個案子的查核發現把它中整之後在去年的12月27日呈報監察院那另外也根據法務部廉政署在去年12月19日的來函在去年12月我們也中整整個查核發現韓送該署來"},{"start":2763.315,"end":2779.752,"text":"參考那最後報告本案的後續審核列管追蹤那政府審計是一個持續的集合過程不會說在某一個環節集合完就結束其實他包括後面的follow up我們都是會"},{"start":2780.533,"end":2808.384,"text":"持續來追蹤機關的實際改正情形也會跟機關保持密切的互動來就執行的疑義部分或者一些自愛部分一同協同來找出解決的方法促進整個政府的良善治理所以在這個部分第一個在有關支出跟基金設置目的跟用途關聯性不高部分剛已經報告過我們最後是修正"},{"start":2809.324,"end":2813.413,"text":"7224萬餘元那勞動部已經同意修正那這個部分我們會督促勞動部來收回來歸還這個就業安定基金"},{"start":2821.274,"end":2846.047,"text":"第二個部分是涉及財務責任部分剛剛已經報告就是新北地檢署的新聞稿已經說明這個案子已經偵查終結那其中有一部分的人員涉犯刑法洩密跟貪污自罪條例侵占公用即公有財物等罪嫌那我們審計部會等到這個司法判決確定後會將案官人員"},{"start":2847.088,"end":2868.294,"text":"如果有違背預算或有關法令的不當支出我們會依據審計法的規定來辦理追繳的程序那至於案關有一部分是涉及民間的廠商民間廠商部分如果經過判決確定有違標或不正利益等情況我們也會通知勞動部依據政府採購法的規定來處理"},{"start":2869.514,"end":2890.231,"text":"那最後是制度面缺失跟行政責任部分那勞動部已經在去年今年的1月2月跟3月分別含糊說明檢討改進的措施並且已經參考本部的查核意見就這個基金的用途面管理面跟資訊公開面提出六項的積極的策定作為"},{"start":2891.112,"end":2908.743,"text":"另外有關採購案設有人員行政維持部分 勞動部已經提報人事考據會來處理那本部也會繼續來列管追蹤各項改進措施的後續辦理情形那以上請請請主席各位委員女士先生指教 謝謝好 謝謝那接續我們請洪部長來報告"},{"start":2926.661,"end":2941.31,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天貴委員會召開第十一屆第三會期第五次全體委員會議我應邀進行勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責專題報告"},{"start":2942.651,"end":2965.703,"text":"那本部主管基金包括救安定基金勞工保險局作業基金基建工資電廠基金及勞工退休基金包括薪製或救製那鑑於審計部近期針對救安基金經費使用情形進行專案查核那原本部救救安基金經費收支情形審計部審核結果及本部回覆情形"},{"start":2966.703,"end":2995.05,"text":"還有基金管理運用之檢討及測經作為以及修正檢列之經費如何追回及究責進行報告那第一個是針對救安基金的這個經費收支狀況那政府會促進國民就業平衡雇主應聘僱外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第10款規定之工作所衍生之社會成本及處理勞資爭議保障勞工權依據就業服務法及勞資爭議處理法規定設立救安基金"},{"start":2996.61,"end":3006.853,"text":"113年度基金來源用途預算數分別為284億餘元281億餘元執行數分別為279億餘元230億餘元那本期還剩49億元基金餘額為434億餘元那本部第二個本部同意審計部修正113年就案基金決算之審核決定"},{"start":3022.219,"end":3040.462,"text":"那審議部查核本部及所屬109至113年度救安基金經費滯用情形的審核結果認為本部所屬運用救安基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作等各項支出與救安基金設置的目的及支出用途關聯性不高因與收回"},{"start":3041.463,"end":3064.472,"text":"修正救安基金123年度決算7224萬元那6254元那對於上開經費支用原油及辦理情形本部前已提供說明申付審計部這些支出項目本部當時認為是屬於業務推動所需並經評估符合救安基金用途規定"},{"start":3065.372,"end":3087.383,"text":"原由救安基金支應那但是審計部在114年2月8號來函認為本部辦理多項宣導案未審視業務需求積極爭取編列公務預算長期運用救安基金預算相關支出與救安基金支出用途關聯性不高屬於公務預算支用範疇英語收回本部予以尊重因此"},{"start":3088.603,"end":3107.852,"text":"該部在3月21日來函修正救安基金113年度決算72246254元那本部於3月28號同意修正那第三本部以救救安基金管理之管理及運用通盤檢討提出各項測驚作為"},{"start":3109.133,"end":3125.884,"text":"那經歸納審計部針對本部及所屬機關使用的救安基金相關個案所提意見及本部就制度面及執行面通盤檢討結果有關救安基金運用的合一性爭議主要噪音在下面幾個部分第一本部公務預算"},{"start":3127.833,"end":3145.081,"text":"業務費編列不足長期營用救安基金來使用那文宣媒體通路採購開口契約之適用範圍有待檢討第三點宣導品採購及領用分送未定相關規範第四點救安基金內部管理機制需要更強化的問題"},{"start":3146.595,"end":3159.277,"text":"針對上述問題本部已經在114年1月3號提出救安基金管理運用經濟規劃報告分別從基金的用途面管理面資訊面等面向全面進行檢討並提出合理"},{"start":3160.563,"end":3181.059,"text":"争取合理编列公务预算,律定用途范围与滞用原则,规范广宣经费使用,强化审议机制,强化内控机制并运用外部集合及增加资讯公开等六项精进对策,令旧文宣媒体通路采购开口契约制适用范围进行检讨,目前已推动相关策进作为如下。"},{"start":3182.52,"end":3199.126,"text":"本部將更謹慎評估救安基金預算執行效益針對與基金用途關聯性不高但何屬公務預算自動範圍之支出項目爭取別類公務預算來支應規劃修正救安基金收支保管及運用辦法以及訂定救安基金"},{"start":3200.106,"end":3222.703,"text":"致用原則明定不得致用於業務無關與非或非公務用途之項目及採購宣導品不得作為年節禮品等使用自114年度起本部文宣媒體採購通路開口契約之偽商工作事項將以網路平面電視廣播媒體等通路採購為主定定"},{"start":3223.604,"end":3249.109,"text":"宣導憑採購及政法管理原則明定不得採購與業務推動無關或非必要之宣導品訂定就案基金審議要點修正勞動部勞動立法人署就案基金內部管控審核作業要點重要計劃預算金額由五千萬元改為兩千萬以上需送基金內部管控審核小組審議以擴大管控範圍第四點"},{"start":3250.236,"end":3275.815,"text":"救安基金修正簡列之經費如何追回局舊者這些支出項目本部當時認為是屬業務推動所需並經評估符合救安基金用途規定現在既然審計部本期全責認為上開支出與救安基金支出用途關聯性不高也就是不宜使用救安基金"},{"start":3276.756,"end":3301.221,"text":"所以要求救安基金應收回這些款項因此本部將尋求行政院及相關單位協助包括以包括補編公務預算等可行等各種可行方式處理救安基金檢列收回事宜本案除審計部辦理專案查核外監察院亦對相關人員是否設有疏失責任立案調查本部"},{"start":3302.588,"end":3323.661,"text":"本部立場尊重檢調及司法最後調查判決結果如今判決確認有人謀不章或隱私等違法情形本部將配合檢調及司法偵辦結果追究相關人員財務責任結與針對近期外界質疑救安基金運用合一性質相關爭議本部將透過在用途面爭取合理配置公務預算"},{"start":3324.85,"end":3340.926,"text":"公務與基金預算 綠定基金用途範圍與資用原則 及強化廣宣經費使用規範在管理面強化審議機制 強化內控與運用外部集合 並提升基金運用資訊透明度等設計作為未來將持續滾動檢討基金是管理機制與"},{"start":3344.469,"end":3355.772,"text":"及經費運用成效以強化救安基金預算編列與執行之把關機制健全基金之管理運用 以上報告進行指教並預祝主席各位身體健康 謝謝好 謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊文公報"},{"start":3376.684,"end":3401.241,"text":"我們現在開始巡打做以下宣告第一本委員會巡打時間八分鐘內席委員四分鐘十點半截止花園登記如果有書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理暫定我們十點半左右休息十分鐘十一點半處理臨時提案現在我們請登記第一位陳昭之委員花園"},{"start":3404.144,"end":3417.754,"text":"11點截止收案再補充一下,請您宣告一下謝謝主席,有請洪部長等一下,11點截止收案,收臨時提案,這個都要念了有請洪部長"},{"start":3425.393,"end":3448.366,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長就川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲那你目前的掌握哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊你手邊有這樣的評估嗎就目前其實因為美方其實在提供相關的資訊其實陸陸續續都還有一些新的資訊我想大家都知道"},{"start":3448.806,"end":3473.186,"text":"所以應該是說目前還沒有具體的沒有應變的那個措施不是當然有我剛才講的是說因為美方確實現在他的相關的做法上面還陸續在提供一些新的資訊但我目前是有認為確實來自一些傳統產業尤其是製造業出口的製造業可能會是受到影響比較重比方說機械"},{"start":3475.02,"end":3491.091,"text":"汽車零組件包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等我們其實重點在關注這些產業相關的勞工希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心但是我要講說現在已經有企業開始裁員停工放無薪假了你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":3491.651,"end":3513.5,"text":"我們其實最近在媒體上面有看到有看到這事情那我們現在把通報的機制給建立起來包括這些資訊的回報的機制給建立起來那媒體上面有目前聽聞的我們也會打電話過去我們也跟他們主動的去了解實際的狀況會如何來掌握這些最快速的掌握這些訊息"},{"start":3514.1,"end":3537.922,"text":"我的目的是告訴你那星期一我們也一起到行政院去跟卓院長共商國事啦那因為本黨立場非常清楚我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益啦面對這個難關大家一起要來度過那如果說為了因應這個關稅的衝擊假設勞動部有任何特別的預算你要提出來那我們覺得只要是這個合理而且預期有效那我們一定支持好嗎我就先告訴部長謝謝"},{"start":3539.864,"end":3559.996,"text":"部長那我們還是要回到今天的你的報告主題啦就業安定基金啦那這個你當然在善後啦你現在在善後當然我相信你會很頭大我不曉得你睡不睡了早不覺啦那當然這個總統講了用了一句不太下當的這個做法至少我們還有音樂不過那個部長你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了嗎部長"},{"start":3562.017,"end":3570.887,"text":"是不是以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範"},{"start":3572.076,"end":3599.318,"text":"好 部長那我現在想請教你因為剛剛幾個部會所有人都報告了許前部長的演唱會記錄曝光他的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分那審計部也揪出前5年救安基金違法大概有7224萬是不符合他們用的是關聯性不高啦那關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途對嗎不符合法定用途嗎關聯性不高"},{"start":3600.239,"end":3626.992,"text":"不符合嘛 我跟委員說明審計部的報告他的最後的判定是關聯性不高因於修正收回但是否違法這部分還是需要由司法單位來去做確認這個你的意思說不符合法定用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯人民的可以接受嗎不符合法定的用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎那個"},{"start":3629.046,"end":3656.575,"text":"我要說的是說 審計部的判定是和關聯性不高當然他是跟救安基金的法定用途來去做對照 認為關聯性不高但是否是違法使用 是否違法營私是否人謀不章 這樣子的違法這部分當然這是另外一個層次部長 我想要繼續請教你七千多萬被亂花了 只需要修正"},{"start":3657.375,"end":3667.698,"text":"那你要怎麼究責目前我要看到的是不是修正的部分因為這是確定的部分那你這個究責的部分因為你說這個是歸納科目不當啦那這個很離譜啊我覺得這個玩文字遊戲啊那早期的蔡英文總統的那個專機啊明明就是那個走私他就說是超買啊那你現在這個東西這個"},{"start":3681.682,"end":3690.509,"text":"歸納成不當用法這個歸納不當那就是說意思是說如果用就業安定性辦演唱會不行那我們換個名目就行了嗎你的意思就變這樣啊所以是歸納的名目不當成為你用的應該是我在臉書上面其實寫的"},{"start":3699.497,"end":3725.371,"text":"這個我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正修正的意思是什麼所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話過去可能會有哪些種樣態歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態我的整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述的我也有繼續看你講了一句是說你要先行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來這個歸還就業安定基金這個很離譜"},{"start":3726.832,"end":3732.138,"text":"意思是說 勞動部亂花人民的錢 納稅錢你現在要叫人民的納稅 再挖一筆錢來補這個洞這樣對嗎 這樣對嗎這個預算能不砍嗎你先亂花了一筆人民錢 現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞這是你的建議"},{"start":3747.116,"end":3772.127,"text":"陳委員我向你說明第一個我們其實必須 勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要尊重也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理那過去如果有被判定為修正檢列並收回的話編列公務預算來歸電是做法之一被判定為修正檢列"},{"start":3774.175,"end":3784.625,"text":"要追回那編列公務預算規定是做法之一那我是一個行政部門我必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行"},{"start":3789.55,"end":3808.508,"text":"我們還有別的方法部長你現在在說明這個但人民能不能接受我們來談預算法第25條政府不得於預算所定之外動用公款那有違背的支出應該以民法的規定請求返還那我現在要請教你勞動部有沒有對許明春謝怡榮提告"},{"start":3810.169,"end":3820.548,"text":"這是預算法跟陳委員說明我們接下來因為現在我知道大家很關心比方說決策者的責任"},{"start":3822.578,"end":3848.306,"text":"對不對你先說你有沒有打算提告大家關心絕對責任目前我們在關於追究責任的部分我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究部長你又來了檢調他追查的是一個圖利貪污的刑事責任我現在談的是這個民事責任根據預算法這個是兩件事請你要先分開這個根據這個預算法你可以去打民事官司討回來"},{"start":3849.426,"end":3868.276,"text":"你不要什麼事都丟給丟皮球給檢調檢調辦的是刑事的我沒有丟皮球給檢調所以我請問勞動部你有沒有要對許明春謝宜榮提告什麼時候提告我們相關的責任的追究我們會配合目前檢調跟司法都在辦我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究"},{"start":3870.306,"end":3890.615,"text":"你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分看來你是不會做這個提告你還是要納稅人權來補動那我現在下一題我問你這個警消組工會你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候 您都有連署喔這個支持警消組工會的法案我想問你 你現在立場還一樣嗎"},{"start":3894.085,"end":3903.914,"text":"部長因為你簽署過嘛你的立場還一樣嗎你不要跟我說時空背景不同你最新的一份是去年五月不到一年不到一年沒有時空背景不同的問題"},{"start":3905.478,"end":3924.293,"text":"那個跟陳委員說明目前其實針對這個相關組工會的問題目前我們這是兩院在做討論目前考試院還是目前考試院會是以公務員學會法的方式來去處理團結權是但是我說這一個議題是兩院在討論目前在行政跟"},{"start":3933.323,"end":3946.194,"text":"因為公會法是你管的那我可以問你的態度你的態度是什麼就是這個議題是兩院在討論那目前考試院還是希望用協會法來去處理包括警校跟公務員的團結權跟協商權"},{"start":3949.256,"end":3970.192,"text":"你擔心罷工權對不對你是擔心罷工權嗎你是擔心當初你連署那我先問你一件事老師可不可以組工會教師可以組工會現在教師是可以組工會的那教師沒有罷工權嘛對不對現在是組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的嘛第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利嘛"},{"start":3970.652,"end":3995.729,"text":"那你的態度是什麼所以我跟陳委員說明在這個議題上面兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法你是勞動部的 你一直在跟我說兩院啊你的工會法你在管啊 你的態度是 但是我是兩院的成員之一啊沒有 你就代表勞動部去談啊 談這件事啊對 但是我的意思是說我這樣講可不可以就是說如果警消不給予罷工權那你同意他們組工會嗎"},{"start":3997.689,"end":4022.021,"text":"陳委目前確實在兩院在討論這件事情的時候目前還是以公務員協會法現在都不當勞動部長了就是病院的部長了好啦那我問你齁你們家柯總召說警消組工會會造成中共侵台你同意嗎你同意嗎寫得很清楚喔你同意嗎你就告訴我你同意這個說法嗎我尊重柯總召的你尊重他的說法"},{"start":4023.482,"end":4033.339,"text":"他這個抹紅基層這個員工警消的這個姓抹紅他們你還是打擊工會存在的意義你尊重他的說法"},{"start":4034.267,"end":4060.1,"text":"陳委員我的意思是說這是柯總召他的認為我問你嘛 他的說法那你同意嗎你認同嗎我還是回到在兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候我們還是希望能夠盡量的去協助團結權跟協商權罷工是很不得已是最後手段你知道政府要爛到一個程度罷工權才會處理我問你你知不知道醫院已經有工會了你知道醫院有工會嗎那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎"},{"start":4066.636,"end":4085.852,"text":"這個上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情她叫盧媽媽你叫盧媽媽那你就回到家庭去服務就好了我問你說為了性平你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳這個性平那你也不肯你說你們總召做這個你們也不肯現在總召說這個會清台景霄的主公會也會清台"},{"start":4086.753,"end":4097.043,"text":"你也沒有態度喔?你怎麼這麼軟趴趴?你什麼都不敢講?你只敢罵我們家國昌喔?你只會罵國昌對不對?我不想講他的名字,他在去年審議宣的時候,他說他要保證三道讓國人有感"},{"start":4108.516,"end":4135.648,"text":"我問大家我們的總預算被這樣亂刪亂砍你有感的嗎你憤怒嗎我知道已經憤怒到都已經坐不住了對不對人民當然憤怒啊你把這個錢拿去開演唱會拿去裝潢豪華的那個辦公室人民當然這個憤怒啊所以這個我覺得部長我再跟你最後講一句話我禮拜一進去行政院的時候因為卓院長說這一次的這是我面對這個"},{"start":4137.349,"end":4159.474,"text":"關稅的那個海嘯我們有很多事要請立法院配合不是只有關稅部分有很多這個非關稅貿易障礙的部分還有一些法規要鬆綁他希望我們配合我跟他講了一句話我說好你要大家配合那你現在不要搞這個你在搞大罷免這個部分那如果說民間團體我們尊重他立法院我們尊重他但是行政官員你現在要立法院配合啊"},{"start":4160.034,"end":4181.78,"text":"那我可不可以勸你一句話你聽聽看因為我也跟左院長這樣講的可不可以行政官員行政人員不要上台不要去上大罷免的舞台去高談闊論發佈假訊息你可以嗎你可以嗎你做得到嗎我這樣跟左院長講的第一個事情是這個罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大那你上台啦"},{"start":4183.871,"end":4190.454,"text":"我上面講我其實是復述黃委員的說法因為這個保證三道讓國人有感這是他講的話國難當前我剛剛就跟你講你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢這個錢不砍怎麼行啊所以車委員我還是要強調關於審計的部分我們必須尊重也依照審計的結果還有相關的規範來去做辦理"},{"start":4208.339,"end":4222.043,"text":"好啦部長你要記得你是勞動部部長不要動不著跟我說病院病院兩個人一起談你都沒有自己的態度這樣行不行部長你自己要記得勞動部長好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長我們都說尊重某某人的花園但是不同意他的看法我們大部分都這樣子"},{"start":4243.526,"end":4245.468,"text":"主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長林委員早部長早就業安定基金在113年底大規模大概就是350億元了那的確110年到112年這三年是因為疫情要動用這些來做紓困跟促進就業"},{"start":4272.932,"end":4283.077,"text":"的措施所以產生赤字那不過整體來看的話就安定基金的收入事實上是逐年成長的可是支出也是逐年成長甚至去年"},{"start":4284.085,"end":4310.349,"text":"11月還爆發出我們的就業安定基金使用的一個爭議所以就想問就是因為就業安定基金這個所謂提到遭受濫用這個姿勢體大所以部長你在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金的管理會提出了討論幾天後在今年的1月3號就提出了三面六向"},{"start":4311.238,"end":4327.737,"text":"策進作為所以想問部長這三面六策進作為的政策宣示提出來至今大概三個月了那你那個落實狀況是如何好跟林理委員說明目前其實現在這個三面向六作為其實"},{"start":4328.7,"end":4350.028,"text":"我們正在執行這是現在進行式那也包括這個我剛才說到我們會合理的來跟行政院來爭取編列公務預算這其實也是這次很多救安基金使用爭議的一個源頭那這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了那也包括綠定用途使用範圍包括我們在收支管理辦法裡面這個"},{"start":4352.049,"end":4376.27,"text":"過去大家覺得有部分的項目比方說裡面有一個第12款其他大家覺得這好像過寬我們也會把這其他這一款直接給修掉讓它的範圍的規定能夠更加的清楚那包括這裡面其實我們目前其實也針對救安基金的支用的原則這些目前都已經相關的草擬已經訂定出來所以這些都是在進行中的"},{"start":4377.071,"end":4399.513,"text":"工作那我們就一定會照這個往前走部長大概什麼時候因為現在監會安排這個樣子的議題因為從去年發生到現在那你這些的測驗作為看起來事實上是蠻具體的那大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的一個成效你自己預估"},{"start":4404.511,"end":4426.906,"text":"現在我們這些相關的法規命令的修訂應該目前都在修訂中嘛對不對應該這一兩個月應該就會年終之後應該就會完全所以這個會期大概就已經會有一些具體的修訂完成我們目前在宣導品的正法管理原則還有救安基金的審議要點目前都已經訂定完成"},{"start":4427.486,"end":4449.605,"text":"那還有應該是還有包括像剛剛說的這個收支管理運用辦法跟這個志願原則因為這個要抱怨所以這其實也在程序中所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會羅列成這已經進行了甚至都已經在救安基金的管理會裡面之前都已經納入討論了就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了"},{"start":4451.909,"end":4468.699,"text":"那省紀部也因為這樣針對109年到113年這五年當中的救安基金的張冊查賬就認為勞動部過去五年運用拍形象影片然後經營臉書還有辦理僑親活動跟發春節的紅包跟購物購山節禮物"},{"start":4474.228,"end":4491.028,"text":"這些都不屬於救安基金的法定用途可是實際上各部會也都會去因為我們還是要讓人家知道說我們到底做了什麼事情一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象的影片製作只是他認為是現在不屬於放在救安基金"},{"start":4492.898,"end":4511.378,"text":"就要來問因為要填補這個5年7224萬的基金缺口有人指控就是說這是全民買單可是我說剛剛講其他部會也應該辦只是今天放的項目不同所以我不知道部長對這個事情你的看法是什麼"},{"start":4512.596,"end":4537.695,"text":"跟林委員說明因為確實現在審計部在3月21號給我們相關的判定是認為這7000多萬過去在救安基金的支用和救安基金的用途的關聯不高希望我們修正跟收回那我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理那過去被判定修正減劣跟收回其實當然編列公務運算規定是做法之一"},{"start":4539.076,"end":4553.133,"text":"那但是我覺得具體的做法當然我們也願意再跟主計跟審計來去做討論那可是我說因為勞動部是一個行政部門其實我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範來去"},{"start":4558.279,"end":4578.411,"text":"不管是做回應也好或者是依照這個來做相關的作為也好我們是一個行政部門我們有義務要來這樣做可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性當然這部分我們可以再來我們願意來跟審計部主計來做討論但是編列公務預算規定是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的做法之一"},{"start":4582.513,"end":4598.002,"text":"救安基金事實上收入百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月按照繳納的救安安定費就安定費剩下的就是基金的支息所以法定用途是在促進國民就業跟提升勞工福祉"},{"start":4600.305,"end":4624.778,"text":"在處理有關外國人聘僱的這些事務上所以想問郝部長在基金運用上有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工、聘僱跟管理的行政支柱可是86.57%是用在本國勞工跟企業主的各項補助"},{"start":4625.68,"end":4634.655,"text":"的還要紓困上所以對於移工的雇主跟本國勞工跟企業主採取兩套的運用的邏輯所以想問部長這個是合理的嗎"},{"start":4635.427,"end":4662.021,"text":"我想其實那時候在訂定救護法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定的自用的用途裡面其中一個原因就是認為其實移工的一些聘僱可能會對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響所以從這個移工的聘僱的過程裡面有收取到的救安費也用在其實協助本國勞工的這個就業促進上面主要是這個"},{"start":4662.941,"end":4687.657,"text":"主要是這個用途 我講的是比例啦 因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中 我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例 因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該 我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的啦所以應該要去做考量"},{"start":4688.393,"end":4709.365,"text":"那在過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好或者是2019到2022的疫情期間都動用救安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進甚至包括衛福部的長照的喘息服務跟我們疫情期間的移工的檢疫跟移民署非法滯留移工子女的遣返的經費"},{"start":4710.606,"end":4736.043,"text":"甚至有學者說是不是應該要用救安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼所以想問部長救安基金應該不是政府的應該不但是政府的小金櫃可是也是救火隊因為有時候有需求像疫情來了紓困甚至要怎麼去促進這疫情期間的就業所以動之救安基金提案的理由就是會五發八門所以來自"},{"start":4737.628,"end":4766.491,"text":"各部會政府各部會甚至來自民間的倡議所以部長說如何確保救安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力來秉持做出比較好的判斷就像委員現在其實列出來你列出右邊的這個圖的第五條這應該就是我們的收支保管運用辦法我們其實這一次的修訂裡面會把現在裡面給有一個第12我們會直接把這個其他有關支出給刪掉"},{"start":4768.271,"end":4789.954,"text":"我們會把這個直接給刪掉也就是說大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口太太大了或者太有彈性了我們會直接把這個刪掉所以我們接下來是希望就按經驗之用應該要更密切的來跟剛剛那三項包括促進國民就業包括提供勞工福祉也包括外國人聘服管理相關業務所需更緊密的確認連結"},{"start":4791.275,"end":4806.126,"text":"所以我們會在收支管理用辦法上面來去強化這部分的連結比較能夠去確認救安基金的使用不會超出這個法定的用途之外這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是這些相關的辦法來去確認這件事情"},{"start":4808.19,"end":4834.121,"text":"所以最後本席還是希望救安基金對於外國勞工跟僱主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性公平性而且希望勞動部是不是可以釐清我們救安基金的支出範圍避免腐爛他制度上保護救安基金的管理的時候可能就是要獨立行使的職權來抗拒壓力所以能夠完備救安基金的整個管理的法制作業來獻起達標再麻煩部長 謝謝"},{"start":4839.24,"end":4844.022,"text":"謝謝 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請陳清威委員質詢謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝官員 我想先請審計部"},{"start":4867.761,"end":4891.327,"text":"你好這邊第一個我是要問的是我今天有幫您印出來這是您之前做出來的一個救安基金支出項目上面很明顯的寫了衛福衛福基金設置目的還有基金用途規定我先幫您把衛福圈起來"},{"start":4893.993,"end":4907.189,"text":"所以您從3月的第一份報告就寫到說救安基金呢經過你們的查視未符合基金設置目的還有基金用途規定情形昨天來了兩份報告 您知道嗎"},{"start":4908.32,"end":4932.876,"text":"我知道我幫你比較一下左邊跟右邊的報告一開始的報告您還是維持這個版本你說衛福我也請這個CHAT GPT幫大家翻譯翻譯什麼叫做用途衛福啊用途衛福的意思就是說實際使用方法跟原本規定設計或允許的用途不相符合"},{"start":4933.977,"end":4962.087,"text":"結果呢 這個你們的聯絡人貴單位的聯絡人忽然在兩三小時後把這個第一份報告收回傳了第二份報告來那這兩份報告唯一修改的地方就在用途未符 用途規定未符這些字全部變成關聯性不高那我再幫大家翻譯翻譯關聯性不高的意思就是說雖然可能沒有違規或誤用的問題"},{"start":4967.22,"end":4968.18,"text":"那時間可以暫停我們的電腦"},{"start":4996.263,"end":4997.163,"text":"電腦斷了可以啊好時間可以繼續所以呢最後就改成關聯性不高我想問一下你們這兩三個小時內到底發生什麼事因為你三月到現在都是說衛福"},{"start":5023.513,"end":5046.669,"text":"結果第一份版本也是未服後來改成關聯性不高請問有沒有什麼上級的施壓要配合勞動部報告委員就是沒有上級施壓那我們審計機關是獨立機關也不會配合勞動部那跟委員報告就是我們會文字處理是因為我們後面在校對的時候發現一個問題就是"},{"start":5048.17,"end":5076.662,"text":"我們跟勞動部來來回回的公文其實從去年底一直到今年歷次包括我們的審核通知包括勞動部後面的申複還有我們在合附回去的公文來來回回其實文字啊大概這兩個文字都有在用意思是說在你們從去年年底至今因為我這邊手上有一本你們跟"},{"start":5078.082,"end":5100.231,"text":"勞動部申付的資料我早上8點10分才能才拿到啦謝謝部長讓我這個培養速讀的習慣很快就把他速讀完了那這個你們更改是因為說後來覺得部分是關聯性不高那還是有未符的嗎還是其他本來你全部覺得是未符合現在全部都變關聯性不高你可以舉例嗎在民系裡面齁其實"},{"start":5106.463,"end":5130.555,"text":"我特別把這個整個背景稍微報告一下就是因為就業安定基金他有一個收支保管及運用辦法那剛剛部長有特別說明說他的第五條的第一項是規定基金的用途在現行條文裡面他的第十二款他就有一個其他有關支出那我們在審計的時候"},{"start":5132.876,"end":5153.846,"text":"這個JOND基金這個收支保管運用辦法他的解釋是主管機關在解釋就是勞動部在解釋所以就會有一個很大的行政裁量行政裁量這個就是剛剛我們我一開始報告說勞動部願意進行改正把這一款拿掉我覺得在審計外部監督來看他就是一個進步的做法"},{"start":5154.306,"end":5168.304,"text":"那產經部可以稍微告訴我們一下您列出來這些裡面當然包括演唱會啦包括印紅包袋 包括送禮包括影片的製作 媒宣啊等等您覺得關聯性最不高的是哪一項"},{"start":5170.707,"end":5183.256,"text":"這個是有些是很主觀啦因為跟委員報告就是比如說剛剛講他的基金的用途其實就很確定三大項一個是促進國民就業第二個是"},{"start":5185.137,"end":5208.596,"text":"外國人聘僱管理跟許可還有提升勞工福祉及勞工權益的輔助那我們洋洋灑灑列出來我們修正的這7224萬餘元這個所以你的意思是說其實我幫您做了這張表跟剛剛講的那三個理由您都覺得關聯性其實不高但是沾上邊"},{"start":5211.081,"end":5218.333,"text":"是吧從我們因為這個部分我們會希望那個勞動部來說勞動部其實他們在生物內容列舉出來謝謝謝謝謝謝沈基部那我們請勞動部部長"},{"start":5227.034,"end":5253.384,"text":"先幫我放一下這兩段影片這兩段影片是20天前,我在黃國昌委員後面諮詢勞動部回審計部的立場到底是每一分每一行都浪費到的錢要做回來還是幫過去所犯的錯誤再問過是非其實看迴函是最清楚啦我這樣直接跟部長說好了齁如果這個不是密件的話,那是不是請會後勤勞動部來提供"},{"start":5255.264,"end":5276.714,"text":"呃 應該是可以吧好 可以嗎 好好 下一段可不可以也給我們未還委員會的委員可以啊還有我們國民黨黨團我們也想看這個七千萬您到底要如何發揮你的魄力把它追討回來好 那這個是我們的責任因為民眾希望可以追討回來"},{"start":5279.226,"end":5285.725,"text":"昨天您也跟黃國昌委員說您會去找許明春部長溝通請問您至今溝通了嗎"},{"start":5287.476,"end":5315.515,"text":"我想跟陳委員說明包括你剛才在這個影片上面的內容其實我們在審計部的最後給我們的審計的認定是在3月21號我們收到然後3月28號我們正式的回函給審計部同意審計部要我們修正的這件事情所以3月28號是禮拜五所以3月28號隔天的應該是禮拜一或禮拜二其實我就把3月28號我們回給審計部的函提供給"},{"start":5317.735,"end":5330.929,"text":"包括黃委員包括各個在各政黨跟委員會3月28號的函等於是我們最後我們比較完整的包括我們的立場跟我們的改進我們其實當時就已經提供了"},{"start":5331.803,"end":5358.624,"text":"好那我今天是8點10分收到的啦收到這一份當然裡面包括了很多您跟審計部之間種種的回覆因為您說有一些部分您想要申付他還是跟救安基金有相關性等等的我這邊稍微揭露幾個奇聞共賞我等一下也會放到我的社群讓大家知道說其實國人最在意的這個演唱會啦"},{"start":5362.148,"end":5386.425,"text":"我們這個演唱會其實神蹟部有幫我們算出來演唱會總共花了368萬那您有在這個申付內容上面寫到說因為這個演唱會其實大家在網路上都有看到新聞媒體也有看到2.5小時的演唱會許明春一個人唱了半小時並且旁邊還有很專業的舞者等等的"},{"start":5387.506,"end":5404.605,"text":"那這是國人非常在意的368頁但是您幫他寫的身負理由是可以促進國民就業我也想知道這個可以促進國民就業您的KPI到底是哪裡來的啊再來還有一個整個入處的party喔"},{"start":5406.187,"end":5421.005,"text":"勞動部僑簽典禮活動勞動部入處紀念勞動部僑簽政策宣導影片這三個加起來總共是415萬但是呢大家從我們現在的slide上面看得很明顯"},{"start":5422.006,"end":5442,"text":"你的入處影片 你說這個活動415萬是回顧勞動政策推動的歷程但大家看到那天是星光閃閃 有非常多的握手 合照等等上面這個許民進部長是有專業的這個妝髮 形象照 還有這個舞裙等等"},{"start":5443.53,"end":5465.211,"text":"那我是想知道說你當然幾乎我看了這一大本你7224萬幾乎都身負了並且都講到說的確是跟國民促進就業有相關還有這個性別平權宣導有相關禁止歧視等等的你是怎麼評估出來的啊"},{"start":5466.232,"end":5489.38,"text":"我跟陳仁說明我們在申複的內容裡面主要是同仁是回顧當初為什麼這些計畫執行其實相關的思考 當初為什麼為什麼這樣思考那這些補充的說明提供給審計部但我知道"},{"start":5490.28,"end":5499.196,"text":"會有一些委員對當初的這些思考會有不同的看法這部分委員尊重那最後審計部當然就是判定審計部就是判定"},{"start":5500.516,"end":5524.534,"text":"關聯度不高不該使用救安基金這部分我們當然必須尊重審計部的判定我說實話裡面有部分的做法就我來說如果是我主觀的來說其實你不認同我也不會這樣做這是你同仁一起寫的申複印同仁是把當初在那個時間點上面為什麼會做這樣子的選擇或為什麼做這樣子的規劃的說明讓審計部知道"},{"start":5529.437,"end":5557.374,"text":"好那這個是您給我們的新聞稿上週我們本來禮拜三應該要開勞動部的委員會嘛所以我來翻譯一下您的這個新聞稿總共分成四大段第一段是說審計部要勞動部收回7224萬元認為勞動部就是在亂花錢但是您現在還在身負這個我知道整本都是你身負的理由那第二個大家最不能接受的地方就是小偷從納稅人的身上偷了錢"},{"start":5559.135,"end":5572.493,"text":"來辦這個東西300多萬的演唱會說是促進就業415萬的橋籤party說跟就業安定有相關已經被說名不符實從3月開始說未符合未符合申請資格"},{"start":5573.795,"end":5600.462,"text":"最後還是用納稅人的錢來補這個洞這是你上面寫的未來距離向行政院爭取編列年度公路預算歸還就業安定基金這就是大家不能接受的地方啊那當然你的這個新聞稿還有好大部分在講你未來會進行改革但是你對於人民最關心的亂花錢的細節到底是什麼你要怎麼追討反而是不到一半的篇幅啦"},{"start":5601.282,"end":5623.935,"text":"這個我相信不是國人想看到的新聞稿所以我可以跟你說明這一個新聞稿的內容主要是我們在收到審計部3月21號的判定之後其實我們的回應我還是必須強調審計部的判定給我們的判定是認為關聯性不高必須修正予以收回那如果從審計的規範來說的話從過去審計的規範來說因為它不是判定剔除"},{"start":5628.72,"end":5655.263,"text":"那他是判定修正予以收回那簡單來說就是他認為這不應該是救安基金使用不應該使用在救安基金應該是使用在公務預算那所以從勞動部的角度我們是一個行政部門我們必須按照審計部給我們的判定來往下執行我們必須來做他所謂的修正檢列並收回那編列公務預算規定"},{"start":5656.704,"end":5672.423,"text":"是過去被判定為修正跟收回的做法之一當然我們現在我們也願意我知道現在大家對這個看法會有一種覺得好像是不是全民買單或者是又是用納稅人的錢"},{"start":5673.764,"end":5698.752,"text":"可是就審計相關的規範這個審計的結果跟規範勞動部必須遵守因為現在的確是有人被收押剛起訴他也是花到了救安基金的錢所以如果你還要用公務預算來支付這筆錢還回去我想這個是大家常識上是不能接受的啦陳委員我跟你說明當然現在大家我說大家關心可能會不會有個人的責任"},{"start":5700.453,"end":5721.01,"text":"我們說我其實也不斷的在說明勞動部我們會配合檢調跟司法來去做如果有個人責任的所以不該從公務預算的最後你不會從公務預算是嗎如果真的司法判定下來是有比方說欽佔那該去追回"},{"start":5722.113,"end":5732.038,"text":"也許就該追回因為大家對您的期待蠻高您今天上任的時候說您對救安基金是絕不護短絕不護短到現在都沒有改變但是現在很多揪出不服的是審計部去送檢調的也是審計部倒是沒有看到勞動部有什麼內部調查或是勞動部來送檢調"},{"start":5742.728,"end":5766.043,"text":"我跟陳委員說這段時間檢調都在查我們是全力配合檢調不只檢調在查包括監察院都在查但是因為現在大家關心的是這些相關法律責任的問題這些法律責任有沒有不法有沒有不法的隱私有沒有不法的這些事情當然他也是必須由司法來做判決你剛才講的謝前分署長他也是現在是在司法的過程裡面"},{"start":5766.343,"end":5780.663,"text":"是是是這個是剛剛林月琴委員也有跟你講到你說有六項策進作為但是這個我看了一般網友啦上班族啊他們說如果他們是這樣子寫的話肯定是被老闆電死的我也念幾個給你聽"},{"start":5782.105,"end":5803.058,"text":"你說你未來有六項策進作為其中有一項是使基金使用範圍明確化不可致用於與業務無關或者是非公務用途的項目這句話簡直就是常識一般常識 聽君一席話如聽一席話再來 民定不得採購年節禮盒"},{"start":5805.399,"end":5819.471,"text":"這也是一般常識更何況你的申付內容有一個寫得很特別他買了年節禮盒你的申付內容理由是說提升多元單位能見錄還有商品價值這個是113年部長春節禮盒設計30萬然後這個你還幫他申付你這邊已經寫說不得採購年節禮盒結果你的申付理由還有這一項"},{"start":5830.66,"end":5854.342,"text":"那再來囉 各計畫應該確實依照業務性質及宣導對象評估達成要效益 何時偏略廣宣預算這也是你寫的 這不是知識 這不是常識嗎但是你剛剛的生父理由也有說我這個演唱會是有促進到就業所以我真的不知道你的生父理由到底跟你未來要趕下來的計畫到底搭不搭得起來"},{"start":5855.163,"end":5873.937,"text":"還有你寫基金管理會開會會提升計劃科目之用明細所以之前都沒有之前你們委員會都沒有提供計劃科目之用明細陳委員我跟你說明剛才說申複上面的內容就是業務單位他其實是在針對當時為什麼做這樣子的選擇進行說明"},{"start":5878.22,"end":5901.483,"text":"所以確實當時包括他當時可能認為說他的年節的禮盒的採購他採購的對象可能是我們因為勞動部下面有有輔導一些多元的單位是跟他們來採購當時是這樣但是接下來已經很清楚我們已經很清楚規範不可以再拿救安基金來採購年節禮盒不管是不是跟誰採購都不行我們現在已經做出很清楚的規定"},{"start":5901.863,"end":5924.145,"text":"但您的六項經濟之後我希望可以更大刀闊斧一點因為這個在網友的眼中看起來真的是一般公司很common sense的規定確實過去有一些規範模糊的地方所以你會看到一些大家其實覺得會不符合大家嘗試的或者是不符合期待的部分我們現在就是用直接白紙黑字的明定把這些東西絕對就禁止了"},{"start":5925.086,"end":5932.989,"text":"好那我們來講一下因為剛剛您的身負條件其實裡面寫到很多都已經跟促進就業相關改善勞工平權減少歧視等等結果這邊我想是全國人民會覺得的確勞動部部長可以幫得上忙可以改善勞工我們有一個國家發展委員會的會議出席成員是包括了所有的部長"},{"start":5948.715,"end":5963.02,"text":"我幫你們精算了一下 你們是唯一一個部門 連續102次 五屆的部長全部都不是本人出席 有的是他人代理出席 有人甚至不出席 我細數給你聽國家發展委員會第25次到第38次 國防局部長應到未到 全部請人代理"},{"start":5971.344,"end":5980.193,"text":"39到50次林美珠部長一樣陰道未到有時候請人代理都沒有再來部長許明春坐最久第51次會議開到第120次會議全部由他人代理但是他有空去開演唱會然後呢"},{"start":5987.58,"end":5992.884,"text":"再來是何沛山部長他從121次會議到124次也是應到未到然後再來是您的兩次125到126您也應到未到請他人代理我們來看一下會議的內容會議的內容有婦女及中高齡就業"},{"start":6005.514,"end":6028.972,"text":"有這個少子化有勞動部共同提報投資青年政策執行人口移民政策聘外國專業人才你這樣子從上看到下到底哪一點跟促進就業不相關你這個正式的會議不去然後你再幫救安基金寫身負我覺得這個是國人不能接受的所以這是兩件事情"},{"start":6029.893,"end":6057.694,"text":"申付是審計部要求我們要做申付的說明的我覺得不用把這兩件事情混在一起我先給你看一下你這個125跟126次啦125他的題目是產業轉型所以一定是有人要轉職有人會失業有人會需要即職的訓練第126次的會議呢是關於職場健康還有勞動保險年金服務永續等等我想跟你是再相關不過的那你看一下其他人"},{"start":6058.895,"end":6062.656,"text":"環境部部長去了文化部部長去了衛福部部長去了其他的部長都到了但是在這個過程中我是很不好意思放您這張照片但是您的這個宣講剛程道志委員員看了"},{"start":6077.065,"end":6098.183,"text":"也去了 您當民主的側翼我也很希望用您這張照片可是上面的新聞標題是寫說您願當台灣勞工的靠山因為這是您當初說盡忠職守 恪遵國家法令結果勞動部卻變成一個連續國家發展會議所有主題都是跟勞動部相關的喔連續102次部長親自衛道的部門"},{"start":6104.846,"end":6113.017,"text":"我們剛剛查了一下 比方剛剛提到的12月19號我們沒有到過那天在立法院裡面審勞動部的預算就是"},{"start":6114.762,"end":6135.826,"text":"那你下次可以到我覺得當然如果有時間我當然會盡量到我們期待你下次可以到剛剛包括剛剛陳委員其實提到的這幾個主題其實我們在行政院也常常跟不管國發會或者是跟經濟部或相關的部會其實很密集的在做討論並不是我沒有親身到這個會議上就代表對於這個議題不重視並不是這樣就像剛剛那個會議的時間其實我們是在"},{"start":6139.094,"end":6157.14,"text":"這個委員會裡面我知道 但其他部長到了所以我這邊也稍微給您看一下其他部長蠻重視的 是我也希望說您未來也可以當一個民主的部長然後把您部長的職責也都做好如果沒有其他更重要的事情的話當然我們也要當然應該自己親自出席 對不起交給我最後兩個問題因為就是有人拜託幫忙問好 這個"},{"start":6162.222,"end":6180.85,"text":"低硬度的MOU 去年我們2月就簽了MOU但是11月勞動部召開記者會說未來每兩個月就會開一次會議那必要的話就線上會議所以今年1月我們應該要開結果今年1月沒開你1月的時候說2月會開那至今開了嗎"},{"start":6181.87,"end":6203.753,"text":"我們第一次工作會議已經開完了我們也開了第二次工作會議前的會前會那目前跟台印雙方在印度移工的引進上面其實大家溝通是很密切的那目前的狀況是因為包括委員們都比較很重視我們其實職聘的部分"},{"start":6204.4,"end":6223.332,"text":"那所以現在目前的階段是我們也在更進一步的去了解這個應方他其實相關的聘僱的系統他們有一套系統那應方也在了解我們其實對於職聘的期待其實大家關心的是現在是在會前會已經開完了那現在是要在約下一次的工作會大概是幾月"},{"start":6224.412,"end":6244.102,"text":"這要看跟運方這要看運方的討論 對可是跟運方的互動是很密切的不是責任在運方這是雙方可是跟運方的溝通包括跟運方的討論是很密切的所以你們以後會按照你們原本約定每兩個月開會照樣跟我們當然希望盡量的但是現在是會前會開完"},{"start":6245.242,"end":6271.634,"text":"那大家正在彼此熟悉對方一些細節的操作的做法所以年底這個進度你覺得可以如期完成嗎我們希望假設一切順利因為前面只是一千名的小規模的示範那我們當然希望順利所以也是因為希望順利所以我們其實跟硬方私底下面再去了解他們做法上面的細節這個是很密切的"},{"start":6271.894,"end":6300.873,"text":"好我希望下次還是可以維持兩個月可以開會一次就依照你們的MOU最後一個問題就是之前劉建國委員曾經提出你們這個事辦計畫彈性運價事辦計畫非常的糟糕所以曾經簡略還有凍結100萬的預算待改善之後書面報告可以動之林淑芬委員也說勞動部不願意聽取民間團體的意見一意孤行成為一個註定失敗的事辦計畫那我在想現在小子化非常的嚴重剛國發"},{"start":6302.474,"end":6308.657,"text":"就是您之前的部長可能沒有親自到場的這個也討論過這件事國發會橫向溝通非常重要嘛請問一個月內可以給我一個書面書面報告等等我會寫一個臨時提案假使我們從公部門開始來做這樣子的事辦計畫您是否願意跟各部門做一個溝通呢"},{"start":6324.575,"end":6350.107,"text":"因為現在很多民間的單位都希望以日來作為這個申請的單位我們現在確實是在規劃來擴大跟過去事辦的範圍又不一樣其實我們希望來擴大規劃的階段但是你是公部門你如果覺得以日為計算並且以申作則並且從公部門先行我想是一個不錯的做法"},{"start":6350.727,"end":6377.509,"text":"當然如果公部門要先來做我們當然不會反對可是我們現在在想的是民間部門這裡面有幾個條件包括裁員包括裁員的部分包括一些排班的做法上面怎麼讓勞資雙方其實可以都在一定的可運作的範圍之下這個我們在私底下溝通是當然謝謝 朝委謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":6384.271,"end":6390.697,"text":"接下來我們請王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後 我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好"},{"start":6410.34,"end":6427.962,"text":"副審計長您好我想就教您我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制"},{"start":6429.278,"end":6431.06,"text":"得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定"},{"start":6443.946,"end":6467.222,"text":"要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任那刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額"},{"start":6469.924,"end":6488.705,"text":"另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定有沒有你進行認定的 有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方 有嘛對不對另外跟委員特別報告就是說"},{"start":6490.387,"end":6508.826,"text":"我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制"},{"start":6509.446,"end":6529.669,"text":"但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們課則機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月"},{"start":6530.269,"end":6554.646,"text":"然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎"},{"start":6555.707,"end":6572.68,"text":"還是很多案情非常單純好 那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對"},{"start":6574.212,"end":6587.499,"text":"曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符"},{"start":6588.223,"end":6602.753,"text":"一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小 避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套"},{"start":6605.495,"end":6632.15,"text":"因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定"},{"start":6634.03,"end":6654.659,"text":"你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部的報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的"},{"start":6655.379,"end":6674.781,"text":"那你們就是自己審計部的職權 你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用 該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫 用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高 他就不用剔除 也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列 是不是這樣子"},{"start":6675.782,"end":6691.47,"text":"不是 那個跟委員報告其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛 你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛 你講一個理由出來是 跟委員報告就是我們在給"},{"start":6693.191,"end":6719.133,"text":"勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容其實來來反反這相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候"},{"start":6719.693,"end":6743.914,"text":"你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失"},{"start":6745.015,"end":6752.397,"text":"你們審計部 你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下 關關相護呢委員 這個以這個維法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高 當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬 這合理嗎 這對嗎"},{"start":6771.957,"end":6789.747,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法"},{"start":6796.322,"end":6803.707,"text":"辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責 去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品"},{"start":6816.445,"end":6832.367,"text":"加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任"},{"start":6833.468,"end":6843.577,"text":"而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道 這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院 你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢?"},{"start":6852.165,"end":6872.302,"text":"根據這個 違法這麼的明確影帶製作 影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途 跟勞工的就業這個會有 在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權 你的審計權現在等於是"},{"start":6874.824,"end":6903.371,"text":"放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任"},{"start":6905.438,"end":6920.519,"text":"你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了"},{"start":6921.645,"end":6936.34,"text":"我們審計部始終如意啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如意連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是"},{"start":6942.586,"end":6957.97,"text":"你們要硬起來 這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的權責啊 那為什麼謝義勇有事許明春沒有事"},{"start":6972.282,"end":6980.848,"text":"對 但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去後跟你們審計長報告今天在委員會裡面"},{"start":6987.373,"end":6993.777,"text":"我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除 該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢 好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後 又不追繳還要用公務的基金 然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好 你先請回 接下來我要問這個勞動部部長"},{"start":7014.758,"end":7033.43,"text":"部長同樣的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計我已經要求他們一定要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列"},{"start":7039.656,"end":7061.337,"text":"我在問你的立場 部長不要閃躲 你在外面去講話的時候 演講的時候 慷慨激昂 民主側翼來到委員會的時候 要你表態的時候 你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲 我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定你勞動部有自己的態度啊"},{"start":7062.137,"end":7084.269,"text":"從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理這個如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳"},{"start":7085.33,"end":7110.271,"text":"你會依法辦理這變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項"},{"start":7111.584,"end":7138.453,"text":"而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來"},{"start":7140.014,"end":7163.573,"text":"第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項"},{"start":7166.124,"end":7194.862,"text":"那還有什麼呢?你有補助經營就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有有補助公部門擴大經營計畫嗎?有有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本"},{"start":7195.933,"end":7211.983,"text":"因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因應關稅不只過大它的業別也不同它這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億"},{"start":7222.489,"end":7243.656,"text":"你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救老基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊"},{"start":7244.551,"end":7257.177,"text":"沒有假的為什麼是假的?一百五十億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比他多這就假的跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況"},{"start":7259.818,"end":7274.17,"text":"所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有 其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向 現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎 還沒有定案嗎"},{"start":7276.38,"end":7286.727,"text":"因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7307.282,"end":7330.445,"text":"呃不不只是不會這個要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北"},{"start":7330.765,"end":7335.289,"text":"我知道 現在不管 你要安勞工的心所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼"},{"start":7359.369,"end":7386.869,"text":"所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕"},{"start":7388.154,"end":7412.874,"text":"所以還是從救安基金來嗎 救安跟救保對 那你的救安基金 那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你 因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬 你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬 大家都希望 部長 你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把他追繳回來 讓救安基金更充實"},{"start":7413.795,"end":7440.724,"text":"跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長那我們更正一下洪孟楷委員執行往我們休息十分鐘那要上洗手間的自行前往來繼續我們請邱政經委員質詢"},{"start":7451.583,"end":7471.929,"text":"主席好我們請部長部長請部長好我請問你你上次在這裡說育嬰停留領不到是口誤對不對"},{"start":7474.398,"end":7495.044,"text":"但是產檢家、陪產檢家確實是有被刪減馬上又補了另外一個謠言就包含你在那天在板橋大罷免宣講的造謠會場講得慷慨激昂你能不能重複再講一次總算對新手爸媽會有什麼影響就是產檢家跟陪產檢家是有被砍"},{"start":7496.509,"end":7525.142,"text":"這不是謠言 這不是謠言 這是真的所以這個預算編在哪裡這個編在這個我們勞動平等勞動條件集就會平等的相關的預算裡面那今年編多少 編多少錢8500萬好 那講補助費有三減還是凍結有凍結有三減也有凍結哪一筆沒有三也沒凍結哪委員有哪一筆啊 你講"},{"start":7526.741,"end":7551.219,"text":"委員 三減被刪了八百 凍結應該凍了一千九 大概兩千我看到這邊資料怎麼只有六百咧你的資料不是很正確三減 院會三減的部分是啥兩千一百八十五三減 三減了八百凍結凍了將近兩千所以一定會影響到賠產減價相關的薪資補貼這是為什麼會影響到新手爸媽的權利的原因"},{"start":7557.202,"end":7569.648,"text":"所以我們勞動條件及就業平等師業務一共編了9714萬元那我這邊資料是你是講統三的部分嗎就是這一項裡面被刪了800萬跟被凍結了2000萬左右但是裡面有8500多萬就是用在產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補貼所以一定會影響到的"},{"start":7589.454,"end":7599.457,"text":"所以影響多少 這樣影響會多少在下半年我們相關的這些津貼的合法商一定會影響到的在下半年 那前半年不會"},{"start":7604.096,"end":7631.853,"text":"我們其實當然希望都不要影響到新手爸媽的權益但是很遺憾的是就是會影響到你們有為這個事情提出來了嗎有沒有提出這個意見你們的意見我們在之前其實就已經要提出來說這筆預算是關乎新手爸媽的權益可是現在就是會影響到了所以我沒有在造謠這是真的會發生的事情那你趕快提出來啊"},{"start":7635.032,"end":7651.287,"text":"你不要在外面講嘛那你是不是可以馬上我們不是只有在外面講我們說我們提出復議可是復議被否定你不能做追加嗎所以那時候我們在委員會行政院提出復議可是很遺憾復議被否決不是我是說你為什麼不在委員會來提"},{"start":7652.591,"end":7665.897,"text":"因為這個是一個整體的影響所以當時行政院是提出複議的方式但複議被否決啦我們希望透過複議能夠爭取這些相關的預算能夠再有多討論跟審議的機會可是在複議被否決啊那這邊不能提我正要問的你不要再講到院會嘛這是一個整體的你不能 你不能提解凍嗎"},{"start":7676.641,"end":7699.742,"text":"所以我們要說第一個確實六個山洞是有影響的第二個是我們也想要解決問題那你應該在這邊提出副意你如果有這個問題你是不是現在要提出來我們當然希望跟各政黨能夠再做一些討論如果你真的是為了我們年輕人著想那你為什麼現在不趕快做這件事情"},{"start":7700.715,"end":7709.204,"text":"我們是為了年輕人才好所以編列這個預算所以不希望這個預算當時被這樣煽動所以你被這樣影響年輕人你要怎麼去處理這個問題就一直喊就好我們沒有喊所以當時提出的副議啊你要不要做嘛我們提出了副議但副議沒有要提出來什麼時候要提出來嘛"},{"start":7719.127,"end":7735.774,"text":"你不要講婦嬰婦嬰已經否決了對不對婦嬰否決就是讓人遺憾的事情那你現在咧現在咧我們是不是有講過你如果有自在難行你是不是可以提出來是所以我們提出婦嬰什麼時候你講那個廢話還在婦嬰現在廢話就沒婦嬰就已經結束了還在還在要繞回去怎麼可能呢你還在還要繞回去還硬喔"},{"start":7747.236,"end":7757.516,"text":"委員這不是硬喔那你現在怎麼處理嘛我們當然可以我們接下來可以大家再做跟朝野各界來做討論你可以提出來啊叫你提出來什麼時候要提出來嘛"},{"start":7758.988,"end":7781.169,"text":"我們這個相關的案子 我們會跟行政院來討論一定要提上面 你自己不會提 討論就對了沒有一次討論不提那等上面指示 你們可以講才講是嗎那等大罷免結束之後 你們再來為年輕人來著想是嗎還是這個事情你要來利用一直燒到大罷免 結束我們正是為年輕人著想 所以當時才不需要你如果真的是想要處理事情"},{"start":7784.211,"end":7804.278,"text":"這個三點跟凍結是事實事實我現在沒有說不是事實這個三點跟凍結是事實年輕人心想辦法的權益被影響是事實你要不要提出來解要不要提出來解嘛所以當時為什麼我要提出來解你就閉嘴那麼我現在問你的是你現在什麼時候要提出來"},{"start":7807.304,"end":7818.05,"text":"我們會找適當時機會來提相關還可以再做的做法只是我們必須表達確實這個刪減跟凍結就是事實好那我現在問你那你盡快好不好那我們問審計部一下救援好救援基金裡面7224萬元用途不符本來就是用途不符為什麼要給我們的報告改成關聯性不高"},{"start":7837.411,"end":7865.963,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們跟審計部發的審核通知跟勞動部的歷次的申付其實這兩個用詞都有在用為什麼要臨時蓋嗎沒有我們只是把它文字再重新整理所以是你的意思沒有因為我們內部在校對的時候就覺得跟所以你認為這個說法比較正確沒有就是我們等於是大家一個比較雙方都可以共同認同的說法你113年底給財政委員會的報告也是且用途不符"},{"start":7866.553,"end":7887.393,"text":"那這一次是誰叫你改的沒有這個原來我們就就內部在校對就做這樣的處理那個好用途不符就是用途不符改幾個字不反我用的事實會改變嗎不會那現在就是欲蓋彌彰嘛對不對把事實呈現給大眾有那麼難嗎"},{"start":7889.093,"end":7907.55,"text":"我們從這個案子我們調查跟揭露還有移送檢調在後續偵辦還有呈報監察院的我們都是按照我們查核發現的證據完整呈現給相關的單位我們沒有任何掩飾那救援基金濫用的部分為什麼你用檢列不是用剔除"},{"start":7908.533,"end":7925.917,"text":"其實公文包因為現在113年度他的決算已經編我們現在在審決算所以這個追討手段可以用剔除直接進入強制執行嘛檢列腳褲是由財政部追討那如果只做檢列就是財務審計做個樣子而已嘛"},{"start":7929.62,"end":7943.559,"text":"這個兩個 顧委員報告我們其實修正決算7224萬餘元修正這個都要增列其他應收款這個事後都還是要追蹤腳褲的那實際動作呢 你要怎麼做"},{"start":7944.42,"end":7961.959,"text":"後續一樣這裡面其中有包括有涉及個人財務責任部分我們還是會追究你們怎麼追究一樣就是等判刑有一部分涉及財務責任有送了嗎那個部分移送法辦的部分判決確定我們還是會追究個人的財務責任"},{"start":7963.18,"end":7988.14,"text":"好 那你這個要多久這個司法判決這個部分我們比較不容易掌握了因為現在以那個北分署的案子現在目前是甄決起訴嘛所以可能在法院那邊處理所以這個部分我們就會靜待司法判決確定我們會後都會繼續追蹤好 那你看"},{"start":7990.749,"end":8012.322,"text":"進度喔 我想你大概每個月跟我們報告可以嗎我們盡量啦 因為這個恐怕因為涉及這個根本沒辦法 這包括我們移送給檢調部份就涉及司法行政責任部份另外一部份是監察院在調查中你已經送了沒有還沒送這兩個都送了已經送了是不是都送了那我再請教部長你發新聞稿說"},{"start":8019.634,"end":8028.13,"text":"編公務預算要把許民春演唱會還有他拍沙龍照這些不法挪用的錢補回來對吧補回基金嗎你有講過嗎"},{"start":8032.639,"end":8053.17,"text":"我們說的是說如果要我的我的說法是如果要跟個人來追究決策者的責任的話我們會配合檢調跟司法局追討你在基金裡面拿出來的錢怎麼補呃現在按照審計部給我們的這個審核的通知是要我們修正簡列追呃"},{"start":8055.379,"end":8079.605,"text":"修正減劣追回那按照修正減劣追回的話他的其實意思是他不應該用在救安基金但是應該是用在公務預算裡面所以在過去相關的判定裡面在還沒有公務預算的時候他就已經可以用掉了嘛那你現在用公務預算去補對不對你的意思是這樣嗎這個是過去如果被判定修正減劣追回的話的做法之一"},{"start":8081.516,"end":8096.199,"text":"他只是減劣嘛 那你現在我的意思是說你是不是要準備用公務預算去把它補回來這個是做法 只一旦具體的做法我們還可以跟審計部跟主計處再來討論因為審計部劣 減劣就是認定這個動之不合規定我們副審計長 我這樣講有錯嗎減劣就是認定動之不合規定嘛 對不對"},{"start":8113.527,"end":8142.037,"text":"好那你現在說那你現在要怎麼樣用怎麼樣用納稅人的錢去補回來的我還是要跟委員說明勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來辦理那審計部判定的就是修正減劣跟追回所以過去在這做法上面所以這樣是合法就對了這樣是合法就對了哪一個事情是合法就用公務預算補就是對的"},{"start":8144.211,"end":8151.687,"text":"過去在如果被做這些相關的判定的話編列公務預算來規定是做法之一"},{"start":8154.025,"end":8173.253,"text":"那如果這樣子的話我們用納稅人的錢來去補這筆錢你認為合理嗎所以我剛才跟委員說明具體的做法當然我們還願意跟行政院跟審議部來做討論可是確實當時在新聞稿裡面寫說編列公務預算來歸電這是過去被判定相關的類型的時候他的做法之一"},{"start":8174.076,"end":8192.201,"text":"好 我希望你們這個部分一定要給我們國人一個好交代把它講清楚 絕對不能說如果有違法的部分你們一定要依法來追究 來做處理如果有違法的部分 尤其如果是司法判決的話我們當然會依照司法判決來追究好 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請盧縣議委員質詢"},{"start":8207.688,"end":8208.689,"text":"主席有請部長部長早我今天就按基金的那個管理設置就是委員會這個設置我想詢問幾個問題就是說它現在這29人是如何產生的"},{"start":8231.02,"end":8249.555,"text":"這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體、雇主團體、資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過"},{"start":8253.388,"end":8279.889,"text":"我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎"},{"start":8283.382,"end":8312.148,"text":"主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎"},{"start":8313.371,"end":8340.021,"text":"對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個七千多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢"},{"start":8342.15,"end":8364.811,"text":"跟路人說明 我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品 可以辦演唱會這些事情在你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎"},{"start":8365.992,"end":8381.206,"text":"29個人都沒有一個人來質疑過嗎所以我們覺得其實在這個包括在會議的資料上面或者是其實相關的審議的過程裡面這也是為什麼我們定定審議我們接下來定定審議要點那來協助委員們然後做更強化的把關"},{"start":8381.886,"end":8398.212,"text":"那謝業榮這個案件如果你要怎麼來預防如果按照我們這些委員會這個這個層級的話跟路人說明我們其實接下來會在致用原則上面直接就明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用"},{"start":8398.792,"end":8416.929,"text":"對我有看到你的管理面什麼資訊公開面這些那在用途面我剛剛講的是在用途面我們會來訂定基金的資用原則所以在資用原則上面我們希望就直接就把包括大家現在很詬病的禮品的採購或者是跟一些跟"},{"start":8418.015,"end":8440.934,"text":"比方說大家最詬病的是那個軌道燈的使用直接在這個適用原則上面就直接規定以後就是直接禁止的這甚至都不用進到委員會裡面我看到你們今天開了兩次會那我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是說督促嗎當然其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面的時候"},{"start":8441.374,"end":8469.446,"text":"就已經是用新的強化把關的機制在運作包括提供資訊包括相關的審議了我有幾個建議就是說你可能勞動發展署這邊你的牽涉的議題非常的廣非常的複雜還可能牽涉到其他機關所以我是覺得說你們是不是應該也要分組像我們之前在我們原轉會好了就是我們之前蔡英文總統的那個原轉會他會有分教育組有分土地組有分什麼組"},{"start":8470.186,"end":8496.863,"text":"所以當然我講老公的問題當然有很多種那29個人裡面是不是可以去分組把工作來消化不然那麼多資料給大家可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎你有時間去消化這些資料嗎所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化個別來討論這個所謂的層層負責或者說每一件事情來去看它的是不是符合"},{"start":8497.443,"end":8519.839,"text":"所謂的法規所以我是覺得應該是要這樣不是是虛設一個29人在那裡可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道有人就像你上面投影片上面寫的我們從原本是5000萬以上會納入內控現在其實已經擴大到2000萬以上而且我們還會設定一個外部的這個外積的集合的機制這個部分是現在5000萬變2000萬是內控"},{"start":8522.341,"end":8533.67,"text":"可是我們還會設定一個外部的集合由法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定大家特別關心的議題上面直接做集合這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體的做法"},{"start":8534.301,"end":8552.949,"text":"那我看到對啊 那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度因為會更多 會更多量對不對 本來以前是2000萬以上嘛現在是2000萬以上嘛所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題"},{"start":8556.166,"end":8574.798,"text":"最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是"},{"start":8576.099,"end":8589.659,"text":"勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的"},{"start":8590.74,"end":8607.616,"text":"所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有有針對青年人的也有執訓中心"},{"start":8608.797,"end":8621.654,"text":"原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面"},{"start":8622.682,"end":8646.388,"text":"跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料"},{"start":8647.788,"end":8661.126,"text":"或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的"},{"start":8662.868,"end":8688.17,"text":"所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PTC上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央"},{"start":8689.251,"end":8699.417,"text":"補助的就業的資源 我們怎麼樣來做準 這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好 那我就期待 謝謝謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長來 我們接一系請黃孟愷委員質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請我們審計部副審計長"},{"start":8723.019,"end":8738.974,"text":"我剛剛聽了五位委員的質詢啊勞動部現在就是全部都推給審計啊因為審計說認定之前這救援基金7000多萬的使用是可以認定是修正簡列不是剔除"},{"start":8739.594,"end":8766.457,"text":"所以說勞動部就好像領到了聖旨一樣他就沒有去追討他就用公務預算來編列讓外界都覺得是說好像左手補右手公務預算救安基金這是不是都是人民的納稅錢來源是是好所以我為什麼會要針對審計部的部分因為我很重視審計部給我們的資料給我們的報告"},{"start":8768.003,"end":8792.707,"text":"審計的報告我想審計長你也有看過你覺得裡面這樣子的濫用公務預算真的合理嗎大家都是公務員我剛特別看了一下我也就教一下說那內容來我們先看一下審計長請教一下這個是我們大家所關心所謂的這個許民村的演唱會他總共"},{"start":8793.359,"end":8817.019,"text":"花費多少錢300多萬元那300多萬元裡面到底這個演唱會他的製作燈光音響效果舞台用在哪邊有沒有找出來各位報告這個前段部分我們都有移送給監察院是移送給監察院我想請教確認跟你確認嘛是"},{"start":8818.018,"end":8830.387,"text":"那個演唱會我們看到燈光音響舞台包括說舞群表演人員不只許明春一個人唱歌嘛是還有前面還有兩個歌手不是嗎對那那個演出費編在哪邊有沒有編在哪邊 花多少錢"},{"start":8845.856,"end":8864.337,"text":"是不是沒有嘛勞動部他們那時候是就用開口合約而你們的報告裡面寫的開口合約沒有這個項目只有製作影片的項目所以後來就讓他們用直播的方式以及直播完之後剪成7支影片的方式給核銷368萬"},{"start":8867.608,"end":8877.832,"text":"那一支一個直播跟7支影片而這個7支影片還不是新拍的是把直播的畫面剪成7支影片然後來核銷這樣子報了368萬合理嗎"},{"start":8883.427,"end":8907.783,"text":"我們認為不合理不合理所以我因為我們提出的一個審計意見其中就是他運用這個開口契約用這個方式來核銷來處理其實是是不合一般的荒謬嘛是是如果說可以的話那就用公務預算啊為什麼那時候用救安基金就代表是說救安基金感覺比較便宜形式比較可以暗度成倉啊來這是單一個案嗎"},{"start":8911.971,"end":8922.954,"text":"我們再看下一個大家都是公務同仁喔可以看一下這樣子的一個做法如果發生在各自部會上面可能大家都已經被抓去關了來這個是我們審計的報告喔一樣他說什麼他說總共金額有632萬元要製作5支影片"},{"start":8937.22,"end":8953.426,"text":"內容講的是說我要五支影片製作632萬結果他到最後怎麼做他到最後是拍了一支影片之後把影片剪輯成五支短影片交付驗收然後請領632萬來來 沈記長"},{"start":8958.618,"end":8981.019,"text":"哪一個公家機關單位可以這樣子來做標案我標案寫的是我要製作五支影片來投標的廠商也都知道說他要做五支影片結果到最後他驗收的時候是給那個廠商做一支影片然後剪成五支短影片然後就變五支雙胞胎啊 三胞胎 五胞胎啊"},{"start":8982.148,"end":9008.264,"text":"一支影片變成五支短影片然後就變五支然後就可以有六百多萬的驗收通過這有沒有構成圖利啊我對外的標案講的是說我要拍五支影片所以廠商他可能不敢來因為覺得說六百多萬拍五支影片價格有點高我可能成本不合沒有來結果真的來投標的我不知道這廠商是誰但我要求應該要查"},{"start":9009.604,"end":9029.216,"text":"廠商來他就講是說我來投標那可能其他人會覺得說奇怪你怎麼會來投標就原來是因為到最後驗收很簡單啊驗收是我只要拍一支剪成五支短影片part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4 part 5結果承辦人員就讓他驗收變五支影片"},{"start":9031.88,"end":9042.527,"text":"陳記長這是單一個案嗎我們所有的查核發現其實就跟提供給委員的資料一樣這是單一個案嗎應該類同的狀況應該蠻多的應該蠻多的沒有錯你的報告我客氣了112年勞動節主題影片是這樣子辦你的報告裡面113年勞動節影片也是這樣辦而且更貴"},{"start":9062.537,"end":9079.388,"text":"831萬結果要做兩支影片兩支影片他變成是拍了一支影片叫搬家片結果分上下集然後再拍一個30秒的短片沒有重拍喔也是一樣把那個搬家片變30秒短片結果請領了831萬"},{"start":9085.722,"end":9103.95,"text":"這更簡單了他連剪輯都懶了三支影片兩支長片一支短片831萬就他拍一支分上下集然後再剪一個精華30秒出來就可以核銷578萬跟96萬天體下有那麼好康念好康報大家知道吧"},{"start":9112.674,"end":9136.167,"text":"有多少青年朋友苦哈哈創業沈機長我再請教知不知道外面行情剪一支影片多少錢欸...不瞭解有沒有去問沒有沒有因為我們只是個案查核就裡面不合理的部分我們蒐集證據把他把他揭露出來會不會覺得真的非常離譜我看到你們報告我都覺得非常離譜啊800多萬500多萬"},{"start":9139.184,"end":9158.95,"text":"是這樣子濫用人民的納稅錢這樣濫花而且更不要講過去三年就業安定基金其實是虧損的三年虧了兩百億結果我們的勞動部用這樣子的花錢的方式啊為什麼我要問你是因為勞動部長屁屁啊啦"},{"start":9160.151,"end":9183.437,"text":"他從剛剛到現在只要講的都是講是說依法行政 依法辦理審計部告訴我們修正簡略不用剔除所以我們就編公務預算我們拿2025年的公務預算來去補2021年2022年2023年上下起手出去的預算上下交鄉賊啊 左手給右手啊"},{"start":9184.842,"end":9209.228,"text":"時空旅人之期啊2025年的預算來補2021年已經出去的預算然後他的核銷檢驗是這樣子一個狀況驗收是這樣的狀況合理嗎那你這樣子我們還要還要堅持講的是這個叫做什麼預算不相關然後不是相符"},{"start":9211.394,"end":9238.194,"text":"還要在昨天你們送來的報告之後然後之後再換報告 換字眼然後還要看你剛剛的這個辯解還是講是說沒有啦 都有用啦文字都有用啦我光點這三點都是你報告裡面的內容這三點我覺得如果說是做工程的話早就被抓去關了你怎麼會發包一個標案講的是要做到這個我要蓋五間房子"},{"start":9239.464,"end":9265.76,"text":"結果變成是我蓋一間房子五層樓就驗收就通過會受害嗎公務員報告因為他這個案子齁他剛剛前面我也跟其他委員報告因為這個案子他的處理方式他是用開口契約啦齁那我們覺得這個開口契約裡面其實他開口契約可以變成是我們公務預算濫用的理由跟藉口嗎當然不行當然不行啊"},{"start":9267.355,"end":9295.391,"text":"因為開口契約的所以我們審計單位現在為什麼一直跟您堅持在講說審計單位出來報告很重要你們認定到什麼程度行政部門就可以拿著上方保健如果你們認定就是他現在只要修正簡列行政部門就上方保健啊我就編預算來補就好啦啊之前的責任是誰哪一個承辦那個承辦怎麼驗收的有沒有圖利的嫌疑"},{"start":9297.216,"end":9303.584,"text":"為什麼廠商就只有這家廠商知道可以這樣驗收其他廠商都沒有辦法我5隻就是5隻沈記長還有沒有再調整的空間還有沒有要再修正的空間"},{"start":9316.463,"end":9337.934,"text":"還有沒有要站在中華民國政府把關預算的空間真的不能濫用我相信有良知的公務同仁聽到我剛剛這樣子解釋這幾個大家可以歡迎大家去看這審計的報告奇聞共賞真的太離譜了就是因為看到那麼離譜的報告出來之後"},{"start":9339.52,"end":9346.666,"text":"你寫出來的狀況才會讓我們看到過去那幾年救安基金被濫用的有多離譜這有送監察院已經呈報監察院你覺得監察院會有效果嗎"},{"start":9360.091,"end":9377.24,"text":"那麼沒信心 對監察院那麼沒信心但我知道 我也說你送給監委嘛 是不是沒有沒有 我們就直接整個案子傳報給監察院那對監察院內部的審查 監察委員有立案調查了嗎立案調查了目前還在調查中目前還在調查中 是不是沈警長"},{"start":9381.175,"end":9396.204,"text":"互相尊重立法部門跟監察部門其實我們都是站在人民的這一面要求督促行政部門我不會又要馬好又要馬不吃草所以救安基金如果當用用在刀口上我不會反對"},{"start":9397.105,"end":9416.55,"text":"但是如果說花這種情況你們都白紙黑字寫出來了然後結果還可以放任行政部門沒有去追討相關的責任而是編列2025年的公務預算去把他給回繳然後就傳過水無痕就沒事了我們會嚴正處理不會傳過水無痕我們一定會依法來處理"},{"start":9422.95,"end":9435.876,"text":"沈機長 本席看你剛剛講嚴正處理 依法處理會是什麼樣的狀況這個案子我還要繼續追希望我們下一次再見面的時候你真的可以給我們一些國人交代跟責任 以上謝謝"},{"start":9469.527,"end":9469.587,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":10237.199,"end":10240.762,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 請黃振旭委員質詢謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長"},{"start":10256.587,"end":10281.377,"text":"王委員好部長好今天接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就基金後續的處置那早上大家也都有聽到包括我們審計部還有主席總書的說明那當然部長也做了非常完整的說明不過開始之前還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長我們也知道自從這個川普"},{"start":10282.998,"end":10303.576,"text":"總統他提出了相關的這個關稅的處理模式以後相信對所有的國家造成的影響都非常的大那在這邊也知道說勞動部也提出了四大因應的措施來處理那這個四大因應措施裡面我想部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明"},{"start":10304.136,"end":10324.911,"text":"那這邊想要多了解一下部長當初有提到所有主動訪視的部分那我就依序來請部長再針對於勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關如果產業受到影響的無薪假還有失業的情形的掌握狀況第二點部分就是哪些產業適合"},{"start":10326.472,"end":10346.834,"text":"趕快來主動出擊的我相信產業的這個屬性不同他所造成的衝擊也是不太一樣那另外就是大家很關心如果事業單位他領取了相關的補助後來他又發生了這個違反相關的這些要求的話那勞動部有沒有哪些"},{"start":10349.284,"end":10366.305,"text":"好那個跟跟網友說明確實我們其實現在非常非常關注其實可能產業會受到衝擊產業受到衝擊之後後面可能就會是機會受到衝擊所以我們現在會先以我們會先優先是鎖定"},{"start":10369.128,"end":10394.886,"text":"有高的風險會遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業就像之前大家講到包括像機械業 汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的"},{"start":10396.167,"end":10411.814,"text":"跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括發言署下面有很多的分署"},{"start":10412.654,"end":10427.526,"text":"那有些房市我自己接下來也有相關的房市的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來房市那"},{"start":10429.286,"end":10448.365,"text":"所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關"},{"start":10449.065,"end":10464.948,"text":"的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解雇的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了"},{"start":10466.169,"end":10484.815,"text":"我相信部裡面的所有同仁也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於"},{"start":10486.535,"end":10514.756,"text":"這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是同樣維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話"},{"start":10515.436,"end":10533.785,"text":"那勞動部應該要如何來救責好呃跟萬元說明吼呃勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的做規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列"},{"start":10535.933,"end":10560.337,"text":"明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是"},{"start":10565.518,"end":10592.127,"text":"去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果"},{"start":10595.005,"end":10607.593,"text":"這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任"},{"start":10608.561,"end":10637.774,"text":"好 那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好"},{"start":10638.274,"end":10658.477,"text":"那依據目前預告的草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性"},{"start":10659.318,"end":10682.109,"text":"那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何"},{"start":10684.196,"end":10703.756,"text":"其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義"},{"start":10705.218,"end":10723.232,"text":"這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在大齡的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們大齡的相關的房置"},{"start":10724.033,"end":10742.628,"text":"那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的 對"},{"start":10743.809,"end":10771.491,"text":"是 所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩部裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立"},{"start":10772.472,"end":10782.073,"text":"可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性評估部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合"},{"start":10783.507,"end":10807.957,"text":"把這功能給整合有些部分包括屬於性騷擾性評那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能的整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能和對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了是的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多是如果好的方法的話可以減少最後們的困擾"},{"start":10808.837,"end":10831.122,"text":"那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前"},{"start":10832.262,"end":10849.601,"text":"掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中"},{"start":10850.526,"end":10865.887,"text":"那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的"},{"start":10867.048,"end":10891.975,"text":"那相關的配套當然我們認為現在衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是"},{"start":10892.475,"end":10910.816,"text":"好因為接下來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的應應現在的這些"},{"start":10914.938,"end":10936.963,"text":"請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分的有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是台灣我們台方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達"},{"start":10938.26,"end":10962.649,"text":"那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝"},{"start":10965.969,"end":10971.513,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝部長那等一下在蘇清泉委員執行完畢後我們處理臨時提案我們下一位請蘇昭偉先答 請謝謝 謝謝主席我請我們"},{"start":10995.8,"end":10997.602,"text":"副審計長跟副主計長主計長"},{"start":11012.975,"end":11035.254,"text":"主席總署嘛 你是行政院的是副審理長 你是鑑產院的鑑產院的今天這個日子在說鑑產院 鑑產院你就是鑑產院的 你都這樣撒來撒去好 我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處裡面的 主席總署裡面的角色是什麼"},{"start":11036.947,"end":11055.607,"text":"跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些新奇"},{"start":11056.948,"end":11080.538,"text":"計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎"},{"start":11085.046,"end":11105.732,"text":"那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編 這樣嘛後來大家上行政院 院會後通過 再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的有一些核酸的那你們在報回去之後 請問你們是怎麼分配"},{"start":11106.872,"end":11119.987,"text":"我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂"},{"start":11120.883,"end":11121.563,"text":"所以你就卡在哪裡?"},{"start":11148.573,"end":11175.27,"text":"因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說桶山下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦"},{"start":11177.903,"end":11206.08,"text":"現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛譬如有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難"},{"start":11207.142,"end":11215.049,"text":"所以現在已經四月了 你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定"},{"start":11217.2,"end":11225.786,"text":"所以咧?我要怎麼知道?我一直叫勞動部、衛務部趕快來申請解凍解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛,是不是?要講清楚喔對,就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛"},{"start":11245.399,"end":11254.705,"text":"是刪減的部分所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼補是好那沈济浦你的感受是什麼"},{"start":11256.108,"end":11276.582,"text":"跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行"},{"start":11281.104,"end":11293.988,"text":"從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務收支抽查另外一部分是專案調查"},{"start":11295.649,"end":11306.688,"text":"所以你114年的預算現在呼籲也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁"},{"start":11309.824,"end":11336.73,"text":"跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常透過資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查"},{"start":11338.07,"end":11361.503,"text":"這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaI have no idea"},{"start":11362.279,"end":11389.949,"text":"就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好 了解好 那你們兩個請回吧部長 瑪莉亞"},{"start":11400.263,"end":11428.18,"text":"書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的"},{"start":11429.517,"end":11440.954,"text":"阿你大家又有人搶 你有在搶嗎 我不知道啦搶沒有啦 那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產"},{"start":11442.301,"end":11469.133,"text":"沒有 公務人員是我們的資產國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍職陣 不管綠職陣這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易要讀書讀到要死然後課高考 課特考 課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦"},{"start":11470.854,"end":11497.76,"text":"真的真的所以我們要給他們加油啦給他們打氣因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來"},{"start":11500.996,"end":11513.911,"text":"檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個腎臟腺素在維持我不曉得真的還假的"},{"start":11515.438,"end":11541.717,"text":"好 我問一個 我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢 現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多 有中部的一些譬如說紡織的 或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月"},{"start":11543.07,"end":11546.953,"text":"我現在問說要不要出國三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊"},{"start":11551.891,"end":11571.868,"text":"那換無薪假也罷 領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工 這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔 確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況 這是有的"},{"start":11575.251,"end":11602.267,"text":"那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法"},{"start":11604.017,"end":11617.114,"text":"俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有"},{"start":11620.396,"end":11643.363,"text":"如果有准班休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在"},{"start":11643.843,"end":11668.293,"text":"但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括他的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定對好那我們"},{"start":11669.233,"end":11674.042,"text":"百姓、公民、一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這件事要怎麼回答我是認為像這個是"},{"start":11683.973,"end":11710.373,"text":"再出發的這個是乍臨的 再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要人家賺錢 你是必須要人家賺錢所以一定要換你判斷說他有安若度安福利或是說有中保私囊這個一定要判決你才能幫我去要嘛 對不對 部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人"},{"start":11711.614,"end":11740.203,"text":"包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據那如果朋友把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊"},{"start":11741.65,"end":11747.936,"text":"可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究"},{"start":11749.702,"end":11776.342,"text":"像陳基普講的說 要擔心他判刑 現在都起訴嘛起訴之後 一審 再二審 再三審要不然到底判定 沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面 他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了"},{"start":11777.162,"end":11780.467,"text":"好像有一百萬拿多少已經繳出去了應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊兩萬多塊"},{"start":11785.413,"end":11807.131,"text":"所以那個前部長 前前部長跟盧派借訂我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追前我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不管是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以那個審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦"},{"start":11816.175,"end":11822.659,"text":"啊不過汪洋普老你往後的要更嚴格我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":11846.135,"end":11847.479,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝蘇卿委員的發言 謝謝部長的答案"},{"start":11862.891,"end":11892.16,"text":"我們現在處理臨時提案總共有四案那請一件一件先宣讀一件一件還是一併一併一併先讀第一案請省紀長於二周內提供就業安定基金109至113年度相關審核之資料含省紀部及原編造決算之機關間往來含文集附件與查核報告及審核報告之內容及出處提案人委員陳金輝蘇清泉邱振軍第二案"},{"start":11892.86,"end":11917.442,"text":"要求勞動部需於一個月內啟動辦理完善之社會對話作業並於各縣市辦理工會法修法意見公聽會並收集各基層勞工新生事後並於半年內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝 蘇清泉 廖偉祥 邱振軍 王育敏 盧憲一第三案"},{"start":11919.084,"end":11931.958,"text":"勞動部應積極向行政院人事總處提出要求進一步將公部門單位均先行納入事辦計畫與所有公部門事辦彈性育嬰假制度原要求勞動部於三個月內協調有關單位完成公部門機構納入事辦計畫之規劃"},{"start":11938.064,"end":11964.582,"text":"提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、邱振軍第四案要求勞動部應立即啟動行政調查查明相關責任人並依據公務員懲戒法將涉案人員移送懲戒法庭處理此外應主動將案件及相關物證移送檢查機關偵辦勞動部應於一個月內完成上述事項並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告辦理情形"},{"start":11965.262,"end":11975.652,"text":"以确保就业安定基金真正用于保障国人就业权益落实基金设置宗旨提案人委员陈金辉、邱振军、苏清泉宣读完毕"},{"start":11978.12,"end":11993.957,"text":"好那我們一件一件處理請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見報告主席跟各位委員第一案跟審計部有關倒數第四行建議文字修正一下第一個原請審計長建議改成原請審計部"},{"start":11997.495,"end":12019.15,"text":"於兩週內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核通知那個資料建議用我們法定的用語就是叫做相關審核通知那下面文字那個括號建議都劃掉因為審核通知裡面附件都包括這些資料都有"},{"start":12019.73,"end":12038.262,"text":"然後括號結束那個與查核報告這個留著然後後面那個及審核報告之內容及出處因為審核報告像113年度都還沒有編所以在兩個禮拜內是不可能提供的所以建議把那個及審核報告之內容及出處建議文資把它刪除謝謝"},{"start":12046.299,"end":12067.234,"text":"因為省政府剛剛講到這個括號裡面的內容全部都已經有包含了所以也沒有刪的必要吧就是文字上我們是這樣建議啦那尊重委員最後的決議我覺得可以保留括號裡面的內容那其他的照您的修改好嗎"},{"start":12079.097,"end":12088.421,"text":"如果委員這邊的文字因為我們是建議這樣調整啦因為整個審核通知裡面包括附件裡面其實內容都會附在裡面這個我們來配合處理好 謝謝"},{"start":12104.864,"end":12112.309,"text":"你後面改的地方原請審計部於兩週內提供階安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核通知審計部及"},{"start":12128.533,"end":12139.782,"text":"我看原編造之決算機就不用寫了就是及相關機關間之往來含文及附件與審核報告與查核報告好的 這樣可以 謝謝是好那第一案就修改後通過那第二案"},{"start":12159.738,"end":12163.58,"text":"這個明天會有公聽會明天是廠廠公會不是嗎公會"},{"start":12187.681,"end":12208.214,"text":"跟委員報告好有關參訪工會的修法我們是依據憲法法庭判決第七號要兩年內要在母法上去明定我們當然也參考憲法法庭的判決也認為是我們合理的去限制參訪工會成立要求一定的要有人事跟會計獨立避免牢牢相爭"},{"start":12209.295,"end":12232.778,"text":"然后造成很多的会晤架可能造成更多的劳方的冲突也认为这样的一个规范是合理的当初我们在订的时候也是要开过对话也召开邀请的劳资双方都有来表达意见大致的方向也都朝向说把它移到魔法这个方向所以修正条文已经送到委员会来了"},{"start":12233.999,"end":12259.139,"text":"是不是這個部分我們這樣的一個提案呢能不能只留下在收集基層勞工的意見我覺得可以我們再來收集一下勞工的意見那至於社會對話的話再把勞資雙方再找來再來討論這個部分恐怕因為資方對於工會的成立他一定有一點他們本身的一些看法因為有會務假的問題然後再把勞資雙方再找來對話"},{"start":12261.38,"end":12277.078,"text":"恐怕對這樣那個修法可能會找人也比較沒有這樣那個需要所以可不可以就留下最後那句話就是收集各基層勞工新生然後前面那一段啟動辦理完善之社會都要作業並於各縣市辦理修法意見公聽會這裡可不可以就不要放"},{"start":12280.008,"end":12294.916,"text":"這個是蘇昭偉還有邱政軍委員以及我都有接到一些團體的陳情啊他們是希望跟你們對話不是跟資方對話所以"},{"start":12297.34,"end":12315.417,"text":"對應該是說還是他們是還是希望可以表達他們的聲音對那個跟陳成為說明因為如果是所謂辦理社會對話就會一定是這個所謂社會對話就會有資方啊"},{"start":12320.337,"end":12338.402,"text":"我覺得都可以吧因為我們只要邀請來讓大家有意見可以表達那當然我們沒有預設立場因為大家聽一下大家的意見綜合起來再做決定可不可以我們我們可不可以讓我們其實可以來就是說收集勞資雙方意見也可以你要怎麼收集"},{"start":12344.711,"end":12365.64,"text":"我們其實用各種方式來收集因為我想跟不是啊 那這個公聽會也是一種嘛因為明天就會有公聽會嘛對啊 明天不是就要開了嗎明天就有公聽會 其實就會來嘛對啊 那如果明天辦完公聽會就是一種收集的話那當然 這我們也OK啊你們有一間嗎明天是未還辦的"},{"start":12376.221,"end":12396.318,"text":"其實這個議題我覺得比較是你們跟工會的溝通到底有沒有真的進行相關的溝通因為當時知道說委員會要排這個案子的時候的確很多的就是地方的這個工會團體他們是很緊張的因為他們覺得長期以來都是種"},{"start":12397.259,"end":12413.933,"text":"就是如果說他有各地分會那大概都是總公司那邊的公會代表但是他代表不代表他們地方的一些聲音跟意見所以這個議題我相信你們也理解那這個事情其實不用那麼的匆忙你們那時候想要很快這個委員會就是過"},{"start":12415.114,"end":12440.445,"text":"但是這件事情有那麼急嗎?我個人覺得其實沒有到那麼急你其實可以再多收集這個大家的意見因為基本上工會的成立是希望可以達到多元聲音的表達而不是變成制約成一種聲音或者是說這個工會他可能就是因為這個資方他比較是去跟他溝通然後就會變成跟資方的立場很靠近但是其他比較遠的在地的"},{"start":12440.825,"end":12466.998,"text":"他們那些員工的心聲反而下情都沒有上達我想這個部長你自己過去跟勞工團體有些接觸重點是在這邊那怎麼避免防止這樣的情況發生跟網友說明第一個確實這一題在工會界是有不太一樣的看法就是正反都有那正反的意見其實我們也都有掌握"},{"start":12468.018,"end":12480.352,"text":"那就失效上面的话确实有一些时间的压力因为这个修法其实是来自于宪法法庭的判决宪法法庭是判两年内他的那个办法会失效"},{"start":12481.809,"end":12503.311,"text":"所以為什麼其實是有一點時間壓力的點是來自於憲法法庭他應該是5月17號5月17號會失效所以我們為什麼在時間點上其實是希望能夠在這段時間裡面趕快來處理這些相關的問題的原因是這樣子那當然也很謝謝委員會明天辦相關的公聽會那讓大家的意見可以併成"},{"start":12504.452,"end":12523.583,"text":"那可是我的意思是說其實各界的意見都清楚那我們也可以看明天的這個公聽會的狀況可是我們自己覺得時間上不宜再多拖因為多拖的狀況下可能會讓這部分變成是沒有一個相關的規範然後可能會衍生後續的一些問題"},{"start":12526.707,"end":12550.912,"text":"主要時間點的原因是在這件事情上面因為修法法庭是判是5月17號相關的他的這個原本的這個辦法就會失效對是但是我們現在就希望是能在在之前但是因為這個修法本身其實他就是修一個公衛法六之一的一個單條對"},{"start":12560.525,"end":12568.774,"text":"但是我說他如果出現了一個空窗那空窗可能衍生的問題會更不好處理因為他等於相關規範消失"},{"start":12574.056,"end":12590.943,"text":"其實這個事情是需要有一定的規範但內容怎樣我們可以討論可是我說內容可以討論可是時間點上我們真的認為是有時間的緊迫性的今天這個臨時提案這個你要怎麼改"},{"start":12593.499,"end":12615.055,"text":"我們可不可以改成說特決議要求勞動部在一個月收集各勞資或者不要寫勞資啦就是收集各界勞工意見然後後面半年內向本委員提交訴明報告應該沒有問題吧對不對好不好在那一邊好了就是最後"},{"start":12625.933,"end":12645.043,"text":"可是這是對但是這是這是原本的文字啊你你剛不是說到5月17你沒有時間壓力現在又半年後才提交半年是上面所以如果改成一個月我們也可以啊就是最後一句話改成一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告"},{"start":12646.802,"end":12672.415,"text":"如果我們衛環委員會辦一場那你們也就辦一場這樣子是你們做得到的嗎我們可以辦啊可以啊好那就各各辦一場吧衛環委明年辦嘛對不對那我們也可以辦一場這樣子你是勞動部自己辦就對了對啊可以好那現在陳委員就照他這樣修正可以嗎可以就一人辦一場好"},{"start":12673.032,"end":12678.278,"text":"好 謝謝那第二案就照修改後通過第三案劉建國召委你有意見嗎"},{"start":12688.818,"end":12703.479,"text":"來 第三案第三案的部分在這邊跟委員報告那陳委員 蘇委員 邱委員提案的是希望說把所有的公部門都來做一個彈性運營流行的事辦的"},{"start":12705.301,"end":12726.601,"text":"計劃但是這邊的話因為是所有的公部門都要那先先納進來示範那在三個月裡面的話要來協調有關單位並且重點是說要完成啊那這個部分的話因為涉及到有其他的單位那有軍公教那這個這個運營流執庭心有涉及到軍公教的都有適用這個法令"},{"start":12727.262,"end":12753.017,"text":"那所以這個部分要到能夠完成這件事情可能是不是有其他單位有沒有我們現在想不到的問題或是會遇到的困難所以是不是建議這樣子可以在三個月內協調改成會商有關單位然後研議完成改成研議就這兩個有四個字就是協調改成會商有關單位那再來研議公部門機構納入示範計畫的規劃"},{"start":12757.335,"end":12784.346,"text":"好可以可以不過這個就是部長一直想做的事情嗎是所以這個這個村委員提的這個提案的概念上面我是贊成的只是就是就時間點上能不能夠在所謂三個月內去完成去協調全台灣這麼多的公部門這個事情我們覺得可能不一定可以可是甚至我們其實想做的不只是公部門啊我們甚至是往想往私部門去啊對啊好那就照"},{"start":12785.973,"end":12787.754,"text":"照你們這樣修改謝謝我請問一下部長這個預運價是一般是半年低流停對 半年那你這個好像要改成好像可以單天請這樣一天請這樣不知道要不要再過六年"},{"start":12810.566,"end":12838.095,"text":"也不是不是就是說總共的現在大家的倡議的概念是total還是是6個月可是可能可以拿部分的這個部分的流停他變成可以單天來去做請領的做法但還是在這個原本的6個月還是在183天內對他不是在外加的這樣子對概念是這樣子好那第三案就修正後通過來最後一案來"},{"start":12841.946,"end":12867.832,"text":"第四案主席以及各位委員那關於第四案的部分因為審計部的審查報告也有要本部追究相關責任那同時那那個提案裡面也有提到說監察就是移送懲戒法"},{"start":12868.892,"end":12891.268,"text":"的部分因為按照懲戒法的規定本部對於檢任久之等以下才有辦法直接移送懲戒法院那只要是檢任以上的按照程序我們要移送給監察院那監察院調查認為有違法失職以後他提起彈劾案來移送給那個懲戒法庭"},{"start":12892.108,"end":12916.449,"text":"那監察院已經也立案調查了剛剛部長在答詢時候也有提到那至於說司法偵辦的部分那本部在第一時間檢查新北地檢署跟台北地檢署在偵辦的時候本部已經積極配合偵辦把相關的證券資料都已經提供給新北檢以及那個台北地檢"},{"start":12917.23,"end":12937.156,"text":"那因為新北檢最近針對分屬謝毅榮的部分已經提起公訴了所以呢要求本部把案件跟相關的卷證再移給檢察官來偵辦這部分在實務上我們可能會有困難所以這個提案我們建議可以修正為說"},{"start":12938.676,"end":12952.124,"text":"原此提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦"},{"start":12954.105,"end":12980.366,"text":"那以确保相关违法行为能受到适当法律处置劳动部应于两个月内完成上述事项并向立法院社会福利及卫生环境委员会报告办理情形以确保就业安定基金真正用于保障国人就业痊愈落实基金设置总值以上"},{"start":12982.15,"end":12988.394,"text":"齁 要嚇死啦 你在說什麼 什麼什麼欸 你改改跟提案的 兩分鐘 休息兩分鐘"},{"start":13013.959,"end":13033.52,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13050.265,"end":13050.445,"text":"副市長"},{"start":13078.456,"end":13102.073,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13113.716,"end":13113.996,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13151.755,"end":13163.371,"text":"好啊是在說什麼?這個第四案已經講了"},{"start":13171.738,"end":13189.453,"text":"第四案剛才就是我們的修正意見剛好跟陳經理委員說明一下我們再唸一次好不好我們後面那邊寫原此提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦"},{"start":13191.414,"end":13202.448,"text":"然後後面這個跟懲戒法跟懲罰的部分刪掉然後接上以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置然後勞動部應於兩個月內完成上訴實項這樣子"},{"start":13206.243,"end":13218.686,"text":"好 那就到修正後通過來 臨時提案全部處理完畢我們接下來請陳穎 陳委員 質詢我們中午不休息啊 要吃便當的就吃了"},{"start":13246.553,"end":13248.455,"text":"好那我們請黃秀安委員質詢謝謝主席我們請部長歡迎好"},{"start":13264.619,"end":13284.393,"text":"部長好 今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個"},{"start":13286.474,"end":13303.98,"text":"原本我們用救安基金去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的"},{"start":13305.04,"end":13333.642,"text":"那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合"},{"start":13334.382,"end":13361.536,"text":"這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實保安部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們"},{"start":13362.757,"end":13384.658,"text":"用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點"},{"start":13385.399,"end":13396.668,"text":"那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會做安全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括"},{"start":13400.475,"end":13428.962,"text":"我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多人也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了"},{"start":13430.242,"end":13451.177,"text":"也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的"},{"start":13453.118,"end":13472.213,"text":"未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了"},{"start":13472.813,"end":13493.186,"text":"好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來"},{"start":13496.608,"end":13510.977,"text":"支付 然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看 我沒有唱啦 我有去看啦我覺得說 其實這對勞工來說其實很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌"},{"start":13518.981,"end":13547.214,"text":"這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來"},{"start":13548.494,"end":13575.906,"text":"該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能歡迎我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解"},{"start":13576.466,"end":13596.011,"text":"或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用他就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得"},{"start":13597.011,"end":13614.956,"text":"好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像"},{"start":13616.075,"end":13632.236,"text":"我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的"},{"start":13632.717,"end":13652.192,"text":"可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金他就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分"},{"start":13653.433,"end":13664.151,"text":"好那我想請教就是說呃現在就是說這個呃7224萬好那呃你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎好目前"},{"start":13667.325,"end":13694.367,"text":"我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦"},{"start":13697.248,"end":13719.175,"text":"我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正檢列裡面的話某部分他的要去救安基金追回跟檢列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論"},{"start":13719.755,"end":13739.183,"text":"好好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護"},{"start":13741.844,"end":13769.851,"text":"那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高"},{"start":13770.891,"end":13793.756,"text":"其實是差不多的24小時差不多三千多三千多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事半計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是"},{"start":13794.296,"end":13816.508,"text":"他其實目前設定的主要是針對這些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會在比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照"},{"start":13817.128,"end":13846.446,"text":"或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計畫來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能"},{"start":13847.006,"end":13870.214,"text":"如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年 對多久"},{"start":13875.939,"end":13878.431,"text":"三年三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該"},{"start":13883.1,"end":13911.648,"text":"半年我們就會檢討 半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的 它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求"},{"start":13912.81,"end":13923.974,"text":"好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說他到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝謝謝方委員謝謝部長那接續我們請陳妍陳委員謝謝主席麻煩請部長"},{"start":13948.656,"end":13973.234,"text":"部長好我想先請教一下部會首長跟這個各單位的一級主管事實的輪調這是一種常態那透過這個輪調這樣的一個機制其實是可以減少這個機弊的發生那當然事實有新人的注入新人有新氣象那有時候包袱也少一點"},{"start":13973.854,"end":13993.566,"text":"就像這個當初總統交付任務給部長的時候那這些任務可能就是有些是這個前任的部長們他們沒有辦法處理好的事情所以我想請教部長就是說你覺得這個部長大概任期做幾年比較剛好"},{"start":13998.052,"end":14022.848,"text":"我想我的任期其實是要讓社會或者是整體的政務來做評價我想我問這個其實他沒有一個標準的答案啦我就單純的問說您個人的看法這樣子那你如果不好意思講自己的話那我就再請教那你覺得一級主管呢我覺得都沒有標準答案了"},{"start":14023.45,"end":14030.953,"text":"是都沒有標準答案所以你就3年5年8年10年還是20年我覺得沒有我恐怕都不一定有標準答案"},{"start":14031.479,"end":14060.14,"text":"好那我想有時候也是要看表現對不對好你說沒有標準答案那因為每個人表現不一樣所以那沒有關係那我們就是也可以透過一些數據上的檢視我們來看看好那我想接下來我們就來檢視一下這位任期贏過各部會所有部長以及所有一級主管的資安署署長我們來看一下"},{"start":14062.705,"end":14065.966,"text":"在過去署長就是說你們勞動部有一個這個營造業墜落打擊年的計劃請問有沒有達標"},{"start":14088.613,"end":14094.88,"text":"報告我們最後打幾年的計畫是去年我們希望降30%確實沒有達標好沒有達標好謝謝那這個這個計畫主要的績效指標你剛剛講可以再講一次嗎"},{"start":14104.893,"end":14120.911,"text":"謝謝委員關心 營商業是台灣的痛所以我們希望去年能夠營商業最弱降百分之三十那最後數字是沒有降到百分之三十 只降到百分之十幾而已確實是沒有達到最多減債的標準主要當時主要的精進作為是"},{"start":14124.602,"end":14152.301,"text":"包委員當然除了強力檢查之外我們透過部會合作還有營造團體一些來做促進因為包括公共工程跟民間工程都有大量的工作在進行所以我們不是只有勞檢在做促進的還有希望所有的那個資源都有加入有很多的這個方式並行嘛那我再請教就是說那署長回想這個回頭這樣回想檢討那為什麼沒有達標原因是什麼"},{"start":14154.872,"end":14170.818,"text":"報仁我們發現就是第一個是承攬管理是還是沒有做落實特別是有些業主在交付給營造廠作業的時候業主負安全的責任也相對偏低所以我們其實在去年就開始著手希望修職安法把有關營造業相關的困難"},{"start":14171.798,"end":14190.737,"text":"透過法治制度來做機制上的處置跟處理那這個有關修法的部分也要請委員及各界來給我們支持跟指導我想有效的有用的我們都會支持那你覺得說這個沒有達標的這些原因有沒有跟部署的表現不好或者你自己個人的領導統一有問題有關係呢"},{"start":14195.673,"end":14217.588,"text":"縣委員我們設定目標是大家往前前進沒有達到目標當然是首長負一定的責任但是我還非常肯定我們各檢察機構同仁為了要營造減災我們也不會讓到每個檢察機構他有降低的目標值當然有些地方的檢察機構包括比如說某些縣政府檢察機構沒有達標但我們也請各檢察機構首長做進一步的檢討"},{"start":14220.11,"end":14236.61,"text":"我問這個問題我沒有責備的意思啦我們就是提出來檢討嘛有些問題可能所以我覺得重大的政策目標假如沒有打標我們是整個勞動部尤其是政務部的首長我們都必須要一起來檢討"},{"start":14237.972,"end":14255.487,"text":"所以事務的沒有關係我認為政務的首長的責任也很大我是這樣子在思考自己的責任我有去檢視職安署的這個宣導網頁啦其實有很多的海報資料提供的事業單位你給它索取或下載"},{"start":14256.988,"end":14282.076,"text":"這個資料其實也是都是做得不錯啦那可是呢就是說資料是很不錯但是還是有這麼多的勞工在墜落那部長你從一個客觀不是職安衛領域的部長你覺得這樣的原因或者是說換一個角度來看當你不清楚狀況或原因的時候你當下你會想要知道什麼樣的資料或訊息"},{"start":14284.692,"end":14302.497,"text":"當然因為我上任以後其實對於這個罪惡的問題其實我非常非常關注所以當然我們其實也跟治安署幾度的討論怎麼樣精進的原因也包括接下來會提治安法的修法可是也不只治安法的修法也包括這裡面其實有些做法上我覺得法尊上面"},{"start":14303.157,"end":14329.195,"text":"我覺得你沒有回答到我問題就是我剛剛問的是說你不清楚當狀況跟原因那個當下因為事件發生嘛你最想要知道的這個資料或訊息是什麼我想你不會去想要修法的問題啦不會立刻馬上要看修法嗎我想這個比較接近的答案應該是說我們想要從這個職災調查報告上面去分析啦那"},{"start":14330.055,"end":14346.738,"text":"就是說有哪些真實發生事故的情況那是當初沒有設想到或者是說沒有落實的部分我們應該是會想要從這些調查報告去反省嘛去看看問題出在哪裡嘛而且就是說"},{"start":14347.419,"end":14371.852,"text":"這些資料應該是開放給外界都可以使用然後讓許多這個職安衛的這個專家都可以共同來診斷的問題才對嗎我不曉得部長有沒有同意好那可是呢你們號稱這個目前的職災資料有揭露公開我們看一下這個這個PowerPoint裡面的內容我認為是在這個虛擬故事敷衍了事"},{"start":14372.492,"end":14393.66,"text":"就說如同這個簡報所揭露的我們來這個幫你們截圖來看你們自己問一下看一下這樣的資料是不是在部長當初您擔任立委的時候所要求的水準這樣的資料公布公開有什麼差別呢那到底這樣的資料我們能夠從這些資料能夠得到什麼"},{"start":14395.253,"end":14421.044,"text":"好 我跟陳仁說明其實我到部以後其實我也跟資安署說過我們其實要非常非常善用資訊公開的這樣子的一個工具來讓我們很多的事業單位必須承擔更多的社會上面的責任跟期待所以如果在資訊公開上面其實有做得更好的地方我覺得就請陳仁就即刻的來讓我們知道那我覺得能做的我們就趕快來進行"},{"start":14421.784,"end":14447.652,"text":"我想我肯定部長的態度啦就是說那我這樣聽就是說那在那部長的意思就是說那你願意要來全面公開這些資料嗎就是作為未來職債預防的參考當然在在有包括個資法等等相關的授權之下我覺得能夠公開的部分我自己的傾向是可以擴大公開所以這個是不夠的嘛很不足啊我們看不出就"},{"start":14447.932,"end":14462.363,"text":"沒有辦法從這些資訊裡面你只是講一個開放發生的地點然後死亡人數的檢查機構看這些要幹嘛呢能夠知道什麼呢對未來的預防沒有太大的幫助啊我覺得對公開上面的dataset的細節我們可以討論"},{"start":14463.804,"end":14490.695,"text":"資訊的部分當然各自我們要盡到保密的責任那其他該公開的要公開那同樣的道理就是職災預防的措施我們還有這些職災地圖啦職安卡的配套那你覺得說我不曉得署長認為說這些措施的功效在哪裡啦因為事業單位跟勞工有因為你們這些設計然後就改變變得更安全嗎我剛剛是說署長"},{"start":14495.061,"end":14510.047,"text":"建委的指教任何的我們推出的政策、測試我們都會再做進一步的檢討那跟委員報告是這個重大災害公開網確實是為了讓全民能夠了解在哪個建案、在哪個工地發生過什麼事故那不管是民眾要做"},{"start":14511.427,"end":14532.922,"text":"那個你也是講很多啦 就是說有沒有 這比較起來有跟沒有而已其實答案就是沒有啦 因為我知道你們做了很多的事情好啦 今年我有特別在檢視老人所發布的這個113年的原住民的職災發生率我在這邊我要很難過的講 就是說已經連續下降4年了連續下降4年喔 那"},{"start":14536.344,"end":14541.913,"text":"去年就再一次上升一下子又回到三年前的水準"},{"start":14543.004,"end":14567.823,"text":"你們不要跟我講說是因為災保法通過之後投保人數增加的原因千萬不要講這個理由那111年開始實施以來齁它起碼就是說畢竟它這樣實施以來就是連續下降兩年然後113年又一下子增加了7%總共增加了64件的重大職災那這個營造業的職災是最多的"},{"start":14568.263,"end":14591.733,"text":"所以這個部分部長你覺得有什麼可以評論或者要回應那個跟陳報告看到這樣子的趨勢的話我認為當然我覺得會需要重點的來做檢討跟原因的分析因為這等於是有點他是一個趨勢的反轉他不只是這個放緩而已而是趨勢的反轉所以我們當然我會來跟我們的這個"},{"start":14595.314,"end":14623.082,"text":"那针对这个数据背后的原因我们来做一个彻底的了解千万不要有那种美化数据的情形发生计算有很多的方式那这个因为劳动部的精进作为应该是说建立已经是建立在不错的基础上希望可以做得更好才叫精进那这个全国劳工产业这个全产业的这个值在千人率113年是多少"},{"start":14624.022,"end":14630.989,"text":"署長有數據嗎你們現在有資料嗎這個數據也在網路上做公開我們113年的你什麼時候在網路上公開我們勞動部網站就查到現在是多少113年全部的數據是2.375所以這個是什麼時候出來"},{"start":14651.66,"end":14677.78,"text":"你們什麼時候公告的我是請教公告的時間我們的統計處就會定時的公告啊對啦 定時是什麼時候啦每個月都會update一次每個月update好 這個月是第一次公開嗎還是現在四月了所以你們是公開我的理解是我們勞保局統計出來的結果資料會給我們的統計處統計處會到我們官網做公開我知道啦 我是問你什麼時候嘛你說我現在不知道你待會跟我講沒關係啊"},{"start":14680.378,"end":14681.259,"text":"因為你們的5年職災減半的經營計畫"},{"start":14700.18,"end":14712.088,"text":"不曉得就是說跟之前那個113年的這個打擊年的差別有沒有在哪邊然後跟針對這個墜落的部分有沒有新的措施跟方案"},{"start":14713.362,"end":14738.102,"text":"有還是沒有 公務員報告 去年最弱的打擊連沒有達到我們的預期目標 各界都跟我們指教所以我也跟所有講的機構首長開過的原商會議我們當然今年是希望朝這個目標去努力除此之外 我們修法也可以把營商會同業公會還有國土署他們的力量 建管的力量一起拉進來 希望能夠把最弱的打擊做得更好"},{"start":14740.669,"end":14764.11,"text":"所以你5年職災減半計劃是有還是沒有就是有沒有把罪漏含進來有 報告委員我們是2030年職災減半計劃好啦 那個半秒鐘可以回答的問題可以你的老毛病又犯了那是這樣齁 就是說也要提醒 要問署長就是說職安署的這個組長跟科長等主管未來會不會有很多人要提早退休或離職啦"},{"start":14766.088,"end":14785.046,"text":"報告委員非常謝謝提這個問題因為我們確實看到我們的工作其實是壓力蠻大的同仁有些是為了要照顧家庭有些提早退休有些剩下規劃確實也有一些同仁是想要先離開那我都誠心希望同仁能夠繼續來跟我一起合作跟努力當然有幾個同仁就是為了照顧家庭"},{"start":14785.606,"end":14806.553,"text":"要提早退休那我就是講那麼多看起來就是真的那我只是要講說因為你現在講的理由都是從你嘴巴講出來的真實的理由可能大家會放在心裡面那我要提醒就是說這個預防職災這不是一個表面上政績的數字是"},{"start":14807.313,"end":14825.826,"text":"那麼而是每一個這個職在勞工家庭的血淚故事那反映的是這樣所以我希望勞動部真的可以好好的檢討那不管是萬年的主管去掌控了這些資料開放不夠的問題或者是求援兼裁判也有可能這樣的問題或者是讓內部機構劣幣驅逐良幣"},{"start":14828.968,"end":14852.416,"text":"好這樣的情形也是有發生所以這些都是直接間接去傷害到勞工然後讓這個職災會持續發生的一個兇手這些原因所以我想請部長好好的去想一想那怎麼做呢到底要怎麼做才能夠有顯著的改善所以你剛才講的這些這些狀況的發生我想我作為一個首長都有責任那我們會來治好這麼檢討謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":14857.728,"end":14861.229,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接續我們請劉建國召委諮詢好 謝謝主席有請審計部理副審計長劉委員好副審計長好審計部最主要的詞權"},{"start":14886.499,"end":14904.477,"text":"簡單說明好不好主要是監督預算執行還有考核財務效能跟核定財務責任核定財務責任嘛是也有稽查財務上的缺失嘛違失嘛對不對核定相關財務的這個責任嘛是所以基本上你們是在監督各級政府"},{"start":14905.998,"end":14918.032,"text":"機關的整個這個財政上的這個收支的情況然後也要這個審定這個決算等等最主要最主要還是有個財務上的這樣的一個維持都是你們在做這個稽查沒有錯嗎是"},{"start":14920.074,"end":14941.592,"text":"所以基本上我們要監督人家的這個機關那要對外整個調查整個集合整個審查的報告要非常非常的精準不為過嘛對不對好所以今天今天你能不能就蘇昭偉排的這個勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追悔及究責這個題目表達你簡單的看法"},{"start":14946.314,"end":14971.249,"text":"這個議題剛剛前面已經報告就是各界其實都非常關注那關注我想分為兩個部分一個部分是過去發現那些疏失以審計部的立場必須針對過去發生的原因還有根據我們查核發現的相關事證那我們會做一些財務上的監督上要做的處理"},{"start":14972.17,"end":14993.646,"text":"那另外就是後續後續就是這個事情既然已經發生後續怎麼樣就那個救安定基金這樣救安定基金本身是一個獨立的財務個體他本身基金設置有他的目的我們希望能夠從跟這個行政機關一起來努力讓這個"},{"start":14995.107,"end":15015.012,"text":"從我們查核發現外部的角度觀察到還有各界的意見我們把它中整提供給勞動部來參考希望能夠在制度面能夠做一些改善好 謝謝副省長我的時間有限了那我們就從第一個面向來談你剛才討論到了嘛那你看今天張偉白這個主題到底是違規還是違法"},{"start":15018.672,"end":15022.014,"text":"有違法的也有違規的有違法亦有違規違法部分因為檢調都已經處理了有違法亦有違規就是副審議長對這件事情"},{"start":15038.584,"end":15057.797,"text":"今天主題的這樣一個看法嘛對不對好那我就請教一下你們給勞動部的含糊是民國109萬到113萬的總共有7000多萬都接受安利基金在使用上與基金業務用途關聯性不高是沒有錯嘛這是你們所寫出來的報告嘛對不對屬公務預算資應換籌也沒有錯嘛屬公務預算資應換籌"},{"start":15063.975,"end":15092.478,"text":"這個文字我們其實是其實後面有其他文字因為我們覺得說那個部分我們尊重勞動部是勞動業務的主管機關他認為這個跟我整個勞動業務有關我們不能有其他的不同意見這個我們尊重好 所以關聯性並不高就是說不能使用在這個救援基金上面跟基金的用途是關聯性不高但是他應該可以屬於用在公務預算裡面"},{"start":15093.9,"end":15112.331,"text":"這個必須勞動部他們根據自己個案因為裡面個案非常多我們列舉出來包括演唱會或者是宣導部分那個部分我想有一部分應該都是跟勞動業務有直接相關是嘛有相關嘛對不對但是跟救援基金的關聯性不高不高應該是這麼講嘛我應該對你這個報告裡面的這樣的一個解釋應該是理解的嘛跟你要表達的應該是看完一致嘛對好"},{"start":15122.136,"end":15124.078,"text":"那如果這樣有沒有所謂的違規違法因為這裡面我們現在就針對這個範疇就好有違規跟違法嗎違法部分其他違法部分就不談嘛可以在公務預算去動之但是不能在居安基金這邊動之那基本上有違規違法的問題嗎"},{"start":15144.544,"end":15167.195,"text":"如果從預算法25條來看因為預算法25條規定是不能在預算外動之經費所以這個部分是需要審酌相關規定審酌相關規定 對但是如果說陳磊所講的他們拍影片做相關的宣導然後在各部會其實原本的預算裡面也都有編列這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":15169.796,"end":15178.442,"text":"那在這個救援基金基本上不應該來編這樣的一個經費所以就回歸到公務預算去做支應"},{"start":15179.608,"end":15200.568,"text":"才屬於合情合理合法嘛對不對應該是這麼講嘛好所以就是簡單講就是矯正回歸到公務預算來做這個支應嘛如其上是這樣嘛對不對好我是必須要這麼講啊如果他如果以這個困所裡面他並沒有違規違法的問題只不過他動之的情況確實有違反到相關的法令那簡單講"},{"start":15202.99,"end":15220.781,"text":"再比較從第二個角度去思考它還是有違規之前啦但是是否涉及到違法我覺得那倒不至於啦是這個幻蟲這我個人的簡單看法你看到各部位都拍了這麼多片"},{"start":15221.681,"end":15231.149,"text":"我倒要幫這個勞動部講幾句話這麼多部位拍了這麼多片勞動部到2023年還拍到這個勞動萬歲為勞工拍的影片的萬歲還入圍到2024的坎城創意獎然後也得到這個國內的32屆的4A創意獎最佳長秒數的廣告也得到這個金獎其他部位我看還沒有得到這麼多獎項"},{"start":15250.703,"end":15266.469,"text":"總而言之業務總之反正他不應該編載救援基金就是不應該編載救援基金啦是他就是要回歸到這公務預算去支用嘛對不對所以我今天要表達這樣的一個論述基本上以審計部在審查在查額在"},{"start":15267.209,"end":15282.003,"text":"整個處理這個相關的預算支應過程裡面,是我有為師,也是你有義務範圍那我們就要把他校正嘛,對不對好,那謝謝副審計長的答覆,請副審計長可以回座位謝謝委員來,有請部長部長,我跟副審計長的對話很清楚嘛那為什麼這些錢一定要在居安基金,不在勞動部裡面去做支應"},{"start":15292.496,"end":15314.812,"text":"一個很大的原因是因為長期以來其實勞動部的這個部本部的預算的編列真的都不足工預算都不足所以後來其實有很多的支出就開始好像就會越來越依賴專基金那這也是很多我們現在看到的一個問題的根源系統性的根源的來源所以你們有做怎樣的矯正嗎"},{"start":15316.909,"end":15325.14,"text":"第一個是我們其實那時候在提出救安基金的改革做法的時候我們第一個步驟就是先跟行政院跟主計來表達我們未來"},{"start":15326.806,"end":15352.655,"text":"在其他部會如果他們照理來說應該是用公務預算的我們要爭取我們也要用公務預算比方說有很多的宣傳這些宣傳就像剛剛劉燕說的其實我們有很多宣傳這些績效他甚至上了國際的舞台他其實是好的可是因為我們的公務預算邊內不足變成他要去用救安基金這時候就會判定跟救安基金關聯不高或不該用救安基金問題接下來這些我們都希望能夠回到公務預算這是第一個第二個事情是我覺得有確實有一些部分"},{"start":15353.055,"end":15379.974,"text":"我認為我們在這個執行上面是可以在做效益上面的檢討的那包括這些相關的規範也包括這次在審計裡面有講到開口契約的問題我是覺得我們的開口契約也該做更嚴格的規範不用像 不該像過去這樣這麼這個所謂開口契約的彈性這麼大也很容易引起爭議你開口契約怎麼去做一個改善你能不能簡單在委員會說明清楚好"},{"start":15381.555,"end":15409.493,"text":"過去其實在開口企業裡面你會看到很多影片或者是活動它都放在開口企業裡面其實容易出爭議的就會是這些拍攝影片或者是活動的辦理未來我們會把這些影片跟活動的辦理都從開口企業裡面拿出來也就是它該依照採購法來去做相關的採購招標的就走這個路而不用只是把它放在開口企業裡面這個部分的改革已經從12月我們就開始去年12月就已經開始了"},{"start":15410.694,"end":15422.895,"text":"所以我們把那時候開口契約的標案是直接給停下來的OK好那另外另外一點你特別提到預算如果不足的情況之下要怎麼辦我們要會當然現在是要跟你爭取不到又要怎麼辦"},{"start":15425.336,"end":15453.621,"text":"我們會就是不能再從這個不相關聯性的的資應裡面去中救安基金去動之吧你做得到嗎對你當部長你做得到嗎當然對不對對不應該把這個事情再發生嗎對如果我們做出多少的成績反正關聯性跟救安基金沒有相關的你就不能從那邊動之嗎對未來就是不能做因為我們就是在用途面直接做出了限定了好了所以請能不能不要自行檢討清楚了避免未來的這個誤用跟錯用好不好好那最後一點"},{"start":15454.941,"end":15468.11,"text":"救援基金回歸到本題救援基金其實他最主要目的就是促進國民就業提升勞工扶植但是他在疫情的時間他也扮演著救火隊當時兩年是變了多少錢你記得吧要應付整個勞動市場這樣的大變動要應付首位的這個"},{"start":15476.355,"end":15485.357,"text":"這個自營作業者還有無一定的雇主的生活補助以及勞工這個紓困貸款的利息補貼我們算了一下3年多應該是有400億左右嘛對不對3年多那我們這次要應變這一個關稅大戰的情況之下"},{"start":15495.973,"end":15525.203,"text":"行政院在勞動部的範疇裡面變了多少錢同意你變了多少錢現在我們因為這次關稅的因應的時間長短還不一定我們目前是先框151但如果需要的話也可以再增加如果需要的話也可以再增加絕對需要也一定要增加所以你可能部長要積極的爭取未雨綢繆因為到底要打多久的關稅戰不清楚而且像川普這樣的一個政治狂人"},{"start":15526.304,"end":15538.777,"text":"你跟他講零關稅他要請你要再多拿一些錢來談甚至於他從這個領域裡面他又會跑到另外一個領域現在又講到我們下個禮拜或許我要特別跟蘇貞偉來討論要不要請物行委員會來針對"},{"start":15542.341,"end":15561.118,"text":"這個相關藥品的進出口的問題因為他又點到這一項了所以全世界皆因川普而要趕快做相關的機器的應用跟佈局跟還有一些跟長治久安的規劃尤其勞工的這樣的一個市場裡面這樣的環境裡面可能會衝擊到更多"},{"start":15564.201,"end":15588.541,"text":"我想這邊列舉的應該部長都很清楚嘛對不對出口最深的產業是電子資訊、鋼鐵、金屬機械、汽車零組件、建材、家電、農業部位還有蝴蝶籃、毛豆、茶葉以及烏龜魚、鬼頭刀、鱸魚等等等這全部都是勞力密集的中小企業及傳統製造業還有農業所以可能會很快的遇到很多的無薪假很多的被裁員"},{"start":15591.603,"end":15617.092,"text":"這個絕對不會亞於疫情的時間所受到的衝擊而且他來的速度會更快多久的時間不清楚我們會把財源都做好準備對OK你們之前有一個10萬的這個這個這個滴滴滴的貸款對不對那利息你知道那次10萬塊而已沒這個但是要還只不過免利息推這個案的時候總共幾個案幾個件數"},{"start":15621.059,"end":15633.893,"text":"幾個件數 你們還記得吧這10萬塊賺到多少錢 扣到多少工資是很好用的不用理性的 不用理性的生態的件數總共幾案"},{"start":15635.613,"end":15647.541,"text":"公務員報告一下,在109年跟110年有辦了勞工紓困貸款,總共合訂的件數有159萬多件159萬多件,一百五十九萬就對了,受理的過程其實就花過很多時間那我們要去補貼這些利息,勞動部花多少錢?"},{"start":15660.436,"end":15676.188,"text":"這兩年我們勞動部是補貼他一年勞工貸款第一年的利息那包括後來央行升息那我們大概總共花費了兩次的貸款總共花費了30億所以補貼利息這兩年我們就貼了30億了對不對等於佔現在關稅的這一個因應的錯是150億的五分之一了啦"},{"start":15685.201,"end":15695.629,"text":"對不對 歷史補貼對啊 就歷史補貼而已歷史補貼就佔了你這一次應對關稅大政的151的五分之一的額度了嘛 對不對那你什麼時候要啟動"},{"start":15696.909,"end":15725.928,"text":"這一次什麼時候要啟動?什麼時機?有評估過了嗎?目前看起來因為其實我們現在只是把相關的政策工具準備那有些部分會先實施有些部分後實施那比方說就像大家現在比較關心的可能減班休息的部分我們會優先的來先做實施所以剛才在講說包括像勞工的紓困貸款這是當時在疫情的時候可能比較中斷的時候會來推出的做法所以我們目前其實也是在盤點不同的政策工具它上路的工具上路的時機點"},{"start":15727.75,"end":15742.659,"text":"我只是提醒部長這一次的換手裡面很多都是屬於密集勞工的相關的一些產業跟農業跟傳統製造業嘛對不對這次來的速度可能會更快150億真的會不夠用所以我要請部長是不是很快速度一週內吧"},{"start":15744.411,"end":15764.946,"text":"因為你看川普不用一週內他就變化萬千要變大家要一起跟著來應變不然會到時候連變都來不及變那我們就會我們會再盤點一下經費的可能好是請整個盤整勞工的衝擊的影響評估還有可能所需要的實際經費同時也能啟動勞工紓困貸款利息補貼的時機好不好OK好謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝部長謝謝謝謝劉委員謝謝部長"},{"start":15773.712,"end":15775.392,"text":"廟仙翔委員質詢謝謝主秀 也要邀請我們的部長 洪部長部長好 您的就任就是在處理一些您就任前之前發生的一些爭端就是社會的一些爭議性的一些東西"},{"start":15803.959,"end":15822.983,"text":"那當然您一上任的時候那您就宣示我們直面爭議絕無袒護當初我們的宣示是這樣嗎是 是嘛應該沒有抹黑你還是誇大反正就是面對問題解決事情但是我今天看了我們的報告就交給委員會的報告那審計部有審計部的報告那我們"},{"start":15827.544,"end":15847.833,"text":"這個勞動部有我們勞動部的報告啦但我感覺在我們報告的部分就有些逼中就輕了啦包括我們審計部的報告裡面很明確就有提到當初社會議題討論最大的那一層演唱會我們審計部在專報裡面有提出來它是使用不當的至少是使用不當 有沒有違法不知道 使用不當但是在我們勞動部的專報裡面我們在檢討這件事情的時候卻沒有看到"},{"start":15853.035,"end":15865.12,"text":"這個這件事情我想確認一下這件事情是我們的同仁一開始就沒有寫上去嗎還是部長有要求這個演唱會不要寫到報告裡面不是這個關於那個音樂會基本上就是在那7000多萬裡面"},{"start":15867.504,"end":15891.638,"text":"那你們寫的一些 從一開始到後來都在七千多萬裡面所以對 我知道我知道就是你們七千萬裡面有很多項目嘛其實全部這個成績簿給的也不止這些啦它很多項目嘛那我們都挑一些重點上來就是社會關心的項目嘛對不對那包括影片製作等等的你們都如實羅列了就大眾最關心的演唱會你們好像就不敢寫上去不是不敢"},{"start":15892.478,"end":15900.809,"text":"我們就沒什麼好不管這是大家都關心的事情今天整天早上大家都在討論這件事情所以這只是做一些摘要的列舉我們也沒有迴避"},{"start":15901.331,"end":15929.275,"text":"在這個音樂會上面辦理的事情這個音樂會辦理的檢討我們也做了所以這個只是好沒關係那這只是一個劣跡同仁本來就沒寫進來嘛部長沒有我沒有怪給同仁但是我的只是很簡單因為這些所有的項目就是以審計部給我們因為我們有時候在看一份報告的時候我們可能就從裡面我們願意成立的一個項目來看我們勞動部願意檢討到底有沒有真心願意來檢討我們可能就從裡面書面支票先來看一個部分嘛"},{"start":15929.855,"end":15950.014,"text":"那另外我想跟部長確認一下就是可能我不知道你前面有沒有提到我之前有新聞有提到說就是這個報告出來了嘛這個審計部的報告出來了那我們部長是說會用公務預算去補嘛所以我想跟部長確認一下會不會你會不會有一毛錢是要跟許明春或者是謝怡龍來求償的"},{"start":15951.215,"end":15968.371,"text":"會不會有一毛錢我跟廖遠說明現在大家都很關心決策者的責任是那勞動部會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究檢調他們可能就是刑事嘛這當然尊重但是我們內部的行政作業"},{"start":15969.031,"end":15982.325,"text":"既然我們的審計部已經要求我們追回了追回就有兩種方式嘛對不對一種就是部長講的嘛就是隔年度的公務預算去補回來另外一種追回的方式是跟失職的公職人員去求償這兩種方式應該沒錯吧"},{"start":15984.887,"end":16010.435,"text":"跟六人說明保安部是一個行政單位我們如果要來跟個人追討的話也需要有法律上的依據這法律上的依據比方說有司法的判決或者比方說如果有判定是要剔除這些是法律上面的依據但我們就有責任要去追回但是我今天要跟任何一個人追回我都要有法律上面的依據"},{"start":16012.148,"end":16025.146,"text":"目前的法律依據就是審計不有所以如果後續檢調的辦理行事歸行事嘛我們行政歸行政啊你求償是民事吧如果今天檢調判定是有不要侵佔"},{"start":16026.294,"end":16041.086,"text":"那我們該追回啊那使用不當嘛你認為這個使用不當是機關的責任還是決策者的責任嘛鳳姐這邊他不一定有刑事責任他不一定有刑事責任我認同啊跟廖遠說明我們現在就是必須依照我們現在就是依照審計的審計結果跟相關的規範來判來後續的執行"},{"start":16048.211,"end":16071.484,"text":"所以你們有兩步路可以走嘛兩個方向可以走嘛所以你們現在就是選擇走用公務預算來補你們目前沒有要對這個許明春以及謝以榮追償嗎追回目前沒有嘛待會你這樣講有點簡化現在檢調跟司法都在偵辦中我們會來配合檢調跟司法的偵辦如果在檢調司法的結果出來這個結果出來"},{"start":16074.933,"end":16085.88,"text":"該怎麼追我們就怎麼追部長如果說什麼東西都推給檢調的話那審計部也不用出報告了啦您的部長上任也不用宣誓了啦這不是推給司法我們要跟個人的追討是要有法律上面的依據"},{"start":16097.419,"end":16115.451,"text":"審計部請你們追回你們就有法令依據就使用不當你有兩條路走你選擇用公務預算來補而不是向個人來求責教員審計部的報告很清楚他是寫修正簡列追回好啦部長修正簡列追回不要審計部的報告是修正簡列追回"},{"start":16118.328,"end":16131.801,"text":"周恩傑我們一上任講得很好聽啦好不好 我不希望我們常常就是上任的時候宣誓的講得很好聽啦結果啊 我們的有一句台語啦 一句閩南語啦 叫做講到一本機啦做不一趟棋啦"},{"start":16134.884,"end":16153.238,"text":"常常會有這樣的說法啦我希望就是我們說什麼當初給社會的期待是什麼以上那個給大家的期待是什麼我們後續就依據大家的期待來做我們從一開始就是說我們尊重審計的結果我們會依照審計的結果來去做相關的辦理這個立場從一開始從12月到現在都沒有改變好沒關係部長謝謝再給我一點時間我請我們的副審計長"},{"start":16161.405,"end":16186.558,"text":"副審計長 幾秒鐘的影片看一下這個去年時訓審計長的這個影片對 追回的對象我那時候很明確的就問審計長我們那時候應該就是確定會追回了我一直跟他追的是追回的對象我們會不會很明確的寫但是很遺憾我們這次審計報告沒有寫追回的對象是誰那剛剛依照我們的紅部長回應"},{"start":16187.938,"end":16195.861,"text":"目前他現在的這個手上他可能自己的判斷他在等這個檢調單位的這個調查嘛所以說我們目前的方向是由公務機關來這個編列預算來彌補這個追回的一個問題嘛那剛剛就我們這個沈議長講的要去釐清這個對象如果說我們的勞動部是用公務預算來補的話那你們願意替他背書嗎"},{"start":16215.114,"end":16235.144,"text":"這個跟委員報告這個沒有背書的問題啦就是目前我們是修正就業安利基金的決算省計長說看責任在誰嘛對不對責任在誰那現在部長他認為應該是用公務預算來補救好了嗎那你們就認同他這樣的做法嗎我當初很明確的就是要問"},{"start":16236.639,"end":16251.779,"text":"許銘春跟這個謝以龍有沒有這個責任嘛責任會不會是在他們要不要跟他們追回當初那一場你應該也有在聽啦那沈記長很明確就是說看責任在誰看責任在誰就跟誰追回我的理解是這樣子吧"},{"start":16253.421,"end":16273.894,"text":"沒錯 至少現在勞動部不認為責任在謝宜榮跟許銘春嘛這個我不方便幫勞動部答覆 但是審計部能做的第一個司法部分我們移送檢調那這個要等他最終的司法規司法不討論 這個個人報告一定"},{"start":16277.316,"end":16293.821,"text":"司法他如果是因為這樣個人的行為除了觸犯刑法以外他還造成公帑損失這個我們要追究財務責任啊造成刑法跟造成公帑損失兩個不一定有這些關聯嘛一個是刑事責任 一個是刑政責任我們審計部"},{"start":16295.968,"end":16302.872,"text":"並沒有司法調查權所以我們沒辦法去釐清相關的對照關係沒關係 我客觀的講就是針對勞工部目前打算用這個公務預算來補這個要追回的錢我們審計部是沒有意見的沒有 這個是要尊重他們行政機關就尊重沒有意見嘛沒有 不是沒意見這個預算的籌編是行政院的責任是部會責任 不是審計部啦審計部是監督預算執行那我們能做的不是你的責任就沒意見嘛"},{"start":16325.883,"end":16345.215,"text":"不是 不是 我們有我們自己的獨立的審計立場我們發現 包括剛剛廖委員很關心可能有特定的首長他要負責任這個部分我們都移送到監察院這個監察院他會有好 沒關係 以上我只是想藉由今天的質詢來瞭解一下各個機關立場而已 好不好謝謝 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝廖委員 謝謝副審計長來 繼續我們請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":16362.415,"end":16365.116,"text":"謝謝主席 陽勛發言 邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出 針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符"},{"start":16391.223,"end":16411.531,"text":"該巨額款項的用途不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任"},{"start":16412.171,"end":16438.659,"text":"其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規定 是嗎"},{"start":16440.802,"end":16460.309,"text":"跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟"},{"start":16461.149,"end":16483.437,"text":"行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我們我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果"},{"start":16484.918,"end":16510.955,"text":"跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主席來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此"},{"start":16511.135,"end":16532.082,"text":"我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的問題這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論本席可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一"},{"start":16532.842,"end":16559.105,"text":"是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一 對"},{"start":16560.871,"end":16578.008,"text":"所以不一定這麼做但我們會要來跟其實相關的單位來討論因為你現在是部長所以我們要了解目前的進度也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式是不是如此我們之前有說我們會來想要來爭取但是有說這是做法之一所以還沒有決定哪一種方式因為這個也要勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎"},{"start":16580.07,"end":16598.184,"text":"我們之前有說我們想要爭取公務預算的規定因為這是過去遇到修正檢列並追回的時候的做法之一我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解我們政府預定要怎麼做所以現在您所提的這個是預定之一所以還沒有真正到最後決定要怎麼做是不是如此"},{"start":16599.718,"end":16626.316,"text":"我們會來討論 會來討論所以還沒有決定嗎是不是還沒有定案我們可以這麼說這是我們做法預定的做法之一預定的做法之一所以你還有之二之三是不是如此因為你現在是行政部門所以還要跟相關單位來討論所以我們可以給社會大眾說之前您說的要編列明年度的預算公務預算來規定還不一定是這個方式還在討論中"},{"start":16628.677,"end":16657.16,"text":"對 我們可以跟相關單位再討論你這個對 我們會繼續來討論因為剛剛審計單位 組計單位都有說明那麼您之前也說如果這個有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究它畢竟會蠻長的一段時間曠日廢時有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部"},{"start":16658.121,"end":16674.543,"text":"因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明"},{"start":16675.865,"end":16688.882,"text":"姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆"},{"start":16690.464,"end":16710.343,"text":"或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成"},{"start":16710.503,"end":16732.337,"text":"好把你們精進的方案請順便資料一份給本席沒有問題那麼也就針對這個案子你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢有做處分或做整理嗎"},{"start":16733.943,"end":16759.188,"text":"關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本席認為您也應當要有內部的行政調查"},{"start":16760.929,"end":16770.596,"text":"權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中"},{"start":16779.242,"end":16800.834,"text":"這個就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分呢跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛"},{"start":16801.474,"end":16818.846,"text":"你認同嗎是把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障"},{"start":16819.486,"end":16838.991,"text":"那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成"},{"start":16839.631,"end":16868.215,"text":"分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康"},{"start":16870.219,"end":16888.551,"text":"市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以因為你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合部長你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎"},{"start":16898.697,"end":16911.006,"text":"包委員過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工地改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低"},{"start":16914.128,"end":16936.449,"text":"好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準"},{"start":16937.209,"end":16961.446,"text":"跟楊蘭說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛"},{"start":16962.146,"end":16980.017,"text":"罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好 謝謝謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長圖前級委員改稱書面執行接續請楊耀委員執行"},{"start":17000.204,"end":17002.15,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請下 洪普澤"},{"start":17010.889,"end":17035.182,"text":"部長好 部長上個禮拜勞動部有發布新聞稿說就審計部查核了109年到113年度就業安定基金經費支出者情形的審核結果對不對 是那其中有認為就業安定基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作"},{"start":17037.339,"end":17056.914,"text":"臉書粉絲團經營、僑簽活動、春節紅包袋、三節禮品等各項支出和就業安定基金支出的用途相關聯性不高應該要屬於公務預算支出的範疇,應該要收回"},{"start":17058.973,"end":17067.402,"text":"那部長對於這樣子的一個報告大概有對外說明了說勞動部預計要分幾年來歸電對不對"},{"start":17076.759,"end":17100.273,"text":"因為審計的報告最後的結果審查結果裡面是判定這個是修正檢列要追回那從過去大概修正如果判定修正檢列也就是說他不該使用救安基金那應該這個因為這些業務是在業務上面有執行他的需要所以應該回到公務預算來去處理那所以過去用公務預算編列公務預算來歸電是"},{"start":17102.034,"end":17126.144,"text":"如果被判定修正檢列的方法做法之一對以前有過有過例子嗎有規定因為我我我編列公務商規定這是過去會有的做法你這邊有有有什麼有什麼例子嗎因為因為規定我覺得怪波普呢是事先"},{"start":17128.795,"end":17138.592,"text":"從公務預算把錢到給基金這個是事事先那基金已經先不合目的使用"},{"start":17139.949,"end":17159.555,"text":"再編列預算那你預算科目要變在哪裡其實某部分就是說這意思是說這個支出是在業務上面支出只是他不應該用救安基金也就是他應該用公務預算所以等於有點像是公務預算的範疇要編回還給救安基金"},{"start":17160.609,"end":17179.401,"text":"它是一個還的概念我知道因為就歸店的字面上意思來看也知道是還我現在只是說在預算法上的依據是什麼我不是很清楚你們勞動部有誰可以回答"},{"start":17180.422,"end":17197.704,"text":"然後你們可能會要怎麼要編列在什麼預算科目這個算是新增的預算跟姚委員說明第一個是我們確實勞務部行政部門我們還是必須依照審計的結果來去做辦理跟相關的規範來去辦理"},{"start":17199.426,"end":17228.348,"text":"那但是這個編列供預算規定是我們認為可以做的做法之一但我們知道現在外界會覺得好像這是不是會是用全民的稅金等等的這個看法但詳細具體的做法我們會再跟行政院跟審計來討論我現在還沒有討論到是不是會用全民的稅金我現在是在講一個預算上的東西就是說規定它本身是預算法裡面"},{"start":17230.089,"end":17250.897,"text":"規定的報告委員因為根據我們這次我們部裡面就業安定基金這個5年的這個支出因為審計部審核的結果是修正減劣收回所以依照這樣子的一個審定的結果我們的做法就是說"},{"start":17252.177,"end":17271.911,"text":"就是代表說這個基金的用途可能審計的看法是覺得這個關聯性不高那是相對來講的話我們基金要收回來的話那就是過去的做法是有這樣子的例子就是說可能還是要從公務預算來撥補這是另外增編這個預算來處理"},{"start":17273.912,"end":17290.822,"text":"這是一個過去可能可以處理的方向那我這邊有提供一個例子是過去曾經我們的就業安定基金在民國90幾年的時候有內政部某一個計畫那那個計畫是就是屬於這個當時是"},{"start":17295.145,"end":17321.358,"text":"請向我們救安基金來申請補助這個失能老人跟身心障礙補助使用居家服務的計畫那我們當年度這個計畫有來申請我們救安基金的補助但是這個經過審計部的審核結果也是認為說應該要修正簡列所以後來這一筆一億多的這個申請補助就"},{"start":17323.378,"end":17335.312,"text":"在當年度就被修正了那後來內政部在後面的年度他有編了這筆預算來還給我們救安基金這是過去有的例子"},{"start":17338.636,"end":17363.268,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告你們是配合內政部的活動嗎不是我剛剛有跟委員報告這個案例是內政部來申請救安基金的補助的案例那也曾經發生過審計部審核的結果是認為說可能跟基金的用途關聯性不高所以"},{"start":17365.429,"end":17384.481,"text":"當年的審計的審定的結果是要修正跟我們的這個案子是相同的錢必須要還給救安基金這個是沒有問題的只是說在預算上所以有過前例是這樣子就對了"},{"start":17388.949,"end":17413.871,"text":"那我再問就是說就業安定基金的使用項目上面現在就是有幾個項目是被認定跟基金支出用途關聯性不高其中呢"},{"start":17415.854,"end":17444.347,"text":"其中有紅包袋有紅包袋春聯紙圖頭那就我所知春聯就是只寫只寫了部長的名字紅包袋也只寫了部長的名字這個我的認定就不是關聯性不高而已"},{"start":17445.823,"end":17471.792,"text":"這個是沒有關聯性部長你聽懂我的意思嗎我可以理解楊委員的意思那當然關聯性不高這是審計部可以判定但是我就說這些相關的做法如果是我的話我不會這樣做我知道我知道我知道所以我並不是想並沒有要為難你的意思我現在的意思是說像這個"},{"start":17473.24,"end":17484.192,"text":"你們有沒有可能檢討看看有沒有不當得力的問題如果有不當得力或者是違法營私的話目前檢調正在辦"},{"start":17486.245,"end":17512.253,"text":"可是不當得利是公法上的民事關係對但是我說這部分你們並不一定你們並不一定要這個跟刑事案件是兩回事懂我的意思嗎跟我的說明剛剛像講這些我們這些包括春聯啊等等等目前我們已經很清楚明定救安基金未來就是不能夠做這些事情了不是我是說過去的這一件"},{"start":17514.11,"end":17540.333,"text":"你們會不會考慮做不當得力 民事上因為部長剛剛有講嘛形勢上的問題已經是檢調在做處理這個我們不置評現在是說看起來紅包袋只寫部長的名字沒有任何跟勞工就業"},{"start":17541.895,"end":17565.156,"text":"勞工權益勞工福祉有關的東西這個我的認定這個是有不當得理的我想跟姚元說明這些紅包袋或者是春聯它其實比較它也是發給勞工朋友的不是它是發給勞工朋友但是它的用途可能是比方說會辦一些活動的時候它發這些紅包袋"},{"start":17566.317,"end":17585.631,"text":"他作為比較能夠去吸引這些勞工朋友來參與相關的活動當時他去設計這些紅包袋的用意是這樣也就是說可能我們辦了一些活動那你發送這些相關的文宣品比較能夠去吸引勞工朋友願意再來多參與當時他的用意是這樣子"},{"start":17587.349,"end":17614.62,"text":"部長我這樣子講,就是說我其實是想要問一下你們的態度因為我向來不是很喜歡去追究離職的人也不想要為難不是造成結果的現任者的人"},{"start":17616.089,"end":17634,"text":"只是說我自己的認定我並不覺得說辦活動然後的文宣品上面辦活動本身政府部長的講法是跟勞工福祉有關文宣品上面"},{"start":17635.546,"end":17655.22,"text":"全部就都沒有這個是是可以的啦這是我我個人的看法我意思喔我知道我知道蔣委員的意思對啦那我最後還是還是還是要講啊就這個就是哎從許民村部長在任的時候我一直在講我上我我"},{"start":17655.86,"end":17681.405,"text":"我在審基金預算的時候也講過啦我覺得就業安定基金的收支保管和運用辦法裡面第五條裡面講的辦理提升勞工福祉四項我覺得這個規定這麼籠統的規定假如你們不想辦法把它具體化"},{"start":17683.1,"end":17694.473,"text":"我相信紅十三部長在任的時候不會有問題啦不過法規不夠明確就是會因人"},{"start":17697.376,"end":17725.115,"text":"因為誰當部長而有變化啦我跟姚委員說明現在關於救安基金的收支管理用辦法我們正在修訂中我們現在把那第12款拿掉以外其他款我們也希望能夠讓他的這個更加的明確目前其實也在修訂中更加明確然後當然我們我們也不要也不會希望說勞動部因為這個事件所以"},{"start":17728.116,"end":17750.564,"text":"就安定基金的時候保障勞工權益的時候綁手綁腳啦我們也不希望這樣子啦就是該應該要用就用可是一定要用在勞工的所以這也是為什麼我覺得應該把規範給規範清楚在這個線內就是大家可以安心的使用而不會用的心驚膽顫這也是我們希望把規範規範得更清楚的原因好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":17751.809,"end":17757.41,"text":"好 謝謝央委員 謝謝部長接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢好 謝謝是不是部長你再喝一口水慢慢來喝好了再上"},{"start":17781.22,"end":17781.92,"text":"部長今天大家談了很多但是我因為時間的關係"},{"start":17794.531,"end":17818.705,"text":"所以其實我不太想要再談就是說因為你們所屬基金違規使用的這個問題不過裡面有一個審計單位講了一句話我覺得我還是忍不住就問一下但你也不一定要馬上回答就是說他們採購的禮品分送的對象不明分送的對象不明沒有照冊也不曉得拿去送給誰"},{"start":17820.406,"end":17837.683,"text":"這個事情就不是違規使用而已這個問題可大可小好那我就不問你這個了我是要問你有比這個更令我擔心的啦因為這個這個問題是大家違規使用大家都已經講很久那也"},{"start":17839.246,"end":17854.611,"text":"政治上也報導很多但我要講一個是跟人民比較相關當然就是最關注的就是川普政府他舉著這個保護主義然後的大旗然後一個美國"},{"start":17856.229,"end":17879.985,"text":"再度偉大的這樣的一個大旗高舉所以國族主義興起那在2000年我們要加入WTO的時候當時對WTO的遊戲規則我們至少我個人當時就大家在討論就覺得只有一招可以對付WTO的這個遊戲規則因為WTO的遊戲規則裡面對勞工對農業對環保是最不利的"},{"start":17886.609,"end":17898.314,"text":"最弱勢的那當時在二三十年前我們就預見了說唯有國族主義可以對抗WTO的這個遊戲規則當然國族主義牽涉的層面很多比如說都開放都進口都零關稅但我們全部都不用不買這是一種方法但沒想到21世紀的2025年國族主義是"},{"start":17915.962,"end":17929.25,"text":"乾脆把WTO的整個遊戲規則和架構都給它瓦解掉所以今天我們不是看到加關稅32%不只是看到這個憂慮其實我前幾天蠻焦慮的因為這個被瓦解是一個WTO的這個架構那貿易的遊戲規則 瞬間大家都可以呼呼的頂來"},{"start":17941.963,"end":17965.356,"text":"你對我關稅壁壘 我也對你關稅壁壘所有的一切 從多邊主義變成一對一 單邊然後都要重來 重談你對我 美國可以這樣對人家中國也可以這樣對人家市場大的 大國都可以這樣對任何每一個好欺負的那這樣子 這樣子"},{"start":17967.168,"end":17991.767,"text":"台灣會倒我們是以出口為導向的我們的經貿沒有出口賺不了錢我們會倒我們不但沒有市場我們也沒有資源沒有能源所以在這裡我其實更擔憂的是說不是舊股市而已股市股災人家說股災的受限就那些人雖然全台灣股民已經一千多萬了"},{"start":17992.768,"end":18017.796,"text":"一千多萬幾乎家家戶戶都有玩股票了這當然很嚴重可是經濟產業就業這個是更嚴重的那我其實很擔心你們很擔心你們的原因是說我們真的很想要知道說你政府到底有沒有掌握到掌握到雖然我們沒有辦法去預判到未來的遊戲世界貿易"},{"start":18020.398,"end":18030.935,"text":"的遊戲規則會怎麼演變也不敢去也不用這麼急著要去去擔憂不用杞人憂天但是至少跟美國的經貿這一次的32%的加稅"},{"start":18035.356,"end":18062.354,"text":"如果沒有轉圜如果從今天就要生效那對我們國內的產業的衝擊會是集中在哪幾個產業別你才能夠告訴我說受衝擊的勞工會有多少而衝擊的對象他們需要什麼樣的政策來銜接來給他們保護起來這個保護網是足夠於網住他們讓他們衝擊不要太大的"},{"start":18065.12,"end":18089.994,"text":"部長你們有沒有討論過不只討論其實也做了評估那目前確實看起來針對這32%的關稅美方提出來32%未來在談判過程裡面會不會調整這個還要看談判的狀況可是如果就這32%來看的話大家其實最擔心的事情是關於這些傳產的出口產出口製造業傳產一句話不要這樣一語帶過要更精準的了解到包括機械"},{"start":18091.215,"end":18107.488,"text":"包括汽車零組件包括像是一些金屬製品的水五金包括扣件業 螺絲螺蟒你確定嗎我把你的朋友叫盧祁鴻他寫了一篇他的資料給你看來台灣對美國出口七成集中在十項類別看清楚啊"},{"start":18117.997,"end":18125.483,"text":"對還有包括剛才說包括電線電纜我還沒講包括電線電纜然後這個是產品而已這個是產品來我講他的資料來台灣的這個出口裡面前十類是這種第一類是自動資料處理機器還有磁光"},{"start":18146.321,"end":18173.414,"text":"讀取器第二名統計上第二名是特定設備的零件與配件HS8473再來是電子集體電路及零件這個不討論因為這個是ITA對這個還沒有公佈是我不見得我不認為他會是豁免他只能說還沒有公佈再來是電話機加智慧型手機再來是光碟磁帶固定儲存設備"},{"start":18175.802,"end":18202.335,"text":"然後未分類的產品螺絲、螺栓、螺母、卯丁接下來是拖拉機運輸車輛零件和配件再來是變壓器、轉換器還有電感器零件最後才是運動器材和設備好這個是產品可是這一些HS開頭的編號這些產品對照到產業別是真的如你所說的是"},{"start":18204.309,"end":18216.113,"text":"機械產業還有什麼是嗎OK來他們對照道產業別應該是電子零組件製造業那這個電腦電子產品及光學製品製造業電力設備及配備製造業機械設備製造等好來那這幾個產業我剛剛講這幾個產業嘛這是你的好朋友"},{"start":18233.717,"end":18238.712,"text":"他自己去找資料 拔書出來的我在官方部門 我至少 你有看過這樣的統計嗎"},{"start":18241.24,"end":18267.601,"text":"我有看過 該部門有相關的統計我們從勞動部的角度我們會特別關心的事情是因為包括我們還會關心說他是不是中小企業的比例特別高因為如果中小企業的比例特別高他遇到衝擊的時候他可能承受衝擊的能力會再比大的企業再來的更差這是我們從勞動部的角度來說那你的好朋友關注的角度"},{"start":18269.003,"end":18273.828,"text":"他是從總體來講因為我在官方沒有看到這個統計然後他看到台灣過去2023年全台灣的GDP比2000年因為2000年台灣剛要加入WTO"},{"start":18287.902,"end":18292.946,"text":"我們增加了12.91兆元就是這23年來台灣的GDP增加了12.91兆那其中32%是由剛剛對應的這四項產業所貢獻"},{"start":18307.137,"end":18335.517,"text":"所以過去二十幾年來的貿易自由化的這個極盛的時期台灣經濟成長主要的三成以上都來自這四項產業就是我剛剛念過電子零組件製造電腦電子產品和光學製品電力設備及配備製造業機械設備製造業這很關鍵喔三成以上台灣GDP成長的貢獻來自於這四大產業"},{"start":18337.298,"end":18347.384,"text":"而且現在就講到重點 受雇人數你們有沒有評估到 你說關注的是中小企業那有沒有評估到衝擊人數會有多少"},{"start":18348.722,"end":18376.161,"text":"我們其實有把這些相關的產業他的受僱的人數大概做了一些掌握重擊大概有多少但是我沒有辦法說那個產業裡面所有的勞工數字就是一定會受衝因為這裡面也包括你講得太好了因為也包括有一些產業他並不是他所有的訂單都是只有對美國你講得太正確了但是我還是要告訴你你的好朋友說的"},{"start":18378.322,"end":18394.368,"text":"這個受僱人數啊這一些產業它的產業特色是資本和技術密集度高一般GDP的成長全台灣成長了這麼高但是呢我們的受僱人數整體這20幾年來沒有什麼成長但是呢這個"},{"start":18403.991,"end":18409.444,"text":"成長的大部分GDP成長然後大部分都是在工業及服務業的人數成長了16%但2000年的話"},{"start":18415.483,"end":18432.45,"text":"2000年的話這些產業的僱用人數就是四大類整體是服務業在成長這20幾年來可是偏偏這四大項的產業的受僱人數它從84.8萬上升到2023年是124萬人"},{"start":18440.894,"end":18461.473,"text":"所以說這20幾年來這四項產業多僱用了40萬人在工業人數逐漸的佔比在下降可是這四大產業人數多了40萬的從業人口所以它還逆勢的佔整體工業及服務業受僱人數比重從14%"},{"start":18464.201,"end":18477.759,"text":"上升到15%所以我們現在看得到的就是說這幾項產業出口到美國的前幾大商品它對應的產業別它的受僱人數是大幅成長的"},{"start":18480.828,"end":18489.899,"text":"如果他受到衝擊 那衝擊很大可是他到底有沒有受到衝擊所以你的好朋友 他講了幾個觀點嘛就是說我們32%的關稅你放進去"},{"start":18495.686,"end":18510.689,"text":"我們會不會受到大衝擊要考量幾個一個美國自己有我們的產品是不是無可替代啦是第二個消費者的價格彈性低再貴都會買如果是無可替代的話"},{"start":18512.139,"end":18534.116,"text":"你就要給我買啊 你不給我買就不會贏的啊就是這個關稅是由誰來承擔啦 對啦再來就是說 我們一樣賣東西到美國主要的競爭者他的關稅如果比我們高那也沒關係啊我們的主要競爭者如果是越南越南幾%"},{"start":18535.902,"end":18551.251,"text":"越南之前是46那如果我們主要競爭者是越南他們關稅課比我們高我們會取代他們嘛搞不好因為這樣子我們還獲利呢所以就要來檢驗了那檢驗的狀況是這樣子台灣的生產成本其實如果美國貿易部門公佈的有幾個比32%以上的我們就叫它高關稅國"},{"start":18562.518,"end":18580.246,"text":"那如果是10%到32%的叫中低關稅股好了那加拿大墨西哥就不在加徵範圍內就不討論喔那台灣的產品喔你看一下我們的主要競爭者這幾類裡面喔你來看一下喔"},{"start":18585.573,"end":18592.119,"text":"前四項 前四項 前四名啊 前四名就是HS8471、8473、8517還有8523 抱歉我念錯了 8542和8517 8523沒有"},{"start":18602.488,"end":18622.142,"text":"他們輸出到美國 在美國的市佔率是46%他的市佔率僅次於高關稅國跟高關稅我們比高關稅的其他國家還要少一點 他們加起來但我們跟所有的高關稅國加起來市佔率是73%所以"},{"start":18626.425,"end":18642.194,"text":"高關稅國加我們加起來在美國的市佔率是73%那如果出口到美國前十大類的商品來看就是這張圖表來看這個高關稅國的市佔率很高那我們是高關稅國裡面32%是最低的有可能我們還要替代掉他們因為"},{"start":18652.219,"end":18662.65,"text":"我們可能比他們關稅還低那我們就有市場價格的競爭性這樣子然後再來就是說他這裡講到"},{"start":18664.462,"end":18689.413,"text":"八四七三 八五二三 七三一八 八七零八 八五零四就是特定設備的零件和配件 八五二三的光碟磁帶固態儲存設備螺絲 螺栓 螺紋 錨釘 拖拉機 運輸車輛零件和配件 偏壓器 轉換器和感電的零件等等"},{"start":18690.68,"end":18703.29,"text":"OK 這個高關稅國的市佔率不高可是我們都知道高關稅國他現在所公佈的那幾個國家包括越南 泰國 中國 印尼他們理論上價格的競爭優勢很高"},{"start":18707.537,"end":18725.955,"text":"他們的製造成本很低理論上他們的市佔率應該在美國很高可是並沒有所以他們 你的好朋友說消費者或許重視品質更勝於價格但是呢 其實這個8523 7318"},{"start":18731.596,"end":18733.018,"text":"8708 8523 8708 8504他又覺得說這個被替代的可能性也是蠻高的"},{"start":18742.765,"end":18765.012,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡就是說美國自己國內有然後要我們雖然不是無可取代但是他們要自己製造這個太難了但是就是說有一種是我們價格比較高但是因為品質比較好所以人家消費者需求的是品質而不是價格而已"},{"start":18766.352,"end":18783.276,"text":"但是呢我們真的是擔心就是說短期裡面我們或許看不到說馬上我們就有來自美國自己本土製造或是其他中低關稅國就把我們的產業產品都替代掉但是呢我們比較擔心的就是說你從這裡來看出口產業在面臨貿易自由化如果WTO架構瓦解的時候"},{"start":18798.385,"end":18805.477,"text":"這個未來都有可能那在這種狀況裡面我們真的是產業的寒冬可能會來臨產業的寒冬會來臨"},{"start":18810.051,"end":18831.893,"text":"光是短暫的評估美國的這個衝擊我們還看不出到底是所有的產業都會受到衝擊或者是只是部分那這個勞工怎麼辦那我們就想到說那你端出來的政策夠不夠你的就業安定安定就業的四大措施夠不夠在這裡面我就想要跟你討論一下"},{"start":18834.268,"end":18861.783,"text":"之前我們一直關心的就是無薪假津貼無薪假津貼那因為上一屆我被人家踢出去未還委員會我從2016年就關心無薪假津貼那到持續關係到我被迫我不准參加未還委員會來然後終於看到2023年我們的無薪假津貼你們已經修正了就是就業保險促進就業的實施辦法"},{"start":18862.924,"end":18887.482,"text":"你們說只要勞僱雙方 有人開始協商要減少工時就是好聽 我講說你們講的很好聽叫減班休息 其實就無薪假那經評估有必要時 勞動部得召開雇用安定措施的諮詢會議然後去辦理雇用安定措施"},{"start":18888.971,"end":18914.344,"text":"好那我的意思我的問題跟跟跟我的說明其實減班休息雖然外界會認為是無薪假但他並不是真的無薪台灣的減班休息是要付基本工資的我知道很多的國家他的無薪假是不用付不用付基本工資但台灣的所以講無薪假有的時候會讓人家真的以為他是真的無薪但並不是真的無薪"},{"start":18914.892,"end":18931.834,"text":"好你們要用減班休息也可以但是也有人真的是說你不希望你不是要無薪的話他可能給的沒有給到全薪喔這個是執行面的問題是他會不給全薪但至少他要給不給全部的基本工資喔也有喔但是大家"},{"start":18931.834,"end":18936.98,"text":"大家不好說 這個就不要講了當然你要講說他不符合而且違法可是勞工沒有談判的籌碼有時候他就是要多這個錢好 那我現在不爭執這個名詞我現在要問的是說"},{"start":18948.553,"end":18964.95,"text":"到底你們什麼時候會我們重點是當你們不早一點啟動這個機制然後當衝擊來的因為今天4月9號要開始嘛然後你們的安定措施諮詢會議你認為你什麼時候可能會召開"},{"start":18966.609,"end":18980.616,"text":"跟委員報告我們過去其實會有一些關於安定就業相關的政策的工具我們在把這些政策工具現在也在做一些經驗的彙整可是我們目前是要來去規劃出一個因應目前關稅的版本"},{"start":18981.907,"end":19009.338,"text":"這個因應過去關稅的版本的意思是說比方說我們過去可能把這些相關的工具它是用在疫情的期間可是疫情裡面其實它很多是服務業可是這一次很多是出口的製造業它還是會有情境上面的不同所以我們希望能夠把這些相關的工具它可能啟動的條件或者是適用的範圍包括是支持力度如果需要加碼的話都有一個相對在這一次關稅的量身訂做的做法那這也不是只有針對剛剛"},{"start":19010.859,"end":19036.864,"text":"林委員說的這個公安訂的措施其實我們相對應的好幾個就業工具現在都在做這些情境跟條件的重新的盤整我再提醒你一下你的就業保險促進就業的實施辦法裡面不是限於服務業喔不是限於服務業喔你剛剛講的好像說在疫情期間才這麼寬鬆不是這個是一體試用而且就是工業服務業通通一體試用製造業都一體試用而且我再提醒你一下"},{"start":19037.964,"end":19049.321,"text":"第一個要件叫受景氣因素影響導致停工或減產那這個美國關稅的這個衝擊夠不夠成這個第一個要件的第一句話"},{"start":19050.546,"end":19053.648,"text":"如果造成衝擊我認為當然是符合的所以這裡也包括我們在跟經濟部針對這個問題在做討論因為我們的就業保險促進就業實施辦法裡面第一句話就是要受景氣因素這樣子"},{"start":19068.996,"end":19088.514,"text":"你認為是 OK那很好再來就是說中小企業的平均壽命中小企業13年那傳產的或中小企業的傳產裡面很多勞工從業人員我們都知道整體的勞工大概有八成都是在中小企業就業"},{"start":19089.946,"end":19114.169,"text":"所有企業提供了八成的勞工的就業機會全產裡面從業人員也都是資深人員居多當年輕做到資深都是中高齡而這一波如果受衝擊的就是中高齡中高齡的人真的如果放了無薪假然後再重新出發有那麼容易重新就業嗎大家都知道是問號"},{"start":19115.43,"end":19120.77,"text":"沒那麼容易所以你現在的安心就業你們的四大措施裡面"},{"start":19122.103,"end":19129.566,"text":"維持雇用安定薪資差額補貼減班休息可是你諮詢會議都還沒開充電再出發然後叫他們去參訓那他們要參訓什麼產業他們能夠參訓什麼產業鼓勵企業辦訓在職訓練中小企業都沒有在職訓練"},{"start":19147.713,"end":19156.78,"text":"辦訓的能力協助微型創業利息補貼中高齡失業也不太有這個能力自行去創業"},{"start":19158.423,"end":19175.945,"text":"所以你這個對製造業的中高齡勞工而言可能距離很遙遠所以我們其實希望要特別針對現在的情境去做這些你針對現在的情境就是第一個製造業"},{"start":19176.946,"end":19180.168,"text":"不是服務業嘛優先稱職業是製造業再來就是中小型的製造業中小型的製造業然後呢中高齡然後你說辦訓中小企業辦訓這個是"},{"start":19194.727,"end":19208.359,"text":"我們也可以辦訓所以我們也在調整我們的辦訓因為也有一些工會來跟我們說他們也希望說如果要有一些把他們轉換到其他的產業的時候他們希望我很樂意聽到你說你們也願意辦訓或是委託其他職業工會來辦訓因為你端出來的時候是講鼓勵企業辦訓我是跟你講這個是"},{"start":19220.208,"end":19228.253,"text":"我們也在這個裡面 包括我們自己在多辦訊 而且辦訊的方向也希望能夠去符合接下來新的產業的需求你講對了 可是新的產業這些中高齡有辦法馬上上手嗎而且中高齡成功轉換行業的"},{"start":19238.418,"end":19263.807,"text":"這個統計你們有看得出來留任率高嗎其實我們看到相對於年輕族群中高齡尋找新工作的過程都是很辛苦和漫長的啦光是要找到願意聘僱自己的僱主都很難的所以最終他們都是面臨到淪為流動性最高低薪低技術的派遣勞工或者是提早退休或者是失業經常是這樣子"},{"start":19265.948,"end":19282.206,"text":"所以你端出來的牛肉要能夠網得住他們銜接可以接得住他們那要很務實啊跟林委員說明我們其實現在當然因為台灣的人口結構包括勞動結構確實一定會往中高齡去所以我們對於中高齡的協助包括"},{"start":19283.167,"end":19305.792,"text":"有一些相對應的措施不管是訓練也好甚至職務在設計也好需要更細緻的來協助他們你在這裡講這幾句話都很容易啊但是你設計出來很具體的很務實的是什麼那就不容易了那光是你第一點你四大安定措施裡面第一點就是所謂的無薪假津貼我們不講無薪假叫簡班休息津貼我就問你的你們的諮詢會議沒有辦理"},{"start":19311.995,"end":19324.266,"text":"你就沒有辦法馬上立即及時第一個第二個第二個其實你不用怕太早辦理因為太早辦理你們的實施辦法裡面還有一條狀況OK的情境景氣變好了隨時可以中斷沒錯"},{"start":19326.949,"end":19337.974,"text":"所以不要怕太早啟動你們的諮詢會議所以我再問你一次你覺得可以儘早來啟動這個諮詢會議你們評估這個衝擊有沒有可能什麼時候會開始這個諮詢會議如果你們諮詢會議啟動了我們才有辦法去申請津貼啊我們應該可以在下週就來啟動這個諮詢會議好 謝謝謝謝林委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":19358.106,"end":19386.992,"text":"王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在張祺凱 張祺凱 張祺凱委員不在黃國昌 黃國昌 黃國昌委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在葉元之 葉元之 葉元之委員不在蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在鄭振全 鄭振全 鄭振全委員不在"},{"start":19388.547,"end":19400.82,"text":"何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我人不在本日會議審打全部結束"},{"start":19405.717,"end":19433.974,"text":"委員 涂謙吉 邱若驊 許欣盈所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在作以下決定第一 報告及刑法完畢第二 委員執行未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束 現在散會"},{"start":19446.886,"end":19447.067,"text":"歡迎光臨"},{"start":19459.4,"end":19459.62,"text":"對呀,對呀"}]}},{"id":"16571","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16571","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d9b2e70173c67771b7e60f8021a25648d6e2c503bbdfdf4b6cf2de385453232ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 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劉家緯處長統計處 鄭敏祿處長法治處 鄭乃文處長私校退輔處金監理會賴俊楠參事監執行秘書國教署 彭富元署長青年發展署"},{"start":2095.958,"end":2112.512,"text":"陳奕聰副署長法務部汪南軍參事內政部警政署刑事檢察局廖宗鴻警政監內政部警政署刑事檢察局偵查科邱俊榮股長那我們現在就來請提案委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2124.434,"end":2133.238,"text":"那如果沒有委員要進行提案說明我們現在就接著請教育部正部長進行口頭報告報告時間6分鐘不好意思好那請葛如君委員"},{"start":2147.637,"end":2166.462,"text":"好 謝謝召委那本席在這邊進行這個運動彩券發行條例第二條第21條的簡要提案說明我想要健全運動產業的發展也就是要維護運動競技賽事的公平性那為此立法院在去年底修正了運動產業發行條例的第七條之三"},{"start":2167.322,"end":2181.258,"text":"對於妨害運動賽事公平之人最重可處7年有期徒刑更可併科罰金1000萬元到3000萬元如果意圖盈利最高更可以處10年徒刑並可5000萬罰金以強化我國各項運動的防堵機制避免非法遷堵要來再次傷害我們的運動產業"},{"start":2189.307,"end":2200.662,"text":"運動競技的賽事又是運動彩券發展條例之投注標的應該要配合運產條例來修法那為此本企業提案修正運產條例的第21條將利誘同樣納入處罰的樣態並將意圖盈利"},{"start":2206.61,"end":2227.645,"text":"也納入加重處罰的要件以維持整體的法制秩序那另外呢建議運動部將於今年8月有機會來成立並且作為專責推動國家體育發展的機關為此本席提案修法將運採條例之主管機關改為運動部以符合中央行政機關組織基準法第29條之規定謝謝好謝謝謝謝葛國軍召委的"},{"start":2237.574,"end":2242.757,"text":"好 我們再進行教育部鎮部長的口頭報告報告時間六分鐘主席 各位委員 女士先生大家早安 大家好今日本人應邀列席就運動採檢花型條例條文修正草案進行報告"},{"start":2267.706,"end":2291.634,"text":"請向各位委員長期對運動採建發展的關心跟指導表達衷心的感謝並請各位委員繼續給予教育部業務督導跟支持請說明如下我們都知道運動採建發行是為了我國推展體育運動重要的推手發行運動採建的政策目的"},{"start":2292.932,"end":2298.36,"text":"就在募集社會資源益助體育運動的發展活絡我國運動產業運動產業發行到現在已經邁入第17年"},{"start":2307.099,"end":2331.355,"text":"我們看到去年一一三年銷售金額突破六百四十億元引以達七十點三億元溢出到運動發展的基金以創立年的新高因此健全運動採建環境維護運動賽事的公平基本上就是本部所重視也應該要做的政策"},{"start":2332.844,"end":2360.81,"text":"本次感謝委員的一個關心大家對這個以運動產業發展條例第七條第三所定的構成要件跟行度那麼祈求在這一次的運動採檢能夠修正在第21條以第21條之一希望在構成要件跟行度能夠一致共同來維護運動競技賽事的一個公平以及"},{"start":2362.808,"end":2384.252,"text":"運動產業的健康發展那麼本部針對委員所提的各項各草案的回覆在第二條條文的修正部分本部回覆說明如下有關修正主管機關為運動部建議維持現行條文並配合運動部成立期程再以公告變更管轄方式辦理其次在第21條條文修正草案部分"},{"start":2391.121,"end":2407.961,"text":"因應114年1月3日公布增訂公布運動產業發展條例第七條之三明定以非法之方法妨害運動競技賽事之公平者執行者及意圖營利三人以上共同犯者加重處罰規定"},{"start":2409.403,"end":2432.96,"text":"考量運動採建一屬運動產業之一環為使罰則之構成要件及行度一致本部凝聚本修正草案以維護運動採建交易之公信力有效遏止人為因素介入採建發行提升運動採建投注標的賽事的公平性委員所提方向與願板一致建議採願板"},{"start":2434.71,"end":2453.125,"text":"二有關現實條文第四項所規定主動配合調查規定部分考量已有刑事訴訟法相關強制處分規範可知應用隱匿或抗拒部分並已有刑法第135條第165條及第168條有關抗拒公務執行隱匿關係他人刑事被告案件之證據"},{"start":2461.852,"end":2473.321,"text":"及偽證罪等刑事處罰規範可知應用及疑似不惡法原則與適切區分刑事處罰及行政處罰原於與刪除在21條"},{"start":2478.755,"end":2496.381,"text":"之一的修正條文草案方面現實條文之第四項所訂定應主動配合調查規定部分考量也已有刑事訴訟法相關強制處分規範可知應用隱匿或抗逆部分並已有刑法第100"},{"start":2498.038,"end":2518.857,"text":"三十五條第一百六十五條及第一百六十八條有關抗拒公務執行隱匿關係他人刑事被告案件之證據及偽證罪等刑事處罰規範可知應用也同樣基於一事不惡罰原則於逝卻區分刑事罰則及行政處分原意已刪除"},{"start":2520.241,"end":2548.28,"text":"運動採建發行條例為推動運動採建發行之反映依據運動採建發行為我國推展運動採建重要的推手發行運動採建之政策目的在募集社會資源益助體育運動的發展活絡我國運動產業感謝委員的關心及支持運動產業的發展也期待透過行政頁板以本次各委員提案完備相關法制"},{"start":2550.761,"end":2562.005,"text":"運動產業發展並提供國人優質投資環境遏止人為介入採建交易維護運動競技賽事的公平以上報告感謝各位委員敬請指導 謝謝大家好 謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告那我們現在再請羅廷偉委員進行提案說明好 謝謝召委"},{"start":2579.639,"end":2585.913,"text":"我想在這一次呢,非常感謝趙偉,我今天也有看到臉書上呢,有這個相關的一個"},{"start":2588.636,"end":2613.252,"text":"團體也有標記我們所有的委員也有召委感謝今天召委排審那鑒於運動競技賽事的公平性攸關整個運動產業的發展為現行的法規對於非法手段影響整個賽事公平的行則尚有強化的空間我想我們一直都在努力但是健全運動彩券的一個發行並且維護運動彩券投注我們在這個標的一個競技賽事的公平性參考運動產業發展條例第七條之三"},{"start":2616.454,"end":2630.475,"text":"也已經針對妨害禁忌禁忌的公平行為明確定立刑責並對意圖營利三人以上共同犯罪加重其結果犯情形我們加重處罰考量運動彩券的意味我們運動"},{"start":2632.377,"end":2652.984,"text":"產業的一環 為確保罰則能夠構成要件的一個刑度能夠一致所以在這一次我們有這個第21條 第21條之一的修正草案與運動產業法案條例我想進行是一致性的一個修正增列以利誘之方法 妨害投注標的一個運動競技賽事的公平以及整個刑罰"},{"start":2654.4,"end":2672.392,"text":"以及意圖營利犯罪加重結果犯的一個刑罰藉此強化運動裁判員的一個公信力我想這是一個極為重要的一個一環所以我們大家在今天來審這個草案也是希望能夠杜絕防範相關的干預確保運動賽事的一個公平以上 謝謝謝謝 謝謝羅廷偉委員的提案說明"},{"start":2678.379,"end":2704.099,"text":"那剛剛鄭部長口頭報告那我們其他機關所提的相關資料也請一併參閱那我們現在就來進行詢答那每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員若臨時停案也請於上午10點30分前提出那並在列席委員會的委員林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2705.34,"end":2710.907,"text":"首先我們請發言人第一位柯志恩委員質詢好我們謝謝周二位是不是先首先請鄭部長好有請鄭部長"},{"start":2730.919,"end":2737.882,"text":"委員好部長好我首先想請教部長114年教育部的解凍案到底有幾案那什麼時候要送過來解凍謝謝委員關心解凍案有20案"},{"start":2753.895,"end":2765.325,"text":"我跟部長講22案是屬於書面然後10案是屬於專案然後你們什麼時候要送過來特別是書面報告你們通常找書面報告就好請問你們寫好了嗎因為公務員報告確實我們在這裡邊因為還有一個大院所通過的一個統三還有一個636"},{"start":2777.282,"end":2797.42,"text":"所以在這一個部分我們內部到底有關教育部在這一個部分我們怎麼樣有一個好 部長我只是提醒22個書面報告因為你們都說序算非常的重要可是我怎麼發現皇帝不急怎麼急死太監你知道去年教育部什麼時候把解凍案送到立法院去年我當召委"},{"start":2800.404,"end":2821.307,"text":"我告诉部长3月15号你就送过来所以说呢你到目前为止还不见终于我今天有看到刚刚才经过的时候看到交通部已经排解冻案了所以呢我只是希望说如果你们真的觉得这预算非常的重要特别是书面包括这么样子可以很快解决的部长真的赶快送过来吧"},{"start":2821.767,"end":2846.05,"text":"不要挪來挪去你會讓我們真的有時候會徹底懷疑是不是要累積箱罵本啊否則的話我覺得教育部應該很中立既然別的部會都已經開始排了部長你如果覺得錢解凍很重要的話不要只是在下箱演講的時候不斷告訴我們如何凍如何刪這個是教育部本身可以趕快來做我們也可以任何來配合的大家就一起相忍來為我們教育部來做一個更好的這個完整的說明吧好不好"},{"start":2846.67,"end":2850.378,"text":"好 部長這是很重要的接下來我們是不是也請署長也請上來好 請鄭署長"},{"start":2854.011,"end":2879.906,"text":"那我们今天是来谈到跟有关运动产业相关的一个问题我先首先请教一下特别是署长你2025年的中华族女足邀请赛我们来跟纽西兰战然后呢在4月8号本来在我们高雄的男子体育场对不对举行但是呢会堪之后他们发现这个场地实在是太糟糕了所以他们决定弃赛我觉得对我们来说这是一个非常丢脸的一件事情好不容易等到了有一个这么样的国际的大赛"},{"start":2880.586,"end":2896.544,"text":"然后呢我觉得说这个部分里面呢署长你什么时候知道这样的一个状况去年开始你难道没有对足协有任何一点的要求吗为什么让这件事情能够让国际都看到这样子的一个状况竟然是场地不合格署长好"},{"start":2897.25,"end":2913.195,"text":"保安委員我在4月1號就已經知道這件事情了那其實去年對阿曼那一場其實我們就在台北典禮場我就已經要求在賽前3到4週就應該要進行加強的草皮養護這例如SOP這一次他們技術部門跟競賽部門其實男子組"},{"start":2916.796,"end":2939.99,"text":"對 但是其實男子足賽場的部分要符合國際規準你也知道有點辛苦真正是台北跟高雄各有一場只是呢那時候我們的檔期已經被借出去了通財這種國際賽事不是你說要比賽之前的就要做草皮養護這真的有點太慢了你看三月的時候你就已經知道你去年九月申請你就已經知道我們三月的檔期已經在這個地方已經不可能了"},{"start":2942.572,"end":2948.718,"text":"所以你現在還是以這個男子足球場來做然後你再看看這個狀況下面的這個照片4月2號的現場是這樣子你們花了30萬時間4月6號的現場是如此但是這個樣的現場對於所謂的國際賽事來說怎麼可能而且我還要特別提醒一下我們來看看一般的國際賽事要長成這個樣子"},{"start":2964.835,"end":2991.533,"text":"署長你應該知道長成這個樣子那當初他們借不到的時候難道你們沒有想過男子足球場的整個的狀況嗎你們難道沒有想過嗎我覺得你到時候前三個月三個禮拜的時間再來叫人家做草皮養護這已經是不符合不歸主的你光是一個草皮養護又養護不好怎麼可能呢這怎麼樣面對一個國際大賽這是很辛苦的一個事情嘛對不對所以呢你看我還是要特別強調為什麼因為這是女足你知道女足她們"},{"start":2992.493,"end":3012.564,"text":"紐西蘭來到什麼地方來做練習賽嗎?在哪裡做練習?在男子文中這邊沒有,他們在練習的時候是到完全一個非正式場地的一大足球場好不好你這樣對我們來說又是個女足我們才告訴他要性別平等是把我們女足這個部分裡面覺得因為它是女性的足球嗎?所以才給我們這樣的待遇嗎?是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":3015.725,"end":3043.073,"text":"其實我們在之前我已經跟主席講過不管是他的裝備他的出場費以及他的整個住宿的部分都應該要男女一致這部分我們之前也警告過他們所以這次我們會再強烈的要求他們未來一定要做好你沒有任何的懲處或什麼嗎這件事情真的是讓我們好不容易有一個這樣子這次的賽事我們基本上就是沒有做核定了那以後要怎麼樣改進你只能強力要求嗎跟委員報告我非常同意委員的看法這是丟臉"},{"start":3045.492,"end":3053.821,"text":"沒有什麼好講的一個國際運動賽會竟然會出現這樣一個情況就是丟臉我想我們提議書叫深切要在整個內部要深切檢討對於我們運動團隊裡邊應該給予有一個事情特別國際賽會有一個SOP在事前到一個"},{"start":3066.534,"end":3088.312,"text":"什么样的一个时间我们要确保他所有的部分要做都应该要是其实严格的强烈的要求而且这种赛事不是只有前几个礼拜才去做这件事情而且你根本就是前一两年的时候大家才有办法来做包括场地的租借如果男子球场不行的话你还可以有很多地方来做一个选项所以这个东西一定要记取教训这个"},{"start":3089.633,"end":3105.682,"text":"接下來我們要看看 部長剛剛已經講了非常大的一個重話我們要繼續教訓接下來我們來看看關於運動這個部分裡面我還是要強力的提醒一下 當初我們做這樣子但是我們有一個附帶決議 我不曉得署長還有沒有印象這時候我們是要求體育署必須要對於規範的職業運動賽事還有企業聯想的具體定義"},{"start":3111.525,"end":3114.368,"text":"還有關於這個賭博的信託基金的相關規定應該在三到六個月完成我想請問目前的進度到哪裡了報委員我們第一版的草案已經出來那我們下禮拜還有第二次的會議那我們持續在滾休當中我們會在期限之內把它提交"},{"start":3128.8,"end":3150.278,"text":"六个月之内但是我告诉你有很多球员的公会跟我反映目前为止只有职棒公会目前为止还稍微有个样子其他的部分里面特别帮助是有关于防堵基金的部分目前为止都是空的球员也认为公会也就觉得没有被你们体育署有联络过这是怎么一回事"},{"start":3150.718,"end":3155.04,"text":"你可不可以把你們所聯絡的工會條列給我看一下因為我們工會的陳情告訴我們目前為止有關於這個相關的一個執法的部分裡面你們沒有很積極我只是很要很納悶的問一下到底為什麼不積極是多一事不如少一事還是有什麼至愛難行的可能"},{"start":3170.006,"end":3184.433,"text":"方委員其實在這個信託的部分我們現在除了希望球團跟球員他們可以有一個自己的一定比例的提撥之外那球員公會這邊希望我們體育署這邊再又透過基金或是國家公帑這邊來一起來"},{"start":3186.274,"end":3205.507,"text":"所以我跟你说你等一下事后今天完之后请给我看你们所联络的公会的名单哪一个公会你们拜访过目前的进度到底是如何现在已经到三读通过现在已经过四个月了距离我们刚说的期限大概只剩下一个半月我现在在一个半月里面如书长所说的能够把它拿出来而且呢我还是一样一定要拿"},{"start":3206.368,"end":3233.007,"text":"到时候呢我不希望你到时候跟国体法一样是拿出一套超越魔法解释的执法来变异形式我觉得这个部分你们可能要请体育署要严格的加强最后最后一点点的一分钟的时间我还是要问一下有关于禁药的问题因为这个东西是非常多很多人来反映特别是我们这位真的是未来的明日之星这个包含这个特别是我们的曹家宜的事件大概署长都已经有所闻吧是"},{"start":3233.447,"end":3239.79,"text":"曹家儀的部分他就是因為在服用了日本的大陣感冒藥這是我們每個人都要的他是因為這樣然後沒有通過藥檢他自請要求他自己可以自我停賽可是我還是要提醒署長我們這個WATA的這個機構當中我們台灣唯一的禁藥的檢定中心那時候曾經對曹家儀是做出他通過藥檢的這我們唯一藥檢的地方認為他是通過藥檢結果被國際中心認為他不違反的那請問這個東西哪有落差這麼大"},{"start":3263.399,"end":3283.313,"text":"其實這個他在曹家宜這個證書是他在發生事情之後才上網去上課然後才取得證書那這一部分我覺得還是要選手還是要負完全的責任因為在藥檢這件事情職業選手他們其實都知道那在賽前其實他是賽前吃的感冒藥不是在賽中所以他懲處相對比較輕但是這部分我們還是"},{"start":3283.933,"end":3304.291,"text":"我觉得还是因为我目前只有唯一的一个单位这个部分里面呢其实有关于在通报的部分在任何的部分里面我觉得还是要非常的严格的来做一个要求因为过去这样的一个中心其实也出了一些我以前质询过你的也出了非常多的事情所以今天再加上曹嘉瑜的事情我还是再一次的提醒对于静药的检测的部分"},{"start":3304.611,"end":3328.182,"text":"有关我们选手未来出赛的一个权益很多时候你说他要负起完全责任但是身为我们这个体育署的一个角色还是负责有相关的一个部分我们都有在辅导他的所以说这个部分里面我还是说利用这个时间还是要再次提醒署长好不好好谢谢好谢谢柯石恩委员好部长署长请回我们接下来请万美玲委员"},{"start":3334.585,"end":3337.082,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們有請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長"},{"start":3345.083,"end":3369.791,"text":"委員早安部長早我想在4月3號這個川普宣布了一個對台32%的關稅這是非常震撼但是這個前夕有另外一個新聞我相信教育部也看到就在3月31號美國貿易代表署在2025年對外貿易障礙評估的報告當中直接點名台灣限制美豬美牛馬鈴薯基改食品等政策是不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":3370.771,"end":3389.546,"text":"甚至於他直接要求我國要取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食品的禁令那我知道教育部在第一時間也看到這個新聞那我非常非常的這個重視也非常在意這樣的一個講法那我們來看到部長也很了解這個我們在學校衛生法第23條第三項也有明文規定學校這個供應膳食要優先不管是我們在地的這個農產這個農業產品那並且最重要是這一條"},{"start":3399.614,"end":3423.2,"text":"禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其粗極加工品這在我們學校衛生法第23條當中明定的非常的清楚那當然在這一次這個美國的要求當中我覺得我要讚許一下教育部我想部長第一個你回覆的非常的這個快速第二個你也回覆的非常的明確也就是說您的回應是說依法禁用並落實"},{"start":3425.641,"end":3443.974,"text":"那将来会透过这个韩式这个基改食品的范围修正午餐的这个西约饭本等等我想这是值得赞许的那但是呢部长我们来看过去我国也有曾经禁止过美牛美猪有相关的这个限制可是呢也都在美国强大压力之下被迫做了开放"},{"start":3444.634,"end":3458.365,"text":"那現在我們看到美國這32%所謂承受懲罰性的關稅擺在眼前那對我們的影響非常的大那我們也看到那政府現在不斷的宣布說我們要加碼採購包括軍火農產品電子資訊石化天然氣等等產業看起來我們有在一路退讓並且希望"},{"start":3463.669,"end":3489.446,"text":"能夠討好或是更和諧的跟美國相處所以我非常的憂心我們政府到最後會不會退道拿學童的健康來作為談判的籌碼尤其是在基改的部分還有美豬標示的部分會影響我們孩子的營養午餐我們現在看到鄭麗君副院長即將要率團去美國來做談判部長今天本席希望在這裡能夠得知你確切的態度你身為我們全國孩子的大家長"},{"start":3490.146,"end":3504.155,"text":"你會不會繼續來捍衛我們孩童的健康對於我們現在現行的學校衛生法在第23條這個部分尤其是禁止這個基因改造的食品進入這個學校園內你一樣會依法來做這是第一個問題第二個"},{"start":3505.896,"end":3524.184,"text":"那一樣的問題教育部現在版本的這個學校公參法的草案正在行政院來研修那這個針對禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其初級加控品的這個部分那本席想要了解有沒有明確的放在研修的條文之中因為如果沒有的話我覺得他非常堪憂以上兩點讓部長做個說明"},{"start":3527.197,"end":3548.887,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個基改的一個實務是不是會影響到我們學童的一個健康那我想我們學校衛生法裡面23條當然有規範那我也要利用這個機會跟委員報告許多科學的研究 生技醫學的一些研究事實上全世界都投入相當大的一些研究的機會在研究"},{"start":3550.268,"end":3558.711,"text":"有越來越多的一些證據包括剛才部長我們可不可以比較明確告訴我一下因為待會還有體育署的問題在一個喜多我們很多的科學研究證據如果它對人體它事實上是越來越多的證據是不會產生傷害我想就人才的培育或者在教育的場域我們怎麼樣適度的讓這個社會大眾知道然後有喜多的一些所以部長我聽您的意思是說"},{"start":3576.678,"end":3579.72,"text":"您可能要有條件去調整學校衛生法第23條基改進入校園的這個部分嗎我現在沒有特別的態度我的意思是說以我目前來講當然學校衛生法那我們在使用優良的這個國產豬或是國有的一些有這個3Q"},{"start":3596.567,"end":3625.467,"text":"那個3Q3張1Q3張1Q的這樣一個標章裡面優良的一些這個所謂的部長那我就請教你對於現在美國所說的這個點名台灣限制美豬美牛馬鈴薯基改食品政策是不必要的貿易障礙要求我們解除這個部分你會同意嗎還是在鄭麗君部長即將要去美國之前你也會強烈的反應說我們不同意西藏孩子的健康讓更多的科學證據如果我先"},{"start":3626.047,"end":3628.971,"text":"安照科學的證據這件事情我想以後有很大的討論空間你先聽我把話講完我希望這題不要浪費太多的時間因為等一下不知道這個召委還會不會給我時間我們要討論足球的部分"},{"start":3643.55,"end":3669.244,"text":"但是這題非常的重要我相信我們所有教文的委員正在關心中您剛剛所提的這些東西我們目前的法令限制得很清楚嘛非常清楚除非你修法那麼如果我們現在並沒有修法而在這一次美國祭出懲罰性的32%關稅我們有很多地方必須要讓步我想在必要讓步的地方其實國人能夠體諒但是要拿學生的健康去交換就我本人啦我是抵死不從啦"},{"start":3669.904,"end":3696.555,"text":"所以呢部長原本我剛剛還有稱讚您說為了我們孩童的健康你在第一時間回應我們一切依法禁用但現在今天聽您的態度好像不是那麼肯定您能不能說清楚一點我想我的態度已經很清楚我們現在的法令跟我們現在實際的這個營養午餐把這個好的一個食材放在這個企業的規範目前就是這樣做但是我要跟委員報告你還是會欣賞我的"},{"start":3697.836,"end":3716.602,"text":"我還是會欣賞你的但你要有讓我欣賞的作為嘛我希望他是有更多的科學證據而不是要因為這樣來部長我想這樣好不好這個部分呢我希望現在在我們法令一樣是這樣規範嚴格的去保障我們孩子營養午餐的健康當中那我們不能改變"},{"start":3719.183,"end":3735.323,"text":"所以鄭麗君副院長即將要去美國談判我覺得這條底線一定要守住我們絕對不可以犧牲孩子的健康去做任何的交換因為任何東西交換回來都挽救不了學生的健康我想我們絕對不會交換學童的健康我跟委員的健康不然我希望你讓我繼續欣賞你謝謝那我們請鄭世忠署長"},{"start":3739.937,"end":3763.256,"text":"請鄭部長 鄭署長這透露出什麼這是透露出什麼玄機所以我們運動部非常有可能現在就要恭喜鄭部長趙委是說我也可以當運動部部長你這個救援的有點牽強喔這個會後我想大家要來了解一下是我們已經知道大概就是要可以恭喜鄭署長變鄭部長了是吧"},{"start":3765.523,"end":3780.645,"text":"包委沒有這回事目前沒有這回事好那謝謝昭偉今天有美顏好 昭偉不好意思等一下多給我一分鐘的時間一樣我們現在來談我們就是中華女足跟這個牛心蘭女足剛才我們那個柯政委員也有提到不過我真的要提一下"},{"start":3781.306,"end":3788.674,"text":"因為我們在上一屆的時候就有提過這個男子足球場其實在109年5月興建的時候赤字3.5億但當時我們體育署也有補助了2.38億也是高達將近七成其實體育署補助的可是後來其實在驗收的時候不符合這個國際標準"},{"start":3799.605,"end":3824.143,"text":"那既然不符合國際標準那為什麼足協辦這種國際賽事呢還要去選擇一個不符合國際標準的場地這第一個那第二個呢那事實上本來啊如果還有這個台北田徑場跟這個高雄國家體育場可是看起來租界不到然後呢這個場地現在男子足場又不符合國際的標準那為什麼足協在場地還沒有確認之前呢就倉促的去來邀約進行這個友誼賽讓國家變成說人家講說這是一個國恥啊可不可以說明一下"},{"start":3828.686,"end":3851.684,"text":"報告委員 這個球場它本身在副球場它是人工草皮後來在去年有通過國際的認證通過了嗎對 主球場它本身是天然草皮它是不需要任何的認證它就可以進行國際賽事但是它這一次的問題主要是在草皮養護這部分沒有做好所以才會造成這個大賽的問題很好 那既然這個署長您都知道說是草皮養護不好喔您都知道這個問題那我們這個草皮養護應該是誰來做這責任在誰呢"},{"start":3856.167,"end":3885.337,"text":"報告委員這部分還是要足協在比賽之前幾個月至少一個月至少都已經要開始做加強草皮養護很好如果署長你也知道那請問一下足協會不會知道這麼基本的一個概念報告委員其實我在去年三四月在台北田徑場那一場對阿曼我救營輔導他們就已經有做要求那這一次他們沒有做好這部分我們會再做懲處所以署長你要求無法要求要求不動這個足協是這樣意思嗎我覺得是他們技術部門跟競賽部門本身真的在這件事情真的沒有做好了"},{"start":3885.953,"end":3904.223,"text":"那不可以這樣子啊這都是一種很基本的概念對不對這麼基本的概念有概念不落實沒有用嘛對不對所以這一次我覺得這個是一個非常難看的一個狀態啦那再來你看喔其實我們台灣女子足球的這個足球員的一個公會他們也有提出來說像這一次我們這個國家代表隊他們的這個球員等等教練啊"},{"start":3907.245,"end":3933.536,"text":"也都沒有獲邀不管是進行相關的這個球賽的事項討論或是現場去看一個場地的一個狀況其實他們也覺得非常不受到重視那當然就衍生出來說這個代表隊本身還有一些其他的裝備還有專業能力後勤的資源等等不足說真的我們要發展我們的體育其實相關的支持是很重要所以署長你有沒有去了解那足協不邀請代表隊來討論場地或者是給予其他支持的原因是什麼"},{"start":3933.916,"end":3952.022,"text":"包括委員女子隊的總教練是在現場他有來那後勤的部分我有去也是責難足球協會在後勤的部分既然知道是廉價就不應該這麼晚才訂飯店應該要提早訂就不會訂到義大這麼遠的地方去所以這部分我們都有要求"},{"start":3952.302,"end":3975.66,"text":"市長我很沒有辦法接受耶這些事情還需要你來叮囑這都是一個辦大型賽事本來就應該要知道的一些這個概念了已經不是細節了所以我覺得這個事情我覺得要叮囑以後相關重大賽事絕對不可以發生這樣的事情何況這個場地本身還知道有很多青少年的這個指標的賽事在這個地方我覺得對球員的傷害是很大的啦所以我想我們體育署馬上就要變成運動部了"},{"start":3978.942,"end":3997.873,"text":"那看起來呢 這個寧接部長好像也有那麼一點端倪出現喔那未來喔 我們每年掌握200億的體育預算喔我們希望喔 這相關的事情絕對不能再發生這個署長或者未來有希望的部長 您可以承諾嗎幫委員 這部分我們會盡最大的努力去防止這種事情再次發生啦好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝萬美玲委員"},{"start":4001.988,"end":4009.211,"text":"好署長部長請回接下來我們請接下來我們請劉書斌委員有請部長跟政署長好有請部長署長委員好"},{"start":4027.819,"end":4034.182,"text":"部長跟署長好那在進入我原來的運動彩券的問題之前我就想詢問一下在新竹市的這個市立棒球場它經歷在2023年的時候被有挖到大密寶在下面那因為後來廠商的這個包商他們就做一個凍結保全證據的需求那今年又要解凍我們看到3月5號的新聞當中已經呈現出來了它還是下面在10到15公分下有這樣的"},{"start":4054.891,"end":4069.791,"text":"這些不該有的這些建築的工地的材料那我想問的是說那現在他當然進入到檢調部分可是像在教育部現在目前主管就在體育的部分還包括的是署長這邊遇到的這個問題上面怎麼樣的去因應"},{"start":4073.215,"end":4088.79,"text":"它在未來的後續的把它整複尤其是它十二億的錢當中已經花了九億出去了那這問題都還沒有解決是不是在經費上面或者是在未來的再把它整複成一個作為我們全國球的時候一個重要的場地要運用的時候你有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":4090.672,"end":4111.023,"text":"報告委員這個場地的確當時在施工方面在設計方面的確是有缺失當時體育署也提出有提出建言那但是沒有被新竹市府給接受當時是哪個新竹市政府那個時候是應該是林市長的時代不過不管怎麼樣他後來在整個過程當中因為需要第三方的"},{"start":4111.803,"end":4128.312,"text":"土木技師工會來做一個雙方的鑑定因為畢竟是有市府設計以及包商之間的一個爭議所以這些時間拖了很長那最近結束了那現在他們在新竹市府他們也負起責任來把整個的工程重新再整個重新翻起來重新做所以需要一點時間"},{"start":4129.485,"end":4158.017,"text":"對那你是不是可以承諾說像現在的這個情況下就是12億已經9億拿掉了這部分未來您到報委員我們現在是尾款大概5%還沒有支付那這部分是目前我們先扣著但說實在這種事情中央補助之後地方是來執行所以這部分還是一直不斷的去督促地方要如期把它完成那他們也不夠錢怎麼辦他們也的確有在進行所以不是沒在進行所以這件事這真的需要時間因為之前是不是可以承諾說如果"},{"start":4159.117,"end":4180.697,"text":"新竹市的棒球場他未來需要再追加預算等等包括五年內我們沒有辦法追加預算那這次完全是市府他必須自身承擔因為畢竟是市府之間的公務相關的問題那如果這是可是市府這一部分是整個國家的預算的部分怎麼樣的處理就是說如果這樣變成說造成的是跟廠商的索賠是嗎"},{"start":4182.239,"end":4203.602,"text":"這是他們之間的官司的問題我們是補助,我們不是主辦所以主辦還是新竹市政府好,那就這樣子了解,謝謝好,謝謝委員好,那我們繼續進入到運財的這部分它是非常是重要的,是可以說是我們的運動的這樣子的一個運動發展基金到第二頁的部分好,那現在我們可以看到它這個第二頁的部分"},{"start":4206.516,"end":4229.182,"text":"第二頁的部分我們看到那這邊我們看到它是盈餘已經大概670億左右的這樣的一個銷售額那它的盈餘大概有70億當中那我們看到在下一頁好嗎就看到說呢它有一個很大的特色在於說運動彩券的還有經銷商、代理人跟庫員他們都有具備的這個78%有運動專業的知識那怎麼去看到這樣的運動專業知識的一個呈現啊你們怎麼去發現到的"},{"start":4236.636,"end":4253.403,"text":"包委員我們分三個部分第一個有運動員他優秀運動員他可以來當經銷商第二個他大部分的經銷商他們都會去試著去考裁判證教練證之類的那最重要的第三個就是他們的經銷商會有一個職業的訓練他們會針對一些"},{"start":4256.964,"end":4268.676,"text":"運採相關專業 比方說怎麼下注啦 怎麼玩法啦 去教客人啦這部分那適合他們的專業 他們是有受訓的這樣的一個人才的把它保留下來是非常好的那我們在下一頁看看就是說113年來講的話呢它的實際的盈餘 銷售是643億那盈餘是70多億"},{"start":4277.265,"end":4292.37,"text":"那這些部分的話怎麼去運用到你當初就是要在運動發展基金當中的那幾項內容怎麼去做分配比例那當然還第二個問題在於說它佔了十分之一的盈餘才作為運動的基金那這部分成本有這麼高嗎"},{"start":4294.144,"end":4322.405,"text":"就是十分之九都碰到到其他部分在運用部分我們主要是針對人才培育國際賽事的部分這兩個是我們目前最大的支出那事業創新研發部分我們是有去做融資的輔導但是這部分的確業務目前是比較沒有太多的發展那再來是營餘的部分占十分之一這是當時立法的時候因為我們畢竟這是有社會責任它不是它是特許行業因為畢竟賭博在台灣是不被允許"},{"start":4322.845,"end":4342.991,"text":"在特許行業之下它其實有社會責任在所以當時是10%進到運動發展基金由運動發展基金來支持我們我國家的運動人才的培育以及國際賽事的舉行好 那講到國際運動賽事我們看下一頁這地方的話它這樣子佔我國推廣整個體育經費的比例是多少打這個英語基本上它都是用在我國體育的推廣經費 百分之百"},{"start":4351.394,"end":4373.581,"text":"沒有我是說這個彩券運在我國所有的運動體育的部分一半那這樣子所以其實它也只有一半的這樣輔助因此可是你又前面十分之一像我們今年是158億的整體預算裡面大概有編了將近差不多80億左右是來自於運彩"},{"start":4375.27,"end":4391.611,"text":"OK 好那所以大型運動的國際賽事當然也是你現在所送的部分嘛所以這部分就是也是用到運材的營運事實上是有的有就是我剛剛講說人才培育及大型的國際賽事交流好那我們現在可能看看這部分再下一下下看一下這裡"},{"start":4393.288,"end":4398.473,"text":"好那另外一部分我們就看到是的確用到這個大型賽事的部分是好事情啦那我們又看到體育的部分是在全民運動這邊是好事情好那這邊有聽到說很多的運動的這個人口啊體適能啊等等的好傳統的優質體育文化的部分"},{"start":4409.423,"end":4427.087,"text":"那這些做全民運動當然是很棒的一個狀況像我們往下看的時候有一個很重要的問題在於說看到全民運動的人口比例在變成35點多是在增加當中那你全民運動這邊部分有沒有特別針對不同的分離化在做事情再下一頁好嗎沒關係 再下一頁"},{"start":4435.319,"end":4455.601,"text":"因為全民運動上是好事我剛才看到這邊看到35點多%是好的情況那可是每個人的年紀不同剛才有這個十幾二十歲的啊二十幾歲然後到六七十歲的七八十歲的這部分好那分離了這個部分全民運動有沒有有沒有特別去加強說他有一些不同的這個運動參與方案跟場域上面的一個策略"},{"start":4456.55,"end":4473.857,"text":"保委員這部分我們過去全民運動在推動的部分呢主要是靠公務預算那其實預算的部分的確有一些限制所以我們當然希望運動部成立我們主打的就是全民運動的推廣所以這部分我們在積極爭取更多的公務預算來投入那這個調查呢我們現在講整個整體的"},{"start":4475.637,"end":4503.871,"text":"我國規律運動人口比例是35%但是電話調查這些數據是有加權前跟加權後這屬於統計的問題因為每個年齡層他的接收到電話的人數都不一樣所以這是統計的一個加權比例去計算但整體來講就是35%但我們希望在接下來幾年能夠再有一些成長的進步的空間可是應該會有場域上面要不同的差異對 那全民運動來講最重要就是場域這一件事情也是我們目前比較不足的所以我們現在也做全面的盤點"},{"start":4504.992,"end":4520.997,"text":"接下來也會透過公務預算以及場域的修繕來進行還有校園開放目前我們教育部這邊教校園開放也是能夠幫助到全民運動這件事情好那我再問一下你剛才有說到我們的預算大概是未來現在是大概160億150億左右那未來說是可能到200億嗎高委員我們現在還在盤點因為畢竟還沒有送審"},{"start":4528.919,"end":4555.391,"text":"對 那我希望你能夠承諾 未來的時候就是從體育署升到體育部的情況之下 運動部他絕對是應該把台灣的這樣子一個優秀的體育人才 包括能夠帶動的國民的運動風氣 可是重點是提升到我們國家的一種體育的特性出來這個是發揚我們的國威這種情況 絕對是請你要注意到好不好 要請體育署或是未來的體育部要注意到謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":4558.314,"end":4564.798,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝劉淑冰委員部長 署長請回我們接下來請伍麗華委員謝謝主席 有請部長跟體育署長好 有請鄭署長 鄭部長委員好"},{"start":4582.661,"end":4611.222,"text":"部長好 署長好去年底 今年初呢有兩個國際賽事讓我們全民熱血沸騰有高度的光榮感那我當時呢也很興奮的把我們原住民參賽的這一些球棒這些球員我一個一個的把他們的足跡寫出來那我要說的是其實如果我們看數據"},{"start":4612.543,"end":4636.518,"text":"原住民在我們台灣 我們的人口佔比是2.5%不到但是如果我們看原棒協 他們提供的原住民選手佔中職選手的比例是高達42.4%可以說原住民的選手撐起我們整個職棒的半邊天"},{"start":4637.418,"end":4653.297,"text":"那如果說以去年十二強跟今年初的經典賽來看的話原住民的選手佔比高達百分之四十八點二就是一半所以我們想要講的就是比賽之後風光的背後"},{"start":4654.278,"end":4682.917,"text":"有一些問題想要請教育部體育署未來的運動部一起來幫幫忙因為我們看到我們有很多很多的選手我們以中職選手來講他們其實他們的平均的打球的一個年份是不到五年退役的平均年齡是28.7歲那這種不到30歲就退休那往後的日子要怎麼過"},{"start":4684.542,"end":4696.242,"text":"像我們舉這個統一師的這個職棒選手來講他是因為財務管理不當所以呢就立刻被快刀斬亂馬因為呢可能"},{"start":4699.008,"end":4715.336,"text":"他們免除後面的隱憂就決定了把他裁撤可是他後來去哪裡他只能去做板磨工他去統一旗下的7-11上大夜班真的是令人不勝唏噓這麼年輕"},{"start":4718.775,"end":4742.777,"text":"所以在這裡我要特別就是想要提到的就是我們常常講不可以使人跌倒我們應該要下定決心不做任何使人跌倒犯罪的事當他們跌倒其實制度也要檢討我們是不是也有這樣的一個共犯結構所以我們培育這麼優秀的選手我們來看一下"},{"start":4743.698,"end":4771.335,"text":"他們在國中我們的原住民棒球的體育生啊目前在111學年度是來到占比三成那為什麼我看到北部都會地區很多的棒球隊隊員啊他們都是從南部來的花東來的那麼小的年紀我也不知道他們到底是住在哪裡但是他們就是離鄉背井"},{"start":4772.844,"end":4796.989,"text":"可能是住在學校的某個地方可能是住在教練安頓的租的一個房子我不知道可是為什麼他們能夠招募到這麼多離鄉背井而來的孩子他們認為原住民吃苦耐勞他們可能認為家長他比較沒有意見所以我們招募了很多原住民的孩子加入各樣的一個球隊"},{"start":4798.243,"end":4806.555,"text":"可是我們來看他們的成績像這個2022年棒球體育生他的會考成績5C的比例達到36%"},{"start":4809.463,"end":4822.088,"text":"所以為什麼會這樣因為學校也不在意他的學科成績啊只在意他們出去比賽的成績啊甚至很多在畢業的時候為了讓他能夠畢業未來能夠U12 U18讓他畢業他給他考那個必勝卷就是一定可以及格的考試卷"},{"start":4830.871,"end":4858.709,"text":"所以非常非常的讓我們感到心疼那在這邊他們也有很多的問題啊例如說他們管教等不等於訓練等不等於體罰那他們這種長期受軍事化的管理結果到了中職之後職棒之後薪水突然之間變那麼高他也不知道要怎麼做財務管理然後整個軍事管理呢也趨向於尊重選手"},{"start":4859.91,"end":4863.718,"text":"所以我們這些體育班的球隊的孩子的訓練"},{"start":4865.066,"end":4893.492,"text":"我覺得是我們教育部跟未來的運動部要非常關心的地方所以呢包括他們接觸的人也是很大的問題宿舍的管理員他有沒有專業的素養我們的教練經常跟他有肢體的接觸基於訓練上的需要但是呢我們光是看監察院的報告或者是這兩年的新聞我們可以看到非常多涉嫌"},{"start":4894.432,"end":4913.877,"text":"性侵 猥褻 性騷擾 或者是施虐 施暴的這樣的一個狀況非常的頻繁所以我在這邊先請教一下我們的部長就是教育部針對這一些現在有沒有建立一些相關的機制"},{"start":4918.602,"end":4938.371,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我們這個運動人才的一個培養特別在原住民這個區塊我想我的心情跟這個委員是一樣的我們非常不捨一個從小喜歡運動甚至我們專業的一個判定他是有潛能的小朋友"},{"start":4939.011,"end":4946.733,"text":"他為了能夠在希望他這個生涯的一個發展能夠在他的一個潛能能夠開發能夠發光發熱但是我們卻犧牲了教育體制犧牲了對他的學習上知識上的相關的一些這個成長我想我們內部也已經有深切的一個檢討我們也期待說配合運動部以後我們的小學的這個體育班可能要考慮要廢止"},{"start":4967.68,"end":4992.266,"text":"那在階段性媒體之間所有的體育班的老師沒有資格放棄任何一個體育班學生的一個所有的學科上的一個學習這也是我想我們內部在討論而且一定會努力來這樣來朝這個方向謝謝部長我就是希望說以剛才的那位職棒球員來講如果他有別的學科專長"},{"start":4993.834,"end":4998.745,"text":"他就不會被迫我只能去做板磨工我只能夠到7-11上到夜班"},{"start":5001.475,"end":5029.656,"text":"我講的是這樣他們30歲以後的職涯生涯規劃我希望從國小所有的球隊都要來去做這樣的相關機制的檢討那希望能夠列入我們未來教育部的一個制度裡面那接下來請國教署那因為我們同樣關心我們的孩子所以部長我在上個禮拜我有接受一個請託台東"},{"start":5031.072,"end":5049.967,"text":"海端鄉來的族人他們的孩子是身心障礙而且是讀特幼班可是您看一下這樣的一個受傷的狀況家長去接的時候老師竟然跟他說是被椅子撞到"},{"start":5051.793,"end":5076.662,"text":"醫生跟他說不可能他隔天要求看監視器結果呢看到的都是沒有異狀的畫面他是一直到我這個是根據國教署提供的期程他是一直到被第一次入園調查的時候他才知道原來他的孩子真的有被施暴但是請看一下這個時程1月8號孩子受傷1月9號"},{"start":5080.816,"end":5091.269,"text":"教育處有通報但是家長不知道有受虐如常的帶孩子上學老師也還在結果到了1月20號審查小組決議受理"},{"start":5094.022,"end":5111.638,"text":"所以1月21那位老師學校給他停職然後直到2月11號才成立調查小組然後直到2月27號家長被調查小組叫來問話的時候他才看到監視器畫面原來我的孩子被施暴受虐的狀況這麼樣的嚴重"},{"start":5113.8,"end":5123.892,"text":"所以我想講的是什麼我們本來就知道按照我們教保相關人員的調查處理辦法是要兩個工作日內兩天內就要決定是否受理"},{"start":5124.997,"end":5146.85,"text":"可是學校既知道要通報又隱匿家長孩子受虐的事實然後審查小組到1月20號才決議受理2月11號才成立調查小組我覺得很明顯很明顯這個就是不當那如果說我們在這個地方我想要問"},{"start":5148.649,"end":5165.909,"text":"部長的就是 國教署的就是我這幾年全國各地接受很多地方來找立法委員陳情可是我真的從來都不知道到底中央對地方政府到底有什麼樣的監管的權利"},{"start":5167.345,"end":5183.978,"text":"這是我很困擾的地方不管是學前或是高中以下學校四個階段都有嚴正的處理辦法跟流程的規範我們在今天下班前跟委員會來報告"},{"start":5185.919,"end":5208.321,"text":"台東對於這個案子他各個流程走的依不依法有沒有合我們的規範那麼下班前跟您報告那麼第二這個事情在發生的時候馬上就行文去督導了所以以上對這個事情的關注以及對他依法的督導那麼在下班前好完整的跟委員做個回覆謝謝委員我要提的是說其實這一名教師"},{"start":5209.841,"end":5233.136,"text":"他在去年就有施暴的記錄但是沒有證據因為學校沒有裝監視器但是那一次之後家長強烈要求學校至少要裝監視器所以這一次我們才有辦法看得到施暴的畫面才有證據才能提告可是多少學校沒有監視器"},{"start":5235.404,"end":5240.217,"text":"多少學校不了了之當地方做這樣的調查的時候"},{"start":5241.328,"end":5263.783,"text":"我們的中央我們到底有沒有監管的一些機制懲處的機制我真的不知道各位報告都有了所以剛剛有您報告那個辦法它是授權執法的辦法它不是一般的職權命令而已所以它是全國各級以及各類型主管機關下的學校都得要適用所以我們用嚴正的這個辦法層級來督導的話可以處理到比較完善現在都比較完備了我們一一來檢視它的各個動作"},{"start":5272.37,"end":5284.41,"text":"這個班級有兩個正式老師有兩個助理教保員他們每天相處在一起八個孩子就有四個孩子這是國教署提供的就有四個小孩子受虐"},{"start":5285.728,"end":5308.365,"text":"那這些老師他們還持續的在這是家長很心痛的地方所以我希望我們要討論的是制度希望這個監管機制還有現在的監視器調閱辦法的不足監視器的不足還有怎麼樣的一個家長他求告無門求訴無門的時候他可以怎麼做那我想這個部分"},{"start":5309.265,"end":5323.949,"text":"剛才署長講得很清楚會提供我們書面報告好 那我在這邊就謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝吳麗華委員部長請為我們接下來請范雲委員感謝朝委一直非常的重視體育請坐 那個請署長好 有請鄭署長"},{"start":5340.083,"end":5352.83,"text":"委員長署長我想今天我們都是一起關心運動那可是就是我們的協會一直都有不少問題我覺得我們在監管上必須要加強下一頁這個畫面為什麼沒有辦法下一頁"},{"start":5356.712,"end":5383.226,"text":"這個部分是要告訴署長跟您請教一件事我們2024年9月舉重的世青賽明明我們有六個人是代表隊領選的結果結果最後卻只有三個人可以出賽等於是一半的選手有六名是正取的可是出賽的時候為什麼因為他直接失格連比賽都沒有辦法去"},{"start":5383.966,"end":5388.03,"text":"所以原因是因為選手不符合要檢規定被判失格然後呢然後我們的舉重協會禁藥防治基金會似乎在這過程中完全沒有協助是前一天才知道請問署長有掌握這件事情是為什麼嗎報告委員那這部分在"},{"start":5406.346,"end":5412.032,"text":"舉重的部分他們一個擔心法規就是在市警賽之前選手必須要至少兩次的要檢通過才能夠參賽那一般在賽前協會會通知基金會說我們的選手有這幾個有報名那請他們來做要檢"},{"start":5424.946,"end":5439.664,"text":"藥檢這邊他們要求選手做個人行蹤的登錄我想您可以不用解釋但原因是為什麼最主要是因為選手他在個人行蹤登錄他沒有好好的去更新他今天登錄了他隔天有行程變更他沒有去即時上網去變更就會造成藥檢人員找不到他"},{"start":5440.185,"end":5458.594,"text":"好 那個我這個有點問題喔 下一頁就是我認為這中間有一個失聯的問題啦那體育署就像您剛講的你們跟我們講的講法是選手個人的責任因為沒有去登錄我給您看一個我們辦公室的追蹤喔 下一頁那個第一個"},{"start":5459.494,"end":5471.159,"text":"我想確認的是舉協跟禁藥基金會有沒有漏接訊息這個部分您知道嗎包委員基本上舉協一定知道所以他才告訴基金會說有這樣子的報名的狀況跟要求署長那你再看我們整理的2024年他們選拔國手的時候一定要繳交行蹤這個行蹤填報才能夠就是有基本的資格什麼怎麼可能會有有填行蹤然後最後找不到人"},{"start":5487.265,"end":5498.12,"text":"因為它這個就是跟賽事無關的我今天去哪要有六個月之內要有檢測而且這是國際標準第二個就是舉鞋公布的時候9月9號到15號還去國訓中心"},{"start":5503.527,"end":5527.665,"text":"那個時候只剩三個月咧依照規定要六個月內檢測你只剩這些時間那舉協有沒有把名單給禁藥基金會叫他去檢測因為依照禁藥基金會的規定如果我到你說的時間你不在那裡這算違規一次一年只要三次違規就你跟我說你今天要去逛街我去那邊找不到你那這樣他就兩年之內就禁賽了所以是很嚴重的"},{"start":5530.427,"end":5557.167,"text":"那問題是舉協有把名單給禁藥基金會嗎報告委員就是他們有給他們才基金會才會知道說要要求選手繳交行蹤的填報資料但是填報完之後他會得到一個線上的一個帳號去登入Adams系統之後選手他有責任每天晚上他要去更新隔天他的行程而且他如果有更改他一定要馬上上網去更新這部分只有選手自己有辦法禁藥基金會去幾次沒有找到選手"},{"start":5558.127,"end":5586.445,"text":"兩次兩次然後選手就這樣子沒有資格了你不覺得這訓練問題很大嗎一般來講我們會要求其實我們都會希望教練能夠幫忙就是說當你發生第一次之後你應該每天晚上就要求選手把訓練行蹤更新國訓中心是我們國家的資源集訓七天到出賽前三天是說我們的就是舉重協會都不知道他們已經失格了嗎"},{"start":5587.245,"end":5593.875,"text":"包委員他們知道已經知道了應該知道了啦應該知道 這應該 你有問他們嗎 他們知不知道對啊 他們 他們有告訴選手他們就是被失格啦"},{"start":5599.963,"end":5621.29,"text":"不是 這個9月9號到15號還在那邊是9月18號的時候知道被出行所以他們之前都知道了還在那邊集訓報告委員這部分我回家看一下因為他們通知的時間到底是哪一天這部分我倒是沒有掌握到是 因為我覺得這裡面舉協有沒有再請禁藥基金會派案去做是可以補充的嗎除非你這樣講選手不能夠互相干涉"},{"start":5625.071,"end":5651.425,"text":"所以這整個是很透明的機制它不能互相干涉舉協不能去干涉基金會那完全是獨立的要檢因為事實上這部分我有個疑問當然你講就是說我認為舉協應該是可以再請禁藥基金會派案去做因為時間不夠那我認為這件事情不管是誰的責任下一頁真的要調查清楚因為舉重協會跟禁藥基金會每年零體育署跟運發金超過六千萬的補助"},{"start":5652.867,"end":5667.389,"text":"然後禁藥基金會是我們的官派組織嘛那只有它能夠做台灣只有它能夠做這個部分不是吧不一定說國際總會不會直接在台灣的比方說有些留學生他本身具有國際藥檢資格他也會請他幫忙做"},{"start":5668.613,"end":5687.135,"text":"這個部分我覺得有點疑點那就是說明明要去參加半年內就知道了為什麼就是找兩次不到然後就讓他喪失資格我想這個部分我們這件事情我們還是一再的強調選手我們會一再的宣導教育但是選手不能完全把這個責任免除"},{"start":5687.635,"end":5701.001,"text":"這件事情我一直跟所有群眾講這是你一定要負的責任你的個人行蹤一定要記得前一天也去更新這個沒有人可以幫他做這件事情了解那不管是誰的責任就是我想我們對這個答案有疑慮是不是請你們更仔細的調查好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":5703.342,"end":5706.943,"text":"還有兩分鐘我想再追問足協的事剛剛你的回答我還是不夠滿意我想問的是說明明這個草皮需要養護可是國際賽前難道不知道國際賽因為場地都被足協借了可是你看我們這邊整理出來的女藍4月1號到3月17到3月23還讓男足去國家隊集訓"},{"start":5727.709,"end":5735.752,"text":"這個是非常重度使用耶不是就要把一個合格的草地要搞壞了嗎這個足協為什麼這麼做包委員這是我不能諒解足協的地方他們的技術部門就是負責挑戰者背教練講習男足的集訓那技術部門跟競賽部門竟然沒有一個很像很好的聯繫那你不能諒解足協就這一件事而已嗎就是讓"},{"start":5748.857,"end":5756.703,"text":"紐西蘭女竹簡直就是不能接受人家飛來了發現場地不合格竹協有夠專業嗎如果專業他怎麼會事前不知道然後還讓對方飛過來我覺得這是行政怠惰所以這部分我們也要求竹協要做深刻的檢討那我跟你講怠惰不是只有這件事再往下"},{"start":5769.631,"end":5785.804,"text":"您看一下台灣男足近三年能夠用足場隊他們是非常重要我們的足場台北田徑場高雄國家體育場奇怪了男足每年都用足場女足五年上一次用足場是2019年"},{"start":5789.526,"end":5800.35,"text":"請問你知不知道男族跟女族的各自排名,署長知道嗎?女族明顯比男族好太多了這是您講的喔,不是我講的喔女族明顯比男族好太多女族的排名我們辦公室查的42名國際,男族166那為什麼,足協這樣子是不是嚴重的重男輕女?"},{"start":5813.055,"end":5837.967,"text":"報告委員我覺得這不是中南情侶啦是我們國家的A級的場地的確只有台北以及高雄不是那為什麼女足都排不到就是國家最好的場地然後上一次是五年前然後男足男足每年可以使用然後人家請了友誼賽那個是要算分數的欸還把場地給男足把場地搞壞報告委員台北跟高雄的場地在一年前就已經要預約了那他們11月才來對都要預約還出這個問題對啊就11月才來要來預約已經找不到場地了我不知道齁"},{"start":5840.828,"end":5862.643,"text":"我覺得我是沒有辦法接受這個答案所以主席明顯有不少問題請問您要怎麼處理那個署長報告委員我這部分當然主席我們要求他SOP的部分草皮養護一定要認真看待第二個我也跟高雄市政府來談他的中正體育場也要轉型成一個A級場地署長他不改善你怎麼辦"},{"start":5863.603,"end":5878.377,"text":"我們就是把他的整個款項扣款扣多少報委員我們每年花在足協的國際賽去年是一千八百萬但其他的一億多都是選手相關的我們不要講國際賽我們整體加起來足球學會一億五千萬元"},{"start":5879.778,"end":5908.081,"text":"他的權益如果我今天扣了他選手的權益就會受到影響我當然不希望影響選手可是足協也是一個壟斷性的組織嘛我們就只有一個嘛單一協會嘛沒有錯那你要想一個方法就跟我們大學我們要給他補助國教要給他補助你不想一個方法的話最後受傷的還是選手啊沒有錯 包委員除了行政書室再來場地的部分我們在努力來改善好 那剛剛這幾個部分就是說這四個部分那多久之內可以給本席一個報告"},{"start":5909.122,"end":5923.431,"text":"我們應該一個月內就可以給一個月內齁 四個問題齁 那我就不重複時間到了齁好 OK 好加油好 謝謝 謝謝范雲委員署長請回接下來請李昆城委員"},{"start":5934.699,"end":5937.465,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個體育署署長好 我請鄭署長"},{"start":5943.22,"end":5968.29,"text":"委員長因為剛剛這個范委員有問這個問題我就繼續問下去嘛其實這個本來這個跟紐西蘭女足應該是在昨天要比賽嘛對不對那後來因為場地的關係然後沒有辦法比賽那請教一下這個你哪時候知道說這個因為場地的關係沒辦法比賽4月1號紐西蘭女足是何時提出場地有問題的"},{"start":5969.33,"end":5997.35,"text":"他們在最後一天應該是4月5號那一天做最後的決定就是他們來的時候就發現場地有問題了對不對沒錯對所以早在4月1號之前他們就發現說場地有問題了但是那時候已經太慢了對太慢了那是誰的問題是竹鞋的問題是竹鞋的問題嗎對竹鞋他早就應該要把這個場地要在哪個場地要做比賽那場地的品質怎麼樣竹鞋是不是早就應該早在三到一個月之前就應該要加強養護了"},{"start":5998.371,"end":6025.808,"text":"他這個男子的這個足球場是哪時候預訂的他是在他11月決定要比賽他2月提交他的租用的證明給我們體育署他時間上是不是太慢了時間上是夠的但是他就是在比賽前一個月他沒有加強草皮養護這件事情2月份到3月份這個男子的足球場地是不是還陸陸續續都有在使用對但是一般這個草皮養護大概3到4週其實是有機會有足夠的"},{"start":6026.508,"end":6045.675,"text":"阿但是三月中還在使用阿對所以我說他三月其實他三月中開始都是足協自己的技術部門借的他應該就要互相溝通他就應該換去別的地方讓草皮好好休息來養護而不是繼續使用它而沒有做加強養護的這個動作所以沒有做到這一點嗎沒有錯丟臉阿對不對這是很丟臉是紐西蘭女足來台灣那等於是"},{"start":6052.147,"end":6061.746,"text":"雖然是友誼賽啦但是也是對我們這個女子足球有很大的協助畢竟人家的排名是比我們高的啊結果發現這種事情那紐西蘭女足會怎麼看我們"},{"start":6063.673,"end":6086.089,"text":"這很丟臉的事情我看竹協這個聲明也是不痛不癢啊他把這個場地的問題是怪到這個高雄市政府是不是這樣沒有 報告委員這個問題完全在竹協身上不在場地方對啊 是竹協他要先把這個場地先把它品質先把它控制好嘛不是跟高雄市政府有關係啊那怪到說這個什麼高雄市政府還有這個委辦的這一個那家公司沒有把這個"},{"start":6087.069,"end":6113.004,"text":"草皮的這個品質把他維護好這根本不是本末倒置啊包圍他的新聞稿應該沒有去怪罪廠地方啦應該是他自己的問題沒有錯啦好那同樣的問題齁那你認為這個足協這方面我剛剛有聽這個範圍委員問你就是說要怎麼樣去做懲處你說行政懲處就對了就扣款我們這部分我們打算目前我們在研議啦因為這一次的賽事我們可能打算就不核定給他們了"},{"start":6114.222,"end":6137.296,"text":"什麼意思?這場賽事我們其實原本有補助三百萬,但是我們這一場就不補助他們了。他就住宿他的所有相關的費用由他們自行承擔。所以就是說本來這一場補助三百萬扣掉,那其他的還有其他的組份嗎?因為我們去年在主寫的國際賽的部分,是差不多他們申請了一千八百萬左右。"},{"start":6138.256,"end":6157.561,"text":"你們給他經費是大概超過一億喔?對對 但其他的部分都是跟選手的培訓他的權益相關以及他的聯賽相關那我如果把那邊給扣掉其實犧牲的是選手的權益這部分我們省慎評估啦但是我們先把國際賽的部分我們先做懲處對 這足協就是綁著這些選手啦 對不對選手我們知道說經費不能夠扣"},{"start":6159.855,"end":6173.785,"text":"包委員那部分也是補助款其實那一次也是他們不會從裡面去獲利這部分沒有辦法所以至少這次的這個比賽本來要補助不給他們就對了那接下來呢包委員我們再要求他兩件部分第一個就是他的"},{"start":6175.774,"end":6202.163,"text":"SOP任何的比賽前一個月一定要進場做草皮加強養護第二個我們現在跟高雄市政府在協商希望中正體育場能夠轉型為A級的足球場地來降低他們整個高雄市的足球比賽的一個壓力因為目前只有兩個場地其實有辦演唱會幹嘛可能就沒有辦法所以我們希望中正體育場能夠來取代這樣子的一個增加多增加一個場地因為其實台灣能夠辦這個國際型的足球賽的場地有幾個"},{"start":6203.291,"end":6227.511,"text":"目前A級就台北跟高雄國家體育場而南梓它不是A級它是算在兩個國家同意之下它可以在這邊辦比賽但不是A級場地那台北是田徑場嗎它是A級場地對啊它是田徑場通常都共用啦對啊所以其實這也凸顯了台灣缺乏大型的足球賽事的場館啦對 報告委員我們其實都有邊境費但是各縣市政府都"},{"start":6228.376,"end":6251.128,"text":"不願意提出申請這部分也是我們目前比較為難的地方你們有編經費有有編經費 縣市政府沒有提出申請比方說我去年我去年公建計畫編了4億的足球的經費但是來申請只有一億多所以其實我本身那原因在哪裡我自己去拜託各縣市所以像新北市政府也沒有來申請就對了其實都有其實我們都有主動去跟縣市拜託說請你們為了我們足球的發展來申請場地"},{"start":6253.546,"end":6277.947,"text":"那我問一下新北市政府有來申請嗎新北市他們其實是過去是都有的啦但是包圍園我們有勘台的場地會面積真的比較大所以這部分的確縣市部分比較比較沒有沒關係署長你把那個資料給我好不好就是說你們有編了生意的經費是然後只有1億多地方政府來做申請一開始就1億多對你把這個資料來給我"},{"start":6280.289,"end":6282.37,"text":"今天是運採條例,21條之一的修正草案不論是院版或委員版本,大同小異"},{"start":6298.243,"end":6323.536,"text":"都是對於說這個針對意圖營利犯罪加重刑責那把這個強暴脅迫利誘等等呢希望都把它納進去我相信這個方向大概大家蠻有共識的啦我認為這個大概比較沒有什麼大問題但是我要請教你就是我們這個運彩發行條例的這個第六條它有提到說這一個運彩這個彩券的這個支出呢不得超過售出彩券總金額的78%"},{"start":6326.225,"end":6345.199,"text":"那也就是說 但是還有個段數可以做調整啊那也就是說 每賣出100塊大概只能提撥78塊作為獎金那我請問一下 這個有沒有機會再去做調整就是說讓這個 就像一般的民眾他有更高的意願來買這個運動彩券報告委員 其實"},{"start":6349.942,"end":6372.66,"text":"我想外界在新聞部分有一些小小的誤解啦那78%是我們在年度總結算的時候不能超過78%如果超過78%就有發行機構自行吸收但是在單一的賽事的這個投注標的它其實可以試情況可以調到90幾都沒有問題但是整年度它必須要自己去挪用自己去雲支然後降到78%"},{"start":6374.361,"end":6391.394,"text":"所以比方說像十二強賽斯他如果為了要吸引大家來買氣他可能可以把它調到90幾%那誰來調有發行機構自己決定因為他整年度就是平均78以下但是他單一的可以看他的情況什麼賽斯的情況他自己去做增加或降低這樣子"},{"start":6392.573,"end":6418.138,"text":"那整年度這78有再調整的空間嗎?包委員我們這部分的確有經銷商提出一些激勵的方案我們在研議但是因為第三屆合約都已經簽了我們希望在第三屆結束前我們把這個討論完整之後我們希望第四屆能夠有一個更合理的一個支出獎金支出率的規定那這一屆是到哪一年?8年後"},{"start":6421.363,"end":6448.02,"text":"八年之後 所以還剛簽約嗎對 才剛第二年而已他意思是幾年十年十年喔 是所以這是八年之後的事情喔對所以這段時間沒有辦法去做調整嗎這個太複雜而且是有權利義務就是合約契約的問題這個可能沒有辦法在這個十年內去做這樣的變動但是你說就是發行機構它可以針對不同的賽事它可以去做調整它可以去做調整就對了是的"},{"start":6448.8,"end":6467.772,"text":"好 那如果契約已經定了 好像目前也只能這樣子那我們會加強跟經銷商去研議出更好的方案出來啦我們當然希望下一屆的時候可以讓大家更好的環境因為我們還是把大家產業的概念在...對啊 那就產業其實還是要吸引民眾比如說在十二強大家就覺得說那有在關注"},{"start":6469.794,"end":6482.509,"text":"這個當然就是會去買彩券的比例就會比較高那現在其實職棒開打之後我看每一場的人數大概最少都有五六千以上那最高就是滿場那其實都滿熱的但這是從十二強這個賽帶上來的啦我希望說這一個這個關於"},{"start":6487.214,"end":6501.659,"text":"職棒 或是說關於我們台灣的這個運動我剛才講的是足球體育署 未來是體育部了能夠多給一些資源 多一些獎勵當然 如果做不好的話該懲處還是要懲處啦不然足協一年拿這麼多錢好不好好 謝謝 謝謝署長好 謝謝 謝謝李坤誠委員那我們再來請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":6518.783,"end":6521.016,"text":"好 謝謝 有請部長好 有請鄭部長好 鄭署長"},{"start":6528.576,"end":6555.973,"text":"好 謝謝部長今天我們在修這個運動財政發行條例21條第21條之一其實多半所有的委員大家大致都有一樣的一個想法都希望這個部分能夠更好沒有什麼太大的問題但是有幾點我想就叫今天我們對於幾個運動賽事我們非常關注的一個相關事項想來做請問我想剛剛前面幾個委員對於紐西蘭女足隊在這一次受邀來台跟台灣女足舉行的一個友誼賽"},{"start":6556.934,"end":6586.089,"text":"大家都非常的關心也非常關注到底後續該怎麼樣去進行那我想在這一次我們台灣曾經舉辦過2001年亞洲盃女足賽2005年東亞盃資格賽2002年陳水扁總統還提出了說足球元年要向世界盃邁進我想這一場友誼賽真的是讓我們都覺得這是利益良善但是在這一次的國際體育的交流機會連場地都被嫌棄剛剛我想部長也講了一個蠻重的話"},{"start":6586.829,"end":6611.423,"text":"那我覺得這個丟臉呢讓大家看到台灣喔台灣竟然會在因為這件事情上被看到我們也覺得是非常不捨但是這個場地上喔到底現在場地我們該怎麼樣後續的一個檢討我想這個是我們應該要來努力的那剛剛署長有提到每年有編列這樣子的公建費用那有大概一億多相關的縣市政府有來申請台中市有嗎"},{"start":6613.595,"end":6636.946,"text":"包委員台中是已經有一個台中一個台中的一個足球園區園區對不對因為我們也正已經宣布正在要處理這個足球園區那我想是說台中有在這樣積極面對這個足球園區的興建當中但是我們現階段也看到一個問題就是我們到底有多少標準的場地有幾座是不是只有"},{"start":6637.726,"end":6661.453,"text":"足協說是台灣國際賽事標準場地的有兩座台北田技場跟高雄國家體育場是嗎?包圍員A級的部分是那我想這個體育署過去推動台灣足球六年的一個計畫編列43億希望足球可以在世界展露我們相關的一些選手讓他們能夠有所發展成為一個真正的一個平台"},{"start":6662.173,"end":6680.97,"text":"那我想台灣足球提升到100名內呢這個是我們的目標那推動企業足球呢辦職業的一個方式運動發展我想鼓勵各個學校籌組足球隊那新建六座合乎國際標準這個計畫已經結束了因為那個時候是編列在2018到2023成效為何抱怨這個計畫在男主的部分沒有達到目標"},{"start":6689.214,"end":6697.936,"text":"對 審計部也有說截至民國112年底累積執行數是20億多那執行率為47.2我國男子足球是154名2023年所以為達成整個總體的目標花了20幾億推動企業足球的執行率也只有35.18%國家隊的選訓只有36.49"},{"start":6717.02,"end":6730.58,"text":"我們所編列的這麼多的一個部分的一個預算最後很可惜那各校學校籌組足球隊的比例現在為何目標是幾成幫委員我們在基層的隊伍數喔其實有在這過去這"},{"start":6732.619,"end":6748.688,"text":"八年有大量的成長特別在國小及國中的部分所以我們持續在繼續在推動基層足球的發展署長我們跟部長我們都非常的關注這一類的一個相關賽事那現在我們看到包括這一次所編列我們看到這個計畫審計部都講了"},{"start":6750.649,"end":6765.474,"text":"是完全不符合我們的一個目標的那你也看到我剛剛所提出的數據我們覺得還有很大的一個進步空間到底該如何再強而有力的而不是只是編列預算供市政府來是不是後續有更積極的一個作為這是我們所關注的"},{"start":6766.114,"end":6791.885,"text":"當然今天我也很關注這個113學年度國小足球盃世界盃的一個問題後續我們會再來追蹤這一類的事情我想網路都在發酵那我也很感謝署長有在關注這些網路議題署長並不是只坐在辦公室網路的相關議題我相信你都有掌握到我們都在會後再繼續來討論今天時間有限但是我想我要再跟另外再提的是我們這個賽車選手劉鈞妹"},{"start":6794.502,"end":6816.444,"text":"部長知道嗎部長女選手女選手這是我們教育部有編列的67號那我想要講的是說不要只說我幫劉軍妹講話因為我剛好認識到她對於這個賽事的認真那所有的非亞奧運我們都應該關注但就劉軍妹這個部分我要講先謝謝署長"},{"start":6818.186,"end":6837.467,"text":"在過去去年四月的時候有幫忙協助但是部長他現在仍在荷蘭參加FIN女子公路賽車世界錦標賽是唯一亞洲代表唯一2024年是唯二2025年是唯一那這一次我們能夠給予什麼協助 體育署"},{"start":6839.346,"end":6856.902,"text":"保元在目前的架構下因為綜合賽車會本身也有它內部的問題所以我們在這部分目前的確我委員所期待我們目前是沒有辦法提供太多的協助除了在媒合平台之外去年我們辦了一個記者會啦盡可能去幫忙曝光啦"},{"start":6857.022,"end":6873.632,"text":"那現階段他在所謂的一個募資平台自己去募資我們看了是很不捨不管是足球不管是我們賽車我們都希望這些選手甚至是非亞奧運的電競選手這些都有辦法給予更大的一個幫助所以我希望部長"},{"start":6875.307,"end":6889.108,"text":"亞洲唯一代表出賽非同小可台灣不能做事不管教育部體育署應該幫忙協助尤其是體育部未來還要作為運動部的一個成立"},{"start":6890.469,"end":6919.46,"text":"鮑委員的確在這部分我們有考量到不只是流軍妹還有包括像電競這些職業選手其實我們在運動部也謝謝委員給我們的一些提示我們有準備在運動部成立的時候我們有一個計畫針對這樣子類型的職業選手我們希望跳過特定體育團體我們直接給予他一個協助那這部分我們正在籌劃當中這個籌劃從去年您就跟我說了鮑委員的確我們在現行的架構真的補助辦法是不是能夠再加快這個我要拜託好不好謝謝署長"},{"start":6920,"end":6932.345,"text":"是我想這個所有的眾望所歸都希望你能夠趕快完成那運動部如果即將掛牌以後到底目前運動部規劃在哪裡有沒有機會來台中聽說在高雄真的還假的"},{"start":6933.783,"end":6950.933,"text":"包委員目前行政院還沒有做任何的核對你的考量點是什麼有沒有考量點可以講一下包委員就像我們身為首長一天到晚要跑來立法院一樣所以希望車程能夠在20分鐘之內是比較對我們來講那高雄一定不行嗎"},{"start":6951.833,"end":6974.75,"text":"那我建議第二啦就是台中啦台中比高雄還要近台北多一點啦幫委員這個決定權在行政院上面好啦這我不為難你啦但是我要另外再說我們現在國訓中心的室內網球場地網球比賽場地約略有三種紅土草地跟硬地國訓中心在室內蓋人工草地的網球場問題引起各界划然這個你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":6975.56,"end":7004.271,"text":"包委員這個原因起因是因為在過去國訓在起這個案子的時候有徵詢過協會那只有軟網協會有意願進到中心來培訓那他們國際的賽事大部分現階段都是用人工這個我都知道這個相關的過程經過盧彥勳的協助之後我們目前也做了一些工程上的一些變更但我們還是要記得雖然是當時只有他們所提出可是網球四大網球公差賽分別是法網"},{"start":7005.171,"end":7033.293,"text":"他是紅土戶外溫布敦是草地戶外美澳網是硬地可戶外跟室內國際四大網球公開賽跟一般網球的比賽有多少在人工草地上來做比賽所以這個部分上我覺得我們也應該在興建的時候不只是詢問現況到底現實狀況怎麼樣跟國際賽事的趨勢怎麼樣我們也應該好好的考量所以在這個部分上我們是應該做檢討對吧"},{"start":7035.074,"end":7044.604,"text":"我想運動員最怕受傷喔那我想這個部分鞋子對運動員來說也是非常重要不同的比賽場地穿不同的鞋所以在這一次不管是紐西蘭"},{"start":7046.426,"end":7072.038,"text":"這次的友誼賽停賽我們支持支持停賽為什麼所有的選手都不能夠因為賽事的這個規格場地不符合而造成選手受傷可能造成不可逆甚至整個選手的生涯可是我們希望後續的檢討跟事前的維護以及剛剛說的SOP訂定甚至是足協相關的人士應不應該要做一個懲罰太足"},{"start":7074.339,"end":7091.968,"text":"這個都應該要由我們的主管機關幫忙協助去督導這個部分我希望你們能夠關注最後我想請問這個學生營養午餐法剛剛我們有提到這個我們現階段剛剛有委員提到學校衛生法23條3基改食品"},{"start":7092.788,"end":7117.128,"text":"基改食品我們現在都很關注包括網路上有人在討論基改食品跟非基改食品它的營養可能達到幾乎一樣但是後面的風險我們有沒有不可控相關的一些在實驗上在老鼠上的一個實驗的確有增加腫瘤但人體實驗上有提出依據沒有相關的明顯的一個顯著問題"},{"start":7119.75,"end":7137.499,"text":"但是有風險對家長來說這三個字就很可怕所以我想部長剛剛所提到的從一開始依法執行到後面開始帶到所謂的現階段的科學並沒有直接的去直指基改食品有一定的問題這些"},{"start":7140.14,"end":7168.287,"text":"話語都會讓我們作為家長有所擔心尤其國際的趨勢到現階段我們對於美國的態度並不是非常強而有力我們沒有這個本錢能夠強力的去回應那更擔憂在這一次會不會有基改食品來到學生營養午餐內所以在營養午餐法裡面我們也提到了很多的問題我就叫就幾個問題來請教現階段部長您知道嗎學生學校衛生法第二三條第一"},{"start":7169.585,"end":7185.791,"text":"高級中等學校以下班級數40班以上應至少設置營養師一人請問一下目前台灣有多少營養師在協助處理營養午餐的一個事宜佔所有學校多少百分比部長現在大概有一幅動作有600到800位"},{"start":7193.482,"end":7215.593,"text":"2023年9月的新聞是630名營養師協助處理這個相關營養午餐事宜還有加那個偏鄉的他可能沒有加到偏鄉但是當時的數據是不到19%的學校有營養師在這一次的營養午餐法的訂定當中我們也希望能夠把這個部分能夠明確的去訂定然後去維護營養師 學校 學生 家長"},{"start":7219.515,"end":7246.125,"text":"相關的一些疑慮而現行大多數都是由教師去擔任營養午餐的祕書去年3月19日我與全教產就召開了這個記者會內容談的就是一般教師兼任午餐祕書這樣的事長久以來國小老師對於兼任午餐祕書都是在做功德午餐祕書是行政工作但是卻沒有工作佳績這個部分在專法還沒完成之前這些擔任午餐祕書老師是不是能給予行政佳績部長"},{"start":7250.529,"end":7252.973,"text":"目前有49%是由老實監 比較多是行政職也在處理例如台北市"},{"start":7267.353,"end":7281.779,"text":"怎麼樣處理是最適合現在地方政府以老實監的部分都採檢科的方式處理至於行政交集的部分上次有報告裁劃法在實施之後地方政府有很大的空間這一部分我們再看行政措施上怎麼大家一起來研商"},{"start":7282.879,"end":7304.517,"text":"那個趙薇樂站起來了但是我要講啊如果你要說才化法我還是一貫的態度可以是錢又是權要求地方政府幫忙協助都沒關係但是一個態度很重要能不能幫忙協助關心這一群午餐祕書是我們後續想要來關注還有剛剛說的營養午餐法以及營養午餐能夠有營養師來幫忙協助這個也希望部長能夠關注謝謝"},{"start":7308.464,"end":7319.308,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷偉委員那我們在 部長請回我們在吳佩奕委員咨詢完 我們休息五分鐘好 接下來請葛如君召委好 謝謝主席 有請教育部部長好 請鄭部長"},{"start":7340.032,"end":7367.304,"text":"部長好我想最近這個臺灣面臨到這個經濟的變局關稅的這個世紀之爭那我想非常多人都非常關心我們的民生接下來能不能持續的維護住還有大家百姓的生活那我們本黨委員廖偉強委員呢也在前些日子有分享了開始有一些各地的校長開始關注如果經濟受到影響會不會有一些學童的家長"},{"start":7367.984,"end":7377.852,"text":"可能因為工作的改變不管是無薪假或者是各種各樣的狀態甚至是中小企業主他生活狀態的改變會不會影響到學童的這個教育的狀況也希望請部長還有同仁可以在接下來這段時間可能要持續關注一下在學校內部有沒有一些學童狀況的改變可能來學校的時間減少等等這一點我是溫馨提醒也希望我們的教育部可以持續的為學童的這個學習狀態做把關了解一下看有沒有一些狀態"},{"start":7397.448,"end":7418.157,"text":"另外我想因為經濟的變化我們也非常關注老師的教育跟生活的水平我想給部長看一下這張投影片不知道您能不能看出這個意思這個是40年來我國GDP薪資的成長曲線的比較從1981年到2023年我們的GDP成長了10倍"},{"start":7424.58,"end":7448.396,"text":"但是我們的薪資只成長了2.4倍那這樣的一個差異呢其實可以看得到我們的各行各業都值得更好更合理的薪水當然也就包含教育部負責的老師以及相關從業人員的薪資所以想要先跟你討論一下公立中小學兼任以及待課教師的終點費的問題今年114年各級學校的教師終點費"},{"start":7454.92,"end":7471.434,"text":"分別是高中420塊 國中378塊 國小336塊我想請教一下教育部長有沒有理解到這些數字多少年沒有調整過"},{"start":7475.802,"end":7493.371,"text":"跟委員報告大概委員的資料也充分的顯示從民國79年的400到111年才調整了高中調整20塊然後國中國小也跟著調整謝謝部長您覺得這樣的條幅合理嗎我幫您算過了每一年平均的條幅千分之一啊"},{"start":7503.228,"end":7527.637,"text":"千分之一35年調漲20塊我們同仁整理出這個數字的時候我真的是嚇傻了我真的嚇傻教育部長我剛剛從口袋抽出這支原子筆部長你已經知道這支原子筆多少錢嗎這支原子筆39元啦你大量購買20塊"},{"start":7530.086,"end":7548.064,"text":"我們35年的時間老師的薪水只給他漲一支原子筆不到一個小時部長您覺得這樣合理嗎教育部近期有沒有調整的打算還是要再等32年再多半支原子筆呢部長有沒有什麼回應"},{"start":7549.448,"end":7575.006,"text":"我想對老師的一個權益的一個照顧讓他能夠安心放心的在把我們的小孩子教好我想那是教育部有責任跟地方因為特別在國民教育中小學地方政府他是直接歸地方政府來鎖管但是我要談的是說教育部在這個部分責務旁帶我們來跟地方來看怎麼樣來"},{"start":7576.947,"end":7589.854,"text":"建立一個更好的一個支持中小學老師的一些包括在這個教學的環境包括在報酬包括在生活各方面的一些照顧所以本席拜託教育部好認真思考一下你們要做領頭羊啦思考通膨接下來很可能還會改變"},{"start":7594.616,"end":7598.758,"text":"對教師們的生活也可能會造成壓力我們也希望能夠提前預警提前緩解好不好我們希望這個部長能不能在一個月內做一個有關教師薪資調整情況的報告出來給我們委員也給社會大眾做參考可以嗎"},{"start":7614.502,"end":7620.969,"text":"我本來是想說兩個禮拜因為這個時局真的變化很大那我知道同仁都很辛苦能不能一個月內規劃我們來努力好不好有個報告好不好然後我們大家一起來努力啦不然的話我覺得這個經濟的變化等到大家都出現狀況的時候"},{"start":7630.759,"end":7631.459,"text":"現在的狀況報告部長 打斷您 不好意思現在的狀況是校長"},{"start":7660.191,"end":7685.6,"text":"開始關注到了家長自己也有點擔心老師也可能會覺得自己的心智面臨到通膨35年沒有跟得上所以部長您的態度很重要啦請您不要去我理解這個縣市政府啦校長部長您的態度很重要領頭好不好可以嗎這問題沒有問題好謝謝那我想接下來還要請這個體育署署長謝謝"},{"start":7689.656,"end":7715.269,"text":"那署長想跟您討論一下這個疫情啦疫情的調整對年輕運動人才的影響那由於兵役制度的調整嘛我們不論是常備役或替代役自從2024年起都恢復成一年那民國94年1月1號以後出生的藝男將沒有辦法申請專長研發替代役那我其實以前也是研發替代役"},{"start":7715.709,"end":7734.584,"text":"所以深受其惠那一級之後就不再有體育役了因為這是在裡面的那只要運動員被判定為替代役的體位有各種狀態啦比如說近視啦或者各種的情況勢必就會有一年的時間無法訓練或比賽這一年的空白以職棒來講的話呢"},{"start":7736.045,"end":7762.332,"text":"球員的平均這個職涯平均大概只有3.9年培育他們的時間要11年所以一年就非常的長了我相信這不是體育署或未來體育部所希望的想了解一下這個議題有沒有跟內政部溝通爭取目前溝通的進度到哪裡了有沒有可能來恢復體育意報告委員在112年當政府宣布延長兵役的時候我們第一時間就已經有去函"},{"start":7763.012,"end":7780.103,"text":"那國防部的部分並沒有打算恢復國訓隊的專長役那內政部的部分呢到今年到3月我們還有再一次的聯繫那這個內政部的回應說這是整體的兵役的制度所以這部分可能需要委員在跟內政部這邊幫我們一起來爭取"},{"start":7781.424,"end":7801.69,"text":"這個跨部會的協調我覺得還是要努力啦這個院長這個AI內閣行動創新好不好我想請教育部部長可不可以跟院長協調一下幫忙橫向的串聯內政部這個國防部能來替這些這個大家爭取一下因為這個今年"},{"start":7803.951,"end":7819.533,"text":"學子這些選手其實也是很重要的我們的戰力他們在賽場上面戰鬥那我覺得我們也應該要好好的來培植他們來為國家爭光尤其我們看到現在進白宮幫日本去交朋友的"},{"start":7820.074,"end":7837.7,"text":"對不對是我們的日本的體育選手啊他雖然在美國打球對不對所以體育是一個非常重要的主權跟國力啊能不能來努力一下謝謝委員關心我想我願意來先跟內政部還有國安部來做這個溝通看能不能跨部會有一個合作主動集齊好不好謝謝"},{"start":7838.88,"end":7840.462,"text":"我想體育署還有教育部未來我們還有體育部所以我想這個溝通應該先把它做起來最後一個問題想要談談電競選手面臨的問題電競選手的生命週期更早"},{"start":7855.3,"end":7880.558,"text":"是15歲開始訓練18歲高中畢業開始打職業賽那現行的兵役制度之下這些選手如果不繼續升學就會被迫服役但如果升學就放棄了整個選手的生涯因此實務上非常多的電競選手是被迫掛著大學學籍來延緩服役我們委員羅天華委員也非常關注所以就在想說"},{"start":7882.159,"end":7908.032,"text":"也爭取過這是去年了那我想署長當時應該有出席啦我知道署長也逐漸的越來越支持我們電競選手的權益所以我們現在我們也理解到主權 國安都很重要但是我覺得這個文化主權啦這個運動的這個賽事的成果跟這個象徵性也很重要我想教育部不缺這些學生的學雜費體育署有沒有什麼方法協助他們"},{"start":7908.732,"end":7937.16,"text":"又是跟國防部的溝通也好啦還是我們能不能從教育部上面 課業上 行政流程上來協助包委員 基本上我們這部分牽涉到病因的問題我們當然還是會積極來跟內政部溝通啦在學籍的部分 我覺得這是學生的選擇啦我想大學 念大學其實我們現在很多的科系 科大在電競的部分其實都很不錯啦那這部分我們再來跟委員這邊進一步了解他們真正的需求好不好"},{"start":7938.06,"end":7960.032,"text":"從課業上行政流程上或您剛提到這個課大我們一起來努力那我想這個隨著體育署要升格體育部我想這個接下來不管是電競人才或者是體育人才在一期之間的權益還有部長我們剛剛提到這個教師的薪資面臨到接下來經濟的震盪跟通膨的壓力拜託請教育部的同仁部長署長們我們一起來努力好謝謝葛如君召委"},{"start":7966.82,"end":7969.743,"text":"好 部長署長請回接下來我們請吳佩奕委員謝謝主席 我請庭屬鄭世忠署長好 我也請鄭署長"},{"start":7985.424,"end":8013.534,"text":"好 署長好最近一定很多人跟你關心紐西蘭女足來到台灣本來要跟我們台灣女足來進行友誼賽結果因為場地的問題比賽被迫取消那我想這除了球迷很失望我們國家的女足隊員也一定也相當失望因為這次一個紐西蘭人家是前段班嘛世界排名的這對我們來講本來是一個很好的交流的機會但是呢紐西蘭的女足因為考量到球員安全放棄比賽"},{"start":8014.594,"end":8029.029,"text":"這其實是正確的態度但對我們的球員來講這其實是失去了一個很好的機會所以我現在想要請問署長的事到底發生什麼事怎麼辦包委員之前我有剛剛有回覆幾個委員的這個提問"},{"start":8029.81,"end":8044.606,"text":"那這一次主要的原因在足協的技術部門他們在3月12開始其實有一些教練講習啦男足的一個練習啦等等其實他們那個時候其實可以把場地移到別的地方去讓這個場地專心來做一個加強的草皮養護那他們"},{"start":8047.629,"end":8070.644,"text":"去年在輔導他們在台北停電場的時候其實那時候就有要求他們在一個月前就開始做草皮養護那這個SOP他們今年沒有落實所以造成了在比賽前草皮的養護過度磨損無法使用所以SOP是場地的問題還是竹鞋的問題就是竹鞋它本身沒有來做草皮的加強養護所以竹鞋在行政管理上面出現問題嗎那我們的體育署怎麼辦"},{"start":8074.126,"end":8102.435,"text":"報委員這部分我們其實一再的要求他們那我們這次的賽事我們跟同仁講這次的賽事的補助我們就撤銷了撤銷嘛足協有疏失體育署要加強督導署長你有沒有覺得這個對話很熟悉也是去年三月的時候一樣是我跟你一樣站在同樣的位置當時發生什麼問題不是高雄台北市去年就發生了嘛台北田技場男足的"},{"start":8103.737,"end":8115.514,"text":"所以後來六月賽事我就要求還要台北市體育局跳出來打臉足閒說人家一年前就有場地預控會議你當時沒來參加等到比賽靠近了又再臨時抱佛腳"},{"start":8117.583,"end":8129.367,"text":"還去發聲明說協調到最後一刻真的沒辦法了當時也是高雄的男子球場跳出來解救啊然後最後是怎麼收場的呢最後是改成用兩張發票換進場然後因為男子這個球場本來就不是國際標準場燈光不符所以調到下午比賽時間大家都在上班所以當然球迷的權益又再次被忽略了所以去年的時候署長也直接講"},{"start":8147.153,"end":8174.487,"text":"足協有疏失體育署要加強督導就一年之後我覺得非常遺憾我們到今天還在遇到同樣的問題包委員我在六月的時候就已經有輔導他們他們應該要學會了可是我不可能每一場賽事都一直盯著他們署長棒子與蘿蔔啊是這是你們主管機關你們的政策工具是所以這一次補助撤銷但不能只有個案因為顯然嘛一而再再而三發生問題尤其是場地"},{"start":8176.843,"end":8181.805,"text":"去年就發生今年又發生我們一定要盡到我們主管機關的責任因為這個影響的是我們球員的權益還有球迷的權益好不好好這個接下來呢場地的問題我想除了這個個案以外"},{"start":8192.469,"end":8199.172,"text":"我們體育署之前也告訴我們說接下來要在各個縣市我們希望可以再增加場地總的來講我們總數就是不足嘛是那因為財務法的影響接下來我們可能也會需要更多地方政府的幫忙所以希望體育署或未來的運動部我們要積極的跟地方政府主動來討論主動來協調只要有適合的場地我們全力來支持包委員高雄中正體育場目前有就在談希望它成為第三座A級的場地"},{"start":8219.659,"end":8231.33,"text":"好那場地我們一定要持續來增加那今天是運彩條例的修法的詢答那其實就是因為今年初我們修訂了運產條例主要在處理是加重處罰非運彩的投注標的賽事的違法行為就是防堵那我們現在回頭來要來修改運彩條例就是要去處理作為運彩投標注的"},{"start":8244.161,"end":8246.502,"text":"投注標的這個賽事我們希望這兩個法的法則它的樣態可以相當所以這個我自己也有提案但除了加重處罰以外我今天要特別跟署長討論的是我想對於球員的待遇球員的處境工作就業的環境我們要加強的來輔導權力的支持我認為這才是源頭因為當初會發生主投威脅利誘"},{"start":8271.796,"end":8299.314,"text":"球員打假球其實一部分是在於我們像職棒元年的時候當時我們的球員月薪最高只有8萬所以其實當時的待遇是不高的所以容易被這樣子威脅利誘那我們好不容易走到了今天今年我們終止25個球員月薪有超過50萬其中有25個球員都超過50萬那有三名球員月薪是已經突破百萬所以我想我們在成長當中"},{"start":8302.016,"end":8313.724,"text":"成立運動部之後我們要更加強來支持球員他們的環境所以我想第一個我三個具體的建議第一個我們會成立運動產業發展中心嘛協助產業發展以外"},{"start":8314.813,"end":8343.171,"text":"改善選手的就業環境我覺得這個一定要當成第一優先要務這個應該要優於產值我希望我們運動部要把它放在這是我們的政策目標當中第二個去年署長你有親自搭建平台嘛就是跟直籃工會還有籃協來進行溝通我覺得跟工會的這個平台我們要去持續而且擴大項目去運作第三個呢是今年我們台灣的排球企業聯賽也要走向職業化但是雖然叫"},{"start":8343.971,"end":8368.767,"text":"企業排球聯賽但裡面很多他們是學生球員嘛那我想我們有很多經驗可以傳承像從這個直籃工會其實就從直棒工會學習到了很多當時創立的制度跟相關的機制所以我希望未來我們運動部成立之後也要來加強的輔導希望讓我們可以把這個制度傳承下去可以縮短這個花時間去摸索的時間來協助保障選手的權益好不好好"},{"start":8372.429,"end":8389.374,"text":"好那最後要跟署長討論的是我知道成立運動部在籌備當中其中我很關切的是台灣品牌賽事體育署最近有舉辦相關的論壇那打造品牌賽事呢在行政院的運動部諮詢小組第一階段總結也有結論結論就三點第一個我們要創辦以台灣或城市為名打造台灣品牌的"},{"start":8398.538,"end":8406.083,"text":"國際運動賽事第二我們要支持地方政府來籌辦國際賽事我們希望要吸引國外的選手來台灣交流那這也是可以帶動我們本地的運動產業第三我們要去發展有台灣特色的運動項目以及新興運動項目所以今天我要特別跟署長建議的是我認為未來在思考台灣品牌賽事的時候新興運動項目是一個非常值得我們去輔導扶植的"},{"start":8427.678,"end":8444.77,"text":"項目例如說街舞因為這我長期有在關注我發現到他們過去就跟國際其他國家的這個交流已經非常之深了例如說像日本有一個近30年歷史的Dance Delight街舞比賽它是本來就是全國際性的"},{"start":8445.891,"end":8470.35,"text":"所以每一年我們台灣都會有團體協助來選出台灣的選手到日本去參賽那去年我也邀請署長來參加一個college high就台灣自己主辦的大學街舞比賽我們這些年來也已經每一年都邀請舞組來自其他國家的選手來到台灣比賽而他們在來台灣之前都是有本地比如說法國當地有法國的主辦單位"},{"start":8472.572,"end":8491.087,"text":"選出法國的大學街舞選手來到台灣參賽我覺得過去已經很好的經驗所以我希望未來我們運動部在國際品牌賽事的這個項目可以多多的來支持民間已經在努力而且已經有成果的這些新興項目的國際交流比賽好不好"},{"start":8492.865,"end":8505.96,"text":"謝謝包委員我完全認同不用等運動部我們現在就可以開始做了太好了那我覺得這除了是帶動運動產業之外也是非常好的運動外交所以我希望我們要加速加強來努力是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員署長請回那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":8917.449,"end":8919.011,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會我們接下來請陳秀寶委員質詢謝主席 請署長 鄭署長好 有請鄭署長"},{"start":8934.471,"end":8949.838,"text":"委員長署長這個每個委員都關心這個議題4月8號我們中華女足的這個國際邀請賽因為紐西蘭女足認定我們的場地不安全而聚賽那我想問一下署長"},{"start":8951.824,"end":8964.367,"text":"這個目前我們體育署你們所了解的實際的狀況而且接下來你們要怎麼做其實紐西蘭女足是連續四屆取得奧運資格的強隊那我國的女足目前也積極地備戰2026的亞洲盃所以這一次的國際賽事是我們從2019年以來首度在台灣本土舉行的這個國際級的A級的這個賽事"},{"start":8975.149,"end":8991.102,"text":"我也相信說這個邀請賽對我國的女足覺得是非常期待也是非常重要的一些交流的一個經驗那這次的賽事取消其實最難過的除了球迷還是球員我對我的球迷也覺得很心疼很不捨所以我這邊要再請教一下我們署長"},{"start":8992.623,"end":9003.913,"text":"對於足協這麼怠惰我覺得體育署是責無旁貸的紐西蘭國家女子足球隊在3月底就已經跟中華足協提出要新鋪這個草地這個建議喔那4月5號的訓練賽也早就已經先取消了"},{"start":9010.478,"end":9037.432,"text":"足協為什麼沒有反映為什麼沒有做應該要做的一些措施再來女足公會4月1號接獲會員反映說球場狀況這個疑慮有向我們體育署的長官尋求協助那這個部分呢我們體育署在知道了之後我們做的什麼是哪一位接收到訊息為什麼沒有去監督相關的這些改善的措施第三個就是明知道女足有重大的邀請賽"},{"start":9038.633,"end":9062.731,"text":"為什麼沒有將賽事跟練習做分級在16號以後就開始做維護這個部分我請署長您回答一下報告委員那從其實這個問題在去年也曾經發生過所以3月發生的時候在台北停電場那6月在辦比賽的時候我們在那之前我就下輔導他們就是說居然在一個月前能夠做一個草皮的加強養護這樣一個SOP應該要落實那今年顯然他們沒有這樣的落實特別是在"},{"start":9065.573,"end":9091.69,"text":"3月12日開始他們陸續都是有教練講習男主的練習其實他們可以挪到別的地方去喔其實這是技術部門跟競賽部門之間的橫向聯繫的不足所以長期缺乏秘書長是一個很大的問題本席剛剛第一個問題3月底的時候紐西蘭女子足球隊提出這個要求建議的時候其實足協並沒有做任何措施包委員足協有加強在當時開始做加強那個草地的鋪設但是其實它需要至少三週的時間那時候是來不及的"},{"start":9093.131,"end":9119.427,"text":"所以效果也沒有顯現出來那還有我想請教為什麼這次足協沒有讓女足的總教練跟球員參與這個場地相關事宜的討論報告委員這名女足的總教練有在現場她有參與其他球員是沒有的球員沒有參與然後我剛剛提的第二個問題他們說女足公會說有向體育署這邊來求助"},{"start":9121.178,"end":9136.52,"text":"那請 報委員我這邊是沒有得到工會的求助但是竹協這邊有來向我們反映那當時是希望看看台北田徑場是不是有機會不過因為台北田徑場現在因為壯年運動會的關係在閉門在做一些整修所以他們也沒有辦法借場地所以部分還是得回去到好"},{"start":9137.521,"end":9160.174,"text":"署長這就凸顯了一個很嚴重的問題我們的足球場地是嚴重的不足是在這個時候我們竟然沒有相應應的球場可以來調用那明明知道說要辦理相關的國際賽事但是足協其實應該早就要去做整個維護計畫跟預建場地的這些相關的一些措施但是它是其實它沒有做"},{"start":9160.774,"end":9173.467,"text":"所以這一次的事件不僅是凸顯出我國運動場地分級的規範不足也真的很明顯的看出來租協對於女足相關的活動的態度是很不重視的"},{"start":9175.441,"end":9201.689,"text":"而且我們這次相關的一些訊息消息都是從紐西蘭這一方得到所以其實我相信球迷球員甚至我們關心足球運動的民眾對足協都非常的失望我也希望說體育署這邊你們要加強監督而且要深切的來反省那在這樣的事件之下我想請問署長對於協會如此怠惰你現在要怎麼辦你要怎麼處理"},{"start":9202.389,"end":9221.162,"text":"報告委員那除了我們這次的補助我們撤銷之外呢第二個我們希望盡可能還是協助他們把祕書長要找到因為沒有祕書長的確橫向聯繫上面的確是很大的問題那第三個就是我們現在我其實已經在陸續跟高雄市政府這邊談把中正體育場能夠轉型為另外一座A級的足球場地"},{"start":9221.923,"end":9226.666,"text":"這是場地的問題我們要再來討論我是要先問署長您的決心我們要怎麼讓我們的關心體育的民眾看到您的決心就是這對於我們協會這樣子帶墮形式這樣便宜形式您有什麼決心來展現報告委員我這邊會把他們叫來基本上SOP還是要叫他定下來因為他們就是去年是口頭教他們可是他們顯然沒有記下來沒有落實這部分我們要求他素面整個SOP要定下來"},{"start":9248.038,"end":9251.446,"text":"把規則綁得好你也覺得說其實協會對你的要求其實就聽聽就算了這樣這個部分我會再要求足協啦好"},{"start":9259.119,"end":9276.926,"text":"署長您這樣說我們就讓我們的球迷再相信您願意好好來整頓協會那再提到說關於我們足球場地嚴重不足這個部分其實剛才您有回答其他的委員就是說其實你們在公建計畫裡面有提出相關的經費讓縣市政府來申請那為什麼縣市政府這麼不積極或者覺得說"},{"start":9281.428,"end":9297.8,"text":"因為包委員一來足球場它的面積比較大二來他們大部分申請的都是訓練或者是國內的賽事那缺乏淋浴間休息室再來缺乏看台所以這部分都是我們為什麼很難去找到一座"},{"start":9298.661,"end":9314.593,"text":"全新的足球場地接下來體育署你們要怎麼做所以我們現在就針對國內一些田徑場至少田徑場的部分我們看如果那個草皮是面積夠大我們來協助這種共用的方式來請他們把領域間休息設備來把它清真因為真的場地的問題還是要解決是的"},{"start":9316.414,"end":9339.254,"text":"好那您在場地這部分你們的規劃在後續你們有什麼進展也希望可以資訊給我報告這部分我會好好努力好再來我還是要針對女足公會的問題我這邊接收到的狀況是說從新任的國訓中心執行長上任之後女足公會就被排除在國訓定期跟女足的座談會之外為什麼"},{"start":9341.135,"end":9358.26,"text":"最近一次是四月份的座談會的與會名單裡面確實是沒有女足你看一下這個出席的名單裡面女足的部分是沒有的那女足公會最後一次受邀的時間是2023年的8月30號是在男子的足球場的會議"},{"start":9359.56,"end":9384.053,"text":"那這個狀況很明顯的看得出來對女足公會是很不友善的所以我也希望說署長您要去了解相關的情況在後續的座談會裡面一定要重新納入女足您覺得呢報告委員女足公會的理事長本身就是女足培訓隊的選手隊長那他有參加但是呢我想他們女足公會表達的是幹部的部分那部分我會要求國訓應該要"},{"start":9386.174,"end":9409.156,"text":"敞開心胸還是要多廣納建言所以這部分會邀請他們來對為什麼會要求他們可以出席他們有意見想表達有意見可以被溝通跟你們相互的溝通因為其實公會的存在就是希望替我們球員來爭取他們相關的福利待遇照顧以及希望說能夠得到重視所以這個部分我希望說未來女足公會不會再被缺席可以嗎可以"},{"start":9410.057,"end":9428.994,"text":"好 謝謝那再來呢就是關於今天的主題關於就是我們運財條例的這個增訂那其實為了防堵這個假求案在發生呢大家其實蠻有共識的就是增訂一些相關的法則但是我這邊再提到一個就是關於我們運財獎金的支出這個議題我想問一下我們體署這邊的意見"},{"start":9430.615,"end":9455.001,"text":"因為業界有在反映就是說運材的獎制率就是比較低比國際上的這個行情還要低國際市場大概在80%到90%這個支出那我們台灣這麼低的這個獎制率比較難以吸引玩家來投注那署長你之前有表達過說可能我們可以在內部進行討論我想知道說你們現在討論到怎樣的階段包委員那現在的"},{"start":9458.202,"end":9481.713,"text":"因為賭博在台灣是不允許,它是特許行業它還是肩負著社會責任所以它的成本上面22%裡面有10%是進到國家選手的培育這一塊其他是經銷商以及發行機構那78%是整年度的一個平均值其實我們發行機構可以針對不同的賽事需求可以去把它調整到九月幾或甚至六月幾"},{"start":9482.273,"end":9490.316,"text":"78%裡面去調整單一的調整就對了那其實我本席在這邊問這樣子的關心這樣的議題除了說是說我們希望說我們提高我們民眾他們喜愛運動那也可以在這個部分我們來投注希望能夠創造我們這個運產的收益"},{"start":9501.92,"end":9513.688,"text":"其實連帶的就是希望說我們運發基金的收入可以更高因為在8月份我們運動部掛牌之後呢其實有學者專家評估說我們至少要再投入400到500億的經費才能讓整個的運動產業能夠蓬勃發展當然我們現在必須要很積極的來籌措相關的經費"},{"start":9519.332,"end":9534.459,"text":"那所以說我們希望我們體育署這邊可以研議在運動部成立之後我們要怎麼樣來推動相關的這些運動的政策在這個運採的這個獎之率是不是提高這個部分我們希望有空間可以繼續討論"},{"start":9535.6,"end":9542.823,"text":"包委我們會用產業的概念這種觀念來持續跟經銷商們來做對話那我們當然希望在第四屆之前我們能夠有一個更好的一個方案提出來讓他們第四屆開始能夠有更滿足的那你相關的如果你們也討論之後有怎樣新的一部的訊息也希望給我辦公室這邊資訊另外我要再問一下今年體育署的預算被大幅的刪減"},{"start":9558.308,"end":9571.711,"text":"那在加強學校體育活動及教學發展向下的這個經費被減列了兩千萬但是這一項經費主要是用於各校的運動設施及器材的補助而且根據113年運動統計顯示體育署補助給各級學校的這個"},{"start":9578.413,"end":9599.398,"text":"經費光是體育器材就高達309案操場有105案還有風雨球場的各式球場超過100案那根據本席過往的經驗體育署補助學校的經費一般都是不夠的我想請問說我們往年這一項經費的執行率是多少是不是真的是都不夠支應"},{"start":9601.099,"end":9622.337,"text":"報委員如果單純講執行率可能沒有辦法反映出整個全面因為執行率有時候還要看縣市學校他發包的程度所以我們過去其實執行率在去年的執行率大概是在八九成左右其實還不錯那但是呢我們這一次因為通山的影響以及凍結的影響特別在通山的部分所以我們被管控了大概三成的經費所以我們勢必要去砍"},{"start":9623.118,"end":9645.23,"text":"把一些給學校的一些設施器材的補助去砍下來因為我們必須要先保住人事費相關或是活動相關的這個就是本席擔心的地方那其實剛剛提到說除了你們被通商的部分呢其實在減量兩千萬的部分可能就是數十案的學校補助案會被犧牲掉那當然你們這邊也知道說剛剛講的因為預算不足啊所以可能會減少對學校運動設施器材的補助"},{"start":9647.671,"end":9668.568,"text":"但是我要講的是在我的選區的學校相關經費的申請就是一直在排隊學校年年送年年等年年等我要請他們年年都在送每次每年幾乎都有十幾個案子十幾個學校就在等等體育署的補助等你們的經費等你們可以核給他那我也要求他們年年都送他們也很有那些每年就是聽我的話在送那這樣的情況之下你們又要減少這邊對他們的補助那他們要等到什麼時候"},{"start":9675.706,"end":9703.039,"text":"你們有什麼因應的措施嗎 要協助這些學校報告委員 我們基本上還是以安全有疑慮的優先這個是我們目前以現有的預算我們必須這樣子我為什麼這麼要緊呢我也是希望說體育署這邊你們盡量降低對學校補助的這個影響我們不能影響到孩子他們教學的環境的這個安全及運動的安全報告委員 我們明年運動部的這個預算我們會盡量來編列那也請委員多多支持那我們會盡量滿足大家的需求謝謝署長"},{"start":9704.58,"end":9718.744,"text":"希望說我們對孩童我們對學童在學校這個活動的空間學習的空間這個安全是被放在第一位的好 以上謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝陳秀寶委員署長請回接下來請林怡錦召委諮詢好 謝謝主席有請鄭部長跟鄭署長請部長 署長"},{"start":9740.1,"end":9759.918,"text":"委員好部長好我想首先還是先來關心一下就是我們運動部即將在8月就要掛牌上市掛牌成立那剩下不到半年的時間身為運動迷的我其實非常期待這個運動發展有這個新的篇章那可是運動部成立我們有很多事情要調整"},{"start":9760.939,"end":9766.564,"text":"像說我們教育部的業務分工學生運動員的培訓選拔還有比賽跟輔導還有各級學校專任運動教練的聘任跟考核的業務要怎麼分工跟分配合作的問題那從法規面來看確實有很多需要跟著修正尤其是國民體育法"},{"start":9781.816,"end":9797.531,"text":"可能我們光看張名就好國民體育法的第二章是學生體育第三章是全民運動不過運動部成立之後我們學校體育就歸教育部管轄那全民運動是歸運動部管轄所以這個法規的名稱叫國民體育法"},{"start":9799.933,"end":9825.18,"text":"所以是不是隨著運動部的成立我們就顯得這個國民體育法必須要單修要來修法不然就顯得很不合時宜那之前我們本辦有跟體育署來了解就是運動部跟教育部的職長分工還有法規修正的方向那體育署有初步跟我們報告這個討論的進度那目前就是說還在廣泛收集意見的階段"},{"start":9826.94,"end":9831.926,"text":"那等各業務單位釐清這個業務執掌跟政策方向再提報行政院來討論那當時提署也有提到說運動部組織法通過了附帶決議有提到說運動部應於成立後一年"},{"start":9843.16,"end":9862.393,"text":"一年內完成前述法律及其他相關政令法律之延商那我可以理解說目前運動部長院還沒有確定由誰擔任那或許要等到新部長上任之後依照部長的願景跟目標來細緻的修正法規可是我還是要提醒一點運動部的籌備應該跟法規的修正"},{"start":9867.517,"end":9889.535,"text":"來並行討論因為等運動部成立之後那法規修正也才能趕快快速跟上不然你在一年內喔那個相關的業務推行恐怕就會很麻煩像你教育部跟運動部的那個一些執掌可能會相互推委卸責啦或者還會說等法規備齊我們再來說那可是有一些計畫喔"},{"start":9890.796,"end":9909.838,"text":"那可能變成你地方很難去執行那這個錢到底由誰管匣經費拿來就你會有一年你在法規還沒有明定之前你一年內一年內就很混沌不明所以我想這個都是我們要預想出來的問題因為這個混沌不明會造成選手跟所謂的教練權益受損的問題"},{"start":9910.859,"end":9936.17,"text":"那我再簡單就是說先請部長說明一下或請署長說明就是說我們後續這個國民體育法要如何的修法另外就是說未來運動部跟教育部執掌的規劃是不是可以說明一下你們最近開會一次的進度到哪裡那對於我剛剛提到這些問題那有什麼樣部分是覺得相對困難的地方"},{"start":9937.738,"end":9954.288,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們運動部這個成立以後在這個體育教學在人才培育包括全民運動怎麼樣去跟教育部跟體育運動部來做分工事實上也跟委員報告我們不管是這個副院長或者我們這個政委"},{"start":9956.943,"end":9975.448,"text":"然後召集我們這個跨部會包含我們體育署還有我們教育部目前由張亮這個次長來主要負責督導事實上已經有召開非常多的包含委員所關心的法令上的盤點包含這個全民運動又我們包含這個小學這一個專任教練"},{"start":9980.729,"end":9998.175,"text":"那到底要怎麼結合社區的這個俱樂部包含這個全民運動校園開放然後跟第一線上的這些老師專業老師做一些討論事實上都有形成了一些共識那我想這委員所關心的這是我們在這一段籌備時間陸續都在進行的那詳細的是不是請這個鎮署長來補充說明"},{"start":10005.658,"end":10031.759,"text":"鮑委員我們其實重點在分為學校體育場地游泳教學體育班專門教練基優生升學已經適應運動適應體育等等其實我們開了不只超過七次的會議那我們談得非常非常的細我們還持續在進行所以我們相信在運動部成立之前我們跟國教署以及甚至未來有可能牽涉到高教師以及記者是都有一個很好明確的分工我們會在確保在掛牌之前把這件事情把它做好"},{"start":10032.759,"end":10048.284,"text":"因為剛剛部長也有提到像說小學因為現在就是有現場的小學的老師來反映就是說像國小非體育專長的教師培育計畫那因為未來的業務不確定由誰來主管所以老師會一度很擔心這個計畫會被中斷"},{"start":10050.205,"end":10067.421,"text":"但就國小非體育專長的教師培育計畫這個例子來看就好你後續到底是運動部主管還是教育部主管那我想請問說那能不能保證說在運動部成立後法規還沒有完備前那包括老師啊學生或運動教練或選手或特定的運動團體等等這些會不會因為這個職長不確定性這個計畫會受到影響"},{"start":10074.943,"end":10097.403,"text":"跟委員報告感謝委員提醒但是我想運動部的一個成立從教育部的體育署成立一個新的一個運動部我想我們就希望透過運動部能夠有一個更好的一個這個運動人才的培育或者是運動產業讓大家透過全民運動然後能夠更健康"},{"start":10099.742,"end":10120.888,"text":"雖然有分工但是不要忘掉他是一個團隊他也是有合作的所以有關這個一般的體育教學我想我利用這個機會讓我們所有的小學的老師怎麼樣讓一般的老師能夠有體育的這個相關運動上的一個真人這是我們積極在做的那另外"},{"start":10122.472,"end":10147.013,"text":"分工以後我們事實上一定會有更多的一些緊密的合作我想也謝謝委員提醒但我也利用這個機會讓我們這個第一線上的老師不管是運動教練請放心我們一定會有一個非常周全的一些支持的系統希望更多的資源來挹注我們在中小學教育的這個體育教學包括人才培育"},{"start":10147.073,"end":10169.029,"text":"OK 好 希望你們這個充分的準備讓那個基層的老師沒有擔憂那另外我們運動部成立的很大一個項目的業務就是要全民運動推廣全民運動跟扶植運動產業那體育署在今年2月有公布一項2023年度你們所做的我國民眾運動消費支出的調查報告"},{"start":10171.41,"end":10196.997,"text":"這個調查報告我本期要跟您討論就是我聚焦在學生族群的這個運動推廣的這個政策就是所謂的青春動資券我前面有提到說這個報告裡面其實我們受訪的青年他多數是很肯定青年動資券的那真的確實有提升運動看比賽的意願那可是目前就是說"},{"start":10198.097,"end":10215.584,"text":"這個青年動資券是從動資網領用那有青年就認為說其實網站的形式操作上很不容易像說要先登記再領取那這兩個階段都需要輸入個人資料那動作重複性很高而且手機的版本的動資"},{"start":10217.665,"end":10244.823,"text":"動資網的介面也比較不容易可以找到那個QR Code的位置那另外有的人會預先把折抵QR Code的截圖先存在手機可是你的QR Code又限當日使用所以很多的青年就在現場重複取得QR Code這個流程那會有點麻煩那有些青年會說那個碰到業者也不曉得自家可不可以用動資券那也不太會操作所以也沒有辦法輔導所以很多青年是建議說"},{"start":10247.345,"end":10261.14,"text":"他們有那個專屬的APP那店家在那個櫃檯放收款的QR code也有放牌子可以讓使用者去掃那這樣就比較方便那我想我也看了一下動資網跟文化幣"},{"start":10262.201,"end":10282.436,"text":"這網路使用的介面文化幣的網站確實可以讓使用者很直覺在首頁就瀏覽最近有什麼藝人活動啦電影啦 展覽等等可是我們動資網就很多就相對陽春了就是說我們在動資網是用營業列別去分類這個讓使用者去搜尋"},{"start":10283.857,"end":10310.117,"text":"可是你用營業類別去分類的話這個學生其實很難懂所以有青藤先生真的要來參考文化幣的APP的藝文消費點的地圖有這個消費點的地圖我們使用者就可以依據所在位置去查詢周遭可以使用動資券的地方所以我想本席針對剛剛提到這個問題是不是我們體育署有相關的規劃改善的措施"},{"start":10310.937,"end":10329.478,"text":"包委員謝謝您那個剛兩階段的部分主要是因為要防避因為之前有到臨的情況所以有兩階段的一個認證那其他您剛提到的不管是APP不管是網頁的呈現體育署雖然在文化設計方面很永遠不如文化部但是我們會跟他們學習謝謝委員的建議我們會回去做好好的改善"},{"start":10329.758,"end":10356.545,"text":"好 所以做一個APP很重要就是說跟文化必要有做一個APP那我想目前因為可以領用動資券的年紀是16到22那我大致看一下使用的情形去年領券率是38%那今年到4月7號為止領券率差不多17.53%整體使用狀況其實並不高所以是不是有什麼樣精進的措施來提高"},{"start":10357.605,"end":10377.477,"text":"這個鼓勵年輕人來使用動資券那後續有沒有像文化幣一樣年齡往下延伸那這個是不是有什麼計畫?鮑委員我們有提出一些進行的方案包括我們可能未來要拜託跟國教署高教技職師一起來協助就是我們在學校舉辦的體育相關的活動、課程、社團、校隊"},{"start":10380.619,"end":10395.147,"text":"還有我們一些家長有讓孩子們在高中的階段有一些運動相關的一些課程其實都可以來推廣所以我們也會接觸家長的這方面的一個協會請他們來協助一起宣導其實學校端他們的運動相關的這個消費在校內發生的其實學校也可以來申請成為店家那我們跟UBike也有結合在全台灣的風景區大概從4月底開始有UBike的情況"},{"start":10408.955,"end":10426.734,"text":"這些也都可以結我們的青春動資券所以我們其實有積極在努力在尋求運動文化這件事情我們也在討論是不是有一類是運動相關的展演或者是一些博覽會之類的我們是不是也把它納入這部分我們內部正在討論當中年齡向下延伸這部分"},{"start":10427.915,"end":10453.191,"text":"委員我這邊我再跟院方這邊做一個請求好 那我是建議說或許說我們如果說有一些達到某些目標的使用者像說看運動賽事啊或者從事室內運動及戶外運動這三大項目都有使用過的人針對這些人來加碼或者說寒暑假也可以加碼這個也提高他們要使用的這個意願啦好 以上謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝怡謹 札韋部長 署長請回座"},{"start":10462.602,"end":10473.156,"text":"好 接下來我們請郭鈺晴委員好 謝謝主席 有請署長好 請署長委員好"},{"start":10480.259,"end":10498.024,"text":"剛剛其實有很多委員都有提到我想你應該知道我等一下接下來要問的一個問題喔足協其實從過去到現在正義一直不斷那在2024年的時候其實也被踢爆就是讓女足的國家隊簽署了這個不平等的合約那包含"},{"start":10498.724,"end":10516.895,"text":"其中的合約有一些所謂的像肖像可以無限期的使用這類非常非常不公平的一個合約在內那另外呢他也曾經積欠過這個女足的薪水一直到最近又出事了那本來預計是在高雄男子足球場"},{"start":10520.458,"end":10536.78,"text":"是昨天应该要来进行跟纽西兰的女足的一个比赛但是呢也因为场地的关系那这个纽西兰队表示安全是绝对不能够容忍退让的底线所以他们就不参赛了"},{"start":10537.48,"end":10562.649,"text":"這個對於台灣一直不斷的我們在講我們現在要推廣足球或者是在足協在這個部分不管是場地也好或者是在我們在跟別人在溝通也好或者是足球足協內部的管理也好因為這個場地在三月下旬仍然持續開放男足的訓練請問這到底是足協的問題還是體育署的問題"},{"start":10564.83,"end":10586,"text":"報告委員 足協內部技術部門跟競賽部門之間的橫向溝通出了很大的問題那既然三月中都是他們接的場地其實他可以把教練講習跟男主的訓練移到別的地方去其實我們國內是沒有缺少訓練的場地我們主要是比賽的場地缺乏那當然這部分我們還是希望足協趕快找到秘書長能把這個橫向的聯繫把它做好那體育署這邊的責任呢"},{"start":10589.568,"end":10616.926,"text":"我們這邊目前我們在跟高雄市這邊也在談我們希望把中正體育場把它做為第三座的A級的場地那目前正在規劃當中那我們還是持續尋覓其他各縣市如果是比較大型的田徑場館是不是也可以有共用來再創造更多的A級場地不然我們的A級賽事場地都永遠在這北高這兩個其實壓力太大了那針對竹鞋這一次的疏失我們是把這一次的補助300萬把它撤銷"},{"start":10617.904,"end":10640.675,"text":"除了這之後要怎麼樣跟足協好好的來做嚴加的管理其實我們去年他3月發生場地的事情的時候我們在6月其實有輔導他們在至少一個月前都要進行草地的加強養護那SOP他們這一次又沒有落實所以我們這次會請他們把它落實把它寫下來書面化要求他們在每一次的比賽過程要有個"},{"start":10641.395,"end":10656.04,"text":"檢核表這一定要落實不是只有書面化就是檢核啦書面化我們紙上彈兵沒有用啊我知道就是要檢核這個是真的是要是執行面的問題啊因為他們就是攻略人員的行政能力因為這一次這一次的整個所有的國際賽事被取消這個對於台灣來講其實是相當丟臉的一件事情沒有錯"},{"start":10659.381,"end":10675.631,"text":"所以足协要付出非常大的一个责任那刚刚其实提到场地的问题我想在去年其实我们也挹注了许多的地区包含高雄然后台中宜兰然后还有新竹我们是不是也正在进行所谓的足球场"},{"start":10676.371,"end":10696.993,"text":"就是符合國際賽事的足球場的這樣子的一個興建或者是我講的是台中的部分我們不是有一個首座的足球運動休閒園區也包含兩座符合國際標準的足球場那預計啦 當時是說預計是在今年會完工那現在的工期到什麼進度 有沒有延長"},{"start":10698.014,"end":10718.757,"text":"台中的部分應該是明年才會完工不過台中的部分它是一面符合國家級的一個size是天然草皮另外一個人工草皮的部分只有在U20以下的size才能夠進行所以明年才會完工對那就跟2023年當初我們講的那個計畫是今年完工是有延宕的這個部分工程本來就比較難預料啦"},{"start":10720.205,"end":10738.644,"text":"所以是明年才會完工接下來我想剛剛其實署長也在其他的委員在質詢的時候有特別提到我們一直在推廣基層足球的一個發展一直在推廣但是全國國小足球世界盃現在是你一定要停辦"},{"start":10739.946,"end":10755.666,"text":"那我們也收到了許多家長的陳情啦那他們其實是很焦慮也很心慌因為孩子呢可能從五年級他有參加到六年級現在他挺辦了但即將要面對的是國中"},{"start":10756.267,"end":10771.854,"text":"那接下來要到國中他是要繼續讓孩子踢足球呢還是我們這個計畫為什麼停辦那當初停辦的原因是什麼或者是說有沒有跟家長來做溝通或者是跟學校校方的基層的這些教練們有來做說明為什麼停辦因為我們在108年創辦"},{"start":10778.117,"end":10802.757,"text":"之後其實是很多很多小學的隊伍都極力的參加到了112學年度已經達到了782隊報名參賽這已經是創下了一個非常好的一個紀錄但是好不容易我們到了高峰結果說今年這個113學年度是要停辦的這個停辦的說明有跟剛剛我提到的家長或者是跟學校的教練有來溝通嗎"},{"start":10804.198,"end":10830.062,"text":"報告委員我們這個問題分兩個層面第一個由於今年的通山以及凍結的因素我們公務預算的部分被要求控管三成的經費所以我們必須把人事費相關還有聯賽選手權益等等我們先保護住還有一些學生的保險等等那這一部備賽我們的確是目前是沒有足夠的預算來進行這場賽事所以不得不捨棄但是我們也同時找了專大學者一起來商討也是一些賽事的"},{"start":10830.802,"end":10856.368,"text":"基層賽事的主辦方來討論我們世界轉型把它變成一個社區的賽事未來我們不排除我們會做社區的就是說不是以學校為單位而已而是以社區包括社區一起納進來一樣是這個年齡層在學童的年齡層來辦理這個賽事但是我們目前的確在公務預算方面我們目前是沒有多餘的預算來做這件事情所以確定全國國小足球世界盃已經是劃下據點了我可以這麼講嗎"},{"start":10860.089,"end":10882.549,"text":"這原因是這樣子因為我們真的就是今年的預算沒有辦法那明年呢我們運動部的部分我們積極爭取我們現在當然有編只是我們積極爭取我們的預算那什麼時候我們才能夠知道說今年停辦我們其他的你剛剛所說的所長所說的一些社區的我們要怎麼樣來個別來做這樣子的一個推廣"},{"start":10883.294,"end":10904.629,"text":"包委員這部分就第二個層面來講我們現在足球的賽事越多隊伍數也越來越多也就是說我們的足球場地其實越來越滿所以我們也很擔心說我們現在在這個時間點來舉辦社區的賽事因為不管是足協其他的聯賽其實都有這個年齡層的賽事都不缺乏"},{"start":10905.109,"end":10932.031,"text":"那我們要不要再增加造成場地更大的負擔我們也是有在跟一些賽事的基層訓練基層的賽事的主辦方來討論那我們會審慎的評估但是對我來講我當然希望比賽越多越好包括我們未來的社區化全民運動孩子的聯賽我們希望能夠在週末盡可能在週末不影響的課業的方式來進行這方面的賽事所以停辦的主因就是因為我們這個會期的同山的部分"},{"start":10933.252,"end":10959.607,"text":"好 那我們想辦法 是 我這邊努力的想辦法好不好 因為我想這個基層足球的發展對於很多的孩子來講 很多的家長來講其實他們是非常非常的抱有希望啦那也是全民的一個運動 尤其是向下殺根的部分好 那再來就是運動彩券發行的這個部分我想呢 這個我還是要問一下 就是署長您自己有買過運動彩券嗎"},{"start":10960.888,"end":10983.954,"text":"報告委員我不被允許我不能買好你沒有買平常朋友家人有買過嗎有聽他們講有買好玩嗎我不知道因為我沒有買過所以你沒有收集到其他人的資料嗎有其實經銷商他們都會跟我們做一些回饋反應那我知道委員要問的是應該是講資率的部分"},{"start":10984.955,"end":10994.666,"text":"這個部分我想我們蒐集到的一些資料就是15個專家一起做了大概750場的一個預測記得是專家那這些專家當中其中有412場是猜對了338場是猜錯了"},{"start":11000.874,"end":11016.359,"text":"命中率是54.9%但是這樣子的命中率到最後還是賠了24,880元那可敬這個誘因還有它的這個應該是說投資報酬率或者是說它的這個中獎率它的"},{"start":11017.48,"end":11032.997,"text":"讓大家吸引大家來買運動彩券的這樣子的吸引力其實是不足的那這個部分我們是不是有可能來做一些鬆綁或者是來做一些改變讓這個獎金的支出率可以提高它的上限"},{"start":11033.658,"end":11053.46,"text":"保委員在現有的架構下運動彩券因為賭博在台灣不是一個容許它不是不被容許它是一個特許的行業那還有社會責任在那其實它獎資率78%是一個一整年度的平均值它其實針對不同的賽事它可以到九十幾或者是到降到六十幾由發行機構自己去做運用"},{"start":11053.92,"end":11077.332,"text":"那當然78%裡面有22%是它的成本就有10%進到我們的國家對這類培訓或者是國際賽事另外有經銷商以及發行機構那我知道經銷商他們其實希望我們國家的部分能夠在一定的收入之下能夠做一個讓利讓這個獎勵率可以有所提升那這部分我們正在做研議那我們當然第三屆已經簽約了那我們希望在第三屆的期間多聽各方的意見"},{"start":11078.593,"end":11100.079,"text":"整理出一個更好的方案來做修法那第四屆的時候就可以按照經銷商他們的期待我想如果有提高這個獎金的比例其實也能夠挹注在運動發展一些基金的項目啦那我想這個是雙贏的一個局面所以其實應該也要來近期之內就是積極的一些研議啦好 謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝郭育晴委員好 署長請回我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":11129.128,"end":11141.39,"text":"好主席在黨委員先進列席的政務機關署長官員會長共同夥伴媒體金淵女士先生雖然大家都問署長還是要讓部長出來走走路散散步來請部長和署長好有請部長署長還沒接上去喔等一下下喔"},{"start":11147.52,"end":11155.065,"text":"那個還沒接上去二委員好現在第一頁 部長好 署長好 來第一頁好 這個請問部長 這邊怎麼唸台灣國小世界盃我去年去參加的時候 他說台灣國小世界盃"},{"start":11176.724,"end":11201.264,"text":"其實呢的確有人這麼斷句念台灣國小世界盃我也覺得蠻認同的啦因為國小世界盃這樣的分林賽前面有委員問到了但是呢很積極在推他讓台灣大大的增加了曝光所以呢難怪我們那些在屏東踢足球的說我們去參加台灣國的小世界盃小朋友參加的了解齁 所以要繼續支持好不好可以嗎 部長"},{"start":11205.326,"end":11223.758,"text":"當然好 謝謝 我們開始正題啦 下一張其實剛剛有很多委員在關心的啦我相信部長署長跟我一樣都沒有參加過這個所謂的地下賭局 應該沒有啦就算有也不能承認啦不過小時候有沒有聽聞一些長輩去那種地下賭場的 有沒有也沒有聽過 有啦不一定可能年齡 有可能聽說長輩去的地下"},{"start":11232.671,"end":11239.334,"text":"請問一下,你認為目前我們地下賭盤跟運動彩券什麼樣的差異?賠率大家都說毫不猶豫賠率為什麼地下賭局的賠率會比較高?我真的問一下,這個要問保證一般我們如果在地下交通"},{"start":11260.389,"end":11278.035,"text":"做莊業莊家是抽多少?你看馬上主要講5%我合理推論他只是聽說啦抽5%嘛那另外95%的賭資是不是拿來當彩金?對不對?那為什麼地下賭盤它可以開的賠率比較高?因為它收的什麼?"},{"start":11279.295,"end":11306.602,"text":"他收的中間的抽選 抽得很少啦但是我們台灣運彩呢 不一樣對不對 來 好所以部長喔 請先回那我們先問署長就好了來 繼續往下走運彩的賠率低啊所以很多民眾跑去打地下球板是不是那剛剛署長有回答啦我們是不是運彩基金為什麼運彩條例為什麼寫總金額獎金支出不得超過 為什麼"},{"start":11308.171,"end":11335.893,"text":"超過78%包委員他是一整年度的平均因為他有22%的這個成本那成本裡面包含他的社會責任有10%要進到運動發展基金培育人才其他是經銷商以及發行機構來對付所以我們來看一下運彩條例的第六點說總金額不得超過78%但是發行機構提出營運計畫維持配套基金主管計畫核定者不在此限所以有沒有空間"},{"start":11336.613,"end":11345.365,"text":"包委員他的意思是指說你在一整年你的不同的賽事有高有低但是一整年平均下來不能超過78他沒有這樣寫啊他是說"},{"start":11347.83,"end":11372.244,"text":"每一單項的運動彩券獎金單次發行的不得超過總金額的78%但是偶爾可以超過但是整年下來不能這個條文我讀不出這個意思同學當然有特殊原因像在我們在疫情期間的時候特殊狀況我們會有一些特殊的做法那那個特殊的話有沒有符合我們法律的規定有符合它准許你可以金主管機關核定的不在此限是不是這樣"},{"start":11374.108,"end":11380.178,"text":"是嘛我們會有獨島小局去審如果他們有提出來的話我們會去審他我知道署長都很謹慎我們還是要看一下"},{"start":11381.144,"end":11407.056,"text":"其實運動財運發行條例我們的獎金支出只能78%我們看一下香港是82%有些是90%90%跟我們台灣的地下球板幾乎差不多了對不對所以香港的可能他沒有去提撥給這些運動基金你所知道香港的這82%他們有把他們的獎金拿去運產拿去做什麼運動支持嗎有沒有包委員只有台灣是獨有的10%全部進運動基金是的"},{"start":11407.916,"end":11424.709,"text":"所以說因為台灣獨有這10%所以台灣的運財要跟其他外國的縱使是合法的都有一個競爭力上的困難你去香港的話就是82%的獎金拿出來啊所以它賠率讓人高嘛那這怎麼去克服?蘇長有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":11425.209,"end":11446.506,"text":"報委員我們跟經銷商在談就是說希望在一定的收入營收之下我們可以在政府的這個10%的比例可以做一個降低讓他們有更多的空間去激勵經銷商來營運抱歉我剛剛有一個比例其實一個比例我們大概是10%是基金12%是行政費78%所以這個行政作業費佔了12%大概你不能動那個10%只能從這12%去調對不對"},{"start":11454.153,"end":11460.601,"text":"包委員這12%就等於是經銷商他們的收入我不覺得他們會願意退讓所以我說其實就是這樣子這跟稱呼抽稅一樣"},{"start":11466.874,"end":11491.559,"text":"你關稅提高進口量降低你能抽到的稅反而變少但是你的關稅降低進口量增加總體的你拿到的絕對金額是多的看比例行政就是銷售的發行單位他好像會說比例降低了嘛但是如果發行量增加很多去地下球板的跑來這裡他是不是總TOTAL的他的可營運的作業費提高"},{"start":11492.379,"end":11512.68,"text":"我同意,因為這是更產業的思維,這是對的。但是因為第三屆已經簽約,這部分我們可能要第四屆才能夠來進行。好,再來我們講第二個事情,因為今天是審條例。運採條例的行政法本席的版本有加上這第四項,但是行政院為什麼把它刪掉?"},{"start":11513.632,"end":11541.815,"text":"報告委員因為其實這個部分在一般的刑法就已經有規定所以沒有必要在這邊繼續在名列啦好你說因為刑法有規定所以我行政法就不名列嘛我們看一下刑法是什麼妨礙公務罪要以執行者是公務員行政機關滅證罪未證罪這是另外是不是但是我們往下看行政法有跟刑法不能同時存在的嗎我們酒駕"},{"start":11543.257,"end":11567.398,"text":"酒駕如果在這個標準,0.15到0.25之間是行政法,累犯無上限扣掉照,對不對?有沒有行政法?有。但是酒測值超過0.25的,就是什麼?公共危險,不能安全價值,這是刑法。所以行政法跟刑法,可能它的行為的對象的程度不同,有可能是客體不同。所以本來行政法跟刑法就可以同時存在,往下看。"},{"start":11568.078,"end":11581.04,"text":"但是你現在運採條例你知道嗎運採條例前面他說的是什麼往前跳兩頁他說的是法人團體這是不是行政機關有沒有行政權有沒有構成妨礙公務沒有"},{"start":11582.199,"end":11599.503,"text":"但是呢如果我們行政機關我們體育署我們要去調查他要主動配合他不主動配合我就可以罰喔但是你來看一下滅政罪跟未政罪往下跳滅政罪跟未政罪第一個妨礙公務要必須對公務員強暴脅迫我們行政法如果說有球團作弊他只要沒有去妨礙公務員他就不構成"},{"start":11608.411,"end":11630.518,"text":"滅政罪我必須檢察官舉證他有偽造、變造或陰秘或隱匿證據或者說他做虛偽陳述這必須針對的是什麼?針對的是自然人球團是自然人嗎?教練可能是啊 球員可能是啊配合打假球 放水這個裡面行政法他沒有妨礙公務啊"},{"start":11631.769,"end":11659.94,"text":"你要舉證他有什麼有這些行為舉證之所在敗訴之所在行政法要求我要調查他有沒有放水打假球我必須要有這些內容的主動陳述但是跳回去行政法怎麼樣再往上行政法只要你不主動配合我就可以罰你了解沒有要不要舉證我叫你把資料交出來我問你那天你跑去哪裡有沒有跟那些莊家那個叫什麼"},{"start":11662.006,"end":11672.886,"text":"賭職的那個聚賭的這些抽頭的人見面吃飯有沒有配合調查他不配合調查那我就可以行政罰了了不了解"},{"start":11673.789,"end":11695.716,"text":"所以我要說明的是說 我們在整個條例的設計上第一 行政罰跟刑罰是可以並存的第二 刑罰罰的是自然人他的妨礙權利的課題是公務員當我們要確保運採 運動健全發展不會被職業賭博滲透我們必須行政機關 掌有一定的要求他能夠配合調查"},{"start":11696.756,"end":11714.502,"text":"他如果不配合調查你就是罰他什麼 行政罰嘛他可以行政救濟嘛但是刑法就很嚴格刑法你必須證明說球員或教練有跟這些賭客有一些 你有證據證明他有隱匿 有滅證罪 有未證罪不然的話你罰不到他往下看 我們看結論往前跳一下"},{"start":11717.912,"end":11734.025,"text":"好所以呢 個人如果觸犯運採的第21條第4項行政院說我們回歸刑法 我們沒有問題對不對 個人自然能觸犯了嘛他妨礙公安怎麼樣嘛但是如果是法人跟團體 他違反這第4項目前你根據刑法你罰不到"},{"start":11735.544,"end":11756.612,"text":"這樣了解差別了齁我們那個體育署跟我們教育部有法務嘛你們回去研究一下因為我們今天是審法條所以我希望呢你們跟行政院也溝通一下今天委員的提案我們希望未來能夠確保我們的運動在職業運動的過程當中不會運踩的發行造成的我們就要防度過去看結論"},{"start":11758.24,"end":11776.762,"text":"我們就是希望說除了保障10%的運動中基金提撥外請你檢討獎金的支出率提高的投注誘因遏止地下賭盤的壯大而且也不會損及到承銷商的權益第二運彩條例保留未配合調查的行政法配合刑法的相關法則才能完善防弊"},{"start":11777.603,"end":11794.414,"text":"署長 回去要不要研究一下會 我們會把委員的意見帶回去研究帶回去給誰研究 給部長研究嗎我們會跟法務部一起來研究這部分什麼時候可以給本席一個答覆這部分 我們一個月內應該是可以好 一個月內 好那就兩個題目 謝謝您 謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員 謝謝署長好 我們接下來請張雅玲委員"},{"start":11811.585,"end":11836.013,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請體育署署長好 有請鄭署長委員好好 署長早安我想我先快快地問一下有關於運財條例的部分就是說其實剛剛前面的仲嘉斌委員也講得非常清楚就是說我們要如何提高現有的獎金支出率來增加更多的誘因 避免進入賭牌這也是許多 不管是運財公會所希望的一個方向"},{"start":11837.213,"end":11853.252,"text":"我想剛剛因為其實說會去研究如何的去調整我們現在的一些行政支出我們還是必須要去確保我們要給運發的這個基金不能夠受影響那如果這有相關的研究報告我希望也可以提供給我們辦公室那這下一個問題呢我想我們就針對這個因為現在運採雖然已經有"},{"start":11857.656,"end":11874.168,"text":"總類逐年增加但是大多數還是以國外賽事為主那國內大概也只有中華職棒可是其他賽事如果是像GP BL PLG也都還沒有相關的賽事來開盤那如果民眾想要針對這些賽事來投注的時候勢必就可以看到這網路上面非常容易就可以找到一些地下賭盤的一個資訊"},{"start":11876.67,"end":11884.176,"text":"所以我想了解就是說因為這個可能會讓民眾在不管是做非法的投資也好那他可能也會進入一個詐騙的範疇之內所以我們到底有沒有可能來加開更多屬於我們的國內的賽事呢"},{"start":11891.789,"end":11915.069,"text":"報告委員其實這部分我們持續跟台灣運財一直在研究啦那他們給我的回覆是說因為這兩個TPPL跟PPL都是一個新的資訊不夠嘛是不是數據還不夠可能需要一年的時間至少讓他run一季run完之後他才有足夠的資訊所以這樣子拼起來就是明年應該可以的是嗎有機會但是說實在我不是這方面專家他們有一個專業專人在做數據的分析啦所以這部分我會持續要求他們"},{"start":11915.891,"end":11934.959,"text":"這部分大概什麼時候我們可以知道他們分析的結果呢因為地下土盤還是要一年之後所以應該是要明年所以預估他們就是明年的時候我們才會有一些相關的研究報告是嗎那除了這個除了這個籃球賽事之外那其他的一些國內型的賽事一樣就是要穩定的賽事數據那這部分要去做評估當然他們最怕的是愛國盤"},{"start":11941.321,"end":11959.938,"text":"就是說我們12強中華隊對誰那大家都壓中華隊那他們要嘛就是大贏不然就慘輸所以他們的數據分析有他們的專業那這部分我還是要適度的尊重他們的數據分析的專業那我還是會持續拜託他們就是還是要針對有興趣的國內有興趣的投資標的要能夠盡量開盤"},{"start":11962.2,"end":11984.423,"text":"接下来我还是要问一下有关于女主我想大家都问得非常多我也听了非常多署长的解释跟说明但我想先问第一个问题就是署长过去也担任过主席的秘书长你也知道这是一个非常重要的工作但是主席的秘书长多久没有人了?从我之后就没有了对,从2023之后就再也没有人了那在过程之中体育署怎么样协助他们呢?"},{"start":11985.937,"end":12009.407,"text":"其實我們當然持續要求他們去尋找但是他們就是找不到有人敢去接這個秘書長那我們是不是可以去預判接下來足協要舉辦的相當多的賽事還是會出去出狀況的確委員的疑慮是有存在的所以我們接下來我們當然輔導他針對在他們的賽事前的準備的檢核這一塊我們會加強力道去監督啦"},{"start":12010.063,"end":12027.855,"text":"好 因為我想這一次最大的問題是他9月去年9月才去做一些場地的租借跟協調的部分所以他基本上也做不太到什麼場地啦這是第一個問題那這個行政作業現在就因為缺乏秘書長帶領整個團隊去做所以這會造成第一個不要說這個啦這個一直以來"},{"start":12028.635,"end":12051.33,"text":"出了非常非常多的包啦我覺得體育署可能要更積極的來去協助他們就例如他有一些相關賽事而且去請領我們的預算補助的時候呢我們應該要更早之前就要去監督了這個部分可以嗎報告委員我們其實有一個補助辦法SOP的整個的審查機制啦不過的確草皮真的算是單項協會的專業啦那部分我們的確比較不會"},{"start":12053.812,"end":12060.768,"text":"真的一直去頂啦但是基於這次的原因我們接下來會對竹協這一塊會做比較強的力度的一個監督"},{"start":12061.807,"end":12086.12,"text":"因為我想 因為據我所知 足協提供給紐西蘭女主的照片是一個形象照啦 與實際上來台的狀況落差非常非常的大所以這個在協助他們未來 如果要給予任何補助的話我覺得這都要特別的注意喔 它是不是提供真實的現場給對方再來就是說 3月31號其實體育署就已經知道沒有場地可以使用但是當時有沒有集結去協調"},{"start":12087.441,"end":12089.322,"text":"其他的A級場地剛好都已經有人在使用了就沒有辦法"},{"start":12095.202,"end":12120.963,"text":"好 了解那我想因為接下來這個學童杯這禮拜又是在男子足球場我自己其實我去了好幾次男子足球場我覺得他們其實是蠻認真在維護的所以我覺得這件事情應該不是讓男子足球場來杯這個鍋應該真正要杯這個鍋的應該還是要回到足協自己有沒有及早去協調那再來就是說因為這個沒有及早去協調也造成了我們其實"},{"start":12122.404,"end":12136.369,"text":"第一個是解鎖協調的問題啦第二個問題我其實非常疑惑其實好像足協能夠協調的場地只有男子足球場耶其他的場地他是沒有辦法協調是他沒有能力協調還是說他都太晚去協調"},{"start":12138.23,"end":12160.352,"text":"包委員其實像照片這個外環是台中的賽事上年盃他們後來有移到西屯去不過我覺得國內目前我們的足球場地隨著我們基層的足球蓬勃發展的確在場地方面的確是不太夠所以這部分我還是持續在協調各個縣市希望縣市首長可以把土地能夠挪出來讓我們建更多的足球場地"},{"start":12161.429,"end":12184.556,"text":"好 我覺得場地是一個問題啦但是足協還是要持續的來監督那再來就是說這也是跟足協有關係啦因為昨天他公布了這個消息就是勝利聯賽要跟足協的青年青年聯賽來正式合併嘛那接下來如果我們再去勝利聯賽是一個蠻不錯的聯賽過去的風評都很好現在跟足協合辦的時候其實坦白說我非常擔心我非常擔心場地會出包"},{"start":12186.017,"end":12205.792,"text":"如果你主席的這個作業系統的話,所以這個麻煩請署長一定要強力的要求,好不好?法務委員,據我所知啦,我想他們的結合主要也是在場地的部分有一個合作,因為我們現在就講,場地真的不是太不太夠,所以他們的合作是,我想這個方向是有它原因在,不過勝利連山他們主要負責還是在U14以下啦,"},{"start":12206.492,"end":12233.297,"text":"對這是因為足協的協調能力跟許多的應變能力對許多來生不要說女主好了少年盃光報名也就粗暴所以這個我希望真是要強力的來執行跟監督我們的足協的這些相關的問題因為它畢竟還是我們足球基層運動一個蠻重要的一個主辦單位那再來另外一個就是說國小世界盃要停辦剛剛我也聽了組長的一些說明但是我還是要講就是"},{"start":12234.017,"end":12244.9,"text":"足球世界盃的参与对数其实是远高于少年盃跟学童盃它是每一年都在增加的所以这个赛事其实还是非常非常重要第二个就是说"},{"start":12246.325,"end":12266.917,"text":"他這個賽事我有聽到說要改成八人制我有聽說要從五人制變成八人制這個是不是可以署長跟我做個說明一下目前因為預算的因素目前我們還沒有辦法去附辦所以也沒有所謂的競賽規程這方面都其實都沒有辦法所以我們現在都是在討論的階段而已那我這邊當然"},{"start":12268.018,"end":12285.296,"text":"不希望任何的賽事因此就沒有了所以我們這邊持續的想辦法去爭取預算那這樣聽起來就是預算的影響因為這一次三檢預算的關係動山的部分造成了這個世界盃沒有辦法舉辦那還有沒有相關的賽事受影響呢主要是公務預算的部分是這個賽事受比較大的影響"},{"start":12286.576,"end":12314.142,"text":"對那其他的聯賽的部分我們盡量保持盡量維持但是我們就是必須要去把一些給學校的補助啦等等去做一個刪減這個是不得已的做法所以這個是目前沒有就是未來如果要復辦的話是沒有打算走八人制嗎這個我想確認一下這個部分我們還是要跟專業的這些基層的訓練基層的這些賽事主辦方去多討論因為這部分說實在我真的不是專業的部分那我們還是會廣大建言"},{"start":12314.462,"end":12337.903,"text":"那委員如果說希望家長也能夠進來一起討論這部分我們會要求同仁一起把它納入好 我想我還是要講到一個非常重要的重點就是說因為世界盃其實對孩子來說還是非常重要因為雖然有很多的一些俱樂盃剛剛講的少年盃或是學童盃其實是有很多所謂中產階級的家庭他們其實是可以去支付可以去參加而是對於一些偏鄉來說可能世界盃是他們比較有辦法因為有補助辦法"},{"start":12339.324,"end":12355.122,"text":"所以他比較有機會可以去參加的比賽現在你把他停辦了就等於是這些偏鄉的學校他要怎麼去參加這樣子的一個比賽呢可能就失去了跟全國競技的機會所以我這個部分我還是希望是不是有辦法教育部也可以一起來協助讓我們世界盃可以持續的來舉辦"},{"start":12356.924,"end":12370.997,"text":"因為這對偏鄉來說是一個非常重要的第二個部分如果要往八仁寺的話我覺得場地會是一個問題因為我們總不能讓小孩子因為各縣市有八仁寺的場地非常非常的少我們總不能讓他第一次比賽的時候就是第一次練習的機會這是絕對不可以的"},{"start":12372.879,"end":12390.589,"text":"所以這個地方我希望就是要好好的審慎的思考第二個還有要往八人制發展的時候我覺得偏鄉以及女族來說學生數非常少要湊到八個人尤其是女生要湊到八年其實也是非常的不容易所以這個可能也是要去思考跟評估的一個重點那最後我還是要講就是"},{"start":12392.145,"end":12409.057,"text":"這件事情的確會影響到一些偏鄉的孩子所以才是希望部長一起來支持讓我們的世界盃可以持續的來舉辦但是會後我也會再做一個問題就是過去有一些學校他們為了要拿補助案所以是用籃球隊或是棒球隊的學生"},{"start":12410.498,"end":12424.246,"text":"為了拿這個補助所以他們不是真正的組成了足球隊所以這個會後我也會跟體育署這邊來再繼續討論這個議題因為我們還是要確保世界盃是真的能夠讓基層的足球可以持續的生耕好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝張雅玲委員好 署長請回我們接下來請林楚英委員四分鐘"},{"start":12440.076,"end":12441.157,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請鄭局長好請鄭署長"},{"start":12449.517,"end":12469.157,"text":"委員好署長好我想剛剛因為前面已經有蠻多委員都問到了有關運彩條例的相關的部分但是因為我們知道因為從這個2024年的世界棒球賽我們拿到冠軍再加上周思齊他退役的時候大家也都在考慮到就是當年那個職棒簽賭真的對台灣"},{"start":12471.039,"end":12495.147,"text":"造成了極大的傷害那麼要不是我們這一次又拿回到這個世界冠軍了我相信很多離開的這些棒球迷都不會再回來但是我覺得今天我們好好的來談一下是運彩條例第13條之三確實是有講到是運動競技的相關的所謂內部人員都不可以來從事相關運動彩券的買賣但是我也知道說以目前為止的話"},{"start":12496.668,"end":12516.546,"text":"我們中華職棒其實CPBL已經有納入一些內規那麼我們也知道是當一些特殊的這個比賽它在所謂運動熱期的時候我們的台彩也會開出相關的這個所謂投注的項目那麼包括像2024年巴黎奧運的時候"},{"start":12518.688,"end":12531.936,"text":"籃球啦 羽球啦 桌球啦平常可能不會特別被開的就會開出來所以我要就教的是各個協會或者是特定的體育團體體育署這邊有盤點了他們有沒有針對運採來做一些內規呢報委員其實大部分的賽事投注還是在職業的聯盟為主啦是所以這部分"},{"start":12546.24,"end":12573.691,"text":"協會的部分目前的確是比較沒有在這方面的規定因為他們被列入投注標的機會的確是比較少機會少但是當他是成為熱門比賽的重要項目或者是跟台灣涉入比較深的時候因為我自己個人認為啦從與其他綠不如先自綠所以我在這邊是善意的提醒我們體育署在這裡其實可以請他們做一些內規上面的防範"},{"start":12574.631,"end":12590.844,"text":"而不是說他們都完全不能投注因為畢竟我們都知道這裡面有運發基金在裡頭他們如果要去玩都是做公益但是是不是能夠去盤點在相關熱門賽事它有可能成為比如說2024年的巴黎奧運"},{"start":12592.725,"end":12606.681,"text":"它也成為其中的這些項目的時候在內規能夠做一些相關的避嫌或規範我覺得防範與未然是有其必要性另外當然就是我們知道的"},{"start":12607.722,"end":12618.509,"text":"如果你成為內部人的時候我們在運採的相關的法規上面都有規定但是他有沒有可能委託朋友或者是利用他人的帳號來投注其實這些都是有可能的所以我認為如果我們能夠把這個所謂防堵堵起來那麼在內規上面做一些"},{"start":12628.174,"end":12647.782,"text":"定義我相信會對於外界的疑慮會稍微少一點局長可不可以署長可不可以去就是來做一個相關的了解跟查查然後事後再給我們相關的報告好不好最後我想其實大家都會非常關注就是到底為什麼地下賭盤會比這個所謂的我們現在真正的台財來的除了賠率除了獲獎的機率之外另外當然也是有可能就是"},{"start":12657.967,"end":12677.787,"text":"是不是你總是要走到投注站去那麼在數位化的部分我們現在也跟威剛合作了嘛那麼在數位化或者是網頁的部分有沒有可能更加強還是說就像我前面所講的在防毒網的部分因為擔心太方便投注以至於這個太熱"},{"start":12679.469,"end":12703.816,"text":"那在這個部分您怎麼來看就是說因為我如果一定要走到投注站我在所謂的投注數位化的簡便上面我如果用手機就可以操作它如果有一個專屬的APP而不要是網頁版而且常常卡卡那麼這個部分是不是能夠找到這個平衡點那尤其是我們現在找了一個科技公司來跟"},{"start":12704.696,"end":12729.846,"text":"所謂運材來做合作的時候那這過程當中是不是可以在數位化投注上面多做加強鮑委員其實我們是蠻鼓勵在線上投注這一塊因為這一塊我們可以拿到12%的那個分潤到我們的運動發展基金不過的確啦威剛它本身是科技公司我們會再跟他們再做了解看看能不能再更優化他們的界面好 OK 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林楚英委員"},{"start":12735.908,"end":12749.854,"text":"署長請回我們現在請鄭天才鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在我們請林德福林德福 林德福委員不在那我們現在先來處理臨時提案那今天有委員提出臨時提案有兩案請宣讀案有"},{"start":12761.943,"end":12779.964,"text":"鉴于近期发生台东县官山国小学前特幼班正式校室内同案件其中疑点重重此事件显见国教署对于地方教育局处的监管不力原请国教署针对下列事项于两周内向本委员会提出检讨报告一"},{"start":12780.825,"end":12800.691,"text":"依據教保相關人員違法事件調查處理辦法教育局處應於兩天內決議是否受理台東縣教育局教育處早在114年1月9日即接獲通報卻遲至1月20日才決議受理明顯違反規定國教署對地方教育局處應建立監管機制"},{"start":12801.471,"end":12819.086,"text":"以處理地方教育局處違反規定處理涉嫌包庇吃案等狀況二校方第一時間提供的監視器畫面是錯的求員兼裁判刻意隱匿私報事實家長直到2月27日才第一次被調查小組通知看監視器"},{"start":12820.427,"end":12835.842,"text":"方才得知受內情狀,早在去年該名教師就有施暴紀錄,卻因沒有裝設監視器沒有證據使得教師繼續留任,導致更多幼童受害。由上述可知,現行監視器調閱辦法應全盤檢討,例如建立違規處分,幼教與特教應強制裝設監視器。"},{"start":12844.069,"end":12861.506,"text":"確保易受侵害學童群體之權益並保障家長合理調閱監視器若地方政府處理不力應建立利害關係人直接向國教署的檢舉機制避免官官相互層層隱匿提案人 吳立華 李坤澄 范雲 林益錦 陳秀寶"},{"start":12864.431,"end":12888.458,"text":"按由美國總統川普4月3日宣布對台32%關稅前夕3月31日美國貿易代表署在2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告中點名台灣限制美豬、美牛、馬鈴薯、基改食品等政策是不必要的貿易障礙甚至直接要求我國取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食品的禁令"},{"start":12889.69,"end":12910.057,"text":"我國學校衛生法第23條第三項明文規定學校供應膳食及食材應優先採用中央農業主管機關認證之在地優良農業產品並禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其初級加工品且教育部也在第一時間發文回應依法禁用並落實執行"},{"start":12911.477,"end":12927.844,"text":"學童健康是全民底線,並非單純貿易議題,而是台灣下一代健康的根本問題,並要求教育部向行政院台美經貿談判小組表達,絕不會拿學童健康作為談判的籌碼,並堅持遵循學校衛生法"},{"start":12929.425,"end":12945.579,"text":"條規定不開放基改食品進校園且將禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其初級加工品等文字明定於研修中資教育部版學校公參法草案中提案人萬美玲、柯志恩、葛如欽宣讀完畢"},{"start":12947.401,"end":12970.04,"text":"好 我們先來處理第一案第一案因為提案委員吳立華不在那可是本席是聯署委員那所以我看教育部有什麼意見 有沒有修正文字謝謝委員 謝謝主席我想這一個第一個提案 臨時提案是不是能夠有部分的文字修正"},{"start":12972.219,"end":12994.86,"text":"就是說按由的第二行裡面持四件顯件到監管不立這個是不是可以刪除然後把第三行的兩週我們可以改為一週其他我想我們就尊重委員的這中間好像有一些筆誤的東西第二點第二點的第四行"},{"start":12996.662,"end":13025.143,"text":"沒有裝設監視器沒有證據他寫他可能這個可能要修正一下證據他可能寫錯寫證據好那那針對這個部長教育部這邊的修正文字本席沒有意見所以第一案有沒有其他委員有意見那如果沒有意見的話那我們第二案就修正通過那第二案提案委員有什麼說明沒有"},{"start":13027.598,"end":13027.82,"text":"萬美玲議員"},{"start":13042.316,"end":13066.313,"text":"我想谢谢赵伟今天早上其实在咨询的时候有跟部长交换过意见首先非常谢谢部长在3月31号当美国贸易代表署提出来的时候部长有在第一时间去回应说我们目前都是依法禁用对于我们现在所谓被点名的台湾限制的美猪美牛或者是马铃薯"},{"start":13066.773,"end":13089.302,"text":"基改食品这些被列为美国认为是不必要的贸易障碍甚至于直接要求我们能够取消现在学童一样午餐不得使用基改食品的禁令教育部在第一时间回应说我们目前都是依法禁用我想这非常的好但是当然本席也会比较担心因为基改食品的禁用其实第一个我们有明令在学校卫生法第23条当中第二个"},{"start":13089.722,"end":13111.64,"text":"我们学校所有的这个学校的这个营养午餐的业者也好或者营养午餐的执迷老师其实都已经从过去到现在这么多年了我们只严守着这个守护孩子的健康所以在这个部分的话我们是希望说因为我们即将在这个政府院长要去这个美国去做一些沟通谈判"},{"start":13112.381,"end":13136.532,"text":"那是不是呢在能夠守住孩子健康的這件事情上我們能夠繼續達成共識能夠持續的來嚴守我們學校衛生法第23條那第一點沒有問題就是我們在學校供應餐食的時候食材要能夠使用在地的優良農產品那第二個也就是我們在禁止使用含基因改造的生鮮食材及其出級的加工品這個部分那教育部能夠一本"},{"start":13137.452,"end":13164.36,"text":"过往到现在守护孩子的初衷那么你也能够跟我们这个妇美团能够来讲我想守住孩子的健康是我们大家共同的一个坚持所以呢做这个临时提案那也希望在未来我们在这个新的这个学校营养午餐专法出来的时候在这当中也能够明令我们能够禁止这个基改的食品已经过去在我们学校卫生法第23条当中相关的规范"},{"start":13165.02,"end":13193.532,"text":"那看教育部這邊好 那教育部有沒有補充說明謝謝委員 謝謝主席我想有關委員所提的這個我們大概也大概有部分的文字修正就是說這個精神基本上我們是認同的也就是說在第二段裡邊是不是加一個維我國衛生法後面然後第二段的倒數第二行花文回應是不是把花文兩個字也同意可以刪除"},{"start":13194.592,"end":13218.898,"text":"沒有 那個已經刪掉啦那已經刪了那第三段就是守住學童 剛才委員所提的守住學童健康是全民底線守住是不是加兩個字然後另外第三段的倒數第二行將禁止使用這個將到最後一段的最後一行的民定儀這是不是能夠同意刪除 然後"},{"start":13220.137,"end":13245.331,"text":"研修中之教育部板加高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例括弧草案不得排除學校衛生法第23條第三項有關禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其初級加工品之規定以上 懇請委員支持"},{"start":13246.468,"end":13262.779,"text":"好 那其他委員有沒有意見我們請張雅玲委員我想對於那個教育部的一個版本我沒有什麼意見但是有個提醒就是說因為現在就是還是在談判的過程之中所以我們可能還是要跟這個經貿辦事處保持一些密切的聯絡"},{"start":13264.58,"end":13286.75,"text":"跟那個聯繫這樣子吼那所以基本上我們還是尊重現行的一個法令好的一些規範那但是我們想我們也是應該要尊重這個教育部的一個行政的行政權的部分吼所以這邊做一個提醒 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那還有沒有其他委員要補充說明的或者要表達意見的好 陳佩玉委員"},{"start":13291.169,"end":13309.836,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請問一下教育部在這個提案裡面我們有看到學校衛生法23條有明文規定那這個明文規定目前在各縣市落實的狀況或者是監督集合的狀態是什麼是不是真的可以目前執行行政措施上的執行真的可以讓我們的家長放心"},{"start":13311.277,"end":13328.836,"text":"可不可以請教育部說明一下因為我在想就確實現在是處於在討論階段但是目前我們不管我們就算沒有目前就算沒有專法可是目前因為學校營養午餐除了有農業部相關的食材補助然後有學校衛生法的把關"},{"start":13329.557,"end":13350.345,"text":"那甚至我們其實有非常多的抽檢都有在進行那相關的食安事件也確實越來越少的情況下其實我也不是很確定說像這樣的提案是不是可以不一定要提因為我們本來就有學校衛生法23條在照顧孩子們的食安這件事情而且食安也不會只有基改的問題啦我想要請教育部回應一下好 教育部說明一下"},{"start":13350.985,"end":13373.104,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員關心主要我們現在目前大概有平台所有的營養午餐他都會登錄在這個平台然後他所用的以我們現在各縣市實際的在營養午餐的推動就是直接落實在這個營養午餐的契約這個採購契約裡面他提供食材的一個契約裡面"},{"start":13374.986,"end":13399.709,"text":"要求廠商要嚴格遵守這個三張一Q然後國有的優質的這個農產品我想在這個部分基本上我們的學童以現況來講就不會有觸及到所謂的這個衛生學校衛生法裡面第23條第三項裡面提供相關的大家所擔心的這些基改的生鮮的食材以上"},{"start":13401.636,"end":13419.546,"text":"好 裴委員你要補充嗎那主席我可不可以有一個不情之請我們可不可以休息五分鐘討論一下這個內容因為我認為我自己的小孩也都一直在學校吃營養午餐所以我也真的非常認同萬委員的擔心跟顧慮我也知道很多家長都很擔心因為我們確實對於基改食品的不理解"},{"start":13419.986,"end":13437.631,"text":"那我們可不可以討論一下文字內容在照顧孩子們的權益照顧家長的食安擔憂同時也讓衛福部真的是可以有空間好好做事的情況下我們再確定這個文字內容不知道萬委員可不可以接受好 那我們就先休息好 謝謝萬委員 謝謝好 先休息五分鐘"},{"start":13502.534,"end":13505.102,"text":"谢谢观看下集再见"},{"start":13526.314,"end":13545.143,"text":"走不掉了 老闆哥他一點也不適合我還去哪裡 接見完畢了可以啊 回來一天只需要你多一欄那邊啊那天到我一天多一欄都不完畢了"},{"start":13547.176,"end":13563.473,"text":"請問請問"},{"start":13567.261,"end":13569.423,"text":"對阿倫幫我解釋一下好不好我知道阿倫很想知道阿倫的問題阿倫很想知道阿倫的問題"},{"start":13591.228,"end":13601.737,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13613.012,"end":13616.661,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13626.515,"end":13636.198,"text":"你不得用排審嗎?"},{"start":13655.043,"end":13666.084,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13708.2,"end":13720.162,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13752.78,"end":13753.622,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":13782.364,"end":13795.227,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13803.43,"end":13807.232,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13823.49,"end":13843.951,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13843.951,"end":13844.852,"text":"然後放水之後 它還會有透露"},{"start":13869.113,"end":13896.152,"text":"然後那個顧名義就是說 說說有一個樣子 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的 它有一個不搞不大的"},{"start":13899.497,"end":13922.312,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13923.587,"end":13926.471,"text":"我們都知道,我們就是不標準,不標準就是關鍵的位置,不是不標準的位置。"},{"start":13941.903,"end":13962.602,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13963.893,"end":13963.913,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":14004.774,"end":14005.354,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14012.316,"end":14016.838,"text":"今天在教育部參觀的是死刑討論"},{"start":14041.428,"end":14064.382,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14086.673,"end":14086.693,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":14099.816,"end":14100.677,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14115.674,"end":14116.254,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。"},{"start":14146.121,"end":14146.161,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14173.704,"end":14173.744,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14185.887,"end":14189.808,"text":"這裏太兇了這裏太兇了這裏太兇了這裏太兇了這裏太兇"},{"start":14209.754,"end":14232.341,"text":"這張照片是在2012年7月1日拍攝的"},{"start":14243.924,"end":14244.204,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14268.865,"end":14287.312,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14316.566,"end":14317.566,"text":"我看能不能農業併服"},{"start":14329.368,"end":14330.569,"text":"那這個就先講到這裡"},{"start":14359.164,"end":14360.913,"text":"到這裏,然後自然有一點暗"},{"start":14362.739,"end":14376.002,"text":"因為它是我的命運所以我是覺得就這一季就不難了因為委員的精神我們會守住嘛你的精神就是在後面這個我們是會完全守住的方法"},{"start":14389.224,"end":14408.558,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14411.783,"end":14418.866,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14431.749,"end":14460.64,"text":"對,對,對,對,對,對"},{"start":14460.64,"end":14470.947,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14474.917,"end":14492.71,"text":"好 沒問題 沒問題 好好 等一下"},{"start":14499.534,"end":14521.181,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那剛剛溝通的過程對 剛剛溝通的過程現在原提案萬美林委員有同意做一些文字的修正那是不是再請部長做這個最後的文字的修正的闡述謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":14529.744,"end":14536.493,"text":"是不是按鈕能夠改為美國第一句-刪除有鑑於3月31號加兩個有鑑於三個字3月31美國貿易代表處"},{"start":14549.244,"end":14550.885,"text":"那後面就是跟剛剛的修正一樣"},{"start":14572.95,"end":14597.651,"text":"我確認一下好不好 因為那個部長講的不是太順那我們按由我把它改成第一句我們就同意 我同意就把它刪掉但我們改成有鑒於3月31號美國貿易代表署USTR在2025對外貿易障礙評估報告中點名台灣限制美豬美牛馬鈴薯基改食品等政策是不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":14598.291,"end":14620.836,"text":"然後甚至直接改成並要求我國取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食品的禁令然後驚嘆號改成句點第一段改這樣的好不好那其他的部分的話是不是就照剛才好OK好那其他委員有沒有其他意見好那如果這樣的話我們就修正通過"},{"start":14622.381,"end":14633.593,"text":"好 那我們接下來就來繼續質詢我們請洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在不好意思 不好意思 我一直看那邊 不好意思 不好意思"},{"start":14646.637,"end":14661.048,"text":"請主席記得雖然你是統一私名我是兄弟相名但是我們兩個還是可以在關心教育文化體育的部分好好努力來謝謝請鄭部長跟鄭署長好有請部長署長來部長署長"},{"start":14673.527,"end":14692.036,"text":"很嚴肅的還是要講一下紐西蘭女足來台灣到最後沒有辦法舉辦比賽的這個事情所有球迷都沒有辦法接受我知道早上你已經講了丟臉兩個字但我覺得還是要釐清幾個部分跟真相以及事實還原記取這個教訓因為這真的已經是國際笑話了"},{"start":14694.578,"end":14708.391,"text":"聽說連紐西蘭他們球員那邊也都有來關心說為什麼台灣那麼先進的國家為什麼會到最後連一個場地都沒有辦法打我想請教一下到底這一個比賽什麼時候確定我們邀請紐西蘭女足來辦"},{"start":14709.292,"end":14728.809,"text":"抱怨這部分是紐西蘭主動來邀請希望來我們我國來什麼時候確定的是在11月的時候確認去年11月對去年11月10月邀請11月確認去年11月嗎對所以有大半年的時間那那個時候場地就已經確定是在楠梓了嗎是"},{"start":14729.914,"end":14753.554,"text":"那時候男子的場地有沒有要求說要符合相關的標準包委員在兩國的有這種小型的積分賽只要兩國同意就可以雖然它不是A級的場地但是是可以使用的但這是睽違五年的國際女子足球隊的一個邀請賽是包委員就是當時什麼時候開始售票"},{"start":14756.357,"end":14779.488,"text":"幫委員這部分我沒有掌握到但是他們對於A級的場地當時的確就接不到了三月二十一號開始售票那什麼時候才知道這個場地真的非常不堪四月一號他們有他們是誰就是紐西蘭跟竹寫他們有這樣子的一個疑慮出現那四月五號確認無法進行四月一號四月六號才確認"},{"start":14783.243,"end":14804.9,"text":"在這個過程裡面 署長部長那我們自己的國家的女足足球隊什麼時候知道這個場地不能使用這個期間女足的國家隊總教練他其實有參與討論有嗎有確定嗎你說這個期間是指什麼時候就是他4月1號開始陸陸續續4月1號開始署長部長這就是我想表達的重點"},{"start":14810.154,"end":14833.971,"text":"人家紐西蘭女足你還可以推說她們遠在紐西蘭遠在其他國家不清楚說我們男子球場的一個狀況3月21號給她開賣球票去年11月同意但我們男子的足球狀況到底怎麼樣不清楚那但是我們自己國家的女子足球隊也是一樣在4月1號跟紐西蘭女足同一天時間知道說這個場地是這個樣子不覺得很離譜嗎"},{"start":14840.17,"end":14864.515,"text":"如果說我們今天保護球員是兩方的責任不是紐西蘭女足排名比較前面就比較要保護台灣女足一樣要保護那台灣女足為什麼沒有事先不管是足協 不管相關單位我們人都已經在台灣那為什麼沒有事先讓台灣女足的球員 教練去了解到這個場地能不能拿出來用"},{"start":14867.315,"end":14891.366,"text":"否則等到讓外國人不要說外國月亮比較圓但是讓外國人來跟我們自己的球員教練代表一起去看場地的時候才發覺說你們要拿這個場地給我們用不能使用沒有辦法踢對於紐西蘭女足當然他們這是國際性的問題但對我們台灣女足呢情何以堪"},{"start":14895.894,"end":14919.821,"text":"如果沒有紐西蘭女足的堅持我請教一個比較不客氣的如果沒有紐西蘭女足的堅持說他們拒絕比賽那會不會我們就趕鴨子上架台灣女足的聲音就被淹沒了然後到最後如果今天是換作是另外一個球隊另外一個比賽不是國際性的 是國內性的是不是台灣女足有可能就被趕鴨子上架因為3月21號已經賣票啦"},{"start":14921.792,"end":14927.436,"text":"我在3月21號已經賣票了我沒有讓我們自己女足的球員知道你要在什麼場地比賽"},{"start":14929.005,"end":14956.36,"text":"那結果賣票了主辦單位到時候就講說已經賣票了沒辦法啊不然你們就踢吧跟委員報告我想我的態度心情是跟委員一樣的這就沒有任何理由體育署內部包含在對這個單項協會怎麼樣去輔導監督責無旁貸我想我們一定這個事情一定會深切檢討而且不許再有相同的這個事件再發生"},{"start":14956.9,"end":14971.695,"text":"部長,你講的話很衰愧,但是具體的作為是什麼?體育署補助足協,即便體育署有講是說這一次的這個國際高警賽有沒有補助經費?沒有補助經費,但是體育署補助足協一年多少錢?"},{"start":14973.035,"end":15001.696,"text":"巴爾園去年是一億多不過大部分是在培訓跟一億一千多萬嘛沒有大部分都在培訓啦本席看了你相關資料有聯賽有培訓計畫有針對後續國際賽項目的相關的一些培訓計畫但是這些計畫裡面說實在話這也是一環啊以賽養賽邀請賽這也是一環這也是培訓也是為女足的一個發展來努力啊那你現在"},{"start":15002.967,"end":15011.074,"text":"有任何的究責嗎足協明年的補助一樣一億多雙雙領 雙手拿包委員這部分我們會審慎評估啦關於選手的權益部分我們當然還是要維繫但是在賽事的部分一次的這樣的狀況毀掉我們過去努力了多久的時間"},{"start":15024.977,"end":15036.08,"text":"我們一直講是說從2017年六年足球計畫然後開始這樣子推台灣要發展足球排名沒有往前就算了現在還讓國際知道說我們的場地也不能用最後也不要只是一味苛責體育署今年會掛牌變運動部"},{"start":15050.914,"end":15067.78,"text":"相關有沒有全責單位或者是針對未來我們如果說台灣辦國際型的比賽專責的人員專責的科士來協助因為我覺得在這件事情上面場地沒有掌握好足協難辭其咎他連讓教練連讓球員去參與看場地都沒有"},{"start":15072.421,"end":15081.786,"text":"所以才會發生那麼離譜的事情如果說之前就有在開賣門票之前就先邀請場地球員跟教練來看說不定那個時候就動了那未來運動部或是現在體育署針對國際型賽事我們有沒有同仁可以協助或者是說針對這個部分來怎麼樣"},{"start":15094.754,"end":15108.438,"text":"避免這樣的狀況是 我們分兩個層面一個是檢核表當然是我們的未來的國際事務司以及行政法人運動產業發展中心的消費輔導處都會來專責做這件事情那委員的意見我們也收到了我們會針對這部分來加強輔導他們"},{"start":15111.012,"end":15134.811,"text":"在場地的部分我們當然也希望能夠增加更多的A級的場館那我們在努力當中當然但是我必須請容本席再提醒一下男子足球場當時我們教育部體育署補助計畫補助經費的時候其實就是朝可以國際賽事使用後來是開工之後變更設計才沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":15136.411,"end":15154.3,"text":"那不管怎麼樣本席現在看要求的真的還是在這件事情上面我們大家都痛心未來除了剛剛部長署長承諾不能發聲以外我們要怎麼做讓它真的不能發聲我覺得這才是本席今天提出來的目的以上 謝謝"},{"start":15156.607,"end":15166.51,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟愷委員 不好意思歡迎回娘家接下來我們請徐富奎委員謝謝主席 有請我們鄭部長跟鄭署長 謝謝好 有請鄭部長 鄭署長委員好"},{"start":15184.211,"end":15210.848,"text":"部長好 署長好那我想剛剛很多委員都在關心這個國際賽事那當然這個部分我們還是希望教育部跟體育署要加油啦畢竟這個是我們這個國際外交很重要的一個環節那不過這個本席在這個今天的質詢的重點還是放在我們這個校園的一個安心學習讓小朋友有一個放心奔跑的一個校園環境的這個議題上面那部長"},{"start":15211.348,"end":15221.382,"text":"我想請您再看看我們左手邊這張照片去年十月的時候我在教育委員會我諮詢過這個是我們東港一個東隆國小"},{"start":15224.891,"end":15240.786,"text":"部長你認為這個跑道適合學生放輕奔跑嗎我想這要立即改善,這沒有什麼任何討論的空間大概就是立即改善部長你去年有這樣給我答應,但是到目前為止這個案子還沒有核定我想那是我的疏漏,我們回去馬上來處理"},{"start":15242.928,"end":15258.866,"text":"我想部長這樣的一個運動場域,我想不只小朋友會受傷,甚至很多我們的長輩放學之後在學校運動的時候,可能這樣都白曬胸胃流下來我想這個值得我們去檢討一下我們馬上來改善,我們馬上來協調"},{"start":15259.727,"end":15275.494,"text":"那當然部長我知道今年因為我們這個在國民黨跟民眾黨這個總預算把我們打到迷迷茫茫可能我們在預算的一個處理上面是真的很這樣啦我想各部會都面臨很大的壓力但是我相信這個讓學生有一個"},{"start":15276.494,"end":15293.679,"text":"好的一個學習的場域這個尤其是我們很多的學校的一個運動場所我請保定當過我們國小的老師當過大學的校長應該不容許這種現象發生所以這部分還是請我們趕快來核定趕快來處理保定這個我都答應不"},{"start":15294.719,"end":15323.147,"text":"我們會後馬上來這個處理好那我想不只有東龍國小屏東縣還有很多學校都面臨這個狀況這請部長給屏東縣的這個教育的環境給予最大力的支持那另外除了跑道之外我想本期還是要提出我們屏東縣目前盤點出來急需整修的老舊廁所總共有112間需要的經費有4.2億這部分我想我在委員會也有多次提出質詢"},{"start":15324.167,"end":15332.386,"text":"那部長這部分是不是可以一樣給屏東縣政府最大力的一個支持因為我們的這個財政有限啦齁部長這是不是可以來倒上講一下"},{"start":15338.269,"end":15357.564,"text":"謝謝委員部長有爭取行政院專款81今年執行往後兩三年內會把它全部都改善完全部都會納進來嗎我們要全部盡量把它處理好我想這個也是我們學童上廁所很重要的一個環節SUNNY能不能完成"},{"start":15358.991,"end":15381.787,"text":"跟我們屏東縣政府一起努力我們現在行政院這邊已經先給我們專款八十億了好那麻煩在優先處理那另外部長我想這個我上次質詢也有質詢到這個充實行政人力這個計畫那因為過去我們在所謂的一個行政助理的部分是補助七班到二十班這個核定一個行政人力那也是減輕了我們這個"},{"start":15383.628,"end":15410.615,"text":"老師對於這個行政業務的一個負擔那但是我想我們現在有很多的偏鄉的學校其實都是落在六班七班以下有的甚至只有六班那一樣要負擔這樣一個行政的一個文書作業的能力那是不是可以針對這樣的一個行政能力的部分能夠放寬讓所有這個七班以下的學校能夠有能力能夠來聘請一個行政助理這部分部長是不是可以來幫忙"},{"start":15412.179,"end":15440.219,"text":"現在委員關心這個有比較小型的學校特別在這個偏鄉的這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來比較區域性的來看怎麼樣去給對 柏均我知道你那一層油漢如果說沒辦法一校一個那是不是可以周邊兩三個學校是 我的意思就是我們用一個比較區域性的來考量來巡迴的方式來做處理人力上的必須要的一些配置跟支持柏均這樣這一個裡面給我一個打破好不好"},{"start":15442.179,"end":15455.204,"text":"好那最後我想部長也很關心我們偏鄉的一個教育你也來變動幾個座部長我們今年有針對一個偏鄉的一個專班的設置那不曉得目前的進度為何請部長答覆"},{"start":15462.35,"end":15484.569,"text":"谢谢委员关心那我们师资司来报告那我们对于这个偏乡师资的这个缺乏部长也非常的关心那我们在这个学年度我们师培大学呢小教的部分会开设10个班达450人那么我们中教呢有6个领域9专长那也会来开设90人次的这个需求那我们会持续来滚动检讨"},{"start":15485.427,"end":15495.983,"text":"那這樣子的一個措施對於我們過去這個偏向的一個師資的不足甚至很多的代課老師一直課都課不到有沒有什麼正面的注意"},{"start":15496.559,"end":15517.74,"text":"是,我们这些人数都有跟国教署还有地方政府来做调查,那也是依据地方政府推荐,已经在偏乡服务一段时间,有一个门槛嘛,对,有一个服务年限,那相信对于稳定他们在偏乡的任教,还有未来帮助他们取得这个正式老师投入职场,奉献这个心力是很有帮助的。"},{"start":15518.852,"end":15534.942,"text":"我想這個穩定的這個教師的人力也是我們才是我們學生因為每個學生都會反應說怎麼每一個學期過了一個學年之後老師又換人了這個師生之間的感情也不會長久啦也不好對學生的學習也不利那部長這個政策會不會持續進行"},{"start":15536.394,"end":15551.073,"text":"跟我們報告確實我們也看到偏鄉在整個正式施肢所以我們希望既然有部分的老師他對偏鄉的教育他是願意奉獻的所以我們現在包含老師怎麼樣去取得合格教師整個那個過程"},{"start":15552.495,"end":15565.409,"text":"怎麼樣用線上學習或者利用寒暑假而不是讓他變成要進修是利用晚上既然他是偏鄉山上他不可能白正常的一個上班日下來嘛所以我們這邊我也責成這個我們師醫師要全面來"},{"start":15571.436,"end":15589.112,"text":"檢討我想結合這一個線上的學習包含寒暑假的這一些我想我們都在朝這方面來做許多的一些我剛好就是要問你這個問題因為像我們屏東有有偏鄉有園鄉有離島和村半島你要叫這個老師移到最高要怎麼去"},{"start":15590.313,"end":15612.205,"text":"這個我們確實已經在改善所以是不是可以請屏東大學他們都有師培的相關的專業能不能輔導到我們甚至小琉球一樣或恆春半島甚至園鄉去授課有沒有這樣一個機制可以做處理也跟委員報告像今年就說今年九月開始我們這個屏東大學就有特別為這個偏鄉等於說小學的師資裡面我們有專班"},{"start":15614.106,"end":15638.226,"text":"對,這個要長久來做啦,不是這樣棄板就沒有了我覺得這樣對我們偏鄉的老師相當的不公平我想事辦是因為我希望他走得快一點,因為我們已經看到問題所以不是要再去改法令,改到很多,我們事實上是反不及己對,也讓我們偏鄉的老師感受得到我們的想法跟委員所關心的是一致的對,柏林這個我們一起來努力啦希望能夠讓偏鄉的這個教育的環境變得更好啦,謝謝"},{"start":15640.865,"end":15643.729,"text":"謝謝許富奎委員 部長請回接下來請陳培宇委員謝謝主席 有請部長謝謝 部長請"},{"start":15661.653,"end":15676.623,"text":"委員好部長有一個事情其實也是跟足協有關那我幫部長整理了一些資訊因為確實有一些業務並不在部長您擔任部長之後很多是在之前那因為我時間有限我就簡單的說在去年2024年3月21號"},{"start":15678.644,"end":15703.115,"text":"我們提了一個提案那當時教育部也同意希望在兩週內通知所有被足協欠款的人那足協必須要整理欠款的明細可是從2024年3月21號目前為止到今天此時此刻已經超過一年了我們跟很多債權人問都還沒有交出來部長我說這是在您之前我認為足協真的有很多問題好再來下一個"},{"start":15704.737,"end":15730.635,"text":"當時我們還發現主寫轉播的費用呢超支了數百萬當時體育署給我們的說法呢說是因為多頻道上架所以沒有問題我們就接受了可是我們對於費用還是很有疑問所以我們去問了審計部審計部給我們的報告說體育署沒有核實審核經費的編列跟超支的合理性我依然覺得如果審計部都這樣說了我認為教育部要有更多的態度接下來下一個這個就是在部長您上任我跟您說過"},{"start":15731.896,"end":15743.344,"text":"當時呢這日本的奧運選手他很有可能得金牌喔是很有可能得金牌的選手但是因為他未成年營酒被抓到所以這個選手被做出退隊的處分我當時就問部長說台灣的足協呢卻讓未成年營酒問題退隊的球員重返"},{"start":15748.867,"end":15775.725,"text":"國家隊當時部長你也認為這個做法是不妥的我非常謝謝部長你的態度但是我跟部長報告到了今年三月的足協會議記錄部長這個是公開每一個人都可以查得到的竟然讓當時也有喝酒的教練繼續在足協擔任U17國家隊總教練國家隊喔不中再來下一張剛剛很多委員都非常關心足協我也聽到部長你早上說欸你是說什麼丟臉這樣"},{"start":15777.782,"end":15796.913,"text":"這是一個網友整理的他都還不是專業人士他甚至也沒有看立法院的轉播也沒有看什麼新聞太多他光是用輿論他可以查得到就整理出這麼多從2023年10月24日一直到目前為止我認為單項協會各式各樣的監督光是在足協這件事情我剛講都是足協到底這個監督出了什麼問題我知道"},{"start":15798.214,"end":15822.262,"text":"署長真的很認真想要解決很多問題可是如果足協這麼多一直出狀況卻讓我們行政機關背鍋這件事情到底彼此的責任跟分工那我就不再問補助金額的問題所以部長這件事情我知道今年可能8月9月我們運動部就要掛牌了那但是在這之前我相信國人還是對所有體育業務有非常非常高度的期待部長你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":15823.462,"end":15848.113,"text":"我想我完全同意委員所剛才所提的全國國民都在關心也樂觀這個運動部的一個成立希望能夠讓全民能夠有更好的一些運動的一個場域跟人才培育但是怎麼樣讓看起來這個足球界我想會後我"},{"start":15849.153,"end":15865.911,"text":"我要拜託這個張廖次長跟這個鄭處長我看我們直接跟竹協一樣一樣來盤點到底問題出在哪裡哪些是體制上應該要來改善的哪些是屬於單向學會我想我們必須要認真地面對這個問題不然"},{"start":15868.462,"end":15893.849,"text":"國家的這個聲望 大家的努力這個臉真的是丟不起部長我們會記得今天這句話我們感謝你說出這句話你說你願意以部長的高度然後邀請次長 張亮次長還有署長跟主席我們坐下來因為部長您做的這個動作絕對不會只有宣示異議它會給未來的運動部一個很重要的底氣就是我們對於各個單項協會的監督也好 補助也好 支持也好"},{"start":15894.289,"end":15907.124,"text":"他都必須最後要服務選手服務台灣人的期待服務運動部他之所以成立的意義這件事情我認為所有的文官一定都會非常支持台灣人也會非常的支持要拜託部長我們辦公室也會積極來確認最後部長"},{"start":15909.326,"end":15937.017,"text":"我再一分鐘我們辦公室因為真的很關心運動所以我們自己非常積極的主持了辦了很多座談會一個是從兒少的運動政策一個是適應運動也就是對於特教生或者是身心障礙全年齡的身心障礙的適應運動在未來的運動部的狀態還有謝士元老師跟周思齊都一直很在意的運動文化我們自己甚至也辦了一場座談會也有非常多立法委員參與甚至還有運動外交還有運動文化的部分"},{"start":15937.677,"end":15957.321,"text":"部長這麼多都要在未來的運動部做但是我們現在不是很確定運動部的很多規劃我想我這邊就是用簡單的時間提醒外部的專家會議當然很重要但是外部的專家會議所形成的很多討論最後可以落實於政策但是這個政策如果最後又只是變成了標案委託案讓舊有的單位去執行舊有的這個運動系統去執行它會不會淪為新瓶裝舊酒"},{"start":15964.662,"end":15991.019,"text":"就是剛剛那個不管是單項協會的問題或者是各個行政人員對於這些新的政策的想像我再說一次運動外交運動文化這些事情我都認為會有非常多擔心那當然我後續也會再持續跟張亮次長討論因為我知道現在這個整合的業務在張亮次長跟署長您的身上只是這邊我還是要提出提醒那如果部長您在這邊因為有高教的經驗你可能有更多"},{"start":15992.36,"end":16017.97,"text":"經驗的回饋我認為也會對我們未來的運動部會有很大的幫助而且部長您今天很多的態度都非常正向積極我也希望我們的未來運動部也是這個狀態好嗎好 謝謝部長那後續關於那個剛剛主席的部分我們會再努力去來跟你們討論好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝陳培鈺委員署長 部長請回接下來請葉元芝委員"},{"start":16029.755,"end":16030.617,"text":"麻煩請部長跟體育署長謝謝好 也請部長跟署長"},{"start":16039.181,"end":16064.717,"text":"委員好部長好 還是想請教一下我們這次在這個男子球場發生的事情因為這個事情據說紐西蘭媒體也報得很大我覺得這是一個蠻嚴重的事件那我先請問一下我們這個男子球場它是有兩個球場嘛對不對有一個是人工草皮的一個天然草皮的嘛 對不對是那現在本來預定的比賽場地是在天然草皮還是在人工草皮"},{"start":16065.951,"end":16076.658,"text":"我原指的是當初設計還是指現在現在的話是天然草皮主球場紐西蘭要來比賽的天然草皮主球場是要在天然草皮嗎是 因為它有看台好 那"},{"start":16077.898,"end":16096.527,"text":"我先來看一下我先請教一個問題因為這個是高雄市政府蓋的球場是吧體育署補助那如果這個球場有蓋出問題導致有人受傷或者是衍生出後面賠償相關的問題的話是現在由高雄市政府負責還是由體育署來負責"},{"start":16097.352,"end":16116.012,"text":"包委員通常我們辦賽事的話我們都有運動傷害保險不是啦 那誰負責嘛那如果是這一次的比如說要負一些這個責任啊行政責任啊應該是高雄市政府還是體育署包委員這一次應該是足球協會的行政嚴重疏失那是足球協會發包蓋的嗎"},{"start":16118.356,"end":16139.932,"text":"不是,但是這個場地本身沒有草皮的養護養護的部分是足球協會在比賽前他應該要做加強那足球協會的主管機關是?體育署所以如果假設要追行政責任應該是體育署嗎?保護委員我們這專業的部分還是希望一再的去要求協會來做那現在就是要求不夠才產生這個狀況嘛"},{"start":16142.202,"end":16161.702,"text":"對啊那你現在還要推給所有協會那如果協會的主管機關就是你們啊保偶員這部分是專業的部分還是要仰賴協會來協會仰賴協會但是那你等於是放手讓協會隨便亂搞嗎沒有嘛你有監督之責嘛你有監督之責嘛所以相關行政責任當然在你身上我覺得這不要推了啦那我們現在來看一下"},{"start":16162.523,"end":16180.29,"text":"在去年113年11月的時候高雄市政府運動發展局有申請一個照明的增設計畫這個署長你知道嗎知道你看一下他當時寫一個照明的急迫信說因為天然草皮足球場沒有符合比賽標準照度"},{"start":16181.01,"end":16199.44,"text":"然後人工草皮的足球場僅預留管線急需完善設置照明以符合比賽及訓練等使用需求換句話說在去年11月他們提出這個計畫的時候他們表示不管是在天然草皮的球場或是人工草皮球場在照明的部分都是不夠"},{"start":16200.561,"end":16223.094,"text":"好 那我們來看一下他申請這個 因為你們也有核定嘛現在進度是怎麼樣咧我們看這個工程竣工原來預定的時間是在2025年的4月1號那開始 結束是5月31所以現在的照明是還沒有驗收的換句話說紐西蘭他原定是4月8號要在天然草皮的這個球場比賽"},{"start":16224.309,"end":16246.778,"text":"他的照度如果按照當時申請這個計畫的那個急迫性是說照度不足的那4月8號紐西蘭是在白天還是晚上比賽呢他是在晚上6點半開始比賽高雄的這個日照日落的時間呢是6點17分所以他已經進入到沒有日照的時間"},{"start":16248.231,"end":16276.327,"text":"所以他今天來比賽按照當初高雄市政府申請這個計畫他的照度是不足的那照度不足的情況之下這個也允許讓這個國際的比賽進行當然人家也會多少也會擔心啊我不知道說署長跟部長有掌握到這個狀況嗎報告委員這次主要的問題在草皮的養護我知道草皮我現在找另外的問題嗎他主要是針對轉播的方面不夠滿足轉播的部分所以需要加強照明"},{"start":16276.547,"end":16302.92,"text":"他寫 你看一下他寫急迫性對 所以他是因為轉播的部分他說未服比賽標準比賽標準照度他不是講說未服比賽轉播標準一般是轉播的原因他是比賽的一環那為什麼他急迫性沒有寫說因應轉播需求他寫的是未服比賽標準照度嘛所以我覺得組長大家現在要面對問題啦好不好 這個你再去查一下然後再來我想請教一下"},{"start":16304.782,"end":16331.375,"text":"呃 現在因為有 有購票嘛 這是有購票嘛對吧 有購票嘛是那 這個票價200到400我之前看新聞好像是講說會在 什麼時候會完成退票這部分已經 陸續已經開始了陸 陸續什麼沒有啊 之前有說 會完 王子已經貼出來了蛤啊 王子已經貼出來了所以大概什麼時間以內要完成因為你購票的求名的權益你也要維持啊是大概什麼 你會要求主協什麼時候會完成退票程序"},{"start":16331.857,"end":16347.882,"text":"包委員他已經開始在進行這件事情了對我知道嘛有在開始那你總是有騎乘嘛組長你回答問題不要這樣一塊來吵架的樣子好不好現在問你問題都是問在問消費者的權益你就回答就好了嘛我知道開始啦但是你什麼時候要完成嘛這已經開始啦好那繼續繼續"},{"start":16352.318,"end":16362.938,"text":"那請問一下署長 這個是高雄男子足球場的貼文嘛 對吧那它的委管 請問一下這個博文健康事業股份有限公司它的角色是什麼"},{"start":16363.442,"end":16386.145,"text":"他是高雄市政府在南子文中球場的OT廠商OT廠商那他很積極的招商不是招商啦就是很積極的行銷這個球場是OK的啦那我想問一下你看一下左邊這張照片這個是在天然草皮還是人工草皮這個是在天然草皮在天然草皮那右邊右邊所以右邊是同一個賽事嘛對吧"},{"start":16387.555,"end":16414.104,"text":"右邊我看不出來這台天然草坪那你看一下喔他說因應全國少年盃調整賽程4月6號將會有舉辦部分賽事對吧所以我們這個小朋友他們比賽的場地跟紐西蘭要來比賽場地是同一個通常包圍園通常小朋友的賽事有可能會在人工足球場沒有我剛剛問你說是天然還人工你說是天然這個照片應該不是現在的照片那你去了解一下好不好是"},{"start":16414.784,"end":16425.213,"text":"你去了解 因為你不確定嘛因為如果說紐西蘭球員都覺得天然草皮這個球場不OK的話但是讓我們的小朋友在上面比賽那會不會也會引起小朋友的受傷"},{"start":16426.783,"end":16452.349,"text":"懂我意思嗎?懂那你去了解,因為你現在不確定嘛如果說他這個也是在天然草皮上面比的話那就有受傷的風險嘛,對吧?你現在整個球場有說停止使用嗎?有要求他停止使用?他目前正在養護當中不過少年的這一塊塞斯通常在人工草皮那裡使用那你去確定一下,好不好?再來我們來看一下因為,下一頁因為這個其實有一個新聞他是這樣講的他說"},{"start":16454.709,"end":16483.235,"text":"壓垮這個事件的最後一個稻草就是紐西蘭為什麼最後宣布不比賽了是因為有紐西蘭的球員在人工草皮訓練受傷及早回國在人工草皮所以雖然說比賽球場是在天然草皮但他們會在人工草皮那邊練習那所以人工草皮這個球場可能也會造成問題那我現在就來請教一下我們這個球場應該是有申請FIFA的認證有吧"},{"start":16484.738,"end":16503.951,"text":"這個場地的人工草皮足球場有申請認證至於他們的練習場可能是在義大那邊在義大那邊他新聞寫的是說是在這個球場的人工草皮我再了解一下因為目前我沒有特別你都還沒有很了解這個事件的來龍去脈那我們來看一下這個FIFA的"},{"start":16504.861,"end":16527.13,"text":"我們一般來說FIBA有兩個認證的標準嘛一個是Quality一個是Quality Pro嘛Quality主要是針對業餘的那Pro的話當然就是要最高水準的職業水準嘛我們現在這個男子球場應該是Pro吧是應該是Pro吧那你看一下我就看一下那個FIBA的資料那裡面有一個很特別的一個公司"},{"start":16528.257,"end":16552.972,"text":"我不知道署長能不能回答啦如果沒有的話也請去了解一下他的provider叫做Co-Creation Grass Company這家公司你去了解我相信你也不知道啦應該不知道吧因為這家公司我查了一下他的背景呢他是一個中國公司然後這個公司是由江蘇的王氏兄弟所擁有所以我們"},{"start":16554.366,"end":16567.686,"text":"就是提供給FIFA認證的把高雄男子球場提供給FIFA警察認證的這家公司是一個中國公司這個書長你了解為什麼是這樣嗎"},{"start":16568.635,"end":16584.898,"text":"包委員當時在蓋的時候我並沒有在任內所以我其實對這件事情是不了解的對 但是你今天來你都沒有預期到大家會問你籌搶的問題 包委員您在乎的是它是品質的問題還是它是中國的錢不是不是 我剛剛前面在講品質問題嘛我現在只是說因為看到這個問"},{"start":16586.159,"end":16614.958,"text":"請你了解一下嘛會 我會去略略了解為什麼這個男子的球場他是由中國公司去申請認證還是怎麼樣就是他的角色是什麼他是來自於剛剛依照這個網頁的確他背後是中資對 那是為什麼這個部分我當時還不曉得你不了解嘛那還有一個問題是因為按照這個圖啊我們可以看到他的認證的期限快到了到2025年的4月30號就是這個月的月底"},{"start":16615.765,"end":16622.697,"text":"那你們現在還有要繼續申請嗎?包委員這部分我會再跟高雄市做了解不過我知道這個場地並沒有在用作國際賽事沒有?沒有"},{"start":16627.841,"end":16648.879,"text":"沒有,所以...包委員天然草皮不需要認證,人工草皮才需要認證而這個球場人工草皮是用在...我知道,所以你的意思是說有可能他就不申請嘛對不對這個部分我還要再...但是因為當時這個球場在申請預算補助的時候他們就有講說他們會以朝向申請FIFA的這個..."},{"start":16651.261,"end":16667.68,"text":"因為當時足球場是要用人工草皮但是後來在當時的足球協會的建議之下改成天然草皮因為國家級的賽事是以天然草皮所以天然草皮就不需要認證所以其實你看從一開始他申請他所列的指標到後來"},{"start":16668.741,"end":16688.25,"text":"變了很多次然後現在現在又出現說你現在不知道他要不要繼續申請的狀況嘛那當然我覺得為什麼他一開始他要去申請就是希望說這個比賽的場地可以比較高的規格嘛那剛剛我問的是說跟人工草皮有關的是球員有可能會在人工草皮練習嘛那有可能因為練習而受傷嘛所以"},{"start":16690.231,"end":16717.29,"text":"今天人工草皮雖然它不是國際比賽的場地但是你也是要去維護要符合一定的標準特別是像FIFA的認證比如說以人工草皮來講它有六大項三十九個細節包括足球回彈測試草纖維的高度密度等等它其實都有重視所以球場當然是有認證比較好我們絕對不會因為說算了我不要去認證反正它沒有要國際比賽我就不要認證"},{"start":16718.513,"end":16730.39,"text":"我覺得這樣的一個態度感覺得過且過所以是不是還是可以朝向去申請認證的角度去要求這個部分目前全責在高雄市政府我會來跟他們溝通"},{"start":16732.69,"end":16757.899,"text":"對呀當然啦我覺得署長你今天的答詢喔你都好像很怕大家在責罵你其實沒有大家只是想要把這個問題吧一些問題點出來希望球場好而已然後不希望說又發生類似的事件其實天然草皮是更高階的但是它的確需要好的草皮我現在在講人工草皮嘛你又扯到天然草皮當時為什麼沒有做人工草皮是因為他把主球場改成"},{"start":16758.739,"end":16779.398,"text":"你去改天然草皮我沒有意見啊你把天然棉弄更好我沒有意見嘛我現在講的是人工草皮嘛但是因為一般Quality Pro的要求主要是因為要過測試才會去做這樣一個因為第一個你當時你在申請經費的時候你們就是說要做那個Quality Pro的認證嘛當時就有嘛"},{"start":16780.626,"end":16804.283,"text":"那現在只是說希望你繼續維持而已嘛那天然你說要弄更好一點大家都希望啊這個我沒有意見啊啊人工我剛剛就提出來說有一個消息指出有球員可能是在人工草皮上面受傷所以計照回國啊這是壓垮他們最後取消賽事的最後一根稻草啊所以不管是人工天然我們都希望能夠最高規格啊這個我不知道部長你認同嗎"},{"start":16805.792,"end":16824.582,"text":"當然這個好的一個品質我覺得那個署長一直在打折扣而且當初這個計畫是足球六年計畫裡面一個完善硬體設施本來是申請2.38億後來核定3.5億其實這個就是當初要發展足球一個很重要的項目所以繼續維持有那麼難嗎為什麼好像"},{"start":16831.214,"end":16854.876,"text":"現在我們的答詢就是 沒有啦 我也沒有要做反正得過且過就好了啦 去人工比就好了啦追求好的一個品質 甚至能夠有好的一個比賽場地跟好的一個球隊 以及對選手的這個安全的維護我想那都是我們基本上的一個態度 也是責任我覺得應該要朝向"},{"start":16856.252,"end":16879.94,"text":"盡量把場地做到好吧好不好也不要再出現類似的狀況那剛剛署長跟你請教那些你沒有辦法回答的問題大概什麼時候可以盡快的提供給我我大概這個星期我就會趕快去了解那我們希望在一個月之內給你一個順便報告一個月我剛問的其實很簡單回答那我就問到之後就把細節提供給我們好沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝易元之委員部長署長請回"},{"start":16887.677,"end":16889.218,"text":"蘇清泉、楊瓊英、鄭振乾、黃國昌"},{"start":16908.324,"end":16927.472,"text":"請蔡易瑜蔡易瑜蔡易瑜我仍不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我仍不在張祺凱張祺凱張祺凱我仍不在林佩祥林佩祥林佩祥我仍不在吳思瑤吳思瑤吳思瑤我仍不在"},{"start":16928.956,"end":16939.266,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有委員蘇清泉、黃婕、林沛翔、林德福、顏寬恆委員提出書面質詢"},{"start":16943.912,"end":16965.064,"text":"關於今天會議作如下決議報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面資料及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆運動裁券發行條例相關修正草案令定期審查"},{"start":16966.385,"end":16976.631,"text":"本次會議議事錄授權主席確認後即上傳立法院全球資訊網公開報文會今天議程處理完畢現在散會 謝謝各位"},{"start":17003.507,"end":17004.514,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdceb425b188b3b60748a71339fff88aef015ddd900faaa498bed5bbab985b2c25535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:13:46 - 09:15:29","影片長度":"00:01:43","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 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- 09:08:08","影片長度":"00:01:19","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 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先介紹我們列席人員我們陳世凱部長我們的韓振華市長我們會計處張新一處長公共運輸及監理司林福山市長"},{"start":2279.98,"end":2307.727,"text":"觀光署周永輝署長民航局何淑萍局長陶基楊維福董事長港務公司李賢義董事長華航高興黃董事長移民署"},{"start":2311.148,"end":2329.275,"text":"嚴齊龍副大隊長組織總署李正道課長工程會徐偉俊專貿委員道場委員還有我們的洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2335.066,"end":2344.513,"text":"本次會議進行如何推動國際旅客來臺觀光及提升國際機場量能與服務品質及增幣國際線航班之作為之專題報告我們先請部長報告"},{"start":2371.269,"end":2391.237,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀至貴委員會就如何推動國際旅客來台觀光以及提升國際機場量能與服務品質及增幣國際航點航班之作為進行專案報告並聆聽各位委員指教深感榮幸"},{"start":2392.506,"end":2418.678,"text":"近年隨疫情後國境解封觀光市場逐步復甦112年國際旅客來台人數已經突破600萬人次113年達到了785萬人次呈現穩定成長的趨勢因應來台旅客市場的需求回暖本部將請觀光署持續透過主要市場強化品牌行銷"},{"start":2420.018,"end":2439.699,"text":"強化合作推廣主題郵程強化海外據點之服務量能等三大策略吸引國際旅客來台觀光同時也積極強化國際合作爭取簽證便利措施以及利用航線航點增加來吸引國際旅客來台"},{"start":2441.455,"end":2462.546,"text":"國際空運市場也因為疫後穩定的復甦我國各機場國際航線包含了兩岸航線以及轉機的客運量在113年已經達到了5356萬人次恢復到疫情之前也就是108年的接近90%目前國際航線每週的飛航航班有2800"},{"start":2468.145,"end":2488.602,"text":"48航班恢復至疫情之前的96%如果扣除掉兩岸的航線已經超過了疫情之前的水準為了強化國家的競爭力並且支持觀光與產業的發展本部請民航局、淘機公司持續透過提升國際機場量能提升國際機場服務品質"},{"start":2490.683,"end":2517.138,"text":"增幣國際航線、航點、航班等等的策略提供國人以及旅客更優質的航空運輸服務以下將請本部的觀光署州署長、民航局核局長分別就如何推動國際旅客來台觀光提升國際機場量能與服務品質及增幣國際線、航點、航班之作為向各位委員提出報告"},{"start":2518.038,"end":2527.26,"text":"另外有關於本部主管113年度附屬單位預算解凍項目提出報告共48案的部分"},{"start":2528.393,"end":2552.852,"text":"本部前已將相關的報告函報大院並說明上開各項預算均是配合本部業務推動在案其中桃園機場第三航站區旅客運輸系統工程採購招標過程一案接續將由桃機公司楊董事長向各位委員提出報告以及說明敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2560.109,"end":2583.063,"text":"請趙所長主席各位委員各位女士先生請接續部長在貴委員會的引言報告裡面針對如何推動國際旅客來臺觀光進行專題重點說明如下敬請各位委員視覺"},{"start":2585.046,"end":2597.176,"text":"回顧113年來臺旅客人數相較於112年成長21.13%那麼主要是在這個第一季那麼第一季的部分我們成長了184"},{"start":2600.1,"end":2624.347,"text":"百分之一百八十四那麼第二季跟第三季受到花零四零三花蓮地震及接續的風災等等因素影響那我們在第四季呢這個分別加大力道那麼並全面啟動各項的宣傳計畫推出各項的促銷活動此一加大稀客力道呢確實也有成效"},{"start":2626.158,"end":2630.461,"text":"今年在移民署已經先公布的114年1月來台旅客651,000人次較去年113年同期增加10.36%"},{"start":2641.448,"end":2653.759,"text":"那麼本署、光屋署呢依據移民署的資料來推估那麼在第一季那麼114年的第一季呢來台旅客那麼突破了210萬人次相較於113年統計成長3%"},{"start":2659.929,"end":2674.829,"text":"目前台灣的觀光市場持續擴展那麼針對第二季第三季第四季的影客來台觀光的政策策略方面有三大策略報告如下"},{"start":2676.175,"end":2698.268,"text":"第一主要市場必須要強化品牌行銷因此我們結合台灣觀光新品牌推動第一波第二波第三波三波的這些國際的這個全球影客那麼也持續台灣觀光形象代言人的推動"},{"start":2699.454,"end":2718.489,"text":"那麼也活用了HG動畫漫畫電子遊戲管道擴大行銷宣傳效果同時持續投放並運用大型廣告聚焦重點主題例如新秘境新景點新活動鏈結台灣旅遊產品"},{"start":2722.042,"end":2749.252,"text":"第二強化推廣主題旅遊之合作機制積極結合各部會資源持續與各機關強化合作推廣體育休閒醫療生態高端主題遊程並與台灣港務公司與民航各單位全力推動郵輪與空海聯應的旅遊Flight Cruise並與經濟部的國貿組合作會展"},{"start":2750.492,"end":2770.308,"text":"旅遊獎助MICE那麼也包括了順道旅遊配合國際旅遊的趨勢我們在永續環保的議題全力推動也獲得了百大全球百大旅遊目的地的七項那麼我們也結合今年度的世界壯年運動會世界賞鳥博覽會世界露營大會在台舉辦展現臺灣舉辦大型賽會活動的能量"},{"start":2778.661,"end":2805.494,"text":"114年115年116年我們會持續三年以北回歸線北回之巔那麼在台灣為旅遊主軸那麼同時持續參與以及舉辦國際會議包括台日觀光高峰會台韓觀光交流會以及台越觀光會議那第三強化海外據點之能量這也是剛剛部長特別提示的重點我們除了海外的"},{"start":2806.494,"end":2819.727,"text":"多元市場的開拓仍然是以重點10國日本韓國新加坡馬來西亞泰國菲律賓越南以及雙印的印尼跟印度再加上澳洲那麼在"},{"start":2821.428,"end":2841.129,"text":"歐洲的部分我們全面佈局那麼除了英國跟德國之外我們在2024也就是113年法國巴黎成立了TTIC也就是我們的臺灣觀光的遊客服務中心那麼今年會在河南阿姆斯特丹明年會在義大利的羅馬來設置TTIC"},{"start":2843.436,"end":2865.837,"text":"此外 觀光署另外在推動國際旅客來台策略方面有兩大重點工作其一 積極推動爭取簽證便利措施其二 利用航線航點的增加積極迎客這個部分 剛剛部長也特別做說明那麼在新南向的簽證簡便措施方面"},{"start":2866.658,"end":2883.915,"text":"我們除了以獲行政院同意展延了菲律賓跟汶萊跟泰國的免簽到今年的7月31號之外那麼我們也結合了相關的官紅專案那麼行政院同意到今年的年底持續優化申請機制"},{"start":2885.456,"end":2904.392,"text":"那麼在持續爭取 增開航班航線的部分其實我們也積極跟民航單位做一些合作加強市場的重點影刻包括西雅圖 北美市場的西雅圖那麼現在的航班以及直飛的部分已經達了每週46班"},{"start":2906.855,"end":2927.57,"text":"還有也感謝民航局在3月5號上個月已經完成了台灣跟義大利的空運服務協定的簽署那麼擴增往返歐洲客運容量與航點等期望更密集綿密的航往提升北美及歐洲市場旅客來台的便利性"},{"start":2928.411,"end":2942.597,"text":"至於今日大家所關切的美國高關稅政策的措施衝擊國安署責務旁帶會持續高度關注觀察及因應以上報告敬請各位委員支持視教謝謝謝謝我們請民航局"},{"start":2961.986,"end":2980.113,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生陳蒙剛剛部長的引言報告以下警究提升國際機場量能服務品質增幣國際航線航班提出摘要報告那我國就樞紐機場跟區域機場包含桃園高雄台中松山四座機場那地方核心機場就是以飛航包機國際包機為主"},{"start":2981.673,"end":3000.93,"text":"那113年全年的話 國際跟國內線的運量大概是5356萬人次 已經恢復到疫情前的90%那在整個機場的量能提升呢 我們民航局跟淘機公司呢 那積極在推動相關的建設那淘機的部分已經積極在辦理第三航站區的建設跟第三跑道跟基礎"},{"start":3002.251,"end":3022.208,"text":"設施的施工工程的建設那高雄機場的部分針對國際航廈的擴改建已經規劃分兩期建設那目前正在辦理西部設計當中那台中的國際機場呢在今年中旬呢今年六月應該會完成的新建華行道跟停機坪的工程那也目前在積極辦理2045年的整體規劃的招標作業"},{"start":3025.811,"end":3048.261,"text":"那屆時也會研議第三航廈的最適的建設方案那松山機場部分在課陣積極推動國際航廈的耐震補強的裝修跟設施工程那也推動跑滑道的道面維護那對於其他飛航國際包機的機場民航局也定期辦理相關設備的維護跟汰換更新那有關金門跟台東的跑道的整建還有包含航"},{"start":3048.801,"end":3062.908,"text":"嘉義航廈的一個改建工程那推動整個國際機場的服務品質部分呢那桃園國際機場的部分因應客運量的攀升持續滾動評估第一航廈跟第二航廈的營運占比平衡安排航廈間的運量那也會運用"},{"start":3064.489,"end":3078.791,"text":"預報分析資料作為開設報導櫃台跟分配人力的參考來優化整個報導櫃台的使用效率那也會分析整個航班的預報人數然後透過資訊平台請各單位預作人力的安排"},{"start":3079.312,"end":3105.144,"text":"然後來優化人力動線的管制也會逐步來推動各項軟液體的改善措施那針對高雄台中松山等飛航及飛航國際包機的機場呢各機場我們會依據民航局會依據旅客成長的規模需求導入各項先進的設備然後便捷報到通關那在今年六月以前呢有關松山台中都會完成第四代那高雄市已經在三月就完成第四代的通關系統"},{"start":3106.084,"end":3126.289,"text":"那有關整個機場的航廈的一個多元服務呢我們也各機場也積極調整相關空間那高雄目前已經調整空間在辦理招送中來引進多元的商業服務那相關機場也會致力打造通話跟友善搭機服務那台中機場也增加航廈的座位後"},{"start":3128.209,"end":3152.916,"text":"後機使用的座椅以及包含這個旅遊服務櫃台提供預約機場到市區的一個專用接駁的服務來優化公共的服務設施那在相關機場的未來對於整個機場我們也會朝智慧化機場的方式來推動那高雄的新航廈建設未來將以取得智慧建築標章的黃基級認證那台中跟松山在設施維護跟巡檢方面已經推動了智慧化的相關部分"},{"start":3154.212,"end":3176.786,"text":"那針對整個國際航線航班的部分呢那今年2月3月我們已經分別跟芬蘭跟義大利來簽署通航協定那目前整個包含了57個已經完成了57個已經合計有285條的航線那後續我們也會來積極推動相關的航權推動然後來擴展以利航空公司新增航班的一個營運空間"},{"start":3178.027,"end":3202.566,"text":"那有關整個國際航班的部分來講的話成長的情形已經恢復到疫情的96%那目前以東北亞跟東南亞美加歐洲中東大概成長幅度從7%到79%那紐澳港澳兩岸在恢復中那整體的今年的一二月的運量叫108年同期大概恢復到99%那淘機的部分呢今年夏季"},{"start":3203.206,"end":3218.743,"text":"班表的部分會新增4個航點分別是大分彌子還有神戶跟薄荷島還有9月會新增阿布達比的航點那12月大概也是恢復到同期的99%那高雄機場呢目前下季班表是飛航33個航點那國際26個航點已經較疫情前增加了5個航點"},{"start":3222.987,"end":3244.397,"text":"那整個航班每週是365班已經幾乎達到疫情前的368班那整個夏季班表會新增三個航點就是重慶、芽莊跟濟州那虎航的部分我們也會以開闢先台航線然後為目標那整個一二月的較同期來講為87萬人次較疫情前大概恢復到94%那台中機場飛航11個航點國際航線是10個航點較疫情前增加4個航點"},{"start":3251.741,"end":3266.657,"text":"每週大概飛航104班已經恢復到疫情前的94%那預計在4月也會新增這個新宇的神戶航線那虎航也會持續來恢復名古屋航線還有新闢濟州那越竹也會在6月開闢亞莊航線那屆時台中機場應該可以達到14個航點"},{"start":3270.481,"end":3286.501,"text":"那今年的一二月叫疫情前呢今年的一二月已經客運量26萬人次已經達到超過疫情前的23萬人次成長17%那松山機場是飛航的日本與田津埔兩岸等九個航點那目前叫疫情前恢復91"},{"start":3288.162,"end":3309,"text":"那地方的核心機場就是花蓮從去年年底已經飛香港第七航班每週四班到目前那金統計還有其他機場的1到9月目前規劃會飛航40個國際包機那今年3月底會執行8架次那民航局會積極來拓展航權跟協助航空公司來整合相關機場跟競爭優勢持續評估開闢航線的可能"},{"start":3312.142,"end":3339.526,"text":"那相關議題設施也會會同淘氣公司來持續優化通關的流程後期空間提供多元友善的搭機環境那以上敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在其他的就書面報告就好我們先確認義思路請問各位委員對義思路有沒有意見"},{"start":3341.369,"end":3361.942,"text":"沒有意見那我們依事錄確定那現在處理報告四項兩個解凍案先予以說明原列46案中的第12案及第18案因上與附議期間不予處理本項亦成就處理其餘44案請議事人員宣讀其餘44案的解凍書面報告"},{"start":3368.024,"end":3383.662,"text":"個案排序順宜宣讀完畢後依113年度中央政府總預算案決議書面報告已送達均予以備查提報院會議事人員宣讀"},{"start":3391.695,"end":3412.058,"text":"報告四項二處理一百一三年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案G44案一至四為交通部函檢送中華郵政部份有限公司一決議第一項預算凍結十分之一案二決議第二項預算凍結一千萬元案三"},{"start":3412.718,"end":3441.844,"text":"決議第三項預算凍結十分之一案四決議第四項預算凍結一億元案五至八為交通部含送國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司五決議第一項預算凍結一億元案六決議第二項預算凍結十分之一案七決議第三項預算凍結十分之一案八決議第四項預算凍結十分之一案九至十為交通部含減送"},{"start":3442.369,"end":3447.914,"text":"台灣港務股份有限公司9.決議第一項預算凍結十分之一案10.決議第二項預算凍結兩千萬元案11.決議第三項預算凍結十分之一案"},{"start":3459.264,"end":3485.286,"text":"十二至十六為交通部函減送桃園國際機場股份有限公司十二決議第一項預算凍結兩千五百萬元案十三決議第二項預算凍結十分之一案十四新增決議第一項預算凍結二十分之一案十五新增決議第二項預算凍結五十萬元案十六新增決議第三項預算凍結兩千萬元案"},{"start":3488.088,"end":3500.337,"text":"17至22為交通部函減送民航事業作業基金17決議第一項預算凍結兩千萬元案18決議第二項預算凍結五十萬元案19決議第三項預算凍結十分之一案20決議第四項預算凍結五十萬元案21"},{"start":3510.364,"end":3522.005,"text":"決議第五項預算凍結五千萬元案二十二決議第六項預算凍結十分之一案二三至二十九違交通不函減送國道公路建設管理基金"},{"start":3523.626,"end":3531.392,"text":"23 決議第12項 預算凍結十分之一案24 決議第13項 預算凍結十分之一案25 決議第14項 預算凍結十分之一案26 新增決議第3項 預算凍結二十分之三案27 新增決議第4項 預算凍結二十分之一案28 新增決議第5項 預算凍結二十分之一案"},{"start":3552.128,"end":3573.944,"text":"二十九新增決議第六項預算凍結二十分之一案三十至三十二為交通部函減送鐵道發展基金三十決議第二十七項預算凍結三百萬元案三十一決議第二十八項預算凍結一百萬元案三十二新增決議第十四項預算凍結三百萬元案"},{"start":3576.886,"end":3584.148,"text":"33至40為交通固含減送觀光發展基金33決議第36項預算凍結500萬元案34決議第37項預算凍結500萬元案35決議第38項預算凍結500萬元案"},{"start":3595.111,"end":3599.334,"text":"36.決議第39項預算凍結200萬元案37.決議第40項預算凍結500萬元案38.決議第41項預算凍結500萬元案39.新增決議第19項預算凍結100萬元案40.新增決議第20項預算凍結300萬元案"},{"start":3617.185,"end":3638.835,"text":"四十一至四十四為交通部函減送航港建設基金四十一決議第一項預算凍結五千萬元案四十二決議第二項預算凍結兩千萬元案四十三決議第三項預算凍結十分之一案四十四決議第四項預算凍結十分之一案宣讀完畢"},{"start":3647.175,"end":3661.496,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點半截止"},{"start":3662.608,"end":3676.794,"text":"各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點半休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位洪孟愷委員發言"},{"start":3688.237,"end":3695.153,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳世凱部長那另外相關的同仁如果有問到業務也請直接上來好 先請部長"},{"start":3701.377,"end":3718.351,"text":"好 部長委員長今天洋洋灑灑非常多的一個業務喔但是我想一個一個來我今天總共分三個部分一個是機場的管理一個是國旅的狀況還有我們世界遊客的一個吸引首先第一我不知道"},{"start":3719.252,"end":3736.468,"text":"部長我們兩三個禮拜前也去參訪陶基然後也看了第三航廈的一個工程那我們也認為重大工程對於我們國家的發展絕對有正向的一個幫助那您知道2024年我們陶基的排名在全世界是第幾名"},{"start":3738.51,"end":3762.525,"text":"六十幾 六十六那確實差強人意 為什麼因為2023年是82有進步但是不夠好因為我們最好的時候曾經到13名那請教現在有沒有掌握今年有可能往前或是往後的排名我想今年的部分排名應該是會往前啦你知道什麼時候會公佈嗎"},{"start":3766.972,"end":3780.765,"text":"今天 朝偉排得非常好今天此時此刻馬德里4月9號當然有時差的問題可是在馬德里會公布今年的排名那我們想知道"},{"start":3783.615,"end":3804.23,"text":"來沒關係資料問清楚一點再回答想知道就是說那我們目前掌握的狀況因為以往都跟我們推說是因為疫情的關係所以說我們的排名往後落後但全世界都受到疫情的影響是 報告委員那現在也已經恢復了我們也期待是好的排名我們去年比前年好那今年的排名也會比去年好"},{"start":3805.071,"end":3832.958,"text":"但是詳細的這個數字我們要尊重這個主辦的單位由他們來公布這個部分我們不能講所以有信心會比去年再往前我們會比去年再更好我們都希望好還要更好那最好是要回復到我們最好的排名13名的時候甚至更超前可是我們現在看到桃園機場到第三航廈整個完成的時候佔多少的這個旅客運量"},{"start":3834.585,"end":3837.794,"text":"一年4500萬那去年我們的旅客營量有多少"},{"start":3843.41,"end":3865.208,"text":"4400多萬是所以換言之其實我們並沒有超前部署因為到目前你看啊現在的狀況一行下二行下加起來是3000多萬人口可是因為我們現在是爆量所以說到2027年年底才開始使用的這個第三行下即便是它完成那那個時候也跟我們現在的一個運量差不多"},{"start":3866.004,"end":3893.747,"text":"那我們有什麼樣的辦法更加提升我們整體的服務一方面我們現在既有的行下它的效率的提升其實我們整體的這個運量可以再提升一些那另外就是我們在九月份或者是在今年年底之前我們的這個北郎廳也就是第三行下的北郎廳如果啟用的話其實它的整體的運量也可以再提升一些是啦 部長我剛剛已經跟你請教嘛你說當今天是你們的資料給我的資料嘛第三行下整個啟用之後"},{"start":3894.708,"end":3916.441,"text":"上限是四千五百萬嘛是不是光是三行下OK光三行下就可以四千五百萬所以說整體的提升可以有更高是不是整體來說的話如果T1加T2加T3的話加起來是八千多萬所以預計沒有到八千多萬啦但預計就是會有更高的一個提升是必然好來"},{"start":3917.722,"end":3932.284,"text":"那再來我想請教一下在國旅的一個部分其實連鎖反應也是我們現在有看到就是說整體的一個成本因為從去年年底開始就有跟環境部這邊有做一次性的備品是不能使用的"},{"start":3932.765,"end":3957.442,"text":"是 對不對好 可是馬上就有民眾反應就說到目前為止我們明明已經講說不是說一次性備品不給使用而是說不應該主動的提供是 不主動提供對 可是可以用購買或是說用可以購買或者詢問的方式來 我們來看一下部長有沒有看到1月時候的新聞這個新政策上路之後其實很多的"},{"start":3958.581,"end":3973.783,"text":"不管是我們的這些觀光客我們的一個相關人員就開始要講啊就說我只需要牙膏牙刷但是他告訴我們這一些有一些旅館告訴我們就是說他全套是要用販賣的那反而會造成更不環保的狀況來再看下一頁"},{"start":3975.114,"end":3999.133,"text":"你說要花一百塊去買備品我想備品一百塊但是裡面會去全套所以反而他有一些東西他不需要反而沒有用到更不環保那甚至他做出來的結論就是說其實這根本就是省成本嘛變成變相的漲價飯店業者沒有準備這樣的一個物品然後變相的漲價給這個住客來去做一個使用再來"},{"start":4000.814,"end":4015.02,"text":"不提供所以說甚至那個時候還傳出說沐浴乳也沒有提供後來證實是說要提供的是大容量的沐浴乳可是最後又有人講是說國旅反而是雪上加霜"},{"start":4016.257,"end":4038.735,"text":"部長現在政策上路業已經三個多月了有沒有注意到這樣的狀況以及現在到底我們的飯店業者他們提供備品的一個狀況是什麼報告委員您剛剛所提到的沒有錯我們這個是配合環境部的政策所以整體的這個飯店必須要來配合那這三個月我們除了輔導我們的業者讓我們的旅客能夠更方便的取用之外"},{"start":4039.235,"end":4059.409,"text":"那如果有遇到的所謂的您剛剛所提的那幾個亂象的部分我們也會盡量去輔導業者也跟業者去溝通怎麼樣讓民眾更便利的能夠取得到他需要的東西那另外就是說針對這個一百塊它是一整套的我想有可能是因為飯店業者他們如果還要再分批"},{"start":4060.59,"end":4077.585,"text":"來包裝的話對他們來講是可能人力上的成本會提高是人力上的成本所以他就是用整套的對他來說相對之方便他看起來他是整套他其實是散裝但是他看起來他是用整套來販售所以某種無形當中是一個變相的漲價部長環境部會推給說這個主管機關是我們觀光署"},{"start":4082.163,"end":4105.373,"text":"是我們交通部 交通部現在又推給環境部但是我們現在要看的是 最重點在於是說我們不希望因為國旅大家過去最常被人家詬病 國旅是什麼問題價格嘛 房價太高嘛那現在在這樣子的一個政策上路之後又變成影響到人家 大家會覺得是說好像無形變價又漲價"},{"start":4108.024,"end":4125.666,"text":"跟委員報告一下如果是個案的部分我們也很樂意大家告訴我們我們會個案來做處理那通案的部分其實我們也在這個邀請到目前為止我們掌握多少飯店他是如果說在櫃台或說他可以來提供只要有旅客有詢問是"},{"start":4126.947,"end":4154.656,"text":"現在大概六都的部分大概都比較就是說已經那有關於非六都的部分我們也持續在關心那麼我們也跟工協會也正式行為給工協會那這些部分我們同步來做那當然也是呼籲我們只是說他索取的話如果有那當然要免費提供但是他如果比較精美的比較自己額外的希望有一個部分他是可以收費那這個部分我們已經通案去要求了"},{"start":4156.348,"end":4171.502,"text":"主長這個部分是不是可以再給本席相關資料針對我們怎麼樣來跟旅館公會業者溝通那並且重點在於是不要讓消費者認為說我們的房價一直居高不下是來部長最後"},{"start":4172.483,"end":4190.911,"text":"我們今年的觀光人口人數預計目標如果要說目標的話我去年有說過去年沒達成的我們今年來達成那也就是說去年所定的目標是1000萬我們今年盡量朝1000萬的目標有機會嗎第一季我們的觀光人口數有多少我們第一季已經到210萬210萬"},{"start":4194.352,"end":4200.578,"text":"那如果說照這樣子的一個推估 比起去年成長了差不多3%左右是 我有看到你們的新聞稿但是第一季210萬我們剛剛報告的時候有講到美國關稅的問題全球性的一個衝擊有可能會造成"},{"start":4212.04,"end":4230.985,"text":"相對應的很多產業都受到連結我們自己觀光業其實也有也很有可能會受到連結跟波動對不對因為如果說整體的一個經濟下滑或者是通貨膨脹甚至有無薪假還失業率的一個部分的話其實觀光也會受到影響有沒有算過我們在這一次的一個關稅因應"},{"start":4232.913,"end":4251.85,"text":"報告委員我覺得這個部分關稅到現在大家都說影響非常大但是實際的影響到底有多少我相信各國到目前為止沒有一個數字所以它到底影響到什麼程度什麼層面我們現在只能觀察但你說現在要仔細計算出來說實在的台灣到底現在關稅是32%還是多少這個還沒有一個定數"},{"start":4255.473,"end":4281.596,"text":"還有就是我們相關的一些政策要去做調整嘛來但是部長我不希望是我們的自我感覺良好是因為我沒有看到另外的一個資訊喔來下一張針對國際上的一個統計其實就亞洲國家來講2024年觀光客願意來亞洲玩那並且他來去做一個旅遊的時候其實台灣是倒數"},{"start":4284.435,"end":4311.414,"text":"這確實這是很客觀的一個數字確實倒數那我們現在在看到你報告裡面也有提到我們也希望是說針對這一次的這個相關的一些活動這也是過去本席也一直提到就是說我們也要結合不要說只是單打獨鬥是相關的一個活動能夠來去亮點吸引更多的一個觀光客所以你這邊有提到說114年世界壯年運動會賞鳥波浪會露營大會等等在台灣舉辦"},{"start":4312.515,"end":4333.045,"text":"那世界壯年運動會雙北舉辦也在一個月就要上場了有沒有掌握這一次世界壯年運動會我們會有多少的一個觀光客的人數我請署長目前的話是新北市跟台北市的觀傳局跟觀旅局啊我們保持密切聯繫那他們也希望能夠多一些能夠提前來"},{"start":4334.365,"end":4354.233,"text":"來旅遊或者是延後回去我現在在問的是數字有沒有掌握能夠增加多少看部長這邊的微笑我想是說第一季的210萬可能對部長來講這個是一個最低的標準我們也希望逐步的提高第二季 第三季尤其是暑假的旺季還沒有到來但是一樣嘛"},{"start":4354.913,"end":4373.728,"text":"你現在既然會列出來是說我們有相關的一個活動那就代表是說本席也期待你們應該是要更積極的來去做宣傳宣導甚至利用這樣的一個機會為期兩個禮拜的時間全世界的運動員都來到台灣的時候可以有增加更多的亮點甚至引導他們不只是在雙北地區是"},{"start":4373.988,"end":4392.417,"text":"台中高雄台南花蓮台東也都可以去玩特別跟委員報告一下那現在掌握了多少我們針對這個壯年運動會的部分我們有跟新北市跟台北市有一個合作那他也有獎勵措施我們也有獎勵措施是那這個獎勵措施的部分不能重複特別跟委員報告一下所以預計"},{"start":4393.297,"end":4413.951,"text":"但是實際的申請數還不明確那現在掌握了有多少觀光客會過來或是說飯店現在在居住那兩個禮拜的時間入住率我們有保持聯繫啦但是因為新北市跟台北市還沒有具體的數字告訴我們我們會持續跟他保持聯繫署長 副長"},{"start":4417.006,"end":4441.122,"text":"我想這是你們的報告既然你們在提供給立法院講到說會以相關的主題宣傳並且來適逢相關的活動來去做推廣本席認同本席更希望看到說不是只是寫在紙上好看而是真真正正能夠利用機會借力使力搭順風車讓"},{"start":4443.423,"end":4456.438,"text":"效益能夠出來這是為什麼我現在在請教還剩一個月不到照理講如果說你們認為這是真的很重要或說真的很可以協助宣傳的你們應該現在已經可以掌握了這一點"},{"start":4459.321,"end":4477.575,"text":"我們宿外的16個處都有在幫忙行銷好 署長你剛剛講說你是不是可以再整理相關資料提供給本席那並且也提供給本席相關你們的成效預計推廣會因為這樣子有帶來什麼樣的一個效力可以嗎是好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":4495.063,"end":4499.667,"text":"我們現在請李坤哲委員好 謝謝召委 請一下陳士凱部長 觀光署周署長請部長 署長"},{"start":4516.325,"end":4532.165,"text":"部長應該是去年九月就任到現在也應該半年多了那有關於觀光發展是交通部重要的責任跟重要的工作但是我們來看整體的觀光的發展在這一年多來的一個狀況"},{"start":4533.226,"end":4550.647,"text":"我們現在國旅逐漸恢復到疫情之前的水準那這個表現是算勉強及格當然還有很多的議題包括這個交通的路線房價過高等等他的這種觀光的品質還是必須要去做改進"},{"start":4552.389,"end":4577.547,"text":"國際旅遊的部分我們的旅遊跟疫情之前來比較我認為表現我必須要很嚴肅的講表現是不及格的我們來看出國的旅客人次我們台灣的出國旅客人次如果2019跟2024來做比較現在出國的人數是越來越多也逐漸恢復到疫情之前"},{"start":4577.907,"end":4593.445,"text":"之前的這個水準恢復到98.52的這樣的一個水準而且必須要注意年輕人出國的比例越來越高越來越不想在台灣國內旅遊那另外來台的旅客人次更是讓我們擔憂"},{"start":4595.487,"end":4597.509,"text":"在2024年只有785萬2019年有1186萬的這樣的一個旅遊人士我們恢復的比例只有66.23"},{"start":4610.831,"end":4630.709,"text":"部長這樣是不行的是來你有什麼想法你來半年多了對觀光的議題我知道你有在進行了解來你有什麼想法報告委員其實來台旅客的人次這幾年雖然都在增加但是我們復甦的速度實在是比起其他國家有些慢好那這個部分我們應該要再加強"},{"start":4631.449,"end":4647.73,"text":"我覺得幾個點包含剛剛洪牧凱委員在質詢的內容就是說有一些國外的旅客要來亞洲的時候台灣不是首選甚至連前面幾名都排不到這個是我們要檢討的那也就是我們在國外的行銷剛剛委員有提到就是現在年輕人很喜歡出國"},{"start":4648.351,"end":4674.266,"text":"那他出國的時候他心裡面一定有一個圖像哪個地方好玩他想去代表台灣現在在其他各國的年輕人或旅客的心裡面的那個圖像不夠明顯所以第一個我們的行銷的問題必須要解決那行銷我們的費用有開始漸漸在增加也有漸漸看到成效不過行銷的方式我們可以再檢討行銷的方式會不會是沒有剛好打中人心這個部分我們要去思考那第二個就是說"},{"start":4675.367,"end":4690.837,"text":"包含剛剛所講的行銷我們在各國的服務據點在過去是不夠的那我們在這兩年其實也在各國的觀光服務據點也不斷在提升這個部分是很重要要處理第三其實更重要的是旅客來了台灣第一次之後會不會想第二次"},{"start":4691.477,"end":4717.698,"text":"如果要讓他來第二次那品質就很重要台灣要好玩到品質夠好那這個部分牽扯到人才我們的人才夠不夠觀光的人才所以我們觀光研訓院會在今年年底會來成立觀光的人才這個是打底的工作我們必須把它打好讓國外的旅客來到台灣之後第一次還會有第二次甚至會帶其他的旅客來部長剛才提到有關於國外的旅客對於台灣的觀光印象到底是什麼"},{"start":4718.539,"end":4744.237,"text":"我們有國際觀光宣傳的這個經費在觀光基金裡面有這種精準課員的開拓計畫今年應該編列了大概17億左右17億我們的觀光宣導有這麼多的經費但是我認為一直做得不好所有的觀光旅客 國際旅客以這個2024年觀光署自己的這個報告"},{"start":4746.657,"end":4770.72,"text":"國際旅客對台灣的公關印象是什麼就是101就是故宮就是像西門町信義商業區這些再加個淡水頂多再加上阿里山等等日月台他們的印象一直是這樣我們對於各地的宣導不足建立區域旅遊品牌的這種特色"},{"start":4772.042,"end":4791.991,"text":"火力不夠做的也不好宣導也不夠然後這十幾年來一直要求觀光署針對除了這些觀光客既有的印象之外你應該去加強其他地區的區域的這個特色這個必須要去做改進另外我們來看一下我們以日本的經驗來說現在"},{"start":4797.304,"end":4811.732,"text":"有很多人說我們希望特別的國家來支持台灣的旅遊就是說中國啦中國來我們的觀光業就能夠一飛沖天就能大幅的一個發展我們來看2024年各國國際旅客的統計日本3687萬人次"},{"start":4820.325,"end":4828.946,"text":"它超越2019已經是創下歷史新高我們才66%韓國有1637萬人次是2019年的94%我們66%2024年到日本的中國旅客比2019年還要少少了260萬但是他們東亞跟歐美的旅客是大幅增加國際旅客創下歷史新高"},{"start":4851.684,"end":4869.149,"text":"部長你要特別注意看2024年中國出國的人次統計它比2019年還要少874萬人次我們推動公共發展是要依靠良好的旅遊品質建立區域旅遊的特色台灣的特色"},{"start":4870.009,"end":4897.245,"text":"然後不是依靠特定的國家不然簡單說明一下報告委員確實我們這幾年也在轉型當中我們在疫情之前跟現在相比的話中國的旅客減少200多萬人次但我們台灣最近以去年來講比起前年我們日本客增加了百分之四十幾韓國客也增加了百分之三四十尤其是歐美客歐美客我們增加百分之二十幾我們現在正在拓展中國以外的重要的旅客的區域"},{"start":4898.546,"end":4917.601,"text":"那這個部分其實在去年有一些斬獲不過我們還可以再加強這個部分確實是要好好的努力要向日本學習要向日本學習部長我們來看看我們觀光面臨什麼困境第一個觀光的同質性高缺乏特色魅力缺乏區域的景點品牌我們看台灣的老街"},{"start":4918.652,"end":4942.171,"text":"特色都差不多賣的東西也差不多我們的駱魚松你種我也種大家都在種櫻花也是你種我也種還有像什麼觀景台觀景高台你做我也做你有清水公園我也來弄個清水公園他沒有形成地方的這種區域旅遊的特色啦另外旅遊品質不佳"},{"start":4944.175,"end":4970.298,"text":"疫情期間我們的轉型跟改善做得不夠這個在當初疫情剛發生的時候我就一再督促以日本香港新加坡韓國他們的具體的長期的中長期的改善計畫我們沒有落實我們沒有做好另外數位運用資訊及交通的整合不佳這也是個問題宣傳與特色無法結合缺乏核心的客群"},{"start":4972.179,"end":4996.898,"text":"部長這種同質性高然後區域的特色無法建立你們有什麼具體的做法跟想法這個部分當然在疫情的過程當中應該是我們打底的好時機確實過去有幾年的時間該做沒做這個我們虛心檢討那我們現在要把整整體的旅遊品質要建立起來包含我們跟各地的商圈也要溝通大家有沒有各自的觀光的特色"},{"start":4997.659,"end":4997.799,"text":"好 時間先暫停"},{"start":5028.442,"end":5029.062,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":5038.226,"end":5058.223,"text":"好希望大家都平安大家平安另外我們對於相關的觀光旅遊補助當然有效但不是長遠之計那我們應該以區域特色的這樣的一個建立來建立長期觀光發展的一個模式我們應該仿效日本的這種政策的白皮書"},{"start":5059.184,"end":5084.014,"text":"召集地方的歷史文化或具有產業特色的自治團體或者是組織來結合當地的民眾以及中小微型的商家共同的參與共同的參與來建立地方參與的發展模式以地方特色為基礎來規劃觀光文化品牌的這種產業的經營策略來建立具有地方特色的觀光品牌"},{"start":5085.162,"end":5093.885,"text":"二十多年前我去紐約的旅遊局參訪紐約的旅遊局啊他們市政府的旅遊局啊他們經費一半是"},{"start":5095.752,"end":5121.946,"text":"這個觀光產業界出的錢一半是政府出的錢然後他們共同推出適合的旅遊局的局長人選來推動他們的一個旅遊要有產業界的參與我一直提醒署長還有部長要跟觀光產業界多對話了解困境來以及提供相關的建議讓他們知道政府的努力那"},{"start":5123.407,"end":5150.162,"text":"國際的宣傳這個部分剛才我已經提過了希望你們去加強啊對於有效的這種你們的計畫都都寫的很清楚啊叫有效開拓客源的計畫但是看起來都無效啊花了17億18億然後國際旅客的印象還是固定就是西門町啦101啦龍山寺啦新的旅遊圖像應該要被建立啦"},{"start":5150.543,"end":5165.492,"text":"各地的這樣的一個中南部的花東的都要納入這樣的一個觀光旅遊特色另外我們國際旅客減少啊當然花蓮的這個地震也是有影響尤其是日本跟韓國的旅客啊"},{"start":5166.192,"end":5181.767,"text":"他們對於太魯閣修立的壯觀的景色是觀光的一大重點但是因為地震之後相關的這些日本、韓國的旅客來的意願就比較降低這也是我們國際觀光的一個問題那針對花蓮跟台東的旅遊"},{"start":5186.471,"end":5203.651,"text":"那太魯閣這樣的一個特色啊當然需要生態的休養生息這是要一段時間的啦要一段時間我認為啊應該針對花東的旅遊啊應該要建立他新的區域旅遊的一個品牌是"},{"start":5204.311,"end":5220.062,"text":"建立套裝新的套裝旅遊路線投注資源讓整體的台灣的觀光能夠整體串聯起來交通的問題啦這因為時間的關係那希望部長多加的督促我們對於觀光的"},{"start":5222.003,"end":5247.477,"text":"成績國旅真的是勉強及格對於國際旅遊的這樣一個人次的成長緩慢停滯我們真的是非常的不滿意這個部長跟署長要全力的督促這個要努力好 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們請何新淳委員"},{"start":5254.687,"end":5256.032,"text":"好 謝謝許昭偉 我們請陳部長請部長"},{"start":5265.356,"end":5291.792,"text":"委員好 部長好平安 大家平安剛剛地震大家都平安我現在也期許我們國內產業界要平安因為最近歷經了美國宣布高關稅的大地震超級大地震我們中部地區的產業是被震到已經頭昏腦脹不知道該怎麼辦所以我就必須要來請教一下部長因為你來自中部"},{"start":5293.414,"end":5310.289,"text":"我當然非常高興看到這個國際航空加大投資買新機啦要搶客源拼商機甚至這個預估未來的貨運甚至客運貨運都會增長但是我想請教部長有沒有跟我們國內包括華航今天也來到現場"},{"start":5312.705,"end":5330.432,"text":"我們這個美國的這個宣布高關稅這當然第一衝擊的是我們的傳統的製造業中小企業還有一些高科技業那我們對於這個整個商業好不好我們對於這整個這個貨運量的投資會不會有影響"},{"start":5332.113,"end":5346.997,"text":"我想對整體的經濟必然有影響那整體經濟會有影響那旅客的部分也一定會有影響貨運的部分因為今天的媒體有開始有在討論說這個美國高關稅對台灣這個國內的產業的衝擊那衝擊之後呢可能後續會影響到這個消費力那消費市場呢我們必須非常緊密的來注意那尤其呢旅遊市場是不管是國內國外的旅遊市場"},{"start":5361.021,"end":5379.188,"text":"是消費市場裡面非常重要的一環那也跟今天的專案的報告的一個主題息息相關所以我會從這個國籍航空來切入說第一個我們國籍航空預估受到美國高關稅的這樣子一個政策影響到國內的產業那影響到國內的產業之後又連帶的這個影響到這個經濟"},{"start":5384.65,"end":5404.181,"text":"那對於我們未來的預測這個我覺得要提醒要小心是導遊員這個部分我們會注意是第二個那旅遊的市場到底是會減緩或萎縮或者是會怎麼樣我也覺得這個第二個要特別小心因為這會牽涉到是我們的這個國內各項產業的一個生計"},{"start":5408.343,"end":5429.025,"text":"還有呃員工權益還有我們呢對於剛剛大家在談的我們如何在這個危機裡面去面對喔那所以現在我才講說那我們華航的子公司虎航跟華信那華航總公司跟新宇跟其他的國際航空都在買飛機那我們的虎航跟華信有沒有"},{"start":5430.147,"end":5444.474,"text":"報告委員目前我們華航當然也有購機的計畫我相信大家應該都知道包含空巴包含波音也都有那虎航的部分目前是有15架的飛機那目前在119年之前他會先汰換一批"},{"start":5445.254,"end":5463.919,"text":"會到114年的下半年會增加兩架會到17架的飛機但是到了118年之後因為我們有汰換的問題所以還是回復到15架那華信目前是有12架的ATR最近我們也正在汰換當中汰換過程結束之後大概會增加到13架的飛機"},{"start":5465.307,"end":5490.232,"text":"所以我希望是他能夠永續經營因為呢大家都會擔心啦擔心就是說我們現在這樣子的投資那未來的這個投報率或者是未來他增加的旅客的服務跟運量呢那是不是可以整體的帶動國內的我們國人觀光也好或者是商務旅遊等等這些的一些"},{"start":5492.512,"end":5517.037,"text":"那我接下來就要問說為什麼我會談這些這兩個都只是一個引言最重要的是我們到底有沒有去盤點跟分析我們對於這個美國高關稅對國內交通觀光的衝擊我剛剛提到了還有呢我們呢這些的採購的這個心機到底能不能納入我們賴總統所說的五大策略的其中第一項擴大對美採購的一個品項清單"},{"start":5519.902,"end":5547.885,"text":"報告委員其實我們對美像華航要買這個波音的飛機基本上就是增加對美採購那這個部分當然在數額上面其實也是蠻龐大的當然對於兩個國家之間的這個貿易的平衡絕對是有幫助的那這個計畫我們持續一直在做那剛剛委員有提到的對於交通跟觀光的衝擊目前還看不太出來不過以貨運來講的話我們大概到五月底之前的一些貨運量是有稍稍的往下降"},{"start":5548.665,"end":5574.917,"text":"因為有一些廠商已經開始有觀望的動作對於這個關稅有觀望的動作所以有一些退倉的動作但比例跟幅度並不大還不大目前看起來並不大啦到五月底還不大但是要密切觀察對要密切觀察因為後面的影響這個無法預測沒有人知道那有可能會很大那所以這個部分我們當然會密切來觀察那因為購機的計畫通常都是需要一兩年的時間在規劃我知道是陸續的這個交集嘛"},{"start":5575.137,"end":5593.657,"text":"所以其實我們不會曉得說現在會突然發生關稅的問題那我們還是照原定計畫在走還是照原定計畫在走所以高關稅政策對於我們購機的計畫第一個沒有多大影響但是有影響的是可能現在開始產業界的觀望的心態會造成我們的貨運"},{"start":5595.699,"end":5624.258,"text":"可能越微下降但是我還是提醒保持密切的觀察我覺得這個是非常需要小心引引尤其委員剛剛所提到的觀光旅遊的部分對觀光旅遊的衝擊因為觀光旅遊是特別敏感對於景氣這件事特別敏感尤其以去年來觀察的話包含匯率的影響也會影響到大家的旅遊的意願那關稅如果造成整體經濟的狀況有下滑或者是有什麼影響的話我相信旅遊業我們會密切來關注"},{"start":5625.058,"end":5647.811,"text":"是所以部長拜託密切觀察那我們該協助的要全力來協助那我為什麼這樣講除了我們要對旅遊這個要提升要協助之外對國際航空我們當然也大力支持那除了硬體的新機要買那還有人力的培育人才的培育那我知道我觀察到一個小點"},{"start":5649.812,"end":5672.802,"text":"台灣虎航他在招考空服員的時候現在你們宣布這個虎航的基地是在高雄部長你也知道我們都是台中來的所以一直對這個台中沒有沒有相關的這個我們國際航空雖然新宇有宣布但是他是只有數沒多少量的這個飛機在那裡那我們虎航呢"},{"start":5675.723,"end":5696.502,"text":"到底對台中機場的要不要納入他的重要的營運據點之一我一直很care我一直很care我當然也知道剛剛我們何局長在這個業務報告裡面有多說了一些對台中機場的一個營運的未來性當然我要特別感謝但是我覺得還不夠"},{"start":5697.523,"end":5712.43,"text":"我覺得還不夠光是呢這個培育人才的這個部分我還是希望不管是虎航還是華信對於我們台中這個區域的均衡跟人才的培育的均衡這一點也一定要納入考量部長拜託可以嗎"},{"start":5712.97,"end":5727.547,"text":"好 這個我們來努力 我看委員所提的這個簡報裡面華信航空招空服員錄取率不到1%啦那這個比例但是相當低那如果有機會的話 台中或許可以考慮一下因為你們的工作地點都是以高雄跟台北啊"},{"start":5728.447,"end":5748.681,"text":"對台中來講我們覺得我一直很care就是如果沒有心機沒有人才那我們對台中機場的營運相對的就是好像感覺被弱化那我一直強調說北中南東裡面中部這個第一個腹地大第二個產業聚落多第三個"},{"start":5749.381,"end":5769.46,"text":"它本來的這個整體的這個人口數是在成長的那以這樣子的一個大城市跟一個腹地大的一個中部區域來講我看不到我們航空業對我們台中的重視啦對 所以我們現在正在努力啦包含剛剛高董事長有提到說這個華信航空它的維修的"},{"start":5772.11,"end":5794.422,"text":"總廠是在台中維修的總廠在台中但我覺得不只是維修啦其他的如果可以移動的話我們盡量來讓台中有一些發展的機會一定要給台中機場一個發展的機會包括上市部長去考察你也提到說對台中機場的一個擴建計畫我們何局長也承諾要來調整調整完之後我們真正的要"},{"start":5795.242,"end":5816.014,"text":"好好的把這個擴建計畫能夠執行不要都永遠只在紙上談兵所以我希望能夠呢 盡速的來看到第一步開始那接著我為什麼要看到這個機場的問題是因為呢 如果第一步沒有做 第二步也沒做永遠都沒有第三步 那我們現在"},{"start":5817.455,"end":5828.25,"text":"旅客量在回溫但是呢我們的周邊的機場的一個公共設施或是連外的交通都不變沒有辦法改善的情況之下那就會變成是惡性循環"},{"start":5830.373,"end":5854.729,"text":"那我不希望是惡性尋往 我希望是正向的那如果是正向的 地方政府不想動 我們中央政府就要積極來動所以我也很感謝部長 上次考察完之後馬上有做了一個這個機場服務中心來解決對這個台中機場往市區的這個接駁跟旅遊服務但是我覺得不夠啊"},{"start":5856.164,"end":5881.741,"text":"我最後30秒我跟部長講你也是在地人你知道嗎我們雖然地方有26條的公車路線經過台中機場但是從台中機場要往市區的公車裡面第一個班次少第二個每一個都是站站停我舉了三個例子三條線我舉了這三條線的例子第一條線從機場到高鐵站要經過20站第二條線"},{"start":5887.185,"end":5908.281,"text":"機場到台中車站要32站第三條線呢從機場到台中車站要66站班次少站暫停沒有直達車雖然你會跟我說這個是地方政府的業務但是呢部長你提出了一個替代方案就是台灣好行的台中機場快捷線那現在進步進度咧"},{"start":5910.662,"end":5931.883,"text":"因為您一直在關心所以當然觀光署也會進來幫忙那我們的民航局也很努力台中航站在今年的2月5號有拜會了這個交通局台中市政府的交通局那我們也開始籌劃台灣好行的這個車子讓他可以快速能夠抵達旅客需要到的地方我們預計希望在8月份能夠上路來營運"},{"start":5933.305,"end":5948.857,"text":"可是目前 部長我不知道你這個資訊是從哪裡來的你們觀光署給我的書面資料裡面目前最新的協調進度是什麼是因為交通局面臨主改 尚無法確認實際的排程會議時間所以既然會議時間沒有辦法排程的話"},{"start":5954.241,"end":5977.48,"text":"那他的這個一一四年的台灣好行新路線呢就暫時擱置我們不會讓他擱置啦他們是因為委員改聘的作業那在五六月份會進行審議那我們會督促他們而且我們跟台中市政府目前有密切在合作我們希望八月份能夠讓他上線我希望就如同部長你講的八月份能夠上線啦"},{"start":5978.22,"end":6003.495,"text":"那班次的規劃還有收費的價格是比照一般的台灣好行的這樣的收費機制嗎因為我們觀光署有補助所以它的價格一定會比現在大家所搭乘的更便宜會更便宜喔會更便宜喔得水第一個八月上線第二個班次要固定穩定第三個收費會比我們預期的便宜最後一個要大力的宣傳"},{"start":6004.355,"end":6019.165,"text":"好不好我們希望能夠讓台中機場的營運可以越來越好好不好那其他如果台中市政府不做我們以後讓我來請中央幫忙我們一起來做好不好我們一起努力謝謝委員謝謝我們請黃建豪委員"},{"start":6038.376,"end":6040.3,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請交到沐臣部長請部長"},{"start":6049.437,"end":6069.319,"text":"來 部長一開始也在討論我們台中機場的問題如果是台中人要出國的話除了去台中機場之外我想目前很多人的選擇是到桃園搭乘飛機那他的路徑當然是出門搭高鐵然後從高鐵之後轉捷運然後才會到機場這是中部人的日常"},{"start":6070.6,"end":6075.707,"text":"那你可以看一下我們我放了一個空拍圖可以看到說其實我們一直為什麼在想台中機場我們從周邊環境來看"},{"start":6078.291,"end":6103.696,"text":"台北市的我們先扣除掉桃園這個機場因為它已經是台灣最大的國際機場了那我們看其他國際機場我們有幾個比較松山機場、小港機場跟台中機場的周邊環境為什麼要提這個空拍圖給你看你可以看到松山機場跟小港機場的周邊其實基本上因為早期開發比較早所以它的這個周邊的民房它的房子就基本上都蓋滿了所以沒有什麼腹地可能要再擴張可能會相對的比較辛苦一點是"},{"start":6106.556,"end":6123.207,"text":"那如果台中機場的話我想台中機場這邊你可以看到他周邊其實他的這個腹地相對來講還是蠻寬闊的那我之前在總之選的時候也跟部長提到說我們希望這個對台中的中部地區的照顧能夠多一點我為什麼提這個比如說我用這個圖給你舉例就是講說以金額來講的話小港機場的部分"},{"start":6128.444,"end":6154.34,"text":"我想你知道過去有南北雙空港大計畫為高雄機場投入了880億元改建計畫那台中機場目前正在執行台中機場多少10億不到10億的機場改善工程經費那有6.8億是做機場滑行道工程我想這個差異真的很大那如果說一直講說要增加觀光客要增加中部地區的交通流量等等"},{"start":6155.28,"end":6174.413,"text":"從金額面上來看的話其實我覺得台中相對比較委屈一點不知道怎麼看待這個議題報告委員您所提到的那個十一應該是跑道的改建的部分那針對整體的機場我們也希望會蓋第三航廈我們在2045年之前有一個第三航廈的規劃那我們應該今年的五六月就會開始招標開始規劃這件事情"},{"start":6174.893,"end":6187.745,"text":"所以未來台中機場有機會再擴建它成為真正的它一定要擴建那我們也有一個第三航廈的這個計畫希望未來能夠擴大整體的這個台中的這個機場的這個運量是今年開始規劃還是說這個計畫現在什麼進度我們的計畫現在正在招標中"},{"start":6193.37,"end":6221.137,"text":"綜合規劃正在照標當中好OK 那我就希望說這個東西能夠盡快那再來可以看到說我們從這個數字上來講我想幾個航空站列表來講的話航空站等級台灣機場當然特等嘛這沒有疑問那松山機場是甲等然後高雄小港機場是甲等然後台中的這個機場是乙等那你可以看其實從這個跑道長度跟跑道寬度跟空橋數量的比較當然空橋數量的確確實這個台中機場稍微相對少一點跟松山機場相比的話"},{"start":6222.017,"end":6238.829,"text":"那跑道長度的話你看我們台中信泉商機場的跑道長度是3659公尺那它的長度跟這個淘機相比其實相距不遠那在這個規劃上面你會覺得說其實台中機場以長度來講它反而也適合"},{"start":6239.429,"end":6266.976,"text":"停大型的客機比起可能比起松山或比起小港我們停航大型客機的這個機率它的航道更長嘛所以在這個航空站等級的時候因為之前宣布它台中升為國際獎之後它的這個等級並沒有提升但我不知道到底問題是卡在哪裡它的優勢有這樣跑到優勢為什麼沒有機會來提升它的這個航空站等級報告委員因為您也在台中也很清楚千全崗它原本是一個軍機場而且到目前為止"},{"start":6267.176,"end":6293.154,"text":"目前為止它還是很重要的一個軍機場所以它軍方的任務其實也還蠻繁重的所以在這個機場先天上有這個限制那另外針對跑道的部分雖然它的長度夠但它跑道的品質還沒有到達可以讓大量的這個大飛機來起降的部分所以這個品質的部分我們還要跟軍方來協調跟協商就整體的跑道長度是夠但品質還沒有到那個程度部長可以確認一下你說這個品質"},{"start":6295.115,"end":6316.71,"text":"長度是夠嘛 那個品質要跟軍方來做相關的這個確認但是我想問一下以航空站 以民航機場這一段的這個台中機場這個跑道的品質等等的維護是由我們交通部是軍方是軍方負責 不是交通部負責對 那是軍方的跑道所以我們還要拜託我們還要拜託他們把我們跑道弄好一點對對對那這有機會把它這個"},{"start":6317.867,"end":6346.477,"text":"我們會跟他們一起分擔經費大家一起來做啦但是那個機場大家一起來做到最後就沒有人做啦都是這樣子啦好不好但是那個機場報告委員到目前為止它還是很重要的軍機場是這個我清楚是整個中部地區很重要的一個軍機場所以它還是以軍用為主啦目前看起來是以軍用為主但是我現在講的是民航這一段啊今天基本上居民兩用嘛但是我們是用它的跑道啊那個跑道現在也沒有也沒有在飛有在飛戰鬥機嗎"},{"start":6347.737,"end":6372.628,"text":"有啊 有啊 戰鬥機一直在飛抱歉 這個我不清楚我一直以為單純是民用機場在飛他不是把那個跑道儀交給我們不是 是我們一起在合用所以大部分時間其實是在飛軍機那我們有航班的時候來使用給民航這樣那所以要提升如果要提升台中機場的跑道的這個品質不是我們交通部負責的業務我們跟他們一起啦我們會跟他們一起討論那並且我們會分擔經費"},{"start":6374.989,"end":6391.668,"text":"好部長謝謝部長這部分我這個我相對有點差異我一直以為這個民航民用機場的部分已經是歸交通部管了沒想到還要跟這個軍方來合作好那最後一點時間那這個屢次的問題因為就下一張屢次的問題因為不是再下一張"},{"start":6395.413,"end":6423.005,"text":"屢次的問題因為現在提到說台中機場剛剛前面何委員也提到說其實現在就是公車的接駁那我們當然期待說所謂的局限能夠盡快的來有進度因為這個是機場捷運的部分那到底現在局限的狀況怎麼樣可以跟我們說明一下局限的延伸的部分已經納入可行性評估裡面這個在這個去年對 台中市政府已經把它納入了那這個部分其實交通部的部分就是照進度在進行我們也會加快速度來審議"},{"start":6426.124,"end":6438.759,"text":"什麼時候有沒有什麼進度因為我們去年在送去年交通部審議的時候已經過了嘛那現在送行政院送行政院了嗎這個局限的部分資料有沒有"},{"start":6440.516,"end":6455.99,"text":"這個部分委員我再查清楚再跟您報告好沒關係因為時間有限了那我們期待說因為台中的這個人口數也真的非常足夠他是中部最重要的城市那機場如果解決完了假設有機會你先說今天提出是綜合規劃"},{"start":6456.59,"end":6475.396,"text":"那我想縱橫規劃裡面一定也包含了對外的交通的部分啦這應該是很重要的評估的重點所以我們當然期待說在縱橫規劃的這部分裡面也包含把機場捷運納入那機場捷運納入的前提當然是機場捷運要有進度嘛所以這部分我們再拜託交通部催促一下好不好好 那我先到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6487.073,"end":6506.71,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委員我們請林俊憲委員感謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長還有我們觀光署周署長"},{"start":6514.013,"end":6528.452,"text":"其實我們觀光署在推鐵道觀光其實我看起來有一點成效而且應該會越來越好因為這是一個新型態的旅遊"},{"start":6530.219,"end":6542.761,"text":"那台灣其實鐵道的歷史非常悠久那也有很多的鐵道迷那你現在玩這種鐵道我看有幾條路線開出來去年一年"},{"start":6544.039,"end":6568.818,"text":"因為目前大概我覺得應該有破20萬人因為山南號就最後一個花蓮案池上我沒有寫上人數是這個統計數字還沒有給我所以大概一年已經有超過20萬人今年應該會更好吧今年一定會更好而且我看公共組很像有一個案子在主推鐵道旅遊節今年會推鐵道旅遊節那可不可以拜託推一下台南"},{"start":6570.925,"end":6582.252,"text":"有啦 署長這裡鐵道啊這裡環島之星啊什麼明日號啦藍皮節優號 海豐號 福生號 三藍號沒有一條線有停台籃"},{"start":6585.579,"end":6611.916,"text":"針對這種觀光列車的部分大概台鐵他們有一個一套計畫那但是如果說觀光的部分的話我們會唐鐵跟那個鹽鐵啊我覺得那個部分應該很有鐵道迷的因為台南是台灣鐵道文化的歷史重鎮是 包括那個車站也是很重要台南火車站是台灣最古老的火車站嘛那台南的鐵路啊就台鐵在台南一共有14個車站"},{"start":6613.782,"end":6627.31,"text":"像後壁、新林、善化、永康、台南等等保安啦國定古蹟就是台南火車站台南車站市定古蹟就是剛那個保安車站那總經理嘛那歷史建築物就是後壁還有林奉迎車站"},{"start":6633.539,"end":6659.349,"text":"那另外再加上一些支線好像台棠的五分車路線新營到柳營的八翁線後壁歐丘那的新港東線那麼多的鐵道觀光資源台鐵為什麼把台南挑過去報告委員我們了解台南地區周邊地區很多這個相關的文化觀光旅遊的一個豐富的資產"},{"start":6660.169,"end":6671.756,"text":"所以我們明日號還有明日廚房跟我們的三藍海豐號每半年我們都會檢討行程都沒有檢討到台南什麼不停不要挑怪我的問題你知道我要問什麼嘛拜託一下輔導或者推廣推動一下保護員"},{"start":6683.183,"end":6698.853,"text":"我們結合六七八月觀光署有一個鐵道旅遊節那台鐵這邊其實已經有規劃了就是明日號在六月份會走台南明日號可以停台南只有一條明日號"},{"start":6701.855,"end":6730.238,"text":"後續我們還有山南海豐我們都會動態來做一個檢討會把台南地區把它納入你說什麼號 山南號山南跟海豐讓台南豐富的鐵道歷史我相信這個我們好好來推廣這個絕對有吸引力好不好而且台南還有唐鐵我們還有唐鐵啊就我剛剛跟部長分享所以整體的鐵道旅遊節也會結合唐鐵的部分"},{"start":6730.618,"end":6758.701,"text":"湯田那五文車喔 你如果拍照多看台灣現在很少了啦台東那個五文車喔就像新娘到女娘的八王線啦另外歐城啦 後面歐城啦新港東線就非常有趣啦 好不好是不是請大家來結合一下打造我們台南的古都觀光列車裡面那個鐵道把它拉進來另外啊不是只有陸地的鐵道啦"},{"start":6759.619,"end":6784.347,"text":"海上也一樣我們看一下我們台南的現在郵輪我已經在這邊喊話很多次了現在大概郵輪去年停靠台南的是零今年好像預估也是零那你國際郵輪不來就算了現在連國內的航線台南也是零為什麼會這樣"},{"start":6787.357,"end":6807.333,"text":"在今年啦 今年有一個觀光會議這個不錯啦至少我們好像觀光署有召開一個全國的觀光會議嘛讓各縣市政府把他們的觀光的需求提出來這個我要肯定周署長我們去辦這樣的一個全國觀光大會上 台南市政府就特別提出國內的航線 是請觀光"},{"start":6810.616,"end":6830.893,"text":"交通部來幫忙再恢復台南馬宮航線台南到馬宮委員在說是台南到馬宮的部分這個是台南市政府在觀光會議上我們請航港局來協助這個部分大家來溝通一下那目前是布袋布袋走馬宮這條航線是有的那我們來思考一下台南的部分怎麼來增加因為"},{"start":6832.546,"end":6851.537,"text":"現在國際郵輪人數大概恢復到疫情前的85%了就是坐國際郵輪來台灣的旅客但國內航線的旅客數已經超越疫情之前了那台南都還零"},{"start":6852.097,"end":6877.014,"text":"保護員其實我剛剛聽署長在說很像台南市政府也願意幫忙出一些錢讓我們一起結合起來來爭取這個行業因為他們希望能夠五六七的配合那個花火節所以他們希望能夠加大力道來把台南跟馬宮這個航線把它串起來我覺得這個計畫還不錯重要就是一個定期航線嘛"},{"start":6877.734,"end":6879.936,"text":"另外港務公司去年也說過去國際郵輪展在推銷台灣的時候應該要把台南納進來"},{"start":6900.013,"end":6928.854,"text":"尤其那個國際的那個大展 像那個邁阿密的遊輪展要積極去招商啦那你是有跟台南...各位報告邁阿密現在在 正在那個邁阿密遊輪展我們有派人去全球的遊輪展正在邁阿密那去 往年的話就是我們找那個民政世界啦有跟台南市政府談就是我們也推銷就是美食還有就是一些它的古蹟啦"},{"start":6929.614,"end":6947.91,"text":"但是他們評估以後就沒有下文但是我們還持續在努力那今年的話我們大概五六月那個我們總經理他會到日本去希望能夠因為日本對台南這邊也有一些親切感希望能夠拉一些那我們所有的場戰我們都準備好"},{"start":6948.735,"end":6976.29,"text":"好 這個基本上在這種行銷的推廣上那我們地方政府也需要中央的一個幫忙因為同時我們也看到說鄒書長前幾天有一個新聞就是公安署有統計到國內旅遊天數就國人啊國人在排國內旅遊的平均天數大概只有一點不到一天半那幾乎國內旅遊都是當天往返"},{"start":6977.51,"end":6997.882,"text":"所以後來就說我們是不是應該要推動讓國人旅遊可以有留宿至少要住一個晚上那如何來推動我看這個問題很久但是都沒有人去碰觸有的人不願意再過夜是因為覺得第一他國人旅遊排的大部分都是假日"},{"start":6999.824,"end":7018.318,"text":"當然在假日的時候在台灣國內旅遊偏偏假日的住宿那個金額都嚇死人比較貴 假日比較貴 平日其實蠻便宜的都很貴 很可怕的貴這些都是以倍數 甚至好幾倍這種不合理的一種狀態像這種狀況你不解決就會惡性循環"},{"start":7021.943,"end":7038.803,"text":"大家就國內旅遊就一天就趕快解決就當天去當天回來那這樣就失去了國內旅遊推動它最重要的嘛你當然你在那邊住一晚你一定是多消費這必然那為什麼這個問題講了那麼久都沒辦法解決呢"},{"start":7041.083,"end":7063.255,"text":"報告委員有沒有什麼方式台灣目前的交通的狀況尤其是高鐵大家很習慣搭之後很多人確實是習慣一日遊那一日遊已經佔了百分之七十幾的比例其實很高那我們觀光署也在努力希望大家能夠留宿那也就是我們未來辦的活動我們會希望盡量辦在晚上讓大家例如說我從台北到了台南"},{"start":7063.675,"end":7079.999,"text":"那因為要參加活動是晚上你就一定會留宿嘛或者是像一些演唱會經濟也是這個概念它是晚上的活動那你必然要在那個都市裡面留宿一晚那我們會來調整這個活動的時間過去都是早上比較多那未來我們希望夜間的這個活動要多一些"},{"start":7080.379,"end":7100.146,"text":"但是你那個臺灣住宿價格那麼高的問題這個確實也是個現象啊你不覺得嗎 署長是是是你不會覺得我們的價值是怎樣其實這個跟那個地價稅 房屋稅都有關係因為我們那個地方政府是不是啦 它是平日假日的價差啦對對 他們還是用平地價這跟什麼地價稅 你現在在說什麼啦"},{"start":7101.326,"end":7126.001,"text":"假日的部分是比較高對因為他有一個大概我們算起來大概百分之三十啦當然就旅館業者說因為我平常通常沒人客啊沒有客人我請責就是禮拜五禮拜六啊但是有時候你就是殺雞取卵啊你價格標那麼高根本沒有人去啊那你不能太不合理啦這實際上有沒有那個價格定價"},{"start":7128.083,"end":7141.878,"text":"確實有那個烘台價格的那個狀況還是要注意一下還是要補導業者對那個因為一般旅館他在掛牌上市那我再請教你有沒有因為價格太高到目前為止受處罰的案例"},{"start":7143.079,"end":7164.13,"text":"他們都沒有超過他的標價他們都是用標價來降低來販售平日打折的折數比較多平日就是照標價平東就有個案例平常800後來賣了7000多10倍那個直接取締了我就是跟你說像這種狀況你還是要有一定的狀況那直接取締而且我們重罰平東縣政府直接重罰15萬"},{"start":7165.519,"end":7193.289,"text":"如果國內旅遊都是一天一天玩法那國內觀光怎麼擠得來來送中去匆匆啊好不好謝謝部長謝謝蘇長謝謝等一下那個廖先祥委員講完休息十分鐘我們現在請魯明哲委員"},{"start":7205.272,"end":7225.627,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請陳部長 交通部陳部長陳部長還有機場公司的楊董事長是吧嗯 楊董事長好這個在問觀光發展之前先請教一下 因為我們看了一下"},{"start":7226.843,"end":7241.124,"text":"因為這個在從過年很多出國或者返國的很多好朋友都擠在機場這個進進出出delay非常久所以我們對於T3的一個進度我相信這個交通部跟行政院工程會"},{"start":7242.245,"end":7256.34,"text":"我相信行政院也注意到那可是我們在看這個已經發包的這個跟即將的整個T3的一個整個工程有13項13項我們跟你們要最新的一個進度我們發現大概中間目前有6項進度"},{"start":7258.214,"end":7287.147,"text":"是有落差的那各位看到已經發包的旅客空調系統比預計的進度慢了10.5%然後主體航廈基電工程慢了接近10%再來就是土電工程也慢了7.5%等等那我想直接先問一下董事長你們說明一下因為這個已經發包的這delay的主要的原因能不能把它趕得上預定的時程"},{"start":7287.948,"end":7288.09,"text":"請董事長"},{"start":7294.997,"end":7321.377,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心13件的工程有一件完成有一件正在重新招標所以剩下大概11件工程那目前落後的就是表列裡面所看到的那主要會落後的原因裡面我們現在比較擔心的是主體行下的土建工程跟機電工程部分因為那是T3的一個主要的一個設施所在目前落後主要原因有兩個第一個是缺工的問題依然還存在"},{"start":7322.057,"end":7349.273,"text":"目前正在積極的趕工當中主要的藏包商我們大概已經是好幾次跟他們做了一些比較實際上的一個盤點所以這些工作的進度目前還是以115年的年底完工為目標進度沒有改變那目前還有一個原因就是我們的修正計畫目前還在進行審議當中修正計畫通過以後會有一些調整那這些問題我們目前整體的趕工的一個目標都沒有改變還是希望如期在116年開始適應運"},{"start":7351.474,"end":7367.404,"text":"好 這個部長跟楊董事長我想這個很多相關的新的工程有一些是假設還沒有完工但不影響到你主體航廈的啟動但有一些你沒有完工譬如機電新聞沒有完成你就其他全部蓋好你也不見得可以上路"},{"start":7368.024,"end":7396.038,"text":"所以我覺得這樣的怎麼樣去協調各個工項工程能夠真的尤其重要的部分要加強趕工人力不夠的已經是幾年都是同樣的問題最後要問一下旅客PMS我覺得在交通部也好工程會還有機場公司在去年的12月19號終於決定了發函解約我個人認為是正確的我個人認為是做一個正確的階段"},{"start":7397.159,"end":7419.126,"text":"那現在整個重新招標那這個過程中那部長你知不知道目前解約解約有沒有解乾淨啊還是藕斷絲連啊要打官司嗎我所知道廠商是對於這個違約金的部分還有一些那現在違約金怎麼樣好楊董事長你上來報告一下違約金談得怎麼樣是這件解約以後我們已經默默收到他的這個理業保證金"},{"start":7420.686,"end":7447.551,"text":"另外就是到目前為止因為他的這個解約我們有一些損失大概有600多萬我們正式求償這兩個動作都已經執行尤其是李月寶徵簽的部分銀行已經把這一筆錢還到我們這個台電放到我們淘氣公司的帳戶裡面來那當然廠商他有他的看法所以按照採購法的程序目前他們提出了一些異議以後會按照行政的這些規定去做處理不過機場公司的立場還是一樣的"},{"start":7448.371,"end":7472.293,"text":"好我相信未來不管在工程會的一個調解或者未來搞不好會走向法院當然要面對了那我想PMS這個整個重新的系統沒看到我們的公開閱覽要重新招標期間已經過了嘛公開閱覽結束了預計在5月份下個月會公開招標因為等標期金額的部分需要一些時間公開招標那"},{"start":7473.594,"end":7495.307,"text":"6月份決標作業這是你們現在的一個規劃好那這個的部分你們我想請教一下就是正在跟你們打官司的那些解約的一個廠商會不會戴個面罩這個你要不要再過來後面又是他你知道嗎又是他這個機率大概多大這個老朋友又碰面了"},{"start":7496.587,"end":7517.538,"text":"我個人的想法是不會有這種機會因為到目前為止我們從新公開招標的這個說明會的過程參加的這些有興趣的廠商其實是蠻多的那到目前為止我們知道已經有兩家廠商在備標當中不包括解約的這家廠商未來審查的時候我們會特別的注意"},{"start":7518.271,"end":7539.793,"text":"好 我真的很期待不要那種惡性的輪迴換個名字原班人馬又出現了那當然我這個擔心 比較擔心當然你這一次的招標把車輛跟系統把它分開 平分當然就OK啦不要像之前混在一起到時候因為系統它根本跟不上來也沒辦法去做所以我看到你們這一次有去做一個精進"},{"start":7540.874,"end":7566.839,"text":"那不過你們在舊的標案舊的標案已經廢的那個部分你們整個完工的日期是NTP就開工通知之後加1048天我們看到你們的一個合約書也就是說開工日之後再加兩年大概10個月到11個月那你們現在如果你來看六月底"},{"start":7568.899,"end":7576.624,"text":"絕標大概簽約整個弄好回去7月8月能夠NTP就不簡單了那這個部分你們有沒有什麼趕工計畫"},{"start":7579.374,"end":7603.298,"text":"在上一個標案執行過程當中雖然我們這個案子一直delay但是我們知道這個技術一直在不斷的進進所以重新招標以後我們把儀控跟這個測量的製造的部分分別做評分主要的目的就是讓合作的廠商能夠看得出來他這兩個主要的組結構的部分都能夠有一些更好的做法所以你們新的合約新的合約預程還是1048嗎還是一樣的原來的一定時間"},{"start":7607.339,"end":7634.213,"text":"會到117年116年是一個失運轉的一個時間那我們有一個備案就是說如果他的儀控設備還不是那麼順暢的話能夠讓他以用手控的方式來操作不影響他的一個失運的新的標案我是為你加油希望你們整個評審委員真的把事情這個要做對不能delay最後這個署長我直接問部長都可以因為我覺得"},{"start":7635.768,"end":7654.96,"text":"看到你是不是你說的還是觀光部署觀光部署哪個官員說的在媒體報導訪問你們的時候因為就是去年的觀光逆差就出國的很多很多人然後來台灣旅遊的人很少所以逆差900萬人次看起來觀光部署非常高興因為展現我們經濟的實力這個署長是你說的"},{"start":7659.422,"end":7686.021,"text":"是這誰說的啊?因為這公視嘛報告委員這樣子啦我跟委員報告其實是這樣台灣從民國78年到現在已經36年的時間都是觀光人數的逆差那為什麼從78年開始會開始很多的人出國因為台灣的經濟開始起飛那我們也有看過那個數據的那個曲線蠻有趣的當台灣的經濟發展很好的時候出國人數就會很多"},{"start":7686.661,"end":7707.816,"text":"那台灣的景氣狀況不好的時候人數會稍微下降一些所以這部長這話是你說的是不是我說的只有剛剛我講的這一段你知道嗎 那個媒體訪問你的意思是什麼你知道他的意思是什麼就是要請希望怎麼樣去吸引的人來到我們台灣旅遊啦這個當然 不要逆差這麼多"},{"start":7708.737,"end":7730.54,"text":"那我希望能夠回答 未來回答具體 能夠一些比較具體的而不是說 哇 很開心那明年逆差更多的時候你再講 哇 你看我們現在是無慮的啦逆差絕對不會很開心啦只要有逆差一定不會很開心像現在美國川普因為逆差所以很不開心嘛那我們也不開心那這個部分我們當然要努力我們來台灣玩的旅客我們盡量要爭取"},{"start":7731.161,"end":7745.991,"text":"部長署長這樣好了因為時間到了因為這一次這個川普總統的一個關稅大戰才剛開始但我覺得在第三季的時候各個產業會有很具象的一個明顯的影響"},{"start":7746.832,"end":7765.629,"text":"那我覺得觀光產業也是一樣是不是世界各國都不出國了那台灣的出國是不是也比較省呢那台灣怎麼樣去露營啊有一些比較簡便的簡單的一些輕旅遊這個的部分我是覺得你們在第三季的時候要去考量有可能這樣的一個變化好不好"},{"start":7766.325,"end":7787.183,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒我們當然針對輕旅行的部分我們也會來做準備可以跟委員報告一下除了加強國旅之外可能這句話可能要再補充一下就是我們機票的部分是算對國內的產值還是有幫助可能他那個可能有點不完全表達我想補充一下好 謝謝"},{"start":7795.37,"end":7818.793,"text":"謝謝 我們請廖先生委員謝謝主席 那麻煩我們的陳部長我們周署長請部長 署長委員好"},{"start":7819.99,"end":7837.795,"text":"兩位好 這個我們今年的這個觀光來台的這個目標跟去年一樣嘛 定在一千萬嘛那去年沒有達標 今年第一季第一月的時候來台的人數有成長 確實有成長那但是碰上了這個經貿問題可能又會不太樂觀啦"},{"start":7839.09,"end":7858.325,"text":"那我想確認一下剛剛延續魯明哲委員的問題確實長期以來台灣的觀光逆差的數字都是非常的大今年1月來台灣的旅客確實是增加的但是增幅卻比我們出國旅遊的比例來的低是不是這樣"},{"start":7860.374,"end":7881.622,"text":"大概比例差多少 我覺得我們一月可能來台成長多少那這個出國的比例成長多少因為出國的部分移民署還沒有提供這個部分第一季他們還沒有提供那一月份對 我們一月份的部分大概我們出國的比例跟這個我們叫英鎊跟奧鎊的部分大概就有10%"},{"start":7883.343,"end":7906.877,"text":"差不多一樣是成長3%嗎還是多少就是出國跟來我們旅遊的成長大概差幾%成長率啦我們這個數字我們再確認一下你請幕僚先整理一下因為一部組只公布1月份的好不好你最後再回答我那長期以來我們可能都是著重於這個數字大家這個數字很直觀嘛但是其實長期以來"},{"start":7908.715,"end":7930.513,"text":"大家比較關注的最關注的會講到觀光的問題最重要的就是經濟問題嘛就是順差逆差的一個問題那去年我們的這個觀光逆差可能是一個數字但今年我們是預判這個觀光逆差會持續增加還是會變小我們期望是變小那你們有沒有目標"},{"start":7932.391,"end":7956.898,"text":"報告委員這個數字人數的部分其實我覺得去定義意義不大所以你會發現說從過去到現在大家都希望對人數會不是很在意很大的人數但是我一定不會做這樣的事最重要的是經濟嘛對不對對經濟第一一方面是其他的旅客來到各國的旅客來到台灣他的消費的額度我們設法讓他增加第二是希望把旅遊的品質做好讓他一來之後會再來"},{"start":7957.718,"end":7984.436,"text":"一來之後會再來這才是關鍵所以說我們去年的這個經濟觀光有個逆差的數字嘛那部長是希望說這個逆差的數字不要再增加了但是就一月來看這個還是不樂觀雖然說來台的增加但是出去有更多看起來不樂觀那您能不能一月份二月份這個是因為遇到台灣剛好是過年過年出國的旅客會特別多署長剛剛這要出來是不是對就是一月份的統計確實是10%"},{"start":7987.556,"end":8006.006,"text":"出去增加10%來台灣大概只有增加3%嘛所以說這個逆差看起來還是持續的會增加我們也是不能說只看好的啦因為我們過年的時候本來出國是比較多的那我想部長可不可以訂定一個目標就是我們今年的觀光的逆差"},{"start":8006.846,"end":8034.25,"text":"你能不能設定一個目標就是至少數字跟去年持平兩個目標盡量要達成第一個今年的國外來台的旅遊的客人一定要比去年的多要成長這是第一個要做的那第二個要做的我們希望逆差不要再擴大逆差不要再擴大這個部分我們也要努力好就這兩點那當然就是現在還年初那年底的時候我再一併來檢視這個數字好不好那另外"},{"start":8034.75,"end":8043.865,"text":"在去年的時候應該部長也上任啦如果大概提出一下我們觀光署統計的一個數字就是我們的有一個出入境的一個人口的金字塔的一個這個"},{"start":8046.547,"end":8073.468,"text":"這個圖像嘛就是說各個年齡層性別年齡層我們出國哪個年齡層多少來台灣哪個年齡層多少那我們有發現一個現象就是我們出去的旅遊的民眾的這個年紀大概30歲以上到50歲應該是這個經濟能力正好的情況的民眾出去的比例是最高的這裡合情合理經濟好剛剛部長講我們經濟好出國人就多了嘛"},{"start":8073.928,"end":8089.98,"text":"那但是我們來台灣的旅客卻沒有也呈現一樣的一個金字塔的一個結構反而是20到29歲來台灣的旅客比例相對起來是比較高的那相對起來20到29歲就是可能大家比較常說的可能"},{"start":8092.121,"end":8114.976,"text":"壯遊嘛用比較好聽的名詞就是可能不會花那麼多的錢來享受旅遊品質那當然就是對我們剛剛講的經濟的順差逆差可能又會進一步的去擴大那針對這一個部分我去年應該有請教過了那我們有沒有針對這一個部分來做一些檢討希望去做一些改善希望怎麼樣來吸引更多有經濟能力的觀光旅客"},{"start":8116.176,"end":8130.467,"text":"原本我們就歡迎 沒有說不歡迎但是怎麼樣吸引更多有經濟能力的旅客來台灣我們有沒有做哪些檢討或者是措施一些行銷是 報告委員這個部分其實觀光的內涵我們的內涵怎麼樣呢它是一個低高品質"},{"start":8131.147,"end":8156.527,"text":"那第二我們希望他多消費所以希望消費的額度可以稍微高一點這個部分我們要來努力那另外就是說針對整體的市場的擴大我們剛剛有提到就是說我們現在增加了很多國家的服務那個據點觀光服務據點為什麼我們要針對一些比較相對陌生的市場我們要去開拓那個地方的一些客源新的客源把市場做大我們的產值才會整體起來對啊那我剛剛講那個年齡結構就代表說我們的台灣的觀光的"},{"start":8161.539,"end":8169.575,"text":"這個行銷好像就特別只能夠吸引到某個年齡層20到29歲這個年齡層其他年齡層的部分我們有沒有怎樣能夠做加強"},{"start":8171.566,"end":8195.235,"text":"對我補充一下譬如說日本的市場裡面就是女性也是20歲到30歲他們希望看花火節也就是主題式的這種旅遊很強烈所以我們也不同的市場不同年齡層做區隔我們也會要針對不同的年齡層做廣泛的那勒林族的部分就是比較"},{"start":8196.135,"end":8215.396,"text":"我們叫漫遊所以我們現在就是按照不同的市場不同的主題還有一些是專門希望能夠部落旅遊的那這個部分我們就是用市場區隔的方式來做處理那我們的成效的部分我們現在還是多多益善"},{"start":8215.876,"end":8227.052,"text":"所以目前來講當然啦這個組長你可能有一些目標但這些可能都是比較宣示性的一些想法啦那怎麼樣落地落實能夠吸引到國外的來我們相信今年還有很"},{"start":8228.559,"end":8257.359,"text":"長年以來我們都有很多努力的一個目標啦我們也希望說署長我們剛剛講的部分就是針對來台旅客的一個經濟能力的部分我們也希望就誠如部長的他的想法一樣我們希望更多經濟能力好的民眾來台灣有品質高消費而不是只關注在這個人數我們希望說觀光署在今年相關的行銷後面也都能夠多加一把勁啦委員您這樣的提醒其實相當好所以未來我也希望觀光署能夠針對"},{"start":8258.44,"end":8286.094,"text":"消費能力強的那個年齡層我們特別去設計一些遊程或者是特別去設計一些商品來吸引他們來台灣是啊 那過去我們現在目前的這個來台觀光消費你們的行銷的重點區域大概在哪邊以國際上來講我們大概就是三個部分第一個部分就是日韓日韓第二部分呢就是重點的那個我們叫東南亞"},{"start":8288.981,"end":8313.422,"text":"對 所以我們叫藍向 新藍向然後第三個重點就是歐美好 那我想這個可能在這個三個面向啦其實因為因應川普的這個關稅衝擊嘛那勢必會影響到國際的一些旅客這個不能怪任何人不能怪到我們自己的身上但是我們應該要去尋找如果說東南亞在這一波的關稅貿易衝擊是很大的時候"},{"start":8314.431,"end":8343.584,"text":"那經濟受到衝擊出國的人士或者是經濟能力一定就會影響嘛我也希望說我們觀光署能夠針對這一波關稅貿易戰對每個國家不同的一個衝擊衝擊越小的他出國的意願一定是會維持原本的一個比例嘛那就希望說把關稅戰這個部分也納進去然後去調整我們後續觀光行銷的一個客群的目標好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":8351.607,"end":8352.227,"text":"現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8369.208,"end":8371.37,"text":"希望能够再交谈"},{"start":8398.931,"end":8399.592,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8427.073,"end":8444.747,"text":"那目前到底這次受到的影響到底效應這次的效果如何不過我們現在觀光局已經把這個變數列為一個主動調的範圍"},{"start":8445.647,"end":8461.881,"text":"那如果未來在流言也收到很重大的影響那針對藉著這個需要怎麼樣去協助大家我相信公安局現在也在做很公平的觀察之外也在做公安局的觀察"},{"start":8463.763,"end":8465.106,"text":"那我希望國旅行業"},{"start":8485.991,"end":8492.521,"text":"那還有一些商務的"},{"start":8495.084,"end":8518.181,"text":"包含在國內也看到消費階段也在大幅增長如果商務委不會下架的話會不會影響消費部門還要再觀察因為我還是回到我剛剛所說的商務委可能大家都還不知道關鍵站會造成什麼大問題我相信政府都還在考慮當中不過政府實在是針對方便經濟的問題那消防部針對我們打管的事政府敢問你怎麼看"},{"start":8539.824,"end":8541.727,"text":"未來在交集的時候再補款"},{"start":8547.312,"end":8568.319,"text":"臺灣電視臺灣"},{"start":8581.035,"end":8585.681,"text":"然後問一下 請問一下 她好像就是說 讓我自己打的很痛"},{"start":8587.622,"end":8587.642,"text":"對民眾獎勵"},{"start":8605.869,"end":8626.851,"text":"因為主要是一套 因為我有一套紫色的裝潢所以這就是我有的那第二個製作人就說這次的花燈的顏色還會有很明顯的效果然後讓他拆開來講一下他比開封開始 現在已經是一套很適合防彈的你如果加入他的會員 連他的長盾 連他台長的作品"},{"start":8636.985,"end":8643.49,"text":"現在還在進行研討"},{"start":8654.439,"end":8654.479,"text":"剪輯師傅"},{"start":8687.035,"end":8687.615,"text":"後期的戰略"},{"start":8715.587,"end":8715.607,"text":"開刀"},{"start":8727.227,"end":8752.978,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8758.602,"end":8774.774,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食材"},{"start":8786.098,"end":8790.901,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。"},{"start":8801.327,"end":8801.487,"text":"鲍鱼"},{"start":8812.757,"end":8814.638,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。"},{"start":8839.829,"end":8841.23,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":8873.553,"end":8887.926,"text":"你看,這張圖,它不明,它不明,它不明,它不明,它不明,它不明,它不明,它不明,它不明,"},{"start":8892.75,"end":8895.511,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的一間餐廳"},{"start":8911.161,"end":8917.984,"text":"這間餐廳有很多不同的餐廳,包括餐廳餐廳、餐廳餐廳、餐廳餐廳、餐廳餐廳。"},{"start":8931.252,"end":8933.414,"text":"這個叫漢堡 漢堡就是用刀剝皮剝皮"},{"start":8953.499,"end":8954.16,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8974.084,"end":8975.345,"text":"好,我們來看看這間餐廳"},{"start":9002.185,"end":9002.805,"text":"對,對,他有點張開張開的感覺對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對"},{"start":9018.282,"end":9018.562,"text":"鮮奶油"},{"start":9058.588,"end":9060.388,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李卓人"},{"start":9072.891,"end":9088.528,"text":"現在開始開會 我們請陳樹越委員謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長還有周署長請部長 署長"},{"start":9099.567,"end":9109.832,"text":"今天委員會的主題主要其中一個就是針對如何推動國際旅客來台觀光所以我們也先來看一下最近幾年有關國際旅客來台的人次"},{"start":9113.933,"end":9118.796,"text":"所呈現的這個狀況那當然在109年高達1300多萬那之後就是有這個疫情的關係那在疫情之後我們的這個觀光人次也有漸漸在回升那在今年我們看到就是觀光署也"},{"start":9135.546,"end":9145.065,"text":"自己定了一個目標就是說要達到一千萬人次那我想請問一下這個部分我們能達標嗎"},{"start":9146.758,"end":9175.598,"text":"今年能達標嗎 部長有信心嗎我們去年沒有做到的 今年想辦法做到我知道去年原本設定的目標是1200萬 那個更高那實際上後來觀光署把目標修成1000萬那我們去年也沒有達到1000萬所以我們今年努力來把它達標不過我們能夠做到的 一定要做到的就是說今年的國際觀光來台的旅客的人次一定要比去年更多我們一定要有成長"},{"start":9176.218,"end":9194.308,"text":"那成長的幅度我們希望能夠拉大,大到能夠到達1000萬聽部長的回答,就是可以看出來這個部長確實有掌握因為我要提醒,真的在去年年初,署長信誓旦旦的對外宣誓要達到1200萬的國際觀光人次"},{"start":9199.111,"end":9227.356,"text":"可是呢兩度下修嘛那最後的一個數字是786萬真的差距是甚大所以我們也是希望就是說這個數字不要隨便喊一喊就是我們當然要衡量之後才去設定這個目標然後設定目標之後要努力去達成所以我想這個就是要提醒我們交通部跟觀光署這個數字不是輕菜化花的我們一定要努力去落實"},{"start":9228.436,"end":9244.72,"text":"那我們看到說當然我們部長也有說要努力來達成這個目標可是因為我們也看到就是最近有發生了一個震撼彈就是這個川普美國總統他宣布了這個就是關稅的一個問題對整個國際的經濟市場都是一個很重重大的一個衝擊那這個部分對究竟對我們台灣的一個觀光業的一個"},{"start":9255.742,"end":9275.814,"text":"發展有沒有什麼樣的影響不曉得交通部有沒有及時的去做一個盤點那有沒有一個因應的一個措施報告委員其實這件事才剛發生幾天那這件事到底對於全球的整個經濟跟景氣跟經貿的影響到底有多大我相信各國都還在評估當中所以目前大家的數字都還沒出來"},{"start":9276.354,"end":9294.961,"text":"那包含關稅實際的數字也還沒出來所以交通部這邊跟觀光署這邊只能夠預作準備什麼樣子的預作準備就是我們密切的觀察因為目前為止觀光客才幾天的時間看不出來那個變化但我們會密切的觀察整個觀光的人士也好或者是說整個旅遊的狀況也好"},{"start":9296.121,"end":9313.419,"text":"或者是住房率也好我們會密切的觀察它的影響有多大那如果真的影響非常大的時候我們就來做因應的措施因應的措施包含我們再加強宣傳或者是說再加強活動那另外業者一定也會受到一些衝擊對業者的協助應該做什麼我們目前正在盤點當中"},{"start":9314.768,"end":9335.106,"text":"對 是我們就是說要先提早做好一些準備一些規劃的一個方案當然就是說先做好準備那當然就是說發生的時候我們才能夠迅速的去做一個因應那因為很多觀光業者也很擔心說是不是這個觀光產業又要進入寒冬了所以我覺得這個都是業者說"},{"start":9336.607,"end":9361.236,"text":"這個擔心的那當然就是說我們在這個要吸引國際旅客來談那觀光署有針對這個部分然後在這個這幾年的這個預算裡面也都有一個項目就是精準客源的開拓計畫那這個計畫我們看到就是從110年一直到114年今年度的這個預算的數字"},{"start":9362.116,"end":9384.706,"text":"可以說是年年在增加那今年呢114年比去年113年度的這個增加的一個比例啊可以說是非常的高啦那這個部分我不曉得說我們這樣子的一個開頭計畫有特別新的執行內容嗎那預期的效益如何我是不是請署長回答一下"},{"start":9386.021,"end":9399.907,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們為了拓展多元市場所以我們在國際行銷的部分是增加2億那麼也謝謝委員的支持那這個部分呢我們原則上就是希望能夠這個增加雙印"},{"start":9401.387,"end":9421.118,"text":"雙印這個部分我們希望能夠現在看起來跟外交部在談就是印度可能會先設辦事處然後再來是印尼那麼北美市場的成長是我們比較樂觀的所以還有佈局歐洲這件事情是我們更急迫所以我們現在是以"},{"start":9422.238,"end":9440.389,"text":"這個西歐跟中歐為主那麼我們慢慢希望能夠往北所以我們今年會在河南阿姆斯特丹設這個台灣觀光旅遊服務中心那麼這樣子一個布局對於我們這個也是需要透過這樣的預算的支持"},{"start":9441.249,"end":9456.686,"text":"還有我們也希望能夠米其林這個部分是一個品牌所以我們今年也會增加兩個城市來推廣台灣的美食文化那這個對歐美人士是非常有吸引力的特別跟委員報告"},{"start":9457.449,"end":9471.052,"text":"是當然這個預算我們是支持啦可是我們希望就是說這個預算你們在執行上執行率要好然後要有效果因為我不曉得說你們的執行率如何是不是可以先講一下"},{"start":9472.935,"end":9486.959,"text":"我們在國際行銷的這個執行率的裡面其實都執行率超過95%以上所以這個部分這個也謝謝委員的支持那麼我們有一些固定的這個"},{"start":9488.9,"end":9506.93,"text":"就等於是五路齊發嘛包括我們的這個所謂的推廣會參加旅展那旅展的部分我們也增加了一些那譬如說我們沒有事辦事處的我們就拜託外交部他們有外管那透過外管的方式來協助我們那費用是由我們這邊來支應是"},{"start":9509.651,"end":9521.165,"text":"那當然就是說要精準的這個課員的開拓那就是必須針對不同的國家不同的民主的他們的特性啊喜好啊來規劃不同的這樣子的一個宣傳嘛那我不曉得說"},{"start":9525.67,"end":9552.803,"text":"這個觀光署的一個網站這個本席區瀏覽了一下我們發現說這個都是一樣的一個內容只是不同的語言你點進去只是那個語言文字的一個轉換可是內容都一樣我不曉得說這樣子的一個內容可以吸引到不同國際的客群的一個吸引力嗎所以我們要不斷的擴充我們的Database但是我們外觀就不一樣"},{"start":9553.883,"end":9581.597,"text":"我們有16個外館所以外館也有他的網站那這個是我們我們自己本身的這個網站我想就是說我們這個部分也跟22個縣市政府做串接外館是外交部喔對不起我們的駐外辦事處我們觀光所自己現在有比較多的駐外辦事處譬如說東京啊所以很多的國家他可能要來的話他可能也會針對我們官方的網站先來瀏覽吧不一定是去外館吧"},{"start":9582.618,"end":9599.512,"text":"我們網站也通案在做更新那語言的部分是多餘這個建議非常好我們針對不一樣的語言那裡的旅客的特性對他們喜歡的旅遊內容是什麼我們就用那個內容來吸引他"},{"start":9600.292,"end":9617.379,"text":"所以應該針對各國有不一樣的語言以外就是內容也不一樣比如說日本的旅客他的喜好可能跟歐美的旅客可能就不一樣吧那如果說我用日文版進去看然後結果內容跟英文版進去也都是一樣那你這樣子有去區分不同的客群嗎"},{"start":9618.62,"end":9640.48,"text":"對啦 那跟委員報告就是我們有兩個部分一個部分是等於是基本款的我們這網站那盡量更新升級另外是外館符合當地的這個市場的那個部分我們是做分開那我們也在思考一個是不是可以跟一些所謂的這些數位行銷的部分做串接"},{"start":9641.201,"end":9656.972,"text":"那這個部分呢可能效果會更好因為我們都是主題式的行銷嘛所以這個部分我們也由我們的駐外辦事處那邊來做一些個案的這些的行銷跟宣傳是 好"},{"start":9657.572,"end":9678.229,"text":"那我們知道這個觀光產業是整個國家的一個經濟發展其中一個很重要一部分那吸引國外的旅客來台灣旅遊那當然我們在國內的一些觀光景點的一個提升也是很重要那我們看到就是說彰化縣以彰化縣來說雖然在網路上網友的評語說彰化好無聊可是我們看到"},{"start":9685.115,"end":9712.507,"text":"事實上這個有關旅遊人次的統計就是全國十大觀光景點那彰化縣有兩個景點是在十名內的所以彰化是真的有很多很不錯的一個觀光的一個熱門的一個景點那以整個全國熱門縣市來看的話彰化縣也是排名第七也是在十名內這是以這個整個國內的一個觀光景點來看"},{"start":9713.928,"end":9732.177,"text":"可是我們再來看一個數字就是說有關這個在這個國旅就是國內旅遊上啊這個彰化縣是熱門的可是在國際上啊它卻是後段班所以就是說看得出來可能這個彰化縣比較吸引不到國際旅客"},{"start":9732.977,"end":9756.706,"text":"按照這樣子的一個統計來看所以我們當然就是說對國旅的部分地方各地方政府要努力嘛那中央的話就是有關這個國際旅客的一個旅遊應該就是我們觀光署中央要負比較大的一個責任吧所以這部分我不曉得觀光署有沒有什麼特別的一個努力"},{"start":9758.987,"end":9782.307,"text":"對跟委員報告一下就是確實彰化縣是以國旅市場為主但是我們也希望中台灣用區域旅遊的方式來帶動還有就是彰化有幾個重要特色譬如說我們這個馬祖遶境的還有一個就是我們這邊有很多鐵道元素其實外國人也蠻喜歡來彰化所以這個我們會再加強來做行銷"},{"start":9785.57,"end":9811.708,"text":"是這部分可能要特別不同的這個特色去做行銷那另外剛剛署長在回答的時候有提到這個旅展的部分那我不曉得說這個旅展我們有邀請各地方縣市政府一起去參加嗎還是說只是我們觀光署自己都有如果是國際的話我們透過台灣觀光協會TBA他們來邀那在國內的話他們都有區域我們有補助給公協會來舉辦"},{"start":9814.95,"end":9827.23,"text":"是 好 我想這個觀光產業的一個發展也是要中央地方一起攜手合作來努力這樣子才能夠創造最大的一個價值好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9838.873,"end":9865.855,"text":"登記的人還很多麻煩黨團助理跟後面的委員講一下我們時間盡量控制在我們的時間之內好我們現在請林國成委員主席請我們陳部長周署長請部長署長機場公司楊董事長"},{"start":9874.383,"end":9891.682,"text":"委員好部長 署長 董事長我想今天當然跟你們談這些國際觀光的問題當然心裡面有所沉重因為可以看得出來這些高關稅以後"},{"start":9892.645,"end":9918.945,"text":"大家也知道光光啊當然景氣好光光的心情會不一樣那景氣不好當然光光就會低落這個那今天本席啊也不是在指責部長也不是在指責署長或董事長但是我們就彼此之間要互相把所有的見解跟所有的需要提供"},{"start":9919.825,"end":9947.117,"text":"給我們主管機關來做參佐然後做列入未來的政策方向如何去做本席一向是非常理性的問政那指責太多對事情也沒有幫助可是建言之後當然有所改變這是我們的啟示也是我們的希望我們大家部長"},{"start":9948.598,"end":9968.828,"text":"你也知道嘛現在旅遊業觀光業現在是非常慘的啦不要我講我相信你們比我更了解可是慘之中也不能說什麼都不做那什麼都不做會更慘那什麼只要有因應之道或者方法去解決那當然"},{"start":9970.009,"end":9991.41,"text":"只有產制不會產產產所以這個部分我要代替這些有關觀光業的這些包括旅行業等等要特別跟部長來報告他們的收入入不敷出了所以部長要特別特別的去注意這些"},{"start":9992.881,"end":10018.567,"text":"另外我們大家知道啦我們一直在講說我們上千人的不管是國外或國內的旅客我相信部長這個也不是指責啦你還敢保證我們還有這麼多人來嘛所以我也不要你回答但是心珠肚明大家彼此之間有默契我相信我們一估的數據是絕對不可能達到"},{"start":10019.887,"end":10034.126,"text":"但是你最起碼不要下滑得太厲害這是很重要的好 那我現在要跟部長跟署長來探討的就是國際旅客回訪力的問題"},{"start":10036.158,"end":10062.517,"text":"我們國內啊 到國外去旅遊它回訪率啊 是非常之高喔我們計我們的統計 它有87%啊到日本去 它還想到日本去到韓國去 它還想到韓國去這有87% 不知道另外 我們來過台灣想要回訪率的 只有五成二"},{"start":10064.065,"end":10084.234,"text":"當然及格啦但是比國外來講在整個觀光的這些景氣來講跟觀光的數據來講我們是遜色很多啦遜色很多所以這個部分我要請教部長為什麼回訪率會這麼低有什麼因應之道"},{"start":10085.074,"end":10103.07,"text":"這也是我很在意的啦如果台灣真的好玩或者是品質真的非常好我相信旅客來了一次會再來一次甚至還會再帶其他的親戚朋友一起來那如果他們回訪率低對台灣的旅遊業來講就是一個簡訊整體的觀光的問題要從品質下去解決啦"},{"start":10103.65,"end":10133.07,"text":"這個要從打底開始我們觀光的品質讓旅客來會不會喜歡是我們的整體社會環境的氛圍那也是我們的整體的服務的品質的問題所以針對人才的部分我覺得這個打底的工作要做所以我們研訓院要準備要來推出我點出這個問題就是讓你在做政策有所思考啦是是當然所以因為我們有觀光署在整個管理方面當然要做適度的調整適度的調整當然我們還是希望"},{"start":10133.99,"end":10153.179,"text":"只要立法委員提出來是提供給你們做參考你們就會針對這個問題肥黃利的問題當然這個就部長你所講的我贊成就包括交通啊包括整個景點的規劃啊CP值啊這等等都是涵蓋在內的好"},{"start":10154.56,"end":10174.794,"text":"那部長另外一個就是我們確實是下跌的我們這個消費的消費力確實是下跌那為什麼會下跌當然就包括我們的觀光逆差還有我們留在台灣的天數是不斷在減少喔"},{"start":10175.915,"end":10197.825,"text":"為什麼要不斷減少當然或許剛才你所講的這個是有關係啦是有關係所以部長我們今天既然要談這些包括觀光逆差的部分我們都要把它考慮下去因為我們沒有優點就沒有人要來有它的特色就有人要來所以這個問題應該部長是"},{"start":10200.754,"end":10225.299,"text":"是都很了解啦好另外一個就是在旅遊的部分國人的住宿旅遊觀光署我要跟桌署長勉勵一下真的不能束手無策啦這裡面為什麼我要講到這裡最主要是因為包括機票"},{"start":10226.846,"end":10255.673,"text":"浮動機票包括包括住宿費也是浮動我就曾經接到接到一個一個陳情啊早上他訂了下午他進駐的時候說浮動價錢我本來訂的是三千五結果晚上客滿以後變成七千塊這是什麼就剛才部長你所講的這叫做CP值還有所有的管理出問題"},{"start":10256.894,"end":10270.214,"text":"所以有些我們國人就是這樣啊我們國人說我寧願到國外去都不願在國內旅遊為什麼因為我在台灣住一夜到國外去可以住三夜"},{"start":10271.895,"end":10288.917,"text":"這些會用所以這個是一個非常非常嚴重的問題還有何警長雖然我沒有請上來但可能你也要監督一下尤其航空公司他的浮動機票這對消費者是不公平的啦"},{"start":10289.818,"end":10307.094,"text":"怎麼會怎麼會早上這個價錢下午這個價錢不可以這樣部長你要把這個問題因為你剛才已經講過品質跟讓人家感覺非常重要所以在這個部分我還是要建議部長雖然小事我常主張啊"},{"start":10307.834,"end":10315.077,"text":"小事解決就沒有大事現在就是累積小事變成大事這個問題拜託補到輸掉你們要想一個辦法"},{"start":10321.199,"end":10348.569,"text":"想一個辦法不能說一攤什麼事情都不管存在的問題就是這些嘛就是最近啊因為我從里長議員開始辦自強活動辦了很多我記得到台東花蓮去欸以前一塊的一塊的1500塊哇菜真好啊現在一塊的3000塊啊那個菜也很不好也不新鮮為什麼因為他沒有客人"},{"start":10349.758,"end":10371.391,"text":"他沒有客人那沒有客人他就是什麼他就把價格提高把質量減少這就是什麼剛才補充你說的說拚錢嘛所以就會產生這個問題所以我還是要拜託部長在這裡可能觀光的部分要特別特別去注意留意好不好來楊董事長來我幾個問題這個跟機場管理啦當然你也很認真啦因為"},{"start":10379.076,"end":10407.87,"text":"前幾天我們也剛去考察確確實實在我們P3的第三機場確實這個工作很繁重但是在這裡我特別就是我比較納悶的從今年2月18號跟3月28號第一航廈 第二航廈我們的這個行李的這些運轉為什麼沒有那麼久為什麼會出紕落來 董事長"},{"start":10409.472,"end":10416.378,"text":"幾次的行李輸送或者運轉的系統會有的塞機或者塞車的狀況還有兩個因素一個是設備壞掉嘛我們花了12億多耶當時例如花了12億多耶"},{"start":10426.842,"end":10444.657,"text":"市長在派這國外的人來他什麼感覺所以這個部長你要注意然後董事長你也不要答覆我這個部分要特別提供給你該檢修的就要檢修另外一個就是最近啊也就是食安的問題我們什麼什麼"},{"start":10448.52,"end":10457.025,"text":"這個在二航廈裡面有一些食安的問題國際的地方 國際的門面怎麼可以把腐爛的東西讓國際觀光客"},{"start":10460.049,"end":10477.642,"text":"那個會贏效國際的耶所以你寧願收高一點就不能用爛貨去給國際旅客去吃所以我要拜託楊董事長這個部分你也要趕快去把它調查清楚把它約束所以我贊同部長"},{"start":10478.843,"end":10493.709,"text":"任何一個觀光的起飛一定要管理非常重要所以我要拜託部長小事擠多了以後就變大事所以部長我一向對於不管你在建設也好"},{"start":10494.329,"end":10523.325,"text":"不管你在做整個這些管理也好我是對你充滿信心我不希望就是每到立法院我們對你的期待你都讓我們落空這樣的話我們的觀光產業也不會上來我們的國際機場也沒有辦法去讓人家認同為世界名列前茅的機場所以要拜託楊董事長很辛苦沒有錯但是要把更細膩的管理要把它"},{"start":10524.125,"end":10535.014,"text":"作為更完善以上希望部長希望董事長能夠能夠在這個部分要去認真一點然後加油一點好不好好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝我們請陳雪生委員"},{"start":10553.154,"end":10555.075,"text":"2023年5月1號疫情解封以後,國人出國旅遊人數大增"},{"start":10579.81,"end":10604.121,"text":"但是國際旅遊的旅客來台的,那麼卻沒有達到我們預期以致國內旅遊的市場大幅的衰退那麼衰退的程度由於離島最危險住,我們金門馬上就澎湖那麼赴離島旅遊的人數也大幅的衰減那麼國旅衰減、衰退、離島旅遊崩壞"},{"start":10606.281,"end":10633.834,"text":"離島的居民生計我們就受到影響因為我們以觀光立憲離島的觀光相關產業現在只有吃老本吃老本硬撐到現在那麼已經面臨到民宿關閉餐廳要歇業的困境但隨著國際旅遊形態的改變你單一只是做官網那是不夠的現在官網已經沒人看了"},{"start":10638.277,"end":10657.986,"text":"現在形態已經改變了,那麼希望能夠深化馬祖景區推動各鄉觀光的一個廊帶以吸引更多的觀光客到離島去旅遊,這比較重要本身希望交通部及觀光署"},{"start":10661.763,"end":10680.942,"text":"對離島地區預租更多的經費我希望能夠三年有15億的經費能夠深化離島的景區對於旅遊的行銷現在的網路已經不服其待了都是社群、媒體那麼也請觀光署督促我們"},{"start":10682.128,"end":10708.795,"text":"我們風景管理處或是公安署這邊對離島這些景點能夠多做一些宣傳我看電視上常常有一些宣傳但是很少講到馬祖、金門金門當然會比較多一點離島旅遊業者原本希望開放鹿團來但鹿團來問題很多"},{"start":10712.373,"end":10737.845,"text":"縣長、議長跟我,我們常常去福建我們去專欄觀光客,當然我們也有我們的原因我們的民宿滿貴的,團費大概一萬出頭那麼他們有的就跑到韓國、比較便宜的地方去玩去了所以然後再加上我們,你看比如說我們媽祖,媽祖有個團要來"},{"start":10741.465,"end":10768.868,"text":"那我們內政部說要拿那個財報財報、會計報告我們那個廟哪有這個東西啊?沒有嘛那體育團也要來要送到體育署去去審查審查又不通過裡面有一些官方的人又不准他來所以他來有什麼關係呢?到馬祖來馬祖要被吃掉的話"},{"start":10770.12,"end":10776.425,"text":"如果被統戰的話早就被統戰走了是不是所以有一些事情不要把它"},{"start":10778.481,"end":10803.115,"text":"邊緣化昨天有一個陳姓的一個人到馬總區陳雪真是中共的走狗我是他走狗嗎?是不是?亂講話說我短命什麼的那你這種罷免的操作不服其待所以被老百姓罵老百姓通通站起來罵罵完以後落荒而逃今天已經回來了"},{"start":10806.772,"end":10835.083,"text":"我是說,在部長你這邊協調相關部門,能不能人家要來你讓他來嘛我們去弄了老半天,然後你們這邊又去組黨,是不是?像台灣的,像路克開放團,開放團他們說要什麼?小兩會,我那天回來跟周處長講過了小兩會他們是同意開的,他們同意開小兩會"},{"start":10836.294,"end":10864.91,"text":"不是不同意,因為小兩會是次團體嘛那我們很像又在談,我們這邊又把他叫停所以陸克萊沒有問題啊如果他們願意透過小兩會我們非常歡迎,不會喊停他們願意啊我們也很願意但你們主動去談嘛人家已經四處善言,很像談話還在罵我們其實有對對岸表達,小兩會之間的會議希望能夠開啟部長我剛剛問的問題,我看你回答我一下好不好他們沒有給我們回應"},{"start":10865.59,"end":10890.164,"text":"我要問對離島觀光的事情加強,比如像慢跑活動慢乘你們說慢乘的話全國都有,那換個名稱嘛機制啟動,慢乘、慢跑或是其他的你能夠做的,我們北海客到這裡可以充分利用你可以找一些拉小提琴的"},{"start":10891.064,"end":10919.523,"text":"在我們北海頻道裡面去拉小提琴真的望尊風啊什麼那個拉的如此如此我有去聽過真的非常好你聽過嗎我去聽過非常好現在很多街頭的藝人有登記的你可以跟他訂一個月比如說去個四趟去個十趟一趟補助他那個什麼旅遊費一萬塊他都願意去他都願意去願意去的話就一個月只要花個十萬塊"},{"start":10920.629,"end":10939.828,"text":"一年不過花一百二十萬像這種事情,觀光署、風景管理處都可以去做的嘛是不是?巡迴街頭做一些藝人的表演啊也不錯啊,也不一定整天都待在那個坑道裡面啊,是不是?是你在外面街頭也可以表演啊,助興啊什麼等等嘛部長你覺得勒?"},{"start":10940.589,"end":10961.302,"text":"我覺得馬祖的整體觀光環境非常好,值得推廣我們也會來努力,委員其實也一直都在交代跟指導很多的工作我聽觀光組在說也都滿配合部長指導我是不敢,因為畢竟你們真的是專業所以我也期待交通部還有州署長這邊"},{"start":10962.603,"end":10984.824,"text":"好不好,對馬祖這個部分多努力一下好不好因為真的很慘,網路上都罵翻了我也跟我們的鄉親報告可是很像最近訂房率很像不錯五到八月份慢慢就上來了五到八月份狀況很像還不錯,所以有些人說訂不到房但是真的還是加油,五月以前真的很糟糕"},{"start":10985.845,"end":11004.756,"text":"那我也跟鄉親報告,這全世界的,我們全國性的,尤其大陸旅客不來,我們現在歡迎不歡迎大陸旅客來?很歡迎一直都歡迎,只是小兩會的溝通,他們一直不願意接受你不要去擋嘛沒有擋,只是他們不願意開始談大家不要"},{"start":11005.885,"end":11025.184,"text":"不要吵架嘛你們吵吵鬧鬧的在那邊你言我語的都沒有講好話自然把氣氛就搞壞了嘛你氣氛搞壞怎麼來的是不是所以福州那邊我不是跟通匪幹什麼沒有這個回事喔而是說希望我們藉著"},{"start":11027.162,"end":11036.36,"text":"藉著金門馬祖,能夠把兩岸的一些問題,我們希望和平,希望能夠緩和好不好好那周市長你請回好不好"},{"start":11037.881,"end":11051.347,"text":"我接下來要詢問的是北竿機場擴建的期程北竿機場的擴建已經啟動了因為地區部分有心人士這個誤用數據那麼做了一些錯誤的訊息傳達給鄉親我希望部長對本席能夠"},{"start":11061.633,"end":11081.107,"text":"很清楚的報告北竿機場新建的騎乘到底需要多少時間當然今天如果講得不夠完整的話我們等駿馬祖交通考察的時候我們來共同面對鄉親他們提出的疑問我們來給他做解答"},{"start":11082.675,"end":11097.486,"text":"這裡面北竿機場的擴建,進行跑道公營,這個工程很像先由港務公司來承包做一些圍堤等等這些作業這裡面工程幾乎佔了機場的三分之二還有做沉箱什麼的那2024年底正式"},{"start":11112.094,"end":11138.649,"text":"施工的澳門機場,他也是邊坐邊走,也是邊坐邊走主席你請坐好不好,我再給我兩分鐘,謝謝,很快我們也可以根據澳門機場的興建狀況你可以邊坐邊走嘛,是不是那既然有這些先例,本市也希望交通部能夠一力對北竿機場跑道的擴建工程"},{"start":11140.298,"end":11157.328,"text":"降低施工率,對北竿的影響盡量能夠降低,這一點你先回答我好不好,謝謝報告委員,我們在細部設計的時候會盡量把那個影響的部分降低,您今天在提醒,那我們在設計的過程當中發達何議長,就你所知的部分回答我一下好不好"},{"start":11160.974,"end":11179.084,"text":"有關這個就是說在維提造地期間包含未來的施工期間大概之前都一直在講7年多的時間那本來是說我們是用最保守的方式來說會關廠嘛那可是未來在細設的時候就是在港公司這個建造標細設的時候我們會來考慮未來營運期間的總長你也幫忙一下好不好"},{"start":11184.307,"end":11190.914,"text":"幫忙一下,盡量晚上施工,夜間施工,不影響飛航的時間好不好"},{"start":11193.372,"end":11218.891,"text":"目前我們在準備那個前置作業在準備備標那備標以後找到選商以後因為你們在施工的時候就不影響飛行的安全嗎所有的情況我們都會納入考量那麼大概民航局的部分就是跑到撲滅嘛是不是撲滅的時間應該一兩年就完工了所以盡量朝著兩年的時間去走好不好那董事長你請回另外我想請問一下局長"},{"start":11221.155,"end":11240.065,"text":"高雄到馬祖的航線6月6號啟航我上次在總諮詢的時候曾經提出來有哪個縣市要用補貼的政策來處理它既然是固定的航線,而且是新開的航線我希望交通部這邊"},{"start":11242.248,"end":11267.882,"text":"你不要限制我來出錢嘛好不好剩下的問題我也跟部長報告過,部長也承諾啊可是之前好像是縣政府有說他們要補貼嘛目前現在他是定期航線目前短的時間,限制我補貼一些沒關係但是你們這邊要去檢討了好不好跟你們約時間去檢討我們希望他的運量能夠拉起來當然當然那票價核定了沒有"},{"start":11271.204,"end":11299.869,"text":"票價已經合定了票價已經合定了嘛那你也督導那個華信趕快報來好不好因為我們有一些行程要安排還有就是北竿北竿航空站的停車場啊目前一共是81加3嘛有81個是81個位置是樓下的停車場3個位置是遊覽車的嘛84個目前固定停車的大概只有一成五只有8部車子停在裡面"},{"start":11301.141,"end":11314.306,"text":"那林庭大概只有個為數我之前你們要求說三個月滾動式檢討因為當然有審計部審計的問題在裡面審計的問題可能你們也會面臨檢討那現在原來講說三個月調整到兩個月滾動式檢討局長我拜託是不是能夠一個月現在就開始滾動檢討因為你那邊變成一個蚊子館"},{"start":11329.58,"end":11347.873,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想蓋的北竿機場應該不是要讓它變成文字館我們還是會希望北竿的商品來運用那現在大概因為剛開始嘛那現在大概是一層多那目前來講我們還是會跟縣府再來一起合作啦看看如何來鼓勵鄉親盡量運用對那至於滾動檢討部分我們再觀察一下你們能不能責成這個航空站"},{"start":11356.039,"end":11382.564,"text":"趕快跟縣政府討論,然後對民眾還是共同來討論一下因為現在月租一千二嘛,其實現在訂的價格大概已經打折了現在我們那個山龍那邊停車場是六百啦你看老闆一車子不停進去,滿街還是車子我們的停車會可惜了你知道嗎,我想民航局也不是要賺錢嘛是不是你起碼收一點租金啊,維持清潔費就可以了好不好"},{"start":11384.036,"end":11412.104,"text":"好 何記長你請回 最後一個就是馬祖大橋部長是我那天總書記對院長回答我真的很不滿意你怎麼英國的商人來可以推算出來需要四百多億 三百八十七億這個數字哪裡來的你聽聽世襲的說法好不好好不好我想說英商的我也不便去推翻他啦他什麼都沒有 他只是根據世襲的"},{"start":11416.913,"end":11436.172,"text":"這個結構設計,綜合計畫的設計,然後算出來,那世襲那是假的嗎?你叫世襲去算嘛,算一下是不是跟行政院再報告一下?不然院長他不是很瞭解,你看我那年宋世襲還不知道咧,連這個案子連看都沒看到,這還得了啊好不好,我想立法委員在立法院裡質詢啊"},{"start":11437.472,"end":11448.939,"text":"院長一定要了然於胸,不能說連案子都沒看到你也可以追蹤嘛,因為委員在詢問啊是不是?是部長這點請你幫忙一下好不好?好那謝謝主席耽誤你的時間,謝謝謝謝委員謝謝部長"},{"start":11458.305,"end":11480.17,"text":"謝謝是不會耽誤我的時間而已是因為太多人我比較不好意思所以就是請大家時間稍微控制一下好我們現在請徐副國務委員謝謝主席有請我們陳部長跟韓市長請部長跟韓市長"},{"start":11489.181,"end":11515.723,"text":"委員好部長好市長好那我想前陣子我們一直看到這個在我們高屏外海有很多艘的一個貨輪甚至是權益輪在那邊滯留那最近也發現有一艘坦尚尼亞的一個貨輪還有一艘柯麥隆的一個貨輪在我們仿山的海嵐區已經滯留大概半年的時間那不曉得我們交通部有沒有掌握相關的一個狀況"},{"start":11516.864,"end":11535.591,"text":"報告委員 交通部都有掌握相關的狀況而且我們同時跟這個海巡單位也都有聯繫那尤其是我們擔心的這個海纜的問題我們跟中華電信也都有所聯繫那您在提醒的這個船我們已經有在關注了確實這半年裡面它的這個巡擊的狀況有點奇怪有點詭異那我們隨時都在關注"},{"start":11538.132,"end":11555.797,"text":"部長我想這個不是一個海上交通的問題是很可能是國安的問題是那尤其我想這個我們這個很密集一個海岸區域這之前我們到底有什麼企圖我們都不知道但是滯留半年這個真的就有詭異的現象出現那過去我想包含我們部裡面還有我們"},{"start":11556.417,"end":11580.014,"text":"相關的單位我想我已經在委員會也提過很多次務必要全面去清查尤其我們這個高屏沿海這一帶這個停泊的那個這個我們戰略的位置要還有甚至這個一些重要的一些商人的進出我想不能讓這樣子一個狀況發生尤其我們這個整個這個海嵐的安全的必要性那我們有沒有可能做強制一個驅離的動作"},{"start":11581.035,"end":11606.014,"text":"我們現在應該跟海巡那邊都有聯繫也有拜託海巡那邊有沒有做驅離的廣播其實應該也都有做驅離的廣播但是目前為止你沒有看到他做什麼違法的行徑所以他在那邊的過程當中我們就是用監控的方法我們也請中華電信隨時在看著自己的海欄如果他有接近或者是造成破壞馬上要讓我們知道"},{"start":11606.967,"end":11625.948,"text":"對 不然除了這個問題之外我還是要提醒因為過去去年我們颱風放太極的時候好幾艘就被對 全部都飄到我們這個高屏沿岸這也造成很大的一個損害所以我想這個怎麼樣再這樣做一個有效的管制安全的控管我們交通部必須要有對策"},{"start":11626.408,"end":11651.339,"text":"我們針對這個如果颱風要接近的時候我們會做一個管制是20海里還是12海里12海里以內不准他們靠近會把他們驅離到距離遠一點那這個部分我們會拜託海巡協助好 謝謝那我想剛剛我們好幾位委員有特別提到這個陶磯的問題那尤其這個這個我們國人到出國的頻率非常非常的高那"},{"start":11652.599,"end":11678.951,"text":"淘機又是我們的門面但是目前看起來去年我們的淘機的地勤事故大概平均每個月就有一件那甚至我們每次到委員會這個淘氣楊董事長就辛苦了這個常常也是被委員這個質詢的一個對象那針對這樣一個電線走火行李系統故障甚至停電這些問題董事長到底我們淘機有沒有做怎樣怎麼樣一個內部的檢討"},{"start":11681.164,"end":11708.264,"text":"是 表列的這幾件的停經事件事實上 不管我個人在內都有參與我們同仁的這個檢討那這些設備因為第一航廈它是在68年啟用到現在所以有些設備的這個巡檢跟汰換的這個時間我們現在已經開始做提前做設備的汰換的這個動作另外每一個事件的發生我們一定會找到它真正發生的原因地點在哪裡有哪一些改善的方法"},{"start":11709.185,"end":11735.13,"text":"那我們現在找到的幾個方法第一個就是我們提前做這個癱瘓巡檢第二個就是我們自己本身員工的部分要加強訓練還有維護廠商的部分那這些每一個事件整個過程當中我們會追根究柢到事件確實有所改善因為它影響的不是只有電力系統它會包括到我們的行李輸送系統等等都在內所以每一個事件我們都會做記錄那未來是希望這樣的一個頻率會減少甚至不會再發生"},{"start":11735.87,"end":11752.279,"text":"對當然也有可能因為我們現在出國的人數太多了我們原有的第一第二航廈這個量能負擔超載所以造成這個不堪系統的不堪使用那第三航廈部分是不是這個我們的相關的工程進度能不能請董事長說明一下什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":11753.545,"end":11780.406,"text":"第三航廈目前我們今年的下半年有一個第一個里程碑就是在下半年的9月10月左右我們的北登基郎廳要開始啟用接下來我們在南登基郎廳跟航廈的部分是在115年的年底之前希望能夠完成116年開始做試營運的動作那相關的還有一個PMS就是我們理科運輸系統會配合主體航廈完成的時間這些都按照原來既定的時間在趕工當中"},{"start":11782.028,"end":11797.124,"text":"我想這個也是包含立法院還有很多國人的期待希望我們整個淘擠的運作能夠正常然後相關的安全性的考量的承受度都能夠做一個最有效的檢討謝謝接著我要請我們周署長"},{"start":11807.679,"end":11834.847,"text":"我想部長跟署長也都很關切我們這個臺灣的一個觀光政策但是呢我現在本行要提出來就是我們在2019年觀光署提出一個2030年的一個臺灣觀光政策的白皮書那距離現在有一段時間但是呢我們現在看到過去我們訂定的一個2025年的一個臺灣來臺的旅客人數設定是1600萬人次但是很遺憾去年只有750"},{"start":11836.968,"end":11850.483,"text":"85萬 那今年預估是1000萬但是呢 根據我們百密書看起來比我們的那個保守值的1246萬還少了 那我想這部分的落差 這個部長跟署長我們要怎麼樣來加強"},{"start":11852.478,"end":11874.287,"text":"跟委員報告這個白皮書在疫情之前2019年把它完成的最後在2020年發表那這個是一個算是學術跟產業界的綜合那我們本來就是滾動式的檢討所以我們在2023年也就是我們國防署成立的時候我們就再檢討了一次"},{"start":11875.027,"end":11890.159,"text":"那麼在這個我們這個520的時候我們在就是去年的5月30號在行政院有做一個修正做一個報告所以這個報告基本上這個白皮書的部分已經做滾動式的檢討是"},{"start":11892.441,"end":11906.436,"text":"我們目前的部分就像部長講的我們還是以千萬來台這樣子一個標準在努力我們希望能夠合理這部分的產生因為我們前陣子委員會也有到屏東來考察"},{"start":11906.977,"end":11933.488,"text":"那特別我想部長這個我們也一直在路上一直在討論整個這個整個重大交通的建設甚至觀光產業的一個整個協助的部分我想一定要從軟硬體全面來做檢討甚至我們在很多的一個觀光的這個誘因策略上面是不是有不一樣的想法我想這部分值得我們所有產官學界大家共同來努力但是現在另外就是美國這個關稅政策"},{"start":11934.288,"end":11959.034,"text":"也會造成這個很多的一個產業的衝擊那我想觀光業可能我們這個業者也出了一彈那針對這部分部長這邊有什麼看法報告委員目前的衝擊到底有多大我想還沒有人估得出來那但是業者如果到時候受到衝擊需要協助的部分觀光署現在就會開始做準備如果真的有遇到很大的衝擊那業者需要幫忙我們一定會幫忙"},{"start":11959.694,"end":11980.732,"text":"那委員也在提醒所以這個部分我們就先來預作準備那不過我覺得衝擊到底多大這還需要一段時間的觀察那我們現在就會開始密切觀察它到底影響有多大因為目前為止稅率到底多少還沒有任何一個國家知道大家都還在變動當中那到底對經濟的影響有多大也還不曉得我們會密切來觀察這件事"},{"start":11981.684,"end":12003.518,"text":"這次也要謝謝部長跟署長我想針對整個屏東縣的觀光我們大概到這個今年底大概有一些的策略尤其這個交通部我們搭配了我們的國家公園署搭配屏東縣政府我們也預定了很多不一樣的一個活動的一個項目當然也是希望我們所有的國內外的遊客都能夠到屏東來"},{"start":12004.298,"end":12033.53,"text":"但是就是一樣這個我要提出這個論調就是說活動很好像這次清明年叫做臺灣祭人很多但是我覺得不能只靠這樣的一個活動的行銷怎麼樣去強迫我們整個這個觀光的一個亮點甚至這個在業者他們需要的一些配套上面怎麼樣給他們挹注的一個力道我想這不一定是最清楚啦他們有很多的想法但是苦於得不到我們關愛的眼神"},{"start":12034.07,"end":12054.765,"text":"這幫你是不是我們可以再來強化一下跟所有的旅館業者民宿業者的一個合作會這個部分的合作我們會繼續來努力我們也跟他們都有聯繫好那最後一張我們看一下我們這個墾丁南灣這個不然你覺得這樣漂亮嗎這個陽傘有漂亮嗎現在比過去好看好看啊好看那我想這個也是我們在觀光署在我們在跟國家公園"},{"start":12055.385,"end":12078.3,"text":"管理處這邊合作的一個把這個南灣海灘把它美化的一個畫面未來我想這樣的一個跨部會的合作也是我們期待的那我也會再邀請我們相關的單位未來針對怎樣的一個觀光的一個策略的部分做有效的一個檢討希望我們部裡面也全力支持當然我們一起努力那歡迎大家到美麗的墾丁來玩謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":12086.4,"end":12101.2,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請邱若驊委員好 謝謝主席 主席請交通部陳部長請部長"},{"start":12110.142,"end":12122.378,"text":"我們今天的會議是針對如何吸引國際觀光客來臺旅遊觀光碼做的專案報告我們先看到這張圖本席的選區涵蓋巴德大席復興"},{"start":12123.399,"end":12142.591,"text":"那其中的大溪還有復興呢下來都是我們全國非常重要的觀光重鎮那擁有池湖還有石門水庫大溪老街腳板山還有東眼山等全國知名的景點嘛那年年都吸引許多遊客造訪那也要謝謝署長對我們桃園大大小小觀光活動的支持"},{"start":12143.191,"end":12160.182,"text":"那除了大溪和復興之外我們看到巴德那巴德也蘊藏很多豐富的觀光潛力有很多值得推廣的休憩景點那因此本席也針對巴德的觀光發展向部長請教具體的規劃那請教部長您有去過巴德嗎"},{"start":12160.942,"end":12188.358,"text":"巴德去過巴德去過那對巴德有什麼印象去吃飯去吃飯所以只有對餐廳有印象對餐廳有印象好沒關係那介紹幾個景點給部長那我們來看到本系列舉出幾個非常具有代表性的觀光景點那我們看到新仁花園夜市是北部最大的夜市它佔地6000坪也有400個以上的攤位是在地也是外地遊客必訪的熱點那我們看下一個景點"},{"start":12189.218,"end":12204.799,"text":"八德兒童玩具圖書館它館內有館藏了三萬冊的圖書那最大特色是結合玩具那也是結合閱讀還有互動體驗非常適合親子同遊是推廣家庭旅遊的絕佳場所那下一個"},{"start":12205.78,"end":12223.471,"text":"八德埤塘自然生態公園那也是八德區非常重要的休閒還有生態景點那根據觀光署的統計他在2024年造訪的人次達144萬多人次可以看到他非常的受歡迎也有具有發展的潛力那還有一個是"},{"start":12225.16,"end":12247.697,"text":"我們下一個巧克力共和國那它是國內知名品牌七夕魯迦巧克力所設立的觀光工廠那它結合產業文化還有體驗活動非常受到遊客喜愛那部長其實巴德還有其他非常多值得探索的觀光資源那因為時間的關係那本期就不一一列舉了那這邊要請教部長您認為發展觀光最重要的因素是什麼"},{"start":12248.297,"end":12271.35,"text":"我想要讓民眾知道那裡有什麼可以玩的像剛剛委員所說明的這個巴德有這些景點您現在說了在我腦海裡就有一個圖像譬如說七七乳家是我從小愛吃的但我不曉得巴德有這個巧克力共和國那我現在知道了有這個圖像之後我未來就會去所以我認為那個圖像的行銷很重要讓民眾知道那裡有什麼好玩"},{"start":12271.843,"end":12295.604,"text":"是那除了圖像的行銷之外那部長你還有想到什麼其他的關鍵因素嗎交通啊交通沒錯就是交通啊對那交通的大眾運輸的可及性它會影響就是地方觀光它決定了地方的觀光發展嘛那以巴德為例如果沒有順暢的交通系統那再好的景點也難以吸引就是我們不管是國內外的觀光遊客那前往嘛"},{"start":12296.024,"end":12306.335,"text":"那這邊要談到那部長請問您知道目前巴德重大的交通建設推動中的幾項重大交通建設嗎其實蠻多的耶巴德我們有交流到的這個設計的在設計中的這個交流到的改善工程的增設對 說到巴德交流到那還有"},{"start":12319.633,"end":12331.913,"text":"是不是委員也有在爭取快速道路快速道路沒錯那還有捷運綠線那本席也多次提到巴德三一延伸巴德那部長您知道目前此案的進度嗎"},{"start":12332.708,"end":12361.601,"text":"目前應該是在可行性綜合規劃綜合規劃目前卡關在行政院是沒有辦法推進可以說是遙遙無期我們交通部的審查已經結束了那也送到行政院那邊委員在關心行政院那邊的進度我也來去了解一下看有沒有可能加快您認為就是遲遲卡關在行政院的原因是為什麼這個我就不曉得您不曉得有沒有其他可以向部長"},{"start":12363.569,"end":12364.055,"text":"今天沒有來嗎"},{"start":12365.922,"end":12394.281,"text":"是 沒關係 這個部分我會再去跟行政院那邊詢問是 那部長這邊 本席也要讓部長知道就是三陰縣今年年底完工2025年 已經明年營運嘛那針對三陰縣延伸至巴德呢那交通部在去年9月20日的時候就已經報請行政院核定嘛那本席也多次的請部長向卓院長來反映希望行政院能盡快的回應我們地方鄉親的期待那很遺憾 現在已經超過201天了行政院遲遲都還沒有回覆"},{"start":12395.742,"end":12397.773,"text":"這邊這邊"},{"start":12398.667,"end":12426.504,"text":"這邊本席有向行政院提出我的疑問那我們先來看到這個書面的資料那其中的第三點呢LB13還有LB12A進出的人口進出站的人口偏低這是行政院那邊給本席的答覆那存在運量不足的疑慮那因此有要求交通部來督導地方政府重新評估這兩站的必要性那部長所以您有掌握到嗎"},{"start":12427.383,"end":12432.847,"text":"好這個細節我當然沒有掌握到不過委員您今天在提醒我就針對這個細節我會去問我們這個部裡面的審查的單位像鐵道局他們針對這個議題我們的看法是什麼我會來詢問他們一下"},{"start":12440.754,"end":12460.82,"text":"是 那部長您今天也認識到我們巴德有非常多特色的景點嘛那對我們地方的觀光發展也非常重要那希望部長可以盡快再次的與我們行政院溝通與協調那盡快的回應我們鄉親的期盼嘛好 那部長可以先請回座休息請民航局何局長"},{"start":12472.939,"end":12498.467,"text":"局長好 局長目前兩岸關係緊張嘛那對岸自2022年起共進行了六次環台軍演那近期兩次呢從發布到實施的時間它非常的短那以聯合力界2024B為例2024年10月24號它凌晨宣布那早上8點的時候就開始演習了那2025年今年4月1號它也是早上突然宣布然後它即刻就發動了"},{"start":12499.767,"end":12527.143,"text":"海空的聯合演訓那當日有36架的36架共機進入我方的應變區那請問局長那在這樣的情況下桃園國際機場它位於北台灣的空域樞紐那同時還有新竹的空軍基地以及臺北松山機場他們距離都非常的相近那當我方在緊急升空攔截共機的時候那民航局這邊像桃園機場他們有沒有及時掌握軍方的戰機緊急起飛的情況"},{"start":12528.863,"end":12554.865,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為我們整個台北飛航情報局就是包含北部這個整個空域都是我們的飛航服務總台在管轄那基本上跟戰機之間我們其實都會跟軍方的戰管聯繫基本上就是說有相關的訊息是會有一些聯繫那有關中共這邊的演習如果我們有事先在我們的飛航公告有看到我們就會做相關的因應措施相關的預防那剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":12556.207,"end":12565.423,"text":"幾次演習 如果我們事先提到我們就會規劃相關的航路那這樣的軍事活動會不會影響到民航其他起降的干擾"},{"start":12567.675,"end":12588.324,"text":"基本上因為我們民航機都有劃定的航路那所以說這幾次來講的話基本上都是航行上都算正常那基本上我們其實在整個軍方如果有共機等等的這個訊息這個軍方也是會有掌握我們也會有掌握所以對我們的淘機來講其實基本上這幾次是沒有沒有特別的"},{"start":12588.424,"end":12599.987,"text":"所以本席向局長確認所以目前對於預告他馬上就實施了這樣軍演模式民航局都有掌握他應變措施以及流程OK好謝謝局長的說明好謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請蔡其昌委員"},{"start":12623.431,"end":12647.058,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長何局長跟李董事長請部長、局長、李董事長委員好部長早我先請教一下李董事長我看一下今年那個2025年郵輪傳奇的預報表"},{"start":12651.269,"end":12674.535,"text":"這個台中港還是零嘛那去年我有請你們去努力爭取那爭取的狀況怎麼樣本來是今年有兩艘啦那一艘的話剛好要來的時候剛好海嘯不好所以他臨時就取消台中那今年沒有在明年的話我們現在目前預報明年後年各有一艘各有一艘的話大概就是"},{"start":12678.656,"end":12702.723,"text":"這裡115年的4月7號有海島天空那116年的1月8號有瑞嘉塔的那個郵輪現在都已經有預報了那我們隨時都準備好但是這個期間的話我們還是要繼續爭取好 那個董事長這其實我想你們給我一個報告就是說那台中港你看喔這個"},{"start":12704.834,"end":12722.831,"text":"基隆港從基隆、高雄、花蓮都有看起來都狀況不差是船公司不願意到台中還是什麼問題港公司有沒有做過這樣的分析"},{"start":12723.772,"end":12734.628,"text":"我們台中港的分公司他有結合就是彰化台中還有還有那個苗栗大家希望就是大家一起合作不是不是 董事長這個齁我這個人很務實啦"},{"start":12739.389,"end":12758.389,"text":"做不起來,不要再開前行跟主委在那裡等你一年我們兩個在這裡,我問你,你說你認真拚拚拚的結果也是贏我每年又問你,你又拚了,你又跟我說什麼什麼,又沒有了我的意思是這樣啦,就跟那個何局長,我等一下會問他,都是一樣的就是"},{"start":12759.502,"end":12781.162,"text":"清泉崗機場、台中港如果它是一個在你們交通專業評估沒有潛力、沒有未來、沒有希望的地方就不要再在那裏了如果它本來天生麗質是你們不認真把它找那個對象那當然就是我們要持續去檢討怎麼去做嘛"},{"start":12781.963,"end":12808.609,"text":"如果他本來就不可能可以發展你們為了應付立法院就每天都講努力努力努力做了很久還是沒有結果那我覺得這個大家不要浪費這種時間部長你聽我講一下我想這個台中港他先天上面條件的問題等一下我們可以請李董事長來回答一下啦那另外就觀光的層面來講因為他那個郵輪的特性是下船之後要再上船他有幾個小時的時間"},{"start":12809.309,"end":12831.427,"text":"那我們希望說可以很短的時間可以到達可以玩的地方旅客才會有興趣那這也是我們海線觀光正要扎根該做的事所以我的意思就很簡單就是說你們要盤點出譬如說我去爭取郵輪來是因為我必須要清楚告訴郵輪公司我這裡提供什麼樣的優惠我有什麼樣的觀光資源但"},{"start":12832.276,"end":12855.448,"text":"當你這些坐近還是沒有一台遊覽公司願意來的時候那我們就會去分析說我們是不是不如基隆不如花蓮不如高雄這個才是我要的實際的東西啦那因為每次質詢時間都是那個六分八分的我沒辦法在這裡跟你討論這個啦但我的立場很清楚嘛因為我一直覺得中部的觀光資源並不會比"},{"start":12856.048,"end":12874.605,"text":"南部說我不是說比南部很差啦許智傑就會有意見了啦我的意思是說我們也不比人家差啦各有特色嘛花東有花東的特色基隆對不對有基隆的這個條件那我的意思台中也有台中的條件那到底是什麼原因老是"},{"start":12876.567,"end":12901.988,"text":"郵輪數都是掛零這一個第二個那郵輪公司為什麼不想要來台中在中部地區的鄉親出去一個是我們對於我們地方觀光產業的發展有幫助就是郵輪進來嘛第二個是我們的鄉親要出門方便那為什麼台中港沒有一個郵輪公司願意來我希望惠後你跟我說明我講過嘛你如果要來台中我先報一百間"},{"start":12904.212,"end":12931.591,"text":"如果有傳來,我個人先包一百個房間我把我的,我來促銷,我們很多鄉親可以去我包一百間房間,我說這個也沒人要來也沒有人回應我說,這到底可以不行啦我的意思就是說,進跟出要繁榮這個地方,進跟出都是重要的那我不想在這裡浪費時間,是我每次叫你要做,你就說好然後就告訴我為什麼做不成那我們應該更認真的深究"},{"start":12932.612,"end":12957.045,"text":"這樣我們才是面對問題的解決問題的方法嘛好不好 董事長這個就是這樣所以你會後麻煩寫個報告給我到底我們出了什麼問題既沒有人要停也不來這裡載客人出去到底你們在跟遊輪公司接洽實際運作的過程裡面它到底出現了什麼障礙好不好這件事情因為時間有限啦我還有兩個大問題第二個問題啊這個何局長麻煩一下"},{"start":12960.492,"end":12982.854,"text":"所以我想我們已經做很多次的這個溝通就我一直在講清泉鋼國際機場它是很有潛力的由實際的數據它過去也都是成長最快的的航運的這個機場那所以我們共同一個結論就是我們認為它是有潛力的就它有未來的啦那既然有未來我們就應該好好的來面對它的未來該怎麼樣讓它變得更好"},{"start":12983.695,"end":13002.328,"text":"那我一直在講說我們的航線都太少了啦像我把它你看我做一個整理當然我們很努力嘛包括最近我們爭取那個神戶也要也要飛了嘛這都好事啦但是不管我怎麼爭取我都還是覺得慢"},{"start":13003.513,"end":13025.254,"text":"你看許智杰委員都一直在笑他都每天廣告都全高雄小港差不多他爭取了大概幾條了十幾二十條了你看十五條啦我的意思是說台中要加油啦我知道有很多的問題啦就是包括飛機的數量的問題比如說華信他就是飛機數量嘛比如說"},{"start":13026.914,"end":13046.766,"text":"這個對方啊我們想去的地方對方他們這個還沒有允許嘛那我就一直覺得很奇怪為什麼高雄都會允許台中都不會允許那飛機不夠為什麼台中都高雄都夠那台中都會不夠這個才是我今天要關心的問題啦那另外呢"},{"start":13047.745,"end":13072.551,"text":"那個局長台中今年除了我們爭取這個神戶就是我們以這個叫做星宇來講我們爭取了沖繩然後高松定期航班然後神戶馬上要飛了對局長今年還有哪一些國家的航空公司可以或者外商的航空公司在今年還會增加哪一些點"},{"start":13074.969,"end":13097.395,"text":"目前來講的話那個月竹還會再開一個那個壓樁壓樁對6月那國航有沒有像那個虎航還欠我一個航點虎航其實他已經開航了澳門嘛那5月下旬會有這個名古屋那跟日本的機場加油確定以後他就會有名古屋那6月的話也會有寄中"},{"start":13098.137,"end":13118.673,"text":"好所以這個名古屋跟冀州算還我的啦對不對因為去年我一直在講這個事情你們告訴我說因為那個冬季航班的問題所以我也出面在我的社群平台也解釋了所以但是我的意思就是說今年要趕快還我啦不然你虎航給我斷掉人家以為虎航要撤離台中了所以"},{"start":13119.619,"end":13143.047,"text":"明鼓屋 今年明鼓屋跟濟州島這兩個務必努力促成董事長你要不要這個應該是確定的啦那是你的子公司可以嗎可以嗎明鼓屋跟濟州這個是確定的吧我回去督促他們把那個schedule訂好會後啦時間的關係會後你再來請胡航你跟胡航再一起來我辦公室我們再來把青年鋼機場再盤點一下"},{"start":13144.908,"end":13171.136,"text":"這個喔 台中真的很有潛力啦我們有實際的這個工商的需求也有觀光 龐大的觀光能量不然的話 那個星宇啊 那張董事長他不會傻傻的一直要發展台中嘛所以 他有潛力那現在怎麼問題 積極的把這些航線跟要克服的軟硬體的問題把它解決掉 好不好最後一個問題啊 這個 我請那個署長好了"},{"start":13172.621,"end":13199.999,"text":"沒有找你上來怪怪的光光一直覺得不是太理想蘇長我一直跟你講那個數字管理很重要當然你現在部長只是就是說院裡面現在要成立這個叫做光光的研訓院那我再一次強調數字的管理沒有數字的管理我隨便舉一個例子大家都在講墾丁貴那墾丁真的貴嗎"},{"start":13201.67,"end":13228.815,"text":"如果你作為觀光主管機關我問你說墾丁真的貴嗎其實你沒有辦法說服我墾丁貴或不貴因為你沒有數據嘛就你沒有任何的做以數據或者觀光趨勢的這種預測因為那你要預測也要有數據嘛所以這些你都沒有的情況下其實你沒有辦法回答我這個問題那我再問你住房率對不對很多人覺得台灣的房價很高"},{"start":13230.083,"end":13254.515,"text":"每一個人講這個話我相信他都是有憑有據啦因為什麼這是他的旅遊感受可是呢我也常常遇到我自己的旅遊感受我打電話想要去住一個地方每次打去他都跟我說客滿那你就知道一個國家不可能存在著有一些地方老是你打去跟他說他客滿然後有的人說喔這個這個飯店快要倒了"},{"start":13255.689,"end":13273.749,"text":"到底是要倒了還是生意太好那表示有可能是形態的不同譬如說度假型的可能生意沒有那麼好商務型的可能很好因為隨著台積電隨著外資的投資所以商務型的可能很好那區域也有關係譬如說高雄市人家陳其邁每天都在辦"},{"start":13274.91,"end":13287.12,"text":"每個禮拜都在辦各大型的這些藝文活動 國際的藝文活動所以可能國際客進來 台灣客也跑去高雄住所以高雄可能好 可能好 因為我也沒有數據嘛"},{"start":13288.257,"end":13315.058,"text":"那這些數據其實是作為觀光主管機關我常常對觀光署長我都特別的寬容是因為我一直講台灣要觀光立國你把觀光署長罵到死台灣也不會觀光立國因為觀光要立國就要靠行政院靠所有的縣市首長要有旅行的旅遊的DNA才有可能做到不然的話你要蓋出那麼醜的東西整個城市治安亂七八糟的誰會去所以那個DNA是要大家一起啦"},{"start":13315.745,"end":13344.992,"text":"但是做一個觀光署署長對於觀光趨勢跟觀光資源到底怎麼去解決這些問題你應該要功夫要下在這裡功夫要下在這裡譬如說人家說墾丁的墾丁大街食物貴那食物真的貴嗎我相信有一定有害群之馬他故意賣的很貴然後就有人吃到那一家現在的社群媒體太發達了他吃到那一家之後就開始說這個地方爛死了"},{"start":13345.7,"end":13366.236,"text":"他有沒有造謠 他沒有 他真的就買到很貴的啊可是其他沒有賣很貴的人誰知道他們在哪裡當然叫觀光署做這個很困難這要結合屏東縣政府再結合在地的觀光業者願不願意組織起來自救只要他們願意組織起來 政府的力量進去公告出"},{"start":13367.349,"end":13377.676,"text":"便宜的東西在哪裡不是便宜啦就是經濟實惠又合理的東西在哪裡這個是政府的責任嘛因為業者他沒有辦法他自己沒辦法面對這個輿論市場跟整個整個這個這個這個這個"},{"start":13383.832,"end":13396.08,"text":"所有所有的集體的業者但政府可以協助我覺得這反而是應該觀光署要做的事情否則我們在這個在這裡我已經講了快20年了從你們部長當我助理就開始講這個問題講到今天我們還是在講這個問題"},{"start":13399.195,"end":13418.372,"text":"老師還是在講同樣的問題所以我的意思說觀光署應該清楚去定位從觀光局變觀光署到底觀光署要做什麼把全台灣的觀光叫觀光署一個人做那是笑話啦這種國家會發展出來的好觀光我才覺得這是有問題的時間到了主席都已經受不了要站起來了"},{"start":13419.764,"end":13434.45,"text":"市長你不用回答了啦 因為已經來不及了啦 已經時間到了啦那最後我跟你提醒 像那個公佈啊像有一些像阿根廷成長39% 37%還是30幾%那個我覺得那個就不用特別去強調啦你要公佈沒有問題 那不用特別強調為什麼 因為他成長30幾%總人數都還不到1000人"},{"start":13441.013,"end":13461.921,"text":"那人家就會覺得你是在欺騙大家其實你可能沒有這個意思啦你可能只是把所有的成長的狀況以序列來排列而已嘛可是如果這樣的東西被做文章好像一副觀光局就在強調說有啊這個有成長啊像阿根廷就有突破成長三十幾%結果人數幾百個成長三十幾%之後幾百個"},{"start":13466.002,"end":13474.615,"text":"日韓比較有意義這個就鬧笑話 這個就會人家覺得你浩大喜功以偏概全好不好時間的關係啦 不好意思住下 抱歉好 謝謝"},{"start":13495.732,"end":13503.198,"text":"現在請許知捷委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長還有署長 觀光署長請部長 署長"},{"start":13514.929,"end":13539.374,"text":"委員好 召委好部長 署長 大家好你今天很累 我知道 但是也要要求你先看這個數據日本三千多萬 泰國三千多萬 越南一千七百多萬 韓國一千六百多萬他們的明年的目標通通有在增加"},{"start":13541.277,"end":13563.208,"text":"那剛剛其實其昌委員提到的我也蠻有感觸的啦我跟部長報告一下就是日本在2030年他的目標期望值是6千萬所以我們在看事情不是只是看這個時刻那也不是只是看明年我要達到什麼目標"},{"start":13565.426,"end":13592.804,"text":"我長遠來講應該怎麼樣去做比如說日本他要達到六千萬二零三年他該做多少事他現在就應該要想啦而我們公安署今年是七百八十六萬民警的目標是去年七百八十六去年是七百八十六今年的目標是一千萬"},{"start":13594.192,"end":13621.812,"text":"明年啊2030年啊我們有沒有目標我們有一個長期的規劃啦那個當然也有一個目標值但目前還在討論當中這個計畫我們還在討論發生這個目標我們要拿什麼特色來吸引人家來比如說你去日本你可能想說去洗溫泉啦日本很乾淨啦你去泰國你可能想去玩水啦"},{"start":13623.234,"end":13650.489,"text":"好那部長你來台灣你是外國人你台灣最想去哪裡如果是外國人的觀點我們討論了很多啦就是大家對台灣的這個知道的點大概就那幾個好例如說101那幾個之外還能想到什麼對大概101故宮日月潭阿里山等等之類的還想去哪裡嘛除了這幾個剛才有人講過好像是先傳還是其他人講過署長那個"},{"start":13652.525,"end":13680.871,"text":"你現在來台灣除了剛才他們講過這幾個點你還想去哪裡 還想做什麼我們現在全球都是以主題式的理由啦譬如說有曼城 有小鎮然後有我簡單的講 因為時間不多我只是提問題讓你們想啦因為回答都差不多啦因為我做主席在這裡聽這麼久回答出來的答案都差不多啦我想說就是我們用一個不一樣的想法去思考"},{"start":13682.315,"end":13704.427,"text":"我到底是要怎麼keep in 我的時間要多久 我有什麼要求嗎所以我現在第一個想法就是我希望觀光部 觀光署跟交通部我們想一下2030年我們大概希望多少人而不是只是想今年我要多少人 我明年要多少人那我大概多少人之後呢 我應該要怎麼樣去完成"},{"start":13706.804,"end":13733.61,"text":"比如說台灣比其他國家強的地方是什麼我們要用比其他地方強的來吸引人家來比如說自然風光比如說歷史文化比如說在地特色那我到底是用哪一些點就像剛才部長一直說的 你要希望一個圖像"},{"start":13736.494,"end":13763.745,"text":"人們要來台灣的圖像是什麼其實我之前部長之前我也跟署長提過就是說其實我認為台灣比世界最強的其實是美食啦你想要去台灣做什麼,我會去台灣吃很多好吃的東西全世界各地的美食都有比如說剛才那個巧克力高和果我倒還蠻喜歡的"},{"start":13766.55,"end":13792.884,"text":"類似那一種感覺就是說進步的我們希望有創造出來嗎比如說剛剛署長也有提到的米其林我之前也有要求過就是說台北有米其林我們國用沒有米其林現在感謝有來了啦有好幾家我們高雄現在已經有滿多米其林來了所以這個也要謝謝署長有聽進去有努力但是我一直"},{"start":13794.503,"end":13811.517,"text":"語重心長或者我一直很感慨的希望就是說我希望創造剛才柏中說的我們有圖像剛才蘇中說的我們有主題讓世界的人看到台灣想到這個東西他想要來所以這個問題很大啦也不是很容易就馬上回答我我也知道我仔細記一下其實我一直覺得"},{"start":13825.083,"end":13850.155,"text":"我們台灣的美食真的可以影響全世界我在北部、中部、南部、東部定定我要創造什麼特色出來我可以跟地方政府討論,我地方政府可以補助去創造一個東西出來比如說之前我也跟署長提到我們台鐵其實現在公司的話部長也很熟了"},{"start":13851.098,"end":13879.214,"text":"公事化之後台鐵其實有很多我之前也舉例過就是六都風華或者是鐵道秘境六都風華就是說我人的直轄市裡面我要創造什麼直轄市的特色共同創造我鐵道秘境裡面我每一個鄉間小村我每一個店我都可以找出那個地方的在地特色說實在的最在地才會最國際"},{"start":13880.56,"end":13909.286,"text":"那我今天如果沒有在地特色我就很難創造出國際的人來觀光嘛所以是不是就是說請交通部跟觀光署就是說今天我們以假設部長有一天你當院長啦假設啦那假設是2030年啦我給你預測這樣會不會有進步那你再看回來啦你今天的想法"},{"start":13910.287,"end":13922.638,"text":"跟五年後 六年後 之後你現在有沒有辦法落實那台灣創造什麼樣的特色我們關公營靠日本現在六千好了我現在假設台灣兩千好了啦我現在今年是七八六嘛我設定我2030年我要兩千萬嘛我要有這種破例跟願景"},{"start":13936.826,"end":13956.836,"text":"去做幾位 去結合各個不同的部會今天我交通部 因為觀光室的程序沒到那裡他要去結合各部會有困難這樣交通部 我以交通觀光部的角度我和各部會 各地方政府聯繫我們作為討論類似創造這樣子的特色台灣有機會在2030年創造2000萬的"},{"start":13965.697,"end":13994.627,"text":"觀光都給建來這樣改良我不知道保庭會接受嗎報告委員您這個概念是很正確啦就是說我們要先設定一個目標那在這幾個幾年裡面要怎麼樣達成這個目標台灣應該呈現什麼樣子的觀光的印象給全球的客人這個是我們該去塑造的那也確實剛剛委員有提醒一點我們要跟各部會一起合作因為坦白講觀光署目前能做的大部分是行銷告訴大家現在的台灣是什麼樣子"},{"start":13995.387,"end":14009.353,"text":"但是台灣要真的變得很好玩是大家一起努力包含地方政府包含各部會大家一起努力才有辦法變得更好謝謝部長因為時間的關係這個部分我們會跟大家來討論我也沒有想要吵架就是我們最要一句話就是說像日本這樣2030年是六千萬"},{"start":14014.355,"end":14042.611,"text":"那我希望2030年台灣市兩千萬那部長2030年你可能還有機會再公佈門我希望那時候問你的時候可以看到成果這樣會大頭有比較長但是我是覺得你沒有這樣規劃到格局你以後就做不到那個程度那各部會該協調的就像部長帶著觀光署怎麼樣去協調各部會我的目標就是要達到這樣子一個期望值"},{"start":14043.351,"end":14070.578,"text":"有很多需要努力的 有很多不同的各個不同的面向都需要去努力的你就是要有一個這樣的步驟去找觀光室 去協調各部會去設定期望值 去做一個主題 或是特色的創造跟改變我們就看到那個當時2013年那個時候我們可以看到的成果是往這個目標去努力好不好好希望可以達成啊好 我們努力好好好 謝謝"},{"start":14074.481,"end":14097.969,"text":"謝謝許志堅委員好謝謝我們現在請尤浩委員謝謝高輝主席那有請部長那署長先不用擔心那個我們先請那個也請一下台鐵台鐵"},{"start":14104.906,"end":14104.928,"text":"是"},{"start":14108.956,"end":14137.574,"text":"委員好部長好那因為禮拜一的時候那時候我們有就交有關於台鐵的部分那像剛才延續許思杰委員有提到的那像促進觀光的話那時候有提到在集資線外能夠協助讓一些火車頭或者是讓一些故事館鐵道的故事館還能夠在集資線這邊來去做做延伸啦還能夠來藉由這樣子來促進觀光還來有這樣子的一個呈現那"},{"start":14138.695,"end":14162.085,"text":"另外一個面向我要來就教一下部長就是剛才也發生了個地震那我們也知道在氣象署他也在提到說最近的兩週其實都有可能有比較大的地震那當然說說大家坊間喜歡看什麼龍樹亮那些什麼阿南德那些那大家都會就是都會討論這個防災救災的這些議題"},{"start":14165.666,"end":14187.733,"text":"那我想要請教一下部長在目前來講我們在交通運輸上如果有遇到這種重大的地震那目前的防災演練每年的次數大概是多少那規模跟方案大概是如何是不是可以講一下其實在交通體系上面來說的話遇到地震影響比較大會是軌道"},{"start":14189.253,"end":14207.572,"text":"會是軌道 因為軌道的精準度要高那我們目前也有設定一個一定的這個地震的值當它到達那個值 像台鐵也是一樣我們會有巡軌的動作 五級嘛台鐵也是五級 那高鐵也有一定的水準巡軌的動作 那巡軌完之後怎麼樣讓它慢慢加速的運行"},{"start":14208.132,"end":14234.621,"text":"這個部分其實我們都有一定的機制那最近這幾年最近這幾個月其實遇到蠻多的颱風那個地震那我們也都是照這個SOP在走平常時的演練其實因為台灣時常在地震不用演練也時常在做實際的SOP的操作因為居安思危啊那因為我知道目前來講的話是在這個國家防災日的時候配合地震停車跟疏散旅客來進行這個地震避難的演練"},{"start":14235.401,"end":14258.786,"text":"但是我在之前我們有去日本做一個學術交流在防災的包括他們演練的部分其實他們的次數是非常多的那我是想說來就教一下像未來像目前來講這個地震比較頻繁甚至有可能有大型地震的這種可能性因為中央氣象署有警告過了嘛也有提示過了所以說那有沒有可能會增加這個"},{"start":14259.966,"end":14289.246,"text":"這個就有關於地震的這種演練跟次數跟規模我們目前市區在一年都各有一次啦一年一次其實就是這個國家防災日的時候相對會比較少委員在提醒其實沒有錯確實最近地震的頻繁度以我自身的感受頻繁度似乎是有變高了一些那這方面的演練或許我們可以再加強我們會拜託包含台鐵拜託高鐵都做這方面的這個演練"},{"start":14290.026,"end":14308.308,"text":"好那再來的話就是地震時的時候如果那種大型地震它被通報的話那其實是等中央氣象署的這個通報嗎還是說在台鐵或是在部長這邊有辦法收到第一時間的這種大型的如果發生大地震的這種通報以及說災害的狀況"},{"start":14309.409,"end":14336.128,"text":"因為目前來講的監測機制啊那台鐵的這些鐵軌的監測機制他就是現有的他不是平常的那種狀況他們其實都有感測器他各個編電系統都有感測器那各地的這個地震的狀況他們也都有感測器那另外一方面當然氣象署像剛剛的地震在震之前氣象署的訊息都已經先進來了所以這個部分其實訊息在現在這個時代已經非常的快好"},{"start":14336.628,"end":14361.539,"text":"那因為時間有限那我還是本席在這裡建議就是增加這個防災的演練的次數及規模好不好那再來就是說當然在賴清德總統的時候講這個談話之後啊這台海危機是逐漸升溫那如果假如在戰爭時期的話那在相關的台鐵的疏散或是做這個暫時輸運轉運的部分有沒有任何的一個配套方案"},{"start":14362.626,"end":14376.545,"text":"報告委員其實我們有配合內政部這個全社會任性的這個演練我們各個單位都有做不一樣的演練那所有交通體系的所有的單位都有做不一樣的規劃跟演練好 那就有關於台鐵的部分有演練過幾次"},{"start":14378.747,"end":14407.322,"text":"包委員我們是每年都會做各分區都會做一次演練都是戰爭時期的演練嗎對我們也會跟國防部但是配合萬安46號的時候做演練對那個是萬安的演習是萬安演習那我們各分區有各分區我們自己內部依照我們的災害防救的要點要辦演習那所以說加時演習的時候像台鐵的這些所謂的這個火車這些都是被徵用的嗎"},{"start":14408.796,"end":14425.482,"text":"我們在演習會有劇本就如果像萬安演習我們就會各單位消防國防相關單位有劇本那依照劇本我們要提供的車輛還有人員我們都會來配合那一年的話在演練幾次萬安演習是一年會在"},{"start":14426.723,"end":14447.856,"text":"選擇定地點演習一次那我們自己各分區的每一年還會依照我們自己這個實際的狀況還有當年度發生的一些事件事故比較是重點的項目我們來做演練那我還是本期在這裡建議就是說因為在旺岸的話他是主要針對空襲模擬照明洗面跟旅客疏散"},{"start":14448.476,"end":14472.011,"text":"那其實真正要遇到這種情況的這種應變來講這樣子的演練規模可能不夠啊所以說本期還是建議局安思維啊那包括在遇到那種突發狀況的時候可能還是需要多一些演練的一個一個過程跟劇本啊對那好那謝謝那我還是要接著請教一下部長那在你剛才有提到這個"},{"start":14474.012,"end":14491.104,"text":"來台旅遊的人數有增加在第一季的部分那這就跟觀光署有關了那這個220萬人那你預計在第二季的話大約可以目標達到多少萬人報告委員我們當然希望可以再增加更多目前看起來第一季只有增加3%"},{"start":14492.826,"end":14517.481,"text":"這個部分坦白說我是覺得有點少那我們希望能夠再繼續增加更多那到底預測有多少早上也許多委員一直在問第二劑的話對第二劑這個變數其實蠻大因為現在看到這個關稅戰全球的經貿到底會長什麼樣的狀況其實各國目前都還在評估 審慎評估當中那這個事情對於整個觀光的衝擊我們也都還在觀察所以第二劑的目標數字"},{"start":14518.622,"end":14531.31,"text":"我認為這個變數很大我目前沒有辦法設定一個目標設定一個目標我希望能夠比第一劑再多3%最少所以說希望能夠在220再加個220再3%好那還是勉勵期待"},{"start":14535.493,"end":14557.704,"text":"我在這裡的話本身還是要就是也反映一下其實像剛才許多委員有提到目前在國外行銷觀光的這個亮點的部分他其實還是行銷過去既有的傳統的景點居多那我們在看到日本他們其實有很多的這種宗教的宗教的季節一些宗教的活動他也成為台灣人能夠去日本觀光旅遊的誘因"},{"start":14558.624,"end":14580.958,"text":"像現在台灣很明顯因為部長你也擔任過民意代表對阿公誰料換常會主事阿表哥天上聖母他就開始觀世音菩薩一連串就連我們的中元節在日本就對照起來又變成盂蘭盆祭那所以本席在建議阿看到外國的觀光客來台灣看到這媽祖遶境阿大家是非常的感動阿所以其實在觀光在行銷我們台灣的這個亮點"},{"start":14582.299,"end":14598.172,"text":"其實也要藉由這個宗教的特色宗教的文化能夠把一些觀光客帶進來我覺得這個可以讓其他國外在看到台灣的觀光行銷比較耳目一新又有其他的誘因所以我在想說這個部分是不是可以研擬一些方案能夠讓這樣子來提升誘因"},{"start":14598.792,"end":14617.965,"text":"其實台灣有很多的誘因也有很多好玩的地方但是我們過去或許我們行銷的角度都沒有放在這些地方像委員剛剛所提醒的一些宗教活動在日本他們就做得相當成功那或許台灣也可以參考這樣子的案例我們也來做這樣子的行銷台灣還有很多不一樣的特色那在未來應該都要做出來給大家看得到"},{"start":14618.725,"end":14631.41,"text":"對 因為期許啦因為宗教也可以成為光光又隱智像我們竹山的大師爺文化祭也是確實吸引了全國的人潮那我就想這個部分希望能夠有具體方案再提供給本席辦公室好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":14639.943,"end":14668.624,"text":"林業勤 林業勤 林業勤委員不在等一下黃建斌委員講完我們休息20分讓大家上個洗手間吃個飯因為後面人太多了 都要來所以大家就休等一下那個 等黃建斌委員執行完好 我們現在請楊瓊英委員謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長"},{"start":14669.326,"end":14683.314,"text":"我們來討論在112年的時候11月份他核定了台中國際機場2040年整體的規劃其中清楚的寫到2040年的850萬人次旅運量"},{"start":14694.361,"end":14721.475,"text":"中部地區國際門戶的機場等規劃所以首先本席要請教中進中出我相信您擔任市議員的時候擔任縣議員的時候大家都極力的朝這個方向所以請教中進中出還要幾年這是第一個問題那麼我們台中機場的航廈規劃你是不是有比較具體的一個方案"},{"start":14722.415,"end":14751.642,"text":"因為我們認識到說台中地區跟中部地區的產業我們都非常的希望我們能夠走到東雲或者是高雄或者還要到松山來而且它不只是交通問題它更能夠促進我們整個中台灣的觀光會展我們的製造業還有我們的農產品等等的這一些都是非常的重要都是一個關聯性但是我們看到目前台中機場我們的航線太少了"},{"start":14752.202,"end":14768.177,"text":"我們的航班密度也不足那很難撐起國際的這個門戶在這樣的一個情況之下我們又看到交通部民航局給我們的一個資料他說明了他說台中機場受限於線型的跑道長度"},{"start":14769.117,"end":14796.819,"text":"與空域配置的限制所以目前起降呢那麼有限所以在這樣的情況之下更難吸引到國際的航空公司來進駐而且開拓了這個遠程的這個航線所以請教第一個我們中印增出你們預計大概還要多少年第二個我們要如何的增搬跟開闢讓我們的真正的國際機場可以去展現請說說明"},{"start":14798.48,"end":14809.668,"text":"好 報告委員中進中出現在已經都在中進中出以我自己的旅行的經驗我如果從台中出大概也是量數很少嘛量數的部分這你滿意嗎你是台中人你滿意嗎當然還不滿意當然不滿意 還好剛剛委員在講的航班跟航點目前已經恢復到疫情之前的94%跟79%也就是說航班的部分恢復的數量比較多但是"},{"start":14822.137,"end":14837.163,"text":"我們可以這麼說啦因為過去在兩岸的航線會比較多但現在兩岸航線相對減少所以如果扣除兩岸航線的話我們現在的航班跟航點應該是比疫情之前還要多我們是號稱為國際機場如果部長你這樣回答我們是比較多那我們整個國際機場要怎麼去規劃我在說的是國際的運量對不對我們要怎麼去規劃所以我相信你絕對有前瞻性嘛有有有"},{"start":14849.328,"end":14871.976,"text":"你會滿足剛剛你所說的數字嗎我們繼續努力啦你還好一個繼續努力我想我們在這裡是要好好的去討論怎麼樣可以讓我們的中部地區還有我們的國人在交通方面等都可以更加的變暢尤其在我們台中現在會展中心今年要完成世界國際的這個有人都會到"},{"start":14874.056,"end":14901.127,"text":"這個國際機場對我們來講是非常的重要好就這個事呢我要再請教現在的困境台中到金門的航班的問題那不只有說機位很搶手而且你平常就進不到更不用說假日那這個大家都很清楚很清楚有時候在那邊用物的關係兩天啊幾天啊那擠壓的更多那這樣的一個情況之下請教部長針對於我們整個"},{"start":14902.708,"end":14922.219,"text":"台中到金門的航班嚴重不足的這個情況之下因為供需不平衡了嘛那我們要怎麼處理包委員我們現在整個國內包含跟離島之間的這個飛航的問題有時候是因為我們的運能問題啦我們的運能有點不足這是坦白要這麼說因為根本不足這很事實我們要怎麼解決"},{"start":14923.46,"end":14950.566,"text":"他的需求有這麼多為什麼人家不要呢運能不足對不對我們希望能夠放大機型不過這個要跟我們的國際航空公司大家來溝通跟協調所以你必須把你的基礎建設做好會會會這個會才能夠吸引人家大型的國際的這個這個這個不管是飛機這個座位會多嘛大型的飛機以及國際的這個航空公司願意進駐嘛"},{"start":14952.206,"end":14967.856,"text":"這根本還是要先解決所以台中到金門嚴重不足我相信部長你也了解那要你除了去協調他換大型的這個飛機但是到目前為止還是不夠還是工具差距很大"},{"start":14968.876,"end":14986.201,"text":"所以這個部分必須要再加強你去運作你去討論看我們的工序這麼樣不平衡的時候我們交通部這一邊可以怎麼樣去協助讓我們的民眾可以在交通可以有變長你多的時間可以一個方式你們去討論給本席"},{"start":14987.95,"end":15014.758,"text":"我們這三個月來討論好不好好 三個月給本席說你們要怎麼樣針對台中跟金門的航班嚴重不足的供需不平衡最後一個問題我請教台鐵那你宣布了要平均漲幅是26.8而且要在今年的6月23號開始正式來執行那大家有高度的質疑在目前通膨以及碰到"},{"start":15016.038,"end":15041.757,"text":"這樣子關稅的議題而且產業生存之壓力大家政府地方政府以及中央政府以及產業大家工會大家就要團結作戰在這個時間我們似乎可以看到非常嚴肅的不管是通膨或者是民生會很痛苦那加上了這樣子突如其來的這樣子的因素那你認為"},{"start":15043.718,"end":15067.785,"text":"有沒有考量到要怎麼樣讓我們的社會大眾的負擔能力可以去緩和請教有 報告委員您在提醒的這個我們有考量到尤其您上面所寫的通勤族跟學生族他們所憂慮的事情我們現在交通部有個TPAS只要你有使用TPAS你是完全沒有影響你搭乘台鐵它就是假設是以貝貝基塔來講是一千二這是局部"},{"start":15068.485,"end":15080.523,"text":"也就是說他漲價的部分是由政府來吸收就不會讓一般的民眾受影響像學生族他也是用TPAS通勤族他也是用TPAS這個部分就不會有影響沒有用的人呢"},{"start":15081.579,"end":15104.616,"text":"沒有用的人幫幫委員你用的這些軌道佔多數啊台鐵還有一個常客計畫常客優惠你沒有針對本席的提問如果沒有這個關稅你如果沒有現在關稅嚴肅的議題那你這樣就分攤但是本席給你的功課就是說到目前的狀態連剛剛我們在經濟委員會部長也說他會隨時滾動式的減少我們會讓民眾的影響影響到最低的狀況"},{"start":15111.241,"end":15125.533,"text":"你必須要去討論而且看到給你的樣態是什麼必要的時候要怎麼樣由政府來協助不管是台鐵公司還是我們的通勤組我覺得這非常的重要因為這個時間必須要共體時間提出這個議題謝謝"},{"start":15139.244,"end":15151.316,"text":"謝謝我們請黃建斌委員謝謝主席主席我們也請我們陳部長請部長"},{"start":15164.444,"end":15181.911,"text":"部長好 本席非常珍惜有機會跟您在這邊來做交流謝謝為什麼說會很營銷這個機會因為在這個會期好幾次本席就邀請你到辦公室就是想要跟部長來討論目前我們跟花東居民交通有關的一些議題"},{"start":15183.371,"end":15210.558,"text":"像是我們的花東快還有最近車票漲價的事情可是部長在辦公室一直回應說你都沒時間那我想說不然次長來一下次長也說他都沒時間我想說真的都很忙都沒有時間真的難得有機會可以到交通委員會來質詢就希望能夠當面跟部長來說一些搬一下台東一些鄉親的聲音謝謝委員因為我們也納悶就是看到假日的時候部長都為了大發明旋轉到各地去宣講啊現在都沒時間"},{"start":15212.719,"end":15229.777,"text":"所以所以本席要提醒部長部長我沒有到處去啊委員是否定我提醒否定你這個學習應該是錯的喔部長我們上一次在跟行政院長到台東看災的時候部長你跟本席也聊過說要不然大家有溝通的問題希望我們都可以做得合作嘛對不對當然所以部長我要提醒部長好"},{"start":15230.678,"end":15258.825,"text":"社會交通部長責任維護台東人交通的權益是很重要的一個工作那這邊我想要跟部長說未來以後本市如果召開相關的活動還是想補充跟台東有些重大意義的這些交通議題就是部長如果沒有時間是不是可以請市長也來一下讓我們來正面的來溝通我們來安排謝謝 謝謝部長的承諾好 那我們現在進入今天的重點就是說在禮拜一的時候我們台股創下史上大跌幅的一天"},{"start":15259.765,"end":15285.614,"text":"那天就有一個朋友說 每天都落一支旗他就把台鐵車票拿出來說 台鐵漲了26%你看在這樣的情況之下整個經濟都已經很低迷的時候台鐵漲價對台灣民眾都是雪上加霜特別台東未來台東漲價之後 台北台東來回漲了300塊這個本來交通弱勢的台東就是雪上加霜對台東人都情何以堪"},{"start":15286.474,"end":15299.756,"text":"那我們這些東西價錢跟西部一樣但是我們的交通的品質其實又還沒有達到跟西部一樣的狀況西部有高鐵、有高速公路、有台鐵、台灣山頂我們台南只有一條"},{"start":15300.93,"end":15326.409,"text":"台九縣以及火車那我們印象還深刻0403強振之後接著連接的幾個強台整個東部的交通也好觀光也好產業也好都非常非常的低迷也還沒有完全復原喔那我們今年中秋七明年假我們的住房率那個業者說甚至不到五成喔不到五成那"},{"start":15327.802,"end":15344.678,"text":"相對於在台東整個交通跟觀光還在復原的階段裡面那本席去年在立法院兩度提案來要求中央來動漲台鐵東部的票價那後來交通部也承諾在春節之前不會漲沒想到我們二月的時候台鐵就宣布要漲價"},{"start":15345.979,"end":15371.046,"text":"那第一時間我們本席也跟部裡面提出三個要求第一個就是中央應該要信守承諾遵守承諾在災害災損未完全之前考慮東部交通的特殊性及困境動漲東部的票價第二個是提供我們花東居民找鳥實名制的優惠減少我們台東居民返鄉的成本第三個當然是增加我們南回鐵路的班次能夠提供"},{"start":15371.966,"end":15386.744,"text":"往反東部的替代的選擇那減少可以促進我們觀光的這個人潮那後來在3月份的上旬我跟交通部跟台鐵的討論就是說如果未來真的台鐵必須要漲價"},{"start":15387.745,"end":15408.795,"text":"是不是可以由花東基金的部分來補貼居民三層的這個票價作為抗漲的方案那台鐵董事長這邊也認為說這個方向其實有機會來做的因為我們481的花東基金本來就是它既有的財源是花東基金那這個基金成立的目的就是希望能夠提升花東居民的這個福祉我想這個絕對符合這個目的的使用性"},{"start":15410.816,"end":15425.066,"text":"另外在3月份的時候我也在經濟委員會當面跟我們那個國發會主委來請教就是說我們能不能夠比照離島條例裡面的方式補助三成的票價給我們的居民那透過發動基金的部分來補助"},{"start":15426.561,"end":15442.512,"text":"我們的車票國發會的主委也正面的來回應說如果在符合條件下願意來支持在這裡我要具體的請教我們保證不管是台鐵國發會都覺得這方向是可行的那未來我想不論中央或是縣府提案我們都可以後續來做討論重點是中央"},{"start":15446.387,"end":15464.905,"text":"會不會來支持中央這個不能再把台東當作是二等居民我想我們讓我們能夠享受實質的評價這個我們在質詢的時候都跟部長談過嘛交通真的要平權我們要落實它嘛所以部長你願不願意支持花東基金來補貼東部居民三層台鐵票價這部分"},{"start":15465.806,"end":15491.294,"text":"花東基金是國發會那委員剛剛也有說有跟國發會主委說過啦但是花東基金這不是我們管的但我們自己能做的是什麼我們現在正在跟台鐵正在研議就是說花東的鄉親的彈性票價的優惠方案如果我們是住在那個地方然後有加入他們的會員台鐵的會員因為他們有個常客優惠啦兩個人加在一起的話"},{"start":15492.014,"end":15512.226,"text":"提供多一些的優惠給花東的鄉親讓花東鄉親的這個返鄉的這個成本可以降低委員您剛剛在提醒了其實我們都有注意到在東部地區確實我們是以台鐵為主以鐵路為主然後還有一個台九線那他們的這個運具的選擇相對上少啦所以能夠支持花東的鄉親我們一定會盡量來努力"},{"start":15512.526,"end":15521.545,"text":"所以這個方案如果說國發會這邊支持那交部這邊也願意來支持最後要決定的是國發會啦所以國發會支持我們我們沒有不支持的道理所以也支持也在問齁"},{"start":15523.351,"end":15547.548,"text":"也是會支持啦對不對部長他們如果願意支持當然我們沒有反對的道理謝謝部長領導謝謝部長那最後我就用一點時間我想要再為花東快來請命我們上個月媒體報導花東快因為中央認為經濟效益差被推薦那後來交通部有說有請這個公務局重新做這個修正再送那據本席的瞭解我們公務局在4月2號就已經完成這個修正重新送件"},{"start":15548.348,"end":15566.894,"text":"那部長還記得我們去年7月立法院通過的主決議清楚的寫下就是說交通部要儘速推動花東快速公路興建可行性評估於113年8月份完成期末報告我們現在已經是84年的四月份我們已經過半年多囉"},{"start":15567.794,"end":15585.099,"text":"那這個部分交通部是不是能夠務必來加速我想要請教部長說那目前我們這個評估報告進度是怎麼樣什麼時候會完成確實他效益目前看起來是不足啦而且您在台東也應該相當清楚我們現在正在進行這個安全景觀大道的這個拓寬的工程"},{"start":15585.519,"end":15603.61,"text":"你也相當清楚也就是說未來整體的交通的運量的量能我們目前正在用工程的方法要提高那另外大家一直在希望尤其是委員在講的這個花中快的部分確實目前看起來它的可行的方案還沒有到很可行我們目前正在討論如果假使用分段來討論或許就有機會"},{"start":15607.992,"end":15631.018,"text":"那什麼時候進度我們評估報告是什麼時候可以來完成因為這個很多台東鄉親、花東鄉親都很關心的你評估的時間大家可以寫給大家鄉親知道評估的時間喔對 因為安全性評估這部分是主決意是說要在去年8月就要完成現在已經是今年114年已經到4月已經過半年多了可是現在評估報告都還沒出來報告委員"},{"start":15632.625,"end":15657.12,"text":"以現在那個效益不高的狀況底下,如果現在要立刻出報告,那就是不可行所以我們現在希望把它找可行的方案出來,所以需要一些時間你這樣說我緊張,我聽說要不可以做,我怕中了,如果不行的話現在的效益是真的不是不足啊,真的是不足,如果你要以現在來討論的話,那真的就是可能不可行"},{"start":15657.62,"end":15671.497,"text":"但我們現在交通部正在努力找有沒有哪一段是可行的方案我們想辦法把它用出來所以需要一些時間謝謝部長部長那個主席都站起來了齁我用了一點點時間那還是最後還是要再請交通部這邊要盡快的來做這些的評估"},{"start":15673.719,"end":15693.533,"text":"因為花東快速道路是整個台東往北很重要的一個道路那未來如果花東快完成南回的方向也改變這才能夠有效的打通台東交通的任督而邁這部分再請部長我們一起為後山的鄉親來一起努力好 我們來努力感謝博定 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":15702.368,"end":15709.836,"text":"謝謝大家辛苦後面還不少人所以我們就先休息20分大家先休息一下等一下再開會謝謝"},{"start":15724.828,"end":15727.009,"text":"我去後面我去後面"},{"start":15752.233,"end":15753.834,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物。"},{"start":15777.362,"end":15779.543,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":15800.333,"end":15803.356,"text":"吃了,我現在就是我下面的目的"},{"start":15815.57,"end":15817.492,"text":"會啊 早上時候來吧 當然是快10點半10點半就來吃"},{"start":15833.831,"end":15850.896,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":15850.896,"end":15850.916,"text":"對,謝謝啊。"},{"start":15876.481,"end":15881.382,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":15906.428,"end":15909.529,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":15920.112,"end":15920.553,"text":"有在有時間嗎"},{"start":15944.873,"end":15944.914,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":15956.903,"end":15957.224,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":15977.645,"end":15977.845,"text":"啊啊啊"},{"start":16006.13,"end":16006.17,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":16016.62,"end":16021.946,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳,例如餐廳中心餐廳、餐廳中心餐廳、餐廳中心餐廳。"},{"start":16036.583,"end":16037.043,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳"},{"start":16055.464,"end":16058.068,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":16070.224,"end":16071.585,"text":"哦哦哦哦哦哦"},{"start":16093.946,"end":16101.032,"text":"那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,那裡有個老駕駛員在這裏,"},{"start":16120.766,"end":16121.126,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":16143.824,"end":16144.205,"text":"好,我們來看看"},{"start":16173.627,"end":16173.647,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":16204.744,"end":16217.048,"text":"剪刀"},{"start":16220.269,"end":16221.51,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":16248.07,"end":16249.11,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":16264.996,"end":16265.016,"text":"好"},{"start":16285.669,"end":16286.429,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":16303.932,"end":16304.772,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":16330.069,"end":16332.651,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":16349.425,"end":16355.309,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":16383.089,"end":16383.589,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":16400.282,"end":16422.722,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":16426.351,"end":16429.813,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":16464.342,"end":16464.362,"text":"嗯"},{"start":16467.284,"end":16477.19,"text":"你還用新的AI去管理你還用新的AI去管理你還用新的AI去管理你還用新的AI去管理你還用新的AI去管理"},{"start":16495.343,"end":16497.745,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":16520.717,"end":16520.737,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":16544.994,"end":16545.494,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":17338.652,"end":17355.787,"text":"現在開始開會 我們請莊瑞雄委員謝謝主席 有請我們交通部陳世凱陳部長請部長還有我們觀光署周永輝州署長署長"},{"start":17361.001,"end":17378.449,"text":"部長 署長 吳安我想幾個問題來請教那去年的一場大地震花蓮的一個地震還有接下來幾次的一個颱風讓花東地區很多重要的觀光景點其實都受到了重創"},{"start":17379.589,"end":17408.589,"text":"像譬如說本席曾經帶隊去考察過的撒卡當步道三月村這條路都毀掉了狀況真的是慘不忍睹這署長部長應該都很清楚了那原本這個國旅團還有遊覽車排隊進去這種盛況現在人潮幾乎其實是已經斷路了那當地的觀光業者幾乎也快撐不下去了不過我在這個地方也要藉這個機會感謝部長跟署長就去年因為這個地震完以後"},{"start":17409.409,"end":17432.914,"text":"其實不是只有花蓮產花蓮一產的話台東跟著產那所以台東一些民宿業者還有觀光業者那個時候跟部長跟署長建議也說我們也去比照花蓮然後也對業者做一些試圖的一個補貼真的及時於在這個地方特別提出感謝但是我想請教的就是說我們政府除了補貼以外剛剛有什麼看了一個聖誕有什麼妙方沒有"},{"start":17439.496,"end":17457.255,"text":"本席認為我們交通部或者觀光署我們其實更應該要主動出擊真的要去主動出擊去規劃或者說去打造新的觀光的一個據點讓更多人還有更有理由去走進花東我來舉個例子"},{"start":17459.757,"end":17481.802,"text":"就是說我們台東卑南鄉就是山里的一個舊隧道就是這樣的一個非常有潛力的一個地方就卑南鄉我們在2021年的時候就列為觀光經典的一個小鎮那個地方擁有舊鐵道、車站遺址還有原民文化、自然生態等豐沛的觀光的一個資源"},{"start":17483.422,"end":17495.55,"text":"那我在這個地方藉這個機會啊也來為台東這個鄉親來請命啦就是說就像柏定王看能不能這個部份喔可以這樣喔高通坡觀光署這裡喔我們來做一個規劃我記得"},{"start":17498.712,"end":17517.604,"text":"你看你的前任的部長林佳龍部長我看政府是延續一體的嘛剛才我們補充大英國的事情我看阿扁這樣做一定是你若有專業去做一個評估嘛林部長任內內喊出觀光轉型跟地方創生這樣的一個願景我相信這個理念"},{"start":17518.649,"end":17540.24,"text":"任何人部長來我相信大家都覺得是很通的啦但是呢這個提出這樣的一個概念他倒也不是說只看網紅的景點還要看到原鄉偏鄉這些比較沒有被注意到的地方當時交通部底下的縱管處也做了不少的工作譬如說他去做的可行性評估地質調查還有生態的一個調查這些都做了"},{"start":17540.72,"end":17552.709,"text":"那做出來以後知道說一號到七號這個地方就變成地質比較敏感加上這個因為地震加上地質敏感然後還有蝙蝠這樣的一個棲地不適合再去做大規模的開發這個"},{"start":17554.861,"end":17563.933,"text":"在地的民眾也都了解也都尊重這樣的一個專業可是呢 我要請教部長的就是說我們剛才說什麼聖誕廟方就是什麼替代方案譬如說我們知道山里車站這個地方這是一個祕境那我們怎麼樣用什麼樣的"},{"start":17572.904,"end":17593.764,"text":"的方式去開發它讓增加一個更多為台東增加更多觀光的一個誘因啊我們常常說山不轉人就轉啊地方民眾也不是不講理啊也不叫你開山找隧道啊大家也是認為該保育就要保育啊尊重專業啊尊重你們啊所以本席在這個前提之下要來"},{"start":17594.444,"end":17614.185,"text":"跟部長來做一個建議就是說三里舊隧道我們如果沒辦法進一步去開放是不是研議替代方案譬如說你鐵馬的驛站還有主街道的整理還有導覽路線的一個設計等等這一些我們可不可以先來做博丁我覺得你們已經幾個月了"},{"start":17616.206,"end":17641.879,"text":"部長可不可以具體聲明報告委員您這個建議非常好山里舊隧道其實有它的觀光價值在但是本身不一定有辦法再進一步的開發一些生態上的限制還有地質上的限制不過委員在建議的這個替代方案我覺得觀光署應該好好做研究包含鐵馬驛站的部分還有主街道的整理還有導覽路線等等的設計我們在山里的周邊把整個觀光的配套把它做起來"},{"start":17642.819,"end":17657.818,"text":"即便是他那個隧道沒有進一步的開發他的整體的觀光價值還是可以顯現所以委員您今天交代我們就趕快來做這方面的研究我們就朝這個方向下去做謝謝部長先給你感謝我為什麼這樣講呢就是說其實我們也很清楚永續啊"},{"start":17659.52,"end":17675.996,"text":"低碳啊深度的體驗啊大家朗朗上口啊那也確實是我們那個交通部還有觀光署你們應該是責無旁貸有這麼好的一個地方的話我們主動去挖掘讓我們在東部這個地方啊"},{"start":17676.576,"end":17685.159,"text":"不要因為一場地震把整個觀光夢全部給震碎掉了所以我謝謝部長這樣的一個承諾我必須要特別提出來就是說我們台東其實具有豐富的人文景觀跟有地方的故事還有原民文化非常適合去做一個體驗不然我們一直在說地方創生我去把它看看我16個行政區裡面我如果在中古縣 海岸縣各個原民的地方看一看的話"},{"start":17704.986,"end":17733.214,"text":"很多地方到最後你都必須要去講到你們提出來就是說好啦 體驗啦 體驗啦那這麼好的地方政府如果沒有去好好規劃的話我覺得實在是太可惜啦那我相信經過我們觀光署如果說大力去做一個規劃的話它一定是非常有吸引力的一個地方啊所以我再提醒一次就是說現在的花東地區的觀光部長跟署長都非常清楚啦真的是慘啦"},{"start":17734.614,"end":17757.675,"text":"那怎麼樣帶入新的一個元素真的是要再搭一個新的一個舞台要帶給民眾啊這樣的一個希望啦交通部真的是有責任而且我這樣提出來以後不是只有你們有責任我認為你們本來就有能力本來就有能力啊那有能力但是我要說的就是說這裡有魅力有潛力的地方部長剛剛雖然答應啦但那個時間點啦"},{"start":17760.896,"end":17766.119,"text":"你們創古厝你們真的有去做多少工作時間點可不可以加速我們是不是今年就開始來啟動規劃好不好我意思是說比較積極的因為你這個山梨線改線通車這個十幾年了擺在那個地方你說山梨也不能再等啦台東真的也不能再等啦那這個如果我們交通部或者觀光署我們有更積極的一個態度的話"},{"start":17787.313,"end":17797.1,"text":"我覺得馬上可以啟動我們今年就來啟動這個規劃我們現在就來啟動要拜託觀光署跟台鐵我們兩邊一起來合作把山里這個地方好好規劃好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝我們台鐵感謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":17815.339,"end":17817.081,"text":"謝謝 我們請盧先生議員主席有請部長請部長"},{"start":17835.594,"end":17851.002,"text":"今天可能就一個問題來跟你就教就是我有看到就是黨風玻璃就是他有公告說大概在六月還是今年年底的時候要有一個法規或者是說法治化那我希望知道你的想法"},{"start":17853.194,"end":17876.465,"text":"是 報告委員過去從來沒有管過這件事情交通部從過去到現在沒有管過這件事情那也確實我們發現說有許多的車輛它的這個隔熱紙貼得太過黑那造成晚上在駕車的時候確實是有一些危險的那我們也希望說未來我們希望能夠讓民眾的這個隔熱紙有一定的規範例如說前檔應該多少前側應該多少這個是針對駕駛"},{"start":17880.627,"end":17905.437,"text":"我大概有看到一些數據那我看到了70%那70%你這個是怎麼來的報告員這個目前都還在討論當中OK我希望你能夠在就是說要進入法治化的時候你可以考量眼科醫師的建議好不好好沒有問題這個需要的我大概按照我的理解來看就是說你的前場剝離是70%可是你知道美國是怎麼做的嗎"},{"start":17906.477,"end":17918.997,"text":"委員請指教就是說它其實它的前檔玻璃不是指全部Windseal不是它是只有那個眉毛的部分也就是4到6英寸是70%其實前面是不能加"},{"start":17920.134,"end":17943.331,"text":"隔日子的那因為如果你就一個行人來說我必須看到駕駛人員不再注意我沒錯對啊我裡面的人說不定沒有看到我那大家的互相的一個所謂的互相的一個戒心那常常發生車禍或者是這個時間點大概都是婚案的時候也就是大概早上4點到6點或者是下午下班時間"},{"start":17944.432,"end":17970.51,"text":"那你就知道說其實彎線對開車來講是非常重要那美國會定70%的原因他是指前那個眉毛的部分喔他是因為他的路又大又寬沒有那麼多車子啊可是我們台灣是車子非常多行為非常多所以我在我在想這個percent的部分你還是要去考慮進去或者說應該是禁止是說前檔這邊只能裝眉毛其他的部分我是覺得說大家都可以有自己的意見"},{"start":17971.07,"end":17999.737,"text":"報委員這個部分各國的案例我們都會拿來做參考也會參考您在所說的美國的部分那另外也要考慮幾件事第一台灣的氣候我們是東南亞國家所以台灣的氣候我們有考量在內第二因為過去大家都貼了很多的隔熱紙而且貼的比較黑我們不要造成民眾的負擔的狀況底下來推行這個政策那第三就是說我們要讓這個廠商有辦法提供我們未來要去管制的這樣子的隔熱紙"},{"start":18000.797,"end":18020.727,"text":"所以廠商的溝通也是很重要的無論它的材質它的顏色這些應該都要考量進去那美國它也有說其實可以擋全部的隔熱紙的它是有一些例外的可是它必須取得醫師的證明說它不能曬到太陽所以這些人也要被考慮進去可以嗎了解"},{"start":18021.647,"end":18031.117,"text":"那最後因為我是來自原住民地區還是要跟你來討論一下蘭嶼機場的事情蘭嶼機場從大概2019嘛2019就開始在弄就9億9億的錢花下去到現在飛機還是常常停飛那後來2023年又說又再補助12億結果還是"},{"start":18043.809,"end":18054.196,"text":"沒有看到願景他們的願景是希望看到說至少可以看到ATR飛機能夠飛到蘭嶼現在是那個19人坐的不知道部長你有沒有坐過"},{"start":18055.516,"end":18079.109,"text":"我過去蘭嶼的時候不是坐19人座的這個如果你有坐過19人座的話你一定不太敢再坐第二次那我的意思是說它是他們日常生活必須要用的一個飛機我覺得不能虧待蘭嶼應該蘭嶼他應該要跟澎湖、金門、馬祖一樣都有ATR至少那個40幾人座的那個至少讓大家覺得說坐起來比較安心可是你花了這麼多錢9.1、12.1過去了"},{"start":18081.19,"end":18110.019,"text":"還是常常停飛啊你你覺得你你也想幫你再想這個問題嗎報告委員蘭嶼有他特殊的天候啦你也應該很清楚他的天候的狀況這個跟飛航有絕對的關係好然後再來就是跑道的長度也一定會影響到他能夠停的什麼樣的飛機好那這個部分其實民航局做了很多的改善我們第一要務是希望他能夠安全第一要務是安全第二才去思考運量他那個德安航空到期以後"},{"start":18110.899,"end":18137.734,"text":"簽約到期後下次的簽約的飛機能不能再大一點因為不是還是這個19人座局長回答好不好向委員報告剛剛有提到講的比較大的一個飛機是那個ATR42600的那個是42人座不過他所需要的跑道也要比較長那他抗側風的能力其實跟現在的這個機型是一樣的就是每小時不能超過25公里也就是說還是不能期待他未來有這種飛機嗎"},{"start":18139.375,"end":18155.246,"text":"永遠都沒有辦法期待嗎不是 我是說現行來講那至於下一次的應該是在因為這個約會到119年那我們會在那個之前再來看看當時市面上再來看看我們只是要推動觀光啦希望這部分能夠考量 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝請鄭天才委員"},{"start":18179.951,"end":18201.042,"text":"好 召委 主席 各位委員 請部長請部長部長好 今天的議題來台旅客這個部分你的報告裡面也特別提到這個"},{"start":18204.698,"end":18218.627,"text":"113比這個疫情之前108來的有恢復但是我們如果從整體來看我們就看108好了108這個好這張108整個總數來台的旅客的總數"},{"start":18231.894,"end":18258.189,"text":"跟到113年的總數的落差就少了少了這麼多千萬、十萬、百萬、四百萬四百萬而這少了四百萬這樣的一個情形之下減少最多的就是中國大陸然後其次就是日本也少很多日本"},{"start":18260.883,"end":18277.512,"text":"香港、澳門、亞洲所以這樣的一個數字這個當然很重要的怎麼樣讓這些原來會來的那個回復這是最重要當然"},{"start":18279.097,"end":18307.737,"text":"這日本為什麼會減少有知道原因嗎報告委員這兩年啦日幣的匯率比較不好那造成日本人其實他們出國的意願降低了非常多所以日本人比較不太出國玩但我們前年跟去年相比我們去年的這個日課的成長率達到百分之四十幾比前年的話這個中國大陸的部分我就不多說了這個你也很清楚"},{"start":18310.104,"end":18338.505,"text":"這個事實上他們也願意這群馬一開始講金馬嘛後來這個福建嘛福建人要過來所以這個部分這個部長我是建議部長去協調陸委會陸委會然後行政院院長當然要請他支持還是要溝通這個兩岸能夠交流"},{"start":18339.628,"end":18351.688,"text":"才能夠更和平兩岸才能夠更和平另外就是說花蓮台東的交通花東第七發展條例"},{"start":18353.192,"end":18372.379,"text":"規定得很清楚為改善花東地區對外運輸服務滿足花東地區基民聯外交通及產業發展的需求交通部應提高鐵路運輸能量及縮短行車時間並提升公路安全性及可靠性"},{"start":18374.606,"end":18400.303,"text":"我們行政院的施政方針優化環島鐵路網當然包含東部的鐵路優化東部公路的交通網但是很重要的這個0403的地震所造成的北回線院長都去了部長更是去了很多次這個"},{"start":18403.715,"end":18408.704,"text":"台鐵也提出了這個台鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫64.1億元"},{"start":18412.985,"end":18440.456,"text":"這個部分交通部什麼時候可以送到行政院報告委員這個部分計畫正在做那交通部對於這樣子的計畫應該也都是很支持這個部分是一定得做的那我們計畫什麼時候可以提出來是不是請台鐵這邊報告委員因為這個計畫按程序先經過我們董事會現在董事會已經討論通過了我們現在已經呈報到交通部我知道你們董事會通過而且"},{"start":18441.836,"end":18465.056,"text":"也曾經送過又退回去又送了嘛對對現在已經修正過了現在再提到江部我們會盡快跟江部主動來做聯繫讓這個計畫我們這邊如果審查完成之後就會盡快來送我知道我上次就禮拜一我就問過台鐵就已經送了其實我一直都在追蹤這個案子部分"},{"start":18466.237,"end":18491.755,"text":"請交通部能夠盡快趕快核定要送行政院當然也要協調行政院趕快核定因為這個蘇花安我諮詢過很多次108年12月20號可行性研究行政院核定這個可行性研究過期蘇花改兩年就核定這個計畫現在五年多了"},{"start":18496.106,"end":18517.136,"text":"從可行性研究核定之後到現在已經五年多了這個行政院還沒有核定所以這個問題你們也已經送去了本席也一直行文給行政院一直協調給行政院也要請部長要跟院長報告趕快核定最後"},{"start":18523.103,"end":18544.4,"text":"票價的部分我在這邊也值了上上禮拜也值所以這個部分這個花東的票價整個台鐵的6月23號要開始了這個部分尤其是台北到花蓮調漲的幅度32.51%比這個"},{"start":18551.533,"end":18563.762,"text":"平均條幅26.8%真的是很高而事實上花蓮車站在過去整個台鐵的過去西部是虧損的就是靠花蓮車站"},{"start":18577.27,"end":18581.172,"text":"這個一直是賺錢的所以這個部分也必須去考量這個你們說要"},{"start":18584.369,"end":18605.928,"text":"有一個怎麼樣的優惠報告委員我們會討論優惠方案一方面是包含花東的鄉親居住在那邊的居民他們的優惠方案我們正在討論另外也鼓勵花東的鄉親可以加入台鐵的常客優惠方案他們有個常客優惠方案如果加入的話他也會打折"},{"start":18606.768,"end":18631.19,"text":"所以整體來說的話影響我們會盡量讓它降低這是4月7號的新聞當然我那天也有質詢你說要延役那什麼時候可以完成延役報告委員其實623還沒到啦真正的漲價還沒到所以623之前我們就可以延役完成好還是要提早好不好好我們盡快我們提早好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":18644.099,"end":18645.579,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":18666.077,"end":18666.306,"text":"委員好"},{"start":18666.957,"end":18694.223,"text":"部長好 部長你有去過阿里山嗎去過那你就任之後有再上去過嗎沒有 一直想要去好 那希望下次你可以排個時間再去到訪阿里山因為它被紐約時報評選為世界排名第19名值得造訪的地方這是台灣之光還超越了日本但是我要請你看一個數據這個讓人家看起來覺得很心酸我們的這個台灣之光"},{"start":18696.363,"end":18703.19,"text":"世界應該要來造訪的據點 結果他的旅客數從10年前有276萬現在到113年下降到只有89萬9千多"},{"start":18712.031,"end":18727.806,"text":"這個組組少了180萬我覺得這個對於一個我們台灣國際知名的觀光景點來講這個人數少的太多你知不知道這個下降的幅度這麼大的原因是什麼少了哪一個國家的觀光客"},{"start":18729.155,"end":18741.981,"text":"報告委員他有一段時間是因為他那個鐵路停駛所以他下降的速度是相當的快那之後慢慢在恢復當中那您在說的那個國家我是不曉得但我猜委員要講的應該是對岸"},{"start":18744.702,"end":18772.925,"text":"應該是因為過去你如果比較10年前跟10年後10年前當時台灣我們的旅遊人數可以破千萬那這個對岸大概貢獻了大概300多萬所以就是少了它像這個去年整個我們雖然要一直提振其他國家來的觀光但是呢少了入客之後這是不爭的事實足足也是少掉了300萬所以你的千萬目標沒有辦法達成你的700加300大概就是可以破"},{"start":18773.385,"end":18783.62,"text":"1000萬那我只是讓部長可以看到就是說雖然兩岸現在有一些政治因素的干擾但是我們可以賺人民幣應該不是罪過吧"},{"start":18784.502,"end":18814.202,"text":"人民幣有罪嗎沒有啊沒罪沒罪嘛對不對那所以在入客開放這個部分特別是現在整個關稅高關稅的議題對大家的經濟衝擊很大那觀光是無煙囪的工業所以他其實是可以為我們現在就是普遍包括未來這個服務業都會大受影響如果說我們有辦法可以打一劑強心針在這個過程當中去穩住我們的觀光客的人數那這一個方向"},{"start":18814.782,"end":18841.085,"text":"我不曉得為什麼你們要一直堅持反對到現在應該不是你的問題交通部沒有反對過交通部都沒有反對嘛那是陸委會一直在擋啊也不是啦其實是兩岸應該要有序的去溝通這件事情那目前設定就是小兩會因為過去也是透過小兩會在溝通那目前台灣的小兩會我所知道的是我們已經跟對岸表達想要溝通的意願但是對岸目前還沒回覆我們"},{"start":18841.701,"end":18861.718,"text":"那有一種情況是一定要透過小兩會嗎如果對岸他想要組團我們就讓他來了呢就讓第一個團就開始成型然後事後我們再回過頭針對兩岸硬要協商的議題再慢慢談不行嗎因為方法有很多種但是當你只堅持只能這樣的時候路就走不通啊"},{"start":18862.679,"end":18883.638,"text":"其實方法很多種啊是看我們要不要釋放出彈性而已啊但是報告委員過去陸客來台的人數很多不過我們也看到了一些問題當然啊現在的問題是很少也產生的問題啊是也產生的問題但我們也顧慮的到一件事就是說他們的旅客來台灣也必須要安全所以很多的安全問題包含保險的問題我們兩岸要先談好"},{"start":18884.558,"end":18900.644,"text":"但是這個坦白講部長我們兩岸的溝通交流不是說首次啦都已經有經驗了所以其實那個所謂的問題其實也不是什麼大問題這個其實大家都知道我只是要提醒說當日本當新加坡"},{"start":18901.344,"end":18926.144,"text":"他們其實是一直持續的開放的時候我們去阻擋路客他們就往日本跑往新加坡跑賺的是他們的錢那我們這邊就白白損失我們家一向是很可憐我們想多賣一點茶葉給路客沒有辦法我們想多賣一點伴手禮沒有辦法阿里山的觀光我們希望有人可以來提振但是最喜歡去阿里山的坦白講是路客因為他們在課本裡面都有教阿里山"},{"start":18926.684,"end":18954.213,"text":"所以他們嚮往要去阿里山但是現在你看竹竹少掉這麼多人對阿里山的觀光來講的確是衝擊我也知道其實你不是全職的單位啦這個是更上層的國安單位他們的意見會主導這整個政策只是我希望說交通部你可以站在你們交通部的立場去思考多開放這個旅客來台對我們是越有利越開放也是越安全我是贊成這樣的一個思維"},{"start":18954.893,"end":18979.998,"text":"另外一個最後我想要跟這個部長討論的是既然嘉義縣這個阿里山是國際知名地標那從高鐵到這個進到阿里山的他相關的這個鐵道軌道的建設其實很重要那最近嘉義市市長黃明慧市長一直在提一個議題就是嘉義的輕軌一直是被排除那這個部分呢這個這個表你看得很清楚就是說"},{"start":18980.598,"end":19000.809,"text":"在整個高鐵的連外軌道系統現在是獨落嘉義嘉義是沒有到現在沒有啟動但是他的那個所有的廊道都已經規劃了那這個部分問題要怎麼解部長報告委員不是沒有規劃現在我們也有補助了一筆款項給地方政府也就是嘉義市政府做可行性的評估"},{"start":19001.829,"end":19019.818,"text":"他的評估的結論裡面沒有去提到一點所有的捷運系統基本上都有中央跟地方負擔的金額但是嘉義市政府並沒有提出來中央跟負擔的金額我們需要他提這個部分才有辦法再往前推進這個問題不在交通部這個問題其實嘉義市政府要趕快把這個東西提出來"},{"start":19021.038,"end":19040.923,"text":"那因為其實過去你可以看到有關於連外軌道系統交通部都是主政單位這件事情我覺得大家不要只是公文的往返我前幾天才遇到黃明慧市長他又當面跟我提了一件這件事情那我是不是可以請這個部長因為中央部會主管機關你們的高度還是比較高"},{"start":19041.363,"end":19065.735,"text":"是不是你們可以邀集嘉義縣市政府針對這件事情大家可以有一個面對面的討論就是說到底我們現在不要卡就卡在這邊事實上因為嘉義縣市他們共同擁有這個阿里山又是我們對外的台灣之光我覺得把它的所有的這些軌道弄好然後交通更便利對我們提振我們的觀光其實是更有效益的我是不是可以請部長你由交通部來召開一個會議"},{"start":19068.956,"end":19084.672,"text":"就邀請嘉義縣市就是他們的首長大家坐下來針對這個議題大家是不是可以面對面的好好談一談你們現在都是公文王範沒有面對面你沒有跟那個黃市長好好的坐下來談過這件事吧"},{"start":19085.584,"end":19101.02,"text":"沒有還沒有那因為你是部長嘛你是中央部會主管機關是不是您可以約這個黃市長還有約翁章良縣長大家坐下來針對這件事情接下來到底可以怎麼樣的處理大家面對面溝通一下談一下可以嗎"},{"start":19101.48,"end":19120.288,"text":"我們再來安排好啊好不好那就拜託部長我覺得這件事情是關乎整個嘉義的發展就不要只是因為說這個經費要怎麼分攤然後就停留在公文的階段好不好我們一起把這件事情促成然後讓整個嘉義縣整個阿里山的觀光發展未來也會更好好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝"},{"start":19134.192,"end":19148.505,"text":"鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在蔡宇宇 蔡宇宇 蔡宇宇委員不在我們請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":19166.368,"end":19166.55,"text":"趙老闆請部長請部長"},{"start":19176.708,"end":19197.753,"text":"部長好部長我看台鐵他近年是非常積極的去推動我們的觀光列車的這個政策那明日號是深入東部那蘭比解憂號是行駛南回那黃島之心就是很掛全台那連中部中部的沿海還有短暫的開行這個叫海豐號"},{"start":19199.093,"end":19213.828,"text":"那我想請教一下請問有沒有就嘉義西部的幹線就是可不可以想說就啟動一下這一種觀光鐵道的路線評估這方面的資訊可不可以分享一下可以這個部分沒有問題包括委員其實今天也有別的委員問過同樣的問題我想"},{"start":19215.39,"end":19242.595,"text":"大概是台鐵的這個觀光列車做得非常好大家一直希望能夠爭取那我們的這個明日號在整個西部走廊的這個規劃也已經規劃出來那我們是不是請那個總經理來回應一下請總經理回應一下跟委員報告我們現在明日號有東部路線跟西部路線那現在目前規劃的西部路線會特別把嘉義的阿里山地區還有台南地區都會整個納到我們的行程規劃裡面"},{"start":19243.675,"end":19270.969,"text":"非常好但是其實我們嘉義除了阿里山阿里山當然有生鐵的系統在那真的是前陣子我有跟總統一起上去那真的是它的觀光的列車得到國內外都是很多的好評那是值得我們去效仿包括整體的視覺設計 藝術設計還有整個文化的底蘊都有在裡面那我們是希望說嘉義縣經過嘉義的時候除了我們既有的阿里山它當然是一個很棒的景點"},{"start":19271.989,"end":19300.239,"text":"也要把我們的平原區特別是包含我們大林啊包含我們民雄啊這些都是平原區他們有一些特殊的這些地景地貌以及他們本來的這些人文的這個地景還有藝術這些文化的這些底蘊都可以把它包括進去那大林跟民雄也是一個重要的事項其實我們的主題可以非常多元它當然是我們有阿里山的話當然有生田那當然就是以森林文化這個歷史傳承的記憶但是我們也有農業農業的文化"},{"start":19302.08,"end":19330.627,"text":"還有這個親子旅遊為主題的這些列車我覺得他可以做的方向蠻多的不知道總經理會不會做這方面的來考量一下委員說的說的這個意見我們都很認同就是說嘉義縣也有很多地方比如說南進唐場那這些都是地方很有特色的一些地點我們現在目前也是在推車站結合地方創生那我們希望也可以透過這個明日號等觀光列車的行駛把它做一個串聯"},{"start":19331.187,"end":19356.262,"text":"像比方說我們民雄的這個車站那旁邊就有一群日式的建築等於說他過去他就是有他的歷史底蘊在這些都可以把他納入整體的去規劃不知道總經理可不可以把這個課題帶回去跟這個員工們來討論一下好我們這個課題我們會帶回去也跟我們的承辦的旅行社一起來共同討論怎麼樣設計出那個套裝的旅程謝謝那另外部長我想要"},{"start":19357.162,"end":19381.957,"text":"再質詢另外一個跟我們的國家的長遠的外交需求就有一點關聯那之前我們在院會的時候我有質詢過就是說台灣跟這個美國的關係是日漸緊密那未來我們遇到了許多挑戰包含關稅的挑戰都需要派我方的談判人員去美方跟他們交涉去美國那"},{"start":19383.178,"end":19399.88,"text":"直航會讓我們的外交人員 經貿談判人員能夠更快速有效的把我們的狀況來去做傳遞不知道部長有沒有考量跟華航來去舊華府的航向意願做一個重新的評估"},{"start":19400.911,"end":19425.889,"text":"是委員您在提到的這個是我們政策上可能有需要不一定是只有考量這個市場需求不是只有考量市場需求的部分那我們會跟華航這邊來討論看有沒有這樣的可能性這個兩方面都要配合啦一方面是我們要有國籍的航空公司願意飛那另外一方面是華府那邊的機場我們可以過得去他們也願意讓我們過去這個部分兩個部分我們都會來溝通"},{"start":19426.758,"end":19454.215,"text":"我是希望這個部分是更加的以政策為導向那不是只有市場為導向其實過去捷克的這個執行可能最開始一半市場一半政策導向但是證明他是有市場效益的嘛那有一陣子是我記得是班班都客滿那我們希望說對華府跟我們對美國之間當然說除了傳統的市場經貿上面的之外觀光文化等等還是希望有這個機會來去把這個航線能夠建立起來是好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":19464.605,"end":19466.806,"text":"登記委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定"},{"start":19493.052,"end":19516.967,"text":"第一 報告及詢問完畢第二 委員劉建國 陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報第三 委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆要去嗎 馬上到嗎"},{"start":19526.035,"end":19529.156,"text":"我們稍微看一段時間,這兩個狗就可以決議了這裡完了就,還有13"},{"start":19553.885,"end":19554.105,"text":"謝謝工作人員"},{"start":19590.534,"end":19606.886,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19628.656,"end":19655.128,"text":"現在就等富奎啦今天那個部長就已經先離開富奎沒有來之前我再提醒一下觀光署還有彥博就是有關於關稅對於國旅跟國際旅遊的衝擊部長早上有說影響還有待評估其實我們自己要先做好準備"},{"start":19657.089,"end":19677.16,"text":"就好像颱風來或不來,颱風有小颱風、大颱風、強烈颱風那我們相關的防颱機制就有一級設置、二級設置、三級設置那這樣的一個關稅對國旅或是國際旅遊衝擊,我建議觀光署還是要做好啊"},{"start":19679.197,"end":19707.728,"text":"衝擊很大的時候我們怎麼辦那我們需要怎樣的支援或者是行政院的補助什麼這個方案要提出來了要先做好不是說到時候再看影響怎樣再來想辦法影響到什麼層級就有什麼對應的政策這樣會比較好了這是我的建議謝謝昆州委員"},{"start":19715.582,"end":19723.353,"text":"不是,富貴還多久到?沒有啦,他不是在那邊搞嗎?不是說已經在那裡了嗎?沒有在那裡了"},{"start":19744.807,"end":19747.408,"text":"還是我們崑澤哥哥 速度比較快"},{"start":19793.869,"end":19801.675,"text":"謝謝副國務委員、蘇業委員補充報告王益川、林倩琦所提書面質詢列入公報"},{"start":19806.355,"end":19810.919,"text":"接下來處理討論事項一解凍案暨兩案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":19815.175,"end":19843.957,"text":"討論四項一處理一百一三年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計兩案一交通部函減送臺灣港務股份有限公司新增決議第二項合併業務費用預算凍結十分之一書面報告案二交通部函減送桃園國際機場股份有限公司新增決議第四項一般建築及設備計畫預算凍結百分之五專案報告案宣讀完畢以上兩案請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":19846.415,"end":19857.252,"text":"我們做一下決議 均同意動之提報院會再來處理討論事項二 人民請願案計12案 請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":19863.534,"end":19887.595,"text":"討論事項二審查人民請願文書共識二案一陳軍海商法共參案二陳軍航空法律概念國際法的發展義書案三群議公司建請修正政府採購法第四八條第二項條文案四政軍有關酒駕修法案五民軍建請修正道路交通管理處罰條例第三條案六"},{"start":19888.616,"end":19909.855,"text":"吳軍等為電動自行車納入道路交通管理處罰條例案七張軍為肇事嚴重性予以調照等並重重量刑案八鄭軍為警方擴張行政裁量權建請研議修法導政案九台灣港務股份有限公司關係企業工會為徵訂"},{"start":19913.157,"end":19937.658,"text":"傳援法第五十七條之一條文案此台灣港務股份有限公司關係企業工會為傳援法第五十七條之一條文修正案十一歐陽軍衛加強對酒駕累犯建請修正道路交通管理處罰條例相關規定案十二林軍衛建議修正道路交通管理處罰條例案宣讀完畢"},{"start":19940.575,"end":19964.215,"text":"討論事項所列人民請願案已經宣讀現在來處理第一依照立法院職權行使法第66條規定由本會審查應否成為議案有關個案之相關處理經過現場會議資料人民請願文書審查一覽表以及處理該況均有序明"},{"start":19965.892,"end":19972.599,"text":"經查個案以分別含請主管機關查付本會及續名理由第二"},{"start":19973.601,"end":19994.955,"text":"依立法院職權刑事法第67條規定人民請願文書案請由委員會審查是否成為議案之程序各位委員進行審查時如果需要經理不了解處理經過及細節可再詢問今天列席的權責機關代表現在進行處理"},{"start":19996.328,"end":20015.044,"text":"由於議程所列請願案均已有譴責機關做相關處理如果在下委員沒有異議的話請問有沒有異議沒有異議的話那我們就循審查人權的前例做以下決議"},{"start":20016.758,"end":20035.586,"text":"個案均不成為議案依立法院職權行使法第67條第二項規定續名理由及處理經過送由程序委員會報請院會存查並通知請願人本次會議結束 散會謝謝大家"},{"start":20039.941,"end":20041.163,"text":"谢谢 谢谢"},{"start":20059.634,"end":20060.035,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":20087.189,"end":20087.789,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16575","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc9b2e70173c67771b4f7cda26dcb539f86e2c503bbdfdf4b6621649108217e0745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-09T08:31:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T13:25:00+08:00","duration":17618,"影片長度":"04:53:38","委員發言時間":"08:31:22 - 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ext":"報告委員會初席委員11人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好我們現在開始開會先進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄實踐中華民國114年4月2日星期三上午9時至11時13分"},{"start":1742.202,"end":1759.847,"text":"地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員陳培宇委員12人列席委員陳妮菲委員等54人列席官員衛道主席莊昭吉委員瑞雄報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請立法院秘書長列席就國會擴簽簽擴簽簽之進度及未來規劃進行專題報告並備諮詢三邀請立法院議事處處長列席就國會擴簽簽後議事廳之規劃進行專題報告並備諮詢通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1777.509,"end":1796.097,"text":"我們先介紹道場委員跟應邀列席官員首先我們介紹莊惠雄委員接著我們介紹應邀列席官員司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡怡法務部鄭明謙部長"},{"start":1800.131,"end":1828.733,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會主命黃文哲主命速發部長賜葉寧長賜社會部政賜張料萬堅政賜陸委會副主委梁文傑副主委內政部移民署副署長陳建成國安局副局長黃明昭先講清楚一下"},{"start":1830.071,"end":1856.827,"text":"其餘未介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本日議程排定邀請市法院副秘書長、法務部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委、訴發部部長、教育部部長、陸委會主委、內政部移民署署長、國安局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就言論自由不在"},{"start":1858.806,"end":1875.536,"text":"界限誰說了算國家政府特定政治言論的法律邊界進行專題報告並備諮詢現在進行報告每位發言時間三分鐘我們首先先請司法院陳一聽長報告 謝謝下一位會請法務部部長鄭部長報告"},{"start":1883.924,"end":1906.386,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進今天奉邀列席貴委委員會就本專題來代表本院進行報告那僅就本院的意見說明如下首先 人民有言論自由是憲法第11條所明定的而本院大法官就憲法11條言論或表現自由的保障"},{"start":1906.826,"end":1919.755,"text":"先後有做成數則的解釋以及判決那其中也多次強調言論自由在於保障意見的自由流通使人民有取得充分資訊以及實現自我的機會國家應對"},{"start":1922.617,"end":1938.492,"text":"言論自由最大限度的保障但這也並不意味任何言論自由均絕對保障而不受到任何的限制那麼就不同類型的言論例如政治、學術、宗教、藝術或商業言論"},{"start":1940.113,"end":1954.049,"text":"會依其性質而有不同的保護範疇及限制的準則可以以法律明確規定而為合理適當的限制那麼就與政治性言論有關的憲法解釋或裁判"},{"start":1954.79,"end":1978.561,"text":"既有這個四字445644以及113憲判五號的判決那其中445解釋指明集會遊行法相關規定乃是對於主張共產主義或分裂國土的言論使主管機關在許可集會遊行以前可以就人民政治上的言論來進行審查"},{"start":1981.242,"end":1995.31,"text":"這個與憲法保障表現自由的意旨有違因此宣告違憲那麼644號解釋那麼也認為相關當時相關人民團體法的規定是使主管機關在許可人民"},{"start":1996.07,"end":1996.25,"text":"主席"},{"start":2017.42,"end":2045.956,"text":"113 宪判五號是就有關刑法侮辱公務員罪及侮辱職務罪是否違憲作成判決判決理由也明確的指出國家對於涉及公共事務言論的內容以及觀點應盡可能的保持中立尤其是就直接針對國家機關政府施政或執行公務等公權力的異議或反對言論應給予最大的保障"},{"start":2046.536,"end":2072.168,"text":"不應盡致動用刑法來直接壓制此等異議或反對的言論那麼因此檢視我國刑法的規定刑法一百條在八十一年修正之後如果僅是發表特定的政治言論而未為或者是預備為強暴脅迫的行為的話就不可能會構成普通內亂罪那麼最後"},{"start":2073.388,"end":2101.458,"text":"在具體的個案中政治言論自由的界限必須依照法律跟具體個案情節來參酌前述的司法實務見解做成判斷那麼本院執事司法行政對於已經細數或者是即將細數的個案不宜表示意見以維持審判獨立那麼以上報告敬請各位委員跟先進指教謝謝"},{"start":2104.585,"end":2111.036,"text":"好 謝謝庭長好 下一位我們麻煩請鄭部長報告那鄭部長之後麻煩張耀萬監正次報告 謝謝"},{"start":2128.616,"end":2143.213,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席並代表法務部報告並被質詢 此報告如下那憲法第11條所保障言論自由重點在保障意見之自由流通使人民取得充分資訊及自我實現的機會而為淪為散播言"},{"start":2146.297,"end":2172.67,"text":"仇恨以鼓吹戰爭的工具那長久以來國家對政治上言論的保護一直是實現民族的一個重要的一個方式之一但政治上的言論與會政治上的言論之間呢並不存在絕對且唯一的標準具體個案中的言論性質種類及所應受保護的密度需依個案來做一個判斷那我國事現實務認為在高度政治上言論應尊重人民言論的表意權"},{"start":2173.59,"end":2199.831,"text":"言論自由的價值與國家安全公共利益今不可偏會依照憲法23條的規定如何防止妨害他的自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序或增進公共利益所必要能得以法律來做一個限制那另外公正公約第19條20條保障人民言論自由同時賦予立法禁止鼓吹宣傳戰爭及仇視性言論的義務並強調必須遵循法律保留原則及比例原則"},{"start":2200.752,"end":2216.421,"text":"那此以我國憲法第23條的規範是一致的在國際法上羅馬公約25條第三項規定叫所幫助促成實施魅覺種族危害人類戰爭及侵略罪者屬於犯罪行為應受處罰此外在拉脫維亞"},{"start":2217.722,"end":2237.358,"text":"芬蘭刑法設計對鼓吹戰爭行為的處罰規定而德國刑法第130條對仇恨言論擁護納粹言論亦有處罰規定另依照我國刑法規定以公然文字文字突發演說或他法上或他能犯刑法第100條內亂101條暴動內犯或103條通謀開戰罪"},{"start":2241.983,"end":2270.812,"text":"極有可能構成刑法153的散落貪婪犯罪的罪責那鑒於公正公約第20條已經賦予國家立法的一個義務本部隊是否就從性言論鼓吹戰爭言論徵射處罰規定將持續廣大各界意見在符合憲法第23條法律保留原則及比例原則的前提下盤點現行法制並積極妥適嚴厲兼顧保障言論自由同時維護國家安全及公共利益以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2274.873,"end":2284.019,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 下一位我們請張亮萬間正次報告那接著再下一位我們會邀請梁文傑副主委報告"},{"start":2285.666,"end":2311.994,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位理事先生 大家好本次受邀列席貴委員會進行專題報告緊究高級中學以下教育階段教師教學專業自主權及言論自由之法令規範專業原則及因應作為提出報告第一 法律規範與專業原則那麼第一 有關憲法保障原則依中華民國憲法第十一條規定人民有言論自由言論自由為憲法保障基本人權"},{"start":2312.794,"end":2338.247,"text":"適用於所有人民,老師也不例外第二,教育目的、中立與專業原則那麼教育基本法第二條也規定教育目的在培養人民成為具有國家意識與國際視野之現代化國民那第六條也規定教育因本中立原則十二年國教課綱也明示教師應依專業標準以開放多元態度引導學生理性溝通"},{"start":2338.867,"end":2367.292,"text":"尊重差异特别在涉及社会文化及政治议题时避免植入个人立场或意识形态确保课堂中立与学生事变空间那么第三教学专业自主与义务教师法第31条规定教师之教学及对学生之辅导享有专业自主权那么第32条也规定教师负有维护校育严守职份发良师道及专业精神之义务"},{"start":2367.952,"end":2389.618,"text":"那麼第四教師自主自律本部中華民國教師專業標準指引及全國教師會訂定全國教師自律公約那麼教師應善盡教育專業責任那麼具備專業表現指標不得利用職權教導或要求學生支持特定政黨或候選人那亦不得有違倫理之行為"},{"start":2390.658,"end":2412.757,"text":"那麼第二大項本部立場與因應作為第一小項教育以培養國家意識現代化國民為目的國家主權與國家認同是學校人才培育的重要課題本部保障教師言論自由為教師之言行對學生具有重大示範及默化作用"},{"start":2414.144,"end":2437.692,"text":"教師之音更謹言慎行那麼第二本部及各地方政府將持續推動教師研習與倫理課程增進教師對言論自由與教育中立界限之認識此外本部在今年3月28號以含義各縣市政府轉請所屬學校應落實教育中立原則強化教師專業自主"},{"start":2439.272,"end":2464.823,"text":"那麼本部呢將秉持依法行政保障人權與維護教育品質之原則持續透過師資培育與教育宣導那麼協助教師民變言論自由與教育中立之邊界以利監固憲法保障教育中立與學生學習權益持續強化教師專業形象與公民社會信賴以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2470.416,"end":2477.209,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請梁文傑委員報告再下一位我們麻煩陳建成副組長報告"},{"start":2487.348,"end":2501.08,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家好陳蒙貴委員會邀請然後針對言論自由不在界限誰說了算國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界進行專題報告那以下請提出本會說明"},{"start":2502.981,"end":2526.351,"text":"中華民國是自由民主法治國家在法治界限所容許的範圍內人民充分享有自由權利那依憲法第11條規定人民享有言論自由的保障但是憲法第23條則規定人民的自由權利如為防止妨礙他人自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序或增進公共利益所必要者外並非不得以法律限制"},{"start":2527.111,"end":2541.59,"text":"那我們司法院大法官歷來相關憲法解釋以及憲法法庭判決都指出憲法對於原任自由的保障並非絕對立法者於符合憲法第23條規定意旨之範圍內得以法律明確規定與適當限制"},{"start":2544.946,"end":2568.236,"text":"那言論自由的核心在於實現自我溝通意見追求真理滿足人民知的權利促進多元民主社會的正常發展等等但如果言論自由遭到濫用威脅自由民主制度所賴以依附的國家主權與安全就違背了憲法保障言論自由的目的那臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例"},{"start":2570.228,"end":2597.369,"text":"是依據憲法徵修條文第十一條規定授權來制定那對於兩岸人民往來所衍生法律事件之特別規定那鑒於兩岸政治經濟和社會體制具有重大本質差異兩岸條例和相關法令對於經過許可在台居留之中國大陸人士相關權利義務有特別規範那以確保台灣安全民眾福祉"},{"start":2598.547,"end":2618.054,"text":"那司法院釋字第497號解釋也肯定有關中國大陸人民進入台灣之資格要件許可程序以及停留期限等是為了確保台灣安全和民眾福祉並沒有逾越母法授權的範圍而且與憲法第23條規定也沒有抵觸"},{"start":2619.827,"end":2635.758,"text":"那我們要強調的是中共始終不放棄武力犯台對我們有強烈的敵意和侵台的野心所以我們對於來台的中國大陸人民對他的言行會有比較高度的規範而且要求他們遵守我方法例"},{"start":2637.159,"end":2658.662,"text":"那近來有極少數大陸人士為了個人私利賺取網路流量在台灣散佈鼓吹武力侵略台灣矮化我國主權以及意圖消滅中華民國的不當言論那對於這樣的人士我們本會支持主管機關依相關法令裁處"},{"start":2659.636,"end":2686.687,"text":"那如果這些人士他對於這個行政處分不服也可以尋相關行政徵送程序尋求司法救濟那本會強調大部分陸配都是熱愛台灣認同我們自由民主制度那我們也呼籲國人應該以友善包容的態度對待也不要因為極少數人士的不當行為就標籤化特定的群體以上報告敬請各位委員執教 謝謝"},{"start":2704.306,"end":2714.931,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、大家好本日貴委員會排定國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界專題報告本屬應邀列席說明"},{"start":2716.141,"end":2722.328,"text":"接下來就涉及本署選擇事項進行報告 敬請各位委員會議指導"},{"start":2724.189,"end":2750.56,"text":"1.近期案例的說明以法律依據依據《台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例》下稱兩岸條例第18條第一項第五款之規定進入台灣地區之大陸地區人民有事實足認為有危害國家安全之大陸地區人或社會安定之予者本屬得進行強制出境或限定其十日內出境"},{"start":2751.42,"end":2776.223,"text":"欲限定出境期限能未出境者,本屬得強制出境另一,大陸地區人民在台灣地區移居、長期居留或定居許可辦法下簡稱許可辦法第十四條及第二十六條等規定大陸地區人民申請移居、長期居留有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘者"},{"start":2777.984,"end":2798.784,"text":"不與許可者撤銷或廢止其許可二、近期的案例近期有三名中國大陸的配偶因分別在網路發布影片依據影片的前後脈絡依社會通鏈做判斷取等公然鼓吹"},{"start":2800.712,"end":2821.498,"text":"無統侵略、佔領台灣或消滅我國主權之違法言論,已造成目前社會爭議四起,紛擾難平,並升高各種對立氛圍,顯有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘,對公義有重大影響,原內政部依據上述法令規定,"},{"start":2822.518,"end":2840.353,"text":"以其等有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘廢止移軍或長期居留許可並限令於10日內出境其中兩個人分別在今年的3月25號及31號於限定期限內自行出境另外一位"},{"start":2842.43,"end":2858.384,"text":"與縣令出境其縣人位出境經本署依兩案條例第十八條第三項規定邀集律師專家學者於本年四月一號召開強制出境審查會並依決議於當日強制其出境"},{"start":2859.482,"end":2886.333,"text":"本屬於行政程序法相關規定於前階處分書載明行政救濟管道其中有一名中國大陸配偶委任律師申請停止執行經台北高等行政法院於本年3月21日裁定駁回駁回理由提及衡量其拘留之私權利與我國社會安定之重大公共利益"},{"start":2886.973,"end":2914.296,"text":"尚無准許停止執行之必要且兩岸人民信其往來無重大阻礙其配偶亦得前往大陸地區團聚非僅限來台團聚在一般通念上短期內難為會導致其等於配偶間夫妻關係破裂的難源令最高行政法院在本年3月27日駁回抗告駁回理由一旨指出"},{"start":2914.776,"end":2941.822,"text":"内政部因该名中国大陆配偶发布影片之内容任有危害国家安全及社会安定之余而作成相关处分难为合法性显有疑义二本属执行作为依两公约之公民及政治权利国际公约第20条规定任何鼓吹战争之宣传应以法律禁止之两公约施行法业于98年12月10日施行"},{"start":2942.822,"end":2955.602,"text":"依該法第二條規定兩公約所揭示保障人權之規定具有國內法律效力本屬並與依法行政針對相關個案"},{"start":2958.208,"end":2984.729,"text":"疑似有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘情形而涉及違反兩岸關係條例及許可辦法等法令規定均依行政程序法規定調查相關事實及證據經通知當事人陳述意見並會商大陸委員會及國家安全局等機關使依法審證做成相關行政處分等處置"},{"start":2985.369,"end":3006.161,"text":"三結語我國為民主法治國家公權力不容挑戰針對大陸地區人民公然鼓吹無統勳略言論之違法行為本署均依法調查並依既有機一致做成處置以維護國家安全及社會安定本署將根據配合"},{"start":3007.142,"end":3033.657,"text":"政策的指示我與國安團隊密切合作共同落實國安工作守護我國民主自由之核心價值以上報告懇請委員會執導謝謝好 謝謝那我們請問一下其餘的機關代表有沒有要進行報告的有沒有好 那如果都沒有的話我們先確認依事錄那請問"},{"start":3035.834,"end":3036.656,"text":"上次會議書有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":3041.713,"end":3066.419,"text":"沒有的話那議事錄確定那今晚代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要值得延長2分鐘非本委員會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午失戀30分截止發言登記我們現在請發言登記第一位黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":3074.22,"end":3097.528,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長部長早部長早喔這些詐騙洗錢的重犯啊一個一個跑啊 整個社會都很憤怒啊特別啊 是有特別的政治關係啊 顏色對的金融重犯"},{"start":3098.74,"end":3123.032,"text":"之前跑了一個諸葛隆,後來跑了一個中文智,整個社會群情嘩然上一次我在這邊質詢部長的時候是問中文智所牽涉到的另外一件詐欺洗錢的案子新北地檢是不是還在睡,到底有沒有在辦結果沒想到在我們質詢的同時,他另外一個三省定院的案子竟然跑了"},{"start":3123.766,"end":3141.545,"text":"跑了以後這個風波啊非常非常的大因為我後來問司法院司法院讓他增加保證金取代科技設備監控為什麼找不到裁定結果搞了半天司法院當初的高等法院"},{"start":3142.844,"end":3165.273,"text":"根本沒有做裁定這件事情越來越嚴重跟司法院有關係的責任我明天追因為今天來的是行政廳的廳長副秘書長沒有來問行政廳的廳長對他不公平司法院的責任我明天一定追但我接下來要請教一下法務部這個是我問法務部說"},{"start":3167.65,"end":3192.305,"text":"針對解除電子監控這件事情我們的檢察官具體作為是什麼法務部說在113年10月9號開庭的時候有表示建請法院對被告實施電子監控也就是我們的檢察官當庭有表示反對 這個是客觀的事實我向來說話 有一說一那但是呢"},{"start":3193.368,"end":3215.387,"text":"增加保證經濟不延長電子監控的部分啊高檢署沒有接獲高等法院送達相關裁定的紀錄這句話也是對的因為等到今年四月才補作裁定嘛那等到今年四月才補作裁定怎麼可能會啊 接獲通知但下面有一些具體的問題啊來 先請教一下部長"},{"start":3217.865,"end":3244.074,"text":"為了甩鍋高院為了甩鍋說我們那個時候做裁定以前有打電話去問檢察官問檢察官有沒有意見結果檢察官都說沒有意見前面甩鍋不成現在繼續試圖甩鍋部長有沒有去了解法官說他們有打電話去問問檢察官有沒有意見檢察官表示沒有意見這句話這個是真的還假的"},{"start":3245.186,"end":3265.111,"text":"跟委員報告,那這部分太高情有些要分那個調製案再了解那這個還要了解多久?這個我們會盡快來...拖多久啦?群情化欄啦當初誰接的電話,找來問一問不就知道了這個需要這麼久?這事情發生到現在"},{"start":3266.38,"end":3287.046,"text":"然後部長您跟大家講的是高檢署現在成立調治案在調查要調查多久在調查半年調查一年調查到整個社會忘記這件事是嗎需要多久需要多久我們盡快盡快盡快是多久半年一年還是一個月給大家一個時間嘛全部都在講形容詞"},{"start":3295.291,"end":3313.718,"text":"現在高檢是在調捐贈嗎是所以需要多久這個還要再問訪詢那個沒關係你會後問高檢需要多久書面回覆給我可以嗎可以這是很嚴重喔為什麼很嚴重我進一步請教部長因為後來發現啊高等法院竟然抽換"},{"start":3315.664,"end":3331.063,"text":"電話查詢記錄表結果高院發聲明啦說沒有沒有我們是按照後來比較正確的記憶再重新補作一份如果到時候查出來當初根本就沒有"},{"start":3333.044,"end":3357.391,"text":"當初根本就沒有說他們對電子監控的部分沒有意見那高院做這樣子的電話紀錄表這個是不是有公文書登載不實的問題來 請教部長各位報告 這部分是民眾有來告發了那現在北檢在分攤在正辦局快點辦啦大家看不下去了啦我們的高等法院跟高等檢察署誰說謊"},{"start":3360.031,"end":3381.975,"text":"有沒有公文書記載不死我老實跟部長報告啦不管是高院還是高檢署對台灣的司法公信力殺傷力都非常大啦兩個互踢皮球踢到最後一定要有人負責更離譜的事情是什麼更離譜的事情是說哇 發現事情大條囉趕快連電話紀錄都可以抽換喔"},{"start":3386.175,"end":3413.428,"text":"我們在辦案的時候啊 之前做過的紀錄啊可以用抽換的方式嗎 來請部長部長 您當過檢察官很有經驗啊你要不然就更正嘛 你更正才有紀錄怎麼會用抽換的呢部長您以前在當檢察官的時候有抽換過這種紀錄嗎我沒有碰過這種的情形對喔 我現在就問你嘛 作為法務部的大家長應該做這種抽換的事情嗎"},{"start":3415.165,"end":3420.004,"text":"可以這樣做嗎還是因為司法院的代表坐在下面你面露尷尬不敢回答"},{"start":3422.711,"end":3447.874,"text":"可以這樣做嗎這個是一個法律清楚的基準嘛就不應該這樣做嘛沒關係喔你說方案調查了我們繼續看下去但問題是啊高檢署回答問題啊其實也不是全部都真的為什麼他絕對不是今年4月才知道為什麼不是去年4月才知道去年12月16號在有關於限制出境出海"},{"start":3449.025,"end":3465.085,"text":"延長初季的裁定理由當中就已經寫了啊就已經寫了啊高院的裁定裡面就跟你們講啊欸那個電子監控我已經解除了欸所以檢察官至少去年12月就知道了請問檢察官有什麼具體作為"},{"start":3467.745,"end":3496.745,"text":"這部分因為這個是12月16號的延長的裁定的確是有收到但是這裡面是已經他裡面是有序名裡面是說他已經解決所以我才說檢察官一定知道嘛那這部分因為我們這部分沒有申請因為這屬於那個審理中的一個電子監控的一個當然啦是因為審理中所以檢察官才有立場表達意見嘛我一般的市井小民看的再火大表達意見都沒有用嘛"},{"start":3497.985,"end":3523.734,"text":"司法院法院就講一個啊尊重審判獨立啊尊重法官啊而且他這個跟委員報告齁這個裁定事實是針對延長限制出境的並不是針對科控的這我知道我剛已經講過了嘛現在我要建立的事情只有檢察官早就知道了這件事最起碼12月就知道我現在的問題是知道了以後做了什麼事知道了以後一看雙手一攤很無奈因為沒有申請權嘛"},{"start":3525.653,"end":3547.167,"text":"對嘛大家現在在問的就這個事嘛如果檢察官也覺得不應該檢察官也覺得很憤怒怎麼最晚到12月知道的時候什麼行動都沒有採取大家在問的是這個事情啊我想我問題講得很明確啦沒有什麼太難理解的問題啊"},{"start":3548.851,"end":3572.928,"text":"因為最主要還是因為這不是一個科控的一個裁定所以我們也沒辦法表示意見沒有辦法表示意見 真的你確定這個沒辦法做一個法律上的一個不是啦 部長你以部長的高度講這個話全國的檢察官聽了會嚇一跳然後大家馬上鬆一口氣哇 原來這樣子部長都說我們檢察官沒有表達意見那以後通通都不要表達意見是這樣嗎對嘛 可以促請他有促請他嗎有嗎"},{"start":3578.464,"end":3602.976,"text":"大家都沒藥沒錢跟部長講得很好檢察官可以促請他問題是大家在問啊沒有啊不僅沒促請他來我們再往下看後來蔥文智啊到1月還跑去香港去了三天啊我看了這個裁定理由我看的是目瞪口呆啊他說為了要協助我國企業達成碳中和的目標"},{"start":3604.496,"end":3629.418,"text":"然後達成產業發展淨零排放的平衡所以他獲得了香港大灣區碳中和新區區市峰會然後特別找我們的金融重犯找我們的詐欺洗錢犯跑到香港這個碳中和的峰會來擔任主講人當初讓他去香港這件事情檢察官有沒有表示意見"},{"start":3631.616,"end":3658.621,"text":"因為這個不是針對那個科控的對我知道啊但是現在大家都在講啊他的逃亡路徑啊大家有沒有發現跟祝國樓很像都先去香港先去香港幹嘛去辦護照這個法官是沒有裁定這件事沒有裁定的部長你看一下好不好白紙黑字把高等法院的裁定都寫出來了這個證是沒有開庭的所以跟那個10月9號伊森10月9號所以檢察官有沒有表示意見"},{"start":3660.558,"end":3675.575,"text":"他是有做一個電話的一個記錄本案承辦檢察官表示沒有意見你有沒有看到裁定理由上面都有寫的本案檢察官表示沒有意見但是這個裁定因為他那時候裁定還沒有"},{"start":3677.284,"end":3702.876,"text":"沒有裁定理由就寫了嘛部長大家希望你展現的是一個破例啊不是在上面護航連基本的客觀事實都不對太難看了啦這個是跟委員報告我們這個還要再去做電話記錄我們還要再做一個查證我已經跟你講這是寫在高等法院的裁定理由針對允許他去香港這件事跟電子監控是兩碼子事啊"},{"start":3703.656,"end":3715.965,"text":"部長您聽我指許要專心一點現在我們已經移到第三個問題了你腦袋還停留在第一個問題現在我的問題是准許他去香港這件事情路徑跟出國龍一模一樣"},{"start":3717.372,"end":3734.689,"text":"先去香港把逃亡的路線護照都辦一辦 再回來更好笑的是什麼更好笑的是我在想說香港哪一個天才團體會找台灣的詐欺洗錢犯去參加這個碳中和的高峰會議還擔任主講人"},{"start":3737.011,"end":3762.422,"text":"我追中文字的案子追那麼久我都不知道中文字對碳中和這麼有研究結果來看一下大灣區碳中和協會這個是在幫中國搞一帶一路的在幫中國搞一帶一路的有沒有開會 有開會有沒有演講嘉賓 有演講嘉賓結果我整個網站看完了以後我看不到中文字三個字我看不到"},{"start":3764.673,"end":3789.039,"text":"他不是說他去出席那邊聽取會議喔 採地理由來我再給部長看一次 擔任主講人 擔任speaker很厲害啊 讓世界看到台灣啊到香港去啊 讓幫中國搞一帶一路啊 看到台灣啊結果 完全沒有看到 那主講人的名單根本沒他"},{"start":3790.27,"end":3813.936,"text":"整個活動網頁裡面我試圖找出中文字三個字所有的主角列出來就是什麼就是沒有中文字今天司法院的代表有坐在這邊可能回去轉告副秘書長這題我明天問當初法官是閉著眼睛在做裁定嗎當初法官是閉著眼睛在做裁定嗎現在這件事情臭不可聞來最後我要呼應民進黨立委郭國文講的"},{"start":3817.876,"end":3838.822,"text":"所有跟中文字有關勾結的啊 徹查金流 部長贊不贊成這部分北檢已經立案再偵辦了 我想會全面來立案再偵辦是立案再偵辦嘛現在大家北檢立案再偵辦的案子太多了啦太多了啦 但是一堆案子都放在那邊睡啦有特殊關係的案子就不會動啦"},{"start":3839.761,"end":3865.951,"text":"我講話我負責啊下次質詢部長啊如果有興趣我一件一件點給你聽啊什麼叫做有特殊關係的辦了好幾年放在那邊還是睡啊現在是全面徹查喔不是只查特定的人喔全面徹查部長你就有一個部長的樣子展現一個態度啊說這個事情太可惡了法務部支持全面徹查會反映這個意見給台北地檢署部長可不可以這部分我想會總告給台北地檢署"},{"start":3867.128,"end":3893.159,"text":"那是我的意見啦我相信台北地檢署有聽到了現在我要的是你的立場全面測查贊不贊成我們當然有證據到來我們就辦到哪裡部長社會已經大家已經看不下去了大家已經看不下去了我現在接下來等著看全面測查是查真的還是查假的不要等到半年以後我們在這個地方再問一次"},{"start":3894.264,"end":3912.066,"text":"你的問題還是 你的答案還是一樣檢察官依照證據有證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡 持續偵辦當中什麼時候會辦出來不知道會慢慢辦 繼續辦大家等著看好 謝謝好 謝謝那現在我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":3926.89,"end":3934.334,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委那個移民署啊來齁"},{"start":3943.165,"end":3964.187,"text":"廉政部移民署副署長副主委還有副署長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交上市中國戶籍的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了軒然大波"},{"start":3964.946,"end":3988.859,"text":"然後認為說這是不是因為雅雅案才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是 謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先述明的因為兩岸關係"},{"start":3990.68,"end":4017.169,"text":"是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道"},{"start":4017.729,"end":4032.653,"text":"這個大家知道 2004年有這樣的一個規定以後修法的一個目的 本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍 你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢 我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛 證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了"},{"start":4042.851,"end":4061.213,"text":"執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了,你們說他要交,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動"},{"start":4062.25,"end":4073.801,"text":"或者說當初是什麼原因 有的時候越來越多你現在怎麼辦 按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷 來來來 副主委 梁文傑副主委法律規定 副署長說的是有 單一而已"},{"start":4084.266,"end":4108.477,"text":"真的敢做這樣 不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份"},{"start":4109.707,"end":4136.024,"text":"那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較"},{"start":4140.714,"end":4164.303,"text":"根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的"},{"start":4169.026,"end":4196.648,"text":"有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年也不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證"},{"start":4198.446,"end":4208.216,"text":"這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身為敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點好啦"},{"start":4219.946,"end":4231.136,"text":"那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題你這個補件不是問題那問題是上面這三種方法"},{"start":4236.761,"end":4260.562,"text":"我看都不切實際那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化它的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款"},{"start":4261.303,"end":4289.218,"text":"對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用切解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況啊為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長 你的嫁給他 說那賣 那賠給民間 民衝的都有可能 都有可能"},{"start":4290.499,"end":4305.368,"text":"這情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的咧看那個人不算嫌棄那個人嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出米加米又不大事那你怎麼辦"},{"start":4307.435,"end":4331.912,"text":"報告委員 依據我們的統計 目前歷年來 獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果 多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說 你這是走不出的三條路嘛"},{"start":4332.708,"end":4346.382,"text":"你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體"},{"start":4349.164,"end":4375.735,"text":"這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站"},{"start":4377.716,"end":4398.509,"text":"也多開放讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題結論還是沒有怎麼辦我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我說一波也沒辦法換我了報告委員其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話"},{"start":4400.031,"end":4428.212,"text":"那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝"},{"start":4430.202,"end":4436.49,"text":"好 所以其實九條一其實沒有解釋的空間沒有交其實就是撤銷可是你經過了這20年"},{"start":4438.703,"end":4459.656,"text":"你沒有去做的話 剩下這1萬多個 我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊 這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了 好不好好 謝謝時間先暫停 那我現在再請我們文傑副主委請留步 國安局副局長好 麻煩副局長"},{"start":4469.465,"end":4489.28,"text":"我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank那寫了一些80年代的人很喜歡,八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是那因為遺傳心臟病,那不得不淡出這個演藝圈"},{"start":4490.06,"end":4505.531,"text":"那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的11月在中國完成的心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝祖國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候"},{"start":4511.61,"end":4528.628,"text":"心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題"},{"start":4530.369,"end":4558.79,"text":"從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人"},{"start":4561.499,"end":4589.347,"text":"各位報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做"},{"start":4590.572,"end":4609.056,"text":"這人之常情 我認為他會做 他要活命嘛他要活命嘛 所以人道之間 這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源 這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題 那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰 這叫人性"},{"start":4611.636,"end":4617.043,"text":"那這些怎麼辦啊 換成你們的大人好了啦 也說你們的比較不好意思 我們旁邊的人 我們好朋友 他是大人 還是他自己要換器官禮職 他說你跟我說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣 你跟我說我共產黨不好 這樣你也做不夠 這樣不好給你換"},{"start":4629.948,"end":4645.758,"text":"所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了?"},{"start":4650.669,"end":4679.276,"text":"郭文貴報告 那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒辦法 我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安"},{"start":4681.508,"end":4691.535,"text":"帽子很大,可是碰到這種人性,你也很困難你也沒辦法,兩手一攤,你說我們再來研議,你能這樣嗎?有辦法嗎?這個是一個議題啦,也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信,面臨到這個問題,我相信我們會尋求一個研議一個方式來處理啦"},{"start":4709.963,"end":4718.735,"text":"好 兩位請為那個召委 抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院 今天廳長有來今天廳長有來"},{"start":4726.13,"end":4745.072,"text":"委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問一下對不起趙委員因為趙委員今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦"},{"start":4745.993,"end":4757.328,"text":"就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我鍾愛雄講的算也不會法國部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊"},{"start":4758.49,"end":4783.138,"text":"我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊 你去看看大法官 你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說 其實我們從四字在509號在講新聞自由 445號重新回溯去看集會遊行避免言論的審查的自由還有四字617號 這一些其實都是在講言論自由那"},{"start":4784.301,"end":4804.772,"text":"今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦 但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候 我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查 你們審查的標準又是什麼 我這很困難欸那現在大家在看 講到就是說 一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見"},{"start":4807.386,"end":4820.411,"text":"但是現在社會上碰到一個問題 你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動後 煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話 部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎"},{"start":4826.042,"end":4849.042,"text":"這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要"},{"start":4850.743,"end":4865.693,"text":"要來再做一個明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來"},{"start":4874.358,"end":4899.195,"text":"就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定的很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹 稍微跟著戰爭 稍微跟著宣傳"},{"start":4900.646,"end":4929.08,"text":"你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話"},{"start":4929.998,"end":4952.227,"text":"變成說扯到國安大家變成對老百姓產生一個寒蟬效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上這個是地震喔有喔是叫我不要問啊 趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊趙偉說叫我繼續啦今天喔"},{"start":4959.639,"end":4960.909,"text":"你如果說你模糊"},{"start":4961.92,"end":4989.922,"text":"一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊 應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著 我來請教你的看法"},{"start":4992.084,"end":5006.284,"text":"跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制"},{"start":5007.105,"end":5024.245,"text":"就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的"},{"start":5025.026,"end":5043.034,"text":"自由這樣Canton共我的主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓他非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了沒完沒了"},{"start":5044.355,"end":5069.749,"text":"所以我在這邊期許我們司法院 我們法務部 甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作 推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進否則法律不明確 大家開始都灰了 造成司法機關動輒得咎 開始辦一個案子 當成執政黨的一個打手這對你們也不好啊 好不好 這樣最基本的要求可以做到吧"},{"start":5071.239,"end":5095.048,"text":"謝謝委員 贊成委員意見 我們當作修化的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行 一個人這樣做 這是最基本的常識 好不好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝莊委員莊委員 後面非常感動而且認同 後面這一段好 謝謝喔 那下一位我們請林倩綺委員發言"},{"start":5105.029,"end":5128.308,"text":"好 謝謝主席張蕊在本席進行質詢之前本席想要做一個會議詢問因為本席看到今天出席的名單那在幾個這個部會有好多位應該您這邊邀的主管都請假好像司法院應該出席的副秘書長還有NCC國家通訊委員會的主秘也請假然後速發部的這個部長也請假教育部的部長也請假"},{"start":5133.172,"end":5157.478,"text":"大陸委員會的主委也請假內政部移民署的署長也請假國安局的局長也請假那我可以了解一下這是什麼樣一個狀況嗎他們各自都是有提就是說另有公務像那個陳王秘書長他是說有會議要主持然後"},{"start":5162.179,"end":5190.538,"text":"看一下那個NCC的主委他是只有寫一個因公其他的公務那速發部他他也是說只有另有要公然後移民署的中署長是要參加外交國防委員會的會議他應該是在另外一個委員會然後教育部的"},{"start":5192.421,"end":5215.104,"text":"政部長他也是說另有公務然後陸委會他也是寫另有公務蔡局長他是在國防外交委員會在另外一個委員會所以之後我們會再跟他反映因為今天確實非常多人說沒有辦法過來"},{"start":5216.67,"end":5245.072,"text":"那如果說另有要工的話那我們在我會請助理去了解一下到底是什麼樣的事情那之後如果有其他會議的話我想我會跟他們的聯絡人先大家先說明清楚如果有什麼問題那提早跟我們說讓我們了解一下或看有沒有辦法協助他們去排除他們所謂另有要工尤其是今天的今天的議題在我個人認為我看到那麼多"},{"start":5246.313,"end":5269.991,"text":"這個政務官不敢來我想我心裡大概也是有底啦因為畢竟這個問題是比較尖銳一點那我想說好如果你有問題等一下再提出來我先沒關係OK好謝謝謝謝你對我的微笑那所以說我想說我今天大概看到這樣的結果我想我心裡也有底啦那沒關係我們想說之後如果有必要那我們再請"},{"start":5272.15,"end":5279.906,"text":"這幾位部長來就同樣一個議題去發表意見我想我目前的想法是這樣不知道我的原因"},{"start":5281.189,"end":5307.457,"text":"好的 謝謝主席因為我也很少看到在過去的經驗裡面很少看到應該來的這個部會首長一整列這個請假所以有一些想要理性溝通的東西我覺得今天我可能要做一個很大的調整那也希望召委未來也有機會就針對這個議題那相關的部會我覺得這是一個溝通的平台所以如果可以的話那這些請假的應來的這個相關的首長那是不是請這個"},{"start":5310.097,"end":5337.787,"text":"跟委員說明一下一直到今天為止其實我並不知道會有那麼多部長請假我會知道有幾位沒有錯但是並不知道那麼多我說我之後可能會跟聯絡人討論一下就是說我們是不是將來有這個狀況能夠及早讓我們知道我們也讓各個委員知道這個狀況所以我們想要部長另有要工不是不行啦但是讓我們知道一下狀況然後我們可以比較好調配"},{"start":5340.283,"end":5365.134,"text":"謝謝趙偉 剛剛因為這個很多令有藥工或在其他的委員會那我想這個我就尊重趙偉的一個權責謝謝 謝謝趙偉所以今天大概有些東西我就做一些調整不過 好 那我就現在開始那當然今天今天的這個議題雖然有些人認為說很敏感可是我覺得正好藉這個機會大家可以做一些溝通"},{"start":5365.894,"end":5392.81,"text":"那原本我也是很期待這個副秘書長或者是司法院的跟法務部我們藉這個平台可以做一些對話但是竟然沒有我就要不然我一開始還是先請這個我們司法院的代表然後其實本來是主要是司法院那法務部長既然在這邊也很感謝那是不是也請您這邊我們一起來討論一下這件事但是我的重點麻煩廳長還有部長對基本上是在這個司法院"},{"start":5394.451,"end":5416.503,"text":"當然今天的議題就是言論自由的邊界當然我相信大家在整個社會氛圍都知道其實這就跟我們最近社會上幾件大事以民眾的觀點來講看起來很多事情會蠻難理解的當然就會有一些想像所以基本上就是言論自由的邊界還有這就關係到兩岸的和平"},{"start":5418.383,"end":5433.429,"text":"當然這其實也看到了一個政策的轉變但是這個政策轉變其實觸及了台灣作為一個自由民主社會制度的根基不僅讓我們感覺到說當國家以國安為名在干預言論"},{"start":5434.369,"end":5457.697,"text":"以敵我為界在處理兩岸關係的時候那民主的核心感覺上已經面臨了侵蝕的風險所以我希望透過今天能夠有一些制度性的檢討那但是因為有一些首長不在所以我就簡化某一些我們應該在這邊談的這個內容所以我們都知道幾個案件嘛那個被驅逐回去的這個陸配"},{"start":5459.618,"end":5484.76,"text":"還有受大陸那邊電視台訪問的教育人員我們講歐老師好了還有中研院院士有許多的學者也針對言論自由覺得政府在做思想審查這樣子的議題也開了一些會議來讓大家知道所以現在讓我們擔憂整個社會是不是因為不小心講錯話就會失去工作資格或居留權"},{"start":5485.501,"end":5504.706,"text":"那法務部長我其實在剛開始也跟您說我這邊代表一個民眾的觀點我不希望今天在這個階段先落入了一個法條的討論所以民眾的觀點是我這邊希望能夠對話的所以這個最近的事件讓我們感覺到國家權力已經介入了這個政治言論"},{"start":5505.686,"end":5526.651,"text":"然後整個制度有沒有開始偏離自由民主的憲政軌道當國家機器以國家為名但事實上在做意識形態為實的這樣一個鬥爭的時候逐漸擴張對言論的干預那這是我們今天提出質疑很重要的一點好 那時間關係我這邊提出對司法院提出"},{"start":5527.671,"end":5542.159,"text":"一些想法你們剛才在講說你們很多東西尊重主管機關的裁決這就像剛才莊委員有講的你們這樣會讓人家感覺標準不一所以我期待司法院這邊能夠更積極作為這是第一個"},{"start":5543.476,"end":5564.226,"text":"第二個部分是這一次陸配的事件我想問的是我拿聯合國代人權宣言委員會第34號的一般性意見其中有的內容要件跟我們有點憲法這邊有點接近就是明確性必要性比例性你們剛才也講到直接及"},{"start":5565.186,"end":5589.242,"text":"直接且及時的威脅那請問這幾個案例你們可以跟我們回應到底什麼東西是直接與及時的威脅嗎還有在過程當中做出處分前的整個程序保障有真正被落實嗎所以處分前有經過司法審查或者是給予當事人的程序保障或者是你國家有舉證"},{"start":5590.763,"end":5595.528,"text":"他們是如何危害及時而且事實上會影響的證據嗎這個不知道廳長這邊可以給一些回應嗎"},{"start":5604.869,"end":5627.807,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢我想首先先澄清一下就是我剛才回應莊委員的就是尊重各機關的這個立法的職權是基於是因為大法官是說其實言論自由不是毫無限制的是可以以法律加以限制的那我想剛才莊委員就說那這個法律的這個"},{"start":5630.663,"end":5640.013,"text":"法律的條件或法律的標準在哪裡這個當然就是他剛才給你們的建議但是我想這幾個事件你們在作出處分前的程序保障呢"},{"start":5641.652,"end":5661.239,"text":"那跟委員報告就是說那其實這一些怎麼樣以法律來在法律裡面來加以規範那這是屬於實體法的事項那現在行政機關就是那本席不希望今天落入法條或法律或者是法律邏輯上的一個討論立法原則的討論那對人民來講它就是生活"},{"start":5664.46,"end":5691.672,"text":"所以請你們積極的作為去了解這樣子的個案是不是在比例原則上程序上有符合相對的公義嗎這是當然的那不過跟委員報告就是目前委員剛才提到的雅雅案他的本案我沒有特別指出來好幾個這個中配案我不希望又個案然後又法條我今天要講的是整個社會已經被這種你們法律人的"},{"start":5692.957,"end":5717.253,"text":"隨意的解釋然後甚至還有某一些實際上的行為已經感到非常的焦慮所以本席在這邊提出來是司法院可不可以請你們可不可以更積極的作為而不是靜觀其變而已好嗎因為今天我們期待秘書長 副秘書長請假所以廳長請你把這樣一個概念是不是可以回去做個轉告"},{"start":5718.488,"end":5740.284,"text":"當然委員追尋的事我們一定會回去轉告不過還是想要說明一下因為剛才其實幾位委員這邊有提到所謂你們的回應也有談到司法救濟可是他都被錢送回國了那請問司法救濟過程何在這個是我剛才所提到的我剛才所提到的所以請你們做個思考從民眾的觀點好不好 從民眾的觀點好 謝謝部長還有這個廳長"},{"start":5745.588,"end":5753.854,"text":"那廳長就麻煩您把這個概念回去做一個討論好那接下來今天我想接下來可不可以請一下那個陸委會副主委麻煩副主委副主委您好我想過去就本席這邊所知道的那我們在對大陸的政策其實本來就"},{"start":5772.543,"end":5788.021,"text":"充滿爭議那過往的這個經驗大部分的幾個政府都以擱置爭議然後來尋求共識為基本路線但是近期我們感覺這個政府不知道是不是想要創造一個這個政府的特性"},{"start":5789.222,"end":5808.573,"text":"讓我們感覺到不斷的在激化統獨的對立而且透過輿論的審判和行政的懲處來建構所謂政治正確的這個標準塑造只有一種聲音的政治環境那麼這個其實讓人也有感覺好像在藉此獲取一些選舉的紅利"},{"start":5810.495,"end":5824.95,"text":"這樣子的操作手法其實跟所謂的威權時期有一點像你不覺得這樣好像有點破壞民主的精神也會讓整個憲政機關失去民眾的信賴本席在這邊提出來了"},{"start":5825.911,"end":5841.32,"text":"我們可不可以透過交流來找出一個最好的避戰方式本席認為多做交流是最好的避戰方式最近經常在矛盾計畫當中那我們就看到許多國安政策的調整"},{"start":5842.253,"end":5869.263,"text":"例如反滲透法中你們把中國界定成一個境外的敵對勢力然後又恢復了軍事審判軍事軍閥審判還有國防預算又要提高這其實一直有一種氛圍讓大家感覺到我們好像快要面對戰爭我是不是可以建議陸委會你們可不可以考量讓戰略模糊"},{"start":5870.982,"end":5878.802,"text":"來導引區域的穩定你們一定要這樣子壁壘分明嗎讓大家一直普遍活在恐懼的焦慮當中嗎"},{"start":5883.995,"end":5911.124,"text":"是 其實委員我們對陸委會來講我們長期在兩岸交流的工作還有兩岸協商等等這些其實是我們陸委會的職長但是我們也必須強調陸委會還有一塊就是說還有一塊很重要的工作就是對於中共的滲透統戰等等的作為我們是必須想辦法去防堵的這個是我們陸委會的工作之一"},{"start":5911.775,"end":5934.148,"text":"所以你們現在決定強化這一塊然後讓全民跟著你們在這一塊周旋嗎兩岸這30年來有交流但是也有滲透也有統戰都有那現在的話我們這幾年看到的是這個滲透統戰的威脅越來越大而且往往是隨著交流而來的滲透跟統戰"},{"start":5935.149,"end":5950.894,"text":"所以這個對於國內的這個安全來說的話當然是必須要強化跟國務委員報告譬如說自由之家他在評比台灣的這個言論自由跟心言自由的時候他指出台灣對於中共的很多的"},{"start":5951.674,"end":5969.369,"text":"策略跟作為實際上是令人這個防堵的這個作為不夠令人憂心所以自由之家他是把台灣列為最這個亞洲僅次於日本的新聞自由的國家但是他覺得台灣對中共防堵的不夠"},{"start":5970.289,"end":5996.227,"text":"對 本席要談的是這個是你們所謂的專業對中共的防堵但是你們目前提出來的政策已經讓整個社會感覺到非常的焦慮本席這邊就提出來一個建議啦英國的戰略學者Barry Bouson談到說當一個相對弱勢的國家想要藉由軍事化追求安全的時候會造成臨近強權的安全焦慮結果"},{"start":5998.088,"end":6012.814,"text":"導致強化區域衝突的一個風險這種安全困境就是我們目前所面臨的核心風險本席在這邊語重心長的對你們提出建議你們或許有認為交流所帶來的"},{"start":6014.835,"end":6036.193,"text":"統戰的困境但是你們選擇的方式跟做法已經導致整個社會的不安所以有許多這一些個案讓大家看不懂也牽引到本席剛才所談的那在程序正義上或者是對個人人權的保障上已經讓人感到有不公平的現象"},{"start":6036.914,"end":6047.068,"text":"所以本席在這邊對你提出相關的一個建議所以你們專業上碰到的問題本席不希望全民一起陪進去讓社會處在一種焦慮的狀況當中"},{"start":6049.675,"end":6071.044,"text":"我們會在執行相關工作的時候一定對於人權的保障跟程序性的保障所以本行在這邊作為一個人民的出口所以必須要提醒你們現在真的是導引了現在這樣的狀況那請陸委會再做一些檢討那我還是建議多做交流那至於交流後面碰到的細節"},{"start":6072.004,"end":6092.656,"text":"應該是你們陸委會專業要處理的問題是好 謝謝最後很短的時間我可不可以提一個那個司法人員我還是請一下廳長這個還是就請您把這個相關的訊息帶回去那後續如果還有機會我還是希望能夠聽到這個回應那可以請您上來一下大概一分鐘好嗎"},{"start":6093.963,"end":6122.56,"text":"本席這邊對於司法人員的過勞的問題我簡單講就是說其實目前的工作量很大本席這邊有一個相關的調查發現你們的離職率也蠻高的就是檢察官、書記官還有司法人員的相關法官大家評價很高但是對於流動性就是離職率高也是一個很大的問題但是本席實際的了解也就是說你們其實loading也很重"},{"start":6123.18,"end":6144.988,"text":"但是呢人數又沒有辦法擴大那你是不是可以針對這個部分跟本席做一個回應那後續有機會本席這邊也要再跟您確認目前這個部分演繹的如何好那最後一個問題是希望你們能夠看書面報告或者是來跟本席這邊回應一下也就是那個有關於我們的"},{"start":6146.188,"end":6164.7,"text":"裁判費收費標準雖然很長時間沒有做調整但是呢你們在這個應該去年吧幾年前的調整一下子調的讓人家覺得很難理解就是那個訴訟費那這個挑戰你自己回去看一下這個比例你們那個訴訟費的調整現在有到了3%或者是已經超過50%這個您這邊有了解嗎"},{"start":6173.464,"end":6198.355,"text":"你們不太了解這個部分就民眾訴訟權會因為這個訴訟費突然間你們去年有一個行政命令然後調整的這個額度對一般大眾50%這是很高的您對這個問題不了解所以是不是會後針對這個訴訟額度的這個提高你們有分階段分層次但是對於一般大眾影響是最大的你們幾乎調了50%"},{"start":6200.556,"end":6213.079,"text":"所以請你就這個問題 惠後給本席一個相關的報告或是來跟本席這邊做回應 好不好好的 美女 再麻煩照委員的要求處理那下一位我們請王益川委員發言"},{"start":6227.15,"end":6232.312,"text":"主席 我們請教育部陸委會跟移民署好 麻煩三位上台好 首先 先恭喜 感謝這個我們陸委會 移民署你們最近幹的大事都是對的台灣人民都聽你們"},{"start":6256.448,"end":6260.854,"text":"我們稍微仔細講講 哇 現在這陸委會叫移民署 這麼強的台灣人這麼強的處理台灣 叫中國的問題 兩個 先給你們感謝"},{"start":6270.031,"end":6278.561,"text":"教育部次長,請問最近美國國務卿魯比歐外國核心要去美國討論要辦簽證,說要開始啟動社群言論的審查,你有沒有掌握這個訊息?"},{"start":6291.021,"end":6316.709,"text":"有看到報導,但是不清楚,詳細的內容你這樣沒認真,我早上睡就打,你都沒認真看他們就通令他們在美國的各外館美國在各地的外館,如果那些國家的核心要來美國申請學生簽證要對他的這一些過去的一些主張啊只要危害到美國,應該是美國利益啦他就會有一些心災啦就是我們台灣剛好在開始啟動這個事情"},{"start":6319.819,"end":6334.469,"text":"這部分我們有涉及到國安或者是其他的那個陸委會或國安單位他們那邊會先審查會先審查對如果來申請要來做教育譬如教育文化交流的時候會先經過那邊來審查好那既然有審查那陸委會你們會怎麼審查"},{"start":6339.841,"end":6365.727,"text":"如果委員講的是學生的部分學生的部分我們目前對學生的部分確實是沒有我們是對於來交流的學者或是教育界或是文化界的人士我們會review他的過去的言論跟一些立場包括有沒有矮化台灣的地位等等但是對學生的部分"},{"start":6366.187,"end":6376.689,"text":"目前確實是沒有所以是入台症的部分就對了對就是短期來交流的對沒錯那學生沒有學生沒有那你認為學生該不該審查好這題太難了你回答他先看看謝謝委員提示我們會去適合這個問題第二個你們有沒有發現有職業學生職業學生過去確實有有喔過去確實有存在有發現沒有"},{"start":6396.232,"end":6408.565,"text":"有發現?有查到?要請他們回去嗎?過去確實有這樣的例子要請他們回去嗎?只要我們有發現,都會請他們回去你們有發現嗎?過去有例子你講得很保守"},{"start":6413.857,"end":6432.327,"text":"那接下來 一樣就是說如果這一個不管是中國學生 外國人都一樣 教育部如果有這些人就對了 要來申請學生簽證來台灣要在社群裡面 每天都要發 台灣是中國的一部分啦"},{"start":6434.034,"end":6453.266,"text":"台灣是中國一部分,不然就像上次那些中國職業學生來台灣交流罵那些基金會那些什麼中國台灣隊、中國台北隊,這種的這個核心啊,像這種的像這種的喔,理政委啦,或是你們對於研究看來像這種的喔,要申請來台灣打車,過去不要來啦"},{"start":6457.264,"end":6477.214,"text":"他的言論如果涉及矮化台灣有涉及到國安的問題我們也一樣會請那個外交啦或者是陸委會這邊來做一個審查就是說他們這樣的言論是否適宜來訪這部分是有一些管制的好我說這事情會越來越嚴重會越來越嚴重因為一定會職業學生的啦就訓練好才會來啦來這裡做統戰的啦第二"},{"start":6485.293,"end":6508.107,"text":"市長 教育部市長 你知不知道去年 一整年 台灣的學生被推到中國交流的多少團 多少人 你知道嗎目前 詳細的資料他都有登錄啦 有一個登錄平台那那個詳細的資料 我這邊這事情很嚴重的今天一個暑假 應該差不多200團有啦暑假喔"},{"start":6512.771,"end":6533.774,"text":"台灣的阿新喔 希望大氣中 這樣統戰我們兩霸團喔來 梁副主委喔 來我們台灣的阿新去那裡交流啊 去那裡坐桌子 叫人吃飯 開會啦各式各樣的民意啦 人家要跟我們統戰"},{"start":6535.643,"end":6544.692,"text":"我們有一個高雄立刻起身說 別吃了 我們回家 搞什麼東西我們是來讓你們統戰的 我們是來交流的 有人這樣嗎?沒有 我沒有聽過那都聽到之後才回來聽到之後 這個有高雄歡迎議會嗎?沒有聽過沒有聽過 還繼續去?對啊"},{"start":6556.944,"end":6574.639,"text":"繼續我們陸委會都不歡迎我應該這樣講就是說中國各個各級台辦他都有KPI就是一年要花多少預算然後要拉台灣多少青年學生到他們的"},{"start":6575.479,"end":6590.713,"text":"譬如說湖北省或是上海或是什麼每一個地方它都有這樣的KPI要拉多少人去對 然後就到我們的高中大學嘛到台灣的高中大學那通常都不是透過校方而是透過學校裡面的某一個老師"},{"start":6592.134,"end":6600.002,"text":"那老師有嚴重喔 人家是要用社團 用協會 還有那老師直接打給我開課總之我如果要做一段期的 通識課 要做一段期那去到那裡說教多少 教多少 教不到的 教不到就說 啊 那就有台商出錢啦所以同學喔 那台商對我們很好 所以你們基本也不用教那麼多啦 有這種的對不對"},{"start":6614.913,"end":6639.992,"text":"當然有啊 現在譬如說就是你只要出機票費 然後落地時數全包然後還有一些什麼阿這你都沒有管喔 這要用通來通去 你都沒有管這個我們是長期都有在注意那我們會 如果有必要的話我們就會動用兩岸關係條例33條之一的合作行為或是其他的如果有涉及幫中共發展組織的話 那個就是用反滲透法"},{"start":6641.013,"end":6646.758,"text":"第三個重點 台灣隊到冠軍進入決賽 中國團 中國核心 通緝記者說就是他要說中國台灣隊怎麼越來越厲害 那幾個 兩天可以來嗎"},{"start":6662.594,"end":6682.782,"text":"我們都有對於相關人士的發言但我們會有註記註記意思就是說,當你想要再進來台灣的時候我們在審查的過程之中,我們就會把你過去的言行給考慮進去沒有啦,你就直接...那新聞就不可以再來,還要審查,還要這麼狠,還要審查中國本宮說明,我們一眾要吃豆腐,要去中國台灣隊黨是在中國台灣隊"},{"start":6690.545,"end":6714.67,"text":"這個委員你放心,我們所謂的註記審查就是很嚴厲的審查好啦,我看你們都為了兩岸和諧,我知道啦,可是你們這次的手法怎麼也不錯啦好來,第三,我們現在要捏,這可能移民署齁,這中國人要捏中華民國的新聞情啦是現在有一些那些算是在倒空的,說那邊六年,該做四年啦是"},{"start":6717.568,"end":6727.093,"text":"我們的政府現在有講喔 我們現在境外敵對勢力就一共而已 叫中國了結果他們可以捏新穩定的連線是最大的外南馬來西亞越來越久 他們馬來西亞外南 什麼泰國 黑米我們的境外敵對勢力喔 他們要捏我們的新穩定 老闆境外敵對勢力要捏新穩定 現在最低他們是在爭笑的喔 在你們幾天啊 什麼幾天啊"},{"start":6747.438,"end":6756.612,"text":"沒有 事實上跟委員報告由8年轉到6年 這個也都是經過那時候所有的一個修法 陸委會 我們跟陸委會好 現在情勢變更了是"},{"start":6759.915,"end":6775.822,"text":"什麼改六改四 改到十啦 改到四 改回去 改回去十世界各國要來台灣捏新婚情的 都比照我們的外匯業 境外敵對勢力 要捏我們的新婚情 最低電到頭照 這樣對不對"},{"start":6780.956,"end":6790.194,"text":"你是不是在驚訝我們會跟陸委會 因為這是兩岸關係條例所規定的那我想委員的指導 我們會跟陸委會陸委會"},{"start":6793.444,"end":6820.58,"text":"你過去要創一個最大的,中國人創最大的唯一境外敵對勢力,只有中華民國身份證是全世界最要來,只有中華民國身份證的外國人,期限最大的我應該跟委員報告一下就是說外國人他其實是四到八年,實際上是四年到八年你不要這樣講,人四年了嗎,你告訴我那大陸人是四年到六年他們有四年了嗎"},{"start":6821.74,"end":6848.987,"text":"那實際上外國人不可能四年就拿到不可能四年就拿到所以其實確實因為我們兩岸之間特殊的關係那從這個兩岸人民條例1992年到現在其實中間經過很多次的政黨輪替那很多的規定老實講就是在那個年代它有它的道理但是現在未必有道理最後我問一個問題要申請入台證"},{"start":6850.348,"end":6872.427,"text":"申請來台一親的這種居留證要申請中華民國身份證這三個證有哪幾個他要宣誓效忠中華民國以陸配來說沒有以陸配來說都沒有中國人要來納中華民國身份證要宣誓效忠中華民國"},{"start":6873.69,"end":6891.083,"text":"沒有 目前的制度沒有這個部分我們有看到很多立委提出來要修法的工作所以我們覺得這個部分如果委員們的討論有取得共識我們也支持你啦 你在煮湯啦"},{"start":6893.988,"end":6913.157,"text":"你要中華民國身份證,不免宣誓效忠中華民國先來說我是中國人,我國家是中華人民共和國我就是因為我拿中華民國身份證而已,我沒有認同你啦,我就是中國人啦中華人民共和國他就比較好人啦我沒有認同你中華民國,我就是要拿那張啦,這就不太合理啦這你也比較主動的,我們這個立法院喔,一大堆在那裡倒空的喔,那群都不會有這個行為"},{"start":6922.242,"end":6947.939,"text":"國家要有台獨 國家要有台獨 台灣人在看的是台獨美國這沒辦法 美國這大罷免跟我說處理事情嘛啊 可是我們的政府要有台獨啊我們的政府這條 我在講什麼四年 八年 六年最早啦 你不要說境外敵對最早你也叫各國的都一樣要全世界 台灣唯一的境外敵對勢力你要中外民國新聞局 你要最快"},{"start":6949.873,"end":6968.986,"text":"現在還要逼四年 要修啊 你要四年還不用效忠中華民國好 謝謝委員提醒 這個部分我們會去做制度上的檢討好 加油啦 這次陸委會叫移民署表現得很好繼續加油 我要跟你們講一件事你們要緊表態 加油 臨時再回到我再問一遍好 謝謝"},{"start":6977,"end":6977.64,"text":"主席好"},{"start":6998.235,"end":7024.8,"text":"我應該是要等一下要請這個我們司法院的列席代表不過今天我們這個來是我們行政訴訟的這個懲戒廳廳長那可能跟我們今天主題,我盡量但是因為是司法院有一些牽涉司法院的選擇還是要等一下請這個我們陳廳長上台,等一下那這個我想我們今天的主題我們今天主題列的我們這個主題叫做"},{"start":7027.045,"end":7047.292,"text":"這個言論自由不在,界限誰說了算,國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界,進行專題報告這個想法,我想這個,它大概就是,其實它有兩個層次第一個就是說,在我國現在的制度裡面,言論自由的界限在哪裡,這是第一個層次的問題"},{"start":7048.51,"end":7067.944,"text":"第二個是說第二個層次是國家介入特定的政治言論它的界限在哪裡它其實是兩個層次啦一個是廣泛的言論自由另外一個是說這個國家介入特定政治言論那這個呢這個這個有很多的這個我想這個"},{"start":7069.69,"end":7096.911,"text":"主席今天會列這樣子的主題我想應該就是跟這個時事有關要不然為什麼今天不是討論我國宗教自由之界限而是討論言論自由之界限因為主席對於現在的這些時事有一些認為說有一些討論的必要他才會列這個主題所以今天這個主題有很多種討論方式第一種你可以像政論節目一樣的討論你也可以做法學跟學術相當學理上面的討論"},{"start":7099.397,"end":7119.563,"text":"那但是這種時事議題你難免你就會牽涉到對於這些政治的評價所以我現在想我們還是先從學理上面來談我盡量希望從學理上來談而不是以政論節目的角度來談那我現在是不是請司法院我們的城廷長麻煩廷長委員好廷長好"},{"start":7127.652,"end":7152.53,"text":"這個我們有關我國言論自由的界限包括這個國家介入特定政治言論的這個界限言論自由的界限這些東西事實上在我國的法治上面過去的大法官會議解釋跟現在的憲法法庭判決事實上我們是不是沒有討論過這件事情啊我們主席間列這個案子是不是說因為我們過去我們的法治上面都沒有在討論我們言論自由的界限"},{"start":7155.027,"end":7173.78,"text":"委員其實大法官已經做了多號的解釋多號的解釋啦 我的PD上面都有寫啦這個大法官做了無數的對於言論自由界線做了非常多的解釋那我們就學理上面來講我想這個我們學理大家學法律的應該這個都看得懂"},{"start":7175.231,"end":7193.469,"text":"這個有關言論自由大概就幾個層次的討論一個是事前審查的問題另外還有一些象徵性的言論像焚燒國旗我沒有講話但是我用動作來表達言論這種象徵性言論這兩個大概不在今天討論範圍內再來就是事後審查是一個重點事後審查目前學理上面大概"},{"start":7194.631,"end":7218.305,"text":"採取就是這個所謂雙軌跟雙接這個理論這個聽講知道吧知道嘛雙軌所謂雙軌就是非針對性言論的內容跟針對言論性的內容就我不是針對言論的內容的問題的言論自由問題例如說我受刑人能不能對外通信我受刑人能不能對外表示什麼就身份他跟內容無關的另外就是跟內容有關的這樣雙軌對不對"},{"start":7220.046,"end":7233.081,"text":"那雙軌裡面我們今天討論的大概就是針對言論內容是限制的今天主席所列的這個所謂特定政治言論顯然就是指針對言論的內容那針對言論內容裡面大概學理上面把它分成雙階對不對兩個不同階這個"},{"start":7236.806,"end":7263.568,"text":"不同階層的言論他的審查到底寬鬆還嚴格是不一樣的對不對一種叫做高價值的言論一種叫做中低價值的言論這個你大概知道吧所謂高價值言論就是什麼呢就像這個有關於政治我們今天列的這個政治、宗教、文學、科學、藝術這高價值的這個要做對於他言論自由限制要比較寬鬆他審查要比較寬鬆"},{"start":7267.83,"end":7291.531,"text":"對於中低價值的言論 什麼叫中低價值的言論 像商業的廣告 商業言論啦毀謗啦 像這個猥褻性言語啦 像仇恨性語言這個都是比較低階 這個要做嚴格的審查 對不對是不是這樣子 廳長這個理論你知道嗎所以一個 在學理上面它分的其實很清楚啊一個是高階的 一個是中低階的啊那我們今天就來看看這個個案啊"},{"start":7292.662,"end":7319.531,"text":"什麼叫做政治言論什麼叫做仇恨性言論一個是高階的言論自由一個是中低階的言論自由我今天如果說我主張台灣獨立這個是政治的言論對不對這是高階的保護他必須要比較寬鬆我主張台灣獨立這個可以吧但是我今天如果說我主張用暗殺來達成台灣獨立我主張用恐怖攻擊來達成台灣獨立"},{"start":7321.226,"end":7344.255,"text":"那這個就不是政治言論了喔這就馬上掉到所謂仇恨性言論對不對對不對好那我今天主張兩岸統一這個是政治言論對不對這個OK這個高階的受比較寬鬆的保護我今天主張學習台灣我主張用武力用戰爭用侵略用暴力"},{"start":7346.529,"end":7365.365,"text":"來達成兩岸統一我主張五統這個就不是政治言論了對不對這跟剛剛一樣他現在就掉進了所謂仇恨性言論了對不對是不是 廷長我剛這樣講對不對這是委員的見解我們尊重一個是政治言論一個是仇恨性言論這是不一樣的"},{"start":7367.045,"end":7387.711,"text":"就像我今天說我想跟你交往這是我的言論自由但是我跟你說你如果不跟我交往我就打你這就不是言論自由了對不對是不是廳長我想跟你交往我可以這樣講嗎我跟任何人都可以這樣講對不對這是言論自由我說"},{"start":7388.988,"end":7410.264,"text":"你若不跟我交往我就打你這是不是言論自由這當然就不是言論自由了嘛這就是仇恨性的我剛剛講的仇恨性言論了嘛分的這麼清楚所以不要混淆現在這個案子到底是所謂特主席所講的政治言論還是我剛剛講國際公約裡面所講的仇恨性言論這個要分清楚當然啦這個仇恨性言論"},{"start":7417.602,"end":7443.628,"text":"這個仇恨性言論什麼樣限制言論自由都應該要有法律依據啦這個剛剛大家都有講那我國對於仇恨性言論自由的限制有沒有法律依據廷長有沒有法律依據我告訴你因為時間如果按照委員剛剛舉例子那可能像刑法有一些的規範刑法有一些啦齁另外整個普遍的仇恨性言論有"},{"start":7445.441,"end":7465.452,"text":"有關於公民與政治權利國際公約也就是所謂的公正公約我國是立法院通過審議通過實施的對不對是按照公正公約裡面的第20條第一項任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳因應法律禁止之這個是不是跟國內法等同國內法的效力是是嗎"},{"start":7467.372,"end":7488.18,"text":"所以在國內現在這個案子我們鼓吹戰爭他就是違反目前的國內法這個是毫無意義的因為公正公約我們還立法了立法了一個公正公約的這個經濟社會文化公約兩公約的施行辦法已經把它國內法化了已經把它國內法化了好我們不要講國內法我們再講國際法我們講國際外國的判例在德國德國在這個"},{"start":7496.864,"end":7499.892,"text":"德國在2020年9月有一個叫做尼克斯"},{"start":7501.165,"end":7528.032,"text":"訴德國的一個案子他去求職結果他求職沒有被錄取原因是因為他在社群媒體上面有一張照片他的後面有一張圖是過去納粹的這個希姆萊親衛隊希姆萊的照片川軍服的照片掛在他後面所以他用這個理由不錄取他結果他訴訟到憲法法庭在德國是連掛個照片都不行納粹照片你比個納粹手勢都不行為什麼"},{"start":7529.671,"end":7544.2,"text":"這就是我講的仇恨性言論美國最近2025年1月17他們聯邦最高法院就直接他們就說有關TikTok不賣就禁他不違反憲法沒有違憲"},{"start":7545.848,"end":7566.002,"text":"他的理由是未來現在Ttalk在收集的這些個資會危害到未來如果我們跟中國發生戰爭的時候危害到未來戰爭上面的危險他不是現在立即的危險喔他是針對未來的危險我現在就可以禁止所以這都非常清楚了所以在這次的這個案例 亞亞這個案例"},{"start":7568.783,"end":7590.276,"text":"我們大家在講 居然還有人跳出來把言論自由針對言論自由把政治性的言論跟醜恨性的言論分不清楚我剛剛講的 我主張台獨是政治性言論我主張用恐怖攻擊實現台獨這不是政治言論我主張統一是政治言論我主張戰爭 武力 學習台灣 武統這個不是政治性言論"},{"start":7598.604,"end":7606.086,"text":"所以我們來看看這次這個案例齁這次這個案例我看一下齁這個網紅齁網紅他在網路上講說大陸武力統一台灣已經不需要其他理由這是他講的他說這個遲遲不如統這是不對的"},{"start":7625.305,"end":7643.943,"text":"他說希望四川艦隊軍功利第一這就是收復台灣這就是武統啊這就是武統啊現在我請陸委會對不起請回這個廳長請回我請陸委會梁副主委你在上來的時間我闡述一下"},{"start":7645.626,"end":7669.357,"text":"你在飛機上面講說我要炸毀這台飛機這當然不是言論自由我在集滿人潮的捷運車廂上面說我要殺光捷運所有的乘客這當然不是言論自由我到鄰居家門口說我要放火燒房子這當然不是言論自由那為什麼我到這個國家來說我要武力學習你這個國家變成言論自由呢為什麼"},{"start":7673.479,"end":7698.051,"text":"主委這次這案子這三位網紅他們有沒有中華民國的國籍他們有沒有領中華民國身份證他們沒有中華民國的國籍只有居留他們只有居留嘛換句話說第一個我們所討論的層次有關於國民的所有的保障跟他們都還沒有關係對不對他們還不是國民嘛對不對是對他們只是居留許可而已是根據兩岸人權關係條例的居留許可對不對對"},{"start":7700.299,"end":7724.868,"text":"這就好像住在你家裡的人如果是你兒子你老婆他是家人如果是你朋友從南部上來住在家裡你說可以我可以住你家嗎你說可以那你就是拘留嘛對不對但是你今天是我兒子你來住我家裡那你是家人啊那你今天一個客人你說一個朋友說我來住你家你說好到你客廳以後說我要放火燒你家我要殺光你全家"},{"start":7727.745,"end":7739.551,"text":"那我說我沒有打他我只說不好意思我就不讓你你就不要住在我家請你出去這是不是很合理是那我們這一次我們這個撤銷居留許可是不是就是這樣的情形"},{"start":7741.596,"end":7760.289,"text":"對我們來說就是任何人如果他只有居留身份的話所以他實際上並沒有辦法和中華民國國民做到同樣的權利義務沒有錯所以他如果只有居留身份的話那我們就是根據兩岸關係條例處理沒錯我們這次所有都是根據兩岸關係"},{"start":7761.75,"end":7770.996,"text":"兩岸關係條例上面的規定所做的行政行為根本就不牽涉到言論自由的問題對不對所以我想最後現在這社會是似是而非的這樣的說法這概念這麼清楚"},{"start":7783.994,"end":7809.426,"text":"北一女還貴為北一女的老師說什麼我們把中國視為境外敵對勢力那我們家人住在大陸我的親人住在中國我的親人變成境外敵對勢力講這種沒有常識的講法二次大戰的時候你有去跟蔣介石講說你為什麼對日宣戰我有家人住在日本啊你為什麼把日本變成敵人那我的家人不就變成敵人了毫無常識啊"},{"start":7814.451,"end":7839.445,"text":"所以這一次這個就是一個照妖鏡這就是海水退了你就知道誰沒有穿褲子在這個時候這次這三個網紅的案子跳出來講言論自由的人請大家就看清楚他們有沒有穿褲子以上好 謝謝那我們先做那個會議的程序宣告稍後再胡適耀委員訓導完畢後休息五分鐘那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":7847.196,"end":7866.016,"text":"好謝謝主席主席在那個發言之前我想要做一下譴責就是因為今天呢我們邀請非常多的單位但是呢邀請的首長很多都用請假的方式那有一些當然因為在可能其他的委員會我知道他們有這個業務報告"},{"start":7868.439,"end":7886.85,"text":"那這個就情有可原但是也很多也不曉得為什麼就直接就用請假方式我覺得這對我們司法法治委員會是相當的不尊重這部分一定要這個云以譴責來那個表示我們的意見好那接下來我請我們的移民署今天是是副署長還有陸委會也是副主委"},{"start":7901.159,"end":7921.517,"text":"王委員有關今天有很多人請教這件事情我們剛剛有處理剛剛有委員有提出來那我這邊的意思是說因為有一些人之前也都沒有跟我提那我今天早上才知道那確實有兩位部會首長是在國防外交委員會那邊對我知道有的是其他的他就是"},{"start":7922.217,"end":7945.586,"text":"給我們的理由就是因公務啦那事實上細節是什麼我們會再了解對因為主席我剛剛就講就是說因為我知道有一些首長他是有在其他的委員會而且事前請假那如果是還臨時性的請假只是說用公務我覺得這是非常非常不尊重我們司法法制委員會而且你要請假你也可以提早來說而不是這樣臨時性的來通知這個我們的"},{"start":7949.648,"end":7966.454,"text":"招委跟主席這是非常非常不禮貌的所以我們當然予以譴責謝謝主席今天的我們的主要的這個題目叫做言論自由事實上過去包含民進黨"},{"start":7967.634,"end":7986.184,"text":"非常遵從的鄭南榮先生百分之百的言論自由賴清德總統在選舉的時候也說他支持百分之百的言論自由到了最近呢賴清德總統又去祭拜鄭南榮先生仍然在講百分之百的言論自由"},{"start":7987.245,"end":8002.638,"text":"但是現在看起來民進黨執政之後這個所謂的百分之百的言論自由這個百分之百它的含水量變得非常非常的高因為它加了很多的前提好 可是今天呢我為什麼來找移民署跟陸委會"},{"start":8005.26,"end":8018.754,"text":"因為最近這兩天 大家都可以看到不只是網路上的炸鍋 還有我們各個民意代表選民服務我相信包含民進黨的委員因為在你們的選區裡面 在你們的選民裡面也有很多來自於陸配或者陸配的家庭"},{"start":8026.883,"end":8036.745,"text":"特別是最近所去調查的要求來台灣尤其在這次影響最深的就是民國93年之前而且你取得身份證的這些陸配所以可以看到最近其實我們收到的很多的選民陳情是來自於他們的子女是來自於他們子女因為他們到台灣來嫁到台灣來都已經二三十年了"},{"start":8056.708,"end":8077.968,"text":"結果我們現在呢我們的陸委會跟移民署卻是一個鋪天蓋地的要求已經來台灣二三十年的陸配要求他們在三個月之內必須提出證明在中國大陸已經撤銷戶籍撤銷國籍的相關的"},{"start":8081.671,"end":8102.896,"text":"證明否則的話三個月內就要被除籍就要被除籍所以可以看到陸配的家庭一片哀嚎有很多的子女說今天難道我的媽媽要變成政治人球了嗎我的媽媽來了二三十年她很多的原生家庭可能原生家庭都不在了"},{"start":8103.576,"end":8126.198,"text":"那他如何到已經來台灣三十年了然後突然要求他三個月內去拿到這些資料否則你在台灣就被取消戶籍所以我想請問一下移民署跟陸委會我也看到你們昨天也分別的宣布一些補救的措施因為這個實在是我覺得對台灣"},{"start":8127.72,"end":8135.647,"text":"來講台灣真的應該還是很有人道的而且對於陸配的家庭你如果說你今天說什麼以國安調查就是你來台灣可能幾年內那他比較好去取得這些資料可是事實上因為在後來我們的疫情之後這些其實都已經清查過了"},{"start":8147.077,"end":8171.816,"text":"最先影響最大的一批反而是來台灣二三十年的這些陸配所以我想請問一下陸委會或移民署你們的補救措施是什麼還是說通通只是用個案處理還是某一些程度你們可以用通案的方式去處理不要造成這些陸配家庭他們的大恐慌"},{"start":8172.939,"end":8195.551,"text":"跟委員報告一下 其實根據《兩岸條例9-1》在2004年的修法就是說在2004年修法之前 已經拿到台灣身份的陸配他必須在六個月之內繳回在大陸儲籍的證明否則就是要去除掉台灣的身份"},{"start":8197.785,"end":8222.854,"text":"現在有發生很多啊他2004年民國93年20幾年前而且那個時候拿到身份證要8年對不對所以他很多都已經來了真的二三十年了當時他拿出來的時候他說他都已經繳過那現在他拿不出來所以我還想說你們現在都是要用個案處理還是有通案處理辦法委員講的沒有錯就是說其實按照法律條文如果要嚴格執行"},{"start":8226.898,"end":8241.421,"text":"這些都沒有繳的 實際上政府機關就必須要把他台灣的身份去除掉你們二三十年不執行這個法律所以因為有這樣的問題所以我們現在做清查然後給大家時間回去拿其實就是在法律之外三個月之內要繳出來時間合理嗎"},{"start":8253.464,"end":8264.222,"text":"呃 我覺得我們現在街道他來台灣三十年你讓他三個月內找出來不然的話你就變成政治人球你要讓他淪為政治難民嗎我們現在有街道他的原生家庭可能都不在啦"},{"start":8265.582,"end":8286.879,"text":"原生家庭在不在跟他有沒有辦法回到那邊的派出所取得文件那是兩回事情就算他家庭不在了他如果能夠回到那邊的派出所取得文件那個還是可以的三個月之內要回去那我們現在的三個月之內要回去他即便臥床了對不對跟委員報告一下他有任何的原因了沒有錯所以"},{"start":8287.299,"end":8310.568,"text":"任何人任何這個家庭他如果說他覺得他提出說他確實有什麼樣的困難譬如說他說這個當年他的身份證件是從什麼救災總會來幫他申請有特別提到有的已經交給當時的中華救災總會了那這個東西我們都要去了解到底有沒有這回事"},{"start":8311.528,"end":8331.324,"text":"所以我覺得現在對我們來講的話就是說我們願意讓所有的收到我們通知的這些家庭或是陸配他們提出來說他們有什麼樣的理由是確實有辦法拿回去因為這兩天我知道我剛剛講過其實因為我們其實服務案件是不分藍綠的"},{"start":8332.685,"end":8341.028,"text":"你能講說陸配只投給在野黨嗎我真的覺得門心自問副主委你也是明代出身你該講你當時的選民沒有陸配會來自陸配家庭嗎今天讓他們雞飛狗跳"},{"start":8348.011,"end":8356.134,"text":"讓他們覺得飽受這些壓力合理嗎你於心何忍我要問的是今天很多的委員通通來找昨天移民署也來我辦公室來做說明我們看很多委員都在急著在處理這些選民服務因為他們非常著急三個月其實很短的時間"},{"start":8371.26,"end":8396.035,"text":"好 所以我才要求再透過這一支諮詢我希望 包含陸委會跟移民署你們應該要有一些通案性的解決老師說 我們在很多有法律的部分比如說我們什麼追稅 即便是確定的欠稅它的追溯期也是15年啊通緝犯可以通緝幾年 對不對你只有30年之前 你要求你給我交出來"},{"start":8397.731,"end":8411.001,"text":"你覺得合理嗎是不是我們如果在很多的法律上都有一個追溯的期間老實說啦如果他們是共匪他們是共諜潛伏在這邊二三十年你們自己政府都不執法啊剛講說這是依法執行對啊什麼時候定的法呢2004年啊民國93年距離現在多久了"},{"start":8421.289,"end":8436.688,"text":"我說難聽點 這個裡面國民黨執政 民進黨執政 民進黨弱權這個很重要那你們過去九年在睡覺嗎是不是 為什麼要讓老百姓這麼痛苦好 我因為我時間有限 我可不可以請移民署你們有 我知道你們今天也被罵爆了啦 對不對"},{"start":8439.614,"end":8464.333,"text":"所以請問移民署有沒有一些相關的一些通案的方式可以去解決呢謝謝委員在這裡先跟委員說明一下其實兩岸分配以來有36萬的大陸配合其中已經獲得在台定居的共有14萬多人那我們經查大多數的人都有繳付上司員籍的證明"},{"start":8465.074,"end":8489.767,"text":"那目前這個部分沒有繳納的這個部分我們現在大概有多少萬我這裡有好幾萬人一萬出頭那這個部分可能我們也是在想說它是不是疫情的關係或者其他的因素比方說它的健康的因素或者有少數政治風險比方法輪功的"},{"start":8490.287,"end":8515.839,"text":"比方假設這些他們沒有辦法返回中國大陸來辦理我們會就這些個案我們來做處理那民眾如果在實際上有真的無法克服的困難那我們也開一個設有服務的電子信箱還有我們全省有22個服務站都有電話我們也希望說"},{"start":8516.699,"end":8531.572,"text":"這些個案他即使來反映那我們針對這些特殊的個案我們會同陸委會跟海基會來嚴處然後尋求一個妥適的解決之道我要講的就是說我們現在各委員辦公室說實在你們也確實"},{"start":8532.913,"end":8541.977,"text":"也一定疲於奔命 但疲於奔命也是應該的 因為大家都碰到我們現在有的委員甚至說 我們大家聯合起來聯合起來 因為我這邊有兩三個 其他委員有兩三個 都有這樣大家聯合起來一起把它說清楚講明白所以我希望我在這邊 為什麼要透過諮詢 我希望"},{"start":8553.482,"end":8563.407,"text":"移民署還有陸委會能夠延伸一個就是他可以適用是屬於比較通案型的有一些 比如說在什麼樣的狀況之下你可以給予他緩衝的期間比如我剛剛講說有的因為他在臥床啊你讓他怎麼去啊你要讓他怎麼去呢 對不對或者他現在真的就已經沒有辦法他認為他真的原生家不是說你原生家庭啊沒有關係啊反正你就去啊 對不對"},{"start":8581.677,"end":8607.548,"text":"不是每一個 這個陸配尤其他可能有一些年齡了 對不對所以我覺得我們今天在處理這個事情的時候第一個基於人道的處理 好不好因為其實我們現在接獲的大部分都是來自於陸配的子女而且他們憤憤不平覺得怎麼會突然他的媽媽要變成有這樣的一個待遇"},{"start":8608.735,"end":8619.547,"text":"好不好 所以我希望你們能夠在最短的時間內有一些可以通案的就通案 我剛才講了嘛第一個 我們先要怪罪是什麼政府你不作為啊 是不是二十多年了"},{"start":8624.079,"end":8645.604,"text":"你如果依法是二十幾年前定的法律你政府不作為現在造成人民他的不便請問一下錯誤的是人民還是錯誤的是政府請問一下副主委這個事情其實從2004年到現在藍綠政黨都輪替過所以這個事情我認為就是它不是藍綠的問題而是這個制度的問題然後"},{"start":8650.385,"end":8678.132,"text":"你執行就有問題嘛沒有錯那所以委員講的沒有錯啦就是說我們會去設計一些這個怎麼樣的標準譬如說年齡或者是健康這些東西我們都會把它考慮進去但是因為現在的法律規定就是這樣子我們也沒有辦法說透過解釋然後做不執行所以目前的話我們會在法律跟人道之間做一個最大的權衡謝謝而且我覺得"},{"start":8679.412,"end":8705.321,"text":"我覺得這個當然因為現在很特殊我覺得該修法就修法我剛剛講了我們在很多的法律上的追溯我們都還定定追溯期了對不對然後現在是無限期的這樣子一直直接的追溯所以我覺得這個當然這是比較長期的但是在最短期我希望能夠有一個比較屬於通案性的來協助這些不知所措的這些家庭好不好"},{"start":8708.758,"end":8716.791,"text":"謝謝那我們現在會請吳思耀委員發言那依照剛剛會議宣告吳思耀委員詢問完畢之後休息五分鐘"},{"start":8726.134,"end":8754.487,"text":"謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該"},{"start":8755.327,"end":8777.276,"text":"要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢"},{"start":8780.328,"end":8802.807,"text":"現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉 當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前 他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長 沒有請假 沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢 居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張"},{"start":8804.706,"end":8831.497,"text":"韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來"},{"start":8832.797,"end":8844.911,"text":"當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假"},{"start":8847.954,"end":8868.907,"text":"這當然該譴責 同樣的標準當然該譴責 更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假 什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯"},{"start":8870.151,"end":8879.734,"text":"意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸"},{"start":8888.797,"end":8912.748,"text":"立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案 召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條"},{"start":8914.685,"end":8939.411,"text":"給予他們不用來規避、迴避、監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊"},{"start":8940.43,"end":8955.428,"text":"所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天"},{"start":8960.697,"end":8982.886,"text":"更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長、行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛"},{"start":8985.635,"end":9010.894,"text":"所以就程序 論程序 該譴責就譴責 標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好 謝謝主席 不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題 就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看價值來說沒關係 我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣 因為我當召委就是部會首長"},{"start":9011.795,"end":9034.32,"text":"不是不能請假 如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的"},{"start":9035.233,"end":9058.984,"text":"同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度我們不知道因為以前我們這個慣例那至少我們現在開始"},{"start":9059.724,"end":9062.007,"text":"其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪"},{"start":9078.618,"end":9105.764,"text":"那言論自由也不是無法無天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛但是言論自由一樣不是因為他是自由就可以無法無天他同樣要受制於法規的規範所以呢鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣下頁"},{"start":9107.93,"end":9128.391,"text":"我多次在委員會分享吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由"},{"start":9129.366,"end":9147.711,"text":"但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種"},{"start":9154.087,"end":9175.907,"text":"一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客、政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種"},{"start":9177.372,"end":9193.52,"text":"一種是在台灣釋放的支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是複查柏中你知道嗎"},{"start":9195.172,"end":9212.37,"text":"這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判"},{"start":9213.73,"end":9236.902,"text":"陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變"},{"start":9238.137,"end":9266.252,"text":"本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長 您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎"},{"start":9269.589,"end":9270.338,"text":"很抱歉我沒有看過"},{"start":9271.921,"end":9300.207,"text":"這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長啊不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這一部紀錄片"},{"start":9301.627,"end":9305.72,"text":"拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名"},{"start":9308.826,"end":9336.42,"text":"那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖 下一頁但是換了到台北市"},{"start":9337.521,"end":9362.742,"text":"您知道嗎 同樣的一部片在台北市是青年舉辦的 本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討"},{"start":9364.29,"end":9386.835,"text":"縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎"},{"start":9388.889,"end":9397.177,"text":"當然不是言論自由嘛 對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡"},{"start":9398.649,"end":9427.474,"text":"我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放"},{"start":9428.43,"end":9454.321,"text":"但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛是所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由它不是單選題它有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化"},{"start":9456.007,"end":9466.828,"text":"不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約"},{"start":9468.072,"end":9497.432,"text":"或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都在一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下演我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法"},{"start":9498.552,"end":9519.528,"text":"德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁"},{"start":9520.427,"end":9538.966,"text":"看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法"},{"start":9539.966,"end":9567.586,"text":"要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的"},{"start":9568.82,"end":9592.678,"text":"再下一頁芬蘭芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑"},{"start":9596.961,"end":9614.581,"text":"這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁"},{"start":9615.752,"end":9640.848,"text":"當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利 孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全 這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢 夏業"},{"start":9642.253,"end":9669.088,"text":"台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際趨勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長"},{"start":9672.898,"end":9693.602,"text":"我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嗎不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好 下一頁"},{"start":9695.489,"end":9716.901,"text":"我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們聽長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益"},{"start":9717.461,"end":9740.801,"text":"所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以"},{"start":9743.576,"end":9772.028,"text":"剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的"},{"start":9772.788,"end":9790.721,"text":"那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的和尚相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁"},{"start":9791.582,"end":9810.854,"text":"所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制"},{"start":9811.855,"end":9830.455,"text":"要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒制政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且手段與目的之間必須有重要的關聯"},{"start":9831.616,"end":9854.646,"text":"所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享 國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問 不管是買菜的朋友 還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼?很重要很重要 言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣 大家都有這樣子的共識 但是"},{"start":9855.606,"end":9874.023,"text":"永樂自由不能去說要帶人到幾個月了不能說叫我再來打台灣 血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面來看待這個嚴肅的問題"},{"start":9876.685,"end":9892.468,"text":"鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場 也是我的結論好 我們繼續加油 辛苦大家 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們接下來休息五分鐘"},{"start":10257.585,"end":10281.353,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言好 謝謝主席 我想首先先請"},{"start":10285.911,"end":10300.416,"text":"陸委會和移民署是兩副主委嗎兩副主委和陳副署長所以委員好"},{"start":10302.156,"end":10316.526,"text":"副主委好還有副署長好我想就是從昨天到今天在整個新聞上面還有我包含本席也收到很多的民眾打電話來抱怨"},{"start":10319.437,"end":10343.604,"text":"陸委會跟移民署發了這個通知書就是要求這些陸配他們要檢附在大陸的儲戶證明然後在這裡你們寫的法令依據是兩岸人民關係條例的第九條之一以及第十七條第五項第三款的規定我首先想請教移民署你們這次發出去多少份的通知書"},{"start":10345.465,"end":10367.496,"text":"八號委員我們這次共發了一萬多份多少一萬多少份一萬兩千多份那麼主要發出去的對象是民國93年之前取得身份證的嗎還是有哪些人我們有包括就是93年3月1號施行"},{"start":10368.556,"end":10395.018,"text":"兩岸關係條例修正的3月1號修正以後必須要在這個之前取得身份的陸配他必須在6個月之內繳付除籍證明這是第一個第二個就是從93年之後因為疫情的關係我們有這一些到最近都還沒有繳交除籍證明文件的這些"},{"start":10397.956,"end":10413.288,"text":"所以簡單來說就是有一批人是民國93年之前就已經取得了身份證的還有另外一群是在近期疫情期間取得身份證的我想請問一下在93年之前"},{"start":10413.908,"end":10442.606,"text":"取得身份證的當時應該是依據舊法因為在兩岸人民關係條例是在民國92年年底的時候修法施行是從93年開始施行所以呢在你們現在講的這個依據是依據第九條之一然後要求這個93年之前取得身份證的陸配必須要再補繳這個證件我想請教就是在九之一條的這個規定它的規範對象是包含哪些人"},{"start":10444.957,"end":10457.928,"text":"他所有大陸來台取得定居的這些陸配是只有那所以呢如果我們台灣地區的人民我們台灣人在大陸那裡有涉戶籍呢93年之前有涉戶籍的呢"},{"start":10459.849,"end":10481.334,"text":"報告委員 他這一條的意思就是所有台灣地區人民都不能夠在大陸涉及如果你在大陸涉及 你就要在六個月之內取消那邊的身份 放棄原期證明所以這邊所謂的台灣地區人民就是在那個時候擁有台灣身份證的人 就這樣"},{"start":10482.452,"end":10508.529,"text":"好所以呢也就是說九之一條的規定基本上它的規範對象是全台灣人對不對在台灣地區的全中華民國民只要是因為就講嘛第一項嘛不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛所以就是說在93年的時候這條九之一條規定是所有的台灣人包含我們現在所有的人都不可以在大陸設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛"},{"start":10509.369,"end":10528.017,"text":"那我現在要質疑的就是說你陸委會如果說你今天質疑說現在台灣人可能有些人是在大陸地區有護照或是有戶籍你為什麼你不全面清查你為什麼只挑93年之前已經取得中華民國身份證他理論上他就已經是中華民國國民了"},{"start":10530.694,"end":10556.837,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在93年之前如果他是陸配他取得台灣的身份證但如果他也沒有交那個撤銷對面戶籍的證明的話那我們肯定他就有這一條的適用我想請教一下93年之前的當時這群陸配他們申請身份證那時候的法規裡面有要求他們要付儲戶證明嗎"},{"start":10558.603,"end":10575.17,"text":"93年以前沒有可是據我了解這也是很多的就是本溪街道這邊有民眾陳情那時候其實他們也有檢附一些主婦證明好像是當時交到另外不同的機關裡面去那麼更何況現在已經事隔這麼多年那看起來這次的陸委會其實就是特別就是針對陸配是你們推定他們這些人在大陸都有戶籍或是護照嗎"},{"start":10587.465,"end":10608.203,"text":"戶籍我應該這樣講在大陸如果說他是陸配他在大陸一定有戶籍那他將來台灣他拿到身份如果他沒有繳交撤銷大陸戶籍的證明的話除非他在大陸是無戶籍國民因為當時他們可能來台灣的時候就已經"},{"start":10609.963,"end":10624.258,"text":"已經除戶了已經放棄戶籍事隔這麼多年二十幾年那麼我想要再請問的就是說因為從最近陸委會的種種的措施來看基本上就是找陸配麻煩"},{"start":10625.841,"end":10645.529,"text":"那麼不管是之前找雅雅的事情然後或者是現在要求所有的93年之前取得身份證這些陸配一定要檢附儲戶證明這些其實說實在話到底現在陸委會你們是有查到多少人你們自己可以依職權調查你們是有查到多少陸配或是陸配的子女在大陸有戶籍的"},{"start":10656.042,"end":10680.107,"text":"當然有啊有有多少當然有有多少你們自己有醫職權去調查嗎我們這幾年調查這幾年依法取消台灣身份的有676人這幾年有676人所以這是你們自己依法去調查還是人家檢舉的檢舉調查都有檢舉調查你們現在是透過什麼樣的管道去調查你們可以知道可以掌握到這些陸配在大陸有沒有戶籍嗎譬如說"},{"start":10688.612,"end":10706.85,"text":"我舉個例子他可能他他號稱自己沒有大陸的身份但是他可能他去出入出國或者是這個他就不小心用了他自己的護照那這種狀況被我們察覺那他就會被我們取消台灣的身份"},{"start":10707.409,"end":10715.199,"text":"是 所以代表說其實陸委會不是沒有能力可以或是移民署不是沒有能力可以去查那麼你們就可以依職權去調查那麼去了解到底陸配他在對岸有沒有戶籍可是你們現在呢卻這個採取了一個就是把所有的人搞得"},{"start":10726.292,"end":10730.256,"text":"雞飛狗跳人仰馬翻然後非得要人家去拿著護照去取得儲戶證明我認為這樣子的方法其實是極為不妥的那麼我要講的就是說在第17條裡面的規定是所有的大陸地區的人民他要取得中華民國身份證他可能是依據的第17條既然依據第17條他已經取得了他當然就是我們這裡講的這個"},{"start":10752.255,"end":10764.781,"text":"這個視為是台灣地區人民所以如果說盡量依據第九之一條裡面去要求他們要檢附這些儲戶證明你留意三更是全台灣的人民你都要發這個通知啊那你為什麼要特別去針對他們更何況我現在要講的就是"},{"start":10768.942,"end":10785.167,"text":"移民署 怠惰如果說93年這個法規就已經通過了如果你們當時就認為說必須要求這些大陸地區已經取得身份證的陸配必須要檢附儲戶證明20年來為什麼你們都不作為老實講這個事情我們也很困惑因為這20年來有藍有綠都輪流執政過"},{"start":10796.708,"end":10813.243,"text":"所以麥欽德上任之後特別在意這個事情特別認為說我們現在台灣裡面都充斥著匪諜是不是委員我跟妳報告一下如果根據九字一條今天如果任何人檢舉某一個陸配"},{"start":10814.636,"end":10837.152,"text":"他沒有繳交的話那麼我們根據九十一條就是可以直接把他除去台灣的身份的那我們之所以沒這麼做而現在採取說是只有陸配嗎你的話基本上就不合邏輯我只是舉例啦如果說有任何人截舉今天台灣人在大陸有戶籍有口罩你就不要特別去針對我們前一陣子就處理了好幾個嘛"},{"start":10838.453,"end":10859.79,"text":"那現在我跟委員報告就是說如果今天有人檢舉某一個人他在大陸確實有身份那我們就是可以根據九之一條然後直接把他除掉除掉台灣身份那我們之所以不這麼做而採取現在的先發通知請你回去拿文件的做法就是已經有相當的考慮了"},{"start":10860.71,"end":10879.725,"text":"副主委我要這樣想一下在我們的行政程序法裡面有些規定我想不知道是陸委會不知道還是移民署不知道雖然說在第95條之3裡面有講兩岸地區的人民往來有關事務是不適用行政程序法的規定可是我要特別提醒你們"},{"start":10880.586,"end":10892.965,"text":"在立法理由裡面當時講得很清楚 是不適用行政程序法的程序規定實體規定還是要適用的所以在這裡我要告訴你們 我給你們上點課行政程序法裡面有什麼"},{"start":10894.472,"end":10912.009,"text":"這些重要的基本原則行政行為要受法律及一般法律的拘束要符合比例原則要依行誠實信用的方法為之就是要符合誠信原則要保護人民的正當合理信賴同時你要去注意當事人有利不利的情形"},{"start":10913.39,"end":10938.74,"text":"因此行政程序法裡面也有特別講到就算是你們今天認為沒有補件的陸配當時核給他們身份證可能是有違法的行政處分但是違法行政處分的撤銷也是有期間的限制你兩年之內不作為撤銷權可能就過了"},{"start":10940.035,"end":10958.629,"text":"報告委員他這邊是知有撤銷原因實就是說行政機關知道這就是我講的你權利失效的原理請你們要記在心裡面行政法上面不見得說是沒有適用權利失效的法例你行政機關你怠惰二十年你不去追你突然之間告訴大家講說那你全部的人都要負都要檢負這個儲戶證明"},{"start":10964.853,"end":10987.186,"text":"那你今天應該要求全台灣的人啊都到大陸那裡去申請個儲戶證明去證明自己說沒有這個證明沒有這個大陸的戶籍我覺得你們的邏輯不對你們今天基本上就是沒有把陸配當成台灣人我覺得這就是你們最大的問題你們的上位概念你們的想法就是根本不把長期在台灣居住"},{"start":10988.647,"end":11010.747,"text":"愛護台灣的這群陸配當成是我們自己的自己人所以從一根本你們就認為他們就是有問題所以20年了30年了你還是對他不認同啊不就是這樣的嗎所以我要講就是基於誠信原則法的安定性原則我基本上我非常"},{"start":11013.57,"end":11023.34,"text":"我基本上是認為今天移民署跟陸委會你們就是權力濫用你們標準的權力濫用"},{"start":11025.543,"end":11048.758,"text":"有很多的措施你們可以是採取更緩和的手段去進行的包含雅雅的事件我基本上我並不是認為說今天雅雅的言論這個主張武統這樣的言論是對的即便是她這樣言論自由我都認為應該要有所限制問題是你行政機關你對待像這樣子的案子你有符合比例原則嗎"},{"start":11050.936,"end":11073.985,"text":"你們有太多的措施你們可以要求他的影片下架可以給他警告更何況大家看在我們的兩岸人民關係條例第14條第二項裡面也有講你要驅逐出境你要撤銷他的居留許可你要考慮到他在台灣有沒有未成年子女有沒有難以回復的損害"},{"start":11076.007,"end":11096.417,"text":"委員這個行政法院已經有判決行政機關應該開始在做這樣子的一個決定的時候你們就是濫用行政權我現在很遺憾就是這個不管是雅雅還有歐貴志的事件也是一樣的我想請教一下教育部請問一下"},{"start":11105.868,"end":11127.321,"text":"老師或是像我們講的一般的這個大學教授學者們到底可不可以接受陸媒的採訪有沒有違法當然是沒有違法接受陸媒採訪沒有違法沒有違法要看情況他的言論內容要看言論內容所以呢這個從您剛剛的回覆"},{"start":11129.284,"end":11137.291,"text":"讓我就感受到就是如果說上陸媒的節目去批評賴清德批評賴政府批評賴17條這樣的言論就不行這樣子就是違法是嗎那是他的言論自由是你說是誰的言論自由"},{"start":11143.456,"end":11165.472,"text":"那是他個人的言論自由但他的行為他作為一個老師他另外有一些專業的倫理必須去守他有沒有遵守教育基本法這是你們自己教育部寫的說這個是教師法第32條嚴守職分本於良知發揚世道及專業精神請問一下以歐貴貞老師的事情你告訴我他有違反他的職守嗎"},{"start":11166.853,"end":11186.506,"text":"這是提醒他他沒有本於良知嗎我想北運女他們本身學校現在也對說這個他接受這個中共的官媒的訪問他認為不合宜我現在不是問北運女北運女的做法她是這個也有這個明顯的違法我現在是問你教育部的立場對教育部的立場是說歐老師的言論自由沒有問題有違反師道嗎有違反專業精神嗎這見仁見智吧"},{"start":11194.271,"end":11221.353,"text":"我想台灣就是有言論自由所以他的言論自由是被保障的但是他的言論內容被批評我們也必須去保障可以批評的人是那既然如此那你教育部幹嘛還要台北市教育局去處理歐貴之的事情不是不是是因為我們有就是台灣是言論自由的地方所以也有我們收到13封的檢舉信認為他這樣違反教育中立所以我們請"},{"start":11222.734,"end":11248.059,"text":"本於這個直覺我們請地方政府去了解有沒有那我想這種這種行政調查所以最後我要問一下我最後再請教次長的就是簡單來說現在老師大學教授學者接受陸媒採訪沒有問題不違法沒有法律去禁止沒有法律禁止沒有問題沒有違法那麼如果說在陸媒"},{"start":11251.96,"end":11277.13,"text":"接受陸媒的採訪批評LINE17條有沒有違法受不受到言論自由的保障是啊 受啊受到言論自由的保障我認為是受但是我就說他的言行他的行為作為一個老師他適不適合去講這樣的內容我作為一個法律學者見仁見智吧或是其他我們現在有很多的法律 政治 社會 經濟各方面的學者"},{"start":11278.59,"end":11301.122,"text":"這個基本上對賴十七條都很有意見的是啊是我們在台灣我們可以大大方方的講這有沒有違反我們的這個所以說我說言論自由上是保障的他的問題在於言論內容上引起社會上不同的反應正因為台灣是言論自由的國家所以有不同的反應也有支持也有反對那教育是本與中立那我們提醒他"},{"start":11301.442,"end":11315.998,"text":"教育本於中立的意思不就是在課堂上我盡量維持中立我要講有人支持賴十七條有人批評賴十七條這叫教育中立對不對我在課堂上面維持這樣子的中立性但是在課堂之後"},{"start":11317.711,"end":11336.185,"text":"在其他的媒體投書新聞投書批評賴17條不行嗎這是言論自由所以我今天就是要得到次長您剛剛的說法我講的是說言論自由是被保障的但是言論內容引起爭議引起各方的批評證明台灣是言論自由的國家如果說這樣的言論"},{"start":11339.708,"end":11341.31,"text":"引起了社會的討論社會的批評那麼因此教育部就要去干預我想歐老師他也有心胸去接受各界的批評因為你講這種高度爭議的政治性言論"},{"start":11354.232,"end":11360.958,"text":"一定會引起台灣各界的一些不同的反應這是叫高度政治性言論嗎我覺得基本上我覺得你在中共的官媒去批評台灣的元首的這個國安政策當然是高度政治性所以賴慶德是不能被批評的當然可以我剛才講說可以啊所以呢我在台灣的媒體上面批評跟我在大陸的媒體上面批評這有什麼差別不是當然是可以批評啦委員我剛才一直強調在台灣的話就被認為是這個是不可以我們就是要被打壓"},{"start":11383.576,"end":11402.994,"text":"不是委員我剛才提過嘛就是說在台灣正是因為言論自由所以對於歐老師的言論內容批評也有很多不同的看法那我們本部是收到了13封這個檢舉信所以我們請地方政府去了解這個過程裡面完全是基於行政中立的作為跟了解"},{"start":11403.854,"end":11421.266,"text":"自由是被保障的是內容批評我今天至少質詢的部分我可以得到次長一個肯定的答案就是在台灣的老師教授學者們接受大陸媒體的採訪違法同時如果在大陸媒體上面批評現在賴政府的作為批評賴清德也不違法因為這都是受到言論自由的保障但是言行自己要負責"},{"start":11433.234,"end":11436.499,"text":"我們先處理會議時間上午的會議時間我們持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止接著我們請陳委員培餘進行詢答"},{"start":11456.892,"end":11466.437,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請法務部部長 政部長還有教育部張亮萬堅次長 謝謝好 次長 部長午安"},{"start":11478.203,"end":11507.445,"text":"好 我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度"},{"start":11507.805,"end":11522.37,"text":"我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色"},{"start":11523.383,"end":11549.644,"text":"那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥"},{"start":11551.425,"end":11564.786,"text":"所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧"},{"start":11566.468,"end":11584.634,"text":"好 那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好 這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上"},{"start":11585.274,"end":11596.903,"text":"這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強"},{"start":11598.223,"end":11627.058,"text":"對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上"},{"start":11627.518,"end":11653.306,"text":"只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的"},{"start":11653.706,"end":11671.801,"text":"但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的"},{"start":11672.642,"end":11699.131,"text":"好 謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法 教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師"},{"start":11700.171,"end":11721.988,"text":"那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律因為我們在報告裡面提到就是說中華民國教師專業標準指引"},{"start":11723.709,"end":11740.748,"text":"還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個"},{"start":11742.309,"end":11765.748,"text":"這個是不是不得違背倫理的行為我想這個就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪"},{"start":11766.348,"end":11781.799,"text":"可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論"},{"start":11782.6,"end":11811.601,"text":"雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明"},{"start":11812.581,"end":11823.77,"text":"這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師"},{"start":11827.893,"end":11855.155,"text":"他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師"},{"start":11856.829,"end":11879.386,"text":"也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好"},{"start":11880.106,"end":11906.648,"text":"部長假設我抓六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統"},{"start":11907.488,"end":11930.206,"text":"社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等"},{"start":11930.606,"end":11949.568,"text":"孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情"},{"start":11950.309,"end":11966.346,"text":"這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對"},{"start":11967.455,"end":11981.697,"text":"但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月"},{"start":11982.984,"end":12008.483,"text":"我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接 對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好 那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論"},{"start":12011.866,"end":12027.661,"text":"我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣"},{"start":12033.126,"end":12051.712,"text":"但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩"},{"start":12053.192,"end":12081.285,"text":"可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦"},{"start":12082.685,"end":12107.198,"text":"我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少犬法 兒少犬法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法"},{"start":12108.359,"end":12122.194,"text":"針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它能夠同步勾結讓犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子"},{"start":12122.875,"end":12149.546,"text":"市長這樣好不好 我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思 我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個條影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統"},{"start":12150.686,"end":12167.923,"text":"那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月"},{"start":12172.848,"end":12180.662,"text":"那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢"},{"start":12183.34,"end":12205.766,"text":"各位很抱歉,那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報加害人的這一部分我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報被害人但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以部長的意思是要等到判刑到起訴所以你認為起訴就可以"},{"start":12208.687,"end":12223.565,"text":"起訴這個部分 就可以通知交易系統再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦 那個部長我要求求你 拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我們知道現場在座最年輕的是誰"},{"start":12224.758,"end":12242.833,"text":"我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎"},{"start":12243.934,"end":12270.348,"text":"就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私密一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部"},{"start":12272.027,"end":12274.671,"text":"不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完"},{"start":12276.537,"end":12303.614,"text":"兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道"},{"start":12304.494,"end":12317.62,"text":"我要講的是 關鍵是我再回到前一章我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一章這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的"},{"start":12325.802,"end":12352.659,"text":"你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例喔你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道我知道對所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護那個被害人那一步機制已經啟動了嘛"},{"start":12353.976,"end":12367.164,"text":"我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上"},{"start":12369.805,"end":12392.96,"text":"我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是去確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上"},{"start":12393.4,"end":12416.138,"text":"我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式喔能夠我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉"},{"start":12417.934,"end":12433.38,"text":"還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我要再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師"},{"start":12434.861,"end":12463.759,"text":"我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳佩瑜要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳佩瑜被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查"},{"start":12467.047,"end":12468.687,"text":"主席是不是請這個陸委會移民署陸委會移民署"},{"start":12510.21,"end":12531.914,"text":"兩位首長現在從昨天這幾天軒然大波在我們的國家面臨全世界核彈級的經貿危機的時候連賴總統 卓院長都希望大家一起朝野一起共赴國難"},{"start":12533.88,"end":12545.542,"text":"此時此刻對於這14萬的陸配是不是有放棄國籍證明這個事情現在決定要怎麼做"},{"start":12550.831,"end":12567.125,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實我們這個事情不是現在才做其實在去年我們就整個清查所有陸配還沒有繳交除籍證明的這一些人因為如果依照兩岸關係條例9條1那時候的規範他必須在"},{"start":12572.861,"end":12593.5,"text":"台灣地區人民在大陸地區取得戶籍或者使用大陸護照他必須放棄在六個月之內在當時的立法的時候去年什麼時候開始我們去年下半年開始我們就根據這一些因為現在處置的方式是如何"},{"start":12593.88,"end":12617.346,"text":"是要請還沒有我們至少他沒有檢據放棄原籍證明的這些陸配他必須要來補正相關資料沒有補正的話無法補正的情況會怎麼樣其實在無法補正我們也正在跟陸委會在做一個協調我們針對所謂他因故無法"},{"start":12618.286,"end":12643.277,"text":"去回到大陸也可能他是因為年紀比較大或者身體的一個健康狀況所以導致他無法回去那這些事情我們現在其實移民署我們已經有所謂的設立專線還有專友提供民眾政府的專線確定可以處理事情嗎我們是要把"},{"start":12644.332,"end":12668.679,"text":"民眾他這一些沒有辦法回去提示這一些除疾證明的這些人把他們困難點回饋給我們我們彙整各種態樣它是什麼樣的一個狀態那處理的標準是什麼當然現在正在做所以我們希望說所以還沒有標準還在那沒有標準的話你們處置的方式已經出來了嗎"},{"start":12670.093,"end":12699.193,"text":"是幾個月內沒有完成會怎麼樣現在目前是三個月之內那如果說看民眾的一個那你太陽的規則標準都還沒有出來就已經準備先處置了嗎應該我們還在研議那這個時間應該先豁免一下吧各種太陽不同的話要如何處置你要一個standard出來嘛你不能說現在立刻就來執行三個月的事情"},{"start":12700.743,"end":12717.342,"text":"梁副主委也有什麼話要說應該是這樣我們根據法律原則上我們會要求凡是沒有繳交的都要繳交這是原則那現在我們收到有一些民眾他陳情說他有什麼困難他沒辦法回去拿"},{"start":12718.445,"end":12745.628,"text":"那針對這些澄清的個案我們會個別來甄別但是我也要跟委員報告在這個事情並不是從現在才開始就像副署長講的從去年就開始清查那在清查過程之中有一些也不是現在才有人說他沒辦法回去但是有一些狀況是他可能當事人講的不一定是真實的狀況"},{"start":12747.925,"end":12770.733,"text":"有些當事人他只是不願意或是懶得回去或他不願意花機票錢或者說他在大陸有欠債或是刑事責任等等這些所以這些東西不能一概而論那我們的原則上就是大家所以副主委剛剛有說明到有很多不同的態樣但請把它條列化出來好不好"},{"start":12772.384,"end":12785.151,"text":"條例畫出來讓大家有一個讓人民幸福的一個準則法律必須要很清楚的我們可以盡量去做但是因為陳情的樣態其實千變萬化"},{"start":12788.413,"end":12814.545,"text":"千變萬化政府存在不就要處理這些問題嗎那你到目前為止我們比較可以有共識的譬如說你是因為長期臥病在床健康因素你沒有辦法回去拿這個部分我覺得應該是會比較有共識但是其他的部分他說有很多各式各樣的理由那我們不一定都會採納梁副主委"},{"start":12816.158,"end":12844.841,"text":"我想不是今天的詢問而已 這個問題受到大眾的矚目請你們去商量以後 條例是很明確的公告周知 讓大家有所預詢的方向主席我想這個事情 本席從今天早上聽到現在不能這樣含糊過關一個很清楚的方式是什麼 要讓人民能夠知曉"},{"start":12847.865,"end":12871.056,"text":"我們會再開會 也請陸委會還有移民署要很明確的遊戲規則讓我們了解梁副主委 我很清楚請教一個問題我們現在是把一萬四千名陸配所有不管任何年限 現在都要繳交是嗎"},{"start":12872.568,"end":12897.708,"text":"根據法律是的那請問你法律什麼時候訂的2004年修改的3月1號對那2004年3月1號以前的呢法律規定就是2004年那次修改之前如果他沒有繳交初期證明的話他就必須要在六個月之內繳交如果他在六個月之內沒有繳交就是取消台灣的身份"},{"start":12899.079,"end":12925.767,"text":"法律規定就是這樣2004年3月1號加6個月9月1號9月1號以後你如果入委會還沒有執行移民署也還沒有執行是不是也過了已經追溯年限了就算大家當時拿一個假的來都已經超過了追溯期的20年"},{"start":12928.359,"end":12951.357,"text":"二零零四年九一號到現在是多少年那個報告委員從我們兩岸關係條例來講這個不能有雙重身份這件事情沒有什麼追溯年限的問題你就算過了五十年你也有雙重身份還是不許剛剛這個秘書來past你一下"},{"start":12952.403,"end":12971.248,"text":"那這一點為什麼之前都沒有公告周知呢這個是我們覺得這是我們的根本原則這是政府的疏失啊政府的疏失應該自行承受啊怎麼叫老百姓來承擔呢政府官員廢食職務從2004年修法到現在這中間兩黨輪流之戰現在梁副主委本席現在要求你"},{"start":12982.83,"end":12997.792,"text":"沒有關係 哪一個黨都有疏失但是不可以規則於人民就這麼簡單所以未來要如何執行請回去把確切的準則公告周知 可以嗎"},{"start":13000.114,"end":13025.752,"text":"這個部分我們會去研究但是我還是在跟委員報告因為陳情的理由有各式各樣有些是真的有些是假的政府存在的價值不就處理各式各樣人的問題嗎本席在這裡已經請陸委會跟移民署把這個事情早日承來落定有沒有任何補救的措施跟辦法"},{"start":13027.152,"end":13053.526,"text":"要一併公告 來請那個部長政部長政部長 麻煩部長 三年關兩年罵歷史上主要留下你的痕跡啊您覺得你擔任部長到現在"},{"start":13055.485,"end":13079.066,"text":"臺灣的言論自由是更加的自由還是更加的緊縮我們臺灣的自由程度是在亞洲是言論自由這個是言論自由是亞洲第二在整個國際美國自由自家的一個評比所以你從520就直到現在十個月因為我們的言論自由是增加的"},{"start":13080.611,"end":13099.862,"text":"充分的被保障 依照法律來保障沒有關係 那本席來慢慢請教為什麼 為什麼台灣現在是應該要不分族群 不分意識形態應該好好團結的時刻結果卻有發生這個各種"},{"start":13108.861,"end":13137.953,"text":"對言論前置的危機已經公開的發生而且這個危機不是一兩個人在講是大家都在講那個部長本期請教一下這個中研院陳培哲等75位學者聯合聲明聲明什麼部長請把聲明告訴我們好嗎"},{"start":13142.636,"end":13146.741,"text":"75位學者聯合聲明什麼事情"},{"start":13168.716,"end":13195.02,"text":"這個是整個學者的 中央學者的一個聲明嘛那這部分我們都 我們就尊重尊重 那聲明的內容是什麼聲明內容這裡面有寫啊這裡面有寫 這個不是我講的嘛沒有關係 部長嘛 那他說什麼你參考一下嘛跟大家分享一下嘛 大家分享一下嘛這個裡面有寫的不用我講嘛 這個大家都看到了嘛所以 部長 你要有這個勇氣嘛"},{"start":13196.542,"end":13222.715,"text":"面對各界的質疑你要有承擔跟接受挑戰的勇氣嘛已經講了嘛為什麼這麼多偏綠的學者都已經講了嘛這個戒嚴時代思想審查機制啊已經到了台灣的上空啊嚴重破壞台灣民主法治的發展"},{"start":13225.492,"end":13252.794,"text":"部長這是你第一張成績單啊算是偏綠的學者啊發表的聲明啊所以啊 部長鄭南榮先生是哪一天是我們鄭南榮先生我們言論自由的紀念日是哪一天四月七日啊 四月七日 好謝謝你啊你還讓全國國人知道"},{"start":13253.789,"end":13275.98,"text":"我們現在為了紀念鄭楠紅先生所以言論自由我們是紀念日而不是追悼日言論自由的紀念日不是追悼日本席在這裡再跟部長言論自由這是民主最可貴的地方"},{"start":13277.605,"end":13305.544,"text":"不管你主張台獨你主張統一你主張維持現狀這個都是各種言論的自由都可以表達本席請教部長你應該常常要網羅要收集各方的資訊對不對語情觀察對不對是嗎這部分會我們語情會有一些的注意啦應該部長嘛日理萬機要了解語情嘛對不對"},{"start":13307.403,"end":13328.374,"text":"不管是有線新聞網也好還是網媒也好我想部長應該都常常在涉獵訊息對不對是嗎 這個我們都會注意部長 你有沒有發現本席被青衣社的綠媒 綠網 綠嘴 綠團"},{"start":13334.755,"end":13359.311,"text":"你看 這麼多人關心言論自由 連那個都飛進來了部長 北西被罵了三四個月北西只有兩個字 各種言論尊重這就是中華民國民主可貴的地方大家可以有不同的政治立場 但是我們要彼此的尊重"},{"start":13362.25,"end":13382.936,"text":"部長你的成績單除了剛剛中研院的院士以外我不曉得你從哪裡去看到是用多少的業配去找來的這個這個所謂的國外的評比TBS剛做的這個民調你了解嗎TBS剛做的民調你了解嗎"},{"start":13385.41,"end":13413.185,"text":"TBS剛做的民調我們的言論有沒有自由有沒有更加的開放還是更加的限縮部長您上台以後現在我們言論自由認為限縮的人高達86.7%這不是本席做的民調這TBS公開的民調部長這是你的成績單我們國家的司法"},{"start":13414.178,"end":13442.935,"text":"已經逾越了自由這個我不同意沒有關係同不同意因為這個是一個很客觀的數字啦因為不是本席做的這是我在網路上看到的你可以去質疑TBS沒有關係啦那個部長不過還是要跟您共勉之啦這個福爾泰啊法國的哲學家我想你也都非常了解"},{"start":13444.249,"end":13468.022,"text":"我可以不同意你的觀點但我誓死捍衛你說話的權利部長認不認同認不認同這個是胡爾泰講的我是認同好 謝謝這就是民主社會那最後呢我想今天啊言論自由既然是今天主要的課題"},{"start":13469.454,"end":13492.725,"text":"所以本席一定要在最後最關鍵的拜託一下部長挺直腰桿政治司法不要介入言論的自由政治司法不要介入言論的自由看一下美國開國的國父"},{"start":13498.311,"end":13522.47,"text":"George Washington為什麼一個政權要禁止言論自由只有三個解釋第一個 他過去做了什麼壞事怕人們提起第二個 他現在正在幹什麼壞事怕人們批評第三個 他準備做什麼壞事怕人民揭露所以 拜託一下部長"},{"start":13523.669,"end":13544.947,"text":"言論自由是我們民主國家我們要合乎到憲法言論自由是憲法保障的基準的權利但是也要23條憲法23條的一些的法律上的這個也是那我想法官解釋也對這樣就充分的做樣的一個解釋了"},{"start":13547.649,"end":13573.203,"text":"保障這些法律及憲法一旨的言論自由我想這個是可以所以我們台灣才會成為世界被公認的言論自由國家部長又提到世界你又再次拉到世界本席更加的敬佩你再拉到世界我們再一次的強調聯合國的人權宣言兩公約言論自由是必須得到充分的保障"},{"start":13574.588,"end":13602.656,"text":"不需要太多太多的干涉好不好那今天啊我想今天召委排這個課程啊跟部長共享啦分享啦好不好好三尼瓜兩尼麻啦好當來的時候意氣風發都有工作結束的時候要人家常常的很思念懷念你我想公共生涯就是這樣好不好公平之謝謝"},{"start":13605.516,"end":13631.577,"text":"剛剛那個陸委會還有那個移民署剛剛委員有提到要你們準備東西麻煩你們提供給委員還有委員會那接下來我們請徐議政委員進行發言謝謝主席我們請陸委會梁副主委以及移民署陳副署長"},{"start":13641.224,"end":13669.075,"text":"委員好副主委還有陳副署長好我想剛剛已經有很多委員有提到有關這個移民署要求大陸配偶補交出籍證明的澄清包括我辦公室也收到非常多這樣的澄清就是說只要在海基會沒有驗證資料的都要補交請教一下陳副署長請問是誰要你們這樣做的沒有 這個其實長久以來我們都有在做這個事情長久以來是多久以來"},{"start":13670.219,"end":13684.855,"text":"其實只要因為移民署負責在省陸配的長期居留從一清居留長期居留到定居這個階段那請問一下陸委這個移民署一直以來都有做嗎我們依據的是兩岸公園這20年來都有做嗎"},{"start":13685.615,"end":13712.554,"text":"我們依序都有在做都有做那為什麼還有這麼多還沒有補交如果你20年前就有做的話不該有這麼多人沒有補交嗎跟委員報告其實陸配到台灣來兩岸分配總共有36萬餘人我想請教一下陳副署長我們得到的訊息是在2024年也就是去年的10月是陸委會要求移民署要逐步清查這個陸籍配偶放棄戶籍證明的請問是不是這樣"},{"start":13714.629,"end":13736.107,"text":"這個我們長久以來都有做那我剛剛的問題是去年的十月份陸委會有沒有要求你們要逐步清查陸籍配偶的這個出戶證明其實長久以來我們都在我想我沒什麼時間在這邊鬼打牆我覺得有就有 沒有就沒有如果沒有你就說沒有有你就說有陳副署長"},{"start":13741.691,"end":13769.268,"text":"這個部分是不是說好因為那個我也不要為難你啦好你答案已經告訴我了所以我想請教一下就是有關這個部分就是洛委會要求移民署清查的這個喪屍原籍的證明是民國93年3月1號實施的這相關的辦法但在此之前是不需要提交這個喪屍原籍的證明那所以大家我想大家也都接到很多陳情很多都是"},{"start":13769.668,"end":13784.862,"text":"如果是以93年開始起算的話很多都是來台灣已經二三十年的這些陸配那所以他們有可能在當地第一個可能親人也不在了第二個有可能因為你要他已經被除籍三十年以上再到原地去"},{"start":13785.723,"end":13808.831,"text":"要求這個他們以這個無戶籍的身份回去辦理本來就有實務上的困難所以已經造成了我想不管是配偶還有陸配的家庭他們都造成嚴重的一個恐慌喔那之前我們也有問過移民署喔移民署回覆我辦公室的說處理方式有三個第一個以海基會提供的請海基會提供驗證副本"},{"start":13810.131,"end":13833.669,"text":"第二個自己回大陸申請第三個請大陸親友代為申請這三種方式剛剛其實也有委員提到了都是不可行的方式也就是說現在在93年以前要清查的人數還有1萬多人剛剛副主長有提到了那目前剛剛不管是副主委還有陳副主長都提到"},{"start":13834.309,"end":13862.966,"text":"未來如果有沒辦法做到這三剛剛講的三種方式可以用個案來去處理那我想請教一下目前還有一萬多個這樣子的一個狀一個這個還沒辦法處理的方式那未來如果都要以個案處理的話我不曉得是不是因為現在陸委會跟海基會實在是沒什麼業務喔這個吃飽太閒還是怎麼樣都要用個案來處理的話那真的有辦法來處理嗎所以能不能用通案的方式來協助"},{"start":13864.575,"end":13865.323,"text":"請教一下副主委"},{"start":13867.233,"end":13896.463,"text":"我再跟委員報告一下很多人他提出的很多理由有些理由是聽起來是合理的也有很多理由聽起來是其實是沒有那麼合理的如果是有剛剛我想我也在旁邊有聽到副主委有提到有的不合理的部分那我們認同這就把這個不剔除那有沒有辦法用通案的方式來協助所以我們的原則還是這樣比如說啦一定原則上大家都要都要繳交證明"},{"start":13897.063,"end":13922.57,"text":"當然但是如果說你真的是因為不可抗議的因素我們現在講的是93年以前的嗎從法律規定來講是全部都要交就是說我們可不可以以簽署竊竊書的方式來替代應該是這樣講就要看他是不是真的無法回去真的無法回去取得文件"},{"start":13922.99,"end":13938.272,"text":"因為我剛剛提到這一萬多個如果你們都要用個案處理的話相信大家不管是這個陸委會不管是移民署的業務我相信都沒辦法來處理所以這部分希望剛剛我想我們國民黨團總召也特別希望你們能夠提出一些樣態"},{"start":13939.213,"end":13952.972,"text":"那什麼樣的方式是可行 什麼樣不可行盡量我覺得還是應該用通案來處理那真正由剛剛您講那個狀況再用個案處理我覺得這樣的方式可能也可以解決大家共同的一個困擾啦那另外再請教一下法務部鎮部長"},{"start":13959.392,"end":13981.713,"text":"請教一下鄭部長就是針對陸委會要求移民署清查這個放棄出戶證明若無法繳交要撤銷戶籍登記請問這是不是屬於行政處罰的行為行政處分行政處分那行政處分有沒有失效性的問題這要看那個"},{"start":13985.151,"end":14004.169,"text":"因為如果依照你們行政法法第45條的規定應該是有這個制裁處期時效至本法實施日期算三年嘛也就是說早就通過了那個追溯期啊好 這個是要 這個不是 這是行政處分這是刑處分 那這個也就是行政處罰處罰 這不是刑處罰好 那有沒有時效性"},{"start":14013.567,"end":14016.549,"text":"請問一下剛剛提到這個行政處分有沒有時效性"},{"start":14031.516,"end":14060.399,"text":"那這個應該因為他沒有義務的違反如果沒有義務違反就不是屬於行政的處罰那也有一種行政處分叫做管制性的行政處分那做成這樣一個行政處分我沒有看過相關實體法的規定不過剛才答詢的內容好像是說有從自知悉時起可以做這樣子一個處分那以上那所以是有還是沒有"},{"start":14061.961,"end":14077.61,"text":"時效嗎?對就是如果實體法的規定是是從資息機關資息時起算他可以做這樣一個處分的話那可能就是要具體的去認定機關到底什麼時候是可知可得資息的好"},{"start":14078.075,"end":14095.629,"text":"那所以這部分應該要請梁副主委回答是嗎根據我們兩樣人民關係條例九之一條的規定你可以看他的條文他基本上是沒有任何時間限制的也就是說一個陸配他就算在台灣生活了五十年六十年"},{"start":14096.149,"end":14117.356,"text":"他如果兩邊的身份都有的話只要被我們窒息那我們就要處理好 那針對這個部分就是要麻煩梁副主委就我們剛剛所要求的能夠盡快的提出一個同案的檢討 謝謝謝謝 那接下來我們請羅志強委員先代理主席"},{"start":14135.785,"end":14154.077,"text":"有請吳宗憲委員我們麻煩教育部政次、陸委會副主委、法務部長還有司法院廳長教育部、陸委會、法務部還有司法院"},{"start":14158.203,"end":14183.968,"text":"好那首先我先破題的簡單講一下就是因為我們其實這段時間我受夠了很多不明的不明的這些網軍總是對我們的發言斷章取義所以我現在這邊先說明一下第一個我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案那你們也請不要用個案來回答我第二個對於所有"},{"start":14185.339,"end":14202.546,"text":"只要是對我們這塊土地的有侵害的外來武力我們都予以反抗我們一定都會出來反抗而且所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的我們都予以譴責但是呢 回過頭來我講到"},{"start":14204.281,"end":14224.666,"text":"重點但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由也就是有一些言論他不被我們喜歡但是是不是有到達違法或用法律加以處罰其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的"},{"start":14225.606,"end":14242.705,"text":"的概念所以我自己在上個會期的時候我有提到在1990年的時候我自己參加野百合學運一直到後續也有廢紙動力勘案次序臨時條款然後後來我再去參加了廢除刑法100條的活動其實"},{"start":14243.886,"end":14265.957,"text":"我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的"},{"start":14267.097,"end":14282.792,"text":"鄭南榮到死他都還是堅守百分之百言論自由我想說這些東西現在目前在有一些民進黨的政客的嘴裡面其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榮的精神我想先提一下 當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條"},{"start":14287.777,"end":14307.069,"text":"的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授嘛他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領銜人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣"},{"start":14308.69,"end":14334.3,"text":"我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路"},{"start":14335.08,"end":14343.423,"text":"那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪"},{"start":14359.997,"end":14389.312,"text":"好 就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛 對不對我想這結論 我想這非常簡單啦所以呢 其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由 更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊 我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了 那大家也就無所依附了嘛"},{"start":14389.972,"end":14407.631,"text":"所以講台灣消失的言論 這個不會被主流民意所接受啦但是違不違法 這是另外一回事我再講一次 很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法 它是另外一個層次的問題所以呢"},{"start":14410.543,"end":14438.325,"text":"我想言論自由的界限在哪裡 這個很重要我們必須告訴人民什麼能講 什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實它已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土"},{"start":14439.205,"end":14464.73,"text":"不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下"},{"start":14466.11,"end":14476.699,"text":"那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢"},{"start":14479.141,"end":14495.505,"text":"過去民進黨追求100%研究結果 但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政策我想請教一下 部長最近的發言他認為說 教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同"},{"start":14498.866,"end":14520.059,"text":"我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你喔是那"},{"start":14521.36,"end":14548.175,"text":"今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸的民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立 主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五"},{"start":14551.368,"end":14576.743,"text":"小時候課本寫的做個堂堂正正中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同"},{"start":14579.239,"end":14606.48,"text":"愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎"},{"start":14608.962,"end":14619.354,"text":"所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛"},{"start":14621.358,"end":14644.332,"text":"所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講"},{"start":14646.654,"end":14669.591,"text":"還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我就不講誰 大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別人 你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊 打輸的叫中華隊"},{"start":14670.812,"end":14694.592,"text":"這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連"},{"start":14696.061,"end":14711.424,"text":"上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長 不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要"},{"start":14712.529,"end":14727.369,"text":"老師怎麼教學生 要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的 這各種都是不一樣啊所以 好吧 反正這個不是教育部講 所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國 這個大家想法是怎麼樣"},{"start":14728.83,"end":14755.085,"text":"所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情緒愛鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了所以"},{"start":14756.496,"end":14781.166,"text":"他對這塊的土地熱愛 其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下"},{"start":14782.146,"end":14799.858,"text":"這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法"},{"start":14800.822,"end":14822.701,"text":"不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答"},{"start":14829.062,"end":14839.366,"text":"這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱不當。這個就是妨害名譽這邊都有涉及仇恨性的言論啦。"},{"start":14853.099,"end":14876.071,"text":"誹謗跟共產主義這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦那骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論我覺得那部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被唸法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性"},{"start":14876.871,"end":14905.379,"text":"因為這個戰爭有時候是仇恨性的言論我沒有講仇恨性的我講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音我們就先說在整個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛"},{"start":14908.942,"end":14925.755,"text":"這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊那我來跟各位報告那至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下我國是成文法國家"},{"start":14926.716,"end":14951.565,"text":"以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範它犯罪否則基本上它是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人"},{"start":14952.205,"end":14978.853,"text":"鼓吹 蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條結果他們也唸了公正公約20條的條文結果他唸的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條它所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律"},{"start":14979.953,"end":15005.092,"text":"是這個規定 國家必須訂出法律 而不是告訴人民說 你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法 就是當國家訂出法律之後 人民加以違法 那叫做違法所以這就回到我剛剛說的 這是我國的罪行法定主義 是這樣所以今天這兩位委員 一直提公正公約二十條 所以"},{"start":15005.672,"end":15022.374,"text":"今天有人在網路上面講無同兩個字這個是違法其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼"},{"start":15024.296,"end":15042.156,"text":"過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來"},{"start":15042.997,"end":15069.218,"text":"結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛至少從構成要件來看有嗎"},{"start":15070.964,"end":15089.499,"text":"好 那不管有沒有 那我再請教一下有網紅啊 在他的歌曲裡面啊 就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來 你到底打不打那請問一下 這個有沒有違反 違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位"},{"start":15094.977,"end":15123.6,"text":"好吧 那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類 那你就違法"},{"start":15124.361,"end":15142.963,"text":"你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關立法機關"},{"start":15144.364,"end":15170.241,"text":"那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好 那我這次跟法務部要資料 部長啊我跟你請教一下說到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過 有開過一次"},{"start":15173.303,"end":15185.412,"text":"那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個你又說我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個"},{"start":15189.402,"end":15207.487,"text":"這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是呢請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性甚至"},{"start":15207.987,"end":15222.066,"text":"一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界線在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個"},{"start":15224.91,"end":15250.752,"text":"你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請 不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":15252.611,"end":15281.405,"text":"陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義"},{"start":15283.285,"end":15310.713,"text":"第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委"},{"start":15312.321,"end":15334.514,"text":"如果他只有居留權 他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣 但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留 也許他是來停留或者是來觀光"},{"start":15335.796,"end":15355.946,"text":"他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他"},{"start":15360.808,"end":15384.938,"text":"中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣"},{"start":15388.279,"end":15396.143,"text":"第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定"},{"start":15397.014,"end":15422.426,"text":"有身分證的話 因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分呢 我應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間 它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣"},{"start":15423.146,"end":15452.512,"text":"我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果領有身份證的當初的陸配"},{"start":15453.132,"end":15477.779,"text":"那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解"},{"start":15478.399,"end":15500.163,"text":"好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是"},{"start":15500.763,"end":15512.697,"text":"那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求"},{"start":15514.435,"end":15534.554,"text":"還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的民意或抗中保台口號的民意或國家安全的民意在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權"},{"start":15535.054,"end":15557.871,"text":"那就看是誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位他都不是我們那個副主委我已經說了我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在"},{"start":15558.732,"end":15584.744,"text":"十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派"},{"start":15585.731,"end":15605.173,"text":"我沒有說要繩子款 我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好 那謝謝各位接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":15611.601,"end":15632.93,"text":"主席有請司法院陳廷長 法務部政務部長然後部委會梁副主委 以及內政部陳副署長我想先念一段陸培子女的話給各位聽一下 請問各位感受如何"},{"start":15634.264,"end":15662.288,"text":"我母親從小教導我要愛台灣守護這片土地她來台三十多年奉公守法照顧家庭繳稅納保未曾有任何違法行為一生為家庭付出為社會安分守序如今卻因為無法提出一份三十多年前未被要求現今更無從補辦的文件"},{"start":15663.444,"end":15690.355,"text":"竟然可能面臨撤銷中華民國身份失去他所屬家園的命運讓我們一家人痛心無助我也忍不住想問這真的是我們從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎我念這段話我想要請教在座的首長們"},{"start":15692.386,"end":15715.563,"text":"真的不是用黨派的角度去看這件事情請大家用為人子女的角度來看這件事情我想請教一下我們的司法院的陳廷長你也是一輩子的法律人你覺得這是你從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎"},{"start":15720.134,"end":15745.587,"text":"這個一直都是我們追求的理念追求理念如果說您的父母跟他一樣被要求提出一個三十多年前未被要求現今也無從補辦的文件如果交不出來他就要被趕出去 驅逐出境離開他的家園 離開他的家人請問你能接受嗎"},{"start":15747.713,"end":15776.078,"text":"我想我的感受可能會跟委員剛才念的那一個子女的心聲是一樣非常好謝謝你陳廷長我想請教鄭明謙部長請問將心比心如果說今天是我們的父母要他拿一個30年前這20年我知道政府也沒跟他要他補辦突然我們賴清德總統上來就要他補辦"},{"start":15777.919,"end":15801.49,"text":"補教啊然後他也無從再找到這些東西了可是你找不到就離開台灣為人子女你覺得你的心情會是什麼我想我是法務部長救法援華那這個也不是我本部全管的一個部分部長其實你的答案我都知道你從來就這樣學學成廳長"},{"start":15805.003,"end":15834.407,"text":"作為法律人要有法律人的柔軟的心來 我想請教請教我們的那個移民署的陳副署長請問如果你的父母被要求交這樣的一份文件他真的找不到啊三十年其實真的我覺得人之常情啊找不到是人之常情啊你覺得你身為子女看著父母親要被趕出去"},{"start":15835.899,"end":15860.59,"text":"你心中做何感想我們會很難過可是在我目前我剛剛稍早有一些委員的指導副署長我跟你講我能夠理解你在現在政府部門擔任事務官的為難所以我不會勉強你但你剛剛講的那句你會很難過我很感動也請部長好好聽一聽來請我們的副主委請問"},{"start":15865.633,"end":15866.344,"text":"你的感受是什麼"},{"start":15868.309,"end":15895.439,"text":"從我們陸委會的立場我會先確定說他所謂無法補辦是什麼意思因為我們碰過很多人說他無法補辦但是後來都證明他其實是有辦法的你們發了多少信出去要求他無法補辦如果他是真的無法補辦經過我們的甄別真的無法補辦的話那我們絕對會保障他的權利副主委我問你啦"},{"start":15896.84,"end":15919.425,"text":"你們發了多少信出去要他們補辦就是大概一萬吧已經是解禁無差別的一個要求沒有無差別所以一萬份都是被檢舉嗎沒有無差別一萬份都被檢舉嗎病居的14萬人這一萬份是不是93年以前的大部分不止"},{"start":15921.656,"end":15946.025,"text":"一萬份欸所以我剛剛講的還不是一個子女的心情是一萬個家庭子女的心情沒關係啦 副主委我也知道 你是政務官啦所以你有為政策辯護的一個職責啦沒關係 我想請教你下一個問題我請教下一個問題三十年三十年"},{"start":15948.151,"end":15967.818,"text":"不是三天 不是三個星期 不是三個月 不是三年 是三十年要你交三十年前的文件 要你治政去交三十年前的文件 交不出來就把你驅逐出境"},{"start":15968.792,"end":15996.349,"text":"驅逐離開台灣是這樣嗎不會的好謝謝你非常謝謝副主委現在我請我們烏魯佩今天聽聽就我們副主委今天被問出來我們不是叫你交30年前的文件請副署長來而是30年前你沒有去申請這份文件副署長謝謝你剛剛副主委講了交不出來也沒關係因為30年前坦白講跟副署長講"},{"start":15997.95,"end":16023.888,"text":"真的 你以一般人喔 不要用政治色彩我請所有的 我們的台灣民眾 以人人的角度出發你要人拿30年前從大陸拿文件出來有難度吧我不要講說不可能 我講有難度總是很公道吧所以在這裡跟委員報告因為我們這幾天也接獲一些民眾來 我問一下部長部長有難度吧"},{"start":16031.724,"end":16043.676,"text":"我沒有說不可能,我是有難度吧?我是當然非常期盼他們能夠找出來,能夠在台灣安居樂業。我告訴你,部長,你又是,什麼叫期盼他能找出來?"},{"start":16044.742,"end":16059.489,"text":"我告訴你 你怎麼會把所有的責任都加給民眾這個不是我全管的 我當然我也是希望說我知道啦 不是你全管的所以因為有主管機關在所以我要請教你下一個問題我要請教我們的那個 梁副主委是發了一萬多封通知要他們交捕 要交件是你剛剛講的"},{"start":16075.131,"end":16104.398,"text":"我想請問為什麼蔡英文總統沒有發這1萬多件通知出去老實講因為這個2004年到現在藍綠政黨轉換我也不清楚說到底為什麼以前沒有執行我跟你講為什麼陳水扁有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去馬英九有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去"},{"start":16106.516,"end":16130.941,"text":"你都跟我講你不知道不懂不了解因為任何做一個人以子女的心情來講蔡英文總統就知道你接近無差別一萬多分你不要跟我講是有差別接近無差別大規模有交的做這件事情的時候凡是有交文件的我們就不會發就不會發通知啊有請副署長有請副署長"},{"start":16137.433,"end":16163.367,"text":"這個法規是93年定的嘛93年3月1號兩岸關係條例修正的9條1好 20年了今年終於發了一萬多封叫人家要補件然後如果交不出來有可能面臨驅逐出境剝奪身份嘛我想請問蔡英文總統8年有沒有發這一萬份的通知書有沒有沒有謝謝"},{"start":16169.44,"end":16190.319,"text":"梁副主委好好看看人家怎麼回答問題我要繼續請副署長你知道陳碎邊有沒有其實跟委員報告了所有在訂這一些馬英九有沒有"},{"start":16191.363,"end":16197.028,"text":"馬英九總統有沒有我沒有針對說93年3月1號為什麼蔡英文沒有為什麼陳水扁沒有為什麼馬英九沒有無能嗎 這三個總統無能"},{"start":16215.713,"end":16237.906,"text":"對陸委會來講因為兩岸條例是我們主管的法律所以當我們發現有許多人從來沒有繳交過相關的文件的時候這個部分就必須要處理所以蔡簡總統在他八年任內他竟然沒有發現何其怠惰"},{"start":16238.766,"end":16261.52,"text":"是這個意思嗎就你們偉大的現在在競爭總統上來你就發現了我不能這麼說非常謝謝你當然不能這麼說如果根據現在的法律你當然不能這麼說任何人只要檢舉某一位路程我們就可以立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做而是選擇發通知要他們補件其實是出於人道的考慮梁副主委我當然知道你現在的立場我怎麼會不知道"},{"start":16269.363,"end":16296.782,"text":"我告訴你 絕對不是蔡英文總統無能蔡英文總統任內雖然也有很多我們意識形態不一樣的地方她也不是每一個政見做法我都認同但是蔡英文總統心中還有一份柔軟她沒有拿著刀斧對著這些陸配"},{"start":16299.52,"end":16307.016,"text":"他沒有拿著刀斧 拿著一萬把刀對著這些陸配報告委員 我們現在的做法就是因為柔軟"},{"start":16309.719,"end":16331.992,"text":"所以啊 我告訴你啊 如果你們把這個定義為柔軟的話那豈不是定義蔡英文為無能因為現在任何人如果去檢舉某一個人他有大陸身份 我們就得立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做 而是給人家補正的機會就是因為注意柔軟所以你接到一萬多封的檢舉信了就是因為柔軟來來來 你還柔軟咧副署長 請問有沒有接到一萬多封的檢舉信"},{"start":16337.861,"end":16347.409,"text":"沒有接到幾封檢舉信我這樣問好了 問精確一點這1萬多封發出去有幾個是接到檢舉信發的這個我要回去查看看你不用回去查啦 你給我個比例嘛有沒有1%啊 還是10%啊 還是100%因為我在實務上也有發現說這1萬份裡面有一份是檢舉 有10份是檢舉100份是檢舉 還是1000份是檢舉這一點 總的概率你總知道吧"},{"start":16368.973,"end":16387.169,"text":"所以要再查一下再查 好沒關係啦待會發新聞稿告訴大家啦好不好來 請副主委你很柔軟 真的好柔軟你柔軟到讓我都覺得已經是欲哭無淚了"},{"start":16388.396,"end":16414.521,"text":"你剛剛講有人檢舉你都還不一定查就這一萬份沒檢舉你都查你說有人檢舉有時候你還要體諒大家你柔軟你還不一定查結果你柔軟到沒檢舉的你也查所以我才跟你講你跟無差別到底差別在哪裡一萬多個家庭一萬多個子女這真的跟意識形態無關啦跟意識形態無關啦最後"},{"start":16418.943,"end":16432.114,"text":"因為時間也到了我還是回到一句話身在宮門好修行在台灣三十年了他不是台灣人到底誰是台灣人"},{"start":16434.527,"end":16449.739,"text":"在台灣30年了你說的所謂無法補正或是什麼這些東西我們都必須要看個案然後如果他是真的無法補正因為身體的理由或是什麼樣的理由完全無法補正的話我們不會把人家趕出去絕對不會請部長就你法務部齁我們剛剛陸委會柔軟的陸委會說要看個案"},{"start":16463.715,"end":16468.214,"text":"看個案就是主管機關裁定不是嗎"},{"start":16469.158,"end":16495.953,"text":"他這個可不可以留下來這個如果說有駁掉的話這是訴願再訴願的行政訴訟這個要 但第一道行政處分是行政機關做嘛這個是行政機關跟後來要打行政訴訟這是司法院 我講的行政處分是誰在做啊如果你的行政處分是誰在做這個不是法務部這個完全不是法務部 我說如果啦這個要問司法院因為這個屬於行政的問題你是一路走來始終如一啦這個因為要打行政訴訟沒關係我做一個很快的結論很簡單"},{"start":16499.039,"end":16523.517,"text":"很簡單看看蔡英文總統看看陳水扁總統看看馬英九總統他們絕對不是無能這三個都是法律人總統他們非常知道什麼叫信賴保護我作為一個人在台灣生活三十年"},{"start":16525.615,"end":16553.41,"text":"作為一個法律人或也作為一個任何人今天一個陸配來台三十年這段期間移民署也好 陸委會也好你在九十三年法律訂的時候要他六個月內交他也交文件 不交文件不管你二十年的時間"},{"start":16555.814,"end":16578.007,"text":"你身份還是給他他身份繼續保留這不就是信賴保護嗎結果你現在打翻這個信賴保護而且說實在剛剛已經承認了沒有檢舉也做啊至少裡面很大部分是沒有檢舉啦至少不是全部都是檢舉啦因為你沒給我數字我也不敢講是什麼蔡英文總統"},{"start":16585.31,"end":16608.402,"text":"能夠知道這份柔軟馬英九總統能夠有這份柔軟陳水扁總統也有這份柔軟我希望身為人 身為人子也能有這份柔軟 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請張綺凱委員發言"},{"start":16636.5,"end":16660.629,"text":"請梁文傑 梁副主委還有這個移民署的陳副署長好 副署長委員好文傑我們兩個認識三十幾年了年輕的時候我們心都是柔軟的可是心不要變硬更不要變成是壞的"},{"start":16662.915,"end":16665.637,"text":"特別人在公門要好修行政府存在的目的就是服務人民啊不是製造問題啊你知道從今天一早這麼多人在問你的你們把它定位成是陸配我看到他們的陳情有些很多都是他們小孩陳情的他們貼的文章"},{"start":16692.082,"end":16716.339,"text":"如果是我們很年輕的時候文姐你跟我都很年輕我覺得你應該是會掉眼淚的我很希望你那個初心是還在的我看的是難過的是明明本來沒有事情啊為什麼搞出來這麼大的一個讓那麼多的家庭不安我昨天在緊急找了副署長到我辦公室對不對你們發出去的這個一萬兩千封欸"},{"start":16723.561,"end":16748.357,"text":"你剛在講檢舉 你有檢舉你就辦 可是檢舉要辦你也要舉證啊你怎麼一下撒一萬兩千多封出去 一萬兩千個家庭而且你知道你現在對象是誰嗎這些人已經來台灣三十幾年 四十幾年 五十幾年他們不只是台灣之子的老婆台灣人的老婆 台灣之子的母親 他們就是個台灣人啊"},{"start":16749.841,"end":16759.385,"text":"你做台灣人做二十五年 做三十五年 做四十五年很多年紀都很長了 六七十歲了你希望我叫他去拿二十一年前 三十幾年前的東西出來你不強人所難嗎我剛剛在講政府要做什麼事情 政府要服務人民嘛你海基會 你的陸委會的功能在哪裡你的移民署功能在哪裡你叫他去補證件"},{"start":16778.356,"end":16785.703,"text":"很多政見政府應該幫他找啊是不是我先提五個最具體的我們先來看一下五大具體的要求我先從第二個開始講你現在叫我們這個陸配你在民國93年3月1號修了兩岸人民關係條例之後你說本來要他註銷他的戶籍"},{"start":16804.793,"end":16826.607,"text":"你本來六個月內要完成啊你本身沒有好好去追對不對這是不是政府本來就是失職 怠惰責任在政府嘛政府要去幫忙解決問題啊所以我第一項我基本的要求民國93年3月1號以前他已經定居了對啊 文哲你也說啊他如果已經取得身份證 從寬嘛對不對我明確要求"},{"start":16827.659,"end":16857.006,"text":"在這93年3月1號之前已經來台定居了就排除了也就是你這次花了一萬兩千多份不要再追了這是第一項你這樣是不是就解決問題了我剛剛講了那麼多的台灣支持的父母的母親台灣人的老婆那麼多的台灣人就不會有這個困擾了嘛把這個時間點定出來第一項 現在要做的事情啊你就叫他補正啊 海際會為什麼要存在"},{"start":16858.9,"end":16873.545,"text":"為什麼要存在海基會海基會為什麼沒有被裁掉 為什麼要設立他不就是要幫我們人民服務嗎他要做認證的工作啊 是不是所以現在有碰到問題了 因為打電話或者到海基會去申請就好不是去找那個台六要回一趟 任何一個人要跑一趟大陸多遠啊不用工作嗎完環要多久 去還要再辦"},{"start":16884.807,"end":16896.13,"text":"海基會存在的目的是什麼所以讓我們的陸配 我們的人民直接到海基會去海基會扮演它應該有的功能海基會跟大陸 海協會是對口的嘛去查啊海基會去查 到底他的戶籍還在不在啊對不對啊如果沒這問題 為什麼跑那麼一趟海基會存在才有它的價值嘛要不然就拆掉啊"},{"start":16912.011,"end":16939.434,"text":"另外接下來就是移民署給你入委會的功能第三點你的目的就是要他放棄大陸這個戶籍嘛 對不對你做一個公版的申請書啊我就是要證明嘛 對不對然後你給他一個公版的這個申請書他簽名 簽完以後到這個法院去認證不就完成程序了嗎"},{"start":16941.377,"end":16966.864,"text":"所以從政府的角色從海基會一直到你入委會到移民署這問題不就解決了嗎為什麼搞這麼複雜呢為什麼要擾民呢甚至還牽扯到身份的這個檢驗還有歧視的問題只要你回到初心以前的梁文傑 笑臉的梁文傑心是軟的 不是硬的 不是黑的政府該有的功能要扮演做到前面這幾項問題是不是都解決了"},{"start":16969.858,"end":16995.734,"text":"好 很具體的啊 對 所以我要再問一個你現在很嚴重就是叫人家三個月內要完成這個事情你們自己人家打電話去問 你說什麼程序要多久你們要回答說至少大概兩個月 給你們多一個月時間太緊迫了啦至少把這個時間延長多於兩年另外我一個要求 除了做剛剛的現在很多人民都碰到問題了我們有特別跟你講 這邊你們刨掉的"},{"start":16997.492,"end":17021.301,"text":"你不只製造了社會的對立 你刨掉了台灣很重要的根民主 法治 人權跟人道 都台灣很重要的你把這根刨掉了然後製造了社會的對立 讓很多人惶惶不安等於老實講 你們也刨掉了民進黨自己的根啦你去看看臉書上面還有很多來陳情的你們連民進黨的立委現在 辦公室電話都被打爆啦"},{"start":17023.07,"end":17045.611,"text":"裡面有些留言說我長期都是民進黨支持者啊你現在有媽媽回去找一個三十幾年前 四十幾年前的東西找得到嗎連民進黨那些青鳥 那些支持者都反彈了你們在刨自己的根啊這些人本來就是在台灣人啊 人家住這麼久啊為什麼要圍爛人家呢最重要的 政府的角色扮演完以後你要的"},{"start":17046.704,"end":17062.59,"text":"就可以完成這個法律的程序嘛 對不對所以我明確要求你在最近一個月內北中南去辦公開說明會請聽到底碰到什麼問題幫他們解決問題文傑跟移民署副市長我們來做這五件事情好不好委員可以讓我們有時間回答嗎"},{"start":17065.433,"end":17091.824,"text":"對我們來講其實不管是93年3月1號以前還是之後其實我們都是不准有雙重身份那今天之所以會有3月1號這個事情是因為當初的修法我們現在是follow法律如果說立法院覺得說這個93年3月1號以前應該排除那老實講這個不是我們行政機關可以答應的"},{"start":17094.433,"end":17112.416,"text":"你當初在九十一年三月一號修兩岸人民關係條例的時候你當初很多人就已經拿到身份證了耶那你要的話你當初你就一直追他說你六個月內沒有完成放棄對不對你六個月你自己沒做所以我說你是帶動又失職啊你這個轉嫁變成要人民來負擔這個事情咧"},{"start":17113.917,"end":17135.996,"text":"法律追訴期間第一個 沒有那麼長啦 都是知道當初我也不是陸委會 你也不是立委嘛你現在這麼晚 你還在那邊堆你現在來追 是當初的陸委會 陸委會失職啊那你怎麼反而現在怪到人民身上 要人民來負這個責任不過委員提出的一個方案 其中第三點我一再強調 就是說如果他是當事人 真的沒有辦法"},{"start":17136.969,"end":17158.477,"text":"拿到文件的話我們會有別的措施我們絕對不會說你真的沒有辦法拿到文件然後我真的把你身份取消我們不會這樣做但是很多人我還是要再強調一遍很多人都說他自己沒辦法拿到但是實際上最後都是可以的"},{"start":17160.595,"end":17170.562,"text":"我只能夠這樣子所以我說你政府自己要先辦年好嘛你就讓他去海基會海基會去幫他查啊你陸委會的功能你移民署的功能你把那個放棄的那個"},{"start":17171.775,"end":17199.727,"text":"公版的申請書給他就好啊你給我這個問題啊是要達到法律上要的二跟三趕快做 可以嗎關於如果他真的沒有辦法那用切結的方式這是一個可以考慮的方向用切結的方式對 如果真的沒有辦法拿到文傑 不要用個案處理啦你給一個公版嘛你所謂切結就是說他現在是找不到對不對他確實很困難嘛由入委會跟移民署提供一個公版切結說我確實已經放棄了 找不到"},{"start":17200.467,"end":17226.307,"text":"那你經過這個法院的認證嘛 對不對那就完成這個程序啦OK齁所以陸委會跟移民組會做這樣的事情齁在這裡跟委員報告那個副組長他是你的指導單位嘛 對不對是不是你除非是要推翻他的要不然你不用再說了趕快做這件事好不好那個等一下等一下讓副組委先講那個你什麼時候可以把這個公版拿出來"},{"start":17228.475,"end":17250.764,"text":"這個竊竊的這個官板好不好一個禮拜可以讓大家自由上去自己是可以下載嘛那個委員我再說明一下對於那些真的沒有辦法回去拿到文件的人用竊竊的方式是可以考慮的方式但是首先我們要先確定他到底是不是"},{"start":17251.946,"end":17278.525,"text":"真的沒有辦法拿到否則我們對那些真的有回去拿這些文件然後回來繳交的這些陸配也不公平你這樣跑一趟就已經是擾民了也不公平你存在價值就是服務民眾你本來海基會可以做的因為現在14萬定居的13萬人都交了嘛那比較近期了嘛對不對比較碰到問題大部分都是在93年3月1號以前的啦你那個一萬兩千份最主要就是這個嘛對不對"},{"start":17279.608,"end":17308.212,"text":"是不是跟全民講清楚為什麼今天那麼多人這麼氣憤是因為你現在發出的一萬兩千份都是九十三年三月一號以前二十一年前的他放在這邊就住了四十年五十年這個都是連長的我看現在上面的抗議的人都是二代啦都是年輕人啦媽媽在這裡住這麼久啊你叫我現在六七十歲啊七八十歲啊你要想要叫我拿三四十年前的東西這不是擾民不是獅子是什麼"},{"start":17309.369,"end":17334.995,"text":"我覺得對我們來說身體健康跟年紀這些我們都會考量最關鍵的我們要解決問題你剛剛說要有一個切結是可以的那你一個禮拜內把這個切結的公版寫出來放到網路上讓大家可以下載或者有需要的人就到移民署去拿我看移民署現在大概每天都是一缸子人去"},{"start":17336.691,"end":17351.509,"text":"電話被打爆了現在是忙到連電話都打不進去了對不對那你要想辦法解決問題啊包委員我們已經設有專線還有專友也就是讓民眾可以傳輸的一個便利那"},{"start":17352.91,"end":17368.381,"text":"我們本署的網站也會公告專用電子的信箱諮詢的專線還有對外的Q&A然後我們會製作懶人包讓民眾知道要怎麼來處理那最重要的是我們要請聽這些"},{"start":17371.161,"end":17396.642,"text":"接獲通知的民眾如果他不能回去大陸他的原因他的狀態是怎麼樣我們收整把他分類然後再跟陸委會來做研商現在我接到的這個投訴還有在網路跟媒體上看到的很多人根本就是去電話打不接的打進去了你們就叫他第一句話嘛去回大陸"},{"start":17399.246,"end":17426.164,"text":"你去把文件找到嘛 來公證嘛你地雷太沒用 地雷你變成轉機啊你不是個轉機而已啊政府存在的目的你要幫人民解決問題 要找到對的方法嘛 是不是剛剛我們有新的進展了那個陸委會的副主委 文姐我剛剛講的 切結這個事情 這是一個地雷盡快給一個公版的 大家可以有一個依循這是地雷 地雷好好去檢討一下 跟海基會討論一下"},{"start":17428.117,"end":17453.413,"text":"海基會如果要存在你本來就要幫人民做這個認證啊等一等我可以去你那邊查說到底以前我有沒有這個文件嘛對不對有沒有撤下這個文件嘛它本來就要保存啊啊沒有的話它存在功能它就是跟對岸它有對接啊它可以幫人民查不是嗎如果只有二跟三這個解決了根本就連大陸就不用跑問題就解決了啊委員跟你報告能查的或是海基會有存檔的"},{"start":17454.494,"end":17475.887,"text":"都有查了所以現在在通知的就是沒有就是沒有存檔也沒有所以你看 海基會就沒有標籤這年代這麼久很難查你強人所難嘛所以幫忙解決問題啦好不好 另外剛才你一個重點我剛才說過你說 你說如果沒有如期完成的你不會把人清除出去 趕出去喔 對不對清楚跟民眾講一下"},{"start":17478.615,"end":17493.762,"text":"不會 這個要保證喔要保證喔不要發生這樣的悲劇如果真的沒有辦法拿到這些文件政府絕對不會做出這種驅逐的舉動這個和前一陣子那三位中配的案子不一樣"},{"start":17494.967,"end":17516.94,"text":"這就是我們 都像台灣人 做這麼久了 要保護自己的台灣人現在特別 你看 這裡高關稅那個海嘯這麼嚴重 怎麼每天都結社會啊草野都是一新的啦 各行各業 別在裡面又製造一些衝突跟這些擾民的事情這裡面老實講還有歧視跟身份檢查問題 都真的很不好啦我們今天都是解決問題喔 每個東西都很具體喔 好不好好好檢討一下 要檢討一下 如果在93年3月1號以前呢 可以排除"},{"start":17524.766,"end":17549.855,"text":"我會努力 當然你如果要修法 立法委內 我們可以來提案可是我覺得你如果心還是軟的 行政部門本身也應該做我們蠻期待的啊 陸委會行政部門自己提案啊留下一個心還是軟的 有幫人民在服務的政務官當官都是一時的啦留下來不要是汙名 要是美名 好不好還有機會 我們趕快幫我們的陸培跟我們台灣人 改發問題 好不好好 大家 謝謝"},{"start":17552.203,"end":17570.658,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員蔡義瑜委員 蔡義瑜委員 蔡義瑜委員鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員"},{"start":17574.465,"end":17590.061,"text":"好所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關請出送交個別委員及本會本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16576","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d9b2e70173c67771b7931ae751f1d07216e2c503bbdfdf4b6a13338db830437705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-09T08:31:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T12:09:00+08:00","duration":13033,"影片長度":"03:37:13","委員發言時間":"08:31:47 - 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請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1983.527,"end":2011.704,"text":"報告事項 邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出國家情報工作及國家安全局業務報告並被質詢宣讀完畢今天在場的委員我們陳永康委員以上我介紹一下議會的貴賓這是國家安全局局長蔡明彥局長"},{"start":2015.203,"end":2039.845,"text":"憲兵指揮部指揮官鄭真祥指揮官資通電軍指揮部指揮官毛建秋政治作戰局局長陳玉玲電信發展室主任郭志果"},{"start":2042.182,"end":2058.272,"text":"京師情報局執行長鄧敦仁京師安全總隊總隊長汪世維介紹海洋委員會的海巡署署長張中榮巡防組組長廖雲紅"},{"start":2071.977,"end":2096.086,"text":"情報組組長廖德勝特別行動資源中心主任林天佑介紹內政部警政署署長張榮鑫刑事局警察局局長周又偉"},{"start":2099.468,"end":2120.252,"text":"保安組組長范志坤防治組組長陳久志介紹內政部移民署署長鍾景坤國際級執法事務組組長江玲"},{"start":2131.229,"end":2155.538,"text":"人事國事組入處國事務組組長 林怡俊移民事務組組長 許雲介紹法務部部長 法務部調查局局長 陳百利"},{"start":2157.995,"end":2166.2,"text":"國家安全維護處長葉立欽國內安全調查處長陳瑜元保方處處長林天靜資通安全處處長張宥仁張宥仁好以上"},{"start":2186.534,"end":2189.535,"text":"補充介紹我們陳俊宜委員請問在場的委員對於上次的會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有好那議事錄確定"},{"start":2212.947,"end":2235.649,"text":"本日會議邀請國安局局長率相關情報機關所長提出國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告並被質詢報告區分為公開及機密兩個部分才先公開後秘密報告詢答先秘密後公開時間並進"},{"start":2239.056,"end":2259.142,"text":"本会委员6加2分钟非本会委员5分钟那10点30分发言登记决止如有临时提案对于10点30分前提出11点左右处理现在请蔡局长上台就公开部分进行报告"},{"start":2274.199,"end":2297.166,"text":"好謝謝主席主席在場各位委員先進各位女士各位先生大家早那今天非常榮幸可以協同國安情報團隊的首長向大院來提報我們今年上半年的義務報告那現在緊究國家安全情勢的分析以及今年工作的重點方向跟各位委員先進進行提報第一大部分是有關於國家安全情勢的分析一當前的重要情勢瓜福無一"},{"start":2297.766,"end":2318.118,"text":"川普的新政牽動到全球政經局勢的變化那美國川普政府在今年的一月上任之後秉持美國優先的理念來推動各項的對內以及對外的政策並且積極地來推出以哈、厄烏的停戰主要目的就在集中資源來應對中共潛在的威脅在印太地區的部分美國也在美日的峰會、美日韓的外長會議以及G7的外長會議當中不斷地在強調"},{"start":2321.28,"end":2349.371,"text":"台海和平穩定的重要性同時也展現反對片面以武力或脅迫的手段改變現狀的基本的一個政策立場那另外川普政府也宣布來對外進行貿易跟相關的投資政策包括提高了各國在鋼、鋁、汽車關稅至25%並且對各國來課徵10%到50%的對等關稅希望能夠來引導相關的製造業回流到美國來增加美國國內的就業機會那中共也利用這個機會來誘拉各個國家"},{"start":2351.272,"end":2363.537,"text":"希望能夠來加強跟中共的經貿合作關係希望透過所謂的笑臉攻勢來建第一美盟圍堵中共的壓力以便來繼續鞏固中共跟全球南方國家彼此之間的合作關係的緊密度"},{"start":2364.775,"end":2380.95,"text":"瓜虎二,中共內部的金色情勢相當嚴峻我們觀察到國際的相關的性貧或財務的機構在評估中共的經濟所存在的問題時他們特別指出來主要的問題包括有產能過剩、通膨緊縮"},{"start":2382.111,"end":2401.486,"text":"消費跟投資的動能不足以及外資撤離等等問題那今年對中國經濟成長率的預測也下調到4%到4.6%之間的一個區段那低於中共自己本身官方所公布的5%預期達到的經濟成長的目標那另外中共的經濟持續的不振那也"},{"start":2402.547,"end":2417.236,"text":"導致的遭到欠薪減薪的族群由傳統的農民工開始擴展到所謂的公務員醫護人員以及金融業等等那在去年爆發有超過3000起的民眾陳抗事件當中可以看到有超過75%都是跟中國大陸民眾經濟權益受損有關"},{"start":2421.318,"end":2440.111,"text":"那另外因為經濟長期的疲軟也衝擊到中共地方財政的收入加重了常在的一個負擔那同時在這過程當中我們也注意到中共在去年查處有將近八十九萬名的官員其中包括有七十三名的省部級以上的領導幹部規模達到習近平主政以來最大的規模"},{"start":2441.392,"end":2452.143,"text":"刮虎山共軍的海空擴權威脅到我們整體的區安全在經濟不振債務規模不斷攀升之下中共在今年還是編列的國防預算高達有1.78兆人民幣的"},{"start":2455.206,"end":2476.846,"text":"規模那連續三年的成長率都達到7.2%那都超過了他們經濟成長的一個增幅叫我們來把國防預算跟經濟成長率來做比較的話那中共持續來加強在周邊海空擴權的行動在去年就協同俄羅斯在西太平洋日本海從事有兩次的空中跟兩次的海上聯合戰略巡航的動作並且貫穿"},{"start":2478.627,"end":2507.559,"text":"相關日本跟韓國的防控識別區也就是所謂的ADIZ那另外在今年的二月下旬也第一次在澳洲還有紐西蘭周邊的海域來進行無預警的實彈射擊的演練在南海地區的部分我們也看到中共綜合運用到共軍海警公務船舶複合式的侵擾來脅迫南海周邊地區的一個國家引發國際社會高度的關注第二大部分是有關於我國國安的一個威脅瓜胡一"},{"start":2508.154,"end":2532.837,"text":"共軍擴增台海威澤的力度共軍在去年對台實施聯合力艦2024A、B等等的軍事演習同時也執行了有40次的聯合戰備警巡希望藉由擴增夜間的訓練的頻次來增加晝夜滯空、滯海的作戰能量同時共機在全年侵入我國防空識別區也達到了3070架次之多"},{"start":2533.337,"end":2549.509,"text":"比前一年也就是2023年的1703架次增加有將近八成之多那在今年的3月17號共軍也第一次來實施單日有兩度的聯合戰備警巡的一個活動那在今年的4月1號跟2號更先後的來展開"},{"start":2550.49,"end":2567.793,"text":"東部戰區的聯合演訓以及所謂海峽雷霆2025A等等對台的軍事演訓的活動希望來透過相關的演訓活動來擴大對台灣的文攻武嚇的一個效應那另外中共也不斷地來變化灰色地帶侵擾的一個手法包括擴大運用無人機"},{"start":2568.494,"end":2596.733,"text":"海警船、海巡船、海釣船、漁船、全一輪等等頻繁地在我國的本外島周邊的水域來進行活動那其中海警船侵入到我們金門外島的水域編隊的巡航在去年總計有52次之多在今年到3月21日為止已經有11次之多那相關的一個侵擾的活動也迫使我國必須要相應地來派遣跟監的兵力那耗損我國相關應處的資源"},{"start":2598.534,"end":2627.073,"text":"關乎中共對我國的滲透手法越居多元那在這部分本局統計2020年到今天為止共諜案起訴人數總計有159人那其中現役跟退役的軍人總計達到95人之多佔比是60%那滲透手法主要是透過退役拉攏現役網路勾連金錢利誘債務脅迫等等的方式全面的來對我國的軍事單位以及政府機關進行滲透"},{"start":2628.574,"end":2643.716,"text":"同時中共也運用國人發展相關的武裝的內應圖謀來在武力犯台的同時可以來在台灣的內部協助共軍來展開相關的行動那共軍鎖定的希望能夠吸納的一個"},{"start":2644.938,"end":2671.191,"text":"人員已經不再侷限是我們國軍的高階軍官從2020年到現在為止我們所看到的是因為共諜案而遭到起訴的95名的現退役軍人其中當中有46人是軍官27人是士官以及22人是士兵那相關的一個國軍階級分佈跟佔比可以凸顯到中共對台的滲透手法已經越來越多元跟全面"},{"start":2672.305,"end":2686.828,"text":"關湖山中共拼命的對我國來進行妄害還有竊資在去年到目前為止我國政府的服務網每天達到侵害的一個次數有219萬餘次之多那以中共"},{"start":2687.989,"end":2708.498,"text":"網軍所發動的侵害活動為主那整體的網攻的威脅我們看到有兩個重點第一個部分是呈現到特定的議題的結合配合到網害的行動那第二部分是結合到中共我們剛剛跟各位介紹的戰訓的布式再結合到網路侵害的活動那目的就是來透過這些活動強化對台灣在網路威懾的一個"},{"start":2709.338,"end":2723.267,"text":"相關的一個效果那我們的政府跟國防領域過去曾經遭害的一個資料也都被中共的駭客不斷的在翻新還有重複的販售來炒作那主要的目的就在打擊我們政府在資安領域的一個威信"},{"start":2724.608,"end":2747.18,"text":"廣武市中共加大散布正義訊息混淆國人的認知我們國安團隊從今年到現在為止所收獲的徵訊已經有51萬余折之多另外掌握到異常的帳號有3600余組之多主要集中在臉書跟TikTok這些所謂的社群平台中共也同時運用到官媒、自媒體"},{"start":2748.46,"end":2766.37,"text":"網軍的集團還有一些協力的公關公司搭配到異常帳號來帶動輿論的風向那試圖對我國來進行認知作戰那我們也發現到在整個過程當中中共對於AI工具來輔助操作徵訊的深層跟散布似乎已經變成一個越來越頻繁的一個趨勢"},{"start":2767.791,"end":2791.801,"text":"第二大部分跟各位委員先進所提報的是有關於今年本局工作的主要的重點方向一我們會精進戰略趨勢的研判拓展我們的國際情報合作那在這部分我們會持續的來拓展跟國際友盟的溝通還有情報的合作以便來提升國安情報團隊戰略延伸的能量希望能夠來先期的掌握戰略預警強化共同至終聯防的一個能量"},{"start":2792.81,"end":2810.203,"text":"第二,掌收中共統戰的情緒,全力查辦,增防的一個案件。在這部分,我們會持續的來強化,並且來建構檢查機關、調查機關、情報機關跟軍中保防機關之間的協作關係,提升我們偵辦國安案件的一個量能。"},{"start":2811.175,"end":2833.337,"text":"第三,我們會來優化我們治安協作的機制,前瞻保密安全的韌性。本局會持續的來優化我們治安防護協作的機制,掌收國內外的網安威脅預警的情資。另外,我們也為了要來確保我們相關的保密情傳鏈路安全暢通,會持續的來強化政府保密網路通聯的韌性以及安全性。"},{"start":2834.378,"end":2851.833,"text":"第四 我們會來厚植徵訊防制的硬杵深化國際交流合作本局已經建立起全自動化的收眼平台那我們會持續的來優化我們徵訊防制的能量同時也持續的來深化國際合作的交流活動共同來遏制中共對我國在徵訊散佈所引發的相關威脅"},{"start":2854.195,"end":2874.799,"text":"第五 我們會綿密各項警衛的部署構建整體危安的防護那本局會協同我們國安情報團隊持續地來掌搜各類危安的預警以及應處緊急突發的狀況以便來綿密我們各項警衛部署的工作確保安危對象絕對安全最後一部分是有關於捷運面臨到全球地緣政治"},{"start":2875.279,"end":2892.862,"text":"跟區域安全情勢複雜多變我們國安情報團隊會持續的來跟政府各部會通力合作並且來推升跟國際友盟的情報夥伴關係以便來建構更為堅韌的國家安全情報網絡那以上的報告敬請各位委員先進持續給我們的一些批評跟指教謝謝"},{"start":2895.879,"end":2922.5,"text":"廣遠 廣遠"},{"start":3876.845,"end":3876.866,"text":"好"},{"start":3943.369,"end":3949.637,"text":"現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答請第一位羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3973.051,"end":3986.082,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長好 謝謝主席 各位很早"},{"start":3990.812,"end":4003.642,"text":"首先要跟局長探討的是這兩天全球的股災川普的關稅政策造成全球股市跌跌不休"},{"start":4008.286,"end":4022.104,"text":"當然台灣也沒有辦法倖免那川普他克正這個高關稅的理由那除了說要迫使這個工業跟製造業回流到美國要重塑全球貿易跟產業的這個供應鏈之外那也要迫使這個貿易國"},{"start":4027.45,"end":4049.212,"text":"來重啟這個談判可是本席呢認為還有更重要的一點應該就是戰略盟友的這個重新的這個篩選那再來就是要強迫全球來做這個選邊站那當然針對這一題因為你英國局長您是這個全球的戰略專家所以本席可能待會很希望就聽到您的一些見解跟一些方向"},{"start":4049.813,"end":4076.171,"text":"那當然美國這麼做他希望就是說迫使全球的這個貿易國來選邊站來消除這個模糊空間那希望就是能夠建立一個很明確的美國經濟安全的這個陣營那今天呢我在國安局的這個夜報裡面也有看出來就是說國安局其實有點出來了與此同時呢其實中國呢他也是在加強推動跟像英國、日本、印度、南韓、澳洲等國的這個接觸來修補"},{"start":4077.572,"end":4103.865,"text":"跟這些國家的這些關係那再來呢他對這個歐洲日本南韓我們也看到就是說他跟38國呢當方面來開放這個免簽等等那這種種手段我們都看得出說其實中國呢未來是要來強化拉攏其他國家來對抗美國的這個這個手段那作為台灣覺得台灣非常的小可是呢我們卻是半導體產業的重中之重那在未來"},{"start":4105.046,"end":4130.976,"text":"美中兩強在經濟上也好政治上也好他們所推動的這個陣營重組呢那到底台灣要如何來自處台灣要如何來面對那當然面對這一次的股災顧問其實很擔心我們會不會1930年代的這大蕭條那是不是會重新重演那面對這一局呢台灣對台灣來講到底是轉機還是危機所以局長你如何來看這一局"},{"start":4131.929,"end":4161.169,"text":"我想委員的問題是大概有三個部分第一個部分是川普關稅政策背後的動機第二部分是中共怎麼因應第三部分是台灣怎麼樣在過程當中有自我的經貿戰略的定位那就川普的動機來講我想委員剛剛的說明也非常的清楚他希望推動美國的再工業化那透過關稅的政策來使各國可以加大在美國的投資那讓美國這邊可以增加他的一個相關的一個就業率那他是有一個內外的一個"},{"start":4162.39,"end":4178.089,"text":"評估的一個考量在裡面那中共的部分我們剛剛也提到了他開始去拉攏透過這種所謂的笑臉攻勢來改善跟相關國家的一個關係那也希望透過這樣的一個過程能夠來特別強化他跟南方國家"},{"start":4178.87,"end":4208.27,"text":"全球南方國家彼此之間在經貿上的一個連結那後續我覺得可能在國際上要注意到的我剛也跟我們的媒體朋友說明一方面是美中之間的關稅戰會不會持續的升溫那第二部分是保護主義的浪潮會不會在國際經貿體系再現那第三個部分就有關於可能在整個新的一個發展過程當中會不會有雙邊跟多邊的FTA的倡議會有更多國家來提出來這也是要觀察的重點"},{"start":4209.03,"end":4226.455,"text":"就我國的一個本身的因應來講剛剛媒體朋友也在關注第一個部分我想我們提出來的並不是一個報復的措施我們提出來的是具體的解決方案所以總統也整合到我們的服務院的團隊有跟企業界包括高科技的產業以及傳統產業不斷地座談"},{"start":4228.275,"end":4243.133,"text":"來了解到這樣的關稅政策可能對我們產業產生的衝擊是什麼在了解之後再提出了相關的應應做法包括短期怎麼樣有一些應急的措施中長期也有一個比較長期的產業佈局來維持我們產業的競爭力那第二部分我剛剛也跟媒體說明"},{"start":4244.754,"end":4263.985,"text":"總統也指示我們要啟動我們的戰略溝通台美之間所以我們在週末的時候已經跟美方來表達我們對於進行關稅協商的一個立場還有一些提議那美方也由他們的白宮的資深官員對外證實台美已經有啟動這樣的一個溝通的機制那第三個部分是我們怎麼樣來"},{"start":4266.026,"end":4285.036,"text":"針對台美後續可能展開的關稅的協商來做準備那這部分總統跟府院團隊已經召開非常非常多次的會議那包括怎麼樣來啟動所謂的零關稅的協商那以及來撤除所謂的非關稅的障礙那另外也涉及到怎麼樣來避免洗產地或加強這個所謂的"},{"start":4288.638,"end":4305.775,"text":"出口管制的一個機制那同時來加大對美的投資跟採購那大概我們的一個方案是還蠻完整的所以假如有機會可以啟動台美的關稅協商的話我相信雙方應該很容易就可以對焦那能夠有一些比較快的一個進展來推動這大概是我們初步的觀察"},{"start":4306.315,"end":4331.001,"text":"局長我們跟台美之間我們要啟動這個談判的這個時機那當然我昨天也看到媒體有報導就是說我們可能在排序上面不會是很前面我們可能會比較後面所以局長你認為這個部分因為我剛剛有提到就是說我們作為這個半導體的這個重中之重那當然我在想這部分我們跟美國的談判的這個時機點你認為說會是在什麼時候然後這個"},{"start":4334.283,"end":4342.857,"text":"高關稅的這個這個波動到底會不會有一個以你的情節來講會不會有沒有一個時間點會在什麼時候收斂這個部分"},{"start":4346.762,"end":4368.713,"text":"在這部分來講我們所知道的因為現在有很多國家應該以美國官方的說法已經有七十幾個國家希望跟美國來進行相關的關稅協商就我們所知道的他們正在做蠻密集的開會在做必要的評估那有一些比較優先的名單那我們也是期待台灣可以很快的在優先名單當中那讓雙方盡快來啟動相關的協商談判OK 好"},{"start":4373.126,"end":4402.177,"text":"那這一題先到這裡因為我還有第二題我想要邀請的是我們調查局我們陳局長你也先留步喔因為這個部分跟剛剛我們局長的報告也有關係就提到就是說有關這個共諜案剛剛我們局長的報告就是說從2020年開始到現在我們共諜案起訴的人數總共有159人那其中呢現役跟退役的軍人有"},{"start":4403.178,"end":4429.08,"text":"95人 非常的高佔了這個共諜案的60%所以現在我們也看到就是說不管是軍人也好或政府機關其實被滲透是非常嚴重的那本席要提到就是說其實上個禮拜就發生了這個國會助理被滲透的事情當然這事情也發生在我的前助理的這個身上我想請教就是調查局這裡我想你們跟蹤你們在跟蹤一個涉案人"},{"start":4429.72,"end":4450.996,"text":"涉案人絕對不是一天兩天尤其是一年兩年是三年四年的時間可是各個辦公室其實在徵聘這一個助理的時候其實看的也就是他的履歷我們從履歷上面根本看不到看不出來他曾經涉及什麼案子可是我在想國安單位應該是知道的因為這部分沒有辦法就是說"},{"start":4452.197,"end":4466.393,"text":"你們在追蹤這個事案的時候可以給辦公室我想所有不管是執政黨也好在野黨也好面臨這種問題的時候當他應聘進來的助理其實有涉及這個國安問題有沒有辦法去做一個警示"},{"start":4467.355,"end":4486.209,"text":"有沒有辦法給辦公室做一個警示跟委員報告因為這個涉及到刑事訴訟法有關偵查不公開的問題所以在案件執行之前提供這樣子的示警在法律上對我們來說是有限制的所以你們的做法會是什麼呢就是說靜觀其變嗎"},{"start":4487.63,"end":4502.985,"text":"我們當然在希望能夠在最短的時間內把這個案件偵破那我們的目的其實是要瓦解是要瓦解他的這個危害的產生所以我們會用最快的方式然後盡最大的努力去對這個對象來做調查"},{"start":4506.198,"end":4522.129,"text":"所以因為最近也跟各個辦公室在討論之前大家就會覺得說 哇 這種完全是防不設防因為你們有辦案的這個方式那辦公室也不知情所以當然就是會在毫無知情的情況之下你可能就是應聘了 可能就涉案的這個助理"},{"start":4523.57,"end":4544.155,"text":"所以對辦公室未來可能就是在應聘助理的時候難道像尤其是我們是國防外交的委員就是每次在應聘助理的時候就要請示一下國安單位這個助理的背景嗎這有辦法做到嗎我想這個部分可能就是在特殊查核的部分有在讓他在健全"},{"start":4545.795,"end":4572.761,"text":"的一個努力的空間目前我們有執行這個涉及到國家安全以及重大利益的這些公務人員的特殊查核不過他是正面表列的目前大概有1328個職位是必須要特殊查核但是這1328不含國會助理那當然我們可能有些助理有些僱員他們可能不知道說這種涉及這個供給滲透這個"},{"start":4575.702,"end":4603.277,"text":"這個案子是多麼嚴重的一件事情所以我在想說未來我們國安單位可以跟像政府機關也好或相關單位來做一個提供一個反滲透的一個課程針對這一個公務人員啊助理啊等等是是對我是想想說這個可能是需要進行的啦這個部分可以是是OK好以上謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員上台的質詢第二位是西角星委員上台質詢"},{"start":4615.569,"end":4621.677,"text":"謝謝主席我們請國安局局長還有我們這個調查局局長也一起好了"},{"start":4626.428,"end":4653.584,"text":"好 謝謝主席 薛委員早好 早安第一個議題我要談的是匪諜就在總統府我們一直在外交國防委員會裡面國安局的夜報當中我們都不斷地在講匪諜 匪諜 匪諜我們要怎麼樣來克制跟抓到這些匪諜都是我們一直在談論的話題可是我們現在發現這一次總共有四名被告而且可能還有人正在被調查當中"},{"start":4654.484,"end":4674.062,"text":"包含這個游錫坤院長辦公室之前的這個助理楚聖聖楚英之外請問還有哪一些關係人因為國安涉及相關的法律正在被羈押或者是說那受到這個相關的影響因為有些個人還在偵辦當中我們實在不方便公開討論所以好問你 邱氏緣有沒有"},{"start":4679.278,"end":4693.498,"text":"沒有 他已經在偵辦過程當中對啊 沒有 我就問有沒有嘛我們是不適合對外來說明這些案情的所以邱志文沒有我們沒有辦法說明案情那吳尚宇有沒有"},{"start":4694.178,"end":4719.407,"text":"沒有辦法說明案件黃曲榮有沒有已經在偵辦的案件不適合公開說明所以已經在北檢二月中尋發動搜索傳訊邱、吳、黃三個人之後認為范嫻重大有串證之餘向法院深壓獲准甚則在約談後以二十萬交保請問一下調查局這邊是否有這件事情"},{"start":4722.09,"end":4740.708,"text":"包委員您剛已經說了那相關的內容我們就沒辦法評論那它是屬於國安相關的議題嗎是一個犯罪的案件一個犯罪的案件但不見得是國安的議題這個我沒辦法說明你看你們碰到有其他單位的共諜的時候你們講得很快"},{"start":4742.469,"end":4755.162,"text":"匪諜就在總統府的時候大家就都不評論了每一個人都說不知道每一個人都說哎呀這個我們不能說明來我們看一下我們看一下這個人呢大家現在都知道他是共諜了然後呢20萬就能夠交保"},{"start":4758.365,"end":4769.978,"text":"我們看交保的金額柯文哲第一次三千萬第二次七千萬鄭文燦五百一千二兩千八張顯耀也是被捲入所謂的國安相關的事件是一百萬我們來看一下這個關係圖喔好"},{"start":4773.622,"end":4792.253,"text":"邱士源他是民進黨的黨工也是呢台灣民主學院的副主任在2023年初的時候離開了黨中央那他呢政治欠金捐款的對象包括了民進黨蔡英文陳亭霏跟黃真玲那他有領取民進黨的薪資2019年到2020年也是領取蔡英文總統的這個競選資金"},{"start":4798.917,"end":4812.504,"text":"那另外呢他也透過這個我們剛剛講的是邱士源中間這個人他也透過另外一名台商黃曲榮根據李語典的說法呢他只是做文宣的工作可是黃曲榮這個黃曲榮左下角"},{"start":4815.666,"end":4828.949,"text":"他在分享鯉魚點演書的時候分享很多說鯉魚點他是現任的某個理事長一起當理事等等看起來他們是相當的熟悉所以就用黃曲榮他跟台商的身分來跟吳世元、邱世元他們來做接洽"},{"start":4840.191,"end":4845.773,"text":"那再來呢 就到了這個吳尚宇這個地方吳尚宇呢 他最重要的是吳曲榮他透過這個關係又接觸到了這個吳尚宇透過邱氏緣介紹了吳尚宇那吳尚宇呢 這個呢 是總統府的姿意那此時呢 這個共諜就滲透到總統府來了"},{"start":4862.398,"end":4875.993,"text":"他是從文化總會進來的跟著李厚慶一直也是李厚慶一直是民進黨相當核心的人物所以才有辦法被聘為總統府辦公室的姿意那最麻煩的事情是呢那他在112年8月12號到112年8月18號隨同賴清德副總統"},{"start":4884.702,"end":4903.742,"text":"出訪巴拉圭所以他可能可以拿到的是外交部出國計畫的執行報告表可能是這樣子我要問的事情是除了這幾個人現在正在被調查當中之外還有沒有其他被調查的嫌疑人"},{"start":4904.463,"end":4928.865,"text":"因為在調查當中的案件我們不可能來公開說明所以好那我告訴你其實你們還有另外一個人呢你們應該要去調查的叫做何仁傑我們目前都還沒有看到他的名字但是呢這個人據說也在被調查當中大地震你看講到這個匪諜大地震就來了這個好我繼續講"},{"start":4930.006,"end":4949.333,"text":"那這個他呢是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員不僅有綠營的背景也有公務員的身份甚至傳出他可能曾經是吳釗燮的秘書那請問這個人是不是有以上的身份"},{"start":4951.495,"end":4975.073,"text":"這是委員自己的評論我只問他是不是新境界文教基金會的幕僚外交部北美司的專員然後呢他曾經是不是吳釗燮的秘書這三件事情而已跟他是否有有沒有這個是所謂的共點沒有關聯啊我只問這三件事情而已委員在播放這些資料跟照片可能還是要注意一下各自的問題"},{"start":4975.996,"end":5001.197,"text":"沒有啊這都是網路公開的啊還是要注意一下我提醒你還是要注意一下因為有些資料是錯誤的這都外交部提供外交部網站上的那你們外交部是不是要注意一下沒有有些資料沒有沒有這是外交部的網站上面IEAT提供然後呢右邊是新境界文化小組國防政策小組的2015年的五月報告提供完全都是你上網可以看到的"},{"start":5001.537,"end":5019.157,"text":"所以如果你覺得應該要去注意一下他所謂的個資是不是要跟這兩個公開的幹部去溝通而不是我我在網路上查到的資訊不就是公開資訊嗎我在講這一位我們都沒有看到他的名字但是據說他是被抓到說在刺探帛琉的情報"},{"start":5019.938,"end":5045.134,"text":"所以我要請國安局也要針對這個部分來進行調查再來第二個主題我們要講的是大罷免、大間諜剛才羅美玲委員已經講了這個所謂的馬修、楚勝英他在民進黨裡面相當的有人員然後他的代號、綽號叫做馬修為了取得民進黨的信任他還主動的參與罷免案"},{"start":5047.495,"end":5065.242,"text":"然後去罷免廖先祥委員那作為志工其實他的身份是共諜然後呢擔任過很多民進黨代表的助理去刺探情報從2019年到2024年都在民進黨的辦公室裡面任職一共服務過八個民代其中能夠接觸到"},{"start":5066.722,"end":5089.64,"text":"機密資料的是從2022年開始服務過的可能接觸到機密資料的包含游錫坤前院長然後羅智政委員跟羅美玲委員他都是屬於國防外交委員會的想要去探測國家機密的意圖相當明顯為什麼他只要20萬就能夠交保"},{"start":5091.843,"end":5108.777,"text":"我們應該是對於所謂的共諜匪諜用最嚴格的方式然後來管控他為什麼剛剛連羅美玲委員她都已經說了她也不知道要怎麼審核這些人為什麼我們20萬就讓她交保了這部分我們國安單位我們尊重審理機關法院相關的裁決"},{"start":5109.477,"end":5137.107,"text":"OK 好 再來我要繼續講那我們可以看到這個楚勝英就被疑似被認為共諜的這個楚勝英他跟這個曹新成的關係可以說相當好為什麼呢因為他們要一起罷免廖先祥所以呢曹新成他特別講他特別講到什麼呢他特別講到說徐巧欣 王宏威跟羅志強我們三個人我們是中共的地下黨員"},{"start":5138.527,"end":5165.245,"text":"好來我給大家看你看不清楚沒關係但是呢他主要講到的是我跟王宏威還有羅志強跟傅坤琪是中共地下黨員那我必須要講如果徐巧欣是中共的地下黨員國安局應該要立刻對我進行調查也不需要去罷免了因為我們有國安武法可以立刻就用反滲透法的相關法律抓去坐牢"},{"start":5165.865,"end":5184.2,"text":"那如果不是是這些寫文章的人在造謠也應該要針對這個相關的調查進行澄清還我本人一個清白因為我是在外交國防委員會的我們會見到一些機密性的資料那如果真的是地下黨員的話對國家的影響巨大那此類傳聞是不是就不是我們需要一個答案請問我們局長的看法是什麼"},{"start":5195.134,"end":5216.893,"text":"我想對於一些涉及到可能共諜案的人士就我們國安情報機關或檢調機關我們比較重視的是他有沒有哪些的犯行以及他的犯行有沒有符合我們法律的要件對於這些人他的政治的言論或政治的活動這不是我們國安單位發出的作用我要問一個立法委員他能不能夠做中共地下黨員"},{"start":5219.779,"end":5229.874,"text":"這部分委員要不要自己去跟外界來做一些說明我問你的問題是一個立法委員如果他同時是中共的地下黨員的話"},{"start":5231.813,"end":5256.318,"text":"但假如這是假設性的問題假設性的問題沒有有可能是真的啊你怎麼知道有沒有人被滲透啊但假如真的有這樣的狀況的話我們當然會啟動我們相關的查查是嘛你會啟動國安無法嘛對不對當然要抓起來啊我們在外交國防委員會裡面接觸到這麼多機密的資訊然後呢他是中共的地下黨員然後呢他涉嫌去刺探做組織去販賣情報給中共"},{"start":5259.119,"end":5266.105,"text":"那這難道不用抓起來嗎難道不用關起來嗎國安單位難道不用調查嗎另一方面委員要是認為相關的言論不實的話也可以提告對 這不是提告的問題嘛曹新成他是我們國防什麼全民任性委員會的顧問他是我們全民國防任性委員會的顧問"},{"start":5281.178,"end":5297.364,"text":"公開的指涉在我們國家裡面在我們的立法院裡面有非常多位甚至他直接把所有國民黨的立法委員都指稱為共諜這件事情作為一個國安局長你覺得妥當嗎"},{"start":5299.358,"end":5307.065,"text":"對,假如有涉及到這些法律的問題的話,建議委員可以提告不是不是,我要問你的觀點,不是提告的觀點假如真的有,假如真的有的話,我們當然會啟動偵辦那你要不要來對我們來做偵查嗎?我今天已經告訴你啦,我們全民任性委員會的顧問說我們國民黨的都是共諜,那國安局不需要調查嗎?"},{"start":5324.246,"end":5329.289,"text":"已經有人公開提供啦 全民任性委員會的顧問就有三個人他告訴你 他告訴國安局 告訴相關單位告訴所有的人 說許曉鑫 各位在座藍營的都是中共同路人 是匪諜然後呢 說我們是地下黨員 是中共的地下黨員國安局完全不關你的事嗎那養你們那麼多人是幹嘛用的"},{"start":5352.6,"end":5374.378,"text":"你們不需要幫大家去做一個調查跟澄清嗎是不是就不是嘛對於各種的政治人物的政治攻防他不是政治人物他是全民有違反法律要件的話涉及到共諜的話我們一定會介入那請問我有涉及到嗎政治人物之間的政治攻防他不是政治人物喔他是全民任性社會委員會的顧問"},{"start":5377.6,"end":5400.601,"text":"他不是只是政治人物 他還是文化總會的執行委員他不是 他是在公職系統裡面的其中一位相當重要的人物而且全民防衛任性委員會就是跟相關的國安系統有關係的那如果他都已經指控我們是共諜的話國安局不應該有任何動作嗎"},{"start":5401.341,"end":5425.073,"text":"對公眾人物的政治攻防我們實在不想設他不是公眾人物嘛假如假設他不只是公眾人物嘛所以你要不要來調查我給你七天的時間來調查我可以嗎有相關的違反法律要求的話我給你七天的時間來調查我反而我們一個清白可以嗎謝謝委員所以你的意思是說即便是全民國防任性委員會的顧問"},{"start":5428.038,"end":5434.9,"text":"無端的指控國民黨的立法委員是共諜是中共的地下黨員你都認為說跟國安局沒有關係不需要調查只要提告就好了所以那請問我有沒有相關的好我問你喔請問國安局到目前為止到目前為止"},{"start":5449.784,"end":5453.426,"text":"對我徐草心本人你們有沒有發現或是調查到任何違反國安相關法律的證據不是假設啊你有調查到就有調查到沒調查到就沒調查到啊這是是跟非事實的問題嘛這是事實的問題嘛沒有沒有沒有這個不是操作這是事實的問題你如果有調查到或者是說我曾經發表過"},{"start":5478.041,"end":5482.402,"text":"你們認為有超過所謂中華民國憲法界限的超過國安界限的或調查到國安界限的資料你認為有或是沒有嗎有或是沒有嗎這不是政治的操作這是我本人請問你們有沒有認為認定我有介入到國安相關的法律我們真的有設法的話我們會介入"},{"start":5503.306,"end":5513.214,"text":"所以你們目前有介入嗎你們現在有沒有介入你們現在有沒有介入調查我本人我沒有在管人家我只問國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員有沒有介入國安局有沒有介入調查國民黨的立法委員"},{"start":5532.762,"end":5555.603,"text":"有沒有介入有沒有正在調查任何一位都可以假如是正在這是假設性的問題假如是正在調查的話我怎麼可能在這個場合去回答你正在偵查的個案呢好 所以有可能嘛對不對我沒有辦法回答因為這是假設性的問題好 有可能嘛好 謝謝這是委員的詮釋我們沒有認可好 請回謝謝市長 新委員的上台質詢"},{"start":5567.79,"end":5571.373,"text":"好那我們下一位請黃仁昭委進行質詢有請蔡局長回調查局局長好那我們請這個蔡局長以及調查局局長好謝謝主席黃委員早早"},{"start":5592.878,"end":5617.578,"text":"我們現在提到的是能言安全對防衛韌性的重要性在賴總統去年的宣布成立全社會防衛韌性委員會顯然賴總統將國家安全以及對抗中共壓力的層面擴展到社會、民生、經濟、精神力等方面的那請教一下"},{"start":5618.632,"end":5630.702,"text":"局長你認為確保能源安全以強化國防韌性是否有正相關當然我想能源安全是整體的國家安全重要的一環好"},{"start":5633.178,"end":5650.907,"text":"為什麼要談到這個就是要提出台灣面臨的挑戰中關係到能源安全的部分有三個弱點第一個台灣自產的煤油天然氣等能源有限以油為例我們自產佔比率值3.3%整體能源將近有97.3%來自於進口"},{"start":5660.251,"end":5674.941,"text":"第二,台灣是海島,外購能源只透過海陸進口,取得路徑極度受限。第三,與中國大陸距離非常近,海運航路存在極高的潛戰風險。"},{"start":5681.805,"end":5707.103,"text":"封控台海周邊就可以知道以上的弱點美國也注意到AIT處長古麗妍日前接受媒體的專訪的時候指出洗脫台灣及美國公司非常擔心台灣能源問題美國可以給台灣包含核能的可靠能源來源她還特別強調核能的重要性"},{"start":5707.703,"end":5736.629,"text":"关于核能放盐全世界可以看到包含美国日本在内都有复振复兴使用核能的状况这是由于很多公司需要有稳定的积载电力尤其在数据中中芯等AI相关产业上一个会议本席和许多同仁对于国防部的议算提出"},{"start":5737.569,"end":5765.326,"text":"煽动提案这是基于立委的职责但是切不断的执政党的造谣说南白立委这是这个煽动国防议算是在弱化我国的经历是在受中共的指示习近平高兴那现在我们在这里确定的能演的安全和国家的安全高度正相关所以依照民进党的逻辑"},{"start":5766.726,"end":5790.466,"text":"弱化台湾的能源安全就是弱化国家的安全而民进党长久以来一直反对核能这个可靠的积载电力来源那废除核四后台湾的能源安全陷入了极度的不安定那按照民进党的逻辑本席有理由相信民进党正在弱化我国的"},{"start":5790.926,"end":5819.856,"text":"防衛任性配合中共圍台窮台的戰略目標配合中共打擊台灣經濟民生習近平會非常的高興原來最大的在地協力者是民進黨你認為呢我想政府一直在推動能源的多元化委員在圖表上面也有特別指出來像在綠能的部分跟燃氣的部分大概都是現在政府在推動能源多元化這幾年來的一個努力的方向"},{"start":5820.973,"end":5849.335,"text":"所以你認為我們對於國防的軍力的煽動的部分是對我們藍牌藍牌有些不公平的地方因為有些地方是福報或者說福編的當然我們今天要強力的監督我們的軍備我們的戰力跟我們的經過是不是有精準的你們的計算裡面然後讓我們的這預算能夠"},{"start":5850.704,"end":5851.611,"text":"戳在刀口上"},{"start":5852.648,"end":5880.351,"text":"所以今天我們講的,剛剛我們徐巧欣委員也特別講在這個國安局今天的報告中提到中共對我滲透手法越趨多言加上近期爆發多起疑似民進黨人士遭中共情治單位吸收成為供點的案件確實發現中共的滲透不只是手法多言對象也非常的多言所以我們疑似供點的民進黨人士的無謀"},{"start":5883.272,"end":5901.176,"text":"總統府辦公室的姿意聖母還有秋母和黃母在目前來講請問一下這個案件掌握涉案人數層級以及所涉及的機密或情質範圍有沒有進一步的擴大趨勢另外"},{"start":5905.496,"end":5929.714,"text":"請教這個是案件是屬於個案的程度還是屬於系統性的案子對跟委員說明一下因為共諜案它涉及到的是背叛國家跟傷害國家的意義所以就我們國安情報團隊來講只要有相關的事證或跡象的話我們一定會啟動我們的機制來做全面的清查不分黨派也不管他是什麼樣的職務那也才會有一些共諜案"},{"start":5930.274,"end":5947.701,"text":"不斷的被偵辦那我們在夜報當中也去提到在過去這五年就159位遭到起訴那後續來講我想我們努力的重點一方面是速辦第二方面是嚴懲我們希望加強相關偵辦的一個速度達到一個嚇阻的效果"},{"start":5948.061,"end":5969.125,"text":"不但能夠呈案而且能夠定罪那第二部分要嚴懲的話有涉及到法律可能有必須要再做進一步強化的部分那這部分我們跟法務部也有在討論怎麼樣針對現在的國安法制的一些條文有比較模糊的地方再做一些必要的修正到時候假如有送到貴院來希望大院能夠來給予支持好 請教一下這是系統性的案件"},{"start":5970.765,"end":5992.777,"text":"就我們共諜案來講大概中共對台的相關的共諜或統戰的滲透它本來就是有系統的,它們都是全面的因為現在已經多區區域的多元化,區項也多元化了它面對所選擇性的都已經是包羅萬象所以是不是已經是作為一個系統性的一個案件了,對不對"},{"start":5993.537,"end":6011.385,"text":"對 中共對台的這些相關的共諜的部署或在地協力者的組織的發展確實有它的一個系統性還有步驟的在推動這是為什麼我們就國安單位來講我們自己覺得這樣的一個挑戰非常的大法制面還有在查處面我們都必須要整合我們團隊的力量來進行查處"},{"start":6012.566,"end":6038.787,"text":"所以既然已經系統性的案件裡面來講的話這個就是我們國安特別特別的注意到因為它是區域多元化而且面對的不分政黨而且是尤其是目前民進黨人士裡面的全面清查不分黨派那法務局長請回法官好局長請回沒有了那我想請教一下海巡署"},{"start":6046.54,"end":6056.706,"text":"委員好請問一下署長 是不是聽到署裡面人員對於加薪有所期望的聲音那另外就是近期媒體探討國軍軍職人員薪資調高海巡署的軍職人員欠位"},{"start":6062.97,"end":6083.089,"text":"隨時調整導致海巡警察人員心聲不滿但是海巡所卻發聲新聞登載騰青表示這是任職作戰還說政府歷年持續調整軍公教人員的待遇他們的薪水其實不低那我們在國內的這個"},{"start":6086.195,"end":6112.923,"text":"警察安全人員保護人民是第一個戰線目前我們中共繞台次數已經加倍甚至淩進到我們12海里過去裡面的經濟海域24海里現在已經進入到幾乎到12海里那我們的海巡署是第一站在第一線有沒有必要要為他們發聲"},{"start":6114.944,"end":6135.04,"text":"調整他們的薪資 有沒有這邊特別跟委員澄清那因為這次的四一要調薪是國軍體系的調薪那我們署裡面的軍職同仁同樣也是列在這個裡面所以沒有所謂的我們軍職同仁沒有調薪這個問題特別跟委員報告"},{"start":6135.74,"end":6158.495,"text":"那另外我們署名現在有四種身份的人軍警還有文職人員跟官務人員他們適用各自不同的人事法規跟命令待遇跟福利當然有所不同那我們海巡署對於同仁的福利待遇一向都是積極爭取的那這個部分我們會配合行政院政策來全力幫同仁爭取以上報告"},{"start":6158.715,"end":6186.176,"text":"好 橫向聯繫很重要也要跟我們的上層來做一個說明今天海巡署都是站在第一線目前中共的腦台裡面已經對我們台灣的國家的安全非常的威脅所以海巡署我必須跟海巡署人員要說一個道理化應該要有所調整 好不好好 謝謝委員的鼓勵"},{"start":6203.297,"end":6231.426,"text":"接下來由陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請我們蔡局長好 局長 早蔡委員早"},{"start":6232.452,"end":6255.86,"text":"局長我想針對我們這幾天大家關心的共諜滲透的問題來就教我們局長因為最近包括負責總統府的維安的憲兵也有我們立法院國會助理等等因為洩漏內部的資料給中共而被逮捕或是判刑"},{"start":6257.54,"end":6264.842,"text":"美國的媒體都報導說我們總統身旁出現共諜但是這個共諜滲透並非新的問題國安團隊我們也有提出因應的相關作為但是這個滲透的層級為什麼會越來越高它所造成的漏洞"},{"start":6279.383,"end":6302.037,"text":"的這個核心問題到底在哪裡另外就是我們國安局對於這種潛伏其中的這種共諜我們有沒有什麼樣的一個防範的一個措施好 跟柯委員最後說明就中共在對台進行這些在地協力者或共諜的部件它常常會滿全面式的來篩選特定的一個目標"},{"start":6302.717,"end":6331.728,"text":"那我們在夜報的內容也跟各位委員先進有說明到那像是軍中他可能會鎖定一些重要的單位希望能夠來刺密取得相關的機敏的情訊有助於中共未來在對台進行軍事活動的時候有相關的軍事資訊來支撐那第二部分也會去接觸到一些重要的黨政人士或是我們剛剛也有委員在關切的立法院的內部因為這些單位比較容易去接觸到政府"},{"start":6332.068,"end":6349.662,"text":"合密的一些資料那假如我們在內部對於人員的安全查核的機制不夠健全的話自然就會產生委員所擔心的漏洞的問題那這是我了解到有些貴院的委員也在想要提出相關的一些法規能夠讓立法院這邊在"},{"start":6351.283,"end":6380.861,"text":"立委助理的部分能夠有一個安全查核的一個過程那很願意來提供我們國安單位的做法那像我們局裡面有180幾個職務都有類似列為核密查核的對象那在核密的過程當中又有分甲級以及丙級可以接觸到絕對機密及機密跟機密那所以假如能夠建立起這樣的一個核密機密的一個分類分級的管制的標準的話那可能在這部分的漏洞會比較減少一點以上意見提供給"},{"start":6382.003,"end":6386.774,"text":"謝謝局長我建議就是我們在行政部門或是包括立法院的國會助理"},{"start":6388.359,"end":6414.282,"text":"我們在審核的部分是不是可以來研擬一套新的方式來提供給我們行政部門跟立法院的相關國會助理的審查避免剛剛講的這種情勢再發生我想這也是非常重要因為這些人都是涉及到非常多機敏的相關資料那也會是中共要滲透的一個"},{"start":6414.842,"end":6437.131,"text":"重點的一個對象所以我想說這是不是請局長跟我們同仁是不是在這個會後可以去研擬看看提高我們這個審查的這個方式來協助我們相關需要的這個部門能夠有一個比較嚴謹比較神秘的一個審查我們很願意分享我們的一些經驗給各單位來做參考"},{"start":6437.791,"end":6465.91,"text":"那另外我們國安局有這個提到我們供碟滲透的手法分析報告那去年這個供碟案起訴了這個人數達到64人那在以2021年來看是4倍之多那進一步我們分析供碟的類型歸納出這個五大滲透管道及四大手法那今年所偵辦的案件起訴案件有15件主要的滲透手法跟對象"},{"start":6466.93,"end":6480.259,"text":"有無轉變那另外政府是不是能夠有效的來反制另外我們國安局是否可以再提高揭露的頻率以提升我們國人保防安全的相關意識"},{"start":6481.176,"end":6500.862,"text":"對,最後這一點揭露的部分,政務委員也注意到我們現在開始有這種所謂的專題的報告,來針對這些涉及到國安的議題,那透過一個比較完整的分析,以及這些案件樣態的一個進入比較深層的討論,來讓我們社會大眾更有這樣的一個保防為安的知覺。"},{"start":6501.542,"end":6529.429,"text":"那能夠強化我們的相關的社會的韌性那另外一部分法制的強化也是非常的重要我在會議之前也跟媒體朋友做說明跟報告也就是說怎麼樣來看我們目前的法制有沒有哪些的漏洞可以強化的因為中共在這個部分他們會去針對我們法制的不足的地方來進行一些所謂的人員的部署舉個例子像國安法我們國安法第二條只提到了發展組織罪有相關的刑責"},{"start":6530.289,"end":6545.804,"text":"並沒有參與組織罪的行者發展的人有事 參與的人沒事那這就代表我們在法制上還有一些更精進的空間那這部分也跟法務部的正部長有在討論這一塊怎麼樣來做一些必要的修法那假如法案有送到貴院來也希望委員可以大力的來支持"},{"start":6546.172,"end":6573.084,"text":"好,這部分再請我們管局這邊盡速來這個送繩那另外就是我們中共這個軍演跟內部的整肅的相關問題我想還是就叫我們局長那在上週這個中共有進行這個海峽雷霆2025A的這個軍演那是在我們賴總統3月中宣布國安17條之後中共"},{"start":6575.084,"end":6591.714,"text":"實施的聯合戰備警巡之後再次發動重大的軍演我想請教局長他這個真正的目的是什麼以及他想釋放的訊息為何另外就是"},{"start":6592.234,"end":6618.739,"text":"中共藉由這次的軍演是不是在測試川普新政府及我們其他這個盟友的一個底線是不是如此對 事實上這一次的演習的時間點確實是比較特殊因為總統是在3月13號召開國安高層會議做了一些加強我們防制中共滲透的一些措施的宣布但是演習的時間是拖到了4月1號跟2號那一般來講假如是針對性的演習的話時間不會拖這麼長"},{"start":6621.48,"end":6638.471,"text":"所以我們在判斷上當然透過這個演習可以對台進行一些施壓這是演習的目的之一另外在那個時間點剛好是美國他們的國防部有一些情資被媒體報導認為說美國有一些相關的國防建制的計畫重點是在置中保台"},{"start":6638.931,"end":6661.647,"text":"那這種的一個國防政策計畫可能也讓中共有點希望能夠透過軍演來表達他們的一個基本的底線跟立場那特別那個時間點也是美國的國防部長到關島到了日本到了菲律賓訪問之後的隔一天來舉行演習所以這次演習應該還是有對美國印太戰略進行反制佈局的一個效果第三個面向是中共內部的問題"},{"start":6662.828,"end":6683.933,"text":"因為目前中共正在進行一些軍中將領的整肅那委員不知道有沒有注意到那被整肅的很多都是東部戰區或是有31集團軍背景的這些將領那在整肅的過程當中透過這種軍事的演訓的話也可以來讓解放軍的部隊更專注在戰訓而不要去因為的"},{"start":6684.813,"end":6702.612,"text":"這些政治的整肅而去動搖到他的軍心那另一方面在整肅過程當中透過軍演他也可以讓外界來展示說即使內部有這麼多的問題他還是有一定的戰力可以來對外來呈現所以我們大概是從這三個層次來跟委員報告可能這一次中共軍演背後的戰略的盤算跟動機"},{"start":6703.373,"end":6726.798,"text":"好,那我接著問那個請教我們局長,就剛剛講的中共進來就在整肅嘛,那對於他整肅的對象包括這個中央軍委的副主席這個何惠東還有東部戰區的司令林向陽,那他這個部分是不是因為他們有涉入這個洩漏對台的相關作戰計畫而遭到這個整肅?"},{"start":6727.678,"end":6746.233,"text":"對 目前確實有各種的說法這是其中的一種說法那有的也是涉及到可能有貪腐的問題那也有人認為說可能是對習近平的忠誠度遭到質疑那這部分的資訊非常的分雜那因為事件也還在整肅的進行過程當中我們會持續來注意到底什麼才是真正的原因好"},{"start":6746.733,"end":6772.397,"text":"另外我想請教局長就是我們從去年的這個聯合力艦還有今年的這個海峽雷霆它所釋出的相關這個宣傳的短影片內容裡面有秀出一張台灣地圖它鎖定台北市台中高雄還有花蓮縣為四個紅心的這個目標那另外當然還有其他五個未標注地點包括宜蘭縣的這個地點在演習的代號的轉變上"},{"start":6776.459,"end":6796.381,"text":"他所釋出的這個短片中鎖定特定的縣市有無特殊的這個政治或是軍事的意涵我們覺得他有他政治的意涵在那中共他現在在進行對台的一些演訓的動作常常會有一些徵訊的操作而現在徵訊的操作比較常看到的是有影片跟圖卡"},{"start":6797.182,"end":6810.735,"text":"那利用這種影片跟圖卡的一個操作來凸顯到好像台灣已經兵兇戰危讓我們的民眾感受到這種危機感那我想這一些演習過程當中的證訊操作也是本局在"},{"start":6812.636,"end":6837.003,"text":"觀察演習過程當中中共動作裡面非常重要的一環所以在今天的夜報當中我們也是除了說明中共對台的武力脅迫以外又針對偵訊的部分去說明到我們怎麼樣透過我們的自動查找的系統來掌握它散佈的一個網絡那以及怎麼樣運用AI的技術來製造這些圖卡或是影音來影響國人的相關的認知這是我們的關注重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":6837.363,"end":6858.233,"text":"好 那就下個月下個月就是我們這個總統就職週年了那共軍是不是有可能進行更大規模的這個行動我們這個國安局有沒有掌握相關的我們會注意因為現在中共的相關的演習也跟委員報告說明他這些演習有很多也是把他例行性的演習給拼湊在一起是"},{"start":6858.673,"end":6876.389,"text":"對 以剛剛委員提到4月1號、2號的海峽雷霆2025A我們就注意到了它有結合到北部戰區的遠海長航跟山東艦的遠海長航那以及相關例行性的聯合戰備警巡把它拼湊在一起變成是一個所謂的對台的正對性的演習"},{"start":6876.969,"end":6904.728,"text":"那再配合到徵訊的操作來造成國人的一種恐慌那這種的演習它要啟動會非常的快那我們也會配合到我們國安單位跟國防部來發揮我們國軍聯合情監偵的系統來盡可能的預先來掌握相關的動態不過跟委員說明的是一般的船艦它要有相關活動的話一定都會要有一個時間來動員船隻那一般它開始動員我們大概都可以有相當程度的掌握"},{"start":6905.708,"end":6933.022,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教局長,中共在上個月有舉辦兩會,全國人民代表大會及中國人民政治協商的會議,是不是會借機加大力道來操作新一波對台的這種錯假的認知攻勢,來藉此深化台灣內部的矛盾問題?"},{"start":6933.926,"end":6961.014,"text":"對他的兩會委員提到的很重要也是有趣的問題我們有發現到他的基調幾乎都沒有變近年兩會都延續到過去的基調也就是反讀促統促容那也跟委員說明我們曾經用AI的系統在兩會召開之前用AI的系統去預測今年兩會的政府工作報告對台的部分它的用語會是什麼跟委員說明的是我們事前兩會之前AI系統預測的內容跟後來出來的結果"},{"start":6963.675,"end":6989.704,"text":"都一樣85%那就代表說他一直在延續他既有的政策立場不是說AI技術很先進可以預測的準確而是中共的立場幾乎都一致強調所謂的反毒觸統出籠好 謝謝局長那期待我們國安局一起來守護國安局好 謝謝陳委員的指導 謝謝謝謝陳俊宇委員上台質詢那接下來由我們陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7015.916,"end":7032.421,"text":"你好 我們請局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早局長早 局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多"},{"start":7034.329,"end":7060.146,"text":"局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況"},{"start":7061.502,"end":7080.399,"text":"那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就職兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼"},{"start":7081.563,"end":7108.931,"text":"對 這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它承讓率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官們也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關 調查機關"},{"start":7110.812,"end":7129.735,"text":"檢察機關跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長 你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察性的狀況這就總統為安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎"},{"start":7131.191,"end":7149.286,"text":"這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人"},{"start":7149.986,"end":7175.493,"text":"那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責"},{"start":7176.533,"end":7190.823,"text":"應該縣指部 因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保祐總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責"},{"start":7191.684,"end":7215.939,"text":"各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責"},{"start":7216.719,"end":7234.451,"text":"那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊"},{"start":7235.392,"end":7250.533,"text":"當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣"},{"start":7251.714,"end":7265.48,"text":"欸 幾件啦 福建黨欸 全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛"},{"start":7267.034,"end":7293.07,"text":"如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法 立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有 就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核"},{"start":7297.506,"end":7320.126,"text":"委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理"},{"start":7321.126,"end":7338.519,"text":"我們知道沒有包含到國會處理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況"},{"start":7341.701,"end":7356.487,"text":"甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在一般的美國的一些基本上是 我了解在執行上面如果說在法律上沒有禁止的話執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面"},{"start":7357.843,"end":7377.843,"text":"應該要完備因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的他可能會涉密那這種狀況的之下行政上面是不是可以做到"},{"start":7378.624,"end":7407.75,"text":"在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的一個機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善"},{"start":7408.71,"end":7428.525,"text":"所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難"},{"start":7429.406,"end":7455.814,"text":"OK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們回去研究好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我"},{"start":7458.175,"end":7484.477,"text":"不好意思我請國安局局長好 謝謝局長我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是"},{"start":7485.177,"end":7500.83,"text":"好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況"},{"start":7502.171,"end":7528.286,"text":"還有這一個前辦公室他是在新北市的嘛 黨工的狀況他是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含他的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼"},{"start":7528.766,"end":7557.158,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們假如是要跟委員說明沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是"},{"start":7558.539,"end":7577.597,"text":"偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去阻止他什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向"},{"start":7579.218,"end":7596.793,"text":"我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的"},{"start":7597.733,"end":7626.066,"text":"會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然"},{"start":7627.643,"end":7654.48,"text":"數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的層峰是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔"},{"start":7655.922,"end":7674.905,"text":"這些都是你們的數據 這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好 因為這個從內部挖解是最容易的好 謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來是馬文京委員上台諮詢謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":7694.672,"end":7712.859,"text":"謝謝主席 王委員好局長好 局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多"},{"start":7714.201,"end":7734.15,"text":"是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極"},{"start":7736.031,"end":7750.981,"text":"所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有"},{"start":7751.761,"end":7776.682,"text":"而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人"},{"start":7782.078,"end":7808.086,"text":"判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%所以起訴率 定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%"},{"start":7812.524,"end":7837.793,"text":"85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久最重判到20年有兩位最輕的咧"},{"start":7839.136,"end":7854.791,"text":"最輕的可能一年的都有,過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們,就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定院,就是已經結束了,你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們,因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面,尤其是現在,其實他是非常重要的"},{"start":7863.519,"end":7866.822,"text":"可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響"},{"start":7885.057,"end":7907.067,"text":"其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人 其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到 因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有 跟委員說明一下 因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多 比例確實很高而且他所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透"},{"start":7909.048,"end":7915.41,"text":"我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室的助理盛楚音這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但"},{"start":7930.254,"end":7939.236,"text":"在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理所以包括羅美玲委員 郭玉琴委員許智傑委員 羅志正委員等等"},{"start":7958.16,"end":7962.144,"text":"剛剛也有委員提到 大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院 立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人 就是共匪 就是共諜"},{"start":7983.823,"end":7988.145,"text":"我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持的把關另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛"},{"start":8004.133,"end":8020.064,"text":"雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪"},{"start":8020.845,"end":8022.286,"text":"賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個"},{"start":8037.941,"end":8044.046,"text":"鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說"},{"start":8053.424,"end":8065.693,"text":"我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看"},{"start":8068.35,"end":8091.484,"text":"那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來"},{"start":8096.747,"end":8104.789,"text":"不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的年齡證包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題"},{"start":8123.175,"end":8126.939,"text":"可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊"},{"start":8138.55,"end":8141.612,"text":"他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做"},{"start":8154.358,"end":8179.58,"text":"對 這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛 密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密等級的劃分"},{"start":8180.26,"end":8199.697,"text":"所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼"},{"start":8201.258,"end":8215.345,"text":"全部統統要納入可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個"},{"start":8230.712,"end":8258.003,"text":"在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好 局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發現這是個案我不能在這邊討論個案不是你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都會是這一些案情這位是是"},{"start":8259.804,"end":8283.561,"text":"那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響"},{"start":8285.083,"end":8310.23,"text":"沒有 現在主要是我們有什麼影響沒有 現在主要是它涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啦我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定我懂文法 謝謝因為它是被檢舉的跟跟就是發現的這是案情的一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情要拆違建啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有"},{"start":8313.971,"end":8319.393,"text":"這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的"},{"start":8334.437,"end":8352.554,"text":"他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒"},{"start":8357.839,"end":8373.14,"text":"局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為那如果是公開的資訊我相信局長沒有 更為說明一下"},{"start":8375.39,"end":8380.114,"text":"你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去"},{"start":8401.411,"end":8407.035,"text":"指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理"},{"start":8419.324,"end":8422.185,"text":"他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對"},{"start":8439.133,"end":8467.892,"text":"而且是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們"},{"start":8469.413,"end":8492.472,"text":"現在發生了困境 我們大家一致對外 好不好有請國安黨委 我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是 希望我們的格局更高 更遠 更廣 而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派 沒有分人設 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝馬文君委員上台諮詢 接下來有王地宇委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8508.57,"end":8509.781,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩國安局長"},{"start":8520.654,"end":8538.024,"text":"因為我們國安局統整我們全國的情報單位那其實你們算是一個資料彙整機關提供給國家決策的參考我要問你一個新的狀況最新的消息是白宮的發言人李維特"},{"start":8539.105,"end":8567.061,"text":"他代表川普表達因為現在的時間我們現在是台灣時間的4月9號的上午那10點54分那就是美東時間華府時間他們的4月9號的晚上10點54分再過一個小時過6分鐘他們所有宣布的稅都要開始執行他們是定在4月9號華府時間凌晨0點起開始執行那你以前是外交體系我相信你了解他們的一個作業過程"},{"start":8568.444,"end":8569.729,"text":"那李威特講什麼 李威特說"},{"start":8571.075,"end":8593.766,"text":"川普總統吃軟不吃硬我簡單翻譯他的話啦意思說如果你報復你回擊那美國總統會更用力的回擊所以宣布對中國加增再加50%有人算出來說是104%其實如果加上拜登任內跟川普第一任的時候其實應該是126.1%不只104%縱使104%這也是大的事情可是後面這一段我不知道國安局有沒有掌握"},{"start":8599.318,"end":8614.613,"text":"川普表達說來中國打電話過來習近平要做什麼你先打電話過來我會對你非常的gratias我會非常的寬容來處理這個事情你們的判斷習近平會不會打這個電話公開喔他公開說你要談我會對你很寬容要不然就是100多%了"},{"start":8626.431,"end":8643.736,"text":"因為這一次全球的關稅問題不只是台美還牽涉到台灣跟周邊台灣的生產製造中心也許設在東南亞都有影響所以就你們這幾天國安會國安高層以及相關情報的收集你們認為中國會不會打這個電話"},{"start":8645.794,"end":8654.804,"text":"我想我一個國安局長我沒有辦法去解釋啦或是去建議中國領導人該怎麼做你不能建議啦我要做的是你的言析你們的研判"},{"start":8656.752,"end":8683.207,"text":"現階段來講看起來還是雙方是比較都在堅持立場的一個階段因為我比較擔心的是因為美中台三個關係其實互相是有連動的卻又互相獨立我們不容許台灣跟美國的關係被放在美國跟中國的談判桌上這是我們一貫的原則也就是美國跟台灣的外交關係的第一條鐵律就是美國不能把台灣拿去跟中國談嘛美國也承諾這一點"},{"start":8684.588,"end":8707.857,"text":"所以如果川普要求中國打這個電話那經濟的工具 關稅的工具大概用完了後面可能就是出政治的工具那政治的工具中國的台灣牌 美國的台灣牌我們台灣自己有台灣牌啦你們有沒有研判川普政府在這件事情台灣議題會不會扮演什麼角色"},{"start":8709.582,"end":8731.49,"text":"現在大概川普政府在處理上目前看起來他在經貿議題上跟安全議題上是分開來處理那也就是說他在處理關稅問題的過程當中他的防長才剛剛在亞洲地區做了非常重要的訪問重新去提出對於亞洲盟友安全以及區域現狀維護一個非常堅強的一個承諾對 他訪問前還透露給媒體他們的這個暫時性的美國國家防衛的這個"},{"start":8739.153,"end":8754.05,"text":"戰略導引嘛有置中護台的概念在裡面那這個導引裡面把台灣放在相當重要的位置所以他大概有一個所以我們現在講就是說當他在處理這個關稅的時候美國跟中國不管是雙方的領導者直接溝通或者透過一些談判"},{"start":8755.191,"end":8783.79,"text":"台灣在這裡面不應該成為議題那我們不僅要了解要研析也應該要去影響那當然你從他公佈關稅的時候他那個板子上面台灣被視為一個獨立的國家這是一個在外交上是一個正向的分裂美國的CIA把那個旗幟啦國家地理他也做一個明確的標示台灣跟中國是互不隸屬互不管轄這是一個方向所以我們現在看到就是美中如果來硬的"},{"start":8785.311,"end":8808.639,"text":"那中國的關稅一直往上堆疊而美國對中國在其他生產製造國都用高關稅來避免席產地所以我們現在派到美國的談判團隊除了要雙方希望建立零關稅其實零關稅不壞啦變FTA 雙方都零關稅其實還有一塊就是避免中國席產地如果這一個美國的策略為真的話"},{"start":8809.739,"end":8838.553,"text":"那你們國安局本身在你們資料的研析上這個發展是不是一個方向那這個方向台灣在這裡面的角色是什麼是這部分我想在總統召開相關的會議以及對外的談話已經提到了這一點那怎麼樣在進行台美之間後續有可能的關稅的協商過程當中怎麼來處理洗產地或是出口管制的問題這確實是在相關評估過程當中一個重要的議題"},{"start":8839.093,"end":8856.778,"text":"因為賴總統的五項談判策略其實看起來是經過深思熟慮這個有對到命題啦就是不管是你要降低彼此的貿易的deficit我們的貿易的差額貿易的赤字然後降低貿易的壁壘不管叫關稅壁壘或非關稅壁壘我們也盤點了"},{"start":8859.939,"end":8880.51,"text":"第三個就是避免中國經由台灣洗產地或偷寄宿嘛這是一個另外呢川普也希望增加投資讓美國有機會最後一個他還是需要這些關稅美國聯邦政府要調整財務結構他大概是五大目的那我們現在鄭麗君副院長帶的談判團隊在美國那媒體有報導說吳釗燮也在美國但吳釗燮談的應該是另外一件事情"},{"start":8886.263,"end":8911.848,"text":"目前4月9號台灣時間4月10號你認為台灣面對美國調高這個關稅這一波的衝擊我們有沒有辦法避免或者在短期間內有辦法和緩你們的判斷是什麼對對這部分因為我剛跟媒體有說明政府事實上已經有做一連串非常充分的一個措施來做必要的因應那一部分是在盤點可能產業受到的影響跟衝擊"},{"start":8912.708,"end":8932.951,"text":"所以總統跟服務院的團隊也跟產業界不管高科技或傳統產業也有很多的討論那也提出了我們在短期跟中長期產業未來要發展佈局的一個重要的方向那第二部分也針對未來的台美關稅的協商那也做了很多的一個沙盤的推演你們準備做的我們都知道"},{"start":8934.032,"end":8953.058,"text":"因為總統也接觸了五項策略另外對美的軍事採購軍事採購當然不會列入貿易的額度裡面但是那個對我們對自己的安全重視這件事情對談判是有好的一個前置條件我剛才問的是結果就是以目前你們掌握的狀況"},{"start":8954.198,"end":8976.552,"text":"美國這一次全球關稅現在有50多個國家要跟他們談昨天白宮還特別罕見講說台灣已經跟他們接觸了表示我們已經on the table已經在進程裡面了你們的判斷台灣在這一波的關稅裡面有沒有機會被不要說豁免被減緩或者說短時間內可以列到比較有利的地位上面"},{"start":8977.116,"end":9003.516,"text":"也不能排除這樣的一個機會啦因為就像委員提到的我們在週末期間已經跟美方有做一些溝通那也針對我方的一個立場跟提案讓美方知道那這也是為什麼美國白宮的資深官員有對外證實這件事情所以雙方的一個戰略溝通的機制是有啟動的那接下來就看他在審核過程當中那哪些國家可以列入協商的名單那協商名單裡面有沒有比較優先的名單那這部分據我的理解還在處理過程當中"},{"start":9006.158,"end":9033.549,"text":"會不會在優先的談判名單目前他們還在討論你認為樂不樂觀因為在優先的談判名單就有可能先暫緩對我們當然是爭取能夠有這樣的一個機會因為你是等於全國情報的最高首長但有些東西還在進行當中不辯講我尊重對不適合我現在我剛要問的就是說以川普的決策模式你覺得因為剩下幾個小時會不會有些國家被暫時緩和下來"},{"start":9036.125,"end":9037.099,"text":"你們的判斷有沒有可能"},{"start":9038.942,"end":9066.808,"text":"這馬上就先排囉我知道 他們目前看起來好像還沒有到那個階段他們現在重點是在篩略可以來啟動關稅協商的國家名單因為他宣布的時間這是全球嘛 臨時差的嘛所以美東時間的半夜凌晨零點零時4月9號可是他到天亮 華爾街那個鐘開始敲其實還有幾個小時啊"},{"start":9068.598,"end":9072.331,"text":"那這幾個小時以目前我還是那句話你方便說"},{"start":9073.612,"end":9098.904,"text":"因為這牽涉到我們台灣太多的中小企業這件事情影響中小企業非常的重大有一些不負責任的政治人物隨便說那跟美國開幹啊他32我們就50%我跟你講這個中小企業聽到講這種話都認為這是非常不負責任我們現在美國是我們對外出口的第一大市場在去年就開始超越中國了所以我現在要講的是以你目前的瞭解"},{"start":9100.595,"end":9128.197,"text":"川普政府有沒有可能百分比我們用李克特五點亮表有沒有可能在真正執行這個關稅前把某些國家拉出來暫緩上次加拿大跟墨西哥就快要槍斃前就從行場拖回去說緩和一個月再來有沒有可能他們現在有在討論各種的狀況啦然後也針對已經表達協商的國家有在做一些討論正在討論你覺得有沒有可能"},{"start":9129.293,"end":9135.042,"text":"極其不可能有點可能不知道或者有可能或非常可能五個點"},{"start":9136.94,"end":9164.207,"text":"正在討論 他們還在討論當中所以目前這件事情正在發展中就是表達要談判意願的五十多個國家這五十多個國家裡面大概有六七個國家表達願意雙方零關稅盧比歐向歐盟表達川普的目的是建構北美洲跟歐盟的零關稅經貿環境他要講這個話所以這件事情正在減變中所以我剛才從這邊聽到的是"},{"start":9166.127,"end":9189.484,"text":"有沒有可能某些國家在正式執行前 暫時拉下來進行協商談判這個正在談 溝通中對 他們正在討論他們現在正在討論 現在正在談當中嘛是台灣是正在談當中一國嘛當然 我們就有表達意願我剛才跟委員說明我們跟台美之間這個機制是有啟動的那美方資深官員也對外證實這個機制是啟動的OK兩個問題 主席我給你借一點時間那個"},{"start":9194.958,"end":9220.75,"text":"吳釗燮現在在美國的所謂的特殊管道的安全談判跟這個關稅有沒有關係我不適合替國安會來回答這個問題OK好我尊重因為帕帕羅印太司令部的指揮官司令他特別提到最近的中共對台軍演他認為那不是一個演習他認為是一個rehearsal是一個進攻前的預演動作"},{"start":9222.092,"end":9251.407,"text":"是一個對台進攻前的預演動作國安會怎麼看這句話我沒有辦法替國安會來回答我說國安局的部分國安局的部分他確實我剛才跟其他委員做說明他現在開始把一些例行性的演習做包裝而對台灣具有針對性他在演練的就是希望建立這種可能的遊演轉戰的相關的能量帕帕羅上將所說的最近這些軍演他是一個發動對台攻擊的rehearsal"},{"start":9252.032,"end":9280.111,"text":"各種意見我們都尊重也會列入我們的評估好 這個我不為難你最後一個問題中共最近是不是在清洗他們的軍方有一個消息出來一千三百多位包含將領我這邊有列一些名單中央軍委會副主席國防部長戰區司令員武警部隊司令員軍政高層其他軍政包含東部台灣當面的東部戰區的海軍司令"},{"start":9281.011,"end":9306.109,"text":"這裡面有上將中將被清洗的中上將少將大概可以組一個連然後所有的軍方中共解放軍被清洗的人將近一千三百多人這個消息是否為真你們有沒有掌握有我們的數據剛剛在夜報裡面也有大概在裡面有羅列出來所以這數字是真的就有一些中共的將領被清洗但董軍的部分我沒記錯好像"},{"start":9307.816,"end":9328.839,"text":"昨天還是什麼時候有公開的畫面出來就要再確認一下他消失一段時間後就出來我這個提醒就是說當然有人說一個部隊在大清洗當中這個部隊是沒有辦法有戰力的但我們不能掉以輕心但另外一說就是當大清洗發生的時候困獸遊鬥這個時候大家要特別小心從印度、越南"},{"start":9329.58,"end":9350.066,"text":"菲律賓甚至於澳洲、日本、台灣這些周邊國家都應該特別小心因為當內部在大清洗的時候製造衝突常常是解放軍解決問題的方法之一你們有評估這個事情?有,這部分國安單位、國防部我們都有全面全程的一個掌控共軍相關的狀態所以目前局勢是有沒有升高的太陽還是正常持平?"},{"start":9351.466,"end":9377.792,"text":"目前還好所以這個清洗是確實正在發生有他是中共內部黨派的鬥爭還是藉由剛剛也跟陳委員在討論他有幾個可能的原因一來是派系的問題貪腐的問題忠誠度的問題那因為有些狀況還在他們的調查當中那可能要進一步再來做一些綜合的判斷你認為習近平的位置目前他是憂慮的還是安穩的"},{"start":9379.625,"end":9395.687,"text":"我沒有辦法去揣摩習近平的心境啦但至少在軍文關係的這個後續的發展是我們關注的一個重點好 OK 謝謝局長好 謝謝委員謝謝王定宇委員上台諮詢接下來有林淑英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9408.704,"end":9421.642,"text":"謝謝主席主席因為時間比較有限所以我一次請國安局蔡局長法務部調查局陳局長軍情局鄧執行長還有法務部調查局資安處的張處長首先我先詢問"},{"start":9424.264,"end":9453.236,"text":"許問蔡局長局長剛剛其實聽到您有關於整體的國安調查的時候你有講到就是中國對於台灣的滲透喔國安局或者是相關的單位這裡沒有不敢辦只有就是看資料到哪裡我們辦到哪裡而且沒有分顏色本期聽了其實覺得非常開心因為一直以來我在國防外交委員會有非常關注的就是中國的滲透從過去我在質詢國防部的時候提到了那就是不論現役或退役金人他們因為資金的關係"},{"start":9454.156,"end":9475.971,"text":"所以有相關的這種地下會對又或者是金融陷阱導致他們不得已成為所謂的共諜或者是洩密者那這個部分今天在報告當中也特別提出來了159件當中有95人其實現役或退役金人佔了60%而且呢現在媒體也都報導出去了就是在報告當中也提到了"},{"start":9477.182,"end":9504.075,"text":"會有黑道跟暴力所謂組織犯罪地下錢莊等等來做掩護所以顯然這個問題它就如同我們賴總統所宣示的一樣就是其實中國這個敵對勢力正在方方面面的入侵那麼本席想詢問的就是除了您現在所提出來的這些樣態之外有沒有注意到另外一個問題那就是有關於來 夏業"},{"start":9505.075,"end":9526.575,"text":"學術交流是不是也成為台灣滲透的一個樣態本席曾經發布過一個臉書啦就是在國民黨發起罷免吳思瑤的這一位人士叫做張克進他其實過去我不知道他為何自稱文化人但他比較多的文化都是在對岸"},{"start":9527.517,"end":9529.3,"text":"包括中國相關的這些教育部門然後文宣部門統戰部門去頒發這個所謂這個認證給他那麼"},{"start":9538.285,"end":9564.405,"text":"他基本上他就是充滿了紅色履歷那麼他要來罷免一個被中國所認證是台獨幫手台獨推手的吳思堯我那時候就覺得說這真的很可笑所以我開始就去了解到學術單位來聘請人的時候對岸的學術單位來聘請人的時候是不是其實也充滿了紅色危機這個是本席所接收到的一個"},{"start":9565.726,"end":9573.474,"text":"算是爆料這一位稱作卓銀鏘他任職於閩南師範大學"},{"start":9575.458,"end":9599.534,"text":"那當時我就在想說這個人有什麼好來做爆料的呢為什麼他的任職有人要把這樣的一個提醒我來注意後來我去查了發現如果你要在閩南師範大學來做教授的話要被聘任的話你必須要有中國共產黨的黨籍也就是中國人民共和國的國籍那麼而且要對中國共產黨要有擁護"},{"start":9601.835,"end":9629.771,"text":"那我就想問不知道局長有沒有收到類似相關的情資這個人有在注意當中嗎因為我想要問的是他有中國籍嗎還是他是雙重國籍現在是沒有放棄台灣籍而我去了解這個人的時候我發現如果我上網Google過去他曾經在2023年有所謂拿政府標案最後不當裁員掏空的狀況那我本來想說如果他只是一個經濟犯"},{"start":9631.172,"end":9635.357,"text":"那又有什麼好注意的呢結果一查不得了從國防部的參謀本部再到國科會再到國安局再到法務部調查局他在2006年也就是馬英九執政的時期"},{"start":9646.698,"end":9662.749,"text":"他接了許多相關的標案而且當任主持人計劃人而他在2016年也就是政黨輪替之後他2017年2016年左右的時間他離開了公職相關單位所以我想詢問這樣的人他在2025年3月6號"},{"start":9670.031,"end":9697.277,"text":"然後現在到中國的閩南師範大學去這樣的人會不會是另外一個國安破口而這個國安破口是不是從學術的角度開始成為滲透另外要注意的部分先請局長回應對 這部分我們有在注意那也謝謝委員的提醒那有沒有可能透過一種學術的交流變成是一個國安在管理上要注意的一個漏洞這我們有在注意"},{"start":9698.097,"end":9708.131,"text":"好 所以說你們其實已經有在注意跟啟動相關的調查了嗎好 那麼我想要請就教一下保務部陳局長委員好局長 因為他曾經有參加過"},{"start":9716.352,"end":9737.023,"text":"法務資安整體防禦基礎建設先導案而且他還是技術顧問所以他掌握了多少資安方面的顧問為什麼我會從調查局先來問起是因為2015到2016是一個目前最近近台灣目前最近近現在2025的一個時間點"},{"start":9739.364,"end":9766.421,"text":"那麼他所了解我們的基礎建設當中到底滲入多少了解多少而他又可以帶走多少我們在資安上面的機密保護部有了解嗎報告委員您提到的這個採購案在來之前我是沒有了解到但是我回去以後我會馬上了解然後跟委員來報告好那國防部我想問一下軍情局"},{"start":9770.134,"end":9778.988,"text":"因為我們知道我們前一陣子中國有刻意的去洩露說我們所謂自動電軍相關的這些人士當時國防部的回應會是說"},{"start":9782.007,"end":9803.396,"text":"這個可能是錯誤的資料假訊息或不重要但是我就想要問了相關的這個人他是不是真的掌握有具有戰略的價值的相關的核心技術跟資密那麼他是一個退役的軍情局的人員的時候那麼相關的這裡我們軍情局現在覺得是不是應該要有什麼防範首先跟委員報告第一個就是我們退役人員因為"},{"start":9811.8,"end":9839.826,"text":"他們掌握的訊息跟我們現在執行的工作是並不會有很大的影響因為第一個就是我們所有退役人員他本身具有管制期那他管制期管制過了之後大概一到三年的時間對於我們現行工作他基本上是不會有所了解的這是第一個"},{"start":9840.782,"end":9865.882,"text":"第二個那對於我們本局的退役人員我們會有很嚴格的管制我們必須要要求他主動申報好所以你很有信心你覺得因為他已經在2017年退役現在是2025年的4月了所以他沒有辦法掌握到核心技術他沒有向下的學弟沒有向上的學長可以有訊息做中間的傳遞"},{"start":9867.323,"end":9893.759,"text":"這邊跟委員補充報告其實我們局裡面有一項我們對於我們內部的審核機制我們始終在執行那我們所有人員的交流跟我們人員的出訪或者我們對外接觸的重要人員我們會定期不定期的都有做相關的檢查跟疑測的機制最後請問一下法務部調查局的資安處的張處長"},{"start":9895.858,"end":9918.705,"text":"處長因為會找您是因為我覺得這是最直接的關聯本席擔憂的就是如果今天資安就是國安不是只是一句所謂的口頭禪或者是口號的話那麼這樣的一個人他可能只是一個單獨的個案所以我不會要求在這裡把這個個案所有追查的進度或是狀況來做"},{"start":9920.846,"end":9940.132,"text":"說明但是如果就您所了解的話那麼這個有沒有可能成為一個資安的破口而從這個點是不是要全面的來做清查跟了解他以學術交流之名受聘到中國大陸去會不會把我們相關的資安的關鍵技術帶過去呢調查局怎麼看"},{"start":9941.676,"end":9970.525,"text":"是跟委員報告謝謝委員的提醒至於這個卓先生就我了解他並沒有在我們局裡面負責相關的資訊標案那是不是他有擔任我們標案的其他的公司的顧問這個我們還需要進一步清查但是有關卓銀腔的部分其實不是只有我們資安的部分那他涉及到其他國安的部分我們局裡面都整體的有組成專案在做一個調查"},{"start":9970.765,"end":9984.817,"text":"好 最後要把時間交給蔡局長局長 其實我相信我先補充一下剛剛那個圖表上有提到好像有個國安局的資安建制案由這一位來擔任主持人沒有這個事情好 沒有這個標案嗎沒有沒有好 OK好 那麼我其實最後要請這個國安局"},{"start":9990.622,"end":10011.69,"text":"能夠持續來了解的部分就是當國安局已經注意到就是所謂的內應會透過所謂的民防透過內應在中共用武力犯台的同時的時候這個內應可能是透過所謂武裝部隊或者是相關的這個民軍民防來的時候另外一個破口可能會是我們的基礎建設或是資訊安全"},{"start":10014.051,"end":10034.758,"text":"那麼這個絕對只是一個其中的個案我沒有要您來討論個案但是從學術的滲透的角度以學術交流知名的角度而把台灣相關的重要的技術帶到中國去這個部分局長是不是也能夠把它列為一個主要的另外一個查查的另外一條線"},{"start":10035.798,"end":10052.264,"text":"這部分我們是有一些專案在處理那也謝謝委員的提醒那因為畢竟中共對台灣不管竊密攬財他有管道非常的多元所以我們就是透過專案的機制讓我們國安情報團隊大家可以來分享情資那也針對這些個案來交換一些案況的理解那有必要的話就啟動檢調單位的偵辦"},{"start":10054.205,"end":10073.208,"text":"因為主席站起來了最後我想在修法面的部分因為像現在我們都只是針對就像剛剛幾位回答的官員都提到就是比如三年的保密啊四年的保密五年的保密等等加密程度但是對於海外任職我現在要提醒視訊時代他在海外任職他不一定需要出國"},{"start":10074.189,"end":10094.665,"text":"他來跟你視訊他一樣可以上課所以在相關其他的海外任職的規定的部分也許相關的單位不論是軍情及國安局或相關的單位可能也要針對修法的部分來與時俱進好嗎好謝謝謝謝林淳於委員上台質詢接下來有楊瓊英上台委員質詢"},{"start":10103.787,"end":10123.102,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請局長國安局局長好針對川普政府宣布對外貿易與投資政策包括各國的鋼、鋁、汽車關稅到25%甚至對各國的課徵10%到50%的對等關稅"},{"start":10132.189,"end":10151.193,"text":"也盼引導整個製造業能夠回流到美國關稅政策一出引發了國人的恐慌尤其是我們產業界非常非常的憂心在川普政策出爐前政府要人民安心強調風險可控政府有準備沒想到美國政府最後對我們課稅是高達32%的關稅"},{"start":10157.935,"end":10186.786,"text":"那政府是不是在事前已經有掌控到相關的資訊那我們國安團隊的判斷到底是什麼所以首先來請教國安會議的結論最後是不是誠如柯總召所說的是這個關稅是10%請教沒有這部分應該行政院已經有對外說明當時在評估可能美國對等關稅的稅增的那個會多大"},{"start":10188.13,"end":10206.577,"text":"範圍會多大那當時是有抓一個蠻大的幅度那最大的幅度應該是比現在的32%還要大剛剛在這個經濟委員會呢部長跟劉主委國防會都說當時的這個準備是10%到35%是不是如此"},{"start":10207.705,"end":10228.764,"text":"對 我尊重行政院相關部會的對外說明你對外說明就是同意所以我們不希望說民眾聽到的訊息是差別這麼大因為柯總召是鐵口直斷的說放心啦 就是只有10%可是隔天出來的答案是如此讓人民真的恐慌我們也不希望"},{"start":10229.464,"end":10246.184,"text":"讓人民這麼恐慌不可以所以政府必須要有所應對那所以在這個對等的關稅的議題之前台積電對美的投資那麼已經引起了不少的討論也有人憂心也就是說"},{"start":10247.225,"end":10271.76,"text":"不少人質疑說台積電變美積電那也有人憂心說赴美之後的投資會削弱了台灣晶片的一個優勢那麼台積電的半導體它的角色地位我們的描述是沉入台灣的細鈍但是我們也看到美方說了他說未來有4成的晶片在美生產換句話說更有人說這會陷入了我們"},{"start":10275.862,"end":10297.453,"text":"一個安全的困境那也就是說美國得到了這個台積電的一個投資確保了美國供應鏈的一個安全但是我們台灣的資產安全反而是讓我們會不穩定所以在這種情況之下請教局長台積電對美投資的增加對我國安有什麼影響請教"},{"start":10298.553,"end":10325.038,"text":"我想第一部分先說明一下因為台積電畢竟是一家民營的企業它的海外的佈局投資我想我們國安單位不適合做評論好或不好但是從國際情報的角度我可以跟委員分享報告的是就國際的所謂半導體的產業來講它是一個蠻大的全球的生態系所以我相信我們的廠商在做相關的投資佈局一定都會有它的一個評估跟考量"},{"start":10325.538,"end":10344.807,"text":"那相關的投資對於他的企業是不是在擴展市場上或是在供應的安全上或是更多的訂單的爭取上他一定會有一些評估那這部分我想注重但是在我們的盾牌如果削弱了這個盾牌當然人民會有所疑慮所以在我們整個國安的方面我們的影響"},{"start":10345.707,"end":10362.937,"text":"不過也跟委員說明一下因為我們國內的那個半導體的產業的供應鏈生態系非常的完整那有非常優秀的勞動力那也有非常先進的技術它要在短期被取代的可能性沒有那麼高所以換句話說我們還是有所"},{"start":10367.441,"end":10376.032,"text":"看到這個問題我們要好好的去應對滾動式的一個檢討接下來本席要請教國安局您自個兒的統計報告2020年到現在共諜案的起訴"},{"start":10381.238,"end":10395.148,"text":"有159人那其中現役跟退役的有95人他的占比是60%那上週更傳出有總統府的資議立法院的國會的助理涉這個共諜案"},{"start":10397.41,"end":10412.379,"text":"這一些的事件讓國人就非常非常的不安那麼顯示中共試圖對於我們整個軍事單位以及政府的機關它是進行滲透企圖取得了機密的一個"},{"start":10414.011,"end":10429.712,"text":"這個資訊所以在這樣的情況之下局長面對這樣子的威脅增加那我方如何應應呢你要怎麼樣去加強這個查核來確保我們國家的這個機敏性的資訊能夠得到安全請做說明"},{"start":10430.813,"end":10448.921,"text":"就這部分我想會做這些共諜案的揭露主要是讓我們的社會大眾更可以知道中共對台灣進行滲透的一些手法跟樣態那我們這樣子才能夠強化我們的社會韌性來防範中共對台灣有更多的這些在地協力者網絡的建構這是第一點跟委員說明"},{"start":10449.861,"end":10478.73,"text":"那第二部分是就共諜案來講我們國安情報單位來講我們會分享相關的一個情資情訊那假如有比較明確的一個違法的事證的話我們就會請司法單位來進行偵辦那所以怎麼樣來嚴查嚴辦也是我們在處理共諜案主要的一個處理的因應的方式那第三個部分就是在法治的部分想要能夠來嚴懲共諜案達到嚇阻效果的話我們也必須要來檢視我們的相關的法令規定有沒有不足的地方"},{"start":10479.19,"end":10507.142,"text":"那總統在3月13號召開國安高層會議也有特別提醒要求我們行政部門要針對法律的適用有沒有哪些可以在更精進的地方來做一些檢討那這部分我們國安局跟法務部有在討論除了法律面的檢討但是現在的機關已經到總統府到國會裡頭來這個是非同小可所以我也敬請這個國安局這邊你們的政策方向應對要如何去精進"},{"start":10508.102,"end":10536.436,"text":"這個是很重要的這部分也跟剛剛幾位委員先進在討論也就是政府各機關不管行政部門或是立法院這邊對於一些人員的禁用怎麼樣來建立起一個安查的機制那認為人員的核密階密的等級怎麼樣有一個規範那同時在文書文件的核密也應該要有一套制度那這部分我們在國安單位事實上已經行之有年那假如說立法院也有類似的一個規劃的話我們很樂意來提供相關的意見給大院來做參考"},{"start":10537.577,"end":10557.884,"text":"所以這個除了參考之外我想國家是議題的尤其到了總統府跟這個國會那更要嚴肅的來看待這個議題方案要怎麼做讓我們的國家能夠安全這是非常重要的謝謝謝謝楊全英委員上台質詢接下來由沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":10570.439,"end":10576.361,"text":"謝謝主席那有請這個有請局長然後還有請這個海選署署長謝謝好 謝謝主席 沈委員好謝謝今天移民署有啦 順便問一下移民署移民署署長謝謝"},{"start":10594.127,"end":10618.381,"text":"好 謝謝那這個我想先問一下移民署因為剛好我剛好才看到了因為昨天在協調這個案件那我還是想問一下就是說因為陸委會今天有在另外一邊也有在做這個相關的說明那現在因為這個2004年的這個修法它當時有這一個六個月的這樣的一個規定那因為現在呢畢竟就是說已經過了一段時間"},{"start":10619.341,"end":10642.628,"text":"除了陸委會配套修法之外,現在在法治上有沒有什麼要特別跟民眾說明這件事情?首先說明一下,我們兩岸人民的戶籍,我們是單一戶籍製造,就是說在台灣地區,我們在台灣設有戶籍的國民不得在大陸地區來設有戶籍或領用護照,"},{"start":10643.348,"end":10659.646,"text":"那麼這個案子是在兩岸條例是在93年的時候有做一個修正那當時就是修正就是說在93年以前的這個大陸地區人民必須在六個月內來當時一個溯起的規定"},{"start":10663.57,"end":10677.666,"text":"那這個我們這一次呢這個其實有關這個涉及的這些規定一直以來都是持續在執行移民署在96年以後才成立"},{"start":10679.768,"end":10692.826,"text":"我們在去年十月是在清理就是說我們在清查的是疫情期間那麼延宕下來有些那麼一直我們都是寬延讓因為兩岸這個當時疫情期間那麼邊境"},{"start":10697.892,"end":10718.928,"text":"這個管制的關係所以沒有回去哪的某一職員那也是經過兩年的這個時間我們認為說應該也足夠了那交通也是恢復了很多那所以在去年10月開始就是從疫情期間我們開始來清查93年以前的我就想問說93年以前這個因為畢竟當時是六個月這樣的一個規定"},{"start":10721.79,"end":10742.149,"text":"那其實那個時間已經過了所以這一次我們還是有考量到說即便是時間已經過了但是已經對於我們這個人民的這個身份的一個認定還是非常的關係重要所以我們這一次是通知說要補繳"},{"start":10743.87,"end":10766.467,"text":"所以也是給予一個三個月的一個時間因為畢竟對他們來講這個取得畢竟時間上都有點困難我知道陸委會有在想說有沒有一些配套的措施是這個部分我們也跟陸委會有在開會議就是說原則上我們通知補繳這個是法律的一個規定那如果我們這些"},{"start":10769.069,"end":10796.141,"text":"對象他在實際上實質上他有面臨到什麼樣的一個困難我們也願意來說起他們的意見那這個可能要盡快因為這個人數我看也不少所以可能這個要其實大部分的我們目前我們在台的這個兩岸婚姻的這個路易配偶是有36萬人那其中已經有涉及的是14萬人"},{"start":10797.361,"end":10816.626,"text":"那我們現在清查出來的大概有1萬出頭的是沒有講好那這個就盡快啦因為我昨天有協調昨天協調之後有時候要配套方案因為我覺得這個畢竟也是涉及到第一個他如果回去有一些人是有危險的是這些我們會做考慮跟委員報告那這個署長在那我們在之後的時候等陸委會這邊的結論出來之後讓我再來問"},{"start":10818.786,"end":10847.31,"text":"是是是好 謝謝你的說明好 謝謝我那我問一下這個局長那局長因為這個最近剛好有這一個軍演那所以軍演這邊呢其實少不了一些輿論上的一些操作那我現在當然比較好奇的事情就是說我知道今天大家都比較關心共諜我現在大概都已經問完了我現在比較關心的反而是這一件就是說第一個他們的文宣攻勢當然還是很多這個網路攻擊在這次的夜報其實有特別提到那因為他們這一次也有做出相關的影片"},{"start":10847.91,"end":10860.553,"text":"那這個影片裡面所用的一些用語其實我覺得跟之前也有也不太相同啦那關於這一件事情不管是他們對我們的軍人的心戰還是輿論戰這一次軍演的部分有沒有什麼在之前有做了什麼應對"},{"start":10862.041,"end":10879.832,"text":"對 這一次的演習跟歷來的演習一樣一定都會配合到一些所謂的輿論戰還有正義訊息的一個操作來加大可能對台灣的文攻武嚇的一個總體的一個成效那就在宣傳的部分可以看到他一些官宣的影音動畫"},{"start":10880.752,"end":10908.195,"text":"似乎這一次的推波的力度比過去來的更大那但就演習本身來講我們有注意到比較像是把例行的演習來做一個拼湊那讓例行的演習變成是一種有針對性對台灣的一個針對性的演習那這也是一個比較新的發展趨勢也就是說在軍事上有這樣的一個新的發展動態那在文宣的操作上影音的操作還有圖卡的操作似乎又是這一次演習一個蠻重要的一個心理戰的重點"},{"start":10909.116,"end":10929.604,"text":"對,因為我這次看軍事,它相關的一些補給啊什麼等等之類,看起來沒有很多啦它就是為期,就不會太長的一個演戲但是因為它裡面呢,有特別強調這個所謂的台獨份子啦但它以前也會強調沒有錯那在這一次呢,在這個軍演之前呢,看起來他們相關的一些粉專啊什麼等等之類的台灣的一些在地協力者啊"},{"start":10929.964,"end":10951.335,"text":"都已經特別的再度強調到底誰才是台獨份子嘛誰才應該被懲戒嘛然後又特別在軍演的時候呢用了這些政治性的語言說這個意思又是台獨份子又是死路一條啦那我覺得在今年因為他們在之前法律戰除了2758號決議之外我覺得他們在今年蠻重要的一點就是再度要把這一個框架"},{"start":10951.835,"end":10974.794,"text":"要說台灣內部才是有真正的敵人就是台獨份子才是造成這一個戰亂的根源看起來他們好像持續要操作這件事情那這件事情我覺得就是說以現在就是我剛剛這個在後面我先來台訊我晚點再問就是說我看到有一些公開資料的一些運用譬如說ISP他們最近都會有一些公開資料的一些透明化"},{"start":10975.254,"end":10990.253,"text":"那像我這次看到夜報裡面其實就有一張很不錯的關於網攻的這個圖那于晴其實應該也于晴之前在國安局本來就會固定的一直公佈嘛有時候在夜報有時候是國安局自己這個在媒體上面就直接受訪的時候就會講出來那因為現在"},{"start":10991.094,"end":11016.554,"text":"國外在應對這些輿論戰的時候都有做一些圖像化這個圖像化其實不一定要叫國安局做他可能是外圍的智庫做但國安局這個資料越多越透明他們越能做做了之後就會有一種地圖然後會有時間序列發生了什麼事情他們又操作了什麼輿論其實因為人民在軍演的時候才注意到這個題目的時候要他跟他之前的事件連結沒有那麼容易所以希望國安局能夠再適度地釋出更多的相關的資料"},{"start":11017.074,"end":11039.471,"text":"那這樣可以讓大家對於軍演這件事情有更多的研判那因為時間的關係我再問一下海巡不好意思就是說我看到海巡這一次的這一個你好你好 這個因為我看到這個管主委他有提到就是說這一次的又有很多的一些不管是偷渡啊等等之類清廷啊等等的騷擾那這邊呢其實在每一次的聯合立見我們都可以看到相關的這個騷擾情形這邊有一個圖表"},{"start":11042.173,"end":11070.957,"text":"那這個呢也關係到就是之前我在質詢的時候有問過就是說這一次因為有拍到一些影像那這個是我們在去年質詢的時候呢就在內政委員會的時候就一直特別強調有影像其實能夠讓國人更認識這件事情那看起來這件事情持續有在進步所以我現在反而想我問兩件事情因為時間的關係第一個就是因為之前我知道他們都在講什麼密錄器那其實密錄器根本錄不遠嘛像這一次呢是因為距離很近所以才錄到這些相關的衝突"},{"start":11071.357,"end":11095.402,"text":"所以我想問一下關於尤其是在衝突的時候不管是從無人機的拍攝的角度還是說從我們自己的船隻的拍攝的角度因為中國現在開始會操作說這些都是台灣的船艦的問題一些民用船隻的問題我們現在在這邊相關的配置這些不管是監視攝影機等等之類不管是預算還是配置的這個速度現在如何這是第一個"},{"start":11096.322,"end":11119.596,"text":"第二個就是我們看到下一個就是關於這個AIS我看到這一次其實在這個海底電纜的時候都有特別提到那我上次有提醒過就是說在海外有做了很多這種譬如說不同的船隻誰的AIS先有誰的又沒有他是不是一組等等之類的他可以做一些AI的研判那海巡那時候說其實我們也是可以自己做"},{"start":11120.436,"end":11136.231,"text":"那現在相關的這些不管是在預算上或者在技術上現在有沒有辦法做到這些事情就這兩個問題就好 謝謝這邊跟委員報告這樣有關那個金門事件以後我們所有的監視錄影器包括艦船艇上面我們現在都已經做完備了"},{"start":11137.232,"end":11157.406,"text":"特別跟委員報告我們在應對中國的不管是軍演不管是在金門或者是馬魯地區我們的船艦距離大陸的船艦都非常近我們最近曾經到達將近不大100公尺也就是貼著他們在拍所以我們拍出來效果是非常好的也展現給國人這部分也非常有震撼力這邊特別跟委員報告"},{"start":11158.086,"end":11184.645,"text":"那另外有關航行在我們周邊的權益輪部分我們根據航港局提供的這個權益部分我們完全可以掌握在台灣周邊航行的相關權益輪那我們現在掌握的有96艘的中資備檢權益輪那只要它一接近我們的這個臨海跟臨街區我們就會做監控然後請航港局以船騎國的管理方式先廣播那廣播不聽了我們會被船艦去登檢"},{"start":11185.445,"end":11199.902,"text":"那這個部分我們這個部分對於海面的目標我們是完全可以掌握的這邊特別跟我們報告好那現在就我最後一句就好了因為時間已經到了就是說因為畢竟現在我們有資料庫那有資料庫知道有哪些船隻剛剛講有九十幾艘嘛"},{"start":11200.242,"end":11226.596,"text":"那這個跟AI判斷又是另外一件事AI判斷的意思是說呢其實我們現在有資料庫這些資料庫的傳資跟別的傳資的互動比如說它的AIS這個關了這個馬上開它會不會是一組的就是說有這些判斷之後呢這個資料庫還有擴充的空間我指的是這件事情那因為時間的關係呢我就之後再繼續追蹤這件事謝謝主席謝謝局長跟兩位署長好 謝謝委員謝謝沈博洋召委上台的諮詢接下來由李坤成委員上台諮詢"},{"start":11236.204,"end":11261.985,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請國安局蔡局長不好意思 要不要先 局長先喝口水再上來 沒關係好 謝謝李委員局長好 這個本席請教一下在今年的4月1號 這個中國有一個聯合演訓但是它並沒有公布代號那當然有人說那是不是漁人節的關係 所以它沒有公布代號"},{"start":11263.07,"end":11281.906,"text":"但是他在4月2號他就有一個海峽雷霆2025A的一個演習請教一下局長就是說這個4月1號的沒有公佈代號您知道說他的用意在哪裡嗎有人是解讀說是不是他的演習軍演已經常態化了所以也不用代號了"},{"start":11283.558,"end":11310.478,"text":"基本上我們剛剛也跟其他委員在說明了覺得這次的演習比較像是把一些例行性的演習來做一個整合也是指4月1號還是4月2號這次演習整合看起來是這樣因為一般來講假如是一個規劃比較完整的演習的話可能在演習的第一個時間點就有一個演習代號出來但這一次在第一天並沒有但它已經達到了演習的規模但到了第二天才又來了一個演習的代號來延續第一天的演習"},{"start":11311.138,"end":11329.782,"text":"那這樣的做法在以前比較少看到所以局長你是認為說他這次的演習是比較衝突的我是有這個意思那為什麼會衝突來舉辦這個演習他的用意在哪裡因為在時間點上我剛才跟其他委員在報告因為時間點事實上離3月13號賴總統的國安高層會議已經隔了有兩三個禮拜的時間"},{"start":11335.003,"end":11364.015,"text":"那那個時間點有比較特殊的是美國國防部有所謂的在印太的戰略佈局會有比較壓制中共維護區域現狀的這些規劃那可能讓中共覺得他必須要有一些反制的動作那再加上當時是因為美國的國防部部長那個Hexes他剛好在關島日本跟菲律賓做訪問所以幾乎就在美國防長離開日本之後這個演習就啟動了所以我們感覺上演習的規劃上似乎沒有過去那麼的"},{"start":11365.495,"end":11391.7,"text":"所以那如果這樣子的話他的演習是演給台灣看還是演給美國看?我想他的演習不只是演給外界看也在演給內部看因為時間上也包括到他內部正在整肅東部戰區的相關的重要的將領那透過這種演習對內還是有一些功能在政治的功能一方面讓軍心可以比較集中在演訓而不要去在乎這些政治動盪或政治清洗整肅的議題"},{"start":11392.72,"end":11410.689,"text":"另一方面也可以讓外界知道說中國即使內部在進行政治的整肅軍隊在進行清洗但是它還是有能力來組織這種有相當規模的軍事演習所以在考量的面向非常的多所以是國安局對於這個4月1號跟4月2號的演習的整個概括的評估就對了對"},{"start":11413.011,"end":11433.953,"text":"我問一下你們報告的第一頁其實寫的說現在川普政府的政策就是美國優先然後以集中資源對中國的威脅那我請教一下像這次川普的關稅戰是不是也是屬於集中資源對中國威脅的一個策略方法"},{"start":11434.654,"end":11460.003,"text":"因為在看他的相關的政策規劃背後的一些思維來講那我不知道委員有沒有注意到在歐洲地區那大概美國現在是希望歐洲盟友能夠更負擔起歐洲安全的責任但在中東地區可能也是希望盡快的穩定當地的局面那以便更多的資源可以投注到印太地區來而且假如委員注意到美國的相關的國防資源的配置印太地區也"},{"start":11460.883,"end":11481.886,"text":"會是未來的一個關注的重點所以用這樣子的方式來理解跟推論的話可以理解到可能美國對於中共在安全或戰略面對美國構成的挑戰他們非常的重視而做一些比較全盤的規劃美國現在最常用的一個字叫Pacing Challenge就是一個中共是一個不斷迫近的一個挑戰跟威脅"},{"start":11483.207,"end":11496.202,"text":"所以關稅戰是不是也要...關稅的部分也是我想美國現在加總對中國的關稅已經超過100%以上了等一下12點就是正式生效了加起來有超過104%"},{"start":11497.904,"end":11518.417,"text":"我剛要跟委員報告的是不管從安全戰略面或是從經貿面因為美國除了有關稅以外另外還有小院高牆的意思就是針對高科技的管制出口以及避免中國大陸產品的洗產地相關的一個規劃所以整體解讀起來會覺得對中有相當程度的針對性"},{"start":11519.318,"end":11538.04,"text":"那接下來會不會繼續影響到這個中國的經濟因為我看你們的報告上面有寫到說中國內部的這個經濟社會形勢是嚴峻的這個經濟成長率有可能會下調那當然經過關稅戰之後有可能再往下再調那也就是說他的這個經濟持續不正那甚至年輕人的這個失業率"},{"start":11538.621,"end":11555.242,"text":"一樣是非常高那有沒有一種可能性就是說中國因為受到這個關稅戰的挑戰然後經濟受到影響那內部的這一個不管是民族主義或是軍事力量要抬頭會把這個焦點由內轉外又對台灣造成影響"},{"start":11556.096,"end":11576.502,"text":"對 不能排除任何的可能性那委員剛剛講到經濟的問題確實也是我們在關注的重點因為剛剛我們在夜報裡面有提到國際的各方面的金融機構對於中共的整體的經濟成長率估算大概今年只有4%到4.6%比中共官方想要預期達到5%"},{"start":11577.222,"end":11595.321,"text":"這真的是在關稅戰之前做出來的那現在假如是關稅戰再加租上來的話也有國際的機構在評估假如美國的關稅對中國有到六成的話那中共的GDP受到影響可能會有2%到3%之多那更何況現在的關稅已經加高到那會不會把這個壓力由內轉外"},{"start":11597.623,"end":11623.112,"text":"就是說不能排除任何的可能性對當然有兩種可能一種可能是因為經濟不好他必須要聚焦在國內的經濟問題那不要再節外生枝但是另外一種可能性就在於說也有可能利用這個機會來轉移內部的壓力透過一些外部的一個情勢的升高的操作那這部分我們會嚴密的來注意因為退論歸退論最重要的還是回到我們國安或國防部對於中共相關軍事動態"},{"start":11624.512,"end":11652.592,"text":"的聯合情監偵的能量能夠把它發揮那一有任何動態我們就可以預警的話就可以避免到剛剛委員所擔心發生的一個狀況好 我最後一個問題請教一下這一個 那等一下請這個移民署署長是不是一起上來就是說現在有有這個有三個中配這個被強制出境了嘛包含這個什麼雅雅 小薇 恩綺他們現在已經回到中國了那對於他們回到中國的這個狀態你們有沒有掌握到"},{"start":11654.794,"end":11672.153,"text":"我們也是從就是公開的語情裡面來掌握所以跟我看得到是一樣的就是說那但是也有眾說紛紜有的說他馬上就被接走了安置得很好啊那個也是公開的語情所以你們沒有掌握到就對了沒有掌握到那在局長這邊有掌握到訊息嗎我們後續再繼續來注意"},{"start":11677.154,"end":11686.367,"text":"好那我再問一下移民署署長那現在還有沒有這一種有居留權的中配因為違反這個武統言論那還在處理當中的"},{"start":11688.406,"end":11713.553,"text":"目前我們現階段掌握的應該是到目前是這三個案子就拘留犬的案子那具有台灣身份證的咧那後續應該是還有一些案子還有一些案子再處理就對了只是因為他們具有台灣的身份證比較複雜是是好那我了解了好謝謝謝謝李坤誠委員上台質詢接下來有鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":11715.242,"end":11732.144,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員那接下來有王宏威委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席我請我們蔡局長"},{"start":11739.088,"end":11751.321,"text":"好 辛苦了局長請教一下其實現在我們重中之重就是針對美國的關稅戰特別是雖然這是全球的問題但是因為終究對台灣來講我們是一個外銷"},{"start":11754.965,"end":11770.653,"text":"為主要的導向的一個國家而且呢說實在我們真的也經不起這樣的一個這麼高的關稅所以我今天有注意到早上這個我們局長也有特別提到就說我們現在確實已經會派"},{"start":11773.474,"end":11792.484,"text":"這個特使團然後去跟美方做交涉但是我們知道按照我們過去的經驗其實經濟部在今年初就有派過一個代表團但是非常可惜我想局長也很清楚其實我們並沒有見到什麼主要的key man所以我想請問一下"},{"start":11794.215,"end":11819.742,"text":"局長我們這一次的對美的交涉例如說我們過去比如說在APEC像張忠謀先生歷次都擔任我們這個總統的特使去參加國際性的會議所以他跟外國很多的領袖都是好朋友更不要說台積電在川普總統裡面也認為是一個信譽及卓著非常良好的公司"},{"start":11820.422,"end":11843.036,"text":"所以今天我們有提到就是我們的副總召有提到建議是不是能夠敦請張忠謀先生在這一次台灣這樣的一個危機中可不可以來擔任我們的一個特使去跟對美交涉所以我不曉得局長你對這樣的看法你覺得如何"},{"start":11843.713,"end":11855.863,"text":"尊重委員的一些意見那也可以理解委員背後的問題意識當然是擔心說台灣在這一波的關稅的衝擊之下對我們的產業會產生一些影響那所以委員的這些建議我們尊重"},{"start":11856.648,"end":11874.873,"text":"因為我們現在知道有好幾十個國家將近百個國家都在排隊跟美國想要交涉但是我想我們如果今天是派出張忠謀先生至少我想我們可以應該可以排的順序應該比較前面一點所以局長你同不同意我的"},{"start":11875.493,"end":11897.685,"text":"尊重委員的分析好那局長另外一個很重要的事情你們的報告也說有關於這個共諜案那麼最近大家高度的關心那麼過去五年起訴的159人裡面有六成都是現金人或者是退役的軍人但是最近我們出現就是發現"},{"start":11898.866,"end":11921.912,"text":"在不管是在立法院裡面立法院委員的助理或者是總統府的資議或者是議員的助理或者是像民進黨民主學院裡面的他們的主任前副主任相繼的發生就是涉入共諜案這個當然也引起社會很大的震撼那麼"},{"start":11924.093,"end":11943.906,"text":"局長我想請問一下就你所了解現在有關於相關的共諜案涉嫌他滲入在執政黨或者是在立法院執政黨的立委或者議員或者是相關機構裡面這樣的案情到底嚴不嚴重"},{"start":11945.647,"end":11963.096,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為早上我也跟媒體朋友在報告共諜案它因為涉及到背叛國家傷害國家利益所以就我們國安情報機關來講只要有相關的線索的話我們一定會全力的來查查全力的來偵辦那也不會分任何的黨派也不管它是什麼樣的職務"},{"start":11963.916,"end":11992.83,"text":"所以只要有這樣的個案的話我們就依照相關的事證來收集情訊那有必要就來提供給檢調單位來做偵辦局長這個事件為什麼也引起高度的關注譬如說你當過前立法院院長的助理因為你所接觸的資料當然又不一樣那個等級證都不一樣還有這個當然我覺得這不是黨派之爭而是作為執政黨的民意代表的助理"},{"start":11993.49,"end":12020.206,"text":"也陸陸續續的涉入所以我才想請問局長這個事件現在我們所了解的大概有四個人當然我也注意到民進黨相繼的開除了他們的黨籍那這個案件有沒有擴大的可能或跡象就個案來講希望能夠得到委員的理解因為個案我比較不適合去談它的案情或案況因為檢方已經在立案偵辦"},{"start":12021.328,"end":12045.143,"text":"那我請問局長 這裡面其中有一位 叫做盛楚英那麼他竟然是20萬元交保 就像您所說的 涉入共諜案他可能已經涉及交付國家的機密 或者一些機密文件20萬可以交保 這是辦共諜案的"},{"start":12045.723,"end":12066.47,"text":"一個標準嗎而且他立刻去關閉他所有的社交平台那這個其實大家外界就會認為他立刻是不是有這種滅政的可能所以如果辦共諜案20萬交保這個水準從國安局的角度來看會不會增加到時候辦案的一個困難度"},{"start":12067.33,"end":12092.577,"text":"我們比較不適合去評論審理機關就是法院他對於要不要交保以及交保金額額度的一個裁判那我們尊重法院的一個相關的裁決沒有局長我知道你不願意對個案去做說明但是我要講的就是這個案子到目前為止因為他牽涉了他不是只有一位他就牽涉了好幾位那我們不曉得是不是一個集體辦案的行為"},{"start":12093.397,"end":12122.568,"text":"但是裡面其中有一位而且是20萬交保我今天要特別講的如果除非他只是他並不是共諜案但是如果真的已經被涉及到共諜案然後20萬元就交保然後又可以准許他可以快速的關閉他所有的這些相關的平台我覺得這個是未來整個的辦案可能這次要國安局也要跟檢調單位去做一些溝通的"},{"start":12123.291,"end":12148.542,"text":"你同不同意對大概理解委員提到這樣的一個樣態要注意的地方那這我們再來加強注意但我必須跟委員說明的是共諜案是媒體的用語那每個案情案況可能都不太一樣那這可能會影響到剛剛委員所知好我最後對不起最後請教一下今天早上徐巧欣委員有特別提到我但是你覺得說巧欣委員的資訊是"},{"start":12149.702,"end":12159.966,"text":"他那個資訊是不是正確的所以我是很善意的提醒所以你是否認嗎 你是否認嗎就是國安局裡面的不是 他那個 我跟委員說明一下就是當時的質詢的內容的"},{"start":12162.921,"end":12188.954,"text":"是不是正確的內容那我很怕他做這樣的指控會有一些不必要的問題我指的是法律問題所以我是適度的在提醒你的內容是不太正確的如果國安局裡面也出現有人涉嫌供點案我覺得是非同小可所以恐怕也許您的用字要更為精準一些然後我老實講我會認為該承認就要承認該澄清就要澄清"},{"start":12189.654,"end":12215.007,"text":"因為我覺得現在真的已經營造一個匪諜就在你身邊尤其我們自己在立法院裡面我們自己也非常小心啊對不對應該的所以這一部分我覺得他能夠應該該澄清該承認我覺得不要讓民眾有任何的覺得這個訊息是有模糊的空間好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝王國威委員的上台資訊接下來有林義軍委員上台訊"},{"start":12218.359,"end":12224.483,"text":"抱歉 蘇清前委員蘇清前委員蘇清前委員不在葉延之委員葉延之委員葉延之委員不在那鄭振全委員鄭振全委員鄭振全委員不在接下來由林一軍委員上台資訊"},{"start":12259.172,"end":12262.713,"text":"謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席 林委員好首先先請教局長最近吵的沸沸揚揚的共諜案的問題國安局在這一次的業務報告的書面資料的第八頁裡面有提到近兩年起訴的共諜案"},{"start":12285.987,"end":12302.008,"text":"案件數量大幅的提升那先請教局長案件數量大幅的提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有相對的提升呢"},{"start":12302.869,"end":12330.648,"text":"應該都有 一方面是中共的滲透的力度不斷的在強化鋪天蓋地的在對台灣進行相關的滲透跟共諜的部署那第二部分是當然我們國安情報機關也歷年來也累積了一些經驗那怎麼樣來在國安情報機關軍中保防單位檢查單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切這是第二部分那第三部分也跟其他委員有在報告的是也涉及到國人或我們軍中官兵弟兄"},{"start":12332.469,"end":12361.999,"text":"越強化那也透過檢舉的方式讓我們有更多的訓員來針對這些相關的共諜案可以啟動我們的查查的動作好那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了"},{"start":12362.399,"end":12381.587,"text":"但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污治罪條例來起訴是嗎"},{"start":12386.026,"end":12407.601,"text":"對 就每個供應典案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣"},{"start":12408.121,"end":12423.226,"text":"好 那我們看一下螢幕 北溪就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的 那我想請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎"},{"start":12428.528,"end":12450.903,"text":"對 剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此"},{"start":12451.423,"end":12468.584,"text":"那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的那個刑責大概都平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右"},{"start":12470.126,"end":12489.068,"text":"這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果"},{"start":12489.488,"end":12512.083,"text":"避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年"},{"start":12517.146,"end":12534.497,"text":"所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢"},{"start":12536.297,"end":12562.287,"text":"對 這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個 並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間"},{"start":12563.988,"end":12580.666,"text":"那如果文職人員涉及洩密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低洩密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的洩密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢"},{"start":12581.747,"end":12596.101,"text":"對 我想我們不只是文職啦 軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外"},{"start":12597.202,"end":12613.142,"text":"本局的人員的相關的揭秘的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關和密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流"},{"start":12614.804,"end":12642.724,"text":"那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們"},{"start":12644.648,"end":12650.79,"text":"謝謝林議員上台發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好這次下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是聯動的那請問局長"},{"start":12672.637,"end":12685.424,"text":"那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那裡面的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好"},{"start":12696.97,"end":12713.616,"text":"所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢"},{"start":12714.436,"end":12735.654,"text":"對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了"},{"start":12737.475,"end":12763.763,"text":"不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑釁的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位"},{"start":12764.563,"end":12777.692,"text":"能夠有聯合情堅真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好 那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢"},{"start":12780.234,"end":12808.206,"text":"是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢"},{"start":12809.248,"end":12831.645,"text":"就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力"},{"start":12832.245,"end":12858.257,"text":"威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識"},{"start":12858.957,"end":12883.926,"text":"才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那委員只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的"},{"start":12884.363,"end":12893.608,"text":"好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚"},{"start":12913.658,"end":12931.383,"text":"所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好 我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林議卿委員上台質詢"},{"start":12936.345,"end":12955.432,"text":"已登記執行委員除不在場外均於發言完畢報告及詢答的結束那委員口頭執行為其答覆部分或要求補充的資料者請相關單位以書面以兩週內答覆委員另約定"},{"start":12957.573,"end":12969.065,"text":"這個期限者從其所定以上如有涉及機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"160027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcee3dcbc29c1ba50a7b899a01abdeb363303873e74607c39c257ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:25:06 - 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"end":97.805,"text":"那我想要請教一下部長在目前來講我們在交通運輸上如果有遇到這種重大的地震那目前的防災演練每年的次數大概是多少那規模跟方案大概是如何其實在交通體系上面來說的話遇到地震影響比較大會是軌道"},{"start":99.305,"end":117.641,"text":"會是軌道因為軌道的精準度要高那我們目前也有設定一個一定的這個地震的值當他到達那個值像台鐵也是一樣我們會有巡軌的動作五級嘛台鐵是五級那高鐵也有一定的水準巡軌的動作那巡軌完之後怎麼樣讓他慢慢加速的運行"},{"start":118.201,"end":142.65,"text":"這個部分其實我們都有一定的機制那最近這幾年最近這幾個月其實遇到蠻多的颱風那個地震那我們也都是照這個SOP在走平常時的演練其實因為台灣時常在地震不用演練也時常在做實際的SOP的操作因為居安思危啊那因為我知道目前來講的話是在這個國家防災日的時候配合地震停車跟疏散旅客"},{"start":143.571,"end":168.873,"text":"來進行這個地震避難的演練但是我在之前我們有去日本做一個學術交流在防災的包括他們演練的部分其實他們的次數是非常多的那我是想說來就教一下像未來像目前來講這個地震比較頻繁甚至有可能有大型地震的這種可能性因為中央氣象署有警告過了嘛也有提示過了所以說那有沒有可能會增加這個"},{"start":170.034,"end":199.274,"text":"這個就關於地震的這種演練跟次數跟規模我們目前市區在一年都各有一次啦一年一次其實就是這個國家防災日的時候相對會比較少委員在提醒其實沒有錯確實最近地震的頻繁度以我自身的感受頻繁度似乎是有變高了一些那這方面的演練或許我們可以再加強我們會拜託包含台鐵拜託高鐵都做這方面的這個演練"},{"start":200.094,"end":218.36,"text":"好那再來的話就是地震時的時候如果那種大型地震它被通報的話那其實是等中央氣象署的這個通報嗎還是說在台鐵或是在部長這邊有辦法收到第一時間的這種大型的如果發生大地震的這種通報以及說災害的狀況"},{"start":219.48,"end":246.173,"text":"因為目前來講的監測機制那台鐵的這些鐵軌的監測機制他就是現有的他不是平常的那種狀況他們其實都有感測器他各個編電系統都有感測器那各地的這個地震的狀況他們也都有感測器那另外一方面當然氣象署像剛剛的地震在震之前氣象署的訊息都已經先進來了所以這個部分其實訊息在現在這個時代已經非常的快好"},{"start":246.693,"end":271.61,"text":"那因為時間有限那我還是本席在這裡建議就是增加這個防災的演練的次數及規模好不好那再來就是說當然在賴清德總統的時候講這個談話之後啊這台海危機是逐漸升溫那如果假如在戰爭時期的話那在相關的台鐵的疏散或是做這個暫時輸運轉運的部分有沒有任何的一個配套方案"},{"start":272.695,"end":286.601,"text":"報告委員其實我們有配合內政部這個全社會任性的這個演練我們各個單位都有做不一樣的演練那所有交通體系的所有的單位都有做不一樣的規劃跟演練好 那就有關於台鐵部分有演練過幾次"},{"start":288.801,"end":317.387,"text":"包委員我們是每年都會做各分區都會做一次演練都是戰爭時期的演練嗎對我們也會跟國防部但是配合萬安46號的時候做演練對那個是萬安的演習是萬安演習那我們各分區有各分區我們自己內部依照我們的災害防救的要點要辦演習那所以說加持演習的時候像台鐵的這些所謂的這個火車這些都是被徵用的嗎"},{"start":318.848,"end":335.55,"text":"我們在演習會有劇本就如果像萬安演習我們就會各單位消防國防相關單位有劇本那依照劇本我們要提供的車輛還有人員我們都會來配合那一年的話在演練幾次萬安演習是一年會在"},{"start":336.771,"end":357.93,"text":"選擇定地點演習一次那我們自己各分區的每一年還會依照我們自己這個實際的狀況還有當年度發生的一些事件事故比較是重點的項目我們來做演練那我還是本期在這裡建議就是說因為在旺岸的話他是主要針對空襲模擬照明洗面跟旅客疏散"},{"start":358.53,"end":382.079,"text":"那其實真正要遇到這種情況的這種應變來講這樣子的演練規模可能不夠啊所以說本期還是建議局安思維啊那包括在遇到那種突發狀況的時候可能還是需要多一些演練的一個一個過程跟劇本啊對那好那謝謝那我還是要接著請教一下部長那在你剛才有提到這個"},{"start":384.06,"end":401.178,"text":"來台旅遊的人數有增加在第一季的部分那這就跟觀光署有關了那這個220萬人那你預計在第二季的話大約可以目標達到多少萬人報告委員我們當然希望可以再增加更多啦目前看起來第一季只有增加3%"},{"start":402.899,"end":427.547,"text":"這個部分坦白說我是覺得有點少那我們希望能夠再繼續增加更多那到底預測有多少早上也許多委員一直在問第二劑的話對第二劑這個變數其實蠻大因為現在看到這個關稅戰全球的經貿到底會長什麼樣的狀況其實各國目前都還在評估損失評估當中那這個事情對於整個觀光的衝擊我們也都還在觀察所以第二劑的目標數字"},{"start":428.687,"end":440.035,"text":"我認為這個變數很大我目前沒有辦法設定一個目標設定一個目標我希望能夠比第一劑再多3%最少所以說希望能夠在220再加個220再3%好那還是勉勵期待"},{"start":445.558,"end":467.992,"text":"我在這裡的話本身還是要就是也反映一下其實像剛才許多委員有提到目前在國外行銷觀光的這個亮點的部分他其實還是行銷過去既有的傳統的景點居多那我們在看到日本他們其實有很多的這種宗教的宗教的季節一些宗教的活動他也成為台灣人能夠去日本觀光旅遊的誘因"},{"start":468.672,"end":491.023,"text":"像現在台灣很明顯因為部長你也擔任過民意代表對阿公誰料換常會主持阿表哥天上聖母他就開始觀世音菩薩一連串就連我們的中元節在日本就對照起來就變成盂蘭盆季那所以本席再建議阿看到外國的觀光客來台灣看到這媽祖遶境阿大家是非常的感動阿所以其實在觀光在行銷我們台灣的這個亮點"},{"start":492.364,"end":508.239,"text":"其實也要藉由這個宗教的特色宗教的文化能夠把一些觀光客帶進來我覺得這個可以讓其他國外在看到台灣的觀光行銷比較耳目一新又有其他的誘因所以我在想說這個部分是不是可以研擬一些方案能夠讓這樣子來提升誘因"},{"start":508.84,"end":528.036,"text":"其實台灣有很多的誘因也有很多好玩的地方但是我們過去或許我們行銷的角度都沒有放在這些地方像委員剛剛所提醒的一些宗教活動在日本他們就做得相當成功那或許台灣也可以參考這樣子的案例我們也來做這樣子的行銷台灣還有很多不一樣的特色那在未來應該都要做出來給大家看得到"},{"start":528.797,"end":541.238,"text":"對 因為期許啦因為宗教也可以成為光光又隱智像我們竹山的大師爺文化祭也是確實吸引了全國的人潮那我就想這個部分希望能夠有具體方案再提供給本席辦公室好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce599dc46da52df047a9dd72f8e909e2235ac7c33fa4103456aa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"13:27:35 - 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我也對你關稅壁壘所有的一切 從多邊主義變成一對一單邊 然後都要重來 重談你對我 美國可以這樣對人家中國也可以這樣對人家市場大的 大國都可以這樣對任何每一個好欺負的那這樣子 這樣子"},{"start":210.236,"end":234.859,"text":"台灣會倒我們是以出口為導向的我們的經貿沒有出口賺不了錢我們會倒我們不但沒有市場我們也沒有資源沒有能源所以在這裡我其實更擔憂的是說不是舊股市而已股市 股災股災的受限就那些人雖然全台灣股民已經一千多萬了"},{"start":235.84,"end":260.325,"text":"一千多萬幾乎家家戶戶都有玩股票了這當然很嚴重可是經濟產業就業這個是更嚴重的那我其實很擔心你們啦很擔心你們的原因是說我們真的很想要知道說你政府到底有沒有掌握到掌握到雖然我們沒有辦法去預判到未來的遊戲世界貿易"},{"start":263.467,"end":274.004,"text":"的遊戲規則會怎麼演變也不敢去也不用這麼急著要去去擔憂 不用杞人憂天但是至少跟美國的經貿這一次的32%的加稅"},{"start":278.427,"end":305.425,"text":"如果沒有轉圜如果從今天就要生效那對我們國內的產業的衝擊會是集中在哪幾個產業別你才能夠告訴我說受衝擊的勞工會有多少而衝擊的對象他們需要什麼樣的政策來銜接來給他們保護起來這個保護網是足夠於網住他們讓他們衝擊不要太大的"},{"start":308.207,"end":332.906,"text":"部長你們有沒有討論過不只討論其實也做了評估那目前確實看起來針對這32%的關稅美方提出來32%但未來在談判過程裡面會不會調整這個還要看談判的狀況可是如果就這32%來看的話大家其實最擔心的事情是關於這些傳產的出口產出口製造業傳產一句話不要這樣一語帶過我需要更精準的了解到包括機械"},{"start":334.287,"end":350.558,"text":"包括汽車零組件包括像是一些金屬製品的水五金包括扣件業 螺絲螺馬你確定嗎我把你的朋友叫盧祁鴻他寫了一篇他的資料給你看來台灣對美國出口七成集中在十項類別看清楚啊"},{"start":361.065,"end":367.946,"text":"對還有包括剛才說包括電線電纜我還沒講包括電線電纜然後這個是產品而已對這個是產品來我講他的資料來台灣的這個出口裡面前十類是這種第一類是自動資料處理機器還有磁光"},{"start":389.392,"end":416.506,"text":"讀取器第二名統計上第二名是特定設備的零件與配件HS8473再來是電子集體電路及零件這個不討論因為這個是ITA對這個還沒有公佈是我不見得我不認為他會是豁免他只能說還沒有公佈再來是電話機加智慧型手機再來是光碟磁帶固定儲存設備"},{"start":418.874,"end":445.427,"text":"然後未分類的產品螺絲、螺栓、螺母、卯丁接下來是拖拉機運輸車輛零件和配件再來是變壓器、轉換器還有電感器零件最後才是運動器材和設備好這個是產品可是這一些HS開頭的編號這些產品對照到產業別是真的如你所說的是"},{"start":447.397,"end":458.922,"text":"機械產業還有什麼是嗎OK來他們對照道產業別應該是電子零組件製造業那這個電腦電子產品及光學製品製造業電力設備及配備製造業機械設備製造等好來那這幾個產業我剛剛講這幾個產業嘛這是你的好朋友"},{"start":476.786,"end":481.81,"text":"他自己去找資料 爬梳出來的我在官方部門 我至少你有看過這樣的統計嗎"},{"start":484.307,"end":508.439,"text":"我有看過 財務部門有相關的統計我們從勞動部的角度我們會特別關心的事情是因為包括我們還會關心說他是不是中小企業的比例特別高因為如果中小企業的比例特別高他遇到衝擊的時候他可能承受衝擊的能力會再比大的企業再來的更差這是我們從勞動部的角度來說我們要特別關心"},{"start":508.939,"end":516.903,"text":"好朋友關注的角度他是從總體來講因為我在官方沒有看到這個統計然後他看到台灣過去2023年全台灣的GDP比2000年因為2000年台灣剛要加入WTO"},{"start":530.971,"end":535.694,"text":"我們增加了這個12.91兆元就是這23年來台灣的GDP增加了12.91兆那其中32%是由剛剛對應的這四項產業所貢獻"},{"start":550.206,"end":578.588,"text":"所以過去二十幾年來的貿易自由化的這個極盛的時期台灣經濟成長主要的三成以上都來自這四項產業就是我剛剛念過電子零組件製造電腦電子產品和光學製品電力設備及配備製造業機械設備製造業這很關鍵喔三成以上台灣GDP成長的貢獻來自於這四大產業"},{"start":580.39,"end":590.491,"text":"而且現在就講到重點 受雇人數你們有沒有評估到 你說關注的是中小企業那有沒有評估到衝擊人數會有多少"},{"start":591.79,"end":619.25,"text":"我們其實有把這些相關的產業他的受僱的人數大概做了一些掌握重擊大概有多少但是我沒有辦法說那個產業裡面所有的勞工數字就是一定會受衝因為這裡面也包括你講得太好了因為也包括有一些產業他並不是他所有的訂單都是只有對美國你講得太正確了但是我還是要告訴你你的好朋友說的"},{"start":621.398,"end":637.449,"text":"這個受僱人數啊這一些產業它的產業特色是資本和技術密集度高一般GDP的成長全台灣成長了這麼高但是呢我們的受僱人數整體這20幾年來沒有什麼成長但是呢這個"},{"start":647.082,"end":652.714,"text":"成長的大部分GDP成長然後大部分都是在工業及服務業的人數成長了16%但2000年的話"},{"start":658.572,"end":675.547,"text":"2000年的話這些產業的僱用人數就是四大類整體是服務業在成長這20幾年來可是偏偏這四大項的產業的受僱人數它從84.8萬上升到2023年是124萬人"},{"start":683.956,"end":704.546,"text":"所以說這20幾年來這四項產業多僱用了40萬人在工業人數逐漸的佔比在下降可是這四大產業人數多了40萬的從業人口所以它還逆勢的佔整體工業及服務業受僱人數比重從14%"},{"start":707.273,"end":720.828,"text":"上升到15%所以我們現在看得到的就是說這幾項產業出口到美國的前幾大商品它對應的產業別它的受僱人數是大幅成長的"},{"start":723.9,"end":732.544,"text":"如果他受到衝擊 那衝擊很大可是他到底有沒有受到衝擊所以你的好朋友 他講了幾個觀點就是說我們32%的關稅放進去"},{"start":738.757,"end":753.755,"text":"我們會不會受到大的衝擊要考量幾個一個美國自己有我們的商品是不是無可替代啦是第二個消費者的價格彈性低再貴都會買如果是無可替代的話"},{"start":755.111,"end":759.054,"text":"你就要給我買啊 你不給我買就不會贏的啊就是關稅是由誰來承擔啦再來就是說 我們一樣賣東西到美國主要的競爭者他的關稅如果比我們高那也沒關係啊我們的主要競爭者如果是越南越南幾%"},{"start":778.973,"end":801.879,"text":"越南之前是46那如果我們主要競爭者是越南他們關稅課的比我們高我們會取代他們嘛搞不好因為這樣子我們還獲利呢所以這要來檢驗了那檢驗的狀況是這樣子台灣的生產成本其實如果美國貿易部門公布的有幾個比32%以上的我們就叫它高關稅國"},{"start":805.58,"end":823.326,"text":"那如果是10%到32%的叫中低關稅股好了那加拿大和墨西哥就不在加徵範圍內就不討論那台灣的產品你看一下我們的主要競爭者這幾類裡面你來看一下前四項前四項前四名"},{"start":832.862,"end":836.986,"text":"錢世明就是HS 8471 8473 8517還有8523抱歉我念錯了 8542和8517 8523沒有他們輸出到美國 在美國的市佔率是46%他的市佔率僅次於高關稅國跟高關稅"},{"start":856.845,"end":885.288,"text":"我們比高官稅的其他國家還要少一點他們加起來但我們跟所有的高官稅國加起來市佔率是73%所以高官稅國加我們加起來在美國的市佔率是73%那如果出口到美國前十大類的商品來看就是這張圖表來看這個高官稅國的市佔率很高"},{"start":887.54,"end":905.726,"text":"那我們是高關稅國裡面32%是最低的有可能我們還要替代掉他們因為我們可能比他們關稅還低那我們就有市場價格的競爭性這樣子然後再來就是說他這裡講到"},{"start":907.537,"end":932.484,"text":"八四七三 八五二三 七三一八 八七零八 八五零四就是特定設備的零件和配件 八五二三的光碟磁帶固態儲存設備螺絲 螺栓 螺紋 錨釘 拖拉機 運輸車輛零件和配件 偏壓器 轉換器和感電的零件等等"},{"start":933.749,"end":946.363,"text":"OK 這個高關稅國的市佔率不高可是我們都知道高關稅國他現在所公佈的那幾個國家包括越南 泰國 中國 印尼他們理論上價格的競爭優勢很高"},{"start":950.609,"end":969.018,"text":"他們的製造成本很低理論上他們的市占率應該在美國很高可是並沒有所以他們 你的好朋友說消費者或許重視品質更勝於價格但是呢 其實這個8523 7318"},{"start":974.667,"end":976.089,"text":"8708 8523 8708 8504他又覺得說這個被替代的可能性也是蠻高的"},{"start":985.836,"end":1008.094,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡就是說美國自己國內有然後要我們雖然不是無可取代但是他們要自己製造這個太難了但是就是說有一種是我們價格比較高但是因為品質比較好所以人家消費者需求的是品質而不是價格而已"},{"start":1009.415,"end":1026.347,"text":"但是呢我們真的是擔心就是說短期裡面我們或許看不到說馬上我們就有來自美國自己本土製造或是其他中低關稅國就把我們的產業產品都替代掉但是呢我們比較擔心的就是說你從這裡來看出口產業在面臨貿易自由化如果WTO架構瓦解的時候"},{"start":1041.453,"end":1048.36,"text":"這個未來都有可能那在這種狀況裡面我們真的是產業的寒冬可能會來臨產業的寒冬會來臨"},{"start":1053.12,"end":1074.969,"text":"光是短暫的評估美國的這個衝擊我們還看不出到底是所有的產業都會受到衝擊或者是只是部分那這個勞工怎麼辦那我們就想到說那你端出來的政策夠不夠你的就業安定安定就業的四大措施夠不夠在這裡面我就想要跟你討論一下"},{"start":1077.34,"end":1103.032,"text":"之前我們一直關心的就是無薪假津貼那因為上一屆我被人家踢出去未還委員會我從2016年就關心無薪假津貼那到持續關心到我被迫我不准參加未還委員會來然後終於看到2023年我們的無薪假津貼你們已經修正了就是就業保險促進就業的實施辦法"},{"start":1105.993,"end":1130.55,"text":"你們說只要勞僱雙方有人開始協商要減少工時就是好聽 我講說你們講的很好聽叫減班休息其實就無形價那經評估有必要時勞動部得召開雇用安定措施的諮詢會議然後去辦理雇用安定措施"},{"start":1132.059,"end":1157.435,"text":"好那我的意思我的問題跟跟跟我的說明其實減班休息雖然外界會認為是無薪假但他並不是真的無薪台灣的減班休息是要付基本工資的我知道很多的國家他的無薪假是不用付不用付基本工但台灣的所以講無薪假有的時候會讓人家真的以為他是真的無薪但並不是真的無薪"},{"start":1157.964,"end":1174.903,"text":"好你們要用減班休息也可以但是也有人真的是說你不希望你不希望無薪的話他可能給的沒有給到全薪喔這個是執行面的問題是他會不給全薪但至少他要給不給全部的基本工資喔也有喔但是大家"},{"start":1175.123,"end":1179.829,"text":"不好說 這個就不要講了 要爭持在這當然你要講說他不符合而且違法可是勞工沒有談判的籌碼有時候他就是要多這個錢好 那我現在不爭持這個名詞我現在要問的是說"},{"start":1191.624,"end":1208.022,"text":"到底你們什麼時候會我們重點是當你們不早一點啟動這個機制然後當衝擊來的因為今天4月9號要開始嘛然後你們的安定措施諮詢會議你認為你什麼時候可能會召開"},{"start":1209.158,"end":1223.715,"text":"跟委員報告我們過去其實會有一些關於安定就業相關的政策的工具我們在把這些政策工具現在也在做一些經驗的彙整可是我們目前是要來去規劃出一個因應目前關稅的版本"},{"start":1224.995,"end":1252.43,"text":"這個因為過去關稅的版本的意思是說比方說我們過去可能把這些相關的工具它是用在疫情的期間可是疫情裡面其實它很多是服務業可是這一次很多是出口的製造業它還是會有情境上面的不同所以我們希望能夠把這些相關的工具它可能啟動的條件或者是適用的範圍包括是支持力度如果需要加碼的話都有一個相對在這一次關稅的量身訂做的做法那這也不是只有針對剛剛"},{"start":1253.951,"end":1279.936,"text":"林委員說的這個雇用安定的措施其實我們相對應的好幾個就業工具現在都在做這些情境跟條件的重新的盤整我再提醒你一下你的就業保險促進就業的實施辦法裡面不是限於服務業喔不是限於服務業喔你剛剛講的好像說在疫情期間才這麼寬鬆不是這個是一體試用而且就是工業服務業通通一體試用製造業都一體試用而且我再提醒你一下"},{"start":1281.036,"end":1292.396,"text":"第一個要件叫受景氣因素影響導致停工或減產那這個美國關稅的這個衝擊夠不夠成這個第一個要件的第一句話"},{"start":1294.475,"end":1302.36,"text":"如果造成衝擊我認為當然是符合的所以這裡也包括我們在跟經濟部針對這個問題在做討論因為相對應的這個產業是經濟部會來跟我們做申請因為我們的就業保險促進就業實施辦法裡面第一句話就是要受景氣因素這樣子你認為是OK 那很好"},{"start":1314.386,"end":1331.605,"text":"再來就是說中小企業的平均壽命中小企業13年那傳產的或中小企業的傳產裡面很多勞工從業人員我們都知道整體的勞工大概有八成都是在中小企業就業"},{"start":1333.018,"end":1357.241,"text":"所有企業提供了八成的勞工的就業機會傳產裡面從業人員也都是資深人員居多當年輕做到資深都是中高齡而這一波如果受衝擊的就是中高齡中高齡的人真的如果放了無薪假然後再重新出發有那麼容易重新就業嗎大家都知道是問號"},{"start":1358.522,"end":1363.862,"text":"沒那麼容易所以你現在的安心就業你們的四大措施裡面"},{"start":1365.171,"end":1377.576,"text":"維持雇用安定薪資差額補貼減班休息可是你諮詢會議都還沒開充電再出發然後叫他們去參訓那他們要參訓什麼產業他們能夠參訓什麼產業鼓勵企業辦訓在職訓練中小企業都沒有在職訓練"},{"start":1390.781,"end":1399.871,"text":"辦訓的能力協助微型創業利息補貼中高齡失業也不太有這個能力自行去創業"},{"start":1401.972,"end":1419.093,"text":"所以你這個對製造業的中高齡勞工而言可能距離很遙遠所以我們其實希望要特別針對現在的情境去做這些你針對現在的情境就是第一個製造業"},{"start":1420.034,"end":1423.257,"text":"不是服務業嘛 優先中階是製造業再來就是中小型的製造業中小型的製造業然後呢中高齡然後你說辦訓中小企業辦訓這個是"},{"start":1437.799,"end":1451.331,"text":"我們也可以辦訓所以我們也在調整我們的辦訓因為也有一些工會來跟我們說他們也希望說如果要有一些把他們轉換到其他的產業的時候他們希望我很樂意聽到你說你們也願意辦訓或是委託其他職業工會來辦訓因為你端出來的時候是講鼓勵企業辦訓我是跟你講這個是"},{"start":1463.141,"end":1471.288,"text":"我們也在這個裡面 包括我們自己在多辦訊 而且辦訊的方向也希望能夠去符合接下來新的產業的需求你講對了 可是新的產業這些中高齡有辦法馬上上手嗎而且中高齡成功轉換"},{"start":1478.995,"end":1506.696,"text":"行業的這個統計你們有看得出來留任率高嗎其實我們看到相對於年輕族群中高齡尋找新工作的過程都是很辛苦和漫長的啦光是要找到願意聘僱自己的僱主都很難的所以最終他們都是面臨到淪為流動性最高低薪低技術的派遣勞工或者是提早退休或者是失業"},{"start":1507.797,"end":1525.275,"text":"經常是這樣子所以你端出來的牛肉要能夠網得住他們銜接得住他們那要很務實啊跟林委員說明我們其實現在當然因為台灣的人口結構包括勞動結構確實一定會往中高齡去所以我們對於中高齡的協助包括"},{"start":1526.256,"end":1548.901,"text":"有一些相對應的措施不管是訓練也好甚至植物在設計也好需要更細緻的來協助他們你在這裡講這幾句話都很容易啊但是你設計出來很具體的很務實的是什麼那就不容易了那光是你第一點你世大安定措施裡面第一點就是所謂的無薪假津貼我們不講無薪假叫簡班休息津貼我就問你的你們的諮詢會議沒有辦理"},{"start":1555.064,"end":1567.177,"text":"你就沒有辦法馬上立即及時第一個第二個第二個其實你不用怕太早辦理因為太早辦理你們的實施辦法裡面還有一條狀況OK的情境景氣變好了隨時可以中斷"},{"start":1570.02,"end":1574.941,"text":"所以不要怕太早啟動你們的諮詢會議所以我再問你一次你覺得可以盡早來啟動這個諮詢會議你們評估這個衝擊有沒有可能什麼時候會開始這個諮詢會議如果你們諮詢會議啟動了我們才有辦法去申請津貼啊我們應該可以在下週就來啟動這個諮詢會議好 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藝術設計還有整個文化的底蘊都有在裡面那我們是希望說嘉義縣經過嘉義的時候除了我們既有的阿里山它當然是一個很棒的景點"},{"start":118.118,"end":132.943,"text":"也要把我們的平原區特別是包含我們大林啊包含我們民雄啊這些都是平原區他們有一些特殊的這些地景地貌以及他們本來的這些人文的這個地景還有藝術這些文化的這些底蘊都可以把它包括進去"},{"start":133.903,"end":155.604,"text":"那大林跟民雄也是一個重要的事項其實我們的主題可以非常多元它當然是我們有阿里山的話當然有生田那當然就是以森林文化這個歷史傳承的記憶但是我們也有農業農業的文化還有這個親子旅遊為主題的這些列車我覺得它可以做的方向滿多的不知道總經理會不會做這方面的來考量一下"},{"start":157.066,"end":176.761,"text":"委員說的這個意見我們都很認同就是說嘉義縣也有很多地方比如說南進唐場那這些都是地方很有特色的一些地點我們現在目前也是在推車站結合地方創生那我們希望也可以透過這個明日號等觀光列車的行駛把它做一個串聯"},{"start":177.321,"end":202.388,"text":"像比方說我們民雄的這個車站那旁邊就有一群日式的建築等於說他過去他就是有他的歷史底蘊在這些都可以把他納入整體的去規劃不知道總經理可不可以把這個課題帶回去跟這個員工們來討論一下好我們這個課題我們會帶回去也跟我們的承辦的旅行社一起來共同討論怎麼樣設計出那個套裝的旅程謝謝那另外部長我想要"},{"start":203.288,"end":229.542,"text":"再質詢另外一個跟我們的國家的長遠的外交需求就有一點關聯那之前我們在院會的時候我有質詢過就是說台灣跟這個美國的關係真的是日漸緊密那未來我們遇到了許多挑戰包含關稅的挑戰都需要派我方的談判人員去美方跟他們交涉去美國那直航"},{"start":230.822,"end":245.987,"text":"會讓我們的外交人員 經貿談判人員能夠更快速有效的把我們的狀況來去做傳遞不知道部長有沒有考量跟華航來去舊華府的航向醫院做一個重新的評估"},{"start":247.037,"end":272.015,"text":"是委員您在提到的這個是我們政策上可能有需要不一定是只有考量這個市場需求不是只有考量市場需求的部分那我們會跟華航這邊來討論看有沒有這樣的可能性這個兩方面都要配合啦一方面是我們要有國籍的航空公司願意飛那另外一方面是華府那邊的機場我們可以過得去他們也願意讓我們過去這個部分兩個部分我們都會來溝通"},{"start":272.884,"end":300.333,"text":"我是希望這個部分是更加的以政策為導向那不是只有市場為導向其實過去捷克的這個執行可能最開始一半市場一半政策導向但是證明他是有市場效益的嘛那有一陣子是我記得是班班都客滿那我們希望說對華府跟我們對美國之間當然說除了傳統的市場經貿上面的之外啊觀光文化等等還是希望有這個機會來去把這個航線能夠建立起來是好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1276,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時49分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，我看臺鐵近年是非常積極地推動觀光列車的政策，鳴日號是深入東部，藍皮解憂號是行駛南迴，環島之星就是橫跨全臺，連中部沿海也有短暫開行這個……叫海風號嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：那我想請教一下，就嘉義的西部幹線可不可以啟動這種觀光鐵道路線的評估？這方面的資訊可不可以分享一下？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，這個部分沒有問題。報告委員，其實今天也有別的委員問過同樣的問題，我想大概是因為臺鐵的觀光列車做得非常好，大家一直希望能夠爭取。鳴日號在整個西部走廊的規劃也已經規劃出來，是不是可以請總經理回應一下？"],["陳委員冠廷：沒問題，請總經理回應一下。"],["馮總經理輝昇：跟委員報告，現在鳴日號有東部路線跟西部路線，目前規劃的西部路線會特別把嘉義的阿里山地區還有臺南地區都整個納到行程規劃裡面。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，但其實我們嘉義除了阿里山當然有森鐵系統在，那真的是……前陣子我跟總統一起上去，它的觀光列車在國內外都得到很多好評，值得我們效法，包括整體視覺設計、藝術設計，還有整個文化底蘊都有在裡面。但我們是希望經過嘉義的時候，除了既有的阿里山當然是一個很棒的景點，也要把平原區，特別是包含大林、包含民雄啊！這些都是平原區，他們有一些特殊的地景、地貌以及一些本來的人文地景、藝術、文化，這些底蘊都可以把它包括進去。大林跟民雄也是重要的市鎮，其實主題可以非常多元。阿里山的話有森鐵，當然就是以森林文化、歷史傳承記憶為主，但是我們也有農業，所以有農業的文化，還有親子旅遊為主題的列車，我覺得可以做的方向滿多的。不知道總經理會不會就這方面考量一下？"],["馮總經理輝昇：委員說的意見我們都很認同，就是說嘉義縣也有很多地方，比如說南靖糖廠，這些都是地方上很有特色的地點，我們目前也在推車站結合地方創生，希望可以透過鳴日號等觀光列車的行駛把它做個串聯。"],["陳委員冠廷：是啊！比方說我們民雄車站旁邊有一群日式建築，等於有過去的歷史底蘊在，這些都可以把它納入整體規劃，不知道總經理可不可以把這個課題帶回去跟員工們討論一下？"],["馮總經理輝昇：好，這個課題我們會帶回去，也跟我們的承辦旅行社共同討論怎麼設計出套裝旅程。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。另外，部長，我想要再質詢另外一個問題，跟我們國家長遠的外交需求就有點關聯了。之前在院會時我有質詢過，臺灣跟美國的關係真的是日漸緊密，未來我們遇到的許多挑戰，包含關稅的挑戰，都需要派我方談判人員跟美方交涉、去美國，而直航會讓我們的外交人員、經貿談判人員能夠更快速有效地把我們的狀況作傳遞。不知道部長有沒有考量跟華航就華府航向意願做重新評估？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您提到的是我們在政策上可能有需要啦！"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，政策上。"],["陳部長世凱：不一定是只考量市場需求……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，不是只有需求。"],["陳部長世凱：不是只有考量市場需求的部分，我們會跟華航討論看看有沒有這樣的可能性。兩方面都要配合啦！一方面是我們要有國籍航空公司願意飛，另外一方面是華府那邊的機場我們可以過得去、他們也願意讓我們過去，這兩個部分我們都會溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：我希望這個部分更加以政策為導向，不是只以市場為導向。其實，過去捷克直航最開始可能是一半市場導向、一半政策導向，但是證明是有市場效益的，我記得有一陣子班班都客滿。而在我們對華府跟我們對美國之間，除了傳統市場、經貿上的關係之外，還有觀光、文化等等，我還是希望有這樣的機會去把這條航線建立起來。好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：賴瑞隆、賴瑞隆、賴瑞隆委員不在。","林倩綺、林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","劉建國、劉建國、劉建國委員不在。","王義川、王義川、王義川委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","陳瑩、陳瑩、陳瑩委員不在。","登記發言委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：第一、報告及詢答完畢。第二、委員劉建國、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。第三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請陳部長陳部長委員好"},{"start":18.991,"end":45.352,"text":"部長好 部長你有去過阿里山嗎去過那你就任之後有再上去過嗎沒有 一直想要去那希望下次你可以排個時間再去到訪阿里山因為它被紐約時報評選為世界排名第19名值得造訪的地方這是台灣之光還超越了日本但是我要請你看一個數據這個讓人家看起來覺得很心酸我們的這個台灣之光"},{"start":48.394,"end":55.483,"text":"世界應該來造訪的據點結果他的旅客數從10年前有276萬現在到113年下降到只有89萬9千多"},{"start":64.065,"end":79.816,"text":"這個組組少了180萬我覺得這個對於一個我們台灣國際知名的觀光景點來講這個人數少的太多你知不知道這個下降的幅度這麼大的原因是什麼少了哪一個國家的觀光客"},{"start":81.005,"end":94.022,"text":"報告委員他有一段時間是因為他那個鐵路停駛所以他下降的速度是相當的快那之後慢慢在恢復當中那您在說的那個國家我是不曉得但我猜委員要講的應該是對岸"},{"start":96.733,"end":124.956,"text":"應該是因為過去你如果比較10年前跟10年後10年前當時台灣我們的旅遊人數可以破千萬那這個對岸大概貢獻了大概300多萬所以就是少了它像這個去年整個我們雖然要一直提振其他國家來的觀光但是呢少了入客之後這是不爭的事實足足也是少掉了300萬所以你的千萬目標沒有辦法達成你的700加300大概就是可以破"},{"start":126.037,"end":135.656,"text":"那我只是讓部長可以看到就是說雖然兩岸現在有一些政治因素的干擾但是我們可以賺人民幣應該不是罪過吧"},{"start":136.536,"end":166.216,"text":"人民幣有罪嗎沒有啊沒罪沒罪嘛對不對那所以在入客開放這個部分特別是現在整個關稅高關稅的議題對大家的經濟衝擊很大那觀光是無煙囪的工業所以他其實是可以為我們現在就是普遍包括未來這個服務業都會大受影響如果說我們有辦法可以打一劑強心針在這個過程當中去穩住我們的觀光客的人數那這一個方向"},{"start":166.816,"end":193.119,"text":"我不曉得為什麼你們要一直堅持反對到現在應該不是你的問題交通部沒有反對過交通部都沒有反對嘛那是陸委會一直在擋啊也不是啦其實是兩岸應該要有序的去溝通這件事情那目前設定就是小兩會因為過去也是透過小兩會在溝通那目前台灣的小兩會我所知道的是我們已經跟對岸表達想要溝通的意願但是對岸目前還沒回覆我們"},{"start":193.732,"end":213.751,"text":"那有一種情況是一定要透過小兩會嗎如果對岸他想要組團我們就讓他來了呢就讓第一個團就開始成型然後事後我們再回過頭針對兩岸硬要協商的議題再慢慢談不行嗎因為方法有很多種但是當你只堅持只能這樣的時候路就走不通啊"},{"start":214.71,"end":233.624,"text":"其實方法很多種啊是看我們要不要釋放出彈性而已啊但是報告委員過去陸客來台的人數很多不過我們也看到了一些問題當然啊現在的問題是很少也產生的問題啊是也產生的問題但我們也顧慮的到一件事就是說他們的旅客來台灣也必須要安全所以很多的安全問題包含保險的問題我們兩岸要先談好"},{"start":236.286,"end":252.684,"text":"但是這個坦白講部長我們兩岸的溝通交流不是說首次啦都已經有經驗了所以其實那個所謂的問題其實也不是什麼大問題這個其實大家都知道我只是要提醒說當日本當新加坡"},{"start":253.385,"end":275.763,"text":"他們其實是一直持續的開放的時候我們去阻擋路客他們就往日本跑往新加坡跑賺的是他們的錢那我們這邊就白白損失我們家一向很可憐我們想多賣一點茶葉給路客沒有辦法我們想多賣一點伴手禮沒有辦法阿里山的觀光我們希望有人可以來提振但是最喜歡去阿里山的坦白講是路客"},{"start":276.403,"end":304.369,"text":"因為他們在課本裡面都有教阿里山所以他們嚮往要去阿里山但是現在你看竹竹少掉這麼多人對阿里山的觀光來講的確是衝擊我也知道其實你不是全責單位啦這個是更上層的國安單位他們的意見會主導這整個政策只是我希望說交通部你可以站在你們交通部的立場去思考多開放這個旅客來台對我們是越有利越開放也是越安全我是"},{"start":305.489,"end":332.072,"text":"贊成這樣的一個思維另外一個最後我想要跟這個部長討論的是既然嘉義縣這個阿里山是國際知名地標那從高鐵到這個進到阿里山的他相關的這個鐵道軌道的建設其實很重要那最近嘉義市市長黃明慧市長一直在提一個議題就是嘉義的輕軌一直是被排除那這個部分呢這個這個表你看得很清楚就是說"},{"start":332.632,"end":352.84,"text":"在整個高鐵的連外軌道系統現在是獨落嘉義嘉義是沒有到現在沒有啟動但是他的那個所有的廊道都已經規劃了那這個部分問題要怎麼解部長報告委員不是沒有規劃現在我們也有補助了一筆款項給地方政府也就是嘉義市政府做可行性的評估"},{"start":353.84,"end":371.832,"text":"他的評估的結論裡面沒有去提到一點所有的捷運系統基本上都有中央跟地方負擔的金額但是嘉義市政府並沒有提出來中央跟負擔的金額我們需要他提這個部分才有辦法再往前推進這個問題不在交通部這個問題其實嘉義市政府要趕快把這個東西提出來"},{"start":373.053,"end":392.973,"text":"那因為其實過去你可以看到有關於連外軌道系統交通部都是主政單位這件事情我覺得大家不要只是公文的往返我前幾天才遇到黃明慧市長他又當面跟我提了一件這件事情那我是不是可以請這個部長因為中央部會主管機關你們的高度還是比較高"},{"start":393.393,"end":417.765,"text":"是不是你們可以邀集嘉義縣市政府針對這件事情大家可以有一個面對面的討論就是說到底我們現在不要就卡在這邊事實上因為嘉義縣市他們共同擁有這個阿里山又是我們對外的台灣之光我覺得把它的所有的這些軌道弄好然後交通更便利對我們提振我們的觀光其實是更有效益的我是不是可以請部長你由交通部來召開一個會議"},{"start":420.987,"end":436.706,"text":"就邀請嘉義縣市就是他們的首長大家坐下來針對這個議題大家是不是可以面對面的好好談一談你們現在都是公文王範沒有面對面你沒有跟那個黃市長好好的坐下來談過這件事吧"},{"start":437.598,"end":453.053,"text":"沒有還沒有那因為你是部長嘛你是中央部會主管機關是不是您可以約這個黃市長還有約翁章良縣長大家坐下來針對這件事情接下來到底可以怎麼樣的處理大家面對面溝通一下談一下可以嗎"},{"start":453.513,"end":472.321,"text":"我們再來安排好啊好不好那就拜託部長我覺得這件事情是關乎整個嘉義的發展就不要只是因為說這個經費要怎麼分攤然後就停留在公文的階段好不好我們一起把這件事情促成然後讓整個嘉義縣整個阿里山的觀光發展未來也會更好好謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1229,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（13時41分）謝謝主席，我們有請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你去過阿里山嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：去過。"],["王委員育敏：去過喔？那你就任之後再上去過嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：沒有喔？"],["陳部長世凱：一直想要去。"],["王委員育敏：好，那希望你下一次可以排個時間再到訪阿里山。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["王委員育敏：因為它被紐約時報評選為世界排名第19名值得造訪的地方，所以是臺灣之光，還超越了日本。但是我要請你看一個數據，這個讓人看起來覺得很心酸。我們的臺灣之光、世界應該來造訪的據點，結果它的旅客數從10年前有276萬人，現在、到了113年，下降到只有八十九萬九千多人，足足少了180萬人，我覺得對於一個我們臺灣國際知名的觀光景點來講，這個人數少得太多！你知不知道下降幅度這麼大的原因是什麼？少了哪一個國家的觀光客？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，有一段時間是因為鐵路停駛，所以下降速度是相當地快，但之後慢慢在恢復當中。而您在說的那個國家我是不曉得，但我猜委員要講的應該是對岸。"],["王委員育敏：嗯！應該是喔！因為如果比較過去、十年前跟十年後，十年前，當時我們臺灣的旅遊人數可以破千萬人，對岸大概貢獻了三百多萬人，所以少了它……像去年，我們雖然一直要提振其他國家來的觀光，但是少了陸客之後，這是不爭的事實，也足足少掉300萬人，所以你的千萬目標沒有辦法達成，若700萬加上300萬大概就可以破1,000萬啦！我只是要讓部長可以看到，雖然兩岸現在有一些政治因素的干擾，但是我們可以賺人民幣應該不是罪過吧？！人民幣有罪嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有啊！沒罪。"],["王委員育敏：沒罪嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["王委員育敏：所以在陸客開放這個部分，特別是現在整個高關稅議題對大家的經濟衝擊很大，而觀光是無煙囪的工業，其實除了現在普遍受到影響，包括未來的服務業也都會大受影響。如果我們有辦法打一劑強心針，在這個過程當中穩住我們的觀光客人數，我不曉得這個方向你們為什麼要一直堅持反對到現在。應該不是你的問題，是不是陸委會……"],["陳部長世凱：交通部沒有反對過。"],["王委員育敏：交通部都沒有反對嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是的，沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：那是陸委會一直在擋啊！"],["陳部長世凱：也不是啦！其實是兩岸應該要有序地溝通這件事情，目前的設定就是小兩會，因為過去也是透過小兩會溝通。關於目前臺灣的小兩會，我所知道的是我們已經跟對岸表達想要溝通的意願，但是對岸目前還沒回復我們。"],["王委員育敏：那麼有一種情況一定要透過小兩會嗎？如果對岸想要組團，我們就讓他們來呢？也就是讓第一個團開始成行，事後再回過頭針對兩岸應該協商的議題慢慢談，不行嗎？因為方法有很多種，但是當你堅持只能這樣的時候，路就走不通啊！其實方法有很多種啊！是看我們要不要釋放出彈性而已啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，過去陸客來臺人數很多，不過我們也看到一些問題……"],["王委員育敏：當然啊！但現在的問題是很少，也產生了問題啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是，也產生了問題，但我們也顧慮到一件事，就是他們的旅客來臺灣也必須安全……"],["王委員育敏：當然啊！"],["陳部長世凱：所以針對很多安全問題，包含保險問題在內，兩岸要先談好，談好之後再去……"],["王委員育敏：當然啊！但是坦白講，部長，我們兩岸的溝通交流不是首次啦！都已經有經驗了，所謂的問題其實也不是什麼大問題，這個大家都知道。我只是要提醒，當日本、當新加坡其實一直持續地開放的時候，我們阻擋陸客，他們就往日本跑、往新加坡跑，賺錢的是他們，那我們這邊就白白損失啊！我們嘉義鄉親很可憐啊！我們想多賣一點茶葉給陸客啊！沒有辦法，我們想多賣一點伴手禮，沒有辦法。對於阿里山的觀光，我們也希望有人可以來提振，而最喜歡去阿里山的坦白講是陸客，因為在他們的課本裡面都有教到阿里山，所以他們嚮往去阿里山。但是你看現在足足少掉這麼多人，對阿里山的觀光來講的確是衝擊。我也知道其實你不是權責單位啦！是更上層的國安單位，他們的意見會主導整個政策，只是我希望交通部可以站在你們交通部的立場思考，多開放旅客來臺對我們是愈有利，愈開放也是愈安全，我是贊成這樣的思維。","另外一點，我最後想跟部長討論的是，既然嘉義縣的阿里山是國際知名地標，從高鐵進到阿里山的相關鐵道、軌道建設其實很重要。但最近嘉義市黃敏惠市長一直在提一個議題，就是嘉義市輕軌一直被排除。這個部分從這個表看得很清楚，就是說整個高鐵聯外軌道系統現在是獨漏嘉義！嘉義市沒有，到現在都沒有啟動，但是它的所有廊道都已經規劃了。在這個部分，問題要怎麼解，部長？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，不是沒有規劃，現在我們補助了一筆款項給地方政府，也就是嘉義市政府做可行性評估。它的評估結論裡面沒有提到一點：所有捷運系統基本上都有中央跟地方負擔的金額，但是嘉義市政府並沒有提出中央跟地方負擔的金額，而我們需要它提出這個部分，才有辦法再往前推進。這個問題不在交通部，其實是嘉義市政府要趕快把這個東西提出來。"],["王委員育敏：好。","其實過去可以看到，關於聯外軌道系統，交通部都是主政單位，這件事情我覺得大家不要只是公文的往返。我前幾天才遇到黃敏惠市長，她又當面跟我提了一遍這件事情，那我是不是可以請部長協助？因為作為中央部會主管機關，你們的高度還是比較高，是不是可以由你們邀集嘉義縣市政府，針對這件事情，大家面對面地討論到底現在怎麼做，不要又卡在這邊。事實上，因為嘉義縣市共同擁有阿里山，又是我們對外的臺灣之光，我覺得應該把所有這些軌道弄好、讓交通更便利，對提振我們的觀光其實是更有效益的。我是不是可以請部長協助，由交通部召開一場會議，邀請嘉義縣市的首長，大家坐下來，針對這個議題，大家是不是可以面對面地好好談一談？你們現在都是公文往返，沒有面對面。你沒有跟黃市長好好坐下來談過這件事吧？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有欸！"],["王委員育敏：還沒有？因為你是部長、你是中央部會主管機關，那您是不是可以約黃市長還有翁章梁縣長，大家坐下來，針對這件事情接下來到底可以怎麼樣處理面對面溝通一下、談一下，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們再來安排。"],["王委員育敏：好啊！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["王委員育敏：那就拜託部長。我覺得這件事情關乎整個嘉義的發展，就不要只因為經費要怎麼分攤就停留在公文的階段，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["王委員育敏：我們一起把這件事情促成，然後整個嘉義縣、整個阿里山的觀光發展未來也會更好。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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我們請部長 還有署長 觀光署長請部長 署長委員好 召委好部長 署長 大家好你今天很累 我知道 但是也要要求你先看這個數據"},{"start":28.143,"end":52.466,"text":"日本3000多萬、泰國3000多萬、越南1700多萬、韓國1600多萬他們的明年的目標通通有在增加那剛剛其實其昌委員提到的我也蠻有感觸的啦我跟部長報告一下就是日本在2030年他的目標期望值是6000萬"},{"start":55.117,"end":77.772,"text":"所以我們在看事情不是只是看這個時刻那也不是只是看明年我要達到什麼目標我長遠來講應該怎麼樣去做比如說日本他要達到6000萬2030年他該做多少事他現在就應該要想啦"},{"start":80.37,"end":90.959,"text":"而我們公安署今年是786萬民警的目標是去年是786 今年的目標是1000萬"},{"start":95.236,"end":122.85,"text":"明年啊2030年啊我們有沒有目標我們有一個長期的規劃啦那個當然也有一個目標值但目前還在討論當中這個計畫我們還在討論發生這個目標我們要拿什麼特色來吸引人家來比如說你去日本你可能想說去洗溫泉啦日本很乾淨啦你去泰國你可能想說去玩水啦"},{"start":124.275,"end":151.868,"text":"好那部長你來台灣你是外國人你台灣最想去哪裡如果是外國人的觀點如果是你的我們討論了很多啦就是大家對台灣的這個知道的點大概就那幾個好例如說101那幾個之外還沒有想到什麼對大概101故宮日月潭阿里山等等之類的還想去哪裡嘛除了這幾個剛才有人講過好像是先傳還是其他人講過署長那個"},{"start":153.566,"end":181.915,"text":"你現在來台灣除了剛才他們講過這幾個點你還想去哪裡 還想做什麼我們現在全球都是以主題式的理由啦譬如說有曼城 有小鎮然後有我簡單的講因為時間不多我只是提問題讓你們想啦因為其實回答都差不多啦因為我做主席在這裡聽這麼久回答出來的答案都差不多啦我想說就是說我們用一個不一樣的想法去思考"},{"start":183.356,"end":205.468,"text":"我到底是要怎麼keep in 我的時間要多久 我有什麼要求嗎所以我現在第一個想法就是我希望觀光部 觀光署跟交通部我們想一下2030年我們大概希望多少人而不是只是想今年我要多少人 我明年要多少人那我大概多少人之後呢 我應該要怎麼樣去完成"},{"start":207.845,"end":234.651,"text":"比如說台灣比其他國家強的地方是什麼我們要用比其他地方強的來吸引人家來比如說自然風光比如說歷史文化比如說在地特色那我到底是用哪一些點就像剛才部長一直說的 你要希望一個圖像"},{"start":237.535,"end":264.786,"text":"人們要來台灣的圖像是什麼其實我之前部長之前我也跟署長提過就是說其實我認為台灣比世界最強的其實是美食啦你想要去台灣做什麼,我會去台灣吃很多好吃的東西全世界各地的美食都有比如說剛才那個巧克力過河果我倒還蠻喜歡的"},{"start":267.591,"end":293.925,"text":"類似那一種感覺就是說進步的我們希望有創造出來嗎比如說剛剛署長也有提到的米其林我之前也有要求過就是說台北有米其林我們國用沒有米其林現在感謝有來了啦有好幾家我們高雄現在已經有滿多米其林來了所以這個也要謝謝署長有聽進去有努力但是我一直"},{"start":295.547,"end":312.559,"text":"語重心長或者我一直很感慨的希望就是說我希望創造剛才柏中說的我們有圖像剛才蘇中說的我們有主題讓世界的人看到台灣想到這個東西他想要來所以這個問題很大啦也不是很容易就馬上回答我我也知道我仔細記一下其實我一直覺得說"},{"start":326.104,"end":351.193,"text":"我們台灣的美食真的可以影響全世界我在北部、中部、南部、東部定定我要創造什麼特色出來我可以跟地方政府討論我地方政府可以補助去創造一個東西出來比如說之前我也跟署長提到我們台鐵其實現在公司的話部長也很熟了"},{"start":352.602,"end":377.711,"text":"說實話之後台鐵其實有很多我之前也舉例過就是六都風華或者是鐵道秘境六都風華就是說我每個直轄市裡面我要創造什麼直轄市的特色共同創造我鐵道秘境裡面我每一個鄉間小村啊我每一個店啊我都可以找出那個地方的在地特色說實在的"},{"start":379.181,"end":392.655,"text":"最在地才會最國際啦那我今天如果沒有在地特色我就很難創造出國際的人來觀光嘛所以是不是就是說請交通部跟觀光署就是說今天我們一"},{"start":395.97,"end":420.826,"text":"假設部長有一天你當院長啦假設啦那假設是2030年啦我給你預測這樣會不會有進步那你再看回來啦你今天的想法跟五年後、六年後之後你現在有沒有辦法落實那台灣創造什麼樣的特色我們廣東人口日本現在六千好了我現在假設台灣兩千好了啦"},{"start":426.355,"end":451.73,"text":"我現在今年是七八六嘛我設定我二零三年我要兩千萬嘛我要有這種破例跟願景去做幾位去結合各個不同的部會今天我交通部因為觀光室的程序沒到那裡他要去結合各部會有困難這樣交通部我依交通觀光部的角度"},{"start":453.283,"end":459.008,"text":"我和各部會、各地方政府聯繫我們就會討論類似創造這樣子的特色台灣有機會在2030年創造2000萬的觀光人口進來"},{"start":468.719,"end":495.682,"text":"這樣會改良我不知道保庭會接受嗎報告委員您這個概念是很正確啦就是說我們要先設定一個目標那在這幾個幾年裡面要怎麼樣達成這個目標台灣應該呈現什麼樣子的觀光的印象給全球的客人這個是我們該去塑造的那也確實剛剛委員有提醒一點我們要跟各部會一起合作因為坦白講觀光署目前能做的大部分是行銷告訴大家現在的台灣是什麼樣子"},{"start":496.423,"end":514.135,"text":"但是台灣要真的變得很好玩是大家一起努力包含地方政府包含各部會大家一起努力才有辦法變得更好謝謝部長因為時間的關係這個部分我們會跟大家討論我也沒有想要吵架就是我們最要一句話就是說像日本這樣他們希望2030年是六千萬"},{"start":515.396,"end":543.652,"text":"那我希望2030年台灣市兩千萬那部長2030年你可能還有機會再公佈門我希望那時候問你的時候可以看到成果這樣大頭有比較長啦但是我是覺得你沒有這樣規劃到格局你要你就做不到那個程度嘛那各部會該協調的就像部長帶著觀光署怎麼樣去協調各部會我的目標就是要達到這樣子一個期望值"},{"start":544.172,"end":571.628,"text":"那有很多需要努力的有很多不同的各個不同的面向都需要去努力的那你就是要有一個這樣的步驟去找觀光室去協調各部會去設定期望者去做一個主題或是特色的創造跟改變我們看我就看到那個當時2013年年當時那個時候我們可以看到的成果是往這個目標去努力好不好好希望可以達成啊好我們努力好好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":979,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時15分）謝謝主席，請部長及觀光署長。"],["主席：請部長及署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長、署長，大家好。我知道你們今天很累，但還是必須要求。你先看這個數據，觀光人次日本三千多萬、泰國三千多萬、越南一千七百多萬、韓國一千六百多萬，他們明年的目標通通都有增加。對於剛剛其昌委員所言，其實我也滿有感觸啦！在此向部長報告，日本在2030年的目標期望值是6,000萬，所以我們看事情不是只看這個時刻、也不是只看明年要達到什麼目標，而是以長遠來講，應該要怎麼樣去做。譬如日本在2030年要達到6,000萬，它該做多少事，現在就應該要思考了。我們觀光署今年是786萬，明年的目標是……"],["陳部長世凱：去年是786萬。"],["許委員智傑：去年是786萬……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["許委員智傑：今年的目標是1,000萬，明年呢？2030年呢？我們有沒有目標？"],["陳部長世凱：我們有一個長期的規劃，當然也有一個目標值，但這個計畫目前還在討論當中。"],["許委員智傑：為了達成這個目標，我們要拿什麼特色吸引觀光客？譬如去日本可能會想到洗溫泉或日本很乾淨等等；譬如去泰國可能會想到要玩水，部長，如果你是外國人，最想去臺灣的哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：如果是外國人的觀點，我們討論得很多，大家對於臺灣知道的點大概就是那幾個，譬如101、譬如故宮……"],["許委員智傑：除了那幾個之外，還想到什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：大概就是101、故宮、日月潭及阿里山之類。"],["許委員智傑：除了這幾個之外，還想去哪裡？署長，臺灣除了剛才講過的幾個點，你還想去哪裡？或是還想做什麼？"],["周署長永暉：現在全球盛行主題式的旅遊，譬如有慢城、有小鎮、有……"],["許委員智傑：簡單的講，因為時間不多，我只是提出問題讓你們思考，其實回答的都差不多！我擔任主席在台上聽了這麼久，講出來的答案都差不多啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：我的意思是要用一個不一樣的想法去思考，到底要如何吸引觀光客、需要多久的時間、有什麼樣的要求嗎？因此，我的第一個想法是希望觀光署及交通部思考一下，2030年大概希望達到多少人，而不是只想到今年要多少人、明年要多少人。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個都有在規劃。"],["許委員智傑：大概希望達到多少人之後，再來就是應該如何完成，譬如臺灣比其他國家強的地方是什麼，我們要用比其他國家強的特色吸引觀光客進來，像是自然風光、像是歷史文化、像是在地特色，我們到底要用哪些點？就像部長剛才一直提到希望能有一個圖像，到底吸引人家來臺灣的圖像是什麼？之前我也向署長提過，臺灣比其他國家強的其實是美食啦！只要問去臺灣想做什麼，得到的回答就是去臺灣吃很多好吃的東西，擁有全世界各地的美食，譬如剛才提到的巧克力共和國，我倒是還滿喜歡的，應該就是類似這樣的感覺。","對於現在沒有的，我們是否能夠創造出來？譬如剛才署長提到的米其林，之前我也提出過要求，因為臺北有米其林，但是我們高雄沒有米其林，感謝署長有聽進去、有努力，現在高雄已經有好幾家米其林美食了。但我一直都是語重心長、一直都是很感慨，希望能創造出剛才部長說的圖像或署長說的主題，讓世界的人看到臺灣就會想到這個東西、就會想要來，這個問題很大，我也知道並不容易馬上就能回答，而我也只是舉個例子。其實我一直認為臺灣的美食真的能贏過全世界，所以我們在北部、中部、南部及東部要創造出什麼特色，可以和地方政府討論，中央政府可以補助，去創造一個東西出來。比如之前我也跟署長提到，對於現在臺鐵公司化，其實部長也很熟，在公司化之後，其實臺鐵有很多特色，像我之前舉例過的六都風華或是鐵道祕境，六都風華就是六個直轄市要創造什麼樣的直轄市特色，共同創造。再就針對鐵道祕境，每一個鄉間小村，每一個點都可以找到當地的在地特色，說實在的，最在地才會最國際，今天如果沒有在地特色，就很難創造出讓國際的人來觀光。所以是不是請交通部跟觀光署，假設部長有一天當院長，假設啦，假設是2030年，我給你預測這樣，不知道有沒有準。你再回來看，你今天的想法跟五年、六年之後，你現在有沒有辦法落實讓臺灣創造什麼樣的特色？","再就觀光人口，日本現在是6,000萬人次，假設臺灣2,000萬人次好了，今年是786萬人次，我設定2030年要到達2,000萬人次，要有這種魄力跟願景去做規劃，結合各個不同的部會，因為觀光署的層級不夠，要去結合各部會有困難，交通部我依交通觀光，用部的角度，和各部會、各地方政府聯繫，我們一起討論類似創造這樣的特色，臺灣有機會在2030年可以創造2,000萬的觀光人口進來，這樣的概念不知道部長可以接受嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：委員這個概念是很正確，就是我們要先設定一個目標，那在這幾年裡面要怎麼樣達成這個目標？臺灣應該呈現什麼樣的觀光印象給全球的客人？這是我們該去塑造的。確實剛剛委員有提醒一點，我們要跟各部會一起合作，坦白講，觀光署目前能做的大部分是行銷，告訴大家現在的臺灣是什麼樣子，但是臺灣要真的變得很好玩，是大家要一起努力，包含地方政府，包含各部會大家一起努力，才有辦法變得更好玩。"],["許委員智傑：是，謝謝部長。因為時間的關係……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會跟大家來討論。"],["許委員智傑：我不想超過太多時間，我最後一句話，日本2030年是6,000萬人次，我希望2030年臺灣是2,000萬人次。部長，2030年你可能還有機會在公部門，我希望那時候問你的時候可以看到成果。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會努力。"],["許委員智傑：這樣肩頭是有比較重啦，但是我覺得如果你沒有這樣的規劃和格局，以後你就做不到那個程度，那各部會該協調的，就請部長帶著觀光署怎麼樣去協調各部會，我的目標就是要達到這樣的期望值。有很多各個不同的面向都是要去努力，就是要有一個這樣的部長，帶著觀光署去協調各部會，去設定期望值，去做一個主題或是特色的創造和改變，我們才有辦法在2030年當下可以看到那樣的成果，往這個目標去努力，好不好？希望可以達成。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們努力，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：請游顥委員。"],["游委員顥：謝謝主席，有請部長及臺鐵。"],["主席：請部長及臺鐵。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好，禮拜一的時候我們有就教臺鐵的部分，延續剛才許智傑委員提到的，在促進觀光部分，那時候有提到未來能夠協助讓一些火車頭或者是讓一些鐵道的故事館，能夠在集集支線做延伸，藉由這樣來促進觀光，能夠有這樣子呈現。另外一個面向，我要就教部長，剛才也發生了地震，氣象署提到最近兩週可能會有比較大的地震，坊間很喜觀看竜樹諒、阿南德預言這些，大家也會討論有關防災救災的議題，我想要請教一下部長，目前來講，我們在交通運輸上如果有遇到這種重大的地震，目前的防災演練每年的次數大概是多少？規模跟方案是如何，是不是簡短講一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就交通體系上面來說，遇到地震影響比較大會是軌道，因為軌道的精準度要高，我們目前有設定一定的地震的值，當它到達那個值，像臺鐵也是一樣，我們會有巡軌的動作，臺鐵是五級，高鐵也有一定的水準在巡軌，巡軌完之後，怎麼樣讓它慢慢加速的運行，這個部分其實我們都有一定的機制。最近這幾個月其實遇到滿多的地震，我們也都是照這個SOP在走，平常時的演練，其實因為臺灣時常在地震，不用演練也時常在做實際的SOP操作。"],["游委員顥：我們要居安思危，我知道目前在國家防災日的時候，會配合地震時停車跟疏散旅客，來進行地震避難的演練，我在之前去日本做學術交流，他們在防災及演練的部分，其實他們的次數非常多。我想就教一下，目前臺灣的地震比較頻傳，甚至有大型地震的這種可能性，因為中央氣象署有警告過了，也有提示過了，所以有沒有可能會增加地震演練的次數跟規模？比如區域……"],["陳部長世凱：目前分區一年都各有一次。"],["游委員顥：對，一年一次，其實就是針對國家防災日的時候，相對會比較少，那個次數太少。"],["陳部長世凱：委員的提醒其實沒有錯，確實最近地震的頻繁度，以我自身的感受，頻繁度似乎是有變高了一些，這方面的演練或許我們可以再加強，我們會拜託包含臺鐵和高鐵都做這方面的演練。"],["游委員顥：對於大型地震的通報是中央氣象署的通報嗎？在臺鐵或是部長這邊有沒有辦法在第一時間收到大型的大地震的通報以及災害的狀況？因為就監測機制，臺鐵這些鐵軌的監測機制是現有的，不是平常的那種狀況。"],["陳部長世凱：其實都有感測器，它各個變電系統都有感測器，對於各地的地震狀況，他們也都有感測器。另外一方面是氣象署，像剛剛的地震，在震之前，氣象署的訊息都已經先進來了，所以這個部分其實訊息在這個時代是非常得快。"],["游委員顥：好，因為時間有限，本席還是建議增加防災演練的次數及規模，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我會安排。"],["游委員顥：另外，在賴清德總統談話之後，臺海危機是逐漸升溫，假如在戰爭時期，對於臺鐵相關的疏散，或是做戰時輸運轉運的部分有沒有任何的配套方案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我們有配合內政部的全社會防衛韌性的演練，我們各個單位都有做不一樣的演練，所有交通體系的所有的單位都有做不一樣的規劃跟演練。"],["游委員顥：有關於臺鐵的部分有演練過幾次？"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，我們每年各分區都會做一次演練。"],["游委員顥：這是戰爭時期的演練嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，我們也會跟國防部……"],["游委員顥：那是配合萬安46號的時候做演練？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，那是萬安演習，但我們各分區有各分區自己內部依照我們的災害防救要點，要辦演習。"],["游委員顥：所以在演習的時候，像臺鐵這些火車都是被徵用的嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們演習會有劇本，如果像萬安演習，各單位消防、國防等相關單位有劇本，依照劇本我們要提供的車輛跟人員，我們都會來配合。"],["游委員顥：一年演練幾次？"],["馮總經理輝昇：萬安演習是一年會擇定地點演習一次，我們自己各分區的，每一年還會依照實際的狀況，還有當年度發生的一些事件、事故，針對比較重點的項目，我們來做演練。"],["游委員顥：本席還是建議，萬安主要是針對空襲模擬、照明熄滅跟旅客疏散，其實真正要遇到這種情況的應變來講，這樣子的演練規模可能不夠，所以本席還是建議居安思危，包括在遇到這種突發狀況的時候，可能還是需要多一些演練的過程跟劇本。","另外再請教部長，你剛才有提到來臺旅遊的人數有增加，在第一季的部分，那這就跟觀光署有關，這個220萬人，你預計在第二季目標大約可以達到多少萬人？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們當然希望可以再增加更多，目前看起來第一季只有增加3%，這個部分坦白說我是覺得有點少，我們希望能夠再繼續增加更多。至於到底預測有多少？早上也有許多委員一直在問及第二季，這個變數其實蠻大，因為現在看到關稅戰，全球的經貿到底會長什麼樣的狀況，其實各國目前都還在評估，審慎評估當中，這個事情對於整個觀光的衝擊，我們也都還在觀察。"],["游委員顥：所以第二季的目標數字？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為這個變數很大，我目前沒有辦法設定目標。"],["游委員顥：如果設一個目標的話。"],["陳部長世凱：設定一個目標？"],["游委員顥：是。"],["陳部長世凱：我希望能夠比第一季再多3%，最少。"],["游委員顥：所以希望220萬再加3%，本席還是勉勵及期待。","最後，本席也反映一下，剛才許多委員有提到，目前國外行銷觀光亮點的部分，其實還是行銷過去既有的傳統景點居多，我們看日本有很多宗教的祭典及活動，也成為臺灣人去日本觀光旅遊的誘因。部長也擔任過民意代表，帝爺公生日後換慚愧祖師，還有天上聖母、觀世音菩薩，有一連串，就連我們的中元節在日本對照起來就變成盂蘭盆祭，所以本席建議，外國的觀光客來臺灣看到媽祖遶境會非常的感動，所以在觀光行銷臺灣的亮點，其實也要藉由宗教的特色，宗教的文化，能夠把一些觀光客帶進來，我覺得這個可以讓其他國外觀光客看到臺灣的觀光行銷比較耳目一新，又有其他的誘因，所以我在想這個部分是不是可以研擬一些方案，能夠藉此來提升誘因。"],["陳部長世凱：其實臺灣有很多的誘因，也有很多好玩的地方，但是過去或許我們行銷的角度都沒有放在這些地方，像委員剛剛所提醒的一些宗教活動，在日本他們就做得相當成功，或許臺灣也可以參考這樣子的案例，我們也來做這樣子的行銷。臺灣還有很多不一樣的特色，未來應該都要做出來給大家看得到。"],["游委員顥：對啊，我們期許啦，宗教也可以成為觀光誘因，像我們竹山的大士爺文化祭，確實吸引了全國的人潮，我希望這部分能夠有具體方案，再提供給本席辦公室。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["游委員顥：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：林月琴委員、林月琴委員，林月琴委員不在。","等一下黃建賓委員講完，我們休息20分，讓大家上個洗手間、吃個飯，因為後面委員太多了，都會來，所以等黃委員質詢完，我們就休息。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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其實部長心裡清楚啦也不用踩著明白裝糊塗但我今天要問的是"},{"start":28.799,"end":52.236,"text":"今天大家都問範論也就是說比如說881夠不夠以及等等但是我想大部分的中小企業也好甚至再往下到各個勞工也好最焦慮最擔心的還是跟自己的關係是什麼所以今天我們花一點點時間我們就挑一個產業來跟部長做深入的討論我想先請問部長現在我們的賴總統講說我們要以零關稅為基礎重新去談判這個零關稅有沒有包含汽車產業"},{"start":54.005,"end":74.353,"text":"我想所有的關稅總統既然宣布是由零關稅開始談起這通通包含嘛這通通包含所以包含對不對通通包含好現在我想部長你也很清楚啦現在普遍台灣的消費者我們從消費者的角度來講其實對於汽車關稅他們也是反對的嘛他們也覺得說保護國內產業幾十年好像也弄不出像樣的東西以及等等"},{"start":74.773,"end":102.788,"text":"不如讓大家有機會買便宜的進口車這樣的聲音其實你做個民調其實就知道搞不好是壓倒性的多數這是從消費者的立場來看但我請問部長那為什麼過去我們要維持對汽車產業的保護課相對比較高的關稅報告委員齁我們國內還是有國內的這個汽車產業啦那大概就業的人口有十幾萬就是一個很急速的降稅那他們可能就馬上沒有工作"},{"start":103.407,"end":119.727,"text":"沒錯嘛我想過去在這個關稅上面其實基於保護這些從業的人所以其實你是照顧國內產業跟國內就業甚至保護國內勞工的角度來做這樣的規範對不對所以跟什麼哪個品牌怎麼樣其實沒有什麼直接的關係對不對好那我今天就問這個問題"},{"start":121.289,"end":136.673,"text":"現在剛剛已經講因為賴總統的宣示基本上是所有的產業都包含在內剛剛黃國昌委員等等其實也都有提到如果你一旦降了汽車關稅其他可能要求你准用WTO的最惠國待遇也就是說他當然就一去就不回頭了那我想請問針對汽車產業的調節跟衝擊的影響評估這個"},{"start":140.894,"end":157.015,"text":"包含汽車不是只有大家都講裕隆、納智捷嘛然後都說他們很爛對不對這我們今天不做評論但是也不只啦還有中華汽車有國瑞等等他其實都是國產車的代表好或不好今天不在這裡做論斷但是這樣子的叫做汽車的整車製造就本席的了解啦這樣子的這個產業的從業人數5.2萬人"},{"start":160.078,"end":171.153,"text":"還不只是有整車製造嘛那請問部長或者是你後面下面的這些這個幕僚知不知道啊零組件的產業大概有幾家從業的人數有多少"},{"start":172.805,"end":189.068,"text":"零組件的廠商其實跟委員報告這個就是你如果是primary market可能我們有的廠商受的傷害不會很大但是我們有一個after market的廠商其實蠻強的"},{"start":190.711,"end":219.478,"text":"就有些他競爭力強有些競爭力但總體來講因為我們今天如果要討論880億處理全台灣的產業那一定是不清楚的嘛但有幾個有兩千多億的這個產值產值兩千多億至少有一點數據做基礎因為現在大家討論如果關稅降下來汽車產業會被衝擊農業會被衝擊今天應該針對這些特別被點名的產業的產業鏈的衝擊影響評估要有更詳細的報告這是我今天希望看到的我們是有報告齁如果這個需要的話我們今天下午就可以送給今天下午OK"},{"start":219.958,"end":240.03,"text":"就本席目前的了解啦好 目前的了解全台灣的這樣子的國內的汽車產業鏈喔這個整車製造我剛剛講過了從業人數5.2萬人佔整體汽車產業就業人口17.3%零組件供應有超過2000家的各式各樣零組件的廠商它當然有些強勢 有些弱勢但他們的共同身份是什麼中小企業嘛"},{"start":240.41,"end":257.121,"text":"你今天討論我們難道不需要針對特定的業別做更多的調查嗎這樣子的一些從業人你剛剛講產值2000億從業人數就本行現有的資料啦你官方有更精準的資料沒有關係從業人數24.8萬人佔整體汽車產業直接佔就業人口82.7%加起來整車製造跟零組件上下游加起來大概總共有30萬的就業人口可能會因為汽車關稅的鬆綁受到一定的衝擊我現在請問經濟部"},{"start":269.581,"end":291.346,"text":"詳細的數據比如說這兩千多家或八萬整車製造他們會掉多少單有沒有哪些產業被衝擊到會直接有裁員或者是無薪假的狀況你們現在有沒有掌握報告委員我想我們現在就是說有做一些這個情境的分析那台灣也不會因為說這個零關稅以後進口車大家都來買進口車然後這個國內車我想我們會幫助國內這些廠商來做轉型"},{"start":298.055,"end":320.06,"text":"即使今天因為時間有限啊但因為沒關係後面還有專案報告我們都還有總諮詢但我希望經濟部做好準備啦特別針對幾個已經被擺上檯面的產業你總要有詳細的數據嘛我們才會知道說這881要怎麼下它是單純的補貼還是怎麼樣因為你881只是講大方向沒有意思嘛我本席最關心的不外乎就是掉多少單有沒有人會失業啊"},{"start":320.66,"end":340.993,"text":"我們有多少人因為這樣失去工作或是要放無薪假請問你政府的錢有沒有到這些人的口袋裡去減輕衝擊嘛你如果對各產業鏈的分析不夠了解的時候你當然就我們就無從知道這881下的有沒有價值或者是需不需要增加所以我至少我們今天很有意義因為部長講這個今天下午我們就會拿到汽車產業鏈的相關的衝擊分析報告對不對我再確認一次"},{"start":342.352,"end":353.682,"text":"好不好 那就麻煩經濟部提供資料不只是汽車啦 我也提醒其他相關的 電子零組件 農產品等等都要有分門別類的報告而且盡量要讓立法委員來參考要公開透明好不好"},{"start":356.713,"end":379.428,"text":"好 農業部獨立啦 沒關係但你經濟部所有的對 各條產業鏈好不好農業部也應該要有啦但沒關係今天這個就不為難你就是今天的這個我們有做了一份報告你就把相關的報告就送交而且這位知道其實在你禮拜五的這個說明的時候他其實越詳細越好這樣大家在未來在審查這個預算要不要放行的時候你也會有更多的說明的依據可以嗎謝謝委員好 謝謝部長好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1241,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時46分）謝謝主席，郭部長有請。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。大家都關心美國關稅大刀一下來造成的衝擊，剛剛那個奇奇怪怪的公式，講白了，就是美國用他的貿易逆差去算嘛，對不對？其實部長你心裡清楚啦，也不用揣著明白裝糊塗。","我今天要問的是，今天大家都問泛論，也就是說880億元夠不夠等等，但是我想大部分的中小企業，甚至往下到各個勞工，最焦慮、最擔心的還是跟自己的關係是什麼嘛。所以今天我們花一點點時間，就挑一個產業來跟部長做深入的討論。我想先請問部長，現在賴總統說我們要以零關稅為基礎重新去談判，這個零關稅有沒有包含汽車產業？"],["郭部長智輝：我想所有的關稅，總統既然宣布是由零關稅開始談起……"],["牛委員煦庭：就通通包含嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：是通通包含。"],["牛委員煦庭：就通通包含，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：通通包含。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我想部長也很清楚，我們從消費者的角度來講，其實現在臺灣的消費者普遍對汽車關稅也是反對的嘛。他們也覺得保護國內產業幾十年，好像也弄不出像樣的東西等等，不如讓大家有機會買便宜的進口車。這樣的聲音，其實你做個民調就知道，搞不好是壓倒性的多數，這是從消費者的立場來看。但我請問部長，為什麼過去我們要維持對汽車產業的保護，課相對比較高的關稅？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，國內還是有國內的汽車產業，就業人口大概有十幾萬人，一旦很急速的降稅，那他們可能就馬上沒有工作。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯！"],["郭部長智輝：我想過去在關稅上面其實是基於保護這些從業人員。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦，其實你是以照顧國內產業跟國內就業，甚至保護國內勞工的角度來做這樣的規範，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以跟哪個品牌怎麼樣，其實沒有什麼直接的關係，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我今天就問這個問題。剛剛已經講因為賴總統的宣示，基本上是所有的產業都包含在內，剛剛黃國昌委員等等其實也都有提到，一旦降了汽車關稅，其他國家可能要求準用WTO的最惠國待遇，那當然一去就不回頭了。我想請問，針對汽車產業的調節跟衝擊的影響評估，國內汽車不是只有大家講的裕隆納智捷，然後都說他們很爛，對不對？這點我們今天不評論，但是也不只裕隆，還有中華汽車、國瑞等等，都是國產車的代表，好或不好，今天不在這裡論斷。但是這樣的汽車整車製造，就本席的了解，這個產業的從業人數5.2萬人。還不只有整車製造，請問部長或者是你後面的幕僚知不知道零組件的產業大概有幾家？從業的人數有多少？"],["郭部長智輝：其實零組件的廠商，跟委員報告，如果是primary market，可能有的廠商受的傷害不會很大，但是我們有一個aftermarket的廠商，其實蠻強的。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是說有些競爭力強，有些競爭力弱。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是總體來講，我們今天如果要討論880億元處理全臺灣的產業，那一定是不清楚的，但有幾個，你要……"],["郭部長智輝：有二千多億元的產值。"],["牛委員煦庭：產值二千多億元，好，至少有一點數據做基礎，因為現在大家討論如果關稅降價，汽車產業會被衝擊，農業也會被衝擊。其實針對這些特別被點名的產業的產業鏈所受衝擊影響評估，你應該要有更詳細的報告，這是我今天希望看到的。"],["郭部長智輝：我們有報告，如果需要的話，我們今天下午就可以送給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天下午，OK。"],["郭部長智輝：我們整個都有資料的。"],["牛委員煦庭：就本席的了解，目前全臺灣國內的汽車產業鏈，整車製造我剛剛講過了，從業人數5.2萬人，占整體汽車產業就業人口的17.3%；零組件供應鏈有超過2,000家各式各樣的零組件廠商，當然有些強勢，有些弱勢，但他們的共同身分是什麼？中小企業嘛。我們今天討論，難道不需要針對特定的業別做更多的調查嗎？","這些從業人員，你剛剛講產值2,000億元，就本席現有的資料，你官方有更精準的資料，沒有關係喔，從業人數24.8萬人，占整體汽車產業就業人口82.7%，整車製造跟零組件上下游加起來大概總共有30萬的就業人口，可能會因為汽車關稅的鬆綁而受到營運衝擊。我現在請問經濟部詳細的數據，比如說這兩千多家包含整車製造，他們會掉多少單？有沒有哪些產業被衝擊到會直接裁員或放無薪假？你們現在有沒有掌握？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們現在就是有做一些情境的分析，臺灣也不會因為零關稅以後，大家都買進口車，我們會幫助國內的這些廠商轉型。"],["牛委員煦庭：今日因為時間有限，但沒關係，後面還有專案報告，還有總質詢，但我希望經濟部做好準備。特別針對幾個已經被擺上檯面的產業，你總要有詳細的數據，我們才會知道這880億元要怎麼下，是單純的補貼，還是怎麼樣。因為880億元只是講大方向，沒有意思嘛。本席最關心的不外乎就是掉多少單，有沒有人會失業，有多少人會因為這樣失去工作？或是要放無薪假？請問政府的錢有沒有到這些人的口袋裡？去減輕衝擊嘛！如果對各產業鏈的分析不夠了解的時候，我們就無從知道這880億元下得有沒有價值，或者需不需要增加。至少今天很有意義，因為部長講今天下午我們就會拿到汽車產業鏈的相關衝擊分析報告，對不對？我再確認一次，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們本來就有做了。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就麻煩經濟部提供資料，不只是汽車，我也提醒，其他相關的零組件、農產品等等……"],["郭部長智輝：其他都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：都要有分門別類的報告，而且儘量讓立法委員參考。"],["郭部長智輝：對不起，委員，農產品不在我的管轄。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，農業部獨立，沒關係，但經濟部所有的……"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的我會送給你。"],["牛委員煦庭：經濟部的各條產業鏈，好不好？農業部也應該要有，但沒關係，今天就不為難你。"],["郭部長智輝：我們其實是有一份，今天有作了一份報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你就把相關的報告送交委員會，而且在你禮拜五說明的時候越詳細越好。"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：未來大家審查這個預算要不要放行的時候，你也會有更多說明的依據，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請林倩綺委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長郭部長委員好部長好那個川普政府對台灣客家的32%的高關稅生效了沒有"},{"start":25.6,"end":48.497,"text":"川普政府對我國的產品客家的32%的高關稅生效了沒有從現在12點今天的12點開始生效對嘛我剛剛在下面聽有委員問你說要爭取要延緩生效你還說你會盡量努力我坐在下面聽完完全聽不懂現在就已經生效了第二個我們目前針對有關於這個高關稅產業衝擊影響評估做好沒有"},{"start":53.462,"end":69.799,"text":"我們有做了已經做好了嗎什麼時候可以提供給所有的委員影響評估我們都有評估對可能衝擊的產業做法因為我們到現在拿不到我們的網站都有公告公告在網站上面"},{"start":71.397,"end":94.236,"text":"我們具體的行政院的部分要14號才會出來14號才會出來經濟部這樣講好了行政院的部分14號才會出來院長禮拜五就要來這邊報告了我們那天去行政院開會的時候我跟院長要衝擊影響評估他們說做好了我請他們提供到現在也沒拿到"},{"start":95.854,"end":108.128,"text":"所以就經濟部的部分已經先做好了是嗎那惠後部長可以提供嗎惠後部長可以提供嗎好那就請今天惠後部長提供我們進一步談針對賴總統所主張的零關稅經濟部的立場怎麼樣在不贊成"},{"start":113.908,"end":132.244,"text":"零關稅開始談判不是零關稅支持不支持這個由我們的談判小組他們去處理所以這個由談判小組來決定而不是由經濟部這邊經濟部是提供資訊讓整體的在政策的立場上面從零關稅開始談 部長您贊不贊成零關稅"},{"start":136.543,"end":153.442,"text":"開始談當然贊成當然贊成嘛那如果跟美國針對有關於從零關稅開始談的這件事情你認為台灣政府應該表達的形式是什麼所以表達的形式是我們主動把關稅降下來還是要簽自由貿易協定"},{"start":154.485,"end":181.433,"text":"我們當然是以自由貿易協定為我們前提啦機率高不高我們沒有辦法判斷沒有辦法判斷嘛好那我們先澄清一個問題假設如果不是簽BTA的話假設啦如果不是簽BTA的話我們把關稅對美國的部分把它降下來了其他國家是不是要一體適用這個部分我們談判不會朝這個WTO的這個條款去談"},{"start":182.779,"end":189.309,"text":"我們該跟美國談這個就是台美之間的這個決定是啊是啊那個部長那個WTO相關的規範你應該還熟吧"},{"start":191.195,"end":220.455,"text":"還好嘛對嘛 好那如果沒有BTA的話我們對美國降關稅對其他國家其他國家主張用最惠國待遇原則要怎麼辦不會啊我們這次談判應該是不朝那個方向那個是我們跟美國談嘛跟其他國家根本沒有在談這件事嘛我們談判的單位不可能說以傷害國內的這個權益為止當然我了解是 所以嘛我才一直強調嘛為什麼我們在跟美國談的時候希望能夠爭取到BTA嘛"},{"start":221.376,"end":230.958,"text":"你如果沒有爭取到BTA的話在WTO的架構下那不就是有最惠國待遇原則嗎我講的應該沒有錯啊這個是很基本的事情啊"},{"start":232.615,"end":257.498,"text":"現在我擔心的就是什麼我並沒有說委員你是錯的對啦我們還是回到問題的基點嘛如果沒有簽到BTA我們對美國降關稅其他國家不能援引嗎其他國家會援引啊那個衝擊影響啊是遠遠超乎現在我們在政府所估算的範圍行政院所提供給委員們的那份報告您看過沒有"},{"start":259.312,"end":281.17,"text":"您看過沒有我不是委員所以我沒有看過所以行政院在提那個報告給委員的時候你也沒有參與我不是委員啊所以我不會收到不是啊那是行政院出來的報告啊那個是行政院出來的報告你是經濟部部長你還不熟喔我是經濟部部長所以我只熟經濟部的部分所以就經濟部的部分提供給委員的部分你看過沒有"},{"start":282.625,"end":294.905,"text":"我們送出去給行政院的報告我當然看過啦但行政院送什麼給我們你不清楚就對了行政院調整過他會調整嘛是所以那一部分我沒有看沒關係啊我不是委員嘛所以我看不到部長"},{"start":295.765,"end":324.814,"text":"你趕快看啊星期五的時候你就要陪院長啊到這邊啊來進行報告了我給你善意啊的提醒第二個部分啊針對美國貿易代表署啊在計算關稅的這個公式你看過了嗎我知道你知道嗎你贊不贊成這個公式這個我我贊不贊成我當然是不是不贊成啊你覺得這個公式有什麼問題這個公式當然我不是數學家啦所以我沒有辦法回答你這個問題"},{"start":325.936,"end":353.408,"text":"不是啊 可是你剛剛已經說你不贊成啦我不贊成不代表我懂所以這個公式你也看不懂嗎這個公式我就是看不懂所以不贊成OK 好非常好喔過去啊 這段時間啊你的反應啊可能下面有些人會覺得很有趣但我覺得蠻嚴肅的為什麼蠻嚴肅的因為連川普總統啊自己的支持者一個大企業家他也說他看不懂"},{"start":354.346,"end":379.098,"text":"他完全看不懂這個公式代表的是什麼這也是為什麼我們行政院第一時間會說這個公式不合理嘛要不然我們的行政院院長怎麼會出來說這個公式不合理怎麼會課台灣這麼高的關稅那這個對我國接下來跟美國之間的談判非常的重要啊因為如果美國貿易代表署把這個公式寫在他們的官方文件上面就是我們所看到的這個嘛"},{"start":380.407,"end":403.534,"text":"就我們所看到的這一個它已經寫在官方文件上啦所以它重要的兩個係數一個是ε一個是φ就是在那個數學的公式上啦但是剛剛部長你也說了嘛這個公式你不是很熟那沒有關係我就不要跟部長進一步討論啦接下來在美國經濟學界對這個公式討論大家所舉出來的問題"},{"start":404.934,"end":433.356,"text":"時間的關係我最後只問一件事情剛剛有委員提到台灣遭受到美國關切的是不是有台灣的廠商在幫忙洗產地部長這個部分你有掌握嗎我們有掌握你們有掌握不允許這些廠商來台灣洗廠地絕對不允許嗎不允許OK好那個時間的關係我最後只提醒一件事情那個國發會的主委您坐在下面嗎"},{"start":437.58,"end":466.411,"text":"是不是可以請主委齁是不是可以請主委其他的不肖廠商做這種事情我們沒辦法容忍嘛但我們國發基金所投資的公司絕對不應該做這種事情主委贊不贊成呃我贊成你贊成嘛好主委我們會來清查清查清查喔國發基金投資的公司有沒有在幫中國的廠商洗產地國發基金清查需要多久"},{"start":468.462,"end":484.985,"text":"國發基金我們會發文出去然後看廠商的一個禮拜之內請他們回覆好不好可以可以請所有國發基金投資的公司切解喔有沒有在幫中國產品洗產地請他們一個禮拜之後回覆把答案提供給所有委員好不好好的好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1150,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時37分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。川普政府對臺灣課32%的高關稅生效了沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["黃委員國昌：川普政府對我國的產品課32%的高關稅生效了沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：從今天12點開始生效。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。我剛剛在下面聽，還有委員問你說要爭取延緩生效，你還說你會儘量努力，我坐在下面聽，我完全聽不懂，現在就已經生效了啊！","第二個，我們目前針對有關於這個高關稅的產業衝擊影響評估做好沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有做了。"],["黃委員國昌：你已經做好了嘛。什麼時候可以提供給所有的委員？"],["郭部長智輝：影響評估我們都有，評估可能衝擊的產業與作法……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以提供？因為我們到現在拿不到啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我們的網站都有公告。"],["黃委員國昌：公告在網站上面？"],["郭部長智輝：具體的行政院的部分要14日才會出來，但是經濟部……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，行政院的部分14日才會出來，院長禮拜五就要來這邊報告了，我們那一天去行政院開會的時候，我跟院長要衝擊影響評估，他們說做好了，我請他們提供，到現在還沒拿到，所以就經濟部的部分已經先做好了，是嗎？那會後部長可以提供嗎？會後部長可以提供嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以啊。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那就請部長今天會後提供。"],["郭部長智輝：你要看，我現在可以給你。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們進一步談，針對賴總統所主張的零關稅，經濟部的立場怎麼樣？贊不贊成？"],["郭部長智輝：從零關稅開始談判。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["郭部長智輝：不是零關稅啦。支持不支持這個由我們的談判小組他們去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個由談判小組來決定，而不是由經濟部這邊？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部是提供資訊，讓整體的……"],["黃委員國昌：在政策的立場上，從零關稅開始談，部長您贊不贊成？"],["郭部長智輝：零關稅開始談，當然贊成啊。"],["黃委員國昌：當然贊成嘛。好，針對跟美國從零關稅開始談的這件事情，你認為臺灣政府應該表達的形式是什麼？所謂表達的形式，是我們主動把關稅降下來，還是要簽自由貿易協定？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是以自由貿易協定為前提。"],["黃委員國昌：機率高不高？機率高不高？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有辦法判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有辦法判斷。那好，我們先澄清一個問題。假設如果不是簽BTA的話，假設啦，如果不是簽BTA，我們把對美國的關稅降下來，其他國家是不是要一體適用？"],["郭部長智輝：關於這個部分，我們談判不會朝WTO的條款去談，我們跟美國談的是臺美之間的貿易協定。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊、是啊。部長，WTO相關的規範，你應該還熟吧。"],["郭部長智輝：還好。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。如果沒有BTA的話，我們對美國降關稅，其他國家主張用最惠國待遇原則，要怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：不會啦，我們這次談判應該不朝那個方向。"],["黃委員國昌：那是我們跟美國談嘛，跟其他國家根本沒有在談這件事嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們談判的單位不可能以傷害國內的權益為主題。"],["黃委員國昌：當然，我了解，是，所以嘛，我才一直強調，為什麼我們在跟美國談的時候，希望能夠爭取到BTA，你如果沒有爭取到BTA，在WTO的架構下，那不就是有最惠國待遇原則嗎？我講的應該沒有錯啊，這個是很基本的事情。現在我擔心的就是什麼……"],["郭部長智輝：我並沒有說委員是錯的。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！我們還是回到問題的基點，如果沒有簽到BTA，我們對美國降關稅，其他國家不能援引嗎？其他國家會援引啊！那個衝擊的影響遠遠超乎現在我們政府所估算的範圍。行政院提供給委員們的那份報告，您看過沒有？您看過沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是委員，所以我沒有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：所以行政院在提那份報告給委員的時候，你也沒有參與？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是委員啊，所以我不會收到那份報告。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊，那是行政院出來的報告，那個是行政院出來的報告，你是經濟部部長，你還不熟喔？"],["郭部長智輝：我是經濟部部長，所以我只熟經濟部的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：所以就經濟部提供給委員的部分，你看過沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們送出去給行政院的報告，我當然看過。"],["黃委員國昌：但行政院送什麼給我們，你不清楚就對了。"],["郭部長智輝：行政院調整過，他會調整嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["郭部長智輝：所以那部分我沒有看嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我不是委員，所以我看不到。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你趕快看！星期五的時候，你就要陪院長到這邊來進行報告了，我給您善意的提醒。","第二個部分，針對美國貿易代表署計算關稅的公式，你看過了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我知道。"],["黃委員國昌：你知道，你贊不贊成這個公式？"],["郭部長智輝：這個問我贊不贊成，我當然是不贊成啊。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得這個公式有什麼問題？"],["郭部長智輝：這個公式，當然我不是數學家啦，所以我沒有辦法回答你這個問題。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊，可是你剛剛已經說你不贊成了。"],["郭部長智輝：我不贊成，不代表我懂。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個公式你也看不懂嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：這個公式我就是看不懂，所以不贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，非常好！過去這段時間你的反應，可能下面有些人會覺得很有趣，但我覺得蠻嚴肅的，為什麼蠻嚴肅的？因為連川普總統自己的支持者，一個大企業家，他也說他看不懂，他完全看不懂這個公式代表的是什麼。這也是為什麼我們行政院第一時間會說這個公式不合理，要不然行政院院長怎麼會出來說這個公式不合理，怎麼會課臺灣這麼高的關稅。","這對我國接下來跟美國之間的談判非常的重要，因為如果美國貿易代表署把這個公式寫在他們的官方文件上，就是我們所看到的這一個。我們所看到的這一個，已經寫在官方文件上了，其中重要的兩個係數，一個是ε，一個是φ，就在那個數學公式上。但是剛剛部長也說了嘛，這個公式你不是很熟，沒有關係，我就不要跟部長進一步討論接下來美國經濟學界討論這個公式，大家所舉出來的問題。","時間的關係，我最後只問一件事情。剛剛有委員提到臺灣遭受到美國關切，是不是有臺灣的廠商在幫忙洗產地。部長，這個部分你有掌握嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有掌握。"],["黃委員國昌：你們有掌握？"],["郭部長智輝：我們也不允許這些廠商來臺灣洗產地。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不允許嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：不允許。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。","時間的關係，我最後只提醒一件事情，國發會的主委，您坐在下面嘛，是不是可以請主委？其他的不肖廠商做這種事情，我們沒辦法容忍，國發基金所投資的公司絕對不應該做這種事情，主委贊不贊成？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：你贊成嘛。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會來清查。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，清查！清查國發基金投資的公司有沒有在幫中國的廠商洗產地，國發基金清查需要多久？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會發文出去，然後看廠商的回復。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內請他們回復，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以、可以。"],["黃委員國昌：請所有國發基金投資的公司切結喔，有沒有在幫中國產品洗產地，請他們一個禮拜之後回復，把答案提供給所有委員，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請牛煦庭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這意思是說這個支出是在業務上面支出只是他不應該用救安基金也就是他應該用公務預算所以等於有點像是公務預算的範疇要編回還給救安基金"},{"start":170.709,"end":189.5,"text":"它是一個還的概念我知道因為就歸店的字面上意思來看也知道是還我現在只是說在預算法上的依據是什麼我不是很清楚你們勞動部有誰可以回答"},{"start":190.501,"end":207.887,"text":"然後你們可能會要怎麼要編列在什麼預算科目這個算是新增的預算跟姚委員說明第一個是我們確實勞務部行政部門我們還是必須依照審計的結果來去做辦理跟相關的規範來去辦理"},{"start":209.528,"end":238.413,"text":"那但是這個編列供預算規定是我們認為可以做的做法之一但我們知道現在外界會覺得好像這是不是會是用全民的稅金等等的測看法但詳細具體的做法我們會再跟行政院跟審計來討論我現在還沒有討論到是不是會用全民的稅金我現在是來講一個預算上的東西就是說規定它本身是預算法裡面"},{"start":240.194,"end":261,"text":"規定的報告委員因為根據我們這次我們部裡面就業安定基金這個5年的這個支出因為審計部審核的結果是修正減劣收回所以依照這樣子的一個審定的結果我們的做法就是說"},{"start":262.28,"end":281.986,"text":"就是代表說這個基金的用途可能審計的看法是覺得這個關聯性不高那是相對來講的話我們基金要收回來的話那就是過去的做法是有這樣子的例子就是說可能還是要從公務預算來撥補這是另外增編這個預算來處理"},{"start":284.006,"end":300.938,"text":"這是一個過去可能可以處理的方向那我這邊有提供一個例子是過去曾經我們的就業安定基金在民國90幾年的時候有內政部某一個計畫那那個計畫是就是屬於這個當時是"},{"start":305.24,"end":323.83,"text":"請向我們救安基金來申請補助這個失能老人跟身心障礙補助使用居家服務的計畫那我們當年度這個計畫有來申請我們救安基金的補助但是這個經過審計部的審核結果也是認為說應該要修正簡列所以後來這一筆一億多的這個申請補助就"},{"start":333.48,"end":345.395,"text":"在當年度就被修正了那後來內政部在後面的年度他有編了這筆預算來還給我們救安基金這是過去有的例子"},{"start":348.719,"end":363.321,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告你們是配合內政部的活動嗎所以是內政部編給你們剛剛有跟委員報告這個案例是內政部來申請救安基金的補助"},{"start":363.982,"end":389.741,"text":"的案例那也曾經發生過審計部審核的結果是認為說可能跟基金的用途關聯性不高所以當年的審計的審定的結果是要修正跟我們的這個案件是相同的錢必須要還給救安基金這個是是沒有問題的只是說在預算上"},{"start":391.505,"end":410.709,"text":"所以有過前例是這樣子就對了有過類似的案例好那我再問就是說就業安定基金的使用項目上面現在就是有幾個項目是被認定"},{"start":418.669,"end":431.814,"text":"跟基金支出用途關聯性不高其中呢其中有紅包袋有紅包袋春聯紙圖筒那就我所知春聯就是紙寫紙寫了"},{"start":445.612,"end":469.77,"text":"部長的名字紅包袋也只寫了部長的名字這個我的認定就不是關聯性不高而已這個是沒有關聯性部長你聽懂我的意思嗎我可以理解楊委員的意思那當然關聯性不高這是審計部給判定但是我就說這些相關的做法"},{"start":470.987,"end":494.276,"text":"如果是我的話 我不會這樣做我知道我知道所以我並不是想並沒有要為難你的意思我現在的意思是說像這個你們有沒有可能檢討看看有沒有不當得力的問題如果有不當得力或者是違法營私的話目前檢調正在辦"},{"start":496.327,"end":522.35,"text":"可是不當得利是公法上的民事關係對但是我說這部分你們並不一定你們並不一定要這個跟刑事案件是兩回事懂我的意思嗎跟我的說明剛剛像講這些我們這些包括春聯等等等目前我們已經很清楚明定救安基金未來就是不能夠做這些事情了不是我是說過去的這一件"},{"start":524.195,"end":550.403,"text":"你們會不會考慮做不當得力 民事上因為部長剛剛有講嘛形勢上的問題已經是檢調在做處理這個我們不置評現在是說看起來紅包袋只寫部長的名字沒有任何跟勞工就業"},{"start":552,"end":579.038,"text":"勞工權益勞工福祉有關的東西這個我的認定這個是有不當得理的就我想跟姚元說明這些紅包袋或者是春聯他其實比較他也是發給勞工朋友的不是他是發給勞工朋友但是他的用途可能是比方說會辦一些活動的時候他發這些紅包袋他作為比較能夠去吸引這些勞工朋友來參與相關的活動當時他去"},{"start":582.841,"end":595.713,"text":"設計這些紅包袋的用意是這樣也就是說可能我們辦了一些活動那你發送這些相關的文宣品比較能夠去吸引勞工朋友願意再來多參與當時他的用意是這樣子"},{"start":597.435,"end":624.727,"text":"部長我這樣子講啦就是說我其實是想要問一下你們的態度啦因為我向來不是很喜歡去追究離職的人也不想要為難不是造成結果的現任者的人"},{"start":626.195,"end":644.118,"text":"只是說我自己的認定我並不覺得說辦活動然後的文宣品上面辦活動本身 趙部長的講法是跟勞工福祉有關文宣品上面"},{"start":645.632,"end":675.112,"text":"全部就都沒有這個是可以的啦這是我個人的看法懂我意思齁我知道姜委員的意思對啦那我最後還是還是要講啦這個就是從許民村部長在任的時候我一直在講我在審基金預算的時候也講過啦我覺得就業安定基金的收支保管和運用辦法"},{"start":676.492,"end":704.56,"text":"裡面第五條裡面講的辦理提升勞工福祉事項我覺得這個這個規定這麼籠統的規定假如你們不想辦法把它具體化我相信洪志安部長在任的時候不會有問題啦不過法規不夠不夠明確就是會因人"},{"start":707.125,"end":710.747,"text":"因為誰當部長而有變化啦"},{"start":738.206,"end":761.925,"text":"救安定基金的時候保障勞工權益的時候綁手綁腳啦我們也不希望這樣子啦就是該應該要用就用可是一定要用在勞工的所以這也是為什麼我覺得應該把規範給規範清楚在這個縣內就是大家可以安心的使用才不會用的心驚膽顫這也是我們希望把規範規範得更清楚的原因好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1299,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時14分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。上個禮拜勞動部有發布新聞稿，針對審計部查核109年度到113年度就業安定基金經費支出情形的審查結果，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：其中認為就業安定基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作、臉書粉絲團經營、喬遷活動、春節紅包袋、三節禮品等各項支出和就業安定基金支出的用途關聯性不高，屬於公務預算支出的範疇應該要收回。部長，對於這樣的報告有對外說明勞動部預計要分幾年來歸墊，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：因為審計報告最後的審查結果是判定修正、減列、要追回。從過去如果判定修正減列的話，就是不該使用就業安定基金，因為這些業務有執行之需要時，應該回到公務預算去處理，所以編列公務預算來歸墊，是過去如果被判定修正減列的作法之一。"],["楊委員曜：以前有過例子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["楊委員曜：歸墊，因為我……"],["洪部長申翰：編列公務預算歸墊是過去會有的作法。"],["楊委員曜：你這邊有什麼例子嗎？因為歸墊的話，我覺得怪。撥補是事先從公務預算把錢給基金，這個是事先；基金已經先不合目的使用，再編列預算，那你預算科目要編在哪？"],["洪部長申翰：其實某部分的意思是說，在業務上面的支出，不應該用就業安定基金，應該用在公務預算，所以等於像是公務預算的範疇要編還給就業安定基金，它是一個「還」的概念。"],["楊委員曜：我知道，因為就歸墊字面上的意思也知道是「還」，我現在只是說預算法的依據是什麼？我不是很清楚，勞動部有誰可以回答你們要編列在什麼預算科目？這算是新增的預算。"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，第一個，勞動部行政部門確實還是必須依照審計的結果跟相關的規範去辦理，編列公務預算歸墊是我們認為可行的作法之一，但我們知道現在外界會覺得會不會用全民的稅金等等這類的看法，但詳細、具體的作法我們會再跟行政院、審計來討論。"],["楊委員曜：不是，我現在還沒有討論到是不是會用全民的稅金，我現在是在講預算上，就是歸墊本身是預算法規定的……"],["林處長美杏：報告委員，因為這次部裡面就業安定基金這五年的支出，根據審計部審核的結果是修正、減列、收回，所以依照這樣的審定結果，代表基金的用途在審計的看法可能是覺得關聯性不高，相對來講，我們基金要收回來的話，過去的作法是有這樣的例子，就是另外增編公務預算來撥補，這是過去可能可以處理的方向。我這邊有提供一個例子，過去曾經在民國九十幾年的時候，內政部某一個計畫來向就業安定基金申請補助，係關於失能老人跟身心障礙補助使用居家服務的計畫，當年度這個計畫有來申請就業安定基金的補助，但是經過審計部的審核結果也是認為說應該要修正、減列，所以後來這筆一億多的申請補助在當年度就被修正了，而內政部在後年度有編這筆預算來還給就安基金，這是過去有的例子。"],["楊委員曜：內政部嘛，對不對？"],["林處長美杏：對，我剛剛跟委員報告，它也是回編公務預算……"],["楊委員曜：因為你們是配合內政部的活動，所以是內政部編給你們的。"],["林處長美杏：不是，我剛剛有跟委員報告，這個案例是內政部申請就安基金補助的案例，也是曾經發生過審計部審核的結果認為可能跟基金的用途關聯性不高，所以當年審計的審定結果是要修正減列，跟我們的這個案子是雷同的。"],["楊委員曜：當然錢必須要還給就安基金，這個是沒有問題的。"],["林處長美杏：是。"],["楊委員曜：只是在預算上……所以有過前例是這樣子，對不對？"],["林處長美杏：是，有過類似的案例。"],["楊委員曜：好。那我再問，就業安定基金的使用項目上，現在有幾個項目被認定跟基金支出用途關聯性不高，其中有紅包袋、春聯、紙圖筒，就我所知春聯只寫了部長的名字、紅包袋也只寫了部長的名字，我的認定就不是關聯性不高而已，這是沒有關聯性，部長，你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我可以理解楊委員的意思，當然關聯性不高這是審計部給的判定，但是這些相關的做法，如果是我的話，我不會這樣做。"],["楊委員曜：我知道、我知道，所以我並沒有要為難你的意思，我現在的意思是你們有沒有可能檢討看看有沒有不當得利的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：如果有不當得利或者是違法營私的話，目前檢調跟司法正在辦。"],["楊委員曜：對，可是不當得利是公法上的民事關係。"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是我說這部分……"],["楊委員曜：你們並不一定要……這個跟刑事案件是兩回事，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，像剛剛講的這些包括春聯等等，目前我們已經很清楚明訂就安基金未來就是不能做這些事情。"],["楊委員曜：不是，我是說這一件你們會不會考慮到不當得利？在民事上，因為部長剛剛有講，刑事上的問題已經由檢調在做處理，這個我們不予置評。現在是看起來紅包袋只寫部長的名字，沒有任何跟勞工就業、勞工權益、勞工福祉有關的東西，我認定是有不當得利的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，這些紅包袋或春聯其實也是發給勞工朋友……"],["楊委員曜：不是……"],["洪部長申翰：他是發給勞工朋友，他的用途可能比方辦一些活動的時候發這些紅包袋，比較能夠去吸引勞工朋友來參與相關的活動，當時他去設計這些紅包袋的用意是這樣，也就是可能我們辦了一些活動，發送這些相關的文宣品比較能夠吸引勞工朋友願意再來多參與，當時他的用意是這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我其實是想要問你們的態度，因為我向來不是很喜歡去追究離職的人，也不想要為難不是造成結果的現任者，只是我自己認定不覺得辦活動的文宣品上面……辦活動本身，照部長的講法是跟勞工福祉有關。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：文宣品上面全部就都沒有，這個是可以的啦，這是我個人的看法，懂我意思？"],["洪部長申翰：我知道楊委員的意思。"],["楊委員曜：對啦！我最後還是要講，從許銘春部長在任的時候我就一直在講，我在審基金預算的時候也講過，我覺得就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法第五條裡面辦理提升勞工福祉事項，我覺得這麼籠統的規定，假如你們不想辦法把它具體化，我相信洪申翰部長在任的時候不會有問題，不過法規不夠明確就是會因為誰當部長而有變化，懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟楊委員說明，關於就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法我們正在修訂中，我們現在把第十二款拿掉以外，其他款也希望能夠讓它更加的明確，目前其實也在修訂中。"],["楊委員曜：對，要更加明確，我們也不會希望勞動部因為這個事件，而在支用就業安定基金來保障勞工權益的時候綁手綁腳，我們也不希望這樣子。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["楊委員曜：應該要用就用，可是一定要用在勞工身上。"],["洪部長申翰：所以這也是為什麼我覺得應該把規定給規範清楚，在這個線內大家可以安心的使用，而不會用的心驚膽戰，這也是我們希望把規定規範得更清楚的原因。"],["楊委員曜：對。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"160022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce92d0f51bbda077eba9dd72f8e909e22303873e74607c39c2a54079fb70ee7d1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:35:06 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這不是謠言 這是真的所以這個預算編在哪裡這個編在這個我們勞動平等勞動條件集就會平等的相關的預算裡面那今年編多少 編多少錢8500萬好 那獎補助費有三減還是凍結有凍結有三減也有凍結 哪一筆"},{"start":81.929,"end":96.721,"text":"沒有刪也沒凍檢啊委員有哪一筆啊 你講委員 刪檢被刪了八百凍檢應該凍了一千九 大概兩千我看到這邊資料怎麼只有六百勒委員你的資料不是很正確"},{"start":98.175,"end":105.203,"text":"三減 院會三減的部分是啥2185三減 三減了800凍結凍了將近2000所以一定會影響到賠產減價相關的薪資補貼這是為什麼會影響到新手爸媽的權利的原因"},{"start":117.236,"end":129.701,"text":"所以我們勞動條件及就業平等師業務一共編了9714萬元那我這邊資料是你是講統三的部分嗎就是這一項裡面被刪了800萬跟被凍結了2000萬左右但是裡面有8500多萬就是用在產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補貼所以一定會影響到的"},{"start":149.508,"end":159.511,"text":"所以影響多少 這樣影響會多少在下半年我們相關的這些津貼的合法商一定會影響到的在下半年 那前半年不會"},{"start":164.147,"end":191.905,"text":"我們其實當然希望都不要影響到新手爸媽的權益但是很遺憾的是就是會影響到你們有為這個事情提出來了嗎有沒有提出這個意見你們的意見我們在之前其實就已經要提出來說這筆預算是關乎新手爸媽的權益可是現在就是會影響到了所以我沒有在造謠這是真的會發生的事情那你趕快提出來啊"},{"start":195.082,"end":211.275,"text":"你不要在外面講嘛那你是不是可以馬上我們不是只有在外面講所以我們提出復議可是復議被否定你不能做追加嗎所以那時候我們在委員會行政院提出復議可是很遺憾復議被否決不是我是說你為什麼不在委員會來提"},{"start":212.642,"end":226.133,"text":"因為這個是一個整體的影響所以當時行政院是提出複議的方式但複議被否決啦我們希望透過複議能夠爭取這些相關的預算能夠再有多討論跟審議的機會可是在複議被否決啊那這邊不能提我就要問你 你不要再講到院會嘛"},{"start":232.697,"end":259.799,"text":"這是一個整體的你不能 你不能提解凍嗎所以我們要說第一個確實那個煽動是有影響的第二個是我們也想解決問題那你應該在這邊提出來嘛對不對你如果有這個問題你是不是現在要提出來我們當然希望跟各政黨能夠再做一些討論如果你真的是為了這個我們年輕人著想那你為什麼現在不趕快做這件事情"},{"start":260.746,"end":269.255,"text":"我們是為了年輕人才好所以編列這個預算所以不希望這個預算當時被這樣煽動所以你為了影響年輕人你要繼續處理這個問題就一直喊就好我們沒有喊我們所以當時提出的副議啊你要不要做嘛我們提出了副議但副議都要提出來啊什麼時候要提出來嘛"},{"start":279.178,"end":295.825,"text":"你不要講婦嬰婦嬰已經否決了對不對婦嬰否決就是讓人遺憾的事情那你現在咧現在咧我們是不是有講過你如果有自在難心你是不是可以提出來是所以我們提出婦嬰什麼時候你講那個廢話還在婦嬰現在廢話就沒婦嬰就已經結束了還在還在要繞回去怎麼可能呢你還在還要繞回去還硬喔"},{"start":307.148,"end":317.544,"text":"委員這不是硬喔那你現在怎麼處理嘛我們當然可以我們接下來可以大家再做跟草野各界來做討論你可以提出來啊叫你提出來什麼時候要提出來嘛"},{"start":319.039,"end":341.217,"text":"我們這個相關的案子 我們會跟行政院來討論一定要提上面 你自己不會提 討論就對了沒有一次討論不提要等上面指示 你們可以講才講是嗎要等大罷免結束之後 你們再來為年輕人來著想是嗎還是這個事情你要來利用一直燒 燒到大罷免結束我們正式為年輕人著想 所以當時才不需要你如果真的是想要處理事情"},{"start":344.419,"end":364.33,"text":"這個三點跟凍結是事實事實我現在沒有說不是事實這個三點跟凍結是事實年輕人心腸敗亡的權益被影響是事實你要不要提出來解要不要提出來解嘛所以當時為什麼我要提出來解你就閉嘴那麼我現在問你的是你現在什麼時候要提出來"},{"start":367.335,"end":378.141,"text":"我們會找適當時機會來提相關還可以再做的做法只是我們必須表達確實這個刪減跟凍結就是事實好 那我現在問那你盡快好不好那我們問審計部一下救援好救援基金裡面7224萬元用途不符本來就是用途不符為什麼要給我們的報告改成關聯性不高"},{"start":397.466,"end":409.683,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們跟審計部發的審核通知跟勞動部的歷次的申付其實這兩個用詞都有在用為什麼要臨時蓋嗎沒有我們只是把它文字再重新整理"},{"start":410.396,"end":433.468,"text":"所以是你的意思沒有 我內部在校對的時候就覺得所以你認為這個說法比較正確沒有 就是我們等於是大家一個比較雙方都可以共同認同的說法你113年底給財政委員會的報告也是寫用途不符那這一次是誰叫你改的沒有 這個原來我們就內部在校對就做這樣的處理"},{"start":434.778,"end":447.44,"text":"那個用途不符就是用途不符改幾個字不反我用的事實會改變嗎不會那現在就是欲蓋彌彰嘛對不對把事實呈現給大眾有那麼難嗎"},{"start":449.124,"end":467.598,"text":"我們從這個案子我們調查跟揭露還有移送檢調在後續偵辦還有呈報監察院的我們都是按照我們查核發現的證據完整呈現給相關的單位我們沒有任何掩飾那救援基金濫用的部分為什麼你用檢列不是用剔除"},{"start":468.584,"end":485.968,"text":"其實公文包因為現在113年度他的決算已經編我們現在在審決算所以這個追討手段可以用剔除直接進入強制執行嘛檢列腳褲是由財政部追討那如果只做檢列就是財務審計做個樣子而已嘛"},{"start":489.952,"end":503.613,"text":"這個兩個 顧委員報告我們其實修正決算7224萬餘元修正這個都要增列其他應收款這個事後都還是要追蹤腳褲的那實際動作呢 你要怎麼做"},{"start":504.473,"end":522.002,"text":"後續一樣這裡面其中有包括有涉及個人財務責任部分我們還是會追究你們怎麼追究一樣就是等判刑有一部分涉及財務責任有送了嗎那個部分移送法辦的部分判決確定我們還是會追究個人的財務責任"},{"start":523.285,"end":548.17,"text":"好 那你這個要多久這個司法判決這個部分我們比較不容易掌握因為現在以那個北分署的案子現在目前是甄決起訴所以可能在法院那邊處理所以這個部分我們就會靜待司法判決確定我們會後都會繼續追蹤好 那你看"},{"start":550.8,"end":572.348,"text":"進度喔 我想你大概每個月跟我們報告可以嗎我們盡量啦 因為這個恐怕因為涉及這個根本沒辦法 這包括我們移送給檢調部份就涉及司法行政責任部份 另外一部分是監察院在調查中你已經送了沒有 還沒送這兩個都送了已經送了是不是 都送了那我再請教部長你發新聞稿說"},{"start":579.685,"end":590.463,"text":"編公務預算要把許民春演唱會還有他拍沙龍照這些不法奴用的錢補回來對吧補回基金嘛你有講過嗎"},{"start":592.691,"end":612.908,"text":"我們說的是說如果要 我的說法是如果要跟個人來追究決策者的責任的話我們會配合檢調跟司法局追討那這筆錢怎麼補 你在基金裡面拿出來的錢怎麼補現在按照審計部給我們的這個審核的通知是要我們修正簡列"},{"start":615.43,"end":639.656,"text":"修正減劣追回那按照修正減劣追回的話他的其實意思是他不應該用在救安基金但是應該是用在公務預算裡面所以在過去相關的判定裡面在還沒有公務預算的時候他就已經可以用掉了嘛那你現在用公務預算去補對不對你的意思是這樣嗎這個是過去如果被判定修正減劣追回的話的做法之一"},{"start":641.55,"end":655.552,"text":"他只是減劣嘛 那你現在我的意思是說你是不是要準備用公務預算去把它補回來這個是做法 只一旦具體的做法我們還可以跟審計部跟主計處再來討論因為審計部劣 減劣就是認定這個動之不合規定我們副審計長我這樣講有錯嗎減劣就是認定動之不合規定嘛 對不對"},{"start":673.578,"end":698.484,"text":"好那你現在說那你現在要怎麼樣用怎麼樣用納稅人的錢去補回來的我還是要跟委員說明勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來辦理那審計部判定的就是修正減劣跟追回所以過去在這做法上面所以這樣是合法就對了哪一個事情是合法就用公務預算補就是對的"},{"start":704.262,"end":711.738,"text":"過去在如果被做這些相關的判定的話編列公務預算來規定是做法之一"},{"start":714.076,"end":733.305,"text":"那如果這樣子的話我們用納稅人的錢來去補這筆錢你認為合理嗎所以我剛才跟委員說明具體的做法當然我們還願意跟行政院跟審議部來做討論可是確實當時在新聞稿裡面寫說編列公共預算來歸電這是過去被判定相關的類型的時候他的做法之一"},{"start":734.746,"end":751.38,"text":"我希望你們這個部分一定要給我們國人一個好交代把它講清楚絕對不能說如果有違法的部分你們一定要依法來追究來做處理如果有違法的部分尤其如果是司法判決的話我們當然會依照司法判決來追究好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時35分）好，主席好。我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。請問你，你上次在這裡說育嬰留停領不到是口誤嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：但是產檢假、陪產檢假確實是有被刪減。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是你講完馬上又補了另外一個謠言，就包含你那天在板橋大罷免宣講的、造謠的會場，講得慷慨激昂，你能不能重複再講一次，總預算對新手爸媽會有什麼影響？"],["洪部長申翰：就是產檢假跟陪產檢假是有被砍，這不是謠言、這不是謠言，這是真的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個預算編在哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：這個編在我們勞動條件及就業平等的相關預算裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：今年是編多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：8,500萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。獎補助費有刪減還是凍結？"],["洪部長申翰：有刪減也有凍結。"],["邱委員鎮軍：哪一筆？沒有刪也沒凍結呢。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：哪一筆啊？你講。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，刪減被刪了800，凍結應該凍了1,900，大概2,000。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到這邊資料怎麼只有600咧？"],["洪部長申翰：委員你的資料不是很正確。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院會刪減的部分是吧？2,185，對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：刪減了800；凍結凍了將近2,000，所以一定會影響到產檢假、陪產檢假相關的薪資補貼，這是為什麼會影響到新手爸媽的權利的原因。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們勞動條件及就業平等司的業務費一共編了9,714萬嘛，我這邊資料是……你是講統刪的部分嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就是這一項裡面被刪了800萬，跟被凍結了2,000萬左右，但是裡面有八千五百多萬就是用在產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補貼，所以一定會影響到的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以影響多少？你這樣影響會多少？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，在下半年我們相關的這些津貼的核發上一定會影響到的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在下半年，那前半年不會？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們其實當然希望都不要影響到新手爸媽的權益，但是很遺憾的是，就是會影響到啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們有為這個事情提出來了嗎？有沒有提出你們的意見？"],["洪部長申翰：我們在之前其實就已經要提出來，這一筆預算是關乎新手爸媽的權益，可是現在就是會影響到了，所以我沒有在造謠，這是真的會發生的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你趕快提出來啊。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要在外面講嘛。你是不是可以馬上把……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們不是只有在外面講，所以我們提出覆議，可是覆議被否定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不能做追加嗎？你不能來……"],["洪部長申翰：所以那時候我們行政院在院會提出覆議，可是很遺憾，覆議被否決。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我是說你為什麼不在委員會來提？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這個是一個整體的影響，所以當時行政院是提出覆議的方式，但覆議被否決啦。我們希望透過覆議，能夠爭取這些相關的預算，能夠再有多的討論跟審議的機會，可是在覆議被否決啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這邊不能提？我現在問的，你不要再講到院會嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：這是一個整體的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不能提解凍嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以委員我們要說，第一個確實刪凍是有影響的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，我的意思是，你如果想解決問題的話，你應該在這邊提出來嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：第二個是我們也想解決問題，所以當時及時提出覆議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你如果有這個問題，你是不是現在要提出來？準備什麼時候提？你什麼時候要提？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我們當然希望跟各政黨能夠再做一些討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你如果真的是為了我們年輕人著想，你為什麼現在不趕快做這件事情？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們是為了年輕人著想，所以編列這個預算，所以不希望這個預算當時被這樣刪凍，這樣子的刪凍就是影響年輕人權益的方式。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以未來你要怎麼繼續處理這個問題？就一直喊就好？"],["洪部長申翰：我們沒有喊，所以我們當時提出覆議啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要不要做嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我們提出了覆議，但覆議被否決啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們什麼時候要提出來嘛？你不要講覆議，覆議已經否決了，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：覆議否決就是讓人遺憾的事情！"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你現在呢？現在呢？我們是不是也講過，你如果有窒礙難行可以提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以我們提出覆議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你講什麼廢話，還在覆議，現在覆議就已經結束了，還要繞回去，怎麼可能呢？你還要繞回去，還要硬拗？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這不是硬拗。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你現在怎麼處理嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我們接下來可以跟大家、跟朝野各界來做討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你可以提出來啊！叫你提出來，你什麼時候要提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：相關的案子我們會跟行政院來討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：一定要提上面，你自己不會提討論就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：當然提……"],["邱委員鎮軍：要等上面指示，你們可以講才講是嗎？等大罷免結束之後，你們再來為年輕人來著想是嗎？還是這個事情你要拿來利用，一直燒，燒到大罷免結束？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們正是為年輕人著想，所以當時才不希望……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果你真的是想要處理事情……"],["洪部長申翰：這筆預算被刪減跟凍結。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你如果真的是想要處理事情，你就應該提出來。"],["洪部長申翰：這個刪減跟凍結是事實。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在沒有說不是事實，那你現在拿出來嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：這個刪減跟凍結是事實，年輕人……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要不要提出來解？要不要提出來解嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：所以當時為什麼我們要提出……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要提出來解，你就閉嘴，我現在問你的是，你現在什麼時候要提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們在適當時機會來提相關還可以再做的作法，只是我們必須表達，確實這個刪減跟凍結就是事實。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你儘快，好不好？","我們問審計部一下。"],["李副審計長順保：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就安基金裡面7,224萬元用途不符，本來就是用途不符，為什麼給我們的報告改成關聯性不高？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，審計部發的審核通知跟勞動部歷次的聲復，其實這兩個用詞都有在用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這為什麼要臨時改？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，我們只是把文字再重新整理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是你的意思，還是部長的意思？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，我們內部在校對的時候就覺得跟……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你認為這個說法比較正確？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，等於是雙方都可以認同的說法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你113年底給財政委員會的報告，也是寫用途不符，那這一次是誰叫你改的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，原來我們內部在校對就做這樣的處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：用途不符就是用途不符，改幾個字不法挪用的事實會改變嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：不會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那現在就是欲蓋彌彰，對不對？把事實呈現給大眾有那麼難嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：這個案子我們調查跟揭露，還有移送檢調後續偵辦，還有呈報監察院的，我們都是按照我們查核發現的證據，完整呈現給相關的單位，我們沒有任何掩飾。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那就安基金濫用的部分，為什麼你用減列，不是用剔除？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，因為113年度它的決算已經編，我們現在在審決算，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們的追討手段可以用剔除，直接進入強制執行，減列繳庫是由財政部追討，如果只做減列，就是財務審計做個樣子而已，是這樣嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，這兩個跟委員報告，我們其實修正決算7,224萬餘元，這個都要增列其他應收款，事後都還是要追蹤繳庫的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那實際動作呢？你要怎麼做？"],["李副審計長順保：後續一樣，其中包括有涉及個人財務責任的部分，我們還是會追究。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們怎麼追究？"],["李副審計長順保：一樣，就是等判刑，有一部分涉及財務責任……"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經有送了嗎？有移送了嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：移送法辦的部分，判決確定，我們還是會追究個人的財務責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那你這個要多久？"],["李副審計長順保：司法判決這個部分我們比較不容易掌握，因為現在北分署的案子目前是偵結起訴，所以可能在法院那邊處理，這個部分我們會靜待司法判決確定，我們會後都會繼續追蹤。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，進度的部分你每個月跟我們報告，可以嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們儘量啦！跟委員報告，這包括我們移送給檢調的部分，就是涉及司法行政責任部分，另外一部分是監察院在調查中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你已經送了沒有？還沒送？"],["李副審計長順保：這兩個都送了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經送了是嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：都送了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。那我再請教部長，你發新聞稿說，編公務預算要把許銘春演唱會的還有他拍沙龍照這些不法挪用的錢補回來，對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：有發新聞稿。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你有講過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我的說法是如果要跟個人來追究決策者的責任的話，我們會配合檢調跟司法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那這筆錢怎麼追討？你在基金裡面拿出來的錢怎麼補？"],["洪部長申翰：現在按照審計部給我們的審核通知，是要我們修正減列追回，那按照修正減列追回的話，其實意思是它不應該用在就安基金，但是應該是用在公務預算裡面，所以在過去相關的判定裡面……"],["邱委員鎮軍：在還沒有公務預算的時候，它就已經可以用掉了，那你現在要用公務預算去補，對不對？你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：過去如果被判定修正減列追回的話，這是作法之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那只是減列嘛！現在我的意思是說，你是不是要準備用公務預算去把它補回來？"],["洪部長申翰：這個是作法之一，但具體的作法我們還可以跟審計部跟主計處再來討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為審計部列減列就是認定動支不合規定，副審計長，我這樣講有錯嗎？減列就是認定動支不合規定，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：簡單說，不同意核銷。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。那你現在要怎麼樣用納稅人的錢去補回來呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要跟委員說明，勞動部是一個行政部門，我們必須要依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來辦理，那審計部判定的就是修正減列跟追回，所以過去在這作法上面，公務預算……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這樣是合法就對了？這樣是合法就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：哪一個事情是合法？"],["邱委員鎮軍：用公務預算補是對的？"],["洪部長申翰：過去如果被做這些相關判定的話，編列公務預算來歸墊是作法之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那如果這樣子的話，我們用納稅人的錢來去補這筆錢，你認為合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我剛才跟委員說明，具體的作法當然我們還願意跟行政院、跟審計部來做討論，可是確實當時在新聞稿裡面寫說編列公務預算來歸墊，這是過去被判定相關類型的時候，它的作法之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我希望你們這個部分一定要給我們國人一個交代，把它講清楚，絕對不能說……如果有違法的部分，你們一定要依法來追究、來做處理。"],["洪部長申翰：如果有違法的部分，尤其如果是司法判決的話，我們當然會依照司法判決來追究。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請盧縣一委員質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謝謝委員 謝謝官員 我想先請審計部這邊你好這邊第一個我是要問的是 我今天有幫您印出來 這是您之前做出來的"},{"start":35.39,"end":47.58,"text":"一個救安基金支出項目上面很明顯的寫了衛福衛福基金設置目的還有基金用途規定我先幫您把衛福捲起來所以您從三月的第一份報告就寫到說救安基金呢經過你們的查是衛福和基金設置目的還有基金用途規定情形昨天來了兩份報告您知道嗎"},{"start":64.344,"end":88.9,"text":"我知道我幫你比較一下左邊跟右邊的報告一開始的報告您還是維持這個版本你說衛福我也請這個CHAT GPT幫大家翻譯翻譯什麼叫做用途衛福啊用途衛福的意思就是說實際使用方法跟原本規定設計或允許的用途不相符合"},{"start":90.001,"end":116.961,"text":"結果呢 這個你們的聯絡人貴單位的聯絡人忽然在兩三小時後把這個第一份報告收回傳了第二份報告來那這兩份報告唯一修改的地方就在用途未符 用途規定未符這些字全部變成關聯性不高那我再幫大家翻譯翻譯關聯性不高的意思就是說雖然可能沒有違規或誤用的問題"},{"start":123.226,"end":124.206,"text":"那時間可以暫停我們的電腦"},{"start":151.07,"end":158.074,"text":"電腦斷了時間可以繼續"},{"start":169.662,"end":186.009,"text":"所以最後就改成關聯性不高我想問一下你們這兩三個小時內到底發生什麼事因為你三月到現在都是說衛福結果第一份版本也是衛福後來改成關聯性不高請問有沒有什麼上級的施壓要配合勞動部"},{"start":188.372,"end":202.686,"text":"報告委員就是沒有上級施壓那我們審計機關是獨立機關也不會配合勞動部那跟委員報告就是我們會文資處理是因為我們後面在校對的時候發現一個問題就是"},{"start":204.187,"end":232.685,"text":"我們跟勞動部來來回回的公文其實從去年底一直到今年歷次包括我們的審核通知包括勞動部後面的申複還有我們在合附回去的公文來來回回其實文字啊大概這兩個文字都有在用意思是說在你們從去年年底至今因為我這邊手上有一本你們跟"},{"start":234.086,"end":257.298,"text":"勞動部申付的資料我早上8點10分才能才拿到啦謝謝部長讓我這個培養速讀的習慣很快就把它速讀完了那這個你們更改是因為說後來覺得部分是關聯性不高那還是有未符的嗎還是其他本來你全部覺得是未符合現在全部都變關聯性不高你可以舉例嗎在民系裡面齁其實"},{"start":262.467,"end":286.585,"text":"我特別把這個整個背景稍微報告一下就是因為就業安定基金他有一個收支保管及運用辦法那剛剛部長有特別說明說他的第五條的第一項是規定基金的用途在信行條文裡面他的第十二款他就有一個其他有關支出那我們在審計的時候"},{"start":288.863,"end":309.873,"text":"這個JOND基金這個收支保管運用辦法它的解釋是主管機關在解釋就是勞動部在解釋所以就會有一個很大的行政裁量行政裁量這個就是剛剛我們我一開始報告說勞動部願意進一步去改正把這一款拿掉我覺得在審計外部監督來看它就是一個進步的做法"},{"start":310.313,"end":324.331,"text":"那審計部可以稍微告訴我們一下您列出來這些裡面當然包括演唱會啦包括印紅包袋 包括送禮包括影片的製作 媒宣啊等等您覺得關聯性最不高的是哪一項"},{"start":326.733,"end":339.26,"text":"這個是有些是很主觀啦因為跟委員報告就是比如說剛剛講他的基金的用途其實就很確定三大項一個是促進國民就業第二個是"},{"start":341.141,"end":364.62,"text":"外國人聘僱管理跟許可還有提升勞工福祉及勞工權益的輔助那我們洋洋灑灑列出來我們修正的這7224萬餘元這個所以你的意思是說其實我幫您做了這張表跟剛剛講的那三個理由您都覺得關聯性其實不高但是沾上邊"},{"start":367.105,"end":374.357,"text":"是吧從我們因為這個部分我們會希望那個勞動部來說勞動部其實他們在生物內容列舉出來謝謝謝謝謝謝沈基部那我們請勞動部部長"},{"start":383.041,"end":407.626,"text":"先幫我放一下這兩段影片這兩段影片是20天前我在黃國昌委員會面諮詢勞動部回審計部的立場到底是每一分每一行都浪費到的錢要做回來還是幫過去所犯的錯誤再問過是非其實看迴函是最清楚啦我這樣直接跟部長說好了齁如果這個不是密件的話那是不是請會後勞動部來提供"},{"start":411.287,"end":432.835,"text":"呃 應該是可以吧好 可以嗎 好好 下一段可不可以也給我們未還委員會的委員可以啊還有我們國民黨黨團我們也想看這個七千萬您到底要如何發揮你的魄力把它追討回來好 那這個是我們的責任因為民眾希望可以追討回來是"},{"start":435.233,"end":441.729,"text":"昨天呢您也跟黃國昌委員說您會去找許明春部長溝通請問您至今溝通了嗎"},{"start":443.5,"end":471.522,"text":"我想跟陳委員說明 包括你剛才這個影片上面的內容其實我們在審計部的最後給我們的審計的認定是在3月21號我們收到然後3月28號我們正式的回函給審計部同意審計部要我們修正這件事情所以3月28號是禮拜五所以3月28號隔天的應該是禮拜一或禮拜二其實我就把3月28號我們回給審計部的函提供給"},{"start":473.759,"end":486.936,"text":"包括黃委員包括各個在各政黨跟委員會3月28號的函等於是我們最後我們比較完整的包括我們的立場跟我們的改進我們其實當時就已經提供了"},{"start":487.81,"end":514.651,"text":"好那我今天是8點10分收到的啦收到這一份當然裡面包括了很多您跟審計部之間種種的回覆因為您說有一些部分您想要申付他還是跟救安基金有相關性等等的我這邊稍微結錄幾個奇聞共賞我等一下也會放到我的社群讓大家知道說其實國人最在意的這個演唱會啦"},{"start":518.171,"end":542.429,"text":"我們這個演唱會其實神蹟部有幫我們算出來演唱會總共花了368萬那您有在這個申付內容上面寫到說因為這個演唱會其實大家在網路上都有看到新聞媒體也有看到2.5小時的演唱會許明春一個人唱了半小時並且旁邊還有很專業的舞者等等的"},{"start":543.51,"end":560.623,"text":"那這是國人非常在意的368頁但是您幫他寫的身負理由是可以促進國民就業我也想知道這個可以促進國民就業您的KPI到底是哪裡來的再來還有一個整個入處的party喔"},{"start":561.704,"end":566.586,"text":"勞動部僑簽典禮活動勞動部入處紀念勞動部僑簽政策宣導影片這三個加起來總共是415萬但是呢大家從我們現在的slide上面看得很明顯"},{"start":578.01,"end":598.022,"text":"你的入處影片 你說這個活動415萬是回顧勞動政策推動的歷程但大家看到那天是星光閃閃 有非常多的握手 合照等等上面這個許民進部長是有專業的這個妝髮 形象照 還有這個舞裙等等"},{"start":599.537,"end":621.278,"text":"那我是想知道說你當然幾乎我看了這一大本你7224萬幾乎都身負了並且都講到說的確是跟國民促進就業有相關還有這個性別平權宣導有相關禁止歧視等等的你是怎麼評估出來的啊"},{"start":622.259,"end":637.125,"text":"我跟陳仁說明我們在申複的內容裡面主要是同仁是回顧當初為什麼這些計劃執行其實相關的思考 當初為什麼為什麼這樣思考那這些補充的說明提供給審計部但我知道"},{"start":646.289,"end":655.197,"text":"會有一些委員對當初的這些思考會有不同的看法這部分委員尊重那最後審計部當然就是判定審計部就是判定"},{"start":656.52,"end":680.535,"text":"關聯度不高是不該使用救安基金這部分我們當然必須尊重審計部的判定我說實話裡面有部分的做法就我來說如果是我主觀的來說其實你不認同我也不會這樣做這是你同仁一起寫的身負義務應該說同仁是把當初在那個時間點上面為什麼會做這樣子的選擇或為什麼做這樣子的規劃的說明讓審計部知道"},{"start":685.458,"end":713.557,"text":"好那這個是您給我們的新聞稿上週我們本來禮拜三應該要開勞動部的委員會嘛所以我來翻譯一下您的這個新聞稿總共分成四大段第一段是說審計部要勞動部收回7224萬元認為勞動部就是在亂花錢但是您現在還在身負這個我知道整本都是你身負的理由那第二個大家最不能接受的地方就是小偷從納稅人的身上偷了錢來辦這個東西"},{"start":716.338,"end":731.042,"text":"300多萬的演唱會說是促進就業415萬的橋籤party說跟就業安定有相關已經被說名不符實從3月開始說未符合未符合申請資格最後還是用納稅人的錢來補這個洞"},{"start":734.023,"end":759.619,"text":"這是你上面寫的未來距離向行政院爭取編列年度購入預算歸還就業安定基金這就是大家不能接受的地方啊那當然你的這個新聞稿還有好大部分在講你未來會進行改革但是你對於人民最關心的亂花錢的細節到底是什麼你要怎麼追討反而是不到一半的篇幅啦這個我相信不是國人想看到的新聞稿欸"},{"start":760.399,"end":779.946,"text":"所以我可以跟你說明是這個新聞稿的內容主要是我們在收到審計部3月21號的判定之後其實我們的回應我還是必須強調審計部的判定給我們的判定是認為關聯性不高必須修正予以收回那如果從審計的規範來說的話過從過去審計的規範來說因為他不是判定剔除"},{"start":784.744,"end":811.427,"text":"那他是判定修正予以收回那簡單來說就是他認為這不應該是救安基金使用不應該使用在救安基金應該是使用在公務預算那所以從勞動部的角度我們是一個行政部門我們必須按照審計部給我們的判定來往下執行我們必須來做他所謂的修正檢列並收回那編列公務預算規定"},{"start":812.728,"end":830.499,"text":"是過去被判定為修正跟收回的做法之一當然我們現在我們也願意我知道現在大家對這個看法會有一種覺得好像是不是全民買單或者是又是用納稅人的錢可是就審計相關的規範這個審計的結果跟規範勞動部必須遵守"},{"start":835.282,"end":859.45,"text":"因為現在的確是有人被收押剛起訴他也是花到了救安基金的錢所以如果你還要用公務預算來支付這筆錢還回去我想這個是大家常識上是不能接受的啦陳委員我跟你說明當然現在大家我說大家關心可能會不會有個人的責任我們說我其實也不斷的在說明"},{"start":860.73,"end":877.026,"text":"勞動部我們會配合檢調跟司法來去做如果有個人責任的所以不該從公務預算的最後你不會從公務預算是嗎如果真的司法判定下來是有比方說欽債那該去追回"},{"start":878.14,"end":888.451,"text":"也許就該追回因為大家對您的期待蠻高您今天上任的時候說您對救案基金是絕不護短絕不護短到現在都沒有改變但是現在很多揪出不服的是審計部去送檢調的也是審計部倒是沒有看到勞動部有什麼內部調查或是勞動部來送檢調"},{"start":898.732,"end":922.055,"text":"我跟陳委員說這段時間檢調都在查我們是全力配合檢調不只檢調在查包括監察院都在查但是因為現在大家關心的是這些相關法律責任的問題這些法律責任有沒有不法有沒有不法的隱私有沒有不法的這些事情當然他也是必須由司法來做判決你剛才講的謝前分署長他也是現在是在司法的過程裡面"},{"start":922.335,"end":936.673,"text":"是是是這個是剛剛林月琴委員也有跟你講到你說有六項策進作為但是這個我看了一般網友啦上班族啊他們說如果他們是這樣子寫的話肯定是被老闆電死的我也念幾個給你聽"},{"start":938.135,"end":959.085,"text":"你說你未來有六項策進作為其中有一項是使基金使用範圍明確化不可致用於與業務無關或者是非公務用途之項目這句話簡直就是常識一般常識 平均一席話 如聽一席話再來 您並不得採購年節禮盒"},{"start":961.426,"end":975.478,"text":"這也是一般常識更何況你的申付內容有一個寫得很特別他買了年節禮盒你的申付內容理由是說提升多元單位能見錄還有商品價值這個是113年部長春節禮盒設計30萬然後這個你還幫他申付你這邊已經寫說不得採購年節禮盒結果你的申付理由還有這一項"},{"start":986.667,"end":1010.347,"text":"那再來囉 各計畫應該確實依照業務性質及宣導對象評估達成要效益 何時偏略廣宣預算這也是你寫的 這不是知識 這不是常識嗎但是你剛剛的身負理由也有說我這個演唱會是有促進到就業所以我真的不知道你的身負理由到底跟你未來要趕下來的計畫到底搭不搭得起來"},{"start":1011.187,"end":1029.961,"text":"還有你寫基金管理會開會會提升計劃科目之用明細所以之前都沒有之前你們委員會都沒有提供計劃科目之用明細陳委員我跟你說明剛才說申複上面的內容就是業務單位他其實是在針對當時為什麼做這樣子的選擇進行說明"},{"start":1034.224,"end":1054.573,"text":"所以確實當時包括他當時可能認為說他的年節的禮盒的採購他採購的對象可能是因為勞動部下面有有輔導一些多元的單位是跟他們來採購當時是這樣但是接下來已經很清楚我們已經很清楚規範不可以再拿救安基金來採購年節禮盒不管是不是跟誰採購都不行"},{"start":1055.854,"end":1080.148,"text":"我們現在已經做出很清楚的規定了單民的六項經濟我希望可以更大刀闊斧一點因為這個在網友的眼中看起來真的是一般公司很common sense的規定確實過去有一些規範模糊的地方所以你會看到一些大家其實覺得會不符合大家嘗試的或者是不符合期待的部分我們現在就是用直接白紙黑字的明定把這些東西絕對就禁止了"},{"start":1081.089,"end":1088.996,"text":"好那我們來講一下因為剛剛您的身負條件其實裡面寫到很多都已經跟促進就業相關改善勞工平權減少歧視等等結果這邊我想是全國人民會覺得的確勞動部部長可以幫得上忙可以改善勞工我們有一個國家發展委員會的會議出席成員是包括了所有的部長"},{"start":1104.73,"end":1119.043,"text":"我幫你們精算了一下 你們是唯一一個部門連續102次 五屆的部長全部都不是本人出席 有的是他人代理出席有人甚至不出席 我細數給你聽國家發展委員會第25次到第38次 國防局部長應到未到 全部請人代理"},{"start":1127.351,"end":1136.959,"text":"39到50次林美珠部長一樣陰道未到有時候請人代理都沒有再來部長許明春坐最久第51次會議開到第120次會議全部由他人代理但是他有空去開演唱會然後呢"},{"start":1143.604,"end":1148.486,"text":"再來是何沛山部長他從121次會議到124次也是應到未到然後再來是您的兩次125到126您也應到未到請他人帶領我們來看一下會議的內容會議的內容有婦女及中高齡就業"},{"start":1161.512,"end":1184.979,"text":"有這個少子化有勞動部共同提報投資青年政策執行人口移民政策聘外國專業人才你這樣子從上看到下到底哪一點跟促進就業不相關你這個正式的會議不去然後你再幫救安基金寫身負我覺得這個是國人不能接受的所以這是兩件事情"},{"start":1185.919,"end":1213.701,"text":"申付是審計部要求我們要做申付的說明的我覺得不用把這兩件事情混在一起我先給你看一下你這個125跟126次啦125他的題目是產業轉型所以一定是有人要轉職有人會失業有人會需要即職的訓練第126次的會議呢是關於職場健康還有勞動保險年金服務永續等等我想跟你是再相關不過的那你看一下其他人"},{"start":1214.902,"end":1218.644,"text":"環境部部長去了 文化部部長去了 衛福部部長去了其他的部長都到了但是在這個過程中 我是很不好意思放您這張照片但是您的這個宣講 剛陳昭志委員看了也去了 您當民主的側翼我也很希望用您這張照片可是上面的新聞標題是寫說 您願當台灣勞工的靠山"},{"start":1244.651,"end":1259.099,"text":"因為就是您當初說盡忠職守 恪遵國家法令結果勞動部卻變成一個連續國家發展會議所有主題都是跟勞動部相關的喔連續102次部長親自衛道的部門那個陳委員我們剛剛查了一下 比方剛剛提到的12月19號我們沒有到那天在立法院裡面審勞動部的預算就是"},{"start":1270.786,"end":1291.866,"text":"那你下次可以到我覺得當然如果有時間我當然會盡量到我們期待你下次可以到剛剛包括剛剛成人其實提到的這幾個主題其實我們在行政院也常常跟不管國發會或者是跟經濟部或相關的部會其實很密集的在做討論並不是我沒有親身到這個會議上就代表對於這個議題不重視並不是這樣就像剛剛那個會議的時間其實我們是在"},{"start":1295.121,"end":1313.145,"text":"這個委員會裡面我知道 但其他部長到了所以我這邊也稍微給您看一下其他部長蠻重視的我也希望說您未來也可以當一個民主的部長然後把您部長的職責也都做好如果沒有其他更重要的事情的話當然我應該自己親自出席對不起 交給我最後兩個問題因為就是有人拜託幫忙問好 這個"},{"start":1318.446,"end":1336.619,"text":"應度的MOU 去年我們2月就簽了MOU但是11月勞動部召開記者會說未來每兩個月就會開一次會議那必要的話就線上會議所以今年1月我們應該要開結果今年1月沒開你1月的時候說2月會開那至今開了嗎"},{"start":1337.88,"end":1359.76,"text":"我們第一次工作會議已經開完了我們也開了第二次工作會議前的會前會那目前跟台印雙方在印度移工的引進上面其實大家溝通是很密切的那目前的狀況是因為包括委員們都比較很重視我們其實職聘的部分"},{"start":1360.404,"end":1379.355,"text":"那所以現在目前的階段是我們也在更進一步的去了解這個應方他其實相關的聘僱的系統他們有一套系統那應方也在了解我們其實對於職聘的期待現在是在會前會已經開完了那現在是要在約下一次的工作會大概是幾月"},{"start":1380.415,"end":1400.105,"text":"這要看跟運方這要看運方的討論 對可是跟運方的互動是很密切的不是責任在運方這是雙方可是跟運方的溝通包括跟運方的討論是很密切的所以你們以後會按照你們原本約定每兩個月開會照樣跟我們當然希望盡量的但是現在是會前會開完"},{"start":1401.246,"end":1427.718,"text":"那大家正在彼此熟悉對方一些細節的操作的做法所以年比這個進度你覺得可以如期完成嗎我們希望假設一切順利因為前面只是一千名的小規模的示範那我們當然希望順利所以也是因為希望順利所以我們其實跟硬方私底下面再去了解他們做法上面的細節這個是很密切的"},{"start":1427.918,"end":1456.577,"text":"好我希望下次還是可以維持兩個月可以開會一次就依照你們的MOU最後一個問題就是之前劉建國委員曾經提出你們這個事辦計畫彈性運價事辦計畫非常的糟糕所以曾經簡略還有凍結一百萬的預算待改善之後書面報告可以動之林淑芬委員也說勞動部不願意聽取民間團體的意見一意孤行成為一個註定失敗的事辦計畫那我在想現在小子化非常的嚴重剛國發"},{"start":1458.478,"end":1464.581,"text":"就是您之前的部長可能沒有親自到場的這個也討論過這件事國發會橫向溝通非常重要嘛請問一個月內可以給我一個書面書面報告等等我會寫一個臨時提案假使我們從公部門開始來做這樣子的事辦計畫您是否願意跟各部門做一個溝通呢"},{"start":1480.582,"end":1506.111,"text":"因為現在很多民間的單位都希望以日來作為這個申請的單位我們現在確實是在規劃來擴大跟過去事辦的範圍又不一樣其實我們希望來擴大規劃的階段但是你是公部門你如果覺得以日為計算並且以申作則並且從公部門先行我想是一個不錯的做法"},{"start":1506.751,"end":1533.517,"text":"當然如果公部門要先來做我們當然不會反對可是我們現在在想的是民間部門要怎麼這裡面有幾個條件包括裁員包括裁員的部分包括一些排班的做法上面怎麼讓勞資雙方其實可以都在一定的可運作的範圍之下這個我們在私底下溝通是當然謝謝 朝委謝謝謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時52分）謝謝主席、謝謝委員、謝謝官員，我想先請審計部。"],["李副審計長順保：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：你好。第一個我要問的是，我今天有幫您印出來，這是您之前針對就安基金支出項目所做的報告，上面很明顯的寫了未符基金設置目的還有基金用途規定，我先幫你把「未符」圈起來，所以您從3月的第一份報告開始就寫到，就安基金的支出經過你們的核查有未符合基金設置目的還有基金用途規定的情形。昨天來了兩份報告，您知道嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我幫你比較一下左邊跟右邊的報告。一開始的報告您還是維持這個版本，你說「未符」。我也請ChatGPT幫大家翻譯翻譯什麼叫做「用途未符」，「用途未符」的意思就是說，實際使用方法跟原本規定設計或允許的用途不相符合。結果你們的聯絡人，貴單位的聯絡人忽然在兩、三個小時後把第一份報告收回，傳了第二份報告來，這兩份報告唯一修改的地方就在「用途未符」、「用途規定未符」這些字全部變成「關聯性不高」。我再幫大家翻譯翻譯，「關聯性不高」的意思就是說，雖然可能沒有違規或誤用的問題……","時間可以暫停喔。那我們的電腦，電腦斷了。可以了？好，時間可以繼續。","所以最後就改成「關聯性不高」。我想問一下，你們這兩、三個小時內到底發生什麼事？因為你從3月到現在都是說「未符」，第一份版本也是「未符」，結果後來改成「關聯性不高」，請問有沒有什麼上級施壓要配合勞動部？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員，沒有上級施壓，我們審計機關是獨立機關，也不會配合勞動部。跟委員報告，我們會做文字處理是因為我們後面在校對的時候發現一個問題，就是從去年底一直到今年，我們跟勞動部來來回回的歷次公文，包括我們的審核通知，包括勞動部後面的聲復，還有我們再核復回去的公文，來來回回的歷次公文中，這兩個文字都有在用。"],["陳委員菁徽：意思是說你們雙方從去年年底至今，因為我這邊手上有一本勞動部跟你們聲復的資料，我早上8點10分才拿到，謝謝部長讓我培養速讀的習慣，很快就把它速讀完了，所以你們更改是因為後來覺得部分是「關聯性不高」，那還是有「未符」的嗎？還是本來你全部覺得是未符合，現在全部都變關聯性不高，你可以舉例嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我特別把整個背景稍微報告一下，因為就業安定基金有一個收支保管及運用辦法，剛剛部長有特別說明，這個辦法的第五條第一項是規定基金的用途，其中現行條文的第十二款是「其他有關支出」，我們在審計的時候，就業安定基金這個收支保管運用辦法，它的解釋是主管機關在解釋，就是勞動部在解釋……"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂。"],["李副審計長順保：所以就會有一個很大的行政裁量，有行政裁量權，這個也就是剛剛我一開始報告說，勞動部願意自己去改正，把這一款拿掉，我覺得在審計外部監督來看，它就是一個進步的作法。"],["陳委員菁徽：那審計部可以稍微告訴我們您列出來的這些，裡面當然包括演唱會，包括印紅包袋，包括送禮，包括影片的製作媒宣等等，您覺得關聯性最不高的是哪一項？"],["李副審計長順保：這個有些是很主觀啦……"],["陳委員菁徽：您說，您說。"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，比如說剛剛講基金的用途其實就很確定三大項，一個是促進國民就業，第二個是外國人聘僱、管理跟許可，還有提升勞工福祉及勞工權益的扶助，我們洋洋灑灑列出來，我們修正的這7,224萬餘元這個內……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是，我幫您做的這張表跟剛剛講的那三個項目，您都覺得關聯性其實不高，但是沾上邊，是吧？"],["李副審計長順保：因為這個部分我們會希望勞動部來說明，勞動部其實他們在聲復內容有列舉出來啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：有、有、有，好，謝謝，謝謝，謝謝審計部，那我們請勞動部部長。","先幫我放一下這兩段影片，這兩段影片是20天前我在黃國昌委員後面的質詢。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：當天您也跟黃國昌委員說，您會去找許銘春部長溝通，請問您至今溝通了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟陳委員說明，包括你剛才的這個影片上面的內容，審計部最後給我們的審計的認定我們是在3月21號收到，然後3月28號我們正式回函給審計部，同意審計部要我們修正的這件事情。3月28號是禮拜五，3月28號隔週的應該是禮拜一或禮拜二，其實我就把3月28號我們回給審計部的函提供給相關，包括黃委員，包括各政黨跟委員會，3月28號的函等於是我們最後比較完整的，包括我們的立場跟我們的改進，我們當時其實就已經提供了。"],["陳委員菁徽：我今天是8點10分收到這一份的，當然裡面包括很多您跟審計部之間種種的回復，因為您說有一些部分想要聲復，它還是跟就安基金有相關性等等。我這邊稍微節錄幾個奇文共賞，等一下也會放到我的社群讓大家知道，其實國人最在意的這個演唱會，審計部有幫我們算出來，演唱會總共花了368萬，您有在聲復內容上面寫，因為這個演唱會其實大家在網路上都有看到，新聞媒體也有看到，2.5小時的演唱會，許銘春一個人唱了半小時，並且旁邊還有很專業的舞者等等，這是國人非常在意的。您幫這368萬寫的聲復理由是，可以促進國民就業，我也想知道這個可以促進國民就業的KPI到底是哪裡來的？","再來還有一個，關於整個入厝的party，勞動部喬遷典禮活動、勞動部入厝紀念、勞動部喬遷政策宣導影片，這3個加起來總共是415萬，但是大家從我們現在的slide上面看得很明顯，你的入厝影片……你說這個415萬的活動是回顧勞動政策推動的歷程，但大家看到那天是星光閃閃，有非常多的握手、合照等等，上面這個許銘春部長還有專業的妝髮、形象照，還有舞群等等，我是想知道……我看了這一大本對7,224萬幾乎都聲復了，並且都講到的確是跟國民促進就業有相關，還有與性別平權宣導、禁止歧視等等相關，你是怎麼評估出來的？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟陳委員說明，在我們聲復的內容裡面，同仁主要是回顧當初為什麼有這些計畫執行的相關思考。"],["陳委員菁徽：為何核定成功？"],["洪部長申翰：對，當初為什麼是這樣思考，把這些補充的說明提供給審計部，但是我知道會有一些委員對當初的這些思考有不同的看法，這部分我也尊重，最後審計部當然就是判定關聯度不高，不該使用就安基金。這部分我們當然必須尊重審計部的判定，我說實話，裡面有部分的做法，就我來說，如果是我……"],["陳委員菁徽：主觀來說你也不認同……"],["洪部長申翰：我也不會這樣做。"],["陳委員菁徽：這是你同仁一起寫的聲復意見。"],["洪部長申翰：應該說，同仁是把當初在那個時間點上為什麼會做這樣子的選擇或為什麼會做這樣規劃的說明讓審計部知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這是您給我們的新聞稿，上週本來禮拜三應該要開勞動部的委員會，我來翻譯一下您的這個新聞稿，總共分成四大段，第一段是說，審計部要勞動部收回7,224萬元，認為勞動部就是在亂花錢，但是您現在還在聲復，這個我知道，整本都是你聲復的理由；第二個大家最不能接受的地方就是，小偷從納稅人身上偷了錢來辦這個東西，包括三百多萬的演唱會說是促進就業，415萬的喬遷party說是跟就業安定有相關，已經被說名不符實，從3月開始說未符合申請資格，但最後還是用納稅人的錢來補這個洞。這是你上面寫的，「未來俱已向行政院爭取編列年度公務預算歸還就業安定基金」，這就是大家不能接受的地方。","當然，你的這個新聞稿還有好大一部分在講你未來會進行改革，但是你對於人民最關心的──亂花錢的細節到底是什麼、你要怎麼追討，反而寫不到一半的篇幅，我相信這個不是國人想看到的新聞稿耶！"],["洪部長申翰：我可以跟你說明，這個新聞稿的內容主要是我們在收到審計部3月21號的判定之後，其實我們的回應……我還是必須強調，審計部給我們的判定是認為關聯性不高、必須修正、予以收回。如果從過去審計的規範來說的話，因為它不是判定剔除，而是判定修正、予以收回，簡單來說它認為這不應該使用就安基金，而應使用公務預算，所以從勞動部的角度，我們是一個行政部門，必須按照審計部給我們的判定往下執行，必須做它所謂的修正、減列並收回。","編列公務預算歸墊是過去被判定為修正跟收回的做法之一，當然我們也願意……我知道現在大家對這個看法會有一種……覺得好像是不是要全民買單，或者又是用納稅人的錢。可是就審計相關的規範，這個審計的結果跟規範勞動部必須遵守。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為現在的確是有人被收押、剛起訴……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：他也花到了就安基金的錢，所以如果你還要用公務預算來支付這筆錢，把它還回去，我想這是大家常識上所不能接受的。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我跟你說明，當然現在大家關心會不會有個人的責任，我其實也不斷地在說明，勞動部會配合檢調跟司法去做……如果有個人責任的追究……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以不該從公務預算的……最後你不會用公務預算，是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：如果司法真的判定下來是有，比方說侵占，那該去追回也許就該追回啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：因為大家對您的期待滿高的，您第一天上任的時候說，您對就安基金是絕不護短。"],["洪部長申翰：對，到現在都沒有改變。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是現在有很多揪出不符的是審計部，去送檢調的也是審計部，倒是沒有看到勞動部有什麼內部調查，或是勞動部有送檢調。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟陳委員說明，這段時間檢調都在查，我們是全力配合檢調，不只檢調在查，包括監察院都在查。但是因為現在大家關心的是這些相關法律責任的問題，這些法律責任中有沒有不法、有沒有不法的營私、有沒有不法的這些事情？當然，它還是必須由司法院來作判決。你剛剛講的謝前分署長，他現在也是在司法的過程裡面啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：是，這是剛剛林月琴也跟你講到的，你說有6項策進作為，但是我看了一般網友、上班族說，如果是他們這樣的話，肯定會被老闆電死。我也唸幾個給你聽，你說你未來有6項策進作為，其中有一項是基金使用範圍明確化，不可支用於與業務無關或非公務用途之項目，這句話簡直就是一般常識，聽君一席話如聽一席話；再來，「明定不得採購年節禮盒」，這也是一般常識，更何況你的聲復內容有一個寫得很特別，他買了年節禮盒，你聲復的內容理由是說，「提升多元單位能見度還有商品價值」，這個是113年部長春節禮盒設計要30萬，你還幫它聲復，你在這邊都寫「不得採購年節禮盒」了，結果你的聲復理由還有這一項；再來，「各計畫應該確實依照業務性質及宣導對象，評估達成效益、何時編列廣宣預算」，這也是你寫的，這不是知識、這不是常識嗎？但是你剛剛的聲復理由也有說，我這個演唱會是有促進到就業，所以我真的不知道，你的聲復理由跟你未來要改善的計畫到底搭不搭得起來？還有，你寫「基金管理會開會，會提升計畫科目支用明細」，所以之前都沒有？之前你們委員會都沒有提供計畫科目支用明細？"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員我跟你說明，剛剛說聲復上面的內容就是業務單位其實是在針對當時為什麼做這樣的選擇進行說明，所以確實當時……包括他當時可能認為，他年節禮盒採購的對象可能是……因為勞動部底下有輔導一些多元的單位，會跟他們採購，當時是這樣，但是接下來，我們已經很清楚規範了，不可以再拿就安基金採購年節禮盒，不管是跟誰採購都不行，我們現在已經作出很清楚的規定了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我懂了，但您的6項策進作為我希望可以更大刀闊斧一點，因為這個在網友的眼中看起來真的是一般公司很common sense的規定。"],["洪部長申翰：過去確實有一些規範模糊的地方，所以你會看到一些大家其實覺得不符合常識或是不符合期待的部分，我們現在就是直接用白紙黑字明定，把這些東西絕對禁止了。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們再來講一下，因為剛剛您的聲復條件裡面寫到很多都跟促進就業相關，包含改善勞工平權、減少歧視等等，這邊我想是全國人民會覺得的確勞動部部長可以幫得上忙，可以改善勞工的狀況，我們有一個國家發展委員會議，出席成員是包括了所有的部長，我幫你們精算了一下，你們是唯一一個部門，連續102次、5屆的部長全部都不是本人出席，有的是他人代理出席，有人甚至不出席。我細數給你聽，國家發展委員會議第25次到第38次，郭芳煜部長應到未到，全部請人代理；第39次第50次，林美珠部長一樣應到未到，有時候連請人代理都沒有；再來，部長許銘春做最久，第51次會議開到第120次會議全部由他人代理，但是他有空去開演唱會；再來是何佩珊部長，從第121次會議到第124次也是應到未到；再來是您的2次，第125次到第126次，您也應到未到，請他人代理。我們來看一下會議的內容，會議的內容有婦女及中高齡就業、少子化、勞動部共同提報投資青年政策執行、強化人口及移民政策，聘外國專業人才，你這樣子從上看到下，到底哪一點跟促進就業不相關？你不去這個正式的會議，然後你在幫就安基金寫聲復，我覺得這個是國人不能接受的。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，這是兩件事情，聲復是審計部要求我們要做聲復的說明……"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂……"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得不用把這兩件事情混在一起。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，我先給你看一下第125次跟第126次的會議，第125次的題目是產業轉型，所以一定是有人要轉職，有人會失業，有人會需要技職的訓練；第126次的會議是關於職場健康，還有勞動保險、年金、服務永續等等，我想跟你是再相關不過的，你看一下其他人，環境部部長去了，文化部部長去了，衛福部部長去了，其他的部長都到了。在這個過程中，我是很不好意思放您這張照片啦！但是您的這個宣講，剛剛陳昭姿委員也看了、也去了，說您願當民主的側翼，我也很希望用您這張照片，可是上面的新聞標題是寫說您願當臺灣勞工的靠山，因為這是您當初說盡忠職守、恪遵國家法令，結果國家發展會議所有主題都是跟勞動部相關的，勞動部卻變成一個連續102次部長未親自到的部門。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，剛剛我們查了一下，比方說剛剛提到的12月19號我們沒有到，那天在立法院裡面審勞動部的預算，就是……"],["陳委員菁徽：那您下次可以到嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得如果有時間，我當然儘量到。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們期待您下次可以到。"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛陳委員提到的這幾個主題，其實我們在行政院也常常跟國發會、經濟部或相關的部會很密集的在做討論，並不是我沒有親自到這個會議上，就代表對於這個議題不重視，並不是這樣，就像剛剛那個會議的時間，其實我們是在這個委員會裡面審查……"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，但其他部長到了，所以我也稍微給您看一下，其他部長蠻重視的，我也希望您未來可以當一個民主的部長，然後把部長的職責也都做好。"],["洪部長申翰：如果沒有其他更重要的事情的話，我當然應該自己親自出席。"],["陳委員菁徽：對不起，召委，我問最後兩個問題，因為是有委員拜託幫忙問的。去年我們2月就與印度簽了MOU，但是11月勞動部召開記者會說，未來每2個月就會開一次會議，必要的話就開線上會議，所以今年1月應該要開，結果今年1月沒開。你1月的時候說2月會開，至今開了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們第一次工作會議已經開完了。"],["陳委員菁徽：2月幾號？"],["洪部長申翰：第一次工作會議開完了，我們也開了第二次工作會議前的會前會，目前臺印雙方在印度移工的引進上面，其實大家溝通是很密切的，因為委員們都很重視直聘的部分，所以目前的階段是我們也再更進一步的去了解印方相關的聘僱系統，印方也在了解我們對於直聘的期待。"],["陳委員菁徽：其實大家關心的是……"],["洪部長申翰：會前會已經開完了，現在是要再約下一次的工作會議。"],["陳委員菁徽：大概是幾月？"],["洪部長申翰：這要看印方的討論，可是跟印方的互動是很密切的。"],["陳委員菁徽：責任在印方？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，不是責任在印方，這是雙方，可是跟印方的溝通、跟印方的討論是很密切的。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們以後會按照原本約定的每2個月開會？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然希望儘量如此，但是現在是會前會開完，大家正在彼此熟悉對方一些細節的操作作法。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你覺得年底這個進度可以如期完成嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望，假設一切順利，因為前面只是1,000名小規模的試辦，我們當然希望順利，也是因為希望順利，所以我們其實私底下再去了解印方他們作法上面的細節，這個是很密切的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我希望下次還是可以維持2個月可以開會一次，就是依照你們的MOU。","最後一個問題，之前劉建國委員曾經提出，你們這個彈性育嬰假試辦計畫非常的糟糕，所以曾經減列還有凍結100萬的預算，待改善之後，提書面報告可以動支。林淑芬委員也說，勞動部不願意聽取民間團體的意見，一意孤行，成為一個注定失敗的試辦計畫。現在少子化非常的嚴重，剛剛提的在您之前的部長沒有親自到場的國家發展會議中也討論過這件事，國發會橫向溝通非常重要，請問一個月內可以給我一個書面報告嗎？等等我會寫一個臨時提案，假使我們從公部門開始來做這樣子的試辦計畫，您是否願意跟各部門做一個溝通呢？"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在很多單位，尤其是民間的單位，都希望以日來作為申請的單位，我們現在確實是在規劃擴大，所以跟過去試辦的範圍又不一樣，其實我們希望擴大規劃的階段。"],["陳委員菁徽：你也在公部門，我想如果以日為計算，並且以身作則，從公部門先行也是一個不錯的作法。"],["洪部長申翰：如果公部門要先來做，我們當然不會反對啊！可是我現在在想的是民間部門要怎麼做，這裡面有幾個條件，包括財源的部分，包括一些排班的作法，怎麼讓勞資雙方可以在一定可運作的範圍之下進行……"],["陳委員菁徽：這個我們再私底下溝通。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝，召委謝謝，謝謝部長。"],["主席：接續請王育敏委員質詢。邱鎮軍委員質詢完後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"160020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce3ec931abfb5ca20679a8b3a3b5782fdd03873e74607c39c28053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:27:01 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當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條"},{"start":148.874,"end":168.154,"text":"的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領先人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣"},{"start":169.756,"end":195.395,"text":"我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路"},{"start":196.155,"end":204.498,"text":"那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪"},{"start":221.072,"end":250.407,"text":"好 就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛 對不對我想這結論 我想這非常簡單啦所以呢 其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由 更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊 我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了 那大家也就無所依附了嘛"},{"start":251.047,"end":268.7,"text":"所以講台灣消失的言論不會被主流民意所接受但是違不違法這是另外一回事我再講一次很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法是另外一個層次的問題所以呢"},{"start":271.618,"end":299.397,"text":"我想言論自由的界限在哪裡 這個很重要我們必須告訴人民 什麼能講 什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西 似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實他已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土"},{"start":300.297,"end":325.828,"text":"不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下"},{"start":327.188,"end":337.786,"text":"那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢"},{"start":340.233,"end":356.46,"text":"過去民進黨追求100%研究結果 但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政次我想請教一下 部長最近的發言他認為說 教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同"},{"start":359.941,"end":379.996,"text":"我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以我對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你"},{"start":382.458,"end":409.247,"text":"今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸人民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五"},{"start":412.443,"end":437.815,"text":"小時候課本寫了做個堂堂正任中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同"},{"start":440.333,"end":467.558,"text":"愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎"},{"start":470.054,"end":480.432,"text":"所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛"},{"start":482.43,"end":505.407,"text":"所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國我以為你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講"},{"start":507.729,"end":530.686,"text":"還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我這不講誰大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別的你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊打輸的叫中華隊"},{"start":531.907,"end":555.689,"text":"這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連"},{"start":557.156,"end":572.496,"text":"上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長 不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要"},{"start":573.601,"end":588.458,"text":"老師怎麼教學生 要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的 這各種都是不一樣啊所以 好吧 反正這個不是教育部講 所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國 這個大家想法是怎麼樣"},{"start":589.919,"end":615.433,"text":"所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情障礙鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了"},{"start":617.588,"end":642.235,"text":"他對這塊的土地熱愛 其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下"},{"start":643.215,"end":660.949,"text":"這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法"},{"start":661.897,"end":683.762,"text":"不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答"},{"start":690.134,"end":700.839,"text":"這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱舉報。這就是妨害名譽這部分,都有涉及仇恨性的言論。"},{"start":714.192,"end":740.649,"text":"誹謗跟供罕無辱這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被念法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性言論因為這個戰爭有這些仇恨性的言論"},{"start":741.709,"end":766.489,"text":"這個講仇恨性能夠講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦那個我已經好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音那我們就先說在那個整個一個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛"},{"start":770.017,"end":786.85,"text":"這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊我來跟各位報告 至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下 我國是成文法國家"},{"start":787.791,"end":812.637,"text":"以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範他犯罪否則基本上他是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人"},{"start":813.297,"end":839.948,"text":"鼓吹 蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條就他們也念了公正公約20條的條文結果他念的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條他所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律"},{"start":841.048,"end":868.951,"text":"是這個規定國家必須定出法律而不是告訴人民說你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法就是當國家定出法律之後人民加以違法那叫做違法這叫做所以這就回到我剛說的這是我國的罪行法定主義是這樣所以呢今天這兩位委員一直提公正公約二十條所以今天有人在網路上面講梧桐兩個字這個是違法"},{"start":870.472,"end":898.032,"text":"其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼是過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼"},{"start":899.893,"end":927.906,"text":"十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛"},{"start":928.766,"end":950.576,"text":"至少從構成要件來看 有嗎好 那不管有沒有 那我再請教一下有網紅啊 在他的歌曲裡面 就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來 你到底打不打那請問一下 這個有沒有違反 違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位"},{"start":956.052,"end":984.695,"text":"好吧 那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類 那你就違法"},{"start":985.456,"end":1004.038,"text":"你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我在這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關"},{"start":1005.459,"end":1030.873,"text":"那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好那我這次跟法務部要資料部長啊我給你請教一下說啊到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過有開過一次"},{"start":1034.395,"end":1046.486,"text":"那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個"},{"start":1050.478,"end":1067.393,"text":"這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性"},{"start":1068.334,"end":1083.146,"text":"甚至一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界限在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個"},{"start":1085.968,"end":1111.826,"text":"你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請 不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":1113.686,"end":1142.471,"text":"陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義"},{"start":1144.371,"end":1171.802,"text":"第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委"},{"start":1173.393,"end":1195.606,"text":"如果他只有居留權 他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣 但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留 也許他是來停留或者是來觀光"},{"start":1196.869,"end":1217.02,"text":"他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他"},{"start":1221.903,"end":1246.013,"text":"中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣"},{"start":1249.358,"end":1257.134,"text":"第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定"},{"start":1258.086,"end":1283.501,"text":"有身份證的話 因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣"},{"start":1284.221,"end":1313.604,"text":"我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果您有身份證的當初的陸配"},{"start":1314.224,"end":1338.871,"text":"那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解"},{"start":1339.491,"end":1361.255,"text":"好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是"},{"start":1361.855,"end":1373.771,"text":"那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求"},{"start":1375.53,"end":1395.629,"text":"還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義或抗中保台口號的名義或國家安全的名義在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權"},{"start":1396.144,"end":1418.963,"text":"那就是看誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位 他們都不是我們那個 副主委我已經說了 我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講 我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在"},{"start":1419.824,"end":1445.819,"text":"十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派"},{"start":1446.826,"end":1451.486,"text":"我沒有說要繩子款 我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好 那謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時27分）麻煩請教育部政次、陸委會副主委、法務部部長及司法院廳長。"],["主席：請教育部、陸委會、法務部及司法院。"],["吳委員宗憲：首先我先簡單破題講一下，這段時間我受夠了很多不明的網軍，總是對我們的發言斷章取義，所以我現在先說明一下，第一個，我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案，你們也請不要用個案來回答我；第二個，對於所有只要是對我們這塊土地有侵害的外來武力，我們都予以反抗，我們一定都會出來反抗，而且對於所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的人，我們都予以譴責。回過頭來我講到重點，但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受，但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由。比如有些言論不被我們喜歡，但是是不是有到達違法，或用法律加以處罰？其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的概念，所以我在上個會期的時候有提到，我自己在1990年的時候參加野百合學運，一直到後續也有廢止動員戡亂時期臨時條款，後來我再參加廢除刑法一百條的活動。其實我一直在追求的就是所謂百分之百的言論自由，所以今天很多民進黨委員在這邊講鄭南榕多麼啟發他，其實鄭南榕所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點，他所說的在面對槍口之下，他也是追求百分之百言論自由，或是像楊照所說的，鄭南榕到死都還是堅守百分之百的言論自由。我想這些東西現在在一些民進黨政客的嘴裡面，其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榕的精神。","我繼續提一下，當年為什麼我會參加廢除刑法第一百條的活動，主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初枝教授，他先生是林山田，林山田本來就是廢除刑法第一百條的領銜人，所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們，而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到臺灣，我們當時是這樣，我們都在追求這個。但是在刑法第一百條修正之前，其實第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制，第一項在修正之後，也加上了許多必須要有強暴脅迫的實際行為，這時候才會加以限制。所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法第一百條來追求人民的言論自由，為什麼到今天反而走回頭路？我想請問一下法務部跟司法院，如果有人在網路上面發表要顛覆賴清德政府，請問這有沒有成立內亂罪？這應該很簡單吧？請問這有沒有成立內亂罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於單純的主張而已。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛，對不對？我想這個結論非常簡單。所以其實賴總統前天說的，他說任何鼓吹剝奪臺灣人民自由，主張讓中華民國臺灣消失的倡議，都不是臺灣社會能夠接受的言論自由，而百分之百的言論自由更不是利用自由來消滅自由。基本上，我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話，畢竟沒有國家了，那大家也就無所依附了嘛。所以要講臺灣消失的言論，這不會被主流民意所接受，但是違不違法是另外一回事。我再講一次，很多言論不被主流民意所接受，但是違不違法，這是另外一個層次的問題。","事實上，言論自由的界限在哪裡？這個很重要，我們必須告訴人民什麼能講、什麼不能講，但是政府對於這個東西卻似乎完全沒有很明確的規範，就像這次法務部跟司法院都有提到的釋字445號跟644號，其實它已經講得很明確了，國家不可以單純因為集會遊行團體主張「共產主義或分裂國土」為理由，不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可。所以我們從這個釋字可以很明確的了解，所謂限制人民的言論自由必須要有兩個要件，第一個要明確，我們法律要有明確性；第二個要有立即的危險。所以當有這兩個要件的時候，你加以限制是完全正確的嘛，但是今天如果不是的情況下，其實是不應該立法加以限制，你只能說它是一個不入流、一個不好的言論，但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範嘛。所以過去民進黨追求百分之百言論自由，但到今天似乎又變了。","繼續請教教育部政次，有關部長最近的發言，他認為教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識，要確保國家認同。我認同這一句話，因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我，叫我做到兩件事就是愛國和孝順，這我公開講過很多次，我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到，所以我對於國家認同、對於愛國，我是非常重視這個行為。我請教一下，部長這麼說了，我請教政次，今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做，要求老師要這麼宣導，那我請教您一個問題，所謂的國家認同是以下哪一個？一、憲法所講的中華民國？二、兩岸人民關係所講的臺灣地區以及大陸地區？三、臺獨，也就是臺灣獨立、主權獨立的臺灣國？四、蔡英文政府所說的堅持維持現狀的臺灣？五、小時候課本寫的做個堂堂正正的中國人。請問這五個哪一個是我們的國家認同？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想部長已經講得很清楚嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：那你等於沒回答我啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：他就是中華民國的教育工作者嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：你等於沒回答我！請問這五個是哪一個？我講一個最簡單的，您今天貴為次長，你也是政治人物出身，我非常尊重您，但是如果貴為政次，而且是政治人物出身的人，都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同，愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的？我剛講的就五個，這五個也是非常明確……"],["張廖次長萬堅：是中華民國臺灣……"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個是憲法；第二個是兩岸人民關係條例；第三個是大家講的臺獨；第四個是蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的臺灣；還是第五個，小時候課本說的堂堂正正的中國人？這五個是哪一個？我要效忠哪一個？或我要認同哪一個？那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同？請教次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：你有講到憲法嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：所以呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我剛才在報告的時候有提到，就是我們講的言論自由是根據憲法第二條……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，這五個選項很簡單嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：在憲法上，現在是中華民國嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以呢？今天你說的是，部長你認為的國家認同是憲法的中華民國？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，你簡報秀出來的就有提到嘛，不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者，所以這個講的很清楚，沒有問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那沒關係，我剛就講有五個。但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講啦，還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難，本來一開始說中華民國是災難，後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難，我就不講誰，大家也都知道。","現在我跟各位報告，搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講臺灣，你不能講別的，你講臺灣以外，就叫做中共同路人，所以打球打贏叫臺灣隊，打輸的叫中華隊，這只會出現在荒謬的臺灣才有這個狀況，其實這很離譜。但是我還是跟各位說，我不討厭民進黨的人，我不痛恨他們，但是我超級熱愛這塊土地，我就是熱愛這塊土地，所以我從小認為愛國是很重要的事情，可是你今天反而混淆了我，到底我的國家認同要在哪裡？如果今天連上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚，都無法確定了，或是說的跟做的不一樣，就像部長在喊說臺灣國的什麼什麼……這是部長說的，不是教育部長，連劉部長都說了我們臺灣國怎麼樣，那試問老師要怎麼教學生？學生要怎麼遵循？就我剛講的，這各種都是不一樣啊！","好吧，反正這個不是教育部長說的，所以我也不適合問次長對於有部長在台上喊臺灣國的想法是怎麼樣，我是覺得這樣搞下去臺灣會變得很對立，是對立的社會，似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的概念或定義的話，那你就是中共同路人。事實上我剛講的，我不恨民進黨員，我以前很堅持支持民進黨的「清廉、勤政、愛鄉土」，但是今天他們變了，是他們變了，不是我變了，他們對這塊土地的熱愛，其實我已經看不到了。","我再跟各位報告一件事情，TVBS前幾天的網路投票，有77.4%的人認為賴總統上任之後，言論自由被限縮很多，9.3%認為被限縮了一些。也就是說超過八成五的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重，這個給各位參考一下，這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由，也不是我一生遵從鄭南榕的言論自由所引導出今天臺灣的這個現狀。所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡，但是不代表它就是違法，不被人民喜歡的言論，它也不代表就會動搖臺灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀。","我再請教法務部跟司法院，我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪？請回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，現行法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論，包括仇恨性言論，譬如刑法第一百條、第一百零一條、第第一百零三條、第三百零九條、第三百十條、第一百十五條，還有社維法的第六十三條……"],["吳委員宗憲：第三百零九條、第三百十條？公然侮辱誹謗？"],["鄭部長銘謙：妨害名譽這部分都有涉及仇恨性的言論……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有啦！誹謗跟公然侮辱跟鼓吹戰爭有什麼關係？"],["鄭部長銘謙：仇恨性的言論……"],["吳委員宗憲：第三百零九條、第三百十條……"],["鄭部長銘謙：鼓吹戰爭的言論這部分，我們當然可以更明確化，但是有涉及的條文是有這些，跟仇恨性的言論。"],["吳委員宗憲：我覺得部長你這樣講太包山包海了，這講出去會被唸法律的人笑啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是說可能有涉及到這部分，仇恨性言論，因為戰爭有時候就有仇恨性的言論。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有講仇恨性，我講的就是戰爭，簡單來說譬如有人喊武統，我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律？有沒有？如果部長總是搞不清楚，那廳長呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會搞不清楚啦，我已經……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那你跟我說哪一條，你再跟我說一次，第三百零九條、第三百十條講出去，線上看到的法官、檢察官應該會笑出聲音。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那我們就講內亂外患、通謀開戰罪這部分嘛，還有散布謠言，我想這部分……"],["吳委員宗憲：這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊！好，沒關係，我來跟各位報告，至少我自己基本認為，目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法。我再跟各位報告一下，我國是成文法國家，以及我國的罪行法定原則，也就是你的行為除非法律有規範是犯罪的，否則基本上是不會構成犯罪，所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及成文法國家的這個概念。今天有兩位民進黨的委員，一位沈姓委員、一位吳姓委員，他們兩位一直在講公政公約第二十條，他說某人鼓吹講武統，這個部分怎麼會沒有違法？這是公政公約第二十條，他們也唸了公政公約第二十條的條文，結果他唸的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣，他連法律都沒有搞懂。公政公約第二十條是任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之。也就是公政公約二十條所課予的義務是國家必須制定出法律，是這個規定，國家必須制定出法律，而不是告訴人民，你講這個就是違法。什麼情況下會違法？就是當國家制定出法律之後，人民加以違反，那叫做違法，所以這就回到我剛才說的，這是我國的罪行法定主義，是這樣的。今天這兩位委員一直提公政公約第二十條，所以今天有人在網路上面講武統兩個字，就說這個是違法，其實這是完全錯誤的概念，這個也是對於法律認知思考跳躍，這個邏輯完全中斷，思考跳躍才會發生這個說法。所以對於公政公約第二十條第一項，我們該檢討的是什麼？過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位，為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來？為什麼沒有？2009年公政公約就已經生效了，為什麼十幾年下來，國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來？結果今天有某一個人在網路上面講了這句話之後，你就說這個違反公政公約第二十條，可是公政公約第二十條是要求國家去立這個法律，我想這個是很明確的，至於有一些人要思考跳躍的去解釋法律，那我就予以尊重。所以又回到我剛剛說的，我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛，至少從構成要件來看有嗎？","那不管有沒有，我再請教一下。有網紅在他的歌曲裡面要求中國大陸，他說：求你趕快打過來，你到底打不打？請問這個有沒有違反法律規定？這個是不是鼓吹戰爭？我想請教兩位。好吧，沒有辦法回答就算了。我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人，尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安，你一方面說有人在講武統或武裝，我也很討厭那個言論，我也絕對譴責講這些話的人，但是這在法律上面要怎麼去定位，法律是不是要符合法律明確性，告訴大家言論自由的界線在哪裡，而不是今天你非我族類，那你就違法，你是我同一掛人，所以你今天叫中國大陸趕快打過來，問他到底打不打，結果卻沒事。我今天必須點出這個，從法律的角度來告訴大家，公政公約被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解，公政公約課予的對象是國家以及行政機關、立法機關，今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前，你不能說人民他這個行為違法，你可以說他不道德，你可以說他這樣不好，你可以說要譴責他這個說法，但是你沒辦法說他違法，我特地跟各位做這樣的報告。","另外，我這次跟法務部要資料，我請教部長到底這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法？你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2日已經開過一次會，現在過了一年多了，現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到。第二個，我給你要資料，你又回覆我不提供會議紀錄，因為依據政府資訊公開法第十八條第一項第三款，研修紀錄是不能公開的，但是請你看一下那個條文有一個但書，那個但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開，我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性，跟公益也有關聯性，甚至一個人到底能在網路上面講什麼、不能講什麼，或者是有人講了被辦，有人講了卻沒事，到底範圍界限在哪裡，這部分毫不明確，所以我下次還是會再行文跟你們要；如果你再跟我提政府資訊公開法而不給我的話，我覺得這個跟公益有關，我還是希望你們能夠公開。另外都已經一年多了，這部分到現在都沒有進度，這也是我想要點出來的，讓大家知道法務部在這一塊事情的處理上就是在怠惰。","不好意思耽誤到大家的時間。最後，我想請問一下陸委會，我有拜讀你們的資料，副主委剛剛在口頭報告的時候也提到一個點，你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同，需要有較高的管制，這個部分我不評論，也都予以尊重，因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等，所以必須對他們有高強度的管制，我就先不評論這件事情。但是我想請教你對陸配的定義，第一個，只有居留權的陸配才需要高強度的管制？第二個，取得身分證後的陸配也要高強度的管制嗎？第三個，如果是在中國大陸出生、成長、受教育，但後來入籍他國或港澳，然後再與我國人結婚。請教副主委，這三種在管制上面是一致適用高強度管制，還是有所區別？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果他只有居留權，他能夠住在臺灣是因為我們給他特許，讓他住在臺灣，當然我們可以隨時取消這個特許權。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以對他的管制就會比較更高一點，他不一定要居留，也許他來是停留或是觀光，如果他講出類似違背國家利益或者干擾社會秩序的言論，那我們就不歡迎；但如果他拿到身分證或是定居，我們在定居留許可辦法中也有相對的條文。至於委員說的第三種狀況，是指中國大陸人士拿到美國籍，然後跟臺灣人結婚，那我們會看他拿到美國籍或是其他國家的國籍有多久的時間，基本上我們會用四年來算，就是你拿到其他國家的國籍四年之後，我們才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我們這邊先了解一下，第一個，對於只有居留證的陸配，你們認為要有比較高強度的管制，但對持有身分證的部分，我剛沒有聽清楚，請問你們怎麼認定？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對於有身分證者，我們在定居留許可辦法裡面也有相應的條文，跟居留的部分有點類似；這個部分應該這麼說，就是臺灣跟大陸之間的狀況很特殊，所以我們的兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候，它就跟國籍法不一樣，我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候，跟臺灣與其他國家的是不同……"],["吳委員宗憲：這個我都沒有意見，我也都認同，副主委不用解釋，臺灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別，這個OK，我的意思是，不管怎麼樣，我們對人民任何的行政處分都要明確，法律明確性原則是法律最基本的概念。所以我現在要確認的是，第一個，對有居留權的陸配管制會比較嚴格，而我剛剛請教的是對領有身分證的陸配要不要嚴格？我只是要問這個問題而已！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣講，我們既然給他身分證，原則上，我們是把他當作是中華民國國民……"],["吳委員宗憲：對他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：有他國國籍的部分就是以四年來當作判斷的標準？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個我可以了解。最後，我要提的是，我還是反對任何武統言論，只要有任何武力要侵害對我們這塊土地，我都願意出來對抗，所以不要扣我們什麼帽子，只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共，沒有這種事情！臺灣是大家的，臺灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地，不是我不認同你的邏輯，那我就是那個誰的同路人。我跟你講，這個就是把人民二分法，搞激烈對抗，然後獲取政治利益而已，這其實很沒水準！不管怎麼樣，我對言論自由的追求還是一樣百分之百的言論自由，但我也不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的名義，或抗中保臺口號的名義，或國家安全的名義，在沒有法律授權、沒有法律明確性的情況下，去侵害憲法第十一條所保障的人民言論自由的基本人權。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那就看誰是人民，我們這一次處理的幾位，他們都不是我們的人民，不是中華民國的國民。"],["吳委員宗憲：副主委，我一開始就已經說了，我不講個案，我剛剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由，我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民。我跟你講，我在十幾歲的時候就跟著野百合學運，二十幾歲跟著廢除刑法一百條，一路這樣走過來……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我也是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們以前追求的是什麼？今天鄭南榕變成很多人的提款機，但他還是我心裡面所堅持的理想；今天你要扣別人這個帽子，講一些有的沒有的，我是不太能接受，但我尊重各位的發言內容。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：鄭南榕是前輩，但他並不是神主牌。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有說他神主牌，我是說大家不要把他當作提款機來用。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：接下來，我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"160018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce74548c9eccd9bbadb899a01abdeb36335ac7c33fa4103456a5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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主席 各位委員 請部長請部長部長好 今天的議題來台旅客這個部分 是你的報告裡面也特別提到這個113比這個疫情之前108來的"},{"start":37.866,"end":52.095,"text":"有恢復但是我們如果從整體來看我們就看108好了108這個好這張108整個總數來台的旅客的總數跟到113年的總數的落差就少了"},{"start":68.028,"end":96.01,"text":"少了這麼多千萬、十萬、百萬、四百萬四百萬而這少了四百萬這樣的一個情形之下減少最多的就是中國大陸然後其次就是日本也少很多日本、香港、澳門、亞洲所以這樣的一個數字這個當然很重要的"},{"start":97.148,"end":105.394,"text":"怎麼樣讓這些原來會來的那個回復這是最重要當然"},{"start":106.998,"end":135.618,"text":"這日本為什麼會減少有知道原因嗎報告委員這兩年日幣的匯率比較不好那造成日本人其實他們出國的意願降低了非常多所以日本人比較不太出國玩但我們前年跟去年相比我們去年的這個日課的成長率達到百分之四十幾比前年的話這個中國大陸的部分我就不多說了這個你也很清楚"},{"start":137.985,"end":166.37,"text":"事實上他們也願意,這群馬一開始講金馬後來福建,福建要過來所以這個部份,部長我是建議部長去協調陸委會然後行政院院長當然要請他支持還是要溝通,兩岸能夠交流"},{"start":167.509,"end":179.843,"text":"才能夠更和平兩岸才能夠更和平另外就是說花蓮台東的交通花東第七發展條例"},{"start":181.076,"end":200.263,"text":"規定得很清楚為改善花東地區對外運輸服務滿足花東地區基民聯外交通及產業發展的需求交通部應提高鐵路運輸能量及縮短行車時間並提升公路安全性及可靠性"},{"start":202.487,"end":228.174,"text":"我們行政院的施政方針優化環島鐵路網當然包含東部的鐵路優化東部公路的交通網但是很重要的這個0403的地震所造成的北回線院長都去了部長更是去了很多次這個"},{"start":231.616,"end":236.587,"text":"台鐵也提出了這個台鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫64.1億元"},{"start":240.866,"end":268.359,"text":"這個部分交通部什麼時候可以送到行政院報告委員這個部分計畫正在做那交通部對於這樣子的計畫應該也都是很支持這個部分是一定得做的那我們計畫什麼時候可以提出來是不是請台鐵這邊報告委員因為這個計畫按程序先經過我們董事會現在董事會已經討論通過了我們現在已經呈報到交通部我知道你們董事會通過而且"},{"start":269.74,"end":292.938,"text":"也曾經送過又退回去又送了嘛對現在已經修正過了再提到到江部我們會盡快跟江部主動來做聯繫讓這個計畫我們這邊如果審查完成之後就會盡快來送我知道我上次就禮拜一我就問過台鐵就已經送了其實我一直都在中這個案子部分"},{"start":294.118,"end":319.636,"text":"請交通部能夠盡快趕快核定要送行政院當然也要協調行政院趕快核定因為這個蘇花安我諮詢過很多次108年12月20號可行性研究行政院核定的可行性研究過期蘇花改兩年就核定這個計畫現在五年多了"},{"start":324.01,"end":345.034,"text":"從可行性研究核定之後到現在已經五年多了這個行政院還沒有核定所以這個問題你們也已經送去了本席也一直新聞給行政院一直協調給行政院也要請部長要跟院長報告趕快核定最後"},{"start":351.284,"end":372.27,"text":"票價的部分我在這邊也值了上上禮拜也值所以這個部分這個花東的票價整個台鐵的6月23號要開始了這個部分尤其是台北到花蓮調漲的幅度32.51%比這個"},{"start":379.417,"end":391.645,"text":"平均條幅26.8%真的是很高而事實上花蓮車站在過去整個台鐵的過去西部是虧損的就是靠花蓮車站"},{"start":405.154,"end":409.064,"text":"這個一直是賺錢的所以這個部分也必須去考量這個你們說要"},{"start":412.253,"end":433.812,"text":"有一個怎麼樣的優惠報告委員我們會討論優惠方案一方面是包含花東的鄉親居住在那邊的居民他們的優惠方案我們正在討論另外也鼓勵花東的鄉親可以加入台鐵的常客優惠方案他們有個常客優惠方案如果加入的話他也會打折"},{"start":434.652,"end":457.625,"text":"所以整體來說的話影響我們會盡量讓它降低這是4月7號的新聞當然我那天也有質詢你說要延誼那什麼時候可以完成延誼報告委員其實623還沒到啦真正的漲價還沒到所以623之前我們就可以延誼完成還是要提早好不好好我們盡快謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1200,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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報告委員過去從來沒有管過這件事情交通部從過去到現在沒有管過這件事情那也確實我們發現說有許多的車輛它的這個隔熱紙貼得太過黑那造成晚上在駕車的時候確實是有一些危險的那我們也希望說未來我們希望能夠讓民眾的這個隔熱紙有一定的規範例如說前檔應該多少前側應該多少這個是針對駕駛"},{"start":61.838,"end":86.649,"text":"我大概有看到一些數據那我看到了70%那70%你這個是怎麼來的報告員這個目前都還在討論當中OK我希望你能夠在就是說要進入法治化的時候你可以考量眼科醫師的建議好不好好沒有問題這個需要的我大概按照我的理解來看就是說你的前場剝離是70%可是你知道美國是怎麼做的嗎"},{"start":87.689,"end":100.197,"text":"委員請指教就是說它其實它的前檔玻璃不是指全部Windseal不是它是只有那個眉毛的部分也就是4到6英寸是70%其實前面是不能加"},{"start":101.345,"end":117.691,"text":"隔日子的那因為我如果你就一個行人來說我必須看到駕駛人員不再注意我沒錯對啊我裡面的人說不定沒有看到我那大家的互相的一個所謂的互相的一個戒心啊那常常發生車禍或者是"},{"start":119.372,"end":133.78,"text":"這個時間點大概都是昏暗的時候也就是大概早上4點到6點還有或者是下午下班時間那你就知道說其實彎線對開車來講是非常重要那美國會定70%的原因他是指前那個眉毛的部分"},{"start":134.921,"end":151.721,"text":"他是因為他的路又大又寬沒有那麼多車子啊可是我們台灣是車子非常多行為非常多所以我在我在想這個部分你還是要去考慮進去或者說應該是禁止是說前檔這邊只能裝眉毛其他的部分我是覺得說大家都可以有自己的意見"},{"start":152.282,"end":180.965,"text":"報委員這個部分各國的案例我們都會拿來做參考也會參考您在所說的美國的部分那另外也要考慮幾件事第一台灣的氣候我們是東南亞國家所以台灣的氣候我們有考量在內第二因為過去大家都貼了很多的隔熱紙而且貼的比較黑我們不要造成民眾的負擔的狀況底下來推行這個政策那第三就是說我們要讓這個廠商有辦法提供我們未來要去管制的這樣子的隔熱紙"},{"start":182.006,"end":201.941,"text":"所以廠商的溝通也是很重要的無論它的材質它的顏色這些應該都要考量進去那美國它也有說其實可以擋全部的隔熱紙的它是有一些例外的可是它必須取得一些的證明說它不能曬到太陽所以這些也要被考慮進去可以嗎了解"},{"start":202.842,"end":212.331,"text":"那最後因為我是來自原住民地區還是要跟你來討論一下蘭嶼機場的事情蘭嶼機場從大概2019嘛2019就開始在弄就9億9億的錢花下去到現在飛機還是常常停飛那後來2023年又說又再補助12億結果還是"},{"start":225.023,"end":235.409,"text":"沒有看到願景他們的願景是希望看到說至少可以看到ATR飛機能夠飛到蘭嶼現在是那個19人坐的不知道部長你有沒有坐過"},{"start":236.727,"end":260.321,"text":"我過去蘭嶼的時候不是坐19人座的這個如果你有坐過19人座的話你一定不太敢再坐第二次那我的意思是說它是他們日常生活必須要用的一個飛機我覺得不能虧待蘭嶼應該蘭嶼他應該要跟澎湖 金門 馬祖一樣都有ATR至少那個40幾人座的那個至少讓大家覺得說坐起來比較安心可是你花了這麼多錢9.1 12.1過去了"},{"start":262.402,"end":291.21,"text":"還是常常停飛啊你你覺得你你也想幫你再想這個問題嗎報告委員蘭嶼有他特殊的天候啦你也應該很清楚他的天候的狀況這個跟飛航有絕對的關係好然後再來就是跑道的長度也一定會影響到他能夠停的什麼樣的飛機那這個部分其實民航局做了很多的改善我們第一要務是希望他能夠安全第一要務是安全第二才去思考運量他那個德安航空到期以後"},{"start":292.11,"end":318.943,"text":"簽約到期後下次的簽約的飛機能不能再大一點因為不是還是這個19人座局長回答好不好向委員報告剛剛有提到講的比較大的一個飛機是那個ATR42600的那個是42人座不過它所需要的跑道也要比較長那它抗側風的能力其實跟現在的這個機型是一樣的就是每小時不能超過25公里也就是說還是不能期待它未來有這種飛機嗎"},{"start":320.604,"end":335.463,"text":"永遠都沒有辦法期待嗎不是我是說現行來講那至於下一次的應該是在因為這個約會到119年那我們會在那個之前再來看看當時市面上再來看看我們只是要推動觀光啦希望這部分能夠考量謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1159,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（13時27分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好。今天第一個要跟你就教的問題是，我看到交通部有公告，針對擋風玻璃隔熱紙的透光率在6月還是今年年底的時候要有一個法規，或者是法制化，我希望知道你的想法。"],["陳部長世凱：是。報告委員，交通部從過去到現在從來沒有管過這件事情，也確實我們發現有許多車輛的隔熱紙貼得太過黑，造成晚上在駕車的時候確實有一些危險，我們也希望未來能夠針對車輛隔熱紙的透光率有一定的規範，例如說前擋的透光率應該多少，前側應該多少，這個是針對駕駛的部分……"],["盧委員縣一：好。我大概看到一些數據，比如我看到70%，你這個70%是怎麼來的？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分目前都還在討論當中，還在討論當中。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我希望你在要進入法制化的時候，能夠考量眼科醫師的建議，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒有問題，這是需要的。"],["盧委員縣一：按照我的理解來看，你的前擋玻璃是70%，可是你知道美國是怎麼做的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：請委員指教。"],["盧委員縣一：其實他的前擋玻璃不是指全部的windshield，不是……"],["陳部長世凱：我知道。"],["盧委員縣一：而是只有眉毛的位置，也就是4到6英寸是70%，其實前面是不能加隔熱紙的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["盧委員縣一：因為如果就行人來說，我必須看到駕駛人有沒有在注意我……"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["盧委員縣一：對啊，車內的人說不定沒有看到我，那樣大家互相要有一個所謂的戒心啦。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["盧委員縣一：常常發生車禍的時間點大概都是昏暗的時候，也就是大概早上4點到6點，或者是下午的下班時間，你就知道其實光線對開車來講非常重要。美國會定70%的原因，他是指眉毛的位置，因為他的路又大又寬，沒有那麼多車子，可是我們臺灣是車子非常多，行人也非常多，所以我在想這個percent的部分，你還是要考慮進去，或者應該只能在眉毛位置的前擋玻璃貼隔熱紙，至於其他的部分，我是覺得大家都可以有自己的意見。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分各國的案例我們都會拿來做參考，也會參考您現在所說的美國的部分，另外也要考慮幾件事：第一，臺灣的氣候，我們是東南亞國家，所以臺灣的氣候我們也會考量在內；第二，因為過去大家都貼了很多隔熱紙，而且貼得比較黑，我們要考量在不造成民眾負擔的狀況底下來推行這個政策；第三，我們要讓廠商，在未來管制之後，有辦法提供合規的隔熱紙，所以跟廠商的溝通也是很重要的，我們也在做。"],["盧委員縣一：是的，無論它的材質、顏色這些應該都要考量進去。"],["陳部長世凱：對、對、對。"],["盧委員縣一：美國的規定有一些例外是可以擋風玻璃全部貼上隔熱紙的，可是他必須取得醫師的證明，證明他不能曬到太陽，所以這些人也要被考慮進去，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，了解。"],["盧委員縣一：最後，因為我來自原住民地區，還是要跟你討論一下蘭嶼機場的事情。蘭嶼機場從大概2019年就開始弄，結果9億元花下去，到現在飛機還是常常停飛，後來2023年又再補助12億，結果還是沒有看到願景。他們的願景是希望至少可以看到ATR飛機能夠飛到蘭嶼，現在飛的是19人座的飛機，不知道部長你有沒有坐過？"],["陳部長世凱：我去蘭嶼的時候搭的不是19人座的飛機。"],["盧委員縣一：如果你有坐過19人座的話，你一定不太敢再坐第二次，我的意思是說，那是他們日常生活必須要用的飛機。我覺得不能虧待蘭嶼，蘭嶼應該要跟澎湖、金門、馬祖一樣，都有至少四十幾人座的ATR飛機，至少讓大家覺得坐起來比較安心。可是你花了這麼多錢，9億、12億都投進去了，還是常常停飛，你有在想這個問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，蘭嶼有它特殊的天候，你也應該很清楚它的天候狀況……"],["盧委員縣一：知道。"],["陳部長世凱：這個跟飛航有絕對的關係。然後再來就是跑道的長度，也一定會影響到它能夠停什麼樣的飛機，這個部分其實民航局做了很多改善，我們第一要務是希望它能夠安全，第一要務是安全，第二才去思考運量。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道德安航空契約到期以後，下次簽約的飛機能不能再大一點？而不是還是19人座的。"],["陳部長世凱：我請局長回答，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：向委員報告，剛剛提到比較大的飛機是ATR42-600型的，那是42人座，不過它所需要的跑道也比較長，它抗側風的能力其實跟現在的機型是一樣的，就是每小時不能超過25……"],["盧委員縣一：也就是說我還是不能期待它未來會有這種飛機嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：對，就是說不會……"],["盧委員縣一：永遠都沒有辦法期待嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：不是，我是說就現行來講，至於下一次的應該是在……因為這個契約到119年，契約屆期前我們會再來看看當時市面上……"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我們一直說要推動觀光，希望這部分能夠考量。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是、是、是，好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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我要請教部長的就是說我剛才跟他說有什麼聖誕廟方就是說有什麼替代方案譬如說我們知道山里車站這個地方這是一個祕境那我們怎麼樣用什麼樣的"},{"start":227.597,"end":248.43,"text":"的方式去開發它讓增加一個更多為台東增加更多觀光的一個誘因啊我們常常說山不轉人就轉啊地方民眾也不是不講理啊也不叫你開山找隧道啊大家也是認為該保育就要保育啊尊重專業啊尊重你們啊所以本席在這個前提之下要來"},{"start":249.11,"end":268.855,"text":"跟部長來做一個建議就是說三里舊隧道我們如果沒辦法進一步去開放是不是研議替代方案譬如說你鐵馬的驛站還有主街道的整理還有導覽路線的一個設計等等這一些我們可不可以先來做布丁我覺得你們已經幾個月了"},{"start":270.879,"end":296.574,"text":"部長可不可以具體什麼報告委員您這個建議非常好山里舊隧道其實有它的觀光價值在但是本身不一定有辦法再進一步的開發一些生態上的限制還有地質上的限制不過委員在建議的這個替代方案我覺得觀光署應該好好做研究包含鐵馬驛站的部分還有主街道的整理還有導覽路線等等的設計我們在山里的周邊把整個觀光的配套把它做起來"},{"start":297.495,"end":312.493,"text":"即便是他那個隧道沒有進一步的開發他的整體的觀光價值還是可以顯現所以委員您今天交代我們就趕快來做這方面的研究我們就朝這個方向下去做謝謝部長先給你感謝我為什麼這樣講呢就是說其實我們也很清楚永續啊"},{"start":314.195,"end":330.689,"text":"低碳啊深度的體驗啊大家朗朗上口啊那也確實是我們那個交通部還有觀光署你們應該是責無旁貸有這麼好的一個地方的話我們主動去挖掘讓我們在東部這個地方啊"},{"start":331.269,"end":339.853,"text":"不要因為一場地震把整個觀光夢全部給震碎掉啦所以我謝謝部長這樣的一個承諾啦我必須要特別提出來就是說我們台東其實具有豐富的人文景觀跟有地方的故事還有原民文化非常適合去做一個體驗啦不然我們一直在說地方創生我去把它看看啦我16個行政區裡面啦我如果只為縱谷縣為海岸縣各個原民的地方看一看的話"},{"start":359.682,"end":384.468,"text":"很多地方到最後你都必須要去講到你們提出來就是說好啦 體驗啦 體驗啦那這麼好的地方政府如果沒有去好好規劃的話我覺得是實在是太可惜啦那我相信經過我們觀光署如果說大力去做一個規劃的話它一定是非常有吸引力的一個地方啦所以我再提醒一次就是說現在真的花東地區的觀光部長跟署長都非常清楚啦真的是慘啦"},{"start":389.289,"end":411.275,"text":"那怎麼樣帶入新的一個元素真的是要再搭一個新的一個舞台要帶給民眾這樣的一個希望啦交通部真的是有責任而且我這樣提出來以後不是只有你們有責任我認為你們本來就有能力我們本來就有能力啊那有能力但是我要說的就是說這裡有魅力有潛力的地方部長剛剛雖然答應啦但那個時間點啦"},{"start":415.572,"end":420.815,"text":"你們創古厝你們真的有去做多少工作時間點可不可以加速我們是不是今年就開始來啟動規劃好不好我意思是說比較積極的因為你這個山梨線改線通車這個十幾年了擺在那個地方你說山梨也不能再等啦台東真的也不能再等啦那這個如果我們交通部或者觀光署我們有更積極的一個態度的話"},{"start":441.989,"end":451.806,"text":"我覺得馬上可以啟動我們今年就來啟動這個規劃我們現在就來啟動要拜託觀光署跟台鐵我們兩邊一起來合作把山里這個地方好好規劃好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝我們台鐵感謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1139,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（13時19分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳世凱部長，還有觀光署周永暉署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長、署長，午安。幾個問題來請教，去年花蓮的一場大地震，還有接下來的幾次颱風，讓花東地區很多重要的觀光景點都受到重創。你看，譬如說，本席曾經帶隊去考察過的砂卡礑步道、山月村差不多都毀掉了，狀況真的是慘不忍睹，這個署長、部長應該都很清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：原本還有國旅團的遊覽車要排隊進去的這種盛況，現在人潮幾乎已經斷路了，當地的觀光業者幾乎也快撐不下去了。不過我也要藉此機會感謝部長跟署長，因為去年地震完以後其實不是只有花蓮慘，花蓮一慘的話，臺東跟著慘，所以臺東一些民宿還有觀光業者當時也跟部長和署長建議，讓臺東也能夠比照花蓮，然後也對業者做適度的補貼，這真的是及時雨，在這個地方特別表示感謝。但我想請教的就是，政府除了補貼以外還有沒有什麼樣的仙丹，有沒有什麼樣的妙方？本席認為交通部或者觀光署更應該要主動出擊，真的要主動出擊去規劃，或者說去打造新的觀光據點，讓更多人更有理由走進花東。","我舉個例子，比如臺東卑南鄉山里的舊隧道就是一個非常有潛力的地方，卑南鄉在2021年的時候就被列為觀光經典小鎮，那個地方擁有舊鐵道、車站遺址、原民文化、自然生態等豐沛的觀光資源。在這個地方我也藉此機會為臺東鄉親請命，部長，這個部分看能不能由交通部觀光署來做一個規劃。我記得你前任的部長林佳龍部長，政府是延續一體的嘛，前面部長答應過的事情，我看後面在做一定是你們也有專業去做評估。林部長任內他也喊出觀光轉型跟地方創生的願景，我相信這個理念，任何人接任部長，我相信大家都會覺得是很通的，但是提出這樣的概念，倒也不是只看網紅的景點，更要看到原鄉、偏鄉這些比較沒有被注意到的地方。","當時交通部底下的縱管處也做了不少工作，比如說他做了可行性評估、地質調查還有生態調查，這些都做了，做出來以後知道1號到7號隧道這個地方地質比較敏感，因為地震加上地質敏感，然後還有是蝙蝠的棲地，不適合再做大規模的開發，這個在地的民眾也都了解，也都尊重這樣的一個專業。可是我要請教部長的就是，我們剛才在說有什麼仙丹妙方就是說有什麼替代的方案，比如說我們知道山里車站這個地方是一個秘境，我們用什麼樣的方式去開發它，讓臺東增加更多觀光的誘因。","我們常常在說「山不轉人就轉」，地方民眾也不是不講理，也沒有叫你要開山鑿隧道，大家也認為該保育就要保育，也尊重你們的專業，所以在這個前提之下，本席要跟部長提一個建議就是，山里舊隧道如果沒辦法進一步去開發，是不是能夠研議替代方案，比如說設置鐵馬驛站，還有主街道的整理，還有導覽路線等等的設計，這一些我們可不可以先來做？部長，我覺得你們已經規劃那麼久了，部長，可不可以具體承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您這個建議非常好，山里舊隧道其實有它的觀光價值在，但是本身不一定有辦法再進一步的開發，有些生態上的限制還有地質上的限制，不過委員建議的替代方案，我覺得觀光署應該好好做研究，包含鐵馬驛站的部分，還有主街道的整理，還有導覽路線等等的設計，我們在山里的周邊把整個觀光的配套做起來，即便是它那個隧道沒有進一步的開發，它整體的觀光價值還是可以顯現，所以委員您今天交代，我們就趕快來做這方面的研究，我們就朝這個方向下去做。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝部長，先跟你感謝。我為什麼這樣講呢？其實我們也很清楚，永續、低碳、深度的體驗，大家都琅琅上口，也確實交通部還有觀光署，你們應該責無旁貸，有這麼好的一個地方，我們要主動去挖掘，讓我們的東部地區，不要因為一場地震，把整個觀光夢全部給震碎掉，所以我謝謝部長這樣的承諾。","我必須要特別提出來的就是，我們臺東其實具有豐富的人文景觀跟地方的故事，還有原民文化，非常適合去做體驗。不然我們一直在說地方創生，我去把它看一看，16個行政區裡面，如果只往縱谷線、往海岸線，還有一些原民的地方看一看的話，很多地方到最後你都必須要去講到，你們提出來的就是說，好啦，體驗、體驗。這麼好的地方，政府如果沒有好好規劃的話，我覺得實在是太可惜了，我相信觀光署如果大力去做規劃的話，它一定是非常有吸引力的一個地方。","所以我再提醒一次就是，現在整個花東地區的觀光，部長跟署長都非常清楚，真的是慘，怎麼樣帶入新的元素，真的是要再搭一個新的舞臺，要帶給民眾一個希望，交通部真的是有責任。而且我這樣提出來以後，不是只有你們有責任，我認為你們本來就有能力，但是我要說的就是，這麼有魅力、有潛力的地方，部長剛剛雖然答應了，但那個時間點，你們縱管處真的有去做那麼多工作，時間點可不可以加速？"],["陳部長世凱：我們是不是今年就開始來啟動規劃，好不好？"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是比較積極一點，因為山里線改線通車也十幾年了，擺在那個地方，山里也不能再等了，臺東真的也不能再等了，如果我們交通部或者觀光署有更積極的態度的話，我覺得馬上可以啟動。"],["陳部長世凱：我們今年就來啟動這個規劃，我們現在就來啟動，要拜託觀光署跟臺鐵，我們兩邊一起來合作，把山里這個地方好好規劃。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝臺鐵，感謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請盧縣一委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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什麼已經對接了嗎有對接已經對接了嗎那會召開一個比較擴大會做談會我們從過去的一直在做了所以經濟部本身有66個工業區我們都透過我們自己的這個單位跟在我們區外的單位整合來談好 我就說之前啦我說因為他們這兩天也都很密集在跟中小企業在開會啦希望部長中央的角度也去了解一下各縣市政府的需求"},{"start":387.472,"end":391.561,"text":"我們都是中央合作啦中央與地方合作啦全力來度過這個難關好 謝謝謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1391,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時22分）麻煩請經濟部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。請問一下我們經濟部或行政院現在有沒有盤點出目前因為川普關稅政策導致受影響的全國產值跟勞工人數？目前有盤點出這個數字出來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為今天12點以後才開始適用32%的稅率，我們現在不斷的在update這些data。"],["葉委員元之：這個事情其實也不是一個突發事件，從去年11月，我們之前在經濟委員會也都問過類似的話題，那時候經濟部的回應都是「都有在盤點了啦」、「都開過座談會了啦」，就是說做了很多事情。目前你掌握可能受到影響的產值和勞工數是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：如果是數字，我可以跟委員報告，大概的影響是9,000億元、12萬人。"],["葉委員元之：影響到9,000億元跟12萬人喔！中午以後這個關稅就要實施了，之前有很多廠商說他們的貨櫃都已經在路上了，還有一些廠商在思考接下來是不是要繼續生產，所以政府明確的政策對他們來說非常重要。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，委員剛才講的目前在路上的部分，其實若是在5月27號以前進到美國，它的稅率跟過去是一樣的。"],["葉委員元之：現在行政院提出來的是880億元的補助方案，請問這個方案大概會持續多久？主要就是我覺得很多廠商第一個想要知道的是他們可以得到相關的比如說補助或者是優惠。政府會利用這個期間去跟美國談判嘛，所以預計大概期限是到什麼時候，要讓廠商做一點準備啦！比如說我是來自於新北市，我們新北市有2萬家工廠，大概占全國的五分之一，新北市政府也有盤點出相關受影響的產業，比如說新北市的金屬製品占25%、機械占12%，所以對新北市的廠商來說其實影響很大。我覺得現在對他們來說，政府的政策愈明確，他們的規劃可以更精準，就不會在這過程當中無所適從，所以，部長可不可以很明確的做個說明？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我想我們輸出到美國的、會造成影響的產業其實只侷限在一些比較小的部分，我們輸出美國……"],["葉委員元之：比較小的部分是什麼意思？"],["郭部長智輝：出超比較有優勢的產品，譬如說伺服器、半導體，這些是美國需要的產品，它是沒有替代性的，所以這個部分不擔心32%的稅對它有什麼影響。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼會不擔心！譬如說你剛剛講的部分，據我的瞭解有很多是做代工的，代工的話現在衍生出一個問題，就是品牌商委託他們代工，那這32%的部分應該是品牌商吸收還是代工廠吸收？"],["郭部長智輝：品牌商。"],["葉委員元之：可是據我所知，實際上很多廠商其實很擔心品牌商會壓縮代工廠的利潤。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有那回事，報告委員，我們都盤點過了，每一個伺服器做代工的廠商我們都一一盤點過，他們當然會跟原廠討論啦。"],["葉委員元之：我聽到的就是有的原廠會去跟代工廠談，表示現在加了32%的成本，是不是大家吸收一點，這就會影響到利潤嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：代工廠的利潤只有10%，他們吸收不起。"],["葉委員元之：所以有的就不做啦！受到影響就會衰退嘛！這都要考慮進去。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，在這一部分，我們有很多EMS的廠在美國。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我覺得不要再討論下去，因為發言時間不夠。你是不是很明確的就告訴這些廠商現在要做什麼，然後政府的部分，比如說補助要公開透明的、你的步驟或期限，很明確的告訴大家。"],["郭部長智輝：都有，我們的方法就是從「從簡、從速、從寬」這三個原則來給他們舒緩，給他們補助，這是第一點。第二點是我們對這些廠商原有的貸款也不會雨天收傘，會讓他延後最起碼6個月，我們現在推出的這些措施，原則上是4年有效。"],["葉委員元之：4年有效？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["葉委員元之：你那個880億元是怎麼預估出來的？"],["郭部長智輝：880億元是根據過去我們在第一時間裡面推論但可能會受到影響的，因為我們現在的談判不是去談接受32%，是談30%以下美國會對我們課多少，實際課多少，所以我們是用那個X來假設如果在那個階段，假設啦，我們可以談到10%的話，大概這個880億元是夠的，如果談判結果高於10%，那我當然就要再加碼。"],["葉委員元之：再加碼？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["葉委員元之：反正你會儘量加碼到夠啦。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["葉委員元之：再問最後一個問題，其實現在各縣市政府都有盤點出該縣市裡面可能會受到影響的中小企業，而且中小企業也都有回饋資訊給縣市政府，不知道我們經濟部有沒有跟各縣市政府對接，去瞭解一下他們的需求？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會跟各縣市的工業會……"],["葉委員元之：我是說縣市政府啦！"],["郭部長智輝：跟縣市政府的工業會。"],["葉委員元之：有嗎？已經對接了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有對接。"],["葉委員元之：已經對接了嗎？會召開一個比較擴大的會議？"],["郭部長智輝：座談會部分我們從過去一直在做，經濟部本身有66個工業區，我們都透過我們自己的這個單位，跟在我們區外的單位整合來談這些問題。"],["葉委員元之：我不是說之前啦！因為他們這兩天也都很密集的在跟中小企業開會，希望部長能以中央的角度也去瞭解一下各縣市政府的需求，能夠幫忙的就多幫忙。"],["郭部長智輝：中央與地方合作啦！全力來度過這個難關。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請馬文君委員詢答，馬文君委員，馬文君委員不在。","我們現在請廖先翔委員詢答，廖先翔委員，廖先翔委員不在。","我們現在請劉建國委員詢答，劉建國委員，劉建國委員不在。","我們現在請何欣純委員詢答，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","我們現在請王育敏委員詢答，王育敏委員，王育敏委員不在。","我們現在請林德福委員詢答，林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢。委員徐欣瑩、陳超明所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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主席請下 洪普澤"},{"start":19.968,"end":44.259,"text":"部長好 部長上個禮拜勞動部有發布新聞稿說就審計部查核了109年到113年度就業安定基金經費支出的情形的審核結果對不對 是那其中有認為就業安定基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作"},{"start":46.418,"end":65.997,"text":"臉書粉絲團經營、僑簽活動、春節紅包袋、三節禮品等各項支出和就業安定基金支出的用途相關聯性不高應該要屬於公務預算支出的範疇,應該要收回"},{"start":68.055,"end":74.941,"text":"那部長對於這樣子的一個報告大概有對外說明了說勞動部預計要分幾年來歸電對不對"},{"start":85.838,"end":109.371,"text":"因為審計的報告最後的結果審查結果裡面是判定這個是修正簡列要追回那從過去大概修正如果判定修正簡列也就是說他不該使用救安基金那應該這個因為這些業務是在業務上面有執行他的需要所以應該回到公務預算來去處理那所以過去用公務預算編列公務預算來歸電是"},{"start":111.112,"end":135.225,"text":"如果被判定修正檢列的方法做法之一對以前有過有過例子嗎有規定因為我我我編列公務商規定這是過去會有的做法你這邊有有有什麼有什麼例子嗎因為因為規定我覺得怪撥補呢是事先"},{"start":137.873,"end":147.668,"text":"從公務預算把錢到給基金這個是事事先那基金已經先不合目的使用"},{"start":149.008,"end":168.624,"text":"在編列預算 那你預算科目要變在哪裡其實某部分就是說 這意思是說這個支出是在業務上面支出只是他不應該用救安基金也就是他應該用公務預算所以等於有點像是公務預算的範疇要編回還給救安基金"},{"start":169.685,"end":188.482,"text":"它是一個還的概念我知道因為就歸店的字面上意思來看也知道是還我現在只是說在預算法上的依據是什麼我不是很清楚你們勞動部有誰可以回答"},{"start":189.483,"end":206.882,"text":"然後你們可能會要怎麼要編列在什麼預算科目這個算是新增的預算跟姚委員說明第一個是我們確實勞務部行政部門我們還是必須依照審計的結果來去做辦理跟相關的規範來去辦理"},{"start":208.504,"end":237.407,"text":"那但是這個編列供預算規定是我們認為可以做的做法之一但我們知道現在外界會覺得好像這是不是會是用全民的稅金等等的測看法但詳細具體的做法我們會再跟行政院跟審計來討論我現在還沒有討論到是不是會用全民的稅金我現在是來講一個預算上的東西就是說規定它本身是預算法裡面"},{"start":239.171,"end":259.956,"text":"規定的報告委員因為根據我們這次我們部裡面就業安定基金這個5年的這個支出因為審計部審核的結果是修正減劣收回所以依照這樣子的一個審定的結果我們的做法就是說"},{"start":261.256,"end":280.967,"text":"就是代表說這個基金的用途可能審計的看法是覺得這個關聯性不高那是相對來講的話我們基金要收回來的話那就是過去的做法是有這樣子的例子就是說可能還是要從公務預算來撥補這是另外增編這個預算來處理"},{"start":282.988,"end":299.895,"text":"這是一個過去可能可以處理的方向那我這邊有提供一個例子是過去曾經我們的就業安定基金在民國90幾年的時候有內政部某一個計畫那那個計畫是就是屬於這個當時是"},{"start":304.217,"end":322.813,"text":"請向我們救安基金來申請補助這個失能老人跟身心障礙補助使用居家服務的計畫那我們當年度這個計畫有來申請我們救安基金的補助但是這個經過審計部的審核結果也是認為說應該要修正簡列所以後來這一筆一億多的這個申請補助就"},{"start":332.456,"end":344.371,"text":"在當年度就被修正了那後來內政部在後面的年度他有編了這筆預算來還給我們救安基金這是過去有的例子"},{"start":347.695,"end":362.282,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告你們是配合內政部的活動嗎所以是內政部編給你們剛剛有跟委員報告這個案例是內政部來申請救安基金的補助"},{"start":362.942,"end":388.72,"text":"的案例那也曾經發生過審計部審核的結果是認為說可能跟基金的用途關聯性不高所以當年的審計的審定的結果是要修正跟我們的這個案件是相同的錢必須要還給救安基金這個是是沒有問題的只是說在預算上"},{"start":390.481,"end":409.685,"text":"所以有過前例是這樣子就對了有過類似的案例好那我再問就是說就業安定基金的使用項目上面現在就是有幾個項目是被認定"},{"start":418.282,"end":430.77,"text":"跟基金支出用途關聯性不高其中呢其中有紅包袋有紅包袋春聯紙圖筒那就我所知春聯就是紙寫紙寫了"},{"start":444.588,"end":468.743,"text":"部長的名字紅包袋也只寫了部長的名字這個我的認定就不是關聯性不高而已這個是沒有關聯性部長你聽懂我的意思嗎我可以理解楊委員的意思那當然關聯性不高這是審計部給判定但是我就說這些相關的做法"},{"start":469.963,"end":493.249,"text":"如果是我的話 我不會這樣做我知道我知道所以我並不是想並沒有要為難你的意思我現在的意思是說像這個你們有沒有可能檢討看看有沒有不當得力的問題如果有不當得力或者是違法營私的話目前檢調正在辦"},{"start":495.303,"end":521.31,"text":"可是不當得利是公法上的民事關係對但是我說這部分你們並不一定你們並不一定要這個跟刑事案件是兩回事懂我的意思嗎跟我的說明剛剛像講這些我們這些包括春聯等等等目前我們已經很清楚明定救安基金未來就是不能夠做這些事情了不是我是說過去的這一件"},{"start":523.171,"end":549.389,"text":"你們會不會考慮做不當得力 民事上因為部長剛剛有講嘛形勢上的問題已經是檢調在做處理這個我們不置評像是說看起來紅包袋只寫部長的名字沒有任何跟勞工就業"},{"start":550.976,"end":566.092,"text":"勞工權益勞工福祉有關的東西這個我的認定這個是有不當得理的我想跟姚元說明這些紅包袋或者是春聯它其實比較它也是發給"},{"start":567.233,"end":594.69,"text":"老公朋友的不是他是發給老公朋友但是他的用途可能是比方說會辦一些活動的時候他發這些紅包袋他作為比較能夠去吸引這些老公朋友來參與相關的活動當時他去設計這些紅包袋的用意是這樣也就是說可能我們辦了一些活動那你發送這些相關的文宣品比較能夠去吸引老公朋友願意再來多參與當時他的用意是這樣子"},{"start":596.411,"end":623.706,"text":"部長我這樣子講,就是說我其實是想要問一下你們的態度因為我向來不是很喜歡去追究離職的人也不想要為難不是造成結果的現任者的人"},{"start":625.171,"end":643.081,"text":"只是說我自己的認定我並不覺得說辦活動然後的文宣品上面辦活動本身 趙部長的講法是跟勞工福祉有關文宣品上面"},{"start":644.605,"end":674.085,"text":"全部就都沒有這個是可以的啦這是我個人的看法懂我意思齁我知道姜委員的意思對啦那我最後還是還是要講啦這個就是從許民村部長在任的時候我一直在講我在審基金預算的時候也講過啦我覺得就業安定基金的收支保管和運用辦法"},{"start":675.465,"end":703.539,"text":"裡面第五條裡面講的辦理提升勞工福祉事項我覺得這個這個規定這麼籠統的規定假如你們不想辦法把它具體化我相信洪志安部長在任的時候不會有問題啦不過法規不夠不夠明確就是會因人"},{"start":706.455,"end":724.007,"text":"因為誰當部長而有變化現在關於救安基金的收支管理用辦法我們正在修訂中我們現在把第12款拿掉以外其他款我們也希望能夠讓他的更加的明確目前其實也在修訂中"},{"start":737.196,"end":759.631,"text":"就安定基金的時候保障勞工權益的時候綁手綁腳啦我們也不希望這樣子啦就是該應該要用就用可是一定要用在勞工的所以這也是為什麼我覺得應該把規範給規範清楚在這個線內就是大家可以安心的使用才不會用的心驚膽顫這也是我們希望把規範規範得更清楚的原因好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1299,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時14分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。上個禮拜勞動部有發布新聞稿，針對審計部查核109年度到113年度就業安定基金經費支出情形的審查結果，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：其中認為就業安定基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作、臉書粉絲團經營、喬遷活動、春節紅包袋、三節禮品等各項支出和就業安定基金支出的用途關聯性不高，屬於公務預算支出的範疇應該要收回。部長，對於這樣的報告有對外說明勞動部預計要分幾年來歸墊，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：因為審計報告最後的審查結果是判定修正、減列、要追回。從過去如果判定修正減列的話，就是不該使用就業安定基金，因為這些業務有執行之需要時，應該回到公務預算去處理，所以編列公務預算來歸墊，是過去如果被判定修正減列的作法之一。"],["楊委員曜：以前有過例子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["楊委員曜：歸墊，因為我……"],["洪部長申翰：編列公務預算歸墊是過去會有的作法。"],["楊委員曜：你這邊有什麼例子嗎？因為歸墊的話，我覺得怪。撥補是事先從公務預算把錢給基金，這個是事先；基金已經先不合目的使用，再編列預算，那你預算科目要編在哪？"],["洪部長申翰：其實某部分的意思是說，在業務上面的支出，不應該用就業安定基金，應該用在公務預算，所以等於像是公務預算的範疇要編還給就業安定基金，它是一個「還」的概念。"],["楊委員曜：我知道，因為就歸墊字面上的意思也知道是「還」，我現在只是說預算法的依據是什麼？我不是很清楚，勞動部有誰可以回答你們要編列在什麼預算科目？這算是新增的預算。"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，第一個，勞動部行政部門確實還是必須依照審計的結果跟相關的規範去辦理，編列公務預算歸墊是我們認為可行的作法之一，但我們知道現在外界會覺得會不會用全民的稅金等等這類的看法，但詳細、具體的作法我們會再跟行政院、審計來討論。"],["楊委員曜：不是，我現在還沒有討論到是不是會用全民的稅金，我現在是在講預算上，就是歸墊本身是預算法規定的……"],["林處長美杏：報告委員，因為這次部裡面就業安定基金這五年的支出，根據審計部審核的結果是修正、減列、收回，所以依照這樣的審定結果，代表基金的用途在審計的看法可能是覺得關聯性不高，相對來講，我們基金要收回來的話，過去的作法是有這樣的例子，就是另外增編公務預算來撥補，這是過去可能可以處理的方向。我這邊有提供一個例子，過去曾經在民國九十幾年的時候，內政部某一個計畫來向就業安定基金申請補助，係關於失能老人跟身心障礙補助使用居家服務的計畫，當年度這個計畫有來申請就業安定基金的補助，但是經過審計部的審核結果也是認為說應該要修正、減列，所以後來這筆一億多的申請補助在當年度就被修正了，而內政部在後年度有編這筆預算來還給就安基金，這是過去有的例子。"],["楊委員曜：內政部嘛，對不對？"],["林處長美杏：對，我剛剛跟委員報告，它也是回編公務預算……"],["楊委員曜：因為你們是配合內政部的活動，所以是內政部編給你們的。"],["林處長美杏：不是，我剛剛有跟委員報告，這個案例是內政部申請就安基金補助的案例，也是曾經發生過審計部審核的結果認為可能跟基金的用途關聯性不高，所以當年審計的審定結果是要修正減列，跟我們的這個案子是雷同的。"],["楊委員曜：當然錢必須要還給就安基金，這個是沒有問題的。"],["林處長美杏：是。"],["楊委員曜：只是在預算上……所以有過前例是這樣子，對不對？"],["林處長美杏：是，有過類似的案例。"],["楊委員曜：好。那我再問，就業安定基金的使用項目上，現在有幾個項目被認定跟基金支出用途關聯性不高，其中有紅包袋、春聯、紙圖筒，就我所知春聯只寫了部長的名字、紅包袋也只寫了部長的名字，我的認定就不是關聯性不高而已，這是沒有關聯性，部長，你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我可以理解楊委員的意思，當然關聯性不高這是審計部給的判定，但是這些相關的做法，如果是我的話，我不會這樣做。"],["楊委員曜：我知道、我知道，所以我並沒有要為難你的意思，我現在的意思是你們有沒有可能檢討看看有沒有不當得利的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：如果有不當得利或者是違法營私的話，目前檢調跟司法正在辦。"],["楊委員曜：對，可是不當得利是公法上的民事關係。"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是我說這部分……"],["楊委員曜：你們並不一定要……這個跟刑事案件是兩回事，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，像剛剛講的這些包括春聯等等，目前我們已經很清楚明訂就安基金未來就是不能做這些事情。"],["楊委員曜：不是，我是說這一件你們會不會考慮到不當得利？在民事上，因為部長剛剛有講，刑事上的問題已經由檢調在做處理，這個我們不予置評。現在是看起來紅包袋只寫部長的名字，沒有任何跟勞工就業、勞工權益、勞工福祉有關的東西，我認定是有不當得利的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，這些紅包袋或春聯其實也是發給勞工朋友……"],["楊委員曜：不是……"],["洪部長申翰：他是發給勞工朋友，他的用途可能比方辦一些活動的時候發這些紅包袋，比較能夠去吸引勞工朋友來參與相關的活動，當時他去設計這些紅包袋的用意是這樣，也就是可能我們辦了一些活動，發送這些相關的文宣品比較能夠吸引勞工朋友願意再來多參與，當時他的用意是這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我其實是想要問你們的態度，因為我向來不是很喜歡去追究離職的人，也不想要為難不是造成結果的現任者，只是我自己認定不覺得辦活動的文宣品上面……辦活動本身，照部長的講法是跟勞工福祉有關。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：文宣品上面全部就都沒有，這個是可以的啦，這是我個人的看法，懂我意思？"],["洪部長申翰：我知道楊委員的意思。"],["楊委員曜：對啦！我最後還是要講，從許銘春部長在任的時候我就一直在講，我在審基金預算的時候也講過，我覺得就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法第五條裡面辦理提升勞工福祉事項，我覺得這麼籠統的規定，假如你們不想辦法把它具體化，我相信洪申翰部長在任的時候不會有問題，不過法規不夠明確就是會因為誰當部長而有變化，懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟楊委員說明，關於就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法我們正在修訂中，我們現在把第十二款拿掉以外，其他款也希望能夠讓它更加的明確，目前其實也在修訂中。"],["楊委員曜：對，要更加明確，我們也不會希望勞動部因為這個事件，而在支用就業安定基金來保障勞工權益的時候綁手綁腳，我們也不希望這樣子。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["楊委員曜：應該要用就用，可是一定要用在勞工身上。"],["洪部長申翰：所以這也是為什麼我覺得應該把規定給規範清楚，在這個線內大家可以安心的使用，而不會用的心驚膽戰，這也是我們希望把規定規範得更清楚的原因。"],["楊委員曜：對。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"160012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce64d00ca05a295b0c79a8b3a3b5782fdd5ac7c33fa4103456f82bc5d892225b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"13:08:28 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從寬嘛對不對我明確要求"},{"start":213.106,"end":242.452,"text":"在這93年3月1號之前已經來台定居了就排除了也就是你這次花了一萬兩千多份不要再追了這是第一項你這樣是不是就解決問題了我剛剛講了那麼多的台灣支持的父母的母親台灣人的老婆那麼多的台灣人就不會有這個困擾了嘛把這個時間點定出來第一項 境外責事啊你這叫他補正啊 海際會為什麼要存在"},{"start":244.326,"end":258.96,"text":"為什麼要存在海基會海基會為什麼沒有被裁掉 為什麼要設立他不就是要幫我們人民服務嗎他要做認證的工作啊 是不是所以現在有碰到問題了 因為打電話或者到海基會去申請就好不是去找那個台六要回一趟 任何一個人要跑一趟大陸多遠啊不用工作嗎往返要多久 去還要再辦"},{"start":270.233,"end":281.581,"text":"海基會存在的目的是什麼所以讓我們的陸配 我們的人民直接到海基會去海基會辦理那應該有的功能海基會跟大陸 海協會是對口的嘛去查啊海基會去查 到底他的戶籍還在不在啊對不對啊如果沒這問題 為什麼跑那麼一趟海基會存在才有才有才有它的價值嘛要不然拆掉啊"},{"start":297.458,"end":324.881,"text":"另外接下來就是移民署給你入委會的功能 第三點你的目的就是要他放棄大陸這個戶籍嘛 對不對你做一個公版的申請書啊我就是要證明嘛 對不對然後你給他一個公版的這個申請書他簽名 簽完以後到這個法院去認證不就完成程序了嗎"},{"start":326.823,"end":352.308,"text":"所以從政府的角色從海基會一直到領土委會到移民署這問題不就解決了嗎為什麼搞這麼複雜呢為什麼要擾民呢甚至還牽扯到身份的這個檢驗還有歧視的問題只要你回到初心以前的梁文傑 少年的梁文傑心是軟的 不是硬的 不是黑的政府該有的功能要扮演做到前面這幾項問題是不是都解決了"},{"start":355.562,"end":381.175,"text":"所以我要再問一個你現在很嚴重就是叫人家三個月內要完成這個事情你們自己人家打電話去問說什麼程序要多久你們要回答說至少大概兩個月給你們多一個月時間太緊迫了啦至少把這個時間延長多一兩年另外我一個要求除了做剛剛的現在很多人民都碰到問題了我特別跟你講這邊你們刨掉的"},{"start":382.915,"end":406.725,"text":"你不只製造了社會的對立,你刨掉了台灣很重要的根民主、法治、人權跟人道,都台灣很重要的你把這根刨掉了,然後製造了社會的對立讓很多人惶惶不安,連老蔣你們也刨掉你們民進黨自己的根啦你去看看臉書上面,還有很多來陳情的你們連民進黨的立委現在,辦公室電話都被打爆啦"},{"start":408.493,"end":431.038,"text":"裡面有些留言說 我長期都是民進黨的支持者啊你現在有媽媽回去找一個三十幾年前 四十幾年前的東西找得到嗎連民進黨那些青鳥 那些支持者都反彈了你們在刨自己的根啊這些人本來就是在台灣人啊 人家住這麼久啊為什麼要圍爛人家呢最重要的 政府的角色扮演完以後你要的"},{"start":432.148,"end":448.04,"text":"就可以完成這個法律的程序嘛對不對所以我明確要求你在最近一個月內北中南去辦公開說明會請聽到底碰到什麼問題幫他們解決問題文傑跟移民署副市長我們來做這五件事情好不好委員可以讓我們有時間回答嗎請說"},{"start":450.859,"end":477.279,"text":"對我們來講其實不管是93年3月1號以前還是之後其實我們都是不准有雙重身份的那今天之所以會有3月1號這個事情是因為當初的修法我們現在是follow法律如果說立法院覺得說這個93年3月1號以前應該排除那老實講這個不是我們行政機關可以答應的"},{"start":479.881,"end":497.863,"text":"你當初在九十一年三月一號修兩岸人民關係條例的時候你當初很多人就已經拿到身分證了耶那你要的話你當初你就一直追他說你六個月內沒有完成放棄對不對你六個月你自己沒做所以我說你是怠惰又失職啊你這個轉嫁變成要人民來負擔這個事情咧"},{"start":499.363,"end":521.417,"text":"法律追訴期間沒有那麼長啦 都是知道當初我也不是陸委會 你也不是立委嘛你現在來追 是當初的陸委會 陸委會失職啊那你怎麼反而現在怪到人民身上 要人民來負這個責任不過委員提出的一個方案 其中第三點我一再強調 就是說如果他是當事人 真的沒有辦法"},{"start":522.404,"end":543.921,"text":"拿到文件的話我們會有別的措施我們絕對不會說你真的沒有辦法拿到文件然後我真的把你身份取消我們不會這樣做但是很多人我還是要再強調一遍很多人都說他自己沒辦法拿到但是實際上最後都是可以的"},{"start":546.038,"end":556.003,"text":"我只能夠這樣講所以我說你政府自己要先辦年好嘛你就讓他去海基會海基會去幫他查啊你入會的功能你移民署的功能你把那個放棄的那個"},{"start":557.199,"end":585.151,"text":"公版的申請書給他就好啊你給我這個問題啊是不是要達到法律上要的二跟三趕快做可以嗎關於如果他真的沒有辦法那用切結的方式這是一個可以考慮的方向用切結的方式如果真的沒有辦法拿到文傑不要用個案處理啦你給一個公版嘛你所謂切結就是說他這裡是找不到對不對他確實很困難嘛由陸委會跟移民署提供一個公版切結說我確實已經放棄了找不到"},{"start":585.891,"end":611.733,"text":"那你經過這個法院的這個認證嘛 對不對那就完成這個程序啦OK齁所以陸委會跟移民組委做這樣的事情齁在這裡跟委員報告那個副組長他是你的指導單位嘛對不對是不是你除非是要推翻他的要不然你不用再說了趕快做這件事好不好那個等一下等一下等一下讓副組委先講那個你什麼時候可以把這個公版拿出來"},{"start":613.899,"end":636.212,"text":"這個竊竊的這個官板好不好因為禮拜可以讓大家自由上去自己是可以下載嘛那個委員我再說明一下對於那些真的沒有辦法回去拿到文件的人用竊竊的方式是可以考慮的方式但是首先我們要先確定他到底是不是"},{"start":637.372,"end":663.952,"text":"真的沒有辦法拿到否則我們對那些真的有回去拿這些文件然後回來繳交的這些陸配也不公平你叫人家跑一趟就已經是擾民了也不公平你存在價值就是服務民眾你本來海基會可以做的因為現在14萬定居的13萬人都交了嘛那比較近期了嘛對不對比較碰到問題大部分都是在93年3月1號以前的啦你那個一萬兩千份最主要就是這個嘛對不對"},{"start":665.031,"end":693.635,"text":"是不是 跟全民講清楚為什麼今天那麼多人這麼氣憤是因為你現在發出的一萬兩千份都是93年3月1號以前21年生的他放在這邊就住了40年50年這個都是連長的我看現在上面抗議的人都是二代啦都是年輕人啦媽媽在這裡住這麼久啊你叫我現在六七十歲啊七八十歲啊你要想要叫我拿三四十年前的東西這不是擾民不是失職是什麼"},{"start":694.795,"end":720.702,"text":"我覺得對我們來說身體健康跟年紀這些東西我們都會考量最關鍵的我們要解決問題嘛你現在那個你剛說要有一個切結是可以的嘛對不對那你一個禮拜內把這個切結的光板寫出來放到網路上讓大家可以下載或者有需要的人就到移民署去拿嘛我看移民署現在大概每天都是一缸子人去啊對不對"},{"start":722.134,"end":729.997,"text":"電話被打爆了 現在人忙到連電話都打不進去了 對不對那你要想辦法解決問題啊發委員 我們已經設有專線 還有專郵也就是讓民眾可以傳輸的一個便利"},{"start":738.342,"end":754.327,"text":"我們本署的網站也會公告專用電子的信箱諮詢的專線還有對外的Q&A然後我們會製作懶人包讓民眾知道要怎麼來處理那最重要的是我們要請聽這些"},{"start":756.604,"end":782.086,"text":"接獲通知的民眾如果他不能回去大陸他的原因他的狀態是怎麼樣我們收整把他分類然後再跟陸委會來做言商現在我接到的這個投訴還有現在在網路跟媒體上看到的就是很多人根本就是去電話打不接的打進去了你們就叫他第一句話嘛去回大陸"},{"start":784.67,"end":811.668,"text":"你去把文件找到嘛 來公證嘛你地雷太沒用 地雷你變成轉機啊你只是個總機而已啊政府存在的目的你要幫人民解決問題 要找到對的方法嘛 是不是剛剛我們有新的進展了那個陸委會的副主委 文姐我剛剛講的 切結這個事情這是一個地雷盡快給一個公版的 大家可以有一個依循這是地雷 地雷好好去檢討一下 跟海基會討論一下"},{"start":813.541,"end":838.84,"text":"海基會如果要存在你本來就要幫人民做這個認證啊等一等我可以去你那邊查說到底以前我有沒有這個文件嘛對不對有沒有撤下這個文件嘛它本來就要保存啊啊沒有的話它存在功能它就是跟海...對岸它有對接啊它可以幫人民查不是嗎如果只要二跟三這個解決了根本就連大陸就不用跑問題就解決了啊委員跟你報告能查的或是海基會有存檔的"},{"start":839.941,"end":861.327,"text":"都有查了所以現在在通知的就是沒有就是沒有存檔也沒有所以你看連海紀委都沒有標籤這年代這麼久很難查你強人所難嘛所以幫忙解決問題啦是好不好 另外剛才你一個電話我怎麼說過你說 你說如果沒有如期完成的你不會把人驅逐出去 趕出去喔 對不對清楚跟民眾講一下"},{"start":864.059,"end":879.185,"text":"不會 這個要保證喔要保證喔不要發生這樣的悲劇如果真的沒有辦法拿到這些文件政府絕對不會做出這種驅逐的舉動這個和前一陣子那三位中配的案子不一樣"},{"start":880.39,"end":900.058,"text":"這就是我們台灣人 做這麼久了嘛 對不對要保護自己的台灣人 現在特別你看 這裡高關稅那個海嘯這麼嚴重 怎麼每天都結社會啊草野都是一新的啦 各行各業 別在裡面又製造一些衝突跟這些擾民的事情這裡面老實講還有歧視跟身份檢查問題 都真的很不好啦我們今天都是解決問題喔 每個東西都很具體喔 好不好"},{"start":905.405,"end":927.498,"text":"好好檢討一下 也要檢討一下 如果在93年3月1號以前可以排除我會努力 當然你如果要修法 立法委內 我們可以來提案可是我覺得你如果心還是軟的 行政部門本身也應該做我們滿期待的啊 陸委會行政部門自己提案啊留下一個心還是軟的 有幫人民在服務的政務官當官都是一時的啦"},{"start":928.499,"end":933.462,"text":"留下來不要是汙名要是美名好不好還有機會我們趕快幫我們的陸培跟我們台灣人謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1173,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時8分）謝謝主席，請梁文傑梁副主委，還有移民署的陳副署長。"],["主席：請副主委、副署長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：文傑，我們兩個認識三十幾年了，年輕的時候我們的心都是柔軟的，可是心不要變硬，更不要變成壞的，特別是人在公門要好修行。政府存在的目的就是服務人民，不是製造問題啊！從今天一早這麼多人在問你，你們把他定位成陸配，我看到他們的陳情，很多都是他們的小孩來陳情的。看了他們貼的文章，文傑跟我都很年輕，我覺得你應該是會掉眼淚的，我很希望你那個初心還在。我看了難過的是，明明本來沒有事情，為什麼搞出這麼大的事，讓那麼多的家庭不安？","昨天我也緊急找副署長到我的辦公室，你們發出去1萬2,000封耶！你剛剛在講檢舉，有檢舉你就辦，可是檢舉要辦也要舉證啊！一下撒1萬2,000封出去，影響1萬2,000個家庭，而且你知道現在的對象是誰嗎？這些人已經來臺灣三十幾年、四十幾年、五十幾年，他們不只是臺灣人的老婆、臺灣之子的母親，他們就是臺灣人啊！做臺灣人做了二十幾年、三十幾年、四十幾年，很多人的年紀都很長了，已經六、七十歲了，你突然叫人家去拿二十年前、三十幾年前的東西出來，不是強人所難嗎？","我剛剛在講，政府要做什麼事情？政府要服務人民嘛！海基會、陸委會的功能在哪裡？移民署的功能在哪裡？你一直叫他去補證件，很多證件政府要幫他找啊！是不是？我提出五個最具體的要求，我們先來看一下五大具體的要求，我先從第二個開始講，民國93年3月1號修了兩岸人民關係條例之後，你說要他註銷陸籍，本來六個月內要完成，但你們沒有好好去追對不對？這是不是政府本來就是失職、怠惰，責任在政府嘛！政府要去幫忙解決問題，所以我第一項基本的要求，民國93年3月1號以前已經定居的，剛才也說了，他如果已經取得身分證就從寬對不對？我明確要求，在93年3月1號之前已經來臺定居就排除，也就是你這次發了一萬兩千多份，不要再追了，這是第一項，這樣是不是就解決問題了？我剛剛講了，那麼多臺灣之子的母親、臺灣人的老婆，那麼多的臺灣人，就不會有這個困擾了嘛！把這個時間點定出來。","第二項是政府要做的事情，現在卻要他補證，海基會為什麼存在？為什麼要存在海基會？海基會為什麼沒有被裁掉？為什麼要設立？它不就是要幫我們人民服務嗎？它要做認證的工作，是不是？所以現在碰到問題了應該打電話，或者到海基會去申請就好，不是要他們回去大陸，任何一個人要跑一趟大陸多遠啊！不用工作嗎？往返要多久？去還要再辦，海基會存在的目的是什麼？所以讓我們的陸配、我們的人民直接到海基會去，海基會扮演它應該有的功能。海基會跟大陸的海協會是對口的，去查啊！海基會去查，到底他們的戶籍還在不在，對不對？如果沒這個問題，為什麼要跑那麼一趟？海基會存在才有它的價值，要不然就裁掉啊！","接下來是關於移民署跟陸委會的功能，第三點，你的目的就是要他放棄大陸戶籍，對不對？你做一個公版的申請書啊！我就是要證明，對不對？然後你給他一個公版的申請書請他簽名，簽完以後到法院去認證，不就完成程序了嗎？所以從政府的角色，從海基會一直到陸委會、到移民署，這問題不就解決了嗎？為什麼搞這麼複雜呢？為什麼要擾民呢？甚至裡面牽扯到身分的檢驗，還有歧視的問題，只要你回到初心，以前的梁文傑、年輕的梁文傑心是軟的，不是硬的、不是黑的，政府該有的功能要扮演，做到前面這幾項，問題是不是都解決了？現在很嚴重的就是叫人家三個月內要完成這件事情，人家打電話去問程序要多久，你們回答大概兩個月，給你們多一個月，時間太緊迫了啦！至少把這個時間延長多一兩年。","另外我有一個要求，現在很多人民都碰到問題了，文傑，我特別跟你講，這次你不只製造了社會的對立，還刨掉了臺灣很重要的根。民主、法治、人權跟人道，都是臺灣很重要的，你把根刨掉了，製造了社會的對立，讓很多人惶惶不安，老實講你們也刨掉民進黨自己的根。你去看看臉書上面還有很多來陳情的，現在連民進黨立委辦公室的電話都被打爆，裡面有些留言說他長期都是民進黨的支持者，你現在要我媽媽回去找一個三十幾年前、四十幾年前的東西，找得到嗎？連民進黨那些青鳥、那些支持者都反彈了，你們也在刨自己的根啊！這些人本來就是臺灣人，都住在這裡這麼久了，為什麼要為難人家呢？最重要的是政府的角色扮演完以後，你要的就是完成這個法律的程序，對不對？所以我明確要求你在最近一個月內，北、中、南去辦公開說明會，傾聽到底碰到什麼問題，幫他們解決問題。文傑跟移民署副署長，我們來做這五件事情好不好？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，可以讓我們有時間回答嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：請說。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對我們來講，不管是93年3月1號以前還是之後，其實我們都是不准有雙重身分的，今天之所以會有3月1號這個事情，是因為當初的修法，我們現在是follow法律，如果立法院覺得93年3月1號以前應該排除，老實講這個不是我們行政機關可以答應的。"],["張委員啓楷：93年3月1號修兩岸人民關係條例的時候，當時很多人就已經拿到身分證了，那你要的話，當初就要追查他有沒有在6個月內完成放棄，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那6個月你自己沒做，所以我說你是怠惰又失職啊！怎麼能轉嫁，變成要人民來負擔這個事情呢？法律追朔期間沒有那麼長啦！說實在的……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：啓楷委員，當初我不是陸委會，你也不是立委……"],["張委員啓楷：現在換你來追，是當初的陸委會失職，現在怎麼反而怪到人民身上，要人民來負這個責任？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不過委員提出的方案，其中第三點，我一再強調，就是說如果他是當事人，真的沒辦法拿到文件，我們會有別的措施，絕對不會說你真的沒辦法拿到文件，就把你的身分取消，我們不會這樣做，但是我還是要再強調一遍，很多人都說他沒辦法拿到，實際上最後都是可以的，我只能夠這樣講。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我說政府要先扮演好，你就讓他去海基會，請海基會去幫他查，陸委會的功能、移民署的功能就是把那個放棄的公版申請書給他就好了，這樣就能解決問題，是不是能達到法律上要的？二跟三趕快做，可以嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：關於如果他真的沒有辦法，那用切結的方式，這是一個可以考慮的方向。"],["張委員啓楷：用切結的方式？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，如果真的沒有辦法拿到……"],["張委員啓楷：文傑，不要用個案處理啦！你給一個公版，所謂的切結就是他真的找不到，確實很困難嘛！由陸委會跟移民署提供一個公版，切結說他確實已經放棄了，找不到，經過法院的認證，就完成這個程序啦！OK嗎？所以陸委會跟移民署可以做這件事情？"],["陳副署長建成：在這裡跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：副署長，他是你的指導單位對不對？你除非是要推翻他的，要不然你不用再說了，趕快做這件事好不好？等一下，讓副主委先講，你什麼時候可以把這個切結書的公版拿出來？一個禮拜可以讓大家自由上去下載。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，我再說明一下，對於那些真的沒有辦法回去拿到文件的人，用切結的方式是可以考慮的方式，但是首先我們要先確定，他到底是不是真的沒有辦法拿到，否則我們對那些真的有回去拿這些文件，然後回來繳交的這些陸配也不公平。"],["張委員啓楷：你叫人家跑一趟就已經是擾民了，而且你的存在價值就是服務民眾，本來海基會可以做的……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為現在14萬定居的，13萬人都交了。"],["張委員啓楷：那比較近期了對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，13萬人都交了。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在遇到的問題大部分都是在93年3月1號以前的，那1萬2,000份最主要就是這個，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["張委員啓楷：跟全民講清楚，為什麼今天那麼多人這麼氣憤？是因為你現在發出這1萬2,000份都是93年3月1號以前，21年前耶！他可能在這裡已經住了40年、50年，這些都是年長的。我看現在上面抗議的人都是二代啦！都是年輕人啦！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：也有一代。"],["張委員啓楷：媽媽在這裡住這麼久了，現在六七十歲、七八十歲了，你突然叫我拿出三、四十年前的東西，這不是擾民、不是失職是什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對我們來說，身體健康跟年紀我們都會考量。"],["張委員啓楷：對。最關鍵的是我們要解決問題嘛！你剛剛說要一個切結是可以的，對不對？那你一個禮拜內把切結的公版寫出來，放到網路上讓大家可以下載，或者有需要的人就到移民署去拿嘛！我看移民署現在大概每天都是一缸子人去啊！對不對？電話被打爆啦！現在是忙到連電話都打不進去了，對不對？那你要想辦法解決問題啊！"],["陳副署長建成：報告委員，我們已經設有專線，還有專郵，也就是讓民眾可以傳輸的一個便利啦！本署的網站也會公告專用的電子信箱、諮詢的專線，還有對外的Q&A。然後我們會製作懶人包，讓民眾知道要怎麼來處理。最重要的是我們要傾聽，就是這些接獲通知的民眾不能回去大陸的原因和狀態是怎麼樣，我們蒐整、分類，然後再跟陸委會研商，給他一個妥善……"],["張委員啓楷：建成，現在我接到的投訴還有現在在網路和媒體上看到的，很多人根本就是電話打不進去。打進去了，你們的第一句話就是叫他回大陸把文件找到來公證。第一是你們太忙了，第二是你們變成轉接啊！你們只是一個總機而已啊！政府存在的目的是要幫人民解決問題，要找到對的方法嘛！是不是？","剛剛我們有新的進展了。陸委會副主委，文傑，我剛剛講的，切結這個事情儘快給一個公版的，大家可以有一個依循，這是第一點。第二點，好好去檢討一下，跟海基會討論一下。海基會如果要存在，你本來就要幫人民做這個認證啊！民眾可以去你那邊查詢以前有沒有這個文件，有沒有撤銷這個文件，它本來就要保存啊！沒有的話，它存在的功能就是跟對岸有對接啊！它可以去幫人民查，不是嗎？如果只要二跟三解決了，根本連大陸都不用跑，問題就解決了！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，跟你報告，能查的或者海基會有存檔的都有查了，所以現在再通知的就是沒有存檔，也沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你看連海基會都沒有，那就表示年代那麼久很難查了，你強人所難嘛！所以幫忙解決問題啦！好不好？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外還有一個重點，我剛才說過了，你說如果沒有如期完成的，你不會把人驅逐出去、趕出去哦！對不對？清楚跟民眾講一下，不會吧？這個要保證哦！不要發生這樣的悲劇。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果真的沒有辦法拿到這些文件，政府絕對不會做出這種驅逐的舉動，這個和前一陣子那3位中配的案子不一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！那些都是我們臺灣人啊！在這裡住這麼久了，對不對？要保護我們自己臺灣人，好不好？特別是這幾天高關稅的海嘯這麼嚴重，我們現在大家都團結在一起，朝野都是一心的，包括各行各業，不要又在裡面製造一些衝突跟擾民的事情。老實講，這裡面還有歧視跟身分檢查問題，都真的很不好啦！我們今天都是解決問題哦！每個東西都很具體哦！好不好？好好檢討一下。","如果是在93年3月1號以前的可以排除，我會努力，當然你如果要修法，我們立法委員可以來提案。可是我覺得如果你的心還是軟的，行政部門本身也應該做，我們蠻期待的啊！陸委會行政部門自己提案啊！留下一個心還是軟的有幫人民在服務的政務官。當官都是一時的啦！留下的不要是污名而是美名好不好？還有機會，我們趕快幫陸配跟臺灣人解決問題，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（13時24分）","� See Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444（1969）.詳參：林子儀，言論自由與內亂罪─明顯而立即危險原則之闡釋，收於：氏著，言論自由與新聞自由，1999年9月，頁226以下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"160011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce78c67528eb9eb7d1a0ce932bdb5123485ac7c33fa410345619161ef466b908c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"13:14:42 - 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有請我們郭部長郭部長"},{"start":20.799,"end":43.471,"text":"委員好部長辛苦我想部長也是來自屏東也長期關心屏東的一個產業發展那部長我想針對這一次美國關稅的部分那當然對於這個鋼鐵電子跟工具機的部分造成一個出口導向產業的直接衝擊那這不是不僅是一個國際貿易的一個議題更是產業鏈穩定跟國際信任危機一個壓力測試部長同意這個論調嗎"},{"start":50.675,"end":78.641,"text":"是部長那我想針對屏東縣的一個產業發展我們過去在農業生技漁機製造還有零組件的加工還有鋼鐵的一個零配件的供應鏈部分我想我們也扮演一定的重要的一個角色那面對這樣一個全球供應鏈一個變局那部長身為屏東人未來怎麼樣去協助這個用這個881的部分怎麼樣來協助屏東縣的中小企業來渡過難關"},{"start":80.161,"end":101.275,"text":"報告委員,我想我們這一個紓困的這個方案,這880億大概都是針對中小微企業給他們紓困使用那至於說將來的要做轉型啊,或者是訂單移轉啊,在各方面如果說這些紓困費用是不夠的,我們當然會另外再編列,包括紓困費用會加碼"},{"start":102.856,"end":126.049,"text":"所以這個變數是在於說我們現在的談判單位在談32%的稅率可以降到多少這個是他們在談的我們現在880億是第一個階段因為我們不知道可以談到多少所以我們先編880億如果談下來的稅率有各種不同的連動"},{"start":128.49,"end":140.545,"text":"那如果不夠 880億是不夠來疏解我們的中小企業我們的小微企業他們的轉型或者是提升他們的轉移訂單的這個市場那麼我們會繼續再加碼那長遠來講的話我對鄉親來講的話有上限嗎"},{"start":148.585,"end":151.047,"text":"應該是不會有上限因為對國內企業的安定跟國內企業的穩定是最重要的部分總統也有指示應該是擴大在台灣業者的"},{"start":168.239,"end":177.514,"text":"強化它的競爭力所以這個部分只要是我們國內的產業我們都會全心全力的來幫助它提升它的競爭力"},{"start":179.093,"end":204.886,"text":"部長那就一個國際這個我想你本身是來自於業界就這個我們企業這個發展的過程裡面部長認為這個出口導向的這個發展性有沒有什麼樣需要調整的一個方向跟委員報告這個我想從過去的全球自動化自由化的這個貿易行為大概在最近因為這個地緣政治的關係或者是極端氣候的影響"},{"start":206.363,"end":230.166,"text":"所以现在大概比较转向这个区域经济学的这个时代那这个我们对这个整个台湾在做出国贸易的时候我们必须要更精准的找到我们可以发展的这个区域所以美国当然是我们一个很重要的因为我们的基础是互补的美国也是做这个研发研究"},{"start":231.187,"end":244.445,"text":"但是它的發電做得不算很厲害那個行善也不算很厲害這個部分傳來台灣台灣做這個研究跟行善發電我們是在那邊研究可能不太講但是我們對於這個發電"},{"start":246.548,"end":271.187,"text":"跟製造這是我們台灣的優勢所以我們國家必須要針對我們自己的優勢發展所有的行善的供應鏈包括產品的供應鏈所以這個是我們一個非常重要的命題我們的傳產將來也是面向一些比較剛性需求的產品我們來協助它能夠移轉對他們來講其實不是太困難"},{"start":272.108,"end":292.689,"text":"所以經濟部來講的話經濟部在未來我在講未來因為面對到這個問題所以我們一定要移轉那個市場移轉產品所以我們會讓他第一個從事既有的產品因為那個飛鴻供應鏈下來的ICT的產品跟下來的一個軍工產品這個市場非常的大這個是我們馬上可以catch up"},{"start":293.393,"end":308.659,"text":"另外一個就是對一個新的產品然後這個是我們可以主導的未來一定所有的製造業只有兩個變數第一個利用機器人替我們生產第二個利用生成式的AI來"},{"start":311.12,"end":327.085,"text":"訓練這個機器人幫我們做工作所以我們的國人只要會訓練這個深層式AI你有這樣的一個技能大概啊在台灣在這個智慧製造的這個領域裡面大概就是全球第一啦好 部長我想這個我們"},{"start":328.205,"end":351.385,"text":"這個企業界除了關心這個關稅之外還有很重要的問題就是我們電力的供應穩定度尤其我們現在核三廠5月17號2號就要除役那我想不分朝野大家都很關心我們這個電力的一個調度那包含我想我們在這個多元的能源的一個發電部分包含再生能源火力發電這部分部長我們這個"},{"start":353.644,"end":367.659,"text":"在野黨一直攻擊的這個能源的一個缺口的問題到底這個部分我們目前掌握的狀況是怎麼樣報告委員我想對這個核能這種新的科技基本上我們是不反對討論的"},{"start":369.635,"end":395.445,"text":"只要符合三個要件第一個安全第二個大家有共識第三個核廢料可以處理我相信新科技的這些能源我們都是在我們討論之中只要它能夠符合這個要件我想核三廠它如果再符合這個要件至於未來的發展是怎麼樣的這個交由全民共識來決定那核三廠除疫之後"},{"start":396.045,"end":410.487,"text":"那後續這個最終處置廠的部分我們目前有進度嗎核廢料的處理我們現在都在進行中包括因為我們現在有核一核二那現在都在進行核三廠當然我們會有這些基本假設那我們希望能夠處理"},{"start":412.23,"end":434.936,"text":"好 那我想這個也是我們恆春半島這個居民很關心的一個問題啦那後續整個河山除役之後整個在這個整個地方的環境議題上面還有這個我們所謂的一個相關的回饋機制上面我想經濟部還有台電公司應該拿出更正面的態度我想這個要後續還是本席還是會持續來追蹤 伯娘你做變動人這也要繼續來給我們努力一下啦謝謝委員鼓勵好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1369,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（13時14分）謝謝主席，有請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長辛苦了。我想部長也是來自屏東，也長期關心屏東的產業發展，部長，針對這次美國的關稅，對於鋼鐵、電子跟工具機的部分，造成出口導向產業的直接衝擊，這不僅是一個國際貿易的議題，更是產業鏈穩定跟國際信任危機的一個壓力測試，部長同意這個論調嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，針對屏東縣的產業發展，過去在農業生技、漁具製造，還有零組件加工、鋼鐵零配件供應鏈的部分，我想我們也扮演了一定的重要角色，面對全球供應鏈的變局，部長身為屏東人，未來怎麼樣用這個880億協助屏東縣的中小企業度過難關？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們這個紓困方案，880億大概都是針對中小微企業，給他們紓困使用。至於說將來要轉型或者是訂單移轉等等各方面，如果這些紓困費用不夠，我們當然會另外再編列，包括紓困費用會加碼。而這個變數是在於我們現在的談判單位在談32%稅率可以降到多少，這個是他們在談。"],["徐委員富癸：是，這是我們努力的方向。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在的880億是第一個階段，因為我們不知道可以談到多少，所以我們先編880億，談下來的稅率會有各種不同的連動，如果880億不夠紓解我們中小企業、小微企業的轉型或者是提升他們轉移訂單的市場，那麼我們會繼續再加碼。長遠來講，對屏東鄉親來講的話……"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這有上限嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是不會有上限，因為這個對國內企業的安定，跟國內企業的穩定是最重要的部分，總統也有指示，應該是擴大臺灣業者強化的競爭力，所以這個部分，只要是我們國內的產業，我們都會全心全力的幫助他，提升他的競爭力。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想你本身是來自於業界，就企業發展的過程裡面，部長認為出口導向的發展性有沒有什麼需要調整的方向？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，過去全球自由化的貿易行為，最近因為地緣政治的關係或者是極端氣候的影響，所以現在大概比較轉向區域經濟學的時代，對於整個臺灣在做出口貿易的時候，我們必須要更精準的找到我們可以發展的區域。美國當然是我們一個很重要的對象，因為我們的技術是互補的，美國是做研究，但是他們的發展做得不是很厲害，生產也沒有很厲害，這個部分移來臺灣，臺灣對於研究跟生產、發展，我們的研究可能沒有那麼強，但是對於發展和製造是我們臺灣的優勢。所以我們國家必須要針對我們自己的優勢，發展所有生產的供應鏈，包括產品的供應鏈，所以這是我們一個非常重要的命題。我們的傳產將來也是面向一些比較剛性需求的產品，我們來協助他能夠移轉，對他們來講，其實不是太困難。經濟部來講的話，經濟部在未來，我就講未來，因為面對這個問題，我們一定要移轉市場、移轉產品，所以我們會讓它第一個從事既有的產品，因為非紅供應鏈下來的ICT產品跟下來的軍工產品，這個市場非常大，這個我們馬上可以catch up，另外一個就是對一個新的產品，然後這個是我們可以主導的，未來所有的製造業一定只有兩個變數，第一個，利用機器人替我們生產，第二個，利用生成式AI來訓練機器人幫我們工作，所以我們的國人只要會訓練這個生成式AI，具有這樣的一個技能，臺灣在智慧製造領域裡面大概就是全球第一。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們企業界除了關心關稅之外，還有一個很重要的問題，那就是我們的電力供應穩定度，尤其是核三廠的2號機在5月17號就要除役了，我想不分朝野，大家都很關心我們電力的調度，多元能源發電包含再生能源、火力發電這些。部長，對在野黨一直攻擊的能源缺口問題部分，我們目前掌握的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想對核能這種新的科技，基本上我們是不反對討論的，只要符合三個要件：第一個、安全，第二個、大家有共識，第三個、核廢料可以處理，我相信新科技這些能源都在我們討論之中，只要它能夠符合這個要件。我想如果核三廠符合這個要件，未來的發展是怎麼樣的，這個交由全民的共識來決定。"],["徐委員富癸：核三廠除役之後，最終處置場的部分，我們目前有進度嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：核廢料的處理我們現在都在進行中，包括核一、核二，現在都在進行；對核三廠，當然我們會有這些基本假設，我們希望能夠處理。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這個也是我們恆春半島居民很關心的一個問題，整個核三除役之後，後續在地方的環境議題還有所謂的相關回饋機制上面，我想經濟部還有台電公司應該拿出更正面的態度。對這個部分，本席後續還是會持續追蹤，部長身為屏東人，還請繼續來給我們努力一下。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請許宇甄委員詢答，許宇甄委員，許宇甄委員不在。","我們現在請蘇清泉委員詢答，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請葉元之委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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臨接台灣的地方有沒有設置陸域風電的場域如果有設置陸域風電的場域因為它的陸域風電成本是相對的非常的低所以我們如果可以把這些產生的電力送回來我相信會讓我們現在面臨到的窘境因為我們必須要有再生能源"},{"start":153.471,"end":164.882,"text":"來support我們的這個綠能所以這個部分我想是我們在努力的一個方向所以部長對陸域風電這塊其實蠻有信心你很支持嘛對不對信不信嘛 部長也很支持這一塊吧"},{"start":167.148,"end":186.593,"text":"我們都是依規定在進行這個所有的這個拓展OK好 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邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符"},{"start":36.423,"end":57.236,"text":"那該巨額款項的用途它不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的一個挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮那進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任"},{"start":57.876,"end":85.651,"text":"其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下呢本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規列規定是嗎"},{"start":86.491,"end":106.028,"text":"跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟"},{"start":106.849,"end":129.135,"text":"行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果"},{"start":130.615,"end":156.654,"text":"跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主計來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此"},{"start":156.834,"end":177.782,"text":"我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論等於可以這麼解讀我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一"},{"start":178.542,"end":204.788,"text":"是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一 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曠日廢時"},{"start":297.803,"end":320.244,"text":"有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明"},{"start":321.564,"end":334.573,"text":"姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆"},{"start":336.167,"end":356.049,"text":"或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成"},{"start":356.169,"end":378.05,"text":"好 把你們精進的方案 請順便資料一份給本席 那麼也就針對這個案子 你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討 那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢 有做處分或做整理嗎"},{"start":379.652,"end":404.887,"text":"關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本是認為你也應當要有內部的行政調查"},{"start":406.629,"end":416.558,"text":"權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中"},{"start":424.947,"end":446.593,"text":"這就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛"},{"start":447.173,"end":464.551,"text":"你認同嗎是是喔 是喔把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到呢這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障"},{"start":465.191,"end":484.712,"text":"那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成"},{"start":485.333,"end":513.911,"text":"分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康"},{"start":515.936,"end":534.251,"text":"市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合 不打你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎"},{"start":544.4,"end":559.199,"text":"報告委員 過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工具的改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來就做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低"},{"start":559.819,"end":582.155,"text":"好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準"},{"start":582.915,"end":607.12,"text":"跟姚蕾說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛"},{"start":607.84,"end":625.197,"text":"罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是不是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1230,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時3分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，根據審計部日前報告指出，針對就業安定基金有高達7,224萬元的支出，它的用途跟法定促進就業、穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符，該鉅額款項的用途不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重的疏失，更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當挪用、決策過程是否透明化等產生疑慮，進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任。其實安定基金在老闆有出錢之後，其目的希望能夠保障勞工的權益，而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力。在這樣的一個情況之下，本席要請教目前聽聞以及媒體報紙上面，據聞部長，您說要編列公務預算以進行歸墊，是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，現在審計部審計的結果是修正、減列並要追回。編列公務預算歸墊是過去如果被判定為修正、減列時的作法之一，當然具體的作法我們也願意再跟行政院、審計部來做討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，外面高度質疑以明年度公務預算來歸墊的部分還沒有定案，是不是？我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意跟行政院來討論，但是勞動部是一個行政部門，我們必須依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，但現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來歸墊，那你現在的說法……"],["洪部長申翰：這是以過去類似情境的作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在的說法是還希望能夠跟審計單位……"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意跟行政院、主計來做相關的討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟行政院討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理，你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意跟大家討論，但是編列公務預算歸墊是過去在遇到類似的相關……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個案子到目前為止，你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論，本席可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來討論什麼樣的作法能夠比較符合審計現在的結果，但是這是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是之一嘛！所以我要讓社會大眾了解，我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮，也希望大家好好做、怎麼依法來做，既然碰到了問題，我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題。所以到目前為止，本席再一次請教，針對之前所說要用明年的公務預算來歸墊一事還沒有定案，是不是可以如此的說呢？"],["洪部長申翰：這是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以不一定這麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：但我們要跟相關的單位來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你現在是部長，所以我們要了解目前的進度，也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：我們之前有說會想要來爭取，但是這是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以還沒有決定哪一種方式？勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們之前有說想要爭取公務預算來歸墊，因為這是過去遇到修正、減列並追回時候的作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解政府預定要怎麼做，所以現在您所提的是預定之一，還沒有真正決定最後要怎麼做，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會來討論，所以還沒有決定、還沒有定案？我們可以這麼說。"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們預定作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你還有之二、之三，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：之二、之三我們還是要討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你現在是行政部門……還要跟相關單位來討論，所以我們可以跟社會大眾說：之前您說要編列明年度的預算公務預算來歸墊，還不一定是這個方式、還在討論中？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們可以跟相關單位再討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你這個「對」，我們就繼續來討論。因為剛剛審計單位、主計單位有說明，而您之前也說如果有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查，但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究畢竟會花滿長的一段時間，曠日費時，因為有很長的司法程序，所以我還是建議，包括之前發生的這個狀況，審計單位也有提出，可是未來在執行的過程當中，你們內部是不是應該要去討論怎麼執行才能讓大家有所依歸，請做說明。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員，你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常好，請說明。"],["洪部長申翰：我們澈底做了內部檢討，在檢討之下已經把過去很多認為可能管理過於寬鬆或在制度面、機制面有問題的部分，其實在今年一月的時候提出了改進跟改革的方案，現在已經在執行中，包括就安基金管理的作法、開口契約的作法、宣傳品流向訂定相關的管理規範等，這些事情都已經完成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請把你們精進的方案給本席一份書面資料。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對這個案子，你們主動做了內部的行政調查嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們做了內部澈底的檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分，有做處分或整理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然如果有責任歸屬的部分，現在監察院在調查，我們完全地配合監察院、檢調的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：完全的配合這是應當，但是行政院勞動部是整個勞工非常重視的部門，所以本席認為您也應當要有內部的行政調查，權責歸屬也應該要去理解。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員，我們其實做了澈底的內部檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊！真的有誤的時候要怎麼做呢？"],["洪部長申翰：關於權責的歸屬、行政的歸屬、政務人員的行政部分，現在都由監察院跟檢調單位在調查中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個就是本席剛才所說的，因為司法的部分曠日廢時還需要滿長的時間，我們希望內部可以去檢討的應該可以先去檢討，我相信你有這個能力。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們會澈底的檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：必須要澈底去檢討到底責任的歸屬是如何？以符合未來在因應整個司法時才有所依歸，你要超前地去做，認同嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，把你的責任歸屬資料給本席。","最後一個議題，我給你功課。因為全球暖化的問題，我們看到夏季氣溫持續拉高，關乎勞工的工作權及健康保障，必須避免高氣溫的環境引發熱疾病。因為本席看到雖然有訂定危害預防規定，但是審計部查核勞動部從2021年到2022年執行戶外的作業，事業單位違反規定的超過三成，分別是33.7%跟32.8%，在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查，有193場次中違規是141場次占73%，部長，違規是73%！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以目前審計部已經提出數字了，你要怎麼樣去調整熱危害預防措施，來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題，其實我們去年已經修了設施規則，針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險，沒有提供飲水、沒有提供遮陽及降溫措施者，我們就可以立即罰了，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們立即罰，結果審計單位說你們去檢查193家，有141家占73%是不符合，部長，你同意73%不符合嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，過去是通知改善，不改善才處罰，營造工地改善是比較能夠快速進行，也因為我們去年訂了比較嚴格的預防機制，事業單位就開始做一些改善，我們有信心今年再做專案檢查時，能夠讓違反熱危害的樣態降低。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，您聽到這個說明，但是給你的答案是，審計單位說你們自己去檢查有73%是不符合的，針對這個議題，因為生命誠可貴，我們要好好照顧我們的勞工，不管是怎麼去改善工地方面還是你們的督導方面，我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，我其實非常關注這個問題，確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主對熱危害的觀念還不夠了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加速去宣導好不好？要讓大家有這個概念。"],["洪部長申翰：所以包括規範、要讓產業界更了解這件事情，我們會盡力來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加速去宣導。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也不希望一直罰、一直罰，因為罰了也沒用，重點是要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工。"],["洪部長申翰：罰當然是執行、落實法規的一個手段，但是我們不是一定非得靠罰。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你這句話就對了。"],["洪部長申翰：可是重點是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實，罰是作法之一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以結果論是不滿意的，73%的檢查是不合格的，我們就有精進的方向。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員、謝謝部長。","涂權吉委員改書面質詢。","接續請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"160008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce685cfed5ba3fcdaaa71339fff88aef015ac7c33fa4103456f7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:57:56 - 13:12:17","影片長度":"00:14:21","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T12:57:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T13:12:17+08:00","duration":861,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.544718750000001,"end":9.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.548468750000001,"end":10.915343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.14659375,"end":41.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.69096875,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.555343750000006,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.187843750000006,"end":50.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.94284375,"end":52.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.00596875,"end":52.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.05221875,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.85784375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.29784375,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.54159375,"end":80.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.67659375000001,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.96346875,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.36846875,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.11846875,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.20659375000001,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.32409375,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.98221875,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.21846875,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.83846875,"end":99.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.44159375000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.93909375000001,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.42409375000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.44409375000001,"end":115.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.19034375000001,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.77596875,"end":123.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.65721875000001,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.81284375000001,"end":139.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.71096875,"end":134.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.31721875,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.54784375,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.95284375,"end":157.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.93034375000002,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.47159375,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.68096875,"end":188.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.67659375000002,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.41909375,"end":200.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.28221875000003,"end":207.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.16721875000002,"end":213.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.55034375000002,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.77784375000002,"end":224.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.14346875,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.47534375,"end":243.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.25034375,"end":253.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.66346875000002,"end":247.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.51034375,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.58596875,"end":256.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.63659375,"end":257.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.22284375000004,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.36159375,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.71534375000005,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.76596875,"end":265.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.92159375,"end":280.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.28409375,"end":272.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.88159375000004,"end":282.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.60284375000003,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.99909375000004,"end":287.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.87659375000004,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEA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也請部長跟署長"},{"start":16.175,"end":41.728,"text":"委員好部長好 署長好還是想請教一下我們這次在這個男子球場發生的事情因為這個事情據說那個紐西蘭媒體也報得很大啦我覺得這是一個蠻嚴重的事件那我先請問一下我們這個男子球場它是有兩個球場嘛對不對有一個是人工草皮的一個天然草皮的嘛 對不對是那現在本來預定的比賽場地是在天然草皮還是在人工草皮"},{"start":42.948,"end":53.68,"text":"委員指的是當初設計還是指現在現在的話天然草皮是主球場紐西蘭要來比賽的天然草皮主球場是要在天然草皮嗎是 因為它有看台那"},{"start":54.892,"end":73.538,"text":"我先來看一下我再請教一個問題因為這個是高雄市政府蓋的球場是吧體育署補助是那如果這個球場有蓋出問題導致有人受傷或者是衍生出後面賠償相關的問題的話是現在由高雄市政府負責還是由體育署來負責"},{"start":74.366,"end":93.023,"text":"包委員通常我們辦賽事的話我們都有運動傷害保險不是啦 那誰負責嘛那如果是這一次的比如說要負一些這個責任啊行政責任啊應該是高雄市政府還是體育署包委員這一次應該是足球協會的行政嚴重疏失那是足球協會發包蓋的嗎"},{"start":95.37,"end":116.948,"text":"不是,但是這個場地本身沒有問題,是草皮的養護養護的部分是足球協會在比賽前他應該要做加強養護那足球協會的主管機關是?體育署所以應該是,如果假設要追行政責任應該是體育署嗎?包委員我們這專業的部分還是希望一再的去要求協會來做對啦,那現在就是要求不夠才產生這個狀況嘛"},{"start":119.196,"end":138.696,"text":"對啊那你現在還要推給所有協會那如果協會的主管機關就是你們啊包委員這部分是專業的部分還是要仰賴協會來協會仰賴協會但是那你等於是放手讓協會隨便亂搞嗎沒有嘛你有監督之責嘛你有監督之責嘛所以相關行政責任當然在你身上我覺得這不要推了啦那我們現在來看一下"},{"start":139.537,"end":157.307,"text":"在去年113年11月的時候高雄市政府運動發展局有申請一個照明的增設計畫這個署長你知道嗎知道你看一下他當時寫一個照明的急迫信說因為天然草皮足球場沒有符合比賽標準照度"},{"start":158.007,"end":176.445,"text":"然後人工草皮的足球場僅預留管線急需完善設置照明以符合比賽及訓練等使用需求換句話說在去年11月他們提出這個計畫的時候他們表示不管是在天然草皮的球場或是人工草皮球場在照明的部分都是不夠"},{"start":177.566,"end":200.091,"text":"好 那我們來看一下他申請這個 因為你們也有核定嘛現在進度是怎麼樣咧我們看這個工程竣工原來預定的時間是在2025年的4月1號那開始 結束是5月31所以現在的照明是還沒有驗收的換句話說紐西蘭他原定是4月8號要在天然草皮的這個球場比賽"},{"start":201.325,"end":223.792,"text":"他的照度如果按照當時申請這個計畫的那個急迫性是說照度不足的那4月8號紐西蘭是在白天還是晚上比賽呢他是在晚上6點半開始比賽高雄的這個日照日落的時間呢是6點17分所以他已經進入到沒有日照的時間"},{"start":225.225,"end":253.344,"text":"所以他今天來比賽按照當初高雄市政府申請這個計畫他的照度是不足的那照度不足的情況之下這個也允許讓這個國際的比賽進行當然人家也會多少也會擔心啊我不知道說署長跟部長有掌握到這個狀況嗎報告委員這次主要的問題在草皮的養護我知道草皮我現在找另外的問題嘛他主要是針對轉播的方面不夠滿足轉播的部分所以需要加強照明"},{"start":254.184,"end":279.914,"text":"你看一下它寫急迫性對 所以它是因為轉播的部分它說未符比賽標準比賽標準照度它不是講說未符比賽轉播標準一般是轉播的原因它是比賽的一環那為什麼它急迫性沒有寫說因應轉播需求它寫的是未符比賽標準照度嘛所以我覺得組長大家現在要面對問題啦好不好 這個你再去查一下然後再來我想請教一下"},{"start":281.796,"end":308.389,"text":"呃 現在因為有 有購票嘛 這次有購票嘛對吧 有購票嘛是那 這個票價200到400我之前看新聞好像是講說會在 什麼時候會完成退票這部分已經 陸續已經開始了陸 陸續什麼 沒有啦 之前有說會完 已經有王子已經貼出來了蛤啊 王子已經貼出來了所以大概什麼時間以內要完成因為你購票的求名的權益你也要維持啊是大概什麼 你會要求主協什麼時候會完成退票程序"},{"start":308.854,"end":325.472,"text":"包委員他已經開始在進行這件事情了對我知道嘛有在開始那你總是有騎乘嘛組長你回答問題不要這樣一副來吵架的樣子好不好現在問你問題都是問在問消費者的權益你就回答就好了嘛我知道開始啦但是你什麼時候要完成嘛這已經開始啦好那繼續繼續"},{"start":329.315,"end":339.932,"text":"那請問一下署長 這個是高雄男子足球場的貼文嘛 對吧那它的委管 請問一下這個博文健康事業股份有限公司它的角色是什麼"},{"start":340.438,"end":363.162,"text":"他是高雄市政府在南子文中球場的OT廠商OT廠商那他很積極的招商不是招商啦就是很積極的行銷這個球場是OK的啦那我想問一下你看一下左邊這張照片這個是在天然草皮還是人工草皮這個是在天然草皮在天然草皮那右邊右邊所以右邊是同一個賽事嘛對吧"},{"start":364.569,"end":391.101,"text":"右邊我看不出來這台天然草坪那你看一下喔他說因應全國少年盃調整賽程4月6號將會有舉辦部分賽事對吧所以我們這個小朋友他們比賽的場地跟紐西蘭要來比賽場地是同一個通常 包委員通常小朋友的賽事有可能會在人工足球場沒有 我剛剛問你說是天然還人工你說是天然這個照片應該不是現在的照片那你去了解一下好不好是"},{"start":391.781,"end":402.207,"text":"你去了解 因為你不確定嘛其實如果說紐西蘭球員都覺得天安草皮這個球場不OK的話但是讓我們的小朋友在上面比賽那會不會也會引起小朋友的受傷"},{"start":403.797,"end":429.367,"text":"懂我意思嗎?懂那你去了解,因為你現在不確定嘛如果說他這個也是在天然草皮上面比的話那就有受傷的風險嘛,對吧?你現在整個球場有說停止使用嗎?有要求他停止使用?他目前正在養護當中不過少年的這一塊塞是通常在人工草皮那裡做的那你去確定一下,好不好?再來我們來看一下因為,下一頁因為這個其實有一個新聞他是這樣講的他說"},{"start":431.708,"end":460.245,"text":"壓垮這個事件的最後一個稻草就是紐西蘭為什麼最後宣布不比賽了是因為有紐西蘭的球員在人工草皮訓練受傷及早回國在人工草皮所以雖然說比賽球場是在天然草皮但他們會在人工草皮那邊練習那所以人工草皮這個球場可能也會造成問題那我現在就來請教一下我們這個球場應該是有申請FIFA的認證有吧"},{"start":461.752,"end":480.946,"text":"這個場地的人工草皮足球場有申請認證至於他們的練習場可能是在義大那邊在義大那邊他的新聞寫的是說是在這個球場的人工草皮我再瞭解一下因為目前我沒有特別你都還沒有很瞭解這個事件的來龍去脈那我們來看一下這個FIFA的"},{"start":481.874,"end":504.144,"text":"我們一般來說FIBA有兩個認證的標準嘛一個是Quality一個是Quality Pro嘛Quality主要是針對業餘的那Pro的話當然就是要最高水準的職業水準嘛我們現在這個男子球場應該是Pro吧是應該是Pro吧那你看一下我們就看一下那個FIBA的資料喔那裡面有一個很特別的一個公司"},{"start":505.27,"end":529.99,"text":"我不知道署長能不能回答啦如果沒有的話也請去了解一下他的provider叫做Co-Creation Grass Company這家公司你去了解我相信你也不知道啦應該不知道吧因為這家公司我查了一下他的背景呢他是一個中國公司然後這個公司是由江蘇的王氏兄弟所擁有所以我們"},{"start":531.363,"end":544.683,"text":"就是提供給FIFA認證的把高雄男子球場提供給FIFA警察認證的這家公司是一個中國公司這個 蘇勇你了解為什麼是這樣嗎"},{"start":545.632,"end":561.891,"text":"包委員當時在蓋的時候我並沒有在任內所以我其實對這件事情是不了解的對 但是你今天來你都沒有預期到大家會問你籌搶的問題你在乎的是它是品質的問題還是它是中國的企業我剛剛前面在講品質問題嘛我現在只是說因為看到這個問"},{"start":563.172,"end":591.949,"text":"請你了解一下嘛會就是說為什麼這個男子的球場他是由中國公司去申請認證還是怎麼樣就是他的角色是什麼是來自於剛剛依照這個網頁的確他背後是中資對那這為什麼這個部分我當時不曉得你不了解嘛那還有一個問題是因為按照這個圖啊我們可以看到他的認證的期限快到了到2025年的4月30號就是這個月的月底"},{"start":592.759,"end":600.494,"text":"那你們現在還有要繼續申請嗎?幫委員這部分我會再跟高雄市做了解不過我知道這個場地並沒有在用作國際賽事"},{"start":602.369,"end":625.874,"text":"沒有,那...沒有,所以...包委員,天然草皮不需要認證,人工草皮才需要認證而這個球場人工草皮是用在比較輕少年少年的部分所以你的意思是說,有可能他就不申請嘛,對不對?這個部分我還要再...但是因為當時這個球場在申請預算補助的時候他們就有講說,他們會以朝向申請FIFA的這個..."},{"start":628.275,"end":644.674,"text":"因為當時足球場是要用人工草皮但是後來在當時的足球協會的建議之下改成天然草皮因為國家級的賽事是以天然草皮所以天然草皮就不需要認證所以其實你看從一開始他申請他所列的指標到後來"},{"start":645.755,"end":665.264,"text":"變了很多次然後現在現在又出現說你現在不知道他要不要繼續申請的狀況嘛那當然我覺得為什麼他一開始他要去申請就是希望說這個比賽的場地可以比較高的規格嘛那剛剛我問的是說跟人工草皮有關的是球員有可能會在人工草皮練習嘛那有可能因為練習而受傷嘛所以"},{"start":667.245,"end":694.304,"text":"今天人工草皮雖然它不是國際比賽的場地但是你也是要去維護要符合一定的標準特別是像FIFA的認證比如說以人工草皮來講它有六大項三十九個細節包括足球回籃測試草纖維的高度密度等等它其實都有重視所以球場當然是有認證比較好我們絕對不會因為說算了我不要去認證反正它沒有要國際比賽我就不要認證"},{"start":695.526,"end":707.404,"text":"我覺得這樣的一個態度感覺得過且過所以是不是還是可以朝向去申請認證的角度去要求這個部分目前全責在高雄市政府我會來跟他們溝通"},{"start":709.707,"end":734.913,"text":"對呀當然啦我覺得署長你今天的答詢喔你都好像很怕大家在責罵你其實沒有大家只是想要把這個問題吧一些問題點出來希望球場好而已然後不希望說又發生類似的事件其實天然草皮是更高階的但是他的確需要好的草皮我現在在講人工草皮嘛你又扯到天然草皮但是我說當時為什麼沒有做人工草皮是因為他把主球場改成"},{"start":735.513,"end":756.394,"text":"因為你去改天然草皮我沒有意見啊你把天然品弄更好我沒有意見嘛我現在講的是人工草皮嘛但是因為一般Quality Pro的要求主要是因為要顧及賽事才會去做這樣一個因為第一個你當時你在申請經費的時候你們就是說要做那個Quality Pro的認證嘛當時就有嘛"},{"start":757.642,"end":781.297,"text":"那現在只是說希望你繼續維持而已嘛那天然你說要弄更好一點大家都希望啊這個我沒有意見啊啊人工我剛剛就提出來說有一個消息指出有球員可能是在人工草皮上面受傷所以計照回國啊這是壓垮他們最後取消賽事的最後一根稻草啊所以不管是人工天然我們都希望能夠最高規格啊這個我不知道部長你認同嗎"},{"start":782.805,"end":804.779,"text":"當然這個好的一個品質我覺得那個署長一直在打折扣而且當初這個計畫是足球六年計畫裡面一個完善硬體設施本來是申請2.38億後來核定3.5億其實這個就是當初要發展足球一個很重要的項目所以繼續維持有那麼難嗎為什麼好像"},{"start":808.23,"end":831.862,"text":"現在我們的答詢就是 沒有啦 我也沒有要做反正得過且過就好了啦 去人工比就好了啦追求好的一個品質 甚至能夠有好的一個比賽場地跟好的一個球隊 以及對選手的這個安全的維護我想那都是我們基本上的一個態度 也是責任對啦 我自覺應該要朝向"},{"start":833.266,"end":856.965,"text":"盡量把場地做到好吧好不好也不要再出現類似的狀況那剛剛署長跟你請教那些你沒有辦法回答的問題大概什麼時候可以盡快的提供給我我大概這個星期我就會趕快去了解那我們希望在一個月之內給你一個書面報告一個月我剛問的其實很簡單回答那我就問到之後就把細節提供給我們好沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝易元之委員部長署長請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時58分）麻煩請部長跟體育署長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請部長跟署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，署長好。我還是想請教一下這次在楠梓足球場發生的事情，因為這個事情據說紐西蘭媒體也報得很大，我覺得這是一個滿嚴重的事件。我先請問一下，我們楠梓足球場有兩個球場，一個是人工草皮的，一個是天然草皮，對吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：本來預定的比賽場地是在天然草皮，還是在人工草皮？"],["鄭署長世忠：委員指的是當初設計還是指現在？現在的話是天然草皮主球場。"],["葉委員元之：紐西蘭要來比賽的場地。"],["鄭署長世忠：天然草皮主球場。"],["葉委員元之：是要在天然草皮的嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，因為它有看台。"],["葉委員元之：我再請教一個問題，這個是高雄市政府蓋的球場，是吧？體育署補助的？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：如果這個球場蓋出了問題，導致有人受傷或者是衍生出後面賠償相關問題的話，應該由高雄市政府負責還是由體育署來負責？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，通常我們辦賽事的話都有運動傷害保險。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦，是誰負責嘛！比如說要負一些行政責任，應該是高雄市政府還是體育署？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這一次的話，應該是足球協會的行政嚴重疏失。"],["葉委員元之：是足球協會發包蓋的嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：不是，但是這個場地本身沒有維護草皮的養護。"],["葉委員元之：養護的部分是足球協會負責？"],["鄭署長世忠：在比賽前，他應該要做加強養護。"],["葉委員元之：足球協會的主管機關是體育署，所以假設要追行政責任應該是體育署嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，專業的部分我們還是希望，也一再地要求協會來做。"],["葉委員元之：對啦！現在就是要求不夠才產生這個狀況嘛！那你現在還要推給足球協會，足球協會的主管機關就是你們啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分是專業的部分，還是要仰賴協會來協助……"],["葉委員元之：仰賴協會？那你等於是放手讓協會隨便亂搞的嗎？沒有嘛！你有監督之責啊！所以相關的行政責任當然在你身上，我覺得這就不要推了啦。我們再看去（113）年11月的時候，高雄市政府運動發展局曾提出一個增設照明的申請計畫，署長你知道嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：SOP的部分我們已經有做要求了。報告委員，我們其實有去要求，有去監督。知道。"],["葉委員元之：你看一下他當時寫這個照明設備的急迫性──因為天然草皮足球場沒有符合比賽標準照度，人工草皮的足球場僅預留管線，亟需完善設置照明，以符合比賽及訓練等使用需求。換句話說，他們在去年11月提出這個計畫的時候，表示不管是在天然草皮的球場或是人工草皮的球場，照明的部分都不夠。因為你們也已核定，請問現在的進度怎麼樣？這個工程原來預定的時間是在2025年4月1日開始，5月31日結束，所以照明的部分現在是還沒有驗收。而紐西蘭原訂4月8日要在天然草皮的這個球場比賽，按照當時申請這個計畫的急迫性是說照度不足，那麼4月8日紐西蘭球隊是在白天還是晚上比賽呢？他們是在晚上六點半開始比賽，高雄的日落時間是6點17分，已經進入到沒有日照的時間，按照高雄市政府當初申請的這個計畫，它的照度是不足的；在照度不足的情況下，允許這個國際的比賽進行，當然人家多多少少也會擔心。不知道說署長跟部長有掌握到這個狀況嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這次主要的問題在草皮的養護……"],["葉委員元之：我知道是草皮，我現在提另外的問題。"],["鄭署長世忠：照明的部分，他們主要是針對轉播的方面不夠滿足轉播的需求，所以需要加強照明。"],["葉委員元之：你看一下他寫的急迫性……"],["鄭署長世忠：對，他是因為轉播的部分……"],["葉委員元之：他說未符比賽標準照度，他不是說未符比賽轉播標準……"],["鄭署長世忠：就是比賽的時候他有轉播，必須符合轉播的需求。一般是轉播的原因，它也是比賽的一環。"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼他的急迫性沒有寫說因應轉播需求？他寫的是未符比賽標準照度嘛！署長，我覺得大家現在要面對問題，這個部分你再去查一下。再請教一下，現在因為這次有購票，對吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：票價在兩百到四百，我之前看新聞好像說會在什麼時候會完成退票？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分已經陸續開始了，網址已經貼出來，可以開始……"],["葉委員元之：所以大概是什麼時間以內要完成？因為購票人的權益也要維持啊。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：你會要求足協什麼時候完成退票程序？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，他們已經開始在進行這件事情了。"],["葉委員元之：對，我知道已經開始，你總是要有一個期程！"],["鄭署長世忠：這個當然是要……"],["葉委員元之：署長回答問題不要這樣一直在吵架，現在問你問題都是在問消費者的權益，你回答就好了嘛！我知道開始了，就是問你什麼時候要完成。"],["鄭署長世忠：這已經開始了。"],["葉委員元之：好，那就繼續請問署長，這個是高雄楠梓足球場的貼文，對吧！請問一下，柏文健康事業股份有限公司的角色是什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：它是高雄市政府在楠梓文中球場的OT廠商。"],["葉委員元之：是OT廠商！它很積極的在行銷這個球場是OK的。我想請你看一下左邊這張照片是在天然草皮，還是人工草皮？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個是在天然草皮。"],["葉委員元之：右邊這張是同一個賽事嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：右邊的部分，我看不出來。"],["葉委員元之：你看一下它寫的：因應全國少年盃調整賽程，4月6號將會有舉辦部分賽事，所以小朋友他們比賽的場地跟紐西蘭要來比賽的場地是同一個？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，通常小朋友的賽事有可能會在人工足球場。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我剛剛問你這個是天然還人工，你說是天然……"],["鄭署長世忠：這個應該不是現在的照片。"],["葉委員元之：那你去了解一下，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：因為你不確定嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：我不確定。"],["葉委員元之：如果紐西蘭球員都覺得天然草皮的球場不OK的話，讓我們的小朋友在上面比賽，是否也會引起小朋友的受傷？懂我的意思嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：懂。"],["葉委員元之：你去了解，因為你現在不確定嘛！如果他們這個也是在天然草皮上面比賽的話，那就有受傷的風險，對吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：當然。"],["葉委員元之：現在有要求整個球場有停止使用嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：它目前正在養護當中，不過少年賽事這一塊，通常是在人工草皮。"],["葉委員元之：那你去確定一下。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：我們再看下一頁，有一則新聞是這樣講的，它說壓垮這個事件的最後一根稻草，就是紐西蘭為什麼最後宣布不比賽，是因為有紐西蘭的球員在人工草皮訓練時受傷，提早回國。雖然說比賽球場是在天然草皮，但他們會在人工草皮那邊練習，所以人工草皮這個球場可能也會造成問題。我現在就來請教一下，我們這個球場應該是有申請FIFA的認證吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個人工草皮足球場有申請認證，至於他們的練習場，可能是在義大那一邊。"],["葉委員元之：在義大那邊？可是新聞寫的是在這個球場的人工草皮……"],["鄭署長世忠：我再了解一下，因為目前我沒有特別去……"],["葉委員元之：你都還沒有很了解這個事件的來龍去脈！一般來說，FIFA有兩個認證的標準，一個是Quality，一個是Quality Pro。Quality主要是針對業餘的，Pro當然就是要最高水準的職業水準，現在這個楠梓球場應該是Pro吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：你看一下FIFA的資料，裡面有一個很特別的公司，我不知道署長能不能回答，如果沒有的話，也請去了解一下，它的Provider叫做CoCreation Grass Co.，相信你應該也不知道這家公司。我查了一下這家公司的背景，它是一個中國公司，是江蘇的王氏兄弟所擁有。所以我們把高雄楠梓球場提供給FIFA，請它認證的這家公司是一個中國公司，署長了解為什麼是這樣嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，當時在蓋的時候，我沒有在任內，所以我對這件事情其實是不了解的。"],["葉委員元之：但是你今天來，你都沒有預期到大家會問你球場的問題……"],["鄭署長世忠：您在乎的是它的品質問題，還是它是中國的企業？"],["葉委員元之：不，不，我剛剛前面在講品質問題嘛，我現在是因為看到這個問題，請你了解一下。"],["鄭署長世忠：會，我們會去了解。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼楠梓球場是由中國公司去申請認證，還是怎麼樣？它的角色是什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：剛剛依照這個網頁，的確它背後是中資。"],["葉委員元之：這是為什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個部分，我不了解……"],["葉委員元之：你不了解嘛！還有一個問題，按照這個圖，我們可以看到它的認證期限快到了，就是2025年4月30日，也就是這個月底，你們現在還要繼續申請嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我會再跟高雄市做了解，不過，我知道這個場地並沒有用在國際賽事。"],["葉委員元之：沒有？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有。報告委員，天然草皮不需要認證，人工草皮才需要認證，現在人工草皮是用在……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我知道。所以你的意思是，有可能它就不申請了，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個部分我還要再……"],["葉委員元之：因為當時這個球場在申請預算補助的時候，他們就講了，他們會朝向FIFA申請PRO認證球場……"],["鄭署長世忠：因為原始規劃的足球場是用人工草皮，後來是在當時的足球協會建議之下，改成天然草皮，因為國家級的賽事是以天然草皮，所以天然草皮就不需要認證。"],["葉委員元之：其實從一開始申請，他所列的指標，到後來變了很多次，然後現在又出現你不知道他要不要繼續申請的狀況嘛！為什麼一開始他要去申請，就是希望這個比賽的場地可以有比較高的規格；剛剛我問跟人工草皮有關的問題──球員有可能會用人工草皮練習，有可能因為練習而受傷。所以，人工草皮雖然不是國際比賽的場地，但是你也要去維護，要符合一定的標準！特別是FIFA的認證，若以人工草皮來講，它有6大項，39個細節，包括足球回彈測試、草纖維的高度密度等等，它其實都有重視。所以球場當然是有認證比較好啊！所以絕對不會說：算了，我不要去認證好了，反正它沒有要用於國際比賽，就不要認證。我覺得這樣的一個態度，感覺是得過且過！所以，是不是還是可以朝向去申請認證的角度去要求？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個部分目前權責是在高雄市政府，我會來跟他們溝通。"],["葉委員元之：當然啦！我覺得署長你今天的答詢，好像很怕大家都責罵你，其實沒有！大家只是想要把一些問題點出來，希望球場好而已，不過我還是不希望因為發生類似的事件……"],["鄭署長世忠：其實天然草皮是更高階的，但是它的確需要好的草皮維護……"],["葉委員元之：我現在講人工草皮，你又提天然草皮……"],["鄭署長世忠：我說當時為什麼沒有做人工草皮，是因為他把主球場改成更好的天然草皮……"],["葉委員元之：你改天然草皮，我沒有意見！你把天然草皮弄得更好，我沒有意見，我現在講的是人工草皮。"],["鄭署長世忠：因為一般Quality Pro的要求，主要是因為要辦國際賽事才會去做這樣的……"],["葉委員元之：對，第一個因為當時你在申請經費的時候，就是說要做Quality 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主席我們有請我們陳部長請部長"},{"start":17.365,"end":34.812,"text":"部長好 本席非常珍惜有機會跟您在這邊來做交流謝謝為什麼說很認識這個機會因為在這個會期我們好幾次本席就邀請你到辦公室就是想要跟部長來討論目前我們跟花東居民交通有關的一些議題"},{"start":36.272,"end":63.459,"text":"像是我們的花東快還有最近車票漲價的事情可是部長在辦公室一直回應說你都沒時間那我想說不然次長來一下次長也說他都沒時間我想說真的都很忙都沒有時間真的難得有機會可以到交通委員會來質詢就希望能夠當面跟部長來說一些翻一下台東一些鄉親的聲音謝謝委員但是我們也納悶就是看到假日的時候部長都為了大發明旋轉到各地去宣講實際上都沒時間"},{"start":65.62,"end":82.795,"text":"所以所以本席要提醒部長部長我沒有到處去啊是否定我要提醒否定你這個選舉應該是錯的喔部長我們上一次在跟行政院長到台東看戰的時候部長你跟本席也聊過說要不然來當有交通的問題希望都可以做到合作嘛對不對當然所以部長我要提醒部長好"},{"start":83.576,"end":111.729,"text":"身為交通部長責任維護台東人交通的權益是很重要的一個工作那這邊我想要跟部長說未來以後本市如果召開相關的活動希望補充跟台東有些重大意義的這些交通議題就是部長如果沒有時間是不是可以請市長也來一下讓我們來正面的來溝通我們來安排謝謝部長的承諾好那我們現在進入今天的重點就是說在禮拜一的時候我們台股創下史上大跌幅的一天"},{"start":112.689,"end":138.531,"text":"那天就有一個朋友說 每天都落一支旗他就把台鐵車票拿出來說 台鐵漲了26%那你看在這樣的情況之下整個經濟都已經很低迷的時候台鐵漲價對台灣民眾都是雪上加霜對不對 我們台東啊未來台東漲價之後 台北台東來回漲了300塊這個本來交通弱勢的台東就是雪上加霜對台東人真的情何以堪"},{"start":139.392,"end":151.066,"text":"那我們這些東西介紹跟西部一樣但是我們的交通的品質其實又還沒有達到跟西部一樣的狀況西部有高鐵、有高速公路、有台鐵、銅鑼山鐵我們台鐵只有一條"},{"start":153.851,"end":179.317,"text":"台九線以及火車那我們印象還深刻0403強震之後接著連接的幾個牆台整個東部的交通也好觀光也好產業也好都非常非常的低迷也還沒有完全復原那今年中秋清明年假我們的住房率那個業者說甚至不到五成不到五成那"},{"start":180.723,"end":197.576,"text":"相對於在台東整個交通跟觀光還在復原的階段裡面那本席去年在立法院兩度提案來要求中央來動漲台鐵東部的票價後來交通部也承諾在春節之前不會漲沒想到我們二月的時候台鐵就宣布要漲價"},{"start":198.897,"end":223.967,"text":"那第一時間我們本席也跟部裡面提出三個要求第一個就是中央應該要信守承諾遵守承諾在災害災損未完全之前考慮東部交通的特殊性及困境動漲東部的票價第二個是提供我們花東居民早鳥實名制的優惠減少我們台東居民返鄉的成本第三個當然是增加我們南回鐵路的班次能夠提供"},{"start":224.887,"end":239.662,"text":"往反東部的替代的選擇那減少這可以促進我們觀光的這個人潮那後來在3月份的上旬我跟交通部跟台鐵的討論就是說如果未來真的台鐵必須要漲價"},{"start":240.663,"end":261.696,"text":"是不是可以由花東基金的部分來補貼居民三層的這個票價作為抗漲的這個方案那台內董事長這邊也認為說這個方向其實有機會來做的因為我們481的花東基金本來就是它既有的財源是花東基金那這個基金成立的目的就是希望能夠提升花東居民的這個福祉我想這個絕對符合這個目的的使用性"},{"start":263.735,"end":277.964,"text":"另外在3月份的時候我也在經濟委員會當面跟我們那個國發會主委來請教就是說我們能不能夠比照離島條例裡面的方式補助三成的票價給我們的居民那透過河東基金的部分來補助"},{"start":279.462,"end":303.251,"text":"我們的車票 國發會的主委也正面的來回應說如果在符合條件下願意來支持在這裡我要具體的請教我們保證不管是台鐵 國發會都覺得這個方向是可行的那未來我想不論中央或是縣府提案我們都可以後續來做討論重點是中央會不會來支持中央真的不能再把台東當作是二等居民"},{"start":304.281,"end":319.395,"text":"我想我們讓我們能夠享受實質的評價這個我們在質詢的時候都跟部長談過嘛交通真的要平權我們要落實它嘛所以部長你願不願意支持花東基金來補貼東部居民三層台鐵票價這部分花東基金是國發會"},{"start":320.856,"end":344.213,"text":"那委員剛剛也有說有跟國發會主委說過啦但是花東基金這不是我們管的但我們自己能做的是什麼我們現在正在跟台鐵正在研議就是說花東的鄉親的彈性票價的優惠方案如果我們是住在那個地方然後有加入他們的會員台鐵的會員因為他們有個常客優惠啦兩個人加在一起的話"},{"start":344.913,"end":365.144,"text":"提供多一些的優惠給花東的鄉親讓花東鄉親的這個返鄉的這個成本可以降低委員您剛剛在提醒了其實我們都有注意到在東部地區確實我們是以台鐵為主以鐵路為主然後還有一個台九線那他們的這個運具的選擇相對上少啦所以能夠支持花東的鄉親我們一定會盡量來努力"},{"start":365.524,"end":380.025,"text":"所以這個方案如果說國發會這邊支持那交通部這邊也願意來支持最後要決定的是國發會啦所以國發會支持我們沒有不支持的道理所以也支持也在問齁也是會支持啦對不對部長他們如果願意支持當然我們沒有反對的道理謝謝部長的聯絡 謝謝部長"},{"start":381.167,"end":400.462,"text":"那最後我利用一點時間我想要再為華東快來請命我上個月媒體報導華東快因為中央認為經濟效益差被推薦那後來交通部有說有請這個公務局重新做這個修正再送那據本席的瞭解我們公務局在4月2號就已經完成這個修正重新送件"},{"start":401.263,"end":419.812,"text":"那部長還記得我們去年7月立法院通過的主決議清楚的寫下就是說交通部要儘速推動花東快速公路興建可行性評估於113年8月份完成期末報告我們現在已經是84年4月份我們已經過半年多囉"},{"start":420.712,"end":438.017,"text":"那這個部分交通部是不是能夠務必來加速我想要請教部長說那目前我們這個評估報告進度是怎麼樣什麼時候會完成確實他效益目前看起來是不足啦而且您在台東也應該相當清楚我們現在正在進行這個安全景觀大道的這個拓寬的工程"},{"start":438.437,"end":456.591,"text":"你也相當清楚也就是說未來整體的交通的運量的量能我們目前正在用工程的方法要提高那另外大家一直在希望尤其是委員在講的這個花東快的部分確實目前看起來它的可行的方案還沒有到很可行他們目前正在討論假使用分段來討論或許就有機會"},{"start":460.914,"end":483.922,"text":"那什麼時候進度我們評估報告是什麼時候可以來完成因為這個很多台東鄉親、花東鄉親都很關心的你評估的時間大家可以寫給大家鄉親知道評估的時間喔對啊因為安全性評估這部分是主決意是說要在去年8月就要完成現在已經是今年114年已經到4月已經過半年多了可是現在評估報告都還沒出來報告員"},{"start":485.543,"end":510.041,"text":"以現在那個效益不高的狀況底下,如果現在要立刻出報告,那就是不可行所以我們現在希望把它找可行的方案出來,所以需要一些時間你這樣說我緊張,我聽說沒有辦法做,我嚇到,如果不行的話現在的效益是真的不是不足啊真的是不足,如果你要以現在來討論的話,那真的就是可能不可行"},{"start":510.521,"end":524.199,"text":"但我們現在交通部正在努力找有沒有哪一段是可行的方案我們想辦法把它用出來所以需要一些時間謝謝部長部長那個主席都站起來了我用了一點點時間那還是最後還是要再請交通部這邊要盡快的來做這些的評估"},{"start":526.622,"end":546.535,"text":"因為花東快速道路是整個台東往北很重要的一個道路那未來如果花東快完成南迴的方向也改變這才能夠有效的打通台東交通的任督而邁這部分再請部長我們一起為後山的鄉親來一起努力好 我們來努力感謝博定 謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1103,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（12時43分）謝謝主席。有請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：本席非常珍惜有機會跟部長在這邊做交流。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：為什麼說很珍惜這個機會？因為本席在這個會期曾好幾次想邀請部長到辦公室，來討論跟花東居民交通有關的一些議題，像我們的花東快，還有最近車票漲價的事情，可是部長辦公室一直回應說你都沒時間；那我就想不然請次長來一下，次長也說他都沒時間，我想你們真的都很忙，都沒有時間。今天難得有機會可以到交通委員會質詢，希望能夠當面跟部長反映一些臺東鄉親的聲音。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：但是我們也納悶，假日的時候，看到部長為了大罷免到各地去宣講，為什麼說都沒時間？所以本席要提醒部長……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我沒有到處去，你的資訊應該是錯的。"],["黃委員建賓：我們上次跟行政院長到臺東勘災的時候，部長跟本席也說過，以後臺東有交通的問題，希望我們可以一起合作，對不對？所以，我要提醒部長，身為交通部長的責任，維護臺東人交通的權益，是很重要的一個工作。我想要跟部長說，未來如果本席召開相關的活動，或是跟臺東交通有關的這些重大議題，部長若沒有時間，是不是可以請次長來一下，讓我們可以正面的來溝通。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來安排。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長的承諾。我們現在進入今天的重點，在禮拜一的時候，是台股創下史上大跌幅的一天，就有一個朋友說每支股票都跌了，但有一支漲上去，他把臺鐵車票拿出來說臺鐵票價漲了26%！在整個經濟都已經很低迷的時候，臺鐵漲價，對臺灣民眾可說是雪上加霜，特別是我們臺東的民眾，未來臺鐵車票漲價之後，臺北、臺東來回漲了三百塊，對本來就交通弱勢的臺東來說，無疑是雪上加霜，對臺東人更是情何以堪？我們的物價跟西部一樣貴，但是我們在交通上的品質其實都還沒有達到跟西部一樣的狀況，西部有高鐵、高速公路和臺鐵可以選擇，我們臺東只有一條台9線跟火車。","我們印象很深刻，在0403強震之後，連接著有幾個強颱，讓整個東部的交通、觀光、產業都非常非常的低迷，也還沒有完全復原，今年的清明連假，業者說我們的住房率，甚至不到五成。在臺東整個交通跟觀光還在復原的階段，本席去年在立法院兩度提案，要求中央來凍漲臺鐵東部的票價，交通部也承諾在春節之前不會漲，沒想到2月的時候，臺鐵就宣布要漲價。本席在第一時間也跟部裡面提出三個要求：第一個，就是中央應該要信守承諾，遵守承諾，在災害災損未完全之前，考慮東部交通的特殊性以及困境，凍漲東部的票價；第二個，是提供花東居民早鳥實名制的優惠，減少我們臺東居民返鄉的成本；第三個，當然是增加南迴鐵路的班次，能夠提供往返東部的替代選擇，以促進觀光人潮。另外，我在3月上旬也跟交通部、臺鐵討論，如果臺鐵未來真的必須要漲價，是不是可以由花東基金的部分來補貼居民三成的票價，作為抗漲幅的方案？臺鐵董事長也認為這個方向是有機會來做的，因為這400億的花東基金是既有的財源，它成立的目的就是希望能夠提升花東居民的福祉，我想這在使用性絕對符合這個目的。","另外，在3月份的時候，我也在經濟委員會當面向國發會主委請教，能不能夠比照離島條例的方式，透過花東基金的部分，補助三成的票價給我們的居民？國發會主委也正面回應說，如果在符合條件下，願意來支持。我在這裡要具體的請教部長，不管是臺鐵或國發會都覺得這方向是可行的。我想未來不論中央或是縣府提案，我們後續都可以來討論，但重點是中央會不會來支持？中央真的不能再把臺東當作二等居民，希望讓我們能夠享受實質的平等，這部分我們在質詢的時候，都跟部長談過，交通真的要平權，我們要落實它。請問部長願不願意支持花東基金來補貼東部居民三成臺鐵票價？"],["陳部長世凱：花東基金是國發會主管，委員剛剛也說了，有跟國發會主委說過，因為花東基金不是我們主管，我們自己能做的就是我們正在跟臺鐵研議，花東鄉親彈性票價的優惠方案，如果我們是住在那個地方，然後有加入臺鐵的會員，因為他們有常客優惠，兩個加在一起，提供多一些的優惠給花東的鄉親，讓花東鄉親返鄉成本可以降低。委員剛剛在提醒的，其實我們都有注意到，我們在東部地區，確實是以臺鐵為主，然後還有一個台9線，他們在運具的選擇上是相對少的，所以能夠支持花東的鄉親，我們一定會儘量來努力。"],["黃委員建賓：對於這個方案，如果國發會支持，交通部也願意來支持？"],["陳部長世凱：最後決定的是國發會，國發會支持，我們沒有不支持的道理。"],["黃委員建賓：所以你們也支持，對不對？也是會支持嘛，部長？"],["陳部長世凱：他們如果願意支持，當然我們也沒有反對的道理。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長允諾。最後我利用一點時間，想要再為花東快來請命。上個月有媒體報導，因為中央認為花東快的經濟效益差，而被退件，後來交通部也說了，有請公路局重新修正之後再送，據本席了解，公路局在4月2日就已經完成這個修正，重新送件。部長還記得立法院去年7月通過的主決議，清楚的寫下：交通部要儘速推動花東快速公路興建可行性評估，於113年8月份完成期末報告。現在已經是114年4月，都過了半年多，交通部是不是能夠務必來加速？我想請教部長，目前這個評估報告的進度是怎麼樣？什麼時候會完成？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前看起來它的效益確實是不足，而且您在臺東也相當清楚，我們現正在進行安全景觀大道的拓寬工程，也就是未來整體交通運量的量能，我們目前正在用工程的方法來提高。另外，大家一直在希望，尤其是委員所講的花東快這個部分，目前看起來，它的可行的方案確實還沒有到很可行，我們目前正在討論，如果用分段來討論或許就有機會。"],["黃委員建賓：我們的評估報告什麼時候可以來完成？因為這是很多臺東鄉親、花東鄉親都關心的。評估報告的時間，大概什麼時候可以讓鄉親知道？因為安全性評估這部分，立法院的主決議是去年8月就要完成，現在都已經到114年4月，過了半年多，可是評估報告都還沒出來。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，以現在效益不高的狀況下，如果現在要立刻出報告，那就是不可行。"],["黃委員建賓：所以？"],["陳部長世凱：所以我們現在就要找可行的方案出來，需要一些時間。"],["黃委員建賓：你這樣說，讓我很緊張，以為說不做了，我嚇到了，如果不行的話……"],["陳部長世凱：現在的效益是真的是不足，如果要以現在來討論的話，那可能真的就不可行，但交通部正在努力找出有沒有哪一段是可行的方案，我們想辦法把它做出來，所以需要一些時間。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，主席都站起來了，我最後用一點點時間，請交通部儘快來做最新的評估，因為花東快速道路是整個臺東往北很重要的一個道路，未來如果花東快完成、南迴的方向也改變，這樣才能夠有效打通臺東交通的任督二脈。我們請部長一起為後山的鄉親來努力，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力。"],["黃委員建賓：感謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，大家辛苦了，後面還有不少人登記發言，我們先休息20分鐘，等一下再開會。","休息（12時52分）","繼續開會（13時19分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","我們請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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楊瓊發言 邀請部長請部長謝謝委員好部長好 我們來討論在112年的時候 11月份他核定了台中國際機場2040年整體的規劃其中清楚地寫到2040年的850萬人次旅運量"},{"start":34.446,"end":61.563,"text":"中部地區國際門戶的機場等規劃所以首先本席要請教中進中出我相信您擔任市議員的時候擔任縣議員的時候大家都極力的朝這個方向所以請教中進中出還要幾年這是第一個問題那麼我們台中機場的航廈規劃你是不是有比較具體的一個方案"},{"start":62.483,"end":91.73,"text":"因為我們認識到說台中地區跟中部地區的產業我們都非常的希望我們可以再到東雲或者是高雄或者還要到松山來而且它不只是交通問題它更能夠促進我們整個中台灣的觀光會展我們的製造業還有我們的農產品的這一些都是非常的重要都是一個關聯性但是我們看到目前台中機場我們的航線太少了"},{"start":92.29,"end":108.246,"text":"我們的航班密度也不足那很難撐起國際的這個門戶在這樣的一個情況之下我們又看到交通部民航局給我們的一個資料他說明了他說台中機場受限於線型的跑道長度"},{"start":109.186,"end":136.901,"text":"與空域配置的限制所以目前起降呢那麼有限所以在這樣的情況之下更難吸引到國際的航空公司來進駐而且開拓了這個遠程的這個航線所以請教第一個我們中印增出你們預計大概還要多少年第二個我們要如何的增搬跟開闢讓我們的真正的國際機場可以去展現請說說明"},{"start":138.422,"end":148.176,"text":"好 報告委員中進中出現在已經都在中進中出了以我自己的旅行的經驗我如果從台中出大概也是從台中進量數很少嘛量數的部分這你滿意嗎你是台中人你滿意嗎當然還不滿意當然不滿意 還好剛剛委員在講的航班跟航線"},{"start":153.624,"end":173.441,"text":"目前已經恢復到疫情之前的94%跟79%也就是說航班的部分恢復的數量比較多但是我們可以這麼說因為過去在兩岸的航線會比較多但現在兩岸航線相對減少所以如果扣除兩岸航線的話我們現在的航班跟航點應該是比疫情之前還要多我們稱為國際機場"},{"start":175.643,"end":191.053,"text":"如果布達你這樣回答我們是比較多那我們整個國際機場要怎麼去規劃我在說的是國際的運量對不對我們要怎麼去規劃所以我相信你絕對有前瞻性有有有你會滿足剛剛你所說的數字嗎"},{"start":192.114,"end":212.061,"text":"我們繼續努力啦你還好一個繼續努力我想我們在這裡是要好好的去討論怎麼樣可以讓我們的中部地區還有我們的國人在交通方面等都可以更加的變暢尤其在我們台中現在會展中心今年要完成世界國際的這個友人都會到"},{"start":214.141,"end":241.212,"text":"這個國際機場對我們來講是非常的重要好就這個事呢我要再請教現在的困境台中到金門的航班的問題那不只有說機位很搶手而且你平常就進不到更不用說假日那這個大家都很清楚很清楚有時候在那邊用屋的關係兩天啊幾天啊那擠壓的更多那這樣的一個情況之下請教部長針對於我們整個"},{"start":242.793,"end":262.304,"text":"台中到金門的航班嚴重不足的這個情況之下因為供需不平衡了嘛那我們要怎麼處理包委員我們現在整個國內包含跟離島之間的這個飛航的問題有時候是因為我們的運能問題啦我們的運能有點不足這是坦白要這麼說因為根本不足這很事實我們要怎麼解決"},{"start":263.545,"end":290.668,"text":"他的需求有這麼多為什麼人家不要呢運能不足對不對我們希望能夠放大機型不過這個要跟我們的國際航空公司大家來溝通跟協調所以你必須把你的基礎建設做好會會會這個會才能夠吸引人家大型的國際的這個不管是飛機這個座位會多嘛大型的飛機以及國際的這個航空公司願意進駐嘛"},{"start":292.289,"end":307.942,"text":"這根本還是要先解決所以台中到金門嚴重不足我相信部長你也了解那要你除了去協調他換大型的這個飛機但是到目前為止還是不夠還是工具差距很大"},{"start":308.963,"end":326.282,"text":"所以這個部分必須要再加強你去運作你去討論看我們的工序這麼樣不平衡的時候我們交通部這一邊可以怎麼樣去協助讓我們的民眾可以在交通可以有變長你多的時間可以一個方式你們去討論給本席"},{"start":327.858,"end":354.843,"text":"好 我們這三個月來討論好不好好 三個月給本席說你們要怎麼樣針對台中跟金門的航班嚴重不足的供需不平衡最後一個問題我請教台鐵那你宣布了要平均漲幅是26.8而且要在今年的6月23號開始正式來執行那大家有高度的質疑在目前通膨以及碰到"},{"start":356.103,"end":381.845,"text":"這樣子關稅的議題而且產業生存之壓力大家政府地方政府以及中央政府以及產業大家工會大家就要團結作戰在這個時間我們似乎可以看到非常嚴肅的不管是通膨或者是民生會非常痛苦那加上了這樣子突如其來的這樣子的因素那你認為"},{"start":383.786,"end":407.89,"text":"有沒有考量到要怎麼樣讓我們的社會大眾的負擔能力可以去緩和請教有 報告委員您在提醒的這個我們有考量到尤其您上面所寫的通勤族跟學生族他們所憂慮的事情我們現在交通部有個TPAS只要你有使用TPAS你是完全沒有影響你搭乘台鐵它就是假設是以北北基塔來講是一千二這是局部"},{"start":408.57,"end":420.603,"text":"也就是說他漲價的部分是由政府來吸收就不會讓一般的民眾受影響像學生族他也是用TPAS通勤族他也是用TPAS這個部分就不會有影響沒有用的人呢"},{"start":421.647,"end":443.962,"text":"沒有用的人幫幫委員你用的這些軌道佔多數啊台鐵還有一個常客計畫常客優惠你沒有針對本席的提問如果沒有這個關稅你如果沒有現在關稅嚴肅的議題那你這樣就分攤但是本席給你的功課就是說到目前的狀態連剛剛我們在經濟委員會部長也說他會隨時滾動式的減少影響到最低的狀況"},{"start":451.167,"end":465.61,"text":"你必須要去討論而且看到給你的樣態是什麼必要的時候要怎麼樣由政府來協助不管是台鐵公司還是我們的通勤組我覺得這非常的重要因為這個時間必須要共體實踐提出這個議題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1053,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時34分），謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們來討論在112年的時候，11月份核定臺中國際機場2040年整體的規劃，其中清楚的寫到2040年850萬人次旅運量、中部地區國際門戶的機場等規劃。首先本席要請教「中進中出」，我相信您擔任市議員的時候，擔任縣議員的時候，大家都極力的朝這個方向，所以請教「中進中出」還要幾年？這是第一個問題。再者，臺中機場的航廈規劃，你是不是有比較具體的方案？因為台中地區跟中部地區的產業，我們都非常的希望，不用再坐到桃園或者是高雄，或者還要到松山來，而且不只是交通問題，它更能夠促進整個中臺灣的觀光會展，加上我們的製造業和農產品都非常的重要，都有關聯性。但是我們目前臺中機場的的航線太少了，航班密度也不足，很難撐起國際的門戶。在這樣的情況之下，交通部民航局給我們的資料，說明臺中機場受限於現行的跑道長度與空域配置限制，所以目前起降有限，在這樣的情況之下，更難吸引到國際的航空公司進駐及開拓遠程航線。請教第一個，你們預計「中進中出」大概還要多少年？第二個，我們要如何增班跟開闢，進而展現我們真正的國際機場？請說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實對於「中進中出」，現在已經都在中進中出了，以我自己的旅行經驗，我如果從臺中出，大概也是從臺中入。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：量數很少嘛，這你滿意嗎？你是臺中人，你滿意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：當然還不滿意。原則上，目前航班跟航點已經恢復到疫情之前的94%跟79%，也就是說航班的部分，恢復的數量比較多，但是我們可以這麼說，因為過去在兩岸的航線會比較多，但現在兩岸航線相對減少，所以如果扣除兩岸航線的話，我們現在的航班跟航點應該是比疫情之前還要多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們是號稱為國際機場。"],["陳部長世凱：是，是國際機場沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果部長你這樣回答，我們是比較多，哇！那我們整個國際機場要怎麼規劃？"],["陳部長世凱：我在說的是國際的運量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我相信你絕對有前瞻性。"],["陳部長世凱：有，有，有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會滿足剛剛你所說的數字嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們繼續努力啦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你說繼續努力，我們在這裡是要好好的討論，怎麼樣可以讓我們的中部地區，還有我們的國人，在交通方面等都可以更加的便暢，尤其在我們臺中國際會展中心今年要完成，世界國際友人都會到，這個國際機場對我們來講非常的重要。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就這個事我要再請教現在的困境，臺中到金門的航班問題，不只有機位很搶手，而且平常就訂不到，更不用說假日，這個大家都很清楚，有時候在那邊因為霧的關係停飛兩天或幾天，那會擠壓得更多。請教部長，針對於整個臺中到金門航班嚴重不足的情況，因為供需不平衡了，我們要怎麼處理？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，現在整個國內包含跟離島之間的飛航問題，有時候是因為我們的運能問題，我們的運能有點不足，這是坦白要這麼說。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！運能根本不足，這是事實，我們要怎麼解決？需求有這麼多，為什麼人家不要呢？"],["陳部長世凱：運能不足，我們希望能夠放大機型，不過這個要跟國際航空公司大家來溝通跟協調。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以必須把你的基礎建設做好。"],["陳部長世凱：會，一定會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：才能夠吸引大型的飛機，因為座位會多嘛，以及讓國際的航空公司願意進駐，這根本還是要先解決，所以臺中到金門嚴重不足，我相信部長你也了解。"],["陳部長世凱：我們儘量來協調航空公司協助。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：除了去協調它換大型的飛機……"],["陳部長世凱：讓機位增多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是到目前為止還是不夠，還是供需差距很大，所以這個部分必須要再加強。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會密切關注，我們會來調度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去運作、討論，對於供需這麼不平衡的情況，看交通部可以怎麼樣協助，讓我們的民眾可以在交通上更便暢，你們去討論，多久可以給本席？"],["陳部長世凱：我們三個月來討論好不好？三個月時間再跟委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，三個月給本席，你們要怎麼樣針對臺中跟金門的航班嚴重不足及供需不平衡問題做處理。","最後請教一個問題，臺鐵宣布平均漲幅是26.8%，而且要在今年的6月23日開始正式執行，對此大家有高度的質疑，在目前通膨以及碰到關稅議題，加上產業生存之壓力，地方政府、中央政府以及產業工會大家都要團結作戰，在這個時間我們似乎可以看到，非常嚴肅的，不管是通膨或是民生都會非常痛苦，加上突如其來這樣子的因素，你們有沒有考量到要怎麼樣讓我們社會大眾的負擔能力，讓他們可以緩和？請教陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您提醒的這個部分，我們也有考量到，尤其您上面所寫的通勤族跟學生族，他們所憂慮的事情，交通部現在有一個TPASS，只要你有使用TPASS，就完全沒有影響，假設以北北基桃來講，你搭乘臺鐵就是1,200……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是局部！"],["陳部長世凱：也就是說，它漲價的部分是由政府來吸收，就不會讓一般的民眾受影響。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是局部！"],["陳部長世凱：像學生族、通勤族都是用TPASS，這個部分就不會有影響……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有用的人呢？沒有用的這些人還是占多數！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺鐵還有一個常客優惠計畫。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有針對本席的提問！"],["陳部長世凱：我是針對您上面寫的通勤族。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果現在沒有這一個嚴肅的關稅議題，你可以就這樣分攤，但是本席給你的功課就是目前的狀態，剛剛我們在經濟委員會的時候，部長也說他會隨時做滾動式的檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會讓民眾受到的影響降到最低的狀況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你必須去討論，而且看到給你的樣態是什麼，必要的時候，要怎麼樣由政府來協助，不管是臺鐵公司還是我們的通勤族，我覺得這非常的重要。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會儘量來協助民眾。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這個時間必須要共體時艱，所以本席提出這個議題。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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法務部政部長然後陸委會梁副主委 以及內政部陳副署長我想先念一段陸配子女的話給各位聽一下 請問各位感受如何"},{"start":26.721,"end":54.737,"text":"我母親從小教導我要愛台灣守護這片土地她來台三十多年奉公守法照顧家庭繳稅納保未曾有任何違法行為一生為家庭付出為社會安分守序如今卻因為無法提出一份三十多年前未被要求現今更無從補辦的文件"},{"start":55.902,"end":82.812,"text":"竟然可能面臨撤銷中華民國身份失去他所屬家園的命運讓我們一家人痛心無助我也忍不住想問這真的是我們從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎我念這段話我想要請教在座的首長們"},{"start":84.824,"end":108.009,"text":"真的不是用黨派的角度去看這件事情請大家用為人子女的角度來看這件事情我想請教一下我們的司法院的陳廷長你也是一輩子的法律人你覺得這是你從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎"},{"start":112.59,"end":138.019,"text":"這個一直都是我們追求的理念追求理念如果說您的父母跟他一樣被要求提出一個三十多年前未被要求現今也無從補辦的文件如果交不出來他就要被趕出去 驅逐出境離開他的家園 離開他的家人請問你能接受嗎"},{"start":140.211,"end":168.516,"text":"我想我的感受可能會跟委員剛才念的那一個子女的心聲是一樣非常好謝謝你陳廷長我想請教鄭明謙部長請問將心比心如果說今天是我們的父母要他拿一個30年前這20年我知道政府也沒跟他要他補辦突然我們賴清德總統上來就要他補辦"},{"start":170.379,"end":193.897,"text":"補教啊然後他也無從再找到這些東西了可是你找不到就離開台灣為人子女你覺得你的心情會是什麼我想我是法務部長救法援華那這個也不是我本部全管的一個部份部長其實你的答案我都知道你從來就這樣學學成廳長"},{"start":197.443,"end":226.844,"text":"作為法律人要有法律人的柔軟的心來我想請教請教我們的那個移民署的陳副署長請問如果你的父母被要求交這樣的一份文件他真的找不到啊三十年其實真的我覺得人之常情啊找不到是人之常情啊你覺得你身為子女看著父母親要被趕出去"},{"start":228.356,"end":253.051,"text":"你心中做何感想我們會很難過可是在我目前我剛剛稍早有一些委員的指導副署長我跟你講我能夠理解你在現在政府部門擔任事務官的為難所以我不會勉強你但你剛剛講的那句你會很難過我很感動也請部長好好聽一聽來請我們的副主委請問"},{"start":258.069,"end":282.199,"text":"你的感受是什麼從我們陸委會的立場我會先確定說他所謂無法補辦是什麼意思因為我們碰過很多人說他無法補辦但是後來都證明他其實是有辦法的你們發了多少信出去要求他如果他是真的無法補辦經過我們的甄別真的無法補辦的話那我們絕對會保障他的權利"},{"start":287.458,"end":311.883,"text":"我問你 你們發了多少信出去要他們補辦就是大概一萬吧已經是接近無差別的一個要求沒有無差別所以一萬份都是被檢舉嗎沒有無差別一萬份都被檢舉嗎病居的14萬人這一萬份是不是93年以前的大部分不止"},{"start":314.093,"end":338.505,"text":"一萬份欸所以我剛剛講的還不是一個子女的心情是一萬個家庭子女的心情沒關係啦 副主委我也知道 你是政務官啦所以你有為政策辯護的一個職責啦沒關係 我想請教你下一個問題我請教下一個問題三十年三十年"},{"start":340.609,"end":360.275,"text":"不是三天 不是三個星期 不是三個月 不是三年 是三十年要你交三十年前的文件 要你自證去交三十年前的文件 交不出來就把你驅逐出境"},{"start":361.249,"end":388.809,"text":"驅逐離開台灣是這樣嗎不會的好謝謝你非常謝謝副主委現在我請我們烏魯佩今天聽聽就我們副主委今天被問出來我們不是叫你交三十年前的文件請副署長來而是三十年前你沒有去申請這份文件副署長謝謝你剛剛副主委講了交不出來也沒關係因為三十年前坦白講跟副署長講"},{"start":390.407,"end":416.341,"text":"真的 你一般人喔 不要用政治色彩我請所有的 我們的台灣民眾 以人人的角度出發你要人拿30年前從大陸拿文件出來有難度吧我不要講說不可能 我講有難度總是很公道吧所以在這裡跟委員報告因為我們這幾天也接獲一些民眾來 我問一下部長部長有難度吧"},{"start":424.16,"end":436.133,"text":"我沒有說不可能,我是有難度吧我是當然非常期盼他們能夠找出來,能夠在台灣安居樂業部長你又是,什麼叫期盼他能找出來"},{"start":437.179,"end":451.924,"text":"我告訴你你怎麼會把所有的責任都加給民眾這個不是我全管的當然我也是希望說我知道啦不是你全管的所以因為有主管機關在我現在請教你下一個問題我要請教我們的那個梁副主委是發了一萬多封通知要他們要交件是你剛剛講的"},{"start":467.588,"end":496.869,"text":"我想請問為什麼蔡英文總統沒有發這1萬多件通知出去老實講因為這個2004年到現在藍綠政黨轉換我也不清楚說到底為什麼以前沒有直行我跟你講為什麼陳水扁有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去馬英九有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去"},{"start":498.973,"end":523.058,"text":"你都跟我講你不知道不懂不了解因為任何做一個人以子女的心情來講蔡英文總統就知道你接近無差別一萬多分你不要跟我講是有差別接近無差別大規模有交的做這件事情的時候凡是有交文件的我們就不會發通知有請副署長有請副署長"},{"start":529.89,"end":555.822,"text":"這個法規是93年定的嘛93年3月1號兩岸關係條例修正的9條1好 20年了今年終於發了一萬多封叫人家要補件然後如果交不出來有可能面臨驅逐出境剝奪身份嘛我想請問蔡英文總統8年有沒有發這一萬份的通知書有沒有沒有謝謝"},{"start":557.873,"end":582.774,"text":"梁副主委好好看看人家怎麼回答問題我要繼續請副署長你知道陳碎邊有沒有其實跟委員報告了所有在訂這一些馬英九有沒有"},{"start":583.82,"end":589.304,"text":"馬英九總統有沒有?我沒有針對說93年3月1號為什麼蔡英文沒有?為什麼陳水扁沒有?為什麼馬英九沒有?無能嗎?這三個總統無能?"},{"start":608.17,"end":630.364,"text":"對陸委會來講因為兩岸條例是我們主管的法律所以當我們發現有許多人從來沒有繳交過相關的文件的時候這個部分就必須要處理所以蔡前總統在他八年任內他竟然沒有發現何其怠惰"},{"start":631.224,"end":653.862,"text":"是這個意思嗎就你們偉大的現在在金澤總上來你就發現了我不能這麼說非常謝謝你當然不能這麼說如果根據現在的法律你當然不能這麼說任何人只要檢舉某一位路程我們就可以立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做而是選擇發通知要他們補件其實是出於人道的考慮梁副主委我當然知道你現在的立場我怎麼會不知道"},{"start":661.82,"end":689.242,"text":"我告訴你絕對不是蔡英文總統無能蔡英文總統任內雖然也有很多我們意識形態不一樣的地方他也不是每一個政見做法我都認同但是蔡英文總統心中還有一份柔軟他們又拿著刀斧對著這些陸配"},{"start":691.957,"end":693.06,"text":"報告委員 我們現在的做法就是因為柔軟"},{"start":702.159,"end":724.43,"text":"所以啊 我告訴你啊 如果你們把這個定義為柔軟的話那豈不是定義蔡英文為無能因為現在任何人如果去檢舉某一個人他有大陸身份 我們就得立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做 而是給人家補正的機會就是因為忽異柔軟所以你接到一萬多封的檢舉信了就是因為柔軟來來來 你還柔軟咧副署長 請問有沒有接到一萬多封的檢舉信"},{"start":730.996,"end":759.262,"text":"沒有接到幾封檢舉信我這樣問好了 問精確一點這一萬多封發出去有幾個是接到檢舉信發的這個我要回去查看看你不用回去查啦 你給我個比例嘛有沒有百分之一啊 百分之十啊 百分之百因為我在實務上也有發現說有人這一萬份裡面有一份是檢舉 有十份是檢舉一百份是檢舉 還是一千份是檢舉這一點總的概率你總知道吧"},{"start":761.428,"end":790.971,"text":"所以要再查一下再查 好沒關係啦待會發新聞稿告訴大家啦好不好來 請副主委你很柔軟 真的好柔軟你柔軟到讓我都覺得已經是欲哭無淚了你剛剛講齁 有人檢舉你都還不一定查就這一萬份 沒檢舉你都查你說有人檢舉齁 有時候你還要體諒大家你柔軟 你還不一定查"},{"start":793.069,"end":814.457,"text":"結果你柔軟到沒檢舉的你也差所以我才跟你講你跟無差別到底差別在哪裡一萬多個家庭 一萬多個子女這真的跟意識形態無關啦跟意識形態無關啦最後啊因為時間也到了我還是回到一句話啦身在宮門好修行在台灣三十年了"},{"start":822.779,"end":841.407,"text":"他不是台灣人 到底誰是台灣人啊在台灣三十年了你說的所謂無法補正或是什麼這些東西我們都必須要看個案然後如果他是真的無法補正因為身體的理由或是什麼樣的理由完全無法補正的話我們不會把人家趕出去絕對不會請部長"},{"start":850.868,"end":879.71,"text":"就你法務部齁我們剛剛入委會柔軟的入委會說要看個案看個案就是主管機關裁定嘛不是嗎他這個可不可以留下來這個如果說有薄調的話這訴願在訴願的行政訴訟這個要在司法院行政機關做嘛這個是行政機關跟後來要打行政訴訟我講的行政處分是誰在做啊如果你的行政處分是誰在做這個不是法務部這個完全不是法務部我說如果啦"},{"start":880.63,"end":909.395,"text":"這個要問司法院 因為這個屬於行政的問題你是一路走來始終如一啦這個因為要打行政訴訟沒關係 我做一個很快的結論 很簡單很簡單看看蔡英文總統啦看看陳水扁總統啦看看馬英九總統啦他們絕對不是無能這三個都是法律人總統他們非常知道什麼叫信賴保護"},{"start":912.469,"end":940.823,"text":"我作為一個人在台灣生活三十年作為一個法律人或也作為一個任何人今天一個陸配來台三十年這段期間移民署也好 陸委會也好你在九十三年法律訂的時候要他六個月內交"},{"start":942.383,"end":970.451,"text":"他也交文件不交文件不管你20年的時間你身份還是給他他身份繼續保留這不就是信賴保護嗎結果你現在打翻這個信賴保護而且說實在剛剛已經承認了沒有檢舉也做啊至少裡面很大部分是沒有檢舉啦至少不是全部都是檢舉啦因為你沒給我數字我也不敢講是什麼"},{"start":975.754,"end":996.02,"text":"蔡英文總統能夠知道這份柔軟馬英九總統能夠有這份柔軟陳水扁總統也有這份柔軟我希望身為人 身為人子也能有這份柔軟 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1060,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時51分）主席，有請司法院程廳長、法務部鄭部長、陸委會梁副主委以及內政部陳副署長。"],["主席：麻煩廳長、部長、副主委、副署長。"],["羅委員智強：我想先念一段陸配子女的話給各位聽一下，請問各位感受如何？「我母親從小教導我要愛臺灣，守護這片土地。她來臺三十多年，奉公守法，照顧家庭，繳稅納保，未曾有任何違法行為，一生為家庭付出，為社會安分守序。如今卻因為無法提出一份三十多年前未被要求，現今更無從補辦的文件，竟然可能面臨撤銷中華民國身分，失去他所屬家園的命運，讓我們一家人痛心無助。我也忍不住想問，這真的是我們從小認識──以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎？」我想要請教在座的首長們，真的不是用黨派的角度去看這件事情，請大家用為人子女的角度來看這件事情！","我想請教司法院程廳長，你也是一輩子的法律人，你覺得這是你從小認識、以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎？"],["程廳長怡怡：我想這個一直都是我們追求的理念。"],["羅委員智強：如果您的父母跟他一樣，被要求提出一個三十多年前未被要求、現今也無從補辦的文件，如果交不出來的話，他就要被驅逐出境，離開他的家園，離開他的家人。請問你能接受嗎？"],["程廳長怡怡：我想我的感受，可能會跟委員剛才念的那個子女的心聲是一樣的。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，謝謝程廳長。我想請教鄭銘謙部長，我們將心比心，如果今天是我們的父母，政府要他補交三十年前的文件，這麼多年政府也沒有要他補辦，我們賴清德總統上來，就要他補交，而他也無從再找到這些東西，現在你找不到就只好離開臺灣！為人子女的話，你覺得你的心情會是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我是法務部長，就法言法，這個也不是本部權管的部分……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！部長，其實你的答案我都知道，你從來就是這樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["羅委員智強：學學程廳長，作為法律人要有法律人柔軟的心。我想請教移民署陳副署長。"],["陳副署長建成：是，委員好。"],["羅委員智強：請問，如果你的父母被要求交這樣一份文件，他真的找不到，30年，其實我真的覺得是人之常情，找不到是人之常情！你覺得你身為子女，看著父母親要被趕出去，你心中作何感想？"],["陳副署長建成：我們會很難過，可是剛剛稍早有一些委員的指導……"],["羅委員智強：副署長，我跟你講，我能夠理解你現在在政府部門擔任事務官的為難，所以我不會勉強你，但你剛剛講的那一句你會很難過，我很感動！也請部長好好聽一聽。","請副主委。請問你的感受是什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：從我們陸委會的立場，我會先確定他所謂的無法補辦是什麼意思，因為我們碰過很多人說他無法補辦，但是後來都證明他其實是有辦法的，如果是真的……"],["羅委員智強：你們發了多少信出去要求補辦？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果他是真的無法補辦，經過我們的偵別，真的無法補辦的話，那我們絕對會保障他的權益。"],["羅委員智強：副主委，我問你，你們發了多少信出去要他們補辦？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：大概一萬吧！"],["羅委員智強：一萬？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["羅委員智強：已經是接近無差別的要求了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有無差別。"],["羅委員智強：所以一萬份都是被檢舉嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有無差別。"],["羅委員智強：一萬份都被檢舉嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：定居的差不多有14萬人，但14萬人之中……"],["羅委員智強：這一萬份是不是都是93年以前的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是。"],["羅委員智強：大部分？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不止、不止。"],["羅委員智強：不止？一萬份耶！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不止。"],["羅委員智強：所以我剛剛講的還不是一個子女的心情，是一萬個家庭子女的心情。沒關係啦！副主委，我也知道你是政務官，所以你有為政策辯護的職責，沒關係！我想請教你下一個問題，30年！30年！不是3天、不是3個星期、不是3個月、不是3年，是30年！要你交30年前的文件，要你自證，去交30年前的文件，交不出來就把你驅逐出境，驅逐離開臺灣，是這樣嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不會的！"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你，非常謝謝！副主委，現在我請我們的陸配今天聽聽，我們副主委今天被問出來了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們不是叫他們交30年前的文件，而是30年前沒有去申請這份文件……"],["羅委員智強：我請副署長來，副署長，謝謝你，剛剛副主委講交不出來也沒關係，因為30年……坦白講，我跟副署長講，真的，以一般人，不要用政治色彩，我請所有我們臺灣民眾以人的角度出發，你要人家從大陸拿30年前的文件出來，有難度吧？我不要講不可能，我講有難度總是很公道吧？"],["陳副署長建成：所以在這裡跟委員報告，因為我們這幾天也接獲一些民眾……"],["羅委員智強：來，我問一下部長，部長，有難度吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["羅委員智強：我沒有說不可能，我說這有難度吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然我是非常期盼他們能夠找出來，能夠在臺灣安居樂業。"],["羅委員智強：部長，你又是……什麼叫期盼他們能找出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：你怎麼會把所有的責任都加給民眾？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是我權管的，我當然也是希望……"],["羅委員智強：我知道啦！不是你權管的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為有主管機關在，我沒辦法代他回答。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教下一個問題，我要請教梁副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["羅委員智強：發了一萬多封通知，要他們交件，是你剛剛講的，我想請問，為什麼蔡英文總統沒有發這一萬多件通知出去？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：老實講，因為2004年到現在，藍綠政黨轉換，我也不清楚到底為什麼以前沒有執行。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講為什麼，陳水扁有沒有發這一萬多封通知信出去？馬英九有沒有發這一萬多封通知信出去？你都跟我講你不知道、不懂、不了解，因為任何一個人，以子女的心情來講，蔡英文總統就知道，你接近無差別，一萬多份你不要跟我講是有差別，接近無差別，大規模……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：有交的……"],["羅委員智強：做那件事情的時候……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：凡是有交文件的我們就不會發通知啊！"],["羅委員智強：有請副署長，這個法規是93年訂的對不對？"],["陳副署長建成：93年3月1號兩岸關係條例修正的第九條之一。"],["羅委員智強：20年了，今年終於發了一萬多封叫人家補件，如果交不出來，有可能面臨驅逐出境，剝奪身分。我想請問，蔡英文總統8年有沒有發這1萬份的通知書，有沒有？"],["陳副署長建成：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。梁副主委……"],["陳副署長建成：不過我在這裡要補充一下……"],["羅委員智強：你先等一下，梁副主委，好好看看人家怎麼回答問題。我要繼續請副署長，你知道，陳水扁有沒有？"],["陳副署長建成：其實跟委員報告，所有在訂這一些……"],["羅委員智強：馬英九有沒有？"],["陳副署長建成：我們其實在……"],["羅委員智強：馬英九總統有沒有？"],["陳副署長建成：我沒有針對93年3月1號……"],["羅委員智強：好嘛！謝謝，沒有。副主委，為什麼蔡英文沒有？為什麼陳水扁沒有？為什麼馬英九沒有？無能嗎？這三個總統無能？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對陸委會來講，因為兩岸條例是我們主管的法律……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，這三個總統因為心裡有一份柔軟的心……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以當我們發現有許多人，從來沒有繳交過相關文件的時候，這個部分就必須處理。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，副主委，不要在這邊指責蔡前總統，所以蔡前總統在8年任內竟然沒有發現，何其怠惰，是這個意思嗎？就你們偉大的現在賴清德總統上來，你就發現了？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我不能這麼說……"],["羅委員智強：你當然不能這麼說……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果根據現在的法律……"],["羅委員智強：你當然不能這麼說！我請部長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：任何人只要檢舉某一位陸配，我們就可以立刻處理。我們之所以不這樣做，而是選擇發通知要他們補件，其實是出於人道的考慮。"],["羅委員智強：梁副主委，我當然知道你現在的立場，我怎麼會不知道。我告訴你，絕對不是因為蔡英文總統無能，蔡英文總統任內，雖然也有很多我們意識形態不一樣的地方，她也不是每一個政見做法我都認同，但是蔡英文總統心中還有一份柔軟，她沒有拿著刀斧對著這些陸配，她沒有拿著一萬把刀對著這些陸配。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，我們現在的做法就是因為柔軟，真的！"],["羅委員智強：所以我告訴你啊！如果你們把這個定義為柔軟的話，那你豈不是定義蔡英文為無能！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為現在任何人如果去檢舉某一個人有大陸身分，我們就得立刻處理。我們之所以不這樣做，而是給人家補正的機會，就是因為出於柔軟。"],["羅委員智強：所以你接到一萬多封的檢舉信了？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就是因為柔軟。"],["羅委員智強：你還柔軟咧，副署長，請問有沒有接到一萬多封的檢舉信？"],["陳副署長建成：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有！接到幾封檢舉信？我這樣問好了，問精確一點，這一萬多封發出去，有幾個是接到檢舉信發的？"],["陳副署長建成：這個我要回去查看看。"],["羅委員智強：你不用回去查啦！你給我個比例，有沒有1%、10%，還是100%？"],["陳副署長建成：因為在實務上也發現有人曾經……"],["羅委員智強：這1萬份裡面有1份是檢舉，有10份是檢舉，100份是檢舉，還是1,000份是檢舉，這一點總的概略你總知道吧？"],["陳副署長建成：所以要再查一下。"],["羅委員智強：再查？好，沒關係啦！待會發新聞稿告訴大家，好不好？","請副主委，你很柔軟，真的好柔軟，你柔軟到讓我覺得已經是欲哭無淚了。你剛剛講，有人檢舉你都還不一定查，結果這一萬份，沒檢舉你都查。你說有人檢舉，有時候你還要體諒大家，你柔軟，你還不一定查，結果你柔軟到沒檢舉的你也查，所以我才跟你講，你跟無差別到底差別在哪裡？一萬多個家庭，一萬多個子女，這真的跟意識形態無關，跟意識形態無關啦！最後，因為時間也到了，我還是回到一句話，身在公門好修行。在臺灣30年了，他不是臺灣人，到底誰是臺灣人？在臺灣30年了！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，我覺得你說的所謂無法補正或是什麼，這些東西我們都必須要看個案。然後如果他是真的無法補正，因為身體的理由或是什麼樣的理由，完全無法補正的話……"],["羅委員智強：看個案？沒關係！請部長，這個部長總能回答了，請部長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們不會把人家趕出去，絕對不會。"],["羅委員智強：部長，剛剛柔軟的陸委會說要看個案，看個案就是主管機關裁定，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他可不可以留下來，如果有駁掉的話，這是訴願再訴願的行政訴訟，這個要司法院……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！行政處分是行政機關做，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是行政機關跟後來要打刑事訴訟，這是司法院……"],["羅委員智強：我講的行政處分是誰在做？如果你的行政處分是誰在做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是法務部，這個完全不是法務部。"],["羅委員智強：我說如果啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要問司法院，因為這個屬於行政的問題……"],["羅委員智強：你是一路走來始終如一啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個因為要打行政訴訟……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我做一個很快的結論，很簡單，看看蔡英文總統、看看陳水扁總統、看看馬英九總統，他們絕對不是無能，這三個都是法律人總統，他們非常知道什麼叫信賴保護。我作為一個人，在臺灣生活30年，作為一個法律人，我也作為一個任何人，今天一個陸配來臺30年，這段期間移民署也好，陸委會也好，在93年法律訂的時候要他6個月內交，他交文件、不交文件，不管，20年的時間身分還是給他，他的身分繼續保留，這不就是信賴保護嗎？結果你現在打翻這個信賴保護，而且說實在，剛剛已經承認了，沒有檢舉也做啊！裡面很大部分是沒有檢舉，至少不是全部都是檢舉，因為你沒給我數字，我也不敢講是什麼。蔡英文總統能夠知道這份柔軟，馬英九總統能夠有這份柔軟，陳水扁總統也有這份柔軟，我希望，身為人，身為人子，也都能有這份柔軟，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"160004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce9471f4d8c05445e7a0ce932bdb5123485ac7c33fa4103456a2a4a6212d4cdfaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:00:42 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fund這些訂單包括他可能因為這樣子這個業者希望他能夠到5月以後再去出貨明確的台灣的這個稅率這個稅率確定了以後才會讓他出貨我想這些都是"},{"start":216.92,"end":238.85,"text":"造成產業上面在財務的調度上面可能會出了一點問題那我們第一個就是紓困特別是小跟微的企業那大型的企業經過我們盤過的幾個大型的企業包括電子相關的這些產業他們可能做的是EMS可能做的是OEM對他們來講我們都確認過"},{"start":240.891,"end":259.24,"text":"他們的影響不大所以我們現在800億的部分700億的部分是完全針對中小微企業第一個先以紓困為主各種方法所以我們希望能夠在所有的方法裡面能夠重塑重減"},{"start":261.254,"end":281.736,"text":"來幫助他們部長這很重要因為我看到上面的這些資源的配置來看的話提升競爭力研發轉型這種比較偏向這種國發會的長期的機會是200億所以說我們在有限的資源下面怎麼樣的調度剛才部長說紓困優先同時經濟部也是作為整個這個方案的主導的部門"},{"start":282.316,"end":310.193,"text":"所以我是希望說調整一下看怎麼樣可以針對你剛剛講到的中小型企業最直接的幫助你剛剛提到的紓困方案它的資源配置不應該是最少反而是應該是最多的但是我們剛剛看到700億光是有300億就是在長期的促進產業的發展我覺得這個要做一些調整是 報告委員當我們在這個一般來講我們看的是這個廠商它其實是非常順利在運作"},{"start":311.354,"end":339.033,"text":"那基本上我們會讓他調適一些訂單因為畢竟美國不是佔他全部大概只有20幾個person好 那就是你剛剛提到的開拓市場的部分那想再請教一下開拓市場的部分我們現在能夠某方面美國是不可能被取代的某方面能夠替代的這個市場還是以歐洲國家為主是不是我們大概有三個方向就是說第一個是歐洲的市場大概這些部分都是工具區跟這個構建的部分"},{"start":339.713,"end":358.509,"text":"歐洲市場再來就是印度再來就是這個土耳其好這三個市場裡面特別是歐洲市場它的消費能力是比較接近美國的更加要放重心在上面那最後這一個部分我是請經濟部要回去研擬一下因為這一次的關稅它是針對"},{"start":359.73,"end":386.508,"text":"不是只有非盟友他是針對盟友是美國的盟友也包含在內所以包含日韓 台灣 歐盟全部都在他的這個裡面都被課徵高關稅所以未來會不會影響非紅的這個供應鏈這個要怎麼樣應對我希望這是我不知道經濟部門有沒有先想好那我也認為說 張偉未來也可以派類似這樣子的會議我現在講的非紅供應鏈已經受到威脅了"},{"start":387.268,"end":389.191,"text":"所以這個部分先做好準備所以在這個變數進來這個關稅的變數進來以後當然我們會調整好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1326,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時1分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，我剛剛看到幾位委員都非常重視因應關稅的方案，同樣的我也想要請教，現在這個880億的支持方案裡面，我們就工業六大面向700億來討論。我想先請教一下，是不是4月5號出船然後5月27號前抵美報關的話就是用之前的稅率？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概有三種情境，主要的情境是這樣，就是4月5號以前從臺灣出貨的、on board的，按照原稅率；如果4月5號到4月9號，也就是4月5號中午以後到4月9號中午大概是加10個percent的稅率；如果是剛剛1個小時前，今天12點之後出貨的話要32%。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們為什麼要重視這些數字？因為現在它的影響是即時的，所以我們需要即時有效的政策去對應。我看這700億的部分，提升產業競爭力的研發轉型高達200億，另外一部分是爭取海外訂單，包含子項目有補助海外新設展示中心，大概有一百多億。我就這些部分想要請教部長，這些是長期的，還是短期的應對方案？"],["郭部長智輝：海外的部分有短期，也有長期，因為我們現在必須要替受到衝擊的這些廠商找到新的訂單。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，部長，我同意，但是我要強調的是我們現在要面臨的是即時的、有效的應對，所以我看到工業的六大面向14項措施裡面，在金融支持方面，金融支持包含融資利率的減碼，還有輸出保費的優惠、中小微型企業的貸款加碼，這個是應該要提高的，要降低行政成本的當然也是要提高的，但是提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場，我們現在講的是這個月、今年，我們馬上面臨到的關稅變局，數十年來從來沒有這樣的大變局。我想請教一下部長，你認為這個700億預算的優先次序是不是要做一些調整？我特別還要提到你們的安定就業這個部分，因為它排在最後一項──第六項，但是其實它的影響是最重大的，所以想請部長回應一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們第一個優先的動作就是紓困，紓解這些中小微企業面臨到財務上面的危機，包括它被砍單，包括這些訂單被postpone，包括它可能因為這樣子，業者希望能夠到5月以後再出貨，直到臺灣的稅率確定了以後才會讓它出貨。這些都造成產業在財務的調度上面可能會出一點問題，那我們第一個就是紓困，特別是中小、小跟微型企業；至於大型的企業，經過我們盤過的幾個大型企業，包括電子相關產業，他們可能做的是EMS、可能做的是OEM，我們都確認過，他們的影響不大，所以我們現在這個800億，700億的部分是完全針對中小微企業，第一個先以紓困為主，用各種方法，我們希望在所有方法裡面能夠從速、從簡來幫助他們。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，部長，這很重要，我就上面這些資源配置來看的話，提升競爭力研發轉型這種比較偏向國發會的長期計畫是200億，我們在有限的資源下面怎麼樣調度？剛才部長說紓困優先，同時經濟部也是這整個方案的主導部門，所以我希望調整一下，看怎麼樣可以針對你剛剛講到的中小型企業最直接的幫助。你剛剛提到的紓困方案，它的資源配置不應該是最少，反而應該是最多的，但是我們剛剛看到700億就有300億是在長期促進產業發展，我覺得這個要做一些調整。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，一般來講，我們看的是廠商其實非常順利在運作，基本上我們會讓它調適一些訂單，畢竟美國不是占它的全部，大概只有二十幾個percent。所以這個部分就是……"],["陳委員冠廷：好，你剛剛提到的開拓市場，我想再請教一下，在開拓市場的部分，美國是不可能被取代的，我們現在某方面能夠替代的市場還是以歐洲國家為主，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概有三個方向，第一個是歐洲的市場，大概這些就是工具機跟扣件，這是歐洲的市場，再來就是印度，再來就是土耳其。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。這三個市場裡面，特別是歐洲市場，它的消費能力是比較接近美國的，更加要放重心在上面。","最後這個部分請經濟部要回去研擬一下，因為這一次的關稅不是只有針對非盟友，他也針對盟友，連美國的盟友也包含在內，所以包含日、韓、臺灣、歐盟全部都在這裡面被課徵高關稅，未來會不會影響非紅的供應鏈？這個要怎麼樣應對？我不知道經濟部門有沒有先想好。我認為召委未來也可以安排類似這樣子的會議，我現在講的是非紅供應鏈已經受到威脅了，這部分先做好準備。"],["郭部長智輝：是，非紅供應鏈是我們主要的命題啦！"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["郭部長智輝：在關稅這個變數進來以後，當然我們會調整。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請黃建賓委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我知道我知道就是你們七千萬裡面有很多項目嘛其實全部這個成績簿給的也不只這些啦它有很多項目嘛那我們都挑一些重點上來就是社會關心的項目嘛對不對那包括影片製作等等的你們都如實羅列了就大眾最關心的演唱會你們好像就不敢寫上去不是不敢"},{"start":116.73,"end":144.864,"text":"我們就沒什麼好不管這是大家都關心的事情沒關係今天整天早上大家都在討論這件事情所以這只是做一些摘要的列舉我們也沒有迴避在這個音樂會上面辦理的事情這個音樂會辦理的檢討我們也做了所以這這個只是好沒關係那這只是一個列舉同仁本來就沒寫進來嗎部長沒有寫進來我也沒有要怪給同仁但是我的只是很簡單因為這些所有的項目就是以審計部給我們因為我們有時候在看一份報告的時候我們可能就從裡面"},{"start":145.564,"end":164.463,"text":"我們願意成立的一個項目來看我們勞動部願意檢討到底有沒有真心願意來檢討我們可能就從裡面書面資料先來看一個部分嘛那另外我想跟部長確認一下就是可能我不知道你前面有沒有提到我之前有新聞有提到說就是這個報告出來了嘛這個審計部的報告出來了那我們部長是說"},{"start":165.884,"end":192.637,"text":"會用公務預算去補嗎所以我想跟部長確認一下會不會你會不會有一毛錢是要跟許明春或者是謝宜龍來求償的會不會有一毛錢我跟廖遠說明現在大家都很關心決策者的責任是那勞動部會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究檢調他們可能就是刑事嘛這當然尊重啊但是我們內部的行政作業"},{"start":193.297,"end":206.591,"text":"既然我們的審計部已經要求我們追回了追回就有兩種方式嘛對不對一種就是部長講的嘛就是隔年度的公務預算去補回來另外一種追回的方式是跟失職的公職人員去求償這兩種方式應該沒錯吧"},{"start":209.153,"end":234.704,"text":"跟六人說明保安部是一個行政單位我們如果要來跟個人追討的話也需要有法律上的依據是這法律上的依據比方說有司法的判決或者比方說如果有判定是要剔除這些是法律上面的依據但我們就有責任要去追回但是我今天要跟任何一個人追回我都要有法律上面的依據"},{"start":236.414,"end":249.595,"text":"目前的法律依據就是審計不有所以如果後續檢調的辦理行事歸行事嘛我們行政歸行政啊你求償是民事吧如果今天檢調判定是有不要欽讚"},{"start":250.543,"end":265.452,"text":"那我們該追回啊那使用不當嘛你認為這個使用不當是機關的責任還是決策者的責任嘛就你這邊他不一定有刑事責任他不一定有刑事責任我認同啊跟廖仁說明我們現在就是必須依照我們現在就是依照審計的審計結果跟相關的規範來判來後續的執行"},{"start":272.475,"end":295.74,"text":"所以你們有兩步路可以走嘛兩個方向可以走嘛所以你們現在就是選擇走用公屋預算來補你們目前沒有要對這個許民村以及謝宜龍追場嗎追回目前沒有嗎待會你這樣講有點簡化現在檢調跟司法都在偵辦中我們會來配合檢調跟司法的偵辦如果在檢調司法的結果出來這個結果出來"},{"start":299.199,"end":310.146,"text":"該怎麼追我們就怎麼追部長 如果說什麼東西都推給檢調的話那審計部也不用出報告了啦您的部長上任也不用宣誓了啦這不是推給司法我們要跟個人的追討是要有法律上面的依據"},{"start":321.685,"end":339.677,"text":"審計部 請你們追回你們就有法令依據就使用不當 你有兩條路走你選擇用公務預算來補而不是向個人來求助廖仁 審計部的報告很清楚它是寫修正簡列追回好啦 部長修正簡列追回不要 審計部的報告是寫修正簡列追回"},{"start":342.455,"end":356.088,"text":"就是我們一上任講得很好聽啦好不好 我不希望我們常就是上任的時候宣誓的講得很好聽啦結果啊 我們的有一句台語啦 一句閩南語啦 叫做講到一本機啦做不一通期啦"},{"start":359.151,"end":378.205,"text":"常常會有這樣的說法啦我希望就是我們說什麼當初給社會的期待是什麼以上那個給大家的期待是什麼我們後續就依據大家的期待來做我們從一開始就是說我們尊重審計的結果我們會依照審計的結果來去做相關的辦理這個立場從一開始從12月到現在都沒有改變好 沒關係 部長 謝謝再給我一點時間我請我們的副審計長"},{"start":385.675,"end":413.826,"text":"副審計長 幾秒鐘的影片看一下這個去年時運審計長的這個影片對 追回的對象我那時候很明確的就問審計長我們那時候應該就確定會追回了我一直跟他追的是追回的對象我們會不會很明確的寫但是很遺憾我們這次審計報告沒有寫追回的對象是誰那剛剛依照我們的洪部長回應目前他現在的"},{"start":415.327,"end":421.153,"text":"這個手上他可能自己的判斷他在等這個檢調單位的這個調查嘛所以說我們目前的方向是由公務機關來這個編列預算來彌補這個追回的一個問題嘛那剛剛就我們這個沈議長講的要去釐清這個對象如果說我們的勞動部是用公務預算來補的話那你們願意替他背書嗎"},{"start":439.381,"end":459.395,"text":"這個跟委員報告這個沒有背書的問題啦就是目前我們是修正就業安利基金的決算省計長說看責任在誰嘛對不對責任在誰那現在部長他認為應該是用公務預算來補就好了嗎那你們就認同他這樣的做法嗎我當初很明確的就是要問"},{"start":460.805,"end":475.704,"text":"許明春跟這個謝宜龍有沒有這個責任嘛責任會不會是在他們要不要跟他們追回當初那一場你應該也有在聽啦那沈記長很明確就是說看責任在誰看責任在誰就跟誰追回我的理解是這樣子吧"},{"start":477.688,"end":498.161,"text":"沒錯 至少現在勞動部不認為責任在謝宜榮跟許銘春嘛我不方便幫勞動部答覆但是審計部能做的第一個司法部分我們移送檢調那這個要等他最終的判決司法規司法規不討論這個個人報告一定"},{"start":501.583,"end":518.217,"text":"司法他如果是因為這樣個人的行為除了觸犯刑法以外他還造成公帑損失這個我們要追究財務責任啊造成刑法跟造成公帑損失兩個不一定有這一個問題嘛這個因為我們審計部一個是刑事責任一個是刑事責任我們審計部"},{"start":520.234,"end":527.138,"text":"並沒有司法調查權所以我們沒辦法去釐清相關的對待關係沒關係 我客觀的講就是針對勞工部目前打算用這個公務預算來補這個要追回的錢我們審計部是沒有意見的沒有 這個是要尊重他們行政機關就尊重沒有意見嘛沒有 不是沒意見這個預算的籌編是行政院的責任是部會責任 不是審計部啦審計部是監督預算執行我們能做的不是你的責任就沒意見嘛"},{"start":550.152,"end":569.311,"text":"不是 不是 我們有我們自己的獨立的審計立場我們發現 包括剛剛廖委員很關心可能有特定的首長他要負責任這個部分我們都移送到監察院這個監察院他會有他的處理好 沒關係 以上我只是想藉由今天的質詢來瞭解一下各個機關的立場而已 好不好好 謝謝 廖委員 謝謝謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1169,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時54分）謝謝主席。邀請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好。其實您就任之後，就是在處理一些您就任之前發生的一些爭端，一些爭議性的東西。您一上任就宣示直面爭議，絕無袒護，當初的宣示是這樣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員先翔：我應該沒有抹黑你或是誇大，反正就是面對問題，解決事情。但是我今天看了你們交給委員會的報告，審計部有審計部的報告，勞動部有勞動部的報告，但勞動部的報告感覺有些避重就輕。審計部的報告很明確提到，當初社會議題討論最大的那一場演唱會，審計部的專報有提出是「使用不當」的，有沒有違法不知道，但至少是使用不當。但是在勞動部的專報中卻沒有檢討這一件事情，我想確認這件事情是同仁一開始就沒有寫上去嗎？還是部長有要求這場演唱會不要寫到報告裡面？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，關於音樂會，基本上就是在七千多萬裡面！"],["廖委員先翔：對！你們寫了一些項目……"],["洪部長申翰：從一開始到後來都在七千多萬裡面，所以……"],["廖委員先翔：我知道七千多萬裡面有很多項目，其實審計部給的也不只這些，有很多項目……"],["洪部長申翰：對，它給了非常多……"],["廖委員先翔：我挑一些重點，譬如社會大眾關心的項目來講，包括影片製作等等，你們都如實羅列了。但社會大眾最關心的演唱會，你們好像就不敢寫上去。"],["洪部長申翰：不是不敢，沒有什麼好不敢，這是大家都關心的事情。今天整個早上大家都在討論這件事情！我們只是做一些摘要的列舉，也沒有迴避音樂會這件事情，辦理這場音樂會的檢討我們也做了，所以這只是一個列舉……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，同仁本來就沒寫進來，部長沒有要求……"],["洪部長申翰：我也沒有要怪同仁，但其實很簡單，所有的項目是以審計部給我們的項目……"],["廖委員先翔：有時候我們在看一份報告，會從報告所陳列的項目來看勞動部到底有沒有真心願意來檢討，可能就先從書面資料來看。另外，之前有新聞提到審計部的報告出來了，部長表示會用公務預算去補，所以我想跟部長確認，你會不會有一毛錢是要跟許銘春或謝宜容來求償的？"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，因為現在大家都很關心決策者的責任。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["洪部長申翰：勞動部會配合檢調跟司法調查的結果去做追究。"],["廖委員先翔：檢調可能涉及刑事，這當然尊重，但是內部的行政作業，既然審計部已經要求勞動部追回，而追回有兩種方式：一種就是部長講的，用隔年度的公務預算去補回來；另外一種追回方式，是跟失職的公職人員求償。這兩種方式應該沒錯吧！"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，勞動部是一個行政單位，我們如果要對個人追討也需要有法律上的依據。"],["廖委員先翔：是，所以您可以提出來……"],["洪部長申翰：法律依據比方說有司法的判決，或者如果有判定是不是要剔除，這些就是法律依據，我們就有責任要去追回，所以今天要跟任何一個人追回，我們都要有法律的依據。"],["廖委員先翔：目前的法律依據就是審計部有……"],["洪部長申翰：所以如果後續檢調的辦理……"],["廖委員先翔：刑事歸刑事，行政歸行政，求償是民事吧！"],["洪部長申翰：如果今天檢調判定比方說侵佔，我們就該追回啊！"],["廖委員先翔：你認為使用不當是機關的責任，還是決策者的責任？他不一定有刑事責任，這點我認同啊！"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，我們現在就是依照審計結果跟相關的規範來做後續的執行，關於個人的責任……"],["廖委員先翔：所以審計部請你們追回，有兩個方向可以走，你們現在就是選擇用公務預算來補，目前沒有要對許銘春或謝宜容追回嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員這樣講有點簡化。現在檢調跟司法都在偵辦中，我們會配合檢調跟司法的偵辦，如果檢調、司法的結果出來，該怎麼追，我們就怎麼追。"],["廖委員先翔：部長，如果什麼東西都推給檢調，審計部也不用出報告了，您──部長上任也不用宣示了！任何一個部長都可以依據法律推給司法、刑事的檢調單位就好了。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員，這不是推給司法，而是我們對個人的追討要有法律依據。"],["廖委員先翔：審計部請你們追回，你們就有法令依據，就是使用不當。所以你有兩條路走，但你選擇用公務預算來補，而不是向個人來求償。"],["洪部長申翰：審計部的報告很清楚，它是寫「修正、減列、追回」，修正減列追回的意思，也希望廖委員可以了解。"],["廖委員先翔：部長，我的時間有限！上任宣示的時候都講得很好聽，有一句閩南語叫做「講甲一畚箕、做無一湯匙」，常常會有這樣子的說法。我希望我們當初說什麼、當初給社會的期待是什麼、上任後給大家的期待是什麼，我們後續就依據大家的期待來做。"],["洪部長申翰：我們從一開始就是說我們尊重審計的結果，我們會依照審計的結果去做相關的辦理，這個立場從一開始、從12月到現在都沒有改變。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，謝謝部長。","再給我一點時間，我請副審計長。","副審計長，這個是去年我質詢審計長的影片","（播放影片）"],["廖委員先翔：我那時候很明確地問審計長追回的對象，應該就確定會追回了，我一直追問他會不會很明確地寫出追回的對象，但是很遺憾這一次審計報告沒有寫追回的對象是誰。剛剛依照洪部長的回應，目前可能他自己的判斷在等檢調單位的調查，所以目前的方向是由公務機關編列預算來彌補追回的問題。就之前審計長所講的，要去釐清追回的對象，如果勞動部是用公務預算來補的話，那你們願意替它背書嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，這個沒有背書的問題，目前我們是修正就業安定基金的決算。"],["廖委員先翔：審計長說看責任在誰？現在部長認為應該是用公務預算來補就好了，那你們認同他這樣的作法嗎？我當初很明確地要問許銘春跟謝宜容有沒有責任？要不要跟他們追回？當初那一場你應該也有旁聽，審計長很明確地說看責任在誰，看責任在誰就跟誰追回，我的理解是這樣子。"],["李副審計長順保：沒錯。我們現在……"],["廖委員先翔：沒錯嘛！至少現在勞動部不認為責任在謝宜容跟許銘春。"],["李副審計長順保：這個我不方便幫勞動部答復，但是審計部能做的是，第一個，司法部分我們移送檢調，這個要等最終的判決確定……"],["廖委員先翔：司法歸司法，我們不討論。"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，跟委員報告，司法上如果是因為個人的行為，除了觸犯刑法以外還造成公帑損失，我們一定要追究財務責任。"],["廖委員先翔：造成刑法跟公帑損失兩者不一定有直接關聯，一個是刑事責任、一個是行政責任。"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，審計部並沒有司法調查權，所以我們沒辦法去釐清相關對照關係……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，我客觀的講，就是針對勞動部目前打算用公務預算來補要追回的錢，審計部是沒有意見的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，這要尊重行政機關……"],["廖委員先翔：就是尊重，沒有意見嘛？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，不是沒意見，預算的籌編是行政院的責任、是部會責任，不是審計部，審計部是監督預算執行。"],["廖委員先翔：那就是沒意見？不是你的責任就沒意見嘛？"],["李副審計長順保：我們能做的……不是、不是，我們有自己獨立的審計立場，包括剛剛廖委員很關心可能有特定首長要負責任，這個部分我們都移送到監察院，監察院會有它的處理……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，以上我只是想藉由今天的質詢來了解各個機關的立場而已，好不好？"],["李副審計長順保：是，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝副審計長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員、謝謝副審計長。","繼續我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"160002","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160002","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcea418d451266dbaa7a0ce932bdb5123485ac7c33fa41034565483ce43c3d65a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:52:26 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辛苦了今天中午就如同您剛才講的12點開始我們美國的32%的關稅已經生效了當然在它公布的時候我們就知道對台灣的整個造成很大的衝擊尤其是我們以出口為主的導向的一個產業"},{"start":44.441,"end":62.727,"text":"那直接對我們的實質打擊是非常大的那剛才幾位議員這邊也提到了一個相關的訊息我這邊就不多贅述那今天呢實踐的關係我想針對我們整個實質打擊然後所產生的衝擊兩個大象來跟您做一個探討那第一個部分是"},{"start":65.42,"end":82.419,"text":"長期我們對於衝擊跟產業的一個處理常常都以升級轉型的政策來做因應那在這一波的衝擊下那這樣一個方式我們能夠怎麼樣實質的產生一些效果"},{"start":83.16,"end":104.65,"text":"那第二個部分的是我們的產業結構其實很早就受到高地價高人力成本跟環保高環保要求的這個壓力的這個多重擠壓我們的產業線已經也有一些外移但是在現階段美國這樣子高關稅的衝擊其實在這個部分又寫上加雙所以今天最主要這兩個"},{"start":105.911,"end":125.845,"text":"重點那剛才因為也有委員談到你們應該相關的在你的轄下可以掌控而且比較了解的相關產業你應該也做了一些衝擊的分析那我也提醒一下這個會後也請提供給本席所以剛才本席所談的這兩個部分那汽車產業其實我們不僅有這個整個產業鏈的一個狀況衝擊的這個狀況那"},{"start":134.892,"end":149.194,"text":"當然當然有一些委員提到那是不是很多人就認為可以買到比較便宜的美國汽車那這是一種想法但是我這邊跟您做一下交流也就是說我們整個"},{"start":150.355,"end":175.387,"text":"是不是有機會來設置汽車供應鏈的這個重整基金然後協助轉向內需跟新興市場然後解決剛才其實大家都知道的整個汽車產業鏈的問題我不知道您對這個看法上是謝謝委員指導我想在這個汽車的部分確實台灣因為這個市場很小台灣大概一年只能有這個"},{"start":177.128,"end":184.552,"text":"二十幾萬台的這個需求那我們現在大概就在收集這個資訊短期裡面我們現在這個舊的車超過20年以上的車聽說有100多萬輛"},{"start":196.892,"end":213.504,"text":"那我們希望就是以新換舊以新換舊然後來把這個市場讓出來不打擊我們國內的這個原有的這個製造製造T我們台灣有很多的我們有六大廠商在台灣製造大概二十幾萬台"},{"start":214.324,"end":240.697,"text":"那我想這個以新代舊的這個部分推出來我們可能就是把貨物稅拿掉然後讓它具有競爭力然後來換舊那第二個就是說美國會進來的車美國會進來的車不是只有美國品牌的車不是只有福特Cadillac它可能會進來現在包括連韓國的車都到美國去設廠那麼日本的車也在美國設廠他們都會進來"},{"start":243.018,"end":250.508,"text":"所以在台湾的我们要解决这20几万的从业人员我们当然有很多的方法台湾的电子零组件非常强"},{"start":251.508,"end":276.363,"text":"所以我們都在幫助這些廠商希望他回到他的 譬如說日本然後我們跟日本的主廠跟他談說欸 台灣可不可以幫你做這個電動車好的 那這樣看起來其實有很多細節這邊要做相關的談判跟處理嘛對 但是美國的這個談判我們能夠談多久然後能夠是不是就只談到零我們是從零開始談"},{"start":277.424,"end":295.178,"text":"所以我們這個會議談到一個美國可以接受的然後這個裡面也牽扯到時間是不是馬上立馬就是0或者是立馬跟美國一樣2.5這個不一定我們這是談判的手法但是我們的目標跟委員報告我們的目標就是幫助國內的產業"},{"start":301.564,"end":317.313,"text":"不能夠萎縮不能夠讓國內產業部長我這邊剛才其實也提到在過去的方法上都是所謂的財政補助或單點的技術升級但是這對整個系統性的風險您覺得有幫助嗎我們現在重新盤點提出能夠因應現況的對策大概跟過去不會一樣"},{"start":326.758,"end":344.78,"text":"所以本席希望這個部分能夠更積極的作為那另外當然其實有很多細節的這個問題沒有辦法在這邊細談但是對於目前傳產面對高地價高人力高環保壓力那這個部分你怎麼看這個結構性的挑戰那我這邊有個例子就是你們在過去的這個輔導上"},{"start":346.101,"end":367.681,"text":"今年114年你們整合資源的升級轉型也就是你們過去都對單點但是整合性的做起來好像稍微不是力道不是那麼強所以你們在整個升級轉型總共才41筆而且是專注在個別企業導入相關的數位工具還有升級設備但是整個產業整體的這個規劃"},{"start":370.083,"end":382.919,"text":"好像沒有很明確那怎麼樣因應外來的這樣這麼大的關稅的衝擊呢那這個部分你們有沒有一些想法能夠跳脫過去這個效能不彰的這樣子的輔導跟單點的補助呢"},{"start":385.971,"end":411.281,"text":"中小企業署的部分我是不請署長跟你回報可能很快的回報 時間有限大概零三十秒針對我剛才講的那個部分你們現在欠缺系統性的處理而且很多時候都是這個數位升級也就是你們補助跟輔導的東西不痛不癢所以你沒有系統性的一個處理因應外來的 我們現在所碰到的衝擊我不認為你們的效度能夠去因應 您的看法"},{"start":411.821,"end":430.354,"text":"是 包委員這邊我們每年都在加強改進特別針對產業所面臨的不同的樣態的問題我們會針對這個問題也就是廠商所需要解決的到底是在智慧的生產或是它數位能力的提升或是它要怎麼樣進一步節能減碳這就是我說的問題就是廠商會提出單點的問題然後你們針對他們單點的問題可是就國家而言我們是有力道可以去處理一個系統性跟整個產業別"},{"start":439.901,"end":459.55,"text":"那你們可能在這個數據上有沒有掌握然後再來在過去的這樣一個支持上或投入輔導上或因應企業的需求有沒有做更有效能的一個規劃這個是我需要知道的一個答案把每一個處理的方式變成一個模組變成一個具體的一個個案然後把這個個案把它盡量朝向"},{"start":460.47,"end":484.672,"text":"推廣 推廣的方式 讓更多的中小企業推廣在產業的部分你是要有一個效能跟結果的所以要想他們能夠產生具體的中小然後更多的中小企業所以說是不是 針對這個部分你如果有比較具體的報告會後給本席做一個提供好不好那你應該聽得懂本席所擔憂的跟所提出的建議是的我這邊假設是這樣嘛好 那就先這樣子好不好謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1289,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時52分）謝謝召委。主席、府院同仁大家好，我現在請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["林委員倩綺：部長好，辛苦了。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：就如同你剛才講的，今天中午12點開始，美國的32%關稅已經生效了。當然在他公布的時候，我們就知道對臺灣整體造成很大的衝擊，尤其是對以出口導向為主的產業，實質打擊是非常大的。剛才幾位委員也提到一個相關的訊息，我就不多贅述，時間的關係，我想針對實質打擊後所產生的衝擊分兩個大項來跟您探討。","第一個部分，長期以來，我們對於衝擊跟產業的處理常常都以升級轉型的政策因應，在這一波衝擊下，這樣的方式能夠怎麼樣產生一些實質效果？第二個部分，我們的產業結構其實很早就受到高地價、高人力成本跟高環保要求的壓力等多種擠壓，產業線已經有一些外移，但是現階段又受到美國高關稅的衝擊，在這個部分又雪上加霜。我今天最主要有兩個重點，剛才也有委員談到，在你轄下可以掌控而且比較了解的相關產業，你們應該也做了一些衝擊的分析，我也提醒一下，會後請提供給本席。"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：剛才本席所談的這兩個部分，其實不僅整個汽車產業鏈的衝擊狀況，當然剛剛有一些委員提到，是不是很多人就認為可以買到比較便宜的美國汽車，這是一種想法。但是我這邊跟您做一下交流，我們是不是有機會設置汽車供應鏈的重整基金，協助轉向內需跟新興市場，解決其實大家都知道的整個汽車產業鏈的問題？我不知道你對這個看法如何？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導。我想在汽車的部分，確實因為臺灣這個市場很小，臺灣一年大概只能有二十幾萬台的需求，我們現在蒐集這個資訊，短期裡，現在超過20年以上的舊車聽說有一百多萬輛。"],["林委員倩綺：本席也有一輛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望以新換舊，然後把這個市場讓出來，不打擊國內原有的製造。我們有六大廠商在臺灣製造，大概二十幾萬台，我想以新代舊的部分推出來，我們可能就是把貨物稅拿掉，讓它具有競爭力，然後來換舊。","第二個就是美國會進來的車，美國會進來的不是只有美國品牌的車，不是只有福特、Cadillac，現在可能會進來的車，包括韓國的車都到美國去設廠，日本的車也在美國設廠，這些車都會進來。所以要解決在臺灣這二十幾萬的從業人員，我們當然有很多的方法。臺灣的電子零組件非常強，所以我們都在幫助這些廠商，希望它回到母國，譬如日本，然後我跟日本的主廠談臺灣可不可以幫你做電動車，然後讓他轉換……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，這樣看起來，其實有很多細節，要做相關的談判跟處理嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是美國的談判，我們能夠談多久，是不是就只能談到零，我們是從零開始談，所以我們會去談到一個美國可以接受的。這裡也牽扯到時間，是不是馬上立馬就是零，或者是立馬跟美國一樣2.5%，這個不一定，這是談判的手法，但是我們的目標……"],["林委員倩綺：這可能都是你們談判的專業手法等等，還有時間的壓迫性。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，我們的目標就是幫助國內產業不能夠萎縮，不能讓國內產業萎縮。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，剛才其實也提到，過去的方法都是所謂的財政補助或單點的技術升級，但是對整個系統性的風險，您覺得有幫助嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在重新盤點，提出能夠因應現況的對策，當然跟過去不會一樣。"],["林委員倩綺：本席希望這個部分能夠有更積極的作為。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員倩綺：其實有很多細節的問題沒有辦法在這邊細談，但是目前傳產面對高地價、高人力、高環保壓力，關於這個部份，你怎麼看這個結構性的挑戰？","我這邊有個例子，今年（114年）你們整合資源的升級轉型，你們過去都對單點輔導，但是整合性的做起來好像力道不是那麼強，所以今年整個升級轉型總共才41筆，而且是專注在個別企業導入相關的數位工具還有升級設備，但是整個產業整體的規劃好像沒有很明確，那怎麼因應外來這麼大的關稅衝擊呢？針對這個部分，你們有沒有一些想法，能夠跳脫過去效能不彰的輔導跟單點的補助呢？"],["郭部長智輝：中小企業的部分，我是不是請署長跟您回報？"],["林委員倩綺：可能要很快的回報，因為時間有限。","針對我剛才講的，你們現在欠缺系統性的處理，而且很多時候都是數位升級，你們補助跟輔導的東西不痛不癢，沒有系統性的處理，去因應我們現在所碰到的外來衝擊，我不認為你們的效度能夠去因應。您的看法？"],["李署長冠志：報告委員，這一點我們每年都在加強改進，特別是產業面臨不同樣態的問題，我們會針對這個問題，也就是廠商需要解決的，到底是智慧生產或是數位能力的提升，或者要怎麼樣進一步節能減碳……"],["林委員倩綺：這就是我說的問題，廠商會提出單點的問題，你們針對他們單點的問題，可是就國家而言，我們有力道可以去處理系統性跟整個產業別，你們在這個數據上有沒有掌握？過去這樣的支持上或投入輔導上或因應企業的需求，有沒有做更有效能的規劃？這是我需要知道的答案。"],["李署長冠志：所以我們這個改善，把每一個處理的方式變成一個模組，變成一個具體的個案，然後把這個案儘量朝向推廣的方式，讓更多的中小企業……"],["林委員倩綺：你有推廣？在產業的部分，你要有一些效能跟結果。"],["李署長冠志：是，所以要想著讓他們能夠產生具體的綜效，然後更多的中小企業……"],["林委員倩綺：針對這個部分，你如果有比較具體的報告，會後提供給本席好不好？"],["李署長冠志：是。"],["林委員倩綺：您應該聽得懂本席所擔憂的跟所提出的建議。"],["李署長冠志：是的。"],["林委員倩綺：我這邊假設是這樣嘛！好，那就先這樣子，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請陳冠廷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席有請部長 謝謝好 部長請"},{"start":15.066,"end":30.036,"text":"委員好部長有一個事情其實也是跟足協有關那我幫部長整理了一些資訊因為確實有一些業務並不在部長您擔任部長之後很多是在之前那因為我時間有限我就簡單的說在去年2024年3月21號"},{"start":32.057,"end":56.51,"text":"我們提了一個提案那當時教育部也同意希望在兩週內通知所有被足協欠款的人那足協必須要整理欠款的明細可是從2024年3月21號目前為止到今天此時此刻已經超過一年了我們跟很多債權人問都還沒有交出來部長我說這是在您之前我認為足協真的有很多問題好再來下一個"},{"start":58.152,"end":84.051,"text":"當時我們還發現主寫轉播的費用呢超支了數百萬當時體育署給我們的說法呢說是因為多頻道上架所以沒有問題我們就接受了可是我們對於費用還是很有疑問所以我們去問了審計部審計部給我們的報告說體育署沒有核實審核經費的編列跟超支的合理性我依然覺得如果審計部都這樣說了我認為教育部要有更多的態度接下來下一個這個就是在部長您上任我跟您說過"},{"start":85.312,"end":96.735,"text":"當時呢這日本的奧運選手他很有可能得金牌喔是很有可能得金牌的選手但是因為他未成年營酒被抓到所以這個選手被做出退隊的處分我當時就問部長說台灣的足協呢卻讓未成年營酒問題退隊的球員重返"},{"start":102.277,"end":129.127,"text":"國家隊當時部長你也認為這個做法是不妥的我非常謝謝部長你的態度但是我跟部長報告到了今年三月的足協會議記錄部長這個是公開每一個人都可以查得到的竟然讓當時也有喝酒的教練繼續在足協擔任U17國家隊總教練國家隊喔不中再來下一張剛剛很多委員都非常關心足協我也聽到部長你早上說欸你是說什麼丟臉這樣"},{"start":131.195,"end":150.326,"text":"這是一個網友整理的他都還不是專業人士他甚至也沒有看立法院的轉播也沒有看什麼新聞太多他光是用輿論他可以查得到就整理出這麼多從2023年10月24日一直到目前為止我認為單項協會各式各樣的監督光是在足協這件事情我剛講都是足協到底這個監督出了什麼問題我知道"},{"start":151.627,"end":175.675,"text":"署長真的很認真想要解決很多問題可是如果足協這麼多一直出狀況卻讓我們行政機關背鍋這件事情到底彼此的責任跟分工那我就不再問補助金額的問題所以部長這件事情我知道今年可能8月9月我們運動部就要掛牌了那但是在這之前我相信國人還是對所有體育業務有非常非常高度的期待部長你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":176.875,"end":201.523,"text":"我想我完全同意委員所剛才所提的全國國民都在關心也樂觀這個運動部的一個成立希望能夠讓全民能夠有更好的一些運動的一個場域跟人才培育但是怎麼樣讓看起來這個足球界我想會後我"},{"start":202.563,"end":219.338,"text":"我要拜託這個張廖次長跟這個鄭處長我看我們直接跟竹捷一樣一樣來盤點到底問題出在哪裡哪些是體制上應該要來改善的哪些是屬於單向學會我想我們必須要認真地面對這個問題不然"},{"start":221.875,"end":225.778,"text":"國家的這個聲望 大家的努力這個臉真的是丟不起"},{"start":251.815,"end":275.024,"text":"服務運動部他之所以成立的意義這件事情我認為所有的文官一定都會非常支持台灣人也會非常的支持要拜託部長我們辦公室也會積極來確認最後部長我再一分鐘我們辦公室因為真的很關心運動所以我們自己非常積極的主持了辦了很多座談會一個是從兒少的運動政策一個是適應運動也就是對於特教生或者是身心障礙全"},{"start":276.024,"end":290.437,"text":"全年齡的身心障礙的適應運動在未來的運動部的狀態還有謝士元老師跟周思齊都一直很在意的運動文化我們自己甚至也辦了一場座談會也有非常多立法委員參與甚至還有運動外交還有運動文化的部分"},{"start":291.098,"end":314.193,"text":"部長這麼多都要在未來的運動部做但是我們現在不是很確定運動部的很多規劃我想我這邊就是用簡單的時間提醒外部的專家會議當然很重要但是外部的專家會議所形成的很多討論最後可以落實於政策但是這個政策如果最後又只是變成了標案委託案讓舊有的單位去執行舊有的這個運動系統去執行它會不會淪為新瓶裝舊酒就是剛剛那個不管是單項協會的問題或者是"},{"start":321.518,"end":344.433,"text":"各個行政人員對於這些新的政策的想像我再說一次運動外交運動文化這些事情我都認為會有非常多擔心那當然我後續也會再持續跟張亮次長討論因為我知道現在這個整合的業務在張亮次長跟署長您的身上只是這邊我還是要提出提醒那如果部長您在這邊因為有高教的經驗你可能有更多"},{"start":345.773,"end":371.388,"text":"經驗的回饋我認為也會對我們未來的運動部會有很大的幫助而且部長您今天很多的態度都非常正向積極我也希望我們的未來運動部也是這個狀態好嗎好 謝謝部長那後續關於那個剛剛主席的部分我們會再努力去來跟你們討論好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝陳培宇委員署長 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謝謝主席 有請審計部理副審計長審計部最主要的詞權"},{"start":23.669,"end":41.625,"text":"簡單說明好不好主要是監督預算執行還有考核財務效能跟核定財務責任核定財務責任嘛是也有稽查財務上的缺失嘛違失嘛對不對核定相關財務的這個責任嘛是所以基本上你們是在監督各級政府"},{"start":43.146,"end":56.885,"text":"機關的整個這個財政上的這個收支的情況然後也要這個審定這個決算等等最主要最主要還是有個財務上的這樣的一個維持都是你們在做這個稽查沒有錯嘛是"},{"start":57.225,"end":78.742,"text":"所以基本上我們要監督人家的這個機關那要對外整個調查整個集合整個審查的報告要非常非常的精準不為過嘛對不對好所以今天今天你能不能就蘇昭偉排的這個勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追悔及究責這個題目表達你簡單的看法"},{"start":83.465,"end":108.4,"text":"這個議題剛剛前面已經報告就是各界其實都非常關注那關注我想分為兩個部分一個部分是過去發現那些疏失以審計部的立場必須針對過去發生的原因還有根據我們查核發現的相關事證那我們會做一些財務上的監督上要做的處理"},{"start":109.321,"end":136.502,"text":"那另外就是後續後續就是這個事情既然已經發生後續怎麼樣就那個救安定基金這樣救安定基金本身是一個獨立的財務個體他本身基金設置有他的目的我們希望能夠從跟這個行政機關一起來努力讓這個從我們查核發現外部的角度觀察到還有各界的意見"},{"start":137.182,"end":152.179,"text":"我們把它中整提供給勞動部來參考希望能夠在制度面能夠做一些改善好 謝謝副省長我的時間有限了那我們就從第一個面先來談你剛剛討論到了嘛那你看今天張偉白這個主題到底是違規還是違法"},{"start":156.579,"end":164.682,"text":"以目前看上去有違法的也有違規的違法部分因為檢調都已經有一部分已經處理了另外一部分我們也申報有違法亦有違規就是副執行長對這事情的"},{"start":175.746,"end":194.958,"text":"今天主題的這樣一個看法嘛對不對好那我再請教一下你們給勞動部的含糊是民國109年到113年總共有7000多萬都接受安利基金在使用上與基金業務用途關聯性不高是沒有錯嘛這是你們所寫出來的報告嘛對不對屬公務預算資應換籌也沒有錯嘛屬公務預算資應換籌"},{"start":201.125,"end":229.626,"text":"這個文字我們其實是其實後面有其他文字啦因為我們覺得說那個部分我們尊重勞動部是勞動業務的主管機關他認為這個跟我整個勞動業務有關我們不能有其他的不同意見這個我們尊重所以關聯性並不高就是說不能使用在這個救援基金上面跟基金的用途是關聯性不高嘛對不對但是他應該可以屬於用在公務預算裡面"},{"start":231.047,"end":249.52,"text":"這個必須勞動部他們根據自己個案因為裡面個案非常多我們列舉出來包括演唱會或者是宣導部分那個部分我想有一部分應該都是跟勞動業務有直接相關是嘛有相關嘛對不對但是跟救援基金的關聯性不高不高應該是這麼講嘛我應該對你這個報告裡面的這樣的一個解釋應該是理解的嘛跟你要表達的應該是看完一致嘛好"},{"start":259.206,"end":261.228,"text":"那如果這樣有沒有所謂的違規違法因為這裡面我們現在就針對這個範疇就好有違規跟違法嗎違法部分其他違法部分就不談嘛可以在公務預算去動之但是不能在居安基金這邊動之那基本上有違規違法的問題嗎"},{"start":281.712,"end":304.352,"text":"如果從預算法25條來看因為預算法25條規定是不能在預算外動之經費所以這個部分是需要審酌相關規定審酌相關規定 對但是如果說陳磊所講的他們拍影片做相關的宣導然後在各部會其實原本的預算裡面也都有編列這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":306.954,"end":315.6,"text":"那在這個救援基金基本上不應該來編這樣的一個經費所以就回歸到公務預算去做支應"},{"start":316.755,"end":337.712,"text":"才屬於合情合理合法嘛對不對應該是這麼講嘛所以就是簡單講就是矯正回歸到公務預算來做這個指引嘛逐級上是這樣嘛對不對好我是必須要這麼講啊如果他如果以這個困獲裡面他並沒有違規違法的問題只不過他動這情況確實有違反到相關的法令那簡單講"},{"start":340.137,"end":357.951,"text":"再比較從第二個角度去思考它還是有違規之前啦但是是否涉及到違法我覺得那倒不至於啦是這個幻蟲這我個人的簡單看法你看到各部位都拍了這麼多片"},{"start":358.832,"end":368.436,"text":"我倒要幫這個勞動部講幾句話這麼多部位拍了這麼多片勞動部到2023年還拍到這個勞動萬歲為勞工拍的影片勞動萬歲還入圍到2024的坎城創意獎然後也得到這個國內的32屆的4A創意獎最佳長秒數的廣告也得到這個金獎其他部位我看還沒有得到這麼多獎項"},{"start":386.499,"end":403.639,"text":"那總而言之 業務總之反正他不應該編載救援基金就是不應該編載救援基金啦是他就是要回歸到這個公務預算區之一嘛 對不對所以我今天要表達這樣的一個論述基本上以審計部在審查在查額在"},{"start":404.379,"end":419.168,"text":"整個處理這個相關的預算支應過程裡面是我有為師也是你的義務範圍那我們就要把他校正嘛對不對好那謝謝副審計長的答覆請副審計長可以回座位謝謝委員來有請部長部長我跟副審計長的對話很清楚嘛那為什麼這些錢一定要在居安基金不在勞動部裡面去做支應"},{"start":429.643,"end":451.959,"text":"一個很大的原因是因為長期以來其實勞動部的這個部本部的預算的編列真的都不足工預算都不足所以後來其實有很多的支出就開始好像就會越來越依賴專基金那這也是很多我們現在看到的一個問題的根源系統性的根源的來源所以你們有做怎樣的矯正嗎"},{"start":454.076,"end":462.312,"text":"第一個是我們其實那時候在提出救安基金的改革做法的時候我們第一個步驟就是先跟行政院跟主計來表達我們未來"},{"start":463.973,"end":489.814,"text":"在其他部會如果他們照理來說應該是用公務預算的我們要爭取我們也要用公務預算比方說有很多的宣傳這些宣傳就像剛剛劉燕說的其實我們有很多宣傳這些績效他甚至上了國際的舞台他其實是好的可是因為我們的公務預算邊內不足變成他要去用救安基金這時候就會被判定跟救安基金關聯不高或不該用救安基金的問題接下來這些我們都希望能夠回到公務預算這是第一個第二個事情是我覺得有確實有一些部分"},{"start":490.214,"end":517.131,"text":"我認為我們在這個執行上面是可以在做效益上面的檢討的那包括這些相關的規範也包括這次在審計裡面有講到開口契約的問題我是覺得我們的開口契約也該做更嚴格的規範不用像 不該像過去這樣這麼這個所謂開口契約的彈性這麼大也很容易引起爭議你開口契約怎麼去做一個改善你能不能簡單在委員會說明清楚好"},{"start":518.722,"end":535.983,"text":"過去其實在開口企業裡面你會看到很多影片或者是活動他都放在開口企業裡面其實容易出爭議的就會是這些拍攝影片或者是活動的辦理未來我們會把這些影片跟活動的辦理都從開口企業裡面拿出來也就是他該依照採購法"},{"start":536.984,"end":560.045,"text":"來去做相關的採購招標的就走這個路而不用只是把它放在開口契約裡面這個部分的改革已經從12月我們就開始去年12月就已經開始了所以我們把那時候開口契約的標案是直接給停下來的OK 好那另外另外一點你特別提到預算如果不足的情況之下要怎麼辦我們當然現在是要跟你爭取不到又要怎麼辦"},{"start":562.506,"end":590.807,"text":"我們會就是不能再從這個不相關聯性的資應裡面去中救安基金去動之嘛你做得到嗎對你當部長你做得到嗎當然對不對對不應該把這個事情再發生嗎對如果我們做出多少的成績反正關聯性跟救安基金沒有相關的你就不能從那邊動之嗎對未來就是不能做因為我們就是在用途面直接做出了限定了好了所以請南東部要自行檢討清楚了避免未來的這個誤用跟錯用好不好好那最後一點"},{"start":592.088,"end":619.93,"text":"救援基金回歸到本題救援基金其實它最主要目的就是促進國民就業提升勞工扶植但是它在疫情的時間它也扮演著救火隊當時兩年是變了多少錢你記得吧要應付整個勞動市場這樣的大變動要應付所謂的自營作業者還有無一定的雇主的生活補助以及勞工紓困貸款的利息補貼"},{"start":621.913,"end":626.081,"text":"我們算了一下3年多應該是有400億左右嘛對不對3年多那我們這次要應變這個關稅大戰的情況之下"},{"start":633.14,"end":659.493,"text":"行政院在勞動部的換手裡面變了多少錢 同意變了多少錢現在我們因為這次關稅的因應的時間長短還不一定我們目前是先框151但如果需要的話也可以再增加如果需要的話也可以再增加絕對需要也一定要增加所以你可能部長要積極的爭取未雨綢繆因為到底要打多久的關稅站不清楚而且像"},{"start":660.513,"end":675.93,"text":"川普這樣的一個政治狂人你跟他講零關稅他要請你要再多拿一些錢來談甚至於他從這個領域裡面他又會跑到另外一個領域現在又講到我們下個禮拜或許我要特別跟蘇貞偉來討論要不要請武漢委員會來針對"},{"start":679.514,"end":698.286,"text":"這個相關藥品的進出口的問題因為他又點到這一項了所以全世界皆因川普而要趕快做相關的機器的應用跟佈局跟還有一些跟長治久安的規劃尤其勞工的這樣的一個市場裡面這樣的環境裡面可能會衝擊到更多"},{"start":701.348,"end":725.708,"text":"我想這邊列舉的應該部長都很清楚嘛是對不對出國最深的產業是電子資訊、鋼鐵、金屬機械、汽車零組件、建材、家電農業部門還有蝴蝶籃、毛豆、茶葉以及烏龜魚、鬼頭豆、鱸魚等等等這全部都是勞力密集的中小企業及傳統製造業還有農業是所以可能會很快的遇到很多的無薪假很多的被裁員"},{"start":728.753,"end":754.24,"text":"這個絕對不會亞於疫情的時間所受到的衝擊而且他來的速度會更快多久的時間不清楚我們會把財源都做好準備對OK你們之前有一個10萬的這個這個這個滴滴滴的貸款對不對那利息你知道那次10萬塊而已沒這個但是要還只不過免利息推這個案的時候總共幾個案幾個件數"},{"start":758.211,"end":767.468,"text":"幾個眷屬你們還記得吧這十萬塊賺到的工資跟家庭是很好用的沒理想的"},{"start":770.228,"end":785.493,"text":"生態的件數總共幾案?你記得嗎?國務委員報告一下在109年跟110年有辦了勞工紓困貸款總共核定的件數有159萬多件159萬多件嗎?159萬就對了齁?對只有受理的這個過程裡面其實就耗過很多時間嘛對不對?好那我們要去補貼這些利息,勞動部花多少錢?"},{"start":797.586,"end":819.28,"text":"這兩年我們勞動部是補貼他一年勞工貸款第一年的利息那包括後來央行升息那我們大概總共花費了兩次的貸款總共花費了30億所以補貼利息這兩年我們就貼了30億了對不對等於佔現在關稅的這一個因應的措施150億的五分之一了"},{"start":821.57,"end":825.052,"text":"對不對 歷史補貼就歷史補貼而已歷史補貼就佔了你這一次應對關稅大戰的151的50%的額度了嘛 對不對那你什麼時候要啟動"},{"start":834.079,"end":863.078,"text":"這一次什麼時候要啟動什麼時機有評估過了嗎目前看起來因為其實我們現在其實把相關的政策工具準備那有些部分會先實施有些這邊後實施那比方說就像大家現在比較關心的可能減班休息的部分我們會優先的來先做實施所以剛才在講說保護要向勞工的紓困貸款這是當時在疫情的時候可能比較中斷的時候會來推出的做法所以我們目前其實也是在盤點不同的政策工具它上路的工具上路的時機點"},{"start":864.92,"end":879.841,"text":"我只是提醒部長這一次的換酬裡面很多都是屬於密集勞工的相關的一些產業跟農業跟傳統製造業對不對這次來的速度可能會更快150億真的會不夠用所以我要請部長是不是很快速度一週內吧"},{"start":881.581,"end":901.356,"text":"因為你看川普不用一週內他就變化萬千要變大家要一起跟著來應變不然會到時候連變都來不及變我們會再盤點一下經費的可能好是請整個盤整勞工的衝擊的影響評估還有可能所需要的實際經費同時也能啟動勞工紓困貸款利息補貼的時機好不好好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1045,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時39分）好，謝謝主席。有請審計部李副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：副審計長好。請簡單說明審計部最主要的職權。"],["李副審計長順保：主要是監督預算執行、考核財務效能、核定財務責任。"],["劉委員建國：核定財務責任？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：也有稽查財務上的缺失、違失，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：還有核定相關財務的責任。所以基本上你們是在監督各級政府、機關整個財政上的收支情況，然後也要審定決算等等。最主要，你們是在稽查財務上的違失，沒有錯嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以基本上既然要監督人家的機關，因此整個調查、稽核、審查報告都要非常精準，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以今天能不能就蘇召委排的「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」這個題目，表達你簡單的看法？"],["李副審計長順保：這個議題前面已經有報告過，其實各界都非常關注。我想以審計部的立場，分為兩個部分：一個部分是過去發現的疏失，會針對發生的原因，以及根據我們查核發現的相關事證，做財務和監督上的處理；另外一個部分就是後續的處理，既然事情已經發生，那後續的處理，像就業安定基金。就業安定基金，是一個獨立的財務個體，本身的基金設置有它的目的。我們希望能跟行政機關一起努力，從我們查核的發現、外部觀察的角度到各界的意見，一併統整給勞動部參考，希望能在制度方面做一些改善。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝副審計長，我的時間有限，就從你剛剛談論到的第一個面向來談。你看今天召委排這個主題，到底是違規還是違法？回答精準、簡單就好。"],["李副審計長順保：以目前來看有違法的，也有違規的。"],["劉委員建國：有違法亦有違規就對了？"],["李副審計長順保：對，違法的部分，因為檢調有一部分已經處理了，另外一部分我們也申報了……"],["劉委員建國：有違法亦有違規，這是副審計長對今天這個主題的一個看法，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：我再請教一下，你們給勞動部的函復是民國109年到113年，總共有七千多萬的就業安定基金，在使用上與基金業務用途關聯性不高？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：這是你們寫的報告對不對？屬公務預算支用範疇，也沒有錯嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：屬公務預算……"],["劉委員建國：公務預算支用範疇。"],["李副審計長順保：這段文字……其實後面還有其他文字，但那個部分，我們尊重勞動部是勞動業務的主管機關，它認為這個跟整個勞動業務有關，所以我們不能有其他的不同意見，這個我們尊重。"],["劉委員建國：好，所謂關聯性並不高，就是說不能使用在就安基金上？"],["李副審計長順保：跟基金的用途關連性……"],["劉委員建國：關連性不高，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是應該可以用在公務預算裡面？"],["李副審計長順保：這個必須由勞動部根據個案而定，因為裡面有非常多個案，我們列舉出包括演唱會或宣導部分，我想有一部分應該跟勞動業務有直接相關。"],["劉委員建國：是，有相關對不對？但是跟就安基金的關連性不高，應該是這麼講？"],["李副審計長順保：是，不高。"],["劉委員建國：我對你報告裡面的解釋應該是理解的，跟你要表達的應該是一致的？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，那這樣有沒有所謂的違規、違法？"],["李副審計長順保：因為這裡面……"],["劉委員建國：我們現在就針對這個範疇就好。有違規跟違法嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：違法部分……"],["劉委員建國：其他違法部分不談。可以在公務預算上動支，但是不能在就安基金上動支，有違規跟違法的問題嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：如果從預算法第二十五條規定來看，是不能在預算外動支經費，所以這個部分需要審酌相關規定。"],["劉委員建國：審酌相關規定？"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["劉委員建國：誠如你所講，他們拍影片做相關的宣導，然後在各部會原本的預算裡面，也都有編列這樣的計畫。那在就安基金的部分，基本上不應該編這樣的一個經費，所以就回歸到公務預算做支應，才屬於合情、合理、合法，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：應該是這麼講？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：簡單講就是校正回歸到公務預算做支應？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：邏輯上是這樣，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：我必須要這麼講，如果以這個範疇裡面，它並沒有違規、違法的問題，只是它動支的情況，確實有違反到相關的法令。簡單講，從另一個角度去思考，它還是有違規之嫌，但是是否涉及違法？我覺得倒不至於，這是我個人的簡單看法。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：你看，各部會都拍了這麼多片，我倒要幫勞動部講幾句話。在2023年勞動部還拍了《勞動萬歲》，為勞工拍的影片《勞動萬歲》，入圍2024年的坎城創意獎，然後也得到國內第32屆的4A創意獎，最佳長秒數的廣告金獎。我看其他部會還沒有得到這麼多的獎項。"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["劉委員建國：總而言之，就是不應該編在就安基金啦！"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：它就是要回歸到公務預算去支應，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以我今天要表達的論述是，基本上，以審計部在查核整個相關的預算支應過程裡面是否有違失，也是你們義務範圍，那我們就要把它校正，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝副審計長的答復，請副審計長回座。"],["李副審計長順保：好，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，有請部長。部長，我跟副審計長的對話很清楚，為什麼這些錢一定要在就安基金，不在勞動部裡面去做支應？"],["洪部長申翰：一個很大的原因是因為長期以來，勞動部部本部的公務預算編列都真的不足，所以有很多的支出開始越來越依賴就安基金。這也是我們現在看到的問題根源，系統性問題根源的來源。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們有做怎樣的校正嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當時我們在提出就安基金改革做法的時候，第一個步驟就是先跟行政院和主計表達，如果未來在其他部會是使用公務預算的，我們也要爭取使用公務預算。比方說像剛才劉委員說的宣傳，其實我們有很多宣傳的績效是好的，甚至登上國際舞台。可是因為我們的公務預算編列不足，變成要去動用就安基金，這時就被判定跟就安基金關聯不高，或不該用就安基金。因此，接下來我們都希望這些能夠回到公務預算，這是第一個；第二個，我認為我們確實在執行上，可以再做效益方面的檢討，包括這些相關的規範，也包括這次在審計裡面講到開口契約的問題，我是覺得開口契約也該做更嚴格的規範。不該像過去一樣讓開口契約的彈性這麼大，也很容易引起爭議。"],["劉委員建國：開口契約怎麼做改善，你能不能簡單在委員會說明清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：好。過去你會看到很多影片或者活動，都會放在開口契約裡面，其實很容易引起爭議的，就是這些影片的拍攝或者活動的辦理。未來我們會把這些影片跟活動的辦理，都從開口契約裡面拿出來。也就是它該依照採購法，做相關的採購招標的就走這個路，而不用只是把它放在開口契約裡面。這個部分我們已經從去年12月就開始改革了。"],["劉委員建國：去年12月就開始了？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們那時候把開口契約的標案，直接停下來。"],["劉委員建國：OK，好。另外一點你特別提到，預算如果不足的情況之下要怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然會再跟……"],["劉委員建國：如果爭取不到又怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會……"],["劉委員建國：就是不能再從不相關聯性的支應裡面，從就安基金去動支，你做得到嗎？部長你做得到嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["劉委員建國：對不對？不應該讓這個事情再發生……"],["洪部長申翰：如果我們……"],["劉委員建國：不管你們做出多少的成績，反正跟就安基金沒有相關的，你就不能從那邊動支？"],["洪部長申翰：對，未來就是不能做，因為我們就在用途面直接做出限定。"],["劉委員建國：所以請勞動部要自行檢討清楚，避免未來的誤用跟錯用，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：最後一點，回歸到本題，其實就安基金最主要的目的就是促進國民就業，提升勞工福祉。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是在疫情期間，它也扮演著救火隊。你記得當時兩年編了多少錢嗎？要應付整個勞動市場的大變動，要應付自營作業者，還有無一定僱主勞工的生活補助，以及勞工紓困貸款的利息補貼。"],["洪部長申翰：我們算了一下，三年多來應該有400億。"],["劉委員建國：400億左右對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，三年多。"],["劉委員建國：那這一次要應變關稅大戰的情況之下，行政院同意你在勞動部的範疇裡面編列了多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：現在因為這一次關稅的因應時間長短不一定，我們目前先匡150億元，如果需要的話也可以再增加。"],["劉委員建國：如果需要的話也可以再增加？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：絕對需要，也一定要增加。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以部長可能要積極爭取，未雨綢繆，因為不清楚到底要打多久的關稅戰。而且像川普這樣的一個政治狂人，你跟他講零關稅，他請你要再多拿一些錢來談，甚至他從這個領域裡面又會跑到另外一個領域。我們下個禮拜要特別跟蘇召委討論，要不要請衛環委員會針對相關藥品的進出口問題開會，因為川普點到了這一項。所以全世界皆因川普而要趕快做積極的因應跟佈局，還有長治久安的規劃。尤其在勞工市場環境裡面，可能衝擊更多。我想這邊列舉的應該部長都很清楚，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：出口最主要的產業是，電子、資訊、鋼鐵、金屬、機械、汽車零組件、建材、家電；農業部分還有蝴蝶蘭、毛豆、茶葉以及吳郭魚、鬼頭刀、鱸魚等等。全部都是勞力密集的中小企業，包含傳統製造業和農業。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以可能很快會遇到很多無薪假和被裁員的狀況，其影響絕對不亞於疫情期間所受到的衝擊，而且來的速度會更快，維持多久的時間不清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會把財源都做好準備。"],["劉委員建國：OK，你們之前有推出一個10萬元的低利率貸款方案對不對？沒有多少，只有10萬塊而已，但是要還，只不過免利息。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：推這個案子的時候，總共有幾個件數，你們還記得嗎？這10萬塊對一個艱苦的勞工家庭是很好用的，而且還免利息。申貸的件數總共幾案，你記得嗎？"],["謝司長倩蒨：跟委員報告，在109年跟110年辦了勞工紓困貸款，總共核定的件數有一百五十九萬多件。"],["劉委員建國：一百五十九萬多件？"],["謝司長倩蒨：對。"],["劉委員建國：其實受理過程耗費很多時間，勞動部花了多少錢補貼這些利息？"],["謝司長倩蒨：這兩年我們補貼勞工貸款第一年的利息，包括後來央行升息，我們大概花費兩次貸款，總共花費30億元。"],["劉委員建國：所以光利息補貼，這兩年我們就貼了30億？"],["謝司長倩蒨：對。"],["劉委員建國：等於占現在關稅的應因措施，150億元的五分之一，對不對？"],["謝司長倩蒨：利息補貼。"],["劉委員建國：部長，光利息補貼就占了這次應對關稅大戰150億元的五分之一額度，對不對？這次你什麼時候啟動？啟動時機有評估過了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：目前看起來，我們現在只是先準備相關的政策工具，有些部分會先實施，有些部分後實施，比方說像大家現在比較關心的減班休息部分，我們會優先實施。像剛才在講的勞工紓困貸款，這是當時在疫情比較中段的時候會推出的作法。所以我們目前也是在盤點，不同的政策工具上路的時機點。"],["劉委員建國：我只是提醒部長，這一次的範疇裡面，很多都是屬於密集勞力的相關產業，包含農業跟傳統製造業，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：這次衝擊來的速度可能會更快，150億元真的會不夠用。所以我要請部長，是不是能用很快的速度，一週內來評估？因為川普不用一週就變化萬千，大家要跟著一起應變，不然到時候會連變都來不及變……"],["洪部長申翰：我們會再盤點一下經費的可能。"],["劉委員建國：好，盤整勞工受到衝擊的影響評估，還有可能需要的實際經費，同時研擬啟動勞工紓困貸款利息補貼的時機，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝召委，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員，謝謝部長。廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159999","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159999","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce8af298b2e71b1963a71339fff88aef012eb6e21b32d8c6bee459cee5de9a21f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:43:40 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有請我們鄭部長跟鄭署長 謝謝好 有請鄭部長 鄭署長委員好"},{"start":17.06,"end":43.698,"text":"部長好 署長好那我想剛剛很多委員都在關心這個國際賽事那當然這個部分我們還是希望教育部跟體育署要加油啦畢竟這個是我們這個國際外交很重要的一個環節那不過這個本席在這個今天的質詢的重點還是放在我們這個校園的一個安心學習讓小朋友有一個放心奔跑的一個校園環境的這個議題上面那部長"},{"start":44.198,"end":54.25,"text":"我想請您再看看我們左手邊這張照片去年10月的時候我在教育委員會我諮詢過這個是我們東港一個東隆國小"},{"start":57.741,"end":73.656,"text":"部長你認為這個跑道適合學生放心奔跑嗎我想這要立即改善,這沒有什麼任何討論的空間大概就是立即改善部長你去年有這樣給我答應,但是到目前為止這個案子還沒有核定我想那是我的輸入,我們回去馬上來處理"},{"start":75.778,"end":91.633,"text":"我想部長這樣的一個運動場域,我想不只小朋友會受傷,甚至很多我們的長輩放學之後在學校運動的時候,可能這樣都把自己撞下去了,我想這個值得我們去檢討一下。我們馬上來改善,我們馬上來協調。"},{"start":92.694,"end":108.341,"text":"那當然部長我知道今年因為我們這個在國民黨跟民眾黨這個總預算把我們打到明明貓貓可能我們在預算的一個處理上面是真的很這樣啦我想各部會都面臨很大的壓力但是我相信這個讓學生有一個"},{"start":109.361,"end":126.549,"text":"好的一個學習的場域這個尤其是我們很多的學校的一個運動場所我請博定當過我們國小的老師當過大學的校長應該不容許這種現象發生啊所以這部分還是請我們趕快來核定趕快來處理好博定這個我都答應不"},{"start":127.589,"end":144.082,"text":"我們會後馬上來這個處理好那我想不只有東龍國小屏東縣還有很多學校都面臨這個狀況這請部長給屏東縣的這個教育的環境給予最大力的支持那另外除了跑道之外我想本期還是要提出"},{"start":144.662,"end":165.237,"text":"我們屏東縣目前盤點出來急需整修的老舊廁所總共有112間需要的經費有4.2億這部分我想我在委員會也有多次提出質詢那部長這部分是不是可以一樣給屏東縣政府最大力的一個支持因為我們的這個財政有限不然這是不是可以我們來倒上講一下"},{"start":171.138,"end":190.411,"text":"謝謝委員部長有爭取行政院專款81今年執行往後兩三年內會把它全部都改善完全部都會納進來嗎我們要全部盡量把它處理好我想這個也是我們學童上廁所很重要的一個環節SUNNY能不能完成"},{"start":191.838,"end":214.634,"text":"跟我們屏東縣政府一起努力 好 我們現在行政院這邊已經先給我們專管八十億了好 那麻煩再優先處理那另外部長我想這個我上次質詢也有質詢到這個充實行政人力這個計畫那因為過去我們在所謂的一個行政助理的部分是補助七班到二十班這個核定一個行政人力那也是減輕了我們這個"},{"start":216.495,"end":243.482,"text":"老師對於這個行政業務的一個負擔那但是我想我們現在有很多的偏鄉的學校其實都是落在六班七班以下有的甚至只有六班那一樣要負擔這樣一個行政的一個文書作業的能力那是不是可以針對這樣的一個行政能力的部分能夠放寬讓所有這個七班以下的學校能夠有能力能夠來聘請一個行政主委這部分部長是不是可以來幫忙"},{"start":245.226,"end":272.949,"text":"現在委員關心這個有比較小型的學校特別在這個偏鄉的這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來比較區域性的來看怎麼樣去給予對 柏均我站在你那一層油漢如果說沒辦法一校一個那是不是可以周邊兩三個學校是 我的意思就是我們用一個比較區域性的來考量來巡迴的方式來做處理這個人力上的必須要的一些配置跟支持柏均這樣這一個裡面給我一個大砲好嗎"},{"start":275.029,"end":288.054,"text":"好那最後我想部長也很關心我們偏鄉的一個教育你也來變動幾個座部長我們今年有針對一個偏鄉的一個專班的設置那不曉得目前的進度為何請部長答覆"},{"start":295.417,"end":308.328,"text":"謝謝委員關心那我們師資司來報告那我們對於這個偏鄉師資的這個缺乏部長也非常的關心那我們在這個學年度我們師培大學呢小教的部分會開設10個班達450人那麼我們中教呢有6個領域9專長那也會來開設90人次的這個需求那我們會持續來滾動檢討"},{"start":318.277,"end":337.78,"text":"那這樣子的一個措施,對於我們過去這個偏鄉的一個失智的不足,甚至很多的代課老師一直課都課不到,有沒有什麼正面的注意?是,我們這些人數都有跟國教署還有地方政府來做調查,那也是依據地方政府推薦,已經在偏鄉服務一段時間。"},{"start":338.08,"end":350.567,"text":"有一个门槛吗对有一个服务年限那相信对于稳定他们在偏乡的任教还有未来帮助他们取得这个正式老师投入职场奉献这个心力是很有帮助的"},{"start":351.718,"end":367.791,"text":"我想這個穩定的這個教師的人力也是我們才是我們學生要不然每個學生都會反應說怎麼每個學期過了一個學年之後老師又換人了這個師生之間的感情也不會長久啦也不好對學生的學習不利那部長這個政策會不會持續進行"},{"start":369.241,"end":383.96,"text":"跟我們報告確實我們也看到偏鄉在整個正式施支所以我們希望既然有部分的老師他對偏鄉的教育他是願意奉獻的所以我們現在包含老師怎麼樣去取得合格教師整個那個過程"},{"start":385.362,"end":401.56,"text":"怎麼樣用線上學習或者利用寒暑假而不是讓他變成要進修是利用晚上既然他是偏鄉山上他不可能白正常的一個上班日下來嘛所以我們這邊我也責成這一個我們師醫師要全面來"},{"start":404.283,"end":421.961,"text":"檢討我想結合這一個線上的學習包含寒暑假的這一些我想我們都在朝這方面來做許多的一切我剛好就是要問你這個問題因為像我們屏東有有偏鄉有園鄉有離島和村半島你要叫這個老師移到最高要怎麼去"},{"start":423.182,"end":445.052,"text":"這個我們確實已經在改善所以是不是可以請屏東大學他們都有師培的相關的專業能不能輔導到我們甚至小琉球一樣或恆春半島甚至園鄉去授課有沒有這樣一個機制可以做處理也跟委員報告像今年就說今年九月開始我們這個屏東大學就有特別為這個偏鄉等於說小學的師資裡面我們有專班"},{"start":446.953,"end":471.207,"text":"對,這個要長久來做啦,不是企辦了又沒有了我覺得這樣對我們偏鄉的老師相當的不公平我想事辦是因為我希望他走得快一點,因為我們已經看到問題所以不是要再去改法令,改到很多,我們事實上是反不及己對,也讓我們偏鄉的老師感受得到我們的想法跟委員所關心的是一致的柏林,這個我們一起來努力啦希望能夠讓偏鄉的這個教育的環境變得更好啦,謝謝好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":942,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時43分）謝謝主席！有請我們鄭部長跟鄭署長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請鄭部長、鄭署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好，署長好。剛剛很多委員都在關心國際賽事，對這個部分，當然我們還是希望教育部跟體育署要加油，畢竟這個是我們國際外交很重要的一個環節。不過本席今天質詢的重點還是放在我們校園的安心學習，讓小朋友有一個放心奔跑的校園環境這個議題上面。請部長看看螢幕上左手邊這張照片，部長有印象嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有。"],["徐委員富癸：去年10月15號，我在教育委員會質詢過，這個是我們東港的東隆國小，部長你認為這個跑道適合學生放心奔跑嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這沒有任何討論的空間，就是要立即改善。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，你去年有答應我，但到目前為止，這個案子還沒有核定。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想那是我的疏漏，我們回去馬上來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：這樣的一個運動場域，我想不只小朋友會受傷，甚至連我們很多的長輩，在放學之後到學校運動時看到這種狀況，可能眼淚都要流下來了，我想這個值得我們去檢討一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們馬上來改善，馬上來協助。"],["徐委員富癸：當然我知道今年國民黨跟民眾黨在總預算上把我們荼毒得「糜糜卯卯」，可能在預算的處理上面是真的很緊，各部會都面臨很大的壓力，但是我相信讓學生有一個好的學習場域……尤其是我們很多學校的運動場所，我想部長當過我們國小的老師也當過大學的校長，應該不容許這種現象發生，所以這部分還是請趕快來核定，趕快來處理。部長，這個有辦法答應嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會後馬上來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：我想不止是東隆國小，屏東縣還有很多學校都面臨這個狀況，請部長對屏東縣的教育環境給予最大力的支持。另外，除了跑道之外，本席還要提出的是我們屏東縣目前盤點出來急需整修的老舊廁所總共有112間，需要的經費為4.2億元，這部分我在委員會也曾多次提出質詢，部長，這部分是不是可以同樣給屏東縣政府最大力的支持？因為我們的財政有限，部長對此是不是可以幫忙一下？"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員，部長有爭取行政院專款80億元，今年執行，往後兩、三年內會把它全部都改善完。"],["徐委員富癸：全部都會納進來嗎？"],["彭署長富源：我們儘量把它處理了。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這也是我們學童上廁所很重要的一個環節，3年內能不能完成？"],["彭署長富源：跟屏東縣政府一起努力，現在行政院這邊已經先給我們專款80億元了。"],["徐委員富癸：好，那就麻煩優先處理。另外，我上次質詢時也有提到充實行政人力這個計畫，因為過去我們在行政助理部分，是7班到20班就核定補助一個行政人力，也的確減輕了老師在行政業務上的負擔，但是現在有很多偏鄉學校的班級數其實都落在7班以下，有的甚至只有6班，卻一樣要負擔行政文書作業的工作，針對行政人力的部分，是不是可以放寬，讓所有7班以下的學校也有能力聘請一個行政助理？這部分部長是不是可以來幫忙？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心這些比較小型的學校，特別是在偏鄉的這個部分，我們比較區域性的來看看怎麼樣可以協助。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我知道你們的預算有限，如果沒辦法一校一個，那是不是可以周邊兩、三個學校共請一個，以巡迴的方式來做處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：我的意思就是我們用一個比較區域性的方式來考量人力上必須要的一些配置跟支持。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，一個月內給我一個答復，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["徐委員富癸：最後要說的是，我想部長也很關心我們偏鄉的教育，你也來過屏東好幾次，我們今年有針對偏鄉設置專班，不曉得目前的進度為何？請部長答復。"],["武司長曉霞：謝謝委員關心，師資司報告如下，對於偏鄉師資的缺乏，部長也非常的關心，在這個學年度，我們師培大學小教的部分會開設10個班，達450人，中教有6個領域9專長，也會來開設90人次的需求，我們會持續來滾動檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：這樣的一個措施，對於過去偏鄉師資的不足，甚至很多的代課老師一直考都考不上這部分，有沒有什麼正面的助益？"],["武司長曉霞：這些人數我們都有跟國教署還有地方政府做過調查，也是依據地方政府推薦已經在偏鄉服務一段時間的老師……"],["徐委員富癸：有一個門檻嗎？"],["武司長曉霞：對，有一個服務年限的門檻，相信對於穩定他們在偏鄉的任教還有未來幫助他們取得正式老師資格，投入職場來奉獻心力是很有幫助的。"],["徐委員富癸：穩定的教師人力才是我們學生需要的，否則每個學生都會反映說怎麼每個學期或過了一個學年後老師又換人了，這樣子的話，師生之間的感情不會長久，對學生的學習也不利。請問部長，這個政策會不會持續進行？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我們也看到偏鄉在整個正式師資方面的問題，既然有部分老師對偏鄉的教育是願意奉獻的，所以現在在如何取得合格教師的整個過程，包含怎麼樣用線上學習或者利用寒暑假，而不是讓他變成利用晚上進修，因為既然他是偏鄉教師，是在山上，他就不可能在正常的上班日下來，所以這邊我也責成我們師藝司要全面來檢討，我想結合線上學習包含寒暑假這些，我們都在朝這方面做許多的改善。"],["徐委員富癸：我剛好就是要問部長這個問題，因為像我們屏東有偏鄉、有原鄉、有離島、有恆春半島，你要這些老師週一到週五去上課，這樣要怎麼去進修？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們確實已經在改善。"],["徐委員富癸：像屏東大學他們都有師培的相關專業，是不是可以到我們小琉球也好，或恆春半島也好，甚至原鄉去授課？有沒有這樣一個機制可以做處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，今年9月開始，屏東大學就有特別為偏鄉小學的師資設置專班。"],["徐委員富癸：這個要長久來做，不是試辦之後就沒了，我覺得這樣對我們偏鄉的老師相當的不公平。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想試辦是因為希望它走得快一點，因為我們已經看到問題，所以不是要再去改法令，改到很多，事實上這樣是緩不濟急，我們的想法跟委員關心的是一致的。"],["徐委員富癸：也要讓我們偏鄉的老師感受得到，部長，這個我們一起來努力，希望能夠讓偏鄉的教育環境變得更好。謝謝！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員，部長請回。","我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1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- 12:43:33","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T12:34:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T12:43:33+08:00","duration":534,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.062843750000003,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.80409375,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.27596875,"end":27.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.043468750000002,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.76221875,"end":46.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.98159375,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.90534375,"end":83.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.66346875,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.68034375,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.11846875,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.93034375,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.38534375,"end":119.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.18534375,"end":124.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.73721875000001,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.86784375,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.98159375,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.07409375,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.64346875,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.57534375,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.22471875000002,"end":139.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.43096875,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.56159375000001,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.41346875000002,"end":145.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.71721875,"end":145.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.71284375000002,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.40471875,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.42534375,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.41221875000002,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.64846875,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.27284375000002,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.74534375000002,"end":156.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.69034375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.60971875,"end":159.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.33096875,"end":159.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.98909375000002,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.18221875,"end":173.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.72534375,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.87721875,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.23159375,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.17659375000002,"end":176.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.11721875,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.13409375,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.23534375,"end":177.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.58534375000002,"end":180.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.03221875,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.49159375000002,"end":209.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.64784375000002,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.15784375,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.41909375,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.68784375,"end":237.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.78284375,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.69784375,"end":243.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.41909375,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.95471875,"end":256.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.88534375,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.34909375,"end":261.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.54284375000003,"end":262.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.19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洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在不好意思 不好意思 我一直看那邊 不好意思 不好意思快點許富奎"},{"start":21.074,"end":35.477,"text":"請主席記得雖然你是統一私密我是兄弟相迷但是我們兩個還是可以在關心教育文化體育的部分好好努力來謝謝請鄭部長跟鄭署長好有請部長署長來部長署長"},{"start":47.967,"end":66.474,"text":"很嚴肅的還是要講一下紐西蘭女足來台灣到最後沒有辦法舉辦比賽的這個事情所有球迷都沒有辦法接受我知道早上你已經講了丟臉兩個字但我覺得還是要釐清幾個部分跟真相以及事實還原記取這個教訓因為這真的已經是國際笑話了"},{"start":68.996,"end":82.831,"text":"聽說連紐西蘭他們球員那邊也都有來關心說為什麼台灣那麼先進的國家為什麼會到最後連一個場地都沒有辦法打我想請教一下到底這一個比賽什麼時候確定我們邀請紐西蘭女足來辦"},{"start":83.712,"end":108.019,"text":"抱怨這部分是紐西蘭主動來邀請希望來我們我國來什麼時候確定的是在11月的時候確認去年11月對去年11月10月邀請11月確認去年11月嗎對所以有大半年的時間那那個時候場地就已經確定是在南梓了嗎是那時候南梓的場地有沒有要求說要符合相關的標準"},{"start":108.667,"end":127.98,"text":"包委員在兩國的有這種小型的積分賽只要兩國同意就可以雖然它不是A級的場地但是是可以使用的但這是睽違五年的國際女子足球隊的一個邀請賽是包委員就是當時什麼時候開始售票"},{"start":130.797,"end":149.945,"text":"幫委員這部分我沒有掌握到,但是他們對於A級的場地當時的確...3月21號開始售票那什麼時候才知道這個場地真的非常不堪?4月1號他們有...他們是誰?就是紐西蘭跟竹寫他們有這樣子的一個疑慮出現,那4月5號確認無法進行4月1號?4月6號才確認"},{"start":157.679,"end":183.186,"text":"在這個過程裡面 署長部長那我們自己的國家的女足足球隊什麼時候知道這個場地不能使用包委員這個期間女足的國家隊總教練他其實有參與討論有嗎有確定嗎選手沒有你說這個期間是指什麼時候就是他4月1號開始陸陸續續4月1號開始署長部長這就是我想表達的重點"},{"start":184.594,"end":208.406,"text":"人家紐西蘭女足你還可以推說她們遠在紐西蘭遠在其他國家不清楚說我們男子球場的一個狀況3月21號給她開賣球票去年11月同意但我們男子的足球狀況到底怎麼樣不清楚那但是我們自己國家的女子足球隊也是一樣在4月1號跟紐西蘭女足同一天時間知道說這個場地是這個樣子不覺得很離譜嗎"},{"start":214.589,"end":238.935,"text":"如果說我們今天保護球員是兩方的責任不是紐西蘭女足排名比較前面就比較要保護台灣女足一樣要保護那台灣女足為什麼沒有事先不管是足協不管相關單位我們人都已經在台灣那為什麼沒有事先讓台灣女足的球員教練去了解到這個場地能不能拿出來用"},{"start":241.752,"end":265.812,"text":"否則等到讓外國人不要說外國月亮比較圓但是讓外國人來跟我們自己的球員教練代表一起去看場地的時候才發覺說你們要拿這個場地給我們用不能使用沒有辦法踢對於紐西蘭女足當然他們這是國際性的問題但對我們台灣女足呢情何以堪"},{"start":270.313,"end":294.238,"text":"如果沒有紐西蘭女足的堅持我請教一個比較不客氣的如果沒有紐西蘭女足的堅持說他們拒絕比賽那會不會我們就趕鴨子上架台灣女足的聲音就被淹沒了然後到最後如果今天是換作是另外一個球隊另外一個比賽不是國際性的 是國內性的是不是台灣女足有可能就被趕鴨子上架因為3月21號已經賣票啦"},{"start":296.212,"end":301.872,"text":"我在3月21號已經賣票了我沒有讓我們自己女足的球員知道你要在什麼場地比賽"},{"start":303.424,"end":330.797,"text":"那結果賣票了 主辦單位到時候就講說已經賣票了 沒辦法了那不然你們就踢吧跟委員報告 我想我的態度心情是跟委員一樣的這就沒有任何理由體育署內部包含在對這個單項協會怎麼樣去輔導監督責無旁貸我想我們一定 這個事情一定會深切檢討而且不許再有相同的這個事件再發生"},{"start":331.337,"end":346.112,"text":"部長,你講的話很衰愧,但是具體的作為是什麼?體育署補助足協,即便體育署有講是說這一次的這個國際高警賽有沒有補助經費?沒有補助經費,但是體育署補助足協一年多少錢?"},{"start":347.472,"end":376.133,"text":"巴爾園去年是一億多不過大部分是在培訓跟一億一千多萬嘛沒有大部分都在培訓啦本席看了你相關資料有聯賽有培訓計畫有針對後續國際賽項目的相關的一些培訓計畫但是這些計畫裡面說實在話這也是一環啊以賽養賽邀請賽這也是一環這也是培訓也是為女足的一個發展來努力啊那你現在"},{"start":377.386,"end":383.212,"text":"有任何的究責嗎足協明年的補助一樣一億多雙雙領 雙手拿包委員這部分我們會審慎評估啦關於選手的權益部分我們當然還是要維繫但是在賽事的部分一次的這樣的狀況毀掉我們過去努力了多久的時間"},{"start":399.417,"end":410.507,"text":"我們一直講是說從2017年六年足球計畫然後開始這樣子推台灣要發展足球排名沒有往前就算了現在還讓國際知道說我們的場地也不能用最後也不要只是一味苛責體育署今年會掛牌變運動部"},{"start":424.721,"end":442.217,"text":"那相關有沒有全責單位或者是針對未來我們如果說台灣辦國際型的比賽專責的人員專責的科士來協助因為我覺得在這件事情上面場地沒有掌握好足協難辭其咎他連讓教練連讓球員去參與看場地都沒有"},{"start":446.861,"end":466.567,"text":"所以才會發生那麼離譜的事情如果說之前就有在開賣門票之前就先邀請場地球員跟教練來看說不定那個時候就動掉了啊那未來運動部或是現在體育署針對國際型賽事我們有沒有同仁可以協助或者是說針對這個部分來怎麼樣"},{"start":469.193,"end":482.888,"text":"避免這樣的狀況是 我們分兩個層面一個是檢核表當然是我們的未來的國際事務司以及行政保人運動產業發展中心的社會輔導處都會來專責做這件事情那委員的意見我們也收到了我們會針對這部分來加強輔導他們"},{"start":485.051,"end":509.254,"text":"那在場地的部分我們當然也希望能夠增加更多的A級的場館那我們也在努力當中當然 但是我必須請容本席再提醒一下男子足球場當時我們教育部體育署補助計畫補助經費的時候其實就是朝可以國際賽事使用後來是開工之後變更設計才沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":510.848,"end":534.41,"text":"那不管怎麼樣本席現在看要求的真的還是在這件事情上面我們大家都痛心未來除了剛剛部長署長承諾不能發聲以外我們要怎麼做讓它真的不能發聲我覺得這才是本席今天提出來的目的以上謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員 不好意思歡迎回娘家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":887,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時35分）請主席記得，雖然你是統一獅迷、我是兄弟象迷，但是我們兩個還是可以在關心教育、文化、體育的部分好好努力，謝謝。","請鄭部長和鄭署長。"],["主席：好，有請部長、署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、署長，很嚴肅地，我還是要講一下紐西蘭女足來臺灣，到最後卻沒辦法舉辦比賽這個事情，所有球迷都沒有辦法接受。我知道早上你已經講了「丟臉」兩個字，但我覺得還是要釐清幾個部分跟真相及事實，還原、記取這個教訓，因為這真的已經是國際笑話了。聽說連紐西蘭球員他們那邊也都有來關心，為什麼臺灣、那麼先進的國家到最後會連一個場地都沒有辦法打？我想請教一下，到底這個比賽什麼時候確定邀請紐西蘭女足來辦？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分是紐西蘭主動邀請，希望來我國比賽……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候確定的？"],["鄭署長世忠：是在11月的時候確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：去年11月？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：去年11月？"],["鄭署長世忠：10月邀請，11月確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：去年11月嘛！所以有大半年時間。那麼那個時候場地就已經確定是在楠梓了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那時候對於楠梓的場地，你們有沒有要求要符合相關標準？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這種小型積分賽中，只要兩國同意就可以，雖然不是A級場地，但是是可以使用的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但這是睽違5年的國際女子足球隊邀請賽欸！"],["鄭署長世忠：是，報告委員，當時他們……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候開始售票？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我沒有掌握到，但是他們對於A級的場地，當時的確是……"],["洪委員孟楷：3月21號就開始售票了。什麼時候才知道這個場地真的非常不堪？"],["鄭署長世忠：4月1號他們有……"],["洪委員孟楷：「他們」是誰？"],["鄭署長世忠：就是紐西蘭跟足協他們有這樣子的一個疑慮出現，4月5號確認無法進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：4月1號？"],["鄭署長世忠：4月6號才確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：請問署長、部長，在這個過程裡面，我們自己的國家女足足球隊什麼時候知道這個場地不能使用？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個期間，女足的國家隊總教練他其實有參與討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有確定嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：選手沒有，總教練有。"],["洪委員孟楷：你說「這個期間」是指什麼時候？"],["鄭署長世忠：就是他4月1號開始陸陸續續看球場的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：4月1號開始的嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長、部長，這就是我想表達的重點，對紐西蘭女足，你還可以推說他們遠在紐西蘭，遠在其他國家，不清楚我們楠梓球場的狀況，但這是去年11月同意的，從3月21號就開賣球票，我們楠梓足球場狀況到底怎麼樣不清楚，但是我們自己國家的女子足球隊跟紐西蘭女足同樣在4月1號那一天才知道這個場地是這個樣子，不覺得很離譜嗎？要知道保護球員是兩方的責任，不是紐西蘭女足排名比較前面就比較要保護，臺灣女足一樣要保護耶！不管是足協還是相關單位，我們人都在臺灣，為什麼沒有事先讓臺灣女足的球員、教練去瞭解這個場地能不能拿出來用？我們不要說外國的月亮比較圓，但是等到外國人來跟我們自己的球員、教練代表一起去看場地的時候，才發覺「啊！你們要拿這個場地給我們用？」並表示「不能使用」、「沒有辦法踢」，對於紐西蘭女足來說，當然這是國際性的問題，但對我們臺灣女足咧？情何以堪！","我請教一個比較不客氣的問題，如果沒有紐西蘭女足堅持說他們拒絕比賽，那會不會我們就趕鴨子上架，臺灣女足的聲音就被淹沒了？如果今天換作是另外一個球隊，另外一個不是國際性而是國內性的比賽，臺灣女足是不是有可能就被趕鴨子上架？因為3月21號已經賣票啦！且沒有讓我們自己女足的球員知道要在什麼場地比賽，主辦單位到時候就講說已經賣票了，沒辦法了，不然你們就踢吧！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我想我的態度心情是跟委員一樣的，就是沒有任何理由，體育署內部包含對這個單項協會怎麼樣去輔導監督，責無旁貸，我們對這個事情一定會深切檢討，而且不許再有相同的事件發生。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講的話很「媠氣」，但是具體的作為是什麼？體育署補助足協，即便體育署有講這一次的這個國際邀請賽沒有補助經費，但是體育署補助足協一年多少錢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，去年是一億多元，不過大部分是在培訓跟聯賽。"],["洪委員孟楷：一億一千多萬元嘛，沒有大部分都用在培訓啦！本席看了你們的相關資料，有聯賽、培訓計畫、有針對後續國際賽項目的相關培訓計畫，但是這些計畫說實在的也是一環啊！以賽養賽，邀請賽也是一環，也是培訓，也是為女足的發展來努力。請問你們現在有任何的究責嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，當然一個是經費……"],["洪委員孟楷：足協明年的補助一樣是一億多元，爽爽領！爽爽拿！"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們會審慎評估，關於選手的權益部分，我們當然還是要維繫，但是在賽事的部分，我們會……"],["洪委員孟楷：一次這樣的狀況毀掉我們過去多久時間的努力，我們一直在講從2017年開始推動六年足球計畫，臺灣要發展足球，排名沒有往前就算了，現在還讓國際知道說我們的場地也不能用！最後要說的是，也不要只是一味苛責，體育署今年會掛牌升格為運動部，請問有沒有相關的權責單位，針對未來如果臺灣辦國際型比賽時，有專責的人員、專責的科室來協助？因為我覺得在這件事情上面，場地沒有掌握好的部分足協難辭其咎！它連讓教練、讓球員去參與看場地都沒有，所以才會發生那麼離譜的事情，如果在開賣門票之前就先邀請球員跟教練來看場地，說不定那個時候就停住了，未來的運動部或現在的體育署針對國際型賽事，你們有沒有同仁可以協助？或者是說針對這個部分，怎麼樣避免這樣的狀況再度發生？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們分兩個層面，一個是檢核表，再來是我們未來的國際事務司以及行政法人運動產業發展中心的賽會輔導處都會來專責做這件事情。委員的意見我們也收到了，會針對這部分來加強輔導。在場地的部分，我們當然也希望能夠增加更多的A級場館，我們也在努力當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：那是當然，但是必須容本席再提醒一下，楠梓足球場的部分，當時教育部體育署補助計畫、補助經費的時候，其實就是朝可以供國際賽事使用的方向規劃的，後來是開工之後變更設計才沒有的，但不管怎麼樣，本席現在要求的還是一樣，在這件事情上面我們大家都痛心，未來除了剛剛部長、署長承諾不能再發生以外，我們要怎麼做讓它真的不能再發生？這才是本席今天提出來的目的。以上，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，歡迎回娘家。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝，會常回來。"],["主席：接下來我們請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce1ca978a26086ca63a9dd72f8e909e2232eb6e21b32d8c6bec932d0b88b6ae5ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:23:38 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謝謝那這個計畫主要的績效指標你剛剛講可以再講一次嗎"},{"start":154.598,"end":155.079,"text":"主要當時主要的精進作為是"},{"start":174.707,"end":202.407,"text":"包委員當然除了強力檢查之外我們透過部會合作還有營造團體一些來做促進因為包括工程跟民間工程都有大量的工作在進行所以我們不是只有勞檢在做促進的還有希望所有的那個資源都有有很多的這個方式並行嘛那我再請教就是說那署長回想這個回頭這樣回想檢討那為什麼沒有達標原因是什麼"},{"start":204.795,"end":229.476,"text":"報告委員我們發現就是第一個是承攬管理是還是沒有做落實特別是有些業主在交付給營造廠作業的時候業主負安全責任也相對偏低所以我們其實在去年就開始著手希望修職安法把有關營造業相關的困難能夠透過法治正面來做機制上的處置跟處理那這個有關修法的部分也要請委員及各界來給我們支持跟指導"},{"start":229.616,"end":241.685,"text":"我想有效的有用的我們都會支持那你覺得說這個這個沒有達標的這些原因有沒有跟部署的表現不好或者你自己個人的領導統一有問題有關係呢"},{"start":245.758,"end":267.693,"text":"縣委員我們設定目標是大家往前前進沒有達到目標當然是首長負一定的責任但是我還非常肯定我們各檢察機構的同仁為了要營造減災我們也不會讓到每個檢察機構他有降低的目標值當然有些地方的檢察機構包括比如說某些縣政府檢察機構沒有達標但我們也請各檢察機構的首長做進一步的檢討"},{"start":270.195,"end":286.716,"text":"我問這個問題我沒有責備的意識啊我們就是提出來檢討嘛有些問題可能所以我覺得重大的政策目標假如沒有達標我們是整個勞動部尤其是政務的首長我們都必須要一起來檢討"},{"start":288.078,"end":305.587,"text":"所以事務的沒有關係我認為政務的首長的責任也很大我是這樣子在思考自己的責任我有去檢視職安署的這個宣導網頁啦其實有很多的海報資料提供的事業單位你給它索取或下載"},{"start":307.087,"end":332.158,"text":"這個資料其實也是都是做得不錯啦那可是呢就是說資料是很不錯但是還是有這麼多的勞工在墜落那部長你從一個客觀不是職安衛領域的部長你覺得這樣的原因或者是說換一個角度來看當你不清楚狀況或原因的時候你當下你會想要知道什麼樣的資料或訊息"},{"start":334.774,"end":352.994,"text":"當然因為我上任以後其實對於這個罪惡的問題其實我非常非常關注所以當然我們其實也跟治安署幾度的討論怎麼樣精進的原因也包括接下來會提治安法的修法可是也不只治安法的修法也包括這裡面其實有些做法上我覺得法尊上面我們必須要講"},{"start":353.274,"end":379.298,"text":"我覺得你沒有回答到我問題就是我剛剛問的是說你不清楚當狀況跟原因那個當下因為事件發生嘛你最想要知道的這個資料或訊息是什麼我想你不會去想要修法的問題啦不會立刻馬上要看修法嗎我想這個比較接近的答案應該是說我們想要從這個職災調查報告上面去分析啦那"},{"start":380.158,"end":396.837,"text":"就是說有哪些真實發生事故的情況那是當初沒有設想到或者是說沒有落實的部分我們應該是會想要從這些調查報告去反省嘛去看看問題出在哪裡嘛而且就是說"},{"start":397.518,"end":421.957,"text":"這些資料應該是開放給外界都可以使用然後讓許多這個職安衛的這個專家都可以共同來診斷的問題才對嘛我不曉得部長有沒有同意好那可是呢你們號稱這個目前的職災資料有揭露公開我們看一下這個這個PowerPoint裡面的內容我認為是在這個虛擬故事敷衍了事"},{"start":422.577,"end":443.745,"text":"就是說如同這個簡報所揭露的我們來這個幫你們截圖來看你們自己問一下看一下這樣的資料是不是在部長當初您擔任立委的時候所要求的水準這樣的資料公布公開有什麼差別呢那到底這樣的資料我們能夠從這些資料能夠得到什麼"},{"start":445.335,"end":471.149,"text":"好 我跟陳仁說明其實我到部以後其實我也跟治安署說過我們其實要非常非常善用資訊公開的這樣子的一個工具來讓我們很多的事業單位必須承擔更多的社會上面的責任跟期待所以如果在資訊公開上面其實有做得更好的地方我覺得就請陳仁即刻的來讓我們知道那我覺得能做的我們就趕快來進行"},{"start":471.889,"end":497.735,"text":"我想我肯定部長的態度啦就是說那我這樣聽就是說那在那部長的意思就是說那你願意要來全面公開這些資料嗎就是作為未來職債預防的參考當然在在有包括個資法等等相關的授權之下我覺得能夠公開的部分我自己的傾向是可以擴大公開所以這個是不夠的嗎很不足啊我們看不出就"},{"start":498.035,"end":526.765,"text":"沒有辦法從這些資訊裡面你只是講一個開放發生的地點然後死亡人數的檢查機構看這些要幹嘛呢能夠知道什麼呢對未來的預防沒有太大的幫助啊我覺得對公開上面的data set的細節我們可以討論對資訊的部分當然各自我們要盡到保密的責任那其他該公開的要公開那同樣的道理就是職災預防的措施我們還有這些職災地圖啦 職安卡的配套那你覺得說"},{"start":528.125,"end":540.918,"text":"我不曉得署長認為說這些措施的功效在哪裡啦因為事業單位跟勞工有因為你們這些設計然後就改變變得更安全嗎我剛剛是說署長"},{"start":545.143,"end":560.129,"text":"建委的指教任何的我們推出的政策測試我們都會在做進一步檢討那跟委員報告是這個重大災害公開網確實是為了讓全民能夠了解在哪個建案在哪個工地發生過什麼事故那不管是民眾要做"},{"start":561.509,"end":585.285,"text":"那個你也是講很多啦就是說有沒有這比較起來有跟沒有而已其實答案就是沒有啊因為我也知道你們做了很多的事情好啦今年我有特別在檢視老人所發布的這個113年的原住民的職災發生率我只是我在這邊我要很難過的講就是說已經連續下降4年了連續下降4年喔那"},{"start":586.437,"end":592.01,"text":"去年就再一次上升一下子又回到三年前的水準"},{"start":593.086,"end":617.928,"text":"你們不要跟我講說是因為災保法通過之後投保人數增加的原因千萬不要講這個理由那111年開始實施以來齁它起碼就是說畢竟它這樣實施以來就是連續下降兩年然後113年又一下子增加了7%總共增加了64件的重大質災那這個營造業的質災是最多的"},{"start":618.348,"end":641.816,"text":"所以這個部分部長你覺得有什麼可以評論或者要回應那個跟陳報告看到這樣子的趨勢的話我認為當然我覺得會需要重點的來做檢討跟原因的分析因為這等於是有點他是一個趨勢的反轉他不只是這個放緩而以而是趨勢的反轉所以我們當然我會來跟我們的這個"},{"start":645.397,"end":673.188,"text":"那针对这个数据背后的原因我们来做一个彻底的了解好 那千万不要有那种美化数据的情形发生不会计算有很多的方式那这个因为劳动部的精进作为应该是说建立已经是建立在不错的基础上希望可以做得更好才叫精进那这个全国劳工产业这个全产业的这个值在千人率113年是多少"},{"start":674.128,"end":683.816,"text":"署長有數據嗎你們現在有資料嗎這個數據也在網路上做公開我們113年的你什麼時候在網路上公開我們勞動網站就查得到現在是多少113年全部的數據是2.375所以這個是什麼時候出來"},{"start":701.742,"end":727.88,"text":"你們什麼時候公告的我是請教公告的時間我們的統計處就會定時的公告啊對啦 定時是什麼時候啦每個月都會update一次每個月update好 這個月是第一次公開嗎還是現在四月了所以你們是公...我的理解是我們勞保局統計出來的結果資料會給我們的統計處統計處會到我們官網做公告我知道啦 我是問你什麼時候嘛你如果現在不知道你待會跟我講沒關係啊"},{"start":730.482,"end":731.163,"text":"因為你們的5年職災減半的經營計畫"},{"start":750.286,"end":762.196,"text":"不曉得就是說跟之前那個113年的這個打擊年的差別有沒有在哪邊然後跟針對這個墜落的部分有沒有新的措施跟方案"},{"start":763.467,"end":788.208,"text":"有還是沒有 各位委員報告 去年最弱的打擊連沒有達到我們的預期目標 各界都跟我們在指教所以我也跟所有講的機構首長開過的原商會議我們當然今年是希望朝這個目標去努力除此之外我們修法也可以把那個營商會同業工會還有國土署他們的力量 建管力量一起拉進來 希望能夠把最弱的打擊能夠做得更好"},{"start":790.771,"end":814.19,"text":"所以你五年職災減半計劃是有還是沒有就是有沒有把罪漏含進來有 包委員我們是2030年職災減半計劃好了那個半秒鐘可以回答的問題可以你的老毛病又犯了那是這樣齁就是說也要提醒要問署長就是說職安署的這個組長跟科長等主管未來會不會有很多人要提早退休或離職啦"},{"start":816.171,"end":835.146,"text":"報告委員非常謝謝提這個問題因為我們確實看到我們的工作其實是壓力蠻大的同仁有些是為了要照顧家庭有些提早退休有些剩下規劃確實也有一些同仁是想要先離開那我都誠心希望同仁能夠繼續來跟我一起合作跟努力當然有幾個同仁就是為了照顧家庭"},{"start":835.706,"end":856.632,"text":"要提早退休那我就是講那麼多看起來就是真的那我只是要講說因為你現在講的理由都是從你嘴巴講出來的真實的理由可能大家會放在心裡面那我要提醒就是說這個預防職災這不是一個表面上政績的數字是"},{"start":857.412,"end":875.93,"text":"那麼而是每一個這個職在勞工家庭的血淚故事那反映的是這樣所以我希望勞動部真的可以好好的檢討那不管是萬年的主管去掌控了這些資料開放不夠的問題或者是求援兼裁判也有可能這樣的問題或者是讓內部機構劣幣驅逐良幣"},{"start":879.053,"end":902.519,"text":"好這樣的情形也是有發生所以這些都是直接間接去傷害到勞工然後讓這個職災會持續發生的一個兇手這些原因所以我想請部長好好的去想一想那怎麼做呢到底要怎麼做才能夠有顯著的改善所以你剛才講的這些這些狀況的發生我想我作為一個首長都有責任那我們會來思考這麼檢討謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時23分）謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想先請教一下，部會首長跟各單位的一級主管適時地輪調，這是一種常態嘛！透過這個輪調的機制，其實是可以減少積弊的發生，當然適時有新人的注入，新人有新氣象，有時候包袱也少一點。就像當初總統交付任務給部長的時候，這些任務可能有些是前任的部長們沒有辦法處理好的事情，所以我想請教部長，你覺得部長大概任期做幾年比較剛好？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我的任期是要讓社會或者依整體的政務來做評價，沒有一個既定……"],["陳委員瑩：我問這個其實沒有一個標準答案啦！我就單純地問您個人的看法，你如果不好意思講自己的話，那我就再請教，你覺得一級主管呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得都沒有標準答案。"],["陳委員瑩：都沒有標準答案？所以你覺得3年、5年、8年、10年還是20年？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得這個恐怕都不一定有標準答案。"],["陳委員瑩：有時候也是要看表現，對不對？你說沒有標準答案，因為每個人表現不一樣嘛！沒有關係，我們也可以透過一些數據來檢視，接下來我們就來檢視一下這位任期贏過各部會所有部長以及所有一級主管的職安署署長，我們來看一下。署長沒有來嗎？在後面，好，謝謝。","署長，在過去你們勞動部有一個營造業墜落打擊年的計畫，請問有沒有達標？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告，我們墜落打擊年的計畫在去年是希望降30%，確實沒有達標，我們只降到15%而已。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有達標？好，謝謝。這個計畫主要的績效指標，你可以再講一次嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員關心，營造業是臺灣的痛啦！所以我們希望去年營造業墜落能夠降30%，最後的數字是沒有降到30%，只降到百分之十幾而已，確實是沒有達到墜落減災的標準。"],["陳委員瑩：你們當時主要的精進作為是？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，除了強力檢查之外，我們透過部會合作還有營造團體的意見來做促進，因為包括公共工程跟民間工程都有大量的工作在進行，所以我們不是只有勞檢在做促進，希望所有基本的東西都要介入。"],["陳委員瑩：就是有很多的方式並行？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我再請教署長，回頭來回想檢討，為什麼沒有達標？原因是什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們發現第一個是承攬管理還是沒有做落實，特別是有一些業主在交付給營造廠作業的時候，業主負安全的責任也相對偏低，所以我們在去年就開始著手希望修職安法，把營造業相關的困難能夠透過法這邊來做機制上的處置與處理，有關修法的部分也要請委員及各界給我們支持跟指導，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：我想有效的、有用的我們都會支持。你覺得沒有達標的這些原因，跟部屬的表現不好或者你自己個人的領導統御有問題是不是有關係？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。我們設定目標大家就往前前進，沒有達到目標當然是首長要負一定的責任，但是我也非常肯定各檢查機構的同仁為了要營造減災，我們也breakdown 到每個檢查機構，它有一個降低的目標值，當然有些地方的檢查機構，比如說某些縣市政府的檢查機構沒有達標，我們也請各檢查機構的首長做進一步的檢討，目的是要減災啦！"],["陳委員瑩：我問這個問題沒有責備的意思，我們就是提出來檢討嘛！有些問題可能沒有思考到，或者是……"],["洪部長申翰：重大的政策目標假如沒有達標，我認為是整個勞動部，尤其是政務的首長，我們都必須要一起來檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：所以事務的沒有關係？"],["洪部長申翰：也不是，我認為政務首長的責任也很大，我都是這樣子在思考自己的責任。"],["陳委員瑩：我有去檢視職安署的宣導網頁，你們有很多的海報、資料提供給事業單位去索取或下載，這些資料其實也都做得不錯！資料是很不錯，但是還是有這麼多的勞工在墜落，部長，你從一個客觀不是職安衛領域的部長，你覺得這樣的原因，或者是換一個角度來看，當你不清楚狀況或原因的時候，當下你會想要知道什麼樣的資料或訊息？"],["洪部長申翰：我上任以後，對於墜落的問題其實我非常非常關注，所以我們也跟職安署幾度的討論怎麼樣精進的原因，包括接下來會提職安法的修法，可是也不只職安法的修法，包括這裡面有一些做法上，我覺得法遵上面我們必須要加強。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，我覺得你沒有回答到我的問題。我剛剛問的是說，你不清楚狀況跟原因，那個當下因為事件發生嘛！你最想要知道的資料或訊息是什麼？我想你不會去想到修法的問題啦！不會立刻、馬上要看修法嘛！我想比較接近……"],["洪部長申翰：你說我不清楚，可是我清楚啊！"],["陳委員瑩：比較接近的答案應該是說我們想要從這個職災調查報告上面去分析，有哪些真實發生事故的情況是當初沒有設想到或者是沒有落實的部分，我們應該會想要從這些調查報告去反省嘛！去看看問題出在哪裡嘛！而且這些資料應該開放給外界都可以使用，然後讓許多職安衛的專家都可以共同來診斷問題才對嘛！我不曉得部長有沒有同意？"],["洪部長申翰：是，同意。"],["陳委員瑩：好。你們號稱目前職災資料有揭露公開，我們看一下PowerPoint，裡面的內容我認為是在虛應故事、敷衍了事。就如同簡報所揭露的，我們幫你們截圖來看，你們自己看一下，這樣的資料是不是部長當初在擔任立委的時候所要求的水準？這樣的資料公不公開有什麼差別呢？到底我們能夠從這些資料得到什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：好，我跟陳委員說明，其實我到部以後，我也跟職安署說過，要非常非常善用資訊公開的工具，來讓我們很多的事業單位必須承擔更多社會上面的責任跟期待。所以如果在資訊公開上面可以做得更好的地方，請陳委員即刻地讓我們知道，我覺得能做的我們就趕快來進行。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我肯定部長的態度啦！那我這樣聽部長的意思，你願意全面來公開這些資料嗎？就是作為未來職災預防的參考？"],["洪部長申翰：當然在個資法等等等相關的授權之下，我覺得能夠公開的部分，我自己是傾向可以擴大公開。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個是不夠的，很不足啊！我們沒有辦法從這些資訊裡面……你只是講發生的地點，然後死亡人數、檢查機構，看這些要幹什麼？能夠知道什麼呢？對未來的預防沒有太大的幫助啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得對公開上面的dataset細節……"],["陳委員瑩：我們沒有要……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以討論。"],["陳委員瑩：對，資訊的部分，當然個資我們要盡到保密的責任，其他該公開的要公開。同樣的道理，職災預防的措施，我們還有這些職災地圖、職安卡的配套，我不曉得署長認為這些措施的功效在哪裡？那些事業單位跟勞工有因為你們這些設計然後就改變，變得更安全嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我自己……"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛是說署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員的指教。我們推出任何的政策措施都會再做進一步的檢討。跟委員報告，這個重大災害公開網確實是為了讓全民能夠瞭解在哪個建案、在哪個工地發生什麼樣的事故，不管是民眾要做採購或是我們都可以做……"],["陳委員瑩：你也是講很多，這個比較起來有跟沒有而已，其實答案就是沒有啊！因為我也知道你們做了很多的事情，好啦！今年我有特別檢視勞研所發布的113年原住民職災發生率，在這邊我要很難過地講，已經連續下降4年了，在去年再一次上升，一下子又回到3年前的水準！你們不要跟我講是因為災保法通過之後投保人數增加的原因，千萬不要講這個理由。111年開始實施以來，就是連續下降兩年，然後113年又一下子增加了7%，總共增加了64件重大職災，營造業的職災是最多的！所以這個部分，部長，你覺得有什麼可以評論或者要回應？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員報告，看到這樣子的趨勢，我覺得需要重點的來做檢討跟原因的分析，因為它是一個趨勢的反轉，它不只是放緩而已，而是趨勢的反轉。所以我會跟安研所針對這個數據背後的原因，我們會來做一個澈底的瞭解，也提出對策。"],["陳委員瑩：好，千萬不要有那種美化數據的情形發生。"],["洪部長申翰：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：因為計算有很多的方式啦！勞動部的精進作為應該是建立在不錯的基礎上，且希望可以做得更好才叫精進。這個全產業的職災千人率，113年是多少？署長有數據嗎？你們現在有資料嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：螢幕上面是不是？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，這個數據在網路上公告，113年的……"],["陳委員瑩：你什麼時候在網路上公告？"],["鄒署長子廉：我們的勞動網站就能查到，還能下載下來。"],["陳委員瑩：好，現在的數據是多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：113年的全部數據是2.375。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個數據是什麼時候出來的？你們什麼時候公告的？我是請教公告的時間。"],["鄒署長子廉：我們的統計處會定時公告。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！但定時是什麼時候？"],["鄒署長子廉：每個月都要update一次。"],["陳委員瑩：每個月update？"],["鄒署長子廉：對。"],["陳委員瑩：這個月是今年第一次公告嗎？現在是4月了，所以你們是已經update四次或三次？"],["鄒署長子廉：我的理解是，勞保局將統計結果的資料給統計處之後，再上官網公告。"],["陳委員瑩：我知道！我是問你什麼時候？如果現在不知道，你待會跟我講，沒關係。"],["鄒署長子廉：我確實是昨天晚上去看一下統計數字，再確定一次是2.375。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我就確認一下你們update和上網公告的時間。"],["鄒署長子廉：好。"],["陳委員瑩：你們的5年職災減半精進計畫，不曉得跟113年的營造業墜落打擊年有沒有差別？差別在哪裡？然後針對墜落的部分有沒有新的措施跟方案？有還是沒有？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，去年的墜落打擊年並沒有達到我們的預期目標，因此各界都有給我們指教。我也跟所有檢查機構首長開過研商會議，我們當然希望今年能朝這個目標來繼續努力……"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以有還是……"],["鄒署長子廉：除此之外，我們也會修法把營造業同業工會、內政部國土管理署，把它們建管的力量一起拉進來，希望能把墜落打擊做得更好。"],["陳委員瑩：所以5年職災減半計畫有沒有把墜落包含進來？"],["鄒署長子廉：有，我們的職災減半計畫是2030年……"],["陳委員瑩：明明半秒鐘就可以回答的問題，所以你的老毛病又犯了。我要提醒並詢問署長，職安署的組長跟科長等主管，未來會不會有很多人要提早退休或離職？"],["鄒署長子廉：非常謝謝委員提出這個問題，因為我們確實工作壓力蠻大的，有些同仁為了照顧家庭、有些要提早退休或其他生涯規劃，確實有一些同仁想要先離開，我誠心希望同仁能跟我一起繼續合作和努力。當然，有幾個同仁為了照顧家庭要提早退休……"],["陳委員瑩：聽你講那麼多，看起來就是真的了。我只想說，你現在講的理由都是從你嘴巴講出來的，而真實的理由，大家可能會放在心裡面。我要提醒的是，預防職災並不是一個在表面上展現政績的數字，而是反映出每一個職災勞工家庭的血淚故事。所以我希望勞動部真的可以好好檢討，不管是萬年主管掌控了資料開放不夠的問題，也有可能是球員兼裁判的問題，或者是讓內部機構劣幣驅逐良幣的情形發生。這些都是直接或間接傷害到勞工，造成職災會持續發生的原因。所以我想請部長好好想一想，到底要怎麼做才能有顯著的改善。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員剛剛講的這些狀況的發生，我作為一個首長都有責任，我們未來也會思考怎麼檢討，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。接續請劉建國召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdceeb877d2240db50d5a0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6be861507bed890295c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:28:31 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哇 這個32%下去 我不合他抓的 給我們台廠公 要不然延後出貨我延後給你拿 或是我抓不好的"},{"start":123.194,"end":147.956,"text":"所以這會馬上面對一個問題這個台廠就是說我這裡的廢水斷掉了那你也知道我們事實上台灣如果做代工為主的一些產業的話他這裡代工的東西又涉及到了所謂有智慧財產權有IP的一個限制我們同樣的這些貨除了出到這個訂單下訂單的國家要轉售出去還會受到IP的限制"},{"start":148.817,"end":177.942,"text":"所以這個會有雙重的一個打擊所以我要具體的請教部長說我們要幫這裡的企業就是要讓主席賭到的總控所以如果他們在跟美國的廠商在談判32%如果沒辦法順利的時候政府可以做怎樣的協助來我想要請教部長報告委員我想這個現在已經過了12點12點過後以後就適用這個32%的稅率但是12點之前出貨的一個禮拜前出貨的"},{"start":179.534,"end":190.648,"text":"五月二十七號到美國他打十趴啦一個拜請出席都叫官來說論所以一個拜請出席的意思是說為什麼要處理?是說告美國?還是我們準賽處理就算了?"},{"start":195.053,"end":202.359,"text":"5月27日那天就是說4月15日已經出發5月27日可以到美國的這都是早晚的稅率早早晚的稅率如果4月15日跟4月19日跟今天中午之前出的90%現在已經差不多12點了這個時候出發去美國的"},{"start":213.899,"end":221.703,"text":"要加30%所以因為這個情形所以我們很輕鬆已經收到美國那邊的通緝暫緩出貨很多廠商就這樣跟我反映這個部分造成金融頂頭的問題是我們都有準備要安裝給它紓困"},{"start":239.452,"end":264.878,"text":"要怎麼讓他可以就寢離瀉就寢的時候 特別是中小銀行來說中小企業 他要把我們的貸款 把我們的中小企業的貸款我們都會給予一些重寬 重塑 重減的方式來協助他們市長 所以你這說的很重要的就是說雨天不能說散"},{"start":266.51,"end":278.393,"text":"現在大家很擔心啦,我們現在真的是很擔心,就是第一類他們現在暫緩出貨,這些東西就囤在他們那裡,所以他們後面他們的生産所也會對那裡出問題喔,所以這個事情一旦拖久了,這個32%客在那邊又暫緩出貨,對他們的整個生產線,然後他們的資金調動,整個就卡住了"},{"start":288.536,"end":312.081,"text":"所以台廠會馬上面對的這都是一連串的一個問題所以第一類我們對於他們在於說這種短期的需要這個貸款需求的雨天不能收傘第二個部長你剛剛講的重塑重減這件事情要怎麼做一個落實然後第三個就是我們880億我們除了現在想像的到的農漁牧產品會受到首當其衝在未來的談判中農漁牧產品大概是受傷最嚴重的"},{"start":317.642,"end":334.536,"text":"第二個,就是這880億能不能具體用在協助廠商在這個時候給予他們更多利息的一個優惠讓他們一旦有獲利,因為卡掉了因為他們的倉儲成本,或者是他們的生產線不順的時候"},{"start":336.597,"end":347.585,"text":"這個時候我覺得我們經濟部應該都要下箱跟很多廠商 愛做堂會 愛做堂會 大家要知道他們現在的狀況 實際上要判斷起來 到底我們台灣的企業有多少因為這個延後出貨 因為這個32% 目前他們的商品是吊車的 我覺得這個都要趕快去了解"},{"start":355.791,"end":369.647,"text":"是 報告委員我們現在的做法是這樣子我們園區管理局有66個園區裡面的廠商是數千家數萬家我們是透過園區管理局先了解區內的廠商的需求"},{"start":370.828,"end":396.913,"text":"第二個我們有開設這個call center這個馬上辦服務中心在我們中小這個中小企業署上面然後我們會啟動讓他們打電話來詢問他們的問題我們也啟動這個說如果需要的話請他我們一對一的來輔導他了解他到底他的問題是怎麼樣子那該紓困的紓困該輔導的輔導"},{"start":399.033,"end":427.008,"text":"我想我們這一次啟動的除了快速的去了解問題然後我們希望能夠對症下藥好 部長那你剛剛講到的就是說我們可能會針對現在國內62個我們的產業園區這是經濟部管轄的產業園區但是部長也許你也不要忘了台灣有很多隱形冠軍他們是在早期沒有進到園區裡面甚至包括說我們公布法通過的有很多這些農地工廠"},{"start":427.908,"end":456.233,"text":"實際上這些農地工廠除了土地跟他們的建物還沒有辦法合法之外他們的生產力是很高的他們都是台灣的隱形冠軍我認為雨天部應該收場的也應該都是包括他們喔報告委員我們不是只有針對我們自己的園區啦我們會跟各地方的工業會來舉辦這個座談或者是直接去拜訪就是有需要我們協助的我們是優先處理啦"},{"start":457.093,"end":481.149,"text":"對於那個產業的發展因為不是每一家公司都對美國的這一個關稅會有影響不是每一家都會去美國但是可能會有一個年代的擴散會有一些擴散的影響所以我們基本上是防止一波的往外擴散真正對需要協助的廠商可以快速的協助所以部長我是再次呼籲"},{"start":482.21,"end":500.84,"text":"因為我們現在要說零關稅現在要說擴大對美的一個採購這個真的是比較長遠的方向但是現階段就是要趕快扶持這些產業面對馬上的衝擊這件事很要緊所以我希望部隊包括我們主委真的要跟廠商有機會就叫他們包括他們有很多的同業工會就叫他們來講叫他們來協助建文化"},{"start":510.385,"end":539.464,"text":"從過去就一直進行啦不會進行啦還可以一直進行我相信這要加速這個危機讓他們先渡過你看一下事實上如果以台灣這個台股來說你看這幾天還不斷的在看起來還在跌啦事實上台灣的廠商在這一次32%的衝擊很大因為我們的產品很多都是在產業鏈的一環裡面既然在這個產業鏈的一環他就很少廠商可以說他完全置身事外"},{"start":540.706,"end":544.071,"text":"所以雖然教會是一個很細胞可能老師這種東西不一樣就是會調查好不好 部長是好 謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時28分）好，謝謝主席，我們有請經濟部部長跟國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請郭部長、劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長、主委。針對這一次美國對等關稅，對臺灣課32%，現在有諸多的討論，包括我們跟美國之間是不是走到零關稅，或者是我們擴大對美國採購能源的相關項目，來緩和我們對美國的貿易順差，但是我覺得這個都是比較長遠的事情，因為談判現在也才剛開始。在談判的過程中，部長，你覺得有可能爭取到在談判期間，讓這32%關稅的啟動時間暫緩嗎？這一點有沒有信心爭取到？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們的期許啦。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們的期許嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。但是……"],["蔡委員易餘：這個決定權在美國，我們當然要去爭取。我就擔心萬一在4月9日前，我們沒有爭取到暫緩關稅32%的啟動，那現階段臺灣的臺廠馬上就要面對一個問題，就是要出口到美國的貨物，可能現在正在裝櫃，可能現在船正在海上航行，在航行的途中，過去這個關稅如果課的話，應該是由在美國那一方要負責這32%，但是他現在就會說這32%課下去，划不來，就會跟我們臺廠說，不然延後出貨，延後再取貨，或是乾脆不要了，所以這會馬上面對一個問題，臺廠就會馬上把這些貨囤著。你也知道，事實上臺灣做代工為主的一些產業，代工的東西又涉及智慧財產權、IP的限制，同樣的這些貨，除了出貨到下訂單的國家，要轉售出去還會受到IP的限制，所以會有雙重的打擊。因此，我要具體地請教部長，我們要幫這些企業，就是要針對現在遇到的狀況。如果他們在跟美國的廠商談判32%關稅沒辦法順利的時候，政府可以怎樣協助？我想要請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在已經過了12點了，12點過後就適用32%的稅率，但是12點之前出貨的，一個禮拜前出貨的，於5月27日到美國的可豁免10%關稅，一個禮拜前出貨的，都照原來的稅率。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以一個禮拜前出貨的意思是說，什麼時候出去？是船到美國，還是我們的耽擱出去就算是了？"],["郭部長智輝：就是5月27日那天。4月5日以前出貨，5月27日可以到美國的，這些都照原來的稅率。"],["蔡委員易餘：都照原來的稅率？"],["郭部長智輝：對。如果是4月5日到4月9日中午之前出的貨就加10%，現在已經超過12點了，這個時候出貨去美國的，要加32%關稅，因為這個情形，所以很多廠商已經收到美國那邊通知暫緩出貨了。"],["蔡委員易餘：很多廠商就這樣跟我反映。"],["郭部長智輝：對，這個部分造成他們金融上的問題的時候，我們都有準備要怎麼紓困，要怎麼讓他們可以借錢，要怎麼付利息，借錢的時候，中小企業要貸款，我們都會給予一些從寬、從速、從簡的方式來協助他們。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你說的這些很重要，就是雨天不能收傘。現在大家很擔心……"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們現在不會收傘。"],["蔡委員易餘：真的是很擔心，第一個，他們現在暫緩出貨，這些東西就囤在他們那裡，所以後面他們的生產線也會出問題，這件事情一旦拖久了，這32%課在那邊，又暫緩出貨，會造成他們整個生產線和他們的資金調動整個咬住了，臺廠馬上面對的都是一連串的問題，所以第一個，對於他們這一種短期貸款的需求，雨天不能收傘。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，部長，你剛剛講的從速、從簡這件事情要怎麼落實？第三個就是880億，我們除了現在想像得到的農漁牧產品會首當其衝，在未來的談判中，農漁牧產品大概是受傷最嚴重的，這880億能不能具體用在協助廠商，在這個時候給予他們更多利息的優惠，讓他們一旦有貨出貨時卡住，因而增加他們的倉儲成本，或者是他們的生產線停滯不順的時候，這個時候我覺得我們經濟部應該要下鄉跟很多廠商開座談會，然後大家要把他們現在的狀況講出來，你們要盤整到底我們臺灣的企業有多少因為這個32%而延後出貨，他們的商品出貨停滯不順，我覺得這個都要趕快去瞭解。"],["郭部長智輝：是。報告委員，我們現在的作法是這樣子，我們園區管理局有66個園區，裡面的廠商有數千家、數萬家，我們是透過園區管理局，先瞭解區內廠商的需求。","第二個，我們有開設call center馬上辦服務中心在我們中小企業署上面，然後我們會啟動，讓他們打電話來詢問他們的問題，如果他們需要的話，我們一對一地來輔導他們，瞭解到底問題是怎麼樣的，該紓困的紓困、該輔導的輔導。我們這一次啟動的，除了快速地去瞭解問題之外，我們希望能夠對症下藥。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，你剛剛講到，我們可能會針對現在國內的產業園區，這是經濟部管轄的產業園區，但是部長也不要忘了，臺灣有很多隱形冠軍，他們在早期沒有進到園區裡面，甚至包括很多是工輔法無法通過的農地工廠，事實上這些農地工廠，除了土地跟建物還沒有辦法合法之外，他們的生產力是很高的，他們都是臺灣的隱形冠軍，我認為雨天不應該收傘的對象也應該包括他們。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們不是只有針對我們自己的園區，我們會跟各地方的工業會舉辦座談，或者是直接去拜訪，有需要我們協助的，我們是優先處理。對於產業的發展……因為不是每一家公司都會受到美國關稅的影響。"],["蔡委員易餘：不是每一家都有銷去美國。"],["郭部長智輝：對啊，但是可能有連帶的擴散，會有一些擴散的影響，所以我們基本上是防止這一波往外擴散，真正對需要協助的廠商給予快速的協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。部長，我再次呼籲，我們現在在談零關稅，在談擴大對美的採購，真的都是比較長遠的方向，但是現階段就是要趕快扶持這些產業，畢竟他們馬上將面對的衝擊，這件事情很要緊。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我希望部長、包括主委，真的趕快和廠商溝通，有機會就叫他們來說，包括很多的同業公會，就叫他們來說。"],["郭部長智輝：我們從過去就一直進行了。"],["蔡委員易餘：有在進行？"],["郭部長智輝：從過去就一直在進行。"],["蔡委員易餘：這要加速，讓他們先渡過這個危機。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：你看一下，以臺股來說，這幾天還不斷地在跌，事實上，臺灣的廠商在這一次32%關稅受到的衝擊很大，因為我們的產品很多都是在產業鏈的一環裡面，既然是產業鏈的一環，很少廠商可以完全置身事外，雖然他們可能只是占很小的一部分，可能是像螺絲這種零件，但是也一樣會出貨停滯。好不好，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請黃國昌委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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在場的委員 現屆列席的政府機關首長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請郭部長跟劉主委郭部長 劉主委"},{"start":25.444,"end":51.03,"text":"委員好 部長好 主委好兩位都是經貿財政的專家 容我班門弄斧今天我的題目是台灣要擴大對美採購 要降低美國對台的貿易逆差而且要嚴防中國起產地 避免遭美國圍堵我來先表述一下大家這幾天緊張的事情請問部長你認為川普總統 美國總統他要解決什麼問題他最念之再之的是什麼"},{"start":52.011,"end":57.087,"text":"報告委員我想他解決三個問題但是念之再之的是他的這個金融失控的問題是"},{"start":59.793,"end":84.607,"text":"然後呢然後再來就是貿易失衡的問題第三個解決製造空中化的問題很好大概跟我的很接近我覺得他要解決美國的赤字哪兩種赤字貿易赤字跟財政赤字貿易赤字主要來源是包括中國在內的不對等貿易就是逆差財政赤字他要削減政府支出要增加財政收入我這樣講劉主委認為有沒有符合川普的目前的想法"},{"start":85.367,"end":100.967,"text":"有的 好 我們來看還有他解決他目前這個中低階階的解決機會是 很好 那製造他就會往下看來 川普開出各國不等的關稅清單目的是什麼大家都不合理啊部長你覺得他的目的是什麼"},{"start":102.386,"end":128.309,"text":"一句話他的目的他的目的就叫你繳關稅啊我覺得不是這樣他要你上談判桌因為不合理嘛所以你會跟他argue嘛所以你要上談判桌但是談判的目的是什麼呢兩個目的第一他要維持對中國的高關稅第二他希望他的貿易主要對手友邦他建立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟來對抗中國你認為我這個推測合理嗎 劉主委"},{"start":131.923,"end":156.276,"text":"我想這是一個選項之一但是我很樂觀的認為他不是要跟其他的貿易對手課高關稅他是要叫你調低零關稅我就跟你成為一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟然後我們都對中國圍堵好往下看如果零關稅同盟圍堵中國產生什麼結果呢第一本來消亡美國的中國貨被同盟國取代因為中國高關稅嘛"},{"start":157.489,"end":177.76,"text":"本來很有競爭力的 現在呢 盟國是零關稅所以盟國就取代銷往美國的中國貨 是不是這樣子 部長可以這樣的 這個方向來討論但是同樣的 中國也對你美國高關稅啊所以美國貨銷不到同盟國去 它要銷給誰銷給零關稅的同盟國嘛 是不是這樣子"},{"start":179.304,"end":196.509,"text":"我們都是零關稅的同盟,所以他賣給我們,好,往下看所以美國輸台,如果是零關稅,能改善美國的貿易逆差嗎?有兩個可能一個是有的產品會啊,真的零關稅之後我們就跟美國買啊部長是不是這樣?什麼會跟美國買?主委你覺得哪個會跟美國買?零關稅後會有一些產品的確我直接跟你講,我來自農業圈,我們很擔心的,農產品"},{"start":206.221,"end":224.252,"text":"黃小玉啊這些牛奶乳製品啊還有什麼還有這些其他的美國的出口大宗那我們要因應產業衝擊明天會問農業部但是有的產品不會什麼產品不會我請教一下美國車跟日本車都零關稅你覺得國人會買美國車還是日本車我直接講好了我想很多人都會選擇還是買日本車所以零關稅也不見得能解決美國銷台的輸售問題就要擴大採購往下看"},{"start":236.297,"end":263.54,"text":"所以我在3月17號就建議要加大對美的採購其實最美採購的大家第一宗就是什麼 能源嘛所以部長 現在我們台電跟台灣中油是不是有擴大要跟美國採購天然氣有可能沒有 有可能 好 很好但是為什麼台灣過去不買呢因為跟澳洲買比較便宜啊 至少運匯便宜啊運匯跟關稅有沒有關係 沒有關係啊就算零關稅 我跟澳洲買運匯便宜啊 跟美國買運匯貴"},{"start":265.382,"end":289.701,"text":"成本會提高 應經部要不要因應台電買比較貴的電纜器又不影響電價經濟部要不要因應 部長要不要因應這一部分我想我們會擴大評估啦從成本的概念 從時間的方面都可以評估好 下一頁但是 好啦 我們解決了對美擴大採購問題之後日月南都降到零關稅了 為什麼美國認為還不夠"},{"start":291.618,"end":304.887,"text":"部長你覺得呢他這裡面有很多就是國家補助啊國家補助還有一個最重要的如果越南跟美國之間是零關稅但是越南跟中國也是零關稅中國就洗越南的產地去美國啊有沒有辦法防堵"},{"start":306.325,"end":331.031,"text":"美國要防堵中國有沒有辦法防堵 不行除了我們之間彼此零關稅你越南要跟中國要建立一個關稅壁壘或非關稅壁壘 是不是這樣子你點頭嘛 往下看所以說台灣也要擔心美國我相信我們可以跟美國彼此零關稅這個希望可能很高但是當我們跟美國零關稅美國還是會把舊金金在卡上中國產品有沒有透過你台灣洗產地啊請問 部長"},{"start":334.281,"end":361.553,"text":"有沒有這個過去的實例 有嘛從中國進口建制就到台灣來交貨其實又貼什麼 改標籤嘛養殖的東西 水產品透過活魚搬運跑到台灣來 有沒有有的是賣過去 有的是賣過來有沒有 好 往下看所以部長台灣輸出美國的主要商品有哪些你們有沒有統計你說產品的產品我們賣給美國的東西主要是半導體電子產業"},{"start":363.311,"end":381.916,"text":"五金零件還有呢比較優勢的就是半導體嘛然後電子相關的零組件然後還有汽車零件的這個部分那一旦零關稅之後呢台灣很多的產品就更具有競爭力可以到美國市場了但是美國會擔心啊你的上游供應員有沒有來自中國是不是這樣子"},{"start":382.964,"end":402.705,"text":"我們現在大概因為跟美國在談就是飛鴻供應鏈是我是意思說我們要注意到當美國這樣看越南的時候零關稅還不夠的時候我們台灣也要遇到當我們也跟他零關稅之後他還是會檢視你輸出到美國的東西有沒有含有中國成分是是這樣嗎是主委你同意嗎"},{"start":405.522,"end":421.384,"text":"這是有可能的所以我做個結論其實這次我個人認為川普先生他主要的目的要解決美國的赤字包括貿易赤字跟財政赤字在貿易赤字部分最大的對手就是中國造成的不公平的貿易因此他要求"},{"start":422.225,"end":447.944,"text":"主要的貿易對手跟他成立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟要求彼此之間零關稅讓同盟的產品可以取代美國市場上的中國貨另外他也希望同盟國開放你的國內市場讓我美國商品銷售但是由於美國商品有它的非關稅因素台灣可能必須特定的去進行大量的採購另外當台灣想要對美國零關稅的時候美國也會嚴格防止"},{"start":448.544,"end":468.337,"text":"我們台灣消美的產品有沒有含有中國成分所以結論請經濟部盤點消美的主要產品上游的供應鏈是不是含有中國製品可以嗎可以而且要提出調整對策因為我知道我們有很多的產業它是跟中國有一個供應鏈的關係一定要提出對策可以嗎這個是主委的事情嗎"},{"start":469.806,"end":477.639,"text":"這部長的事情部長可以嗎我現在再交代他們馬上謝謝馬上處理可能我下午就拿到了好那麼就謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1062,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時20分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請郭部長跟劉主委。"],["主席：請郭部長、劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、主委好。兩位都是經貿、財政的專家，容我班門弄斧，今天我的題目是「臺灣要擴大對美採購，要降低美國對臺的貿易逆差，而且要嚴防中國洗產地，避免遭美國圍堵」。我來先表述一下大家這幾天緊張的事情，請問部長，你認為美國川普總統要解決什麼問題？他最念茲在茲的是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想他要解決三個問題，他念茲在茲的是美國金融失控的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。然後呢？"],["郭部長智輝：然後再來就是貿易失衡的問題。第三個是解決製造空洞化的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，大概跟我想的很接近，我覺得他要解決美國的赤字，哪兩種赤字？貿易赤字跟財政赤字。貿易赤字主要來源是包括中國在內的不對等貿易，就是逆差。至於財政赤字，他要削減政府支出，要增加財政收入，我這樣講，劉主委認為有沒有符合川普目前的想法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還有他要解決目前美國中低階工人就業機會不足的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，很好。","川普開出各國不等的關稅清單，目的是什麼？大家都說不合理啊，部長，你覺得他的目的是什麼？一句話，說他的目的。"],["郭部長智輝：他的目的就是叫你繳關稅啊，關稅就是現金啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得不是這樣，他要你上談判桌，因為不合理嘛，所以你會跟他argue嘛，所以他要上談判桌，但是，談判的目的是什麼呢？有兩個目的，第一，要維持對中國的高關稅，第二，他希望與其貿易主要的對手、友邦建立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟，來對抗中國。你認為我這個推測合理嗎？劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我想這是選項之一。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個是選項之一，但是我很樂觀地認為，他不是要跟其他的貿易對手課高關稅，他是要叫你調低到零關稅，我就跟你成為一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟，然後我們都對中國圍堵。如果零關稅同盟圍堵中國，會產生什麼結果呢？第一，本來銷往美國的中國貨被同盟國的貨物取代，因為中國高關稅嘛，本來中國貨是很有競爭力的，但因為盟國是零關稅，所以盟國的貨物就取代銷往美國的中國貨，是不是這樣子？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：可以朝這樣的方向來討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。但是同樣的，中國也對美國課高關稅啊，所以美國貨若銷不到同盟國去，要銷給誰？銷給零關稅的同盟國嘛，是不是這樣子？對不對？我們都是零關稅同盟國嘛，所以美國輸臺如果是零關稅，能改善美國的貿易逆差嗎？有兩個可能，一個是有的產品會啊，真的零關稅的時候，我們就跟美國買啊。部長，是不是這樣？什麼會跟美國買？主委，你覺得零關稅後哪個會跟美國買？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：會有一些產品。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我直接跟你講，我來自農業縣，我們很擔心農產品，包含黃小玉、牛奶、乳製品，還有其他美國出口的大宗貨物，我們要因應產業衝擊，明天我會問農業部。但是有的產品不會，什麼產品不會？我請教一下，美國車跟日本車都零關稅，你覺得國人會買美國車還是日本車？我直接講好了，我想很多人都會選擇還是買日本車，所以零關稅也不見得能解決美國銷臺的問題，就要擴大採購，所以我在3月27日就建議要加大對美的採購，其實對美採購的第一是什麼？能源嘛。部長，現在我們台電跟台灣中油是不是有要擴大跟美國採購天然氣？有可能嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能。好，很好。但是為什麼臺灣過去不買呢？因為跟澳洲買比較便宜，至少運費便宜啊。運費跟關稅有沒有關係？沒有關係啊。就算零關稅，跟澳洲買，運費便宜啊；跟美國買，運費貴，所以成本會提高，經濟部要不要因應？台電買比較貴的天然氣，又要不影響電價，經濟部要不要因應？部長要不要因應？"],["郭部長智輝：關於這一部分，我想我們會擴大評估，從成本的概念、從時間的方面，都可以評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們解決了對美擴大採購問題之後，越南都降到零關稅了，為什麼美國認為還不夠？部長，你覺得呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這裡面有很多國家補助啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國家補助，還有個最重要的，如果越南跟美國之間是零關稅，但是越南跟中國之間也是零關稅，中國就靠越南洗產地銷去美國啊。有沒有辦法防堵？美國要防堵中國有沒有辦法防堵？不行，除了我們之間彼此零關稅，越南要跟中國建立一個關稅壁壘或非關稅壁壘，是不是這樣子？你點頭。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說臺灣也要擔心美國，我相信我們可以跟美國彼此零關稅，這個希望可能很高，但是當我們跟美國零關稅，美國還是會再看中國產品有沒有透過臺灣洗產地，請問部長，過去有沒有實例？有嘛。從中國進口監視器到臺灣來交貨，又改標籤；養殖的水產品透過活魚搬運，跑到臺灣來，有沒有？有的是賣過去，有的是賣過來，有沒有？所以部長，臺灣輸出美國的主要商品有哪些？你們有沒有統計？"],["郭部長智輝：你說產品？"],["鍾委員佳濱：產品。我們賣給美國的東西，主要是半導體、電子產業、五金零件，還有呢？"],["郭部長智輝：比較優勢的就是半導體，然後是電子相關的零組件，還有汽車零件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一旦零關稅之後，臺灣很多產品就會更具有競爭力，可以賣到美國市場，但是美國會擔心我們產品的上游供應鏈有沒有來自中國，是不是這樣子？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在跟美國在談非紅供應鏈。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我的意思是說，我們要注意到，當美國這樣看越南的時候，零關稅還不夠的時候，我們臺灣也要預想，當我們也跟美國零關稅之後，美國還是會檢視我們輸出到美國的東西有沒有含有中國成分嘛，是這樣嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，你同意嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這是有可能的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是有可能的，所以我作個結論，其實這一次我個人認為，川普先生主要的目的是要解決美國的赤字，包括貿易赤字跟財政赤字。在貿易赤字部分，最大的對手就是中國造成不公平貿易，因此他要求主要的貿易對手跟他成立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟，要求彼此之間零關稅，讓同盟的產品可以取代美國市場上的中國貨。另外，他也希望同盟國開放國內市場，讓美國商品銷售，但是由於美國商品有它的非關稅因素，臺灣可能必須特定地去進行大量的採購。此外，當臺灣享有對美國零關稅的時候，美國也會嚴格防止我們臺灣銷美的產品含有中國的成分，所以我的結論是，請經濟部盤點銷美主要產品的上游供應鏈是不是含有中國製品，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以。而且要提出調整對策，因為我知道我們有很多的產業跟中國有供應鏈的關係，一定要提出對策，可以嗎？這個是主委的事情嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是部長的事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我現在交代他們馬上做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝、謝謝，好，馬上處理、馬上處理，可能我下午就拿到了。好，那我就謝謝部長，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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董事長這個就是這樣所以你會後麻煩寫個報告給我到底我們出了什麼問題既沒有人要停也不來這裡載客人出去到底你們在跟遊輪公司接洽實際運作的過程裡面它到底出現了什麼障礙好不好這件事情因為時間有限我還有兩個大問題第二個問題這個何局長麻煩一下"},{"start":341.909,"end":364.27,"text":"所以我想我們已經做很多次的這個溝通就我一直在講清泉鋼國際機場它是很有潛力的由實際的數據它過去也都是成長最快的航運的這個機場那所以我們共同一個結論就是我們認為它是有潛力的就它有未來的啦那既然有未來我們就應該好好的來面對它的未來該怎麼樣讓它變得更好"},{"start":365.111,"end":383.762,"text":"那我一直在講說我們的航線都太少了啦像我把它你看我做一個整理當然我們很努力嘛包括最近我們爭取那個神戶也要也要飛了嘛這都好事啦但是不管我怎麼爭取我都還是覺得慢"},{"start":384.946,"end":406.651,"text":"你看許智杰委員都一直在笑他都每天廣告都全高雄小港差不多他爭取了大概幾條了十幾二十條了你看十五條啦我的意思是說台中要加油啦我知道有很多的問題啦就是包括飛機的數量的問題比如說華信他就是飛機數量嘛譬如說"},{"start":408.351,"end":428.213,"text":"這個對方啊我們想去的地方對方他們這個還沒有允許嘛那我就一直覺得很奇怪為什麼高雄都會允許台中都不會允許那飛機不夠為什麼台中都高雄都夠那台中都會不夠這個才是我今天要關心的問題啦那另外呢"},{"start":429.178,"end":454.001,"text":"那個局長台中今年除了我們爭取這個神戶就是我們以這個叫做星宇來講我們爭取了沖繩然後高松定期航班然後神戶馬上要飛了局長今年還有哪一些國家的航空公司可以或者外商的航空公司在今年還會增加哪一些點"},{"start":456.387,"end":482.682,"text":"目前來講的話那個月竹還會再開一個那個壓樁壓樁對6月那國航有沒有像那個虎航還欠我一個航點虎航其實他已經開航了澳門嘛那5月下旬會有這個名古屋那跟日本的機場加油確定以後他就會有名古屋那6月的話也會有濟州好所以這個名古屋跟濟州算還我的啦"},{"start":483.422,"end":500.104,"text":"對不對因為去年我一直在講這個事情你們告訴我說因為那個冬季航班的問題所以我也出面在我的社群平台也解釋了所以但是我的意思就是說今年要趕快還我啦不然你虎航給我斷掉人家以為虎航要撤離台中了所以"},{"start":501.055,"end":524.463,"text":"明鼓屋 今年明鼓屋跟濟州島這兩個務必努力促成欸欸 董事長你要不要這個應該是確定的啦那是你的子公司可以嗎可以嗎 董事長明鼓屋跟濟州這個是確定的吧我回去督促他們把那個schedule訂好會後啦 時間的關係會後你再來請胡航你跟胡航再一起來我辦公室我們再來把青年鋼機場再盤點一下"},{"start":526.344,"end":552.552,"text":"這個喔 台中真的很有潛力啦我們有實際的這個工商的需求也有觀光 龐大的觀光能量不然的話 那個星宇啊 那張董事長他不會傻傻的一直要發展台中嘛所以 他有潛力那現在怎麼問題 積極的把這些航線跟要克服的軟硬體的問題把它解決掉 好不好最後一個問題啊 這個 我請那個署長好了"},{"start":553.837,"end":581.418,"text":"沒有找你上來怪怪的光光一直覺得不是太理想蘇長我一直跟你講那個數字管理很重要當然你現在部長只是就是說院裡面現在要成立這個叫做光光的研訓院那我再一次強調數字的管理沒有數字的管理我隨便舉一個例子大家都在講墾丁貴那墾丁真的貴嗎"},{"start":583.103,"end":610.265,"text":"如果你作為觀光主管機關我問你說墾丁真的貴嗎其實你沒有辦法說服我墾丁貴或不貴因為你沒有數據嘛就你沒有任何的做以數據或者觀光趨勢的這種預測因為那你要預測也要有數據嘛所以這些你都沒有的情況下其實你沒有辦法回答我這個問題那我再問你住房率對不對很多人覺得台灣的房價很高"},{"start":611.519,"end":635.94,"text":"每一個人講這個話我相信他都是有憑有據啦因為什麼這是他的旅遊感受可是呢我也常常遇到我自己的旅遊感受我打電話想要去住一個地方每次打去他都跟我說客滿那你就知道一個國家不可能存在著有一些地方老是你打去跟他說他客滿然後有的人說喔這個這個飯店快要倒了"},{"start":637.125,"end":655.186,"text":"到底是要倒了還是生意太好那表示有可能是形態的不同譬如說度假型的可能生意沒有那麼好商務型的可能很好因為隨著台積電隨著外資的投資所以商務型的可能很好那區域也有關係譬如說高雄市人家陳其邁每天都在辦"},{"start":656.147,"end":668.539,"text":"每個禮拜都在辦各大型的這些藝文活動國際的藝文活動所以可能國際課進來台灣課也跑去高雄住所以高雄可能好可能好因為我也沒有數據嘛"},{"start":669.673,"end":696.472,"text":"那這些數據其實是作為觀光主管機關我常常對觀光署長我都特別的寬容是因為我一直講台灣要觀光立國你把觀光署長罵到死台灣也不會觀光立國因為觀光要立國就要靠行政院靠所有的縣市首長要有旅行的旅遊的DNA才有可能做到不然的話你要蓋出那麼醜的東西整個城市治安亂七八糟的誰會去所以那個DNA是要大家一起啦"},{"start":697.182,"end":726.426,"text":"但是做一個觀光署署長對於觀光趨勢跟觀光資源到底怎麼去解決這些問題你應該要功夫要下在這裡功夫要下在這裡譬如說人家說墾丁的墾丁大街食物貴那食物真的貴嗎我相信一定有害群之馬他故意賣的很貴然後就有人吃到那一家現在的社群媒體太發達了他吃到那一家之後就開始說這個地方爛死了"},{"start":727.116,"end":747.655,"text":"他有沒有造謠 他沒有 他真的就買到很貴的啊可是其他沒有賣很貴的人誰知道他們在哪裡當然叫觀光署做這個很困難 這要結合屏東縣政府再結合在地的觀光業者願不願意組織起來自救只要他們願意組織起來 政府的力量進去公告出"},{"start":748.803,"end":762.008,"text":"便宜的東西在哪裡不是便宜啦就是經濟實惠又合理的東西在哪裡這個是政府的責任嘛因為業者他沒有辦法他自己沒辦法面對這個輿論市場跟整個整個這個這個這個這個"},{"start":765.245,"end":777.496,"text":"所有所有的集體的業者但政府可以協助我覺得這反而是應該觀光署要做的事情否則我們在這個在這裡我已經講了快20年了從你們部長當我助理就開始講這個問題講到今天我們還是在講這個問題"},{"start":780.609,"end":799.785,"text":"老師還是在講同樣的問題嘛所以我的意思說觀光署應該清楚去定位從觀光局變觀光署到底觀光署要做什麼把全台灣的觀光叫觀光署一個人做那是那是笑話啦這種國家會發展出來好觀光我才覺得這是有問題的時間到了主席都已經受不了要站起來了"},{"start":801.18,"end":817.887,"text":"市長你不用回答了啦 因為已經來不及了啦 已經時間到了啦那最後我給你提醒 像那個公佈啊像有一些像阿根廷成長39% 37%還是30幾%那個我覺得那個就不用特別去強調啦你要公佈沒有問題 但不用特別強調為什麼 因為他成長30幾%總人數都還不到1000人"},{"start":822.449,"end":846.775,"text":"那人家就會覺得 你是在欺騙大家 其實你可能沒有這個意思啦你可能只是把所有的成長的狀況 以序列來排列而已可是如果這樣的東西被做文章 好像一副觀光局就在強調說有啊 有成長啊 像阿根廷就有突破成長三十幾趴 結果人數幾百個成長三十幾趴之後幾百個"},{"start":847.435,"end":856.038,"text":"日韓比較有意義這個就鬧笑話 這個就會人家覺得你浩大喜功以偏概全好不好時間的關係啦 不好意思住下 抱歉好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":932,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（12時）謝謝主席，請陳部長、何局長及李董事長。"],["主席：請部長、局長及李董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。首先要請教李董事長，根據今年2025年的郵輪船期預報表，臺中港還是零嘛！"],["李董事長賢義：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：去年我請你們要努力爭取，現在爭取的狀況如何？"],["李董事長賢義：今年本來是有2艘，一艘要過來時碰上海象不好，臨時取消停靠臺中港，所以今年是沒有，根據目前的預報，明年及後年都各有一艘，分別是115年4月7日的海島天空號及116年1月8日瑞佳塔的郵輪，現在都已經發布預報，而我們也都準備好了，不過，我們在這段期間仍然會繼續爭取。"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長，請你們給我一份報告，基隆港、高雄港及花蓮港的狀況看起來都不差，現在是船公司不願意去臺中或是有其他什麼問題？港務公司是否做過這樣的分析？"],["李董事長賢義：我們臺中港分公司結合了彰化、臺中及苗栗，大家希望能一起合作……"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長，我這個人很務實，做不起來就不要每年再花費精神及資源在那裡搞！我在這裡問你這件事情，你回答說已經認真在拚，但拚出來的結論也是零，等到明年我再問你拚得如何，你也還是會告訴我因為什麼什麼原因，最後就是沒有了。我的意思是……等下我也會問何局長，都是的一樣，如果清泉崗機場及臺中港在你們的交通專業評估是沒有潛力、沒有未來、沒有希望的地方，我們就不要在那裡繼續搞了。如果它本來是天生麗質，只是因為你們沒有認真幫它找對象，我們當然就是要持續檢討如何去做嘛！如果它本來就不可能發展，而你們為了應付立法院，每天都說努力、努力、努力，做了很久還是沒有結果，我認為大家就不要再浪費時間。部長，你聽得懂我在說什麼嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於臺中港先天的條件問題，等下可以請李董事長回答。另外就觀光層面來講，因為郵輪的特性是下船之後要再上船，旅客只有幾個小時的時間，我們希望能在短時間內抵達遊玩的地方，旅客才會有興趣。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：這個也是我們海線觀光正要紮根去做的事。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思很簡單，你們必須要進行盤點，譬如爭取郵輪來設航點時就必須清楚告訴郵輪公司，這裡能提供什麼樣的優惠、什麼樣的觀光資源，但是當這些都做盡，卻仍然沒有郵輪公司願意來的時候，我們就要分析是不是不如基隆、不如花蓮、不如高雄，這個才是我要的實際的東西。因為每次質詢時間都是6分、8分，我沒辦法在這裡與你討論這件事，但是我的立場很清楚，因為我一直認為中部的觀光資源並不會比南部……當然我也不是說南部很差，不然許智傑就會有意見了。我的意思是我們也不比人家差，各有特色嘛！花東有花東的特色、基隆有基隆的條件，當然臺中也有臺中的條件，到底是什麼原因讓郵輪數老是掛零，這是一個。再來，郵輪公司為什麼不想來臺中載中部地區的鄉親出去？前面所講是郵輪進來能幫助地方觀光產業的發展；後面提到是我們鄉親出門方便，但為什麼沒有一家郵輪公司願意到臺中港來，希望你在會後能來向我說明。我就講過，如果有船願意來臺中，我個人先包下100個房間進行促銷，我們有很多鄉親都可以參加，但即使我說了這樣的話也是沒有船要來啊！也沒有人回應我這個到底行不行？","我認為要繁榮這個地方，進與出都是重要的，但我也不想在這裡浪費時間，因為每次告訴你要做，你都回答說好，最後就是告訴我為什麼做不成，所以我們應該更認真的深究，這樣才是面對問題、解決問題的方法，好不好？"],["李董事長賢義：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長，麻煩你會後寫一份報告給我，到底我們出了什麼問題，讓它們既不停靠也不來載人出去？在你們與郵輪公司接洽的實際運作過程中，到底出現了什麼障礙，好不好？"],["李董事長賢義：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間有限，我還有兩個大問題要提問。","第二個問題，何局長，麻煩一下。我們已經做過很多次的溝通，而我也一直強調清泉崗國際機場很有潛力，從實際的數據來看，過去它也都是成長最快的機場，所以我們共同的結論都認為它是有潛力、有未來的，既然有未來，我們就應該好好面對未來該如何讓它變得更好。我一直都說現在的航線太少，你可以看到我所做的整理，當然我們都很努力，包括最近爭取到直飛神戶……"],["陳部長世凱：對，4月18日。"],["蔡委員其昌：這些都是好事，但無論如何爭取，我還是覺得太慢。你看許智傑委員一直在笑，因為他每天都說為高雄小港機場爭取了十幾、二十條的航線，你看，有十五條啦！我的意思是臺中要加油！當然我也知道有很多的問題，包括飛機數量的問題，譬如華信就是飛機的數量、譬如航線對方航點尚未允許，但我一直覺得很奇怪，為什麼高雄都能獲得允許，臺中卻都無法獲得允許？為什麼飛到臺中的飛機不夠，但是飛到高雄的飛機都夠，這個才是今天我要關心的問題。","另外，以星宇航空來講，今年臺中爭取到飛沖繩的航線、飛高松的定期航班、以及飛往神戶的航班即將開航，除此之外，局長，今年還有哪些國籍航空公司或外商航空公司會在清泉崗機場增加哪些點的航線？"],["何局長淑萍：目前來講，越竹還會再開一個芽莊。"],["蔡委員其昌：芽莊？"],["何局長淑萍：對，6月。"],["蔡委員其昌：國航有沒有？像虎航還欠我一個航點耶！"],["何局長淑萍：虎航其實已經開航了澳門，與日本的機場確定之後，5月下旬就會有名古屋的航線、6月也會有濟州。"],["蔡委員其昌：名古屋與濟州算是還我的，對不對？去年我一直在講這件事情，你們告訴我是因為冬季航班的問題，所以我也出面在我的社群平台上做了解釋，但我認為今年還是要趕快還我，不然虎航的航線斷了之後，大家還以為虎航要撤離臺中了。因此，針對名古屋及濟州島的航線，今年務必要努力促成。"],["陳部長世凱：名古屋與濟州應該是確定的。"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長，這是你的子公司，可以嗎？"],["高董事長星潢：我回去督促他們把schedule訂出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間的關係，會後請你與虎航一起到我的辦公室，我們再針對清泉崗機場的航線盤點一下。","臺中真的是很有潛力，我們有實際的工商需求、也有龐大的觀光能量，不然星宇張董事長不會傻傻的一直要發展台中嘛！既然它有潛力，現在就是如何積極解決這些航線要克服的軟硬體問題，好不好？","最後一個問題，請署長來回答，沒有找你上來就怪怪的，因為我一直認為觀光的部分並不是太理想。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：署長，我一直告訴你數字管理很重要，現在院裡也指示要成立觀光研訓院，所以我要再次強調數字的管理！如果沒有數字的管理，我隨便舉一個例子，大家都講墾丁貴，但墾丁真的貴嗎？你身為觀光主管機關，我問你墾丁真的貴嗎？其實你沒辦法說服我墾丁是貴或不貴，因為你沒有數據嘛！因為你沒有任何數據或以觀光趨勢所做的預測，就算你要預測也是要有數據嘛！在這些都沒有的情況下，你其實沒辦法回答我的問題。","我再問你住房率的問題，很多人覺得臺灣的房價很高，我相信每個講這些話的人都是有憑有據，因為這是他的旅遊感受，但我自己也常常遇到每次打電話想訂房卻被告知已客滿的旅遊感受。一個國家不可能存在著有些地方的飯店老是客滿、卻也有人說飯店快要倒了，到底是要倒了或是生意太好？這就表示有可能是型態不同，譬如渡假型的生意可能沒那麼好、商務型的生意可能很好，因為隨著台積電的投資、隨著外資的投資，所以商務型的生意可能很好。再者，區域也有關係，譬如高雄市的陳其邁每個禮拜都舉辦大型的藝文活動、國際的藝文活動，除了國際旅客會去高雄住之外，臺灣旅客也會去高雄住，所以高雄的狀況可能很好，可能啦！因為我也沒有數據嘛！","這些數據，作為觀光主管機關……其實我對於觀光署長都特別的寬容，因為我一直講臺灣要觀光立國，如果只是把觀光署長罵到死，臺灣也無法以觀光立國，因為要觀光立國就要靠行政院、靠所有的縣市首長，必須要有旅遊的DNA才有可能做到，不然，蓋出那麼醜的東西、整個城市治安亂七八糟，誰會去？因此，那個DNA需要大家一起努力。但是，身為觀光署的署長，到底要如何以觀光趨勢及觀光資源解決這些問題，你應該要把功夫下在這裡、把功夫下在這裡。"],["周局長永暉：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：譬如有人說墾丁大街的食物貴，食物真的貴嗎？我相信一定有害群之馬故意賣得很貴，當然就會有人吃到那一家，再加上現在的社群媒體太發達了，吃到那一家的人就會開始發文說這個地方爛死了！但是他有沒有造謠？沒有，因為他真的就是買到很貴的啊！但是其實還有其他沒賣很貴的店家，誰會知道他們在哪裡？如果要觀光署自己處理當然很困難，必須要結合屏東縣政府之外，還要再結合當地的業者是否願意組織起來自救，只要他們願意組織起來，再加上政府的力量進去，公告經濟實惠又合理的東西在哪裡，這是政府的責任，因為業者沒辦法自己面對輿論市場及所有的業者，但是政府可以提供協助，我認為這才是觀光署該做的事情。其實我在這裡已經講了快二十年，從你們的部長擔任我的助理時就開始講這個問題，一直到現在我們還是在講這個問題啊！老是在講同樣的問題嘛！我認為觀光署應該要清楚的定位，從觀光局升格為觀光署到底應該要做什麼，如果全臺灣的觀光事務都讓觀光署去做，當然是一個笑話，這樣的國家能發展出好的觀光環境，我才覺得是有問題。","時間到了，主席都已經受不了要站起來了。署長，你不用回答，因為已經來不及了、時間已經到了。最後要提醒你，在你們公布的資料中，像阿根廷成長39%或37%的數據就不用特別強調，即使要公布也不需要特別強調，為什麼？雖然它成長了百分之三十幾，但總人數卻還不到1,000人，這樣難免會讓人有欺騙大家的感覺，其實你們可能沒有這樣的意思、你們可能只是把所有成長的狀況依序排列而已，但是，如果這樣的東西被拿來作文章，觀光署就是一副強調觀光人數有成長的樣子，甚至還提出阿根廷就突破、成長了百分之三十幾，結果人數只有幾百個，成長百分之三十幾卻只有幾百個人，這個就會鬧笑話了。"],["陳部長世凱：日韓比較有意義。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個就鬧笑話了，人家會認為你們是好大喜功、以偏概全，好不好？時間的關係，主席，不好意思！「歹勢」啦！謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（游委員顥代）：現在請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王育敏","陳冠廷","劉建國","王義川","林倩綺"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「如何推動國際旅客來台觀光」及「提升國際機場量能與服務品質\n及增闢國際線航點航班之作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附\n屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計46案；三、審查人民請願文書共12案","agenda_id":"1143601_00002"}}},{"id":"159993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce91371e8faab2031779a8b3a3b5782fdd2eb6e21b32d8c6be5dc74b8a2e1778a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"12:18:34 - 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我們請陸委會梁副主委及移民署陳副署長"},{"start":20.658,"end":48.512,"text":"委員好副主委還有陳副署長好我想剛剛已經有很多委員有提到有關這個移民署要求大陸配偶補交出籍證明的澄清包括我辦公室也收到非常多這樣的澄清就是說只要在海基會沒有驗證資料的都要補交請教一下陳副署長請問是誰要你們這樣做的沒有 這個其實長久以來我們都有在做這個事情長久以來是多久以來"},{"start":49.676,"end":64.31,"text":"其實只要因為移民署負責在省陸配的長期居留從移清居留、長期居留到定居這個階段那請問一下陸委移民署一直以來都有做嗎?我們依據的是兩岸公寓這20年來都有做嗎?"},{"start":65.051,"end":91.991,"text":"我們依序都有在做都有做那為什麼還有這麼多還沒有補交如果你20年前就有做的話不該有這麼多人沒有補交嗎跟委員報告其實陸配到台灣來兩岸分配總共有36萬餘人我想請教一下陳副署長我們得到的訊息是在2024年也就是去年的10月是陸委會要求移民署要逐步清查這個陸籍配偶放棄戶籍證明的請問是不是這樣"},{"start":94.066,"end":115.502,"text":"這個我們長久以來都有做那我剛剛的問題是去年的10月份陸委會有沒有要求你們要逐步清查陸籍配偶的這個出戶證明其實長久以來我們都在我想我沒什麼時間在這邊鬼打牆我覺得有就有 沒有就沒有如果沒有你就說沒有有你就說有陳副署長"},{"start":121.125,"end":148.702,"text":"這個部分是不是說因為那個我也不要為難你啦你剛剛已經告訴我了所以我想請教一下就是有關這個部分就是洛委會要求移民署清查的這個喪屍原籍的證明是民國93年3月1號實施的這相關的辦法但在此之前是不需要提交這個喪屍原籍的證明那所以大家我想大家也都接到很多陳情很多都是"},{"start":149.102,"end":164.102,"text":"如果是以93年開始起算的話很多都是來台灣已經二三十年的這些陸配那所以他們有可能在當地第一個可能親人也不在了第二個有可能因為你要他已經被處級三十年以上再到原地去"},{"start":165.163,"end":188.268,"text":"要求他們以這個無戶籍的身份回去辦理本來就有實務上的困難所以已經造成了我想不管是配偶還有陸配的家庭他們都造成嚴重的一個恐慌那之前我們也有問過移民署移民署回覆我辦公室的說處理方式有三個第一個以海基會提供的請海基會提供驗證副本"},{"start":189.568,"end":213.106,"text":"第二個自己回大陸申請第三個請大陸親友代為申請這三種方式剛剛其實也有委員提到了都是不可行的方式也就是說現在在93年以前要清查的人數還有1萬多人剛剛副主長有提到了那目前剛剛不管是副主委還有陳副主長都提到"},{"start":213.746,"end":242.409,"text":"未來如果有沒辦法做到這三剛剛講的這三種方式可以用個案來去處理那我想請教一下目前還有一萬多個這樣子的一個狀一個這個還沒辦法處理的方式那未來如果都要以個案處理的話我不曉得是不是因為現在陸委會跟海基會實在是沒什麼業務喔這個吃飽太閒還是怎麼樣都要用個案來處理的話那真的有辦法來處理嗎所以能不能用通案的方式來協助"},{"start":244.006,"end":244.776,"text":"請教一下副主委"},{"start":246.67,"end":275.897,"text":"我再跟委員報告一下很多人他提出的很多理由有些理由是聽起來是合理的也有很多理由聽起來是其實是沒有那麼合理的如果是有剛剛我講我也在旁邊有聽到副主委有提到好有的不合理的部分那我們認同這就把這個不剔除那有沒有辦法用通案的方式來協助所以我們的原則還是這樣比如說啦一定原則上大家都要都要繳交證明"},{"start":276.497,"end":302.006,"text":"當然那但是如果說你真的是因為不可抗議的因素我們現在講的是93年以前的嗎從法律規定來講是全部都要交就是說我們可不可以以簽署竊竊書的方式來做替代應該是這樣講就要看他是不是真的無法回去真的無法回去取得文件"},{"start":302.426,"end":317.718,"text":"因為我剛剛提到這一萬多個如果你們都要用個案處理的話相信大家不管是這個陸委會不管是移民署的業務我相信都沒辦法來處理所以這部分希望剛剛我想我們國民黨團總召也特別希望你們能夠提出一些樣態"},{"start":318.659,"end":332.386,"text":"那什麼樣的方式是可行什麼樣的不可能盡量我覺得還是應該用通案來處理那真正有剛剛您講那個狀況再用個案處理我覺得這樣的方式可能也可以解決大家共同的一個困擾啦那另外再請教一下法務部鎮部長"},{"start":338.826,"end":361.147,"text":"請教一下鄭部長就是針對陸委會要求營運署清查這個放棄出戶證明若無法繳交要撤銷戶籍登記請問這是不是屬於行政處罰的行為行政處分行政處分那行政處分有沒有失效性的問題這要看那個"},{"start":364.588,"end":383.604,"text":"因為如果依照你們行政法法第45條的規定應該是有這個製裁處期時效至本法實施日期算三年嘛也就是說早就通過了那個追溯期啊這個不是 這是行政處分那這個也就是行政處罰這不是刑處罰好 那有沒有時效性"},{"start":393.004,"end":395.986,"text":"請問一下剛剛提到這個行政處分有沒有時效性"},{"start":410.97,"end":439.819,"text":"那這個應該因為他沒有義務的違反如果沒有義務違反就不是屬於行政的處罰那也有一種行政處分叫做管制性的行政處分那做成這樣一個行政處分我沒有看過相關實體法的規定不過剛才答詢的內容好像是說有從自知悉時起可以做這樣子一個處分那所以是有還是沒有"},{"start":441.398,"end":457.046,"text":"時效嗎?對就是如果實體法的規定是是從資息機關資息時起算他可以做這樣一個處分的話那可能就是要具體的去認定機關到底什麼時候是可知可得資息的好"},{"start":457.506,"end":475.063,"text":"那所以這部分應該要請梁副主委回答是嗎根據我們兩樣人民關係條例九之一條的規定你可以看它的條文它基本上是沒有任何時間限制的也就是說一個陸配他就算在台灣生活了五十年六十年"},{"start":475.603,"end":490.668,"text":"他如果兩邊的身份都有的話只要被我們窒息那我們就要處理好 那針對這個部分就是要麻煩梁副主委就我們剛剛所要求的能夠盡快的提出一個重案的檢討謝謝謝謝 那接下來我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":941,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（12時18分）謝謝主席，請陸委會梁副主委及移民署陳副署長。"],["主席：麻煩副主委、副署長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：副主委、陳副署長好。剛剛已經有很多委員提到，有關移民署要求大陸配偶補交除籍證明的陳情，包括本席辦公室也收到非常多這樣的陳情，只要在海基會沒有驗證資料的都要補交。請教一下陳副署長，請問是誰要你們這樣做的？"],["陳副署長建成：沒有。其實長久以來我們都有在做這個事情。"],["許委員宇甄：長久以來是指多久？"],["陳副署長建成：其實主要是因為移民署負責審核陸配的長期居留，從依親居留、長期居留到定居這個階段都……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，移民署一直以來都有做嗎？這20年來都有做嗎？"],["陳副署長建成：我們依據的是兩岸人民關係條例，一直都有在做。"],["許委員宇甄：既然都有做，為什麼還有這麼多人沒有補交？如果你們20年前就有做的話，不應該有這麼多人沒有繳交。"],["陳副署長建成：兩岸婚配總共有三十六萬餘人，其中14萬……"],["許委員宇甄：本席想請教一下陳副署長，就我們得到的訊息是2024年，也就是去年10月，陸委會要求移民署逐步清查陸籍配偶放棄戶籍證明的資料。請問是不是這樣？"],["陳副署長建成：這個部分我們長久以來都有做，這個不關……"],["許委員宇甄：本席剛剛的問題是，去年10月份陸委會有沒有要求你們逐步清查陸籍配偶的除籍證明？"],["陳副署長建成：其實長久以來我們都在……"],["許委員宇甄：本席沒有時間在這邊鬼打牆，有就有，沒有就沒有，如果沒有，你就說沒有，如果有，你就說有。"],["陳副署長建成：這個部分因為……"],["許委員宇甄：好，本席也不要為難你啦！其實你已經告訴本席答案了。本席想請教一下，有關這個部分，就是陸委會要求移民署清查的喪失原籍證明，這是民國93年3月1日實施的相關辦法，在此之前並不需要提交喪失原籍的證明，所以大家接到很多陳請，如果是以93年起算的話，很多都是來臺灣已經二、三十年的陸配，第一個，他們在當地，可能親人不在了；第二個，他已經被除籍30年以上，你要他們以無戶籍的身分回去辦理，本來就有實務上的困難，已經造成陸配家庭的嚴重恐慌。之前我們也問過移民署，移民署回覆本席辦公室，處理方式有三個，第一個，請海基會提供驗證副本；第二個，自己回大陸申請；第三個，請大陸親友代為申請。這三種方式，其實剛剛也有委員提到，都是不可行的方式。也就是說，93年以前來臺的，現在要清查的人數還有一萬多人，剛剛副署長也有提到。而且剛剛不管是副主委或陳副署長都有提到，未來如果沒辦法做到，也就是無法以剛剛說的三種方式取得證明，可以用個案處理。","本席想請教一下，目前還有一萬多名沒有適當的處理方式，未來如果都要個案處理，是不是因為現在陸委會和海基會沒什麼業務，是吃飽太閒？還是怎麼樣？都要用個案處理的話，真的有辦法處理嗎？能不能用通案的方式協助？請教一下副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告，很多人提出很多理由，有些理由聽起來合理，也有很多理由聽起來並不是那麼合理。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛本席也在旁邊，有聽到副主委提到，有的是不合理的，我們認同把這個部分剔除。有沒有辦法用通案的方式協助？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以我們的原則還是這樣，在一定原則上，大家都要繳交證明。"],["許委員宇甄：當然。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但如果真的是因為不可抗力的因素……"],["許委員宇甄：我們現在說的是93年以前的嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：從法律規定是全部都要交，不只是93年以前的。"],["許委員宇甄：我們可不可以用簽署切結書的方式替代？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣說，這要看他是不是真的無法回去取得文件。"],["許委員宇甄：因為本席剛剛提到，這一萬多人，如果你們都要用個案處理的話，本席相信不管是陸委會或移民署都沒辦法處理。所以針對這個部分，剛剛我們國民黨黨團總召也特別希望你們能夠提出一些樣態，什麼樣的方式是可行的？什麼樣的方式不可行？本席覺得還是應該儘量用通案處理，真的有剛剛您說的那個狀況再用個案處理，本席覺得這樣的方式可能可以解決大家共同的困擾啦！","另外再請教一下法務部鄭部長，針對陸委會要求移民署清查放棄除籍證明，若無法繳交要撤銷戶籍登記，請問這是不是屬於行政處罰的行為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個行政處分。"],["許委員宇甄：行政處分有沒有時效性的問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看行政程序法的相關規定。"],["許委員宇甄：如果依照行政罰法第四十五條的規定，應該是裁處權時效自本法實施日期起算三年，也就是早就過了那個追溯期。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是，這是行政處分。"],["許委員宇甄：那有什麼差別嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是行政處罰。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那有沒有時效性？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分要請教司法院。"],["許委員宇甄：請教司法院程廳長，剛剛提到的這個行政處分有沒有時效性？"],["程廳長怡怡：因為他沒有義務的違反，如果沒有義務違反，就不是屬於行政的處罰。也有一種行政處分叫做管制性的行政處分，做成這樣的行政處分，我沒有看過相關實體法的規定，不過剛才答詢的內容好像說有從自知悉時起，可以做這樣的處分，以上。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是有還是沒有？"],["程廳長怡怡：時效嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：對。"],["程廳長怡怡：如果實體法的規定是從機關知悉時起算，他可以做這樣的處分的話，那可能就是要具體的去認定機關到底什麼時候是可得知悉的。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那這部分應該要請梁副主委回答是嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：根據兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一的規定，可以看到條文基本上是沒有任何時間限制的，也就是一個陸配就算在臺灣生活了50年、60年，他如果兩邊身分都有的話，只要被我們知悉，我們就要處理。"],["許委員宇甄：好，這個部分要麻煩梁副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["許委員宇甄：針對我們剛剛所要求的，能夠儘快提出一個通案的檢討，謝謝。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請羅智強委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"159992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcee2059871539f53f1a9dd72f8e909e2232eb6e21b32d8c6be7cccb990385a62e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:12:02 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我們請部長"},{"start":11.428,"end":31.206,"text":"部長好 今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個"},{"start":33.268,"end":50.811,"text":"原本我們用救安基金好去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的"},{"start":51.852,"end":80.454,"text":"那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合"},{"start":81.174,"end":108.327,"text":"這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實勞動部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們"},{"start":109.568,"end":131.467,"text":"用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點"},{"start":132.208,"end":143.473,"text":"那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括"},{"start":147.267,"end":175.79,"text":"我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了"},{"start":177.051,"end":198.226,"text":"也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的"},{"start":199.907,"end":219.022,"text":"未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這一段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了"},{"start":219.602,"end":239.97,"text":"好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來"},{"start":243.411,"end":257.783,"text":"支付 然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看 我沒有唱啦 我有去看啦我覺得這對勞工來說 很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌"},{"start":265.79,"end":294.003,"text":"這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來"},{"start":295.303,"end":322.695,"text":"該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能花蓉我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解"},{"start":323.255,"end":342.823,"text":"或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用它就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得"},{"start":343.804,"end":361.762,"text":"好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像"},{"start":362.864,"end":379.024,"text":"我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的"},{"start":379.505,"end":399.004,"text":"可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金它就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分"},{"start":400.145,"end":401.145,"text":"7224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎目前"},{"start":414.134,"end":441.178,"text":"我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦"},{"start":444.037,"end":465.967,"text":"我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正簡列裡面的話某個部分他的要去救安基金追回跟簡列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論"},{"start":466.547,"end":487.028,"text":"好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護"},{"start":488.65,"end":516.668,"text":"那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高"},{"start":517.709,"end":542.645,"text":"其實是差不多的24小時差不多3000多啦3000多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事辦計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是它其實目前設定的主要是針對"},{"start":543.706,"end":563.311,"text":"那些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會再比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照"},{"start":563.931,"end":593.246,"text":"或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計劃來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能"},{"start":593.806,"end":617.018,"text":"如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年 對多久"},{"start":623.31,"end":626.639,"text":"三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該"},{"start":629.912,"end":659,"text":"半年我們就會檢討半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的開幕對它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求是"},{"start":659.58,"end":667.826,"text":"好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說它到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝方委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時12分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天就勞動部就安基金違規使用的部分，我是希望未來不要再有類似的狀況。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：針對之前基金使用不當的狀況，我想請教。你們用就安基金去從事媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品，審計單位是不是說原本應該要放在公務預算裡面，但後來你們是使用就安基金？"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以審計認為關聯不高。"],["黃委員秀芳：今年或者明年，你們一些媒宣、文宣的部分，或者要辦什麼樣的勞工比賽，可能原本都用就安基金，未來如果就安基金不符合規定的話，你們要怎麼去用公務預算支應？公務預算如果又編不足的話，你們這些業務要怎麼執行？"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明，其實勞動部長期以來都有公務預算編列不足的狀況，當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理地爭取！至少在其他部會用公務預算的部分，請讓我們也可以編在公務預算裡面！過去其實常常我們的公務預算規模反而是縮減的，才會有一些業務項目變成是用就安基金來使用，那就會衍生產生爭議的問題。所以第一個，我們在就安基金的改革裡面，開宗明義就說希望能夠合理地爭取編列公務預算，這是第一點。第二點，我們也檢討了，很謝謝審計部給我們的指導，我們會完全遵照審計的指導來進行，可是我們也做了內部檢討。這個內部檢討包括我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題，所以我們也提出了就安基金強化管理的策進方案，我必須坦承說，我自己也覺得某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效率不佳的問題，我們也提出相關的檢討。剛剛很多委員也講到關於開口契約的問題，其實開口契約在去年12月的時候就完全停下來了，也就是現在的開口契約不能夠再像過去那樣子使用，範圍彈性過大，會不容易管理或不容易範定，所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中，而且已經改進了這部分，就是希望避免剛剛黃委員所講的，未來再發生類似的事情，我想這個大家都不樂意見到。所以我們用機制、用制度去杜絕過去大家可能不樂見的爭議，這是這一段時間我們部裡面很多公務同仁很努力的一個方向，現在也很有成果了。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們當然不希望再有類似的狀況，可是先決條件是原本需要做的一些業務經費，就要在公務預算編足，要不然公務預算沒有錢，讓就安基金變成小金庫，可以從那邊用預算來支付。然後你們辦的一些活動……我之前有參加過勞動部辦的勞工歌唱比賽，我有去看，但我沒有唱。對於勞工來說，很多勞工真的非常喜歡唱歌，當然不是只有勞工，所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌！如果又有一個舞臺的話，其實對勞工來講會非常開心。但就安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點……也就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的活動或正當的業務上，就會讓人家詬病！我覺得未來該做的還是要做。再來就是，公務預算該編足的你們就是要編足，不要再去挪用就安基金，就安基金可能有它更大的功能。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員，我想跟你說明，就安基金確實對我們很多勞工來說，不管是就業，不管是很多的勞工福祉，它非常非常重要。我們現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是，我們真的不希望就安基金再被外界誤解，或者是被外界某一種污名化！過去可能有一些爭議，但是我們已經澈底地檢討了！所以希望未來就安基金的使用能夠清清楚楚回到正軌，能夠拿來幫助勞工的，我們就好好地去使用，讓它能夠幫助勞工。勞工也不用因為錢來自就安基金，就覺得是不是來自不正當的地方？沒有！我們在機制上面都已經改革了，該做範定的、該限制的，我們就把它直接限制出來。"],["黃委員秀芳：就安基金可以使用的範圍在哪裡，我覺得你應該規範清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：好。我舉個例子，就像剛剛大家講到，我們現在是把就安基金使用在必須是直接服務勞工的那些地點，比方說就服站，比方說訓練中心，這是直接服務勞工的地方，這些地方的運作可以用就安基金，我們認為這些是用來幫助勞工，是有道理的。可是如果是我們的分署或署裡面或部裡面的行政支出，並不是直接服務勞工的，我們認為未來就不該使用就安基金，就該回到公務預算的編列去做使用。所以，是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的，至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，現在這7,224萬你們有說要用公務預算去歸墊？目前。"],["洪部長申翰：目前第一個，我們還是會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做，用公務預算編列來歸墊是過去被判定修正減列追回的時候的方法之一，但具體的做法我們還是可以跟行政院主計，包括跟審計來討論，只是過去以公務預算歸墊確實是做法之一。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果立法院又不同意的話，你們怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然還是希望儘量地說明，因為就目前審計判定的修正減列裡面，對於就安基金的追回跟減列，其實還是需要有一些經費來源，所以我們只能先儘量說明，但具體的做法我們會跟行政院再做討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。另外，我想請教部長，你們在4月7日宣布多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫，4月7日開始正式上路！我看到你們的服務計畫只編列35名看護，服務的金額就是24小時落在兩千六到三千五中間，跟一般移工的薪資，一般人聘請移工的薪資可能沒有那麼高，如果是申請臺籍看護的話，薪資是差不多的。"],["洪部長申翰：再更高。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實是差不多的，24小時差不多三千多，也是落在這中間。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟黃委員說明，這個計畫確實是一個小規模的試辦計畫，所以相關的規定也好，收費也好，未來當然還可以滾動的檢討來討論。但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是，它目前的設定主要是針對那些臨時、短期、緊急的需求，可是目前在自費市場上面，如果是看到這些臨時、短期、緊急的話，可能他的收費會比長時間再來得更高一點，所以我們目前主要是設定在這。比方說他從醫院出院還來不及接上長照，或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚地判定，沒有辦法申請到相關長照資源的，他可以用這個計畫來做短期的銜接，這是主要的目的，當然我知道外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考，就是說參考其他的，可能要去討論一下，因為有時候價格訂下去，如果訂得太高，一般的家庭是不是有辦法負荷？也許會造成其他的排擠啦！我覺得這個價格應該可以再去做一個討論。"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，你們在4月7日開始試辦，預計要試辦多久？"],["洪部長申翰：目前是試辦3年。"],["黃委員秀芳：多久？"],["洪部長申翰：3年。"],["黃委員秀芳：3年？你們多久會檢討一次？"],["洪部長申翰：半年我們就會檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：半年會檢討一次？因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊！只有編列35名看護。"],["洪部長申翰：對，它其實是一個小規模……"],["黃委員秀芳：這個規模就很小，我不知道到底會有多少人來申請這個，我覺得會存疑！"],["洪部長申翰：目前的6家機構，有一些相關的其實已經來申請了，從4月7日開始，已經陸陸續續有來申請。但確實他們都會有一些特定的需求，就是剛才說臨時、短期、緊急的一些需求。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我希望半年後，如果你們檢討完之後，也可以讓我們知道到底成效是怎樣。"],["洪部長申翰：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce164d78e197ab2b36a0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6be22361ff6ef9879315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:11:27 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好那現在開始對中國的關稅是課到這個104%"},{"start":225.779,"end":228.979,"text":"那我們還是有台商在那邊那這樣對台商的影響勒"},{"start":230.049,"end":258.644,"text":"我們大概希望是這樣子就是說在這件事件會影響到我們的台商在中國的台商或在東南亞的台商那我們可能就是有兩個方向來幫助他們第一個就協助他們轉移不賣到美國賣到其他的國家因為美國畢竟佔整個全球的貿易市場沒有那麼大所以他還有其他的市場可以去"},{"start":260.492,"end":283.126,"text":"去銷售這是幫助他第二個如果他的產品是以美國為重點那我們有兩個方式第一個就請他回來台灣製造台灣生產這個是優先第二個如果他是需要美國那邊的資源的他的市場跟資源都在美國那我們協助他"},{"start":284.207,"end":313.203,"text":"到美国去透过我的之前跟大家报告的境外关内也就是说由我们政府跟美国政府来共同成立一个管理机构协助我们台商可以快速的出海落地然后在那地方做一站式的我们做一站式的服务让他们可以避免一些行政上面往来的时间过去在美国要设一个工厂最快要四年"},{"start":314.482,"end":339.598,"text":"但是如果說我們用這個統一在這個行政的這樣的一個服務的話大概可以縮短成兩年對啊 那不短你這樣講是比較長期的耶大概要花一年到兩年的時間對 所以短期的話我們希望他轉移市場幫他調整訂單轉移市場或是另外一個 報告委員另外一個如果他的產品在美國由我們台灣的廠商在製造的"},{"start":340.979,"end":367.708,"text":"我們請他幫台灣的品牌做OEM然後他市場上面照樣用他自己的品牌去銷售但是製造請我們台商在美國的同業幫他製造這說得通嗎?通了嗎?通當然是通啊有跟他們講過了嗎?這個我們在之前我們在這件事情之前就已經跟很多的業者在討論"},{"start":369.298,"end":397.961,"text":"因為其實我們的網通設備我們的PC我們的筆電伺服器手機零件這個會受到很大的影響啊這個不見得我跟委員報告台灣的很多的廠商是做EMS他很多做EMS或是幫人家代工的所以那個稅是由美國的客戶在繳的所以你說這樣子課了104%的關稅對台灣的這些台商影響不大對台灣的才有對台灣的才有"},{"start":398.766,"end":402.072,"text":"好我最後問一下就是說對於經濟的影響這個"},{"start":405.353,"end":415.102,"text":"彭博他有說到 他說台灣對美國的出口可能會銳減63%導致對台灣GDP下滑約3.8% 這個劉主委是不是可以答一下因為他這個數字出來 其實還蠻震撼的其實目前我們有委託專業機構進行研究目前出來的數字是減少0.43到1.610.43到1.61 這是在"},{"start":431.716,"end":450.934,"text":"關稅確定32%之後算了嗎對確定關稅之後我們委外研究的我們現在是在委託另外一家研究機構做第二次的檢核所以沒有像這個像這個什麼彭博他們所講的這一個會掉了這麼多就對了對目前是出來的數字是沒有"},{"start":451.314,"end":453.837,"text":"好我再問最後就是其實這881比較是像是這一個讓台灣的廠商能夠渡過難關那我請問一下這881夠嗎"},{"start":464.117,"end":490.847,"text":"880億其實它是一個可以隨時在市狀況再進行調整的我是覺得是880億可能還不夠雖然我不知道說談判的情況是怎麼樣但是這個短時間你用880億因為我不知道這個數字最後怎麼算出來的700是屬於工業部門 180是屬於這個農業部門但是我直覺啦我直覺這個對廠商來講可能還不夠啦那你們有沒有想說這個再爭取再多一點部長"},{"start":493.766,"end":514.053,"text":"報告委員,我想881是我們有一個假設的稅率啦可能造成了這個影響所以我們大概881...你這假設的稅率是多少?這是我們有一個假設的,這個抱歉在這個地方不能夠來談因為現在還在談判嘛,所以這個部分只能X好不好X的話我們大概881是夠的,高於這個X"},{"start":517.95,"end":527.935,"text":"那881就像您所說的可能不夠我們會有第二次的特別預算所以是希望881就夠用就對了以下以下謝謝委員謝謝部長 謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時11分）謝謝主席。請經濟部郭部長及國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請郭部長、劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長跟主委都辛苦了。最近這幾天，為了美國關稅的事情，我相信大家都卯足全力在做這件事情。我在財政委員會，在關稅還沒有公布之前，不論是央行或是財政部，都沒有提到會課到32%這麼高的關稅，這個32%的關稅出來之後，有沒有超乎你們的預期？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，整體的因應小組來講，我們在評估的時候，有算到35%。"],["李委員坤城：有算到35%？"],["郭部長智輝：高標是35%。"],["李委員坤城：那你們高標的35%是按照川普這種方式算出來的嗎？因為他是算貿易逆差的啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我們有各種評估的方法。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們那時候算出來最高有到35%，但不是像川普這種算法就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["李委員坤城：川普這種算法有沒有在你們的評估裡面？"],["郭部長智輝：他是用一個比較舊的計算方式。"],["李委員坤城：比較舊的計算方式？"],["郭部長智輝：好像是1940年還是什麼時候的一個計算方式。"],["李委員坤城：好。那請教一下，早上很多委員都很關心，接下來要跟美國談判，4月9日12時起，臺灣的關稅其實就算是生效了嘛，我們就算是課32%了，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：今天開始出貨的就是32%。"],["李委員坤城：今天開始出貨到美國的就是算32%？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["李委員坤城：你剛剛有提到，有在船上的，還有之前已經出貨的，有一個時間的算法就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["李委員坤城：好。那請問一下，現在我們跟美國的談判，我剛剛看有委員在問，說已經有接上線了，而且是排在前面在談的。"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然在這個line上面，我們應該是排在前面，但是還沒有正式談。"],["李委員坤城：還沒有正式談？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，其實川普的算法也很簡單，貿易逆差這麼大，他要的就是幾個：第一個，多買美國貨；第二個，減少逆差，擴大去美國投資。就這兩點的話，目前我們做什麼樣的準備？"],["郭部長智輝：我們擴大買美國的東西，這個部分我想我們都有在盤點，然後實際依照國內的情形，以不傷害國內廠商的利益為主，來擴大對美國的採購，因為我們採購的東西不是只有美國一個國家，我們有很多跟其他國家採購的東西，我們可以稍微在這上面做一些調整。民間企業的部分，我們比較沒有算到這一次，但是我們國營的企業、我們的機構所需要的採購，我們可以調整方向，比如說大家可能關心能源的問題，能源可以供給的國家滿多的，所以在目前的這個階段，我們就是擴大對美國的採購。"],["李委員坤城：比如說，像天然氣。"],["郭部長智輝：比如說，像天然氣，其他的部分也有。"],["李委員坤城：OK，好。現在開始，對中國的關稅是課到104%，但我們還是有臺商在那邊，這樣對臺商的影響呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概希望是這樣子，這件事件會影響到在中國的臺商或在東南亞的臺商，我們可能有兩個方向來幫助他們，第一個就是協助他們轉移，不賣到美國，賣到其他的國家，因為美國畢竟占整個全球的貿易市場沒有那麼大，所以還有其他的市場可以去銷售，這是幫助他們。第二個，如果他的產品是以美國為重點，那我們有兩個方式，第一個就是請他回來臺灣製造，臺灣生產，這個是優先。第二個，如果他是需要美國那邊的資源的，他的市場跟資源都在美國，那我們協助他到美國去，透過我之前跟大家報告的境外關內，也就是說，由我們政府跟美國政府共同成立一個管理機構，協助我們臺商可以快速地出海落地，然後在那個地方，我們做一站式的服務，讓他們可以避免一些行政上面往來的時間。過去在美國要設一個工廠最快要4年，但是如果我們用統一在行政方面提供這樣的一個服務的話，大概可以縮短成2年。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，部長，你這樣講是比較長期的，大概要花一年到兩年的時間。"],["郭部長智輝：對。所以短期的話，我們希望他轉移市場，幫他調整訂單，轉移市場。另外一個，如果他的產品在美國有我們臺灣的廠商在製造的，我們請他幫臺灣的品牌做OEM，然後他在市場上面照樣用他自己的品牌去銷售，但是在製造方面，請我們臺商在美國的同業幫他製造。"],["李委員坤城：這樣說得通嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：通啊，當然是通啊。"],["李委員坤城：有跟他們講過了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在這件事情的之前，就已經跟很多的業者在討論。"],["李委員坤城：其實我們的網通設備、PC、筆電、伺服器、手機、零件會受到很大的影響。"],["郭部長智輝：這個不見得。我跟委員報告，臺灣很多廠商是做EMS，很多是做EMS或是幫人家代工，所以那個稅是由美國的客戶在繳的。"],["李委員坤城：所以你說課了104%的關稅對臺灣這些臺商的影響不大？"],["郭部長智輝：對中國的沒有，對臺灣的才有。"],["李委員坤城：對臺灣的才有？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["李委員坤城：好。我最後問一下，對於經濟的影響，彭博有說到，臺灣對美國的出口可能會銳減63%，導致臺灣GDP下滑約3.8%。針對這個，劉主委是不是可以答一下？因為這個數字出來其實還滿令人震撼的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實目前我們有委託專業機構進行研究，目前出來的數字是減少0.43%到1.61%。"],["李委員坤城：0.43%到1.61%，這是在關稅確定32%最後算的嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。確定關稅之後，我們委外研究的，我們現在是再委託另外一家研究機構做第二次的檢核。"],["李委員坤城：所以沒有像彭博所講的，會掉得這麼多就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。目前出來的數字是沒有。"],["李委員坤城：好。我再問，其實這880億比較像是讓臺灣的廠商能夠渡過難關，那我請問一下，這880億夠嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：880億其實是可以隨時視狀況再進行調整的。"],["李委員坤城：我是覺得880億可能還不夠，雖然我不知道談判的情況是怎麼樣，但是短時間內用880億，我覺得可能不夠。我不知道這個數字最後是怎麼算出來的，700億是屬於工業部門，180億是屬於農業部門，但是以我的直覺，我覺得這個對廠商來講可能還不夠，你們有沒有想再爭取多一點？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想880億是我們有一個假設的稅率可能造成的影響，所以我們大概880億就夠了。"],["李委員坤城：你說假設稅率是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有個假設，抱歉，在這個地方不能夠說，因為現在還在談判嘛，所以這個部分只能用X來代替，好不好？"],["李委員坤城：OK。"],["郭部長智輝：用X來算的話，我們大概880億是夠的，如果高於X，那880億就像您所說的可能不夠，我們會有第二次的特別預算。"],["李委員坤城：所以是希望880億夠用就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：以下。"],["李委員坤城：以下？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。謝謝部長、謝謝主委。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請鍾佳濱委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員其實我們這個事情不是現在才做其實在去年我們就整個清查所有陸配還沒有繳交除籍證明的這一些人因為如果依照兩岸關係條例9條1那時候的規範他必須在"},{"start":93.404,"end":114.066,"text":"台灣地區人民在大陸地區取得戶籍或者使用大陸護照他必須放棄在六個月之內在當時的立法的時候去年什麼時候開始我們去年下半年開始我們就根據這一些因為現在處置的方式是如何"},{"start":114.446,"end":137.928,"text":"是要請還沒有我們至少他沒有檢據放棄原籍證明的這些陸配他必須要來補正相關資料沒有補正的話無法補正的情況會怎麼樣其實在無法補正我們也正在跟陸委會在做一個協調我們針對所謂他因故無法"},{"start":138.829,"end":163.838,"text":"去回到大陸也可能他是因為年紀比較大或者身體的一個健康狀況所以導致他無法回去那這些事情我們現在其實移民署我們已經有所謂的設立專線還有專友提供民眾政府的專線確定可以處理事情嗎我們是要把"},{"start":164.895,"end":189.245,"text":"民眾他這一些沒有辦法回去提示這一些除疾證明的這些人把他們困難點回饋給我們我們彙整各種態樣它是什麼樣的一個狀態那處理的標準是什麼當然現在正在做所以我們希望說所以還沒有標準還在那沒有標準的話你們處置的方式已經出來了嗎"},{"start":191.077,"end":219.939,"text":"這幾個月內沒有完成會怎麼樣現在目前是三個月之內那如果說看民眾的一個那你太陽的規則標準都還沒有出來就已經準備先處置了嗎應該我們還在研議那這個時間應該先豁免一下吧各種太陽不同的話要如何處置你要一個standard出來嘛你不能說現在立刻就來執行三個月的事情嘛"},{"start":221.226,"end":222.05,"text":"那梁副主委也有什麼話要說"},{"start":224.395,"end":252.457,"text":"應該是這樣 我們根據法律原則上我們會要求凡是沒有繳交的都要繳交這是原則那現在我們收到有一些民眾他陳情說他有什麼困難他沒辦法回去拿那針對這些陳情的個案我們會個別來甄別但是我也要跟委員報告這個事情並不是從現在才開始就像副署長講的從去年就開始清查"},{"start":254.258,"end":266.191,"text":"那在清查過程之中有一些也不是現在才有人說他沒辦法回去但是有一些狀況是他可能當事人講的不一定是真實的狀況"},{"start":268.488,"end":291.393,"text":"有些當事人他只是不願意或是懶得回去或他不願意花機票錢或者說他在大陸有欠債或是刑事責任等等這些所以這些東西不能一概而論那我們的原則上就是大家所以副主委剛剛有說明到有很多不同的態樣但請把它條列化出來好不好"},{"start":292.948,"end":305.734,"text":"條例畫出來讓大家有一個讓人民幸福的一個準則法律比較很清楚的條例是我們可以盡量去做但是因為陳情的樣態其實千變萬化"},{"start":308.976,"end":335.111,"text":"千變萬化政府存在不就要處理這些問題嗎那你到目前為止我們比較可以有共識的譬如說你是因為長期臥病在床健康因素你沒有辦法回去拿這個部分我覺得應該是會比較有共識但是其他的部分他說有很多各式各樣的理由那我們不一定都會採納梁副主委"},{"start":336.721,"end":365.404,"text":"我想不是今天的詢問而已 這個問題受到大眾的矚目請你們去商量以後條例是很明確的公告周知 讓大家有所預詢的方向那個主席我想這個事情啊本席從今天早上聽到現在啊不能這樣含糊過關啊一個很清楚的方式是什麼要讓人民能夠知曉"},{"start":368.411,"end":391.619,"text":"我們會再開會也請陸委會還有移民署要很明確的遊戲規則讓我們了解我梁副主委我本席在這裡很清楚請教一個問題我們現在是把一萬四千名陸配所有不管任何年限現在都要繳交是嗎"},{"start":393.131,"end":418.468,"text":"根據法律是的那請問你法律什麼時候訂的2004年修改的3月1號對那2004年3月1號以前的呢法律規定就是2004年那次修改之前如果他沒有繳交初期證明的話他就必須要在六個月之內繳交如果他在六個月之內沒有繳交就是取消台灣的身份"},{"start":419.642,"end":446.33,"text":"法律規定就是這樣2004年3月1號加6個月9月1號9月1號以後你如果入委會還沒有執行你秘書也還沒有執行是不是也過了已經追溯年限了就算大家當時拿一個假的來都已經超過了追溯期的20年"},{"start":449.422,"end":475.692,"text":"2004年9月1號到現在是多少年那個報告委員從我們兩岸關係條例來講這個不能有雙重身份這件事情沒有什麼追溯年限的問題你就算過了50年你有雙重身份還是不許剛剛這個秘書來puzzle你一下那這一點為什麼之前都沒有公告周知呢"},{"start":477.035,"end":491.828,"text":"這是政府的疏失啊政府的疏失應該自行承受啊怎麼叫老百姓來承擔呢政府官員廢職職務從2004年修法到現在 這中間兩黨輪流執政現在梁副主委 本席現在要求你"},{"start":503.393,"end":518.329,"text":"沒有關係 哪一個黨都有疏失但是不可以規則於人民就這麼簡單所以未來要如何執行請回去把確切的準則公告周知 可以嗎"},{"start":520.681,"end":546.315,"text":"這個部分我們會去研究但是我還是在跟委員報告因為陳情的理由有各式各樣有些是真的有些是假的政府存在的價值不就處理各式各樣人的問題嗎本席在這裡已經請陸委會跟移民署把這個事情早日承來落定有沒有任何補救的措施跟辦法"},{"start":547.697,"end":574.069,"text":"要一併公告好不好來 請那個部長鄭部長鄭部長 麻煩部長 三年關兩年罵歷史上主要留下你的痕跡啊您覺得你擔任部長到現在"},{"start":576.051,"end":595.669,"text":"臺灣的言論自由是更加的自由還是更加的緊縮我們臺灣的自由程度是在亞洲是言論自由這個是言論自由是亞洲第二在整個美國自由自家的一個評比所以你從520就職到現在十個月"},{"start":596.909,"end":620.324,"text":"你認為我們的言論自由是增加的充分的被保障 依照法律來保障沒有關係 那本席來慢慢請教為什麼 為什麼台灣現在是應該要不分族群 不分意識形態應該好好團結的時刻結果卻有發生"},{"start":627.008,"end":651.91,"text":"這個各種啊對言論前置的危機已經公開的發生而且這個危機不是一兩個人在講是大家都在講那個部長 本期請教一下齁這個中研院啊陳培哲等75位啊"},{"start":653.012,"end":681.662,"text":"學者聯合聲明 聲明什麼部長 請把聲明告訴我們好嗎這個寫在簡報上對 你可以啊 參考一下 也跟大家分享一下這個是總召提供的 沒有關係你可以照你自己找到的也可以那個市長幫他Google一下嘛 沒有關係嘛75位學者聯合聲明什麼事情"},{"start":689.279,"end":715.244,"text":"這個是整個中央學者的一個聲明我們就尊重聲明的內容是什麼聲明內容這裡面有寫這個不是我講的部長他說什麼你參考一下跟大家分享一下這個裡面有寫的不用我講這個大家都看到了所以部長你有這個勇氣"},{"start":717.108,"end":743.275,"text":"面對啊各界的質疑你要有承擔跟接受挑戰的勇氣嘛已經講了嘛為什麼這麼多偏綠的學者都已經講了嘛這個戒嚴時代啊思想審查機制啊已經到了台灣的上空啊嚴重破壞台灣民主法治的發展"},{"start":746.058,"end":773.332,"text":"部長這是你第一張成績單啊算是偏綠的學者啊發表的聲明啊所以啊 部長鄭楠榮先生是哪一天是我們鄭楠榮先生我們言論自由的紀念日是哪一天4月7日啊 4月7日 好謝謝你啊你還讓全國國人知道"},{"start":774.352,"end":796.543,"text":"我們現在為了紀念鄭若龍先生所以言論自由我們是紀念日而不是追悼日言論自由的紀念日不是追悼日本席在這裡再跟部長言論自由這是民主最可貴的地方"},{"start":798.168,"end":826.11,"text":"不管你主張台獨你主張統一你主張維持現狀這個都是各種言論的自由都可以表達本席請教部長你應該常常要網絡要收集各方的資訊對不對語情觀察對不對是嗎這部分會我們語情會有一些的注意啦應該部長嘛日理萬機要了解語情嘛對不對"},{"start":827.967,"end":845.818,"text":"不管是有線新聞網也好還是網媒也好我想部長應該都常常在涉獵訊息對不對是嗎 這個我們都會注意部長 你有沒有發現本席被青衣社的綠媒 綠網 綠嘴 綠團"},{"start":855.319,"end":879.857,"text":"你看 這麼多人關心言論自由 連那個都飛進來了部長 北西被罵了三四個月北西只有兩個字 各種言論尊重這就是中華民國民主可貴的地方大家可以有不同的政治立場 但是我們要彼此的尊重"},{"start":882.813,"end":903.499,"text":"部長你的成績單除了剛剛中研院的院士以外我不曉得你從哪裡去看到是用多少的業配去找來的這個這個所謂的國外的評比TBS剛做的這個民調你了解嗎TBS剛做的民調你了解嗎"},{"start":905.973,"end":933.751,"text":"TBS剛做的民調我們的言論有沒有自由有沒有更加的開放還是更加的限縮部長您上台以後現在我們言論自由認為限縮的人高達86.7%這不是本席做的民調這TBS公開的民調部長這是你的成績單我們國家的司法"},{"start":934.721,"end":963.499,"text":"已經逾越了自由這個我不同意沒有關係同不同意因為這個是一個很客觀的數字啦因為不是本席做的這是我在網路上看到的你可以去質疑TBS沒有關係啦那個部長不過還是要跟您共勉之啦這個福爾泰啊我們法國的哲學家我想你也都非常了解"},{"start":964.813,"end":988.585,"text":"我可以不同意你的觀點但我誓死捍衛你說話的權利部長認不認同認不認同這個是胡爾泰講的我是認同好 謝謝這就是民主社會那最後呢我想今天啊言論自由既然是今天主要的課題"},{"start":990.017,"end":1013.286,"text":"所以本席一定要在最後最關鍵的拜託一下部長挺直腰桿政治司法不要介入言論的自由政治司法不要介入言論的自由看一下美國開國的國父"},{"start":1018.874,"end":1043.023,"text":"George Washington為什麼一個政權要禁止言論自由只有三個解釋第一個 他過去做了什麼壞事怕人們提起第二個 他現在正在幹什麼壞事怕人們批評第三個 他準備做什麼壞事怕人民揭露所以 拜託一下部長"},{"start":1044.736,"end":1060.431,"text":"言論自由是我們民主國家我們要合乎到憲法言論自由是憲法保障的基準權利但是也要23條憲法23條的一些的法律上的這個也是"},{"start":1061.111,"end":1084.118,"text":"那我想大法官解釋也對這樣就充分的做樣的一個解釋了我想我們都充分的保障這些法律及憲法一旨的言論自由我想這個是可以所以我們台灣才會成為世界被公認的言論自由國家部長又提到世界你又再次拉到世界本席更加的敬佩你啊再拉到世界"},{"start":1085.239,"end":1108.911,"text":"我們再次的強調聯合國的人權宣言兩公約言論自由是必須得到充分的保障不需要太多太多的干涉好不好那今天我想今天召委排這個課程跟部長共享 分享好不好三尼瓜兩尼莫當來的時候意氣風發"},{"start":1115.083,"end":1133.115,"text":"等我工作結束的時候 要讓人家常常的很思念懷念你我想公共生涯就是這樣 好不好 公平之謝謝好 那剛剛那個陸委會還有那個移民署剛剛委員有提到要你們準備的東西再麻煩你們提供給委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時59分）主席，是不是請陸委會、移民署？"],["主席：請陸委會、移民署。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：兩位首長，這幾天有件事引發軒然大波，在我們國家面臨全世界核彈級經貿危機的時候，連賴總統、卓院長都希望朝野一起共赴國難，此時此刻，對於14萬名陸配是否有放棄國籍證明這個事情，現在決定要怎麼做？"],["陳副署長建成：謝謝委員，這件事情不是現在才做，其實去年我們就開始清查還沒有繳交除籍證明的陸配，因為依照兩岸關係條例第九條之一的規範，臺灣地區人民在大陸地區取得戶籍或者使用大陸護照，必須在六個月之內放棄，當時的立法內容就是這樣。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年什麼時候開始清查？"],["陳副署長建成：我們去年下半年就開始根據這個規定清查，因為……"],["傅委員崐萁：現在處置的方式如何？"],["陳副署長建成：還沒有檢具放棄原籍證明的這些陸配，他們必須要來補正相關資料。"],["傅委員崐萁：無法補正會怎麼樣？"],["陳副署長建成：如果無法補正，我們也正在和陸委會進行協調，針對因故無法回到大陸者，可能因為年紀比較大，或者是身體的健康狀況，所以導致他無法回去等等，其實現在移民署已經設立專線和專郵，提供民眾……"],["傅委員崐萁：政府的專線確定可以處理事情嗎？"],["陳副署長建成：我們是針對沒有辦法回去，提示除籍證明的這些人，把他們的困難點回饋給我們，我們會彙整各種態樣，例如他是什麼樣的狀態……"],["傅委員崐萁：處理的標準是什麼？"],["陳副署長建成：因為現在正在做，所以我們希望……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以現在還沒有標準？"],["陳副署長建成：還在討論當中。"],["傅委員崐萁：但是你們處置的方式已經有了嘛！"],["陳副署長建成：還沒有。"],["傅委員崐萁：幾個月內沒有完成會怎麼樣？"],["陳副署長建成：目前是限期三個月之內。看民眾的反映……"],["傅委員崐萁：態樣、規則、標準都還沒有提出，你們就準備要先處置了嗎？"],["陳副署長建成：我們還在研議。"],["傅委員崐萁：那這個時間應該先豁免吧！"],["陳副署長建成：這部分我們會和陸委會討論。"],["傅委員崐萁：各種不同的態樣要如何處置，你們要有一個standard嘛！"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：你們不能現在、立刻就以三個月為期限執行這件事。梁副主委有什麼話要說？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣的，根據法律，原則上我們會要求，凡是沒有繳交的都要繳交，這是原則。現在我們收到一些民眾陳情，說他有什麼困難沒辦法回去拿，針對這些陳情的個案，我們會個別甄別。但是我也要向委員報告，這件事情並不是現在才開始做，就像副署長說的，去年就開始清查。","在清查過程之中，也不是現在才有人說他沒辦法回去，但是有時候當事人說的不一定是真實的狀況，例如有些當事人只是不願意或懶得回去，或他不願意花機票錢，或者他在大陸有欠債或是刑事責任等等，所以這件事不能一概而論，我們的原則就是大家……"],["傅委員崐萁：副主委，剛剛副署長有說明，可能有很多不同態樣，請你們把它條列化，好不好？讓人民有一個信服的準則，法律必須清楚的條列。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們可以儘量做，但是因為陳情的樣態千變萬化……"],["傅委員崐萁：政府的存在不就是要處理這些問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：到目前為止，我們比較有共識的，例如你是因為長期臥病在床的健康因素沒有辦法回去，這個部分我覺得應該會比較有共識，至於其他各式各樣的理由，我們不一定都會採納。"],["傅委員崐萁：梁副主委，不只是今天的詢答而已，這個問題受到大眾矚目，請你們商量以後，條列式、明確的公告周知，讓大家有依循的方向。主席，本席從今天早上聽到現在，這件事情不能這樣含糊過關，要有一個很清楚的方式，而且要讓人民能夠知曉。我們會再召開會議，也請陸委會、移民署提出明確的遊戲規則讓我們了解。","梁副主委，本席要請教一個問題，現在這14萬名陸配，不管年限如何都要繳交，是嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：根據法律，是的。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問這項法律是什麼時候訂定的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：2004年修改的。"],["傅委員崐萁：3月1日。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：那2004年3月1日以前的呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：法律規定就是2004年修法之前，如果他沒有繳交除籍證明的話，就必須在六個月之內繳交。如果他在六個月之內沒有繳交就會被取消臺灣的身分，法律規定就是這樣。"],["傅委員崐萁：2004年3月1日加6個月，就是9月1日。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：9月1日以後，如果陸委會沒有執行，移民署也沒有執行，是不是就過了追溯年限？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我不能……"],["傅委員崐萁：就算他當時拿了一份假的證明，也已經超過20年的追溯期。2004年9月1日到現在是經過多少年？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：從兩岸關係條例來說，不能有雙重身分這件事情沒有追溯年限的問題，就算過了50年，還是不允許你有雙重身分。"],["傅委員崐萁：這是剛剛秘書告訴你的，是吧？這一點為什麼之前沒有公告周知呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們覺得這是根本原則。"],["傅委員崐萁：這是政府的疏失啊！政府的疏失應該自行承受啊！怎麼是讓老百姓承擔呢？是政府官員廢弛職務。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我必須這樣說，從2004年修法到現在，這中間兩黨輪流執政，所以現在……"],["傅委員崐萁：梁副主委，沒有關係，哪一個黨都有疏失，但是不可以歸責於人民，就這麼簡單。所以未來要如何執行，請你們回去之後把確切的準則公告周知，可以嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分我們會去研究。但我還是要再向委員報告，因為陳情的理由各式各樣，有些是真的，有些是假的……"],["傅委員崐萁：政府存在的價值不就是處理各式各樣人的問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡請陸委會和移民署早日讓這個事情塵埃落定，有沒有任何補救的措施和辦法也要一併公告。請部長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，三年官、兩年滿，歷史會留下你的痕跡啊！您擔任部長到現在，臺灣的言論是更加自由，還是更加緊縮？"],["鄭部長銘謙：臺灣的自由程度在亞洲是……"],["傅委員崐萁：言論自由。"],["鄭部長銘謙：言論自由是亞洲第二，這是美國自由之家的評比。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你從520就職到現在，這10個月，你認為我們的言論自由程度是增加的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依照法律，充分的被保障。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，本席慢慢請教。臺灣現在應該是不分族群、不分意識形態好好團結的時刻，結果卻發生各種對言論箝制的危機，這些已經公開發生，而且這個危機不是一、兩個人在議論而已，是大家都在說。部長，本席請教一下，中研院陳培哲等75位學者發表聯合聲明，他們聲明什麼？部長，請把聲明的內容告訴我們，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有寫在簡報上。"],["傅委員崐萁：你可以參考一下，也和大家分享一下嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是總召提供的，所以這個部分……"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，你也可以依照你自己找到的說明。司長，幫他google一下，好嗎？75位學者聯合聲明什麼事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是中研院學者的聲明，這部分我們尊重。"],["傅委員崐萁：聲明的內容是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡面有寫到聲明的內容。這個不是我說的嘛！"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，他們說了什麼？你參考一下嘛！和大家分享一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我看了，也知道了。這裡面有寫，不用我說嘛！大家都看到了。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，你要有這個勇氣嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是尊重……"],["傅委員崐萁：面對各界的質疑，你要有承擔和接受挑戰的勇氣嘛！這麼多偏綠的學者都說了，戒嚴時代的思想審查機制已經到了臺灣的上空，嚴重破壞臺灣民主法治的發展。部長，這是你第一張成績單，而且這是偏綠學者發表的聲明。我們言論自由的紀念日是哪一天？"],["鄭部長銘謙：4月7日。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝你啊！你讓全國國人知道，我們為了紀念鄭南榕先生，所以將言論自由訂為紀念日，而不是追悼日。本席要再向部長強調，言論自由是民主最可貴的地方，不管你主張臺獨、主張統一或主張維持現狀，這都是言論自由，都可以表達。請教部長，你應該經常需要蒐集各方資訊，輿情觀察，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會注意輿情啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：部長日理萬機，也要了解輿情嘛！對不對？不管是有線新聞網也好，還是網媒也好，部長應該常常涉獵其中的訊息，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們都會注意。"],["傅委員崐萁：好。部長，你有沒有發現，本席被清一色的綠媒、綠網、綠嘴、綠團謾罵，你看，這麼多人關心言論自由，連蜜蜂都飛進來。雖然本席被罵了三、四個月，但本席只有兩個字，對於各種言論就是尊重，這就是中華民國民族可貴的地方，大家可以有不同的政治立場，但是我們要彼此尊重。","部長，你的成績單除了剛剛中研院院士發表的聯合聲明以外，本席不曉得你是花了多少業配費才找來所謂的國外評比。TVBS剛做的這個民調，您了解嗎？我們的言論有沒有自由？是更加開放還是更加限縮？部長，您上台以後，現在我們的言論自由，認為限縮的人高達86.7%，這不是本席做的民調，是TVBS公開的民調，這是您的成績單，我們國家的司法已經逾越了自由。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不同意。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，不管你同不同意都一樣，因為這是一個很客觀的數字，而且這也不是本席做的，是本席在網路上看到的，你可以去質疑TVBS。部長，不過本席還是要和您共勉之啦！這是法國哲學家伏爾泰的名言，你應該也非常了解，「我可以不同意你的觀點，但我誓死捍衛你說話的權利。」部長認不認同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是伏爾泰說的，我是認同的。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝，這就是民主社會。最後，言論自由既然是今天主要的課題，所以本席一定要在最後、最關鍵的時候拜託一下部長，你要挺直腰桿，政治、司法不要介入言論自由。美國開國國父George 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那我就想說請上一頁"},{"start":88.277,"end":108.33,"text":"但在上一頁當中所看到的是說電子資訊產品在這邊有792億的這個美元當中這邊可不可以請部長說明一下這個部分你再點一下是不是這就是大部分都是屬於我們的是不是屬於真的是半成品你可以大致說一下嗎就是在剛才或是剛才的那幾類七八類當中"},{"start":110.273,"end":123.111,"text":"報告委員我想這裡面呢因為電子資訊的產品它是屬於零組件的部分那像這個顯示卡這個伺服器也都是在某一個部分的一個這個"},{"start":125.374,"end":152.54,"text":"組件所以這一部分這些金額其實都是台灣的優勢商品都是台灣的優勢商品也就是說是美國的廠商委託台灣的業者幫他製造的所以這個32%的稅金只有兩個現象一個就是美國的廠商自己吸收第二個我們會幫助他們走這個9903的這個特別條款"},{"start":155.113,"end":177.367,"text":"這個條款裡面上面有寫明註明只要這裡面有20%這個美國的成分那麼它就可以豁免所以我們是在找各種的方法幫助台灣的業者可以暫時不適用這樣的一個條款第二個呢有很多的廠商他比較擔心那我現在已經出貨了會不會打碎"},{"start":178.227,"end":198.34,"text":"我剛才有聽過的我們要往下一頁我剛才很高興聽到部長您有說到就是說尤其是在電子自動產品當中是屬於半成品的地方很多那也就試著要爭取說有這20%是屬於美國製造的這部分的話那就是用貨品關稅那就是我下一頁的地方就是要談到的是在說就是請大家"},{"start":199.501,"end":222.664,"text":"經濟部或是我們國家在做對美的這個談判當中要加重這一邊尤其這個互補性這部分呢那是全球供應業的角色在台灣裡面的不可或缺所以已經往這邊降低關稅或爭取豁免我覺得國家政府這邊往這邊做是值得肯定的好謝謝然後在下一個部分呢我想要談的這個重點在於說因為您在報告當中有提到就是在下來部分下下"},{"start":224.059,"end":246.074,"text":"重點在於說要去增加因為增加說對多元的一種配備這個多元開拓市場就對了因為從這個資料剛剛看到了2018年的時候其實是有大概是大概是40%左右的這樣子的一個對中跟對美那後來中有向下來那美國又上升的"},{"start":246.454,"end":267.541,"text":"但是現在2024年的時候呢我們看到的是它已經增加到的是43%增加多了所以你這多元分散其中還是在集中在中國跟美國的情況之下呢這個部分是在把雞蛋放在一個籃子上面那我想要詢問的是說既然這是有100億要作為開拓的多元市場那請問新市場的這個對象國"},{"start":269.662,"end":281.457,"text":"是在哪裡那這樣我們有競爭力嗎這是我的重點我們在新市場的地方大概是放在三個地方第一個就是歐洲第二個印度土耳其哇"},{"start":282.352,"end":302.371,"text":"好謝謝這是非常好那基本上真的很可行那現在就是目標性就往這邊去就對了是好謝謝那非常好知道得到這個看到讓廠商會有這樣的一個希望那另外我們再往下看齁這個部分我想要請國防會主委劉主委請你上台一下那同樣就是這個部長你請在旁邊這部分劉主委"},{"start":303.152,"end":321.409,"text":"那同樣的情況之下問一下那對於這邊也是說要調整供應鏈嘛這是國發會的報告嘛那這種情況之下你跟經濟部的合作分工狀況是怎麼樣還有在要特別提升AI競爭力那國科會當中呢也有不然就講國科會的分工好了就請你做跟經濟部的分工是怎麼樣"},{"start":323.598,"end":341.503,"text":"我們是做中長期整理計畫之後我們就會跟經濟部、國科會、速發部這些只要在這個計畫內有相關的部會我們都會進行協商、分工、執行然後我們國安會是負責整合的部分所以您是做整合的部分那請問你們預算是多少呢?"},{"start":343.088,"end":359.181,"text":"現在這整個預算還在規劃之中那我們規劃完之後會跟院提出來一個整體的計畫報告之後我們就會會有預算的需求就會提出希望說下禮拜 而是說禮拜五的時候就看到行政院長報告之後可能有出現"},{"start":359.841,"end":380.375,"text":"好那在下一個部分的時候也是兩位的報告兩個部會的部分報告當中就提出要增加所謂的補助研發的這個轉型那經濟部長就說您這兩百億有當作是加值台灣的中小型企業嘛那這邊我也想要請問的是說那這個部分跟國科會當中的百工百業數位轉型我覺得這方向是對的那你們怎麼進行請部長"},{"start":384.076,"end":401.341,"text":"在這部分200億的重點我們其實是放在我們的法人機構法人機構在做一些這個發展跟製造的部分在develop包括工研院包括我們的金屬工芯然後我們過去只是教"},{"start":403.502,"end":420.897,"text":"讓這個業者學但是我們要讓他習跟做就是讓他學習然後會操作新的這個技術這個是我們重點所以我們要建立很多的這個習作的場域跟買很多可以AI使用的這個設備其實我們有一個轉型的這個資料這個我們大概如果這個委員有"},{"start":426.942,"end":450.895,"text":"希望經濟部提供給我來做參考謝謝同樣的問國發會這邊你們是有提升AI競爭力提升船廠的經費這部分國發會這邊也是屬於整合嗎還是扮演什麼角色還有您跟4月4號3號之前的AI競爭力有什麼不同因為被人家說是舊瓶裝新瓶舊酒裝新瓶而已"},{"start":454.376,"end":479.967,"text":"這個是是這樣子的這個本來就我們就有編列公務預算在執行這個部分那我們還是以國家費還是整合的單位那還是由部會來實際執行那這個但是因為針對對等關稅的影響我們會擴大這個部分的支出跟方案那經費還是還沒有預算盤點我們希望對我們現在在爭取更多的預算來做這件事"},{"start":480.476,"end":488.951,"text":"所以在特別預算的部分要加入對不對對 我們希望是這樣好 那就謝謝兩位部會首長這邊非常辛苦來做一個這樣的分析解說 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":964,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（12時3分）主席，我要請經濟部的郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：郭部長，辛苦了，你上午都在備詢。今天我們看到，你會到這邊報告，最重要的就是因為美國對我們提出對等關稅的要求。上個禮拜也看到卓榮泰政府已經有提供880億特別預算這樣的一個因應對策，其中經濟部有410億，對吧？這個情況之下，我想要詢問的是，臺灣對美國的貿易概況當中，最主要的大概有七、八樣產業在資通、電子零組件這一部分，已經占大概65%。從經濟日報上面的1篇報導當中呈現出來的，我們跟其他國家很不一樣的是，我們很多是屬於半成品，在電子資訊產品這部分有792億美元。可不可以請部長說明一下，這個部分你再點一下，這部分是不是真的屬於半成品？你可以大致說一下，我說的就是剛才那七、八類。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這裡面電子資訊的產品是屬於零組件，像顯示卡、伺服器也都是某一個部分的組件，這一部分其實都是臺灣的優勢商品。也就是說，是美國的廠商委託臺灣的業者幫他們製造的，所以這個32%的稅金只有兩個現象，一個就是美國的廠商自己吸收，第二個，我們會幫助他們走9903的特別條款，這個條款裡面上面有寫明註明，只要這裡面有20%美國的成分就可以豁免關稅，所以我們在找各種方法幫助臺灣的業者，可以暫時不適用這樣的一個條款。","第二，有很多廠商比較擔心的是，現在已經出貨了，會不會被課關稅……"],["劉委員書彬：這部分我剛才有聽過了。我剛才很高興聽到部長說到，在電子資通產品當中屬於半成品的部分很多，也試著要爭取有20%屬於美國製造的產品豁免關稅。這就是我接下來要談到的，就是請經濟部，或國家代表在對美的談判當中要加重這一點，要提到有些產品的互補性，在全球供應鏈的角色，在臺灣的不可或缺。所以已經往這方向請求降低關稅或爭取豁免，我覺得國家政府往這個方向來做是值得肯定的。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["劉委員書彬：在下一個部分我想要談的重點是，您在報告當中有提到多元開拓市場，從資料當中可以看到，2018年的時候，其實有大概40%左右的對中跟對美的出口，後來對中的部分有降下來，對美國是上升的，但是在2024年的時候，已經增加到43%了，所以你的多元分散，還是集中在中國跟美國，這個部分是要把雞蛋放在一個籃子。我想要詢問的是，既然有100億要用來開拓多元市場，那請問：新市場的對象是在哪裡？我們有競爭力嗎？這是我的重點。"],["郭部長智輝：我們開拓新市場大概是放在三個地方，第一個就是歐洲，第二個是印度，第三個是土耳其。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。這個非常好，基本上真的可行，現在目標就是往這邊去就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。非常好，看到這個會讓廠商有一個希望。","另外，我想要請教國發會主委，劉主委，請你上台一下，請部長站在旁邊。同樣的情況之下，問一下，國發會的報告也是說要調整供應鏈，在這種情況之下，你跟經濟部的合作分工狀況是怎麼樣？在同一份報告中特別提到提升AI競爭力，我們先講跟國科會的分工好了，請問，國科會跟經濟部的分工是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們做中長期整體計畫之後，就會跟經濟部、國科會、數發部等，只要是在這個計畫內有相關的部會，我們都會進行協商，分工執行，然後我們國發會是負責整合的部分跟計畫的督導。"],["劉委員書彬：所以你是做整合的部分，請問你們的預算是多少呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在這整個預算還在規劃之中，我們規劃完之後會跟院提出一個整體的計畫報告，之後我們就會有預算的需求，就會提出來。"],["劉委員書彬：希望在下禮拜或這個禮拜五就看到行政院長的報告可能出現。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["劉委員書彬：在兩個部會的報告當中提出要增加補助研發轉型，經濟部長有說這200億就當作是加值臺灣的中小型企業，那我想請問的是，這個部分跟國科會的百工百業數位轉型……我覺得這個方向是對的，那你們怎麼進行？請教部長，因為這是你說的研發補助轉型。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，200億的重點，我們其實是放在我們的法人機構，法人機構在做一些發展跟製造的部分，在develop，包括工研院，包括我們的金屬中心，然後我們過去只是教，讓業者學，但是我們也要讓他習跟作，就是讓他學習，然後會操作新的這個技術，這個是我們的重點，所以我們要建立很多習作的場域，跟買很多可以AI使用的設備。其實我們有一個轉型的資料，如果委員需要的話，我們可以送給你參考一下。"],["劉委員書彬：希望經濟部在會後提供給我，好，謝謝。","同樣的問國發會，你們的報告也有說要提升AI競爭力和提升傳產的經費，那國發會也是屬於整合嗎？還是扮演什麼角色？還有，這跟4月3日之前的AI競爭力計畫有什麼不同？因為被人家說是舊瓶裝新酒而已。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們本來就有編列公務預算在執行這個部分，國發會還是整合的單位，還是由部會實際執行，但是因為針對對等關稅的影響，我們會擴大這個部分的支出跟方案。"],["劉委員書彬：那經費還是還沒有？必須再盤點？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們現在在爭取更多的預算來做這件事。"],["劉委員書彬：所以在特別預算的部分要加入這個，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們希望是這樣子。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那就謝謝兩位部會首長，非常辛苦，來對全民做這樣子的分析解說，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請李坤城委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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那根據統計113年發生的共諜案其實共起訴的64個人中有現役軍人就有28個那不就表示有差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人但問題是長期來我們面對中共對台的諜報的手段我們是不是反而都把這個焦點和重點全部放在軍隊上面了"},{"start":103.154,"end":124.152,"text":"但實際上從統計的資料我們來看應該有一個大部分的共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士那當然別的單位我們都不說了光是我們這次外交國防委員會就出了一個共諜連總統府裡面也有就是這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污自罪條例來起訴是嗎"},{"start":126.797,"end":148.357,"text":"對 就每個供電案可能要看的是他的案情還有他違反法律的要件是什麼那才有涉及到到底是適用哪一些的法律那這部分應該檢察機關他們會做一些評估那再採用相關適用的法律要件來進行相關的起訴的動作所以每個案情都不太一樣"},{"start":148.897,"end":164.011,"text":"好 那我們看一下螢幕北席就整理出來了最近這幾年有關的共諜案被告的判刑的情況大部分我看這個判大部分都是一年半到八年之間當然也有到十三年的那我想問請教一下局長你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效的嚇阻的作用嗎"},{"start":169.296,"end":191.67,"text":"對 剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有在提到說到底現在的定罪率是怎麼樣那我再跟他報告的是在過去這五年裡面那大概有88個人裡面有75個人是被判刑的那而且在過去這五年平均的刑責大概是四年七個月平均起來是如此"},{"start":192.19,"end":209.329,"text":"那這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法制有點關係因為在2019年之前大概判刑的刑責平均只有一年但是2019年國安法制修法之後有我剛剛提到的4.7年左右"},{"start":210.87,"end":229.819,"text":"這部分就是還是有一些法律規定的部分以共諜案這麼的頻繁以及中共這麼鋪天蓋地的對我們進行滲透就國安的立場來講我們當然會希望相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化那刑責怎麼樣來提升以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果"},{"start":230.239,"end":256.362,"text":"避免中共對我們的一個共諜的部署我們看一下像美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目的敵諜的案件的判刑的案例我們看到這個刑期這一欄其實我們都可以發現其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍其實都比我國還要更重然後甚至有一個叫麥大志的他是美國主要的金火商的工程師因為像中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年"},{"start":257.903,"end":275.148,"text":"所以我想本席這邊列舉的案例其中有一部分還是美國中央情報局還有聯邦調查局的文職人員他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊那我們國安局內部是不是也有那個非軍職的文職人員呢那這樣的比例大概是多少呢"},{"start":277.068,"end":303.055,"text":"對 這部分因為國安局是依照我們的國安局組織法的規定我們是軍文共用的一個 並用的一個單位那現在軍文配筆的話一般都是在六四筆到七三筆之間在移動因為也許我也知道軍職人員他離退的速度會比較快所以他一直是在變動的大概是六四筆跟七三筆之間"},{"start":304.736,"end":321.454,"text":"那如果文職人員涉及泄密及共諜的問題的時候國安局其實還是需要有一些法律工具去降低泄密的風險嘛那目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及做法可以預防文職人員的泄密還有涉及共諜不法的情勢發生呢"},{"start":322.515,"end":336.854,"text":"對,我想我們不只是文職啦,軍職人員也一樣那我們對於國安局的人員我們有國家情報人員的相關安全查核的辦法那能夠做一個比較詳實的安全的查核那另外"},{"start":337.975,"end":353.962,"text":"本局的人員的相關的揭密的程度也都有非常明確的一個分類那文件的管理也都有相關核密的等級來避免到不必要的機密讓太多人來知道我的意思是做一些資訊的分流"},{"start":355.563,"end":383.475,"text":"那第二部分是我們的人員假如出國的話都有非常嚴格的一個申請的機制那即使出國回來也都有我們的移測的一個過程那來避免到人員可能到海外的時候遭到接觸或滲透那北協還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線是應該的謝謝委員提醒我們"},{"start":386.196,"end":391.557,"text":"謝謝林議員上台的發言主席不好意思還有再給我一點時間好在這下一個議題川普這次宣布了關稅的問題讓全球的經濟重傷那對中國而言實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%這樣的話是等於加速了美中經濟的脫鉤那我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的那請問局長"},{"start":413.402,"end":428.232,"text":"那你知道1930年代的時候美國的斯穆特霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響那時候是因為陷入了經濟的困境助長了極端主義才讓納稅和軍國主義可以有機可乘那你們的書面報告也有說中國在新冠肺炎之後國內的經濟復甦情況不好"},{"start":437.738,"end":454.397,"text":"所以照這樣的話那是不是會影響中共執政的正當性那局長根據你了解一般像中國這種極權國家遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候這時候的內部民意的壓力通常他們會想說會做出什麼樣的事情呢"},{"start":455.198,"end":476.403,"text":"對,一般有兩種的推論,就是在一般的討論常常有一些爭辯、辯論一種是在你內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候可能會對外製造一些危機或衝突來轉移內部的焦點利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造這種愛國心,那維持政權的穩定那另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重了"},{"start":478.243,"end":504.519,"text":"不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重了、夠惡化了那你假如在這個時候在對外有一些比較冒進的動作的話很有可能更加深了民眾對於你的支持度的流失所以兩派的意見長期以來都有那至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的一些對外新興或者是挑興的新興新興的這種可能性的話那最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或我們國安單位"},{"start":505.319,"end":518.464,"text":"能夠有聯合情監真的能量來關注到中共相關的軍事動態我想這一塊應該是最直接我們能夠自己來掌握的好 那中國如果真的武力犯台的時候那美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢"},{"start":520.985,"end":548.985,"text":"是不是沒有承諾過會協防台灣呢因為我記得他是不是說過說他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁呢如果像這樣的話那未來因為川普提高關稅的問題造成美中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了那採取經濟制裁的手段其實對中國還會有用嗎還有美國經濟制裁的方式嚇阻中國武力犯台的效果會降低那這是不是都可以預期到的呢"},{"start":550.018,"end":572.42,"text":"就經濟的部分來講我想川普政府上來之後不管是在美日的峰會還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問以及美國在很多雙多邊的部長級的會議當中都有特別提到對於台海和平穩定的重視也反對任何武力或片面使用武力"},{"start":573.001,"end":599.022,"text":"威脅的手段來改變台海現狀所以我想美國在維持區域印太地區的和平穩定的這個立場上長期來應該是有一貫性的委員提到的第二問題是有沒有可能在中共對外新興的過程當中不管是對台灣或對周邊國家國際社會怎麼樣來透過經濟制裁給他一些壓力讓他來升高他可能發動戰事的一個成本那這個部分一般來講必須要國際社會有高度的共識"},{"start":599.702,"end":624.691,"text":"才有辦法來執行這樣的一個經濟的施壓而且經濟的施壓也必須要能夠準確到位才有辦法對這一個可能發動戰爭的行為者來帶來壓力那我也只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間那俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家不小經濟制裁所帶來的一個壓力有些也許短期看不到但長期來講對於俄國的一個經濟發展它帶來的傷害是非常重大的"},{"start":625.134,"end":638.58,"text":"好因為我這次看了這次的業務的報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅其實造成全球的驚恐的時候對台灣其實一個也是一個非常重大的國安的風險但是我覺得說這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個呢而且雖然經濟政策當然我知道這不是國安局的專業但是經濟絕對會對台灣產生政治和軍事上面密切的風險所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人還要跟國人說清楚"},{"start":654.426,"end":667.364,"text":"所以我想說以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點好 我們來加強但這次業務報告我們事實上在情勢分析的第一點我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時56分）謝謝主席，有請國安局蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：首先請教局長，最近吵得沸沸揚揚共諜案的問題，國安局在這次的業務報告書面資料第8頁裡面有提到，近2年起訴的共諜案案件數量大幅提升，請教局長案件數量大幅提升主要的原因是因為國安局偵防手段的精進？還是國人保防的意識及你們對中共諜報工作的密度有提升？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該都有，一方面是中共滲透的力度不斷的在強化，鋪天蓋地的對臺灣進行滲透跟共諜的部署；第二部分，我們國安情報機關歷年來也累積了一些經驗，在國安情報機關、軍中保防單位、檢察單位跟調查單位之間的合作也越來越密切；第三部分，也有跟其他委員報告，涉及到國人或軍中官兵弟兄的保防意識越來越強化，也透過檢舉的方式，讓我們有更多的訊源來針對這些共諜案啟動查察的動作。"],["林委員憶君：根據統計113年發生的共諜案，共起訴的64個人中，現役軍人就有28個，不就表示差不多三分之二的共諜是非現役軍人？問題是長期以來，我們面對中共對臺諜報的手段，是不是反而都把焦點全部放在軍隊上面？實際上，從統計資料來看，應該有大部分共諜反而是退役軍人或者是民間人士，別的單位我們就不說了，光是我們這次外交及國防委員會就出了1個共諜，連總統府裡面也有，這些共諜大部分都是依據國安法還有貪污治罪條例來起訴，是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，每個共諜案要看的是他的案情，還有他違反法律的要件是什麼，還有涉及到是適用哪一些的法律，這一部分檢察機關會做評估，採用適用的法律要件來進行起訴，所以每個案情都不太一樣。"],["林委員憶君：好，我們看一下螢幕，本席整理出最近這幾年共諜案被告判刑的情況，大部分判都是1年半到8年之間，當然也有到13年的，我想請教一下局長，你認為這樣的刑期真的能夠產生有效嚇阻的作用嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛應該是馬文君委員也有提到，現在的定罪率是怎樣？我跟他報告，在過去這5年裡面，大概88人裡面有75個人是被判刑的，而且在過去這5年平均刑責大概是4年7個月，這個跟2019年大院通過的國安法有點關係，因為在2019年之前，判刑的刑責大概都平均只有1年，但是2019年國安法修法之後，判刑大概是我提到的4.7年左右，所以這部分還是有法律規定，以共諜案這麼頻繁，以及中共鋪天蓋地對我們進行滲透，就國安的立場來講，我們當然會希望看相關的法規有沒有什麼漏洞可以來強化，刑責怎麼來提升，以便來達到更好的嚇阻效果，避免中共對我們共諜的部署。"],["林委員憶君：我們看一下美國這幾年有一些比較受人矚目敵諜案件的判刑案例，其中美國對共諜的判刑普遍都比我國還更重，有一個叫麥大志，他是美國主要軍火商的工程師，因為向中共遞交美國核潛艦相關的靜音技術資料被判了24年，本席列舉的案例，其中有一部分是美國中央情報局，還有聯邦調查局的文職人員，他們向中共傳遞機密的資訊，國安局內部是不是也有非軍職的文職人員，比例大概是多少？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局是依照國安局組織法的規定，我們是軍文並用的單位，現在軍文配比的話，一般都是在六四比到七三比之間在移動，也許委員知道軍職人員離退的速度會比較快，所以一直是在變動的，大概是六四比跟七三比之間。"],["林委員憶君：好，如果文職人員涉及洩密及共諜問題的時候，國安局還是需要有法律工具去降低洩密的風險，目前國安局有沒有什麼更積極的法律工具及作法可以預防文職人員的洩密，還有涉及共諜不法的情事發生？"],["蔡局長明彥：不只是文職人員，軍職人員也一樣，我們對於國安局的人員有國家情報人員的安全查核的辦法，能夠做比較詳實的、安全的查核；另外，本局人員接密的程度，也都有非常明確的分類，文件的管理也都有核密的等級避免不必要的機密讓太多人知道，我的意思是做一些資訊的分流。","第二部分，我們的人員只要出國的話，都有非常嚴格的申請機制，即使出國回來，也都有移徹的過程，避免人員可能到海外的時候，遭到接觸或滲透。"],["林委員憶君：本席還是希望國安局對共諜問題務必要比任何的機關單位來得更謹慎……"],["蔡局長明彥：會。"],["林委員憶君：畢竟你們是守護國家保密防諜網絡的第一道防線。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，應該的，謝謝委員提醒我們。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員上臺發言，那……"],["林委員憶君：主席不好意思，還有議題要詢問，再給我一點時間。"],["主席：好。"],["林委員憶君：下一個議題，川普這次宣布關稅的問題，讓全球的經濟重傷，對中國而言，實際上關稅疊加起來會高於54%，等於加速了美、中經濟的脫鉤，我們知道國際之間的政治和經濟是連動的，請問局長，你知道1930年代的時候，美國的斯姆特─霍利稅法對德國還有日本造成的影響，那時候因為陷入了經濟的困境，助長極端主義，才讓納粹和軍國主義有機可趁，你們的書面報告也有說，中國在新冠肺炎之後，國內的經濟復甦情況不好，照這樣的話，是不是會影響中共執政的正當性？局長，根據你了解，像中國這種集權國家，遇到經濟狀況不佳的時候，這時候內部民意的壓力，通常他們會做出什麼的事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般會有2種的推論，這2種狀況常常有爭辯。一種是在內部的經濟或社會比較不穩定的時候，可能會對外製造危機或衝突，轉移內部的焦點，利用這種民族主義的情緒來塑造愛國心，維持政權的穩定；另外一種是因為內部已經夠嚴重，不管是政治、經濟、社會的條件已經夠嚴重、夠惡化了，假如在這個時候，對外有比較冒進的動作，很有可能更加深的民眾對於你的支持度流失，所以長期以來都有兩派的意見，至於經濟會不會去影響到中共後續的對外興釁的可能性的話，最主要的還是我們自己包括國軍或國安單位能夠有聯合情監偵的能量，來關注到中共的軍事動態，我想這一塊應該是最直接，我們能夠自己掌握的。"],["林委員憶君：中國如果真的武力犯臺的時候，美國總統川普有沒有承諾過會協防臺灣？是不是沒有承諾過？因為我記得他是不是說過他們會對中國採取無法忍受的經濟制裁？如果像這樣的話，因為川普提高關稅的問題，造成美、中兩國的經貿連結開始降低了，採取經濟制裁的手段，對中國還會有用嗎？美國經濟制裁的方式，嚇阻中國武力犯臺的效果會降低，這是不是都可以預期？"],["蔡局長明彥：就經濟的部分來講，我想川普政府上來之後，不管是在美、日的峰會，還是美國防長這一次到亞洲來訪問，以及美國在很多雙、多邊的部長級的會議當中，都有特別提到對於臺海和平穩定的重視，也反對任何武力或片面使用武力威脅的手段來改變臺海現狀，所以我想，美國在維持印太地區的和平、穩定的立場上，長期以來應該是有一貫性的。","委員提到的第二個問題，有沒有可能在中共對外興釁的過程當中，不管是對臺灣或對周邊國家，國際社會怎麼樣透過經濟制裁，給他一些壓力，讓他升高可能發動戰事的成本，這個部分一般來講，必須要國際社會有高度的共識，才有辦法執行經濟的施壓，而且經濟施壓也必須準確到位，才有辦法對可能發動戰爭的行為者帶來壓力。委員只要注意一下在俄烏戰爭期間，俄國就確實承受到來自西方國家經濟制裁所帶來的壓力，也許短期看不到，但長期來講，對於俄國的經濟發展，帶來的傷害是非常重大。"],["林委員憶君：因為我看這次的業務報告裡面有一個就是川普這次宣布關稅造成全球驚恐，對臺灣其實也是非常重大的國安風險，但是這次的業務報告裡面為什麼沒有特別提到這個？雖然經濟政策我知道這不是國安局的專業，但是經濟絕對會對臺灣產生政治和軍事上密切的風險，所以國安局還是有責任要提醒國人，要跟國人說清楚，所以我想以後在這種業務報告上面內容務必還要再更周全一點。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來加強，但這次業務報告，我們在情勢分析的第一點，我們談的就是川普的關稅政策對全球帶來的衝擊，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君上臺質詢。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內答復，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。以上如有涉及機密部分，請確實依相關保密規定辦理。","本日會議到此結束，散會。","散會（12時8分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdceee93e882524cb52aa0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6bec85d994a9850a63d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:53:14 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Take如果他沒有進來我們台灣的"},{"start":247.984,"end":269.41,"text":"我們台灣也沒有輸出日本的先談 大家都是零嘛這個談判的一部分啦我給委員報告 這個我們都總體的盤過了所以我們談判小組 他們會收集各部門各個各界的這個建議他們會綜合考量以後呢然後就像剛才委員所指導的"},{"start":270.33,"end":291.057,"text":"然後他們會去跟美國做一些更細膩的談判好那部長你剛剛提到就說已經都整體的盤過我想我們國人也期待因為畢竟從上禮拜宣布到現在今天中午12點要生效我們也期待說政府部門已經有掌握我們目前的狀況那幾個部分我再跟您就教第一"},{"start":291.797,"end":317.228,"text":"藥品目前是還沒有宣布藥品跟半導體都還沒有宣布藥品跟半導體什麼時候會宣布他們要計算這個美國是如何去計算他會參考這樣的一個過程但目前我們還是沒有辦法得知我們其實這個就是因為這一次的這個變數太大就是我想我們雖然有盤但是現在不敢再先講因為這是談判的一部分"},{"start":317.608,"end":333.993,"text":"好那第二個部分預計何時我們真的能夠上談判桌我們有沒有掌握確知我們現在是第一群的人但現在媒體報導不管是媒體報導或說我們當然希望我們能夠儘速上談判桌嘛"},{"start":334.83,"end":350.06,"text":"我想在商業考量在國家考量尤其是我們在這一次這個對於我們國家來講這其實很重的一個方向32%我想都是跟委員所擔心的是一樣但是我們不能夠跟大家講"},{"start":351.798,"end":369.559,"text":"確確的數字因為這個會移情其他的在那個LINE上面的人不高興嘛然後會講說為什麼他台灣會到前面沒關係 確實我們有在等待有機會談判我們希望啦希望這是在前面談判好 那第三"},{"start":370.621,"end":390.078,"text":"關鍵的部分也是今天我們這個專案報告的一個方向就是說中小企業中南部有一些在零組件的相關也都我們現在已經有紓困的部分跟這個轉型的部分我們都有掌握您剛才已經有講到是說有盤點了有掌握現在會有多少家的一個企業"},{"start":390.979,"end":418.916,"text":"已經有宣布因為其實最近我也不希望人心惶惶其實部長這一點我要提出來的就是因為現在有人已經有看到新聞有哪一家已經有放無薪假等等的那到底實際狀況為何報告委員我們現在就是透過兩個管道在收集這個資訊一個就是我們自己經濟部的同仁一家一家去拜訪這是一個管道另外一個因為怕這個太慢所以我們有開放那個call center讓他們打電話進來"},{"start":420.217,"end":446.543,"text":"然後有區域工業區的部分呢工業區工業區的部分因為其實經濟部下面工業區我們有66個工業區所以我們都有服務中心是那我們就開放這個服務中心幹部長我們現在66個工業區裡面的廠商狀況廠商的狀況還有這個外部的我們都在調查而且我想一步一步調查我們會了解因為每一家的這個情況不會一樣"},{"start":447.663,"end":463.873,"text":"所以你一個措施下去不一定每天都有效啦我是希望能夠對症下藥他需要我們協助什麼到底是金融的紓困還是我們幫他訂單的轉移或者是他將來技術的提升我想這個是不同的層次部長當然"},{"start":464.653,"end":491.502,"text":"您剛提到對症下藥這就是本席想要請教以及今天為什麼我們早晚會排這樣的一個專報其實我們都希望對症下藥但到目前為止我們想要了解說至少你從大方向經濟部下面的工業區66個工業區裡面廠商的部分一定是更加連結我可以理解跟同意中小企業它沒有辦法你完全同時間掌握但你先從大方向著手"},{"start":492.242,"end":512.972,"text":"工業區裡面先掌握到底現在裡面是不是真的有所謂的停止訂單是不是有所謂的這個調整是不是有所謂的無薪假這一點總是可以先做做完之後你才有辦法把你的政策再拿出來嘛否則我們上禮拜看到先講到一個所謂的特別700億經濟部農業部180億所以總共880億當然"},{"start":517.734,"end":531.999,"text":"合理的預算運用我們都不會反對我們也都希望能夠當台灣中小企業的後盾但重點在於是說把錢怎麼樣用在刀口上這是我們現在所關注的是 我們現在880億是就根據過去的經驗推論出來的一個數目字"},{"start":536.101,"end":555.414,"text":"但是我想我們院長有特別的交代也就是說希望我們盤點具體的這個出來以後那如果有需要增加預算那麼我們會再提第二次的特別預算好 所以部長我給一個比較具體的建議因為這個禮拜五也已經排定了行政院長做特別預算的專案報告在下午的時間"},{"start":556.355,"end":583.841,"text":"我們朝野黨團也都有代表要去做質詢所以這一個部分請經濟部的同仁真的一定要掌握因為我相信在禮拜五的時候一定還會有委員也詢問到不管是特別預算數額夠不夠災情的狀況怎麼樣以及現在充其產面到底有多廣多少中小企業現在面臨到什麼樣的困境我想這一些部分也都需要在專案報告的時候好好的說明所以委員催情的部分我們會馬上來準備謝謝"},{"start":586.125,"end":586.288,"text":"谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩請經濟部長跟國發會主委。"],["主席：郭部長、劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、主委好。美國關稅的因應全世界大家都一起面對，當然臺灣2,350萬人共同努力，因為這不分朝野、不分黨派。","我們也有代表團現在正在美國要準備談判，對不對？都有溝通，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：其中一個很大的關鍵，到目前為止，我們還沒聽到政府部門的說法，我也在這邊就教，美國總統川普用一個大帽子「對等關稅」，他先講是因為臺灣課美國64%關稅，所以要砍一半變32%。但我們這幾天也都陸陸續續看到，我們也認為說不可能有那麼高的關稅，這是第一點；第二點，也有媒體報導說這公式算錯了。我們現在自己盤點，臺灣對美國的產品關稅到底實際課多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們實際跟美國差的關稅不到3%。"],["洪委員孟楷：3%，不是相差，他說64%，美國總統川普先講……"],["郭部長智輝：那個64%是用出超跟對整體……"],["洪委員孟楷：他的計算方式是這樣，所以他用這個變成要求我們是32%的關稅，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在美國進到臺灣到底是多少關稅？各產品最高的關稅是多少？因為這就不符合對等……"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我們對美國課的關稅平均大概是6.5%。"],["洪委員孟楷：6.5%，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：美國對我們是3.2%、3.3%。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在變成是不管用什麼樣的理由，要從原本的三點多百分比一次提高10倍變32%。"],["郭部長智輝：也不是說10倍，他就是用入超來除整個的金額……他的公式是有點……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我理解，因為他先用這個大帽子扣下來，說實在話，這就變成是我們談判的底氣以及談判的策略，你要怎麼樣拆掉他的大帽子，他講了64%……"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯，並不是說拆掉，因為它是一體適用，對全球各個國家都是用這個方法讓大家上去跟他談判，但是他的談判目的大概不外乎幾個，第一個，可能是解決他們貿易失衡的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，就逆差的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：第二個，解決他們金融失衡的問題；第三個……"],["洪委員孟楷：他們的國債問題。"],["郭部長智輝：解決國家製造空洞化的問題，大概就是這三個問題。為什麼要用關稅？剛才委員也指教得很好，因為他們金融的問題、國債的問題，所以他們需要一點cash，因此從關稅來收是最快，或者從投資來收是最快。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們是不是已經嚴正的讓美方知道這不是一個對等的關稅？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會……"],["洪委員孟楷：連賴清德總統也提出來說要雙方研議，甚至往零關稅的方向。"],["郭部長智輝：不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但實際上我們收美國只有6%。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想總統的意思是說，從零關稅開始談起。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK，這是我們的底牌。"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是談判的籌碼，give and take，如果他沒有進來我們臺灣的，我們臺灣也沒有輸出去。日本先談，那大家都是零嘛！這就是談判的一部分。我跟委員報告，我們都總體的盤過了，所以談判小組會蒐集各部門、各界的建議，他們會綜合考量以後，就像剛才委員所指導的，他們會去跟美國做更細膩的談判。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛剛提到已經都整體盤過，畢竟從上禮拜宣布到今天中午12點要生效，我們也期待政府部門已經有掌握目前的狀況。","幾個部分我再跟您就教，第一，藥品目前還沒有宣布，有沒有掌握……"],["郭部長智輝：藥品跟半導體都還沒有宣布。"],["洪委員孟楷：藥品跟半導體什麼時候會宣布？"],["郭部長智輝：他們要計算，美國如何去計算、會不會參考這樣的過程……"],["洪委員孟楷：目前我們還是沒有辦法得知？"],["郭部長智輝：因為這一次的變數太大，我們雖然有盤，但是現在不敢先講，因為這是談判的一部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。第二部分，預計我們何時能夠上談判桌？有沒有掌握？"],["郭部長智輝：確知我們現在是第一群的人。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在媒體報導……我們當然希望能夠儘速上談判桌。在商業考量、國家考量下，這個對於我們國家來講，32%其實是很重的一個方向。"],["郭部長智輝：都跟委員所擔心的一樣，但是我們不能夠跟大家講確切的數字，因為會引起其他的……"],["洪委員孟楷：都在等待。"],["郭部長智輝：其他在line上面的人不高興，會說為什麼臺灣會到前面……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，確實我們有在等待，有機會談判。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望在前面談判。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。第三，關鍵的部分，也是今天專案報告的方向，中南部的中小企業有一些零組件相關的，現在也都……"],["郭部長智輝：紓困跟轉型的部分，我們都有掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：您剛講到有盤點了，有掌握現在會有多少企業？我也不希望人心惶惶。我要提出來的就是，因為現在有人已經看到新聞說有哪一家已經放無薪假，到底實際狀況為何？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在就是透過兩個管道在蒐集資訊，一個就是我們自己經濟部的同仁一家一家去拜訪，這是一個管道。另外一個管道，因為我怕第一個管道太慢，所以我們有開放call center，讓他們打電話進來。"],["洪委員孟楷：工業區的部分呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有66個工業區，所以我們都有服務中心，我們就開放這個服務中心，讓區內的廠商……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，在66個工業區裡面的廠商狀況是如何？"],["郭部長智輝：廠商的狀況還有外部的狀況，我們都在調查，而且我想一步一步調查，我們會了解，因為每一家的情況不會一樣，所以一個措施下去，不一定對每一家都有效，我是希望能夠對症下藥，他需要我們協助什麼，到底是金融的紓困，還是我們幫他做訂單的轉移，或者是他將來技術的提升，我想這個是不同的層次。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，當然，您剛剛提到對症下藥，這就是本席想要請教，以及今天為什麼我們召委會排這樣的一個專報的原因，其實我們都希望對症下藥。到目前為止，我們想要了解的是，至少你從大方向去做，經濟部下面的66個工業區裡面，廠商的部分一定是更加連結，我可以理解跟同意，中小企業你沒有辦法完全同時間掌握，但你先從大方向著手，工業區裡面先掌握到底現在裡面是不是真的有停止訂單、是不是有調整、是不是有無薪假，這一點總是可以先做。"],["郭部長智輝：部分的廠商確實……"],["洪委員孟楷：做完之後，你才有辦法把你的政策再拿出來嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：否則我們上禮拜看到一個經濟部的700億特別預算，再加上農業部的180億，所以總共880億，當然合理的預算運用我們都不會反對，我們也都希望能夠當臺灣中小企業的後盾，但重點在於怎麼樣把錢用在刀口上，這是我們現在所關注的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在880億是根據過去的經驗所推論出來的一個數目字，但是，院長有特別交代，希望我們盤點具體的數字出來以後，如果有需要增加預算，那麼我們會再提第二次的特別預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以部長，我給一個比較具體的建議，這個禮拜五也已經排定行政院長做特別預算的專案報告，是在下午的時間，我們朝野黨團也都有代表要去質詢，所以這一個部分請經濟部的同仁真的一定要掌握，我相信在禮拜五的時候，一定還會有委員也詢問到，不管是特別預算的數額夠不夠、災情的狀況怎麼樣，以及現在衝擊的產業面到底有多廣、多少中小企業現在面臨到什麼樣的困境，我想這一些部分也都需要在專案報告的時候好好地說明，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，委員垂詢的部份，我們會馬上來準備。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請劉書彬委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T11:58:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T12:03:08+08:00","duration":304,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.16534375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.232218750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.607218750000001,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.345343750000001,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.10409375,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.137843750000002,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.239093750000002,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.559718750000002,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.32846875,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.92659375000001,"end":103.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.91346875,"end":111.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.92909375,"end":113.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.24096875000001,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.59784375,"end":206.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.02784375000002,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.17534375000002,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.95846875,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.86409375,"end":280.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.61159375,"end":296.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.39159375,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.16596875000005,"end":298.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.59159375,"end":302.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.40534375000004,"end":304.72596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.693,"end":9.774,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請鄭局長好 請鄭署長"},{"start":18.157,"end":37.583,"text":"委員好署長好我想剛剛因為前面已經有蠻多委員都問到了有關運彩條例的相關的部分但是因為我們知道因為從這個2024年的世界棒球賽我們拿到冠軍再加上周思齊他退役的時候大家也都在考慮到就是當年那個職棒簽賭真的對台灣"},{"start":39.623,"end":63.748,"text":"造成了極大的傷害那麼要不是我們這一次又拿回到這個世界冠軍了我相信很多離開的這些棒球迷都不會再回來但是我覺得今天我們好好的來談一下是運彩條例第13條之三確實是有講到運動競技的相關的所謂內部人員都不可以來從事相關運動彩券的買賣但是我也知道說以目前為止的話"},{"start":65.289,"end":85.007,"text":"我們中華職棒其實CPBL已經有納入一些內規那麼我們也知道是當一些特殊的這個比賽它在所謂運動熱期的時候我們的台彩也會開出相關的這個所謂投注的項目那麼包括像2024年巴黎奧運的時候"},{"start":87.289,"end":100.537,"text":"籃球啦 羽球啦 桌球啦平常可能不會特別被開的就會開出來所以我要就教的是各個協會或者是特定的體育團體體育署這邊有盤點了他們有沒有針對運採來做一些內規呢報委員其實大部分的賽事投注還是在職業的聯盟為主啦是所以這部分"},{"start":114.861,"end":142.291,"text":"協會的部分目前的確是比較沒有在這方面的規定因為他們被列入投注標的機會的確是比較少機會少但是當他是成為熱門比賽的重要項目或者是跟台灣涉入比較深的時候因為我自己個人認為啦從與其他綠不如先自綠所以我在這邊是善意的提醒我們體育署在這裡其實可以請他們做一些內規上面的防範"},{"start":143.231,"end":159.444,"text":"而不是說他們都完全不能投注因為畢竟我們都知道這裡面有運發基金在裡頭他們如果要去玩都是做公益但是是不是能夠去盤點在相關熱門賽事它有可能成為比如說2024年的巴黎奧運"},{"start":161.325,"end":175.282,"text":"他也成為其中的這些項目的時候在內規能夠做一些相關的避嫌或規範我覺得防範與未然是有其必要性另外當然就是我們知道的"},{"start":176.323,"end":187.112,"text":"如果你成為內部人的時候我們在運採的相關的法規上面都有規定但是他有沒有可能委託朋友或者是利用他人的帳號來投注其實這些都是有可能的所以我認為如果我們能夠把這個所謂防堵堵起來那麼在內規上面做一些"},{"start":196.78,"end":225.447,"text":"定義我相信會對於外界的疑慮會稍微少一點局長可不可以署長可不可以去就是來做一個相關的了解跟查查然後事後再給我們相關的報告好不好謝謝委員的提醒最後我想其實大家都會非常關注就是到底為什麼地下賭盤會比這個所謂的我們現在真正的台財來的除了賠率除了獲獎的機率之外另外當然也是有可能就是"},{"start":226.568,"end":246.388,"text":"是不是你總是要走到投注站去那麼在數位化的部分我們現在也跟威剛合作了嘛那麼在數位化或者是網頁的部分有沒有可能更加強還是說就像我前面所講的在防堵網的部分因為擔心太方便投注以至於這個太熱"},{"start":248.07,"end":272.417,"text":"那在這個部分您怎麼來看就是說因為我如果一定要走到投注站我在所謂的投注數位化的簡便上面我如果用手機就可以操作它如果有一個專屬的APP而不要是網頁版而且常常卡卡那麼這個部分是不是能夠找到這個平衡點那尤其是我們現在找了一個科技公司來跟"},{"start":273.297,"end":298.455,"text":"所謂運材來做合作的時候那這過程當中是不是可以在數位化投注上面多做加強報告委員其實我們是蠻鼓勵在線上投注這一塊因為這一塊我們可以拿到12%的那個分潤到我們的運動發展基金不過的確啦威剛它本身是科技公司我們會再跟他們再做了解看看能不能再更優化他們的界面好 OK 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林楚英委員"},{"start":304.445,"end":304.684,"text":"說實話"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時58分）謝謝主席，有請鄭署長。"],["主席：請鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：署長好。我想前面已經有滿多委員都問到有關運彩條例的部分，我們知道，從2024年的世界棒球賽我們拿到冠軍，再加上周思齊退役的時候，大家也都討論到當年的職棒簽賭真的對臺灣造成極大的傷害，要不是我們這一次又拿回世界冠軍，我相信這些離開的棒球迷都不會再回來了。","今天我們好好地來談一下運彩條例第十三條之三，確實是有講到運動競技所謂的內部人員都不可以來從事運動彩券的買賣，我知道到目前為止，中華職棒（CPBL）已經有納入一些內規，那麼我們也知道當一些特殊的比賽，它在所謂運動熱期的時候，台彩也會開出相關的投注項目，包括像2024年巴黎奧運的時候，籃球啦，羽球啦，桌球啦，平常可能不會特別被開的就會開出來，所以我要就教的是，各個協會或者是特定的體育團體，體育署這邊有盤點了，他們有沒有針對運彩來做一些內規呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實大部分的賽事投注還是以職業聯盟為主啊！"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["鄭署長世忠：所以針對這部分，協會的部分目前的確比較沒有這方面的規定，因為他們被列入投注標的機會確實是比較少。"],["林委員楚茵：機會雖少，但是當它成為熱門比賽的重要項目或跟臺灣社會關係比較深的時候……我自己個人認為啦！與其他律，不如先自律，所以我在這邊是善意地提醒體育署，在這裡其實可以請他們做一些內規上的防範，而不是他們完全不能投注，畢竟我們都知道這裡面涉及運發基金，他們如果要去玩都是做公益。但是不是能夠盤點在相關熱門賽事中有可能成為項目者？比如說在2024年的巴黎奧運也成為其中項目的時候，在內規上能夠做一些相關的避嫌或規範，我覺得防範於未然有其必要性。","另外，當然就是我們知道的，如果成為內部人的時候，在運彩相關法規上都有規定，但是他有沒有可能委託朋友或利用他人的帳號來投注？其實這些都是有可能的。所以如果能夠以所謂的「防賭」堵起來、在內規上做一些定義，我相信對於外界來說疑慮會稍微小一點。署長回去以後可不可以做相關了解跟查察，事後再給我們相關報告，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員楚茵：好。","最後，我想其實大家都會非常關注，就是到底為什麼地下賭盤會比真正的台彩來得……除了賠率、除了獲獎的機率之外，當然，是不是也有可能因為總是要走到投注站去？在數位化的部分，我們現在也跟威剛合作了嘛！那麼在數位化或網頁的部分，有沒有可能更加強？還是就像我前面所講的涉及防賭網的部分，因為擔心太方便投注以至於太熱？在這個部分，您怎麼來看？也就是說，比起我一定要走到投注站，如果在投注數位化的簡便上，用手機就可以操作、有一個專屬app，不要是網頁版、而且常常卡卡，那麼這部分是不是能夠找到平衡點？尤其是你們現在又找了一個科技公司與運彩合作，在這個過程當中，是不是可以在數位化投注上多作加強？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們是滿鼓勵線上投注這一塊，因為這一塊我們可以拿到12%的分潤到運動發展基金。不過，的確啦！威剛本身是科技公司，我們會再跟他們了解，看看能不能更優化他們的介面。"],["林委員楚茵：好，OK，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，署長請回。","接下來請鄭天財委員，鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","請林德福委員，林德福、林德福委員不在。","現在先來處理臨時提案。今天委員提出的臨時提案有2案，請宣讀。","一、","案由：鑒於近期發生台東縣關山國小學前特幼班正式教師虐童案件，其中疑點重重，此事件顯見國教署對於地方教育局處的監管不力，爰請國教署針對下列事項，於兩周內向本委員會提出檢討報告：","1.依據「教保相關人員違法事件調查處理辦法」教育局處應於兩天內決議是否受理，台東縣教育處早在114年1月9日即接獲通報，卻遲至1月20日才決議受理，明顯違反規定。國教署對地方教育局處應建立監管機制，以處理地方教育局處違反規定處理、涉嫌包庇吃案等狀況。","2.校方第一時間提供的監視器畫面是錯的，球員兼裁判，刻意隱匿施暴事實；家長直到2/27，才第一次被調查小組通知看監視器，方才得知受虐情狀；早在去年該名教師就有施暴紀錄，卻因沒有裝設監視器、沒有正趣，使得教師繼續留任，導致更多幼童受害。由上述可知，現行監視器調閱辦法應全盤檢討，例如建立違規處分、幼教與特教應強制裝設監視器，確保易受侵害學童群體之權益，並保障家長合理調閱監視器。","3.若地方政府處理不力，應建立利害關係人直接向國教署的檢舉機制，避免官官相護、層層隱匿。","提案人：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　李坤城　　范　雲　　林宜瑾　　陳秀寳　　","二、","案由：美國總統川普4/3宣布對台32%關稅前夕，3/31美國貿易代表署（USTR）在《2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告》中，點名台灣限制美豬、美牛，馬鈴薯、基改食品等政策是「不必要的貿易障礙」，甚至直接要求我國取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食品的禁令！","我國《學校衛生法》第23條第3項明文規定「學校供應膳食其食材應優先採用中央農業主管機關認證之在地優良農業產品，並禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其初級加工品」。且教育部也在第一時間發文回應：依法禁用並落實執行。","學童健康是全民底線，並非單純貿易議題，而是台灣下一代健康的根本問題。爰要求教育部向行政院台美經貿談判小組表達，絕不會拿學童健康作為談判的籌碼，並堅持遵循《學校衛生法》第23條規定，不開放基改食品進校園，且將禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其初級加工品等文字，明定於研修中之教育部版《學校供餐法草案》中。","提案人：萬美玲　　柯志恩　　葛如鈞　　"],["主席：好，我們先來處理第一案。第一案提案委員伍麗華不在，可是因為本席是連署委員，所以我要看看教育部有什麼意見、有沒有修正文字？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員、謝謝主席，第一個臨時提案是不是能夠有部分文字修正？就是案由第二行裡「此事件顯見」到「監管不力」是不是可以刪除？然後第三行的「兩周」我們可以改為「一周」。至於其他，我想就尊重委員的意見。"],["主席：這中間好像有一些筆誤：第二點第四行應該是「沒有裝設監視器、沒有證據」，但他寫……這裡可能也要修正一下，應該是「證據」，他可能寫錯，寫成「正趣」。","針對部長、教育部這邊的修正文字，本席沒有意見，那麼對於第一案，有沒有其他委員有意見？（無）如果沒有意見的話，第一案就修正通過。","第二案，提案委員有什麼說明沒有？好，請萬美玲委員。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝召委。其實在今天早上質詢的時候，我有跟部長交換過意見啦！首先非常謝謝部長在3月31號當美國貿易代表署提出來的時候在第一時間回應，說我們目前都是依法禁用。對於我們臺灣現在被點名所謂限制美豬、美牛或者是馬鈴薯、基改食品這些，美國認為是不必要的貿易障礙，甚至直接要求我們取消現在學童營養午餐不得使用基改食品的禁令，教育部在第一時間回應說我們目前都是依法禁用，我想這點非常地好。但是本席當然也會比較擔心，因為關於基改食品的禁用，第一個，其實我們有明令在學校衛生法第二十三條當中。第二個，無論是學校營養午餐的業者也好、或者營養午餐的執秘、老師，從過去到現在已經這麼多年了，其實都嚴守著、守護著孩子的健康，所以在這個部分，既然鄭副院長即將去美國做一些溝通、談判，那我們是不是能在守住孩子健康這件事情上繼續達成共識、持續地嚴守學校衛生法第二十三條？第一點沒有問題，就是在學校供應餐食的時候，食材要能夠使用在地的優良農產品。第二個，也就是在禁止使用含基因改造的生鮮食材及其初級加工品這個部分，希望教育部能夠一本過往到現在守護孩子的初衷，也能跟赴美團講。我想，守住孩子的健康是我們大家共同的堅持，所以做這個臨時提案。我也希望未來新的學校營養午餐專法出來的時候，當中能夠明定禁止基改食品，以及遵守過去在學校衛生法第二十三條中的相關規範。那就看教育部這邊的意見。"],["主席：好，教育部有沒有補充說明？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員、謝謝主席。有關委員所提這個提案，我們也有部分文字修正。這個精神我們基本上是認同的，但就是第二段裡邊是不是能加個「惟」，改為「惟我國《學校衛生法》」？然後第二段倒數第二行「發文回應」中，「發文」兩個字是不是也可以同意刪除？"],["萬委員美玲：那個已經刪掉了啊！已經刪了。"],["鄭部長英耀：好。","第三段就是改為「守住學童」。如同剛才委員提的，守住學童健康是全民底線，是不是加上「守住」兩個字？","另外，第三段倒數第二行「將禁止使用……」，從這個「將」到最後一行的「明定於」這段是不是能同意刪除？然後「研修中之教育部版」後增加：《高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例（草案）》不得排除學校衛生法第二十三條第三項有關「禁止使用含基因改造生鮮食材及其初級加工品」之規定。以上，懇請委員支持。"],["主席：好，其他委員有沒有意見？","請張雅琳委員。"],["張委員雅琳：我對於教育部的版本沒有什麼意見，但是有個提醒啦！因為現在還是在談判的過程之中嘛！所以教育部可能還是要跟經貿辦事處保持密切的聯絡跟聯繫。基本上我們還是尊重現行法令的規範，但是我想也要尊重教育部的行政權，所以在這邊做個提醒。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","還有沒有其他委員要補充說明或表達意見？","請陳培瑜委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。我想要請問一下教育部，在這個提案裡面，我們看到學校衛生法第二十三條有明文規定，那麼這個明文規定目前在各縣市落實的狀況或者監督稽核的狀態是什麼？是不是目前行政措施上的執行真的可以讓我們的家長放心？可不可以請教育部說明一下？因為我在想，現在確實處於討論階段嘛！而且就算沒有專法，目前學校營養午餐除了有農業部相關的食材補助、有學校衛生法的把關，其實有非常多抽檢都在進行，在相關食安事件也確實愈來愈少的情況下，其實我也不是很確定像這樣的提案是不是不一定要提，因為我們本來就有學校衛生法第二十三條在照顧孩子們的食安這件事情，而且食安也不會只有基改問題啦！我想請教育部回應一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，教育部說明一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心。我們現在有平臺，所有營養午餐都會登錄在這個平臺。現在各縣市實際營養午餐的推動，就是直接落實在營養午餐採購契約裡邊，在這個提供食材的契約裡邊，我們要求廠商嚴格遵守三章一Q，然後是使用國有優質農產品。我想在這個部分，基本上以現況來講，我們的學童不會觸及到學校衛生法第二十三條第三項，被提供大家擔心的這些基改生鮮食材。以上。"],["主席：好。","培瑜委員，你要補充嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，我可不可以有一個不情之請？我們可不可以休息5分鐘，討論一下這個內容？因為我自己的小孩也都一直在學校吃營養午餐啦！所以我真的非常認同萬委員的擔心跟顧慮，我也知道很多家長都很擔心，因為我們確實對於基改食品不理解。那麼我們可不可以討論一下文字內容，在照顧孩子們的權益、照顧家長的食安擔憂，同時也讓衛福部真的有空間、可以好好做事的情況下，再確定這個文字內容？不知道萬委員可不可以接受我這個提議？"],["萬委員美玲：好啊！好啊！"],["主席：那就先休息。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝萬委員。"],["主席：好，先休息5分鐘。","休息（12時14分）","繼續開會（12時32分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","剛剛溝通的過程，對於原提案，萬美玲委員同意做一些文字修正，那麼是不是再請部長做最後文字修正的闡述？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。是不是案由能夠將「美國」……也就是前面第一句刪除，改為「有鑑於3/31」，加「有鑑於」3個字，再接「3/31」。「美國貿易代表署……不必……」這些保留，然後把「甚至直接」改為「並」，即「並要求我國取消……營養午餐……」。"],["主席：那後面就是跟剛剛的修正一樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我確認一下好不好？因為部長講的不是太順。案由我把它改成：也就是第一句我同意把它刪掉，但改成「有鑑於3/31美國貿易代表署（USTR）在《2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告》中，點名台灣限制美豬、美牛、馬鈴薯、基改食品等政策是不必要的貿易障礙」，「甚至直接……」改成「並要求我國取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食品的禁令」，然後驚嘆號改為句點。第一段改成這樣，好不好？其他部分是不是就照剛才所述？"],["主席：好，其他委員有沒有其他意見？如果這樣的話，就修正通過。","接下來繼續質詢。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在……喔！不好意思、不好意思，我一直看那邊，只看到徐富癸委員。","請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce6c66fad7ef77a142b899a01abdeb36332eb6e21b32d8c6be8d3a92de4e1420655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:51:50 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主席請交通部陳部長陳部長委員好部長早部長我們今天的會議是針對如何吸引國際觀光客來台旅遊觀光碼做的專案報告我們先看到這張圖本席的選區涵蓋八德大溪復興"},{"start":31.334,"end":50.527,"text":"那其中的大溪還有復興呢下來都是我們全國非常重要的觀光重鎮那擁有池湖還有石門水庫大溪老街腳板山還有東眼山等全國知名的景點嘛那年年都吸引許多遊客造訪那也要謝謝署長對我們桃園大大小小觀光活動的支持"},{"start":51.127,"end":68.12,"text":"那除了大溪和復興之外我們看到巴德那巴德也蘊藏很多豐富的觀光潛力有很多值得推廣的休憩景點那因此本席也針對巴德的觀光發展向部長請教具體的規劃那請教部長您有去過巴德嗎"},{"start":68.86,"end":96.276,"text":"巴德去過巴德去過那對巴德有什麼印象去吃飯去吃飯所以只有對餐廳有印象對餐廳有印象好沒關係那介紹幾個景點給部長那我們來看到本系列舉出幾個非常具有代表性的觀光景點那我們看到新仁花園夜市是北部最大的夜市它佔地6000坪也有400個以上的攤位是在地也是外地遊客必訪的熱點那我們看下一個景點"},{"start":97.136,"end":112.717,"text":"八德兒童玩具圖書館它館內有館藏了三萬冊的圖書那最大特色是結合玩具那也是結合閱讀還有互動體驗非常適合親子同友是推廣家庭旅遊的絕佳場所那下一個"},{"start":113.698,"end":131.406,"text":"巴德埤塘自然生態公園那也是巴德區非常重要的休閒還有生態景點那根據觀光署的統計他在2024年造訪的人次達144萬多人次那可以看到他非常的受歡迎也有具有發展的潛力那還有一個是"},{"start":133.095,"end":155.632,"text":"我們下一個巧克力共和國那它是國內知名品牌七夕魯迦巧克力所設立的觀光工廠那它結合產業文化還有體驗活動非常受到遊客喜愛那部長其實巴德還有其他非常多值得探索的觀光資源那因為時間的關係那本期就不一一列舉了那這邊要請教部長您認為發展觀光最重要的因素是什麼"},{"start":156.232,"end":179.285,"text":"我想要讓民眾知道那裡有什麼可以玩的像剛剛委員所說明的這個巴德有這些景點您現在說了在我腦海裡就有一個圖像譬如說七七魯加是我從小愛吃的但我不曉得巴德有這個巧克力共和國那我現在知道了有這個圖像之後我未來就會去所以我認為那個圖像的行銷很重要讓民眾知道那裡有什麼好玩"},{"start":179.778,"end":203.539,"text":"是那除了圖像的行銷之外那部長你還有想到什麼其他的關鍵因素嗎交通啊交通沒錯就是交通啊對那交通的大眾運輸的可及性它會影響就是地方觀光它決定了地方的觀光發展嘛那以巴德為例如果沒有順暢的交通系統那再好的景點也難以吸引就是我們不管是國內外的觀光遊客那前往嘛"},{"start":203.959,"end":225.446,"text":"那這邊要談到那部長請問您知道目前巴德重大的交通建設推動中的幾項重大交通建設嗎其實蠻多的耶巴德我們有交流到的這個設計的在設計中的這個交流到的改善工程的政策對說到巴德交流道那還有"},{"start":227.549,"end":239.851,"text":"是不是委員也有在爭取快速道路快速道路沒錯那還有捷運綠線那本席也多次提到巴德山陰延伸巴德那部長您知道目前此案的進度嗎"},{"start":240.626,"end":269.519,"text":"目前應該是在可行性 綜合規劃綜合規劃 目前卡關在行政院是沒有辦法推進可以說是遙遙無期 那部長我們交通部的審查已經結束了那也送到行政院那邊那委員在關心那行政院那邊的進度我也來去了解一下看有沒有可能加快是 那您認為就是遲遲卡關在行政院的原因是為什麼這個我就不曉得您不曉得 這個我不曉得 對是 那有沒有其他可以向部長"},{"start":271.504,"end":271.987,"text":"今天沒有來嗎"},{"start":273.837,"end":302.216,"text":"是 沒關係 這個部分我會再去跟行政院那邊詢問是 那部長這邊 本席也要讓部長知道就是三陰縣今年年底完工2025年 已經明年營運嘛那針對三陰縣延伸至巴德呢那交通部在去年9月20日的時候就已經報請行政院核定嘛那本席也多次的請部長向卓院長來反映希望行政院能盡快的回應我們地方鄉親的期待那很遺憾 現在已經超過201天了行政院遲遲都還沒有回覆"},{"start":306.598,"end":328.869,"text":"這邊本席有向行政院提出我的疑問那我們先來看到這個書面的資料那其中的第三點呢LB13還有LB12A進出的人口進出站的人口偏低這是行政院那邊給本席的答覆那存在運量不足的疑慮那因此有要求交通部來督導地方政府"},{"start":329.369,"end":340.782,"text":"重新評估這兩站的必要性那部長所以您有掌握到嗎好這個細節我當然沒有掌握到不過委員您今天在提醒我就針對這個細節我會去問我們這個部裡面的審查的單位像鐵道局他們針對這個議題我們的看法是什麼我會來詢問他們一下"},{"start":348.689,"end":368.758,"text":"是 那部長您今天也認識到我們巴德有非常多特色的景點嘛那對我們地方的觀光發展也非常重要那希望部長可以盡快再次的與我們行政院溝通與協調那盡快的回應我們鄉親的期盼嘛好 那部長可以先請回座休息請民航局何局長"},{"start":380.874,"end":406.385,"text":"局長好 局長目前兩岸關係緊張嘛那對岸自2022年起共同進行了六次環台軍演那近期兩次呢從發布到實施的時間它非常的短那以聯合力界2024B為例2024年10月24號它凌晨宣布那早上8點的時候就開始演習了那2025年今年4月1號它也是早上突然宣布然後它即刻就發動了"},{"start":407.705,"end":435.064,"text":"海空的聯合演訓那當日有36架的36架共機進入我方的應變區那請問局長那在這樣的情況下桃園國際機場他位於北台灣的空域樞紐那同時還有新竹的空軍基地以及臺北松山機場他們距離都非常的相近那當我方在緊急升空攔截共機的時候那民航局這邊像桃園機場他們有沒有及時掌握軍方的戰機緊急起飛的情況"},{"start":436.778,"end":462.8,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為我們整個台北飛航情報局就是包含北部這個整個空域都是我們的飛航服務總台在管轄那基本上跟戰機之間我們其實都會跟軍方的戰管聯繫基本上就是說有相關的訊息是會有一些聯繫那有關中共這邊的演習如果我們有事先在我們的飛航公告有看到我們就會做相關的因應措施相關的預防那剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":464.121,"end":482.287,"text":"幾次演習 如果我們事先提到我們就會規劃相關的航路那這樣的軍事活動會不會影響到民航機他起降的干擾或是延誤基本上因為我們民航機都有劃定的航路那所以說這幾次來講的話基本上都是航行上都算正常"},{"start":482.887,"end":507.933,"text":"那基本上我們其實在整個軍方如果有共機等等的這個訊息這個軍方也是會有掌握我們也會有掌握所以對我們的淘機來講其實基本上這幾次是沒有特別的OK 所以本席向局長確認所以目前對於預告他馬上就實施了這樣軍演模式民航局都有掌握他應變措施以及流程OK 好 謝謝局長的說明好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":874,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時52分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長早。今天的會議是針對如何吸引國際觀光客來臺旅遊觀光進行的專案報告，我們先看到這張圖，本席的選區涵蓋八德、大溪及復興，其中的大溪與復興向來都是全國非常重要的觀光重鎮，擁有慈湖、石門水庫、大溪老街、角板山及東眼山等全國知名的景點，年年都吸引許多遊客造訪，在此也要謝謝署長對我們桃園大大小小觀光活動的支持。除了大溪與復興之外，其實八德也蘊藏很多豐富的觀光潛力，擁有很多值得推廣的休憩景點，因此，本席也針對八德的觀光發展向部長請教具體的規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：請教部長，你去過八德嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：去過。"],["邱委員若華：對八德有什麼印象？"],["陳部長世凱：去吃飯，所以只對餐廳有印象。"],["邱委員若華：好，沒關係！我就介紹幾個景點給部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：本席就舉出幾個非常具有代表性的觀光景點，興仁花園夜市是北部最大的夜市，占地6,000坪，擁有400個以上的攤位，是在地人以及遊客必訪的熱點。我們再看下一個景點，八德兒童玩具圖書館，館藏了3萬冊的圖書，最大的特色是結合玩具、閱讀及互動體驗，非常適合親子同遊，可說是推廣家庭旅遊的絕佳場所。下一個是八德埤塘自然生態公園，也是八德區非常重要的休閒生態景點，根據觀光署的統計，它在2024年達到一百四十四萬多的造訪人次，可以看到它非常受到歡迎，也相當具有發展的潛力。下一個是巧克力共和國，它是國內知名品牌七七乳加巧克力所設立的觀光工廠，結合產業文化及體驗活動，非常受到遊客的喜愛。部長，其實八德還有其他非常多值得探索的觀光資源，因為時間的關係，本席就不再一一列舉了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：請教部長，你認為發展觀光的最重要因素是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我想是要讓民眾知道那裡有什麼可以玩的，像剛剛委員提出八德的這些景點，現在我的腦海裡就產生了這些圖像，譬如七七乳加是我從小愛吃的，但我不知道在八德有這個巧克力共和國，現在我就知道了。"],["邱委員若華：歡迎部長來八德。"],["陳部長世凱：有了這個圖像之後，未來我就會去，所以我認為圖像的行銷很重要，讓民眾知道那裡有什麼好玩的。"],["邱委員若華：除了圖像的行銷之外，部長，你還有想到其他的關鍵因素嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：交通，交通也應該要建立。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯！就是交通，大眾運輸的可及性決定了地方的觀光發展。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：以八德為例，如果沒有順暢的交通系統，再好的景點也難以吸引國內外的觀光客前往。部長，請問你知道目前八德正在推動中的幾項重大交通建設嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：其實滿多的，在八德有設計中的交流道改善工程增設……"],["邱委員若華：部長，你提到八德交流道，還有……"],["陳部長世凱：委員是不是也有爭取快速道路？"],["邱委員若華：快速道路，沒錯，還有捷運綠線。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["邱委員若華：本席也多次提到八德的……"],["陳部長世凱：三鶯線延伸八德。"],["邱委員若華：對，部長，你知道此案目前的進度嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前應該是在綜合規劃的進度當中。"],["邱委員若華：目前卡關在行政院，遲遲沒有辦法推進，可以說是遙遙無期，部長……"],["陳部長世凱：我們交通部的審查已經結束，也送到行政院那邊了，現在委員提出對這件事的關心，我會再去行政院了解相關的進度，看看是否有可能加快。"],["邱委員若華：你認為遲遲卡關在行政院的原因是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我就不曉得了。"],["邱委員若華：你不曉得？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["邱委員若華：有沒有其他人可以提供部長資訊？今天沒來嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒關係，我會針對這個部分再去向行政院詢問。"],["邱委員若華：本席也要讓部長知道，捷運三鶯線今年年底完工，預計明（2026）年開始營運，針對三鶯線延伸至八德，交通部在去年9月20日就已經報請行政院核定，本席也多次請部長向卓院長反映，希望行政院儘快回應我們地方鄉親的期待。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：很遺憾，現在已經超過201天，行政院仍然遲遲沒有回覆，所以本席也向行政院提出我的疑問，首先來看這份書面資料，其中的第三點，LB13站與LB12a站的進出站人口偏低，這是行政院給本席的答覆，存在運量不足的疑慮，因此有要求交通部督導地方政府重新評估這兩站的必要性，所以部長有掌握到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：關於這個細節，我並沒有掌握到，既然委員今天做了提醒，我會針對這個細節再去問部裡的審查單位，譬如鐵道局針對這個議題的看法是什麼，我會去詢問他們。"],["邱委員若華：部長，今天你也認識到我們八德有非常多具特色的景點，對於我們地方的觀光發展也非常重要，希望部長可以儘快再次與行政院溝通協調、儘快回應我們鄉親的期盼。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：部長，可以先回座休息。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：請民航局何局長。"],["何局長淑萍：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：局長好。目前兩岸的關係緊張，對岸自2022年起共進行了6次環臺軍演，近期兩次從發布到實施的時間都非常短，以聯合利劍-2024B為例，2024年10月24日凌晨宣布後，早上8點就開始演習；今（2025）年4月1日也是早上突然宣布之後就即刻發動海空聯合演訓，當日有36架共機進入我方的應變區。請問局長，在這樣的情況下，桃園國際機場位於北臺灣的空運樞紐，同時還有新竹的空軍基地以及臺北的松山機場，他們之間的距離都非常相近，當我方軍機緊急升空攔截共軍的時候，民航局這邊以及桃園機場是否也即時掌握軍方戰機緊急起飛的情況？"],["何局長淑萍：報告委員，因為整個臺北飛航情報區包含北部整個空運在內，全都是由我們的飛航服務總台管轄，基本上，其實我們都會與軍方的戰管聯繫，針對相關訊息都會有一些聯繫。關於中共那邊的演習，如果事先在飛航公告上有看到，我們就會做相關的因應措施、相關的預防，剛剛委員提到的幾次演習，如果我們事先知道就會規劃相關的航路……"],["邱委員若華：不好意思，先打斷局長，這樣的軍事活動會不會造成民航機起降的干擾或延誤？"],["何局長淑萍：基本上，因為民航機都有劃定的航路，就這幾次而言，在航行上都算正常，如果有共機方面的訊息，軍方會有掌握、我們也會有掌握，對我們的桃機而言，這幾次並沒有特別的影響。"],["邱委員若華：OK，本席要向局長確認，對於目前這種突然預告就即刻軍演的模式，民航局都有掌握應變措施及流程？"],["何局長淑萍：是。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝局長的說明，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請蔡其昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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有請我們陳部長跟韓市長請部長跟韓市長委員好 部長好 市長好"},{"start":17.233,"end":41.288,"text":"那我想前陣子我們一直看到這個在我們高屏外海有很多艘的一個貨輪甚至是權益輪在那邊滯留那最近也發現有一艘坦尚尼亞的一個貨輪還有一艘柯麥隆的一個貨輪在我們仿山的海嵐區已經滯留大概半年的時間那不曉得我們交通部有沒有掌握相關的一個狀況"},{"start":42.448,"end":62.893,"text":"報告委員 交通部都有掌握相關的狀況而且我們同時跟這個海巡單位也都有聯繫那尤其是我們擔心的這個海纜的問題我們跟中華電信也都有所聯繫那您在提醒的這個船我們已經有在關注了確實這半年裡面它的這個巡擊的狀況有點奇怪有點詭異那我們隨時都在關注"},{"start":63.693,"end":85.445,"text":"部長我想這個不是一個海上交通的問題是很可能是國安的問題是那尤其我想這個我們這個很密集一個海南區域這族人到底有什麼企圖我們都不知道但是滯留半年這個真的就有詭異的現象出現那過去我想包含我們部裡面還有我們相關的單位我想我已經在委員會也提過很多次對"},{"start":86.045,"end":105.595,"text":"務必要全面去清查尤其我們這個高屏沿海這一帶這個停泊的那個這個我們戰略的位置要還有甚至這個一些重要的一些商人的進出我想不能讓這樣子一個狀況發生尤其我們這個整個這個海嵐的安全的必要性那我們有沒有可能做強制一個驅離的動作"},{"start":106.616,"end":131.577,"text":"我們現在應該跟海巡那邊都有聯繫也有拜託海巡那邊有沒有做驅離的廣播其實應該也都有做驅離的廣播但是目前為止你沒有看到他做什麼違法的行徑所以他在那邊的過程當中我們就是用監控的方法我們也請中華電信隨時在看著自己的海欄如果他有接近或者是造成破壞馬上要讓我們知道"},{"start":132.55,"end":151.525,"text":"對 不然除了這個問題之外我還是要提醒因為過去去年我們颱風風太極的時候好幾艘就被對 全部都飄到我們這個高屏沿岸這也造成很大的一個損害所以我想這個怎麼樣再這樣做一個有效的管制安全的控管我們交通部必須要有對策"},{"start":152.005,"end":176.255,"text":"我們針對這個如果颱風要接近的時候我們會做一個管制是20海里還是12海里12海里以內不准他們靠近會把他們驅離到距離遠一點那這個部分我們會拜託海巡協助好 謝謝那我想剛剛我們好幾位委員有特別提到這個陶磯的問題那尤其這個這個我們國人到出國的頻率非常非常的高"},{"start":176.895,"end":204.53,"text":"那淘機又是我們的門面但是目前看起來去年我們的淘機的地勤事故大概平均每個月就有一件那甚至我們每次到委員會這個淘氣楊董事長很辛苦的這個常常也是被委員這個質詢的一個對象那針對這樣一個電線走火行李系統故障甚至停電這些問題董事長到底我們淘機有沒有做怎樣怎麼樣一個內部的檢討"},{"start":206.744,"end":233.819,"text":"是 表列的這幾件的停經事件事實上 不管我個人在內都有參與我們同仁的這個檢討那這些設備因為第一航廈它是在68年啟用到現在所以有些設備的這個巡檢跟汰換的這個時間我們現在已經開始做提前做設備的汰換的這個動作另外每一個事件的發生我們一定會找到它真正發生的原因地點在哪裡有哪些改善的方法"},{"start":234.739,"end":260.71,"text":"那我們現在找到的幾個方法第一個就是我們提前做這個癱瘓巡檢第二個就是我們自己本身員工的部分要加強訓練還有維護廠商的部分那這些每一個事件整個過程當中我們會追根究柢到事件確實有所改善因為它影響的不是只有電力系統它會包括到我們的行李輸送系統等等都在內所以每一個事件我們都會做記錄那未來是希望這樣的一個頻率會減少甚至不會再發生"},{"start":261.45,"end":277.859,"text":"對當然也有可能因為我們現在出國的人數太多了我們原有的第一第二航廈這個量能負擔超載所以造成這個不堪系統的不堪使用那第三航廈部分是不是這個我們的相關的工程進度能請董事長說明一下什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":279.108,"end":305.989,"text":"第三航廈目前我們今年的下半年有一個第一個里程碑就是在下半年的9月10月左右我們的北登基郎廳要開始啟用接下來我們在南登基郎廳跟航廈的部分是在115年的年底之前希望能夠完成116年開始做試營運的動作那相關的還有一個PMS就是我們里克運輸系統會配合主體航廈完成的時間這些都按照原來既定的時間在趕工當中"},{"start":307.611,"end":320.665,"text":"我想這個也是包含立法院還有很多國人的期待希望我們整個淘擠的運作能夠正常然後相關的安全性的考量的承受度都能夠做一個最有效的檢討"},{"start":333.26,"end":360.441,"text":"我想部長跟署長也都很關切我們這個臺灣的一個觀光政策但是呢我現在本行要提出來就是我們在2019年觀光署提出一個2030年的一個臺灣觀光政策的白皮書那距離現在有一段時間但是呢我們現在看到過去我們訂定的一個2025年的一個臺灣來臺的旅客人數設定是1600萬人次但是很遺憾去年只有750"},{"start":362.544,"end":376.063,"text":"85萬 那今年預估是1000萬但是呢 根據我們拜祕書看起來比我們的那個保守值的1246萬還少了 那我想這部分的落差 這個部長跟署長我們要怎麼樣來加強"},{"start":378.058,"end":399.876,"text":"跟委員報告這個白皮書是在疫情之前2019年把它完成的最後在2020年發表那這個是一個算是學術跟產業界的綜合那我們本來就是滾動式的檢討所以我們在2023年也就是我們國防署成立的時候我們就再檢討了一次"},{"start":400.596,"end":415.738,"text":"那麼在這個我們這個520的時候我們在就是去年的5月30號在行政院有做一個修正做一個報告所以這個報告基本上這個白皮書的部分已經做滾動式的檢討是"},{"start":418.02,"end":432.005,"text":"我們目前的部分就像部長講的我們還是以千萬來台這樣子一個標準在努力我們希望能夠合理這部分的產生因為我們前陣子委員會也有到屏東來考察"},{"start":432.585,"end":459.048,"text":"那特別我想部長這個我們也一直在路上一直在討論整個這個整個重大交通的建設甚至觀光產業的一個整個協助的部分我想一定要從軟硬體全面來做檢討甚至我們在很多的一個觀光的這個誘因策略上面是不是有不一樣的想法我想這部分值得我們所有的產官學界大家共同來努力但是現在另外就是美國這個關稅政策"},{"start":459.868,"end":484.614,"text":"以後造成這個很多的一個產業的衝擊那我想觀光業可能我們這個業者也出了一彈那真的這部分部長這邊有什麼看法報告委員目前的衝擊到底有多大我想還沒有人估得出來那但是業者如果到時候受到衝擊需要協助的部分觀光署現在就會開始做準備如果真的有遇到很大的衝擊那業者需要幫忙我們一定會幫忙"},{"start":485.274,"end":506.289,"text":"那委員也在提醒所以這個部分我們就先來預作準備那不過我覺得衝擊到底多大這還需要一段時間的觀察那我們現在就會開始密切觀察它到底影響有多大因為目前為止稅率到底多少還沒有任何一個國家知道大家都還在變動當中那到底對經濟的影響有多大也還不曉得我們會密切來觀察這件事"},{"start":507.245,"end":529.098,"text":"這次也要謝謝部長跟署長我想針對整個屏東縣的觀光我們大概到這個今年底大概有一些的策略尤其這個交通部我們搭配了我們的國家公園署那搭配屏東縣政府我們也預定了很多的不一樣的一個活動的一個項目當然也是希望我們所有的國內外的遊客都能夠到屏東來"},{"start":529.878,"end":552.882,"text":"但是就是一樣這個我要提出這個論調就是說活動很好像這次清明年叫做臺灣祭人很多但是我覺得不能只靠這樣的一個活動的行銷怎麼樣去強迫我們整個這個觀光的一個亮點甚至這個在業者他們需要的一些配套上面怎麼樣給他們挹注的一個力道"},{"start":553.382,"end":580.328,"text":"我想這保齡最清楚啦 是是他們有很多的想法但是苦於得不到我們關愛的眼神 是是這保齡是不是我們可以再來強化一下跟所有的旅館業者民宿業者的一個合作會 這個部分的合作我們會繼續來努力我們也跟他們都有聯繫好那最後一張我們看一下我們這個墾丁南灣這個保齡這樣有漂亮嗎 這個陽傘有漂亮嗎現在比過去好看好看啊 好看那我想這個也是我們在觀光署在我們在跟國家公園"},{"start":580.948,"end":601.618,"text":"管理處這邊合作的一個把這個南灣海灘把它美化的一個畫面這樣的一個跨部會的合作也是我們期待的那我也會再邀請我們相關的單位未來針對怎樣的一個觀光的一個策略的部分做有效的一個檢討希望我們部裡面也全力支持那歡迎大家到美麗的墾丁來玩謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時41分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長及韓司長。"],["主席：請部長及韓司長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好、司長好。前陣子我們看到在高屏外海有多艘貨輪，甚至權宜輪就在那邊滯留，最近也發現一艘坦尚尼亞的貨輪及一艘喀麥隆的貨輪在我們枋山的海纜區滯留了大概半年的時間，不知道交通部是否掌握到相關的狀況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，交通部都有掌握相關的狀況，同時與海巡單位也都有聯繫，尤其是我們擔心的海纜問題，我們也都與中華電信有所聯繫。針對委員提醒的這艘船，我們已經開始關注，它的循跡狀況在這半年內確實有點奇怪、有點詭異，所以我們隨時都在關注。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我認為這個並不是海上交通的問題，很可能是國安的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其是處於海纜的密集區域，這些船隻是否有什麼樣的企圖，我們也都不知道，但是滯留了半年，真的就是很詭異的現象。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：過去我在委員會已經對部裡或相關單位提過許多次，務必要全面清查。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其是高屏沿海一帶停泊時，除了戰略位置之外，也有一些重要商輪的進出，我認為不該讓這樣的狀況發生，尤其事關整個海纜的安全重要性，是否有可能作強制驅離的動作？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在與海巡都有連繫，也拜託海巡進行驅離的廣播，其實應該也都有做驅離的廣播，但是到目前為止並未看到它做什麼違法的行徑，所以我們對於停泊過程就是採用監控的方法。同時我們也請中華電信隨時監看自己的海纜，如果它有接近或造成破壞，馬上要讓我們知道。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，除了這個問題之外，我還是要提醒，因為去年颱風時期就有好幾艘……"],["陳部長世凱：好幾艘擱淺。"],["徐委員富癸：對，全部都漂到我們的高屏沿岸，造成了很大的損害，因此，如何做一個有效的管制、安全的控管，我們交通部必須要有對策。"],["陳部長世凱：在颱風將要接近的時候，我們會做一個管制，在12浬以內不准他們靠近，會將他們驅離到遠一點的距離，這個部分我會拜託海巡協助。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。剛剛好幾位委員特別提到桃機的問題，尤其現在國人出國的頻率非常非常高，而且桃機又是我們的門面，但是去年桃機地勤大概平均每個月會發生一件事故，所以桃機的楊董事長也相當辛苦，常常在委員會成為委員質詢的對象。針對電線走火、行李系統故障、甚至是停電等等問題，董事長，到底桃機有沒有進行什麼樣的內部檢討？"],["楊董事長偉甫：是，關於表列的幾個事件，事實上，包括我個人在內也都有參與我們同仁所做的檢討。因為第一航廈從68年就啟用到現在，針對有些設備的巡檢及汰換的時間，我們現在已經開始提前進行汰換設備的動作。另外，針對每一個發生的事件，我們一定會找到它真正的發生原因、地點在哪裡以及有哪些改善的方法，現在我們找到了幾個方法：第一個，是提前進行汰換巡檢；第二個，是我們的員工要加強訓練，也包括維護廠商的部分。我們會針對每個事件的整個過程去追根究柢，直到事件確實有所改善，因為它影響的不只是電力系統，還包括了行李輸送系統等等在內，所以我們會針對每個事件進行記錄，希望未來這樣的頻率會減少，甚至不會再發生。"],["徐委員富癸：當然也可能是因為現在我們的出國人數太多，導致原有的第一、第二航廈量能負擔超載，造成系統不堪使用，因此，針對第三航廈的相關工程進度，能否請董事長說明一下，什麼時候可以完成？"],["楊董事長偉甫：關於第三航廈，我們在今年下半年會有第一個里程碑，也就是在9月、10月左右，我們的北登機廊廳要開始啟用，接下來是南登機廊廳及航廈的部分，希望能在115年的年底之前完成，並從116年開始試營運。此外，還有一個相關的PMS，也就是旅客運輸系統，將會配合主體航廈完成的時間，這些都按照原本既定的時間正在趕工當中。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這是包括立法院以及許多國人的期待，希望整個桃機的運作能夠正常，相關安全性考量的承受度也都能做最有效的檢討，董事長請回，謝謝。","接著要請教周署長。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：我想部長及署長也都很關切臺灣的觀光政策，在2019年的時候，觀光署提出了2030年臺灣觀光政策白皮書，距離現在已經有一段時間了，我們看到其中設定的2025年來臺旅客人數是1,600萬人次，很遺憾的，去年只達到785萬人次，而今年的預估是1,000萬人次，但是根據這份白皮書，看起來是比我們的保守值1,246萬人次還少，針對這個部分的落差，部長及署長，我們該如何加強？"],["周署長永暉：報告委員，這份白皮書是在疫情之前，也就是在2019年完成，最後在2020年發表，它算是學術與產業界的綜合，我們原本就是採取滾動式的檢討，所以我們在2023年，也就是觀光署成立時再檢討了一次。去年的5月30日我們在行政院做了一個修正、做了一個報告，基本上，這個白皮書的部分已經做了滾動式的檢討。目前的部分，就像部長所講的，我們還是以千萬人次來臺作為努力的標準，希望國旅這個部分的產值能夠提升。"],["徐委員富癸：前陣子我們委員會也去了屏東考察，在途中我們與部長討論到整個重大的交通建設以及對觀光產業協助的部分，我想一定要從軟硬體去做全面的檢討，甚至在許多的觀光誘因、策略上是不是能有不一樣的想法，這個部分值得所有產官學界大家共同努力。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["徐委員富癸：此外，美國的關稅政策也會造成許多產業的衝擊，我想觀光業者也是「剉咧等」，針對這個部分，部長有什麼看法？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前的衝擊到底有多大，我想還沒有人估得出來，但是，對於到時候業者受到衝擊需要協助的部分，觀光署現在就會開始進行準備。如果真的遇到很大的衝擊，只要業者需要幫忙，我們也一定會幫忙，再加上委員的提醒，所以我們會針對這個部分預做準備。不過，我覺得衝擊到底有多大，還需要一段時間的觀察，所以我們現在就會開始密切觀察到底它的影響會有多大，因為稅率到底是多少，目前為止還沒有一個國家知道，大家都還處於變動當中，到底對經濟的影響有多大也還不知道，所以我們會密切觀察這件事。"],["徐委員富癸：在這裡也要謝謝部長及署長，針對整個屏東縣的觀光，到今年底大致已有一些策略，尤其交通部搭配國家公園署與屏東縣政府律定了很多不一樣的活動項目，希望能吸引國內外遊客到屏東來。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：但我還是要提出這個論調，活動當然是很好，像這次清明連假的「台灣祭」，哇！熱鬧滾滾！"],["陳部長世凱：人很多。"],["徐委員富癸：但是我認為不能只靠這樣的活動行銷，如何強化整個觀光的亮點，甚至針對業者需要的配套，如何給予他們挹注的力道，相信部長是最清楚的！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：他們有很多的想法，但是苦於得不到我們關愛的眼神，因此，我們是不是可以再強化與所有旅館業者、民宿業者的合作？"],["陳部長世凱：會，關於這個部分的合作，我們會繼續努力，而且我們與他們也都有聯繫。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，看一下墾丁南灣的這張圖片，部長，這樣漂亮嗎？這個陽傘漂亮嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：現在比過去好看。"],["徐委員富癸：好看喔！"],["陳部長世凱：好看。"],["徐委員富癸：這是觀光署與國家公園管理處合作美化南灣海灘之後的畫面，我想這樣的跨部會合作是我們期待的，所以我也會再邀集相關單位，針對未來觀光策略的部分進行有效的檢討，希望部裡也能全力支持。"],["陳部長世凱：好，當然，我們一起努力。"],["徐委員富癸：歡迎大家到美麗的墾丁來玩，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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去個十趟一趟補助他那個什麼旅遊費一萬塊他都願意去他都願意去喔願意去的話就一個月只要花個十萬塊一年不過花一百二十萬像這種事情觀光署風景管理處都可以去做的嘛"},{"start":377.185,"end":403.848,"text":"是不是巡迴街頭做一些藝人的表演也不錯也不一定整天都待在那個坑道裡面是不是是你在外面街頭也可以表演住信什麼等等部長你覺得呢我覺得馬祖的整體觀光環境非常好值得推廣那我們也會來努力委員其實也一直都在交代跟指導很多的工作我們其實我聽觀光組在說也都蠻配合"},{"start":405.269,"end":423.368,"text":"部長知道我是不敢啦,因為畢竟你們真的是專業啦所以我也期待交通部還有州署長這邊好不好對馬祖這個部分多努力一下好不好因為真的很慘,網路上都罵翻了我也跟我們的鄉親報告可是很像最近訂房率很像不錯"},{"start":424.629,"end":453.749,"text":"五到八月份慢慢就上來了五到八月份狀況很像還不錯,所以有些人說訂不到房但是真的還是加油,五月以前真的很糟糕那我也跟鄉親報告,這全世界的我們全國性的,尤其大陸旅客不來,我們現在歡迎不歡迎大陸旅客來?很歡迎一直都歡迎,只是小兩會的溝通他們一直不願意接受你不要去擋嘛沒有擋,只是他們不願意開始談"},{"start":454.829,"end":475.686,"text":"大家不要吵架嘛你們吵吵鬧鬧在那邊你言我語的都沒有講好話自然把氣氛就搞壞了嘛氣氛搞壞怎麼來的是不是所以福州那邊我不是跟通匪幹什麼沒有這個回事喔而是說希望我們藉著"},{"start":477.656,"end":486.956,"text":"藉著金門馬祖,能夠把兩岸的一些問題,我們希望和平,希望能夠緩和好不好好那周市長你請回好不好"},{"start":488.376,"end":501.842,"text":"我接下來要詢問的是北竿機場擴建的期程北竿機場的擴建已經啟動了因為地區部分有心人士這個誤用數據那麼做了一些錯誤的訊息傳達給鄉親我希望部長對本席能夠"},{"start":512.145,"end":531.624,"text":"很清楚的報告北竿機場新建的騎乘到底需要多少時間當然今天如果講得不夠完整的話我們等駿馬祖交通考察的時候我們來共同面對鄉親他們提出的疑問我們來給他做解答"},{"start":533.17,"end":548.243,"text":"這裡面北竿機場的擴建,進行跑道公營,這個工程很像先由港務公司來承包做一些維提、維提等等這些作業這裡面工程大概幾乎佔了機場的三分之二還有做沉箱什麼的那2024年底正式"},{"start":562.606,"end":589.154,"text":"施工的澳門機場,他也是邊坐邊走主席你請坐好不好,我再給我兩分鐘,謝謝,很快我們也可以根據澳門機場的新建的狀況你可以邊坐邊走嘛,是不是既然有這些先例,本市也希望交通部能夠一力對北竿機場跑道的擴建工程"},{"start":590.793,"end":610.184,"text":"降低施工率,對北竿的影響盡量能夠降低,這一點你先回答我好不好?謝謝報告委員,我們在細部設計的時候會盡量把那個影響的部分降低,您今天在提醒何局長先回答我一下何局長,就你所知的部分回答我一下好不好?"},{"start":611.465,"end":630.517,"text":"有關這個就是說在違體造地期間包含未來的施工期間大概之前都一直在講七年多的時間那本來是說我們是用最保守的方式來說會關廠嘛那可是未來在細設的時候就是在港公司這個建造標細設的時候我們會來考慮未來營運期間的董事長你也幫忙一下好不好"},{"start":634.819,"end":641.429,"text":"幫忙一下,儘量晚上施工,夜間施工,不影響飛航的時間好不好"},{"start":643.867,"end":669.406,"text":"目前我們在準備那個前置作業在準備備標那備標以後找到選商了以後因為你們在施工的時候就不影響飛行的安全嘛所有的情況我們都會納入考量那麼大概民航局的部分就是跑到撲滅嘛是不是撲滅的時間應該一兩年就完工了所以盡量朝著兩年的時間去走好不好那董事長你請回另外我想請問一下局長"},{"start":671.67,"end":690.56,"text":"高雄到馬祖的航線6月6號啟航我上次在總諮詢的時候曾經提出來有哪個縣市要用補貼的政策來處理它既然是固定的航線,而且是新開的航線我希望交通部這邊"},{"start":692.763,"end":718.7,"text":"你不要限制我來出錢嘛好不好剩下的問題我也跟部長報告過,部長也承諾啊可是之前像是縣政府有說他們要補貼嘛目前現在他是定期航線目前短的時間,限制我補貼一些沒關係但是你們這邊要去檢討了好不好跟你們一些時間去檢討我們希望他的運量能夠拉起來當然當然那票價確定了沒有"},{"start":721.702,"end":750.373,"text":"票價已經核定了票價已經核定了嘛那你也督導那個華信趕快報來好不好因為我們有一些行程要安排還有就是北竿北竿航空站的停車場目前一共是81加3有81個是81個位置是樓下的停車場3個位置是遊覽車的嘛84個目前固定停車的大概只有一成五只有8部車子停在裡面"},{"start":751.633,"end":764.698,"text":"那聆聽大概只有個為數我之前你們要求說三個月滾動式檢討因為當然有審計部審計的問題在裡面審計的問題可能你們也會面臨檢討那現在原來講說三個月調整到兩個月滾動式檢討局長我拜託是不是能夠一個月現在就開始滾動檢討因為你那邊變成一個蚊子館"},{"start":780.075,"end":798.052,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想蓋的北竿機場應該不是要讓它變成文字館我們還是會希望北竿的現在已經是啦那現在大概因為剛開始嘛那現在大概是一層多那目前來講我們還是會跟縣府再來一起合作啦看看如何來鼓勵鄉親不然你趕快開會嘛好不好"},{"start":799.253,"end":817.951,"text":"對那至於滾動檢討部分我們再觀察一下你們能不能責成這個民營航空站趕快去縣政府討論然後對民眾還是共同來討論一下因為現在月租一千二嘛其實現在訂的價格大概已經打折了他們原來縣政府那個是山龍那邊停車場是六百啦"},{"start":819.52,"end":837.107,"text":"你看老闆一車子不停進去,滿街還是車子我們的停車位可惜了,我想民防局也不是要賺錢嘛,是不是你起碼收一點租金,維持清潔費就可以了好不好好,何市長你請回,最後一個就是馬祖大橋"},{"start":840.427,"end":862.599,"text":"我那一種事情對院長回答我真的很不滿意你怎麼英國的商人來可以推算出來需要四百多億、三百八十七億這個數字哪裡來的你聽聽世襲的說法好不好我想說英商我也不便去推翻他他什麼都沒有他只是根據世襲的"},{"start":867.408,"end":886.524,"text":"這個結構設計,綜合計畫的設計,然後算出來,那世襲那是假的嗎?你叫世襲去算嘛,算一下是不是跟行政院再報告一下?不然院長他不是很瞭解,你看我那天跟世襲在瞭解還不知道勒,連這個案子連看都沒看到,這還得了啊我們再跟世襲來瞭解好不好,我想立法委員再立法院的質詢"},{"start":887.967,"end":899.326,"text":"院長一定要了認於胸,不能說連案子都沒看到你也可以追蹤嘛,因為委員在詢問啊是不是部長這點請你幫忙一下好不好好那謝謝主席耽誤你的時間,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":732,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時26分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳部長、觀光署周署長及民航局何局長。"],["主席：請部長、署長、局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長好。2023年5月1號疫情解封以後，國人出國旅遊的人數大增，但是來臺旅遊的國際旅客人數卻沒有達到我們的預期，以致國內旅遊的市場大幅衰退，衰退的程度尤以離島最為顯著，也就是金門、馬祖及澎湖，赴離島旅遊的人數也大幅衰減。國旅衰退，離島旅遊崩壞，離島居民的生計就受到影響，因為我們以觀光立縣嘛，離島的觀光相關產業現在只能靠吃老本，吃老本硬撐到現在，已經面臨到民宿關閉、餐廳歇業的困境。但隨著國際旅遊型態的改變，單一只是做官網是不夠的，現在官網已經沒人看了，因為現在的型態已經改變了，希望能夠深化馬祖景區，推動各鄉觀光的廊帶，以吸引更多觀光客到離島去旅遊，這比較重要。本席希望交通部及觀光署對離島地區挹注更多的經費，我希望能夠三年有15億的經費去深化離島的景區，對於旅遊的行銷，現在的網路已經不符期待了，都是社群、媒體，也請觀光署督促風景管理處，或是觀光署這邊對離島的一些景點能夠多做宣傳。我看電視上常常有一些宣傳嘛，但很少講到馬祖、金門，金門當然會比較多一點啦。","離島旅宿業者原本期望開放陸團來，但陸團來問題很多，縣長、議長跟我，我們常常去福建招攬觀光客，當然我們也有我們的原因，我們的民宿滿貴的，團費大概要1萬出頭，所以有些人就寧願到韓國比較便宜的地方去旅遊了。然後比如有個媽祖團要來，但內政部說要拿財報、會計報告，但我們那個廟哪有這個東西，沒有嘛！還有體育團體要來還要送到體育署去審查，審查又不通過，裡面有一些官方的人又不准他來，他來有什麼關係呢？到馬祖來，馬祖如果會被吃掉的話，如果要被統戰早就被統戰走了，是不是？所以有一些事情不要把它邊緣化。像昨天有一個姓陳的到馬祖去說陳雪生是中共的走狗，我是它走狗嗎？是不是？這亂講話，說我短命什麼的，你這種罷免的操作不符期待，所以被老百姓罵，老百姓通通站出來罵，他被罵完以後落荒而逃，今天已經回來了。我是說在部長協調相關部門時，能不能人家要來就讓他們來嘛，我們去弄了老半天，然後你們這邊又去阻擋，是不是？像臺灣的陸客開放團，他們說要透過什麼小兩會，我那天回來跟周署長講過了，小兩會他們是同意開的耶，他們同意開小兩會喔，不是不同意，因為小兩會是次團體嘛，但我們好像又在擋，我們這邊又把它叫停了，所以陸客來沒有問題啊！"],["陳部長世凱：如果他們願意透過小兩會，我們非常歡迎啊，不會喊停。"],["陳委員雪生：他們願意啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們也很願意啊！"],["陳委員雪生：那你們主動去談嘛！人家已經釋出善意了，臺灣還在罵……"],["陳部長世凱：我們其實有向對岸表達，小兩會之間的會議希望能夠開啟啦！"],["陳委員雪生：好，部長，我剛剛問的問題，你回答我一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：目前是他們沒有給我們回應。"],["陳委員雪生：我剛剛提到離島觀光的事情要去加強……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：比如像慢跑活動、慢城，你們說慢城的話全國都有，那換個名稱嘛，是不是？把機制啟動嘛！慢城啦、慢跑啦，或是其他你能夠做的嘛，我們北海坑道可以充分利用嘛，你可以找一些小提琴樂手在我們的北海坑道裡面去拉小提琴，望春風啊什麼的，那個拉得令人如癡如醉……"],["陳部長世凱：對，我有去聽過，真的非常好。"],["陳委員雪生：你聽過嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我去聽過，非常好。"],["陳委員雪生：現在很多有登記的街頭藝人啊，你可以跟他訂嘛，比如說一個月去個四趟、去個十趟，一趟補助他旅費1萬塊，他都願意去耶，這樣一個月只要花個10萬塊，一年不過花個120萬，像這種事情，觀光署、風景管理處都可以去做的嘛，是不是？巡迴街頭做一些藝人表演，也不錯啊，也不一定整天都待在那個坑道裡面啊，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：在外面街頭上也可以表演啊，助興啊，什麼等等嘛，部長你覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得馬祖的整體觀光環境非常好啦，值得推廣，我們也會來努力，其實一直以來委員都交代跟指導很多的工作，我聽觀光署在處理也都滿配合，也都全力在協助……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，指導我是不敢啦，畢竟你們真的是專業啦，所以我也期待交通部還有周署長這邊針對馬祖的部分多努力一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：因為真的很慘，網路上都罵翻了，我也跟我們的鄉親報告……"],["陳部長世凱：可是最近訂房率好像不錯，最近很多人跟我反映說……"],["陳委員雪生：就5到8月份慢慢就上來了。"],["陳部長世凱：對，5到8月份的狀況好像還不錯，所以有些人說訂不到房。"],["陳委員雪生：5到8月份慢慢上來了，但是真的還是加油啦！"],["陳部長世凱：要，要努力。"],["陳委員雪生：5月以前真的很糟糕啊，我也跟鄉親報告這是全世界的、全國性的，尤其大陸旅客不來，請問我們現在歡迎不歡迎大陸旅客來？"],["陳部長世凱：很歡迎啊。"],["陳委員雪生：很歡迎嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：一直都歡迎，只是小兩會的溝通他們一直不願意接受嘛。"],["陳委員雪生：不是，很歡迎就不要去擋嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：沒有擋，只是他們不願意開始談。"],["陳委員雪生：大家不要吵架嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員雪生：在那邊吵吵鬧鬧的，你一言我一語的，都沒有講好話，自然把氣氛就搞壞了嘛，氣氛搞壞人還怎麼來呢，是不是？所以福州那邊，我有跟他們……我不是通匪或幹什麼，沒有這回事喔！而是希望藉著金門、馬祖，對於兩岸的一些問題，我們希望能夠和平，希望能夠緩和，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：周署長，請回。","接下來要詢問的是北竿機場擴建的期程，北竿機場的擴建已經啟動了，因為地區部分有心人士誤用數據，做了一些錯誤的訊息傳達給鄉親，我希望部長能夠很清楚的報告本席，北竿機場興建的期程到底需要多少時間？當然，今天如果講得不夠完整的話，我們等交通委員會去馬祖考察的時候共同面對鄉親們提出的疑問，我們來給他們做解答啦！有關北竿機場的擴建，要進行跑道東移，這個工程好像先由港務公司來承包做一些圍堤作業……"],["陳部長世凱：對，港務公司現在辦理設計跟監造的招標。"],["陳委員雪生：這裡面工程大概幾乎占了機場的三分之二，還有做沉箱什麼的。2024年底正式施工的澳門機場也是邊做邊走……主席，你請坐，好不好？再給我2分鐘，謝謝，很快的。"],["主席：1分鐘啦，大家都在等。"],["陳委員雪生：我們也可以根據澳門機場的興建狀況，你可以邊做邊走嘛，是不是？既然有這些先例，本席也希望交通部能夠依例針對北竿機場跑道的擴建工程，讓施工對北竿航班的影響儘量能夠降低，這一點你先回答我，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們在細部設計的時候會儘量把影響的部分降低，您今天再次提醒，我們在設計的過程中……"],["陳委員雪生：是不是請何局長先回答我一下？何局長，就你所知的部分回答我一下，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：有關在圍堤造地期間，包含未來的施工期間，大概之前都已經講了，是七年多的時間，本來我們是用最保守的方式來說會關場嘛，可是未來在細設的時候，就是在港公司監造標細設的時候，我們會來考慮未來營運期間的相關搭配……"],["陳委員雪生：董事長，你也幫忙一下，好不好？幫忙一下，儘量晚上施工、夜間施工，不影響飛航的時間，好不好？"],["李董事長賢義：目前我們在準備前置作業，在準備備標，備標後找到選商了以後……"],["陳委員雪生：因為你們在施工的時候就不影響飛行的安全嘛！"],["李董事長賢義：所有的情況我們都會納入考量……"],["陳委員雪生：民航局的部分就是跑道鋪面嘛，是不是？鋪面的時間應該一、兩年就完工了啦，所以儘量朝著兩年的時間去走，好不好？","董事長，請回。","另外我想請問一下局長，高雄到馬祖的航線6月6號啟航嘛？"],["何局長淑萍：對，他們目前規劃……"],["陳委員雪生：我上次在總質詢的時候曾經提出來，有哪個縣市要用補貼的政策來處理？既然是固定的航線，而且是新開的航線，我希望交通部這邊不要縣政府來出錢嘛，好不好？剩下的問題我也跟部長報告過，部長也承諾還要回去檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：可是之前好像是縣政府有說他們要補貼嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：目前是定期航線，如果……"],["陳委員雪生：目前短時間內縣政府補貼一些沒關係，但是你們這邊要去檢討了，好不好？給你們一些時間去檢討，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望它的運量能夠拉起來，運量拉起來就不用補貼了。"],["陳委員雪生：當然、當然，票價核定了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：所以朝這個方向先來努力。"],["何局長淑萍：票價已經核定了。"],["陳委員雪生：票價已經核定了嘛，那你也督導華信趕快報來，好不好？因為我們有一些行程要安排。還有就是北竿航空站的停車場目前一共是81加3，有81個位置是樓下的停車場，3個位置是遊覽車的，共計84個，目前固定停車的大概只有一成五，只有8部車子停在裡面，臨停大概只有個位數。之前是說三個月滾動式檢討，當然有審計部的審計問題在裡面，審計的問題可能你們也會面臨檢討嘛，原來講說三個月調整到二個月滾動式檢討，局長，我拜託是不是能夠改為一個月，現在就開始滾動檢討？因為那邊變成一個蚊子館了啊！"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，我想蓋北竿機場應該不是要讓它變成蚊子館，我們還是會希望北竿的鄉親來運用……"],["陳委員雪生：現在已經是了啊，所以……"],["何局長淑萍：因為剛開始嘛，現在大概是一成多，目前來講，我們還是會跟縣府一起合作啦，看看如何鼓勵鄉親儘量運用……"],["陳委員雪生：你趕快開會嘛，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：對，至於滾動檢討的部分，我們再觀察一下，看看狀況，因為現在……"],["陳委員雪生：你們能不能責成民用航空站趕快跟縣政府討論，然後對民眾……還是共同來討論一下嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：因為現在月租1,200元，其實現在訂的價格大概已經打折了……"],["陳委員雪生：縣政府那邊三樓的停車場大概是600元啦，你看，老百姓的車子不停進去，滿街還是車子，我們的停車位可惜了……"],["何局長淑萍：所以這個我們會跟縣府再一起來合作。"],["陳委員雪生：我想民航局也不是要賺錢嘛，是不是？你起碼弄一點……"],["何局長淑萍：我們還是希望它充分運用……"],["陳委員雪生：收一點租金維持清潔費就可以了，好不好？","何局長，你請回。","最後一個就是馬祖大橋，部長，我對於那天總質詢時院長的回答真的很不滿意，怎麼英國的商人來可以推算出來需要四百多億，387億，這個數字哪裡來的？你聽聽世曦的說法，好不好？好不好？我想說英商的我也不便去推翻它啦，它什麼東西都沒有，只是根據世曦的結構設計、綜合計畫的設計，然後算出來，那世曦的東西是假的嗎？你叫世曦去算嘛，算一下之後，是不是跟行政院再報告一下，不然院長他不是很了解……"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們跟世曦再瞭解。"],["陳委員雪生：你看我那天總質詢的時候，院長還不知道咧，這個案子連看都沒看到，這還得了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們再跟世曦來瞭解這個狀況。"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？對於立法委員在立法院的質詢，我認為院長一定要了然於胸，不能連案子都沒看到。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你也可以追蹤嘛！因為委員已經提出詢問了，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，這一點請你幫忙一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝主席，耽誤你的時間了，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，並不會耽誤我的時間，只是因為太多人了，我比較不好意思，請大家稍微控制一下時間。","現在請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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請主席邀請陳部長還有周署長請部長署長委員好部長署長早安那今天委員會的主題主要其中一個就是針對如何推動國際旅客來台觀光那所以我們也先來看一下就是說最近幾年有關這個國際旅客來台的人次"},{"start":29.872,"end":50.903,"text":"所呈現的這個狀況那當然在109年高達1300多萬那之後就是有這個疫情的關係那在疫情之後我們的這個觀光人次也有漸漸在回升那在今年我們看到就是觀光署也"},{"start":51.483,"end":60.996,"text":"自己定了一個目標就是說要達到一千萬人次那我想請問一下這個部分我們能達標嗎"},{"start":62.699,"end":91.516,"text":"今年能達標嗎部長有信心嗎我們去年沒有做到的今年想辦法做到我知道去年原本設定的目標是1200萬那個更高那實際上後來觀光署把目標修成1000萬那我們去年也沒有達到1000萬所以我們今年努力來把它達標不過我們能夠做到的一定要做到的就是說今年的國際觀光來台的旅客的人次一定要比去年更多我們一定要有成長"},{"start":92.156,"end":111.71,"text":"那成長的幅度我們希望能夠拉大 大到能夠到達一千萬是 好 那這個聽部長的回答 就是可以看出來這個部長確實有掌握啦因為我要提醒啦 真的在去年年初 署長信誓旦旦的對外宣誓這個要達到一千兩百萬的這個觀光 國際觀光人次"},{"start":115.052,"end":143.314,"text":"可是呢兩度下修嘛那最後的一個數字是786萬真的差距是甚大所以我們也是希望就是說這個數字不要隨便喊一喊就是我們當然要衡量之後才去設定這個目標然後設定目標之後要努力去達成所以我想這個就是要提醒我們交通部跟觀光署這個數字不是輕菜化花的我們一定要努力去落實"},{"start":144.375,"end":160.644,"text":"那我們看到說當然我們部長也有說要努力來達成這個目標可是因為我們也看到就是最近有發生了一個震撼彈就是這個川普美國總統他宣布了這個就是關稅的一個問題對整個國際的經濟市場都是一個很重大的一個衝擊那這個部分對究竟對我們台灣的一個觀光業的一個"},{"start":171.669,"end":191.736,"text":"發展有沒有什麼樣的影響不曉得交通部有沒有及時的去做一個盤點那有沒有一個因應的一個措施報告委員其實這件事才剛發生幾天那這件事到底對於全球的整個經濟跟景氣跟經貿的影響到底有多大我相信各國都還在評估當中所以目前大家的數字都還沒出來"},{"start":192.276,"end":210.887,"text":"那包含關稅實際的數字也還沒出來所以交通部這邊跟觀光署這邊只能夠預作準備什麼樣子的預作準備就是我們密切的觀察因為目前為止觀光客才幾天的時間看不出來那個變化但我們會密切的觀察整個觀光的人士也好或者是說整個旅遊的狀況也好"},{"start":212.048,"end":229.338,"text":"或者是住房率也好我們會密切的觀察它的影響有多大那如果真的影響非常大的時候我們就會來做因應的措施因應的措施包含我們再加強宣傳或者是說再加強活動那另外業者一定也會受到一些衝擊對業者的協助應該做什麼我們目前正在盤點當中"},{"start":230.687,"end":251.047,"text":"對 是我們就是說要先提早做好一些準備一些規劃的一個方案當然就是說先做好準備那當然就是說發生的時候我們才能夠迅速的去做一個因應那因為很多觀光業者也很擔心說是不是這個觀光產業又要進入寒冬了所以我覺得這個都是業者說"},{"start":252.548,"end":271.484,"text":"這個擔心的那當然就是說我們在這個要吸引國際旅客來談那觀光署有針對這個部分然後在這個這幾年的這個預算裡面也都有一個項目就是精準客源的開拓計畫那這個計畫我們看到就是從110年一直到"},{"start":275.187,"end":300.644,"text":"114年今年度的這個預算的數字可以說是年年在增加那今年呢114年比去年113年度的這個增加的一個比例啊可以說是非常的高啦那這個部分我不曉得說我們這樣子的一個開頭計劃有特別新的執行內容嗎那預期的效益如何我是不是請署長回答一下"},{"start":301.96,"end":315.845,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們為了拓展多元市場所以我們在國際行銷的部分是增加2億那麼也謝謝委員的支持那這個部分呢我們原則上就是希望能夠這個增加雙印"},{"start":317.325,"end":344.868,"text":"雙印這個部分我們希望能夠現在看起來跟外交部在談就是印度可能會先設辦事處然後再來是印尼那麼北美市場的成長是我們比較樂觀的所以還有佈局歐洲這件事情是我們更急迫所以我們現在是以這個西歐跟中歐為主那麼我們慢慢希望能夠往北所以我們今年會在河南阿姆斯特丹設"},{"start":346.39,"end":372.628,"text":"這個台灣觀光旅遊服務中心那麼這樣子一個布局對於我們這個也是需要透過這樣的預算的支持還有我們也希望能夠米其林這個部分是一個品牌所以我們今年也會增加兩個城市來推廣台灣的美食文化那這個對歐美人士是非常有吸引力的特別跟委員報告"},{"start":373.388,"end":386.99,"text":"是當然這個預算我們是支持啦可是我們希望就是說這個預算你們在執行上執行率要好然後要有效果因為我不曉得說你們的執行率如何是不是可以先講一下"},{"start":388.878,"end":402.898,"text":"我們在國際行銷的這個執行率的裡面其實都執行率超過95%以上所以這個部分這個也謝謝委員的支持那麼我們有一些固定的這個"},{"start":404.821,"end":422.878,"text":"就等於是五路齊發嘛包括我們的這個所謂的推廣會參加旅展那旅展的部分我們也增加了一些那譬如說我們沒有事辦事處的我們就拜託外交部他們有外管那透過外管的方式來協助我們那費用是由我們這邊來支應是"},{"start":424.98,"end":440.471,"text":"好那當然就是說要精準的這個課員的開拓那就是必須針對不同的國家不同的民主的他們的特性喜好來規劃不同的這樣子的一個宣傳那我不曉得說"},{"start":441.432,"end":468.721,"text":"這個觀光署的一個網站本席區瀏覽了一下我們發現說這個都是一樣的一個內容只是不同的語言你點進去只是那個語言文字的一個轉換可是內容都一樣我不曉得說這樣子的一個內容可以吸引到不同國際的客群的一個吸引力嗎所以我們要不斷的擴充我們的Database但是我們外觀就不一樣"},{"start":469.821,"end":497.536,"text":"我們有16個外館所以外館也有他的網站那這個是我們我們自己本身的這個網站我想就是說我們這個部分也跟22個縣市政府做串接外館是外交部喔對不起我們的駐外辦事處我們觀光所自己現在有比較多的駐外辦事處譬如說東京啊不是很多的國家他可能要來的話他可能也會針對我們官方的網站先來瀏覽吧不一定是去外館吧"},{"start":498.557,"end":515.428,"text":"我們網站也通案在做更新那語言的部分是多餘我們這個建議非常好我們針對不一樣的語言那裡的旅客的特性對他們喜歡的旅遊內容是什麼我們就用那個內容來吸引他"},{"start":516.228,"end":533.317,"text":"所以應該針對各國有不一樣的語言以外你說日本的旅客他的喜好可能跟歐美的旅客可能就不一樣吧那如果說我用日文版進去看然後結果內容跟英文版進去也都是一樣那你這樣子有去區分不同的客群嗎"},{"start":534.557,"end":556.405,"text":"對啦 那跟委員報告就是我們有兩個部分一個部分是等於是基本款的我們這網站那既然更新升級那另外一個是外館符合當地的這個市場的那個部分我們是做分開那我們也在思考一個是不是可以跟一些所謂的這些數位行銷的部分做穿接"},{"start":557.145,"end":572.893,"text":"那這個部分可能效果會更好因為我們都是主題式的行銷所以這個部分我們也由我們的駐外辦事處那邊來做一些個案的這些行銷跟宣傳是 好"},{"start":573.513,"end":594.209,"text":"那我們知道這個觀光產業是整個國家的一個經濟發展其中一個很重要的一部分那吸引國外的旅客來台灣旅遊那當然我們在國內的一些觀光景點的一個提升也是很重要那我們看到就是說彰化縣以彰化縣來說雖然在網路上網友的評語說彰化好無聊可是我們看到"},{"start":600.914,"end":628.429,"text":"事實上這個有關旅遊人士的統計就是全國十大觀光景點那彰化縣有兩個景點是在十名內的所以彰化是真的有很多很不錯的一個觀光的一個熱門的一個景點那以整個全國熱門縣市來看的話彰化縣也是排名第七也是在十名內這是以這個整個國內的一個觀光景點來看"},{"start":629.87,"end":648.111,"text":"可是我們再來看一個數字就是說有關這個在這個國旅就是國內旅遊上啊這個彰化縣是熱門的可是在國際上啊它卻是後段班所以就是說看得出來可能這個彰化縣比較吸引不到國際旅客"},{"start":648.912,"end":672.648,"text":"按照這樣子的一個統計來看所以我們當然就是說對國旅的部分地方各地方政府要努力那中央的話就是有關這個國際旅客的一個旅遊應該就是我們觀光署中央要負比較大的一個責任吧所以這部分我不曉得觀光署有沒有什麼特別的一個努力"},{"start":674.929,"end":698.249,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是確實彰化縣是以國旅市場為主但是我們也希望中台灣用區域旅遊的方式來帶動還有就是彰化有幾個重要特色譬如說我們這個馬祖遶境的還有一個就是我們這邊有很多鐵道元素其實外國人也蠻喜歡來彰化所以這個我們會再加強來做行銷"},{"start":701.511,"end":727.627,"text":"是這部分可能要特別不同的這個特色去做行銷那另外剛剛署長在回答的時候有提到這個旅展的部分那我不曉得說這個旅展我們有邀請各地方縣市政府一起去參加嗎還是說只是我們觀光署自己都有如果是國際的話我們透過台灣觀光協會TPA他們來邀在國內的話他們都有區域我們有補助給工協會來舉辦"},{"start":730.889,"end":743.161,"text":"是 好 我想這個觀光產業的一個發展也是要中央地方一起攜手合作來努力這樣子才能夠創造最大的一個價值好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時1分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長還有周署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長、署長早安。今天委員會有幾個主題，其中一個就是針對如何推動國際旅客來臺觀光，所以我們先來看一下最近幾年國際旅客來臺人次所呈現的狀況，在109年高達一千三百多萬，之後因為有疫情的關係，在疫情之後我們的觀光人次也有漸漸在回升。在今年我們看到觀光署自己也訂了一個目標，就是要達到1,000萬人次，我想請問一下，今年這個部分我們能達標嗎？部長有信心嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們去年沒有做到的，在今年會想辦法做到，我知道去年原本設定的目標是1,200萬，那個目標更高，實際上，後來觀光署把目標修成1,000萬，那我們去年也沒有達到1,000萬，所以我們今年努力來達標。我們能夠做到、一定要做到的就是今年國際觀光來臺旅客的人次一定要比去年更多，我們一定要有成長，我們希望成長的幅度能夠拉大並到達1,000萬。"],["陳委員素月：是，從部長的回答可以聽出來部長確實有掌握，我要提醒你們，在去年年初署長信誓旦旦地對外宣示要達到1,200萬的國際觀光人次，可是兩度下修，最後的數字是786萬，真的差距甚大。所以我們希望這個數字不要隨便喊一喊，我們當然要衡量之後才去設定這個目標，然後在設定目標之後要努力去達成，所以我要提醒交通部跟觀光署，這個數字不是隨便喊一喊而已，我們一定要努力去落實。"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然。"],["陳委員素月：當然部長有說要努力來達成這個目標，可是我們也看到最近發生了一個震撼彈，就是美國總統川普宣布了關稅的問題，對整個國際的經濟市場都是有很重大的衝擊，那這個部分究竟對我們臺灣觀光業的發展有沒有什麼樣的影響？不曉得交通部有沒有即時的去做一個盤點，有沒有一個因應的措施？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實這件事才剛發生幾天，那這件事到底對於全球整個經濟、景氣跟經貿的影響到底有多大，我相信各國都還在評估當中，目前大家的數字都還沒出來，包含關稅實際的數字也還沒出來，所以交通部跟觀光署只能夠預做準備。至於是預做什麼樣的準備，就是我們會密切的觀察，因為到目前為止才幾天的時間，所以看不出來觀光客的變化，但是我們會密切的觀察整個觀光，不管是人次也好，或者是整個旅遊的狀況也好，或者是住房率也好，都會密切的觀察它的影響有多大。如果影響真的非常大，我們就會來做因應的措施，因應的措施包含我們會再加強宣傳或者是再加強活動。另外，業者一定也會受到一些衝擊，對業者應該要做什麼協助，我們目前正在盤點當中。"],["陳委員素月：對，我們就是要先提早做好一些準備、一些規劃方案，當然就是要先做好準備，這樣在發生問題的時候我們才能夠迅速的去做一個因應。有很多觀光業者也很擔心觀光產業是不是又要進入寒冬了，我覺得這個都是業者所擔心的。我們要吸引國際旅客來臺，觀光署針對這個部分在這幾年的預算裡面也都有一個項目，就是精準客源的開拓計畫，我們看到這個計畫從110年度一直到114年度的預算數字年年在增加，今年（114年）和去年（113年）相比，增加的比例可以說非常的高，關於這個部分，我們這樣的開拓計畫有特別新的執行內容嗎？預期的效益如何？"],["陳部長世凱：我是不是請署長回答一下？"],["陳委員素月：好。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告一下，我們為了拓展多元市場，所以我們在國際行銷的部分是增加2億，也謝謝委員的支持，關於這個部分，我們原則上就是希望增加雙印，對雙印我們現在跟外交部在談，就是可能會先在印度設辦事處，然後再來是印尼。那麼北美市場的成長是我們比較樂觀的，還有布局歐洲這件事情是我們更急迫要做的，所以我們現在是以西歐跟中歐為主，我們希望能夠慢慢往北，所以我們今年會在荷蘭阿姆斯特丹設臺灣觀光旅遊服務中心，我們這樣的布局也是需要透過預算的支持。還有米其林這個部分是一個品牌，所以我們今年也會增加兩個城市來推廣臺灣的美食文化，這個對歐美人士是非常有吸引力的，我特別跟委員報告。"],["陳委員素月：是，當然我們是支持這個預算，可是我們希望對這個預算你們在執行上執行率要好，然後要有效果，因為我不曉得你們的執行率如何，是不是可以先講一下？"],["周署長永暉：我們在國際行銷的執行率其實都在95%以上，這個部分也謝謝委員的支持，那麼我們有一些固定的，就是五路齊發，包括我們的推廣會，還有參加旅展，在旅展的部分我們也有增加了一些，譬如說在我們沒有設辦事處的地方，我們就拜託外交部，他們有外館，透過外館的方式來協助我們，那費用是由我們這邊來支應。"],["陳委員素月：好，當然就是要做精準的客源開拓，必須針對不同國家、不同民族的特性、喜好來規劃不同的宣傳。本席有去瀏覽了觀光署的網站，我們發現裡面都是一樣的內容，只是用不同的語言，你點進去以後，只是語言文字的轉換，可是內容都一樣，這樣子的內容對不同的國際客群有吸引力嗎？"],["周署長永暉：是，所以我們要不斷的擴充我們的database，但是我們的外館就不一樣，我們有16個外館，所以外館也有它的網站，那這個是我們自己本身的網站，我們就這個部分也有跟22個縣市政府做串接。"],["陳委員素月：外館是外交部嗎？"],["周署長永暉：對不起，是我們的駐外辦事處。"],["陳部長世凱：我們觀光署自己現在有比較多的駐外辦事處。"],["周署長永暉：譬如說在東京。"],["陳委員素月：可是很多國家的旅客要來的話，他可能也會先來瀏覽我們官方的網站，不一定是去外館吧！"],["周署長永暉：我們的網站也通案在做更新，那語言的部分是採多語，我們再來檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：委員的這個建議非常好，針對不一樣的語言，那裡的旅客的特性……"],["陳委員素月：應該要有不同的內容。"],["陳部長世凱：對，看他們喜歡的旅遊內容是什麼，我們就用那個內容來吸引他。"],["陳委員素月：對。"],["陳部長世凱：所以針對各國除了用不一樣的語言以外，應該內容也要不一樣。"],["陳委員素月：譬如說日本旅客的喜好可能跟歐美的旅客不一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：如果說我點日文版進去看，結果跟從英文版點進去所看到的內容也都一樣，那你這樣有去區分不同的客群嗎？"],["周署長永暉：對，跟委員報告，就是我們有兩個部分，一個部分等於是基本款的，我們的網站會儘量更新、升級，另外是外館符合當地市場的，那個部分我們是有分開。我們也在思考是不是可以跟所謂數位行銷的部分做串接，這個部分可能效果會更好，因為我們都是主題式的行銷，所以我們也由駐外辦事處那邊來做一些個案的行銷宣傳。"],["陳委員素月：我們知道觀光產業是整個國家經濟發展中很重要的一部分，除了吸引國外旅客來臺灣旅遊，當然，我們國內觀光景點的提升也很重要。以彰化縣來說，雖然在網路上網友的評語是彰化好無聊，可是我們看到有關旅遊人次的統計，全國十大觀光景點中，彰化縣有兩個景點是在十名內，所以彰化真的有很多很不錯的觀光熱門景點。以全國熱門縣市來看，彰化縣是排名第七，也是在十名內，這是以整個國內的觀光景點來看。我們再來看一個數字，彰化縣在國內旅遊是熱門的，可是在國際上卻是後段班，所以看得出來彰化縣可能比較吸引不到國際旅客，按照這樣的統計來看。對於國旅的部分，各地方政府要努力，有關國際旅客的旅遊，應該是觀光署、中央要負比較大的責任，所以在這部分我不曉得觀光署有沒有什麼特別的努力？"],["陳部長世凱：請署長。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告，彰化縣確實是以國旅市場為主，但是我們也希望中臺灣用區域旅遊的方式來帶動，彰化有幾個重要特色，譬如，媽祖遶境，還有就是這邊有很多鐵道元素，其實外國人也滿喜歡來彰化，所以這個我們會再加強來做行銷。"],["陳委員素月：這部分可能要特別以不同的特色去做行銷，另外，剛剛署長在回答的時候有提到旅展的部分，我不曉得這個旅展你們有邀請各地方縣市政府一起去參加嗎？還是只是觀光署自己辦而已？"],["周署長永暉：都有，如果是國際的話，我們透過台灣觀光協會（TVA）來邀請，在國內的話，他們有區域，我們都補助給公協會來舉辦。"],["陳委員素月：我想觀光產業的發展也是要中央、地方一起攜手合作來努力，這樣子才能夠創造最大的價值，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：因為登記發言的人還很多，麻煩黨團助理跟後面的委員講一下，發言儘量控制在我們的時間之內。","現在請林國成委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王育敏","陳冠廷","劉建國","王義川","林倩綺"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「如何推動國際旅客來台觀光」及「提升國際機場量能與服務品質\n及增闢國際線航點航班之作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附\n屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計46案；三、審查人民請願文書共12案","agenda_id":"1143601_00002"}}},{"id":"159980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcea0e4ed2ce862279479a8b3a3b5782fdd2eb6e21b32d8c6be3d1a61e1783180a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:42:25 - 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謝謝主席 那有請法務部部長 政部長 還有教育部張亮萬堅次長 謝謝好 次長 部長午安"},{"start":27.813,"end":57.035,"text":"好 我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度"},{"start":57.395,"end":71.976,"text":"我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色"},{"start":72.996,"end":99.235,"text":"那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥"},{"start":101.036,"end":114.536,"text":"所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧"},{"start":116.058,"end":133.064,"text":"好 那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好 這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上"},{"start":134.865,"end":146.513,"text":"這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強"},{"start":147.814,"end":176.648,"text":"對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上"},{"start":177.108,"end":202.897,"text":"只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的"},{"start":203.297,"end":221.392,"text":"但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的"},{"start":222.233,"end":248.721,"text":"好 謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法 教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師"},{"start":249.781,"end":271.581,"text":"那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律我們在報告裡面提到說中華民國教師專業標準指引"},{"start":273.303,"end":290.344,"text":"還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個"},{"start":291.905,"end":315.339,"text":"這個是不是不得違背這個倫理的行為我想這個呢就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪"},{"start":315.959,"end":329.006,"text":"可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論"},{"start":332.208,"end":360.611,"text":"雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明"},{"start":362.172,"end":373.38,"text":"這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師"},{"start":377.483,"end":404.739,"text":"他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師"},{"start":406.417,"end":428.973,"text":"也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好"},{"start":429.693,"end":456.232,"text":"部長假設我住在六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統"},{"start":457.092,"end":479.816,"text":"社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等"},{"start":480.196,"end":499.142,"text":"孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情"},{"start":499.902,"end":515.949,"text":"這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對"},{"start":517.049,"end":531.288,"text":"但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月"},{"start":532.574,"end":558.074,"text":"我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接 對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好 那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論"},{"start":561.477,"end":569.545,"text":"我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣"},{"start":582.717,"end":598.921,"text":"但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩"},{"start":602.802,"end":630.896,"text":"可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦"},{"start":632.279,"end":656.766,"text":"我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少權法 兒少權法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法"},{"start":657.947,"end":671.802,"text":"針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它這個能夠同步勾結讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子"},{"start":672.483,"end":699.131,"text":"市長這樣好不好我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個頭影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統"},{"start":700.271,"end":716.098,"text":"那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月"},{"start":722.441,"end":730.17,"text":"那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢"},{"start":732.931,"end":757.754,"text":"各位包括那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報就是加害人的這一部分可是沒有 我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報那個被害人對 但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以等一下 所以部長的意思要等到判刑要到司法 起訴到起訴 所以你認為好 下一張 所以你認為起訴就可以"},{"start":758.274,"end":773.153,"text":"起訴這個部分 再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦 那個部長我要求求你 拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我不知道現場在座最年輕的是誰"},{"start":774.349,"end":792.421,"text":"我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎"},{"start":793.542,"end":819.939,"text":"就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私隱一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部"},{"start":821.615,"end":824.263,"text":"不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完"},{"start":826.127,"end":853.204,"text":"兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道"},{"start":854.105,"end":867.014,"text":"我要講的是關鍵是再回到前一張我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一張這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的"},{"start":875.393,"end":902.247,"text":"你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護被害人那一步機制已經啟動了"},{"start":903.567,"end":916.761,"text":"我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上"},{"start":919.404,"end":946.121,"text":"我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式能夠"},{"start":946.741,"end":965.743,"text":"我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉"},{"start":967.521,"end":982.991,"text":"還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師"},{"start":984.472,"end":1013.346,"text":"我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳培宇要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳培宇被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查"},{"start":1015.157,"end":1019.929,"text":"好嗎?好,謝謝主席,不好意思,謝謝兩位,謝謝我們下一位請富坤旗委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時42分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：還有教育部張廖萬堅次長，謝謝。"],["主席：政次。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長、部長午安。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：我還是想要談一下言論自由，因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰，梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠，我認為臺灣一向對於軍公教有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業保障，所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情，我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度。"],["張廖次長萬堅：本來按照教師法跟相關的法令，對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的認同，學校都是非常重要的一個場所，所以老師正扮演這樣的角色。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果老師扮演這樣的角色，我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體，我的定義是這樣，敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論，表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠，再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信，然後你們有相關的行政調查，並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理，以上我的邏輯是對的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是的，並無不妥。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以並無不妥嘛。而且我們先不管臺北市政府處理的態度，我認為教育部要有自己的態度，我想問一下次長，目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務，對吧！"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：在教師法第四章裡面，根據所謂停聘、解聘、不續聘的要件，有談到老師在言論上的法律底線，這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果，你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談，我們希望不要針對區老師單一事件，我們認為在國家認同上這麼多年發展下來，每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度，但是對於目前臺灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下，教育部未來如何補強這一塊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們將來當然會加強實踐教師專業，另外就是言論自由如何界定，這個界線要有一個比較明確的規範。例如我剛才提到的，區老師在中共的官方媒體，也就是現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒發表他的言論、主張，基本上只要不違反我們的國安相關法令，他有他的言論自由，但是內容妥當與否？這是個問題。","他引起臺灣社會高度的不認同，因而產生批評，我覺得這也是區老師必須去面對的，並不是外界有所批評或者檢舉，政府去調查就是干涉言論自由，我想這是兩碼事啦！言論自由是被保障的，但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理？是否符合教育基本法的精神和教育中立？以及是否符合教師法的相關規定？我覺得言論內容是自由、被保障的，但是妥與不妥也是要被檢視的。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝次長提到所謂的專業倫理，事實上在臺灣的教育現場，一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則，我們有非常多法，不管是教師法、教育人員任用條例，除了保障老師們的權利，同時也規範老師的義務，但是專業倫理這件事情，在臺灣的教育現場一直是缺乏的。","如果回到這一次提到的國家認同，還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情，或許未來會有更多這樣的狀況，本席認為區老師絕對不會是最後一位。站在保護國安、奠定國家認同的基礎上，本席覺得未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情。次長是不是可以簡單回復一下？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們尊重立法院的意見。事實上目前除了剛才我提到的教師自主、自律，我們在報告裡面也有提到中華民國教師專業標準指引，還有全國教師會訂定的全國教師自律公約，裡面都有提到行政中立、專業責任的問題。例如在專業表現的指標上，他不得利用職權教導或要求學生支持特定政黨或候選人，也不能支持特定的意識形態，也不得違背教師倫理的行為，我想這就是一個比較像倫理性的規範。所以剛才我一直強調，區老師有他的言論自由，但是他的言論內容引起批評時，他就必須去面對這樣的言論是否適合。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席相信不管是所謂的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以後來北一女也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是本席認為，其實這是對國家認同、國家忠誠的問題，以及配合統戰這件事情，在一般的教育現場，現行的教職員認知可能都有普遍的差異，這些後續我們也要再加強。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：至於教師倫理準則，我們還是希望有機會和你們討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：雖然剛剛次長已經說了，有所謂的教育人員專業指引，包含中立的部分，但本席認為現場的普遍認知絕對有很大的落差，好嗎？這個部分就先說到這裡，我們之後會繼續往下追蹤。請兩位留步，我們今天要來司法委員會談教育這件事情，因為和法務部有關。在創意私房這個案子裡面，我們辦公室注意到了，有一個行為人的身分非常特別，本席先向兩位說明一下，這是一位老師。","根據檢方的起訴書，有一位陳姓男子從民國104年起，在臺北市多家補習班任教，並且從108年開始，在某一個國小擔任代課老師，他在110年8月到112年7月之間，多次邀約國小學生爬山，爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡，趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片，當然後續做了很多數位犯罪，所以才會出現在這次的調查當中。我們在判決書裡面有看到相關案例，這是真實案例，不是本席捏造的。","本席要再強調一次，他是現行的學校代課老師，也就是說，他在被查獲之前，沒有人知道他對孩子們下手做這件事情。等到創意私房案爆發了，檢察官發現這個加害人，所以檢察官就開始調查，對嗎？從調查到起訴，通常平均值是多久？部長，假設是六個月，好不好？從開始調查到起訴假設是六個月，在這六個月當中，這個人會不會繼續在學校教書？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會通報，要依據兒少性剝削防制條例……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你要確定喔！你確定法務部會通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是由檢察官通報。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你說對了，你們會通報社政系統。根據兒少法第四十九條，根據兒少性剝削防制條例，法務部的檢調單位一旦查悉，確實要通報社政系統，但是這個通報系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制。什麼叫被害人保護？如果他需要相關的心理輔導、社會資源救助，或者是他的原生家庭出現任何困難、問題，導致有這樣的狀況等等，孩子因為這個事情受到傷害，社政系統就會啟動保護機制，我們通報的原因是這個，而且也不會回頭影響檢察官正在進行的調查。","但我們同時也要回到教育部的部分，在此時此刻，社政系統知道了，但教育部、教育系統毫不知情，這是現行的困境。本席要說的是，過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要，針對現行的教職人員，我們要定期進六個系統去查，對不對？但是過往也出現過案例，就是很多縣市政府、學校並不會定期去查。本席剛剛為什麼問法務部長？在這個調查過程當中，假設平均值是六個月好了，從知悉到起訴，假設抓最短六個月，我們給檢察官足夠的時間調查，但是在這六個月當中，學校系統、教育部毫不知情。","本席不會說這是法務部的錯，也不會說這是檢察系統的錯，本席會說因為過去沒有這個型態的犯罪，導致過往不知道，原來法務系統也要和教育系統做這樣的介接，對嗎？因為它是新型態的犯罪。回過頭來看，我們可以做什麼事情？我們現在想要積極建議，而且本席認為兩個部會必須主動開啟討論，我們希望司法系統一旦查悉或者起訴觸犯兒少性剝削條例的行為人時，要通報教育系統，讓教育系統去做勾稽，並開啟行政調查。","在檢察官調查期間，我們並不是要讓這個人失業，但是本席認為應該要讓這個人離開小孩。什麼叫離開小孩？本席知道教育系統現在最常做的，就是把這個人派去教育局，這樣他就碰不到小孩了，對不對？但是他依然要配合司法調查，對嗎？或者是把他調成學校的行政職，但這邊本席要打一個問號，因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩。一旦教育系統知道這件事情就必須開啟行政調查，但現在可怕的是，檢調單位沒有法源依據，沒有義務向教育系統通報。","你們確實向社政系統做了通報，而且一直以來都做的很好，但教育端怎麼辦？以本席剛剛提到的陳老師案例，他就是繼續在學校當代課老師，繼續邀請學生去爬山，然後去他家洗澡、偷拍照。我們該怎麼辦？"],["張廖次長萬堅：陳委員，你提的那個部分，檢察系統是依照兒少權法第四十九條。"],["陳委員培瑜：他只會通報社政系統。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。我們本來認為社政和教育行政同樣都是政府單位，應該是要通報的。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，不會的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果是因為法令缺漏，造成這個部分有缺失，我們也會啟動相關的修法，包括教師法，這是針對全國教師的部分，還有幼照法，這是學前教育的部分。如果有必要修法，我們會去研議讓它能夠同步勾稽，讓這個犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，這樣好不好？本席認為修法真的太慢了。主席，不好意思，本席超過一點點時間，因為現在這個問題真的很難解。本席認為修法太慢了，所以本席剛剛的建議是，我們可不可以快速建立一個不會增加檢察官辦案壓力，也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的通報系統，讓檢察官可以在第一時間通報，本席認為一旦查獲，除了告知社政系統之外，也要同步告知教育系統。","教育部也要趕快建立一個窗口，或是趕快設計一個平台，行政調查的部分可以讓學校掌握，由教育部透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處，地方教育局處不能推脫，他們要趕快發給學校，趕快讓這個人離開現場，因為公文來來回回搞不好會超過一個月。如果要再修法，本席覺得太難了，就本席的認知，其實做這樣的行政行為就可以了。部長和次長，你們覺得呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在案件偵查中，我們沒辦法通報加害人這個部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們那個系統是通報被害人，但是加害人這邊，因為還沒有確認他有這個行為，所以我們是在……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下。所以部長的意思是要等到判刑，要到司法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：起訴。"],["陳委員培瑜：你認為起訴就可以通知教育系統？"],["鄭部長銘謙：起訴之後。我們再來研議看看有沒有辦法通報。"],["陳委員培瑜：不用研議啦！部長，求求你，拜託！因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經離我們這個世代的人越來越遠，在座最年輕的是誰？本席現在已經快要50歲，我們的小孩在網路上漫遊，他不是犯罪的人，不是加害人，也不是被害人，可是孩子們現在在網路上會接觸到各式各樣的拐騙行為，這樣就很可能讓他們淪為被害人，但學校系統毫不知情。這件事情真的還要再研議嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：研議那個聯繫的機制。我們贊同委員的意見，起訴之後我們就可以通報，我們也會再研議如何和教育單位做一個……"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有機會在一個月內，由我們辦公室邀請法務部和教育部一起開會討論這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：一個月內，我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們，和你們一起討論。等一下，你的幕僚好像要和你說什麼。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法規的主管機關是衛福部。"],["陳委員培瑜：不是的。等一下，主席，本席真的對不起你，但請你讓本席說完。兒少法第四十九條，或者是兒少性剝削防制條例，如果是保護被害人的機制，當然是衛福部主管。可是你不要忘了本席剛剛說的那個案例，他就是不適任老師，可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是不適任老師，因為案件還在查獲的階段，甚至還不到可以起訴，可能只有他身邊的人知道這個人是老師，他對小孩做了這個事情。還有那個檢察官知道，以及陪同檢察官一起辦案的警察知道，然後就沒有人知道。","本席要說的關鍵是，本席真的不應該這麼激動，但本席要說的是，在那個判決書裡面，我們看到的就是這樣的樣態，他的犯罪期間長達多久？從110年到112年連續兩年，如果要等你們再研議，或是你們要有法源依據，現在沒有辦法做任何行政措施，難道我們要放任小孩處於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎？","本席要說的是沒有人知道！檢察官不能打電話通知任何的縣市教育局處，現在本席手上就有一個案例，這部分你們要注意。因為他不能做這個事情！你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官，不知道下一步該怎麼辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是偵查不公開的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道，所以他不能做這個事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以現在保護被害人的機制已經啟動了。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，你一定懂本席的意思。那樣的不適任老師，他是徹徹底底不適任吧？而且更可怕的是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不適任是行政處分啦！當然，法務部是因為偵查不公開的規定。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席懂，也完全理解。"],["張廖次長萬堅：在行政通報上，我們可以做非處分的一些行政調查，你說的是這個部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，本席說的就是這個部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：針對這個部分，我們和法務部會後討論有沒有辦法建立一個通報機制。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，本席完全尊重偵查不公開。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們不是去確認這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪。但事實上有關不適任教師的部分，他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而定，而是以他的行為與否而定。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道。但是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果因為他的行為已經造成有被害人，就通報這件事情，我們會請檢察官協助，看看有沒有什麼方式能夠……"],["陳委員培瑜：本席希望不要再增加工作給檢察官。本席認為我們真的要認真的坐下來討論，我們辦公室很願意和兩個部會坐下來討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以啦！我們來討論看看。"],["陳委員培瑜：站在保護兒少的立場，本席當然知道衛福部已經有在做，可是在教育系統，本席要再次強調，這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道，甚至是他被起訴囉……"],["張廖次長萬堅：還沒有判刑確定前都不知道。"],["陳委員培瑜：還沒有判刑確定以前，教育系統不會知道。本席要再說一次，還沒有被判刑確定以前，教育系統不會知道。本席手上有一張紙，主席，本席真的對不起你，但是請讓本席說完。現在所有現職的老師，如果要查他有沒有不適任的問題，其實有非常多系統可以查。就像剛被聘任的人會被調查，例如陳培瑜到某個地方interview，確定可以任職之後就會先調查，但剛進去的時候可能沒有問題。另外一個就是要做定期調查，但現在很多縣市政府並沒有好好做定期調查，所以陳培瑜被請進去教書之後，可能中間的犯罪行為不會被任何人知道，只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查。謝謝主席，不好意思。謝謝兩位，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"159979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce6013e7ab89bcb4aba71339fff88aef012eb6e21b32d8c6be51013c85a2468dcd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:47:35 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人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T11:47:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T11:58:00+08:00","duration":625,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.898468750000003,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.707843750000002,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.63596875,"end":88.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.01284375,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.11721875,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.01909375000001,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.41534375,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.18284375,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.90784375000001,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.80596875,"end":119.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.00409375000001,"end":119.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.61971875,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.67034375,"end":132.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.45471875000001,"end":123.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.38596875000002,"end":138.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.95096875000002,"end":134.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.27096875,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.52409375000002,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.05534375000002,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.84409375,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.12659375,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.57784375,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.66971875000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.11596875,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.34534375,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.71221875,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.33159375000002,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.81159375000001,"end":190.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.82409375,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.47284375,"end":206.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.27284375000002,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.63909375000003,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.05659375000002,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.26659375000003,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.75846875,"end":286.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.58971875000003,"end":292.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.40721875,"end":318.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.16409375,"end":309.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.57596875,"end":323.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.50784375,"end":327.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.65471875000003,"end":334.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.18534375,"end":338.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.39159375,"end":339.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.11721875,"end":357.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.59784375000004,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.40534375000004,"end":362.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.01221875000005,"end":382.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.60409375,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.66659375,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.22534375000004,"end":442.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.25909375000003,"end":403.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.46159375,"end":404.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.30034375,"end":411.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.54034375000003,"end":412.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.55659375000005,"end":446.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.42096875000004,"end":451.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.21784375000004,"end":451.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.94346875,"end":469.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.51034375,"end":478.5722187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我們邀請體育署署長好 有請鄭署長"},{"start":16.969,"end":33.265,"text":"蘇章早安我想我先快快的問一下有關於運財條例的部分就是說其實剛剛前面的仲嘉賓委員講得非常清楚就是說我們要如何提高現有的獎金支出率來增加更多的誘因避免進入賭牌這也是許多不管是運財公會所希望的一個方向"},{"start":34.466,"end":50.103,"text":"我想剛剛因為其實說會去研究如何的去調整我們現在的一些行政支出我們還是要必須要去確保我們要給運發的這個基金不能夠受影響那如果這有相關的研究報告我希望也可以提供給我們辦公室那這下一個問題呢我想我們就針對這個因為現在運採雖然已經有"},{"start":54.928,"end":71.418,"text":"總類逐年增加但是大多數還是以國外賽事為主那國內大概也只有中華職棒可是其他賽事如果是像GPBL PLG也都還沒有相關的賽事來開盤那如果民眾想要針對這些賽事來投注的時候勢必就可以看到這網路上面非常容易就可以找到一些地下賭盤的一個資訊"},{"start":73.92,"end":88.593,"text":"所以我想了解就是說因為這個可能會讓民眾在不管是做這個非法的投資也好那他可能也會進入一個詐騙的範疇之內所以我們到底有沒有可能來加開更多屬於我們的國內的賽事呢"},{"start":89.042,"end":112.324,"text":"報告委員,其實這部分我們持續跟台灣運財一直在研究,那他們給我的回覆是說,因為這兩個TPPL都是一個新的,所以數據還不夠,可能需要一年的時間,至少讓他run一季,run完之後他才有足夠的資訊來進行。所以這樣子聽起來就是明年應該可以的,是嗎?有機會,但是說實在我不是專家,他們有一個專業專人在做數據的分析,所以這部分我會持續要求他們。"},{"start":113.144,"end":132.214,"text":"這部分大概什麼時候我們可以知道他們分析的結果呢因為地下土盤還是要一年之後所以應該是要明年所以預估他們就是明年的時候我們才會有一些相關的研究報告是嗎那除了這個除了這個籃球賽事之外那其他的一些國內型的賽事一樣就是要穩定的賽事數據那這部分要去做評估當然他們最怕的是愛國盤"},{"start":138.577,"end":157.19,"text":"就是說我們12強中華隊對誰那大家都壓中華隊那他們要嘛就是大贏不然就慘輸所以他們的數據分析有他們的專業那這部分我還是要適度的尊重他們的數據分析的專業我還是會持續拜託他們就是還是要針對有興趣的國內有興趣的投資標的要能夠盡量開盤"},{"start":159.452,"end":181.662,"text":"接下来我还是要问一下有关于女主我想大家都问得非常多我也听了非常多署长的解释跟说明但我想先问第一个问题就是署长过去也担任过主席的秘书长你也知道这是一个非常重要的工作但是主席的秘书长多久没有人了?从我之后就没有了对,从2023之后就再也没有人了那在过程之中体育署怎么样协助他们呢?"},{"start":183.186,"end":206.659,"text":"其實我們當然持續要求他們去尋找但是他們就是找不到有人敢去接這個秘書長那我們是不是可以去預判接下來足協要舉辦的相當多的賽事還是會出去出狀況的確委員的疑慮是有存在的所以我們現在接下來我們當然輔導他針對在他們的賽事前的準備的檢核這一塊我們會加強力道去監督啦"},{"start":207.315,"end":225.115,"text":"好因為我想這一次最大的問題是他9月去年9月才去做一些場地的租借跟協調的部分所以他基本上也做不太到什麼場地這是第一個問題那這個行政作業現在就因為缺乏秘書長帶領整個團隊去做所以這會造成第一個不要說這個啦這個一直以來"},{"start":225.896,"end":250.488,"text":"出了非常非常多的包啦我覺得體育署可能要更積極的來去協助他們就例如他有一些相關賽事而且去請領我們的預算補助的時候呢我們應該要更早之前就要去監督了這個部分可以嗎報告委員我們其實有一個補助辦法SOP的整個的審查機制啦不過的確草皮真的算是單向協會的專業啦那部分我們的確比較不會"},{"start":251.075,"end":257.601,"text":"真的一直去頂啦但是基於這次的原因我們接下來會對竹鞋這一塊會做比較強的力度的一個進度"},{"start":259.06,"end":283.511,"text":"因為我想 因為據我所知 足協提供給紐西蘭女主的照片是一個形象照啦 與實際上來台的狀況落差非常非常的大所以這個在協助他們未來 如果要給予任何補助的話我覺得這都要特別的注意 它是不是提供真實的現場給對方再來就是說 3月31號其實體育署就已經知道沒有場地可以使用但是當時有沒有積極的去協調"},{"start":284.691,"end":286.453,"text":"其他的A級場地剛好都已經有人在使用了就沒有辦法"},{"start":292.455,"end":318.1,"text":"好 了解那我想因為接下來這個學童杯這禮拜又是在男子足球場我自己其實我去了好幾次男子足球場我覺得他們其實是蠻認真在維護的所以我覺得這件事情應該不是讓男子足球場來杯這個鍋應該真正要杯這個鍋的應該還是要回到足協自己有沒有及早去協調那再來就是說因為這個沒有及早去協調也造成了我們其實"},{"start":319.66,"end":333.641,"text":"第一個是解鎖協調的問題啦第二個問題我其實非常疑惑齁其實好像足協能夠協調的場地只有男子足球場欸其他的場地他是沒有辦法協調是他沒有能力協調還是說他都太晚去協調"},{"start":335.482,"end":357.602,"text":"包委員其實像照片這個外環是台中的賽事他們後來有移到西屯去不過我覺得國內目前我們的足球場地隨著我們基層的足球蓬勃發展的確在場地方面的確是不太夠所以這部分我還是持續在協調各個縣市希望縣市首長可以把土地能夠挪出來讓我們建更多的足球場地"},{"start":358.444,"end":381.827,"text":"好 我覺得場地是一個問題啦但是足協還是要持續的來監督那再來就是說這也是跟足協有關係啦因為昨天他公布了這個消息就是勝利聯賽要跟足協的青年青年聯賽來正式合併嘛那接下來如果我們再去勝利聯賽是一個蠻不錯的聯賽過去的風評都很好現在跟足協合辦的時候其實坦白說我非常擔心我非常擔心場地會出包"},{"start":383.269,"end":403.045,"text":"如果主席的這個作業系統的話,所以這個麻煩請署長一定要強力的要求,好不好?法務委員,據我所知啦,我想他們的結合主要也是在場地的部分有一個合作,因為我們現在就講,場地真的不是太不太夠,所以他們的合作是,我想這個方向是有它原因在,不過勝利連山他們主要負責還是在U14以下啦,"},{"start":403.765,"end":430.569,"text":"對 是這是因為足協的協調能力跟許多的應變能力對許多來生不要說女主好了少年盃光報名也就粗暴所以這個我希望真是要強力的來執行跟監督我們的足協的這些相關的問題因為它畢竟還是我們足球基層運動一個蠻重要的一個主辦單位那再來另外一個就是說國小世界盃要停辦剛剛我也聽了組長的一些說明但是我還是要講就是"},{"start":431.269,"end":442.15,"text":"足球世界盃的参与对数其实是远高于少年盃跟学童盃它是每一年都在增加的所以这个赛事其实还是非常非常重要第二个就是说"},{"start":443.578,"end":464.17,"text":"他這個賽事我有聽到說要改成八人制我有聽說要從五人制變成八人制這個是不是可以署長跟我做個說明一下目前因為預算的因素目前我們還沒有辦法去附辦所以也沒有所謂的競賽規程這方面都其實都沒有辦法所以我們現在都是在討論的階段而已那我這邊當然"},{"start":465.271,"end":482.549,"text":"不希望任何的賽事因此就沒有了所以我們這邊持續的想辦法去爭取預算那這樣聽起來就是預算的影響因為這一次三檢預算的關係動山的部分造成了這個世界盃沒有辦法舉辦那還有沒有相關的賽事受影響呢主要是公務預算的部分是這個賽事受比較大的影響"},{"start":483.829,"end":511.395,"text":"對那其他的聯賽的部分我們盡量保持盡量維持但是我們就是必須要去把一些給學校的補助啦等等去做一個刪減這個是不得已的做法所以這個是目前沒有就是未來如果要復辦的話是沒有打算走八人制嗎這個我想確認一下這個部分我們還是要跟專業的這些基層的訓練基層的這些賽事主辦方去多討論因為這部分說實在我真的不是專業的部分那我們還是會廣大建言"},{"start":511.715,"end":535.155,"text":"那委員如果說希望家長也能夠進來一起討論這部分我們會要求同仁一起把它納入好 我想我還是要講到一個非常重要的重點就是說因為世界盃其實對孩子來說還是非常重要因為雖然有很多的一些俱樂盃剛剛講的少年盃或是學童盃其實是有很多所謂中產階級的家庭他們其實是可以去支付可以去參加而是對於一些偏鄉來說可能世界盃是他們比較有辦法因為有補助辦法"},{"start":536.596,"end":552.374,"text":"所以他比較有機會可以去參加的比賽現在你把他停辦了就等於是這些偏鄉的學校他要怎麼去參加這樣子的一個比賽呢可能就失去了跟全國競技的機會所以我這個部分我還是希望是不是有辦法教育部也可以一起來協助讓我們世界盃可以持續的來舉辦"},{"start":554.176,"end":568.248,"text":"因為這對偏鄉來說是一個非常重要的第二個部分如果要往八人次的話我覺得場地會是一個問題因為我們總不能讓小孩子因為各縣市有八人次的場地非常非常的少我們總不能讓他第一次比賽的時候就是第一次練習的機會這是絕對不可以的"},{"start":570.129,"end":587.852,"text":"所以這個地方我希望就是要好好的審慎的思考第二個還有要往八人制發展的時候我覺得偏鄉以及女族來說學生數非常少要湊到八個人尤其是女生要湊到八年其實也是非常的不容易所以這個可能也是要去思考跟評估的一個重點那最後我還是要講就是"},{"start":589.398,"end":606.309,"text":"這件事情的確會影響到一些偏鄉的孩子所以才是希望部長一起來支持讓我們的世界盃可以持續的來舉辦但是會後我也會再做一個問題就是過去有一些學校他們為了要拿補助案所以是用籃球隊或是棒球隊的學生"},{"start":607.75,"end":613.879,"text":"為了拿這個補助所以他們不是真正的組成了足球隊所以這個會後我也會跟體育署這邊來再繼續討論這個議題因為我們還是要確保世界盃是真的能夠讓基層的足球可以持續的生耕好嗎 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時47分）謝謝主席，有請體育署署長。"],["主席：有請鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：署長早安。我先快快地問一下有關於運彩條例的部分，剛剛前面的鍾佳濱委員也講得非常清楚，要如何提高現有的獎金支出率來增加更多的誘因，避免進入賭盤嘛！這也是運彩公會所希望的方向。剛剛有說會去研究如何調整現在的行政支出，因為我們必須要去確保運發基金不能夠受影響，如果這有相關的研究報告，我希望也可以提供給我們辦公室。","下一個問題，針對現在運彩的種類雖然已經有逐年增加，但是大多數還是以國外賽事為主，國內大概只有中華職棒，可是其他賽事像是TPBL、PLG，都還沒有相關的賽事來開盤，如果民眾想要針對這些賽事來投注的時候，勢必在網路上面就可以非常容易找到一些地下賭盤的資訊，所以我想瞭解，因為這個可能會讓民眾做非法的投資，他可能也會進入詐騙的範疇之內，所以我們到底有沒有可能來加開更多屬於國內的賽事呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：其實這部分我們持續跟台灣運彩在研究，他們給我的回復是說，因為TPBL跟那個……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道，他們資訊不夠嘛！是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：都是新的，所以數據還不夠，可能需要一年的時間，至少讓它run一季，run完之後它才有足夠的資訊來進行。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這樣子聽起來，明年應該可以了，是嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：有機會，但是說實在，我不是這方面的專家，他們有專人在做數據的分析，所以這部分我會持續要求他們。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候可以知道他們分析的結果？因為地下賭盤還是……"],["鄭署長世忠：就是要一年之後，所以應該是要一年。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以預估呢？預估他們……"],["鄭署長世忠：明年才會有……"],["張委員雅琳：明年的時候我們才會有一些相關的研究報告，是嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：除了籃球賽事之外，其他的國內型賽事有沒有可能會去做？"],["鄭署長世忠：一樣是要穩定的賽事數據，從這方面去做評估，當然他們最怕的是愛國盤，比方說我們12強中華隊對誰，那大家都壓中華隊，他們要嘛就是大贏，不然就慘輸，所以他們的數據分析有他們的專業啦！這部分我還是要適度地尊重他們數據分析的專業，但是我還是會持續拜託他們，針對國人有興趣的投注標的要能夠儘量開盤。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。接下來我還是要問一下有關於女足，我想大家都問了非常非常多，我也聽了非常多署長的解釋跟說明，但我想先問第一個問題，署長過去擔任過足協的秘書長嘛！你也知道這是一個非常非常重要的工作，但是足協秘書長多久沒有人了？"],["鄭署長世忠：從我之後就沒有了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，從2023之後就再也沒有人了，那這個過程之中，體育署怎麼樣協助他們呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們當然持續要求他們去尋找，但是他們就是找不到人敢去接秘書長。"],["張委員雅琳：那我們是不是可以去預判，接下來足協要舉辦相當多的賽事還是會持續出狀況？"],["鄭署長世忠：的確，委員的疑慮是存在的，接下來我們當然會輔導它，針對他們賽事前的準備，在檢核這一塊我們會加強力道去監督。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為這一次最大的問題是它去年9月才去做一些場地的租借與協調，所以基本上也租不太到什麼場地，這是第一個問題，這個行政作業現在就是因為缺乏秘書長帶領整個團隊去做，不要說這個啦！一直以來出了非常非常多的包啦！我覺得體育署可能要更積極地去協助他們，例如它有一些相關賽事而且去請領預算補助的時候，你們應該要更早之前就去監督了，這個部分可以嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們其實有一個補助辦法，SOP的審查機制，不過草皮真的算是單項協會的專業，那一部分我們比較不會真的一直去盯，但是基於這一次的事件，我們接下來會對足協這一塊做比較強力度的監督。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為據我所知，足協提供給紐西蘭女足的照片是形象照，與實際來臺的狀況落差非常非常大，所以未來如果要給予任何補助來協助他們的話，我覺得這都要特別的注意，它是不是提供真實的現場狀況給對方。","再來，3月31日其實體育署就已經知道沒有場地可以使用，但是當時有沒有積極地去協調其他的場地來協助足協呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：其他的A級場地剛好都已經有人在使用了，就沒有辦法。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。因為接下來學童盃這禮拜又是在楠梓足球場，其實我去了好幾次楠梓足球場，我覺得他們其實是滿認真在維護的，所以這件事情應該不是讓楠梓足球場來揹這個鍋。"],["鄭署長世忠：不會。"],["張委員雅琳：真正要揹這個鍋的，應該還是要回到足協啦！自己有沒有及早去協調，第一個是及早協調的問題。第二個問題，我其實非常疑惑，好像足協能夠協調的場地只有楠梓足球場欸！其他的場地它是不是沒有辦法協調？是它沒有能力協調，還是它都太晚去協調？"],["鄭署長世忠：其實像這個照片，我想是臺中的賽事啦！"],["張委員雅琳：少年盃，對。"],["鄭署長世忠：他們後來有移到西屯去。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["鄭署長世忠：不過我覺得國內目前的足球場地，隨著我們基層的足球蓬勃發展，在場地方面的確是不太夠，所以這部分我還是持續在協調各個縣市，希望縣市首長可以把土地挪出來，讓我們建更多的足球場地。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我覺得場地是一個問題，但是足協還是要持續地來監督。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，這也是跟足協有關係，昨天它公布了這個消息，就是勝利聯賽要跟足協的青年聯賽正式合併，因為勝利聯賽是一個滿不錯的聯賽，過去的風評都很好，現在跟足協合辦，坦白說我非常擔心，我非常擔心場地會出包，如果以足協這個作業系統的話，所以麻煩請署長一定要強力地要求，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：據我所知，他們的結合主要也是在場地的部分有一個合作，因為我們現在就講場地真的不太夠，所以他們的合作方向是有它的原因在，不過勝利聯賽他們主要負責的還是在U14以下。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是因為足協的協調能力跟應變能力對許多人來說，不要說女足好了……"],["鄭署長世忠：瞭解，我會再深入地瞭解他們的……"],["張委員雅琳：少年盃光報名也出包，所以我希望真的是要強力地來執行跟監督足協這些相關的問題，因為它畢竟還是我們足球基層運動一個滿重要的主辦單位。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：另外一個，國小世界盃要停辦，我剛剛也聽了署長的一些說明，但是我還是要講，足球世界盃的參與隊數是遠高於少年盃跟學童盃，它是每一年都在增加的，所以這個賽事其實是非常非常重要。","第二個，它這個賽事我有聽到說要改成8人制欸！我有聽說要從5人制變成8人制，署長是不是可以跟我做個說明？"],["鄭署長世忠：因為預算的因素，目前我們還沒有辦法去復辦，所以也沒有所謂的競賽規程，這方面其實都沒有辦法，我們現在都是在討論的階段而已。我這邊當然不希望任何賽事因此就沒有了，所以我們會持續地想辦法去爭取預算。"],["張委員雅琳：這樣聽起來就是預算的影響，因為這一次刪減預算的關係……"],["鄭署長世忠：通刪的部分。"],["張委員雅琳：凍刪的部分造成世界盃沒有辦法舉辦，還有沒有相關的賽事受影響呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：公務預算的部分，這個賽事是受比較大的影響。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以其他的賽事……"],["鄭署長世忠：其他聯賽的部分，我們儘量保持、儘量維持，但是我們必須把一些給學校的補助等等去做一個刪減，這個是不得已的做法。"],["張委員雅琳：所以未來如果要復辦的話，是沒有打算走8人制嗎？這個我想確認一下。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們還是要跟基層這些專業的賽事主辦方去多討論，因為這部分說實在，我真的不是專業，不過我們還是會廣納建言，委員如果希望家長也能夠進來一起討論，這部分我們會要求同仁一起納入。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我還是要講到一個非常重要的重點，就是世界盃對孩子來說還是非常重要，因為雖然有很多剛剛講的少年盃、學童盃，有很多中產階級的家庭他們可以支付，可以去參加，可是對於一些偏鄉來說，可能世界盃是他們比較有辦法參加的，因為有補助辦法，所以是他們比較有機會可以去參加的比賽，現在你把它停辦了，這些偏鄉的學校要怎麼去參加這樣子的比賽呢？可能就失去了跟全國競技的機會，所以我還是希望教育部可以一起來協助，是不是有辦法讓世界盃可以持續來舉辦？因為這對偏鄉來說是非常重要的。","第二個部分，如果要往8人制的話，我覺得場地會是一個問題，因為各縣市有8人制場地的非常非常地少，我們總不能讓小孩子第一次比賽的時候就是第一次練習的機會，這是絕對不可以的，所以這個地方我希望要好好地審慎思考。還有，要往8人制發展的時候，我覺得對偏鄉以及女足來說，學生數非常少，要湊到8個人，尤其是女生，要湊到8人其實也是非常不容易，所以這個可能也是要去思考跟評估的一個重點。","最後我還是要講，這件事情的確會影響到一些偏鄉的孩子，所以還是希望部長一起來支持，讓我們的世界盃可以持續來舉辦。會後我也會再追一個問題，就是過去有一些學校為了要拿補助案，他們是用籃球隊或是棒球隊的學生，所以他們不是真正組成了足球隊，會後我會跟體育署這邊再繼續討論這個議題，因為我們還是要確保世界盃是真的能夠讓基層的足球可以持續地深耕，好嗎？謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，署長請回。","接下來請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce9a01935b71319d0deafc78fb10225fff2eb6e21b32d8c6bec39fa9b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謝謝主席 我請我們蔡局長好 辛苦了 局長請教一下其實現在我們重中之重就是針對美國的關稅戰特別是雖然這是全球的問題但是因為終究對台灣來講我們是一個外銷"},{"start":26.295,"end":41.971,"text":"為主要的導向的一個國家而且呢說實在我們真的也經不起這樣的一個這麼高的關稅所以我今天有注意到早上這個我們局長也有特別提到就說我們現在確實已經會派"},{"start":44.794,"end":63.832,"text":"這個特使團然後去跟美方做交涉那但是我們知道按照我們過去的經驗其實經濟部在今年初就有派過一個代表團但是呢非常可惜我想局長也很清楚其實我們並沒有見到什麼主要的key man所以呢我想請問一下"},{"start":66.59,"end":91.073,"text":"我們這一次的對美的交涉例如說我們過去比如說在APEC像張忠謀先生歷次都擔任我們這個總統的特使去參加國際性的會議所以他跟外國很多的領袖都是好朋友更不要說台積電在川普總統裡面也認為是一個信譽及卓著非常良好的公司"},{"start":91.733,"end":114.347,"text":"所以今天我們有提到就是我們的副總召有提到建議是不是能夠敦請張忠謀先生在這一次台灣這樣的一個危機中可不可以來擔任我們的一個特使去跟對美交涉所以我不曉得局長你對這樣的看法你覺得如何"},{"start":115.024,"end":127.191,"text":"尊重委員的一些意見喔那也可以理解委員背後的問題意識當然是擔心說台灣在這一波的關稅的衝擊之下對我們的產業會產生一些影響那所以委員的這些建議我們尊重"},{"start":127.979,"end":146.184,"text":"因為我們現在知道有好幾十個國家將近百個國家都在排隊跟美國想要交涉但是我想我們如果今天是派出張忠謀先生至少我想我們可以應該可以排的順序應該比較前面一點所以局長你同不同意我的"},{"start":146.804,"end":168.999,"text":"尊重委員的分析好那局長另外一個很重要的事情你們的報告也說有關於這個共諜案那麼最近大家高度的關心那麼過去五年起訴的159人裡面有六成都是現金人或者是退役的軍人但是最近我們出現了就是發現"},{"start":170.2,"end":193.169,"text":"在不管是在立法院裡面立法院委員的助理或者是總統府的資議或者是議員的助理或者是像民進黨民主學院裡面的他們的主任前副主任相繼的發生就是涉入共諜案這個當然也引起社會很大的震撼那麼"},{"start":195.41,"end":215.218,"text":"局長我想請問一下就你所了解現在有關於相關的共諜案涉嫌他滲入在執政黨或者是在立法院執政黨的立委或者議員或者是相關機構裡面這樣的案情到底嚴不嚴重"},{"start":216.981,"end":234.59,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為早上我也跟媒體朋友在報告共諜案它因為涉及到背叛國家傷害國家利益所以就我們國安情報機關來講只要有相關的線索的話我們一定會全力的來查查全力的來偵辦那也不會分任何的黨派也不管它是什麼樣的職務"},{"start":235.23,"end":264.161,"text":"所以只要有這樣的個案的話我們就依照相關的事證來收集情訊那有必要就來提供給檢調單位來做偵辦局長這個事件為什麼也引起高度的關注譬如說你當過前立法院院長的助理因為你所接觸的資料當然又不一樣那個等級證都不一樣還有這個當然我覺得這不是黨派之爭而是作為執政黨的民意代表的助理"},{"start":264.821,"end":291.918,"text":"也陸陸續續的涉入所以我才想請問局長這個事件現在我們所了解的大概有四個人當然我也注意到民進黨相繼的開除了他們的黨籍那這個案件有沒有擴大的可能或跡象就個案來講希望能夠得到委員的理解因為個案我比較不適合去談它的案情或案況因為檢方已經在立案正版"},{"start":292.642,"end":316.48,"text":"那我請問局長 這裡面其中有一位 叫做盛楚英他竟然是20萬元交保 就像您所說的 涉入共諜案他可能已經涉及交付國家的機密 或者一些機密文件20萬可以交保 這是辦共諜案的"},{"start":317.06,"end":337.803,"text":"一個標準嗎而且他立刻去關閉他所有的社交平台那這個其實大家外界就會認為他立刻是不是有這種滅政的可能所以如果辦共諜案20萬交保這個水準從國安局的角度來看會不會增加到時候辦案的一個困難度"},{"start":338.664,"end":363.904,"text":"我們比較不適合去評論審理機關就是法院他對於要不要交保以及交保金額額度的一個裁判那我們尊重法院的一個相關的裁決沒有局長我知道你不願意對個案去做說明但是我要講的就是這個案子到目前為止因為他牽涉了他不是只有一位他就牽涉了好幾位那我們不曉得是不是一個集體辦案的行為"},{"start":364.705,"end":387.07,"text":"但是裡面其中有一位而且是20萬交保我今天要特別講的除非他並不是共諜案但是如果真的已經被涉及到共諜案然後20萬元就交保然後又可以准許他可以快速的關閉他所有的這些相關的平台我覺得這個是未來整個的辦案"},{"start":388.686,"end":395.168,"text":"可能國安局也要跟檢調單位去做一些溝通的你們同不同意"},{"start":397.774,"end":419.852,"text":"理解委員提到這樣的一個樣態要注意的地方那這我們再來加強注意但我必須跟委員說明的是共諜案是媒體的用語那每個案情案況可能都不太一樣那這可能會影響到剛剛委員所質疑的最後請教一下今天早上徐巧欣委員有特別提到但是你覺得說巧欣委員的資訊是"},{"start":421.033,"end":431.297,"text":"他那個資訊不是正確的所以我是很善意的提醒所以你是否認嗎就是國安局裡面的我跟委員說明一下就是當時的質詢的內容的"},{"start":434.252,"end":460.265,"text":"是不是正確的內容那我很怕他做這樣的指控會有一些不必要的問題我指的是法律問題所以我是適度的在提醒我的內容是不太正確的如果國安局裡面也出現有人涉嫌供點案我覺得是非同小可所以恐怕也許您的用字要更為精準一些然後我老實講我會認為該承認就要承認該澄清就要澄清"},{"start":460.965,"end":479.996,"text":"因為我覺得現在真的已經營造一個匪諜就在你身邊尤其我們自己在立法院裡面我們自己也非常小心啊對不對應該的所以這一部分我覺得他能夠應該該澄清該承認我覺得不要讓民眾有任何的覺得這個訊息是有模糊的空間好不好好 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23%裡面有一半又是我們伺服器嚴肅的來檢視這個880億怎麼花"},{"start":201.897,"end":202.557,"text":"我們對這個所謂的他如果是做出口的"},{"start":232.417,"end":248.982,"text":"我們有幾個措施就是說他出口貸款可以做融資就是說他已經有訂單但是這些貨可能在船上或者是貨打包然後結果被通知停止出貨那既這一部分我們會給他一些資源"},{"start":250.182,"end":254.984,"text":"什麼樣的資源是補貼嗎直接型補貼嗎我們就是給他一些貸款啊貸款這就是我想要提出的問題了就是說可以貸款可以設點可以升級研發這其實是在補助還是在補刀因為中小企業最怕的不是沒有競爭力是撐不到可以競爭的那一天貸款也是債啊銀行也要審啊還要評估啊他們現在最缺的是解決眼前問題的這個活水"},{"start":280.337,"end":307.451,"text":"不是增加他們的這個負擔所以我是希望說是不是有可能將部分貸款的額度轉為直接型的補助來紓解他們現在的壓力尤其對於資金鏈中斷者能夠優先處理報告員你所關心的這個地方我們都從簡從素從優來處理希望從簡從素從優所以我們過去可能要搞一個月的我都要求他們兩天就要完成"},{"start":308.411,"end":330.8,"text":"所以這個我想我們從簡 從適從優好 謝謝部長有這樣子的決心那我想要請教部長目前有掌握多少家中小企業的這個訂單被中止或者是有類似的危機呢我們現在在進行訪談我們也就是說不用這個我必須要講今天雲林縣政府在"},{"start":331.9,"end":333.821,"text":"召集這些產業要討論目前遇到的問題但是你經濟部現在派不出人去參加因為我們每一個人都動員也是要派人去啊有的人在這裡有的人在別的委員會有的人到"},{"start":346.405,"end":364.477,"text":"我很願意當這個橋樑我會去聽我也會把問題整合帶回來但也希望說另外有一個困難就是紓困的問題現在現行的紓困是有門檻的就是說要15%的營收衰退才能符合紓困門檻我想請你複雜報告員那都已經取消了取消嗎所以這條線是已經取消了嗎都取消了"},{"start":368.019,"end":386.305,"text":"太好了 因為我本來就想提醒部長說很多中小企業他本來就是唯利在經營甚至營收他跌個10%他可能就虧損了所以這一點希望部長能夠體諒他們我剛才講過了重塑 重優 重減所以不會有這些條款的限制"},{"start":387.515,"end":403.52,"text":"希望說我們所有經濟部能夠站在我們所有產業的角色來感受到他們的困難因為包括他們面臨的取消訂單 貨卡在港口 訂金拿不出來這些狀況其實也希望說我們經濟部這邊能夠趕快掌握最及時的"},{"start":410.222,"end":417.664,"text":"因為呢我們今天的質詢呢其實也是一個意見交流不只指出問題也希望真的有機會為我們這些企業爭取到改變那中小企業呢是我們台灣經濟的根基是數百萬家庭的這個資助那這個"},{"start":428.368,"end":432.132,"text":"也許您說不算是國難啊只是說是一個危機啊但是國難當前的現在需要我們部長還有經濟部所有的官員拿出智慧然後拿出這個決斷力跟這個良知那我想"},{"start":443.325,"end":459.712,"text":"我們大家一起努力我們一起努力我在這個地方有一個部分佔你一點點小時間我跟你報告就是說大家很擔心說我現在東西在船上啦我在怎麼樣怎麼樣我在這邊再報告一次4月5號以前在台灣出貨的走船的是"},{"start":460.572,"end":485.166,"text":"都沒有問題5月27號以前到達美國直接報關了就不受影響是4月5號到4月9號因為他宣布了然後這個部分是10%然後4月9號也就是今天以後才on board那對不起就是32%所以大家在擔心說我現在準備4、5天空電了然後我有什麼東西不知道怎麼樣"},{"start":486.243,"end":512.4,"text":"跟委員報告跟大家報告就是原來的稅率這個我們會在經濟部的網站上面跟經濟部的這個公告上面可能要盡速啦盡速因為很多人現在是非常的恐慌非常的擔憂所以如果可以盡速也許今天下午你就把他PO上網很多中小企業他看了他會比較安心那我也希望說既然今天"},{"start":512.5,"end":527.33,"text":"今天部長有這個決心就是要從速從寬來協助我們這些中小企業本企業比較安心我也希望說我們可以共同努力為他們開闢一條更寬鬆的道路那因為這不只是救企業也是救台灣的忠誠民眾好嗎謝謝部長 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你是行政議員是你副審議長 你是鑑產議員今天在這裡說鑑產議員 鑑產議員你就是鑑產議員 你都這樣撒來撒去好 我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處你們的 主席總署你們的角色是什麼"},{"start":58.005,"end":76.665,"text":"跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些先期"},{"start":78.026,"end":101.599,"text":"計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎"},{"start":106.104,"end":126.807,"text":"那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編 這樣嘛後來大家上行政院 院會後通過 再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的 有一些核酸的那你們再報回去之後 請問你們是怎麼分配"},{"start":127.935,"end":141.022,"text":"我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂"},{"start":141.941,"end":142.621,"text":"所以你就卡在哪裡?"},{"start":169.591,"end":196.325,"text":"因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說統三下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦"},{"start":198.962,"end":227.135,"text":"現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛那種有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣就是跟委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難"},{"start":228.2,"end":233.932,"text":"所以現在已經四月了 你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定所以勒"},{"start":239.844,"end":247.027,"text":"所以現在就是說我一直叫勞動部叫衛務部趕快來申請解凍但是解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛是不是要講清楚喔對就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛是3減的部分"},{"start":269.157,"end":270.1,"text":"所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼錄是好那"},{"start":274.715,"end":297.621,"text":"審計部你的感受是什麼跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行"},{"start":302.162,"end":315.167,"text":"從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務搜索抽查另外一部分是專案調查"},{"start":316.707,"end":327.743,"text":"所以你114年的預算現在互裔也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁"},{"start":330.902,"end":357.805,"text":"跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常破櫃資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查"},{"start":359.126,"end":382.261,"text":"這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaI have no idea"},{"start":383.34,"end":411.014,"text":"就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好 了解好 那你們兩個請回吧部長 瑪莉亞"},{"start":421.338,"end":449.255,"text":"書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的"},{"start":450.575,"end":462.001,"text":"那你大家又有人搶 你有在搶嗎 我不知道啦搶那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產"},{"start":463.359,"end":490.186,"text":"沒有 公務人員是我們的資產 國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍執政 不管綠執政這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易拆車拆到要死然後課高考 課特考 課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵 我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦"},{"start":491.906,"end":518.813,"text":"真的真的所以我們要跟他們加油啦跟他們打氣那因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來"},{"start":522.053,"end":534.96,"text":"檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個聖上仙術在維持我不曉得真的還假的"},{"start":536.496,"end":562.777,"text":"好我問一個我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多有中部的一些譬如說紡織的或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月"},{"start":564.128,"end":568.012,"text":"我現在問說要不要出路三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊"},{"start":572.946,"end":592.923,"text":"那換無薪假也罷 領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工 這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔 確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況 這是有的"},{"start":596.306,"end":623.317,"text":"那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法"},{"start":625.092,"end":638.191,"text":"俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有"},{"start":641.454,"end":664.421,"text":"如果有準備休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在"},{"start":664.901,"end":686.13,"text":"但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括它的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定"},{"start":688.211,"end":696.259,"text":"好 那我們百姓 共和國一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這次要怎麼退回來我是認為 像這個是"},{"start":705.031,"end":731.448,"text":"再出發的這個是乍臨的 再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要跟人家賺錢 你是平常要跟人家賺錢所以一定要 換你判斷說他有安若端有福利或是說有總保私囊這個一定要判決你才能辦法去要嘛 對不對 部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人"},{"start":732.669,"end":761.258,"text":"包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據他如果沒有把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊"},{"start":762.708,"end":769.001,"text":"可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究"},{"start":770.758,"end":797.383,"text":"像陳基普講的說要等到他判刑現在都起訴嘛起訴之後一審、二審、三審要不然到底判定沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了"},{"start":798.22,"end":801.37,"text":"好像有一百萬拿多少就繳出去應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊"},{"start":806.488,"end":827.973,"text":"所以那個前部長 前前部長跟鋁派界定我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追尋我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不然還是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以法務部 那個那個 審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦"},{"start":837.393,"end":858.855,"text":"不過汪洋普勞你往後的要更嚴格我認為你是不會你是很嚴的像現在這種脫序的行為我是當然是不對啦所以我再次的跟我們勞動部我們公務員加油然後要請部長"},{"start":864.099,"end":869.523,"text":"我會很謝謝我們公務的同仁因為他們是最辛苦的謝謝好 謝謝蘇青委員的發言謝謝部長的答案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":750,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時34分）謝謝主席，我請副審計長跟副主計長。"],["李副審計長順保：召委好。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：召委好。"],["蘇委員清泉：副主計長是主計總處嘛，你是行政院的？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：副審計長是監察院的？"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天一直在說監察院、監察院，你就是監察院的，你還在推來推去。","好，從預算編列到預算執行、到決算之後，我要請問主計總處，你們的角色是什麼？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，基本上從預算籌編開始，我們就會請各部會提需求，我們就會進行彙整，再進行區分。如果是屬於公共建設、科技等等，會有一些先期計畫的審議機關，像國發會、科技部等等。最後我們就把彙整的結果經過會議審查以後，提報到行政院院會；院會通過以後就送立法院，大概我們的角色是這樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你們是先前，譬如說，明（115）年的預算，你們現在就開始在張羅，你們就開始編，你們是負責前半段，之後交各個部會怎麼編列，然後再送去行政院，院會通過了再送過來立法院？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：立法院審查，像這一次有一些凍結的、有一些核刪的，你們再報回去之後，請問你們是怎麼分配？主計長說沒辦法分配，凍結的部分他沒有辦法分配，到底這是怎麼一回事？你要講清楚，因為沒有多少人聽得懂啦！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是說，基本上到了立法院，刪減的數字是多少，是要依照立法院三讀審議的結果去計算。這一次主要是因為審議的結果裡面有636億沒有指定哪一個科目，對主計總處來講，我們不能幫立法院決定那個科目，基本上是這個問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以就卡在那裡？因為我在高鐵上跟教育部長同車，他也一直在complain說統刪下來的錢到底他分到多少，是不是這樣？所以他也不曉得要怎麼做，行政院不曉得要怎麼做，是不是這樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，現在覆議也沒有過，那你們現在怎麼辦？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：現在基本上就是說……"],["蘇委員清泉：這跟剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題！有的刪、有的凍，再來就是刪掉的六百多億要怎麼分？勞動部要分到多少、教育部要分到多少？是不是這樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，就是因為這個636億的不確定性，就連動到後面要採取什麼措施變成一種困難！"],["蘇委員清泉：所以現在已經4月了，你們現在怎麼辦？就繼續卡在那裡？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就因為六百多億一直還是不確定。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以呢？身為召委，我要知道你們再來要怎麼做，我一直叫勞動部、叫衛福部趕快來申請解凍。但是解凍是另外一個，這個六百多億是統刪的，是不是？要講清楚喔！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，就是九百多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後，還有636億是不明確的。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以是刪的嘛？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是刪減的部分。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以就卡在這裡，不知道要怎麼辦？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，審計部的角色是什麼？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了，總統如果公布之後，各部會就會分配每一個月的預算，分配之後審計部的主要職掌之一就是會監督預算執行，從會計年度一開始到結束，包括平常會計報告的審核、分配預算的查核，到實際派員就地去財務收支抽查，另外一部分是專案調查。"],["蘇委員清泉：114年的預算覆議也沒過，現在總統府也公布了。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你是114年按月在攤，每個月都有在追蹤考核，是這樣嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：每個月都有審。"],["蘇委員清泉：還是等到115年都弄完了，事後才在……"],["李副審計長順保：沒有、沒有，我們的審核包括書面審核，書面審核就是平常透過資訊系統，跟機關送過來的會計報告，我們也會線上去看它的交易憑證，這個是平常就在做的。然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查，這個是從年頭到年尾都這樣做。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，剛剛主計處說有六百多億未定，那你們怎麼弄？"],["李副審計長順保：我們根據他所確定的，就是部會確定的，我們根據那個數字。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以主計處說的那個未定的六百多億，你們現在要怎麼攤？你們還沒有idea？就是I have no idea，這樣嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的部分，所以變成行政部門沒有辦法獨立去解決這個問題，所以這個變成必須看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼，就是必須行政、立法再度來處理這個問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，了解。你們兩個請回吧！","部長，換你了。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上發生的，這是去年，甚至前年的事情了。你是一個政務官，講白一點，你拍拍屁股就可以走人了，對不對？所以受苦受難的是勞動部這些事務官、公務人員，我覺得他們是很辛苦，他們的士氣滿低迷的，你有沒有在整他們，我不知道啦！"],["洪部長申翰：沒有啦！公務員是我們部裡面最重要的資產。"],["蘇委員清泉：公務人員是我們的資產，國家的財產，我們都要疼惜啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個不管藍執政、不管綠執政，公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我一直覺得公務人員讀書讀到死去活來，好不容易考高考、考特考通過，可是薪水又那麼低，天天來這邊被罵，我覺得要是我，我也不太想幹啦！真的！所以我們也要給他們加油，給他們打氣。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：以前真的有點脫序，現在你來就更嚴格，所以你們連一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴，我覺得有時候要檢討啦！有時候要放寬一點啦！一陣緊、一陣鬆！立法院也是一樣啦！所以我建議就是好好的檢討、檢討啦！我看你從上任到現在都非常戰戰兢兢，我問你好幾次，你說都用腎上腺素在維持，我不曉得真的還假的。就安基金現在有多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：目前有四百多億。"],["蘇委員清泉：這一次美國川普這樣亂搞，中部已經有一些紡織業者或螺絲業者被美國客戶通知先不要出貨三個月！如果不出貨三個月，大家就沒工作了，馬上出問題。放無薪假也罷、領半薪也罷，你們現在打算怎麼幫助這些勞工？這個是最實際的問題！"],["洪部長申翰：跟蘇委員說明，確實在這一個禮拜陸陸續續聽到一些，包括美國的進口商跟臺灣的製造商或出口商，開始有一些在討論訂單上面變動的狀況，這是有的。當然，下一步就看這些臺灣廠商的因應，可能會調動產線，有些可能做內部排班的調整。當然，我們很不希望走上解僱或大量解僱的狀況，所以我們會在相關機制上做把關，也不希望企業濫用減班休息。減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假，可是並不是真的無薪，因為臺灣的減班休息還是要給最低工資，但是如果……"],["蘇委員清泉：最低工資這一塊，你們有沒有補助？"],["洪部長申翰：如果減班休息的話，我們其實有相對應措施，像充電再出發或僱用安定措施可以協助勞工有收入，過去在疫情、金融海嘯時有這樣的經驗，這些措施都還在，但我們也在規劃針對目前關稅的因應版本，做更清楚的因地制宜，或設定在現有的情境下，包括它的適用範圍，甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼？其實我們目前都在做這樣子量身訂做的設定。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，站在百姓跟一般民眾的情感，所以我們一直在問你這些錢要怎麼追回來？我認為你要去追這些錢回來，勢必要有憑有據，不能說部長想要跟人家追錢，但是憑什麼要跟人家追錢？所以一定要法院判定有圖利或中飽私囊，這個一定要有判決才能辦法去要，部長，是不是這樣？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們如果要跟個人，甚至包括對決策者做相關的追究或追討，當然要有法律的依據。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果他沒有把錢放在自己的口袋，除非判定有圖利，不然要向他追錢，我想沒有那麼簡單。"],["洪部長申翰：所以還是要看有沒有法律依據，如果有法律依據，當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做，這就是為什麼我們會配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究。"],["蘇委員清泉：像審計部講的要等到判刑，但現在才起訴，起訴後有一審、二審、三審，之後才有判定，沒有兩、三年搞不定。"],["洪部長申翰：跟蘇委員報告，就我們目前看到檢調起訴書的內容，如果剛剛蘇委員講的是謝前分署長的狀況，檢調寫他已經返還不法所得了。"],["蘇委員清泉：好像繳100萬出去了？"],["洪部長申翰：應該不是這個數字，是兩萬多塊。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以前前部長的情況就更難界定，我看他只有唱歌而已，也沒有幹啥事，所以要怎麼去追錢？我覺得情感歸情感，不過還是要回歸道理跟法治面，所以審計部要求重編等等，這個也都可以理解。亡羊補牢起見，往後你們要更嚴格，我認為你是很嚴格的，像勞動部過去那種脫序的行為當然不對，所以我要再次講勞動部的公務人員們加油！也請部長要好好地幹，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我也很謝謝我們的公務同仁，因為他們是最辛苦的，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言，謝謝部長答詢。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：好，現在處理臨時提案，總共有四案，請一併宣讀。","一、","依決算法第26條、第26-1條及第27條分別規定：「審計長於中央政府總決算送達後三個月內完成其審核，編造最終審定數額表，並提出審核報告於立法院。」、「審計長應於會計年度中將政府之半年結算報告，於政府提出後一個月內完成其查核，並提出查核報告於立法院。」、「立法院對審核報告中有關預算之執行、政策之實施及特別事件之審核、救濟等事項，予以審議。立法院審議時，審計長應答覆質詢，並提供資料；對原編造決算之機關，於必要時，亦得通知其列席備詢，或提供資料。」又審計法第34條第3項規定：「立法院、監察院或兩院中之各委員會，審議前項報告，如有諮詢或需要有關審核之資料，審計長應答復或提供之。」爰請審計部於2周內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核之資料（含審計部及原編造決算之機關間之往來函文及附件）與查核報告及審核報告之內容及出處。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","二、","案由：","有鑑於行政院近日函送立法院之工會法修正草案內容中，對基層廠場人員新增籌組工會之規範略以，乃包含需辦理稅籍登記，以及專責會計人員等條件，此舉實讓基層勞工有感在勞工團結權之行使徒增阻礙。更甚，該草案內容更與國際勞工組織ILO第87號公約所保障勞動者成立與加入組織之結社自由，明訂應採自由主義不得有事前之許可程序所嚴重相悖，並有助長企業弱化特定工會實力之不當勞動行為的效果，更容易衍生雇主經營權凌駕勞工團結權之虞。復以，監察院人權委員會日前甫對於廠場工廠在工會需以獨立會計之要件，更有認定與ILO第98號公約對團結權保障未盡相符。是以，考量該工會法修法之舉，所對我國勞工權利之侵損，以及對我國在自願加入「公民與政治權利國際公約」及「經濟社會文化權利國際公約」兩公約並受後續評鑑之不利益，並徒增兩公約規範勞工對於何種方式進行工會的組織，僅受關係組織規章之限制，特決議要求勞動部需於一個月內啟動辦理完善之社會對話作業，並於各縣市辦理修法意見公聽會並蒐集各基層勞工心聲，俟後並於半年內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　廖偉翔　　邱鎮軍　　王育敏　　盧縣一","三、","案由：","根據勞動及職業安全衛生研究所的研究，彈性化育嬰假制度可以滿足受僱者照顧孩子之需求並降低未來重返職場的困難，避免受僱者因無收入而面臨經濟壓力，且有助於提高男性受僱者育嬰假的使用率。勞動部去年試辦彈性育嬰假，據統計共89家公私企業參與、182人提出申請，申請天數以3天為主，試辦成效不佳，有待檢討。去年係以勞動部發函給有意願參與的公私部門單位方式進行辦理，然而，民間企業或有經營上的難處而難以一蹴可幾，相比之下，公部門應作為推動友善育兒政策的表率，比起只是發函詢問意願，勞動部應積極向行政院、人事總處提出要求，進一步將公部門單位均先行納入試辦計畫，才能由點成線、由線成面於所有公部門試辦彈性育嬰假制度，爰提案要求勞動部於三個月內協調有關單位，完成公部門機構納入試辦計畫之規劃。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","四、","案由：就業安定基金的設置目的在於推動國人職業訓練、就業輔導及失業救助。然而，勞動部及所屬機關長期濫用該基金，嚴重偏離設立宗旨。根據審計部於今年3月21日向勞動部發函指出，109年至112年間，就業安定基金有高達72,246,254元的支出不符基金設置目的及用途，包括製作勞動形象影片、經營臉書粉絲團、辦理喬遷活動、發放春節紅包袋及三節禮品等，均屬不當支出，審計部認定應予收回。然而，勞動部至今未主動啟動內部行政調查與懲處程序，亦未將案件移送檢察機關偵辦，嚴重影響政府財政紀律與社會信任。爰此，提案要求勞動部應立即啟動行政調查，查明相關責任人，並依據《公務員懲戒法》將涉案人員移送懲戒法庭處理，此外，應主動將案件及相關物證移送檢察機關偵辦，以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置。勞動部應於一個月內完成上述事項，並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告辦理情形，以確保就業安定基金真正用於保障國人就業權益，落實基金設置宗旨。","提案人：陳菁徽　　邱鎮軍　　蘇清泉"],["主席：好，我們一件一件處理。","請問第1案，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["李副審計長順保：報告主席跟各位委員，第1案跟審計部有關。倒數第四行，建議文字修正：「爰請審計長」建議改成「爰請審計部」；「於兩週內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核之資料」，「之資料」建議用法定用語，就是「相關審核通知」。至於括號裡面的文字建議都劃掉，因為審核通知的附件都有包括這些資料。「與查核報告」留著；「及審核報告之內容及出處」，像113年度審核報告還沒有編，所以兩個禮拜內是不可能提供的，建議把「及審核報告之內容及出處」文字刪除，謝謝。"],["主席：陳委員，你有意見嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：因為審計部剛剛講到括號裡面的內容全部都已經有包含了，所以也沒有刪的必要吧？"],["李副審計長順保：文字上我們是這樣建議，尊重委員最後的決定。"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得可以保留括號裡面的內容，其他的照您的建議修改，好嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們是建議這樣調整，整個審核通知就包括附件及內容，都會附在裡面。沒關係，我們配合處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：你後面改的地方再唸一遍。副審計長，你再唸一遍。"],["李副審計長順保：「爰請審計部於2週內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核通知（含審計部及……)」，建議「原編造決算之機關」不寫，就是「(……及相關機關間之往來函文及附件）與查核報告」。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這樣可以，謝謝。"],["主席：第1案修改後通過。","第2案，針對第2案明天會有公聽會。"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，有關廠場工會的修法，我們是依據憲法法庭判決第7號，兩年內要在母法上明定。我們參考憲法法庭的判決，也認為應合理限制廠場工會成立，要求一定要有人事跟會計獨立，避免勞勞相爭，從而產生很多會務假，如此可能造成更多的勞方衝突，所以我們認為這樣的規範是合理的。當初我們在訂的時候也有過對話，並邀請勞資雙方都來表達意見，大致的方向也都朝向把它移到母法這個方向，所以這個修正條文已經送到委員會來了。針對這個提案，能不能只留下蒐集基層勞工的意見？我覺得可以，我們再來蒐集一下勞工的意見。","至於社會對話，把勞資雙方再找來討論，由於資方對工會的成立有他們本身的一些看法，也因為有會務假的問題，若再把勞資雙方找來對話，對於修法來說其實比較沒有需要。所以可不可以留下最後那句「蒐集各基層勞工心聲」，然後前面那一段「啟動辦理完善之社會對話作業，並於各縣市辦理修法意見公聽會」就不要放？"],["陳委員菁徽：蘇召委、邱鎮軍委員以及我都有接到一些團體的陳情，他們是希望跟你們對話，不是跟資方對話，所以……"],["王司長厚偉：社會各界就會有……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，應該是說他們還是希望可以表達他們的聲音。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，如果要辦理社會對話作業的話，那麼所謂社會對話就會有資方。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得都可以，因為我們只要邀請來，讓大家有意見可以表達。當然我們沒有預設立場，聽一下大家的意見，綜合起來再做決定。"],["洪部長申翰：可不可以讓我們來蒐集勞資雙方意見？"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要怎麼蒐集？"],["洪部長申翰：我們用各種方式蒐集到之後，因為我想跟委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，公聽會也是一種嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：因為明天就會有公聽會？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，明天不是就要開了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：明天就有公聽會，其實就會來嘛！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，那個就可以把它當作是……"],["洪部長申翰：如果明天辦完公聽會就是一種蒐集的話，這個我們也OK。"],["王委員育敏：其實這個議題我覺得比較是你們跟工會的溝通，到底有沒有真的進行相關的溝通？因為當時知道委員會要排這個案子的時候，的確有很多地方的工會團體是很緊張的。因為他們覺得長期以來，如果說它有各地分會，大概都是由總公司那邊的工會代表，但是它代表不代表他們地方的一些聲音跟意見，所以這個議題我相信你們也理解。這件事情其實不用那麼地匆忙，你們那時候想要很快在委員會過，但是這件事情有那麼急嗎？我個人覺得沒有到那麼急，你其實可以再多蒐集大家的意見。基本上工會的成立是希望可以達到多元聲音的表達，而不是制約成一種聲音，或者是說這一個工會可能因為資方比較是去跟它溝通，然後就會變成跟資方的立場靠近，但是其他比較遠的、在地的那些員工的心聲反而下情都沒有上達，我想部長你自己過去跟勞工團體有一些接觸，重點是在這邊，要怎麼避免防止這樣的情況發生。"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，第一個，確實這一題在工會界是有不太一樣的看法，就是正反都有，正反的意見其實我們也都有掌握。就時效上面的話，確實有一些時間的壓力，因為這個修法是來自於憲法法庭的判決，憲法法庭是判兩年內那個辦法會失效，所以有一點時間壓力的點是來自於憲法法庭。它應該是5月17日會失效，所以我們在時間點上，希望能夠在這段時間趕快來處理相關問題的原因是這樣子。當然也很謝謝委員會明天辦相關的公聽會，讓大家的意見可以並陳，我的意思是說，其實各界的意見都清楚，我們也可以看明天公聽會的狀況，可是我們自己覺得時間上不宜再多拖，因為多拖的狀況下，可能會讓這個部分變成沒有相關的規範，然後衍生後續的一些問題。主要時間點的原因是在這件事情上面，因為憲法法庭是判5月17日原本的辦法就會失效。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們應該要更提前作業，為什麼那麼匆忙，壓縮到現在然後才急急忙忙？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們現在就是希望能在那之前完成，因為這個修法本身，其實就是修工會法六之一的單條。"],["王委員育敏：但我覺得有共識比較重要，不是急著那兩年嘛！你修不好，引發更大的問題跟反彈……"],["洪部長申翰：但是如果出現了空窗，那個空窗可能衍生的問題會更不好處理，因為等於相關規範消失了。"],["王委員育敏：應該還好。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員，其實這件事情需要有一定的規範，當然內容怎樣我們可以討論，我是說內容可以討論，可是時間點上，我們真的認為有時間上的緊迫性！"],["主席：好，今天這個臨時提案你要怎麼改？"],["洪部長申翰：可不可以改成「特決議要求勞動部在一個月內蒐集各勞資」？或者不要寫「勞資」，就是「蒐集各界勞工意見」？然後後面「半年內向本委員會提交書面報告」應該沒有問題，好不好？"],["主席：再唸一遍好了。"],["洪部長申翰：就是最後……"],["王委員育敏：半年內，我覺得這應該不用趕嘛！你剛剛那麼急著修法，現在是半年內都沒有異議？"],["洪部長申翰：對，但這是原本的文字。"],["王委員育敏：如果按照剛剛……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛不是說到5月17日，你們有時間壓力？現在又半年後才提交書面報告？"],["洪部長申翰：半年是上面寫的，最後一句話改成一個月我們也可以啊！就是最後一句話改成「一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告」。"],["王委員育敏：一個月？"],["陳委員菁徽：如果我們衛環委員會辦一場，你們也辦一場，這樣子你們做得到嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以辦，可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那就各辦一場。"],["洪部長申翰：衛環委員會明天辦，對不對？那我們也可以辦一場。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["主席：你們是勞動部自己辦就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：對，可以。"],["主席：陳委員，照他這樣修正可以嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以，就一人辦一場。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：第2案照修改後通過。","第3案。"],["黃司長維琛：第3案的部分在這邊跟委員報告。陳委員、蘇委員、邱委員的提案是希望所有的公部門都來做彈性育嬰留停的試辦計畫，這邊是讓所有公部門都要先納進來試辦，在3個月裡面要來協調有關單位，並且重點是說要完成。但是這個部分涉及到其他的單位，還有軍公教，因為育嬰留職停薪有涉及到軍公教，都適用這個法令，所以要能夠完成這件事情，可能其他單位會有我們現在想不到的問題或者是會遇到困難。所以是不是建議在3個月內「協調」改成「會商」有關單位，然後把「完成」改成「研議」？就是有4個字，把「協調」改成「會商」有關單位，然後是「研議公部門機構納入試辦計畫之規劃」。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以，不過這是部長一直想做的事情嘛！所以我們……"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以陳委員這個提案的概念我是贊成的，只是就時間點上，能不能夠在3個月內完成協調全臺灣這麼多公部門？這件事情我們覺得不一定可以，可是我們想做的其實不只是公部門，我們甚至想往私部門去。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那就照你們的建議修改，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我請問一下部長，育嬰假一般是半年，那現在……"],["洪部長申翰：育嬰留停。"],["主席：留停？"],["洪部長申翰：對，半年。"],["主席：你這個好像要改成可以單天請？一天一天請？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["主席：這樣不就要搞好幾年？"],["洪部長申翰：不是。現在大家倡議的概念total還是6個月，不過可能部分的留停變成可以單天請，但還是在原本6個月的部分。"],["主席：還是在183天內就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：對，不是再外加的，概念是這樣子。"],["主席：第3案修正後通過。","第4案。"],["周處長志信：主席以及各位委員。關於第4案的部分，因為審計部的審查報告也要求本部追究相關責任，同時在提案裡面也有提到移送懲戒法庭。按照懲戒法規定，本部對於薦任九職等以下才有辦法直接移送懲戒法院，只要是簡任以上的，按照程序我們要先移送給監察院，監察院調查認為有違法失職以後提起彈劾案，移送給懲戒法庭。目前監察院已經立案調查了，剛剛部長在答詢的時候也有提到。","至於司法偵辦的部分，本部在第一時間，新北地檢署及臺北地檢署在偵辦的時候，本部已經積極配合偵辦，相關的證卷資料都已經提供給新北檢以及臺北地檢。新北檢最近針對北分署謝宜容的部分已經提起公訴，所以要求本部把案件跟相關卷證再移給檢察官來偵辦，這部分在實務上我們可能會有困難。所以這個提案我們建議可以修正為「爰此，提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任，並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦，以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置。勞動部應於兩個月內完成上述事項，並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告辦理情形，以確保就業安定基金真正用於保障國人就業權益，落實基金設置宗旨」，以上。"],["主席：把你建議修改的跟提案委員說明，休息2分鐘。","休息（12時8分）","繼續開會（12時10分）"],["主席：好，到底是……"],["在場人員：第4案……"],["洪部長申翰：第4案我們的修正意見，剛剛有跟陳菁徽委員說明。"],["主席：要不要唸一下？"],["洪部長申翰：我們再唸一次，好不好？"],["主席：好，再唸一次。"],["洪部長申翰：「爰此，提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任，並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦」，然後懲戒法跟懲戒法庭的部分刪掉，接上「以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置。勞動部應於兩個月內完成上述事項」。"],["主席：照修正後通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。我們中午不休息，要吃便當的就吃便當。","請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce78a52d4ac91146f8a71339fff88aef012eb6e21b32d8c6be5473bcb92a8505d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:36:00 - 11:47:31","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T11:36:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T11:47:31+08:00","duration":691,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.539718750000002,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.759093750000002,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.083468750000002,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.63596875,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.01909375,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.33034375,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.86534375,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.62846875,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.42971875,"end":41.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.60659375,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.17159375,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.23034375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.33534375,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.66846875,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.07346875,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.524718750000005,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.55846875,"end":54.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.84096875,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.97596875,"end":55.009718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.60846875,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.89471875,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.73409375000001,"end":63.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.767843750000004,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.80159375,"end":64.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.61159375,"end":66.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.62409375,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.58971875,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.34159375,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.27346875,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.38284375,"end":97.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.87221875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.84221875,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.61346875000001,"end":110.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.13596875,"end":117.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.88159375000001,"end":119.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.29909375000001,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.88909375,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.52596875,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.23034375,"end":128.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.41159375,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.79534375,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.08596875,"end":134.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.04346875000002,"end":136.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.25846875000002,"end":137.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.81534375,"end":139.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.92471875,"end":141.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.22409375,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.77221875,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.57346875000002,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.69971875000002,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.71221875,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.47159375,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.10846875000001,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.41159375,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.48721875,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.88346875000002,"end":165.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.68846875,"end":167.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.88659375,"end":169.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start"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在黨委員 先進列席的政府機關署長 官員 會長 共同夥伴 媒體 紀律女士先生雖然大家都問署長 還是要讓部長出來走走路 散散步來 請部長和署長好 有請部長 署長還沒接上去 等一下下"},{"start":40.455,"end":47.976,"text":"那個還沒接上去二委員好現在第一頁 部長好 署長好 來第一頁好 這個 請問部長 這邊怎麼唸台灣國小世界盃我去年去參加的時候 他說 台灣國小世界盃"},{"start":69.662,"end":94.18,"text":"其實呢的確有人這麼斷句念台灣國小世界盃我也覺得蠻認同的啦因為國小世界盃這樣的分林賽前面有委員問到了但是呢很積極在推他讓台灣大大的增加了曝光所以呢難怪我們那些在屏東踢足球的說我們去參加台灣國的小世界盃小朋友參加的了解齁所以要繼續支持好不好可以嗎 部長"},{"start":98.262,"end":117.233,"text":"當然好 謝謝 我們開始正題啦 下一張其實剛剛有很多委員在關心的啦我相信部長署長跟我一樣都沒有參加過這個所謂的地下賭局 應該沒有啦就算有也不能承認啦不過小時候有沒有聽聞一些長輩去那種地下賭場的 有沒有"},{"start":118.922,"end":142.581,"text":"也沒有聽過 有啦 不一定可能年齡 還有可能聽說中輩去的地下請問一下 你認為 下一頁喔 上一頁 上一頁目前我們地下賭盤跟運動彩券 什麼樣的差異賠率 大家都說毫不猶豫賠率為什麼地下賭局的賠率會比較高"},{"start":143.8,"end":152.186,"text":"我先問一下,這要問保證啦一般我們如果在地下交通的做裝業的莊家是抽多少你看馬上就去講5%我合理推論他只是聽說啦抽5%嘛那另外95%的賭資是不是拿來當彩金對不對那為什麼地下賭盤他可以開的賠率比較高因為他收的什麼"},{"start":172.23,"end":199.54,"text":"他收的中間的抽錢 抽得很少啦但是我們台灣運彩呢 不一樣對不對 來所以部長喔 請先回那我們先問署長就好了來 接下來往下走運彩的賠率低啊所以很多民眾跑去打地下球板是不是那剛剛署長有回答啦我們是不是運彩基金為什麼運彩條例為什麼寫總金額獎金支出不得超過 為什麼"},{"start":201.107,"end":228.825,"text":"超過78%包委員他是一整年度的平均因為他有22%的這個成本那成本裡面包含他的社會責任有10%要進到運動發展基金培育人才其他是經銷商以及發行機構來對付所以我們來看一下運彩條例的第六點說總金額不得超過78%但是發行機構提出營運計畫維持配套基金主管計畫核定者不在此限所以有沒有空間"},{"start":229.545,"end":238.339,"text":"包委員他的意思是指說你在一整年你的不同的賽事你可能有高有低但是一整年平均下來不能超過78他沒有這樣寫啊他是說"},{"start":240.745,"end":265.182,"text":"每一單項的運動財券獎金單次發行的不得超過總金額的78%但是偶爾可以超過但是整年下來不能這個條文我讀不出這個意思同學當然有特殊原因像在我們在疫情期間的時候特殊狀況我們會有一些特殊的做法那那個特殊的話有沒有符合我們法律的規定有符合它准許你可以金主管機關核定的不在此限是不是這樣"},{"start":267.023,"end":273.118,"text":"是嗎我們會有獨島小局去審如果他們有提出來的話我們會去審他我知道署長都很謹慎我們還是要看一下"},{"start":274.079,"end":299.991,"text":"其實呢運動財運發行條例我們的獎金支出只能78%我們看一下香港是82%有些是90%90%跟我們台灣的地下球板幾乎差不多了對不對所以香港的呢可能他沒有去提撥給這些運動基金你所知道香港的這82%他們有把他們的獎金拿去運產拿去做什麼運動支持嗎有沒有包委員只有台灣是獨有的10%全部進運動基金是的"},{"start":300.851,"end":317.644,"text":"所以說因為台灣獨有這10%所以台灣的運財要跟其他外國的縱使是合法的都有一個競爭力上的困難你去香港的話就是82%的獎金拿出來啊所以它賠率讓人高嘛那這怎麼去克服?蘇長有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":318.144,"end":339.434,"text":"報委員我們跟經銷商在談就是說希望在一定的收入營收之下我們可以在政府的這個10%的比例可以做一個降低讓他們有更多的空間去激勵經銷商來營運抱歉我剛剛有一個比例其實一個比例我們大概是10%是基金12%是行政費78%所以這個行政作業費佔了12%大概你不能動那個10%只能從這12%去調對不對"},{"start":347.078,"end":353.521,"text":"包委員這12%就等於是經銷商他們的收入我不覺得他們會願意做退讓所以我說其實就是這樣子這跟稱呼抽稅一樣"},{"start":359.81,"end":384.513,"text":"你關稅提高進口量降低你能抽到的稅反而變少但是你的關稅降低進口量增加總體的你拿到的絕對金額是多的看比例行政就是銷售的發行單位他好像會說比例降低了嘛但是如果發行量增加很多去地下球板的跑來這裡他是不是總total的他的可營運的作業費提高"},{"start":385.314,"end":405.598,"text":"我同意,因為這是更產業的思維,這是對的。但是因為第三屆已經簽約,這部分我們可能要第四屆才能夠來進行。好,再來我們講第二個事情,因為今天是審條例。運採條例的行政法本席的版本有加上這第四項,但是行政院為什麼把它刪掉?"},{"start":406.567,"end":434.75,"text":"報告委員因為其實這個部分在一般的刑法就已經有規定所以沒有必要在這邊繼續在名列啦好你說因為刑法有規定所以我行政法就不名列嘛我們看一下刑法是什麼妨礙公務罪要以執行者是公務員行政機關滅證罪未證罪這是另外是不是但是我們往下看行政法有跟刑法不能同時存在的嗎我們酒駕"},{"start":436.192,"end":460.333,"text":"酒駕如果在這個標準,0.15到0.25之間是行政法,累犯無上限扣掉照,對不對?有沒有行政法?有。但是酒測值超過0.25的,就是什麼?公共危險,不能安全價值,這是刑法。所以行政法跟刑法,可能它的行為對象的程度不同,有可能是客體不同。所以本來行政法跟刑法就可以同時存在,往下看。"},{"start":461.013,"end":473.976,"text":"但是你現在運採條例你知道嗎運採條例前面他說的是什麼往前跳兩頁他說的是法人團體這是不是行政機關有沒有行政權有沒有構成妨礙公務沒有"},{"start":475.134,"end":492.448,"text":"但是呢如果我們行政機關我們體育署我們要去調查他要主動配合他不主動配合我就可以罰喔但是你來看一下滅政罪跟未政罪往下跳滅政罪跟未政罪第一個妨礙公務要必須對公務員強暴脅迫我們行政法如果說有球團作弊他只要沒有去妨礙公務員他就不構成"},{"start":501.347,"end":523.453,"text":"滅政罪我必須檢察官舉證他有偽造、變造或陰秘或隱匿證據或者說他做虛偽陳述這必須針對的是什麼?針對的是自然人球團是自然人嗎?教練可能是啊 球員可能是啊配合打假球 放水這個裡面行政法他沒有妨礙公務啊"},{"start":524.704,"end":552.887,"text":"你要舉證他有什麼有這些行為舉證之所在敗訴之所在行政法要求我要調查他有沒有放水打假球我必須要有這些內容的主動陳述但是跳回去行政法怎麼樣再往上行政法只要你不主動配合我就可以罰你了解沒有要不要舉證我叫你把資料交出來我問你那天你跑去哪裡有沒有跟那些莊家那個叫什麼"},{"start":555.238,"end":565.793,"text":"賭職的那個聚賭的這些抽頭的人見面吃飯有沒有配合調查他不配合調查那我就可以行政罰了了不了解"},{"start":566.724,"end":588.667,"text":"所以我要說明的是說 我們在整個條例的設計上第一 行政罰跟刑罰是可以並存的第二 刑罰罰的是自然人他的妨礙權利的課題是公務員當我們要確保運採 運動健全發展不會被職業賭博滲透我們必須行政機關 掌有一定的要求他能夠配合調查"},{"start":589.688,"end":609.313,"text":"他如果不配合調查你就是罰他什麼 行政罰嘛他可以行政救濟嘛但是刑法就很嚴格刑法你必須證明說球員或教練有跟這些賭客有一些 你有證據證明他有隱匿 有滅證罪 有未證罪不然的話你罰不到他往下看 我們看結論往前跳一下"},{"start":610.828,"end":626.958,"text":"好所以呢 個人如果觸犯運彩的第21條第4項行政院說我們回歸刑法 我們沒有問題對不對 個人自然能觸犯了嘛他妨礙公安怎麼樣嘛但是如果是法人跟團體他違反這第4項目前你根據刑法你罰不到"},{"start":628.462,"end":649.547,"text":"這樣了解差別了齁我們那個體育署跟我們教育部有法務嘛你們回去研究一下因為我們今天是審法條所以我希望呢你們跟行政院也溝通一下今天委員的提案我們希望未來能夠確保我們的運動在職業運動的過程當中不會運踩的發行造成的我們就要防度過去看結論"},{"start":651.175,"end":669.697,"text":"我們就是希望說除了保障10%的運動中基金提撥外請你檢討獎金的支出率提高的投注誘因遏止地下賭盤的壯大而且也不遂損及到承銷商的權益第二運彩條例保留未配合調查的行政法配合刑法的相關法則才能完善防弊"},{"start":670.658,"end":687.225,"text":"署長 回去要不要研究一下會 我們會把委員的意見帶回去研究帶回去給誰研究 給部長研究嗎我們會跟法務部一起來研究這部分什麼時候可以給本席一個答覆這部分 我們一個月內應該是可以一個月內 好那就兩個題目 謝謝您 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時36分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。雖然大家都問署長，但還是要讓部長出來走走路，散散步。請部長和署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，署長好。請問部長這要怎麼唸？"],["鄭部長英耀：臺灣國小世界盃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年我去參加的時候，有人說是臺灣國、小世界盃。的確有人這麼斷句，唸成臺灣國、小世界盃，我也滿認同的，前面有委員問到國小世界盃的分齡賽，政府也很積極在推，因為讓臺灣大大地增加了曝光機會。難怪那些在屏東踢足球的朋友說，我們去參加臺灣國的小世界盃，小朋友參加的。了解？所以要繼續支持，好不好？可以嗎，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，我們開始進入正題。","剛剛有很多委員關心，相信部長、署長跟我一樣，都沒有參加過所謂的地下賭局，應該沒有啦，就算有也不能承認。小時候有沒有聽過一些長輩說去地下賭場，有沒有？也沒有聽過？有，部長的年齡可能有聽長輩說去地下賭場。請問目前的地下賭盤跟運動彩券有什麼樣的差異？"],["鄭部長英耀：賠率。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大家都毫不猶豫就說賠率。為什麼地下賭盤的賠率會比較高？我想要問部長。一般地下賭場莊家抽多少？主席說5%。我合理推論這是聽說，抽5%，所以另外95%的賭資是不是就拿來當彩金，對不對？為什麼地下賭盤的賠率可以開得比較高？因為中間的抽成抽得比較少，但臺灣運彩不一樣。部長先請回，我們請問署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：運彩的賠率低，所以很多民眾跑去打地下球版，是不是？其實剛剛署長有回答，但請問運彩條例為什麼寫獎金支出不得超過78%？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這是一整年度的平均，且有22%的成本，成本裡面包含社會責任，所以有10%要進入運動發展基金培育人才，其他由經銷商及發行機構對分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們來看一下，運彩條例第六條提到，總金額不得超過78%，但發行機構提出營運維持計畫或配套，經主管機關核定者不在此限。所以有沒有空間？"],["鄭署長世忠：它的意思是指你在一整年，不同的賽事你可以有高有低，但是一整年平均下來不能超過78%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它沒有這樣寫啊！它是說每一單項的運動彩券獎金單次發行不得超過總金額的78%，但是偶爾可以超過，整年下來不能超過，這個條文我讀不出這個意思。"],["鄭署長世忠：當然有特殊原因啦！像我們在疫情期間的時候，特殊狀況我們也會有一些特殊的做法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那個特殊狀況有沒有符合我們法律的規定？有符合啊！它准許你可以，經主管機關核定者不在此限，是不是這樣？是嘛？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們會有督導小組去審……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然啦！"],["鄭署長世忠：如果他們有提出來的話，我們會去審查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道署長很謹慎，但我們還是要看一下，其實根據運動彩券發行條例，我們的獎金支出只能有78%，香港是82%，有些海外合法機構是90%，90%跟我們臺灣的地下球版幾乎差不多了，對不對？所以香港的可能它沒有去提撥給運動基金，你所知道香港的這82%，他們有把他們的運彩拿去做什麼運動支持嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭署長世忠：只有臺灣是獨有的10%全部進運動發展基金。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，因為臺灣獨有的這10%，所以臺灣的運彩要跟其他外國的比，縱使是合法的，都有競爭力上的困難，你去投注香港的，它就是82%的獎金拿出來啊！所以它的賠率當然高嘛！這要怎麼去克服？署長有沒有什麼想法？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們跟經銷商在談，希望在一定的營收之下，我們在政府這個10%的比例可以降低，讓他們有更多的空間去激勵經銷商來營運。"],["鍾委員佳濱：抱歉，我剛剛有提到一個比例，我們大概10%是基金，12%是行政費，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：78%，這個行政作業費占了12%，大概你不能動那個10%，只能從這12%去調，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：這12%等於是經銷商的收入，我不覺得他們會願意做退讓。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實就是這樣子，這跟政府抽稅一樣，你關稅提高進口量降低，你能抽到的稅反而變少，但是你的關稅降低進口量增加，總體你拿到的金額絕對是多的。看比例，銷售的發行單位它會說比例降低了嘛！但是如果發行量增加，很多去地下球版的跑來這裡，它是不是總total可營運的作業費提高？這樣你有想懂了？"],["鄭署長世忠：我同意，因為這是更產業的一個思維，這是對的，但是因為第3屆已經簽約，這部分我們可能要第4屆才能夠來進行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。再來，我們講第二件事情，因為今天是審條例，運彩條例的行政罰，本席的版本有加上第四項，但是行政院為什麼把它刪掉？"],["鄭署長世忠：因為這個部分在一般的刑法已經有規定，所以沒有必要在這邊再明列。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你說因為刑法有規定，所以我行政罰就不明列嘛！我們看一下，刑法是什麼？妨害公務罪，執行者是公務員、行政機關，滅證罪、偽證罪這是另外，是不是？","我們往下看，行政罰與刑罰不能同時存在嗎？酒駕如果在0.15到0.25這個標準之間是行政罰，累犯無上限，吊扣駕照，對不對？有沒有行政罰？有。但是酒測值超過0.25的就是什麼？公共危險，不能安全駕駛，這是刑罰，所以行政罰跟刑罰可能它的行為對象程度不同，也有可能是客體不同，所以本來行政罰與刑罰就可以同時存在。","但是你現在運彩條例，你知道嗎？運彩條例前面它說的是什麼？它說的是法人、團體，這是不是行政機關？有沒有行政權？有沒有構成妨害公務？沒有。但是如果我們行政機關，我們體育署要去調查，它要主動配合，它不主動配合，我就可以罰哦！","我們來看一下滅證罪跟偽證罪。第一個，妨害公務，必須要對公務員強暴脅迫。行政罰，如果說有球團作弊，它只要沒有去妨害公務員，它就不構成。滅證罪，必須檢察官舉證他有偽造、變造、湮滅或隱匿證據，或者說他做虛偽陳述，這必須針對的是什麼？針對的是自然人，球團是自然人嗎？教練可能是啊！球員可能是啊！配合打假球放水，這個裡面行政罰，他沒有妨害公務啊！你要舉證他有這些行為，「舉證之所在，敗訴之所在」，行政罰要求我要調查他有沒有放水打假球，我必須要有這些內容的主動陳述。","但是我們跳回去看第四項，行政罰怎麼樣？行政罰只要你不主動配合，我就可以罰你，瞭解沒有？要不要舉證？我叫你把資料交出來，我要問你那一天跑去哪裡，有沒有跟那些莊家、跟聚賭這些抽頭的人見面吃飯？有沒有？配合調查啊！他不配合調查，那我就可以裁罰，這樣瞭不瞭解？","我要說明的是，我們在整個條例的設計上，第一，行政罰與刑罰是可以並存的。第二，刑罰罰的是自然人，他妨害權利的客體是公務員，當我們要確保運彩、運動健全發展不會被職業賭博滲透，行政機關必須掌有一定的權限要求他能夠配合調查，他如果不配合調查，你就是罰他什麼？行政罰嘛！他可以行政救濟嘛！但是刑罰就很嚴格，刑罰你必須證明球員或教練有跟這些賭客……你有證據證明他有隱匿，有滅證罪、偽證罪，不然的話你罰不到他。","我們往下看。個人如果觸犯運彩條例的第二十一條第四項，行政院說回歸刑法，我沒有問題，對不對？個人、自然人觸犯了嘛！他妨害公務還是怎麼樣嘛！但是如果是法人跟團體違反這個第四項，目前根據刑法你罰不到，這樣瞭解差別了？體育署跟教育部有法務，你們回去研究一下，因為今天是審法條，所以我希望你們跟行政院也溝通一下，今天委員的提案，我們希望未來能夠確保在職業運動的過程當中，不會因為運彩的發行……我們叫做防杜過去。","看結論，我們希望除了保障10%的運動基金提撥外，請你檢討獎金的支出率，提高投注誘因，遏止地下賭盤的壯大，而且也不會損及到承銷商的權益。第二，運彩條例保留未配合調查的行政罰，配合刑法的相關罰則才能完善防弊，署長，回去要不要研究一下？"],["鄭署長世忠：會，我們會把委員的意見帶回去研究，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：帶回去給誰研究？給部長研究嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們會跟法務部一起來研究這部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候可以給本席一個答復？"],["鄭署長世忠：一個月內應該是可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一個月內，那就兩個題目，謝謝您，謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝署長。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcec4b36ef873d95faaeafc78fb10225fff2eb6e21b32d8c6be2c120f4751f248e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:39:05 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我們請國安局蔡局長不好意思 要不要先 局長先喝口水再上來 沒關係好 謝謝李委員局長好這個 本席請教一下在今年的4月1號這個中國有一個聯合演訓但是它並沒有公布代號那當然有人說 那是不是漁人節的關係所以它沒有公布代號"},{"start":27.882,"end":46.7,"text":"但是他在4月2號他就有一個海峽雷霆2025A的一個演習那請教一下局長就是說這個4月1號的沒有公佈代號您知道說他的用意在哪裡嗎有人是解讀說是這一個是不是他的演習軍演已經常態化了所以也不用代號了"},{"start":48.372,"end":75.273,"text":"基本上我們剛剛也跟其他委員在說明了覺得這次的演習比較像是把一些例行性的演習來做一個整合也是指4月1號還是4月2號這次演習整個看起來是這樣因為一般來講假如是一個規劃比較完整的演習的話可能在演習的第一個時間點就有一個演習代號出來但這一次在第一天並沒有但它已經達到了演習的規模但到了第二天才又來了一個演習的代號來延續第一天的演習"},{"start":75.933,"end":98.994,"text":"那這樣的做法在以前比較少看到局長你是認為說他這次演習是比較衝突的我是有這個意思那為什麼會衝突來舉辦這個演習他的用意在哪裡因為在時間點上我剛才跟其他委員在報告因為時間點事實上離3月13號賴總統的國安高層會議已經隔了有兩三個禮拜的時間"},{"start":99.815,"end":128.825,"text":"那那個時間點有比較特殊的是美國國防部有所謂的在印太的戰略佈局會有比較壓制中共維護區域現狀的這些規劃那可能讓中共覺得他必須要有些反制的動作那再加上當時是因為美國的國防部部長那個Hexes他剛好在關島日本跟菲律賓做訪問所以幾乎就在美國防長離開日本之後這個演習就啟動了所以我們感覺上演習的規劃上似乎沒有過去那麼的"},{"start":130.305,"end":153.813,"text":"所以那如果這樣子的話他的演習是演給台灣看還是演給美國看?我想他的演習不只是演給外界看也在演給內部看因為時間上也包括到他內部正在整肅東部戰區的相關的重要的將領那透過這種演習對內還是有一些功能在政治的功能一方面讓軍心可以比較集中在演訓而不要去在乎這些政治動盪"},{"start":154.893,"end":175.482,"text":"或政治清洗整肅的議題那另一方面也可以讓外界可以知道說中國即使內部在進行政治整肅軍隊在進行清洗但是他還是有能力來組織這種有相當規模的軍事演習所以在考量的面向非常的多所以是國安局對於這個這個4月1號跟4月2號的這個演習的整個概括的評估就對了"},{"start":177.824,"end":198.765,"text":"我問一下你們報告的第一頁其實寫的說現在川普政府的政策就是美國優先然後以集中資源對中國的威脅那我請教一下像這次川普的關稅戰是不是也是屬於集中資源對中國威脅的一個策略方法"},{"start":199.469,"end":224.815,"text":"因為在看他的相關的政策規劃背後的一些思維來講那我不知道委員有沒有注意到在歐洲地區那大概美國現在是希望歐洲盟友能夠更負擔起歐洲安全的責任但在中東地區可能也是希望盡快的穩定當地的局面那以便更多的資源可以投注到印太地區來而且假如委員注意到美國的相關的國防資源的配置印太地區也"},{"start":225.695,"end":246.682,"text":"會是未來的一個關注的重點所以用這樣子的方式來理解跟推論的話可以理解到可能美國對於中共在安全或戰略面對美國構成的挑戰他們非常的重視而做一些比較全盤的規劃美國現在最常用的一個字叫Pacing Challenge就是一個中共是一個不斷迫近的一個挑戰跟威脅"},{"start":248.002,"end":255.01,"text":"所以關稅戰是不是也要...關稅的部分也是我想美國現在加總對中國的關稅已經超過100%以上了等一下12點就要開正式生效了加起來就超過104%"},{"start":262.719,"end":283.212,"text":"我剛要跟委員報告的是不管從安全戰略面或是從經貿面因為美國除了有關稅以外另外還有小院高牆的意思就是針對高科技的管制出口以及避免中國大陸產品的洗產地相關的一個規劃所以整體解讀起來會覺得對中有相當程度的針對性"},{"start":284.133,"end":308.363,"text":"那接下來會不會繼續影響到這個中國的經濟因為我看你們的報告上面有寫到說中國內部的這個經濟社會形勢是嚴峻的這個經濟成長率有可能會下調那當然經過關稅戰之後有可能再往下再調那也就是說他的這個經濟持續不振那甚至年輕人的這個失業率一樣是非常高那有沒有一種可能性就是說中國因為受到這個關稅戰的挑戰"},{"start":310.124,"end":320.035,"text":"然後經濟受到影響那內部的這一個不管是民族主義或是軍事力量要抬頭會把這個焦點由內轉外又對台灣造成影響"},{"start":320.888,"end":342.333,"text":"對 不能排除任何的可能性那委員剛剛講到經濟的問題確實也是我們在關注的重點因為剛剛我們在夜報裡面有提到國際的各方面的金融機構對於中共的整體的經濟成長率估算大概今年只有4%到4.6%比中共官方想要預期達到5%你這個是在關稅戰之前說出來的"},{"start":344.233,"end":360.13,"text":"那現在假如是關稅站再加租上來的話也有國際的機構在評估假如美國的關稅對中國有到六成的話60%的話那中共的GDP受到影響可能會有2%到3%之多那更何況現在的關稅已經加高到那會不會把這個壓力由內轉外"},{"start":362.832,"end":386.685,"text":"不能排除任何的可能性當然有兩種可能一種可能是因為經濟不好他必須要聚焦在國內的經濟問題那不要在節外生吃但是另外一種可能性就在於說也有可能利用這個機會來轉移內部的壓力透過一些外部的一個情勢的升高的操作那這部分我們會嚴密的來注意因為退論歸退論最重要的還是回到我們國安或國防部"},{"start":387.225,"end":406.101,"text":"對於中共相關軍事動態的聯合情監偵的能量能夠把它發揮那一有任何動態我們就可以預警的話就可以避免到剛剛委員所擔心發生的一個狀況好 我最後一個問題請教一下這一個 等一下請移民署署長是不是一起上來就是說現在有有這個有三個"},{"start":406.681,"end":407.762,"text":"我們也是從公開的語情裡面來掌握"},{"start":425.174,"end":451.162,"text":"所以跟我看得到是一樣的就是說那但是也有眾說紛紜有的說他馬上就被接走了安置得很好啊那個也是公開的語言所以你們沒有掌握到就對了沒有掌握到那在局長這邊有掌握到訊息嗎我們後續再繼續來處理好那我再問一下移民署署長那現在還有沒有這一種有居留權的中配因為違反這個武統言論那還在處理當中的"},{"start":453.202,"end":474.759,"text":"目前我們現階段掌握的應該是到目前是這三個案子就拘留犬的案子那具有台灣身份證的咧那後續應該是還有一些案子還有一些案子再處理就對了只是因為他們具有台灣的身份證比較複雜是是好那我了解了好謝謝謝謝李坤臣"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":746,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時39分）謝謝主席，請國安局蔡局長，不好意思，局長要不要先喝口水再上來？沒關係。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝李委員。"],["李委員坤城：局長好。本席請教一下，在今年的4月1號中國有一個聯合演訓，但是它並沒有公布代號，當然有人說是不是因為愚人節的關係，所以它沒有公布代號，但是在4月2號，它就有一個海峽雷霆─2025A的演習。請教一下局長，4月1號沒有公布代號，您知道它的用意在哪裡嗎？有人解讀是不是它的軍演已經常態化，所以也不用代號了。"],["蔡局長明彥：基本上，我們剛剛也跟其他委員說明，覺得這次演習比較像是把一些例行性的演習做一個整合，來變成……"],["李委員坤城：你是指4月1號還是4月2號？"],["蔡局長明彥：這次演習整個看起來是這樣。因為一般來講，假如是一個規劃比較完整的演習，可能在演習的第一個時間點，就有一個演習代號出來，但這一次在第1天並沒有，而且已經達到演習的規模，到第2天，才來了一個演習的代號延續第1天的演習，這樣的作法在以前比較少看到，所以我們……"],["李委員坤城：局長，你認為他這次演習是比較匆促的？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我是有這個意思。"],["李委員坤城：對，為什麼會匆促來舉辦這個演習，他的用意在哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為在時間點上，我剛剛也跟其他委員報告，因為時間點，事實上，離3月13號賴總統的國安高層會議，已經隔了有兩、三個禮拜的時間，那個時間點有比較特殊的是，美國國防部有所謂的在印太的戰略布局，會有比較壓制中共、維護區域現狀的這些規劃，可能讓中共覺得他必須要有些反制的動作，再加上當時是因為美國的國防部部長Hegseth，他剛好在關島、日本跟菲律賓做訪問，所以幾乎就在美國防長離開日本之後，這個演習就啟動了，所以我們感覺上演習的規劃上，似乎沒有過去那麼地……"],["李委員坤城：所以如果這樣子的話，他的演習是演給臺灣看，還是演給美國看？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想他的演習不只是演給外界看，也在演給內部看，因為時間上也包括到他內部正在整肅東部戰區的相關的重要將領，透過這種演習，對內還是有一些政治的功能在，一方面讓軍心可以比較集中在演訓，而不要去在乎這些政治動盪或政治清洗整肅的議題；另一方面也可以讓外界知道，中國即使內部在進行政治的整肅，軍隊在進行清洗，但是他還是有能力來組織這種有相當規模的軍事演習，考量的面向非常地多。"],["李委員坤城：所以這是國安局對於4月1號跟4月2號的演習的整個概括的評估就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，我問一下你們的報告的第1頁寫著，現在川普政府的政策就是美國優先，然後以集中資源對中國的威脅。我請教一下，像這次川普的關稅戰，是不是也算是屬於集中資源，對中國威脅的一個策略、方法？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，因為以他相關的政策規劃背後的一些思維來講，我不知道委員有沒有注意到在歐洲地區，大概美國現在是希望歐洲盟友能夠更負擔起歐洲安全的責任；在中東地區，可能也是希望儘快地穩定當地的局面，以便更多的資源可以投注到印太地區來。而且，假如委員注意到美國的相關的國防資源的配置，印太地區也會是未來的一個關注的重點，所以用這樣子的方式來理解跟推論的話，可以理解到可能美國對於中共在安全或戰略面對美國構成的挑戰，他們非常的重視，而做了一些比較全盤的規劃。美國現在最常用的一個字叫pacing challenge，就是說中共是一個不斷迫近的挑戰跟威脅。"],["李委員坤城：所以關稅戰是不是也要……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，關稅的部分也是，我想美國現在加總對中國的關稅已經超過100%以上了。"],["李委員坤城：等一下12點就是正式生效了。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["李委員坤城：加起來有超過104%。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。所以我剛剛要跟委員報告的是，不管從安全戰略面或是從經貿面，因為美國除了有關稅以外，另外還有「小院高牆」的意思，就是針對高科技的管制、出口，以及避免中國大陸產品的洗產地相關的一個規劃，所以整體解讀起來，會覺得對中有相當程度地針對性。"],["李委員坤城：好，接下來會不會繼續影響到中國的經濟，因為我看你們的報告上面有寫到，中國內部的經濟社會，形勢是嚴峻的，經濟成長率有可能會下調，當然經過關稅戰之後，有可能往下再調。也就是說，他的經濟持續不振，甚至年輕人的失業率一樣是非常高，有沒有一種可能性就是說，中國因為受到這個關稅戰的挑戰，然後經濟受到影響，內部不管是民族主義或是軍事力量要抬頭，會把這個焦點由內轉外，又對臺灣造成影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，不能排除任何可能性。委員剛剛講到經濟問題，確實也是我們在關注的重點，因為剛剛我們在業報裡面有提到國際各方面的金融機構，對於中共的整體經濟成長率，估算大概今年只有4%到4.6%，比中共官方想要預期達到的5%還有一點差距。"],["李委員坤城：這個是在關稅戰之前做出來的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對、對。現在假如是關稅戰再加諸上來的話，也有國際的機構在評估，假如美國的關稅對中國有到六成的話，中共的GDP受到影響可能會有2%到3%之多，更何況現在的關稅已經加高到104%。"],["李委員坤城：會不會把這個壓力由內轉外，就是說……"],["蔡局長明彥：不能排除任何的可能性，當然有兩種可能，一種可能是因為經濟不好，他必須要聚焦在國內的經濟問題，不要再節外生枝。但是另外一種可能性就在於說，也有可能利用這個機會來轉移內部的壓力，透過一些外部情勢升高的操作，這部分我們會嚴密地來注意。因為推論歸推論，最重要的還是回到我們國安或國防部，對於中共相關軍事動態的聯合情監偵的能量能夠把它發揮，一有任何動態，我們就可以預警的話，就可以避免到剛剛委員所擔心發生的一個狀況。"],["李委員坤城：我最後一個問題請教一下。等一下請移民署署長一起上來，現在有3個中配被強制出境，包含亞亞、小微、恩綺，他們現在已經回到中國，對於他們回到中國的狀態，你們有沒有掌握到？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們也是從公開的輿情裡面來掌握。"],["李委員坤城：所以跟我看得到是一樣的。"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["李委員坤城：但是也眾說紛紜，有的說馬上就被接走了，安置得很好。"],["鐘署長景琨：那個也是公開的輿情。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們沒有掌握到就對了？"],["鐘署長景琨：畢竟這些我們沒有辦法去瞭解、掌握。"],["李委員坤城：蔡局長這邊有掌握到訊息嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我後續再繼續來注意。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再問一下移民署署長，現在還有沒有居留權的中配，因為違反武統言論，還在處理當中的？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們現階段掌握的，到目前應該是這3個案子，就居留權的案子。"],["李委員坤城：具有臺灣身分證的呢？"],["鐘署長景琨：後續應該是還有一些案子。"],["李委員坤城：還有一些案子在處理就對了，只是因為他們具有臺灣的身分證比較複雜。"],["鐘署長景琨：是、是。"],["李委員坤城：好，我了解了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員上臺質詢。","接下來由鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","接下來由王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdced0ccfad63457b502a0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6be87251998cad1e1525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:37:06 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為什麼 不會合併呢我知道了 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Foundry跟聯電這個事情我可以告訴你不可能好"},{"start":387.91,"end":402.137,"text":"然後呢所以我們不會同意嘛對不對所以我們最後我們講說所以美國商業部長講說如果我們要把全部的半導體從台灣移到美國我們是反對的我們不會同意對吧"},{"start":403.151,"end":411.075,"text":"我們會有各種情境的假設你剛剛已經說了連電不會去合併跟美國這邊合併所以你的意思就已經很清楚了你不會讓全部的半導體從台灣移到美國嗎這就是一個邏輯嗎我時間到了謝謝你這個邏輯怪怪的好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時37分）謝謝主席，我們有請經濟部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。新聞傳出聯電要與全球第五大晶圓代工廠格羅方德合併的消息，也引發很多人的批評說先把護國神山台積電賣掉了，連二哥聯電也要賣。請問部長對這件事情是樂觀其成還是倍感憂心？"],["郭部長智輝：我想這些假設性的……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為他們已經談到蠻深入啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們的訊息是……我認為這是假設性的命題。"],["徐委員巧芯：你認為他們不會合併？是假消息？"],["郭部長智輝：我們到目前為止沒有收到這樣的申請。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為聯電跟格羅方德不會合併？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有收到這方面的訊息嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，如果他們合併的話，您是樂觀其成還是會有所憂心？"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為這是假設性的命題，經濟部不宜……"],["徐委員巧芯：假設性的問題，你還是可以回答呀！因為就兩個嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：不宜對假設性的命題回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：第一個就是他們會合併，第二個就是他們不會合併嘛，你只有兩種選擇而已啊！如果他們合併了，你會倍感憂心還是會樂觀其成？如果他們不合併，你會倍感憂心還是樂觀其成？這不算是一個假設性的問題，因為你只有兩種選擇。"],["郭部長智輝：好，委員，你要跟我討論的是學術性的探討，我可以告訴你……"],["徐委員巧芯：我要問你作為一個經濟部長的探討。"],["郭部長智輝：如果是學術性的探討，我認為他們不可能合併。"],["徐委員巧芯：喔，你認為他們不可能合併！好，你認為他們不可能合併嘛！如果合併了呢？如果他們最終合併了，你今天在這裡的……"],["郭部長智輝：就是不會合併嘛！就不會合併嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你確定他們不會合併就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：我說這是學術性的探討，它就是不會合併。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有啦，我只是問你如果他們最後合併了，你在這裡告訴大家不會合併……"],["郭部長智輝：因為這不在我能夠了解的範圍之內，為什麼？因為合併了……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，反正我知道，我知道了，經濟部長告訴我們說他們不會合併。部長，您5月11號到14號去參加企業領袖訪美團，在美國投資高峰會裡面，有沒有可能去見證他們相關的MOU？我們會有哪一些的企業……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這是假設性的題目嘛，我怎麼會去一個……"],["徐委員巧芯：你就已經要準備去參加了嘛，你去參加之後……"],["郭部長智輝：去一個假設性的情境，然後去參加，這是不可能的事情！"],["徐委員巧芯：你2025年有沒有要去參加這個高峰會？你有沒有要赴美參加這個投資高峰會？有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：赴美參加美國的SelectUSA高峰會，這個是行政院在調整的。"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有要參加？"],["郭部長智輝：我們目前都是動態的。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以2025年你有沒有要去參加，你不知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你說我不知道什麼？"],["徐委員巧芯：你不知道2025年美國投資高峰會，你自己本人有沒有要去參加？"],["郭部長智輝：我本人去不去參加不是我決定的，而是由行政院決定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以目前你本人不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：我目前當然是沒有收到這個指示。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不知道，那我也沒辦法，你好像很多事情都不知道。","先前3月在亞利桑那州返臺的時候……"],["郭部長智輝：是不存在的事情，我沒有那麼厲害可以知道不存在的事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：不存在的事情！所以你的意思就是說你不會喔。其他很多部門今天他要準備今年去哪裡、哪裡拜訪的時候，他們的schedule都已經出來了。我只有在你這裡才有聽到你說「哎呀，我還不知道2025年的這個活動我要去還是不要去」，我只有在這裡才聽過你講這樣子的話。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為你假設的問題不見得是我要知道的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：那是你這樣認為，我不這樣認為，我在其他所有的委員會裡面，我詢問說「你們今年會有哪一些出訪」，大家都已經把2025年的schedule排好了，目前只有你不知道。"],["郭部長智輝：不是目前只有我不知道，那是假設性的問題，是非常奇怪的問題啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：你認為是假設性的問題，但在其他委員會部長的回答裡面，他們都已經把今年的時程表給規劃好了，只有你不知道！沒有關係，川普當天演說的時候有提到「我們要拿走臺灣的，拿走臺灣所有的半導體跟晶片」，後來商務部長又講「川普之後會做更深入的研究，看看要如何把全部的半導體製造從臺灣移到美國」，請問這個真的會發生嗎？我們會同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對各種情境的假設，我們都會評估啦。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們都不會評估？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都會評估。"],["徐委員巧芯：喔，你剛剛說不會，所以……"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有講不會，是你聽錯了喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：這等於說，政府對於美國商業部部長已經說出來的，要把全部的半導體製造從臺灣移到美國，你們現在要開始評估，還是你們評估已經做多久了？"],["郭部長智輝：我們早就有評估了。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們評估是要怎麼樣？你們是……你為什麼要說我是假設性的問題呢？你們都已經評估了，我就問你們會同意還是不同意嘛！你們評估的結果是什麼嘛！評估的結果是什麼？這種不是假設性的吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的假設性很多啊，有很多啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：有很多，很多是什麼？你講一個、兩個來聽聽嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["徐委員巧芯：講一個、兩個來聽聽啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是啦，你想要聽哪一個啊？"],["徐委員巧芯：我隨便你、我隨便你，你講一、兩個來聽就好，因為我要知道你到底評估了什麼！"],["郭部長智輝：剛才就是你在講……"],["徐委員巧芯：你說你有評估，但是你評估了什麼，你完全沒講！那我到底知不知道、我到底能不能知道你有沒有評估啊？"],["郭部長智輝：你就亂問啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有啊，我亂問個屁啊！你剛才說你們已經有評估了，然後我問你說你評估了什麼，你一個都講不出來！"],["郭部長智輝：我已經說我們有很多，你要聽哪一個啊？"],["徐委員巧芯：我隨便你講一個嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我現在在講嘛，你剛才提供的Global 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謝謝主席 我想首先先請陸委會和移民署是兩副主委嗎 兩副主委和陳副署長市委委員好"},{"start":35.91,"end":50.309,"text":"副主委好還有副署長好我想就是從昨天到今天在整個新聞上面還有我包含本席也收到很多的民眾打電話來抱怨"},{"start":53.189,"end":77.378,"text":"陸委會跟移民署發了這個通知書就是要求這些陸配他們要檢附在大陸的儲戶證明然後在這裡你們寫的法令依據是兩岸人民關係條例的第九條之一以及第十七條第五項第三款的規定我首先想請教移民署你們這次發出去多少份的通知書"},{"start":79.516,"end":101.248,"text":"8號委員我們這次共發了一萬多份多少一萬多份一萬多少份呢一萬兩千多份一萬兩千多份那麼主要發出去的對象是民國93年之前取得身份證的嗎還是有哪些人我們有包括就是93年3月1號施行"},{"start":102.328,"end":128.792,"text":"兩岸關係條例修正的3月1號修正以後必須要在這個之前取得身份的陸配他必須在6個月之內繳付除籍證明這是第一個第二個就是從93年之後因為疫情的關係我們有這一些到最近都還沒有繳交除籍證明文件的這些"},{"start":131.706,"end":147.031,"text":"所以簡單來說就是有一批人是民國93年之前就已經取得了身份證的然後以及就是說還有另外一群是在近期疫情期間取得身份證的我想請問一下在93年之前"},{"start":147.671,"end":176.366,"text":"取得身份證的當時應該是依據舊法因為在兩岸人民關係條例是在民國92年年底的時候修法施行是從93年開始施行所以呢在你們現在講的這個依據是依據第九條之一然後要求這個93年之前取得身份證的陸配必須要再補繳這個證件我想請教就是在九之一條的這個規定它的規範對象是包含哪些人"},{"start":178.732,"end":203.678,"text":"他所有大陸來台取得定居的這些陸配是只有那所以呢如果我們台灣地區的人民我們台灣人在大陸那裡有涉戶籍呢93年之前有涉戶籍的呢報告委員他這一條的意思就是所有台灣地區人民都不能夠在大陸涉籍如果你在大陸涉籍你就要在六個月之內"},{"start":204.887,"end":226.243,"text":"取消那邊的身份 放棄原籍證明那所以這邊所謂的台灣地區人民就是在那個時候擁有台灣身份證的人 就這樣好 所以呢 也就是說九之一條的規定基本上它的規範對象是全台灣人 對不對在台灣地區的全中華民國民 就是在那個時候有身份證的人"},{"start":227.745,"end":242.317,"text":"因為我講嘛 第一項嘛不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛所以就是說在93年的時候這條91條規定是所有的台灣人包括我們現在所有的人都不可以在大陸設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛"},{"start":243.118,"end":261.794,"text":"那我現在要質疑的就是說你陸委會如果說你今天質疑說現在台灣人可能有些人是在大陸地區有護照或是有戶籍你為什麼你不全面清查你為什麼只挑93年之前已經取得中華民國身份證他理論上他就已經是中華民國國民了"},{"start":264.465,"end":290.592,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在93年之前如果他是陸配他取得台灣的身份證但如果他也沒有交那個撤銷對面戶籍的證明的話那我們肯定他就有這一條的適用我想請教一下93年之前的當時這群陸配他們申請身份證那時候的法規裡面有要求他們要付儲戶證明嗎"},{"start":292.374,"end":309.041,"text":"93年以前沒有可是據我了解這也是很多的就是本席街道這邊有民眾陳情那時候其實他們也有檢附一些主婦證明好像是當時交到另外不同的機關裡面去那麼更何況現在已經事隔這麼多年那看起來這次的陸委會其實就是特別就是針對陸配是你們推定他們這些人在大陸都有戶籍或是護照嗎"},{"start":321.219,"end":341.957,"text":"戶籍我應該這樣講在大陸如果說他是陸配他在大陸一定有戶籍那他將來台灣他拿到身份如果他沒有繳交撤銷大陸戶籍的證明的話除非他在大陸是無戶籍國民因為當時他們可能來台灣的時候就已經"},{"start":343.735,"end":358.022,"text":"已經除戶了已經放棄戶籍事隔這麼多年二十幾年那麼我想要再請問的就是說因為從最近陸委會的種種的措施來看基本上就是找陸配麻煩"},{"start":359.592,"end":379.302,"text":"那麼不管是之前找雅雅的事情然後或者是現在要求所有的93年之前取得身份證這些陸配一定要檢附儲戶證明這些其實說實在話到底現在陸委會你們是有查到多少人你們自己可以依職權調查你們是有查到多少陸配或是陸配的子女在大陸有戶籍的"},{"start":389.813,"end":413.86,"text":"當然有啊有 有多少當然有有多少你們自己有依職權去調查嗎我們這幾年調查這幾年依法取消台灣身份的有676人這幾年有676人所以這是你們自己依法去調查還是人家檢舉的檢舉調查都有檢舉調查你們現在是透過什麼樣的管道去調查你們可以知道可以掌握到這些陸配在大陸有沒有戶籍嗎譬如說"},{"start":422.363,"end":440.625,"text":"我舉個例子他可能他他號稱自己沒有大陸的身份但是他可能他去出入出國或者是這個他就不小心用了他自己的護照那這種狀況被我們察覺那他就會被我們取消台灣的身份"},{"start":441.161,"end":449.667,"text":"是 所以代表說其實陸委會不是沒有能力可以或是移民署不是沒有能力可以去查那麼你們就可以依職權去調查那麼去了解到底陸配他在對岸有沒有戶籍可是你們現在呢卻這個採取了一個就是把所有的人搞得雞飛狗跳人仰馬翻然後非得要人家去拿著護照去取得這儲戶證明我認為這樣子的方法其實是極為不妥的"},{"start":471.261,"end":477.463,"text":"那麼我要講的就是說在第十七條裡面的規定是所有的大陸地區的人民他要取得中華民國身份證他可能是依據的第十七條既然依據第十七條他已經取得了他當然就是我們這裡講的這個這個就視為是大陸台灣地區人民所以如果說今天要依據第九之一條裡面去要求他們要檢附這些儲戶證明你留任上官是全台灣的人民你都要發這個通知啊那你為什麼要特別去針對他們更何況我現在要講的"},{"start":501.189,"end":518.939,"text":"就是移民署怠惰如果說93年這個法規就已經通過了如果你們當時就認為說必須要求這些大陸地區已經取得身份證的陸配必須要檢附儲戶證明20年來為什麼你們都不作為老實講這個事情我們也很困惑因為這20年來有藍有綠都輪流執政過"},{"start":530.481,"end":546.991,"text":"所以麥欽德上任之後特別在意這個事情特別讓人說我們現在台灣裡面都充斥著匪諜是不是委員我跟妳報告一下如果根據九字一條今天如果任何人檢舉某一個陸配"},{"start":548.387,"end":570.924,"text":"他沒有繳交的話那麼我們根據九十一條就是可以直接把他除去台灣的身份的那我們之所以沒這麼做而現在採取說是只有陸配嗎你的話基本上就不合邏輯我只是舉例啦我只是舉例如果說有任何人截取今天台灣人在大陸有戶籍有護照你就不要特別去針對我們前一陣子就處理了好幾個嘛"},{"start":572.225,"end":593.564,"text":"那現在我跟委員報告就是說如果今天有人檢舉某一個人他在大陸確實有身份那我們就是可以根據九之一條然後直接把他除掉除掉台灣身份那我們之所以不這麼做而採取現在的先發通知請你回去拿文件的做法就是已經有相當的考慮了"},{"start":594.464,"end":613.5,"text":"副主委我要這樣想一下在我們的行政程序法裡面有些規定我想不知道是陸委會不知道還是移民署不知道雖然說在第95條之3裡面有講兩岸地區的人民往來有關事務是不適用行政程序法的規定可是我要特別提醒你們"},{"start":614.361,"end":626.717,"text":"在立法理由裡面當時講得很清楚 是不適用行政程序法的程序規定實體規定還是要適用的所以在這裡我要告訴你們 我給你們上點課行政程序法裡面有什麼"},{"start":628.223,"end":645.763,"text":"這些重要的基本原則行政行為要受法律及一般法律的拘束要符合比例原則要依行誠實信用的方法為之就是要符合誠信原則要保護人民的正當合理信賴同時也要去注意當事人有利不利的情形"},{"start":647.145,"end":672.851,"text":"因此行政程序法裡面也有特別講到就算是你們今天認為沒有補件的路配當時核給他們身份證可能是有違法的行政處分但是違法行政處分的撤銷也是有期間的限制你兩年之內不作為撤銷權可能就過了"},{"start":673.806,"end":681.393,"text":"報告委員他這邊是知有撤銷原因實就是說行政機關知道行政機關知道兩年裡面行政法上面不見得說是沒有適用權力失效的法例你行政機關你怠惰二十年你不去追你突然之間告訴大家講說那你全部的人都要撿付儲戶證明"},{"start":698.627,"end":720.94,"text":"那你今天應該要求全台灣的人啊都到大陸那裡去申請個儲戶證明去證明自己說沒有這個證明沒有這個大陸的戶籍我覺得你們的邏輯不對你們今天基本上就是沒有把陸配當成台灣人我覺得這就是你們最大的問題你們的上位概念你們的想法就是根本不把長期在台灣居住"},{"start":722.421,"end":744.501,"text":"愛護台灣的這群陸配當成是我們自己的自己人所以從一根本你們就認為他們就是有問題所以20年了30年了你還是對他不認同啊不就是這樣的嗎所以我要講就是基於誠信原則法的安定性原則我基本上我非常"},{"start":747.325,"end":754.992,"text":"我基本上是認為今天移民署跟陸委會你們就是權力濫用你們標準的權力濫用"},{"start":759.298,"end":782.53,"text":"有很多的措施你們可以是採取更緩和的手段去進行的包含雅雅的事件我基本上我並不是認為說今天雅雅的言論這個主張無統這樣的言論是對的即便是他這樣言論自由我都認為應該要有所限制問題是你行政機關你對待像這樣子的案子你有符合比例原則嗎"},{"start":784.687,"end":807.759,"text":"你們有太多的措施你們可以要求他的影片下架可以給他警告更何況大家看在我們的兩岸人民關係條例第14條第二項裡面也有講你要驅逐出境你要撤銷他的居留許可你要考慮到他在台灣有沒有未成年子女有沒有難以回復的損害"},{"start":809.778,"end":830.169,"text":"委員這個行政法院已經有判決行政機關應該開始在做這樣子的一個決定的時候你們就是濫用行政權我現在很遺憾就是這個不管是雅雅還有歐桂枝的事件也是一樣的我想請教一下教育部請問一下"},{"start":839.642,"end":861.072,"text":"老師或是像我們講的一般的這個大學教授學者們到底可不可以接受陸媒的採訪有沒有違法當然是沒有違法接受陸媒採訪沒有違法沒有違法要看情況他的言論內容要看言論內容所以呢這個從您剛剛的回覆"},{"start":863.058,"end":871.125,"text":"讓我就感受到就是如果說上陸媒的節目去批評賴清德批評賴政府批評賴17條這樣的言論就不行這樣子就是違法是嗎那是他的言論自由是你說是誰的言論自由"},{"start":877.23,"end":899.244,"text":"那是他個人的言論自由但他的行為他作為一個老師他另外有一些專業的倫理必須去守他有沒有遵守教育基本法這是你們自己教育部寫的說這個是教師法第32條嚴守職分本於良知發揚世道及專業精神請問一下以歐貴貞老師的事情你告訴我他有違反他的職守嗎"},{"start":900.605,"end":920.395,"text":"這是提醒他他沒有本於良知嗎我想北玉女他們本身學校現在也對說這個他接受這個中共的官媒的訪問他認為不合宜所以我現在不是問北玉女北玉女的做法她是這個也有這個明顯的違法我現在是問你教育部的立場你認為歐慧珍的老師的這樣子的立場歐老師的言論自由沒有問題有違反師道嗎有違反專業精神嗎就見仁見智吧"},{"start":928.038,"end":955.105,"text":"我想台灣就是有言論自由所以他的言論自由是被保障的但是他的言論內容被批評我們也必須去保障可以批評的人是那既然如此那你教育部幹嘛還要台北市教育局去處理歐貴茲的事情不是不是是因為我們有就是台灣是言論自由的地方所以也有我們收到13封的檢舉信認為他這樣違反教育中立所以我們請"},{"start":956.505,"end":983.697,"text":"本於這個職權我們請地方政府去了解有沒有那我想這種這種這種說行政調查是所以最後我要問一下我最後再請教次長的就是簡單來說現在老師大學教授學者接受陸媒採訪沒有問題不違法沒有法律去禁止沒有法律禁止沒有問題沒有違法那如果說在陸媒"},{"start":985.718,"end":1010.92,"text":"接受陸媒的採訪 批評爛17條有沒有違法 受不受到言論自由的保障是啊 受啊受到言論自由的保障我認為是受 但是我就說他的言行 他的行為作為一個老師 他適不適合去講這樣的內容我作為一個法律學者見仁見智吧或是其他 我們現在有很多的法律 政治 社會 經濟各方面的學者"},{"start":1012.361,"end":1034.873,"text":"這個基本上對於賴十七條都很有意見的是啊我們在台灣可以大大方方的講這有沒有違反我們的教育所以我說言論自由上是保障的他的問題在於言論內容上引起社會上不同的反應正因為台灣是言論自由的國家所以有不同的反應也有支持也有反對那教育是本與中立那我們提醒他"},{"start":1035.493,"end":1049.747,"text":"本於中立的意思不就是在課堂上我盡量維持中立我要講有人支持賴十七條有人批評賴十七條這叫教育中立對不對我在課堂上面維持這樣子的中立性但是在課堂之後"},{"start":1051.462,"end":1069.934,"text":"在其他的媒體投書新聞投書批評賴17條不行嗎所以我今天就是要得到次長您剛剛的說法我講的是說言論自由是被保障的但是言論內容引起爭議引起各方的批評證明台灣是言論自由的國家如果說這樣的言論"},{"start":1073.476,"end":1075.339,"text":"引起了社會的討論社會的這個批評那麼因此教育部就要去干預我想歐老師他也有那個心胸去接受各界的批評因為你講這種高度爭議的政治性言論"},{"start":1087.984,"end":1095.349,"text":"一定會引起台灣各界的一些不同的反應這是叫高度政治性言論嗎我覺得基本上我希望部長你可以介紹你在中共的官媒去批評台灣的元首的這個國安政策當然是高度政治性言論所以賴清德是不能被批評的當然可以我剛才講說可以啊所以呢我在台灣的媒體上面批評跟我在大陸的媒體上面批評這有什麼差別"},{"start":1108.939,"end":1113.383,"text":"不是當然是可以批評啦委員我剛才一直強調在台灣的話就被認為是這個是不可以我們就是要被打壓不是委員我剛才提過嘛就是說在台灣正是因為言論自由所以對於歐老師的言論內容批評也有很多不同的看法那我們本部是收到了13封"},{"start":1128.695,"end":1131.238,"text":"這個檢舉性所以我們請地方政府去了解這個過程裡面完全是基於行政中立的作為跟了解自由是被保障的是內容批評我今天至少質詢的部分我可以得到次長一個肯定的答案"},{"start":1145.194,"end":1149.958,"text":"就是呢在台灣的老師教授學者們接受大陸媒體的這個採訪違法同時呢如果在大陸媒體上面批評現在賴政府的作為批評賴清德也不違法因為這都是受到言論自由的保障好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":651,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時22分）謝謝主席，首先請陸委會和移民署，梁副主委及陳副署長。"],["主席：陸委會、移民署。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副主委好，還有副署長好。從昨天到今天在整個新聞上面，還有包含本席也收到很多民眾打電話來抱怨，陸委會跟移民署發了通知書，要求這些陸配他們要檢附在大陸的除戶證明，這裡你們寫的法令依據是兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一及第十七條第五項第三款的規定，我首先想請教移民署，你們這次發出去多少份通知書？"],["陳副署長建成：報告委員，我們這次共發了一萬多份。"],["翁委員曉玲：多少？"],["陳副署長建成：一萬多份。"],["翁委員曉玲：一萬多少份？"],["陳副署長建成：一萬兩千多份。"],["翁委員曉玲：一萬兩千多份，那麼主要發出去的對象是民國93年之前取得身分證的嗎？還是有哪些人？"],["陳副署長建成：我們有包括兩岸人民關係條例93年3月1日修正施行以後，在這之前取得身分的陸配必須在6個月之內繳附除籍證明，這是第一個。第二個，從93年之後，因為疫情的關係，我們有到最近都還沒有繳交除籍證明文件的這些陸配……"],["翁委員曉玲：了解，所以簡單來說就是有一批人是民國93年之前就已經取得身分證的，然後還有另外一群是在近期疫情期間取得身分證的。"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想請問一下，在93年之前取得身分證的，當時應該是依據舊法，因為兩岸人民關係條例是在民國92年年底的時候修法，然後施行是從93年開始施行，所以你們現在講的這個依據，是依據第九條之一，然後要求93年之前取得身分證的陸配必須要再補繳這個證件，我想請教的就是，第九條之一的規定，它的規範對象是包含哪些人？"],["陳副署長建成：所有大陸來臺取得定居的這些陸配。"],["翁委員曉玲：那所以呢？如果我們臺灣地區的人民，我們臺灣人在大陸那裡有設戶籍呢？93年之前有設戶籍的呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，這一條的意思就是所有臺灣地區人民都不能夠在大陸設籍，如果你在大陸設籍，你就要在六個月之內取消那邊的身分，放棄原籍證明……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以這邊所謂的「臺灣地區人民」就是在那個時候擁有臺灣身分證的人，就是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。所以也就是說第九條之一的規定，基本上它的規範對象是全臺灣人，對不對？在臺灣地區的全中華民國國民，只要是……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就是在那個時候有身分證的人。對。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為條文的第一項就有講，不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照，所以也就是說在93年的時候，這一條第九條之一的規定是所有的臺灣人，包含我們現在所有的人，都不可以在大陸設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照。我現在要質疑的就是，陸委會如果你今天質疑說，現在臺灣人可能有些人在大陸地區有護照或是有戶籍，你們為什麼不全面清查？為什麼只挑93年之前已經取得中華民國身分證，他理論上就已經是中華民國國民了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告，如果他是陸配，他在93年之前取得臺灣的身分證，但如果他也沒有交撤銷對面戶籍的證明的話，那我們肯定他就有這一條的適用，肯定適用這一條。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，副主委，我想請教一下，93年之前當時這群陸配申請身分證，那時候的法規裡面有要求他們要附除戶證明嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：93年以前沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有？可是據我了解，本席這邊有接到民眾陳情，那時候其實他們也有檢附一些除戶證明，好像當時是交到另外不同的機關裡面去，更何況現在已經事隔這麼多年，看起來這次陸委會其實就是特別針對陸配，是你們推定他們這些人在大陸都有戶籍或是護照嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該這樣講，如果他是陸配，他在大陸一定有戶籍，那他嫁來臺灣，他拿到身分，如果他沒有繳交撤銷大陸戶籍的證明的話……"],["翁委員曉玲：您這句話好像太武斷了……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：除非他在大陸是無戶籍國民，或者是說因為他可能……"],["翁委員曉玲：太武斷了，因為當時他們可能來臺灣的時候就已經除戶了，已經放棄戶籍，事隔這麼多年、二十幾年。我想再請問的就是，因為從最近陸委會的種種措施來看，基本上就是找陸配麻煩，不管是……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：絕對沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：不管是之前亞亞的事情，或者是現在要求所有93年之前取得身分證的這些陸配一定要檢附除戶證明，這些說實在話，到底現在陸委會你們查到多少人？你們自己可以依職權調查，你們是有查到多少陸配或是陸配的子女在大陸有戶籍的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然有啊。"],["翁委員曉玲：有多少？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然有。"],["翁委員曉玲：有多少？你們有依職權去調查嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們這幾年依法取消臺灣身分的有676人，這幾年有676人。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這是你們自己依法去調查，還是人家檢舉的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：檢舉、調查都有。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們現在是透過什麼樣的管道去調查？你們可以掌握到這些陸配在大陸有沒有戶籍嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我舉個例子，可能他號稱自己沒有大陸的身分，但是可能他入出國時就不小心用了他自己的護照，這種狀況被我們察覺，他就會被我們取消臺灣的身分。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以代表其實陸委會不是沒有能力，或是移民署不是沒有能力去查，你們可以依職權去調查，了解到底陸配在對岸有沒有戶籍，可是你們現在卻採取一個把所有人搞得雞飛狗跳、人仰馬翻的方法，然後非得要人家去取得除戶證明，我認為這樣子的方法是極為不妥的。我要講的就是，第十七條裡面的規定是，所有大陸地區的人民要取得中華民國身分證可能是依據第十七條，既然依據第十七條他已經取得了，他當然就是我們這裡講的──視為是臺灣地區人民，所以如果今天要依據第九之一條去要求他們檢附除戶證明，理論上你們應該是全臺灣的人民都要發這個通知，為什麼要特別去針對他們？更何況我現在要講的就是移民署怠惰，如果93年這個法規就已經通過了，如果你們當時就認為，必須要求這些大陸地區已經取得身分證的陸配檢附除戶證明，為什麼你們20年來都不作為？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：老實講這個事情我們也很困惑，因為這20年來藍綠都輪流執政過，那為什麼……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以只有賴清德上任之後特別在意這個事情，特別認為現在我們臺灣裡面都充斥著匪諜，是不是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是，委員，我跟你報告一下，如果根據第九條之一，今天如果任何人檢舉某一個陸配沒有繳交的話，那麼我們根據第九條之一就可以直接把他除去臺灣身分的。我們之所以沒這麼做，而現在採取說……"],["翁委員曉玲：是只有陸配嗎？您的話基本上就不合邏輯……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我只是舉例，我只是舉例……"],["翁委員曉玲：對不對？如果說有任何人檢舉今天臺灣人在大陸有戶籍、有護照……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯、沒有錯，我們前幾……"],["翁委員曉玲：對不對？你就不要特別去針對……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們前一陣子就處理了好幾個嘛。現在我跟委員報告的就是說，如果今天有人檢舉某一個人他在大陸確實有身分，我們就可以根據第九條之一直接把他除掉臺灣身分，我們之所以不這麼做，而採取現在的先發通知請你回去拿文件的作法，就是已經有相當的考慮了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，副主委，我還是要再講一下，在我們的行政程序法裡面，有些規定不知道是陸委會還是移民署，雖然說在第九十五條之三裡面有講，兩岸地區人民往來有關事務不適用行政程序法的規定，可是我要特別提醒你們，當時在立法理由裡面講得很清楚，是不適用行政程序法的程序規定，實體規定還是要適用的。所以在這裡我要告訴你們，我要給你們上點課，行政程序法裡面有什麼？有這些重要的基本原則，包括行政行為要受法律及一般法律的拘束；要符合比例原則；要依誠實信用的方法為之，就是要符合誠信原則；要保護人民的正當合理之信賴；同時也要去注意當事人有利不利的情形。因此，行政程序法裡面也有特別講到，就算是你們今天認為沒有補件的陸配，當時核給他們身分證可能是違法的行政處分，但是違法行政處分的撤銷也有除斥期間的限制，你兩年之內不作為，這個撤銷權可能就過了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，它這邊是「知有撤銷原因時」，就是說行政機關知道後兩年內。"],["翁委員曉玲：這就是我講的權利失效的原理，請你們要記在心裡面，行政法上面不見得沒有適用權利失效的法理，行政機關怠惰20年不去追，突然之間告訴大家說全部的人都要檢附除戶證明，那你今天應該要求全臺灣的人都到大陸那裡去申請除戶證明，去證明自己沒有大陸的戶籍。我覺得你們的邏輯不對，你們今天基本上就是沒有把陸配當成臺灣人，我覺得這就是你們最大的問題，你們的上位概念，你們的想法就是根本不把長期在臺灣居住、愛護臺灣的這群陸配當成是我們自己人，所以你們從根本就認為他們就是有問題。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，因為陸配經過身分轉換，所以在我們這邊都會有紀錄。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以20年了、30年了，你還是對他不認同啊！不就是這樣嗎？所以我要講的是，基於誠信原則、法的安定性原則，基本上我認為今天移民署跟陸委會就是權力濫用，你們是標準的權力濫用！有很多的措施你們可以採取更緩和的手段去進行，包含亞亞事件，基本上我並不是認為今天亞亞的言論、主張武統這樣的言論是對的，即便是言論自由，我都認為應該要有所限制，問題是行政機關對待這樣的案子有符合比例原則嗎？你們有太多的措施，你們可以要求他的影片下架，可以給他警告。更何況大家可以看到，我們兩岸人民關係條例第十四條第二項裡面有講，你要驅逐出境、要撤銷他的居留許可，你也要考慮到他在臺灣有沒有未成年子女，有沒有造成難以回復的損害。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，行政法院已經有判決。"],["翁委員曉玲：不要說行政法院，行政機關開始在做這樣決定的時候，你們就是濫用行政權！現在很遺憾的是，不管是亞亞，還有區桂芝事件也是一樣，我想請教一下教育部，請問一下，老師或是我們講的一般的大學教授、學者們到底可不可以接受陸媒採訪？有沒有違法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然是沒有違法。"],["翁委員曉玲：接受陸媒採訪沒有違法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有違法，要看情況，看他的言論內容。"],["翁委員曉玲：要看言論內容，所以從您剛剛的回復讓我感受到，如果上陸媒的節目去批評賴清德、批評賴政府、批評賴17條，這樣的言論就不行？這樣子就是違法，是嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，那是他的言論自由。"],["翁委員曉玲：你說是誰的言論自由？區桂芝老師的言論自由？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，那是他個人的言論自由，但他的行為，他作為一個老師，他另外有一些專業倫理必須遵守，他有沒有遵守教育基本法？"],["翁委員曉玲：這是你們自己教育部寫的，說這個是教師法第三十二條，嚴守職分，本於良知，發揚師道及專業精神。請問一下，以區桂芝老師的事情來看，你告訴我，他有違反他的職守嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是提醒他。"],["翁委員曉玲：他沒有本於良知嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想北一女本身現在對他接受中共官媒的訪問是認為不合宜，所以也……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在不是問北一女，北一女的作法也有明顯違法，我現在是問教育部的立場。"],["張廖次長萬堅：教育部的立場就是說……"],["翁委員曉玲：你認為區桂芝老師這樣子的作法……"],["張廖次長萬堅：區老師的言論自由沒有問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：有違反師道嗎？有違反專業精神嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這見仁見智吧！我想臺灣就是有言論自由，所以他的言論自由是被保障的，但是他的言論內容被批評，我們也必須去保障可以批評的人。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，既然如此……"],["張廖次長萬堅：是吧！這是言論自由。"],["翁委員曉玲：那教育部幹嘛還要叫臺北市教育局去處理區桂芝的事情？"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是、不是，因為臺灣是言論自由的地方，我們收到13封檢舉信，認為他這樣違反教育中立，所以我們本於職權請地方政府去了解有沒有，我想這種做行政調查是……"],["翁委員曉玲：我最後再請教次長，簡單來說，現在老師、大學教授、學者接受陸媒採訪沒有問題？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，沒有法律去禁止啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：好，沒有法律禁止。"],["張廖次長萬堅：要看他的言論內容是不是傷及臺灣的……"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有問題、沒有違法，如果在接受陸媒採訪時批評賴17條有沒有違法？受不受到言論自由的保障？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是啊！受啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：受到言論自由的保障？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我認為是受到保障，但是他的言行、他的行為，作為一個老師，他適不適合去講這樣的內容？是不是……"],["翁委員曉玲：我作為一個法律學者……"],["張廖次長萬堅：見仁見智吧！"],["翁委員曉玲：我們現在有很多法律、政治、社會、經濟各方面的學者，基本上對於賴17條都很有意見。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：我們在臺灣可以大大方方的講，這有沒有違反……"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我說言論自由上是保障的。"],["翁委員曉玲：違反我的職守嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：他的問題在於言論內容引起社會上不同的反應，正因為臺灣是言論自由的國家，所以有不同的反應，有支持也有反對，教育是本於中立，那我們提醒他……"],["翁委員曉玲：教育本於中立的意思不就是在課堂上我儘量維持中立，我要講有人支持賴17條，有人批評賴17條，這叫教育中立，對不對？我在課堂上面維持這樣的中立性，但是在課堂之後，在其他媒體投書、新聞投書批評賴17條不行嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是言論自由，OK，這是言論自由。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我今天就是要得到次長您剛剛的說法，基本上我認為……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我講的是說，言論自由是被保障的，但是言論內容引起爭議，引起各方的批評，證明臺灣是言論自由的國家。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以教育部就應該去干預嗎？如果這樣的言論引起了社會的討論、社會的批評，因此教育部就要去干預嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想區老師也有那個心胸去接受各界的批評。"],["翁委員曉玲：就要去要求老師不可以去發表嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為你講這種有高度爭議的政治性言論一定會引起臺灣各界一些不同的反應。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是叫高度政治性言論嗎？我覺得基本上希望次長可以……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我覺得在中共的官媒去批評臺灣元首的國安政策，當然是高度政治性。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以賴清德是不能被批評的？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然可以，我剛才講說可以啊！但是被批評……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我在臺灣的媒體上面批評跟我在大陸的媒體上面批評有什麼差別？"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，當然是可以批評啦！委員，我剛才一直強調說……"],["翁委員曉玲：在大陸媒體上批評就被認為這個是統戰，在臺灣就被認為是不可以，就要被打壓，是不是？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我剛才提過，就是說在臺灣正是因為言論自由，所以對於區老師的言論內容、批評也有很多不同的看法，本部收到13封檢舉信，所以我們請地方政府去了解，這個過程裡面完全是基於行政中立的作為跟了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，總之，我現在……"],["張廖次長萬堅：自由是被保障的，內容、批評也是被……"],["翁委員曉玲：今天至少在質詢的部分可以得到次長一個肯定的答案，就是在臺灣的老師、教授、學者們接受大陸媒體採訪不違法……"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是我要提醒翁委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：同時，如果在大陸媒體上面批評現在賴政府的作為，批評賴清德也不違法，因為這都是受到言論自由的保障。以上，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是言行自己要負責啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們先處理會議時間，上午的會議時間，我們持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接著我們請陳委員培瑜進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"159971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce13a394f60b730a32a0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6be3fcf17fe098d76155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:26:54 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請劉主委跟郭部長劉主委 郭部長我先請教一下劉主委主委我先請教一下因為最近這個包括川普美國川普這邊提高關稅的部分那我們原先預估我們今年的經濟成長率其實可以超過3那這個會不會受到影響以現在這樣的狀況現在來評估的話會受到影響會受到影響 可能保3會有問題嗎"},{"start":31.452,"end":58.82,"text":"如果照現在這樣狀況的話 對 寶山會有問題寶山會有問題 但是我們還是希望透過一些措施 刺激國內的一方面跟美國做一些談判 一方面投入8811 甚至未來更多的也希望 寶山應該還是我們的目標嘛我們還是要面對目標去努力啦朝這個方向啦 但是現在看來是 如果照這樣看來是一個艱鉅的挑戰了是的 好了解 那個主委先請問 那我問一下部長好了 部長"},{"start":61.383,"end":75.976,"text":"我問一下今天早上大家都在關心這個台積電部分因為AI晶片的部分有流入到華為那很多人在關切恐怕會被開罰10億美元部長有這樣的事嗎報告委員我想這個對這個問題我想"},{"start":81.94,"end":99.934,"text":"台積電應該是台積電它是一個遵法 鎖法的公司對這樣的一個傳聞基本上我們經濟部是不予評論這件事情但是我們相信經濟部有掌握到這件事情嗎"},{"start":100.694,"end":123.588,"text":"經濟部因為沒有收到這方面的報告所以沒有得到任何這樣的訊息沒有收到這樣的報告我也認為以台積電這麼大的一個國際級的公司他應該很謹慎小心他也很清楚美國的底線他也很知道這些晶片流入華為的嚴重性我們認為台積電會犯下這樣的錯誤所以我認為我對這樣的訊息其實我是懷疑的同時間我對台積電是有信心的對這個傳聞的訊息未經證實我們不予評論"},{"start":127.892,"end":128.817,"text":"不予評論 不過部長應該對台積電有信心吧"},{"start":131.567,"end":158.909,"text":"台積電我們當然是非常有信心對手法對清楚尊規然後對各地各國的法令都非常的清楚而且遵守的一個廠商我相信他們不會輕忽這件事情我也不認為他們會這麼的輕忽讓這個晶片流到華為去然後犯下了美國這麼在乎這件事情是的所以我認為我對台積電是有信心部長應該對台積電有信心吧"},{"start":159.469,"end":177.319,"text":"非常有信心 非常有信心 很好再來我請教一下 現在也有在提到說川普說如果台積電威脅台積電如果不到美國設廠的話 課徵百分之百的關稅部長我們怎麼 這是川普所講的 但未來我們會做很多的一些談判的過程這個我們應該會來協助溝通跟協助這個台積電吧"},{"start":183.922,"end":189.904,"text":"我想我們這個台積電他對他所承諾的事情我們相信台積電一定會做到"},{"start":192.108,"end":218.369,"text":"對 所以如果有這樣的百分之百的關稅這對台積電來說我講的是接下來我們會有很多的談判的小組會去跟美國做溝通我們希望讓美國讓川普這邊更知道怎麼樣讓台灣跟美國之間創造一個好的一個環境而不是造成更大的一些來 部長請說是 報告委員我想大家都非常清楚"},{"start":219.349,"end":236.725,"text":"台灣跟美國之間的科技是互補的也就是說一個產品能夠在市場上面賣得很好美國只扮演研究的角色台灣是扮演發展跟製造"},{"start":238.373,"end":255.581,"text":"的這個角色所以這個是完全互補也就是台灣有台灣的優勢啦台灣的不管我們的人才不管我們的各方面我們有很多我們的優勢這個部分其實未來透過談判小組我們希望讓川普讓美國這邊更清楚怎麼樣達到一個雙贏的目的而能夠而不是讓"},{"start":257.791,"end":282.251,"text":"我希望這一塊未來談判小組持續來努力是 他們會把握到接下來我問一下談判小組接下來會來跟美國這邊溝通嗎我們的順位應該滿前面的嘛因為很多國家都要跟美國來做溝通我想我們的順位應該在很前面對 因為我們跟美國的貿易這個數字是相當大的嘛而且我相信美國也很在乎不過從我們沒有被列入到這個十大的這個應該是美國對我們之間還算是有一定的信心"},{"start":284.056,"end":307.639,"text":"我們跟美國一直維持良好的溝通所以在這一方面我們要傳達國人的這個想法或者是談判代表需要能夠提早跟美國進入談判的這個過程我想美國他一個國家這些人他要對五六十個國家甚至七八十個所以我們的順序應該前面也很重要順序一定是在前面"},{"start":308.28,"end":320.148,"text":"那我問一下這個談判小組裡面部長會參與進去嗎還是我們經濟部的哪些人會參與進來談判小組的組成包括前往美國溝通部長你會去嗎"},{"start":322.315,"end":345.04,"text":"我到目前是沒有受到這樣的一個命令但是部長也會做準備啦反正我想部長、次長包括各相關的因為經濟部是一個重要的我們是一個團隊啦那有必要我們那個角色扮演我想我們都會善盡自己的職責不過部長跟次長跟經濟部團隊都已經做好萬全的準備了嘛我們在提供訊息方面我們確實是做好萬全準備"},{"start":345.74,"end":367.841,"text":"那另外賴總統其實也提到了除了從零關稅談起以外其他也提到了包括對於軍事的採購甚至投資美國我想這個都是啦減少美國的貿易赤字減少他們利差我想這也是一個努力的方向創造多元的方向那我們對於美國的採購的天然氣這個部分會持續來進行嗎"},{"start":369.876,"end":387.607,"text":"這個是項目之一啦項目之一啦那其他的部分呢包括像農產品的部分也會持續來加強做採購嗎我們對可以採購的部分我們當然是加強但是以國內的產業不受影響的前提作為我們這個努力的方向"},{"start":388.327,"end":411.379,"text":"這個當然是必然的啦 盡量減緩對於國內產業但是現在看來有些一定會受到衝擊那衝擊的時候也希望經濟部善加運用政府的這個880億甚至更多資源來協助他們度過這一波的難關是的我想這個部分我們會持續的來這是我們優先項目這個優先項目那部長 那之前他傳五月份要前往嘛這個就尊重行政院整體的規劃嘛 對不對"},{"start":413.266,"end":424.997,"text":"這個是行政院整理規劃整理規劃我們是動態的運作部長也做好準備就是說行政院請部長出發部長就前往這個都是大家我們是一個team一個團隊什麼時候上場"},{"start":428.56,"end":448.554,"text":"這個就是由這個總教練也就是說就像剛剛部長提到的不管是請你當先發當這個中繼甚至上最後的終結者這個我想行政院我們隨時都是準備的部長就做好你的角色嘛每一個部長次長各單位的都扮演好每個角色都是一樣"},{"start":449.795,"end":474.332,"text":"好 謝謝 那再來我請教一下 有很多人說應該要投資中國這個時間點有些人士 國民黨某些人士說投資中國甚至於應該要對美國採取比較對抗的態度然後跟中國走比較近的路 部長同意這樣的看法嗎所有的輿論 所有的談話 我們都給予參考 尊重"},{"start":475.362,"end":491.958,"text":"尊重啊,那部長認同這樣的看法嗎?基本上因為我們跟美國其中有一個非常重要的就是紅色供應鏈必須要避開這是美國對我們的出國安全的一個非常重大的要求"},{"start":493.53,"end":512.246,"text":"那紅色供應鏈其實是我們現在必須要檢視的所以如果在這個前提之下你要然後再來就是美國從中國輸出到美國的關稅那麼高100多%我相信我們讓我們的這個業者去中國投資他可能也不願意吧"},{"start":514.544,"end":538.824,"text":"光一個民主的國家 光一個專制的國家裡面說 官制的國家很多已經受制於人所決定啦光這樣的一個經濟的體制上面來說 我當然會比較相信是一個民主的體制是一個比較安全的除川普以外 川普旁邊還有很多的國會嘛 他還有國會的機制還有人民的機制可以去處理這個當然是一個相對比較安全的 而且這裡是一個長期的民主夥伴關係嘛"},{"start":539.665,"end":568.147,"text":"那中共可能就是聽了就是習近平一個人的決定而已這是一個高風險更何況現在中共內部的問題也相當的多嘛所以我認為現在去講所謂的這個親中然後跟抗美這樣路線我是非常不認同的啦我認為其實當然我們也不會刻意去跟中共為敵啦但是對於你要去抗美親中這樣路線我想這個是完全背離台灣最大利益的我想應該比如說我們的國人業者也會對他的這個利益考量啦"},{"start":569.048,"end":585.31,"text":"那我們基本上還是協助他能夠避開這個經營上面的這個風險這個是我們經濟部會做的事好最後一個因為扣件其實對於影響相當大我們的扣件有523因為受到衝擊我也希望"},{"start":586.352,"end":603.633,"text":"經濟部要來加重來協助來看怎麼來處理當然我們有競爭對手的關係也跟美國之間的關係但我希望這一塊經濟部能夠特別的去重視特別擴建都在高雄跟台南這邊南台灣那影響相當重大我們會每一家公司都去訪問我們也希望用專案的方式來協助這些擴建業者來渡過這一波難關好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時27分）謝謝主席，請劉主委跟郭部長。"],["主席：請劉主委、郭部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先請教劉主委。主委，因為最近美國川普提高關稅，我們原先預估今年的經濟成長率可以超過3%，以現在這樣的狀況來看，會不會受到影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在來評估的話，會受到影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：會受到影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果照現在這樣的狀況，保3會有問題嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，保3會有問題，但是我們還是希望透過一些措施刺激國內的經濟。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一方面跟美國做一些談判，一方面投入880億，甚至未來有更多的……保3應該還是我們的目標嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們還是要面對目標去努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還是朝這個方向啦，但是現在如果照這樣看來是一個艱巨的挑戰。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，了解，謝謝，主委先請回。我問一下部長好了，今天早上大家也都在關心，台積電的部分因為AI晶片有流入華為，很多人在關切恐怕會被開罰10億美元。部長，有這樣的事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對於這個問題，我想台積電是一個遵法、守法的公司。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。"],["郭部長智輝：對這樣的一個傳聞，基本上經濟部不予評論，但是我們相信台積電……"],["賴委員瑞隆：經濟部有掌握到這件事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為經濟部沒有收到這方面的報告……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以沒有得到任何這樣的訊息嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有收到這樣的報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也認為以台積電這麼大的一個國際級公司，應該很謹慎小心，它也很清楚美國的底線，也很知道這些晶片流入華為的嚴重性，我不認為台積電會犯下這樣的錯誤，所以我對於這樣的訊息其實是懷疑的，同時我對台積電是有信心的。"],["郭部長智輝：對於這個傳聞的訊息，未經證實，我們不予評論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不過部長應該對台積電有信心吧？"],["郭部長智輝：台積電我們當然是非常有信心啊！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對於守法，對於清楚……"],["郭部長智輝：它是一個遵法、遵規，然後對各地、各國的法令都非常清楚而且遵守的廠商。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我相信他們不會輕忽這件事情，我也不認為他們會這麼地輕忽讓晶片流到華為去，然後犯下了美國這麼在乎的這件事情。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我對台積電是有信心的，部長應該對台積電有信心吧？"],["郭部長智輝：非常有信心。"],["賴委員瑞隆：非常有信心嘛，很好！再來，我請教一下，現在也有提到川普威脅台積電如果不到美國設廠，要課徵百分之百的關稅。部長，這是川普所講的，當然未來我們會有很多談判的過程，我們應該會來溝通協助台積電吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我想台積電所承諾的事情，我們相信台積電一定會做到。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，如果有這樣百分之百的關稅，這對台積電來說……我講的是，接下來我們會有很多的談判小組去跟美國溝通嘛，我們也希望讓美國、讓川普更知道，怎麼樣讓臺灣跟美國之間創造一個好的環境，而不是造成更大的一些……部長，請說。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想大家都非常清楚，臺灣跟美國之間的科技是互補的，也就是說一個產品能夠在市場上面賣得很好，美國只扮演研究的角色，臺灣是扮演發展跟製造的角色，所以這個是完全互補。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也就是臺灣有臺灣的優勢啦……"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣的優勢在於……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不管我們的人才，不管我們的各方面，我們有很多我們的優勢，這個部分未來透過談判小組，我們也希望讓川普、讓美國更清楚，怎麼樣達到雙贏的目的，我希望這一塊未來談判小組持續努力啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，他們會把握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來，談判小組會跟美國溝通嘛，我們的順位應該滿前面的嘛？因為很多國家都要跟美國溝通嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我想，我們的順位應該在很前面。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我們跟美國的貿易這個數字是相當大的嘛，而且我相信美國也很在乎，不過從我們沒有被列入10項「不公平貿易行為」，應該是美國對我們還算是有一定的信心啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟美國一直維持良好的溝通啦，所以在這一方面，我們要傳達國人的想法，或者是談判代表希望能夠提早跟美國進入談判的過程。我想美國一個國家，這些人要對五、六十個國家，甚至七、八十個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以我們的順序應該很前面，也很重要啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們順序一定是在前面。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問一下，這個談判小組，部長會進去參與嗎？還是我們經濟部的哪些人會參與進來？談判小組的組成，包括前往美國的溝通，部長你會去嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我到目前是沒有收到這樣的命令。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是我想部長也會準備啦，部長、次長，包括各相關的，因為經濟部是相當重要的一個……"],["郭部長智輝：我們是一個團隊啦，我們的角色扮演，有必要我想我們都會善盡自己的職責。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長、次長跟經濟部團隊都已經做好萬全的準備了嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在提供訊息方面，確實是做好萬全的準備。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，賴總統其實也提到，除了從零關稅談起以外，其實他也提到包括對於軍事的採購，甚至投資美國，我想這個都能減少美國的貿易赤字，減少他們的逆差，這也是努力的一個方向，創造多贏的方向。我們對於美國採購天然氣這個部分會持續進行嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是項目之一啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：其他的部分呢？包括像農產品的部分也會持續加強採購嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對於可以採購的部分，我們當然是加強，但是會以國內產業不受影響的前提，作為我們努力的方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然這個是必然的啦！儘量減緩對於國內產業的影響，但是現在看來，有些一定會受到衝擊，而衝擊的時候，也希望經濟部善加運用政府的880億，甚至更多資源協助他們渡過這一波難關啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想這個部分我們會持續的……"],["郭部長智輝：這是我們的優先項目。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，之前還傳出5月份要前往……這個就尊重行政院整體的規劃嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是行政院整體規劃，我們是動態的運作……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長也做好準備嘛，行政院請部長出發，部長就前往……"],["郭部長智輝：我們大家是一個team，一個團隊，什麼時候上場，就是由總教練指揮。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就像剛剛部長提到的，不管是請你當先發，當中繼，甚至最後的終結者……"],["郭部長智輝：後援。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想行政院怎麼安排……"],["郭部長智輝：我們隨時都是準備的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長就做好你的角色嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：每一個部長、次長，各單位都扮演好每一個角色嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：都是一樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。再來我請教一下，有很多人說應該要投資中國，這個時間點，國民黨有些人士或深藍人士說要投資中國，甚至於應該要對美國採取比較對抗的態度，然後跟中國走比較近的路，部長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：所有的輿論、所有的談話，我們都參考、尊重。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那部長認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上，因為我們跟美國其中有一個非常重要的原則，就是紅色供應鏈必須要避開，這是美國對我們出口安全一個非常重大的要求，紅色供應鏈其實是我們現在必須要檢視的。如果在這個前提之下……再來，從中國輸出到美國的關稅那麼高，達百分之一百多，我相信讓我們的業者去中國投資，他可能也不願意吧！"],["賴委員瑞隆：我舉一個例子，一個民主國家跟一個專制的國家，專制的國家很多受制於人決定啦，光經濟體制上面來說，我當然會比較相信民主體制是比較安全的。除了川普以外，川普旁邊還有國會嘛，它還有國會的機制，還有人民的機制可以去處理，這個當然是相對比較安全的，而且也是一個長期的民主夥伴關係嘛！而中共可能就是聽習近平一個人的決定而已，這是高風險的，更何況現在中共內部的問題也相當多嘛！所以我認為現在去講所謂的親中跟抗美這樣的路線，我是非常不認同的。當然，我們也不會刻意去跟中共為敵啦，但是對於要去抗美親中這樣的路線，我想這個是完全背離臺灣最大利益的。部長應該不會這樣認為吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的國人、業者也會對他的利益考量啦，基本上我們還是協助他能夠避開經營上面的風險，這個是我們經濟部會做的事情。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後，關稅其實對於扣件影響相當大，我們的扣件輸美產值有523億會受到衝擊，我也希望經濟部要加重協助，看怎麼來處理。當然我們有競爭對手的關係，也有跟美國之間的關係，我希望這一塊經濟部能夠特別重視，特別的是扣件都在高雄跟臺南，對南臺灣影響相當重大。"],["郭部長智輝：我們每一家公司都會去訪談。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也希望用專案的方式協助這些扣件業者渡過這一波難關。好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。中午不休息，延長開會時間。","現在請下一位徐巧芯委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 沈委員好謝謝今天移民署有啦 順便問一下移民署移民署署長 謝謝"},{"start":24.571,"end":48.845,"text":"好 謝謝那這個我想先問一下移民署因為剛好我剛好才看到啦因為昨天在協調這個案件嘛那我還是想問一下就是說因為陸委會今天有在另外一邊也有在做這個相關的說明那現在因為這個2004年的這個修法它當時有這一個六個月的這樣的一個規定那因為現在呢畢竟就是說已經過了一段時間"},{"start":49.665,"end":73.072,"text":"那除了陸委會配套修法之外呢現在在法治上有沒有什麼要特別跟這個民眾說明這件事情首先說明一下就是說我們兩岸的這個人民的這個戶籍我們是單一戶籍製造就是說在台灣地區我們在台灣設有戶籍的國民不得在大陸地區來設有戶籍或領用護照"},{"start":73.792,"end":90.75,"text":"那麼這個案子是在兩岸條例是在九十三年的時候有做一個修正那當時就是修正就是說在九十三年以前的這個大陸地區人民必須在六個月內來當時一個溯起的規定"},{"start":94.013,"end":108.127,"text":"那這個我們這一次呢這個其實有關這個涉及的這些規定一直以來都是持續在執行那移民署在96年以後才成立"},{"start":110.229,"end":123.503,"text":"我們在去年10月是在清理就是說我們在清查的是疫情期間那麼延宕下來有些那麼一直我們都是寬延讓因為兩岸這個當時疫情期間那麼邊境"},{"start":128.327,"end":149.193,"text":"這個管制的關係所以沒有回去拿的某一支鹽那也是經過兩年的這個時間我們認為說應該也足夠了那交通也是恢復了很多那所以在去年10月開始就是從疫情期間我們開始來清查那93年以前呢我是想問說93年以前這個因為畢竟當時是六個月這樣的一個規定"},{"start":152.494,"end":172.59,"text":"其實那個時間已經過了所以這一次我們還是有考量到說即便是時間已經過了但是已經對於我們這個人民的這個身份的一個認定還是非常的關係重要所以我們這一次是通知說要補繳"},{"start":174.291,"end":196.91,"text":"所以也是給予一個三個月的一個時間因為畢竟對他們來講這個取得畢竟時間上都有點困難我知道陸委會有在想說有沒有一些配套的措施是這個部分我們也跟陸委會有在開會議就是說原則上我們通知補繳這個是法律的一個規定那如果我們這些"},{"start":199.512,"end":226.582,"text":"對象他在實際上實質上他有面臨到什麼樣的一個困難我們也願意來蒐集他們的意見那這個可能要盡快因為這個人數我看也不少所以可能這個要其實大部分的我們目前我們在台的這個兩岸婚姻的路易配偶是有36萬人那其中已經有涉及的是14萬人"},{"start":227.822,"end":248.473,"text":"那我們現在清查出來的大概有1萬出頭的人是沒有講那這個就盡快啦因為我昨天有協調昨天協調之後有時候要配套方案因為我覺得這個畢竟也是涉及到第一個他如果回去有一些人是有危險的是這些我們會做考慮跟委員報告那這個署長在那我們在之後的時候等陸委會這邊的結論出來之後那我再來問"},{"start":249.233,"end":277.754,"text":"是是是好 謝謝你的說明好 謝謝我那我問一下這個局長那局長因為這個最近剛好有這一個軍演那所以軍演這邊呢其實少不了一些輿論上的一些操作那我現在當然比較好奇的事情就是說我知道今天大家都比較關心共諜我現在大概都已經問完了我現在比較關心的反而是這一件就是說第一個他們的文宣攻勢當然還是很多這個網路攻擊在這次的夜報其實有特別提到那因為他們這一次也有做出相關的影片"},{"start":278.374,"end":290.997,"text":"那這個影片裡面所用的一些用語其實我覺得跟之前也有也不太相同啦那關於這一件事情不管是他們對我們的軍人的心戰還是輿論戰這一次軍演的部分有沒有什麼在之前有做了什麼應對"},{"start":292.485,"end":310.3,"text":"對 這一次的演習跟歷來的演習一樣一定都會配合到一些所謂的輿論戰還有爭議訊息的一個操作來加大可能對台灣的文攻武嚇的一個總體的一個成效那就在宣傳的部分可以看到它一些官宣的影音動畫"},{"start":311.181,"end":338.877,"text":"似乎這一次的推波的力度比過去來的更大那但就演習本身來講我們有注意到比較像是把例行的演習來做一個拼湊那讓例行的演習變成是一種有針對性對台灣的一個針對性的演習那這也是一個比較新的發展趨勢也就是說在軍事上有這樣的一個新的發展動態那在文宣的操作上影音的操作還有圖卡的操作似乎又是這一次演習一個蠻重要的一個心理戰的重點"},{"start":339.577,"end":360.047,"text":"對 因為我這次看軍事 它相關的一些補給啊什麼等等之類看起來沒有很多啦它就是為期 就不會太長的一個演戲但是因為它裡面呢 有特別強調這個所謂的台獨分子啦但它以前也會強調沒有錯那在這一次呢 在這個軍演之前呢看起來它們相關的一些粉專啊什麼等等之類的台灣的一些在地協力者啊"},{"start":360.407,"end":381.782,"text":"都已經特別的再度強調到底誰才是台獨份子嘛誰才應該被懲戒嘛然後又特別在軍演的時候呢用了這些政治性的語言說這個伊斯又是台獨份子又是死路一條啦那我覺得在今年他們因為他們在之前法律戰除了2758號決議之外我覺得他們在今年蠻重要的一點就是再度要把這一個框架"},{"start":382.282,"end":405.218,"text":"要說台灣內部才是有真正的敵人就是台獨份子才是造成這一個戰亂的根源看起來他們好像持續要操作這件事情那這件事情我覺得就是說以現在就是我剛剛這個在後面我先台訊我晚點再問就是說我看到有一些公開資料的一些運用譬如說ISP他們最近都會有一些公開資料的一些透明化"},{"start":405.698,"end":420.713,"text":"那像我這次看到夜報裡面其實就有一張很不錯的關於網攻的這個圖那于晴其實應該也于晴之前在國安局本來就會固定的一直公佈嘛有時候在夜報有時候是國安局自己這個在媒體上面就直接受訪的時候就會講出來那因為現在"},{"start":421.554,"end":446.983,"text":"國外在應對這些輿論戰的時候都有做一些圖像化這個圖像化其實不一定要叫國安局做他可能是外圍的智庫做但國安局這個資料越多越透明他們越能做做了之後就會有一種地圖然後會有時間序列發生了什麼事情他們又操作了什麼輿論其實因為人民在軍演的時候才注意到這個題目的時候要他跟他之前的事件連結沒有那麼容易所以希望國安局能夠再適度地釋出更多的相關的資料"},{"start":447.403,"end":469.833,"text":"那這樣可以讓大家對於軍演這件事情有更多的研判那因為時間的關係我再問一下海巡不好意思就是說我看到海巡這一次的這一個你好你好 這個因為我看到這個管主委他有提到就是說這一次的又有很多的一些不管是偷渡啊等等之類清廷啊等等的騷擾那這邊呢其實在每一次的聯合立見我們都可以看到相關的這個騷擾情形這邊有一個圖表"},{"start":472.614,"end":500.697,"text":"那這個呢也關係到就是之前我在質詢的時候有問過就是說這一次因為有拍到一些影像那這個是我們在去年質詢的時候呢就在內政委員會的時候就一直特別強調有影像其實能夠讓國人更認識這件事情那看起來這件事情持續有在進步所以我現在反而想我問兩件事情因為時間的關係第一個就是因為之前我知道他們都在講什麼密錄器那其實密錄器根本錄不遠嘛像這一次呢是因為距離很近所以才錄到這些相關的衝突"},{"start":501.798,"end":525.863,"text":"所以我想問一下關於尤其是在衝突的時候不管是從無人機的拍攝的角度還是說從我們自己的船隻的拍攝的角度因為中國現在開始會操作說這些都是台灣的船艦的問題一些民用船隻的問題我們現在在這邊相關的配置這些不管是監視攝影機等等之類不管是預算還是配置的這個速度現在如何這是第一個"},{"start":526.603,"end":547.14,"text":"那第二個呢 我就請署長一次回答就好第二個就是呢 我們現在我們看到下一個就是關於這個AIS我看到這一次其實在這個海底電纜的時候都有特別提到那我上次有提醒過就是說在海外有做了很多這種譬如說不同的船隻誰的AIS先有 誰的又沒有他是不是一組等等之類的他可以做一些AI的研判"},{"start":547.901,"end":566.372,"text":"海巡那時候說其實我們也是可以自己做那現在相關的這些不管是在預算上或者在技術上現在有沒有辦法做到這些事情就這兩個問題就好 謝謝這邊跟委員報告這樣有關那個金門事件以後我們所有的監視如影器包括艦船艇上面我們現在都已經做完備了"},{"start":567.132,"end":587.847,"text":"那特別跟委員報告我們在應對中國的不管是軍演不管是在金門或者是馬爾地區那我們的船艦距離大陸的船艦都非常近那我們最近的曾經到達將近不大一百公尺也就是貼著他們在拍所以我們拍出來效果是非常好的那也展現給國文那這一部分也非常有震撼力這邊特別跟委員報告"},{"start":588.527,"end":615.072,"text":"那另外有關航行在我們周邊的權益輪部分我們根據航港局提供的這個權益部分我們完全可以掌握在台灣周邊航行的相關權益輪那我們現在掌握的有96艘中資備檢權益輪那只要他一接近我們的這個臨海跟臨街區我們就會做監控然後請航港局以船級國管理方式先廣播那廣播不聽了我們會被船艦去登檢"},{"start":615.892,"end":630.352,"text":"那這個部分呢我們這個部分呢對於海面的目標我們是完全可以掌握的這邊特別跟我們報告好那現在齁就我最後一句就好了齁因為時間已經到了齁就是說因為畢竟現在我們有資料庫那有資料庫知道有哪些船隻剛剛講有九十幾艘嘛"},{"start":630.692,"end":642.358,"text":"那這個跟AI判斷又是另外一件事AI判斷的意思是說呢即使我們現在有資料庫這些資料庫的船隻跟別的船隻的互動比如說它的AIS這個關了這個馬上開它會不會是一組的就是說有這些判斷之後呢這個資料庫還有擴充的空間我指的是這件事情那因為時間的關係呢我就之後再繼續追蹤這件事謝謝主席謝謝局長跟兩位署長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時28分）謝謝主席，有請局長，還有請海巡署署長，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。今天移民署有來，順便問一下移民署，請移民署署長，謝謝。","謝謝。我想先問一下移民署，我剛好看到，因為昨天在協調這個案件，我還是想問一下，陸委會今天在另外一邊也有做相關的說明，因為2004年的修法有6個月這樣的規定，現在畢竟已經過了一段時間，除了陸委會配套修法之外，現在法制上有沒有什麼要特別跟民眾說明這件事情？"],["鐘署長景琨：首先說明一下，兩岸人民的戶籍是採單一戶籍，因此在臺灣設有戶籍的國民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用護照，兩岸條例在93年的時候有做一個修正，當時的修正就是，在93年以前的大陸地區人民必須在6個月內來補繳……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這是當時一個溯及的規定。"],["鐘署長景琨：當時一個溯及的規定。其實有關設籍的這些規定一直以來都是持續在執行，移民署在96年以後才成立，我們在去年10月清查的是疫情期間延宕下來，有些我們一直都是寬延，因為兩岸當時在疫情期間邊境管制的關係，所以沒有回去拿的我們一直延，但是經過兩年的時間，我們認為應該也足夠了，交通也是恢復了很多，所以在去年10月開始，就是從疫情期間我們開始來清查……"],["沈委員伯洋：93年以前的呢？我是想問93年以前的，因為畢竟當時是6個月這樣的規定。"],["鐘署長景琨：其實那個時間已經過了。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["鐘署長景琨：所以這一次我們還是有考量到，即便時間已經過了，但是對於人民身分的認定還是非常地關係重要，所以我們這一次是通知要補繳，也給予3個月的時間。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為對他們來講，這個取得畢竟時間上都有點困難，我知道陸委會有在想有沒有一些配套的措施。"],["鐘署長景琨：關於這個部分，我們也跟陸委會有在開會，原則上我們通知補繳是法律的規定，如果這些對象在實際上、實質上有面臨到什麼樣的困難，我們也願意來蒐集他們的意見，最後再來……"],["沈委員伯洋：這個可能要儘快，因為人數我看也不少，所以可能要……"],["鐘署長景琨：其實大部分的……目前在臺的兩岸婚姻陸籍配偶有36萬人，其中已經有設籍的是14萬人，我們現在清查出來的大概有1萬出頭的人是沒有繳。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，這個就儘快。"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：我昨天有協調，在昨天協調之後，有說要有配套方案，因為我覺得這個畢竟也涉及到，第一個，他們如果回去，有些人是有危險的……"],["鐘署長景琨：是，這些我們會做考慮，也跟委員報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：署長，我們等陸委會的結論出來之後我再來問。"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝你的說明。"],["鐘署長景琨：謝謝委員的垂詢。"],["沈委員伯洋：我問一下局長，局長，因為最近剛好有軍演，軍演其實少不了一些輿論上的操作，我現在當然比較好奇的事情是，我知道今天大家都比較關心共諜，我想大概都已經問完了，而我現在比較關心的反而是這一件，第一個，他們的文宣攻勢當然還是很多，網路攻擊在這次的業報其實有特別提到，因為他們這一次也有做出相關的影片，這個影片裡面所用的一些用語其實我覺得跟之前也不太相同。關於這一件事情，不管是他們對我們軍人的心戰還是輿論戰，針對這一次軍演的部分，在之前有做了什麼應對？"],["蔡局長明彥：這一次的演習跟歷來的演習一樣，一定都會配合到一些所謂的輿論戰還有爭議訊息的操作，來加大可能對臺灣文攻武嚇的總體成效。在宣傳的部分，可以看到他們一些官宣的影音動畫，似乎這一次的推播力度比過去來得更大，但就演習本身來講，我們有注意到比較像是把例行的演習來做一個拼湊，讓例行的演習變成是一種對臺灣針對性的演習，這也是一個比較新的發展趨勢。也就是說，在軍事上有這樣一個新的發展動態，在文宣的操作上，影音的操作還有圖卡的操作似乎又是這一次演習一個蠻重要的心理戰重點。"],["沈委員伯洋：我這次看軍事，它相關的一些補給等等之類的看起來沒有很多，就是為期不會太長的一個演習，但是因為它裡面有特別強調所謂的台獨分子，它以前也會強調沒有錯，但這一次在這個軍演之前，看起來他們相關的一些粉專等等之類的，臺灣的一些在地協力者都已經特別再度強調到底誰才是台獨分子、誰才應該被懲戒，然後又特別在軍演的時候用了這些政治性的語言，意思就是台獨分子就是死路一條。因為他們在之前，法律戰除了2758號決議之外，我覺得他們在今年蠻重要的一點就是再度要把這一個框架，要說臺灣內部才是有真正的敵人，也就是台獨分子才是造成戰亂的根源，看起來他們好像持續要操作這件事情。關於這件事情，我覺得以現在……海巡我晚點再問。","我看到有一些公開資料的運用，比如ASPI最近都會有一些公開資料的透明化，像我這次看到業報裡面其實就有一張很不錯，是關於網攻的這個圖，輿情之前在國安局本來就會固定一直公布，有時候在業報，有時候是國安局自己在媒體上面直接於受訪的時候講出來，因為現在國外在應對這些輿論戰的時候都有做一些圖像化，這個圖像化其實不一定要由國安局做，可能是由外圍的智庫做，但國安局的這個資料越多、越透明，他們越能做，做了之後就會有一種地圖，然後會有時間序列，像是發生了什麼事情、他們又操作了什麼輿論，因為人民在軍演的時候才注意到這個題目，若要跟之前的事件連結沒有那麼容易，所以希望國安局能夠再適度地釋出更多的相關資料，這樣可以讓大家對於軍演這件事情有更多的研判。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為時間的關係，我再問一下海巡，不好意思。"],["張署長忠龍：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：你好。關於海巡的部分，我看到管主委有提到，這一次又有很多偷渡之類或輕艇等等的騷擾，其實在每一次的聯合利劍我們都可以看到相關的騷擾情形，簡報這邊有一個圖表，這個也關係到……就是之前我在質詢的時候有問過，這一次因為有拍到一些影像，這個是我們去年在內政委員會質詢的時候就一直特別強調的，有影像其實能夠讓國人更認識這件事情，看起來這件事情持續有在進步。因為時間的關係，所以我現在要問兩件事情：第一個，因為之前我知道他們都在講什麼密錄器，但其實密錄器根本錄不遠，像這一次是因為距離很近，所以才錄到這些相關的衝突。我想問一下，關於在衝突的時候，不管是從無人機的拍攝角度，還是從我們自己船隻的拍攝角度，因為中國現在開始會操作說這些都是臺灣軍艦、臺灣船艦的問題，或者一些民用船隻的問題，而我們現在在這邊相關的配置，像監視攝影機等等之類的，不管是預算還是配置的速度現在是如何？這是第一個，我請署長一次回答就好了。第二個，關於AIS，我其實在討論海底電纜的時候都有特別提到，我上次有提醒過在海外有做了很多，譬如不同的船隻，誰的AIS先有、誰的又沒有，是不是一組等等之類的，它可以做一些AI的研判。海巡那時候說其實我們也是可以自己做，而相關的不管是在預算上或者在技術上，現在有沒有辦法做到這些事情？就這兩個問題就好了，謝謝。"],["張署長忠龍：跟委員報告，在金門事件以後，我們所有的監視錄影器包括艦船艇上面現在都已經完備了。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以都完備了？"],["張署長忠龍：特別跟委員報告，我們在應對中國上，不管是軍演、不管是在金門或是馬祖地區，我們的船艦距離大陸的船艦都非常近，最近曾經到達將近不到100公尺，也就是貼著他們在拍，所以我們拍出來的效果是非常好的，可以展現給國人，這部分也非常有震撼力。另外，有關航行在我們周邊的權宜輪部分，我們根據航港局提供的權宜輪資訊，完全可以掌握在臺灣周邊航行的相關權宜輪，我們現在掌握的有96艘中資背景權宜輪，只要它一接近我們的領海跟鄰接區，我們就會做監控，然後請航港局以船籍國管理的方式先廣播，若廣播不聽，我們會備船艦去登檢，對於海面的目標，我們是完全可以掌握的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我最後一句就好了，因為我的時間已經到了。畢竟現在我們有資料庫，有資料庫就知道有哪些船隻，剛剛講有九十幾艘，這個跟AI判斷又是另外一件事，AI判斷的意思是指，即使我們現在有資料庫，這些資料庫的船隻跟別的船隻的互動，比如它的AIS，這個關了，那個馬上開，它會不會是一組的？就是有這些判斷之後，這個資料庫還有擴充的空間，我指的是這件事情，但因為時間的關係，我之後再繼續追蹤這件事。謝謝主席，也謝謝局長跟兩位署長。"],["張署長忠龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委上臺質詢。","接下來由李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159969","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce7cf520bc51ffcd6ba71339fff88aef012eb6e21b32d8c6be4d80454cee631a6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:25:17 - 11:35:53","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T11:25:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T11:35:53+08:00","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.76846875,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.020343750000002,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.711593750000006,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.85471875,"end":100.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.06659375000001,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.10846875000001,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.31596875,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.59409375,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.39096875,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.11159375,"end":178.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.58534375000002,"end":180.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.13784375,"end":182.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.54284375,"end":187.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.95596875,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.68534375000002,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.54596875000001,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.88659375,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.35034375,"end":197.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.39971875,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.89284375000003,"end":236.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.88721875000002,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.32159375,"end":246.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.50721875000002,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.45159375000003,"end":255.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.70409375000003,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.91471875,"end":258.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.58971875000003,"end":283.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.22284375000004,"end":334.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.23596875000004,"end":339.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.74159375000005,"end":388.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.93659375000004,"end":394.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.62346875000003,"end":398.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.44159375000004,"end":397.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.07409375000003,"end":400.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.59284375000004,"end":401.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.50409375000004,"end":405.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.46971875,"end":407.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.93346875000003,"end":418.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.76721875000004,"end":462.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.11909375000005,"end":467.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.98346875000004,"end":467.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.76784375000005,"end":494.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.33721875000003,"end":472.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.27159375,"end":485.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.18159375000005,"end":496.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.42596875000004,"end":498.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.26096875,"end":499.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.96971875,"end":503.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.63159375000004,"end":505.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.99409375000005,"end":506.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.07409375000003,"end":509.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.89221875000004,"end":512.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.2209687500001,"end":519.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.5034687500001,"end":514.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.5278437500001,"end":552.3328437499999},{"speake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謝謝主席 有請署長好 請署長委員好"},{"start":15.841,"end":33.622,"text":"剛剛其實有很多委員都有提到我想你應該知道我等一下接下來要問的一個問題喔足協其實從過去到現在正義一直不斷那在2024年的時候其實也被踢爆就是讓女足的國家隊簽署了這個不平等的合約那包含"},{"start":34.302,"end":52.472,"text":"其中的合約有一些所謂的像肖像可以無限期的使用這類非常非常不公平的一個合約在內那另外呢他也曾經積欠過這個女足的薪水一直到最近又出事了那本來預計是在高雄男子足球場"},{"start":56.034,"end":71.84,"text":"是昨天應該要來進行跟紐西蘭的女足的一個比賽但是呢也因為場地的關係那這個紐西蘭隊表示安全是絕對不能夠容忍退讓的底線所以他們就不參賽了"},{"start":73.2,"end":98.229,"text":"這個對於台灣一直不斷的我們在講我們現在要推廣足球或者是在足協在這個部分不管是場地也好或者是在我們在跟別人在溝通也好或者是足球足協內部的管理也好因為這個場地在三月下旬仍然持續開放男足的訓練請問這到底是足協的問題還是體育署的問題"},{"start":101.25,"end":120.535,"text":"主協內部技術部門跟競賽部門之間的橫向溝通出了很大的問題那既然三月中都是他們接的場地其實他可以把教練講習跟男主的訓練移到別的地方去其實我們國內是沒有缺少訓練的場地我們主要是比賽的場地缺乏那當然這部分我們還是希望主協趕快找到秘書長能把這個橫向的聯繫把它做好"},{"start":123.12,"end":151.966,"text":"那體育署這邊的責任呢我們這邊目前我們在跟高雄市這邊也在談我們希望把中正體育場把它做為第三座的A級的場地那目前正在規劃當中那我們還是持續尋覓其他各縣市如果是比較大型的田徑場館是不是也可以有共用來再創造更多的A級場地不然我們的A級賽事場地都永遠在這北高這兩個其實壓力太大了那針對竹協這一次的疏失我們是把這一次的補助300萬把它撤銷"},{"start":153.484,"end":176.258,"text":"除了這之後要怎麼樣跟足協好好的來做嚴加的管理?報委員其實我們去年他3月發生場地的事情的時候我們在6月其實有輔導他們在至少一個月前都要進行草地的加強養護那SOP他們這一次又沒有落實所以我們這次會請他們把它落實把它寫下來書面化要求他們在每一次的比賽過程要有一個"},{"start":176.979,"end":191.617,"text":"檢核表 這一定要落實不是只有書面化就是檢核啦 我想是檢核啦紙上談兵沒有用啦我知道 就是要檢核這個是真的是要執行面的問題啊因為他們就是公路人員的行政能力因為這次的整個所有的國際賽事被取消這個對於台灣來講其實是相當丟臉的一件事情沒有錯"},{"start":194.961,"end":211.214,"text":"所以足协要付出非常大的一个责任那刚刚其实提到这场地的问题我想在去年其实我们也挹注了许多的地区包含高雄然后台中宜兰然后还有新竹我们是不是也正在进行所谓的足球场"},{"start":211.954,"end":232.573,"text":"就是符合國際賽事的足球場的這樣子的一個興建或者是我講的是台中的部分我們不是有一個首座的足球運動休閒園區也包含兩座符合國際標準的足球場那預計啦 當時是說預計是在今年會完工那現在的工期到什麼進度 有沒有延長"},{"start":233.594,"end":254.328,"text":"台中的部分應該是明年才會完工不過台中的部分它是一面符合國家級的一個size是天然草皮另外一個人工草皮的部分只有在U20以下的size才能夠進行所以明年才會完工對那就跟2023年當初我們講的那個計畫是今年完工是有延宕的這個部分工程本來就比較難預料啦"},{"start":255.785,"end":274.224,"text":"所以是明年才會完工接下來我想剛剛其實署長也在其他的委員在質詢的時候有特別提到我們一直在推廣基層足球的一個發展一直在推廣但是全國國小足球世界盃現在是你一定要停辦"},{"start":275.525,"end":291.241,"text":"那我們也收到了許多家長的陳情啦那他們其實是很焦慮也很心慌因為孩子呢可能從五年級他有參加到六年級現在他挺辦了但即將要面對的是國中"},{"start":291.841,"end":298.723,"text":"那接下來要到國中他是要繼續讓孩子踢足球呢還是我們這個計畫為什麼停辦那當初停辦的原因是什麼或者是說有沒有跟家長來做溝通或者是跟學校校方的基層的這些教練們有來做說明為什麼停辦因為我們在108年創辦"},{"start":313.687,"end":338.3,"text":"之後其實是很多很多小學的隊伍都極力的參加到了112學年度已經達到了782隊報名參賽這已經是創下了一個非常好的一個紀錄但是好不容易我們到了高峰結果說今年這個113學年度是要停辦的這個停辦的說明有跟剛剛我提到的家長或者是跟學校的教練有來溝通嗎"},{"start":339.781,"end":365.642,"text":"報告委員我們這個問題分兩個層面第一個由於今年的通山以及凍結的因素我們公務預算的部分被要求控管三成的經費所以我們必須把人事費相關還有聯賽選手權益等等我們先保護住還有一些學生的保險等等那這一部備賽我們的確是目前是沒有足夠的預算來進行這場賽事所以不得不捨棄但是我們也同時找了專大學者一起來商討也是一些賽事的"},{"start":366.382,"end":391.948,"text":"基層賽事的主辦方來討論我們世界轉型把它變成一個社區的賽事未來我們不排除我們會做社區的就是說不是以學校為單位而已而是以社區包括社區一起納進來一樣是這個年齡層在學童的年齡層來辦理這個賽事但是我們目前的確在公務預算方面我們目前是沒有多餘的預算來做這件事情所以確定全國國小足球世界盃已經是劃下據點了我可以這麼講嗎"},{"start":395.669,"end":418.126,"text":"這原因是這樣子因為我們真的就是今年的預算沒有辦法那明年呢我們運動部的部分我們積極爭取我們現在當然有編只是我們積極爭取我們的預算那什麼時候我們才能夠知道說今年停辦我們其他的你剛剛所說的署長所說的一些社區的我們要怎麼樣來個別來做這樣子的一個推廣"},{"start":418.857,"end":440.206,"text":"包委員這部分就第二個層面來講我們現在足球的賽事越多隊伍數也越來越多也就是說我們的足球場地其實越來越滿所以我們也很擔心說我們現在在這個時間點來舉辦社區的賽事因為不管是足協其他的聯賽其實都有這個年齡層的賽事都不缺乏"},{"start":440.686,"end":467.593,"text":"那我們要不要再增加造成場地更大的負擔我們也是有在跟一些賽事的基層訓練基層的賽事的主辦方來討論那我們會審慎的評估但是對我來講我當然希望比賽越多越好包括我們未來的社區化全民運動孩子的聯賽我們希望能夠在週末盡可能在週末不影響的課業的方式來進行這方面的賽事所以停辦的主因就是因為我們這個會期的同山的部分"},{"start":468.833,"end":495.187,"text":"好 那我們想辦法 是 我這邊努力的想辦法好不好 因為我想這個基層足球的發展對於很多的孩子來講 很多的家長來講其實他們是非常非常的抱有希望啦那也是全民的一個運動 尤其是向下殺根的部分好 那再來就是運動彩券發行的這個部分我想呢 這個我還是要問一下 就是署長您自己有買過運動彩券嗎"},{"start":496.468,"end":519.55,"text":"報告委員我不被允許我不能買好你沒有買平常朋友家人有買過嗎有聽他們講有買好玩嗎我不知道因為我沒有買過所以你沒有收集到其他人的資料嗎有其實經銷商他們都會跟我們做一些回饋反應那我知道委員要問的是應該是講資率的部分"},{"start":520.532,"end":526.22,"text":"這個部分我想我們蒐集到的一些資料就是15個專家一起做了大概750場的一個預測記得是專家那這些專家當中其中有412場是猜對了338場是猜錯了"},{"start":536.454,"end":551.939,"text":"命中率是54.9%但是這樣子的命中率到最後還是賠了24,880元那可敬這個誘因還有它的這個應該是說投資報酬率或者是說它的這個中獎率它的"},{"start":553.06,"end":568.577,"text":"讓大家吸引大家來買運動彩券的這樣子的吸引力其實是不足的那這個部分我們是不是有可能來做一些鬆綁或者是來做一些改變讓這個獎金的支出率可以提高它的上限"},{"start":569.218,"end":589.037,"text":"保委員在現有的架構下運動彩券因為賭博在台灣不是一個容許它不是不被容許它是一個特許的行業那還有社會責任在那其實它獎資率78%是一個一整年度的平均值它其實針對不同的賽事它可以到九十幾或者是到降到六十幾由發行機構自己去做運用"},{"start":589.497,"end":612.912,"text":"那當然78%裡面有22%是它的成本就有10%進到我們的國家對這杯培訓或者是國際賽事另外有經銷商以及發行機構那我知道經銷商他們其實希望我們國家的部分能夠在一定的收入之下能夠做一個讓利讓這個獎勵率可以有所提升那這部分我們正在做研議那我們當然第三屆已經簽約了那我們希望在第三屆的期間多聽各方的意見"},{"start":614.173,"end":635.675,"text":"整理出一個更好的方案來做修法那第四屆的時候就可以按照經銷商他們的期待我想如果有提高這個獎金的比例其實也能夠挹注在運動發展一些基金的項目啦那我想這個是雙贏的一個局面所以其實應該也要來近期之內就是進行的一些研議啦好 謝謝謝謝署長 謝謝主席 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時25分）謝謝主席，有請署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：署長早安。剛剛其實有很多委員都有提到，我想你應該知道我接下來要問的問題。足協其實從過去到現在的爭議一直不斷，在2024年的時候被踢爆讓女足國家隊簽署了不平等的合約，包含其中有一些合約是肖像可以無限期的使用，像這一類非常非常不公平的合約在內；他們也曾經積欠過女足的薪水，一直到最近又出事了，本來昨天預計在高雄楠梓足球場要進行跟紐西蘭女足的比賽，但是因為場地的關係，紐西蘭隊表示：安全是絕對不能夠容忍退讓的底線。所以他們就不參賽了，這對於臺灣一直不斷在講的：我們現在要推廣足球。足協在這個部分不管是場地也好，或者是跟別人的溝通也好，還是足協內部的管理也好……因為這個場地在3月下旬仍然持續開放男足的訓練，請問這到底是足協的問題還是體育署的問題？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，足協內部技術部門跟競賽部門之間的橫向溝通出了很大的問題，今年3月中都是他們借的場地，其實他們可以把教練講習跟男足的訓練移到別的地方。其實我們國內沒有缺少訓練的場地，主要是比賽場地的缺乏，當然我們還是希望足協趕快找到秘書長，能把這個橫向聯繫做好。"],["郭委員昱晴：那體育署這邊的責任呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們目前也在跟高雄市談，希望把中正體育場作為第三座A級場地，目前正在規劃當中，我們也持續尋覓其他縣市，如果是比較大型的田徑場館可以共用，再創造更多的A級場地，不然我們的A級賽事場地永遠在北、高，其實這兩個縣市壓力太大了。"],["郭委員昱晴：針對足協這次的疏失，體育署做了什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們把這次補助的300萬撤銷。"],["郭委員昱晴：除了這個，之後要怎麼跟足協好好的來做嚴加管理跟溝通？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實去年3月他們發生場地的事情時，我們在6月都還有輔導他們，至少一個月前要進行草地的加強養護，他們這一次又沒有落實SOP，所以我們這次會請他們落實，把它寫下來變成書面化，要求他們在每一次的比賽過程中有一個檢核表，這一定要落實。"],["郭委員昱晴：不是只有書面化……"],["鄭署長世忠：就是檢核，我們講檢核啦！"],["郭委員昱晴：紙上談兵沒有用啦！"],["鄭署長世忠：我知道，就是要檢核。"],["郭委員昱晴：這真的是執行面的問題。"],["鄭署長世忠：因為他們這是工作人員的行政能力……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這一次是所有的國際賽事被取消，這對於臺灣來講其實是相當丟臉的一件事情。"],["鄭署長世忠：是的，沒有錯，這很丟臉。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以足協要負非常大的責任。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛提到了場地的問題，我想去年其實我們也挹注了許多地區，包含高雄、臺中、宜蘭、新竹，目前是不是也正在進行足球場的興建？也就是符合國際賽事的足球場的興建？我講的是臺中，我們不是有一個首座的足球運動休閒園區，包含兩座符合國際標準的足球場，當時預計在今年會完工，那現在的工期到什麼進度？有沒有延宕？"],["鄭署長世忠：臺中的部分，應該是明年才會完工。"],["郭委員昱晴：明年？"],["鄭署長世忠：不過臺中它是一面符合國家級的賽事，是天然草皮，另外一個是人工草皮，只有在U20以下的賽事才能夠進行。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以明年才會完工？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：那就跟當初2023年我們講的那個計畫要在今年要完工是有延宕的？"],["鄭署長世忠：工程的部分本來就比較難預料。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以是明年才會完工？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，剛剛署長也在其他委員質詢時有特別提到我們一直在推廣基層足球的發展……"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：但全國國小足球世界盃現在擬定停辦，為此，我們收到了許多家長的陳情，他們其實很焦慮也很心慌。孩子從五年級參加，六年級停辦了，所以他們即將要面對的是國中，而國中還要繼續讓孩子踢足球嗎？為什麼停辦？當初停辦的原因是什麼？有沒有跟家長溝通？或跟學校、基層的教練們說明為什麼停辦？因為在108年創辦之後，其實很多小學隊伍都積極參加，112學年度已經達到782隊報名參賽，創下非常好的紀錄。我們好不容易到了高峰，結果113學年度要停辦！對於停辦，有跟家長或者學校教練溝通嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這問題分兩個層面：第一，由於今年預算通刪及凍結因素，公務預算被要求控管三成經費，所以我們必須把與人事費相關、聯賽選手權益及學生保險等先保護住，目前的確沒有足夠預算來進行這場賽事，因而不得不捨棄。第二，我們也同時找了專家及一些基層賽事的主辦方來討論，看是不是轉型變成社區賽事？未來我們不排除會做社區賽事，即不以學校為單位，而把社區一起納進來，一樣以學童的年齡層來辦理賽事。目前在公務預算方面，我們的確沒有多餘的預算可以做這件事。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以確定全國國小足球世界盃已經劃下句點了，我可以這麼講嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：今年的原因是這樣子，今年的預算真的沒有辦法。"],["郭委員昱晴：明年呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：運動部的部分我們積極爭取。現在當然有編，我們會積極爭取我們的預算。"],["郭委員昱晴：什麼時候我們才能夠知道？今年停辦，至於剛剛署長所說的社區比賽，又要怎麼樣做個別的推廣？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，就第二個層面來講，現在足球賽事越來越多，隊伍數也越來越多，換句話說，足球場地其實越來越滿！所以我們也很擔心在這個時間點舉辦社區賽事……不管是足協或其他的聯賽，這個年齡層的賽事其實都不缺乏，我們是不是要再增加比賽，造成場地更大的負擔？我們有在跟一些基層賽事的主辦方討論，會審慎評估。對我來講，我當然希望比賽越多越好，包括未來的社區化、全民運動、孩子的聯賽，我們希望儘可能在週末，以不影響課業的方式來進行賽事。"],["郭委員昱晴：停辦的主因就是因為這會期預算通刪？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們想辦法……"],["鄭署長世忠：是，我們會努力的想辦法。"],["郭委員昱晴：好不好？其實很多孩子與家長對於基層足球的發展抱有希望，這也是一項全民運動，尤其這是向下扎根的部分。","再來就是運動彩券的發行，請問署長，您有買過運動彩券嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我不被允許，我不能買。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，你沒有買，朋友家人有買過嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：有聽他們講有買。"],["郭委員昱晴：好玩嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我不知道，因為我沒有買過。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以你沒有蒐集到其他人的資料？"],["鄭署長世忠：有，經銷商都會跟我們做一些回饋反應，我知道委員要問的應該是獎支率的部分。"],["郭委員昱晴：這部分我們有蒐集到一些資料，並與15位專家一起做了750場預測。署長，請記得，是專家。這些專家猜對了412場，338場猜錯了，命中率是54.9%，但這樣的命中率最後還是賠了2萬4,880元，可見誘因與投資報酬率，或者說中獎率，即吸引大家買運動彩券的吸引力是不足的，這部分是不是有可能做一些鬆綁，或者做一些改變，提高獎金支出率的上限？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，運動彩券在現有架構下，因為賭博在臺灣不被容許，是特許行業，有其社會責任在。至於獎支率78%是一整年度的平均值，針對不同的賽事，其實有的可以到百分之九十幾，或者到降到百分之六十幾，由發行機構自行勻用。這78%裡面有22%是成本，有10%進入國家隊做培訓或者國際賽事，另外還有經銷商以及發行機構。我知道經銷商其實希望國家能在一定的收入之下讓利，讓獎支率可以提升，這部分我們正在做研議。由於第3屆已經簽約了，我們希望在第3屆期間多聽各方意見，整理出一個更好的方案來修法，如此第4屆時就可以按照經銷商的期待讓……"],["郭委員昱晴：如果能提高獎金比例，這樣也能夠挹注運動發展的一些項目。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，我們樂觀看待。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想這是雙贏的局面，所以近期之內要積極研議。好，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，署長請回。","我們接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdceb05721115390d95da9dd72f8e909e2232eb6e21b32d8c6bea1161ff5f2c303155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:21:48 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汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的"},{"start":156.986,"end":172.641,"text":"跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括法案署下面有很多的分署"},{"start":173.482,"end":186.958,"text":"那有些訪視我自己接下來也有相關的訪視的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來訪視那"},{"start":190.106,"end":209.186,"text":"所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關"},{"start":209.887,"end":225.767,"text":"的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了"},{"start":226.988,"end":245.674,"text":"我相信部裡面的時候通常也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於"},{"start":247.354,"end":275.572,"text":"這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是能夠維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話"},{"start":276.232,"end":294.604,"text":"那勞動部應該要如何來救責好跟萬元說明齁勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列"},{"start":296.752,"end":321.159,"text":"明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是"},{"start":326.34,"end":352.949,"text":"去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果"},{"start":355.824,"end":368.412,"text":"這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任"},{"start":369.38,"end":398.591,"text":"好 那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好"},{"start":399.091,"end":413.348,"text":"那依據目前預告的草案裡面這個草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個"},{"start":415.79,"end":442.916,"text":"帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形之下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何"},{"start":445.016,"end":464.575,"text":"其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義"},{"start":465.616,"end":484.057,"text":"這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在霸凌的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們霸凌的相關的防治"},{"start":484.858,"end":503.448,"text":"那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的 對"},{"start":504.628,"end":532.31,"text":"是 所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩埠裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立"},{"start":533.291,"end":560.049,"text":"可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性貧部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合把這功能給整合有些部分包括處理性騷擾性貧那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能給整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了"},{"start":560.829,"end":582.721,"text":"的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多如果好的方法的話可以減少他們的困擾那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有"},{"start":584.702,"end":610.398,"text":"考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中"},{"start":611.325,"end":626.706,"text":"那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的"},{"start":627.867,"end":652.797,"text":"那相關的配套當然我們認為現在當然衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是"},{"start":653.297,"end":671.789,"text":"好因為接過來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的因應現在的這些"},{"start":675.751,"end":697.781,"text":"請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是臺灣我們臺方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達"},{"start":699.66,"end":723.981,"text":"那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝謝謝王議員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時22分）謝謝主席。我們有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就業安定基金後續的處置，早上大家也都有聽到，包括審計部還有主計總處的說明，當然部長也做了非常完整的說明，不過開始之前，還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長，我們也知道，自從川普總統提出了相關的關稅處理模式之後，相信對所有國家造成的影響都非常大，勞動部也提出了四大因應措施來處理，這四大因應措施，部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明，這邊想要多了解一下部長當初有提到主動訪視的部分，我就依序來請部長，針對勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關產業受到影響的無薪假，還有失業情形的掌握狀況，第二點部分是哪些產業適合趕快來主動出擊，我相信產業的屬性不同，造成的衝擊也是不太一樣。","另外是大家很關心，如果事業單位領取了相關的補助，後來又發生了違反相關要求的話，勞動部有沒有哪些因應措施？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，確實我們現在非常非常關注產業所可能會受到的衝擊。因為產業受到衝擊之後，後面可能是就業機會受到衝擊，所以我們現在會優先鎖定有高風險遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業，就像之前大家講到，包括像機械業、汽車零組件，甚至現在大家講到像水五金、塑膠、石化業等等，我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業，包括這些產業下面的相關公會。所以目前我們其實已經在主動的跟這些公會來進行聯繫，如果有相關資訊的話，我們就會主動訪視跟確認。關於訪視，其實勞動部有很多的，包括發展署下面有很多的分署，我自己接下來也有相關的訪視行程要一一地來聽，尤其是像中部或者是在南部，我們其實會有一些出口製造業，它有可能是最容易受到影響的部分，我們會來訪視。","關於這個部分，我們目前會把衝擊的回報機制給建立起來，這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府、包括跟公會、包括跟我們分署，甚至跟產業界的公協會來合作。所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關的新聞出現，有這些新聞出現的話，我們也會有機制去做立即的確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解僱的狀況出現？我們這一個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來。"],["王委員正旭：我知道部長已經很忙碌了，我相信部裡面的所有同仁也都非常忙碌，不過看起來有這個需求的話，可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下，主動出擊，也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友權益的部分，看如何能夠再做更好的維持，這是有關於這個部分。","另外就安基金處理的過程裡面，今天其實大家都非常熱烈討論，部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下，是不是仍然維持由行政院來編列公務預算歸墊？這個處理方式有沒有做……經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後，有沒有希望再做調整的部分？另外，如果最後司法判決有違失的話，勞動部要如何來究責？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，勞動部是行政部門，所以我們必須依照審計部給我們的相關審計結果跟相關規範作法來做後續的作業。以編列明年之後的公務預算來歸墊，是過去被認定為修正減列的作法之一，可是具體的作法，我們願意再來跟行政院包括審計跟主計做一些的討論，當然我知道現在有些人會說你這不就還是用全民的稅金來去歸墊嗎？可是我必須說，確實過去在被認定為修正減列的狀況之下，是去處理會計上面、決算上面的帳務上修正的方法之一，我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做討論。委員剛才講到的是，因為大家現在也很關注責任的追究，責任追究的部分，現在包括監察院、包括檢、調、司法都在查，如果檢、調、司法最後判定是有所謂非法營私，或者是有違法的人謀不臧的話，當然我們就必須依照司法判決，去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任。"],["王委員正旭：好，因為我們了解前分署長謝宜容在這個過程裡面，也造成了另外的霸凌問題。那個霸凌的問題，我目前也在透過修法，希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整，目前的草案裡面也了解說如何能夠考慮很多相關在職掌當中帶來的霸凌問題，能夠做得更完整、更好。依據目前預告的所有草案裡面，針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面、在進入司法程序之前，萬一這個申訴機制不夠完整的話，可能帶來的影響會更大，包括以前是要連續性，如果不是連續性的話，就是情節重大的情形之下，就可以有機會來針對霸凌防制的問題做一個更完整的規劃。請問一下，如果是有所謂情節重大的部分，萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話，那後面還有沒有救治的機制，可以讓他做得更完整？這部分部長的意見如何？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們針對在定義霸凌上的情節重大，主要是針對……過去其實會有一些法院的判例，這些法院判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性，所以會有一些案例，因為看起來它不是持續的，所以會被法院判定為好像不是霸凌的狀況。可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這個但書給定義出來的時候，如果有單一、一次或個別次數的情節重大的發生的話，不一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況，那等於是在霸凌的整體定義上面，能夠更完整的去建構霸凌相關的防制，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，目前在我們草案裡面的修法版本，如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話，當然是直接進到地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴，這部分是很明確的。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以如果將來需要的話，可能也要麻煩部裡面是不是能夠設立類似裁決委員會或第三公證的單位來處理相關的這些後續？"],["洪部長申翰：性工法的修法裡面其實有相對應的性平會來處理，所以我們現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼樣……因為我們不希望企業要自己去設立可能很多個類似的委員會，好像部分委員會處理性平、某個部分的委員會處理霸凌，其實很多企業可能也沒辦法。所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合？有些部分包括處理性騷擾、性平，他同時也有處理霸凌的功能，我們可能要協助企業把這些功能整合，他才能夠比較好的去運作，不然太分散的話，對很多企業來說，尤其臺灣這麼多的中小微企業，可能也不一定受得了。"],["王委員正旭：是，的確企業治理的部分，這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多，如果有好的方法，就可以減少這方面的困擾。很快再請教一下，我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院服務時碰到一個滿困難的問題，就是護理人力的不足，這邊有沒有考慮未來針對於開放資深移工擔任護佐進度的部分，你們目前掌握的狀況如何？我們也了解這樣對於護理專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊，這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中？"],["洪部長申翰：關於這部分，目前是在預告中，其實他是讓資深移工轉為中階的護佐。可是對於中階的護佐，其實我們是有設定門檻的，包括薪資門檻，包括技能門檻，甚至包括語言上面都有門檻，並不是沒有門檻的。至於相關的配套，衛福部也在做這樣的申請，我們也希望衛福部可以把護佐跟護理師之間關於工作分工的介面，其實應該要把它設定清楚，這也是相關的配套，才能讓這個分工……或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出申請的時候，怎麼樣讓這個分工可以真的有效。"],["王委員正旭：好。接下來下一個問題，請部長稍微說明一下關於直聘的部分，我們也知道，透過直聘，可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護移工的部分可以更迅速因應現在這些問題，這部分請部長也說明一下，跟印度或者是原來這些移工的國家有談論到這部分嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有的，因為立法院對於印度移工的引進非常關心直聘的問題。所以我們其實也把我們臺方希望在直聘上面的期待很清楚地跟印方表達。但是現在確實大家在執行面的技術狀況，大家還在做一些磋商，因為國會也非常關注，所以我們有好幾度再跟印方表達我們在臺印之間移工引進的問題上面，我們對於直聘的期待。"],["王委員正旭：好，今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","等一下在蘇清泉委員質詢完畢後，我們處理臨時提案。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：下一位請蘇召委詢答，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce3d06f6499d811f39eafc78fb10225fff2eb6e21b32d8c6bee027a2bf8945983e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:20:13 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邀請局長國安局好 姚惠美好局長好那針對於川普政府宣布對外貿易與投資政策那包括了各國的鋼、鋁、汽車關稅到25%甚至對各國的課徵的10%到50%的對等關稅"},{"start":29.117,"end":51.893,"text":"也派引導整個製造業能夠回流到美國關稅政策一出引發了國人的恐慌尤其是我們產業界非常非常的憂心在川普政策出爐前政府要人民安心強調風險可控政府有準備沒想到美國政府最後對我們課稅是高達32%的關稅"},{"start":54.855,"end":83.712,"text":"那政府是不是在事前已經有掌控到相關的資訊那我們國安團隊的判斷到底是什麼所以首先來請教國安會議的結論最後是不是誠如柯總召所說的是這個關稅是10%請教沒有這部分應該行政院已經有對外說明當時在評估可能美國對等關稅的稅增的那個會多大"},{"start":85.578,"end":90.66,"text":"那當時是有抓一個蠻大的幅度那最大的幅度應該是比現在的32%還要大剛剛在這個經濟委員會呢部長跟劉主委國防會都說當時的這個準備是10%到35%是不是如此"},{"start":104.617,"end":125.698,"text":"對 我尊重行政院相關部會的對外說明你對外說明就是同意所以我們不希望說民眾聽到的訊息是差別這麼大因為柯總召是鐵口直斷的說放心啦 就是只有10%可是隔天出來的答案是如此讓人民真的恐慌我們也不希望"},{"start":126.398,"end":143.115,"text":"讓人民這麼恐慌不可以所以政府必須要有所應對那所以在這個對等的關稅的議題之前台積電對美的投資那麼已經引起了不少的討論也有人憂心也就是說"},{"start":144.156,"end":168.692,"text":"不少人質疑說台積電變美積電那也有人憂心說赴美之後的投資會削弱了台灣晶片的一個優勢那麼台積電的半導體它的角色地位我們的描述是承諾是台灣的戲盾但是我們也看到美方說了他說未來有4成的晶片在美生產換句話說更有人說這會陷入了我們"},{"start":172.774,"end":194.384,"text":"一個安全的困境那也就是說美國得到了這個台積電的一個投資確保了美國供應鏈的一個安全但是我們台灣的資產安全反而是讓我們會不穩定所以在這種情況之下請教局長台積電對美投資的增加對我國安有什麼影響請教"},{"start":195.475,"end":221.963,"text":"我想第一部分先說明一下因為台積電畢竟是一家民營的企業它的海外的佈局投資我想我們國安單位不適合做評論好或不好但是從國際情報的角度我可以跟委員分享報告的是就國際的所謂半導體的產業來講它是一個蠻大的全球的生態系所以我相信我們的廠商在做相關的投資佈局一定都會有它的一個評估跟考量"},{"start":222.443,"end":241.741,"text":"那相關的投資對於他的企業是不是在擴展市場上或是在供應的安全上或是更多的訂單的爭取上他一定會有一些評估那這部分我想注重但是在我們的盾牌如果削弱了這個盾牌當然人民會有所疑慮所以在我們整個國安的方面我們的影響"},{"start":242.761,"end":259.846,"text":"對 也跟委員說明一下因為我們國內的那個半導體的產業的供應鏈生態系非常的完整那有非常優秀的勞動力那也有非常先進的技術它要在短期被取代的可能性沒有那麼高所以換句話說我們還是合作"},{"start":264.351,"end":272.944,"text":"看到這個問題我們要好好的去應對滾動式的一個檢討接下來本席要請教國安局您自個兒的統計報告2020年到現在共諜案的起訴"},{"start":278.172,"end":292.077,"text":"有159人那其中現役跟退役的有95人他的占比是60%那上週更傳出有總統府的資議立法院的國會的助理涉這個共諜案"},{"start":294.318,"end":309.301,"text":"這一些的事件讓國人就非常非常的不安那麼顯示中共試圖對於我們整個軍事單位以及政府的機關它是進行滲透企圖取得了機密的一個"},{"start":310.941,"end":326.727,"text":"這個資訊所以在這樣的情況之下局長面對這樣子的威脅增加那我方如何應應呢你要怎麼樣去加強這一個查核來確保我們國家的這個機敏性的資訊能夠得到安全請做說明"},{"start":327.747,"end":345.918,"text":"就這部分我想會做這些共諜案的揭露主要是讓我們的社會大眾更可以知道中共對台灣進行滲透的一些手法跟樣態那我們這樣子才能夠強化我們的社會韌性來防範中共對台灣有更多的這些在地協力者網絡的建構這是第一點跟委員說明"},{"start":346.778,"end":375.675,"text":"那第二部分是就共諜案來講我們國安情報單位來講我們會分享相關的一個情資情訊那假如有比較明確的一個違法的事證的話我們就會請司法單位來進行偵辦那所以怎麼樣來嚴查嚴辦也是我們在處理共諜案主要的一個處理的因應的方式那第三個部分就是在法治的部分想要能夠來嚴懲共諜案達到嚇阻效果的話我們也必須要來檢視我們的相關的法令規定有沒有不足的地方"},{"start":376.115,"end":404.045,"text":"那總統在3月13號召開國安高層會議也有特別提醒要求我們行政部門要針對法律的適用有沒有哪些可以在更精進的地方來做一些檢討那這部分我們國安局跟法務部有在討論除了法律面的檢討但是現在的機關已經到總統府到國會裡頭來這個是非同小可所以我也敬請這個國安局這邊你們的政策方向應對要如何去精進"},{"start":405.025,"end":433.381,"text":"這個是很重要的這部分也跟剛剛幾位委員先進在討論也就是政府各機關不管行政部門或是立法院這邊對於一些人員的禁用怎麼樣來建立起一個安查的機制那認為人員的核密階密的等級怎麼樣有一個規範那同時在文書文件的核密也應該要有一套制度那這部分我們在國安單位事實上已經行之有年那假如說立法院也有類似的一個規劃的話我們很樂意來提供相關的意見給大院來做參考"},{"start":434.485,"end":448.501,"text":"所以這個除了參考之外我想國家是議題的尤其到了總統府跟這個國會那更要嚴肅的來看待這個議題方案要怎麼做讓我們的國家能夠安全這是非常重要的謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時20分）謝謝主席，邀請國安局局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：局長好。對於川普政府宣布對外貿易與投資政策，包括各國的鋼、鋁、汽車關稅到25%，甚至對各國課徵了10到50%的對等關稅，盼引導整個製造業能夠回流到美國，關稅政策一出，引發了國人的恐慌，尤其是我們產業界非常、非常的憂心。在川普政策出爐前，政府要人命安心，強調風險可控、政府有準備，沒想到美國政府最後對我們課徵高達32%的關稅，政府是不是在事前已經有掌控到相關的資訊，我們國安團隊的判斷到底是什麼？首先請教國安會議的結論，最後是不是誠如柯總召所說的，這個關稅是10%？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這部分應該行政院已經有對外說明，當時評估美國對等關稅的稅徵範圍可能會多大，當時有抓一個滿大的幅度，最大的幅度應該是比現在的32%還要大。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛在經濟委員會，部長跟國發會劉主委都說當時的準備是10%到35%，是不是如此？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我尊重行政院相關部會的對外說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你就是同意他們的對外說明，我們不希望民眾聽到的訊息差別這麼大，因為柯總召鐵口直斷的說：放心，只有10%！可是隔天出來的答案是如此，讓人民真的恐慌，我們也不希望讓人民這麼恐慌，不可以！所以政府必須要有所應對。","在這個對等關稅的議題之前，台積電對美的投資已經引起了不少討論，不少人質疑台積電變美積電，也有人憂心，赴美投資之後會削弱了臺灣的晶片優勢，台積電在半導體的角色地位，我們的描述是誠如臺灣的矽盾！但是我們也看到美方說了，他說未來有四成的晶片在美生產，換句話說，更有人說我們陷入了一個安全困境，也就是說，美國得到了台積電的投資，確保了美國供應鏈的安全，但是我們臺灣自身的安全反而變得不穩定。在這種情況之下請教局長，台積電對美投資增加對我國安有什麼影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：第一部分先說明一下，因為台積電畢竟是一家民營的企業，他的海外布局投資，我想我們國安單位不適合評論好或不好；但是從國際情報角度我可以跟委員分享、報告的是，就國際的半導體產業來講，它是一個滿大的全球生態系，所以我相信我們廠商在做相關的投資布局一定都會有它的評估跟考量，相關的投資對於企業本身在擴展市場上、在供應鏈安全上或是更多訂單的爭取上他一定會有一些評估，這一部分尊重……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是市場上的布局，但是在我們的盾牌方面，如果削弱了這個盾牌，當然人民會有所疑慮，所以在我們整個國安方面到底有什麼影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：不過也跟委員說明一下，因為我們國內半導體產業的供應鏈、生態系非常完整，有非常優秀的勞動力、也有非常先進的技術，它要在短期被取代的可能性沒有那麼高，所以這一部份可能也是委員要對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，我們還是有所……看到這個問題，我們要好好的去應對、滾動式的檢討。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教，關於國安局本身的統計報告，2020年到現在，共諜案起訴159人，其中現役跟退役的有95人，占比60%；上週更傳出有總統府的諮議、立法院的國會助理涉共諜案，這一些事件讓國人非常、非常的不安，顯示中共試圖對於我們整個軍事單位以及政府機關進行滲透、企圖取得機密資訊。在這樣的情況之下，局長，面對這樣子的威脅增加，我方如何因應呢？你要怎麼樣加強查核來確保我們國家的機敏性資訊能夠安全？請做說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：就這部分，我想會做這些共諜案的揭露，主要是讓我們的社會大眾更可以知道中共對臺灣進行滲透的一些手法跟樣態，這樣子才能夠強化我們的社會韌性，防範中共對臺灣有更多在地協力者、網絡的建構，這是第一點跟委員說明；第二部分就共諜案來講，我們國安情報單位會分享相關的情資、情訊，假如有比較明確的違法事證，我們就會移請司法單位來進行偵辦，所以怎麼樣來嚴查、嚴辦也是我們在處理共諜案的主要處理因應方式；第三個在法治的部分，想要嚴懲共諜案來達到嚇阻效果的話，我們也必須要檢視我們的相關法令規定有沒有不足的地方，總統在3月13號召開國安高層會議也有特別提醒，要求我們行政部門要針對法律適用有沒有哪些可以再更精進的地方做一些檢討，這一部分我們國安局跟法務部有在討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，除了法律面的檢討，但是現在的機關已經到總統府、到國會裡頭來，這個非同小可，所以我也敬請國安局，你們的政策、方向、應對要如何去精進，這個是很重要的事。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這部分也跟剛剛幾位委員先進在討論，也就是政府各機關，不管行政部門或是立法院，對於一些人員進用怎麼樣建立起一個安查機制，針對人員的核密、接密等級怎麼樣有一個規範，同時在文書、文件的核密也應該要有一套制度，這一部分我們國安單位已經行之有年，假如立法院也有類似規劃的話，我們很樂意提供相關意見給大院做參考。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個除了參考之外，我想國家是一體的，尤其到了總統府跟國會，更要嚴肅地來看待這個議題，方案要怎麼做才能讓我們的國家安全，這是非常重要的。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提醒。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。","接下來由沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcee0e38218fbbab116a0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6be233332d118b3cbf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:18:08 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一定要帶著他說你要帶著錢來談嘛帶著利多來談嘛"},{"start":172.401,"end":194.878,"text":"所以在這個情況之下雖然說都是未知數談的結果怎麼樣我們也不敢有樂觀但是我們要準備好所以現在盤點的情況怎麼樣了報委員我們現在最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最"},{"start":196.055,"end":221.856,"text":"然後我們如果能夠談到10%這樣的關稅我們會有什麼樣的一個情境這個就是分析然後哪一些東西可能會被課32%但是是不是我們的優勢商品是不是我們的供應性商品是不是互補性的商品這裡面我們可以看就是說你美國需要但是只有我台灣可以供應"},{"start":223.206,"end":232.35,"text":"那你課我32%你的客戶要買單嗎所以說要部長好好的盤點嘛我們確實是都有盤點台灣對美國的出口金額從2020年一直到2024年逐年增加從505億一直到去年的1114億在這個裡面的剩了52%就是資通訊"},{"start":246.499,"end":257.41,"text":"就是資通訊所以現在雖然說台積電不要說台積電雖然半導體跟藥品目前是暫時豁免但是我們要談的"},{"start":258.84,"end":279.493,"text":"就是準備看看我們台積電在已經過去投資了那現在投審會也在審查了那可不可以請美國在這方面給我們多一點力多來保障保護到我們的產業不然的話我們台積電就白白去美國投資沒有獲得更多的優惠的部分是不是"},{"start":279.833,"end":293.458,"text":"我想委員的意見我們都會提供給談判小組人做參考是好那本市也要知道你們現在因應方式就是特別預算增加880億這880億工業700億農業180億真的對這些產業來講真的是杯水車薪不夠那在不夠的情形之下"},{"start":304.162,"end":324.556,"text":"現在是先應急啦根本解決就關稅對等關稅趕快談嘛對我們再更加的有利啦所以也請你們好好盤點那現在不夠的部分我們會支持我們會支持因為產業太辛苦了因為你關稅提高的話就算產業的成本就是提高提高的話萬一訂單減少"},{"start":327.113,"end":344.567,"text":"的話就會裁員裁員又會發生的就是無薪假的部分再來就會失業這是連帶關係整個產業都會受到很大的衝擊所以我們一定會支持應急的方式你們趕快把每個產業都了解怎麼要去輔導該轉型的部分都要去轉型所以這不夠的部分本席在這邊也是要建議因為去年的超收稅金5283億"},{"start":356.757,"end":370.791,"text":"這個部分也可以做產業的紓困基金這個部分也請部長可以呈報去給行政院這個能夠解決我們產業的需求這樣子好不好是 謝謝委員好那接下來剛剛有特別提到說你們盤整要盤整去談的話我們進口的美國的部分你們有沒有盤整"},{"start":377.757,"end":397.335,"text":"他們進口我們將近30個品項的產品這些產品的話你們有沒有去盤整說哪些我們也要說釋出善意啊除了台積電來談的話這半導體來談的話其他他進口的一些品項裡面有沒有我們可以調整一下這個他們進口台灣的部分的這個關稅"},{"start":399.076,"end":415.802,"text":"我想這個關稅談判他不是做只有單一啦他們會總的當然是總的那我們自己要盤點嘛我們當然會盤點我們都提供這個資料讓談判小組他們可以去做參考有盤點這30個品項嗎對對對有嗎我們都有分析你們盤整出來數額聽你們講是都夠怎麼樣叫夠"},{"start":420.762,"end":432.736,"text":"你說700億的部分不是就是美國進口是30個品項你們看哪些品項可以降低這個關稅的部分來釋出我們的善意跟美國可以進一步的對談嗎"},{"start":434.315,"end":461.169,"text":"我們現在都會盤點其實我們從美國進口的工業性產品不多我們倒是賣到美國的東西是工業性產品多於這個農業性產品那我們現在農業產品是美國進到台灣的是比較多比我們輸到美國的這個農業性產品是比較多的所以我們會綜合去討論那其實要解決這一個關稅的問題它有很多的方法"},{"start":461.849,"end":479.841,"text":"那我們行政院大概就是有分配各部門大家應該分工合作然後提供給談判小組一些有利的談判的資訊我相信我們跟委員報告也都是一樣當然委員有更好的這個指教我們也希望我們能夠告訴我們你剛才那些好的意見我們都會轉達會向上報告因為剛剛提到的是台積電半導體都到"},{"start":486.885,"end":499.596,"text":"美國去投資了啦你增加要增加一千億那投審會都在審查了那現在美國也把這個半導體為他們的主軸利益嘛所以他們一定會非常的重視這個是非常有利的一個條件投審會這邊要加強的來審查那我們也可以拿這個當籌碼跟美國來談讓這個有更多的利多給我們來保護我們的產業謝謝委員提示"},{"start":511.666,"end":518.142,"text":"這樣子的話半導體或者是藥品它可以永久的豁免這才是重點好不好加油加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時18分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，美國總統川普現在在進行的是貿易保護，所以對全世界國家都要課對等關稅，在4月2號公布的名單當中，臺灣就被課了32%，4月7號我們的股市一開盤馬上就大跌了2,000點以上，在這種情況之下，我們立即要應對的事情非常的多。本席想詢問的是，我們看到日本被課了24%，韓國被課了25%，這些都是我們鄰近的國家，也是最有競爭力跟我們競爭的國家，現在我們被課了比較高的關稅，關於我們的因應方式，我相信在這幾天你們也會去盤點，尤其最重要的，在川普一直預告的當下，你們應該要先跟我們所有的產業進行溝通，或者是說你們要先跟美國進行溝通評估，請問你們溝通評估了沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一次確實是如你所講的，來得比我們預期的高，我們當然是有預期到……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們預期實施後會調漲百分之多少？"],["郭部長智輝：35%，最高35%。"],["呂委員玉玲：最低？"],["郭部長智輝：最低就10%。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，10%。"],["郭部長智輝：10%對我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們32%算是高的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們算是高的，這個是計算方式，我們後來發現這樣的一個計算方式導致我們會被課比較高的關稅，不過美國也有講這個就是你最高的關稅，接著來談判，我想那個談判關稅不會比這個再高了，一定會比這個更低，就那一些項目之內。"],["呂委員玉玲：了解，我們也啟動一定要跟美國再談談嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然現在就是要……"],["呂委員玉玲：你要去談之前一定要盤點各產業的需求，對不對？你要怎麼談？是單項談，還是總個談，還是我們要讓關稅降到多少，心裡都要有底，最重要的是心裡的底是什麼，我們要有籌碼去談嘛，因為川普就等著你們來談，為什麼要等著你們來談？他說一定要帶著錢來談、帶著利多來談。在這個情況之下，雖然都是未知數，談的結果怎麼樣我們也不敢抱持樂觀，但是我們要準備好，所以現在盤點的情況怎麼樣了？準備好了沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在worst case就是32%的關稅，是最糟糕的時候，當我們面臨這32%關稅時應該怎麼做，然後我們如果能夠談到10%這樣的關稅，我們會有什麼樣的情境，這個就是分析，然後哪一些東西可能會被課32%，是不是我們的優勢商品、是不是我們的工業性商品、是不是互補性的商品，這裡面我們可以看，就是美國需要，但是只有臺灣可以供應，你課我32%，你的客戶還是要買單嘛。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長要好好地來盤點嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們確實都有盤點。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其是現在臺灣對美國的出口金額從2020年一直到2024年逐年增加，從505億一直到去年的1,114億，在這裡面占了52%的就是資通訊，所以現在雖然台積電……不要說台積電啦，雖然半導體跟藥品目前是暫時豁免，但是我們要談的就是，台積電已經過去投資了，現在投審會也在審查了，可不可以請美國在這方面給我們多一點利多，來保障、保護我們的產業？不然台積電就白白去美國投資，沒有獲得更多的優惠，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：委員的意見我們都會提供給談判小組的人員參考。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，本席也知道你們現在因應的方式就是特別預算增加880億，這880億，工業700億、農業180億，對這些產業來講真的是杯水車薪，不夠啦！在不夠的情形之下，現在是先應急啦，根本解決就是對等關稅趕快談，對我們才更加有利，所以也請你們好好盤點，現在不夠的部分……"],["郭部長智輝：是，這也需要大院各位委員的支持。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們會支持。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為產業太辛苦了，關稅提高的話，產業的成本就是提高，提高的話，萬一訂單減少就會裁員，裁員又會發生無薪假，再來就會失業，這是連帶關係，整個產業都會受到很大的衝擊，所以我們一定會支持應急的方式。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們趕快了解每個產業怎麼樣去輔導。"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部、勞動部都有在處理這件事。"],["呂委員玉玲：該轉型的部分都要去轉型。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這不夠的部分，本席在這邊也是要建議，去年超收的稅金是5,283億，也可以做產業的紓困基金，這個部分也請部長呈報給行政院。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會向上報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個也能夠解決我們產業的需求，這樣子好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來，剛剛有特別提到你們要盤整，要盤整去談的話，我們進口美國的部分，你們有沒有盤整他們進口我們將近30個品項的產品？這些產品你們有沒有去盤整？哪些我們也要釋出善意？除了台積電來談、這些半導體來談，其他它進口的一些品項裡面，有沒有我們可以調整他們進口臺灣關稅的部分？"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個關稅談判不是只有單一，他們總的來……"],["呂委員玉玲：當然是總的，我們自己要盤點嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然會盤點。"],["呂委員玉玲：這30個品項你有盤點嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有提供資料讓談判小組可以做參考。"],["呂委員玉玲：有盤點這30個品項嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：有嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有分析。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們盤整出來的數額，聽你們講是說夠，怎麼樣叫夠？你們有預估……"],["郭部長智輝：你說700億的部分是不是？"],["呂委員玉玲：不是，就是美國進口這30個品項，你們看看哪些品項可以降低關稅來釋出我們的善意，跟美國可以進一步的對談。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在都會盤點。"],["呂委員玉玲：你說盤點好了？"],["郭部長智輝：其實我們從美國進口的工業性產品不多，倒是我們賣到美國的東西，工業性產品多於農業性產品。現在農業性產品是美國進到臺灣的比較多，比我們輸到美國的農業性產品多，所以我們會綜合去討論。其實要解決這個關稅的問題有很多的方法，行政院有分配各部門，大家應該分工合作，然後提供給談判小組一些有利的談判資訊。我們跟委員報告也都是一樣，當然委員有更好的指教，也希望委員能夠告訴我們。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛就建議了這幾項嘛，尤其半導體的部分……"],["郭部長智輝：對，你剛才那些好的意見我們都會轉達，會向上報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，因為剛剛提到的是台積電半導體都到美國去投資了，你要增加1,000億，投審會都在審查了。現在美國也把半導體作為他們的主軸利益，所以他們一定會非常的重視。"],["郭部長智輝：這是非常有利的一個條件。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，投審會這邊要加強審查，我們也可以拿這個當籌碼跟美國來談。"],["郭部長智輝：當然、當然。"],["呂委員玉玲：讓這個有更多的利多給我們，來保護我們的產業。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員提示。"],["呂委員玉玲：這樣子半導體或者藥品可以永久豁免，這才是重點，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：加油、加油！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請賴瑞隆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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11:25:08","影片長度":"00:12:06","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 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匣經費拿來就你會有一年你在法規還沒有明定之前你一年內一年內就很混沌不明所以我想這個都是我們要預想出來的問題因為這個混沌不明會造成選手跟所謂的教練權益受損的問題"},{"start":181.152,"end":206.457,"text":"那我再簡單就是說先請部長說明一下或請署長說明就是說我們後續這個國民體育法要如何的修法另外就是說未來運動部跟教育部執掌的規劃是不是可以說明一下你們最近開會一次的進度到哪裡那對於我剛剛提到這些問題那有什麼樣部分是覺得相對困難的地方"},{"start":208.045,"end":224.442,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們運動部這個成立以後在這個體育教學在人才培育包括全民運動怎麼樣去跟教育部跟體育運動部來做分工事實上也跟委員報告我們不管是這個副院長或者我們這個政委"},{"start":227.25,"end":245.757,"text":"然後召集我們這個跨部會包含我們體育署還有我們教育部目前由張亮這個次長來主要負責督導事實上已經有召開非常多的包含我們所關心的法令上的盤點包含這個全民運動又我們包含這個小學這一個專任教練"},{"start":251.019,"end":269.726,"text":"那到底要怎麼結合社區的這個俱樂部包含這個全民運動 校園開放然後跟第一線上的這些老師專業老師做一些討論事實上都有形成了一些共識那我想這委員所關心的這是我們在這一段籌備時間陸續都在進行的那詳細的是不是請這個鎮署長來補充說明"},{"start":275.948,"end":302.066,"text":"鮑委員我們其實重點在分為學校體育場地游泳教學體育班專門教練基優生升學已經適應運動適應體育等等其實我們開了不只超過七次的會議那我們談得非常非常的細我們還持續在進行所以我們相信在運動部成立之前我們跟國教署以及甚至未來有可能牽涉到高教師以及記者是都有一個很好明確的分工我們會在確保在掛牌之前把這件事情把它做好"},{"start":303.066,"end":319.634,"text":"因為剛剛部長也有提到像說小學因為現在就是有現場的小學的老師來反映就是說像國小非體育專長的教師培育計畫那因為未來的業務不確定由誰來主管所以老師會一度很擔心這個計畫會被中斷但就國小非體育專長的教師培育計畫這個例子來看就好"},{"start":325.256,"end":339.79,"text":"你後續到底是運動部主管還是教育部主管那我也想請問說那能不能保證說在運動部成立後法規還沒有完備前那包括老師啊 學生或運動教練或選手或特定的運動團體等等這些會不會因為這個職長不確定性這個計畫會受到影響"},{"start":345.25,"end":367.711,"text":"跟委員報告感謝委員提醒但是我想運動部的一個成立從教育部的體育署成立一個新的一個運動部我想我們就希望透過運動部能夠有一個更好的一個這個運動人才的培育或者是運動產業讓大家透過全民運動然後能夠更健康"},{"start":370.033,"end":391.176,"text":"雖然有分工但是不要忘掉他是一個團隊他還是有合作的所以有關這個一般的體育教學我想我利用這個機會讓我們所有的小學的老師怎麼樣讓一般的老師能夠有體育的這個相關運動上的一個真人這是我們積極在做的那另外"},{"start":392.779,"end":417.303,"text":"分工以後我們事實上一定會有更多的一些緊密的合作我想也謝謝委員提醒但我也利用這個機會讓我們這個第一線上的老師不管運動教練請放心我們一定會有一個非常周全的一些支持的系統希望更多的資源來挹注我們在中小學教育的這個體育教學包括人才培育"},{"start":417.363,"end":439.319,"text":"OK 好希望你們這個充分的準備讓那個基層的老師沒有擔憂那另外我們運動部成立的很大一個項目的業務就是要全民運動推廣全民運動跟扶植運動產業那體育署在今年2月有公布一項2023年度你們所做的我國民眾運動消費支出的調查報告"},{"start":440.681,"end":467.324,"text":"那這個調查報告我本期要跟您討論就是我聚焦在學生族群的這個運動推廣的這個政策就是所謂的青春動資券那我前面有提到說這個報告裡面其實我們受訪的青年他多數是很肯定青年動資券的那真的確實有提升運動看比賽的意願那可是目前就是說"},{"start":468.404,"end":485.891,"text":"這個青年動資券是從動資網領用那有青年就認為說其實網站的形式操作上很不容易像說要先登記再領取那這兩個階段都需要輸入個人資料那動作重複性很高而且手機的版本的動資"},{"start":487.972,"end":515.13,"text":"動資網的介面也比較不容易可以找到那個QR Code的位置那另外有的人會預先把折抵QR Code的截圖先存在手機可是你的QR Code又限當日使用所以很多的青年就在現場重複取得QR Code這個流程那會有點麻煩那有些青年會說那個碰到業者也不曉得自家可不可以用動資券那也不太會操作所以也沒有辦法輔導所以很多青年是建議說"},{"start":517.652,"end":530.366,"text":"他們有那個專屬的APP那店家在那個櫃檯放收款的QR code也有放牌子可以讓使用者去掃那這樣就比較方便那我想我也看了一下動資網跟文化幣"},{"start":532.488,"end":552.735,"text":"這網路使用的介面文化幣的網站確實可以讓使用者很直覺在首頁就瀏覽最近有什麼藝人活動啦 電影啦 展覽等等可是我們動資網就相對陽春了就是說我們在動資網是用營業列別去分類讓使用者去搜尋"},{"start":554.155,"end":576.03,"text":"可是你用營業類別去分類的話這個學生其實很難懂所以有青藤先生真的要來參考文化幣的APP的藝文消費點的地圖有這個消費點的地圖我們使用者就可以依據所在位置去查詢周遭可以使用動資券的地方所以我想本席針對剛剛提到這個問題是不是我們體育署有相關的規劃改善的措施"},{"start":581.233,"end":599.76,"text":"包委員謝謝您那個剛兩階段的部分主要是因為要防避因為之前有到臨的情況所以有兩階段的一個認證那其他您剛提到的不管是APP不管是網頁的呈現體育署雖然在文化設計方面很微微不如文化部但是我們會跟他們學習謝謝委員的建議我們會回去做好好的改善"},{"start":600.06,"end":614.874,"text":"好 所以做一個APP很重要啦就是說跟文化必要有做一個APP那我想目前因為可以領用動資券的那個年紀是16到22那我大致看一下使用的情形喔去年領券率是38%"},{"start":616.215,"end":637.029,"text":"那今年到4月7號為止領捐率差不多17.53%整體使用狀況其實並不高所以是不是有什麼樣精進的措施來提高鼓勵年輕人來使用動資券那後續有沒有像文化幣一樣年齡往下延伸那這個是不是有什麼計畫"},{"start":638.07,"end":658.108,"text":"我們有提出一些進進的方案包括我們可能未來要拜託跟國教署高教技職師一起來協助就是我們在學校舉辦的體育相關的活動、課程、社團、校隊還有我們一些家長有讓孩子們在高中的階段有一些運動相關的一些課程其實都可以來學習"},{"start":658.829,"end":676.54,"text":"推廣所以我們也會接觸家長的這方面的一個協會請他們來協助一起宣導其實學校端他們的運動相關的這個消費在校內發生的其實學校也可以來申請成為店家那我們跟UBike也有結合在全台灣的風景區大概從4月底開始有UBike的情況"},{"start":679.262,"end":697.024,"text":"這些也都可以結我們的青春動之券所以我們其實有積極在努力在尋求運動文化這件事情我們也在討論是不是有一類是運動相關的展演或者是一些博覽會之類的我們是不是也把它納入這部分我們內部正在討論當中年齡向下延伸這部分"},{"start":698.205,"end":722.476,"text":"委員我這邊我再跟院方這邊做一個請那我是建議說或許說我們如果說有一些達到某些目標的使用者像說看運動賽事啊或者從事室內運動及戶外運動這三大項目都有使用過的人針對這些人來加碼或者說寒暑假也可以加碼這個也提高他們要使用的這個意願啦好 以上謝謝署長 謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝怡謹 札韋部長 署長請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時13分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長跟鄭署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。首先還是來關心一下，我們運動部即將在8月就要掛牌上市、掛牌成立，剩下不到半年的時間，身為運動迷的我，其實非常期待運動發展有新的篇章。可是運動部成立，我們有很多事情要調整，像教育部的業務分工、學生運動員的培訓、選拔，還有比賽跟輔導，還有各級學校專任運動教練的聘任跟考核等業務要怎麼分工、分配、合作等問題，從法規面來看，確實有很多需要跟著修正，尤其是國民體育法，我們光看章名就好，國民體育法第二章是學生體育；第三章是全民運動，不過運動部成立之後，學校體育就歸教育部管轄；全民運動是歸運動部管轄，而這個法規的名稱叫做國民體育法，是不是隨著運動部的成立，顯得這個國民體育法必須要翻修、要修法，不然就顯得很不合時宜。","之前本辦有跟體育署來做了解，就是運動部跟教育部的職掌分工，還有法規修正的方向，體育署初步有跟我們報告相關的討論進度，目前還是在廣泛蒐集意見的階段，等各業務單位釐清業務職掌跟政策方向，再提報行政院來做討論。","當時體育署也有提到，運動部組織法通過的附帶決議有提到，運動部應於成立後一年內完成前述法律及其他相關增訂法律之研商。我可以理解的是，目前運動部長因為還沒有確定由誰擔任，或許要等到新部長上任之後，依照部長的願景跟目標來細緻地修正法規。可是我還是要提醒一點，運動部的籌備應該跟法規的修正並行討論，因為等運動部成立之後，法規修正也才能快速跟上，不然你在一年內相關的業務推行，恐怕就會很麻煩，像教育部跟運動部的一些職掌，可能會相互推諉卸責，或者會說等法規備齊再來說，可是有一些計畫可能會變成地方很難去執行，或是這個錢到底由誰管轄、經費哪裡來，就是你會有一年的時間，在法規還沒有明定之前，這一年內就會很混沌不明，所以這都是我們要預想出來的問題，因為這個混沌不明會造成選手跟所謂教練權益受損的問題。","再來，請部長或署長簡單說明一下我們國民體育法後續要如何的修法。另外，未來運動部跟教育部職掌的規劃，是不是可以說明一下，你們最近一次開會的進度到哪裡？對於我剛提到的這些問題，有什麼部分覺得是相對困難的地方？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心我們運動部成立以後，在體育教學、在人才培育、在全民運動等等，教育部跟運動部怎麼樣來做分工，事實上，也跟委員報告，不管是副院長或者政委，都有召集跨部會會議，包含我們體育署還有我們教育部，目前主要是由張廖次長負責督導，而且已經召開非常多次的會議，包含委員所關心的，包括法令上的盤點，包含全民運動的小學專任教練到底要怎麼結合社區俱樂部，包含全民運動的校園開放，然後跟第一線上的這些老師、專業老師做一些討論，事實上都有形成了一些共識，委員所關心的這些，我們在這一段籌備時間中陸續都有在進行，詳細的部分，我請鄭署長來做補充說明。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們的重點分為學校體育場地、游泳教學體育班、專任教練、績優生升學、適應運動、適應體育等等，其實我們開了超過7次的會議，談得非常非常細，而且還在持續進行中，所以我們相信在運動部成立之前，我們跟國教署甚至未來有可能牽涉到的高教司以及技職司，都會有一個很好、明確的分工，我們會確保在掛牌之前把這件事情做好。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為剛剛部長也有提到像小學，因為現在有小學現場的老師來反映，像國小非體育專長的教師培育計畫，因為未來的業務不確定由誰來主管，所以老師會一度很擔心這個計畫會被中斷，就以國小非體育專長的教師培育計畫這個例子來看就好，後續到底是由運動部主管還是教育部？我也想請問，能不能保證在運動部成立後，法規還沒有完備前，包括老師、學生、運動教練、運動選手、特定運動團體等等，他們不會因為相關職掌的不確定性，使得這個計畫會受到影響？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，感謝委員提醒，運動部的成立，從教育部的體育署，然後成立一個新的運動部，我們希望透過運動部能夠有一個更好的體育、運動人才的培育，或者是運動產業，讓大家透過全民運動，能夠更健康。雖然這有分工，但是不要忘掉它是一個團隊，也是有合作的，所以有關一般的體育教學，我利用這個機會讓我們所有的小學老師瞭解，怎麼樣讓一般的老師能夠在體育相關運動上的增能，這是我們積極在做的。","另外，在分工以後，我們事實上一定會有更多的緊密合作，也謝謝委員提醒，但我也利用這個機會，讓我們第一線上的老師，不管是運動教練或是其他等等瞭解，請放心，我們一定會有一個非常周全的支持系統，希望有更多的資源來挹注中小學教育的體育教學，包括人才的培育。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，希望你們充分準備，讓基層的老師沒有擔憂。另外，運動部成立有一個很大項目的業務就是要推廣全民運動跟扶植運動產業，體育署在今年2月公布了一項2023年度你們所做的「我國民眾運動消費支出調查報告」，對於這個調查報告，本席要跟您討論的是聚焦在學生族群運動推廣的這個政策，也就是所謂的青春動滋券，我前面有提到，在這個報告裡面，其實受訪青年多數是很肯定青年動滋券的，真的確實有提升運動及看比賽的意願；可是目前這個青年動滋券是從動滋網領用，有青年就認為網站形式在操作上很不容易，像是要先登記再領取，這兩個階段都需要輸入個人資料，動作重複性很高，而且手機版本的動滋網介面也比較不容易找到QR code的位置。另外，有人會預先把折抵的QR code截圖存在手機，但這個QR code又限當日使用，所以很多青年就在現場重複取得QR code，這個流程有點麻煩。有些青年說，碰到的業者不曉得自家可不可以用動滋券，也不大會操作，也沒有辦法輔導，所以很多青年建議可以參照文化幣，他們有專屬的app，店家在櫃臺收款也有放QR code的牌子，可以讓使用者去掃，這樣就比較方便。","我看了一下動滋網跟文化幣的網路使用介面，文化幣網站確實可以讓使用者很直覺的在首頁瀏覽最近有什麼藝文活動、電影、展覽等等，可是動滋網就相對陽春了，動滋網是用營業類別去分類，讓使用者去搜尋，可是用營業類別去分類的話，對學生而言其實很難懂，所以有青年建議真的要參考文化幣app的藝文消費點地圖，有這個消費點的地圖，使用者就可以依據所在位置去查詢周遭可以使用動滋券的地方，針對本席剛剛提到的這個問題，體育署是不是有相關的規畫及改善措施？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，謝謝你，剛剛那個兩階段主要是為了防弊，因為之前有盜領的情況，所以有兩階段的認證。其他您提到的，不管是app或是網頁的呈現，體育署雖然在文化設計方面永遠不如文化部，但是我們會跟他們學習，謝謝委員的建議，我們會回去好好的做改善。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，所以做一個app很重要，就是跟文化幣一樣做一個app。目前可以領用動滋券的年紀是16到22歲，我大致看一下使用的情形，去年領券率是38%，今年到4月7號為止，領券率差不多17.53%，其實整體使用狀況並不高，所以是不是有什麼樣精進的措施來提高並鼓勵年輕人使用動滋券？後續有沒有規劃像文化幣一樣把年齡往下延伸？這是不是有什麼計畫？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們有提出一些精進的方案，包括我們未來可能要拜託國教署、高教技職司一起來協助，我們在學校舉辦體育相關的活動、課程、校隊，還有一些家長讓孩子在高中階段有一些運動相關的課程，這些都可以來推廣，所以我們也會接觸家長這方面的協會，請他們協助一起宣導，學校端與運動相關的消費，在校內發生的，其實學校也可以來申請成為店家。","我們跟UBike也有結合，全臺灣的風景區大概從4月底開始，有UBike的也都可以結合我們的青春動滋券，所以我們其實有積極在努力在尋求……"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["鄭署長世忠：關於運動文化這件事情，我們也在討論一些和運動相關的展演或者是博覽會之類的是不是也把它納入，這部分我們內部正在討論當中。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那年齡向下延伸呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：委員，這部分我再跟院方這邊做一個……"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我建議，如果有一些達到某些目標的使用者，像是看運動賽事，或者從事室內運動及戶外運動者，針對這三大項目都有使用過的人來加碼，或是寒暑假也可以加碼，也提高他們使用的意願。以上，謝謝署長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝宜瑾召委，部長、署長，請回座。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce966737ed167142d479a8b3a3b5782fdd2eb6e21b32d8c6be2d0461bc9268856f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:56:52 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排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢"},{"start":62.649,"end":85.131,"text":"現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉 當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前 他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長 沒有請假 沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢 居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張"},{"start":87.01,"end":113.964,"text":"韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來"},{"start":115.104,"end":127.5,"text":"當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來 高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假"},{"start":130.261,"end":151.211,"text":"這當然該譴責 同樣的標準當然該譴責 更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假 什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯"},{"start":152.455,"end":166.259,"text":"意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後 我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸"},{"start":171.101,"end":195.066,"text":"立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案 召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條"},{"start":196.989,"end":221.715,"text":"給予他們不用來規避迴避監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊"},{"start":222.754,"end":237.725,"text":"所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天"},{"start":243.001,"end":265.22,"text":"更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛"},{"start":267.938,"end":293.055,"text":"所以就程序 論程序 該譴責就譴責 標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好 謝謝主席 不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題 就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看將來沒關係 我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣 因為我當召委就是部會首長"},{"start":294.116,"end":316.621,"text":"不是不能請假 如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴我 然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的"},{"start":317.537,"end":337.987,"text":"同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度"},{"start":338.527,"end":339.388,"text":"其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的"},{"start":357.364,"end":372.11,"text":"這個立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪那言論自由也不是無法五天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛"},{"start":372.93,"end":391.622,"text":"但是言論自由一樣不是因為它是自由就可以無法無天它同樣要受制於法規的規範所以鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣我多次在委員會分享"},{"start":393.104,"end":410.692,"text":"吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由"},{"start":411.667,"end":430.296,"text":"但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種"},{"start":436.408,"end":458.204,"text":"一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種"},{"start":459.676,"end":475.833,"text":"一種是在台灣釋放的 支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規 我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是復查 柏中你知道嗎"},{"start":477.473,"end":494.663,"text":"這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判"},{"start":496.054,"end":517.282,"text":"陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變"},{"start":520.441,"end":548.554,"text":"本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎"},{"start":551.909,"end":564.827,"text":"很抱歉我沒有看過這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者"},{"start":566.125,"end":587.925,"text":"當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這部紀錄片拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名"},{"start":591.127,"end":618.741,"text":"那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖下一頁但是換了到台北市"},{"start":619.821,"end":645.043,"text":"您知道嗎 同樣的一部片在台北市是青年局辦的 本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討"},{"start":646.614,"end":669.157,"text":"縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎"},{"start":671.192,"end":679.498,"text":"當然不是言論自由嘛 對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡"},{"start":680.973,"end":709.778,"text":"我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放"},{"start":710.731,"end":736.628,"text":"但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由他不是單選題他有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化"},{"start":738.311,"end":765.184,"text":"不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都再一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當"},{"start":767.685,"end":779.734,"text":"在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下業我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法"},{"start":780.868,"end":807.022,"text":"德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義"},{"start":808.291,"end":821.267,"text":"也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法"},{"start":822.267,"end":850.118,"text":"要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的再下一頁"},{"start":852.975,"end":874.981,"text":"芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑"},{"start":879.262,"end":896.879,"text":"這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁"},{"start":898.052,"end":923.168,"text":"當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利 孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全 這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢 夏業"},{"start":924.574,"end":951.389,"text":"台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際局勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長"},{"start":955.202,"end":975.897,"text":"我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嘛不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好 下一頁"},{"start":977.796,"end":999.219,"text":"我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們廳長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益"},{"start":999.759,"end":1024.318,"text":"所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以"},{"start":1025.879,"end":1054.331,"text":"剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的"},{"start":1055.111,"end":1073.025,"text":"那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的合照相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁"},{"start":1073.906,"end":1093.187,"text":"所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制"},{"start":1094.181,"end":1112.756,"text":"要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒市政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且首都與目的之間必須有重要的關聯"},{"start":1113.917,"end":1136.967,"text":"所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享 國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問 不管是賣菜的朋友 還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼 很重要很重要 言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣 大家都有這樣子的共識 但是"},{"start":1137.907,"end":1156.324,"text":"有那個自由 不可以去說要台領導幾幾歲啊 不可以說叫我過來打台灣 血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友 我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案 讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面 來看待這個嚴肅的問題"},{"start":1158.986,"end":1174.766,"text":"鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場 也是我的結論好 我們繼續加油 辛苦大家 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們接下來休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時57分）謝謝主席。在我進入質詢之前，我也有權宜問題要表達一下，我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示，還有王鴻薇委員所說的，如果說來列席委員會備詢的官員要經一定程序的請假，這是尊重委員會，也是尊重召委，所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有循這樣子的程序，剛剛召委說，是到現場才知道請假的話，那當然不應該，要檢討；那要譴責，我也保留，我也覺得OK啦！這是共同的決定。","同樣我就想到4月2號上週三那一天，我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員，他排的案是國會擴建、遷建的進度報告，邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長，現在坐在這裡的是吳召委，而當天是莊瑞雄委員，他7點就坐在這裡等著開會了，到開會前，他手上拿的出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長，沒有請假，所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備質詢，可是居然會議時間開始召委才收到一張韓國瑜院長燙金的書函，替周萬來秘書長請假。所以如果比照這個標準，當天當然在場的委員會委員多數是民進黨的委員，我們認為這是不應當，就同樣的標準，居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔！主席還是今天到場的時候，請假單已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來，當天的狀況是我們都在這裡，沒有請假單，周萬來要來、高百祥要來，可是主席在那裡已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張，還是由院長替秘書長請假，這當然該譴責，同樣的標準，當然該譴責。更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條，為了替周萬來請假，什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯，他當天引用的法條的意思是說，我講白話文，以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付，如果這樣成立的話，主席今天沒有辦法排這個案耶！因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付。立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件、因應大家關心的議案，召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告，就如同今天吳召委所排的案子，應當好好探討言論自由啊！為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周萬來、為了護航議事不公的人員，然後引用錯誤的法條，給予他們不用來規避、迴避監督的保護傘，更進一步剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權、審議議案的職權，如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話，今天很遺憾，這個專案報告沒有院會交付，也不能排啊！所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由，不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由，所以我用一樣的標準，今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員，該譴責！該檢討！但是當天更加嚴重離譜的是在開會之後才讓召委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假，請問以後可以由行政院卓院長在各個委員會開會當天，現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭銘謙請假、卓榮泰院長替陸委會梁文傑副主委請假？不能這樣嘛！所以就程序論程序，該譴責就譴責，標準一致，就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣。謝謝主席，不好意思，我表達了我的意見。"],["主席：沒問題，就這個部分，我想我這邊會思考一下，看將來……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，我們都尊重你的裁示，我只是說大家委員會標準一致。"],["主席：今天多位委員的發言，我也都尊重。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝、謝謝。"],["主席：我們的委員會是這樣，因為我當召委，部會首長不是不能請假，如果真的有事情，當然是可以請假。"],["吳委員思瑤：當然，是，要循程序。"],["主席：我們以後大概就是用一個方式，可能多久前告訴我，讓我瞭解一下理由，這樣就好。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒問題。其實遊戲規則大家都知道，沒錯。"],["主席：我從來不會認為不能請假。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒錯。"],["主席：而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用……"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席、謝謝召委，沒有錯，謝謝。"],["主席：不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的同仁都一樣，就是一體適用，我今天的想法是這樣。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，一體適用，非常謝謝主席，不愧是檢察官，所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案，一體適用，謝謝您，沒問題……"],["主席：我們先訂一個制度出來，以後就照那個制度走……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我請鄭部長，還有程廳長。"],["主席：如果之前沒有那個制度，我們不知道，因為以前有沒有這個慣例，至少我們現在開始有一個制度，大家都照著這樣走。"],["吳委員思瑤：一定有慣例跟制度啦！我們在立法院都知道，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請問要請哪一位？"],["吳委員思瑤：我請部長跟廳長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、廳長。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席。其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的，立法委員的排案自由不容剝奪，言論自由也不是無法無天，立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪，但是它會受限於一些……當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案，言論自由一樣，不是因為它是自由，就可以無法無天，同樣要受制於法規的規範，所以鼓吹戰爭、仇恨及暴力都是法所不容，這是世界皆準的，不是只有在臺灣。","我多次在委員會分享，我吳思瑤個人從政是因為鄭南榕先生的自焚，那時候我十多歲，爭取百分之百的言論自由，在那個時代，對於一個青少年的吳思瑤來講，我是無比地震撼，因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上，我們要爭取百分之百的自由。但是以剛剛國民黨委員的發言，我真的要很遺憾地說，當年鄭南榕先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段，結束了他的生命來捍衛、彰顯臺灣需要言論自由，當初他對抗的就是執政威權獨裁的中國國民黨。到今天，我要說言論自由有兩種，一種是絕對的言論自由、人權的言論自由，另外一種是被政客、政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由，就這個標準來看，大家心中有個判準。今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委，我要說中配也有兩種，一種是在臺灣釋放支持武統、血洗臺灣的這種中配，當然依法規我支持公權力來執行；另外一種中配是富察，部長，你知道嘛！即出版社的負責人，他是中配，在臺灣就因為他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛、不喜歡的出版品，他到中國去被抓、被監禁，前陣子被判重刑，他沒有經過公開的審判。陸配有兩種，國民黨為什麼支持的是要血洗臺灣、鼓吹戰爭的陸配？而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援、支持富察，同樣是陸配，他在中國遭受司法迫害，國民黨沒有人站出來替他說話，所以說國民黨沒有變，本質上沒有變，把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具，這一點沒有變！但國民黨某種程度也變了，過去的國民黨反共，現在的國民黨不反共，我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由，我願意受公評，這是言論自由的範疇，但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範。","部長，您知道「國有器官」這部紀錄片嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：很抱歉，我沒有看過。"],["吳委員思瑤：這部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片，花了7年的時間，他們具體拍攝了一個軍醫，他是親眼目擊者、當事者，他見證中國高官為了可以延壽、為了高官的生命要延長，不惜對這些被迫害者，多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘，這部紀錄片拍攝7年，前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡紀錄片的提名，這個紀錄片在臺灣各縣市播放，在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說：如果你敢播的話，就要給你放炸彈還是什麼的。但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅，他們認為表意自由、言論自由、創作自由不容被打壓，這是在澎湖。但是換到臺北市，您知道嗎？同樣的一部片，在臺北市是青年局辦的，本來要播，後來就喊卡了，同樣的理由是他們也接獲了恐嚇信，揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊、投擲汽油彈，所以臺北市政府就決定喊卡不辦，基本上它受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的。","我在這裡沒有探討縣市政府的決策，但我要說的是兩個縣市政府看待這件事情的立場是不同的，這就是判準的自由，以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準。但我要問，如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說：我要來槍擊、要來投擲汽油彈。這是言論自由嗎？當然不是言論自由嘛，對不對？臺北市政府就基於這個，他們認為市民的安全更重要，認為那個當下要喊卡，我用這個案例來分享公權力的行使，也就是我們在言論自由，如果對於公共利益造成即時、危險、迫害、重大，而且是即時的話，基於公共利益，政府公權力是可以採取作為的。以「國有器官」的這件事情，臺北市政府一度喊卡，我非常希望臺北市政府能夠捍衛創作自由，讓它可以恢復播放，我不評論市政府的作為，但我要說的公權力在那個當下有他們的判準，因為恐嚇要暴力、丟汽油彈、槍擊，就不是言論自由嘛，對不對？這就是犯罪嘛！我們要預防嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是犯罪，這是恐嚇公眾罪。"],["吳委員思瑤：是！所謂的國家安全跟言論自由不是單選題，它有很多複雜的問題，但是我希望臺灣的政治工作者、立法委員不要簡單化、不要政治化。言論自由應有限制，是放諸四海皆準，我上次也分享過，不管是聯合國公民與政治權利國際公約，或者是聯合國言論自由特別報告，我今天特別找出來的是聯合國言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了，再一次揭示鼓吹戰爭、仇恨、煽動、歧視等言論都應當在民主程序下進行必要的限制，國際規範是這樣。我今天也花了很多時間整理各國的立法，德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識型態，明確在他們的刑法規範，面對歷史傷痕，慎防種族仇恨意識，所以德國刑法針對這些納粹言論的鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制，也有刑責。看看英國，對於煽動恐怖主義，2006年也特別立了恐怖主義法，所以任何煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪，這是英國的立法，重罪15年。看看法國，他們同樣以刑法禁止鼓吹恐怖主義行為，而且更與時俱進，因為現在社群網路的使用非常發達，它造成的危害是更即時的，所以法國甚至進一步在刑法修正當中，嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論加重刑罰。芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權國家，但是芬蘭長期以來也因為地緣政治承受戰爭的威嚇，所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機期間煽動戰爭處以重刑，芬蘭與臺灣的狀況非常接近。而日本不管是中央立法通過仇恨言論對策法，或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法予以禁止。當然我分享過美國最高法院9位大法官一致決對於TikTok的禁令是合憲的，他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok所涉1.7億用戶的自由權利孰高孰低，他們選擇了國家安全，這是最新的判例，這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢？臺灣跟國際接軌，言論自由不論是保障面、人權面，絕對百分之百是言論自由的面向，憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的，不論在保障或是必要的限制，立法限制針對仇恨、戰爭、暴力等等皆然，所以臺灣國內法的規範有違逆國際趨勢或是臺灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎？","部長，我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員，我說的都對嗎？不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例、入出國及移民法或者是刑法，對於暴力、仇恨、歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是於法所不容，而公權力當然要依法執法。","我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字第623號，廳長可能比較熟悉，它是針對為了防制、消弭兒少性交易，所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的……因為它會影響兒童身心發展的重大公益，所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制。廳長，要不要就這個部分簡要地跟大家分享，因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊，我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊，過去大法官解釋也都告訴我們，保障言論自由非常重要，但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要進行管制，廳長，可不可以簡要說明嗎？"],["程廳長怡怡：是，謝謝委員。這號解釋最主要是針對兒少性交易防制條例第二十九條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋，大法官闡釋其實性交易也是屬於商業言論所提供訊息之相關廣告，為了保障它的內容必須是真實無誤導性，而且以交易合法為目的，所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障。但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍、全部保護的，可以用法律來明確規定對它加以限制，所以宣告它是合憲。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我們兒少相關法規並沒有違憲，它是合憲性的。","這是我最終的結論，我上一次質詢的時候也拿了這一頁，但很不好意思，我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了，被某些黨派的委員剪成影片，認為吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制。而我說的是，對於言論自由的限制要嚴格、非常嚴謹地予以限制，它的目的要為重大迫切之政府利益，就如同剛剛的兒少事件，或者是臺北市政府針對「國有器官」，它認為公權力可能會有公共安全的危險，對不對？而且手段與目的之間必須有重要的關聯。所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享、國內法規的檢視，以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎紅線，我相信你去路上問，不管是買菜的朋友還是坐捷運的上班族，言論自由是什麼？很重要、很重要，言論自由沒有人可以戕害，在自由民主的臺灣，大家都有這樣子的共識，但是言論自由不能說要殺你們全家、不能說叫阿共過來打臺灣、血洗臺灣，這是正常的一般公民朋友……我們的公民素養是非常高的。","所以謝謝主席今天排這個案，讓我們可以進一步的探討，我也希望大家能夠站在法理面來看待這個嚴肅的問題，鄭南榕是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由，所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用，這是我的開場，也是我的結論，我們繼續加油，辛苦大家，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們接下來休息5分鐘。","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"159963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcefc0f67bd723f55d0eafc78fb10225fff2eb6e21b32d8c6be9c8886d814b768f25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:08:37 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夏業"},{"start":96.697,"end":118.196,"text":"學術交流是不是也成為台灣滲透的一個樣態本席曾經發布過一個臉書啦就是在國民黨發起罷免吳思瑤的這一位人士叫做張克進他其實過去我不知道他為何自稱文化人但他比較多的文化都是在對岸"},{"start":119.118,"end":120.921,"text":"包括中國相關的這些教育部門然後文宣部門統戰部門去頒發這個所謂這個認證給他那麼"},{"start":129.889,"end":156.004,"text":"他基本上他就是充滿了紅色履歷那麼他要來罷免一個被中國所認證是台獨幫手台獨推手的吳思堯我那時候就覺得說這真的很可笑所以我開始就去了解到學術單位來聘請人的時候對岸的學術單位來聘請人的時候是不是其實也充滿了紅色危機這個是本席所接收到的一個"},{"start":157.345,"end":165.092,"text":"算是爆料這一位稱作卓銀鏘他任職於閩南師範大學"},{"start":167.079,"end":190.694,"text":"那當時我就在想說這個人有什麼好來做爆料的呢為什麼他的任職有人要把這樣的一個提醒我來注意後來我去查了發現如果你要在閩南師範大學來做教授的話要被聘任的話你必須要有中國共產黨的黨籍也就是中國人民共和國的國籍那麼而且要對中國共產黨要有擁護"},{"start":193.456,"end":221.393,"text":"那我就想問不知道局長有沒有收到類似相關的情資這個人有在注意當中嗎因為我想要問的是他有中國籍嗎還是他是雙重國籍現在是沒有放棄台灣籍而我去了解這個人的時候我發現如果我上網Google過去他曾經在2023年有所謂拿政府標案最後不當裁員掏空的狀況那我本來想說如果他只是一個經濟犯"},{"start":222.794,"end":227.157,"text":"那又有什麼好注意的呢結果一查不得了從國防部的參謀本部再到國科會再到國安局再到法務部調查局他在2006年也就是馬英九執政的時期"},{"start":238.322,"end":254.369,"text":"他接了許多相關的標案而且當任主持人計劃人而他在2016年也就是政黨輪替之後他2017年2016年左右的時間他離開了公職相關單位所以我想詢問這樣的人他在2025年3月6號"},{"start":261.653,"end":288.915,"text":"然後現在到中國的閩南師範大學去這樣的人會不會是另外一個國安破口而這個國安破口是不是從學術的角度開始成為滲透另外要注意的部分先請局長回應對 這部分我們有在注意那也謝謝委員的提醒那有沒有可能透過一種學術的交流變成是一個國安在管理上要注意的一個漏洞這我們有在注意"},{"start":289.718,"end":299.772,"text":"好 所以說你們其實已經有在注意跟啟動相關的調查了嗎好 那麼我想要請就教一下保務部陳局長委員好局長 因為他曾經有參加過"},{"start":307.973,"end":328.641,"text":"法務資安整體防禦基礎建設先導案而且他還是技術顧問所以他掌握了多少資安方面的顧問為什麼我會從調查局先來問起是因為2015到2016是一個目前最近近台灣目前最近近現在2025的一個時間點"},{"start":330.982,"end":358.062,"text":"那麼他所了解我們的基礎建設當中到底滲入多少了解多少而他又可以帶走多少我們在資安上面的機密保護部有了解嗎報告委員您提到的這個採購案在來之前我是沒有了解到但是我回去以後我會馬上了解然後跟委員來報告好那國防部我想問一下軍情局"},{"start":361.752,"end":370.606,"text":"因為我們知道我們前一陣子中國有刻意的去洩露說我們所謂自痛電軍相關的這些人士當時國防部的回應會是說"},{"start":373.628,"end":395.021,"text":"這個可能是錯誤的資料假訊息或不重要但是我就想要問了相關的這個人他是不是真的掌握有具有戰略的價值的相關的核心技術跟資密那麼他是一個退役的軍情局的人員的時候那麼相關的這裡我們軍情局現在覺得是不是應該要有什麼防範首先跟委員報告第一個就是我們退役人員因為"},{"start":403.424,"end":431.453,"text":"他們掌握的訊息跟我們現在執行的工作是並不會有很大的影響因為第一個就是我們所有退役人員他本身具有管制期那他管制期管制過了之後大概一到三年的時間對於我們現行工作他基本上是不會有所了解的這是第一個"},{"start":432.403,"end":457.497,"text":"第二個那對於我們本局的退役人員我們會有很嚴格的管制我們必須要要求他主動申報好所以你很有信心你覺得因為他已經在2017年退役現在是2025年的4月了所以他沒有辦法掌握到核心技術他沒有向下的學弟沒有向上的學長可以有訊息做中間的傳遞"},{"start":458.958,"end":485.363,"text":"這邊跟委員補充報告其實我們局裡面有一項我們對於我們內部的審核機制我們始終在執行那我們所有人員的交流跟我們人員的出訪或者我們對外接觸的重要人員我們會定期不定期的都有做相關的檢查跟疑測的機制最後請問一下法務部調查局的資安處的張處長"},{"start":487.482,"end":510.207,"text":"處長因為會找您是因為我覺得這是最直接的關聯本席擔憂的就是如果今天資安就是國安不是只是一句所謂的口頭禪或者是口號的話那麼這樣的一個人他可能只是一個單獨的個案所以我不會要求在這裡把這個個案所有追查的進度或是狀況"},{"start":511.467,"end":531.753,"text":"來做說明但是如果就您所了解的話那麼這個有沒有可能成為一個資安的破口而從這個點是不是要全面的來做清查跟了解他以學術交流之名受聘到中國大陸去會不會把我們相關的資安的關鍵技術帶過去呢調查局怎麼看"},{"start":533.297,"end":561.886,"text":"是跟委員報告謝謝委員的提醒至於這個卓先生就我了解他並沒有在我們局裡面負責相關的資訊標案那是不是他有擔任我們標案的其他的公司的顧問這個我們還需要進一步清查但是有關卓銀腔的部分其實不是只有我們資安的部分那他涉及到其他國安的部分我們局裡面都整體的有組成專案在做一個調查"},{"start":562.838,"end":574.443,"text":"最後要把時間交給蔡局長其實我相信我先補充一下剛剛圖表上有提到好像有個國安局的資安建制案由這一位來擔任主持人沒有這個事情沒有這個標案嗎沒有我其實最後要請國安局"},{"start":582.246,"end":604.032,"text":"能夠持續來了解的部分就是當國安局已經注意到就是所謂的內應會透過所謂的民防透過內應在中共用武力犯台的同時的時候這個內應可能是透過所謂武裝部隊或者是相關的這個民軍民防來的時候另外一個破口可能會是我們的基礎建設或是資訊安全"},{"start":605.672,"end":626.395,"text":"那麼這個絕對只是一個其中的個案我沒有要您來討論個案但是從學術的滲透的角度以學術交流知名的角度而把台灣相關的重要的技術帶到中國去這個部分局長是不是也能夠把它列為一個主要的另外一個查查的另外一條線"},{"start":627.416,"end":643.885,"text":"這部分我們是有一些專案在處理那也謝謝委員的提醒那因為畢竟中共對台灣不管欠一攬柴他有管道非常的多元所以我們就是透過專案的機制讓我們國安情報團隊大家可以來分享情資那也針對這些個案來交換一些案況的理解那有必要的話就啟動檢調單位的偵辦"},{"start":645.826,"end":664.827,"text":"因為主席站起來了最後我想在修法面的部分因為像現在我們都只是針對就像剛剛幾位回答的官員都提到就是比如三年的保密啊四年的保密五年的保密等等加密程度但是對於海外任職我現在要提醒視訊時代他在海外任職他不一定需要出國"},{"start":666.068,"end":678.418,"text":"他來跟你視訊他一樣可以上課所以在相關其他的海外任職的規定的部分也許相關的單位不論是軍情及國安局或相關的單位可能也要針對修法的部分來與時俱進好嗎好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":656,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時8分）謝謝主席。主席，因為時間比較有限，所以我一次請國安局蔡局長、法務部調查局陳局長、軍情局鄧執行長，還有法務部調查局資安處張處長。","首先我先詢問蔡局長，局長，剛剛您談到有關整體的國安調查的時候，你有講到中國對於臺灣的滲透，國安局或者相關單位沒有不敢辦，只有看資料到哪裡我們辦到哪裡，而且沒有分顏色。本席聽了覺得非常開心，因為一直以來我在外交及國防委員會都非常關注中國的滲透，從過去我在質詢國防部的時候就提到，不論現役或退役軍人，他們因為資金的關係，所以有相關的地下匯兌又或者金融陷阱導致他們不得已成為共諜或洩密者，這個部分今天在報告當中也特別提出來了，159件當中有95人其實是現役或退役軍人，占了百分之六十，而且現在媒體也都報導出去了，就是在報告當中也提到會利用黑道跟暴力集團，所謂組織犯罪、地下錢莊等等來做掩護，顯然這個問題就如同賴總統所宣示的一樣，其實中國這個敵對勢力正在方方面面的入侵。本席想詢問的就是，除了您現在所提出來的這些樣態之外，有沒有注意到另外一個問題？那就是學術交流是不是也成為滲透臺灣的樣態？本席曾經發布過一則臉書，國民黨發起罷免吳思瑤的這一位人士，叫做張克晉，我不知道他為何自稱文化人，但他比較多的文化都是在對岸，包括中國的教育部門、文宣部門、統戰部門頒發所謂的認證給他。基本上，他就是充滿了紅色履歷，而他要來罷免一個被中國認證是臺獨推手的吳思瑤，我那時候就覺得這真的很可笑，所以我就開始去了解對岸的學術單位來聘請人的時候，是不是其實也充滿了紅色危機？","接著，本席所接收到的這個算是爆料。這一位稱作卓瑩鎗，任職於閩南師範大學，當時我就在想這個人有什麼好來爆料呢？為什麼有人要提醒我注意他的任職？後來我去查了發現，如果要在閩南師範大學被聘任為教授，必須要有中國共產黨的黨籍，也就是中國人民共和國的國籍而且要擁護中國共產黨。我就想問局長有沒有收到類似的情資？這個人有在注意當中嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["林委員楚茵：我想要問的是他有中國籍嗎？還是他是雙重國籍，現在沒有放棄臺灣籍？我去了解這個人的時候，上網google發現他曾經在2023年拿政府標案，最後有不當裁員、掏空的狀況。我本來想如果他只是一個經濟犯，那又有什麼好注意的呢？結果一查不得了，從國防部參謀本部到國科會、國安局，再到法務部調查局，他在2006年，也就是馬英九執政的時期，接了許多相關的標案，而且擔任主持人、計畫人。他在2016年，也就是政黨輪替之後，即2017年、2016年左右，離開了公職相關單位，所以我想詢問這樣的人在2025年3月6號到中國閩南師範大學，會不會是另外一個國安破口？而這個國安破口是不是從學術的角度開始成為滲透另外要注意的部分？先請局長回應。"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們有在注意，也謝謝委員提醒，有沒有可能透過學術交流，變成是國安在管理上要注意的漏洞，我們有在注意。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以你們已經有在注意跟啟動相關調查了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["林委員楚茵：我想要就教一下法務部陳局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：因為他曾經參加過法務資安整體防禦基礎建設先導案，而且還是技術顧問，所以他掌握了多少資安方面的顧問？為什麼我會從調查局先問起？因為2015到2016是一個目前最接近2025的時間點，他在我們的基礎建設當中，到底滲入多少、了解多少？而他又可以帶走多少我們在資安上面的機密？法務部有了解嗎？"],["陳局長白立：您提到的這個採購案，我在來之前沒有了解到，但是我回去以後會馬上了解，然後跟委員報告。"],["林委員楚茵：我想問一下國防部軍情局，因為我們知道前一陣子中國有刻意洩漏我們的資通電軍相關人士，當時國防部的回應是，這個可能是錯誤的資料、假訊息或不重要，但是我想要問，這一個人是不是真的掌握具有戰略價值的核心技術跟資密？當他是一個退役的軍情局人員，軍情局現在是不是應該要有什麼防範？"],["鄧執行長敦仁：首先跟委員報告，第一個、退役人員掌握的訊息對我們現在執行的工作，並不會有很大的影響，因為所有退役人員本身具有管制期，管制期過了之後，大概1到3年的時間，對於我們現行工作，基本上是不會有所了解的。這是第一個。第二個，對於本局的退役人員，我們會有很嚴格的管制，我們必須要求他主動申報。"],["林委員楚茵：所以你很有信心，你覺得因為他已經在2017年退役，現在是2025年4月了，所以他沒有辦法掌握到核心技術，他沒有向下的學弟、沒有向上的學長，可以有訊息做中間的傳遞？"],["鄧執行長敦仁：跟委員補充報告，其實本局始終在執行內部的審核機制，我們所有人員的交流跟出訪或者對外接觸的重要人員，我們定期、不定期都有做相關檢查跟儀測的機制。"],["林委員楚茵：最後，請問一下法務部調查局資安處張處長，會找您是因為我覺得這是最直接的關聯。本席擔憂的是，如果今天資安就是國安，不只是一句所謂的口頭禪或者口號，這樣的人可能只是一個單獨的個案，所以我不會要求在這裡把這個個案所有追查的進度或是狀況說明，但是就您所了解，這個有沒有可能成為一個資安的破口？而從這個點是不是要全面的來清查跟了解？他以學術交流之名受聘到中國大陸，會不會把我們相關的資安關鍵技術帶過去呢？調查局怎麼看？"],["張處長尤仁：謝謝委員提醒。至於這個卓先生，就我了解，他並沒有在本局負責相關的資訊標案，他是不是有擔任其他標案的公司顧問，我們還需要進一步清查。但是有關卓瑩鎗，其實不是只有資安的部分，涉及到其他國安的部分，本局都整體組成專案在調查。"],["林委員楚茵：最後，要把時間交給蔡局長。其實我相信……"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，我先補充一下，剛剛那個圖表上有提到，有一個國安局的資安建置案由這位來擔任主持人，沒有這個事情。"],["林委員楚茵：沒有這個標案嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：好。我最後要請國安局持續來了解的部分就是，當國安局已經注意到所謂的民防透過內應，在中共用武力犯臺的同時，這個內應可能是透過武裝部隊或者是民軍民防，另外一個破口可能會是我們的基礎建設或是資訊安全，這個絕對只是其中的個案，我沒有要您討論個案。但是從學術滲透的角度、以學術交流之名的角度，而把臺灣重要的技術帶到中國，局長是不是也能夠把它列為主要查察的另外一條線？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們有一些專案在處理，也謝謝委員提醒，畢竟中共對臺灣不管竊密、攬才，管道非常多元，所以我們就是透過專案的機制，讓國安情報團隊可以分享情資，也針對這些個案來交換一些案況的理解，有必要的話，就啟動檢調單位偵辦。"],["林委員楚茵：因為主席站起來了。最後，我想在修法面的部分，因為像現在我們都只是針對……就像剛剛幾位回答的官員也都提到，比如3年保密、4年保密、5年保密等等的加密程度，但是對於海外任職，我現在要提醒，視訊時代在海外任職不一定需要出國，透過視訊一樣可以上課，所以在海外任職的其他規定，也許相關單位，不論是軍情局、國安局，可能也要針對修法的部分來與時俱進，好嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員上臺質詢。","接下來由楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce06e85bca76fa2846a0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6be2ee760386b7cab395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:06:44 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我想我剛才也有講過了880億是特別預算在現階段馬上能夠紓困止血對這些中小微企業的部分"},{"start":88.72,"end":103.992,"text":"那對於這個中期來講中期所謂的也不要講說中期就是說目前在處理的第一個階段我們是這個樣子那第二個階段當我們第一個階段結束的時候發現有必要再持續來協助"},{"start":106.013,"end":120.305,"text":"那持續來進行的時候這個預算我相信是會再增加的會再增加的那但是這一些因為是屬於特別預算需要大院各位委員的支持所以我在說什麼情況下我知道啊但是"},{"start":121.756,"end":139.13,"text":"剛才你們說啦我們有非常多套的劇本我也認同我們談判絕對不能只有一套劇本但是在什麼樣子的情況下我們要給企業信心啊我們在什麼樣子的情況下會要對我們的傳產對我們的農業在提高我們特別預算什麼樣情況下報告委員因為我們現在還沒有"},{"start":150.953,"end":172.959,"text":"我們雖然有掌握這整個情勢啦但是每一家廠商對應這個環境的變異他需要的協助程度是不一樣的我不是每一家直接乘上多少家宿我們不是這樣子做而是直接的去訪談接觸這一些可以講說這些有受到影響的這一些廠商"},{"start":174.019,"end":193.698,"text":"我們來協助他需要什麼樣的協助這個是不一樣的我們有很多他可能在生產上面需要我們協助可能在訂單調整上面需要我們協助可能在金融上面需要我們協助但是產銷人發財太多了我知道我必須要去identify這一些他需要你什麼時候可以identify"},{"start":194.238,"end":208.719,"text":"我们现在都在进行中进行中我们现在我们整个产业发展署我们的中小企业署我们的园区管理局我们大概四个单位在进行所谓厂商的访谈"},{"start":210.043,"end":238.681,"text":"所以我们分别第一个我们跟我们比较高阶的同仁是跟这个工会产业工会去做一些座谈对实际上的厂商我们都一一的去访谈我相信这样子得到的讯息会比较正确而不是大家用那个假设性的这个讯息所以对我们来讲我们虽然是这样但是我们希望能够对症下药"},{"start":239.571,"end":264.869,"text":"然後來協助他們好那什麼時候談什麼時候去美國談啊納坦雅胡對不對以色列總理他已經去美國談他們就零關稅你們希望的目標是零關稅是不是你從零關稅開始談嗎從零關稅看你們自己的目標勒你們自己設定的目標有沒有辦法像以色列一樣談到零關稅"},{"start":266.736,"end":293.556,"text":"這個是談判的這個談判小組他們的目標啦 設定啦齁我們是盡量以不影響國內的生態然後創造有競爭優勢的的這樣的情境啦齁然後讓這個這個談判小組的人能夠跟對方來談我想這個有很多的這種give and take所以還沒有確定什麼時候談你看"},{"start":295.529,"end":323.21,"text":"石破茂他已經跟川普通電話了那他們就是優先去談那我們到底什麼時候我們比較low key啦所以我們要low profile去進行這件事情不需要那麼樣那怎樣我們是要隱藏起來我們是隱藏起來還是已經談了那個報告委員我們一定是這樣子一定在這個priority在前面的group"},{"start":324.298,"end":329.401,"text":"你已經確定我們是在Priority Group在韓國之後嗎?會不會在韓國之後?"},{"start":336.427,"end":363.782,"text":"我們主要的競爭你們都一直在談嘛只要我們不比我們主要的競爭對手的關稅還要就是高的情況下我們就有保持我們的貿易優勢但是目前我們就比日韓都還要高啊是不是報告委員那個韓國跟美國啊他們是這個FTA的"},{"start":365.879,"end":383.77,"text":"所以你認為我們這樣子的情況已經比過去好是不是不是比過去好了我的意思就是說不針對單一的命題去做一個假設我們是談整體的對我們中華民國"},{"start":384.83,"end":411.835,"text":"有幫助的對我們整個台灣的企業這個產業能夠穩住在台灣製造台灣生產這個是我們最大的目的所以你還是不確定什麼時候開始談我現在都在進行中好那對於美國所要求的消除貿易障礙的部分我們有沒有辦法做到在著作權方面呢"},{"start":412.694,"end":434.627,"text":"報告委員消除貿易障礙的部分很多是基於文化跟習慣的這個部分所以我們會跟對方溝通解釋說明台灣為什麼做了這些措施會引起他們認為是貿易障礙我想從這個地方去溝通那他們會去溝通會去談判"},{"start":436.468,"end":455.697,"text":"我認為我們必須要表達為什麼要做這個事情才有辦法再去做談的內容啦對不對這是give and take的部分嘛所以這個很重要美國認為重要的事情我們可能有疏忽或者是我們認為重要的事情美國他們不清楚所以這個很難談我想"},{"start":457.678,"end":472.552,"text":"談判啊像我跟劉主委我們在民間大概每一年這種重大談判都會碰到一兩次我這一輩子大概民間做50年的工作我大概有150次談判的這個經驗所以你會去談是不是就我們的經驗來講所以你會代表去談"},{"start":474.073,"end":495.05,"text":"沒有沒有我們兩個就是提供我們過去的經驗讓談判小組去談這些事情我想很多的事情我們過去的經驗可能是很久的經驗那他們現在談判小組他們與時俱進啊他們是專家我們是在外面談商業的部分所以我們可以提供一點經驗"},{"start":496.351,"end":515.69,"text":"那我的意思就是說談判通常會站在give and take的這個角度上面然後取得一定的平衡那這個裡面我們當然講說非貿易障礙這塊的東西不是數字可以解讀的而是要從文化習慣各方面來綜合考量"},{"start":516.798,"end":543.17,"text":"取得對方的諒解或者取得對方的同意或者取得對方的知曉我想這一方面有助於溝通啦我們只是提供這樣的意見好 你站第一排太久了是不是讓那個留住我一下主委喔剛才你在你的報告裡面提到喔就是美國的市場其實算全球市場的就是不是全部啊"},{"start":544.369,"end":551.984,"text":"那有86%是其他的市場可是我要給你看的是我們的數字我們國家的數字"},{"start":556.94,"end":574.308,"text":"這是我國對就是主要的出口數字你看到了我們的數字裡面對中國大陸與香港在我們總出口量的31.7%對美國是23.4%對東協東協也是在這一次對美國來講也是重大的損損失的國家是18.5%那我想請問我們要轉去哪裡"},{"start":587.233,"end":616.056,"text":"我們現在要轉去哪裡委員是這樣子其實我們在很多新興的市場我們其實都還有很大的成長空間那對我們來講的話其實對廠商而言在這個時候它兩個大的可能只有三種比較可能大的方向第一個是供應鏈移轉往美國走或者是找到一個最適合生產地譬如說稅率10%的地方另外一個角度是它就市場上面進行分散"},{"start":617.056,"end":644.789,"text":"進行分散像最近崛起的印度市場土耳其市場其實也蠻多台灣廠商走到裡面那從這裡面賺到一桶金所以我們只是希望幫大家找到很多替代市場然後呢協助這些廠商往替代市場去發展對 問題是你找出替代市場的時候廠商會不會跟著政府的腳步走是不是廠商會不會跟著是不是你沒有提供足夠的誘因是嗎"},{"start":645.806,"end":657.492,"text":"我們會提供誘因之外我們其實也跟一些協會有在溝通那我們也在探討怎麼樣協助這些協會帶著他的會員往新的市場去開發好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時7分）謝謝主席，我想要請郭部長跟劉主委。"],["主席：請郭部長、劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請教兩位，目前我們預估對傳產提出700億的特別預算，對於農業是180億，請問就目前我們這樣子的情況，在什麼樣子的情況下，你們未來去談，會增加我們的補助？不管是傳產、微創、微小型企業以及對於農業，在什麼樣的條件下，我們要增加補助？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我剛才也有講過880億是特別預算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["郭部長智輝：現階段馬上對這些中小微企業能夠紓困止血，對於中期來講，也不要說中期，目前在處理的第一個階段，我們是這個樣子，而第二個階段，當第一個階段結束的時候，發現有必要再持續協助、持續進行的時候，我相信這個預算是會再增加的，但是這一些因為是屬於特別預算，需要大院各位委員的支持。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我是說什麼情況下？我知道啊！但是剛才你們說啦，我們有非常多套劇本，我也認同，我們談判絕對不能只有一套劇本，在什麼樣的情況下，我們要給企業信心？在什麼樣子的情況下，會對我們的傳產、對我們的農業再提高特別預算？在什麼樣的情況下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在有掌握整個情勢，但是每一家廠商對應環境變異所需要的協助程度不一樣，不是以每一家直接乘上多少家數，我們不是這樣子做，而是直接去訪談、接觸可以說是有受到影響的這一些廠商，我們來協助它，看需要什麼樣的協助，這個是不一樣的，我們有很多……它可能在生產上面需要我們協助，可能在訂單調整上面需要我們協助，可能在金融上面需要我們協助，但是產銷人發財太多了……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：我們必須去identify這一些他需要的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你什麼時候可以identify？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在都在進行中啊！現在我們整個產業發展署、中小企業署、園區管理局等等，大概四個單位在進行廠商的訪談，第一個，我們比較高階的同仁是跟產業公會去做一些座談，對實際上的廠商我們都一一去訪談，我相信這樣子得到的訊息會比較正確，而不是大家用假設性的訊息。對我們來講，雖然是這樣，但是我們希望能夠對症下藥，然後來協助他們。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，那什麼時候談？什麼時候去美國談？以色列總理納坦雅胡已經去美國談，他們就零關稅，你們希望的目標是零關稅對不對？從零關稅開始談嘛，那你們自己的目標呢？你們自己設定的目標有沒有辦法像以色列一樣談到零關稅？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是談判小組的目標設定，我們是儘量以不影響國內的生態，創造有競爭優勢的情境，然後讓談判小組的人能夠跟對方談，我想這個有很多的give and take……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以還沒有確定什麼時候談？你看石破茂已經跟川普通電話了，他們就是優先去談，那我們到底什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：我們比較low key啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：比較low key？"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們要low profile去進行這件事情，不需要那麼樣的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我們是要隱藏起來？我們是隱藏起來，還是已經談了？"],["郭部長智輝：不是的，報告委員，我們一定是priority在前面的group，一定是在前面的group……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你已經確定我們是在priority group？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在韓國之後嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我不是談判委員，我不清楚……"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會是在韓國之後？"],["郭部長智輝：有幾個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們一直在談只要在不比我們主要競爭對手的關稅還要高的情況下，就可以保持我們的貿易優勢，但是目前我們就比日、韓都還要高啊，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，韓國跟美國他們是FTA的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以呢？"],["郭部長智輝：所以他現在加了一個更加重傷啊！他是重傷啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你認為我們這樣子的情況已經比過去好，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：不是比過去好啦，我的意思是說不針對單一的命題去做假設，我們是談整體的、對中華民國有幫助的，讓整個臺灣的企業、產業能夠穩住在臺灣製造、臺灣生產，這個是我們最大的目的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你還是不確定什麼時候開始談？"],["郭部長智輝：現在都在進行中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，那對於美國所要求的消除貿易障礙的部分，我們有沒有辦法做到？在著作權方面。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，關於消除貿易障礙的部分，很多是基於文化跟習慣的部分，所以我們會跟對方溝通、解釋、說明為什麼臺灣這些措施會引起他們認為是貿易障礙，我想從這個地方去溝通。那他們會去溝通、會去談判，我認為我們必須表達為什麼我們要做這些事情，這樣才有辦法再去談內容，對不對？這是give and take的部分，所以這個很重要，美國認為重要的事情，我們可能有疏忽，或者是我們認為重要的事情，美國他們不清楚，這樣就很難談。針對談判，像我跟劉主委，我們在民間每一年這種重大談判大概都會碰到一、兩次，我這一輩子在民間做了50年的工作，我大概有150次談判的經驗，就我們的經驗……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你會去談是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：就我們的經驗來講……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你會代表去談？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有，我們兩個就是提供我們過去的經驗讓談判小組去談這些事情。我想針對很多事情，我們過去的經驗可能是很久的經驗，現在談判小組與時俱進，他們是專家，我們是在外面談商業的部分，所以我們可以提供一點經驗。我的意思是說，談判通常會站在give and take的角度上面取得一定的平衡，非貿易障礙這種東西不是數字可以解讀的，而是要從文化、習慣各方面來綜合考量，取得對方的諒解，或者取得對方的同意，或者取得對方的知曉，我想這一方面有助於溝通，我們只是提供這樣的意見。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，你站第一排太久了，是不是讓劉主委一下？","主委，剛才你在報告裡面提到美國市場其實並不是占全球市場的全部，有86%是其他的市場，可是我要給你看的是我國主要的出口數字，你應該可以看到在我們的數字裡面，中國大陸與香港占我們總出口量的31.7%，美國是23.4%，東協則是18.5%，而東協這一次也是有重大損失的國家。我想請問我們要轉去哪裡？我們現在要轉去哪裡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實在很多新興的市場我們都還有很大的成長空間，對廠商而言，在這個時候只有三種比較可能的大方向，第一個是供應鏈移轉，往美國走或者是找到一個最適合的生產地，譬如說稅率10%的地方。另外一個角度是就市場上面進行分散，像最近崛起的印度市場、土耳其市場，其實也有滿多臺灣廠商走到裡面，而且從這裡面賺到一桶金。所以我們只是希望幫大家找到很多替代市場，然後協助廠商往替代市場去發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：問題是你找出替代市場的時候，廠商會不會跟著政府的腳步走？你們有提供足夠的誘因嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：除了提供誘因之外，其實我們也跟一些協會在溝通，我們也在探討怎麼樣協助這些協會帶著他的會員往新的市場去開發。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：現在請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T10:59:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T11:12:49+08:00","duration":796,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.92409375,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.58159375,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.42534375,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.26034375,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.94784375,"end":19.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.047843750000002,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.675968750000003,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.69909375,"end":125.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.03659375000001,"end":156.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.53846875000002,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.39346875,"end":172.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.18971875,"end":174.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.99534375000002,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.53096875,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.60534375,"end":192.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":199.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.26971875,"end":200.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.65784375,"end":216.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.84534375,"end":221.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.54909375000003,"end":221.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.97096875000003,"end":253.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.52284375000002,"end":281.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.50596875,"end":302.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.09784375000004,"end":314.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.18159375000005,"end":305.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.88471875000005,"end":328.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.57471875000005,"end":332.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.61159375,"end":336.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.56909375000004,"end":336.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.39596875,"end":338.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.07096875,"end":339.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.48846875000004,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.90596875,"end":356.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.48159375,"end":356.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.59971875,"end":360.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.66721875,"end":356.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.46409375,"end":360.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.51471875000004,"end":379.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.57096875,"end":380.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.46096875,"end":393.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.49284375,"end":394.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.60221875,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.47971875,"end":395.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.13784375,"end":396.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.99846875000003,"end":406.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.47409375,"end":405.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.33034375000005,"end":452.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.51721875000004,"end":469.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.40909375,"end":488.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.69721875000005,"end":488.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.11909375000005,"end":532.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.13346875,"end":534.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.1372187500001,"end":561.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.78721875,"end":614.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.33971875,"end":563.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.21284375,"end":565.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.1315937500001,"end":598.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.70284375,"end":626.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.86971875,"end":679.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.587218750000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請署長 鄭署長好 有請鄭署長委員長署長 這個 每個委員都關心這個議題4月8號我們中華女足的這個國際邀請賽因為紐西蘭女足認定我們的場地不安全而聚賽那我想問一下署長"},{"start":30.954,"end":43.707,"text":"這個目前我們體育署你們所了解的實際的狀況而且接下來你們要怎麼做其實紐西蘭女足是連續四屆取得奧運資格的強隊那我國的女足目前也積極地備戰2026的亞洲盃所以這一次的國際賽事是我們從2019年以來首度在台灣本土舉行的這個國際級的A級的這個賽事"},{"start":54.278,"end":70.226,"text":"我也相信說這個邀請賽對我國的女足覺得是非常期待也是非常重要的一些交流的一個經驗那這次的賽事取消其實最難過的除了球迷還是球員我對我的球迷也覺得很心疼很不捨所以我這邊要再請教一下我們署長"},{"start":71.707,"end":75.328,"text":"對於足協這麼怠惰 我覺得體育署是責無旁貸的紐西蘭國家女子足球隊在3月底就已經跟中華足協提出要新鋪這個草地這個建議喔那4月5號的訓練賽也早就已經先取消了那足協為什麼沒有反應 為什麼沒有做應該要做的一些措施"},{"start":95.635,"end":116.55,"text":"再來女足公會4月1號接獲會員反映說球場狀況這個疑慮有向我們體育署的長官尋求協助那這個部分呢我們體育署在知道了之後我們做的什麼是哪一位接收到訊息為什麼沒有去監督相關的這些改善的措施第三個就是明知道女足有重大的邀請賽"},{"start":117.771,"end":144.126,"text":"為什麼沒有將賽事跟練習做分級在16號以後就開始做維護這個部分我請署長您回答一下報告委員那從其實這個問題在去年也曾經發生過所以3月發生的時候在台北田林場那6月在辦比賽的時候我們在那之前我就下輔導他們就是說居然在一個月前能夠做一個草皮的加強養護這樣一個SOP應該要落實那今年顯然他們沒有這樣落實特別是在"},{"start":144.706,"end":157.093,"text":"3月12日開始他們陸續都是有教練講習男主的練習其實他們可以挪到別的地方去喔其實這是技術部門跟競賽部門之間的橫向聯繫的不足所以長期學法秘書長是一個很大的問題本席剛剛第一個問題3月底的時候紐西蘭女子足球隊提出這個要求建議的時候其實足協並沒有做任何措施包委員足協有加強在當時開始做加強那個草地的鋪設但是其實它需要至少三週的時間那時候是來不及的"},{"start":172.261,"end":198.556,"text":"所以效果也沒有顯現出來那還有我想請教為什麼這次足協沒有讓女足的總教練跟球員參與這個場地相關事宜的討論報告委員這名女足的總教練有在現場她有參與其他球員是沒有的球員沒有參與然後我剛剛提的第二個問題他們說女足公會說有向體育署這邊來求助"},{"start":200.307,"end":215.646,"text":"那請 報委員我這邊是沒有得到工會的求助但是足協這邊有來向我們反映那當時是希望看看台北田徑場是不是有機會不過因為台北田徑場現在因為壯年運動會的關係在閉門在做一些整修所以他們也沒有辦法借場地所以部分還是得回去到好"},{"start":216.647,"end":239.307,"text":"署長這就凸顯了一個很嚴重的問題我們的足球場地是嚴重的不足在這個時候我們竟然沒有相應應的球場可以來調用那明明知道說要辦理相關的國際賽事但是足協其實應該早就要去做整個維護計畫跟預定場地的這些相關的一些措施但是它其實沒有做"},{"start":239.907,"end":252.596,"text":"所以這一次的事件不僅是凸顯出我國運動場地分級的規範不足也真的很明顯的看出來租鞋對於女足相關的活動的態度是很不重視的"},{"start":254.588,"end":280.819,"text":"而且我們這次相關的一些訊息消息都是從紐西蘭這一方得到所以其實我相信球迷球員甚至我們關心足球運動的民眾對足協都非常的失望我也希望說體育署這邊你們要加強監督而且要深切的來反省那在這樣的事件之下我想請問署長對於協會如此怠惰你現在要怎麼辦你要怎麼處理"},{"start":281.519,"end":300.289,"text":"報告委員那除了我們這次的補助我們撤銷之外呢第二個我們希望盡可能還是協助他們把祕書長要找到因為沒有祕書長的確橫向聯繫上面的確是很大的問題那第三個就是我們現在我其實已經在陸續跟高雄市政府這邊談把中正體育場能夠轉型為另外一座A級的足球場地"},{"start":301.069,"end":305.792,"text":"這是場地的問題我們要再來討論我是要先問署長您的決心我們要怎麼讓我們的關心體育的民眾看到您的決心就是這對於我們協會這樣子帶墮形式這樣便宜形式您有什麼決心來展現報告委員我這邊會把他們叫來基本上SOP還是要叫他定下來因為他們就是去年是口頭教他們可是他們顯然沒有記下來沒有落實在這部分我們要求他素面整個SOP要定下來"},{"start":327.168,"end":330.576,"text":"把規則綁得好你也覺得說其實協會對你的要求其實就聽聽就算了這樣這個部分我會再要求主席啦好"},{"start":338.249,"end":356.056,"text":"署長您這樣說我們就讓我們的球迷再相信您願意好好來整頓協會那再提到說關於我們足球場地嚴重不足這個部分其實剛才您有回答其他的委員就是說其實你們在公建計畫裡面有提出相關的經費讓縣市政府來申請那為什麼縣市政府這麼不積極或者覺得說"},{"start":360.558,"end":376.928,"text":"因為包委員一來足球場它的面積比較大二來他們大部分申請的都是訓練或者是國內的賽事那缺乏淋浴間休息室再來缺乏看台所以這部分都是我們為什麼很難去找到一座"},{"start":377.788,"end":393.052,"text":"全新的足球場地接下來體育署你們要怎麼做所以我們現在就針對國內一些田徑場至少田徑場的部分我們看如果那個草皮是面積夠大我們來協助這種共用的方式來請他們把領域間休息設備來把它因為真的場地的問題還是要解決是的"},{"start":395.546,"end":419.585,"text":"好那您在場地這部分你們的規劃在後續你們有什麼進展也希望可以資訊給我報告這部分我會好好努力好再來我還是要針對女足公會的問題我這邊接收到的狀況是說從新任的國訓中心執行長上任之後女足公會就被排除在國訓定期跟女足的座談會之外為什麼"},{"start":420.265,"end":437.394,"text":"最近一次是四月份的座談會的與會名單裡面確實是沒有女足你看一下這個出席的名單裡面女足的部分是沒有的那女足公會最後一次受邀的時間是2023年的8月30號是在男子的足球場的會議"},{"start":438.675,"end":463.182,"text":"那這個狀況很明顯的看得出來對女足公會是很不友善的所以我也希望說署長您要去了解相關的情況在後續的座談會裡面一定要重新納入女足您覺得呢報告委員女足公會的理事長本身就是女足培訓隊的選手隊長那他有參加但是呢我想他們女足公會表達的是幹部的部分那部分我會要求國訓應該要"},{"start":465.303,"end":488.286,"text":"敞開心胸還是要多廣納建言所以這部分會邀請他們來對為什麼會要求他們可以出席他們有意見想表達有意見可以被溝通跟你們相互的溝通因為其實公會的存在就是希望替我們球員來爭取他們相關的福利待遇照顧以及希望說能夠得到重視所以這個部分我希望說未來女足公會不會再被缺席可以嗎可以"},{"start":489.187,"end":513.266,"text":"好 謝謝那再來呢就是關於今天的主題關於就是我們運財條例的這個增訂那其實為了防堵這個假求案在發生呢大家其實蠻有共識的就是增訂一些相關的法則但是我這邊再提到一個就是關於我們運財獎金的支出這個議題我想問一下我們體署這邊的意見業界有在反映就是說運財的獎之率呢就是比較"},{"start":513.906,"end":534.131,"text":"比國際上的這個行情還要低國際市場大概在80%到90%這個支出那我們台灣這麼低的這個講之率比較難以吸引玩家來投注那署長你之前有表達過說可能我們可以在內部進行討論我想知道說你們現在討論到怎樣的階段包委員那現在的"},{"start":535.211,"end":561.011,"text":"因為賭博在台灣是不允許,它是特許行業它還是肩負著社會責任所以它的成本上面22%裡面有10%是進到國家選手的培育這一塊其他是經銷商以及發行機構那78%是整年度的一個平均值其實我們發行機構可以針對不同的賽事需求可以去把它調整到九月幾或甚至六月幾"},{"start":561.732,"end":569.259,"text":"那其實我本席在這邊問這樣子的關心這樣的議題除了說是說我們希望說我們提高我們民眾他們喜愛運動那也可以在這個部分我們來投注希望能夠創造我們這個運產的收益"},{"start":581.049,"end":592.816,"text":"其實連帶的就是希望說我們運發基金的收入可以更高因為在8月份我們運動部掛牌之後其實有學者專家評估說我們至少要再投入400到500億的經費才能讓整個的運動產業能夠蓬勃發展當然我們現在必須要很積極來籌措相關的經費"},{"start":598.619,"end":613.606,"text":"所以說我們希望我們體育署這邊可以研議在運動部成立之後我們要怎麼樣來推動相關的這些運動的政策在運材的這個獎之率是不是提高這個部分我們希望有空間可以繼續討論"},{"start":614.727,"end":636.698,"text":"包委我們會用產業的概念這種觀念來持續跟經銷商們來做對話那我們當然希望在第四屆之前我們能夠有一個更好的一個方案提出來讓他們第四屆開始能夠有更那你相關的如果你們也討論之後有怎樣新的一部的訊息也希望給我辦公室這邊資訊那另外我要再問一下今年體育署的預算被大幅的刪減"},{"start":637.438,"end":650.841,"text":"那在加強學校體育活動及教學發展向下的這個經費被減列了兩千萬但是這一項經費主要是用於各校的運動設施及器材的補助而且根據113年運動統計顯示體育署補助給各級學校的這個"},{"start":657.543,"end":678.608,"text":"經費光是體育器材就高達309案操場有105案還有風雨球場的各式球場超過100案那根據本席過往的經驗體育署補助學校的經費一般都是不夠的我想請問說我們往年這一項經費的執行率是多少是不是真的是都不夠支應"},{"start":680.248,"end":701.453,"text":"報委員如果單純講執行率可能沒有辦法反映出整個全面因為執行率有時候還要看縣市學校他發包的程度所以我們過去其實執行率在去年的執行率大概是在八九成左右其實還不錯那但是呢我們這一次因為通山的影響以及凍結的影響特別在通山的部分所以我們被管控了大概三成的經費所以我們勢必要去砍"},{"start":702.233,"end":724.173,"text":"把一些給學校的一些設施器材的補助去砍下來因為我們必須要先保住人事費相關或是活動相關的這個就是本席擔心的地方那其實剛剛提到說除了你們被通商的部分呢其實在減量兩千萬的部分可能就是數十案的學校補助案會被犧牲掉那當然你們這邊也知道說剛剛講的因為預算不足所以可能會減少對學校運動設施器材的補助"},{"start":726.795,"end":753.08,"text":"但是我要講的是在我的選區的學校相關經費的爭取就是一直在排隊學校年年送年年等年年等我要請他們年年都在送每次每年幾乎都有十幾個案子十幾個學校就在等等體育署的補助等你們的經費等你們可以核給他那我也要求他們年年都送他們也很有那些每年每年就是聽我的話在送那這樣的情況之下你們又要減少這邊對他們的補助那他們要等到什麼時候"},{"start":754.835,"end":782.169,"text":"你們有什麼因應的措施嗎 我要協助這些學校報告委員 我們基本上還是以安全有疑慮的優先這個是我們目前以現有的預算我們必須這樣子我為什麼這麼要緊呢我也是希望說體育署這邊你們盡量降低對學校補助的這個影響我們不能影響到孩子他們教學的環境的這個安全及運動的安全報告委員 我們明年運動部的這個預算我們會盡量來編列那也請委員多多支持那我們會盡量滿足大家的需求謝謝署長"},{"start":783.71,"end":793.842,"text":"希望說我們對孩童我們對學童在學校這個活動的空間學習的空間這個安全是被放在第一位的好 以上謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時59分）謝謝主席，請鄭署長。"],["主席：有請鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員早。"],["陳委員秀寳：署長，每個委員都關心這個議題，就是4月8日中華女足國際邀請賽因為紐西蘭女足認定我們的場地不安全而拒賽，我想問一下署長目前體育署所瞭解的狀況，以及接下來你們要怎麼做。其實紐西蘭女足是連續4屆取得奧運資格的強隊，我國女足目前也積極地備戰2026年亞洲盃，這次的國際賽事是我們從2019年以來首度在臺灣本土舉行的國際A級賽事，我也相信這個邀請賽對我國的女足而言絕對是非常期待、也是非常重要的交流經驗，這次的賽事取消其實最難過的除了球迷之外，就是球員，我對我們的球迷也覺得很心疼、很不捨。","所以我要請教一下署長，對於足協這麼怠惰，我覺得體育署是責無旁貸的。紐西蘭國家女子足球隊在3月底就已經跟中華足協提出要重新鋪設草地的建議，4月5日的訓練賽也早就已經先取消了，足協為什麼沒有反應？為什麼沒有做應該要做的措施？再來，女足工會4月1日接獲會員反映球場狀況疑慮，並向體育署長官尋求協助，就這個部分，體育署在知道之後做了什麼？是哪一位接收到訊息，為什麼沒有去監督相關的改善措施？第三個，明知道女足有重大的邀請賽，為什麼沒有將賽事跟練習做分級，在16日以後就開始做維護？這個部分請署長回答一下。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實這個問題在去年也曾經發生過，所以3月發生的時候在臺北田徑場，6月在辦比賽的時候，我們在那之前就有輔導他們在1個月前能夠做好草皮養護SOP的落實，今年顯然他們沒有這樣的落實。特別是在3月12日開始，他們陸續都有教練講習、男足的練習，他們可以挪到別的地方去，其實這是技術部門跟競賽部門之間橫向聯繫的不足，所以長期缺乏秘書長是很大的問題。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以署長，回到本席剛才第一個問題，3月底紐西蘭女子足球隊提出這個要求、建議的時候，其實足協並沒有做任何措施，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，足協在當時開始做加強草地的鋪設，但是其實它需要至少3週的時間，那個時候是來不及了。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以效果也沒有顯現出來？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：還有，我想請教，為什麼這次足協沒有讓女足的總教練跟球員參與這個場地相關事宜的討論？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這名女足的總教練有在現場，他有參與，其他球員是沒有的。"],["陳委員秀寳：球員沒有參與。然後我剛剛提的第二個問題，女足工會說有向體育署求助，請問……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我這邊是沒有得到工會的求助，但是足協這邊有來向我們反映，當時是希望看看臺北田徑場是不是有機會，不過臺北田徑場現在因為壯年運動會的關係，在閉門做一些整修，也沒有辦法出借場地，所以部分還是得回到楠梓。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，署長，這就凸顯了一個很嚴重的問題，我們的足球場地是嚴重地不足。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：在這個時候，我們竟然沒有相應的球場可以調用，明明知道要辦理相關的國際賽事，足協其實應該早就要去做整個維護計畫及預訂場地的相關措施，但是它沒有做。所以這次的事件不僅凸顯出我國運動場地分級的規範不足，也真的很明顯地看出足協對於女足相關活動的態度是很不重視的，而且這次相關的訊息、消息都是從紐西蘭這一方得到，所以我相信球迷、球員、甚至關心足球運動的民眾對足協都非常地失望，我希望體育署要加強監督，而且要深切地反省。在這樣的事件之下，我想請問署長，對於協會如此怠惰，您現在要怎麼辦？要怎麼處理？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，除了我們這次的補助撤銷之外，第二個，我們希望盡可能還是協助他們要把秘書長找到，因為沒有秘書長，橫向聯繫上面的確是很大的問題。第三個，我們目前已經陸續在跟高雄市政府談，把中正體育場能夠轉型為另外一座A級足球場地，希望能夠分散壓力。"],["陳委員秀寳：這是場地的問題，我們再來討論，我現在先問署長您的決心，我們要怎麼讓關心體育的民眾看到您的決心？就是對於協會這樣子怠惰行事、便宜行事，您有什麼決心來展現？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我還把他們叫來，基本上SOP還是叫他們訂下來，因為去年是口頭叫他們做，可是他們顯然沒有記下來、沒有落實，這部分我們要求他們用書面把整個SOP訂下來，把規則弄好。"],["陳委員秀寳：您也覺得協會對您的要求其實聽聽就算了？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個部分我會再要求足協。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。署長，您這樣說，我們就讓球迷再相信您願意好好來整頓協會。","提到我們的足球場地嚴重不足的部分，其實剛才您有回答其他的委員，就是你們在公建計畫裡面有提出相關的經費讓縣市政府來申請。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：那為什麼縣市政府這麼不積極，或者覺得說……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，一來足球場的面積比較大，二來他們大部分申請的都是訓練或者是國內的賽事，缺乏淋浴間、休息室，再來是缺乏看臺，這是為什麼我們很難去找到一座全新的足球場地。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來你們體育署要怎麼做？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們現在就是至少針對國內田徑場的部分，如果草皮的面積夠大，我們會協助做共用的方式，請他們把淋浴間、休息設備新增。"],["陳委員秀寳：場地的問題真的還是要解決。"],["鄭署長世忠：是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。在場地這部分你們的規劃、後續有什麼進展，也希望可以把資訊提供給我的辦公室，讓我們知道。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們會好好努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。再來，我還是要針對女足工會的問題，我接收到的狀況是，從新任的國訓中心執行長上任之後，女足工會就被排除在國訓定期跟女足的座談會之外，為什麼？最近一次4月份的座談會與會名單裡面確實是沒有女足工會，你看一下出席的名單裡面，女足工會的部分是沒有的，女足工會最後一次受邀的時間是2023年8月30日楠梓足球場的會議。這個狀況很明顯地看得出來對女足工會是很不友善的，所以我也希望署長要去瞭解相關的情況，在後續的座談會裡面一定要重新納入女足工會，您覺得呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，女足工會的理事長本身就是女足培訓隊的選手隊長，他有參加，但是我想女足工會表達的是幹部的部分，我會要求國訓應該要敞開心胸、廣納建言，所以會邀請他們來。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，為什麼會要求他們可以出席？因為他們有意見想表達，希望有意見可以跟你們相互地溝通。其實工會的存在就是希望替球員爭取相關的福利、待遇、照顧，能夠得到重視，所以我希望未來女足工會不會再被缺席，可以嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：可以。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。再來就是關於今天的主題──運彩條例的增訂，為了防堵假球案再發生，大家滿有共識的就是增訂相關的罰則，但是關於運彩獎金支出這個議題，我想問一下體育署的意見。業界有在反映運彩的獎支率比較低，比國際上的行情還要低，國際市場大概是80%到90%的支出，我們臺灣這麼低的獎支率比較難以吸引玩家來投注，署長之前有表達過可能可以在內部進行討論，我想知道你們現在討論到怎樣的階段？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，現在的運彩基本上肩負……因為賭博在臺灣是不允許的，它是特許行業，它還是肩負著社會責任，所以成本上面22%裡面有10%是進到國家選手的培育這一塊，其他是經銷商及發行機構，78%是整年度的平均值，其實發行機構可以針對不同的賽事需求調整到百分之九十幾、甚至六十幾，它是一個平均值。"],["陳委員秀寳：就是在78%裡面單一地調整就對了？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席在此關心這樣的議題，除了希望提高民眾對運動的喜愛，也可以在這個部分投注，進而創造運彩的收益，連帶也讓運發基金的收入可以更高。尤其在8月份運動部掛牌之後，有學者專家評估我們至少要再投入400億到500億的經費，才能讓整個運動產業蓬勃發展，當然我們現在就必須很積極來籌措相關的經費。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我們希望體育署可以研議在運動部成立之後要怎麼樣推動相關的運動政策，在運彩的獎支率是不是提高的部分，我們希望有空間可以繼續討論。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們會用產業的概念、觀念持續跟經銷商們來做對話，我們當然希望在第4屆之前，能夠有一個更好的方案提出來，讓第4屆開始能夠有……"],["陳委員秀寳：相關的部分，如果你們討論之後有怎樣新的、進一步的訊息、資訊，也希望能夠提供給我辦公室這邊。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：另外，我再問一下，今年體育署的預算被大幅地刪減，在加強學校體育活動及教學發展項下的經費被減列了2,000萬，但是這一項經費主要是用於各校的運動設施及器材的補助，而且根據113年的運動統計顯示，體育署補助給各級學校的經費中，光是體育器材就高達309案；操場有105案；其他像風雨球場等各式球場，則是有超過100案。根據本席過往的經驗，體育署補助學校的經費一般都是不夠的，我想請問，往年這一項經費的執行率是多少？是不是真的都不夠支應？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，如果單純講執行率，可能沒有辦法反映出全面，因為執行率有時候還要看縣市、學校發包的程度，像去年的執行率大概是在八、九成左右，其實算還不錯，但是這一次因為通刪的影響以及凍結的影響，特別是在通刪的部分，我們大概被管控了三成的經費，所以勢必要將一些給學校設施及器材的經費砍下來，因為我們必須要先保住人事費相關或是活動相關的經費。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個就是本席擔心的地方，剛剛提到除了被通刪的部分，在減列2,000萬的部分，可能就是數十案的學校補助案會被犧牲掉，就像你剛剛講的，因為預算不足，所以可能會減少對學校運動設施及器材的補助，但是我要講的是，在我選區的學校，相關經費的爭取就是一直在排隊，學校年年送、年年等，每年幾乎都有十幾個案子、十幾個學校在等體育署的補助、等你們的經費、等你們核可給它，我也要求他們年年都送，他們也很有耐心，每年都有聽我的話送出申請，在這樣的情況之下，你們又要減少對他們的補助，那他們要等到什麼時候？你們有什麼因應措施來協助這些學校呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們基本上還是以安全有疑慮的為優先，以現有的預算狀況所以我們必須這樣做。"],["陳委員秀寳：為什麼這麼要緊呢？我也是希望體育署你們儘量降低這對學校補助的影響，我們不能影響到孩子他們在教學環境的安全及運動的安全。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，明年運動部的預算，我們會儘量來編列，也請委員多多支持，我們會儘量滿足大家的需求，。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝署長。希望我們對孩童、學童在學校活動的空間、在學習的空間中，相關的安全是被放在第一位的，以上，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，署長請回。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：接下來請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發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麻煩國安局長"},{"start":10.919,"end":30.544,"text":"好 王委員早局長早因為我們國安局統整我們全國的情報單位那其實你們算是一個資料彙整機關那提供給國家決策的參考我要問你一個新的狀況這個最新的消息是白宮的發言人這個李維特"},{"start":31.644,"end":59.583,"text":"他代表川普表達因為現在的時間我們現在是台灣時間的4月9號的上午那10點54分那就是美東時間華府時間他們的4月9號的晚上10點54分再過一個小時過6分鐘他們所有宣布的稅都要開始執行他們是定在4月9號華府時間凌晨0點起開始執行那你以前是外交體系我相信你了解他們的一個作業過程"},{"start":60.97,"end":75.368,"text":"那李威特講什麼李威特說川普總統吃軟不吃硬我現在簡單翻譯他的話啦意思說如果你報復你回擊那美國總統會更用力的回擊所以宣布對中國加徵再加50%"},{"start":76.75,"end":102.895,"text":"有人算出來說是104%其實如果加上拜登任內跟川普第一任的時候其實應該是126.1%不只104%縱使104%這也是大的事情可是後面這一段我不知道國安局有沒有掌握川普表達說來中國打電話過來習近平要做什麼你先打電話過來我會對你非常的gratias我會非常的寬容來處理這個事情"},{"start":104.39,"end":116.524,"text":"你們的判斷,習近平會不會打這個電話公開喔,他公開說你要談,我會對你很寬容可以參選啦,要不然就是一百多趴了啦"},{"start":118.958,"end":135.836,"text":"因為這一次全球的關稅問題不只是台美還牽涉到台灣跟周邊台灣的生產製造中心也許設在東南亞都有影響所以就你們這幾天國安會國安高層以及相關情報的收集你們認為中國會不會打這個電話"},{"start":138.32,"end":147.33,"text":"我想我一個國安局長我沒有辦法去解釋啦或是去建議中國領導人該怎麼做你不能建議啦我要做的是你的言析你們的研判"},{"start":149.278,"end":174.693,"text":"現階段來講看起來還是雙方是比較都在堅持立場的一個階段因為我比較擔心的是因為美中台三個關係其實互相是有連動的卻又互相獨立我們不容許台灣跟美國的關係被放在美國跟中國的談判桌上這是我們一貫的原則也就是美國跟台灣的外交關係的第一條鐵律就是美國不能把台灣拿去跟中國談美國也承諾這一點"},{"start":177.114,"end":200.382,"text":"所以如果川普要求中國打這個電話那經濟的工具 關稅的工具大概用完了後面可能就是出政治的工具那政治的工具中國的台灣牌 美國的台灣牌我們台灣自己有台灣牌啦你們有沒有研判川普政府在這件事情台灣議題會不會扮演什麼角色"},{"start":202.127,"end":224.016,"text":"現在大概川普政府在處理上目前看起來他在經貿議題上跟安全議題上是分開來處理那也就是說他在處理關稅問題的過程當中他的防長才剛剛在亞洲地區做了非常重要的訪問重新去提出對於亞洲盟友安全以及區域現狀維護一個非常堅強的一個承諾對 他訪問前還透露給媒體他們的這個暫時性的美國國家防衛的這個"},{"start":231.679,"end":246.576,"text":"戰略導引嘛有置中護台的概念在裡面那這個導引裡面把台灣放在相當重要的位置所以他大概有一個所以我們現在講就是說當他在處理這個關稅的時候美國跟中國不管是雙方的領導者直接溝通或者透過一些談判"},{"start":247.717,"end":276.336,"text":"台灣在這裡面不應該成為議題那我們不僅要了解要研析也應該要去影響那當然你從他公佈關稅的時候他那個板子上面台灣被視為一個獨立的國家這是一個在外交上是一個正向的分裂美國的CIA把那個旗幟啦國家地理他也做一個明確的標示台灣跟中國是互不隸屬互不管轄這是一個方向所以我們現在看到就是美中如果來硬的"},{"start":277.837,"end":301.162,"text":"那中國的關稅一直往上堆疊而美國對中國在其他生產製造國都用高關稅來避免席產地所以我們現在派到美國的談判團隊除了要雙方希望建立零關稅其實零關稅不壞啦變FTA 雙方都零關稅其實還有一塊就是避免中國席產地如果這一個美國的策略為真的話"},{"start":302.262,"end":317.867,"text":"那你們國安局本身在你們資料的研析上這個發展是不是一個方向那這個方向台灣在這裡面的角色是什麼是 這部分我想在總統召開相關的會議以及對外的談話已經提到了這一點"},{"start":318.447,"end":334.536,"text":"那怎麼樣在進行台美之間後續有可能的關稅的協商過程當中怎麼來處理息產地或是出口管制的問題這確實是在相關評估過程當中一個重要的議題因為賴總統的五項談判策略其實看起來是"},{"start":335.957,"end":349.414,"text":"經過深思熟慮這個有對到命題啦就是不管是你要降低彼此的貿易的deficit我們的貿易的差額貿易的赤字然後降低貿易的壁壘不管叫關稅壁壘或非關稅壁壘我們也盤點了"},{"start":352.478,"end":373.054,"text":"第三個就是避免中國經由台灣洗產地或偷寄宿嘛這是一個另外呢川普也希望增加投資讓美國有機會最後一個他還是需要這些關稅美國聯邦政府要調整財務結構他大概是五大目的那我們現在鄭麗君副院長帶的談判團隊在美國那媒體有報導說吳釗燮也在美國但吳釗燮談的應該是另外一件事情"},{"start":378.789,"end":407.84,"text":"目前4月9號台灣時間4月10號你認為台灣面對美國調高這個關稅這一波的衝擊我們有沒有辦法避免或者在短期間內有辦法和緩你們的判斷是什麼對對這部分因為我剛也跟媒體有說明政府事實上已經有做一連串非常充分的一個措施來做必要的因應那一部分是在盤點可能產業受到的影響跟衝擊所以總統跟服務院的團隊也跟"},{"start":408.5,"end":425.994,"text":"產業界不管高科技或傳統產業有很多的討論那也提出了我們在短期跟中長期產業未來要發展佈局的一個重要的方向那第二部分也針對未來的台美關稅的協商那也做了很多的一個沙盤的推演這包括你們準備做的我們都知道"},{"start":426.554,"end":449.844,"text":"因為總統也接觸了五項策略另外對美的軍事採購軍事採購當然不會列入貿易的額度裡面但是我們對自己的安全重視這件事情對談判是有好的一個前置條件我剛才問的是結果就是以目前你們掌握的狀況美國這一次全球關稅現在有五十多個國家要跟他們談"},{"start":450.664,"end":469.071,"text":"昨天白宮還特別罕見講說台灣已經跟他們接觸了表示我們已經on the table已經在進程裡面了你們的判斷台灣在這一波的關稅裡面有沒有機會被不要說豁免被減緩或者說短時間內可以列到比較有利的地位上面"},{"start":469.642,"end":494.727,"text":"也不能排除這樣的一個機會啦因為就像委員提到的我們在週末期間已經跟美方有做一些溝通那也針對我方的一個立場跟提案讓美方知道那這也是為什麼美國白宮的資深官員有對外證實這件事情所以雙方的一個戰略溝通的機制是有啟動的那接下來就看他在審核過程當中那哪些國家可以列入協商的名單那協商名單裡面有沒有比較優先的名單那這部分據我的理解還在處理過程當中台灣會不會再優先了"},{"start":500.549,"end":526.091,"text":"目前他們還在討論你認為樂不樂觀因為在優先談判名單就有可能先暫緩對我們當然是爭取能夠有這樣的一個機會因為你是等於全國情報的最高首長但有些東西還在進行當中不辯講我尊重我剛要問的就是說以川普的決策模式你覺得因為剩下幾個小時會不會有些國家被暫時緩和下來"},{"start":528.65,"end":529.622,"text":"你們的判斷有沒有可能"},{"start":531.127,"end":559.347,"text":"因為馬上就先排了我知道 但他們目前看起來好像還沒有到那個階段他們現在重點是在塞綠可以來啟動關稅協商的國家名單因為他宣布的時間這是全球嘛 臨時差的嘛所以美東時間的半夜凌晨零點零時4月9號可是他到天亮 華爾街那個鐘開始敲其實還有幾個小時啊"},{"start":561.124,"end":564.857,"text":"那這幾個小時以目前我還是那句話你方便說"},{"start":566.138,"end":591.429,"text":"因為這牽涉到我們台灣太多的中小企業了這件事情影響中小企業非常的重大有一些不負責任的政治人物隨便說那跟美國開幹啊他32我們就50%我跟你講這個中小企業聽到講這種話都認為這是非常不負責任我們現在美國是我們對外出口的第一大市場在去年就開始超越中國了所以我現在要講的是以你目前的瞭解"},{"start":593.12,"end":620.72,"text":"川普政府有沒有可能百分比我們用李克特五點亮表有沒有可能在真正執行這個關稅前把某些國家拉出來暫緩上次加拿大跟墨西哥就快要槍斃前就從行場拖回去說緩和一個月再來有沒有可能他們現在有在討論各種的狀況啦然後也針對已經表達協商的國家有在做一些討論正在討論你覺得有沒有可能"},{"start":621.839,"end":627.57,"text":"極其不可能有點可能不知道或者有可能或非常可能五個點"},{"start":629.482,"end":656.735,"text":"正在討論 他們還在討論當中所以目前這件事情正在發展中就是表達要談判意願的五十多個國家這五十多個國家裡面大概有六七個國家表達願意雙方零關稅盧比歐向歐盟表達川普的目的是建構北美洲跟歐盟的零關稅經貿環境他講這個話所以這件事情正在減變中所以我剛才從這邊聽到的是"},{"start":658.652,"end":682.005,"text":"有沒有可能某些國家在正式執行前 暫時拉下來進行協商談判這個正在談 溝通中對 他們正在討論 他們現在正在討論 現在正在談當中嘛 是台灣是正在談當中一國嘛當然 我們已經有表達意願了我剛才跟委員說明我們跟台美之間這個機制是有啟動的那美方資深官員也對外證實這個機制是啟動的OK 兩個問題齁 主席我給你借一點時間齁那個"},{"start":687.483,"end":713.273,"text":"吳釗燮現在在美國的所謂的特殊管道的安全談判跟這個關稅有沒有關係我不適合替國安會來回答這個問題OK 好 我尊重因為帕帕羅印太司令部的指揮官司令他特別提到最近的中共對台軍演他認為那不是一個演習他認為是一個rehearsal是一個進攻前的預演動作"},{"start":714.618,"end":743.95,"text":"是一個對台進攻前的預演動作國安會怎麼看這句話我沒有辦法替國安會來回答我說國安局的部分國安局的部分他確實我剛才跟其他委員做說明他現在開始把一些例行性的演習做包裝而對台灣具有針對性然後他在演練的就是希望建立這種可能的油鹽轉戰的相關的能量帕帕羅上將所說的最近這些軍演他是一個發動對台攻擊的rehearsal"},{"start":744.557,"end":772.636,"text":"各種意見我們都尊重也會列入我們的評估好 這個我不為難你最後一個問題中共最近是不是在清洗他們的軍方有一個消息出來1300多位包含將領我這邊有列一些名單中央軍委會副主席國防部長戰區司令員武警部隊司令員軍政高層其他軍政包含東部台灣當面的東部戰區的海軍司令"},{"start":773.536,"end":799.014,"text":"這裡面有上將中將被清洗的中上將少將大概可以組一個連然後所有的軍方中共解放軍被清洗的人將近1300多人這個消息是否為真你們有沒有掌握我們的數據剛剛在夜報裡面也有大概在裡面有羅列出來所以這數字是真的就有一些中共的將領被清洗但董軍的部分我沒記錯好像"},{"start":800.342,"end":821.361,"text":"昨天還是什麼時候有公開的畫面出來就要再確認一下他消失一段時間後就出來了我這個提醒就是說當然有人說一個部隊在大清洗當中這個部隊是沒有辦法有戰力的但我們不能掉以輕心但另外一說就是當大清洗發生的時候困獸遊鬥這個時候大家要特別小心從印度、越南"},{"start":822.102,"end":842.592,"text":"菲律賓甚至於澳洲、日本、台灣這些周邊國家都應該特別小心因為當內部在大清洗的時候製造衝突常常是解放軍解決問題的方法之一你們有評估這個事情?有有這部分國安單位、國防部我們都有全面全程的一個掌控共軍相關的所以目前局勢是有沒有升高的太陽還是正常持平?"},{"start":843.992,"end":870.338,"text":"目前還好所以這個清洗是確實正在發生有他是中共內部黨派的鬥爭還是藉由剛剛也跟陳委員在討論他有幾個可能的原因一來是派系的問題貪腐的問題忠誠度的問題那因為有些狀況還在他們的調查當中那可能要進一步再來做一些綜合的判斷你認為習近平的位置目前他是憂慮的還是安穩的"},{"start":872.15,"end":879.484,"text":"我沒有辦法去揣摩習近平的心境啦但至少在軍文關係的這個後續的發展是我們關注的一個重點"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩國安局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長早。國安局統整我們全國的情報單位，其實你們算是一個資料彙整機關，提供給國家決策參考，我要問你一個新的狀況。最新消息是白宮發言人李威特代表川普表達，我們現在是臺灣時間4月9號的上午10點54分，那就是美東、華府時間4月9號的晚上10點54分，再過1個小時6分鐘他們所有宣布的稅都要開始執行，他們是定在4月9號華府時間凌晨0點起開始執行，你以前是外交體系的，我相信你了解他們的一個作業過程。李威特講什麼？李威特說川普總統吃軟不吃硬，我現在簡單翻譯他的話，意思是說，如果你報復、你回擊，那美國總統會更用力的回擊，所以宣布對中國再加50%，有人算出來是104%，如果加上拜登任內跟川普第一任的時候，其實應該是126.1%，不只104%，縱使104%也是大的事情。","可是後面這一段我不知道國安局有沒有掌握，川普表達說，中國打電話過來，習近平要做什麼你先打電話過來，我會對你非常的gracious、我會非常的寬容來處理這個事情。依你們的判斷，習近平會不會打這個電話？他公開說，你要談我會對你很寬容，打來就可以商量，要不然就是百分之一百多了。就國安局目前掌握……因為這一次全球的關稅問題不只是臺美，還牽涉到臺灣跟周邊，臺灣的生產製造中心也許設在東南亞，這些都有影響，所以就你們這幾天國安會、國安高層以及相關情報蒐集，你們認為中國會不會打這個電話？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想我一個國安局長，我沒有辦法去解釋或是去建議中國領導人該怎麼做。"],["王委員定宇：你不能建議，我要的是你的研析、你們的研判。"],["蔡局長明彥：現階段來講，看起來還是雙方都在堅持立場的一個階段，我比較擔心的是，美、中、臺三個關係其實互相是有連動的卻又互相獨立，我們不容許臺灣跟美國的關係被放在美國跟中國的談判桌上，這是我們一貫的原則，美國跟臺灣外交關係的第一條鐵律就是，美國不能把臺灣拿去跟中國談，美國也承諾這一點。如果川普要求中國打這個電話，經濟的工具、關稅的工具大概用完了，後面可能就是出政治的工具，那關於政治的工具，中國的臺灣牌、美國的臺灣牌、我們臺灣自己有臺灣牌，你們有沒有研判川普政府在這件事情上，臺灣議題會不會扮演什麼角色？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前看起來，川普政府在經貿議題跟安全議題上是分開來處理，也就是說，他在處理關稅問題的過程當中，他的防長才剛剛在亞洲地區做了非常重要的訪問，重新提出對於亞洲盟友安全以及區域現狀維護的一個非常堅強承諾。"],["王委員定宇：對，他訪問前還透露給媒體，就是一個暫時性美國國家防衛的戰略導引。"],["蔡局長明彥：有制中護臺的概念在裡面。"],["王委員定宇：這個導引裡面把臺灣放在相當重要的位置，所以他大概有一個……我們現在講的是，當他在處理這關稅的時候，美國跟中國不管是雙方的領導者直接溝通或者透過一些談判，臺灣在這裡面不應該成為議題，那我們不僅要了解、要研析，也應該要去影響。當然從他公布關稅的時候，他那個板子上面臺灣被視為一個獨立的國家，這在外交上是一個正向的分裂，美國CIA把那個旗幟、國家地理也做一個明確的標示，臺灣跟中國是互不隸屬、互不管轄，這是一個方向。我們現在看到美中如果來硬的，中國的關稅一直往上堆疊，而美國對中國在其他生產製造國都用高關稅來避免洗產地，所以我們現在派到美國的談判團隊，除了雙方希望建立零關稅，其實零關稅不壞，變FTA、雙方都零關稅，其實還有一塊就是避免中國洗產地，如果這一個美國的策略為真的話，國安局本身在你們資料的研析上，這個發展是不是一個方向？臺灣在這裡面的角色是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，這部分我想在總統召開的相關會議以及對外的談話也已經提到這一點，在臺美之間後續有可能的關稅協商過程當中怎麼來處理洗產地或是出口管制的問題，這確實是在相關評估過程當中一個重要的議題。"],["王委員定宇：因為賴總統的五項談判策略看起來是經過深思熟慮，也有對到命題。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["王委員定宇：不管是要降低彼此貿易的deficit、貿易的差額、貿易的赤字；然後降低貿易的壁壘，不管叫關稅壁壘或非關稅壁壘，我們也盤點了；第三個就是避免中國經由臺灣洗產地或偷技術，這是一個；另外，川普也希望增加投資，讓美國有機會；最後一個，他還是需要這些關稅，美國聯邦政府要調整財務結構，大概是這五大目的。","現在我們鄭麗君副院長帶著談判團隊在美國，媒體報導吳釗燮也在美國，但吳釗燮談的應該是另外一件事情。目前4月9日（臺灣時間4月10日），你認為臺灣面對美國調高關稅這一波的衝擊，我們有沒有辦法避免，或者在短期間內有辦法和緩？你們的判斷是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，針對這部分，我剛剛也跟媒體有說明，政府事實上已經有做了一連串非常充分的措施來做必要的因應，一部分是在盤點可能產業受到的影響跟衝擊，所以總統跟府院團隊也跟產業界，不管高科技或傳統產業都有很多的討論，也提出了我們在短期跟中、長期產業未來要發展、布局的重要方向。第二部分，我們針對未來臺美關稅的協商也做了很多沙盤推演，包括……"],["王委員定宇：你們的準備工作我們都知道……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為都有做充分的準備。"],["王委員定宇：因為總統親自揭櫫了五項策略，另外對美的軍事採購，軍事採購當然不會列入貿易的額度裡面，但是我們對自己的安全重視這件事情對談判是有一個好的前置條件。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才問的是結果，就是以目前你們掌握的狀況，美國這一次全球關稅，現在五十多個國家要跟他們談，昨天白宮還特別罕見的說，臺灣已經跟他們接觸了，表示我們已經on the table、已經在進程裡面了。就你們的判斷，臺灣在這一波關稅裡面，不要說豁免，但有沒有機會被減緩，或者說短時間內可以列到比較有利的地位上面？"],["蔡局長明彥：不能排除這樣的機會，就像委員提到的，我們在周末期間已經跟美方有做一些溝通，也針對我方的立場跟提案讓美方知道，這也是為什麼美國白宮的資深官員有對外證實這件事情，所以雙方戰略溝通的機制是有啟動的，接下來就看他在審核的過程當中，哪些國家可以列入協商名單，以及協商名單裡面有沒有比較優先的名單，據我的理解，這部分還在處理過程當中。"],["王委員定宇：臺灣會不會在優先的談判名單？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前他們還在討論。"],["王委員定宇：你認為樂不樂觀？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們當然是爭取，我們來爭取。"],["王委員定宇：因為在優先談判名單，就有可能先暫緩。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們當然是爭取能夠有這樣的機會。"],["王委員定宇：因為你等於是全國情報的最高首長。"],["蔡局長明彥：但有些東西還在進行當中，不適合。"],["王委員定宇：不便講我尊重，我剛才要問的就是，以川普的決策模式，因為只剩下幾個小時，你覺得會不會有些國家被暫時緩和下來？就你們的判斷，有沒有可能？因為這馬上就掀牌了，就跟開樂透一樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道，他們目前看起來好像還沒有到那個階段，他們現在的重點是在篩濾可以來啟動關稅協商的國家名單，重點在這裡。"],["王委員定宇：因為他宣布的時間是全球零時差的，是美東時間4月9日半夜凌晨0點0時，可是到天亮華爾街那個鐘開始敲，其實還有幾個小時，在這幾個小時當中，以目前的狀況而言，我還是那句話，你方便說就說，因為這牽到臺灣太多的中小企業……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，可以理解。"],["王委員定宇：這件事情影響中小企業非常的重大，有一些不負責任的政治人物隨便說：那跟美國開幹啊！他32%，我們就50%。我跟你講，中小企業聽到講這種話都認為非常不負責任，現在美國是我們對外出口的第一大市場，從去年就開始超越中國了。所以我現在要講的是，以你目前的了解，不然用百分比，我們用李克特五點量表，川普政府有沒有可能在真正執行這個關稅前，把某些國家拉出來暫緩？像上次加拿大跟墨西哥就是快要槍斃前又從刑場拖回去，說緩和一個月再來。有沒有可能？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們現在有在討論各種的狀況，也針對已經表達協商的國家有在做一些討論，正在討論。"],["王委員定宇：你覺得有沒有可能？是極其不可能、有點可能、不知道、有可能或非常可能，五個點。"],["蔡局長明彥：正在討論，他們還在討論當中。"],["王委員定宇：所以目前這件事情正在發展中？"],["蔡局長明彥：正在發展當中。"],["王委員定宇：就是表達有談判意願的五十多個國家，這五十多個國家裡面大概有六、七個國家表達願意雙方零關稅，盧比歐向歐盟表達川普的目的是建構北美洲跟歐盟的零關稅經貿環境，他有講這個話，所以這件事情正在簡便中，所以我剛才從你那邊聽到的是，有沒有可能某些國家在正式執行前暫時拉下來進行協商談判？這個正在談溝通中。我這樣詮釋對嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他們正在討論，他們真的正在討論。"],["王委員定宇：這件事情他們正在談判當中嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：臺灣是正在談判當中的一國嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，我們已經有表達意願，我剛才跟委員說明了，我們跟臺美之間的機制是有啟動的，美方資深官員也對外證實，這個機制是啟動的。"],["王委員定宇：OK。主席，我跟你借一點時間。有兩個問題，吳釗燮現在在美國的特殊管道的安全談判跟這個關稅有沒有關係？"],["蔡局長明彥：我不適合替國安會來回答這個問題。"],["王委員定宇：OK，我尊重。因為印太司令部的指揮官、司令帕帕羅特別提到最近的中共對臺軍演，他認為那不是一個演習，他認為是一個rehearsal，是一個對臺進攻前的預演動作。國安會怎麼看這句話？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法替國安會來回答。"],["王委員定宇：沒有、沒有，我是指國安局。"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局的部分，我剛剛也跟其他委員做過說明，他現在開始把一些例行性的演習做包裝而對臺灣具有針對性，他在演練的就是希望建立這種可能由演轉戰的相關能量。"],["王委員定宇：對於帕帕羅上將所說的，最近這些軍演是一個發動對臺攻擊的rehearsal，你們認為如何？"],["蔡局長明彥：各種意見我們都尊重，也會列入我們的評估。"],["王委員定宇：你們的意見呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會列入我們的評估。"],["王委員定宇：好，這個我不為難你。最後一個問題，中共最近是不是在清洗他們的軍方？有消息出來，有一千三百多位，包含將領，我這邊有列一些名單，有中央軍委會副主席、國防部長、戰區司令員、武警部隊司令員、軍政高層、其他軍政，包含臺灣當面的東部戰區的海軍司令，這裡面有上將、中將，被清洗的中將、上將、少將大概可以組一個連，然後所有中共解放軍被清洗的人將近一千三百多人，這個消息是否為真？你們有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們的數據在剛剛的業報裡面有羅列出來。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個數字是真的？"],["蔡局長明彥：有一些中共的將領被清洗，但董軍的部分，如果我沒記錯，好像昨天還是什麼時候有公開的畫面出來，這部分還要再確認一下。"],["王委員定宇：他消失一段時間，後來又跑出來了。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，好像早上還是昨天。"],["王委員定宇：當然有人說，一個部隊在大清洗當中，這個部隊是沒有辦法有戰力的，但我們不能掉以輕心。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["王委員定宇：但另外一說就是，當大清洗發生的時候，困獸猶鬥，這個時候大家要特別小心，從印度、越南、菲律賓，甚至於澳洲、日本、臺灣這些周邊國家都應該特別小心，因為當內部在大清洗的時候，製造衝突常常是解放軍解決問題的方法之一，你們有評估過這個事情嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分國安單位、國防部我們都有全面、全程掌控共軍相關的狀態。"],["王委員定宇：所以目前局勢有沒有升高的態樣，還是正常持平？"],["蔡局長明彥：還好。"],["王委員定宇：目前還好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：OK，所以這個清洗確實正在發生？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：它是中共內部黨派的鬥爭，還是藉由……"],["蔡局長明彥：都有，剛剛也跟陳委員在討論，它有幾個可能的原因，一來是派系的問題、貪腐的問題、忠誠度的問題，因為有些狀況他們還在調查當中，可能要進一步再做一些綜合的判斷。"],["王委員定宇：你認為目前習近平的位置是憂慮還是安穩的？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法去揣摩習近平的心境，至少軍文關係後續的發展是我們關注的重點。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝局長，謝謝主席。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：時間到了，謝謝王定宇委員上臺質詢。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159959","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159959","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce7916a62ab80054b5a9dd72f8e909e2232eb6e21b32d8c6be268cb4a8a8bd5f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:56:13 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我來投標那可能其他人會覺得說 奇怪 你怎麼會來投標就原來是因為到最後驗收很簡單啊驗收是或者要拍一支 剪成五支短影片part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4 part 5結果 承辦人員就讓他驗收變五支影片陳記長 這是單一個案嗎"},{"start":329.242,"end":336.769,"text":"我們所有的查核發現其實就跟提供給委員的資料一樣這是單一個案嗎應該 應該 類同的狀況應該蠻多的應該蠻多的 沒有錯 你的報告我客氣了 112年勞動節主題影片是這樣子辦你的報告裡面113年勞動節影片也是這樣辦啊而且更貴"},{"start":357.858,"end":374.712,"text":"831萬結果要做兩支影片兩支影片他變成是拍了一支影片叫搬家片結果分上下集然後再拍一個30秒的短片沒有重拍喔也是一樣把那個搬家片變30秒短片結果請領了831萬"},{"start":381.046,"end":399.274,"text":"這更簡單了他連剪輯都懶了三支影片兩支長片一支短片831萬就他拍一支分上下集然後再剪一個精華30秒出來就可以核銷578萬跟96萬天體下有那麼好康念好康報大家知道吧"},{"start":408.001,"end":427.784,"text":"有多少青年朋友苦哈哈創業沈機長我再請教知不知道外面行情剪一支影片多少錢欸...不瞭解有沒有去問沒有沒有因為我們只是個案查核就裡面不合理的部分我們蒐集證據把他把他揭露出來沈機長會不會覺得真的非常離譜"},{"start":429.369,"end":454.274,"text":"我看到你們報告我都覺得非常離譜啊800多萬 500多萬是這樣子濫用人民的納稅錢這樣濫花而且更不要講過去三年就業安定基金其實是虧損的三年虧了200億結果我們的勞動部用這樣子的花錢的方式啊為什麼我要問你是因為勞動部長批批壓啦"},{"start":455.475,"end":478.764,"text":"他從剛剛到現在只要講的都是講是說依法行政 依法辦理審計部告訴我們修正簡略不用剔除所以我們就編公務預算我們拿2025年的公務預算來去補2021年2022年2023年上下起手出去的預算上下交鄉賊啊 左手給右手啊"},{"start":480.166,"end":504.57,"text":"時空旅人之期啊2025年的預算來補2021年已經出去的預算然後他的核銷檢驗是這樣子一個狀況驗收是這樣的狀況合理嗎那你這樣子我們還要還要堅持講的是這個叫做什麼預算不相關然後不是相符"},{"start":506.701,"end":533.521,"text":"還要在昨天你們送來的報告之後然後之後再換報告 換字眼然後還要看你剛剛的這個辯解還是講是說沒有啦 都有用啦文字都有用啦我光點這三點都是你報告裡面的內容這三點我覺得如果說是做工程的話早就被抓去關了你怎麼會發包一個標案講的是要做到這個我要蓋五間房子"},{"start":534.788,"end":561.084,"text":"結果變成是我蓋一間房子五層樓就驗收就通過會受害嗎公務員報告因為他這個案子齁他剛剛前面我也跟其他委員報告因為這個案子他的處理方式他是用開口契約啦齁那我們覺得這個開口契約裡面其實他開口契約可以變成是我們公務預算濫用的理由跟藉口嗎當然不行當然不行啊"},{"start":562.659,"end":590.695,"text":"因為開口契約的所以我們審計單位現在為什麼一直跟您堅持在講說審計單位出來報告很重要你們認定到什麼程度行政部門就可以拿著上方保健如果你們認定就是他現在只要修正簡列行政部門就上方保健啊我就編預算來補就好啦啊之前的責任是誰哪一個承辦那個承辦怎麼驗收的有沒有圖利的嫌疑"},{"start":592.541,"end":598.906,"text":"為什麼廠商就只有這家廠商知道可以這樣驗收其他廠商都沒有辦法我5隻就是5隻沈記長還有沒有再調整的空間還有沒有要再修正的空間"},{"start":611.787,"end":633.258,"text":"還有沒有要站在中華民國政府把關預算的空間真的不能濫用我相信有良知的公務同仁聽到我剛剛這樣子解釋這幾個大家可以歡迎大家去看這審計的報告奇聞共賞真的太離譜了就是因為看到那麼離譜的報告出來之後"},{"start":634.841,"end":641.988,"text":"你寫出來的狀況才會讓我們看到過去那幾年救安基金被濫用的有多離譜這有送監察院已經呈報監察院你覺得監察院會有效果嗎"},{"start":655.416,"end":672.578,"text":"那麼沒信心 對監察院那麼沒信心但我知道 我也說你送給監委嘛 是不是沒有沒有 我們就直接整個案子傳報給監察院那監察院內部的審查 監察委員有立案調查了嗎立案調查了目前還在調查中目前還在調查中 是不是沈警長"},{"start":676.499,"end":691.528,"text":"互相尊重立法部門跟監察部門其實我們都是站在人民的這一面要求督促行政部門我不會又要馬好又要馬不吃草所以救安基金如果當用用在刀口上我不會反對"},{"start":692.429,"end":711.887,"text":"但是如果說花這種情況你們都白紙黑字寫出來了然後結果還可以放任行政部門沒有去追討相關的責任而是編列2025年的公務預算去把他給回繳然後就傳過水無痕就沒事了我們會嚴正處理不會傳過水無痕我們一定會依法來處理"},{"start":718.277,"end":732.258,"text":"沈機長本席看你剛剛講嚴正處理依法處理會是什麼樣的狀況是這個案子我還要繼續追是希望我們下一次再見面的時候你真的可以給我們一些國人交代跟責任以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝洪委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":678,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時56分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請審計部副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：副審計長，我剛剛聽了5位委員的質詢，勞動部現在就是全部推給審計，因為審計對之前就安基金七千多萬的使用，認定成可以修正、減列，不是剔除，所以勞動部就好像是領到了聖旨一樣，沒有去追討而用公務預算編列，讓外界都覺得好像是左手補右手。公務預算、就安基金這些來源是不是都是人民的納稅錢啊？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以我為什麼要針對審計部的部分，因為我很重視審計部給我們的資料、給我們的報告，相信審計長也有看過審計的報告，你覺得裡面這樣濫用公務預算真的合理嗎？大家都是公務員，我剛剛特別看了一下，也就教了一下內容。","來，我們先看一下，審計長，請教一下，這個是我們大家關心所謂許銘春的演唱會，它總共花費了多少錢？三百多萬元。這三百多萬元裡面，到底這個演唱會的製作、燈光、音響效果、舞台是用在哪邊？有沒有找出來？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，全案我們都有移送給監察院。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，有移送監察院，但我想請教並跟你確認，那個演唱會我們看到有燈光、音響、舞台，包括舞群和表演人員，不只許銘春一個人唱歌嘛！前面還有兩個歌手，不是嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那個演出費是編在哪邊？有沒有？編在哪邊，花多少錢？是不是沒有？勞動部他們那個時候是用開口合約，但在你們報告裡面寫的是，開口合約沒有這個項目，只有製作影片的項目，所以後來就讓他們用直播的方式，以及直播完之後剪成7支影片核銷368萬，就是一個直播跟7支影片，這7支影片還不是新拍的，而是把直播的畫面剪成7支影片，然後來核銷，這樣就報了368萬，合理嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們認為不合理。"],["洪委員孟楷：不合理？"],["李副審計長順保：所以我們提出了一個審計意見，其中一個就是它運用這個開口契約，用這個方式來核銷、來處理其實是不符合一般的……"],["洪委員孟楷：荒謬嘛！如果說可以的話，那就用公務預算啊！為什麼那個時候要用就安基金？就代表就安基金感覺比較便宜行事、比較可以暗渡陳倉啊！來，這是單一個案嗎？","我們再看下一個，大家都是公務同仁，可以看一下這樣的做法，如果發生在各自部會上面，可能大家都已經被抓去關了。這是審計部的報告，一樣，他說什麼？他說總共金額有632萬元，要製作5支影片，內容講的是要5支影片，製作金額632萬，結果他到最後怎麼做？他到最後是拍了1支影片之後，把影片剪輯成5支短影片交付驗收，然後請領632萬。副審計長，哪一個公家機關單位可以這樣做標案？標案寫的是我要製作5支影片，來投標的廠商也都知道要做5支影片，結果到最後驗收時那個廠商把1支影片剪成5支短影片，然後就變5支！這是雙胞胎，三胞胎，還是五胞胎？1支影片剪成5支短影片，就變5支，然後就驗收通過，可以拿到六百多萬，這有沒有構成圖利？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：對外的標案是說要拍5支影片，所以廠商可能不敢來，因為覺得六百多萬拍5支影片價格有點高，可能成本不合所以沒有來。結果真的來投標的，我不知道這個廠商是誰，但我要求應該要查。廠商來投標，其他人可能覺得奇怪、怎麼會來投標？結果原來是因為到最後驗收很簡單啊！驗收是只要拍1支影片剪成5支短影片，part 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five，結果承辦人員就讓他驗收變5支影片，副審計長，這是單一個案嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們所有的查核發現其實就跟提供給委員的資料一樣，我們有彙整……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是單一個案嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：類同的狀況應該滿多的。"],["洪委員孟楷：應該滿多的，沒有錯，我客氣了，112年勞動節主題影片是這樣子辦，你的報告裡面113年勞動節影片也是這樣辦啊，而且更貴！831萬要做2支影片，2支影片他是拍了1支影片叫搬家篇，結果分上下集；然後再拍1個30秒的短片，而且沒有重拍，把那個搬家篇變30秒的短片，結果請領了831萬，這更簡單了，他連剪輯都懶，3支影片，2支長篇、1支短篇，831萬，結果他拍1支分上、下集，然後再剪1個精華30秒出來，就可以核銷578萬跟96萬，天底下有那麼「好康」的事，你也「好康」報大家知道吧！有多少青年朋友創業苦哈哈。副審計長，我再請教，知不知道外面行情剪1支影片多少錢？"],["李副審計長順保：不了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有去問？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，因為我們只是個案查核，就裡面不合理的部分，我們蒐集證據把它揭露出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：副審計長，會不會覺得真的非常離譜？我看到你們的報告，我都覺得非常離譜！八百多萬、五百多萬是這樣子濫用人民的納稅錢、這樣濫花，而且更不要講過去3年就業安定基金其實是虧損的，3年虧了200億，結果勞動部是這樣子花錢的，為什麼我要問你？是因為勞動部長皮皮的，他從剛剛到現在都是講說依法行政、依法辦理。而且審計部說修正減列，不用剔除，所以就編公務預算，拿2025年的公務預算去補2021年、2022年、2023年，上下其手出去的預算！上下交相賊，左手給右手，時空旅人之妻啊！2025年的預算來補2021年已經出去的預算，然後核銷檢驗是這樣的狀況，驗收是這樣的狀況，合理嗎？這樣你們還要堅持說這叫做什麼預算不相關、不相符？昨天你們送來的報告，之後還換報告的字眼，然後還要看你剛剛的辯解，還是講說沒有啦、都有用啦，文字都有用啦。我光點出這3點都是你報告裡面的內容，我覺得如果是做工程的話，早就被抓去關了，你怎麼會發包一個標案，講說要做到這件事，我要蓋5間房子，結果變成是蓋1間房子5層樓就驗收通過，會不會太誇張了？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，剛剛前面我也跟其他委員報告，因為這個案子的處理方式是用開口契約，我們覺得這個開口契約裡面，其實它……"],["洪委員孟楷：開口契約可以變成公務預算濫用的理由跟藉口嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：當然不行。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然不行啊！"],["李副審計長順保：因為開口契約的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在為什麼一直跟您堅持說審計單位出來的報告很重要，你們認定到什麼程度，行政部門就可以拿著尚方寶劍，如果你們認定它現在只要修正減列，行政部門就拿到尚方寶劍啊，就編預算來補就好啦，之前的責任是誰？哪一個承辦？那個承辦怎麼驗收的？有沒有圖利的嫌疑？為什麼就只有這家廠商知道可以這樣驗收？其他廠商都沒有辦法，5支就是5支。副審計長，還有沒有再調整的空間？還有沒有要再修正的空間？還有沒有要站在幫中華民國政府把關預算的空間？真的不能濫用。我相信有良知的公務同仁聽到我剛剛這樣子解釋這幾個，歡迎大家去看這次審計的報告，奇文共賞，真的太離譜了！就是因為看到那麼離譜的報告出來，你寫出來的狀況才會讓我們看到過去幾年就安基金被濫用的有多離譜，這有送監察院？"],["李副審計長順保：已經呈報監察院。"],["洪委員孟楷：你覺得監察院會有效果嗎？那麼沒信心？對監察院那麼沒信心？我知道你送給監委，是不是？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有、沒有，我們就直接整個案子呈報給監察院，我們要尊重監察院的處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：監察院內部的審查，監察委員有立案調查了嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：立案調查了，目前還在調查中。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前還在調查中？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：副審計長，互相尊重，立法部門跟監察部門，其實我們都是站在人民的這邊要求督促行政部門。我不會又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草，所以就安基金如果當用用在刀口上，我不會反對！但是這種情況你們都白紙黑字寫出來了，結果還可以放任行政部門沒有去追討相關的責任，而是編列2025年的公務預算去把它給回繳，然後就船過水無痕，就沒事了，我覺得這樣真的、真的不應該。"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，我們會嚴正處理，不會船過水無痕，我們一定會依法來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：副審計長，本席看你剛剛講嚴正處理、依法處理會是什麼樣的狀況，這個案子我還會繼續追，希望我們下一次再見面的時候，你真的可以給我們國人交代跟負起責任。以上，謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，謝謝副審計長。","我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時8分）","繼續開會（11時21分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce1fcea28d21e9f3d7a0ce932bdb5123482eb6e21b32d8c6be5347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:51:44 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兩個禮拜 一個月 兩個月 不知道可是在這談判期 我把它當成談判期在這個談判期我們針對所有的企業被取消的訂單我們政府如何協助這已經是過急症了"},{"start":144.438,"end":165.154,"text":"現在兩個階段這個圖寫得非常清楚台美關稅最後定案也就是我們雙方大家談判之後的結果我們台灣需要讓利在哪一個部分這是後面階段也就是可能受到衝擊的產業政府要如何協助因應"},{"start":166.499,"end":174.77,"text":"也就是可能面對的就是我們現在政府預計要提出特別預算在工業的部分700億農業的部分180億這是後面階段也就是長遠性的"},{"start":181.004,"end":201.414,"text":"因為如果我們台美關稅最後定案這個可能就是一個長期性的狀態我們要面對的就是要如何協助這些受充期的產業可是我們要講的談判期呢這個臨時已經有很多的企業"},{"start":202.728,"end":227.105,"text":"已經被告知他們的訂單可能會被取消甚至有些都已經海運在空中還有甚至已經船起已經出發了這些部分怎麼辦部長這部分怎麼辦報告委員那個船在船上的那個都是他如果在5月"},{"start":228.994,"end":237.68,"text":"5月27號之前到達美國是按照原本的這個稅率我們有一個盤點出來說裝船是在這個4月5號之前"},{"start":242.622,"end":271.243,"text":"那麼他是按照原稅率 也就是說您剛才所指導的這個 準的 開中的這都照本來的稅率啦但是一定要有理由去進行到美國 報官入面所以部長我會用這樣的圖就是要讓你說明清楚現在很多人還不知道所以在4月5號以前只要我們已經上傳或是出關的這些都沒有問題"},{"start":272.043,"end":293.559,"text":"5月27號之前5月27號那一天以前到達美國然後報關這個就是按照原稅率如果是4月5號到4月9號這一段期間他已經發布了那麼加10%的關稅那如果是4月9號以後才出船今天以後才出船的32%這個我"},{"start":296.4,"end":313.016,"text":"我们会在经济部的网站上面还有对我们的马上办中心以及我们的call center上面都会来报告跟国人报告所以这个国人在这方面有需求的"},{"start":313.854,"end":316.996,"text":"不用客氣這個資訊很重要你知道這個資訊很重要嗎其實在這幾天其實我們在基層被問到最多的是那麼如果我們的訂單被取消了怎麼辦"},{"start":332.608,"end":355.604,"text":"好 你剛已經說了有不同的階段如果在5月27號以前可以到美國報關的維持維持也就是我們原來的關稅那麼如果我們在4月5號到4月9號出關的從台灣出關的5月27號前到然後5月7號是增加10%我再一次強調4月5號以前"},{"start":362.849,"end":387.251,"text":"出關然後5月27號以前到達美國的原關稅然後如果4月5號到4月9號這段時間然後這個從台灣出關5月27號以前到美國的加10%那麼其他如果在4月9號以後從台灣出關的就是"},{"start":388.012,"end":397.249,"text":"照他們現在所有的關稅但是現在在談判所以你剛才那個點最後定案為止我們希望"},{"start":398.106,"end":418.623,"text":"会在5月27号以前然后可以这样子谈到一个好的税率然后让台湾的厂商可以来follow up这很重要所以我们希望我们这个最后定案希望是在5月27号以前也就是我们目前在整个"},{"start":420.064,"end":438.912,"text":"關稅到達美國一個界定的時間5月27號如果可以在這5月27號以前完成談判我們就有方向這個是要穩定所有的一個中小企業的信心如果在我們這個談判因為談判不是操之在我"},{"start":439.992,"end":468.82,"text":"不過我們的Priority在前面那在這一段期間裡面我們的業者如果需要紓困如果需要經濟部的協助我想我們都有準備那我們現在有開辦馬上辦中心來解決我們國人業者的擔心這個部分我們都會一一的根據每一個業者不同的情形給予資助"},{"start":469.81,"end":498.276,"text":"部長因為其實我們在基層已經有些有些企業有接到就是要撤訂單的這樣的一個聲音了所以呢如果在這個部分有造成的無薪假或是企業損失在這個部分有需要我們政府來協助的我們有馬上辦中心可以來幫忙是好這個很重要好再來就是第二階段我們現在要去談判嘛"},{"start":499.336,"end":515.273,"text":"談判之後最後因為不是超支在我們我們一定要提出很多的版本那最後版本的定案是什麼當然是未知數因為這是談判的機密也不能請你們在這邊說好我只有說"},{"start":516.534,"end":533.211,"text":"如果在談判之後最後的定案一定會有些受到衝擊真正受到衝擊的產業這個就一個時間就會比較長了就不是這個短時間喔這個時間上有可能未來都要面臨這樣的一個狀態好"},{"start":535.333,"end":563.803,"text":"那這個部分可能就落入到我們現在所講的我們會有特別預算的700億工業700億還有農業我們180億那這幾個方向在企業的部分可能就是資通訊產品電子零組件汽車零組件扣件機械零件自行車運動器材家具或是塑膠製品那其實很多的傳產"},{"start":565.203,"end":582.689,"text":"其實他們的隱形產業都在台南其實部長也知道所以其實雖然我們看到的包括汽車零組件雖然佔了1.8%甚至扣件可是其實很多它的集中地都是在台南"},{"start":584.23,"end":604.857,"text":"報告委員我想我們現在的881是對製造跟對農業上面產生變異的時候的一些支柱那您剛才在提的也非常重要也就是說在商業上面因為這樣而造成的連鎖的這樣的一個反應而造成resection這一部分"},{"start":605.851,"end":627.184,"text":"不在880億裡面這個是院長也有指示880億是第一個階段我們用特別預算來趕快來啟動接著因為後面有一段時間才會反映嘛當我們觀察如果真正的需要我們會再提第二次的這個特別預算我想這個是一個程序啦"},{"start":628.995,"end":650.753,"text":"對 但是部長我們這個要先講給大家知道因為現在我們當然期待我們這個談判是一個對台灣非常有利的結果可是我們一定要讓我們台灣人民有信心讓企業穩定才不會反映在股市當中你看我們的股市"},{"start":651.474,"end":674.117,"text":"在星期一開盤的時候 那個是整個跌停 因為就是失去信心然後慢慢的 我們讓大家有慢慢回升可是這個回升率 還是不及大家的恐慌所以部長 我剛才講的是 當我們在最後台美談判的定案版"},{"start":674.958,"end":693.546,"text":"他可能影響的層面從我們的工業面跟我們的農業面這880億我們的協助之後那麼還有一個商業面這個商業面怎麼做我覺得我們應該不是說我們這一塊先做完那以後再談"},{"start":695.202,"end":721.932,"text":"人民的信心指數所以我覺得我們要講清楚我們現在對外的報告就是短期裡面我們的措施是什麼中期我們會怎麼做長期我們這個國發這個會有一個非常長期的對提升台灣在未來的產業競爭力的部分我們是不是請主委長期的部分長期的部分他已經提了2040年為止的長期的部分是"},{"start":724.81,"end":739.428,"text":"我們長期的部分主要是我們是要去透過三個角度去協助這個廠商第一個是協助企業進行轉型包括轉進到新的市場那因為美國占全球進口市場3.4%這個我們都會講對"},{"start":742.652,"end":772.232,"text":"我們都會講但是其實你所講的這些都沒有辦法直接讓人民有信心也就是說我們長期的所謂當880億我們在這個協助之後所引發的一些商業的影響我們整個市場面的問題台灣市場面的問題人民信心指數的問題在這個部分我們要怎麼幫助我們有沒有什麼樣的配套這才是重要的"},{"start":773.293,"end":797.474,"text":"主委這才是重要的報告委員那個中期的部分您剛才提的大概是短中期的部分那個是有經濟部在負責經濟部在負責我講的是未來長期的部分未來的話我們所謂的長期是那種10年20年的這個叫長期所以我們定義目前這一波的話就短期措施在這幾個月我們這樣做接著在未來的"},{"start":797.654,"end":816.42,"text":"一年內我們會做什麼事情來部長跟主委報告其實我們都來自基層或許你們都認為你們有在做可是這一波真的讓突然之間美國這樣的宣布已經讓所有台灣人民整個非常的驚慌"},{"start":817.6,"end":834.081,"text":"精恐那我覺得我們現在的責任就是穩住大家的信心所以我們希望的不是短期不是中期我們希望的是連同在整個商業面所造成的影響都應該有一個規劃"},{"start":835.803,"end":853.771,"text":"這個不是10年20年這個講太遠了而是你今天我們要給所有的工業轉型沒錯可是轉型不是一年兩年的事啊他要去把訂單從美國轉到歐洲市場也不是一年兩年的事啊這些市場的通路要怎麼抓"},{"start":855.231,"end":865.531,"text":"我覺得這是一個非常必須要面對的現實所以拜託部長跟主委我們希望看到的是你們在未來"},{"start":866.926,"end":886.922,"text":"在如何把這些在講一個標的時候雖然這個是標可是人民的感受不一樣我們希望給我們的是有一些能夠讓人民更加安心我們政府是有在做事情政府不是完全沒有風雲 沒有標拜託 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時51分）謝謝召委，我們請經濟部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。美國把關稅提高變成32%，對臺灣的衝擊真的蠻大的，第一時間我在臉書就已經發布訊息說，這個部分就是因為貿易逆差。因為臺灣商品出口到美國跟美國商品進口到臺灣之間有高額的貿易逆差，造成美國去思考調整關稅。們要共體時艱，怎麼共體時艱就是我們現在要去談的。","政府的因應分兩個階段，我可能比較不一樣，部長，請看這個圖會比較清楚，4月9號就是今天，美國對等關稅的調漲已經要上路了，對不對？好，他也說會有談判期，現在所有的國家，包括臺灣在內，都有提出要跟他談判這樣的方向，也希望能夠有好的結果，所以臺美關稅最後定案，這是一個非常重要的關鍵。部長，你看這個圖，從4月9號到臺美正式關稅最後定案，這當中到底是一個禮拜、兩個禮拜、一個月、兩個月不知道。我把它當成談判期，在這個談判期，針對所有企業被取消的訂單，我們政府如何協助？這已經是掛急診了。","現在分兩個階段，這個圖寫得非常清楚，臺美關稅最後定案也就是雙方談判之後的結果，我們臺灣需要讓利在哪一個部分，這是後面的階段。也就是可能受到衝擊的產業，政府要如何協助、因應，可能面對的就是我們現在政府預計要提出特別預算，在工業的部分700億，農業的部分180億，這是後面的階段，也就是長遠性的。因為如果臺美關稅最後定案，這個可能就是一個長期性的狀態，我們要面對的就是如何協助這些受衝擊的產業。我們要講的是，談判期呢？已經有很多企業臨時被告知他們的訂單可能會被取消，甚至有些經由海運、空運的已經在海上、在空中，或者已經安排船期出發了，這些部分怎麼辦？部長，這個部分怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，在船上的部分，如果在5月27號之前到達美國，是按照原本的稅率，這個部分我們有一個盤點，裝船是在4月5號之前的是按照原稅率，也就是您剛才所指導的船在海上的，這都照原來的稅率，但是一定要在5月27號之前到美國報關進去。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以部長，我會用這樣的圖就是要讓你說明清楚，現在很多人還不知道，所以……"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，而且……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以在4月5號以前只要已經上船或是出關的，這些都沒有問題？"],["郭部長智輝：5月27號那一天以前會到達美國，然後報關，這個就是按照原稅率；如果是4月5號到4月9號這一段期間，就是他已經發布了的，那麼加10%的關稅；如果是4月9號以後才出船的，也就是今天以後才出船的，那就是32%，這個都會在經濟部的網站、我們的馬上辦中心以及我們的call 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up。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這個很重要，所以我們希望這個的最後定案是在5月27號以前，也就是我們目前在整個關稅到達美國一個界定的時間，如果可以在5月27號以前完成談判，我們就有方向，這個是要穩定所有中小企業的信心啦！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為談判不是操之在我啦，不過我們的priority……"],["陳委員亭妃：希望嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們的priority在前面，在這一段期間裡面，我們的業者如果需要紓困，如果需要經濟部的協助，我想我們都有準備，我們現在有開辦馬上辦中心來解決我們國人、業者的擔心，這個部分我們都會一一的根據每一個業者不同的情形給予資助。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，因為我們在基層所聽到的是，已經有些企業接到要撤訂單的聲音了，所以如果在這個部分有造成無薪假或是企業損失，這個部分有需要我們政府來協助的，我們有馬上辦中心可以來幫忙？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個很重要。好，再來就是第二階段，我們現在要去談判，談判之後，因為最後不是操之在我們，我們一定要提出很多的版本，最後定案的版本是什麼當然是未知數，因為這是談判的機密，也不能請你們在這邊說。好，如果在談判之後，最後的定案一定會有些真正受到衝擊的產業，這個時間就會比較長了，不是短時間，時間上有可能未來都要面臨這樣一個狀態，這個部分可能就落入到我們現在所講的，我們會有特別預算的工業700億和農業180億，這幾個方向在企業的部分可能就是資通訊產品、電子零組件、汽車零組件、扣件，機械零件、自行車、運動器材、傢俱或是塑膠製品，其實很多這些傳產的隱形產業都在臺南，部長也知道，我們看到包括汽車零組件雖然只占1.8%，甚至扣件，可是其實很多的集中地都是在臺南。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在的880億是對製造跟農業上產生變異的時候提供一些支助，您剛才所提也非常重要，也就是說在商業上面，因為這樣而造成連鎖反應及recession的這一部分不在880億裡。"],["陳委員亭妃：對。"],["郭部長智輝：院長也有指示，880億是第一個階段，我們用特別預算趕快來啟動，接著因為後面有一段時間才會反應。"],["陳委員亭妃：是。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會觀察，如果真正有需要，我們會再提第二次的特別預算，我想這是一個程序。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，但是部長，這要先講給大家知道，現在我們當然期待談判對臺灣是非常有利的結果，可是我們一定要讓臺灣人民有信心、讓企業穩定，才不會反映在股市當中。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：你看我們的股市在星期一開盤的時候是整個跌停，就是因為失去信心，我們想讓大家慢慢回升，可是這個回升率還是不及大家的恐慌。部長，我剛剛講的是，最後臺美談判的定案版可能影響的層面，從我們的工業面和農業面，經過這880億的協助之後，還有一個商業面，這個商業面怎麼做？我覺得我們應該不是說先把這一塊做完以後再談，人民的信心指數……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，我覺得我們要講清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在對外的報告就是短期裡的措施是什麼，中期我們會怎麼做，至於長期，國發會有一個對於長期的、要提升臺灣未來產業競爭力的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：來，長期的部分，我們是不是請主委？"],["郭部長智輝：他已經提了到2040年為止……"],["陳委員亭妃：來，長期的部分。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，長期的部分我們主要是透過三個角度去協助廠商，第一個是協助企業進行轉型，包括轉進到新的市場，因為美國占全球進口市場只有3.4%……"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，這個我們都會講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是其實你所講的這些都沒有辦法直接讓人民有信心，也就是說，長期的，在這個880億的協助之後所引發的一些商業的影響，整個市場面的問題、臺灣市場面的問題、人民信心指數的問題，在這個部分我們要怎麼幫助？有沒有什麼樣的配套？主委，這才是重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才提的大概是短、中期的部分，那個是由經濟部在負責……"],["陳委員亭妃：我講的是未來長期的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：但是未來的話，我們所謂的長期是十年、二十年的叫長期，所以我們定義目前這一波就是用短期措施，在這幾個月我們會這樣子做，接著在未來一年內，我們會做什麼事情，這個我們都有政策。"],["陳委員亭妃：跟部長跟主委報告，其實我們來自基層，或許你們都認為你們有在做，可是這一波是突然之間美國這樣宣布，真的已經讓所有臺灣人民非常驚慌、驚恐。我覺得現在我們的責任就是穩住大家的信心，所以我們希望的不是短期、不是中期，我們希望的是，連同在整個商業面所造成的影響都應該有一個規劃，不是十年、二十年，這個講太遠了，而是今天我們要讓所有的工業轉型，沒錯，可是轉型不是一年、兩年的事，它要去把訂單從美國轉到歐洲市場也不是一年、兩年的事，這些市場的通路要怎麼抓？我覺得這是一個必須要面對的現實，所以拜託部長跟主委，我們希望看到的是你們在未來如何把這些……在講一個標題的時候，雖然這個是標題，可是人民的感受不一樣，我們希望給予我們的是能夠讓人民更加安心、我們政府是有在做事情，政府不是完全沒方向、沒目標，拜託，謝謝。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲代）：請謝衣鳯召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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常多的單位但是邀請的首長很多都用請假的方式那有一些當然因為在可能其他的委員會我知道他們有這個業務報告"},{"start":20.64,"end":39.031,"text":"那這個就情有可原但是也很多也不曉得為什麼就直接就用請假的方式我覺得這對我們司法法治委員會是相當的不尊重這部分一定要這個云以譴責來那個表示我們的意見那接下來我請我們的移民署今天是是副署長還有陸委會也是副主委"},{"start":53.162,"end":73.712,"text":"那個王委員那個有關今天有很多人請假這件事情我們剛剛有處理剛剛有委員有提出來那我這邊的意思是說因為有一些人之前也都沒有跟我提那我今天早上才知道那確實有兩位部會首長是在那個國防外交委員會那邊對我知道有的其他的他就是"},{"start":74.412,"end":97.787,"text":"給我們的理由就是因公務啦那事實上細節是什麼我們會再了解對因為主席我剛剛就講就是說因為我知道有一些首長他是有在其他的委員會而且事前請假那如果是還臨時性的請假只是說用公務我覺得這是非常非常不尊重我們司法法制委員會而且你要請假你也可以提早來說而不是這樣臨時性的來通知這個我們的"},{"start":101.849,"end":118.655,"text":"招委跟主席這是非常非常不禮貌的所以我們當然予以譴責謝謝主席今天的我們的主要的這個題目叫做言論自由事實上過去包含民進黨"},{"start":119.835,"end":122.857,"text":"非常遵從的鄭南榮先生100%的言論自由賴清德總統在選舉的時候也說他支持100%的言論自由到了最近呢賴清德總統又去祭拜鄭南榮先生仍然在講100%的言論自由"},{"start":139.446,"end":154.839,"text":"但是現在看起來民進黨執政之後這個所謂的百分之百的言論自由這個百分之百它的含水量變得非常非常的高因為它加了很多的前提好 可是今天呢我為什麼來找移民署跟陸委會"},{"start":157.461,"end":170.956,"text":"因為最近這兩天 大家都可以看到不只是網路上的炸鍋 還有我們各個民意代表選民服 我相信包含民進黨的委員因為在你們的選區裡面 在你們的選民裡面也有很多來自於陸配或者陸配的家庭"},{"start":179.085,"end":188.932,"text":"特別是最近所去調查的要求來台灣尤其在這次影響最深的就是民國93年之前而且你取得身份證的這些陸配所以可以看到最近其實我們收到的很多的選民陳情是來自於他們的子女因為他們到台灣來 嫁到台灣來都已經二三十年了"},{"start":208.907,"end":214.589,"text":"結果我們現在呢我們的陸委會跟移民署卻是一個鋪天蓋地的要求已經來台灣二三十年的陸配要求他們在三個月之內必須提出證明在中國大陸已經撤銷戶籍撤銷國籍的相關的證明否則的話三個月內就要被除籍"},{"start":238.178,"end":255.116,"text":"就要被除籍所以可以看到陆配的家庭一片哀嚎有很多的子女说今天难道我的妈妈要变成政治人球了吗我的妈妈来了二三十年她很多的原生家庭可能原生家庭都不在了"},{"start":255.757,"end":278.399,"text":"那他如何到已經來台灣三十年了然後突然要求他三個月內去拿到這些資料否則你在台灣就被取消戶籍所以我想請問一下移民署跟陸委會我也看到你們昨天也分別的宣布一些補救的措施因為這個實在是我覺得對台灣"},{"start":279.48,"end":282.163,"text":"來講台灣真的應該還是很有人道的而且對於陸配的家庭你如果說你今天說什麼以國安調查就是你來台灣可能幾年內那他比較好去取得這些資料可是事實上因為在後來我們的疫情之後這些其實都已經清查過了"},{"start":299.281,"end":323.998,"text":"最先影響最大的一批反而是來台灣二三十年的這些陸配所以我想請問一下陸委會或移民署你們的補救措施是什麼還是說通通只是用個案處理還是某一些程度你們可以用通案的方式去處理不要造成這些陸配家庭他們的大恐慌"},{"start":325.14,"end":347.752,"text":"跟委員報告一下 其實根據兩岸條例9-1在2004年的修法就是說在2004年修法之前已經拿到台灣身份的陸配他必須在六個月之內繳回在大陸除籍的證明否則就是要去除掉台灣的身份"},{"start":349.986,"end":374.873,"text":"現在有發生很多啊2004年民國93年20幾年前而且那個時候拿到身份證要8年對不對所以他很多都已經來了真的二三十年了當時他拿出來的時候他說他都已經繳過那現在他拿不出來所以我還想說你們現在都是要用個案處理還是有通案處理辦法委員講的沒有錯就是說其實按照法律條文如果要嚴格執行"},{"start":379.102,"end":393.613,"text":"這些都沒有繳的 實際上政府機關就必須要把他台灣的身份去除掉你們二三十年不執行這個法律所以我們現在做清查然後給大家時間回去拿其實就是在法律之外三個月之內要繳出來時間合理嗎"},{"start":407.263,"end":416.389,"text":"他來台灣三十年 你讓他三個月內找出來不然的話 你就變成政治人球你要讓他淪為政治難民嗎他的原生家庭可能都不在了"},{"start":417.786,"end":439.077,"text":"原生家庭在不在跟他有沒有辦法回到那邊的派出所取得文件那是兩回事情就算他家庭不在了他如果能夠回到那邊的派出所取得文件那個還是可以的三個月之內要回去對那我們現在的三個月之內要回去他即便臥床了對不對跟委員報告一下他有任何的原因了沒有錯所以"},{"start":439.497,"end":462.792,"text":"任何人任何這個家庭他如果說他覺得他提出說他確實有什麼樣的困難譬如說他說這個當年他的身份證件是從什麼救災總會來幫他申請有特別提到有的已經交給當時的中華救災總會了那這個東西我們都要去了解到底有沒有這回事"},{"start":463.712,"end":483.509,"text":"所以我覺得現在對我們來講的話就是說我們願意讓所有的收到我們通知的這些家庭或是陸配他們提出來說他們有什麼樣的理由是確實有辦法拿回去因為這兩天我知道我剛剛講過其實因為我們其實服務案件是不分藍綠的"},{"start":484.89,"end":493.242,"text":"你能講說陸配指頭給在野黨嗎我真的覺得門心自問副主委你也是明代出身你該講你當時的選民沒有陸配會來自陸配家庭嗎今天讓他們雞飛狗跳"},{"start":500.192,"end":508.116,"text":"讓他們覺得飽受這些壓力合理嗎你於心何忍我要問的是今天很多的委員通通來找昨天移民署也來我辦公室來做說明我們看很多委員都在急著在處理這些選民服務因為他們非常著急三個月其實很短的時間"},{"start":523.462,"end":548.236,"text":"好 所以我才要求再透過這次諮詢我希望 包含陸委會跟移民署你們應該要有一些通案性的解決老師說 我們在很多有法律的部分比如說我們什麼追稅 即便是確定的欠稅它的追溯期也是15年啊通緝犯可以通緝幾年 對不對你只有30年之前 你要求你給我交出來"},{"start":549.933,"end":572.652,"text":"你覺得合理嗎是不是我們如果在很多的法律上都有一個追溯的期間老實說啦如果他們是共匪他們是共諜潛伏在這邊二三十年你們自己政府都不執法啊剛講說這是依法執行對啊什麼時候定的法呢2004年啊民國93年距離現在多久了"},{"start":573.493,"end":589.432,"text":"我說難聽點 這個裡面國民黨執政 民進黨執政 民進黨弱權這個很重要那你們過去九年在睡覺嗎 是不是為什麼要讓老百姓這麼痛苦好 我因為我時間有限 我可不可以請移民署你們有 我知道你們今天也被罵爆了啦 對不對"},{"start":591.798,"end":616.518,"text":"所以請問移民署有沒有一些相關的一些通案的方式可以去解決呢?謝謝委員在這裡先跟委員說明一下其實兩岸分配以來有36萬的大陸配合其中已經獲得在台定居的共有14萬多人那我們經查大多數的人都有繳付上司員籍的證明"},{"start":617.259,"end":641.952,"text":"那目前這個部分沒有繳納的這個部分大概有多少萬 我知道有好幾萬人一萬出頭那這個部分可能我們也是在想說它是不是疫情的關係或者它其他的因素比方說它的健康的因素或者有少數政治風險 比方法輪功的"},{"start":642.492,"end":668.037,"text":"比方假設這些他們沒有辦法返回中國大陸來辦理我們會就這些個案我們來做處理那民眾呢如果在實際上有真的無法克服的困難那我們也開一個那個設有服務的電子信箱還有我們全省有22個服務站都有電話我們也希望說"},{"start":668.897,"end":683.773,"text":"這些個案他即使來反映那我們針對這些特殊的個案我們會同陸委會跟海基會來嚴處然後尋求一個妥適的解決之道我要講的就是說我們現在各委員辦公室說實在你們也確實"},{"start":685.094,"end":702.944,"text":"也一定疲於奔命但疲於奔命也是應該的因為大家都碰到我們現在有的委員甚至說我們大家聯合起來聯合起來因為我這邊有兩三個其他委員有兩三個 都有這樣大家聯合起來一起把它說清楚講明白所以我希望我在這邊為什麼要透過諮詢我希望"},{"start":705.686,"end":715.61,"text":"移民署還有陸委會能夠延伸一個就是他可以適用是屬於比較通案型的有一些 比如說在什麼樣的狀況之下你可以給予他緩衝的期間比如我剛剛講說有的因為他在臥床啊你讓他怎麼去啊你要讓他怎麼去呢 對不對或者他現在真的就已經沒有辦法他認為他真的原生家不是說你原生家庭啊沒有關係啊反正你就去啊 對不對"},{"start":733.876,"end":759.749,"text":"不是每一個 這個陸配尤其他可能有一些年齡了 對不對所以我覺得我們今天在處理這個事情的時候第一個基於人道的處理 好不好因為其實我們現在接獲的大部分都是來自於陸配的子女而且他們憤憤不平覺得怎麼會突然他的媽媽要變成有這樣的一個待遇"},{"start":760.919,"end":771.75,"text":"好不好 所以我希望你們能夠在最短的時間內有一些可以通案的就通案 我剛才講了嘛第一個 我們先要怪罪是什麼政府你不作為啊 是不是二十多年了"},{"start":776.26,"end":797.759,"text":"你如果依法是二十幾年前定的法律你政府不作為現在造成人民他的不便請問一下錯誤的是人民還是錯誤的是政府請問一下副主委這個事情其實從2004年到現在藍綠政黨都輪替過所以這個事情我認為就是它不是藍綠的問題而是這個制度的問題然後"},{"start":802.583,"end":830.335,"text":"你執行就有問題嘛沒有錯那所以委員講的沒有錯啦就是說我們會去設計一些這個怎麼樣的標準譬如說年齡或者是健康這些東西我們都會把它考慮進去但是因為現在的法律規定就是這樣子我們也沒有辦法說透過解釋然後做不執行所以目前的話我們會在法律跟人道之間做一個最大的權衡謝謝而且我覺得"},{"start":831.616,"end":857.439,"text":"我覺得這個當然因為現在很特殊我覺得該修法就修法我剛剛講了我們在很多的法律上的追溯我們都還定定追溯期了對不對然後現在是無限期的這樣子一直直接的追溯所以我覺得這個當然這是比較長期的但是在最短期我希望能夠有一個比較屬於通案性的來協助這些不知所措的這些家庭好不好"},{"start":860.526,"end":861.874,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在會請吳思堯委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":570,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時42分）謝謝主席。主席，在發言之前，我想做一下譴責，因為今天我們邀請非常多單位，但是單位首長很多都用請假方式而缺席，當然有一些人可能是在其他委員會備詢，我知道他們有業務報告，這情有可原，但也有很多是不曉得為什麼就直接請假，我覺得這對司法及法制委員會是相當不尊重，這部分一定要予以譴責，以表示我們的意見。","接下來我要請移民署副署長，還有陸委會副主委。"],["主席：麻煩移民署副署長，還有副主委。","王委員，有關今天有很多人請假的這件事情，我們剛剛有處理，因為剛剛也有委員提出來，我這邊的意思是，因為有一些人之前並沒有跟我請假，我是今天早上才知道，確實有兩位部會首長是在外交及國防委員會那邊……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我知道有其他的委員會。"],["主席：其他的給我們的理由就是因公務，事實上細節是什麼，我們會再了解。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，就像我剛剛講的，我知道有一些首長是在其他委員會，而且是事前請假，如果是臨時性的請假，只是說另有公務，我覺得這是非常非常不尊重司法及法制委員會，而且要請假也應該提早說，而不是這樣臨時性的通知召委、主席，這是非常不禮貌的，所以我們當然要予以譴責，謝謝主席。","今天我們的主要題目叫做「言論自由」，事實上，包含過去民進黨非常尊崇的鄭南榕先生，他是支持百分之百言論自由；賴清德總統在選舉的時候，也說他支持百分之百的言論自由，到了最近，賴清德總統又去祭拜鄭南榕先生，仍然在講百分之百的言論自由，但是現在看起來，民進黨執政之後，所謂百分之百的言論自由，這個「百分之百」，含水量卻變得非常非常高，因為加了很多前提。","今天我為什麼來找移民署跟陸委會？因為最近這兩天，大家可以看到不只網路上炸鍋，還有我們各個民意代表的選民服務，相信包含民進黨委員也是，因為在你們的選區裡面、你們的選民裡面，應該也有很多陸配或者陸配家庭，特別是最近你們所要求的調查，影響最深的應該是民國93年之前來臺，而且已經取得身分證的這些陸配。最近我們收到很多選民陳情是來自於他們的子女，因為他們到臺灣來、嫁到臺灣來都已經二、三十年，結果現在陸委會跟移民署卻是鋪天蓋地的要求這些已經來臺灣二、三十年的陸配，要在三個月內提出在中國大陸已經撤銷戶籍、撤銷國籍的相關證明，否則就要被除籍。可以看到陸配的家庭是一片哀嚎，有很多子女說：難道今天我的媽媽要變成政治人球了嗎？他們的媽媽來了二、三十年，其中有很多人的原生家庭可能都不在了，現在突然要求他們在三個月內拿到這些資料，否則就會被取消在臺灣的戶籍。對此，我想請問移民署跟陸委會，我當然也看到你們昨天分別宣布了一些補救措施，因為臺灣應該還是很有人道的國家，而且對陸配的家庭而言，如果今天是基於國安理由來調查，可能就是針對來臺灣幾年的人，他們比較好去取得這些資料，可是事實上，後來因為疫情影響，這些其實都已經清查過了，這次調查影響最大的一批，反而是來臺灣已經二、三十年的這些陸配。所以我想請問一下陸委會或移民署，你們的補救措施是什麼？通通都只用個案處理？還是某一些程度可以用通案方式處理，不要造成這些陸配家庭的大恐慌？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告一下，其實根據2004年兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一的修法，在2004年修法之前已經拿到臺灣身分的陸配，他必須在六個月之內繳回在大陸除籍的證明，否則就是要去除掉臺灣的身分……"],["王委員鴻薇：現在有發生很多，2004年、民國93年是二十幾年前……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：而且那個時候拿到身分證要8年，所以很多人真的都已經來了二、三十年了，而且當時他拿出來，他說他當時都已經繳過，但現在他拿不出來，所以我才想，你們現在都是要個案處理，還是有通案處理的辦法？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員講得沒有錯，其實按照法律條文，如果要嚴格執行，這些都沒有繳的，實際上政府機關就必須要把他臺灣的身分去除掉，我們現在……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們二、三十年不執行這個法律，民國93年就有法律，你不執行，然後你突然現在……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以我們現在做清查，然後給大家時間回去拿，其實就是在法律之外……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那這個時間合理嗎？三個月之內要繳出來，時間合理嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們現在接到……"],["王委員鴻薇：他來臺灣三十年，你讓他三個月內繳出來，不然的話他就變成政治人球，你要讓他淪為政治難民嗎？他的原生家庭可能都不在了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：原生家庭在不在跟他有沒有辦法回到那邊的派出所取得文件，那是兩回事，就算他的家庭不在了，他如果能夠回到那邊的派出所取得文件，那個還是可以的。"],["王委員鴻薇：三個月之內要回去，即便他臥床了，也是三個月之內要回去，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告一下……"],["王委員鴻薇：他有任何的原因……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯，所以任何人、任何家庭，如果他提出他確實有什麼樣的困難，譬如說，他說當年他的身分證件是什麼救助總會來幫他申請的……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，有特別提到有的已經繳給當時的中華救助總會了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這些東西我們都要去了解到底有沒有這回事，所以我覺得現在對我們來講，我們願意讓所有收到我們通知的這些家庭或是陸配提出他們有什麼樣的理由是確實沒有辦法拿回……"],["王委員鴻薇：副主委，我剛剛講過，我們服務案件是不分藍綠的，你能講說陸配只投給在野黨嗎？我真的覺得，捫心自問，副主委，你也是民代出身，你敢講你當時的選民沒有陸配或來自陸配家庭嗎？今天讓他們雞飛狗跳，讓他們覺得飽受這些壓力，合理嗎？你於心何忍？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，這跟藍綠無關。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要問的是，今天很多的委員通通來找……昨天移民署也來我辦公室說明，我們看很多委員都急著在處理這些選民服務，因為他們非常著急，三個月其實是很短的時間，所以我才要求再透過這次質詢，我希望陸委會跟移民署應該要有一些通案性的解決。老實說，我們在很多法律的部分，比如說追稅，即便是確定的欠稅，它的追溯期也是十五年，通緝犯可以通緝幾年？現在幾乎是三十年之前，你要求他們交出來，你覺得合理嗎？我們在很多的法律上都有一個追溯的期間，老實說，如果他們是共匪、他們是共諜，潛伏在這邊二、三十年，你們自己政府都不執法！剛剛講說這是依法執行，對啊！什麼時候定的法呢？2004年、民國93年，距離現在多久了？我說難聽點，這段時間裡面國民黨執政、民進黨執政，民進黨如果覺得這個很重要，那你們過去九年在睡覺嗎？為什麼要讓老百姓這麼痛苦？因為我的時間有限，我知道移民署你們今天也被罵爆了啦！請問移民署有沒有一些相關的通案方式可以去解決呢？"],["陳副署長建成：謝謝委員，在這裡先跟委員說明一下，其實兩岸婚配以來有36萬的大陸配偶，其中已經獲得在臺定居的共有十四萬多人，我們經查，大多數的人都有繳附喪失原籍的證明，目前沒有繳納的這個部分，我們現在原則上……"],["王委員鴻薇：大概有多少萬人？我知道有好幾萬人。"],["陳副署長建成：一萬出頭，這個部分我們也在想他是不是因為疫情的關係或者其他的因素，比方說他的健康因素，或者少數有政治風險，比方法輪功的，假設這些人沒有辦法返回中國大陸來辦理，我們會就這些個案來做處理。民眾如果在實際上有真的無法克服的困難，我們也設有服務的電子信箱，還有我們全省有22個服務站都有電話，我們也希望這些個案即時來反映，針對這些特殊的個案，我們會會同陸委會跟海基會研處，尋求一個妥適的解決之道。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的就是，現在各委員辦公室，說實在你們確實也一定疲於奔命，但疲於奔命也是應該的，因為大家都碰到，現在有的委員甚至說我們大家聯合起來，因為我這邊有兩、三個，其他委員也有兩、三個，大家聯合起來一起把它說清楚講明白，所以我在這邊為什麼要透過質詢？我希望移民署還有陸委會能夠研商一個屬於比較通案型的，在什麼樣的狀況之下，你可以給予他緩衝的期間，比如我剛剛講的，有的因為他在臥床，你要讓他怎麼去呢？或者他現在真的就已經沒有辦法，他認為他的原生家庭……不是說跟他的原生家庭沒有關係，反正你就去。不是每一個陸配都是這樣，尤其他可能有一些年齡了，所以我覺得我們今天在處理這個事情的時候，第一個，基於人道的處理，好不好？因為我們現在接獲的大部分都是來自於陸配的子女，而且他們忿忿不平，覺得他的媽媽怎麼會突然變成遭到這樣的一個待遇。所以我希望你們能夠在最短的時間內處理，有一些可以通案的就通案，我剛才講了，第一個，我們現在怪罪的是政府的不作為，是不是？二十多年了，如果依法，是二十幾年前定的法律，政府的不作為現在造成人民的不便，請問一下，錯誤的是人民還是錯誤的是政府？請問一下副主委？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個事情從2004年到現在，藍綠政黨都輪替過，所以這個事情我認為不是藍綠的問題，而是制度的問題，然後……"],["王委員鴻薇：你執行就有問題嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯，所以委員講的沒有錯啦！就是我們會去設計一些標準，譬如說年齡或者是健康，這些東西我們都會把它考慮進去，但是因為現在的法律規定就是這樣子，我們也沒有辦法透過解釋，然後不執行，所以目前我們會在法律跟人道之間做一個最大的權衡，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然因為現在很特殊，我覺得該修法就修法，我剛剛講了，我們在很多法律上的追溯都還訂定了追溯期，然後現在是無限期的一直追溯，這個當然是比較長期的，但是在最短期，我希望能夠有一個比較屬於通案性的方式來協助這些不知所措的家庭，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言，依照剛剛會議宣告，吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"159956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce4f440e945e7b9034a9dd72f8e909e2236e4b1f34053c89dea913c6d79a6ea1625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:47:48 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是說他現在這29人是如何產生的"},{"start":30.834,"end":49.373,"text":"這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體雇主團體資方就資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過"},{"start":53.22,"end":79.702,"text":"我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎"},{"start":83.194,"end":111.964,"text":"主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎"},{"start":113.183,"end":139.853,"text":"對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個7000多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢"},{"start":141.98,"end":164.607,"text":"跟路人說明 我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品 可以辦演唱會這些事情在你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎"},{"start":165.807,"end":181.016,"text":"29個人其實都沒有一個人來質疑過所以我們覺得其實在這個包括在會議的資料上面或者是其實相關的審議的過程裡面這也是為什麼我們定定審議我們接下來定定審議要點那來協助委員們然後做更強化的把關"},{"start":181.696,"end":198.022,"text":"那謝一龍這個案件如果你要怎麼來預防如果按照我們直接委員會這個這個層級的話跟路人說明我們其實接下來會在致用原則上面直接就明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用"},{"start":198.602,"end":216.743,"text":"對我有看到你的管理面什麼資訊公開面這些那在用途面我剛才講的是在用途面我們會來訂定基金的資用原則所以在資用原則上面我們希望就直接就把包括大家現在很詬病的禮品的採購或者是跟一些跟"},{"start":217.827,"end":240.747,"text":"比方說大家最詬病的是那個軌道燈的使用直接在這個職用原則上面就直接規定以後就是直接禁止的這甚至都不用進到委員會裡面我看到你們今天開了兩次會那我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是說督促嗎當然其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面的時候"},{"start":241.187,"end":269.266,"text":"就已經是用新的強化把關的機制在運作包括提供資訊包括相關的審議了我有幾個建議就是說你可能勞動發展署這邊你的牽涉的議題非常的廣非常的複雜還可能牽涉到其他機關所以我是覺得說你們是不是應該也要分組像我們之前在我們原轉會好了就是我們之前蔡英文總統的那個原轉會他也會有分教育組有分土地組有分什麼組"},{"start":269.986,"end":298.674,"text":"所以當然我講老公的問題當然有很多種那29個人裡面是不是可以去分組把工作來消化不然那麼多資料給大家可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎你有時間去消化這些資料嗎所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化個別來討論這個所謂的層層負責或者說每一件事情來去看它的是不是符合所謂的法規所以我是覺得應該是"},{"start":299.614,"end":319.644,"text":"要這樣而不是是虛設一個29人在那裡可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道有人就像你上面投影片上面寫的我們從原本是5000萬以上會納入內控現在其實已經擴大到2000萬以上而且我們還會設定一個外部的這個外積的集合的機制這個部分是現在5000萬變2000萬是內控"},{"start":322.165,"end":333.478,"text":"可是我們還會設定一個外部的集合由法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定大家特別關心的議題上面直接做集合這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體的做法"},{"start":334.113,"end":352.872,"text":"那我看到對啊 那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格 可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度 因為會更多 會更多量對不對 本來以前是2000萬以上嘛 現在是2000萬以上嘛 所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分 你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題"},{"start":355.981,"end":374.61,"text":"最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是"},{"start":375.911,"end":389.451,"text":"勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的"},{"start":390.552,"end":407.42,"text":"所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有針對青年人的也有執訓中心"},{"start":408.32,"end":421.457,"text":"可是原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面"},{"start":422.495,"end":446.226,"text":"跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料"},{"start":447.586,"end":460.947,"text":"或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的"},{"start":462.669,"end":487.983,"text":"所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PITS上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央"},{"start":489.064,"end":494.094,"text":"補助的就業的資源 我們怎麼樣來做準 這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好 那我就期待 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你講委員 刪減被刪了800凍結應該凍了1900大概2000我看到這邊資料怎麼只有600勒"},{"start":61.121,"end":68.969,"text":"可是你的資料不是很正確三減 院會三減的部分是啥2185三減 三減了800凍結凍了將近2000所以一定會影響到產檢價 賠產檢價相關的薪資補貼這是為什麼會影響到新手爸媽的權利的原因"},{"start":82.765,"end":95.23,"text":"所以我們勞動條件及就業平等是業務一共編了9714萬元那我這邊資料是你是講統產的部分嗎就是這一項裡面被刪了800萬跟被凍結了2000萬左右但是裡面有8500多萬就是用在產檢價跟配產檢價的薪資補貼所以一定會影響到的"},{"start":115.017,"end":125.017,"text":"所以影響多少?這樣影響會多少?在下半年我們相關的這些津貼的合法商一定會影響到的在下半年?那前半年不會?"},{"start":129.679,"end":157.434,"text":"我們其實當然希望都不要影響到新手爸媽的權益但是很遺憾的是就是會影響到那你們有為這個事情提出來了嗎有沒有提出這個意見你們的意見我們在之前其實就已經要提出來說這筆預算是關乎新手爸媽的權益可是現在就是會影響到了所以我沒有在造謠這是真的會發生的事情那你趕快提出來啊"},{"start":160.591,"end":176.839,"text":"你不要在外面講嘛那你是不是可以馬上我們不是只有在外面講我們說我們提出復議可是復議被否定你不能做追加嗎所以那時候我們在委員會行政院提出復議可是很遺憾復議被否決不是我是說你為什麼不在委員會來提"},{"start":178.714,"end":190.983,"text":"因為這個是一個整體的影響所以當時行政院是提出復議的方式但復議被否決啦我們希望透過復議能夠爭取這些相關的預算能夠再有多的討論跟審議的機會可是在復議被否決啊那這邊不能提我這樣問的你不要再講到院會嘛"},{"start":198.226,"end":225.314,"text":"這是一個整體的你不能提解凍嗎所以我們要說第一個確實六個山洞是有影響的第二個是我們也想要解決問題那你應該是提出來嘛對不對你如果有這個問題你是不是現在要提出來我們當然希望跟各政黨能夠再做一些討論如果你真的是為了這個我們年輕人著想那你為什麼現在不趕快做這件事情"},{"start":226.278,"end":234.785,"text":"我們是為了年輕人才好所以編列這個預算所以不希望這個預算當時被這樣煽動所以這樣煽動會影響年輕人你要怎麼繼續處理這個問題就一直喊就好我們沒有喊我們說當時提出的副議啊你要不要做嘛我們提出了副議但副議沒有要提出來啊什麼時候要提出來嘛"},{"start":244.707,"end":261.356,"text":"你不要講婦嬰婦嬰已經否決了對不對婦嬰否決就是讓人遺憾的事情那你現在咧現在咧我們是不是有講過你如果有自在難行你是不是可以提出來是所以我們提出婦嬰什麼時候你講那個廢話還在婦嬰現在廢話就沒婦嬰就已經結束了還在還在要繞回去怎麼可能呢你還在還要繞回去還硬啊"},{"start":272.677,"end":283.076,"text":"委員這不是硬拗那你現在怎麼處理嘛我們當然可以 我們接下來才可以大家再做跟草野各界來做討論你可以提出來啊 叫你提出來你什麼時候要提出來嘛"},{"start":284.571,"end":308.871,"text":"我們這個相關的案子 我們會跟行政院來討論一定要提上面 你自己不會討論就對了那當然提是 提是討論不提那等上面指示 你們可以講才講是嗎那等大罷免結束之後 你們再來為年輕人來著想是嗎還是這個事情你要來利用一直燒 燒到大罷免結束我們正式為年輕人著想 所以當時才如果你真的是想要處理事情你如果真的是想要處理事情"},{"start":309.571,"end":317.454,"text":"這個三點跟凍結是事實事實 我現在沒有說不是事實這個三點跟凍結是事實你要不要提出來解要不要提出來解嘛你不要提出來解你就閉嘴那麼我現在問你的是你現在什麼時候要提出來"},{"start":332.864,"end":343.61,"text":"我們會找我們會適當時機會來提相關還可以再做的做法只是我們必須表達確實這個刪減跟凍結就是事實好那我現在問那你盡快好不好那我們問審計部一下救援好救援基金裡面7224萬元用途不符本來就是用途不符為什麼要給我們的報告改成關聯性不高"},{"start":362.995,"end":375.212,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們跟審計部發的審核通知跟勞動部的歷次的申付其實這兩個用詞都有在用為什麼要臨時蓋嗎沒有我們只是把它文字再重新整理"},{"start":375.925,"end":398.997,"text":"所以是你的意思沒有 我內部在校對的時候就覺得跟所以你認為這個說法比較正確沒有 就是我們等於是大家一個比較雙方都可以共同認同的說法你113年底給財政委員會的報告也是寫用途不符那這一次是誰叫你改的沒有 這個原來我們就就內部在校對就做這樣的處理"},{"start":400.287,"end":412.954,"text":"那個好用途不符就是用途不符改幾個字不反我用的事實會改變嗎不會那現在就是欲蓋彌彰嘛對不對這把事實呈現給大眾有那麼難嗎"},{"start":414.653,"end":433.13,"text":"我們從這個案子我們調查跟揭露還有移送檢調在後續偵辦還有呈報監察院的我們都是按照我們查核發現的證據完整呈現給相關的單位我們沒有任何掩飾那救援基金濫用的部分為什麼你用檢列不是用剔除"},{"start":434.093,"end":451.698,"text":"其實公文包因為現在113年度他的決算已經編我們現在在審決算所以你們這個追討手段可以用剔除直接進入強制執行嘛檢列腳褲是由財政部追討那如果只做檢列就是財務審計做個樣子而已嘛"},{"start":455.32,"end":469.117,"text":"是這樣嗎這兩個 顧委員報告我們其實修正決算7224萬餘元修正這個都要增列其他應收款這個事後都還是要追蹤腳褲的那實際動作呢 你要怎麼做"},{"start":469.998,"end":487.539,"text":"後續一樣這裡面其中有包括有涉及個人財務責任部分我們還是會追究你們怎麼追究一樣就是等判刑有一部分涉及財務責任有送了嗎那個部分移送法辦的部分判決確定我們還是會追究個人的財務責任"},{"start":488.76,"end":513.713,"text":"好 那你這個要多久這個司法判決這個部分我們比較不容易掌握因為現在以那個北分署的案子現在目前是甄決起訴所以可能在法院那邊處理所以這個部分我們就會靜待司法判決確定我們會後都會繼續追蹤好 那你看"},{"start":516.309,"end":537.884,"text":"進度喔 我想你大概每個月跟我們報告可以嗎我們盡量啦 因為這個恐怕因為涉及這個根本沒辦法 這包括我們移送給檢調部份就涉及司法行政責任部份另外一部份是監察院在調查中你已經送了沒有 還沒送這兩個都送了已經送了是不是 都送了那我再請教部長你發新聞稿說"},{"start":545.194,"end":551.386,"text":"連公務預算要把許民春演唱會的還有他拍沙龍照這些不法奴用的錢補回來對吧補回基金嗎你有講過嗎"},{"start":558.22,"end":578.432,"text":"我們說的是說如果要我的我的說法是如果要跟個人來追究決策者的責任的話我們會配合檢調那這筆錢怎麼補你在基金裡面拿出來的錢怎麼補現在按照審計部給我們的這個審核的通知是要我們修正簡列"},{"start":580.942,"end":605.185,"text":"修正減劣追回那按照修正減劣追回的話他的其實意思是他不應該用在救安基金但是應該是用在公務預算裡面所以在過去相關的判定裡面在還沒有公務預算的時候他就已經可以用掉了嘛那你現在用公務預算去補對不對你的意思是這樣嗎這個是過去如果被判定修正減劣追回的話的做法之一"},{"start":607.079,"end":624.673,"text":"他只是檢列嘛那你現在我的意思是說你是不是要準備用公務預算去把它補回來那這個是這個是做法只一旦具體的做法我們還可以跟審計部跟主計再來做主計處再來討論因為審計部列啊檢列就是認定這個動之不合規定啊審計部我這樣那個我們副審副審計長啊我這樣講有錯嗎檢列就是認定動之不合規定嘛對不對"},{"start":639.087,"end":667.594,"text":"好那你現在說那你現在要怎麼樣用怎麼樣用納稅人的錢去補回來的我還是要跟委員說明勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來辦理那審計部判定的就是修正減劣跟追回所以過去在這做法上面規定所以這樣是合法就對了這樣是合法就對了哪一個事情是合法就用公務預算補就是對的"},{"start":669.792,"end":677.25,"text":"過去在如果被說說這些相關的判定的話編列公務預算來規定是做法之一"},{"start":679.605,"end":698.841,"text":"那如果這樣子的話我們用納稅人的錢來去補這筆錢你認為合理嗎所以我剛才跟委員說明具體的做法當然我們還願意跟行政院跟審議部來做討論可是確實當時在新聞稿裡面寫說編列公共預算來歸電這是過去被判定相關的類型的時候他的做法之一"},{"start":700.277,"end":716.918,"text":"我希望你們這個部分一定要給我們國人一個好交代把它講清楚絕對不能說如果有違法的部分你們一定要依法來追究來做處理如果有違法的部分尤其如果是司法判決的話我們當然會依照司法判決來追究好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時35分）好，主席好。我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。請問你，你上次在這裡說育嬰留停領不到是口誤嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：但是產檢假、陪產檢假確實是有被刪減。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是你講完馬上又補了另外一個謠言，就包含你那天在板橋大罷免宣講的、造謠的會場，講得慷慨激昂，你能不能重複再講一次，總預算對新手爸媽會有什麼影響？"],["洪部長申翰：就是產檢假跟陪產檢假是有被砍，這不是謠言、這不是謠言，這是真的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個預算編在哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：這個編在我們勞動條件及就業平等的相關預算裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：今年是編多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：8,500萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。獎補助費有刪減還是凍結？"],["洪部長申翰：有刪減也有凍結。"],["邱委員鎮軍：哪一筆？沒有刪也沒凍結呢。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：哪一筆啊？你講。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，刪減被刪了800，凍結應該凍了1,900，大概2,000。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到這邊資料怎麼只有600咧？"],["洪部長申翰：委員你的資料不是很正確。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院會刪減的部分是吧？2,185，對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：刪減了800；凍結凍了將近2,000，所以一定會影響到產檢假、陪產檢假相關的薪資補貼，這是為什麼會影響到新手爸媽的權利的原因。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們勞動條件及就業平等司的業務費一共編了9,714萬嘛，我這邊資料是……你是講統刪的部分嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就是這一項裡面被刪了800萬，跟被凍結了2,000萬左右，但是裡面有八千五百多萬就是用在產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補貼，所以一定會影響到的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以影響多少？你這樣影響會多少？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，在下半年我們相關的這些津貼的核發上一定會影響到的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在下半年，那前半年不會？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們其實當然希望都不要影響到新手爸媽的權益，但是很遺憾的是，就是會影響到啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們有為這個事情提出來了嗎？有沒有提出你們的意見？"],["洪部長申翰：我們在之前其實就已經要提出來，這一筆預算是關乎新手爸媽的權益，可是現在就是會影響到了，所以我沒有在造謠，這是真的會發生的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你趕快提出來啊。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要在外面講嘛。你是不是可以馬上把……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們不是只有在外面講，所以我們提出覆議，可是覆議被否定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不能做追加嗎？你不能來……"],["洪部長申翰：所以那時候我們行政院在院會提出覆議，可是很遺憾，覆議被否決。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我是說你為什麼不在委員會來提？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這個是一個整體的影響，所以當時行政院是提出覆議的方式，但覆議被否決啦。我們希望透過覆議，能夠爭取這些相關的預算，能夠再有多的討論跟審議的機會，可是在覆議被否決啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這邊不能提？我現在問的，你不要再講到院會嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：這是一個整體的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不能提解凍嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以委員我們要說，第一個確實刪凍是有影響的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，我的意思是，你如果想解決問題的話，你應該在這邊提出來嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：第二個是我們也想解決問題，所以當時及時提出覆議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你如果有這個問題，你是不是現在要提出來？準備什麼時候提？你什麼時候要提？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我們當然希望跟各政黨能夠再做一些討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你如果真的是為了我們年輕人著想，你為什麼現在不趕快做這件事情？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們是為了年輕人著想，所以編列這個預算，所以不希望這個預算當時被這樣刪凍，這樣子的刪凍就是影響年輕人權益的方式。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以未來你要怎麼繼續處理這個問題？就一直喊就好？"],["洪部長申翰：我們沒有喊，所以我們當時提出覆議啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要不要做嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我們提出了覆議，但覆議被否決啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們什麼時候要提出來嘛？你不要講覆議，覆議已經否決了，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：覆議否決就是讓人遺憾的事情！"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你現在呢？現在呢？我們是不是也講過，你如果有窒礙難行可以提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以我們提出覆議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你講什麼廢話，還在覆議，現在覆議就已經結束了，還要繞回去，怎麼可能呢？你還要繞回去，還要硬拗？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這不是硬拗。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你現在怎麼處理嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我們接下來可以跟大家、跟朝野各界來做討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你可以提出來啊！叫你提出來，你什麼時候要提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：相關的案子我們會跟行政院來討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：一定要提上面，你自己不會提討論就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：當然提……"],["邱委員鎮軍：要等上面指示，你們可以講才講是嗎？等大罷免結束之後，你們再來為年輕人來著想是嗎？還是這個事情你要拿來利用，一直燒，燒到大罷免結束？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們正是為年輕人著想，所以當時才不希望……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果你真的是想要處理事情……"],["洪部長申翰：這筆預算被刪減跟凍結。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你如果真的是想要處理事情，你就應該提出來。"],["洪部長申翰：這個刪減跟凍結是事實。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在沒有說不是事實，那你現在拿出來嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：這個刪減跟凍結是事實，年輕人……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要不要提出來解？要不要提出來解嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：所以當時為什麼我們要提出……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要提出來解，你就閉嘴，我現在問你的是，你現在什麼時候要提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們在適當時機會來提相關還可以再做的作法，只是我們必須表達，確實這個刪減跟凍結就是事實。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你儘快，好不好？","我們問審計部一下。"],["李副審計長順保：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就安基金裡面7,224萬元用途不符，本來就是用途不符，為什麼給我們的報告改成關聯性不高？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，審計部發的審核通知跟勞動部歷次的聲復，其實這兩個用詞都有在用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這為什麼要臨時改？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，我們只是把文字再重新整理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是你的意思，還是部長的意思？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，我們內部在校對的時候就覺得跟……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你認為這個說法比較正確？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，等於是雙方都可以認同的說法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你113年底給財政委員會的報告，也是寫用途不符，那這一次是誰叫你改的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，原來我們內部在校對就做這樣的處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：用途不符就是用途不符，改幾個字不法挪用的事實會改變嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：不會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那現在就是欲蓋彌彰，對不對？把事實呈現給大眾有那麼難嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：這個案子我們調查跟揭露，還有移送檢調後續偵辦，還有呈報監察院的，我們都是按照我們查核發現的證據，完整呈現給相關的單位，我們沒有任何掩飾。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那就安基金濫用的部分，為什麼你用減列，不是用剔除？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，因為113年度它的決算已經編，我們現在在審決算，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們的追討手段可以用剔除，直接進入強制執行，減列繳庫是由財政部追討，如果只做減列，就是財務審計做個樣子而已，是這樣嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，這兩個跟委員報告，我們其實修正決算7,224萬餘元，這個都要增列其他應收款，事後都還是要追蹤繳庫的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那實際動作呢？你要怎麼做？"],["李副審計長順保：後續一樣，其中包括有涉及個人財務責任的部分，我們還是會追究。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們怎麼追究？"],["李副審計長順保：一樣，就是等判刑，有一部分涉及財務責任……"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經有送了嗎？有移送了嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：移送法辦的部分，判決確定，我們還是會追究個人的財務責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那你這個要多久？"],["李副審計長順保：司法判決這個部分我們比較不容易掌握，因為現在北分署的案子目前是偵結起訴，所以可能在法院那邊處理，這個部分我們會靜待司法判決確定，我們會後都會繼續追蹤。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，進度的部分你每個月跟我們報告，可以嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們儘量啦！跟委員報告，這包括我們移送給檢調的部分，就是涉及司法行政責任部分，另外一部分是監察院在調查中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你已經送了沒有？還沒送？"],["李副審計長順保：這兩個都送了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經送了是嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：都送了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。那我再請教部長，你發新聞稿說，編公務預算要把許銘春演唱會的還有他拍沙龍照這些不法挪用的錢補回來，對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：有發新聞稿。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你有講過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我的說法是如果要跟個人來追究決策者的責任的話，我們會配合檢調跟司法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那這筆錢怎麼追討？你在基金裡面拿出來的錢怎麼補？"],["洪部長申翰：現在按照審計部給我們的審核通知，是要我們修正減列追回，那按照修正減列追回的話，其實意思是它不應該用在就安基金，但是應該是用在公務預算裡面，所以在過去相關的判定裡面……"],["邱委員鎮軍：在還沒有公務預算的時候，它就已經可以用掉了，那你現在要用公務預算去補，對不對？你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：過去如果被判定修正減列追回的話，這是作法之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那只是減列嘛！現在我的意思是說，你是不是要準備用公務預算去把它補回來？"],["洪部長申翰：這個是作法之一，但具體的作法我們還可以跟審計部跟主計處再來討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為審計部列減列就是認定動支不合規定，副審計長，我這樣講有錯嗎？減列就是認定動支不合規定，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：簡單說，不同意核銷。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。那你現在要怎麼樣用納稅人的錢去補回來呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要跟委員說明，勞動部是一個行政部門，我們必須要依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來辦理，那審計部判定的就是修正減列跟追回，所以過去在這作法上面，公務預算……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這樣是合法就對了？這樣是合法就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：哪一個事情是合法？"],["邱委員鎮軍：用公務預算補是對的？"],["洪部長申翰：過去如果被做這些相關判定的話，編列公務預算來歸墊是作法之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那如果這樣子的話，我們用納稅人的錢來去補這筆錢，你認為合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我剛才跟委員說明，具體的作法當然我們還願意跟行政院、跟審計部來做討論，可是確實當時在新聞稿裡面寫說編列公務預算來歸墊，這是過去被判定相關類型的時候，它的作法之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我希望你們這個部分一定要給我們國人一個交代，把它講清楚，絕對不能說……如果有違法的部分，你們一定要依法來追究、來做處理。"],["洪部長申翰：如果有違法的部分，尤其如果是司法判決的話，我們當然會依照司法判決來追究。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcef4edaf4d888799f2eafc78fb10225fff6e4b1f34053c89de975c7bd2c0b6c0015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:39:53 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謝主席 王委員好局長好 局長今天幾乎所有委員都有特別提到也關注到因為在我們的報告裡面也有提到就是說針對共諜的部分因為現在好像是過去沒有揭露還是現在越來越多"},{"start":30.529,"end":50.498,"text":"是兩個都有也就是說一方面是委員也不斷的在指導我們有一些共諜案的相關手法樣態應該要予以揭露讓我們的國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法那以便來強化我們防範共諜的一個社會的韌性那另外一方面是中共確實在對台的滲透上越來越積極"},{"start":52.359,"end":67.311,"text":"所以現在是越來越多的狀況那我想請教一下在報告裡面有提到2020年到現在目前為止我們共諜案起訴的人數大概159人嘛那是現役跟退役的軍人都有"},{"start":68.112,"end":93.01,"text":"而且占比高達60%當然跟他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係的緊張所以他們的身份可能也比較容易發生可是這些都是被有查出來的剛剛也提到因為顧部長還有局長剛剛也提到高達87%接近九成都是我們保防教育可能做得還不錯所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的那這159人當中有多少人"},{"start":98.41,"end":124.414,"text":"判決確定定驗的那個過去五年剛剛有提到我們這邊所移送到國安團隊移送到檢查機關來進行審判偵辦的有159人被起訴那這大概佔了我們移送的人數的97%定驗的有多少定驗的是在過去五年有88個人有75個被定驗所以定驗率有85.23%"},{"start":128.855,"end":150.925,"text":"85.23你是說88個人88個人定驗可是你有159人沒有因為他那個涉及到他審判的審理的期程是很長的所以他大概這159人有多少你把詳細的數據給我們好不好沒有問題就是說有這樣的部分他大概判決確定最重判多久"},{"start":151.896,"end":166.962,"text":"最終判到20年有兩位最輕的咧最輕的可能一年的都有過去五年平均大概是四年七個月所以我們希望把相關的數據給我們就是你起訴了159位那現在已經定讞就是已經結束了你還沒有的大概有多少人把詳細的數據再給我們因為我們為什麼特別提出來是因為軍人在我們國家裡面尤其是現在其實他是非常重要的"},{"start":179.847,"end":183.15,"text":"可是我們不斷不斷不斷的提醒社會大眾我們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人說他們都很有可能是共諜其實這個會對我們整個社會的一個認知或者他的一個所有的一些都會造成觀感上面的影響"},{"start":201.405,"end":223.401,"text":"其實對於大家要不要再去當軍人 其實這個也是一個很大的打擊我們來看看為什麼要特別提到 因為你只提軍人每次好像會當逛蝶的也只有軍人沒有 跟委員說明一下 因為確實在比重上因為有現退役加起來有六成多 比例確實很高而且它所凸顯的是中共對於我們國軍的滲透"},{"start":225.382,"end":231.205,"text":"我們知道可是如果是一個好的國安團隊你的面向應該要更廣更何況更何況我們最近才看到的就是在最近發生的包括立法院前院長尤其坤辦公室的助理盛楚英這個爆出淪為共諜的部分他不但"},{"start":246.593,"end":255.579,"text":"在立法院長的辦公室當助理因為他可以看到的可以知道的可以接觸到的機敏資料其實是非常多的接下來他還在很多我們委員裡面尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委他們也幾乎都是在國防外交委員會擔任委員的這樣子的助理"},{"start":269.227,"end":287.959,"text":"所以包括羅美玲委員 郭育琴委員許智傑委員 羅志正委員等等剛剛也有委員提到 大也希望自己的助理是經過查核的可是這個困難點可能還是存在我們剛剛為什麼要特別提到這樣子你今天不是只有軍人你現在連立法院"},{"start":288.499,"end":293.822,"text":"立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員因為現在在罷免的過程當中通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人就是共匪就是共諜我們希望如果在社會的氛圍上面建立這樣子的意識形態其實對整個國家其實是不利的這個部分我們請國安團隊應該要更堅持"},{"start":313.094,"end":336.395,"text":"另外我還要提到就是說其實現在更恐怖的是在總統府裡面也發現了剛剛雖然他現在是已經在調查的階段所以不方便透露可是既然是在調查階段表示這是存在的事實那裡面他吸收的成績非常高他包括民進黨民主學院的這個副主任他也陪"},{"start":337.436,"end":342.981,"text":"賴副總統其實到訪過巴拉圭這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇那還有包括總統他還擔任過總統府辦公室的姿意還有這個吳尚宇還有這個民進黨的這個"},{"start":354.272,"end":367.918,"text":"鯉魚點特助黃曲榮這些其實他們目前都被羈押當中我們現在特別要提到的是剛剛你們說在查核的部分或者他的範圍其實是有所不足的如果是這樣說"},{"start":369.755,"end":390.506,"text":"我想要請教局長因為在軍人的部分是由軍人的保防去負責他們的安全查核可是總統府是由我們國安單位那我們爆發出這樣的狀況局長你怎麼看那個總統府他還是一個獨立的行政機關那查核的部分不是由我這邊來那是由誰"},{"start":393.228,"end":406.575,"text":"這應該總統府他自己有他一套管理的機制所以他現在不足的部分是什麼因為顯然總統府發生這樣的事而且已經長達六年的時間那他不足的部分是什麼因為你們說要修法那如果要在修法的過程當中面對這樣的問題因為他們比這些軍人他們知道的會更多因為他們來"},{"start":413.078,"end":421.125,"text":"不是只有軍方的機敏資料而已他甚至全方位的包括我們的農業包括我們的聯繫症包括我們所有一切的一個佈置包括我們的基礎設施包括我們的政策等等其實他已經涵蓋是全面性的所以他可以看到的知道的會更多我們在這部分要怎麼加強因為你去審核查核助理一點意義都沒有他剛進來被你查核的時候他可能沒有問題"},{"start":439.52,"end":443.265,"text":"可是它是被吸收的為什麼會被吸收的人越來越多這個才是我們最大的隱憂就像駭客一樣嘛大家都知道我們突破了多少我們查到多少駭客的資料可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的啊"},{"start":454.901,"end":462.565,"text":"他已經拿到多少資料或者他在什麼地方你根本不曉得那如果你們要在修法部分要去強化請告訴我們像類似這樣子的一個對象我們應該要怎麼去查核要怎麼修法方向應該怎麼做"},{"start":470.689,"end":495.788,"text":"對 這大概有幾個部分一個部分是屬於人的核密的部分那這部分剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密嘛 密等那第二個是人核密之後它的揭密的分類的程度這是第二個部分第三個部分就是文書文件它的核密也很重要那就我們國安單位來講在這一部分我們大概都有一套人的核密以及那個揭密的管制以及文件的機密整齊的劃分"},{"start":496.608,"end":503.192,"text":"所以這個機制可能是有必要在各單位來更加強來建立起來因為你們已經有說過那表示現在總統府做得不好嘛因為這麼重要的可能各單位都可以來看這一方面有沒有更加強的地方所以當你們要修法的時候請注意不是無限的擴大然後不是把什麼里長啦宮廟啦什麼宗教啦或什麼全部統統要納入"},{"start":519.181,"end":531.705,"text":"可是獨獨漏了很重要的全方面可能可以掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員而且也許你們根本不敢查可是發生最嚴重的卻是他們這個部分我們還是如果你有我們同意如果在國安上面有漏洞的時候你怎麼樣去強化或者去修正我們都贊成可是不能變成是一個"},{"start":547.049,"end":574.337,"text":"在政治上面變成迫害的工具好不好我們沒有不敢查我跟委員說明一下我們是全面的清查那也沒有分黨派那才會有這些案子的出現好 局長你剛剛提到說這些案子的出現我想請教一下就我剛剛提到的總統府啊或者民進黨的這些前副主任他們是被檢舉還是我們主動發言這是個案我不能在這邊討論你只說他是被檢舉或發生或是被沒有這都還是這幾個案情這位是是"},{"start":576.138,"end":599.889,"text":"那你像軍中的你們都可以說這個全部都是被檢舉的沒有沒有軍中的那是一個總數這個總數我們可以用總數來說明相關的趨勢但剛剛委員所提到的是個案的案情案況的內容這部分可能請容許委員我們有辦法公開討論局長為什麼這個很重要他如果說出被檢舉或者你們主動發現他對案情有什麼影響"},{"start":601.534,"end":626.578,"text":"現在主要是我們有什麼影響現在主要是他涉及到個案我們就是不適合討論我們沒有要討論啊我們是說行使訴訟法的規定嘛行使訴訟法的規定因為因為他是被檢舉的跟跟這是案情的一部分這是發現的這是案情一部分這是差很多因為最重要的是像通常我們很多政府單位如果接到很多民眾的陳情料拆違件啊或什麼其實很多也都是他們通常都說是檢舉的我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為說這個案情有"},{"start":630.299,"end":635.723,"text":"這是個案因為你現在發現這個是一個案子所以你把它當成個案可是未來如果它在很多周邊都發生的時候它就已經不是個案了我們希望國安局還是在這個部分其實要提出來如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的"},{"start":650.774,"end":669.063,"text":"他的差別在哪裡是我們連在總統府有這樣的人的存在而且已經長達六年我們都沒有發現這是非常恐怖的事情你如果是要靠檢舉我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情因為你根本沒有辦法可以注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面這個部分我們要特別提醒謝謝委員的提醒謝謝"},{"start":674.165,"end":689.485,"text":"局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點因為剛剛我有看到那個在質詢的時候你沒有立場去要求我們的委員說他有各自的問題因為呢如果是公開的資訊我相信局長你沒有 更為說明一下"},{"start":691.721,"end":696.445,"text":"你的本職本能他指稱的人是錯的他指稱的人是錯的錯的你應該跟他說是錯的可是不是告訴他說你這個有個資的問題因為我們一定來我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊或者有人提供資訊如果在這個部分應該局長的立場跟角色應該是你可以告訴他說那個是錯的而不是你去"},{"start":717.762,"end":723.385,"text":"指導委員說你這個有牽涉到各自的問題所以這個部分我們還是請局長在這個部分因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要尤其像這一次關稅的問題我們看看新加坡的總理"},{"start":735.652,"end":738.515,"text":"他告訴全國的民眾雖然新加坡只被剋了10%可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態我們可能會面臨戰爭戰爭會對我們有造成什麼樣的影響他是讓大家所有全民共同去面對而且"},{"start":756.132,"end":784.221,"text":"是很實際的狀況他才被扣10%而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家他也沒有一些戰爭的風險可是他已經告訴全國人民我們在世界的局勢當中我們可能要面臨這樣的局勢那如果以台灣的狀況其實我們更險峻不管是經濟不管是地緣政治我們的風險都是最高所以我們希望我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對我們"},{"start":785.761,"end":802.399,"text":"現在發生了困境 我們大家一致對外 好不好有請國安黨委 我們從你的業務報告裡面我們希望看到的是 希望我們的格局更高更遠 更廣 而且更國際化國安沒有分黨派 沒有分顏色 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":496,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：局長好。今天幾乎所有委員都特別提到也關注到，你們的報告裡面也有提到，就是針對共諜的部分，是過去沒有揭露，還是現在越來越多？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩個都有，也就是一方面是委員不斷地在指導我們，一些共諜案的相關手法、樣態應該要予以揭露，讓國人可以更知道相關滲透的手法，以便強化我們防範共諜的社會韌性。另外一方面是中共確實在對臺的滲透上越來越積極，一方面有……"],["馬委員文君：所以現在是越來越多的狀況？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：我想請教一下，報告裡面有提到從2020年到目前為止，共諜案起訴的人數大概159人，現役跟退役的軍人都有，而且占比高達60%，因為他們的敏感性還有兩岸關係緊張，他們的身分可能比較容易發生，可是這些都是有被查出來的。局長剛剛也提到高達87%、接近九成可能是我們的保防教育做得還不錯，所以都是由軍中自己檢舉才發現的。這159人當中，有多少人判決確定定讞？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛有提到過去5年國安團隊移送到檢察機關進行審判、偵辦的有159人被起訴，這大概占了移送人數的97%，所以起訴率……"],["馬委員文君：定讞的有多少？"],["蔡局長明彥：過去5年有88個人被定讞，所以定讞率有85.23%。"],["馬委員文君：你是說88個人？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：88個人定讞，可是總共有159人。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為審理的期程很長。"],["馬委員文君：這159人有多少被定讞？你把詳細的數據給我們，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：就是有這樣的部分，判決確定最重判多久？"],["蔡局長明彥：最重判到20年，有兩位。"],["馬委員文君：最輕的呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：最輕可能1年的都有，過去5年平均大概是4年7個月。"],["馬委員文君：我們希望把相關數據給我們，就是起訴了159位，現在已經定讞、已經結束的以及還沒有的大概有多少人，把詳細的數據再給我們。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：我們為什麼特別提出來？因為軍人在我們國家裡面，尤其現在是非常重要的，可是你們不斷提醒社會大眾，而你們的業務報告裡面也只提軍人，說他們都很有可能是共諜，其實這個對整個社會的認知或者觀感都會造成影響。對於大家要不要再當軍人，這也是一個很大的打擊。為什麼要特別提到？因為你只提軍人，每次好像會當共諜的也只有軍人。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有！因為現、退役加起來有六成多，比例確實很高，而且所凸顯的是中共對於國軍的滲透。"],["馬委員文君：我們知道，如果是一個好的國安團隊，面向應該要更廣。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["馬委員文君：更何況我們最近才看到，就是最近發生的立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛礎纓爆出淪為共諜案，他不但在立法院長辦公室當助理，因為可以看到的、可以知道的、可以接觸到的機敏資料非常多，接下來他還擔任很多委員的助理，尤其是民進黨團內的很多立委，他們幾乎都是在外交及國防委員會，包括羅美玲委員、郭昱晴委員、許智傑委員、羅致政委員等等。剛剛有委員提到，大家也希望自己的助理是經過查核的，可是這個困難點可能還是存在。為什麼要特別提到？今天不是只有軍人，現在連立法院也不是只有國民黨的委員，因為現在在罷免的過程當中，通常都是指國民黨的委員就是中共同路人、共匪、共諜。如果在社會的氛圍上建立這樣的意識型態，對整個國家是不利的，這個部分請國安團隊應該要更堅持的把關。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["馬委員文君：另外，我還要提，現在更恐怖的是，在總統府裡面也發現了，雖然現在已經在調查的階段，所以不方便透露。既然是在調查階段，表示這是存在的事實，裡面吸收的層級非常高，包括民進黨民主學院的副主任；擔任過總統府辦公室的諮議吳尚雨，陪賴副總統到訪過巴拉圭，這是非常核心的人員才有辦法有的禮遇；還有民進黨議員李余典的特助黃曲榮，他們目前都被羈押當中。剛剛你們說查核的部分或者範圍有所不足，如果是這樣，我想請教局長，因為軍人是由軍人的保防單位負責他們的安全查核，可是總統府是由國安單位，你們爆發出這樣的狀況，局長怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：總統府是一個獨立的行政機關，查核的部分不是由我們來進行。"],["馬委員文君：那是由誰？"],["蔡局長明彥：總統府自己有一套管理的機制。"],["馬委員文君：所以它現在不足的部分是什麼？顯然總統府發生這樣的事已經長達6年的時間，不足的部分是什麼？因為你們說要修法，在修法的過程當中必須要面對這樣的問題。他們會比這些軍人知道的更多，因為不是只有接觸軍方的機敏資料而已，甚至全方位的，包括農業、內政、一切的布置、基礎設施及政策等，已經涵蓋全面，所以他可以看到的、知道的會更多，我們在這一部分要怎麼加強？因為審核、查核助理一點意義都沒有，他剛進來被你查核的時候可能沒有問題，可是後來卻被吸收。為什麼被吸收的人會越來越多？這個才是我們最大的隱憂。就像駭客一樣，大家都知道，我們突破了多少、查到多少駭客的資料，可是比較恐怖的是我們查不到的，他已經拿到多少資料或者在什麼地方，你根本不曉得！如果你們要修法去強化，請告訴我們類似這樣的對象，我們應該要怎麼去查核、要怎麼修法、方向應該怎麼做？"],["蔡局長明彥：這大概有幾個部分，一個部分是屬於人的核密，剛剛陳冠廷委員也在關切人的核密、密等。第二個是人核密之後，接密分類的程度，這是第二個部分。第三個部分就是文書、文件的核密也很重要。就國安單位來講，在這部分大概都有一套人的核密、接密的管制以及文件機密等級的劃分。"],["馬委員文君：對，我知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：這個機制可能各單位有必要更加強建立起來。"],["馬委員文君：我知道。你們已經有說過，表示現在總統府做得不好，因為這麼重要的、這麼高層的……"],["蔡局長明彥：可能各單位都可以來看這方面有沒有可以加強的地方。"],["馬委員文君：所以當你們要修法的時候，請注意，不是無限的擴大，然後不是把里長、宮廟、宗教或什麼全部通通要納入，可是獨獨漏了很重要、可能可以全方面掌握很多機敏資料的這些單位跟人員，也許你們根本不敢查，可是發生最嚴重的情況卻是他們。這個部分我們同意，如果在國安上有漏洞的時候，你怎麼樣去強化或者修正，我們都贊成，可是不能變成是一個在政治上迫害的工具，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有不敢查，我們是全面清查，也沒有分黨派，才會有這些案子出現。謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：你剛剛提到這些案子的出現，我想請教一下，就我剛剛提到的總統府或者民進黨的這些前副主任，他們是被檢舉，還是你們主動發現？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是個案，我不能在這邊討論個案。"],["馬委員文君：你只要說是被檢舉或被……"],["蔡局長明彥：這都還是涉及到案情，不行！"],["馬委員文君：像軍中的，你們都可以說全部都是被檢舉的。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有！軍中的是一個總數，我們可以用總數來說明相關趨勢，但剛剛委員所提到的是個案案情、案況的內容，這部分請委員容許我沒有辦法公開討論。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼這個很重要？如果說出是被檢舉或者你們主動發現，對案情有什麼影響？告訴我們有什麼影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：現在主要是他涉及到個案，我們就不適合討論。"],["馬委員文君：我們沒有要討論啦，我們是說……"],["蔡局長明彥：這是刑事訴訟法的規定，我們不能違法，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：因為他是被檢舉的，這跟只是發現的差很多。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是案情的一部分。"],["馬委員文君：因為最重要的是，很多政府單位接到民眾陳情要拆違建或什麼，其實他們通常都說是檢舉的，我不知道為什麼你們在這個部分認為這跟案情是有涉及的。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是個案！"],["馬委員文君：因為現在發現這是一個案子，所以你把它當成個案，可是未來如果它在周邊都發生的時候，它就已經不是個案了，我們希望國安局還是在這個部分要提出來，如果這不是我們主動發現而是被檢舉的，它的差別在哪裡？我們連總統府有這樣的人存在，而且已經長達6年我們都沒有發現，這是非常恐怖的事情，你如果要靠檢舉，我覺得這是非常恐怖的事情！因為你根本沒有辦法注意到匪諜就在我們的總統府裡面，這一個部分我們要特別……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們不適合討論個案，謝謝委員的提醒，但不適合討論個案，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：另外，局長我在這裡可能也要提醒你一點，因為剛剛我有看到在質詢的時候，你沒有立場去要求我們的委員，說他有個資的問題，如果是公開的資訊，我相信局長你的本職本能……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，跟委員說明一下……"],["馬委員文君：你的本職本能……"],["蔡局長明彥：不是、不是，他指稱的人是錯的！"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，錯的你應該跟他說是錯的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我就是請他要注意個資。"],["馬委員文君：但不是告訴他，你這個有個資的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是個資。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們一定是搜尋公開的資訊，或者有人提供的資訊，在這個部分局長的立場跟角色應該是要……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我在做善意的提醒。"],["馬委員文君：你可以告訴他那個是錯的……"],["蔡局長明彥：有！"],["馬委員文君：而不是你去指導委員，說你這個有牽涉到個資的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有指導，我是在提醒，我怕會違法，我怕為了質詢而違法，這對委員不好。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還是請局長在這個部分，因為國安對我們全國民眾都非常重要……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然！"],["馬委員文君：尤其像這一次關稅的問題，我們看看新加坡的總理，他告訴全國的民眾，雖然新加坡只被課了10%，可是他跟全國的新加坡人民提到什麼？我們可能現在處於不穩定的狀態、我們可能會面臨戰爭、戰爭會對我們造成什麼樣影響，他是讓所有全民共同去面對，而且是很實際的狀況，他才被扣10%，而且新加坡算是一個比較穩定的國家，他也沒有一些戰爭的風險，可是他已經告訴全國人民，我們在世界的局勢當中可能要面臨這樣的局勢。如果以臺灣的狀況，其實我們更險竣，不管是經濟、不管是地緣政治，我們的風險都是最高，所以我們要怎麼讓大家都可以一致面對現在發生的困境、大家一致對外，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，面對外在威脅，國家要團結沒有錯，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：尤其國安單位，我們從你的業務報告裡面希望看到你們的格局更高、更遠、更廣而且更國際化，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，國安沒有分黨派、沒有分顏色，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員上臺質詢。","接下來由王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159953","video_url":"https://i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- 10:52:42","影片長度":"00:08:58","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T10:43:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T10:52:42+08:00","duration":538,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.814718750000001,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.817843750000002,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.239718750000002,"end":53.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.461593750000006,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.15346875,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.37284375,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.83971875,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.45096875,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.97784375,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.01534375,"end":102.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.89284375000001,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.83346875000001,"end":109.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.20784375000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.36784375,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.92721875000001,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.42034375000001,"end":128.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.14596875,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.73596875,"end":135.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.34346875,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.18284375000002,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.08534375000002,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.40471875,"end":182.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.35284375,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.82096875000002,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.59284375000001,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":192.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.68034375000002,"end":193.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.43534375000002,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.94159375,"end":205.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.83846875,"end":244.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.17846875,"end":248.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.66721875000002,"end":273.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.18659375000004,"end":273.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.49034375,"end":340.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.73721875,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.79159375,"end":348.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.17471875,"end":401.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.74221875,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.44971875000005,"end":371.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.45159375000003,"end":386.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.36909375000005,"end":520.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.7934687500001,"end":520.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.86096875,"end":520.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.9622187500001,"end":520.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.6203437500001,"end":525.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.09659375,"end":535.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.1415937500001,"end":534.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.43221875,"end":538.9678437499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.124,"end":10.536,"text":"謝謝主席 我請體育署鄭世忠署長好 我也請鄭署長"},{"start":14.485,"end":42.59,"text":"好 署長好最近一定很多人跟你關心紐西蘭女足來到台灣本來要跟我們台灣女足來進行友誼賽結果因為場地的問題比賽被迫取消那我想這除了球迷很失望我們國家的女足隊員也一定也相當失望因為這次一個紐西蘭人家是前段班嘛世界排名的這對我們來講本來是一個很好的交流的機會但是呢紐西蘭的女足因為考量到球員安全放棄比賽"},{"start":43.67,"end":58.085,"text":"這其實是正確的態度但對我們的球員來講這其實是失去了一個很好的機會所以我現在想要請問署長的是道遠發生什麼事怎麼辦包委員之前我有剛剛有回覆幾個委員的這個提問"},{"start":58.866,"end":85.448,"text":"那這一次主要的原因在足協的技術部門他們在3月12開始其實有一些教練講習啦男足的一個練習啦等等其實他們那個時候其實可以把場地移到別的地方去讓這個場地專心來做一個加強的草皮養護那他們去年在輔導他們在台北停電場的時候其實那時候就有要求他們在一個月前就開始做草皮養護那這個SOP他們今年沒有落實所以造成了在比賽前"},{"start":86.329,"end":109.435,"text":"草皮的養護過度磨損無法使用所以SOP是場地的問題還是竹鞋的問題就是竹鞋它本身沒有來做草皮的加強養護所以竹鞋在行政管理上面出現問題嗎那我們的體育署怎麼辦報委員這部分我們其實一再的要求他們那我們這次的賽事我們跟同仁講這次的賽事的補助我們就撤銷了"},{"start":111.164,"end":131.476,"text":"撤銷嘛足協有疏失體育署要加強督導署長你有沒有覺得這個對話很熟悉是也是去年三月的時候一樣是我跟你一樣站在同樣的位置所以當時發生什麼問題不是高雄台北市台北對去年就發生了嘛台北田技場男足的"},{"start":132.799,"end":144.563,"text":"所以後來六月賽事我就要求還要台北市體育局跳出來打臉足閒說人家一年前就有場地預控會議你當時沒來參加等到比賽靠近了又再臨時抱佛腳"},{"start":146.642,"end":158.427,"text":"還去發聲明說協調到最後一刻真的沒辦法了當時也是高雄的男子球場跳出來解救啊然後最後是怎麼收場的呢最後是改成用兩張發票換進場然後因為男子這個球場本來就不是國際標準場燈光不符所以調到下午比賽時間大家都在上班所以當然球迷的權益又再次被忽略了所以去年的時候署長也直接講"},{"start":176.215,"end":203.526,"text":"足協有疏失體育署要加強督導就一年之後我覺得非常遺憾我們到今天還在遇到同樣的問題包委員我在六月的時候就已經有輔導他們他們應該要學會了可是我不可能每一場賽事都一直盯著他們署長 棒子與蘿蔔啊是這是你們主管機關你們的政策工具是所以這一次補助撤銷但不能只有個案因為顯然嘛一而再再而三發生問題尤其是場地"},{"start":205.905,"end":209.65,"text":"去年就發生今年又發生我們一定要盡到我們主管機關的責任因為這個影響的是我們球員的權益還有球迷的權益好不好好這個接下來呢場地的問題我想除了這個個案以外"},{"start":221.525,"end":227.688,"text":"我們體育署之前也告訴我們說接下來要在各個縣市我們希望可以再增加場地總的來講我們總數就是不足嘛是那因為財務法的影響接下來我們可能也會需要更多地方政府的幫忙所以希望體育署或未來的運動部我們要積極的跟地方政府主動來討論主動來協調只要有適合的場地我們全力來支持包圍員高雄中正體育場目前有就在談希望它成為第三座A級的場地"},{"start":248.72,"end":260.39,"text":"好那場地我們一定要持續來增加那今天是運彩條例的修法的詢答那其實就是因為今年初我們修訂了運產條例主要在處理是加重處罰非運彩的投注標的賽事的違法行為就是防堵那我們現在回頭來要來修改運彩條例就是要去處理作為運彩投標注的"},{"start":273.24,"end":275.561,"text":"投注標的這個賽事我們希望這兩個法的法則它的樣態可以相當所以這個我自己也有提案但除了加重處罰以外我今天要特別跟署長討論的是我想對於球員的待遇球員的處境工作就業的環境我們要加強的來輔導權力的支持我認為這才是源頭因為當初會發生主投威脅利誘"},{"start":300.857,"end":328.362,"text":"球員打假球其實一部分是在於我們像職棒元年的時候當時我們的球員月薪最高只有八萬所以其實當時的待遇是不高的所以容易被這樣子威脅利誘那我們好不容易走到了今天今年我們終止二十五個球員月薪有超過五十萬其中有二十五個球員都超過五十萬那有三名球員月薪是已經突破百萬所以我想我們在成長當中"},{"start":329.522,"end":342.769,"text":"但是未來我們成立運動部之後我們要更加強來支持球員他們的環境所以我想第一個我有三個具體的建議第一個我們會成立運動產業發展中心嘛協助產業發展以外"},{"start":343.874,"end":372.232,"text":"改善選手的就業環境我覺得這個一定要當成第一優先要務這個應該要優於產值我希望我們運動部要把它放在這是我們的政策目標當中第二個去年署長你有親自搭建平台嘛就是跟直籃工會還有籃協來進行溝通我覺得跟工會的這個平台我們要去持續而且擴大項目去運作第三個呢是今年我們台灣的排球企業聯賽也要走向職業化但是雖然叫"},{"start":373.032,"end":397.826,"text":"企業排球聯賽但裡面很多他們是學生球員嘛那我想我們有很多經驗可以傳承像從這個直籃工會其實就從直棒工會學習到了很多當時創立的制度跟相關的機制所以我希望未來我們運動部成立之後也要來加強的輔導希望讓我們可以把這個制度傳承下去可以縮短這個花時間去摸索的時間來協助保障選手的權益好不好好"},{"start":401.488,"end":418.437,"text":"好那最後要跟署長討論的是我知道成立運動部在籌備當中其中我很關切的是台灣品牌賽事體育署最近有舉辦相關的論壇那打造品牌賽事呢在行政院的運動部諮詢小組第一階段總結也有結論結論就三點第一個我們要創辦以台灣或城市為名打造台灣品牌的"},{"start":427.602,"end":435.147,"text":"國際運動賽事第二我們要支持地方政府來籌辦國際賽事我們希望要吸引國外的選手來台灣交流那這也是可以帶動我們本地的運動產業第三我們要去發展有台灣特色的運動項目以及新興運動項目所以今天我要特別跟署長建議的是我認為未來在思考台灣品牌賽事的時候新興運動項目是一個非常值得我們去輔導扶植的"},{"start":456.743,"end":473.831,"text":"項目例如說街舞因為這我長期有在關注我發現到他們過去就跟國際其他國家的這個交流已經非常之深了例如說像日本有一個近30年歷史的Dance Delight街舞比賽它是本來就是全國際性的"},{"start":474.952,"end":498.051,"text":"所以每一年我們台灣都會有團體協助來選出台灣的選手到日本去參賽那去年我也邀請署長來參加一個college high就台灣自己主辦的大學街舞比賽我們這些年來也已經每一年都邀請舞組來自其他國家的選手來到台灣比賽而他們在來台灣之前都是有本地比如說法國當地有法國的主辦單位"},{"start":501.634,"end":518.787,"text":"選出法國的大學街舞選手來到台灣參賽我覺得過去已經很好的經驗所以我希望未來我們運動部在國際品牌賽事的這個項目可以多多的來支持民間已經在努力而且已經有成果的這些新興項目的國際交流比賽好不好"},{"start":522.064,"end":534.553,"text":"謝謝鮑威委員我完全認同不用等運動部我們現在就可以開始做了太好了那我覺得這除了是帶動運動產業之外也是非常好的運動外交所以我希望我們要加速加強來努力是好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":497,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時43分）謝謝主席，我請體育署鄭世忠署長。"],["主席：有請鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員早。"],["吳委員沛憶：署長好。最近一定很多人跟你關心，紐西蘭女足來到臺灣，本來要跟我們臺灣的女足進行友誼賽，結果因為場地的問題，比賽被迫取消。我想除了球迷很失望，我們國家的女足隊員一定也相當失望，因為紐西蘭是前段班、世界排名的，這對我們來講本來是一個很好的交流機會，但是紐西蘭女足因為考量到球員安全而放棄比賽，這其實是正確的態度，但對我們的球員來講，這其實是失去了一個很好的機會。所以我現在想要請問署長，到底發生什麼事、怎麼辦？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我剛剛有回復幾個委員的提問，這次主要的原因在於，足協的技術部門在3月12日開始有一些教練講習、男足的練習等等，其實他們那個時候可以把場地移到別的地方去，讓這個場地專心加強做草皮養護。去年輔導他們在臺北田徑場的時候，其實那時候就有要求他們在一個月前就開始做草皮養護，這個SOP他們今年沒有落實，所以造成了在比賽前草皮的養護……過度磨損無法使用。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以SOP是場地的問題還是足協的問題？"],["鄭署長世忠：就是足協他本身沒有做草皮的加強養護，這部分不是場地方的問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以足協在行政管理上面出現問題？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，他的技術部門跟競賽部門沒有橫向聯繫。"],["吳委員沛憶：那我們體育署怎麼辦？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們其實一再地要求他們，我們也跟同仁講，這次賽事的補助我們就撤銷了。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，撤銷。足協有疏失，體育署要加強督導，署長有沒有覺得這個對話很熟悉？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：也是去年3月的時候，一樣是我跟你，一樣站在同樣的位置……"],["鄭署長世忠：所以6月的時候有去解決。"],["吳委員沛憶：當時發生什麼問題？不是高雄，臺北市。"],["鄭署長世忠：臺北，對。"],["吳委員沛憶：去年就發生了嘛！臺北田徑場，男足的比賽……"],["鄭署長世忠：所以後來6月的賽事我就有要求……"],["吳委員沛憶：還要臺北市體育局跳出來打臉足協，說人家1年前就有場地預控會議，你當時沒來參加，等到比賽靠近了又再臨時抱佛腳，還去發聲明說，協調到最後一刻真的沒辦法了。當時也是高雄的楠梓球場跳出來解救。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後是怎麼收場的？最後是改成用2張發票換進場。因為楠梓球場本來就不是國際標準場，燈光不符，所以比賽時間調到下午，大家都在上班，當然球迷的權益又再次被忽略了。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以去年的時候署長也直接講足協有疏失，體育署要加強督導。結果一年之後，我覺得非常遺憾，我們到今天還再遇到同樣的問題。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我在6月的時候就已經有輔導他們，他們應該要學會了，可是我不可能每一場賽事都一直盯著他們。"],["吳委員沛憶：署長，棒子與蘿蔔。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這是你們主管機關的政策工具，所以這次補助撤銷，但不能只有個案，因為顯然一而再、再而三發生問題，尤其是場地，去年就發生，今年又發生。我們一定要盡到主管機關的責任，因為這個影響的是球員權益還有球迷權益，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：場地的問題我想除了這個個案以外，體育署之前也告訴我們，接下在各個縣市希望可以再增加場地，總的來講，我們的總數就是不足。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為財劃法的影響，接下來我們可能也會需要更多地方政府的幫忙，所以希望體育署或未來的運動部，要積極地跟地方政府主動討論、主動協調，只要有適合的場地，我們全力支持，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，高雄中正體育場目前就在談，希望它成為第三座A級場地。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，場地我們一定要持續增加。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：今天是運彩條例修法的詢答，因為今年初我們修訂了運產條例，主要在處理的是加重處罰非運彩的投注標的、賽事違法行為，就是防賭。我們現在回頭來修改運彩條例，就是要處理運彩投注標的賽事部分，我們希望這兩個的罰則，它的樣態可以相當。"],["鄭署長世忠：一致。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個我自己也有提案。但除了加重處罰以外，我今天要特別跟署長討論的是，我想對於球員的待遇、球員的處境、工作、就業環境，我們要加強輔導，全力支持，我認為這才是源頭。因為當初會發生組頭威脅利誘球員打假球，其實一部分是在於，像職棒元年的時候，當時我們的球員月薪最高只有8萬，其實當時的待遇是不高的，所以容易被這樣子威脅利誘。我們好不容易走到了今天，今年中職25個球員的月薪，其中有25個球員都超過50萬，有3名球員月薪是已經突破百萬，所以在成長當中，但是未來成立運動部之後，我們要更加強支持球員的環境。","我有三個具體的建議，第一個，我們會成立運動產業發展中心嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：協助產業發展以外，改善選手的就業環境，我覺得這個一定要當成第一優先要務，這個應該要優於產值，我希望運動部要把它放在我們的政策目標當中。","第二個，去年署長有親自搭建平臺，就是跟職籃工會還有籃協進行溝通，我覺得跟工會的這個平臺我們要持續，而且擴大項目去運作。","第三個，今年我們臺灣的企業排球聯賽也要走向職業化。"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：雖然叫企業排球聯賽，但裡面很多是學生球員，我想我們有很多經驗可以傳承，像職籃工會，其實就從職棒工會學習到了很多當時創立的制度跟相關的機制。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我希望未來運動部成立之後，也要加強輔導，希望讓我們可以把這個制度傳承下去，可以縮短去摸索所花費的時間，協助保障選手的權益，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，最後要跟署長討論的是，我知道要成立運動部在籌備當中，其中我很關切的是臺灣品牌賽事，體育署最近有舉辦相關論壇。打造品牌賽事，在行政院的運動部諮詢小組第一階段總結，也有結論。結論就是三點：第一個，我們要創辦以臺灣或城市為名，打造臺灣品牌的國際運動賽事；第二，我們要支持地方政府籌辦國際賽事，希望吸引國外選手來臺灣交流，這也可以帶動我們本地的運動產業；第三，我們要發展有臺灣特色的運動項目，以及新興運動項目。","所以今天我要特別跟署長建議的是，我認為未來在思考臺灣品牌賽事的時候，新興運動項目是一個非常值得我們輔導扶植的項目。例如街舞，因為這個我長期在關注，發現到他們過去跟國際其他國家的交流已經非常之深。例如日本有一個近三十年歷史的Dance Deligh街舞比賽，它本來就是國際性的，所以每一年我們臺灣都會有團體協助選出臺灣的選手到日本參賽。去年我也邀請署長參加College High，就是臺灣自己主辦的大學街舞比賽。我們這些年來每一年都邀請5組來自其他國家的選手到臺灣比賽，而他們在來臺灣之前都是由本地，比如法國當地，由法國主辦單位選出法國的大學街舞選手來到臺灣參賽。我覺得過去已經有很好的經驗，所以我希望未來我們運動部在國際品牌賽事的項目，可以多多支持民間已經在努力而且已經有成果的這些新興項目的國際交流比賽，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：好，謝謝。報告委員，我完全認同，不用等運動部，我們現在就可以開始做了。"],["吳委員沛憶：太好了，我覺得這除了是帶動運動產業之外，也是非常好的運動外交，所以我希望我們要加速、加強努力。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員。署長請回。","我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時52分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},{"id":"159952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcecfbfcc74362565afa0ce932bdb5123486e4b1f34053c89de0b1eef77ac16b5045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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郭委員 有請部長還有主委郭部長 劉主委兩位辛苦了 這個今天的主題我們召委這個有先見之明這個在4月2號以前就規劃了"},{"start":39.957,"end":63.943,"text":"這個議題真的是有先見之明國際經貿情勢的變化正好這個3號就美國川普總統就發布了美國對台關稅這個媒體的報導這個美國保守派智庫研究員他計算之後他認為這個"},{"start":66.432,"end":81.56,"text":"這個整個關稅的稅率的這樣的一個比原來一起的高了四倍如果從台灣來看媒體是這樣報導AEI的官網公布了重新計算對等關稅稅率他認為台灣應該適用10%的這個關稅的稅率"},{"start":94.594,"end":123.575,"text":"這跟我們財政部這是媒體的報導根據台灣財政部的數據台灣2023年平均名目關稅率關稅稅率約6.5%故有分析意固美國對台最多實施10%的關稅我這麼之所以要特別提出來這個這個因為要去談判要去談判"},{"start":125.359,"end":151.845,"text":"所以也要把這些數據資料作為談判的資料之一當然你們不能說部長一直說不能講出來談判的籌碼但是這樣的一個資料要把它收集起來然後實際上的數據應該是怎麼樣所以我一直認為總統啊"},{"start":155.359,"end":177.549,"text":"在4月4號講了這個從台美雙方零關稅開始談起我就認為非常的不妥也有很多的專業人士也認為一開始談這個就不妥所以我還是建議"},{"start":178.84,"end":192.384,"text":"建議去談判的代表一定要仔細資料是你們要提供各部會要提供這些資料應該是百分之十"},{"start":197.011,"end":224.908,"text":"而不是32%這樣的一個數據怎麼樣去提供這是我的建議這個我是外行我是外行但是我從參考這些資料來看的話好當然台積電我認為也是一個一個談判的談判的籌碼之一我先請教這個部長台積電"},{"start":226.85,"end":254.817,"text":"這個一千億加上原來的就等於一千六百多億就以現在的這個一千億來講要經過我們國家的法定的程序這個程序完成了嗎報告委員現在還沒有好就是因為還沒有完成所以談判代表一定要提我們的程序還沒有完成"},{"start":256.877,"end":282.889,"text":"我們國內的無論是立法委員或是業界都認為都必須要列為這個看怎麼說了這個談判代表要把它說出來這個部分是一個很重要的所以整個都認為說已經一千億一千六百多億了結果還是32%"},{"start":286.116,"end":298.239,"text":"對 大家都沒辦法接受啊我們一定去試好啊所以這個部分我只是建議啦當然你們比較專業啦你們比較專業所以這個部分國發會經濟部包括其他的"},{"start":305.629,"end":332.16,"text":"部會共同的在審慎的研議這個部分是不是可以成為談判的籌碼之一這個是粗淺的建議我們會將委員的意見然後呈上給他們做參考對尤其是川普總統這是最近講的4月3號的媒體報導的一直在"},{"start":335.56,"end":360.712,"text":"一再的不是第一次講啊事業商又再講啊台灣抖走了美國的晶片事實上不是這樣嘛事實上是當時的對不對以前的經濟部當時的行政院對不對行政院長蔣經國那個年代把他請過來了"},{"start":362.732,"end":380.82,"text":"怎麼會是奪走呢 我們是跟他更精進這個也要談啊 也要說啊我們沒有奪啊 不是我們這個也要說出來啊因為在他的認知上就是認為是這樣他公開說出來的比如說這個很深的那個認為這個也要說出來 不是這樣對不對"},{"start":386.276,"end":410.02,"text":"所以這個部分剛講的一千億加上原來的六百五十億就一千六百五十億對台灣來說這個是一個很重要對美國也是很重要對全世界來講都很重要當然今天國會的報告裡面提到這個八百八十億這個裡面"},{"start":414.537,"end":422.861,"text":"包含了經濟部主政的部分包括其他的這個農業部主政的部分這個880億這樣的一個"},{"start":430.418,"end":443.141,"text":"請問一下到時候是誰提出這個 是特別預算嗎 部長 那個主委會是特別預算好 那誰 哪一個部會來提報到行政院會有經濟部跟農業部經濟部跟農業部好 這個部分當然你們 因為時間很倉促時間很倉促"},{"start":454.465,"end":478.931,"text":"我所謂的時間很倉促就是說雖然4月2號以前4月3號以前你們有預估然後4月3號宣布然後又正好又放到連假正好就是我們的連假很多的資料相關的資訊的準備當然這個我們很多公務員都"},{"start":480.723,"end":504.367,"text":"也許就沒有放假但是這個資料的收集畢竟還是有限跟業界尤其是產業界包括農業然後因應相關的這些勞工或是農民這些的盤點未必那麼精準880億所以這個部分"},{"start":509.276,"end":536.023,"text":"還是要審慎的去把它盤點之後提出來也許足夠也許不足所以這個部分這個就就這個老公務員的立場來講是是需要再從這個審慎的盤點盡可能不要造成盡可能減少"},{"start":537.431,"end":540.078,"text":"我們的損失了好的 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":495,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時42分）主席、各位委員。有請部長，還有主委。"],["主席：請郭部長、劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：兩位辛苦了。今天的主題，我們召委在4月2日前就規劃這個議題，真的有先見之明，國際經貿情勢的變化，正好4月3日美國川普總統就發布了。有關媒體報導美國對臺關稅的新聞提到，美國保守派智庫研究員計算之後，認為整個關稅的稅率比原來預期的高了4倍，如果從臺灣來看，媒體是這樣報導的，AEI官網公布重新計算對等關稅稅率，認為臺灣應該適用10%的關稅稅率。根據臺灣財政部數據，臺灣2023年平均名目關稅稅率約6.5%，故有分析預估美國對臺最多實施10%的關稅。我之所以要特別提出來，因為要去談判所以也要把這些數據資料作為臺灣談判的資料之一。當然部長一直說不能講出談判的籌碼，但是要把相關的資料蒐集起來，然後實際上的數據應該是怎麼樣。我一直認為總統在4月4號所講的，臺美雙方從零關稅開始談起，我就認為非常的不妥，有很多專業人士也認為一開始談這個就不妥，所以我還是建議去談判的代表一定要仔細。當然資料是你們要提供，各部會要提供這些資料，再怎麼樣應該是10%而不是32%，這樣的數據怎麼樣去提供，這是我的建議，這個我是外行，但是我參考這些資料來看的話是如此。當然我認為台積電也是談判的籌碼之一，我先請教部長，台積電加碼投資1,000億，加上原來的就等於一千六百多億了，就以現在的1,000億來講，要經過我們國家的法定程序，這個程序完成了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在還沒有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。就是因為還沒有完成，所以談判代表一定要提，我們的程序還沒有完成，我們國內無論是立法委員或是業界都認為必須要列這個，看要怎麼說啦，這個談判代表要把它說出來，這個部分是很重要的。大家都認為我們已經投資一千六百多億，我們已經示好了，結果關稅還是32%，所以大家都沒有辦法接受。這個部分我只是建議，當然你們比較專業，所以國發會、經濟部，包括其他的部會要再共同審慎地去研議，看這部分是不是可以成為談判的籌碼之一，這是我粗淺的建議。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會將委員的意見呈給他們參考。"],["鄭天財Sra 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那麻煩我們的陳部長我們周署長陳部長 署長委員好 兩位好我們今年的觀光來台的目標跟去年一樣 定在1000萬那去年沒有達標今年第一季 第一月的時候來台的人數有成長確實有成長但是碰上了這個金融問題可能又會不太樂觀"},{"start":33.322,"end":52.537,"text":"那我想確認一下剛剛延續魯明哲委員的問題啦確實長期以來台灣的觀光逆差的數字都是非常的大今年1月來台灣的旅客確實是增加的但是增幅卻比我們出國旅遊的比例來的低是不是這樣"},{"start":54.689,"end":75.837,"text":"大概比例差多少 我覺得我們一月可能來台成長多少那這個出國的比例成長多少因為出國的部分移民署還沒有提供這個部分第一季他們還沒有提供那一月份對 我們一月份的部分大概我們出國的比例跟這個我們叫英鎊跟澳鎊的部分大概就有10%"},{"start":77.558,"end":100.992,"text":"差不多一樣是成長3%嗎還是多少就是出國跟來我們旅遊的成長大概差幾%成長率啦我們這個數字我們再確認一下你請幕僚先整理一下因為醫護組只公布1月份的好不好你最後再回答我那長期以來我們可能都是著重於這個數字大家這個數字很直觀嘛但是長期以來"},{"start":102.947,"end":124.737,"text":"大家比較關注的最關注的會講到觀光的問題最重要的就是經濟問題就是順差逆差的一個問題那去年我們的這個觀光逆差可能是一個數字但今年我們是我們是預判這個觀光逆差會持續增加還是會變小我們期望是變小那你們有沒有目標"},{"start":126.606,"end":151.133,"text":"報告委員這個數字齁人數的部分其實我覺得去定義意義不大所以你會發現說從過去到現在大家都希望對人數我也不是很在意啦很大的人數但是我一定不會做這樣的事最重要的是經濟嘛對不對對經濟第一一方面是其他的旅客來到各國的旅客來到台灣他的消費的額度我們設法讓他增加第二是希望把旅遊的品質做好讓他一來之後會再來"},{"start":151.953,"end":178.668,"text":"對一來之後會再來這才是關鍵所以說我們去年的這個經濟這個觀光有一個逆差的數字嘛那部長是希望說這個逆差的數字不要再增加了但是就一月來看這個還是不樂觀雖然說來台的增加但是出去有更多站起來不樂觀那您能不能一月份二月份這個齁是因為遇到台灣剛好是過年過年出國的旅客會特別多組長剛剛這要出來是不是對就是一月份的統計確實是10%"},{"start":181.789,"end":200.221,"text":"出去增加10%來台灣大概只有增加3%嘛所以說這個逆差看起來還是持續的會增加我們也是不能說只看好的啦那我想部長可不可以訂定一個目標就是我們今年的觀光的逆差"},{"start":201.081,"end":228.482,"text":"你能不能設定一個目標就是至少數字跟去年持平兩個目標盡量要達成第一個今年的國外來台的旅遊的客人一定要比去年的多要成長這是第一個要做的那第二個要做的我們希望逆差不要再擴大逆差不要再擴大這個部分我們也要努力好就這兩點那當然就是現在還年初那年底的時候我再一併來檢視這個數字好不好那另外"},{"start":228.962,"end":238.082,"text":"在去年的時候應該部長也上任啦如果大概提出一下我們觀光署統計的一個數字就是我們有一個出入境的一個人口的金字塔的一個這個"},{"start":240.759,"end":267.68,"text":"這個圖像嘛就是說各個年齡層性別年齡層我們出國哪個年齡層多少來台灣哪個年齡層多少那我們有發現一個現象就是我們出去的旅遊的民眾的這個年紀大概30歲以上到50歲應該是這個經濟能力正好的情況的民眾出去的比例是最高的這裡合情合理經濟好剛剛部長講我們經濟好出國人就多了嘛"},{"start":268.14,"end":284.213,"text":"那但是我們來台灣的旅客卻沒有也呈現一樣的一個金字塔的一個結構反而是20到29歲來台灣的旅客比例相對起來是比較高的那相對起來20到29歲就是可能大家比較常說的可能"},{"start":286.354,"end":309.21,"text":"壯遊嘛用比較好聽的名詞就是可能不會花那麼多的錢來享受旅遊品質那當然就是對我們剛剛講的經濟的順差逆差可能又會進一步的去擴大那針對這一個部分我去年應該有請教過了那我們有沒有針對這一個部分來做一些檢討希望去做一些改善希望怎麼樣來吸引更多有經濟能力的觀光旅客"},{"start":310.391,"end":324.699,"text":"原本我們就歡迎 沒有說不歡迎但是怎麼樣吸引更多有經濟能力的旅客來台灣我們有沒有做哪些檢討或者是措施一些行銷是 報告委員這個部分其實觀光的內涵我們的內涵怎麼樣呢它是一個低高品質"},{"start":325.379,"end":350.844,"text":"那第二我們希望他多消費所以希望消費的額度可以稍微高一點這個部分我們要來努力那另外就是說針對整體的市場的擴大我們剛剛有提到就是說我們現在增加了很多國家的服務那個據點觀光服務據點為什麼我們要針對一些比較相對陌生的市場我們要去開拓那個地方的一些客源新的客源把市場做大我們的產值才會整體起來對啊那我剛剛講那個年齡結構就代表說我們的台灣的觀光的"},{"start":355.751,"end":363.787,"text":"這個行銷好像就特別只能夠吸引到某個年齡層20到29歲這個年齡層其他年齡層的部分我們有沒有怎樣能夠做加強"},{"start":365.799,"end":389.47,"text":"對我補充一下譬如說日本的市場裡面就是女性也是20歲到30歲他們希望看花火節也就是主題式的這種旅遊很強烈所以我們也不同的市場不同年齡層做區隔我們也會要針對不同的年齡層做廣泛的那勒林族的部分就是比較"},{"start":390.35,"end":415.387,"text":"我們叫漫遊所以我們現在就是按照不同的市場不同的主題還有一些是專門希望能夠部落旅遊的那這個部分我們就是用市場區隔的方式來做處理那我們的成效的部分我們現在還是多多益善所以目前來講當然啦 這個組長你可能有一些目標但這些可能都是比較宣示性的一些"},{"start":416.608,"end":437.623,"text":"想法怎麼樣落地落實能夠吸引到國外的來我們相信今年還有很長年以來我們都有很多努力的一個目標希望說署長我們剛剛講的部分就是針對來臺旅客的一個經濟能力的部分我們也希望就誠如部長的他的想法一樣我們希望更多經濟能力好的民眾來臺灣有品質高消費"},{"start":440.185,"end":467.182,"text":"而不是只關注在這個人數我們希望說觀光署在今年相關的行銷後面也都能夠多加一把勁啦委員您這樣的提醒其實相當好所以未來我也希望觀光署能夠針對消費能力強的那個年齡層我們特別去設計一些遊程或者是特別去設計一些商品來吸引他們來台灣是啊 那過去我們現在目前的這個來台觀光消費你們的行銷的重點區域大概在哪邊以國際上來講"},{"start":470.802,"end":489.248,"text":"我們大概就是三個部分第一個部分就是日韓日韓第二個部分就是重點的那個我們叫東南亞幹嘛不好意思講對 所以我們叫南向 新南向然後第三個重點就是歐美好 那我想這個可能在這個"},{"start":491.078,"end":507.631,"text":"三個面向啦其實因為因應川普的關稅衝擊嘛那勢必會影響到國際的一些旅客這個不能怪任何人不能怪到我們自己的身上但是我們應該要去尋找如果說東南亞在這一波的關稅貿易衝擊是很大的時候"},{"start":508.646,"end":537.807,"text":"那我經濟受到衝擊出國的人士或者是經濟能力一定就會影響嘛我也希望說我們觀光署能夠針對這一波關稅貿易戰對每個國家不同的一個衝擊衝擊越小的他出國的這個意願一定是會維持原本的一個比例嘛那就希望說把關稅戰這個部分也納進去然後去調整我們後續這個觀光行銷的一個客群的目標好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（10時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩陳部長和周署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位好。今年來臺觀光的目標和去年一樣，是訂在1,000萬，去年沒有達標，今年第1季1月的時候，來臺的人數確實有成長，但是碰上經貿問題，可能又會不太樂觀。我想確認一下，延續剛剛魯明哲委員的問題，長期以來，臺灣觀光逆差的數字都非常大，今年1月，來臺灣的旅客確實是增加了，但是增幅卻比我們出國旅遊的比例來得低，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是這樣沒有錯。"],["廖委員先翔：比例差多少？1月來臺成長多少？出國的部分是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：我請署長來說明。"],["周署長永暉：第1季出國的部分移民署還沒有完全提供。"],["廖委員先翔：1月份呢？"],["周署長永暉：1月份我們inbound跟outbound的部分大概就有10%。"],["陳部長世凱：一樣是成長3%還是多少？"],["廖委員先翔：就是出國跟來我們這裡旅遊的成長大概差百分之幾？成長率啦！"],["周署長永暉：這個數字我們再確認一下。"],["廖委員先翔：請幕僚先整理一下，最後再回答我。"],["周署長永暉：因為移民署只公布1月份的。"],["廖委員先翔：好，最後再回答我。","長期以來我們可能都是著重這個數字，因為數字很直觀，但是大家比較關注的是，會講到觀光，最重要的就是經濟問題，也就是順差、逆差的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：去年我們的觀光逆差可能是一個數字，今年我們預判的觀光逆差是會持續增加，還是會變小？"],["陳部長世凱：我們的期望是變小。"],["廖委員先翔：那你們有沒有目標？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個數字、人數的部分，其實我覺得去定義它意義並不大，所以你會發現從過去到現在，大家都希望……"],["廖委員先翔：對！人數我也不是很在意啦！"],["陳部長世凱：大家都希望把人數定義在一個很大的人數，但是我一定不會做這樣的事。"],["廖委員先翔：最重要的是經濟嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，第一，一方面是各國旅客來到臺灣的消費額度，我們設法讓它增加；第二是希望把旅遊品質做好，讓他們一來之後會再來，這才是關鍵。"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們去年的觀光有一個逆差的數字，部長是希望這個逆差的數字不要再增加了，但是……"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們希望不要再增加，因為我們希望來的旅客多一些。"],["廖委員先翔：但是就1月份來看還是不樂觀，雖然來臺的增加，但是出去的更多，看起來不樂觀！那你能不能……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，1月份、2月份是因為遇到臺灣剛好是過年，過年出國的旅客會特別多。"],["廖委員先翔：署長，你剛剛的資料出來了是不是？"],["周署長永暉：對，就是1月份的統計確實是增加10%。"],["廖委員先翔：出去增加10%？"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["廖委員先翔：來臺灣大概只有增加……"],["周署長永暉：3%。"],["廖委員先翔：所以逆差看起來還是會持續增加，我們也不能……"],["周署長永暉：剛剛部長講的沒錯，因為我們過年的時候本來出國的人就會比較多一點。"],["廖委員先翔：部長可不可以設定一個目標，就是我們今年觀光逆差的數字至少跟去年持平？"],["陳部長世凱：有兩個目標要儘量達成，第一個是今年國外來臺旅遊的客人一定要比去年多，一定要成長，這是第一個要做的；第二個要做的是，我們希望逆差不要再擴大，這個部分我們也要努力。"],["廖委員先翔：好，就這兩點，當然，現在還是年初，年底的時候我再一併來檢視這個數字。好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：另外是去年的時候，那時部長應該已經上任了，我要提出一個觀光署的統計數字，就是有一個出入境人口金字塔的圖像，包括來臺和出國的性別及年齡層，我們有發現一個現象，就是我們出去旅遊的民眾，以年齡層的比例來講，大概是30歲以上到50歲為最高，因為他們經濟能力更好，這也合情合理，就像剛剛部長講的，我們經濟好，出國的人就多了嘛！但是來臺灣的旅客卻沒有呈現一樣的金字塔結構，反而是20歲到29歲的比例相對較高，這個年齡層可能就是大家常說的「壯遊」，用這樣比較好聽的名詞，可能就是不會花那麼多的錢來享受旅遊品質……"],["陳部長世凱：消費能力相對低一點。"],["廖委員先翔：那當然就會對我們剛剛講的經濟順差、逆差有進一步的擴大。這個部分我去年應該有請教過了，你們有沒有針對這個部分來做一些檢討和改善，希望怎麼樣來吸引更多具有經濟能力的觀光客？原本的我們都歡迎啦，沒有說不歡迎，但是怎麼樣吸引更多具有經濟能力的旅客來臺灣？你們有沒有做什麼樣的檢討、提出什麼樣的行銷措施？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分其實是觀光的內涵，我們的內涵怎麼樣讓它是第一、高品質，第二、希望他多消費，希望消費的額度可以稍微高一點，這個部分我們要來努力。"],["廖委員先翔：對！"],["陳部長世凱：另外是針對整體市場的擴大，我們剛剛有提到，現在增加了很多國家的觀光服務據點，為什麼？我們要針對一些相對比較陌生的市場，去開拓那個地方的一些客源，透過新的客源把市場做大，我們的產值才會整體起來。"],["廖委員先翔：我剛剛講的年齡結構就代表我們臺灣的觀光行銷好像特別只能吸引到20到29歲這個年齡層，對於其他年齡層的部分，你們能怎麼樣加強？"],["周署長永暉：我補充一下，譬如說在日本市場裡面，女性也是20歲到30歲，他們希望看花火節，也就是主題式的旅遊很強烈，所以，以不同的市場、不同的年齡層做區隔，我們也會針對不同的年齡層做廣泛的推廣，樂齡族的部分叫「慢遊」，所以我們現在就是按照不同的市場、不同的主題，還有一些是專門希望能夠做部落旅遊的，這個部分我們就是用市場區隔的方式來做處理。成效的部分我們現在還是多多益善啦，所以目前來講……"],["廖委員先翔：署長當然有一些目標，但這些可能都是一些比較宣示性的想法，怎麼樣落地、落實，吸引到國外旅客？長年以來我們都有很多努力的目標，針對來臺旅客經濟能力的部分，誠如部長剛剛提到的想法，我們希望有更多經濟能力好的民眾來臺灣進行有品質、高消費的旅遊，而不是只關注人數。我希望觀光署今年的相關行銷能夠多加把勁。"],["陳部長世凱：委員這樣的提醒相當好，未來我也希望觀光署能夠針對消費能力強的那個年齡層，特別設計一些遊程，或者是特別去設計一些商品吸引他們來臺灣。"],["廖委員先翔：對於來臺觀光消費，目前你們行銷的重點區域大概在哪邊？以國際上來講。"],["周署長永暉：我們大概就是三個部分，第一個部分是日、韓，第二個部分是重點的那個……我們叫東南亞……"],["廖委員先翔：幹嘛不好意思講？"],["周署長永暉：我們叫新南向。然後第三個重點就是歐美。"],["廖委員先翔：好。我要提出三個面向，因為川普帶來的關稅衝擊，勢必會影響到國際旅客，這不能怪任何人、不能怪到我們自己的身上，但是我們應該要去尋找，如果東南亞在這一波的關稅貿易當中受到很大的衝擊，經濟受到衝擊，出國的人次或經濟能力一定就會受到影響嘛！我也希望觀光署能夠瞭解這波關稅貿易戰對每個國家所造成的不同衝擊，衝擊越小，他們就會維持原本的出國比例，所以希望你們把關稅戰的部分也納進去，去調整後續觀光行銷的客群目標，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","我們請陳素月委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席有請陳部長 交通部陳部長陳部長還有機場公司的楊董事長是吧嗯 楊董事長 叫回來委員號好這個在問觀光發展之前先請教一下因為我們看了一下"},{"start":25.646,"end":39.926,"text":"因為這個在從過年很多出國或者返國的很多好朋友都擠在機場這個進進出出 delay非常久所以我們對於T3的一個進度我相信這個交通部跟行政院工程會"},{"start":41.067,"end":55.132,"text":"我相信行政院也注意到那可是我們在看這個已經發包的這個跟即將的整個T3的一個整個工程有13項13項我們跟你們要最新的一個進度我們發現大概中間目前有6項進度"},{"start":57.02,"end":85.978,"text":"是有落差的那各位看到已經發包的那現在旅客空調系統比預計的進度慢了10.5%然後主體航廈基電工程慢了接近4%再來就是土電工程也慢了7.5%等等那我想直接先問一下董事長你們說明一下因為這個已經發包的這delay的主要的原因能不能把它趕得上預定的時程"},{"start":86.756,"end":86.897,"text":"請董事長"},{"start":93.803,"end":120.18,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心13件的工程有一件完成有一件正在重新招標所以剩下大概11件工程那目前落後的就是表列裡面所看到的那主要會落後的原因裡面我們現在比較擔心的是主體行下的土建工程跟機電工程部分因為那是T3的一個主要的一個設施所在目前落後主要原因有兩個第一個是缺工的問題依然還存在"},{"start":120.86,"end":148.098,"text":"目前正在積極的趕工當中主要的藏包商我們大概已經是好幾次跟他們做了一些比較實際上的一個盤點所以這些工作的進度目前還是以115年的年底完工為目標進度沒有改變那目前還有一個原因就是我們的修正計畫目前還在進行審議當中修正計畫通過以後會有一些調整那這些問題我們目前整體的趕工的一個目標都沒有改變還是希望如期在116年開始適應運"},{"start":150.279,"end":177.232,"text":"好 這個部長跟楊董事長我想這個很多相關的新的工程有一些是假設還沒有完工但不影響到你主體航廈的啟動但有一些你沒有完工譬如基電新聞沒有完成你就其他全部蓋好你也不見得可以上路所以我覺得這樣的怎麼樣去協調各個工項 工程能夠真的尤其重要的部分要加強趕工人力不夠的已經是幾年都是同樣的問題"},{"start":178.453,"end":202.507,"text":"那最後一個要問一下旅客這個PMS那我覺得在交通部也好工程會還有機場公司在去年的12月19號終於決定了發函解約我個人認為是正確的我個人認為是做一個正確的一個階段那現在整個重新招標那這個過程中那部長你知不知道目前解約解約有沒有解乾淨還是藕斷絲連"},{"start":206.409,"end":225.355,"text":"要打官司嗎我所知道廠商是對於這個違約金的部分還有一些那現在違約金怎麼樣好 楊董事長你上來報告一下違約金談得怎麼樣是這件解約以後我們已經默默收入他的這個理業保證金另外就是到目前為止因為他的這個解約我們有一些損失大概有600多萬我們正式求償"},{"start":226.776,"end":246.375,"text":"這兩個動作都已經執行尤其是李月寶徵簽的部分銀行已經把這一筆錢還到我們放到我們淘氣公司的帳戶裡面來那當然廠商他有他的看法所以按照採購法的程序目前他們提出了一些異議以後會按照行政的這些規定去做處理不過機場公司的立場還是一樣的"},{"start":247.176,"end":269.095,"text":"好我相信未來不管在工程會的一個調解或者未來搞不好會走向法院當然要面對了那我想PMS這個整個重新的系統沒看到我們的公開閱覽要重新招標期間已經過了嘛公開閱覽結束了預計在5月份下個月會公開招標因為等標期金額的部分需要一些時間公開招標那"},{"start":272.417,"end":294.133,"text":"6月份絕標作業這是你們現在的一個規劃那這個的部分你們我想請教一下就是正在跟你們打官司的那些解約的一個廠商會不會戴個面罩這個你要不要再過來後面又是他你知道嗎又是他這個機率大概多大這個老朋友又碰面了"},{"start":295.413,"end":316.34,"text":"我個人的想法是不會有這種機會因為到目前為止我們從新公開招標的這個說明會的過程參加的這些有興趣的廠商其實是蠻多的那到目前為止我們知道已經有兩家廠商在備標當中不包括解約的這家廠商未來審查的時候我們會特別的注意"},{"start":317.096,"end":338.618,"text":"好我真的很期待不要那種惡性的輪迴了換個名字原班人馬又出現了那當然我這個擔心比較擔心當你這一次的招標把車輛跟系統把它分開評分當然就OK啦不要像之前混在一起到時候因為系統他根本跟不上來也沒辦法去做所以我看到你們這一次有去做一個精進"},{"start":339.699,"end":365.661,"text":"那不過你們在舊的標案舊的標案已經廢的那個部分你們整個完工的日期是NTP就開工通知之後加1048天我們看到你們的一個合約書也就是說開工日之後再加兩年大概10個月到11個月那你們現在如果你再看六月底"},{"start":367.725,"end":375.449,"text":"絕標大概簽約整個弄好回去7月8月能夠NTP就不簡單了那這個部分你們有沒有什麼趕工計畫"},{"start":378.179,"end":402.124,"text":"在上一個標案執行過程當中雖然我們這個案子一直delay但是我們知道這個技術一直在不斷的精進所以重新招標以後我們把儀控跟這個測量的製造的部分分別做評分主要的目的就是讓合作的廠商能夠看得出來他這兩個主要的組結構的部分都能夠有一些更好的做法所以你們新的合約預程還是1048嗎還是一樣的原來的一定時間"},{"start":406.145,"end":433.036,"text":"會到117年116年是一個失運轉的一個時間那我們有一個備案就是說如果他的移控設備還不是那麼順暢的話能夠讓他以用手控的方式來操作不影響他的一個好啦新的標案我是為你加油啦那希望你們整個評審委員真的把事情這個要做對不能delay啦最後啊這個署長我直接問部長都可以啦因為我覺得"},{"start":434.574,"end":453.765,"text":"看到你是不是你說的還是觀光署觀光署哪個官員說的在媒體報導訪問你們的時候因為就是去年的觀光逆差就出國的很多很多人然後來台灣旅遊的人很少所以逆差九百萬人次看起來觀光署非常高興因為展現我們經濟的實力這個署長是你說的"},{"start":458.227,"end":484.827,"text":"是這個誰說的啊因為這個公視嘛報告委員這樣子啊我跟委員報告其實是這樣台灣從民國78年到現在已經36年的時間都是觀光人數的逆差那為什麼從78年開始會開始很多的人出國因為台灣的經濟開始起飛那我們也有看過那個數據的那個曲線蠻有趣的當台灣的經濟發展很好的時候出國人數就會很多"},{"start":485.467,"end":506.642,"text":"那台灣的景氣狀況不好的時候人數會稍微下降一些所以這個部長這話是你說的是不是這個話就是我說的只有剛剛我講的這一段你說那個媒體訪問你的意思是什麼你知道他的意思是什麼就是要請希望怎麼樣去吸引的人來到我們台灣旅遊啦這個當然不要逆差這麼多"},{"start":507.543,"end":529.363,"text":"那我希望能夠回答 未來回答具體 能夠有一些比較具體的而不是說 哇 很開心那明年逆差更多的時候你再講 哇 你看我們這次逆差絕對不會很開心啦只要有逆差一定不會很開心像現在美國川普因為逆差所以很不開心嘛那我們也不開心那這個部分我們當然要努力我們來台灣玩的旅客我們盡量要爭取"},{"start":529.963,"end":544.802,"text":"部長署長這樣好了因為時間到了因為這一次這個川普總統的一個關稅大戰才剛開始但我覺得在第三季的時候各個產業會有很具象的一個明顯的影響"},{"start":545.643,"end":564.429,"text":"那我覺得觀光產業也是一樣是不是世界各國都不出國了那台灣的出國是不是也比較省呢那台灣怎麼樣去露營啊有一些比較簡便的簡單的一些輕旅遊這個的部分我是覺得你們在第三季的時候要去考量有可能這樣的一個變化好不好"},{"start":565.131,"end":586.409,"text":"好謝謝委員的提醒我們當然對針對輕旅行的部分我們會來做準備跟委員報告一下除了加強國旅之外可能這句話可能要再補充一下就是我們機票的部分是算算對國內的產值還是有幫助可能他那個可能有點不完全表達我想補充一下好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時30分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長，還有機場公司的楊董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、楊董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長好。在問觀光發展之前先請教一下，因為我們看到在過年期間很多出國或返國的好朋友都擠在機場，進進出出的delay非常久，所以對於T3的進度，我相信交通部、行政院工程會、行政院也注意到了。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["魯委員明哲：可是我們看到已經發包的T3工程有13項，這是我們跟你們要的最新進度，我們發現目前有6項進度是有落差的，各位看已經發包的，旅客空橋系統比原預計的進度慢了10.5%，主體航廈機電工程慢了接近10%，再來土建工程也慢了7.5%等等。我想直接先問一下董事長，你能不能說明一下已經發包的工程delay的主要原因？能不能趕得上預定的時程？"],["陳部長世凱：請董事長。"],["楊董事長偉甫：謝謝委員的關心，13件工程有1件完成、有1件正在重新招標，所以剩下大概11件工程，目前落後的進度就如同表列裡面所看到的，主要落後的原因，我們現在比較擔心的是主體航廈土建工程與機電工程部分，因為那是T3的主要設施所在。落後的主要原因有兩個，第一個是缺工的問題依然還存在，目前正在積極趕工當中。我們已經好幾次跟主要的承包商做了一些實際上的盤點，所以這些工作的進度目前還是以115年年底完工為目標，進度沒有改變。還有一個原因就是我們的修正計畫還在進行審議當中，修正計畫通過以後會有一些調整，我們整體的趕工目標都沒有改變，還是希望如期在116年開始試營運。"],["魯委員明哲：好，部長跟楊董事長，很多相關的既定工程，有些假設還沒完工，並不影響主體航廈的啟動，但是有些譬如機電系統沒有完成，即使其他的全部蓋好，也不見得可以上路。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：所以我覺得怎麼樣去協調各個工項、工程，尤其重要的部分能夠真正加強趕工。人力不夠已經是幾年來同樣的問題了！","接下來要問的是旅客PMS的問題。交通部、工程會和機場公司去年12月19日終於決定發函解約，我個人認為這是正確的做法，讓它進入一個新的階段，整個重新招標。請問部長，你知不知道解約目前有沒有解乾淨？還是藕斷絲連？要打官司嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：據我所知，廠商對於違約金的部分還有一些異議。"],["魯委員明哲：現在違約金怎麼樣？請楊董事長上來報告一下？違約金談得怎麼樣？"],["楊董事長偉甫：這一件解約以後，我們已經沒收了它的履約保證金；另外就是到目前為止，因為它的解約，我們大概有六百多萬的損失，我們也正式求償，這兩個動作都已經執行了。尤其是履約保證金的部分，銀行已經把這筆錢放到我們桃機公司的帳戶裡面來，當然，廠商有他們自己的看法，所以按照採購法的程序提出一些異議，以後會按照行政方面的規定去做處理，不過機場公司的立場還是一樣的。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我相信未來不管是工程會的調解或者是搞不好會走向法院，當然你們都要面對。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：這次PMS重新招標，公開閱覽的期限已經結束了，預計下個月（5月份）會公開招標，因為等標期、金額的部分需要一些時間，6月份會進行決標作業，這是你們現在的規劃？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：我想請教一下，正在跟你們打官司的解約廠商會不會戴個面罩來參加，也就是後面又是它，這個機率大概多大？這個老朋友又碰面了！"],["楊董事長偉甫：我個人的想法是不會有這種機會，因為在我們重新公開招標說明會的過程當中，有興趣的廠商其實滿多的，到目前為止，我們知道已經有兩家廠商在備標當中，不包括解約的這家廠商，未來審查的時候我們會特別注意。"],["魯委員明哲：我真的很期待不要發生惡性的輪迴，換個名字，原班人馬又出現了，這是我比較擔心的。","你們這次招標把車輛和系統分開評分，這當然OK，不要像之前混在一起，到最後因為系統根本跟不上來而沒辦法去做，所以你們這次的做法已經有所精進。不過我看到你們那個已經廢掉的舊標案，整個完工的日期是NTP（開工通知）之後加1,048天，也就是說，根據那個合約書，是開工日再加大約2年10個月到11個月。現在說要6月底決標，等簽約等等整個合約弄好，大概七、八月能夠NTP就不簡單了，這個部分你們有沒有什麼趕工計畫？"],["楊董事長偉甫：在上一個標案的執行過程當中，雖然我們這個案子一直delay，但是我們知道這個技術一直在不斷精進，所以重新招標以後，我們把儀控和車輛製造的部分分別做評分，主要目的就是要能看出合作廠商在這兩個主結構的部分都能有一些更好的做法，目前估計……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你們新的合約日程還是1,048天嗎？"],["楊董事長偉甫：還是一樣、還是原來的預定時間。"],["魯委員明哲：那就會到117年喔！"],["楊董事長偉甫：116年是試運轉的時間，但是我們有一個備案，就是如果它的儀控設備還不是那麼順暢的話，能夠讓它以手控的方式來操作，不影響它的試營運。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，新的標案我是為你加油啦！希望你們整個評審委員能真的把事情做對，不能delay。","最後請教署長，或者直接問部長，不知道是你說的還是觀光署哪位官員說的，媒體訪問你們的時候提到去年的觀光逆差，就是出國的人很多、很多，來臺灣旅遊的人卻很少，所以逆差有900萬人次，看起來觀光署非常高興，說這是展現我們的經濟實力。署長，這是你說的嗎？還是誰說的？我看到的是公視的報導。"],["周署長永暉：應該不會這樣表達啦！"],["陳部長世凱：我跟委員報告，其實是這樣，臺灣從民國78年到現在，已經有36年都是觀光人數的逆差，為什麼從78年會開始有很多人出國？因為臺灣的經濟開始起飛。我們也有看過相關數據的曲線，滿有趣的，當臺灣經濟發展很好的時候，出國人數就會很多，臺灣的景氣狀況不好的時候，人數會稍微下降一些。"],["魯委員明哲：所以部長，這個話是你說的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我說的只有我剛剛講的這一段。"],["魯委員明哲：你知道嗎？媒體訪問的意思是什麼？就是希望你們能吸引人來臺灣旅遊，不要逆差這麼多。"],["陳部長世凱：這是必然的。"],["魯委員明哲：我希望你們未來回答時能有一些比較具體的說法，而不是哇！很開心！那明年逆差更多的時候，你就……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們對逆差絕對不會很開心啦！只要有逆差，一定不會很開心。像現在美國川普就因為逆差所以很不開心，我們也不開心，這個部分我們當然還要努力，儘量爭取旅客來臺灣玩。"],["魯委員明哲：部長、署長，這樣好了，因為時間到了，這次川普總統的關稅大戰才剛開始，我覺得在第3季的時候，各個產業會出現很具象的、明顯的影響，我覺得觀光產業也是一樣，是不是世界各國的人民都不出國了？臺灣人出國的狀況是不是也不……比較誰呢？那麼臺灣怎麼樣去譬如露營等等，有一些比較簡便、簡單的輕旅遊？我覺得你們在第3季的時候要去考量可能會有這樣的變化，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員的提醒。針對輕旅行的部分，我們也會來做準備。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告，除了加強國旅之外，這一句話可能要再補充一下，就是我們機票的部分對國內的產值還是有幫助的，那個說法可能表達得有點不完全啦，我想補充一下。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王育敏","陳冠廷","劉建國","王義川","林倩綺"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「如何推動國際旅客來台觀光」及「提升國際機場量能與服務品質\n及增闢國際線航點航班之作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附\n屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計46案；三、審查人民請願文書共12案","agenda_id":"1143601_00002"}}},{"id":"159949","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159949","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce9b0f26083c87904ea71339fff88aef016e4b1f34053c89dedc5e57efa5a3b9045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:32:52 - 10:43:37","影片長度":"00:10:45","會議時間":"2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 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謝謝主席 有請教育部部長請鄭部長好"},{"start":20.748,"end":40.32,"text":"部長好我想最近這個臺灣面臨到這個經濟的變局關稅的這個世紀之爭那我想非常多人都非常關心我們的民生接下來能不能持續的維護住還有大家百姓的生活那我們本黨委員廖偉強委員呢也在前些日子"},{"start":40.78,"end":65.881,"text":"有分享了開始有一些各地的校長開始關注如果經濟受到影響會不會有一些學童的家長可能因為工作的改變不管是無薪假或者是各種各樣的狀態甚至是中小企業主他生活狀態改變會不會影響到學童的這個教育的狀況也希望請部長還有同仁可以在接下來這段時間可能要持續關注一下在學校內部有沒有一些學童狀況的改變可能來學校的時間減少等等"},{"start":69.484,"end":79.754,"text":"這點我是溫馨提醒 也希望我們的教育部可以持續的為學童的學習狀態做把關了解一下看有沒有一些狀態另外我想因為經濟的變化 我們也非常關注老師的教育跟生活的水平"},{"start":88.763,"end":98.787,"text":"那我想給這個部長看一下這張投影片不知道您能不能看出這個意思這個是40年來我國GDP薪資的成長曲線的比較從1981年到2023年我們的GDP成長了10倍"},{"start":105.29,"end":129.106,"text":"但是我們的薪資只成長了2.4倍那這樣的一個差異呢其實可以看得到我們的各行各業都值得更好更合理的薪水當然也就包含教育部負責的老師以及相關從業人員的薪資所以想要先跟你討論一下公立中小學兼任以及待課教師的終點費的問題今年114年各級學校的教師終點費"},{"start":135.631,"end":152.153,"text":"分別是高中420塊 國中378塊 國小336塊我想請教一下教育部長有沒有理解到這些數字多少年沒有調整過"},{"start":156.519,"end":173.908,"text":"跟委員報告大概委員的資料也充分的顯示從民國79年的400到111年才調整了高中調整20塊然後國中國小也跟著調整謝謝部長您覺得這樣的條幅合理嗎我幫您算過了每一年平均的條幅千分之一啊"},{"start":183.928,"end":208.357,"text":"千分之一35年調漲20塊我們同仁整理出這個數字的時候我真的是嚇傻了我真的嚇傻教育部長我剛剛從口袋抽出這支原子筆部長你已經知道這支原子筆多少錢嗎這支原子筆39元啦你大量購買20塊"},{"start":210.802,"end":228.763,"text":"我們35年的時間老師的薪水只給他漲一支原子筆不到一個小時部長您覺得這樣合理嗎教育部近期有沒有調整的打算還是要再等32年再多半支原子筆呢部長有沒有什麼回應"},{"start":230.148,"end":255.705,"text":"我想對老師的一個權益的一個照顧讓他能夠安心放心的在把我們的小孩子教好我想那是教育部有責任跟地方因為特別在國民教育中小學地方政府他是直接歸地方政府來鎖管但是我要談的是說教育部在這個部分責務旁帶我們來跟地方來看怎麼樣來"},{"start":257.646,"end":270.571,"text":"建立一個更好的支持中小學老師的一些包括在教學的環境包括在報酬包括在生活各方面的一些照顧所以本席拜託教育部認真思考一下你們要做領頭羊思考通膨接下來很可能還會改變"},{"start":275.334,"end":282.664,"text":"對教師們的生活也可能會造成壓力我們也希望能夠提前預警提前緩解好不好我們希望這個部長能不能在一個月內做一個有關教師薪資調整情況的報告出來給我們委員也給社會大眾做參考可以嗎"},{"start":295.219,"end":312.617,"text":"我本來是想說兩個禮拜因為這個時局真的變化很大那我知道同仁都很辛苦能不能一個月內規劃我們來努力好不好有個報告好不好然後我們大家一起來努力啦不然的話我覺得這個經濟的變化等到大家都出現狀況的時候委員剛才所關心我們學童或是家長事實上我們也"},{"start":315.78,"end":339.431,"text":"希望這個學校因為這一個這一個對產業關稅對產業所造成的一些影響我們希望這一個學校老師校長要很敏銳的去檢查到我們的學生或者有可能的改變學校有一些緊急的一些一些協助的現在的狀況報告部長打斷您不好意思現在的狀況是校長"},{"start":340.908,"end":366.319,"text":"開始關注到了家長自己也有點擔心老師也可能會覺得自己的心智面臨到通膨35年沒有跟得上所以部長您的態度很重要啦請您不要去我理解這個縣市政府啦校長部長您的態度很重要領頭好不好可以嗎就老師沒有問題好謝謝那我想接下來還要請這個體育署署長謝謝"},{"start":370.353,"end":395.817,"text":"那署長想跟您討論一下這個疫情啦疫情的調整對年輕運動人才的影響那由於病疫制度的調整我們不論是常備疫或替代疫自從2024年起都恢復成一年那民國94年1月1號以後出生的藝男將沒有辦法申請專長研發替代疫那我其實以前也是研發替代疫"},{"start":396.417,"end":415.284,"text":"所以深受其惠那一級之後就不再有體育役了因為這是在裡面的那只要運動員被判定為替代役的體位有各種狀態啦比如說近視啦或者各種的情況勢必就會有一年的時間無法訓練或比賽這一年的空白以職棒來講的話呢"},{"start":416.764,"end":443.055,"text":"球員的平均這個職涯平均大概只有3.9年培育他們的時間要11年所以一年就非常的長了我相信這不是體育署或未來體育部所希望的想了解一下這個議題有沒有跟內政部溝通爭取目前溝通的進度到哪裡了有沒有可能來恢復體育意報告委員在112年當政府宣布延長兵役的時候我們第一時間就已經有去函"},{"start":443.715,"end":460.8,"text":"那國防部的部分並沒有打算恢復國訓隊的專長役那內政部的部分呢到今年到3月我們還有再一次的聯繫那這個內政部的回應說這是整體的兵役的制度所以這部分可能需要委員在跟內政部這邊幫我們一起來爭取"},{"start":462.14,"end":482.39,"text":"這個跨部會的協調我覺得還是要努力啦這個院長這個AI內閣行動創新好不好我想請教育部部長可不可以跟院長協調一下幫忙橫向的串聯內政部這個國防部能來替這些這個大家爭取一下因為這個今年"},{"start":484.651,"end":500.253,"text":"學子這些選手其實也是很重要的我們的戰力他們在賽場上面戰鬥那我覺得我們也應該要好好的來培植他們來為國家爭光尤其我們看到現在進白宮幫日本去交朋友的"},{"start":500.774,"end":518.416,"text":"對不對是我們的日本的體育選手啊他雖然在美國打球對不對所以體育是一個非常重要的主權跟國力啊能不能來努力一下謝謝委員關心我想我願意來先跟內政部還有國防部來做這個溝通看能不能跨部會有一個合作主動集齊好不好謝謝"},{"start":519.597,"end":528.668,"text":"那我想這個體育署還有教育部啦那未來我們還有體育部嘛所以我想這個溝通應該先把它做起來那最後一個問題想要談談電競選手面臨的問題那電競選手的生命週期更早"},{"start":535.997,"end":561.255,"text":"是15歲開始訓練18歲高中畢業開始打職業賽那現行的兵役制度之下這些選手如果不繼續升學就會被迫服役但如果升學就放棄了整個選手的生涯因此實務上非常多的電競選手是被迫掛著大學學籍來延緩服役我們委員羅天華委員也非常關注所以就在想說"},{"start":562.876,"end":578.505,"text":"也爭取過這是去年了那我想署長當時應該有出席啦我知道署長也逐漸的越來越支持我們電競選手的權益所以我們現在我們也理解到主權 國安都很重要但是我覺得這個文化主權啦"},{"start":579.866,"end":595.895,"text":"這個運動的這個賽事的成果跟這個象徵性也很重要我想教育部不缺這些學生的學雜費體育署有沒有什麼方法協助他們又是跟國防部的溝通也好啦還是我們能不能從教育部上面課業上行政流程上來協助包委員基本上"},{"start":600.817,"end":617.423,"text":"這部分牽涉到病因的問題我們當然還是會積極來跟內政部溝通在學籍的部分就是學生的選擇我想大學 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後審查是一個重點事後審查目前學理上面大概"},{"start":206.696,"end":230.35,"text":"採取就是這個所謂雙軌跟雙接這個理論這個聽講知道吧知道嘛雙軌所謂雙軌就是非針對性言論的內容跟針對言論性的內容就我不是針對言論的內容的問題的言論自由問題例如說我受刑人能不能對外通信我受刑人能不能對外表示什麼就身份他跟內容無關的另外就是跟內容有關的這樣雙軌對不對"},{"start":232.111,"end":245.02,"text":"那雙軌裡面我們今天討論的大概就是針對言論內容是限制的今天主席所列的這個這個所謂特定政治言論顯然就是指針對言論的內容那針對言論內容裡面大概學理上面把它分成雙階對不對兩個不同階這個這個"},{"start":248.871,"end":275.637,"text":"不同階層的言論他的審查到底寬鬆還嚴格是不一樣的對不對一種叫做高價值的言論一種叫做中低價值的言論這個你大概知道吧所謂高價值言論就是什麼呢就像這個有關於政治我們今天列的這個政治、宗教、文學、科學、藝術這高價值的這個要做對於他言論自由限制要比較寬鬆他審查要比較寬鬆"},{"start":279.875,"end":303.593,"text":"對於中低價值的言論 什麼叫中低價值的言論 像商業的廣告 商業言論啦毀謗啦 像這個猥褻性言語啦 像仇恨性語言這個都是比較低階 這個要做嚴格的審查 對不對是不是這樣子 經理長這個理論你知道嗎所以一個 在學理上面要分得其實很清楚一個是高階的 一個是中低階的啊那我們今天就來看看這個個案啊"},{"start":304.727,"end":331.596,"text":"什麼叫做政治言論什麼叫做仇恨性言論一個是高階的言論自由一個是中低階的言論自由我今天如果說我主張台灣獨立這個是政治的言論對不對這是高階的保護他必須要比較寬鬆我主張台灣獨立這個可以吧但是我今天如果說我主張用暗殺來達成台灣獨立我主張用恐怖攻擊來達成台灣獨立"},{"start":333.291,"end":356.3,"text":"那這個就不是政治言論了喔這就馬上掉到所謂仇恨性言論對不對對不對好那我今天主張兩岸統一這個是政治言論對不對這個OK這個高階的受比較寬鬆的保護我今天主張學習台灣我主張用武力用戰爭用侵略用暴力"},{"start":358.592,"end":379.56,"text":"來達成兩岸統一我主張五統這個就不是政治言論了對不對這跟剛剛一樣他現在就掉進了所謂仇恨性言論了對不對是不是 廷長我剛這樣講對不對這是委員的見解我們尊重一個是政治言論一個是仇恨性言論這是不一樣的就像我今天說"},{"start":380.799,"end":408.832,"text":"我想跟你交往這是我的言論自由但是我跟你說你若不跟我交往我就打你這就不是言論自由了對不對是不是廷長我想跟你交往我可以這樣講吧我跟任何人都可以這樣講對不對這是言論自由我說你若不跟我交往我就打你這是不是言論自由這當然就不是言論自由了嘛這就是仇恨性的我剛剛講的仇恨性言論了嘛"},{"start":409.994,"end":435.588,"text":"分得這麼清楚所以不要混淆現在這個案子到底是所謂特主席所講的政治言論還是我剛剛講國際公約裡面所講的仇恨性言論這個要分清楚當然啦這個仇恨性言論這個仇恨性言論什麼樣限制言論自由都應該要有法律依據啦這個剛剛大家都有講"},{"start":436.656,"end":455.695,"text":"那我國對於仇恨性言論自由的限制有沒有法律依據廷長有沒有法律依據仇恨性言論我告訴你因為時間如果按照委員剛剛舉例子那可能像刑法有一些的規範行法有一些啦齁另外整個普遍的仇恨性言論有"},{"start":457.506,"end":477.514,"text":"有關於公民與政治權利國際公約也就是所謂的公正公約我國是立法院通過審議通過實施的對不對是按照公正公約裡面的第20條第一項任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳因應法律禁止之這個是不是跟國內法等同國內法的效力是是嗎"},{"start":479.437,"end":500.405,"text":"所以在國內現在這個案子我們鼓吹戰爭他就是違反目前的國內法這個是毫無意義的因為公正公約我們還立法了立法了一個公正公約的這個經濟社會文化公約兩公約的施行辦法已經把它國內法化了已經把它國內法化了好我們不要講國內法我們再講國際法我們講國際外國的判例在德國德國在這個"},{"start":508.929,"end":511.939,"text":"德國在2020年9月有一個叫做尼克斯"},{"start":513.212,"end":540.097,"text":"訴德國的一個案子他去求職結果他求職沒有被錄取原因是因為他在社群媒體上面有一張照片他的後面有一張圖是過去納粹的這個希姆萊親衛隊希姆萊的照片川軍服的照片掛在他後面所以他用這個理由不錄取他結果他訴訟到憲法法庭在德國是連掛個照片都不行納粹照片你比個納粹手勢都不行為什麼"},{"start":541.736,"end":556.247,"text":"這就是我講的仇恨性言論美國最近2025年1月17他們聯邦最高法院就直接他們就說有關TikTok不賣就禁他不違反憲法沒有違憲"},{"start":557.895,"end":578.044,"text":"他的理由是未來現在TikTok在收集的這些個資會危害到未來如果我們跟中國發生戰爭的時候危害到未來戰爭上面的危險他不是現在立即的危險喔他是針對未來的危險我現在就可以禁止所以這都非常清楚了所以在這次的這個案例 亞亞這個案例"},{"start":580.848,"end":602.321,"text":"我們大家在講 居然還有人跳出來把言論自由針對言論自由把政治性的這個言論跟這個仇恨性的言論分不清楚我剛剛講的我主張台獨是政治性言論我主張用恐怖攻擊實現台獨這不是政治言論我主張統一是政治言論我主張戰爭武力學習台灣武統這個不是政治性言論"},{"start":610.669,"end":612.79,"text":"所以我們來看看這次這個案例齁這次這個案例我看一下齁這個網紅齁網紅他在網路上講說大陸武力統一台灣已經不需要其他理由這是他講的他說這個實質不武統這是不對的"},{"start":637.349,"end":648.542,"text":"他說希望四川艦隊軍功利第一這就是收復台灣這就是武統啊這就是武統啊現在我請陸委會請回這個廳長請回我請陸委會梁副主委你在上來的時間我闡述一下"},{"start":657.674,"end":681.402,"text":"你在飛機上面講說我要炸毀這台飛機這當然不是言論自由我在集滿人潮的捷運車廂上面說我要殺光捷運所有的乘客這當然不是言論自由我到鄰居家門口說我要放火燒房子這當然不是言論自由那為什麼我到這個國家來說我要武力學習你這個國家變成言論自由呢為什麼"},{"start":685.543,"end":710.119,"text":"主委這次這案子這三位網紅他們有沒有中華民國的國籍他們有沒有領中華民國身份證他們沒有中華民國的國籍只有居留他們只有居留嘛換句話說第一個我們所討論的層次有關於國民的所有的保障跟他們都還沒有關係對不對他們還不是國民嘛對不對是對他們只是居留許可而已是根據兩岸人群關係條例的居留許可對不對對"},{"start":712.347,"end":738.388,"text":"這就好像住在你家裡的人如果是你兒子你老婆他是家人如果是你朋友從南部上來住在家裡你說可以我可以住你家嗎你說可以那你就是拘留嘛對不對但是你今天是我兒子你來住我家裡那你是家人啊那你今天一個客人你說一個朋友說我來住你家你說好到你客廳以後說我要放火燒你家我要殺光你全家"},{"start":739.813,"end":751.635,"text":"那我說我沒有打他我只說不好意思我就不讓你你就不要住在我家請你出去這是不是很合理是那我們這一次我們這個撤銷居留許可是不是就是這樣的情形"},{"start":753.66,"end":772.397,"text":"對我們來說就是任何人如果他只有居留身份的話所以他實際上並沒有辦法和中華民國國民做到同樣的權利義務沒有錯所以他如果只有居留身份的話那我們就是根據兩岸關係條例處理沒錯 我們這次所有都是根據兩岸關係"},{"start":773.798,"end":783.043,"text":"兩岸關係條例上面的規定所做的行政行為根本就不牽涉到言論自由的問題對不對所以我想最後現在這社會是似是而非的這樣的說法這概念這麼清楚"},{"start":796.039,"end":820.971,"text":"北一女還貴為北一女的老師說什麼我們把中國視為境外敵對勢力那我們家人住在大陸我的親人住在中國我的親人變成境外敵對勢力講這種沒有常識的講法二次大戰的時候你有去跟蔣介石講說你為什麼對日宣戰我有家人住在日本啊你為什麼把日本變成敵人那我的家人不就變成敵人了毫無常識啊"},{"start":826.516,"end":851.494,"text":"所以這一次這個就是一個照妖鏡這就是海水退了你就知道誰沒有穿褲子在這個時候這次這三個網紅的案子跳出來講言論自由的人請大家就看清楚他們有沒有穿褲子以上好 謝謝那我們先做那個會議的程序宣告稍後再吳世耀委員詢問完畢後休息五分鐘那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時28分）主席，我應該是等一下要請司法院的列席代表，不過今天來的是行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長，可能跟我們今天主題……但是因為有一些是牽涉司法院的權責，還是等一下要請我們程廳長上來。我想我們今天的主題，主席列了這個主題叫做「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告。這個講法其實它有兩個層次，第一個，在我國現在制度裡面，言論自由的界線在哪裡？這是第一個層次的問題。第二個層次是國家介入特定的政治言論，它的界線在哪裡？它其實是兩個層次的，一個是言論自由，廣泛的言論自由，另外一個是國家介入特定政治言論。我想主席今天會列這樣的主題，應該就是跟時事有關，要不然為什麼今天不是討論我國宗教自由之界線，而是討論言論自由之界線？一定是主席對於現在這些時事，認為有一些討論的必要，他才會列這個主題。所以今天這個主題有很多種討論方式，第一種，你可以像政論節目一樣的討論，你也可以做法學跟學術、學理上面的討論，但是這種時事議題，難免就會牽涉到對於政治的評價了，所以我想我們還是先從學理上面來談，我儘量希望從學理上來談，而不是以政論節目的角度來談。我現在是不是請司法院的程廳長？"],["主席：麻煩廳長。"],["程廳長怡怡：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：廳長好。有關我國言論自由的界線，包括國家介入特定政治言論的界線，言論自由的界線，這些部分在我國的法制上面，過去的大法官會議解釋跟現在的憲法法庭判決，是不是沒有討論過這些事情？主席今天列這個案子，是不是因為過去我們的法制上面都沒有在討論言論自由的界線？"],["程廳長怡怡：委員，其實大法官已經做了多號的解釋……"],["沈委員發惠：有多號的解釋啦！我的PPT上面都有寫，大法官對於言論自由界線做了非常多的解釋。我們就學理上面來講，我想大家學法律的，這個應該都看得懂，有關言論自由大概就幾個層次的討論，一個是事前審查的問題，另外還有一些象徵性的言論，像焚燒國旗，我沒有講話，但是我用動作來表達言論的這種象徵性言論，這兩個大概不在今天的討論範圍。再來就是事後審查，這是一個重點，事後審查目前學理上面大概採取所謂雙軌跟雙階理論，廳長知道吧？知道嘛！所謂雙軌就是非針對性言論的內容跟針對性言論的內容，不是針對言論內容的言論自由問題，例如受刑人能不能對外通信、受刑人能不能對外表示什麼，就是身分，它跟內容無關的；另外就是跟內容有關的，這樣雙軌，對不對？雙軌裡面，我們今天討論的大概就是針對言論內容之限制，今天主席所列所謂特定政治言論，顯然就是針對言論的內容，針對言論內容裡面，大概學理上面又把它分成雙階，針對兩個不同階層的言論，它的審查到底寬鬆還是嚴格，是不一樣的，一種叫做高價值的言論，一種叫做中低價值的言論，這個你大概知道吧？所謂高價值言論就是什麼呢？就像有關於政治，我們今天列的政治，宗教、文學、科學、藝術，這是高價值的，對於其言論自由限制要比較寬鬆，審查要比較寬鬆；對於中低價值的言論，什麼叫中低價值言論？像商業的廣告、商業言論、毀謗、猥褻性言語、仇恨性語言，這些都是比較低階，這個要做嚴格的審查，是不是這樣子？廳長。"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個理論你知道嘛？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以在學理上面，它其實分得很清楚，一個是高階的，一個是中低階的，我們今天就來看看這個個案，什麼叫做政治言論、什麼叫做仇恨性言論，一個是高階的言論自由，一個是中低階的言論自由，我今天如果說我主張臺灣獨立，這是政治的言論，對不對？這是高階的保護，它必須要比較寬鬆。我主張臺灣獨立，這個可以吧？但是我今天如果說我主張用暗殺來達成臺灣獨立、我主張用恐怖攻擊來達成臺灣獨立，這個就不是政治言論了，這就馬上掉到所謂仇恨性言論，對不對？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好。那我今天主張兩岸統一，這是政治言論，這個OK，這個高階的受比較寬鬆的保護；但是我今天主張血洗臺灣，我主張用武力、用戰爭、用侵略、用暴力來達成兩岸統一，我主張武統，這就不是政治言論了，對不對？這就跟剛剛一樣，它現在就掉進了所謂仇恨性言論了，是不是？廳長，我剛剛這樣講對不對？"],["程廳長怡怡：對於委員的見解，我們尊重。"],["沈委員發惠：一個是政治言論，一個是仇恨性言論，這是不一樣的，就像我今天說我想跟你交往，這是我的言論自由，但是我跟你說如果你不跟我交往，我就打你，這就不是言論自由了，是不是？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：廳長，我想跟你交往，我可以這樣講吧？我跟任何人都可以這樣講，對不對？這是言論自由；我說你不跟我交往，我就打你，這是不是言論自由？這當然就不是言論自由了嘛！這就是仇恨性的，我剛剛講的是仇恨性言論了嘛！分得這麼清楚，所以不要混淆。現在這個案子到底是所謂主席所講的政治言論，還是我剛剛提到國際公約裡面所講的仇恨性言論，這個要分清楚。當然，這個仇恨性言論，什麼樣的限制言論自由都應該要有法律依據，剛剛大家都有講，那麼我國對於仇恨性言論的言論自由限制有沒有法律依據？廳長，有沒有法律依據？"],["程廳長怡怡：如果按照委員剛剛舉的例子，那可能像刑法有一些規範。"],["沈委員發惠：刑法有一些啦。另外，整個普遍的仇恨性言論，有！也有規定。有關於公民與政治權利國際公約，也就是所謂的公政公約，我國是立法院審議通過實施的，對不對？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：按照公政公約第二十條第一項「任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳，應以法律禁止之。」這個是不是等同國內法的效力？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是嘛！所以在國內，現在這個案子鼓吹戰爭，他就是違反目前的國內法，這個是毫無疑義的，因為公政公約，我們還立法了一個公民與政治權利國際公約及經濟社會文化權利國際公約施行法，已經把它國內法化了。好，我們不要講國內法，我們再講外國的判例，在德國，德國在2020年9月有一個叫做尼克斯訴德國的案子，他去求職，結果他求職沒有被錄取，原因是他在社群媒體上面的一張照片，他的後面有一張圖是過去納粹希姆萊親衛隊，希姆萊穿軍服的照片掛在他後面，所以用這個理由不錄取他，結果他訴訟到憲法法庭，在德國是連掛個納粹照片都不行，你比個納粹手勢都不行，為什麼？這就是我講的仇恨性言論。2025年1月17日美國聯邦最高法院裁定有關美國對TikTok「不賣就禁」不違反憲法、沒有違憲，理由是現在TikTok在蒐集的這些個資，未來如果我們跟中國發生戰爭的時候，會危害到戰爭上面的危險，它不是現在立即的危險，它是針對未來的危險，我現在就可以禁止，所以這都非常清楚了。","在這次亞亞的這個案例，居然還有人跳出來講言論自由，針對言論自由，把政治性的言論跟仇恨性的言論分不清楚。就像我剛剛講的，我主張臺獨是政治性言論，我主張用恐怖攻擊實現臺獨，這不是政治性言論；我主張統一是政治性言論，我主張戰爭、武力、血洗臺灣、武統，這不是政治性言論。我們來看看這次的這個案例，這個網紅在網路上說「大陸武力統一臺灣，已經不需要其他理由」，這是他講的，他說「遲遲不武統是不對的」，他說「希望四川艦成軍第一功就是收復臺灣」，這就是武統啊！","我請陸委會梁副主委。在你上台的時間，我闡述一下，你在飛機上說要炸掉、炸毀這架飛機，這當然不是言論自由；在擠滿人潮的捷運車廂上說要殺光捷運上所有乘客，這當然不是言論自由；到鄰居家門口說要放火燒房子，這當然也不是言論自由，那為什麼到這個國家來說我要武力血洗你這個國家，卻變成言論自由呢？為什麼？請問副主委，這次這個案子的這三位網紅，他們有沒有中華民國國籍？有沒有領中華民國身分證？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他們沒有中華民國國籍，只有居留。"],["沈委員發惠：他們只有居留嘛！換句話說，第一，我們所討論的層次，有關於國民的所有保障，跟他們都還沒有關係，對不對？他們都還不是國民，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["沈委員發惠：他們只是居留許可而已，根據兩岸人民關係條例的居留許可，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這就好像住在你家裡的人，如果是你兒子、老婆，那他們是家人；如果是朋友從南部上來，問你可以住在你家嗎？你說可以，那就是居留，對不對？今天你的兒子住在你家裡，那是你的家人，但如果是一個朋友說要來住你家，你說好，但到了你的客廳後，說要放火燒你家，要殺光你全家，而你並沒有打他，只是說：不好意思，我不能讓你住在我家，請你出去。這是不是很合理？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我們這一次撤銷他們的居留許可，是不是就是這樣的情形？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對我們來說，任何人如果只有居留身分，實際上並沒有辦法和中華民國國民享有同樣的權利義務……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有錯。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他如果只有居留身分，那我們就是根據兩岸關係條例處理。"],["沈委員發惠：沒錯，我們這次就是根據兩岸關係條例的規定所做的行政行為，根本不牽涉到言論自由的問題，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["沈委員發惠：好，不好意思，副主委請回。最後，我要說的是，現在社會有很多似是而非的說法，概念這麼清楚，還貴為北一女的老師，說什麼我們把中國視為境外敵對勢力，那他的親人住在大陸、住在中國，就變成是境外敵對勢力！講這種沒有常識的講法，那麼二次大戰的時候，你有去跟蔣介石說為什麼要對日宣戰，你有家人住在日本啊！為什麼把日本變成敵人，那麼你的家人不就變成敵人了嗎？毫無常識！所以這一次就是一個照妖鏡，海水退了，才知道誰沒有穿褲子，在這個時候，針對這三個網紅的案子跳出來講言論自由的人，請大家看清楚他們有沒有穿褲子。以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們先作會議程序的宣告：稍後在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"159947","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159947","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce4df957e9fd33407eeafc78fb10225fff6e4b1f34053c89de57ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:28:45 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我們請局長好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早局長早局長您就任到現在多久了兩年多"},{"start":19.349,"end":45.146,"text":"局長我們就不講這兩年我們講這一年從現在往前12個月到現在我們跟國家相關的共諜案件受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件每個月都有一個重大案件所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的福建黨不管是我們的陸海空不管是我們的軍警線甚至通常情報部門都有相關的泄密的狀況"},{"start":46.499,"end":65.415,"text":"那這個狀況我一直想請教就是說局長已經兩年多了嘛當然兩年多了有沒有什麼精進的方法因為如果說第一年的話我們當然是那是過去的累積那我們沒辦法去做一些回應但是當已經就此兩年多的話我可能就要具體來請教局長你們的具體的方案是什麼"},{"start":66.583,"end":93.946,"text":"對這部分剛剛也很多委員在關切那我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講我們事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊我們跟調查機關跟檢方那也都建立起非常密切的一個聯繫希望能夠針對共諜案的法律要件的建構能夠讓它成案率比較高那另外我們也跟院方包括法官門也跟法官學院來針對共諜案的一些樣態來跟他們上課所以我們希望做的是情報機關"},{"start":95.007,"end":114.726,"text":"調查機關 檢查機關 跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠比較有一致的看法謝謝局長 你的說法非常好就是說我們要這個檢討但我現在講的是責任的政治總統府有憲兵跟警察姓名的狀況這就總統維安的部分請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎"},{"start":116.191,"end":134.306,"text":"這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸因為我們國安局在負責總統維安協情的單位加起來可能包括的有總統府包括我們的特勤中心包括有國防部的警衛大隊包括各縣市警察局的警察同仁還有縣指部的同仁都在裡面加起來可能有幾十萬人"},{"start":135.006,"end":160.229,"text":"那在安全查核上我們當然會比較優先重要的部分是比較會涉及到一些比較機密日常活動的部分那來加強相關的查核那也跟委員說明我知道委員的辦公室也在關切這個問題我們也跟委員的辦公室有報告那我們的包括我們的移測的頻次已經越來越增加那總統府的憲兵指揮部的2111的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責"},{"start":161.53,"end":175.838,"text":"應該縣指部 因為指揮官也在嘛那指揮官也在他們有一套查核的機制那我們這邊也會來協助有必要來做一些督導我們會來積極的來推辦保六總隊的第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責"},{"start":176.698,"end":200.956,"text":"各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都有自己的一個安全查核各單位都發生了重大的這些情報洩漏的事件那各單位的懲處狀況我希望說包含這個局長如果把你們的這個相關的懲處的報告給我們一份因為我們責任政治是這樣子啦就是說不可能夠重複的在犯一樣的錯誤那責任政治也是代表說當你犯錯誤的時候必須要有人負責"},{"start":201.716,"end":219.471,"text":"那不見得一定要到最上層但是直屬的必須要負責任那才是有一個經濟的方式那這個包括我們的懲處報告我們都要看因為如果說我們每次都用說這個是大家的責任啊這個是都有這樣子的問題啊這個是中共的責任啊"},{"start":220.391,"end":245.01,"text":"當然是中共的責任啊但是我們是為了要保密我們為了要確保說我們國家安全能夠被守護住當然也有行政的責任要去要去一一的再去把這個懲處的作用做好啊不然我們都不斷的在用這種官話把它帶過去好像沒事一樣欸幾件啊福建黨欸全部都有我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎我們現在就不從法律上面來講我們就不從法律上面來講喔從行政上面來講"},{"start":245.771,"end":250.499,"text":"有 我們今天講到國會的助理我記得國會助理的查核部分我們之前也有質詢過嘛"},{"start":252.051,"end":278.087,"text":"如果我們現在不是要用立法階段我們先不談立法 立法的時序可能要很長如果由國會辦公室本身行為可不可以請國安局來簡單的對我們的僱用的人員做背景查核主動自願沒有沒有 就政府機關這一部分的責任應該是在法務部的調查局所以這個我們如果可以請法務部調查局的話他們是不是可以來協助我們做這個查核"},{"start":282.503,"end":305.146,"text":"委員好跟委員報告那現在調查局執行這個安全查核是依照這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員安全查核的辦法對那他是一個正面表列的那目前依照這個辦法他正面表列了1328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核但是沒有包含到國會助理"},{"start":306.126,"end":323.536,"text":"我們知道沒有包含到國會助理我們現在想請教的是說如果由國會辦公室因為涉及接觸的國家安全相關的資料主動希望說調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核比方說很簡單嘛你就從出入境的這個狀況有沒有違規違紀的狀況"},{"start":326.698,"end":339.575,"text":"甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精等等這些都是在這一般的這個美國的一些基本上是我了解我了解在執行上面如果說在執行上面沒有困難但是在法規上面"},{"start":342.859,"end":362.86,"text":"應該要完備啦 因為這個部分畢竟是當事人他一個很私密的一個個人 我的意思是他本身他是因為為了要進入這個國會並且要參與一些機密相關的檔案的 他可能會涉密啊那這種狀況的之下 行政上面是不是可以做到"},{"start":363.641,"end":392.783,"text":"在執行上沒有問題我們現在要請教說如果這樣有沒有違反現今的法令還是我們必須要立刻做修法應該要修法應該是要人事行政總署主管的這個法令應該要把他的查核的範圍再擴大當然我們很希望就是說能夠有一個更安全的機制不過在法規的法制面能夠完整的話其實這樣子是會比較完善"},{"start":393.704,"end":413.545,"text":"所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理而是需要做修法上面來處理因為這個涉及到這個被查人他個人的隱私跟他的個人的資料這是一個很侵入性的一個做法應該要有法令的依據是會比較完備而且這個法令的修正不是那麼的困難"},{"start":414.426,"end":440.828,"text":"OK那是不是可以麻煩法務部可以給我們你們建議的修法的方向是那因為其實我們自己已經有提出相關的法案我們是希望是擴大辦理安全查核啦但是具體的做法因為法務部比較了解這個法律上面的制定的相關的一些程序那再麻煩好謝謝委員這沒有問題可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向那我們可以拿來研究是好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長我"},{"start":443.571,"end":469.473,"text":"我們談這些其實重點是因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人他不見得就是在任職非常高官他可能只是在總統撤進的人而已所以為什麼安全查核他必須要去徹底的執行我剛剛問了那麼多責任就是說因為感覺上好像都有做但是"},{"start":470.174,"end":485.847,"text":"好像都沒在做就是你好像都有做行事上面的流程的完備那可是一再的發生這些問題那是不是代表說我們行政上面要做什麼修正呢比方說我們剛剛講到的出入境那假設他們就像這次的這個國會助理的狀況"},{"start":487.188,"end":513.286,"text":"還有這一個前辦公室 它是在新北市的嘛 黨工的狀況它是在國內交付的嘛所以說變成說國內交付資訊在一層再湊成一層的話那可能就是不能夠只從出入境或者是這樣子的有沒有出境港澳這樣子去看而已可能包含它的金融上面的這些狀況都可能要做查核的這個部分不知道局長有沒有什麼建議因為我實在是也沒有想出什麼"},{"start":513.766,"end":538.796,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們剛剛委員舉的案例是個案因為在偵辦我不能談個案的細節但是就這一類的所謂的共諜案的偵辦那我們的偵辦的手法確實是還蠻多元的但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能的潛在共諜會有一些防範的動作所以容許我們只要是沒關係我們不用除了偵辦之外防範這個部分我們講的這個東西就是防範是"},{"start":543.558,"end":562.611,"text":"偵辦的話法務部要去偵辦調查局要去偵辦嘛那國安局作為同欄不同的機構部門情報部門的我們就是要事先來去做阻止它什麼叫事先阻止我們一直提到的安全查核也講了蠻多次的那好像行政院也有來跟我們討論說未來的立法方向"},{"start":564.212,"end":581.813,"text":"我是真的希望說再多參考一點啦因為時間不等人啦我們已經講了蠻久的這個我也不是我不是第一天來就說局長你這要負什麼什麼責任的不是嘛我不是這樣子的這已經過了一年多了那層出不窮這個單子不斷地在累積不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的"},{"start":582.733,"end":611.092,"text":"會有這麼多的共諜案是因為我們在軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高有很多共諜案大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的所以我們當然看到有很多的共諜案被偵破但另一方面顯示也是軍中的保防教育不斷的在提升我們才有這樣的偵辦的成果我們也希望是這樣就是很樂觀的看待但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做那我當然"},{"start":612.641,"end":639.486,"text":"數目多不代表說我們國家安全狀況越來越嚴峻它可能代表說我們偵查的能量越來越強大都有可能但是但是這個平凡的程序這個涉及的這個離總統的乘風是越來越近那這個層級是越來越高那我有看到你們的報告你也從士官到軍官從現役到退役現役的比例是越來越高喔"},{"start":640.919,"end":648.093,"text":"這些都是你們的數據這個我是希望說大家加油一點好不好因為這個從內部瓦解是最容易的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":436,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時28分）你好，請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長早。局長，您就任到現在多久了？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩年多。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，我們就不講這兩年，我們講這一年，從現在往前12個月到現在，跟國家相關的共諜案件，受社會矚目的案件大概有18個案件，每個月都有一個重大案件，所謂重大案件就是不管是我們的府院黨、不管是我們的陸海空、不管是我們的軍警憲，甚至包含情報部門，都有相關的洩密狀況。這個狀況我一直想請教，局長已經就任兩年多了，有沒有什麼精進的方法？因為如果是第一年的話，我們當然說那是過去的累積，我們沒辦法去做一些回應，但是已經就職兩年多的話，我可能就要具體請教局長，你們具體的方案是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這部分，剛剛也有很多委員在關切，我們在偵辦這些共諜案來講，事實上不只是我們國安情報團隊，我們跟調查機關、跟檢方也都建立起非常密切地聯繫，希望透過共諜案的法律要件的建構，能夠讓它的成案率比較高。另外我們也跟院方，包括法官們及法官學院，針對共諜案的樣態來跟他們上課，所以我們希望做的是，情報機關、調查機關、檢察機關跟審理機關對於共諜案在審理上能夠有比較一致的看法。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，你的說法非常好，就是我們要檢討，但我現在講的是責任的政治。總統府有憲兵跟警察洩密的狀況，就總統維安的部分，請問這個安全查核是由國安局負責的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分當然國安局責無旁貸，因為國安局在負責總統維安，協勤單位包括總統府、特勤中心、國防部警衛大隊、各縣市警察局的警察同仁，還有憲指部的同仁都在裡面，加起來可能有幾十萬人，在安全查核上，我們當然會比較優先針對有涉及到比較機密、日常活動的部分來加強相關的查核。也跟委員說明，我知道委員辦公室也在關切這個問題，我們也跟委員辦公室有報告過，包括我們的儀測頻次已經越來越增加……"],["陳委員冠廷：總統府的憲兵指揮部211營的安全查核是由哪一個單位負責？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該是憲指部，因為指揮官也在，他們有一套查核的機制，我們這邊也會來協助，有必要來做一些督導時，我們會積極地來推辦。"],["陳委員冠廷：保六總隊第一警官大隊的安全查核是由哪一個單位來負責？"],["蔡局長明彥：各單位都有自己的安全查核……"],["陳委員冠廷：各單位都有自己的安全查核，但各單位都發生了重大情報洩漏的事件，關於各單位的懲處狀況，包含國安局，我希望局長可以把你們相關的懲處報告給我們一份。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為責任政治是這樣子，不能夠重複地再犯一樣的錯誤，責任政治也是代表當你犯錯誤的時候，必須要有人負責，不見得一定要到最上層，但是直屬的必須要負責任，那才是一個精進的方式。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們會再提供。"],["陳委員冠廷：包含你們的懲處報告，我們都要看。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：因為如果你們每次都用「這個是大家的責任、都有這樣子的問題、這個是中共的責任」這樣的說法，這當然是中共的責任啊！但是我們為了要保密、為了要確保國家安全能夠被守護住，當然也有行政的責任要一一地把懲處狀況做好。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：不然我們都不斷地在用這種官話把它帶過去，好像沒事一樣，都幾件了？府、院、黨全部都有，我們之前不是講過安全查核的問題嗎？我們現在不從法律上面來講，就從行政上面來講，我們今天講到國會助理，我記得我們之前也質詢過國會助理的查核部分，如果我們現在不是要用立法階段，我們今天就不談立法，因為立法的時序可能要很長，如果由國會辦公室本身行文，可不可以請國安局簡單地對我們的僱用人員做背景查核？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個可能在……"],["陳委員冠廷：主動、自願？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，就政府機關這一部分的責任，應該是在法務部調查局。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們是不是可以請法務部調查局來協助我們做查核？"],["陳局長白立：委員好。跟委員報告，現在調查局執行安全查核是依照涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法，它是採正面表列，目前依照這個辦法，它正面表列了1,328項的職務是可以由我們來執行安全查核，但其中沒有包含到國會助理。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我們知道沒有包含到國會助理，我現在想請教的是，如果由國會辦公室行文，因為涉及接觸國家安全相關的資料，主動希望調查局能夠協助我們做行政上面的安全查核，很簡單嘛！比方說，你就從出入境的狀況、有沒有違規、違紀的狀況，甚至是有沒有用藥或者是濫用酒精的狀況等等，這些都是在一般美國的一些基本上……"],["陳局長白立：是，我了解……"],["陳委員冠廷：可不可以？如果法令上沒有禁止的話。"],["陳局長白立：在執行上面沒有困難，但是在法規上面應該要完備，畢竟這個部分是當事人一個很私密的個人資料和隱私……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我的意思是，如果他是為了要進入國會來參與相關的機密檔案，他可能會涉密，在這種狀況之下，行政上面是不是可以做到？"],["陳局長白立：在執行上，我們沒有困難。"],["陳委員冠廷：我知道執行沒有問題，我們現在要請教的是，這樣有沒有違反現今的法令，還是我們必須要立刻做修法？"],["陳局長白立：應該要修法。"],["陳委員冠廷：要用修法的方式去……"],["陳局長白立：對，應該要把這個人事行政總處主管的法令的查核範圍再擴大，當然我們很希望能夠有一個更安全的機制，不過如果法制上面能夠完整的話，其實這樣是會比較完善的。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這個沒有辦法在行政上面直接做處理，而是需要從修法上面來處理？"],["陳局長白立：因為這涉及到被查核人的個人隱私及個人資料，這是一個很侵入性的作法，應該要有法令依據會比較完備，而且這個法令的修正不是那麼困難。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，是不是可以麻煩法務部給我們你們建議的修法方向？"],["陳局長白立：是，可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：其實我們已經有提出相關的法案，我們希望是擴大辦理安全查核，但是具體的作法，因為法務部比較了解法律上面相關的程序，再麻煩！"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員，這沒有問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：可不可以兩週內給我們一個修法的方向，讓我們可以納入參考？"],["陳局長白立：好，我們回去馬上研究，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。國安局局長，我們談這些的重點是，因為接觸到許多機敏文件的人不見得任職非常高官，他可能只是總統側近的人而已，所以為什麼安全查核必須要去徹底地執行？我剛剛問了那麼多責任，感覺上好像都有做，但是又好像都沒在做，就是你好像都有做，好像形式上流程都有完備，可是卻一再地發生這些問題，那是不是代表行政上面要做什麼修正？比方說，我們剛剛講到出入境，就像這次國會助理的狀況，還有新北市的前辦公室黨工的狀況，他是在國內交付的，變成這些國內交付資訊從一層再串成一層的話，那可能就不能夠只從出入境或是有沒有出境港澳去看而已，可能包含他在金融上面的狀況都要做查核，針對這個部分，不知道局長有什麼建議？因為我實在也沒有想出什麼方法。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我跟委員說明，剛剛委員舉的案例是個案，因為在偵辦中，我不能談個案細節，但是就這一類共諜案的偵辦，我們偵辦的手法確實是還滿多元的，但因為它有涉及到我們不太適合揭露我們的偵辦手法而讓可能潛在的共諜會有一些防範的動作，所以請容許我們私下跟委員說明……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我們不用……除了偵辦之外，防範這個部分，我們講的這個東西就是防範，如果是偵辦的話，是法務部要去偵辦、調查局要去偵辦，國安局作為統攬各個不同機構部門、情報部門的單位，就是要事先阻止他，怎麼樣事先阻止呢？我們一直提到安全查核，也講了滿多次的，行政院也有來跟我們討論未來的立法方向，我是真的希望再多參考一點，因為時間不等人，我們已經講了滿久了。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：我也不是第一天來就說，局長，你這要負什麼什麼責任。不是嘛！我不是這樣子的，是已經過了一年多，案子層出不窮，這個擔子不斷地在累積……"],["蔡局長明彥：不過換另外一個角度跟委員說明的是，會有這麼多共諜案也是因為軍中官兵的保防意識真的是越來越高，有很多的共諜案，大概有八成七都是由國軍官兵來檢舉的，當然我們看到有很多共諜案被偵破，但另一方面顯示軍中的保防教育不斷地在提升，我們才有這樣的偵辦成果。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們也希望是這樣子，可以很樂觀地看待，但是對防範的部分要用最悲觀的角度去做。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，同意。"],["陳委員冠廷：當然數目多不代表我們國家安全的狀況越來越嚴峻，它可能代表我們偵查的能量越來越強大，都有可能，但是這個頻繁的次數，而且離總統層峰是越來越近，層級是越來越高。"],["蔡局長明彥：完全了解委員的……"],["陳委員冠廷：我有看到你們的報告，從士官到軍官，從現役到退役，現役的比例是越來越高喔！這些都是你們的數據，我是希望大家加油一點好不好？因為從內部瓦解是最容易的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的上臺質詢。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}},{"id":"159946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce05327187541d357aa0ce932bdb5123486e4b1f34053c89de1db97a0ba832a5a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:18:56 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請柏定叫主委郭部長 劉主委委員長柏定 我們現在是共護國難啦 共護國難角色非常重要 經濟補給國發會都很重要很重要的 包括我發現一個神奇怪的現象你4月4號"},{"start":49.878,"end":79.136,"text":"那一天你的角色應該是重中之重啊你為什麼做到第二排一個記者會前程一百分鐘你幾乎都沒有講欸有評論你有看到嗎?他們說你那個表現啊比那個手藝老師啊還不如你明明應該有準備的嘛對不對?那一天你是被下封口令還是你不想講?報告委員你看到的那個畫面跟事實不一定是正確的你去看棒球"},{"start":80.831,"end":104.938,"text":"投手好幾個在後面然後這個先發投手投得很好 九局都他在投啊對不對 我本來是中繼角色啊那你說我沒有上去就代表說我沒有用嗎大概是這個樣子 我跟你報告啦齁那一天我們是 我準備要回答記者的提問"},{"start":106.479,"end":129.486,"text":"但是記者的提問 提完了 我們院長副院長都答了都答完了啊 就沒有輪到我這是事實 跟你報告就這樣所以評論才會講說你比那個衰老師表現都不足啊我現在 人民現在比較關心的你角色要很積極 不好意思我問你啦你那天沒有上台是怎麼樣 你是被下風口令還是你自己主動就不上去"},{"start":130.097,"end":146.745,"text":"沒有啊 這個就是分工合作嘛分工那你不可能投球 人家都是部會所長你聽我講不可能兩個投手上去投嘛那你是投手啊 為什麼是次長上去啊沒有 你是被主席 現在民眾不可以這樣他上去是在報告嘛"},{"start":147.406,"end":159.175,"text":"不是在回答問題啊我的重點不是在回答問題你聽到嗎後來又沒回答喔不然就沒問題我怎麼回答啊為什麼不去報告是人家怕你講真話是要講錯話嗎"},{"start":160.954,"end":170.077,"text":"報告是完全照上面唸的啊他們的比較少啦 內容比較少啦我內容比較多啦我相信你應該 我在說的意思你應該很清楚對不對這怕要去 你要關心打棒球嘛我這用你認識的這個棒球的這個環境來跟你做解說嘛你應該聽得懂嘛"},{"start":185.581,"end":208.109,"text":"對不對所以你本來要準備上場後來沒上場嘛我告訴你沒上場的原因第一個 我跟你講清楚跟民眾講嘛因為民眾希望你有積極的角色嘛重中之重嘛那一天你是被嚇瘋狂我的角色是回答記者他要問的問題那一天記者都沒有問我能夠回答的問題啊對啊 沒問到什麼經濟問題啊就是問那些比較...比較...那個..."},{"start":219.393,"end":241.948,"text":"所以不是被下風口令嘛也不是說怕你上去講錯話或者講了真話又戳破了一些謊言報告委員這一種基本假設的機率等於零我們行政院是一個團隊每個人誰應該扮演什麼角色是非常的清楚我那一天的角色就是回答記者的問題"},{"start":243.29,"end":249.35,"text":"因為那個報告,我的次長上去報告結果那個報告,他可以報告我也可以報告"},{"start":250.285,"end":272.073,"text":"但是我報告在回答問題 因為比較長所以我們稍微分工一下開了惡例啦 以後每個部委首長都叫次長上去報告這樣怎麼好啊報告跟結果有沒有差別 沒有差別問題是回答問題嘛我是在回答問題啦 結果沒有人問問題好啦 下次記者要記得請教那個部長問題要記得問啦 好不好"},{"start":276.095,"end":303.361,"text":"好 那我們現在就是要很積極的現在我就問問題啦 你要好好答喔不要就躲起來 又跑到第二排去啦不會啊 因為現在現在第一排沒有人我們現在問第一排的問題 你不要閃躲現在 賴總統因為情色共啊要大舉的採購美國的天然氣嘛 對不對剛才講說盤點過啦我們天然氣大概要買多少目前我們所有天然氣 你知道嗎我們跟美國買的比例是多大 你知道嗎所有買的天然氣跟全世界各國多少錢啊"},{"start":306.727,"end":317.93,"text":"才10%耶那你現在要提高到多少不是三成喔10%目前只有10%你現在盤點過了你現在要大概要買多少跟美國這次要大總統說要你大局去買要買多少"},{"start":320.427,"end":344.243,"text":"我們現在就是目前這個確實是如你所說的我們目前跟美國買因為這個市場價格的問題啦成本的問題啦阿中來阿就是20%至30%啦所以要一倍到增加也不是說一倍啦就是說我們根據這個需求嘛阿我們因為這個有辦法為美國可以買現在對我們有一個優勢就是說我們為什麼過去沒有買美國那麼遠就是美國在我們太遠了啦"},{"start":350.667,"end":357.273,"text":"但是現在這個新的條件是這樣阿拉斯卡 因為阿拉斯卡直接從上來到台灣十天而已"},{"start":359.022,"end":380.827,"text":"而且不會經過中國的這個這個他們在那邊的這個這個什麼東海的地區啊什麼的所以對我們來講這個是非常好的選項部長你今天很好你知道第一線來講這個非常具體啊我們本來只有買天然氣在所有天然買天然氣的全世界各國只有10%現在大幅增加到20%到30%這個很重要另外更具體的你剛才說過"},{"start":384.639,"end":399.02,"text":"我們已經跟這個阿拉斯加的這個天然氣公司已經簽了這個投資意向書嘛對不對對那天我特別問你那個金額光是說他說是用管線就要400億的美金嘛你說不只那個錢還包括什麼採購對不對那個要一起開採對不對"},{"start":400.933,"end":419.795,"text":"發財可能要擴大嘛擴大一點這個部分我們是參與這個計畫啦這個計畫啊詳細的我不是那個那個單位啦你今天有參加嘛現在就是通常他的價位就是在那買衣服要買很多天然氣之外他這個開發計畫一共要花400億不管管線都開採嘛400億美金真的很大喔所以我們會負擔多少"},{"start":422.005,"end":426.51,"text":"那個不是說這麼大的金額就如你所說這麼大的金額我們當然要審慎具體的評估啦然後我們投資是根據我們將來採購的量"},{"start":443.939,"end":467.444,"text":"也有關係啦 因為你是高童 你是高童你的營養程度有多高對你買的價格就有差別啦我想這個委員應該是很清楚嘛 你是財經專家嘛你一定很了解我的投資跟我的報酬率這個是我們的關鍵啦所以這一部分我想委員應該是非常的清楚我們為了這幾天就可以確定說"},{"start":470.745,"end":485.397,"text":"這個幾十年的慷慨不可能的事情媒體本來在報導說440億美金我們可能會佔一半這個是還沒有做過勾算的如果是這樣我可以跟你馬上回應這個問題啦絕對不會佔一半不會那麼多啦可是就是包括這個管線跟這個開採我們都會參加就對了"},{"start":487.538,"end":516.335,"text":"我們是溝通嘛我們會講說我如果參與是股東然後股東可以買到什麼好的價格我的ROI到底是多少這個是非常重要的關鍵對我們來講對經濟部來講怎麼樣提出一個服務國利民的政策做投資這個是我們基本關鍵這跟委員報告這樣所以到時候財務報告要給大家好不好要勾算了不要丟了太多錢"},{"start":518.239,"end":534.741,"text":"賠太多錢這個也不行啦我們現在是鼓勵要去投資啦另外一個 我覺得現在很重要的剛剛講天然氣你們想過這段時間我們要降低我們對美國這個逆差有一個很重要的 其實天然氣有啊就是核電喔"},{"start":537.154,"end":556.709,"text":"美國連他們AIT的處長都直接跟我們講了他願意幫我們提供他們的技術跟服務對不對而且這個金額很大這方面又是安全的美國跟日本美國現在都大舉在用這個核電了嘛對不對那利用這個機會啊我們現在有發展核電第一就是叫他們的處長說的嘛"},{"start":558.03,"end":586.481,"text":"鼓勵人說的啊鼓勵人說的疊疊重點他說核電是比較穩定的第二個它是便宜的對不對那這樣你就不用漲電價還可以降電價啊又可以第三個現在剛好要降低這個逆差你應該好好不要思考這個問題對所有的新的科技能源我們都會多方的評估那麼我想我們對這個您剛剛所說的這些可能的部分我們還是基本上的原則全國國人有共識然後核廢料可以處理"},{"start":587.662,"end":593.173,"text":"那這個是安全的我想這三個條件之下我們不排除任何新的科技穩定這個"},{"start":596.088,"end":624.479,"text":"電價又低 不只不用上還可以降可以降 第三個美國已經主動我們沒有排斥 報告委員我們沒有排斥第三個最重要 我們沒有排斥現在可以大幅的降低我們這個逆差我們的關稅就不用這麼高了這個比買很多天然氣都有用喔不然現在內委會考慮嘛對不對我們不反對任何新的科技的能源科技我們不會反對的我們會評估 您剛所指示的我們會評估我再問一個更具體的"},{"start":625.939,"end":652.467,"text":"這幾天裡面有很多人在問你連電啊跟閣樓房的這個兩家要聯親的這個事情兩家要聯親我問的是非常直接的喔你要在第一線不要跑要跑到第二排去了有吹哨者啊直接來直接來這邊提供很重要的這個訊息他說經濟部啊有一個官員啊前官員才退休啊叫做廖衛軍"},{"start":655.538,"end":675.511,"text":"他在促成這個事情,你認識這個人嗎?不認識你不認識廖慧君?我是去年520才加入這個經濟部的,所以這一位我不認識所以今年啊,崔少澤講說今年閣樓方德的高層有到台灣來三月份有來,你跟這個高層有見過面嗎?沒有"},{"start":678.317,"end":699.773,"text":"確定沒有 沙偉當然沒有啦你想一下啊 我在這個地方可以在這個在這個國會我不會讓外面人說啊我就是沒有啊所以你跟那個跟這個閣樓方德任何的人沒有接觸沒有沒有ok好 那五月份馬上就到了嘛對不對是五月份馬上就到了是你會去參加這一場這個連電啊跟閣樓方德他們這個聯婚嗎報告委員傳說的東西啊"},{"start":706.924,"end":708.105,"text":"這個是不確定的一個訊息你應該去問這個聯電有沒有這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":729.707,"end":753.744,"text":"我們是經濟部基本上如果他們有意願他一定會送到我們的投資部那我們會經過我們的投審會那這個到目前為止我們有收到這樣的一個投資意向這是第一件事情第二個這個是傳聞傳聞不以置評傳聞不以置評三個五月份我會不會去美國到目前為止"},{"start":755.166,"end":771.983,"text":"我們的行政院的這個整體的運作是動態的到目前為止我沒有收到這個訊息所以你本來5月份要去美國參加2025選擇美國投資高峰會這個行程可能有異動是不是這個不見得是有預定要去嘛對不對"},{"start":773.359,"end":784.916,"text":"這個我們因為碰到這個關稅的問題國家會整體的考量那我想這個是動態的部分到目前為止我沒有收到訊息其實民眾想了解的是為什麼會關心聯電"},{"start":789.702,"end":815.759,"text":"這是有沒有要去幫我們是二哥去幫二哥之前護國神山是大哥嘛對不對已經去幫了英特爾啦那這次我們的二哥會不會聯電變成美聯電這個是大家的問題委員我們如果要做這個所謂的這種投資啊策略的討論我們可以另外闢時間好不好我可以告訴你非常正確因為我以前在研究所教書就是教策略管理所以我可以告訴你真正的"},{"start":816.881,"end":832.271,"text":"這個是不可能的事情部長 聯電這個事情就是三個這是三個嘛 民眾要知道就三個啦第一個會不會因為復國神山去了之後大哥去了之後 二哥又去那聯電去了有三個大的影響嘛就是你現在不是假設性的問題啊他如果真的去 你現在要了解的"},{"start":832.791,"end":836.973,"text":"他規模很大 一個是傳言 我不予評論啦那你如果說我們要討論學術的研究我可以另外跟你討論啦所以我的意思就是說對傳言的部分 報告委員對傳言的部分不予評論"},{"start":851.94,"end":864.785,"text":"那我五月份會不會去美國要等到這個行政院的指示因為這是動態的部長我說你不要跑到第二排去你第一排你要去面對問題連電的問題至少要面對三個問題第一點會不會連電跑去美國被美聯電的時候我們的半導體這個整個產業會不會受到什麼影響這第一點你是要評估的嘛你做經費部長你當然要回答這個問題啊第一點"},{"start":878.952,"end":900.613,"text":"對我們的半導體的發展那個營業有到底影響有多大第三點人才啊去的一定帶一堆人去嘛你這三個評估好了以後你才能夠知道說這個事情要怎麼去應對嘛要不然的話你就永遠在第二排咧好不好至少做這三個這個評估啊好那五月份我們見真章看你有沒有去啦好不好不好意思我一條時間問請可以嗎好不好我簡單問一下請教一下國發會主委"},{"start":903.584,"end":919.435,"text":"除以一段有提到說你們之前有做了這個評估最低可能是10%最高可以到35%那為什麼如果真的有做這個評估那你們會不會太樂觀行政院長怎麼叫我們安心稅啊完全沒有意想到可能有35% 32%嗎"},{"start":926.853,"end":944.165,"text":"我們的版本有到32%在那天的記者會副院長有說得很清楚我們的版本最高到35%這個是如果你有去看當天的記者會如果32%你叫我們安心說這個行政院到底是在逃跑去是不是不只是無能問題啊32%整個台灣你看這個一個海嘯來"},{"start":951.291,"end":973.483,"text":"他焦頭爛額 驚慌失措你們會預估到35 32 怎麼那時候沒有 怎麼可以叫我們安心稅目前沒有驚慌失措 那我們再往前推 再往前推行政院長叫我們安心稅的前面你看歐盟還有全世界多少國家 美國已經攀了幾堆我是建議你不要製造社會的恐慌當政府積極正面的在解決問題 我們也的確有方案在解決問題"},{"start":974.884,"end":993.622,"text":"那其實您如果對這個方案有意見可以協助我們強化但是不應該一直鼓勵民眾要恐慌這是我認為一定要你如果處理得很好我們現在共護國內把他處理了當然就不會恐慌啊如果你認為把他處理得好你應該提出來叫大家安心睡民眾才會恐慌啊"},{"start":993.982,"end":1013.999,"text":"委員您是很知名的財經專家其實如果您也一起大家一起來共同努力我相信國家會更好我覺得很重要剛講天然氣這個採購採購這個方向你要整體去整體去盤整我剛講的我覺得現在最重要可以馬上降低那個逆差的其實就是核電了對不對"},{"start":1015.285,"end":1042.137,"text":"大幅降低你關稅就可以降啊而且又電又穩定啊電價又可以不要漲回往下是不是要去爭取這個這才是我們這樣王牌啊我想經濟部剛才已經有對這件事有一個回應因為我不負責電廠的部分所以我們沒有辦法表達意見整體的國家發展對電力獎很重要而且這次你們老實講你們兩位都是重中之重我們談的好不好就看你出去王牌好不好"},{"start":1043.561,"end":1068.21,"text":"對不對 你現在天然氣買了嘛 對不對我說你好好去考慮一下跟賴清德賴總統的建議而且你們去談的時候把核電廠放進去這絕對是一張好牌人民會幫你們國長的啦電 電穩定對不對電價又可以降 不要漲美國又主動開口利差又可以降低為什麼不做呢好不好這位老爹 好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":365,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請部長和主委。"],["主席：郭部長、劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們現在是共赴國難，共赴國難的角色非常重要，經濟部和國發會都很重要、很重要，不過我有發現一個很奇怪的現象，4月4號那一天你的角色應該是重中之重，你為什麼坐到第二排？一個記者會全程100分鐘，你一句話都沒有講欸！評論你有看到嗎？他們說你那天的表現比那個手語老師還不如。你明明應該有準備的嘛，對不對？到底是為什麼？那一天你是被下封口令，還是你不想講？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你看到的那個畫面跟事實不一定是正確的，你去看棒球，投手好幾個在後面，然後先發投手投得很好，九局都他在投啊！我本來是中繼角色，你說我沒有上去就代表我沒有用嗎？大概是這個樣子啦！我跟你報告，那一天我準備要回答記者的提問，但是記者的提問提完之後，院長、副院長都答完了，所以就沒有輪到我，這是事實，跟你報告就是這樣。"],["張委員啓楷：所以評論才會說你比那個手語老師表現都不如啊！現在人民比較關心的……"],["郭部長智輝：不是啦，我是……"],["張委員啓楷：你的角色要很積極，部長我問你，你那天沒有上臺是怎麼樣？你是被下封口令，還是你自己主動就不上去？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啊，這個就是分工合作嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：分工？為什麼人家都是部會首長……"],["郭部長智輝：不可能投球時兩個投手上去投嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：應該你是投手啊，為什麼是次長上去？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：現在民眾問的……"],["郭部長智輝：他是在報告，他上去是在報告嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：人家都是部長上去講，你不是應該……"],["郭部長智輝：我的重點是在回答問題，你聽懂了嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：後來也沒回答啊！"],["郭部長智輝：就沒問到，我怎麼回答？"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼不上去報告？是人家怕你講真話還是又講錯話嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告是完全照書面唸的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：每個部長都是自己在唸，院長和部長都是自己上去唸，你怎麼不上去唸？"],["郭部長智輝：他們的內容比較少，我的內容比較多啦。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我只有兩個問題而已……"],["郭部長智輝：我相信我所說的意思你應該很清楚，你那麼關心棒球，我就用你認識的棒球環境來跟你解說，你應該聽得懂嘛，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：所以你本來準備要上場，後來沒上場嘛！沒上場的原因，第一個……"],["郭部長智輝：我……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，其實你可以清楚地跟民眾講，因為民眾希望你有積極的角色，重中之重嘛！那一天你是被下封口令還是你主動不上去？"],["郭部長智輝：我當然有積極的角色，我的角色是回答記者所問的問題，那一天記者都沒有問我能夠回答的問題啊！都沒問到什麼經濟的問題，都是問那些比較……前面的投手都已經投到第九局了，我又沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們來做個小總結，所以你不是被下封口令，也不是怕你上去講錯話……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我……"],["張委員啓楷：或者又講了真話，又戳破了一些謊言？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一種基本假設的機率等於零，行政院是一個團隊，誰應該扮演什麼角色都非常的清楚，我那一天的角色就是回答記者的問題，那天是由我們的次長上去報告，就那個報告而言，他可以報告，我也可以報告，但是我報告之後再回答問題，因為內容比較長，所以我們稍微分工一下。"],["張委員啓楷：不要開惡例啦，以後每個部會首長都叫次長上去報告，這樣就不好了，因為就這件事情而言，你的角色要非常的……"],["郭部長智輝：報告跟結果有沒有差別？沒有差別！關鍵是回答問題嘛！我是在回答問題的，結果沒有人問問題啊！"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，下次記者要記得請教部長問題，不要讓部長被晾在那邊沒有機會講話，要記得問好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在就是要很積極的，現在我就問問題了，你要好好答喔，不要再躲起來，又跑到第二排去了。"],["郭部長智輝：不會啊，因為現在第一排沒有人。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在問第一排的問題，你不要閃躲，現在賴總統已經清楚的說要大舉採購美國的天然氣，對不對？剛才你說已經盤點過了，請問我們的天然氣大概要買多少？目前我們的天然氣跟美國買的比例是多少，你知道？"],["郭部長智輝：三成。"],["張委員啓楷：其實才10%而已，那你現在要提高到多少？不是你所講的三成，目前只有10%。你現在盤點過了，現在大概要跟美國買多少？總統說要你大舉去買，要買多少？"],["郭部長智輝：確實如你所說的，我們目前跟美國買的，因為市場價格的問題、成本的問題……"],["張委員啓楷：你要買多少？"],["郭部長智輝：將來就是20%至30%。"],["張委員啓楷：所以要增加一倍到兩倍？"],["郭部長智輝：也不是說幾倍啦！就是我們根據需求，如果我們有辦法從美國買，現在對我們有一個優勢就是……為什麼過去我們沒有從美國買？因為美國離我們太遠了，但是現在新的條件是這樣的，從阿拉斯加一艘船送到臺灣來只要10天而已，而且不會經過中國的東海地區，所以對我們來講這是非常好的選項。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你今天表現很好，你到第一線來講的這個非常具體啊！我們本來從美國買的天然氣只占從全世界各國買的所有天然氣的10%，現在大幅增加到20%至30%，這個很重要。另外更具體的是，你剛才說我們已經跟阿拉斯加的天然氣公司簽了投資意向書，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["張委員啓楷：那天我有特別問你相關金額，他們說光是管線就要400億美金，你說不只那個錢，還包括要一起開採對不對？所以……"],["郭部長智輝：開採可能要擴大嘛！針對這個部分，我們是參與這個計畫，至於詳細的細節，因為我不是那個單位……"],["張委員啓楷：你那天有參加嘛！現在的計畫是除了要買很多天然氣之外，這個開發計畫一共要花400億，包括管線和開採嘛！400億美金的金額很大，所以我們會負擔多少？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第一排喔，要具體一點喔！不要躲到第二排去了。"],["郭部長智輝：現在還在談，就如你所說的，這麼大的金額，我們當然要審慎具體的評估，然後我們投資是根據我們將來採購的量，這也有關係啦！因為你是股東，你的影響程度有多高，那你買的價格就有差別，我想委員應該很清楚，你是財經專家，你一定很了解，投資和報酬率是我們的關鍵。針對這一部分，我想委員應該是非常的清楚，我們沒辦法在這幾天就決定以後幾十年的工作，這是不可能的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：媒體本來報導在440億美金當中，我們可能會占一半，這是還沒有經過估算。"],["郭部長智輝：如果是這樣，我可以馬上跟你回應這個問題，絕對不會占一半。"],["張委員啓楷：不會那麼多啦！可是包括管線跟開採我們都會參加就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：我們……"],["張委員啓楷：到時候要給我們一份評估報告。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是股東嘛！我們會想說如果參與是股東，然後股東可以買到什麼好的價格、我的ROI到底是多少，這是非常重要的關鍵，對經濟部來講，怎麼樣提出一個福國利民的政策來做投資，這是我們的基本關鍵，這一點跟委員報告一下。"],["張委員啓楷：所以到時候財務報告要給大家，好不好？要估算啦，不要丟太多錢、賠太多錢，這樣也不行，我們現在是鼓勵要去投資啦！"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：另外一個問題，我覺得這是目前很重要的，剛剛講到天然氣，部長，你有沒有想過這段時間要降低我們對美國的逆差有一個很重要的，其實除了天然氣以外，就是核電喔！連美國AIT的處長都直接跟我們講了，他們願意提供他們的技術跟服務來幫我們，對不對？而且這個金額很大，這方面又是安全的，以美國和日本為例，美國現在都大舉在用核電了，對不對？我們可以利用這個機會啊，我們現在如果發展核電，第一個就是按照他們的處長谷立言所講的，谷立言講的第一個重點在於核電是比較穩定的，第二個是便宜的，對不對？這樣你就不用漲電價，還可以降電價啊！還可以兼顧第三個，現在剛好要降低這個逆差，你應該好好思考這個問題。"],["郭部長智輝：對於所有新的能源科技，我們都會多方評估，針對您剛才所說核能的部分，我們還是秉持三個基本原則，也就是全國國人有共識，核廢料可以處理，而且是安全的，在這三個條件之下，我們不排除任何新的科技。"],["張委員啓楷：除了穩定，電價又低，不只不用漲電價，還可以降電價。第三個，美國已經主動……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們沒有排斥……"],["張委員啓楷：可以把它列為一個方向好好去談，第三個最重要啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有排斥。"],["張委員啓楷：現在可以大幅降低這個逆差，我們的關稅就不用這麼高了，這個比買很多天然氣都有用喔！部長你現在是說列為考慮對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不反對任何新的能源科技，我們不會反對，我們會評估，您剛才所指示的我們會評估。"],["張委員啓楷：我再問一個更具體的，這幾天一定有很多人在問你關於聯電和格羅方德兩家要聯親的事情，我問的是非常直接的，你要在第一線，不要跑到第二排去了。有吹哨者直接來這邊提供很重要的訊息，他說經濟部有一個已經退休的前官員叫做廖尉君，他在促成這件事情。部長，你認識這個人嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不認識。"],["張委員啓楷：你不認識廖尉君？"],["郭部長智輝：我是去年5月20日才加入經濟部，所以這一位我不認識。"],["張委員啓楷：吹哨者講今年3月份格羅方德的高層有來到臺灣，你跟這個高層有見過面嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：確定沒有？3月。"],["郭部長智輝：當然沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：你想一下喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我在國會不能亂講，就是沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：你跟格羅方德任何的人沒有接觸，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，OK！5月份馬上就到了，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你會去參加這一場聯電跟格羅方德的聯婚嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，傳說的東西，您認為它的機率有多大？"],["張委員啓楷：你又躲到第二線去，你要到第一排啦！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我跟您講……"],["張委員啓楷：醜媳婦總是要見公婆，現在已經4月，5月馬上就要翻牌了，這個也不需要否認，如果真的有的話，你就要坦白的承認。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是不確定的訊息，您應該問聯電有沒有這樣的訊息，基本上，如果他們有意願，一定會送到我們經濟部投資業務相關部門，經過投審會審議。到目前為止，我們沒有收到這個投資意向，這是第一件事情；第二個，這是個傳聞，不予置評；第三個，我5月份會不會去美國，我們行政院整體的運作是動態的，到目前為止，我沒有收到這個訊息。"],["張委員啓楷：你5月份本來要去美國參加「2025選擇美國投資高峰會」，這行程可能有異動，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：這不見得，到目前為止……"],["張委員啓楷：有預定要去，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：因為碰到關稅的問題……"],["張委員啓楷：本來預定要去，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：國家會整體的考量，這個是動態的部分，到目前為止，我沒有收到訊息。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，民眾為什麼會關心聯電，就是二哥有沒有要去幫二哥，之前護國神山是大哥，已經去幫英特爾，這次我們的二哥會不會聯電變成「美聯電」？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，如果要做這種投資策略的討論，我們可以另外找時間，好不好？我可以非常正確的告訴你，因為我以前在研究所教書就是教策略管理，所以我可以告訴你這個是不可能的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，民眾要知道聯電這三個事情，第一個，會不會因為大哥護國神山去了之後，二哥又去？聯電去了有三個大的影響，現在不是假設性的問題，如果它真的去，要了解的是它規模很大，是一個半導體的產業鏈……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是傳言，我不予評論啦！如果我們要討論學術的研究，我可以另外找時間跟您討論。"],["張委員啓楷：這不是學術啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對，所以我的意思是……"],["張委員啓楷：你作為經濟部長，要非常關心這三個問題。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對傳言的部分不予評論；我5月份會不會去美國，要等到行政院的指示，因為這是動態的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你不要跑到第二排，你要到第一排面對問題，聯電的問題至少要面對三個。"],["郭部長智輝：我還是一樣，第一排……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，聯電問題要面對三個問題，第一個，聯電跑去美國變「美聯電」的時候，我們的半導體整個產業會不會受到什麼影響？這是要評估的，作為經濟部部長，當然要回答這個問題啊！第二個，對我們半導體發展的營業額到底影響有多大？第三個是人才，去了一定會帶一堆人去！這三個評估好了之後，才能夠知道要怎麼應對，要不然你永遠在第二排，好不好？至少做這三個評估。在5月份我們見真章，看你有沒有去，好不好？","不好意思，主席再給我一點時間請教國發會主委。主委剛才有提到你們之前有做這個評估，最低可能是10%，最高可能到35%，如果真的有做這個評估，你們會不會太樂觀？行政院長怎麼叫我們安心睡，完全沒有預想到可能有35%、32%嗎？第二個，柯總召還講……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的版本有到32%，在那一天的記者會，副院長有說明得很清楚，我們的版本最高到35%，如果您有看當天的記者會……"],["張委員啓楷：如果是32%，叫我們安心睡，行政院到底是不是腦袋壞掉？不只是無能問題，32%會造成現在整個臺灣……一個海嘯來，大家焦頭爛額、驚惶失措，你們會預估到35%、32%，那時候怎麼可以叫我們安心睡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前沒有驚惶失措。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再往前推，行政院長叫我們安心睡的前幾天，歐盟還有全世界多少國家已經在跟美國談了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，您不能這樣講，我是建議您不要製造社會的恐慌，政府積極正面的在解決問題，我們也的確有方案在解決問題，如果您對這個方案有意見，可以協助我們強化，但是不應該一直鼓勵民眾要恐慌，這是我認為大家要有共識的。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在共赴國難，如果你處理得很好，當然就不會恐慌啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果您認為哪裡不好，應該提出來。"],["張委員啓楷：現在問題是應對的方式完全失準，叫大家安心睡，民眾才會恐慌啊！是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，您是很知名的財經專家，如果您也跟大家一起來共同努力，我相信國家會更好。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我覺得很重要的是，剛剛提到的天然氣採購的方向要整體盤整，我覺得現在最重要可以馬上降低逆差的，其實就是核電，對不對？大幅降低，關稅就可以降，而且電又穩定，電價又會往下可以不要漲，是不是？要去爭取這個，這才是我們的王牌啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：剛才經濟部已經有對這件事回應。"],["張委員啓楷：國發會的看法怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們不負責電廠的部分，所以沒有辦法表達意見。"],["張委員啓楷：以整體的國家發展，「電」對你們來講很重要，而且你們兩位都是重中之重，我們談得好不好，就看你出去的王牌好不好喔！現在天然氣買了，對不對？你們好好去考慮一下，也跟賴清德總統建議，去談的時候，把核電廠放進去，這絕對是一張好牌，人民會幫你們鼓掌的，電可以穩定、電價又可以降不要漲、美國又主動開口、逆差又可以降低，為什麼不做呢？一起努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時42分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-7","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對"},{"start":189.335,"end":202.59,"text":"曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符"},{"start":203.325,"end":217.856,"text":"一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小 避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套"},{"start":220.618,"end":247.154,"text":"因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定"},{"start":249.132,"end":269.758,"text":"你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部有報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的"},{"start":270.498,"end":289.877,"text":"那你們就是自己審計部的職權 你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用 該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫 用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高 他就不用剔除 也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列 是不是這樣子"},{"start":290.878,"end":306.585,"text":"不是 那個跟委員報告 其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛 你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛 你講一個理由出來是 跟委員報告就是我們在給"},{"start":308.305,"end":334.235,"text":"勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容即使來來來來反反之相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為你們一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候"},{"start":334.795,"end":359.016,"text":"你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失"},{"start":360.117,"end":367.519,"text":"你們審計部 你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下 關關相護呢委員 這個違法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高 當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬 這合理嗎 這對嗎"},{"start":387.059,"end":404.844,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法"},{"start":411.461,"end":418.829,"text":"辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責 去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品"},{"start":431.544,"end":447.45,"text":"加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任"},{"start":448.57,"end":458.576,"text":"而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道 這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院 你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢?"},{"start":467.287,"end":487.396,"text":"根據這個違法這麼的明確影帶製作影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途跟勞工的就業這個會有在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權你的審計權現在等於是"},{"start":489.946,"end":509.291,"text":"放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任"},{"start":520.54,"end":535.638,"text":"你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了"},{"start":536.767,"end":551.442,"text":"我們審計部始終如一啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如一連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是"},{"start":557.688,"end":573.1,"text":"你們要硬起來 這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的全責啊那為什麼謝義勇就是許明春沒有事"},{"start":586.681,"end":590.864,"text":"對 但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛 你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去跟審計長報告 今天在委員會裡面"},{"start":602.473,"end":608.396,"text":"我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除 該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後又不追繳還要用公務的基金然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好你先請回接下來我要問這個勞動部部長"},{"start":629.861,"end":648.532,"text":"部長頭號的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計的我已經要求他們應該要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列"},{"start":654.758,"end":674.875,"text":"我在問你的立場 部長 不要閃躲你在外面去講話的時候 演講的時候 慷慨激昂 民主側翼來到委員會的時候 要你表態的時候 你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲 我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定從一開始"},{"start":677.237,"end":699.397,"text":"從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理對不對如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳"},{"start":700.437,"end":725.368,"text":"對 你會依法辦理這是法律的 就變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外 接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項"},{"start":726.707,"end":753.573,"text":"而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來"},{"start":755.134,"end":778.671,"text":"第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項"},{"start":781.226,"end":809.989,"text":"那還有什麼呢?有補助新年就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有補助公部門擴大金融計畫嗎?有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本"},{"start":811.035,"end":826.617,"text":"因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因關稅不只過大他的業別也不同他這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同"},{"start":827.478,"end":844.231,"text":"所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的"},{"start":847.595,"end":872.28,"text":"我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救阿基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊沒有假的為什麼是假的150億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比它多這就是假的啊跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況"},{"start":874.921,"end":889.285,"text":"所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有 其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向 現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎 還沒有定案嗎"},{"start":891.482,"end":901.869,"text":"因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎"},{"start":922.383,"end":945.528,"text":"不只是不會要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北"},{"start":945.868,"end":950.412,"text":"我知道 還要去因地制宜所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼"},{"start":974.491,"end":1001.968,"text":"所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行規劃如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕"},{"start":1003.257,"end":1028.076,"text":"所以還是從救安基金來嗎 救安跟救保對 那你的救安基金 那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你 因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬 你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬 大家都希望 部長 你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把它追繳回來 讓救安基金更充實"},{"start":1028.897,"end":1040.91,"text":"跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時17分）謝謝主席，我要先請審計部的李順保副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：副審計長，你好。我想就教你，審計法第二十一條的規定是什麼？"],["李副審計長順保：審計法第二十一條主要規定審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出，得剔除追繳之。"],["王委員育敏：得剔除追繳之嘛！"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：請問你們根據審計法第二十一條去認定它違法，需不需要經過司法機關，還是審計部就可以進行認定？"],["李副審計長順保：要看個別個案的案情，像有些案情涉及刑事責任，刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理，最後提起公訴，然後進入法院的審理。因為如果它有涉及財務責任，相關的案情會影響最後財務責任的範圍跟金額；另外一部分是監察院如果已經立案調查，那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定。"],["王委員育敏：過去你在監督中央跟地方時，有沒有由審計部進行認定的？"],["李副審計長順保：有。"],["王委員育敏：有嘛！"],["李副審計長順保：另外，跟委員特別報告定審計法第二十一條這個條文的背景，當初是在民國60年的時候定的，當時因為對個別公務人員的行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全，當時沒有相關的法制，但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理，其實在實務上會有很多困難，因為剔除去處理的話，根據審計法第七十八條規定是要限期追繳，也就是說，我們課責機關，因為我們的追繳對象是要機關去追繳，限期是三個月，機關要作出行政處分，現在的法制，這個行政處分到個人、到公務人員身上，他會循各種救濟程序，包括保訓會，包括訴願、行政法院訴訟，那就會拖很長，實際上就會有這個問題……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們就變成不敢使用剔除嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：不是不敢使用，很多案情非常單純，我們還是會使用。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我就要直接問你了，針對這一次整個就安基金違法使用七千多萬，你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定未符，也就是違反了原來的使用規定，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：曾經用過這個文字。"],["王委員育敏：不是曾經，你們一直到昨天4月8號下午2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是「用途未符」，一直都是這樣子，但是在4點37分的時候，我們收到的報告突然就改成了「關聯性不高」，你們這是不是就是官官相護，想要大事化小、避重就輕，是要幫勞動部解套？因為如果是用途未符的話，就是依據審計法第二十一條，他已經違反法令，所以依法你們應該是要剔除、應該是要追繳，你們過去都是用這個，為什麼現在突然變成關聯性不高？關聯性不高有沒有違法呢？有沒有違法使用呢？用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定？知不知道這個名稱被改變了？你們審計部的報告是誰下令的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，沒有誰下令，是我們剛剛……"],["王委員育敏：在短短的時間改變喔！這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，這個是因為我們在……"],["王委員育敏：誰改的嘛？你改的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有，我們是重新再核對，包括說我們跟……"],["王委員育敏：勞動部要求你改的？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有、沒有、沒有，跟委員報告，沒有，這是我們自己來做處理的。"],["王委員育敏：那你們就是自己自降審計部的職權啊，該引用的沒引用，該剔除的不剔除，然後幫勞動部開脫，用一個關聯性不高，所以關聯性不高，他就不用剔除也不用追繳，所以就可以重新再由公務預算裡面來編列，是不是這樣子？"],["李副審計長順保：不是，跟委員報告，其實我們修正……"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼要改變嘛，你告訴我，用途不符就是用途不符，就是沒有按照規定，你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛？理由何在，你講一個理由出來。"],["李副審計長順保：是，跟委員報告，就是我們在給勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部的聲復內容，其實來來返返相關的文字，這兩個文字都有用到啦，包括用途不符，因為……"],["王委員育敏：你們一直都是用用途規定未符喔，其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的，而且你們還說要剔除追繳喔，你們回去調錄影帶，去年底你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候是說要剔除而且要追繳，並且要追究相關人員的責任，結果到今天委員會正式要專案討論的時候，你們縮了，你們變成是關聯性不高，也沒有剔除、也沒有追繳相關的用詞，在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了，被消失！你們審計部本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權，為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下、官官相護呢？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員，以這個……"],["王委員育敏：違法的事證這麼地明確，連謝宜容本人都已經承認犯罪，包含在這7,000萬裡面，結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高，當事人都承認違法，你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬，這合理嗎？這對嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，就是個案涉及刑責部分，如果以後確定判決……"],["王委員育敏：我還要跟你追究另外一個，就是演唱會的支出，這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢？這個涉案的事情這麼地明顯，完全違反使用規定，你這個也要用關聯性不高，這是澈澈底底的違法，辦個人演唱會跟就安基金的使用，這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎？這不是違法不當使用嗎？為什麼不引用審計法第二十一條去究責、去剔除，連這一筆你都不敢剔除，你說其他有一些文宣品加減跟勞動部的業務有關，請問這一筆呢？這整個花的都是在做演唱會的錢啊，為什麼這一筆審計部不敢追究？這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除、用追繳去追究個人責任？而且這一筆你有送司法嗎？有送檢調嗎？有送監察院嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，這個有送監察院。"],["王委員育敏：這個有送監察院？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：既然都送監察院了，在你們審計的權責裡面，為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除？"],["李副審計長順保：這個我們會等……"],["王委員育敏：這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢？"],["李副審計長順保：這個部分……"],["王委員育敏：違法這麼地明確，影帶製作、影像拍攝，這些東西跟就安基金的使用用途、跟勞工的就業，在你們審計的看法裡面，這會有關聯嗎？這完全不關聯吧！所以你的行政權、你的審計權現在等於是放著不敢用嘛，如果按照你剛剛的描述，就是你要等監察院認定，你要等檢調認定，但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除，有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊，哪有在看司法機關跟監察院的，沒有啊！那你這是雙標耶！"],["李副審計長順保：我們……"],["王委員育敏：怎麼會遇到這件事情就轉彎呢？"],["李副審計長順保：不會，不會轉彎。"],["王委員育敏：不會轉彎，要不要剔除？"],["李副審計長順保：涉及司法的部分，最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度去追究責任，你們就是輕輕放下嘛，你沒有上面的壓力嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員，沒有。"],["王委員育敏：有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦？怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬，到現在整個都縮回去了？"],["李副審計長順保：我們審計部始終如一啦，從頭到尾，包括……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有始終如一，連報告都偷偷修改那個字眼了，什麼關聯性不高，你們審計部……我希望審計部，各部會有各部會的權責，做錯事情，該糾正的、該是你審計部的、該去剔除的、該去追繳的，這是你的責任啊！"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：你們要硬起來，這個368.7萬我要求審計部要去剔除跟追繳，你們回去好好再審議一次，這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動，我覺得這有問題啊，不要讓人家覺得你想要護航前部長，我也不希望後面有人下令去做這樣的事情，因為追繳一定會追繳到許銘春個人的責任，這個是他的權責，為什麼謝宜容有事，許銘春沒有事？"],["李副審計長順保：報告委員，這個部分我們都已經修正決算了。"],["王委員育敏：但你沒有引用審計法第二十一條去剔除跟追繳嘛，我現在在講的是這個嘛，你不敢動用你的審計權嘛，這就是問題啊！這個部分我希望副審計長回去好好跟你們審計長報告，今天在委員會裡面，我就是要揪出有這樣的事情，我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除，該追繳的要追繳，因為這是國家的錢，好嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員育敏：不容個人去濫用之後又不追繳，還要用公務基金來墊付，這個全民也不會同意的。好，你先請回。"],["李副審計長順保：好，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我要問勞動部部長，部長，同樣的問題我問你，許銘春開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除、追繳，追究個人責任？"],["洪部長申翰：剔除與否，這當然是審計的……"],["王委員育敏：我已經要求他們應該要剔除，站在勞動部的立場呢？這一筆錢，你的就安基金就這樣被濫用掉了嗎？要不要去追繳？"],["洪部長申翰：我們從審計這邊得到的是修正減列。"],["王委員育敏：我在問你的立場，部長，不要閃躲……"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有閃……"],["王委員育敏：你在外面講話的時候、演講的時候慷慨激昂、民主側翼，來到委員會的時候、要你表態的時候，你都支支吾吾。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員，我沒有閃躲，我從頭到尾……"],["王委員育敏：該不該追繳？一句話。"],["洪部長申翰：我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定，從一開始……"],["王委員育敏：你勞動部沒有自己的態度啊。"],["洪部長申翰：大家現在引用的是從審計部的報告來的，我們從一開始、從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定、遵照審計部的判定。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果審計部說要剔除追繳，你就會依法辦理，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：如果審計部判定剔除的話，當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳。"],["王委員育敏：對，你會依法辦理？"],["洪部長申翰：這就變成是法律對於機關的要求了。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要的是你這句話。","另外，接下來我要問你高關稅底下的衝擊，高關稅是現在勞工非常擔心的問題，因為它衝擊的範圍可能會像是2008年的金融海嘯那麼大，但是現在勞動部端出來的措施，我只看到一項，而且這一項裡面，你們的僱用安定措施裡面只有補助橡膠製造、機械設備、其他運輸工具還有零件製造業，為什麼是設定這幾個行業？你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差額50%。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們的相關的措施，不是只有這一項而已，當然不是。"],["王委員育敏：還有什麼，你可不可以告訴大家？來。"],["洪部長申翰：第一個當然現在包括，如果有發生減班休息，我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電再出發，我們現在也在調整跟檢討，包括這些相關的適用範圍、包括適用的對象，包括是不是要做相關的加碼。所以現在當然不是只有僱用安定措施的這一項。"],["王委員育敏：你們對外講的就是這一項。"],["洪部長申翰：我們對外講並不是只講這一項。"],["王委員育敏：還有什麼呢？"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛說的包括……"],["王委員育敏：你有補助青年就業計畫嗎？我也沒看到啊。"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["王委員育敏：有補助公部門擴大進用計畫嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。我們其實在……"],["王委員育敏：有比照新冠疫情嗎？2019年新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，其實我們現在相關的措施，包括對青年的、包括對失業勞工、包括對可能會減班休息的，我們計畫都列出來，我們現在是希望要再規劃一個因應關稅的版本。因為比方新冠疫情的時候，主要針對的是服務業的勞工，可是這一次可能因應關稅……"],["王委員育敏：更擴大。"],["洪部長申翰：不只是擴大，他的業別也不同。這次可能是製造業、是出口業，跟過去是服務業的狀況不同，所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本。"],["王委員育敏：新冠疫情的時候是556億的就安基金，加150億的就業保險基金，總共是706億。現在你說高關稅衝擊你會擴大，比新冠疫情的措施還要多，結果現在是150億，請問你是怎麼做的？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，我們目前現在是先匡150億，但如果還需要再擴大，目前以就安基金跟就保基金……"],["王委員育敏：所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊！"],["洪部長申翰：沒有假的，為什麼是假的？"],["王委員育敏：150億為什麼可以做到新冠疫情的706億的事情，而且還比他多，這就是假的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["王委員育敏：虛的。"],["洪部長申翰：其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況。"],["王委員育敏：所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嘛！你說有，其實都只是一個方向而已……"],["洪部長申翰：不是只是方向……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有具體的措施。"],["洪部長申翰：現在這些措施我們正在規劃因應關稅的版本，這都是現在進行式。"],["王委員育敏：所以還沒有定案嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況，所以我跟委員說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同……"],["王委員育敏：所以還沒有具體方案出來，你現在還在研擬。"],["洪部長申翰：不是沒有具體方案，有！但是這裡面的情境跟參數，我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做，要因地制宜的設定。"],["王委員育敏：我就問你，這一次因應2025年高關稅的衝擊，你的方案會完全比照2019年新冠疫情，有的一個都不會少，而且還會再加碼，是這樣子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不只是不會，還要能夠用得上的，因為當時真的有些情境是不同的，比方說，當時很多是服務業，現在有很多是製造業。所以當我們要來協助製造業，可能會受影響的是失業勞工，希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候，這也需要看當地，因為你很難叫一個臺南的勞工到臺北，所以還要去因地制宜……"],["王委員育敏：我知道。現在部長，你要安勞工的心，所以勞工會想要知道現在勞動部因應高關稅衝擊的補助規模，會不會至少比照2019年新冠疫情這些所有的措施，一個都不會少？只會多不會少。"],["洪部長申翰：措施都在。我們現在是正在規劃、精進跟因應關稅的版本方案。"],["王委員育敏：所以都會有，我可以這樣講嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：甚至如果需要的話，我們還會再加碼。"],["王委員育敏：所以都會有，我可以這樣講嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，這些措施都在、都有，這些措施都在、這些措施都在，我們現在是要再做因地制宜，包括因應接下來情境的更精準設定，甚至需要的話，包括擴大對象跟加碼，這都是現在正在進行規劃的事情。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我就問你，如果你150億不夠的話，你下一個階段的錢要從哪裡來？"],["洪部長申翰：目前確實包括就保跟就安基金目前還有一些餘裕。"],["王委員育敏：所以還是從就安基金來嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就安跟就保。"],["王委員育敏：對，那你的就安基金那七千多萬的追繳就更重要了，我提醒你，因為你那邊虧掉了七千多萬，你現在是四百多億，比之前的新冠疫情的556億還要少，這七千多萬……大家都希望部長在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情，當然要去把它追繳回來讓就安基金更充實。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，要跟個人的追繳，像我們是行政部門，我們也需要有法律上面的依據。"],["王委員育敏：當然。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊……"],["洪部長申翰：不會。"],["王委員育敏：就是不想去做。"],["洪部長申翰：不會，當然不會。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","我們更正一下，洪孟楷委員質詢完，我們休息10分鐘，要上洗手間的自行前往。","接續我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","盧縣一","洪孟楷","王正旭","黃秀芳","陳瑩","劉建國","廖先翔","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱若華","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00005"}}},{"id":"159944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcea4f001273da1d29aa71339fff88aef016e4b1f34053c89deb919a22b82dabb035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:19:20 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人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員范雲等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查；如第十至十七案未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-09","start_time":"2025-04-09T10:19:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-09T10:32:41+08:00","duration":801,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.286593750000002,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.21034375,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.244093750000001,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.871593750000002,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.07346875,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.66784375,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.70159375,"end":111.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.71846875000001,"end":136.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.00096875,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.00909375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.02596875,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.14409375,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.88659375,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.97409375,"end":175.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.21034375000002,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.62721875,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.27096875,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.96471875,"end":286.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.99034375,"end":287.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.59346875,"end":288.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.07846875,"end":290.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.93909375000004,"end":325.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.08971875000003,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.05534375,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.15659375,"end":330.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.84409375,"end":345.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.83346875,"end":345.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.98534375,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.96409375,"end":366.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.38284375,"end":369.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.61034375,"end":372.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.13721875000005,"end":374.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.22971875,"end":381.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.15284375000005,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.55346875000004,"end":403.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.40909375,"end":390.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.98909375000005,"end":405.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.40221875000003,"end":411.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.57471875000005,"end":409.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.20721875000004,"end":412.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.43909375000004,"end":412.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.79346875000005,"end":412.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.84409375,"end":413.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.01284375,"end":423.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.07034375,"end":423.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.32346875,"end":424.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.50471875000005,"end":424.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.52159375,"end":424.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.53846875000005,"end":424.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.70721875000004,"end":424.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.72409375,"end":424.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.77471875000003,"end":425.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.27659375,"end":438.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.00034375,"end":443.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.29909375000005,"end":453.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.96846875000006,"end":467.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.02971875000003,"end":467.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.99159375000005,"end":490.0134687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謝謝 有請部長好 有請鄭部長好 鄭署長"},{"start":21.102,"end":48.499,"text":"好 謝謝部長今天我們在修這個運動彩券發行條例21條第21條之一其實多半啊所有的委員大家大致都有一樣的一個想法都希望這個部分能夠更好沒有什麼太大的問題但是有幾點呢我想就叫今天我們對於幾個運動賽事我們非常關注的一個相關事項想來做請問我想剛剛前面幾個委員呢對於紐西蘭女足隊在這一次受邀來台跟台灣女足舉行的一個友誼賽"},{"start":49.46,"end":78.615,"text":"大家都非常關心也非常關注到底後續該怎麼樣去進行那我想在這一次我們台灣曾經舉辦過2001年亞洲盃女足賽2005年東亞盃資格賽2002年陳水扁總統還提出了說足球元年要向世界盃邁進我想這一場友誼賽真的是讓我們都覺得這是利益良善但是在這一次的國際體育的交流機會連場地都被嫌棄剛剛我想部長也講了一個蠻重的話"},{"start":79.355,"end":103.945,"text":"那我覺得這個丟臉呢讓大家看到台灣喔台灣竟然會在因為這件事情上被看到我們也覺得是非常不捨但是這個場地上喔到底現在場地我們該怎麼樣後續的一個檢討我想這個是我們應該要來努力的齁那剛剛署長有提到齁每年有編列這樣子的公建費用那有大概一億多相關的縣市政府有來申請台中市有嗎"},{"start":106.121,"end":129.494,"text":"包委員台中是已經有一個台中一個台中的一個足球園區園區對不對因為我們也正已經宣布正在要處理這個足球園區那我想是說台中有在這樣積極面對這個足球園區的興建當中但是我們現階段也看到一個問題就是我們到底有多少標準的場地有幾座是不是只有"},{"start":130.254,"end":153.982,"text":"足協說是台灣國際賽事標準場地的有兩座台北田技場跟高雄國家體育場是嗎?包圍員A級的部分是那我想這個體育署過去推動台灣足球六年的一個計畫編列43億希望足球可以在世界展露我們相關的一些選手讓他們能夠有所發展成為一個真正的一個平台"},{"start":154.702,"end":173.494,"text":"那我想台灣足球提升到100名內呢這個是我們的目標那推動企業足球呢辦職業的一個方式運動發展我想鼓勵各個學校籌組足球隊那新建六座合乎國際標準這個計畫已經結束了因為那個時候是編列在2018到2023成效為何抱怨這個計畫在男主的部分沒有達到目標"},{"start":181.737,"end":190.76,"text":"對 審計部也有說截至民國112年底累積執行數是20億多那執行率為47.2我國男子足球是154名2023年所以為達成整個總體的目標花了20幾億推動企業足球的執行率也只有35.18%國家隊的選訓只有36.49"},{"start":209.545,"end":223.126,"text":"我們所編列的這麼多的一個部分的一個預算最後很可惜那各校學校籌組足球隊的比例現在為何目標是幾成包委員我們在基層的隊伍數喔其實有在這過去這"},{"start":225.144,"end":241.211,"text":"八年有大量的成長特別在國小及國中的部分所以我們持續在繼續在推動基層足球的發展署長我們跟部長我們都非常的關注這一類的一個相關賽事那現在我們看到包括這一次所編列我們看到這個計畫審計部都講了"},{"start":243.192,"end":257.999,"text":"是完全不符合我們的一個目標的那你也看到我剛剛所提出的數據我們覺得還有很大的一個進步空間到底該如何再強而有力的而不是只是編列預算供市政府來是不是後續有更積極的一個作為這是我們所關注的"},{"start":258.639,"end":284.413,"text":"當然今天我也很關注這個113學年度國小足球盃世界盃的一個問題後續我們會再來追蹤這一類的事情我想網路都在發酵那我也很感謝署長有在關注這些網路議題署長並不是只坐在辦公室網路的相關議題我相信你都有掌握到我們都在會後再繼續來討論今天時間有限但是我想我要再跟另外再提的是我們這個賽車選手劉鈞妹"},{"start":287.028,"end":308.97,"text":"部長知道嗎部長女選手女選手這是我們教育部有編列的67號那我想要講的是說不要只說我幫劉君妹講話啦因為我剛好認識到她對於這個賽事的認真那所有的非亞奧運我們都應該關注但就劉君妹這個部分我要講先謝謝署長"},{"start":310.712,"end":329.992,"text":"在過去去年四月的時候有幫忙協助但是部長他現在仍在荷蘭參加FIN女子公路賽車世界錦標賽是唯一亞洲代表唯一2024年是唯二2025年是唯一那這一次我們能夠給予什麼協助 體育署"},{"start":331.872,"end":349.428,"text":"保元在目前的架構下因為中華賽車會本身也有它內部的問題所以我們在這部分目前的確我委員所期待我們目前是沒有辦法提供太多的協助除了在媒合平台之外去年我們辦了一個記者會啦盡可能去幫忙曝光啦"},{"start":349.548,"end":366.154,"text":"那現階段他在所謂的一個募資平台自己去募資我們看了是很不捨不管是足球不管是我們賽車我們都希望這些選手甚至是非亞奧運的電競選手這些都有辦法給予更大的一個幫助所以我希望部長"},{"start":367.832,"end":381.628,"text":"亞洲唯一代表出賽非同小可台灣不能做事不管教育部體育署應該幫忙協助尤其是體育部未來還要作為運動部的一個成立"},{"start":382.989,"end":402.396,"text":"報委員的確在這部分我們有考量到不只是劉鈞妹還有包括像電競這些職業選手其實我們在運動部也謝謝委員給我們的一些提示我們有準備在運動部成立的時候我們有一個計畫針對這樣子類型的職業選手我們希望跳過特定體育團體我們直接給予他一個協助那這部分我們正在籌劃當中這個籌劃"},{"start":404.137,"end":424.867,"text":"從去年您就跟我說了包委員的確我們在現行的架構真的補助辦法是不是能夠再加快這個我要拜託了好不好謝謝署長我想所有的眾望所歸都希望你能夠趕快完成運動部如果即將掛牌以後到底目前運動部規劃在哪裡有沒有機會來台中聽說在高雄真的還假的"},{"start":426.308,"end":443.461,"text":"包委員目前行政院還沒有做任何的核對你的考量點是什麼有沒有考量點可以講一下包委員就像我們身為首長一天到晚要跑來立法院一樣所以希望車程能夠在20分鐘之內是比較對我們來講那高雄一定不行嗎"},{"start":444.361,"end":467.278,"text":"那我建議第二啦就是台中啦台中比高雄還要近台北多一點啦幫委員這個決定權在行政院上面好啦這我不為難你啦但是我要另外再說我們現在國訓中心的室內網球場地網球比賽場地約略有三種紅土草地跟硬地國訓中心在室內蓋人工草地的網球場問題引起各界划然這個你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":468.086,"end":496.817,"text":"包委員這個原因起因是因為在過去國訓在起這個案子的時候有徵詢過協會那只有軟網協會有意願進到中心來培訓那他們國際的賽事大部分現階段都是用人工這個我都知道這個相關的過程經過盧彥勳的協助之後我們目前也做了一些工程上的一些變更但我們還是要記得雖然是當時只有他們所提出可是網球四大網球公差賽分別是法網"},{"start":497.697,"end":525.803,"text":"他是紅土戶外溫布敦是草地戶外美澳網是硬地可戶外跟室內國際四大網球公開賽跟一般網球的比賽有多少在人工草地上來做比賽所以這個部分上我覺得我們也應該在興建的時候不只是詢問現況到底現實狀況怎麼樣跟國際賽事的趨勢怎麼樣我們也應該好好的考量所以在這個部分上我們是應該做檢討對吧"},{"start":527.603,"end":537.135,"text":"我想運動員最怕受傷喔那我想這個部分鞋子對運動員來說也是非常重要不同的比賽場地穿不同的鞋所以在這一次不管是紐西蘭"},{"start":538.952,"end":564.563,"text":"這次的友誼賽停賽我們支持支持停賽為什麼所有的選手都不能夠因為賽事的這個規格場地不符合而造成選手受傷可能造成不可逆甚至整個選手的生涯可是我們希望後續的檢討跟事前的維護以及剛剛說的SOP訂定甚至是足協相關的人士應不應該要做一個懲罰太足"},{"start":566.864,"end":584.493,"text":"這個都應該要由我們的主管機關幫忙協助去督導這個部分我希望你們能夠關注最後我想請問這個學生營養午餐法剛剛我們有提到這個我們現階段剛剛有委員提到學校衛生法23條3基改食品"},{"start":585.313,"end":609.674,"text":"基改食品我們現在都很關注包括網路上有人在討論基改食品跟非基改食品它的營養可能達到幾乎一樣但是後面的風險我們有沒有不可控相關的一些在實驗上在老鼠上的一個實驗的確有增加腫瘤但人體實驗上有提出依據沒有相關的明顯的一個顯著問題"},{"start":612.276,"end":629.978,"text":"但是有風險對家長來說這三個字就很可怕所以我想部長剛剛所提到的從一開始依法執行到後面開始帶到所謂的現階段的科學並沒有直接的去直指基改食品有一定的問題"},{"start":631.099,"end":659.294,"text":"這些話語都會讓我們作為家長有所擔心尤其國際的趨勢到現階段我們對於美國的態度並不是非常強而有力我們沒有這個本錢能夠強力的去回應那更擔憂在這一次會不會有基改食品來到學生營養午餐內所以在營養午餐法裡面我們也提到了很多的問題我就叫就幾個問題來請教現階段部長您知道嗎學生學校衛生法第23條"},{"start":660.655,"end":678.3,"text":"第一高級中等學校以下班級數40班以上應至少設置營養師一人請問一下目前台灣有多少營養師在協助處理營養午餐的一個事宜佔所有學校多少百分比部長現在大概有一幅動作有600到800位"},{"start":686.008,"end":710.96,"text":"2023年9月的新聞是630名營養師協助處理這個相關營養午餐事宜還有加那個偏鄉的他可能沒有加到偏鄉但是當時的數據是不到19%的學校有營養師在這一次的營養午餐法的訂定當中我們也希望能夠把這個部分能夠明確的去訂定然後去維護營養師 學校 學生 家長"},{"start":712.04,"end":738.653,"text":"相關的一些疑慮而現行大多數都是由教師去擔任營養午餐的祕書去年3月19日我與全教產就召開了這個記者會內容談的就是一般教師兼任午餐祕書這樣的事長久以來國小老師對於兼任午餐祕書都是在做功德午餐祕書是行政工作但是卻沒有工作佳績這個部分在專法還沒完成之前這些擔任午餐祕書老師是不是能給予行政佳績部長"},{"start":743.049,"end":745.652,"text":"目前有49%是由老實監,比較多是行政職也在處理,例如台北市"},{"start":759.888,"end":774.318,"text":"怎麼樣處理是最適合現在地方政府以老實監的部分都採檢科的方式處理至於行政交集的部分上次有報告裁劃法在實施之後地方政府有很大的空間這一部分我們再看行政措施上怎麼大家一起來研商"},{"start":775.399,"end":797.037,"text":"那個召委都站起來了但是我要講啊如果你要說才化法我還是一貫的態度可以事前又事全要求地方政府幫忙協助都沒關係但是一個態度很重要能不能幫忙協助關心這一群午餐祕書是我們後續想要來關注還有剛剛說的營養午餐法以及營養午餐能夠有營養師來幫忙協助這個也希望部長能夠關注謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時19分）謝謝，有請部長、署長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長、鄭署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝部長。今天我們要修運動彩券發行條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一，其實多半的委員大家都有一樣的想法，都希望這個部分能夠更好，沒有什麼太大的問題。但是我有幾點想就教，針對幾個運動賽事當中我們非常關注的事項來做請問。剛剛前面幾個委員提到，對於紐西蘭女足隊這一次受邀來臺跟臺灣女足舉行友誼賽，大家都非常關心，也非常關注到底後續該怎麼樣去進行，我們臺灣曾經舉辦過2001年亞洲盃女足賽、2005年東亞盃資格賽，2002年陳水扁總統還提出了足球元年，要向世界盃邁進。我想這場友誼賽真的是讓我們覺得這是立意良善，但是在這一次國際體育交流的機會中，我們連場地都被嫌棄，剛剛部長也講了一個滿重的話，這次的丟臉，讓大家看到臺灣竟然是因為這件事情被看到，我們也覺得非常不捨，但是現在場地的部分我們該怎麼樣做後續的檢討，應該是我們要來努力的，剛剛署長有提到，每年有編列這樣的公建費用，大概有一億多，相關的縣市政府有來申請，臺中市有嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，臺中市已經有一個臺中足球園區正在進行中，那個是很大的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為我們已經宣布，正要處理這個足球園區，既然臺中有在積極面對這個足球園區的興建，但是我們現階段也看到一個問題，就是我們標準的場地到底有幾座？足協說臺灣符合國際賽事標準的場地有兩座，臺北田徑場跟高雄國家體育場，是嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，A級的部分是有兩座。"],["羅委員廷瑋：體育署過去有推動臺灣足球六年計畫，編列43億，讓我們相關的足球選手可以在世界有所展露，讓他們能夠有所發展，成為一個真正的平臺；將臺灣足球名次提升到100名內，是我們的目標；推動企業足球，用半職業的方式來進行運動發展；鼓勵各個學校籌組足球隊；興建六座合乎國際標準的球場等等，而這個計畫已經結束，因為那個時候是編列在2018年到2023年，請問成效為何？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個計畫在男足的部分沒有達到目標。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，審計部也有說，截至民國112年底，累積執行數是二十億多，執行率為47.2%；2023年我國男子足球的排名是154名，所以未達成總體的目標；花了二十幾億推動企業足球，執行率也只有35.18%；國家隊的選訓只有36.49%，我們編列了這麼多的預算，最後的成效卻很可惜。請問現在各級學校籌組足球隊的比例為何？目標是幾成？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們在基層的隊伍數其實在過去這8年有大量的成長，特別在國小及國中的部分，所以我們持續、繼續推動基層足球的發展。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長、署長，我們都非常關注這一類的相關賽事，現在我們看到，針對這個計畫連審計部都講了，這完全不符合我們的目標，你也看到我剛剛所提出的數據，我們覺得這還有很大的進步空間，到底該如何再強而有力的去做，而不只是編列預算供市政府來申請，是不是後續能有一個更積極的作為，這是我們所關注的。","當然今天我也很關注113學年度國小足球盃、世界盃的問題，後續我們會再來追蹤這一類的事情。我想網路都在發酵，我也很感謝署長有在關注這些網路議題，署長並不是只坐在辦公室，網路的相關議題，我相信你都有掌握，會後我們再繼續討論，畢竟今天時間有限。","另外要再提的是我們的賽車選手劉君眉，部長知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：女選手。"],["羅委員廷瑋：她在我們教育部是有編號的，第67號，我想要講的是，不要只說我在幫劉君眉講話，因為我剛好認識到他對於這個賽事的認真，所有的非亞奧運選手我們都應該關注。但就劉君眉這個部分，先謝謝署長在去年4月的幫忙、協助，但是部長，他現在人在荷蘭參加FIM女子公路賽車世界錦標賽，是唯一的亞洲代表，2024年時是唯二；2025年是唯一，請問這一次我們體育署能夠給予什麼協助？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，在目前的架構下，因為中華賽車會本身也有它內部的問題，所以我們在這部分目前的確如委員所說沒有辦法提供太多的協助，除了在媒合平臺之外。"],["羅委員廷瑋：去年我們辦了一個記者會，盡可能去幫忙曝光，現階段它在所謂的募資平臺自己去募資，我們看了是很不捨，不管是足球或賽車，我們都希望有辦法給予這些選手，甚至是非亞奧運的電競選手，更大的幫助。部長，亞洲唯一代表出賽，非同小可，臺灣不能坐視不管，教育部、體育署應該幫忙協助，尤其是體育部未來還要升格運動部。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，的確在這部分我們有考量到不只是劉君眉，還有包括像電競職業選手，謝謝委員給我們的一些提示，在運動部成立後，我們有準備一個計畫，針對這類型的職業選手，希望跳過特定的體育團體，我們直接給予協助，這部分我們正在籌劃當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個籌劃從去年您就跟我說了。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，的確我們在現行的架構下，補助辦法真的沒有辦法執行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是不是能夠再加快，這個我要拜託，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：署長，我想眾望所歸，都希望你能夠趕快完成。","那運動部掛牌以後，到底目前運動部規劃在哪裡？有沒有機會來臺中？聽說在高雄，真的還假的？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前行政院還沒有做任何的核定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你的考量點是什麼？有沒有考量點？可以講一下。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，就像我們身為首長，一天到晚要跑來立法院一樣，希望車程能夠在20分鐘之內，對我們來講是比較合適。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那高雄一定不行嘛，那我建議第二就臺中，臺中距離臺北比高雄還要近多一點。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個決定權在行政院。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好啦，這我不為難你啦。但是我另外要再提國訓中心的室內網球場地，網球比賽場地約略有三種，紅土、草地跟硬地，國訓中心在室內蓋人工草地的網球場問題引起各界譁然，這個你們有掌握嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個起因是過去國訓在起這個案子的時候有徵詢過協會，那只有軟網協會有意願進到中心來培訓，現階段他們的國際賽事大部分都是用人工……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個相關的過程我都知道。"],["鄭署長世忠：經過盧彥勳的協助之後，我們目前也做了一些工程上的變更。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我們還是要記得雖然當時只有他們提出，可是四大網球公開賽分別是法網紅土戶外、溫布敦是草地戶外、美澳網是硬地可戶外跟室內，國際四大網球公開賽跟一般網球的比賽有多少在人工草地上進行？這部分我覺得在興建的時候，我們不只應該詢問現況，到底現實狀況怎麼樣，還有國際賽事的趨勢怎麼樣，我們也應該好好的考量，所以在這個部分我們是應該做檢討，對吧？我想運動員最怕受傷，所以鞋子對運動員來說也非常重要，不同的比賽場地穿不同的鞋，像這一次紐西蘭的友誼賽停賽，我們支持，為什麼？所有的選手都不能夠因為賽事的場地規格不符合而受傷，因為受傷可能不可逆，甚至影響整個選手的生涯，可是我們希望有後續的檢討跟事前的維護，以及剛剛說的SOP訂定，甚至足協相關人士應不應該要做一個懲罰、汰除，這都應該要由我們的主管機關幫忙協助督導，這個部分我希望你們能夠關注。","最後，我想請問學生營養午餐法，剛剛有委員提到學校衛生法第二十三條第三項的基改食品，我們現在都很關注基改食品，網路上都有人在討論基改食品跟非基改食品的營養可能幾乎一樣，但是後面的風險有沒有不可控的因素？相關的老鼠實驗的確有增加腫瘤，但在人體實驗上有提出依據說沒有相關的顯著問題，但是「有風險」這三個字對家長來說就很可怕。所以，我想部長剛剛所提到的，從一開始依法執行到後面開始帶到現階段的科學並沒有直指基改食品有一定的問題，這些話語都會讓我們作為家長的有所擔心，尤其國際的趨勢到現階段，我們對於美國的態度並不是非常強而有力，我們沒有這個本錢能夠強力的去回應，那更擔憂這一次會不會有基改食品來到學生營養午餐內。所以，針對營養午餐法，我們提到了很多問題，我就幾個問題來請教部長，學校衛生法第二十三條之一高級中等以下學校，班級數四十班以上者，應至少設置營養師一人，請問一下目前臺灣有多少營養師在協助處理營養午餐事宜？占所有學校多少百分比？部長。"],["彭署長富源：現在依浮動狀況大概有600到800位。"],["羅委員廷瑋：2023年9月的新聞是630名營養師協助處理營養午餐相關事宜。"],["彭署長富源：還要加偏鄉的，他可能沒有加到偏鄉的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是當時的數據是不到19%的學校有營養師，在這一次營養午餐法的訂定過程中，我們也希望能夠明確的訂定，消除營養師、學校、學生家長的一些疑慮。現行大多數都是由教師去擔任營養午餐的秘書，去年3月19日我與全教產就召開了記者會，內容談的就是一般教師兼任午餐秘書這樣的事，長久以來國小老師對於兼任午餐秘書都是在做功德，午餐秘書是行政工作，但是卻沒有工作加給，這個部分在專法還沒完成之前，是不是能給予這些擔任午餐秘書的老師行政加給？部長。"],["彭署長富源：因為這個比較細節，我來跟您報告一下。午秘這樣的工作目前有49%是由老師兼，比較多是行政職也在處理，例如臺北市，所以怎麼樣處理最適合，現在地方政府以老師兼的部分都採減課的方式處理，至於行政加給的部分，確實上次有報告財劃法在實施之後，地方政府有很大的空間，這部分我們再看行政措施上大家怎麼一起來研商。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我要講，如果你要說財劃法，我還是一貫的態度，可以釋錢又釋權，要求地方政府幫忙協助都沒關係，但是一個態度很重要，能不能幫忙協助關心這一群午餐秘書是我們後續想要來關注的，還有剛剛說的營養午餐法，以及營養午餐能夠有營養師來幫忙協助，這個也希望部長能夠關注，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","我們在吳沛憶委員質詢完後休息5分鐘。","現在請葛如鈞召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143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三藍號沒有一條線有停台纜"},{"start":90.103,"end":116.41,"text":"針對這種觀光列車的部分大概台鐵他們有一個一套計畫那但是如果說觀光的部分的話我們會扛鐵跟那個沿鐵啊我覺得那個部分應該很有鐵道迷對台南是台灣鐵道文化的歷史重鎮是包括那個車站也是很重要是台灣最古老的火車站嘛那台南的鐵路啊就台鐵在台南一共有14個車站"},{"start":118.307,"end":135.764,"text":"像後壁、新林、善化、永康、台南等等保安啦國定古蹟就是台南火車站,台南車站市定古蹟就是剛那個保安車站那總經理嘛,感謝總經理那歷史建築物就是後壁還有林鳳營車站"},{"start":138.064,"end":163.871,"text":"那另外再加上一些支線好像台塘的五分車路線新營道柳營的八翁線後壁歐秋南的新港東線那麼多的鐵道觀光資源台鐵為什麼把台南挑過去報告委員我們了解台南地區周邊地區很多相關的文化觀光旅遊的一個豐富的資產"},{"start":164.671,"end":185.723,"text":"所以我們明日號還有明日廚房跟我們的三藍海豐號每半年我們都會檢討行程都沒有檢討到台南為什麼不停不要挑怪我的問題你知道我要問什麼嘛拜託一下輔導或者推廣推動一下保護員"},{"start":186.744,"end":205.079,"text":"介紹來台南庭我們結合六七八月觀光署有一個鐵道旅遊節那台鐵這邊其實已經有規劃了就是明日號在六月份會走台南明日號六月份可以停台南了喔對 停台南只有一條明日號啊真的沒辦法 要記住了"},{"start":206.36,"end":234.74,"text":"後續我們還有山南海豐我們都會動態來做一個檢討因為把台南地區把它納入我們你說什麼號 山南號山南跟海豐讓台南豐富的鐵道歷史應該 我相信這個我們好好來推廣 這個絕對有吸引力好不好而且台南還有唐鐵對 我們還有唐鐵啊就我剛剛跟部長分享嘛整體的鐵道旅遊節也會結合唐鐵的部分"},{"start":235.14,"end":263.205,"text":"湯田那五文車喔,你如果營業多一點台灣現在很少了啦台湯那五文車喔,就是新娘到女娘的八王線啦另外後面那新港東線,就非常有趣啦好不好,是不是大家來結合一下打造我們台南的古都觀光列車裡面那個鐵道把它拉進來另外啊,不是只有陸地的鐵道啦"},{"start":264.138,"end":288.873,"text":"海上也一樣我們看一下我們台南的現在郵輪我已經在這邊喊話很多次了現在大概郵輪去年停靠台南的是零今年好像預估也是零那你國際郵輪不來就算了現在連國內的航線台南也是零為什麼會這樣"},{"start":291.862,"end":313.943,"text":"在今年啦 今年有一個觀光會議這個不錯啦至少我們好像觀光署有召開一個全國的觀光會議嘛讓各縣市政府把他們的觀光的需求提出來這個我要肯定周署長我們去辦這樣的一個全國觀光大會上台南市政府就特別提出國內的航線是不是請觀光"},{"start":315.124,"end":335.398,"text":"交通部來幫忙再恢復台南馬宮航線台南到馬宮委員在說是台南到馬宮的部分啦這個是台南市政府在觀光會議上我們請航港局來協助這個部分大家來溝通一下那目前是布袋啦布袋走馬宮這條航線是有的那我們來思考一下台南的部分怎麼來增加因為"},{"start":337.052,"end":356.059,"text":"現在國際郵輪人數大概恢復到疫前的就是COVID-19前的85%了就是坐國際郵輪來台灣的旅客但國內航線的旅客數已經超越疫情之前了那台南都還零"},{"start":356.599,"end":381.536,"text":"保護員其實我剛剛聽署長在說很像台南市政府也願意幫忙出一些錢讓我們一起結合起來來爭取這個航線因為他們希望能夠567配合那個花火節所以他們希望能夠加大力道來把台南跟馬宮這個航線把它串起來我覺得這個計畫還不錯重要就對就是一個定期航線嘛"},{"start":382.296,"end":384.458,"text":"另外港務公司去年也說過去國際郵輪展在推銷台灣的時候應該要把台南納進來"},{"start":404.532,"end":433.355,"text":"尤其那個國際的那個大展像那個邁阿密的遊輪展要積極去招商啦那你是有跟台南...我跟委員報告邁阿密現在在...正在那個邁阿密遊輪展我們有派員去全球的遊輪展正在邁阿密那去...往年的話就是我們找那個民政世界啦有跟台南市政府談就是我們也推銷就是美食還有就是一些它的古蹟啦"},{"start":434.116,"end":452.55,"text":"但是他們評估以後就沒有下文但是我們還持續在努力那今年的話我們大概五六月那個我們總經理他會到日本去希望能夠因為日本對台南這邊也有一些親切感希望能夠拉一些那我們所有的場戰我們都準備好了"},{"start":453.24,"end":480.796,"text":"好 這個基本上在這種行銷的推廣上那我們地方政府也需要中央的一個幫忙因為同時我們也看到說鄒書長前幾天有一個新聞就是公安署有統計到國內旅遊天數就國人啊國人在排國內旅遊的平均天數大概只有一點不到一天半那幾乎國內旅遊都是當天往返"},{"start":482.036,"end":502.41,"text":"所以到後來就說那我們是不是應該要推動啊讓國人旅遊可以有留宿至少要住一個晚上嘛那如果來推動這個當然我看這個問題很久但是都沒有人去碰觸啦有的人不願意再過夜是因為覺得第一他國人旅遊排的大部分都是假日"},{"start":504.213,"end":522.927,"text":"當他在假日的時候在台灣國內旅遊偏偏假日的住宿 那個金額都嚇死人比較貴 假日比較貴 平日其實蠻便宜的都是很貴 很可怕的貴這些都是以倍數 甚至好幾倍這種不合理的一種狀態像這種狀況 你不解決 就會惡性循環"},{"start":526.465,"end":543.325,"text":"大家就國內旅遊都一天就趕快解決就當天去當天回來那這樣就失去了國內旅遊推動它最重要的嘛你當然你在那邊住一晚你一定是多消費這必然那為什麼這個問題講了那麼久都沒辦法解決呢"},{"start":545.585,"end":567.76,"text":"報告委員有沒有什麼方式台灣目前的交通的狀況尤其是高鐵大家很習慣搭之後很多人確實是習慣一日遊那一日遊已經佔了百分之七十幾的比例其實很高那我們觀光署也在努力希望大家能夠留宿那也就是我們未來辦的活動我們會希望盡量辦在晚上讓大家例如說我從台北到了台南"},{"start":568.18,"end":584.501,"text":"那因為要參加活動是晚上你就一定會留宿嘛或者是像一些演唱會經濟也是這個概念它是晚上的活動那你必然要在那個都市裡面留宿一晚那我們會來調整這個活動的時間過去就是早上比較多那未來我們希望夜間的這個活動要多一些"},{"start":584.901,"end":604.49,"text":"但是你那個台灣住宿價格那麼高的問題這個這個確實也是個現象啊你不覺得嗎 署長是是是你不會覺得我們的價值是怎樣其實這個跟那個地價稅 房屋稅都有關係因為我們那個地方政府是不是啦 它是平日假日的價差啦對對 他們那次還是用這個什麼地價稅 你現在在說什麼啦"},{"start":605.831,"end":630.521,"text":"假日的部分是比較高 對因為它有一個大概我們算起來大概百分之三十啦當然就旅館業者說因為我平常碰到這裡沒人客沒有可能我整個就是禮拜五禮拜六啊但是有時候你就是殺雞取卵啦你價格 價格飆那麼高那根本沒有人去啊那你不能太不合理啦這實際上有沒有有沒有那個價格定價"},{"start":632.603,"end":646.4,"text":"確實有那個烘台價格的那個狀況還是要注意一下還是要補導業者對那個因為一般旅館他在掛牌上市那我再請問一下有沒有因為價格太高到目前為止受處罰的案例"},{"start":647.602,"end":668.653,"text":"他們都沒有超過他的標價他們都是用標價來降低來販售平日打折的折數比較多平日就是照標價平東就有個案例啊平常800後來賣了7000多10倍那個直接取締了那直接取締我覺得跟你說像這種狀況你還是要有一定的資本有有那直接取締而且我們重罰平東縣政府直接重罰15萬"},{"start":670.024,"end":673.146,"text":"如果國內旅遊都是一天玩板 那國內觀光怎麼擠得來來匆匆 去匆匆啊好不好喔 謝謝部長 謝謝署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時18分）感謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林委員俊憲：還有觀光署的周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。部長，我今天要提幾個問題給部長參考一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：就提觀光署在推鐵道觀光，其實我看起來有一點成效，而且應該會越來越好，因為這是一個新型態的旅遊。臺灣其實鐵道的歷史非常悠久，也有很多的鐵道迷，像現在玩這種鐵道，我看有幾條路線開出來了，去年一整年我覺得應該有破20萬人，我在最後山嵐號花蓮到池上這個部分沒有寫上人數，主要是因為還沒有給我這個統計數字，所以大概一年已經有超過20萬人，今年應該會更好吧？"],["陳部長世凱：今年一定會更好，而且我看觀光署有一個案子在主推，就是鐵道旅遊節，在今年會推鐵道旅遊節。"],["林委員俊憲：署長，那可不可以拜託推一下臺南？"],["周署長永暉：有啦！"],["林委員俊憲：像環島之星、鳴日號、藍皮解憂號、海風號、福森號、山嵐號，沒有一條線有停臺南，為什麼？"],["周署長永暉：針對這種觀光列車的部分，臺鐵他們有一套計畫，但是如果是觀光的部分，我們有糖鐵和鹽鐵，我覺得那個部分應該很有鐵道迷的……"],["林委員俊憲：這個計畫沒有臺南嗎？因為臺南是臺灣鐵道文化的歷史重鎮。"],["周署長永暉：是，包括那個車站也是很重要。"],["林委員俊憲：臺南火車站是臺灣最古老的火車站嘛！"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["林委員俊憲：臺鐵在臺南段一共有14個車站，像後壁、新營、善化、永康、臺南等等，還有保安，國定古蹟就是臺南車站，市定古蹟就是保安車站。你是臺鐵的總經理嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對。"],["林委員俊憲：那歷史建築物就是後壁還有林鳳營車站，另外再加上一些支線，像台糖的五分車路線，從新營到柳營的八翁線，還有後壁到烏樹林的新港東線，有那麼多的鐵道觀光資源，那臺鐵為什麼把臺南跳過去？"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，我們了解臺南周邊地區有很多相關的文化，有豐富的觀光旅遊資產，所以我們對鳴日號、鳴日廚房、山嵐號跟海風號每半年都會檢討行程……"],["林委員俊憲：都沒有檢討為什麼沒有停臺南嗎？不要跳過我的問題啦！"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們在6月……"],["林委員俊憲：你知道我要問什麼嘛！"],["馮總經理輝昇：知道。"],["林委員俊憲：拜託你們輔導、推廣或推動一下，介紹然後讓這些路線能夠停臺南。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們結合6、7、8月觀光署的鐵道旅遊節，那臺鐵這邊其實已經有規劃了，就是鳴日號在6月會走臺南。"],["林委員俊憲：好，鳴日號6月份可以停臺南了。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["馮總經理輝昇：停臺南站。"],["林委員俊憲：只有一條鳴日號嗎？不能多幾條路線嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：後續還有山嵐號、海風號，我們都會動態來做一個檢討，一定會把臺南地區納入。"],["林委員俊憲：你說什麼號？是山嵐號嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：山嵐號跟海風號。"],["林委員俊憲：好，臺南有豐富的鐵道歷史，我們要好好來推廣，這個絕對有吸引力，好不好？"],["馮總經理輝昇：好。"],["陳部長世凱：而且臺南還有糖鐵。"],["林委員俊憲：對，我們還有糖鐵，就是我剛剛跟部長分享的。"],["陳部長世凱：所以整體的鐵道旅遊節也會結合糖鐵的部分。"],["林委員俊憲：你有空的可以去坐糖鐵的五分車，現在在臺灣已經很少了，我們說的台糖五分車就是從新營到柳營的八翁線，另外就是後壁到烏樹林的新港東線，都非常有趣，是不是請大家來結合一下打造我們臺南的古都觀光列車，把這個鐵道納進來？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：另外，不是只有陸地的鐵道，海上也一樣，我們看一下臺南現在的郵輪，我已經在這邊喊話很多次了，去年停靠臺南的郵輪航次是零，今年的預估好像也是零，國際郵輪不來就算了，現在連國內航線臺南也是零，為什麼會這樣？今年有一個觀光會議，這個不錯，至少觀光署有召開一個全國的觀光會議，讓各縣市政府把他們的觀光需求提出來，我要肯定周署長辦理這樣一個全國觀光大會，臺南市政府就特別提出國內航線，是不是請交通部來幫忙恢復臺南馬公航線？"],["陳部長世凱：委員在說的是臺南到馬公的部分。"],["林委員俊憲：這是臺南市政府在觀光會議上……"],["陳部長世凱：我們請航港局來協助這個部分，大家來溝通一下，目前布袋走馬公這條航線是有的，我們來思考一下臺南的部分怎麼增加。"],["林委員俊憲：因為現在國際郵輪人數大概恢復到疫前、COVID-19前的85%，就是坐國際郵輪來臺灣的旅客，但國內航線的旅客數已經超越疫情之前，臺南都還是零。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我剛剛聽署長說好像臺南市政府也願意幫忙出一些錢，我們一起結合起來爭取這個航線。"],["周署長永暉：對，他們希望能夠5、6、7月配合花火節，所以他們希望能夠加大力道來把臺南跟馬公這條航線串起來，我覺得這個計畫還不錯。"],["林委員俊憲：重要的就是一個定期航線，部長，是不是也請航港局、觀光署幫忙推動一下？"],["陳部長世凱：我來跟航港局這邊溝通一下，目前航港局好像還沒同意，我來跟他們溝通。"],["林委員俊憲：另外，去年也說過了，港務公司去參加國際郵輪展在推銷臺灣的時候，應該要把臺南納進來，尤其是國際大展，像邁阿密郵輪展，你們要積極去招商，你有沒有把我們臺南納進去宣傳一下？"],["李董事長賢義：跟委員報告，現在正在舉行邁阿密郵輪展，我們有派員去。"],["陳部長世凱：全球的郵輪展正在邁阿密。"],["李董事長賢義：往年我們是有找名勝世界跟臺南市政府談，我們也推銷美食還有一些古蹟，但是他們評估以後就沒有下文，我們還持續在努力。今年5、6月我們的王總經理會到日本去，因為日本對臺南這邊也有一些親切感，希望能夠拉一些，我們所有的場站都準備好了。"],["林委員俊憲：基本上，在行銷推廣上，地方政府也需要中央的幫忙，同時我也看到前幾天的一個新聞，觀光署有統計國內旅遊天數，國人安排國內旅遊的平均天數大概只有一點多天，不到一天半，國內旅遊幾乎都是當天往返，後來有說我們是不是應該要推動讓國人旅遊可以有留宿的機會，至少要住一個晚上，如何來推動，我看這個問題很久了，但是都沒有人去碰觸。有的人不願意過夜是因為覺得國內旅遊大部分都是安排在假日，當他假日在臺灣國內旅遊的時候，偏偏假日的住宿金額都嚇死人。"],["陳部長世凱：假日比較貴，平日其實滿便宜。"],["林委員俊憲：假日都很貴，很可怕的貴，甚至都是好幾倍這種不合理的狀態，像這種狀況不解決就會惡性循環，造成大家在國內旅遊都一天就趕快解決，當天去、當天回來，這樣就失去了推動國內旅遊最重要的目的，你在那邊住一晚一定是多消費，這是必然的，為什麼這個問題講了那麼久都沒辦法解決呢？有沒有什麼方式？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺灣目前的交通狀況，尤其是高鐵，大家很習慣搭乘之後，很多人確實是習慣一日遊，一日遊已經占了百分之七十幾的比例，其實很高，觀光署也在努力，希望大家能夠留宿。所以我們會希望未來辦的活動儘量辦在晚上，例如大家從臺北到臺南因為要參加的活動是晚上，你就一定會留宿，或是像一些演唱會經濟也是這個概念，它是晚上的活動，所以你必然要在那個都市裡面留宿一晚，我們會調整活動的時間，過去都是早上比較多，未來我們希望夜間的活動要多一些。"],["林委員俊憲：但是臺灣住宿價格那麼高的問題，這個確實也是個現象，你不覺得嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：署長，你不覺得假日住宿價格有問題？"],["周署長永暉：其實這個跟地價稅、房屋稅都有關係，因為地方政府……"],["林委員俊憲：不是啦！這是平日假日的價差。"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["林委員俊憲：什麼地價稅，你現在在說什麼？"],["周署長永暉：假日的部分是比較高，我們算起來大概是30%。"],["林委員俊憲：這個太不合理了吧！當然有旅館業者說因為他們平常沒有客人。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這是成本和供需的問題。"],["林委員俊憲：平日沒有客人，他只能做禮拜五、禮拜六，但是有時候就是殺雞取卵，你的價格在假日飆那麼高，根本就沒有人去，所以你不能太不合理，實際上有沒有價格定價確實有哄抬價格的狀況，還是要注意一下，還是要輔導業者。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["周署長永暉：因為一般旅館在掛牌上都是地方政府在處理。"],["林委員俊憲：我再請教到目前為止，有沒有因為價格太高受處罰的案例？"],["周署長永暉：他們都沒有超過它的標價，他們都是用標價來降低販售。"],["陳部長世凱：平日打折的折數比較多，假日就是照標價。"],["林委員俊憲：你亂講！屏東就有個案例，平常800，後來賣到七千多，是10倍。"],["周署長永暉：那個直接取締了。"],["林委員俊憲：對，我就是要跟你說，像這種狀況你還是要有一定的執法。"],["周署長永暉：有，那個直接取締，而且屏東縣政府直接重罰15萬。"],["林委員俊憲：如果國內旅遊都是一天往返，國內觀光怎麼振興得起來，大家都來匆匆、去匆匆，對不對？謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：等一下廖先翔委員發言完休息10分鐘。","現在請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王育敏","陳冠廷","劉建國","王義川","林倩綺"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「如何推動國際旅客來台觀光」及「提升國際機場量能與服務品質\n及增闢國際線航點航班之作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附\n屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計46案；三、審查人民請願文書共12案","agenda_id":"1143601_00002"}}},{"id":"159942","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159942","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce493e5733cbea71cab899a01abdeb36336e4b1f34053c89de2368db663b262ab65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:10:54 - 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那我就希望說這個東西能夠盡快那再來可以看到說我們從這個數字上來講我想幾個航空站列表來講的話航空站等級台灣機場當然特等嘛 這沒有疑問那松山機場是甲等然後高雄小港機場是甲等然後台中的這個機場是乙等那你可以看其實從這個跑道長度跟跑道寬度跟空橋數量的比較當然空橋數量的確確實這個台中機場稍微相對少一點跟松山機場相比的話"},{"start":186.01,"end":202.834,"text":"那跑道長度的話你看我們台中慶春庄機場的跑道長度是3659公尺那它的長度跟這個陶基相比其實相距不遠那在這個規劃上面你會覺得說其實台中機場以長度來講反而也適合"},{"start":203.414,"end":231.069,"text":"停大型的客機比起可能比起松山或比起小港我們停大型客機的這個機率它的航道更長嘛所以在這個航空站等級的時候因為之前宣布它台中升為國際機場之後它的這個等級並沒有提升但我不知道到底問題是卡在哪裡它的優勢有這樣跑到優勢為什麼沒有機會來提升它的這個航空站等級因為您也在台中也很清楚千全崗它原本是一個軍機場而且到目前為止"},{"start":231.169,"end":257.628,"text":"目前為止它還是很重要的一個軍機場所以它軍方的任務其實也還蠻繁重的所以在這個機場先天上有這個限制那另外針對跑道的部分雖然它的長度夠但它跑道的品質還沒有到達可以讓大量的這個大飛機來起降的部分所以這個品質的部分我們還要跟軍方來協調跟協商就整體的跑道長度是夠但品質還沒有到那個程度部長可以確認一下你說這個品質"},{"start":259.109,"end":280.698,"text":"長途之構嘛 那個品質要跟軍方來做相關的這個確認但是我想問一下以航空站 以民航機場這一段的這個台中機場這個跑道的品質等等的這個維護是由我們交通部是軍方是軍方負責 不是交通部負責對 那是軍方的跑道所以我們還要拜託我們還要拜託他們把我們跑道弄好一點對對對那這有機會把它這個"},{"start":281.86,"end":307.719,"text":"我們會跟他們一起分擔經費 大家一起來做啦大家一起來做 到最後就沒有人做啦 都是這樣子啦但是那個機場報告委員 到目前為止它還是很重要的軍機場是整個中部地區很重要的一個軍機場所以它還是以軍用為主啦 目前看起來是以軍用為主但是我現在講的是民航這一段啊 基本上居民養 它是居民養用嘛但是我們是用它的跑道"},{"start":308.479,"end":322.45,"text":"那個跑道現在也沒有在飛有在飛戰鬥機嗎有啊有啊戰鬥機一直在飛這個我不清楚我一直以為單純是民用機場在飛他不是把那個跑道移交給我們不是是我們一起在合用所以大部分時間其實是在飛軍機"},{"start":323.951,"end":351.119,"text":"好那我們有航班的時候來使用給民航這樣那所以要提升這個如果要提升呃台中機場的跑道的這個品質不是我們交通部負責的業務我們跟他們一起啦我們會跟他們一起討論那並且我們會分擔經費好部長謝謝部長這部分我這個我相對有點有點這個詫異喔我一直以為這個呃民航民用機場的部分已經是歸交通部管了沒想到還要跟這個軍方來合作好那最後一點時間喔那這個"},{"start":354.398,"end":358.023,"text":"屢次的問題因為就下一張屢次的問題因為不是 欸 上一張"},{"start":359.406,"end":386.995,"text":"屢次的問題因為現在提到說台中機場剛剛也剛剛前面何委員提到說其實現在就是公車的接駁那我們當然期待說所謂的局限能夠盡快的來有進度因為這個是機場捷運的部分那到底現在局限的狀況怎麼樣可以跟我們說一下局限的延伸的部分已經納入可行性評估裡面這個在這個去年對台中市政府已經把它納入了那這個部分其實交通部的部分就是照進度在進行我們也會加快速度來來這個審議"},{"start":390.117,"end":402.749,"text":"什麼時候有沒有什麼進度因為我們去年在送去年交通部審議的時候已經過了嘛那現在送行政院送行政院了嗎這個局限的部分資料有沒有"},{"start":404.509,"end":419.983,"text":"這個部分委員我再查清楚再跟您報告好沒關係因為時間有限了那我們期待說因為台中的這個人口數也真的非常足夠他是中部最重要的城市那機場如果解決完了假設有機會你先說今天提出是綜合規劃"},{"start":420.583,"end":439.271,"text":"那我想縱橫規劃裡面一定也包含了對外的交通的部分啦這應該是很重要的評估的重點所以我們當然期待說在縱橫規劃的這部分裡面也包含把機場捷運納入那機場捷運納入的前提當然是機場捷運要有進度嘛所以這部分我們再拜託交通部催促一下好不好那我先到這邊 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時11分）謝謝主席。我們請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，一開始也是要跟你討論我們臺中機場的問題，如果是臺中人要出國的話，除了去臺中機場之外，我想目前很多人的選擇是到桃園搭乘飛機，他的路徑當然是出門、搭高鐵，高鐵之後轉捷運，然後才會到機場，這是中部人的日常。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員健豪：你可以看一下我放的一個空拍圖，其實我們一直為什麼在講臺中機場，我們從周邊環境來看，我們先扣除掉桃園這個機場，因為它已經是臺灣最大的國際機場了，我們看其他的國際機場，我們有幾個比較，松山機場、小港機場跟臺中機場周邊環境，為什麼要提這個空拍圖給你看，你可以看到松山機場跟小港機場的周邊，其實基本上因為早期開發比較早，所以它周邊的民房基本上都蓋滿了，所以沒有什麼腹地，要再擴張可能會相對比較辛苦一點。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：如果是臺中機場，我想臺中機場這邊也可以看到，其實它周邊的腹地相對來講還是蠻寬闊的。我之前在總質詢的時候也跟部長提到，我們希望對臺中、中部地區的照顧能夠多一點，我為什麼要提這個？比如我用這個圖給你舉例，以金額來講，小港機場的部分，我想你知道過去有南北雙空港大計畫，為高雄機場投入了880億元的改建計畫……"],["陳部長世凱：對，目前正在執行。"],["黃委員健豪：對嘛！臺中機場是多少？10億，不到10億的機場改善工程經費，有6.8億是做機場滑行道工程。我想這個差異真的很大，如果一講到要增加觀光客、要增加中部地區的交通流量等等，如果從金額面上來看的話，其實我覺得臺中相對比較委屈一點，請問部長怎麼看待這個議題？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所提到的那個10億應該是跑道改建的部分。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["陳部長世凱：針對整體的機場，我們也希望會蓋第三航廈，我們在2045年之前有一個第三航廈的規劃，那我們應該在今年5、6月就會開始招標並規劃這件事情。"],["黃委員健豪：所以未來臺中機場有機會再擴建成為真正的……"],["陳部長世凱：它一定要擴建，那我們也有一個第三航廈的計畫，希望未來能夠擴大臺中機場整體的運量。"],["黃委員健豪：是今年開始規劃嗎？這個計畫現在的進度是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：我們的計畫現在正在招標中，就是綜合規劃正在招標當中。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我希望這個東西能夠儘快。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，我們從數字上來講，我想以這個航空站列表來講的話，我們看到航空站的等級，桃園機場當然是特等，這個沒有疑問，那松山機場是甲等、高雄小港機場是甲等、臺中機場是乙等。其實從跑道長度、跑道寬度跟空橋數量來比較，當然臺中機場跟松山機場相比的話，它的空橋數量確實是相對稍微少一點；如果以跑道長度來看，我們臺中清泉崗機場的跑道長度是3,659公尺，以它的長度跟桃機相比，其實相去不遠，在這個規劃上面我們覺得臺中機場以長度來講反而適合停大型的客機，比起松山或比起小港，我們停大型客機的機率……因為它的航道更長嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：所以關於航空站的等級，因為在宣布臺中機場升為國際機場之後，它的等級並沒有提升，我們不知道到底問題是卡在哪裡，它有這樣的跑道優勢，為什麼沒有機會提升這個航空站的等級？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為您也在臺中，所以您也很清楚，清泉崗原本是一個軍機場，而且到目前為止，它還是一個很重要的軍機場，它的軍方任務其實也還蠻繁重的，所以這個機場先天上有這個限制。另外，針對跑道的部分，雖然它的長度夠，但是跑道的品質還沒有到達可以讓大量的大飛機來起降，所以關於品質的部分，我們還要跟軍方來協調跟協商，就是整體來講跑道的長度夠，但是品質還沒有到那個程度，就這個部分我們來協商看看。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我跟你確認一下，你說長度是夠的，至於品質就要跟軍方來做相關的確認，但是我想問一下，以臺中機場來講，跑道品質等等的維護是由交通部……"],["陳部長世凱：是軍方。"],["黃委員健豪：是軍方負責，不是交通部負責嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，那是軍方的跑道，我們會跟他們協調。"],["黃委員健豪：所以我們還要拜託他們把機場的跑道弄好一點？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員健豪：那有機會把這個接管過來嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會跟他們一起分擔經費，大家一起來做，但是那個機場……"],["黃委員健豪：沒有、沒有，我覺得如果是大家一起來做，到最後就沒有人做，都是這樣子啦！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，到目前為止，那個機場還是很重要的軍機場。"],["黃委員健豪：是，這個我清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：它是整個中部地區很重要的一個軍機場，所以它還是以軍用為主，目前看起來是以軍用為主。"],["黃委員健豪：但是我現在講的是民航這一段，基本上，它是軍民兩用。"],["陳部長世凱：是，但是我們是用它的跑道。"],["黃委員健豪：那個跑道現在有在飛戰鬥機嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有，戰鬥機一直都在飛。"],["黃委員健豪：有啊？抱歉，這個我不清楚，我一直以為是單純的民用機場。"],["陳部長世凱：他們不是把那個跑道移交給我們，而是我們一起合用，所以大部分的時間其實是在飛軍機，在我們有航班的時候才給民航使用。"],["黃委員健豪：所以如果要提升臺中機場跑道的品質，並不是交通部負責的業務？"],["陳部長世凱：是我們跟他們一起，我們會跟他們一起討論，並且我們會分擔經費。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長，這部分讓我相對有一點詫異，因為我一直以為是民用機場，所以已經歸交通部管了，沒想到還要跟軍方來合作。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：最後一點時間我要問旅次的問題，剛剛前面何委員也有提到，臺中機場其實現在就是用公車接駁，那我們當然很期待所謂的橘線能夠儘快地有進度，因為這個是機場捷運的部分，到底現在橘線的狀況是怎麼樣？可以跟跟我們說明一下嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：橘線延伸的部分已經納入可行性評估裡面……"],["黃委員健豪：去年。"],["陳部長世凱：對，臺中市政府已經把它納入了，對這個部分其實交通部就是照進度在進行，我們也會加快速度來審議。"],["黃委員健豪：什麼時候？有沒有什麼進度？因為去年交通部審議之後已經過了，那現在這個橘線的部分送行政院了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，關於這個部分我會查清楚之後再跟您報告。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，因為時間也有限。我們很期待，因為臺中的人口數真的也非常足夠，它是中部最重要的城市，那機場的問題如果解決完了，假設有機會，你有說今年提出綜合規劃，那我想綜合規劃裡面一定也包含了對外交通的部分，這應該是很重要的評估重點。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員健豪：所以我們當然期待在綜合規劃的這個部分裡面也包含把機場捷運納入，那機場捷運納入的前提當然是機場捷運要有進度嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：所以這部分我們再拜託交通部催促一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來努力。"],["黃委員健豪：那我質詢到這邊，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝許昭偉 我們請陳部長請部長"},{"start":13.137,"end":39.574,"text":"委員好 部長好平安 大家平安剛剛地震大家都平安我現在也期許我們國內產業界要平安因為最近歷經了美國宣布高關稅的大地震超級大地震我們中部地區的產業是被震到已經頭昏腦脹不知道該怎麼辦所以我就必須要來請教一下部長因為你來自中部"},{"start":41.196,"end":58.071,"text":"我當然非常高興看到這個國際航空加大投資買新機要搶客源拼商機甚至這個預估未來的貨運甚至客運貨運都會增長但是我想請教部長有沒有跟我們國內包括華航今天也來到現場"},{"start":60.487,"end":78.213,"text":"我們這個美國的這個宣布高關稅這當然第一衝擊的是我們的傳統的製造業中小企業還有一些高科技業那我們對於這個整個商業好不好我們對於這整個這個貨運量的投資會不會有影響"},{"start":79.895,"end":92.382,"text":"我想對整體的經濟必然有影響那整體經濟會有影響那旅客的部分也一定會有影響貨運的部分因為今天的媒體有開始有在討論說這個美國高關稅對台灣這個國內的產業的衝擊那衝擊之後呢可能後續會影響到這個消費力那消費市場呢我們必須非常緊密的來注意那尤其呢旅遊市場是不管是國內國外的旅遊市場"},{"start":108.792,"end":126.987,"text":"是消費市場裡面非常重要的一環那也跟今天的專案的報告的一個主題息息相關所以我會從這個國籍航空來切入說第一個我們國籍航空預估受到美國高關稅的這樣子一個政策影響到國內的產業那影響到國內的產業之後又連帶的這個影響到這個經濟"},{"start":132.432,"end":151.965,"text":"那對於我們未來的預測這個我覺得要提醒要小心是導遊員這個部分我們會注意是第二個那旅遊的市場到底是會減緩或萎縮或者是會怎麼樣我也覺得這個第二個要特別小心因為這會牽涉到是我們的這個國內各項產業的一個生計"},{"start":156.128,"end":176.804,"text":"還有呃員工權益還有我們呢對於剛剛大家在談的我們如何在這個危機裡面去面對喔那所以現在我想講說我們華航的子公司虎航跟華信那華航總公司跟新宇跟其他的國際航空都在買飛機那我們的虎航跟華信有沒有"},{"start":177.931,"end":192.269,"text":"報告委員 目前我們華航當然也有購機的計畫我相信大家應該都知道包含空巴 包含波音也都有那虎航的部分目前是有15架的飛機那目前在119年之前他會先汰換一批"},{"start":193.05,"end":211.701,"text":"會到114年的下半年會增加兩架會到17架的飛機但是到了118年之後因為我們有汰換的問題所以還是回復到15架那華信目前是有12架的ATR最近我們也正在汰換當中汰換過程結束之後大概會增加到13架的飛機"},{"start":213.089,"end":238.014,"text":"所以我希望是他能夠永續經營因為呢大家都會擔心啦擔心就是說我們現在這樣子的投資那未來的這個投報率或者是未來他增加的旅客的服務跟運量呢那是不是可以整體的帶動國內的我們國人觀光也好或者是商務旅遊等等這些的一些"},{"start":240.295,"end":264.836,"text":"那我接下來就要問說為什麼我會談這些這兩個都只是一個引言最重要的是我們到底有沒有去盤點跟分析我們對於這個美國高關稅對國內交通觀光的衝擊我剛剛提到了還有呢我們呢這些的採購的這個心機到底能不能納入我們賴總統所說的五大策略的其中第一項擴大對美採購的一個品項清單"},{"start":267.666,"end":295.664,"text":"報告委員其實我們對美像華航要買這個波音的飛機基本上就是增加對美採購那這個部分當然在數額上面其實也是蠻龐大的當然對於兩個國家之間的這個貿易的平衡絕對是有幫助的那這個計畫我們持續一直在做那剛剛委員有提到的對於交通跟觀光的衝擊目前還看不太出來不過以貨運來講的話我們大概到五月底之前的一些貨運量是有稍稍的往下降"},{"start":296.444,"end":322.692,"text":"因為有一些廠商已經開始有觀望的動作對於這個關稅有觀望的動作所以有一些退倉的動作但比例跟幅度並不大目前看起來並不大啦到五月底還不大但是要密切觀察對要密切觀察因為後面的影響這個無法預測沒有人知道那有可能會很大那所以這個部分我們當然會密切來觀察那因為購機的計畫通常都是需要一兩年的時間在規劃我知道是陸續的這個交集嘛"},{"start":322.912,"end":341.419,"text":"所以其實我們不會曉得說現在會突然發生關稅的問題那我們還是照原定計畫在走還是照原定計畫在走所以高關稅政策對於我們購機的計畫第一個沒有多大影響但是有影響的是可能現在開始產業界的觀望的心態會造成我們的貨運"},{"start":343.48,"end":372.039,"text":"可能越微下降但是我還是提醒保持密切的觀察我覺得這個是非常需要小心引引尤其委員剛剛所提到的觀光旅遊的部分對觀光旅遊的衝擊因為觀光旅遊是特別敏感對於景氣這件事特別敏感尤其以去年來觀察的話包含匯率的影響也會影響到大家的旅遊的意願那關稅如果造成整體經濟的狀況有下滑或者是有什麼影響的話我相信旅遊業我們會密切來關注"},{"start":372.839,"end":395.595,"text":"是所以部長拜託密切觀察那我們該協助的要全力來協助那我為什麼這樣講除了我們要對旅遊這個要提升要協助之外對國際航空我們當然也大力支持那除了硬體的新機要買那還有人力的培育人才的培育那我知道我觀察到一個小點"},{"start":397.597,"end":420.407,"text":"台灣虎航他在招考空服員的時候現在你們宣布這個虎航的基地是在高雄部長你也知道我們都是台中來的所以一直對這個台中沒有沒有相關的這個我們國際航空雖然新宇有宣布但是他是只有數沒多少量的飛機在那裡那我們虎航"},{"start":423.508,"end":444.648,"text":"到底對台中機場的要不要納入他的重要的營運據點之一我一直很care我一直很care我當然也知道剛剛我們何局長在這個業務報告裡面有多說了一些對台中機場的一個營運的未來性當然我要特別感謝但是我覺得還不夠"},{"start":445.288,"end":460.23,"text":"我覺得還不夠光是呢這個培育人才的這個部分我還是希望不管是虎航還是華信對於我們台中這個區域的均衡跟人才的培育的均衡這一點也一定要納入考量部長拜託可以嗎"},{"start":460.751,"end":475.207,"text":"好 這個我們來努力 我看委員所提的這個簡報裡面華信航空招空服員錄取率不到1%那這個比例但是相當低那如果有機會的話 台中或許可以考慮一下因為你們的工作地點都是以高雄跟台北"},{"start":476.228,"end":498.074,"text":"對台中來講我們覺得我一直很care就是如果沒有新機沒有人才那我們對台中機場的營運相對的就是好像感覺被弱化那我一直強調說北中南東裡面中部這個第一個腹地大第二個產業聚落多第三個他本來的這個整體的這個人口數是在成長的"},{"start":502.415,"end":517.231,"text":"那以這樣子的一個大城市跟一個腹地大的一個中部區域來講我看不到我們航空業對我們台中的重視對 所以我們現在正在努力包含剛剛高董事長有提到說這個華信航空它的維修的"},{"start":519.891,"end":542.224,"text":"總廠是在台中維修的總廠在台中但我覺得不只是維修啦其他的如果可以移動的話我們盡量來讓台中有一些發展的機會一定要給台中機場一個發展的機會包括上市部長去考察你也提到說對於台中機場的一個擴建計畫我們何局長也承諾要來調整調整完之後我們真正的要"},{"start":543.024,"end":563.796,"text":"好好的把這個擴建計畫能夠執行不要都永遠只在紙上談兵所以我希望能夠呢 盡速的來看到第一步開始那接著我為什麼要看到這個機場的問題是因為呢 如果第一步沒有做 第二步也沒做永遠都沒有第三步 那我們現在"},{"start":565.237,"end":576.031,"text":"旅客量在回溫但是呢我們的周邊的機場的一個公共設施或是連外的交通都不變沒有辦法改善的情況之下那就會變成是惡性循環"},{"start":578.154,"end":602.516,"text":"那我不希望是惡性尋往 我希望是正向的那如果是正向的 地方政府不想動 我們中央政府就要積極來動所以我也很感謝部長 上次考察完之後馬上有做了一個這個機場服務中心來解決對這個台中機場往市區的這個接駁跟旅遊服務但是我覺得不夠啊"},{"start":603.942,"end":628.338,"text":"我最後30秒我跟部長講你也是在地人你知道嗎我們雖然地方有26條的公車路線經過台中機場但是呢從台中機場要往市區的公車裡面第一個班次少第二個每一個都是站站停我舉了三個例子三條線我舉了這三條線的例子第一條線呢從機場到高鐵站要經過20站第二條線呢"},{"start":634.963,"end":656.084,"text":"機場到台中車站要32站第三條線呢從機場到台中車站要66站班次少站暫停沒有直達車雖然你會跟我說這個是地方政府的業務但是呢部長你提出了一個替代方案就是台灣好行的台中機場快捷線那現在進步進度咧"},{"start":658.426,"end":679.668,"text":"因為您一直在關心所以當然觀光署也會進來幫忙那我們的民航局也很努力台中航站在今年的2月5號有拜會了這個交通局台中市政府的交通局那我們也開始籌劃台灣好行的這個車子讓他可以快速能夠抵達旅客需要到的地方我們預計希望在8月份能夠上路來營運"},{"start":681.087,"end":696.639,"text":"可是目前 部長我不知道你這個資訊是從哪裡來的你們觀光署給我的書面資料裡面目前最新的協調進度是什麼是因為交通局面臨主改 尚無法確認實際的排程會議時間所以既然會議時間沒有辦法排程的話"},{"start":702.023,"end":724.965,"text":"那他的這個一一四年的台灣好行新路線呢就暫時擱置我們不會讓他擱置啦他們是因為委員改聘的作業那在五六月份會進行審議那我們會督促他們而且我們跟台中市政府目前有密切在合作我們希望八月份能夠讓他上線我希望就如同部長你講的八月份能夠上線"},{"start":726.007,"end":741.186,"text":"那班次的規劃還有收費的價格是比照一般的台灣好行的這樣的收費機制嗎因為我們觀光署有補助所以它的價格一定會比現在大家所搭乘的更便宜會更便宜會更便宜所以第一個"},{"start":742.587,"end":766.947,"text":"8月上線第二個班次要固定穩定第三個收費會比我們預期的便宜最後一個要大力的宣傳好不好我們希望能夠讓台中機場的營運可以越來越好好不好那其他如果台中市政府不做我們以後讓我來請中央幫忙我們一起來做好不好我們一起努力謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（9時57分）謝謝許召委，我們請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。大家平安！剛剛地震，最近都……"],["陳部長世凱：大家都平安、大家都平安。"],["何委員欣純：對。我現在也期許國內產業界也要平安，因為最近歷經美國宣布高關稅的超級大地震，我們中部地區的產業已經被震到頭昏腦脹，不知道該怎麼辦了，所以我必須要來請教一下部長，因為你也來自中部。","我當然非常高興看到國籍航空加大投資，買新機、搶客源、拚商機，甚至預估未來客運、貨運都會增長。但是我想請教部長有沒有跟國內……包括華航代表今天也來到現場……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：美國宣布高關稅，第一個衝擊的當然是我們傳統的製造業、中小企業，還有一些高科技業，對於我們這整個貨運量和投資會不會有影響？"],["陳部長世凱：我想，對整體經濟必然有影響，對整體經濟會有影響，旅客的部分也一定會有影響，貨運的部分也一定會有影響。"],["何委員欣純：今天媒體有開始在討論美國高關稅對臺灣國內的產業衝擊，後續可能會影響到消費力，我們必須對消費市場非常緊密地注意，尤其不管國內、國外的旅遊市場，都是消費市場裡面非常重要的一環，也跟今天專案報告的主題息息相關，所以我會從國籍航空切入。第一，預估國籍航空受到美國高關稅的政策影響，進而影響到國內產業，影響到國內產業之後，又連帶影響到經濟面，對於未來的預測，我覺得要提醒、要小心。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，這個部分我們會注意。"],["何委員欣純：第二，旅遊市場到底是會減緩、萎縮或者是怎麼樣，我覺得這是第二個要特別小心的。因為這牽涉到國內各項產業的生計和員工權益，還有剛剛大家在談的，我們如何去面對這個危機。所以現在我要問華航子公司虎航、華信的相關問題。華航總公司、星宇和其他國籍航空都在買飛機，虎航和華信有沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：目前華航當然也有購機的計畫，這個我相信大家應該都知道，包含空巴、波音都有。虎航的部分目前是有15架飛機，在119年之前它會先汰換一批，到114年的下半年會增加2架，有17架飛機，但是到了118年之後，因為有汰換的問題，所以還是回復到15架；華信目前是有12架的ATR，最近我們也正在汰換當中，汰換過程結束之後大概會增加到13架飛機。"],["何委員欣純：我希望他們能永續經營，因為大家都會擔心現在這樣子的投資，未來的投報率或者是未來增加的旅客服務和運量是不是可以整體帶動國人的觀光或商務旅遊計畫。","為什麼我會談這些？這兩個都只是一個引言，最重要的是我們到底有沒有去盤點跟分析，有關美國高關稅對國內交通、觀光的衝擊？這是我剛剛提到的。還有，我們這些採購新機的做法到底能不能納入賴總統所說五大策略中的第一項──擴大對美採購的品項清單？"],["陳部長世凱：其實我們對美，像華航要買波音的飛機，基本上就是增加對美採購，這個部分在數額上面其實也是滿龐大的，對於兩個國家之間的貿易平衡也絕對是有幫助的，這個計畫我們持續一直在做。","有關剛剛委員提到的對於交通和觀光的衝擊，目前還看不太出來，不過以貨運來講的話，我們大概到5月底之前的一些貨運量是有稍稍往下降，因為有些廠商已經開始對這個關稅有所觀望，所以有一些退倉的動作，但比例跟幅度並不大。"],["何委員欣純：還不大？"],["陳部長世凱：目前看起來並不大，到5月底還不大……"],["何委員欣純：但是要密切觀察。"],["陳部長世凱：對，要密切觀察，因為後面的影響無法預測，沒有人知道，有可能會很大。所以這個部分，我們當然會密切來觀察，因為購機的計畫通常都是需要一、兩年的時間在規劃……"],["何委員欣純：我知道是陸續的交機嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，所以其實我們不會曉得現在會突然發生關稅的問題，我們還是照原訂計畫走。"],["何委員欣純：所以高關稅政策對於我們購機的計畫，第一個，沒有多大影響，但是有影響的是現在開始產業界觀望的心態會造成我們的貨運可能會略微下降？"],["陳部長世凱：對，略微下降在5月的時候。"],["何委員欣純：但是我還是提醒要保持密切的觀察。"],["陳部長世凱：當然、當然。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得這是非常需要小心因應……"],["陳部長世凱：尤其委員剛剛所提到觀光旅遊的部分。"],["何委員欣純：接著對觀光旅遊的衝擊……"],["陳部長世凱：對，觀光旅遊的衝擊，因為觀光旅遊是特別敏感，對於景氣這件事特別敏感。"],["何委員欣純：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：尤其以去年來觀察，包括匯率的影響，也會影響到大家旅遊的意願，關稅如果造成整體經濟狀況有下滑或者是有什麼影響的話，旅遊業的部分，我們會密切來關注。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以部長拜託，要密切觀察！我們該協助的要全力來協助。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：我為什麼這樣講，除了我們對旅遊要提升、要協助之外，對國籍航空，我們當然也大力支持，除了硬體的新機要買，還有人力的培育、人才的培育。我觀察到一個小點，台灣虎航在招考空服員的時候，現在你們宣布虎航的基地是在高雄，部長你也知道，我們都是臺中來的，所以一直對於臺中沒有相關的國籍航空，雖然星宇有宣布，但是它只有沒多少輛的飛機在那裡，而虎航對於臺中機場，到底要不要納入它重要的營運據點之一，我一直很care，我當然也知道剛剛何局長在業務報告裡面，有多說了一些對臺中機場營運的未來性，當然我要特別感謝，但是我覺得還不夠，光是培育人才的這個部分，我還是希望不管是虎航還是華信，對於我們臺中區域的均衡，跟人才培育的均衡，這一點也一定要納入考量。部長，拜託！可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來努力，我看委員所提的簡報裡面，華信航空招空服員錄取率不到1%，這個比例當然是相當低，如果有機會的話，臺中或許可以考慮一下。"],["何委員欣純：因為你們的工作地點都是高雄跟臺北，對於臺中來講，我一直很care，如果沒有新機、沒有人才，我們對臺中機場的營運，相對的就好像感覺被弱化，我一直強調北中南東裡面，中部第一個，腹地大；第二個，產業聚落多；第三個，它本來整體人口數是在成長的，以這樣子的一個大城市跟一個腹地大的中部區域來講，我看不到航空業對臺中的重視。"],["陳部長世凱：對，所以我們現在正在努力，包含剛剛高董事長有提到華信航空維修的總廠是在臺中。"],["何委員欣純：維修的總廠在臺中？"],["陳部長世凱：但我覺得不只是維修，其他的如果可以移動的話，我們儘量來讓臺中有一些發展的機會。"],["何委員欣純：是，一定要給臺中機場一個發展的機會，包括上次部長去考察，你也提到對於臺中機場的擴建計畫，何局長也承諾要調整，調整完之後，我們真正要好好的讓這個擴建計畫能夠執行，不要都永遠只在紙上談兵。所以我希望能夠儘速地看到第一步開始。接著，我為什麼看到這個機場的問題，是因為如果第一步沒有做，第二步也沒做，永遠都沒有第三步，我們現在旅客量在回溫，但是周邊機場的公共設施或是聯外的交通不便，沒有辦法改善的情況之下，那就會變成是惡性循環。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：我不希望是惡性循環，我希望是正向的，如果是正向的，地方政府不想動，我們中央政府就要積極來動。所以我也很感謝部長，上次考察完之後，有馬上做了一個機場服務中心來解決對臺中機場往市區的接駁跟旅遊服務，但是我覺得不夠。最後30秒，我跟部長講，你也是在地人，你知道嗎？我們雖然地方有26條的公車路線經過臺中機場，但是從臺中機場要往市區的公車裡面，第一個，班次少；第二個，每一個都是站站停。我舉了三個例子，三條線，我舉這三條線的例子，第一條線從機場到高鐵站要經過20站；第二條線從機場到臺中車站要32站；第三條線，從機場到臺中車站要66站。班次少、站站停，沒有直達車，雖然你會跟我說這個是地方政府的業務，但是部長提出了一個替代方案，就是臺灣好行的臺中機場快捷線，現在進度呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為您一直在關心，所以當然觀光署也會進來幫忙，我們民航局也很努力，臺中航站在今年的2月5日有拜會了臺中市政府的交通局，我們也開始籌劃臺灣好行的車子，讓它可以快速能夠抵達旅客需要到的地方，我們預計希望在8月份能夠上路營運。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我不知道你這個資訊是從哪裡來，你們觀光署給我的書面資料裡面，目前最新的協調進度是什麼？是因為交通局面臨組改，尚無法確認實際的排程會議時間，所以既然會議時間沒有辦法排程，那麼它114年的臺灣好行新路線就暫時擱置。臺中市政府說不要啦？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們不會讓它擱置，他們是因為委員改聘的作業，在5月份、6月份會進行審議，我們會督促他們，而且我們跟臺中市政府目前有密切在合作，我們希望8月份能夠讓它上線。"],["何委員欣純：我希望就如同部長講的8月份能夠上線。班次的規劃，還有收費的價格，是比照一般的臺灣好行這樣的收費機制嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：因為我們觀光署有補助，所以它的價格一定會比現在大家所搭乘的更便宜，應該是半價……"],["何委員欣純：會更便宜喔？"],["陳部長世凱：會更便宜。"],["何委員欣純：所以第一個，8月上線；第二個，班次要固定、穩定；第三個，收費會比我們預期的便宜；最後一個，要大力的宣傳，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個沒有問題。"],["何委員欣純：我們希望能夠讓臺中機場的營運可以越來越好，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：其他如果臺中市政府不做，以後讓我來請中央幫忙，我們一起來做，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起努力，謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王育敏","陳冠廷","劉建國","王義川","林倩綺"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「如何推動國際旅客來台觀光」及「提升國際機場量能與服務品質\n及增闢國際線航點航班之作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附\n屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計46案；三、審查人民請願文書共12案","agenda_id":"1143601_00002"}}},{"id":"159940","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159940","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce777c07a3970cf98db899a01abdeb36336e4b1f34053c89de32fe287ba23c3e1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:45:21 - 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謝謝昭偉 請一下陳士凱部長 觀光署周署長請部長署長部長應該是去年9月就任吧是到現在也應該半年多了是那有關於觀光發展是交通部重要的責任跟重要的工作這是我們來看整體的觀光的發展在這一年多來的一個狀況"},{"start":30.751,"end":48.157,"text":"我們現在國旅逐漸恢復到疫情之前的水準那這個表現是算勉強及格當然還有很多的議題包括這個交通的路線房價過高等等他的這種觀光的品質還是必須要去做改進"},{"start":49.897,"end":75.073,"text":"國際旅遊的部分我們的旅遊跟疫情之前來比較我認為表現我必須要很嚴肅的講表現是不及格的我們來看出國的旅客人次我們台灣的出國旅客人次如果2019跟2024來做比較現在出國的人數是越來越多也逐漸恢復到疫情之前"},{"start":75.413,"end":90.95,"text":"之前的這個水準恢復到98.52的這樣的一個水準而且必須要注意年輕人出國的比例越來越高越來越不想在台灣國內旅遊那另外來台的旅客人次更是讓我們擔憂"},{"start":93.012,"end":95.034,"text":"在2024年只有785萬那2019年有1186萬的這樣的一個旅遊人士我們恢復的比例只有66.23"},{"start":108.356,"end":128.237,"text":"部長這樣是不行的來你有什麼想法你來半年多了對觀光的議題我知道你也有在進行了解來你有什麼想法報告委員其實來台旅客的人次這幾年雖然都在增加但是我們復甦的速度實在是比起其他國家有些慢那這個部分我們應該要再加強"},{"start":128.957,"end":145.015,"text":"我覺得幾個點包含剛剛洪牧凱委員在質詢的內容就是說有一些國外的旅客要來亞洲的時候台灣不是首選甚至連前面幾名都排不到這個是我們要檢討的那也就是我們在國外的行銷剛剛委員有提到就是現在年輕人很喜歡出國"},{"start":145.876,"end":171.792,"text":"那他出國的時候他心裡面一定有一個圖像哪個地方好玩他想去代表台灣現在在其他各國的年輕人或旅客的心裡面的那個圖像不夠明顯所以第一個我們的行銷的問題必須要解決那行銷我們的費用有開始漸漸在增加也有漸漸看到成效不過行銷的方式我們可以再檢討行銷的方式會不會是沒有剛好打中人心這個部分我們要去思考那第二個就是說"},{"start":172.893,"end":188.362,"text":"包含剛剛所講的行銷我們在各國的服務據點在過去是不夠的那我們在這兩年其實也在各國的觀光服務據點也不斷在提升這個部分是很重要的處理第三其實更重要的是旅客來了台灣第一次之後會不會想第二次"},{"start":189.002,"end":215.207,"text":"如果要讓他來第二次那品質就很重要台灣要好玩到品質夠好那這個部分牽扯到人才我們的人才夠不夠觀光的人才所以我們觀光研訓院會在今年年底會來成立觀光的人才這個是打底的工作我們必須把它打好讓國外的旅客來到台灣之後第一次還會有第二次甚至會帶其他的旅客來部長剛才提到有關於國外的旅客對於台灣的觀光印象到底是什麼"},{"start":216.067,"end":241.743,"text":"我們有國際觀光宣傳的這個經費在觀光基金裡面有這種精準課員的開拓計畫今年應該編列了大概17億左右17億我們的觀光宣導有這麼多的經費但是我認為一直做得不好所有的觀光旅客 國際旅客以這個2024年觀光署自己的這個報告"},{"start":244.162,"end":268.246,"text":"國際旅客對台灣的公關印象是什麼就是101就是故宮就是像西門町信義商業區這些再加個淡水頂多再加上阿里山等等日月台他們的印象一直是這樣我們對於各地的宣導不足建立區域旅遊品牌的這種特色"},{"start":269.568,"end":288.759,"text":"火力不夠做得也不好宣導也不夠然後這十幾年來一直要求觀光署針對除了這些觀光客既有的印象之外你應該去加強其他地區的區域的這個特色這個必須要去做改進另外我們來看一下我們以日本的經驗來說現在"},{"start":294.83,"end":309.261,"text":"有很多人說我們希望特別的國家來支持台灣的旅遊就是說中國啦中國來我們的觀光業就能夠一飛沖天就能大幅的一個發展我們來看2024年各國國際旅客的統計日本3687萬人次"},{"start":317.85,"end":326.453,"text":"它超越2019已經是創下歷史新高我們才66%韓國有1637萬人次是2019年的94%我們66%2024年到日本的中國旅客比2019年還要少 少了260萬但是他們東亞跟歐美的旅客是大幅增加國際旅客創下歷史新高"},{"start":349.209,"end":366.678,"text":"部長你要特別注意看2024年中國出國的人次統計他比2019年還要少874萬人次我們推動公共發展是要依靠良好的旅遊品質建立區域旅遊的特色台灣的特色"},{"start":367.538,"end":394.751,"text":"然後不是依靠特定的國家不然簡單說明一下報告委員確實我們這幾年也在轉型當中我們在疫情之前跟現在相比的話中國的旅客減少200多萬人次但我們台灣最近以去年來講比起前年我們日本客增加了百分之四十幾韓國客也增加了百分之三四十尤其是歐美客歐美客我們增加百分之二十幾我們現在正在拓展中國以外的重要的旅客的區域"},{"start":396.051,"end":415.106,"text":"那這個部分其實在去年有一些斬獲不過我們還可以再加強這個部分確實是要好好的努力要向日本學習部長我們來看看我們觀光面臨什麼困境第一個觀光的同質性高缺乏特色魅力缺乏區域的景點品牌我們看台灣的老街"},{"start":416.161,"end":439.677,"text":"特色都差不多賣的東西也差不多我們的駱魚松你種我也種大家都在種櫻花也是你種我也種還有像什麼觀景台觀景高台你做我也做你有清水公園我也來弄個清水公園他沒有形成地方的這種區域旅遊的特色啦另外旅遊品質不佳"},{"start":441.701,"end":467.81,"text":"疫情期間我們的轉型跟改善做得不夠這個在當初疫情剛發生的時候我就一再督促以日本香港新加坡韓國他們的具體的長期的中長期的改善計畫我們沒有落實我們沒有做好另外數位運用資訊及交通的整合不佳這也是個問題宣傳與特色無法結合缺乏核心的客群"},{"start":469.704,"end":494.427,"text":"部長這種同質性高然後區域的特色無法建立你們有什麼具體的做法跟想法這個部分當然在疫情的過程當中應該是我們打底的好時機確實過去有幾年的時間該做沒做這個我們虛心檢討那我們現在要把整整體的旅遊品質要建立起來包含我們跟各地的商圈也要溝通大家有沒有各自的觀光的特色"},{"start":495.188,"end":511.54,"text":"以商業來講有沒有觀光的特色可以提供給旅客這個部分大家有一點區隔性會比較好那委員所提到的數位應用的部分我們跟公研院那邊也是有在做合作也就是說數位應用的部分我們過去沒有跟上包含資訊應用的部分我們現在正在加強當中好時間先暫停"},{"start":525.37,"end":526.312,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":535.751,"end":555.732,"text":"好希望大家都平安大家平安另外我們對於相關的觀光旅遊補助當然有效但不是長遠之計那我們應該以區域特色的這樣的一個建立來建立長期觀光發展的一個模式我們應該仿效日本的這種政策的白皮書"},{"start":556.713,"end":581.54,"text":"召集地方的歷史文化或具有產業特色的自治團體或者是組織來結合當地的民眾以及中小微型的商家共同的參與共同的參與來建立地方參與的發展模式以地方特色為基礎來規劃觀光文化品牌的這種產業的經營策略來建立具有地方特色的觀光品牌"},{"start":582.688,"end":591.395,"text":"二十多年前我去紐約的旅遊局參訪紐約的旅遊局他們市政府的旅遊局他們經費一半是"},{"start":593.258,"end":619.472,"text":"這個觀光產業界出的錢一半是政府出的錢然後他們共同推出適合的旅遊局的局長人選來推動他們的一個旅遊要有產業界的參與我一直提醒署長還有部長要跟觀光產業界多對話了解困境來以及提供相關的建議讓他們知道政府的努力那"},{"start":620.912,"end":647.684,"text":"國際的宣傳這個部分剛才我已經提過了希望你們去加強啊對於有效的這種你們的計畫都都寫得很清楚啊叫有效開拓客源的計畫但是看起來都無效啊花了17億18億然後國際旅客的印象還是固定就是西門町啦101啦龍山寺啦新的旅遊圖像應該要被建立啦"},{"start":648.072,"end":663,"text":"各地的這樣的一個中南部的花東的都要納入這樣的一個觀光旅遊特色另外我們國際旅客減少啊當然花蓮的這個地震也是有影響尤其是日本跟韓國的旅客啊"},{"start":663.72,"end":682.998,"text":"他們對於太魯閣修立的壯觀的景色是觀光的一大重點但是因為地震之後相關的這些日本、韓國的旅客來的意願就比較降低這也是我們國際觀光的一個問題那針對花蓮跟台東的旅遊"},{"start":684.34,"end":701.179,"text":"太魯閣這樣的一個特色啊當然需要生態的休養生息這是要一段時間的啦要一段時間我認為啊應該針對花東的旅遊啊應該要建立他新的區域旅遊的一個品牌是"},{"start":701.819,"end":717.567,"text":"建立套裝新的套裝旅遊路線投注資源讓整體的台灣的觀光能夠整體串聯起來交通的問題啦這因為時間的關係那希望部長多加的督促我們對於觀光的"},{"start":719.528,"end":734.809,"text":"成績國旅真的是勉強及格對於國際旅遊的這樣一個人次的成長緩慢停滯我們真的是非常的不滿意這個部長跟署長要全力的督促這個要努力好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":312,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時45分）謝謝召委，請一下陳世凱部長，觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：部長應該是去年9月就任？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：到現在也應該半年多了？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：觀光發展是交通部重要的責任跟重要的工作，我們來看整體觀光發展在這一年多來的狀況，現在國旅逐漸恢復到疫情之前的水準，這個表現算是勉強及格，當然還有很多議題，包括交通路線、房價過高等等，觀光品質還是必須要做改進。國際旅遊的部分，我們的旅遊跟疫情之前來比較，我認為表現……我必須要很嚴肅的講，表現是不及格的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們來看出國的旅客人次，臺灣的出國旅客人次，如果用2019年跟2024年來做比較，現在出國的人數越來越多，也逐漸恢復到疫情之前的水準，恢復到98.52%的水準，而且必須要注意的是，年輕人出國的比例越來越高，越來越不想在臺灣國內旅遊。另外，來臺的旅客人次更是讓我們擔憂，在2024年只有785萬，2019年有1,186萬的旅遊人次，我們恢復的比例只有66.23%，部長，這樣是不行的！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：來，你有什麼想法？你來半年多了，對於觀光的議題，我知道你有在進行了解，你有什麼想法？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實來臺旅客人次這幾年雖然都在增加，但是我們復甦的速度比起其他國家實在是有些慢，這個部分我們應該要再加強。我覺得有幾個點，包含剛剛洪孟楷委員質詢的內容，有一些國外旅客要來亞洲的時候，臺灣不是首選，甚至連前面幾名都排不到，這個是我們要檢討的，也就是我們在國外的行銷……剛剛委員有提到，現在年輕人很喜歡出國，他出國的時候，在他的心裡面一定有一個圖像，哪個地方好玩，他就會想去，代表臺灣現在在其他各國年輕人或旅客心裡面的那個圖像不夠明顯，所以第一個我們行銷的問題必須要解決。對於行銷，我們的費用有開始漸漸增加，也漸漸看到成效，不過我們可以再針對行銷的方式做檢討，行銷的方式會不會剛好沒有打中人心，這個部分我們要去思考。","第二個，包含剛剛所講的行銷，過去我們在各國的服務據點是不夠的，其實我們這兩年在各國的觀光服務據點也不斷在提升，這個部分是很重要要處理的。第三個更重要的是，旅客來臺灣第一次之後會不會想要再來第二次，如果要讓他來第二次，那品質就很重要，臺灣要好玩到品質夠好，這個部分就牽扯到人才，看我們的觀光人才夠不夠，所以我們觀光研訓院會在今年年底成立，觀光人才是打底的工作，我們必須把它打好，讓國外的旅客來到臺灣之後，有第一次還會有第二次，甚至會帶其他旅客來。"],["李委員昆澤：好，部長剛才提到國外旅客對於臺灣的觀光印象到底是什麼，我們有國際觀光宣傳的經費……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：在觀光基金裡面有精準客源的開拓計畫，今年應該編列了大概17億左右，我們的觀光宣導有這麼多的經費，但是我認為一直做得不好，針對所有的觀光旅客、國際旅客，以2024年觀光署自己的報告，國際旅客對臺灣的觀光印象是什麼？就是101、故宮、西門町、信義商業區這些，再加個淡水，頂多再加上阿里山、日月潭等等，他們的印象一直是這樣，我們對於各地的宣導不足，建立區域旅遊品牌特色的火力不夠，做得也不好，宣導也不夠，這十幾年來一直要求觀光署，除了針對這些觀光客既有的印象之外，你們應該加強其他地區的區域旅遊特色，這必須要做改進。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，我們來看一下，以日本的經驗來說，現在有很多人希望有特別的國家來支持臺灣的旅遊，也就是說中國，中國來，我們的觀光業就能夠一飛沖天，就能大幅發展。我們來看2024年各國國際旅客的統計，日本有3,687萬人次，已經超越2019年，創下歷史新高，我們才66%；韓國有1,637萬人次，是2019年的94%，我們66%；2024年到日本的中國旅客比2019年還要少了260萬，但是他們東亞跟歐美的旅客是大幅增加，國際旅客創下歷史新高。部長，你要特別注意2024年中國出國的人次統計，他們比2019年還要少874萬人次。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們推動觀光發展要依靠良好的旅遊品質，建立區域旅遊的特色、臺灣的特色，不是依靠特定的國家，請部長簡單說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，確實我們這幾年也在轉型當中，我們在疫情之前跟現在相比的話，中國的旅客減少兩百多萬人次，但最近我們臺灣，以去年來講，比起前年，我們日本客增加了百分之四十幾，韓國客也增加百分之三十、四十，尤其是歐美客增加了百分之二十幾，我們現在正在拓展中國以外的重要旅客區域，這部分其實在去年有一些斬獲，不過我們還可以再加強，我們確實是要好好的努力，要向日本學習。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，來看看我們的觀光面臨什麼困境。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：第一個，觀光的同質性高，缺乏特色魅力，缺乏區域的景點品牌，臺灣老街的特色都差不多，賣的東西也差不多，我們的落羽松，你種我也種，大家都在種；櫻花也是，你種我也種；還有像什麼觀景臺、觀景高臺，你做我也做；你有親水公園，我也來弄個親水公園，沒有形成地方區域旅遊的特色。","另外，旅遊品質不佳，疫情期間我們的轉型跟改善做得不夠，當初疫情剛發生時我就一再的督促，以日本、香港、新加坡、韓國具體的中長期改善計畫來講，我們沒有落實、沒有做好。另外還有數位應用、資訊及交通整合不佳，這也是一個問題，還有宣傳與特色無法結合，缺乏核心客群。部長，面對這種同質性高、區域特色無法建立的困境，你們有什麼具體的做法跟想法？"],["陳部長世凱：在疫情的過程當中，這個部分應該是我們打底的好時機，確實過去有幾年的時間該做沒做，這點我們虛心檢討。我們現在要把整體的旅遊品質建立起來，包含我們跟各地的商圈也要溝通，以商業來講，看看大家有沒有各自的觀光特色可以提供給旅客，這個部分大家有一點區隔性會比較好。至於委員所提到的數位應用的部分，我們跟工研院那邊也有在合作，也就是說，數位應用的部分我們過去沒有跟上，包含資訊運用的部分，我們現在正在加強當中。"],["李委員昆澤：現在有地震警報，時間先暫停。","好，希望大家都平安。"],["陳部長世凱：大家平安！"],["李委員昆澤：另外，對於相關的觀光旅遊，補助當然有效，但不是長遠之計。"],["陳部長世凱：當然、當然。"],["李委員昆澤：我們應該以區域特色來建立長期觀光發展的模式，仿效日本的政策白皮書，召集地方歷史文化、具產業特色的自治團體或組織，結合當地民眾及中小微型商家共同參與，建立地方參與的發展模式，以地方特色為基礎來規劃觀光文化品牌的產業經營策略，建立具有地方特色的觀光品牌。二十多年前我去紐約的旅遊局參訪，紐約市政府旅遊局的經費一半是觀光產業界出的錢，一半是政府出的錢，他們共同推出適合的旅遊局局長人選，以推動他們的旅遊。要有產業界的參與啦！我一直提醒署長還有部長，要跟觀光產業界多對話，瞭解困境並提供相關的建議，讓他們知道政府的努力。","國際宣傳的部分我剛才已經提過了，希望你們去做有效的加強。你們的計畫都寫得很清楚，說是有效開拓客源的計畫，但是看起來都無效啊！花了十七、八億，國際旅客的印象還是固定在西門町、101、龍山寺。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們要檢討，新的旅遊圖像應該要被建立啦！"],["李委員昆澤：各地的、中南部的、花東的，都要納入這樣的觀光旅遊特色！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，我們的國際旅客減少當然花蓮的地震也是有影響，尤其是日本跟韓國的旅客，他們都將太魯閣秀麗、壯觀的景色列為觀光的一大重點，但是地震之後，日本、韓國旅客前來的意願就比較低，這也是我們國際觀光的一個問題。","針對花蓮跟臺東的旅遊，太魯閣這樣的特色當然需要生態的休養生息，這要一段時間。我認為應該針對花東建立新的區域旅遊的品牌、新的套裝旅遊路線並投注資源，讓臺灣的觀光能夠整體串連起來。交通問題因為時間的關係，希望部長多加督促。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["李委員昆澤：在觀光成績方面，國旅真的是勉強及格，對於國際旅遊的人次成長緩慢、停滯，我們真的是非常不滿意，部長跟署長要全力督促。"],["陳部長世凱：是的，這個要努力。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-6","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","黃健豪","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","陳素月","林國成","陳雪生","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","游顥","楊瓊瓔","黃建賓","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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部長委員長今天洋洋灑灑非常多的一個業務喔但是我想一個一個來我今天總共分三個部分一個是機場的管理一個是國旅的狀況還有我們世界遊客的一個吸引首先第一我不知道"},{"start":33.59,"end":50.809,"text":"部長我們兩三個禮拜前也去參訪陶基嘛然後也看了第三航廈的一個工程那我們也認為重大工程對於我們國家的發展絕對有正向的一個幫助那您知道2024年我們陶基的排名在全世界是第幾名嗎"},{"start":52.069,"end":76.86,"text":"六十幾 六十六那確實差強人意 為什麼因為2023年是82有進步但是不夠好因為我們最好的時候曾經到13名那請教現在有沒有掌握今年有可能往前或是往後的排名我想今年的部分排名應該是會往前啦你知道什麼時候會公佈嗎"},{"start":81.289,"end":95.082,"text":"今天 朝偉排得非常好今天此時此刻馬德里4月9號當然有時差的問題可是在馬德里會公布今年的排名那我們想知道"},{"start":97.769,"end":125.97,"text":"來沒關係資料問清楚一點再回答想知道就是說那我們目前掌握的狀況因為以往都跟我們推說是因為疫情的關係所以說我們的排名往後落後但全世界都受到疫情的影響是 報告委員那現在也已經恢復了我們也期待是好的排名我們去年比前年好那今年的排名也會比去年好但是詳細的這個數字我們要尊重這個主辦的單位由他們來公布這個部分我們不能講但是能夠確定的是我們是"},{"start":127.371,"end":152.157,"text":"會比去年再往前我們會比去年再更好我們都希望好還要更好那最好是要回復到我們最好的排名13名的時候甚至更超前可是我們現在看到桃園機場到第三航廈整個完成的時候佔多少的這個旅客運量一年4500萬那去年我們的這個旅客運量有多少"},{"start":157.747,"end":179.54,"text":"4400多萬是所以換言之其實我們並沒有超前部署因為到目前你看啊現在的狀況一行下二行下加起來是3000多萬人口可是因為我們現在是爆量所以說到2027年年底才開始使用的這個第三行下即便是它完成那那個時候也跟我們現在的一個運量差不多"},{"start":180.339,"end":208.081,"text":"那我們有什麼樣的辦法更加提升我們整體的服務一方面我們現在既有的行下它的效率的提升其實我們整體的這個運量可以再提升一些那另外就是我們在九月份或者是在今年年底之前我們的這個北郎廳也就是第三行下的北郎廳如果啟用的話其實它的整體的運量也可以再提升一些是啦部長我剛剛已經跟你請教嘛你說當今天是你們的資料給我的資料嘛第三行下整個啟用之後"},{"start":209.042,"end":230.061,"text":"上限是四千五百萬嘛是不是光是三行下OK光三行下就可以四千五百萬所以說整體的提升可以有更高是不是整體來說的話如果T1加T2加T3的話加起來是八千多萬所以預計沒有到八千多萬啦但預計就是會有更高的一個提升好來"},{"start":232.063,"end":246.601,"text":"那再來我想請教一下在國旅的一個部分其實連鎖反應也是我們現在有看到就是說整體的一個成本因為從去年年底開始就有跟環境部這邊有做一次性的備品是不能使用的"},{"start":247.102,"end":271.757,"text":"是 對不對好 可是馬上就會有民眾反應就是說到目前為止我們明明已經講說不是說一次限備品不給使用而是說不應該主動的提供是 不主動提供對 可是可以用購買或是說用可以購買或者詢問的方式來 我們來看一下部長有沒有看到1月時候的新聞這個新政策上路之後其實很多的"},{"start":272.915,"end":288.117,"text":"不管是我們的這些觀光客我們的一個相關人員就開始要講啊就說我只需要牙膏牙刷但是他告訴我們這一些有一些旅館告訴我們就是說他全套是要用販賣的那反而會造成更不環保的狀況來再看下一頁"},{"start":289.431,"end":313.439,"text":"你說要花一百塊去買備品我想備品一百塊但是裡面會去全套所以反而他有一些東西他不需要反而沒有用到更不環保那甚至他做出來的結論就是說其實這根本就是省成本嘛變成變相的漲價飯店業者沒有準備這樣的一個物品然後變相的漲價給這個住客來去做一個使用再來"},{"start":315.148,"end":329.371,"text":"不提供所以說甚至那個時候還傳出說沐浴乳也沒有提供後來證實是說要提供的是大容量的沐浴乳可是最後又有人講是說國旅反而是雪上加霜"},{"start":330.592,"end":348.924,"text":"部長現在政策上路業已經三個多月了有沒有注意到這樣的狀況以及現在到底我們的飯店業者他們提供備品的一個狀況是什麼報告委員您剛剛所提到的沒有錯我們這個是配合環境部的政策所以整體的這個飯店必須要來配合那這三個月我們除了輔導我們的業者"},{"start":350.705,"end":373.743,"text":"讓我們的旅客能夠更方便的取用之外那如果有遇到的所謂的您剛剛所提的那幾個亂象的部分我們也會盡量去輔導業者也跟業者去溝通怎麼樣讓民眾更便利的能夠取得到他需要的東西那另外就是說針對這個100塊它是一整套的我想有可能是因為飯店業者他們如果還要再分批"},{"start":374.923,"end":391.918,"text":"來包裝的話對他們來講是可能人力上的成本會提高是人力上的成本所以他就是用整套的他看起來他是整套他其實是散裝但是他看起來他是用整套來販售所以某種無形當中是一個變相的漲價部長環境部會推給說這個主管機關是我們觀光署"},{"start":396.48,"end":419.708,"text":"是我們交通部 交通部現在又推給環境部但是我們現在要看的是 最重點在於是說我們不希望因為國旅大家過去最常被人家詬病 國旅是什麼問題價格嘛 房價太高嘛那現在在這樣子的一個政策上路之後 又變成影響到人家大家會覺得是說好像無形變價又漲價"},{"start":422.359,"end":439.92,"text":"跟委員報告一下如果是個案的部分我們也很樂意大家告訴我們我們會個案來做處理那通案的部分其實我們也在這個要求到目前為止我們掌握多少飯店他是如果說在櫃台或說他可以來提供只要有旅客有詢問是"},{"start":441.261,"end":468.993,"text":"現在大概六都的部分大概都比較就是說已經那有關於非六都的部分我們也持續在關心那麼我們也跟工協會也正式行為給工協會那這些部分我們同步來做那當然也是呼籲我們只是說他索取的話如果有那當然要免費提供但是他如果比較精美的比較自己額外的希望有一個部分他是可以收費那這個部分我們已經通案去要求了"},{"start":471.266,"end":485.817,"text":"組長這個部分是不是可以再給本席相關資料好針對我們怎麼樣來跟旅館公會業者溝通那並且重點在於是不要讓消費者認為說我們的房價一直居高不下是來部長最後"},{"start":486.818,"end":505.248,"text":"我們今年的觀光人口人數預計目標如果要說目標的話我去年有說過去年沒達成的我們今年來達成那也就是說去年所定的目標是1000萬我們今年盡量朝1000萬的目標有機會嗎第一季我們的觀光人口數有多少我們第一季已經到210萬210萬"},{"start":508.69,"end":515.115,"text":"那如果說照這樣子的一個推估比起去年成長了差不多3%左右啦是我有看到你們的新聞稿但是第一季210萬我們剛剛報告的時候有講到美國關稅的問題全球性的一個衝擊有可能會造成"},{"start":526.374,"end":545.304,"text":"相對應的很多產業都受到連結我們自己觀光業其實也有也很有可能會受到連結跟波動對不對因為如果說整體的一個經濟下滑或者是通貨膨脹甚至有無薪假還失業率的一個部分的話其實觀光也會受到影響有沒有算過我們在這一次的一個關稅因應"},{"start":547.248,"end":568.869,"text":"報告委員我覺得這個部分關稅到現在大家都說影響非常大但是實際的影響到底有多少我相信各國到目前為止沒有一個數字所以它到底影響到什麼程度什麼層面我們現在只能觀察但你說現在要仔細計算出來說實在的台灣到底現在關稅是百分之三十二還是百分之多少政府要去談"},{"start":569.81,"end":595.928,"text":"還有就是我們相關的一些政策要去做調整嘛來但是部長我不希望是我們的自我感覺良好是因為我沒有看到另外的一個資訊喔來下一張針對國際上的一個統計其實就亞洲國家來講2024年觀光客願意來亞洲玩那並且他來去做一個旅遊的時候其實台灣是倒數"},{"start":598.75,"end":622.166,"text":"這確實這是很客觀的一個數字確實倒數那我們現在在看到你報告裡面也有提到我們也希望是說針對這一次的這個相關的一些活動這也是過去本席也一直提到就是說我們也要結合不要說只是單打獨鬥是相關的一個活動能夠來去亮點吸引更多的一個觀光客所以你這邊有提到說114年世界壯年運動會賞鳥博覽會露營大會等等在台灣舉辦"},{"start":626.849,"end":647.376,"text":"那世界壯年運動會雙北舉辦也在一個月就要上場了有沒有掌握這一次世界壯年運動會我們會有多少的一個觀光客的人數目前的話是新北市跟台北市的觀傳局跟觀旅局我們保持密切聯繫那他們也希望能夠多一些能夠提前來"},{"start":648.696,"end":667.347,"text":"來旅遊或者是延後回去我現在在問的是數字有沒有掌握能夠增加多少看部長這邊的微笑我想是說第一季的210萬可能對部長來講這個是一個最低的標準我們也希望逐步的提高第二季 第三季尤其是暑假的旺季還沒有到來"},{"start":668.047,"end":687.392,"text":"那但是一樣嘛你現在既然會列出來是說我們有相關的一個活動那就代表是說本席也期待你們應該是要更積極的來去做宣傳宣導甚至利用這樣的一個機會為期兩個禮拜的時間全世界的運動員都來到台灣的時候可以有增加更多的亮點甚至引導他們不只是在雙北地區"},{"start":688.032,"end":706.87,"text":"是台中高雄台南花蓮台東也都可以去玩啊特別跟委員報告一下那現在掌握了多少我們針對這個壯年運動會的部分我們有跟新北市跟台北市有一個合作那他也有獎勵措施我們也有獎勵措施是那這個獎勵措施的部分不能重複特別跟委員報告一下所以預計"},{"start":707.631,"end":728.291,"text":"但是實際的申請數還不明確那現在掌握了有多少觀光客會過來或是說飯店現在在居住那兩個禮拜的時間入住率我們有保持聯繫啦但是因為新北市跟台北市還沒有具體的數字告訴我們我們會持續跟他保持聯繫署長 副長"},{"start":731.34,"end":755.461,"text":"我想這是你們的報告既然你們在提供給立法院講到說會以相關的主題宣傳並且來適逢相關的活動來去做推廣本席認同本席更希望看到說不是只是寫在紙上好看而是真真正正能夠利用機會借力使力搭順風車讓"},{"start":757.743,"end":770.753,"text":"效益能夠出來這是為什麼我現在在請教還剩一個月不到照理講如果說你們認為這是真的很重要或說真的很可以協助宣傳的你們應該現在已經可以掌握了這一點"},{"start":773.654,"end":791.4,"text":"我們宿外的16個處都有在幫忙行銷好 署長你剛剛講說你是不是可以再整理相關資料提供給本席並且也提供給本席相關你們的成效預計推廣會因為這樣子有帶來什麼樣的一個效力可以嗎是好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":209,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時31分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳世凱部長，如果有問到相關業務，也請相關同仁直接上來。"],["主席：好，先請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，今天洋洋灑灑非常多的業務，但是我想一個一個來，總共分三個部分，一個是機場的管理、一個是國旅的狀況，還有我們世界遊客的吸引。首先第一，部長，我們兩、三個禮拜前去參訪桃機嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：也看第三航廈的工程，我們認為重大工程對於我們國家的發展有絕對正向的幫助，您知道2024年桃機的排名在全世界是第幾名嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：66名。"],["洪委員孟楷：66名，確實差強人意，為什麼？因為2023年是82名，雖有進步，但是……"],["陳部長世凱：有進步，但不夠好。"],["洪委員孟楷：不夠好，因為我們最好的時候曾經到13名，請教現在有沒有掌握今年的排名，有可能往前或是往後？"],["陳部長世凱：我想今年的排名應該會往前啦，我們看到的訊息應該是會往前。"],["洪委員孟楷：你知道什麼時候會公布嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這兩天會公布。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：召委排得非常好，今天、此時此刻，在馬德里4月9號，當然會有時差的問題，可是在馬德里會公布今年的排名，我們想知道啊！沒關係，資料問清楚一點再回答，我想知道我們目前掌握的狀況，因為以往都跟我們推說是因為疫情的關係，所以我們的排名往後、落後，但全世界都受到疫情的影響，現在也已經恢復了，我們也期待是好的排名、往前。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們去年比前年好，今年的排名也會比去年好，但是詳細的數字我們要尊重主辦的單位，由他們來公布，這個部分我們不能講，但是能夠確定的是我們會再往前。"],["洪委員孟楷：有信心會比去年再往前？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們會比去年再更好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們都希望好還要更好，最好是要回復到我們最好的排名13名的時候，甚至更超前。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個要努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：可是我們現在看到桃園機場到第三航廈整個完成的時候，一年占多少的旅客運量？"],["陳部長世凱：4,500萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：4,500萬？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：去年我們的旅客運量有多少？"],["陳部長世凱：四千四百多萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，換言之，其實我們並沒有超前部署喔！因為到目前，你看現在的狀況，一航廈、二航廈加起來是三千多萬人口，可是因為我們現在是爆量，所以到2027年年底才開始使用第三航廈，即便它完成，那個時候也跟我們現在的運量差不多。我們有什麼樣的辦法，更加提升我們整體的服務？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，一方面我們現在既有航廈效率的提升，整體的運量可以再提升一些，另外在9月份，或者是在今年年底之前，我們的北廊廳，也就是第三航廈的北廊廳如果啟用的話，其實它整體的運量也可以再提升一些。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啦，部長，我剛剛已經跟你請教，今天是你們給我的資料嘛，第三航廈整個啟用之後，上限是4,500萬，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是，光是三航廈。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK，光是三航廈就可以4,500萬，所以說整體的提升可以更高，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：對啊，整體來說，如果T1加T2加T3的話，加起來是八千多萬的運量。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有到八千多萬啦，但是預計就是會有更高的提升？"],["陳部長世凱：是，必然的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。再來，我想請教一下在國旅的部分，其實連鎖反應也是我們現在有看到的，整體的成本……因為從去年年底開始，環境部宣布一次性備品是不能使用的，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。可是馬上就有民眾反映，到目前為止，我們明明已經講不是一次性備品不給使用，而是不應該主動地提供。"],["陳部長世凱：是，不主動提供。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，可是可以用購買，或是說用……"],["陳部長世凱：可以購買或者索取。"],["洪委員孟楷：詢問的方式嘛！我們來看一下，部長有沒有看到1月的新聞？這個新政策上路之後，其實很多不管是這些觀光客或相關人員就開始講，我只需要牙膏、牙刷，但是有一些旅館告訴我們全套是要用販賣的，反而會造成更不環保的狀況。你說要花100塊去買備品，我想備品100塊，但是裡面會是全套，反而有一些東西他不需要，反而沒有用到、更不環保，甚至他做出來的結論其實這根本就是省成本嘛！變成變相的漲價，飯店業者沒有準備這樣的物品，然後變相漲價給住客使用。再來，不提供，甚至那個時候還傳出沐浴乳也沒有提供，後來證實要提供的是大容量的沐浴乳，可是最後，又有人講國旅反而是雪上加霜啊！部長，現在政策上路也已經三個多月了，有沒有注意到這樣的狀況？以及現在到底我們的飯店業者提供備品的狀況是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛剛所提到的沒有錯，我們是配合環境部的政策，所以整體的飯店必須要配合，這三個月我們除了輔導業者讓旅客能夠更方便的取用之外，如果有遇到您剛剛所提的那幾個亂象的部分，我們也會儘量輔導業者，也跟業者溝通，怎麼樣讓民眾更便利的能夠取得他需要的東西。另外，針對100塊，它是一整套的，我想有可能是因為飯店業者，如果他們還要再分批來包裝的話，對他們來講可能人力上的成本會提高……"],["洪委員孟楷：是人力上的成本嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：所以他就是用整套的，對他來說相對是方便的。"],["洪委員孟楷：看起來它是整套，其實是散裝，但看起來他是用整套來販售，所以無形當中是變相的漲價啊！部長，環境部會推說主管機關是觀光署或者是交通部，交通部現在又推給環境部，但是我們現在要看的……"],["陳部長世凱：我們沒有推給環境部，該輔導、該溝通的部分，我們會處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以最重點在於我們不希望因為……國旅大家過去最常被人家詬病是什麼問題？"],["陳部長世凱：價格嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：價格嘛！房價太高嘛！現在這樣一個政策上路之後，又變成影響到人家，大家會覺得好像無形變相又漲價。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告一下，如果是個案的部分，我們也樂意大家告訴我們，我們會個案來做處理；通案的部分，其實我們也在要求……"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止，我們掌握多少飯店，如果是在櫃臺或者只要有旅客詢問它可以來提供，有沒有？"],["周署長永暉：是，現在六都的部分大概都已經……有關於非六都的部分，我們也持續在關心。我們也跟公協會……也正式行文給公協會，這些部分我們同步來做，當然也是呼籲民眾索取的話，業者如果有，當然要免費提供，但是如果比較精美的，自己額外希望的部分，是可以收費，這個部分我們已經通案去要求了。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，這個部分是不是可以再給本席相關資料？"],["周署長永暉：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對我們怎麼樣來跟旅館、公會業者溝通，重點在於不要讓消費者認為我們的房價一直居高不下。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，最後，我們今年的觀光人數預計的目標？"],["陳部長世凱：如果要說目標的話，我去年有說過，去年沒達成的，我們今年來達成，也就是去年所訂的目標是1,000萬，我們今年儘量朝1,000萬的目標。"],["洪委員孟楷：有機會嗎？第一季我們的觀光人口數有多少？"],["陳部長世凱：我們第一季已經到210萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果照這樣子的推估……"],["陳部長世凱：比起去年成長差不多百分之三左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我有看到你們的新聞稿。"],["陳部長世凱：但是這個數字可能……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是第一季210萬，我們剛剛報告有講到美國關稅的問題，全球性的衝擊，有可能會造成相對應很多產業都受到牽連，我們自己觀光業其實也很有可能會受到連結跟波動，對不對？如果說整體的經濟下滑或者是通貨膨脹，甚至有無薪假、失業率的部分的話，其實觀光也會受到影響。有沒有算過我們在這一次關稅的因應？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得這個部分，關稅到現在大家都說影響非常大，但是實際的影響到底有多少，我相信各國到目前為止沒有一個數字，所以到底影響到什麼程度、什麼層面，我們現在只能觀察。但你說現在要仔細計算出來，說實在的，臺灣到底現在關稅是32%還是百分之多少，這個還沒有定數。"],["洪委員孟楷：政府要去談嘛，還有我們相關的一些政策要去做調整嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以這個部分我們一定會滾動去觀察及檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我不希望我們的自我感覺良好，因為我們有看到另外一個針對國際上的統計資訊，其實就亞洲國家來講，2024年觀光客願意來亞洲玩，並且他來旅遊，其實臺灣是倒數，這確實是很客觀的數字，確實倒數。我們現在再看到你報告裡面也有提到，我們也希望針對這一次相關的一些活動，這是過去本席也一直提到的，我們也要結合，不要說只是單打獨鬥，相關的活動能夠有亮點，吸引更多的觀光客。所以，你有提到114年世界壯年運動會、賞鳥博覽會、露營大會等等在臺灣舉辦，世界壯年運動會在雙北舉辦，也再一個月就要上場了，有沒有掌握這一次世界壯年運動會，我們會有多少觀光客的人數？"],["陳部長世凱：我請署長。"],["周署長永暉：我們目前是跟新北市及臺北市的觀傳局跟觀旅局保持密切聯繫，他們也希望能夠多一些人提前來旅遊，或者是延後回去……"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，我現問的是數字，有沒有掌握能夠增加多少？看部長的微笑，我想第一季的210萬，可能對部長來講這個是一個最低的標準啦！我們也希望逐步的提高，第二季、第三季，尤其是暑假的旺季還沒有到來……"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是一樣嘛，你現在既然會列出來你們有相關的活動，那就代表本席也期待你們應該要更積極的去做宣傳、宣導，甚至利用這樣的機會，為期兩個禮拜的時間，全世界的運動員都來到臺灣的時候，可以增加更多的亮點，甚至引導他們不只是在雙北地區……"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺中、高雄、臺南、花蓮、臺東也都可以去玩啊！"],["周署長永暉：特別跟委員報告一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在掌握了多少？"],["周署長永暉：針對壯年運動會的部分，我們跟新北市和臺北市有一個合作，他們有獎勵措施，我們也有獎勵措施……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["周署長永暉：這個獎勵措施不能重複，特別跟委員報告一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以預計成效會有多少？"],["周署長永暉：但是實際的申請數還不明確。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在掌握了有多少觀光客會過來？或是那兩個禮拜的時間，飯店的入住率？"],["周署長永暉：我們有保持聯繫，但是因為新北市跟臺北市還沒有具體的數字告訴我們，我們會持續跟他們保持聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長、部長，我想這是你們的報告……"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：既然你們提供給立法院的資料講到會以相關的主題宣傳，並且適逢相關的活動去做推廣，本席認同，本席更希望看到這不只是寫在紙上好看，而是真真正正能夠利用機會、借力使力、搭順風車，讓效益能夠出來……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是為什麼我現在請教的，還剩一個月不到，照理講，如果你們認為這個真的很重要，或者真的可以協助宣傳的，你們應該現在已經可以掌握了。"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一點，署長你剛剛講說……"],["周署長永暉：我們駐外16個處都已經在幫忙行銷……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，署長你剛剛講，你是不是可以再整理相關資料提供給本席？"],["周署長永暉：可以、可以，我們會後給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：並且也提供給本席你們預計推廣的成效，會因為這樣子帶來什麼樣的效益，可以嗎？"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。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我們請教育部陸委會跟移民署好 麻煩三位上台好 首先 先恭喜 感謝這個我們陸委會 移民署你們最近幹的大事都是對的台灣人民都聽你們"},{"start":34.246,"end":38.649,"text":"我們稍微仔細講講 哇 現在這陸委會叫移民署 這麼強的台灣人這麼強的處理台灣 叫中國的問題 兩個 先給你們感謝"},{"start":47.83,"end":56.352,"text":"教育部次長,請問最近美國國務卿魯比歐外國核心要去美國討論要辦簽證,說要開始啟動社群言論的審查,你有沒有掌握這個訊息?"},{"start":68.82,"end":94.131,"text":"有看到報導 但是不清楚 詳細的資料你這樣沒人精 我早上睡就打了 你都沒人精看他們就通令他們在美國的各外館美國在各地的外館如果那些國家的核心要來美國註冊申請學生簽證要對他的這一些過去的一些主張啊只要危害到美國 應該是美國利益啦他就有一些心災啦所以我們台灣剛好在開始啟動這個事情"},{"start":97.618,"end":112.265,"text":"這部分我們有涉及到國安或者是其他的那個陸委會或國安單位他們那邊會先審查會先審查對如果來申請要來做教育譬如教育文化交流的時候會先經過那邊來審查好那既然有審查那陸委會你們會怎麼審查"},{"start":117.64,"end":143.505,"text":"如果委員講的是學生的部分學生的部分我們目前對學生的部分確實是沒有我們是對於來交流的學者或是教育界或是文化界的人士我們會review他的過去的言論跟一些立場包括有沒有矮化台灣的地位等等但是對學生的部分"},{"start":143.985,"end":154.527,"text":"目前確實是沒有所以是入台症的部分就對了對就是短期來交流的對沒錯那學生沒有學生沒有那你認為學生該不該審查好這題太難了你回答他先看看謝謝委員提示我們會去適合這個問題第二個你們有沒有發現有職業學生職業學生過去確實有有喔過去確實有存在有發現沒有"},{"start":173.871,"end":189.327,"text":"我發現,有查到,要請他們回去嗎?過去確實有這樣的例子要請他們回去嗎?只要我們有發現,都會請他們回去你們有發現嗎?過去有例子啦你講得很保守"},{"start":191.656,"end":209.945,"text":"那接下來就說,不管是中國學生或外國學生都一樣,教育部有這些人就要申請學生簽證來台灣要在社群裡面,每天都要發,台灣是中國的一部分"},{"start":211.833,"end":228.461,"text":"台灣是中國一部分,不然就像上次那些中國職業學生來台灣交流,是要罵那些基金會啊那些什麼中國台灣隊、中國台北隊,這種的這個核心啊,像這種的像這種的喔,理政委啦,或是你們對於研究看來像這種的喔,要申請來台灣讀書,過去不要來啦"},{"start":235.066,"end":252.262,"text":"他的言論如果涉及矮化台灣有涉及到國安的問題我們也一樣會請外交或者是陸委會這邊來做一個審查說他們這樣的言論是否適宜來訪這部分是有一些管制的好 我說這事情會越來越嚴重會越來越嚴重他們一定會職業學生就訓練好才會來來這裡做統戰的第二"},{"start":263.093,"end":285.912,"text":"市長 教育部市長 你知不知道去年 一整年 台灣的學生被推到中國交流的多少團 多少人 你知道嗎目前 詳細的資料他都有登錄啦 有一個登錄平台那那個詳細的資料 我這邊這事情多嚴重今天一個暑假 應該差不多兩百團有啦暑假喔"},{"start":290.567,"end":311.559,"text":"台灣的阿新喔 希望大氣中 這樣統戰我們兩霸團喔來 梁副主委喔 來我們台灣的阿新去那裡交流啊 去那裡坐桌子 叫人吃飯 開花啦各式各樣的民意啦 人家要跟我們統戰"},{"start":313.442,"end":322.488,"text":"我們有一個高雄立刻起身說 別吃了 我們回家 搞什麼東西我們是來讓你們統戰的 我們是來交流的 有人這樣嗎?沒有 我沒有聽過那都聽到之後才回來聽到之後 這個有高雄歡迎議會了嗎?沒有聽過沒有聽過 還繼續去對啊"},{"start":334.642,"end":362.266,"text":"繼續去,我們陸委會都不歡迎我應該這樣講就是說中國各級台辦他都有KPI就是一年要花多少預算然後要拉台灣多少青年學生到他們的比如說湖北省或是上海或是什麼每一個地方他都有這樣的KPI要拉多少人去對,然後就到我們的高中大學嘛"},{"start":362.526,"end":390.097,"text":"在台灣的高中大學那通常都不是透過校方而是透過學校裡面的某一個老師那個老師有嚴重喔 人家是要用社團 用學會還有那個老師直接大學開課對 總之我如果要做一段期的通識課沒有錯 要做一段期 去到那裡說教多少 讀多少 教多少教多少 啊 那就有那個台商出錢啦所以同學喔 那台商對我們很好所以你們基本也不用教那麼多啦有這種的對不對"},{"start":392.711,"end":417.783,"text":"當然有啊 現在譬如說就是你只要出機票費 然後落地 時數 全包然後還有一些什麼阿這你都沒有管喔 這要用通來通去 你都沒有管這個我們是長期都有在注意那我們會 如果有必要的話我們就會動用兩岸關係條例33條之一的合作行為或是其他的如果有涉及幫中共發展組織的話 那個就是用反滲透法"},{"start":418.803,"end":425.006,"text":"第三個 臺灣隊到冠軍 進入決賽 中國團 中國核心 自己這樣通知記者說就是他要說中國臺灣隊怎麼越來越高 那幾個 兩天可以來嗎"},{"start":440.393,"end":460.58,"text":"我們都有對於相關人士的發言但我們會有註記註記意思就是說,當你想要再進來台灣的時候我們在審查的過程之中,我們就會把你過去的言行給考慮進去沒有啦,你就直接...那新聞就不可以再來,還要審查,還要這麼狠,還要審查中國本宮說明,我們一眾要吃豆腐,要去中國台灣隊黨是在中國台灣隊"},{"start":468.343,"end":492.472,"text":"這個委員你放心,我們所謂的註記審查就是很嚴厲的審查好啦,我看你們都為了兩岸和諧,我知道啦,可是你們這次的手法怎麼也不錯啦好來,第三,我們現在要捏,這可能移民署齁,這中國人要捏中華民國的新聞情啦是現在有一些那些算是在倒空的,說什麼六年,該做四年啦是"},{"start":495.407,"end":504.712,"text":"我們的政府現在有說喔 我們現在境外敵對勢力就一共而已 叫中國了結果他們可以捏新穩定的連線是最大的越南馬來西亞越久 他們的馬來西亞越南 什麼泰國 黑米我們的境外敵對勢力喔 他們要捏我們的新穩定 老實說境外敵對勢力要捏新穩定 現在最低因為你們是在爭取什麼 這是你們規定還是什麼規定"},{"start":525.476,"end":533.946,"text":"事實上跟委員報告,由8年轉到6年,這個也都是經過那時候所有的一個修法,我們跟陸委會好,現在情勢變更"},{"start":537.714,"end":553.359,"text":"什麼改六改四 改到十啦 改到四 改回去 改回去十世界各國要來台灣捏新婚情的 都比照我們的外匯業 境外敵對勢力 要捏我們的新婚情 最低電到頭照 這樣對不對"},{"start":558.757,"end":567.993,"text":"你是不是在驚訝我們會跟陸委會 因為這是兩岸關係條例所規定的那我想委員的指導 我們會跟陸委會陸委會"},{"start":571.243,"end":598.28,"text":"你過去要創一個最大的 中國人創最大的唯一境外敵對勢力 只有中華民國身份證是全世界所要來的只有中華民國身份證的外國人 期限最大的我應該跟委員報告一下就是說外國人他其實是四到八年實際上是四年到八年那大陸人是四年到六年 他們有四年嗎"},{"start":599.541,"end":626.804,"text":"那實際上外國人不可能四年就拿到 不可能四年就拿到所以其實確實因為我們兩岸之間特殊的關係那從這個兩岸人民條例1992年到現在其實中間經過很多次的政黨輪替那很多的規定老實講就是在那個年代他有他的道理但是現在未必有道理最後我問一個問題要申請入台證"},{"start":628.145,"end":650.401,"text":"申請來台一親的這種居留證要申請中華民國身份證這三個證有哪幾個他要宣誓效忠中華民國以陸配來說沒有以陸配來說都沒有中國人要來納中華民國身份證他要宣誓效忠中華民國"},{"start":652.168,"end":666.595,"text":"沒有 目前的制度沒有這個部分我們有看到很多立委提出來要修法的工作所以我們覺得這個部分如果委員們的討論有取得共識我們也支持"},{"start":671.786,"end":685.794,"text":"你要中華民國身份證,不免宣誓效忠中華民國先來說我是中國人,我國家是中華人民共和國我就是因為我拿中華民國身份證而已,我沒有認同你啦,我就是中國人啦中華人民共和國他就比較好人啦我沒有認同你中華民國,我就是要拿那張啦,這還不太好啊這你也比較主動的,我們這個立法院喔,一大堆在那裡倒空的喔,那些人都不會有這個行為"},{"start":700.041,"end":724.086,"text":"國家要有台獨 國家要有台獨 台灣人在看是台獨美國這沒辦法 美國這大罷免 還要處理事情嘛啊 可是我們的政府要有台獨啊我們的政府這條 我說四年 八年 六年 最少啦你不要說境外敵對 最少你也叫各國的都一樣要全世界 台灣唯一的境外敵對勢力你要中華民國新聞局 你要最快"},{"start":727.671,"end":746.782,"text":"現在還要逼四年 要修啊 你要四年還不用效忠中華民國好 謝謝委員提醒 這個部分我們會去做制度上的檢討好 加油啦 這次陸委會叫移民署表現得很好繼續加油 我要跟你們講一件事你們要緊表態 加油 臨時再回到我再問一遍好 謝謝"},{"start":754.799,"end":755.666,"text":"那我們下一位請審發會委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時15分）主席，我們請教育部、陸委會跟移民署。"],["主席：麻煩三位上臺。"],["王委員義川：首先，先恭喜、感謝陸委會及移民署，你們最近幹的大事都是對的，臺灣人民都挺你們！我們所有的支持者都說：現在陸委會跟移民署真的是真正的臺灣人，真正在處理臺灣跟中國的問題。先跟兩位表達感謝。第二，請問一下教育部次長，最近美國國務卿盧比歐他們說外國學生要去美國讀書、辦簽證，要開始啟動對他們社群言論的審查，你有掌握這個訊息嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有看到報導，但是不清楚詳細的內容。"],["王委員義川：你這樣不認真，我昨天在Threads就發貼文了，你都不認真看，他們就通令美國在各地的外館，如果有那個國家的學生要來美國讀書、申請學生簽證，要對他過去的主張，只要危害到美國，應該是指美國利益，就會有一些審查，我們臺灣有開始啟動這些事情嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分有涉及到國安或者是其他跟陸委會或國安單位有關，他們那邊會先審查。"],["王委員義川：會先審查？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。如果申請要來做教育、文化交流的時候，會先經過那邊審查。"],["王委員義川：好！既然有審查，陸委會你們會怎麼審查？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果委員講的是學生的部分，我們目前對學生的部分確實是沒有，對於來交流的學者或是教育界、文化界的人士，我們會review他過去的言論跟一些立場，包括有沒有矮化臺灣的地位等等。"],["王委員義川：所以這算……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是對學生的部分目前確實是沒有。"],["王委員義川：所以這是入臺證的部分就對了？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員義川：就是短期來交流的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，沒錯。"],["王委員義川：學生沒有？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：學生沒有。"],["王委員義川：你認為學生該不該審查？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：呃……"],["王委員義川：好，這題太難，你回去想想看。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝委員提示，我們會去思考這個問題。"],["王委員義川：第二個，你們有沒有發現有職業學生？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：職業學生過去確實有。"],["王委員義川：有嘛？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去確實有存在。"],["王委員義川：有發現嗎？發現、查到，然後請他們回去嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去確實有這樣的例子。"],["王委員義川：有請他們回去嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：只要我們有發現都會請他們回去。"],["王委員義川：你們有發現嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去有例子。"],["王委員義川：你說得很保守。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員義川：接下來一樣，不管是不是中國學生，外國學生都一樣，教育部，如果有這些人要申請學生簽證來臺灣，他就在社群裡面每天都在喊臺灣是中國的一部分，不然就像上次馬英九基金會邀請中國職業學生來臺灣交流，來這邊說什麼中國臺灣隊、中國臺北隊，這種就是職業學生，像這種你認為……還是你要回去研究看看像這種如果申請要來臺灣讀書，乾脆不要讓他來了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：他的言論如果涉及矮化臺灣、涉及到國安的問題，我們也一樣會請外交部或者是陸委會來做審查，就是說他們這樣的言論是否適宜來訪，這部分是有一些管制的。"],["王委員義川：好，我說這事情會越來越嚴重，他們一定有職業學生，就是訓練好再來的，來這裡要做統戰的。第二，教育部次長，你知不知道去年一整年臺灣的學生被拖去中國交流的，多少團、多少人？你知道嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：詳細的資料都有登錄，有一個登錄平臺，詳細的資料我這邊……"],["王委員義川：這件事情多嚴重呢？恐怕一個暑假差不多有200團啦！暑假喔！臺灣的學生被拖去中國這樣做統戰的差不多200團喔！","梁副主委，我們臺灣的學生去那邊交流，坐在那邊和人家吃飯、開會等各式各樣的名義，人家在統戰，我們是否有教授立刻起身說：不要講了！我們回家！搞什麼東西！我們是來讓你們統戰的喔！我們是來交流的。有人這樣嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不曾，不曾聽過。"],["王委員義川：都是聽完再回來？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["王委員義川：聽完之後，有教授反映他後悔的嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不曾聽過。"],["王委員義川：不曾聽過，還繼續去？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是啊！"],["王委員義川：還繼續去？我們陸委會都沒反應？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有，我應該這樣講，就是說中國各級台辦都有KPI，就是一年要花多少預算，然後要拉臺灣多少青年學生到他們的譬如說湖北省，或是上海或是什麼，每一個地方都有這樣的KPI要拉多少人去。"],["王委員義川：對，然後就到我們的高中、大學嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：到臺灣的高中、大學，通常都不是透過校方，而是透過學校裡面的某一個老師。"],["王委員義川：透過老師就嚴重了，有時候用社團、用協會，還有老師直接在學校開課。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員義川：說他就是要組一團去，通識課。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯。"],["王委員義川：組團去，去到那邊說要交多少又多少，到最後呢？到最後說有臺商出錢，所以同學，臺商對我們很好，你們基本上也不用交那麼多啦！有這種對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然有！現在譬如說就是你只要出機票費，然後落地食宿全包，還有一些什麼旅遊景點……"],["王委員義川：這些你們都沒有管制，這種被統來統去的你們都沒有管制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們是長期都有在注意，如果有必要的話，我們就會動用兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一的合作行為，或是其他如果有涉及幫中共發展組織的話就是用反滲透法這樣。"],["王委員義川：第三個，上次我們臺灣隊得冠軍進入決賽，中國團的中國學生自己通知記者，就是他要說中國臺灣隊多厲害又多厲害，那幾個改天還可以再來嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們對於相關人士的發言都會有註記，註記的意思就是說當你想要再進來臺灣的時候，我們在審查的過程之中就會把你過去的言行考慮進去。"],["王委員義川：沒有啦！你就直接……那種身分就不能再來，那種還要審查？講得那麼誇張還要審查？中國棒球打不贏我們，連這種也要吃豆腐，什麼中國臺灣隊？什麼時候是中國臺灣隊？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，你放心！我們所謂的註記審查就是很嚴厲的審查。"],["王委員義川：好啦！反正你們都是為了兩岸和諧，我知道啦！可是你們這陣子的手法也不錯啦！","第三，這可能是移民署，中國人要領中華民國的身分證，現在有一些算是在「鬥空」的，說什麼6年要改成4年，我們政府現在有說我們境外敵對勢力就一國而已，叫中國，對不對？"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["王委員義川：結果他們可以領身分證的年限是最短的，越南、馬來西亞還更久，馬來西亞、越南、泰國那些不是我們的境外敵對勢力，他們要領我們的身分證更久，境外敵對勢力要領身分證現在是最短，移民署，你們是在「裝肖仔」喔！這是你們規定的還是誰規定的？"],["陳副署長建成：沒有，跟委員報告，事實上由8年轉到6年也都是經過那時候所有的修法，我們跟陸委會會商……"],["王委員義川：好，現在情勢變更了，什麼6改4，6要改到10，要改到4？改回去10，世界各國要來臺灣領身分證的都比照，哪有我們唯一的境外敵對勢力要領我們的身分證縮到最短，本末倒置，這樣對嗎？你們有在檢討嗎？"],["陳副署長建成：我們會會同陸委會，因為這是兩岸人民關係條例所規定的，我想委員的指導，我們會跟陸委會共同來……"],["王委員義川：陸委會，你們過去怎麼用一個最短的，中國人用最短，唯一境外敵對勢力領中華民國身分證，是全世界最想要來領中華民國身分證的外國人，期限卻最短。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告一下，外國人其實是4到8年，實際上是4年到8年。"],["王委員義川：你不要亂講，有人4年的嗎？你告訴我。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：大陸人是4年到6年。"],["王委員義川：他們有4年的嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：實際上外國人不可能4年拿到。"],["王委員義川：對嘛！你就說那個誇張的。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不可能4年就拿到，所以確實因為我們兩岸之間特殊的關係，兩岸人民關係條例從1992年到現在，其實中間經過很多次政黨輪替，很多規定老實講就是在那個年代有它的道理，但是現在未必有道理。"],["王委員義川：好，請你們回去研究一下。","最後我問一個問題，要申請入臺證、申請來臺依親的這種居留證或要申請中華民國身分證，這3個證有哪幾個要宣誓效忠中華民國？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：以陸配來說，沒有。"],["王委員義川：什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：以陸配來說都沒有。"],["王委員義川：中國人要來領中華民國身分證，他不用宣誓效忠中華民國？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有。"],["王委員義川：沒有！這不用改？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：目前的制度沒有。"],["王委員義川：這不用改？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分我們有看到很多立委提出來要修法的工作，所以我們覺得這個部分如果委員們的討論有取得共識，我們也支持。"],["王委員義川：你們啦！你們要主張啦！領中華民國身分證的不用宣誓效忠中華民國，卻先來說：我是中國人，我的國家是中華人民共和國，我就是為了要領中華民國身分證而已，我又不認同你們啦！我就是中國人，中華人民共和國那張比較好用，我又不認同你們中華民國，但是我就是要領那張。這會不會太誇張？這你們也要主動一點，我們立法院一大堆來「鬥空」的，那群都不會讓這個案子通過，國家要有態度，臺灣人在看的是態度，不會通過這沒辦法，不會通過是大罷免才能夠處理事情嘛！可是我們的政府要有態度啊！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["王委員義川：我們的政府這條，我說什麼4年、8年、6年的，最少啦！你不要說境外敵對勢力，最少也要各國都一樣，哪有全世界臺灣唯一的境外敵對勢力領中華民國身分證領最快，現在還要變4年，還不用效忠中華民國。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝委員提醒，這個部分我們會去做制度上的檢討。"],["王委員義川：好啦！加油啦！這陣子陸委會跟移民署表現得很好，繼續加油，我剛才建議的事情，你們要趕快表態，加油！改天如果又遇到你，我再問一次。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝。"],["王委員義川：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},{"id":"159937","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159937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我們有請我們蔡局長好 局長 早副委員長局長 我想針對我們這幾天大家關心的這個共諜滲透的問題來就教我們局長那因為最近"},{"start":24.724,"end":37.64,"text":"包括負責總統府的維安的憲兵,也有我們立法院國會助理等等因為洩漏內部的資料給中共而被逮捕或是判刑,連外國的媒體都報導說我們總統身旁出現共諜"},{"start":44.048,"end":59.484,"text":"但是這個供碟滲透並非新的問題國安團隊我們也有提出因應的相關作為但是這個滲透的層級為什麼會越來越高它所造成的漏洞"},{"start":60.222,"end":88.323,"text":"的這個核心問題到底在哪裡另外就是我們國安局對於這種潛伏其中的這種共諜我們有沒有什麼樣的一個防範的一個措施跟車委員最後說明就中共在對台進行這些在地協力者或共諜的部件他常常會蠻全面式的來篩選特定的一個目標那我們在夜報的內容也跟各位委員先進有說明到那像是軍中"},{"start":88.803,"end":104.893,"text":"他可能會鎖定一些重要的單位希望能夠來刺密取得相關的機敏的情訊有助於中共未來在對台進行軍事活動的時候有相關的軍事資訊來支撐那第二部分也會去接觸到一些重要的黨"},{"start":105.754,"end":130.479,"text":"政、人事或是我們剛剛有委員在關切的立法院的內部因為這些單位比較容易去接觸到政府和密的一些資料那假如我們在內部對於人員的安全查核的機制不夠健全的話自然就會產生委員所擔心的漏洞的問題那這是我了解到有些貴院的委員也在想要提出相關的一些法規能夠讓立法院這邊在"},{"start":132.119,"end":160.598,"text":"立委助理的部分能夠有一個安全查核的一個過程那很願意來提供我們國安單位的做法那像我們局裡面有180幾個職務都有類似列為合密查核的對象那在合密的過程當中又有分甲級以及丙級可以接觸到絕對機密及機密跟機密那所以假如能夠建立起這樣的一個合密接密的一個分類分級的管制的標準的話那可能在這部分的漏洞會比較減少一點"},{"start":162.821,"end":167.55,"text":"謝謝局長我建議就是我們在行政部門或是包括立法院的國會助理"},{"start":169.195,"end":195.101,"text":"我們在審核的部分是不是可以來研擬一套新的方式來提供給我們行政部門跟立法院的相關國會助理的審查避免剛剛講的這種情勢再發生我想這也是非常重要因為這些人都是涉及到非常多機敏的相關資料那也會是中共要滲透的一個"},{"start":195.681,"end":217.95,"text":"重點的一個對象所以我想說這是不是請局長跟我們同仁是不是在這個會後可以去研擬看看提高我們這個審查的這個方式來協助我們相關需要的這個部門能夠有一個比較嚴謹比較神秘的一個審查我們很願意分享我們的一些經驗給各單位來做參考"},{"start":218.63,"end":246.729,"text":"那另外我們管局有這個提到我們供碟滲透的手法分析報告那去年這個供碟案起訴了這個人數達到64人那在以2021年來看是4倍之多那進一步我們分析供碟的類型歸納出這個五大滲透管道及四大手法那今年所偵辦的案件起訴案件有15件主要的滲透手法跟對象"},{"start":247.769,"end":260.717,"text":"有無轉變那另外政府是不是能夠有效的來反制另外我們國安局是否可以再提高揭露的頻率以提升我們國人保防安全的相關意識"},{"start":262.015,"end":281.681,"text":"對,最後這一點揭露的部分,鄭如委員也注意到我們現在開始有這種所謂的專題的報告來針對這些涉及到國安的議題那透過一個比較完整的分析以及這些案件樣態的一個進入比較深層的討論來讓我們社會大眾更有這樣的一個保防為安的知覺"},{"start":282.361,"end":296.756,"text":"那能夠強化我們的相關的社會的韌性那另外一部分法制的強化也是非常的重要我在會議之前也跟媒體朋友做說明跟報告也就是說怎麼樣來看我們目前的法制有沒有哪些的漏洞可以強化的"},{"start":297.697,"end":326.62,"text":"因為中共在這個部分他們會去針對我們法制的不足的地方來進行一些所謂的人員的部署舉個例子像國安法我們國安法第二條只提到了發展組織罪有相關的刑責並沒有參與組織罪的刑責發展的人有事參與的人沒事那這就代表我們在法制上還有一些更精進的空間那這部分也跟法務部的政部長有在討論這一塊怎麼樣來做一些必要的修法那假如法案有送到貴院來希望委員可以大力的來支持"},{"start":326.98,"end":353.919,"text":"好,這部分再請我們管局這邊競訴來這個送審那另外就是我們中共這個軍演跟內部的整肅的相關問題我想還是就叫我們局長那在上週這個中共有進行這個海峽雷霆2025A的這個軍演那是在我們賴總統3月中宣布國安17條之後中共"},{"start":355.901,"end":372.553,"text":"實施的聯合戰備警巡之後再次發動重大的軍演我想請教局長他這個真正的目的是什麼以及他想釋放的訊息為何另外就是"},{"start":373.053,"end":399.907,"text":"中共藉由這次的軍演是不是在測試川普新政府及我們其他盟友的底線?是不是如此?事實上這次演習的時間點確實是比較特殊因為總統是在3月13號召開國安高層會議做了一些加強我們防制中共滲透的一些措施的宣布但是演習的時間是拖到了4月1號跟2號那一般來講假如是針對性的演習的話時間不會拖這麼長"},{"start":402.288,"end":419.307,"text":"所以我們在判斷上當然透過這個演習可以對台進行一些施壓這是演習的目的之一另外在那個時間點剛好是美國他們的國防部有一些情資被媒體報導認為說美國有一些相關的國防建制的計畫重點是在置中保台"},{"start":419.767,"end":442.463,"text":"那這種的一個國防政策計畫可能也讓中共有點希望能夠透過軍演來表達他們的一個基本的底線跟立場那特別那個時間點也是美國的國防部長到關島到了日本到了菲律賓訪問之後的隔一天來舉行演習所以這次演習應該還是有對美國印太戰略進行反制佈局的一個效果第三個面向是中共內部的問題"},{"start":443.664,"end":464.752,"text":"因為目前中共正在進行一些軍中將領的整肅那委員不知道有沒有注意到那被整肅的很多都是東部戰區或是有31集團軍背景的這些將領那在整肅的過程當中透過這種軍事的演訓的話也可以來讓解放軍的部隊更專注在戰訓而不要去因為的"},{"start":465.652,"end":483.431,"text":"這些政治的整肅而去動搖到他的軍心那另一方面在整肅過程當中透過軍演他也可以讓外界來展示說即使內部有這麼多的問題他還是有一定的戰力可以來對外來呈現所以我們大概是從這三個層次來跟委員報告可能這一次中共軍演背後的戰略的盤算跟動機"},{"start":484.212,"end":507.62,"text":"好,那我接著問那個請教我們局長,就剛剛講的中共進來就在整肅嘛,那對於他整肅的對象包括這個中央軍委的副主席這個何惠東還有東部戰區的司令林向陽,那他這個部分是不是因為他們有涉入這個洩漏對台的相關作戰計畫而遭到這個整肅?"},{"start":508.5,"end":527.066,"text":"對 目前確實有各種的說法這是其中的一種說法那有的也是涉及到可能有貪腐的問題那也有人認為說可能是對習近平的忠誠度遭到質疑那這部分的資訊非常的分雜那因為事件也還在整肅的進行過程當中我們會持續來注意到底什麼才是真正的原因好"},{"start":527.566,"end":553.196,"text":"另外我想請教局長就是我們從去年的這個聯合力艦還有今年的這個海峽雷霆他所釋出的相關這個宣傳的短影片內容裡面有秀出一張台灣地圖他鎖定台北市台中高雄還有花蓮縣為四個紅心的這個目標那另外當然還有其他五個未標注地點包括宜蘭縣的這個地點在演習的代號的轉變上"},{"start":557.297,"end":577.25,"text":"他所釋出的這個短片中鎖定特定的縣市有無特殊的這個政治或是軍事的意涵我們覺得他有他政治的意涵在那中共他現在在進行對台的一些演訓的動作常常會有一些徵訊的操作而現在徵訊的操作比較常看到的是有影片跟圖卡"},{"start":578.01,"end":591.557,"text":"那利用這種影片跟圖卡的一個操作來凸顯到好像台灣已經兵兇戰危讓我們的民眾感受到這種危機感那我想這一些演習過程當中的證訊操作也是本局在"},{"start":593.458,"end":617.846,"text":"觀察演習過程當中中共動作裡面非常重要的一環所以在今天的夜報當中我們也是除了說明中共對台的武力脅迫以外又針對偵訊的部分去說明到我們怎麼樣透過我們的自動查找的系統來掌握它散佈的一個網絡那以及怎麼樣運用AI的技術來製造這些圖卡或是影音來影響國人的相關的認知這是我們的關注重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":618.186,"end":639.052,"text":"好 那就下個月下個月就是我們這個總統就職週年了那共軍是不是有可能進行更大規模的這個行動我們這個國安局有沒有掌握相關的事情對 我們會來注意因為現在中共的相關的演習也跟委員報告說明它這些演習有很多也是把它例行性的演習給拼湊在一起是"},{"start":639.512,"end":657.208,"text":"對 以剛剛委員提到4月1號、2號的海峽雷霆2025A我們就注意到了它有結合到北部戰區的遠海長航跟山東艦的遠海長航那以及相關例行性的聯合戰備警巡把它拼湊在一起變成是一個所謂的對台的正對性的演習"},{"start":657.788,"end":685.564,"text":"那再配合到徵訊的操作來造成國人的一種恐慌那這種的演習它要啟動會非常的快那我們也會配合到我們國安單位跟國防部來發揮我們國軍聯合情監偵的系統來盡可能的預先來掌握相關的動態不過跟委員說明的是一般的船艦它要有相關活動的話一定都會要有一個時間來動員船隻那一般它開始動員我們大概都可以有相當程度的掌握"},{"start":686.524,"end":713.838,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教局長,中共在上個月有舉辦兩會,全國人民代表大會及中國人民政治協商的會議,是不是會借機加大力道來操作新一波對台的這種錯假的認知攻勢,來藉此深化台灣內部的矛盾問題?"},{"start":714.762,"end":741.85,"text":"對他的兩會委員提到的很重要也是有趣的問題我們有發現到他的基調幾乎都沒有變近年兩會都延續到過去的基調也就是反讀觸統觸容那也跟委員說明我們曾經用AI的系統在兩會召開之前用AI的系統去預測今年兩會的政府工作報告對台的部分它的用語會是什麼跟委員說明的是我們事前兩會之前AI系統預測的內容跟後來出來的結果"},{"start":744.491,"end":763.272,"text":"都一樣85%那就代表說他一直在延續他既有的政策立場不是說AI技術很先進可以預測的準確而是中共的立場幾乎都一致強調所謂的反毒觸統出籠好 謝謝局長那期待我們國安局一起來守護國安局好 謝謝陳委員的指導 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時15分）謝謝主席，有請我們蔡局長，局長早。"],["蔡局長明彥：陳委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：局長，我想針對這幾天大家關心的共諜滲透問題來就教局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：最近包括負責總統府維安的憲兵，也有我們立法院國會助理等等，因為洩漏內部的資料給中共而被逮捕或是判刑，連外國的媒體都報導說我們總統身旁出現共諜，但是這個共諜滲透並非新的問題，國安團隊也有提出因應的相關作為，但是滲透的層級為什麼會越來越高？它所造成這個漏洞的核心問題到底在哪裡？另外，我們國安局對於這種潛伏其中的共諜有沒有什麼樣的防範措施？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟陳委員做個說明，就中共對臺進行這些在地協力者或共諜的布建，常常會滿全面式的篩選特定目標，我們在業報的內容也有跟各位委員先進說明，像軍中，他們可能會鎖定一些重要的單位，希望能夠來刺密以取得相關的機敏情訊，有助於中共未來對臺進行軍事活動的時候有相關的軍事資訊來支撐。","第二部分，他們也會去接觸到一些重要的黨政人士，或是剛剛也有委員在關切的立法院內部，因為這些單位比較容易接觸到政府核密的一些資料，假如我們在內部對於人員的安全查核機制不夠健全的話，自然就會產生委員所擔心的漏洞問題。這次我了解到貴院有些委員也想提出相關的一些法規，讓立法院在立委助理的部分能夠有一個安全查核的過程，我們很願意提供國安單位的作法，像我們局裡面有一百八十幾個職務都有類似列為核密查核的對象，在核密的過程當中又有分甲級、乙級、丙級，可以接觸到絕對機密、極機密跟機密，所以假如能夠建立起這樣一個核密、接密的分類、分級管制標準的話，可能在這部分的漏洞會比較減少一點，以上意見提供給委員參考。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝局長。我建議在行政部門或是包括立法院的國會助理，我們在審核的部分是不是可以研擬一套新的方式，提供給我們行政部門跟立法院相關國會助理的審查，避免剛剛講的這種情事再發生，我想這也是非常重要。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為這些人都是涉及到非常多機敏的相關資料，也會是中共要滲透的重點對象。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以我想局長跟我們同仁是不是會後可以去研擬看看，提高我們審查的方式，協助相關需要的部門能夠有一個比較嚴謹、比較縝密的審查？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們很願意分享我們的一些經驗給各單位來做參考。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，我們國安局有提到共諜滲透手法分析報告，去年共諜案起訴人數達到64人，是2021年的4倍之多，我們進一步分析共諜的類型，歸納出五大滲透管道及四大手法，今年所偵辦的案件中，起訴案件有15件，主要的滲透手法跟對象有無轉變？政府是否能夠有效的反制？另外，我們國安局是否可以再提高揭露的頻率，以提升我們國人保防安全的相關意識？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，最後這一點，揭露的部分，正如委員也注意到，我們現在開始有所謂的專題報告，針對這些涉及到國安的議題，透過一個比較完整的分析，以及這些案件的樣態，進入比較深層的討論，讓我們社會大眾更有保防維安的知覺，能夠強化我們相關社會的韌性。","另外一部分，法制的強化也非常的重要，我在會議之前也跟媒體朋友說明跟報告；也就是說，怎麼樣來看我們目前的法制，有沒有哪些漏洞可以強化，因為中共在這個部分會去針對我們法制不足的地方進行一些人員的部署。舉個例子，像國安法，我們國安法第二條只提到發展組織罪有相關刑責，並沒有參與組織罪的刑責，發展的人有事，參與的沒事，這就代表我們在法制上還有一些更精進的空間，這部分也跟法務部鄭部長在討論，這一塊怎麼樣做一些必要的修法，假如法案有送到貴院，也希望委員可以大力支持。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分再請國安局這邊儘速送審。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外就是中共軍演跟內部整肅的相關問題，我想還是就教局長，上週中共有進行海峽雷霆─2025A軍演，是在賴總統3月中宣布國安十七條之後，中共曾實施聯合戰備警巡之後的再次發動重大軍演。我想請教局長的是，他真正的目的是什麼？以及他想釋放的訊息為何？另外就是中共藉由這次軍演，是不是在測試川普新政府及我們其他盟友的底線？是不是如此？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，事實上這次演習的時間點確實是比較特殊，因為總統是在3月13號召開國安高層會議，做了一些加強我們防制中共滲透的一些措施的宣布，但是演習的時間拖到了4月1號跟2號，一般來講，假如是針對性的演習，時間不會拖這麼長，所以我們在判斷上，當然透過這個演習，可以對臺進行一些施壓，這是演習的目的之一。另外，在那個時間點，剛好是美國國防部有一些情資被媒體報導，認為美國有一些相關的國防建置計畫，重點是在制中保臺，這種國防政策計畫可能也讓中共有點希望能夠透過軍演來表達他們的基本底線跟立場，特別那個時間點也是美國國防部長Hegseth到了關島、到了日本、到了菲律賓訪問之後的隔一天舉行演習，所以這次演習應該還是有對美國印太戰略進行反制布局的一個效果。第三個面向是中共內部的問題，因為目前中共正在進行一些軍中將領的整肅，委員不知道有沒有注意到，被整肅的很多都是東部戰區，或是有三十一集團軍背景的這些將領，在整肅的過程當中，透過這種軍事演訓的話，也可以讓解放軍部隊更專注在戰訓，而不要因為這些政治整肅去動搖到他的軍心。另一方面，在整肅過程當中，透過軍演也可以向外界展示，即使內部有這麼多的問題，它還是有一定的戰力可以對外呈現。所以我們大概是從這三個層次來跟委員報告，可能這一次中共軍演背後戰略的盤算跟動機。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我接著請教局長，剛剛講的中共近來是在整肅，對於整肅的對象，包括中央軍委副主席何衛東，還有東部戰區司令林向陽，關於這個部分，是不是因為他們有涉入洩漏對臺相關作戰計畫而遭到整肅？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前確實有各種說法，這是其中一種說法，有的也是涉及到可能有貪腐的問題，也有人認為可能是對習近平的忠誠度遭到質疑，這部分資訊非常紛雜，因為事件也還在整肅進行過程當中，我們會持續注意到底什麼才是真正的原因。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外我想請教局長的是，從去年的聯合利箭，還有今年的海峽雷霆，它所釋出的相關宣傳短影片，內容裡面有秀出一張臺灣地圖，它鎖定臺北市、臺中、高雄，還有花蓮縣為四個紅星目標，另外當然還有其他五個未標註地點，包括宜蘭縣這個地點，在演習代號的轉變上，所釋出的這個短片中鎖定特定縣市有無特殊政治或是軍事意涵？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。我們覺得它有它的政治意涵在，中共現在在進行對臺的一些演訓動作，常常會有一些爭訊的操作，而現在爭訊的操作，比較常看到的是有影片跟圖卡，利用這種影片跟圖卡的操作來凸顯好像臺灣已經兵凶戰危，讓我們的民眾感受到危機感，我想這些演習過程當中的爭訊操作，也是本局在觀察演習過程當中中共動作裡面非常重要的一環。所以在今天的業報當中，我們也是除了說明中共對臺的武力脅迫以外，也有針對爭訊的部分去說明我們怎麼樣透過我們的自動查找系統，來掌握它散布的網絡，以及怎麼樣運用AI技術製造這些圖卡或是影音，影響國人的相關認知，這是我們的關注重點，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，下個月就是我們總統就職週年，共軍是不是有可能進行更大規模的行動？國安局有沒有掌握相關訊息？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會來注意。現在中共的相關演習也跟委員報告說明，這些演習有很多也是把例行性演習拼湊在一起，以剛剛委員提到4月1號、2號的海峽雷霆─2025A，我們就注意到了它有結合到北部戰區的遠海長航跟山東艦的遠海長航，以及相關例行性的聯合戰備警巡，把它拼湊在一起變成是一個所謂對臺的針對性演習，再配合爭訊的操作，來造成國人的一種恐慌，這種演習要啟動會非常快，我們也會配合我們國安單位跟國防部來發揮我們國軍聯合情監偵系統，儘可能的預見掌握相關動態。","不過，跟委員說明的是，一般的船艦要有相關活動的話，一定都會要有一個時間來動員船隻，一般它開始動員，我們大概都可以有相當程度的掌握。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。最後一個問題我想請教局長，中共在上個月有舉辦兩會──全國人民代表大會及中國人民政治協商會議，是不是會藉機加大力道操作新一波對臺錯假的認知攻勢，藉此深化臺灣內部的矛盾問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員提到一個很重要，也是有趣的問題，我們有發現到，它的基調幾乎都沒有變，近來兩會都延續到過去的基調，也就是反獨、促統、促融。也跟委員說明，我們曾經用AI系統，在兩會召開之前用AI的系統去預測今年兩會政府工作報告對臺部分的用語會是什麼，跟委員說明的是，我們在兩會之前AI系統預測的內容跟後來出來的結果……"],["陳委員俊宇：都一樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：百分之八十五，那就代表它一直在延續既有的政策立場，不是說AI技術很先進可以預測得準確，而是中共的立場幾乎都一致強調所謂的反獨、促統、促融。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝局長，期待國安局一起守護國家。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝陳委員的指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。","接下來由陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-6","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","馬文君","王定宇","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","沈伯洋","李坤城","王鴻薇","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}