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今天協商司法及法治委員會報告並案審查台灣民眾黨黨團離去中華民國刑法部分修正條文草案等七案"},{"start":2098.72,"end":2098.741,"text":"嗯"},{"start":2100.506,"end":2125.676,"text":"好那我們本案審查是在114年1月6號審查完畢那審查情形是各題案及修正動議均保留送院會處理並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商那我們現在進行協商協商時請參閱協商條文對照表及審查報告那與會員如果有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面印發現場進行討論好那我們現在"},{"start":2130.598,"end":2154.724,"text":"請問一下出席的黨團代表有沒有要表示意見好 那請出席黨團代表表示意見第一個是 妨礙司法公正罪跟棄保檢討我想應該斯卡古斯會議結論蠻清楚的只是拖延了非常非常久那程序上我只有兩個問題第一個是民進黨黨團要不要來"},{"start":2160.643,"end":2178.305,"text":"沒有來我們可以進行嗎這是第一個問題第二個問題是法務部你們有沒有要提建議的對岸有要提還是沒有要提是不是可以先請法務部先說明一下"},{"start":2180.213,"end":2200.939,"text":"好 可以啊 接著我們介紹莊瑞雄委員 三黨的代表都已經到場了那我們現在先請出席的機關代表 先就意見表示或是還有剛剛黃委員所諮詢的 那我們是請黃政次能夠說明"},{"start":2203.254,"end":2226.792,"text":"好謝謝主席那我想這個本次所協商的條文的內容在113年7月11日跟114年的1月6日兩次在委員會進行審查那本部兩次都列席那並且對於各該版本的條文都有提出書面的意見那麼本部的立場呢這個對於這一個相關的"},{"start":2231.896,"end":2256.892,"text":"這個提案的方向以及修正修法的目的均表支持跟贊同那麼事實上的本部可以說也從108年的9月17日就擬據相關的條文草案呈報行政院審查那麼可以看得出來這個各委員所擬據版本也跟過去本部所"},{"start":2257.732,"end":2272.101,"text":"預告的這個條文是可以說是一個很雷同的方向但是他也請各位委員這個注意就是說我們這個在兩次的修正兩次委員會審查中所提出來意見"},{"start":2273.001,"end":2298.897,"text":"就是對於各該條文也就是其實也就是針對我們當初預告的版本事實上在行政院審查過程中發現有諸多的問題跟這個錯漏所以在行政院審查的過程已經做了很多的調整跟修正那麼客證在行政院已經進入審查最後階段那因為行政院還未定案那麼本部代理法院並沒有單獨提案權"},{"start":2299.577,"end":2315.679,"text":"所以我們已經可能沒有辦法就是直接將這些條文的文字內容拿出來但是我們對各該條文都已經有相關的這個指書相關的問題跟人需研議的地方那麼前兩次的書面資料也請採閱以上報告"},{"start":2318.007,"end":2339.442,"text":"我這邊也說明一下我們本案在去年7月還有今年1月的時候審查時審查會都有請法不能夠請訴提出行政院的版本但到今天協商前還是沒有看到結果那就如同剛剛政次所說的目前可能還沒有辦法提出來我們接著介紹陳佩瑜委員陳委員"},{"start":2344.206,"end":2360.434,"text":"好 那如果這樣的話 那是不是我們就請問一下民進黨團這裡有沒有要表示意見有啊 就是在我們桌上都有啊寫上條文對照表"},{"start":2362.574,"end":2378.304,"text":"一條一條來就對了對 謝謝現在是先請大家有沒有就...OK 好 謝謝我們召委還有我們列席的官員還有我們黃委員 羅委員那我想這個不管是161條跟172這個從"},{"start":2384.269,"end":2398.269,"text":"這個依法逮捕拘禁之人的脫逃罪這個部分還有妨礙司法公證罪的部分我從上次這條文到現在我有一些疑惑到現在還是未解未解也就是說"},{"start":2399.57,"end":2416.886,"text":"這個條文我到現在還比較沒有辦法了解說它真正要處理的是什麼規範有它規範的一個意義在也就是說像譬如說你社會上發生了些什麼那是不是我們現行的規定不足以去做規範"},{"start":2418.507,"end":2445.932,"text":"或者說現行的一個規範裡面對於現在社會上發生的事情我們不足以去處理它或者威嚇它像譬如說現在161條我上次也表達過意見今天這所有的條文都沒有任何黨派之分反而在現場我看光榮園這也都是法學專業然後各位都是法學專業我再來提出救教就是說我們161條"},{"start":2448.092,"end":2463.448,"text":"很顯然的就是要把刑罰去做一個加重就依法逮捕居姓之人的偷逃本來是一年以下有期徒刑現在變成要三年以下把刑度提高變三倍那是不是法務部這個地方也做說明"},{"start":2464.709,"end":2488.882,"text":"這幾年裡面這樣的情況多嘛脫逃罪是不是特別嚴重所以我們必須要來提高為三倍這第一個問題第二個問題就是說我比較沒有辦法理解的是我縱放這個條文在90年就修過了我們當初條文的設計就是說我自己跑掉是一年以下"},{"start":2492.888,"end":2508.428,"text":"就比較符合人性嘛那我如果去放掉你三年我當初是說你自己跑掉的是一年如果你是去把人家放掉的是三年那你現在就變成說不管了放掉的是三年"},{"start":2509.676,"end":2526.129,"text":"自己跑掉了我也是三年這個邏輯我確實是不懂我針對這幾個條文我都是在談一個法律的邏輯大家如果認為有必要彼此說服有道理我也可以支持"},{"start":2527.72,"end":2544.716,"text":"這個都沒有在講什麼國民黨民眾黨民進黨都沒有我完全在講我莊烈雄個人講我個人我對法律我是這樣的一個理解所以我請法務部可以提出一個說明就是說我們現在脫逃的部分被逮捕激進的人跑掉的情況"},{"start":2545.797,"end":2565.598,"text":"往年你們去做比較你們做比較說這個確實增加了這個現行的法律規定不足以威嚇那我也可以贊同那或者是認為說我們這個條文這個已經太久了這個我們要與時俱進那與時俱進我們要把它提高那我也可以接受"},{"start":2566.653,"end":2591.032,"text":"那但是你把161條你要把它拉高三倍的刑責的時候那自己去把它放掉的部分我們原來設計是三年是自行脫逃的三倍那這個是不是我們是不是條文在修訂的時候也要一併去做考慮這我是一直上次講說法務部你必須要去思考這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":2592.881,"end":2618.499,"text":"那你們如果我從頭到尾我都不表達我贊成跟反對是我對這個條文設計邏輯上的一個疑慮看起來你們都沒有啊我相信鍾憲文我這樣提很合理吧一個法律人我們就這樣的一個思考就是說你自己跑掉的是一年我們當初設計就是你重放了一頂殼物啊這三倍啊我們現在把它拉的都一樣了這個邏輯在什麼地方邏輯在什麼我們到底要處理什麼"},{"start":2623.356,"end":2639.928,"text":"我這點我先就教我們法務部這個地方啦還有各位如果認為我這樣是不對的也請你們來做指教因為我可能腦袋瓜也比較老了一點也不一定這個法學時潮有什麼新的一個進步我沒有去注意到我請就教大家報告主席我們請我們的市長來補充說明好 謝謝"},{"start":2650.35,"end":2676.706,"text":"主席各位委員次長各位先請大家午安有關於脫逃罪在近十年來的統計數字來講的話都是維持在數十人然後總共在近十年來是總共有偵查新收案件450人偵查終結案件447人那人數也是有偏多的情況那我們這一次修法要提高脫逃罪的刑度各位的各位版本的修正草案的提高"},{"start":2678.553,"end":2705.349,"text":"脫逃罪的刑度的部分也是考量說因為我們在刑法在24年以來在脫逃罪的構成要件及刑度上面都沒有做任何的更動再加上在防害司法公證罪章裡面也有針對棄保潛逃罪有做了一個新的修正草案的提出那考量兩者的刑度的部分還有法醫嚴重輕重的程度還是有必須要做相關的調整這是反映了現實的狀況的需求謝謝"},{"start":2708.977,"end":2733.724,"text":"你沒有解釋啊你這樣解釋第一個我可以接受啊但是你要合併去看啊你161你必須要跟162合併來看啊不是嗎你如果161你拉到三年然後你162你說你提升到五年你有一個邏輯這樣我還可以接受啊那你修法只修一個條文我也覺得好奇怪啊"},{"start":2734.892,"end":2754.659,"text":"我覺得啦我邏輯上我就認為這樣奇怪我真的我講的話你們法務部真的認為我講的都沒道理不是這個意思不是我這個沒有黨派喔我這個條文我也不護航喔我是從頭在審這個條文的時候我是基於我個人的確信除非我真的那麼落伍了有關於"},{"start":2761.267,"end":2786.648,"text":"有關於脫逃罪所侵害的法例的話是有關於國家拘禁作用的破壞那還包含了對於妨害司法公正的一個傷害所以這個法例侵害的嚴重程度是有的所以有提高刑度的必要那至於跟縱放人犯162條等條同一張的這個規定的話其實其他條文是否有並同調整刑度的必要這當然是可以再繼續研議的地方本部並沒有反對"},{"start":2789.451,"end":2817.43,"text":"黃委員剛先舉手,麻煩黃委員第一個,莊委員的看法其實我們上前兩次審查的時候都聆聽過了,我也都尊重不過剛剛其實聽我們主管機關他們表達的意見莊委員應該可以理解,在這個問題上面主管機關也是贊成提高刑律的看法"},{"start":2818.411,"end":2835.525,"text":"第三個部分你所關注的事情因為他侵害國家法律的本質是同意的那這是為什麼在日本刑法針對這兩個侵害同一個國家法律他們所刻意的法定刑的範圍是一樣的"},{"start":2837.947,"end":2865.896,"text":"那這個我們當初提案的時候全部都有做通盤的考慮跟處理那當然如果說其他委員認為說你還是要有一些差別不要三年以下要提兩年以下等等那我覺得我們都尊重因為顯然這個事情在整個法例的權衡上面我們參考了日本的立法例"},{"start":2867.732,"end":2895.568,"text":"橫出我國那麼久沒有去針對這條更動行路以及過去這幾年來說發生案件的狀況以及在社會上面對於這種行為太陽必須要予以加重處罰的期待那最後也是這裡為什麼要做調整因為這裡不調整的話你後面那個聚寶潛逃的部分那個空間會非常的窄"},{"start":2896.601,"end":2916.398,"text":"因為一個是已經被拘禁起來跑掉另外一個是拒保以後再跑掉你如果前面這個不動你後面這個法定刑根本沒有辦法去做任何的處理綜合上面這樣的因素所以我們才提出這樣子修正草案的內容"},{"start":2917.499,"end":2933.899,"text":"這個修正草案的內容跟當初不管是在世界國事會議甚至是法務部他們自己提出來的條文最起碼就刑度的部分應該方向上面是一致的以上提供給專委員做參考"},{"start":2936.425,"end":2952.31,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來請陳委員好 謝謝主席那如果按照剛剛您這邊法務部這邊的說法那我想要一併請問我們就是從161就是在藍白的版本裡面有提到如果有必須要加重"},{"start":2952.95,"end":2981.133,"text":"根據本刑犯然後去加重到二分之一如果我們回頭來看在刑法的二分之一如果要加重期刑到二分之一的規定在刑法裡面現在有兩種樣態那如果我有講錯再麻煩更正第一個是當事人或者是被害人具有特定身份的時候像是殺害直系的血親尊親屬或者是公務員包庇罪行的時候我們必須有加重期刑至二分之一這是第一個第二個是用特定的方法"},{"start":2981.733,"end":3001.763,"text":"有特定的方式在法律要件當中刑事犯罪像是電子通訊啦網際網路在313裡面像這個方法妨害行用罪這個是在刑法裡面整部刑法裡面對於所謂加重起刑到二分之一的規定好那如果這個邏輯在原來的刑法裡面是成立的話那我就不懂的是現在"},{"start":3003.284,"end":3024.282,"text":"提出來的修正版本裡面呢是以涉犯最輕本刑三年以上的有期徒刑之罪而犯第一項之罪也就是逃亡的部分得加重期刑到二分之一基本上他們這個鎖定的樣態跟我剛剛講的兩個樣態截然的不同那所以這個部分也是法務部認為合理的嗎"},{"start":3025.163,"end":3039.964,"text":"也是可以成立的嗎那也許可以請你們做說明那在這個刑法體系裡面如果你這件事情是要成立的話那如同剛剛莊委員所提醒的會不會有其他的條文要一併來調整我現在講的是整個刑法體系的問題"},{"start":3041.505,"end":3065.334,"text":"還有如果是德加重的話那什麼情況下德什麼情況下不需要什麼情況下應我覺得這也還是要回到整個立法體系的問題那如果你的立法一直所要保護的是所謂的妨害司法公正跟對國家居住作用的破壞這個是你原本要保護的法益那這個德這個事情的態度法務部要不要也說明一下你們的態度是覺得要更積極"},{"start":3066.474,"end":3087.31,"text":"用因還是你們覺得這個方法也可以就可以達到您剛剛所說的保護這個法益的部分還有就是我個人認為像這個寫法加重期刑的方法到底是回到民間務實的狀態來說到底是希望當事人因此不敢逃亡還是逃了更不想回來"},{"start":3088.03,"end":3097.619,"text":"還是要加重他逃亡的意念我覺得這整件事情回到整個刑法體系來講我其實還是需要法務部就這個部分給我們回答 謝謝那個陳委員我這邊先解釋一下因為法務部並沒有提版本"},{"start":3104.386,"end":3117.52,"text":"然後這個剛剛您說的那個加重的部分的版本是羅委員還有民眾黨黨團的版本也是民眾黨黨團的條文沒有啊你直接看161嘛對你們的是寫在161對啊我161上面哪裡有寫"},{"start":3122.885,"end":3138.695,"text":"國民黨主席我們剛剛不確定到底是要整體討論還是要逐條因為剛剛主席有沒有回應我們目前是逐條討論那是不是法務部這邊先回覆回覆完之後161的部分好沒問題謝謝主席謝謝那麻煩法務部說明"},{"start":3139.878,"end":3153.571,"text":"好 謝謝因為這個剛剛陳委員所提的其實這個在161和161之一的其他部分其實都有出現那我們對於這一個就是有一個共同的現象就是"},{"start":3155.853,"end":3176.729,"text":"各委員的版本或是黨員黨團版本在不同的地方可能都有救如果被發現他潛逃或是脫逃的被告假設他涉犯的本罪就是他本來原本被"},{"start":3177.85,"end":3204.764,"text":"被抓起來的那一個罪的這個刑度這個有的是寫罪行本刑三年以上有的是寫這個宣告刑或鎖定實行刑在五年以上等等那這個其實在實務上會有一個問題也就是說這個我們其實在前兩次的這一個這個書面報告裡面我們都有分別指出來針對不同這個黨團或是委員的版本裡面都有提出來說因為這個"},{"start":3207.454,"end":3228.219,"text":"這個脫逃或者是棄保潛逃發生的時間點其實是沒有只限制在這個判刑確定之後也就是說他可能還在偵查中或審判中甚至他可能還沒有經過任何一個有罪判決去確定到底他所涉犯的這個罪名或者是這個已經宣告過任何的這個宣告刑"},{"start":3229.019,"end":3256.196,"text":"所以如果是以這樣的規定方式來訂定的話其實是有可能這個會沒有辦法適用也就是說根本用不到或者是說這一個會在未來判決確定之後針對這個部分又可能重複再去提起再審或是非常上述針對這個脫逃罪的部分所以這個部分這樣的規定方式我們是比較不建議的以上說明這個在我們之前的說明報告裡面都有提到"},{"start":3257.568,"end":3267.662,"text":"好 謝謝 那請問一下那個羅委員有沒有要說明這個部分沒有齁好 好 鐘 鐘委員"},{"start":3269.384,"end":3295.112,"text":"主席我一併再來做一個補充說明其實這一個條文以台灣民眾黨的部分其實它那個條文裡面我是第一項我有不同的一個看法第二 第三我反而又沒有意見但是我們如果再一併審查的話我們今天也沒有說以誰的版本羅委員剛好也在場 羅志強委員在場羅志強委員他的部分是"},{"start":3295.632,"end":3317.89,"text":"他把被告受到拘保責負限制出境或限制出海經合法船沒有正當理由不到場發布通緝者他也一併放在這個地方也都是三年以下所以今天到底我們要先採誰的版本如果一併要去講的話那這個地方又是"},{"start":3320.252,"end":3346.206,"text":"兩個條文的態樣其實是完全不同一個是在公權力在掌握之下的那另外一種是已經依託了公權力據保了或者是責負了那這個也是一同那當然就是三年以下那像譬如說我這次舉一個例子我跟樓梓祥我們兩個打架或者我罵你"},{"start":3347.276,"end":3370.508,"text":"罵你以後警察也會抓我啊 獻刑犯來逮捕吧那逮捕以後是九千塊 要不要我拒保啊甚至不用 就說好啦 你的好同事 趙偉 吳宗憲我就折付給他 他就把我帶走了我就離開了 離開以後 船換不到艇我要變三年 我是餘歷這個 我的本罪這麼輕"},{"start":3372.401,"end":3389.601,"text":"我的本罪搞不好就是 搞不好都不用判刑搞不好我們兩個說 哎 兄弟 笑啊 意識攻防難免大家講話會比較吵來吵去你也說沒事結果呢 我們兩個沒事了以後 可是我因為你這個條文 我要三年以下"},{"start":3392.812,"end":3409.233,"text":"審法案你應該知道我的風格審法案我就說大家來討我怕你沒有考慮到的或者說我沒有考慮到你彼此來做一個提醒我是擔心條文這樣的一個設計會變成說輕罪到最後啊沒事有時候那個本罪不見了"},{"start":3410.194,"end":3427.776,"text":"那又多了這樣的一個罪,而且還是告訴奶論的,還是告訴奶論的,人家小白害不害怕,或是摩托車小龍,發生一個車禍的現場,警察也到現場來了,你到底是故意撞人家的,還是過失的,不知道,抓起來。"},{"start":3428.837,"end":3442.602,"text":"好啦 到檢察官那邊去有時候檢察官聽了這個警察人員的稱訴以後一萬塊交保 交保回去了兩個人和解掉了 下次開庭"},{"start":3443.635,"end":3471.701,"text":"也不知道檢察官也不知道你們到底有沒有和解再找來你不來三年以下我是覺得條文這樣的設計是不是會產生有這些的一個餘力尤其是針對這種告訴乃論之罪的部分我知道現在的社會的一個氛圍裡面對這一些很討厭的人你像比如說中文字或者說幾個重大犯罪不管哪一個黨跑掉的這大家都是"},{"start":3473.112,"end":3500.643,"text":"生物痛覺這些人就是壞蛋我們要處理這些我懂但問題是會不會這個射程會傷及到無辜我們挑問整個設計的時候是不是整個體系一併來做一個思考尤其涉及到真的這些告訴乃論的一個清罪的部分我們貿然這樣的一個制定以後天下大亂以上做這樣的一個說明不然要舉例真的是太多了我可以告訴你如果"},{"start":3501.623,"end":3522.189,"text":"羅委員這個我知道你在想些什麼你就覺得讓他規範的更縝密一點可是呢如果沒有去做這樣的一個區分的話輕罪也會碰到這樣的一個事情啦那其實這些我上次我也都就教過大家嘛那大家彼此就沒有辦法說服嘛我就不曉得今天來大家有沒有比較更高明的意見我來聆聽啦謝謝羅委員先舉手我們是讓羅委員先說然後羅委員完再請黃委員"},{"start":3529.269,"end":3544.839,"text":"其實我覺得剛剛莊烈雄委員的一些說明我覺得真的我是覺得法務部應該要聽進去為什麼一再希望說我們行政院這邊能夠有個版本出來事實上因為確實我們現在是面臨兩種情境"},{"start":3546.749,"end":3568.42,"text":"第一種情境 我先不講重大現在社會關注 包括中文字 林秉文 陳啟玉之前發生的狀況我先不講這些社會重大關注的狀況我單講說現在所謂的棄保潛逃的嚴重性實質上有將近兩成的拒保的案例 是棄保比例達到兩成"},{"start":3569.529,"end":3593.764,"text":"實際上如果說今天我們要保障社會安全要能夠實現我們行事正義那只有七寶潛逃的比重這麼的高那不就是代表我們一個很大的破口那為什麼司法國是會議會有這樣的一個結論那就是希望說我們能夠把這個破口補起來能夠讓我們的社會善良的老百姓多一層保障"},{"start":3594.685,"end":3611.495,"text":"所以當然我覺得剛剛專選委員講的我覺得有部分我也認同啊那到底說這個刑度的設計有沒有合乎比例性那這當然是可以討論可是我認為是一定要有一個所謂的單獨的一個負責就苛責因為現在來講氣保檢討就是沒事啊"},{"start":3615.057,"end":3638.138,"text":"雖然七保潛牢本來就應該單獨成一個所謂的罪行跟一個判斷那這是為什麼司法國事會議我覺得要有七保潛牢罪這個當時的一個所謂的討論那當然回到這邊我是有點遺憾啦就是說事實上這些很多東西如果有所謂行政部門的一些意見進來既然都認同這個方針進來的話"},{"start":3641.181,"end":3654.314,"text":"是不是怎麼樣去分辨它的比例性我覺得本來就可以討論但是要把這個漏洞補起來應該是我相信應該是藍綠白三黨以及包括行政部門的共識那比例性怎麼調整那是可以討論但是這個共識這個洞要補我覺得是個共識"},{"start":3657.762,"end":3679.962,"text":"那我覺得這一點我是比較遺憾因為上次我看莊委員有提出來就是也覺得說為什麼我們行政機關這邊不能夠有一個從行政機關角度思考的一個版本出來那這次我覺得是比較遺憾的事情那接下來請黃委員每月從起始"},{"start":3683.139,"end":3703.33,"text":"不要從史凱福,我是唯一開始算從去年開始算第一次院會總諮詢我以為就問這件事情了到現在也超過一年了行政機關請他們提,他們不提我們也沒辦法逼他們真的沒辦法逼他們"},{"start":3710.138,"end":3737.34,"text":"兩次的詢答花了那麼多的時間還是不提那沒有辦法我就尊重你不提阿那剛瑞雄在講說台灣民眾黨161的條文第二項第三項你贊成第一項你有不同的看法那沒有關係阿台灣民主社會本來就有不一樣的看法阿看瑞雄那邊有什麼樣的高見"},{"start":3738.582,"end":3753.712,"text":"不然你就寫一個修正統議嘛不然你沒有辦法討論啦你沒辦法說服我我也沒有辦法說服你我們要一直僵在這邊嗎因為這個事情我很理性的跟專委員講"},{"start":3755.492,"end":3779.935,"text":"我們審兩次了你的看法我都有聽你的看法我都有聽到我都很一致了剛剛我也很負責的跟你解釋我們法案為什麼是這樣提我有我的看法你有你的看法我們大家都尊重甚至我提出來的版本可能跟輪委員的看法也不一樣這個都是很正常的狀況"},{"start":3782.625,"end":3807.961,"text":"但如果今天是第一次審查的話你每天要這樣做我是沒有關係因為本來嘛現在已經到黨團協商的階段了大家就確認一下我們的立場是不是一致如果不一致沒有關係就沒有辦法達成協商結論嘛不然坐在這裡再講一百個小時啦可能結果也都還是"},{"start":3809.737,"end":3833.502,"text":"是一樣所以是不是我比較善意的建議主席因為如果有什麼新的觀點我覺得新的觀點再來討論都好如果只是延續前兩次審查大家繼續合格言而治的話真的會搞到天荒地老也不會有共識"},{"start":3835.478,"end":3844.538,"text":"謝謝黃委員我想說因為大家的想法不一致就三年以下的部分以及是否加重行則是二分之一的部分大家想法不一樣"},{"start":3845.424,"end":3866.197,"text":"那是不是說我們這個案子就保留等於是大家沒有共識如果有共識我們當然是可以依照那個協商內容通過嘛或者是照誰的提案通過那如果說沒有辦法我覺得這很好這我們真的是就法條在討論我尊重這一定是保留嘛就是第一個你刑罰"},{"start":3868.118,"end":3892.33,"text":"160第一項你要去做一個提高就是我們這個彼此沒有辦法說服嘛沒有辦法說服的原因我也不是說你那個太重太輕的問題是你跟後面的行為太樣那個罪質本來就有所不同我認定的是我自行脫逃的部分他的罪質我明講好了我認為自己跑掉的罪質比較低我認為去把他放掉的尤其公務人員把他放掉那是可惡"},{"start":3893.07,"end":3911.1,"text":"那個加個三倍我覺得很合理啊所以你這個地方要把它拉高到下面這個條紋一樣相同的最直行為太陽會不同那你說一樣我當然就反對不贊成就是說因為條紋我認為它本來它的設計它的罪責的程度會有所不同的原來的設計我覺得是好的"},{"start":3912.981,"end":3941.612,"text":"那你如果要動161的第一項那你相對在我看來就是必須要去動162條那當然講不下去沒辦法說服的話這沒有對錯的問題我們就保留因為剛剛那個黃委員他也有提到其實日本的做法其實兩個是一樣那我想說161條的部分因為大家沒有共識所以我們本條予以保留各位有沒有其他 有沒有意見那沒有的話本條予以保留那我們現在審查"},{"start":3946.717,"end":3947.241,"text":"那個法官請"},{"start":3956.217,"end":3983.029,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好就161條部分委員林思明等16人版草案第161條第二項所定的毀損拘禁處所竊據或以強暴脅迫犯前項之罪的情形與沒有這個加重適由的同條第一項的情形兩者法定刑事完全相同那有沒有違反這個平等原則及罪行相當原則就敬請在座"},{"start":3984.029,"end":4007.214,"text":"本條其餘部分尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定 謝謝好 謝謝吳法官那我們就本條一保留 大家的意見我們都會記在議事錄裡面那我們現在審查序號二號台灣民眾黨團提案增訂第161條之一及委員洪孟凱等22人提案增訂第163條之一"},{"start":4011.084,"end":4017.604,"text":"好那請問這個部分各位委員有沒有意見要提出排序二"},{"start":4046.499,"end":4047.522,"text":"可以喔 好 謝謝張偉"},{"start":4050.211,"end":4079.27,"text":"新增的我看台灣民眾黨的161-1是拒保責付跟限制住居或限制出境出海的被告合法草案無沒有正當理由不到庭發布通緝者三年以下有期徒刑那以一般來看的話這個就是新增的啦就是新增的一般以現行實務上來看的話你交保的交保不到沒收通緝抓過來就是這樣子要新增新增"},{"start":4080.571,"end":4109.415,"text":"還是會碰到相同的問題我認為都會碰到 如果要處理重罪的話要處理重罪的話這樣的一個規定啊 顯然也不足以來做威嚇可是碰到輕罪真的又麻煩我說交保一萬的交保一萬的告訴南倫支隊交保一萬的我要去做工了我就去做工了我跟羅志祥打架一萬塊交保"},{"start":4111.004,"end":4138.704,"text":"前半我去做工,我也來上班,我很忙或者我這個宋達的部分住宿舍沒有回到我的宋達地址住所地傳聞沒有到當然很難想像說發布通緝自己都不知道的但一般確實在民間裡面大家看到這個是指標性的案件那我看到的是一般的事情小民"},{"start":4140.6,"end":4163.176,"text":"法一定下去的話 又會碰到一個輕罪的 甚至於告訴乃論的 多出一個重罪出來我就比較擔心這個 這樣也都沒有人為我說服啊你們就跟人家說 我要嫁這個下去 拘保折付了 你們覺得很可惡啊像我都認為折付的部分 為什麼會折付"},{"start":4165.899,"end":4190.351,"text":"為什麼連交保都沒有直接就折付他就認為沒有保全被告跟保全證據的一個必要啊或者說案件已經非常清楚了那這些又多增加這樣的一個條文把它弄三年以下它的意義規範的意義在什麼地方到底要處理什麼這個我很一貫的到現在我還沒有被說服啦好 謝謝好 謝謝主席"},{"start":4195.472,"end":4218.302,"text":"那我們 我再跟您再次確定就是161之一嘛確定喔 好我想要問一下就是根據161的這個修法的版本現在有三項嘛那從一項一項來看呢我的看法可能跟蕊熊委員不大一致可是有一些問題我覺得還是要提出來討論那雖然法務部沒有版本可是我們還是想要聽聽看你們的意見喔"},{"start":4219.242,"end":4248.822,"text":"就是目前依照刑事訴訟法116-2第四項規定如果我被法院依照第一項或第三項所定為遵守這四項得進行拘提也就是我們在刑訴法裡面已經有明白的規定違規的處理方法那目前這個版本的寫法我認為可能有跌床駕屋的風險那我想要知道一下就我們的判斷上這樣是不是合理這個我們的擔心還有在這個版本裡面有寫到制止的部分"},{"start":4249.142,"end":4253.044,"text":"那這個制止的部分是刑訴法沒有規定的要件那在現行的刑罰裡面也沒有就制止這兩個字做定義所以我們也很好奇假設這個版本真的通過了那制止這兩個字我們在相關的應用上要如何去解釋"},{"start":4266.832,"end":4282.459,"text":"那既然是這樣那所以我也很好奇他跟刑訴法116第四項競合的時候應該要如何處理好也要麻煩你們一併的回應還有就是我也很好奇假設我們假設假設被告真的已經逃跑那要如何達到制止"},{"start":4283.94,"end":4299.738,"text":"這不只是定義的問題在實際的應用上我們我看不出來精緻指人在違反者這到底的用意或者是實際上我們可以怎麼處理所以這個部分我也想要請法務部告訴我們你們的見解跟你們可能的看法"},{"start":4300.419,"end":4322.539,"text":"那再來關於第三項的部分如果被告他已經是有罪判決確定我們可以想想看最常發生的失誤可能會是應該到案執行那他沒有正當理由不到場而且呢經過拘提他還是沒有來所以我們就發布通緝可是現在的版本寫的是在第一項裡面寫的是不到庭"},{"start":4323.34,"end":4343.505,"text":"那這裡面會不會有法規漏洞的問題這是第一個再來161-1的第二項跟第三項二跟三假設同時發生的時候需要制止嗎所以在整個邏輯上我也想要請法務部告訴我們你們的法律見解還是它有可能共存嗎好 以上 謝謝主席 謝謝好 那麻煩法務部表示意見"},{"start":4344.858,"end":4372.156,"text":"好 謝謝委員推詢那我想這個相關的意見我們在去年的書面報告裡面其實都已經有提過了那關於這個A161條之一它事實上它的第一項的這個構成要件我們認為事實上是有相當的疑慮因為雖然它是有經這個合法傳喚然後有這一些這個限制住居或這個限制出境出海等等"},{"start":4372.896,"end":4393.441,"text":"但如果只是因為經合法傳喚而無,這讓理由不到是否就已經有棄保潛逃的積極的情勢,那其實還有可疑而且這個過程要件已發布通緝,這個並非行為人的行為而是司法警察或者是"},{"start":4394.341,"end":4421.33,"text":"司法警察官或者是這個檢察機關或是法院來發布與否這樣的一個行為作為這個過程要件事實上也有欠妥適所以在過程要件上還是建議應該要具體的描述積極的逃亡或他逃逆的這樣的一個要件會比這個目前草案的這個要件來得更為妥適那以免違反這個罪行相當的原則"},{"start":4422.33,"end":4438.675,"text":"那麼第二個這個第二項剛剛所提到的這個金字紙仍在違反這個部分呢確實這個在法律明確性上面是有些疑問的因為這個所謂的字紙到底是這個主體有誰來做那麼它的形式如何而且呢刑事訴訟法"},{"start":4439.875,"end":4452.949,"text":"十六條之二有非常多各種不同的應遵守事項是不是都是用自治來處理事實上也還有很多討論的空間畢竟我們現在是在刑法的構思要件討論這一個定義的方式我們也認為還需再斟酌"},{"start":4457.213,"end":4470.368,"text":"那場內第三項有關這個加重騎行的規定事實上我剛剛在前一條的時候已經有做過說明就是說這一個跟這個逃亡或者是說這個七寶潛逃的時間點有關那麼其實"},{"start":4475.153,"end":4495.488,"text":"如果真的要用到這一條的話呢只有在有罪判決確定之後才有用那麼這個完全吸住於這個法院的審理的進度是否可能導致大多數的個案沒有辦法使用到這一條對於我們最想要使用的這些被告反而用不到這個其實是有一些問題那以上說明"},{"start":4499.111,"end":4526.743,"text":"那個郭商先等一下因為我們今天是協商今天不是就條文審查因為我剛剛有發現我口誤了一下我們現在就條文的協商不是審查所以其實我們應該就不一樣的地方提出來講就好就不用再去討論這個法條的原理原則或設置目的那些就是主要是就別的不同黨團所提出來的版本大家有不一致的地方提出來"},{"start":4528.378,"end":4551.214,"text":"協商這樣才適合所以可能要跟各位報告一下這個點好那我們請黃委員剛剛有委員垂詢這個刑法跟刑事訴訟法差別在什麼地方刑法是實體法違反實體法才有刑法的作用刑事訴訟法是程序法在程序上面的作用要怎麼樣進行強制處分"},{"start":4552.589,"end":4574.212,"text":"這是兩個完全不同世界的事情不會有重複處罰的問題第一點先回覆第二點剛剛所在講很多問題事實上那個問題是出現在法務部最初的版本上而不是出現在我們的版本上法務部當初所提出一個版本是什麼我唸給大家聽"},{"start":4575.444,"end":4597.134,"text":"被告受拒保責付限制住居經合法傳喚無證當理由不到庭或因逃亡藏匿經發布通緝者就處三年以下有極圖刑兩種行為太一樣第一個受拒保責付限制住居經合法傳喚不到庭就會被處罰的這個是法務部當初2019年的版本這是法務部當初2019年的版本但這個版本"},{"start":4604.642,"end":4630.23,"text":"在我們台灣民眾黨提的時候我為什麼不採法務部的版本就是因為如果覺得這樣子就直接給阿柯刑事處罰太重所以後來才把構成要件再把它進一步嚴格化你經拒法責附限制住居或出境出海經合法重案無證當理由不到庭後面不是或了後面是併經發布通緝"},{"start":4632.819,"end":4654.133,"text":"發布通緝的前提要件是什麼你逃亡才會發布通緝啊沒有逃亡怎麼會發布通緝他那個要件非常的明確啊而且你有沒有逃亡這件事情不是你自己事後再來做審查是之前法院就已經認定你逃亡才有發布通緝的問題嘛"},{"start":4655.598,"end":4684.71,"text":"所以剛剛垂詢的問題啊真正要討論的課題是2019年法務部所提出來那個版本到底有什麼問題啊在我們這個構成要件下面有兩種狀況啊第一種狀況確保折付限制住居金合法傳化無證當理由不到頂這樣還不算喔還要進一步什麼還要進一步認定你逃亡被發布通緝了這個時候才會有所謂構成要件該當性的問題"},{"start":4686.295,"end":4703.672,"text":"第二個 再看一下第二項第二項就116條之二鎖定應遵守的事項當初法務部的條文寫的是什麼違反關於羈押替代處分鎖命應遵守的事項就直接處三年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":4704.793,"end":4730.141,"text":"只要違反羈押替代手段應遵循的事項就直接處三年以下有期徒刑了但我們就是擔心你就這樣就直接處三年以下有期徒刑會太重所以才會再加一個經過制止人再違反譬如什麼譬如說我叫你不可以離開你的住居所結果你離開被我發現叫你不要再離開了"},{"start":4732.472,"end":4754.971,"text":"叫你不要再離開給你一次什麼 給你一次機會叫你不要再這樣做了你還這樣子做 才會有剋於刑事處罰這個是比當初法務部所提出來的條文更限縮更限縮非常的多第三個是有罪判決確定宣告刑然後要加重其刑至二分之一 剛剛"},{"start":4756.474,"end":4784.028,"text":"法務部的代表回答說啊 這個用的例子可能會非常的少不會啊 這個用的例子絕對不會很少剛跑掉的中文字用的就是這個啊剛跑掉的中文字用的就是這一個條用的就是這一個條文啊現在就棄保潛逃沒有處罰的規定狀況是什麼狀況是反正有錢的人啊你把我當初拒保的金額沒收就算了"},{"start":4785.165,"end":4807.036,"text":"他會怕嗎 他不會怕我為什麼說他不會怕我繼續用中文字當作例子當初中文字前面已經有一個罪判了兩年三個月有期徒刑確定他跑了他跑了他跑了最後不是他自己回來投案是他被抓回來他抓回來了以後 然後呢"},{"start":4811.604,"end":4839.549,"text":"然後除了當初的交保金沒收有任何的刑事效果沒有任何的刑事效果更扯的事情是他當初那兩年三個月的回來台灣坐牢坐一年就假釋了坐一年就假釋了在我們現行的法律制度體系下根本就鼓勵什麼你趕快跑啊不跑的是笨蛋真的不跑的是笨蛋有能力而不跑的是笨蛋"},{"start":4841.448,"end":4866.918,"text":"因為他現在的法律效果就太輕了嘛那否則的話當初在司改國職會議的時候為什麼大家會認為就有必要去訂拒不拔潛逃罪就因為目前在刑事訴訟法上面給他訴訟法上的效果太輕了嘛所以才要在刑事實體法上面再給他刑事處罰嘛當初在司改國職會議討論這麼久要討論什麼事情就要討論這件事嘛"},{"start":4870.626,"end":4889.663,"text":"那如果所有委員認為說我們這樣子不斷的去限縮他的構成要件認為這樣構成要件可能還是太寬鬆了要再限縮的更嚴我都尊重啊就把修正動議拿出來嘛你覺得這個構成要件"},{"start":4893.018,"end":4917.227,"text":"還不夠嚴需要更嚴那或者是說你覺得我設定的太嚴了當初法務部2019年那個版本會比較好我們都尊重但是回到主席剛剛講的我還是希望今天協商的時候大家如果有共識我覺得非常好如果不能有共識那也沒辦法了因為我們真的不是第一天第一次在討論這些條文莊委員"},{"start":4926.235,"end":4944.12,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉黃瑋媛剛剛那個講法我倒不同意了我有不同的一個看法就是說不跑的人他未必是笨蛋跑不跑我們都很清楚啊這個人性他自己會去做衡量啊還有的人我親自幹嘛要跑"},{"start":4945.609,"end":4971.617,"text":"有的人輕罪就像剛剛法務部所提出的說明就變成說我因為被通緝沒有到庭發布通緝我沒有到庭然後變成三零以下有企圖性那你單純沒有到跟到底是不是逃亡那個層次還是有不一樣的一個差距2019年這樣的一個版本我也在立法院我也反對啊"},{"start":4974.15,"end":4976.897,"text":"我不是只有 你提出來我也這樣反對"},{"start":4979.212,"end":5004.305,"text":"不是嘛我說你這樣的設計我一定是反對啊同樣你台灣民眾黨你現在的看法還是同樣的道理沒有辦法說服我啊我的意思就是說你到底要處理什麼你如果要處理大咖的現在提出來的條文你又把那些小蝦米給涵蓋進去嘛我的爭點就在這個地方嘛我怎麼會不知道你想處理什麼你要處理中文字拍手啊"},{"start":5005.485,"end":5025.216,"text":"處理那些十惡不赦我拍手啊可是以這樣的條文以我自己我自己的法學素養還有我的腦袋瓜我就沒有辦法去想到出一套怎麼樣讓這些小蝦米讓它回復到原來不要因為這些我們社會上痛恨這些大咖的然後變成你把它一網打盡我的道理在這個地方"},{"start":5026.44,"end":5047.897,"text":"所以說你2019你怎麼樣的一個設計你丟出來我這樣給你反對我的邏輯還是一樣你可以說我沒有與時俱進因為日本有這樣的一個修法日本的法律我也不見得它最先進這個都是要從法則學來看的話其實都要經過彼此的一個大家的一個辯證那確實罪職"},{"start":5052.811,"end":5078.717,"text":"會因人看法而異但是很多行為的太陽其實你要把它全部都放在一起我覺得這個是我比較不能接受尤其是剛剛我們在看的你說你整個草案裡面你如果到最後你說經制止能夠再違反這個過程要件裡面剛剛次長你提到那個我也接受就制止 誰來制止它的主體到底是誰"},{"start":5080.456,"end":5104.915,"text":"制止的形式到底是用怎麼樣來做一個制止那這些在我看來就是過程要件就不夠明確了在我看來就不夠明確了這是我基於法律這樣的一個看法而且你說這個經過有罪判決確定你像比如說你那第三項是不是加重棄保檢查的部分或者說違反那個羈押的替代處分的罪行的"},{"start":5105.575,"end":5125.637,"text":"這個就變成一個不確定性了就變成是我在法院我審理如果快一點跟審理慢一點的話會導致大家適用的狀況就會不一致會有這樣的問題你條文規定下去就會變成有些適用加重有些到最後不適用"},{"start":5128.028,"end":5151.342,"text":"關鍵就在什麼地方 就在法院你審理的速度啊這個是條文法律設計的一個原理會不會產生這一些大家會覺得衝突的一個現象我是請大家去做一併的一個思考否則我再強調一次 我知道你們要處理什麼你們要處理中文字 處理那些大咖的 社會上非常討厭的我向大家都同仇敵愾"},{"start":5153.237,"end":5180.519,"text":"大家的那顆良心長得都是一樣的可是我請你們也特別要去審註我提出來的這一些輕重失衡的問題那你整個過程要件到底是不是有明確的一個問題或者說我要逮住這個大咖的我把這些小的全部為罪的全部都撈進來的問題尤其又涉及到是告訴乃論的部分你這個在處理其實核心概念就只有一個"},{"start":5181.482,"end":5190.289,"text":"你說叫你來 叫你 給你交保了給你折付了 你還敢跑掉你就是對我施法的一個侮辱核心就是在這個地方而已"},{"start":5191.616,"end":5211.956,"text":"核心就是你要真正要講法理就只有這個而已可是他真的是那麼強嗎他有強到說你這個法院司法權他做出一個處分以後那好像是一個天條一樣要去上班的人或者說他因為某個因素他去違反你了我就要用另外一個重罪來伺候你"},{"start":5212.737,"end":5240.082,"text":"有必要達到這樣嗎我這個是條文的設計因為是如此是在討論現在的條文倒不是我要來提出什麼樣修正的問題因為我認為那個部分對我來講我認為那個部分是不必要的所以我就沒有所有的修正的問題以上跟大家做一個報告好那我們今天還是協商啦還是要提醒一下各位我們今天是協商不是就條文審查好那現在我們請那個陳委員剛好舉手那請陳委員表示意見"},{"start":5242.532,"end":5266.122,"text":"好還是謝謝主席的提醒那我還是把我原本要講的講完那我們等一下就是針對協商好吧我們就不再針對條文我剛剛講的這個刑訴法的意思就是說刑訴法已經有說違反的處置方法但是現在看到的修法版本裡面冒出一個從來沒有過的制止這件事情那制止再違反的要件科與處罰這個邏輯跟定義還是沒有說清楚所以我們才會提出我們的擔心謝謝"},{"start":5268.151,"end":5287.461,"text":"好 那這樣子的話 我看就是台灣民眾黨徵定的161條之一跟孟愷委員提案徵定的163條之一好像各黨團之間也沒有共識嘛那如果沒有取得共識的話 那本條一樣予以保留請問各位有沒有意見那個 法官"},{"start":5291.229,"end":5316.839,"text":"主席各位委員 各位先進 大家好就161條之一部分因為刑事訴訟法第116條之二的第一項第八款所定其他經法院認為適當之事項這個是一個概括條款內涵並非明確所以將其列為刑事處罰要件是不是有違處罰明確性原則這個敬請在座就本條其餘部分呢尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定 謝謝"},{"start":5319.298,"end":5335.341,"text":"好 謝謝吳法官那我們接下來就協商第三排序三洪孟凱委員洪孟凱等候所有人提案增訂第163條之二那請問各位委員有無意見把那個前面的保留這個就因為是連動的條文就一定保留吧"},{"start":5348.868,"end":5371.744,"text":"那是否如果大家一致不一致就予以保留好那序號第三洪孟楷等二十二人提案增訂第163條之二部分予以保留好那我們現在好那我們現在協商增訂第十條之一張明"},{"start":5379.246,"end":5398.231,"text":"增訂第十章之一請問這個部分大家有沒有不同意見那就一樣予以保留那我們現在看那個協商序號排序第四增訂第172條之一那"},{"start":5403.208,"end":5422.685,"text":"有台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員林思敏等16人提案委員羅志強等29人提案委員吳宗憲等19人提案好那請各黨團有意見要提出沒有好那沒有的話呃"},{"start":5425.049,"end":5446.633,"text":"民進黨這邊希望保留那請問一下國民黨跟民眾好那那增訂第172條之一部分與保留那我們現在協商排序第五增訂第172條之二台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員林世民等16人提案請問各位委員有意見要提出"},{"start":5449.076,"end":5460.835,"text":"那就增訂第172條之二予以保留好 那增訂第172條之三有台灣民眾黨黨團提案 請問各位有無意見好 那個司法院"},{"start":5463.117,"end":5474.423,"text":"主席抱歉 剛才是針對第172條之二司法院有一點意見 僅供參考台灣民眾黨版草案第172條之二的規定僅列有騷擾的行為太陽至情節比較嚴重的恐嚇則依第172條之三的規定來處罰"},{"start":5486.03,"end":5511.08,"text":"但是前者的法定刑是三年以下有期徒刑得拼合三十萬元以下罰金而後者的法律效果是依其所犯之罪加重其刑之二分之一也就是依照刑法第305條恐嚇罪的法定刑加重之二分之一那相比之下呢情節較重的恐嚇行為所定的刑度反而較騷擾為輕是有輕重失衡的情形見請在座"},{"start":5511.92,"end":5536.708,"text":"至於本條其他部分呢 就尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定 謝謝好 那我們先謝謝司法院對於甄定第172條之二的意見好 那中委員是 我們現在因為在我們現在在協商第172條之三 中委員是要提這個嗎不是 我因為剛司法院有這樣的一個意見嘛那我來表達一個看法啦 就是說"},{"start":5538.528,"end":5560.635,"text":"172條之二這個新增的我比較不清楚我想不清楚說台灣民眾黨他把騷擾這樣的放進去不是說騷擾不行不能入罪我的意思是說你這個也是新增行度提高的一個問題那可是真的會碰到一個為什麼會單獨弄一個叫做騷擾"},{"start":5562.415,"end":5585.001,"text":"就像剛剛司法人所提到的那如果你騷擾變成是三年以下有嫉妒刑可是我恐嚇就比你騷擾還要嚴重我用重強度的用恐嚇的方式那反而是兩年以下有嫉妒刑那我如果用強制的部分我就變成我用更強度的去騷擾證人我反而刑度會比較低"},{"start":5586.617,"end":5614.44,"text":"這個都會牽扯到這個解釋上啊很難去理解的一個地方就是說為什麼放了一個騷擾把它提升上來把它入罪到比那個犯罪的手段或者說去干擾證人的手段更強度的比他強度的反而這些那以後都不用騷擾的啊你幹嘛用騷擾騷擾在三年以下要用恐嚇的都是想用恐嚇的"},{"start":5615.68,"end":5643.449,"text":"這很怪就是讓我比較不能理解所以要提出不一樣的一個看法就是在這個地方那可能大家沒有辦法彼此來說服的話就保留吧好 謝謝鍾委員的意見黃委員簡單解釋一下當初深海國際會議決議出來了以後針對有關於避免你去搞證人"},{"start":5646.001,"end":5673.512,"text":"然後去影響最後在法庭證言的正確性所以針對有關於這個部分要把他入罪這個是共識法務部當初的條文處理了三個太陽一個是騷擾另外一個是行求契約或交付其他賄賂就賄賂證人第三個是無正當理由的不當措施這三款是當初法務部在構成要件上面的設定"},{"start":5675.629,"end":5702.078,"text":"我們在172條之3之所以會做這樣的設定是犯前面以外的罪為什麼交通情形是二分之一那個不是只有限於在恐嚇的行為你有可能對證人重的話如果是以美國的立法例他會去殺害證人他會去殺害證人還有對他為其他的暴力行為也就是基於那個保護的課題"},{"start":5704.192,"end":5719.09,"text":"他本身的特殊性除了他自己本來的個人法律以外你還有加上妨礙國家司法權公正行使的法律所以才會把刑度在設計上面給他拉高我先簡單做這樣子的說明"},{"start":5720.592,"end":5733.957,"text":"好 謝謝那一樣我們的共識就是予以保留那我們剛剛有已經到協商排序第六就是172條之三那請問這個部分大家的意見如何"},{"start":5736.613,"end":5756.251,"text":"而資二剛剛其實已經保留了但是因為剛剛司法院有意見要補充那所以補充完之後大家又有別的補充嘛但實際上我們排序五的172條資二已經保留了大家的結論是保留那請問一下172條資三增訂的部分請問各位有沒有意見"},{"start":5758.493,"end":5768.239,"text":"還是一樣予以保留是不是好那就172條之3排序6的部分就予以保留那我們看一下排序7增訂172條之4那有民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":5774.643,"end":5797.571,"text":"172條之4及林思敏等16人提案第172條之3委員吳宗憲等19人提案第172條之2那修正動議部分是委員吳宗憲等3人所提修正動議第172條之2委員黃國昌等3人所提修正動議第172條之4那請問各位有意見要補充"},{"start":5800.981,"end":5822.087,"text":"主席我想要確認一下我們現在等一下討論的是您有提出來跟民眾黨黨團都有提出來的修正動議版本嗎針對那個部分討論好OK那我們等一下我再發言謝謝那就讓莊委員好那請莊委員那個我跟昭偉"},{"start":5824.121,"end":5847.194,"text":"172之四涉及到在整個意圖使法官一定的裁判跟檢察官一定的處分就是說司法案件在偵辦跟審判當中或者執行的時候去在法定程序外對法官檢察官這個部分涉及到公務人本身我倒很想聽聽看法務部跟法官他們的看法是什麼那個更重要"},{"start":5850.208,"end":5856.931,"text":"請問法務部這邊有沒有要補充 或司法院這邊有沒有要補充司法院沒有 那法務部這邊有沒有要補充這是張司長要講嗎 還是劉主任要講"},{"start":5872.595,"end":5897.081,"text":"有關於司法關說罪的部分就我們都是贊成制定司法關說罪的一個修法方向那就構成要件來說的話簡單說明是有關於台灣民眾黨的這個條文172之4的部分那由於說涵蓋的這個構成要件裡"},{"start":5898.081,"end":5923.177,"text":"是否是已經涵蓋了所有有關於法官和檢察官之間的職權的行使這部分似乎涵蓋範圍還沒有到非常的全面那此外就構成要件中有關於指揮監督長官的定義的部分是否有可以參考的其他法律的規定那最後就"},{"start":5925.698,"end":5934.746,"text":"刑度的部分因為我們是否能夠配合調整成就是依照刑法體力的一個罰金刑度這邊也並同參考謝謝"},{"start":5937.612,"end":5965.663,"text":"好 那鍾委員這剛剛法務部有表示意見了那司法院是沒有他那個意見有講就等於沒講啊那不法關說在講那個是範圍啦那你這個範圍你這個很難去類型化你這個很難類型化就跟剛剛提到的就是過程壓線都完全不明確的一個問題啦那其實你那個一年以上七年以下你們不覺得這個罪行之間跟我們一般法律裡面講的罪行到底是不是有相當的問題嗎"},{"start":5970.875,"end":5991.512,"text":"反而一般民眾是不會碰到這條是針對所有的國民那我想這個我才是在重複上次我們的書面意見裡面其實就已經有提到了這個刑度是否符合罪行相當原則我們上次也有提過這個一樣的意見"},{"start":5992.873,"end":6017.268,"text":"那麼剛剛這個劉主任檢察官所提到的部分事實上是因為這個一定之裁判或處分事實上這個到底有沒有夠明確還有是否包括這個審核強制處分以及這個實施公訴的這個職權的行使事實上也都還有一些餘議所以為求這個明確希望能夠把這個到底適用的範圍能夠納為這個"},{"start":6020.09,"end":6041.135,"text":"更清楚的說明那麼這個因為這個上次的草案裡面沒有處理到修正動議就是我們上次的書面已經沒有處理到修正動議那麼我們已經有針對這個長官這個關說的情形那我們那時候是建議說也要納入那這個修正動議裡面也有"},{"start":6042.716,"end":6057.374,"text":"也有納入了但是到底誰是這個監督長官事實上到時候可能在立法的說明或者說要件上面還是應該要再予釐清到底範圍到哪裡才不會違反這個明確的原則那以上說明"},{"start":6059.67,"end":6073.729,"text":"好 莊委員這題我是覺得你們自己想清楚啦我邏輯很一致啦剛剛所有的條文裡面我是比較怕傷及到無辜啦這個條文沒有傷及無辜的問題喔這個條文裡面老百姓是會喜歡的喔"},{"start":6074.79,"end":6099.386,"text":"你是這些高官 你是這些檢察官 或者法官你拿人民俸祿 而且是很高的俸祿然後呢 又有那麼高的一個地位 還去接受關說能夠去關說的人 一般老百姓也關說不到啦也關說不到啦我從律師到現在 這快三十年的期間我也從來沒有去關說過辦件 所謂的司法的一個案件老百姓看到這種刑責 他是會喜歡的喔"},{"start":6101.401,"end":6107.566,"text":"我比較有疑慮的是說那個範圍啦,我反而是覺得那個範圍不明確啦,否則這整個刑度啊,你要更長的我也沒意見,我也沒意見,是說那個犯規啊,犯規,我怕你們沒有辦法去做一個類型化,是不是有沒有辦法涵蓋啊,不然其他我是沒意見喔。"},{"start":6125.526,"end":6151.198,"text":"好 陳委員好 謝謝主席因為剛剛我說我要發言所以我還是問一下當然還是那個範圍的問題就是假設我們有一個官說他是長成這樣他就是一個他要法官下達一個定戰時狀態的假處分跟他去關說法官要法官做出一個終局裁判那就你們的角度來看這都是一種關說嘛那如果用這個版本的話他可能都會是同一個刑度嗎或者是刑度的差距應該是要有所差別的那如果這個範圍目前我們都沒有辦法釐清"},{"start":6153.559,"end":6179.006,"text":"所以我認為這件事情我們還是要再討論謝謝我想大家應該也是沒有共識那沒有共識的話我們是不是就予以保留因為我自己當過檢察官我覺得這個條件其實是非常的重要好那這樣的話大家沒有共識那我們就增訂第172條之4我們就予以保留好那我們現在協商排序8增訂172條之5"},{"start":6181.307,"end":6192.052,"text":"有台灣民眾黨黨團提案第172條之五及委員林思明等12人提案第172條之四請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出"},{"start":6197.959,"end":6219.797,"text":"172條之事我們剛剛討論的不是就172條之事嗎那個不是不是就是我是排序第八最後一條啦最後一格最後一格因為不同黨他那個條號會不太一樣所以可能要麻煩各位看一下對照表"},{"start":6246.952,"end":6254.698,"text":"基本上172條職務是在保護法官跟檢察官的"},{"start":6261.863,"end":6290.506,"text":"就是不要讓人家為了他們要去影響他們的裁判去搞他們或者是他們的家人如果你為了要影響法官跟檢察官的裁判對他的家人去實施犯罪行為的話就加這種警刑大部分之一基本上這個法條立法的意思就是在保護法官跟檢察官希望他們在執權正當行駛的時候不會讓他們自己或他的家人如果有因此的遭受到什麼樣子刑事犯罪行為的話給他加重處罰"},{"start":6292.047,"end":6305.092,"text":"這個是從美國來的立法例是不是請法務部跟司法院針對這個這麼體貼你們的法案發表一下你們的看法"},{"start":6307.277,"end":6334.644,"text":"請問一下司法院你們也不用去在意那個昭偉講的什麼協商跟審查不一樣啦協商跟審查其實都一模一樣啦就是在互相的看有沒有辦法說服的一個過程啦本來協商也不是只有說什麼是或者不是不行就直接保留還是看看還是大家彼此有時候提出不同的看法到最後有意見會越來越接近或者說彼此會贊同也不一定那到我反而看你們這一條你們怎麼看"},{"start":6337.154,"end":6350.05,"text":"請問司法院有沒有意見要補充?是主席 各位委員 各位先進這個部分呢 尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定謝謝好 謝謝 那個法務部呢法務部"},{"start":6356.425,"end":6361.227,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好那關於民眾黨團所提出來的172條之五這個版本因為在我們法務部提呈報給行政院的草案當中是沒有這個條文那我們了解這個民眾黨團的提案這個的精神應該是跟"},{"start":6371.732,"end":6388.623,"text":"騷擾證人罪是一個延續騷擾證人罪或者是說對證人做一些犯罪行為的一個延續的概念所以把這個概念當中放進來就是就法官跟甲官的一定的親屬或者是利害關係人當中一併的做保護那就這個部分我們感謝民眾黨團的提案那只是說這個"},{"start":6389.884,"end":6414.518,"text":"要件上面因為是為了比方說像使法官為一定的裁判或使蔣官為一定之處分這個範圍是不是有辦法包含就是所有法官跟蔣官一個職務的行為這個部分可能是要再做考量的那另外就是說這個部分是就就是其他的犯罪行為的時候加重情形是二分之一那要不要就就是騷擾的部分也再納進來做這個訂定這個部分也是漸行考量以上"},{"start":6421.563,"end":6444.853,"text":"我講的很簡單啦就請你們回去想清楚請你們回去想清楚給你們多的保護要不要你們如果不要我整條都拿掉都沒有關係喔因為你們前面在講騷擾的時候說這個騷擾這樣好嗎結果到後面檢察官的時候說那檢察官那個騷擾是不是也要放進去就是"},{"start":6446.246,"end":6466.555,"text":"你們想清楚以後把立場統一啦就是因為呢要保護你們的你們現在是聽起來啦感覺是想要但是範圍還不夠廣希望範圍再廣一點剛剛我聽你的意思是這個樣子嘛你們在前面證人的事似乎有感覺到太廣"},{"start":6468.305,"end":6495.202,"text":"沒有所以你們證人的同意這裡也想要報告委員就證人的部分我們的版本當中就是剛才委員有提我們一開始的版本也有放草所以證人的部分你們同意嗎證人的部分我們的草案當中是有把騷擾的太陽放進去是是是所以馬上這邊沒有不一致的情形跟委員報告所以我只問你們最後的立場所以最後一條你們到底想要不要你們如果真的覺得不要我要把它拿掉也沒有關係不要"},{"start":6502.648,"end":6520.082,"text":"我來表達一下意見其實我可能幾乎 我來猜啦司法院跟法務部這邊的看法你像譬如說我為什麼說這個條文你們要聽你們的意見呢那確實會有範圍的不同你像譬如說檢察官他要提要不要看告算不算處分"},{"start":6521.464,"end":6525.634,"text":"或者說你在審核這個強度處分的時候它算不算一種處分"},{"start":6526.656,"end":6554.908,"text":"那就是你們好心就對了啦好心就是說對司法人員對檢察官對法官他的等等等等以下的這一對意圖使他一定的裁判或者檢察官一定的處分在這當中呢你去對他的配偶子一血親三親等旁系血親兩親等裡面的姻親家長家屬跟他訂了婚姻又請他身份上身份上有密切的利害關係人實行犯罪行為者加重其成二分之一其實這種條文有訂就等於沒有訂啦"},{"start":6555.902,"end":6575.932,"text":"有訂等於沒有訂啦你真正這樣去做了以後啊法官本來就會認為是你妨礙我的司法我本來就可以去加重也可以說是一個宣誓性的一個條文啦但是呢那個範圍確實是有沒有辦法去這個會有掛一落萬的問題那掛一落萬到底對還是不對是有意的去把它做疏漏"},{"start":6576.892,"end":6595.25,"text":"或者說這個條文是在講說如果你去做的是這個去請人家請檢察官講說不要上訴不要看告或者是你撤回上訴或者看告那這個部分來就不用加重會產生誤會啦在這裡啦所以這個條文我看還是保留啦那陳委員呢你還要補充嗎"},{"start":6600.668,"end":6615.426,"text":"因为庄委员已经讲出保留我还是提出我的问题好不好主席因为毕竟我也才刚来司法法治委员会我之前都在教文委员会但是我想要问一下除了那个范围之外你们刚刚说希望加上骚扰你有没有建议不是希望是建议"},{"start":6616.067,"end":6632.215,"text":"只是說要不要一併考慮一併考慮這部分我們就希望可以再研議但是我要講的是這個犯罪行為實行犯罪行為者依其所犯之罪加重其刑那我就很好奇我想要請問一下所謂的妨礙名譽跟公然侮辱算不算是犯罪行為算嗎我可以問一下嗎"},{"start":6636.255,"end":6657.955,"text":"算嘛 算那所以如果在很多的司法案件他正在調查的過程當中有些檢察官被支持的民眾罵說檢察官不要臉啊 恨你們啊像這種話對檢察官來說有沒有造成恐懼啊或者是妨礙名譽啊因為他罵他不要臉這樣那像這樣子的犯罪行為是不是你們所定義的那如果是的話就是剛剛講那個範圍的界定我覺得還是很重要好 謝謝"},{"start":6664.275,"end":6681.96,"text":"好那這樣的話是不是我們這一條就保留好那不知道各委員有沒有不同的意見好那沒有的話我們排序八增訂第1、7、2條之五部分就依保留"},{"start":6727.307,"end":6730.174,"text":"那這樣齁,我先宣告欸等一下等一下"},{"start":6731.886,"end":6757.134,"text":"好先宣告本日做協商結論如下台灣民眾黨團提案第161條 增訂第161條之一第十章之一章民及第172條之一至第172條之五委員羅志祥等27人提案第161條委員侯孟凱等22人提案增訂第163條之一及第163條之二委員謝玉鳳等16人提案第161"},{"start":6759.228,"end":6771.199,"text":"委員林思明等16人提案第1、6、1條增訂第10張之一張明及第1、7、2條之一至第1、7、2條之4委員羅志強等29人提案增訂第37張張明及第364條委員吳宗憲等19人提案增訂第10條"},{"start":6777.845,"end":6798.781,"text":"所以十張之一張名第一七二條之一及第一七二條之二委員吳宗憲等三人委員黃國昌等三人所提修正動議均保留送院會處理好那稍待意識人員將協商結論書面製作完成後就交由委員簽名好謝謝各位好散會難得今天這麼順"}]}},{"id":"16584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16584","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eadf824e3382b7a8d0b52fb64476bab8364af80a8cb003b9bac513b8bdaa2dd30d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-10T13:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-10T13:00:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T13:59:00+08:00","duration":3540,"影片長度":"00:59:00","委員發言時間":"13:00:00 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各位委員這邊僅就上一次內委會在10月7號審查案的時候希望是請內政部在一個月內就增列中低收入所需經費協調各相關部會及地方政府辦理那僅就辦理情形說明如下我們在去年的10月29號我們有邀集包括衛福部"},{"start":2636.392,"end":2657.294,"text":"財政部跟行政院主席總署還有最重要的是各直轄市及各縣市政府來開會研商在會中討論的過程中各縣市政府都表達大部分都定有對於中低收入戶的一些減免方案如果沒有定的部分則是或以急難救助來辦理那在執行上其實並無相關的困難"},{"start":2658.555,"end":2673.867,"text":"另外很多的縣市也有表達像包括台北、桃園、台中還有包括新北其實對於有關中央補助的部分其實並沒有意見也無需中央來辦理補助至於希望我們補助的部分是針對"},{"start":2675.328,"end":2700.638,"text":"有收受外縣市的需要進納古塔或者是相關處理的部分則希望希望要增加一些相關的費用那簡而言之在我們12月9號開完相關會議之後其實各直轄市政府及縣市政府都表達其實在執行上並無多大並無相當的困難那另外也在補充在行政院主席總署也有提供意見就是我們近來在以"},{"start":2701.658,"end":2723.291,"text":"114年為例我們年度的一個統籌分配稅款跟一般的補助款其實都已經大幅增加所以有關建議的部分在這個相關各地方政府其實可以本自治權責來自行吸收這個相關增加的費用以上好謝謝我們吳唐安次長的說明那我們就重新回到主要討論那我們先進行簡單的協商現在進行協商"},{"start":2935.477,"end":2937.42,"text":"你直接宣讀 可以嗎 好啦 沒關係還有時間"},{"start":3236.716,"end":3255.866,"text":"好各位委員請回座我們看一下我們剛剛大家商量好的結果因為這個案子經過我們內政部很辛苦跟各地方縣市政府做了這個溝通會商之後基本上已經有達成共識也就是說裁員的部分地方縣政府特別在裁判法通過之後基本上完全有餘裕來做處理那經過剛剛我們各黨"},{"start":3257.707,"end":3278.346,"text":"這個商量之後的文字結果大家共你一個修正動議我現在念一下給大家聽第21條之一修正動議各直轄市縣市政府列冊之低收入戶中低收入戶使用直轄市縣市或鄉鎮市所經營或委託民間經營代理代管之下列公立殯葬設施免收使用管理相關費用一火化廠"},{"start":3279.286,"end":3301.242,"text":"2.骨灰骸存放設施前項骨灰骸存放設施免費之標準由直轄市縣市政府定之好我們用這個是有大家簽字的這個共識那另外因為這個當初提出這個所謂附帶決議的這個爭端已經在溝通的時候解決所以附帶決議的部分我們就不予處理好那我們剛剛的協商結論請問委員會有沒有意見"},{"start":3304.031,"end":3331.809,"text":"好 我們就無意通過那我們就做以下決議討論四項 殯葬管理條例第21條之一 條文修正草案等七案以並案審查完據你去審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員這需不需要經過黨團協商不用好 那麼本案與院會討論時由本席做補充說明那如果沒有問題這個難得我們內政委員會恢復了和諧的氣氛感謝大家本次會議到此結束 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PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1777.814,"end":1801.252,"text":"報告委員會我們現在請主任秘書報告出席委員的人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數本席正式宣布開會拜託現場的媒體帥哥美女們是不是你們讓我們開會不要妨礙官員就不要在官員附近的位置"},{"start":1803.8,"end":1831.105,"text":"也請我們的議事人員來幫忙一下現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上一次的會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第六次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年三月三十一日星期一九十至十二十二分地點全球九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十四人列席委員張其凱委員等八人列席官員今晚會主委彭金榮"},{"start":1832.245,"end":1854.159,"text":"財政部政次 阮清華 中央銀行副總裁朱美麗 國發會 法務部等單位代表即各所屬 相關人員 主席 賴召集委員 會員報告四項預薪族商事會議事錄決定 議事錄確定二 邀請今晚惠朋族務委 金融財政部 中央銀行 國發會及法務部就如何促進台灣金融市場規模發展之執行政策包括國際金融業務OPU"},{"start":1855.58,"end":1882.696,"text":"保險業務OIU 國際證券業務OSU進行專題報告密碑質詢經濟管會主委彭金文報告後藉由委員林德富等14人提出質詢經濟金管會彭主委財政部阮政事國發會金發處邱處長央行朱副總裁法務部曾教授等單位代表及相關人員以答覆決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢集會及答覆或請補充資訊請相關單位一週內以書面答覆委員另要求"},{"start":1883.616,"end":1887.219,"text":"好 報告委員會請問對於上一次的會議紀錄有異議沒有 我們就要確定那麼請議事委員宣讀今日的議程"},{"start":1905.558,"end":1927.524,"text":"報告事項二 邀請中央銀行總裁楊金龍金管會主委彭金龍行政院主席總處陳主席長淑芝財政部莊部長翠雲經濟部郭部長智輝農業部陳部長俊記就川普對等關稅政策實施對我國股會市經濟成長物價房市等向所造成之衝擊與因應措施進行專題報告並被質詢討論事項一審查納稅者權利保護法"},{"start":1932.365,"end":1958.192,"text":"4案1委員賴世保等22人擬拒納稅者權利保護法部分條文修正草案案2委員羅廷偉等18人擬拒納稅者權利保護法第4條條文修正草案案3委員林思明等20人擬拒納稅者權利保護法第7條及第21條條文修正草案案4委員林思明等18人擬拒納稅者權利保護法第21條條文修正草案案2審查加值型及非加值型業稅法8案"},{"start":1960.714,"end":1989.568,"text":"一委員鍾嘉斌等十八人委員鍾嘉斌等二十三人委員郭國文等十七人分別擬具加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案案等三案二委員陳超平等十八人委員邱志偉等十六人分別擬具加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案案等二案三委員賴世保等二十五人委員寬恒等十六人分別擬具加值型及非加值型營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案案等二案"},{"start":1990.288,"end":1997.125,"text":"次委員賴世保等22人擬拒加值型及非加值型營業稅法第58條條文修正草案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2000.992,"end":2017.185,"text":"我們今天原來上禮拜排並沒有專門報告因為這個禮拜一突然川普宣布給台灣加32%的關稅所以我們排到今天做一個各部會的因應報告"},{"start":2021.721,"end":2032.95,"text":"好我們現在這個雖然第一個是專案報告但是我們主要還是原來是審查相關的法案現在就請提案委員說明每一位提案因為提案比較多每一位委員提案一案兩分鐘一案兩分鐘好我們請這個內事保委員先做提案說明"},{"start":2055.073,"end":2073.796,"text":"主席各位先進我的提案現在提三個第一個就是我們這些年來我們每一年幾乎都超增了營業稅非常多但是對於統一發票對於統一發票我們只有說"},{"start":2076.807,"end":2097.381,"text":"這個按照中央政府總預算有全面的營業稅收入總額編3%但是得他還可以不編所以變成是他現在只有編預算的超徵的比如說去年這個超徵了5000多億那裡面呢這5000多億就沒有了"},{"start":2098.101,"end":2124.958,"text":"就沒有了這個3%的統一高票的中獎的機會我這樣算起來106年來以來我們讓老百姓少掉上億次的啦最少1億次的這樣子中獎機會啦所以我把它補起來把因改 把得改成因就這個案子就是這麼簡單第一個案子第二個案子有關於小規模的營業人那麼已經"},{"start":2126.419,"end":2146.804,"text":"75年來到現在114年快40年了我們都沒有調整所以把20萬調整為30萬這是第二個案子我的第三個案子呢是有關於這個納稅者權利保護法的修法我們希望能夠第一個辦公聽會"},{"start":2147.924,"end":2165.578,"text":"第二個外部的專家應該最少二分之一這是兩大的重點我想我三個案子就這樣跟各位做簡單的說明請各位能夠支持 謝謝謝謝賴委員所以我們請林志明委員做提案說明好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2177.403,"end":2198.599,"text":"各位委員 各位先進 大家好我想我針對納稅者權利保護法第21條條文的修正做以下的提案說明監察院在111年裁調之第13號已指出打贏稅法官司的當事人反應法令規定而陷入無限輪迴的司法救濟的困境並侵害賦稅人權"},{"start":2200.64,"end":2224.169,"text":"卻稅捐基增法第21條關於核課期間的規定議裁非故意逃漏稅捐者之核課時間為5年故意者為7年的規定然現行納稅者權利保護法之規定卻未逾15年未能確定其因納稅而者方可不得再行核課因而造成我們民眾萬年稅單的困擾"},{"start":2227.105,"end":2254.291,"text":"此外許多學者專家也都提出相同的意見更何況我們在行政程序法第131條的規定公法請求權時效也不過5年刑事妥數審判法也規定8年內要完成訴訟本法所定的15年不只破壞稅監激增法及行政程序法的原有法律體系以及對人民的時效利益保護嚴重的利益失衡"},{"start":2255.651,"end":2273.857,"text":"納保法是用來保護我們的納稅義務人但是現在卻是在法院撤銷處分後還要再花至少15年的時間等國稅局隨時去查我想因為法院只是撤銷復查的決定以及訴願的決定而非課稅處分"},{"start":2275.237,"end":2302.816,"text":"所以當稅監計政處只要重新做成複查的決定當事人可能又要進行重新的司法救濟沒完沒了所以即使打贏稅法官司還是會輪回萬年稅單的一個困境稅監訴訟我認為應仿效刑事妥數審判法才是納保法的立法目的與精神所以我將現行的條文規定自法院做成撤銷或變更裁判"},{"start":2303.496,"end":2318.806,"text":"之日起逾十五年未能確定其因納稅額者修改為自法院作成撤銷或變更裁判之日起逾七年未能確定其因納稅額者這樣的一個文字修訂敬請各位委員支持好 謝謝"},{"start":2325.95,"end":2350.539,"text":"我們下一位請莊嘉斌委員 莊嘉斌委員 莊嘉斌委員不在郭國榮委員 郭國榮委員 郭國榮委員不在顏寬恆委員 顏康文委員 顏康文委員不在羅廷文委員 羅廷文委員 羅廷文不在陳昭明委員 陳昭明委員 陳昭明委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在我們現在請莊部長進行這個"},{"start":2355.281,"end":2381.886,"text":"這個回應 這個委員的提案內容不過在回應之前啦我們按慣例 剛才漏了一顆洞 主委抱歉那麼介紹一下在場的立委林保福委員林思敏委員吳秉瑞委員陳育臻委員我們各單位 今天各單位來的比較多啦我們只介紹所長喔莊議員的楊金榮總裁"},{"start":2385.7,"end":2413.004,"text":"金管委的彭金榮這個主委以及主計總書的陳主計長財政部的莊部長經濟部的何正次農業部的杜長次以及司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳的陳法官"},{"start":2415.863,"end":2419.924,"text":"謝謝主席那麼我就直接進入提案說明今天我們的這個營業稅當中針對所謂的加值型營業稅過去我們將它的設定標準小規模營業人免開統一發票是20萬元月營業額"},{"start":2445.353,"end":2472.339,"text":"事實上這個37年的標準一直沒有更改那造成的結果就實際上整個人事房租成本都提高的情況之下現在要找到月營業額不到20萬還能夠生存的小店家事實上已經不存在了但是我們要了解當時為什麼給這些未達20萬月營業額免開統一發售的小店家這樣的一個查訂科徵的一個寬免事實上就是為了稅務的減變"},{"start":2474.019,"end":2487.098,"text":"但是實務上現在由於科技的進步這些營業人應該逐步的引導他使用包括行動支付等這些電子憑證的方式來以便他能夠未來"},{"start":2488.221,"end":2510.438,"text":"納入到開立統一發票當中的憑證所以呢我們覺得在五十萬的這個門檻上請行政機關不要再去主張我們會有多少的稅損跟多少營業人會變成免開統一發票事實上目前全台灣將近六十萬的營業人有營登的其實呢絕大部分的小規模營業人"},{"start":2511.198,"end":2515.483,"text":"已經超過大概是超過30萬人佔比是到達6成以上但是這些小規模營業人他的稅負貢獻在我們多達將近6000億的營業稅當中他只不過佔了30億30億"},{"start":2527.659,"end":2546.713,"text":"百分之零點五所以過去這些將近三十萬的小規模營業人民該統一發票的他們的稅務貢獻就是三十億如果我們把合理的調高到五十萬的月營業額給予這些在我們的基本生存線上這辛苦掙扎的小店家給予他們"},{"start":2548.774,"end":2564.884,"text":"5%以下一%或零的納稅額對國家的稅存有限但是對我們整個有辦法訂定輔導措施協助他們往未來50萬以上的營業賣進使用統一發票我們要設定一個優惠的"},{"start":2566.545,"end":2589.904,"text":"激勵機制如果我們今天不調整這個20萬到50萬的基準線我們永遠停留在過去落伍的查定課程也沒辦法鼓勵小規模營業人往他實際上的營業規模往正規的規模去發展所以在這裡我們提案的內容就是要求把過去的20萬的小規模營業人的認定標準提高到50萬以上"},{"start":2591.105,"end":2604.753,"text":"好 謝謝鄭建平委員的一個提案報告我們先就請財政部的莊部長進行這個回應委員的提案內容同時進行今天的總案報告好不好 就一起那個楊洋總裁就第二位好不好"},{"start":2613.379,"end":2624.26,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早今天貴委員會審查大院各委員所分別凝聚的納保法及營業稅法相關條文的修正草案總共有13案"},{"start":2624.761,"end":2648.846,"text":"本部僅作簡要的說明 敬請指教有關賴委員事保等22人提案增訂租稅優惠的擬定在法律送請大院審議前應舉行公聽會並提出稅事支出評估部分與現行的納保法適應細則第4條的規定相同本部敬表尊重有關增訂納入外部專業人士擔任納保官的部分"},{"start":2649.686,"end":2677.579,"text":"考量稅務的法令具有專業複雜而且由資深的稅務捐人員擔任納保官他可以提供納稅者及時必要及有效的諮詢以及協助相較外部人員擔事更能迅速解決問題還有貼近民眾的需求而且也撲授到納稅者的肯定我們建議給予維持另外增訂本部每年應該提出納保官績效報告送大院備查部分本部每年都根據了大院的附帶決議"},{"start":2678.919,"end":2696.645,"text":"提送納保業務績效及考核結果的報告送交貴委員會所以本部敬表尊重有關賴委員世保等22人提案以及林思明委員等20人提案就租稅規避案件刪除補繳稅款加計利息部分查租稅規避案件因案"},{"start":2698.367,"end":2713.008,"text":"補繳稅款一次性的加徵滯納金以及利息是以補繳稅款作為加計利息的範圍不申抵觸司法院4至第746號解釋所揭示的重複計算的這個情勢建議維持現行的規定"},{"start":2714.653,"end":2742.237,"text":"有關羅委員庭委等18人提案將維持基本生活所需費用的檢討期程由每兩年定期檢討修正為每年定期公告及檢討部分和現行納保法的施行細則第三條第三項的規定相同本部競表尊重有關林委員思明等20人提案刪除關於利息得適用提起行政救濟超過15年不得再行核課部分考量該項利息是包含所有的利息"},{"start":2743.117,"end":2767.547,"text":"刪除以后比现行的规定更不利于纳税义务人建议维持现行的规定有关领委员司名18人提案将不得再行合克期间由15年缩短为7年部分考量不得再行合克期间与税捐基增法第21条规定的合克期间两者规范目的及性质不同难以比赋原因而且恐有借新送获取不再合克利益之余"},{"start":2769.127,"end":2785.262,"text":"另外賴委員世保等22人提案徵定公務員違反納保法的規定因移送監察院彈劾或糾舉部分那麼公務員的懲戒法裡面已經有相關的規定以及處理的機制我們建議免予徵定"},{"start":2786.002,"end":2805.879,"text":"有关陈委员超明等18人提案农业会收购农林渔牧产物所制的初级加工品免征营业税的部分依照现行的相关规定已有免征营业税的规定而且以根据农业主管机关的政策目的提供适切的租税优惠我们认为不宜再以扩大"},{"start":2806.519,"end":2833.093,"text":"那邱委員志偉等16人提案實體圖書免徵營業稅的部分那麼現行相關的法例已經有提供了經認可的圖書出版品銷售的收入可以免徵營業稅的租稅優惠所以無需再在營業稅法裡面另外做規定那至於賴思寶委員25人及嚴寬和委員16人所提案的調高使用發票銷售額標準至平均每月30萬元"},{"start":2835.404,"end":2857.682,"text":"恐怕會弱化有關競銷勾擊的制度有造成營業人逃漏稅捐之餘而且會影響民眾索取統一發票對講的權益以及食品安全溯源追蹤還有物價稽查那麼並增加洗錢防治的困難另外中委員嘉賓等18人提案將小規模營業人認定標準由現行平均每個月銷售額未達20萬元提高到50萬元"},{"start":2860.084,"end":2866.989,"text":"以及平均每月銷售額達20萬元未達50萬元的小規模營業人應按稅率1%開立統一發票另外中委員嘉賓的23人又提案廢止查訂課徵制度小規模營業人於118年12月31日前適用稅率1%從119年1月1日起改按5%課徵的部分均採自動報繳營業稅並免用統一發票恐怕會難以掌握他的銷售額造成"},{"start":2889.085,"end":2904.275,"text":"稅捐逃漏情形并且会增加53万余加的查定课程营业人依从成本以及其买售以及他的买售人营业税的负担另外有关增订税及登记销售额标准的部分将会使政府无从了解"},{"start":2904.795,"end":2927.562,"text":"全國實際參與經濟活動的營業人加速地下經濟恐怕會更型惡化那麼有關賴委員世保等22人提案將本部得訂定統一發票給獎辦法修正為應訂定統一發票給獎辦法那本部已經在71年5月28號訂定了這個辦法而且從100年起都按照軍事政府的財政狀況按營業稅全國預算按數的3%編列統一發票的給獎以及推行經費"},{"start":2933.684,"end":2957.987,"text":"以足額的編列如果修正為無論政府的不管政府的財政狀況一律給予3%編列會不會恐怕會有減損政府的財政調整彈性那麼現行的給獎制度以及等等以及經費的編列可以達到防止逃漏控制稅控制稅源以及促進統一發票的推行等立法的目的那麼我們認為還沒有調整的必要性"},{"start":2958.567,"end":2981.776,"text":"那有關郭委員國文的17人以及5委員配議等18人提案的內容和本部114年1月7號報請行政院審查的營業稅法部分條文修正草案內容大致相同那麼該草案等到行政院審查通過後核轉大院審議建議屆時依行政院的版本修正以上說明敬請各位委員指教接下來"},{"start":2984.532,"end":3005.872,"text":"報告有關今天的有關川普對關稅政策的實施對我國的股匯市等項目的所造成的衝擊及因應措施的專題報告這個部分先就涉本部的業務部分做簡要說明如下首先說明的就是107年由於美中貿易戰的爆發後引發全球供應鏈的重組台商加速回台"},{"start":3006.672,"end":3019.163,"text":"擴建產能並且把高附加價值的產線移回國內生產其中包括伺服器供應鏈的廠商以及人工智慧高速運算等新興科技的興起所以107年我國對美國出口的金額是395億美元那麼到大幅上升到113年的1114億的美元6年期間擴增了719億美元那麼出鈔增加了585億"},{"start":3032.914,"end":3039.976,"text":"佔整體出口比重由110.8%提高到23.4%那麼113年台灣對美國的順差達到649億元那麼台灣出口到美國的前30大產品佔我國出口到美國總值的72%主要是以資通訊以及電子零組件的為主"},{"start":3055.38,"end":3075.288,"text":"那麼美國在今年的4月2號發布從4月5號起對全球180個國家實施對等關稅的措施以及對鋼鋁汽車以及特定的零件半導體藥品以外的所有產品除了原有的稅率以外一律加徵10%的關稅而從4月9號起針對貿易逆差較多的57個國家徵收11%到50%的"},{"start":3082.751,"end":3089.622,"text":"不等稅率的對等關稅而對我國課徵的是32%不過根據今天的媒體的訊息白宮的白宮"},{"start":3094.175,"end":3099.457,"text":"白宮的新聞秘書已經證實給予90天期間所有國家徵收10%的關稅包括加末兩國那麼他們的財政部長貝森特也補充說明汽車等產業關稅是保持25%的不變那這個部分呢應該我們是會在這"},{"start":3116.058,"end":3121.259,"text":"加徵關稅10%的範圍裡面而加徵的20%、32%的部分應該會有90天的一個緩衝期我想這個部分補充報告那麼對於我國出口供應鏈支持措施的部分美國對等關稅影響到我國的產業"},{"start":3137.023,"end":3149.369,"text":"有關供應鏈支持的措施的部分首先我就簡單的說第一個就是便捷業者出口通關作業降低行政成本也就是說對保稅區的通關全免裝箱單免裝箱單這個部分可以減少有關保稅區的業者1224家的業者減少製作裝箱單的20萬份"},{"start":3159.853,"end":3165.418,"text":"以及10萬小時作業時間降低業者的成本第二個我們海關會實施遠端集合那麼減少行政干預有助減輕業者的成本第二個我們是提供出口廠商金融的支持包含貿易融資的利息減碼"},{"start":3176.887,"end":3195.255,"text":"那麼最高可以減到500萬元或者是600萬元一個一年的利息那第二個對於輸出保費的優惠的部分呢我們也給予一折的一個優惠然後鼓勵廠商可以去擴大新的市場以及新的客戶那另外我們會提供租稅的優惠支持我國出口供應鏈的產業這包含現行的產創條例裡面的相關的一些投資底檢"},{"start":3200.237,"end":3221.824,"text":"以及目前已經送到大院審議當中的修正條文那這個部分呢如果經過大院審議通過呢可以讓我們的產創條例有關租稅抵減的一個部分可以再做擴大適用那第四個部分就提供受美國關稅衝擊的協助包含繳稅困難的協助措施也就是說受到這個關稅政策的影響而發生財務困難的話沒有辦法在一定繳納期間內一次繳清因繳稅款者可以向"},{"start":3228.746,"end":3257.695,"text":"基增機關申請延期或分期繳納稅款另外對於公股銀行協助措施那麼企業貸款如果因為這些關稅因素影響營運可以根據經濟部協助企業辦理銀行債權債務協商作業要點恰原代公股銀行申請還繳本息或展延繳款的年期那麼由各銀行依照個案來審酌處理來紓緩產業的一個資金調度及營運周轉均的一個需求另外公股銀行也有中小"},{"start":3258.215,"end":3267.954,"text":"及微型企業振興融資方案來持續推動中讓我們中小微企業能夠穩健的經營那麼第三個就是股市衝擊及因應措施"},{"start":3269.35,"end":3292.831,"text":"這個部分國安基金委員會已經在4月8號召開會議那麼全體委員會共事在4月7號由於這個股市的一個動盪不安所以這個部分已經授權由執行秘書是情況動用資金執行市場安定的任務第四個結語為了因應美國關稅政策及對台灣出口廠商的衝擊本部所提出的出口供應"},{"start":3293.431,"end":3296.336,"text":"出口供應鏈支持方案來協助產業因應降低貿易風險確保競爭的優勢以上報告 敬請委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":3313.772,"end":3333.571,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生今天呈邀前來委員會文會報告川普對等關稅增值事實對我國股匯市經濟成長物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施自感榮幸以下緊究本行業務相關部分提出報告敬請匯市指教"},{"start":3334.844,"end":3348.623,"text":"一川普對等關稅實施對國際經濟物價及全球股市的影響第一個對國際經濟影響貿易政策不確定性劇增全球經濟下行風險上升第二頁"},{"start":3350.927,"end":3366.181,"text":"第三頁掛斧二對全球股會市與物價值影響對等關稅政策衝擊全球股會市只要大宗商品價格下跌全球需求降溫可抑制通膨壓力請翻開第五頁"},{"start":3368.183,"end":3385.855,"text":"二川普對等關稅實施對國內經濟成長物價房市之影響告一對國內經濟成長之影響美國對等關稅政策實施後將限縮台灣出口成長動能以制約全球經濟動能進而影響台灣經濟的成長請翻開第六頁"},{"start":3392.124,"end":3411.964,"text":"阿拉伯4-4目前投資銀行預測對等關稅對本年台灣經濟成長減少0.4%到1.1%上市評估結果為初步簡略估算美國公布之對等關稅稅率遠高於預期主要國家人大與"},{"start":3412.685,"end":3437.465,"text":"美國就關稅議題協商因此對全球經貿影響可能不如預計評估的的嚴重為其衝擊效果仍具不確定性此結果僅供參考第七月對國內物價之影響美國對等關稅實施產生政府政府兩股力量互相拉扯物價阻塞對台灣通膨"},{"start":3438.766,"end":3464.923,"text":"利益影響具不確定性為政府面衝擊附體對台灣通膨影響可能有限對國內房市之影響美國對等關稅政策對國內房市雖無直接影響為可能透過對國內經濟金融情勢之衝擊而間接影響房市川普對等關稅實施對國內匯市之影響已應措施"},{"start":3470.208,"end":3494.053,"text":"本行提出了四個因應策略第十月一建立場內外監理機制第二如預市場供需失衡至新台幣匯率過度波動本行將進場調節以維持新台幣的匯率的穩定十一月被投充配的外幣流動性第四提供國內金融市場外幣資金流動性"},{"start":3497.411,"end":3515.868,"text":"12月4 本行將密切關注國內企業取得融資情形採取妥適金融穩定的措施及貨幣政策來因應13月9 未來本行將持續關注國內通膨發展情勢並密切關注美國經貿政策主要經濟體貨幣政策調整步伐"},{"start":3518.83,"end":3532.764,"text":"步調等對國內經濟金融形勢之影響適時調整貨幣政策以達成維持物價穩定與金融穩定並於上述目標範圍內協助經濟發展之法定職責以上報告敬請各位委員會議執教謝謝"},{"start":3535.077,"end":3557.217,"text":"好 非常謝謝央行總裁的精簡精彩的報告那麼報告委員會因為我們今天的議程比較多所以其他單位的報告請各位自行參閱我們就不進手中報告了等一下有問題可以搜尋他我們現在開始詢答做以下的宣告"},{"start":3558.018,"end":3575.005,"text":"每位初選委員發言8分鐘 必要的時候延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間4分鐘上午10點截止發言登記現在依照登記的順序 請登記第一位的林伯福委員資訊 請"},{"start":3589.423,"end":3599.633,"text":"謝謝主席一位各部會首長還有各位同仁我們是不是我特別來邀請這個中央銀行楊總裁"},{"start":3608.843,"end":3634.586,"text":"林委員早總裁你好我請教雖然川普昨天又宣布對於未報復美國的這些國家關稅措施暫緩90天的實施但針對川普關稅政策對我國股匯市以及經濟成長物價包括房市所造成的衝擊與因應的措施我請問總裁"},{"start":3636.247,"end":3646.455,"text":"對於川普關稅政策我國各層面帶來的衝擊你認為影響是一時的還是有可能遞延的影響"},{"start":3648.302,"end":3673.853,"text":"包委員這個就是說90天的這個觀察期這個舒緩的就是說他一開始對整個全球的影響但是這30天呢這個90天呢還必須要觀察所以就是說如果說這個這個不確定性還是依然的揮之不去還是存在他還是會存在那個莊財是那你認為這個"},{"start":3677.97,"end":3704.302,"text":"會不會有可能這個地緣的影響又或者相互間會產生一些連動的效應會不會當然啦就是說剛剛也就是說如果這個不確定性的因素沒辦法消除的時候呢那麼這個影響就會一直遞延下去那這樣的話呢就事實上對整個全聯來講的話他的金融市場的一個波動度呢還是會還是會有這樣齁總裁"},{"start":3706.483,"end":3728.533,"text":"因為本席這個憂心的是這個基於受衝擊的是全球各大經濟體所以說影響時間長效應深遠那請問你認為會不會發生全球關稅戰會不會現在看起來就是說有一些的國家要去跟他談"},{"start":3729.433,"end":3753.533,"text":"當然我在想這是我個人的看法就是說川普也知道就是說這一次的這個一開始的那個衝擊是非常大的所以應該就是說他在談判上應該會比較鬆一點但是至於對於那些就是說要跟他硬碰硬的這個還是會造成整個全球的一個經貿的影響"},{"start":3755.314,"end":3781.899,"text":"而且是對岸中國你看他中國也是很硬喔是喔是喔是喔他不但這個不跟他談甚至於還也給美國加很大很大的關稅那因為以目前我們整個政府的因應措施九大面向二十項的措施總經費八百八十億的協助方案你認為是不是足以來應付川普關稅政策帶給台灣的衝擊"},{"start":3785.1,"end":3792.264,"text":"這個是我個人的看法啦我不能代表行政院來回答這個問題當然880億是現在的一個評估那現在就是說要一段期間之後還要再評估他這個880億是不是足夠"},{"start":3806.173,"end":3831.266,"text":"如果說他的一個影響是很大他的衝擊是很大的話那恐怕這個金額還是要加大因為以你中央銀行專業的立場應該你是可以就是比較深入啦謝謝你鼓勵川普暫緩90天的實施新關稅你認為政府因應措施是不是也會有一些遞言的實施遞言效果的實施"},{"start":3834.268,"end":3857.675,"text":"應該 我想呢 也應該要就未雨綢繆那所以就是說 雖然這三個月的時間可以再有一個密切的一個觀察不過呢 我總覺得提早準備是更好對啊 你要做充分的準備啊請問總裁 這次國安基金的進場你認為護盤基金需要多少嗎"},{"start":3859.675,"end":3864.137,"text":"因為以前富盤基金說5000億不過市場有一些建議希望5000億能夠擴大不過如果說我們來看待我們的股市它的市值確實"},{"start":3879.443,"end":3891.418,"text":"它是增加了將近是增加是很多的那你等於是購水休息嘛那這個可以評估這個可以考慮不過這個是國安基金它本身要那你認為護盤的時間會不會比以前更久"},{"start":3892.869,"end":3916.921,"text":"這個我沒辦法來預測這個我沒辦法預測總裁因為川普關稅政策的效應你認為會不會讓我們整個台灣股市提前走入熊市會不會現在目前還是那個uncertainty就是他的不確定性真的還是非常的高所以我們現在如果說要做一個很"},{"start":3918.082,"end":3936.563,"text":"很直接的就是說下一個判斷說實在是言之過早那個總裁因為這種面對關稅政策的股市反應到底是這個人造熊市的短期現象還是會加速來催化"},{"start":3937.364,"end":3957.843,"text":"整個台股啊走入空頭市場的前奏曲一鳴看所以還是在強調的就是說這個不確定性不確定性還是在強調這個不確定性如果說這個不確定性可以把它排除掉的時候呢我覺得啊應該股市它還是會回歸到它的基本面總裁"},{"start":3959.161,"end":3986.374,"text":"你曾說你對從對等關稅的角度來看台灣應該不在其中就算台灣對美順差大也因台美是互補的關係所以這個不是不公平這個貿易那我請問總裁是所以你對台美貿易的互補關係的看法對照美國對台灣科"},{"start":3988.995,"end":4012.62,"text":"32%的關稅的決定 請問到底是我們誤解台美關係還是美國根本就是吃定了我們你認為呢 吃定了台灣我認為他也不是單獨就台灣來 就是說吃定我們台灣只是說他的一個公式呢 他的不合理性是適用所有的國家"},{"start":4013.84,"end":4026.283,"text":"適用所有的國家所以我們也不能說他單獨對我們因為他的這個公式是太過粗劣了太過粗劣不是粗劣 粗暴對 應該是說粗暴太過粗暴了所以也不是說他只是針對台灣來那主要的就是說因為台灣對他的貿易順差是大了但是他都沒有考慮到台灣的這個對他的順差事實上是他需要我們的產品"},{"start":4043.067,"end":4046.871,"text":"我們什麼都給人家的啊我們產品對它的生產力是有貢獻的也就是說我們台灣對它的一個共識是蠻大的我們產品對經濟的生產力是很有貢獻的現在最嚴重就是我們沒有籌碼跟人家談"},{"start":4060.752,"end":4080.715,"text":"你認不認同因為你的戲隊我們台積電已經說要去那裡設廠那些衛星工廠也跟著都去甚至於啊他把其他的一些有關IC的產業全部都要過去你說未來我們是剩什麼對不對總裁針對川普的"},{"start":4082.056,"end":4103.302,"text":"關稅政策請問總裁你認為川普真的是以對等關稅來作為出發點的決定如果是以賴總統回應川普不採取關稅報復從零關稅談起的立場台美之間能夠站在實質公平的立足點來談判協商嗎你認為呢"},{"start":4104.782,"end":4127.81,"text":"我想這個是雙方啦雙方當然就是說要對等的話呢就必須要去好好的談那當然要去好好的談那這個呢彼此會互相更了解所以你看我想應該就是說各個國家去跟他談的話應該會有效果這是我個人的猜測但願如此啦總裁如果川普"},{"start":4129.03,"end":4148.998,"text":"關稅政策是手段公平貿易是政策合法性的包裝最終目的是在其他方面請問你認為台灣要怎麼去面對這種不確定性的政策呢所以唯一的途徑還是就是說去跟他好好的談"},{"start":4150.534,"end":4168.391,"text":"這是唯一的途徑總裁本席任何大多數人都不樂見好不容易慢慢互輸的疫後經濟又轉壞但是川普政策的不確定性的負面影響恐怕比較大"},{"start":4169.372,"end":4187.522,"text":"那最近啦 台經院也公布二月景氣動向調查後張建義院長表示以對等關稅或是貿易量貿易順差來看台灣可能是汽車啦 農業產品影響較大那總裁 如果農產品關稅影響大請問你認為會不會對國內進出口農產品的價格產生這個聯乙的效應"},{"start":4199.369,"end":4216.866,"text":"我想如果說是農業產品的話可能是會啦但是就是說這個也就是說如果說對這些的產業有發生比較大的損失的時候我覺得政府也可以考量到要做某些的一個補償"},{"start":4217.867,"end":4239.566,"text":"那如果會的話你認為今年的CPI還有CCPI是不是會出現上修的空間會不會到目前為止我們還是認為我們的物價還是會穩定的會穩定總裁根據美國財經媒體彭博模型的推估一旦對台灣課徵32%的關稅台灣對美出口將減少"},{"start":4245.19,"end":4265.578,"text":"約63%大約會讓GDP縮減3.8%那我請問總裁你認為彭博模型是高估還是低估整個關稅對台灣GDP萎縮的影響我想彭博的這個我總覺得是他可能是用很"},{"start":4266.218,"end":4279.789,"text":"很悲觀的一個情境用很悲觀的情境但是呢就誠如我們的報告所說的到目前為止呢這都是僅供參考而已啦因為後續還有談判啊什麼之類的所以這個就是還有一點就是主攻參考啦"},{"start":4283.012,"end":4309.603,"text":"只供參考總裁請問你認為我們政府需不需要調整整個政策方向換句話說新南向國家萬一受關稅關稅戰的影響政府會不會調整既定的政策計畫會不會我想台灣是一個是一個小型開放的經濟體我們國際化還是要國際化的國際化還是國際化但是這一次的關稅的政策"},{"start":4310.663,"end":4322.939,"text":"因為它的一個供應鏈的一個場所呢還是會做一些某些的調整所以還是會調整的還是會對啦事前要防範啦要做多元啦怎麼去杜絕防範好謝謝謝謝林委員的質詢下一位請吳秉樂委員質詢請"},{"start":4342.694,"end":4346.917,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部專部長昨天川普宣布這個都回到10%的這個基準"},{"start":4364.164,"end":4385.204,"text":"就是暫緩90天 暫緩90天內就是要談判可是美國的另外一個政策就是他對中國關稅不斷沒有降 還做了幾個動作第一個 小額包裹 全部從5月2號開始要收稅而且要加到90%"},{"start":4387.27,"end":4405.677,"text":"因為美國有10億件的小額包裹絕大多數都是從中國去的那我就是在這個地方已經問過很多次了我認為小額包裹進到台灣來的免稅額度現在你們的規定是新台幣2000塊這個對台灣的製造業是不公平的"},{"start":4409.932,"end":4438.469,"text":"台灣的製造業的廠商產品從工廠出來還要貨物稅 還要營業稅各項的稅金結果從中國來的包裹2000塊以下是免稅這就讓台灣的廠商先天上就處於一個不公平競爭的關係這個我已經跟你提過很多次了而且去年前年都有提過"},{"start":4439.468,"end":4452.455,"text":"那你以前給我的回答就是說因為全世界大家都有這個小額商品小額包括免稅的規定所以你認為台灣調整的那個時機還沒到那美國這次調整了那台灣要不要調整啊"},{"start":4459.5,"end":4478.745,"text":"美國是要跟他課90%的關稅我還不敢說要求這樣只是說應該也要照其他貨品的這樣關稅來課這個你的看法怎麼樣是謝謝委員 委員確實好幾次有提到這個那因為尤其是我們的小豪包裹來自於海運快遞的相當的多"},{"start":4479.301,"end":4505.778,"text":"而且這裡面是中國大陸裡面佔的比例更高達五成以上那至於對於所謂少額的包裹是否免稅目前來說免稅的兩千塊是不是要做一個調整這個也是目前我們正在做一個分析的部分也就是說因為美國是對中國大陸所進口的這個小的包裹的部分課徵百分之九十的稅那我們這個部分是不是要做調整是可以做一個思考的"},{"start":4506.243,"end":4534.664,"text":"因為我們主要的也是從中國來的中國都是用低價的商品用這個走這個漏洞小額包裹免稅的這個漏洞源源不絕地一直來啊其實就造成了台灣的製造業處於一個不公平的競爭關係所以逼得台灣的製造業過去必須要外移要移到中國 移到東南亞這跟這個有關啊所以如果像看美國的政策川普的政策他是要讓製造業重回美國"},{"start":4535.865,"end":4547.079,"text":"那如果台灣要重新扶植我們的製造業這個小額包括這個我強烈建議好好檢討我認為我是贊成完全取消的好第二個問題電商有一些台灣的電商就落地了"},{"start":4554.534,"end":4579.1,"text":"也有一些外國的電商落地沒有落地的電商會造成一個問題我一直在擔憂這個問題 我也跟你提過對於民法的加害給付無法處理今天進來不是說這個東西瑕疵不好用 品質不好不是只有這個問題喔如果進來的東西 舉一個例子 進來是有毒的"},{"start":4580.509,"end":4609.543,"text":"穿在身上引起過敏的或是說拿到什麼樣子的簡單的電器品結果它是爆炸的這個在民法上叫加害己負啊加害己負是除了產品本身沒有那個價值之外對於使用者還造成了傷害這個民法裡面規定這是要損害賠償的嘛或是走契約關係的不完全己負要求賠償兩條路徑可是電商如果沒有落地啊"},{"start":4611.091,"end":4637.367,"text":"請問消費者要去跟誰糾纏確實委員非常關注這個問題但是我們目前我們知道有關在我們已經要求這些網路要辦理這個稅籍登記大家都有落機那當然還有您提的就是沒有落地的部分確實在消費上會對消費者的保護是不夠的我現在要跟你講我的想法不是只有落地還要要求在台灣登記的資本額要實收"},{"start":4638.646,"end":4665.034,"text":"我舉個例子淘寶網隨便賣到台灣來的瑕疵貨品如果對消費者造成傷害我要求償啊那求償他要有資歷啊如果他落地之後他的資本額是很低的他的一兩百萬登記的資本額那我告他他都賠不起而且大家知道嗎國際這些貨物的流通喔有時候一進來的數量就相當大他有可能造成集體消費者的傷害"},{"start":4666.368,"end":4672.244,"text":"過去我們說有一些中國來的這些或是東南亞來的這些家具"},{"start":4673.274,"end":4699.185,"text":"你用記的但是在裡面如果那個害蟲沒有防治或是那個塗料有含超過台灣的這個可以核准的標準這些都有可能間接造成消費者的損害所以我在這裡要跟你說不是只有要落地我要要求要落地而且要要求有足夠的資本額當它發生這樣子的對消費者造成損害的時候還有求償的機會"},{"start":4700.586,"end":4718.3,"text":"不然難道要叫台灣的消費者跑到中國去打官司告他那邊的人嗎早就人去樓空不知道在哪裡啦對委員這個建議喔因為財政部這邊主要是稅籍登記那您剛剛提到的一個資本額以及相關的登記我們會跟經濟部這個部分再來討論經濟部的次長不是有來嗎來請上台好"},{"start":4729.588,"end":4753.473,"text":"我剛剛講的問題你應該有聽到啦那政策上面一定要趕快研議趕快這樣處理因為我覺得這個未來一定會造我在這個地方斷言不處理未來一定會發生那你發生的時候你不要讓他說沒有辦法因為電商沒有落地對你造成的所謂你自己到他的國家去告他這樣子消費者是不能接受的喔"},{"start":4754.486,"end":4774.958,"text":"市長你的看法怎麼樣我們會照委員的提醒我們回去來研議你現在看人家金管會有一些金融商品要落地公司必須要落地不然不能讓他做交易你那個金融是商品你這個是實質貨物商品更需要這樣"},{"start":4777.668,"end":4792.615,"text":"金融商品造成的金融損失你這個商品實質的商品還有可能造成人身身體的損害呢所以可以取法於人家的這樣的規定要求這些落地 請你回座再來要請教部長其實"},{"start":4796.096,"end":4824.168,"text":"這一次你知道越南為什麼要去跟美國談關稅美國都不要跟他談你知道什麼原因嗎當然他提了除了關稅稅率之外還有美方也認為說你還有非關稅的貿易壁壘的問題存在最重要的問題就是認為在幫中國的產品洗產地洗產地所以這是一個台灣未來要面對很嚴肅的問題台灣如果被美國認定有在幫中國的商品洗產地"},{"start":4826.38,"end":4851.767,"text":"我們可能將來最嚴重要承擔跟中國一樣的關稅所以這個是其實我個人的認知啊川普出這個重權目的第一目標就是對準中國所以為什麼東南亞這些國家都跟美國講說那我們都不要關稅 我們關稅都零川普仍然不能接受 美國仍然不能接受就是因為他在對付中國的起產地"},{"start":4852.759,"end":4880.607,"text":"好那你知道台灣目前有哪一些東西可能有這些嫌疑的跟委員報告對於有關席產地也就是違規轉運這個部分我們都非常重視那在海關的部分已經建置了三道防線就是事前的預防事中的嚴查以及事後的嚴懲罰事中的管理那這個部分的在三道防線之下事實上我們已經有相關的績效抓到一些"},{"start":4881.107,"end":4900.624,"text":"抓到一些這種違規轉印的情形同時我們也跟經濟部這邊成立一個橫向的一個機制也就對於我們認為高風險的廠商我們都會定時的名冊給經濟部然後他們對於在核發有關產地證明或許可證的時候要更加的嚴格審核那在我們海關的部分也會再做經濟"},{"start":4902.225,"end":4921.086,"text":"杜絕這個違規轉運你的自由貿易港區喔 境內關外中國的貨品送到自由貿易港區來不用進到台灣的關轉口出去這個要做詳細的調查跟統計我們這個漏洞如果被美國抓住了對台灣是不可承受之重"},{"start":4921.98,"end":4941.446,"text":"所以我是先把這個話講在這邊喔你們執政者要很小心這個問題因為美國現在既然要用這麼高的關稅對抗中國對付中國中國跟他高度對抗所以美國會更重視其產地的問題不要為了那一點點的銀頭小利"},{"start":4943.306,"end":4950.192,"text":"去讓整個國家的貿易崩潰那個後果是非常嚴重的要加油好不好好 加油 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳秉瑞 吳委員來 繼續 來賴昭偉 來賴世袍"},{"start":4966.62,"end":4976.852,"text":"謝謝主席 有請央行的楊總裁 以及財政部的莊部長以及經管會的彭主委三位長官三位長官好"},{"start":4987.72,"end":4998.167,"text":"最近這個禮拜都是川普週大家大街小巷談著川普他現在本來大家看起來一副1930年代1929、1930年那時候的美國總統"},{"start":5006.598,"end":5023.334,"text":"那時候也是做兩件事情一件 關稅引起關稅的大戰第二個呢他做一個升息這點川普比較聰明川普比較準備降息所以那時候開始就來一個大蕭條"},{"start":5025.832,"end":5038.284,"text":"這個美國的股市花25年才讓它回到原來那個水準所以這個東西很慘烈啊 看起來很慘烈那現在 這個好不容易川普啊 這個說暫停90天只剋10%了 美股大漲"},{"start":5043.888,"end":5046.552,"text":"從此我們台灣的股市從此過上幸福美滿的日子一路往上攀升"},{"start":5060.127,"end":5085.143,"text":"要我回答嗎我剛剛也在講就是說金融市場他很顧忌的就是不確定性那所以也就是說這三個月給他緩衝因為這三個月他的結果是什麼還不曉得所以基本上整個的市場還是會籠罩在不確定性"},{"start":5085.983,"end":5102.893,"text":"所以不確定就不會一路往上衝因為他可能會做某些就也許有些時候會上去但是也許有些時候風吹草動的時候他又會下來所以不會就說現在美國要的資源不都滿足了他現在要的就是他這個財政部長講說640幾億的貿易逆差其實也從美國的資料算是739億那我算這個來講的話來講的話"},{"start":5115.561,"end":5133.931,"text":"台灣雖然現在90天裡面暫時豁免但是還是要課10%喔但是原來是1.7%中間就差8.3%8.3%是什麼概念我們去美國多少一年的輸出多少去年1100多億1100多億我們乘以8.3%大概90幾億美金整合台幣3000億所以從現在開始"},{"start":5145.356,"end":5149.241,"text":"他雖然把我們說要暫時90天暫時WAVE掉暫時免除32%可是我們關稅仍然多付3000多億給美國"},{"start":5156.961,"end":5160.243,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們出口出去的產品他進口台灣的產品那這個要分大類可以分三種產品一種產品他就是他剛需他比較需要的"},{"start":5177.054,"end":5191.081,"text":"那需要的話 那這個就是說我沒有時間 只能聽你分析喔你現在就跟我講這個數字對不對啦對 這個呢 這個就是說你講的就是說是最嚴重的時候是最嚴重沒有 最嚴重就是這個數字在這裡喔最嚴重的 來來來這個再確定一下喔他講說75國戰死後面 有沒有報告台灣確定"},{"start":5200.001,"end":5227.197,"text":"他這個七十五國就應該是有包含了沒有應該還是確定這個我不曉得莊部長要不要確定一下七十五國有沒有包含台灣確定沒有他是講七十五國有去表達跟美國去協商那至於後來我們剛剛有講那個白宮的秘書有華爾街日報有他有表達他有直接就說除了中國以外"},{"start":5227.797,"end":5243.04,"text":"其他的國家可增基本的關稅就加增10%的基本關稅可是他這次靠的是全國全世界是一百八十幾個國家欸不是只有只有只有七七七只有八十個國家不是欸他靠的是一百八十幾個國家"},{"start":5243.641,"end":5263.285,"text":"就是全部的國家它是加徵10%的關稅另外有其他大概57個國家是加徵到另外有加一個4月9號以後是高於10的11到50%的一個對等關稅這個部分還有加25%的還有加25%的25%的那個是232的貿易條款裡面所以它也有一些暫時豁免的一些部分是"},{"start":5271.28,"end":5276.494,"text":"沒有 所以我就問你 你還沒有給答案嘛台灣是不是確定在這75個豁免國家裡面 有沒有"},{"start":5280.9,"end":5308.371,"text":"美国新闻秘书所发布的就是它有证实这个部分确实是所有国家征收百分之十的九十天的期间所有国家加征百分之十的关税那当然中国不在里面啦就是确定嘛中国大陆不在里面我们在里面根据它这样的证实那现在我们现在来讲说我们的进口从美国进口我们要零关税这样子税损多少"},{"start":5311.236,"end":5331.745,"text":"至於零關稅這個部分根據總統也提到說從零關稅開始去跟他們去做談判那至於最後是不是所有的貨品是不是零關稅我想我們的貿易談判的工作小組他會去做模擬各種方式所以他不知道這個部分我們先跟報告的就是說我們知道去年的我們從美國進口的一個"},{"start":5333.966,"end":5335.147,"text":"4百多億美金客徵對美國徵收的關稅是7.5億美金"},{"start":5343.262,"end":5364.718,"text":"7.5億美金美國計算7.5億美金但是裡面很多農產品對農民的損失對農民的壓力非常大的這個部分當然產業主管機關會去衡量第三個部分各縣市政府都希望財政部給他降稅"},{"start":5368.481,"end":5386.59,"text":"這個時間總裁也講了現在不穩定喔還不穩定喔沒有因此走上一個幸福快樂的日子還沒有喔還沒有到not ready yet你這個怎麼回應各地方政府希望能夠降稅降你的營所稅或降什麼稅whatever"},{"start":5387.571,"end":5410.417,"text":"有沒有可能這個部分對於有關的產業供應鏈的一個支持方案行政院已經提出了那支持方案裡面的一些項目或有沒有減稅這一項沒有減稅這一項沒有減稅這一項租稅的部分第一個租稅部分產創條例裡面有相關的一些減稅的優惠以及我們今天也我們也同時提到在我們的報告也提到"},{"start":5410.897,"end":5436.483,"text":"如果廠商受到或者民眾受到這個衝擊的話那稅可以申請延分期繳納分期繳納或者延後繳納沒有減稅這個所以沒有減稅這個選項啦所以地方政府是白搭的啦白講的啦那我再請教這個彭主委啊台灣的股市過去幾天是不是已經進入休市了是不是"},{"start":5437.709,"end":5461.23,"text":"當然沒有 我們過去其實兩天交易量其實非常正常熊市是看你的跌幅啊不是那個當然是比如說剛才像今天跌幅超過120了對 當然比如說學理上有一個所謂的熊市的定義不過熊市還是要看它實際上的狀況我們看今天的情況如果說回復以外就按照那個定義其實上可能還不到那個程度"},{"start":5463.444,"end":5484.245,"text":"其實從去年的七月中到今年的一月初啊就已經跌了22.9%那時候老實講 從去年中到今年初如果按照20%的一個講法就是熊死了所以好 那今天這樣子活著暫時豁免90%要有他的立場 你有你立場"},{"start":5485.633,"end":5500.981,"text":"從此台灣的股市是不是一路順利往上走當然今晚會不會去預測未來的走勢那我想說因為他是充分的反應我想各位如果有比較過過去這個台灣的產業結構還跟國際股市的發展台灣在這三天確實是"},{"start":5506.944,"end":5518.61,"text":"應該是有疊的比較多那實際上我覺得應該製作事實的回覆我想這個部分應該是很合理的好 請兩位長官先回座我再請那個楊總裁楊總裁啊是你在這裡回覆一個立委講說外匯存底92%買美債這個是確定嗎 對不對這個沒有確定"},{"start":5533.516,"end":5541.022,"text":"你都公開回答了不是我公開我是我們的副總裁副總裁講錯了但是是確實他是說錯了"},{"start":5543.234,"end":5547.596,"text":"還是多少我們應該又說是8以前我就講過啦我們的美債大概有八成以上八成八十八十一八十二八九八成八成以上因為我也不能就是說跟你講是一個確定的數據為什麼呢因為匯率呢匯率都時常在變動所以這個比例也多大概85左右可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":5572.421,"end":5583.985,"text":"可以這樣猜 我猜85%左右沒有人沒講我只能說是80%以上85%也是80%以上啊現在有一種講法說川普為什麼把這次跟世界這樣子"},{"start":5593.289,"end":5598.879,"text":"開這個手術大刀就是希望能夠解決他的美債的問題因為美債超過36兆美金這個講法對吧"},{"start":5605.919,"end":5630.508,"text":"對啦 也可以這麼說但是我覺得比較準確的說法是說他要把美國的政府的deficit就是他的budget deficit要能夠下降下來對嘛 就是要減少他的美債嘛那以現在來講的話日本或者大陸都在拋售美債"},{"start":5632.789,"end":5654.519,"text":"500億最近有一個數字跑出來了雖然還沒有到最後Final這樣子因為他今年6月美國6.5兆的美金6.5兆國庫券再到期了被要求轉入長債長債高達30年50年那利率更低有的甚至一到0"},{"start":5655.419,"end":5676.031,"text":"一百年常在因為你看它常在三十年期的多現在比十年期的多還高啊怎麼有可能就是說那個把它到一百年那然後呢是零利率這個是不可能的不可能那不可能外面有媒體這樣破頭我覺得這是不可能的好最後一點我們就請潘主委上來請那個楊總裁下去請"},{"start":5682.114,"end":5709.876,"text":"本身有一個小問題我們就可以下去了不少出入股市者怕被斷頭用保單 用信貸來支應萬一股市再跌要像這樣 stable 完全穩定會不會產生系統性的風暴儘管會怎麼來對這些人這些人很多是剛加入股市的特別是年輕的剛大學畢業或者在學生 在校學生"},{"start":5710.837,"end":5728.569,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實我們非常關注這個問題我們也隨時請交易所關注這個比如說他們這些的profile長什麼樣我們發現這個段頭的大概是七成大概就是40到69歲的族群是占最多數那其實這個部分當然人數最近比較多"},{"start":5729.389,"end":5758.428,"text":"但是我覺得我們這個部分呢還在一個可控我們是會提供一些盡量提供一些協助像我們的第一波的像我們第一波的方案裡面也提到就是說再來就是我們希望可以比如說這個補這個擔保品的部分呢能夠更多元我們市場上反映很多問題我們就立刻去解決當然有些系統上的問題不是一下就能解決不過我們這部分呢我們就盡量去協助這些因為這個不確定因素而遭受一時之間沒辦法融通的這些"},{"start":5759.328,"end":5774.479,"text":"現在目前看起來還不至於我覺得你需要跟這些年輕的對外多教育教育我們還是真的是非常非常的關心這個問題我們持續的就請教育所這邊會關注 謝謝好 下一位請 郭光榮"},{"start":5795.143,"end":5799.426,"text":"主席有請彭族偉莊部長楊總裁經濟部次長以及農業部副農業部次長"},{"start":5812.534,"end":5829.479,"text":"主委好 總裁好 大家好我先請教一下莊部長莊部長你也知道我在媒體上有一些發言就是五千億的安定基金到底夠不夠原來的這個照我們的市值大概8.1兆大概佔比大概6.1現在73.6兆的情況底下的佔比剩下0.67那國安基金已經"},{"start":5834.82,"end":5855.278,"text":"預計已經要進去了,雖然使用率沒有那麼高但是金額多一點,那總會大家比較安心嘛主要是安定安心嘛,對不對不一定要用到足嘛請問一下,你這五千億用了多少了?委員報告,五千億裡面當然有兩千億我知道,這我都知道,兩千三百我都知道你就不用講那個我們知道的common sense好不好這現在用了多少?"},{"start":5856.244,"end":5868.05,"text":"現在用的多 這次啊這個部分執行秘書來做我不會知道他會不會給你報告部長完全沒有掌握都給他處理在國安基金裡面我只是其中的一個委員那你總是要知道你要掌握狀況吧"},{"start":5873.292,"end":5886.969,"text":"對啊 他執行秘書也是 你是他的上司不是嗎那我上次還問你說呢是不是要增加 你也是說要需要進行合理的評估嘛 對不對那請問一下評估了沒有"},{"start":5887.903,"end":5915.081,"text":"我們已經有做評估了交代了沒有那結果呢評估呢評估的結果那我們覺得在適當的時機也許會做處理吧適當的時機也許會再做調整所以現在這麼嚴重還不是適當的時機今天股市已經回彈了今天是今天剛剛楊總才跟你講說還不確定不穩定嘛他可以一下子半夜跟你講說延久10天搞不好後天跟你講搞不好又變縮短成40天當然變動性蠻大的"},{"start":5916.662,"end":5923.086,"text":"川普就像天氣一樣變來變去 難以琢磨比女人還女人所以這種情況你難以預測川普嘛天氣或許還可以預測"},{"start":5933.672,"end":5960.52,"text":"好 那我現在問你嘛你不變硬萬變嘛好 我現在問啊基本上你怕非理性的崩盤的情況底下非理性的崩盤的情況底下你國安精心是適時的去做多好 那彭主委彭主委你的限空令基本上是防阻過度的放空嘛那一個限空的情況底下一個要做多的情況底下你們彼此有沒有一個協調機制請問你其實我們在"},{"start":5962.14,"end":5987.267,"text":"資本市場的管理部分涉及到這種重大事件的時候我們當然跟各個部會之間都保持密切的溝通但是我們有各自各個的職場密切的溝通的情況底下有去掌握同步要如何讓它恢復到理性跟基本面才是目標嘛不是嗎當然回復到正常的市場機制是我們在金融市場監理一個最重要的目標就是這個最重要嘛所以說你才會有一個限空它才會有國安基金進場嘛那兩邊的協調你們是怎麼協調法"},{"start":5990.068,"end":6015.546,"text":"這當然跟委員報告其實這部分因為其實有各種狀況不同都不同因為每次的情形看起來非常類似但是都很大的不同那像今天已經漲到這種情況底下那我就問你一件事嘛原來的先空令是不是到明天結束我們的暫行措施我們上次宣布到五天那我就請教你啊下禮拜還會不會有我們會在星期六的下午宣布會不會在下午幾點"},{"start":6016.887,"end":6035.009,"text":"因為下午我們要先看國際的這個狀況因為我們有那個時間的落差在整個國際的盤勢的情況底下來做一個下午的宣布來看看下個禮拜是不是要延長這個限空令是的 我們現在是這樣預計的預計嘛 目前這樣預計好 那個兩位稍微那個主委你先請回謝謝"},{"start":6036.731,"end":6047.479,"text":"我先請教一下總裁還有包括其他的部會總裁我試著去看川普的這一種連環計是不是這樣子你站在總體經濟來說第一個先關稅戰逼著你來我這邊設廠減少貿易之間的一個逆差"},{"start":6055.305,"end":6077.987,"text":"第二個呢 他一來設廠的話 製造業就可以復興復興之後呢 而且同時打擊中國息產地 創造他的就業機會第三呢 採取美元貶值的方式 來打擊外匯的操縱國然後第四個呢 賺取外匯 然後減少國債把短債變成長債 有沒有可能是這種套路啊"},{"start":6080.19,"end":6106.167,"text":"我想Step 1就是說關稅戰這個我覺得是邏輯上是可以的是對的那製造業復興這個也是對的不過美國要製造業除非就是說是重點式的復興它不可能就是全面復興因為人力什麼的都不大一樣只要在川普的重要選區復興就可以但美元貶值拼出口這個也不見得會因為"},{"start":6109.309,"end":6134.507,"text":"匯率也不是說他要讓他貶值就貶值不是喔對這麼有把握對這個除非就是說就像那個什麼你現在談到匯率我們就來聊一下嘛你知道川普他基本上有一個Mirren的經濟顧問嘛那Mirren他裡頭有提到說那個美元基本上是過度被高估所以說25%"},{"start":6136.688,"end":6153.968,"text":"沒有人的建議就是說應該走弱勢美元應該把它貶值20%的這種說法讓整個製造業回流那這個方式如果說按照目前它在公開的檔案當中從關稅戰然後一直到美元的這種貶值有一個路徑圖喔"},{"start":6155.728,"end":6171.509,"text":"可是呢總裁你記不記得我們上一次討論上個會期討論的時候我就請教你說川普會走強勢美元還是走弱勢美元可是顯然這個經濟顧問的看法跟你絕然不同嘛不是嗎沒有沒有我跟委員報告"},{"start":6173.371,"end":6201.241,"text":"事實上前沒有多久他的財政部長才說他們還是希望強勢美元可是他們財政部長是邊緣啊我跟你報告事實上呢匯率呢是財政部在主掌的所以說你認為他不會走弱勢美元這個當然財政部長說是強勢美元但是呢我想委員也知道就是說川普的個性就是說我說了算我說了算那沒有辦法部長說的沒有算"},{"start":6203.102,"end":6218.555,"text":"但是呢 一貫以來啊 我跟委員報告就是說一貫以來 美國的財政部呢 都是希望美元強勢強勢美元 所以說就你跟財政部的美國財政部溝通是走強勢美元所以這個貶值的路線不會這樣走就是了"},{"start":6225.412,"end":6237.464,"text":"所以我跟委員報告前財政部長Alan他都一直認為匯率呢匯率講說是弱勢美元或是強勢美元他都認為就是說好像這個也不對他認為就是說匯率是由市場來決定總裁"},{"start":6247.314,"end":6267.772,"text":"說是這樣說啦華盛頓廣場協議你也非常清楚啦他用美國的實力來影響你其他的貿易對象逼著貿易對象來生死嘛他現在沒有逼著你貿易對象生死第一個就把你關稅提高嘛第二個他如果再加上把你貶值的話你看台灣以出口貿易為導向的這個經濟體如何去面對我現在擔心的地方就是在這邊啦"},{"start":6269.394,"end":6285.951,"text":"委員擔心的是很正常很合理邏輯上是對的啦不過呢我想呢我們會密切注意這件事總裁你稍作休息我請一下部長因為賴清德總統已經有去這個彭博社新聞社裡頭書第一個他就強調說要一定要洗產地"},{"start":6290.339,"end":6312.388,"text":"你到底有沒有什麼方式好洗產地越南的方式洗產地的方式怎麼洗產地呢他就在科徵中國的這個稅金高達25%有沒有可能比照辦理 部長洗產地的部分其實我們的關務署跟經濟部都是強一直非常密切的合作我們剛才報告過就是海關裡面有三道的防線除了防線之外有沒有可能用稅的這個工具啦有沒有可能我是問你這個問題嘛"},{"start":6313.611,"end":6336.412,"text":"洗產地的目的最主要就是說他從中國進口以後他就改了一個就是Made in Taiwan的一個標籤然後再出去這個就是一個洗產地這個部分我們要杜絕一定會杜絕而且也強力的查核那三道防線實施以後有一定的成效那我們最近也一直在做精進的滾動的精進讓他可以更嚴厲更更嚴密是好謝謝經濟部的次長我們次長"},{"start":6338.8,"end":6357.959,"text":"那個何次長何次你現在的狀況好像重但是放在經濟部第一個的部分是說你們要採買採買的部分我算一算這個石油的部分採買你大概憨不啷噹有沒有可能天然氣加石油有沒有可能多100億的可能性它總共大概360億左右"},{"start":6359.71,"end":6387.7,"text":"是就是短約跟長約大概有三是短約大概三到四成的左右有沒有可能訂單移轉有沒有可能是當然這是一個可能性盡量來達到擴大那加強投資的部分呢就減少貿易逆差現在也在進行是好這兩個你們現在負責這兩個對我們那個杜次長杜次我們現階段跟美國的這個貿易是美國是屬於順差的部分農產品是28億"},{"start":6389.201,"end":6418.294,"text":"可是我們主要的部分是黃豆跟玉米的部分還有一些空間主要是跟巴西買嘛有沒有可能轉向美國其實美國這邊因為就我們的業者來講第一個品質當然要穩定第二個價格要合理那以美國來看這最近的黃豆玉米價格報價其實都非常可接受所以說有可能轉單我們業者確實是有然後貿易逆差不為了逆差也為了他們自己就是整個糧食的來源供應穩定跟品質好然後但是現在我們就是在貿易的問題嘛"},{"start":6418.974,"end":6433.756,"text":"不是一個供應的問題嘛最後請教一下總裁總裁你上一次的報告當中有特別提到說要購買農產品要增加投資嘛還有增加採買嘛對不對這三項嘛還有還買武器嘛對不對可是買武器的部分有算在裡頭嗎"},{"start":6435.618,"end":6448.645,"text":"據我們了解好像武器有一部分是它有放在裡面但是我知道好像大部分沒有即便我們現在2.5%的GDP淺搭3%的話約內可以採買的這個武器大概剩下44億的空間所以說你這樣的說法這44億當中真的能夠達到貿易平衡的效果到底有多少你們評估一下只有一部分嘛"},{"start":6466.274,"end":6492.262,"text":"我們記得我們在了解的稍微了解一下要不然我們寫得夯不啷噹好像國人很有信心但是事實上沒有那麼多的情況底下相關的單位就要增加其他的方式來平衡貿易的可能性好不好好謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝郭國文的質詢下一位請賴會員請林思敏委員質詢對不起沒有看到"},{"start":6499.639,"end":6508.932,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席我先請我們經濟部核次長還有農業部杜次長農業部杜次長好 梁院次長"},{"start":6518.159,"end":6525.843,"text":"我想今天針對川普的對等關稅我們看到一個好消息就是說他暫停90天這樣對等的關稅在這90天內都降至10%讓大家暫時鬆一口氣"},{"start":6533.507,"end":6544.611,"text":"那我相信政府有更多的時間籌碼跟空間可以跟美國展開這個貿易的關稅的對等的談判所以我今天就針對未來經貿的談判我國會面對的問題來就教兩位"},{"start":6550.782,"end":6573.257,"text":"那我們看到在對等關稅的實施後美國貿易代表署在4月8號接著就宣布10項不公平的貿易行為雖然我們台灣沒有名列其中但是報告中還是有點名台灣對美規車設置技術性的貿易障礙以及我們台灣要求落實豬肉"},{"start":6574.538,"end":6598.084,"text":"產品的原產地標示以及對某些美牛的產品實施反鎖檢查的做法他認為這是貿易的一個障礙會影響關稅的一個政策美國表示反對認為這是傷害性的貿易行為所以美國公布這些不公平的貿易行為是否就是在暗示如果我們要跟美國來談判對等關稅"},{"start":6600.725,"end":6614.837,"text":"這些就是必須要讓我們讓步的一個地方這是第一個問題第二個對於我們美豬產地的標示對美牛的進口限制美國是要求我們要全面的解禁美國的牛肉產品"},{"start":6615.798,"end":6632.331,"text":"並且與基改食品可進入校園且要跟非基改食品是列為同一個分類號列美國的這相關的一個政策是否會影響我們政府為了談判成功"},{"start":6633.092,"end":6650.283,"text":"而修改我們或者放寬我們現行相關的限制或修改相關的規定此外對於美規汽車的關稅部分是否也會往下調整那麼依序先請經濟部何市長來回答"},{"start":6651.667,"end":6667.716,"text":"好那謝謝委員的提問那有關美規汽車的這個一些限制的這個部分我想這個是交通部的這個權責那我想我們也會注意到這樣的一個現象那因為談判我們"},{"start":6669.502,"end":6682.13,"text":"國家會有一個整體的策略所以我們也不在這裡講得太細畢竟我們還是要留一些談判的籌碼在手上市長這問題我聽起來你沒辦法回答這個權責就是說對美國汽車數量的限制這個部分我想"},{"start":6692.916,"end":6718.144,"text":"不是 我說要放關 關稅的問題是你的選擇關稅的部分 當然我們是希望就是說盡量能夠足年是不是足年能夠來調降其實市長我的問題是說因為美國現在就是要求我們這幾個產品項目他要求我們關稅他進口進來我們要降低"},{"start":6719.244,"end":6745.58,"text":"所以我們的因應措施是什麼我要問你這個問題有沒有可能就是他要求什麼我們就接受什麼他跟你講說你的汽車關稅要降低啊要放寬美規車進口到台灣的一個關稅報告委員其實委員提示的這個部分其實我們都會納入到談判的內容那容我稍微做一些保留因為這個部分確實不能再"},{"start":6746.801,"end":6764.185,"text":"講太多把我們的底線掀出來我的呼籲跟要求是希望政府的談判代表不能讓美國欲取欲求我們相關的我們國家的關稅政策我們還是要我們還是堅守國內的產業最大的利益為主再請杜市長對於我剛才講的美豬美牛的一個進口我們相關的限制規定會不會做一個放寬"},{"start":6776.627,"end":6799.43,"text":"好,謝謝委員關心,因為其實在農產品這塊,特別是在豬肉這塊,其實要求來自原產地的國家,要不要說,這是對每個國家都一樣,不是只針對美國,那其實這個目的是,第一個當然是我們台灣的豬肉,或是美國來的豬肉,加拿大的豬肉,或者是西班牙的豬肉,讓消費者可以看到他吃到的豬肉是哪個國家,這只是讓消費者知道,沒有..."},{"start":6800.671,"end":6810.255,"text":"所以你是說政府是否可能會為了談判成功未來會放寬相關的限制或修改規定我們的立場你要講清楚說明不會啦我希望不會啦我們要保護我們的個人的健康嘛"},{"start":6819.179,"end":6829.988,"text":"甚至我剛提到的就是基改食品可進入校園這個部分跟非基改食品他們要求必須列為同一批貨號的列序"},{"start":6833.451,"end":6848.669,"text":"所以這個規定我們不可能去做修改吧你要保護我們學童的安全啊這應該是衛福部跟教育部他們在商量不是 為了在談判這個都跟你們的業務相關嘛你在談判上面如果美國做這方面的要求我們應該要去堅守"},{"start":6850.491,"end":6857.595,"text":"我想所有的談判都是以臺當然是以保護臺灣農業為最優先接下來我再請經濟部次長川普他8號在共和黨的全國委員會活動表示若是台積電如果不在美國設廠就要開徵關稅100%所以除了川普這個最新的談話"},{"start":6878.327,"end":6897.666,"text":"經濟部是否知悉川普是希望台積電還要再投資一千億在美國是否有要求台積電必須在未來三年內要全數移轉關鍵技術到美國經濟部你是否有完全確實的掌握台積電到美國的投資條件內容"},{"start":6899.838,"end":6922.168,"text":"根本報告就是台積電的這個全球的佈局應該由台積電這邊公司來跟對外來做宣佈我們政府這邊就針對他對外投資所以他的投資內容你現在一無所惜一無所惜他已經在公開的場合已經有宣佈他未來他宣佈他要去投資嘛但是未來的投資的內容難道我們經濟部不用去把關嗎"},{"start":6926.109,"end":6951.286,"text":"他說要全部過去你就全部讓他過去啊跟我們報告我們有個投資省力的機制我們有個投資省力的機制當然我們會站在就是國家的產業最大利益的我想我的看法是說你們應該要做砂盤推演啦因為遇到這種關稅的問題我們即便台積電宣示說要過去美國投資要投資一千億川普還不滿意他說你要再加碼投資一千億"},{"start":6952.367,"end":6976.682,"text":"就欲取欲求啊所以政府面對這種問題當關稅大概今天有90天的一個暫停期所以我的意思是說你們是不是好好要去盤點如果萬一萬一90天過後川普還是堅持我們台灣要被這麼高的一個對等關稅那我們台積電是否你們有考量有沙盤推演"},{"start":6978.018,"end":6990.236,"text":"可能在放行的時候他的一個未來的投審會要嚴格的把關啊而不是說他喊多少我們就給多少啊這個是不是你們應該要做沙盤推演"},{"start":6991.663,"end":6996.068,"text":"所以我是呼籲說政治經濟部對於台積電要不要放行這一個部分我們要審慎的考量來對應美國的高關稅的一個政策"},{"start":7009.181,"end":7015.267,"text":"另外我想針對這個880億的紓困預算農業部是180億經濟部是700億賴總統在4月6號也跟國人說政府已經完成盤點對美國採購農工石油跟天然氣等採購計畫也已經派員前往美國談判"},{"start":7031.303,"end":7058.728,"text":"今天我們看到報紙也寫我們林佳龍外交部的林部長他說台灣已經跟美國建立溝通管道談判機制正在與美方對接中期待很快就可以展開實質內容的談判我想請教兩位次長談判代表是否對於美國要求我們增加採購跟擴大投資照單全收"},{"start":7061.482,"end":7088.475,"text":"會這樣嗎跟委員報告我聽起來好像我們現在看到的氛圍就是普遍認為好像我們政府對於美國的他的所有的他的一個提議我們全部照單全收跟委員報告其實我們大概有盤點一些可以對美擴大採購的一個項目那我們這些資訊也都提供給相關的這個談判的部門來對美國在談判的過程裡面所以政府有設下底線"},{"start":7090.236,"end":7104.776,"text":"有設下底線啦不可能說他講什麼我們就全部招攬全收啊當然這個我們在談判過程一定會有這樣的一個考量是所以你們現在到目前為止你們有什麼樣的考量啊你們的因應措施是什麼當然就是說我們"},{"start":7106.317,"end":7126.338,"text":"要符合就是要擴大對美採購的這樣的一個就是最主要是平衡的平衡貿易逆差的這個部分那我想我們大概經濟部這邊就我們說可能油氣這個部分所以對美的採購就是如果他要求我們擴大投資或者對美的相關的採購"},{"start":7128.039,"end":7145.752,"text":"經濟部也好 農業部也好對於他要求我們去購買他的農產品這部分你們是不是有設定一定的一個底線嘛我的問題就是這麼簡單啊當然我們把最大貿易談判代表出去但是我們基本上我們要談什麼"},{"start":7147.691,"end":7166.862,"text":"我們自己要的底線在哪裡完全都完全毫無所惜不知道到目前都沒有任何的措施跟委員報告因為就如同我剛跟委員說明的其實談判一定有很多的情境各種很複雜的因素那這些情境其實也不宜在我們在這裡講得太清楚"},{"start":7167.722,"end":7188.876,"text":"那是不是可以給我們那個談判代表有更大的一些空間在為我們台灣爭取最大的利益我想進一步責無旁貸因為這一次我們有九十天的非常充裕的時間所以你們出去談判我希望能夠帶來很好的讓國人安心放心這樣的一個成果以上 謝謝謝謝林師傅委員的資訊下面請賴慧芸委員質詢"},{"start":7198.362,"end":7203.73,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請總裁還有財政部部長還有經濟部農業部次長經濟部的何次長 農業部的杜次長是 總裁 早安"},{"start":7214.345,"end":7228.383,"text":"總長你這幾天睡得怎麼樣睡眠品質好不好都還可以所以你是都是在你的掌握當中當然我們就是密切的注意那其實"},{"start":7231.267,"end":7246.808,"text":"這個所有的這個情境不管就是說昨天川普又就是加了這個90天的一個緩衝期跟75個國家一樣這個也是在你的掌控中嗎這個這個我們只會想就是說可能他會他會比較放鬆一點"},{"start":7248.09,"end":7266.652,"text":"但是他會說是三個月這個我們也沒辦法掌握所以你也認為在未來就是說在4月2號以後他講了以後這個32%那就是引起了很大的一個震撼他會再放鬆這個也是在你的一顧範圍內我是覺得因為整個他"},{"start":7267.313,"end":7283.295,"text":"因為他也事實上呢這個川普總統他也沒有想到就是說他美國他本身的那個股市呢會跌得那麼慘所以他還說他不是故意的所以很顯然他也沒有想到總裁你認為他美國的股市"},{"start":7284.156,"end":7300.029,"text":"不會跌得那麼慘,川普不會認為說他的那個他一開始的時候要實施之前,他就說不會啦,華爾街不會有問題但是呢,他實施了以後呢,整個就跌了連續好幾天我覺得啦,我覺得我的觀察,認為呢,他也緊張了"},{"start":7302.031,"end":7312.422,"text":"他很緊張他也緊張了所以他才會有這三個月的一個緩衝期可是我不覺得他很緊張如果他沒有很緊張的時候他不會做這樣的一個改變好"},{"start":7318.069,"end":7340.585,"text":"那你的台幣會升值還是會貶值這個我剛剛還是一直在講事實上匯率很難是現在就是說他要升他要貶事實上是由市場來決定的由市場來決定那你有沒有就是說那會不會就是這升值貶值的時候你會不會調整你的那個外匯存底你的工具在哪裡"},{"start":7342.206,"end":7359.359,"text":"我覺得就是說調節本身就是外存體來調節所以我們這一次的我們的報告裡面我們有講到這個四個因應措施我們因應措施的主要的目的就是要來穩定我們的匯率"},{"start":7360.14,"end":7384.231,"text":"好那我可以再請教你一下嗎如果這個外匯存底的話你覺得你會調整的是美債還是就是你的那個美股我想就是說要調整當然了我想我就很密切的注意這個情勢的發展不過我剛剛因為這三個在外匯存底裡頭哪一樣是佔了你的外匯存底最多你說哪一個"},{"start":7385.191,"end":7400.743,"text":"就是你的美債、你的美股還有你的美金我們主要的還是美債美債多所以中國拋售大量的美債這個也是一個攻防"},{"start":7402.511,"end":7417.311,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說市場都在說現在就是說有一些國家開始在跑美債不過我有一個數據跟委員報告事實上前沒多久美國10年期公債是4.9%降於5%"},{"start":7419.533,"end":7439.225,"text":"對那後來呢他就一直跌跌跌跌到多少跌到將近4%那現在呢最近我覺得說市場在宣傳就是說因為大家都在趴挖趴美債啊所以美國公債呢這個價格呢就是在下跌啊然後呢到目前到昨天呢他是4.34.3那我們如果說來把4.332跟這個他將近這個4.9幾來比較的話這個顯然還是很低啊"},{"start":7448.11,"end":7464.221,"text":"還是很低所以這個一切都還是在你的掌控我覺得到目前為止我們還是密切注意謝謝你的自信也讓我們感受到一邊一國跟中共我們的經濟其實台灣跟中國經濟上是分開的謝謝你剛才講的話今天股市應該會好一點"},{"start":7474.379,"end":7475,"text":"主席"},{"start":7505.139,"end":7532.488,"text":"聽然後解決什麼樣的一個問題是不是有啟動了這樣子的一個那個計劃包委員我們其實現在已經開始啟動這個產業的這個座談那我想院長跟總統也都分別在本週都會陸續到這個各相關的縣市這些產業聚落去跟這個這些產業界來做一些座談了解他們的一些心思"},{"start":7532.868,"end":7552.228,"text":"那你看我們對美出口的只要產品就是說我們在工業的部分鋼鐵、運輸、工具、機械、石化、塑膠這個運動器材啪啪的還有這個醫療器材一般的化學、家電這些東西我們可想而知這個狀況是會非常慘的不管就是說你是32%還是10%"},{"start":7554.71,"end":7583.758,"text":"甚至川普會改來改去現在只是有一個90天的一個喘息的一個機會那看到我們的農業更慘了這個讓我們更害怕這個蝴蝶蘭它本來就是茶葉毛豆無鍋魚剔頭刀這個鱸魚點點點這些榆木產業它其實也面臨到了一個很大的一個困難所以我在這裡那個次長那個我要問一下農業部次長就是在昨天"},{"start":7584.438,"end":7596.805,"text":"在本席的一個那個選區裡頭我們的蘭花生物產業我才知道就是說我陪了那個農業部長下去座談的時候我才知道這個我們這一個園區幾乎就是掛掉了完全沒有機會他們的訂單全部都是被退了"},{"start":7600.987,"end":7622.484,"text":"胡鐵蘭的電單全部都被退了所以問題不是說我們在金融上的補助他們多少甚至就是說我們去給他降稅還是說我們就是免收他們的一個租金其實他們面臨到的是一個長期的一個競爭力你看荷蘭到美國去設這個種苗廠結果我們台灣還是處在這一個地方那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7629.689,"end":7648.398,"text":"非常謝謝委員,委員長期關切農業,特別是在我們這個蝴蝶蘭園區這一塊,很關心、很關心,也給我們一些建議,那謝謝昨天經過這樣子的座談,其實我覺得是雙向的,第一個是我們跟業者講說我們有哪些措施,第二個是我們真的是聽到業者跟我們講說還有哪些可以繼續來做,"},{"start":7649.398,"end":7652.96,"text":"農業其實不是只有成品,不是說那種蘭花有營養從品苗、從栽培、從整個過程總培到可以到末端,18個月,這18個月訂單全部都是被抽回他們本來的訂單是排了三年了,所以我覺得跨國的蘭花國家隊"},{"start":7672.551,"end":7687.265,"text":"一定要快速促成要趕快來佈局不然從此以後台灣的蝴蝶蘭在全世界就不見了要提早佈局啦快點來處理這件事情謝謝我的稻米呢我的雞啦我的豬啦這個有沒有什麼樣的一個辦法"},{"start":7689.006,"end":7710.419,"text":"市長有沒有提出一個什麼樣的一個辦法你看美國那個農產品的零關稅對台灣的農業它是一個很壞很壞的一個影響你知道台灣人都愛吃米台灣人已經關心吃最好的米在未來如果美國米進來的時候那台灣米怎麼辦那我們台灣的"},{"start":7711.969,"end":7735.7,"text":"雞肉豬肉怎麼辦市長我相信你是在這個農業上的一個前衛你也非常清楚知道就是說台灣豬跟美國豬當然吃起來的口感是完全不一樣那如果在未來台灣的全體就是我們國人的味蕾要做了很大的一個轉變的時候那該怎麼辦有沒有比較好的一個想法"},{"start":7736.84,"end":7751.466,"text":"應該這樣說啦其實不管是怎麼樣的談判結果就農業不立場保護我們的農業絕對是優先這是第一點第二點其實美國的米跟美國的豬現在也都有台灣來但是消費者選擇就是還是喜歡台灣的米喜歡台灣的豬所以再加上這樣講"},{"start":7752.606,"end":7768.741,"text":"現在進口的豬跟雞那個數量是非常少的你要去面對問題啊你不可以講這樣的話所以將來選擇在談判上面一定有一些是我們一定要保護的那你準備好了嗎我想這就是我們的立場一定優先保護對我們怎麼樣保護呢"},{"start":7771.343,"end":7796.062,"text":"在關稅談判本來就是沒有說一定全部要變零是從零開始不是全部變零在未來的談判裡頭我們的農業一定是被犧牲的絕對是被犧牲的其實他是一併一個國家來討論啊你這個半導體顯然看起來的時候他有一個人道的一個政策的一個什麼那個保護啊現在就是農業最慘啊你沒有發現到站在這裡就是你最慘了"},{"start":7797.715,"end":7821.334,"text":"妳沒有感受到嗎也謝謝委員支持啦我想其實整個行政團隊跟談判團隊都知道台灣農業很重要會盡量來爭取所以我想說我希望就是說這個農業部在兩週內就針對了川普關稅的影響的農產品還有生產的一個聚落提供給我們更多的一個詳細的一個評估還有分析的一個"},{"start":7822.034,"end":7840.858,"text":"那個資料這個資料非常的重要就是你的出口的額度還有你的占比還有你競爭的對手國這個其實都是我們必須要快速去那個彙整的不然在這一波裡頭我覺得台灣的農業也會消失掉這個是我非常擔心的好"},{"start":7842.018,"end":7870.35,"text":"那我想就是說在這裡在針對的就是說電子零件的一個組合經濟部長我在這裡就是特別在提醒你就是說其實在這個台南裡頭我們的電子零件的組合金屬還有就是化學化學製品塑膠橡膠成品這幾個在台南佔的是一個非常非常重要的一個那個產業的一個生產的一個基地所以我們需要你們更多的一個協助更多的一個幫忙"},{"start":7872.691,"end":7895.328,"text":"在這裡還特別提到了我想就是美國經濟的一個解放日就是連這個席產地川普都注意到了你看到企鵝他也不要他連企鵝這些都沒有人住的地方他也不放過所以我們不要低估了低估了就是川普這一次他要應用各種手法"},{"start":7895.848,"end":7912.273,"text":"他要美國再一次的一個偉大這個計畫其實是都讓我們必須要那個加緊來處理各種的一個那個問題 謝謝謝謝菁姐好 謝謝賴昭偉的諮詢現在我請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢李燕秀委員諮詢 對不起然後向委員會報告等到鍾嘉斌委員諮詢我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7926.38,"end":7931.543,"text":"是我是不是可以邀請央行的楊總裁楊總裁請李委員早總裁早是一大早清晨五點多起來看到新的新聞你昨天晚上你是什麼時候知道今天早上川普調整了暫緩關稅目前調整是今天早上我才知道"},{"start":7953.294,"end":7972.348,"text":"今天早上才知道原來每天的狀況隨時都在改變這也就是長期以來我對於對美的關稅的談判 匯率的談判其實我在委員會一直不斷的提醒金管會 財政部 還有央行的地方"},{"start":7974.509,"end":7999.331,"text":"總裁今天早上川普說他早上才決定的那最主要理由暫緩關稅對等關稅的理由那CNN也提出說這個最主要背後的原因有可能是在近期美債巨幅震盪的一個結果嚇壞了財政部包括從二月初開始無論是中國大陸或日本不斷的提出要這個"},{"start":8000.492,"end":8027.57,"text":"美債到期之後要贖回這都是其中的因素之一那你認不認同你覺得這個可能性高不高也就是說CNN提出來川普暫緩關稅給予90天當然對大陸他達到125%關稅持續的延長那你覺得背後跟美債最近這段時間不斷的巨幅震盪你覺得這個理由合不合理"},{"start":8028.47,"end":8040.861,"text":"我覺得只是理由之一啦我個人判斷他不是理由之一?他不是最需要的理由?我覺得最重要的還是他的股市只有股市嗎?"},{"start":8045.665,"end":8071.212,"text":"對於全世界各國擁有美債的人如果在近期不斷的拋售美債大家都知道美債過去長期大家都認為是全世界資金的避風港它是穩定的但是在近期它變成是大怒神被很多國家到期了它可能要贖回或者是大量的拋售這個對於美國金融體系的影響非常大我想你比我都還要專業還要懂所以"},{"start":8074.093,"end":8094.761,"text":"所以我才說他會不會是主要的理由是因為CNN已經提出來了不是說CNN講的就對啦你覺得不對我只是說其中之一啊我也沒有就是說是他就是絕對就是這個啦但是有一點很重要的就是說美國呢他希望你看川普希望廢的降息"},{"start":8095.501,"end":8098.645,"text":"它希望它降息最主要的目的呢它是希望它的十年期的公債能夠降下來因為影響美國的經濟最主要的就是它長期債券的一個殖利率只是說利率下降那也要代表就是說它的債市它是穩定的對呀對呀對呀沒有錯啊沒有錯啊沒有錯啊"},{"start":8114.742,"end":8121.984,"text":"最近整個大環境的狀況包括中國大陸 包括日本他們打算要贖回其實也就是對於美國的經濟我剛剛也有引用一個數據啦我現在也提供委員參考就是說在沒有多久之前呢在還沒有這個事件之前呢美國的公債是多少"},{"start":8132.307,"end":8149.528,"text":"美國的公債十年級的公債是將近5%4.9幾後來因為就是說這些的因為就是說他大家都是避嫌嘛避嫌就會跑到股市不好避嫌之間就跑到那個債券市場所以債券市場就下跌到他的利率就下跌到4%"},{"start":8150.829,"end":8157.995,"text":"那現在呢現在跟直升利率它有一定的聯動關係總裁我直接提啦就是說從2000年開始美國的美債暴增到兩倍以上達到36.2兆美元這個數字那今年美兆對全世界到期的總共達到9.2兆其中有6.5兆美元全世界擁有美債有6.5兆在6月到期所以"},{"start":8178.713,"end":8197.279,"text":"對美國來說對於海外的債權人來說他當然是希望對他來說到期他贖回錢但對美國來說現在經濟的整整體的狀況他當然不希望馬上拿出這麼多錢來還這對他來說是一個很大的負擔嘛所以他當然希望到期的人是不是可以繼續的"},{"start":8199.504,"end":8225.223,"text":"購買他長期的債券再買個十年二十年三十年甚至是最近有傳說再買個一百年有傳出這樣的傳聞出來所以如果是這樣子的狀況的話總裁我要請問就是說你剛才也回答我們的召委就是說我們目前外匯存底總共五千七百七十五億美元那你剛提到說我們有八成是購買債券對不對"},{"start":8227.004,"end":8235.171,"text":"沒有錯那之前上個禮拜我聽到副總裁回答的是說我目前有92%92%這個數據大概他的這個數據是怎麼來的原來我們希望他的92%是錯的"},{"start":8247.642,"end":8274.922,"text":"這個數字是但是這個有一個數字在那邊我覺得他是不是我們一個奇幻的目標級就是說這個數據呢是時常因為匯率的變動的結果呢這個數據呢是會時常會變動的他是匯率變動的結果美債不過我跟委員報告我跟委員報告就是說第一個他可能是看錯了所以他講錯了第一個第二個呢我剛剛在講就是說我們的美債大概就是說我們的美債大概是八成以上"},{"start":8277.211,"end":8294.145,"text":"八成多多少那你覺得那個92%跟八成那個是一個規律變動的結果不是一個期望值上來都不是一個期望值你有沒有對於美賽我們應該持有多少期望值你覺得是一個合理的數字這個沒有所謂的期望值沒有那有沒有一個理想的數字"},{"start":8299.223,"end":8311.331,"text":"那當然啊我們會覺得就是說我們會持有這個債券持有這個債券我們都會評估的總裁你的專業評估我沒有要跟你吵架我只是問您專業的問題就是說您認為理想的美債的數字是多少你覺得是一個理想的數字我想理想的美債到目前為止我們認為我們八成以上是理想的"},{"start":8329.103,"end":8353.017,"text":"八成以上都是理想那我會不會持續增加美債的比例那所以我就說我們就要隨時要評估啊我也沒有所以我就說你說理想的水準是在哪裡八成以上都是理想的我現在跟委員報告就是說我現在目前的評估我說我八成以上是理想的理想的好那總的來講我沒有反對"},{"start":8357.159,"end":8361.524,"text":"反駁你喔 我也支持你喔那我再請問一句話就是說接下來我們會不會增加美債來當作跟美國繼續談判的籌碼之一"},{"start":8369.171,"end":8393.851,"text":"我想就是說我們只能夠這麼說如果說我們要跟他談判要說我們說美國的逆差那你必須要用公債要發行公債來融資但是我們中央銀行我們台灣是對你的公債我們是hold to maturity我們是長期持有對你的融資成本是有降低的貢獻"},{"start":8395.663,"end":8401.484,"text":"而且是你的赤字的融資呢是很穩定的 為什麼因為我們不會就說馬來拋 馬來再拋我們不會 我們hold to maturity當然 但是美國整體的經濟狀況當然也會影響我們持有美債我們到底那個變動到底結果是什麼所以它是不動的嘛那我要請問總裁一件事情就是說我們目前這兩三年今年有沒有美債到期的 有多少"},{"start":8423.85,"end":8426.352,"text":"這個我們在評估 不知道多少我待會私下我給你"},{"start":8431.847,"end":8453.042,"text":"這七年到期的有沒有數字 有沒有應該有啊應該有那這三年馬上到期總裁我都不反對因為你接下來跟美國談判他可以變成籌碼我們未來到期的或明年到期甚至後年到期的我們可以再跟美國談判說好 那我再跟你買十年 二十年 三十年這都是我們可以談的目標這個委員的這個建議是相當好的啦"},{"start":8455.043,"end":8459.764,"text":"這都是談判的工具好不好你們專業來決定但是對我們來說我就會想知道說我今年到底美債到期的數字有多少明年有多少後年有多少至少在川普這個任期裡面我們手邊握有可以有哪些工具是談判籌碼我們各部會現在都在盤整談判的籌碼這個是我現在要知道我時間剩下不多"},{"start":8483.951,"end":8485.565,"text":"我覺得委員的建議是相當好的"},{"start":8487.605,"end":8514.338,"text":"部長我沒有介意我只是想知道不是我的建議照理說你手邊應該有這些談判的工具不然你們在美台辦小組各部會到底在統整哪些東西那到底我們有沒有受到就是說其實川普都在對全世界施加壓力怎麼樣讓他經濟景氣好無論是增加關稅也好或者美債要你們多買一些也好或者債券再延長日期也好其實這都是他的籌碼我想你比我更清楚了解"},{"start":8514.778,"end":8536.303,"text":"那到底這件事情譬如說把美債延長十年二十年三十年我們從來沒有想過這件事情嗎或者美方有沒有給任何的壓力到目前為止沒有你沒有收到完全沒有沒有完全沒有想到說債券可以再跟他購買十年二十年這也是我們談判籌碼之一所以我說說委員的一個建議是很好的啦"},{"start":8536.863,"end":8565.665,"text":"好部長那我再請問你美中最後美中關稅談判的結果當然他說跟習近平是好朋友目前增加到125那也希望跟習近平談但是美中對於關稅談判的結果其實是影響全球的那你對於這件事情你的看法你覺得對台灣的影響會是什麼如果他談得好如果有共識因為台灣是中小企業我們都是全球貿易的其中的一環"},{"start":8566.565,"end":8583.355,"text":"我想關稅戰特別是在兩強的互相報復不只是說是只有兩強還有其他的包括歐盟這個對全球的經濟都不好那你覺得他們兩個邊會不會談得好有沒有機會談得好 你的預判是什麼最好是能夠談"},{"start":8595.711,"end":8603.863,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝李院長委員的質詢下一位請鍾嘉斌委員質詢鍾嘉斌委員質詢完畢 休息十分鐘"},{"start":8616.055,"end":8633.3,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府計劃所長 官員 會長 共和國大媒體 記者 女士 先生請來的比較多 有請楊總裁那麼請蔡局長協助那金管會請彭主委主席總裁請陳主席長陳主席長 陳副主席 陳副主席 莊部長莊部長 請會長關進莊委員好好委員好"},{"start":8645.66,"end":8673.968,"text":"等一下我們主席講抱歉齁 幾位首長好齁今天我的題目很清楚高關稅排中來建立自貿同盟台幣升值跟美債減息兩害取其輕來 我要分別請教幾位首長齁請問一下我們看到了美國的關稅清單也看到了中國堅決反制這裡面台灣也列明其中請問川普的關稅清單是目的還是手段總裁你認為"},{"start":8675.153,"end":8693.425,"text":"我覺得呢簡單講是目的還是手段是手段也是目的好很好來我們請今晚會主委彭主委你認為是手段還是目的我的看法跟總裁一樣好很好莊部長那您的看法呢我跟總裁和主委的意見一樣哇很好來那麼我們的那個主席長"},{"start":8696.058,"end":8712.384,"text":"我也是覺得是一樣的啦好那總裁再請你回來大家都聽你的OK來我看齁我認為啊下一頁對中國的目的是圍堵但是對其他國家是要求你跟我談判我們看得很清楚川普說你中國對我不公平貿易說要對你加徵關稅"},{"start":8714.125,"end":8734.726,"text":"但是他對其他的國家說什麼?說我對你加徵關稅,但是你要對等關稅的話,我們就可以談,是不是這樣子?順序不一樣,結果中國很生氣,馬上去提高到84,結果他好,我就給你提高到125,結果現在很多國家已經表示我要跟你零關稅了,是不是這樣?那這樣結果會變成什麼呢?"},{"start":8737.949,"end":8763.658,"text":"可是當越南提出零關稅的時候美國說不是喔你的請交跟補貼貼補這個非關稅欺騙我要注意喔所以顯然的美國對有案零關稅是要建立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟但是也要嚴防大家去跟中國要好所以要圍堵中國往下看那既然美國川普政府對中國的目的是圍堵那對其他國家要求談判的目的有哪些"},{"start":8764.881,"end":8793.134,"text":"總裁我覺得啦我覺得啦就是說我那個還是我來跟你解釋一下好來這樣審視喔川普他說兩個任務要減少赤字一個要增加就業其中赤字有一個是貿易逆差一個是財政支出這當中的貿易逆差部分中國的不公平貿易是主要原因所以他加徵關稅同時籌組了一個自由貿易同盟彼此之間零關稅因此呢在美國市場上"},{"start":8793.894,"end":8813.717,"text":"中國商品沒有競爭力了出去了讓出來的位置讓其他零關稅同盟進來遞補而且這些零關稅同盟也對美國開放了市場美國想要透過這方式解決貿易逆差但是他一方面要增加就業要投資減稅要改善他中西部的弱勢經濟選民還有一個很重要的財政支出他要減少負債"},{"start":8814.378,"end":8824.32,"text":"要怎麼解決美國公債的問題總裁你同不同意這是川普我覺得我非常佩服委員你的整個邏輯是謝謝你的佩服我繼續讓你佩服來往下看"},{"start":8826.021,"end":8845.481,"text":"我們目前呢 談判小組他有幾個任務第一個 談判關稅 這是減輕逆差貨到對美採購 也是縮減美國逆差貨到對美投資 這是改善他的就業排除非關稅障礙 這些改善逆差解決西產業問題 要防堵中國但是有沒有注意到這個小組有一個任務 寫在這裡"},{"start":8846.622,"end":8863.217,"text":"台灣大部分的外匯準備是購買美國公債也可納入作為關稅下降的有利條件總裁你認不認同這個報導我們的談判小組有這樣的一個籌碼我覺得也是也是喔很好很坦白那因為我這就不再對數了齁"},{"start":8864.218,"end":8890.788,"text":"目前呢因為你說本來說92%你的副總算是92%現在說82%所以我合理估計我們的外匯存益目前是5780億大概呢有推估4800億是由美債來持有好我們來看一下剛剛葉委員有提到欸美國面臨債務到期欸他有9兆36兆的有9兆今年要到期相當於什麼聯邦總收入的兩倍其中在6月到期的呢有6.5兆我們看一下川普怎麼做"},{"start":8892.128,"end":8896.831,"text":"他要減少負債要政府讓他瘦身找了馬斯克然後呢他有可能加稅嗎很困難現在關稅都零啦"},{"start":8900.1,"end":8924.691,"text":"要還債沒有錢還所以只剩什麼降低債息總裁你同不同意如果你是今天你是美國的財政部長你是美國的財政部長你認為減輕負債是不是這個是很重要的一個目標是啊是喔很好那往下看那請問總裁如果對美談判川普政府要求一台幣對美元升值跟B中央銀行持有部分美債減息你覺得哪一個對台灣的經濟衝擊比較大"},{"start":8927.526,"end":8952.912,"text":"我覺得這個哪一個衝擊比較大 二則一我覺得這兩個都不是很好都不是很好 我知道當然不好這才問你 兩害相權取其輕不是 我的意思就是說台幣對美元升值我先問你 哪一個對台灣影響比較大我都一直覺得台幣 兩個都不好台幣是由市場來決定的"},{"start":8955.27,"end":8975.401,"text":"好了,我就直接幫你講了,其實你兩個都不要了,但是被迫選的話,來看看你要選哪一個,我們來看一下下一頁,米倫,這是美國白宮經濟貿易顧問委員會的主席米倫,現在米倫在去年的11月他出了一個用戶指南,重組全國貿易體系,他講到什麼,講到說關稅本身不是目的是手段,"},{"start":8976.061,"end":8999.954,"text":"解答了是手段不是目的今天的報紙也寫到了根據米倫的用戶指南他說對等關稅有五種方式來協助ABCDE很清楚關稅不要報復打開市場就是解決逆差然後提高國防出資增加採購投資美國增加就業直接捐款給美國財政部這是有點戲謔的說法簡單講就是檢討美國財政部的什麼美債的負擔來往下看"},{"start":9006.018,"end":9019.865,"text":"美國的白宮經濟顧問委員會主席米倫的攝氧什麼他說接下來美國要有盟友來美債的部分手中的美債你們都有拿一部分來用超長期譬如說50到100年超低利譬如說2%來跟我買"},{"start":9022.472,"end":9050.923,"text":"你們快到期的美債換買這個好不好可是這種影響會影響到我們外匯存備裡面的流動性這樣的美債沒有流動性等於是挖個坑把它買起來第二個呢也會影響我們匯率風險的管理所以米倫不是不知道所以他提出一個方案快速換回美元現金的官方渠道他說如果你有一千億兩千億的美債換成了一百年五十年那你短期效率怎麼辦我讓你短期回購機制report"},{"start":9051.806,"end":9074.903,"text":"或者他說用一個類似SWAP SPOT的方式去互換協議總裁你認為這樣的米倫的建議有沒有可能當你要考慮被要求要買超長期低利的美債的時候你覺得這兩個有沒有幫助我們各種這樣我覺得米倫的這個建議是不合乎市場的運作"},{"start":9075.848,"end":9104.38,"text":"而且我覺得美國的公債它的殖利率是它美國金融市場的一個穩定的力量這個不是在金融上買的喔這個是恰特定客戶這是恰特定客戶對嘛所以也就是說如果說是這樣子的話你不要就是說是特定客戶就其他一般的投資人也會怕"},{"start":9105.185,"end":9107.807,"text":"今天如果說這個米倫說台灣來的談判小組我們現在談一下我這個建議你採論看看因為這隱含有什麼優勢當這兩個機制放進去的時候他形同是美國跟這些國家形成了一個沒有包括中國的準金融同盟啊"},{"start":9124.336,"end":9136.664,"text":"大家把美元的儲備跟美國綁在一起我跟委員報告我跟委員報告美國如果說就我的猜想我先來觀察美國是第一個他才會就是說就這個關稅的問題來解決這個問題"},{"start":9140.786,"end":9154.955,"text":"那講到這個的時候呢 我還是覺得顏值過早 都是顏值過早連講都不要講 顏值過早 我同意顏值過早因為現在還沒有到亮底牌的時候 我也不是亂講我們就不要講了 因為顏值過早就不要講了因為顏值還是亮底牌 但是我們來看一下剛剛有個人問你啊 合理的外匯儲備是多少同樣的 前副總裁提到說 總裁說到什麼"},{"start":9165.362,"end":9190.813,"text":"他說大概維持四千到四千五百美元這樣就很安全了你同意嗎?不你不同意?沒關係我知道你不同意就好總裁不見得意料一致往下看但是人家有當過總裁的人米倫方案的試算假如說台灣我們的外匯儲備是這麼多我們手上假設有四千八百億的美債其中我到期之後我拿一千億他說你有四千億就可以很安全了"},{"start":9191.974,"end":9206.652,"text":"到期之後我拿1000億來購買一個超低利的美債長期的結果呢美債利率現在4%假設協議的利率是2%結果我們在這50年當中或100年當中我們每年會損失這麼多有沒有很嚴重"},{"start":9208.328,"end":9215.035,"text":"我覺得很嚴重我想這個都是假設問題所以我就說這個假設的問題的時候呢很難回答假如說我們接受了這個提議我們的600億的利損小於目前現在的特別預算的880億"},{"start":9228.227,"end":9253.116,"text":"我們了解如果台灣可以換得美國相互零關稅我們有很多的好處也可以避免很多的損失我們880億要用來對付這個因為出口沒有辦法出口高關稅的報復之後我們要來紓困的跟我們剛剛談一個好的條件我們只是少損失了只是損失了600億的利損而且還是帳面上的好我們來看一下下一個所以我們來看一下"},{"start":9254.056,"end":9278.822,"text":"超長期低利的美債在米倫的方案當中如果現在以美國來講30年的國債他只要掉1%他的帳面30年的帳面就進賺20%對台灣來講當我跟美國談的那個交易我有短期的美元的流動性需求的時候他給我一個附帶美國央行免費的買權保證避開短期的利率風險你認為如果是這樣的交易台美有沒有雙贏"},{"start":9280.001,"end":9290.671,"text":"我跟委員報告我總覺得米倫的這種推論是不確實際的第二點如果說這個是真正實施的時候我個人判斷美國先發生金融危機然後造成整個全球的金融危機我了解我總裁的判斷"},{"start":9305.343,"end":9328.018,"text":"很可惜的自從剛剛那個之後就沒有得到你的肯定了後面你都否定最後我一個結論來請央行分別就台幣兌美元升值以及中央銀行持有部分美債降息分別提出經濟衝擊影響一個月內提出說明報告可以嗎可以好謝謝好謝謝眾教兵委員的質詢我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":9951.297,"end":9955.401,"text":"好 這位報告為我們繼續開會請大家幫忙維持會場的次序如果需要講話 請到室外講話我們在裡面開會好 下一位請李坤崇委員質詢 請"},{"start":9979.185,"end":9981.628,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這一個央行 央總裁央總裁請"},{"start":10001.355,"end":10028.351,"text":"李委員早部長好 辛苦了我還記得我們在3月27號的時候還有針對所謂的川普政府對等關稅策略與我國被列入骯髒15國名單有來做一個專案報告結果發現不是骯髒15國一公佈的時候發現全世界都有不過我看了一下當時候央行的報告"},{"start":10030.352,"end":10052.298,"text":"其實你們那時候說到說台灣跟美國的關稅的差距啦這個如果按照這一個貿易加權平均的關稅來計算的話台灣是1.7%美國是2.2%其實台灣還低於美國0.5個百分點那如果按照簡單平均的關稅來算一算台灣呢是6.5那高於美國的這個3.2%多了3.3%"},{"start":10056.939,"end":10080.586,"text":"就是說從當時候三月底的這一個報告來看的話總裁有想到說最後川普的算法是這樣子的嗎沒有因為我認為我當時我們的推論是說第一個我對等你講對等關稅因為對等我們加權平均都比你低當然雖然就是說簡單平均我們比他高沒有錯而且主要的就是來農產品"},{"start":10082.306,"end":10106.015,"text":"但是也就是3.3而已這是第一點第二點我們也認為就是說事實上台灣最近幾年對你的粗糙這些的產品都是你最需要的而且對你很有貢獻的對你的經濟發展很有貢獻所以那時候你是說其實是產業的互補對 是互補不是不公平的貿易我們的這些產品包括SERVER這些AI SERVER這些對它的生產力的提升"},{"start":10110.462,"end":10129.743,"text":"還有就是對他國防安全航太領域這些都有貢獻的所以我們才會覺得就是說應該不至於對我們台灣的這個對等關稅會扣那麼高所以那時候一個最壞的這個預想的一個策略會被課到多少那時候"},{"start":10130.023,"end":10146.495,"text":"那時候他也有提到基本是10%那時候頂多我們也是想大概是10%是10%那你現在就是說他是用那個公式是非常不合理的就是說用第一個你對他的逆差第二個除上你對他的一個出口所以這個方案是你們從來沒有想過的沒有想到的"},{"start":10155.362,"end":10180.478,"text":"那現在又從32%又降到10%了又回到這個基礎關稅來了那總裁想說這中間的轉折是怎麼樣這美國自己也受不了了嗎我也覺得是這樣子因為剛剛我也在講就是說第一個他也沒有想到就是說他的這個對等關稅一公佈了之後呢事實上最先反映的是他本國的"},{"start":10181.198,"end":10195.271,"text":"他的股市整個股市你看跌的那麼多那其他的國家的股市呢也就隨著多跌所以呢他這而且連續的他如果說不做這樣的一個踩煞車的時候呢就是說有這三個月的一個緩衝期的話那這樣的話呢股市下去的話是會崩盤的所以總裁認為說川普的轉折是跟自己國內的這一個股市"},{"start":10207.842,"end":10227.812,"text":"還有剛剛也有委員談到就是說他的公債的利率可以這樣彈升上來他也會有一點怕為什麼呢美國財政部特別是美國財政部他都希望他的長期的公債的殖利率能夠下來那沒有想到就是說他下來到3.9幾的時候最近又爬到4.33所以他也緊張了"},{"start":10231.334,"end":10233.637,"text":"所以我是覺得4.33對美國財政部的財政負擔是蠻大的所以我覺得這就是一個轉折點無論如何也爭取到三個月的時間了那三個月的時間總裁有什麼樣的建議嗎"},{"start":10246.271,"end":10256.78,"text":"所以我總覺得我剛剛也是在講就是說三個月的時間當然大家就整個市場就說鬆了一口氣鬆了一口氣你看看美國的股市都是每個都上漲"},{"start":10263.386,"end":10279.06,"text":"包含台股也都上漲了他的reaction就是利多嘛包括我相信亞洲的大概也是台股前面也漲了不過呢我剛剛也在講就是說事實上呢因為三個月只是這個時間而已三個月時間如果說大家要來談判的話三個月是足夠長"},{"start":10282.603,"end":10306.742,"text":"可以讓他美國跟這些的國家來談就台灣來講總裁怎麼建議也是很好啊但是呢有什麼優先來做但是問題就是說這個三個月也是很長的三個月很長的話整個的金融市場還是因為他的uncertainty他的不確定性還是依然存在因為不曉得他的 outcome 是什麼"},{"start":10308.123,"end":10327.659,"text":"所以也就是說在這段期間股市還有包括其他匯市、債市也都是一樣的它還是會上上下下上上下下而且波動度也應該從上一次的波動非常大的之後它可能會減少波動但是它的波動度還是會大的"},{"start":10329.54,"end":10342.115,"text":"好 那我請教一下齁那這樣子對於台灣的經濟的成長率會不會有影響本來預估是大概是3.14嘛那現在就是說會受到影響有可能最差會到1.4%那好一點的話2.6%那總裁這邊的想法咧"},{"start":10345.438,"end":10359.743,"text":"我覺得所以也就是說在這一次的評估裡面我們就沒有把我們的評估把它揭露出來為什麼因為我們總覺得這是一個uncertainty這是一個非常但卻總是有影響"},{"start":10360.303,"end":10362.967,"text":"所以我們才扣的這些投資因因為到目前為止IMF跟那個BIS還有就是ADB這些OECD都還沒有來估測說對整個全球經濟的影響是怎麼樣對個別國家的影響是怎麼樣到目前他們還沒有"},{"start":10380.007,"end":10405.285,"text":"但是呢投資銀行他就有一些的評估所以我們就引用了這個評估但是呢我們有一個但書我們說這都是參考參考因為到目前為止呢整個的情勢都還沒有非常的明朗所以我們現在做這樣的一個評估的時候有些時候呢會嚇到自己那如果就是說最後如果是10%的關稅好了那總裁認為說寶山有可能嗎"},{"start":10406.569,"end":10431.797,"text":"這個我們必須要再做評估我也沒辦法說在這裡就馬上跟委員說就可以保持這個3%的經濟成長力到目前為止我覺得我們必須要總裁認為不確定性太高了對對對那請教一下這個關稅對等關稅它裡面除了貿易逆差之外它有提到說這個所謂的匯率的操縱"},{"start":10434.178,"end":10451.766,"text":"匯率的操縱我跟委員報告一下匯率的操縱這個我看指標上面其實是有達到他的這一個這個就是說匯率的這個問題基本上他當然他有說這個可能會涉及到他的逆差跟匯率有一些的關聯對啊有出超嘛"},{"start":10452.646,"end":10476.258,"text":"但是我認為事實上匯率的這個部分是美國財政部的主權所以我上一次的報告裡面我也提到就是說美國財政部在4月是因為那時候一般來講他都會在4月中會提出他的匯率報告那他的匯率報告他就會提出他的看法"},{"start":10477.699,"end":10495.812,"text":"他的看法所以呢我現在呢要跟委員報告的就是說事實上呢關稅關稅的這個議題呢是美國政府美國的總統有這個緊急的緊急的那個發布命令的那個權限但是呢財政部的這個會議報告他的會議報告我跟委員報告他的會議報告是國會通過的"},{"start":10500.715,"end":10504.539,"text":"它的匯率報告是國會通過的它是1988年綜合貿易及競爭力法案還有2015年貿易變節化及貿易執行法案這個都是國會通過的"},{"start":10515.629,"end":10538.391,"text":"那它國會通過的它有一定的標準總裁我是說如果按照這一個美國財政部的標準來講的話其實我們有兩個指標包含這一個對美國貿易的粗糙經常這樣的順差其實都有達到那我是說這方面的話會不會被美國我們匯率沒有啊我們匯率我們還是賣啊我們還是在賣啊它的第三個標準是說你要單邊的買"},{"start":10540.453,"end":10561.194,"text":"我們沒有啊我們反而是在賣啊所以總裁認為說不會因為這樣子被美國如果說根據美國國會所通過的這個法案的三個標準按照道理我們是不會列在裡面的所以總裁認為說不會就對了我們是覺得是不會的但是呢現在就是說態度他"},{"start":10562.095,"end":10584.598,"text":"現在就是說財政部長的態度還有就川普總統的態度因為這個匯率報告畢竟還是要通過川普總統的看過看起來美國財政部長是對這個關係是踩煞車的啦我想就是說因為這個標準是國會通過的所以國會通過的話你不能就是說是"},{"start":10585.499,"end":10593.79,"text":"是對國會的這三個標準做某些的扭曲這個是跟他的關稅是不大一樣的總裁請回最後一點時間我請財政部莊部長"},{"start":10602.512,"end":10607.735,"text":"關於對等關稅 它裡面有提到台灣裡面有一些非關稅的障礙經貿談判辦公室有指出有七項非關稅的障礙 其中跟財政部有相關的要怎麼去處理"},{"start":10623.789,"end":10630.512,"text":"是,對於非關稅障礙這個部分經貿辦公室都逐一在談對,那我說跟財政部那在財政部那個部分當然也有提到所謂的違規轉運就是息產地的部分那那個部分我們海關跟我們的經濟部其實在從107年中美貿易戰以後已經建立起一個非常好的一個"},{"start":10644.137,"end":10670.589,"text":"機制來做事前的預防事中的管理及事後的嚴懲這個部分那我是說在對等關稅成立之後有沒有新的措施來做法因為你要因應新的情勢啊我們又在希望能夠再精進那海關這邊已經檢討以後就更精進的一些作為署長有要做補充的嗎那個那個關務署署長可以再說明那個精進的措施報告委員我簡短報告一下我們已經立即成立了一個強力查核小組在各關"},{"start":10671.249,"end":10686.179,"text":"都要組這個強力者查核小組違規轉運那由官務長或副官務長要親自帶隊那頻率會非常高查核的頻率會非常高另外我們會建立一個專一的風險管理系統專門針對違規轉運來做精準的一個打擊因為洗產業這個是很嚴重啦為什麼像越南這些國家"},{"start":10695.104,"end":10703.951,"text":"開始被課那麼多關稅 就是它涉及席產地啦所以這方面我要盡量避免 好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝李酷成委員質詢 下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":10713.351,"end":10725.2,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請這個央行然後央行總裁請央行金管會財政部金管會彭主委財政部專部長經濟部也有經濟部副次長好"},{"start":10729.073,"end":10751.469,"text":"各位我們政府重要的這個首長這個今天幸好早上這個訊息至少我們還要多了這個90天可以應對那我記得我們之前這個兩個禮拜前我們賴昭偉排這個案子的時候我記得剛剛那個執行局貢獻委員還說哪有被列入什麼骯髒十五國啊這個議題是假議題啊那我記得那時候那時候還訓了我們"},{"start":10753.07,"end":10768.561,"text":"招委一頓說好像排這個很不應該覺得我看到我們招委事實上有賢見之明那現在後來這個發生這個32%這件事情但是我在上禮拜看到我們在討論這個議題的時候我們各個部會的報告包括那個談判辦公室的報告事實上都有一點不痛不癢"},{"start":10770.242,"end":10788.377,"text":"他這個32%的這個關稅核戰是讓衝擊全球雖然說他現在暫緩90天現在還是先用10%但是90天後我們一樣要面對嘛所以我們現在要趕快想出辦法還有可能的這個的問題然後大家看一下當初可能被列入骯髒15國3015的時候那時候我們的預判財政部說這個會做好運營實際衝擊預算預期有限這是當初財政部上上禮拜的說法這個這個"},{"start":10796.624,"end":10825.341,"text":"朱美麗這一位是我們央行副總裁她說對等關稅影響台灣有限有限 物價穩定OK 好金管會也說短期波動難免但是我們有上次公司有應應風險的韌性結果沒想到你看一發布32%以後連跌了三到四天好幾千點那當然今天又回來但是我的意思說當初各個部會財政部 金管會 央行那時候你們是真的覺得"},{"start":10826.081,"end":10832.208,"text":"如果說因為他現在又給90天如果沒有你們現在還是覺得當初回到當初那時候是不是實質影響衝擊有限32%會有限嗎"},{"start":10834.674,"end":10859.019,"text":"總裁你所謂的三十二八就是原來他宣布現在是暫緩了不是說沒有就三十二八這個對等關稅你們當初在這之前你們預判都是影響有限我們那時候你們是不是全是預判失準我想就是說這個判斷事實上我總覺得連美國他本身第一個連川普總統他也沒有想到就是說他的這個措施下去會導致"},{"start":10860.379,"end":10869.002,"text":"他的這個措施呢就是說大家都沒有想到我的意思是說那我們這些部位首長不管是央行還有農委會幾乎全球的主管機關都沒有想到"},{"start":10880.845,"end":10908.044,"text":"但是我們也是不是太過大意因為上個禮拜為什麼民進黨委還說這個根本不重要你如果說我們都會大意的話川普在實施之前他都這麼說華爾街不會有問題但是呢隔天一實施的時候華爾街大跌而且連續跌了好幾天我的意思是要跟大家提醒啦這已經發生了幸好今天有這個時間我也跟委員報告"},{"start":10910.766,"end":10920.233,"text":"事實上連廢的他也沒有想到現在就說他這個不合理的公式大家都認為是不合理嘛應該是都認為這個不合理他這種什麼算法我們根本是因為互補事實上我們的關稅財政部也在這裡我們跟他的關稅我們是6.5他們是3.3差距才3%而已沒有事實上所謂的什麼64%對不對這個是要讓百姓知道沒錯吧財政部關稅你們在那個的"},{"start":10938.243,"end":10961.568,"text":"是的委員也就是說在上一次的專案報告裡面財政部的報告是針對有關我們跟美國的相關的一些關稅的關稅的稅率的一個比較以及還有進出口數據的分析但是我們並沒有說影響有限我們裡面就是說我們會密切的關注這個部分所以你們有注意那沒關係現在既然有90天我很高興有這個90天"},{"start":10965.589,"end":10973.494,"text":"有這個九天我們現在還是要往後看看怎麼樣幫助我們的產業實際解決問題才是重點那現在九十天後要怎麼樣來解決這個危機我們來看一下他的要求是什麼經濟部、農業部有沒有做好相關的評估還有我們現在可以做什麼我想請問財政部有什麼想法"},{"start":10987.603,"end":11003.155,"text":"比如說對於零關稅總統說零關稅吧那比如說如果真的零關稅那汽車這個部分是不是從零關稅開始談起啊跟委員報告我想總統已經提過就是我們會有組成一個所謂的談判的一個小組會由政府院長領軍"},{"start":11004.349,"end":11031.245,"text":"那在談判小組都一直在模擬如果談判官要達成他的目的嘛他有美國汽車產業嘛對 各種方案那對於就是說你們有沒有做影響評估對國內的產業的影響會有產業主管你們做了評估了沒有我們在這裡要求汽車這個降稅已經要求很久了也可以幫助國人的那降稅的部分會對產業的一個影響的部分你們做了評估了沒有是由經濟部跟經濟部來做評估所以這經濟部是喔 汽車產業的影響農業部也上來一下"},{"start":11033.807,"end":11051.042,"text":"還有農業部的部份 到時候如果零關稅 農業部的杜次長來經濟部你先回答就是說如果汽車零關稅 到時候適用WPS 全部一體適用對汽車產業的影響有沒有做過 你們可不可能這樣做包委 我們當然會為國內的汽車產業爭取最大的權利這個零關稅確實對國內的產業是有一些衝擊的"},{"start":11061.09,"end":11083.079,"text":"當然我們會在對美談判的時候爭取最大的總統說要從零關稅談起所以有可能所以我們還是希望能夠爭取最大的不可能美國不會接受汽車產業是他重要產業我想請問農業部到時候零關稅農民受到農業都受到很大衝擊你知道吧"},{"start":11084.099,"end":11098.165,"text":"那你們可以接受嗎從零開始談但不代表全部都要是零那如果美國就這樣要求你們會接受嗎我想對我們來講重要的產品一定要保護著所以你們不會接受那總統要零關稅啊如果美國就這樣要求咧"},{"start":11099.825,"end":11118.411,"text":"從靈觀會議開始談不代表全部都要變成如果美國就這樣要求咧不然30天後要給你32%90天後要給你32%我們一定會拒以利爭因為拒以利爭沒有他就是要32%不然就是0重要的農產品還是要還是有他所以你們也不支持嘛那你們都不支持在總統來央行那請問這個大家很多財經專家說這就是美債嘛你剛剛也提到了嘛"},{"start":11120.292,"end":11147.802,"text":"您覺得說你會不會同意放手讓現在幣已經升值你會不會同意放手升值或者同意讓持有美債從一年短期債變成長期債甚至無期債我跟委員報告就是說中央銀行從來沒有就是說新台幣不能升值或是說新台幣不能貶值就是說我們央行實際上沒有在控制匯率沒有我們總覺得匯率是由市場來決定它要升值就要讓它升值它要貶值的時候"},{"start":11148.302,"end":11150.644,"text":"讓新台幣的匯率波動幅度不要太大一天跌2000多點 一天升1000多點這個外資進出不會波動太大"},{"start":11169.398,"end":11188.732,"text":"還是會 就說現在現在的中央銀行的匯率呢他現在的波動弧度是比以前還大的但是你沒有回去控制啦因為這等於是非關稅的壁壘所以你那個資金的匯出進來出去呢有些時候都是很短時間都是很具有的"},{"start":11189.312,"end":11209.776,"text":"那你一定要讓這個匯率能夠穩定這樣才會好所以你不控制然後他還可以穩定喔不不不沒關係啊梁總裁我不為難您啦這個為國家好這個問題我不會往下問啦這個我不為難您我來建議我來具體建議可以做的事情啦我來跟各位具體建議啦因為我覺得我們大家共赴國難都要站在一起為國家做事啦我建議幾點請各位聽一下第一個"},{"start":11213.437,"end":11229.686,"text":"我覺得這一次的關稅衝擊跟新冠疫情一樣都是很大的衝擊甚至是一個經濟海嘯我覺得我們政府單位應該第一個就比照新冠疫情期間是成立一個指揮中心然後以前新冠疫情是每天宣布新的情形我們這次要三天開一支記者會"},{"start":11231.067,"end":11248.081,"text":"各個部會對產業衝擊每天有新的結果會怎麼樣做出一個向老百姓報告那個讓全民安心這個中央應變要嘛要三天要嘛至少一週要開一次記者會尤其現在還有九十天時間這個是第一點就是談判進度要安定民心這個很重要第二個我跟財政部建議這個行政效率部長"},{"start":11250.743,"end":11276.766,"text":"行政效率的這個提高 事實上就降低那個成本你這個關稅通關快的話 就會降低那個成本那這個對廠商就會有幫助那我知道現在關公署人手非常的不足所以你們要趕快趁這個機會跟人事總局要求增加人手因為當通關迅速的時候 行政成本降低嘛時間就是金錢嘛 你們人手不足我知道吧所以這個部分你們要趕快增加人手 增加行政效率 降低成本"},{"start":11277.406,"end":11298.923,"text":"那第三個也是財政部這個比照疫情期間就是說可以按照關務署曾經出口多少這個廠商的歷史數據那評估不管是農業部或不是農業部經濟部這邊評估這些廠商到底因為這樣如果實施32%會有多大的衝擊然後以前在疫情期間衛福部曾經做過一個方法叫做衛八補八就是說診所如果沒有達到"},{"start":11299.743,"end":11322.942,"text":"當時的百分之八十你就補達到百分之八十那我們一樣可以用這個財政手段財稅的手段如果沒有達到他的損失多少我們可以把這個額度留下來以後當他如果有賺錢可以扣抵的這個稅額用財政手段財稅的手段來幫助我們的這個產業讓他們不至於很快的倒閉那第四點因為今天勞動沒有來就是說勞動部的部分也可以按照"},{"start":11323.402,"end":11347.908,"text":"之前有多少 禁用多少勞工那多少勞工按照他的勞健保投保那個人數也許政府補助一定的預算然後讓穩定就業那比如說像疫情期間也是啊針對某一些產業補助勞工比如每個月一萬塊啊五千塊讓勞工的市場可以穩定這個不會讓民眾造成恐慌那儘管會當然這個金融市場他是比較自由的但是當如果勞工就業穩定當如果我們的這個產業"},{"start":11349.048,"end":11377.37,"text":"比較穩定用財稅手段的時候這個時候我想這個對市場的衝擊就不會那麼大就不會那麼大相對的就會造成金融市場的這個穩定那但是金融會員要注意一點我覺得我們現在政府有一些或者是說有一些人或者說我們有一些執政黨的有一些民意代表他會認為說好像中國大陸刻著比較高的關稅是比較好像有點幸災樂禍的感覺但這事實上也不是只有影響到中國大陸因為我們很多台商是在大陸"},{"start":11378.231,"end":11403.443,"text":"是有設廠的事實上他們的營業很多是算到我們的上市櫃的營業額裡頭事實上對我們很多上市櫃公司在全球都有佈局越南 泰國 中國大陸都有也是影響他們的產值對我們的金融市場也是有影響的所以政府不要因為說是大陸關稅很高然後我們就幸災樂禍"},{"start":11404.864,"end":11425.658,"text":"好像是跟我們無關 實際上我們全世界台商都會受到影響我們一定盡量來協助我們的上市貴公司這個很多產業的衝擊 現在幸好有90天我期許大家 我想我們現在是共赴國難我也不會苛責你們 但是我們提出一些建議大家趕快去做 趕快想辦法具體可行的方法 真正幫助百姓 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝陳立正委員的資訊下一位請楊瓊英委員資訊請"},{"start":11442.85,"end":11444.434,"text":"主席 本席想邀請楊航來 楊總推請"},{"start":11453.184,"end":11470.676,"text":"總裁好 川普掀起的關稅風暴影響了全球的金融市場對此您也在4月7號提出四大穩定的機制比如說建立場內外的監理機制 運用大額結匯及時通報"},{"start":11474.139,"end":11485.593,"text":"來確實掌控資金的進駐等等這四大的方案所以本席要請教剛剛本席聽到您在答詢當中你說這個匯率它市場機制要漲就讓它漲"},{"start":11488.756,"end":11514.497,"text":"這一句話是不是有但書啊如果像這麼大的一個風暴這個幾天跌了4000多點這樣子央行的作用是什麼是不是應當要維持穩定我們的匯率啊對啊當然啊當然還好我剛剛也是在強調這一點啊那你說他要漲就讓他漲啊不是不是你要說明清楚本席願意讓你說明清楚是的就是說"},{"start":11515.197,"end":11532.831,"text":"中央銀行的職責就是說穩定匯率但是在某種情況之下它要反映基本面導致新台幣是升值的時候我們不能去阻止它升值如果說它的貶值是因為金融市場的大幅的波動中央銀行也不會讓它貶的太多"},{"start":11539.116,"end":11560.415,"text":"因為我們要穩定它 也是要讓它穩定為基礎對對對 沒有錯 我的說法是跟委員的說法是一樣的一樣的 還好 還好那所以本鄉請教總裁 現在外資也持續在撤在這樣的情況之下 我們除了您宣布的這四大機制之外還有沒有其他 因為現在它突然間32%來一個10%"},{"start":11563.277,"end":11584.064,"text":"90天這個90天就是大家搶先要去談判我們掛了號也有我們的國防會主委說我們是優先的也有其他的論述所以不管怎麼樣千變萬化除了這四大機制之外你還有其他的備案"},{"start":11585.505,"end":11598.436,"text":"我想是這樣第一個就是說我們的我們有足夠的外存體來維持市場的秩序這是第一個第二個我們有足夠還有這個是次大的機制對不對那這樣的話就是說"},{"start":11600.057,"end":11607.924,"text":"因為有些時候我舉一個很簡單的例子就是說我們如果說外資一直出去假設然後我們就拋匯拋匯我們就賣美元賣美元的時候我們就收進來新台幣那收進來新台幣的時候國內的新台幣的市場它會緊縮"},{"start":11619.673,"end":11634.629,"text":"他會緊縮那這樣緊縮的時候整個金融市場還是會不穩定所以你整個金融市場還不穩定的說我們的公開市場操作我們還是可以把新台幣的資金再把它釋放出去這個是一個很簡單的例子"},{"start":11635.109,"end":11658.975,"text":"就是說中央銀行有足夠的能力來維持外匯市場中央銀行有這個足夠的能力來維持我們的本幣跟外幣的流動性好這也是人民希望要聽到的這一個足夠跟這一個準備跟這一個應對我們好好的來維持謝謝繼續本席要請教主計總署主計總署"},{"start":11665.333,"end":11665.353,"text":"來 請回"},{"start":11670.407,"end":11689.724,"text":"主席講我們在2月26號的時候我們發布了我們的經濟成長是3.14%那到現在短短的這一兩個禮拜讓我們的產業讓我們各方面大家都繃緊了神經非常的緊張所以這個數據是可能是還沒有納入現在這一兩個禮拜的千變萬化"},{"start":11696.029,"end":11717.728,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下不管是我們台幣不斷的重挫或者是新台幣股票不斷的重挫新台幣的貶值呈現資金的外流 股匯市的雙重壓力在這樣的也恐怕影響到整個企業的一個投資所以在全球貿易成長放緩"},{"start":11718.829,"end":11744.85,"text":"而且我們的地緣政治風險又升高在這樣情況之下呢 潛在的風險持續在增加因為我們是以出口導向所以主席我們現在所用的經濟預測模式那麼對於這樣的狀態您二月份所宣布的是不是必須要重新的來修正來反映出保守市場的現象請做說明"},{"start":11745.55,"end":11767.445,"text":"我們大概五月中旬的時候下旬我們會再做一個預測的一個預估然後這個部分也會到時候會請提供給大家來做一個參考就是五月份會重新再來宣布那也納入近期比如說我們的股會是波動的重大影響以及談判的預定過程那麼內容"},{"start":11768.726,"end":11794.299,"text":"等方面都把它納入在五月份的時候再宣布這樣就對了因為本席認為您的預測會直接影響到整個政府的施政方向而且會影響到你預算的編列你產業界到底談判之後會怎麼樣那這個都是不可測的所以本席就是建議我們必須要把這些因素納進來作為一個比較正確"},{"start":11795.659,"end":11808.549,"text":"貼近情境的一個宣布讓大家有所依歸那這個時間點就在五月份是 五月中下旬五月下旬的時候好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝楊春英委員資訊下一位請黃珊珊委員資訊"},{"start":11821.623,"end":11832.289,"text":"謝謝主席我請楊總裁還有稍等一下我們按慣例11點50可以發鞭湯各位如果需要現場用就可以用黃委主委金管會黃主委好 委員好兩位好我想這幾天大家不是只有三溫暖應該是說快要得心臟病從川普幾天來的動作像是第一"},{"start":11852.403,"end":11870.109,"text":"沒有預期也沒有警告就直接殺殺完之後再告訴你說你還有90天可以活現在的狀況就是我們在這90天之內有沒有什麼樣的想法還有我們到底跟他的溝通管道在哪裡央行跟金管會平常跟美國沒有任何管道嗎"},{"start":11871.418,"end":11900.041,"text":"我們我跟委員報告我們基本上就是說我們每年每年都會國際組織國際的會議我們都會跟美國財政部來答案就是我們現在就看到他對全世界沒有人信念所以不能怪你們但是我們看到賴總統投書講了台灣的立場那美國我們昨天看到下出一聲冷汗的是他的經濟顧問在美國大放厥詞說美國只有五個方法第一個"},{"start":11900.982,"end":11918.71,"text":"接受美國關稅不能報復第二個打開市場停止不公平的交易第三個要提高國防支出跟軍購第四個投資美國第五個直接捐錢給美國財政部請問這五個選項總裁你的看法呢"},{"start":11919.881,"end":11947.526,"text":"我覺得第一個就是說他說不能報復那當然就是說他現在也已經講了就是說很多國家都願意跟他去做談判反正就是這五個方法我們台灣會選哪幾個方法第一個我們已經不報復了嘛所以我們接受了第二個第三個第四個都是可以啦不過呢我總覺得就是說直接直接關錢給這個美國財政部這個我總覺得好像是不可能做不到"},{"start":11948.807,"end":11962.064,"text":"就說是好像覺得怪怪的啦那不是覺得怪怪的啦是我們現在給人家政府的只有一種人叫做我們的友邦比我們弱的我們才會做援助 國際援助大概不太可能直接給錢吧"},{"start":11963.846,"end":11989.433,"text":"中華民國預算法也很難直接給錢吧美國以前是在援助其他弱勢的國家那現在呢他就說你就去捐好像是在援助他好像我也不曉得他的意思他的答案就是給我錢其餘免談所以這五個方法我們已經沒有別的方法了來彭主委這幾天我想金管會非常累但是"},{"start":11990.353,"end":12018.489,"text":"我們針對現在的狀態金管會還有哪些可能會考慮今天找回來了明天呢後天呢報告委員那個資本市場有波動這是他的特質如果把時間拉長這個波動是是一個我們都一個資本市場目前還算可以承擔的狀態我們就會面對各式各樣的不確定性其實從過去時間拉長來講您聽到剛剛他們講的那五個方法你覺得台灣有多少談判的籌碼"},{"start":12019.85,"end":12042.468,"text":"這五個方法其實都不在金管會所能評論的範圍之內金管會對於資本市場的管理剛剛委員問我們是不是很累我們平常心因為實際上我們必須要更冷靜的去面對這些問題金融海嘯金融風暴其實都經歷過都會走過來只是要受多少代價而已"},{"start":12043.871,"end":12070.906,"text":"那既然這樣的話那就麻煩總裁了現在的問題就在於看到他剛剛講的這些東西現在他今天會有這個變動大家都說是因為美債的關係美債殖利率本來是他預期美國希望他下降現在看起來被拋售然後殖利率上升美國要付更多的錢所以美國總統嚇到了所以他停止那你覺得我們目前為止剛剛聽到說我們外匯存底五千多億裡面您說有大概八成是持有美債"},{"start":12071.906,"end":12099.174,"text":"八成持有美債如果按照這個川普的方法的話將來這個殖利率可能會一直不斷的壓下去那會不會影響央行對於這個美債資金尤其是你每年要繳酷一千八百億你會不會受到影響基本上以目前我們的評估呢到目前為止呢我們還是可以達到我們的目標你的目標所以殖利率你覺得不會大幅的下降美國川普的不是陰謀是陽謀不會實現"},{"start":12102.016,"end":12127.675,"text":"所以我剛剛也是在講就是說中央銀行會密切的注意密切的觀察但是這些錢他其實講的講白了就是關稅只是他的工具目標是消減貿易逆差那最重要的就是讓美國人更多的錢他一天可以收到20億美金的關稅這是他洋洋得意的地方所以我們必須面對這個結果他的政策大概不會變了只是方法的問題"},{"start":12128.476,"end":12135.486,"text":"所以中國開始拋售美債假如這樣的話那你會不會去市場上再把美債買過來"},{"start":12137.765,"end":12166.073,"text":"我覺得是這樣子啦你覺得台灣不應該再去接手美債不不不因為我剛剛也就是說有提供一個數據啦就是說美國的10年期的公債呢在前一陣子的時候是4.94.9多我等於是說他現在還有另外一個美國政府說我們可能接下來要發行零利息的債券你要不要買我剛剛也是在講的就是說你要不要成為他的朋友啦就這樣"},{"start":12167.894,"end":12196.028,"text":"這個就是說他這個是不通的啦不通他不通的而且呢而且呢你就會像那個像他這個關稅一開始的時候呢導致他的那個他的那個結論是我們不會去買他什麼臨時債券第二個就是他會不會發行都還是一個問題那我們也不必要那麼早就說我不會去買更沒有捐款給他們的可能性還沒有談到這件事所以不會也不會有捐款給他們的可能性吧"},{"start":12197.169,"end":12212.2,"text":"捐款所以我剛剛在講到就是說這個捐款所以我們談判籌碼就是賴總統說的嘛第一個增加投資增加軍購第三個投資美國要降低所謂的貿易障礙我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":12221.909,"end":12247.479,"text":"部長我想我們在這邊質詢過很多次喔台灣的稅不是只有關稅台灣的稅有非常多的貿易障礙尤其是像汽車的狀況就是我們有很大筆的貨物稅所以台灣人買車比別的地方貴這是長久以來的事實這點我想財政部在這裡回答委員的問題就是阿愛會增加我們的稅損那現在你已經沒有稅損這個理由可以用了那怎麼辦呢 你的籌碼是什麼"},{"start":12249.023,"end":12264.441,"text":"跟委員報告你一定會被要求降低所謂的非關稅貿易非關稅障礙類似貨物稅 類似我們國內的這些李李可可的一定會被挑戰這不用財委會來要求你刪了吧美國政府就叫你刪了"},{"start":12265.081,"end":12275.485,"text":"非關稅貿易障礙其實是在於進口的時候相關的檢核事項並不是在於其他的稅的部分你認為他們不會把貨物稅當成障礙嗎當然貨物稅的部分當然跟汽車購買者的財務負擔有關係貨物稅事實上是國內稅如果說貨物稅的話因為有貨物稅所以就沒有人要買進口車進口的車跟國產車都要課都要課的"},{"start":12291.67,"end":12298.198,"text":"而且目前貨物稅對汽車的部分像電動車都是零的貨物稅這些東西你們盤點了沒盤點的狀況接下來怎麼處理當然是在我們盤點範圍內你什麼時候盤點我上上個禮拜已經問過了你們說正在盤點中那現在已經剩下90天了"},{"start":12311.713,"end":12336.208,"text":"所以現在我們希望你們早一點把相關盤點的結果可以跟大家做個簡單的說明相關的盤點的最後我們會提交給經貿的談判小組裡面去做方案的內容重點是要消除所謂的貿易障礙絕對不會只有一個部會啦所以剛剛總裁這邊說得很清楚我們不會用犧牲台灣利益的狀況我覺得這個財政部要守住啦理解 是 謝謝"},{"start":12337.869,"end":12355.817,"text":"總裁我還有一個問題現在就是最嚴重的問題其實是美國跟中國的他不是只有貿易大戰他可能還有接下來的匯率大戰因為中國就是擺明了我跟你談你104我就84然後今天又變成125明天可能變200"},{"start":12357.037,"end":12373.894,"text":"所以接下去他們其實中國手上滿手都是美國公債他拋售之後他手上可能有非常非常多的錢然後他會繼續的控制他的匯率那同樣的我們也會受到美元的影響那匯率當然是一個影響我只要問說中國跟美國這樣的貿易調當然對台灣的影響"},{"start":12376.505,"end":12398.496,"text":"我想就是說 基本上呢 美國跟中國...你的匯率 如果你繼續控制匯率你又會被川普說你是不乖的小孩所以匯率變成是我們的籌碼之一我想中央銀行不會控制匯率中央銀行只要我們的職責就是說讓匯率的波動不要過大"},{"start":12401.637,"end":12424.643,"text":"當它該升的時候就讓它升讓它匯率該貶的時候就要讓它貶因為它的每一個階段它說你沒有控制匯率但是我們都說我們沒有控制匯率可是美國也好像所以我就說我們每年都要跟美國財政部都要溝通所以我們就是必須要跟它講台灣曾經經歷過從40塊上升到27塊"},{"start":12429.444,"end":12448.892,"text":"這段時間對台灣的影響我想時空是不大一樣的時空是不大一樣的現在就是說央行在這上面要做好把關如果要做貿易逆差的調節犧牲掉匯率這個可能也是對我們的廠商有更大的影響對 我想我們會跟美國"},{"start":12451.493,"end":12473.301,"text":"因為它除了進出口關稅之外它如果還在面對匯率大幅的升值而造成我們出口更加卷上加霜這對台灣整體的經濟都能會有很大的匯率呢 必須要反映它的基本面這個我們都知道了所以我希望匯率跟你的談判不應該同時間被犧牲好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝黃偉銘的諮詢下一位請 某銘才偉銘諮詢 請"},{"start":12487.677,"end":12515.267,"text":"主席各位委員 處理的習慣 大家好主席可我請央行楊總裁金管會彭主委以及台灣政經教育所林董事長林董事長主計總署主計長主計長陳正部長要不要來一下陳正部長也一起來一下好了這都很重要的部會"},{"start":12516.533,"end":12543.726,"text":"那我想經濟部麻煩一下大家一起來面對國難大家要團結在一起不要再搞什麼大罷免了全世界遇到這個事情大家都已經很緊張每天都可能忐忑不安總裁你這幾天睡得怎麼樣"},{"start":12544.726,"end":12554.346,"text":"我還好啊老心在哉我們密切注意情況的發展你要穩住啊有啊 穩住啊"},{"start":12556.359,"end":12578.827,"text":"總裁啊 為什麼美國的公債啊 十年期的公債 殖利率 它飆新高沒有 新高啊 我剛剛提供的一個數據就是說它前一陣子才 還沒有實施這個之前 它都到4.9那後來呢 它就慢慢的下來 下來到4% 3.998的樣子"},{"start":12582.128,"end":12609.401,"text":"但是最近呢是上升到4.332那如果說從4%上升到4.332這個很高嗎那如果說我們跟這個4.98來比較的話4.33還算低啊所以你對美元未來在川普之後的新世界因為坦白講那個上上下下那"},{"start":12610.236,"end":12633.242,"text":"我們也不曉得到底怎麼辦更何況是一般的中小企業這感覺就是說我們各部位的重要的成績單位對不對就川普很重要重不重要川普是他很重要沒有錯但是他就是現在變成我們在屋簷下不得不低頭但是也沒關係"},{"start":12636.095,"end":12645.163,"text":"順著川普走你想要平安健康才會有啊所以總裁你要跟他"},{"start":12647.13,"end":12667.922,"text":"要有一定的溝通嘛你跟他熟不熟當然不熟啦不熟那彭懷南彭總裁彭總裁以前是直接就對上的他有那個熱線不是川普就以前的總統他們的內委這個我就不曉得"},{"start":12670.922,"end":12693.126,"text":"可是你現在外匯存體你買了多少的美國公債?我就說我們會有八成以上啊多少?大概美金是多少?八成以上你覺得說用五千七百億乘上百分之八十有的四千多億美元其實四千多億美元你是有話語權的啊如果把我們逼緊了我們沒路可去的"},{"start":12698.798,"end":12724.458,"text":"老娘跟你拼了我把所有的這個公債通通考慮贖回有沒有這個可能我想這個就是說這個就是有一點情緒的一個反應情緒的對這是一個情緒的反應我總覺得中央銀行要穩定市場我們是密切的關注市場的一個發展然後做妥善的因應"},{"start":12725.86,"end":12732.868,"text":"對好我希望說在談判的時候央行可以成為談判代表的一個"},{"start":12740.578,"end":12755.373,"text":"你至少還有這些籌碼我發現好像現在這個持有美國公債最多的是哪一個國家應該是日本跟中國大陸都持有很大日本配合度很高"},{"start":12756.434,"end":12780.823,"text":"那中國大陸他現在持有的美國公債有多少這個我大概不曉得待會兒我再告訴你好了幾兆他也持的蠻多的啦所以這個世界的當然實力為王那兩邊這樣吵來吵去假設未來美元的過去傳統崇高的地位不見了"},{"start":12783.206,"end":12786.923,"text":"中國大陸他全部贖回那會造成什麼樣的情況"},{"start":12788.808,"end":12795.913,"text":"這個委員所講的是一個假設性的議題你要沙盤推演啊對啦 當然啦每件事情都應該要做一個完整的沙盤推演禮拜一啊禮拜一他說給我們課32%的關稅總裁你有料到說他突然說那這些70幾個關要先停止90天的寬鬆期再慢慢談這一點你有想到嗎"},{"start":12816.407,"end":12832.024,"text":"沒有想到啊所以我們大家要不要大罷免了趕快回歸把所有的108套劇本包括金管會包括財政部我請教那個部長莊部長"},{"start":12835.888,"end":12855.09,"text":"那未來我們關稅你的想法是怎麼樣他如果調高我們可以跟著調高嗎對等還是我們就是卑躬屈膝我們就隨便就配合他就好不是卑躬屈膝我覺得我們這個部分行政院的有經貿工作小組也有談判的團隊"},{"start":12856.392,"end":12865.184,"text":"會去跟川普那邊做協商跟川普的誰?川普政府的誰?我覺得這個部分當然我們的國安跟外交團隊會在那邊現在我們的談判代表查德木會不會去?目前那個團隊裡面會有政府院長領軍"},{"start":12872.423,"end":12884.882,"text":"財政部有沒有一起參加財政部一直在對相關有關財政部的業務的部分我們都有提供相關的資料給談判的團隊那你派誰去"},{"start":12888.106,"end":12910.801,"text":"妳派誰去目前來說還沒有要求財政部派員而且我們其實在駐美那邊駐美代表處也有我們官務的同仁在那邊經濟組裡面工作妳在美國的關係最重要我們現在最重要的關係是跟誰我們最重要的關係那現在當然面對川普這個關稅的一個措施你們有沒有找Washington DC那邊的一些Lobby的單位來互動一下"},{"start":12915.414,"end":12932.108,"text":"這個部分我相信他們都非常努力的在進行他們是誰包含我們的駐美代表處或者我們在那邊的國安團隊等等對 外交團隊你們在沙盤推演在模擬議題的時候你們要看看有沒有管道"},{"start":12934.462,"end":12950.428,"text":"據我知啦 我所知啦川普總統的周圍以前他發言的人很近周圍他很信任的人最近會來台灣啊你們應該跟他看能不能連線上起碼講講好話吧"},{"start":12952.543,"end":12974.602,"text":"是不是謝謝委員的一個支持啦所以希望說在國難當頭這個時間部長你答不答應全力來為民把關好好來爭取最好的應對方式政府當然是秉持這樣的一個立場那你最近會不會去參與大罷免的活動我從來都沒有參與大罷免的活動啊"},{"start":12980.806,"end":13000.2,"text":"楊總裁你會去參與所謂的應該是沒有沒有是很好的莊部長沒有也很好再來請金管會主委其實你是台灣的兩條金融之一"},{"start":13001.458,"end":13024.556,"text":"楊金龍、彭金龍本來是希望說能擋得住因為今年的蛇年是雙頭蛇雙頭蛇很兇的從過年初的時候有一些人在講希望說你們兩隻大龍可以壓住雙頭蛇小龍那主委這幾天你的心情怎麼樣"},{"start":13027.178,"end":13050.129,"text":"剛剛有委員問到我們就平常心因為儘管會面對這個資本市場管理波動本來就是我們每天都要面對的事情你平常心可以可是說融資斷頭戶什麼時候會萬箭齊發我想今天其實我們每天都有監控剛剛也有委員提到我們都非常關心這個問題因為影響到很多散戶投資人的一些的權益莊部長請問"},{"start":13054.13,"end":13069.726,"text":"是那這部分我們當然像我們在這個上個禮拜天我們第一個的措施就是針對這些可能未來的所謂的融資追繳沒辦法去補繳的這些投資人呢做一些一些動作嘛是目前的情況"},{"start":13070.447,"end":13089.701,"text":"如果股市跌到17000多點的時候我們現在的維持率大概是146今天應該會很大不同就是我們看到昨天跟前天大概就是增加了2%可是相對的來講今天反彈上來會不會是最終的逃民險"},{"start":13091.122,"end":13108.862,"text":"這個當然每個人我們儘管會不會對這個市場做什麼預判啦這完全投資人自己的決定所以市場要有量有量代表多空雙方自己有自己的判斷我想這是最重要的同志們美國川普給我們90天的寬限期在談那談的情況會有幾種"},{"start":13111.564,"end":13114.506,"text":"如果90天又恢復說心情不大好還是要課你32%的關稅"},{"start":13125.939,"end":13144.667,"text":"金管會怎麼辦我想這個我們對各種的情況包括這個三十二這件事情我們在這個星期一已經有有所反應了我想這部分接下來本來這個剛剛成都總裁講的本來這個東西那個uncertainty本來就一直都存在那我們想說我們過去在金管會處理這個類似這個"},{"start":13147.088,"end":13173.076,"text":"金融上面的波動特別是股市的波動我們有很多很多的相對應的方法來穩定市場上次在這邊質詢的時候其實官員的回答是答錯了我說這個關稅的問題會不會造成國內中小企業上市櫃公司重大的影響你們查查看我們這個都有錄音的你們的回答是說影響不大經過"},{"start":13176.384,"end":13183.003,"text":"這個尋答大概會有22千左右的上市櫃公司可能會有一些影響其他影響不大"},{"start":13186.205,"end":13210.772,"text":"那個回答是錯誤的沒有 那是我們那個其實當時的是我們交易所去做調查上市櫃公司針對那幾個被點名的國家我們在那邊的一些的出口跟相對的數字他們的回應說有22家對他們影響是比較明顯的可是你看看第一天你說影響不大全部都跌停在你的任內已經創了8個紀錄"},{"start":13214.279,"end":13235.621,"text":"一天跌幅幾千點?2600點創下有史以來的紀錄我想這全世界都面對到相同的問題啊所以主委你要小心啊未來再過90天以後怎麼辦?請你們做好準備我們一定是全力準備大罷免你會不會去搞大罷免當然不會不會?好謝謝那請主席講"},{"start":13240.158,"end":13263.805,"text":"那主席長我們對這中小企業的應變啊你們要做最好的準備800多億是杯水車薪不夠的啊你能不能提高一點 做準備我們先 這是第一回合啦 將來看情況來講第一回合我們的表現啊大家是很失望的啊你第二回合你要強一點啊"},{"start":13266.752,"end":13279.922,"text":"那最後問 大罷免你會不會去參與不會不會好 謝謝好 謝謝羅明財委員質詢下一位請廖先祥委員質詢好 謝謝主席麻煩邀請我們央行的這個楊總裁楊總裁請"},{"start":13300.461,"end":13305.244,"text":"中華民國有5780億的美元外匯存底那有八成是買美債的那我想確認一下剩下的兩成大概是什麼性質我們買了歐元的"},{"start":13323.971,"end":13340.999,"text":"歐元還有澳幣所以5780億原則上大概會是八成是用美金計價那其他的兩成會是就是其他的貨幣所以八成是美金其他就是兩成是一籃子的貨幣那過去我們會有八成那麼高的一個"},{"start":13342.921,"end":13348.063,"text":"選擇八成放在美金上面就代表說我們國家5780億的資產他是跟美金的價值在做聯動因為我們過去因為這個美元霸權的時代我們相信買美金放美元是相對安全的但這幾年這個"},{"start":13360.648,"end":13388.369,"text":"國際的貿易情勢有很大的一個變化包括對岸的崛起那包括近期是川普的就任造成了很多的不確定性那也造成了美元霸主的這件事情很多人在存疑未來還能夠走多久那這件事情不曉得央行這邊的判斷是怎麼樣那未來會不會去調整一下一攬子貨幣的一個美金所占我們總外匯的一個比例"},{"start":13388.949,"end":13411.961,"text":"會啦 我想委員講的也沒有錯就是說中央銀行也會密切注意事實上我們每天都是在評估這些必備的一個安全性它還有它的獲利性中央銀行的外群體我們最重要的第一個就是說它的安全性第二個它的流動性所以你講的這個沒有錯就是說我們要看情況做適當的一個調整"},{"start":13414.902,"end":13437.999,"text":"這個我們都隨時在做所以在川普這個宣布對等關稅的政策之後那我們央行的評估是會調升美金所佔的比重還是你們認為他的不確定性可能要讓我們暫時的去降低美金所佔的比重我們到目前為止還是密切的注意他的發展"},{"start":13438.419,"end":13457.552,"text":"所以目前還沒有要調整相關的比例那我想未來包括剛剛很多委員提到了可能包括對岸會用這個外匯的一個手段去做一些貨幣市場的一個戰爭那可能都會影響到美金的它的一個價值等等的有時候不一定是我們的判斷而是也要看一下其他國家"},{"start":13458.432,"end":13483.507,"text":"對於美金所做的操作那我希望說我們可能有四千多億的美金的價值那它隨便漲個一趴跌個一趴對於我們中華民國的資產來說就有一個很巨幅的一個變動那也希望我們的央行繼續秉持我們的專業來調整好我們這個外匯存底一攬子貨幣的一個比例是 沒有錯 那個委員分析得非常好我非常贊同好 謝謝董事長那我接下來請我們的經濟部 市長黃市長 請"},{"start":13488.513,"end":13502.552,"text":"市長抱歉您邊走邊講喔就是這一次的大概就是90天內是10%嘛那10%這部分到底是國內的廠商要吸收還是這個買方要吸收甚至是還沒有"},{"start":13503.693,"end":13529.081,"text":"還沒有出貨的一個東西的一個製造他可能不是一兩天能夠做成他可能需要個半年一年他才能夠出貨譬如說船舶這些東西他都會被這10%影響那可能國內的廠商跟買家跟美國的買家就會產生一些糾紛或是過去的這個契約沒有寫到那麼細那有沒有廠商會遇到這樣子困難我們的經濟部會怎麼樣的來協助我們這些廠商這就是10%的一個爭議是"},{"start":13532.042,"end":13558.51,"text":"鮑偉這個其實就是我們的廠商跟客戶之間他會有一些協議的一些行為大概就是說大家彼此怎麼樣去分攤還是說是由賣方還是買方來分攤對但是這個應該是全面性的問題每一個對美國的廠商都會遇到這樣的問題我們經濟部會不會成立了一個專責的窗口來協助這些廠商如果說協調的好當然最好協調不好我們經濟部有一個單一的窗口協助廠商去打這個貿易戰或者是法律戰"},{"start":13559.21,"end":13583.42,"text":"好 跟委員報告其實我們經濟部有成立一個單一服務窗口是包括法律問題對 我們都可以來協助所以就是如果廠商未來這10%的關稅要負擔多少沒有辦法跟買方談好的話我們經濟部未來會有律師來協助這些廠商來爭取他們應有的權利這確定喔是 我們可以來協助確定喔好 那就相關的訊息都有散播出去了嗎是好 謝謝"},{"start":13584.64,"end":13587.221,"text":"好 謝謝六委員的質詢 現在要請葉元智委員質詢主席好 麻煩先請楊總裁請"},{"start":13618.074,"end":13640.142,"text":"總裁這次要去跟美國談判除了用零關稅為基礎這是總統講的零關稅基礎去談其實很多專家也指出來說美國其實更在意的是一些非關稅的貿易障礙其中有一項跟央行有關就是人為干預匯率但我覺得這個問題其實想要問一下總裁的意見因為"},{"start":13641.562,"end":13659.199,"text":"我們如果要跟他們談當然這也涉及到台灣要加大對美國的採購那採購又涉及到匯率當然對我們來講的話台幣匯率越高採購可能就是對我們越有利可是美國又認為"},{"start":13660.953,"end":13676.781,"text":"外匯市場的人為干預是貿易障礙這部分總裁你認為應該要怎麼拿捏事實上他也沒有說外匯市場的干預是貿易障礙 不是事實上我跟委員報告事實上匯率的這個議題是美國財政部在主導的是美國財政部在主導"},{"start":13687.014,"end":13689.436,"text":"所以匯率這個問題說實在的連美國的以前的財政部長他都一直認為匯率這個價格說實在的是很難去說它哪一個匯率價格是合理的"},{"start":13705.933,"end":13733.371,"text":"因為我們諮詢的時間很有限你直接回答問題就好了因為美國認為說外匯市場人會干預是其中一個非關稅的貿易障礙他沒有講這句話在他們的報告裡面有啦他說是匯率超重他沒有說是匯率干預匯率超重是誰來決定的匯率超重是財政部在決定的"},{"start":13734.141,"end":13743.931,"text":"你說是我們美國財政部在決定的他是說台灣台灣的匯率超重沒有啊我們沒有匯率我們沒有超重啊我們沒有超重我們沒有根據美國前幾次的匯率報告裡面呢我們都是"},{"start":13750.218,"end":13759.666,"text":"都是那個觀察名單那觀察名單裡面呢我們是兩項去符合他的觀察名單的兩項第一項呢是經常帳順差第二個呢就是說我們對美國的順差那這兩項呢都跟中央銀行所以總裁你認為說美方認為的可能的"},{"start":13769.795,"end":13793.931,"text":"一個非關稅的貿易障礙其中一個外匯市場我們這邊沒有嘛我們沒有嘛所以這個部分要排除我們有調節但是我們沒有操縱我們沒有操縱有沒有調節或操縱那個是他們的認知現在主要是美國在他們把關稅提高叫大家來談嘛川普的態度也很高川普說現在大家都排隊等等去"},{"start":13794.511,"end":13819.347,"text":"去拍他馬屁啊所以現在的不是我們講什麼是他怎麼認定嘛所以假設今天要去跟他談判的時候你會去跟他講說沒有我們絕對沒有干預到外國市場沒有操縱也只有調節我剛剛就跟委員報告了嘛事實上匯率的這個議題呢是美國財政部在主導的嘛不是美國的那個商務部嘛"},{"start":13820.846,"end":13834.458,"text":"不是美國的商務部啊美國財政部川普要跟你談的話他美國的財政部我跟我有報告現在美國政府很多官員跟川普一直都不一樣他大概在四月中謝謝總裁那我接下來問一下那個經濟部次長經濟部次長有來嗎 沒有來副次長請"},{"start":13851.022,"end":13870.581,"text":"委員好次長那個因為我們現在要談判喔其中有一項是要加大對美投資嘛那當然大家都會關心台積電啦那按照川普的說法台積電是因為他自己去的啦他說因為他跟台積電講如果你不來的話我要課你100%的關稅所以他是自己去的這個次長你認同這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":13873.042,"end":13897.211,"text":"我想這個台積電有他的這個全球佈局的考量那因為他的很多的客戶因為我跟你講我會這樣問是因為昨天你們部長 郭部長講說即便是川普把關稅拉到32%對於我們的晶圓產業也不會有什麼半導體也不會有什麼影響他是這個意思那如果按照這樣的邏輯的話那川普用百分之百去跟台積電說那台積電"},{"start":13898.956,"end":13901.602,"text":"會因為這樣子跑過去投資嗎所以你認同川普這樣講的話嗎好"},{"start":13904.505,"end":13928.31,"text":"我想那個台積電有他的這個我問你認不認同啦我是問台積電怎麼樣我是問你認不認同因為我會這樣講是說現在因為我們要談判當然就要有籌碼嘛那台積電已經宣布要去投資但是經濟部投審會還是可以審查對吧是是所以我們對於這個審查會不會當作是台美談判的其中籌碼之一"},{"start":13929.704,"end":13956.585,"text":"會不會跟委員報告其實我們在這個投資談判這個任何的這個對美的談判其實包括投資包括採購這個部分都會納入到整個談判的這個內涵裡面那我想我們也都會把我問的問題很具體啦我說針對台積電投審會的審查因為也有人呼籲說要嚴格審查然後當作談判籌碼之一有可能嗎"},{"start":13957.764,"end":13983.206,"text":"當然我們在投審會在審查的時候一定會考慮到整個國內的這個產業的這個競爭力的部分還有整個產業的一個全球佈局的需要那這個美國的這個談判的部分我想我們都會綜合的考量啦OK 謝謝好 謝謝右邊的諮詢下一位羅美玲 羅美玲 羅美玲我們不在"},{"start":13984.267,"end":14012,"text":"許宇珍許宇珍許宇珍委員不在王文維王文維王文維委員不在陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇委員不在陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在鄭振淺鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在蘇清群蘇清群蘇清群委員不在張家俊張家俊張家俊委員不在黃建豪黃建豪黃建豪委員不在林楚英林楚英林楚英委員不在"},{"start":14014.161,"end":14040.133,"text":"那麼報告委員會今天登記法案的委員已經完全詢談完畢現在進行討論事項第一案第二案以及臨時提案共五案的處理預計先讀時間15分鐘先讀完畢以後即進行協商與法案無關的相關部門的行政長官可以先"},{"start":14042.254,"end":14060.02,"text":"所以就是留下財政部的長官其他人都可以離開了請議事人員宣讀然後請我們各黨團的我們的先進同仁是不是call一下你們的委員過來處理"},{"start":14064.442,"end":14084.962,"text":"納稅者權利保護法部分條文修正草案案委員賴氏寶的二十二人提案對照現行條文第六條第二項修正為前項租稅優惠之擬定於法律案送請立法院審議前應舉行公聽會並提出稅事支出評估第七條第三項刪除及利息三制"},{"start":14085.953,"end":14110.894,"text":"第七項刪除加計例席之規定第二十條第一項修正為並設置專人為納稅者權利保護官新增第三項前項納稅者權利保護官之設置應以下列方法選任但外部專業人士比例不得低於總人數二分之一依各級基金機關以任務編組方式指定二選派外部專業人士擔任"},{"start":14112.014,"end":14136.777,"text":"新增第四項,納稅者權利保護官之資格限制任期及其他應遵循事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之新增第七項,財政部每年應就納稅者權利保護官之業務績效提出績效報告並送立法院備查新增第21條之一,公務員違反本法規定者應移送監察院彈劾或糾舉"},{"start":14138.158,"end":14156.098,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人提案修正第四條第二項前項所稱維持基本生活所需之費用由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關所公布最近一年全國每人可支配所得中位數60%定資定於每年定期公告及檢討"},{"start":14158.905,"end":14177.457,"text":"委員林思明等二十人提案修正第七條第三項刪除及利息三字第七項刪除加計歷史規定第二十一條第五項刪除利息二字委員林思明等十八人提案修正第二十一條第四項納稅者不服課稅處分覆查"},{"start":14178.758,"end":14205.089,"text":"或訴願決定提出行政徵送之案件其課稅處分覆查或訴願決定自本法施行後因違法而受法院撤銷或變更自法院作成撤銷或變更裁判之日其餘七年未能確定其因納稅而者不得再行核課但與其係因納稅者之故意延至訴訟或因其他不可抗力之事有所致者不在此限"},{"start":14211.65,"end":14218.572,"text":"加執行及非加執行營業稅法部分條文修正草案案委員、宗教兵等18人提案"},{"start":14220.455,"end":14245.171,"text":"第六條之一第一項第二項通現行法條文第十三條第三項修正為前二項小規模營業人指第十一條第十二條所列各業以外之規模小小平均每月銷售額未達五十萬元之理營業人增列第四項前項小規模營業人銷售額基準因依物價水準及最低工資變動情形每四年評估一次"},{"start":14246.365,"end":14270.061,"text":"第23條小規模營業人文字修正為依第32條規定免用統一發票之小規模營業人第24條第三項小規模營業人文字修正為依第32條規定免用統一發票之小規模營業人第26條小規模營業人文字修正為依第32條規定免用統一發票之小規模營業人"},{"start":14271.582,"end":14299.177,"text":"第32條第一項小規模營業人修正為平均每月銷售額未達20萬元之小規模營業人第32條之一第一項文字修正為因依規定實現將其開立電子發票及相關必要資訊傳輸至財政部電子發票整合服務平台存證增訂第四項第一項規定之傳輸實現開立電子發票及相關必要資訊之範圍由財政部公告之"},{"start":14300.325,"end":14309.451,"text":"新增第48條之二同線型條文第50條同線型法條文"},{"start":14310.851,"end":14329.647,"text":"委員中嘉賓等23人提案第10條修正為營業稅稅率除本法另有規定外最低不得少於5%最高不得超過10%其徵收率由行政院定之但於中華民國118年12月31日以前小規模營業人資營業稅稅率為1%前項小規模營業人資認定標準由財政部定之"},{"start":14334.651,"end":14361.062,"text":"第13條刪除第23條刪除第24條刪除第二項第三項第25條刪除第26條刪除第28條修正第一項營業人之總機構及其他固定營業場所月銷售額於一定基準者應分別向主管基層機關申請稅籍登記新增第二項前項月銷售額至一定基準由財政部定之第40條刪除"},{"start":14363.837,"end":14390.806,"text":"委員郭國文等17人提案第42條之一第三項修正為第一項應由主管基準機關核定之案件其案營業人申報資料核定或應補稅款符合稅捐基準法第25條之一免徵規定者主管基準機關得以公告方式在明申報業經核定代替核定稅額通知書之填據及送達"},{"start":14392.318,"end":14419.89,"text":"第44條第一項修正為財政部得指定稽查人員對營業人進行有無依規定開立統一發票之稽查並作成記錄第二項刪除第48條第一項修正為儲新台幣1500元以上15000元以下罰還第二項修正為儲新台幣3000元以上30000元以下罰還第59條修正為本法施行細則由財政部定之"},{"start":14421.414,"end":14438.903,"text":"第60條本法施行日起初中華民國88年6月28日修正公佈條文自88年7月1日施行106年6月14日修正公佈條文及全年全月全日修正之條文自公佈日施行外由行政院定之"},{"start":14444.349,"end":14463.914,"text":"委員陳昌明等18人提案第8條第一項新增第22款農漁會收購農林漁牧產物所製初級加工品其初級加工品由中央主管機關認定之其他款次依序調整委員邱志偉等16人提案修正第8條第一項第6款實體圖書免徵營業稅"},{"start":14466.533,"end":14477.839,"text":"委員代事保黨25人提案修正第13條第三項前二項小規模營業人指第11條第12條所列各業以外之規模小小平均每月銷售額為達30萬元而課徵營業稅制營業人"},{"start":14481.874,"end":14495.643,"text":"委員嚴寬恆等十六人提案第十三條第三項修正為前二項小規模營業人之第十一條第十二條所列各業以外之規模小小平均每月銷售額未達新台幣三十萬元而課徵營業稅之營業人"},{"start":14500.946,"end":14517.294,"text":"委員類似報導22人提案對照現行條文修正第58條為防止逃漏控制稅源及促進統一發票之推行財政部應訂定統一發票給蔣辦法,其經費由全年營業稅收入總額中提出3%以致因應"},{"start":14531.883,"end":14533.346,"text":"妳的資料因為剛剛被叫上來唸"},{"start":14548.086,"end":14574.887,"text":"接續宣讀臨時提案五案第一案請研議取消來自中國小額包裹免稅之優惠一依關稅法第49條第二項規定進口包裹物品因應相關規定徵收關稅貨物稅營業稅菸酒稅菸品健康福利捐特種貨物及勞務稅及推廣貿易服務費為自民國八十九年起規定完稅價格在新台幣下桶三千元以下者免稅"},{"start":14575.948,"end":14593.686,"text":"一百零七年一月一日起更調降免稅額度為二千元以下二根據統計上述進口包裹大部分來自中國且部分有分拆金額以化整為零的方式規避稅負三我國原為各類電子商品及民生用品的製造大國"},{"start":14594.767,"end":14616.029,"text":"所生產的相關產品品質優良廣受世界各國消費者愛用長期為台灣賺入大量外匯並支持台灣產業向上升級近三四十年來中國利用低廉的人工成本及大量抄襲及仿冒專利逐漸成為世界最大的消費性電子商品"},{"start":14616.69,"end":14636.004,"text":"及各類民生用品的製造大國我國許多消費者見多直接自中國進口或在網路購買致臺灣販售或滋用最終導致扼殺臺灣製造業的生存空間而小額免稅包裹更是助長質疑現象的幫兇我國製造業"},{"start":14637.044,"end":14652.158,"text":"稅逐漸衰退5.美國總統川普於本114年4月2日簽署行政命令自美東本年5月2日起取消來自中國與香港小額包裹的免稅優惠該免稅額度原本規定為美金800元"},{"start":14653.619,"end":14681.221,"text":"約合新台幣26,400元川普總統鑒於大量中國製造充斥美國的消費市場長期以危害其製造業的復興及整體經濟發展乃不惜宣告終止每金800元之優惠制度五國財政部依應與相關部會演繹取消對中國小額包裹之免稅優惠以免繼續傷害台灣本土製造業的發展進而振興製造業網路"},{"start":14682.822,"end":14707.182,"text":"往日榮景提案人吳秉瑞賴慧仁姑國文第二案依網路電子購物商務以下簡稱網購電商或跨境電商為商業發展之必然趨勢無可遏制目前在台灣較具規模之網購電商由我國本土業者如MOMO PC HOMEYahoo 奇摩 ETMO東森購物網"},{"start":14708.584,"end":14724.514,"text":"布克萊、露天市集、生活市集、松果購物等亦有已在台灣落地註冊取得合格營業登記依法繳納稅金者如Shopee、Shopee新加坡、Coupang、Coupang韓國"},{"start":14726.496,"end":14743.01,"text":"洛天、樂天、日本等,而由於網路國界,也有許多消費者在未曾來台落地登記的跨境電商平台上購物,如淘寶中國、時印中國、天目、中國拼多多控股的子公司,"},{"start":14744.111,"end":14767.198,"text":"樂天日本、亞馬遜、Amazon、美國、eBay、美國等這些為在我國落地登記的跨境電商夾起各自獨有的競爭優勢招攬我國消費者上網購物勸明除依法繳稅、免受消費者保護或個人資料保護相關法令之約束包括金流物流交割糾紛"},{"start":14768.838,"end":14794.006,"text":"貨物品質低劣甚至對人身造成傷害卻追溯無門等有有勝者中國電商如淘寶、史映、騰命等更以中國低廉的人工成本及大量抄襲及仿冒專利而成為世界最大的消費性電子商品及各類民生用品的製造大國其產品品項數量乃至價格等均具有他國所無之"},{"start":14795.406,"end":14812.042,"text":"強大競爭力造成我國消費者或直接向中國製造業者進口或自其跨境電商平台廣購因此而扼殺台灣製造業的生存空間最終導致台灣製造在實體店面及電商市場都喪失競爭力"},{"start":14813.783,"end":14839.147,"text":"3.網路電商便捷的購物模式,雖為新世代的購物主流,為為保護消費者權益,及振興台灣製造業之往日榮景。政府機關應協同加強對跨境電商之管理,包括鼓勵未在我國落地登記的境外電商依法登記,落實對已落地登記的境外電商之稅捐積增作業,檢視跨境電商對消費者的保護。"},{"start":14842.648,"end":14850.733,"text":"保護市府落實 清查會在5月6日進行財政部議件尤其是中國的財政部議件在五國不法的行動中來 建案或補強跨境電商這登記 經過查核等機制是網路電商平台之外 會承證諸多紙體商品亦有甚多自中國進口的生活日用品"},{"start":14867.384,"end":14879.732,"text":"加其通路方便、厚色齊全、價格低劣等優勢早已攻占五國消費市場此對台灣製造業的振興十分不利各機關因應共同對策一直對台灣製造業復興極為"},{"start":14884.814,"end":14913.553,"text":"極為不利的消費傾向提案人吳秉瑞 郭國文 賴慧媛第三案面對美國關稅新政策考量我國與美國談判快折數月慢折半年一年都有可能而資金流動是目前各產業最擔憂的問題之一原要求財政部及金管會督促國內銀行業者不要抽銀根避免造成產業雪上加霜協助業者度過此次難關提案人羅明才 黃珊珊 賴世寶"},{"start":14914.854,"end":14929.266,"text":"第四案,因美國關稅新政策,行政院擬定九大面向二十項措施,總經費八百八十億元的我國出口供應鏈支持方案,其中經濟部提出中小微企業代管加碼,提供代管額度。"},{"start":14930.766,"end":14957.436,"text":"250萬元以內1.5%為期六個月的利息補貼考量我國與美國談判快則數月慢則半年一年都有可能原要求經濟部考量為讓企業度過難關嚴密比較醫後振興專業專案貸款及低碳智慧納管貸款貸款額度於3500萬元以內提供利息補貼並且補貼期限最長一年其次為及時因應"},{"start":14959.757,"end":14982.919,"text":"為及時回應企業因應美國關稅政策的疑問與需求經濟部現有提供馬上辦諮詢專線量考量過往COVID-19疫情期間的諮詢經驗電話總是盲線引發民怨原要求經濟部因每日滾動式檢討調整服務量能力和品質以因應屆時各項措施申請辦法公布後的諮詢人潮"},{"start":14983.699,"end":15007.295,"text":"第二轮罗明彩黄珊珊赖世宝第五案鉴于近年诈骗案件频传且受法治新阅议政府积极打诈仍难以全面防治现由内政部警政署刑事警察局携手国内35家银行业者联合成立鹰眼试诈联盟运用AI侦测专利技术建制的鹰眼防诈预测模型在受害者报案前就可先辨识"},{"start":15008.556,"end":15029.391,"text":"並預警可疑的警視帳戶而且警視帳戶預先管控率最高達80%以上燃烤糧全台共有38家銀行業者剩有業者未加入該聯盟以及按金管會統計去年信用合作社的警視帳戶數有750億戶已被詐騙集團所利用而其未加入該聯盟明顯為得"},{"start":15031.613,"end":15050.952,"text":"原要求金管會督促國內所有銀行業者及信用合作社共同加入鷹眼施炸聯盟以完善台灣防炸防護網保障民眾資產安全必於兩個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告提案人羅明才、李燕秀、黃珊珊、賴世寶宣讀完畢"},{"start":15069.192,"end":15088.176,"text":"沒有 第一個齁 這個這個研議 這個財政部表示的意見吧這個對中國大陸來的小額包裹就要免稅把它取消掉 這個到底有多少錢啊這個目前是兩千塊這個以下的是免稅啊兩千塊以下 那如果取消免稅之後對然後取消免稅就是都要"},{"start":15099.902,"end":15113.736,"text":"這個取消免稅兩千塊低價免稅的話那就是所有的貨物都要課稅就是你要想清楚各位要想這個跟意識形態沒有關係因為很多支持民進黨的一直用這個兩千塊你把它取消這個東西"},{"start":15115.998,"end":15130.738,"text":"怎麼去課稅照原來的稅率每個貨品的我們只是研議研議可以的你們去討論一下文字是不是做一個修正那五位委員也同意了"},{"start":15132.558,"end":15155.946,"text":"就是第一的部分就依關稅法第49條第二項規定冒號還有那個引號刪掉然後後面的一個引號就服務費第三行的服務費後面的引號也拿掉另外就是維治民國89年改為87年就做這樣的一個維治修正條件就按照修正和通過又是延逸了宣告加入聯署"},{"start":15163.113,"end":15165.739,"text":"中委員跟李昆禎委員都加入提案"},{"start":15171.423,"end":15197.769,"text":"第二個提案吳委員還有我們賴委員都是提案那做文字的修正吳委員也已經同意那文字的修正就是在第三點的部分的第二行就政府機關修正為數位發展部應協同財政部及經濟部然後加強對跨境電商之管理"},{"start":15199.025,"end":15202.048,"text":"還有最後一段就是說"},{"start":15209.386,"end":15216.53,"text":"由經濟部會同數位發展部及財政部共謀對策這樣子就是把機關寫得更清楚這個我們是財政委員會不能夠經濟部放第一個財政部放第一個經濟部可以嗎"},{"start":15234.689,"end":15240.814,"text":"經濟部放第一個 因為今天樹化部不在啦所以經濟部放第一個 財政部放第二個 樹化部放第三個"},{"start":15247.577,"end":15275.946,"text":"那臨時提案的第三案那個原來在雲一年內委員原來就是把它刪掉所以這個部分我們遵照辦理遵照辦理第四案不是經濟部的第四案跟我們包括第四案第四案是經濟部的跟經濟部也有關那是不是在第五行的部分原要求經濟部這邊是不是可以改成原建議經濟部考量"},{"start":15277.186,"end":15301.268,"text":"那後面 倒數第三行 原要求是不是也可以讓我們改為原建議然後 因每日這邊 下一行 因每日改為因定期就修正這三個地方的文字你這定期是多久 你還是半年一年要不然就是每個月啦 每月啦 每月"},{"start":15305.08,"end":15306.321,"text":"好 這個報告我們現在這個"},{"start":15338.724,"end":15339.998,"text":"先看這本好不好第一本"},{"start":15362.013,"end":15384.96,"text":"第四條請署長說明報告委員因為第四條的部分沒有人的提案其實事實上我們現在施行細則裡面就有規定那我沒有參考司法院跟法務部的意見其實也是大致上是認為細則已經滿清楚了現在實務執行是沒有任何的障礙的沒有關係嘛"},{"start":15385.74,"end":15410.595,"text":"如果實施所做就已經代表沒有問題可以做你就給人家一點credit嘛原來有時候辦法變成一個法律你就你做啊就給他啊你不要說我已經在做了不用立法不需要這樣子嘛不需要這麼的科嘛就按照通過吧因為已經在做了嘛"},{"start":15411.508,"end":15422.076,"text":"對 我們目前就是這樣做就已經這樣做了嗎通常我們都是說因為我們現在沒有這樣做那當然就需要法律徵明訂那當然我們就還是就你們已經這樣做了我們就做了人會整個審查的結論就給他"},{"start":15427.461,"end":15442.723,"text":"照委員的意見通過第六條那第六條計畫也是一樣因為我們先細則第四條都已經有規定了好第六條內委員的意見通過第七條"},{"start":15444.488,"end":15466.506,"text":"那第七條的部分的話事實上我原來提案是認為因為司法院釋字第七次六號解釋認為滯納金不能再加計利息但因為我們在條文裡面非常清楚在應該是在第七項的部分已經講得很清楚說這個滯納金我是按照那個因補稅款來"},{"start":15468.127,"end":15484.597,"text":"大家可以看現行條文它是按照那因補繳稅款來算滯納金的所以它不會有所謂的抵觸憲法的問題那如果今天把這個滯納金就譬如說我們把利息因為它這兩個是不同的適用情形"},{"start":15485.037,"end":15513.746,"text":"譬如說滯納金是針對避稅案件它是違法我們叫做違法應該講說脫法的行為脫法行為它避稅的時候它就看你查不查得到所以我們會給它一個滯納金有點像相對是漏稅案件的漏稅法一樣只是它沒有到情節這麼嚴重所以我們會加這個所謂的滯納金那滯納金用英補稅款算15%另外呢它英補稅款因為它已經完繳了譬如被我們查會是兩年以後它已經完繳了兩年所以我們就要加其他利息"},{"start":15514.286,"end":15522.334,"text":"但這種算法基本上跟司法院那個解釋是完全沒有抵觸的這個在司法院或法務部的意見也是這樣"},{"start":15532.082,"end":15552.538,"text":"謝謝第二十條第二十條是納保官的部分那當然我知道外界有時候會覺得說我們好像全員簽裁判會不會有問題那我跟委員非常誠實的報告我們納保官制度實施以來啊因為主要是因為稅務的案件本身他的案件所涉及的交易太陽比較複雜"},{"start":15553.679,"end":15580.405,"text":"這階段法律也比較複雜它有涉及到國稅跟地方稅所以我們現在納保官技術參考日本跟比利時的方式都是由國稅局的同仁來監認那我們最重要是說到底他有沒有提供相關的保護根據我們這麼多年來實施我們每年都有送這個績效報告其實我們現在納稅人最直覺的反應都是他對我們納保官協調的結果他的滿意度已經高達99%"},{"start":15582.285,"end":15603.969,"text":"所以換句話說在目前的狀況之下其實納保官是覺得就是民眾對納保官是肯定的那我們也問過會計師公會的意見他也建議說我們現在納保官實施的成效很好他也建議說我們是不是維持現在還是由國稅局同名來兼任因為比較專業嘛因為我們要求至少八十等九十等消息最少年資要十名以上"},{"start":15604.429,"end":15622.631,"text":"然後我們也把他列入考核所以現在同仁都很努力在做這納保案件那如果對整個納保協調的結果如果最後的處分還是不符他還是有行政救濟的管道包含婦查啊 訴願啊 行政訴訟這些都有外部人士像我們婦查跟訴願都有外部人士這個都有規定的"},{"start":15623.732,"end":15647.244,"text":"所以我們是建議說現在的這個納保制度是不是可以還是像參考日本比例時一樣還是由我們同盟繼續去處理然後我們一樣跟以前一樣就是我們還是會列入所謂整個考核還有我們每年都會送報告到委員會來接受監督這樣子可不可以 我知道你意思了但是"},{"start":15651.36,"end":15668.446,"text":"你先講說有問題還是可以到上面去 上面就有外部專家那第一階段不要 你們是第一階段不要我們是希望第一階段就有啦 這樣可不可以這個授權給你們 我把因改成德 你可以要你可以不要"},{"start":15674.241,"end":15677.463,"text":"但外部專業人士比例不得低於總數二分之一這個拿掉前項納稅職權力保護官"},{"start":15703.996,"end":15726.127,"text":"得聘外部專業人士那委員我可以再請示一下那後面那個執法的部分是不是也可以刪除因為你如果知道委員原來的是有那個下一項次項他有講到那就是權力保護官的資格限制任期跟其他任職員事項有中央主管就官定制嘛那如果現在是得的話事實上就不用再這樣定嗎"},{"start":15727.809,"end":15744.464,"text":"但是還是有點限制啊你也不能隨便找一個人來當我們現在就有限制了我們現在就有限制我意思是說譬如學者你做教授大家可以接受你不要找一個這種回應的程度啊我瞭解你們的意思啊這個你們自己定啦都給你們自己定啦"},{"start":15744.724,"end":15747.385,"text":"那就是全校納保者權力保護官得聘外界學者專家學者專家"},{"start":15769.983,"end":15798.638,"text":"得聘外部學者專家擔任之這樣的話就結束了委員的意思對對對前向納稅者保護女官之事得聘外部外部專家學者擔任外部專家學者是不是外部專家學者擔任專家學者可以其他都不要了其他都不要了就這樣好 那文保文字整理一下趕快文字整理一下就是"},{"start":15800.619,"end":15824.158,"text":"那個納保官得品外界專家學者就是得選派 不用這樣我就叫你原來的文字 前項納稅者權益保護官制設置得選派外部專業人士擔任 就是你原來的第二款好啦好啦 好不好 我們就用這樣然後第四項我們就刪除 可以嗎好 可以 第三項"},{"start":15826.109,"end":15836.919,"text":"我們會定資格我們會定資格趕快把文字給那個好那你趕快寫給委員看好不好這過來21條21條都一樣21條部分跟委員報告這個這個有兩個問題等一下我等一下那個"},{"start":15850.407,"end":15875.206,"text":"前面那個最後沒有財政部每年就那是有權利預期我知道這個報告我們是不是提文字修正這邊對我們可以同意只是文字修正我們現在原來就有受財委會報告的名稱可以可以可以那我們就這樣好把那個名字等一下先讀了就修正報通過了修正報通過我再你唸一下好了唸一下報告委員我們就這樣"},{"start":15877.861,"end":15907.143,"text":"21條呢 21條都一樣21條的話這個因為都一樣嘛 就按照行政院版本這個沒有行政院版本 這個還沒有行政院版本以後怎麼沒有呢這是不一樣的21條不是喔 21條它是指那個我們這個沒有行政院版本啊這個完全沒有行政院版本"},{"start":15910.571,"end":15914.495,"text":"最後一項第七項財政部的修正是財政部每年第20條"},{"start":15929.468,"end":15944.501,"text":"20條 財政部每年應就稅捐積增機關辦理納稅者權利報復業務績效及考核結果提出報告並受立法院備查有財政部的意見我們接受了21條"},{"start":15949.205,"end":15969.08,"text":"那21條的部分的話這個是屬於行政訴訟中的案件如果今天行政法院我們的原來處分被法院撤銷或變更的時候那我們在15年內如果沒有做成決定的話他就是不能再行合作"},{"start":15970.701,"end":15974.585,"text":"21條採現行版本好 謝謝謝謝委員 非常謝謝還有21條之一因為現在就有懲罰機制因為現行機制"},{"start":15994.738,"end":15998.679,"text":"如果違反相關規定的話就有公務員懲戒法跟你跟這個規定不一樣不要鎮定不鎮定第一個總嘉賓委員的我說明一下好不好請請"},{"start":16022.609,"end":16041.682,"text":"來我這邊有兩個案子那可能大家一時之間各位我們委員會的委員會覺得說怎麼會有兩個案子其實它是兩個制度那先我用18人跟23人來做區分那18人的案子它其實是將開立統一發票的"},{"start":16043.202,"end":16056.045,"text":"以維持在20萬沒有去更動我覺得說20萬以下是免開統一發票因為這個全案我要再說明一下我是定在第32條平均每月銷售為達20萬隻小規模營業人的次發普通收據沒有統一發票"},{"start":16065.323,"end":16092.811,"text":"這個部分呢是跟原條文呢不一樣那原條文呢他是只有沒有把那個金額寫出來我這裡是就明定那事實上這個20萬是跟現在開立統一發票的門檻是一樣的這是指18人的提案但是18人提案他雖然維持一個20萬以下免開立統一發票但是這跟小規模營業人的定義是脫鉤的因為我在第13條的部分呢也跟我們賴思寶委員的提案"},{"start":16095.052,"end":16107.778,"text":"是維持有20萬維持統一發票的情況之下呢我們把小規模營業人定義在50萬以下叫小規模營業人那小規模營業人適用的稅率就跟"},{"start":16109.537,"end":16131.712,"text":"以上的營業人不一樣 一個是1% 一個5%大概我先說明一下我的23人提案跟18人提案的差別是這裡那剛講的是18人提案它仍然維持有一個一定額度上才要開立統一發票一定額度以下免於開立統一發票只是目前我們的原條文 現行的條文是沒有把金額寫出來那這樣的話 那我還沒講完嗎那23人的部分"},{"start":16135.535,"end":16152.42,"text":"二十三年的部分呢就根本的就把這個可以免開統一發票的規定就拿掉了那這個衝擊是比較大也就是說這個完全由財政部他來決定這個這個憑證的這個使用的方法"},{"start":16153.654,"end":16178.079,"text":"那這個時候呢也對於所謂的小規模營業人就是這個一趴五趴的規定呢就沒有在這裡面做明確的規範那以上說明那看看財政部是不是沒有我先看財政部他有沒有偏好會學怕會學怕所以我才說要先聽聽看主管機關的意見所以你等於說兩個會學怕財政部替你改觀這樣他們看要做什麼他們才不會聽"},{"start":16181.09,"end":16199.485,"text":"等一下 等一下 等一下這樣子啊 那個總委員啦你這樣說 這回事什麼啦我們是不是就一條一條 好不好就這樣一條一條來啦好不好我們現在看第 莊家斌委員的提案第六十一 六十一就"},{"start":16201.272,"end":16206.678,"text":"科學 科技產業園區科學園區跟科技產業園區現在的用法是要科技產業園區不是科學園區喔"},{"start":16217.029,"end":16236.326,"text":"是是是 我們現行條文在今年1月4 你們改了去年8月7號就修正公佈 我的條文比較慢所以你們不用改了你們會員先提現行條文好 第八條那第八條的部分我來說明一下那因為陳委員他特別提出來是農漁會 他在增訂22款農漁會收購21頁 21頁 21頁 謝謝"},{"start":16243.351,"end":16261.22,"text":"他是針對蒙漁會收購蒙漁漁牧產物所製初級加工品其初級加工品由中央主管機關認定之那我跟委員報告目前對於蒙漁會他是怎麼課稅的現在事實上在共同產銷制度之下基本上全部都免"},{"start":16261.92,"end":16272.152,"text":"好 都是免的也就是說農民你也免農民會也免那現在被課的是不符合共同產銷制度的部分那目前農民會只有賣給會員的可以免賣給非會員的還是要課稅這是現行規定"},{"start":16278.038,"end":16302.606,"text":"那這樣之後我們修正就會變成今天農漁會賣給非會員也可以唸那這個衝擊是什麼我們現在可以想像兩家超市一個叫農漁會超市一家是我們一般的超市我們就不要講哪一家譬如說女醫生就是一國兩制的啦對 我們就是考慮到這個所以我們是建議對啊 好不好我們就陳昌明我們就不予修訂啦 好不好"},{"start":16304.434,"end":16332.132,"text":"還有一個 邱志維邱志維 邱志維 邱志維那邱志維委員對不起 等一下圖書的部分那我跟委員報告因為我們現在的文化藝術講座條例裡面所授權替代執法我們現在是要經過文化部認可的經過他們認可的圖書他就可以解免就可以免一月稅那因為這樣委員這樣一講的話就會變成讓人家覺得好像我不需要進行認可這樣好不好我稍微修正一下"},{"start":16333.232,"end":16350.367,"text":"陳昌明委員跟邱志文委員的提案財政部基本上我們尊重他他就不接受不接受我們不要說不予修訂我們把他留在財政委員會萬一哪一天他做要了我們還可以用好不好就把他留在這裡不予處理不予處理這樣就結束了就放在這裡了再過來"},{"start":16358.154,"end":16376.714,"text":"那接下來是第四條那這個其實整個都是關於人性的關於人性那我們是不是可以就相關的條例跟小規模因為主要大概都是這個就是庄家平委剛剛提的第十條跟第十三條啦"},{"start":16378.515,"end":16402.561,"text":"這兩個 希望財政部指導他一下其實我們有跟委員溝通過我們都知道委員利益都有良好反而是希望說我們現在本來財政部一直說規定20萬我跟委員報告當時都是希望台灣的價值行業稅永遠都會變主流簡單講在國外他們也都是大家去日本就知道"},{"start":16405.115,"end":16419.251,"text":"我們目前還不敢我們至少要有一個緩衝期裡面但是它有一個財政部規定標準是授權我們訂的那我們這個就是有彈性就是我們看與時俱進去調整這個免使用方法"},{"start":16419.711,"end":16435.872,"text":"的那個標準這樣那當然我們當時為什麼只維持20萬是因為我們希望台灣到最後都按照實際銷售額來課1、2歲這就像我們去日本旅遊大家可以發現每一家商店機都有開評準它有多少就報多少那台灣的機制是變成說我給了一個"},{"start":16437.854,"end":16451.743,"text":"免使用發票以後就變成有一部分是課1%的稅率有些人就課5%但是因為這個制度實施到現在我們還是認為說可能還是有一些需要查聽課程所以我們就維持但我真的是請委員是不是因為"},{"start":16453.344,"end":16476.257,"text":"發票制度走到今天真的很不容易它是我們現在發票已經不是單純只是課稅的工具它包含了食品稅源包含了我們競銷勾結包含洗錢防治它已經變形到富有各項公司我知道了你當然講的是一個例但是另外一個例現在真的微型企業是要很難看的"},{"start":16476.917,"end":16503.6,"text":"真的 這個來其他委員會議見來 郭委員這個部分其實我們在委員會也交換過好幾次意見可是就如同剛剛署長所講的那與時俱進 做彈性調整可是從來沒有調整過從來都沒有啊 一定要維持二十啊那個數十年來的日子他不是想要把他殺掉 連二十都不要對 他是打算把他殺掉然後我們打算是要把他提高那個完全立場上不一樣"},{"start":16507.328,"end":16526.475,"text":"就是我們應該講說台灣未來的制度我們希望走向什麼我們台灣是應該越來越進步嘛然後我們希望說家族型應該變成一個主流但是我們現在是有一個緩衝所以我是真的請委員是不是可以支持我們還是維持有財政規定標準但我們隱若就是我們財政部會去"},{"start":16527.782,"end":16551.439,"text":"思考一個配套措施這個賴昭偉賴昭偉的意見他今天本來他的意見很多他滿堅持的我覺得我支持他其實我是記得去年去年宋所長也是去年我們財委會也提過相同的事情其實我們都是希望說既然與時俱進的話那這20萬是30幾年前訂的標準是不是"},{"start":16556.644,"end":16567.934,"text":"對啊 那現在已經是114年了啊那你還在用S1的標準這個其實來講就沒有與時俱進啦就是如果沒有做一些調整的話你們就會按照這個意思這樣好不好"},{"start":16573.038,"end":16594.19,"text":"彼此尊重一下啦 因為你的目標很好就最好把它殺掉 可是目前殺不掉而且危險事業這麼多 真的很辛苦啦你那個賣個麵你還給我開發票 可憐啦 真的早餐賣個蛋餅 全部蛋餅加那個豆漿加起來都不到五十塊錢你還要給我開發票"},{"start":16598.412,"end":16613.877,"text":"對不對 這個東西我覺得太老民了這樣好不好 我做一個小結啦尊重總委員 50萬不然我的30萬你37年都沒有調整啊你總是要讓我們委員 你看今天基本上我都尊重"},{"start":16622.439,"end":16636.467,"text":"尊重你啊你剛剛說要維持你們的但是這個我覺得替那個真的很小的企業著想一下這把它提高一點然後呢我們出去要協商你們還可以再去想一想 這樣這樣好不好"},{"start":16643.486,"end":16661.928,"text":"要入法你們就因為我們今天這個事情賴昭偉跟我反面好幾次叫你們做你們都不做所以要入法啦我沒有害你喔我吹捧你啊你即便沒有入法基本上你們沒有入法所以你說要保留彈性事實上也從來沒有彈性過"},{"start":16664.458,"end":16674.089,"text":"對啊 因為我們其實建議過非常多次啊你就一直維持20萬 一直維持20萬那其實不符 那個已經開了一張發票真的不符那個行政成本"},{"start":16676.929,"end":16699.103,"text":"我的意思是這樣的就是說的確委員非常照顧一般的小商民然後也提了很多次但是財政部規定標準就像我們一般的執法一樣它是有保留與時俱進的彈性但委員如果認為我們這麼多年都沒有調整今天可以做成就是維持財政規定標準但做成一個決議說要求我們財政部未必要檢討"},{"start":16700.765,"end":16715.455,"text":"然後我們就會把檢討的結果 包含配套措施一起送過來 然後我們送過來人們會一定會審嘛 審過了以後那我們就根據這個來調整你那個不用入法 跟我們一起審都審不到了這個這樣子啦 那個"},{"start":16719.264,"end":16746.005,"text":"其實齁我真的因為這個也提案很久了我從上一屆提那這一屆又提那其實也很感謝召委排入議程所以開始財政部負稅署動起來了我不要說緊張起來了那其實我為什麼兩個提案其實呢也是跟負稅署有討論過那為什麼呢其實這個制度呢有兩個點大家都把它擰在一起原來在條文裡面第一他們有明定小規模營業人"},{"start":16747.586,"end":16770.058,"text":"是多少金額 月營業額是多少 平均月營業額第二 他也沒有去明訂免用統一發票他有規定哪些像什麼市長者啦這些免用統一發票有規定但是月營業額多少以下的也免用統一發票 沒有規定但是我們都知道稅率免用統一發票這個事情跟小規模營業能適用1%的稅率這是兩碼子事情"},{"start":16774.247,"end":16795.589,"text":"這是兩碼子事情如果財政部付稅署你想保留統一發票因為現在是20萬為門檻但是如果我們把這個調高之後的確會產生一個情況我原來是20萬以上了我就用了統一發票了可是我現在還做到40萬結果呢你們通過了一個版本是50萬以上才需要開統一發票那我要不要再開啊"},{"start":16796.696,"end":16825.475,"text":"對不對 就會有新制跟舊制就發票的開立的門檻的新舊制的問題所以開立發票這個選項跟視為小規模營業人適用1%的稅率這是要脫鉤處理我目前的為什麼兩個版本我這兩個版本一個有脫鉤 一個沒有脫鉤一個就是明白的寫所有的小規模營業人就是50萬以下的就叫小規模營業人然後50萬以下的小規模營業人就是1%"},{"start":16826.756,"end":16836.353,"text":"但是另外一個版本呢 我就讓他脫鉤就是不去更動我們把所謂的免用統一發票的規定就授權給財政部"},{"start":16838.243,"end":16857.543,"text":"然後所謂的小規模營業人要給1%的稅率的也交給財政部所以這兩個版本財政部其實如果你們早知道你們要趕快挑一個你們比較可以接受的但是今天比較可惜的是其他各委員的版本是傾向兩個門檻都重新規定"},{"start":16858.644,"end":16886.982,"text":"五十萬或三十萬沒有統一發票以下嘛五十萬或三十萬以下百分之一的稅率所以我第一說我很佩服我們召委拍了這個案子但是我是覺得財政部因為你們到現在都沒有表示你們對於發票開立發票這個事情跟小規模營業人適用百分之一的稅率的事情你們沒有去做出調整我兩套制度讓你們選你們都沒有做其實這兩個是可以脫鉤的喔開立統一發票這個事情是可以維持在二十萬以下"},{"start":16887.702,"end":16914.54,"text":"但是如果你要給小規模營業人比如說30萬以下或50萬以下給他1%的稅率這也是可以規定的所以大家誤會了誤會以為說我們的提案要消滅統一發票或者要把統一發票的這個門檻拉高讓不開發票的行業人更增加錯外界都有這個影響你們在對媒體的角度也是這樣我們那個提案一出來什麼50萬的門檻啊你們現在把開立發票移到50萬那麼很多小店家就不開發票了"},{"start":16915.782,"end":16935.003,"text":"其實可不可以處理因為我們本職上在座的委員會員我們本職上是什麼兩件事情要不要開發票第一個第二個小規模營業人一定金額以下的要不要給他1%的稅率優惠這是兩件事情我們對於小店家的體恤有兩個體恤一個是他營業規模很小你用他用5%或1%這對他來講有一個"},{"start":16938.462,"end":16962.047,"text":"照顧的意味第二個開立發票這個成本對有些營業人士有負擔的但是有些營業人士沒有負擔的所以我們這兩件事不一樣的開立發票的賬戶成本是一件事情1%跟5%在它的營業規模要適用兩個不同的稅率但是財政部下來都說不行不能有兩個稅率這樣不公平為什麼同樣是做生意規模小的就要1%規模大的就5%"},{"start":16964.007,"end":16982.894,"text":"這剛好是跟我們各位委員的想法剛好南圓北側我們認為規模小的就是因為辛苦嘛所以給他一趴嘛那如果你們認為開發票要堅持那就繼續堅持開發票但是小規模的呢給一趴的優惠所以這是兩件事情所以我兩套方法讓財政部選到現在都沒有回應"},{"start":16986.479,"end":17013.303,"text":"我覺得看看莊委員意見怎麼樣喔就是第十條的就可不可以第十條維持行政院版本第十三條財政部的意見吧不不不 他們意見就不要他兩個都不要不行啊我們可以通過一個版本啊沒有嘉賓他們兩個都不要他們基本上的程度就是兩個都不要我現在這樣子好不好就是第十三條我們把大家的三十萬五十萬的一起送出去"},{"start":17014.226,"end":17026.891,"text":"好啦一直送出門啦不是說我們統一就送出門送出門 去協商好不好 用這樣我從議事規則上程序處理一下好啦 因為真的"},{"start":17028.038,"end":17048.151,"text":"我們如果都不動 財政部就不會動了我們動了 你們想挽回頹勢我跟你說要分手了 你才不來追我啦不然等著你在家裡等你電話 你都不來電話啊我說不玩啦 我退啦你就開始打電話約我看電影了啦所以我們現在就先通過一個案子但是呢 保留給他們回過頭來之後 他們想用什麼方式跟我交往"},{"start":17048.991,"end":17069.55,"text":"是要以結婚為前提的交往還是以同居為前提的交往你們提但是有一個意識上的程序因為我那個23人的版本如果那個條文沒有留未來要朝野協商他們要進來改條文會沒有地方可以複立可是你這兩個出去是矛盾的喔是矛盾你只能調遷喔那就都保留啊"},{"start":17070.356,"end":17096.318,"text":"啊?就是說一個保留,那一個呢?好啦,可以啦都保留,都保留,沒有通過,沒有通過加了尊重財政部,我們已經有夠尊重財政部了啦因為他們不講話,我真的覺得絕下去你們會很痛苦喔沒有,我只是提醒中文人,到時候人家會跟你打槍說你怎麼自己兩個矛盾欸,彼此矛盾,我怕你啊捏我保留18人版本就是50萬喔"},{"start":17099.619,"end":17122.136,"text":"那可是你們就改不回來那個發票跟小規模業人脫鉤處理喔沒關係你們再想齁 沒關係 那既然他們希望那個18人的白門我就留18都說協商你們要提出一個新的方案出來喔 不能在那邊都反對而已喔對你們打算怎麼做 你們要提出一個相對案出來喔那個"},{"start":17124.461,"end":17134.467,"text":"對對對對對對對沒有錯啊這跟我們那個打賽一樣好啦放棄了好就決定了齁夾兵他要回來追你了他有說要追了齁我等電話找到啊"},{"start":17136.129,"end":17163.007,"text":"第十條 宗教兵委員第十條也是保留送出去 保留送出去保留送出去 他要嘛第十三條 中委員跟賴委員的也全部保留出去延輝委員延輝委員的第十三條好 宗教兵委員的第十八條"},{"start":17165.899,"end":17189.056,"text":"18輪的第23條呢23條怎麼樣23條如果這樣就變成定案都保留了因為他是跟著跟著前面第13條的這個全部保留了對 如果這樣都要全部保留因為這是兩套系統對對對就變成23條 24條還有包含了25條 26條"},{"start":17199.032,"end":17202.655,"text":"第幾條 第幾條第幾條 第23條保留第24條保留26條253組"},{"start":17221.987,"end":17225.689,"text":"要保留好26條也保留32條也保留保留保留保留"},{"start":17253.19,"end":17258.674,"text":"三十二條之一採現行法那四十條呢保留好 四十二條之一保留"},{"start":17274.657,"end":17290.925,"text":"還好吧這個我跟委員報告這個你明明不會同意啊我跟委員報告 但是在行政院審查當中所以是不是可以等那個所以保留 我們的保留對 保留就對了就是42條G 44條還有48條以及48條G"},{"start":17301.81,"end":17310.392,"text":"48之後已經通過了 已經是現行條人了所以我提的這三條都保留就是了是 就在院長裡面 對對對就會進來了 對還有那個50條 50條對對 也是一樣的那個案現行法 58條"},{"start":17322.677,"end":17338.32,"text":"五十八條呢五十八條的話我就把德改成因啦不過委員是這樣子那個增加了一個一個抽獎機會啦因為我們現在每一年我們現在從一百年開始全部都按照"},{"start":17339.621,"end":17349.263,"text":"因為我們現在就有啊我們現在就是都要按足額去編了我們現在就要按足額編了對啊 那為什麼是 可是因為有時候啊你看有時候發生一些重大的一些事故的時候我們要保留一點財政調整的彈性啦簡單的講說如果你是"},{"start":17367.606,"end":17376.074,"text":"因為 各位知道嗎他現在編多少 譬如說編一百塊 結果他收到一百一他只用一百塊去發那個統一發票給獎 十塊錢不要了 變這樣子"},{"start":17383.18,"end":17384.881,"text":"因為我覺得統一發票給獎這件事情是看你要給到什麼程度"},{"start":17406.315,"end":17426.27,"text":"但是我們現在都真的都在鼓勵大家用完端發票都是用這種方式所以我是建議說是不是可以維持現行規定但是我們現在原則上都是按百分之一去編足啦保留一點 對不起 百分之三啦那這個可以保留我們預算變略的彈性啦"},{"start":17426.95,"end":17444.253,"text":"主席 我覺得有點疑惑欸五十三條 五十八條憲刑規定跟賴委員的版本齁他的德呢跟因呢是放在要定定辦法欸那你德定辦法跟因定辦法怎麼好吵的就是定啊可是 後面沒有你 你在面試前那是分號你那個是分號"},{"start":17445.694,"end":17458.824,"text":"說德定定跟因定定但是分號後面齊經費你的德跟因有沒有反射到後面經費的百分之三可是委員的立法說明是後面也是因你的立法後面是因嗎"},{"start":17464.568,"end":17468.751,"text":"我真的覺得你們解讀錯誤他的英跟德韓式的範圍是大家要定辦法他的說明是第三條"},{"start":17484.48,"end":17488.523,"text":"58條就按照這個通過然後那個說明人改文字"},{"start":17506.829,"end":17521.522,"text":"我建議說明欄就依現在的這個我們的這個重整版的說明文字就可以了啦因為這件事的說明你馬上看一下那第三點完全就跟你們的無色嘛那第二個那個主席剛剛那個郭委員的那個提案版本"},{"start":17522.162,"end":17539.579,"text":"建議是另定期處理另擇期處理啦因為他的版本要等行政院到了委員會並案處理如果我們現在把他保留他會變成跑到協商的時候去等行政院辦那把他留在委員會等行政院比較好他也同意的話我們我是建議說把國委的版本留在本委員會另擇期處理好第59條咧"},{"start":17544.289,"end":17572.181,"text":"那58條我們修法說明再改給再調整對對對他那個還是我私下在跟您報告我私下在跟您報告59條對啊這個也是一樣嘛也是在行政院版本裡面那就是應定期處理啦好不好"},{"start":17572.788,"end":17576.991,"text":"各位我們做一個 因為大家花很多時間中部還沒吃飯 我們就來做一個結論各位看這張 八案這張"},{"start":17600.95,"end":17626.024,"text":"包含這張中嘉賓18人的以及中嘉賓23人的以及賴世保25人的以及顏寬仁16人的這四個案子併案保留送院會寫上這樣好不好四個四個四個然後另外一個是賴世保"},{"start":17627.83,"end":17654.119,"text":"22人的第58條通過但是說明欄按照財政部所給的說明欄這樣不需要協商 這個就不需要協商了 好不好郭國文的那個17人的另立即處理那個其他的都留下來其他的全部留下來好委員郭國文17人的陳昌明18人的邱志偉16人的這三案另"},{"start":17657.011,"end":17663.774,"text":"另責其審查這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦這樣可以啦"},{"start":17684.443,"end":17703.728,"text":"因為我們這樣保留宋朝野協商那是一個月啦但是我是覺得以今年的修法的狀況還是要約束財政部還是要在多久期限內一個月內或多少期限內因為協商的東西完了之後不見得會馬上協商啦"},{"start":17706.522,"end":17723,"text":"所以呢你們在那一個月內要研議就是就兩個部分提出你們的對案出來第一個就立就統一發票的因開立統一發票的資格規定你們要提一個主張出來"},{"start":17723.936,"end":17740.696,"text":"第二個對於小規模營業人現在本來就有一趴的優惠嘛那對於小規模營業人的定義跟他的一趴的租稅優惠的配套方案要提出一個方法出來那這兩個有沒有連動你們自己判斷我講很清楚喔"},{"start":17742.326,"end":17765.365,"text":"因為統一發票這個事情20萬調成50萬或調成30萬這個是會牽動在現在已經開立統一發票的小店家的影響但是小規模營業人的資格定義以及所謂的1%的或者我們不要說1%就是稅率優惠優惠稅率的規定那你們要提出一個月內提出一個對案出來"},{"start":17767.899,"end":17772.881,"text":"這個部長還有宋署長 署長你聽我講一下你一直想把阿斯文那個殺掉"},{"start":17781.576,"end":17804.921,"text":"這個沒有人願意當窮人啦大家不是一定要當窮人一定是做二十萬的啦除非你做假不然我當然希望做兩百萬的 做兩千萬的為什麼我一定要做二十萬的就沒辦法啊 死記者不要這樣你不要把他先把他殺掉不同的mindset啦 你知道這不同的mindset好不好"},{"start":17807.845,"end":17809.672,"text":"你們兩個下來把你們的附帶決定通過"},{"start":17811.616,"end":17840.282,"text":"負貸決議要不要寫一下我們這兩個負貸決議要寫一下吧還是我們口頭這樣你們寫喔來來來主席我想要請求做成紀錄因為剛剛這個臨時提案我沒有在嘛就是有關研議取消來自中國小兒研議啦沒有沒有我要做紀錄好可以嗎可以請求紀錄嗎我知道現在已經通過了因為我覺得這個會影響到民生經濟民生經濟勝據喔我是反對這個案子這個會影響到因為世界是分工的嘛"},{"start":17840.842,"end":17857.187,"text":"我可以留下這個記錄就好了,因為到時候老百姓會罵死啊雖然他們是通過了,但我要記錄我是反對的我要記錄我是反對,不然因為我有開會,沒關係我還是反對我覺得這是一個戴風箱那種行為是反對的我反對,請留下記錄就好了"},{"start":17859.167,"end":17882.018,"text":"因為這個對老百姓影響太大了老百姓如果從大陸往上勾他上面寫是寫演繹啦演繹也是代表一個風向嘛那老百姓現在世界是分工的話有人可能買衣服啊買鞋子買什麼小東西啊都會可能受到重大影響不然我們這個案子先留著啦我不知道他們怎麼想如果民進黨想過就給他過沒關係但是我反對啦他們能多嘛"},{"start":17882.758,"end":17898.77,"text":"對 留下紀錄就可以了留下我的紀錄啦他們要支持就把支持人紀錄下來讓老百姓來公平就好我反對啊我連言議我都覺得反對請留下我的紀錄就可以了他們要怎麼過 他們人多嘛也可以表決啊"},{"start":17902.236,"end":17920.254,"text":"沒關係沒關係 請留下我反對的紀錄 這點非常重要因為這對老百姓影響太大 就是說老百姓上網買東西就不能 就是免稅的額度全部都被取消了這個不能對老百姓影響太大了這個不是這樣我要反對 你這樣講我要反對這會對老百姓影響很大嘛言喻就是一個方向嘛"},{"start":17922.176,"end":17930.585,"text":"你分黨派都會擁有的到啦對啊沒關係我說你們通過沒關係但是我要留下我反對的紀錄啊因為老百姓會有意見啦給你通過給你通過請留下紀錄就好謝謝那我們等一下等林子緹最後的確認"},{"start":17942.352,"end":17965.181,"text":"我們留兩個提案等你提案就那個事情沒有那個是負債券負債券要法案生效才算數臨提是絕書他們在法案通過前要提出對案出來不然我們協商的時候你們不提啊不提我們還是要處理啊這樣處理會很難喔你們會痛的受不了如果我們通過一個兩個五十五十"},{"start":17967.381,"end":17972.085,"text":"因為部長其實這個你要可以問稅務啦其實現在的我們小店家小公司營業人他有兩種成本一個是賬戶成本"},{"start":17986.998,"end":18011.624,"text":"我不用發票跟用發票我有我的做帳記帳的成本一個是營業的成本因為我營業雖然這個營業稅是消費者付的但是我的規模如果比較小我用1%跟5%因為我們都是先抽錢再付給稅務機關所以小店家他會認為我就收了這麼多錢了我拿5%出去跟拿1%出去Tone的感覺不同雖然我們認為那叫代扣"},{"start":18012.324,"end":18038.032,"text":"好 報告委員會我們現在協商完成了請議事人員宣讀協商結論先宣讀民事提案第一案修正通過第二案修正通過第三案照案通過第四案修正通過第五案照案通過沒有沒有 第一案要寫賴世鵬委員及陳義森委員反對發言反對 這案留紀錄公報紀錄對"},{"start":18042.685,"end":18054.553,"text":"一定要留記錄 因為這個影響太大了所有老百姓都會問了對 因為這個你們的人多麼稅務制度對 他們通過民進黨哪些委員支持最好寫下來"},{"start":18056.679,"end":18073.096,"text":"那這個其實已經對現在所以很多營業人都想要躲在二十萬以下就是兩千塊以下的重新捏掉啦重新捏掉可是他就要他的三四十萬銀額要支撐每個月付三四千塊的記帳室的帳務成本是太高了"},{"start":18074.639,"end":18076.601,"text":"重新宣讀臨時提案第一案修正通過這個陳立正委員跟賴思鵬委員我們發言我們這個"},{"start":18095.953,"end":18124.355,"text":"第二案修正通過第三案照案通過第四案修正通過第五案照案通過宣讀納稅者權利保護法部分條文修正草案協商結論第四條 趙委員 羅廷瑋等18人提案通過第六條 趙委員 賴世寶等22人提案通過第七條 維持現行法條文第20條 趙委員 賴世寶等22人修正通過不下"},{"start":18130.317,"end":18141.582,"text":"第二十條稅捐基增機關應主動提供納稅者妥適必要之協助並設置專人為納稅者權力保護官辦理下列事項一"},{"start":18143.623,"end":18165.312,"text":"1 協助納稅者進行稅捐爭議之溝通與協調2 受理納稅者之申訴或澄清並提出改善建議3 於納稅者依法尋求救濟時提供必要之諮詢與協助4 每年提出納稅者權力保護之工作成果報告"},{"start":18166.332,"end":18192.918,"text":"前項鎖定之納稅者權利保護官與辦理納稅者權利保護事項得為必要之調查前項納稅者權利保護官得由外部專家學者擔任我們會在檢查的時候會變成是我們的修正動力啊我們可以修正動力進去啊他們送來的改為外在這裡不是不是不是不是不是不是不是"},{"start":18201.557,"end":18219.309,"text":"第三項前項納稅者權利保護官得由外部專家學者擔任稅捐基增機關應將納稅者權利保護官之姓名及聯絡方式報財政部備查並與網站公告之人員有所變動時一同"},{"start":18220.45,"end":18246.198,"text":"第一項辦理情形財政部得隨時派員抽查資並列入年度基增業務考和項目財政部每年應就稅捐基增機關辦理納稅者權利保護業務績效及考核結果提出報告並送立法院備查第二十一條之一不予徵訂"},{"start":18250.302,"end":18272.168,"text":"第二十一條維持現行法條文第二十一條之一不予增訂宣讀加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案第六條之一維持現行法條文第十條第十條保留送院會處理第十三條"},{"start":18274.77,"end":18275.131,"text":"我沒聽他講好"},{"start":18280.953,"end":18298.326,"text":"第八條委員陳超明及委員邱志偉委員所提併則其處理第十條保留送院會處理第十三條各人分別提案三案均保留送院會處理第23條第24條第25條第26條第25條均保留送院會處理第26條兩案均保留送院會處理第28條第2932條"},{"start":18311.056,"end":18317.63,"text":"保留送院會處理第32條之一維持現行法條文第40條保留送院會處理"},{"start":18319.284,"end":18345.454,"text":"委員郭國文提案第42條之一第44條第48條另則其處理第48條之二維持現行法條文第50條維持現行法條文第58條照委員賴世寶等人提案通過並修正說明文字委員郭國文等人提案第59條第60條另定其處理宣讀完畢"},{"start":18346.414,"end":18349.717,"text":"請財政部於一個月內研議小規模營業人資格認定營業人使用統一發票銷售"},{"start":18369.858,"end":18393.711,"text":"而標準及優惠稅率之適用 向財政委員會提出對應方案提案委員 賴氏寶 鍾嘉賓 李崑禎 薛獨愛B好 我們就通過好 這個向委員會報告請問各位委員對行政結論有異議沒有異議我們就"},{"start":18395.683,"end":18415.905,"text":"照協商結論通過本日會議做如下之決議第一報告說明及詢問完畢第二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所求所定"},{"start":18418.222,"end":18433.249,"text":"委員 顏寬恆 徐欣穎 林祖英 陳冠廷 王世堅所提的書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":18434.738,"end":18449.39,"text":"第四 納稅者權利保護法部門條文修正草案等四案審查人均你併案你據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論以前須由黨團協商院會討論時有本席補充說明"},{"start":18463.806,"end":18485.337,"text":"對不起 休息一下因為討論以前不須交友黨的協商不是啊 這個有的要求 我的案子不要討論黨的協商啊剛剛先讀過了這個不用了我再確定一下喔"},{"start":18493.735,"end":18495.516,"text":"請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有異議報告委員會"},{"start":18520.421,"end":18548.987,"text":"本入會議一成好這個報告文外委員鍾嘉斌18人 擬拒 加執行其非加執行引頁稅法 破文條文修正草案委員鍾嘉斌等23人 擬拒加執行其非加執行"},{"start":18552.292,"end":18570.738,"text":"營業稅法部門條文修正草案以及委員賴思寶等25人凝聚 加持型及非加持型營業稅法第13條條文修正草案委員袁寬仁等16人凝聚 加持型及非加持型營業稅法第13條修正草案"},{"start":18573.89,"end":18590.299,"text":"這個這四個案子審查完畢並按明據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論以前需交由黨的協商院會討論的時候有本席補充說明請問各位對以上決議有無異議沒有異議通過"},{"start":18593.532,"end":18594.372,"text":"請問該委員對於以上決議有異議沒有"},{"start":18620.7,"end":18647.915,"text":"委員郭光文等17人擬拒加持薪及非加持薪營業稅法不應條例修正草案委員陳昌明等18人擬拒加持薪及非加持薪營業稅法第8條條例修正草案委員邱志偉等16人擬拒加持薪及非加持薪營業稅法第8條條例修正草案另責其繼續審查"},{"start":18650.732,"end":18671.427,"text":"請問各位委員對以上決議有疑問沒有疑問就通過那麼報告為本日會議程全部進行完畢倘若有不在場的委員不提書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理本期宣布散會謝謝"},{"start":18679.036,"end":18688.625,"text":"這個立法說明的那個我們就在一個月內長約會只因為我有空我也有空辛苦了辛苦了辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"16578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16578","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685df824e3382b7a8d0b6918ac9a81339754af80a8cb003b9ba160c3de7a0fd721c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「工會法修法及廠場工會設立權益制度」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-10T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T11:40:00+08:00","duration":11339,"影片長度":"03:08:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 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歡迎 歡迎中國鋼鐵古文有限公司企業工會常務理事楊以濟台灣高等教育產業工會研究員陳柏謙行政官員 勞動部常務次長陳明仁"},{"start":1979.943,"end":1983.644,"text":"勞動關係師師長王厚為勞動福祉退休師專門委員邱倩麗勞動條件及就業平等師專門委員李怡萱"},{"start":2005.872,"end":2025.666,"text":"職業安全衛生署檢任計政 葉錦棠歡迎 歡迎行政院主計處專門委員 廖玉琳歡迎經濟部國營事業管理師 副司長 劉啟孝商業發展署副組長 熊立恆好 歡迎"},{"start":2036.364,"end":2061.32,"text":"商業發展署產業發展署科長李安和李安和 對不起李安和 OK中小及新創企業署科長張志豪財政部護稅署專門委員林美惠好 歡迎 謝謝國庫署集合何山盈"},{"start":2062.662,"end":2073.392,"text":"好 歡迎 法務部法治司檢察官李子綺遊說者出席名單代表全國教育產業總工會理事長李碩傑要不要來"},{"start":2088.936,"end":2092.138,"text":"選國教師工會總聯合會執行長洪維斌台灣石油工會理事長陳嘉琳"},{"start":2118.231,"end":2145.441,"text":"好 謝謝台灣鐵路企業工會 理事長 童世哲好 歡迎 歡迎中華郵政工會 台北分會 理事長 陳育吟台灣電力產業工會 理事長 歐子明好 歡迎南亞電路板企業工會 理事長 孫守凱"},{"start":2151.304,"end":2156.505,"text":"資深社運人士 毛振飛中華民國國際機場工會聯合會秘書長 杜光瑜"},{"start":2173.482,"end":2180.593,"text":"好 我們接續請勞動部次長來報告 時間5分鐘我跟大家報告 今天時間要嚴格控管"},{"start":2186.455,"end":2212.52,"text":"主席各位委員各位參與公聽會的先進感謝委員會的邀請由我來向各位報告公衛法議題相關的修法的狀況為了使公衛組織能夠根據代表性案凝聚力發揮集體協商的功能有效建構集體勞資關係正常發展的目標在100年5月1號修正實行的公衛法已經把公衛由許可制成立由許可制改為登記制"},{"start":2213.38,"end":2238.713,"text":"而且開放相關產業勞工可以直接籌組或加入跨越場域事業單位的縱向型類型產業別的工會組織希望能夠透過勞工團結權的保護、工會會務自主化以及工會運作民主化的工會發展原則達到保障勞工團結權的目標勞動部歷年來都把提升勞工組織率列為重要的政策之一"},{"start":2239.193,"end":2256.315,"text":"也積極在協助勞工籌組工會訂定各項輔導勞工籌組工會推動工會會務正常發展的措施對於勞工在組織工會前、中、後也提供各式各樣的補助和獎勵措施協助提升工會幹部的職能維持工會會務的正常運作"},{"start":2258.357,"end":2279.276,"text":"依照憲法法庭112年憲判之第7號針對公衛法適應細則第二條第一項及第二項有關同意廠廠相關規定的判決前概規定的目的是為了使各地勞工、行政主管機關在受理轄區內的廠廠工會辦理登記時有所依循"},{"start":2280.357,"end":2306.662,"text":"而且要求得組織廠廠企業工會的廠廠要具備經營功能以利其工會與僱主之間對等的協商進而簽訂團體協約提升會員的勞動權益也要求要設立工會必須要有一定的獨立性這是為了避免小規模的工會淋漓多數工會無行使團體協商的實力或雖然可以行使法定四項同意權與工會幹部價等"},{"start":2308.562,"end":2331.296,"text":"權力的主體過多會導致牢牢相爭的結果所以如果沒有給予合理的限制反而會有害於勞工團結勞工權益保護以及實施的目的因此呢這個憲法法庭的判決是認為工會應該還是要具備一定的獨立性這樣一個限制沒有抵觸憲法20條的比例原則可是他還認為這樣一個重要的事項應該"},{"start":2333.177,"end":2356.653,"text":"要有憲法法律保留原則的適用所以做了警告性的裁判於判決後屆滿兩年會施其效力勞動部為了符合憲法法庭判決的意旨以及所揭示的法律保留原則明確在工會法中對廠廠的定義案要見來加以明確規範以保障勞工的團結權所以本次的修正"},{"start":2357.253,"end":2375.613,"text":"只是將公衛法適應細則有關廠廠的定義和要件提升位階在母法公衛法裡面來配合增訂另外也配合相關的營業登記規則修正為稅級登記規則調整相關的文字以使各法規的用語能夠均於一致"},{"start":2376.974,"end":2402.263,"text":"此外呢也對於單獨設計會計單位設置會計單位的要件針對專業專責的會計人員這邊做了一些文字上的處理讓他可以更明確也稍微有具有一點彈性本次工會法第六條之一第七條的修正因為涉及到廠廠勞工成立工會的重要事項我們希望透過這樣一支的公聽會來聆聽各位委員先進的意見達到明確廠廠工會籌組要件並保障勞工"},{"start":2406.985,"end":2432.657,"text":"團結前的目標以上報告進行指教祝福主席委員還有各位先進身體健康萬事如意謝謝因為這個是我們立法院正式舉辦的公聽會所以本次會議部會局寫者專家所提供之相關書面資料經會列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2436.874,"end":2459.868,"text":"那一位人員發言前我們先告第一學者專家遊說代表及本院委員每人發言四分鐘第五分鐘後就給你關麥克風了對不起為簡報方便第二個學者專家及遊說代表發言請至主席台右邊發言台"},{"start":2460.99,"end":2487.012,"text":"原則上由學者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員如果要發言已經來主席台前面登記齁那第四個學者專家及委員發言完畢後接著請遊說代表依簽到順序發言之後再請行政機關做整體的回應那我們原則上就十點半休息十分鐘好"},{"start":2488.686,"end":2498.735,"text":"我們現在就開始了我們補充介紹臺灣電力公司臺東區營業處企業工會理事長謝雪霞我們現在請第一位臺灣電力工會理事長吳友斌發言謝謝"},{"start":2523.505,"end":2526.191,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進各位"},{"start":2527.406,"end":2553.462,"text":"理事先生大家好那謝謝貴文會的邀請召開工會法修法及產產工會設立的遷移問題公聽會台灣電力工會就工會實務疫情層面及影響提出說明進行各位委員以先進不吝指教那大概有提出六點的一個說明那本會對於修法相關內容之意見陳述第一個"},{"start":2554.883,"end":2575.097,"text":"廠長定義應該要很明確不宜各自解讀或設立條件的不公平因為廠長細指獨自是經營部冊還是單獨登記公司登記商業登記或稅籍登記是營業單位恐因解讀而造成地方主管機關審核之困難"},{"start":2577.199,"end":2600.825,"text":"那第二形成復甦工會後是否強制加入造成勞工負擔及權益的一個爭議依據工會法第七條的一個規定勞工應加入企業工會在一致性的體制之企業中形成如形成復甦工會等個別勞工經已加入那勞工勢必造成"},{"start":2602.182,"end":2615.307,"text":"一些負擔若則依加入是我有違公衛法第七條的規定且不同公衛團體協商的勞動條件是否適用於同一團體內的勞工恐將產生不必要的勞資爭議"},{"start":2617.079,"end":2637.909,"text":"那第三復甦公會亦導致意見分歧更難以雇主協商大家都知道過往的案例之所以會有復甦公會的產生無非是公會間的利益不一致而且所謂的協商必定是勞方形成一定的共識才有可能向雇主進行協商談判因此"},{"start":2639.732,"end":2647.371,"text":"勉強讓附屬公衛湊在一起和同一僱主協商反而是橫生枝節使得協商根本無法進行"},{"start":2648.513,"end":2669.073,"text":"第四點法定事項協商前難以認定衍生少數人代表多數人之餘力事業單位有廠長工會者有關工作時間休息休假等權益應經廠長工會同意若按現行法規規定30個人以上的連署即可成立工會"},{"start":2670.074,"end":2684.378,"text":"若再加上放寬廠廠的標準 未來廠廠工會成員組織的代表性也不足於企業工會恐造成少數人決定多數人之歉意有違比例原則不利單位勞資關係的發展第五點 複數工會亦導致"},{"start":2691.055,"end":2719.229,"text":"勞資溝通低能效能的一個低下影響員工權益在政府大力推動下也有不少企業以及對應的企業工會簽訂團體協約並即提供會務架及會務辦理所需的一個設施若將廠廠定義放寬是將導致行政資源浪費嚴重影響勞資溝通之效能造成勞資關係硬座之自愛"},{"start":2720.782,"end":2741.247,"text":"公衛法施行細則第二條雖抵觸憲法保留原則 違內容並無不當那憲法法庭的112年判決公衛法施行細則第二條第一項第二項規定違憲之理由是違反法律保留原則並非認定現有的條文有何不當"},{"start":2742.347,"end":2763.755,"text":"原將現有公衛法施行細則第二條第一項第二項規定提升到法例未接即可以解決違憲問題那國勞核心公約基準是由勞資政三方共同參與透過協商形成所謂的共識各國都在其憲法上承認勞工之勞動三權即團結權協商權正義權其中又以團結權為保障協商權正義權之基礎"},{"start":2770.457,"end":2799.05,"text":"勞工為有團結權受到充分保障才得以組織強而有力的勞工團體以雇主進行協商或爭議行為那我國已從過去的廠廠為主的中小企業發展為大型公司集團事業甚至跨國公司的形態國內法令應促進並引進勞工團體隨著事業單位逐漸走向大型化也朝向大型公會發展若企業"},{"start":2800.45,"end":2819.08,"text":"內部小公衛林立牢牢相爭更行激烈美其民結社自由那實質是讓勞工難以行使團結權弱化勞工團結力量非公衛法立法的目的結社自由必須建立在一個落實團結權的基礎上我們都深知"},{"start":2820.593,"end":2843.145,"text":"團結的力量勞工沒有了團結前的意識一味追求自由解釋團體形同一盤散沙在不斷的裂解破碎化政府再多的工會安全保障對於工會組織的長遠發展及提升來說將是必帶的以上報告進行主好謝謝我們謝謝吳理事長那我再介紹"},{"start":2850.095,"end":2867.482,"text":"來賓 高雄市獨立總工會理事長王慶紅好 歡迎 歡迎好那繼續我們請陳偉雲台南市交易產業工會理事長花言"},{"start":2879.81,"end":2907.559,"text":"好主席各位委員還有各位在場的先進大家早安大家好我是台南市教育產業工會的理事長陳偉雲陳老師那今天來參加工會法修法以及廠廠工會設立權益的這個制度的公聽會那有這個機會來跟大家報告一下教師組工會以及教師成立工會之後在教育現場上會遇到的一些問題跟現狀所以我們希望說也讓各位委員聽聽看我們的一些困境然後在這次修法上也有辦法把"},{"start":2908.319,"end":2930.746,"text":"跟教師工會有關的一些法條也列進去那以下是我的報告那因為時間有限所以我想先講結論針對這次工會法的修法我們認為以現行的工會法對於老師結社自由跟團結權這個部分其實有很多的限制那我們認為在這個部分已經違反了國際勞工組織公約的一個第87條以及第89條的公約精神"},{"start":2931.286,"end":2953.536,"text":"影響到老師的一些團結權以及結社自由的一些權利所以我們認為在這次的修法在教師公會裡監事跟幹部應該要有一個合理合法的一個會務價因此我們很建議希望能夠新增在現行的法令當中能夠新增第36條之一也就是把老師的會務價的部分可以落在裡面然後落實公會價會務公價跟團結權的部分讓勞資雙方可以有一個和諧的關係"},{"start":2959.946,"end":2987.669,"text":"那以下我就跟大家報告一下在教師工會的惠物價這個部分在運作上可能會有什麼樣的問題我們知道工會在一百年成立之後修法之後對不起老師的部分可以依工會法第四條主工會在勞工的部分就可以依照他們相關權益組織跟加入工會那老師也在一百年之後開始成立了工會所以在一百年之後各縣是陸陸續續成立了產業工會跟職業工會因此老師在加入工會這件事情上"},{"start":2988.129,"end":2996.598,"text":"在所有老師的觀念裡面是已經都可以充分的理解只是說在成立工會之後還是會面臨到很多現實運作上的一些困難"},{"start":2998.717,"end":3024.02,"text":"那在第六條裡面的確有寫到老師的工會的類型在老師的部分因為受限於當時候法令的一些限制以及種種的關係所以老師只能組的是產業工會以及職業工會也就是說我們在處理的是整個權限或者是權勢的一些問題也就是不能只我們沒有在學校裡面成立所謂的企業工會因此我們現在的產業工會跟職業工會都是權勢性或權限性的"},{"start":3025.56,"end":3044.057,"text":"那以職業工會以工會來講我們知道工會法只要30個人就可以有成立工會那在各縣市裡面的工會裡面我會發現如果以台灣整個22個縣市來看公立學校只看公立學校就會發現我們的專案老師是少著1000人以下"},{"start":3044.798,"end":3066.136,"text":"多的話可能到一萬一千人到一萬人以上換句話說每個工會教室工會的會員人數其實是非常非常的多的可能幾百人到上萬人但是這樣子的一個工會的一個規模卻沒有辦法有一個合理合法的會務價因此我們認為在這一次的修法裡面必須把這個老師的會務價合理合法的"},{"start":3066.676,"end":3084.334,"text":"列進去那我們都知道其實現在以我們台南市來講好了我們在101年就已經跟教育局簽訂了所謂的團體協約可是這個團體協約卻因為當時市府的關係一直躺在市府裡面那這幾年來我們跟學校的做法都是用協商的"},{"start":3084.554,"end":3103.503,"text":"可是協商之後卻可能受限於教育主管機關教育局或者是某些特定的一些名代還會把校長叫到議會去做質詢問說為什麼可以有會務架凸顯這個會務架在縣市政府在運作上可能多少會遇到一些困難因此我們很希望在這次的修法裡面可以明定把教師公會裡監視的會務架"},{"start":3105.504,"end":3120.087,"text":"明定在條文裡面因此我們強烈建議說能夠在這次的修法裡面增列了第36條之一那至於細節部分因為這個已經陳列在大家的手冊那個資料上面所以我們就不再一一的追溯以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳理事長那繼續我們請陳昭之6號委員歡迎"},{"start":3138.251,"end":3153.357,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛勞動部也是引用這個112年的憲判制第7號判決那我也要引用這一個判決只是好像看起來不同的角度大家有各自解讀那這個判決當初做出了公會法實行細則第二條第一項跟第二項"},{"start":3157.438,"end":3179.504,"text":"是違憲的那憲法法庭雖然他只說違反的是這個法律保留原則他避開了他迴避了這個違反比例原則這個部分但這個部分我認為是憲法法庭自己要去承擔的但是我必須要說當我看到這一次行政院送工會法第六條之一的修正草案到立法院來我覺得我等一下可以說為什麼我覺得很荒唐"},{"start":3182.825,"end":3197.268,"text":"那這個政府還重視還正視勞工的人權嗎那在這個憲法法庭判決當中所附上的監察院國家人權委員會的建立報告清楚的寫著勞動部的工會法實行細則對於廠廠工會的要求包括獨立的人事預算跟會計等要件與國際勞工組織第87號第98號公約保障勞工專有的這個結社自由的權利是不符合的"},{"start":3212.811,"end":3219.379,"text":"而且會造成勞工受到政府或雇主不當的限制很遺憾結果這一次行政院修法還是提出一個違背國家人權委員會鑑識報告的結果這就是我為什麼說我看到這個版本實在覺得是荒唐荒謬的那另外在憲法法庭判決當中"},{"start":3232.495,"end":3248.267,"text":"有許多大法官其實對於這個最後做出的這樣的判決他沒有處理所謂的這個違反比例原則的部分還是有大法官提出不同的意見那行政院級勞動部應該要請你們是不是要仔細去讀一下其中蔡總統大法官的不同意見書"},{"start":3249.708,"end":3264.64,"text":"蔡大法官他對於這個勞動部要求廠廠工會要有獨立的人事預算跟會計這個要件等等他認為是違反比例原則的他提到很多理由有很具體的理由例如勞動部所做的限制要件在手段跟目的上"},{"start":3265.501,"end":3269.984,"text":"有不當的關聯 廠長工會不應該被綁在公司的組織架構上那麼廠長所具備的這個獨立性 應該具備的獨立性跟廠長企業公會團體協商權 正義權這個漸漸的落實是無關的那他也提出其實國外的這個立法的例子例如日本 鄰近的日本他們對於工會組成的條件是相當寬鬆的"},{"start":3289.175,"end":3306.169,"text":"但是並沒有發生並沒有發生牢牢相爭的問題所以蔡大法官認為行政機關不應該對廠廠企業工會的這個成立額外增加技術性的限制這是不對的那蔡大法官也預判預測到如果立法機關未來直接"},{"start":3306.869,"end":3321.285,"text":"把施行記者裡面的相關這個規定搬到母法施行記者搬到母法上去那會有兩個效應第一個就是背離公衛法在2000年制定的修法的這個意旨第二個會嚴重打壓公衛制度在我國的發展"},{"start":3322.126,"end":3337.555,"text":"那結果行政院竟然就這樣做了把這個有疑慮的條文直接從施行記者搬到這個母法去交差了事難道要立法院要變成這個蔡大法官口中所謂的不能夠認清規定危害公會獨立性的立法機關嗎所以我呼籲行政院要懸崖勒馬把這個離譜的這個修法草案撤回去否則我覺得台灣的勞工人權現在已經很多勞權的問題有爭議了那再一次會把勞工的人權再次被政府糟蹋了好謝謝"},{"start":3356.114,"end":3373.069,"text":"謝謝,謝謝趙志偉那我們介紹國立台北大學法律學院院長侯越宏院長好,歡迎歡迎那我們再介紹全國教育產業總工會理事長林碩傑歡迎歡迎"},{"start":3382.834,"end":3402.895,"text":"來接續接著我們請中鋼股民有限公司企業工會常務理事楊以濟常務理事主席各位委員各位學者專家各位先生各位女士大家早安大家好"},{"start":3403.888,"end":3425.962,"text":"我是中央公司企業工會常務理事楊以濟今天很榮幸來參加這個工會法修法及長壤工會的設立的權益制度來公聽會工會法第一條為促進勞工團結提升勞工地位及改善勞工生活就制定了本法但立法的宗旨就在促進勞工的團結"},{"start":3427.217,"end":3443.554,"text":"勞工集結30人就可以任意的結社,將導致勞犬的分散而弱化。訪談勞工團結與提升勞工的地位。公衛組織非一般的人民團體,它是有公衛法、團體協議法、勞資正義處理法等集體勞動法賦予的特定權利的特定團體。"},{"start":3449.921,"end":3463.559,"text":"那新工會法自民國一百年上入後互數企業工會以少數的群眾團體在小型工會的出現的模式如果存在多年仍是維持創會的規格"},{"start":3465.561,"end":3482.617,"text":"甚至人數有略減即表示耕耘多年以後人無法獲得勞工的認同這樣的工會能享受被法律保障與權利能得享有與多數勞工團結合一的工會"},{"start":3483.397,"end":3507.268,"text":"有這個貧企貧弱的一個權利這樣不禁讓我們的勞動法令勞工團結還是意圖消滅我們的團結之勞工組織這個有待商議根據目前工會組織的亂象我大概有提出三個問題點那公務委員及各位與會學者慘左右第一個問題點就是從業人員"},{"start":3510.462,"end":3526.295,"text":"個人角度來看如果要加入哪個企業公會才會有保障公務法第7條依前條第一項第一款組織是企業公會其勞工應加入公會這勢必是要加入公會但複數公會來講我們的"},{"start":3529.739,"end":3553.246,"text":"所有的組織如果A集團有嘉義秉丁等四個交叉持股互控的一個存儲關係四家公司排列組合以後又有多少的關係企業公會那每家公會都有協商權與爭議權那麼原始最大規模的公會還有少數不滿的主流自備另起爐灶"},{"start":3554.488,"end":3579.42,"text":"那三思人就可以成立一個企業工會那豈不弱化了原本最大規模的工會這就是現在工會的亂象的實況那企業勞工也面臨到底要加入哪個工會哪個工會以後又要交多筆的工會的一個會會那如果又創立許多新的廠長工會更加劇的問題的惡化"},{"start":3582.421,"end":3611.553,"text":"那問題二就是小型工會坐地喊價要求協商大型工會之合理性情何以堪這個小型工會就是壓著他有協商權那跟我們資方去爭取勞工的權益那大型工會就會被他壓著沒辦法去主張自己的權益而有一些疑問點的時候資方又沒有辦法答應那第三點不良人士寄予會務工價要求雇主"},{"start":3612.213,"end":3636.497,"text":"中立義務之濫送公會法46條賦予企業公會理事長的班日或全日其他理事每月有50小時的一個會務假如果這樣的話將近有12席的理監事那三分之一的工作日不用提供勞務這樣是否會造成公司營運成本的增加我在這邊不好意思 報告完畢"},{"start":3644.683,"end":3671.133,"text":"那個我在這邊強調 護宿公會的增加是讓我們的團結群的弱化一家公司有護宿公會 而且他是沒有會員沒有成長的情況下 如何去經營這個公會他們在會務價的上面 就是為了覬覦這個會務價而產生了一些的不法的事故出現 所以我是覺得"},{"start":3672.102,"end":3677.504,"text":"在複數工會的團結權方面我們是有待商議以上報告 謝謝謝謝楊常務理事我再報告一下就是我們講四分鐘會響鈴響鈴之後可以再講一分鐘一分鐘後就會關麥克風我們就照這樣亂來 接續我們請台灣高等教育產業工會研究員陳柏謙 歡迎"},{"start":3705.544,"end":3729.36,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進我是台灣高雄教育財源公會的研究員陳柏謙接下來因為我寫了講稿可能就會照這個講稿來闡述我今天的相關論點我想要講的是我們今天之所以在這邊討論公會法修法其實大家都蠻清楚的起因就是112年憲法法庭第七號的判決這個判決它認定公會法適應細則裡面對常常公會的一個定義規範"},{"start":3730.898,"end":3736.571,"text":"的一個相關限制違反了法律保留原則那憲法法庭之所以有這個判決呢要再回到是"},{"start":3737.355,"end":3763.5,"text":"追溯到這個2014年到2017年那有若干的這個泛國工藝世界員工他試圖依據工會法成立廠廠工會的時候可是呢在那個時間點遭到中央主管機關沉積就是勞動部這個沉積的撤銷他地方主管地方機關給的這個所謂的成立的核准那事實上我們我覺得我們比較需要回顧跟確認的是齁其實在民國99年工會法修法之前不管是工會法還是工會法施行系則對廠廠工會是沒有定義跟規範的"},{"start":3764.58,"end":3780.337,"text":"那有趣的是其實在99年公民法修法後勞動部在100年和103年分別用適應細則的方式兩度限縮了常常工會成立的條件但重點的是其實我們回去看民國99年公民法修法的時候啊對常常工會有關的立法修法的這個理由說明"},{"start":3781.545,"end":3809.226,"text":"當中是這樣白紙黑字寫的現行以廠長為組織的工會仍得維持歸納為企業工會換句話說雖然沒有直接講明但當時候的立法考量並沒有 我再講一次並沒有意圖更動或進一步限縮廠長工會的組成與條件所以換句話說在100年跟103年勞動部兩次用信息的限縮這其實完全來自於行政機關的一個主觀的意願而非當時候的一個立法議職曾經討論過的部分"},{"start":3811.067,"end":3825.599,"text":"但是勞工部我這邊講勞工部在100年跟103年分別大幅度修正實行細則連續兩次以最大限度限縮勞工得以組成倡議公會的一個空間跟權力然後就是112年憲法第7號判決的這個身體員工會因為成立核准遭到勞工部"},{"start":3826.3,"end":3851.461,"text":"以這個需要嚴格線索條件而撤銷的這樣一個爭議那也就是因為這個112年憲法法庭認定私營系的規範常常工會的這樣的一個定義規範違反法律保留原則所以我們今天才會在這邊所以勞動部才會提出了所謂的把本來在私營系的部分修到工會法裡面那我覺得比較讓人家啼笑皆非的是勞動部在修法說明裡面表示就是在他送出去的書面說明包括剛剛勞動部的官員在發言"},{"start":3853.923,"end":3875.223,"text":"裡面都一樣以這個作為一個所謂的主要理由那這個論證是這樣說明的他說為了避免在同一個企業下規模小規模工會過多造成碎裂化並這個削弱團結協商的力量所以呢他訂定了這一個相關的比較嚴格對這樣工會的這樣的一個成立做了一個很嚴格的一個線索"},{"start":3877.188,"end":3895.631,"text":"換句話說在勞動部的這個立法說明裡面呢彷彿他去做這個限縮是為了勞工好是為了讓勞工的團結權可以獲得更大的實施但實際上事實上是這樣子嗎我們其實都心知肚明這間限縮常常工會的理由呢包括在2014年陸續撤銷的常常工會的核准呢其實還是來自於原來大型犯國"},{"start":3896.552,"end":3915.98,"text":"公會的這樣的一個壓力至於有沒有來自於更高行政部門的壓力我們無從得知啊事實上能否實質上強化勞工團結的協商力量我強調一次在彼者將近二十在就是他本人將近二十年的公會工作經驗來看從來都不是勞動部修法或政策考量的一個重點從來都不是我再講一次"},{"start":3917.396,"end":3943.293,"text":"我講一個發生在60年前的歷史故事1964年 台塑公司在宜蘭東山投資成立了一間叫東山電視廠股份有限公司當時候的員工 這很久很久以前 還在戒嚴時期自發成立了籌組的廠廠工會台塑公司在恐嚇發起人並帶頭解僱了這個組織工人的幹部之後直接解散了這家公司 然後把他併入了台塑公司然後以這個為理由 主張員工不得成立廠廠工會"},{"start":3944.173,"end":3968.271,"text":"同一個時間資方在可以控制員工成立的台塑公會之後呢要求電視廠的員工要加入公會原來資方的這個公會然後以分會的方式獨立運作事實上其實依當時候的法律規定即便東山電視廠被併入了台塑公司它還是一樣可以成立一場工會但非常非常有趣的是在網友現在台塑公司的要求按要求底下"},{"start":3969.472,"end":3992.899,"text":"東山電視廠連廠廠工會都不能夠成立它只能夠用分會的方式成立在依附在資方控制的黃色工會底下的分會方式這個例子我真的要講的是說在歷史上絕大部分時刻政府主管機關對工會籌組的一個範圍跟這個條件的解釋跟立場一向都和促進勞工實質團結獨立結社有效行使勞動三權沒有任何關聯甚至是相反的"},{"start":3993.598,"end":4016.643,"text":"好 所以這次修法的考量 背後的這樣的考量我認為一樣是同樣的基於同樣的道理啦那其實剛剛已經有人講這個國家安全委員會在111年的建立報告裡面其實就已經講得很清楚了如果依照目前現在的一個線索條件裡面呢等於把能不能成立廠長工會的所有的主導權直接交由之方好 那難道這不才是弱化勞工團結的一個"},{"start":4017.438,"end":4043.386,"text":"跟這個團結權跟協商權的一個最重要最重要最重要的影響嗎好最後我花一點時間講我想強調是勞動部今天如果要對常常工會做出最大限度限縮的修法呢真的不要再拿所謂考量到勞工團結和協商權作為遮羞布大家都很清楚這不是背後真正的理由那我很希望勞動部等一下可以回應修法以後還會有多少常常工會可以成立的可能性跟空間有或沒有我認為是沒有的如果答案是否定的"},{"start":4043.806,"end":4060.321,"text":"那我直接建議勞動部乾脆一點直接在修法裡面就把這個常常工會或甚至我們在講企業工會本身就在弱化因為他就是把員工分在一個企業裡面那如果照勞動部的理解裡面是不是連企業工會都要把它修正都要把它撤銷掉呢好 我的發言到此結束 謝謝謝謝 謝謝陳教授那接下來我們請陳慶輝委員歡迎"},{"start":4075.622,"end":4104.129,"text":"主席各位官員各位委員還有今天的學者專家以及我們許許多公會的代表大家早安我是陳勤惠委員但我也只是一個婦產科醫師但我今天會在這邊發言是因為想協助我們廠廠的勞工們發聲不是因為我代表什麼大財團大的營業事業也不是主管法令可以施行的行政官員不過我的職責很簡單因為許多人來跟我陳情就是替民意來做發聲所以我站在基層的"},{"start":4105.589,"end":4122.18,"text":"廠長勞工立場來講一個很簡單但是很關鍵的事那就是希望基層的勞工要有團結的自由組工會的權利不要再被無理的法條卡住這次勞動部提出了工會法的修法草案事實上呢這個是把一個高度爭議的法律內容"},{"start":4122.7,"end":4146.817,"text":"因為這是原本就違憲違反國際勞工公約的行政規定再從施行細則升級到正式法律這不是修法是把毒藥變成一個處方簽這個就是法律的修惡啊所以我說這個工會法施行細則第二條第一項這個惡法它規定要成立廠廠工會就必須符合三個條件人事獨立 預算獨立 會計獨立講白話一點這個單位"},{"start":4150.72,"end":4175.461,"text":"可以自己來決定誰來誰走自己編預算還要設帳記帳計算盈虧但是想大的盈利事業底下的基層廠廠怎麼可能可以符合以上這些規定所以我是想問說台灣有哪一些工廠哪一些基層單位有這種權限這不是在限制我們工會成立而是在設定讓大家連這個門基本的進入門檻都沒有"},{"start":4179.164,"end":4203.179,"text":"所以回想起之前這個華航修護廠或者是漢翔航空沙路廠他們的勞工行使自己的權力組成工會但就是因為不符合人事獨立 預算獨立還有會計獨立這三個條件被勞動部撤銷講明白一點 他們就是一群在第一線非常辛苦努力工作的基層勞工想要團結 想要保護自己"},{"start":4205.02,"end":4218.398,"text":"可是換來的呢卻是被政府蓋章說不合法勞動部來當我們基層勞工勞權的兇手這個早就有以前這些前科了所以憲法法庭判決這條違反法律保留原則要在兩年內廢止"},{"start":4222.703,"end":4245.671,"text":"結果我們勞動部不但沒有費還變本加厲要直接把它寫進工會法第六條之一這根本就是打著修法的名義繼續來打壓勞工所以我是想問我們基層勞工想組工會是破壞公共秩序嗎是威脅到國家安全嗎還是侵犯了誰的自由嗎如果都不是為什麼要設這麼多不合理的門檻這麼做很明顯剛剛也有學者講到了不只是違反聯合國兩公約"},{"start":4252.333,"end":4275.163,"text":"也違反了ILO第87號第98號的公約更現實的是根據統計我們現在台灣的工會組織率在下降中從8%繼續往下掉所以勞動部早就應該要檢討如何讓勞工更有組織的力量結果我們卻是反其道而行把這條路堵得更死"},{"start":4275.823,"end":4291.143,"text":"這也難怪基層勞工在分享一個比喻這不是幫助勞工是把勞工的嘴巴捆起來還說是幫他們戴口罩對比即將到來的五一勞動節真的是讓人感到相當的悲哀各位我們現在知道"},{"start":4291.704,"end":4312.806,"text":"許許多多各行各業勞動條件非常的不容易工時長壓力大過勞的問題嚴重當然包括我們基層的醫護人員大家想要有個公會做後盾是天經地義的事情而民主法治的政府最應該做的事情不是幫大家設門檻設障礙是把這些不合理的制度來拆掉所以"},{"start":4313.326,"end":4324.094,"text":"今天最後就是想懇請各位官員委員關心勞工的朋友千萬不要把這條二法變成正式的法條這不是單純的技術問題這是攸關每一個基層勞工的團結權發聲權還有生存權謝謝大家"},{"start":4361.363,"end":4389.484,"text":"主席還有我們各位官員各位委員各位與會的學者專家們以及列席的同仁以及我們這些記者們大家早今天我們在討論這個議題就是要勞動部要修法這個拱惠法的部分大家很清楚那剛剛我們幾位的代表都講到團結當然各自有正反兩面的一個看法那在這邊我要講"},{"start":4391.365,"end":4416.946,"text":"其實這個修法就是針對憲法法庭說它違憲而造成違背保留原則所以在這個判決上做出這樣一個判決但是大家想一下最高行政法院為什麼每次的判決都是正確的這是第一個當然憲法法庭的一個判決是因為它違反它是因為在施行細則裡面是命令"},{"start":4418.24,"end":4433.577,"text":"而不是法令所以這次勞動部修法把它提升到要在工會法裡面正式納入成為那個法令那我要講大家都在講廠廠工會的成立在一家企業裡面如果再去成立廠廠工會你認為是對的嗎"},{"start":4436.656,"end":4463.254,"text":"如果這一家企業沒有成立工會而去成立廠廠工會那是保障我們人民的那個結社自由是對的但是在一家單一企業裡面已經有工會了工會裡面你每個會員每個勞工都是可以參加工會的是有會籍的然後呢你參加工會你在各個地方都可以有結社的自由可以表達你的意願"},{"start":4465.265,"end":4471.022,"text":"絕對沒有問題但是工會就是我們政治的小小板工會都是一樣透過選舉"},{"start":4473.168,"end":4498.963,"text":"透過選舉來選出工會的幹部今天這個少數的工會也就是我們在講的富庶工會他就是因為選舉失誤所以他要成立另一家工會來做一個那個權力的鬥爭這個我們在現在台灣看得很清楚而且也讓資方看到你工會的不團結我們所謂的勞工三權啊協商團結正義"},{"start":4502.25,"end":4526.428,"text":"在團結前你就被破壞掉了互輸公衛的這個成立就是破壞團結權所以在這邊我來舉個例台灣今天的我們是一個民主自由的國家政黨林立今天一個政黨成立他選舉總統選舉市長他如果選輸他再去成立說我要畫哪個區域再來再做一次選舉是這樣嗎不是這樣欸"},{"start":4529.915,"end":4540.327,"text":"包括我們的委員今天主席我們是委員我們的委員是主席今天在委員區的選舉對手跟你競爭你有哪些區塊的選舉你是贏的今天但是在幾個鄉鎮裡面比如說有15個鄉鎮委員你贏了8個鄉鎮9個鄉鎮"},{"start":4549.997,"end":4576.025,"text":"六個鄉鎮選票未必贏他但是那個候選人他又去中選的時候以後要畫這個區域為選舉區域我要再來選一次這是對的嗎這絕對不對今天的互數公會少數公會就是這種現在的一個我們看得很清楚他的那個目標就是這個樣子所以成立少數公會美其言在爭取勞工的權益我舉例說包括現在的南山那個人壽"},{"start":4580.831,"end":4608.57,"text":"他南山企業工會有3600的員工然後在嘉義有一個小的那個南山工會現在資方啊 尹董事長就不跟大工會來談就去跟小工會談那你這樣是代表我們多數勞工的權益嗎也不對包括在我們國公營事業裡面現在的中華電信已經民營化了但是我們中華電信呢它本來是一家最大的企業工會"},{"start":4610.438,"end":4615.537,"text":"但是現在因為富士公會的誠意弱化中華電信的整個團結力量"},{"start":4617.897,"end":4644.935,"text":"這個我們都看得很清楚所以我現在要講的就是說今天這個法案我們的討論把它要修如為公會法我要請大家團結在一起而不是弱化勞工的那個團結力量把它弱化掉我講的是實際面我不講剛剛大家都在講我們針對公會法的修正怎麼樣我講的是實際面各位包括我們所有在座的學者專家都非常清楚"},{"start":4646.216,"end":4665.314,"text":"但在這個部分我要提出來就是說勞動部他也是長期以來在這個廠長工會規定的目的是要避免工會的一個分裂而且他長期的在那個要提升工會的組織力是讓沒有組成工會的這個"},{"start":4668.513,"end":4685.695,"text":"沒有讓組成工會的企業成立新的工會來保障勞工的權益所以這次的修法是符合法律的保留原則並明確廠長工會的規定以保障勞工的團結希望各界"},{"start":4686.676,"end":4713.591,"text":"真的是要這樣來看待這個法令的修正而不是為了少數的一個權益在那邊爭取你爭權奪利的一個目標以上我站在台灣石油公會的立場明確的要來跟大家做說明謝謝謝謝陳理事長那接續我們請台灣鐵路企業工會理事長童世哲發言"},{"start":4724.512,"end":4734.826,"text":"主席還有各位官員還有專家學者大家好我今天代表台灣體育企業公會來針對今天三個議題我們來做一個我們的論述這邊我們針對第一個議題我們來做一個論述就是"},{"start":4740.905,"end":4758.012,"text":"其實我們在行政院的這一個版本我們可以看到其實以台鐵工會的立場我們是支持有限制的設立全面開放廠廠工會可能會導致過於分散我們就以台鐵為例來講好了如果是以各個車站"},{"start":4760.272,"end":4784.557,"text":"成立所謂的獨立工會的話可能會出現數十個小型的工會各自提出不同的需求那這個會剝削台鐵企業工會作為整體代表的一個地位那如果有條件的前提狀況下來做一個成立的話可以平衡地方勞工的需求跟企業級層面的協商力量"},{"start":4785.666,"end":4809.114,"text":"那如果沒有限制的話台鐵我們以地區的區域性來說如果你以台北的員工來講他單就一個加班的議題在另外一個如果以花蓮的地區來講兩個不同地區他們的需求是不同的這樣子會導致企業工會很難以"},{"start":4811.535,"end":4832.35,"text":"統籌他們的訴求那如果有限制的話企業公會的同意可以去成立的話可以確保廠商公會訴求跟企業公會的協商方向是統一的在這個結論的話第一個議題我們做結論台鐵企業公會會支持有前提跟有條件限制的設立那我們針對第二個議題來第二個議題"},{"start":4842.17,"end":4860.858,"text":"修法廠長公會的定義主要是要納入這個母法取代原有模糊的焦點規定台鐵企業公會認定這個方向是在保障勞工結社自由也避免法律漏洞導致權益的濫用那如果修法為"},{"start":4862.725,"end":4890.31,"text":"明確規範廠廠工會部分員工可能濫用結社權設行小型的工會然後規避企業工會團體協商的機制我們做一個那個立案來說如果某廠廠員工不滿企業工會談判結果自行組工會與資方私下協商可能會損害到其他員工的權益"},{"start":4894.608,"end":4920.484,"text":"那所謂到企業的權益之後企業工會長期代表全體勞工與資方談判的地位應該受法律的保障那第二個議題的結論是我們台鐵工會支持行政院的版本也建立廠長工會去設立企業工會的同意確保企業工會勞權的一致性那最後"},{"start":4921.525,"end":4930.981,"text":"台鐵這邊的總結台鐵7月公開支持行政院版本第六條之一的修正草案在保障結社自由的同時透過明確"},{"start":4932.98,"end":4948.705,"text":"規範避免勞工的力度過於分上符合ILO公約及憲法法庭的意旨然而確保企業公會的團體勞動協商權不受影響那建議修法增訂廠長公會設立虛經企業公會的同意及規定"},{"start":4952.226,"end":4979.819,"text":"這不只能兼顧地方需求也能維護台鐵勞工整體團結談判利益避免實際運作中出現碎片化或資方分化的風險這樣的立場既尊重勞工的權益也符合所有企業工會長期以來作為勞資協商核心的角色直投工會深入討論與採納以上台鐵的報告 謝謝"},{"start":4985.266,"end":4989.608,"text":"謝謝 謝謝童理事長那繼續我們請麥一貞議員發言謝謝主席 親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":5007.441,"end":5025.57,"text":"今天很感谢大家白忙之中一起来讨论就工会法的第六条之一修法的议题提供以下的几个建议首先我们针对行政院版本草案子是否违法"},{"start":5026.61,"end":5030.551,"text":"結社自由與團結權我們必須回到憲法與國際人權法的基本原則根據國際勞工組織第87號與第98號的公約工人應有自由成立及加入自己選擇的工會之權利不得受任意限制我們我國112年的"},{"start":5055.778,"end":5081.808,"text":"宪判第七号判决明确指出过去工会法实行细则第二条第一二项的要求常常必须具有独立人士议算会计等要件并未经法律明确的收权及对结社自由构成重大的限制"},{"start":5083.048,"end":5086.531,"text":"違法憲法第23條法律保留的原則因此宣告違法並在2025年5月19號失效然而行政院版本修法仍繼續始終以組織結構限制勞工組織權的思維無異於章魚違憲的內容"},{"start":5109.585,"end":5126.703,"text":"由命令升格為法例恐章引發新一輪的違憲的爭議我們不能忽略此列限制早已造成時機的侵害以華航修護廠公案為例"},{"start":5129.426,"end":5147.185,"text":"該工會早於2015年經桃園縣政府核准成立卻遭企業總工會以不屈獨立預算與會計由提出申願經兩度的撤銷 三次的重審"},{"start":5148.906,"end":5158.828,"text":"長達八年人未能安穩存在最終透過憲法輸送才確認原規定違憲根據勞動部的資料自2014年在2021年的期間企業工會成立案件中被勞動主管機構撤回或撤銷比例高達28.6其中數位理由與不符獨立要件的有關"},{"start":5178.372,"end":5207.572,"text":"這個說明在現行的制度下勞工組織工會常因應組織設計而卡死形同由雇主決定你能不能有工會再談到是否限制同一個工會只能有一個廠工會以高科技產業為例例如我們台積電或台中中油台灣中油其中同事就跨各縣市跨科技管理"},{"start":5209.033,"end":5223.228,"text":"倉儲物流等不同的部門工作條件與勞資關係不同如果限制只有三個工會第一導致部分的廠工缺雜有效的代表也使工會內部"},{"start":5225.33,"end":5234.736,"text":"過於龐大無法稀釋反映到個別權利根據日本的經驗七月部一場的一個工會來通過聯合協議會協商統合勞方意見"},{"start":5240.78,"end":5261.32,"text":"不仅未达成的混乱反而强化了工会功能与工人参与率反观台湾2022年度全体劳工工会参与率剩余7.4%低于远低于OECD的国家平均16.4%制度"},{"start":5264.042,"end":5282.175,"text":"保障真是重要原因之一最后我们应重视国家人权委员会针对本案所提出的鉴定意见不得章制度设计合法性乍临于宪法保障"},{"start":5283.416,"end":5308.893,"text":"結設自由與勞工自主性因此本次修法因明定廠廠定義與勞工實際工作場所為核心不應再強調會計或預算的制度放寬縣市或不同的事業單位成立工會限制建議多層次工會協助架構促進勞資對話與工會自治"},{"start":5312.795,"end":5327.602,"text":"主席們還有我們各位專家還有我們政府希望這一次的修我們的修法會落實關於我們的違法的本質真正落實讓勞工有自主"},{"start":5329.123,"end":5344.365,"text":"組織有力的代表有效的協商才能保障勞工資方我們共同為我們台灣的經濟發展也讓大家有保障的工作有求助的管道以上謝謝"},{"start":5348.685,"end":5363.898,"text":"謝謝麥一貞委員 講得很好我們介紹貴賓 弘道法律事務所主持律師 蔡志揚我們接續請中華郵政公會台北分會理事長 陳育吟發言"},{"start":5385.251,"end":5399.898,"text":"主席 我們各位長官還有各位與會的先進大家早安我是中華郵政公會台北分會的理事長今天代表中華郵政公會來出席這個公聽會主要來表達一下我們中華郵政公會對這個議題的看法"},{"start":5402.819,"end":5423.588,"text":"有關於廠廠工會的設立本會的組織型態在目前的組織運作下我們本身在每個縣市都有一個分會的成立但是我們的分會成立主要還是依照以中華人證工會為企業工會的主體在運行所以說整個運作方面來看的話"},{"start":5424.85,"end":5440.933,"text":"基本上是不存在有勞工所謂的福利差別待遇的存在那麼我想依我們這個剛剛我聽這個鐵路工會的同理事長在說明同樣我們是交通部的事業單位所屬的工會"},{"start":5442.014,"end":5458.894,"text":"那它的組織形態跟我們或許會有所差別但我們現在所要強調就是說常常工會的設立假設入在這個法律裡面一個正式的行文形容劇文的條例的時候是不是會反而容易造成說我們工會員工"},{"start":5460.276,"end":5474.903,"text":"工會的分裂而造成員工的不團結這個現象來產生因為目前就我們中華郵政工會其實另外一個小工會叫做台灣郵政產業工會那麼它是在台南市政府這邊設立成立的"},{"start":5476.164,"end":5503.017,"text":"那麼他這個工會的人數幾百個人大概不到兩百個人左右但是喜歡以小搏大那我想爭取福利跟爭取權益都是工會的成員所主要要來做進行的一個責任跟他的工作但是有時候兩方意見分歧不同目標的時候反而讓事業單位造成一個無所適從甚至忽視視而不見"},{"start":5504.738,"end":5520.769,"text":"如果說把公衛的組織形態再分裂出去的話,我想對於以後勞權的爭議處理,還有權益的爭取,會非常的不好做,也可能公平性上也會有一個比較不足的地方。"},{"start":5521.877,"end":5539.915,"text":"假設我今天全國22個分會通通申請成為法人的時候那麼我們中華郵政公會這個企業公會主體有可能啦會瓦解掉為什麼因為每個人都有法人的智慧地位的時候他可以個別跟事業單位來做談判那麼相形之下事業單位"},{"start":5541.096,"end":5561.797,"text":"他對於這個本來是只針對一個工會來做一個協商那麼現在針對各全省22個單位來做協商的時候哪一個是對他有利哪一個對他不利我想很容易來判別那麼我們主商工會單一體是主要是對於會員的照顧比較直接的一個"},{"start":5562.958,"end":5581.443,"text":"一個利益啦如果說工會分開不同的那個組織型態來運作的話有可能因為個人的利益或者是一些不同區域的這個型態而來做個別的運作的時候"},{"start":5581.923,"end":5584.086,"text":"反而會削弱工會對事業單位的一個影響力跟團結的展現那是不是讓事業單位有這個可以從裡面去做一個個別分化的手段來進行也不可能"},{"start":5596.8,"end":5621.234,"text":"所以我們是希望能夠慎重的來考慮這個廠廠工會的這個制定能夠慎重讓我們所有的這個所有全體的勞工都能夠來享有應該有的福利跟權益而不要因為我們的這個工會的設立來造成反而是勞工的權益跟福利的一個損失跟喪失以上是中華政公會的表示 謝謝"},{"start":5624.414,"end":5650.379,"text":"好 謝謝陳理事長那接續我們請台灣電力產業工會理事長歐子明發言主席 各位委員 各位先生女士大家好我是台灣電力產業工會理事長歐子明"},{"start":5651.921,"end":5679.233,"text":"今天很榮幸受邀來參加我們立法院的公聽會有幾點意見來做發表第一點就是說依據監察院國家人權委員會有提到他出的鑑定意見書有提到就是說在各項國際公約裡面都有提到人民有機會接受的自由我們公會法第六條裡面提到就是說常常企業公會形態他有所謂的事業單位的企業公會還有所謂的常常的企業公會"},{"start":5681.708,"end":5703.507,"text":"這樣子的話就是說對於企業這兩個字的定義是採取相對廣義且具有一定彈性的解釋但是到了說工會法是因細則第二條他對於廠廠工會卻使用獨立人士預算會計等嚴苛條件來加以做限制這不僅是限縮勞工解釋的自由更是弱化廠廠工會設置的目的及破壞"},{"start":5705.109,"end":5716.031,"text":"廠廠工會這個型態的任務與功能另外就是說組織工會他的本意就是說要讓勞方的權限能夠跟資方的權限能夠比較對等那現在你如果說"},{"start":5717.719,"end":5743.974,"text":"能夠要用獨立人士跟預算會計來對廠長企業工會來做限制的話那就會造成說資方能夠去調整他的組織讓你變成沒有獨立人士跟獨立會計等於說很容易就能夠背革你廠長企業工會的成立那等於說變成你的勞工的工會的成立是控制在資方的手上這個對我們來說這個是完全不合理再來就是第二點"},{"start":5745.954,"end":5770.576,"text":"廠長工會的分身啦 我知道啦 就像剛剛有一些先進有提到就是說有一些公司他有所謂的分會的制度嘛但是就是說這些分會是以工會自治的理由來設立但是事前並沒有經過主管機關的審核事後也沒有辦法監督那這些分會的工會頭有可能就是因為他沒有法源依據來做監督嘛等於說他可以無限制的連任"},{"start":5771.317,"end":5782.212,"text":"那這樣子的話在無法監督的狀況底下就有可能會有一些違法亂紀的形式產生而且他長期在地方的勢力做大的話甚至連值班都拿他無可奈何"},{"start":5782.881,"end":5811.841,"text":"那這樣子的話就會變成說大工會底下他們可以自己用工會自治的理由去設立分會結果卻反手來限制廠廠企業工會的設立這怎麼會合理要嘛就是說你自己要讓廠廠企業工會能夠讓它法制化那麼就是說讓你的分會也能夠用廠廠企業工會的模式能夠來成立這樣子才有比較符合現行的規範而且你這樣子才能夠有法源依據來跟他做監督"},{"start":5814.813,"end":5821.729,"text":"那第三點就是說這次廠產公會的修法勞動部不要只當大型企業公會的遮羞部應該試圖"},{"start":5824.244,"end":5845.63,"text":"要修一個能夠符合勞工的法令也不要說表面主張團結實際上是在限制基層勞工的法令那團結不能夠只是說寒寒口號沒有實際作為因為實際上按照過往案例出來登高一呼說要團結的其實常常都是有話語權但是不願意傾聽基層聲音並務實推動改革的人"},{"start":5846.03,"end":5854.919,"text":"那如果真是為了團結就應該好好傾聽基層勞工的訴求多方溝通海拿百川我相信基層也一定能夠感受到主事者的善意的堆疊況且"},{"start":5858.971,"end":5875.564,"text":"團體 其他事業團體亦有成立廠廠工會並組成聯合會那這樣子也沒有產生說不團結的情況那如果說大工會只允許他們自己能夠設立分會反手來阻擋廠廠企業工會的成立相信絕對不會被基層的同仁所接受"},{"start":5876.184,"end":5904.085,"text":"那最後就是說提到廠廠工會也不要說限制一個縣市只能夠有一個廠廠的工會嘛因為你母公司的企業工會並不能夠完全如此的反映每個廠廠的實際運作的狀況啊那所以要能夠成立以各廠廠為本身為主體的工會才能夠切合勞工實際的需要 以上報告謝謝歐理事長那接下來我們請王振熙立委發言"},{"start":5919.81,"end":5935.14,"text":"首先非常謝謝主席還有衛王委員會召開今天的公聽會讓我們有機會來多聽聽各位勞工代表還有工會的先進的意見其實我們也知道依照國工會法現行的規定"},{"start":5936.081,"end":5957.509,"text":"我們目前的工會其實有分成企業工會產業工會還有職業工會等三種大類型可是我們也知道如果更細分的話那企業工會裡面還可以至少包括有企業工會廠廠工會關西企業工會跟金融集團的企業工會等等"},{"start":5958.489,"end":5986.342,"text":"這個工會類型那麼多我們也都了解這個不是問題的核心我們等一下會點出問題的核心在哪裡包括說這類型的這個不同的工會裡面到底它法律上的保障權利在哪裡這個才是我們所認知的這個核心的問題那以企業工會相較於產業跟職業工會來說的話我國目前其實在法律上對企業工會的保障是最多最強的"},{"start":5987.742,"end":6011.496,"text":"包括說企業工會獨有的權利有會務工價剛剛理事長有提到成立以後馬上就可以進行這個團體協約協商進行調整四項調整的權利各項勞基法的同意權陪同勞檢的權利還有很重要的就是在支付會裡面等相關的會議有保障的席次這些的核心"},{"start":6012.757,"end":6026.324,"text":"包括就是有剛剛所提到的誰有資格來請會務公價誰能有發動勞資爭議還有要求團體協商的權利誰有勞基法的同意權還有誰有各種法定會議的代表權"},{"start":6027.421,"end":6042.51,"text":"那今天我們這個廠廠工會的爭議除了工會組織的範圍跟籌組的要件的同時其實就是來自於這個法律上的權力要怎麼來分配舉例來說光是勞基法的同意權依照勞動部的含釋"},{"start":6044.271,"end":6072.291,"text":"廠廠工會就得有比企業工會有更優先的同意權那關係企業工會跟金融集團的控股工會就沒有勞基金法的同意權這個就是核心之所在在實務上各種協商的資格工價能不能申請還有各種法定會議席次要怎麼分配當然就更是各種爭議的來源所以其實在這次工會的修工會法的修法裡面當然勞動部"},{"start":6074.273,"end":6094.213,"text":"依據這個憲法法庭的判決會希望盡快處理將廠廠工會定義跟要件從私刑細則裡面把它提升到這個法律的位階可是在這個過程裡面期待今天我們的勞動部的長官需要說明清楚兩個核心的問題"},{"start":6095.094,"end":6114.242,"text":"第一個要如何提升工會組織率還有強化集體協商第二個部分各類型工會的法律保障權益要如何分配這是剛剛所提到的核心問題就是今天要麻煩我們勞動部出席的長官需要說明清楚的部分以上"},{"start":6123.021,"end":6132.486,"text":"謝謝王委員講得很清楚那繼續我們請南亞電路板企業工會理事長孫守凱發言"},{"start":6142.837,"end":6158.329,"text":"主席、各位委員還有各位工會先進,大家好我是南亞電路板企業工會理事長孫首凱剛剛很多工會先進講的其實都是公營企業可是你們想到民營企業像我南亞電路板我們是台塑集團的"},{"start":6160.233,"end":6175.155,"text":"公司本來我們台塑集團其實也很多工會都是廠廠工會不管南亞台塑台塑化台化甚至一些子公司都是各個廠的廠廠工會比如說南亞有工山廠林口廠景新廠"},{"start":6176.38,"end":6197.691,"text":"因為以前我們沒有所謂的公司的企業工會所以後面因為修法之後可以成立可是現在成立其實通常都沒有什麼作用通常還是真正的只有廠長工會他才有實際上跟公司不管是談判、協商、協調的功能"},{"start":6199.303,"end":6224.883,"text":"可是你看我為什麼是南亞電路板企業工會那是因為我們公司本來在景興廠後來在樹林廠開了一個樹林廠可是就是因為這些限制樹林廠沒辦法組廠廠工會所以變成要組公司的企業工會這個變成很奇怪的現象就是說我樹林廠的員工我要靠別人去"},{"start":6225.99,"end":6249.057,"text":"去組這個企業工會,這個企業工會會跟原本在景新廠的工會,其實這才會有牢牢相爭的問題如果你分開的話,就沒有這個問題,你各個廠廠工會你管理自己的會員、自己的員工,處理這些問題可是你弄一個企業工會,兩邊他都可以處理景新廠他也可以跟原本的景新廠工會"},{"start":6250.057,"end":6277.826,"text":"去處理問題反而變成會有一些紛爭如果理念不同的時候所以我還是希望那個廠廠公務還是能開放因為畢竟民營企業很多都是他每個廠他的性質不同因為他產品別不同可能他的管理制度就不同像有的電子產業跟一般傳產他的管理制度是不同的他的環境也都是不同的所以他只有"},{"start":6279.025,"end":6295.631,"text":"因為產品別這些都不同所以只有廠廠工會的地方的員工才能瞭解他們才能處理他廠廠發生員工發生的事情所以我還是建議說還是因為以前我們也沒有這些限制也沒有造成什麼消滅什麼團結圈"},{"start":6297.943,"end":6317.549,"text":"消滅協商權也沒有這些問題啊為什麼是之後成立新增的這個法之後才會有再有成立廠廠工會會發生這個問題以前沒有這個限制沒有這個問題啊我是代表民營企業一些廠廠希望成立廠廠工會能成立廠廠工會發言謝謝"},{"start":6322.522,"end":6332.523,"text":"謝謝孫理事長不敢看了 看完了好 我們接續邀請資深供應人士 毛振輝先生歡迎"},{"start":6334.561,"end":6355.087,"text":"主席各位來賓大家好我想我們站在這裡就其實很多事情要對著勞動部在講他在修法的過程中並沒有真正傾聽基層的聲音基層公會的那我自己從事公會運動三十幾年我看到太多的現象我就拿中華"},{"start":6356.007,"end":6374.942,"text":"航空的例子來講中華航空為什麼後來有空服員跳出來組織工會因為他沒有辦法在企業裡面組織工會可是最後的抗爭是因為上面這個工會被掌控住了被資方掌控住了幾乎被很多的利益掌控住了"},{"start":6375.947,"end":6390.163,"text":"他的理事長可以做到公司的副總利益的輸送最後是出賣的抵押更多的員工我組織過朝陽縣產業總工會可是有很多的工會會進來包含中華電信的分會進來"},{"start":6393.146,"end":6409.885,"text":"因為分會組我們在審核他的資格的時候他的資格其實是類似於工會法那樣的資格做那包含另外一個石油工會當時進來也是類似我們要審核他到底是不是類似於工會法那樣審核"},{"start":6410.746,"end":6422.516,"text":"電力工會有進來,分會有進來,我們拒絕他因為他完全沒有照工會法的選舉方式可是我們今天看到工會法在修法的過程中只是在幫國營事業繼續維護他們原有的權益"},{"start":6425.618,"end":6443.49,"text":"那我講的不客氣我從一路走來我看到國營工會有很多大型的國營工會幾乎像惡霸一樣他佔有很多地方的發言權但是他底下的員工發生事情的時候他找不到申訴的地方竟然會找到地方的產業總工會"},{"start":6446.229,"end":6461.879,"text":"甚至找到立委我想委員就知道了就是總工會已經沒有大型的總工會它已經變成一個集團的時候它不會寬駐到底下的時候拆裂它本來就是一個好事拆裂它才有競爭我想勞動部經常講說工會要有競爭才會有進步"},{"start":6466.522,"end":6493.893,"text":"分會裡面很多是沒有競爭能力的他自然就淘汰剛剛有講說人數不夠人數不夠他自然就淘汰了你的會員不會靠近他不會加入他所以工會多元化本來是工會發展的方向中鋼運通大家更清楚當時在做的過程中中鋼工會這到底是什麼態度勞動部更清楚幫著資方去打壓中鋼運通工會"},{"start":6495.808,"end":6511.837,"text":"這個是一個公會到最後變成看起來像惡霸一樣你打壓其他的人到時候最後申訴都沒有申訴其實因為我太老了老到不怕人家罵因為回去就只有一堆人繼續罵"},{"start":6513.246,"end":6530.573,"text":"因為我已經77歲了可是我在工會運動中看到太多的形態也看到更多的國營事業國營事業假不改革它分會假不改革的話它沒有錢就是它更多的基層工人會團結起來要求自己組工會這是實際上發生的"},{"start":6534.594,"end":6561.369,"text":"我相信台鐵長受過那個例子他就後來有台鐵的產工出來就是因為至於總會假如不改革不進步的話他必然會讓工會分裂掉分裂掉不是壞事起碼他有代表性嘛當他站出來的時候他假如不真正為基層的工人做事的話他必然事實上會被淘汰掉而且甚至台灣的工會組織力本來就是"},{"start":6562.881,"end":6577.666,"text":"非常非常低他們都在講國營公會怎樣怎樣我告訴各位一般私營的公會要請公價是非常非常困難的不然像我們這樣早期在公會裡面是用自己的特別價用自己的病價去過的"},{"start":6579.236,"end":6601.553,"text":"謝謝各位我們希望是公會長在修法中是真正讓公會能夠團結的不是像現在國民公會講的那種團結團結在他們手上然後底下的人是被左右被分裂的好 謝謝委員謝謝毛正輝先生那繼續我們請中華民國國際機場公會聯合會秘書長杜光宇發言"},{"start":6610.612,"end":6634.017,"text":"主席大家好我覺得前面講很多我自己就簡單補充一下這樣其實工會法事實上在一百年修法修成廠長工會必須有獨立人事會計但是我們看一百年以前我們來看這個國運事業事實上有菸酒工會聯合會台肥聯合會台菸聯合會自來水工會聯合會民營的有台樹工會聯合會"},{"start":6635.994,"end":6664.328,"text":"這些都是以廠廠工會為他們基層的構成然後以聯合會為主體來跟資方進行勞資的協商談判我請問這個有影響到勞工團結嗎其實沒有啊運作非常順暢啊那接下來我們來看齁其實在一百年以前那個中華電信跟台電也都有些地方的營業處有成立所謂的廠廠工會那這些廠廠工會的會員其實也都加入總會啊那有影響到團結嗎沒有啊"},{"start":6665.342,"end":6693.952,"text":"反而地方的這些桃園工會因為他們更貼近民意他們比較了解基層他們甚至可以補總會的不足雙方也很和諧也是大家合作桃園這邊有中立有中華電信的研究所的工會也是合作的很順暢大家很和諧所以這有什麼問題我這搞不懂為什麼這影響到團結接下來我們來看100年之後如果照勞動部的說法"},{"start":6695.183,"end":6721.855,"text":"為了促成工會團結要進行這個修法可我們來看事實上工會最高的團結的極致是罷工嘛一百年之後哪些工會罷工機師職業工會空服員職業工會甚至一些產業工會當然我們有些工會也是有蠻進步的一些聲音包括像那個中華電信它也是職業工會為主體所以但是我們這樣來看的話事實上"},{"start":6723.638,"end":6740.098,"text":"勞動部的一百年的這個修法並沒有這樣的效果嘛你們對工會的團結的促進是什麼我看不懂所以我覺得從實務上來看我從28歲加入台灣勞工陣線我跟你們這些國營事業的前輩"},{"start":6741.818,"end":6768.146,"text":"雖然我應該是跟你年紀差不多或比你們年輕啦但我跟中郵的黃清賢黃大哥跟你們台電的劉博包含我當年幫台電三期分會來製作文宣我們很辛苦的在一個國民事業來成立勞工連線為什麼當時工會就是大一統的政府跟工會的結合我們弄勞方連線在中郵工會在中華電信工會"},{"start":6772.145,"end":6796.98,"text":"把真正自主勞工的主導權給拿回來那事實上成績當中的精神我們應該更鼓勵我們這些勞工可以發出自己的聲音更重視工會內的民主我是期待今天的這個修法事實上應該是要成績原來我們在以前工運的改革這個精神那後來我在那個94年跟毛澤飛、毛大哥組合桃園產業總工會那我也曾經是"},{"start":6800.134,"end":6829.122,"text":"那個前輩曾茂興 曾大哥的助理這麼多年的工運經驗我覺得我只有一個感想我自己組的廠廠工會不下六七十間那這些工會經歷過很多抗爭包含罷工這麼長久的一個實際的經歷裡我老實說這個問題並不是所謂的學者專家或律師用學理來跟我們做解釋的"},{"start":6830.114,"end":6855.751,"text":"他事實上更應該從實際台灣工會的發展的脈絡來看他到底需要不需要也不是以空洞的一個工會團結來做這樣的一種修法的依據那我希望在場的 包含今天有國營事業的一些理事長朋友大家都是勞工 都是為了勞選努力我們平心靜氣沉靜下來來思考怎麼樣設計對台灣勞工的未來是最有利的 謝謝"},{"start":6861.293,"end":6875.155,"text":"謝謝杜秘書長那接下來我們請台電公司台東區營業處企工會理事長謝雪霞花言"},{"start":6883.646,"end":6891.541,"text":"各位委員 各位來賓大家好今天有幸參加這次的公聽會我是服務於"},{"start":6893.234,"end":6916.649,"text":"台灣電力公司台東區營業處我是身障人士剩下兩年就即將退休過去的幾年無端遭受我的前處長而且其他的老公身兼勞工董事以及台東區處代表和分會常務理事兩夫妻聯手霸凌羅茲罪名連續的繼過懲處還有篡改考積並等"},{"start":6921.328,"end":6934.854,"text":"意圖使人喪失工作權讓我身心受到很重大的傷痛今天我很沉動的在這裡講台電公司的亂源就是台灣電力公司底下沒有合法登記的分會因此我在113年6月召集了台東區處的一些同仁籌組台東企業公衛"},{"start":6944.895,"end":6953.697,"text":"但成立後因為台電公司台灣電力工會向勞動部訴願就遭到撤銷但成立後因為"},{"start":6954.81,"end":6966.357,"text":"因為看到那個燒肉工廠以及那個華航企業工會的成立以及最近8月8號去年的8月8號最高行政法院112年度上至第119號判決駁回了勞動部對中華電信屏東區處營業處企業工會的上訴讓中華電信屏東區處企業工會能合法成立我想說勞動部為什麼無視"},{"start":6984.388,"end":7002.367,"text":"宪法法庭的裁定及众多行政诉讼胜诉成立的企业工会案例只听信台湾电力工会片面之词罔顾基层劳工的权利仍然以无独立人士预算会计为由撤销台中企业工会的成立"},{"start":7003.288,"end":7027.418,"text":"民國100年之後到110年113年為止公共增加了65個企業公會他裡面包含了各地區的港務公司企業公會國軍武林農場企業公會高雄市政府公園企業公會等等都能成立我想問唯獨只要大公會溯源勞動部就將該企業公會撤銷請問一下勞動部你作為"},{"start":7034.296,"end":7043.963,"text":"勞工的靠山為什麼人家大公會數月你就撤銷讓人不僅懷疑你是像你是因人而異而靠攏大公會勞動部應該是勞工最幾層勞工的靠山是作為應該作為廣大勞工的立場設想如今卻與全國地方勞工為敵"},{"start":7059.065,"end":7065.77,"text":"獨厚大公會的濫權請在座勞動部的長官請你們如果可以的話盡快駁回本會的溯源我們交由行政法庭去裁決再來台電公司近來發生很多霸凌事件甚至很多想不開自殺身亡但事後調查往往避重就輕讓許多家屬"},{"start":7084.175,"end":7103.154,"text":"遭受很大的傷害有些家屬將公司告到法院如高雄區處同仁曾建源自殺事件父母提告到公司霸凌傷害賠償1130度勞數字41號民事事件就是一個實例目前台電公司經營不善虧損連連"},{"start":7106.383,"end":7121.52,"text":"職場環境不佳 員工離職率高升但電力工會並沒有發揮實質的能力公司的永續經營如何改善財務狀況 轉虧為盈以及改善職場的向心力工會是一個很大的關鍵"},{"start":7124.67,"end":7128.832,"text":"台電公司的失業體很大各縣市總共加起來有72個單位我們應該鼓勵各地區的廠長企業工會成立聽取最基層勞工的聲音包含更廣大勞工的意見不該以技術性的法條限縮各縣市勞工的主工會的權利"},{"start":7144.261,"end":7173.421,"text":"台灣是一個民主自由的國家憲法保障人民自由集會結社的權利政府從解嚴後開放黨禁國家並沒有因為眾多黨的成立而破碎反而更進步同樣的勞工權 軟件權更不會因為各地方廠廠企業工會成立而破碎反而因良性競爭會讓工會發揮最大功能迫使台電公司必須改變經營方針以及能源政策的改變"},{"start":7174.961,"end":7202.069,"text":"懇請委員及各位長官為基層勞工把關修改開放勞工成立企業公會的公會法而不是量身訂做主外新公會的成立獨厚、雇主或資方互用的御用公戶或是大公會謝謝以上說明謝謝理事長從台東趕過來辛苦了接下來我們請王一鳴委員發言"},{"start":7209.612,"end":7212.714,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天在座所有出席的工會代表大家好那我要先說一聲大家辛苦了為台灣的經濟大家都在第一線做出最大的貢獻跟打拼那我想我們台灣"},{"start":7225.863,"end":7236.427,"text":"其實最珍貴的價值就是我們是一個自由民主而且擁有多元聲音這樣的一個社會跟國家那所以就像今天的公聽會我們有各自邀請各自站在不同的立場跟聲音然後大家可以多元的自由的表達自己的看法我覺得這個就是台灣社會最珍貴的價值那昨天在未還委員會其實我們也要求勞動部"},{"start":7254.093,"end":7261.595,"text":"這樣的公聽會不只是今天召開勞動部也應該要再召開一場因為台灣這樣的一個多元價值的社會我們遇到一些問題的爭議的時候很重要的就是溝通在溝通而且我們要學會去聆聽彼此的一些聲音跟意見那我想今天我要針對我個人對於這個廠廠工會這件事情提出我個人的看法就因為我覺得保留多元的價值聲音是一個很重要的事情"},{"start":7283.624,"end":7295.597,"text":"所以我比較贊成這個國際勞工組織他公約上面的一個看法就是如果在勞動部應該要保障我們的勞犬的情況底下那我們應該要積極去保障每一個勞工他都可以有自由去表達他多元意見聲音"},{"start":7301.428,"end":7306.551,"text":"而且要確保這樣的一個管道所以事實上在國際勞工組織裡面他就特別去強調了每一個勞動者他組織結社的這樣的一個權利所以如果是站在國際勞工組織這樣的一個看法的話我們應該要保障多元而不是朝向單一這個應該是我們要去追求的一個價值"},{"start":7322.902,"end":7330.125,"text":"另外他也認為勞動者他可以加入或退出工會的權利就是由國際勞工組織他所強調是我們去看重每一個勞工去尊重他那這樣子的一個"},{"start":7336.104,"end":7354.213,"text":"大的guideline跟原則跟方針我覺得我們一直說台灣我們要跟國際接軌那這樣子國際組織他的一些範定我們應該是要把它想辦法落實在我們整個台灣推動的勞動政策跟我們的法令當中那也就是這樣子當從這樣的立場回來看現在廠廠工會"},{"start":7358.015,"end":7361.717,"text":"因為這一次的這個釋憲的申請那勞動部我覺得是太急躁了因為這樣的一個釋憲申請你就急著把執法直接就搬到母法而去忽視看到現在你執法訂定的現在實施的過程當中其實本來就存在一些問題那我們剛剛也特別聽到了就是無論是民營的"},{"start":7379.426,"end":7384.372,"text":"或者是像剛剛是台電的代表是從台東來的他們都在強調一個觀點就是說我們現在如果變成是單一的這個企業工會的時候那他們很多廠廠工會他們在地的意見跟聲音跟他們反映的這一些看法他可能就"},{"start":7397.566,"end":7423.011,"text":"不容易就是下情上打或者是不會被反映出來那如果我們珍視台灣的我們這一些各個產業你看我們的中小企業是各行各業都有我覺得這種多元跟蓬勃就是我們最重要的價值那所以在這樣的一個前提底下我覺得修法的方向不應該是限縮變成是單一的聲音而是監察院的國家人權委員會他特別提到了"},{"start":7423.792,"end":7438.71,"text":"應該要保障各工會的生存空間就是我們應該是這樣子做那不應該是透過法令強制去限制他的生存空間我覺得這些大的原則方向我們應該要把握好那在這樣的前提底下"},{"start":7439.23,"end":7459.32,"text":"然後再去討論剛剛我當然也聽到有些企業工會的代表提到說這個可能內部會有分歧呀那或者是說這個總公司的溝通他是重視廠廠工會的意見不重視反而不重視總工會的這個意見等等但是我覺得那個都是資方這邊他要去做調整的而不是因為勞方這邊都成立了廠廠工會然後就會導致覺得這個完全"},{"start":7465.442,"end":7490.437,"text":"會影響這個勞動權或團結權我覺得這件事情是應該透過溝通而不是透過消滅廠廠工會來達到這樣的一個目標所以我認為勞動部你現在的這個修法其實第二場的公聽會你們應該要再多聽聲音那另外一個就是勞動部我這邊提出來的修法方向是其實是根據勞動部你的大解法的看法"},{"start":7491.464,"end":7512.417,"text":"這個可能是可以有一個解方就是說你現在大解法你的這個保護法第二條第一項的解釋就是說如果那一個廠他擁有獨自經營步測或可單獨辦理登記的營業單位者就得以成立工會這是你自己在大解法你的定義"},{"start":7513.818,"end":7535.023,"text":"既然你的大解法有這樣的一個定義我覺得你現在要在這個工會法裡面就大幅去限縮你這兩者是有矛盾的既然你的大解法可以採取這樣子的一個認定跟看待那是不是你這個部分像我提出來的版本我就希望這個部分入母法是用這樣的一個界定而不是你現在你現在是完全獨立的人事會計某種程度當然是對現在存有的廠廠工會來講這是一種消滅的行為"},{"start":7541.804,"end":7562.531,"text":"就是太嚴格而且是大幅的限縮但是如果你回到跟你的大解法是一致的解釋跟立場的時候那你在處理上面其實就有一致性你又保有現在的這個廠廠工會它有一些符合這個標準的它還是可以持續的運作要不然你自己會有矛盾你遇到大解法的時候你的認定是這個"},{"start":7566.352,"end":7574.714,"text":"這樣子的一個廠廠就符合你大解法結果你將來你的母法裡面更限縮那請問如果你是這樣的一個修法方向將來你是不是要回來修你的大解法你要去限縮那這樣子地方的這個廠廠它變成是你的母書都要回到總公司喔那你這樣要符合你大解法的恐怕將來在這種大型企業裡面那就更困難了這個是你在保障老犬的時候我覺得"},{"start":7593.719,"end":7607.294,"text":"勞動部你要很審慎的思考就是他兩者兩者其實是會互相牽動的所以我覺得今天這個謝謝昭偉有安排這樣一個公聽會我覺得其實是很好就是說讓這個我們不同立場的這個"},{"start":7609.316,"end":7637.278,"text":"企業工會產業工會跟廠商工會之間大家都可以有一個對話的機會那我覺得作為勞動部其實你在思考任何政策的時候你應該思考是說這個對於維護勞權是有益還是會限縮還是會倒退這個應該是作為勞動主管機關你最上位該去思考的那如果就我個人的看法如果是回到你原來這樣的一個工會法就是你把原來的施行細則"},{"start":7638.539,"end":7663.156,"text":"直接提到母法那這個對於勞權坦白講是一個倒退這個不是一個進步所以在修法的過程我覺得要非常的細膩那我覺得各工會之間其實對話才是一個最好的解方就是說大家都很辛苦那我們彼此對話合作然後進一步保障大家所有的勞工的權益我覺得應該是我們追求的目標謝謝"},{"start":7667.303,"end":7673.85,"text":"好 謝謝王毓民委員那我們接續請高雄市獨立總工會理事長王慶紅 理事長歡迎"},{"start":7682.028,"end":7710.649,"text":"好主席各位委員各位在場先進大家好那聽了那麼多其實我準備了很多資料你看我桌上厚厚一疊我現在都不用講了我可以跟各位講該講各位都講完了我直接下結論基本上憲法14條就規範人民有集會結社的自由今天大法官已經判你基本上就是違憲我們勞動部居然還弄出這一種那麼荒謬的版本"},{"start":7711.854,"end":7740.263,"text":"我們的政院我們行政院這個版本送出來能看嗎基本上就是違法在這還討論半天討論要不要可不可以好像是懇求我這邊跟主席還有各位委員報告一下現在台灣社會為什麼大家對公會冷漠反感就是這些國公營事業甚至勞動部底下輔導這些公會導致的結果為什麼每一次選舉"},{"start":7741.973,"end":7769.97,"text":"現場有民眾黨國民黨有民進黨不好意思百光百業站在後面最多是什麼黨是不是民進黨是啊居然還有媒體報導報導什麼中綱理事長政治資源深不可測各位這就是結果主席我這邊很鄭重呼籲如果大家認為民進黨做得不好"},{"start":7770.953,"end":7799.249,"text":"要怎麼做是不是要國民黨民眾黨甚至100人我就可以組織一個新的政黨而不是限縮你一定要有多元的政黨今天這個做不好我才能把它換掉再換句話說你們看各位現在那麼多的企業工會在這邊今天一拖拉鼓每一個上來都說啊不行啊這樣是貪得無厭啊要貪會務假我請問你們你們企業工會有沒有請會務假"},{"start":7801.343,"end":7824.769,"text":"有沒有所有資源都在你們身上不給這些小工會一點生存的權利在我來看你們才是貪得無厭大家都說做工會要心平氣和不要得罪人主席今天的制度就已經要了我們所有這些小工會的命了我們再不跳出來"},{"start":7826.192,"end":7838.403,"text":"我們搞什麼工會啊搞工會是搞特權嗎這些不好意思主席我前面忘記跟各位介紹一下什麼叫煙機工會什麼叫 Yellow Union"},{"start":7839.505,"end":7858.005,"text":"你們知道嗎就是御用工會就是這工會基本上來就是幫資方來發言說你看今天我們很多與會的這些工會的代表我很痛心他們居然今天講的都是幫資方在發言你這樣會讓資方很多人要協商很多意見"},{"start":7859.557,"end":7876.022,"text":"這不是就資方應該要負的責任嗎這不是就當初成立工會的最主要的核心的要件嗎所以最終我沉重的呼籲各位如果我們要一個進步祥和共榮的台灣"},{"start":7877.236,"end":7901.242,"text":"真的大家要把這一些已經我覺得已經不是用那種退步或者是用那種荒謬的工會來形容我覺得太多大型工會他真的都變怪獸他們一直在吞噬所有基層的基本的權利然後來換取自身以後可能要做部分區立委或者是做一個什麼局長"},{"start":7902.402,"end":7930.341,"text":"這我不知道可是這些例子非常多這就是全力集中最後的結果所以拜託各位只要今天我們的民進黨委員或者是我們的政院或者是我們勞動部他行政部中立的部分懇請各位在野的委員能夠都支持至少符合憲法14條人民有集會結社的自由謝謝"},{"start":7935.368,"end":7946.332,"text":"謝謝,謝謝王理事長,講得真好來,我們接續我們請國立台北大學法律學院院長,何院長歡迎這個召集人,還有這個在場的各位委員還有這個各位公衛前輩,各位學者專家,大家早安"},{"start":7966.061,"end":7982.666,"text":"事實上這個我是覺得蠻榮幸這個機會來參與這樣的一個公聽會特別見到蠻多我敬佩的我的工會的各位前輩還有我常遇到的這個第一線的的一個各工會理事長"},{"start":7983.846,"end":8008.148,"text":"事實上所談的內容我也都覺得非常的重要因為為了整個工會的一個發展我覺得確實也是需要把聲音講出來我當時也有幸在大官會議在做出來的時候我也擔任所謂的專家鑑定人也出示了相關的報告"},{"start":8009.309,"end":8036.696,"text":"那不過我講的不重要所以這個內容好像各位比較注意的是這個人權這個國家人權會所做出來的鑑定書所以我的鑑定書其實意義不大那在意義不大之下我想我還是很弱的小小的把我的研究心得我是用中立的角度來提供給各位做參考那事實上這個"},{"start":8038.305,"end":8059.355,"text":"本來也整理了這個講綱後來我發現其實大家都講完了大家都講完都講得很棒那整個比較重要的就是大家聚焦在這個這個結社自由的有相關的相關的一個結社的一個促進等等那也確實"},{"start":8061.551,"end":8087.259,"text":"勞工就是應該有加入工會的機會勞工就是要能夠跟僱主團體協商本來要開另外一戰線公務人員之類的不過這個戰線我們就不要再開了從這樣的一個發展裡面其實各國也都有一些保障我也就覺得很重要各國對勞工的保障的方式原則上當然也是承認他們可以加入工會"},{"start":8088.083,"end":8117.385,"text":"只是加入工會之後在工會的相關的管制上各國有各國不同的模式例如日本他勞工可以組成工會那大部分的確實也是企業工會但是他們也比較再怎麼小也大概是以所謂的事業單位為限而且在相關的管制裡面如果你要進行所謂的不當勞動行為救濟那就會被要求要審查等等的管制方式"},{"start":8117.881,"end":8136.657,"text":"那美國我想在座很多人也都了解可以組公會但是你要去進行協商的時候他們就有一個相關的程序去管制說你能夠去協商的這樣的一個資格所以其實每個國家都有不同的對公會團結權等等的相關的一些保障的或是規範的方式"},{"start":8137.415,"end":8166.348,"text":"所以我覺得這個也是事實上其實今天的議題我自己會覺得這是各國在整個的政策上的發展的一個選擇你要怎麼樣去處理勞工的議題當然要尊重他能夠去組成工會的這樣的一個權限那在這樣的一個方向之下各國都有不同的規範的方式我們這個回到我們的台灣的部分"},{"start":8169.141,"end":8188.742,"text":"我們台灣目前剛剛這個這個有委員提到我們有這個各種工會不同的型態我只是羅列大概有職業工會有產業工會然後有企業工會的這些方式那在這些工會的組成裡面我想過去為了這個"},{"start":8191.045,"end":8211.367,"text":"就是說讓因為工會企業工會一般我們在評估上可能會覺得比較弱勢等等所以有一些保障一些保障那這些保障裡面包含費用價會貸扣團體協商資格等等所以一旦被定義為是企業工會就有政策上就有這些保障所以問題在於說"},{"start":8214.431,"end":8231.623,"text":"整個的政策上要怎麼處理如果放開工會這些工會的組成會不會干擾到後續的會務價會不會代工協商資格要不要一併做調整呢所以在這樣的一個政策選擇裡面到底要怎麼樣去做一個折衷呢我想這也才是關鍵那在這個關鍵之下"},{"start":8235.08,"end":8255.373,"text":"在大官的解釋裡面他明白講了雖然我的鑑定報告當時也不重要他最後講的是沒有違反比例原則沒有侵害團結權只是這個未接違反的法律保留所以要提升到法律的層面那在這樣的一個層面之下"},{"start":8256.445,"end":8279.34,"text":"我想在目前以不變動最大的幅度的狀況之下勞動部去提了這樣的一個把原本的然後希望能夠再更清楚的提升到這樣的一個法律層面這也是一種選項那當然這也是需要在我剛剛說的是政策選擇需要溝通那這個溝通之下會不會產生對其他的對企業公會的保障產生影響這也是一種選擇"},{"start":8281.447,"end":8300.144,"text":"這是需要溝通那現在是不變動不大變動為方向我這麼推測這個提供參考 謝謝我的講的不重要 謝謝謝謝侯院長那接下來我們請林業勤立委"},{"start":8318.756,"end":8344.74,"text":"今天很感謝各位的工會的頭人來到這邊也感謝我們的所有人來舉辦這樣子的一個公聽會的確台灣事實上是工會逐年下降的主工會比例從7.3那降到2024年的大概5.98而且跟其他國家比的話事實上是相對的事實上是低的"},{"start":8345.404,"end":8360.363,"text":"那而且這個工會裡面大概以職業工會事實上是佔比比較高是為了社會保險投保的單位所成立的這樣的一個職業工會相對於其他的企業產業跟我們的總聯合會這些的比例上事實上是偏低的"},{"start":8360.882,"end":8372.95,"text":"可是工會就像勞工的好處因為他們很多需要要去處理的尤其是兩個很重要的也就是團體協約的締結跟修改跟廢紙和我們的勞資爭議的處理"},{"start":8377.349,"end":8401.446,"text":"尤其在臺灣這樣子的一個狀態裡面也就是公會組織率偏低的國家在面對勞資協商的時候資方的力量勢必會超過我們勞方那真的就會不利於我們的勞動者那而且再從數據來看的話近五年大概每一年臺灣的勞資增益大概是在有2576"},{"start":8404.855,"end":8431.19,"text":"件左右那就是可是看到這個數據呢大概以我們的所謂的零售製造跟資源服務住宿跟餐飲業居多超過一半那可是我也擔心的是說這個勞資爭議的案件裡邊這些申訴的並順利結的案子裡邊有兩萬五千多件可是懷疑那些沒有順利結案甚至沒有提出救濟的到底"},{"start":8431.909,"end":8453.829,"text":"有多少所以看起來如果工會比較少的時候相對的這樣的狀況裡邊就是看5年來整個經申訴結案的大概37萬5千位的一個勞資爭議的勞工幾乎都是76.3%都是靠自己向地方政府勞工局處申訴"},{"start":8454.98,"end":8473.034,"text":"只有23.7%是獲得民間團體的協助那可能就是會是公會的力量來做協助可是在勞資正義的案件當中要拿回自己的權利的時候需要的是勞動法的一個相關的一個專業多數的勞工並不具備這樣子的一個專業"},{"start":8476.65,"end":8501.921,"text":"那大家回到這次要去討論的這件事情的確我們的廠廠工會資格要件那我們的憲法法庭第七號判決也是說要由法律來做明定那不過這次的修法勞動部是想要把工會法施行細則第二條的文字直接卻搬到本法來的話"},{"start":8503.021,"end":8529.235,"text":"可能要考慮到幾個點第一個點就是我們的稅籍登記取代如果公司登記跟營業登記跟商業登記並且獨立的人事預算跟與會計並列為資格要件是不是一個合適的限制所以這要考慮再者如果不具稅籍登記的是不是允許具備工廠登記的勞動勞工手足工會"},{"start":8531.192,"end":8551.969,"text":"而且我們要如何看待這件事情在同一個地址同時成立企業工會跟廠廠工會的問題第二個是不對外營業的內部單位像廚房是不是可以成立工會這也是一個問題第三個是免營業稅額的範圍像是農業工作或像是社區的產業成立工會"},{"start":8558.177,"end":8573.696,"text":"團結權不會因此受到破壞的話我期待本市修法能夠用最大的範圍以上謝謝林委員我報告一下等一下我們第21位來賓講完之後"},{"start":8578.654,"end":8594.009,"text":"這個以上是我們立法院邀請的那還有四位來賓也要求發言我們會給他們發言好那我們接續我們請蔡智陽弘大法律事務所主持律師發言"},{"start":8599.935,"end":8624.448,"text":"時間限制我就不跟各位一一喊訊那所謂112年憲判制的第七號判決白紙黑字寫得很清楚工會成立要件的規範設計立法者享有一定的行程空間那也明文說到原來適應細則的規範雖然違反法律保留的原則但是並沒有違反比例原則的規定理由是為了防止工會過於零碎無法凝聚力量破碎化的現象那現行以廠廠作為"},{"start":8626.289,"end":8627.189,"text":"以上是憲法法庭的判決寫的文字"},{"start":8651.637,"end":8680.777,"text":"就今天的一乘一有没有侵害结社自由的问题本人认为劳工团结权虽然是结社自由的一种然而劳工团结权与一般的结社自由之间仍然有本质上的差异劳工团结权之于组织工会是基于劳工与雇主间处于一个弱势的关系我们为了促使劳工团结所以国家赋予许多的特权例如团体协商法定同意法定代表法定货物价以及团体的争议权"},{"start":8681.677,"end":8708.187,"text":"那也因此有這些特權所以在這個規範設計上必須要以有利於導向形塑於夥伴競爭關係以及讓工會與僱主之間抗衡以及交涉來為必要所以工會與一般的結社兩者之間有事務本質的差異不能要求工會這個結社的自由必須以一般結社的自由來等同看齊除非我們要減少工會的權利但事實上不可能因約廢時"},{"start":8709.147,"end":8732.817,"text":"也就是我们不能使得工会成为一个具有其表的形式而无实现劳动三权的实质的权利这国家反而有保护义务不足的瑕疵现行的依照原适应细则的实务结果实际上与欧洲人权法院、德国、英美等国并没有太大的差异因此本人认为不认有违反这个IOA公约保障的节奏自由以及团结权"},{"start":8733.837,"end":8750.637,"text":"那就第一層二和一層三的這個問題我認為這個應該與數量的多寡與縣市的分布無關人應該以該場場是否具有一定的規模以及大法官憲判制所講的應該具備一定的經營的功能有關本人贊同原適應細則的規定依憲法"},{"start":8752.839,"end":8770.431,"text":"法院的判决提升到法律维杰就可因为现行适应系则所定的厂产已经算是一个企业组织最小的单位如果还要再切割容许涵盖公司下的内部单位比如说科、市、部门等等实际上在该范围内的工作劳工的劳动条件是不可能"},{"start":8771.372,"end":8788.059,"text":"獨立於這個其他單位之外難以期待雇主為這樣的內部單位員工讓步協商做成異於其他單位的結果因此實際上是很難去取得優於勞動條件的團體協約在一個碎裂化的常常型企業公會下因規模會員人數均少無法團結力量"},{"start":8789.039,"end":8806.965,"text":"雇主从中介入破坏的可能性也高本人身为不当劳动行为裁决委员会的委员在许多的裁决个案中的观察已经发现公会法定同意权代表权在附属公会下目前都异生这个牢牢相争的情形如果在小于目前实习者所定的规范"},{"start":8807.645,"end":8828.099,"text":"不但可能使得這個一個合理經營的企業單位下不同部門各自適用不同的勞動條件使得勞工無所適從更加使得勞勞相爭的情況一加的嚴重尤其在現行獨有的我國獨有的法律會務價的情況下如果致意容許成立的微小的工會表面上我們似乎可以提高工會的組織率但是會驟然增加雇主負擔會務價"},{"start":8831.761,"end":8852.392,"text":"那勢必更突增勞資爭議反而使得這個本來要保障我們工會幹部處理會務的權利那實際上使得工會無法有效的運作的來做弱化所以本人贊同維持原試驗系的規定如果需要修正建議也僅僅做微調就好這樣其實也才最符合憲法法庭判決的意旨謝謝蔡知陽律師"},{"start":8860,"end":8864.566,"text":"接下來我們請全國教育產業總工會理事長林碩傑歡迎"},{"start":8882.169,"end":8898.117,"text":"主席各位先進大家好今天我們來參加這個公聽會不過蠻特殊的我們雖然有開會通知單不過在大門口是被擋住進不來所以雖然說我不是學者專家不過我們有公文這是蠻特殊的一個現象"},{"start":8899.378,"end":8925.483,"text":"那有關這個這次供聽員是主要是公共表達適應細則第2條第1項第2項的規定現在未接把它提升到這個母法那不過我們全教產是有發現就是說行政院本來就勞動部直接把這個適應細則的條文幾乎一模一樣就是複製貼到這個本法裡面去其實蠻特殊的其實我們是覺得這樣可能有待商榷"},{"start":8926.903,"end":8929.485,"text":"那裡面講到就是像獨立人事獨立會計獨立預算那後來這個勞動部的文件裡面有講到說有稅級編號那個這個部分其實我們覺得應該都還有討論的空間可是我們是認為說這樣也算是"},{"start":8947.822,"end":8972.257,"text":"有限制勞工結社自由限制了廠廠工會的成立那這個也是跟各位剛剛前面所聽到就是說跟國際勞工組織第87號98號公約還有兩公約的一些所保障的結社自由和團結權的精神相違背了那個條文的部分我就不再贅述因為前面大家都已經講過聽到所以我們全國教育產業總會針對這個同業公司"},{"start":8975.058,"end":8981.026,"text":"成立所謂廠長工會企業工會我們是認為說應該以開放為最高指導原則應該要開放不管是你怎麼開放或者是剛剛前面有先進講說有條件來開放我們認為說應該要以開放為最高指導原則"},{"start":8992.26,"end":9003.043,"text":"我們現在跳出來 不好意思 跳出來就是說現在的工會法 施行細則的話就是說用獨立人事預算會計跟勞動部後來又加一個稅級編號來限制這個廠長公會企業公會的成立可是這個工會法目前他也透過第六條限制這個各級學校成立所謂企業公會"},{"start":9018.627,"end":9041.619,"text":"那可是各位現在的這個各級學校他們有沒有獨立的人事會計預算稅級編號都有可是他們被限制了不是限制他們是被禁止被禁止那另外各個政府機關各個政府機關他們的這個有沒有獨立的人事會計預算甚至稅級編號"},{"start":9043.952,"end":9068.305,"text":"應該都有可是公務人員可不可以成立企業公會也不行所以其實這是一部很特殊的公會法我們發現就是說今天不管你有沒有獨立的人事會計預算或者是隨機編號政府都要透過公會法來限制你成立企業公會用公會法來限制這些受僱者的結社自由跟團結權"},{"start":9070.326,"end":9090.404,"text":"這個部分我們是認為不可取的我們認為說包括公務員他們也應該就是從公衛法第四條跳出來包括教師也是一樣不應該受到這樣的一個限制前面也講到就憲法第十條保障人民有接受自由可是今天我們看到公衛法就是說是一步跛腳的"},{"start":9091.505,"end":9106.579,"text":"限縮勞工結社自由禁止教師禁止公務員組織企業公會的公會法我們認為這些啊都違反了這個兩公約還有國際勞工組織公約我們希望說立法院能夠改變這個亂象以上謝謝謝謝我們林壽傑"},{"start":9117.233,"end":9125.198,"text":"理事長那接續我們請全國教師公會總聯合會執行長洪偉斌"},{"start":9133.915,"end":9156.824,"text":"主席 各位與會夥伴大家早安我是全教總及行政執行長洪偉斌代表全教總來參加這次的公聽會那我想 環顧所有的受惠者的歷史勞動基本權是來自於對於工作跟生存權的一個需求轉換成一個所謂的社會性質的基本勞動權"},{"start":9157.904,"end":9160.726,"text":"那所以這個集體勞動權就會變成了也變成加入組織公會或者是加入公會的團結權那為了跟雇主協商也變成了所謂的集體協商權那為了跟雇主對抗也衍生所謂的爭議權所以勞動三權其實基本上是應該回顧到是屬於受雇者應該所擁有的那我看到"},{"start":9182.538,"end":9207.004,"text":"目前公會法實行細則第二條跟第一項第二項被憲法法庭所判定它違反了法律保護原則所以因此在徵修第六條之一呢我們的認為是常常企業公會應該扶贏受僱者應該有所擁有的勞動基本權利也就是最大的開放讓所有受僱者都應該擁有合法的勞動三權"},{"start":9208.704,"end":9217.164,"text":"我想各種限制如果限制到了受惠者應該擁有一個基本的勞動權我覺得這個限制過當了"},{"start":9219.134,"end":9236.358,"text":"今天前院長來這邊參加公聽會其實有另外一個訴求就是我們對於一百年公會法修訂之後雖然賦予了教師可以組公會但是呢也限制了教師某些勞動三權第一個我們不能組企業公會"},{"start":9239.719,"end":9250.583,"text":"我們只能組四成級的職業工會、產業工會跟聯合工會那這裡的勞動三權呢就被限制了一個很重要的叫做企業工會那我們產生的問題就是我們的會務價目前工會法第36"},{"start":9260.496,"end":9288.815,"text":"對於企業公會的會務竟然教師公會就不適用那教師公會不適用之後呢就會變成我們的會務安全就產生一個疑慮為什麼產生疑慮呢 因為我們必須跟雇主協商那雇主協商裡面我們教師公會又被所謂團體協商制限制不得罷工不得罷工底下的協商權基本叫做無牙齒的老虎"},{"start":9290.031,"end":9315.934,"text":"無牙扯牙舞 因為大家都知道團體協約最大的武器就來自後面罷工當你被限制不得罷工的時候 那個協商是假的那這假了之後 就演變成什麼那個協商又協商不出來然後甚至呢 雇主會運用他的所謂準服權來阻擾這一個團體協約的進行那使得教師公會的會務價就產生了一個很嚴重的疑慮"},{"start":9317.36,"end":9331.095,"text":"雖然說在101年全教總曾經跟教育部協商過教師公會的會務價給予的原則但是教育部後來自己承認或者否認它是一個"},{"start":9332.587,"end":9346.754,"text":"韓式 而是變成指導公文指導公文就變成各地方政府可遵守 可不遵守根本不甩教育部這件事情所以我們有很大有兩個很明顯的例子比如2016年的南投縣林縣長就直接拒絕教師公會的會務假"},{"start":9348.675,"end":9370.172,"text":"直接取消 連談都沒得談那就必須讓教職公會去用老彩爭了多年之後甚至到換縣長那才給教職公會會務假那現在有一個更離譜的例子就是台南市台南市從102年開始有個蔡姓議員透過市議員的執行壓迫的"},{"start":9371.287,"end":9389.206,"text":"台南市教育局不給教師公會的會務假甚至限縮會務假 到現在還在有還在限制 甚至要求公會提供更多更多內部文件給他 他才要合給那根本就是危害了會務安全跟"},{"start":9390.007,"end":9415.365,"text":"所謂的工會運作那這個都不當的打壓那不當的打壓的最大原因就是因為我們的工會法裡面並沒有明確的給教師工會會務價的訂定所以我們希望藉由這一場工會當然除了廠長工會之外我們也拜託立法院甚至勞動部應該正視教師工會因為被限制不能組契工會所產生的會務價應該如何制定"},{"start":9418.968,"end":9440.765,"text":"我覺得在法規上面給予的空間那我們回到跟縣市政府或僱主在談的時候他的法規明確 一致性明確那就不再會有不當的打壓我覺得這個是我們今天全長來參加這個公聽會想要借用這個公聽會期待我們立法院期待我們勞務部門看見的部分以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝洪執行長"},{"start":9447.932,"end":9460.882,"text":"那接續我們邀請還有兩位第一位是洪秀榮中華電信股份有限公司勞工董事洪秀榮先生給他發給你"},{"start":9473.871,"end":9497.961,"text":"我們那個蘇委員謝謝還有各位委員大家好剛剛針對這幾個前輩的發言我發現很容易就提到我們中華電信公會跟中華電信公司根據這個議題來講我個人覺得在立一個法的時候應該是立到大家都能滿意才對像以中華電信為例"},{"start":9502.033,"end":9519.59,"text":"經歷了廠廠工會的衝擊以後中華電信目前內部有16個廠廠工會它真正的原因發生不是在於廠廠工會可不可以成立而是在於廠廠工會成立以後把自己的權利義務弄不清楚比如說今天某個廠廠廠工會成立以後他呢去跟"},{"start":9527.552,"end":9551.636,"text":"事業單位型的工會去爭取說我們產業民主裡面勞工董事他也要分一杯所以本來勞工董事按照法令規定是由事業單位去推派結果廠廠工會一成立他說他也要推派然後呢另外還有職安委員廠廠工會說他要參與結果政府只是發一道公文給我們中華電信工會說請公司"},{"start":9557.199,"end":9567.604,"text":"要求內部各16個工會去推一個勞工董事或推兩三個職安委員出來這在古代用國語講叫做二逃殺三次在現代用台語講叫做等一袋馬骨頭攏到手腳對不對"},{"start":9576.149,"end":9601.529,"text":"所以今天你要做到廠廠工會跟事業單位並存你一定要把一個機制訂好但是我們立法部門在訂這些的時候往往忽略到所以造成演變現在這個形象我個人這個月才卸任我是已經連任兩任的中華電信工會的理事長也是中華電信裡面最大的網路分公司廠廠工會的理事長現在是勞工董事"},{"start":9605.27,"end":9621.112,"text":"在中華電信公會擔任分會理事長現在是第九屆一任四年所以整個經歷過來我發現目前現在的規定裡面廠廠公會裡面的權利義務在立法裡面應該有所節制"},{"start":9622.56,"end":9642.379,"text":"如果服難的訂了以後現在的廠廠工會他也會吃到虧為什麼比如說今天一個廠廠工會裡面有兩千人了我們事業單位是兩萬人他兩千人但是兩千人裡面他有分獨立棟一棟大概一百人兩百人這樣子到時候廠廠工會裡面底下又設了更多廠廠工會因為三十人就可以組工會"},{"start":9643.14,"end":9660.069,"text":"對不對所以你一開放以後是造成現在以為他廠長工會很好了但是他裡面各部門又去成立工會那怎麼辦因為我們工會的組織門檻只有30人就好了對不對好那在我們台灣我個人認為組織力要提高"},{"start":9660.829,"end":9684.987,"text":"不是只有針對廠廠工會真正要提高的是開放讓中小企業的員工可以達到主工會比如說今天兩萬人的工會要找三十人很容易隨便就主廠廠工會我們裡面的廠廠工會兩千人隨便找三十個也找得到但是一家中小企業他只有一百人或五百人或甚至八十人他怎麼主工會所以這個門檻該不會降低"},{"start":9689.506,"end":9718.625,"text":"應該要研究一下應該要降低應該有雙維並存30人以上或總員工人數的五分之一就可以組工會用兩種方式去去弄出來第三個我覺得工會出來以後要讓工會有談判協商的權利以外還要有一個真正的爭議行為要給工會像剛剛教師工會你沒有給爭議行為這是不對的而且組織工會應該只要受雇者就可以組像"},{"start":9719.218,"end":9733.623,"text":"警察、消防委個人也贊成應該組工會應該全部都要組工會但是你只要把遊戲規則、權利義務定清楚組出來才不會爭論以上就是我的說明,謝謝大家謝謝洪秀龍前理事長最後一位我們請雲林縣產業總工會理事長林志丸理事長"},{"start":9748.422,"end":9750.104,"text":"感謝主席,感謝各位先進坐在那裡那麼久才知道要發言"},{"start":9768.943,"end":9786.222,"text":"那我想今天好像剛才有一間經理好像有提到今天好像都是國工與事業的工會比較多好像民營企業的比較少然後本身是屬於民營企業的七種工會是民營企業"},{"start":9787.483,"end":9809.849,"text":"那在雲林縣在雲林縣我們的說實在跟今天的狀況好像有點相反因為在雲林縣我們的絕大多數的部分都是廠長工會而且在我們的事業體系裡面在台收體系裡面也是全部幾乎都是全部都是廠長工會當然廠長工會其實跟"},{"start":9815.351,"end":9829.328,"text":"在場的狀況跟我們的狀況其實大致上都一致只要時間一久都會有一些富庶公威的產生那我想這都不是好事因為剛才有先進也有提到我們的目前的"},{"start":9830.069,"end":9844.945,"text":"的工會操組率一直沒有提升反而一直下降但是我會覺得這個提升的數值應該在提升在事業單位還沒有工會組織的的一個事業單位來提升這個部分"},{"start":9845.665,"end":9854.531,"text":"這是比較重要的一個環節比較重要因為這樣才能普遍讓所有的勞工享受工會的這個組織有工會的這個保護傘所以說我還是會建議應該思考在如何提升上位籌組工會的事業單位這邊如何來輔導他們來提升這個"},{"start":9869.901,"end":9895.514,"text":"公會整體的這個籌組率我想這是比較實際的但是如果如果修法當然有一些基本上我還當然絕對會有結社的自由我也認同這個觀點所以說我們政院的這種版本適度的來我也是可以理解但是我還是要回歸那個剛才說的那個"},{"start":9897.835,"end":9912.785,"text":"那個角度就是如何來提升還沒成立我們講辦法來提升這個這個他的籌組然後抱歉因為我不知道我要發言所以說也不知道臨時臨時想到實際上的狀況在雲林縣確實是這樣跟大家的狀況確實完全是相反的我們是以長壤公衛為主體的好以上發言感謝"},{"start":9924.929,"end":9939.605,"text":"你是劉建國委員給你推薦的所以一定要給你放眼因為立法院邀請的是有車馬費這個推薦的都沒有所以給你抱歉一下"},{"start":9943.007,"end":9969.807,"text":"我們學者專家委員遊說代表都發言完畢那在這個行政機關回應之前我做個初步結論就是說我個人主席我不做立場發言僅就今天所有的重要意見希望政府能夠重視尤其是專家學者還有業者的代表"},{"start":9970.714,"end":9977.724,"text":"那我們昨天委員會也有要求勞動部要辦一場自己辦一場公聽會嘛好那我們現在請勞動部來回應"},{"start":9987.513,"end":10001.922,"text":"主席剛才各位先進所提到的很多事情也會涉及到現在的實務運作是不是容許我先請我們的業務司司長先做整體性的一些說明我最後面再就勞動部的里長做一個總結"},{"start":10008.23,"end":10031.244,"text":"主席 各位與會代表 關係師來這邊做簡要的回應首先謝謝各位學者專家還有我們工會的先進提供很多寶貴意見那我這邊逐一簡單的回應第一個部分有關於包括幾個教師工會的理事長陳理事長 洪文斌理事長 林碩傑理事長關心的那個教師工會的一些成立的問題 不管是"},{"start":10032.225,"end":10057.691,"text":"可不可以在廠廠設立學校的企業工會或是會務架的問題乃至於教師可不可以行使罷工權的問題那這個題目我們確實在100年在修法的時候經過很努力的溝通跟這個協調協商那就現在的法治那這部分也會涉及到教育現場的一些很重大的變革跟學生的一些受教權有一些環環相扣的一些關鍵"},{"start":10058.971,"end":10074.337,"text":"所以這部分我們還是需要凝聚一些社會共識那這些題目我們會繼續跟教育部來進行一些溝通這是第一個部分第二個部分陳昭志委員有關心到是說大法官有很多提出一個不同意見書我們也應該要參佐"},{"start":10076.758,"end":10089.592,"text":"那確實整個大法官的不同意見書有好幾份那也有大法官是完全支持我們認為也沒有違反比例原則的也沒有違反法律保障原則的不過這部分都會讓我們提醒我們"},{"start":10090.816,"end":10110.693,"text":"在很多公會法修法上不管是同意跟不同意見的大法官的建議我們都列為我們將來在做公會法修正的時候的一些很重要的參考其實有關於那個王振旭委員一直提醒我們勞動部一定要不斷去強化公會的籌組率這一點我們都努力在"},{"start":10112.915,"end":10138.225,"text":"推進特別是我們仰賴很多我們工會先進像剛剛在座幾位工會先進非常努力的在我們的這個勞工這個部分協助他們抽出工會所以我們一方面透過勞動部的行政機關的努力的推動一方面我們借重上級工會跟既有工會的努力幫我們去促請我們勞工朋友抽出工會這部分我們會繼續加強"},{"start":10139.925,"end":10159.415,"text":"至於團體協商能力我們現在也在努力透過入場輔導入場協商甚至包括協商人才一些培訓這一點我們一定會繼續往下來做一些努力其實有關於我們台東企業公會抽組這個案子的溯源決定確實我們溯源會是一個獨立的決定的機關"},{"start":10163.877,"end":10177.996,"text":"那他在做溯源的決定的時候呢他會依據現有既有的相關的法規來做合法性的判斷那確實我們的信息的是在5月今年的5月18號以後他會失效所以"},{"start":10178.988,"end":10197.877,"text":"他現在在蘇院委員來他做依法判斷的時候呢他還是得要依據現在的施行系統的規定去做一個合法性的判斷所以才會做這樣一個最後駁回的一個決定那其實是有關於監察院的人權報告的提出的意見"},{"start":10199.217,"end":10211.122,"text":"健身安全報告的意見呢事實上在兩年前的憲法法庭判決的那個時候也有提出來成為大法官參酌的依據當初我們也有收到這樣一個"},{"start":10212.489,"end":10235.326,"text":"人權意見報告提出了一些要求事實上他所最主要提出來的幾點事實上不管是我們沒有事先審核工會主義我們對工會沒有歧視等等其實我們都有符合當然人權報告裡面提到幾個關鍵的地方譬如說他認為工會不能單一"},{"start":10236.227,"end":10253.884,"text":"那這個部分也涉及到一個很重大的立法政策的選擇就是說一家企業裡面是否允許很多家的工會同時的出現那不應該這樣一個限制那這些部分都是列為我們立法選擇政策為很重要的參考"},{"start":10255.475,"end":10279.851,"text":"接下來王一鳴委員有提的提案就是希望用我們大解法的那個條文作為廠長公會設立的依據那但是我得要稍微說明一下大解法課與那個企業要做通報主要的目的是因為你要解你要解雇那麼多人我希望你趕快通報我們儲管機關我們趕快把這些人用什麼方法讓他輸出讓他"},{"start":10282.411,"end":10294.03,"text":"找工作的機會速度快一點不要造成當地的就業機會的很大的一個衝擊那所以當初設定的是完全是客與雇主很重大的義務所以我們那個有強調叫經濟主體"},{"start":10296.448,"end":10312.024,"text":"那這樣的一個規範的目的跟我們現在有一個協商的目標的團結權的概念我們是認為不太一樣那兩個要把它移動過來可能還是要做比較周圍的考量會比較好"},{"start":10313.018,"end":10329.263,"text":"然後其實呢最後面呢我就再怎麼總結來跟各位來做個說明我知道各位先進這很多都是非常在供應界非常非常有很多貢獻的各位工會的各位領袖"},{"start":10330.765,"end":10347.885,"text":"我理解大家的想法都一致就希望我們工會更強大希望我們勞工朋友都保障工作權我也理解很多工會幹部一直不斷跟我講恨鐵不成鋼希望我們的大型工會更好但是我還是必須要說一個大型工會的經營其實不容易"},{"start":10348.866,"end":10370.553,"text":"那工會他其實不是什麼有具有法律公權力的一個機關他也是要必須接受我們的會員的考驗那我始終還是認為怎麼樣透過內部民主如果不行大家就透過我們的人去投票去改變而制度跟運作我認為還是兩個不同的角度"},{"start":10371.813,"end":10400.293,"text":"我比較能夠希望是團結權它是建立在一個所有工會籌組的最高最高的目標我實在是不太能夠理想像是說假設一個銀行工會有全台灣有100多個分行它都成立100個工會我不談會務價那個那是公司應該付的成本我完全支持可是當這樣的情形出現以後跟現在一個譬如說兆豐銀行工會"},{"start":10401.462,"end":10418.02,"text":"一個核酷工會有沒有哪個方式的選擇未來的實踐的想像會比較好因為有時候我們這種社會科學的立法他沒有辦法先實驗看看因為一實驗下去回不了頭那今天我們就站在一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":10419.617,"end":10437.046,"text":"轉利點我們大家去想一想立法政策的選擇我們需不需要一個團結一個大的工會如果他做的不好我們把他做改變可以還是我們讓所有30個人以上的只要你有一個稅級登記你只要一個工廠登記你就可以成立"},{"start":10438.735,"end":10463.413,"text":"那這樣一個選擇到底哪個比較好我們可以一起來努力再來多考慮而且我也認為應該考慮一下職方的思維當然大家也認為這是應該職方所付的成本但是我們所有的工會的目的就是要透過職方拿到更好的條件我們工會不是成立是一個福利性的在座很多工會的理事長你們都常常告訴我"},{"start":10464.295,"end":10488.738,"text":"工會不是一個辦福利而已你們都努力的在協商在座的工會理事長都在台灣的團體協商都扮演非常好的角色那現在就是我也要讓資方理解你將來要面對是100個工會的協商我們也要聽聽看資方的意見所以我將來我們辦的工會這個委員會有要求我辦工地會的時候呢我也會要求資方一起來表達一下"},{"start":10489.83,"end":10499.034,"text":"如果大家覺得這樣的路徑對台灣的工會運作有更好的推進對勞資協商有更好的願景我們一起來努力以上簡要的報告 謝謝謝謝市長"},{"start":10508.444,"end":10526.76,"text":"各位與會先進,剛才我們的市長因為在關係公會的部分有相當多的豐富經歷,所以我請他先做相關內容的說明。就我一個比較之前的後輩,雖然我是常務市長,所以比較之前的後輩,我的看法是這樣子。"},{"start":10527.621,"end":10546.729,"text":"今天不管在座先進委員、專家學者、社運前輩或是工會領袖大家各式各樣的發言都是為了勞工勞動權益出發我們都聲表尊敬每個人看到不同的面向所提出的批評、對勞動部的指教"},{"start":10548.59,"end":10570.336,"text":"不管是說我們是荒謬遮羞不武或如何我都覺得這可能是我們的努力不夠我們的說明不夠我們跟大家的溝通管道沒有非常的順暢或者是說明不夠那這部分甚至於未來政策面都還可以大家再持續的去討論那很精進所以剛才有提到我們將來還會再辦公聽會"},{"start":10572.657,"end":10587.807,"text":"那我也不當然認為說那個公聽會就是只單純for這個工會法這一次的修正其實工會運動是一個長遠的歷史但是也容許讓我做以下幾點表達"},{"start":10588.587,"end":10603.355,"text":"第一個就是說勞動部作為一個勞動主管機關絕對不可能會站在四方的立場去想事情那剛才我們的司長雖然講到說我們需要聽一下四方的意見無非是說當這些事情"},{"start":10603.955,"end":10633.212,"text":"在勞資關係上面如果我們對資方這意見也沒有做適度的溝通到最後很可能弄到最後勞資關係惡劣的結果那資本主義的市場底下勞工一定會是最後的受害對象所以我們希望在相關的修法裡面保障勞工的權利但是也能夠跟資方在如何促進這一邊維持一個可以處理的模式這個大概是"},{"start":10633.712,"end":10659.18,"text":"我們的一個想法那剛才大家有提到很多的指教那我簡單的做兩點的補充第一點就是說我們在思考勞動者的權益的時候大家都願意憲法的結社自由或團結權一般人的結社自由就是你情我願政府不應該過度干涉但是我們在工會的部分是勞動領域重要的權利"},{"start":10660.12,"end":10674.336,"text":"工會的部分是團結權的一部分同團結權協商權到爭議權是我們勞動法集體勞動法的重要的一環所以工會的組成會代表一定的法定的地位"},{"start":10675.077,"end":10692.035,"text":"一定的法定地位他就取得了相應的一些權利或相應的一些工具可以來跟僱主做溝通做對抗做相應的處理所以剛才王振旭委員也有提到我們在整個的勞動法制裡面有很多地方對於工會的部分"},{"start":10692.736,"end":10706.657,"text":"有相關的權利的部分在這裡做處理所以當我們在討論這些面向的時候不管是在講人數的組成不管是在講個數要不要做負數不管是在講要不要匯物價"},{"start":10707.639,"end":10731.313,"text":"或者說要不要有爭議權 爭議權要不要有若干的限制那我要跟各位報告 這個都是整體面 大家需要集體的其實管理去思考沒有辦法單純從單一的問題直接去切入去做處理我舉一百年那個勞動三法修法為例當時教師為什麼主公會會說應該"},{"start":10733.954,"end":10749.077,"text":"一個縣市組一個而沒有辦法到每個學校去組因為台灣的學校有大有小小的學校如果教師組工會那依照我們對會務價的理解或相應的理解那這個他第一個他在"},{"start":10750.438,"end":10766.626,"text":"國小義務教育的國家的義務稅型上面會產生一定的影響第二個他要協商的對象是校長嗎校長其實也是一個受僱者所以當時的理想像就是說應該是跟縣市教育局來做一個對口"},{"start":10767.146,"end":10794.607,"text":"我的意思並沒有要辯解或解釋但我只是在告訴說很多事情當時在做討論的時候立法政策或者是立法的那個體系它有一定的脈絡有些東西是折衝的結果有些東西是制度的使然像剛才大家所講的警校公務員組工會也是一樣從勞動部的角度而言我們希望所有的工作者不只是受雇勞工或都應該要有"},{"start":10796.108,"end":10812.17,"text":"團結權都應該要受到保障但是在目前的憲政分立底下他就是在考試院的全責範圍他們也願意在考試院的體制去做處理勞動部也願意協助他在那一邊把他拉到跟我們這邊相對比較歧異的地步"},{"start":10812.831,"end":10830.57,"text":"這個大概我只能說有關於相關的政策其實這部分我們會持續的傾聽大家意見來做溝通來做努力但是很多議題他可能必須要一起來做考量這第一點那第二點回到今天的主題其實剛才也有很多先進在指教說大館會議說你危險"},{"start":10832.712,"end":10848.749,"text":"你是不是應該要廢止或者說大法官說你抵觸憲法或者是其他但是剛才其實專家學者也有跟各位報告大法官會議其實他很明顯的很確定的講"},{"start":10849.85,"end":10869.367,"text":"他就這個公衛法適應細則他在比例原則上面他認為是OK的但是他認為他違反了法律保留原則然後兩年限期失效也因為這個原因我們優先處理的這個議題把既有的法律秩序帶到母法裡面來符合大法官會議的規定"},{"start":10871.308,"end":10884.918,"text":"剛才大家也提到很多包括監察院人權委員會專家的鑑定或法庭之友甚至於我要跟各位報告其實如果各位去仔細看大綱會議有非常多的大綱"},{"start":10886.159,"end":10901.771,"text":"協同意見書有不同意見書有部分協同不同部分不同意見書每一份都值得我們細細的來思考現在的少數意見不代表將來不會變成主流意見但是最勞動部做一個行政部門要依法行政結果憲法法庭認為他"},{"start":10903.812,"end":10922.487,"text":"違反法律保留原則有限期失效的狀況底下我們優先要處理這個議題至於裡面大家所指教的各方的意見其實都沒有對錯問題而是都值得我們來做政策面的討論和思考但我只是在強調說從勞動部的角度我們在考慮這些問題的時候不會只"},{"start":10926.05,"end":10946.507,"text":"一個問題一個問題去看因為單一問題去看會產生很多連動的狀況比如說假設我們在勞基法那一邊在工會的權利裡面我們要拜託工會朋友給我們很多的把關可是各位也知道大官對這件事情也有很多不同的意見我們也在"},{"start":10947.808,"end":10963.43,"text":"看看要怎麼樣子整體面的去做處理所以我還是最重要這樣跟各位報告勞動部因應大官這樣一個違憲的案子我們針對他判決違憲的意旨在有限的時間先做了這樣一個修法"},{"start":10963.891,"end":10987.519,"text":"那至於其他的大家所指教的問題有些是過去以來一直都有說明那有些東西也許我們可以大家再更open mind一點看看用什麼方式或整體性的來做處理但就勞動部的角度而言我個人還是覺得說我們必須整體面就勞動三權的行使然後整個的相應的配套做去做完整的考量包括說"},{"start":10989.139,"end":11006.134,"text":"是不是人數 因為其實單純人數也有要求多的也有要求少的 個數這個東西包括他的法定職長跟地位都是需要一體整體性的去考量我還是從勞動部的角度再次感謝各位先進過去這段時間對勞動部的批評和指教"},{"start":11010.538,"end":11024.126,"text":"有一些可以討論的更仔細或溝通的更順利的地方我們也不願意再持續傾聽大家的聲音那未來在整個勞動的政策或未來立法的路徑的選擇和形塑上面再跟大家一起努力謝謝"},{"start":11033.274,"end":11060.652,"text":"我想這個法要修可能有它的急迫性你再辦一個公聽會後我想大家還是要考慮怎麼來修那六之一嘛他用六之一把實行細則要達到法律的位階當然大家有不同的意見我是心臟外科醫生王振旭是腫瘤科醫生我們醫療的這一塊是"},{"start":11063.448,"end":11083.063,"text":"公會 公司的公還有協會 還有學會學運的學 喔 那個更亂不爽又去組一個 不爽又組一個每一天到晚在繳 繳會會 繳不完突然間要碰一下就知道出來了我參加才有20個會所以 喔 真是人啊所以你如果像這樣 知道一大堆"},{"start":11090.799,"end":11115.91,"text":"大家手都一個火,昨天大家都高情高悲,好嘛六天斷不掉啦最後一個我講我們COVID-19的時候,三年讓台灣的重大打擊那這次關稅也是重大打擊COVID-19那三年,我們勞工朋友勞動部有推一個,我要跟他們肯定推一個就是勞工有十萬塊銀行救急,不用離席"},{"start":11117.423,"end":11121.007,"text":"就用中央電子資金來貼利息150萬的都可以去簽10萬塊的,不過只有1500多億1500多億3年,要行,但是那些利息是"},{"start":11134.002,"end":11144.47,"text":"現在我們林基金來付,付30多億,所以洛陽坡也是很認真在替我們的勞工所以這個順時萬變,我們的產業有那麼的堅強,我看起來是蠻脆弱的蠻沒有韌性的啦,所以不太簡單,所以大家還是要和諧啦,看要怎麼做"},{"start":11155.185,"end":11183.133,"text":"好 那我們做以下結論依據立法院之前刑事法規定委員會應提出公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考我們會把各位的寶貴意見跟書面的資料匯編成冊 分送給本院的全體委員及與會的政府機關代表寫者專家遊說代表參閱"},{"start":11185.799,"end":11193.645,"text":"今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見我們這一次的公聽會到此結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"160034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712b7dba86551ae231a51898f861229cf33dffdecc4c49be5a70b3b91af4fa2cf135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:23:16 - 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鄰近的日本他們對於工會組成的條件是相當寬鬆的"},{"start":157.079,"end":174.053,"text":"但是並沒有發生並沒有發生牢牢相爭的問題所以蔡大法官認為行政機關不應該對廠廠企業工會的這個成立額外增加技術性的限制這是不對的那蔡大法官也預判預測到如果立法機關未來直接"},{"start":174.753,"end":189.167,"text":"把施行記者裡面的相關這個不一定頒到母法施行記者頒到母法上去那會有兩個效應第一個就是背離公衛法在2000年制定的修法的這個意旨第二個會嚴重打壓公衛制度在我國的發展"},{"start":190.007,"end":205.59,"text":"那結果行政院竟然就這樣做了把這個有疑慮的條文直接從施行記者搬到這個母法去交差了事難道要立法院要變成這個蔡大法官口中所謂的不能夠認清規定危害公會獨立性的立法機關嗎所以我呼籲行政院要懸崖勒馬把這個離譜的這個修法草案撤回去否則我覺得台灣的勞工人權現在已經很多勞權的問題有爭議了那再一次會把勞工的人權再次被政府糟蹋了好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971252a22451890eca3f39fb4699fde53261dffdecc4c49be5a7d83dd2eb1f7004fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:11:53 - 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謝謝鍾建平委員的一個提案報告我們現在就請財政部的莊部長進行這個會議"}]}},{"id":"160031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97124f7e71681b1107fa39fb4699fde53261dffdecc4c49be5a738579c4e31f1111f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:07:30 - 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謝謝主席各位委員 各位先進 大家好我想我針對納稅者權利保護法第21條條文的修正做以下的提案說明監察院在111年裁調之第13號已指出打贏稅法官司的當事人反應法令規定而陷入無限輪迴的司法救濟的困境並侵害賦稅人權"},{"start":28.47,"end":53.64,"text":"卻稅捐基增法第21條關於核課期間的規定議裁非故意逃漏稅捐者之核課時間為5年故意者為7年的規定然現行納稅者權利保護法之規定卻未逾15年未能確定其因納稅而者方可不得再行核課因而造成我們民眾萬年稅單的困擾"},{"start":54.935,"end":82.144,"text":"此外許多學者專家也都提出相同的意見更何況我們在行政程序法第131條的規定公法請求權時效也不過5年刑事妥數審判法也規定8年內要完成訴訟本法所定的15年不只破壞稅監激增法及行政程序法的原有法律體系以及對人民的時效利益保護嚴重的利益失衡"},{"start":83.505,"end":101.723,"text":"納保法是用來保護我們的納稅義務人但是現在卻是在法院撤銷處分後還要再花至少15年的時間等國稅局隨時去查我想因為法院只是撤銷復查的決定以及訴願的決定而非課稅處分"},{"start":103.064,"end":130.666,"text":"所以當稅監計政處只要重新做成複查的決定當事人可能又要進行重新的司法救濟沒完沒了所以即使打贏稅法官司還是會輪回萬年稅單的一個困境稅監訴訟我認為應仿效刑事妥數審判法才是納保法的立法目的與精神所以我將現行的條文規定自法院做成撤銷或變更裁判"},{"start":131.326,"end":146.652,"text":"之日起逾十五年未能確定其因納稅額者修改為自法院作成撤銷或變更裁判之日起逾七年未能確定其因納稅額者這樣的一個文字修訂敬請各位委員支持好 謝謝我們現在會請莊家斌委員"}]}},{"id":"160030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97121b247b81e5c49cbf39fb4699fde53261dffdecc4c49be5a79164ec7d2db186c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:06:04 - 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最少一億次的這樣子中獎機會啦所以我把它補起來 把因改 把得改成因就這個案子 就是這麼簡單 第一個案子第二個案子有關於小規模的營業人那麼已經75年來 到現在114年 快40年了我們都沒有調整 所以我把20萬調整為30萬這是第二個案子"},{"start":51.44,"end":80.514,"text":"我的第三個案子呢是有關於這個納稅者權力保護法的修法我們希望能夠第一個辦公聽會第二個外部的專家應該最少二分之一這是兩大的重點我想我三個案子就這樣跟各位做簡單的說明請各位能夠支持 謝謝謝謝賴委員所以我們請林志明委員做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160055","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712911ec58e2fb96d5b51898f861229cf3372c2a43b2ce79c5010cd3a5187eac2bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:09:25 - 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歡迎"},{"start":17.95,"end":33.28,"text":"首先非常謝謝主席還有衛王委員會召開今天的公聽會讓我們有機會來多聽聽各位勞工代表還有工會的先進的意見其實我們也知道依照國工會法現行的規定"},{"start":34.221,"end":55.66,"text":"我們目前的工會其實有分成企業工會產業工會還有職業工會等三種大類型可是我們也知道如果更細分的話那企業工會裡面還可以至少包括有企業工會廠廠工會關西企業工會跟金融集團的企業工會等等"},{"start":56.62,"end":84.496,"text":"這個工會類型那麼多我們也都了解這個不是問題的核心我們等一下會點出問題的核心在哪裡包括說這類型的這個不同的工會裡面到底他法律上的保障權利在哪裡這個才是我們所認知的這個核心的問題那以企業工會相較於產業跟職業工會來說的話我國目前其實在法律上對於企業工會的保障是最多最強的"},{"start":85.876,"end":109.655,"text":"包括說企業工會獨有的權利有會務工價剛剛理事長有提到成立以後馬上就可以進行這個團體協約協商進行調整四項調整的權利各項勞基法的同意權陪同勞檢的權利還有很重要的就是在支付會裡面等相關的會議有保障的席次這些的核心"},{"start":110.896,"end":124.462,"text":"包括就是有剛剛所提到的誰有資格來請會務公價誰能有發動勞資爭議還有要求團體協商的權利誰有勞基法的同意權還有誰有各種法定會議的代表權"},{"start":125.56,"end":140.661,"text":"那今天我們這個廠廠工會的爭議除了工會組織的範圍跟籌組的要件的同時其實就是來自於這個法律上的權力要怎麼來分配舉例來說光是勞基法的同意權依照勞動部的含釋"},{"start":142.419,"end":170.406,"text":"廠廠工會就得有比企業工會有更優先的同意權那關係企業工會跟金融集團的控股工會就沒有勞基金法的同意權這個就是核心之所在在實務上各種協商的資格工價能不能申請還有各種法定會議席次要怎麼分配當然就更是各種爭議的來源所以其實在這次工會的修工會法的修法裡面當然勞動部"},{"start":172.406,"end":192.337,"text":"依據這個憲法法庭的判決會希望盡快處理將廠廠工會定義跟要件從私刑細則裡面把它提升到這個法律的位階可是在這個過程裡面期待今天我們的勞動部的長官需要說明清楚兩個核心的問題"},{"start":193.237,"end":212.379,"text":"第一個要如何提升工會組織率還有強化集體協商第二個部分各類型工會的法律保障權益要如何分配這是剛剛所提到的核心問題就是今天要麻煩我們勞動部出席的長官需要說明清楚的部分以上"}]}},{"id":"160039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971215e267d9dcf943c151898f861229cf33dffdecc4c49be5a7cb54f3cad6a66c335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:38:52 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預算獨立 會計獨立講白話一點這個單位"},{"start":82.659,"end":107.388,"text":"可以自己來決定誰來誰走自己編預算還要設帳記帳計算盈虧但是想大的盈利事業底下的基層廠廠怎麼可能可以符合以上這些規定所以我是想問說台灣有哪一些工廠哪一些基層單位有這種權限這不是在限制我們工會成立而是在設定讓大家連這個門基本的進入門檻都沒有"},{"start":111.129,"end":140.374,"text":"所以回想起之前這個華航修護廠或者是漢翔航空沙路廠他們的勞工行使自己的權利組成工會但就是因為不符合人事獨立預算獨立還有會計獨立這三個條件被勞動部撤銷講明白一點他們就是一群在第一線非常辛苦努力工作的基層勞工想要團結想要保護自己可是換來的呢卻是被政府蓋章說不合法"},{"start":141.435,"end":163.654,"text":"勞動部來當我們基層勞工勞權的兇手這個早就有以前這些前科了所以憲法法庭判決這條違反法律保留原則要在兩年內廢止結果我們勞動部不但沒有廢還變本加厲要直接把它寫進工會法第六條之一這根本就是打著修法的名義繼續來打壓勞工所以我是想問"},{"start":166.576,"end":178.105,"text":"我們基層勞工祥組工會是破壞公共秩序嗎是威脅到國家安全嗎還是侵犯了誰的自由嗎如果都不是為什麼要設這麼多不合理的門檻這麼做很明顯剛剛也有學者講到了不只是違反聯合國兩公約也違反了ILO第87號第98號的公約更現實的是根據統計我們現在台灣的工會組織率在下降中從8%"},{"start":196.959,"end":223.089,"text":"繼續往下掉所以勞動部早就應該要檢討如何讓勞工更有組織的力量結果我們卻是反其道而行把這條路堵得更死這也難怪基層勞工在分享一個比喻這不是幫助勞工是把勞工的嘴巴捆起來還說是幫他們戴口罩對比即將到來的五一勞動節真的是讓人感到相當的悲哀各位我們現在知道"},{"start":223.669,"end":244.771,"text":"許許多多各行各業勞動條件非常的不容易工時長壓力大過勞的問題嚴重當然包括我們基層的醫護人員大家想要有個公會做後盾是天經地義的事情而民主法治的政府最應該做的事情不是幫大家設門檻設障礙是把這些不合理的制度來拆掉所以"},{"start":245.271,"end":254.538,"text":"今天最後就是想懇請各位官員委員關心勞工的朋友千萬不要把這條二法變成正式的法條這不是單純的技術問題這是攸關每一個基層勞工的團結權發聲權還有生存權好 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"160047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712f28a43ef2c99536451898f861229cf3372c2a43b2ce79c5047742d001cea1c075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:54:13 - 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親愛的家人 大家早安"},{"start":18.482,"end":36.605,"text":"今天很感谢大家白忙之中一起来讨论就工会法的第六条之一修法的议题提供以下的几个建议首先我们针对行政院版本草案子是否违法"},{"start":37.265,"end":40.587,"text":"結社自由與團結權我們必須回到憲法與國際人權法的基本原則根據國際勞工組織第87號與第98號的公約工人應有自由成立及加入自己選擇的工會之權利不得受任意限制我們我國112年的"},{"start":66.824,"end":92.829,"text":"宪判第七号判决明确指出过去工会法实行细则第二条第一二项的要求常常必须具有独立人士议算会计等要件并未经法律明确的收权及对结社自由构成重大的限制"},{"start":94.089,"end":97.571,"text":"違法憲法第23條法律保留的原則因此宣告違法並在2025年5月19號失效然而行政院版本修法仍繼續始終以組織結構限制勞工組織權的思維無異於章於違憲的內容"},{"start":120.623,"end":137.731,"text":"由命令升格為法例恐章引發新一輪的違憲的爭議我們不能忽略此列限制早已造成時機的侵害以華航修護廠公案為例"},{"start":140.473,"end":158.228,"text":"該工會早於2015年經桃園縣政府核准成立卻遭企業總工會以不屈獨立預算與會計由提出申願經兩度的撤銷 三次的重審"},{"start":160.23,"end":188.272,"text":"長達8年人未能安穩存在最終透過憲法輸送才確認原規定違憲根據勞動部的資料自2014年在2021年的期間企業工會成立案件中被勞動主管機構撤回或撤銷比例高達28.6%其中數位理由與不符獨立要件的有關"},{"start":189.413,"end":218.613,"text":"這個說明在現行的制度下勞工組織工會常因應組織設計而卡死形同由雇主決定你能不能有工會再談到是否限制同一個工會只能有一個廠工會以高科技產業為例例如我們台積電或台中中油台灣中油其中同事就跨各縣市跨科技管理"},{"start":220.055,"end":234.154,"text":"倉儲物流等不同的部門工作條件與勞資關係不同如果限制只有三個工會第一導致部分的廠工缺雜有效的代表也使工會內部"},{"start":236.376,"end":245.761,"text":"過於龐大無法稀釋反映到個別權利根據日本的經驗七月部一場的一個工會來通過聯合協議會協商統合勞方意見"},{"start":251.804,"end":272.361,"text":"不仅为达成的混乱反而强化了工会功能与工人参与率反观台湾2022年度全体劳工工会参与率剩下7.4%远低于OECD的国家平均16.4%制度"},{"start":275.083,"end":293.193,"text":"保障真是重要原因之一最后我们应重视国家人权委员会针对本案所提出的鉴定意见不得章制度设计合法性乍临于宪法保障"},{"start":294.454,"end":319.791,"text":"結設自由與勞工自主性因此本次修法因明定廠廠定義與勞工實際工作場所為核心不應再強調會計或預算的制度放寬縣市或不同的事業單位成立工會限制建議多層次工會協助架構促進勞資對話與工會自治"},{"start":323.833,"end":338.645,"text":"主席們還有我們各位專家還有我們政府希望這一次的修我們的修法會落實關於我們的違法的本質真正落實讓勞工有自主"},{"start":340.167,"end":355.384,"text":"組織有力的代表有效的協商才能保障勞工資方我們共同為我們台灣的經濟發展也讓大家有保障的工作有求助的管道以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160066","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160066","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712e321910adb4eeadb51898f861229cf3372c2a43b2ce79c5056c4274c4566c6a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:31:07 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意識記錄透明度都缺雜意識性的標準也許多紛爭並非立場不同 而是程序不清 溝通不良導致正午應設計一套標準化的意識流程模組"},{"start":218.44,"end":229.296,"text":"並協助導入電子投票線上與系統提供出席率表決的效率現代科技早已經大幅改善所以我們設計管理也是要一定的跟科技"},{"start":233.522,"end":245.833,"text":"有關政府不能再就是觀望討論再討論這樣子的工具無法就是對我們的公益大學的落實再來關於就是各個合作我們希望各個區的長期習慣以最低價的標準來做唯一的準則導致就"},{"start":257.723,"end":258.805,"text":"修繕的品質與服務就是沒辦法管控所以整合地方社區的保全啊機電清潔等的業者評估記錄讓管理委員會參考數據"},{"start":273.206,"end":281.969,"text":"做出決策同時也應提供簡明讓引導基本的企業協助社區避免資訊落差而產生紛爭另外長期就是我們疏忽的問題就是公社點機制的漏洞依法依據法律"},{"start":295.934,"end":316.105,"text":"建商應該交屋時完成碩士的驗收但時機中場是交接的草率資料也不齊全導致遺留未完成的行刑這次問題在新城屋交屋時但其後果卻未達到我們10年的租屋來的承擔建議政府會"},{"start":319.227,"end":346.537,"text":"第三方的专业验证的制度并建立点交文件的登录平台提供建商履约透明化也保障住户的权利最后谈到制度的改喆我们希望说以我们的法条本身调整还有更应有整体性的制度设计政府应透过补助和培训的机制辅助我们在地的"},{"start":347.897,"end":366.226,"text":"业务管理协会或者土地公会等专业的团体为社区辅导与支持的角色并协助进行制度的建设财务规划与管理训练所以让我们的社区不是单打独斗"},{"start":367.166,"end":373.33,"text":"我們在30年前的公益大廈的管理條例開啟了社區自主管理的時代但30年後我們今天必須我們要重視社區治理的結構的困難而提供資源與支撐我們期待政府能從財務"},{"start":388.918,"end":417.179,"text":"法律 制度 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":507.336,"end":507.499,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":886.657,"end":886.738,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":960.435,"end":960.618,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1005.486,"end":1008.419,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1048.462,"end":1051.723,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1725.681,"end":1725.822,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1815.861,"end":1825.386,"text":"好我們現在請主秘報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員12人已租法定人數現在開會"},{"start":1828.989,"end":1854.449,"text":"進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第三會期經濟委員會第七次全體委員會議事錄時間114年4月9日星期三9時至13時29分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員邱怡穎等13人列席委員許巧欣等23人列席人員經濟部部長郭志輝國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜清等主席謝昭基委員依奉"},{"start":1855.129,"end":1874.184,"text":"包事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長及國家發展委員會主任委員就國際經貿情勢變化提出協助國內傳統產業及中小企業因應對策進行報告並被質詢經濟部部長郭志輝及國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜清報告後委員邱毅英等"},{"start":1875.807,"end":1893.773,"text":"24 提出質詢 經由國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜卿等即席答覆決定一 登記發言委員除不在場者外 區域均已發言完畢 詢答結束二 委員徐欣盈 陳昭明及劉建國所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報三 書面質詢的未及答覆部分 請相關單位一週內書面答覆並複製本會 散會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1898.985,"end":1914.996,"text":"好我們146等一下再處理那我們現在進行報告事項請宣讀報告事項邀請經濟部部長農業部部長及財政部部長就因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁畜業及關鍵產業競爭力之協助措施進行報告並被質詢宣傳品"},{"start":1919.636,"end":1945.643,"text":"本日議程排定因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁牧業以及相關鍵產業競爭力之協助措施進行報告並被質詢那我們因為昨天晚上我們知道這個情勢又有很大的轉變那川普宣布這個關稅台灣暫緩90天也就是三個月那"},{"start":1946.483,"end":1968.012,"text":"所以這個情勢的改變現在經濟部會把他們的報告有做調整等一下才會送過來所以我們等一下這個部長這邊就是做最後的報告經濟部部長那我們現在先介紹我們今天列席的機關首長首先是我們經濟部部長郭智輝郭部長好其實部長那我們農業部部長陳俊記陳部長"},{"start":1976.493,"end":2001.293,"text":"好跟我們財政部次長李慶華李次長好在後面好那我們今天陪同與會的還有我們產業發展署署長邱求惠邱署長好中小及新創企業署署長李冠志李署長國際貿易署署長劉威廉劉署長"},{"start":2003.417,"end":2032.031,"text":"那我們農糧署署長姚志源姚署長漁業署署長王茂誠王署長動植物防疫檢疫署署長徐榮斌徐署長農業金融署署長李聰勇好那我們國庫署副署長林秀燕稅庫署副署長倪立新"},{"start":2033.902,"end":2037.086,"text":"公務署組長陳文玲和輸出入銀行的總經理謝富華好那我們現在就開始來進行報告那我們是不是先請我們農業部我們陳俊記部長報告"},{"start":2063.965,"end":2082.218,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好今天很榮幸能夠代表農業部列席經濟委員會以下緊究因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁需及關鍵產業競爭力之協助措施做專題報告"},{"start":2084.636,"end":2112.01,"text":"美國是我國非常重要的貿易夥伴那去年我國有22.3%的進口農產品是來自於美國那進口值大概是36.9億美元是美國第八大的海外市場那主要輸台的品項包括了黃豆、玉米、小麥及牛肉等那在出口面方面美國在113年也是我國農產品第一大的海外市場"},{"start":2113.03,"end":2127.243,"text":"那台灣消防美國的農產品出口值約8.9億美元我國有大概17.6%的出口農產品是外銷到美國主要的品項包括了花卉、水產品及多種農產品那"},{"start":2129.861,"end":2153.727,"text":"依據WTO的資料美國農產品的簡單平均關稅是5%那台灣農產品的簡單平均關稅是16.6%那如果是以農產品的貿易加權平均關稅來計算的時候那台灣跟美國分別是9.3跟4.0這是一個基本的關稅的一個稅額"},{"start":2155.808,"end":2174.034,"text":"那113年我國對農產品出口值8.9億裡面那美國我想大家都知道美國在4月2號公布對外加徵32%的對等關稅那當時我們所評估的主要的受影響產業包括花卉類的蝴蝶蘭"},{"start":2175.254,"end":2202.599,"text":"茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀、鮪魚等是比較有可能受到衝擊的這六個品項但是大家也知道昨天晚上特別是整個的一個關稅提高又延後了90天才來執行但是這個延後的過程中我想我們還是必須持續關注這個產業的可能的一個衝擊並做更好的一個實踐的一個準備"},{"start":2203.559,"end":2218.352,"text":"那第三個部分是要跟各位說明的是對等關稅除了增加我國產業的一個負擔那我們持續的做相關的整體評估那從整體面來講我想整個關稅的提高不管"},{"start":2219.353,"end":2241.683,"text":"現在的暫停90%或者是以後的可能的任何調整那我們都必須考慮到以下幾個比較重要的一個可能性第一個就是美國消費市場會不會因為關稅的提高而有部分的萎縮因為高關稅的產品對於農產品的價格的上漲那很有可能導致美國消費的購買意願的"},{"start":2243.484,"end":2260.225,"text":"的降低跟數量的萎縮這是我想我們第一個特別要注意的第二個部分就是原來蘇美的貨品消往國內會消往國內造成排擠因為關稅的一個提高蘇美關稅蘇美的產品如果受到相關的"},{"start":2262.267,"end":2276.507,"text":"這些棄單或是轉單的時候那原來蘇美的農產品就會回到我們國內那可能會造成市場的這些其他產業的排擠所以農產業的部分這個部分我想也要特別注意第三個部分是"},{"start":2278.143,"end":2294.504,"text":"關稅如果繼續實施的時候那相對的也有可能貿易商會把這個關稅轉嫁到我們的生產者那也會造成可能的一個農民的一個售價受到壓抑那最後一個就是"},{"start":2295.385,"end":2317.533,"text":"我們很有可能被競爭對惹國的殘命所替代那這個替代可能會因為不同國家的關稅的差異性而言這是整體的一個評估那以下也非常簡單的針對六大比較可能受到衝擊的品項做一些說明第一個部分是蝴蝶藍的部分那我們的蝴蝶藍主要的競爭對手國是荷蘭"},{"start":2319.929,"end":2336.586,"text":"依照原先的關稅的一個調高那相對的歐盟的關稅是20%但是相對的蝴蝶類有它特殊的一個所謂的接力生產模式那雖然說短時間本身可能會造成一些觀望"},{"start":2337.347,"end":2358.178,"text":"但是整體來講也會可能因為高關稅而導致被美國進口商抽單或是導致貿易量減少的這些風險那第二個部分是茶葉那茶葉本身我們國內生產大概是一萬兩千到一萬四千噸那我們每一年也從國外進口了將近兩萬七千噸到兩萬八千噸左右"},{"start":2360.839,"end":2376.08,"text":"那我們台灣最厲害的就是我們的拼配技術所以我們輸到美國的這些茶葉最主要是拼配的這些這些商業用茶跟我們國內主流的這些精品茶是有一些有一些差異的而且"},{"start":2377.922,"end":2399.2,"text":"這樣的一個差異最主要的影響可能會在貿易商跟我們的進口商那基本上我們的整個自給率還是不夠的所以對國內的茶農本身它相對的衝擊性會比較小一點但是我們必須持續關注那毛豆的部分我們最主要的競爭對手國是國家是中國"},{"start":2399.901,"end":2419.133,"text":"但是毛豆我們最大的輸出國是日本那大概只有19%左右是輸到美國的部分那這個部分我想我們後續也必須要去關注這些關稅的一個消長來調整我們的一個相關的因應作為無過於是"},{"start":2420.68,"end":2444.259,"text":"我們非常重要的養殖產品的漁業現在蘇美的大概是79%主要的競爭對手是中國還有印尼還有泰國這幾個部分依現在之前公布的關稅來講他們的關稅都比我們高但是我們必須要去注意的就是還是一樣因為高關稅導致進口業者可能的這些"},{"start":2446.081,"end":2454.757,"text":"停止下定或是抽單的一個情形而影響到整個的一個無過於的產業鏈那鬼頭島最主要是一個捕撈漁種那主要的競爭對手國是秘魯"},{"start":2458.612,"end":2484.081,"text":"厄瓜多跟越南那其中秘魯跟厄瓜多等中南美它的關稅只有基礎關稅10%那我們評估鬼頭刀相對我們更應該密切去注意它的一個衝擊那很有可能因為關稅的關係而導致美國市長會轉單到中南美洲那最後一個是鱸魚的部分那因為鱸魚有它多樣性的生產的種類跟它的國家"},{"start":2484.781,"end":2500.87,"text":"那可能的競爭對手國包括了中國、巴西那由於如魚主要的出國澳洲是大中我們最主要出國澳中所以相對的它的這些緩衝力就會比較大第四個部分要跟各位報告"},{"start":2501.97,"end":2519.556,"text":"我們現在是目前是以美國提高我們關稅32%的情境之下去做相關的產業的一個支持的一個措施那這個支持的措施大概分為三面向六大措施那第一個部分包括金融措施那由於可能可以預見"},{"start":2520.656,"end":2545.37,"text":"這些受衝擊的產業它的資金可能會造成一些壓力所以農業部特別提供了農業貸款的一個加碼的補貼那貸款的利息以一年一年算以一年及最高1.5%的利息差的一個補貼那最高的貸款的額度是五千萬但是這個五千萬可以因為產業個別的需求而做適度的調整"},{"start":2546.07,"end":2567.336,"text":"那第二個面向是在產業競爭力的面向我想我們面對的是關稅的一個提高但是它可能也是一個機會能夠讓我們的產業能夠重新調整我們的體質所以我們在支持方案裡面我們也特別重視了整個產業競爭力的提升包括我們更要去強化我們的整個相關的一個冷鏈的一個競爭力"},{"start":2569.597,"end":2591.119,"text":"那第二個部分是也希望能夠透過一些經費的支持能夠加速產業的價值轉型那同時獎勵我們農產品加工價值的開發然後提高產品的一個品牌的辨識度那接下來我們也會積極的輔導我們的業者去取得國內外的各種那個認驗證的"},{"start":2593.041,"end":2618.741,"text":"的標章然後透過這樣標章能夠讓市場的辨識度對我們臺灣農產品的辨識度能夠更高所以我們也會輔導越者去去取得像GlobeJAP或者是HACCP生產端的HACCP的一個認證甚至於這些產品的這個HALA的認證等那同時我們也希望去輔導外銷極端產區的一個導入極端履歷的一個認證"},{"start":2621.303,"end":2644.103,"text":"那第三個部分也是非常重要的就是一個開拓多元的市場那根據在短時間之內因為關稅的一個提高那我們絕對不能因為關稅的提高而放棄美國市場反而我們更應該努力的去維持美國的一個市場因為畢竟美國是一個我們非常重要的貿易夥伴而且是我們重要的輸出國"},{"start":2645.684,"end":2667.597,"text":"產品的輸出國所以我們希望透過擴大海外的一個行銷跟所謂的外銷獎勵的方式來協助我們的農產品持續的進軍美國那同時我們在這個時間我們也鼓勵我們這些可能受到衝擊的這些農產品也能夠開發其他的高端市場所以在這次的外銷獎勵我們也一併將"},{"start":2670.579,"end":2696.918,"text":"銷往其他國家的這些農產品也給予適度的外交獎勵那更重要的是我們也會更有系統的去參加國際的相關的展覽希望說能夠連結國外的通路讓我們的產品能夠持續的對外來行銷那第二個部分是有關於國內市場的一個行銷那國內市場的行銷最主要就是在短時間之內可能因為你的訂單受阻"},{"start":2697.458,"end":2722.747,"text":"部分的產品會回到國內來所以我們也希望在這樣的一個情況之下也希望能夠擴大我們國內的這些行銷的一些活動然後開拓多元的通路同時結合企業餐飲飯店等辦理這種跨域的聯合的一個行銷活動希望大家一起能夠協助我們的產業能夠度過這樣的一個難關然後讓我們的產業體質更好那我想最後我想"},{"start":2723.909,"end":2750.368,"text":"農業部將密切來掌握美國的對等關稅的最新的一個發展然後持續與產業保持聯絡不管它的關稅是不是暫緩了90天我想我們相關的產業的座談我們還是會進行希望說能夠透過座談聽取產業的這些長期穩定永續的這些產業發展的這些建議那我想會透過這樣的一個座談吸取這樣的一個建議來持續開拓我們的多元市場"},{"start":2751.429,"end":2765.947,"text":"來維護我們農漁業的一個經營業者的權利那以上報告敬請不吝指正 謝謝好 謝謝我們農業部陳部長那我們下一位是不是先請財政部李慶華次長報告"},{"start":2777.847,"end":2794.524,"text":"主席各位先请大家好那今天贵文会邀请我们相关部会就因应美国关税政策以维持我国农业续产业以及关键产业竞争力的协助措施来进行报告那我们以下请就涉及本部业务部分简要说明如下进行指教"},{"start":2795.137,"end":2821.428,"text":"那行政院已经对于美国加征关税的这个政策呢提供了我国出口产业协助方面呢在提出因应美国关税我国出口供应链支持的方案那财政部也配合这个方案呢办理的部分呢还有相关的协助措施我们简要说明如下第一个首先我们来到金融支持方面那我们会提供出口厂商的新台币2000亿元贸易融资利息的优惠针对这个具备出口美国"},{"start":2822.048,"end":2835.479,"text":"外销时机或者是它的关联产业的厂商呢透过这个方案可以减轻资金成本的负担也就是我们会提供我国出口厂商贸易融资带放率年利率减码1%那每家厂商呢每年"},{"start":2837.941,"end":2867.521,"text":"最多可以减收利息500万元那如果是中小企业或者是经主管机关认定受到这次美国关税政策冲击较大的厂商我们的年利率减码会更提高到1.5%那每家厂商每一年可减收的利息最高可以达600万元同时我们另外提供了出口厂商投保1650亿元的输出保险费用的减免也就是透过减轻厂商投保输出保险对国外的买主"},{"start":2867.921,"end":2888.573,"text":"的徵信費以及保險費的負擔呢最低以百分之就是百分之一一折計收那鼓勵廠商來開發新的客戶以及新的市場第二個我們在公股銀行方面也提出相關的協助措施如果是企業貸款戶呢受到這次關稅因素的衝擊營運呢可以依照這個我們經濟部協助企業辦理銀行債權債務協商的作業要點"},{"start":2893.015,"end":2919.814,"text":"恰原来的这个贷款公股银行呢来协商申请还缴本息或者是展延借款的年期那由各银行依照个案的情形来审着处理希望能够舒缓产业的资金调度以及这个营运周转的需求另外我们公股银行也利用自有的资金来办理中小及微型企业的振兴融资方案这个方案我们持续推动中到去年的年底呢我们要今年的2月我们提供1.5兆的资金"},{"start":2921.255,"end":2946.807,"text":"为中小微的企业来稳健经营创新以及转型升级提供金融的支持第三个部分是在租税协助方面租税协助方面目前我们已经提供相关的租税优惠来支持我国的出口供应链的产业包含了现行的产业创新条例针对各产业提供多项的租税优惠措施例如研发投底制机投底还有关键产业的研发先进制程设备投资体检"},{"start":2947.467,"end":2971.131,"text":"以及投资新创事业的租税优惠还有未分配于实质投资的减除等等我们希望能够协助产业升级转型提升企业的竞争力那此外呢我们因应这个数位以及绿色双轴转型呢协助企业因应国际经贸情势的转变行政院在去年已经提出了产创条例的修正草案延长了十条之一至今投底的这个"},{"start":2971.751,"end":2994.588,"text":"施行期间以及这扩大适用范围还有提高了支出的上限同时也修正了第23条之一23条之二我们鼓励资金来抑制新创事业的适用条件未来本部也将持续关注产业的发展以及国际的情势配合这个产业政策检讨租税优惠的措施给予企业支持以及维持国家经济成长的动能"},{"start":2995.268,"end":3005.386,"text":"那這次在註稅措施方面呢如果有企業因為受到美國關稅衝擊有繳稅困難的話那依照我們稅監監法的規定呢那些人如果受到這個"},{"start":3006.801,"end":3011.662,"text":"政策衝擊產生這個財務的困難不能在稅捐繳納期間內一次繳清繳稅款的話呢也可以依照我們稅捐基金法的規定呢向我們各個該管的基金機關來申請延期或者是分期繳納稅款那第四個部分呢我們也協助來降低企業的這個行政成本在如果是保稅區的通關"},{"start":3028.966,"end":3054.533,"text":"原则上我们全部免装这个装箱单也就是从今年四月份开始保税业者如果按月汇报的相关案件呢不再需要减负装箱单那出货每个月只需要汇整申报一份报单就可以了那这个部分可以减轻这个这个课税区保税业者跟保税区跟课税区之间供应链出货的案件呢能够降低他的行政成本"},{"start":3055.553,"end":3074.114,"text":"经过统计包含科学园区这些相关的园区总共有1224家的业者每月可以减少制作约20万份的装箱单以及10万小时的作业时间可以降低业者的行政成本在行政成本方面我们另外采行扩大实施海端远端的集合"},{"start":3074.995,"end":3093.255,"text":"这个部分也是从今年4月开始,针对这些园区场科学园区的相关产业,我们也会透过保税智慧服务平台扩大实施远端集合,来减少监管海关的实地查核,降低行政的干预,有助减轻业者的法尊成本。"},{"start":3094.196,"end":3120.539,"text":"最后财政部还是会密切关注美方后续相关的措施依据行政院整体规划的方案就各产业主管机关评估产业所受的影响以及国际的情势给予我国受冲击产业企业相关的支援以上报告敬请各位委员指教谢谢好 谢谢我们财政部理事长最后我们是请经济部郭志辉部长报告"},{"start":3132.796,"end":3161.662,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早今天承蒙貴委員會邀請就因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁畜牧業以及關鍵產業競爭力之協助措施進行報告受到美國關稅新政影響我國產業受到不同程度的衝擊經濟部將全力協助受影響業者因應調整敬請各位委員不吝嗇"},{"start":3163.339,"end":3163.963,"text":"美國川普總統於"},{"start":3166.958,"end":3194.632,"text":"114年4月2日宣布对包括我国在内的全国多国实施对等关税政策原定4月9日起针对全国180个国家加征对等关税10%到50%不等之税率其中对我国课征税率高达32%但川普总统4月9日宣布全数对等关税措施暂缓实施90天"},{"start":3196.032,"end":3216.096,"text":"暫停期間針對所有的國家將課徵稅率降至10%唯有對中國課徵125%半導體、藥品、銅以及木材則尚未公布關稅稅率故不在這次的課稅範圍之內我國作為出國導向型的經濟體美國宣布對我"},{"start":3221.53,"end":3238.475,"text":"国家增10%对等关税亦可能对台湾工业产品出口国内产值以及就业造成影响113年台湾对美国出口高达1114亿美元占总体出口23%"},{"start":3240.496,"end":3264.521,"text":"對美貿易順差則來到649億美元我國主要出口到美國的前30項產品佔我國對美國出口總值的72%其中以資通訊電子零組件為主佔對美出口達65.4%其餘汽車零組件扣件機械零件自行車運動器材家具"},{"start":3265.121,"end":3293.859,"text":"售价制品等传统产业占产品的5.8%即便暂缓对等关税的实施政府能应做好完全的准备说明如下总统4月6号公开说明政府因应美国关税政策整体策略强调台湾不会采取报复性措施并在维护我国经济持续发展及加强台美产业合作的前提之下"},{"start":3294.659,"end":3310.65,"text":"提出了政府的五大因應策略其重點如下一 透過談判全力爭取改善對等關稅政府已組成談判小組談判關稅比照美加墨自貿協定從台美雙方的零關稅開始談起"},{"start":3312.771,"end":3330.08,"text":"另将扩大对美采购以降低贸易逆差并整合出台湾投资美国对以扩大对美国投资深化台美经贸合作此外也将积极解决已经存在多年的非关税贸易障碍"},{"start":3331.226,"end":3357.995,"text":"让谈判能够更加的顺利提出产业支持计划给予受影响产业必要的协助行政院4月4号提出应应美国关税我国出口供应链支持方案整合跨部会资源定出9大面项共20项措施总共投入金额880亿元并针对个别产业提供客制化的协助"},{"start":3358.945,"end":3379.743,"text":"三、提出中長期經濟發展計畫以及產業發展新策略政府將積極與有門國家合作開拓多元市場同時強化產業上中下游的整合健全台灣產業的生態系並善用半導體製造、IC設計等先進產業的優勢打造台灣成為人工智慧島"},{"start":3384.907,"end":3408.552,"text":"推動食衣住行以及軍工安控次世代通信及大健康應用產業發展是台灣嘉義寄一寄台灣加美國新布局政府持續改善國內投資環境積極的解決水電土地人才等各項問題吸引"},{"start":3411.587,"end":3436.568,"text":"企业跟流台湾及加码投资此外政府将协助台商布局海外生产基地形塑台湾加一并加强台美产业合作带动业者进军美国市场五开启产业倾听之旅政府将率领团队倾听业界新生随时解决问题让政策更符合产业的需求"},{"start":3438.547,"end":3459.506,"text":"产业支持计划前述支持计划由经济部共规划投入414亿元411亿元提供一金融支持二提升产业竞争力三开拓多元市场等三大面向共四项支持措施协助受影响业者稳健转型开拓新局"},{"start":3460.507,"end":3484.238,"text":"在金融资质方面经济部加码60亿元针对多元布局市场外销订单提供外销贷款优惠信用保证降低业者采购原料生产以及出口周转金等负担同时加码50亿元挹注在中小微企业贷款提供周转性支出及购买机器设备的贷款"},{"start":3484.898,"end":3509.594,"text":"并搭配利息补助及信用保证缓解业者的资金压力在提升产业竞争力方面经济部将投入200亿元推动研发转型补助透过法人、学校建制产业共通性之软硬设备搭配人工智慧技术建立示范、实作或训练场域"},{"start":3510.751,"end":3530.13,"text":"除此之外亦补助及辅导业者技术升级取得海外订单及任验证补助范围涵盖新购或租赁设备无形资产等之引进在开拓多元市场方面经济部投入100亿元辅助"},{"start":3530.951,"end":3551.263,"text":"企业海外新设展示中心二 花货仓库等实体据点三 货代理经销商等协助企业拓展国际市场布局减少对单一市场的依赖各项措施均秉持重减 重宽 重塑等原则办理"},{"start":3552.356,"end":3574.239,"text":"務必協助受影響業者度過短期營運的困難三 短中長期之規劃措施經濟部短期內將採取多項營運措施包括鼓勵國內上市櫃公司買回庫藏股引導已在美國投資業者以代工方式支援國內品牌廠商並促成民間成立"},{"start":3575.342,"end":3597.396,"text":"貿易公司整合訂單後分配與中小微企業在中長期方面將聯合海外台商在當地保稅園區代工生產台灣品牌產品推動代工品與品牌商共同開拓先進工業國家市場同時培育數位與AI的應用人才協助產業升級轉型"},{"start":3599.71,"end":3622.184,"text":"现在暂缓对等关税实施我们将持续关注后续情况的发展经济部也将设立免付会咨询专业以及网页专区提供业者咨询了解同时经济部亦折成66个产业园区服务中心全面提供实体的咨询及辅导服务"},{"start":3623.804,"end":3639.873,"text":"如有無法解決的問題提報至經濟部馬上辦中心將由本部組成應用小組在一天之內提供一對一的協助服務協助解答所面臨的問題政府亦陸續召開產業座談會收集業者心聲與需求"},{"start":3644.623,"end":3665.565,"text":"納入支持措施申請作業以及相關政策的規劃包括放寬申請資格簡化審查作業並加強宣導讓業者了解美國關稅新政資訊及支持的措施內容以上報告敬請各位委員指正視教祝各位委員身體健康 注視順利謝謝"},{"start":3668.114,"end":3693.321,"text":"好謝謝我們經濟部郭部長的報告那我們現在來開始進行詢答那委員諮詢前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘我們上午11點半截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位邱奕穎委員發言"},{"start":3706.199,"end":3734.222,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下郭部長還有陳部長好請郭部長跟陳部長兩位部長早請問一下兩位部長昨天晚上有沒有睡覺昨天有沒有睡覺有啊那你們是什麼時候掌握到這個川普總統的政策轉變這件事情"},{"start":3735.267,"end":3762.517,"text":"我們很快就因為他是在臺灣的凌晨發布的嘛所以你們的所謂很快是大概幾點的時候掌握我是早上5點早上5點那陳部長呢大概6點左右好那所以你們兩位的這個報告因為我相信你們昨天準備的報告應該跟今天早上的是不太一樣的嘛剛剛我看經濟部的同仁很辛苦啊還在更改這個今天要來做業務報告的內容就是說"},{"start":3763.597,"end":3788.964,"text":"我特別問這個事情是川普總統在4月9號臨時又更改了他的這個關稅的政策現在的關稅政策全世界各國大概有70幾國是調降到10但中國的稅率增加到125%這個對全世界的經濟又引起很大的變化我看今天的台股已經漲了現在是漲了多少點"},{"start":3790.782,"end":3815.343,"text":"一千多點了所以那個整個變化是非常的大我要請教兩位的就是說剛剛經濟部也特別談到了這一些現在的90天我們其實無法預測川普什麼時候會再改變他現在跟大家說這個關稅將到時為期90天不知道什麼時候會再改變但是對中國的稅率增加到125%這件事情"},{"start":3819.11,"end":3841.061,"text":"我覺得他很有可能還會再改變他的改變很有可能會再提高那經濟部對於這個90天的暫緩期我認為不是對經濟部或者是農業部來講他不是鬆一口氣而是你們應該要更加的滾動式檢討比如說我的推測會不會再引發另外一波的台商回流潮"},{"start":3842.827,"end":3862.042,"text":"部長您的看法是什麼報告委員我想這就在我們的推論之內啦我想這個因為所以你們經濟部也做了這樣的推論就認為很可能會引發另外一波新一波的台商回流潮這個我們因為在過去啊就針對這個非紅供應鏈有提出一些這個基本假設"},{"start":3862.942,"end":3891.123,"text":"並沒有在這個關稅之前那所以我們其實都有把這個命題我們有經過一些推論那我們現在是要加速來了解在中國的台商他們如何在這90天裡面能夠移動他們能夠移動對他們來講或者他們在中國的台商他只是在服務的這個客人都在這個中國或者是跟中國友好的國家"},{"start":3891.883,"end":3912.248,"text":"那這個部分我們就不協助他不是說不協助他就長遠我們還是要協助他因為他畢竟是我們的國人那國人的產業是關心國人產業協助他們發展協助他們未來有競爭力我們優先是他們如果產品是出口到美國的我們協助他移轉生產基地"},{"start":3913.484,"end":3939.784,"text":"所以我想這個部分可能經濟部未來的工作不會是只有了解國內的產業對於本來我們昨天以前談的是川普總統科徵32%的關稅所以對於產業造成的影響現在我們要關心的是如果是現在這個狀態有可能更多我們的台商會需要政府更多的協助讓他就像剛剛部長您所說的轉移"},{"start":3941.966,"end":3962.293,"text":"他的這個產區所以這個部分可能要請經濟部這邊也要隨時密切的掌控昨天你們說滾動是檢討我看這個滾動還滾動的蠻快的一夜之間就變化很多好來部長那您那個郭部長您請回我現在要請教農業的部分這個陳部長昨天下午我們在前陣的這個漁港談到了養殖漁業對於這個農業的衝擊這個關稅對養殖漁業的衝擊"},{"start":3969.255,"end":3977.691,"text":"那其實我們看到台美的這個農產的貿易概況這個逆差大概是達到28億元其實我們比較擔心就是說現在關稅到10"},{"start":3980.543,"end":4007.203,"text":"大幅下降了之後其實農業部提出了很多的三大面向六大措施那這個東西其實過去本來就一直在做或者是說做的力道沒有那麼大那現在面臨到這樣子一個關稅的調整是不是農業部應該要更往前更往前瞻的方向去走其實面對到的我想"},{"start":4008.6,"end":4021.709,"text":"農業的衝擊其實應該相對是最大的比如說我們談到毛豆美國目前對毛豆的科稅其實只有3.8%那川普總統這個宣布未來毛豆的科稅是10%"},{"start":4023.504,"end":4042.349,"text":"你這個造成的衝擊政府應該如何因應我一次把它問完然後再讓你一併回答啦然後像稻米如果我們把美國米的這個零關稅放進來的話那台灣米的競爭力就會完全不見了所以對於台灣稻米的衝擊相對來講是高的"},{"start":4044.85,"end":4073.421,"text":"那農業部有沒有什麼因應的措施我就這兩個問題請部長您回答好不好第一個部分是有關於整個產業支持的部分那剛才委員講的的確我們有一些措施是過去就有的去做個某個程度的延續但是這些措施其實都是在跟產業在對談裡面以後所得到的所以不管他的措施是舊的還是新的只要對產業好我們都會去執行"},{"start":4074.401,"end":4100.806,"text":"那有一個非常重要的就是在這次的不同的關稅的一個情況之下對中國的關稅提得高的時候其實對我們來講是一種機會特別是在美國的這些產地有很多像毛豆像吳國瑜其實都是中國為大宗的輸出國這個時候其實我們可以用更好的新的佈局去搶光這個美國市場所以後續我想我們會從這個方向去協助他們"},{"start":4101.667,"end":4117.809,"text":"更去加速美國的相關的一個佈局這是第一個部分第二個部分是接下來可能會談的關稅的部分那我要跟委員報告就是糧食的一個供應是確保我們糧食安全的一個非常重要的農業部的責任所以"},{"start":4118.289,"end":4132.714,"text":"以目前為止我們現在美國所關切的是我們的關稅政府購買的稻米大概有9萬4千多噸裡面有6萬4千多噸是來自於美國的他是希望我們底價能夠更透明"},{"start":4133.454,"end":4145.465,"text":"那這個部分我想我們在根據政府採購法裡面是可以先公告底價然後價低者得這個是可以調整的但是水那個倒數本身我想我們絕對就會堅守不會讓美國的關稅就是這個關稅降低"},{"start":4150.229,"end":4162.922,"text":"因為總統也講過了是從零開始談他不是說全部都是降到零針對農產品的部分院長跟總統也強調農民優先所以這個部分我們會確保所以我們的零關稅的部分對於農產農漁產的部分其實我們還是有採守一個底線他應該不會是從零開始所以他應該還是會有一個底線是這樣嗎"},{"start":4173.513,"end":4198.445,"text":"是這樣子的就是農業的部分我想主要的會影響到我們農民權益的會影響到我們產業發展的我們都會去堅持他有必須有適當的關稅去來做一個相關的硬的確保糧食安全這個部分其實部長這個農業跟工業其實很大的不同比如說你說工業螺絲如果今天沒有單他就停下來"},{"start":4199.741,"end":4205.416,"text":"但是他停下來他可以減少Maybe他可以減少一些損失可是你養魚 種菜 種米"},{"start":4207.967,"end":4212.23,"text":"你剩下的就是剩下 棄下的就是棄下不是說我今天去沒棄 它就停下來它就不長大所以對於農業的整體的影響我認為會相對的它的觀察期可能是要比較長一點所以我們在對於農業政策的調整上面我認為農業部其實也應該可以加快腳步去做這個台灣的整體的農業外銷的佈局"},{"start":4237.165,"end":4262.95,"text":"過去我們有好幾次的經驗因為中國突然喊卡不買石斑不買鳳梨不買什麼我們可以自己內銷去做調整但是你現在面臨到的是外銷到美國去或者是一個全球的農產佈局我想這個部分也考驗到農業部的危機應變處理跟我們在整體農業轉型上面我們其實應該要下更多的功夫"},{"start":4263.55,"end":4291.872,"text":"去做所以我其實還是支持你們剛剛提到的這幾大面向但是我認為那個錢還是遠遠不足啦假如可以的話我希望能夠把那個經費增加把整個做大讓台灣的農業發展能夠更健全這個是我比較期待農業部能夠去做到的部分非常謝謝委員的提醒我想我們會針對整個整體的這些佈局會有一個更積極的一個去討論好 謝謝"},{"start":4295.302,"end":4313.89,"text":"好謝謝邱益穎委員那我們現在因為這個人數足夠我們先來確認議事錄請問各位同仁上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定好繼續詢答那下一位請林黛華委員發言"},{"start":4321.107,"end":4325.047,"text":"好 我們先有請郭部長好 有請部長郭部長"},{"start":4332.605,"end":4351.937,"text":"這個川普關稅下的這個海嘯我們國家是產業跟人民就業的唯一依靠好 粉絲呢 針對我們目前不管是昨天晚上的關稅的一個暫緩三個月或者是我們現在政府所提出的相關的一個救急方案"},{"start":4351.937,"end":4379.094,"text":"方案本期還是就三個問題來跟我們郭部長以及等一下的陳部長來做討論第一個我們現有的預算補助是否充足到位第二個我如何因應可能發生的失業跟匯率的波動所以等一下財政部也要來上來表達一下的相關的措施第三個擴大對美採購應該要鏈接國家的長期發展的策略好第一個呢我們這個"},{"start":4381.896,"end":4395.666,"text":"針對第一個問題現有的預算補助是否到位經濟部你的報告說880億當中有410億是跟經濟部有關我目前高雄的困境我相信部長你有相當的掌握在沒有三個月的這個暫緩的"},{"start":4398.028,"end":4407.932,"text":"一個關稅的政策之前我高雄未被列入豁免範圍的金屬加工製品光是高雄的產值有多少金屬加工有2330億這2330億當中有560億是出口的佔了我整個高雄金屬加工製造業的產值的24%"},{"start":4418.155,"end":4424.818,"text":"好這561出口當中呢又其中又以螺絲螺帽出口總額高達523億也就是這564億當中的出口92%全部都是我高雄的螺絲螺帽好第二個我高雄的現有的產業廊擴"},{"start":4436.923,"end":4452.25,"text":"包括我科學園區及半導體廠商受到的政策衝擊最為嚴重因為這些廊帶這些科學園區這些半導體廠商相關的周邊的廠商進駐到我高雄的都是以蘇美的資通訊產品跟電子零件為大宗這兩個輸出的產品資通訊產品跟電子產品"},{"start":4457.753,"end":4474.195,"text":"輸出我們在台灣輸出美國的出口達到65.4%所以這個直接對高雄的經濟當然一定產生重大的打擊好那410億能夠提供多久或多少我中南部是台灣船廠的"},{"start":4475.376,"end":4495.444,"text":"工業重鎮而且高雄更是重中之重所以呢經濟部提出了個別產業客製化的這個協助策略本期是非常認同的部長這我非常認同你那但是呢我要求就是希望秋季之外也能帶動產業的升級這等一下我有具體的要求這是第一個問題要跟您就教以及第二個階段後續準備跟預算"},{"start":4497.965,"end":4502.57,"text":"我們現在規劃的預算比如說410億在經濟不夠的時候您的後面的這個啟動作業又是如何呢第二個問題好我們如何因應失業跟匯率的波動面對關稅對等關稅風暴產業已經基於疫情時代我要嘛就就就減產要嘛我就裁員所以相關後面的報導不管是"},{"start":4521.029,"end":4543.359,"text":"彰化的這個水五金已經接收到美國的這個評單了他只好裁員官場包括我們台灣老牌的工廠的大裁員等等所以這會本席在意的是我勞工的家庭生計所以看到我們今年3月的CPI我們的消費者物價指數比去年同年期3月我高了2.29%我已經突破通膨的一個警戒性2%"},{"start":4548.061,"end":4556.407,"text":"好那再來PPI這個生產物價指數我今年3月生產者物價指數比去年3月的生產者物價指數高了3.53那再加上我這一個禮拜我台幣大貶值"},{"start":4563.311,"end":4586.364,"text":"所以我可以預期台灣的膨脹是應該要被因應的這簡單的講我人民的消費的痛苦指數提高了那我生產的成本也提高了那再加上關稅又砍單了那再加上我台幣貶值我出口當然是已經又面臨砍單我台幣貶值的情況之下當然我整個"},{"start":4587.664,"end":4606.002,"text":"我們整個台灣的一個經濟的通膨當中我們是很憂慮的所以經濟部提出說好你們提出了利息補貼也提出了研發補助本席都認同但是我更在意的是勞工權益這一題等一下財政部要來回應我因為我有這個具體的建議好 第三"},{"start":4606.542,"end":4610.725,"text":"擴大對美採購應鏈結國家的長期發展總統這邊已經很明確的指示了我們行政院已經盤點對農工石油天然氣國防等產品進行採購跟投資好那經濟部農業部將相關採購計畫也要納入國家中產級的發展戰略我想這個你們不會反對但"},{"start":4629.819,"end":4654.804,"text":"好我幾個幾項第一個在這個國企國運國管有關天然氣的部分台美雙方已經簽訂了在部長您的支持之下中油也確實去投資美國阿拉斯加的這個天然氣廠我們也會有採購也有投資的計畫那目前也就是要穩定天然氣的供應穩定考量地緣政治本席主張的天然氣國企"},{"start":4657.265,"end":4671.912,"text":"國運 國管所以如果將天然來提升臺灣人員安全的自主性就這個政策來講本席是非常感謝郭部長您上來您支持這個計畫所以也因為你的支持中油也很趕快的"},{"start":4672.592,"end":4686.368,"text":"本來不想要去跟他跟中油跟日本投資的尼米克公司去談這個延約您支持下他要去談了也配合今天這個政策但本席發現到中油去跟轉投資的尼米克討論後續的展延計畫的時候"},{"start":4688.47,"end":4698.673,"text":"最在意的他沒有去規劃國籍天然氣航運人才的養成這是本席最在意的我既然如果全部國企國運之後呢我國管啊只有台灣船籍的船長才會配合國家的政策啊"},{"start":4706.895,"end":4719.232,"text":"只有台灣籍的國家的船長才會知道在面臨地緣政治的時候我國家的人員政策國內有危機的時候他會配合政策進來只有台灣籍的船長那船長怎麼來當然從基層的船員啊"},{"start":4723.658,"end":4729.163,"text":"大富二富這個這個水手這樣很這個基層上來呀所以這個部分我是要求這個既然經濟部已經開始重啟國際國運但我要國管所以我這邊要求經濟部您這個請中油要特別將這個台灣級天然氣船廠的天然氣船的船長納入這次對美採購合併的規劃這是可以做到嗎"},{"start":4751.295,"end":4766.506,"text":"報告委員我們會根據你的這樣的一個方案我們會跟交通部深刻的快速的來檢討將這樣的一個方向能夠落實對因為最後要訓練還是回到台船還是回到中友因為船是他的"},{"start":4767.006,"end":4781.61,"text":"那船員還是他的場域是他的啊那包括要支持當然交通部可以來支援這樣技術可是最後在整個實習面還是都是在中油的相關的一個場域內好第二個高雄地區的台灣雕這個陳部長就請你上來了"},{"start":4784.671,"end":4810.023,"text":"高雄地區的台灣鯛跟鱸魚對美我現在講高雄喔我的農業當中最危險的就是台灣鯛跟鱸魚對美有將近一億出頭的出口額相較於其他的競爭對手包括巴西我的這個關稅他是10%本來我們是32%在這個昨天晚上的三個月還沒暫緩之前所以我們的市場絕對會被搶走我高雄的台灣鯛跟鱸魚的市場就沒有了所以呢"},{"start":4810.683,"end":4825.88,"text":"在這邊防範於未來因為這樣的一個關稅暫緩就三個月而已所以如果談判不順利巴西的關稅還是維持10%那我們還是比10%高的時候那您的因應措施是什麼"},{"start":4826.901,"end":4840.885,"text":"跟委員報告您所關切的這些吳國瑜的部分雖然說我們吳國瑜的出口量79%到美國去但是從美國來講我們的主要競爭對手國是中國我講的是台灣鯛跟鱸魚對 台灣鯛就是台灣鯛"},{"start":4843.626,"end":4872.873,"text":"是 台灣人很努力喔平手不一樣喔進到美國去進到美國去的是中國是佔了66%我們是佔7%而已所以我們的最大競爭對手國是中國那以現在目前為止中國的關稅是遠高於我們其實它是另外一個機會我們可以趁這個機會但是我們另外一個對手是巴西喔它當然中國就已經被排除在外嘛那個是美國它的政策嘛但是在排除中國之後我的最大競爭對手是巴西喔對"},{"start":4873.593,"end":4901.661,"text":"所以說整個美國市場如果不萎縮的時候中國這個高關稅不能進去的時候就是台灣還有巴西有可能去競爭更多的市場所以這個部分我們在產業的時候就會輔導他們去加速他們的一個外銷的整個的一個品質特別是條魚跟條凍的這些部分的冷藏跟有系統的生食級的吳國瑜能夠進到美國他的高端市場是維持在那邊的好 走高端市場好"},{"start":4902.981,"end":4919.568,"text":"那這邊這個陳部長您請回啦那這個郭部長跟我們的財政部次長來因為我在意的是我中小企業這個財政部啊我在你們這個補貼力學當中我在這邊有個要求"},{"start":4921.048,"end":4926.033,"text":"財政部應該統籌八大行庫組成融資專案小組配合我經濟部配合我農業部的產業政策評估將不裁員保證設定於貸款條件當中你經濟部你的中小企業處也要核實的去監督審核到底我這個簽了不裁我政府補貼你這個貸款的利率"},{"start":4944.068,"end":4961.066,"text":"那這個中小企業你核定了這樣的一個補助計畫那到底有沒有落實不裁員這件事情我不知道次長您怎麼看是委員我想那個有關於中小微企業這部分的貸款的話基本上我們公股行庫一定會配合來辦理那委員是希望把不裁員這個條件對"},{"start":4962.568,"end":4986.076,"text":"加入一個評估的參考 這個我們也會請八大公共航空部來列為參考我想這是一個很重要的原則 我在意的是你拿了補貼之後 到底你真的企業拿了補貼之後到底是不是真的有還是去做相關的套利的動作 我想講這樣應該次長知道我在講什麼所以對於真的可以拿得到立即補貼的 那他"},{"start":4987.877,"end":5000.668,"text":"真的是要能夠有不裁員的保證 好不好那第二個針對經濟部提出方案你們對於區域及產業聚落進行補貼分配的專案當中尤其對中小型 本席是最在意中小型企業跟傳統產業所以你410億當中我強烈要求60%"},{"start":5006.673,"end":5021.874,"text":"你一定要用在這個我的中小型企業跟船長避免資源集中在優勢產業什麼叫優勢產業就是他只有賺錢啊即使我現在面對高官企業他的承受力還有可是面對這個高官雖然我中小企業跟船長是會倒成一片的"},{"start":5022.795,"end":5049.938,"text":"那所以呢這個60%是補助在中小型企業跟船廠而避免在這個再去的去補助不是說不補助半導體跟資通訊的還是要但是你至少40%給他們去分60%一定要在中小型企業跟船廠這個部長你怎麼看是這個我們可以做到啦是剛才委員在講說這個不裁員我們也不降薪啦是這是我們的條件喔好好好"},{"start":5050.458,"end":5068.511,"text":"很好OK好那在這邊當然也希望美國的暫緩政策這三個月當中請各部會能夠加強跟地方跟產業的務實對話能夠聽取產業的心聲基層的需求作為輔助政策的制定參考我們大家一起努力好謝謝好謝謝林戴華委員那我們下一位請陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":5080.794,"end":5084.628,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是先請經濟部部長來 請郭部長"},{"start":5091.946,"end":5109.657,"text":"我想昨天已經就一些題目跟你討論了但是我想今天的一個新的狀況就是川普發文說對於我們有75個國家其實已經有做了比較善意的一些談判的需求所以針對這75個國家我們就是這個關稅10%那這10%我相信"},{"start":5117.181,"end":5145.45,"text":"對於台灣稍稍有緩了一下可是這久時間就像我說講的我們在這談判期這當中還是會有一些衝擊面就像我們說的這衝擊面我們的馬上辦可以給予多少的協助就像剛剛講的不裁員不減薪不能趁火打劫這才是重要不能說明明沒有影響然後因為"},{"start":5147.154,"end":5164.44,"text":"這樣的一個理由而造成我們另外一個傷害我們自己企業體的傷害所以我覺得這個部分我們自己要把持住然後呢在我們針對這個談判當中我們很清楚從川普的發文大概他的目標就是中國啦"},{"start":5165.526,"end":5194.986,"text":"包括我們過去一直在揣測的說他就是要把中國的一個真面目把它挑出來也就是當在選舉的時候他不斷的就已經在談到關稅然後呢很多這個中國的企業就是用一個所謂的不同的一個角度去做了息產地的一個調整所以跑到東南亞跑到一些他們比較友好的國家而造成了"},{"start":5196.106,"end":5222.976,"text":"美國川普做了一些要做中國制裁的動作包括針對周邊的稀產地那台灣是沒有的所以我真的希望我們台灣反而可以在這個所謂的一個經濟狀況的一個改變我們如何讓我們的廠商可以回流讓我們的一個製造可以在這裡"},{"start":5224.316,"end":5242.716,"text":"這才是重點所以我們現在有兩個區塊部長除了我們要面對美國的這個關稅另外一個部分是我們要怎麼讓我們自己的體制更好讓我們在中國的一些廠商可以回流台商回流"},{"start":5243.537,"end":5254.725,"text":"這也是最重要的關鍵所以部長麻煩你這個部分再拜託把一些策略政策要做好比較詳細的討論兩個方向一個是怎麼應付未來的談判"},{"start":5260.802,"end":5275.61,"text":"我們的關稅要怎麼處理第二就是我們要怎麼讓在美國對於中國產業制裁的當中我們要怎麼讓台商回流拜託那我們請財政部好 請理事長"},{"start":5283.649,"end":5305.779,"text":"市長現在我想你也知道每次我們說我們要紓困我們的公股銀行要來協助可是你知道嗎每一次這個帽子開得很高可是做出來的並不是如此因為很重要的一個關節就是訂單"},{"start":5307.208,"end":5314.36,"text":"是了解很多我們的銀行端他都會說你有訂單我才要給你廢話這個狀態完全不同"},{"start":5318.577,"end":5343.212,"text":"這個狀態現在我們所面臨的是因為我們可能美國關稅的調整而造成訂單的縮減雖然我們現在積極努力要去做一些協調溝通可是當我們銀行端在做一些它的核准條件他都會先看你的背後未來的體制"},{"start":5344.213,"end":5348.839,"text":"那跟我們這一次就完全不同啊市長有沒有什麼樣在針對這一波的狀態當中有做什麼調整"},{"start":5354.18,"end":5374.183,"text":"報告委員 當然因為銀行他們在做融資貸款的時候他們還是會有風險考量風險考量才是現在壓死大家的重點但是我們目前就是有我們這個中小企業銀行他們跟八大公司一起協助合作"},{"start":5374.864,"end":5399.3,"text":"以自由資金來做的這個融資貸款他其實他主要就是希望能夠提供給這個企業做這個營運所需的周轉性的支出或者是說他要擴建廠房機器設備我都知道這些可是我們來自基層我們聽到很多企業跟我們投訴說每次我們去申請總是第一個條件是你的訂單在哪裡"},{"start":5400.18,"end":5413.462,"text":"妳的背後體制在哪裡那今天面對這一波就是因為我們有可能要協助的關鍵就是訂單萎縮那妳如果還要在他拿訂單我就跟他說"},{"start":5415.177,"end":5430.5,"text":"所以市長我只是要跟你提醒你們要重新盤整也就是說當我們公股銀行在這一波要加入整個協助的體制當中你如果再要求訂單是第一條件那就是白搭了"},{"start":5431.321,"end":5452.081,"text":"那就是白搭了應該利用其他的條件這個再拜託次長我們會在那個跟公股事業這些融資座談的時候金融座談的時候我們會提醒我們公股事業因為每次你們都說有啊我們有請公股銀行來協助可是每次公股銀行要求各企業"},{"start":5453.542,"end":5463.949,"text":"要去提出的就是他的訂單也就是他未來的發展我知道了解委員的意思就是因為受到這一波關稅政策影響有這個衝擊我們是不是在這個盤點這些貸款條件的時候把這個條件納入考量不要只是唯一一個訂單"},{"start":5472.194,"end":5481.297,"text":"因為如果你要求訂單 那根本就不符合我們這一次紓困的一個重點嘛我們這一次是因為關稅 美國關稅的調漲而造成有可能訂單的萎縮這種短期緊急的狀況 人家說的現在是急進性嘛那我們在急診室我們就是要用一個急救的方式嘛"},{"start":5493.661,"end":5507.1,"text":"那你如果再要求像過去的條件那就白搭了啊其實各位報告我們這次在那個金融知識方面我們也有提到就是說如果是中小企業或主管機關認定受到這次衝擊較大的其實我們就會做利率的減好"},{"start":5509.002,"end":5522.531,"text":"次長 這個很重要 請你要跟大家講而且不是只有跟我們講 也不是跟社會大眾講你要跟公股銀行講 審核端是他們啊他們的關鍵他們要願意放 才有效啊這個次長再麻煩 再來我們請我們農業部部長"},{"start":5533.752,"end":5554.045,"text":"部長我一樣在用這個圖啦昨天我有用這個圖跟我們經濟部做過討論這個圖今天增加了一個叫延後90天實行這個當時候也就是我昨天一直在講的我們有一個談判期這個談判期多久不知道談判期越長當然"},{"start":5555.686,"end":5578.934,"text":"如果我們在關稅豁免可以更長的話那更好嘛也就是說不用用這個所謂32%那可是重點來了我們還是要因應啊因為包括蝴蝶蘭、茶葉、毛豆五國魚、鬼頭刀跟鱸魚這個我們台灣這個出口到美國的還是有它一定的數額嘛雖然"},{"start":5581.499,"end":5605.515,"text":"最大的這個競爭對手都是中國這一次他們被要求了125%的一個關稅所以我們現在是要怎麼把這些市場能夠吸收這也是我們另外一個取款除了我們來協助這些廠商不要受到影響訂單不受到影響另外一個部分是我們要"},{"start":5606.235,"end":5633.174,"text":"把中國的一個區塊他們原本佔有的市場這個競爭力把它拿回來對不對因為我相信我們的條件還有我們的品質各方面絕對是好太多比起其他國家所以我們更利用也就是我們的一個轉型在整個國際間這個市場的一個大盤整的時候我們要怎麼去搶"},{"start":5634.575,"end":5649.447,"text":"這也是另外一個轉機啊怎麼去搶部長你有沒有好的方向怎麼去搶我就舉齁就是委員也非常關心在台南非常重要的一個產業就是蝴蝶燃產業你昨天有下去做做交流"},{"start":5652.455,"end":5675.389,"text":"其實中國關稅提高雖然說我們的競爭對手國是荷蘭但是我們有非常好的供應鏈接力生產的系統他們提出來一個就是要擴大在美國的接力廠的一個投資讓我們的產業能夠更有機會去搶食其他中國沒辦法進來的這些產品所以這個部分我想我已經成立了一個蝴蝶蘭的應變小組"},{"start":5676.75,"end":5685.778,"text":"去針對比較中期的我們必須要去協助廠商去做在美國投資或是在台灣更紮根的這些計畫我想我們已經在做盤點希望能夠去多久這個盤點多久這個盤點我想欸時機咧我知道部長你知道時機比什麼都重要我們已經請業者針對你在美國的這些"},{"start":5699.169,"end":5718.69,"text":"藍園本身有沒有機會跟台塘合作這個在一個月之內他們就會有一個整理因為有台塘基地在那裡啊對所以我們後續當有了以後我們就會協助說他在國外的資金怎麼取得後續我們會跟財政部這邊還有其他的銀行的部分看有沒有辦法去協助部長我希望因為"},{"start":5719.671,"end":5748.623,"text":"我們是趕時間在曬炮我知道我們一定要搶得先機一個月好不好我們盡快把這個東西把它完成一個月把這個部分怎麼去協助他們因為我們台廠剛好有基地在那裡那如果是這樣子的話其實是最適當的只是差在我們的廠商有沒有能力這個能力誰要來協助這個部分我們在一個月之內幫到怎麼樣組成一個聯盟這個東西是要打聯盟的一個團體戰一定要打聯盟"},{"start":5749.463,"end":5763.621,"text":"打個人沒有用一定要打聯盟啊因為你台糖基地我們聯盟進去才有辦法去撐起讓大家看到整個我們蝴蝶蘭的市場我們的蘭花市場是可以有另外一個基地在美國"},{"start":5764.542,"end":5782.987,"text":"那這個基地剛好我們台糖跟我們的聯盟結合我相信兩邊美國我們台南的這個花卉未來的花卉產業基地那我要拜託部長因為這個4月7號你沒辦法下去嗎因為你在處理這個關稅的問題那跟你報告讓你可以接上就是說花卉產業園區對我們台南太重要那"},{"start":5790.689,"end":5814.105,"text":"我們當時候從過去111年的掛牌一直到現在我一直追掛牌我也去到現場那當時候因為這個是集中過去因為集中是竹尾所以我們一直希望說他不只掛牌他還有量能所謂量能就是預算跟人力好不容易我們原本預計說農業部升格之後那麼"},{"start":5815.006,"end":5838.099,"text":"他的整個組織編制就可以加進去變成三級可是沒有辦法他容納不進去所以最後我們用花卉試驗所去做結合變成四級那一個月因為那天邀請人事人事處去處理一個月一個月希望能夠把這個事情行政院都合作我也會追一個月因為因為你"},{"start":5840.16,"end":5862.918,"text":"如果沒有先把編制處理好你的整個計畫是沒辦法核定的你計畫核定之後所以我們當下也說了五月份我們希望能夠做所謂的環評的預先委託的招標案還有我們的開發計畫同步當我們編制過了之後那麼"},{"start":5864.212,"end":5891.738,"text":"整個計畫核准他們就可以處理了無縫接軌所以部長這個部分很重要因為當天你沒有去所以我把這個結論跟您報告那麼還有另外一個部分就是說在我們芒果的部分本來4月9號他已經有召開專家會議但是因為還有一些細節那我也尊重所以4月15號還要再召開一次其實我告訴你整個都收回去了"},{"start":5892.658,"end":5915.447,"text":"而且每一個果都是空泡蛋那一看其實都知道了這一次的天氣實在是太恐怖了我有現場我也去看過對 因為我告訴你那個冷熱沒這麼久的啦兩米高兩米弱拖這麼久的時間那個冷就受不了更何況是天氣所有的在第一線種植的農民都說將來不要看過這個情形那我們也看過酪梨所以其實酪梨因為有炸"},{"start":5922.87,"end":5941.398,"text":"早出、早生還有中生跟晚生所以你們說可能要拉一點時間這個我接受因為每一個狀態不一樣可是芒果真的不同這一次是完全全軍覆沒所以4月15號拜託不要再拖了這個部分再拜託然後還有18間農會的部分我們當年已經都配對好了"},{"start":5943.82,"end":5948.726,"text":"誰處理誰 誰處理誰都配對好了我們經濟委員會謝謝我們蔡義渝召委給我們這個機會然後由立法院的經濟委員會去給18家農會都做了配對就是說什麼農會找到一個單位到一個農會找到一個單位都配對好了"},{"start":5960.08,"end":5973.012,"text":"我們希望可以大家照這樣的程序下去進行那把農業不論是現在面對的國際競爭或是我們國內我們都可以給農民有安心謝謝 部長好謝謝陳廷飛委員那下一位請張其凱委員發言"},{"start":6007.154,"end":6015.585,"text":"行政經濟部的郭部長跟中小新創企業署的李冠志李署長好請郭部長跟李署長"},{"start":6026.815,"end":6052.281,"text":"面對這個川普這個高關稅的這個海嘯啊大家都吃怕命 補頓輸頓 大家現在朝野同心我們共赴國難 對不對共體時艱結果沒有想到總統府的副秘書長竟然還在大造謠破壞團結我看這個消息來源應該不是經濟部吧他昨天公開上節目"},{"start":6054.309,"end":6064.232,"text":"他講啊 立法院簡列了中小跟新創企業的科技應用砍了兩億 我跟你講這個事情我是不是請署長給你報告來 署長 有嗎"},{"start":6074.66,"end":6093.154,"text":"報告委員 這個昨天我們也是接到相關的訊息他只是想說這個預算的一個討論過程我們也有說明說這樣子的一個過程當中最後在中小企業相關的預算也收到我們各黨派朝野各委員的一些支持那有被刪減的部分是屬於統三的部分"},{"start":6093.934,"end":6118.874,"text":"就是在你的這個科目清清楚楚嘛中小跟新創企業的科技應用這個編了18億多嘛一毛錢都沒有刪這總統府的副秘書長顯然對立法院的這個預算審查非常的不清楚第一個 當初為什麼會提要刪減 第二個更重要喔這個溝通過程 這個為什麼後來會撤案因為你們也很努力嘛 對不對"},{"start":6120.253,"end":6133.883,"text":"報告你們都有來溝通啊但是報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員"},{"start":6150.816,"end":6157.349,"text":"往那裡看好不好18億18億部長是就這個案子很清楚的"},{"start":6162.869,"end":6188.601,"text":"其實一張造謠就造了四筆你的預算啦你經濟部你這麼大對不對他鎖定了你的中小輕創署啦他提了四筆預算我今天就很清清楚楚跟他講他這筆預算都是有問題而且他完全不了解立法院整個運作過程第一個要提刪減跟凍結當然有理由這個要看案流嘛第二個他也忽略了他不曉得你們部長你們來溝通署長都來辦公室都溝通過嘛"},{"start":6190.936,"end":6214.526,"text":"一個案子為什麼會來一份測案那不是只有看上面蓋了一個測案那是一個經過溝通的一個過程那經過經濟部的這個努力他等於抹滅你們的努力他連這個都搞不清楚啊就是你們來溝通我們剛開始是說可能做得不夠好或者要做些改善所以要刪減嘛對不對啊你們來溝通你們說會做好嗎"},{"start":6216.468,"end":6244.025,"text":"所以第一個他們總統府完全不了解整個預算的這個過程第二個他們也忽略了你們這個努力跟我們溝通的過程這個案子就清清楚楚本來要3.2億的經過大家溝通完說這個我們會好好做所以這個案子就撤掉了這是第一筆好來我們再看第二筆一樣是你這個單位的這筆預算叫做經濟部中小跟新創企業署的"},{"start":6245.683,"end":6270.828,"text":"中小新創企業發展變成3億4千多萬這個本來要 本來是要減去8億多的嘛那經過你們的努力來溝通針對他們的提案理由 我們會去處理嘛所以這8億多 一毛錢 一天都沒有刪啊 對不對今天 對 對 所以都沒刪嘛"},{"start":6272.199,"end":6297.804,"text":"昨天公開造謠,說這個錢被刪掉了,一個2億元,一個10倍後面他還提了一個,第三個還有一個凍結案32億的這個預算,就是你們這個中小跟新創企業發展向下的強補助費,32億他說我們本來要凍20,這經過大家溝通啊凍結有它的理由啊,凍結希望你提出一些改進嘛"},{"start":6299.104,"end":6322.467,"text":"阿部長跟署長你們來辦公室討論完之後委員會說好那我們達到你們確定會把它做好所以這個凍結案就沒有凍結20%也沒有阿結果他竟然在媒體上面公開講說我們刪了10多億凍結了3億多這都說不算吧沒有啦 包委員他是提統刪啦沒有造謠啦"},{"start":6324.956,"end":6345.696,"text":"我想這一部分大家認知上面的界定就是請委員也能夠了解你嚴重誤會 你是在幫他掩護還是嚴重誤會統三是另外的錢嘛統三是另外的錢 現在講的是這個預算的科目都清清楚楚企業發展還有科技應用 這跟統三有什麼關係"},{"start":6347.967,"end":6366.369,"text":"你說的桶山是另外的部分現在就針對他認為他只提桶山所以他認為他嚴重的錯誤所以說第一個他對預算不清楚第二個他不曉得為什麼會提立法委員為什麼會提這個案子他來看案由第三個他要看我們溝通的過程"},{"start":6367.81,"end":6396.675,"text":"我們已經溝通好了所以才會測案啊一般怎麼會出現測案如果溝通無效我們沒有感受到你的誠意沒有感受到你為人民是要解決問題的這個就不會測案了嘛大概是肯定大家要肯定經濟部的努力肯定立法委員提出要幫人民勘緊荷包而且要解決問題嘛結果他沒有從這邊不一樣的思考所以他不只嚴重誤會嘛最後才說他是誤解那我今天要問的好我們把他的誤會跟他的誤解對立法院不了解我們今天把它講清楚了"},{"start":6397.486,"end":6422.125,"text":"第一個我要問啊他造謠資料來源是你們嗎?為什麼講的是你們?沒有嘛對不對他是就那個統三後的結果來說明這件事情時段不一樣時空不太一樣啦這個委員我想這個也不是說他在造謠啦我想每個人對"},{"start":6423.266,"end":6438.553,"text":"一件事情的認定可能會有時差有時差啦譬如說我們現在來討論昨天以前的事情那跟今天的情境就會有很大的差異嘛古年常常在說32%的事情現在變10%嘛我想這是時間的問題啦請委員可以了解啦所以總統府的副秘書長張端涵還活在"},{"start":6449.458,"end":6478.01,"text":"時空背景完全不一樣他還活在過去那過去一個我們這麼努力這麼努力已經撤大的案子他竟然還拿出來講時空錯亂了嘛第二個我今天要講的是他嚴重嚴重的他是閉門召集還是對立法院的不了解還是造謠所以我們很清楚的我們很清楚柏定你一定要幫他圓一個地方你一直在講統三我先跟你講一下柏定你不要一直把統三掛在這裡他講的這四筆都是你經濟部跟統三無關的預算啦"},{"start":6479.758,"end":6504.526,"text":"你等一下再詳細看這四個我剛剛已經列給你聽了這四筆跟統三都沒關係所以我們會非常嚴正的不是只有譴責我們要求總統府要求總統府要更正要道歉那今天我也更進一步的問了經濟部的你們不是供應者嘛對不對這是他自己閉門召集的嘛所以他更應該進一步的趕快要澄清要道歉那一樣喔"},{"start":6505.543,"end":6528.162,"text":"一樣喔 以前都是一條龍狩猎喔總統府講完 或者部會首長講完之後他們下鄉就開始講了喔你們以後被問到你們下鄉被問到 你們幫我們解釋清楚喔不要讓人民以後被誤解 好不好被誤導謝謝委員好我請到 請到農藥部長好 可能要加快時間好 加快問好委員長委員長 我知道這幾天很辛苦 你都下鄉了啦我問你這個 現在我們的農漁民啊"},{"start":6535.95,"end":6550.428,"text":"看起來蠻緊張的啦你昨天你有感覺嗎 對不對你跟他們在座談這個過程他們說啦這個零關稅啊衝擊非常大養殖協會的歷史上在那邊說說哇 只有聽到零關稅啊很多人嚇到"},{"start":6552.188,"end":6574.166,"text":"下個鑰匙那你在跟他們溝通的過程裡面我相信你們接到他們很多的很多的聲音了養殖協會理事長在這裡說他說啊不要講零關稅關稅我們稍微降一點點肌肉這個進口商啊就會大量的這個解禁產業少的關稅保護以後會措手來不及措手不及養殖協會理事長這是你的老朋友啊潘連做怎麼說"},{"start":6575.714,"end":6602.293,"text":"他說雙邊談判不能夠犧牲農民假如真的是零關稅進來那對整個養雞跟養豬會一敗塗地另外講到一個重點就是我現在要特別問你的美國他們在要求要把美豬進口的產地就是美國要拿掉對不對要把瘦肉精成分要拿掉對不對這個你會讓步嗎政府不會讓步吧"},{"start":6603.745,"end":6625.83,"text":"我跟委員報告就農業部主管的部分包括整個產業上面來講我們未來跟美國任何的一個談判絕對是會保障我們產業的穩定發展確保農民的一個權益這是一個大前提在這個大前提之下才會去談後續的一個關稅的調整那關稅的調整也一定會考慮到"},{"start":6628.075,"end":6643.551,"text":"雙贏的一個局勢就是說我們有些產品是美國進來是我們是沒有什麼生產的像黃小玉很多部分都是從美國進來的他可以協助我們降低一些成本所以我們在談判的時候不會犧牲農民這是一個非常大的一個前提"},{"start":6644.81,"end":6670.148,"text":"現在就是總統宣布了從零關稅開始談嘛是所以我們農移民現在都緊張啦你說看得出來這個都是很大咖的這個協會的理事長都出來說嘛養雞協會 養豬協會 對不對我也跟他們也講過了總統所講的零關稅開始不是說所有東西都零關稅然後總統跟院長也一直強調很多東西都是農移民優先所以在關稅的談判過程中"},{"start":6672.249,"end":6694.55,"text":"絕對不只有農產品在談所有的貿易產品都會在談但是我們農業本身一定因為兼具有糧食安全的責任所以我想大家都認知到這一點而且這點有高度的共識我想我們一起努力來做這方面的這個氧氣協會的理事長邱石恩一直在講不要講零關稅啦稍微降一點點那個整個雞肉市場那個影響就很大了所以要"},{"start":6695.211,"end":6709.714,"text":"要挺住啦,我是覺得要幫我們農民民要多爭取,這是第一,好不好?要爭取,不只不要零關稅,就很多關稅不應該動的就不要去動它了,對我們衝擊太大,好不好?另外,我剛剛特別講那一點就是他們美國,我知道美國一直有壓力"},{"start":6711.772,"end":6730.049,"text":"美豬的這個產地還有瘦肉精的這個要拿掉這個你要挺住喔這是嚴重影響到我們健康跟食安喔沒有我剛才我跟委員報告剛才我在接受訪問的時候我也強調了就是我們的所有的很多產品都有原產地標示不是只針對美國也不是只針對美國的豬肉"},{"start":6731.77,"end":6744.259,"text":"那原產力標是一個重要的就是讓消費者知道他的吃的東西是來自於哪個國家這是讓消費者吃的權利這是我想我們的態度是一致的是用這樣的方式"},{"start":6746.426,"end":6766.396,"text":"馬上馬上 部長美國那邊是有壓力一直要把這個拿掉對不對 把原產地這個拿掉 還有瘦肉精這個拿掉我想我們現在所看到的是他們的貿易障礙裡面的報告 那是一個官方的報告所以是壓力很大啊 所以我今天才會問了三次啊 要挺住啊 我們會堅持嘛對不對"},{"start":6767.897,"end":6795.743,"text":"對 我想我們一定會配合政府的整個政策去捍衛整個農民的權益跟確保產業的發展這是一個大前提跟大原則這影響到我們的健康跟食安喔要挺住好不好我們我相信全民跟立法院都會認可啦好不好我們一方面現在就是一方面就是美國當然會開他們的清單出來可是哪些地方我們不能讓特別是健康跟食安我絕對不能讓好不好挺住 好 大家謝謝好 好 來 謝謝"},{"start":6797.386,"end":6816.251,"text":"好 謝謝張祺凱委員那下一位請楊瓊英 楊委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言邀請兩位部長好 請郭部長跟陳部長喂吼"},{"start":6822.72,"end":6843.025,"text":"兩位部長好美國總統川普宣布對等的關稅那他的這個生肖日期進入了90天的豁免的談判期那請教部長你認為美國突然喊停決策的策略它的因素是什麼呢 郭部長"},{"start":6845.456,"end":6873.402,"text":"報告委員我想這個是他們的談判的這個手段那基本上他拋出一個這個高的這部分在美國的這個有他的自己一個做法那我們只能提因應的辦法因為大家都在對這個中間可能會發生什麼樣的變異大家都有做一些這個變異那但是因為他"},{"start":6874.642,"end":6897.027,"text":"在4月9號我們有70多個國家跟他表示願意跟他談我相信他很難這個在短期間裡面就做出一個正確的判斷所以他願意跟這個希望跟他談的人在90天裡面談完這個我想是他一個最大的一個改變最大因素也就是說很難在"},{"start":6898.809,"end":6908.467,"text":"很短的时间做正确的判断这是郭部长你认为他这一次的转变我的意思就是说每一个国家跟他谈之间的关系是不一样的"},{"start":6909.358,"end":6938.517,"text":"所以他认为他主要还是针对中国因为中国反对他所以他就在中国加税那这样子的话他对这些其他支持他的这些国家因为跟他谈的国家当然不会说到你马上遭受到一个很大的困扰所以我想这个是他们提出一个解决的方式抛出他美国的一个说90天大家来慢慢谈"},{"start":6938.817,"end":6960.865,"text":"好所以本席也認為這當然您所說的這個也是一個談判的技巧那也是一個因素那同時也本席也認為在美國的股票裡頭跟債券市場的壓力這個應該也是成為因素之一當然很多的因素很多的變化但是我們現在得到的答案也就是進入90天的這個"},{"start":6962.806,"end":6969.711,"text":"豁免的談判期但是我認為我們最重要的就是我們必須要理清楚我們就是理清楚美國在談判的時候呢他們想要什麼那我方又是什麼樣的主張那美國財政部長呢貝森特他也特別說了因為在其他的國家這七十幾個國家的談判中涉及到一系列的議題包括了這個LNG交易"},{"start":6992.646,"end":7004.149,"text":"非關稅貿易的帳 壁壘貨幣政策還有補貼等等每一個國家的量身定制是通通都會有所安排所以在這邊請教部長我們預期什麼時候可以開啟談判多久可以談那麼可否可以加速 請說明"},{"start":7015.25,"end":7030.187,"text":"报告委员我认为我们的状况相对简单我们跟美国是非常友好的两个国家第二个台美在科技上面其实是完全互补的"},{"start":7030.868,"end":7043.441,"text":"所以他認為這個是比較好談的所以我們也在表示我們願意跟他談其實在很早就跟他講我們願意跟他談所以我認為我們應該會在第一波談判的第一波會在三十天內會談嗎"},{"start":7047.385,"end":7067.308,"text":"至於這個是不是30天或者60天或者90天我想美國有美國的判斷但是我們以我們所準備的程度我們都會我們希望在第一波我們在第一波的時候怎麼談越早談對我們越有利我們在第二波的時候又要怎麼談這個我想我們有沙盤推演都有把這些情境來做分析然後做推演"},{"start":7067.608,"end":7085.518,"text":"昨天國防會的主委也說了他說了我們是優先那您今天說我們應該會在第一波那我們也希望因為越早談對我們是越有利這也是賴總統在投書彭博外媒的時候他提到"},{"start":7086.278,"end":7104.205,"text":"我國將要加大對美的採購那包括了什麼 能源 工業 農業所以我要請教部長喔這個是我們的方向嗎因為昨天本席請教你的時候你說要看美國想要談什麼那我說我們也要有我們自己的主張嘛要保障我國的產業跟農業"},{"start":7106.286,"end":7119.778,"text":"對不對好 所以在這樣的情況之下 本校要請教是不是總統既然投書了針對於能源工業以及農業那是不是你們兩位部長會朝這個方向這樣的項目 請說明經濟部會朝這個方向經濟部 那農業部呢"},{"start":7125.56,"end":7148.93,"text":"我想農業部有非常多的品項也是跟美國有高度互補所以在對互補性的這些農產品我們也會加大我們採購好 謝謝那再請教郭部長跟陳部長我們談判的方向 項目我們確認那請教我們預估我們的金額會有多大的規模你們一定有沙盤推演啊 郭部長"},{"start":7154.537,"end":7171.693,"text":"您的意思是說我們大概有多少報告委員我想這個都一直在加大隊沒採購嘛那你的金額你大概預估大概預估啦應該我們盤點政府的部分啦大概應該有兩千億美金可以談啦"},{"start":7172.593,"end":7195.802,"text":"兩千億美金可以談對然後還沒有加上這個民間的啦現在政府部門大概兩千億美金就是就政府跟國營始業在未來我們可以跟他談的金額大概就是兩千億美金那這裡面是包括我們大概十年我們規劃十年可以買進的十年政府部門大概兩千億美金"},{"start":7197.302,"end":7220.37,"text":"還沒有加上民間的所以我們現在還在整合民間可能購買的金額有多少那這樣子一包去跟他談的話可能更能夠有誘因因為政府說對美的天然氣那我們採購會擴大到三成這是昨天我們得到的訊息那麼是不是如此現在方向是不是如此方向應該是這樣子"},{"start":7221.65,"end":7235.003,"text":"方向是這樣子就是天然氣的部分會擴大到三成當然昨天你也談到阿拉斯加的這個天然氣的投資那請教郭部長還有其他能源的項目對美購買嗎請說說還是有啊還有有什麼項目呢"},{"start":7238.726,"end":7258.291,"text":"譬如說我們在能源有很多種科技上面的能源有一些科技的能源或者是我們有很多的我們在發電上所用的發電機這些都可以跟美國購買對 這些我們都是也擴大項目"},{"start":7263.049,"end":7279.144,"text":"就是我們盤點在未來十年內我們要投資的各項能源的措施包括有很多民間的這些智庫然後他們也推薦了很多新能源包括新能源"},{"start":7281.046,"end":7304.867,"text":"對 都有推薦讓我們做參考我們會把這些資料整合以後提供給台灣之前您也一直在說任何的新技術的能源那麼我們都採開放的態度是不是一樣這樣的立場所以這件事本下請教總統也提到在投書當中他也提到加大投資美國那他說看到電子"},{"start":7306.228,"end":7320.362,"text":"資訊以及資通這個通訊技術能源和石化等這些領域的新商機那請教我們是不是要推動這些產業到美國投資請教如何的來投資你規模又多大請教部長"},{"start":7321.102,"end":7348.842,"text":"國務部長報告委員我跟你講這個就是我們在調整在調整方向是這樣子但是廠商廠商願不願意跟著這個方向這個廠商做決定但是廠商一旦決定他們願意打國家隊然後到美國去成立一個這個可以整合的這樣的一個公司作為生產的時候我們就協助他出海落地所以這兩個方向協助他在管理上面來努力第一個協助產業如果產業願意"},{"start":7350.583,"end":7370.87,"text":"第二個如果產業還不達到的時候國營事業會鼓勵過去嗎我們有很多種方法啦國營事業會不會我們不一定要國營事業過去不一定要國營事業其實那個國營事業的產品去那邊沒有辦法製造再送給再銷售給美國國營事業不一定好那接下來本席要請教農業部長"},{"start":7372.851,"end":7387.234,"text":"非關稅貿易的這個障礙在當中呢你認為美方最在意的非關稅貿易障礙在你的這個主管範圍內你認為美方最在意的是什麼我們的立場又是什麼我想"},{"start":7388.567,"end":7407.463,"text":"非貿易關稅障礙裡面一個非常重要的就是我們針對某一些品項做有他的進口的額度的一個限制那以現在美國所關切的稻米的部分他們是關切稻米的關稅配額內的裡面的底價的訂定我們並沒有公開"},{"start":7408.524,"end":7422.769,"text":"那因為根據我們現在政府採購法我們底價是沒有公開的但是政府採購法也可以用另外一個方式我們可以採底價公開價低者得比底價越低的方式那這個部分我想我們也會做適當的調整"},{"start":7423.909,"end":7426.67,"text":"您就適當的調整因為總統的說法呢我們要跟美國是以零關稅的基礎來展開產干談判所以我們的農產很緊張在這樣情況之下甚至有學者評估那台美零關稅的話會我們的稻米我們的雞肉我們的豬我們的鮮奶會衝擊非常的大那到時候你要怎麼樣去保護我們譬如說米"},{"start":7451.917,"end":7469.964,"text":"如果零關稅 它的價格比我們低然後它又有大量的多樣式的優勢那當然米商會很緊張 我們的米的產業很緊張雞肉如果拿掉了關稅 那它的價格又降下來那我們的知己率可能達不到50%雞農很緊張 雞商也緊張那比如說我們的豬 也是同樣的這個狀況同樣這個狀況 那代表著如果"},{"start":7477.927,"end":7500.343,"text":"你會在談判的當中會將這一些的條件來鬆綁嗎我想剛才委員所提到這些針對我們糧食安全的相關的品項的部分我想我們農業部我們會堅守我們的立場堅守立場是什麼呢 會不會鬆綁產地的標示非常的重要安全性 萊克多巴胺也非常的重要"},{"start":7500.683,"end":7524.853,"text":"我們所有的跟美國的相關 你會不會鬆綁你的立場會不會鬆綁我們的立場就是我們要穩定我們台灣的產業我們要確保我們的農民的權益在這個前提之下我們不會讓步就是針對這樣子 好一句不會讓步我給部長說明2021年進口萊豬的時候您 我們的政府對台灣豬農以及消費者的承諾那這是絕對不能棄守的"},{"start":7528.864,"end":7549.71,"text":"棄守的社會也沒有辦法接受所以我要求一個資料一個資料也就是針對於如果零關稅我們衝擊這麼大的這些農產產業那你的具體措施要怎麼樣去保護他們你請書面資料給本席再請部長把書面資料給委員好 謝謝"},{"start":7557.455,"end":7579.88,"text":"好謝謝楊瓊英委員那我們這個鄭正前委員發言後休息5分鐘好請鄭委員發言謝謝主席我想請一下經濟部郭部長然後農業部陳部長還有我們財政部的李政次謝謝請上列官員"},{"start":7584.984,"end":7604.429,"text":"我想首先先請教一下三位因為接下來美國這邊要延長90天才執行對等關稅的部分我們開始要進入很重要的談判的階段賴總統提到一個我們要從零關稅開始談我想請教三位部長跟次長怎麼看我們零關稅這個主張先請郭部長"},{"start":7609.008,"end":7627.51,"text":"報告委員我想就零關總統雖然是指示零關稅開始談所以是零關稅開始談所以這個不是說談零關稅我想這個在質疑上面總統已經解釋了非常清楚零關稅其實是個目標嘛能不能達成其實是另外一件事嗎"},{"start":7628.39,"end":7642.333,"text":"那因為我們目前的這個稅率啊就工業品來講我們現在對美國大概4.8%美國呢是3.1%所以這個gap其實是不大會從這個上面去談然後這個製造業關稅降為0嗎政府大概沒有這個預設立場我剛才講是他從0開始來談"},{"start":7652.415,"end":7668.701,"text":"那整個談判他會整體考量我想這個談的目的總統的指示就是說對產業的影響要抓住所以提供給談判單位他們會去綜合的考量好 部長簡單您這部分這樣可以我想請教一下陳部長"},{"start":7672.95,"end":7693.711,"text":"跟委員報告農業的部分基本上相關目前因為目前的我們國內的農產品平均關稅是大概16.6那如果用貿易價錢的話大概9.3、9.4左右那是有比工業產品還高一點但是農業有農業的特殊性農業有確保糧食安全的一個非常重要的責任所以在未來談判的過程中"},{"start":7695.212,"end":7713.984,"text":"針對糧食安全必須要去確保這些品項我們都希望能夠維持我們現在處理的模式來確保我們產業的穩定性至於其他的一些美國輸出的比較少的對國內影響比較小的這些產品"},{"start":7716.727,"end":7725.445,"text":"談關稅的過程中也不是一步到位不管是關稅是談到多少也不是一步到位一定有它的其成那個請一下李政次"},{"start":7726.84,"end":7745.519,"text":"我們基本上財政部因為我們不是談判的代表但是呢剛才兩位部長講的就是我們的方向那我們財政部這邊的這個重要的政策就是說我們配合提供所有的關稅目前進出的好理解喔那我想問一下總統在講零關稅開始談的時候有沒有跟郭部長或陳部長這邊有溝通過這個部分"},{"start":7750.042,"end":7771.347,"text":"還是沒有就是行政院經貿談判辦公室他們就直接訂出一個這樣的一個策略我想整個談判本身行政院有行政院的一個招一個談判小組然後包括OTM的部分然後相關的這些所以他們之前在訂這個零關所以這有沒有跟陳部長或跟郭部長這邊有談過我們有交往過一些意見有交往過一些意見郭部長這邊"},{"start":7773.123,"end":7801.368,"text":"都有啦 這個不一樣OK 好那我為什麼特別這樣問的狀態其實是因為我們講零關稅因為我們對美的一個貿易順差有700億那很大一部分在我們高科技的產業坦白說或中小企業都有貢獻可是我們農業是逆差的我們以去年來講我們農業逆差大概28億對不對所以事實上在不同的狀態的時候我們要怎麼樣同樣用一個零關稅去談呢這是一件我覺得很值得去討論的事情"},{"start":7802.068,"end":7826.705,"text":"然後另外一個部分呢就是我昨天有特別請教郭部長一個狀態就是說因為有特別提到說行政院完成對盤點對農工石油天然氣產品的一個大量採購計畫嘛我昨天問說那我們政府這邊對這個所謂大量採購計畫的規模大概是多大你昨天跟我講說因為是談判的籌碼不能夠透露可是你剛剛跟楊瓊瑛委員講說我們政府大概預計要有兩千億的規模"},{"start":7829.287,"end":7854.287,"text":"對不對 兩清一的規模你覺得剛剛是回答楊強英委員這個部分嗎是 剛才回答的部分是我回去以後再了解一下的那大概是這樣的一個規模但是事實上談判啊 會用什麼樣的規模跟美方談判這個是我不清楚的事情OK 我只是要特別講的是因為昨天我在問這個部分的時候你跟我講說因為是一個談判的籌碼不能夠透露"},{"start":7855.127,"end":7883.301,"text":"可是剛剛楊軒文問的時候你直接講說我們政府採購大概會有2000億的規模10年然後還不含民間的一個部分所以我針對這部分的時候我想說部長這邊多了解的時候我在想說我這邊也不做太多的一個那個責難不過我很想知道我們到底有哪些籌碼在跟美國接下來這90天的談判過程當中的時候能夠為台灣爭取到最多的一個資源因為我這邊我要特別講一個情況是"},{"start":7884.682,"end":7911.32,"text":"川普目前在做關稅顯然其實是一個很清楚這是一個他的一個工具他其實是要讓整個很多全球的一個高科技的製造業能夠回流到美國去那台積電其實願意投資1000億的時候我昨天也特別問了就說他說台積電如果沒有兌現要課徵100%的關稅那你昨天是回我說你還不曉得這個狀態對那這當然是也許是一個放話部長這邊也要特別做補充"},{"start":7912.222,"end":7916.078,"text":"報告委員 昨天你的這個垂詢以後我們回去去了解這個命題"},{"start":7917.267,"end":7941.997,"text":"那這個是有這個智庫回應給我啦他說這個是川普在跟其他人談話的時候說你看我在把台積電啊帶到美國來他現在承諾要投資一千億美元是因為我之前告訴他你如果不來我就是要剋你可是前後邏輯有點不太一樣那是不同的話OK好理解"},{"start":7942.597,"end":7953.389,"text":"所以你覺得媒體報導有失真啦是這個意思對不對好那我接下來因為時間有限我就先直接進到一個狀態就是因為這次的那個880億當中的時候700億是經濟部主責嘛然後針對經濟部這邊出來是410億但農業部這邊有180億"},{"start":7961.738,"end":7988.524,"text":"那我想特別問一下因為我剛剛有特別提到說農業不止180億當中分成三大面向六大措施來做那其中有一個部分是開拓多元市場高達72億那我想請教一下陳部長因為農業部近年的一個年體媒體那個跟媒宣的費用大概都落在1.16億到1.46億之間然後這個已經是高居各部會的一個"},{"start":7989.804,"end":8008.114,"text":"之冠 前幾名那如果再加上特別預算和非營業的一個基金的時候整個媒體宣傳費在4.1.4億到2億之間也在排行也在各部會的一個前面現在用到72億要去做這樣的一個宣傳的時候那我們等於是"},{"start":8009.957,"end":8030.467,"text":"農業部三四十年的一個預算我們要怎麼去用我們請部長做一個說明我想委員誤解了我們所編列的國內外行銷不是在媒體放廣告行銷我們是真正的就我以國外的行銷來講分兩個部分一個是我們會鼓勵這些"},{"start":8031.667,"end":8047.015,"text":"目標的這些市場裡面的我們農產品拉的一個外銷獎勵然後另外一個部分是我們會帶我們的所有的業者重要的業者到不同的國家去參加展覽去做這樣的一個行銷那國內的行銷我們會結合賣場去做實質的對接"},{"start":8051.578,"end":8059.501,"text":"Event不是一個媒體行銷所以你講說這72億當中大部分是在做Event的行銷對不對 活動式的行銷對 然後還有外銷獎勵的部分跟外銷獎勵嘛因為我要特別講到說因為經濟部才410億然後農業部這180億可是因為整個的規模不一樣那我們其實在整個農業這個部分的時候我們剛剛也提到說我們密差是28億"},{"start":8078.687,"end":8100.388,"text":"算起來等於是不到三百億兩百九十幾億的台幣那我們要我們要花一百八十億來應對這樣子的一個狀態的時候在金融支持這二十四億我覺得可以沒有問題我去做一個農業的一個貸款補貼的一個支持我就沒有問題那提升產業競爭力這八十四億因為我看到這些工作是本來農業部就在做的工作"},{"start":8101.589,"end":8123.706,"text":"所以這個84億這邊的時候他現在在做我就不太理解說這不就是原本農業部本來就要做那我們針對這個美國這一次的關稅當中的時候我們直接把這個181億推出來的時候然後我們的效益到底在哪裡有沒有做過比較具體的一個評估還是因為時間很趕我們就把它列出一個目標框列出來"},{"start":8124.406,"end":8143.252,"text":"我想我們的一個目標因為整個外銷到美國如果受阻的話那第一個就是說我們農產品必須拉到其他的國家去可以會不會強化但是相對的國內的這些標章特別是強調標章的這個部分是在我們的過往的是沒有特別去強化它"},{"start":8143.832,"end":8164.224,"text":"那我們在一個體質的提升的部分我們希望說針對這個受衝擊的產業有更多的資金去預助讓他能夠快速的成長特別是中國現在目前關稅很高其實對我們來講是一個機會所以我們希望說有更多的這種海外的佈局跟海外的這種產品的一個輸出是一個機會"},{"start":8165.124,"end":8180.175,"text":"謝謝沈部長我在想我最後講兩個點就是為什麼一開始問到零關稅這個部分因為其實我們在WTO的框架當中的時候從GATT開始的時候我們如果是有零關稅它其實是要那個最惠國普遍的一個待遇"},{"start":8180.635,"end":8194.8,"text":"然後各國都出現這個狀態我們要對所有的WTA的國家都去面對同樣的狀態那對台灣的衝擊其實是很全面的這是一個點所以我看到關務署這邊原本的預計今年的預算是1623億"},{"start":8196.741,"end":8218.592,"text":"那我不知道這東西如果說真的是關稅用零關稅一談這時候會變多少這先不用回答沒有關係因為時間有限那我覺得我想特別提到一個點就是因為川普這次整個政策我看起來說事實上想讓製造業回流尤其是台灣有競爭優勢的高科技那這個部分跟郭共產這邊會有非常的相關那因為您之前也特別提到說"},{"start":8219.492,"end":8247.118,"text":"境外關內的概念那我在這邊要特別提到一個點就是說會不會在這過程當中的時候讓很多的台灣的高科技產業因為這一波當中反而出走之後然後影響到台灣就是他們要深耕台灣這樣的一個狀態這個部分可不可以請郭部長簡單回應一下報告委員我們對應這個關稅的部分我想剛才你所說的我們會不會到"},{"start":8248.479,"end":8272.951,"text":"到其他的地方去做投資建廠這個必須要根據每個業界每個廠商他們自己的能力跟他們的客戶的狀況來做決定針對這個部分我想各種的假設都有我們一直在盤點因為我們科技業確實跟美國是互補的這是一個其中的選項"},{"start":8273.911,"end":8292.835,"text":"不過對我們來講讓台灣台灣的製造業智慧製造更強大這個是我們主要的目標OK不過我這邊也特別提到一下因為台積電是一千億台幣說影響很大因為雖然說這幾年可能影響還不大因為原本台積電在台灣的投資就還繼續包括在嘉義"},{"start":8293.416,"end":8317.257,"text":"在台南在高雄在新竹都有台中有可是我覺得五年之後呢也許會不會全部的投資本投資都在美國那基本上就影響到台灣那再加上他如果說整個半導體的產業鏈生態系要一併移到美國去的時候我怕會對未來台灣的整個總體經濟還有消費跟投資都產生很大的一個影響"},{"start":8318.018,"end":8335.079,"text":"所以希望經濟部針對這部分能夠有更緊密更審慎的一個評估去判斷這部分我們會納入考慮謝謝謝謝鄭正前委員那我們現在就休息5分鐘"},{"start":8356.187,"end":8356.807,"text":"不用 不用 不用"},{"start":8388.062,"end":8391.925,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":8405.1,"end":8406.441,"text":"這裏有個小小的大廈。這裏有個大廈。"},{"start":8435.331,"end":8436.093,"text":"蜜桃"},{"start":8455.759,"end":8457.381,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳。"},{"start":8475.902,"end":8478.984,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":8503.477,"end":8507.359,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":8519.905,"end":8535.013,"text":"我的文字應該是用口吻的那應該就是,不用一直在講應該是用口吻的那我還真的不是有這個合適欸我還相當全面開放的我沒有這個合適的那一句也不太好聽"},{"start":8548.281,"end":8548.301,"text":"嗯?"},{"start":8561.038,"end":8564.541,"text":"你好 你好 你好 你好你好 你好 你好"},{"start":8590.725,"end":8603.251,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8621.003,"end":8621.783,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8650.652,"end":8651.773,"text":"就是說我們必須要"},{"start":8678.108,"end":8681.57,"text":"在這裏也沒有看見"},{"start":8702.634,"end":8704.776,"text":"你要一直喊一直喊"},{"start":8742.251,"end":8743.192,"text":"吃辣椒湯"},{"start":8783.09,"end":8783.33,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":8819.664,"end":8824.209,"text":"好現在繼續開會那下一位質詢請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":8837.948,"end":8862.605,"text":"主席 有請郭部長還有陳部長來 請兩位部長兩位部長好 大家辛苦了今天早上一早就聽到這個訊息美國總統川普真的是多變"},{"start":8864.966,"end":8877.194,"text":"所以暫時不提高對等關稅90天也就是三個月請教一下我們郭部長這裡面提到的75個已聯繫美國討論貿易相關議題且沒有對美國報復的國家對等關稅稅率會先維持在10%我們有沒有在這個75個國家裡面"},{"start":8891.226,"end":8917.405,"text":"我們是在75%的國家裡面所以呢未來先維持14%是什麼時候開始從4月9號開始就是昨天的中午開始的這一階段所以本來是32%我們其實是4月5號以後出口到這個美國的然後在5月27號以前到達美國的這一些貨就是10%"},{"start":8918.874,"end":8927.119,"text":"然後我們本來是昨天中午12點以後出口到美國的要打32%現在被豁免這些都是10%所以是10%這個在花蓮就有兩萬斤如魚被通知暫緩出貨"},{"start":8941.997,"end":8950.902,"text":"所以這個部分不只是這個業者因為有90天的期間所以經濟部還有這個我是舉這個例子所以經濟部跟農業部"},{"start":8958.966,"end":8985.111,"text":"還有其他相關部會就是要去通知業者因為不見得知道有90天一般的業者所以未必知道 也未必能夠讓他們知道當然就是能夠協助他們繼續出貨因為本來被通知不出貨了我們看農業部的報告裡面"},{"start":8988.595,"end":9014.782,"text":"特別提到這個我國有22.3%的進口農產品來自美國進口值為36.9億美元為美國第八大的海外市場在這樣一個情形之下無論是現在的10%或未來的32%或者是未來的情況不知道談判的結果不知道"},{"start":9016.772,"end":9028.07,"text":"这样的一个情形之下这边提到的美国的产品苏台的产品黄豆 玉米 小麦及牛肉所以这些进来了之后"},{"start":9029.593,"end":9056.024,"text":"會更便宜是不是這樣不是如果是從美國進到台灣的話是以台灣的關稅為主不是那會降低啊他那個32%沒有那是我們輸出的產品這兩個是不一樣的我知道那進來呢對進來的部分現在目前我們台灣的關稅並沒有改變我們現在台灣目前的關稅這邊沒有改變那以現在目前他會不會讓我們改變"},{"start":9058.604,"end":9069.471,"text":"那後續就是要看後面雙方的一個談判那談判的部分我剛才特別強調就是在談判的過程中我知道我只是提醒這個"},{"start":9071.617,"end":9093.394,"text":"農業部這個部分寫是這樣寫大家因為很多的這個那個鄉親看了以為是這樣就沒有問題這個也是要有列為因應因應的措施好不好好另外就是說出口方面出口方面這個裡面也提到這個我們輸出到這個"},{"start":9094.656,"end":9115.273,"text":"美國的這個比例也是相當高所以這樣的一個像花卉、水產品等多種的農產品銷售不出去假設了以32%的話就當然銷售不出去了會有影響然後這個我們這邊就會"},{"start":9120.026,"end":9135.884,"text":"會產生怎麼樣的因素各方面都要讓農第一個業者農民農民知道這個是一個要做比較詳細的一個準備了何況現在又有90天的"},{"start":9137.209,"end":9161.119,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們在原來32%的關稅之下其實我們已經啟動了從昨天開始就啟動了所有的主要衝擊產業的一個座談那這個座談不會因為它延了90天我們就停止我們還是會持續的去跟我們的業者了解我們業者對這樣的一個關稅的調整他們的一個想法跟意見來做後續我們政策的一個參考好"},{"start":9163.674,"end":9168.616,"text":"這個就是要去加強 無論是這個農業部或是這個經濟部都是一樣 都是一樣當然這個就農產品來講 這個如果是32%相關我們的蝴蝶蘭紅茶葉毛豆 蘆蝸魚 骨頭刀 鱸魚"},{"start":9181.903,"end":9206.23,"text":"當然這個就農業部主要認為會影響比較多的是茶葉、吳郭蟻、鬼頭刀、如蟻這些這個都是需要去加強去因應的我們會持續尤其是現在又多了一個90天所以當然很重要的就是昨天跟國務部長講的談判"},{"start":9209.854,"end":9223.582,"text":"談判怎麼樣把自己的籌碼善用昨天我的建議未必正確但是我認為的籌碼所以這個部分也善用另外就是說這個時間的關係"},{"start":9230.198,"end":9258.215,"text":"這個國發會昨天的報告裡面這個經濟部昨天也有報告了這個提出880億元的這個880億元的這個支持方案這裡面其中經濟部是700億700億農業部是180億而經濟部裡面第一個跟農業部一樣都是寫金融支持第一個當然這個還有其他的部分"},{"start":9259.5,"end":9276.186,"text":"那因為今天的報告我也看到了這個財政部的報告了他們也有這個相關這些金融的支持所以這個部分你們也有互相溝通協調不要去怎麼樣能夠去這個是他們"},{"start":9278.308,"end":9305.341,"text":"原來就可以做不需要花另外的錢的部分可以做更好的處理然後這裡面這個881也不算很多錢怎麼樣善用我主要的意思是說怎麼樣善用尤其是除了以經濟部來講除了中小企業業者之外"},{"start":9306.394,"end":9335.385,"text":"安定就業勞工的部分勞工的部分怎麼樣去支持以農業的話就農民的部分到後來最受害的就是勞工還有農民所以這個有限的880億能夠善用好不好好謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員"},{"start":9337.028,"end":9355.933,"text":"那下一個請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請郭部長還有陳部長好請兩位部長"},{"start":9359.236,"end":9384.855,"text":"今天最新的消息美國的總統川普突然宣布就是針對75個國家對等關稅將延後90天執行那大家可能有一些人是鬆了一口氣但是本席認為這不是解套這只是延長比賽該做的事還是都要做那因為90天很快就過了這應該不影響我們現在目前所規劃的880億的計畫吧兩位部長"},{"start":9388.846,"end":9400.814,"text":"基本上是的那目前這880億請問兩位的這個分配是怎麼樣請問經濟部是多少錢這個農業部是多少錢呢經濟部本身410億農業部180億你們覺得這樣夠嗎"},{"start":9405.711,"end":9431.43,"text":"這是第一階段嘛第一階段所以後續還會有第二階段那昨天呢本席其實向經濟部也提出了幾個這個建議那很感謝部長給了非常積極的回應面對這一次的困難本席認為朝野都必須一同努力來度過這個危機那昨天呢本席在地方聽了非常多的意見所以今天在替企業向您反映有部分企業"},{"start":9432.29,"end":9456.983,"text":"因為被撤單或者是減單導致產量縮減那企業原本跟台電簽的這個契約容量可能會過多那他們希望經濟部跟台電能夠給予企業更多的彈性因為譬如說因為砍單效應而導致的用電量不如預期那對於這些企業是否可以先降低他的基本費率呢"},{"start":9459.773,"end":9476.425,"text":"那由於局勢一直在變化可能也不適合立刻更改契約針對這些受影響的這些企業是不是部長可以請他們研議來做一個更彈性的做法呢是 我們來考慮怎麼樣來協助他們"},{"start":9477.27,"end":9489.841,"text":"好因為呢其實企業容量是企業自己評估的可是目前來說很難去評估說下一個階段到底會發生什麼事就好像我們大家都不知道美國會突然對我們課32%的稅那我們今天早上"},{"start":9492.984,"end":9499.726,"text":"之前也都不知道說美國又會突然說又要變成10%所以我們都不知道說接下來的談判結果是很難預期的所以這些企業其實沒有要佔台電便宜因為坦單效應的話他也不會用那麼多的電假設我們一直維持原本的這個契約容量反而是台電趁著這一次的危機佔了企業的便宜所以希望說在這個事件有定論之前先讓企業有個彈性請拜託部長"},{"start":9522.972,"end":9548.841,"text":"一定要來協助這些企業我們會協助企業度過這個難關這個是我們第一要務那我們再看他為什麼會被砍單現在已經恢復到這個10%了對他來講實在是沒有延後假設90天以後我們會在這90天裡面看看我們最後談判的結果是怎麼樣再提出第二波的輔助跟協助的方案"},{"start":9549.141,"end":9558.576,"text":"另外有一個情況就跟這補助有關係了過去那COVID的時候我們有一個紓困方案等於是疫情後的紓困方案那有一些企業現在還在核銷的這個過程當中還沒有完成"},{"start":9564.485,"end":9580.277,"text":"但現在又遇到這個關稅事件所以如果要申請這一些補助的話目前來說他們是不符合資格的他必須先結案之後才可以那這個部分可不可以請部長明確的指示說兩個案子可以脫鉤處理"},{"start":9582.667,"end":9602.418,"text":"應該是可以脫鉤處理 這個我們會趕快研究好 謝謝 那包括經濟部這一邊就是有沒有可能比照COVID-19的時候給這些受影響的企業這個貸款展延然後能夠不抽銀根 那放寬這個信保的審查跟這個作業的流程呢"},{"start":9603.466,"end":9625.498,"text":"報告委員這個都有我們已經在上一波的這個公告上面都說得非常的清楚我們是展延六個月那這個也不會說加條件我們是放寬是那加速是這一點要拜託經濟部然後部長多多用心來關懷這些企業我想大家一起努力來渡過難關那接下來我想要請教一下農業部是不是請郭部長先請回好了"},{"start":9630.287,"end":9644.926,"text":"那這一次想要一起度過這個難關然後守護農民的心我想跟部長都是一樣的那我想要先請教一下部長我們的談判團從零關稅談起您的看法為何"},{"start":9645.467,"end":9668.534,"text":"我想總統所說的零關稅談起不是代表說全部都零關稅那以農業部門來講其實農業部門一個非常重要也是委員所關心的其實農業是守護我們糧食安全的一個非常重要的責任所以後續在談判的過程中我們一定會確保我們的產業能夠穩定而且永續發展我們的農民一定能夠保障的前提之下來處理"},{"start":9669.494,"end":9689.614,"text":"那本席也想要請教一下請問所有的這些我們剛才講到的我們的農產品是不是也包含在零關稅的範圍之內呢我想所有的談判絕對不是說農產品只談農產品或只談工業產品是整個對美貿易的產品都一起來談"},{"start":9690.96,"end":9704.939,"text":"所以呢部長說實在您是非常辛苦您這個角色非常辛苦因為你要守護住農民喔就靠你了因為呢中華民國養雞協會的理事長邱時恩他就講WTO的時候就已經"},{"start":9706.021,"end":9714.432,"text":"農業就已經犧牲過一次了那我們不希望再讓農業犧牲一次希望可以維持現狀包括白肉雞的關稅維持20%然後雞蛋的進口關稅30%希望可以維持現狀那養豬協會的這個潘連周理事長"},{"start":9722.924,"end":9748.64,"text":"他也要求說美國怎麼會來要求我們的豬肉不要標示產地呢讓國人連選擇的權利都沒有犧牲台灣的農民對我們的農民跟消費者都不公平所以呢農畜產品絕對不能夠零關稅這一點也希望說部長能夠有所堅持那美國養豬的成本是我們台灣的可能將近"},{"start":9749.92,"end":9772.856,"text":"可能只有一半而已所以呢如果假設美豬大舉來台的話對我們的業者是剉雷彈所以這個產地標示的原則拜託部長一定要挺住部長您能夠承諾嗎我想後續的談判一定配合政府的整體的談判策略但是以農業部門來講包括我們的產業的一個聲音其實我們農業部都非常了解而且已經有適時的去轉達這樣的一個聲音"},{"start":9775.638,"end":9796.304,"text":"還是回到一個就是我們在談判我們不會針對影響到我們產業的穩定發展的這些品項去讓步但是本席也很擔心喔因為美國是全球農業最強的這個出口最強國連稻米他都出口那這一次稻米有沒有可能成為美國要求擴大進口的項目呢"},{"start":9796.724,"end":9812.615,"text":"我想美國他所公告的這個那個貿易的障礙的報告裡面他所就道美來講他說關切的是在這個關稅配額的時候國家配額裡面的底價的訂定啦他覺得不夠透明那這個部分我想我們有適度的調整"},{"start":9813.115,"end":9826.779,"text":"是因為稻作幾乎占全台灣農民的兩至三成所以這影響會非常的大那本席就是希望具體要求說最弱勢最無助的這些基層農民絕對不能被犧牲就算為了談判我們擴大進口了農產品包括稻米或者是其他的續產品希望這些農產品不要輕易的進入我們台灣的市場請問部長"},{"start":9840.683,"end":9844.368,"text":"你理解我講的嗎就是說你就算買進來了你為了我們國家的未來你不得已你必須要買這些農產品是不是買進來了之後不要讓它流入我們台灣的市場來穩定我們台灣這些農民的這些權益跟消費者的這些食安問題"},{"start":9859.702,"end":9888.765,"text":"我覺得以現在目前稻米的國家配合來講都是由政府去購買進來放在我們的工糧倉庫裡面的所以我還是強調不管後續的談判怎麼樣我們會堅守我們對產業有影響的我們一定會堅持而且談判的過程裡面不是說關稅談到某個程度是立即降稅它還有很多的這種配套的作為那我們一定會爭取我們對我們台灣農產業最有利的方向去跟他們做溝通"},{"start":9888.985,"end":9904.953,"text":"是部長只要你朝著這個方向去我相信喔不只農民是你的後盾我們立法院包括經濟委員會所有的委員也會是你的後盾那另外我還想要再提出的就是包括我們雲林影響非常大的就是這個台灣雕啊台灣雕呢"},{"start":9905.393,"end":9934.893,"text":"他非常有可能受影響那他也希望農業部可以盡快的協助他們去開拓其他的高端市場那這一點我在報告裡面有看到你們有提出但是具體怎麼做怎麼去申請沒有資料所以我想這個部分應該不用等880億通過之後再來做因為這應該是農業部本來就應該在關心的事情所以請部長是不是能夠著手加快這個進度協助這些業者來開拓其他的海外市場"},{"start":9935.673,"end":9955.519,"text":"跟委員報告,那個台灣貂的部分其實我昨天在前陣漁港我們的漁業分組已經召集了所有台灣貂的業者去座談了那相關的整個的一個細節,我就希望說我們聽取的意見以後,我會在4月應該4月14號,照原來的原定的時程是在4月14號會把這個細節公告啦"},{"start":9957.219,"end":9974.922,"text":"那這個部分是不是也提供給本席辦公室好嗎因為我們公告的沒有我們這個方案準備好的時候我們會公告但是現在因為遇到有一個問題就是他的關稅就是32%現在暫緩時是90天嘛那是不是如期啟動我想可能這個要必須要去討論"},{"start":9975.703,"end":9983.385,"text":"就是也許可以讓他們先知道說假設起到了32%他們會面臨的是什麼問題我想如果說32%的關稅的話我們的相關的辦法是什麼先讓他們知道那他們也會有一些心理的適應因為畢竟這對他們來說是一個很大的衝擊那我想只要我們一起站在保護農民的出發點上農業部應該是能夠有很多積極的作為我們一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":10009.785,"end":10030.147,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員那下一位請陳超明委員質詢首先有請我們財政部我們的理事長請理事長"},{"start":10037.797,"end":10052.326,"text":"首先我請教我們的理事長根據我們的資料顯示3月底我們的外匯存底是5780億美金那又根據報導我們投資在美國國債是92%等於是5200億美金那現在美國的國債是負債36兆美金"},{"start":10065.131,"end":10081.582,"text":"一年的利息就要增加一兆多的美金那現在美國發起這個關稅戰當然現在90千的款重啟出來了但是我請教你他會不會在這個關稅戰裡面來跟我們談條件"},{"start":10085.575,"end":10108.906,"text":"譬如三年的美國國債三個月的美國國債你幫我延遲三年十年的美國國債你幫我延遲二十年三十年的美國國債延到五十年第二個可能他會跟你偷偷的暗中要求不要付利息你們會不會遭遇到這樣的情形"},{"start":10110.082,"end":10137.158,"text":"包委因為當然談判的內容我們現在也不是很清楚那當然這個部分我沒有辦法在這邊回應沒有辦法在這邊講我是簡直來叫你要注意川普生意人他會算這個我看他主要的目的就在這個地方所以你們要有準備經濟部長帶著微笑表示他認同還有一點現在兩岸的關係非常的嚴峻"},{"start":10138.77,"end":10155.588,"text":"兩邊一開戰的時候我們做五千七百億的美債外匯存頂萬一不像台灣失敗的話做五千七百億的那個我們的"},{"start":10157.386,"end":10180.245,"text":"外匯存頂到底是死於中華人民共和國還是台灣獨立國還是台灣民主國還是美利堅共和國會歸死到哪裡這個情形有可能發生喔你不要笑笑不做準備阿委員非常高瞻眼主啦不是高瞻眼主是位於昨秒"},{"start":10181.917,"end":10201.863,"text":"先退下之憂而憂 後退下之樂而樂我看這個情況也要特別注意啊當然這個問題不能深談啦是 對 謝謝委員但是點出來 特別注意一下私底下再跟你請教啦有可能發生 有可能發生好不好 請回座然後我來請我們的農業部長請農業部長喂好 陳部長好"},{"start":10210.936,"end":10237.388,"text":"那我們現在談判我們賴總統我們執政黨提出零居關稅的談判美國是農業大國我現在請教你一個事實的問題我們從美國進口的農產品比我們銷到美國的農產品一年大概差多少我們是勝差還是逆差逆差28億逆差多少28億"},{"start":10239.318,"end":10253.756,"text":"加起來28億我們黃豆什麼都進口美國我們從美國買的東西36.9億我們銷到美國的是8.9億所以逆差是28億我們怎麼會進口那麼少我們不是疫苗啊我講的是美金喔好"},{"start":10256.38,"end":10281.067,"text":"那你在這樣的一個狀況之下你所有的農產品我們這邊是逆差他順差你最好不要調不然會害死我們台灣農民你們敢不敢這樣紀理立生這個是一個談判的條件我想雙方的這些關稅的談判一定是基於雙方互贏的方向我說我們用這個來談"},{"start":10283.951,"end":10292.57,"text":"28.多億跟我們8.9億在那幾兆進出口裡面那個微微的毛毛移的那個好像是我們在推你們要堅持計算"},{"start":10294.69,"end":10311.981,"text":"因為我現在先跟你講你開放聯基關稅不是對美國的問題台灣的地位你也曉得為了維持各個友邦的關係如果其他國家提出來跟美國一樣聯基關稅稅金你要怎樣這個才是重點這個才是問題啊"},{"start":10314.758,"end":10333.232,"text":"我想所有的關稅談判裡面喔其實不同的國家也是一樣喔農業它有它的特性所以農業本身的這些談判絕對不是說所有的品項都是零關稅我覺得台灣的農業只夠來再繼續八年的執政政案下來會很慘第一個 精緻農業一定要堅持第二個 能量物理要做好"},{"start":10334.571,"end":10351.186,"text":"第三個生存加工要做好其實世界很廣大台灣人很聰明可以調各種料理就是最好的料理你們要不要在這方面研究我覺得你要改進到這個地方你才有辦法我們台灣農業歷史世界不然自己丟在這裡"},{"start":10354.409,"end":10381.026,"text":"可以說自給自足而已不然你就只顧自己自給自足就好如果你以你們這樣的作為沒有新的私的作為現在我去看了很多工廠做的加工的產業做得非常清楚非常好現在人不煮飯啦這裡面的小姐都不會煮也不會殺雞殺鴨殺鵝啊不像我們改變觀念改變思維台灣的農業才有救"},{"start":10382.126,"end":10402.021,"text":"謝謝委員的建議 其實我們已經在做了很多農產品的加工加值其實它的加工效益會比較大像中東你要消氣 你要曉得它的外勞有多少哪一個地方的外勞 什麼口味去研究嘛有沒有跑過那個地方 我曉得啦好不好 因為我要問政治部長好不好 好好 請回座"},{"start":10414.721,"end":10441.684,"text":"郭部長好我今天的主題我有一個吃中的朋友很要好他是順利死於台獨了而且每次總統選舉特地趕回來台灣可以請假一個月替你們自治黨服刑那他為什麼雖然我吃中好友他為什麼會支持我他說我最不像自治人物的政治人物"},{"start":10443.24,"end":10470.392,"text":"那我今天他發給的內容我讀給你聽我也不曉得他發這個內容我覺得他思想改變了他跟我講因為美國已經沒有政治才使世界大失所望因為中國要強國而不是幸福大國那裡面川普說台積電是假拖"},{"start":10471.598,"end":10487.046,"text":"他住在偉大的美利均共和國那美國就是強盜盜的這他寫給我一個簡訊表示他們的憤怒台灣幾十年的辛辛苦苦捐起來的IC產業"},{"start":10488.53,"end":10504.634,"text":"你曉得以前成衣外銷大概要一百個貨櫃才能換他一台戰車一個飛彈我們是趕空前去賺的他們在榮華富貴在享受他不會忘記這一切大事罷錢罷職那我以這個事情我要問你請教你幾個問題台積電很重要"},{"start":10514.42,"end":10530.516,"text":"美國威脅說你台積電不來建廠我就100%的關稅那美國他只要要掌握40%的產量控制且限制台灣台積電以後未來的外銷他有限制在"},{"start":10531.601,"end":10560.251,"text":"中國在美國上山 臺灣現在上山要怎麼應付被他限制的時時 用的地方會大概那幾個國家在使用他會去用 會在周邊的應用所以臺灣的電子竊 包括台積電在臺灣何去何從 你有想到嗎我這點你要先研究那你們以前也信誓旦旦說台積電的演化中心一定會不會到美國"},{"start":10561.511,"end":10583.999,"text":"人家大國啊,不用嘴巴講得很滿啊你們現在乖乖也是要過去以前在修理台積電核心的商業精密核心的技術都要給他你們現在都不敢講當時對台灣我們愛台灣的保障在哪裡?絕對不被研發中心精密資料不被給他乖乖的奉送給他們另外我還要請教你統一作黨這個要特別注意"},{"start":10590.762,"end":10617.964,"text":"台積電跟英特爾 國安會 劉思維說柴油跟汽油不能混合那我也很奇怪 到底能不能混合因為這個卡路里有托勞斯萊斯什麼安置在他也想要製造一個嗆艇養一隻老虎來去咬台積電 怕他萬一受打這你要去考慮一下不然台灣會去要行行叩叩 白風扇給別人"},{"start":10619.265,"end":10631.084,"text":"再來我要跟你談到第三點IC的成熟製品現在零電是世界第四大的它要跟那個美國什麼格羅荒"},{"start":10633.163,"end":10649.726,"text":"什麼公司第五大要合併我看是有可能你們講不可能報紙都寫你要去談判你要好好談判第一大的已經被拿走了第二大又被拿走了台灣剩下什麼跟我講好好的講剩下什麼"},{"start":10651.226,"end":10677.708,"text":"你們想來要知道,這臺灣的感恐你以前有那小企業一直做到現在一個算起來也是一個中大企業每一步每一步都是臺灣人辛苦流血流亂自己打造出來,窮苦了人家沒有人保護你,只有自律專人不要輕易把臺灣打造到現在你們就輕易放鬆給別人,不要危殆"},{"start":10679.011,"end":10703.626,"text":"可以去忍受就忍受我就要跟你說所以你要記得台灣剩下什麼但是我說台灣的企業家就是游牧民主哪裡有回炒就完了很可憐的不然你們八年的執政提了好幾個政策我現在也在聽別人 還原台商回台投資行動方案"},{"start":10707.967,"end":10722.623,"text":"恍恍惚惚 熱熱鬧鬧 確實很多台商回來了第二個 更留台灣企業加速投資行動方案再來中小企業加速投資方案 這些人花了幾十萬在這裡 要購台灣這個工啊"},{"start":10726.063,"end":10752.278,"text":"要更留台灣喔蔡英文當總統的時候就推動南向政策鼓勵中國在大陸的台商往東南亞去走我今天你又看得不錯我們的賴執政黨的賴子熙我們現在的賴總統說要偷中日本我們要順化經貿"},{"start":10754.261,"end":10770.252,"text":"以美益其轉型,又以最有經濟的實力,立足台灣,步及全球,形成全球的台灣,再激勢與人才相互依賴。但是我總得要強調,從此趨勢很厲害,"},{"start":10777.165,"end":10787.595,"text":"歐美的白種人永遠看不起蝗蟲我要跟你講這根深蒂固除了日本人以外他稍微不起勢仔細站起來"},{"start":10789.076,"end":10815.943,"text":"他把中國大陸講鄉巴佬台灣是不是鄉巴佬你去別人找才不會去別人找各種文化有很多不一樣我現在懷疑你們是把台灣這隻羊送入到那白種人歐美的虎口裡面我們自己做什麼台灣的外交關係能保護多少台商你講我們都心知肚明"},{"start":10817.287,"end":10842.317,"text":"站起來我就不講多,你也不用回答,我把我心中的感受跟你講順滋順滋,台灣這塊土地搞得好,不只你的執政黨,東西南北都要遊牧民族變民搞得現在都不曉,感染藥感染又放下,哪邊有草可以吃都是你們提出來八年時間的變化,東西南北征戰"},{"start":10843.783,"end":10861.638,"text":"台商都到現在一無所有倒是在水深火熱在掙扎之中他賺的外匯是離不來台灣你們真的要好好愛惜這塊土地那我跟你講中小企業會變成一個痛苦區然後我跟台積電幾個高階主管"},{"start":10863.669,"end":10879.479,"text":"痛苦期就要磨練自己技術要磨要深化提升它的價值在中小企業大量的就中小企業如果台灣沒有留置中小企業就沒有未來台灣中小企業"},{"start":10881.45,"end":10897.097,"text":"是真的是跟佔了70部分就業人口大企業你不要去管他現在錢多多你反而要照顧中小企業他自從進入已經有國際的錢了主席佔了那麼久"},{"start":10898.238,"end":10920.618,"text":"我坐下來一談到執政團他就站起來了我是真心的為台灣我是蔣經營人謝謝委員的提示不是提示啦 感受遠深啦你可能平反時我們會更獲取更大的利益我們有技術的本領嘛我們獨一無二嘛"},{"start":10922.631,"end":10937.562,"text":"接下來我相信你自己能感受得到台灣在助力更生 助力成長的過程我們是驕傲的台灣但是不要被執政黨出賣掉 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝我們陳委員語重心長來 那我請賴委員好 謝謝接下來我們請蔡宇昭委發言"},{"start":10960.503,"end":10963.933,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":10972.714,"end":10990.729,"text":"委員部長這個局勢變化很大啦昨天還不到24小時前我是也是站在這裡啦那是跟部長去說事實上我們在跟美國竟然進入談判那去爭取看能不能暫緩這個32%"},{"start":10993.371,"end":11014.094,"text":"那部長也說你會努力 那昨天我看在場還被黃國昌委員當場 把你羞辱一下啦但是我想你也是很不急不緩的那大概也是跟他說出 基本上我們行政院包括我們經濟部會持續努力 然後在談判上爭取最好的條件那想不到"},{"start":11014.975,"end":11033.493,"text":"一個深夜過去川普的改變改變他的藝術功這個32%進入所謂90天的一個談判期那除了中國 125%所以這個代表的一個意義就是說在這段期間我們看到很多在野黨的人竟然在川普32%後"},{"start":11035.233,"end":11052.514,"text":"他不去講談判當然也有講只是他們不斷的在強調一件事就是說我們要對美國採取報復性的關稅也就是跟著中國做一樣的動作那如果我們當時還真的行政院去附和儘管沒有做只要有附和這樣的話"},{"start":11053.955,"end":11066.275,"text":"我想這件事可能就嚴重了所以部長所以當時有這麼多人對你們不管是在任何場合在那邊批判然後供你們要採取報復性關稅那我們經濟部有這樣的考慮過嗎"},{"start":11068.886,"end":11089.956,"text":"報告委員所有的情境都是在我們的掌握之中好的狀況是怎麼樣子那最差的狀況會怎麼樣我們會提供各種情境的分析那麼提供給談判小組他們作為參考這是一個非常大的一個關鍵的部分那我們"},{"start":11090.956,"end":11102.284,"text":"也了解說這個迫在眉睫的部分就是在昨天的那個時間昨天中午到了這個32%關稅這是最差的狀況對但是我們經過訪談很多的這個業者我們在分來能夠盤出這個輕重緩急來針對我們發現對中小企業以及關鍵的這一些傳統產業可能招受到的這樣的一個打擊會比較大"},{"start":11121.276,"end":11135.461,"text":"所以我們也建議這個談判單位應該對這個關稅的談判要盡快讓他們去跟美國談到美國可以接受的這樣的關稅但是我們所做的判斷都是以32%"},{"start":11137.082,"end":11160.627,"text":"可能很難談下來的這個情境來作為我們第一個考慮就是最壞的打算最壞的打算要對產業的一些協助如果能夠談到這個大家這個美國啊美國希望說對他最有利的這個條件之下我想大家比起去這個整合那對經濟部來講我們"},{"start":11163.247,"end":11189.199,"text":"當下跟過去跟昨天最大的不一樣是只有在這個內容跟速度上面做一些這個緩和做一些調適但是第一點是沒有改變的就是對這些中小微企業跟這些傳統產業當他們面臨到可能被抽單可能這個被post form這一些這個要件而造成他金融上面的這個困擾"},{"start":11190.76,"end":11214.008,"text":"這一點部長就是我們昨天在講的嘛怎麼讓協助他們避免他們的商品被延後延後交貨然後墩毀然後增加他們整個外部成本所以這個是讓昨天都有討論所以這段時間我們真的是覺得很遺憾怎麼會有在野黨他直接批判說對美國不報復就是對美投降的談話或者是"},{"start":11215.068,"end":11232.415,"text":"甚至在野黨的總統、副總統候選人還直接講說以後就是不要再對美國投資我認為這些都比較離間了所以我們還是要回到跟美國談判的本質就是說我們可能會加碼"},{"start":11233.355,"end":11256.484,"text":"對美國不管是在能源的一些採購或者是有講到農產品或者是其他的一個採購但是我想萬本歸宗這一次美國對75個國家他們先用10%的一個關稅唯獨中國例外事實上這個也是一個很強烈的image就是說現在中美的貿易大戰2.0正式開打"},{"start":11258.344,"end":11265.811,"text":"這個正式開打的就是125%起跳所以這個在125%起跳的一個前提之下最怕的是什麼?是產地"},{"start":11269.031,"end":11290.768,"text":"現在對於很多可能在中國有投資的生意人來說他們在中國要出貨他們面對的壓力,這個125%這個壓力非常的巨大而且我看到今天已經很多新聞都爆出來中國的很多的工廠都已經直接說好,先暫時歇業,暫時都工廠都先發動,都沒辦法生產"},{"start":11294.13,"end":11316.57,"text":"那就是因為他們現在要消去美國 他們一百二十五% 他們根本不會消錢所以這個時候會有很多投機的人要採取用第三方比如說他頓入台灣 頓入越南 然後銷售到美國但我們無法管其他國家的事情我們台灣自己這一端一定要控制好所以部長你們有怎樣的一個因應作為嗎"},{"start":11317.19,"end":11331.327,"text":"我們對違規轉運大概有幾個做法第一個就是加強入貨的監測包括銷台或者銷到美國的第二個加強對業者宣傳畢竟他是我們的國人當然"},{"start":11332.128,"end":11351.333,"text":"然後第三個建立這個違規業者的名單把這個名單就是公開這個表述第四個如果一旦他還是違規我們裁罰就必須要重演第五運用這個反傾銷的措施大概有這個五點不過我們還是建議這些廠商他們"},{"start":11352.622,"end":11371.14,"text":"不要回台灣就是說因為回台灣會違反這個美國的稀產地的這個規範這個是美國當今最重要的一個措施事實上它很明顯但是我們可以協助他們在其他的生產地他們其他都有一些工廠包括他們可能在越南可能在泰國那這些都已經被"},{"start":11373.061,"end":11396.014,"text":"這個怎麼講,就回到那個時拍因為我們看到在野黨有一個法案他們希望在金門變成一個叫做自經區這樣的一個法案未來很有可能會變成大量息產地的一個地方這是我一個事情,雖然這個法案還沒有通過但是我們要未雨成謀,有這樣的一個法案的存在是,謝謝委員提醒好,那部長可以先回,我再問一個農業的問題"},{"start":11405.229,"end":11417.506,"text":"這個部長事實上剛剛很多委員都有對你垂詢過了就是說因為現在農業我們如果要開始談的話基本上對農業的衝擊非常的大所以這一次八百億中農業部大概就181要協助這些農民"},{"start":11420.109,"end":11439.316,"text":"那在未來跟美國的談判事實上我們所宣示的不管是能源不管是我們對農產品尤其美國是很多農產品的一個大宗台灣又幾乎是美國農產品出口的主要國家包括這個加其內台灣是美國的第五大出口國大豆"},{"start":11439.776,"end":11458.063,"text":"是美國的第七大出口國牛肉是美國的第六大出口國那水果是美國的第四大出口國玉米是美國的第六大出口國小麥也是第六大出口國所以我們可以知道說台灣雖然我們的人口雖然不多"},{"start":11459.264,"end":11476.801,"text":"可是我們是一個對美國來說是一個購買力很強健的一個國家那所以美國會對我們會去盯著我們的農產品尤其他又對我們的稻米啦對我們的豬肉都直接點名說這個有貿易障礙"},{"start":11477.742,"end":11501.754,"text":"所以部長你會面對很大的壓力一方面你一定要守護住我們農民的一個權利因為很多事實上農產品就是一個國家要怎麼保護自己的國家這個每個國家都會做包括日本、歐盟事實上剛才說的這個產品標示日本、歐盟也都有在做產品標示台灣不是特例但是這一些措施都被美國視為眼中釘"},{"start":11503.328,"end":11513.327,"text":"所以部長 我覺得這麼多行會你要做 你是不是跟我們說明一下說你的立場怎樣在未來跟美國展開談判的時候我們站在農業的立場是怎樣"},{"start":11514.316,"end":11532.214,"text":"我跟委員報告在整個行政院的談判小組其實已經認知到而且也充分的認知農業是一個相對於工業產品是一個非常特殊的產業那農業他肩負了糧食安全的一個非常重要的責任所以未來對於我們現在在後續的關稅談判裡面我們不會輕易的將"},{"start":11536.498,"end":11557.13,"text":"對國內會產生衝擊的這些產業做輕易的調整那這個部分我想我們會堅守這樣的一個原則因為所有的包括您剛才講的稻米包括雞肉包括豬肉的這個部分其實過往我們主要的進口的部分或者是他們進來的部分是黃小玉最多但是黃小玉是跟我們有互補的"},{"start":11558.311,"end":11575.06,"text":"那這個部分我想相對單純這部分我們生產比較少但是對我們有衝擊的對產業穩定發展有影響的我們一定堅守一個原則我們一定會保護農民的權利為原則去處理好 部長還有一個問題那水產品水產品我們過去有外傳到美國現在它10%"},{"start":11576.941,"end":11592.334,"text":"就是說雖然32%降為10%但是也是提高所以對水產品現在就有立即的衝擊對所以這部分是不是要對我們這些水產業者是不是要讓他們看看如何獲得因為他馬上他們面對去銷售到美國的稅率就提高了"},{"start":11592.934,"end":11610.045,"text":"對,我剛才,我昨天也在那個前鎮漁港我們的那個漁業署那邊跟我們的台灣釣的業者做談那其實現在台灣釣本身美國市場最大的美國市場是大陸那台灣大概佔7%,雖然說我們外銷是佔79%但是後續我們認為就是跟業者談其實這是一個機會,另外是一個機會啦"},{"start":11617.449,"end":11646.001,"text":"當中國的水產品不能過去的時候那台灣本身我們怎麼樣快把這一塊市場搶過來透過外銷的一個獎勵但是相對的我們的成本也提高啊所以我們要怎麼樣又進攻市場然後又在這個成本上又有利潤這個我想這個就要由我們農業部我們漁業署趕快來輔導我們會持續跟業者聽取業者的建議然後做調整的滾動第一個搶市場第二個讓他們成本是要讓他們"},{"start":11646.641,"end":11651.465,"text":"對 我們又有競爭力好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡召瑋 謝謝陳部長 謝謝好 下一位請賴瑞榮委員發言好 謝謝召瑋 請郭部長請部長"},{"start":11678.305,"end":11693.002,"text":"部長辛苦了其實我在看待因為賴總統其實在從川普選前講關稅到當選完到當選後我有觀察到賴總統其實密切在關注著川普的關稅政策"},{"start":11693.302,"end":11716.514,"text":"一言一行一直在盯著然後包括他在當選後包括在2月14號立即的也記者會來召開這個國安高層會議來演商甚至於在4月6號的時候立即來提出的五項五大方案我觀察到我們的國家元首賴總統其實密切的掌握住了整個川普的整個大方向所以他提出來的很快也因應到了川普的方向"},{"start":11717.134,"end":11734.979,"text":"我們也很快的讓川普感受到我們在面對這個問題所以部長認同我這樣的看法嗎是的所以我想賴總統整個清楚的掌握那我們也看到了也因為這樣而在4月9號的時候其實昨天就是今天早上清晨川普也很快的對"},{"start":11737.4,"end":11754.651,"text":"中國125以外其他的75個國家包括台灣全數都暫時90天的戰團那等於是我們的第一步至少啟動而且我們會在未來跟日本跟韓國跟台灣會是列為第一波溝通對象所以我想我們的團隊都已經做好準備了在那邊談了那"},{"start":11756.392,"end":11772.592,"text":"我要這樣講的其實也是說表示說政府在這件事情上面的方向是正確的我也希望能夠部長跟這個所有的也要讓社會各界更清楚知道政府其實是全面的掌握住了美國的政策的方向同時間我們在不管是"},{"start":11773.914,"end":11790.833,"text":"各項的這個溝通談判甚至在內部的部分我們也都全面在溝通跟掌握當中我覺得要讓國人更有信心支持政府也信賴政府我認為這個才會對整個後續的跟美國的談判更加有利部長同意這樣的看法嗎是的同意啦齁"},{"start":11791.955,"end":11810.437,"text":"從今天來看來其實今天股市上面看來效益上就整個呈現了這個比較早期的數字但是差不多這樣的數字幾乎是整個回漲回來了所以表示我們整體這樣也不只是台灣其他國家也都是這樣所以表示說我們這個因應的方向在走"},{"start":11810.737,"end":11827.243,"text":"包括賴總統也投書到了這個彭博社這個深化台美的經貿路線這個大概也是賴總統再次的定調我們的方向我們要走跟美國深化這個經貿關係的路線也就是說過去來經貿之間的"},{"start":11828.664,"end":11857.494,"text":"我們很多時候甚至WTO或者是CPTPP我們不見得走得進去但是因為這樣的機會反倒有機會我們跟美國好好的來談一談那同時間甚至於我們有機會重新的讓台灣能夠走入到整個這個全球的整個架構裡面去所以我覺得應該也讓各界更知道當這樣的時候它當然是有一些變數跟變局也是一個挑戰但是當我們用不同的角度去面對的時候過去台灣也歷經過兩次的很大的挑戰"},{"start":11858.314,"end":11877.567,"text":"那反倒台灣的韌性在這時候都展現出來反倒後面對台灣的整體經濟還是持續往上走所以這一次應該是台灣遇到第三次的一個重大的挑戰部長有沒有信心我們一樣能夠有台灣的韌性度過這一波危機讓台灣的經濟台灣的產業再一波的往上走"},{"start":11878.306,"end":11898.723,"text":"確實這樣子就是說現在我們看到這所有的競爭要件都回到70點那這個立足點當我們跟其他的競爭國擺在同一條競爭線上面的時候也就是說所有的人對美國的出口的這個稅率回到10%這樣的一個條件的時候台灣的競爭力是非常的強的"},{"start":11899.912,"end":11921.346,"text":"而且第二個我們跟美國在科技的商品或是其他的商品上面其實大部分都是互補的所以我們也因為這個樣子所以從今天下午開始我們院跟府都會去訪談各地的工業還有其他商業的這些團體這些相關的"},{"start":11924.168,"end":11945.772,"text":"這些人員那聽聽他們對這樣的一個改變是不是政府還有需要再加強在目前規劃沒有注意到的地方雖然我們都已經很努力了但是大部分我們還是要聽聽這個這些業者的這個聲音所以福根院從今天下午開始就啟動這樣的一個下鄉的這個機制也在這裡跟委員報告"},{"start":11950.253,"end":11978.055,"text":"也藉這個機會的時候同時我們在調整我們整體的體制然後當面對的川普面對美國這樣的一個重大政策那美國跟中國之間的這樣的一個處理方式的時候其實台灣反倒也是從這個機會中去調整我們的體制也面對全球的這樣的一個變局那同時間因為變化也相當的快啦因為我們談判過程也不斷的在談那談完回來之後哪些需要再給予更多的協助我們隨時都動態的在做調整嘛880億我認為其實只是一個底"},{"start":11979.716,"end":11999.531,"text":"底標啦但未來有更有需要我相信政府都會更加支持讓我們產業能夠度過這一波同時間再過做進一步的轉型讓我們的台灣的經濟韌性更加的強化我認為這個是這一波這個美國的調升關稅反倒是對台灣更是我們看到另外一個不同的層次的一個角度"},{"start":12001.553,"end":12015.913,"text":"過去這幾天國民黨很多酸言酸語 應該要採用親中反美的路線王宏威 徐宇甄 甚至於羅志強 甚至於趙少康都是用揶揄跟甚至於要求親中反美的路線那我們看到"},{"start":12016.974,"end":12035.828,"text":"美國跟中國之間現在在貿易的這個大戰當中如果我們採取這一條路線的話我們恐怕現在面對的是跟中國一樣的一個狀況這個被調升高度的關稅的問題部長怎麼看待我們現在走的這個路線跟現在講的親中反美路線到底哪一條路線才是一個正確的路線"},{"start":12036.528,"end":12044.37,"text":"當然我想這個不言可喻沒有人會願意從32升到125大家都選擇一個跟著大勢而走的路線我想我們也整個的團隊朝這方面來判斷我們認為說談判"},{"start":12058.51,"end":12084.845,"text":"不是跟這個對方國就是採取對立的狀態我想這個可能是比較沒有談判經驗的人的一個想法而且這也是跟全世界幾乎多數國家都是面對這樣的問題大家也都在面對採取用這個看來目前只有中國採取比較強硬的一個方式而中國是一個專制的一個國家他才硬的那更何況我們當然是走在民主更何況台灣跟美國有很多在"},{"start":12085.725,"end":12110.429,"text":"科技上各方面的互補更何況他也是一個民主的一個國家裡面他有很多的機制所以我覺得這個路線的選擇其實非常清楚的啦所以我覺得也還好這樣的親中反美的這樣說法很快的其實就消下來那從現在整個來看其實我們務實的穩健路線對台灣未來長遠是一個很重要的大家一起努力接下來看起來美國跟中國之間的這個貿易戰會升級那台灣怎麼樣在面對這個"},{"start":12113.83,"end":12124.395,"text":"中美貿易戰之間升級的這個之中找到一個我們更好的一個處理方式部長怎麼樣的看法是的我們當然會動態的去調整我們的所有的措施"},{"start":12126.353,"end":12148.056,"text":"動態調整因為看來這個會是一個長期的一個它不會是這麼短的而且這個中國跟美國之間的態度是怎麼樣子所以我想還是要請各部會都要審慎來因應來面對那台灣至少在目前為止是被認為是一個可信賴的夥伴我想這個對於台灣整體的國際形象也很重要"},{"start":12148.416,"end":12175.834,"text":"那接下來我問的是很多的未來如果中國被課這個高關稅之後有很多的商品有可能轉傾銷進來這個部分政府有沒有什麼樣的因應方案報告委員我想洗產地的這個部地這個部分我想我在這個這個地方再做一次報告首先我們會加強入貨的這個監測包括這個回銷台灣或者是轉到蘇美的部分第二個加強業者的宣傳告訴他這個是這個"},{"start":12179.2,"end":12191.132,"text":"會影響美國對我們的判斷第三個建立違規業者的名單第四個裁罰重演他一旦違規我們就裁罰重演第五個運用反取消的措施來防止"},{"start":12192.523,"end":12210.419,"text":"透過台灣去來稀產地這個是美國在這一次他對關稅談判的四大重點之一好一方面是美國的一方面對於我們國內的產業這一塊也要持續的支持的更注意不要造成我們的內部的一些影響好不好最後一點時間我請教一下陳部長好不好好謝謝部長"},{"start":12212.418,"end":12234.525,"text":"不知道 我知道昨天你有到前鎮漁港去啦因為昨天下午我在開另外一個會議沒辦法趕到現場但是我知道你有做了一些我們也希望未來在水產品這一塊能夠持續的給予輔導跟協助啦一方面它當然市場雖然但另外一方面也有可能開拓出更多的一些機會我也希望持續的加強不管是美國市場或其他市場的打入能夠讓我們優質的水產品能夠繼續走向國際"},{"start":12235.59,"end":12264.289,"text":"我想這個其實也是一個機會我想我們會趁這個機會把更多的這些支持方案去落實在我們的產業讓它有更高的競爭力效到其他的國家我也希望未來像不管是冷鏈或者相關的讓我們可以走入全世界的一些需要建置的一些系統我們希望持續的強化好不好讓我們的隨產品能夠更保存到價值更高附加價值然後送往全世界更好的一些產地賣到更好的價格這是我們的目標好不好就持續來推動好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":12266.39,"end":12277.292,"text":"好謝謝賴瑞榮委員那我們先宣告中午不休息延長開會到這個議程結束來下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢謝謝主席請經濟請農業部的陳部長來請陳部長委員好"},{"start":12294.96,"end":12311.572,"text":"部長在近年來兩岸的關係缺乏了互信的基礎所以也影響到我們雙邊的經貿的關係大陸也多次禁止我們台灣農漁產品的出口所以我們政府也採取了"},{"start":12312.112,"end":12336.582,"text":"開拓多元外銷的市場像美國日本跟東南亞國家所以是希望能夠降低大陸的依賴所以美國在2022年也正式的成為我國最大的農產品的出口國但是4月2號你知道了川普宣布32%的這個對等關稅所以對我們農業產品是有非常大的影響那我們"},{"start":12338.783,"end":12351.317,"text":"看到川普也在昨天有宣布暫停32%先降為到10%除了中國以外的國家在有90天的時間那90天的時間我們農業部這邊的話是不是趕快有什麼積極的措施要來跟川普這邊有進一步的談判呢"},{"start":12360.467,"end":12380.959,"text":"我想跟委員說明分兩個面向就是說雖然說現在目前有90天的緩衝期就是32%降到基礎供應的10%但是我們還是會持續跟產業做一個有效的溝通就是有不同的情境之下我們唯一的目標就是希望讓我們的產品持續能夠銷到美國去美國是一個非常重要的市場"},{"start":12381.539,"end":12401.13,"text":"不能因為關稅而放棄這是一個重要的但是高關稅我們農民的話整個我們整個績效都會下降有一部分我們還會去轉移到其他的高端市場但是我要跟委員報告從關稅的競爭角度來講現在中國的關稅如果還是維持這樣子或應該會比台灣高的時候其實像"},{"start":12402.09,"end":12424.13,"text":"吳國瑜美國的市場中國佔的百分之將近70所以我們才佔百分之七而已所以在這個前提之下其實反而是一個我們的機會能夠去在那邊具有更大的潛力只要市場不萎縮所以這個部分我想我們用很多的所以關稅是最重要的市場才不會萎縮對就是關稅的"},{"start":12426.951,"end":12439.005,"text":"競賽的過程中中國現在目前是比較屬於劣勢的部分那這個機會我們如果加速我們的佈局在美國的佈局的話是能夠有效的爭取更多的市場當然我們也要把握這90天這個時間趕快做好準備重啟這個關稅的這個談判"},{"start":12444.352,"end":12473.217,"text":"那我剛有特別提到就是我們要開拓多元的市場那目前這種情況之下的話我們也要開拓那現在我們有準備往哪些國家來開拓嗎我想我們會根據目前的這些這些農漁產品本身的目標市場國去加大他的力量我舉個例子鱸魚其實我們鱸魚是以澳洲為最主要的一個市場那反而是美國相對的他的比例是比較低的大概只有1%而已那這種情況之下我們"},{"start":12473.877,"end":12500.67,"text":"哪些國家如魚像如魚的話是澳洲澳洲是最大的所以我們會加強澳洲的一個行銷讓更高端的所以現在這個澳洲那本身是要提醒啦因為如果說美國行不通之後還有歐盟的部分也有對美國如果行不通之後的話因為東南亞國家的農業產品跟我們同質性都很類似嘛同質性很高所以我們必須要開拓其他的多元一點市場好不好"},{"start":12501.69,"end":12509.639,"text":"了解好那接下來就是想請教的那因為美國在那邊談判的話如果說我們部長這邊有做好準備應該知道美國有宣示一些政策那尤其是對於我們有一些食安問題部長應該就要了解了譬如我們的美牛美豬"},{"start":12520.952,"end":12535.28,"text":"一些特殊高危險的這些部位的美食還有一些基改的食品的話他這次會不會在談判內容裡面我們要以國人的食安為最重要這是我們的底線不能超過這底線是不是"},{"start":12535.76,"end":12553.894,"text":"我想以農業部主責的相關的這些農產的一些關稅的談判那其實重點是在這些農產品有哪些農產品在過去我們是有一些比較高一點關稅的一個保護那這個部分會不會往下降其實大家關心的是這個就產業來講"},{"start":12555.515,"end":12574.326,"text":"但是農業是一個非常特殊的產業它具有糧食安全的一個任務在那邊所以該標示的要標示不能把這個拿來做談判的籌碼尤其是標示產地的問題或者是說像牛的內臟牛的脊椎還有豬的腎臟還有萊克多巴胺的成分跟標準都要符合"},{"start":12575.492,"end":12589.502,"text":"才能夠進來 不能因為為了把跟關稅降低而作為談判的籌碼不過你應該在講這個部分是衛務部主責一定要再堅持好不好 衛務部主責但是我們農業部本身是針對產業面我們會去做一個有效的支撐"},{"start":12590.99,"end":12606.574,"text":"所以我們在討論另外一個問題就是美國也有進口我們台灣的農產品那你有沒有去盤點說美國進口了哪些農產品它的關稅我們可以說稍微把它調降來釋出善意有利於你們的談判呢"},{"start":12607.234,"end":12633.266,"text":"我想其實我們對美國現在目前進來的最主要是飼料用的黃小玉黃小玉的部分現在關稅都是零了現在是關稅是零他們進來就是零了就是零了所以我想關稅的談判其實關稅的談判是一個手段但是最終的目的是要兩國的貿易都能夠雙贏而且有互補的效益我們會從這個角度來處理是好謝謝謝謝部長我現在先請經濟部的我們郭部長"},{"start":12643.455,"end":12660.943,"text":"部長 經過聽外媒的報導白宮在施壓底下台積電已經與美國英特爾公司達成協議未來要合資成立公司那台積電也會成為晶片生產上技術換取20%的股份 是不是"},{"start":12664.807,"end":12686.242,"text":"報告委員 這個我們對這個傳言因為不是經過政府的這個投審會所以我現在投審會有沒有審這個不清楚這一個傳言不清楚那我也不評論這個傳言我知道部長就是說這個是假設性的議題 不予回答但是我們還是要再討論這個問題因為居然外面都已經報導了"},{"start":12689.884,"end":12711.356,"text":"那尤其是台積電跟英特爾這個作為是競爭的對象部長應該了解他們就是競爭的對象如果他們雙方合資之後會出現兩種狀況第一種狀況就是英特爾公司會全面的退出晶圓代工的專注在IC的設計上第二種狀況的話就會是台積電跟英特爾公司共同經營這個晶圓代工的這個業務"},{"start":12714.059,"end":12726.888,"text":"如果在第一種狀況我們認為台積電還是比較有利的那如果第二種狀況就不行了那部長有什麼看法我們不評論這樣的傳言就是假設性的議題你不評論了但是我們希望部長"},{"start":12728.137,"end":12756.937,"text":"在這種合作關係雖然說沒有被證實但是我們就要避免這個第二種情形的發生第二種情形發生的話就會影響到台積電跟英特爾公司他們合作但我們希望投審會未來對這個審查的情況的話要更加的嚴審不要讓這個關鍵技術外流好不好如果有委員所指教的這樣的情形我們會關鍵技術還要非常重視的不能外流好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":12760.697,"end":12784.144,"text":"好 謝謝呂玉玲委員 那下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關上官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請農業部陳部長 也請經濟部的郭部長好 請兩位部長"},{"start":12792.04,"end":12810.147,"text":"兩位部長好我今天的題目呢就是零關稅同盟強化台美貿易880億因應進口衝擊要顧農業我先請教一下郭部長如果上個星期美國政府川普的宣布是個晴天霹靂你覺得早上看到他說延緩90天的感覺心情怎麼樣"},{"start":12811.599,"end":12840.661,"text":"報告委員這也都在我們的預估之內都在預估之內難怪這幾天你都氣定神閒好這裡面呢說到因為後面我要問一下陳部長因為昨天我已經跟郭部長請教過了那目前呢川普是在暫停90天只抽10%好好了那有什麼連帶的改變呢來我們看一下下一頁那麼請教陳部長川普開出各國不對等的關稅清單目的是什麼譬如台灣莫名其妙是32%結果呢你覺得後來的結果從結果來看你覺得他的目的是什麼"},{"start":12841.38,"end":12858.119,"text":"我覺得他是一個談判 要比你上談判桌而且他很清楚的要創造一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟他對中國高關稅 中委都要報復結果兩個越來越高越來越高然後其他的國家看看苗頭不對都說好了我們對等嘛因為只有對等"},{"start":12859.336,"end":12884.263,"text":"你對美國零 那美國也會對你零嘛所以大家都把對美的關稅降到零了結果這產生什麼問題呢 產生什麼情況呢 往下看就是說原來中國貨 效往美國的中國貨被誰取代被這些跟美國互為零關稅的同盟所取代 是不是這樣子中國貨出場啦 因為它太貴啦但是相對台灣去的啦 以色列去的變便宜了嘛 所以就改買"},{"start":12885.524,"end":12907.703,"text":"這些其他的同盟國的貨但是美國貨也賣不到中國去嘛 那換賣到哪裡去賣到台灣 賣到這些同盟國嘛 部長你同意嗎報告委員 我們針對你昨天的這些指導啊我們回去有做一些模擬啦 謝謝你的這個先見之明所以我們大概才會推估一些這個狀況"},{"start":12909.383,"end":12926.026,"text":"那對這個趨勢大概是朝您所指導的這個方向我想會這樣朝這個方向來發展謝謝郭部長的肯定那我也請教陳部長如果台灣降低對美關稅甚至到達零那能夠降低台美的貿易逆差嗎"},{"start":12927.977,"end":12951.952,"text":"我想某個程度現在不確定性還蠻高的最主要是從美國進到台灣的這些這些主要的農產品是以黃小玉為主那黃小玉這些飼料的這個部分最主要是跟我們產業的規模是有關係的所以說跟關稅的關聯性有一點但是還是看你的未納量好我們來看一下美國進口台灣對不起往上往上往上"},{"start":12955.034,"end":12967.302,"text":"美國進口美國的商品因為零關稅會什麼進口增加像黃小玉對不對當然有些是不受影響因為他的因素是非關稅因素不是關稅因素像汽車昨天我問過郭部長了嘛"},{"start":12968.308,"end":12988.728,"text":"那你日本車跟美國車都零關稅你要買什麼當然買日本車啦美國的火雞肉向來人家台灣人民就不喜歡吃嘛但是我們必須政策性的去擴大採購譬如說買軍備買天然氣是不是這樣子那請教陳部長你認為目前880的方案是為了因應出口商品因為美國的高關稅而受到衝擊嗎"},{"start":12990.117,"end":13013.959,"text":"原來的880億以農業部門來講是181億對然後我們181億我先問你是為了因應出口嘛對不對是因應出口受阻嘛所以博部長是不是也同意原來的880億也是為了因應出口受阻嗎這是我們第一步先能夠是個舒緩國內這些出口廠商那你覺得現在當川普政府說90天之後有沒有出口受阻的這個憂慮了"},{"start":13015.64,"end":13036.11,"text":"沒有沒有 我們現在因為只有在我們必須要快速在90天裡面看到最後的決定是甚麼好 那個最後的決定是台灣跟美國都互相零關稅你覺得工業的這700億要協助出口受阻的還有需要用到嗎你這邊都評估的是外交的啊申請資格都是要出口業啊農業部門的呢這就外交美國的產品啊 是不是這樣"},{"start":13036.77,"end":13065.195,"text":"報告委員 我想我們會評估各種不同的狀況這個是只是其中的一個狀況但是它可能發生的會根據全球的我相信美國不是只有談台美之間的狀況是的 我們要考慮到全球如果實際發生了是台灣對美國出口不受影響是台灣變成零關稅美國會進口很多我們受到影響那這個時候這881票調整使用的方向跟對象"},{"start":13067.179,"end":13082.204,"text":"好來陳部長就是你了來我們先來看很快的結我跟委員報告現在目前681大概是以出國轉向但是如果是農業但是農業進口的部分我們會看最後的一個結果假如是美國進口台灣是零關稅的話呢我們農業部不可能"},{"start":13087.267,"end":13098.303,"text":"黃小玉本來就零關稅了對這不受影響嗎但是那個雞肉牛肉的部分因為國內的比重非常低但是雞肉我們有一定的比重所以像我們國內有產業的話我們關稅不會輕易讓步所以"},{"start":13102.808,"end":13123.196,"text":"等一等 你說關稅不會輕易讓步如果台灣對美國不零關稅讓他的肌肉進來我們經濟部就沒有辦法零關稅去美國我跟委員報告 所有的關稅在談判的過程中不是用國家的零關稅全部一致零關稅他會現在回到不同的產業別我了解 部長 你的想法跟川普的不一樣"},{"start":13124.016,"end":13138.744,"text":"他就是簡單我就雖然你們站到台灣跟我美國站在一起零關稅自由貿易同盟盡量不要有那些不是關稅造成的障礙所以零關稅會造成台灣肌肉的影響你同不同意"},{"start":13139.994,"end":13164.565,"text":"如果未來被迫接受我們互相付為零關稅不過我想在我們現在目前談判的過程中我們還會堅持因為農業有它的特殊性我了解因為特殊性我們來看一下在WTO的時候往下看本來在WTO我們台灣稻米年長115萬噸WTO給我們的進口費容許在14萬噸裡面是零關稅但是超出的部分還是要課稅對不對是縱使是這樣子台灣的稻米的成本大概是四五十萬一公斤"},{"start":13165.885,"end":13181.489,"text":"但是如果說我們今天是零關稅,軍價可能是29,所以你要因應衝擊啦,因為時間快到了,我就請你衝擊,來往下看,郭部長換你了。這個裕隆汽車前兩天發出一個聲明,他說如果台灣對美國是零關稅,他的汽車進來零關稅的話,他們覺得會很難撐下去,你認同這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":13187.136,"end":13201.105,"text":"這個在現象上面可能會發生這樣子不過我們經濟部的角度來講我們還是因為我們有10萬多人的從業人員在所以我們會讓他轉型調整轉型調整譬如說台灣的電子零組件這麼強讓他轉型生產電動車這也是一個項目很好"},{"start":13207.208,"end":13232.141,"text":"陳部長這就是我希望農業部要及早因應的我是揣在蛋其實如果是台灣出口受阻其實相對農業線受到的影響相對低但是如果台灣現在是進口是開放那麼我們農業線受到的影響是大的但是如果出口沒有問題進口有問題我們郭部長只要擔心台灣的汽車裝配業等一些少數的產業但是如果農業部門我們就受到很大影響所以結論"},{"start":13233.479,"end":13254.796,"text":"是不是請農業部就我國 若我國對美的關稅降至零如果協助我國的農漁畜牧業因應衝擊提出農業報告 可以嗎可以 我們會做這樣的一個分析那多久可以給本席一個月好 謝謝 謝謝兩位部長 謝謝好 謝謝宗教兵委員那下一位請羅美玲委員發言沒關係 好"},{"start":13264.506,"end":13281.119,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請經濟部 郭部長那個部長可能要趕到桃園 所以接下來是部長要趕到桃園 次長嗎因為早上有先同意部長那就有請代次長好 請次長代替"},{"start":13289.391,"end":13313.396,"text":"市長好 市長今天台灣時間的凌晨美國對中國呢 祭出了125%的這個出口關稅這也意味著未來中國洗產地的這行為會更加的嚴重那是不是也意味著台灣成為中國洗產地的這個跳板的狀況呢會更加的嚴重 那雖然是說我們立法院在2019年的時候已經"},{"start":13314.876,"end":13328.707,"text":"三讀通過了這個貿易法的修正案那如果說廠商標示不實產地使用不實的貿易貿易證明文件等違法行為我們的罰款是由新台幣30萬大幅提升到300萬可是我們所看到的就是說其實這個貿易法修正案通過之後呢洗產地的這個狀況其實呢雖然稍稍改善可是還是發生了因為我們從報章的這個"},{"start":13341.738,"end":13364.795,"text":"媒體有發現就是說不管是漁業也好或者是說這個中國的監視器廠商的利用台灣做跳板等等這些都發生那再來未來可能會更加的嚴重尤其是這個125%的出口關稅現在已經正式實施了我想請問當然我有看到這個國貿署他有提供資料就是說"},{"start":13366.356,"end":13394.855,"text":"雖然說實施之後有稍稍減少稍微減少可是我是擔心的就是說這個出口關稅這個政策提高之後那台灣要如何因應我們香港的法律會不會想要來做加嚴這個部分我們有考慮過嘛因為目前剛剛我聽到郭部長所講的都是目前我們的這個目前所實施的這個政策那未來呢未來我們香港法律會不會來做加嚴"},{"start":13395.786,"end":13411.202,"text":"第一個非常感謝立法院的支持我們貿易法進行修正那這個財法如剛剛委員所說的我們會重演來做相關的查緝工作最嚴重的話還可以取消他的登記證就是現在法令就會這樣現在法令就是這麼做了嗎未來呢"},{"start":13413.204,"end":13428.529,"text":"未來的部分的話我們會通常來做檢討目前的相關法令我們要如何去再做加嚴修正法規需要與時俱進去做檢討的這個必要的話未來會做滾動式的修正就對了現階段我們在這個時間點最重要要做的事情就是包括"},{"start":13429.589,"end":13450.248,"text":"這些產品的監視包括他從中國進來臺灣甚至臺灣輸美的部分這個我們貿易署跟財政部都有對接資料來去進行監測除此之外我們對於全國的所謂的進出口廠商或是生產廠商去進行宣導第三個部分我們希望"},{"start":13451.149,"end":13468.975,"text":"把我們過去所查緝出來的所謂的違規的這個名單把它列出來它是一個高風險的這個名單那我們從這幾個方面希望說來減少說因為請消或是違規轉運也就是委員所說的洗產地的問題"},{"start":13470.543,"end":13493.397,"text":"OK 這部分的話我們應該還是會來做監控啦 因為其實我們比較擔心是未來會有更多這種稀產地的這個事情會發生 OK好 那這個美國呢他這個高額關稅提出來之後 其實我們也看到就是說行政單位也好 或是賴總統也好 其實在第一時間呢就已經定調了 我們就是"},{"start":13493.857,"end":13510.408,"text":"不報復然後我們就需要來做談判以現在來看的話尤其是今天的一個大轉彎我們覺得我們的這個方向其實是正確的那再來我想請教的就是說現在我們有提出了881的這個支援方案嘛那當然也有很多人就說881到底夠不夠"},{"start":13514.133,"end":13541.235,"text":"到底夠不夠 未來我們有會想要考慮來增加嗎可是還有一點就是說我們有看到就是副院長鄭麗君副院長有提到說其實這個880億的支援方案其實是屬於階段性的這個措施那我們也都知道說這個部分可能也跟美國在談判的時候可能要特別提出來因為像中美貿易戰的話美國針對的其實就是中國長期的惡意補貼這部分他認為這是不公平的一個"},{"start":13542.175,"end":13564.556,"text":"一個行為所以他針對這一點這所謂的補貼的這個方案其實他有很多的這個意見那當然台灣的881的支援方案其實它是階段性的這個這個措施這個部分的話我們在談判的時候是會不會就是說特別跟美方來強調這個部分其實是階段性的措施跟中國的這個長期惡意補貼方案是不一樣的我們會特別強調這一點嗎"},{"start":13566.158,"end":13587.132,"text":"第一個我們的政府他已經有詳細的規劃包括談判的小組他應該有一個他就有一個週盤的沙盤推演這是第一個第二個我們今天剛剛委員所提到了880億我剛剛也是在行政院會去報告參與這個事情那基本上左院長說"},{"start":13588.473,"end":13605.985,"text":"九大面向二十項措施基本上是不會改變的而政府可以馬上做的就要先行來做只要協助廠商不管是在經費不管是在行政支持金融支持全力以赴所以這個部分的話如果是說其實881可能就是現階段是這樣我們會是未來"},{"start":13609.887,"end":13628.654,"text":"未來我們看這個局面的轉變也許我們也會加碼是這樣子的意思嗎我們會等待檢討 也有可能只要可以協助了 我們都盡量盡量好 謝謝 因為時間的關係我想行政單位這段時間真的是辛苦了那我們也希望說這個危機很可能也就是台灣的轉機 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":13632.316,"end":13640.101,"text":"好謝謝羅美玲委員那下一位請黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在請李坤成委員發言謝謝主席那我們是請這個能力部陳部長來請陳部長"},{"start":13662.069,"end":13684.576,"text":"這個美國的關稅對台灣的關稅本來是32%今天早上一早接到消息變成10%那部長是哪時候知道這個訊息的我大概六點的時候我知道它是凌晨發布的但是我在凌晨之前就先睡了我是早上醒來的時候知道那看到這個新聞你感受心情怎麼樣"},{"start":13686.553,"end":13698.883,"text":"我第一個時間覺得說我們有更多的時間爭取了一些更多的時間能夠在產業上面來做有效的溝通然後去針對現在目前的政策做滾動的一個檢討的機會"},{"start":13701.966,"end":13728.391,"text":"那現在這個關稅這部分的話這個美國他是有點名有一些這個非關稅的一些障礙那其實有一些是跟農業部是有相關的那之前有點名就是說那包含這個稻米、基改等作物包含這個美豬美牛等等那請問一下在接下來這個談判的這個90天還有一個緩衝期那農業部這方面要怎麼樣做因應我想"},{"start":13729.051,"end":13749.011,"text":"我們一定會配合整個談判小組的一個談判策略不過從農業部的立場而且談判小組也充分的已經體認認知到其實農業的產業跟其他的工業產業它有它的特殊性最主要是它具有肩負糧食安全的一個非常重要的一個責任所以在這個前提之下我們"},{"start":13749.611,"end":13768.471,"text":"在做後續的跟美方做溝通跟談判的過程中一定會維持我們產業穩定的發展還有農民的權益為前提所以針對現在目前已經設定比較高的那個關稅的情況之下我們會盡量的去維持但是雙方之間如果是一個互補的"},{"start":13769.712,"end":13784.44,"text":"這些產品的話我們可以考慮做某種程度的調整但是調整也不是一次到位而是像有一些階段性的我們會朝這個方向去努力因為我們的關稅就農業產品來講的確是比較高所以說我是比較擔心說在談判的過程當中會不會影響到我們農民的權益"},{"start":13793.824,"end":13809.136,"text":"對 所以我想我們會就是針對台灣產業已經有一個發展的我們會盡量會守護著這樣的一個產業的一個強調那美國進來的現在目前最大宗的還是黃曉玉他們所在乎的那黃曉玉本身的關稅就是零了"},{"start":13809.776,"end":13834.676,"text":"他關稅就是零了所以基本上沒有什麼影響他可能影響的就是說我們現在有的包括媒體所講的那個豬跟雞的部分那這個部分其實我們產業一定有一個產業鏈在那邊的那我想我們一定會守護我們的產業維持我們產業永續發展為前提去跟美方去談有哪一些是農業部認為說在談判過程當中不能夠退讓的"},{"start":13835.74,"end":13855.545,"text":"我想不能夠推斷我剛才所提到的就是說我們目前對產業可能衝擊性比較高的這些產業那這個產業對糧食安全有影響的我們盡量會跟美方去做一個說明每一個國家它的農產品它都有不同的保護性的一個措施在那邊"},{"start":13856.725,"end":13871.385,"text":"對 我想整個關稅我們會配合談判小組去談那至於說細節的部分我想我現在變在這邊去說明哪一些是可以處理 哪一些是不可以處理的OK 好 謝謝部長接下來我們請經濟部的次長好 請次長"},{"start":13879.773,"end":13907.959,"text":"委員好 市長請教一下那雖然像台灣現在關稅是90天裡面是降成10%嘛那中國他是增加他是這個104現在變成125啦那當然我們還有台商在中國雖然已經這個第一次川普執政的時候已經陸陸續續的回到台灣是回到東南亞了那這樣子對於台商的影響你們有評估到嗎因為接下來川普對於中國的這個壓力應該會越來越大"},{"start":13909.485,"end":13924.204,"text":"我們台灣的廠商在全球布局它裡面這幾年我們觀察到一個狀況就是2020年的時候當時常住在中國的台灣人大概有100萬人但是這個數量在減少"},{"start":13926.264,"end":13947.881,"text":"有一些是回台灣投資有一些是到其他的地方去佈局所以我們積極的推動三大投資方案我們也統計到上個月月底為止台商回台投資的部分已經超過1.3兆那我們持續的在做這個部分希望說看看可不可以擴大對台商的這個協助"},{"start":13949.002,"end":13960.735,"text":"因為現在還是有財商留在那裡嘛那因為現在美國對中國的課稅是高達125%有可能會再增加如果這個中國還在這個奉陪到底的話那我是說問台商的影響那我們應該怎麼做勒"},{"start":13962.981,"end":13989.528,"text":"我們第一個持續的透過我們跟產業界的座談或是工協會的座談收集到他們的意見然後把這個相關的意見給這個海基會透過他做必要的一個協助那除此之外的話持續關懷台商因為台商都他都有一些台商的協會的這個部分這個部分也是我們可以收集資料的一個最重要的一個來源"},{"start":13990.916,"end":14017.348,"text":"我的意思是說在川普在2016第一次執政的時候因為他對中國他把他視成是一個敵對的國家經濟上面或是國防上面對他有影響所以那一次也間接造成這個我們產業回到我們台灣然後這一個也那我們也希望說有那個南向政策嘛那我現在的意思是說那川普現在在執政了那一樣施加這麼大的壓力給中國那是不是有可能再一次促成這個在中國的這些台商再回來台灣或是說這個"},{"start":14019.751,"end":14047.41,"text":"因為東南亞現在這個課的關稅也很高那是不是有這個計畫讓台商再回流不是只有說去關懷他們或是說問他們有什麼樣的問題或是說類似這種產業結構再變動的一個比較大的一個架構你們有沒有去想到這個當然有我剛剛講三大投資方案其中台商回流的部分透過我們跟院裡面院裡面已經有合訂延長這個計畫那我們希望擴大辦理"},{"start":14049.971,"end":14067.14,"text":"我們審視過去台商回台包括台灣的這個產業的這個轉型的這個過程裡面我們發現說即便是相當傳統的產業他可以因為科技的運用包括數位的轉型讓他的產品的質量素質提高"},{"start":14067.7,"end":14086.02,"text":"所以在這一次我們所提到的880億元的這個規劃裡面有一個研發轉型的部分那研發轉型的部分當然我們對中小企業我們會來與協助除了中小企業之外產業聯盟也可以啊以大代小也都可以這個都是在我們的規劃方案裡面"},{"start":14087.101,"end":14101.429,"text":"因為我初看那個計畫啦我想說那個是對於台灣的產業好像是這個協助的地方比較多好像比較少是說是在中國的台商或是其他地方的台商回來的這方面的協助啦"},{"start":14101.969,"end":14130.284,"text":"當然我們希望說他先回來台灣投資我們希望我們更有台灣嘛所以我們除了台商回台投資我們優化我們的投資的環境這是政府應該去做的一個事情好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝李坤城委員那我們下一位請伍麗華委員伍麗華委員伍麗華委員不在請徐宇珍委員發言"},{"start":14140.528,"end":14141.654,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請農業部陳部長有請部長"},{"start":14146.94,"end":14167.615,"text":"部長好部長這一天很辛苦每天可能都像洗三溫暖一樣今天一覺醒來關稅又降到10%了而且還有90天的緩衝期但是美國對於中國大陸是真的要課這125%的一個關稅部長可以先看一下這個表格就是我所做的就主要受影響品項跟競爭對手國"},{"start":14170.077,"end":14183.43,"text":"就是蝴蝶蘭跟冷凍無果魚就是所謂的台灣貂其實是我們輸美最多那但是同時我們的主要競爭者也是中國大陸那現在他們要課徵125%的關稅我們是10%所以請問一下針對現在這樣一個新的契機那農業部隊這樣子我們這些業者有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":14191.357,"end":14215.014,"text":"我想特別是我們現在如果能夠有一個緩衝期有機會再跟業者進一步的討論那未來的關稅如果不會到32如果更低的時候那相對於中國我們就有更高的機會那我們會針對現在目前毛豆中國的佔比最高對美國來講然後吳國瑜也是"},{"start":14215.754,"end":14234.002,"text":"那這些產品其實就是我們的一個機會那蝴蝶蛋部分雖然說是荷蘭但是荷蘭的生產模式跟我們不一樣那相對的我們在擴大海外的那個蝴蝶蛋廠的一個投資做接力生產那這個東西都在我們的促進的那個支持方案裡面會去協助我們的業者"},{"start":14235.706,"end":14263.735,"text":"現在針對這個部分表示說我們對於每出口的增加應該不會影響太大但是這可能是不是也相對的就對於我們國內的消費市場的衝擊大概會有多大不過這個以現在關稅10%因為我們過去美國大概平均是對農產品是5%所以相對它也是有提高了但是這個提高在業者的角度來講還是可以做一些接受而且我們的支持的方案不會說"},{"start":14264.855,"end":14290.007,"text":"三十二才處理 十就不處理 我們還是會有一些因為剛剛部長提出了一些建議的方案嘛可是因為農產品跟漁產品跟其他產品最大的不同就是他沒有辦法說不種就不種 說不養就不養所以他必須要有一個這個養殖期所以在面對川普政府他這樣反覆無常的一個政策之下就是農業部有沒有用什麼樣的方案來去提醒我們的這些農漁民"},{"start":14291.067,"end":14318.485,"text":"我想最重要像特別我舉個例子特別昨天在吳國瑜的這些座談裡面一個非常重要的就是我們一定要持續的將產品拉出去前端的放養才會繼續走不然你如果說因為觀望訂單停了以後後面的放養就可能會觀望會造成就算以後恢復了以後你前端沒有餘的所以我們會去強化所謂的國外的這些獎勵也好或是行銷包括其他的高端市場的行銷這個部分我們會積極去做"},{"start":14320.066,"end":14336.083,"text":"那像台湾雕的业者很担心这个中国大陆或巴西洗产地这样的一个问题那农业部有什么因应的选择我想洗产地当然我们会加强茶气但是有一个比较特殊的就是我们的台湾雕跟中国的台湾雕是不同品系的所以我们在技术上也可以做区分"},{"start":14336.764,"end":14352.305,"text":"所以後續我們在整個的一個產業的流程裡面我們會用溯源的方式包括前端場域的放氧量的申報跟他要去出口的時候去做相關的溯源那這樣的話就避免他透過國內的業者去做洗產地"},{"start":14353.146,"end":14374.911,"text":"所以針對這個部分的話我想這個農漁民都是說實在相對弱勢所以面對這樣的一個衝擊很需要農業部還有我們全民做他們的後盾我們再看一下就是根據2024年的統計的數據來看我們的農產品的逆差大概是29.9億美元那目前我們看到一下台灣最大的是出口中的農產品是無國魚"},{"start":14376.491,"end":14396.217,"text":"那最大的這個漁產品是吳國瑜農產品是蝴蝶蘭那因為蝴蝶蘭對美國出口的產值大概18.3億台幣美國也佔出口市場達四成是我們最大的買主那在美國宣布這個關稅政策暫緩之前很多業者就反映就蘇美的訂單可能出現暫停"},{"start":14397.177,"end":14417.022,"text":"或者取消的一個狀況現在雖然是暫緩但是面對這樣子反覆無常的一個策略那對於我們這些胡德蘭業者農業部有什麼因應的方式特別在昨天早上也跟胡德蘭業者座談了那現在除了觀望為主那已經有交貨的有一些是延遲付款的部分"},{"start":14417.983,"end":14433.264,"text":"那延遲付款他們對他們資金的周轉是有壓力的所以我們的金融支持會持續下去去讓他們在短期之內的金融的一個減輕他的壓力但是非常重要的就是後端本身的這些獎勵他們是希望說"},{"start":14434.466,"end":14461.843,"text":"以現在目前的當初32的關稅的時候部分的關稅是由進口商去吸收那一部分是由出口商來吸收那出口商吸收再加上我們的獎勵對他們的衝擊就會小這個訂單就會繼續拉的出去最後一個問題就是想請教一下就是針對美國希望我們對美豬跟美牛不要標示原產地跟萊克多巴胺的這個政策請問一下在談判的過程中農業部會讓步嗎"},{"start":14463.403,"end":14489.298,"text":"我想這個有關於標示跟相關的檢驗的部分是衛務部主責但是以農業部來講我們還是會去支持我們我們自己的產業的一個發展那以過往的這些數據來看以豬肉來講我們的自給率大概是88到90那每一年進口大概是10萬噸左右那會有消長的部分所以我想我們還是以支持我們國內的產業為最主要的談判的一個前提"},{"start":14490.279,"end":14491.462,"text":"希望農業部針對我國食安的問題這個部分絕對不能讓步謝謝部長"},{"start":14497.712,"end":14523.283,"text":"謝謝徐宇珍委員那下一位請黃建豪黃建豪黃建豪委員不在請蔓玉珍蔓玉珍蔓玉珍委員不在請羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在請王宏威王宏威王宏威委員委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請馬文君馬文君馬文君委員不在好下一位請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":14534.827,"end":14535.048,"text":"麻煩請農業部長謝謝來請陳部長"},{"start":14544.28,"end":14568.072,"text":"座長 針對川普的關稅政策你們今天盤點出來我們輸出到美國的幾項產品蝴蝶、蘭茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀等等但是其實我看到非常多的業者他們反映其實不只是這幾項可能會受到影響譬如說雞腿因為美國的雞腿美國人比較不吃雞腿所以他們本來進來台灣這邊是比較便宜"},{"start":14571.973,"end":14591.432,"text":"因為有關稅關係所以會比較貴啦但是如果說現在政府要用零關稅去談讓美國的農產品都零關稅進來其實對於本來台灣的一些其他的產品也會受到影響所以你們現在相關的因應之道是什麼我跟委員報告你剛才所提的分兩件事情就是我剛才"},{"start":14592.173,"end":14618.015,"text":"我們是第一個部分是因為美國的關稅提高影響到我們的出口那出口的部分大概有六個品項是主要影響的品項但是所有的輸到美國的產品都有不同程度的影響只是比較多的那另外你剛才講到肌肉的部分是美國輸到台灣的部分那現在輸到台灣的部分我們有一些關稅的一個保護這我都知道我沒有產生很多事件就是因為現在政府要零關稅去談嘛"},{"start":14619.86,"end":14634.586,"text":"那其實很多專家學者是說零關稅對美國沒有什麼吸引力啦因為我們的法定關稅本來就不高啦大概2%左右啦但是如果說到時候美國因為我們進口美國的農產品比較多嘛我們輸出過去比較少嘛所以他如果"},{"start":14635.046,"end":14662.482,"text":"特別就是說那好那我們農產品來零關稅其實對我們在地本土的農業會有影響嗎我現在是問的說這一塊你們對對對我想關稅的談判一個部分是一致性的就是國家稅就是不管任何產品都是一致的稅率還有另外一個方式是會根據不同的品項但是就農業的產品來講它有它的特殊性在很多國家都是一樣的它不會全部都是零關稅它會有一些"},{"start":14663.602,"end":14682.653,"text":"當你的當地的產業是需要去支持的時候他就不會是零關稅本來就是這樣啊可是問題是現在政府因為現在川普的他的氣勢比較高嘛他現在說各國領導人等著要去拍他馬屁啊然後要跟他做交易啊所以他如果現在政府如果說好沒關係我就每項零關稅等於是犧牲我們的農業去談嘛"},{"start":14683.914,"end":14710.655,"text":"所以我現在聽部長的意思是說農業有其特殊性所以你不會希望農業產品零關稅是不是我想我們的談判小組已經知道了你講的跟賴總統講的就大家一般大眾理解就不一樣沒有賴總統講的是從零關稅開始談起但是相對的整個談判是所有的產品但是農業我想談判小組已經也體認到也確認就是說農業有它的特殊性不會每一項所以每一個農業都不會用零關"},{"start":14711.635,"end":14730.482,"text":"農業不會用零關稅跟他談他講的零關稅是其他的產業農業的部分重要的這些產品我們一定堅持不能用零關稅那就不是零關稅開始談起他講話就不精準他應該要講說農產品之外我們用零關稅跟他談因為他這樣講我們大家一定都會誤會了他講的是我們台灣好比自己整體的貿易整體的貿易的處理謝謝你的說明第二個"},{"start":14737.944,"end":14754.445,"text":"因為說實在美國他們除了關稅你用零關稅跟他談之後他更在意的是非關稅的貿易障礙嘛其中好幾項都跟食安有關啊比如說基因食品啊或者簡易啊等等啊或者是一些進口的配額那"},{"start":14755.993,"end":14771.33,"text":"部長你會不會針對這些比較相關的食安像之前其實台灣對於比如萊豬的進口啊都其實國內的人都其實蠻抗拒的那如果美國現在藉機要求說你只要你的食安標準太高的話這是一種貿易障礙那農業部能夠堅持嗎"},{"start":14772.651,"end":14781.857,"text":"不過我想整個的相關的食品的安全是會務部主責但是我們一定會配合整體的談判的一個策略那以農業部來講以農業部的角度啦以農業部來講我們是針對相關的措施對產業的影響那包括相"},{"start":14788.562,"end":14807.501,"text":"之前的豬肉豬肉的部分我想我們有很好的豬整個台灣豬產業的一個支持系統所以我們的整個的次舉率還是維持到88到90之間所以相對的這些國外進口的這些衝擊就在一個可控的一個風險之下那未來我想我們還是會以去持續去強化我們國內的產業為主軸"},{"start":14810.564,"end":14836.807,"text":"這是農業部的最後一個提醒就是因為之前你們有推一個斑斑喝鮮奶的政策當時其實也是因應紐西蘭的牛奶零關稅要進來台灣為保護弱農所以急救商推出來現在也無疾而終了嘛推一段時間後來也都不做了如果到時候談判造成說我們有一些農業產品必須降低關稅讓美國的產品進來因為現在也不是美國的到時候其他國家也有可能比較要求"},{"start":14837.788,"end":14853.85,"text":"就是說你對美國這樣降低那其他國家說那我要降低如果說到時候關稅降低的話我希望農業部有配套不要像上次斑斑喝鮮奶一樣講說保護國內的就叫學校去處理然後沒有配套措施就搞得一團亂"},{"start":14855.051,"end":14882.836,"text":"相關的配套我覺得要規劃好了我們的關稅的調整一定有後續的配套的作為對啊 上次的配套就慢慢喝鮮奶所以後來就團亂了鮮奶的政策是很正確的但是後面的執行細節有它一些地方政府還有一些學校之間那不是地方政府的問題啦因為今天時間不夠了農業部那時候推出來的時候就沒有規劃很完整嘛我是說以後萬一要配套的話希望能夠規劃完整再上路啦"},{"start":14883.598,"end":14904.538,"text":"要以那個斑斑喝鮮奶當做一個前車之鑒好謝謝好謝謝葉元之委員那下一位請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員不在好下一位請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":14916.352,"end":14917.133,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部賴次長還有農業部陳部長"},{"start":14925.751,"end":14951.639,"text":"主要影響是農業部跟經濟部所以今天主題是對我國農漁序以及關鍵產業競爭力的相關的影響那當然這個川普當然他的是變動性的常態常態是個變動性變動性的常態也是常態是變動性就好像川劇變的一樣幕不暇集今天逼著但是明天會換另外一種臉"},{"start":14953.968,"end":14972.704,"text":"彷彿這個川劇變臉但是他的內心沒有變他的內心就是他把那個臉他不講你的真實臉孔在哪裡但是他的內心就是讓美國再次偉大他的核心是美國的這個國家利益對不對所以這是基本上他是這個進攻型的這個現實主義者"},{"start":14975.249,"end":15001.304,"text":"他主動出擊去爭取他的國家利益用強勢逼迫透過這種方式我覺得他已經達到初步的目的所以各國要怎麼樣去因應川普的關稅的政策我認為我國可以用不變應萬變什麼叫不變第一對內的部分一定要強化這個產業的競爭力"},{"start":15004.653,"end":15023.293,"text":"你有競爭力你才有跟其他國家這個競爭的本錢不然關稅制度調整你有競爭力一定是比其他國家更有機會所以要不斷的強化這個產業競爭力第二個我們這個賴總統不是提到這個均衡台灣嗎我們要均衡全球的貿易市場"},{"start":15025.083,"end":15045.833,"text":"均衡全球貿易市場不要把所有的市場集中在特定國家比方說過去集中在中國還是美國我覺得全球六大洲都是我們的主要市場沒有分什麼次要市場所以你要持續強化均衡全球貿易市場強化對國際的行銷"},{"start":15051.581,"end":15065.782,"text":"另外一方面就是要全面透過這個時間盤點當前農工相關產品的關稅政策是不是也不合時宜是不是有檢討的必要這三個不變"},{"start":15067.894,"end":15095.295,"text":"持續推動 持續加強這對內的部分是可操之在我們但是不可操之在我們是在在美國的這個關稅政策我剛剛所提到 川劇變臉幾乎常常每天這變動是一個常態所以我們強化這如何跟這個主要貿易國家的這個協商的機制跟談判人員的強化駐美 我們談判小組駐美的這個經濟組統有多少人 那個賴市長"},{"start":15099.611,"end":15118.12,"text":"駐美經濟組的同仁,我去過啊,他們來滿多的18個人,不只是美國,整個北美,所以我告訴你,18個人你要加強,像行政院有跨部會的這個因應小組,我希望你這個經濟部也要組成跨局處的這個因應小組"},{"start":15121.562,"end":15125.946,"text":"國貿局 以前工業局 現在這個產發署相關的局處跟駐美經濟小組的我們駐美國的經濟組同仁要保持一個密切的聯繫前線跟後勤能夠馬上得到這個訊息的無縫接軌同樣的農業部也要如此辦理"},{"start":15145.865,"end":15170.99,"text":"包括你這個六項主要影響農業產品六項是主要影響的那六項總金額是多少錢蕭美的總金額是多少錢六項加起來現在目前加起來六項加起來大概是五十多億五十多億嘛相對於比這個經濟部主管的相關的我們產業的金額相當比較小但是不是因為比較小我們就不重視"},{"start":15172.31,"end":15198.886,"text":"但是我要強調就是說這個前線跟我們後行後線的這個協調機制非常重要所以怎麼樣派更多的紅人到這段時間去美國啊來協助怎麼樣去跟川普政府做更多的政策的協調戳傷也好因為90天之後他是暫緩90天90天之後還不知道是不是90天之後如期上路"},{"start":15200.575,"end":15220.849,"text":"還是會變 沒有人知道 只有川普知道但是我們做最壞的打算就是說如果90天 三個月之後他如期上路那我們還是要因應那90天是黃金的90天黃金的三個月你要把握這個時間去跟美國相關部位包括他們農業部 包括他們的商務部包括跟白宮相關的經濟的閣員"},{"start":15223.971,"end":15237.638,"text":"有更多的溝通 更多的協調在90天之內有一個進展讓美國可以接受我們做相關的政策的調整包括我們加強對美國的投資也要讓他們知道說投資哪些項目加強對美國的這個購買"},{"start":15240.694,"end":15265.811,"text":"比方說對美國有哪些產品我們可以加強來對他們的購買來平衡對美國的貿易的這個順利差我們對他們的順差非常高所以因為順差高我們才被他認為是高關稅的國家嘛所以我們加強投資加強對美採購這個一定要在三十九十天之內確實到位"},{"start":15267.165,"end":15277.353,"text":"品相經得都要清楚當然也包括其他部會包括我想能源也算是進一步吧對不對包括天然氣的採購包括相關的農產品的採購也當然包括國防"},{"start":15284.728,"end":15298.443,"text":"我覺得日本政府對這個因應我覺得還不錯從以前的這個歷任的這個這個首相對美國的這個貿易政策他們這個敏銳度非常高安倍"},{"start":15300.41,"end":15325.318,"text":"安倍首相他跟美國的只要說稍微跟美國對這個日本貿易的這個有一些意見的時候安倍他就馬上立刻放下身上去談判透過加強的這個採購來把這個貿易的順差把它降下來得到美國的這個信任然後美日關係又變成一個很準同盟的關係"},{"start":15326.977,"end":15354.507,"text":"另外一個極端例子就是這個中國中國對抗你看現在75國全部90天的暫緩對不對暫緩之後搞不好有這個談判的結果有談判的進度搞不好這邊這些關稅又會再下降又會回到原來的水準所以我覺得這個是川普過去他的這個執政一貫的策略先用高壓高壓之後逼著你一定要去談判"},{"start":15356.005,"end":15378.852,"text":"談判之後有一個好的結果當然共識當然對雙方都是好的對他的美國的國家利益也是好的對台灣也不見之不好對貿易的對手國也不見之不好所以我剛剛說對內的三個變對外我們要積極怎麼樣把握這次黃金三個月去跟美國建立起磋商的機制談判的這個具體成果這個很重要"},{"start":15380.281,"end":15408.9,"text":"這個農業部有沒有相關的單位在美國我想農業部我們有農業組在那邊那其實特別是針對剛才委員所說的其實均能全權的貿易是非常重要的就是我們沒辦法依賴一個單一的國家所以我們在這一次的支持方案裡面我們其實也考慮到這個所以在這些相關的這些行銷面的部分除了美國市場以外我們也針對主要的目標市場也同步在啟動讓這些產品能夠有更多元的這些市場"},{"start":15409.68,"end":15425.98,"text":"劇本不是我們寫的劇本是川普寫的但是我們要有因應劇本的相關的戰略你要想想看他可能會有哪些劇本過去說有這個李登輝總統說他掌握18套劇本對不對你們要設想到每一個scenario可能對台灣的產業衝擊對農業衝擊"},{"start":15429.312,"end":15442.483,"text":"然後針對這些相關的影響我們去做對內的相關的協調也好或者是跟產業界座談也好對外要加強對這個溝通時間到了還有很多事情另外投資台灣三大方案這也是經濟部的業務"},{"start":15450.229,"end":15465.849,"text":"我們希望說這一波的產業結構的調整這些全球供應鏈的重新的重組我希望有更多的這個核心關鍵產業能夠回來台灣但回來台灣你這個三大方案再延長到2027年對不對 那個市長"},{"start":15469.373,"end":15488.734,"text":"這個部分我們已經有規劃了那院長也有表示那基本上我們會依照這個三大投資方案的這個部分就你現在所說的到2027的部分去做規劃這個如果這一波回來可能是關鍵的產業所以他們回來中間性反而是更高"},{"start":15490.412,"end":15504.502,"text":"重要性更高所以我認為經濟部門要提供更好的EOE讓這些產業在重組的過程中願意來台灣再來投資回來台灣投資所以各國的經貿政策一定是以他的國家利益為主"},{"start":15505.515,"end":15533.39,"text":"所以我們當然我們在規劃任何的這個經貿政策當然以台灣的國家利益為主產業政策的利益為主所以包括農民的利益為主我相信兩位包括陳部長包括剛剛郭部長也來還有賴市長我想這段時間執政團隊非常辛苦那我相信你們也做好準備只是說很多事情非超支在我們是超支在美方超支在川普政府但是我們這些所有劇本都要很清楚做盤點"},{"start":15534.19,"end":15539.193,"text":"那我也提醒財政部理事長那個關稅你要怎麼利用這段時間做一些相關的全面盤點跟調整這個財政部有沒有相關的計畫因為關稅的調整主要還是要看產業主管機關他們對產業的影響評估"},{"start":15560.603,"end":15565.928,"text":"這部分財政部會來尊重主管機關評估的結果尊重主管機關那相關主管機關也要針對各個品項的關稅目前是到底合不合理到底造成的順差對美國的影響有多大這個應該去盤點只要說主管機關做出相關的建議財政部都願意做調整嗎"},{"start":15582.762,"end":15603.091,"text":"我們會經由這個主管機關做審慎評估因為他們會考量整個產業的這個發展還有就是會不會對台灣的就業造成影響或衝擊這部分我們會尊重產業主管機關評估的意見我要特別謝謝史上這個最好的趙偉給我給我額外的幾分鐘謝謝你來"},{"start":15611,"end":15637.907,"text":"讓你最後再solo的來現在登記發言委員除不在產者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員徐欣穎謝依鳳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家現在散會"},{"start":15656.289,"end":15657.733,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"16583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16583","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcdf824e3382b7a8d0d8b52470c073da944af80a8cb003b9ba6953d4993f1784155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-10T08:31:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T12:15:00+08:00","duration":13409,"影片長度":"03:43:29","委員發言時間":"08:31:31 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裁判是指法院"},{"start":1914.682,"end":1938.958,"text":"判斷事實還有適用法律之後呢最後所做成的這個決定那程式而言呢依法以判決之外呢都是用裁定來做那裁定的那個方式呢它可以是用口頭宣示然後記載於筆錄或者是說製作那個書面那如果說是用那個書面做的話呢就是它並沒有法定格式"},{"start":1940.322,"end":1957.979,"text":"譬如說最高法院呢他就承認說法院所簽發的這個押票呢他是書面裁定的一種那至於說這個本次報告所提指所那個詢問的這個劣勢裁定呢他其實並不是一個法定用語那在實務上"},{"start":1959.02,"end":1982.852,"text":"或者是學界呢也不是一個通用的用語那所以說它的意思到底是指什麼呢看起來好像是指說書上所承認的裁定書沒有固定格式這個意思可是確切的意涵是什麼這還是有待那個探求那至於說那個裁定的那個法定程式呢它可以分為裁定的成立是指說裁判機關它內部"},{"start":1984.773,"end":2004.542,"text":"所做這個裁定內容的這個決定那譬如說是何一庭評議之後形成的這決定或者是說那個獨任法官呢他寫完了裁判原本那裁定的那個生效呢裁定他一定要經過餘之使受裁判的人知道這是對外才會發生效力"},{"start":2005.362,"end":2030.982,"text":"那它的方式可能是當庭所做的時候就是用那個宣誓那如果說是不用抗告的話它可以只記載於那個筆錄那送達就是一定要經過那個送達之後對外才會發生效力那簡單講就是說裁定書雖然沒有一定格式但是它還是有以上就是有關於成立跟生效的這一些要求"},{"start":2034.233,"end":2049.08,"text":"還有還有時間還有時間對還有時間好那至於說有關於那個科控科控那個設備呢就是主要的有關於就是科控實施的還有"},{"start":2050.36,"end":2079.145,"text":"處分的變更跟延長跟撤銷呢他其實主要還是要看就是評估這個被告他是不是有高的那個逃亡的那個風險就是以這個然後由個案法官依這些個案情況來做判斷那至於說柯控現在執行的那個狀況還有就是本院的相關那個測定作為就是召開這一些那個會議那還有就是優化柯控告警的這些那個通報呢這都在那個書面上那個所示那以上"},{"start":2079.965,"end":2101.377,"text":"請各位委員先進行那個指教 謝謝各位好 謝謝 那接下來我們請鄭明謙部長報告各位委員 各位女士先生 早安那今天奉邀列席貴委員會代表本部列席報告並被質詢 此報告如下 請各位委員指教"},{"start":2102.216,"end":2116.144,"text":"那科控中心是在示範及法務部各自編列一半的預算共同委由抬高檢數負責規劃建設及維護管理那個案指揮這部分依據刑事被告科技監控"},{"start":2117.905,"end":2139.291,"text":"執行辦法第五條規定偵查中是由檢察員來指揮審判中是由審判長或受命法官來指揮執行監控的相關的一個事宜至於劣勢裁定這部分這個整個相關的依據理由程序及救濟方法這個司法院的一個主管的本部緊究法律規定提供大院來做一個參佐"},{"start":2141.141,"end":2167.171,"text":"那另外科控的一個執行的科控的相關的規定那變更延長撤銷科控的這些的一個說明執行科技監控的這些案件的一類型並沒有限制刑事訴法116條之二117條之一法官檢查完任何必要時再符合比例原則下可為科技設備監控作為羈押的替代處分至於何種的載具"},{"start":2168.611,"end":2188.74,"text":"監控方式監控期間是否變更延長或撤銷處分就由法官檢查依據記錄個案通盤考量各種因素妥善來決定審判中有法院以裁定行之偵查中有檢查以命名行之至於科控設備的期間期滿是不再續間的時候只需由法官在審判中"},{"start":2189.58,"end":2206.649,"text":"在審判系統檢查在案管系統操縱監控平台通知監控中心期滿拆機即可並會以裁定來通知拆機的那歷年開案的件數可以知道科控的這些開案件數逐年增加13年度較112年度增加3.2倍"},{"start":2207.97,"end":2222.355,"text":"相較11年度更大幅度增加超過10倍的一個開案件數114年1到3月已經達80件可見科控設備相關的優化感染系統及本部及首屬檢查機關教訓都已經成效"},{"start":2223.155,"end":2243.526,"text":"那科技監控的科控中心在個案指揮時區分偵查中和審判中分別由檢察官法官指揮科技科控中心來實施個案監控本部將督導抬高監署持續強化硬體設備優化資訊系統兼顧防止被告逃亡和保障人權以上報告敬請主席各位委員參考謝謝"},{"start":2247.469,"end":2261.1,"text":"好 謝謝那請問一下其餘列席官員有沒有要上台報告的好 那沒有的話機關代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2266.148,"end":2282.659,"text":"現在我們開始進行尋答本會委員尋答時間為8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員尋答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":2291.854,"end":2318.511,"text":"謝謝主席,請司法院王副秘書長、法務部部長麻煩部長還有副秘兩位好,上一次針對有關於中文字細胞檢討的案子我想副秘書長應該還記得很清楚那天我請教您,為什麼高院的裁定"},{"start":2319.796,"end":2332.006,"text":"對於保證金取代科技監控設備完全找不到結果搞了半天是連裁定都沒有做完全沒有做完全沒有做"},{"start":2333.687,"end":2350.44,"text":"等到事情大調了以後才開始匆匆補做我們先分兩個層次的問題剛剛第一個層次的問題就是複密講的沒有錯裁定你要不然要宣示要不然要送達才會對外發言人效力"},{"start":2351.923,"end":2372.671,"text":"那我現在下一個問題來了因為這個裁定一直到了今年我們質詢完了以後發現當初根本沒有做才在今年3月28號補做下面的問題是去年10月16號的時候是不是叫中文字或者是通知他的辯護人多拿2000萬來辦繳保是沒有錯嗎是那請他繳2000萬的法律基礎是什麼"},{"start":2382.93,"end":2391.669,"text":"在去年10月16號的時候在我們的法律世界當中沒有任何一個裁判可以命他多繳2000萬我說的沒有錯吧"},{"start":2395.595,"end":2419.083,"text":"委員您垂詢的是那也正是因為何義廷的這個為師就是沒有就是送答然後也沒有在當庭言辭做宣示所以他們所做的這個就是違反一個程序的規定也因此呢司法院的態度很清楚就是我們後來查細這些事情之後司法院的態度我等一下會問啦我們是法律人嘛因為我如果再問A問題然後你再回答B答案這樣大家會聽不懂啊"},{"start":2423.924,"end":2451.324,"text":"這樣對不起來嘛現在我的問題很具體啊去年10月16號叫他拿兩千萬來的那個法律的基礎是什麼我從法律的觀點看是沒有法律的基礎我這樣的理解有沒有錯誤可以這樣說因為那個裁定根本沒有對外生效那現在問題來了啊現在這兩千萬如果人家要你還他那你怎麼辦那個報告委員因為這個部分就是"},{"start":2452.566,"end":2479.875,"text":"之後的這一些程序的處理它還是涉及到審判的核心這個部分我們司法行政也不便對就是就何一庭這個職權的行使來做一個回答現在喔何一庭啊出了這個大包他們要負責這個我同意我其實也沒有在怪您啊因為那財一定也不是你做人也不是你放的嘛要你在這邊幫他挨罵幫他背鍋對你也不公平啊"},{"start":2480.697,"end":2508.529,"text":"但是我覺得在法律上面我們在討論法律制度的問題就要把法律制度的問題講清楚所以我現在擔心的第一個事情是什麼第一個事情是去年繳的那兩千萬沒有法律授權的基礎你憑什麼給人家留著今天如果中文字囂張一點啊就叫他辯護人啊叫你們兩千萬還來啊當初你要我繳那兩千萬根本沒有法律的基礎啊這個時候怎麼辦"},{"start":2510.431,"end":2516.112,"text":"這個說我國司法制度就尷尬了真的就尷尬了第二個部分"},{"start":2518.328,"end":2544.892,"text":"在你今天司法院的報告也不了解的所謂劣勢裁定嘛因為今天你報告我覺得法律人有一說一對於這樣的精神我基本上是認同的啦司法院在書面報告上跟全國的法律人講說我們的司法院也搞不清楚什麼叫劣勢裁定那顯然啦這個法官知道出了包了以後想要亡羊補牢"},{"start":2546.536,"end":2565.72,"text":"去發明了這個詞出來但是我對你們講的一個詞啊是有意見的 什麼意見啊 來看一下裁定雖然沒有判決書格式那麼嚴謹的要求那但是什麼 但是刑事訴訟法50條到51條針對於裁判書所應記載的內容基本上是有規定的嘛"},{"start":2571.536,"end":2597.93,"text":"所以即使是裁定刑事訴訟法51條針對裁判書所應記載的內容也有要求嗎是的我這樣說應該沒有錯嗎是的那因為你們公告的裁定跟原始的裁定是不是一樣我們無從得知啦因為依照刑事訴訟法的規定裡面有一些針對有關於受裁定人要被特定的那些資料是應記載的事項沒有錯嗎"},{"start":2602.028,"end":2618.533,"text":"您聽不懂嗎?是我聽得懂是我這樣說應該沒有錯嗎?是好那所以但是你們現在所公告的這個劣勢裁定對於實際上面那個裁定的原本跟正本是不是相符的這件事情司法院確認過了嗎?"},{"start":2623.27,"end":2641.07,"text":"因為那個書記官嘛 上面是寫說上面正本的製作跟原本相符嘛那按照目前司法院或高院所採取的立場是案件審理單可能也是書面裁定的一種嘛我特別加可能兩個字啦還是你們現在就確定是裁定的一種"},{"start":2642.315,"end":2643.756,"text":"我現在就問得很清楚囉"},{"start":2663.934,"end":2689,"text":"如果這個審理單我們按照高院的那個法官他的主張他認為是所謂的裁定的話他現在顯然就這樣主張嘛他的主張只是這個裁定有沒有對外發生法律效果嘛所以是不是要補送答的問題嘛那我現在的問題是那個案件審理單上面的資訊跟他現在公告的這個裁定的資訊內容是不是一樣這件事情確認過了嗎"},{"start":2690.828,"end":2705.36,"text":"跟委員報告就是說就我們因為這個自律的那個內容也都已經揭露那這個我們可以報告就是說他們這個審理單上就是最早原始的那個記載就是如現在所那個揭示的那但是那個自律"},{"start":2706.862,"end":2728.824,"text":"之所以他們成立決議說這要送法平有為師其中的第二個理由就是說他們後來在上面還有再增加了一些那個增刪了一些東西這個現在就是我的核心問題喔當初的案件審理單我姑且把它成為A版本嘛但是現在公告的裁定是B版本嘛"},{"start":2729.364,"end":2752.176,"text":"我應該沒有說錯吧現在公告的是第一個版本是A版本他後來還有第二跟第三他後面還有第二跟第三個版本這個新聞稿上已經有揭露了法官可以這樣做嗎因為依刑事訴訟法40條就是公務員所製作的文書有增刪的時候呢就是一定要去註記"},{"start":2754.738,"end":2776.266,"text":"不是啊 依照他們現在的看法啦那個裁定啊 成立的時間點到底是什麼那個裁定成立的時間點是A版本 B版本 還是C版本因為我現在 如果按照您剛剛這樣的講法現在有三個版本的裁定喔現在公告的是第一個版本嘛那第二個版本跟第三個版本從司法院的觀點算什麼"},{"start":2777.979,"end":2796.998,"text":"隨便亂寫的東西這個部分要由何義廷來回答這司法院沒有辦法幫忙做解釋我尊重審判獨立啦但是你如果尊重審判獨立尊重到ABC三個版本要怎麼回答都要由何義廷來回答在司法的公眾監督上面"},{"start":2798.117,"end":2816.839,"text":"沒有辦法處理這件事情那等於是法官針對自己的裁定可以做很多版本嗎司法院的態度很清楚因為他們這樣子做就已經是違背了這些程式規定也因此有這個圍屍呢那個高院的資歷委員會就是送法屏的圍屍是有 又包括這一塊"},{"start":2819.165,"end":2831.662,"text":"這法官百分之百應該要送懲戒這我跟你沒有意見不一樣的地方現在我在請教的是在法律上面現在這個裁定到底是A版本 B版本還是C版本"},{"start":2833.697,"end":2862.217,"text":"因為他會牽涉到一個更大的問題是我昨天啊請教一下法務部部長的上面的記載後來被抽換那我相信我們都是法律人不要爭執這件事情啦這種事情用抽換的方式是不對的嘛我的理解沒有錯吧電話紀錄嗎還是手提單電話紀錄是對這也是違反刑事說法40條來那個部長我昨天請教完了你以後你有沒有回去瞭解那個檢察官到底有沒有表達這個看法"},{"start":2864.064,"end":2883.921,"text":"這部分是如同那個整個電話紀錄裡面我們還在調查中你們還在調查嗎因為這個還在那個調卷嘛希望齁 動作可以快一點希望可以動作快一點因為這個司法大醜聞啊 整個社會啊都非常非常的關心那最後 我先請教一下司法院副秘書長 說"},{"start":2886.038,"end":2895.385,"text":"因為那位審判長他已經不事任兼任庭長了嘛你們說你們要開人審會把他庭長拔掉嘛庭長拔掉沒有"},{"start":2896.245,"end":2918.353,"text":"報告委員 因為這位庭長他後來在4月1號的時候他就寫了簽成自行免監那這個也已經核定下來了所以連人審會都不用開了嗎是 預計4月14號派令會生效接下來整個懲處的程序可能對於法官評鑑委員會"},{"start":2920.185,"end":2948.928,"text":"的公信力 社會公信力 可能會再遭受一次社會全面的檢視 這個司法院應該心裡有數嗎是的 也跟委員報告 在昨天的時候呢就是這一個申請書也送到法評會了OK 好 來 接下來請部長那個部長我知道你等一下要走齁 我們講快一點之前啊 我揭露有檢察官跑去跟無奶人吃香喝辣"},{"start":2949.926,"end":2978.379,"text":"那後來呢地檢署就地檢署的部分有把這幾個檢察官送檢察官評鑑嘛那之前呢你們回給我的函說高檢署有要做行政調查報告這個行政調查報告完成了嗎各位委員報告齁這個高檢這個有發交給北檢來做行政調查那北檢的行政調查是認為這個有違反公務員所以在這邊齁來來來你看你公文最下一行"},{"start":2979.119,"end":2996.68,"text":"高檢的行政調查持續進行中尚未結案所以你現在回給我的高檢的行政調查到底還有沒有在進行還是北檢移送評鑑以後就算結案了因為這個已經移送那個個案評鑑那這部分高檢贊同這種的看法所以這邊已經結案了蛤"},{"start":2998.628,"end":3013.875,"text":"這個部分就算結案了這個一定會送個案評鑑因為所有參與參會的這些五位檢察官都送個案評鑑現在喔我公開質疑過一個問題我到目前為止沒有聽到法務部的回應所以我想今天公開請教你的回應"},{"start":3015.051,"end":3041.909,"text":"把這五個檢察官送評鑑我非常贊成我非常贊成敗壞檢察官的官真敗壞檢察官的官真傷害司法的公信力但我的問題啊 是什麼這個標準有適用所有的檢調嗎為什麼我這樣問當初北檢的檢察長在當調查局局長的時候跑去台塑的招待所"},{"start":3043.356,"end":3066.986,"text":"跑去台塑的招待所那個時候正在接受調查的是誰是鄭文燦還有送他錢的楊兆琳還有送他錢的楊兆琳這個是等於什麼調查局帶了一堆官員去台塑的招待所招待一個貪污犯送錢的人他們的招待"},{"start":3069.705,"end":3078.996,"text":"為什麼調查局的局長現在北檢的檢察長可以幹這種事情然後都不需要接受任何的行政調查或懲處是有雙標嗎"},{"start":3081.434,"end":3105.6,"text":"是有雙標嗎這個沒有雙標如果沒有雙標的話 那請問針對這位前調查局局長現在台北地檢署的檢察長法務部做了什麼處理因為我看不到我公開發文質疑了非常久啊是跟全國的檢察官說即使那個貪汙犯那個送錢的正在被調查"},{"start":3107.219,"end":3129.674,"text":"只要財大氣粗一樣可以去他的招待所吃喝玩樂是這樣嗎請部長這部分如果有具體事真那我們是絕對聽聽聽這上面寫的還不夠清楚喔這上面寫的還不夠清楚喔王俊麗也沒有否認他有去啊他從頭到尾沒有否認他有去啊"},{"start":3135.506,"end":3155.865,"text":"他說他去是公務啊我看不懂這是什麼公務啊一個正在被你調查貪污犯送錢給鄭文燦的在招待所裡面招待你結果他跟社會說是公務然後整個法務部從上到下靜悄悄都不用調查 不用處理來 請部長"},{"start":3159.878,"end":3187.975,"text":"我們再重申就是我們會秉公處理絕對不會互端好 你說要秉公處理我非常讚賞可不可以講具體一點如何秉公處理那這個還是經過要了解這個還要了解 你要了解多久給你一個禮拜了解夠不夠這件事情發生很久了啦我也公開質疑很久了啦只不過我人為言輕狗吠火車啊我公開質疑了以後到今天從法務部到高檢署到台北地檢署沒有一個人回應啊"},{"start":3189.534,"end":3203.106,"text":"大家都在裝沒事啦反正用混的混過去就好啦然後您今天說要秉公處理不要講空話如何秉公處理主席站起來了給我一個答案就好你需要多久你說你還要調查嗎沒關係我給你時間調查一個禮拜夠不夠"},{"start":3208.208,"end":3225.439,"text":"我們半個月兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好兩個禮拜我們來瞭解看看兩個禮拜這件事情該什麼處理請法務部正式的回函給所有世華法治委員會的委員好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":3228.547,"end":3249.733,"text":"好那我們同時就由於那個議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定我們現在先確認議事錄請問各位委員就上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定來請陳委員好謝謝主席那有請司法院副秘書長謝謝麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":3254.91,"end":3276.392,"text":"好 副秘書長早安那我想國人對於今天的主題都非常關心那我相信剛剛在前一個委員質詢當中你們說都有相關進度那我想我們後續就一起關心那我還是要回到我自己的主題我想跟您討論關於創意司法案裡面創意司法案裡面我們看到可以修法的部分還有報導者在去年做了一系列的報導"},{"start":3277.153,"end":3301.22,"text":"告訴我們在整個檢調偵辦過程當中就法律上的工具還有很多法律的見解可能讓現場第一線的工作人員需要更多的支持我們來看一下暴走者的案件裡面第一個部分是談到同一個案件裡面針對數位時代的犯罪形態在法院見解的部分哪一個部分呢就是當時被害人位於台中"},{"start":3301.94,"end":3316.513,"text":"那於是呢檢察官就向台中地院申請羈押可是台中地院卻認為行為人持有影片的時候那個人他正在新北所以呢台中沒有管轄權那他們認為必須要移轉或是主託給新北檢察官來申請羈押這個部分當然我不知道當時是透過了什麼樣的溝通陳檢察官後來還是在台中辦了這個案子但是我想知道司法院"},{"start":3328.764,"end":3335.849,"text":"在目前这一类型的案件有什么后续的态度因为我相信这不会是第一个案子好这边请简单回应一下"},{"start":3338.342,"end":3362.208,"text":"那個 有關於那個管轄那個規定呢其實刑事訴訟法都有那個相關的那個規定那現在可能就是各法院之間就是對於對於譬如說什麼是結果地因為如果說是犯罪行為地的話或者是這個被告他的駐居所這個都比較不會有爭議那就是說什麼叫做那個犯罪結果所發生的地方可能就是有那個大家所採那個見解"},{"start":3363.348,"end":3380.184,"text":"有不太那個好那可是喔如果在過往比較單純的案件我覺得比較好去歸納但是我覺得網路時代數位時代的犯罪樣態確實已經很不一樣了那從這個陳祥偉檢察官所辦這個創意私房案的案例我們可以看見"},{"start":3380.865,"end":3399.491,"text":"那如果大家還是踩著過去的見解沒有討論的空間跟可能性我認為會對第一線檢察官造成很大的阻礙那我想你剛剛的說法聽起來就是大家可以溝通可以討論雖然有各自的見解但是我比較希望你們在這件事情上還是要有相關的態度對於第一線工作人員的支持好嗎"},{"start":3400.431,"end":3427.964,"text":"謝謝委員那我再補充一下這是因為隨著就是我們現在那個資訊的那個犯罪因為資訊的犯罪他事實上在電腦裡面已經不是跑到一個行為去殺人或是去傷害那所以就是說這種新興的那個議題確實我們法院這個部分的我們會因為學界已經就是有相關的那個討論蠻多的那我想我們這個部分我們也會就是說進一步的那個加強就是對於法官的那個賠利然後大家尋求共識"},{"start":3428.604,"end":3445.439,"text":"太好了謝謝好謝謝對於法官的賠利尋求共識讓檢調人員他們有覺得獲得支持好那接下來要溝通的部分是關於立法工具的部分這個部分我還是想要跟司法院討論看看也想知道你們的見解在這份報導當中呢再次提到刑事訴訟法101之一"},{"start":3447.04,"end":3463.994,"text":"因为被告有反复实施犯行之余而得羁押的要件在这条当中并没有把儿少性剥削防治条例犯罪列入范围但事实上在制造儿少性影片的这些犯罪人行为人极有可能高度"},{"start":3465.718,"end":3479.276,"text":"反覆犯案那導致於呢這個檢察官認為在相關的法律上應該要與時俱進同時他在偵辦的過程當中他也認為被告有篡證的可能為由去申請羈押可是"},{"start":3480.357,"end":3495.181,"text":"實務上的案例就是成功性不高因為法官常常認為網路犯罪的人只有網路交流現實生活中互不認識所以不符合目前訂定的羈押要件一樣是法官的見解這邊可不可以請你們回應一下"},{"start":3505.154,"end":3523.634,"text":"那個跟委員報告那個確實目前的那個101-1的那個反覆實施之餘這個要件的這個羈押要件確實沒有把這個新剝削這邊歸納進去那這個部分我想是一個政策的一個形式政策的一個決定啦那我覺得謝謝委員那個垂詢這個部分我們也會帶回去研議"},{"start":3524.355,"end":3532.723,"text":"那我想不要只有研議我自己其實已經有提出修法版本了而且也已經都連署完成了我們當時的訴求就是希望可以強化兒少保護網而且我們有具體的作為所以我自己也提了修法那我當然不確定這個會期我們有沒有機會討論到這麼具體的事情可是我認為這件事情你們應該也可以提早做出準備"},{"start":3544.714,"end":3568.803,"text":"不管是跟專家學者演繹或者是實務上的見解第一線的工作人員的意見的收集我相信這件事情絕對可以加大保護兒少網這個部分 可以嗎可以 謝謝好 謝謝喔那我們就期待你們後續的進度喔好 那這邊謝謝那我們要請警政署好 謝謝副秘書長 謝謝警政署有來對不對 謝謝刑事警察局副局長"},{"start":3572.16,"end":3597.472,"text":"好那一樣同一篇報導我要先說在這篇報導裡面他有提到以上這一段文字我就簡單說一下檢察官說他在三年前開始辦這個案子的時候其實是沒有人想要辦的不想辦的原因並不是檢察官偷懶推卸責任而是這樣大規模的案子而且新型態的數位網路犯罪其實相關的案例在過往可能沒有辦法太多參考的案例而且他說"},{"start":3598.652,"end":3617.684,"text":"當時加害者被害者都分散全台一半就要長期抗爭檢察官要找專業熱情可以長時間投入的人來幫忙可是他所面對第一的困境就是來幫忙的這些警察同仁在這一類型的案件上並沒有績效"},{"start":3618.664,"end":3634.356,"text":"也就是沒有加分啦那要把這麼多人被害人集結起來必須要花費非常多的人力跟心力只有靠使命感硬撐下去是很辛苦的那當然最後檢察官是用組織犯罪條例去起訴給原警們相關的誘因這對警察來說非常的重要"},{"start":3637.438,"end":3656.386,"text":"那來自警政署的你我不知道你怎麼看這件事情我必須要說我非常佩服這個檢察官他最後決定採用組織犯罪防治條例讓相關協助辦案的警察人員獲得了相關的獎勵但是如果沒有這個檢察官想到我不知道這個案子還要拖多久"},{"start":3656.866,"end":3682.418,"text":"在相關第一線的辦案我們來看其實警政署你們在2017年曾經有執行過一個叫做青春專案我投影片這邊有相關的數字這個青春專案裡面呢你們當時調整了績效你們跟警察說只要相關案件可以以兒少性剝削防治條例第36條第36條到第40條移送就可以評比和分所以當時各縣市都大力的查緝喔"},{"start":3682.998,"end":3705.863,"text":"当时你看2017年查器数字来到将近3000可是到了2018年却说相关的案子检查体系怀疑滥行移送所以到了2018年评比的方法又改了说相关的案件必须要报请检察官指挥并且深压嫌犯警察才能核分"},{"start":3707.103,"end":3731.51,"text":"這都是在報導裡面相關的檢察官所指出的問題結果門檻提升之後呢請警政署這邊看一下到了2018年就落到了七八百件而已可是你會想說搞不好是犯罪案例變少了嗎並沒有在衛福部近年所通報的數字當中其實網路兒少性剝削的通報數量是越來越多"},{"start":3732.31,"end":3755.56,"text":"但是因為沒有好的獎勵的工具其實可能讓我們的員警沒有動力去做這件事情不知道身為長官的您怎麼看這件事情有沒有機會我們一起來突破這個困境跟委員報告我想創意司法我們九大隊配合警察官去偵辦這個案件我知道大家都非常的配合"},{"start":3755.8,"end":3780.797,"text":"非常的辛苦所以有關績效的部分不管是村安或是青春專案那警政署的立場就是讓偵辦犯罪常態化是那在整個獎程的部分我想在這個部分我們回去來研究怎麼樣獎程的方式獎程的方式來提高他們的誘因就是偵辦刑案的誘因那因為青春專案的部分在過去裡面"},{"start":3781.477,"end":3793.566,"text":"在兒少這個部分確實像2017到2018那後來慢慢都讓他已經變成常態化我沒有意見對於常態化當然是好事可是因為如果他沒有相關績效相對於現在的網路詐騙"},{"start":3797.108,"end":3817.097,"text":"它是有績效加分的或者是販毒的部分應該也是有的可是網路耳上性剝削這個部分它應該可能是沒有的我不確定但看起來是這樣它就是如同你所說的它是一個常態性所以可能對基層員警來說當他每天有這麼多的事情要處理的時候可能這件事情的優先度就不會這麼高"},{"start":3818.277,"end":3838.418,"text":"是這回去我們會研究有關我們有沒有機會在一個月後收到您研議的相關報告或是開啟相關討論的報告好我們一個月好謝謝秦政署那我再跟您講另外一個事情除了我剛剛說的績效之外目前的報案機制在這個報導裡面他有談他說當時有一個少女的母親去報警"},{"start":3839.98,"end":3866.218,"text":"然後呢 在報警的當下 在那個前後加害人繼續傳送訊息給這個少女說你去報警啊 反正你抓不到我那根據我們了解 之所以這個加害人敢這麼囂張就是因為其實地方員警基層派出所的同仁他們也許不具備有這樣子的網路 而是要性剝削的偵辦能力所以他們在第一時間收到這樣的案例我相信有大部分基層同仁是不知道該怎麼辦的"},{"start":3867.379,"end":3887.09,"text":"一樣我們不可以去責怪基層的同仁我們必須要問我們在面對這麼多層出不窮的網路網上性剝削的案件數量逐年增高的情況下我們到底可以怎麼辦這邊我有一個建議我想要請你們思考看看內政部也請思考看看基層的派出所不一定有這個專業可是可不可以用縣市"},{"start":3888.371,"end":3911.5,"text":"或是區域為中心去建立一個兒少性剝削的專責窗口由派出所收到案子之後他就把案子轉介出去他只留下一個簡單的記錄確實記錄我收到了然後我轉出去了而這個專責的窗口當然就會有專業的工作人員在裡頭他可以協助家長協助被害人第一時間獲得該有的資源跟支持"},{"start":3911.88,"end":3926.129,"text":"你覺得這個部分我們有沒有機會來完成或是開啟相關的討論因為這樣子不但會讓家長覺得安心被害人覺得安心我們也讓基層的員警知道我們並不是只加工作在他們身上但是卻沒有給予他們支持"},{"start":3927.065,"end":3951.818,"text":"跟委員報告就我在地方服務的經驗事實上兒少先剝削這樣的案件大部分我們都會轉接到婦幼隊所以婦幼隊是一個很大的窗口所有的案件比如說就我在地方服務的經驗比較矚目比較矚目我一定是會交給婦幼隊來處理所以我想現行應該是有婦幼隊這個窗口那因為大部分的案件所有的案件"},{"start":3952.538,"end":3971.266,"text":"很多所以為什麼很多都是受理案件他們都派出所但是我想這個部分只要是比如像這種創意私房有專業的案件現在是科徵的時代那科徵的時代大概三個月整個科徵的手法就變了所以我們刑事局在科徵的部分也不斷在普及這科徵教育"},{"start":3971.886,"end":3986.576,"text":"我當然知道現在有婦幼隊因為我有我知道但是我必須要說就婦幼隊來說他們除了這種網路而上性博學的案例之外還有更多是婦幼隊的業務範圍所以我剛在想的是在這麼多數位時代新型態犯罪而且數量層"},{"start":3987.757,"end":4012.131,"text":"越來越高的情況下我認為我們真的有必要去研議一個專責的窗口跟單位當然您不用在這裡立刻承諾我可是我認為我們確實有開啟這個討論的必要好嗎那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤喔所以我最後的結論要求就是我想要請司法院警政署就我今天的質詢相關的事項還有相關的報導所提到的困境在一個月內召開會議提出相關的因應"},{"start":4013.172,"end":4041.881,"text":"就算事情非常複雜跟龐雜沒有辦法在一個月內解決這是正常的但我希望我們可以開啟相關討論給我們書面報告還有就是請法務部警政署針對相關偵辦兒少性剝削案件的同仁合理的續講那我相信這個名單你們應該是有的那這個合理續講的名單跟相關的機制我認為我們回過頭補應該是可以的不要讓基層的同仁在這些案件上疲於奔命但卻沒有得到該有的獎賞跟鼓勵"},{"start":4042.781,"end":4067.647,"text":"好 那這個進度我們也會跟你們追有沒有機會在一個月內完成續獎名單 回頭去追回頭追續獎名單 因為續獎有它的程序啦我們盡量好不好好 那多久 大概會多是多久在你們合理的程序時間當中續獎的話 兩個月好不好好 謝謝 那我們會記錄下來謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們下一位請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":4076.369,"end":4083.118,"text":"林委員不好意思 先等一下 因為待會部長10點要先離開剛剛黃國昌委員說兩個禮拜 也有其他委員傳訊息給我說 希望下下禮拜再安排一次"},{"start":4092.971,"end":4121.318,"text":"就是就北檢的部分想要再就教法務部那這部分先跟部長說明一下那可能我們下禮拜還會再排一個類似的那個相關議程的那個會議那再麻煩部長能夠到時候過來好 謝謝部長謝謝主席主席 府院同仁 大家好早安好 那我就先請副秘書長"},{"start":4122.557,"end":4123.201,"text":"好 麻煩複密署長"},{"start":4127.478,"end":4155.85,"text":"副議員早安副議事長謝謝基本上我有一個前言我還是比較希望能夠針對政策面積整個系統性去處理好 那我講一下在我們整個民主法治的社會當中司法制度的正當性跟透明性會影響到個案的正義的實現那也是維繫民眾對國家信賴的根本那本席今天想要從這個主題略是裁定可能侵害人身自由的爭議"},{"start":4156.73,"end":4172.801,"text":"跟第二個部分是詐欺犯罪這跟法務部比較有關詐欺犯罪因量刑過輕而造成社會的不安最後呢是大法官針對死刑核限做出的這個釋憲的模糊那我們看到在個別制度上的一個瑕疵"},{"start":4174.121,"end":4200.572,"text":"而且司法權在程序設計跟實務操作上面臨的一個深層的挑戰所以本席希望在司法的這個部分如果沒有明確的依據應有的通知義務跟有效的救濟機制那會導致程序的濫用也會動搖民眾對正義的一個信仰因此本席今天提出的質詢是希望司法院與法務部能夠正視制度性風險是"},{"start":4201.932,"end":4229.669,"text":"然後來回應民意的期待那重建司法的信任與正當性所以我們就進入第一個有關於司法權核心正當性跟制度透明性的一個問題那也就是跟這個劣勢裁定有關法院在涉及科技設備監控等限制人身自由的處分所作出的劣勢裁定的依據與程序有沒有具備法律基礎或使用是否符合"},{"start":4230.269,"end":4250.594,"text":"法定的要件跟憲法的一個原則還是或者是在這個實務上是不是有存在著這個制度的濫用權責的不清還有資訊不透明等現象我想前面也有委員把個案的細節闡述得蠻清楚的本席這邊想就系統性跟政策面來跟您就一個探討"},{"start":4251.514,"end":4268.154,"text":"所以在這個我們都知道的中文字案對一般民眾來講可能很不解的就是在高等法院已經定驗了判刑三十年之後涉案人還能夠潛逃失聯那直接的原因是高等法院你們在去年的這個"},{"start":4269.535,"end":4297.255,"text":"十月中旬的這個劣勢加保的裁定那這個裁定呢是換取不予延長科技監控的決定但是依照我們這邊所得到的這個相關的資料沒有依法公告也沒有送達檢調機關對不起檢查機關也沒有通知當事人辯護人以至於檢方完全喪失抗告的這個可能程序最主要是程序感覺好像蕩然無存"},{"start":4298.035,"end":4325.511,"text":"所以然後事後檢院之間的通報電話記錄又還有不同的版本那行政程序到資訊的記錄都不太明顯那就讓人有一種偽造的疑慮所以這讓人家想到有點像是法官的審理權的濫用跟法院內部程序是不是已經失控那它好像不是一個個案的問題而是司法機關制度性風險的一個問題"},{"start":4327.412,"end":4352.16,"text":"那劣勢裁定以本席這邊所了解的是刑事訴訟法第455條以下規定的特例程序設定的目的是犯罪輕微案件單純的情形但是經過被告同意之後由法院不經延遲辯論迅速裁定那麼在監控處分跟保釋條件還有科技設備使用等直接干預人身自由的情境當中"},{"start":4353.396,"end":4368.466,"text":"引用的劣勢程序那法律依據是什麼呢程序上是不是應該進行刑事訴訟法第101條關於羈押監控延長的公開審理與通知義務那這個部分是不是可以就教副秘書長"},{"start":4369.704,"end":4390.684,"text":"好 那個謝謝委員垂詢那有關於那個委員關心這個議題其實我們在那個報告中就是已經有那個提及了這一個案件它最主要那個為師其實並不是說就是這個裁定那個格式的那個問題而是說裁定呢它"},{"start":4391.405,"end":4409.315,"text":"一定有法定的程序就是什麼時候成立什麼時候要對外生效那對外生效這個是一個最基本的你要不然的話就是當庭所做的呢就是以言詞把它宣示出來讓當庭所在的當事人他可以聽懂了說法院對我所做的裁定是什麼"},{"start":4409.835,"end":4421.076,"text":"所以就只針對當事人所以相關的相關人等 不然的話就是說你沒有當庭宣誓的話你就要把它做成一個裁定書把它那個送達"},{"start":4423.095,"end":4449.936,"text":"之後呢就當然還有那個公告的這一些那個程序那所以本件的那個問題並不是說他的這個裁定的那個格式是不是用一個比較一個簡便的因為像那個最高法院他也承認說這個裁定他沒有一定的格式像我們在那個羈押的時候呢法官他會做一張押票這固定格式那這個謝謝複密署長本席在一開始就跟你們講說本席不想落入個案的一個討論"},{"start":4450.737,"end":4471.42,"text":"但是就這個個案影響到了整個系統性的問題是本席最想要跟您就教的那要跟委員報告的是就是說其實在我們那個法院呢大部分的那個法官都是非常敬業而且都是那個課刑就是刑事訴訟法所做的那個規定的所以這類那個裁定呢它之所以為什麼我們"},{"start":4472.18,"end":4490.646,"text":"會進入那個懲處的那個程序他真的就是個案他真的就是個案那你們有沒有從這個個案再去檢視系統性有沒有失靈本席這邊提一下那你這個明文的規定對不起明文的依據為什麼會是司法實務當中可以被啟動的處分形式如果他沒有一個明文的依據"},{"start":4492.503,"end":4511.995,"text":"那你們有沒有存在其他同樣被劣勢處理但是沒有依法紀錄沒有送達或沒有給予救濟機會的案件那你們有沒有掌握這個統計數據跟運用範圍我們目前除了這個我們不知道其他有這樣子圍屍的情形因為這就是一個圍屍有沒有可能有有沒有可能有"},{"start":4517.882,"end":4535.166,"text":"這個案件是因為眾所矚目嘛那其他有沒有像這樣子的狀況有可能 有沒有有沒有可能啦 妳覺得如果說從可能性的話這個我當然就是從機率上我沒有辦法說是那個不行那我想我們大部分的這個法官可能還不太確定有沒有嘛"},{"start":4535.566,"end":4558.392,"text":"所以你們有沒有可能就針對這樣一個相關的裁定形式是否浮現展開一些研究調查本席經常從個案會看整體性的一個問題所以本席這邊所提出來就是說你不太確定有沒有可能有這樣子的狀況那你們是不是藉這個機會也去檢視一下然後這中間為師的這個部分可以作為這系統性檢視的一個參考你們覺得呢"},{"start":4559.306,"end":4585.662,"text":"是可以的 但是就是說裁定它是不要一定那個格式的妳講的是這個個案啦所以我在講這個整個我們那個通案就是說本來就是最高法院我們實務界這是我們大家慣行的就是裁定它沒有一定格式可是最重要的就是說你一定要把它裁定對外宣示出去這個才是爭點所以這個部分有沒有其他的案件會有現在這個情況"},{"start":4587.808,"end":4608.188,"text":"有沒有可能有其他案件會有像這樣子的情況不是只有這個眾所矚目的中文制案件我們通常那個法官就是因為這就是一個為私行為通常那個法官都是依照那個法律規定在進行的好 就是這個通常嘛所以本席就是藉這個個案提醒您是不是有機會檢視一下檢視一下"},{"start":4615.352,"end":4632.198,"text":"這個部分本席這邊再做一個建議啦是不是可以專案調查就劣勢裁定的適用範圍通知義務跟救濟保障還有相關案件失誤比例提出一些透明的統計數據那如果目前還沒有建立通報跟送達"},{"start":4632.998,"end":4659.351,"text":"制度之標準作業程序希望不知道這個部分有沒有如果還沒有是不是可以由司法院統一來頒布規則並對全國的各級法院加以訓練跟監督其實我們相關於就是裁定的這些那個原本還有正本的那個製作那個不只是刑事訴訟法就是其他的司法院所頒的這些那個刑事審判記錄業務注意事項這些其實都已經有非常詳細的一個規定了"},{"start":4660.712,"end":4685.462,"text":"所以複密署長您是覺得這樣一個情況這目前整個系統是除了這個個案沒有其他的問題的可能性還是說也有可能如果有可能本席這邊提出來的就是一個系統性的建議所以如同剛才我所講的假設有那是不是請你們就這一些案件去做一個系統性的了解跟分析然後相關的這個統計數據可不可以也去做一個整理"},{"start":4686.756,"end":4708.068,"text":"司法院可以來做這一份那個 就是做這個分析啊那如果如您剛才所講的 您覺得這個相關的這個SOP是OK的 您也藉這個機會來檢視一下 那我們整體是不是在這樣子的事件上還有再進一步跟大家宣導監督的一個必要性這是我一個建議 好 謝謝委員好 謝謝副秘書長 不好意思我再用一點點時間那法務部 不好意思 部長"},{"start":4715.046,"end":4730.403,"text":"好那剛才本來是有三個議題啦那我現在就進行第二個議題那第三個議題因為時間關係我想改天我們再來做一個處理那針對法務部這個議題我想這很多委員都關注的也就是詐欺犯量刑過輕的這個問題"},{"start":4732.31,"end":4752.592,"text":"所以這一直是社會的焦點所以我們基本上是希望對現行法制跟量刑實務沒有辦法反映社會對詐欺犯詐欺嚴重性的一個問題所以本席這邊其實要提出來本席其實也提了一些法案所以民眾在目前"},{"start":4753.593,"end":4773.822,"text":"被詐欺所影響的直接或間接的狀況其實是非常嚴重的那我們知道整個詐欺罪你們的統計在2017年到2021年詐欺罪確定的大約有7萬人然後被判處6個月以下的大概佔了43%那3年以上的徒刑"},{"start":4774.662,"end":4796.017,"text":"大概不足1%大概差不多只有355人那這樣的數據很令人憂心顯示現在量刑好像沒有辦法針對其對人民的危害而有一些實質的反應所以現行的刑法第339條對於一般詐欺犯涉的五年以下的徒刑而且還可以一顆罰金"},{"start":4799.139,"end":4807.815,"text":"感覺好像沒有辦法有嚇阻的作用因為詐欺本身是高報酬低風險的違法行為模式那現在詐欺案件屢見不鮮"},{"start":4812.217,"end":4836.386,"text":"應該是有一個制度性的漏洞所以大家現在能夠比較提出來的實務性操作就是加重詐欺罪所以在刑法第339條之四現在僅設一年以上七年以下的徒刑那對於網路還有冒用公佈門現在詐欺這種個人又變成一個集體行為甚至利用AI這些很難辨別的假訊息他的整個處罰實在過輕"},{"start":4838.707,"end":4866.324,"text":"那上次其實詐欺本席上次也提到但是法務部這邊提講的大概就是比較前端的有關於警政系統但是我想後端的阻嚇作用是非常重要的所以包括本席還有很多委員都對刑法第339條的之三跟四提出一些修正草案將一級的詐欺罪提高到五年以上十二年以下的徒刑加重詐欺罪者"},{"start":4867.285,"end":4892.288,"text":"無期徒刑或七年以上情節重大者可以到十年以上這樣明確回應社會對打擊詐騙的高度期待那凸顯我們目前現行的量刑跟社會的現實有一些脫節因為整個統計數據來講輕型化的趨勢就越演越烈那現行的法定刑責跟量刑"},{"start":4893.109,"end":4917.629,"text":"的適當性讓大家很疑慮所以不知道部長您是不是同意本席剛才所談的這個量刑謝謝委員的一個指教那的確是那個詐欺罪是讓全民共憤這是全民公敵那輕判的這個問題事實上外面的確是整個房間的確是有相當的質疑"},{"start":4918.089,"end":4946.168,"text":"那這部分以現行來講我們也這個這個刑法的這個是不是過輕這個跟委員報告這個在去年的7月31要施行的詐欺危害防治條例事實上在第42條第43條裡面他有換刑法339之4剛才我有提到39之4的這些的如果詐欺達到500萬就3年以上10年以下的一個刑度如果都超過1億的達到1億的"},{"start":4948.389,"end":4960.735,"text":"是五到十二年那這邊還可以併科三億三億以下的一個罰金事實上去年就已經對這部分有做一些我們過了詐欺司法裡面這邊明確的針對犯罪行為跟刑期都有提高那44條裡面就是剛剛3394裡面的那些只要以一個複合型的這是有兩個的話就是"},{"start":4976.562,"end":5002.093,"text":"就是在那個有蝦類就是有這樣有複合型的這些的詐欺的行為的話是再加二分之一那如果在這發起主持操縱的這些這些詐團這些領導的這些人這些是處5到12年的一個徒刑並克3億以下的一個罰金那另外這個事實上這個是全方位的另外這一種的話在50條我們檢查可以具體的一個酋刑那我們現在"},{"start":5005.875,"end":5026.121,"text":"也發文給檢察官就是如果有詐欺危害防治條例相關的這些的加重的這些比較重的這些的詐欺犯刑我們是請檢察官要具體的一個求刑那我想這樣可以遏阻這些詐欺的這些的這些的這犯刑我想也受到一些的一個成果"},{"start":5027.061,"end":5050.76,"text":"那部長所以本席這邊除了您剛才這個我們也談到修正的本席這邊所談到的五年跟十二年還有無期徒刑或七年這個部分您是不是針對本席現在所提出來的相關的法案然後還有您剛才講的我們去年通過了打炸四法做一些分析然後參考本席這邊談到的情節重大者的一個"},{"start":5052.302,"end":5077.261,"text":"處罰跟罰則做一個相關的分析然後我們再來比較那去年的這個部分跟今年很多委員包括本席所提出來的法案那其中的對詐欺的嚇阻的效力是不是再做一個更進一步的分析跟檢討我們再用數目的資料再跟委員給委員來做一個報告不要忘記本席這邊也有提出無期徒刑的這個刑責是我們再做一個分析好的好謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":5089.413,"end":5097.02,"text":"那我們下一位請王逸川委員發言王委員那個部長有事要先離開"},{"start":5114.67,"end":5119.192,"text":"請法務部跟這個司法院麻煩次長跟副秘書長我也好這個副秘書長好請問一下這個我們這個科技載具啊按照你們的報告啊大概分為這一個四大類這個手環腳環個案手機跟這個居家讀取器"},{"start":5143.786,"end":5162.661,"text":"按照你們的了解,這四個裡頭,曾經被破壞過的最多的是哪一種?報告委員,據我們了解是手機手機?手機,是好,那手機這個是法務部買的"},{"start":5164.675,"end":5179.725,"text":"目前我們四年來發生一個最具體的個案是剪斷腳環的部分手機的部分當然它是因為是一個消耗品大家容易消耗沒有錯那具體的破壞的話破壞這個載具的部分是腳環這個是很高科技的"},{"start":5180.365,"end":5206.843,"text":"就是品質不容易好是不是?還是怎樣?它為什麼那麼容易壞掉?其實也不容易,因為四年來就沒一次,但後來我們也做一些補漏啦所以目前為止就沒有再發生有關破壞對我們這個腳環的部分再進行破壞了好,那現在有使用這些科技監控的這些設備啦這個最近這一兩年有沒有人明明給了這個東西,後來他忍不見了?"},{"start":5209.568,"end":5237.263,"text":"委員你講是說載具它脫陶的嗎對所以什麼載具做脫陶它就是目前沒有啊載具戴腳載具做脫陶的對沒有就是說它只要戴在手上戴在腳上目前比較具體個案它是沒有具體實行科技監控而後逃亡的好所以現在只要戴在手上戴在腳上它任何的移動在高檢的那個中心都看得到"},{"start":5239.383,"end":5265.417,"text":"當然除非他因為他畢竟是一個科技設備他有收訊的問題除非他是因為科技設備本身收訊的極限他有可能會有一些好那為什麼會有收訊的極限呢因為他有住所嘛對不對那他今天跟你們講說我今天要去看病他要跟你們講嘛我今天要去哪裡剪頭髮要跟你們講嘛那不在原來設定的"},{"start":5267.158,"end":5274.19,"text":"範圍內的系統就會警示嘛應該是這樣對不對那他一離開你們的範圍就警示"},{"start":5275.387,"end":5303.382,"text":"那所以他脫逃的機會真的不高是吧?顧問報告他現在其實不高啦那除非就我剛才講他畢竟是一個高科技設備他有一個搜訊的視角但是我們會我們在當然這是一個我們不能對外公開我們有一些方法去防治他另外還有一些複合式的科技方法去監控他當某一種科技搜訊不好的時候還有其他的補救的方式去做補救那我舉比較極端的例子他就說我要住在山上啊那你就沒搜訊啊"},{"start":5305.261,"end":5327.68,"text":"當然他要做在哪裡是檢察官法官在做科技監控設備的時候給他的一個指示他不能夠自行來決定的是檢察官法官決定的這也是就是說這也是不羈押他然後給了這個地點檢察官或法官覺得可以那是檢察官命他應遵守的事項那最近當然有這種什麼"},{"start":5328.772,"end":5355.748,"text":"靠近海邊 靠近港口嘛那這個說是什麼因為要去看病會經過那裡嘛後來這一位就被就被羈押了 對不對這種案子常見嗎當然這個具體個案是檢察官法官去判斷啦當他靠近了這個告警範圍的時候那檢察官或法官要去判斷這個時候他有沒有逃亡的可能性就是說具體個案檢察官法官要去判斷可是他"},{"start":5356.735,"end":5382.667,"text":"他應該也沒有跟檢察官或法官講說他會經過那個路徑嘛我們在給他設定的條件的時候他就不能夠接近告警的範圍啊他就檢察官在設定條件的時候就會告警他不能夠譬如說他有被限制出境出海他就不能夠靠近那個港口機場跟海岸線那有沒有這種帶這些科技這個監控載具的人啊他就是白白白白啦"},{"start":5383.922,"end":5396.966,"text":"他的罪其實也不重,然後呢也沒有羈押的必要那他就這個法官或檢察官就說那你就帶著這個,那他也同意也住在他家他沒事就玩一下跳出這個範圍,就叫一下,然後這個請證書,這些員警們就嗶嗶嗶,然後就要去看他一下"},{"start":5406.876,"end":5429.217,"text":"這種案子多不多各位報告他其實科技監控有一定的機制包括提醒或三級告警的機制他有逐漸的提升他的告警的這個層級所以他在個案發生的時候我們的監控人員會去判斷他提升到哪一個層級的告警機制我們會反映給甲官或法官做具體的判斷並不是說一有告警就馬上要去測他的監控"},{"start":5429.777,"end":5452.484,"text":"我是說會不會到最後這個人,因為他白目嘛,沒事就這樣玩一下,然後到最後就變狼來了,然後大家就鬆懈了?事實上我們監護中心會不斷地打電話跟他監控啦,甚至提醒他如果真的有惡意,或者相關的疏失行為,會提醒他當再犯到某一個程度的時候,他就會把告警的層級往上提升,他高度逃亡可能性再做處理"},{"start":5453.124,"end":5481.806,"text":"市長這個在報告裡頭提到說高院參訪了之後有給了一些改善建議對 去你們那個中心那具體的改善建議有哪些可以讓我們知道當然就是告警的觸發我們現在告警觸發會接下來產生一些相關的通報的問題會導致檢察官法官他不願意使用因為像主委委員剛剛所提的如果頻頻的觸發那個告警條件的話檢察官法官他可能三天半夜就會受到影響"},{"start":5483.046,"end":5500.862,"text":"也許他危險性就不高他逃犯風險也不高但頻繁的觸發這個告警條件的話會讓使用者就是說甲冠法官不願意使用所以在參訪的過程當中很多人就反映說這告警的條件是不是要再做一些檢討所以我們後來我們就對告警觸發的條件我們做一些檢討第一個"},{"start":5502.523,"end":5528.169,"text":"處罰之後接下來要通報通報的程序要不要做簡化以前你通報程序太複雜檢察官法官太不願意使用所以從前端的告警處罰條件的優化跟後端告警通報做一些簡化讓檢察官法官願意使用這套系統所以就有可能這一個當事人住所附近的派出所或分局就會有一個同步的事情嗎那這個"},{"start":5529.429,"end":5556.035,"text":"因為到時候實際上要真正去看的應該就是員警了對吧這倒是不一定啦 但個案的時候倒是有檢察官法官去決定要如何的監控這一個被告他也許如同委員講的 會叫員警可以我們辦法的規定 員警就可以去處理也許我們法警 我們地檢署或法院法警也可以去處理這是具體個案法官檢察官去判斷對 那這些員警啊"},{"start":5557.146,"end":5581.573,"text":"因為我看這個警政署的報告裡頭他們也蠻支持這個案子的那支持這個案子可是我真的看起來如果這些人真的有白目的我們這些員警也會疲於奔命各位報告所以我們現在另外有科技監控有一種叫做電子報道的模式他就透過個案的手機拍照或定位你就不要到派出所去報道了"},{"start":5582.358,"end":5604.59,"text":"那減少我們進行遠景的人力的負荷所以在整個科技社會監控方我們有做一些優化了那報告裡頭也有提到這個夜間就提到說這個夜間因為他在原來的居所他住的地方這個逃亡的機率可能比較小之類的所以那個警示的層級就往下降是不是"},{"start":5605.53,"end":5626.349,"text":"這是什麼概念他是一些告警的程序跟警示他做一些處理我們搭配其他的因為我們的科技監控有很多譬如說居家讀取器或相關東西他就會用其他的方式去代替監控不一定一定要使用觸發告警我們現在有一些個案手機其實我們就可以知道他的所在地了"},{"start":5626.829,"end":5641.554,"text":"他有些車雖然觸發了告警但是我們用其他的搭配的科技方式知道他的確沒有離開他的入所地這時候我們也不要去進一步到三級的告警機制去做處理來打擾甲官或法官OK好那"},{"start":5643.706,"end":5658.296,"text":"最後我再問一個 那過去曾經搞過這些破壞他們的大概是哪一類的人就是說什麼刑期啦 或什麼有錢的啦 還是什麼年齡的啦大概是哪一類的人機會比較高"},{"start":5659.196,"end":5687.813,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛跟委員報告就是目前四年來唯一一件他是有破壞繳還的那個個案唯一一件啦齁但那個個案本身因為他在我就無方無法對講但是這麼一件所以統計上還沒有辦法給給委員一個統計上的一個一件所以無法統計好了解謝謝好謝謝王委員那下一位我們請蘇青泉委員蘇青泉委員蘇青泉委員好下一位我們請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":5695.438,"end":5714.098,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長副部長他10點去開會 所以 次長那就是次長還有警政署 副局長副組長"},{"start":5718.17,"end":5734.437,"text":"其實今天我們談的是這個鍾文智他的一個這個潛逃案那這個案子引起社會極大的震撼那大家認為說在台灣犯重罪怎麼可以這麼輕易的就逃跑"},{"start":5735.197,"end":5749.197,"text":"但是問題是只有中文制這一件案子嗎我們過去這一年多來可以看到在各個重大特別市屬於經濟性犯罪的"},{"start":5750.117,"end":5770.737,"text":"要逃跑很容易 非常容易尤其是經濟性的犯罪 而且我會發現說你洗錢洗得越多 你經濟犯罪金額越大然後逃跑越容易你看看一下 包含我們過去的台鹽董事長陳啟玉他也一樣 潛逃"},{"start":5775.219,"end":5804.149,"text":"而且他在國內耶應該看起來是在國內而到目前為止也不曉得 從來都沒有交代他逃國大概一個多月他到底在哪裡他曾經潛逃在哪裡哪些人幫助他潛逃到現在沒有任何的跟我們社會沒有任何交代喔他不是跑到泰國 他不是跑到大陸他不是跑到其他東南亞國家喔他在台灣喔有交代嗎 沒有交代好 再來"},{"start":5805.43,"end":5821.169,"text":"過去的 88會館 郭哲敏 但他後來是從泰國引渡回來也是一樣啊 1億元交保 看起來好像1億元很高對不對對不起 對這些經濟犯罪的人根本不算什麼 他照樣的潛逃出境"},{"start":5824.093,"end":5841.482,"text":"再來朱國榮一樣是如此氣飽潛逃然後我們起訴了這些相關的人但是人還是跑出去了是不是朱國榮也是大家眾所矚目的經濟性的犯罪的案子"},{"start":5842.262,"end":5849.588,"text":"好 再來百億賭王林秉文說跑到洛杉磯還有我們還懸賞金 就是懸賞他就在林秉文不但跑掉而且極為囂張還在他的臉書來嗆立法委員嗆徐曉新委員"},{"start":5861.517,"end":5887.848,"text":"後來被大家就舉國化然啊怎麼會有這麼囂張的這樣的已經潛逃出去還可以用臉書來嗆立法委員後來他只好關閉臉書啦其實他嗆的不是立法委員他嗆的是我們的政府他嗆的是我們的司法司法尊嚴掃地所以我請問一下我們幾位長官我剛才講的從鍾文智 陳啟玉"},{"start":5889.369,"end":5906.546,"text":"郭承敏 朱國榮 林秉文都是短短的一兩年發生的事情他不是十年前發生的事所以請問一下我們的院檢 我們的警方到底出了什麼問題誰可以給我回答市長這麼多的案子"},{"start":5914.386,"end":5934.323,"text":"我知道周文智當然他的責任在院方這個是比較明確的很明確你們也做了處置可是這麼多案子你們給社會什麼樣的交代呢各位報告這涉及到法律面跟實務面執行面的問題在法律面的部分的確除了羈押制度之外其他的替代處分我們必須要強化"},{"start":5935.504,"end":5956.476,"text":"比如說我們今天的主題 羈押的替代處分適宜電子監控這法例面我們具備之後 實務執行面必須要檢察官法官他要多多的使用這些羈押替代處分所以我們把科技設備 科技相關的措施把它優化之後讓檢察官法官他願意使用它是一個科技輔助被告 避免他逃亡的方式那市長我請問一下 我剛剛講的這些當時我們有沒有用電子監控"},{"start":5961.038,"end":5975.755,"text":"各位報告有些事像陳菊的個案檢察官在申請後來是院方是沒有准科技監控所以我的意思就是說我說我們今天是有檢討就是我們電子監控這個制度是在的工具也都在的"},{"start":5976.715,"end":6001.289,"text":"只是不管是檢方或不管院方他要不要使用他即便使用的時候他什麼時候給他解除了解除的程序出現什麼樣的問題我想今天我們要討論的是這一部分可是我要說的是我們對一般的小老百姓老實講我不知道欸有時候我看到的我就認為就是政府啊怎麼讓精英犯罪那麼容易逃跑啊我認為的就是司法單位啊"},{"start":6002.069,"end":6030.202,"text":"所以這方面我們已經發函通靈我們全國的檢察官在符合羈押的要件之下當然要申請羈押如果當法院不支持的時候我們要依法來提醒綱告那相關的第一代處分我們在審查中審理中都要積極的主張好 所以未來如果院方不願意採取電子監控或者在中間的過程裡面突然的解除了電子監控檢方一定會有正面積極的動作是嗎"},{"start":6032.506,"end":6052.37,"text":"當然我們剛剛已經跟委員報告在審理中我們已經邀請檢察官在符合特定的狀況之下要積極的主張電子監控那如果說他撤銷不撤銷或者變更我們才一定送給我們我們要積極的符合條件之下要積極提起看告好那請來我們司法院副秘書長可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":6054.938,"end":6072.038,"text":"這個部分確實就是說是否那個裁定羈押或者說使用什麼羈押那個替代處分這個部分是涉及法官那個審判那個人的職權那當然就是說法官做了這樣裁定之後那就是要接受那個社會那個公平"},{"start":6072.558,"end":6093.693,"text":"那我們司法行政端呢就是其實這幾年來我們也一直就是加強就是有透過各種會議加強法官那個賠利就是對於這類那個案件的那個敏感度那還有就是畢竟就是說真的在符合這種就是有那個犯罪嫌疑重大或者是已經判了重罪之後呢"},{"start":6094.935,"end":6117.664,"text":"最有效的就是說不讓人跑走保全那個執行或是保全審判真的最有效就是羈押嘛再來的話他的替代處分確實使用這種科控他是有效的那所以我們這幾年呢我們也都就是鼓勵那個法官他去看看那個整個那個科控設備還有就是來參加這些那個研習讓他們了解說實際上這些是怎麼個那個運作的"},{"start":6118.704,"end":6139.89,"text":"對 那這幾年 黃明書長我跟你講這一次真的是會讓大家對於我們的司法對於我們的法院真的大失所望所以我希望包含我們院檢之間怎麼樣來做合作我剛才講了這麼多例子有些其實有些甚至事實上在檢防也不是在院防只是對我們一般民眾來講為什麼會覺得這樣的重大的經濟犯罪就這麼容易的這個逃跑"},{"start":6145.831,"end":6146.674,"text":"那個我請教我們的次長"},{"start":6150.971,"end":6169.061,"text":"過去重大的選舉 我們都有選舉專案不管是 很多是全國性的選舉 即便是縣市長選 九合一選也是一樣那我們這次的罷免事實上也是全國性的 雖然不是每一個縣市所以過去我們對於選舉專案 當然有幾個重點查會選 查賭盤 查造謠 對不對"},{"start":6176.425,"end":6199.014,"text":"可是我覺得到目前為止我沒有看到耶而且呢我們現在很多的造謠幾乎是漫天蓋地而且是無邊際的甚至我們很多的政府高官都加入造謠的行列以來助長這個罷免好 那我要問的是請問一下現在以你們所掌握的"},{"start":6199.835,"end":6208.633,"text":"現在在罷免已經沒有地下賭盤了有嗎這個涉及到具體個案的情節各地檢署他都去掌握了他不會報到我們法務部"},{"start":6211.54,"end":6234.352,"text":"我沒有問任何個案我說有關於罷免的部分有沒有出現地下賭盤了你有沒有掌握各地檢署他一定會去掌握不是我法務部來掌握各地檢署他本來就我希望你們做我不是現在沒有在問你任何個案我王輝被罷免吳思堯委員也被罷免我沒有問你吳思堯有沒有地下賭盤王輝有沒有地下賭盤我只是問你"},{"start":6235.192,"end":6244.316,"text":"在這次罷免裡面有沒有出現地下賭盤來助長或者試圖去影響選舉我在這邊做具體的要求因為過去我們的重大選舉都會有這個專案我剛剛講嘛 查會查地下賭盤 還有查造謠好 再來看現在的罷團的造謠我為什麼講 已經到無法無天的狀態我自己個人 這幾天啊"},{"start":6263.883,"end":6271.325,"text":"我也不想去新送 我也不想去說一直佔用司法資源但是呢 這個造謠已經到了極度的過分的狀態比如說假冒我的一個社群平台 假冒我的身份來發文說我就是 我是中國人 然後呢 我故意要搞亂台灣反正沒關係 把台灣搞爛了 我就可以去中國了"},{"start":6288.949,"end":6303.534,"text":"這個造謠這個假冒從今年初我就已經去提告然後我也澄清結果立刻這兩天再拿其他的造號繼續的來做無所謂所以現在的造謠是怎麼樣我過去我的選舉經驗算多的吧"},{"start":6312.297,"end":6334.505,"text":"我們過去也沒有到這樣的一個腐爛性的而且已經被澄清的 已經被那個什麼甚至已經被提告 繼續拿來 無所謂來 再來最近又跑出來說 我到市場說人家不跟我握手 我罵人家無恥我作為一個這麼久的政治人物請問在市場 我怎麼會去"},{"start":6337.786,"end":6355.495,"text":"罵人家說你不跟我握手 我就罵你無恥市場這麼多人啊 不會引起群星激開嗎所以 這樣子的文不但自己在那邊發文 自己製造然後還有直接 我這邊直接點名自由時報記者在凌晨深夜一點多來發這個"},{"start":6358.952,"end":6380.301,"text":"來發這個完全這個沒有任何事實根據 也未經查證的請問一下我王蕙薇是美國股市嗎現在可能要凌晨發文的就是川普白宮有什麼發布 關稅有什麼發布昨天最新的訊息 或者美國股市怎麼樣已經到這種造謠無極限了 好再來"},{"start":6382.632,"end":6409.188,"text":"來下一頁 那你以為只有王宏威碰到嗎其實還有非常非常多的 造謠的團體 比如說我們過去的葉元芝這個委員 說他服務處沒有開門這樣的完全沒有界限的 在無法無天的造謠所以我要講的是 罷免其實形同我們的一個重大的選舉"},{"start":6411.506,"end":6431.104,"text":"選舉罷免 選舉罷免 互相的嘛我承認我們現在罷免有很多的一些相關的 它的法令是不足的比如說有關於政治獻金的部分甚至它的起跑日 到現在為止因為我們都第一次罷免 我們都不是非常清楚但是 既然我們都進入了二階其實就已經進入"},{"start":6435.844,"end":6453.217,"text":"選舉的狀況了所以我剛才講這麼多的這些造謠跟罷免所以我希望我們相關單位警政署為什麼也請那個警政署是對不起啊副局長是副局長副局長"},{"start":6454.87,"end":6471.404,"text":"所以我在這邊要求的是我們選舉罷免應該要有一致性的一個標準它不應該有兩套標準如果在選舉的時候不可以做的事情同樣罷免的時候也應該不可以做同不同意"},{"start":6472.985,"end":6486.83,"text":"我沒有讓你用兩套標準 是不是但是我知道因為我們這樣大規模罷免是我們真的是台灣第一次面臨到它幾乎已經是全國性的所以我在這邊要求我們"},{"start":6488.103,"end":6496.957,"text":"法務部要求我們警政署針對罷免的部分我剛剛說過去的選舉專案你們有加強查查我剛剛講說查會會選有沒有地下賭盤"},{"start":6504.283,"end":6527.759,"text":"這個賭博嘛 而且試圖影響選舉的結果 過去的地下賭盤其實它某一個程度都是在試圖影響選舉的結果好 還有這些造謠 試圖 我們說試圖使人不當選這個是試圖使人罷免而且完全 我剛剛舉的例子 都是完全無中生有的而這些都沒有辦法處理的話 請問我們算什麼民主國家嘛"},{"start":6528.769,"end":6542.389,"text":"我們算民主國家嗎所以拜託我們法務部還有我們警政署針對這一次的全國性罷免請大家用這個選舉的這樣的標準來做查查好不好可以嗎 市長可以嗎"},{"start":6544.862,"end":6570.856,"text":"首先跟委員報告啦在法律面我們就選舉跟罷免在我們選報法他是做同樣的同等的規範所以剛剛委員所提到的散佈謠言不時來影響罷免案的通過跟不通過跟我們選舉是一模一樣的刑罰處罰並沒有差別的待遇這法律面跟委員報告那執行面的部分當然這是檢警的天職那假如說在查查賄選或罷免案都會盡全力的來執行好的謝謝"},{"start":6574.209,"end":6597.064,"text":"好 謝謝好 那下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言有請次長跟副秘好 麻煩次長 副秘書長委員早安"},{"start":6599.176,"end":6623.813,"text":"我就先順著剛剛洪威委員所垂詢的那當然現在社會非常關注罷免的議題我高度的認同罷免比照選舉在既有的法律的秩序上有任何違反法律的事情就應當徹查跟偵辦但是前提是該告發當事人去告發嘛不是在這裡一直為難我們的官員們"},{"start":6625.95,"end":6651.621,"text":"因為今天站在我面前的不管是司法院的代表副秘書長或者是法務部的黃次長你們都不宜針對個案來表達意見你們更沒有辦法針對連提告連成為案件都沒有的案子去預作一些評判我們只能夠說如果有告發的話那我們當然敦促我們的辦案人員要嚴格嚴謹同樣的標準勿妄勿縱"},{"start":6654.722,"end":6665.171,"text":"所以我剛剛說呢 這個王宏威委員他一直在講造謠造謠我們現在的法律秩序如果你認為有人對你妨礙名譽毀謗可以怎麼做"},{"start":6667.962,"end":6683.423,"text":"當然他如果是犯罪的被害人我們按照刑事法規定他是告訴全人嘛那當然可以向檢察官或司法檢察官提出所以如果真的要捍衛個人的權益我奉勸王委員他該做的事他可以去告罰而不是在這裡一直來為難你們"},{"start":6685.325,"end":6710.902,"text":"而一直在為難你們我是覺得你們沒有辦法為所謂造謠不造謠尤其很多在政治上的言論的事情你們不可能在這裡做出判準你們也不可能在這裡進行評判嘛但都是就我個人而言我也是被鎖定惡霸的當事者我怎麼做具體針對北投士林已經有人明顯的來舉證他並沒有參與"},{"start":6715.785,"end":6735.541,"text":"罷免吳思瑤的連署但是他卻被重複的冒名而且是兩次我手上有好幾個個案因為有具體的個案我能做的就是捍衛我的權利我就具體的提告只要提告我信任司法"},{"start":6737.253,"end":6761.448,"text":"只要提告就讓司法在司法的制度上往前走我要說的是這樣任何捍衛自己的權益我們尋求法律的保護該提告就提告我非常反對在這裡為難官員逼迫你們回答你們難以回答的個案問題甚至他還沒有成為司法的案件因為當事人沒有提告"},{"start":6762.228,"end":6785.536,"text":"而我捍衛我的法律權益 針對偽造文書的匿名 冒名的連署我絕不寬待 我就尋求司法的偵辦這是我的態度跟立場 因為台灣是法治國家那回到今天的主題喔我想兩位應當都有看到全國律師聯合會的一個對外的聲明新聞稿"},{"start":6786.596,"end":6797.885,"text":"其實社會對於某一個個案違反政交法的這位中性犯罪人他居然可以潛逃這件事情當然讓人氣憤"},{"start":6800.038,"end":6822.135,"text":"這一粒老鼠使壞了一鍋粥賠上了司法的公信力這當然該怒啊但是權律會他們也提出該徹查還有制度上精進的一些建議但是我覺得有一句話他引用了英國前首相丘吉爾的一句話他說呢Never let a good crisis go to waste"},{"start":6823.228,"end":6842.619,"text":"千萬不要浪費了一個可以去檢視可以去改進的好機會要把危機化為我們制度精進的轉機所以夏業我就要問喔就一個個案來講我第一次看到劣勢裁定"},{"start":6844.475,"end":6861.643,"text":"你們司法院的報告書裡頭也寫說對於這樣子的用語於實務或學界並非通用啊其實你們還要容待探求它到底是什麼所以所謂的這個劣勢裁定是新生事物呢還是它是法界的陋習"},{"start":6863.868,"end":6881.659,"text":"第二个,从个案来解释通案,这整个事件到底是人为的疏失,还是我们制度产生了非常严重的疏漏。不要搞错方向,就我个人认为,这人为的疏失大很多啦。"},{"start":6882.816,"end":6897.57,"text":"就是何怡婷的法官 就查她嘛 就辦她嘛所以從言究則絕不寬待 是我的第三個主張就我這三個探尋 你們要不要綜合回應一下是次長還是父命"},{"start":6898.527,"end":6926.8,"text":"好 謝謝委員垂詢那我想第一個問題是今天報告的那個主題那我們可以講那個結論就是說裁定呢跟判決不一樣它事實上在我們事務界或者說刑事訴訟法它也是允許就是說它並沒有一定的那個格式像我們有時候羈押人的時候因為現場都很緊張嘛一個晚上值班的時候要處理一二十件那所以我們是可以直接用那個押票因為押票上面也寫了理由就是說為什麼羈押這個人"},{"start":6927.78,"end":6939.624,"text":"還有他的案情就是跟那個裁定要求這個內容其實是一樣的所以呢在最高法院94年第10次的那個刑庭會議呢他就很明白的講就是說這樣子一個就是說簡單的這一種我們講說不是很形式很嚴格的這種格式呢"},{"start":6948.466,"end":6971.095,"text":"這個是承認的 那其實呢 重點不是在說你用什麼樣的 什麼格式嘛 什麼形式是你必須要宣誓出去 就是說你要依法成立了之後 譬如說何怡婷已經平業之後 這時候內容已經裁定內容 法院的決定已經成立了嘛那成立了之後 依法 這形式訴訟法都規定了很清楚 我們"},{"start":6972.116,"end":6987.157,"text":"絕大部分應該是幾乎是所有的法官也都會踐行就是說這樣一個裁定一定要依法或者是當庭呢把它給宣示出去然後依刑事訴訟法50條把它寫在筆錄上那或者呢就是"},{"start":6988.544,"end":7006.066,"text":"如果不是先宣誓是先寫完一個裁定書原本的話那就是把它做成正本然後送達給那個當事人之後再公告就是這都是一個法定程序所以今天重點不是說這個格式有沒有寫了那個簡單而是說你要依照法定程序去做"},{"start":7007.528,"end":7021.525,"text":"謝謝複蜜您的說明給了您比較長的時間我並不是法界、實務界所以您的這些分享對我也是一個很大的學習但我要說的就是我覺得今天大家在質詢這個議題真的不要搞錯方向"},{"start":7022.606,"end":7047.864,"text":"不要搞錯方向就我個人來看 因為你們的報告寫了一堆我們現在的科技的防範的制度我們110年建構的在我們士林地院樓上二樓所建置完成的這個中心科技設備監控中心軟體硬體如何如何我認為制度有了 軟硬體有了而且不斷的去精進它"},{"start":7049.127,"end":7071.127,"text":"然後我們要做的是推廣讓更多的檢察官法官他願意他信任要採用這樣子的方式來作為羈押的替代作為對不對這是我們制度上去檢視我個人認為制度已經有了該有的軟硬體包括立法院該支持的預算還有所有的法規我們也都盡可能的健全了"},{"start":7071.647,"end":7098.762,"text":"但是從這個個案來檢視的話我認為就是嚴重的不當的司法的弊案的個人的行為嘛所以就是要從嚴究則絕不寬待是這個案子最最重要的事情如果就這個個案可以簡單的就這樣就這樣落跑了然後我們對於這個何怡婷的法官假設輕輕放下或是沒有清楚的去給社會一個好的交代"},{"start":7100.084,"end":7128.385,"text":"誰都沒有辦法接受那現在這個就責的程序進度到哪裡對於這個你們的評鑑報告委員那個在高院在3月31號做成的自律委員會決議要移送法評那在昨天呢也將這個申請書已經送到了法律那個評鑑委員會了是我們尊重評鑑委員會最終的結果但是就這個案子如果沒有一個"},{"start":7129.365,"end":7151.033,"text":"非常讓大家可以接受的最終的一個評判的結果我想他可能會引發更多的對於司法公信力的懷疑或者是政治的紛擾但我還是尊重這個評議會他們最終的決定那今天的這個主題我還是再次說不要畫錯方向"},{"start":7152.881,"end":7160.479,"text":"你們的報告都寫了好多然後我也覺得沒有錯啊你們現在做的法規面然後對於這個科技的這個監控"},{"start":7162.714,"end":7185.52,"text":"人為該做就是說軟體多少人執行然後你們不斷的去推廣遊說讓大家信任這個監控的系統願意去啟用然後我們的設置中心都已經建置完備了那我覺得在制度上的缺漏面我覺得相對是我可以比較放心我站在監督的角色但是對於我們法界存有多少這種"},{"start":7187.605,"end":7202.77,"text":"一顆老鼠屎的這種老鼠屎就要把它揪出來而且已經被揪出來的老鼠屎就一定要好好把它汰除好好把它做出一個從嚴從嚴的究責這是這個案子給我最大最大"},{"start":7203.51,"end":7222.843,"text":"我認為我一定要堅持的至於制度面該做的已經做了那我們就把它做更好我們就把它做更多Let's all好嗎所以呢邱吉爾的這句話千萬不要錯失了一個好的危機危機看起來是危險的是負面的但是從危機當中轉為為安"},{"start":7224.884,"end":7244.274,"text":"讓它成為一個制度的檢視或者是一個大家對於法律秩序的重新的理解我覺得這是有正向的意義的好 謝謝您 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那接下來我們先麻煩翁曉琳委員代理主席謝謝"},{"start":7264.801,"end":7267.785,"text":"現在請吳宗憲委員質詢麻煩法務部次長還有司法院副秘書長委員好"},{"start":7278.837,"end":7300.828,"text":"你好好謝謝兩位兩位早安我現在我們就直接提到因為我們今天的主題是蠻明確聚焦的所以我想說我的問題就很簡單啦我先請教一下司法院對於被告的電子監控不予延長的決定是不是需要下裁定麥克風要開謝謝"},{"start":7303.871,"end":7321.739,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為那個電子監控他是要下期間的嘛那理論上如果說是期間已經到了之後他不去繼續的話是不用下那但是我現在講另一個情形就是說那你本來要下為什麼不下了所以通常他就會"},{"start":7322.699,"end":7338.017,"text":"就有些他就會用其他的 譬如說加了那個保證金把你加保證金 然後去替代那這個替代是刑事訴訟法116條之一他依那個第二項 這叫變更處分那如果是變更處分的話 他就必須要下裁定"},{"start":7339.078,"end":7362.889,"text":"謝謝複密複密我們講到一個完全的本案重點因為這個案子已經判決確定所以我們來討論本案我想不會有干預個案的問題對不對我先講這個免得有人誤會了第二個 複密剛講得非常的正確就是說如果期限已經到了當然沒有問題但是本案我們不管期限是不是已經到了但是法官他有下一個加保兩千萬"},{"start":7365.052,"end":7373.712,"text":"他等於是變更嘛所以這個東西是不是就是應該要以裁定為之並不是期限到 兩個是不一樣的概念"},{"start":7374.782,"end":7401.3,"text":"我們不針對這個個案我們就是說假如說有一個情形他就是去把它加保然後去不再繼續延長的話那這個依剛剛講的這是刑事訴訟法161-1第二項的變更處變更處分那依刑事訴訟法121條確實他就是應該要下好 那我們如果說用通案的來看就是如果今天你是變更原來的"},{"start":7402.902,"end":7423.565,"text":"才決定嘛 就是提高的這個保證金的話其實它是要以一個裁定的方式為止我想這個從通案的角度來看是沒有問題所以其實我們都很清楚啦裁定大概我們依據那個訴訟法的規定其實它就是幾種嘛 用口頭宣示或是筆錄然後或者是說用書面嘛 大概主要是這三種嘛"},{"start":7424.245,"end":7445.161,"text":"對不對 就是刑訴的224條還有50條還有227條我想說226跟227我想這個非常的明確都有規範那但是呢像剛剛吳委員他講的非常的正確其實今天重點並不是說略是與否的問題而是說今天是到底這個裁定有沒有生效"},{"start":7445.922,"end":7465.009,"text":"因為法官雖然說他做的是一個劣勢劣勢裁定也不是說實務上沒有看過啦你很多積壓的處理他就是用劣勢裁定但是積壓的處理他這種劣勢裁定他至少會有一個譬如說當庭宣誓譬如說載名筆錄或者是送達等等這個方式嘛所以今天一定要有這個"},{"start":7466.429,"end":7483.83,"text":"結束之後才算是生效譬如說以送達來說好了總是送達第一個第一位收受送達者這個才定才會對外發生效力請問複密症我剛剛講的有沒有問題我覺得您是食物專家所以您講的完全正確也是我們現在食物上在做的"},{"start":7484.87,"end":7509.121,"text":"所以說 我想說本件的問題 我覺得我們就跳脫所謂的略是與否的這概念其實這跟本案其實重點 或是劃這個是劃錯所以其實今天這個裁定我們從頭到尾發現就是說他並沒有去踐行我們剛剛說的各種方式不管是口頭告知當事人 或者是筆錄記載或者是有送達 都沒有嘛 對不對"},{"start":7510.241,"end":7532.59,"text":"我想說這個案子有這個問題所以即使說就算說今天有一個書面裁定也不會說原本跟正本差了五個多月我想說我沒有看過這樣的裁定書或判決書五個多月是有一點誇張然後第二個就是說我也沒有聽說過請書記官製作原本這件事情不管院檢"},{"start":7534.079,"end":7546.712,"text":"原本基本上都是法官 檢察官所製作那署議官他是製作正本但是他不可能叫他去直接做原本去做裁定書或判決書啊還是 複密您的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":7550.082,"end":7573.094,"text":"這個個案我無從評論不是不是我不是說個案我現在說通案通案會請依規定就是那個刑事訴訟法相關的那個像五十條五十一五十五這些那個裁判說原本一定是由那個法院製作完然後簽名之後然後交給書記官製作正本對所以我剛剛講的就是這個對這是一個法定程序對不管是"},{"start":7575.075,"end":7597.58,"text":"原本就是法官或檢察官所製作他不會由書記官來製作所以說之前說什麼書記官沒有製作原本這個其實這個說法是蠻奇怪所以說這個第一個原本正本製作日期差了五個多月這是蠻奇怪的我們再看一下所以我覺得今天"},{"start":7599.754,"end":7623.414,"text":"我開頭會講其實就是程序的問題啦這案子就是程序的問題那我覺得從去年到現在發生了很多事包括比如說高煌案的案子那個檢方那邊有中斷16分鐘的錄音這個程序就不對我不論這些人是否構成犯罪但程序就不對那比如說柯文哲的案子偵查大公開啦然後起訴書穿插一些跟"},{"start":7624.395,"end":7652.127,"text":"構成了無關的事實 而且比例非常的高嘛然後讓很多政論名嘴可以拿去做文章或是說後來北檢發聲說 你明明就是去醫院就訓 但是你新聞稿前後兩次說的又不一樣所以其實這段時間會讓我們感覺說 那到底司法怎麼了 因為我們以前就是覺得說司法人員他應該是他對於自己道德的操守要求是非常非常的高所以"},{"start":7653.049,"end":7663.082,"text":"到底什麼時候發生 連司法人員都帶頭出來去說謊或者是有一些很極少數的司法人員 甚至配合的政治人物在那邊左右搖擺"},{"start":7665.46,"end":7685.691,"text":"我比較難過的就是說司法要建立起人民的信任他要花上百年幾十年百年的時間但是你要摧毀他可能幾個案子幾個月就摧毀這是我最不願意見到今天變成這個樣子就像說我昨天在這邊問一個非常簡單的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪"},{"start":7687.012,"end":7704.238,"text":"結果部長就是講了一堆根本無關的法條或是講公然侮辱跟誹謗其實那個就很奇怪然後陳廷長他也沒有回答我想說其實司法人員應該要有勇氣來去面對"},{"start":7705.979,"end":7722.954,"text":"任何權貴以及罪犯嘛就像很多人以前說警察官就提著人頭在辦案因為我們得罪的都是社會上面的黑道或者是權貴的人嘛那如果今天你在面對一個這麼簡單ABC的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪你都不好意思講的話那"},{"start":7723.895,"end":7737.399,"text":"這樣我們對司法我們的信任度真的會越來越低再來我想說這一次我們針對這個個案我們還發現一個狀況就是電話紀錄跟被抽換的問題從這個地方我們看到電話紀錄的抽換除了它增加了一個不予延長監控設備的記載"},{"start":7751.912,"end":7763.719,"text":"他檢查 他法官跟書記官還倒填了印章的日期我想這個司法院會認同這種事嗎這個章顯然是倒填的我想 請問複密"},{"start":7765.97,"end":7783.878,"text":"這個部分就是依行說法40條就是有關於這個那個公文書製作之後那個修改他事實上是有一定的嚴謹的那個程序那所以這一件我們先不談就是說那個內容的那個真實性與否就是這個程序上已經事實上是已經違反已經有違失了"},{"start":7784.958,"end":7803.591,"text":"所以說當然你說公文書原來製作有誤然後後面要修正絕對不是不行但是我們要進行一定的程序更不可能發生說你直接抽換而且還把日期一張倒回去概用印章我想這個是非常明顯的錯誤而且法官"},{"start":7804.591,"end":7816.371,"text":"做這樣的事情其實是很不得理這就是在等於是欺騙了嘛等於是對外就是欺騙嘛你在3月14號月券的版本都還出現舊的"},{"start":7818.291,"end":7831.524,"text":"的那個電話紀錄單上面有舊的日期章結果你在3月20號月卷的時候它的版本變成另外一個版本那個印章再怎麼樣都是稻田回去蓋的你等於是在114年的3月20號"},{"start":7835.228,"end":7862.376,"text":"倒田回去蓋113年10月14號的印章你等於是倒田回去 這很不應該啦所以麻煩治療院這邊也要詳細的了解到底狀況是怎麼樣那再來我想請教一下就你們審理的期間呢 就是需不需要確確那個拒保這個處分呢 有沒有送達檢察官"},{"start":7864.467,"end":7881.142,"text":"這個東西你們到底有沒有控管因為檢察官總是收到他才能抗告嘛現在這一件的話他從頭到尾什麼都沒有那到底院方目前是怎麼樣控管這個動作就法官如果有裁定那他送達與否這個有沒有人在控管這件事情"},{"start":7886.004,"end":7887.725,"text":"有本職在記載是不是"},{"start":7910.457,"end":7933.458,"text":"有本職在記載這些東西嗎不然你會不會有漏送啊或等等的狀況發生都會有案件記錄就是有控管就對了就是個案裡頭在電腦裡頭他都會有一個成案那更可以去了解說本案根本沒有裁定如果像您說的只要有裁定我們就會追蹤他有沒有送達那如果說照這樣看的話本案"},{"start":7934.079,"end":7951.589,"text":"就是沒有裁定啊如果有裁定你們會追蹤後面有沒有送達但本案從頭到尾都沒有送達過所以回過頭來看根本就是沒有裁定我想沒有裁定是一個沒有做出裁定書對我想這是一個事實啊您懂我的意思嗎您說有裁定你們就會追蹤有沒有送達"},{"start":7952.449,"end":7971.677,"text":"那這個本案自始至終都檢察官都沒有收到、送達過那是不是根本就沒有裁定他們有做成 這個合議題有做成一個決定可是是把它寫在那個審理單上 有這樣一個決定那只是這樣一個決定的話 我們廣義也把它叫裁定那只是說它完全沒有做成那個裁定書去送達所以這個部分就是你們控管不到的 對不對"},{"start":7977.591,"end":7999.591,"text":"因為他根本 他連寫都沒寫他就是沒有做成正式的那個裁定書啊 對好吧 那沒關係啦但是不管如何 我剛剛最一開始我已經提到裁定有三種那三種模式嘛 看起來都不是應該不會說記載在審理單就叫做裁定吧可以這麼說嗎可以說記載在審理單就是有裁定嗎"},{"start":8001.434,"end":8022.266,"text":"這個個案的決定因為可能還會有救濟的問題我想我們就不再回答那我想不管怎麼樣這些案子我們這樣看起來就是最近的譬如說朱國榮的案子還有中文字林秉永等等的這些案子其實就讓人民有個感覺就是好像權貴犯案都可以逍遙法外"},{"start":8023.727,"end":8047.34,"text":"我今天為什麼犯案會被押 那就是因為我不是權貴 所以我就有逃亡之虞所以讓人民會感覺到到底法院本來應該所有的人在司法面前都是一視同仁那是不是在面對權貴的時候就完全不太一樣所以我想說在這次的案子裡面 還是要麻煩司法院法務部這邊能夠想出一個對策 不能讓這種狀況再發生"},{"start":8050.629,"end":8074.108,"text":"那更何況 其實我們再參考一下中文字的案子前面那個紀法官 他多次對於這個被告他所提出來申請他希望出國等等的 他都拒絕那他其實他的裁定 我覺得我看完之後 我覺得他之前的裁定幾乎都可以當作教科書他寫得非常的完整 譬如說他有提到說"},{"start":8075.709,"end":8094.505,"text":"罪名非清然後原審判決很重還有他侵害的這些投資人的權益也很大還有他獲利非常的高等等的再加上這個人之前他有多次譬如說他有用假的資料想要出國或者是說他曾經也被通緝過"},{"start":8096.086,"end":8112.178,"text":"還有這些等等的狀況其實他都寫在他原本的裁定裡面他其實後面的法官很容易就可以依照前面紀法官他所調查的資料就知道這個人他有非常大的逃亡可能性那為什麼還會在之前有一次是律師出來"},{"start":8115.04,"end":8138.769,"text":"而說當作保證人那這個被告就可以出國去香港這個也很奇怪因為我以前審理案子的話如果這個被告他有這麼多的狀況我根本不敢讓他出境啊甚至他曾經被通緝過都會讓我不敢給他交保或者是不敢讓他出國的最主要原因那這個被告呢他"},{"start":8139.709,"end":8156.027,"text":"獲利這麼高的情況下他之前有很多不良的對於這個不按期到庭等等他有不良的記錄那為什麼還會讓他讓他後來還可以出國去開會還可以這個卸除他的電子監控設備這個都是我們覺得"},{"start":8158.629,"end":8180.149,"text":"很難以想像的啦 以我自己的實務經驗 我覺得這還難以想像但是法官總是獨立審判嘛 那我就不多說那我再請教司法院 高院現在有幾個金融專庭四庭請問一下 這次這兩位大家認為有問題的法官 他們還在金融專庭嗎"},{"start":8183.396,"end":8201.545,"text":"那個目前還在那但是應該是會即將要做那個調整因為那個庭長他現在已經那個免件庭長了對是好那我們這都尊重司法院的決定好那我在這邊就跟那個複密這邊就是說一下"},{"start":8203.185,"end":8219.418,"text":"這個金融犯的防逃標準可能要麻煩司法院再訓練就是說我們對於法官我們不能以一句說司法獨立法官獨立審判所以我不能跟法官講什麼這個沒有錯這是對於個案嘛但是對於通案的教育訓練司法院真的還是要"},{"start":8220.459,"end":8248.219,"text":"對於這個金融庭的法官要跟他們再教育因為獲利高他本身他就有足夠的經濟能力在國外生活他就如果那個量刑的刑度又高他就有非常大在國外逃亡到國外生活的動機所以這部分要麻煩您就像我禮拜一的時候禮拜一我跟這個次長跟黃次長我們去那個士林地檢的二樓就是那個"},{"start":8249.8,"end":8274.012,"text":"科控中心我們去考察的時候其實我當時也有說希望司法院能夠提出這些通緝犯前三大逃跑的理由還有出境的前三大案有還有棄保的前三大案有還有人數各式什麼那天我有請司法院要準備這些資料其實我準備這個我並不是說我要拿來做什麼用而是我希望這個資料完整之後給基層法官去做參考"},{"start":8274.692,"end":8297.503,"text":"有這些狀況前三大理由就是他們最有可能跑的我想這個我們就是要替人民做一件事情就是不能讓人民覺得權貴好像都有特權犯罪獲得很大利益之後就跑光光了那我們也希望說不要讓法官就是一直在象牙塔裡面沒有啦 就很多人民都覺得法官檢察官都活在象牙塔裡面"},{"start":8302.845,"end":8317.09,"text":"法官論壇其實有人就抱怨很多法官論壇就提到這次他講的這個怎麼會是這個劣勢裁定的這個說法其實就是被法官在法官論壇上面已經"},{"start":8318.01,"end":8339.864,"text":"就是攻擊蠻多的那這個其實我剛剛也都有講啦我個人從頭到尾都不認為這個是劣勢裁定劣勢裁定有但是在我們實務來說幾乎都出現在羈押因為羈押常常是很晚嘛很晚的晚上所以他可能有時候會用劣勢裁定但是不管劣勢裁定正式裁定等等的一定會有送達的動作這個我想大家都沒有什麼爭議啦"},{"start":8343.067,"end":8363.985,"text":"所以就是最近有些法官在法官論壇上面其實就是有在抱怨那檢察官論壇裡面也是很多人在那邊講說最近北檢等等的做法其實讓很多非北檢或甚至北檢裡面的檢察官也都有不滿所以為什麼司法會走到今天連司法官 法官檢察官自己都覺得"},{"start":8365.686,"end":8389.105,"text":"這些同事做法不可思議那就請大家要注意一下最後30秒我想說其實林三田教授跟陳定南這兩個是我一個是在學生時代對我最大啟發另外一個是在我出來當檢察官第一年的部長其實他們都告訴我們心中"},{"start":8390.902,"end":8404.33,"text":"黑白是非要放在前面立場放在後面我一直都這一輩子我都還是一直堅持堅守的這個信念那林三田的這本刑法通論啊他曾經對外說過說這通論的"},{"start":8407.659,"end":8435.649,"text":"書外皮是他設計的我想兩位一定都念過啦他說為什麼他設計這樣的外皮他的用色只有黑跟白因為他生前的時候講說他心中他對於法律以及對於這個社會運用法律的想法就是黑白而不是立場所以我很希望說我們全國的司法人員一定要記得這件事情像陳立南也是跟我們講啊心中是是非對錯而不是立場"},{"start":8437.581,"end":8461.23,"text":"我出來第一年的時候在當一個基層的最菜鳥的檢察官的時候他就親口這樣跟我講然後學生時代的03年他也是這樣跟我們講結果到今天我們看到司法人員也開始學著騙人開始學著發一些前後不一致的新聞稿我想說這都是我們自己要檢討的啦那這部分我希望司法院以及法務部能夠"},{"start":8462.47,"end":8481.255,"text":"很重視這個事情好不好就是說不管如何我們還是希望司法人員要當作人民最值得信賴的一群人絕對要記得法律跟制度一定要長治久安不能配合政客或執政者在搖擺好 謝謝兩位謝謝委員"},{"start":8495.556,"end":8514.134,"text":"我們先做會議宣告稍後叫翁曉琳委員請答完畢之後休息五分鐘現在我們請翁曉琳委員進行發言請司法院副秘書長 王秘書長麻煩副秘書長還有警政署"},{"start":8516.499,"end":8537.052,"text":"警政署的長官 林副局長嗎好副局長我想首先先請教司法院還有警政署就是針對目前在台灣的我們的通緝犯人數還有潛逃出境的人數有沒有做過統計通緝犯人數應該是會有數據啦那個會後我再跟委員補"},{"start":8546.425,"end":8547.547,"text":"通緝犯人數潛逃出境的人數到目前為止有多少"},{"start":8563.092,"end":8579.562,"text":"司法院有是不是這是司法院所那個發布的在那個113年發布通緝的是4128件多少4128但是這是司法院所發布的因為可能還有包括那個檢方這些我們就沒有列進來"},{"start":8580.322,"end":8607.377,"text":"是那我想說之後可能今天的質詢會後麻煩司法院還有警政署這裡都可以給我一些相關的數據比較精準的到目前為止那麼有多少的行蹤不明的通緝犯還有這個潛逃出境的人數因為可能這個通緝犯的人數我們也許在新聞上面可以找得到但是對於潛逃出境的人數其實並沒有特別的統計所以我本行想要了解相關的"},{"start":8609.018,"end":8626.111,"text":"數字所以請兩個單位到時候提供給我知道那麼還有另外就是我們知道其實現在實施這個科技監控雖然說案件數不多但是主要的犯罪類型是違和那麼這個部分不知道你們現在手頭上面有相關的數據嗎"},{"start":8632.264,"end":8633.185,"text":"對於目前實施科技監控的犯罪類型"},{"start":8641.792,"end":8660.203,"text":"在過去大部分都是以性侵害犯罪類型為主或是緩刑的那從近年來大概從113年之後因為整個實施科技監控的案件數明顯增加我想這個應該也是因為審計部曾經有做出一個報告說"},{"start":8661.764,"end":8673.552,"text":"我們雖然花了上億元去成立科技設備監控中心就在高檢署底下設置科技設備監控中心但是使用率偏低"},{"start":8674.915,"end":8678.837,"text":"所以我可以看到從110年到111 112年其實當時的案件數都不多大概從113年之後突然之間的案件數就提高比較多到目前為止大概就是217件但是事實上跟我們花了上億元去成立這個科技設備監控中心來看的話其實使用率仍然是不高那麼對於防範"},{"start":8699.686,"end":8712.678,"text":"被告的這個逃逸仍然是杯水車薪所以本席希望就是你們之後能夠給我提供一個比較詳細的數據就是實施科技監控的主要犯罪類型有哪些現在可以簡單講嗎我們現在這邊有那個報告就有個統計那個前三名其實是一樣的"},{"start":8720.825,"end":8731.392,"text":"是毒品危害還有違反銀行法跟貪污因為我們分得比較細第四跟第五是詐欺跟違反政交法所以總結來講的話其實大部分都是重大的經濟犯罪是 這個部分的話其實跟其他國家的做法比較不一樣我們參考像是韓國或是日本 德國這些地方當然德國基本上認為說實施"},{"start":8748.762,"end":8765.727,"text":"電子監控設備可能有嚴重侵害人權之虞所以他們非常審慎的使用那但是像是韓國等國家基本上都還是聚焦在就是以性侵害犯罪的類型為主或是有這種暴力犯罪但是台灣現在看起來反而是"},{"start":8768.249,"end":8775.422,"text":"實施電子療靠可能是在貪污或者重大的經濟犯罪的部分那麼這個部分的話本席是認為是不是有檢討的餘地因為實施電子療靠的"},{"start":8782.608,"end":8810.98,"text":"就是實施這種電子腳銬或是手環的這樣的一個去監控犯罪監控這個受刑人其實在過去都會被認為這是有侵害人權之虞而且它實際上它的監控效果如何我覺得這個基本上是應該要去檢討的那麼當然接下來本席想要請教就是說為什麼到目前為止我們的科控設備的使用率會偏低"},{"start":8813.735,"end":8832.379,"text":"就是如果說你們說這是涉及到重大經濟犯罪的話實施這個電子療靠可是以目前看起來的狀況我們其實台灣重大經濟犯罪案件非常之多炸漆罪等等的但是實際上目前開案的案件數是低的這是什麼原因"},{"start":8837.624,"end":8857.474,"text":"科技監控它是替代羈押的一個處分法官要不要使用這樣子的一個處分他需要考慮的事項很多譬如說他如果說是在一審或是說起訴了是涉及的犯罪的刑度是很高的或者是案罪情節"},{"start":8858.494,"end":8874.788,"text":"還有說對被告影響還有就是說他還沒有其他那些處分可以替代他考量那個事情非常多我們也必須就是說有些法官也許對於就是說這樣子的一個設備畢竟它是一個新的"},{"start":8875.609,"end":8896.864,"text":"整個流程不是那麼清楚所以我們這幾年來呢就是說司法院也很強力的就是在做這種賠利就是說一個叫雖然是法官的那個禁修那還有就是說開放他們讓他們到實際上去參觀這個整個科控中心怎麼個那個運作的讓他們那個熟悉這套制度的運作好是謝謝富米剛剛的說這個解說明喔那麼事實上確實目前我們"},{"start":8902.588,"end":8925.661,"text":"這個實施科技監控要考量的因素很多按照我們現行法官來講因為他並沒有像是韓國他是把聚焦在特定的罪行所以很多的案就是幾乎就是各式各樣類型的案件如果說法官認為有需要其實就可以實施科技監控但是這樣子的個案認定坦白說又可能過於寬鬆那麼本席是認為說司法院是不是應該要"},{"start":8927.001,"end":8954.408,"text":"去提出一個就實施科技監控的一個作業辦法或是一個實施的標準對於哪一些重要的犯罪類型可以國立法官們實施科技監控那哪一些其實是不必要的那麼因為我們知道其實像以這次柯文哲他這個雖然說涉及貪污的這樣的一個罪行但是畢竟他還是當時在羈押當中然後就懷疑他有串供之虞所以這個"},{"start":8956.088,"end":8968.532,"text":"施以科技監控而要戴上電子镣銬但是這個對於國人的印象來講會認為說這過去大家都認為是性侵害犯罪者然後才會實施電子镣銬那現在不管是柯文哲或是謝榮"},{"start":8970.906,"end":8994.671,"text":"這樣子一個情況固然可能他們或許有犯罪嫌疑但是有必要要去實施這個電子镣銬戴上這個電子腳銬嗎這對外界來講會覺得說就算是戴上電子腳銬好了這個有可能會防範他們會有串供之魚嗎因為我們知道現在其實電子監控的它的效果是有限的"},{"start":8996.13,"end":9023.929,"text":"對不對它的GPS的電子監控最主要的那個目的事實上就是防逃啊那跟串供這個地方對的那個一個目的事實上是比較沒有相關是那可是如果說以柯文哲案子來講的話會有可能會逃亡嗎也就是法官其實在對於這些個案的認定的時候坦白說我覺得確實是過於寬鬆然後完全是法官自己的心證他要怎麼做就怎麼做這是所以我認為說"},{"start":9025.51,"end":9050.576,"text":"司法院其實應該要召開相關的會議或是要負責任的提出相關的標準而不是說是給法官太大的空間然後去做這樣的一個裁定接下來我還要再談的一個就是說這次中文制的氣保潛逃案裡面其實可以凸顯出一個問題"},{"start":9052.136,"end":9081.385,"text":"就是停止監控的程序可能出現漏洞那麼剛剛幾個委員其實都有談到為什麼會出現有這個法官做了裁定但是他其實只是個審理單並不是個正式的裁定書所以至於在科技監控設備中心那裡可能就已經解除了相關的這個就已經解除了相關的電子監控那其實本席有看到"},{"start":9082.105,"end":9088.674,"text":"依照法院辦理科技設備監控處分之處理原則第六點裡面有一個問題就是"},{"start":9090.748,"end":9118.981,"text":"科技監控如果期間限滿而沒有延長的時候呢是必須要到科技監控平台去進行結案的可是呢在這個中間可能會出現有一個漏洞的程序就是法官或是書記官這邊做了裁定那可是他可能並沒有在時間上可能並沒有通知到檢察官這裡所以未來有沒有可能可以做一個double check的"},{"start":9119.821,"end":9142.987,"text":"的這樣的一個機制報告委員就是說您在這裡所揭示這個情形呢他是指說他訂了一個期間然後期間到了之後他沒有再那個延長那這個其實事實上都有各種那個機制事實上是會提醒這個法官說原來這一個時間已經那個已經快到了就是"},{"start":9144.088,"end":9160.27,"text":"有各種 我在這裡就不詳談 他事實上是有各種機制會通知法官是不是要去延長 那所以說像就是說那從法官再去通知到這個科技監控平台 因為這看起來就是書記官自己上科技平台自己去進行結案"},{"start":9161.513,"end":9184.144,"text":"因為法官他要決定要再繼續延長的話他就會再下一個裁定那他這時候如果說他沒有說要延長的話這時候就是命書記官會直接上這個科技監控平台去進行結案嗎因為他的時間已經到了所以本來理論上如果說他沒有再變更就譬如說用其他的處分去替代"},{"start":9185.845,"end":9205.975,"text":"甚至於有可能就是說那就直接回到其他但是在進行結案的同時會這個檢察官這邊會知道嗎檢察官這邊會不會知道當他進行結案的這個動作的時候他上網去填表有沒有一個double check機制就是說他同時這個結案的這個通知"},{"start":9207.165,"end":9230.302,"text":"那麼可以同時間就是去複製或是同時同步的讓這個承辦的檢察官因為原來在下這一個定期間的那個科控處分的時候其實這個裁定原來的那個本來檢察官他也會知道他會知道說這個期間是到什麼時候就已經那個時間就到了他原來就會知道的"},{"start":9231.537,"end":9242.473,"text":"對 但是大家不會一直會盯在那邊然後去算我一卡那至於說科控中心除了通知法院這邊會不會檢方這一段的話這個部分我可能就不是那麼清楚 對"},{"start":9244.122,"end":9265.028,"text":"總之就是說從周文智這個案子裡面也凸顯出整個法院的科技監控平台其實他可能並沒有一個double check雙重認證的一個機制如果說未來法院進行結案的時候是不是相關的資訊都應該同步的要告知這個檢察官那邊可以做一些"},{"start":9266.788,"end":9278.833,"text":"這個如果說他們到時候認為其實是要提起抗告等等的這相關的措施我覺得這樣的話或許今天鄭文智的案子就不會發生這當然就是我們在檢視相關流程的時候有發現這樣的問題本席也是就提供給這個司法院這裡做參考那麼可以將這個相關的流程"},{"start":9288.757,"end":9315.187,"text":"研擬的更細緻就是避免出現像是中文制的這個案子好那接下來我還要再請教的就是如果說今天這個違反了這科技監控規定的相關的就是受刑人如果說他違反了科技監控的規定那麼目前看起來是沒有任何的處罰的規定他只是又重新"},{"start":9317.876,"end":9330.587,"text":"這個就重新再被羈押譬如說我們以最近看到的遠航的動作張剛維那麼因為何怡婷收到就說科技中心的報告說他有七次都違反"},{"start":9331.328,"end":9333.449,"text":"這個科控規定的這個警示狀況而且看起來他就行進的路線有經過漁港所以法院又裁定羈押那當然張高為他那裡有他自己的說法那我們這裡就不再去就他這個說法來"},{"start":9348.676,"end":9370.062,"text":"來請教司法院但是我現在的意思是說其實GPS的定位一方面它可能會有誤差因為它會有飄移實際的位置跟GPS接收器所收到的訊號不見得會一樣那麼再說就是我們也看到韓國的例子韓國是之前它也是有個性侵犯"},{"start":9371.291,"end":9377.976,"text":"他洗滿出浴之後他回到他妻子的住處後來又發現說他佩戴腳鐐然後這個但是在夜間就擅自離開住處那麼最後這個警方檢方是以他違反了韓國的電子設備安裝法的罪名然後再給這個罪犯處以"},{"start":9392.686,"end":9416.784,"text":"一年有期徒刑還有罰款那麼簡單來說就是對於我們現在相關的法規裡面如果說是受刑人那麼他違反了電子腳鐐的等等的科技監控的規定除了就是再回去被羈押之外那麼有沒有可能要為了我們可以朝向修法還要再處以罰還或者是再處另外的這個罪名"},{"start":9423.122,"end":9447.799,"text":"這個部分應該是涉及廣義那個防害司法公正罪那今天下午就有個會議這個未來會朝下就是防害司法是是有個黨團協商是立法院黨團協商可是這會涉及跟防害司法公正罪有關嗎是的這事實上也是屬於這一個也是屬於違反法院所下的那個命令啊"},{"start":9449.907,"end":9455.193,"text":"所以包括如果說它有違反科技監控的規定的話都有可能會納入在妨害司法公證罪的類型裡面我想我今天並不是針對中文制的個案來進行詢問"},{"start":9469.048,"end":9471.63,"text":"而是廣泛的針對電子監控的相關的事情那麼從本席檢視相關的法規裡面也發現可能在程序上面還是有些漏洞那麼經過這幾個案例之後本席希望說司法院可以好好的"},{"start":9485.521,"end":9501.234,"text":"去檢討未來是不是應該要修訂相關的辦法那麼甚至如果對於這個妨害司法公認罪除了罪之外是不是還可以科處其他的罰金那麼甚至如果有可能是當成是一種特別行政罰款來處理"},{"start":9502.515,"end":9531.207,"text":"那麼這個部分的話就希望司法院可以通盤檢討好 謝謝委員那麼至於本席要求的相關的資訊就是通緝犯人數 潛逃出境人數還有施以科技監控主要犯罪類型的資料也麻煩司法院會後再提供給本席那只是潛逃出境這個部分因為司法院不是主責機關所以我們沒有統計法務部嗎 還是警政署這裡現在是法務部跟司法院他們各自 潛逃我們也沒有我們就是通緝犯好 那就麻煩請法務部這裡提供"},{"start":9533.996,"end":9552.9,"text":"各位報告當然偵查中跟執行中通緝人數是可以但是潛逃境外的這沒辦法統計因為潛逃境外他到底因為什麼原因而潛逃境外我們是不同理解的他也許是非法的潛逃境外也許是他雙重國籍潛逃境外所以潛逃境外的確確人數是沒有辦法統計的但是目前在"},{"start":9553.28,"end":9569.005,"text":"以前到現在我們偵查中的通緝人數大概三萬多人累積了那執行大概一萬多人加起來大約五萬人左右的執行人數到這些數字我大概這部分都只可以提供給委員所以您說是非法潛逃到海外的對"},{"start":9569.685,"end":9598.682,"text":"人數你沒有辦法統計我們現在有通緝的人數但通緝之後他有可能藏匿在國內有可能藏匿在國外藏匿在國外他不是按照正式的通關程序出去的他也許是非法偷渡出境的他也許另外拿雙重國籍出境的所以這部分的話他沒有辦法確切去控管境外通緝的人數這個是沒有辦法的還是說可以就是這樣就是說就是你們目前手上可以知道的境外的通緝人數"},{"start":9599.602,"end":9628.206,"text":"就是不排除偷渡的這些可以這些數字你們是有的嗎我們盡量收集但事實上它是事實上它有事實上的困難是沒有辦法收集啦那我們盡量的收集看看就是如果說是可以有相關的數據的話還是請次長可以提供給我我想這不是機密吧這不是確定這不是機密嗎不是不是不過呢我知道你們現在很為難嘛全部都要經過行政院長核可是不是"},{"start":9629.505,"end":9653.361,"text":"是不是 本席最近也有向法務部請求一些資料你們有在報院長核可嗎坦白說我很希望卓榮泰能夠看到我每一份所知因為我發現他不是很認真也不是很用功的院長讓他了解立法委員所知的內容我覺得這是很必要的好 OK 不為難次長就先這樣 謝謝"},{"start":9659.101,"end":9681.414,"text":"卓榮泰那說法非常荒謬,絕對荒謬,然後院長要先審核立委要怎麼治療,破壞我國憲政體制而已剛剛有宣告休息五分鐘,不好意思,那我們就先休息五分鐘,耽誤大家時間,不好意思"},{"start":10116.786,"end":10117.99,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":10150.077,"end":10153.079,"text":"私法正義公平很重要更不能讓人民打不起官司我們最近訴訟的裁判費怎麼一下子漲那麼多委員可以給我一兩分鐘報告嗎"},{"start":10176.414,"end":10204.058,"text":"很多人在陳情欸你搞到人民都打不起官司你騙不騙騙這樣喔是好來一分鐘啦好不好短一點我再五分鐘你拿走一分鐘來像委員報告說第一個這個事實上是有法院那個依據的就是說法院是可以調的那我們法院端呢在民國九十二年調了之後二十幾年來這個是二十幾年來第一次調那因為我們收了裁判費之後就所有花了這些費用啊像"},{"start":10204.518,"end":10222.306,"text":"那個法官可能要出差就是或者是說這些那個時數什麼車費的還有最重要的這些油資事實上都是這些錢那20幾年來呢就是說我們就是這地方有有去查就是我們的那個消費消費者物價指數呢不管是油電或者是基本工資呢調漲的是17%到那個66"},{"start":10225.427,"end":10246.266,"text":"那我們這一次其實增加幅度只有一點那另外呢就是說這個其實在那個司法法制委員會也有那個也有就是兩度就是有在這裡公聽會還有委員也希望說可以那個主張增加那最後一個跟委員報告是其實整個制度的那個設計都有考慮到就是弱勢者因為"},{"start":10247.691,"end":10269.008,"text":"大部分的這些費用是一般人用的那但是就是弱勢者這有考慮到就是說如果說他們真的是攪不起的時候其實都有那個訴訟救助那最後那個事實上只是預爭就打贏的時候這些關那個費用事實上他還是有轉嫁謝謝委員給我時間報告其實這兩個陳情講的不是你剛講的一點這條太大點了你來我們看一下這個條文看一下這個條文你本來這個"},{"start":10279.386,"end":10293.221,"text":"第77-2對不對77-2你這個最大條譜就是三就是那個二分之一嘛蛤對啦不不不我說不是啦我說你這個條譜來上個條文給那個給富民看一下上個上個條文對沒有錯77-277條是27嘛齁"},{"start":10297.182,"end":10321.717,"text":"本法應徵收之裁判費 各高等法院得因這是有授權給你沒有錯 你看但其加徵的這個數額不得超過原額數的十分之五 對 二分之一嘛你這本 用最上線這條欸跟委員報告 對不對而且那個是最普遍的人 對不對最普遍的人 我給你看 因為你已經用了一分鐘 我給你看一下了 來"},{"start":10323.291,"end":10341.986,"text":"已經十萬塊以下的 已經十萬塊以下的原裁判費是一千嘛 對不對你這邊要跳幾元錢 這個拉得太大了如果是一百萬的 以前要花一萬九百塊喔你現在一下跳到一萬三千兩百塊錢那如果是一千塊的這個標的十萬 一下跳到十一萬八千五百塊錢這個幅度真的太大了啦"},{"start":10350.865,"end":10375.271,"text":"不是你講的一點啦太太點那個忽密抵紮最近有引起一個很大爭議就是那個進口那個3C產品750塊之亂有沒有是是你這樣下去也是變成會是一個新的750塊之亂啊現在是很多陳情說調太高了啦我覺得有沒有750塊後來就連行政院長都出來踩煞車嘛對不對NC也踩煞車我覺得適度看用什麼方式這個幅度有機會可以稍微再調調價嗎"},{"start":10377.827,"end":10396.018,"text":"我可以再讓我解釋一下就是說其實我們那個所謂的那個調招十分之五有沒有這個只有在十萬以下的就是說小額那我們是希望說民眾因為台灣事實上使用那個訴訟的成本真的非常低我們希望民眾就是說他們有紛爭的時候他們可以想一下說"},{"start":10396.858,"end":10418.636,"text":"到法院來這是不是一個好的一個經濟的符合他們經濟的一個效益所以我們是把十萬以下這個地方就是做一個大幅度那反而是說像那個一千萬或者是說數額比較高的這個條幅都比較低啊就是因為那個十萬以下的最多嘛我給你看那個案件數你看一下這個影響的人最多啊對不對你對那個最多的人調的最大要嘛你就那個最高的人調高一點啦"},{"start":10426.078,"end":10429.583,"text":"10萬以下的這個建築占你112年的時候占你所有樹中縣市的41.24在111年的時候也是41點多"},{"start":10442.224,"end":10455.651,"text":"這比例是最大宗嘛結果你影響的人影響的人最多然後你調的幅度一二十二分之一那怎麼對 應該是對的應該是訴訟費用越高的人調越多啊是不是這樣啊結果你現在最多人的影響最大啊應該對的嘛"},{"start":10457.532,"end":10476.04,"text":"委員可不可以容我再說明一下因為這地方其實是有一個司法政策的一個考量因為台灣真的進入到使用訴訟的那個太容易進來了那事實上我們有很多的像我們有調解各種的那個機制可以使用那所以是讓人民呢就是說他在十萬以下就是說那個"},{"start":10477.581,"end":10499.037,"text":"就是說這一種標的不是很大的他可以去想一想這叫什麼以價自量你應該對於如果有爛數或者是扶爛去提的人你要有一部分那個機制去解決那一部分嘛因為那部分然後去影響到多數人對不對啊邏輯是不是這樣你邏輯應該比我好啊你耳環多了沒有"},{"start":10501.367,"end":10528.623,"text":"對啊 如果是你講的那部分那應該去處理那部分啊不要影響到最多人了啦我知道今天這樣問當然因為你已經開始實施了嘛很多人來請願嘛來陳情嘛這個結果弄到後來就是有些人就打不起官司嘛對不對是不是這樣那你應該適度我說我剛剛已經跟你講一個很重要的就是那個影響最多人那個你這次調稅都調二分之一五十趴嘛那錢也不多啊從那邊去做一個適度的調整好不好如果真的是金額很高的老蔣我也沒有太大意見"},{"start":10530.023,"end":10551.494,"text":"現在多數人啊 多數人那一塊 你再想一下好不好所以我具體的要求 來來看一看來我具體要求第一項我們來檢討這個裁判費的收費的這個基準適度去調降一部分我本來是要整體要調的 可是我今天很明確的跟你們講你針對那個比較 比較多的一般民眾會碰到的那個那部分做一個適度的調整第二個對於弱勢跟這個"},{"start":10552.634,"end":10578.259,"text":"低收入不法 平均所得比較低的訴訟費用你給一些優惠或者提供所需要的幫忙這你本來有在做對不對有在做是不是第二點 你現在那個司法院有在做這一塊嗎就是法律明白規定的訴訟協助制度 對會做嘛 OK好來 第三你應該是先請去做一些司法改革落實司法的爭議以後再來檢討這個裁判我剛才說你要答應啦你要調高之前要先去回去做自己的自己的檢討第四個"},{"start":10580.399,"end":10587.721,"text":"你不要變成是以價去質量你應該去檢討那個 如果有些人是爛數或者他剛剛跟你講的很容易進來 你是做一部分的處理好不好要再給你30秒嗎 可以嗎這4點你給我一個比較具體的回應好不好 來現在回應嗎要給你多少時間 你要帶回去檢討嗎"},{"start":10602.557,"end":10630.436,"text":"因為第一二項剛才已經有跟委員報告過了就是說司法院當時就是這個其實主要是高院高院的權責高院所那個調的啦那就是說當時的那些那個考量跟那個司法政策剛好跟委員報告過那委員就是有其他的那個指示的話我覺得這個部分我們是我們可以再做一些那個研議啊那至於說三四這個部分我想這是一個並行的沒錯就是說"},{"start":10631.116,"end":10645.891,"text":"我們怎麼樣去提供一個人民比較好的司法給付這個確實是我們司法行政一直就是我們應該要去做的事情這個我們也知道說我們一定必須也要更好的落實但是"},{"start":10647.185,"end":10667.807,"text":"台灣的那個司法資源其實不只是台灣全世界都面臨司法資源非常那個短缺那所以我們現在我必須為我們同仁說一些話就是說我們那個同仁就是過勞的那個情形不管是法官或是書記官都非常非常的那個過勞那所以呢我們也一直呼籲就是說我們的民眾當然他們有困難"},{"start":10669.088,"end":10690.555,"text":"國家必須提供一個司法給付這是應該的那但是也是希望說他們在使用這個的時候呢能夠真正很慎重的去那個考量那我想這個是一點那至於說那個爛數呢這個確實是我們一直就是一直有在做的那但是也許幅度我覺得還可以再更多的那個精進那也謝謝委員就是跟我們這一些指導"},{"start":10691.275,"end":10718.604,"text":"司法人員很辛苦啦普遍上水準也是很高啦這個你們應該有的預算我們會支持也幫你們加油所以不用客氣你們該有的要跟爭取我相信不是只有台灣民眾黨大部分的立委應該都會支持這沒有問題好不好可是老實講可是如果發生了司法院發生了像中文職這種事情臉上就無光了我知道你們也非常生氣啦我今天只有問兩個比較簡單的別的那邱宗義跟那個陳永松啊"},{"start":10719.673,"end":10735.483,"text":"你們除了把這個邱中義那個庭長拔掉之後你們說要開始要調查跟送評鑑對不對是這事情不能拖太久跟委員報告那個就是送法評的申請書在昨天已經送到法評會了"},{"start":10736.363,"end":10759.685,"text":"昨天送到法輪功那有進度現在全民都在盯著所以就是要快啦好不好不能夠拖延而且這個整個那個開過那個過程那個過程我覺得要不要比較對人民要是有一個比較清楚的一個說明不要不要人民現在擔心的是蓋牌啦或者不清楚啦那我們看最後最後一個Ending最近你有看到那個台灣民意基金會1月份有一個調查嘛"},{"start":10762.186,"end":10785.094,"text":"1月份的這個調查 超過49.2的民眾對司法是沒有信心的那你講 你在說什麼呢那你講說司法是皇后的徵抄嘛現在看起來有一半的人民對司法是有有些話的問號的所以中文字這個事情最近司法院碰到一些問題加快 加速 給人民一個清楚的交代 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10790.01,"end":10815.296,"text":"謝謝,那下一位我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員,鄭正前委員接下來我們請林岳勤委員發言好,那就麻煩一個月內,好謝謝,那我們請林委員"},{"start":10826.689,"end":10841.597,"text":"主席麻煩我們的法務部部長跟我們的矯正署署長部長他請假然後現在是次長好那就麻煩好次長還有署長好委員好"},{"start":10843.161,"end":10862.778,"text":"市長好 市長早市長在去年差不多這個時間我大概也是進來這裡質詢我們少年輔導轉弦的這個議題今天我要針對法部部回覆我的書面資料來進一步跟兩位做討論"},{"start":10867.263,"end":10879.814,"text":"這張圖我相信兩位都很了解要做好少年的輔導轉型我們需要跨部會的全面性的合作大家今天只有法務部我就只針對於我們部內跟署內的業務來討論那下一頁"},{"start":10885.366,"end":10904.885,"text":"首先我想指出我們逆境社工他的困境為什麼這麼講他說他孤立難遠難以落實他要做的工作現在我們在看接見制度實在是非常的不友善接見的方式不論是視訊或是窗口都無異於"},{"start":10905.686,"end":10920.319,"text":"第一線社工他在協談跟家庭的一個修復工作所以想問署長現在這四個矯正學校是否有規劃可以進行家庭工作的一個友善場域"},{"start":10923.251,"end":10947.985,"text":"因為我們四所矯正學校依照那個108課綱跟以往在還沒成立矯正學校的時候不太一樣所以他白天或許要有一些安排如果說有相關的社工可能要事先約定一些時間至於這個接見的場所我想我們四所矯正學校會盡量來配合"},{"start":10949.653,"end":10972.715,"text":"可是你看 隔著這樣子的話 連人都不見得碰得到可以互動的話 坦白講不是一種好方式我記得在2021年 那個兒權公約第二次國家報告 國際委員來審查的時候他主席Duke就講過說 一定要有一些友善的環境來能夠讓他才可以回歸到家庭去"},{"start":10973.175,"end":10987.766,"text":"然後呢回歸社會去否則的話這樣的方式根本都甚至韓國都有一些住宿讓家裡在住宿跟孩子相處我們都還達不到這樣可是這樣子一個會面都沒有辦法讓他跟親人有一些互動所以"},{"start":10990.026,"end":11018.074,"text":"像這樣的我認為是不是請署長這邊是不是提供給我目前的場域跟你的制度規劃針對這一題跟委員報告我們一般接見跟社工的接見會不太一樣一般的接見是少年的家屬來接見但是社工他可能有因為有公務關係我們會另外安排可是現在民間本來就有在做逆境少年的這樣服務他們是會陪同家庭進去我講的是這一塊所以"},{"start":11019.929,"end":11038.573,"text":"否則如果署長這邊的話就把這兩套方式你們都提供出來因為我們現在衛福部有在做逆境少年的這樣的一個服務裡邊事實上是社工會陪同家庭去可是一樣不能接觸到人的話基本上無助於我覺得未來要歸附到社會我們會後提供"},{"start":11039.073,"end":11063.206,"text":"好 再麻煩我們的署長另外 我諮詢第一線社工 他們跟我反映矯正學校常常拒絕提供在校的輔導記錄那就要問 次長跟署長這邊 欠缺完整的資訊以後如何有效去協助少年出校的準備因為上次我就講過 去年我就提過最好不是資料轉嫌 要關係轉嫌 要讓他們有接觸"},{"start":11065.107,"end":11089.515,"text":"未來離開教職人學校的時候我覺得社工才能夠把他們接住否則藥頭比我們更容易接觸少年幫派比我們更容易接觸少年社工反而很難因為如果沒有前期的接觸關係的轉型的話事實上是有困難的所以是不是能夠去做這樣子的一個協助"},{"start":11091.727,"end":11117.055,"text":"就是能不能提供出資料來各位報告事實上我們在轉嫌少年要離開我們矯正學校這三個月內我們都進行相關轉嫌措施他離開我們矯正學校之後我們也要追復達到一年的時間所以這個制度上是有這當時他機制上也在運作只是說資料上要提供到什麼樣的程度以便事後的追復我們再請這個矯正學校再看看再麻煩次長為什麼我也知道就是說"},{"start":11119.296,"end":11141.117,"text":"醫兒少全法本來68條就是規定要追蹤一年可是在追蹤一年之後通常雙失的比例就往往激增譬如說失血失業高達到95%這不是我們熱見的畢竟他如果要能夠在這社會生存的話他要就學或者就是他是去就業可是這都所以通常往往"},{"start":11142.818,"end":11154.342,"text":"會讓這個在做逆境社工的人他們就是會有難為之處可能要去考慮問題二就是想問署長矯正學校歷年來有多少霸凌事件你們有沒有統計數據"},{"start":11157.028,"end":11157.688,"text":"目前是沒有統計數據"},{"start":11187.108,"end":11205.558,"text":"拿同樣的問題去問你們業務單位所知的確矯正署回答我說沒有辦法統計竟然是因為沒有定義這個我有覺得有點讓我有點錯愕說定義不能夠因為教育部本來也有那個霸凌準則你也可以嘗試用他們的定義"},{"start":11207.319,"end":11233.544,"text":"可是你去看監察院過去四年內他針對於你們霸凌跟不當管教糾正過至少兩次就已經有再三提及為如實通報的話違反CRC跟欠缺問題處理機制的話缺乏內部監督這都是你們的問題所以部長署長霸凌防治跟處理具體措施就像剛剛署長提的就是掃腳條例"},{"start":11235.034,"end":11257.142,"text":"那到底何時可以完成 從2022年到現在 到現在還在收集資料 為何跟委員報告 少角校條例是在去年的3月我們部裡面已經函報行政院那至於少關所條例 這個都少年部分在今年的2月也函報行政院 在審核中"},{"start":11257.882,"end":11276.984,"text":"我覺得要進述 因為已經拖了很久了那我再看問題三就是說雖然沒有正式的統計數據我相信我們很多第一線的實務工作者都跟我提到這個我們教政學校的學生普遍存在身心健康的議題我相信署長也相當清楚"},{"start":11278.726,"end":11295.636,"text":"我知道過去幾年這個議題一直重複的在各種會議當中被討論署內也說要積極強化但可是我感覺到有一些問題什麼樣的問題呢也就是想問的是你們的合作醫院是否都具備有"},{"start":11296.216,"end":11314.725,"text":"所謂的兒少精神專科醫師甚至也想問的是你們是不是在健康檢查是不是有包含身心評估跟心理衡鑑為什麼這樣問 上聯合國就有規定所有入校處遇都應該特別關注到身心議題"},{"start":11315.899,"end":11329.394,"text":"或是關注在身心議題所以想問一下署長現在目前的健康檢查是不是有包含身心評估跟心理衡鑒還有你的特約醫院 簽約醫院有沒有具備這個兒少精神專科醫師"},{"start":11331.47,"end":11355.681,"text":"我們千葉醫院一般我們所知道的他一定會有精神科醫師我們也都會引進至於他的精神科醫師他要受有什麼專業訓練他的專業訓練是不是除了成年之外還有包含少年這個應該就是衛福部他們所主管那一般我們的健康檢查應該是"},{"start":11357.121,"end":11378.58,"text":"還沒有那麼專業到那個身心評估跟心理的橫線所以醫師是沒有在做囉我剛講聯合國又特別提醒說我們所有的入校處遇都應該要特別注意到我們是有一些編制新設人員的編制包括說我們145位從今年開始"},{"start":11382.943,"end":11410.949,"text":"那個委外城南改為A用還有我們署本部會成立一個少年的少年科增加七位新設人員增加這些新設的資源來保障少年的最佳潛意如果是這樣的話學校端到底要如何落實我們的個別化處理措施所以這也後邊也麻煩你們提供相關的資料那事實上"},{"start":11413.635,"end":11427.644,"text":"最後大概就是想針對於充實我們的新府特教專業人力的問題我上次也問過了輔導人力的部分我肯定法務部的努力可是特教師的師生比針對這第一線的協助我認為還是有相當不足"},{"start":11431.966,"end":11458.443,"text":"所以現在矯正署的回覆是說參考高中以下特教班禁用辦法以1比15的目標努力不過署長你可以看到城鎮中學是1比20喔如果你說你們已經用這個1比15的目標努力那城鎮中學都還要再更加把勁喔那我想問署長既然比照一般學校的師生比那矯正學校能否依據學生狀況來聘用學生助理員"},{"start":11460.73,"end":11487.448,"text":"來努力喔 也聘主我們的特殊教育教師我們現在的平均特教師是1比15了嘛那將來我們會盡快再把這方面再來補足那可以聘學生助理員嗎欸 對不起聘學生助理員依據學生的狀況聘用學生助理比照一般學校學生助理員在研議中"},{"start":11493.448,"end":11506.159,"text":"可不可以完善接近制度然後規劃適當場所而且建立出校準備公案的合作機制"},{"start":11506.738,"end":11525.624,"text":"否則真的幫派跟藥頭比我們更容易接觸孩子那不利於孩子回歸到社區去所以提供我們少年跟家庭的處遇工作的具體支持第二個是不是儘速完成我們的少角條例那還有我們少年矯正學校霸凌防治跟處理的具體措施來完善我們的矯正"},{"start":11526.324,"end":11549.4,"text":"教育的制度還有我們比較期待的是強化入校的身心評估跟心理衡鑒制度不是剛剛講說你又講成人像我們現在是今天進到那邊的都是兒少所以來衝刺兒少精神專科醫療的資源還有落實個別化處遇還有盡速補齊我們的心腹特教資源的源額還有依照三級輔導體系明確化五類的專輔人員的分工機制"},{"start":11552.95,"end":11571.642,"text":"所以請這個兩週後是不是可以把這相關的資料回覆給我好的 我們就委員的指教我們會積極來努力辦理好 那謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":11584.955,"end":11589.577,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們司法院副秘書長還有我們法務部次長兩位好 今天其實召委定這個題目這個前半段有一點我看起來是有一點文不對題這個其實有一點畫錯重點啦 有一點畫錯重點啦但是我今天非常清楚啦召委的意思就是在講這個劣勢裁定說重點是整個"},{"start":11612.245,"end":11636.187,"text":"在我們做出裁定以後啊 那院方跟檢方中間到底發生了什麼事啊你說 類似裁定其實啊 以招委定的題目來看的話我也不知道什麼叫 什麼依據啊這個名詞其實我也沒有聽過啦 那但是呢貫文生義啊 應該是講比較簡單的一個裁定啊應該是比較簡略的一個裁定啊 你說"},{"start":11637.421,"end":11666.449,"text":"今天我聽了這麼多委員還有你們的答詢我有很大的一個感慨我們在三權分立底下就是說我們司法享有這麼高的一個超然還有優越甚至於一般稱的司法高權那反映在我們實務上裡面我就感受到司法體系從這個案子來看的話如果為這個案子來下一個定義的話叫司法體系封閉然後精英壟斷然後不透明"},{"start":11667.572,"end":11690.589,"text":"這會造成什麼樣的一個效果呢就是說你給你這麼崇高的司法威信但是人民的信任那你怎麼樣去畫上等號幾位都是法律人坐在這邊剩下幾乎都是法律人那我一個最大的一個感觸就是說你這個整個案子這個案子 鄭文智這個案子裡面讓人覺得非常詭異的一個地方就是說啊你在"},{"start":11693.817,"end":11713.355,"text":"高等法院的法官在113年11月14號做出這樣一個裁定啊那我看到你這個整個114年3月28號好像這個案 這個裁定才送出來那個副秘書長可不可以解釋一下這個到底是什麼意思這段期間到底發生了什麼事"},{"start":11714.745,"end":11744.037,"text":"發生了什麼事然後次長你應該也要跟社會對話你們到底是什麼時候收到還是你們全部都沒有收到本席的問題就很簡單法官也是人憲法保障你這個終身的一個保障司法的一個獨立問你們問題你們講說這個都是個案好像講的個案都不能問哪有這種事要看個案是怎麼樣的一個個案這個哪叫個案"},{"start":11745.151,"end":11760.587,"text":"法官也是人欸今天是因為說這個我們三權分立底下大家認為說我們把司法就交給你法官你來代表國家你不能亂判欸你亂判還是枉法裁判也不行欸所以這個案子我很大的一個感慨就是說"},{"start":11761.368,"end":11776.161,"text":"我不跟你爭執什麼劣勢裁定你下了一個判決裡面一個裁判就是你不是用判決不然你就是用裁定你裁定的方式你口頭上也可以你說我在審理單裡面我來註記也可以或者說我用書面正式的書面來製作也可以問題來了你做出來以後"},{"start":11784.975,"end":11805.72,"text":"這是我法官的意識 不 這不是法官的意識這代表國家的意識一個人到底要不要關 一個人要交保多少一個人到底要不要用科技監控 這都不是法官的意識你代表司法 你代表國家在執法好啦 執法完以後你不是你說了算啊你說了算以後你要讓人家表達有沒有其他的意見啊那總要讓檢察官知道吧檢察官到底知不知道複密 到底有沒有通知檢察官"},{"start":11812.908,"end":11831.796,"text":"謝謝委員那個指證就是很遺憾的這個案件確實他真的就是以一個違反程序規定啊我不想知道有沒有違反程序規定那當然違反程序規定是說檢察官知不知道那檢察官知道以後兩件事情嘛第一個就宋達嘛我法官"},{"start":11832.256,"end":11848.912,"text":"我代表國家表達這個意思表示完以後我要讓外界周知那至少呢我就跟你說好你這個當事人你這個被告你現在這個科技監控不必了那你這個加保2000萬那可以你代表國家做出這樣的一個裁定可以可是呢"},{"start":11849.292,"end":11866.464,"text":"你明明知道說做出來以後檢察官可以抗告的啊那檢察官抗告以後那你總是法官這個小學生也知道你法官的素養你也知道那資深法官呢你總要讓檢察官知道說他是可以抗告的你總要通知吧是用打電話的方式還是書面送達的方式早上我都沒聽到咧告訴我答案那個 次長你知道嗎"},{"start":11874.687,"end":11900.494,"text":"各位報告那目前台高檢察署檢查這個調查的確診兩個事實第一個第一個是10月9號檢察官的確有在延長科控的這個開庭的時候有確定的表達要要求要繼續的延長監控這第一點第二點是到目前為止檢察官沒有收到任何有關延長監控的裁定或者是宣示這兩點是確定的阿咱咱別說命啊不命"},{"start":11901.274,"end":11906.437,"text":"你會不知道這個案子就是違法嗎就是因為他是那個違私的違反那個訴訟法規定的也因此呢就是高院的自律委員會啟動那個自律那也決定把他們送那個法庭"},{"start":11920.751,"end":11946.901,"text":"這個有點開玩笑 這個社會喔 社會實在是你說要建立好不容易這個司法的威信你們說你們很努力 法官依法來審判然後呢 我是很權威的 全部都不能給我干涉個案是啊 社會上誰敢跟你們干涉個案現在台灣已經走到這個以現在台灣 現在大家對司法的一個要求可是你們有這個威信可是做出這樣子 你不覺得荒腔走板嗎"},{"start":11948.683,"end":11969.228,"text":"郭文貴市長你不是覺得這很奇怪嗎這個如果要惡意去評價的話就兩種狀況啊一種狀況 你是臨床酒醉的喔 忘記了喔專業都忘記了的啊 第二你就是要偷偷放人嘛 就這麼簡單嘛你叫我解讀 我完全想不出往正面去解讀耶市長不是嗎我這樣解讀有錯嗎 還是我腦袋"},{"start":11977.771,"end":12001.221,"text":"錯亂 我跟人 我的腦袋瓜不正常張偉我這樣想很合理吧你也做過檢查關的咧是不是這樣說所以我都覺得這個案子喔非常非常的一個荒唐啦所以這到底隱藏了些什麼 不知道但是我要求啦這個案子要好好去做徹查啦複密 合理吧總要回應社會的一個期待啊可以嗎"},{"start":12005.459,"end":12015.931,"text":"行政調查的部分司法院一直在進行至於說有沒有涉及到其他的更高的犯罪更高的圍屍這個部分檢方也已經有啟動"},{"start":12019.975,"end":12033,"text":"關關相護 我會跟你這樣講 我會覺得這樣不好外界會做這樣的一個解讀真的不好啦 真的不好另外我要來就教的就是說我們今天談到的就是科技監控這個部分 我反而會覺得"},{"start":12034.48,"end":12055.863,"text":"我反而會覺得這個部分涉及到整個專業訓練的一個問題啦你當然科技監控來看的話我們整個訴訟程序裡面你說在進行當中你要去保全這個被告保全這個證據我們又怕過度去侵害到人生人生它自己的一個自由所以好像是又把它給降低了又有科技監控"},{"start":12056.743,"end":12072.291,"text":"另外呢 受刑人的部分你認為說要讓他復歸社會啦也未必要讓他出來以後又怕這個整個社會的一個安全網那所以再加這個科技的一個監控可是呢 我反而會覺得對法官 對檢察官來講的話"},{"start":12074.851,"end":12102.047,"text":"這個部分反而不是他們的在行不是他們的在行怎麼樣實務再去加強教育的訓練科技執法這個過程裡面保障他的一個對被告的一個保全或在過程裡面不要有任何損失這個部分我認為司法院也好或者說我們法務部也好這個部分應該專業的部分應該是教育訓練應該再去加強好不好那我想最後一個問題我要再來請教的就是說"},{"start":12103.167,"end":12118.43,"text":"國安的部分我有一個很大的感慨最近我們看到這幾個月共諜案幾乎成月經文每個月都在爆發年年這樣在曝光從現役的軍官"},{"start":12119.591,"end":12136.68,"text":"退役的上校一路到民間的協作者幾乎各行各業幾乎都淪陷了這些共諜案它其實不是捕風捉影這查出來了也起訴了也送到法院但是問題是說查得多判得清社會也未必看得下去"},{"start":12137.987,"end":12162.872,"text":"我就拿那個退役上校簽署那個投降承諾書那件來看法院最後判了七年六個月看起來是合理我覺得七年六個月大家也不會覺得輕跟重大家覺得法院判了嘛也不會太輕嘛可是呢你再去看看司法院跟法務部你們知道民間討論的是什麼嗎他們在討論的是說一個軍人偷一台這個洗衣機破十幾噸啊簽投降書的破七噸"},{"start":12166.877,"end":12187.533,"text":"方向到底有沒有搞錯很難去評價因為法官獨立每一個人對案情的一個掌握判斷會有所不同但是呢這個社會不是反對依法審判但是人民看到的是說法院可不可以對得起這個國家的一個風險量刑的準則我們講了很久了講了很久了你很難去我們要求說法官獨立審判"},{"start":12192.737,"end":12214.956,"text":"然後呢又給他指指點點可是呢我們2021年我們就講說要設立一個量刑準則委員會也送出了刑事案件妥適量刑的一個草案現在2025年了啦2025年了啦 也不快到了到底什麼時候準備要上路我看遙遙無期啦我們司法院這個地方有沒有什麼打算沒有"},{"start":12216.089,"end":12216.209,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":12247.75,"end":12250.353,"text":"因為在那個基礎設施那個部分我最主要就是說案件的審理依法審判我們都可以懂但問題就是說我們很怕案件到最後相關類似的國安案件到最後都是法官自己看著辦"},{"start":12274.893,"end":12301.322,"text":"自己愛怎麼判就怎麼判我們最糟糕的就是最怕的就是這個雖然檢察官對於整個法院的審判他可以依法來提起上訴可是常常會看到很多案件跟社會上落差太大了你像比如說我們並不是要求關案件一個人全部都要去涉案的人全部都要關一輩子但是呢如果有些案件你去看收了敵國或者收了我們一般講的都是講中國收了"},{"start":12304.161,"end":12324.43,"text":"中國那邊的錢 然後我們也去洩密然後也簽署了投降文件你說這個不叫危害國安 什麼叫危害國安那甚至於過去還有去判緩刑的國安案件如果說證據明確 那還可以去判緩刑還有犯貨態度良好的 也有去講說一時失慮"},{"start":12329.332,"end":12349.508,"text":"然後誤觸法典 然後用這樣的一個方式來判緩刑啊這個啊 我都會覺得莫名其妙啦我建議啊 我這樣要求好了 不只建議我們司法院 或者法務部這個地方啊可不可以整理一下這幾年類似緩刑的一個案例 國安案件的來送交我們本委員會好不好"},{"start":12350.828,"end":12375.301,"text":"是 可以齁 合理嘛 我們再來好好的去檢視一下我們現在法院裡面 現在有沒有國安法庭有 有國安法庭了 有專庭有這個專庭了 那就案件分到誰的手上就看運氣了就變這樣子了 法官有的判重 有的判輕那對於這個部分 國安我倒覺得說"},{"start":12376.417,"end":12392.287,"text":"真的是不能是空話 量刑也不能去失衡那量刑的標準不依的話我們很怕 很怕很怕到最後 你說甲烷去抓了那麼多那判下來"},{"start":12393.248,"end":12412.833,"text":"那跟人民的一個對於法律的一個確信或者是期待相差那麼大你說國安法的案件你最多判到12年公安罪可以判到死刑那你情報人員協助人員協助洩密的限制的沒有加重然後退伍的還要加重像這些邏輯都錯亂"},{"start":12416.772,"end":12442.41,"text":"我今天最語重心長要講就是說其實請司法院真的要正視這樣的一個問題國安的問題不能變成司法的一個盲區所以我要求我們司法院可以再針對於這三年就好了這三年國安案件判緩刑的這些摘要跟理由我們稍微做一個分析我們再來看看"},{"start":12443.331,"end":12471.383,"text":"好好的去做一個檢視才不會讓社會會覺得說這個法院的一個判決裡面是不是法官的一個恣意我這不是要干預判決我是要問我們司法體系裡面到底有沒有辦法扛得住整個國家的一個安全因為制度賦予法官獨立審判制度賦予法官享有這麼多的一個保障"},{"start":12472.756,"end":12472.776,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12521.172,"end":12536.625,"text":"好 那個我們現在先做一個會議宣告那上午的時間繼續進行製作登記發言委員訓導結束為止好 接下來我們請張家俊委員張家俊委員 張家俊委員好 下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":12544.471,"end":12550.678,"text":"主席有請司法院王副秘書長 法務部政部長想請教我們副秘書長以及我們次長目前我們的科控載具大概有幾種"},{"start":12569.073,"end":12594.3,"text":"四種嘛對不對腳環手環還有這個手機以及這個這個那個居家讀取器啦那有關科控處分的命令大概有幾種類型科控處分在116條之二他有各種他有八款嘛他有各種排列組合去做組合包括預防逃逆嘛禁止進入禁止離開禁止騷擾接近電子報導對不對"},{"start":12596.673,"end":12620.243,"text":"那也就像司法院的報告裡面說的採用科控的目的是在於用科技設備監控來防止逃亡嘛那來確保審理程序順利進行那我想請教一下從110年4月科控防逃新制啟用到今年3月底法院的科控件數是多少95件嘛對不對對報告上的"},{"start":12624.758,"end":12653.626,"text":"那檢查機關是多少123件所以兩者合計218件那今年1月我曾經向司法院所知詢問過當時就在關心這個問題那當時回函告訴我就是說這一段期間各法院使用科控的案件裡面都沒有逃逆的情形發生嘛是不是所以成效還算不錯啦都沒有逃逆的情形發生那我想請教就是說"},{"start":12658.784,"end":12665.092,"text":"在法務部的報告裡說科技設備監控開案件數也大幅增加112年到113年從30件成長到97件"},{"start":12670.359,"end":12692.049,"text":"然後這個漲幅3.2倍今年前三個月就已經到80件所以按照這個速度來講今年渴望大幅增加看來是很多好像也很樂觀可是我想從另外一個角度來問一下法務部你知道過去這幾年每年棄保潛逃的拒保人大概有多少棄保潛逃的人數"},{"start":12698.201,"end":12706.587,"text":"一千多人 我要回覆過委員我把這個也是你們給我的數據啦對 一千多人110年到112年拒保件數是18,058件拒保保證金沒入件數是3,491件棄保的比例高達19.3%等於是五件就有一件棄保那棄保的那個件數"},{"start":12726.661,"end":12740.357,"text":"非常的驚人一年的話劍數就將近要一千劍這個其實是蠻恐怖的數字沒錯吧是對 蠻恐怖的數字那這數字其實高得非常可怕就是變成是說"},{"start":12741.755,"end":12756.813,"text":"我們也變成是我們今天犯罪偵訪的犯罪偵查以及說我們今天刑事訴追的一個很大的破口那這也是為什麼我不斷在推動棄保潛逃罪立法的初衷"},{"start":12757.774,"end":12782.118,"text":"那我想請教一下之所以不採取羈押用拒保是不是就是因為司法體系認為被告沒有逃亡之餘或逃亡之餘很輕微可是現在卻顯示出司法實務有大量棄保潛逃的情形那麼等不等於我們司法機關某種程度也嚴重錯估了被告逃亡的可能性"},{"start":12783.223,"end":12787.692,"text":"我請兩位都回答好了先請我們司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":12788.988,"end":12816.839,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁就是在那個去年一一三年的時候呢院方就是院方自己齁發布通緝的有四千一百二十八件那但是其實這一些那個案件呢真正那個分析起來他不見得真的就是所謂的那個跑走了啦他有時候事實上是這個人他可能就是比較居無定所的所以那個短時間那個找不到我講的不是通緝啦是我講的是那個棄保潛逃這一塊啦"},{"start":12818.62,"end":12842.863,"text":"對 那但是所謂的那我講你承不承認 你會認不認同確實有很大的落差存在剛才我講的數據你也應該覺得很嚴重吧那可是實際上在採取所謂的不管我們講說是相關的那個我們講形式偵查的程序的手段那很重要的目的就是實現我們形式的正義嘛可是那為什麼有這麼大的落差"},{"start":12844.232,"end":12851.892,"text":"那是不是因為我們錯估了今天逃亡的可能性棄保潛逃的可能性有這個可能性嗎還是我請那個次長來回答一下"},{"start":12852.789,"end":12881.194,"text":"委員提到的是為什麼要不用羈押要選擇羈押替代處分的理由他是不是沒有這個逃亡的可能性 倒不是他用選擇這個羈押替代處分他是有羈押的原因事實但只是沒有羈押的必要性在必要性的時候他認為不需要以羈押來作為這個我懂啦 就算覺得程度沒到這個地方啦那必要性他其實是考慮一個比例原則的問題可是我告訴你喔 那我就要進到下一個問題我已經講了也不只是羈押的問題"},{"start":12883.18,"end":12909.603,"text":"很顯然保金這件事情對所謂的防逃的效能跟效率至少看到就有一個千箭破口一年我剛剛那個比例已經講得很高可是我剛剛前面為什麼要講誇你們的科控的成效你們在進行科控的部分都發現沒有這個問題就沒有逃走的問題是不是還是你們資料給我是錯的"},{"start":12911.434,"end":12933.645,"text":"上面講那個科控的那個狀況 只要在科控狀況之下目前為止進行科控的還沒有發生有具體逃亡的事件 進行科控的所以我就要講就是說 這個實際上現在的那個科控的以今年來說 一年來說的目前科控的大概只有97件那比起現在免軍千件的棄保潛逃"},{"start":12935.294,"end":12962.863,"text":"這科控的比例似乎也是蠻低的那你是不是又變成我剛剛講的第二個層次問題你不是講羈押 羈不羈押跟隨棄保潛逃的判斷問題那科不科控呢科控的狀況比羈押手段的輕微性要低得多啦 沒錯吧那為什麼在採取所謂的相關防逃措施的過程當中科控的部分的使用的比例這麼的低"},{"start":12965.219,"end":12991.972,"text":"就檢察官的角度來看檢察官如果認為他有相關的事業檢察官原則上他是以羈押為優先最容易確保被告的未來的道庭所以他首先他會用羈押來做處理那在必要性或者比例原則的考慮之下他才會選擇用科控來處理所以案件上科控會比較少我跟你講 我跟次長說啦很顯然這些有一些系統性結構的漏洞跟盲點存在"},{"start":12994.025,"end":13019.451,"text":"當然我也覺得說你可以省著必要性可是事實擺在眼前就是這麼多的人逃亡不管是棄保潛逃還是用別的方式逃亡那以你們前面跟我講科控逃掉的件數是零比例是零的時候科控的所謂的手段的強制性又比羈押要低的時候"},{"start":13020.458,"end":13048.773,"text":"那我就馬上就問一個問題最具體的案例啊中文字的案例如果採取科控的話他棄保潛逃的可能性是不是就會大幅下降是不是這個個案我們要談嗎這個抱歉我跟你講我覺得我真的是在這邊好像變成是什麼個案恐懼症還是個案的矛盾症這不是個案啦我只是講說今天這種情況之下科控的狀況"},{"start":13051.374,"end":13056.699,"text":"從這個事實面來講他在進行科控當中他事實上是沒有逃亡的從這個事實上來講他是沒有在科控的時候逃亡的"},{"start":13063.8,"end":13087.558,"text":"然後下一個就是另外一位遠東航空前董事長張剛維他有七次違反科技監控的警示行為有兩次出現在漁港附近然後他就被緊急拘提了 對不對改採羈押所以就避免了他的逃亡行為我在這邊其實都在肯定目前科控的效率"},{"start":13088.943,"end":13115.234,"text":"沒錯吧所以因此在這邊我是真的是誠摯的提醒一下不管是司法院跟法務部當然我知道也要尊重法官的裁量權啦可是法官的裁量權跟我們現在實質上犯罪這個所謂的那個防治以及所謂的實現我們刑事正義的這個需求人民的期待也不能落差這麼的大我像剛剛講是普遍的例子就跑了這麼多"},{"start":13116.684,"end":13135.94,"text":"那跑這麼多事實上就等於我們犯罪我們今天國家的刑事正義不能夠去加諸在這些所謂犯罪者身上的話那就是台灣人民就是受害者啊那更何況還有一些重大的案件最近引發了極大的爭議那甚至都有司法人員要受到追究了嘛 對不對"},{"start":13136.801,"end":13164.063,"text":"那這種情況之下我覺得法務部跟司法院真的是非常有責任來去檢視這整個系統性結構性到底對於所謂的目前我們這個犯罪逃亡不管是氣泡剪刀或其他的太陽怎麼去防止特別是科控的工具如何使用我覺得這個真的是拜託大家啦就好好的來在這一部分來去把它加強琢磨可以嗎好沒問題好那這麻煩兩位謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13169.619,"end":13183.135,"text":"楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員、沈發慧委員、沈發慧委員、沈發慧委員"},{"start":13185.643,"end":13206.039,"text":"都沒有到那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 詢問結束委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答覆者請相關機關請訴 縱交個別委員會及本會我先補充一個東西就是司法院還有法務部這邊"},{"start":13209.229,"end":13232.299,"text":"我想請教一下就是因為我們星期一的時候才去看科控中心那我看完科控中心的時候我有想到一件事情但當天我並沒有提到那我想說請市長院跟法務部可以研擬一下看怎麼做就是我們在拒保的時候我們都會有拒保人那我們在像譬如說"},{"start":13237.926,"end":13250.178,"text":"財務的所有連帶保證人等等這些規定我們科控中心對被告適宜電子監控的時候我們是不是可以強制他提供緊急聯絡人"},{"start":13251.599,"end":13269.218,"text":"或者是說司法院在法官下裁定的時候可以要求被告指定一個緊急聯絡的人才不會說被告他一時聯繫不到然後我們就不知道要找誰可不可以就是做這個研擬看看能不能講因為我知道現在會"},{"start":13270.479,"end":13286.284,"text":"非強制性的會問他要不要那我們可不可以把這個當作是一個強制的規定譬如說法官在下裁定的時候就請他提交一位或兩位的緊急聯絡人那在法務部這邊也是這等於是"},{"start":13287.706,"end":13312.493,"text":"為我們的電子監控能夠再多一個多一個作為啦因為我們那天去看的狀況是電子監控設備譬如說手機等等的如果他設備沒有損壞或不是沒電那確實那個客戶中心是可以聯繫他請他用視訊的方式讓客戶中心人能夠了解他當時的狀況還有所在的位置但是如果說是因為設備的問題"},{"start":13314.433,"end":13327.659,"text":"聯絡不上的話那至少我們要可不可以有一個緊急聯絡人或兩位緊急聯絡人我想說是不是請市長院跟法務部能夠研擬一下這個做法那天禮拜一我看完之後我的一個想法目前它是沒有調節規定但是在1.6之1等於在第二項以否所列的但是事實上是法官在下任科控的時候"},{"start":13351.422,"end":13367.658,"text":"目前我看是可以但是並沒有一個強制的規定就剛剛複密所說的沒錯那所以我的意思是不是說能不能夠原理把這個當作是一個強制的規定就是說當事人他如果法官要對他下這個裁定我想說他"},{"start":13368.789,"end":13397.268,"text":"這一定是被告想要爭取的就是以電子監控的方式取代羈押那是不是說可以要求他必須提供緊急聯絡人我想說這是那天我看完的一個想法那再請兩位能夠回去研究一下這對人民我覺得是有很大的意義大家不想看到權貴犯罪就跑掉好 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徐永梅"},{"start":2090.68,"end":2113.778,"text":"研究設計會主任張雅光理兵處處長陳欣欣秘書處處長陳景林人事處處長呂士儀政風處公使韓建豪主計處長林佩華"},{"start":2121.215,"end":2127.818,"text":"資訊及電務處處長林啟文公眾外交協調會執行長蕭光維國際事務辦公室執行長陳剛毅非政府組織國際事務會執行長江振維"},{"start":2153.234,"end":2179.309,"text":"台灣日本關係協會副秘書長林佑慧台灣美國事務委員會秘書長邱高維外交及國際事務學院主任秘書蘇秋熙領事事務局代理局長陳尚友"},{"start":2182.109,"end":2205.795,"text":"財團法人國際合作發展發展基金會秘書長黃毅林財團法人台灣民主基金會執行長廖建齊廖達齊抱歉那介紹經濟部的政務次長江文洛"},{"start":2209.048,"end":2221.999,"text":"產業發展署檢任計政鄭先佑國際貿易署副署長福啟堅投資審議司副市長蘇啟彥副主任委員沈宥忠"},{"start":2239.705,"end":2251.568,"text":"大陸委員會大陸委員會的這個副主任委員沈憂忠經濟處處長葉凱平綜合規劃處副處長陳淑娟陳淑媚抱歉常務次長謝玲媛財政部的常務次長那"},{"start":2270.479,"end":2295.251,"text":"負稅署副署長陳惠琦官務署主任秘書江惠君中國輸出入銀行副總經理王挺傑國家發展委員會副主任委員高仙貴經濟發展處副署長陳美菊"},{"start":2300.484,"end":2324.252,"text":"行政經貿談判辦公室副總談判談判代表嚴慧欣中央銀行副總裁朱美麗補充介紹王帝穎委員"},{"start":2332.862,"end":2346.905,"text":"確定議事錄請問在場的委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有好那議事錄確定"},{"start":2350.387,"end":2372.036,"text":"本日會邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會、財政部、國家發展委員會行政院經貿談判辦公室及中央銀行報告美國開放全球貿易制裁及以中共競可下我外交經貿戰略布局及因應並備詢質詢"},{"start":2375.777,"end":2380.677,"text":"一首先請外交部我們林佳龍部長來上台"},{"start":2389.475,"end":2415.763,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安承蒙貴會邀請外交部前來就美國開啟全球貿易制裁與中共競合下我外交經貿戰略部局及因應來進行專題報告並備質詢以下請提出本部說明敬請主席及各位委員不吝指教首先川普政府自上任後就推出了一系列的經貿政策"},{"start":2417.301,"end":2436.316,"text":"那麼只盼達成與外國貿易公平互惠美國再工業化製造業及供應鏈重回美國以及維持美國在人工智慧等高科技產業之領導地位那同時呢以積極的方式促進吸引各國赴美投資設廠等為目標"},{"start":2438.197,"end":2452.606,"text":"那麼基於此川普總統在美東時間4月2號在白宮發表演說宣布新關稅措施包括你自4月5日起對所有國家進口貨品課徵10%的基礎關稅並自4月9日起對包含台灣在內的近60個國家課徵對等關稅"},{"start":2461.812,"end":2478.477,"text":"那麼其中你對台灣課徵32%的關稅那半導體跟藥品等這樣或豁免那麼隨即呢就在4月9日開始實施的時候呢川普總統那麼除了針對中國提高關稅到125%那麼"},{"start":2488.25,"end":2505.813,"text":"對於75個國家已經跟美國已經有表達要進行關稅談判那麼他再給予90天暫停措施那只苛徵10%的基礎關稅那麼而且即刻生效"},{"start":2507.108,"end":2522.952,"text":"因此我們對於台美有關於關稅談判的一個進行我們也一方面做好了各種方案的準備同時對於台美之間談判的方式有關於進行已經也建立了溝通聯繫的管道"},{"start":2530.117,"end":2557.267,"text":"那麼總統特別是在今天一個國際媒體上有發表完整的深化台美經貿關係路徑圖這裡面有很詳細的來說明特別是總統在本月六日說明的政府的五項應變策略包括透過談判改善對等關稅提出產業支持計畫"},{"start":2558.615,"end":2568.734,"text":"提出中長期經濟發展計畫以及台灣加一佈局美國及全球市場另外就是傾聽產業的聲音外交部可持續積極的協同國內"},{"start":2571.79,"end":2599.651,"text":"相關的部會推動應變的策略那今天呢總統的這個路徑圖的完整的一個內容我想在國際上一定會引起很大的重視我們不只是被動的要回應川普提出的對等關稅我們希望能夠積極的來推動台美經澳關係的一個深化特別是總統提到的台灣投資美國隊"},{"start":2600.692,"end":2614.037,"text":"那我們怎麼樣充分利用美國的龐大的市場他們的科技資金跟人才也可以讓台灣的產業能夠有新的佈局那在供應鏈重組的此時能夠有一個更有競爭力的一個國際的地位"},{"start":2618.559,"end":2638.611,"text":"那關於具體的我們跨部會的應變措施主要有幾下幾點那麼首先是擴大對煤採購以降低貿易逆差行政院基於我國家安全及利益已經完成盤點對農 工 石油 天然氣等產品的大量採購計畫各項採購都會積極來進行那外交部也持續跟各部會協調確保各項計畫能夠順利的來推動"},{"start":2646.616,"end":2660.727,"text":"那麼另外就是擴大對美國的投資讓台美經貿合作更緊密提升台灣經貿戰略地位除了台積電目前宣布對美國再投資1000億美元那就合計超過1650億美元的投資以外那麼"},{"start":2665.951,"end":2691.099,"text":"美國白宮也有聲明已經多次將台灣承諾對擴大美國的投資列為重要的政績那凸顯台美雙方是互利共榮的供應鏈的關係那另外一方面在能源的採購和投資方面特別是阿拉斯加的石油那麼中油已經公司跟他們簽訂了這個未來的合作的一個意向書"},{"start":2692.279,"end":2711.95,"text":"那其他的投資項目還包括像AI非常多的這些資通訊的產業等行政院也做好了盤點具體的項目跟金額此外我國企業也響應美國商務部舉辦的選擇美國投資高峰會就是SelectUSA"},{"start":2713.001,"end":2731.117,"text":"那麼外交部將與相關部會共同協助我業者了解赴美投資環境並結合台美雙方的優勢增進台美經貿關係及加強公年的合作以提升台灣整體經貿戰略地位那麼SelectUSA是在5月上中旬就即將來舉辦"},{"start":2733.919,"end":2755.099,"text":"那麼未來隨著業者赴海外的佈局投資供應鏈韌性將更為加強亦有助於台美共建緊密的網路協助雙方企業在彼此市場共拓商機就是包括我們也期待美方能夠組成美國投資台灣隊以對等互惠的方式來深化台美的經貿夥伴的關係"},{"start":2757.361,"end":2784.437,"text":"另外呢在台美貿易產業貿易結構的互補性台灣是美國重建製造業及鞏固高科技領導地位中不可或缺的重要夥伴那也盼藉由此事那麼尋求台美雙邊貿易平衡的合理性的同時能夠來增強彼此的一個夥伴關係那由於我國跟美國共享民主自由及法治的價值而且具備串聯產業完整上下游的能力"},{"start":2785.297,"end":2803.068,"text":"也秉持了政治民主經濟自由開放對國際社會負責任的原則台灣是美國打造重要戰略產業供應鏈的最佳夥伴外交部及我駐美國各管處也持續對外強化以上的論述彰顯台灣對全球高科技供應鏈的貢獻"},{"start":2804.807,"end":2826.582,"text":"那麼再者我政府將持續透過如台美經濟環融夥伴對話這些既有的機制就EPPD那麼討論雙方關切的議題以深化互惠互利的夥伴關係那包括到第三國的投資包括我們的邦交國包括理念相近的國家那麼持續來推動解決台美雙重"},{"start":2828.184,"end":2846.999,"text":"剋稅的問題減少雙邊投資負擔而進一步擴展台美經貿的一個關係那麼再來面對中國帶來的地緣政治的挑戰我政府將與民主夥伴合作打造堅韌的非紅供應鏈以提升我國的戰略地位"},{"start":2847.999,"end":2868.784,"text":"這是因為面對中國主導的紅色供應鏈以及低價請銷的衝擊台灣有能力也有意願跟民主陣營團結合作共同來維持民主夥伴的科技優勢結合我政府積極發展的五大信賴產業與民主夥伴來打造堅韌的非紅供應鏈以有效嚇阻威權主義的擴張"},{"start":2872.036,"end":2894.941,"text":"政府也提出了全球半導體民主供應鏈夥伴倡議利用尖端半導體的優勢盼與民主夥伴共同建立AI晶片產業鏈的全球聯盟同時對接川普政府重視的AI產業政策那麼台美是雙方強化經濟及能源韌性的重要合作夥伴除了這一個"},{"start":2895.987,"end":2919.455,"text":"半導體還有這些AI以外在能源方面如何增加能源更穩定而有競爭力的採購長期的投資也是一個更具有確保我們經濟安全甚至國家安全的必須要的一個手段因此在今年3月阿拉斯加州長"},{"start":2922.298,"end":2949.349,"text":"Dolivet應美台商會M-Trend邀請來參加謝年飯的活動期間雙方面有了深入的討論並由中油和阿拉斯加的油氣公司來簽訂了採購跟投資的意向書這都是具體被列為加強台美關係特別是能源的韌性跟安全重要的一個突破"},{"start":2950.233,"end":2969.227,"text":"那麼最後呢在推動我們的經濟外交上那行政院也成立了經濟外交工作小組那外交部負責策略規劃也與各相關部會建立起雙部長聯繫的會議那展開各個工作小組這裡面包括跟經濟部農業部還有"},{"start":2972.598,"end":2990.784,"text":"衛福部、教育部、環境部等這個機制也有助於展開對台美經貿的談判還有未來合作關係的促進最後在面對中國的威權擴張我們怎麼去鞏固邦交國的關係除了傳統的故邦我們也提出龍邦的計畫"},{"start":2991.764,"end":3006.45,"text":"那最主要是希望透過具體台灣的產業創新發展的經驗結合美日等友盟能夠到這些國家去投資其中一個例子就是在中美洲的瓜地馬拉"},{"start":3007.652,"end":3032.011,"text":"美國國務卿盧比歐在訪問中美洲的時候特別肯定瓜地馬拉跟台灣維持邦交關係但也期待台美合作共同能夠增加對瓜地馬拉的投資巴拉圭是南美洲另外一個例子我們的鄰居菲律賓也是台美在經貿合作也就是EPPD架構推動很重要合作的一個對象"},{"start":3032.631,"end":3054.673,"text":"那結合上他們提出的夥伴機會考察團那麼我們期待在陸續展開台美在第三國的投資還有經貿的合作那麼以上就是針對今天的主題做的一個簡要報告那敬請主席跟各位委員不吝指教謝謝"},{"start":3060.373,"end":3077.474,"text":"接著請經濟部姜次長進行報告主席各位委員大家好承蒙貴委員會邀請就"},{"start":3078.564,"end":3102.138,"text":"台美開啟全球貿易制裁及中共競合校我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應進行報告經濟部將針對當前美中關稅措施及政府佈局因應二要說明敬請各位委員不吝賜教有關美中關稅的說明因為美國對中國的關稅還有中國對美關稅有最新的進展"},{"start":3103.378,"end":3117.466,"text":"等一下我會用口頭來補充最新的進展首先在美國的關稅部分川普總統在今年的4月2號宣布從4月5號起對所有國家普遍加徵10%的關稅自4月9號起針對貿易逆差比較多的57國課徵11%到50%的關稅"},{"start":3125.951,"end":3146.836,"text":"另因为中国对美国科征报复性关税川普总统在4月9号宣布对中科征对等关税从34条升为84累计对中国科征的关税将达104%同日川普政府又再宣布对中国增加关税到125%立即生效"},{"start":3150.057,"end":3172.329,"text":"而對其他國家的對等關稅暫停90天暫停期間的稅率降到10%至於中國反制美國的關稅措施中國原以對美國的煤炭、原油、農產品加徵10%到15%的關稅在美國宣布科徵對等關稅之後再度在4月10日"},{"start":3173.55,"end":3188.97,"text":"再度宣布從4月10日起對自美所有的進口產品加徵34%的關稅又在4月9日起宣布對美國再加徵50%關稅所以整體的稅率增加到84%"},{"start":3191.253,"end":3209.238,"text":"為了貫徹賴總統價值外交的理念,行政院成立經濟外交工作小組,跨部會推行統合外交,落實總統經濟日不落國的理念。此外,行政院也成立了台美經貿工作小組,協調統合相關對美經貿戰略及因應對策。"},{"start":3212.839,"end":3238.885,"text":"相關的因應對策如下第一 透過談判決定爭取改善對等的關稅賴總統於4月發表談話由行政院政府院長領軍組成談判小組成員包括國安會 經貿談判辦公室行政院相關部會等而且擴大對美採購以降低貿易逆差行政院已經完成盤點農工 石油 天然氣等產品的大量採購計劃"},{"start":3241.088,"end":3256.559,"text":"經濟部帶領產業全球佈局美國雖然是非常重要的市場但它非單一的市場在經過美中貿易戰跟疫情的洗禮之後台昌透過多元佈局開拓新市場優化生產流程整合全球價值鏈"},{"start":3257.8,"end":3285.638,"text":"降低风险是在全球经济变局中维持竞争优势的关键鉴于美国加征关税将影响我部分厂商在海外的布局经济部会协助厂商调整供应链例如转移到美国或其他国家提供目标市场资讯观察等客制化的服务包括当地的投资法令市场机会以及协助寻找合作伙伴等确保台商得到最适切的支援"},{"start":3286.519,"end":3311.231,"text":"第三點,因應全球地緣政治變化以及迎接智慧化時代政府推動半導體、人工智慧、軍工等五大信賴產業的發展台灣有科技研發能力、工程人才以及完善的產業供應鏈與民主夥伴共同合作打造韌性非紅供應鏈鞏固科技關鍵地位、擴大需求、帶動產業發展"},{"start":3313.092,"end":3338.5,"text":"同时面对国际经济情势快速变化台湾也需要厚植国力强化产业韧性政府持续利用投资台湾三大方案协助我商及外商在我国站稳脚跟截至今年的3月28日总投资额约2兆5000多亿元超过1600家厂商透过审核预估会创造就业16万多人"},{"start":3339.764,"end":3357.334,"text":"行政院已經提出880億元的因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案經濟部在工業方面提供了金融支持提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場三大面向總共四項支援措施包括"},{"start":3358.314,"end":3376.713,"text":"外銷貸款優惠保證對於受影響的企業經濟部將提供外銷貸款優惠信用保證透過高保證陳述保證額度及補貼保證手續費降低業者採購原料生產及出口周轉金等負擔協助多元佈局"},{"start":3377.844,"end":3390.267,"text":"二中小微企业的贷款为受影响的企业提供资金办理周转性支出及购置机器设备贷款并搭配利息补贴及信用保证"},{"start":3391.53,"end":3417.941,"text":"第三点,补助研发转型,鼓励售美,加征关税影响的制造业技术升级,双轴转型,取得海外订单或者认验证,打造更高规格的新产品维系产业竞争力。第四点,协助企业争取海外订单,补助企业海外新设展示中心,服务中心,发货仓库等实体据点或者代理经销商协助企业拓展国际市场。"},{"start":3419.67,"end":3446.748,"text":"同時為了防範中國可能會違規轉印或低價請銷或者中國可能會避開美國的政府實施違規轉印我國已經密切注意中國或者從第三國進口產品以及相關產品輸往美國的情形是否異常來採取救濟或防堵的措施為了防堵違規轉印會由海關進行邊境查驗如果有查獲出口人"},{"start":3447.548,"end":3466.418,"text":"由产地标示的不实的情形会移送经济部贸易署依贸易法处分出口人业者如果认为中国倾销会造成我国产业损害也可向财政部申请科征反倾销税财政部及经济部将依法进行调查"},{"start":3467.538,"end":3488.786,"text":"我政府的目标是让我国业者立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销权世界打造台湾成为经济日不落国政府会做产业的后盾让我国业者可以放心安心来投资也鼓励在地的企业跟由台湾扩大对台湾的投资经济部也将持续跨部会合作"},{"start":3489.486,"end":3501.514,"text":"與美方溝通確保我產業利益並關注美國關稅政策的演進及影響性密切掌握我業者需求強化產業競爭力以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好"},{"start":3504.322,"end":3517.809,"text":"以上因我們外交部部長林部長10點後有要工離席所以我們就以其他的部會機關報告請蔡英業素面來資料"},{"start":3520.66,"end":3543.949,"text":"那现在开始寻答本会委员6加2分钟非本会委员5分钟10点半发言登记截止如有临时提案请在10点半前提出11点左右处理现在请王定一委员上台致请"},{"start":3553.939,"end":3567.429,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩外交部長林佳龍我們時間有限 我儘速請教幾個問題川普發布這個授權authorize這個90天的pause"},{"start":3577.117,"end":3590.065,"text":"當然前面有講因為基礎是根據75個國家以上提出相關的談判那昨天我在問國安局的時候其實就在詢問這個可能性也就是說在它執行的前夕會不會把它分類成兩大類報復的"},{"start":3592.426,"end":3618.853,"text":"跟願意談的因為全部執行下去看起來美國自己受創也會很重所以要把它暫停下來了那這個暫停下來今天美國的股市暴漲3.5萬億美元是16年來的最高紀錄所以它產生一些效應我先請教你看它全文它提到70多個國家因為這70多個國家提出談判所以我現在授權行政部門去做一些暫停"},{"start":3620.053,"end":3645.321,"text":"這裡面有沒有明確指出這75個國家通通列入暫停你們有沒有去確認台灣是不是這些被暫停的some countries我們有沒有在那裡面有有確認了嗎是好這第一個所以已經確認台灣是暫停90天的國家行列之一那我第二個要請教的是你們有沒有做一些了解所有提出談判的國家都有被暫停嗎"},{"start":3648.146,"end":3658.154,"text":"因為我不是美方我不知道他75個名單每一個國家但是就我們部分我們台灣確認有被暫停那其他國家有沒有被暫停為什麼要了解"},{"start":3659.355,"end":3682.834,"text":"出口貿易不是只單向市場還要看競爭對手哪些國家我們也許台商間接投資在那邊設廠哪些國家可能是我們競逐同一個商品行業的競爭者他加了125%我暫停下來當然會產生競爭優劣的差距至少未來兩季會有影響所以我們目前沒有去蒐集是否所有"},{"start":3683.786,"end":3710.295,"text":"提出談判要求的國家都列入90天暫緩的行列這個不確定啦不確定 但就剛剛講基礎關稅的部分因為我們是10%嘛所以我們現在就是說比較屬於有利的地位啦那我們其他部位有沒有人知道是不是所有提出談判的國家75個國家或更多有沒有同步列入如果沒有的話麻煩蒐集一下我第二個要請教一下"},{"start":3711.375,"end":3736.67,"text":"那我們現在已經在時程上要進行談判了嘛那我看他們有的是經過USTR提出有的經過財政部提出有的經過外交單位提出啦我們台灣提出談判的要求賴清德總統的五項策略我們是跟他們哪個單位提出的我們是透過多元管道那同時展開那目前呢也都有你的多元管道是指通通都記"},{"start":3738.274,"end":3752.864,"text":"總是我們當然不管是官方或是非正式的包括我們的各個單位或者是企業界還有各種方式因為川普的這個總統他的這個決策圈牽涉到未來90天"},{"start":3754.105,"end":3764.552,"text":"因為75個國家談判關稅不是小事情當然川普用的是一個簡單粗暴的方式可能會很快但以往一個國家要談就好幾年何況是90天我們縱使現在危機暫時緩解90天我還是要擔心80天後"},{"start":3769.817,"end":3787.075,"text":"預告要怎麼樣的事情所以我們到底是經過哪一個單位掛號進去要談判那未來也許跟他談的是經由這個單位我們還是要回到正式的管道啦那我們的美處跟USTR也都有聯繫啦我坦白講USTR很慢啦"},{"start":3787.595,"end":3815.367,"text":"對 那是其中一個嘛 那怎麼去促進能夠來加速所以 這個是我們我們是經由哪個管道提出談判要求的你有多元管道多元管道去接觸那也得到確認他們有收到訊息那也呢 就我們官方的管道裡面當然美處就是我們各部會啊在那邊的代表處都有都有人嘛 各組長嘛那也跟美方的這個"},{"start":3816.307,"end":3822.433,"text":"因為機關上還是美國貿易代表還是一個最重要的要對接的窗口我們未來進行溝通談判是經由哪個單位"},{"start":3830.073,"end":3850.865,"text":"因為現在的決策方式看起來財政部部長USTR跟商務部都有影響權所以就如同林教長部長所提的我們是透過多元的管道那USTR當然一定是我們的管道之一USTR因為USTR我們過去不管談哪個項目其實都蠻慢的這個是實話你認為這90天內我們排的"},{"start":3855.208,"end":3862.788,"text":"順序會在優先順序還是還是要排隊他不會是根據掛號啦他可能根據他們美方的需求的優先順序"},{"start":3864.586,"end":3881.32,"text":"確實我想美國他是按照他自己本身的利益以及跟這些國家的貿易逆差的大小來決定順位但是因為我們在幾天之前我們已經掛商號所以我想我們一定會持續的努力爭取希望可以盡快的跟這一個有關外交部或者我們經貿談判辦你像我們注意到在"},{"start":3886.272,"end":3910.257,"text":"4月8號跟今天美國的財政部長貝森特特別有提他提了兩件事情我覺得好險他提第一個事情他說中國升級用對等對抗的方式就好像以為拿了一對二就在跟美國玩博弈他認為這是極度愚蠢因為兩邊的貿易是5比1"},{"start":3914.043,"end":3922.887,"text":"這個對等的報復對中國來講他一定輸定的牌我就想到我們台灣國內有些人本來還講說台灣政府應該一起跟著中國報復啊"},{"start":3924.537,"end":3950.205,"text":"我們是以出口為導向美國現在是我們第一大出口市場在1月份到2月份已經正式超越中港所以如果採取對等報復的時候今天公佈我們台灣就會在那一邊在125%那一邊在小額的800美元以下90%的那一邊你知道那台灣的中小企業已經全部完蛋了90天內訂單都沒有了所以國內有些負荷的中國這種呼籲的"},{"start":3951.923,"end":3970.736,"text":"坦白講我不用政治去看這件事情要嘛就外行要不然根本不把台灣以中小企業出口為主的產業體系不當一回事倒是賴總統這五項策略穩穩的把這個事情控制下來所以我這邊提醒外交部跟談判辦就是說未來90天很重要"},{"start":3971.638,"end":3988.652,"text":"我們現在是鬆一口氣我猜啦我猜今天早上台股應該也是會不錯啦那大概去排隊等單的會很高興但是人民高興是好事政府官員要去想未來90天內我們多快可以達成一定的協議"},{"start":3989.973,"end":4014.305,"text":"這個是我希望未來我們招委這邊可以再排特別在經過45天以後我們的進度就明確了對口是哪個單位談的項目是什麼東西真的是零關稅基準嗎零關稅基準我們國內產業的衝擊可以允許補貼到什麼程度這都是談判的重點不容易所以請談判辦跟外交部準備好我現在兩位請回請經濟部跟財政部"},{"start":4018.137,"end":4041.156,"text":"是 我也很好川普的宣布其實第二件重要的事情是對於暫緩90天這是一件事他裡面特別點出來說指點中國事實上對等報復的加拿大也有25%但加拿大已經宣布執行了所以他不在這一波歐盟也宣布要即將採取報復那川普認為他不叫對等報復所以好像也放了只有中國 中國磕了"},{"start":4042.037,"end":4062.118,"text":"水價外加就是原來的稅由外加125%的稅低於800美金的郵寄商品從免稅調高到90%的這個是懲罰性的一個關稅因為本來只有30現在調高到90%那我請教請教經濟部跟財政部我們現在應該要注意什麼中國這個當然中國經濟一定會受重創"},{"start":4065.677,"end":4080.943,"text":"那重創他們國家你繼續擔心我們擔心是我們台灣跟台商我們經濟部現在跟財政部應該注意什麼事情首先我跟委員報告我們要注意兩點第一個是我們台商在大陸的經營方式"},{"start":4081.927,"end":4106.383,"text":"因為某些台商雖然在川普1.0的時代已經有撤出中國市長到其他國家去佈局但是還是有部分的廠商留在中國我們的台商因為放在中國那邊要面對125%我們當然也要關心我們在海外的台灣的生意人你們關注的焦點是什麼 協助他轉移"},{"start":4106.926,"end":4131.767,"text":"我們會第一個我們還是會歡迎他回台投資因為台灣投資台灣三大方案會持續的進行這個部分我了解我待會把你summarize一下我現在要問的是對於中國小額因為我們後續的談判這一題跟前一題有關係後續的談判他以美國一定會看你有沒有成為第三方偷技術洗產地到貨的地方嗎"},{"start":4132.779,"end":4160.675,"text":"這就叫兩部經濟部跟財政部嘛對於中國那種單一品項你知道他用郵寄中港澳郵寄到美國的貨品佔他出口的90%欸那個課90%齁其實中國影響大以外他一定想辦法倒貨昨天在英國國會就開了一個會題目叫做當孩子可以買到便宜的聖誕節玩具的時候他這題目很有創意對啊他倒貨就變便宜可是父母會失去工作"},{"start":4162.23,"end":4171.702,"text":"所以我不知道經濟部跟財政部對於防止中國到貨來台灣不管是以台灣為市場或者以台灣為傾銷或者金額台灣要洗出去有沒有什麼具體做法"},{"start":4173.596,"end":4201.527,"text":"是 各位委員報告其實中國的對等關稅稅率擴增的越高中國的貨品利用台灣的稀產地的機會就越高你們有什麼具體做法是 這個部分事實上從川普第一任開始我們海關就開始在執行違規轉運的強力的查緝但是因應這個形勢越來越嚴重那我們海關這個部分已經有提出一個事前預防事中審查"},{"start":4202.247,"end":4217.338,"text":"我建議經濟部跟財政部第一個是對於在海外台商要回國投資或者輔導去對我們有利的地方投資比如說我們要降低對美國增加降低壁壘增加就業機會要做輔導措施"},{"start":4218.999,"end":4245.093,"text":"第二個特別對中國商品經由小額郵寄包裹進到台灣的部分不管是以台灣目的或者像你剛才講的是轉口的要有一些具體可執行的方案否則談判辦去談一定會被ㄉㄧㄤ的那我後續就不再問了那我提醒央行請你注意這個時候你們是管兩個綠你不用出來了匯率跟利率請把這兩項控穩這時候利率不能動"},{"start":4246.153,"end":4268.948,"text":"這時候利率一動你看當年市集房貸我這樣講你就懂了所以這個時候雙綠控穩利率匯率請務必讓總裁了解這個時候要控穩我們不政府去manipulate但是請控穩來以上謝謝主席好謝謝王定一委員發言那接下來有陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":4293.596,"end":4300.483,"text":"有请经济部请外交部好了外交部先外交部领部长先经济部稍后谢谢"},{"start":4306.266,"end":4330.103,"text":"部長早安委員長在這個國際動態變化的情勢裡面唯一不變的就是持續變化因此對於我們政府對於這個有關關稅的挑戰如何因應這其實就是一個大挑戰因為我們沒有辦法做預應所以我們在這邊提出來那如何預應呢預應是full spectrum是全面向的"},{"start":4330.663,"end":4348.127,"text":"他没有办法对单一问题做出细节因此我在今天拜读了经济部还有外交部还有其他部会的文件以后那有些东西对我们来讲是一种互动学习有些部分我用下面的方式提供一个建言请参考"},{"start":4353.367,"end":4374.639,"text":"這個根據您的這個報告文內啊就是4月6號總統向國人提出的五項應變政策以及我們提出的具體方法啊我這邊這個文字就不足以再走一遍我把它列出來提供出來給大家看一下這張圖啊就是我們解析啊強權競合的作業流程圖"},{"start":4376.226,"end":4387.2,"text":"川普就任以来比较过去他从45任再加上拜登46任到现在47任他所有运用的方法手段产生的巨变都在这里面"},{"start":4389.761,"end":4414.74,"text":"所以如果你只是用经济问题用军事问题用外交问题你是切开来个别谈你可以看出来他前面提出的关税以及后面所出的这个图里面不管他的对等公平惩罚两层四层六层八层这是随他讲的九十天十五天十天随他讲这个都在变所以我们如果没有一个long term strategy"},{"start":4415.287,"end":4433.623,"text":"把外交經濟軍事政治面涵蓋進來像這個圖表列出來的退出國際組織廢除不合理的條約關閉領事館持續貿易戰晶片法案分裂市場脫不脫鉤今天裡面講的中美競合"},{"start":4438.386,"end":4450.566,"text":"這是competition跟cooperation才產生的這個competition那就表示他不會脫鉤了嘛所以在這個情勢判斷裡面他很多在談可以把底線露出來但是明天又變化了"},{"start":4451.508,"end":4477.229,"text":"所以中美貿易對話他是不會斷的那美國跟所有國家的對話也不會斷但是為什麼先出狠招這叫引蛇出洞先看你們有什麼招然後我再把你們做區隔區分所以他巴拿馬的問題叫他退出一帶一路但高層領導直接我跟某某是好朋友雖然今天常態性的行政對話中斷元首可以對話"},{"start":4478.513,"end":4496.008,"text":"对完话以后明天就可以变化退出气候协定退出世界卫生组织退出人权组织退出教科文退出UNESCO随他讲同一个时间法律施压同时跟菲律宾跟日本军事演习"},{"start":4497.554,"end":4525.269,"text":"表态所以这个scope就显示出来了如果我们没有一个完整的战略观而只是针对单一问题做反应你永远在react可是你的手头的筹码跟你的时间是有限的90天内要把所有东西分析出来去对口能够排序我们面临是一个挑战所以同样的我们的行政院排出了这个条款这是正面的"},{"start":4526.325,"end":4552.99,"text":"我们也肯定的但是从负面来看你的风险在哪里我给一个方法论美国开启全球贸易制裁与中共竞合下我外交布局机因应没有预应这一次大家看到了台积电的特质正好把地缘经济地缘政治地缘战略整个结合一起你看这个图里面这个供应链是互为上下层而不是可以剪断切割的"},{"start":4555.731,"end":4575.765,"text":"所以地緣經濟你考慮的人口位置貿易源頭產業鏈路地緣戰略這裡面美方考慮的如果海峽起衝突台積電會不會被摧毀全世界會不會斷斷的晶圓的來源所以軍事戰略威澤嚇阻維護利益另外地緣政治國家利益合縱連橫雙軌雙標所以雙軌雙標就是在"},{"start":4580.083,"end":4608.146,"text":"这个川普总统里面他用的很厉害的就是dual strategy double standard我跟不同的人不同的标准不同的谈但是呢我可以把它交换所以从这个里面我们看出一个结果我们需要有一个国安战略国家安全战略的引领全民群策群力形塑寒藏牵动邻国的利益营造区域平衡巩固贸易源头强化产业的链路多元生产生存的缝隙"},{"start":4609.246,"end":4636.776,"text":"以有利的地缘的政治经济科技环境进而善于外交的布局精进军事能量要运用以小牵大虚实联动正齐相生的合众联盟多轨并进的策略维护国家安全利益所以我们这次看到这个英法德国对于这个这个贸易的关税的问题跟这个所谓的西班牙跟意大利是不同步的"},{"start":4637.847,"end":4656.722,"text":"我們看到了一個什麼同路不同道同道不同德同德不同心同心不同人同人不同調所以不要用口號來喊同路人根本不重要太low end了你去看他的價值觀去看他的法律所以我們今天尊重的是我們講的民主"},{"start":4657.677,"end":4677.264,"text":"人权法治可是在这个国际变动的局势里面这三个它的优秀不一样它不是同步重视的所以基于这个考虑我们需要一个长期的战略跨部会的沟通协调这非常重要那刚刚讲经过多元管道这是一个正面看法可是feedback以后的如何fusing"},{"start":4678.024,"end":4687.406,"text":"要收斂这是另外一个挑战因此我把今天做一个最后的结论就是外交部在提出针对总统五项里面有八个做法"},{"start":4688.294,"end":4710.431,"text":"可是呢你必須要有主觀客觀微觀宏觀樂觀悲觀前瞻反思同時要考慮到這是政府還是政黨的政策這是動態淨碳輿論學術經濟國安是個案還是通案是科技還是醫療今天還講到藥品的問題是全面還是局部長期短期所以你會發現產生多少變化量啊"},{"start":4714.839,"end":4726.851,"text":"512个变化量所以当你分析的参数参考参数越多我们犯下错误决策的几率就越低不是谁绝对对谁绝对对的错而是我们现在要做"},{"start":4728.035,"end":4752.363,"text":"避險為先 持隱保態 要長期規劃 統籌執行所以這裡面cover到了目的 方法 手段你設定的目標 選擇的方法 運用的手段包括對美關係 兩岸關係 國際協商 內外折衝你是要晶圓支撐台灣 你要確保能源你要社會的全任性 你要國防的戰力強所以在這個裡面 它已經超出了單一"},{"start":4753.143,"end":4780.929,"text":"外交經濟或者是它是一個完整的國安考量我特別用這個圖像請這個部長做一個參考部長請您指導好 這個委員的高見真的我受益良多特別是把八項具體的做法一一對應那麼確實我們有一個總和外交那搭配總統他的大戰略今天的這一個彭博社的這一個文章很清楚這個路徑圖"},{"start":4782.265,"end":4792.662,"text":"所以川普我們要對齊他他在講什麼我們要聽的對再來我們事實上要去對接他"},{"start":4794.517,"end":4816.235,"text":"比如他的貿易政策他的投資政策他的所有的政策都有長年的主張跟最近的宣布再來我覺得就是到對應你要有措施所以這個從對齊對接到對應那我們才能夠去這個就算是一個國際的賽局那因為美中的抗衡"},{"start":4817.478,"end":4843.354,"text":"所以使這一次對我們有威脅也有機會因為紅色供應鏈跟美國會是兩套不同的系統而台灣在所謂的非紅的供應鏈裡面我們有不可或缺的角色而這個供應鏈不只是純粹從所謂的投資或者是貿易它也是一個安全的戰略它甚至是一個高科技在包括未來的AI跟晶片上面的一個"},{"start":4844.415,"end":4863.41,"text":"美中的抗衡所以台灣呢我們怎麼樣去對應包括美國包括中國包括其他各國這個就是我們剛剛委員提到的一個戰略我們會根據委員的這個方法論好好再來檢視我們現在做的然後予以做必要的這一個增補或者是調整"},{"start":4866.367,"end":4885.716,"text":"謝謝部長我們也會全力支持我們國家對外的政策那麼在這個情勢下就是說資源有限時間有限我們整合作業是一個非常重要的以上提出建言謝謝部長謝謝陳永康委員上台質詢接下來有羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":4894.792,"end":4897.222,"text":"謝謝主席 有請林佳龍部長還有經貿辦"},{"start":4909.313,"end":4925.778,"text":"部長早安今天凌晨確實是一個非常戲劇性又非常勁爆的一個大轉彎我看到美股大漲那台股一開盤就狂漲媒體用這個滿血復活來形容我們今天的這個台股"},{"start":4926.798,"end":4940.347,"text":"那美國除了對中國呢的進口關稅提高到125%那其他的而且是馬上生效那其他75個國家呢就你有去跟美國聯繫的你有去談的你沒有採取報復行動的其實呢他就"},{"start":4944.169,"end":4965.74,"text":"維持這個10%甚至給你三個月的這個緩衝的這個時間那當然一開始今天我們的定語委員有在提到就是說我們到底有沒有在這75個國家裡面可是我今天有看到林部長你有提到說其實我們都已經有掛號進去了所以也就表示說其實我們就是在這75個國家裡面而且我們就是維持這10%而且我們三個月的這個緩衝期嘛是不是這樣子"},{"start":4970.302,"end":4984.547,"text":"對所以這是非常非常明確的那當然我們也看到就是在一天 昨天一天之內我們看到了美國祭出了 同時祭出了這個棍子跟這個胡蘿蔔那當然我們也看到了它的這個針對性所以說它想要這個除了貿易逆差之外 想它對這個中國的這個針對性是非常非常的強的"},{"start":4993.45,"end":5019.147,"text":"那當然我們也看到川普這兩天的操作也讓未來呢說實在的不確定也是增加了非常的多所以三個月你說很長嗎其實沒有啊到底我們三個月內能不能進到這個談判的這個順序裡面我們到底排的這個順序是在前面還是後面其實這個也是讓我們非常的擔心那當然因為川普的不確定性當然三個月內如果75個國家還沒有談判完畢的話我在想這有沒有機會"},{"start":5023.89,"end":5049.691,"text":"如果我們排了三個月後我們有沒有機會還是一樣可以坐上這個談判桌因為機會是給準備好的人我們做了充分的準備川普總統上任到現在80天那未來還有90天我們可以談判那我跟委員報告事實上從川普當選的那一天我們總統就指示行政院我們已經針對台美經貿的工作尤其是談判做了很多分工"},{"start":5050.211,"end":5078.849,"text":"所以最近為什麼那麼快速的可以盤點完再做一些調整因為他現在政策很具體那這個時候我們跟他從管道已經建立到實質內容所以到底是誰會先談或談得好不好取決於你的準備也就是你要跟他談判的內容你看越南的例子越南罪長講所謂的零關稅的這個作為他跟美國談判可是你看美方的官員他馬上就講說不是用講的"},{"start":5079.75,"end":5106.669,"text":"因為這裡面涉及到的很多的不管是你關稅怎麼樣去降哪些包括一些貿易的障礙他就指出很多的這些貿易障礙也要排除所以我們要談的包括說你要去讓雙方面的貿易能夠比較公平的話一方面是我們要增加它的進口"},{"start":5107.811,"end":5132.979,"text":"那同時呢我們怎麼樣去投資它那就不用透過我們的出口而是直接包括投資美國或採購這個方式很簡單就是這個怎麼樣去出口到美國的能夠相對它進口的我們能夠把這個貿易上任的時候我們就已經在做準備了嘛對不對所以我們在每一樣做的包含經售的這個經購的這個部分也是嘛"},{"start":5133.599,"end":5153.959,"text":"對 我跟委員簡單講一下比如我們有一個聯力方程式的話那每一個變數啊我們怎麼樣加起來之後可以縮短貿易事實上台美的貿易是去年2024史上最高是因為我們透過像AI Server或顯卡或這些電子資通訊半導體的產品那類似是歷史新高那隨著我們投資美國它會下降"},{"start":5154.86,"end":5170.733,"text":"同樣我們降低關稅或是比較對等的時候他進口台灣會增加所以這個公式其實是很容易去加加減減之後就能夠告訴川普政府說我們要做什麼事會有什麼結果所以川普政府的官員都說你要告訴我你要做什麼數字是什麼"},{"start":5172.614,"end":5183.87,"text":"他不是要一個口號那個如果說輕弱就會寡性啊到時候也會造成可能更大的一個不利的反應所以我們的這個工作同仁真的是沒面沒力尤其是4月2號那一天之後啊到5號到9號到今天"},{"start":5188.556,"end":5200.247,"text":"那我也可以跟委員報告就是說我們基本上他們提出的問題啊我們大概都有事先做準備那已經做了重新的盤點跟調整那現在就整個上談判桌就實質的項目跟內容一項一項來談我們是非常的以務實的態度而且是相當有準備"},{"start":5207.794,"end":5225.224,"text":"那至於說他這個關稅既是目的也是手段他當然希望能夠平衡關稅可是他也希望用這個做槓桿那他要的是什麼那我們怎麼樣不會陷入被動而是我們藉由他要的去達到我們要的這也就是為什麼是這個投資這個美國我們要組成這個台灣投資美國隊"},{"start":5229.929,"end":5244.198,"text":"那同時我們也期待美國投資台灣隊所以我剛剛在委員問題裡面有提到說我們不只是台美我們到第三國瓜地馬拉也好菲律賓也好都可以一起去投資強化台美經貿的合作跟我們的韌性"},{"start":5245.31,"end":5269.064,"text":"所以簡單的講就是說我們就是看美國他需要什麼那我們針對他的問題然後我們跟他去做這方面就是主軸我們就是先拉出來他要的是什麼我們能夠提供後續能夠提供什麼嗎那再來還有一點我想我們始終還是要坐上這個談判桌剛剛部長你有提到的所謂的零關稅像越南他一開始就提出說OK他們就要從零關稅開始談我們的總統也提到說我們要從零關稅開始談"},{"start":5275.708,"end":5299.965,"text":"那當然這個部分我們還是必須要回到之前我們跟拜登政府所簽訂的台美21世紀貿易倡議這個部分那這部分在去年底的時候已經生效了那現在好了第一階段對第一階段去年生效是沒錯那當初我們跟台美希望說利用這個堆積木的方式來堆疊那希望成為未來FTA的一個基礎吧我們本來想說用這樣子的方式那現在會不會就是因為這一波高額關稅的這個談判我們直接把這個過程給拿掉了"},{"start":5305.188,"end":5319.574,"text":"那直接進入談用這個FTA的模式來談會嗎這個部分可能待會請這個委員問一個很重要的問題因為這個台美21期貿易倡議是拜登政府提出以後會用這個名稱我們不確定但第一階段12項裡面的5項已經達成也會執行那這個是屬於這是非關稅的一些我們怎麼去做貿易的一個台美的一個合作"},{"start":5334.264,"end":5360.515,"text":"那這些項目其實在我們推動的時候就幫助我們其實今天我們為什麼準備那麼快跟當時的這個台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判我們台灣已經做很多條式所以就不會從零開始所以我想前面的這個堆積木是有一定效果可是川普比較像是他比較是想要建立一個模他是目標先講出來你要答應一起來做"},{"start":5361.676,"end":5372.006,"text":"然後再慢慢去蓋所以我覺得每一個人的領導風格不一樣所以我們要了解這個川普總統有他作為一個我想他是一個談判高手我們怎麼樣跟他對上我常常講說對齊對接到對應那最好是我們能夠對等的雙贏"},{"start":5379.233,"end":5393.86,"text":"台灣不要只是為了被迫回應我們一直在回應中去掌握我們這個主動然後我們要達到的我們的國家目標然後甚至路徑圖我們也告訴他們了所以那個總統所提到的五項或是你看對應這個川普政府裡面的這些經濟的官員"},{"start":5398.382,"end":5415.536,"text":"他都列得很清楚怎麼樣會對等貿易有貢獻的項目是什麼那我們有沒有去一一去救那些項目我們看怎麼去努力那這是要台美一起努力不是只有台灣不是我們這樣而已事實上我們台美關稅的這個順差並不是很大"},{"start":5416.417,"end":5437.612,"text":"他是用這一個所謂貿易逆差作為一個類似來談判的籌碼的時候那我們就是要先上談判桌你沒有上談判桌的話你再多的準備都沒有用那我們現在有一個第一步我們建立了一個溝通管道那也列入他談判的對象那我們就把我們的內容談判所有的give and take所有的這一些互相的策略的互動我們要把它一一的提出來那跟他能夠得到互惠雙贏的結果"},{"start":5445.718,"end":5450.523,"text":"林副長說得很好 我想經貿辦是不是要補充 你需要補充的部分嗎"},{"start":5451.585,"end":5455.508,"text":"我簡單補充一下就是針對這個台美21世紀貿易倡議他理論上因為美國川普總統有說有說明對於他現在的所有FTA或雙邊協定他們會去檢視未來要持續推動的可能性以及如何去強化那目前他沒有還沒有提到我們台美這個倡議他要如何處理但是從我們經貿辦的角度我們會努力去推動希望可以朝向未來如果要進具體協商的話那我想"},{"start":5479.102,"end":5505.256,"text":"台美21世紀倡議我們現在委員這邊所列出來的這些貿易便捷化服務業國內規章反貪腐良好法制作業確實都是美國這一次在認定對等關稅它去所謂非關稅貿易障礙它去評估的來源所以我們有台美這絕對都是基礎對 所以它創造了很好的基礎所以我們會用這個去跟美國進一步的爭取OK 好 以上謝謝"},{"start":5506.963,"end":5527.876,"text":"好謝謝羅敏林委員的發言下面我們請黃仁委員來質詢請問主席跟委員是你要先他時間到了你要先離開這是好謝謝"},{"start":5534.522,"end":5562.125,"text":"有請經濟部江次長江次長請今天不談你的專案報告我是談現在非常重要重要在台東東部現在發生的事情這幾天清明節之後有好幾天都已經在各部落裡面都開始他們的頭目部落會議在抗爭抗議是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":5564.352,"end":5574.248,"text":"今天我們講的是東風東風能源有限公司在台東長濱跟成功泰瑪里大武這一帶"},{"start":5576.395,"end":5601.314,"text":"來做一個說明說明什麼 要建蓋我們的風電在我們的太平洋的東海岸裡面而且現在已經弄得沸沸揚揚季節風電 還我家園台東的長濱成功太五大五是天賜的美麗的福地因為偏遠所以才能夠一直為別開發"},{"start":5602.608,"end":5632.166,"text":"也因為邊陲才能保有國際級的自然景象自然景觀海岸的美應該是全台灣的驕傲應該是所有人讚嘆疼惜怎麼會有偏鄉人口少就被直接規劃成陸域風力發電的區域請問次長長濱成功泰馬里要設置陸域風力發電機這件事情是不是已經定案了"},{"start":5633.691,"end":5650.327,"text":"報告委員我們要任何設置這種陸域發電的話必須要跟當地的政府還有各相關的利害幹線都在做溝通所以現在應該還是在一個溝通的階段而且他們是強行的而且不定時的"},{"start":5650.948,"end":5680.088,"text":"然後呢第二個他並沒有邀請我們台東縣政府包含地方官員包含地方的民意代表共同來商議是不是要設立一個風電在我們的東海岸這是一個非常嚴重的事情所以我這邊特別要講昨天他們也偷偷的到台東縣大五鄉在那邊做一個說明會今天又要辦一個說明會麻煩你查一下好不好是"},{"start":5680.973,"end":5695.225,"text":"那今天他們要舉辦第二次的說明會但是台東的縣政府及所有的民意代表都不知道請問東城是否向經濟部合備召開說明會的事情"},{"start":5696.277,"end":5719.03,"text":"有沒有報告委員這個部分我不清楚不過我可以回去馬上了解你趕快清查經濟部是否同意為向地方縣市政府申請的狀況之下就召開說明會這種方式這種強行的硬幹的手段令人不齒所以本席要求經濟部要徹查徹查到底"},{"start":5720.951,"end":5743.571,"text":"到底他們現在是個人行為還是已經有在某種默契跟你們的經濟部裡面有合備然後讓他們為所欲為在台東開說明會而且並沒有讓部落的人接受要在台東開立風電這是非常嚴重 過去裡面我們可以追溯"},{"start":5744.502,"end":5761.899,"text":"我們過去在2008年桃園新屋鄉首先發難2011年北海岸山之鄉也爆發怒火在2012年英華威公司在苗栗這個"},{"start":5765.014,"end":5792.827,"text":"苗栗也是進行了強行的動工所以造成了一個反風電的一個風暴所以這個部分你一定要記得記得要查查到底他們是為什麼為什麼還在那個地方而且媒體都有報導說要將在台東東海要設立風電那我想請教如果是這樣的話如果是這樣的話"},{"start":5797.146,"end":5826.204,"text":"東海岸成功泰瑪麗大舞就是天賦造舞的藝術創作那例如政府不傾聽民意以其閒來勒馬強行硬幹的話本席將號召台東上萬的鄉親上北北上總統府行政院包含經濟部進行史上最大的抗爭你不要不信今天"},{"start":5826.804,"end":5854.891,"text":"你要經過部落議會如果有涉及到台東原住民的傳統領域包含海域法的話必須要經過部落會議的召開而且要進行以上三場的公聽會次長你來回應一下是謝謝委員的關心我們回去會就委員的提案我們會回去進行這個"},{"start":5857.196,"end":5882.631,"text":"討論然後也會向長官報告委員的關切我們強力的季節的封店黃武嘉園以上我要提出有五大點在究竟這套封店制度背後的結構性問題為何本席提出五大五大的問題請政府重視的民意第一缺乏公眾"},{"start":5884.392,"end":5887.494,"text":"公眾參與機制應從選址階段就廣增意見第二用補償換開發人權被漠視應將居民權益納入審查程序"},{"start":5899.702,"end":5919.836,"text":"第三,切乏區域規劃,尊重既有使用者,落實沿海空間的規劃。第四,法制基礎不完備,應制定正式法規命令。第五,跨部會整合不足,權責失衡,須有更高的統籌單位。"},{"start":5922.377,"end":5946.471,"text":"以上在這個部分本席強調政府應制定計劃逐步邁向非核家營而不是在時勢急急忙忙用盡一切的手段讓我們的鹽田 漁溫 濕地 海岸遭到難以恢復的破壞所以更犧牲了鄉村 漁民以及當地民眾的權益所以"},{"start":5947.071,"end":5975.301,"text":"第一個業者應該要先從地方政府申請若地方同意申請後會再送中央審查核備那業者動工前必須先辦理說明會二選址限制若是政府公告之生態敏感區域那絕對禁止設置那我的建議是如果業者向地方政府申請地方政府應該要求業者"},{"start":5976.941,"end":5994.27,"text":"舉辦三場的公聽會所以這是非常非常嚴重而且破壞了整個東海岸的大自然今天我們核能電廠不辦光電就造害了公害台南嘉義就是一個例子"},{"start":5994.89,"end":6010.483,"text":"那現在要想到我們台東東海岸裡面想要動這個頭腦我們絕對拒絕而且我們絕對會責成所有東海岸的鄉親來上北上來抗議"},{"start":6012.945,"end":6030.997,"text":"市長你要特別把我的話重視告訴給部長絕對不能夠強行硬幹這個事情好不好報告委員因為這個台東縣政府是地方電業的主管機關所以我們應該要地方政府先行的來同意同意之後呢你們要傻傻"},{"start":6031.397,"end":6046.933,"text":"到底東風東風今天憑什麼會在那個地方說明會憑什麼是你們已經有你們有允許還是有核備還是跟縣政府有核備你們查查一下好不好是那把這個報告提出給我好以上謝謝黃榮委員我們下面請馬文君委員發言"},{"start":6072.555,"end":6078.325,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請外交部現在是次長請陳次長還有經濟部"},{"start":6090.504,"end":6115.672,"text":"你好謝謝次長今天我們主要大概是針對我們關稅的這個部分來做一個專報那美國總統川普他在宣布對等關稅的這個政策的時候其實搞得全世界人仰馬翻雖然現在暫時有90天的緩衝期不過川普大概也等著世界各國"},{"start":6116.452,"end":6119.796,"text":"去跟他疏成去跟他談判所以談判大概也沒有辦法談什麼大概他的主導性還是非常強就這一點我們的談判小組已經出發了嗎"},{"start":6131.542,"end":6152.749,"text":"我們在跟美國的所有的溝通感到暢通無阻具體的這個施程我們還是基於雙方的誠信原則我們想是說還是有一定程度上也不便揭露的地方我們已經就像我們部長之前回覆委員的話一樣就是說我們的已經掛上號了"},{"start":6153.669,"end":6162.892,"text":"好 那麼我們隨時Ready可以去跟他進行這個相關的談判在等美方的時間 通知時間我們會主動 我們會很主動的來進行相關的這個準備那麼也隨時準備可以進行他有對象嘛 我們"},{"start":6171.095,"end":6193.686,"text":"對象就好像我們OTM所說的一樣包括美國財政部美國的商業部美國的USTR這都是我們主要的對口單位我們現在看到談判小組雖然其實我們涵蓋了國安體系、外交體系、經貿談判辦公室還有其他的業界、學界我們好像都有納入"},{"start":6195.567,"end":6204.392,"text":"當然他談判的這個本質上面我們有政府體系那代表的人物當然吳釗燮秘書長他已經出發了嘛這我不便透露"},{"start":6210.806,"end":6234.258,"text":"這個好像大家都知道啊現在是因為你該做的就算這個有什麼好不便透露的你如果可以做吳釗燮身為過去是外交部長他現在是國安會的秘書長你不用特別說他跟誰見面可是你本來就要因應那出去就出去了這有什麼好不便透露的我現在看到的是因為去年8月"},{"start":6235.439,"end":6239.201,"text":"吳釗燮秘書長他是跟林佳龍部長一起出去訪美他也是用比較特殊的管道那現在他已經出發可是這一次我們林佳龍部長是沒有出去的那對我們因為包括我們在美方給我們的"},{"start":6255.389,"end":6258.051,"text":"訊息我相信他報給就是我們的駐美的代表處其實當時是給什麼樣的資訊可以讓賴總統他說讓大家放心然後我們的卓院長讓大家安心入睡甚至民進黨的總召他都可以大剌剌的說我們大概只會10%的關稅"},{"start":6278.712,"end":6304.355,"text":"完全讓大家隔天一覺醒來都靜呆了所以其實我們說有史以來關係最好或者我們有掌握什麼樣的狀況顯然不是那你現在如果說像這樣的狀況之下我們要去談判已經有建議像張忠謀可以納入我們的談判的一個小組裡面有沒有可能有沒有考量"},{"start":6305.317,"end":6321.662,"text":"委員的意見我們都是會這個向內傳達那麼當然最後變成談判的這個決定那麼外交部是負責收集相關的資訊提出相關的好的建議那麼剛才委員指導的這個相關的東西我們都有"},{"start":6322.302,"end":6328.364,"text":"第一個我們每處都有充分掌握相關的資訊我們的資訊是完全錯誤的所以不要再拿出來談這個部分因為你出來的資訊是跟大家天然地別差的太多所以我們現在講的是為了我們台灣整體的利益尤其這個關稅對我們打擊非常的大台灣的經濟高度依賴外貿"},{"start":6346.411,"end":6351.652,"text":"我們在2023年其實我們貿易額是GDP的99%我相信這個在座的各位都非常的清楚所以這個談判小組其實是非常重要的因為我們不希望說你到時候我們的談判小組去只是去聽然後去全盤的接收你一點談判的能力都沒有的情況之下我們現在很多國人會擔心因為以川普的個性他甚至像越南"},{"start":6374.477,"end":6387.896,"text":"他直接去了他直接最早他表達要零關稅他根本覺得遠遠不足而且非常不屑所以對於我們來說我們今天談判的代表也非常的重要因為他攸關我們未來不管整體的經濟貿易"},{"start":6391.761,"end":6393.703,"text":"或者我們未來的產業發展它都有很大的影響那既然我們在APEC的時候其實都可以請張忠謀去參加那如果這個談判對於我們來說因為第一對業界最了解的對產業界最了解的對整個我們半導體或者其他國家"},{"start":6411.255,"end":6428.459,"text":"整個全球的脈動很了解的非他莫屬所以其實他是一個很好的人才當然也有人建議蔡英文前總統那可是他的身份不曉得適不適合那不知道可是我們還是希望台灣可以派出最強而有力的一個談判的代表來爭取我們這一個困境的解決好不好"},{"start":6433.48,"end":6453.665,"text":"是,剛才委員的這個建議我們一定傳達給決策者。第二個是說,也請委員放心,就是說在關於談判上面來說的話,其實我想針對這個撤補的關稅,大概就是說我們要做好所有的功課,然後要做好所有的萬全的準備,各種的可能性。"},{"start":6454.425,"end":6480.218,"text":"就外交部的立場來說,我們所有的訊息都有透過各種的管道來掌握那不可否認的,因為川普總統他的談判的風格那麼很多的時候我們掌握,但是說他還是像昨天的突然宣布90天暫緩實施的時候其實很多時候可能連他的格言都不一定能夠完全掌握"},{"start":6480.758,"end":6483.722,"text":"那麼所以是說這個談判上面一定會有一定的彈性但是做好功課雖然川普總統他的決策因為他事先都已經預告了他昨天這個90天其實可能是比較很多人是比較意外的可是他在關稅要課徵重稅這個不是後來才講"},{"start":6500.262,"end":6519.297,"text":"可是我們掌握的訊息顯然是不對的所以我想沒有什麼任何理由在這裡提說我們有什麼準備而且有做功課如果有做功課而且甚至知道說他可能會對我們課這麼重的稅因為我們台積電都已經送去了他還對我們至少中國2%"},{"start":6521.459,"end":6523.16,"text":"我們遠遠比日本、韓國我們其他有競爭力的國家我們都比他高得多耶所以我們未來談判你還要再送出什麼我們已經送了台積電你又要買武器然後又要零關稅然後對於他的所有的"},{"start":6537.532,"end":6540.453,"text":"採購還要大力的加碼我們還能給什麼所以如果回來還是告訴我們就是這些那我覺得那還不如不要談判所以在這裡我們還是很慎重的去提醒因為今天這幾天我相信所有的部會包括經濟部現在也在然後還有其他的部會其實他牽動非常廣泛所以在這裡我們還是要提醒尤其算"},{"start":6564.139,"end":6573.704,"text":"外交部長不在不過我們還是希望這個部分外交部還是要掌握最大的一個能量因為其實你們應該跟美方的脈動不然你告訴國人一直以來告訴國人說我們是台美有史以來關係最好的我們都看不出好在哪裡我們吃了美豬然後我們現在他甚至可能還要求我們的標示不可以有明顯的標示那當時對我們全國人民所講的話那個"},{"start":6593.974,"end":6604.101,"text":"你現在智利進來的櫻桃或者其他的日本的蘋果他都很清楚的標示是哪裡來的產地啊就像我們國內要求我們的農民要履歷產地是一樣的啊那為什麼美國如果他要求我們這樣我們會妥協嗎我覺得我們都會全力跟美國溝通經濟部講一下這個部分會不會妥協"},{"start":6617.519,"end":6623.405,"text":"因為這個是涉及的談判的策略所以我們一定會站在什麼叫談判的策略如果你今天在這裡沒有辦法對我們國家或者我們所有人民或者我們食品的安全你過去對人民的承諾你現在去談判你就要強力的要求因為這是為人民把關你今天其他的產品"},{"start":6638.641,"end":6648.285,"text":"人家都沒有問題的他都可以標示啊你來自智利啊澳洲啊紐西蘭的起義國啊什麼大家都標示的非常清楚如果你這個沒有讓人家有疑慮你幹嘛擔心人家標示那如果應該要標示對哪一個國家都一樣所以這個部分我們在這裡提出特別的要求"},{"start":6657.228,"end":6658.971,"text":"我們應該要把關的應該要堅持的我們希望談判小組一定要堅持到底可不可以做到我們一定會去盡我們的盡全力去積極的爭取產業的利益那另外我們在這已經提醒了另外"},{"start":6674.813,"end":6694.642,"text":"賴總統針對這個美國關稅政策他有提出五大因應的策略那剛剛我們提到很多可是其中有一個他就是拖中入北這是好像早上有特別提出來的一個方向所以拖中入北大概就是當然就是希望重心不要放在中國大陸的這些投資那希望可以入北你們的看法怎麼樣是拖中入北的"},{"start":6702.006,"end":6723.954,"text":"他的這個過程其實是很正面的也就是說台灣可以用自己的經濟實力來透過這個這個立足台灣同時呢要佈局全世界那我們經濟部的話會協助廠商來做全球的佈局例如呢像這些我想請教一下因為剛剛你在業務報告的時候有大概念了一下可是當時在2019年"},{"start":6728.155,"end":6742.147,"text":"中美貿易大戰的時候那時候政府也希望因為免於受到很大的衝擊所以台商自己本身也很清楚所以都從中國把它往外移那時候其實政府推的是新南向那現在新南向呢不適合了"},{"start":6745.29,"end":6749.173,"text":"你現在又要脫中入北那你過去的新南向呢新南向有什麼問題嗎好不容易供應鏈才漸漸的落實完成那個不像我們一般要搬家他那個廠房投資各方面還有人力的培訓他在一個地方如果可以安定下來過了六年現在好不容易慢慢達成這樣你現在"},{"start":6768.567,"end":6777.955,"text":"又有一個新的說要入北而且你入北的國家通常都是不管在人工的成本各方面的投資成本上面都是比較高的以台灣的實力或者經濟部更沒有條件去說你們政府可以給這些廠商做什麼因為我覺得你在政策上面你沒有辦法延續你必須告訴大家新南向為什麼不行了"},{"start":6792.932,"end":6810.043,"text":"報告委員其實出了我們台商除了去新南向國家之外有部分有回台灣甚至也有我們的電子產業聚落現在也有到墨西哥那經濟部呢在去年在歐洲也設立了這個投資服務中心"},{"start":6810.583,"end":6813.645,"text":"因為我們要的不是投資服務中心我們要的是你政府的政策要有一貫性你過去在新南向這一個部分我現在要知道的是新南向有沒有發生什麼樣的問題因為大家已經都投資在那裡了剛剛說的墨西哥當然墨西哥以現在美國的關稅部的那種"},{"start":6830.038,"end":6834.859,"text":"的政策來說他可能算是比較好一點的可是他隨時在變動而且川普他現在掌理美國他隨時都在改變我剛剛提到的如果我們去投資像剛剛講到的托中入北這些北方的民主國家我們號稱的民主國家他的投資成本是很高的這對於我們整個產業是不是有利我希望可以有一個具體的數據資料再提供給本席還有我們委員好不好是"},{"start":6861.706,"end":6866.77,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝馬文君委員上台質詢接下來有沈不揚委員上台質詢謝謝主席齁這個有請這個經濟部這個次長還有這個副署長謝謝"},{"start":6890.035,"end":6890.322,"text":"委員好"},{"start":6891.071,"end":6920.471,"text":"你好那這個呢這個關稅的問題其實呢這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多啦那我個人是感受到非常的痛心為什麼呢就是因為這幾天關稅說真的它本來就是一個長期的談判但是我們可以看到在我們這一邊即使是在立法院不斷的有人用這樣的一個方式去炒作這樣的一個政治議題甚至呢可以看到有人說什麼這個在野省下當時多少的預算就是為了當救命的基金"},{"start":6921.232,"end":6936.014,"text":"叫台積電聯電要來這邊報告啦等等之類的我覺得這種政治操作其實說真的讓我們這些正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去這一點是讓我覺得非常的難過那更不要講說在外面很多政治人物就一直在講說我們要跟中國市場融合"},{"start":6937.856,"end":6956.053,"text":"這個國民黨的總召都還在講說這一個是不是要中國的遊客這個趙少康其實也有講一樣的話那我現在比較擔心的事情就是說呢我們現在是要出去談判的人我們也是雖然現在也有這個90天那我們要出去談的時候對於我們這個國內的聲音其實不是很一致"},{"start":6956.973,"end":6983.943,"text":"雖然現在執政黨像剛剛這個前面都有提到不管是這個全美的21倡議啦還有剛剛定宇我們有提到的就是說目前我們總統的這個談話啦投書啦這些事情我們本來是穩定的但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿啦這一群人呢等於一直在講說我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題啊這一件事情呢會形成我們很大的一個loss因為不管怎麼講今天有兩件事情第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決"},{"start":6984.723,"end":7012.325,"text":"所以呢我看到總統的投書有特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購但第二個問題最重要的就還是經濟安全那經濟安全這件事情呢目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅一二五那如果說我們今天決定假設有國內有一直很大的一個聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起這會是我們非常大的危機因為這就等於你沒有去加入這一個非紅的供應鏈等於你不重視經濟的安全"},{"start":7012.985,"end":7037.838,"text":"所以我從這一個我去年就已經問過部長經濟部部長那我在總質詢也有再問過一次那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關還有跟算能科技有關的這個習產地的問題那這邊呢我想問的就是這一個不過在這個之前我還要再講一下就是我覺得這是一個核心問題我覺得一定要去注意就是這個去年這一個呢也是陳韻甄委員跟陳學生委員他們呢提了這個離島建設條例裡面的第六項"},{"start":7041.417,"end":7059.767,"text":"他有提到說這一個呢中國的這一個呢人民法人團體機構資金物品商務勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區有沒有然後呢他的許可條件與程序呢等於呢由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定這就是一個息產地的一個規定"},{"start":7060.908,"end":7085.628,"text":"等於是說我們現在要防止稀產地我等一下要持續的重點就是要怎麼去防止但現在是有人不斷在開後門用這樣的一個方式我們先不要講人員的管理人員的管理光是我的附中草案就已經被擋了44次然後還有我們的關鍵技術我在我的兩岸條例的修正裡面我們關鍵技術還有關鍵的基礎人員要怎麼去做管制這個都已經被擋這個就算了離島建設條例是直接開後門那這個是一個危機"},{"start":7088.61,"end":7118.09,"text":"所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查那這樣的話要怎麼去做對外的談判"},{"start":7119.371,"end":7140.826,"text":"所以這個剛剛我看前面馬文君委員其實也有提到說什麼這個我們現在到底這個南向到哪裡去或什麼之類的我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候真的必須要具備一般的知識我們台灣現在可以看到這個紅線的部分是我們對中國的投資是不斷地在下降我們對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升從二零"},{"start":7142.667,"end":7165.013,"text":"18、19年開始我們對於東協也開始往上升我們對於美加末開始往上升對於中國跟香港開始下降這跟現在有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係這是這89年以來我們政府最重要的一個大政策而這個政策一直都在推行當中所以台積電今天去赴美投資也就是只不過是這樣的一環但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作我看到經濟部是有停住了"},{"start":7165.433,"end":7192.366,"text":"但這個政策操作就是在講說台積電都已經去美國了為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類的沒有這是這八九年以來我們政府一貫的政策就是我們必須要去風險化我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題那現在的這些漏洞呢除了我們要擋下這個藍白現在可能想要去主推這些有的沒的法案之外我認為有一個關鍵就是我們現行的規定的息產地有沒有辦法擋下來"},{"start":7193.707,"end":7217.214,"text":"所以我看一下像這個是原產地證明書及加工證明書的管理辦法這個我看署長這個副署長或者次長都可以看一下在這個第二款因為他說貨品加工或製造這邊我們先不講技術先講最終貨品它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的重要製程前面這個附加價值率是有公式的"},{"start":7217.694,"end":7232.423,"text":"所以既然有公式的話,你就一翻兩瞪眼,企業也好遵循,你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講說,我們根據這個來認定什麼叫做MIT,所以其產地的問題怎麼去擋下,但後面有這個叫做特定貨品以符合貿易署公告,那這個就變成有一個空間,變成說他可以去認定。"},{"start":7236.365,"end":7260.917,"text":"當然這個有空間有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這一個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說"},{"start":7261.897,"end":7281.277,"text":"那這個息產地的疑慮很明顯台灣是沒有的所以不知道看是次長還是副處長針對這一點就是這一個我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中如果說這個是需要機密會議再討論或者說對外談判先不要講出來的話我們可以另外再安排沒有關係但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以"},{"start":7282.178,"end":7299.057,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題實際上呢我們從今年的二月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定我們有做對自中國進口的這個產品做監測首先看它的這個金額進口的金額"},{"start":7300.238,"end":7319.85,"text":"還有進口的量是不是有異常同時我們也是跟相同的產品去跟蘇美的這個部分去做勾結任何有問題的話我們就會去了解這個實際的狀況那如果未來廠商有違反洗產地的這些相關的"},{"start":7320.63,"end":7345.708,"text":"規定的話根據貿易法我們可以給處罰最高可以罰到300萬單筆甚至呢我們可以停止它這個進出口的資格所以這個機制呢其實現在已經是在進行了那我這樣聽起來的話金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候我就有在問這個貿易法第13條"},{"start":7347.569,"end":7371.983,"text":"那裡面有這個我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天啊剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員嘛是他已經做了三十幾三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來"},{"start":7375.805,"end":7403.386,"text":"那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有稀產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術就是說像比如說晶片因為他說技術現在進展得太快了所以他說以前商務部美國商務部就是說他們一直在思考一件事情就是他們內部有專業團隊而這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊指的是那個技術就是他對半導體特別了解所以他可以看得出來有沒有問題所以像之前輝達"},{"start":7404.247,"end":7426.665,"text":"其實像美國現在技術它已經有一個很高度的管制嘛那回答為了要不符合那一個所謂的高標準它還要降低它的那一個晶片然後再出口到這個中國去嘛所以台灣現在在這個部分就是說我們對於這樣的一個團隊其實沒有說要求一定要在經濟部裡面啦但是不管是在國安的團隊裡面還是在國科會裡面這個方向現在是否有"},{"start":7427.347,"end":7455.479,"text":"是有關於技術的部分我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術現在總計有32項那這個部分呢包括了相關的行政部門我們都有跨部會的一個機制在討論那貿易署的經濟部的部分因為最主要是貨品的出口管制所以在科技的部分我們跟國科會還有其他的單位都有固定的在做討論如何防範台灣的高科技外流"},{"start":7456.359,"end":7480.439,"text":"那這邊我覺得還有兩個細項就是說我們在跟國科會有一定的討論那國科會這邊在內部我看到他們裡面內部這些政府相關的這些他的智庫他有提出一些建議這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的除了這個技術它的更新要更快之外因為我覺得速度真的很重要就像我去年在質詢的時候那時候就發現華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上所以我就說這個速度太慢了"},{"start":7480.899,"end":7510.251,"text":"那技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快這是第一點第二點就是人流啦就是說我們剛剛有提到金流的異常現在有提到技術要怎麼外流但人會帶著技術走嘛所以人要怎麼做就是說今天在什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景的審查之外什麼樣的行為我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為你就已經預設你就有可能是在export就是預設你可能會把技術帶出去然後做相關的管制那這個部分我是有先"},{"start":7512.132,"end":7531.661,"text":"針對這幾個條文還有國安法相關的條文要做出一些修正但這個可能也要等到國科會提出一些院版那我在總質詢的時候其實有提到說這個院版要趕快出來那現在畢竟你看說我們現在是90天嘛這90天之內如果我們能夠更把這些跟經濟安全有關的法案院版出來迅速討論通過的話我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助啦是的好那這個"},{"start":7536.923,"end":7543.127,"text":"這個我可能就已經沒時間問了但是我最後一個問題問一下這個民企司長不好意思是 會員因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調就是圓屋這件事情還有對於這個北約的態度那民主黨跟共和黨還是會有一些分歧因為以前我們在外交上面就一直提到說要怎麼去做這些溝通交流"},{"start":7566.363,"end":7585.636,"text":"我覺得我們外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好組織的部分也是那公眾的部分呢僑委會雖然有幫忙但我覺得主力應該在外交部那現在等於說我覺得現在世界各國民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走在台灣也是這個樣子那目前我們現在對於這一個不同黨派的這個溝通策略分頭併進的狀況如何"},{"start":7587.661,"end":7607.361,"text":"我們當然是說對於這個像我們重要的友邦當然是說他們所有的這個不同的這個黨派我們都會有所接觸那麼我們尤其是說當然我們不可避免還是跟執政的這個團隊有更多的這個互動但是我們也沒有說這個在野的就不溝通"},{"start":7608.562,"end":7630.009,"text":"但是現在外交部的一個跟溝通,跟民眾的,像剛剛委員所提到的,我們的形象的形塑,遇到一個很大的問題,就是貴院凍傷我們的相關預算。有一個海外的傷到腹的。等於是完全沒有的時候,其實在外管上面進行相關的工作非常的困難。"},{"start":7630.609,"end":7657.488,"text":"那尤其是在一些地方其實在我們的外交擴展上面可能是有一些這個比較自愛難行的地方所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通但是這個事情因為大院把這個刪減掉後我們真的進行上面非常非常的這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講除了組織之外人民的溝通很重要因為人民他態度一旦轉變政治人物必須要跟著做所以我們對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣相關的費用"},{"start":7658.709,"end":7671.473,"text":"好 這個我們再努力 這個我們再努力看能不能這個立法院有一些變化啦好 那這個不好意思 這個主席佔用時間謝謝謝謝謝謝沈副委員召委上台的資訊接下來有習巧欣委員上台執行謝謝主席 那我想先請這個外交部那經濟部我們稍等喔"},{"start":7691.397,"end":7716.23,"text":"委員好您好關於昨天的質詢我們在調查的過程當中因為外交部剛好有兩位同名同姓之人那導致我們誤植其中一位常任文官的照片以及職位那造成當事人的困擾因此在這裡我要先向外交部以及該常任文官以及何先生和他的家人表達最深的歉意"},{"start":7717.918,"end":7733.941,"text":"那昨天呢我也向林佳龍部長就此事聯繫那清楚的表達我的歉意同時我也希望國安局針對林部長所說的偵查中的另外一起的案件同名同姓的政治幕僚吳先生能夠"},{"start":7735.042,"end":7760.824,"text":"盡快的為所謂的共諜案能夠盡快水落石出但是呢我想是這樣子的就是我說錯的人呢就是說錯的人那誤用了他的照片呢我感到非常的抱歉所以在此呢也向您以及這個何先生及其家屬再次的表達歉意那我今天主要跟您談論的是川普的這個關稅政策所以我們也請這個經濟部一起上來"},{"start":7761.673,"end":7773.306,"text":"那部長我們看到這次川普政府緩徵關稅90天等於我們有多了90天的時間來說服美方來降低或取消32%的關稅對我們來說其實是一件很好的事情"},{"start":7777.19,"end":7806.306,"text":"尤其呢昨天還看到了史無前例的是川普總統他在這個宣布政策之前呢他就發布說的呢This is a great time to buy所以呢我們以前都只聽過內線交易那我們第一次看到這個外線交易所以我們今天看到呢台股能夠翻紅我們都覺得非常的開心但這個情況能夠實施多久能夠維持多久這都端看我們外交部以及經濟部的努力喔"},{"start":7806.826,"end":7820.882,"text":"那能夠延遲90天讓國家暫時脫離險境但是我們也注意到其實中國被美國科證125%的關稅那他們今天的股票仍然是上漲的那這一點我們也應該要去注意到"},{"start":7821.783,"end":7844.415,"text":"特別想要問經濟部就是川普他們暫緩及日期各國的32%的這個像我們的32%的稅率剩下各國適用的10%的稅率事實上比原本我們跟美國之間課的稅率還是比較高的那呢仍然會對產業造成影響在這方面我們是否仍然會持續對產業進行協助甚至補貼"},{"start":7847.825,"end":7871.143,"text":"是 谢谢委员的指教其实我们政府有提出这个因应美国关税的产业资源的方案从不同的面向那刚才行政院院会已经通过这个产业资源方案措施不变而且要请院长有才事要请相关的部会要尽速的研拟措施我们在4月14号会对外正式的公布"},{"start":7871.263,"end":7886.69,"text":"那請問一下先前行政院所提出的880億的支持出口供應鏈的方案仍然是以880億的規模持續進行嗎沒錯是的那也會提出特別條例嗎會的好的那呢因為現在的這個關稅那"},{"start":7890.131,"end":7900.602,"text":"除了之前我們講到的這個基本關稅之外先前美國有針對全球產業的特定的部分關稅例如像是鋼鐵業等等的那請問這也包含在這個90天的暫停範圍之內嗎"},{"start":7906.408,"end":7925.033,"text":"沒有鋼鐵業還是維持所以那我想要請問一下除了這個基本關稅的10%以及加徵的32%之外還有哪一些部分是它是特定的產業仍然有比較高的關稅有哪一些產業是如此的"},{"start":7925.473,"end":7949.766,"text":"是 百分之三十二這個已經我們了解改為百分之十一就是延長延長對 除了這個以外呢有鋼鋁的關稅是百分之二十五但是跟委員報告我們先前呢就蘇美的話就是百分之二十五所以現在變成跟其他的國家齊頭的都是百分之二十五那還有其他的產業"},{"start":7951.467,"end":7975.358,"text":"對 還有汽車產業 汽車產業還是維持25%的關稅汽車產業維持25%的關稅還有就是美國對我們的課徵嘛 對不對就是基本的MFN的稅率那原本美國對我們的課徵的稅率是多少看各個產業不同 資通訊產業化是零關稅沒有 我剛剛問的是汽車的部分汽車大概 看不同的零件 大概20%"},{"start":7978.768,"end":7993.954,"text":"20左右2525所以25的部分也是沒有變動的嗎對沒有變動的那有具體變動的還有哪一些你們可以幫我們大家就是民眾很想知道就是說呢我們所謂的這一些"},{"start":7995.134,"end":8012.5,"text":"针对全球产业的部分关税不包含在32%里面的有没有其他的产业是有高于原本的关税这个部分就是钢铝还有汽车产业因为那本来就都一样嘛一样的我们就不谈了那有高于的"},{"start":8013.2,"end":8031.203,"text":"汽车产业您刚刚说25%现在也是25%的话那是没有高于啊所以是不是请补充一下相关的资讯让我们国人知道有增加的部分大概是哪一些川普总统总统曾经有说过可能会对药品半导体"},{"start":8032.605,"end":8053.545,"text":"還有同志品可能會加增關稅到目前為止並沒有這樣的訊息所以可能會有這幾樣那未來呢即便是在32%的關稅延長的狀態之下仍然會另外剋稅的可能性這是你們不排除的嘛那我們現在呢雙方已經都在交換資訊就請那個外交部來回答"},{"start":8054.105,"end":8063.645,"text":"那呢台灣不只是關稅談判還有對美的投資採購等等的我想要問一下我們這次的談判小組的成員有哪一些人來組成"},{"start":8065.265,"end":8085.427,"text":"那麼現在據我們已經公佈的就是由這個行政院副院長姓立軍副院長領隊那其他的這個成員我想都可以想像得到那外交部在裡面是擔任什麼樣的一個角色我們主要是說我們掌握相關的這個管道那麼我們同時每處也隨時會把"},{"start":8086.628,"end":8110.683,"text":"相關的訊息能夠傳遞回來台灣包括我們之前的時候的掛號也都是進行的了解我們對美關稅談判的首席代表是鄭麗君女士這一次的特別的是由這個政院宣布是由這個正副院長來對正副院長那在領銜的部分請問他已經出訪或是聯繫美方了嗎"},{"start":8111.443,"end":8122.545,"text":"這是我們普遍透露因為就是說包括這個第一個說昨天的他人還在國內嘛對不對新聞報導是如此寫的如果不對的話可以告訴我們讓我們能夠刊物"},{"start":8123.56,"end":8140.731,"text":"報告委員這個我們沒有訊息你們沒有訊息那我剛講的是新聞上的訊息那你們可以不回應這個沒有問題那所以如果因為我們質疑的地方是如果鄭麗君副院長還在國內的話那他到底要怎麼樣去談判"},{"start":8142.552,"end":8154.278,"text":"那他有沒有打電話給川普的官員能夠來通電話 因為我們看到的事情是其實呢 不管是 我們可以看這些人他們包含是美國的財長 這個我們看到好幾位的高層都已經到這個華府去面對面的協商 或者是打了這個相關的電話去"},{"start":8164.804,"end":8181.024,"text":"那我另外再問一個問題就是去年川普政府其實他在選舉的期間就已經提出過他要利用關稅這件事情來進行對全世界的一些可能他們的貿易的策略我們可以看一下"},{"start":8182.805,"end":8207.113,"text":"當時呢我們的這個外交部的政務次長吳志忠次長那他呢就說這個川普聲稱台灣偷走美國晶片的生意是選舉語言那外交部對於過去次長這樣的說法那是不是會覺得因此我們晚了很多的時間來做準備我們當初真的把它當成了選舉語言嗎"},{"start":8208.857,"end":8230.938,"text":"報告委員這個選舉議員當然是一部分那另外一個部分就是說其實可能一部分的這個美國的政治領袖對於台灣晶片的這個優勢有一些這個不完整的一個掌握所以我們也盡力的跟他們溝通台灣做到這樣的一個程度並不是所謂的偷走的問題而是我們在技術上面精益修新"},{"start":8231.499,"end":8258.553,"text":"但是因為川普已經不是第一次說是偷走的問題那我們請主席再給我一點時間最後一個問題就是美國的商務部長剛剛大家都有提到了那他在4月3號的時候接受那個訪問的時候表示說川普將會深入研究這些內容也就是剛剛我們經濟部談到的包含半導體等等措施會陸續提出那要目的是要把所有來自台灣的半導體"},{"start":8260.535,"end":8282.309,"text":"產業移植回美國經濟部如果有需要的話可以來回應這個題目那這個關於CNBC的逐字稿裡面寫得很清楚Donald Trump is going to deeply study thoseand those are going to come lateron how to ensure from Taiwan all that manufacturing"},{"start":8282.609,"end":8306.012,"text":"所以呢他基本上所有的半導體產業他裡面寫的是all不是have或是some of所以我想要請問就針對美國商務部長的這個訪問裡面他提到的措施是會陸續把台灣的半導體產業全部的移到美國這個部分經濟部的看法目前是如何評估狀況是如何"},{"start":8307.894,"end":8323.214,"text":"其實我們的業者到海外的布局最主要的考量是要客戶的需求因為可以就近的接近客戶例如像美國有很多的大廠他需要因為要發展AI要發展人工運算所以都會"},{"start":8323.715,"end":8349.794,"text":"如果是我了解如果是我們主動去的話當然沒有問題但如果是像這樣子這個方這個說法是美國商務部長要求就以美方的角度要求半導體要來到美國因為就像川普說的他一直強調他講了至少三次以上說呢台灣偷走了美國的晶片跟這個半導體這句話我想我之前也問過林佳龍部長他也不同意"},{"start":8350.154,"end":8375.394,"text":"甚至我問了一些美方的友人他們也不是這麼的同意但是呢現在川普他上任之後他以及他的相關的商務部長他們的說法都是要把台灣的半導體全部移回美國因為你看原文他確實是用all的方式all that他就說all that所以他說全部都要移到美國去那我們對這方面有進行相關的因應或是準備嗎"},{"start":8377.416,"end":8395.884,"text":"因為半導體的發展它是需要時間所以我們原則上我們必須要掌握的最先進的技術一定要留在台灣這個部分我們同時同步的也會協助我們的廠商進行相關的研發一直把最先進的技術給開發出來留在台灣"},{"start":8397.645,"end":8420.812,"text":"那最後問一個問題就是呢因為台積電到美國那投資一千到兩千億左右這件事情也引發台灣不少的議論那大家就在問的是說那聯電是否也會出走這件事情請問經濟部是否有掌握或者是這是一個不對的消息是不是可以幫我們澄清一下我們對於市場的傳言不做任何的評論好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8423.865,"end":8443.077,"text":"謝謝習小平委員的上台諮詢待會陳冠廷委員諮詢完畢之後我們休息待會我們就楊瓊瑜委員諮詢完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘請陳冠廷委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8474.468,"end":8484.083,"text":"我們先請外交部委員您好是次長嗎是"},{"start":8485.305,"end":8509.205,"text":"市長 我們來看一下現在整體的外交的政策可能我們要變成一個要調整的階段過去這一二十年來 我們跟美國應該說二三十年來 包含美國為主的我們的盟邦都是以貿易促進外交 用外交來促進包含中國等國的改變"},{"start":8511.167,"end":8536.527,"text":"那在2000年初那有嘗試著來去做這樣子的做法但是經過20多年的這種交往之後我們發覺到中國他在市場上面的這種傾銷掠奪或者是用補貼等等不對等的做法之後那以美國為首的盟國開始知道說這是中國是可能是沒有辦法做完整的全面性的公平的貿易所以開始改用貿易"},{"start":8537.708,"end":8558.13,"text":"作為一個武器特別是在川普總統之後那所以貿易作為武器來去遏止中國的這種勢力的這種拓展那在今天我們可以看到他是已經再次被證實了包含許多盟國大概都是在10%左右但是"},{"start":8558.911,"end":8577.691,"text":"中國卻被強制增到100多%那對我國來講它的非紅供應鏈它是可以去壓制中國的我想請教一下市長你們針對這個外交上面戰略的變化有沒有做好準備跟未來的我們要怎麼樣去把我們的論述做調整"},{"start":8578.499,"end":8601.809,"text":"是,謝謝委員的這個提問那麼我們這個外交當然是跟著整個大的一個形勢在變那它有它變的地方跟它不變的地方不變的地方是在於這個台灣跟美國之間的這個安全承諾那麼以及在這個維護台海和平穩定上面的一個共同的努力這個是沒有改變我們看到是說包括在"},{"start":8602.829,"end":8624.074,"text":"這個美日高峰會議的時候的聯合聲明那個美日韓三國外長在慕尼黑場邊慕尼安全對話場邊的這個聯合聲明以及G7的外長這個會議聯合聲明上面其實都展現了以及我們看到美國的這個新任國防部長Hexes那麼他就任以來第一次的出訪訪問了菲律賓訪問了日本"},{"start":8626.355,"end":8642.334,"text":"像這個東西都展現出他對這個區域的一個這個承諾那麼第二個是說他們堅定守護這個地方的環境穩定的等一下市長我在講的是說我們未來的論述我不是要叫你敘述現在的狀況比方說我們未來論述可以說什麼"},{"start":8642.975,"end":8671.145,"text":"然後我國跟美國的安全上面為主包含一些資源的運送到台灣我們是整個跟美國做一個結合這就是飛鴻供應的一個最好的方式從能源開始到製造業開始那我們是美國最好的夥伴那在這些東西我們可以化作為我們談判的優勢這是我們的論述之一鞏固台灣可以鞏固美國的利益鞏固台灣的利益就是鞏固美國的利益類似這樣的論述是可以做改變的我不是請你敘述"},{"start":8671.605,"end":8693.978,"text":"說現在的狀況是怎麼樣完全同意喔那包含第二個是說其實川普總統那麼對於這個AI的重視那這個台灣的製造業的這個能力其實是美國最好的夥伴的關係如果美國要繼續在AI的這個領域上面有一個獨步全國的一個這個地位的話台灣是不可或缺的一部分好 謝謝我謝謝外交部我們請這個談判代表我們的副總談判代表"},{"start":8707.211,"end":8721.665,"text":"美國近日有32%的關稅,我們現在正式大概是會暫緩,會以10%來去課稅那歐盟呢?歐盟也是一樣,現在所有的國家都是,現在有180個國家以上都是10%"},{"start":8728.553,"end":8750.765,"text":"那川普的這個他最新的宣布是75個國家會有10%那其實是不只75個國家對他是對全球都科徵對等關稅而對等關稅的起步的稅率是10%那有50就是他現在所謂的75個國家是有比10%更高的個別國家關稅像台灣就是有32%的關稅他現在是暫緩這個個別國家的對等關稅"},{"start":8754.332,"end":8781.089,"text":"OK 所以就是回復到10% 是那歐盟 我這麼講好像是歐盟儘管說有做某種程度的對等的報復但是他目前還是10%還是維持10%還是維持10%那所以說這證明說美國他對他的盟友在此時此刻還是有跟非盟友是有差別對待的我們這樣的理解是可以的嗎目前我們所看到的只有對於中國他直接立即提高關稅其他的國家都是維持10%"},{"start":8782.506,"end":8797.944,"text":"近期我們看到美國企業研究所就是AEI它有說到這個實際的稅率它提到說它的這個公式裡面對台灣的公式是公佈數值的大約四分之一所以對日本的關稅不應該是24%對台灣的關稅不應該是32%我們現在是有豁免大概90天對不對"},{"start":8802.631,"end":8822.265,"text":"是所以在這90天的過程中包含這些智庫我們跟智庫的合作跟他們的輿論的影響其實是有重要性的我想這一次就是因為這樣子川普總統才能夠把32%先暫緩執行90天那我必須想請教一下副代表以這樣子的公式來看的話"},{"start":8823.581,"end":8849.1,"text":"他是在錯誤的地方在哪裡就是他們當初在美方政府他的錯誤的地方在哪裡那AI他們標示的計算的不合理的地方在哪裡這個公式我們可能要回去再去研析一下但是最主要的是我們認為現在因為他的計算方式基本上是用台灣的貿易逆差去出於美國從台灣進口的總額所以那我們覺得台灣的貿易逆差"},{"start":8849.86,"end":8871.548,"text":"實際上他只用這個去年所產生的這個數字並不是很公平的對台灣去做一個衡量因為我們這兩年是因為第一個在這個美中的第一代的貿易戰之下然後大量的台商回流第二個是因為台灣在美國在AI產業的促進之下所以我們很多的產品這些半導體有關的產品大量出現"},{"start":8873.849,"end":8890.517,"text":"他們相關的新聞出到現在已經有一週了那我們現在有90天的時間當然比較好但是如果說過了一週我們還沒有這AI是很重要的智庫當他們在替我們說話的時候我們還沒有辦法去理解說這個公式的不合理性"},{"start":8891.383,"end":8917.459,"text":"那就是我們必須要快速的去應對的包含經濟部也是昨天經濟部部長有被質詢到那這些理解的方式跟要趕快讓我們的這一些領導的部會的首長能夠快速的去理解這樣可不可以沒有問題那我想我現在簡單看了一下他主要是提到的是美國因為他對於所有的進口國家的來源他的所謂進口替代的這些價格的彈性"},{"start":8917.861,"end":8937.318,"text":"他都給予同樣的價格但是每個國家實際上跟美國的關係是不同的沒錯 好 謝謝那副代表趕快再講一下這個關於整體的談判架構上面我們現在很擔心的特別是農業線或者是傳產的產業我們擔心的是說他們把這個半導體排除然後來去談農業跟這個傳產的話"},{"start":8940.763,"end":8963.313,"text":"對我們的這個談判的優勢會不會來去做削減那我們希望說能夠以單一整體性的協議架構就是說把我們的這個擔心的部分特別是農業的部分因為我們非常擔心這個談判辦公室有沒有針對說如果未來為了換取台灣的整體出口利益而必須在稻米牛豬等其他的敏感的農產品上"},{"start":8964.634,"end":8979.455,"text":"可能要對美國會不會有這樣子要做更大程度的開放如果是這樣的話那對我們的衝擊就會很大我想請教一下你們有沒有先做可能的情境來進行政府的這個模擬的整備工作至少這些數字還有這些計算有沒有開始在做這些事情呢"},{"start":8980.203,"end":8997.912,"text":"我想我們從去年11月開始在行政院這邊已經成立了台美經貿工作小組就一直在做這些研擬那我們在預作準備那當然32%公布之後呢對台灣來說因為前幾天我們總統也已經宣布了就是說我們接下來會希望以零關稅為基礎來開始做協商"},{"start":9000.458,"end":9024.791,"text":"那這對我們農業的就會有開始我們擔憂啦可能就對我們農業就會有影響那現在的880億的特別預算裡面針對農業是180億所以說談判辦公室的有任何的跟農業相關的進度的話就必須要立刻轉資農業部讓農業部在做未來的準備的時候有足夠的資源來去跟足夠的時間來去應變那我還是在特別講因為現在"},{"start":9025.771,"end":9038.608,"text":"每天都有變化每天都有變化每天都必須要掌握我們的詮釋權跟我們的話語權像是AEI它能夠在第一時間就來提出說這一個算是對日本跟台灣不公平"},{"start":9039.562,"end":9067.101,"text":"是他們提出來了喔是駐美在美國在美國的智庫在聽我們說話那我們直到昨天包含其他委員在質詢經濟部部長的時候沒有再做這個快速的回應的話那我們必須要比他們還要再早這是第一點第二點也行外交部在對美的這些智庫不管是傳統基金會AEI這些比較跟共和黨親近的執政黨親近的智庫立刻要做好"},{"start":9068.052,"end":9082.771,"text":"更完善的一個說詞跟說法確保我國的利益能夠被保護好不好那完全同意我們跟AEI跟這個heritage都有非常密切的關係很好因為我還是在強調這個這沒有什麼好大的一盤棋是"},{"start":9083.345,"end":9101.71,"text":"有的是我們要把我們所有的資源都放在能夠使用的資源上面所有的說法所有的管道所有的全面性的來去營造對台灣有利的輿論環境只有對台灣有利的輿論環境我們才可以爭取到更多的外交籌碼這是中等國家必須要爭取的"},{"start":9102.29,"end":9103.411,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來有楊瓊英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9131.243,"end":9135.164,"text":"我們來討論美國對等關稅政策峰迴路轉川普在9日的時候宣布暫緩對等關稅90天"},{"start":9158.692,"end":9182.611,"text":"那期間對於貿易夥伴的部分全面來施行10%的關稅但是我們也不能掉以輕心因為訊息萬變政府應該要更積極的來應對總統也宣布了由行政院副院長來領軍的關稅談判小組那其中裡面包括我們整個國安體系、外交體系、經貿、辦公室等"},{"start":9183.331,"end":9211.647,"text":"政府也持續說透過各種的方案以及管道來做溝通所以本期要請教昨天國發會主委在經濟委員會他說了他說我們是優先的剛剛經濟部部長郭部長在經濟委員會我跟他的詢問當中他說我們是列在第一波那我們看到鄰近國家日韓不管是見面或者通電話都已經上入ING了"},{"start":9212.287,"end":9236.084,"text":"那所以首先在這邊請教,我們什麼時候會談?是,那麼我們掌握所有的管道把訊息做充分的溝通那麼跟委員報告,我們現在就像這個已經說了就是說我們已經掛了號,那麼就是由美國來按照他的這個時程跟他對於這個,我們會爭取"},{"start":9237.705,"end":9266.905,"text":"那麼爭取的兩個東西就是第一個是說我們的整個的談判的內容必須要齊備那麼第二個是說那麼也要跟美國隨時保持信任那我要跟這個委員說明一下我們現在這個駐美代表處透過所有的管道包括國會包括智庫包括這個對於川普總統的影響力請告訴本席提問是說我也將郭部長所說的我們是列在第一波"},{"start":9268.486,"end":9288.318,"text":"國發會主委告訴我們的是我們是優先那我們呢我們在這90天內我們會在30天內談嗎因為川普的次子艾瑞克他說了他在社群平台上面發文他說我絕對不會想要當最後一個跟川普"},{"start":9289.719,"end":9311.601,"text":"這個協商的國家因為第一個來談判的就是贏家最後一個是輸家當然社群上面的所說明也不代表美國的官方但是一定是越早談對我們越好所以請教市長我們在這樣的一個條件之下那我們的這個台美又是非常的友好我們會在30天內慘嗎"},{"start":9313.069,"end":9329.35,"text":"這個我們沒有辦法做保證那麼要看看這個對方掌握的這個情形談判辦公室 來 謝謝談判辦公室謝謝委員我們會在30天內談嗎就誠如郭部長說的我們是第一波誠如劉主委說的我們是優先請說明"},{"start":9330.851,"end":9347.333,"text":"我想我們就是努力爭取那我覺得對台灣來說我們知己知彼知友都是我們現在在等待的過程就是我們實際上在觀察其他國家去跟美國現在談判的一個過程實際上也是協助台灣來準備所以我覺得不論是列在哪一國我想你們兩位"},{"start":9348.734,"end":9375.072,"text":"今天代表來到立法院答詢那就是非常重要在這一次談判當中的重要的重中之重我們也希望因為產業很緊張我們的農業也很緊張在這種情況之下我們希望能夠盡速來談這是人民的心聲我們不希望聽到的都是"},{"start":9375.993,"end":9401.18,"text":"沒有答案的那我們真的非常希望大家加油好好的來幫助我們自己的國內產業以及我們的人民所以接下來本席要請教今天在報告書當中我們也擴大對美國的投資讓台美經貿合作更加的密切來提升台灣經貿戰略的地位那我們也"},{"start":9401.86,"end":9431.039,"text":"看到你們的報告除了台積電會對美債投資至少一千億美元之外台灣的企業也響應美國商務部所舉辦的選擇美國投資高峰會那外交部也跟相關的單位產業來協助來了解那麼要怎麼樣赴美來投資所以本席要請教經濟部也在這裡那請教外交部跟經濟部是政府所組的台灣投資美國"},{"start":9432.58,"end":9458.953,"text":"剛剛在經濟委員會當中我們也跟部長充分來討論那麼也針對了總統在外媒當中所說的我們針對哪一些項目那郭部長也回答對 我們就是朝這個方向的項目去做所以本席要請教重點是不是在半導體跟ICT產業是不是如此"},{"start":9459.853,"end":9482.949,"text":"但是我們也希望在國內的產業我們究竟是要怎麼樣能夠維護我們的根基能夠穩定下來我想這個也是在你們談判的過程當中保障國內產業也是非常的重要所以請教是不是朝總統先生所說的這個方向在外媒他的投書上面所說的來請"},{"start":9483.894,"end":9498.824,"text":"是 那總統今天在這個Bloomberg上面所發表的這個台灣的這個路徑圖那正是我們所要進行的跟美方的這個談判的策略包括投資 包括採購那跟委員報告所以項目方向大概就是"},{"start":9499.964,"end":9518.329,"text":"這個這些項目基本上面是這些項目但是不只限於這些項目比如說有關於半導體就是台積電這個承諾的這個1000億美金加上之前已經開始投產的這個650億美金再加上這個其他的這個SELAC USA上面可能有很多的這個ITC產業會過去但是也要"},{"start":9520.209,"end":9549.139,"text":"包括所謂的我們在這個中油跟這個阿拉斯加已經簽訂了這個意向書那麼關於他們有關於這個天然氣管的這個投資案那這些東西都是對於台灣非常重要的包括說天然氣這是增加台灣的能源韌性包括對於台積電包括ITC產業其實一定程度上是我們要來救進客戶我們的大量採購有將天然氣呢要這個這個達到大概三成左右"},{"start":9549.819,"end":9550.579,"text":"報告委員因為現在技術的發展呢"},{"start":9577.632,"end":9592.052,"text":"這個核電呢它現在是有在進步所以我們如果是要有這個採購核能相關的產品必須要有三個原則第一個呢就是要去確保核能的安全第二個呢"},{"start":9592.642,"end":9607.581,"text":"要核廢料的處置一定要完善第三個最重要的就是必須要有全民的共識這三點的基本原則是一定要掌握住的但是我們是持一個開放的態度來進行討論"},{"start":9608.783,"end":9636.783,"text":"一個開放的態度這是我們這一段時間這一兩個月來聽到的政府告訴我們在新人員的新技術裡頭我們是採開放的所以接下來本席要請教原本的32%讓大家就是繃緊了神經總統也喊出了五項的策略因應也喊出了比照美墨加自貿協定"},{"start":9637.924,"end":9654.265,"text":"那也就是說我們從零關稅開始來談但是本想要請教外交部跟我們的經貿辦我們會朝FTA或者是BTA還是單純由我們自己主動來降關稅來談呢因為我們知道"},{"start":9655.006,"end":9679.77,"text":"有學者就指出了川普上議院的時候他就不談FTA所以如果想要在這個架構上去談降關稅似乎不是很可能但是也不是不可能因為現在千變萬化但是郭部長昨天也特別表示會朝這個方向他也說機率高不高他沒有辦法去做決定"},{"start":9680.791,"end":9697.331,"text":"所以我們在蔡總統的時候她也以這個方向但是我們萊豬進來了我們還是得不到什麼所以在這樣的一個情況之下想要請教辦公室跟外交部我們現在談判的方向"},{"start":9698.68,"end":9718.845,"text":"到底是什麼呢請說謝謝委員那我想我們基本上就是從零關稅開始談那現在台灣出口到美國有76%零關稅美國到台灣則62%零關稅所以我們就是從這個基礎往上去討論探討哪一些產品可以逐步的去擴大我們零關稅"},{"start":9719.705,"end":9732.959,"text":"的範圍那目的就是要去降低我們的貿易利差以及降低我們對等關稅的稅率所以這個不論是採取哪一種的經貿協定的模式那我想這個都是我們要去跟美國協商的方向結果想要去平衡這個均衡嘛那請教會專部"},{"start":9738.853,"end":9752.128,"text":"貿易談判主要是由OTM來負責,但是外交部的策略一定全面配合。第二個是說,我們首要的目標當然是要減低我們的關稅。第二個是說,在這個上面是不是能夠把台美雙邊貿易的關係制度化。"},{"start":9756.292,"end":9779.118,"text":"所以再包括您所提到的FTA啦Bilateral Trade Agreement等等的這些東西我想都是在我們談判的這個目標之一但是能夠達到多少就看是雙方的這個談判的具體的這個結果多少的選項因為是多元那所以本席給一個答案國內的產業務必能夠要保障國內的農業"},{"start":9781.943,"end":9809.31,"text":"以及國內的食安是在你們談判當中非常重要的必要因子的一個保障這是本席語重心長的來建議你們我們希望台灣是一個好的國家我們務必一定要好好的保障我們的人民謝謝謝謝楊瓊怡委員上來致敬那現在休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續的答詢"},{"start":9816.868,"end":9817.734,"text":"開始用剪刀"},{"start":10166.13,"end":10167.232,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":10182.256,"end":10182.276,"text":"好"},{"start":10218.402,"end":10222.344,"text":"現在開始開會我們請陳俊宇委員上台致敬"},{"start":10239.67,"end":10255.189,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們有請我們外交部的陳次長,還有我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的我們的嚴副作,還有我們大陸委員會的省副主委"},{"start":10260.617,"end":10283.648,"text":"市長、各位首長大家午安今天在立法院多個委員會都聚焦在美國對等關稅衝擊各國的相關議題上我們看到川普的決策也是瞬息萬變在我們台灣時間今天凌晨已經宣布他將暫緩"},{"start":10286.35,"end":10303.749,"text":"這個對等關稅90天並且有75個國家已經主張要和美國來討論相關的這個貿易的相關議題那他們對此只要是對於美國友善的部分他們對等關稅的稅率會先維持在10%左右"},{"start":10307.608,"end":10317.617,"text":"川普更表示未來他如果能夠在談判的過程裡面希望他能夠跟每一個國家坐下來談親自要下去談"},{"start":10318.987,"end":10343.155,"text":"他也指示貿易團隊對於每一個友善的這些有美的國家一定要制定特製的貿易協議每一份協議都要根據該國的市場還有該國出口的產品美國進口等情況來量身訂做以確保美國勞工和產業"},{"start":10344.897,"end":10348.39,"text":"有利的一個方案,那在此我想就叫我們"},{"start":10350.098,"end":10377.98,"text":"相關部會就我們準備的這些方案自身的這個優勢研判川普在未來的90天後會不會對台灣來調降關稅這個機會高不高那另外在整個這個過程裡面我們也觀察到美中之間的互不相讓到關稅政策的急轉彎我們如何來觀察川普的相關策略及中國的反應"},{"start":10379.221,"end":10404.778,"text":"那接下來可能這個美中之間會不會有相關的這個策略轉彎的狀況?是,跟委員報告,首先是說就我們的這個談判的這個策略,那像這個包括總統禮拜天的談話,那麼今天在Bloomberg上面的這個投書,我想都已經把我們的談判策略與談判優勢都講得很清楚。第二,如果我們已經commit對於美國的投資,"},{"start":10405.798,"end":10432.846,"text":"對於美國的採購而且我們在這個五月的時候還會有Select USA以及相關的這個採購團去到美國這些採購並不是只是一個裝點門面而是譬如說像這個對於這個天然氣的這個採購包括對於這個供應鏈的這個投資都是我們的國家整個經濟結構轉型以及我們國家的這個安全的韌性上面的這個提升所以是我們所需要的"},{"start":10433.186,"end":10462.339,"text":"所以這個是我們的談判的策略第二個是說我們在科技上面的優勢那麼這也是我們的談判策略就是說美國如果希望在AI上面能夠取得全球領導的地位的話台灣必然是不可或缺的一部分那我們希望用我們的誠意跟我們的做好功課能夠跟美國做最萬全的一個準備我們不敢預期說它會對我們降多少關鍵但我覺得我們是可以樂觀以待的有機會降低嗎"},{"start":10463.154,"end":10482.141,"text":"我覺得是他既然已經說了是說這個第一個這個美國財政部長Benson說其實我們現在看到這個對等關稅他的這個上限那個是屬於上限而不是屬於所以我們要用我們的做好功課然後拿出我們的誠意包括對於有關於這個"},{"start":10484.582,"end":10501.698,"text":"非關稅的貿易障礙的部分我們跟美方充分的溝通然後能夠做適合的調整我想我們有很好的機會能夠得到比較好的後果這我們也期待啦我們也請我們相關部會就是準備齊全啦那美中關係會不會在這個"},{"start":10504.38,"end":10520.638,"text":"美中關係分了好幾個層次,包括安全經貿,包括其他的共享的價值文化等等我想在所有的地方,我們跟美國在價值上面一致,在利益上面也是一致然後在安全上面有共同的一個需求"},{"start":10521.178,"end":10547.037,"text":"所以我可以來說是說包括從這個我們剛才提到的這個美日的峰會那麼的聲明包括美日韓在這個慕尼黑這個安全對話之後的共同聲明包括在G7上面這已經說明了說其實以及很重要的這個美國的這個新任國防部長在亞洲型上面所發表的聲明也充分的表示他們對於這個地區的重視那在各個"},{"start":10549.678,"end":10568.567,"text":"這個最近這個這個中國對我們的這個洗腦上面那麼國務院以及美國相關單位甚至包括歐盟等等都展現出對於台海的和平穩定的關切我想這讓我們感到說在安全上面有很多可以做到在經貿上面就這一次因為昨天的這個豁免也讓我們看到是說"},{"start":10569.327,"end":10582.716,"text":"雖然是暫時的豁免但是我們是在美國的這一邊我們是在所謂的整個價值的這個非紅工意念的一邊所以在這基礎上面我覺得說台美關係會有很好的一個發展的機會"},{"start":10583.889,"end":10611.722,"text":"持續觀察對於美國財政部長貝森特也有談到美方可能會和日本、韓國還有台灣等重要的亞洲經濟夥伴來達成一項阿拉斯加能源投資的協議而美國與主要的貿易國談判的時候不會拘泥於關稅與傳統貿易的協定而是把能源還有國防等多項議題結合"},{"start":10613.323,"end":10636.74,"text":"也對非貿易領域的談判表示歡迎那我想對於阿拉斯加能源協議我們會是接下來台美談判的一個關鍵嗎那未來在台美相關的協議協商的機制當中是否應該在經濟貿易合作的基礎上進一步強調我國的能源經濟還有國家安全的相關議題"},{"start":10638.335,"end":10666.759,"text":"對 當然所以我們要把這個對阿拉斯加的這個天然氣採購案以及投資案看成其實第一個是增加我們的能源韌性從美國運來台灣比這個從中東運來台灣其實它來得近這個也是我們就近的一個考慮過去的時候因為中共美國的這個限制那麼從美國進口這個天然氣比較困難那現在既然拜登政府有意的打開這條路的話我們當然很願意掌握這樣的機會第二個"},{"start":10667.319,"end":10685.251,"text":"它是台美關係中間一個重要的槓桿我們事實上跟委員報告我們事實上是甚至是早於日本早於韓國去談這個阿拉斯加的這個天然氣的案子事實上我們也做了相關的一個承諾目前來說我們進度是最好的"},{"start":10686.36,"end":10712.41,"text":"好那川普也希望說他們的這個製造業能夠回流到美國並且要求這個相關的這個國家能夠增加對美國的投資也期望我們台灣的這個半導體能夠加速前往美國來佈局這個會與我們台灣提升在非紅供應鏈的這個地位的目標然後兩者之間應該要如何來互補那以確保我們台灣的一個戰略地位不受影響"},{"start":10713.174,"end":10742.632,"text":"是 那麼我們這個在半導體上面就是這個我們研發生根台灣產線佈局全球但是在這個脈絡之下然後我們也能夠接就近這個我們的客戶畢竟我們的很多的客戶是在美國所以我想在台積電他們作為一個民間企業私人企業他有這樣的一個考量所以去做了投資這個投資現在也開始產生效益第一個是說在建廠階段對於美國提供了大量的建築工人的這個第二個"},{"start":10743.212,"end":10767.412,"text":"提供匯來這個高科技的就業界第三個對於很多層重要對於我們的半導體產業來說是究竟那麼接近美國除了接近客戶之外還有一個是接近這個美國的強大的研究的能力包括對AI包括對於未來的可能的這個量子的這個電腦那麼都能夠往那個地方能夠得到更好的一個機會所以是跟美國的安全以及美國"},{"start":10768.253,"end":10775.825,"text":"想要在AI上面在所謂的Cyber Space上面能夠繼續的領先全球是至關重要的一部分"},{"start":10776.34,"end":10787.909,"text":"好,那另外我們為了平衡台美貿易的順逆差,我們政府也提出要擴大對美採購的策略,其中由我們外交部還有農業部將籌組農業的訪問,預計這個九月,跟剛剛次長您說的十月應該是不同的一個採購的團體。"},{"start":10799.378,"end":10825.76,"text":"那我們農訪團赴美採購的這個時間和相關的這個規劃是否已經這個定案那會不會再提前我們現在來說的話目前得到的訊息是按照原來的時程走畢竟我們五月馬上會有幾個團不是一個團包括SelectUSA那麼包括這個我們的這個民間的產業工會所帶領的那麼外交部全力配合的以及在國防產業上面"},{"start":10826.641,"end":10844.973,"text":"那麼都會陸續的在五月的時候到訪美國我想希望能夠在這個上面提供我們跟美國談判上面一個重要的槓桿那麼也會充分的利用這個透過訊息能夠讓這個美國的政府了解到我們對於美國的這個投資以及採購是有十足的誠意"},{"start":10846.034,"end":10862.069,"text":"另外我們擴大採購的這些農特產品的規劃,包括稻米還有基改的作物等等,是否會衝擊到我們國內的農業?外交部是否和農業部已經和縣市政府進行盤點跟評估?"},{"start":10864.713,"end":10890.98,"text":"這個部分比較多的是我們負責去這個對外的這個溝通談判那當然說相關的這個對於我們本國的農業的衝擊主要是由農業部來的但是我的了解是說其實農業部在這上面也做了萬全的準備既然我們要對煤採購那麼對於國內的這個農業會有產生的這個衝擊那麼我想說包括在農業部包括在行政院這個地方都已經做好的這個相關的一個準備"},{"start":10892.54,"end":10916.693,"text":"好,這個農業跟農民是相對的弱勢,那我也請我們未來的採購團在整個過程裡面,務必要特別的謹慎保護好我們佔領的農業我們一定權衡國內的考慮,以及對於我們重要有盟的關係,兩者權重之下來做我們相關的採購跟談判好,謝謝次長那因為時間因素,兩位副作會後如果有時間再請教,謝謝"},{"start":10922.532,"end":10942.102,"text":"謝謝陳俊宇委員上台之訊接下來由李倩琦委員上台之訊好 謝謝主席我們請外交部陳次長"},{"start":10951.645,"end":10967.359,"text":"本席今天針對整個國際局勢現在在快速的變動那美國對中國採取的這個高關稅跟戰略圍堵的政策而且擴大了對等關稅到其他的經濟體台灣作為出口導向經濟面的這個部分遭受到直接的衝擊這是第一個"},{"start":10967.959,"end":10981.566,"text":"然後第二個共軍頻繁的引煉也封鎖了台海的周邊暴露我們能源跟物流體系的脆弱那第三個部分是川普主義的回溯那美國外交政策不確定性就上升了"},{"start":10982.947,"end":11003.541,"text":"在這個時候歐盟也開始思索對美國的依賴那我們更需要謹慎的因應那今天的質詢我想要聚焦在外交部如何強化對美的溝通跟推動美國跟美國FTA的進程還有我們對全球政經風險有沒有必要來重新佈局外交經貿戰略來確保我們的利益跟經貿的安全"},{"start":11004.761,"end":11030.478,"text":"所以您也知道我們整個權力在重組國際局勢的權力重組規則也在重建那麼在川普的這個強勢回歸再次走向貿易的保護主義跟單邊主義的路線全球經貿現在的秩序大亂那台灣在對美經貿政策外交安全跟供應鏈佈局上現在面臨很大的挑戰那你們的這個角色又相形非常重要"},{"start":11031.218,"end":11057.052,"text":"那也因為美中戰略競合的態勢一直持續美國對中國及其全球的貿易網絡的圍堵也外溢到影響到台灣所以32%的關稅引起我們的很大的震撼那出口導向經濟的核心利益直接被衝擊當然昨天已經做出一些調整但是很多地方還是值得檢討那現在的架構台灣還沒有跟美國簽訂自由貿易協定"},{"start":11059.153,"end":11082.85,"text":"第二個部分是21世紀倡議貿易倡議到現在也只有制度性的對話跟初步的章節的安排也沒有實質的保障那我們如何來強化兩台美的經貿關係快速FTA的進程那本席這邊的問題是如果川普繼續落實他所有對美國剋稅者皆將遭反制的稅責邏輯"},{"start":11084.471,"end":11099.368,"text":"台灣作為順差來源國的波及影響可能會是長時間那外交部與駐美的代表處現階段跟美國國會白宮幕僚跟產業界整個的溝通計畫跟情形的評估是不是可以請教次長"},{"start":11099.989,"end":11115.763,"text":"那麼我們傳統上面每處跟美國的國會都議員那麼保持著非常良好的關係那麼這一次我們的跟美國的談判也透過很多的有我的參議員透過剛才講的國會白宮物料產業界"},{"start":11116.724,"end":11141.136,"text":"那麼白宮幕僚的方面的話我們當然也是透過正式的管道跟各界的這個官員能夠接觸現在這個我們跟USTR包括美國的USTR包括美國的這個財政部以及美國的商務部都已經取得聯繫那就好像這個委員在這個我們媒體上面看到就是說我們已經掛號成功我想這就是一個我們對美工作的一個成果"},{"start":11141.716,"end":11165.984,"text":"那麼對外圍的智庫我們希望能夠去形塑他們對於台灣的經濟發展的一個正確的認識這個東西也同時也要讓他們知道說台灣希望利用了用這一次的一個機會做整個經濟體質上面的一個調整所以對美國的這個白宮的幕僚你們現在有相關的管道是 沒錯這個是我們在他們對接著的幕僚都有產業界的部分"},{"start":11166.904,"end":11189.257,"text":"產業界的部分當然是以我們跟美國產業的緊密結合的程度我們當然也動員我們在產業界的人脈那這個部分你們有沒有機會匯後提供給本席這邊你們再評估一個簡單的相關的資料但是其實很多的東西可能牽涉到雙方的判判他們協助的時候不太希望能夠曝光"},{"start":11190.598,"end":11208.727,"text":"好的那就請外交部就一個架構上然後你目前掌握的一個比例讓本席了解好那第二個部分我們來談一下這個地緣政治那中共最近多次透過環台性的封鎖性的軍事演習對於我們的能源物流跟貿易的動線我們看出了我們的脆弱性"},{"start":11209.367,"end":11228.348,"text":"那這不僅是軍事的威嚇對經貿有可能產生很大的直接挑戰所以這類情境我們是不是有建立海域封鎖下國際支持與通報網絡第二個部分是我們是不是有主動與美方或其他戰略夥伴建立預警、能源協助跟國際供應鏈重啟機制"},{"start":11230.35,"end":11247.167,"text":"那畢竟當前貿易戰也有一些灰色的地帶那所以美國外交的不穩定性那也導致歐盟對於之前的這個俄烏戰爭知道目前他們有可能在原烏的這個相關的資源會中斷那也威脅到"},{"start":11248.362,"end":11263.772,"text":"北約那美國拉近俄羅斯的這樣一個戰略大家都也很憂慮所以我們就歐盟現在開始檢討美制武器的依賴程度那我想我國在這個部分也有很大的影響所以在這個部分"},{"start":11264.853,"end":11286.319,"text":"美國的可預測性現在變動性非常高所以外交部是不是有評估報告來針對未來美國縮減如果美國縮減印太地區的軍事承諾那我們要如何因應第二個部分我們有沒有思考跟歐洲日本還有印度等本地來擴大政治備援的這個網絡來分散我們對單一強權的依附"},{"start":11288.277,"end":11308.093,"text":"是 報告委員 第一個是說我們現在並沒有感受到美國對於這個區域的安全承諾有任何降低的一個傾向可是這個 我想我們的這個感覺是非常的直接喔你們沒有感受到不是說沒有感受到 包括我們對於像這個美國國防部長 新任國防部長他在這個"},{"start":11309.594,"end":11335.749,"text":"就任之後第一趟的這個亞洲行第一次的海外訪問就是到亞洲到亞洲的時候拜訪了我們北邊跟南邊重要的這個安全的這個夥伴菲律賓跟日本那我想說展現出來的一個態勢是說美國依然堅定的維護它在這個地方對於有盟的這個安全承諾以及它對於台海的和平穩定的一個重視這是我們現在感受到的一個狀況好的 謝謝市長當然我們會在這個聲明"},{"start":11337.25,"end":11362.771,"text":"更重要的是說我們自己防衛自己的決心以及對國防持續的投資我想這個才是我們安全最重要的一個方案是的 本席在這邊一直提醒那戰略夥伴的一個網絡的支持是本席今天一直提醒的一個重點有 這個都有在進行好的 所以我們的外交支持不是只有口號沒有很重要的是要實質的航運、能源跟市場接替的方案所以我請外交部跟相關的部會一定要主動的去做一些處理"},{"start":11363.932,"end":11389.618,"text":"那我最後這邊不用問的啦但我還是提醒南非日前要求我們牽管的這個事件那代表我們在外交站這個部分有需要再強力的去做一些處理那第二個部分是我們知道緬甸的地震讓外交部如何很快的來掌握災情提供人道的協助那也考慮到在這也關係到我們的責任關係人的國際能見度所以提供給您參考"},{"start":11390.558,"end":11416.121,"text":"第三個部分是新加坡國安統籌的部長公開表示中美如果要避免衝突必須要先解決台灣的問題而且這樣的言論一直暫步到東協的相關國家那我們有沒有政策來準備面對區域國家對台灣議題國際化建區保守的趨勢這個是不是會後可以給本席一個回應"},{"start":11417.161,"end":11442.241,"text":"是 雖然說我們的感覺並不是這個樣子包括這個新加坡的好的 那如果那個外交部的感覺不是這樣是不是針對本席這邊所提到的問題然後在會後給本席相關的回應如果你們的感覺跟本席不一樣那最後我要提醒的是我們必須要在風險來臨之前確定制度的保障法律的框架跟利益的連結主動布局 快速應變"},{"start":11443.902,"end":11460.888,"text":"主席我最後可不可以做一個宣告這個跟你我都有很直接的關係因為他這個議題是很突然當然跟今天的委員會不是那麼的直接賓夕要為台東來發聲尤其是東海岸"},{"start":11461.468,"end":11486.815,"text":"那本席要表達一個立場要求立即阻止台東海岸離岸風電的開發我們不是反對再生能源但是我們堅決反對不顧地方意見未經共識然後就要插滿近60座大型風機的粗暴開發台東海岸是全台很美麗的最純淨的一段海岸如果被這些大型的機具風機來遮蔽我們還認得出來是台東嗎"},{"start":11490.896,"end":11516.163,"text":"所以根據目前業者的規劃風機可能設置在學校的附近它會破壞景觀最重要的是它關係到居民的健康與安全低頻的噪音電磁輻射對我們的孩子對長輩對大家對整個社區都是潛在的風險我們不能被模糊的數據跟空泛的保證來說服台東人有權決定自己家園的命運"},{"start":11518.257,"end":11523.895,"text":"好 謝謝李倩琪委員上台之心接下來由林楚英委員上台之心"},{"start":11534.18,"end":11549.014,"text":"謝謝主席因為時間有限我先請部會的首長一起上來外交部陳正次經濟部是江正次然後我們財政部的謝長次還有我們陸委會的沈副主委"},{"start":11551.598,"end":11570.775,"text":"好 先有請外交部市長 我就直接詢問其實現在還是有許多的媒體甚至於外界在造謠說美方是已讀不回所以說對台灣來講這個對可能還沒有排上所以我要很明確的詢問在這一波談判當中我們有信心是已經接上線"},{"start":11572.171,"end":11593.297,"text":"我們不是有信心,我們現在已經掛上號,而且這個是經過美國的白宮相關的人士證實所以說並不是空泛的我們去有個感覺而已這是確實的事情,我們已經排上號,我們就是在那個75國的名單裡面我們馬上要,我們ready,而且我們隨時要準備開始進行談判"},{"start":11594.517,"end":11616.815,"text":"那麼因為我們已經ready我們掛上號我們隨時都已經準備要好談判其實從川普昨天半夜的決定就可以看得出來他很明確的就是希望能夠在這場關稅風暴底下去紅色供應鏈甚至於呢就是要讓全球在這場貿易的關稅當中要做出決定跟選擇是不是"},{"start":11618.416,"end":11632.112,"text":"沒錯,我想這個非紅供應鏈是川普很重要的,從第一任開始,他的一個重要的政策。那台灣因為我們的政策選擇上面,我想我們現在來說是站在對的一方。"},{"start":11632.605,"end":11644.287,"text":"好我想這個對於所有的全國民眾來講可以先暫緩休息90天來看我們行政團隊的表現這相當重要的好謝謝鄭次喔我現在有請經濟部跟財政部我首先先問經濟部其實美中貿易戰在川普第一任的時候就已經展開了2018年就有美中貿易戰之後台灣為了因應我們曾經有修正法律也就是在2019年的時候我們修正了貿易法"},{"start":11658.55,"end":11684.82,"text":"那麼在這個法案的過程當中為什麼要做這樣的修正其實最重要的就是避免在美中貿易戰底下台灣變成息產地的中介是吧那麼整體來說我想要就問經濟部跟財政部因為我知道這個政策過去是關務署署長啦這個部分我想您一定非常的了解喔那麼在修法之後息產地的件數有沒有減少經濟部或財政部都可以"},{"start":11686.696,"end":11701.453,"text":"報告委員其實我們一直都在嚴加的管制進口監視的這個措施一直都沒有中斷而且呢我們也經常辦理相關的宣導會所以其實現在的廠商都非常的注意洗產地這個規定"},{"start":11704.276,"end":11718.864,"text":"這個樣的措施也是我們所不容許的好 所以我想問的重點就是那我們在這個裁處的案件是不是有逐漸減少當中而且外界或者是美國是不是在我們2019年修法之後至今到現在2025年"},{"start":11722.363,"end":11749.982,"text":"習產地的案件是有效減少嗎然後來自中國習產地的比例又是如何來 財政部是 跟委員報告其實我們查獲的件數有388件其中輸往美國的有133件我們倒是沒有去比較修法前跟修法後的變化但是事實上海關一直都在執行好 我知道海關相當的辛苦啦尤其在這個部分但是為什麼我會特別問這個是如果我們從2018年"},{"start":11752.043,"end":11777.049,"text":"看到美中貿易戰2019年修法到現在如果我們能夠透過修法有效的減少而且讓美方有看到我們是一個民主法治的國家我們有法規而且我們守法而且我們執法有成效我相信這個對於談判代表來講這就是一個很好的數據如果現在沒有我建議你們其實應該要讓數據透明出來有沒有道理"},{"start":11778.486,"end":11804.417,"text":"那麼就是因為擔心席產地喔但是我現在擔心啊是上有政策下有政策對策而且在藍白聯手底下的立法院不知道會通過什麼法案我們2019年把它杜絕起來之後我們看到2024年這個也是我跟財政部關務署所要的資料目前2024年對美國輸出的五大商品因為其實很多樣所以我大概做了五大類"},{"start":11805.037,"end":11808.247,"text":"就是USB極限器是排名第一有一兆"},{"start":11810.013,"end":11816.138,"text":"199億然後電腦主機是5112億電腦主機零件及附件第三名是2174億IC第四名是2153億網路設備是570億我想這個就是展現出台灣在對美之間貿易的部分但是我現在非常擔憂的是這些台灣可以製造中國也可以製造是吧"},{"start":11836.236,"end":11853.507,"text":"當中國面對現在川普所迎來的一百多超過破百的關稅的時候這些東西會不會透過台灣變成是一個席產地呢我想剛剛其實沈伯環委員也跟我注意到了同樣的問題那就是國民黨所提出的離島示範區"},{"start":11856.048,"end":11879.593,"text":"難道現在是要為中國習產地開後門嗎從第18條之一的第6項當中我來念給大家聽大陸地區人民法人團體機構資金物品商品老物及服務進出離島自由示範區是可以透過主管機關來做一個特別的擬定其中他的說明欄就講了"},{"start":11881.199,"end":11897.128,"text":"會給予適度相關規定的鬆綁所以我就請教陸委會這個是不是在我們2019年修法而且我們有效的杜絕所謂洗產地之後現在藍白聯手"},{"start":11898.735,"end":11917.654,"text":"要使中國的廠商、勞力、貨物能夠透過洗產地的方式透過所謂的禮保示範貿易區為中國開後門如果這樣的法規過了之後我們是不是就是選對的人走對的路選錯的人關稅超過一百"},{"start":11918.917,"end":11942.754,"text":"我想現在基本上陸委會的態度還是說關於離島建設條例的部分還是必須要在兩岸人民關係條例底下來去做進行了那委員所關心的有沒有可能反而變成是我們開了這個國安的後門確實我們也認為現在這個法律在當前社會沒有共識尤其是我們全力的在進行一個要脫離紅色供應鏈的這種國際的這種氛圍底下的話那麼也應該要用國安的這個層次來去做一個思考"},{"start":11943.234,"end":11968.373,"text":"所以如果說他涉及到國安的這個議題同時在國內也是有高度的疑慮更甚至於是我們現在看到美國總統川普也特別的關注希望全球的民主國家都能夠謹慎的來跟中國保持一個經貿的往來的一個距離的話那貿然的來去做一個開放確實有可能會在人流物流金流都有可能會開後門造成國安疑慮甚至會影響到台美關係的情況底下應該要更審慎的來做一個評估"},{"start":11968.933,"end":11987.221,"text":"好這是陸委會的立場嘛那我問一下經濟部因為如果是離島建設條例當然相關的話這也跟經濟有關如果扣一個經濟的帽子當然你說要讓離島能夠推進經濟能夠繁榮等等我們都同意不然不會我們看到這幾天全球股市"},{"start":11988.061,"end":12001.257,"text":"因為川普的一句話或是美國的一個決定就會像洗三溫暖一樣大起大落但是這個法案目前他就在立法院裡面如果經濟部被問到相關的離島"},{"start":12002.54,"end":12018.124,"text":"自由貿易示範區要讓大陸地區的人民法人團體機關資金物流勞力服務通通可以透過這個示範區做一定程度的適度鬆綁請問這個會給我們的現在面臨的貿易談判帶來什麼樣的衝擊跟危險"},{"start":12025.309,"end":12050.979,"text":"報告委員您剛所提到的也是政府的顧慮所以我認為我們應該要好好的處理所以這個條例現在我們也希望在立法院討論的時候必須要顧及到國際的趨勢的發展那剛才陸委會的長官也有表達說這個條例的內容已經涉及到整體的國家的安全所以這個部分一定要去非常的注重這一點"},{"start":12051.601,"end":12080.544,"text":"好最後我再請外交部正次因為現在這個法規它不是秘密它是你上網可以看得到對外你也知道所以美國也看到所以外交部的立場是什麼會不會現在我們說了我們前面本來有法規我們要杜絕席產地我要講喔USB極限器電腦主機電腦主機零件IC網路設備這些東西台灣可以製造中國在昨天"},{"start":12081.894,"end":12105.197,"text":"蔡局長也是國安局蔡局長所提出來的國安局報告當中就有特別提到了中國現在面臨的東西就是經濟下滑內需整個緊縮然後產能過剩他現在最需要的就是把東西直接的往外銷如果台灣現在這樣的一個所謂離島自由貿易市番區出來那是不是給美國錯誤的訊息"},{"start":12106.414,"end":12121.234,"text":"那麼這是我們所擔心的一個方向那麼美國對於這個洗產地的責任非常的重視那麼也這是他整個這個關稅全球佈局的一個用意之所在那麼他會跟美國的盡力的溝通那麼也希望"},{"start":12121.835,"end":12147.24,"text":"那麼剛才這個包括陸委會包括經濟部也表達立場我們也會跟美國來繼續的溝通基於這樣一個立場來繼續溝通然後我們一定會對於這個洗產地的這樣一個作為做全面的一個防範我們不會不希望留下任何的漏洞那麼也當然這方面也是大院能夠這個注意到這樣的一種風險我們會適度的把這個相關的訊息跟這個我們立院這邊來做溝通"},{"start":12148.4,"end":12165.999,"text":"所以從外交部經濟部財政部再到陸委會其實都有明確的立場我們也透過質詢台對外轉達只是很遺憾現在就是國民黨加民眾黨超過半數所以我也希望透過這個質詢台透過這個直播讓全球的國人可以看到到底選對的人走錯選對的人"},{"start":12168.484,"end":12187.237,"text":"就會走對的路選錯的人到底造成什麼樣的路我想大家都看得到那麼我也希望這個離島自由示範區條例這個案子最好藍白能夠自己把它先內部把它取消掉謝謝感謝謝謝林淑英委員上台質詢接下來由李坤澄上台質詢"},{"start":12199.221,"end":12210.397,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們邀請經濟部的江政務次長還有行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表嚴副總代表"},{"start":12218.31,"end":12230.362,"text":"賴總統在這兩天有在彭博新聞社發表一篇文章台灣已有深化對美貿易關係的路徑圖希望透過對話努力排除台美的貿易障礙"},{"start":12232.463,"end":12256.197,"text":"將關稅劃減為零那不曉得兩位有沒有看過總統的這篇文章都有看過嘛那裡面有提到就是說希望把關稅這個劃減為零他說這個台灣目前的這個對美國的這個平均關稅是百分之六希望在這個互惠的基礎上面進一步降至零那藉由排除自由公平貿易的最後的障礙希望促進雙邊的這個擴大貿易與投資的規模"},{"start":12259.659,"end":12268.733,"text":"那總統這樣子講那是不是說我們本來有一個台美21世紀的貿易倡議那要直接跨一大步了就要到這一個FTA的自由貿易協定了"},{"start":12270.899,"end":12288.016,"text":"好謝謝委員那我想那個因為台美貿易倡議他基本上在解決的是法規的之間的連結的問題那我們現在透過因為法規連結他可能形成的障礙實際上也是川普政府現在對等關稅的衡量基礎所以我們會利用台美倡議所達成的這些共識來作為我們去化解我們對等關稅的稅率的這個的基礎"},{"start":12293.641,"end":12315.717,"text":"但是這是去年通過的第一階段那是還沒有關稅啊那現在有關稅了那要做的一定是不一樣嘛那我的意思是說總統竟然有這樣子講那是不是有什麼新的策略要出來因為他直接有講希望能夠關稅能夠化解到最後到零啊那是一大步耶那化解到零那所以我才問說那是不是就是要這個跟自由貿易協定是有相關的"},{"start":12316.82,"end":12325.805,"text":"我想自由貿易協定可以是有包含降關稅也可以包含只有純粹法規連結那現在因為賴總統所指示的就是希望從我們現在台美之間各自台灣輸美的這個有76%美國輸台有62%是零關稅我們就是以這個基礎往上去談看哪一些產品可以逐步去納入我們可以"},{"start":12338.671,"end":12356.179,"text":"調降關稅的一個範圍那目的就是還是要去降低我們的對等關稅現在適用的一些品項那所以我想如何從台美21世紀倡議跨越到是不是可以走向台美FTA我想這個是我們要努力的方向因為總統有這樣子說嘛那所以我是說"},{"start":12357.199,"end":12368.845,"text":"因為這個就是在川普宣布對等關稅之後雖然現在是從32%降成10%但是總統他有這個說法那是不是說我們在跟美國在談判的時候"},{"start":12369.921,"end":12396.038,"text":"有什麼樣新的 比如說新的措施或是說進一步的想要達成什麼樣的協議來讓總統他所提到的說希望能夠把關稅降到零那這也是能夠降低就是說這個美方認為說我們關稅好像課得太高 其實是沒有啦他是用這個貿易的逆差來做的那所以請教這個副總代表那如何落實總統所提到的說這個排除自由貿易的這個最後的障礙"},{"start":12398.218,"end":12405.261,"text":"我想排除貿易障礙呢基本上我們也要從美國現在的需求來討論那美國的需求他已經很明確說了要去跟他談對等關稅的下降不外乎要從三個目標第一個目標就是現在的關稅如果過高的我們要去評估如何下降第二個就是他們長期點名出來的在他們的"},{"start":12418.385,"end":12443.578,"text":"NTE就是他們的這個非關稅貿易障礙報告裡面長期關鍵的議題那我們要加以處理以及第三個即便你有前面的關稅跟非關稅措施但是他必須要能夠反映在降低貿易逆差上這三個目標都是缺一不可所以我想我們就是取得賴總統的授權從零關稅的基礎開始談但是必須要能夠達成美方所期待的三個目標"},{"start":12444.178,"end":12461.935,"text":"那所以也是這一次我們打算去跟美國談的最主要的這個三個目標嗎這是會是我們努力的方向好那我再問一下這一個江次長好了那現在就是說要消除這一個剛有提到這個對美的這一個非關稅的貿易障礙那這部分的話經濟部要做什麼樣的處理"},{"start":12463.035,"end":12490.382,"text":"在經濟部的部分的話大概非關稅貿易障礙目前美方比較關心的是我們的智慧財產權的落實的情形所以我們已經積極地在做相關的檢討就只有這部分而已嗎涉及經濟部的部分那財政部的部分咧據我們了解目前USTR提出來對財政部的項目是屬於明久的課稅的問題"},{"start":12492.35,"end":12501.772,"text":"這只有米酒客稅的問題嗎?沒有其他的問題嗎?當然我們違規轉運也是美方非常關切的部分那它不是還有點名一些產業嗎?這不是在經濟部,是在農業部嗎?我簡單補充一下,當然它還有提到的像跟這些我記得它有提到七項嘛"},{"start":12516.738,"end":12526.585,"text":"至少提到七項嘛對 還有提到服務業還有提到外人投資的限制然後當然還有提到農業的一些我們長期的這些關稅配合的議題那這邊要怎麼做處理勒"},{"start":12529.355,"end":12551.812,"text":"我想我們現在就是由這個鄭麗君副院長所領軍的這個團隊那台美經貿工作小組一直在盤點這些議題然後當然我覺得最重要的是我們會尋求是兼顧國人的健康糧食安全這些目的之下那當然有一些非關稅貿易障礙議題他可能會涉及到國內法是否要修法這個也需要我們取得朝野的共識"},{"start":12552.512,"end":12564.735,"text":"所以我想我們必須要綜合的去通盤的檢討才能夠確定台灣在非關稅議題上面可以跟美方提出怎麼樣的一個解決方式好那我們現在這個談判的代表團何時要去美國"},{"start":12566.463,"end":12586.991,"text":"我想我們現在就是持續的在溝通那要確認美方他現在希望我們因為他的談判團隊我們也要確認成績那才可以來決定我們台灣怎麼樣的一個談判的一個組成因為現在有90天的這一個緩衝時間嘛那所以說等美國那邊確定之後我方就會過去就對了對 我們現在持續的這個在規劃當中好 謝謝 謝謝三位 謝謝主席"},{"start":12594.041,"end":12622.192,"text":"謝謝李坤臣委員上台諮詢那接下來有葉言之委員上台諮詢請外交部次長各位您好"},{"start":12623.298,"end":12644.605,"text":"那個部長說我們已經跟白宮掛號成功了那請問一下這個掛號大概掛到幾號是會很快去談判還是會等很久因為我們現在只有90天的時間這樣來說好了就像是說其實在這個醫院裡面掛號我們是已經透過這個相關的管道我們已經預約好大概什麼時候可以開始談"},{"start":12645.585,"end":12664.691,"text":"這個還要看美方的一個進度還要看美方所以有可能會排很久以後因為90天我們一定比那個現在現場掛號的要快很多快很多大概是大概是怎麼樣時間我們約90天其實75號以內75號以內是那所以是多久你一號要看幾天啊不要跟我在那邊耍嘴皮子好不好這很嚴肅的議題耶"},{"start":12665.911,"end":12692.936,"text":"沒有那個這個看幾天90天之內對呀你75號你1號看兩天那100多天的啊不會不會所以你要對啦所以不要現在是第一個越快越好因為說實在你沒有給一個我們國內的廠商一個明確的答案他們現在無所適從啊他要不要增加資本投資他到底要怎麼因應所以當然要越快越快越好但是我覺得我們在談判因為我知道次長那個部長有講說您是副總談判"},{"start":12696.179,"end":12709.619,"text":"在談判上我們都知道要give and take可是現在川普的態度其實蠻高傲的我看到媒體報導他說現在各國的領導人都搶著拍他馬屁英文叫kiss my ass"},{"start":12710.779,"end":12732.002,"text":"他是這樣子講的然後說各國領導人找他都是說拜託啦來跟我做交易啦我什麼都願意意思是說他先把我們的關稅提高到32%然後呢好像只要在這32%以內他把它降下來對 那就是給你恩惠的可是實際上像現在的10%對我們的國家的產業也都是有影響的"},{"start":12733.163,"end":12747.841,"text":"所以我覺得在談判上面我覺得還是要堅持我們國家的利益第一件事情是當然美方非常重視我們一些貿易障礙非關稅的貿易障礙例如說食安在他們的報告裡面就有提到"},{"start":12748.513,"end":12771.434,"text":"他們對於我們進口的配額啊 像檢疫啊 或者是基因食品啊這些他們都覺得是非關稅的貿易障礙但這牽涉到我們國內的食安問題所以你在談判上有沒有可能說因為他說大家都搶著去拍他馬屁啦所以你給我放寬你的食安那我們就好好好 因為我們什麼都願意 所以我們就放寬在談判上會這樣嘛"},{"start":12773.373,"end":12793.079,"text":"我們在談判上面當然一定要顧及我們的國家的利益但是我們也跟委員報告我們這跟美國的這個在關稅上面的一個互動其實不妨把它看成是我們的整個產業的結構的一個調整那麼過去必然回答我的問題就好針對我的問題回答就好我是說你在談判的時候"},{"start":12794.079,"end":12820.366,"text":"我們要堅持台灣的利益譬如說台灣人重視的食安一定要堅持一定會把我們的這個包括的消費者的利益放在跟美方的談判裡面的重要的位置裡面再來就是譬如說賴總統投書媒體他說要以零關稅為基礎可是實際上很多經濟學者都指出其實我們的法定關稅不算高大概2%左右只有個別的產業的關稅比較高譬如說汽車或保健食品"},{"start":12820.686,"end":12848.411,"text":"所以零關稅對美國是沒有什麼吸引力關鍵還是要拿出其他的籌碼去跟他談判其中有一個我昨天看到郭智慧部長講我是嚇一跳因為白宮的經濟顧問召集人米倫是有提到五個方法說可以跟美國談判其中第五個是說直接捐錢給美國財政部你知道嗎那昨天郭智慧部長是講說這也沒有不可以"},{"start":12849.653,"end":12865.987,"text":"那有學者就提出來就講說沒事我們幹嘛捐錢給他又不是政災然後又不是說我們戰敗國然後沒事捐錢給美國的我不知道說那個副總談判代表您的看法是怎樣完全同意這個委員的這個提醒"},{"start":12866.647,"end":12884.706,"text":"那麼我們在談判上面當然堅持我方領養尋求雙方最大的利益交集那這是我們談判的一個策略那麼像對於美方這些東西不盡完全合理的地方也盡力的來溝通希望能夠達成雙方的這個共識那零關稅用零關稅方式談判你自己覺得有用嗎"},{"start":12885.106,"end":12910.162,"text":"我們是用零關稅為基礎但就好像剛才這個這個顏惠欣這個顏副總談判代表這邊來說的一樣喔包括非關稅壁壘非這個還有包括我們的這個相關的這個稅其實是第三個很重要的是有關於這個貿易赤字的這個部分那美方現在是用結果論的方式所以貿易赤字是我們要努力的一個方式那我再跟國務委員報告說"},{"start":12911.082,"end":12934.683,"text":"這個東西不用看成是一個對我方的利益的一個損失它可以看成是一個我們的整個經濟體質調整的一個契機我是覺得你不用粉絲太平啦這個對台灣的經濟絕對是影響很大啦不可否認那零關稅部分特別要提醒一下因為我剛剛講零關稅美方不見得會有吸引力啦但它有沒有可能談部分產業零關稅"},{"start":12936.601,"end":12946.045,"text":"你們說農業部分兩邊零關稅那其實對我們農業產業就不是啦那這對我們農業產業就會有影響嘛這個東西當然是說我們還要提升我們自己的產業經驗在整理"},{"start":12948.793,"end":12969.813,"text":"農業部那時候在那個學校推一個什麼斑斑喝鮮奶政策就是因應紐西蘭的牛奶鮮乳零關稅進來台灣為了保護弱農所以叫小朋友喝鮮奶但是因為那時候政策也沒有配套所以也無極而終這真的對於一下下無極而終其實你如果要因應農業零關稅後面政府要做的規劃跟配套非常多"},{"start":12970.313,"end":12995.755,"text":"沒錯所以我覺得那個談判方方面面啦不要像川普講的一樣好像大家都都是排隊等著要來拍他馬屁啦該怎樣怎樣我們該堅持的國人的利益還是要堅持住的在談判過程中一定會兼顧國人的利益以及尋求上方最大的利益交集感謝委員謝謝葉迎之委員上台質詢接下來由曾振權"},{"start":12996.876,"end":13014.973,"text":"委員上台諮詢鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員那王宏威委員上台諮詢王宏威委員王宏威委員不在那蘇欽賢委員蘇欽賢委員蘇欽賢委員不在"},{"start":13020.08,"end":13046.552,"text":"那張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在那黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員不在那接下來就是林義軍委員"},{"start":13049.063,"end":13057.865,"text":"林一新委員已提出書面質詢已登記執行委員除不在場外已發言完畢報告及詢問結束"},{"start":13071.462,"end":13096.701,"text":"提出書面的質詢,請列入記錄並刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢,為其答覆部分或要求補充資料者,請相關機關以書面與兩周內答覆。委員另約定期限者,從期所定。本日會議到此結束。"},{"start":13110.828,"end":13110.888,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16579","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16579","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373ddf824e3382b7a8d00f9a65472a0a5ac34af80a8cb003b9baf5e63dd226c42a945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-10T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T12:05:00+08:00","duration":12854,"影片長度":"03:34:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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各位委員長今天很高興來大院報告中央醫院的業務狀況首先我們就近期的業務重點做個摘述其餘請各位參見我們的書面報告下一張"},{"start":2308.789,"end":2319.314,"text":"首先我們在幾個禮拜前宣布我們攜手國內頂尖的學者組成下世代太陽能電池的研發團隊已經成功開發轉換效率超過31%的下世代疊層式的鈣態礦細基的太陽能電池元件"},{"start":2328.458,"end":2354.949,"text":"这个对未来升级太阳能发电装置非常有帮助也是首次国内的团队能够突破这么高的转换率的限制那我们正在与太阳能电池制造商携手成立台湾叠层太阳能电池研发联盟希望能共同开发可商品化的叠层太阳能电池材料与元件提升台湾绿色产业的价值下一张"},{"start":2356.175,"end":2384.497,"text":"在树立组的重要研究成果方面环变中心与美国17大学及其他的非盈利组织共同研究西北大西洋沿岸鲨鱼体内的永久性化学物质研究数据将有助于制定与改善PFAS相关的海域污染及食安规范地球科学研究所与国立中正大学合作发展新的台湾造山模型重现台湾造山带复杂的构造"},{"start":2385.509,"end":2401.964,"text":"天文及天文物理研究所利用高效能運算主機經歷兩年多的密集運算成功建立全球第一個二維多波段輻射流體模型為理解超新星振波閃光的物理機制提供全新的視角"},{"start":2404.564,"end":2422.143,"text":"環變中心設計多組數值模擬實驗深入探討氣候變遷對空氣品質的影響在全球暖化二度C的情境下探討PM2.5濃度的空間變異性化學研究所與國立陽明交通大學合作"},{"start":2423.084,"end":2434.635,"text":"成功開發一種基於導電高分子的梯度介面建構技術可用於各種生物電子晶片也可用於視網膜退化性疾病及視神經病變視網膜神經細胞修復"},{"start":2440.353,"end":2465.547,"text":"量子密碼的研究團隊探討一種新型的密碼工具稱為單向謎題在量子計算經典通信模型的重要性這個重要量子密碼學的模型奠定重要的理論基礎下一張在生命組的近期重要研究成果方面生物醫學研究所發現慢性疼痛會活化"},{"start":2467,"end":2493.352,"text":"丘腦前四膀核中的特定神經元存體那這是大腦的新發現揭示了慢性疼痛的感覺與情緒的來源生物多樣性中心發現無害菌縮具有在腸道中代謝黃體素的能力那這個無害菌縮導致口腹黃體質失效這個也是成為一個不孕症治療的一個新的契機"},{"start":2495.149,"end":2514.316,"text":"分子生物研究所与国立台湾大学日本国立遗传研究所合作改善了癌症化疗的新方向利用蛋白质一个蛋白质叫做HURP的蛋白质与Beta微管蛋白结合提供癌症细胞抗药性的新的一个基转下一张"},{"start":2515.602,"end":2541.613,"text":"生醫所同樣的也研發可釋放多種多重免疫治療的益生菌載體達到消滅腫瘤及提升抗癌免疫力的效果細胞與個體生物研究所與西班牙的研究團隊合作研究澎湖獄柱蟲解密海底漆動物與人類共同祖先的發育機制與演化"},{"start":2542.953,"end":2560.172,"text":"分子生物研究所以小鼠为研究对象并利用AI及高透亮影像截取技术打造可观察小鼠全脑神经细胞的高解析度荧光显微影像定位与定量的分析系统下一张"},{"start":2561.923,"end":2572.711,"text":"在人文組方面,十一所的陳正國研究員出版了《什麼是思想史》的一個專書回顧近百年來英語世界思想史研究的演變"},{"start":2574.229,"end":2596.979,"text":"近代史研究所陳冠任駐研究員他出版了一本叫做《繪製美國在東亞的冷戰海圖》包括主權、區域利益與國際安全專書透過對西太平洋地區深入的研究揭示海洋地緣政治價值與美國及東亞決策者戰略考量之間的緊密關聯性"},{"start":2599.143,"end":2618.696,"text":"經濟所陳明郎研究員發表了生命循環模型人力資本投資下的最適稅制他從經濟學的角度出發探討在生命週期模型下如何設計最優的稅收政策我想這本書對現在我們跟美國的談判應該非常有幫助"},{"start":2621.328,"end":2640.01,"text":"人文社会科学中心的陈一中研究员出版了《马克思从共和主义到共产主义》这本专书,透过对马克思文本的细致分析,并将其置于更广阔的政治与思想史脉络中进行考察,深入剖析马克思思想的形成与发展过程。"},{"start":2640.771,"end":2654.116,"text":"歐美所吳建輝研究員出版《台灣與中國之間的外交關係轉換,經濟與社會影響》論文集,透過深入分析台灣與中國在全球範圍內的競爭,揭示兩岸關係的複雜性與多樣性。"},{"start":2659.369,"end":2685.752,"text":"社會所的汪洪倫研究員發表了轉型正義轉化式對話與公民審議探索和和解共生的可能性他從社會學的角度探討台灣的轉型正義問題指出台灣的轉型正義不僅涉及政治制度的改革更涉及到集體記憶的重建我們在原住民研究方面"},{"start":2686.906,"end":2712.877,"text":"我們與原住民族實驗學校合作共同製作數位學習教案112年完成前導課程懸殷探秘口黃情文化的教育共鳴我們也與原住民部落合作提供數位學習資源將部落文化以數位形式展示給世界讓大眾認識並尊重原住民的歷史和文化下一張"},{"start":2716.636,"end":2736.245,"text":"我們在AI推廣及應用方面我們成立了AI推動辦公室下面設了AI合作社與AI風險研究小組等編組推出AI創新研究計畫並且致力於智慧化行政革新並且我們在全方位培育AI的人才下一張"},{"start":2740.171,"end":2746.948,"text":"我們的團隊也在過去幾個月內得到許多重要的學術獎項"},{"start":2748.858,"end":2771.073,"text":"譬如說在教育部的學術獎,今年我們有六名研究人員得到教育部學術獎為近年之最,其中包括人文及藝術類的語言所齊麗莎研究員、社會科學類經濟所徐金研究員及陳明郎研究員,在同一個所同時獲得兩個教育部學術獎是非常難能可貴的。"},{"start":2772.074,"end":2792.237,"text":"数学及自然科学类天文所的李景慧特批研究员及数学所的于家富研究员得到了学术奖生物及医农科学类生医所的谢庆和特批研究员拿到学术奖我们也拿到16位的国科会杰出奖这也都是非常难能可贵的一个表现"},{"start":2793.103,"end":2816.651,"text":"那我们在有七名研究员拿到国科会一一三年杰出特约研究员之外我们有两位院士得到国际大奖及紫微所的无质量助研究员深度中心林国勤特聘研究员也分别得到的这个欧洲这个生物分子生物学组织全球研究学者及德国马里奥马库斯的科学奖那下一位"},{"start":2818.359,"end":2843.067,"text":"我們也致力於推展國際合作 深化國際交流在上個月我們也率團去英國訪問 拜訪了英國皇家科學院及British Academy 及UK Biobank還有一些重要的學術單位 包括劍橋大學 牛津大學等等進行雙邊的交流"},{"start":2845.25,"end":2862.591,"text":"我們也預計今年首度舉辦中研學術大會今年下半年也會跟世界和平基金會共同舉辦台灣橋樑計畫邀請二十多位諾貝爾獎得主來台灣訪問我們在今年五月也會舉辦台灣研究世界大會"},{"start":2866.642,"end":2888.633,"text":"我們也致力於培植下世代科研人才我們推出中業學者計劃每年以穩定的研究經費支持大學的研究人員我們也推出了博士生獎助金方案到目前為止有700位博士生受惠每月得到4到5萬元的獎學金"},{"start":2891.505,"end":2903.615,"text":"此外我們也推出人文社會科學的博士等精英獎學金到目前為止有16位獲獎者剩下的我們就請各位參考我們的書面報告謝謝大家"},{"start":2910.596,"end":2920.786,"text":"謝謝 謝謝我們中央研究院廖院長的口頭報告那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘 必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘"},{"start":2924.79,"end":2947.987,"text":"发言登记截止时间为上午11点30分委员如果临时提案请于上午10点30分前提出并与本会委员李锦本席质询结束后即进行处理处理提案时若提案委员及联署委员均不在场原例不予处理首先我们请发言登记第一位林沛翔委员质询"},{"start":2960.047,"end":2965.871,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 有請廖院長好 有請廖院長林委員長"},{"start":2971.121,"end":2993.162,"text":"院長早安首先我想先請問一下我在報告中有看到我們的南部園區已經成立了所謂的關鍵議題研究中心那聚焦在所謂的這個量子科技海洋能太陽能的電池等領域那基隆因為我是基隆的區域立委那我們也會希望說像這方面的科技"},{"start":2993.622,"end":3008.102,"text":"這科研的資源能夠延展延展到基隆尤其我記得在前瞻計畫裡面曾經有提過這個基隆河谷廊帶的開發計畫那未來可能有一方面來講的話好像有一個生計園區有可能在這個整個工業園"},{"start":3009.083,"end":3032.708,"text":"公園區從這個內科南软這邊直接再延伸到基隆港來那這一點來講的話就請問中研院是否有計畫將南部院區的研究成果與基隆的海洋科技研究資源來做結合譬如說是否考慮在基隆設立所謂海洋能的研究基地來推動黑潮發電的技術在地應用請院長解釋"},{"start":3037.109,"end":3053.377,"text":"謝謝林委員的質詢事實上我們在海洋能的方面已經跟國立海洋大學商談過幾次我們將與國立海洋大學及其他相關的大學合作"},{"start":3054.017,"end":3078.408,"text":"共同在南部院區研發不同形式的海洋能不見得是黑草因為黑草不在基隆那邊所以其他形式的海洋能發電有些是比較適合基隆附近的那部分海洋大學已經做了相當多我們會跟他們持續合作至於未來要怎麼樣把南部院區的研究能量"},{"start":3079.168,"end":3104.749,"text":"擴展到其他地方我們會持續考量那當然基隆是一個可能的選項因為我這點剛剛院長也提到如果既然已經有個海洋大學因為本席正在海洋大學任教雖然我是在這個航運管理的跟我們海洋發電的領域不相不相同但是我們還是很希望能夠看到說中研院有我們的科技研究的資源能夠往基隆這邊發展"},{"start":3106.73,"end":3119.214,"text":"那請問中研院是否有計畫去跟基隆的海洋大學建立所謂跨區域的合作平台來共同推動整個海洋能跟量子科技的應用研究呢"},{"start":3119.854,"end":3142.999,"text":"這當然是可以討論可以思考的方向那我們先從這個目前已經有的跟海洋大學合作的一些面向從這邊開始那主要是海洋的能量的開發的研究那這方面那我們也在南部園區有一個海洋的研究室那這詳細我是請了觀念中心主任來回答一下"},{"start":3144.299,"end":3169.843,"text":"委員好 我是關鍵中心主任李超黃那麼目前在南部縣區我們設立一個台灣海洋核心參數的這個設施那麼基本上是開放給全國的海洋研究的團隊使用那個是跟國科會合作的所以就是不只是南部或者是基隆只要是全國參與海洋研究的我們都可以提供這個設施的服務那跟海洋大學的合作就是剛剛院長講的我很快"},{"start":3170.403,"end":3193.918,"text":"會跟他好幾個學院跟系所來簽訂合作的MOU那麼會挑選最適合的方向很快就會開始推動合作謝謝好 謝謝您的解釋那另外一方面我也想問因為我還是在注重在我們基隆這邊需要的一些有些滿足一些基隆上面產業上的需求那我們其實很知道說中研院在我們AI技術剛剛我看到專案報告上面"},{"start":3194.298,"end":3209.539,"text":"也有在講到我們在AI技術的研發跟應用上面是獲得有顯著的成果的但是如果說AI的應用不能把它落實到產業上面來幫助我們的傳統產業的轉型的話那很可惜這個可能價值性就不足"},{"start":3210.04,"end":3228.744,"text":"那我們基隆的傳統產業像是漁業也好觀光業也好正被你所謂轉型的壓力尤其是說像是我知道說其他國家好像美國吧好像有利用這個AI的技術跟AI的大數據各方面的研究來去幫忙他們去做這個漁群的"},{"start":3229.484,"end":3255.063,"text":"雲群的偵測分析還有預測那這方面來講我覺得我可能就比較少看到說我們台灣這方面有實際上的應用那我覺得以一個科技大國以一個自詡為科技大國來講這點是蠻可惜的那我就想請問中研院是否願意跟基隆市政府跟基隆的漁業界合作將AI技術應用在漁業資源的管理甚至觀光行銷的領域上面來幫助我們基隆的產業來升級呢"},{"start":3256.449,"end":3272.866,"text":"我想我們在AI應用上陳如委員講AI最可貴最重要就是要怎麼樣落地那除了在比較這個高端的科技產業之外更是這個傳統產業百工百業都需要運到AI那短時間我們會找比較"},{"start":3273.707,"end":3297.369,"text":"資源比較多所謂資源就是有許多的數據資源比較多才能做AI訓練所以我們從這方面探討看假如說漁業方面有很多數據那當然也是很好的一個方向但我們還不確定說這方面數據是否足夠來做現在AI運用不過委員提到這一點我們會去探討看說是不是可以用這個方向確實這是可以用的話是非常好的應用方向"},{"start":3298.19,"end":3313.774,"text":"因為為什麼會特地提到漁群的事情是我了解說好像是美國氣象跟海洋研究的機構好像已經他們已經在很積極的去做這方面的事情而且有些成果那我會很直觀的認為如果"},{"start":3316.255,"end":3336.45,"text":"如果美國有就代表這個用AI來去做來去做預測跟觀測魚群的技術就已經相對來講比較成熟了那其實像這樣的技術如果我們台灣如果可以的話接觸研究或者是發展出來屬於我們台灣屬於我們自己的一個不同的技術或不同的方式也是對我們整體來講是會有很大的幫助"},{"start":3338.311,"end":3354.043,"text":"好那再來我想請教一下就是有關說我們中研院其實在我們國際學術界的影響一直都是很重要的甚至這個Academic Sinica這個是在全世界都很有名的但是我們在全球老實講現在這個昨天財經"},{"start":3356.465,"end":3368.909,"text":"昨天降關稅今天又鎖起來這件事情導致說現在全世界都人心惶惶但人心惶惶另外一方面來講美國現在也在大幅度的在減少高等教育的這個經費那這一點來講的話我們是不是當然他們"},{"start":3371.77,"end":3390.181,"text":"Someone's loss is our gain如果說在這方面來講台灣在科技在科研競爭當中我們現在人才還是在流失有資源不足的挑戰那請問我們中研院有沒有什麼具體的策略來吸引現在看起來美國這邊的人現在我知道Columbia好像被砍了不少錢Columbia跟Yale被砍了不少錢"},{"start":3391.041,"end":3405.167,"text":"那有沒有具體策略趁他們現在可能對高等教育沒有那麼專注的時候我們來吸引國際頂尖人才來台把台灣打造出來是另外一個亞太地區的科研樞紐呢好 謝謝委員質詢我們最近確實推了一個計畫我們請國際處孟處長來介紹"},{"start":3409.248,"end":3426.087,"text":"林委員我們剛剛推出一個計畫就是要把台灣的優秀學生留在本國來念博士班尤其是今年他們已經申請了美國學校但是因為種種原因沒有辦法去那我們現在推出一個快速讓他們入學的博士班計畫那已經上線了"},{"start":3426.587,"end":3445.68,"text":"而且昨天已經有學生來詢問我可以問說是哪方面的領域嗎就是本院有13個博士班學生涵蓋數理跟生命科學總共有13個不同的領域所以說我們現在有沒有機會說去挖一些不是只有把本國人留下來把一些外國"},{"start":3447.221,"end":3462.973,"text":"這個我們持續會進行因為要挖角已經事業有成的教授那需要長時間的接觸那不是短時間所以我們會持續進行這方面也陸續聽到"},{"start":3465.074,"end":3489.25,"text":"在美國的有些教授對美國的環境有所維持那在這個狀況之下我們會保持跟他合作保持跟他吸引他們是不是可以短期來台灣從短期變成中期從中期變成長期來台灣從這方向來做那比較快比較直接的就是把現在申請到美國學校但是"},{"start":3490.15,"end":3517.794,"text":"種種原因沒有辦法去或是覺得那邊環境不好或是被這個收回這個emission的這些學生能夠再趕快來中央醫院甚至台灣其他學校這也是很好我們留住這個學生的機會除了留住學生我們可以利用這個機會擴展到吸引國際學生所以我們剛才孟柱講這個計畫不只是台灣學生國際學生也是一樣譬如說其他國際學生申請到美國學校"},{"start":3518.174,"end":3544.988,"text":"因為總統的原因他們認為美國不再適合了那我們說沒關係那台灣可能很適合你那請你來申請我們這學校所以我們也特別放寬了一些時間來吸引這些人我會認為啊就是說人力資本這邊來講人才資本這Human Capital這件事情是一個國力最直接的最直接的保障如果說有良質的Human Capital在每個領域尤其在研發領域的話"},{"start":3546.409,"end":3562.595,"text":"基本上這是個國力增長的象徵尤其是說美國之強就是因為說他當初海納百川現在川普可能反其道而行但是我剛才講過their loss is our gain他們的失去搞不好就是我們加分的時候"},{"start":3563.355,"end":3582.67,"text":"所以這個時候 如果中研院能夠做到一個起頭的作用把一些最頂尖的人才往我們台灣往我們中華民國身上靠 身上收集的話我覺得這會對我們未來會有直接的幫助是是是好 謝謝院長謝謝委員好 謝謝林沛翔委員院長請回我們接下來請柯之恩委員謝謝莊委 我們現在就請院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":3595.677,"end":3624.155,"text":"各位委员早院长早明年六月你大概就是任期期满了所以应该是在现在谢谢好像说完一口气要数馒头了所以距离今年六月的时候你们应该就开始成立的院长的临选委员会应该没错吧应该提前一年有个院长临选委员会我们还是希望他还是能够来秉持一个公正公开的原则不要像你上任之前有一堆的风风雨雨有一些政治因素的一个介入我们还是希望能够"},{"start":3625.075,"end":3639.53,"text":"也很平顺因为相对于你欧情院长跟你比起来的话你的平和没有涉入政治等等来说应该还给中研院一个比较公平干净的一个空间这是一个期许好大家不用担心我的问题到此结束来"},{"start":3641.691,"end":3666.336,"text":"不要愿意还是锁定在这个院长啊你在全国的校长会议里面提到我觉得你讲的东西非常的有道理啊就是台湾学术界都是跟社会脱钩而且制度偏重防弊解决问题对社会贡献才是有一个最大的一个目标所以不要去看论文的排名这是你当初所提到的嘛在全国校长会议我想很多人都深有同感而且您说要走出苏氏圈院长我真的要说啊"},{"start":3666.676,"end":3692.602,"text":"你走出舒适圈这句话让很多院长很感慨因为中研院一定是所有人大家最羡慕的目标好不好各位你们几乎已经如果要做学术的话中研院绝对是一个大家非常向往的地方我现在要请问的就是当你提到这句话的时候其实你有反映在你们中研院内部的一些升等制度上面吗我们来看一下中研院的这个所谓的升等标准里面来看其实呢第六条里面"},{"start":3693.542,"end":3705.343,"text":"paper的产量虽然说你们认为要研究价值里面的部分要对这个社会的问题的解决等等但是无可厚非的还是在这个paper的产量来说这点院长应该不否认吧"},{"start":3706.311,"end":3725.308,"text":"喔 對不起 這個好像不是這樣解釋的好 那請說我們希望說在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量甚至我期許這個審查的時候不要side這個到底發了多少paper而是要講說這邊paper做了什麼貢獻"},{"start":3726.189,"end":3753.443,"text":"是但是呢这就是我要问的嘛这是所有人都要问的因为我刚刚说你讲这句话深有同感但是所有的学界要说应该展现透过学术研究的成果来影响他人的可能性你如何来界定这个所谓的影响力而且你考核多久才有目前为止看不到我十年后才看得到这个部分你如何来界定因为这个就是中研院所以我们特别调出来看看你所东西有没有办法反映在你们自己院内的生存制度上面"},{"start":3754.083,"end":3769.715,"text":"這考核上面我們是強調有兩個部分一個是客觀的證據就是您所提的說你怎麼樣求證另外一方面我們更要強調是要主觀的判斷身為一個學者特別是做音樂的學者應該有主觀的判斷說我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標所以我們要強調這個方向"},{"start":3775.719,"end":3797.592,"text":"我觉得我还是很希望能够更具体的方法特别是对于社会社会贡献的东西到底如何来界定因为任何东西都要有一个量化的方法从主观的一个判断那我们就要看看你说的你这些的升等的领选的小组里面到底又是如何这才是为什么我们在大学里面大家很难突破这一点你讲的都非常的好可是十几年来"},{"start":3798.152,"end":3824.724,"text":"大学没有办法因为在没有办法看出他这个contribution特别是social这个部分里面的时候我们只好很被迫要用量的方法来做一个处理所以这叫慢慢的推动当然是所以说我说十年你已经解出来但是这个真的要把它落实其实非常困难所以我们期望在这个中原的部分能够引申作则然后特别是我还是要强调为什么要这么讲因为我们政府目前很多的经费我已经不断在讲技术发展的部分是45%应用研究是20%"},{"start":3827.825,"end":3851.293,"text":"真正到基础研究已经降到虽然说这个资源好像是有多但是你知道这个比例来说特别是基础研究相对于过去来说其实政府投资的比例是低的所以在这个原则之下面你怎么会认为大家会认为说我应该就是好好来来这边而且是对社会有贡献我觉得这个部分是政府的做法跟我们所希望达到的"},{"start":3851.573,"end":3873.515,"text":"这个东西是还是有一个落差的好吧希望说政府要加强这个当然是这个样子啊可是要数据就可以告诉你啊那特别是提到这个学术的交流我也刚刚看到你有提到的就是说有一篇在社会人文著作当中你有特别提到台湾跟中国之间的外交的关系但是呢我要请问一下院长啊之前教育部虽然你不归教育管但是教育部来管"},{"start":3874.136,"end":3886.64,"text":"然後呢但是你知道他也嚴格的限制了幾個學校是未來是完全是禁止的完全是禁止的但是呢這幾個禁止的學校裡面其實有社會人文跟這個領域裡面當中我想請問院長我也調出來了我們來看一下這其實有很多是不錯的學校中研院跟中國大陸具有他們所調列的黨政軍的學校的交流狀況其實也有不少院長你認為是跟他們交流裡面你真的就會被統戰嗎"},{"start":3899.72,"end":3916.928,"text":"我們的交流裡面大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作的項目這方面我們具體的交流的方式跟經驗我們沒有說控管很清楚所以這方面至於說"},{"start":3918.108,"end":3941.238,"text":"所以你会follow教育部的脚步吗因为这几个学校里面包括这个哈尔滨工程大学南京航太如果你要做这个领域的话他们其实彼此之间做学术上面的一个交流过去到现在我们也做过很多的学术交流我不觉得我过去会认为我会被他们做什么样的一个影响你认为中研院要follow这个教育部的脚步跟这十个学校过去也跟你们教的学校也完全禁止吗任何部分都禁止吗"},{"start":3942.018,"end":3967.897,"text":"這部分我們中研院做的比較少這個航空或工業不是 我是說你會follow教育部的腳步禁止跟這十個學校來做部分嗎這是教育部中研院呢我們要follow政府的規定只要政府有規定我們只好就這樣做但是你贊同嗎那我們要看裡面的內容裡面內容就是你問過嘛所有的你們去過學術教的部分純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嘛"},{"start":3969.698,"end":3985.572,"text":"这七个学校我们的交流我不觉得很多所以你们虽然不归教育部管你是归总统府来管所以你认为未来在这个学术的交流部分里面你们就尽量往别的地方去而不跟这十个学校来做更进一步的一个流动"},{"start":3986.252,"end":3992.395,"text":"不是這個怎麼做是要看說我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處不會有的不是不會有就是你們中研院每個人在做學術部分我相信都會恪守學術上面的一個原則對我個人來說"},{"start":4002.521,"end":4024.917,"text":"我们都认为在做交流的部分纯粹就是在做不同的就是很单纯那个学术只是因为他们后面有党政军的一个色彩然后呢就影响这个部分我觉得就像你说的还是看交流内涵的一个层面而不是从一个具体的一个什么学校里面就完全是否定这样子的过去的一些研究上面的一个配合跟合作这是我要强调的好不好"},{"start":4026.218,"end":4053.539,"text":"然后呢接下来我还是要特别提到了有关于核能的部分因为你现在是我们和环境变迁的这个小组当中的其中的一员然后呢你也不断的认为说核能当然是有这个优点也有一个缺点然后呢中研院其实也已经特别提到有关于核安的问题你特别提到了你们对于第三plus代跟第四代在这个核分裂的反应磁器的安全度上你们认为其实是应该蛮安全的但是呢我再进这没有错吧"},{"start":4055.187,"end":4083.074,"text":"是否安全因为我们不是这个主管机关我们没有办法到现场去查核我们是就研究的层面我们是说技术上是可以把它变成很安全那是否我们现在的现有的技术上可以变安全所以说你有给政府技术是可行但是都还没有开始做因为我后面再特别去调有关于你们中研院的一个计划你们现在告诉我你们没有这样子的完全没有未来也不讨论未来也不考虑"},{"start":4083.994,"end":4096.279,"text":"因為我們沒有這樣的人才所以沒有辦法這樣做對所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做一些的一個貢獻然後我們特別提到的但是有關於減碳目標我看你們有環境變遷的小組我剛剛看了一下很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做因為"},{"start":4102.202,"end":4114.419,"text":"我们过去来说我问过你你认为2030年有没有办法达到减碳你认为有点困难那赖总统还特别提到又提出一个2035的目标来做一个接轨院长以你目前来看是不是还是很困难"},{"start":4116.043,"end":4132.722,"text":"現在國際情勢瞬息萬變股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉萬變所以我想我們要預測未來減碳會多少是非常困難的但是我們要強調說減碳是長期目標"},{"start":4134.844,"end":4162.925,"text":"你决定长期目标但是以你目前来去看你就有这样的一个机会从2030你说没有可能2035你要看看在美国在巴西他们都提出了这样子的一个方式看到巴西在减碳这是他们的目标美国甚至认为要再减61%到66%以你目前的这个预估因为你毕竟在这个小组当中你也某种程度呼应了童子贤董事长的一个说法所以你认为2035来说的话你觉得机会大不大"},{"start":4163.41,"end":4179.484,"text":"我想我們不是談20 重點不是要短期我們一再強調重點是要長期我們把它減碳因為最新的研究至少這個越來越多的研究資料顯示全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030不是2035也不是2050是2075到"},{"start":4183.507,"end":4189.291,"text":"到二零八五二零九五因為那個時候是真正全人類的最大危機所以嘛我只問你嘛我只問你嘛你當初很明確的說二零三零對台灣來說是有點困難即使再延後五年很顯然這樣一個目標只是我們的目標要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合這點你應該是可以同意吧那要看怎麼做嘛那當然是你講以目前的做法來看的話我個人覺得"},{"start":4207.483,"end":4225.577,"text":"我觉得是有点困难我们光是在讨论这些部分朝野之间其实没有太大的一个讨论空间任何的议题里面只要被卡上一个到底要不要恢复核能核能到底是如何我们都已经没有空间我觉得这是我们在这个部分里面在讨论的时候其实我个人认为颇为"},{"start":4226.798,"end":4244.087,"text":"难过的一个部分因为我们没有太多正向可以合理思考的空间最后我只用30秒的时间我还是要提醒院长一下因为中研院也是有AI推动的办公室里面也成立了几个不同的一个面向我刚刚看到你的简报但是我还是要提醒很重要的一点就是有关于AI"},{"start":4244.707,"end":4248.409,"text":"他目前為止已經從國科會目前可能是速發部要來做這樣的一個處理但是呢很多我們認為在AN基本法裡面應該最需要的就是有關於法律授權還有規範基本的權的評估目前為止我們目前為在這部法裡面是空缺的我只是期許因為我們中研院有非常多的不管是學界法界業界裡面你們都可以跨領域來做這個部分所以呢中研院應該"},{"start":4272,"end":4272.36,"text":"好 谢谢提醒谢谢"},{"start":4301.084,"end":4306.405,"text":"好 謝謝柯之恩委員 院長請回我們接下來請劉書斌委員好 謝謝趙偉 那有請趙俊志院長好 有請廖院長劉委員早"},{"start":4325.936,"end":4342.77,"text":"好 院長好喔對於說您昨天呢提出來的這個中研院的一個這個書面的報告看到非常的詳細事實上先給一些讚許那尤其是在我們現在下一頁中研院的功能在網羅傑出人才社方面呢我們可以看到有很多的部分的"},{"start":4343.47,"end":4363.941,"text":"特點往下一頁在這邊看到的是有對於潛力的優秀人才跟這個國際生還有在國內的部分都有非常多的這樣子的把重點放在所謂的新的研究人員的這樣的培育我覺得這邊是非常肯定的然後還包括在人文社會領域的這樣子的一個體現要人文素養是好的事情"},{"start":4365.402,"end":4374.129,"text":"那這當然是呈現出來是最高的一個學術研究機構他的一個態度這邊呈現出這種嚴謹認真的這個狀況但是我們想要看的是在下一頁這邊我們是根據我們立法院的預算中心他在對中研院的114年的學術"},{"start":4384.957,"end":4409.451,"text":"單位預算的評估報告當中特別是針對延攬傑出學者的任職還有博士後的培育這部分當中發現出現到實際值遠低於目標值的這個狀況特別是在大家看到113年的這部分有個目標值是10但是實際上到位只有一個人這樣的情形那還包括是剛才說的這個博士後的培育當中那過院知不知道原因我們發預算中心發給這樣的一個報告你們知道原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":4414.373,"end":4435.621,"text":"這個延攬資深學人的部分假如我們延攬成功非常成功我們就不需要用到這筆錢因為變成人事費會變成這樣子就不成功就一半成功他來這個part time才會用到這個情況所以過去幾年我們事實上延攬的許多優秀的所長中心主任"},{"start":4436.181,"end":4464.246,"text":"很多在做我們都變成人事費所以就不會用到這筆經費但是我們仍然需要變一些以備萬一所以需要有用到的時候但是我的意思是說原因為什麼會這個狀況是什麼困難度我重點是在這裡這個是以備萬一的時候這不是困難度並不是說我們一定要用到這個等於是真的做很成功我們真正的目標是要把它延攬回來變成我們專職人員就用人事費來聘僱好 那如果這樣的情況之下您的原因是說就是先"},{"start":4465.256,"end":4471.158,"text":"妥善的放著在這邊需求的時候剛好時機配合了就會進來對不對但是我們在下一頁貴院在回覆到我們本院的預算報告的這張張出就是你們把這邊部分等等的都說一說出來了然後就是說還是需要說進行會議支持不過我們在112年的時候整預算的時候醫法院根本沒有"},{"start":4489.284,"end":4495.868,"text":"沒有去審沒有去刪也沒有去動113年這個經費那您的理由如果是說了這個清楚的話呢那還要再繼續增加經費那這個餘額就還存在的情況還要再增加經費事實上也不是這麼合理的沒有 我們沒有增加沒有 我們都是逐年減少我們這個部分已經逐年減少了沒句話 我們是逐年減少了"},{"start":4507.694,"end":4525.631,"text":"沒有沒有 我們現在看到114 你還是在商業你看到還是10個人喔這部分那是目標值 但前數我們是逐年減少因為我們希望說這個你們便利的預算是是都有在增加啦 那今年我覺得要等一下沒有沒有 預算沒有增加"},{"start":4526.712,"end":4548.446,"text":"等一下我們大概看到如果再往下看的話會講到預算的問題不過我想這部分我想要特別在預算的部分就是在於說您特別也來在我就任的時候後來有來做拜訪在這邊就是說今年我會呈現出來今年是一個特別的年是第一次有三檔不過半那你們這部分在預算上面在下一頁其實可以看到說是你們的部分特別在"},{"start":4549.567,"end":4556.717,"text":"國外的旅費啊 國內旅費當中這些都是統刪這一部分 不得留用不過因為蔡英文總統她有提到的是說她在當在野黨主席的時候啦她是有提到說其實3到20都沒有問題那10%的時候是都很用所以這邊就是"},{"start":4564.568,"end":4593.067,"text":"在這期間我可以提升到這是一個特殊的情形大家我們知道國家的科研預算等等是必須要去做的那我這邊也是說特別檢討民眾黨的立場那我們繼續往下看的時候再進一段我想要再下來一個部分就是說你們有在報告當中特別提出來說中研院有辦一個角色就是四個棒接力賽從基礎研究到產業的合作這部分特別是指責到這幾個部分那我在想請問是不是在"},{"start":4594.088,"end":4621.859,"text":"目前的中研院的這個活動當中有沒有真的是已經到達像這個四個階段到基礎研究到大學產研到工研院到給業界使用的部分可不可以舉一個例子來設別在這裡這是我們最新研發出來的高效太陽能光電全部國產的機器國內的實驗室由中研院召集國內的最精英的學者專家昨天出爐的30%"},{"start":4624.56,"end":4644.773,"text":"這個轉換率全部用國產的設備國產的細機那我們除了中文音樂研究之外也召集了至少五間大學的教授也跟業界合作我們接下來也要跟業界成立這個產研聯盟一起來做這方面的技術"},{"start":4645.493,"end":4666.347,"text":"好 那這樣很好 我看到有這樣的一個成就有在發展然後我們繼續往下看 我想要另外談到因為您也是身兼 這個部分我想這個部分我們就先調過去了重點是說因為您也身兼到氣候變遷的對策小組裡面的副召集人那淨零碳排這些部分 有一個部分是在去碳燃氫"},{"start":4667.568,"end":4687.915,"text":"那這邊的部分我們在往下面看的時候就看到是說它有技術性的部分這部分也就是中研院可能在進行的那第二個部分可能我想要談到的我從人文社會出發在講的是說也有部分就是在所謂碳費的這一些部分它必須要去支持還有另外一部分是在於說在下面兩頁的時候可以看到它有涉及到的是"},{"start":4688.635,"end":4696.321,"text":"有一個在下一頁可以看到的是說呢他有說建立公民社會組織參與這個社會溝通平台那請問一下中研院有沒有對說說因為人們還是支持這些碳費碳費或碳稅這些的支持還有說公民的這個參與平台請問在人文社會處這一部分社會組這邊有沒有針對這個部分有一些的有些相關的研究"},{"start":4710.433,"end":4729.733,"text":"有 我們在這個淨零計畫當中其中有一支是委託社會所林宗鴻研究員做一些社會溝通 社會調查他對各種淨零政策的對民眾的接受度 民眾的意向等等做了相當深入的研究所以這邊是有的"},{"start":4730.595,"end":4733.456,"text":"那會發生什麼效果會有一個時程表就是推促進我們的尤其是你在當副召集人是不是可以提出來說讓我們政府在這邊在碳稅上面符合國際的這個標準等等的這些部分有沒有一個行動的計畫等等碳稅至於碳稅碳費的部分目前好像據我了解還沒有做到這一個部分因為"},{"start":4752.423,"end":4761.954,"text":"那個跟一般民眾稍微一點距離比較跟產業界比較接近所以這部分未來我們會納入但是目前好像還沒有到這個地步"},{"start":4762.911,"end":4788.463,"text":"那我就希望您在作為對策小組的副召集的時候能夠推出這些部分因為2050或是說今年的2026的時候明年2026的時候歐盟的部分這個CBAN就要進行了那下面有個問題就是說您在能源的態度上面因為您在過去的發表聯絡在去年到今年往下的狀況"},{"start":4789.944,"end":4817.742,"text":"特別有呈現出來的說您在對第三代第四代核能等等甚至說您因為說淨零碳排的需求是很重要往下點點點因為我們有好幾篇文章這邊講說都是您曾經考到德國的部分他要不要核能的部分在共識之後也可以得到一些讓核廢料也處理的情況可以讓台灣有更好的安全選擇來去進行好 那這個情況下我想要問的是您再往下一頁"},{"start":4819.023,"end":4843.235,"text":"那您對於這個召集人對能源選項的立場為何那你對台灣有本錢放棄核能嗎我想這個一個政策一個能源政策要推動有四個面向第一個是科技的面向那我們是緊究科技面向來探討說核能方面科技面向是可以做的那剩下來看是不是合經濟效益這部分恐怕要經濟部或相關單位來判斷"},{"start":4846.457,"end":4873.448,"text":"接下來要政治方面是不是可行社會可不可以接受這就完全不是中央醫院可以智慧的地方所以我們是緊就這個科技方面提出我們的意見然後希望社會能夠接下來進行看說社會的接受度那您的立場呢我們在立場是認為說在科技方面我們儘量利用科技解決社會的疑慮利用科技解決政治上的困難"},{"start":4874.008,"end":4884.515,"text":"利用科技降低所以在科技沒有問題的情況之下核能是一個好的選項是嗎是的我們要引進新的科技把現在即使是認為我們認為說現在的我們既有的核能設備有點老舊即使我們將來假如經過檢查還需要改善我們應該引進新的科技幫他改善"},{"start":4898.024,"end":4907.514,"text":"好那往下一部分可是我們的環境基本法當中有提到往下往下核能基本法的環境基本法這邊有提到是說我們要訂定這個達成非核家園的目標氣候變遷因應法當中有提到說要逐步落實非核家園願景那您的看法這邊的話是不是跟剛才的態度一樣"},{"start":4916.463,"end":4932.748,"text":"就已經不是這個科技的面向是我剛才講的是政治跟社會的面向這個就不是中央醫院的專業我們期待說相關單位包括這個全社會人士能夠大家一起努力看凝聚共識怎麼樣再往前走"},{"start":4933.291,"end":4943.316,"text":"好 謝謝廖院長您在整個在能源政策上面提出中研院作為一個最高的學術單位的時候所做的立場好 謝謝廖院長 還有各位謝謝謝謝劉淑冰委員還有院長請回好 我們接下來請葛如君召委"},{"start":4960.739,"end":4964.211,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請莊園院院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":4968.325,"end":4995.57,"text":"各位元豪院長好我想在這個會期開始您謝謝有來我們的辦公室來進行拜會那有討論到這次的預算刪減其實我也提到網路上有非常多的抹黑 造謠 假訊息那我們也看到有中研院發信給各個研究員那導致有非常多研究員擔心自己的計劃受影響甚至還有人會擔心失去工作那本席當時也有表示"},{"start":4995.95,"end":5022.087,"text":"因為我們的這個會談內容也都是完全透明的都有逐字稿都有上網那我也表示就是這樣的做法其實有可能會造成恐慌我們希望中央醫院該做的應該是積極面對並且遇到這個問題我們一起來協助同仁來解決並且我們一起來確保未來不會有這樣的一個狀況來發生所以本席想要請教首先第一點這個所謂的預算假設有人受到影響你們現在有一個單一窗口讓大家來回報嗎"},{"start":5026.29,"end":5043.406,"text":"有 我們有這個發信給同仁假如有這個治安難行的部分像學術處 像副院長都可以回報各種不同的狀況 我們都盡力調配這段我們已經盡量在做了其實當時我也表示啦"},{"start":5043.786,"end":5064.975,"text":"就是老實說中央議員的角色應該是要發信請同仁不要擔心而不是說我們遇到了問題你們如果沒問題的不用來找我有問題的個別來找我這會變成什麼解決問題的部分大家都看不到可是恐慌卻蔓延在全院沒有關係我是希望要有一個單一窗口"},{"start":5065.595,"end":5091.583,"text":"不需要各自去找 那找誰 找的效果也不一樣你們有辦法做好統計嗎有哪些人受到影響 有沒有單一窗口回答我 有沒有單一窗口 協助同仁學術處處長陳建璋好 所以大家就是找學術處處長所以這個信件裡面都有提到嗎有 找誰找我啊對 就是找我 我有發信給我們今年有拿到院內的計畫的這些同仁所以您是單一窗口對 他們會找我"},{"start":5094.363,"end":5116.151,"text":"您有沒有公告這個受影響的話單一窗口是您我們這邊的表達是第一我們還是希望中研院應該是要來讓同仁知道說不會有問題中研院會來協助解決解決的單一窗口在這裡這樣的做法可以嗎"},{"start":5117.811,"end":5140.579,"text":"有沒有問題事實上我們院裡面也不會知道因為我們被凍了十二十一年多所以我們儘量我們希望儘量讓同仁不要擔心但你的信送出去是說你們都受到影響沒有關係我們現在就直接來看問題嘛您剛剛提到凍結的案既然這麼重要請問中研院有沒有送解凍報告過來"},{"start":5141.479,"end":5169.052,"text":"好 我們正在進行這個解凍的因為我們要根據立法院決議我們要能夠送出這個預算執行情形不好意思我們這三個單位預算執行情形形我們仍然在進行當中我們院會的時候已經很早就已經決議了總統也已經公告了到現在還在處理零份事實上不只中研院所有的教安委員會的部會一份解凍報告都沒有送進來"},{"start":5169.972,"end":5192.122,"text":"那你們呢 事實上你們的投影片時間裡面送事實上你們也提到嘛就是凍結11億其實只要提出專案報告我們同意就可以解凍我相信我們的林錦昭委也一定會來全力協助因為我們的專業同仁我們都希望不要受到影響我們學術研究很重要嘛那你們如果不提出來我們怎麼有辦法解凍呢我們會提出來"},{"start":5192.722,"end":5213.546,"text":"那什麼時候會提出 很好我們會依規定提出來依規定時間提出來規定是誰規定 您是院長啊所以是誰規定立法院規定的時間提出來欸對不起我們沒有說什麼時候規定送出來喔這一點不好意思喔 院長你講清楚喔這個球不在我們這裡喔所以是林一錦 張偉有跟您規定說是什麼時候要送出來嗎沒有 張偉搖頭啊我們沒有任何規定說什麼時候"},{"start":5221.072,"end":5248.142,"text":"立法院決議是要我們做預算執行情形的報告我們要把預算執行情形再整清楚之後才能夠抓到報告因為總共有十多億我們不能做十頁報告一頁解凍一億所以我們要做詳盡的報告我們有33個所中心就需要一點時間避免出錯所以院長您可不可以收回您剛剛的說法我們沒有規定您什麼時候才能送進來喔"},{"start":5249.302,"end":5273.412,"text":"沒有規定的話我們就要立法院的慣例處理慣例就是ASAPAs soon as possible這是考驗大家的這個團結力量嘛是沒錯那我們也是所以我問您什麼時候可以準備好啊您作為院長你沒有規劃一個時間同仁怎麼來依循呢我們現在預計我們快完成了預計在幾個禮拜之內我們就可以送幾個禮拜之內好幾個禮拜"},{"start":5277.053,"end":5297.265,"text":"兩個禮拜 二十個禮拜 三十個禮拜不會是兩三個禮拜一兩個禮拜到兩三個禮拜就好謝謝 謝謝院長同時喔 其實我也理解啦因為院會的金額真的比較高11億嘛 我們大家都有共識接下來我們的這個我們作為專案報告我們全力來協助但是委員會凍結1250萬只要書面報告就可以解凍為什麼到現在也不交報告"},{"start":5302.228,"end":5322.054,"text":"我們希望說兩個合在一起這一點部分我們確實是有討論過你發信的時候就發到全體同仁然後呢你每一個人你都來說影響你解凍的時候能解的趕快解啊你為什麼突然你講的好像很緊張結果呢你處理的時候能先處理的為什麼不先處理呢那個可以處理部分的金額事實上非常少"},{"start":5326.276,"end":5350.431,"text":"1250萬所以1250萬非常少我們請所有中央醫院的研究同仁都理解了我們院長的標準就是1250萬非常少可以先不送我們自然難行的部分是一些沒辦法留用的部分那其他的我們照委員講的時候我們已經盡量在處理我是希望您先送就能送因為這個東西到委員會報告不用專案報告好不好"},{"start":5351.932,"end":5356.615,"text":"那太好了委員講不用專案報告我說的是委員會的1250萬我們下禮拜就送不用專案報告委員會的1250萬沒問題我們交報告就可以啊張委員理解嘛我們這個本來就書宴報告就可以啊"},{"start":5367.421,"end":5391.413,"text":"所以請跟同仁了解一下好不好這個是本來就是不用專案報告的這部分是沒有問題但是跟委員報告說我們現在最難最自然難行的就是一些被被刪被動的部分又不能留用那這是為什麼大家會覺得說沒辦法沒辦法動院長您要有動作否則大家會懷疑是不是有人不送現在呢連媒體都在報導了"},{"start":5392.133,"end":5412.386,"text":"行政院是不是在擋解凍報告但是你們是對總統府報告所以你們應該沒有這個壓力所以不要自己給自己壓力黨派委員會凍結的只需要提交書面報告即可解凍同仁如果有告訴你要專案報告才可以解凍那就是有問題你要調查一下所以委員會的李克松進來好不好這個我們同意"},{"start":5416.309,"end":5431.464,"text":"好接著我想我來詢問一下幾個點現在中研院的院內的同仁要做AI的研究能不能下載Deep-Seek R1的模型到自己的電腦上面安全的運行可不可以"},{"start":5433.282,"end":5461.092,"text":"委員好我是資訊服務處處長陳寗志按照目前規定以不能下載為原則如果真的要下載的話他必須要做好資安管控措施對不起我剛剛講的不是下載APP喔不是下載應用喔是下載這個模型喔不行你確定嗎確定現在所有的學者都說下載模型單機運行是沒有問題的喔您確定我們現在的對談是一致的喔是的"},{"start":5461.932,"end":5472.049,"text":"下載模型研究不行需要做資安控管需要報備所以模型運行在自己的電腦上是有資安問題的我們現在列入紀錄喔這個是政府的規定"},{"start":5475.32,"end":5501.696,"text":"所有中國的軟體硬體我請您研究一下所有的規定我們的理解就是不能下載APP不能下載應用服務同時去註冊它的服務可能是有資安的疑慮的可能會有各自的問題模型本身有學術的意義所以請您稍微幫同仁了解一下第二點請問同仁可不可以研讀DeepSeek的開放論文"},{"start":5502.897,"end":5520.37,"text":"論文當然是可以的論文可以嗎所以我想其實相關的這種開放的心態對AI發展非常重要如果沒有問題的就應該讓同仁放手去研究他山之石可以攻錯不管是誰的我們都要好好來瞭解同時我想未來AI的發展應該還會前進我想請教院長您覺得AI的發展結束了嗎還是會繼續發展下去"},{"start":5526.636,"end":5545.499,"text":"當然會繼續發展下去所以我想發展跟監管跟風險都是要做平衡的那同時我也想衛生專業院院長在AI的發展方面有沒有跟其他部會來做合作跟速發部有沒有合作跟國科會有沒有合作跟國防中心的算力有沒有合作"},{"start":5546.259,"end":5568.364,"text":"當然有 當然有很多的interaction譬如說我們的算力主要是由國會的國網中心來support那我們現在也希望說組成全國的很多AI的專家一起來發展AI 而不是大家分散的是啊 我想AI是一個競賽我們希望我們大家不要做自幹"},{"start":5569.144,"end":5594.006,"text":"所以我們特別也覺得這個灌籃高手的合作精神很重要我們也一起來打贏這場AI的競賽我們中央醫院跟各部會一起最後最後一個問題我想沒有電就沒有AI啦面對全球減碳的浪潮您提出了近零五支箭那請教一下院長這五支箭你有沒有發現缺了哪一支箭啊"},{"start":5595.792,"end":5599.377,"text":"這五支箭的部分是我們認為說是社會上討論比較少的我們提出來讓大家討論不是說我們要做社會上已經在討論已經在做的我們就不會放在五支箭裡面是這個意思那您覺得核能現在社會上有在做嗎有在討論"},{"start":5612.412,"end":5638.488,"text":"那有在討論這些不需要我們來提醒說社會需要討論這件事情所以禁令五支箭不是要做的只是大家沒在講的你確定這是這個說法嗎不是不是是我們能夠做的核能現在中文院沒有這樣的人才也沒有這樣的設備我們沒有辦法做核能的研究五支箭每樣我們都有經費有人員有團隊集合全國力量在大力推行當中即使做核能中文院沒有辦法來做核能的研究"},{"start":5641.988,"end":5669.307,"text":"好 沒關係 我們都列入紀錄了我想我們問了全世界最優秀的AI包含Solnet 包含CHAIR GPT 4.5包含Gorak 3我們都問 如果作為國家最高的研究機關我們要做近零五支箭 五個項目我們應該要做什麼 很抱歉每一個AI都把核能 新核能的科技列進去結果您在這裡告訴我們中央醫院沒有能力來做這一塊的研究"},{"start":5670.427,"end":5689.192,"text":"我想這個人民包含我們全世界所有的國家關注研發的關注研究的都會非常失望我希望中研院要秉持著中立跟學術研究的良心不要有意識形態跟政治性我最後一個問題不好意思這個主席已經站起來了我們看到有一位無姓研究員到了民進黨中常會來進行報告"},{"start":5699.774,"end":5718.845,"text":"那提出了這個脫北入中的消息請問這個報告 院長我們可以去哪裡下載我不知道我不知道這件事情這是個別研究員 哪一位無線研究員這邊有很多新聞我不好意思講名字啊在座同仁有沒有知道"},{"start":5719.827,"end":5736.934,"text":"有一位吳姓社會所的研究員到中 有舉手啦 有知道沒有關係 這件事情我們會關於這個學術研究的中立性 獨立性我們希望院長能不能相關訊息了解一下那一些訊息回應到我們辦公室來可以嗎好"},{"start":5738.174,"end":5762.043,"text":"我們個別研究員的言論我們非常尊重不管任何言論我們希望中研院是一個大家能夠秉持學術自由言論自由的方向來做但是他是以中研院研究員的身份出現在那裡而且有了一個單方面的結論所以我相信院長應該要能夠知道那當然我理解學術研究是自由的我們一起來捍衛謝謝"},{"start":5765.592,"end":5772.44,"text":"好 謝謝葛如君召委 院長請回我們接下來請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席 請院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":5785.928,"end":5800.662,"text":"政委員好院長早安這邊我想先請教院長本席發現有立委是運用我們中研院的報告來佐證乾式儲存廠還有很多空間根本不存在核廢料的後續處置的問題但是事實是這樣嗎請專家來回答"},{"start":5809.047,"end":5823.544,"text":"中研院永續科學中心副執行秘書龍士郡中研院並沒有研究核能相關的人才所以基本上我們都是取用政府公開資料來做彙整這是一個彙整報告"},{"start":5826.067,"end":5843.338,"text":"我想請教一下院長跟您確認以您的專業您回答我按照我們標準的安全的核廢料處理高階核廢料的後續處理是不是就是先放在幹室儲存場然後再移到中期的佔存場最後移到最終處置的這個設施是不是這樣"},{"start":5846.108,"end":5848.511,"text":"理論上是先在場內的一個冷卻池之後的話才會移到場內的乾式儲存槽然後的話如果我們社會有共識能夠找到一個最終儲存場的話最終儲置場然後的話要移存到最終儲置場"},{"start":5863.186,"end":5885.043,"text":"我們按照這個標準的安全的核廢的路徑圖來講我們從燃料池出來之後會到乾式儲存的儲放然後到中期的暫時儲放之後我們會放到最終處置就是最終的處置設施嘛是標準的處理程序是這樣子嗎是那麼我想請教這個核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎"},{"start":5887.174,"end":5893.838,"text":"理論上最好最後還是要有一個最終處置場那你們的這一份報告你們的這一份報告上面有提到說核廢料可以一直只放在乾式儲存場就好不用後續處理嗎你上面有寫嗎這邊的話我們都沒有寫我們這邊的話都是取用台電以及這個核安會已經核定的報告所以這是你們的一個數據的統計這不是我們的統計這其實我們是引用別人的資料"},{"start":5914.591,"end":5918.472,"text":"引用別人的資料來做你們的報告嗎現在其實做其實核廢料的處理剛剛我們有討論過了就是這個錄定就是說最後是還要包含就是中期的暫時儲存跟最終的這個處置嘛那其實連美國到現在都還沒有找到最終處置的場址"},{"start":5933.018,"end":5956.789,"text":"那中期的暫存跟最終的處理的選址才是我們現在不能再繼續使用可能一個很大的關鍵那我也希望就借這個機會讓你們中研院把話說清楚不要在這種情況之下混淆視天讓民眾誤解其實民眾是要誤以為說我們有很多的這個空間可以繼續來儲存這些核廢料而且不用再繼續處理我們可以繼續發展核能繼續產生核廢料是這樣嗎"},{"start":5962.572,"end":5982.462,"text":"跟委員報告台電以及經過和安會所核定的台電報告中提到的是乾式儲存槽如果按照目前的規劃的話他確實可能還有一些儲存的空間那最大的儲存的年限的話大概是50年但是在那個之後還是需要最終儲置場那很遺憾的是和安會已經試圖要去"},{"start":5987.504,"end":6013.33,"text":"這個尋找這個最終儲置場很多年了但是因為社會沒有共識所以很沒有辦法選擇到這個最終儲置場好 院長您要說明我們這個報告寫得很清楚就是蓋好後才可以提供儲存換句話說有一些蓋了大部分都還沒有蓋好是這樣子的意思重點是在於乾式儲存它不是最終儲值對 乾式儲存它只是一個暫時的"},{"start":6014.79,"end":6027.44,"text":"我們後續要處理的部分才是我們現在最棘手的對好那你們也做這樣的澄清了就是我們的核廢料不能不是只是一直放在乾式儲存場就可以不是永久我們最終的這個最終處置的部分沒有解決"},{"start":6030.543,"end":6049.375,"text":"所以現在這樣是不足以解決就是我們目前核廢掉的問題的好 謝謝那再來我想請教我們核三廠的二號機將在五月十七就除役那接下來二零五零的近年排放的進度及相關科技的這些研發的進度也是大家都一直非常關心的議題"},{"start":6050.316,"end":6059.539,"text":"那中研院你們這個五大技能科技當中呢去碳燃氫已經在2023年在興達電廠啟動示範機組我想請教一下目前的進度怎麼樣我們現在在規模放大當中跟一些國內廠商合作希望把規模放大到能夠5MW的地步預計在2026年明年在興達電廠"},{"start":6077.586,"end":6097.887,"text":"能夠測試我們的規模放大的效果明年會測試規模放大那你們什麼時候預計投入商轉投入商轉要看規模放大的成果怎麼樣就是現在初期的測試是成效是很好的但是還沒有規模放大那到明年我們會規模放大再來測試"},{"start":6099.088,"end":6121.137,"text":"對 只要測試成功 那我們當然接下來商轉的可能性就非常高假如測試沒有很成功 我們還可以要多努力 還可以往後再推幾年所以要明年規模放大測試之後才會知道說未來什麼時候投入商轉是的那有沒有預期說我們首次投入商轉可以帶來多少發電量這個有沒有一個規劃"},{"start":6122.978,"end":6144.072,"text":"這個我想這個事情都是要逐步的這個屈膽然青的技術可貴的地方就是它不是一次全有或全無它可以逐步增加它的含氫量也是可以逐步增加所以它可以是這個技術發展的狀況可以是這個成本的效果可以簡單的需要可以逐步增加"},{"start":6144.212,"end":6172.505,"text":"所以院長的意思是說現在目前是沒有辦法評估要等明年這個擴大規模的測試之後才能夠知道喔那我這邊想請教院長喔我們在精靈科技中的地熱海洋能以及生殖碳會目前好像比較沒有突破性的進展院長是不是要說明一下這三項計畫目前你們執行的情況這個在地熱方面我們在宜蘭園山已經跟中油合作專探國內首座的深層地熱的研究井到"},{"start":6174.286,"end":6194.658,"text":"這個禮拜為止已經鑽到1500公尺已經鑽1500公尺了這是已經是相當大的突破那我們預計年底應該可以鑽到4500公尺今年年底可以到3000公尺所以這方面持續在進行當中"},{"start":6196.259,"end":6220.038,"text":"那光電的部分我們剛才也提到說光電的部分我們最近有相當好的進展就是在高效光剛才您有展示過有這樣的成效這個方面是非常好的那在海洋能方面我們也開始測試在我們的海洋流發電機在高雄長裡面已經下水測試做浮力測試所以這個也持續都有進行當中"},{"start":6221.263,"end":6243.14,"text":"那關於生殖炭會這個部分生殖炭會部分我們跟農委會的敘事所在合作在培養在篩選下一世代的狼尾草作為牧草它的耐旱耐冷它的肥料的效應等等這個方面也有相當好的進展"},{"start":6243.94,"end":6256.104,"text":"所以其實都持續是有進度的對 但是每一個技術它對時程都不一樣譬如說生殖蛋會跟海洋人它可能時間會比較久一點院長你這邊你會後你把相關的這些資訊你一份資料給我辦公室"},{"start":6260.405,"end":6265.927,"text":"我是希望說中研院這邊要積極的辦理關於我們近林的這些相關科技的繼續的研發而且我們也要隨時關注我們整個世界的趨勢來盡快達成我們2050近林探訪這個目標那我這邊快速的先問一下好了就是我們中研院的這個預算被刪減的問題呢其實我們都知道說學術交流非常的重要"},{"start":6285.494,"end":6304.346,"text":"對於我們的這個國外旅費以及出國教育訓練費用招統15%這個部分呢想必也會影響到我們一些學術交流的活動讓我們一些優秀的學術研究人員沒有辦法順利的進行相關的學術交流及訓練我想知道的是我們中研院這邊因應的辦法是什麼"},{"start":6306.155,"end":6327.504,"text":"我們在可能的範圍裡面我們儘量由這個院方來調度可用的經費所以確實這個產生了相當大的問題所以我們只能在同一工作計畫向下能夠留用但是在不同工作計畫下就不能留用所以我們有一點空間但空間不是很大"},{"start":6328.544,"end":6341.414,"text":"特別是因為金額這個很多大家都需要都同樣有同樣狀況所以跟別人借錢也沒那麼容易所以是這樣的狀況那在這狀況之下每一個計劃執行的研究員就"},{"start":6343.696,"end":6355.669,"text":"會比較沒有企圖心做一些比較前瞻性或者是未來性的研究我想有一些研究員他們本來有一些計畫去執行的就會有點挫折了"},{"start":6358.152,"end":6375.193,"text":"你們被刪的這個經費相當高國外旅費就有兩千多萬那出國教育訓練費用有五百多萬所以其實這樣子合縱起來你們其實合計起來你們被刪的費用這麼高我覺得是會影響到所以我希望說你們院長院長這邊跟我們中院院長盡量想辦法協助我們相關的人員"},{"start":6375.914,"end":6396.625,"text":"但是我真的還是要強調因為其實中研院我們帶領我們國科技前進而且我們前的那個之前我們之前在開會的時候也問過國科會主委他說台灣沒有諾貝爾得主這覺得很丟臉所以我希望說中研院這邊跟我們其他的科研單位還是要持續努力雖然現在遇到這樣子的狀況但希望說"},{"start":6397.185,"end":6405.429,"text":"我們跟相關的部會包括教育部啊我們相關的高等教育的相關改革可以持續努力我們盡快產生諾貝爾獎的得主好嗎好謝謝謝謝院長謝謝好謝謝謝謝陳秀寶委員院長請回我們接下來請武力華委員"},{"start":6424.7,"end":6450.519,"text":"謝謝主席 有請院長好 有請廖院長好 吳委員早院長早在園民會 您應該很清楚有一個建構原住民族教育文化知識體系的中長城計畫110到114那剛好呢 今年就是一個階段的結束我在3月17號的時候我有就"},{"start":6451.44,"end":6471.43,"text":"原民會這個原住民族知識體系的計畫去問國科會參與的情形那國科會主委是表示這個沒有進行但是我有在中研院的夜報我有看到說你們有持續的參與這個計畫"},{"start":6473.931,"end":6497.746,"text":"那我在這裡就是要肯定為什麼因為我有看到在這個當中有去補助我們原住民學者的一個研究也有去補助做部落的訪調甚至是補助這些人類學系相關學系他們的一個補助計畫那我就要回頭說其實我在2020年的時候我剛進來立法院"},{"start":6500.768,"end":6516.439,"text":"我在教育委員會也曾經質詢過院長您我當時就是希望說中研院能夠多做一點多做一點什麼呢就是說走出學術機構的庫房然後能夠返回部落那我很高興因為我看到"},{"start":6517.539,"end":6536.668,"text":"這些年我們的經費呢有逐年的增加那114年民主所的預算是來到7745萬那我也有提到多做一點就是關於出版專書著作在這邊我也看到台時所的預算今年是編列6360萬都有一個大幅度的成長"},{"start":6541.39,"end":6561.384,"text":"那特別是我看了我們復健當中夜報所提供的這一些講注的名單名冊我也覺得說著實的非常的豐富一年比一年豐富好那我現在要說的是其實我很高興的我這幾年看到有盧凱學"},{"start":6562.625,"end":6588.986,"text":"排灣學 塞夏學 卑南學 阿美族學我至少看到這五個族群都有在辦什麼什麼學的一個研討會而且我要特別就是來肯定中研院裡面很多發表的都是有拿到中研院的經費補助案那我現在是要進一步的來請我們院長中研院來幫個忙就是"},{"start":6591.428,"end":6613.835,"text":"我其實在國科會過去幾次一直到現在我都有不斷的要求有沒有可能把原住民族的研究把它變成一個學門我知道現在能量還不足但是我希望是不是至少讓它成為一個次領域那上次我也有去問國科會因為那個是我五年前問的"},{"start":6614.835,"end":6630.505,"text":"後來發現 哇 不了了之本來有答應要把它變成次領域可是後來還是變成專案補助所以我來到這裡就是也要請我們中研院幫個忙我們的目標都是希望哪一天成為真正的學門"},{"start":6632.288,"end":6655.869,"text":"那在這個部分我希望中研院要有角色那我舉個例子像你們中研院有一個數位典藏我們可以看到就是開放博物館這裡面呢提到相關的數位展覽有13件相關的數位展品有8000件相關的數位專書一就一本"},{"start":6657.151,"end":6679.489,"text":"那這個專書你們的重心又是放在1960到1980年的研究院長我想說的是我希望能夠看到有原住民的學者那我也希望不要只有他族的觀點的專書是不是可以有我族的觀點"},{"start":6681.311,"end":6705.767,"text":"所以在這個部分院長您應該很清楚我在這個部分就是特別希望中研院應該可以有角色那在這裡呢我要特別的提醒就是從過去我們習慣有他者的觀點那現在呢透過你們這幾年這樣的一個補助越來越多的原住民學者越來越多有我族觀點的這一些論文出來"},{"start":6708.308,"end":6718.541,"text":"那我希望未來他有機會成為一個學門啊要不然我現在我也不好意思問啊請問中研院有沒有原住民的院士我不好意思問嘛因為我知道不可能嘛"},{"start":6721.843,"end":6737.141,"text":"但是我希望未來有啊那你都還沒有辦法成為學門的時候我如何哪一天可以看到中研院能夠有原住民的一個院士對不對所以呢在這個地方成為一個學門那我就是一個簡單的訴求啦"},{"start":6739.688,"end":6760.574,"text":"這方面中研院已經在做了對 我現在就是一個訴求這一些什麼學什麼學的他們在辦研討會的時候我希望中研院要有角色最好能夠進去合作然後第二個就是把它整理成專書 從書出版讓我們有一本一本每一年不一樣的排灣族學的從書研究"},{"start":6762.594,"end":6785.04,"text":"盧凱族的重塑研究 泰雅族的重塑研究我希望現在開始我們往這個方向走那針對原住民學 我也希望中研院跟學者能夠緊密的合作不要忘記 不要讓這件事停滯不前 要往前走等到哪一天我們回頭來質詢的時候我們希望看到它是被重視的 它是被改善的來 請"},{"start":6786.64,"end":6813.4,"text":"吳委員好我是那個民主所的所長周玉慧那我今年剛上任四月剛上任我很高興能夠在這裡跟您澄清一件事情就是我們今年會有兩本就是一本是關於工作的就是我們終於要把它出書了那另外一本呢就是剛剛您有提到的就是我們的原住民的培訓的那個計畫我們也會再出一本第二本專書所以呢我們就是在朝著這方面努力那至於您說的我們能夠朝重出出版"},{"start":6815.481,"end":6838.273,"text":"我們也會朝這方面努力的 謝謝好 謝謝所長那在這裡就是提出這樣的一個因為中研院是我們最高的一個學術單位機構那研究機構所以我很希望中研院不要忘記在這個原住民成為學門這一件的路上"},{"start":6839.013,"end":6865.137,"text":"中研院可以幫助我們扮演一個很好的角色那最重要的就是從過去他者觀點的這些研究一百多年來幾十年來都沒有關係到現在開始這幾年我們越來越多原住民我族觀點的一個研究那中研院的學者在這個當中怎麼樣把過去的他者跟現在的這樣的一個怎麼樣去透過研究方法"},{"start":6865.717,"end":6881.962,"text":"透過這樣的一個方法學能夠把它整合出一個更新更完整的東西更前進的東西我想這個是中研院一個責無旁貸的一個責任那希望我們一起來努力院長好謝謝好謝謝那謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員院長請回"},{"start":6889.366,"end":6895.829,"text":"我們接下來請郭育晴委員那在郭育晴委員質詢完之後 我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請院長好 有請廖院長好 郭委員早廖院長早安"},{"start":6911.932,"end":6937.76,"text":"今天我們看到美國大家在關心的關稅大刀現在看似只砍向中國提高到125%台灣目前還有一個觀察的90天為什麼會特別提到這個部分因為我想企業如果沒有有效的來應對所謂的關稅的壁壘它還是有可能會削弱我們在科技產業當中的一些地位"},{"start":6938.46,"end":6957.818,"text":"那其實在我們的科技產業當中其實最重要的還是人才那科研人才的流用或者是它有可能會流失這個部分其實是我們非常關切的問題那剛剛其實早上我也聽到其他的藍營的委員也在提到這個部分但是現在我們面對我們的預算"},{"start":6960.38,"end":6980.439,"text":"被删被动那其实有很多都是跟人才交流这个国际交流上有一些很大的一个状况相关那我想呢如果没有有效的留住科技人才那除了会影响到这个国际的企业那另外呢还有我们的这个科研的机构"},{"start":6981.079,"end":7003.947,"text":"相對來講整體的一個發展也會產生一些所謂的這個負面的影響那根據這個美國的智庫他們有查過就是超過3500名的半導體的專業人員他們希望能夠藉由挖角台灣或者是韓國的一些所謂的工程師來增強自己本身在這個部分的一個強度"},{"start":7005.988,"end":7031.07,"text":"那當然我們也看到了就是根據檢調的調查這個11家的中國相關的企業涉嫌要挖角台灣的高科技人才那這個涉及的人數呢是超過50名的IC設計以及半導體領域的一個研發人才那我想在這邊請教一下這個院長如何來評估這個部分對台灣科技研發體系的一個長期的影響"},{"start":7031.83,"end":7049.031,"text":"我想在國際上人才競爭是非常劇烈我們在人才競爭的同時我們需要讓全世界知道台灣是一個重視科技發展重視科技研究人才的地方"},{"start":7050.372,"end":7064.697,"text":"所以從這角度出發我們希望未來在審議預算的時候特別要考量學研單位包括大學包括中研院包括所有的研究機構預算的時候要考量"},{"start":7065.177,"end":7088.886,"text":"科研的特殊性及它的重要性它的長遠性來做一個通盤的考量那我們怎麼樣來面對就是中國要挖角或者是美國想要這個人才的一個爭奪所以我們一方面要極力留住另外一方面我們要大力改善我們國內的科研環境那改善國內科研環境一定要充分投資"},{"start":7090.667,"end":7111.003,"text":"大家都知道說現在全世界在拼科技拼科技一定要投資投資一定要從基礎開始從大學從研究機構開始大學中研院其他的法人的研究單位都扮演不同的角色我們在這方面一定要大力支持"},{"start":7111.423,"end":7125.619,"text":"我想這個中研院長年你們都在推動所謂的博士後研究短期的技修或者是國際交流等等的一些計畫那台灣的這個科研人才走出去其實是中研院扮演的非常重要的一個平台"},{"start":7126.28,"end":7145.567,"text":"那但是呢現在我們看到的就是國民黨跟民眾黨他們在預算的凍結跟刪除那這個通山的案子大概通山的部分是3億941萬7千元3億喔那另外呢在大院表決凍結全院的業務費用是高達30%那相對來講就是11億4963萬多"},{"start":7151.429,"end":7168.818,"text":"那這個部分其實嚴重的會影響到我們的國際人才的鍛煉那我想這也是我們非常非常擔心的部分那更可能會造成所謂的這個青年的科研人才他們失去了所謂的關鍵的訓練那這個部分我們中研院怎麼看"},{"start":7170.068,"end":7195.696,"text":"這部分當然是對研究人員心理層面影響是不言可喻大家期待說台灣要能夠重視科研重視特別是科研的環境而不是只有表面上的數字讓科研人才在這邊覺得是受歡迎的讓他做研究能夠有足夠的經費"},{"start":7196.996,"end":7213.841,"text":"他想出國參訪或是甚至國內的交流也都需要有一些經費來支持那這方面假如碰到卡關狀況難免會對研究人員造成一些心理上的一個挫折感"},{"start":7214.481,"end":7224.71,"text":"雖然我們院方也極力來調適這方面來調度可用的經費在合法合理的範圍內我們院方已經調度經費來因應現在這樣子的狀況但是這個畢竟有限"},{"start":7230.134,"end":7238.92,"text":"我們來看一下因為這個畫面當中看到這是一位這個中研院應該是研究員他說中研院的這個經費被刪減通知正式已經發下來了那今年大家所有的研究計畫只能保守計畫勒緊褲帶了那規劃要到這個日本進行20年的長期研究在這樣子的一個氣氛之下只能終止了那這些呢就是藍白認為刪減經費對國家不會有影響的人他希望大家要醒醒啊"},{"start":7258.754,"end":7278.588,"text":"這個是一位中研院的研究名字我們就不透露也不透露他在哪一個這個部門去做這個研究但是他已經確定他是這麼寫的那我想大家應該都知道這個預算凍結很多人說這個凍結是不是我要解凍放在這個微波爐裡面逼一聲就好了"},{"start":7279.108,"end":7304.044,"text":"其實解凍的程序大概經過三個月左右的時間那我們的總預算是在3月21號正式公佈這總預算的部分是3月底才公佈的現在要解凍有這麼簡單嗎這個是其實真的要跟大家講一下從預算的解凍我們的程序大概是怎麼樣因為要到程序委員會去排案再交付委員會"},{"start":7304.884,"end":7323.312,"text":"到了委員會相關被凍結預算的部會機關你們還要交出口頭報告或者是書面報告而且要委員該委員會的同意大家討論過後同意之後才能夠來進行大到大院再交付大院"},{"start":7323.652,"end":7338.376,"text":"然後才能進行解凍整個所有的程序真的有那麼簡單嗎再次強調大概是需要三個月的時間現在都已經四月了我們是3月21號總預算才公佈才確定結果現在因為摯愛難行要你們馬上交出書面報告"},{"start":7346.773,"end":7365.491,"text":"我們是在極力努力所以我們同仁也都非常辛苦有放下很多工作要趕快來彙整各種資料所以今天其實真的還是要再次提醒我們剛剛不斷的一直在強調中研院是科研人才非常重要的一個培養的平台"},{"start":7366.151,"end":7376.523,"text":"那麼不管是對國際上的交流還有我們人才的一個培養其實中研院扮演著非常非常重要的角色但是我們中研院被刪的預算剛剛講過了是三億多"},{"start":7380.948,"end":7400.615,"text":"被通案凍結的預算是百分之三十十一億這整體加起來我想這個影響層面應該是非常非常之大我們只能朝著解凍的方面去努力但是還是要請中研院我們有信心"},{"start":7401.155,"end":7428.788,"text":"因為中醫院一直以來扮演著非常重要的這個科研的一個就是培養人才的一個角色所以我們也希望我們繼續加油好謝謝謝謝院長謝謝主席好謝謝郭育晴委員院長請回我本來有宣告說在育晴委員諮詢後要休息五分鐘那因為葉仁芝委員有要事所以我們就先請葉仁芝委員諮詢"},{"start":7432.95,"end":7435.931,"text":"那等院支委員質詢完我們就休息五分鐘麻煩請那個院長還有彭新坤副院長經濟所的所長好請廖院長跟副院長還有所長院長副院長還有所長好那個因為我們"},{"start":7463.351,"end":7488.328,"text":"中研院有發布一個2025年的台灣經濟情勢總展望其實這段時間最近幾天大家對於經濟是最關心的那中研院又是我們應該算是我們研究的最高能量的機關所以當然很想要來了解一下我們政府或經濟部到底有沒有就這一波川普關稅所對台灣的影響來跟中研院請教我不知道院長有嗎"},{"start":7489.594,"end":7498.739,"text":"中文院這方面是有相當多的實例我知道那個現在因為我們現在政府推出了很多政策嘛那事先有沒有來跟比如說"},{"start":7500.334,"end":7527.161,"text":"中研院這邊不管是經濟所所長啊或者是彭新坤副院長這邊來請教說我們應該怎麼因應這一波經濟危機有嗎我想這個只要是政府單位來跟中研院的個別研究同仁來這個進行磋商的話不會經過院方所以我不會知道那有沒有跟那個副院長來問一下你的意見目前沒有沒有是不是那有沒有跟經濟所所長"},{"start":7528.791,"end":7537.429,"text":"張俊仁所長來詢問目前我也沒有也都沒有是不是好那這樣子我就來請教一下利用這個機會來跟大家請教一下第一個"},{"start":7540.023,"end":7566.312,"text":"本來這份報告裡面它這是去年12月出刊的當時對於我們的GDP的年增率的預估值是3.1%那我想請問一下副院長現在因為我也看過您最近發表的文章去年11月到今年去年11月有去做演講那今年1月也有演講實際上你都有提到川普當選之後有一個很不確定性好像您有提到"},{"start":7566.852,"end":7572.081,"text":"那現在已經很明確了他本來是要關稅是要加到32%但是現在暫緩90天先10%那你的預估對於我們現在那個GDP的影響是怎麼樣"},{"start":7578.625,"end":7599.842,"text":"非常感謝葉委員有注意到我的那個演講不過目前非常非常難預料我想我現在是瞬息萬變那我會覺得去年的預測3.1是不可能達到不可能嘛所以你覺得會下修多少一定會下修那至於會下修多少我要觀察這個未來這個幾個月的時間"},{"start":7605.649,"end":7613.224,"text":"謝謝那我再請問一下副院長因為現在總統的講法是說要用零關稅的這個基礎去跟美國談判"},{"start":7614.431,"end":7643.22,"text":"那他的想法是這樣那請問一下您支持這樣零關稅去談這樣的一個做法報告葉委員這個零關稅不是關鍵因為我們的法定關稅非常低了已經不到2%現在問題的關鍵是在非關稅貿易障礙對 有哪些包括像這個進口的配合包括檢疫包括像我們的基因的食品這些我們政府的規定都被美國在挑剔"},{"start":7644.54,"end":7656.758,"text":"甚至是我們的外匯市場的人為干預這個在美國的報告裡面都有提出來所以你的意思是說總統講的零關係因為他今天才投書外媒"},{"start":7657.802,"end":7680.55,"text":"你就覺得他講的不是重點重點應該是你剛講那些嘛零關稅其實對我們大部分的產品已經很低了只有少數像汽車有點偏高還是17.5像保健食品30%有點偏高那是大部分的進口產品都非常非常低非常低關鍵是在所以我們拿零關稅去跟他談他應該是不會買單應該是副院長剛講那些貿易非貿易障礙"},{"start":7685.632,"end":7714.091,"text":"要去把它消除之後美國可能才會給我們降低關稅你的意思是這樣嗎對那我希望說你可以跟總統建議一下那再來就是我們看這個GDP一定會下修嘛那我們看下一頁這個是也是經濟所前一年12月公佈的CPI物價指數是2.02那請問一下問一下所長好了你覺得我們的CPI會增加增加"},{"start":7715.725,"end":7734.045,"text":"我們的CPI事實上這個是因為這是去年12月的預估啦那因為當時大家也不知道說川普會提高關稅到32%嘛那經濟所會重新預估一下嗎會的那你覺得應該他的走勢會怎麼樣主要的問題還是在這個"},{"start":7736.904,"end":7741.948,"text":"水電的價格會不會造成我是說關稅的影響因為川普的關稅政策會不會影響到我們國內的物價"},{"start":7746.482,"end":7775.211,"text":"我是經濟所負責的梁淑君我想從關稅角度來看的話如果我們出口會下降的話而且因為對這個出口衰退的預期會導致這個資本外流這兩個因素都會有對我們新台幣貶值造成壓力那如果是這樣從這個角度來看的話確實會造成輸入性通膨那在這個基礎上原本物價的壓力就挺高的那有可能會讓物價有更上升的壓力"},{"start":7776.173,"end":7791.057,"text":"那現在有辦法預估嗎還是不確定我們現在因為就是這個關稅的幅度還不確定然後執行的長度也不確定我們修正的方向應該是會還是維持在二以上但是距離幅度現在還需要觀察"},{"start":7792.837,"end":7818.284,"text":"接下來再問一下匯率這是也是經濟所的預測也是去年12月公佈的是預測說美元匯率大概是32.51那是不是也來預測一下因為川普這個關稅政策就我剛才提到的兩個因素都是會讓匯率有貶值的壓力所以原來的預測應該是有一點高估了有點高估"},{"start":7820.071,"end":7844.698,"text":"我特別來問這些問題就是要說因為我們看我們不管是所長副所長副院長當然院長是統領所有中研院大家其實對經濟都很了解而且也都非常關心所以如果中研院可以主動出席雖然我們現在剛剛問起來好像行政院或經貿辦公室並沒有來問你們意見開會沒有找你們但我覺得如果中研院既然我們有這麼豐沛的研究能量"},{"start":7845.538,"end":7870.962,"text":"主動出擊第一位政府給他們正確的方向這可以幫助台灣度過經濟危機那接下來再來我們來看一下這是前一段時間引起了一個風波那個經濟所還有那個副院長可以請回這應該是國建所這個一個生物醫學科學研究所之前一個風波就是有民眾反映"},{"start":7872.639,"end":7895.679,"text":"忽然間有中研院的人找他們說要抽血檢查而且指定小朋友所以大家非常的害怕那這個當時是公文啦公文是這個我想請問一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情因為任何的現在家長對小朋友都很寶貝啦忽然有人上門指定說要抽小朋友的血大家都會非常的害怕這個事情為什麼會這樣我想這是個誤會我們請那個首長來解釋"},{"start":7901.089,"end":7904.09,"text":"委員好 我是生意所所長陳盈莊很簡短的跟您報告一下這是一個國建署的委託計畫基本上是針對全台灣的民眾來做調查所以沒有集中在小朋友上面那基本上它有一個很特別的抽樣式"},{"start":7916.235,"end":7926.557,"text":"全台灣會抽出八十個里八十個里每一個里還會再抽出十個家庭那他們在做家訪的時候呢會先寫一封信問說願不願意受訪然後呢當時訪問的時候也會把信帶去如果他們不願意受訪那這個事情就會結束如果會訪問的話也會在當時在安排下面訪問的時間所以實際上這個可能是一個誤會這是一個誤會"},{"start":7944.18,"end":7963.491,"text":"但當時媒體人爆了蠻大的因為那既然有誤會我覺得中研院我們都相信中研院不會作亂七八糟事情啦可是如果說是有誤會造成人家心情恐慌可能要思考一下那個流程是不是在哪個地方有疏失啦我覺得大家可能再思考一下是 我們有檢查SOP 謝謝OK 謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員院長請回那我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":7975.796,"end":7976.517,"text":"有發言的感覺"},{"start":7989.079,"end":7989.359,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8017.619,"end":8020.077,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8024.377,"end":8024.637,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8053.476,"end":8054.217,"text":"謝謝您的收看"},{"start":8081.858,"end":8082.459,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":8093.182,"end":8093.202,"text":"好"},{"start":8115.043,"end":8145.043,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8145.043,"end":8145.584,"text":"你這個開採的那個"},{"start":8170.879,"end":8171.579,"text":"那是中美聯合監督會議會議員"},{"start":8193.505,"end":8213.814,"text":"對阿 中國完全沒問題"},{"start":8222.944,"end":8246.869,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8267.993,"end":8272.217,"text":"OK good"},{"start":8284.828,"end":8285.328,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8326.846,"end":8329.928,"text":"好 我們會議繼續我們接下來請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":8343.483,"end":8345.51,"text":"謝謝主席 有請院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":8349.649,"end":8375.99,"text":"張委員好院長好我想就是說這幾天前面也有非常多委員關心有關於美國關稅的議題是不是有跟中研院做一些相關的請教那因為這件事情其實引發了世界各國政府的一些震盪然後也讓大家都非常的對未來有一些憂心不過我也在網路上面有看到有一位經濟所的許文泰的教授他研究員他其實也寫了相關的文章來跟大家分析"},{"start":8376.65,"end":8404.67,"text":"好那這個呢這個文章其實也受非常多的人得到認同啦然後轉載啦然後也有國外的一些媒體也來做一些採訪所以我想這個東西其實是一個非常重要在彰顯一個很重要的事情就是中原音樂其實是台灣的智庫是台灣的大腦所以這是非常重要的一個我們必須應該要省慎在預算上面應該要更省慎的一個單位那接下來其實跟這篇文章無關啦所以其實是想要"},{"start":8415.867,"end":8430.634,"text":"剛剛許文泰研究員給了我們一些方向就是台灣怎麼辦那我現在就想要來請教院長那中研院怎麼辦就是說在我們面對的這一次大規模的總預算的一些刪減案"},{"start":8432.475,"end":8447.592,"text":"我知道就是之前院長其實也有相關的發言就是說對中研院的一些影響所以我想要請教一下就是說我知道院長已經啟動了院內經費彈性調配優先確保研究人員薪水以及核心計畫的運作例如去碳燃氫的計畫因為屬於新興計畫所以"},{"start":8450.675,"end":8474.609,"text":"在立法院沒有審過這個預算之前呢每月逾百萬元的人力成本暫時由其他研究經費來支應那宜蘭地熱探勘團隊開挖深度達1000公尺這個經費也是透過既有的計畫來去支應但是我想請教院長說明的是說這樣子的調控能夠撐多久那這樣子的調控有哪些的計畫受影響可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":8477.488,"end":8495.937,"text":"區團燃氣清新步伐這部分據我了解上禮拜已經通過了學術署陳建章我説明一下新的計畫區團燃氣裡面有一支有受到影響因為它是屬於新的在公共建設計畫那支我們受了影響大概一千萬元左右"},{"start":8496.577,"end":8510.23,"text":"然後我們自己院內的計畫有一個跟AI相關的AI在人文與科學研究的創新應用計畫那一支計畫有受到影響大概受到一百多萬的影響然後這些計畫都還是受到30%的凍結現在還在"},{"start":8514.574,"end":8530.74,"text":"但是我想因為其實這個因為你調配了一些計畫那一定有一些計畫也要做一些縮減嘛對不對這部分是不是也可以簡單說明一下實際上影響因為我覺得可以希望清楚的說明讓大家知道說中研院在這一次的預算刪減案實質上對我們的學術研究會產生什麼樣子的一個影響"},{"start":8532.149,"end":8548.022,"text":"我想最大的影響是讓大家的企圖心不見了反正我做多也是OK我做少一樣可以交差原來想要更加有企圖心的往更先進更前瞻的方向做"},{"start":8550.083,"end":8566.469,"text":"或許這方面給大家的感覺就覺得說不是這樣子的狀況所以這方面的影響是沒有辦法來量化也沒有辦法來實質來說明的都是大家心理層面上的"},{"start":8567.233,"end":8584.911,"text":"我想這個心理層面的影響是非常非常可怕的因為我們在講學生的學習上面最怕就是他失去那個好奇心嘛對不對還有他的學習動機嘛那這樣子的一個刪減案其實並不是只有研究計畫就是台灣未來的智庫的擴充知識的量能擴充會受到影響還有我們這些研究人員的熱情"},{"start":8586.192,"end":8602.86,"text":"跟創造力跟研究的這些動能都會受到影響所以我希望就是說有在觀看我們直播的所有的台灣的公民朋友都要非常了解這次的三檢預算案對於團體的士氣研究都受到非常大的打擊那我想要再請教院長就是說"},{"start":8603.8,"end":8627.362,"text":"因為其實從我自己非常關心的就是兒童科普日這件事情過去這幾年其實兒童科普日也都帶來非常好的人潮然後也做非常好的一個兒童的科普基層教育也在家長之間大受好評那很可惜的是我們可以看到114年我們的業務費雖然沒有做太多的調整只有大概一點點 將近6萬塊可是我們的媒體政策及業務生產費"},{"start":8629.224,"end":8636.862,"text":"少只剩下從49萬變6萬那我想知道那這個今年的規模會不會有什麼樣子的影響可不可以清楚的說明一下我們請秘書處長來回答"},{"start":8638.891,"end":8662.073,"text":"委員好 秘書處處長曾國祥對 因為由於受到這個經費的煽動那我們所有的活動基本上都是要由所中心來這個響應那因為所中心還是以研究為主那在這個經費有限情況之下今年的規模確實可能會變小此外如同委員所提到的因為我們的這個沒宣費同時剩下60%所以今年的宣傳的力道就不會像往年那麼樣的積極"},{"start":8663.234,"end":8690.28,"text":"所以可能參與的人數方面可能也會比較不如預期但是我們還是會盡力把這個活動辦好謝謝我想問一下就是說場次呢因為去年原本就是大家都非常的期待可以有更多的場次嘛那今年的場次是不是會變少對因為我們還要跟所中心進行這個醫院的調查那我剛才所說的因為經費的刪減那我不太想對那大家還是會以研究為優先所以在場次的方面我們不敢很樂觀的預估"},{"start":8691.34,"end":8706.675,"text":"好 那我可以簡單的跟您確認一下就是說我去年去的時候我們其實現場結合了我們的研究有做一些很可愛的扭蛋機然後我們還會送一些就是給小朋友的一些贈品然後還有一些很有趣的場次所以是不是這些通通都可能會消失"},{"start":8707.296,"end":8726.533,"text":"我們會盡力的還是會希望能夠繼續辦下去對那因為這個如同剛才說的因為宣傳費用是減少的所以我們的做法大概就會比較回到傳統的方式用公務機關的譬如說用公文用我們的自己的新聞稿這樣的方式來做宣傳"},{"start":8727.133,"end":8747.981,"text":"好的沒關係因為我想這個是藍白亂山預算造成一個後果啦但是我希望還是可以幫我這邊用我們的臉書的平台社群的平台一起來幫忙宣傳所以到時候如果有相關的資訊的話也希望pass到我們這邊我們一起來做宣傳讓更多的孩子有機會可以來參與這麼有好這麼優質的一個運動那接下來再請請教一下院長就是有關於才化法"},{"start":8748.601,"end":8764.57,"text":"好 就是剛剛講這種預算啦可是財劃法也會受到一些影響嘛所以我想要請教就是說之前有團體連署就是財劃法的修法可能會讓我們的科研預算倒退十年那我自己大概去估算因為像我看了國科會說它大概有兩百億的影響"},{"start":8765.47,"end":8790.1,"text":"那我自己算了一下這個可能會是中研院的一個影響大概就是從學研領域會少14萬自然人文的研究也會少14萬所以大概總共會有28億的影響我不曉得說院長現在有沒有一些相關的預估金額跟影響這個金額到目前為止是非常難估算的那假如這個委員的數字是對的話那對我們影響是非常非常大的"},{"start":8792,"end":8805.604,"text":"這方向我想我們是有點不確定性特別是對未來科研除了不能刪除外更應該要加碼投資在這狀況之下我們確實是有點擔憂"},{"start":8809.131,"end":8835.403,"text":"對 那我想可能接下來也可能要再看院長也可能要開始來評估一下就是這28%下去之後我們的實際影響可能會是哪些可能要做一些因應的部分尤其剛剛有講到就是說全球的AI都在競爭大家都那麼的競爭可是我們卻在國家打擊自己的士氣打擊自己的研究計畫但是我想我們還是可能要有一些因應的作為可能要請院長要積極的來做那最後一件事情我想要講的是說"},{"start":8836.823,"end":8857.733,"text":"其實比較輕鬆的事情啦就是說中研院其實一直都有一些相關的出版品那大概已經有累積了三千多件的一個出版品喔但是呢兒童面相的出版品從2008年到現在只有這一本啦整個這17年來只有這一本喔那其實因為受到這個兒童權利公約的關係喔其實許多的部會都開始製作了相關的"},{"start":8858.633,"end":8883.858,"text":"這些繪本就可能簡單讓孩子可以更了解他們這個機構在做什麼像這個是國政中心他們做的一些很有趣的這種翻番書立體的翻番書可以讓小朋友透過這些書可以更了解地震的時候他應該怎麼預防怎麼避難像這個是農業署做的去講有關於胎險的故事也是一個很可愛的繪本"},{"start":8884.977,"end":8911.492,"text":"所以我只是想說因為其實在法國它也有一個國家科學研究中心他們也是用非常可愛的方式去講分子科學那我們是不是也有可能來研擬一下有沒有可能來製作一本講述中研院某一個領域研究的書呢或者是把我們兒童科普日的東西再濃縮起來做一個很可愛的繪本可以跟孩子來介紹呢"},{"start":8912.077,"end":8934.724,"text":"這方面是很好建議但是因為我們中醫院這個目前沒有這方面的人才這個也恐怕也不是我們的專長那加上這個大家現在忙於這個做這個在這個可用預算之下能夠照顧好自己的最基礎的研究所以這方面我們目前大概只能是來"},{"start":8937.985,"end":8952.47,"text":"來規劃來檢視看我們有沒有這方面的能量那委員的建議是非常好這是非常可愛的繪本比較可行的方式可能是我們找外面的單位一起來合作那我們來跟專家一起來做這個可能比較可行"},{"start":8953.151,"end":8975.932,"text":"好我了解了那就是希望就是我非常可以清楚的了解就是院長也有這個心想要來跟外部團隊一起來思考看看但我也非常清楚的知道說因為現在的預算現在預算受到非常大的影響所以以至於現在這本可能執行上面會有一些難度那我們就希望說今年今年接下來我們"},{"start":8977.574,"end":8989.728,"text":"我們黨跟民眾黨的委員在審相關預算的時候要更謹慎不然他不僅是打擊了我們研究團隊的士氣也好他可能也會犧牲掉我們兒童可以親近科普知識的機會謝謝好 謝謝謝謝 院長請回謝謝張雅琳委員那我們接下來請吳佩義委員"},{"start":9004.733,"end":9007.676,"text":"謝謝主席 我請中研院廖院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":9011.431,"end":9016.272,"text":"好 吳委員長好 院長好今天是中研院的業務報告詢答那當然很多委員會關心到預算因為有預算我們才能夠執行才能夠做事情那剛前面也有很多的關切那首先我想要請教院長一個問題因為社會上也有一種意見認為說中研院的預算即便受到煽動預算還是比去年多那為什麼要哭求製造社會的恐慌關於這一點因為我個人是不認同的我想要請問院長你有什麼樣的回應"},{"start":9041.218,"end":9059.947,"text":"我們增加這個分兩點來講第一個我們增加部分是因應很大一部分是這個加調薪的部分至少3億元是用來調薪另外1億元是用來做這個治安的改善然後剩下的部分是因應這個所有研究耗材經費"},{"start":9061.687,"end":9083.612,"text":"研究的成本在過去幾年當中增加的非常多所以我們增加的部分是這樣子最重要的影響是研究員的企圖心就被打擊了我們增加預算並不是讓我們過得舒服是研究員希望做的更多的事情中文醫院並沒有法定說你要做多少研究"},{"start":9084.612,"end":9112.244,"text":"所以我們爭取預算的原因是因為每個研究員有很強的企圖心想做更多更前瞻的研究拿一樣的薪水他拿一樣的薪水他需要做更多的研究那這樣的狀況之下那他現在沒辦法做所以嚴格講起來他薪水沒有被影響他一樣可以做他的事情但是對國家未來的科研就無形中產生一個沒有辦法估計的影響"},{"start":9112.984,"end":9130.733,"text":"是 其實站在支持我們國家的學術研究的立場我是支持你們增加預算因為其實去年我們在委員會這裡我又記得不同黨派的委員都一直在關切的是我們給研究人員的待遇如何尤其拿跟很多國家來比較是的"},{"start":9132.174,"end":9152.558,"text":"甚至台灣的研究人員的待遇甚至比有些國家少到五分之一差距是這麼落差這麼大我們的學術人員也是在國際的市場裡面去競爭願意留在我們台灣繼續從事學術研究我們其實都抱持感恩這當中都有一份為國貢獻的心情否則以他們的優秀他們的才能"},{"start":9156.579,"end":9161.825,"text":"其實很多的國家都紛紛向他們招手所以我還是認為說我們應該要來給予支持因為這都是對我們國家的發展是相當的重要那院長你剛也在詢問當中多次提到說雖然說刪減凍結數字這麼大但是你的責任當然是你要盡力的讓"},{"start":9176.98,"end":9184.625,"text":"我們研究人員還有我們相關的業務不要受到影響所以努力的在做調度能不能實際的舉例一下是什麼樣的調度因為我舉幾個例子例如說刪減這還不是凍結刪減我們的出國差旅費這包含了學術會議學術訪問這個是被刪了15%3000多萬那還有我們的這個"},{"start":9201.575,"end":9215.848,"text":"出國的教育訓練也是被刪了15%那像這些被刪掉它大概會影響實際影響到是什麼樣的因為我想國人可能不了解因為說就是搭飛機出國實際上不知道你們去做什麼事情那我們現在被刪了15%我們如何來調度呢我們請國際處長回答"},{"start":9221.032,"end":9244.293,"text":"委員國際處處長孟子欽報告我們被刪掉這個出國旅費最大的影響就是把年輕學者跟學生送出國去參加學術會議還有進行國際交流的短言計劃那這個的確是15%的刪減會造成我們必須要減低補助的金額或者是降低補助的名額那這個在今年應該是一定會反映出一個實質上的影響"},{"start":9244.793,"end":9264.822,"text":"那我們目前會是以減少名額還是說名額維持只是補助的金額降低這個我們還在評估但是可能會是以減少名額可是補助金額對每一位送出去的同仁還是給他可以支應這個旅費的金額這樣子可能對每一個人的影響會比較少一點"},{"start":9265.502,"end":9292.805,"text":"是 這個我們還是就是非常希望明年因為預算還有明年就是未來這些預算有機會都要把它加回來因為就我們所知其實過去就已經都希望要再去持續增加了那委員我們到年終之後我們會再評估如果說有一些我們院內的預算可以想辦法挪移的話我們當然會再繼續支持但是這個可能還是需要再評估之後才能夠決定"},{"start":9293.405,"end":9309.891,"text":"對沒錯這也是我們立法院大家要共同來協商啦因為我看這一次我們的刪減條件很多是不得流用這個就會讓在後面我想說對如果說委員可以幫忙的話就不得流用這個如果可以中研院排除在不得流用這一項那這樣對我們真的會有很大的幫助"},{"start":9313.012,"end":9318.293,"text":"恐怕是很多部位都希望可以排除不得留用所以這個我只是說要讓大家知道這個文字不得留用它實際上會造成什麼樣的影響好 那幾位可以請回繼續請教院長是台灣橋樑計畫這個去年總統也有接見這是世界和平基金會的主席來到台灣那我看了中央院近日有發布嘛我們今年是預計會在台灣來舉辦"},{"start":9338.177,"end":9355.645,"text":"那預計除了中研院以外包括台大、清大、成大、師大、中興、東海、中國醫藥、亞洲、慈濟等大學也會一起來參與這個跨校跨院校的合作計畫我想應該是今年台灣學術界一個蠻重大的盛事能不能說明一下我們目前的這個進展那預計怎麼樣來進行好我們請國際處長來說好"},{"start":9362.548,"end":9373.512,"text":"這個計畫從今年11月到明年4月在台灣總共會邀請28位諾貝爾獎得主涵蓋和平獎、化學、生醫跟物理所以各領域都有"},{"start":9376.728,"end":9396.355,"text":"經濟沒有 經濟目前沒有那他們除了在台灣會給公開演講之外現在最重要的一個我們想要推動的事情是跟台灣的學者還有學生甚至一些民眾有一些對話深入的對話那我們希望這個活動可以讓台灣走入世界也讓世界看到台灣是 先十位諾貝爾獎得主"},{"start":9399.671,"end":9404.354,"text":"28位 10位是本院支持那總共這個台灣橋樑的計畫就像您剛說的有包括各個不同的學校參與所以總共會有28位28位的諾貝爾獎得主來到台灣這個恐怕是盛況空前所以我也希望說我們可以多加強交流啊 相關的宣傳我覺得除了學術圈以外也應該可以跟國人大家一起來分享這是非常重要的知識性的相關的交流"},{"start":9425.586,"end":9429.669,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來是很關心的因為我看到BBC有一個報導就說2024全球電力需求持續增長那來自乾淨能源的貢獻已經超過了四倍四成那其中太陽能發電量的成長是最快的過去三年太陽能已經增長了一倍"},{"start":9444.199,"end":9453.463,"text":"那眾議院近日宣布院長今天有報告就是我們的太陽能技術我們的光電轉換效率已經超過了31%這個下世代的太陽能電池元件這個比目前市售產品轉換效率是高出三成以上所以可能很多人就在期待啦那未來我們的這個技術量產啊落地的應用啊等等這個怎麼樣來進行進展你們請院長說明我們請那個觀念中心主任來回答"},{"start":9471.031,"end":9474.436,"text":"委員好 我是關鍵中心主任李超煌那麼目前我們這個技術在3月26號已經開了一個疊層太陽能技術的說明會"},{"start":9480.646,"end":9503.78,"text":"那麼大概全台灣跟太陽能產業相關的包括材料商、設備商、電池商、模組商都有派代表來參加那麼目前已經有兩個大的公司表示願意加入這個聯發聯盟那麼我們期望初期是以共同研發的方式然後各自去開發各自的製材把這個技術真正落地在台灣可以生產"},{"start":9505.18,"end":9513.342,"text":"這個我覺得非常的重要就是這是一個很重要的研究技術的突破加上我們跟產業已經開始有在結盟因為我們台灣太陽能板2011年開始設置它的這個太陽能線其實差不多20年所以我們現在這個未來如果能夠技術應用的話除了設在新的案場我們既有案場要更新的時候我們剛好就是達上這個時間點所以非常的重要也非常的期待那請中央醫院繼續努力加油那我們國人都會支持你們謝謝"},{"start":9534.929,"end":9559.537,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩玉委員好 請林靜委員執行好 謝謝主席有請廖院長請中理院廖院長"},{"start":9562.99,"end":9584.264,"text":"林委員要照好 院長辛苦院長 中研院今年的業務費被國民黨凍結了30%共計11億多那特別必須強調的是中研院的國內外旅費以及媒體政策跟業務宣導費也早就已經被通案"},{"start":9585.746,"end":9591.012,"text":"減八了一成比 統三所以剩下來的錢又被凍結了30%簡直是嚴重打擊了中研院推動科普以及延展年輕學術人才的量能"},{"start":9602.066,"end":9618.189,"text":"我想台灣的學術研究就是站在國際舞台上接受強烈競爭跟挑戰的最重要的一個關鍵我想只有權力的衝刺我們才能跟世界各國並駕齊驅所以沒有哪一個國家說會自己的在野黨"},{"start":9619.19,"end":9642.907,"text":"因為通常這個中研院這種學術機關應該就是不分黨派大家來支持自己國家學術研究所以竟然我們的在野黨透過這種大幅度凍結預算的手段然後再叫中研院的學者這個停下來等解凍那逼迫台灣的這個學術研究規模來縮減我覺得這就是很"},{"start":9644.088,"end":9668.703,"text":"某個程度我是覺得是非常的惡劣啦那我現在是納悶是說當然這個中研院可能想說到底我們是犯了多大的重大的疏失才會被動成這樣讓在野黨不惜犧牲這個學術衝擊國際的交流也要這樣大幅度的凍結預算院長你覺得你有犯下重大的疏失嗎"},{"start":9676.537,"end":9686.979,"text":"我想實際上真的是莫須有的罪名因為國民黨自己的凍結預算的內文其實也都說不出一個所以然為什麼要凍我們 為什麼要刪我們"},{"start":9689.02,"end":9712.094,"text":"那搞不清楚這樣的一個狀況之下很遺憾的 很明顯的就是說台灣這樣重要的學術工作成為國民黨惡搞的犧牲品那我想為了預算問題剛剛葛如君召委又有點名我所以我想我也趁這個機會做個提問喔我其實我也很納悶就國民黨又要動預算然後又要趕火車 請你解動預算那"},{"start":9715.976,"end":9726.665,"text":"那當初他在動是在動台灣文的動心聲的喔對哪有這種就是說你要動人家然後又要說啊你趕快解凍就是說怕人然後還要喊救人我已經大開殺戒然後又說你怎麼"},{"start":9733.911,"end":9755.589,"text":"不去送醫院莫名其妙那國民黨可能就很清楚知道他這樣的亂三動預算已經造成了社會很大的輿論他也造成他自己很大的困擾所以他現在才急著想要這個彌補的時候叫你們趕快來送解凍案那可是喔很有趣的是當初國民黨動文的這個"},{"start":9758.371,"end":9774.317,"text":"理由就是一篇言不及語的廢文甚至還複製貼上那要叫中研院的話剛剛院長你也回答你還很用心回答所以我要花很多的心力然後我們要花很多的時間要去寫一篇解凍的報告"},{"start":9775.237,"end":9790.238,"text":"即便是書面報告也不能亂寫我們又不是國民黨所以我想這個部分很顯然就是說他們召委然後用這樣的方式來質詢你我是覺得國民黨確實是沒有到現在還沒有反省能力針對這件事情"},{"start":9792.441,"end":9821.146,"text":"我們預算被凍結影響的層面相當廣那我最關心的就是說我們的南部縣區因為十月份我們就有要辦理縣區開放的這個系列活動那我想十月份要辦的活動我們是不是現在就要開始做所謂的左手採購的一些作業包括一些籌備網路架設啦 活動設計啊廠部啊 宣傳等等那這些"},{"start":9823.167,"end":9838.753,"text":"剛剛好像雅玲委員有稍微提及那你有回答說這個就能就現在的多少預算做多少的事情嘛那是不是這個部分就也只能這樣 院長是的 就我們也儘量在目前可動用預算之下來規劃那詳細我們就請秘書處關鍵中心來回答"},{"start":9843.475,"end":9867.108,"text":"報告委員 秘書處處長曾國祥除了剛才提到的可能在規模跟參與人數會影響之外您特別關心的南部縣區開放主要還會因為國內旅費刪了15%而且不能留用那因為南部縣區特別需要這一個資源所以它影響的程度會更大但是我們還是會盡我們的全力把這個活動繼續辦下去"},{"start":9868.849,"end":9897.816,"text":"因為刪除預算他如果給你寫個但書不得留用就是真的沒有辦法所以我們兩個好他再來要跟院長來探討一個數位化研究資料開放的問題知識是公共財那由全民同資那掌握研究資源的這個中研院我想有責任推動知識的普及與開放我舉個例來講中研院的台史所的台灣日記知識庫就做得很好"},{"start":9898.756,"end":9924.892,"text":"讓台灣大眾都可以很輕易的找到林憲棠啊田健智郎等這種重要的歷史人物的日記這一點非常的重要那像林憲棠的日記如果在台灣史的學者手中可能他就轉換成論文那同樣是林憲棠的日記到了導演手中可能就變成一部電影那所以開放這個資料乍看之下可能是吃力不討好可對於台灣文化台灣研究的長遠建設來看是可以創造無數的可能性"},{"start":9928.214,"end":9939.625,"text":"所以開放資料的重要性真的遠不亞於中研院研究的推陳出新那透過中研院的數位文化中心我們大概可以掌握到有131個資料庫"},{"start":9944.91,"end":9972.253,"text":"包含資料庫 工具 平台跟主題網站在內的一些數位化的成果可是當中有部分的網站已經失效或者已經需要重新佈建那這一點麻煩中也因為必須要重新盤點跟改善那另外關鍵字的這個搜索功能好像也只能針對個別的網站提供的簡短說明來內容做搜尋沒有辦法說處理跨資料庫的檢索"},{"start":9973.974,"end":9980.264,"text":"那這一點可能是否也要請中研院來提出一些改革方案我想這部分是不是也簡單說明一下"},{"start":9981.448,"end":10010.522,"text":"社會文化中心陳希仁委員說得好 事實上我們現在在通盤整理因為我們現在可能要建置一個Open Academy的方法來使得研究人員就近包括您剛所講的日記資料庫來妥善的運用 運用在他們的研究上面去所以我們現在想全部的納入這樣的系統裡面來以我們過去的開放博物館為基礎建立起這個所謂的開放的一個學術院讓人文研究學者能夠擅進從文字影像到數字的社會化整理工作"},{"start":10017.468,"end":10028.898,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們在南部縣區也建立了一個數位圖書館現在方便南部的學者到我們的南部縣區就可以用到我們這些數位的資料"},{"start":10029.358,"end":10048.831,"text":"好 那現在就我整理了幾項我們中研院網路開放資料使用者希望改善的點或許可以提供中研院一些改革的方向像近代史 這個數位資料庫算是一個模範 它內容完整而全面可是像說石宇所的數位典藏資料庫整合系統"},{"start":10049.571,"end":10068.623,"text":"就是這個入口網站的型態它整合檢索的功能差那剛才的那個平台上剛才我們提到的那個台時所這個台灣日記知識庫它則是建立在維基百科這個平台上所以那個文字資料的結構性"},{"start":10069.804,"end":10089.422,"text":"相對低那如果未來如果要建立這個規模包含列啊欄啊的這種資料表可能會造成處理電腦處理上的困難那怎麼突破這可能要請中研院多費心一點那另外有台灣文獻全文資料庫有新建的報紙資料還沒有上網的問題那台灣研究"},{"start":10092.765,"end":10113.944,"text":"古籍資料庫則是欠缺全文字的檔所以特別必須提到的是說中研院建設這個平台似乎好像都偏向計畫成果的彙整很難跨資料庫的檢索這一點相當可惜所以以上是不是也請院長做一些改革"},{"start":10115.105,"end":10140.112,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我們朝這個方向來做事實上有些東西我們已經開始在做謝謝委員的提醒那需要多少時間跟委員報告一下就是我們現在關鍵中心有一個新的計畫就是利用AI來解讀歷史文本今年已經開始執行而且我們投入相當大的經費有台詞鎖民族鎖跟進食鎖三個鎖一起來做所以在您提到這個"},{"start":10142.473,"end":10159.503,"text":"報紙資料還有這個全文字檔案的部分我們這邊一定會加速的來進行好因為中研院的這個數位內容全數都是全民投資的成果所以開放全民共享我想理所當然那以社會所台灣社會意向調查為這個例子調查執行後三年就會開放資料下載那調查完成後半年就會開放問卷下載那請問院長中研院這種"},{"start":10170.49,"end":10195.319,"text":"所有的數位化研究資源是否都有像這個台灣社會意向調查這樣的開放年限的規劃我想每個計畫的它的這個開放程度也不一樣它有特殊的條件所以可能沒有辦法這個一個政策用諸四海那可以每一個不同的資料來分開來處理這可能比較合適"},{"start":10197.096,"end":10223.491,"text":"所以你覺得就各所要各行其事就是說大家朝能夠開放 儘量開放的目標前進但是每一個計畫 每一個資料庫都有它特殊的狀況所以我們必須要考量這個部分當然啦 數位化成果開放程度不一可是對於這些公共資源我想我們應該要最大程度的開放因為它還是可以讓全民共享好 以上謝謝 謝謝院長"},{"start":10225.792,"end":10228.194,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝林議員 請院長回座謝謝 我們接下來請萬美玲委員好 謝謝召委 我們有請廖俊智院長好 有請院長"},{"start":10254.332,"end":10270.002,"text":"王委員好好 院長辛苦了我想今天的質詢到現在不論是我們葛如今召委或者是林盈瑾召委以及我們所有的委員我想對於中研院的預算我們都是充分支持但是本於明代的職責嚴格審查那現在呢"},{"start":10273.224,"end":10287.356,"text":"一如過往這幾年都一樣過去的這個例子就是我們解凍的案子事實上到了4月了5月了那也提醒院長那我們有很多可能都是要靠這個書面報告提出來以後就可以申請解凍案那我想這個"},{"start":10288.277,"end":10310.573,"text":"醫警委員也很替中原醫院來設想葛如荊委員也很著急這個解凍案真的也要趕快送上來我們希望知道您的業務非常繁忙但是既然這麼急著預算恐怕在解凍的書面報告上面也要稍微花點心思我們回到我們今天的主題來看院長不知道有沒有看到"},{"start":10311.413,"end":10338.302,"text":"這個國科會的吳承文主委在日前他有表示他說台灣沒有諾貝爾獎的得主真是丟臉這話其實有一點重那我們中研院作為最高的研究單位也參與過很多的國際會議會集了無數的精英學者在這裡我們過去李遠哲前院長他是第一個獲獎的台灣人翁啟惠前院長也差一點點他其實就有可能會獲得諾貝爾獎"},{"start":10340.223,"end":10351.459,"text":"所以中研院可以說是可能會去催生出台灣這個本土諾貝爾獎得主的一個地方那你是如何看待吳主委這個語重心長的一個說法"},{"start":10352.674,"end":10373.334,"text":"布洛貝爾講 他其實是要表彰對全人類有重大貢獻的研究這個我理解 但是他說我們一直沒有這個得主是丟臉的事情所以我們不能捨本逐末我們要先追求我們研究有沒有辦法對全世界人類造成重大貢獻"},{"start":10375.856,"end":10398.665,"text":"有很多很好貢獻的研究成果不一定拿到諾貝爾獎所以我們應該追求的是我理解您的說法那我請教您一您看當前我們台灣的學術環境以及研究經費等等的相關條件足不足夠能夠催生出我們本土諾貝爾獎的得主目前的客觀條件確實是比較困難"},{"start":10400.166,"end":10428.563,"text":"你覺得如果說是不夠的話是大概欠缺哪些地方欠缺哪方面的條件我們主要是需要有一個很好的條件吸引很好的人才什麼樣的條件需要薪水要很高然後研究經費要很多最重要就是全民要善待這些研究人員不要受政治干預太多希望說研究人員能夠專心做研究能夠鼓勵他們有企圖心往前衝"},{"start":10429.403,"end":10438.376,"text":"院長我想您講的這些本身都非常的認同真的非常認同但我們就是要慢慢朝這個方向去做不足的要想辦法補起來那當然你也參與過無數的國際會議了那也跟很多諾貝爾獎世界各國諾貝爾獎得主的交流過"},{"start":10445.046,"end":10469.887,"text":"所以您應該對於這個獲得諾貝爾獎的這個想法就像您剛剛所說的這樣那既然你有這麼多的想法那我們的這個吳主委也是就是求好心切的說出這樣的重話那我們的部長啊其實在當時有些表述那不曉得這個說法之後您有沒有跟我們的吳主委還有鄭部長去討論過這個事情因為事實上我想我們三個部長兩個部長跟院長是息息相關的嘛"},{"start":10471.095,"end":10488.474,"text":"事實上之前我們也討論過類似的問題最主要是如何建構台灣一個很好的研究環境所以這個說法之後你們有討論過嗎就這個說法沒有針對這個說法討論過可能找個時間三個人聊一聊我覺得對這個是會有幫助的好不好"},{"start":10489.815,"end":10519.075,"text":"我想在吴组委2月中旬说出这个言论之后我看到中研院有发出一个新闻稿你有说世界和平基金会启动了一个台湾桥梁计划要邀请中研院台大 清大等等我们在台湾很多知名的大学一起参与要在今年的11月到2026明年的4月期间至少来接待至少25位诺贝尔奖得主来台湾交流我觉得听到这个消息我觉得很棒"},{"start":10519.455,"end":10547.651,"text":"那不曉得這是本來的既定計畫還是我們吳主委說完之後我們趕快來做了這個很早以前就既定計畫嘛那本席看到中研院負責邀請跟接待大概是十位諾貝爾獎得主那其中包含了這個諾貝爾和平獎一位物理學獎三位生理學跟醫學獎三位跟化學獎三位嘛那不曉得啊就是來這麼棒的一個人才來這邊跟我們交流我們要用什麼樣的形式來跟他做交流那這個規劃什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":10549.042,"end":10562.389,"text":"官員國際處處長報告我們現在的交流形式第一個就是所有的得主他都會給一個公開演講這個公開演講是大家都可以去參與的不是只有中研院所以我們希望開放讓全民都可以聽到這個諾貝爾得獎組的演講"},{"start":10565.25,"end":10581.191,"text":"所有的大專院校所有的民眾都有機會是不是那很棒啊那這個相關的計畫這樣好不好我沒有那麼多時間讓你全部闡述完但是我覺得這很重要能不能把書面的報告提供給我們辦公室好不好我其實覺得委員會的委員都可以知道一下好不好"},{"start":10582.372,"end":10603.145,"text":"那我想那個積蓄院長 曾當道別院長得主來台交流是非常之有助於我們這個學術啊 這個眼界也好啊 經驗也好嘛那可是我看到這一次我們這個台灣橋樑計畫是由這個世界和平基金會來主辦的我擔心是不是就只有這一次那如果感覺這是很好的有沒有可能未來是由我們中研院來把它變成常態性的計畫"},{"start":10604.245,"end":10626.561,"text":"我們一直都每年都有邀請兩三位諾貝爾獎得主來院演講這一次是因為這個和平基金會他要一次邀請這麼多他輪流在世界不同的國家做這樣的活動所以明年不太可能再有二十幾位也沒那麼多諾貝爾獎了沒有關係我想因為要做到這樣子要做到這樣子恐怕做成常態性他是有難度的"},{"start":10626.841,"end":10644.357,"text":"但是像您說的兩位三位五位八位我覺得其實真的可以我覺得眾議院常態性來做這件事如果這次的經驗又可以作為一個很好的一個吸收未來我們就這樣做好不好我們幾乎每年至少有一位幾乎好我們繼續加強接下來我想繼續請教一下廖院長我看到你3月26號接受媒體的專訪"},{"start":10646.178,"end":10661.701,"text":"那這個議題上面都繞著我們國家的能源跟科技發展那不管是這個淨零核能AI量子科技生技等等那你還提出了這個淨零五支箭那整個看起來好像都是比較在這個著重在科學研究"},{"start":10662.282,"end":10688.857,"text":"但是事實上我們按照中研院主持法第二條規定我們其實還有這個人文社會科學的一個研究那去年我們在審查預算的時候我記憶還猶新我們所有的這個委員大家其實都在講說過去我們都在講說這個中研院是重理工輕人文我們也希望能夠在這個人文跟社會科學上面多下點功夫但是這個訪談當中我們沒有看到這個相關的計畫不知道是不是就是這幾年來我們還是沒有在人文科學上面"},{"start":10689.797,"end":10710.37,"text":"做一些比較相關的計畫或是琢磨那倒不是這樣我們在人文方面投資非常多譬如說我們有這個人文精英獎學金計畫我們就資助全台灣的人文界的博士生每年挑選15位郵政院的資助好 那院長那天為什麼沒有提到"},{"start":10712.085,"end":10727.262,"text":"沒有問到而已沒有問到好像我沒有提到只是沒有登出來好像我沒有提到就是有提到對 但是我看到有一些你也會把它主動提起來那我們想就是說如果從你口中說出來應該是現在覺得非常重視的因為我們這個提過好幾次所以記者可能認為說未來我想這個方向"},{"start":10727.842,"end":10742.677,"text":"我們還是要加強好不好再來我想說我們再來談一下我們今天談到很多國家能源發展還有淨零轉型院長您也是國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人我們來討論一件事情也就是說"},{"start":10743.197,"end":10762.735,"text":"在今年的我們看到是在這個1月23號公布的國家減碳新目標的草案當中相較於基準年就2005我們的目標是2032年要減量這個32%左右然後呢2035年要減量38%那但是您知道第一階段的2020年的目標是要減碳多少嗎"},{"start":10765.177,"end":10787.373,"text":"2020的我忘記2020要減多少2%對但是我們做到了嗎沒有你都不知道要減多少都知道沒有做到我知道說我們沒有達成差一點2%但我們只做到1.89那在2025年的時候我們的目標是要這個能夠減10%但是我們去看2021年我們沒有減反而增加了2.22%2023年的時候我們反而增加了10.39%"},{"start":10792.677,"end":10810.471,"text":"那你要怎麼樣在第二階段的2025年能夠達到這個減10%的一個這個基準這個我真的很懷疑啦所以我們按照這個數據看起來我們是這個叫做碳排量不減反增而且呢我們想要這個目標做出來越減越多那這個怎麼會是這樣能不能說明一下"},{"start":10811.945,"end":10830.779,"text":"這部分因為不是眾議院的全責範圍我們只是從科技的角度看怎麼樣幫忙國家減碳我們不設定減碳的目標那我們盡量能夠做多少做多少最後請教一下這個減碳越減越多您知道台灣前十大碳盤試驗是什麼嗎"},{"start":10835.931,"end":10860.324,"text":"從供給量來講台灣的碳排有50%是來自發電來我跟您提好了前十大的碳排七個發電廠兩個鋼鐵一個石化所以院長你曾經以多次以科學家的身份說台灣不能全依賴綠能但也不能全依賴核能這個淨零不能排除任何一種能源但事實上我們的發電如果沒有辦法轉型為低碳或者綠能是很難達到這個淨零碳排的你認為是嗎"},{"start":10861.804,"end":10877.653,"text":"對是的好所以我想去年我們質詢了去碳燃氣的技術之外那中研院正在發展這個高效能的太陽能板來增加原有的發電量希望達到50%那我想請教一下那我們這個高效太陽能板什麼時候可以研製出來來進行計轉委員在這裡"},{"start":10882.679,"end":10895.556,"text":"今天就有啊昨天出來的30%的高效太陽板全部都是國內自研自製連設備都是國內製的真的很棒啊非常好我們詳細請理事長主任來說明一下"},{"start":10897.619,"end":10915.219,"text":"我是關鍵中心主任李超煌 那麼目前這個技術我們在3月26號有開了一個技術說明會那麼國內主要的太陽能廠商 相關的廠商也都有派代表來參加那麼目前已經有兩家這個相當大的大廠有表示意願要加入這個研發聯盟"},{"start":10916.681,"end":10940.937,"text":"好那最後一個問題我就問院長一句話我們剛剛在講說既然我們都研發出來了那你有沒有信心在你的目標2032年跟2035年能達到減碳32%跟38%的目標這方面我沒有仔細來估算因為我們不是全責單位所以至於實際減碳多少這不是中央醫院的全責所以很抱歉這方面我沒有"},{"start":10941.277,"end":10957.807,"text":"但是我們希望各部會我們還是要橫向聯繫那不是說這個不是我的那我覺得大家橫向聯繫才有辦法達到目標好不好好謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員院長請回我們接下來請范雲委員謝謝莊委有請院長好有請廖院長"},{"start":10973.247,"end":10986.454,"text":"院長早安首先肯定我們院長在預算期間就是努力的為中研院預算被動山發聲我想就是您可以看到其實我們全國人民是非常支持"},{"start":10986.954,"end":11002.621,"text":"中研院的那只是很不幸在這個過程中帶領煽動預算的居然是我們中研院出身的民眾黨的黃國昌立委那當時我個人也非常的努力就是為中研院發聲因為他顯然當時不知道他的統山就把中研院包進去然後還說他沒有針對中研院那我想這個過程非常的遺憾"},{"start":11012.265,"end":11025.193,"text":"當然就是我之前還大概了解一下中研院被煽動的情況剛剛很多委員都講過就不再重複我們翁教授也在場希望今天法律所也可以好好的講一下他的煽動到底對法律所有怎麼樣的影響非常遺憾都是學界同仁帶領煽動中研院的預算"},{"start":11033.999,"end":11039.065,"text":"那今天呢 除了可以了解我蠻認同剛剛我們趙薇講的就是藍百緯就是說主動殺然後後來又主動說你們趕快來解凍喔因為每個解凍報告 中英如果寫不好到時候也會被修理嘛"},{"start":11049.597,"end":11075.723,"text":"本來就是需要時間而且我相信眾議院的嚴謹程度絕對不會就是隨便回應的因為每一個委員的要求不一樣那這部分我非常認同剛剛的召委的回應那教文委員沒有辦法在自己的黨團去護衛自己的預算那最後來這邊說教文都是不分黨派支持我覺得從民眾角度來看無法理解就是說今天他們的說辭我今天想要針對"},{"start":11077.083,"end":11083.212,"text":"我的預算案裡面也有相關的要求就是大型學術會議應該要落實無障礙配套這個措施那我想院長要關切的議題很多那這題特別希望院長要特別的關心那為什麼我這樣講"},{"start":11093.286,"end":11109.047,"text":"其實我過去也不夠了解這個大型會議到底無障礙要做哪些會以為說就是空間無障礙我去年代表民進黨去參加美國民主黨的全國代表大會上"},{"start":11109.968,"end":11122.777,"text":"就看到現在一個大型會議的無障礙以他參與的人數的部分也讓院長您了解他真的做得非常的細緻從你落地搭飛機到場就是輪椅族嬰兒車的優先然後全程都有無障礙的接駁巴士現場機場甚至還有輪椅維修服務如果在旅行的過程中輪椅出事的話那更不用講就是手語翻譯我們坐在那兒在哪個角度都看得到"},{"start":11138.589,"end":11153.287,"text":"即時的字幕現在也因為有那個AI也變得非常的容易甚至還有感官配套提供給感官敏感者包含降噪耳機還會提醒你不要用強烈的香水因為有一些感官敏感者"},{"start":11153.968,"end":11176.505,"text":"那這些部分呢我覺得非常的重要那我也要特別提一下那大家知道就是民進黨之前我們不分區的候選人陳俊翰律師他的研究就是國際人權身心障礙政策那他過世前其實就在中研院的法律所擔任博士後研究員"},{"start":11177.305,"end":11193.324,"text":"那我們可以想像他今天在中研院法律所如果待得更久的話他要參加國際會議的時候中研院的國際會議有沒有提供就是讓他能夠跟其他人一樣平等參與的那我們知道他的母親"},{"start":11194.965,"end":11201.809,"text":"謝繼珍女士提供了她非常多超越政府補助的個人的協助可是如果陳俊漢律師還在的話他想要參與台時所的研究國際會議法律所的國際會議"},{"start":11209.873,"end":11233.808,"text":"那他有沒有辦法得到一個平等的參與權那這是我想用這個部分來請命那我請辦公室研究了一下我們發現英美大學澳洲學術計畫那更不用講聯合國都有無障礙會遇指南非常的重視身心障礙像我們陳俊翰律師那還有包含懷孕者親子高敏感等多元的面向"},{"start":11234.528,"end":11262.743,"text":"那這部分其實在網路上稍微查一下都可以看到非常完整的會議指南所以我有一個就是預算的相關的部分我這邊再舉例來講那它裡面包含就是無障礙廁所補給乳室那這補給乳室其實中研院早就我們過去婦女團就要求就已經有做到了優先車位還有提供電子文件大字幕手語翻譯那當然就是托育的服務等等也會考量"},{"start":11264.164,"end":11285.256,"text":"交通城鄉差距盡可能的提供接駁或者是線上會議等所以你可以看到他是鼓勵更多人都能夠平等的參與學術的活動那我今天想問就是說院長您覺得中研院作為國家級的研究機構是否應該加強無障礙會議的基本規範呢是"},{"start":11288.308,"end":11314.986,"text":"您很認同是喔那再來我就想跟您對話一下就是我之前提出的預算案那中雲有給我一個初步的回應說你們已經做到的部分第一個你們有喊轉衛福部的無障礙會議指示指引給轄下單位就是在座的各位的各所所長應該都有看到這個公文喔那你們說有部分大型會議有調查並提供無障礙服務"},{"start":11316.147,"end":11326.331,"text":"我覺得這是一個很好的開始那之前我的預算案就是你們有做到這個部分可是我今天想再往前走一步因為我剛以陳俊翰律師為例他不會只參加不分大型會議是應該要以院的層級落實無障礙的措施針對不同規模的會議訂定一個分級的標準"},{"start":11339.836,"end":11353.928,"text":"譬如說如果人很少的會議那也許是調查與會者基本的需求等等那為什麼我對中研院有這個要求因為我覺得中研院有這麼多的人才如果你們能做出來其實其他的大學甚至國科會他才能夠跟你們學習"},{"start":11357.071,"end":11378.699,"text":"所以今天因為時間剩下的不多所以今天想請院長能不能夠參考國外的案例我剛剛講的是請我們辦公室的團隊研究的那已經有這麼多的會議指標了訂定符合國際標準的無障礙和共融會議的辦理原則然後開始試辦呢我們朝這方向努力"},{"start":11383.151,"end":11410.431,"text":"好 朝這方向努力那院長您覺得大概多少的時間能夠就是了解然後訂出然後開始試辦呢了解跟訂出比較容易那真正開始試辦那可能要看這個實際的經費允許狀況那跟實際的需求所以這方面我們會了解之後才開始做"},{"start":11410.931,"end":11438.848,"text":"那了解大概需要多少時間呢譬如說就給我一個初步報告的部分先就了解然後試辦的話可以晚一點沒關係總務處處長報告應該是一個月內就可以把它了解然後給一個初步的說明給委員那就希望是總務處這個事情不應該再丟給各所去做因為總務處應該就有這個研究能力因為我認識中研院很多學者他們會覺得我的質詢就增加了他們的工作量我們會同意訂定以後讓各個單位他們參與意見"},{"start":11440.729,"end":11463.504,"text":"好那這樣非常好我相信那個總務處有這個研究能力那試辦的部分是不是之後也一併給我一個報告因為等到你們知道那個原則之後應該就知道比如說我是一年內還是甚至要兩年內才能開始試辦好不好我們是要給你們合理的那我相信你們做得到的話可以帶領我們全國的各級學術會議未來到其他型的會議都能夠做到那陳俊翰律師"},{"start":11464.324,"end":11477.332,"text":"那他走的時候 法律所還特別發聲明 感念他的貢獻那我相信 這個貢獻 不會只是感念應該要落實在具體的政策跟作為中 好嗎好 謝謝好 那謝謝院長好 謝謝范雲委員院長請回我們接下來請翁曉琳委員 時間四分鐘"},{"start":11492.779,"end":11493.339,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11516.129,"end":11535.052,"text":"更好那麼雖然說當然他已經在我們國內的法研所的法律領域裡面表現得非常傑出但是我還是希望能夠更上一層樓不過就是從院長您今天的這個簡報裡面我還是沒有看到在人文組作業研究成果裡面有哪一個是屬於法律所的"},{"start":11535.452,"end":11535.592,"text":"主凡不及備載"},{"start":11558.328,"end":11561.491,"text":"我們就10分鐘可以報告我們有33個所中心 假如一個一個報的話我們一個所大概只能報10秒鐘"},{"start":11575.425,"end":11597.617,"text":"是了解就像是我咨询只有四分钟所以我真的没有办法好好的让这个法研所来说一下它的重要研究成果是的我有后来有看到只是说在院长您的简报里面似乎就没有特别提到法研所好那接下来我想要请教院长您预计未来十年我们中研院可能会培育出一个诺贝尔奖得主吗"},{"start":11599.286,"end":11618.437,"text":"我們希望說不要以任何特殊的獎項來當個目標我們做學術研究應該以創造知識貢獻社會為目標而不是以拿任何獎項為目標否則的話我們會過得很辛苦"},{"start":11618.837,"end":11645.474,"text":"是的 我非常同意这个院长您的看法但是您知道吗我们现在国内学界设置了多少奖项对 这个部分的话或许中研院之后也可以好好检讨需不需要用奖项来作为比如说经历薪资啦各方面的奖补助的一个标准那接下来我想请问一下这个院长您知道这个英国有个Nature这个期刊吧是的英国Nature期刊的公信力为何嗯"},{"start":11648.138,"end":11671.381,"text":"期刊看看哪一部分的公信力在自然科學領域裡面呢在這個他發表文章都相當有影響力那他有一些被人家詬病的地方但是他也有他的貢獻所以每一個方向並不是說百分之百他就是完全是是大家一致公認但是也是確實是相當好的一個期刊"},{"start":11671.701,"end":11694.227,"text":"好的 那么我要讲就是说英国的Nature期刊它公布的自然指数就是Nature Index其实它就全球的整体研究学术机构的排名那我们看到一个趋势这是本席所做的一些小小的study从2013年到2024年我们可以看到中研院的整体的排名从2013年的136名一直下滑到2024年的340亿名"},{"start":11698.968,"end":11726.329,"text":"這是大家詬病的地方因為Nature Index它一個很特殊的計算方法一篇paper假如有三個單位掛名就除以3一個單位掛名就除以1中文院近年來就鼓勵跟大學合作特別是我們的研究生每一個都是大學所以幾乎每一篇paper至少有中文院跟一個大學所以我們至少我們的paper的數量就被除以2除以3甚至除以4"},{"start":11727.189,"end":11736.353,"text":"你這種方式除此之外這個Nature Index又沒有把人文放進去是謝謝院長因為我已經沒有時間了對我想就是說基本上您會認為說就是Nature Index它所做的這個統計數據基本上並不是很符合我們中研院這邊的這個發表的情況那麼但是我要講一個事實就是說您看看我們政府給中研院的預算從2018年到2024年是算是一個非常就是每年提高"},{"start":11757.061,"end":11766.714,"text":"而且它這個成長的比例非常之高我的意思就是說其實中研院每年拿的預算大概就平均差不多130億到150億左右可是在Nature Index的排名數據呢卻是逐步的下滑"},{"start":11772.922,"end":11793.098,"text":"雖然說是中研院或是其他國內大學可能有很多維持對於這個Nature Index所做的排名統計不是認為很客觀但是它就是一個事實在全球的排名裡面來看我們可以知道它的確是一個問題那麼我接下來要講的就是說我不認為它是一個問題我認為它只是一個指標我們不應該跟著一個商業機構的一個指標來後面進行"},{"start":11797.281,"end":11799.282,"text":"如果這樣的話其實我建議中研院幹隊退出這個排名根本就不用去參與這個排名不是我們自己參加我們沒有參加可是說實在話這個其實也是有點這個我認為是太駝鳥了對不對我們還是要去面對這個全世界的排名我們接下來看一下這個"},{"start":11817.551,"end":11844.79,"text":"我们知道其实中研院在2013年的时候当时的排名都还有大概140几名130几名那么之后是逐年下滑我现在拿中研院跟中国科学院香港城市大学跟广州晋南大学这个是广州晋南大学大家知道这个是最近我们教育部还有我们行政院宣告不可以跟广州晋南大学去"},{"start":11845.931,"end":11847.992,"text":"就不承認廣州近南大學的學歷可是看看廣州近南大學它在2017年當時的排名是418名到了2024年它的排名已經躍升為130名那麼我們的中研院"},{"start":11861.858,"end":11884.13,"text":"中研院在2017年的時候當時的排名應該是211名到了2024年排名下跌到341名更不用說我們今天跟中國科學院來比中國科學院從2013年一直到現在還始終都是No.1那我要講就是說他們的機會比我們大多少他們人數比我們大多少他們的社會上國家的支持比我們大多少"},{"start":11885.411,"end":11907.586,"text":"我們現在是要馬而跑 又要馬而不吃草 這不可能達成的事情那我們再來看看中研院跟國內大學的排名中研院可以跟台大比吧 中研院拿的預算跟台大是差不多的我們剛才講過 中研院的所有paper都要被除以二除以三而且我們人數少 而且我們的人文科學沒有放在裡面"},{"start":11908.286,"end":11924.254,"text":"中研院拿的預算的確是相當於台大比太多的大學的預算都拿的多今天我其實只是想要呈現一個事實就是說中研院我認為中研院就是應該要虛心檢討看有沒有熱情在改進的空間我們看看中研院跟台大的排名就知道不好意思我這邊數字有點錯誤"},{"start":11931.477,"end":11957.564,"text":"事實上2013年的時候中研院的排名是136然後台大是102你可以看到這次當然整體來講是下滑但是中研院的表現還是沒有台大好我要講的一個事實就是中研院以你們的規模你們的人數你們的經費來講它其實真的是全台灣拿的研究經費最多的單位但是跟其他的大學相比"},{"start":11959.128,"end":11982.234,"text":"事實上你們的表現沒有特別好所以我認為其實在各個領域裡面還有進步的空間我們是有進步的空間但請委員了解你從不同的鄰近看可以看到不同的長相所以中文院確實是有可以虛心檢討的地方我們確實是應該做得更好但是我想"},{"start":11982.734,"end":12005.163,"text":"我們不能用任何一個這個數字指標來否定說中央醫院這幾年的進步我們有更需要的地方你說中央醫院你的排名有上升的時候你就會說我認為說這個NATURE INDEX的這個數字基本上是可信的它基本上它的指標是正確的但是因為我們看到這個趨勢是逐漸下滑然後這時候院長又說這個指標不可信不好意思 超時太久了"},{"start":12005.723,"end":12031.389,"text":"可不可以会后请院长在书面报告给您好不好不好意思对我想在这边话就是最后我还是说我的看法我对中研院是爱之深则之切我希望院长能够跟你们同仁好好的再去思考怎么样能够提升中研院的研究能量我想所有所长都在这边都听到了谢谢大家都会努力还有就是其他的自家科学领域也是一样的谢谢"},{"start":12034.449,"end":12040.273,"text":"謝謝 謝謝謝謝翁小玲委員 院長請回好 我們接下來請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝召委 有請院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":12058.779,"end":12083.1,"text":"好 院長好院長 國科會吳承文主委說過台灣經濟實力已經在世界20左右那可是幾十年的努力之下來連一個諾貝爾獎都沒有實在是很丟臉 這他說的那日本於1996年通過了科學技術基本法成立了科學技術委員會透過了保障科研的預算等方式那我們看到他們如此之重視"},{"start":12083.76,"end":12109.379,"text":"那提高了日本的科學技術水準2001年修訂通過第二版的科學技術基本法明確指出50年要拿下30個諾貝爾獎那目前呢日本已經有29位諾貝爾獎得主其中有一位是團體的那台灣呢台灣土生土長唯一目前拿過諾貝爾獎是1986年的李遠哲我們前院長那最靠近最靠近諾貝爾獎的是2022年翁啟惠前院長"},{"start":12112.381,"end":12126.935,"text":"那我想這兩位都來自中研院所以我想中研院讓我們有所期待那也希望在這樣的一個部分上院長你覺得提升一國的科研能力關鍵在於哪裡是政府的投資還不夠多嗎還需要更大量的預算嗎"},{"start":12127.355,"end":12148.306,"text":"需要有很好的土壤很好的環境這個科研環境的創造才能夠吸引人才才能讓人才在無憂無慮的環境之下發揮他的創造力那希望能夠大家能夠給予支持給予鼓勵那跟這個國際一起競爭那我們要看到的是研究人員實際的貢獻對社會對學術方面的貢獻而不是單靠他的"},{"start":12154.009,"end":12177.119,"text":"功成名就之後才說給他拍手因為他得諾貝爾獎我們在努力的過程當中我們要給予肯定給予支持給予鼓勵給予經費上的最大彈性當然給予支持上我們當然都希望能夠給予一些支持所以你的說法就是不要只是得獎那你也否認了就是吳承文主委所說的連一個諾貝爾獎得主都沒有實在很丟臉這樣的說法你不一定認同"},{"start":12177.939,"end":12206.502,"text":"但是我想跟大家講是說那我想這個我們當然很希望說台灣有很多拿到很多世界第一拿到很多諾貝爾獎我們拿到世界冠軍這個也冠軍當然我們相信中研院現在所有的研究一定是希望社會能夠有所進步來幫忙做一些相關的研究我們都能夠知道但我們也希望讓世界看到台灣那目前我們現在最重要的問題是說我們現在一路走來台灣有很多的措施很多的政策頂大計畫"},{"start":12207.543,"end":12214.45,"text":"高教生跟玉山計畫等等會不會跟這些計畫的資源去過度的分散你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":12217.179,"end":12245.008,"text":"這個很多問題那最主要是我們這個在學研界這個每一個人的方向目標沒有定得很清楚這是最近一直在講的不可能在座任何人把目標定在得諾貝爾獎至少這個人文學者就不能拿所以我們要把目標定清楚我們為什麼要做研究為什麼這個研究重要能夠闡述得清楚爭取立法院的同意"},{"start":12245.828,"end":12272.217,"text":"支持立法院也應該考量學術研究的特殊狀況那把跟政治性的跟一般機關的預算做分開的審查我們要的不僅是更多的資源我們要的是資源的彈性運用我們必須知道說我們眾院確實是拿了很多的資源但是不能用不好用是因為他之間沒有辦法留用很多譬如說設備費不能留用"},{"start":12273.777,"end":12289.777,"text":"那這個用人費不能留用等等的那加上這個最近有一些其他的限制這樣子我想跟你請教你剛剛有提到一些建議啦沒關係我都聽到如果能夠給予協助我們當然不讓我們都願意後續再有幫忙"},{"start":12292.861,"end":12310.525,"text":"但是學術上的一個建議呢是不是你也能夠給一些大家更多的一些建議我們看到日本有良好的科學科研環境那科學研究人員能在自己的計畫和支配研究工作也不會因為一段時間內沒有研究成果而影響評價但台灣好像跟日本不太一樣"},{"start":12310.885,"end":12333.728,"text":"是的我最近在大學校長會議給過一個演講我事後把演講的講稿提供給委員我們都希望能夠給科研人員有更多的一些彈性給予更多的空間這個平台能夠做好大環境做好是你剛剛第一句話沒錯對不對所以我們一起來努力我們提出了這樣子的問題我們看到了這樣的問題所以今天提出也會提出就代表要支持"},{"start":12335.25,"end":12363.388,"text":"會閒貨才會買貨嘛對不對好那中研院去年呢10月舉辦了一年一度的院區開放主題演說是未來世代的必修課能源與AI科技對吧還記得當時院長免利同學AI目前限制正式每一個人的一個機會希望未來世代勇於想像AI無法達成的事情將問題以及挑戰化為契機在去年7月中研院與AI辦公室要推動這一個"},{"start":12364.409,"end":12381.756,"text":"AI4OAS可不可以簡單介紹一下這是什麼這是我們希望的全院OASAS代表中央研究院的英文簡稱所以AI4OAS意思是說我們希望全院的人不論是你是研究人員你是研究助理或是行政人員大家都要"},{"start":12382.476,"end":12398.081,"text":"擁抱AI帶給我們的新契機大家都要適度的了解AI你或許沒辦法成為不應該期待你成為AI的專家但是你應該能夠用最新的AI技術來在你的研究上在你的行政上幫助你的日常業務"},{"start":12399.401,"end":12423.877,"text":"這樣子我講中研院也協力國科會推動深層式的AI這個Tide相信院長也都知道去年獲得諾貝爾物理學獎的一個辛頓教授研究人工智慧領域他在2023年離開Google一直在致力於談論急於目前推出深層式人工智慧產品的一個危險請問我們所推動的深層式AI是否有辛頓教授所說的一個風險"},{"start":12424.998,"end":12438.734,"text":"因為當然這個AI當然免不了被誤用的話絕對是有風險所以我們一方面要極力開發另一方面我們要極力思考這它對人類文明對社會安定所造成的一個風險"},{"start":12439.735,"end":12459.308,"text":"那院長中研院是否可以針對深圳市AI所進行可能性的一個問題研究盤整並且具體的建議到教育部目前的中小學數位教學指引的3.0以及校長數位學習的領導指引畢竟教育部"},{"start":12459.588,"end":12481.571,"text":"不是所謂的研究機構AI目前科技是日新月異我們也希望在這個前面第一線的研究單位你們最了解能夠在這個跨部會上給予合作給予協助給予建議這個部分可以嗎我們協助給予建議的這是可以我不確定說眾議院的專家有在您講這方面是有特別的研究"},{"start":12483.012,"end":12499.518,"text":"因為我想這個AI有相關的一些人工智慧的產品所帶來的一些風險那剛剛你說不免俗有可能那在這個研究上如果有找到一些問題對於教育部中小學的數位教學指引3.0給予一個建議我覺得這個部分應該是你們做得到的"},{"start":12500.018,"end":12524.898,"text":"因為你們畢竟是高位在看這件事情這個我想後面也有一些長官在點頭那應該是可以認同的我們不是找麻煩只是希望能夠讓這個東西更好謝謝委員提醒再來我想院長我很關心勞動權益的一個議題所以在去年預算審查的時候特別提出來政治所的徵才違法希望中委員要注意那你有掌握到嗎請政治所所長"},{"start":12527.031,"end":12536.33,"text":"我先請問一下 院長回去有盤點所有的單位徵才資訊或工作相關的規定嗎有沒有發現其他問題有 這請人事回答"},{"start":12537.831,"end":12563.984,"text":"委員好 人事室主任周培芳是有發現問題嗎我們院裡面非常重視勞基法的相關規範也很重視勞動權益我先問一下兩位請問這一份中央研究院工讀生僱用管理規定PTT這裡分別掛在中研院的網站跟中研院的總務處網站上請問這一份還有沒有在使用應該掛著應該還有在使用吧"},{"start":12571.136,"end":12579.189,"text":"有沒有這個綜藝院還有在徵公讀生喔在人文社會科學聯合圖書館"},{"start":12581.533,"end":12605.687,"text":"我想應該是有在使用了是的是的 對吧我們來講一下工讀生的僱用契約書第三項工作時間的第三點甲方如應經費受限請求乙方延長工時服務時乙方同意以補休假來做方式的處理不令知己延長工時的酬金院長你覺得這句話有沒有問題有問題嗎"},{"start":12611.67,"end":12611.811,"text":"人事處"},{"start":12615.747,"end":12641.854,"text":"我們原則上可以跟就是工讀生要求補就是協商要補休但是補休如果沒有協商是有討論的空間沒有補休完的話還是會給加班費但是在這一句上我覺得在用字譴責上我要先講院長這句話有問題因為加班費加班時加班費的請求權還沒有發生怎麼可以先要求要有拋棄"},{"start":12643.354,"end":12653.805,"text":"這一句話我覺得在實務上應該加完班後雇主才會去跟員工談能不能換補休這個既然委員提到務實上我們就談務實"},{"start":12655.546,"end":12679.873,"text":"每一個研究員都知道說自己手上經費有多少加班費付不出來的時候就必須要能夠控制說有多少人升級加班因為你們希望控制預算的使用並不會超支甚至付不出來但是我建議要修正因為討論的空間乾脆這一條就不要寫你們再去做導資這個部分的協商研究一下看說這怎麼做比較好"},{"start":12680.373,"end":12698.563,"text":"第二 如果工讀生僱用契約書要修正的話在第四項休假提及的《性別工作平等法》這部法律在2023年7月改為《性別平等工作法》建議一併修正啦沒事沒事不要說我們是雞蛋挑骨頭啦只是看到了這個問題順帶提到啦"},{"start":12701.124,"end":12720.797,"text":"那再來在第六項職業災害及普通傷害的一個補助應該要加上2021年制定的勞工職業災害保險及保護法最後中研院整個中央研究院工讀生雇用管理規定這份檔案在中研院網站跟中研院的總務處網站上掛的內容不一樣"},{"start":12721.778,"end":12745.331,"text":"院長你看一下這兩份最後修正的日期都是中華民國102年7月26日總務置地1020505343號修正也提及本規定經院長核定後執行的修正時異同但是為什麼同一個修正日期的檔案在工作時間的規定上是有不一樣的寫法"},{"start":12745.911,"end":12765.747,"text":"中研院的官網入口乙方工作時間每日不超過8小時每兩週不超過84小時但是在中研院的總務處網站檔案乙方正常工作的時間每日不超過8小時每週不超過40小時我想這兩個說法寫法都不一樣"},{"start":12767.632,"end":12789.993,"text":"這兩個寫法都沒問題但是呢到底哪一個才是正確的檔案我不太懂工作時從雙週的84小時變成單週的40小時是民國105年才開始實施的而中研院這樣子的工作工讀生的雇用管理規定呢最新的修正是在民國102年我想自己偷改不用報院長核定"},{"start":12792.654,"end":12815.416,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒跟提示這部分我們會一併檢討讓它有一致所以我所找出的問題是事實吧對不對是我們會回來檢討是不是應該馬上更正是的我想剛剛還是回到了我們希望不管是未來的工途生科研的環境那整個勞動的一個產業甚至這個環境都能夠有所提升我想這些細節今天沒有責難"},{"start":12817.217,"end":12824.843,"text":"我們都是希望讓整個環境更好只是提出到我所看到的一個問題在研究的過程發現的這些問題希望你們修正院長可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝院長請回謝謝羅廷偉委員"},{"start":12833.507,"end":12857.603,"text":"好 我們再來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請張家俊委員張家俊張家俊委員不在我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請鄭振淺鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在我們請林德福林德福林德福委員不在我們請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在"},{"start":12862.626,"end":12888.108,"text":"我們今天登記質詢均已發言完畢關於今天會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分也請相關機關盡速書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":12897.465,"end":12897.625,"text":"這個位置"},{"start":12920.942,"end":12922.022,"text":"謝謝您的收看"}]}},{"id":"16581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16581","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eadf824e3382b7a8d095600ace5e54deaf4af80a8cb003b9ba06e7373903de99a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會「公寓大廈管理條例30週年系列公聽會（一）：改善公寓大廈管理，政府應該做些什麼？」公聽會","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-10T08:32:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T12:00:00+08:00","duration":12478,"影片長度":"03:27:58","委員發言時間":"08:32:02 - 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優化管理作為等等其實有非常非常多相關的議題值得大家進一步的討論我想公益大廈管理條例30週年也該到了徹底調整的時候"},{"start":2036.807,"end":2064.355,"text":"那我們都希望透過公聽會的召開聽取各位學者專家的意見並且在會議的過程中詳時記錄列入立法院公報作為公立大廈管理條例未來在修法時候的重要參考好那我們首先先介紹專家學者出席委員跟政府代表好首先是我們台灣公立大廈管理顧問協會饒樂理事長"},{"start":2070.578,"end":2092.465,"text":"國立陽明交通大學建築研究所 柯桂聖助理教授福倫大學法律學系 黃志堅助理教授台北市不動產經營管理協會 林世俊理事長台灣物業優化經濟協會 張家榮理事長"},{"start":2098.943,"end":2126.827,"text":"台中市物業管理協會黃振德理事長中華民國地震式工會全國聯合會林旺根榮譽理事長中華民國工業大廈管理維護商業同業工會全國聯合會高敏靜理事長台北市工業大廈管理維護商業同業工會潘瑞拼理事長"},{"start":2130.117,"end":2157.318,"text":"以及社團法人台北市居住榮譽發展協會曾庭庭理事長政府機關的部分我們今天內政部由董建宏政務次長代表出席以及國土管理署徐彥鑫副署長我們補充介紹一下這個永信法律事務所沈巧元律師"},{"start":2160.814,"end":2188.234,"text":"好 那今天我們供應會的程序如下第一我們先請部會簡單的針對供應大廈管理條例的一些狀況做簡單的報告之後再請各位學者專家來發言我們依初期的簽到順序為原則每一位學者專家發言時間為8分鐘如果本院的委員要發言請到我們主席台我的本席的右手邊來做登記與兩位學者專家發言後安排一位立法委員發言每位委員發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":2189.835,"end":2214.943,"text":"那我們在第一輪發言完之後同意由與會的機關代表再次進行說明那也跟大家報告這個發言台的正前方的燈號是我們的倒數計時大家可以看到發言時間結束前一分鐘我們會按鈴一聲提醒發言時間結束就會按鈴兩聲請大家把握時間好現在我們就進行部會報告的部分我們請內政部董事長建宏來進行報告"},{"start":2223.734,"end":2248.728,"text":"主席各位委員各位學者專家各位女士先生大家好首先對於各位委員對於內政部公益大廈管理業務推動的關注跟指導我們表示感謝本貴委會今天召開公益大廈管理條例30週年系列公聽會第一個部分改善公益大廈管理政府應該做什麼本部應要列席報告深感榮幸那麼"},{"start":2249.648,"end":2275.21,"text":"公益大廈管理條例呢從民國84年6月28日實施以來呢歷經了92年的修正權文94年修訂徵議條署規定以及102年因應兒童墜樓及受託人的爭議105年考量高齡住戶與公共基金的管理111年為強化公共安全等需求我們不斷地做適時的滾動的修正相關的條文"},{"start":2275.891,"end":2292.666,"text":"所以在本條例實施屆三十年的過程裡面呢事實上內政部也因應以及配合大院的相關的一些意見我們因應社會的需求其實都不斷的在做一些管理跟討論那目前也著手去研議相關有關寵物以及充電裝蒸汽的議題"},{"start":2294.788,"end":2313.641,"text":"另外根據我們目前的統計113年6月底全國共報被成立了58,117個社區管理組織為了協助公益大廈管理維護工作全國也培訓了大概11萬餘的各類管理服務人員以及成立了1000多餘家的管理維護公司"},{"start":2314.902,"end":2337.146,"text":"條例的本身的重點其實在整個的社區的自主還是要再一次強調公益大廈管理條例的重點是希望將整個公益大廈的管理的權責回歸到民間回歸到住戶由大家各自的自主社區的自主管理符合一方面彰顯台灣的民主精神一方面也透過社區自主的管理跟自治的精神讓相關的義務規定能夠明確"},{"start":2340.467,"end":2364.764,"text":"那麼目前涉及住戶之間的權利除了法律已有規定之外那也以規約或者是區分所有權人的會議方式決議方式來規範那但是呢公益大廈管理常常因為住戶之間的認知不同互信程度不足導致許多的糾紛那麼即使已經有安排管理服務人員予以協助有時候能難以全面解決相關的糾紛所以還是仰賴地方政府組織公益大廈爭議條例委員會處理公益大廈爭議事件"},{"start":2368.51,"end":2387.933,"text":"那麼稍後我們會就今日工經會所要討論的議題做一個逐步的說明首先針對政府應該如何預防或者是紓緩工業大廈所面對的經費不足的問題那麼本部認為說在條例裡面其實有規範設置公積金那麼面對重大的修繕成本的上升以及欠繳的問題"},{"start":2389.274,"end":2408.031,"text":"讓面對重大支出的時候常常陷入經費不足的狀況的時候那麼住戶怎麼樣子增加對公共基金或提撥比例通常都會有很多的爭議或者是共識難以形成再加上建物隨時間老化所需要的修繕規模的擴大也加重了社區的負擔最終影響了居住的品質以及危及安全"},{"start":2408.925,"end":2431.618,"text":"所以在政府的管理角色上面我們除了在第18條規定啟造人繳交公共基金由地方主管機關的公庫代收之外在公益大廈成立管理組織之後必須要依法第57條的規定向地方主管機關報備由公庫代撥支付並且要求啟造人將公益大廈共用部分的設施及維護手冊以及廠商資料的移交管理組織"},{"start":2432.719,"end":2446.707,"text":"那以利後續的工藝大廈相關的設施的生命週期的管理跟維護降低後續管理維護的成本以及修繕的費用另外藉由公立飯店員的培訓以及課程的加入那麼提升從業人員對社區設備的一些認識協助社區設備的一些管理"},{"start":2449.429,"end":2468.439,"text":"那在公部門的部分當然我們就會透過第十條的方式來讓地方政府可以給予社區一些補助那透過這樣的方式來形塑整個更好的環境那我們也會引導整個公益大廈改善他的財務體質那麼規定我們的管理組織要定期公告公共基金的收支以及保管運用狀況"},{"start":2469.52,"end":2492.511,"text":"那對於在解職離職的管委會或者在改組過程裡面一定要把相關的資訊做完整的說明跟移交那保障利害相關人的閱覽以及相關資料閱讀的權利確保財務的透明化也讓住戶的了解完整所以我們希望透過這樣的方式資訊透明化的狀況讓大家對於整個財務的管理跟整個基金的運作都比較透明健全"},{"start":2493.271,"end":2509.213,"text":"那至於怎麼樣降低區分權人的會議的那麼區分權人最常建議的就是說包括那個非召集人的召集會議的權益那社區特定人士收集會議出席資料那出席會議委託書那重新召集會議門檻降低的公平性等等的問題"},{"start":2510.373,"end":2526.779,"text":"那麼所以我們希望能夠提升那個意識的品質那降低正義所以我們首先會提升整個管理服務人員的本職學能透過這些好管理服務人員的培訓回訓的課程讓大家知道開會的程序跟整個程序的一些"},{"start":2527.906,"end":2548.494,"text":"應有的具備的知識但同時我們也會在我們國土署的網站上面對於所有的管理自治的QA做一個明確的說明提供社區作為一個會議的參考那更重要的事情是我們已經要求地方設立公益大廈爭議事件調解委員會希望透過調解委員會的方式讓相關的爭議有一個好的處理的機制那也保障住戶的權利"},{"start":2550.387,"end":2569.955,"text":"那麼面對公寓大廈管理委員會排除社區內的糾紛呢因為公寓大廈它是採用立體式的集中式的一種居住型態所以呢住戶其實彼此之間的生活習慣價值觀點可能很多有些差異那住戶之間的糾紛就會常常有一些好發生那管委會有時候呢他站在第一線卻沒有公權力"},{"start":2570.795,"end":2593.201,"text":"所以我們目前相關的制止程序包括條例的第八條第三項第九條第四項第十五條第二項及第十六條第五項等我們會希望說透過這些相關法令的運作呢那麼讓整個區權會它基於社區自治的狀況呢透過規約或者是區權會所制定的管理辦法來共同遵守"},{"start":2593.661,"end":2621.618,"text":"那透過這樣的一個共同遵守包括說讓這些規約能夠明確在跟地方機關機關有一些互動包括我們的那個協調會的方式那麼讓公權力有一個協助的角色所以我還是要再次強調基本上公益大廈管理條例的重點是社區自治是地方自治透過社區自治的原則那我們公權力在適時的可以輔助那透過公益大廈管理委員會協助解決社區內的糾紛事件"},{"start":2623.659,"end":2631.773,"text":"我們透過設立工藝大廈爭議事件調除委員會透過這樣的方式地方政府也扮演一定的角色協助我們的社區自治事項"},{"start":2632.847,"end":2655.109,"text":"那麼對於政府應該如何另選相關的合作廠商呢我們在整個第四章裡面其實有規定服務人專章這個服務人專章裡面授權公益大廈服務人他們怎麼樣去找到相關的公司的資格以及受委託建物管理的範圍內容那協助公益大廈管理委員會執行該大廈的一個管理業務"},{"start":2656.03,"end":2672.058,"text":"那怎麼樣找到合適的那個我們國土署目前已經透過證照的管理的方式相關的符合的人員以及相關的公司的資料在公布在網站上那各縣市呢也會針對這些公會以及相關的服務人員也有評選"},{"start":2672.998,"end":2692.632,"text":"所以評選結果也會公開所以民眾都可以透過這樣子一個公開透明的資訊網站呢去得到一些相關的資訊去另選合理而且合法而且具有管理經驗的人來參與這樣的一個管理事務同時相關的管理人員也必須要有防火避難等等的相關的技術所以這一些都可以讓我們的社區在"},{"start":2694.034,"end":2705.61,"text":"經營管理社區的時候找到最專業的人來協助整個社區進行安全上面以及各方面整個生活上面的一些相關的回顧跟自治的事項"},{"start":2706.653,"end":2726.739,"text":"那麼典交事宜呢因為條例的第57條已經明定好那根據我們的消保法第17條也明確規定預售屋的地形化契約裡面都有針對包括機電消防各類設施等等是由賣方來負責相關的檢測所以檢測的方式就是有賣方跟管委會的管理人員雙方協議"},{"start":2728.76,"end":2731.687,"text":"那麼對於起詔人在違反第57條規定的時候在第49條第8款的時候其實有罰則"},{"start":2738.533,"end":2761.805,"text":"那麼針對管委會第也對於在第18條第二項也有點交之後使得撥付公共基金的規定那麼目前在實務上可能會面臨一些在相關的檢核過程裡面有一些缺失無法有共識的時候大家如何處理所以我們會希望針對這樣子的上述的爭議我們再透過第三方的協助或者是"},{"start":2763.12,"end":2785.888,"text":"整個地方政府相關條例的協助我們讓地方政府有一定的介入的空間協助那個買賣雙方去履行合約讓整個公社的點交可以明確化那如果確定點交的過程有瑕疵那可以得依據消保法第43條的規定向消負責服務中心或者是消保官申訴然後移民式的方式來處理"},{"start":2787.228,"end":2808.775,"text":"那麼現行的體制還有哪些問題呢當然啦我們從這個條例在84年6月28號公佈之後我剛剛也跟各位報告我們歷經了幾次的修正包括92年94年好等等的修正102年還有105年好111年等等的相關的修正這個修正的過程都是為了因應隨著整個社會的"},{"start":2810.975,"end":2837.23,"text":"進步跟整個居民環境的改變以及國家面臨少子化高齡化的問題我們都有不同的方式來面對來因應那我們也希望在整個配合國家淨零減碳以及大家在少子化議題之後那麼對於寵物的鑽養的需求我們也希望能夠透過一些由下而上的方式包括像今天非常感謝委員會能夠召開這樣的公聽會匯集所有專家學者的意見"},{"start":2838.07,"end":2849.049,"text":"透過大院的指導共同來討論怎麼樣子可以有一個更好的方式將我們的相關的法令以及民間所需求的方式我們將條例裡面做一個完整的修正"},{"start":2849.997,"end":2870.472,"text":"那麼怎麼樣是透過民間的力量協助公益大廈去去除錯誤或者是一個優化的管理這個部分其實真的要再一次感謝立法院大院願意做這樣的公聽會畢竟公務人力有限我們整個的培訓其實是我要再一次強調公益大廈管理條例從一開始的制定就是為了"},{"start":2871.352,"end":2896.427,"text":"強化我們的市民社會強化民間的自主管理能力讓公益大廈回歸到住戶本身透過自治的方式的精神然後來管理我們自己的事務所以我們未來會將加強整個法令的宣導以及管理服務人員的培訓及回訓那麼另選優良的管理大廈組織以及管理服務人員透過這樣的方式以及跟民間團體的合作"},{"start":2897.308,"end":2904.456,"text":"讓整個訓練的過程還有相關的資訊能夠更加透明化然後訓練能夠更加精實服務能夠更加服務到位"},{"start":2905.472,"end":2927.238,"text":"最後要再一次感謝趙偉以及各位委員還有學者專家民間團體對於內政部公益大廈管理業務的推動的相關的關注以及指導那麼條例的重點其實就在提升公益大廈的居住品質也希望透過這樣子一個條例的運作呢除了健全相關的管理制度之外更重要的是健全社區的自治來達到共同的利益"},{"start":2927.958,"end":2950.264,"text":"那我想台灣是一個民主社會民主社會的重點還是在於說權利回歸於人民由我們的市民共同來決定我們的生活居住環境的空間應該如何管理所以我們再一次感謝大院的指導以及各位學者專家提供的專業的意見我們相信在未來透過大家的意見的共同的整合我們能夠提出更好更棒的版本謝謝"},{"start":2953.646,"end":2970.974,"text":"好謝謝我們董事長清楚的說明那麼其他單位的報告我們就請大家自行參閱我們會刊登在立法院的公報那麼接下來我們請學者專家來進行發言我們按出席簽到的順序第一位請台北市不動產經營管理協會林士俊理事長發言"},{"start":2981.929,"end":3010.018,"text":"主席 各位委員 議會的場觀寫的專家 早上好今天非常高興為什麼今天特別早來然後登記第一位那我想我針對我們討論提綱有七項我分別來跟大家說明那第一項如果協助藝房跟書房公寓大廈面對經費不足的困境我這邊提出四個建議第一個建議是這個"},{"start":3012.779,"end":3040.097,"text":"公共基金與公設典交要脫鉤 為什麼?因為公設典交是民事的事情公共基金的錢是誰交的?不是企造人給的是我們消費者買房子的時候支付在房價裡面所以這個應該要脫鉤的原因是這個因為我們貶協會 台北市不動產經營管理協會我們做很多的公益執行"},{"start":3041.875,"end":3064.383,"text":"每個禮拜多在做公益資金花姐很多社區成立以後一直在工作典交聚分跟起造年之間打官司打七班都被罷結還有行之十幾年的所以這部分我建議要脫鍋為什麼這個錢是來自於消費者繳的錢不是起造年無產給的就是我的論點那第二點是"},{"start":3066.124,"end":3082.025,"text":"我們現在社區會面臨到公共基金不足的問題為什麼是因為我們提撥的錢是用工程造價這工程造價事實上是我們重建成本的營建成本裡面不到百分之三分之一"},{"start":3083.066,"end":3094.445,"text":"那應該要用重建成本為基底來計算公共基金那這樣的話包括以後的外廠更新 種種的費用就比較充裕"},{"start":3097.708,"end":3122.833,"text":"那另外一點是在我們的歸約的一個範本裡面我建議要有印登記跟不得登記的但是印登記跟不得登記完了以後就要修歸約範本但是印登記跟不印登記了以後也要實時檢查為什麼要實時檢查很簡單因為我最近也看到很多來過公益知情的這些的消費者"},{"start":3124.124,"end":3143.298,"text":"他拿到的藝術合一裡面就發覺齊兆齡不應該登錄的東西太登錄了比如說他跟你講說你這個大廳的奧工到以後官員會自己申請室內裝修"},{"start":3145.883,"end":3172.369,"text":"另外他還登錄了很多霸凌條款所以事實上假如包括藝術都有規範但是包括我們的規範表都有規範但是沒有實時審查就會發生這個翻牆左板而且每個建築物都是獨特性的不可能每個建築物可以抄來抄去所以這部分的規範表企造人一定要委託建築師去好好的做為什麼"},{"start":3173.209,"end":3187.124,"text":"因為建築師是所有的建築裡面對建築的資訊掌握最充分的人消費者是對建築資訊是完全陌生的這個部分就產生資訊不對稱資訊不對稱就會產生消費者會被霸凌"},{"start":3191.05,"end":3216.656,"text":"那爲什麽現在只會產生很多無理的抗拒或是反應都是因爲他來自什麽?因爲知性不對稱這是在第一條部分那第二個部分就是如果降低公益大廈七分十二前會議的爭議我這邊是我這邊的建議就是修幾個法條但是法條內容我比較練我只練第一個是比如修正"},{"start":3218.546,"end":3244.074,"text":"條例的第30條 內容請參加我的這個書面資料還有修我們31條這是在第二部分 七分十二前的部分那我們在如何協助工業大廈管理委員排除社區的糾紛我這邊建議修法條總共有有五條第一條是修第八條外牆部分那"},{"start":3245.458,"end":3266.612,"text":"第二條是新增八之一就是為外牆修正的部分這邊我們有這個建議如果書面資料那第三就是修正第三十七條那第四個是新增三十七條之一那第五個是修正三十八條這如果書面資料那如果協助工業大廈臨險合作廠商這問題"},{"start":3270.655,"end":3281.428,"text":"為什麼臨險廠商會很不好臨險原因在哪裡因為每一個的建築是獨特性的所以假如在所有的歸因裡面"},{"start":3282.605,"end":3301.401,"text":"沒有把它寫清楚 我們社區的歸A換遍的時候在歸A審查的時候 做沒把錢清除 我們可以用其他的作業管理辦法譬如說 我們的請採購 驗收 付款 保庫管理辦法這個都是作業 都是在社區歸A裡面 換遍並沒有規定的"},{"start":3304.683,"end":3317.735,"text":"這個部分都要把它納入規定為什麼因為每個建築物很特別我的外牆貼瓷磚跟貼石材或是用粉刷 油漆粉刷完全不一樣的更新會用"},{"start":3318.706,"end":3343.422,"text":"所以這部分是誰的責任呢是企造人的責任那企造人不能把這個東西以後銷售完了甩鍋給我們全民所售所以這部分應該在這部分就好好的要做一些書面上的作業管理辦法因為我想列政部應該有很大的決心要做這次的沒有的話我們看到市長外強脫落砸死人怎麼辦"},{"start":3345.239,"end":3365.591,"text":"要國賠還是要怎麼辦那我們外牆這個防護板一架上去就沒有卸下的機會台北市台灣的建築物是多麼難看的台北台灣並沒有錢並不是沒有錢的國家是有錢的國家怎麼會建築物變成這麼醜陋是我們要去思考的問題所以我們應該要從新的"},{"start":3370.166,"end":3389.571,"text":"建造申請的時候就要嚴格的去執行這個工作不能在留祖孫在留我們所有前面的所有消費者這個應該要進行的那第五項是公益大廈要辦理供售典交事宜那這部分我有三個建議第一個是供售典交部分"},{"start":3394.556,"end":3412.002,"text":"應該要委託專門的第三機構沒有的話現在的公社典交我也擔任過很多的委員的一個國安會聘請的部分好我最後要講的比較重要是我希望我們的民間住宅要依照社會住宅的"},{"start":3412.842,"end":3427.973,"text":"的審查社會住宅所有的從規劃設計到興建到營運他都有一套的審查而且他是有降低所有的營運費用降低所有的總成本那請議會的來賓參與我的書面報告謝謝謝謝大家好謝謝我們林士鈞理事長下一位我們請台北市居住榮譽發展協會曾庭庭理事長發言"},{"start":3451.583,"end":3475.188,"text":"主席各位委員那各位與會的人員大家好我是台北市居住容易發展協會理事長曾婷婷那今天很榮幸的那個接受那個大會的邀請來到這邊那針對這些問題第一個就是政府應該如何預防那個公寓大廈舒緩他的經費不足的問題因為我們目前都是跑比較老舊的社區社區其實的官會的組成他們其實並不"},{"start":3476.528,"end":3498.71,"text":"因為社區管轄的組成他們其實並不清楚管理費和公共基金的區別所以大家都把公共基金當作是管理費在收取所以其實他們沒有提出公共基金的那種就是習慣或者是依循的方式所以我們認為說應該在條例上面修正管理費的字眼把管理費和公共基金分開"},{"start":3500.271,"end":3519.743,"text":"然後再來就是我覺得應該政府應該要做一個那種讓人民可以依循的方式例如說我們可以請估價師來去估這個房子的耐用年限依照他的年限樓層面積然後依照50年後的那個本利倒算的比例計算每個月應該負擔的金額可以在以後一定的年限再增加繳費的金額"},{"start":3521.424,"end":3541.934,"text":"這樣子在未來的修繕上面人民會有有所的依據就像在日本一樣啊他的那個建屋年限越高他每個月所要需要支付的公共基金就會越高這樣子在一定的年限然後人民需要支付更多的費用的情況之下這樣子他們才會有考慮到說他們是不是要修繕要重建這樣的話才不會弱造成人民的生活品質降低"},{"start":3545.799,"end":3569.346,"text":"那至於目前經費不足的問題我覺得應該要請金管會可以修法讓他可能就是讓銀行可以借貸給管理委員會就是修繕的基金因為目前其實管委會其實就是想要做一些修繕但是問題是人民如果假設他的住戶不願意付錢的情況之下他們其實是非常的困難的所以我覺得應該可以說區選會過了之後然後呢你就可以借錢給"},{"start":3570.786,"end":3582.416,"text":"那個銀行就是可以借貸給那個官委會讓他做修繕那人民可以他可以在那個所有權人上面做註記然後假設那個未來他賣房子的時候那個人那個新的承接者他該掛承受"},{"start":3586.482,"end":3611.071,"text":"然後至於那個區分所有權會議的爭議啊其實法條上面雖然寫得很清楚啦但是因為早期有很多的歷史共業啊譬如說一樓的住戶我是不是管理費要掃腳然後因為我沒有坐電梯或是頂樓你住的時候是不是漏水的時候我不要去支付雖然說法條上面都很清楚可是管委會也是去勸人啊也是住戶啊其實他們要再執行的時候他們其實是非常的困難的"},{"start":3612.111,"end":3639.158,"text":"所以我們希望說在有爭議的時候其實我們可以比照自主更新會一樣就是政府方面他可以派員到現場來做指導譬如說假設我們當有去當管委會有重大的決議的時候是不是說可以委請譬如說有一些協會的專家學者然後到現場去指導告訴民眾說什麼是對的什麼是錯的對啊我覺得在有專家學者在現場的時候其實我覺得就不會有這麼多無理的那種就是抗爭這樣子"},{"start":3649.758,"end":3654.531,"text":"那至於那個公寓大廈政府應該如何排解那個公寓大廈管理委員會的內部的糾紛"},{"start":3658.817,"end":3683.623,"text":"我覺得這四條有一個共同的那個就是管理負責人或管理委員會予以制止就是說當不管你也許有什麼堆放雜物啊什麼之類的時候那反正第一線就是要求官委會去制止他那我假設監管處接到民眾的檢舉的時候他也是會用這條去告訴那個檢舉的民眾說OK我要找你們的官委會去制止他然後請官委會去就是回報給那個主管機關開罰"},{"start":3685.383,"end":3706.009,"text":"所以說這階條導致於很多的管委會其實它就不再申報了不再報備了對啊那這樣子的情況之下民眾就是投訴我們對我覺得主管機關應該擔起責任就是當你接到檢舉的時候你應該就是要派人去現場去勘察然後去直接去做開罰或是勸導的動作不然的話其實很多社區像那種大型社區他們其實就不再報備"},{"start":3709.741,"end":3722.059,"text":"那如何政府如何協助公寓大廈遴選廠商我覺得政府在第一線的時候其實他可以就是可以提供有經驗的廠商的名單譬如說消防公安外牆檢測拉皮漏水等管線的問題那"},{"start":3724.588,"end":3749.421,"text":"他應該要每年去更新那另外的話人民他其實他人民其實就是很怕就是有什麼圖利的問題啊就是被人家講說你A錢之類的所以我覺得最好的方式就是我覺得應該有公版的評分標準就是讓我們知道說ok我們全廠商除了要價格以外還有其他的評分譬如說商譽啊做的東西啊什麼之類的就是像比照那個公務人員招標的公開招工程招標一樣做一個評分表"},{"start":3752.742,"end":3772.23,"text":"然後至於是政府應該如何協助公益大廈做公設點交事宜我覺得就是我們現在雖然有要求那個新的大樓提撥公共基金可是其實我覺得我們可以要求建商要提撥一個叫做公設點交基金因為人民在管理委員會剛成立的時候其實包括是沒有錢的然後那個公設點交其實動輒都是數十萬"},{"start":3774.182,"end":3788.8,"text":"對啊那其實基本上他們要去大家都不認識的狀態下要去籌措這筆錢其實是有困難的所以我覺得應該請介商就是在管委會成立的時候就提撥這個公社點交基金給管委會然後呢這樣有管委會去聘請這個專業的公社點交的機構來做專業的點交"},{"start":3791.403,"end":3808.103,"text":"但是這個連交公司常常每次都是開出數百條的缺失其實在國務會的時候其實說到這種數百條缺失的時候其實他們是非常害怕的所以我覺得最好的方式就是除了這個機構的專業協助之外我覺得最好的還是就是在協調方面如果有需要的時候還是可以委請公益課的專家練習來協調"},{"start":3810.586,"end":3826.961,"text":"因為常常買完房子之後那個建商不知道為什麼他就變臉了對啊本來買的之前大家是好朋友啊買後之後他就變成是仇人然後就會都會惡言相向啊就會覺得說你你你那個官員會要我的錢對啊我覺得那種都很難得去處理所以我覺得最好的方式還是請專家練習"},{"start":3829.963,"end":3858.593,"text":"那公寓大廈目前的現在存在的體制我覺得就是像現在不是重要的就是大家就是修繕結構補牆外牆拉皮這樣的問題那國土署也有推出那個落成補牆的問題那像我們其實常常就遇到了就是落成補牆的時候我們這樣就去選會好不容易通過了錢也湊齊了可是其實住戶就突然就反尾說我不要不要你進來我家修繕其實我們其實住戶大概最需要就是有公權力可以介入來去調解或者是說今天可以有"},{"start":3860.291,"end":3875.309,"text":"就是可以有說假設你不願意的狀態之下當危險來臨的時候那你是不是應該有罰則之類的東西政府如何透過民間團體的力量來那個公益大廈除錯化的優化管理"},{"start":3876.943,"end":3906.364,"text":"我覺得政府其實他可以做一個因為大家在做開會的時候其實很多老舊社區都是資本化資本化其實對很多社區來講都是很大的負擔然後計算比例什麼之類他很困難所以我覺得政府可以做一個那個物業的系統然後市長管委會可以就是進入系統之後自動自動的計算比例然後開會的會議記錄然後可以產生物質化直接上傳到公寓科直接做報備避免推薦跟浪費的油資再來就是我覺得可以做線上總幹事的諮詢提供管委會正確的解決方式"},{"start":3908.186,"end":3933.858,"text":"再來是我覺得應該委託一些協會或是外派人員去去一個那種多年沒有開區選會或是多年沒有報備的那個管委會去讓去協助他們去選主委讓他們做正常的運作再來是我覺得政府有很多的補助可是人民其實不會申請所以我覺得應該是委請專業的單位協助人民去申請這個管委會的各項的補助再來是我覺得應該要開設那個管理委員會的那個實務的實務班的訓練然後教導管委會的那個義務和權利謝謝"},{"start":3939.089,"end":3940.25,"text":"主席各位親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":3958.749,"end":3964.253,"text":"感謝大家在百忙之中集聚一堂討論公益大廈管理條例實行30年來的制度檢討與未來的展望這不僅是一場關於建屋管理的對話更是一場相關人民生活的品質與公共安全的國家治理課題目前台灣公益大廈數量越來越多"},{"start":3990.11,"end":4011.769,"text":"且多数建筑的已迈入年龄已经超过25年以上的阶段租户组成多元社区治理需要日益复杂然而公益大厦的日常管理却处处受限首先我们来看针对许多社区市"},{"start":4012.429,"end":4028.259,"text":"依法成立了管理委員會並設有公共基金卻在對外的管理就是救老的管線還是外牆的剖落消防措施檢查等重大受傷需要實施就是無法完整"},{"start":4033.443,"end":4045.44,"text":"經費短缺問題也非管理不善而是結構性制度未能提供足夠的支持政府應主動設施公務大廈的專屬修繕制度的"},{"start":4048.384,"end":4056.45,"text":"補助還有提供最低貸款的搭配技術的輔導幫助社區度過老化與維修的高峰期避免建築危機租屋的安全再來管理委員的角色雖然是為租屋選出但實際運作時在機場不具公權力而陷入就是無力的狀態"},{"start":4076.857,"end":4081.924,"text":"無論是面對的違規住屋處理垃圾分裂公共等的爭議仍試圖排除就是淋漓的紛爭時常遇到的是講不聽高不成的困境"},{"start":4093.94,"end":4098.144,"text":"讓許多願意投入社區的事務居民感到氣暖也影響居住的管理委員會的信任與參與的意願因此我們建議政府設置由地方政府主導"},{"start":4111.156,"end":4131.475,"text":"就是成立一個社區正義調出平台作為管理委員會的後盾並思考是否可以收權管理委員會一定的行政協助處理權限在特定事務上地方政府有明確分工於"},{"start":4133.243,"end":4147.812,"text":"支援的制度管理不再靠熱忱而是有制度有工具實務的支撐此外我們也觀察到的到各區所有全人的會議經常成為紛爭的溫床"},{"start":4152.054,"end":4156.295,"text":"會議通知表決方式意識記錄透明度都缺雜意識性的標準也許多紛爭並非立場不同而是程序不清溝通不良導致政府應設計一套標準化的意識流程模組並協助導入電子投票線上與系統提供出席率表決的效力"},{"start":4178.859,"end":4182.22,"text":"現代科技早已經大幅改善所以我們設計管理也是要一定的跟科技有關政府不能再觀望 討論 再討論這樣子的工具無法對我們的公益大學的落實再來關於各個合作 我們希望各個區的長期"},{"start":4204.585,"end":4219.091,"text":"習慣以最低價的標準來做唯一的準則導致就修繕的品質與服務就是沒辦法管控所以整合地方社區的保全 機電清潔等的業者評估記錄"},{"start":4223.253,"end":4227.035,"text":"讓管理委員會參考數據做出決策同時也應提供簡明讓引導基本的企業協助社區避免資訊落差而產生紛爭另外長期就是我們疏忽的問題就是公社點機制的漏洞依法依據法律"},{"start":4248.874,"end":4269.026,"text":"建商應該交屋時完成碩士的驗收但時機中場是交接的草率資料也不齊全導致遺留未完成的行刑這次問題在新城屋交屋時但其後果卻未達到我們10年的租屋來的承擔建議政府會"},{"start":4272.168,"end":4277.531,"text":"第三方的專業驗證的制度並建立點交文件的登錄平台提供建商旅約透明化也保障住戶的權利最後談到制度的改喆我們希望說與我們的法條本身調整還有更應有整體性的制度設計政府應透過補助和培訓的機制輔助我們在地的"},{"start":4300.522,"end":4301.983,"text":"業務管理協會或者土地公會等專業的團體為社區輔導與支持的角色並協助進行制度的建設財務規劃與管理訓練所以讓我們的社區不是單打獨鬥"},{"start":4320.095,"end":4326.26,"text":"我們在30年前的公益大廈的管理條例開啟了社區自主管理的時代但30年後我們今天必須我們要重視社區治理的結構的困難而提供資源與支撐我們期待政府能從財務"},{"start":4341.853,"end":4370.114,"text":"法律 制度 設立專業的知識層面真正與基層社區站在一起同時打造一個更具體的任性跟有效率希望我們的社區與管理委員還有我們的政府共同來去達成共識幫助我們的居民有一個更好的環境居住安全的居住 以上謝謝"},{"start":4373.077,"end":4384.143,"text":"好謝謝我們麥玉珍委員的發言下一位我們請台灣公寓大廈管理顧問協會饒厚樂理事長發言大家早我是台灣公寓大廈管理顧問協會的理事長饒厚樂今天跟大家報告一下對於改善公寓大廈管理政府該做些什麼我們的想法"},{"start":4402.557,"end":4430.3,"text":"那我想先做總結因為要報告內容很多怕等一下來不及要先做總結總結是什麼呢剛剛次長有提到說公寓大廈的核心就是社區自治那我們面臨的課題就是我們的人民不曉得如何自治所以要解決公寓大廈的問題其實是訓練我們的人民還有去幫忙我們的公寓大廈環境變得友善讓大家可以自治公寓大廈才有出路才有希望"},{"start":4431.757,"end":4437.303,"text":"三四年前我們通過供應大廈管理條例我們的法制化管理就開始了"},{"start":4438.971,"end":4467.161,"text":"可是我覺得我經歷這30年沒有看到一個典範轉移的發生我們看到有一部法律但是配套法律的觀念還有作為沒有出現所以公寓大廈因為法律背後的集體主義還有社會傳統的個人主義的對撞所以我們出現了很多的糾紛也所以說我們後來修法就修了一個我們靠一個公正客觀的第三人的介入去解決公寓大廈管理的爭議"},{"start":4469.484,"end":4496.131,"text":"這個事情在40多年前李國鼎就已經預言了預言台灣因為缺乏群體關係倫理所以他會卡住社會的發展社會的進步那我覺得李國鼎的貢獻對大家來講是非常清楚的但是李國鼎他所提到的這一點是台灣社會所忽略的我們正在為忽略這個觀點而在付出代價我有個好朋友很多年前在電腦公司做事情"},{"start":4498.63,"end":4524.561,"text":"他有一天接到電話對方就跟他問說你們可不可以換電腦的置杯架他聽了就講說你這應該是銷售贈品吧我幫你轉到銷售部門去問問看好不好對方就講說 不不會是贈品它就在電腦的機器裡頭有個按鈕按一下置杯架就伸出來然後等我不用的時候我再按一下置杯架就縮進去了"},{"start":4525.956,"end":4555.368,"text":"那他就開始摸不著頭緒這到底在講什麼東西啊在開始抓頭的時候呢旁邊的同事戳戳他說人家講的是光碟機這個就是我對於公寓大廈管理的體會我們台灣我們因為對於公寓大廈管理非常的陌生其實是很陌生的我們只好去沿用舊有的經驗去看待公寓大廈管理所以我們一直在把那個光碟機在當作置碑架在用"},{"start":4558.04,"end":4577.422,"text":"這個很榮幸今天能夠跟各位公寓大廈管理的長官、前輩、專家一塊研討怎麼樣來改善公寓大廈管理那我除了希望說我們的法律能夠更加完善怎麼樣完善呢?比如說我們現行的公寓大廈管理32條它是為了要去"},{"start":4579.563,"end":4604.335,"text":"這個彌補我們公寓大廈的現況就是少數參與還有少數決策所以說就訂定了32條可以少數去制定我們公共事務決策但是我們前面的立法我們忽略掉幾個可能比如說它是一個少數決策所以要經過那個後續的徵求反對意見的程序可是如果說來的人很踴躍呢"},{"start":4605.851,"end":4624.843,"text":"我們還要去踐行那個32條後面的徵求這個反對意見程序嗎那個要花時間那個要花作業的成本的所以我們只要說當這個狀況的時候我們在這個法律當中加一條就是說當你的出席的人數達到你的規約或者第31條的規定的時候適用第31條的規定問題解決了"},{"start":4630.367,"end":4653.981,"text":"那同樣的就是說我們32條的標準不是說你做的假決議要靠過半數的區分所有權人去否定掉嗎那如果我們在這個重新召集的會議裡頭有過半數總數過半數的人還有比例做成決議他應該當場可以生效因為你既然有過半數的人同意就不可能有"},{"start":4654.841,"end":4680.019,"text":"過半數的人在反對這件事情所以這個就是我們可以讓法律變得更有效率的方式這個是就修法修法以外我希望我們今天可以了解一下公寓大廈管理的現況公寓大廈管理的現況呢就是這個我們缺乏的一些元素基本元素比如說我們現在有規約那我們的起照人要提供這個規約的草約可是問題是呢"},{"start":4680.419,"end":4708.473,"text":"我們沒有這個長期修繕計畫那我知道今天很多的前輩很多的先進會提到這個所以我就不多講那我只是去做一個比喻因為我們台灣沒有這個用規劃用估算還有事前的約定去幫忙去建構公寓大廈的穩定性所以台灣的公寓大廈管理那個狀況很像是今天我們把一群人通通叫到遊覽車上面然後開始大家討論去什麼地方玩"},{"start":4709.537,"end":4734.493,"text":"所以一個進步的概念就是當群體有人要去做事前的規劃事前的約定但是現況來講這個沒有再來我要講到我們現況是什麼東西現況是我三年前我在桃園市擔任優良公寓大廈評選的時候我那時候分配到一個新秀組新秀組大部分都是五年以內的公寓大廈很年輕很有朝氣"},{"start":4735.816,"end":4761.747,"text":"那結果來我看了一下社區的資料跟這個主委在做溝通的時候我就問他說你們的會議記錄啊講說你們的會議因為沒有達到三分之二所以主席就宣布留會我說不對不對我看了你們的規約你們的規約是抄我們內政部的規約範本規約範本不是三分之二規約範本已經改成了過半數就可以我看你們的簽到記錄你們有過半數的人出席所以你那一天應該要開會"},{"start":4763.71,"end":4786.966,"text":"結果沒有人看規約沒有人在這過程裡頭去提醒主席主席主席我們過半數就可以開會所以你白白的浪費掉那場會議你浪費掉所有參與居民的時間這就是我們的現況為什麼會有這個現況我要接著去做一個分析這現況很普遍在我那一次因為我整組全部看這個問題一看的話不得了"},{"start":4788.474,"end":4805.244,"text":"來參加評選這些有自信的社區有三分之一犯一模一樣的錯誤所以我們的體制問題大了問題大在什麼地方呢我們的問題是我們的錯誤沒有辦法去解決或者沒有辦法去規避那這個我還跟這個主委開個玩笑說"},{"start":4807.193,"end":4822.513,"text":"主委主委你現在東窗事發你擔不擔心你們的規約裡頭規定說有達到那個人數的時候是要發一千塊錢的出席費現在回頭你大家來跟你要那場出席費那最後我覺得"},{"start":4824.752,"end":4843.979,"text":"這個跟各位說明一下因為台灣公寓大廈管理顧問協會我們成立的目的就希望說能夠催生公寓大廈管理顧問還有推動公寓大廈管理2.0運動2.0運動呢各位可以在今天的書面資料裡頭可以做參考那我們如果把2.0運動的主張拿來去回復今天"},{"start":4848.479,"end":4872.316,"text":"我們公聽會的提綱其實大部分的問題通通都有解決的方案所以非常希望說我們從另外一個角度去思考或許法律以外我們可以從我們的建制去著手去改良我們公寓大廈的環境去用政府的資源跟理性注入到公寓大廈管理那個公寓大廈才有出路 謝謝"},{"start":4876.644,"end":4881.196,"text":"好謝謝我們饒後樂理事長的發言下一位我們請台灣物業優化經濟協會張家榮理事長發言"},{"start":4891.109,"end":4909.843,"text":"主席各位在座的学者跟新那个先进大家早安报告人台湾物业优化经济协会张家龙理事长那今天很高兴能够参加有这个机会来参加这个公听会那如何提升与修法的公听会"},{"start":4910.836,"end":4932.909,"text":"今天針對這個七個議題我個人僅以第六項來提出個人的淺見與討論在此向各位報告與參酌有如有不足的地方再請各位委員及各位先進來來做個指導跟參考題目現行公寓大廈管理體制還存在哪些問題有何解決之道"},{"start":4934.35,"end":4957.848,"text":"這個題目我個人以四個方向來跟各位說明第一個就是協助購屋者取回法定停車位知自主權的權益本條例第58條第二項條文明確的指出建商起造人不得將法定車位讓與區分所有權人以外的特定人士設定"},{"start":4959.212,"end":4985.715,"text":"专用使用权依民法第799条第5项专有部分与其所有的共用部分及其基地之权利不得分离而转移或设定负担以上分析建商跟起造人于让让售专有部分应将专有部分其属规定的法定停车空间"},{"start":4986.892,"end":5015.181,"text":"应有一部分转移为购物者而该法停留的空间等其属区分所有权人之共有建商及起造人的条款默许下合理的将法定车位及获得专有使用权及出售与承购户此种行为为购物者经验适合已成合理"},{"start":5016.101,"end":5037.676,"text":"如此或行行為之違背的誠信原則已修法我們目前在社區有很多的規約上面或者說建設公司上面都會把這個納為他的利益所致所以是希望能夠在這個部分來加以做一個調整"},{"start":5038.917,"end":5062.037,"text":"第二个部分检讨召集人职务怠慢的因应措施区分所有权人的召集人多为具备区分所有权人的身份管理为主委员组委在召集产生职务懈怠消极不愿召开时虽有本条例的第47条不履行义务的连续处罚但"},{"start":5063.089,"end":5084.406,"text":"如召集人定願受罰而不召開事項會議在本條例並無解除該職務的規定恐造成管理事務的延宕雖可透過行政的程序彌補但勢必曠日廢時本文建議在召開"},{"start":5085.902,"end":5106.154,"text":"在有关于召集人不履行义务及限制限定时给予解除及并待卫待卫召开制度在桃园服务的一个案场那因为委员会就是因为是有这样的的的一个习性所以连续"},{"start":5107.116,"end":5124.883,"text":"六個月管理費都一直沒有辦法支給保全公司所以這個部分希望能夠重視第三個部分協助推動區分所有權的會議網路科技化這個部分剛剛有委員也有提到這個部分所以這個就請各位參閱"},{"start":5126.82,"end":5144.777,"text":"第四导入专业人从事公寓大厦的管理管理事务参考日本标准管理规约已设定有专业人士担任公寓大厦管理师的规划反观我国还停留在物业公司的包山包海的总干事的阶段"},{"start":5145.757,"end":5170.905,"text":"其缺乏法律素养与完善的教育训练在公寓大厦争议时无法提供专业的释法的措施或提供管理委员会正确的逻辑加上管理委员会亦非专业人士的组合在管理事务上面时效上面推动上面经常造成不确定的法律行为与释法异议"},{"start":5173.066,"end":5196.767,"text":"立法立法者應面對這個問題修訂偵涉證照制度及高階的管理人員如消防法第7條有關於消防管理師防災室的設施將物業管理公司的服務總幹事列定位為執行執行層面那高階管理人員"},{"start":5198.157,"end":5213.688,"text":"成為區區分所有權能與管理委員會召開的審查簽署機制如能有效的節省司法單位的訴訟能量且能確保公寓大廈的安定效能那"},{"start":5215.342,"end":5229.622,"text":"令全面推動物業管理人員防災式的培訓結合政府重大政策的推的執行意識導入專業人員從事公寓大廈的事務是最佳的示範"},{"start":5230.603,"end":5252.498,"text":"本協會台灣物業有優化經濟協會在下個月5月24號跟25號有在桃園舉辦的雙證照就是針對這個防災是包班上課包班上課所以我們希望能夠提升物業公寓大廈的管理是你我來共同來努力那"},{"start":5253.936,"end":5266.884,"text":"也感謝牛委員及各位的長官跟學者的重視以上的說明如有冒犯或不妥之處再請委員及在座學者老師們給予指導謝謝大家好謝謝謝謝張嘉榮理事長的發言下一位我們請中華民國地震市全聯會榮譽理事長林旺根先生發言"},{"start":5287.985,"end":5306.818,"text":"主席還有董正志還有各位委員還有各位先進大家早那今天很開心能夠參加這個公寓法30週年的這個這個公聽會我在立法的草案的時候就參加過討論到現在那這個是一個蠻不錯的一個一個經驗那我們這個立法"},{"start":5313.382,"end":5326.877,"text":"都是災難式的發生的時候產生的一些促進這個修法我覺得這個部分部裡面應該要針對現在剛剛理事長提的這幾個問題應該通盤的再去做一些檢討那這個法"},{"start":5333.38,"end":5347.553,"text":"當初在立法的時候就董正次有提到在當初黃南淵的署長時代發生威爾康那個時候就認為我們公益法應該朝向自治"},{"start":5348.194,"end":5369.762,"text":"自治的這樣子的一個方向那法要入家門的時候應該要有他的一些所謂的公共利益或者是權力利益的共同利益的違反的時候才能夠去介入這個是我覺得到現在那麼各國其實還是遵循這樣子的一個立法的趨勢這個是我們應該要做的"},{"start":5372.483,"end":5394.711,"text":"那這裡面希望說尊重自治然後讓他能夠運作才是今天的核心的議題那我們在這個最近的修法裡面是要強制入成立管委會但是我看了台北市的這個首善之區的成就也不是那麼的好"},{"start":5396.292,"end":5416.161,"text":"到去年的時候才只有應該我我減算是應該是76.47才是正確的所以所以這個顯見我們現在公寓大家的管理是有一些問題那麼今天的今天公聽會的主題是說政府能夠做什麼"},{"start":5416.901,"end":5430.919,"text":"那我就從這個角度去看確實我們政府要做的還是增多但是能量還是有限這個部分也請我們公益大廈管理服務的專業者也要體諒"},{"start":5432.04,"end":5446.072,"text":"那再來要內部的那個部分我覺得很重要的就是要建立一個所謂的財務正確的觀念這個財務正確的觀念我們在立法上面有公共基金跟管理委付經費"},{"start":5447.793,"end":5470.248,"text":"但是我們立法在18條裡面他起照人要提撥一定比例的供給一定一年內管理維護事項的這件事情其實是讓這個公共基金跟管理費錯亂剛剛理事長有很多提到有很多誤以為公共基金就是管理費"},{"start":5471.669,"end":5491.661,"text":"但是我們要看公共基金其實是在說人家說台灣一百塊要用的不是要親自的所以在這種狀況之下我覺得政府可以做的就應該趕快把它修法把這件事情把它釐清在2013年的這個修法的草案"},{"start":5492.481,"end":5520.059,"text":"那麼已經有做這樣子的一個修正但是很遺憾那個時候的立法院沒有去完成這個修法那再來就是政府可以做什麼我覺得政府現在的籌碼應該把它整合有包括重大修繕耐震補強都更整建維護等等這些其實都是對老舊的建築物的那個部分那現在我們面臨雙老的時候尤其剛剛有幾位理事長提到我們應該"},{"start":5522.941,"end":5541.338,"text":"日本的機制很多國外的德國或者是法國其實他都有所謂的長期修繕維護的制度然後立這個把這個部分入法在建築法在本條例然後在規約裡面那麼建立這些機制然後將來在這個鼓勵"},{"start":5545.121,"end":5569.012,"text":"新建的這個部分叫強制那舊的那個部分應該要用鼓勵補助的方式來做那區權會的運作的那個部分有我幾個問題內部的現在我們的區權會的決議在31條32條都是混搭的那我們早期的有重大修繕"},{"start":5570.393,"end":5595.153,"text":"重大的決議事項的時候應該要特別決那現在我們這個部分混在一起難怪剛剛有的包括老理事長有提到這個運作上面應該要再做一些釐清所以我覺得這個部分在2013年的那個修法的草案應該把它回復至少至少應該在在這個這個"},{"start":5599.276,"end":5604.839,"text":"至少應該要回到那個回到2013年修法之前的那個特別決議區權會的決議裡面還有一個部分就是那個"},{"start":5627.796,"end":5654.338,"text":"召集人的問題召集人在各國都是在管理者去做召集那我們現在是另創一個召集人的這個制度其實是一個很錯誤的一個做法那我還是強力建議應該回到管理者然後那個管理者我們是借其就當然上司那個委員的資格那個部分也是不對應該允許他有所謂的這個"},{"start":5656.64,"end":5679.083,"text":"過度守看守的這個責任那再來就是怎麼樣讓這個鼓勵現有的業者的這個部分我認為現有的制度管理維護人員現在訓練那麼多而且專業的公司那麼多但是我們允許管理委員會去聘僱管理"},{"start":5680.764,"end":5698.891,"text":"樓管人員這個部分產生所謂的反淘汰的這個現象其實這個都不太對那再來就是這個這個點交的那個問題點交我們現在面臨的一些厭惡的公司沒有沒有"},{"start":5700.694,"end":5717.168,"text":"法律的規範良又不齊的這種狀況其實應該跟搭配剛剛講我們應該從這個管理樓管人員裡面的專業者去把他訓練然後提供一定的標準作業程序然後"},{"start":5718.729,"end":5744.732,"text":"訂定相關的資格條件這個我覺得是目前蠻迫切的那另外法律制度上面那這個修法的內容各位可以參考這個現有的這個部分的機制因為現在有一些管委會要接管有一些不是管委會要接管這個部分是制度上有一些缺漏"},{"start":5746.053,"end":5772.875,"text":"另外我在最後一點時間要跟大會建議因為三年多前我接受內政部的委託去做這個預售屋交易的糾紛慣需停車空間的研究裡面我們也提出來很多的這個建議包括建築技術規則的修正包括這個公寓法裡面的56條的修正這些修正的內容那麼將來請"},{"start":5775.096,"end":5777.599,"text":"部裡面審慎評估進行立法 謝謝好 謝謝我們劉漢根理事長下一位我們請沈巧元律師發言"},{"start":5808.751,"end":5820.176,"text":"主席主席各位委員各位專家學者各位在場先進那這邊先跟大家問好那我今天來做一個簡單的報告那首先"},{"start":5827.099,"end":5841.277,"text":"其實剛才這個主管機關這邊其實有提到一個重點公益大家關於條例立法精神中首要的其實就是尊重各個社區司法自治這是一個基本的原則"},{"start":5842.398,"end":5864.253,"text":"也就是說呢基於各個社區啦或者我們稱之為他是一個聚落或是一個群體他在不同的地域文化環境或歷史上一些原油跟雞他已經形成不同的內部的社區的社區文化的時候國家公權力在尊重這些文化下面的情況下綜合考量資源的合理公平分配下那我們"},{"start":5865.074,"end":5877.035,"text":"在是不是應該要在何種情況下那要給予一個一定程度的一個介入那這是我們這次好像這次的公聽會的一個主題那事實上就是說"},{"start":5878.154,"end":5903.086,"text":"每個社區因為他自己有自己基本有自己型數的文化從管理委員的選任到管理委員自己對於社區治理其實都是一種微型的民主政治的一種體現跟演練那民主政治那就難免一定會有衝突那衝突發生的時候那就是會有我們剛才我們這邊議題上面提到的一些爭議出現"},{"start":5904.767,"end":5931.792,"text":"那給予社區自己彼此透過一個民主的方式來磨合跟試措累積這種少數服從多數民主經驗的機會其實是有一定的必要性那剛才萬千萬也有報告全台灣目前是登記是有五萬多個社區那我自己本身是在比較熟悉是新北市新北市在去年還是前年就已經突破一萬個社區了"},{"start":5932.992,"end":5954.625,"text":"那其實大部分社區的運作算是穩定那每個健全社區其實住戶本身來講都是有他自己的專長來提供為社區服務然後自己運作管理自己社區那有增值的社區當然是有那甚至有很多訴訟都是有存在的那這個東西畢竟可能還是相對來講是一個少數"},{"start":5956.286,"end":5963.668,"text":"那當然如果一個社區的衝突已經到了一個極大化溝通可能性都已經被斷絕的時候那這個或者是說齊全仁帶多退縮他不願意參與社區的自治民主的這個情況政府應該如何活化跟改善這種陷入困境的社區那這個是就是政府需要可能"},{"start":5981.252,"end":6007.887,"text":"有要介入切入來協助的一個切入點那也是十分感謝能夠召開本次的公聽會然後正視這個議題但是從法律面的角度來看凡是涉及公益大廈問題除了前述我們剛剛講的司法自治這個精神本質之外最主要一點就是一般住戶是不傾向用訴訟的方式來解決紛爭"},{"start":6009.088,"end":6025.786,"text":"那一方面是因為涉及重人之事那一階段大家不會想要用強硬的訴訟來解決而且一旦那如果是社區彼此之間的訴訟的話進入訴訟之後跟一般的訴訟不一樣的地方在於訴訟結束之後大家還是住在一起你還是住在我對面這樣"},{"start":6027.367,"end":6041.752,"text":"所以說大家還是對於供應大廈的涉及供應大廈的議題一般來講都是會建議應該是要儘量朝輸送外的紛爭解決方式來處理那不論是調解或是調處稍後會一些說明"},{"start":6046.772,"end":6066.866,"text":"公益大廈的部分來講因為他司法自治跟他的一些這種特性我們實在是不太可能說在完全適用民法上面的一些規定或者公益大管理條例一些規定一板一眼的來依法行事反而會更加的圓滿在以上這些前提下我就這本次這個幾個議題"},{"start":6069.047,"end":6095.574,"text":"簡單的發言那首先第一個議題就是所謂公立大廈經費不足困境那一般來講管理經費的來源一般就是實務上當然就是建商他在興建的時候一定會提撥一筆基金給工大科那公設點交之後就會取回那另一個管道就是建商他預收的這個管理費那在管理會成立之後移交給社區就會有一定的一開始的社區就會有一定的啟動費"},{"start":6096.755,"end":6114.989,"text":"那前者的話涉及到我們議題五公設典交了那我們稍後再說那前者後者的部分就是所謂這預收管理費的交付其實也是會遇到這個移交款項你要如何去精算他的收支是不是正確的問題也是跟公設典交其實是綁在一起"},{"start":6116.388,"end":6143.402,"text":"所以說這個部分在公共點價部分再來討論那至於關於公共基金的這個收取應用其實我們實務上市會都會建議說要善用物業管理公司他們會一些有職的物業管理公司都會提供就是所謂說社區的預算的收支的一些預估跟編列那用這種方式然後來形成一個社區的一個名義然後看說你是要挑戰管理費"},{"start":6143.982,"end":6169.983,"text":"或者是說那就是說要讓大家知道說社區有什麼樣的開銷那這個東西可以考慮的管道政府這邊能夠提供協助社區東西其實就是一定的法治教育就是說讓新社區成立一個新社區的官委會他能夠理解到社區剛才其實剛剛結惠有提到就是理解一個社區他的生命走起來長久下來將來可能會有什麼"},{"start":6170.916,"end":6185.184,"text":"一樣的花費那相機來講就是電梯大概十年左右七八年就要換了那漏水台灣因為地震帶關係二三十年一定會漏水了那還有就是一些外觀拉皮這都是高額的花費你如果不先預先存錢那將來都會出現問題"},{"start":6187.245,"end":6211.258,"text":"那這些東西又不是每個社區的人都會了解有這樣子的問題意識那你這東西透過一些法治教育或一些宣導其實是可以讓大家產生這樣的幽幻意識然後去做然後再去行訴去向郵管委會這邊去推廣給全體的社區住戶拉了解到這個他的必要性"},{"start":6212.148,"end":6230.328,"text":"那至於這個議題234的部分來講其實都是我們律師在擔任社區的法律顧問或處理社區的法律問題的時候常會見遇到的糾紛區大的決議是無效或撤銷管理委員會的決議的撤銷或者是"},{"start":6232.81,"end":6254.632,"text":"或者是說那間管理上面的一個適不適當那我們先講以最最最最接近司法就跟廠商合作這個東西基本上來講的話我是建議這邊是初步直接直接跳結論就是說其實可以比照類似像說公約販本的方式因為如果你今天有一個法律顧問的話基本上我們會協助社區制定說是超管辦法"},{"start":6255.593,"end":6274.365,"text":"招標辦法或是招標續資契約的擬定但是很多社區其實沒有這個預算跟能力或問題意識要提早顧問但是這機關還是可以擬定這種類似的子辦法的這種範本來協助社區那至於這個區大安社區管理部分來講其實已經有現在有很多的生意調出的一些"},{"start":6275.285,"end":6297.241,"text":"的機制 法律上也有說各縣市已經有要成立自己的公益大家調處委員會新北市有所謂的總指教師提供人民來免費諮詢只是調處委員會的機制目前好像只有六都市比較有在運作其實其他是沒有的這部分來講其實是應該是建議是政府應該要善用活化這方面的機制這樣"},{"start":6298.382,"end":6308.06,"text":"那現在就結束了還是可以繼續講下再繼續講下我繼續講下那最後一個在這第下一個就是有關公社典交的部分來講公社典交部分其實"},{"start":6309.746,"end":6333.063,"text":"條例57條裡面主要講到就是所謂的俗稱四大管線點交但是其實對住戶而言他其實他不太懂這東西是什麼他更重視的是建商你給我的承諾包括廣告不實或各種的買賣瑕疵或是營造上瑕疵政府現在在推行所謂的安全專案就是要區分兩者讓你條例趕快點交點交完之後我把錢撥給你那你至於你民間的各種瑕疵請你用訴訟機跟建商解決"},{"start":6334.484,"end":6349.276,"text":"可是這其實是違反了一般人民的人性因為人民跟建商談判都希望一起打包因為沒有人想要訴訟他不用這個公社點交東西來跟建商一起協商來解決是沒有辦法來處理的所以說"},{"start":6350.731,"end":6376.737,"text":"通常都會希望談判桌上一次把它解決那公司的典交部分專業第三人檢驗其實是可以協助人民管會知道這些建商提供的這些消防管線到底有沒有違法的違反法令因為這個執法令是非常繁複跟詳細一般人不會理解可是這種東西這種第三人的檢驗場上最多就是發現錯誤你仍然是要有一個談判的一個"},{"start":6377.973,"end":6400.05,"text":"談判籌碼若建商不買單你也是沒有用現在的現行的公民大會管理法條例裡面其實根本沒有給予人民一個談判的籌碼可以去跟建商來談雖然說條例49條有說若是你建商不點交的時候我可以處罰你可是實際上裁罰的機率是非常非常非常少何況建商其實很容易講說我有機器在改善啊是你們自己不願意跟我去點交那"},{"start":6400.851,"end":6426.849,"text":"其實人民沒有一個談判籌碼的時候到最後都是可能說都是被迫去接受建商的一個點交然後事後發生問題的時候然後就就沒有辦法來解決問題那所以說這部分來講以公社點交部分來講是希望能夠有機會考量有一定的修法然後讓人民有一定的方向可以有一定的談判的一個比較公平的方式公平程度來跟建商做協商那"},{"start":6427.729,"end":6452.684,"text":"就做個簡單直接跳結論了那個就是說我是先建議我們還是要加強對於一般管委會管委會的教育跟宣導善用現行已經有存在的制度跟資源然後在以及在爭議衝突計劃的時候能夠適當給予一些專業的資源讓管委會可以使用那以上報告再請各位先進主管好那給指教謝謝"},{"start":6455.005,"end":6457.866,"text":"主席主席好各位先進然後各位理事長委員等等"},{"start":6481.361,"end":6502.619,"text":"其實公寓大廈的研究本身是後進但是也是有緣起因為這邊蠻多的部會跟地方政府其實我都有交流過原因是因為其實我本身也是A7合宜宅的主任委員第一屆主任委員然後那個時候就跟所謂的營建署"},{"start":6503.258,"end":6531.217,"text":"有一些交流過然後也在桃園市公寓拉下坑或者是說我在協助的時候不管是新北的社區或是甚至有新竹的社區有一些公文有一些文也是我擬的所以其實也是跑過點焦大概就是說社區的制度建立真的很辛苦就於管理委員而言本身就很累而且風險很大我先講一下我有七份不起訴署分數"},{"start":6536.397,"end":6556.292,"text":"這個也是起源有很多制度上導致不信任我今天大概就分享一些東西我先講結論好了其實我們我們是學者就會講一些學理但是我因為本身有食物的經驗我們社區是破千戶的社區我先講其實我們在看的時候是第一個社區"},{"start":6558.888,"end":6581.115,"text":"這個社區的這個社群到底是哪些人哪些是在團體內哪些是在團體外我們從公寓大家管理條例當然是現階段學者大部分穩定的見解會說是區權人團體也就是說以區權人為組成但是區權人的時候哪一些真的是真的實質區權人我舉一個例子建商請問保留戶而言建商是不是區權人"},{"start":6586.857,"end":6591.522,"text":"但是從跳出整體社區利益的話他事實上是買賣的相對人買賣的相對人這邊的權力分配本身是有點問題的然後另外一部分我們居全團體有時候是太廣因為沒有考慮到建商的特別的地位有一些是太窄"},{"start":6607.301,"end":6622.533,"text":"太宰是說在整個社區自治的團體裡面其實有一些不是區全能但是他有很大的利害關係例如說我們現在講說區分所有全能會議基本上由區分所有全能所組成但是請問一下獨立車位的產權人"},{"start":6627.497,"end":6655.658,"text":"或者是租戶咧我這樣講為什麼說租戶因為其實現在我們從這個住宅從所謂的自住變成投資其實蠻多社區基本上區學仁是不住在那的但是整個區分所有學仁會議的整個程序包含提案等等其實因為法規並沒有規範所以就變成說住戶有些權益他所謂的正當法律程序程序上的權益事實上被忽略了"},{"start":6657.289,"end":6679.659,"text":"然後最後遊戲規則可能透過區全人就這樣子決議然後產生很大的什麼紛爭很大的紛爭當然我們公益當下管理條例就有一些特別的狀況是有賦予住戶一個所謂程序參加權但它不是一個它不是一個廣泛的規範所以這也是為什麼會吵架像我最近在幫忙處理就是不給店面丟垃圾不給店面丟垃圾然後連非切入心理法都拿出來用了"},{"start":6687.553,"end":6714.702,"text":"甚至有人說這樣官員會收就違法會被罰在區權會上面住戶那個陳住戶要出去講話不好意思你不是區權人所以這個團體我們要先界定哪些是我們人是社區的團體這要先界定這是第一個部分第二個法規部分我要分清楚說哪一些可以做哪些不能做或是哪一些可以很快做"},{"start":6715.632,"end":6738.682,"text":"我們在講法規有所謂的法律跟法規命令其實法規命令會比較快法規會比較慢那這樣子我就大概講一下說有幾個地方事實上我建議說可以主管機關可能可以參考一下我們先想一下在整個公寓大廈裡面除了管委會以外還有很多協力者例如說一開始點交的時候是誰第三方"},{"start":6739.542,"end":6761.919,"text":"但是本人在幫忙社區在審一些契約的時候第三方事實上我們的主管機關對他的規範是連定型化契約條款的範本或者是因記載不得記載事項事實上都沒規範的我舉個例子新竹那個case新竹那個case後來去找第三方驗證其實我有審過那個約"},{"start":6765.751,"end":6775.219,"text":"基本上像因為新竹之前發生過大火防火填塞的問題不好意思在他契約裡面這是不列入檢查事項這麼重要這非常重要啊我就提醒主委說主委你這個要修一下要不要另外加錢那一回事但是你要記得要查"},{"start":6786.977,"end":6811.36,"text":"所以有些這個地方協助的人變主管機關這部分就是沒有做一定的協助的話對消費者事實上是沒有專業能力這是很不利的這也是無法達到所謂的第三方的功能第二個常出現就是物業跟保全物業跟保全也是一樣的狀況事實上是有範本為什麼很多社區跟物業保全會吵架吵弄羞"},{"start":6812.942,"end":6827.027,"text":"其實那個範本上面有一些規範事實上是可以去做調整而且也沒有所謂的因記載跟不得記載事項所以我其實查過有些物業他把那個範本對他不利都拿掉保全也是一樣那個也是對他不利都拿掉而且還有放天價違約金"},{"start":6837.435,"end":6844.561,"text":"天價違約金所以這個事實上是幫忙管委會變成說製造麻煩的人而不是什麼而不是協助的人我當然不是說這邊有理事長我當然不是說你們啦我是說部分的狀況因為我畢竟在處理的時候有看到然後還有像保全也是有他的困難要協助但是對於社區而言最大的問題是有些罰則啦我這樣講"},{"start":6867.418,"end":6874.642,"text":"例如說對於社區最害怕的是我不知道誰來當我的保全白話文 獻金班喔這個有LINE的群組啊我自己也看過欸我那個保全因為現在缺人嘛現在缺人嘛有LINE的群組欸誰要來獻金因為有些人是那個會被強制執行他不敢不敢掛在保全底下啊這個這個這是根本都沒有在規範的啊"},{"start":6897.254,"end":6922.806,"text":"對社區委員很害怕的啊為什麼會吵架因為我管理委員我發現奇怪這些人不是你當初工資給我的OK好然後最後的部分就大概是講說有關於像公下法則細則也可以做像最大的問題例如說像財報吵架為什麼其實事實上是沒有A錢但是每屆委員對於會計科目認定不同"},{"start":6924.224,"end":6936.993,"text":"那個大部分是用公司法那一套齁那個所謂的會計所謂商業會計法那一套不好意思那個法院認為說不適用因為畢竟我講一個最簡單的擇救這件事情在公寓大廈是不可能出現的嘛擇救嘛所以這個也是可以做法規命令的修正齁好然後我大概再給我個兩分鐘我大概講一下就典交的問題啦典交的問題"},{"start":6950.342,"end":6968.255,"text":"事實上我們是法規控缺例如說不動產交易不動產預收買賣契約書應記載事項是直接超公益大廈管理條例第57條但是我們會發覺有個地方很怪就是說專有部分專有部分是有規範要修繕之義務共用之部分不好意思沒有法院對於57條能不能當作請求權基礎是有爭議的"},{"start":6977.222,"end":7002.915,"text":"OK嗎?而且57條本身也有問題因為專有部分可以用尾款去卡共用部分能不能?不行這樣子對於建商而言我們要減少輸送嘛建商就不怕了嘛然後第二個其實建商有很多奇怪的條款例如開放公車試騰點交我有看過或是建商自己利用管理負責人那段時間自己單方點交這樣官員會做認帳"},{"start":7006.556,"end":7033.982,"text":"這個東西在英記載不得竟然事實上都有問題還有建商也會掌控管理會的財政大權例如預收預收六個月的那個所謂的管理費到後來那個管理會成立啊他不給啊他說不好意思齁那是管理費不是公共經濟沒有移交義務啊欸他說契約有定喔契約是這麼定的喔所以我們可以看到說是預收物買賣缺失他只是把共用部分只規範57條這是不夠的"},{"start":7037.254,"end":7065.322,"text":"這個讓管委會在談判上一定要透過訴訟我都跟管委在講反正那個賣生氣你們都簽了嘛對啊文哲用巧的不行就打官司他打很久這大概是就是相關的書面資料裡面大概再講一下最後我要講一下就是其實區那個建商他真的可以干預很多我有看到一個修正案修正草案"},{"start":7068.633,"end":7080.417,"text":"這修正草案是說禁止收委託那個委託書所謂只能代理一戶為主但是要考慮一下第一次去搭住戶之間是不認識的但是建商還是有保留戶這樣我們小鄉也無法聚成啊"},{"start":7086.889,"end":7101.777,"text":"一切的規定從所謂的預售物買賣紀念書的範本炒約等等到管委會區大開會等等到後面的所謂可決數32條的五分之一等等不好意思喔建商只要10%就可以說一件的事情了甚至我們公立單位管理條例只規定了表決權沒有規定選舉權五分之一限制不及於選舉權"},{"start":7113.291,"end":7116.615,"text":"這就是為什麼民間會傳出建商怎麼控制管委會這個權力分配本身就出問題哪些是團體內哪些是團體外最後我提到最後一件事這個是請各位自己看好像網路上的"},{"start":7130.762,"end":7153.332,"text":"最後我要提到一件事是說其實公寓大廈的管理是都市計畫的一部分我相信嘛它是一個階層但是我們的修繕權限對管理會最頭痛的是重大修繕我說白話一點我們社區那麼大每次消防檢查一檢查出來就是八十萬重大修繕幾萬 三十萬我要開區大嗎"},{"start":7158.079,"end":7184.42,"text":"因為也講得很清楚啦,一天到晚都開不成啦要不要修?出事了國安委會會不會被告?可是不好意思,重大修善跟公共經濟使用權和核准全都在區大我在修的時候,甚至我們社區也有電信室燒起來對外聯繫權斷要不是我本身念法律的,就說這個東西應該要趕快修事後再追認,可是有幾個族,國安委會敢這麼做"},{"start":7186.616,"end":7207.824,"text":"沒有例外條款啦包含頂樓漏水也是一樣法院也是寫啊這個通常事情可以慢慢決議啊侵權行為不能慢慢決議啊這個是涉及到所謂的群體關係嘛好大概就這樣啦詳細的部分是希望說以後有機會再跟各位學者專家互相交換意見謝謝好謝謝我們黃之堅助理教授下一位我們請台中市物業管理協會黃正德理事長發言"},{"start":7231.395,"end":7232.275,"text":"主席各位貴賓我是台中市務會管理協會理事長目前擔任我們台中市爭議條署委員會的委員那我剛剛借很多先進有講過的我們條例裡面"},{"start":7257.423,"end":7270.718,"text":"第18條只有公共基金沒有講到管理會只有規約裡面有寫到管理會所以說這個管理會是不是要把他納到條例裡面"},{"start":7271.803,"end":7289.757,"text":"很重要就是說如果以基金我們條例49條不繳就可以罰了可是管理會管理會要經過兩期的催收我這個是歸裡面那個那個才有管理會的管理會的那我們在七分所有錢大樓裡面大樓裡面常常的糾紛就是失權"},{"start":7300.526,"end":7310.96,"text":"所以說剛剛我們處長有講到我們中央訂了很多很好的有沒有去落實這個最重要最重要所以說規約呢"},{"start":7313.167,"end":7331.604,"text":"規約是我們自治管理的一部分可是規約是不是很重要?協來訂定是不是很重要?所以說有的我剛剛有講到剛剛大家都是物位管理公司對不對?可是我要糾正一下我們根本沒有物位這兩個字"},{"start":7334.244,"end":7354.655,"text":"我們在大樓裡面是保全公司跟公益大廈管理維護公司所以說為什麼大家都統稱為物業我們在講物業就是保全跟公益大廈所以說這個部分是不是也要把它訂正一下是不是物業到底要不要把它統稱物業 要不要統稱物業"},{"start":7359.246,"end":7383.1,"text":"在這個糾紛裡面大家講到說要自治管理我們處長剛剛也講到要回歸住戶的自治管理可是住戶具有專業性嗎一般的管理公司管理公司的專業性有的就不足了所以這個要做什麼中央有義務責任要教育"},{"start":7383.993,"end":7409.228,"text":"教育我們的社區的委員教育我們管理公司的各階層幹部譬如說事務委員的政策你怎麼發他拿到一個政策就去執行大樓可是他對大廈管理條例都一知半解那管理條例我們有設定很多很多正義性的很多"},{"start":7410.011,"end":7438.765,"text":"都各自解讀才會衍生到爭議很多比如說我們管理公司有的在開會的時候召集人召集人到底是人還是管委會還是公司當然是人對不對可是很多都寫管委會召集人很多都寫那個建設公司起召人起召人沒進去喔就寫建設公司召集人還有更扯的"},{"start":7439.707,"end":7458.722,"text":"有的建設公司有信託對不對那這個召集人是誰我這個都要把它擬清楚那我們內政部營建署有個函令沒有召集人的會議是無效對不對那他通知的時候沒召集人根本無效"},{"start":7460.356,"end":7486.57,"text":"如果去舉話你們會認定嗎會認定嗎所以說爭議點是很多的比如說我們在條例裡面有很多都是各自解讀譬如說第10條第12條還有還有我們我講個例子我們大樓有一般灑水系統對不對那灑水系統是專有部分還是約定專用還是共用我這個"},{"start":7489.673,"end":7512.001,"text":"大家都各自解讀因為在建築法規裡面11樓以上才要有灑水系統跟那個商家那個才要設置灑水系統那這個灑水系統如果是區分所有的專有的人把它關掉怎麼辦怎麼辦這個就是要把它擬清楚擬清楚"},{"start":7517.933,"end":7540.471,"text":"還有再來有一種不解的地方就是馬桶馬桶的下方的排水是不是是不是以前舊的就在樓下的那個那個那個浴室的坐著那個天花板在上面那個熱水在以條例裡面就是要共同來分擔可是樓下的有新湖嗎他說你樓上在在用使用的熱水為什麼"},{"start":7547.833,"end":7566.404,"text":"我要來分擔所以說這個種種種種是不是是不是要把它寫的說清楚講明白不要才會產生爭議我再舉個例子35條對不對我們住戶都可以利害關係人都可以去影印對不對有人要去影印什麼呢那個合約書主委不給影印那個區前人的簽到簿主委不給"},{"start":7576.601,"end":7604.482,"text":"那這個是不是在條例裡面或者我們解釋函裡面把它弄得比較清楚一點才不會產生那個爭議好那我從第一項怎麼去紓解對經費不足當然大樓大樓在三十五十年以後在外牆的脫落外牆的部分修山就比較多那這我建議政府要去編訂"},{"start":7606.484,"end":7625.802,"text":"編訂這些預算還有你要納入法條將管理會提撥基金的要不要一定要強制這個就是以後修繕的問題再來如何降低7分所有錢人會議的爭議7分所有錢人會議的決議"},{"start":7630.203,"end":7641.589,"text":"現在很多剛剛我們那個黃教授也講到多數暴力對不對你店面的管理會以前都是打折現在把它調成百分之百所以說我們要把它講得很清楚為什麼店面會打折為什麼你不給店面丟垃圾這個就是產生正義的問題還有初期決議的人數比例計算"},{"start":7657.827,"end":7686.15,"text":"尤其在區權會比例計算決議比例計算很不好計算很不好計算因為大家用舉手表決或書面表決都沒有比例都沒有比例我直接來進入我們政府的協助典交57條規定的很詳細水電機電設施消防設施各管線"},{"start":7687.121,"end":7714.224,"text":"進行檢測確認政府單位沒落實都去什麼去改個章你檢查好了沒有檢查好了沒有去改個章這個其實你們規定的很清楚要去會同見證點交會同去檢測有沒有所以說中央一定要建立一套點交的SOP標準作業流程"},{"start":7715.248,"end":7739.805,"text":"社區的委員有利可行有利可行再來現行我們我們要委託委託第三方的公正典交部分包含土建還有我們實際上我們委託第三方來檢查的時候累了一千多條的的缺失這個也是不合理這個也是不合理是不是我們"},{"start":7740.646,"end":7760.804,"text":"要做一個很明確的這個電政典交的委託廠商是不是誰來支付當然管委會一直說講你建商有賺錢是不是建商來支付那有的建商是事先就請機電消防來做檢討報告了可是管委會不信任他"},{"start":7762.163,"end":7787.708,"text":"是不是也建請建商要做的時候等管委會來再來一起做不要花兩條錢還有最大的爭議最大的爭議就是剛剛我們黃教授的預收管理會合約書買賣合約書有時候預收管理會他可以支出所以說在未成立管委會之前建商都把這些錢花光了"},{"start":7788.427,"end":7814.216,"text":"因為有一所管理會那站在管委會的立場是你應該是從管委會成立以後這個經費才是由管委會來支付之前的之前你請的管理公司這個錢應該是建商來支出為什麼呢因為第一你在做房屋點交的時候也是在服務替公司在服務"},{"start":7815.506,"end":7843.197,"text":"第二你建商裡面的設備設施誰在看管也是在幫你看管不是幫管委會幫管委會是管委會成立以後才再來做這個事情所以說我是建議在未成立管委會前建商要來支付這個管理福威這把納入法條納入法條還有在最後最後因為"},{"start":7844.375,"end":7871.038,"text":"講到典交問題有的社區一點就是一年兩年三年就是典交產生那個糾紛再來我們最後那個我們第28條有規定建物登記建物登記一半以上三個月內要召開成立管理委員會這個也不明確為什麼不明確這個"},{"start":7873.328,"end":7891.863,"text":"一半以上是指過戶完一半以上還是家屋完一半以上這個也要很明確的好 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們黃振德理事長的發言下一位我們請台北市預管商業同業工會 白惠斌理事長發言"},{"start":7900.924,"end":7920.817,"text":"主席還有我們在座所有的先生女士大家好我想剛剛所有的專家學者應該報告很多了我比較從比較大的方向來談這個事情我先介紹一下我從事這個行業快30年了"},{"start":7922.874,"end":7949.444,"text":"擔任縣市的爭議調除委員會也8年到9年的時間了從開始立法我就擔任爭議委員會的委員到現在那我們大家覺得公益大廈的問題好像非常的多不過我以15的這個經驗從事30年跟8年的爭議委員到目前為止"},{"start":7950.6,"end":7978.225,"text":"我還是非常肯定我們現在這一步的這個這個管理條例因為目前大概真正的爭議我認為不會超過太多的比例因為我們也服務這個現場很多社區這麼久所以我想第一個先跟大家報告這一步的這個管理條例我想大部分"},{"start":7979.212,"end":8005.839,"text":"已經把目前所有的這個事件大概都有做一個規範但是因為公寓大廈本身本來就是包羅萬象他沒辦法規範到所有的法律所以呢適用相關法律的時候呢我相信他就可以用其他的法律譬如說民法去解決那剛剛各位專家學者所指教的呢我在這邊再補充幾個重點第一個"},{"start":8008.783,"end":8032.923,"text":"我覺得今天八個提綱我認為還是回到社區自治的精神有些部分可能不太適合特別為它去考慮因為我想公共利益的立場剛剛大家也都知道公益大廈管理條例從84年到現在30週年歷經了很多次的調整"},{"start":8033.979,"end":8058.233,"text":"修正但是呢都是小修啦剛剛我們這個林老師特別提到都是碰到重大災難才會修啦都是小修一條兩條那我不曉得大院這邊應該了解我們主管機關在2013年大規模的召集了所有的專家"},{"start":8059.608,"end":8071.596,"text":"也討論出一個大修的版本大概從16個方向如果那個版本通過今天8個提綱大概應該全部解決了我還是建請大院聽說連委員會還沒有排進去"},{"start":8079.468,"end":8093.661,"text":"那可能可以跟這個國土署這邊來了解一下2013年有一個大討論的版本那個我想林老師應該也很清楚那我們所有的專家學者已經討論過N次了"},{"start":8095.603,"end":8119.2,"text":"但是就是排不進立法院也利用這個30週年在這個地方懇請大院把那個版本拿出來其實有很多都可以解決我想這第一個我先說了第二個我想我們在這些爭議事件裡面有一些社區的爭議事件裡面以我實務從事爭議調處委員的立場來看"},{"start":8123.393,"end":8151.007,"text":"原則上其實也沒有什麼大問題其實就是公民參與不足的問題包括比例 包括什麼其實我們也有授權規約可以去制定所以各個公寓大廈你可以根據你自己本身的特性要調高門檻 降低門檻我想這個都是有解的目前的法律條例都是有解的"},{"start":8151.687,"end":8171.046,"text":"所以我覺得沒有特別需要為了這個事情特別再拿出來討論因為就回到這個社區自治的精神包括他經費不足經費不足如果我們給他給予補助或給他政府有什麼其實這公平正義立場是不應該的"},{"start":8173.069,"end":8193.004,"text":"那我是不是每個管理會在繳的時候就故意繳低一點然後讓政府來補助所以這個是不可行的啦這是不可行的不過有些部分我覺得倒還是可以在藉由這一次30週年討論的時候在立法的時候特別去考慮譬如說包括長期修繕的部分"},{"start":8194.233,"end":8208.41,"text":"長期修繕的部分應該要給公益大廈所有的委員會因為他們其實都是不太清楚慢慢學習不過已經這個學習效能越來越好了很多公益大廈已經很上軌道譬如說"},{"start":8209.622,"end":8235.001,"text":"我們實務經驗是這樣 大概約當你收的管理費大概七成付給這個事務管理人跟保全 人力的部分兩成是在做一般的開銷 十個Percent當作公共基金提撥可是呢 很多公益大廈他在一開始的時候都是期待我少繳一點啦 可是他沒有長期修正的觀念"},{"start":8235.523,"end":8256.27,"text":"但長期修繕這對於未來延老又變成這個延老的問題所以我覺得還是要鼓勵公益大廈做一個標準讓不管你管理會怎麼收但是你一定要有一定比例提撥公共基金修繕基金我覺得這個才是根本之道"},{"start":8257.711,"end":8273.082,"text":"那其他的部分呢我想大家都提過了不過有些部分還是可以專案去補助啦這是專案補助的立場不是固定這個立法譬如說跟公共安全有關的"},{"start":8274.099,"end":8298.793,"text":"比如說外牆 延老 老舊社區這個我想政府如果行為餘力還是可以撥一些預算來鼓勵公益大廈從事整個外牆維修的部分鼓勵他或者是剛我提到我們整個公益大廈實施到現在最大的問題就是公民參與不足為什麼參與不足基金很多的搶著要 搶著競選然後長期把持"},{"start":8302.884,"end":8328.453,"text":"基金不夠的你怎麼推都沒有人要出來當委員所以整個鼓勵公民參與這件事情目前的經費只有在文化部文化部有提撥叫做社區營造的經費但是社區營造的經費我覺得還是比較大的program大家還是搞不太清楚你要弄了很多的補助的計畫才能夠去申請"},{"start":8329.926,"end":8354.218,"text":"那我覺得這個倒是可以回到主管機關國土署這邊因為文化部離公立大廈有點遠因為那是在社區營造的部分那來鼓勵公民參與我覺得這才是根本解決這個問題的地方那再來最後一點我要建議我當了八年的正義調處委員老實講真的工人不髒為什麼工人不髒因為"},{"start":8356.451,"end":8364.969,"text":"沒有人最後來協調結果是我一方不來我就協調不成立了所以他沒有強制力所以是不是加強爭議調出委員會"},{"start":8368.537,"end":8389.284,"text":"這個的部分的功能我記得大院好像也有人建議這個討論過這個議題就是怎麼樣去讓他在調處的結果視同司法判決一審判決因為就有點檢疫法庭的味道來解決這個爭議事件的問題以上 謝謝好 謝謝黃耀兵理事長的發言下一位我們請中華民國預管權聯會高敏進理事長發言"},{"start":8415.447,"end":8442.069,"text":"主席以及各位在座的學者專家 大家好我是中華民國工藝大廈管理維護商業同業工會全國聯合會理事長 高敏靜我想在這裡我就是回應一下剛剛我們這個台北市工藝大廈管理維護商業同業工會潘瑞斌理事長的這個意見"},{"start":8445.404,"end":8458.611,"text":"那我們在其實應該在2011年的時候那個時候就是那時候是營建署應該是高文廷組長還有我們的朱慶倫的副組長"},{"start":8462.333,"end":8477.341,"text":"就是原定應該是在那一年5月開始已經啟動了再一次就是針對102年的這個法令還有加上一些我們全國的這個縣市政府各個公寓大廈這個"},{"start":8479.622,"end":8493.987,"text":"建管單位的意見以及有一些我們這個業界的產業聯盟的這個工協會的意見原本是在那一年的五月一直到"},{"start":8494.927,"end":8522.061,"text":"重啟這個修法的進度預定是在當年度的年底希望能夠讓他受利潤能夠通過可是因為疫情來了之後就把這個修法這個部分又耽擱了所以我也回應一下就是趁著真的在這個30年的時候我們希望這個公益大家管理的這個條例能夠盡速的能夠排入議程"},{"start":8523.922,"end":8549.197,"text":"那我想針對剛剛就是各位專家學者所反映的這些意見的確公益大壓管理條例其實它這是一個自治的精神所以有一些它的這個的確我們這個政府的力量除了在現有的公益大壓管理整部的這個條例其實它是非常足夠的"},{"start":8550.899,"end":8568.249,"text":"我們全國的公益大廈管理維護公司的這個因應業者預計這個條例到目前為止其實它是非常夠用的當然還有一些小部分其實真的可以去做這個調整補修那我想大概也針對一些議題我也大概說明一下"},{"start":8578.703,"end":8604.841,"text":"其實這個公寓大廈管理經費不足這個部分我想大家都是現在都是管理委會都是量入為出所以我也贊成最重要的就是必須要的一個長期修正這個是攸關於現在政府一直在推的都更圍牢公共安全甚至可能是消防等等的這些管理維護"},{"start":8606.386,"end":8629.955,"text":"這些運作所以我想長期修正這個立法我覺得是贊成的這個是一個可行的方向另外就是區分所有權人會議爭議其實我們現在對於區分所有權人的資格參與代理等等這些都有一個很清楚的一個規範所以這個並不會有問題我想"},{"start":8635.684,"end":8657.312,"text":"這個社區裡面的爭議常常我們自己產業非常清楚有時候真的就是可能就是委員之間的派系對立或者是利益的這樣一個派系的對立我想這個部分並不是我們公權力可以去解決的"},{"start":8659.353,"end":8679.195,"text":"至於在爭議調解我想就誠如剛剛潘理事長所講的我們現在的調解其實除了區公所還有各個縣市都有爭議調解委員會甚至如果說你可能就爭議調解不成那當然就是進入訴訟"},{"start":8680.922,"end":8691.694,"text":"這是又是曠日廢吃所以我想如果能夠把這個爭議調解的這個把它的這個法制性能夠加強一下入法我覺得這個也是可行的另外就是公益大廈這個點椒的這個食物"},{"start":8702.938,"end":8731.44,"text":"那我們就是在新的這個建築物 新的比如預售屋或者新的建物由起造人負責檢測的責任可是我們工藝大管理卻沒有針對這個部分去明定這個費用由誰來負擔所以我建議可以把這個由起造人檢測的責任把它明定這個費用是不是由起造人來負擔"},{"start":8735.051,"end":8739.213,"text":"這個就會維持典交的程序能夠順利進行另外就是公益大廈我們平常管理公司的評選我想我們各個縣市政府都有在經常舉辦公益大廈管理"},{"start":8759.344,"end":8769.634,"text":"這個優良公寓大廈的社區以及優良公寓大廈管理公司的這個評選我想我們等一下在座的也有幾位的這個專家他們都是這個評選的這個委員所以我想"},{"start":8775.621,"end":8797.832,"text":"還有我們各個縣市政府針對一些補助方案裡面其實現在都有其實有一些縣市政府它有提供外牆修繕的補助還有公共區域維護修繕的補助甚至可能是社區裡面的潛能設備的補助其實我想各個縣市政府都非常用心"},{"start":8799.462,"end":8821.053,"text":"他們當然就是在經費可以許可而且也鼓勵尤其是我們現在全國的老舊建築物幾乎30年以上幾乎達到500萬戶所以這一個我們也看到這個縣市政府在這個公益大家管理上琢磨其實也是非常的用心那另外就是如果"},{"start":8827.183,"end":8855.882,"text":"現行公益大樓管理的這個標準的作業流程我想我們代表就是全國所有公益大樓管理公司其實我們都知道我們社區一進駐的時候我們就一定會擬定一個社區一個全能度行事曆以及長期修繕等等的這些所有的現在的標準作業流程現在不管是社區各個方面的設施設備其實我們已經走上專業分工"},{"start":8857.588,"end":8881.105,"text":"如果這些標準作業流程我想全聯會這邊可以提供一些我們這個業界的管理實務這些標準化的作業流程我們可以把這個實務上當然可以提供出來讓我們的主管機關來做參考以及如果有需要的這些社區可以去作為一個參考使用"},{"start":8888.243,"end":8896.092,"text":"我想站在一個 全國聯合會的一個角度來看我覺得目前為止 供應大廈管理我們這個產業我有幾點的建議我覺得現在呢 老舊建物這麼多"},{"start":8903.513,"end":8917.614,"text":"我們應該 我想現在縣市政府我想都有在成立 輔導成立公益大廈管理委員會的這樣一個我想我們在座也有幾位專家他是承攬這個成立管理委員會的這個組織"},{"start":8920.198,"end":8939.154,"text":"如果這個老舊公寓它並沒有成立管理組織你更不要談既然沒有組織更談不上說要去落實任何社區自治的這樣的一個權利所以加速成立老舊公寓大廈成立管理委員會這個組織我認為必須要持續的推動"},{"start":8945,"end":8957.964,"text":"另外就是危險老舊建築物的推動更新修繕管理這個是必須要持續的能夠來政府來繼續推動然後維持這個公共安全的管理第三個我們最近很夯的一個議題就是高層大樓的防災室剛剛我想前面專家也有提到高層大樓的防災室"},{"start":8974.878,"end":8999.973,"text":"因為去年新竹的一個社區的失火我們可以看到這個高層的防災室現在又被重視起來這個本來法律是有的但是現在就是嚴格執行之下我想有一個問題是我們防災室我們公益大廈管理人員我們願意去配合但是這個"},{"start":9002.641,"end":9023.959,"text":"委訓的單位其實是不足的非常不足現在全國只有三個單位因為消防局把這個訓練的這個責任現在劃歸給民間來做甚至於昨天一位高雄市的議員提出來現在去上一個防災室的一個訓練課程要7200塊那請問這個費用這麼高到底由誰來買單"},{"start":9030.25,"end":9047.141,"text":"我們從業人員他是不能負擔起的這對他而言是非常大的一個負擔所以我建議就是說這個防災室的這個訓練我希望在我們這裡大院我們能夠去協調各部會甚至消防局這邊來解決這個困難還有另外一點"},{"start":9054.27,"end":9079.159,"text":"現在有一個現象就是所謂的物業管理公司他也可以承攬社區的公益大廈管理我知道有一個有一個有一個比如說以基隆市來講他要成立公益大廈這個當地的維護商業同業工會可是礙於因為找不到這個公益大廈管理公司願意加入為什麼"},{"start":9080.165,"end":9097.83,"text":"因為他們只要憑著一個物業管理公司他就可以去承攬社區的這個管理的業務然後藉此規避所有我們應該遵守的一些法令所以這一點物業管理公司他去承攬社區的這個"},{"start":9099.315,"end":9117.882,"text":"管理的業務 我認為這一點我想我們必須要能夠正視這個問題希望能夠杜絕讓我們真正合法的公益大廈管理業者能夠在這個政府的監督執行政府的法令之下能夠真正把我們這個管理的這個公益大廈管理產業能夠做好另外還有最後一點建議就是針對公益大廈管理服務人員的職能因為我們現在回訊"},{"start":9128.991,"end":9152.39,"text":"跟職前訓練的這個課程都是非常制式的而且非常久了都是那一套的教材一直不變所以我也建議說這個課程是不是能夠為請專家學者一起來匯集能夠針對現在的實務跟法令能夠去做成一個真正能夠有用的不管是職前或者是在職這樣一個訓練的課程"},{"start":9155.606,"end":9166.435,"text":"好我想就在針對代表全國工業大管理產業的工會的這個我是提出上述幾點的這個建議喔好謝謝好謝謝我們高明進理事長的發言下一位我們請陽明交大建築研究所這個柯慧聖助理教授"},{"start":9186.188,"end":9211.349,"text":"主席還有各位先進還有我們各位長官大家好我是陽明紮嶽建築所柯佩勝今天很榮幸能夠來參加我們這個公聽會之前我們很多的先進講得非常多我想我就開始今天議題然後來表達我自己個人的一個看法第一個就是我們對於這個公聽大會不足為問題"},{"start":9213.12,"end":9240.409,"text":"那基本上呢我們最近幾年的這個房價就偏高所以大家都以這個建築物的一般的維護那大家都能夠去藉經濟能力呢他都能夠去支持但是呢有些老舊公寓他有這種一個困難那事實上呢在之前先進有提到過這一個是比較有私利益的部分那這個公部門要投入多少"},{"start":9241.355,"end":9268.406,"text":"那這個是值得考量我倒建議說我們現在的這個國家住宅中心那他現在在推動我們社會住宅那也許呢在經費的通知之下他還可以進一步去跟這個比較老舊社區的屋主那他們去談這個都更的重建或是先這個架構然後做社會住宅那以後呢再做這個都市的一個更新重建這是我個人的看法"},{"start":9269.431,"end":9282.014,"text":"那第二個呢 怎麼降低這個軍售權會議的一個爭議那這部分呢 事實上是 我想這個是我們今天公立會議很重要的一個重點那這個軍售權會議呢 是我們這個公立大廈這個軍售權共同體的最高級的機構所以他要做一個決議 也就是說我們這些共同體"},{"start":9291.737,"end":9316.639,"text":"這些全體的軍售全人要做方面的一個意思表示他要經由一定的程序然後來做一個決議那這個程序呢事實上就是一個意思規則或是我們講的一個會議規範那雖然我們在這個條例第三章裡面有提到過這方面的一個規定那但是呢他的一個組織他的一個組成他並不是以這個軍統會議的"},{"start":9320.197,"end":9331.422,"text":"過程的一個流程來排序所以我是建議就是說這個我們如果能夠去主管機關能夠訂一個區分所有人會議的一事規則範本那這個對於這個從事人員也好對於這個區分所有權人或官員會也好我想這個幫助都很大那另外就是說我們在條例裡面對主席尤其對這個區分所有權人提案權"},{"start":9350.903,"end":9373.636,"text":"然後異常秩序等等它沒有文明的規定那這個也沒有關係那這個也可以在我們的規約裡面來訂定那我們規範本對作畫面也似乎沒有詳細的規範那這個也可以提供日後我們在修規範本的時候也可以加進去或是在條例修正的時候也可以把它加上去那我現在看到的比較多的爭議的問題"},{"start":9380.424,"end":9408.587,"text":"有幾個 第一個就是提案前被剝奪那第二個就是主席沒有明文的規定那再來異常失去那第四個就是會議通知或是會議記錄的這個送達等等這個是我們常看到的一些爭議的一個部分那我們建議呢除了剛剛這一個建議我們主管機關來訂定這個遵守會議的議事規劃方便以外那還有另外一個就是管理委員會的議事規則"},{"start":9410.392,"end":9417.878,"text":"範本也能夠訂定因為這個群眾會議的議事的規範我們條例它規定了一半所以這個有賴於我們規約來去做加強另外我們管理會議的議事規則事實上我們條例只有一個條文所以這個東西這部分由這個規約或群眾會議去規定"},{"start":9435.146,"end":9456.048,"text":"那我想如果能夠有這方面的一個範本的時候呢我想會更好那另外就是說在推廣這方面的觀念的時候呢也能夠做一些這個議事流程的一個這個短片那推廣這方面的一個知識然後提升這個效率降低9分"},{"start":9459.571,"end":9464.173,"text":"再來就是說現在的這個線上系統那現在軟體很多但是比較少針對於我們這個群眾會議能夠去適用的一個線上系統或許我們主管機關也可以來製造一個這方面的系統免費的來供這個社區來使用那這個也可以這樣藏好那今天第三個議題就是管理委員會的這個糾紛"},{"start":9489.642,"end":9517.607,"text":"準備去排解或是協助好那第一個呢我認為就是說以現在來講我們管理委員會委員或是主委那大部分對於我們這方面的法令條例的規定事實上他的認知的程度還不是很多所以呢我們除了在培訓我們這個管理服務人員以外呢事實也能夠開班然後呢"},{"start":9518.28,"end":9535.471,"text":"來培訓這個公益大家主任委員我們可以前面先做這方面的一些的教材然後進一步開班讓有心能夠加入委員會的委員能夠來接觸比較專業性的一個訓練另外一個就是我們這個條署委員會"},{"start":9544.807,"end":9558.122,"text":"那我擔心泰文會也將近一二十年的時間那我的心得是有兩個第一個就是說他的一個效率上是不錯的是不錯的雖然他沒有一個法定的一個效率但是呢很多的糾紛就基於雙方對法定認知的不同"},{"start":9566.367,"end":9582.006,"text":"所以這個東西我是給他一個高定的肯定所以第一個那第二個呢我倒覺得他的效率不髒為什麼呢因為這個我們這個特殊委員會呢他的主稱就是有長官學然後各種不同的專業人員組成然後一開會就十幾位委員在那一邊好那也就是說"},{"start":9586.479,"end":9612.57,"text":"他的這一個開會的一個效率那如果我們能夠去參照這一個鄉鎮市調解條例第七條的規定他只要有三個委員出席經過就可以開會了也就是說我們可以針對於這一個爭議事件的屬性然後安排有幾位對這方面有這一個專業背景的這一個委員然後來組成這一個調處"},{"start":9615.264,"end":9643.727,"text":"這個是當時可以參考好那對第一點呢就是這個臨選合作廠商呢我想就是說這一個呢我們加強我們目前屬裡面的這個入伙網能夠呢公布一些不合格的主動公布不合格的這個管理公司那另外一個呢就是能夠去制定這一個工業大廈這一個採購企業的範本那也可以給設計來做參考那順便能夠設置一個"},{"start":9646.078,"end":9665.365,"text":"這個採購網這個是我們第四點的一個建議那第五點呢就是公設典交那事實上我們現在五十七條的這個公設典交呢事實上它是一個行政的典交而不是一個私權典交那這個假設私人典交它占百分之百那我們五十七條的行政典交大概占百分之七十因為它還有行政法"},{"start":9666.454,"end":9695.932,"text":"所以我是覺得這兩個要把它分清楚需不需要我們供應條例適應到事前點交我想這個是一個法律制度面的一個問題那第六個我們現在提示要哪一些呢那主席的容許我把這講這個是最重要的就第一個事實上我們現在主管機關我們這一個國土署主管機關的這一個預算不足人也不足我想這一個是能夠再去加強那第二個也是"},{"start":9697.227,"end":9723.412,"text":"幾位先進所有提到過我們現在的一個教材好幾年都沒有更新法律都是舊的我也建議說這個能夠趕快去更新一個好的教材那第三個就是回訊的制度那回訊制度呢是這個有16個小時那這個但是它是採取集中上課的一個方式那我相信呢"},{"start":9724.27,"end":9752.388,"text":"這一個8加8的一個上課的一個情況他的效果一定是不是很好不是很好而且五年前的教材跟五年後教材都一樣可能講的人都是一樣聽的學員都是一樣這個是一個問題事實上我們是採取可以採取一個積分制譬如說像這個建築師像其他的這方面的一個專業技師他們的一個做法採取積分制的一個制度"},{"start":9754.278,"end":9783.47,"text":"那另外呢就是說這一個我們管理費的這一個收取的一個金額好那常常有時候呢我們在規裡面會有一個空白授權的規定就是我們就是管理會就授權這一個管理委員會是自訂好那這個東西呢是說在我們這一個第四條裡面呢能夠來證定管理會不可以授權由管理會或是管理副鎮來訂定這個是一樣的建議那第六個呢也是今天我覺得最重要的一個"},{"start":9784.434,"end":9810.325,"text":"一個議題一個主題就是說我們現在區域所有權制度尚未完善那什麼意思呢我們在這個民國18年的時候我們799-800就有承認區域所有權所以呢我們在台灣雖然從台灣本土裡面就沒有所謂的一物一權的制度我們就是一物多權的一個制度這是第一個那經過66年以後呢在民國84年我們在訂入公共大會管理條例的一個一個這個"},{"start":9812.779,"end":9826.786,"text":"法律然後呢針對專有部分我們做出明確的一個定義但是呢在這個16年以後在我們98年在修訂民法務全篇的時候好那我們在這個799條對專有部分也做一個定義但問題是兩個定義不一樣就差一個這一個構造上的獨立性以產生為目前這個行政機關對專有部分的認定"},{"start":9842.11,"end":9866.004,"text":"跟這個大部分法院的判決會不一樣尤其是外牆的全署我是認為說已經16年的已經16年了那這一國兩制的這個法律制度什麼時候可以結束那這個問題比較大因為還進行到這個司法院法院的問題那我想是不是大家能可以重視這個這個問題"},{"start":9869.11,"end":9878.778,"text":"那最後呢就是這個最後呢就是很感謝很感謝這一個委員能夠這一個來開這一個公聽會讓我們民間讓有這個機會然後表達我們的看法意見以上謝謝好謝謝柯貴聖教授下一位我們請社團法人台灣社區培力學會陳世宏執行長發言"},{"start":9901.288,"end":9928.847,"text":"主席還有各位先進大家早上好那我先自我介紹一下我是台灣社區培育協會的執行長那我有擔任過公益大廈500多戶的主任委員然後也擔任目前擔任四個縣市的公益大廈爭議事業調組委員那也擔任了我們管理服務人的培訓講師那我為什麼要講這些不是在凸顯一個問題我在凸顯一個什麼東西我今天來到這邊我自己成為專家學者我覺得蠻汗顏的"},{"start":9931.688,"end":9954.256,"text":"主要是大學的教授 博士級以上的才可以參加 參加中大學的可是我們公益大廈沒有博士啊 為什麼台灣的所有的公益大廈的學系全部死光光啦所以這個 這個為什麼我們沒辦法去提升我們的公益大廈呢因為我們這些人可以讓民眾幸福嗎我不知道 我自己對我自己是打一個問號啦齁"},{"start":9955.316,"end":9965.64,"text":"所以說這個部分我先提我沒有要冒犯各位先進的一個意思這個是我們值得去思考的一個問題這也是我們要提供給我們主辦單位的我們如果要提供一個提升一個產業一個事情的時候是不是應該要從專家學者專業的角度去切入那這個部分的話"},{"start":9976.485,"end":9993.96,"text":"是不是應該要強化我們所謂的大學的部分的相關的參觀的科系甚至於說如果公寓大廈管理條例是跟我們的人的生活息息相關的時候是不是要延伸到我們小學教育跟社會的公民的教育裡面去讓他們從小"},{"start":9995.481,"end":10014.885,"text":"就可以體會到所謂的公益大廈的區分所有群眾會議的這些問題好這是我要先說明的第二個延續剛才兩位工會的理事長說明的我個人教了這個總幹事十幾年了我個人認為公益大廈目前的版本的公益大管理已經十分完善了啦"},{"start":10015.365,"end":10023.728,"text":"那是什麼問題呢是人的理解性的問題跟執行上面的一個問題而且我建議一個法的安定性如果說我們對現行的法律已經不夠了解"},{"start":10030.731,"end":10045.568,"text":"已經沒辦法去了解你不斷的去修改它你更不了解它那你這樣子的話是不是有點有點本末倒置我們是不是應該像要讓民眾先了解我們現行這部法律它的真正的用意是什麼意思是什麼"},{"start":10046.829,"end":10064.766,"text":"那如果有不足的地方我們再來加以修正不過有一些有涉及到時代的進步像充電樁啊這些東西是值得要去修改的因為什麼因為現在他們的目前的條例的規定是不符合我們整個政府的一個一個所謂的綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠這個是有必要修改那其他的我們應該要從加強民眾的一個法律的一個認知上面"},{"start":10072.273,"end":10095.438,"text":"尤其是管理服務人的一個一個本職學員的一個強化裡面才去著手那在執行的過程裡面才可以去深刻的體會到到底民眾你想想看民眾了解了以後我們才會知道法律不足的地方嘛民眾對法律都不了解我們幾個人就說這個法律不足我覺得這個是也有點也有點需要打一個問號的一個地方好那針對幾個問題呢第一個"},{"start":10097.839,"end":10121.613,"text":"有管理經費不足的問題剛剛有理事長也提出來嘛私領域你們覺得我們大家覺得私領域適合拿很多的公務部門的資源進去嗎管理費不足就調到管理費那個就是他們自務自治嘛而且重點是要有一個地方所有的民眾知不知道政府部門相關的局處有編列相關的預算在補助公務大廈不知道"},{"start":10122.273,"end":10142.743,"text":"我坦白跟各位講四年前我出來擔任我們社區的主任委員我一年可以跟新北市政府申請一百三十幾萬的補助回去這樣子哪有什麼金費不足的問題如果說這些訊息能夠適時的傳達到所謂的所有的工業大廈的民眾那唯一需要提補助的是什麼"},{"start":10143.523,"end":10167.813,"text":"現在因為城中城大火在福島的老舊公寓大廈這個是需要去檢討的因為他們就是沒有錢沒有錢那怎麼檢討呢我會覺得應該給予所謂的利息補貼或者是他成立了以後成立了以後那我們從內政部去跟銀行協商是不是可以給那些老舊公寓大廈因為什麼他一成立馬上面臨建築公關廠要申報消防設施設備檢修申報的修繕這些人"},{"start":10171.795,"end":10175.919,"text":"他們一聽到這個就嚇死了我成立我當主委又是馬上抓去關我沒有錢啊你馬上要我面臨這個問題那你說政府部門無止盡的去編列預算補助我覺得這個是也是沒辦法"},{"start":10187.631,"end":10210.844,"text":"沒辦法完全的那是不是可以請銀行給他們所謂的免息的貸款或者是內政部給予所謂的一個利息補貼的一個部分那再來就是有關於爭議事件調處的部分的話有關於兩個爭議事件的糾紛的話我贊成剛才我們工會的理事長所提議的因為我本身擔任四個縣市的爭議事件調處委員會的委員我跟你講"},{"start":10215.047,"end":10237.545,"text":"以台北市來講啦一個月調一次只有4萬到5萬啦你覺得這樣子叫做台北市天下太平嗎這個重點是什麼沒有人知道有這個調出委員會啊沒有人知道啊不是說大家不調是因為沒有人知道有這個調出委員會所以說這個部分也是一個訊息傳達的一個問題再來就是強化調出委員會嘛每次來了以後講一講"},{"start":10239.326,"end":10248.648,"text":"我們都要跟他講一句話本調出委員會的紀錄不具代表法律效力他們就冷了啊那我今天來這邊幹什麼我的調出委員會跟調解委員會不一樣那我來調出委員會幹什麼所以說這個部分可以去做一個改善跟一個強化再來就是說"},{"start":10259.511,"end":10270.34,"text":"我們遴選廠商的部分其實我們政府部門不要再跌床駕屋了每一個縣市是不是有做優良公司評選優良公司評選的時候就有評選出所謂的優良廠商那這個機制就交給他們機制就好了為什麼我們還要再去搞一個評選廠商的機制不然我們可以比照什麼交給崔媽媽基金會類似崔媽媽基金會有推薦什麼"},{"start":10284.691,"end":10310.237,"text":"優良的搬家公司啊這個有關你相關的這個機制都可以現行的相關的制度都可以去都可以去參考所以說不是說不是說沒有我們是可以去參考再來點交講到點交我現在一直我跟協助幾個縣市做點交手冊我們在調處的時候也一直在跟民眾講其實公益大管理條例的點交有我們想像的點交那麼困難嗎"},{"start":10311.698,"end":10334.034,"text":"根本沒有啊 他叫你點的是什麼 點的是管路設施啊對不對 可是現在人什麼 把漏水混在一起搞在一起搞到做什麼 點交三年五年點交不出來然後公共基金領不回來所以說這些問題我覺得都是 那像我們桃園市政府就針對這個問題就訂定了一個地方自治法 規定什麼"},{"start":10334.594,"end":10352.081,"text":"起造人你如果沒有如實的跟管理委員會講說57條跟非57條的差異性的時候罰錢這個慢慢的問題就可以解決那這個部分或許可以納進去公衛大的管理條例的部分好那最後我要講的是什麼我要講的是"},{"start":10353.328,"end":10377.098,"text":"今天我們整個早上都在講法律各位公立大校只有管理維護嗎我們為什麼一直在談法律因為非正式控制力消失了以後才要不斷的強化正式的社會控制力嗎這個不是一個好的我們如果可以追回以前體能唯美的一個精神的時候我們還需要法律嗎對不對那很多的部會都在做可是多頭馬車啊舉個例來講"},{"start":10379.039,"end":10393.064,"text":"社區營造剛剛有人提到社區營造現場有多少人知道公益大廈有沒有在做社區營造沒有啊文化部今天沒來文化部四年前推動一個都會請社區營造我當計畫主持人推到一半喊停沒了"},{"start":10395.373,"end":10422.409,"text":"沒了然後第二個我們今年是邁入超高齡百分之八十的老人家住在哪裡住在公寓大廈各位公寓大廈老人家你這種天氣還要讓他走出去可是我們現在所有的社福照顧機構住在哪裡剩在公寓大廈以外你這種天氣還要讓他走出去情何以堪而且他去公園公園運動的結果是什麼被殺了"},{"start":10423.373,"end":10450.861,"text":"被一個陌生人殺了那如果說我們可以讓他在公益大廈裡面活動的時候是不是很好各位部會有沒有在做有衛福部四年前開放開放什麼開放管理委員會可以設立社區公法據點各位知道嗎剛剛連內政部有講我們現在總共有將近六萬多個公益大廈報備對不對你們猜猜衛福部四年前開放公益大廈管理委員會可以做社區公法據點"},{"start":10451.901,"end":10476.489,"text":"四年來全國有幾個公立大廈設立社區公開據點四個台中三個新北一個我們社區只有我們社區全時段你知道我們一年拿衛福部159萬這個不好嗎我如果把這些人經營好了以後我還需要公立大廈管理條例嗎我還需要歸約嗎所以說這些東西才是我們值得去思考的一個問題"},{"start":10478.334,"end":10493.46,"text":"所有的人大部分80%人住在公寓大廈不管是老人還是年輕人還是什麼人全部都住在公寓大廈我建議我們的政治應該由內政部做一個火車頭把相關的部位文化部衛福部請過來好好的談論這個問題你把人經營好了"},{"start":10498.12,"end":10512.084,"text":"不要每天在一直在講規約法規約法法到民眾都覺得住在公寓大廈是一個很很痛苦的一個很恐怖的事情如果我們把人經營好了把非正式的控制收入控制力再找回來的時候這個時候請問我們還需要有那麼多的規約去規範嗎以前"},{"start":10517.166,"end":10538.697,"text":"鄉村哪來的哪來的規約啊對不對大家大家守望相助哪需要那麼多的監視器啊所以說這些東西才是我們要去思考的一個問題沒有錯這個或許已經脫離我們公立大會管理條例的範圍了不過我也要借重這個機會跟各位跟各位先進還有我們的主管機關跟各位的大委員裡面呼籲"},{"start":10539.998,"end":10562.015,"text":"我們應該要好好的去思考人的經營的一個部分人的經營的部分是目前為止公益大廈最缺乏的可是也是最重要的我希望能夠有一天我們今天有一天的公聽會是能夠去談一談公益大廈如何落實社群營造如何落實老人的社福照顧這樣子我覺得才是民眾所需要的以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":10564.172,"end":10571.256,"text":"好謝謝我們陳世宏執行長的發言下一位我們請台灣物業管理學會郭繼子理事長發言好這個主席各位機關的長官各位好朋友大家好我是台灣物業管理學會的理事長郭繼子我跟各位報告本學會"},{"start":10592.455,"end":10619.303,"text":"我是这个台湾大学土木工程系的博士政大地震系的硕士我们学会里面有四十几位博士以上这些教授副教授分布在我们各个学校的相关专业科系里面我们每年办今年已经到第18届"},{"start":10620.871,"end":10648.629,"text":"物业管理研究成果发表会每年都会发表几十篇论文然后我们有学报每年还会颁发论文奖所以我们是一个学术团体第二个我要介绍的是我们这些年来传染了好几十个政府的委托案件包括优良供应大厦评选"},{"start":10649.588,"end":10679.072,"text":"包括社區的輔導公寓大廈的輔導包括社會住宅的評鑑等等包括公寓大廈管理手冊的擬定包括我們去年又幫台北市政府草擬了台北市公寓大廈長期休餐計畫及收費指引等等本人這三年來擔任相關計畫主持人三十幾個案件所以在座的"},{"start":10679.69,"end":10703.046,"text":"各位我們雖然是一個學術團體我們做了非常多的努力希望能夠做到公私協力然後共同創造一個良好的居住環境品質那麼在這個過程當中我也有非常深刻的體會和很深刻的感受所以這是我要報告的第三點我覺得我們的政府機關很辛苦"},{"start":10710.663,"end":10722.25,"text":"今天的題目是政府能做什麼其實此時此刻我站在這裡的心情我想問立法院能為我們做什麼修法政府早就有答案了各個地方政府每天因為掌握整個地方的全局所以他非常能夠了解掌握到社區運作的狀況"},{"start":10739.585,"end":10750.412,"text":"我相信我們的科股長我們的成本都可以非常清楚的回答拿洗條例具體技術性要怎麼修可是有修嗎不是沒有提是沒有修所以尤其問政府能做什麼我認為應該要問立法院能做什麼"},{"start":10762.028,"end":10790.096,"text":"本人去年的6月25号早上在楼下一楼跟国民党的罗志强等三位立法委员开共同记者会那天我们五个人为了外墙坠落风险灾害防治的问题想要修法也提了具体的方案我那天心情非常好很开心因为联合报也很帮忙用头版半版再加上里面两个整版报道"},{"start":10793.257,"end":10810.731,"text":"我回去很開心我想就修這一條應該可以修過吧而且國民黨還是多數黨團所以我就寄予很高的期待很可惜到今天為止我還沒有看到這一條法連署有任何的結果或者修法通過已經快一年過去了所以今天站在這裡我對我們劉委員"},{"start":10819.082,"end":10828.723,"text":"主席以及台上的各位表示非常誠摯的敬意就是能夠來關心我們公寓大廈的問題"},{"start":10831.001,"end":10852.49,"text":"法律的修正的問題今年公立大學條例頒布30週年有這樣的第一場活動我們必須要給您數大拇指讚但是我們基於期許希望不要我們就是盡量少一些失望能夠真的能夠爭取我們通過第五點我想表達的是我們現在的條例本身"},{"start":10859.076,"end":10875.863,"text":"可以说经过30年的淬炼相当的完善现在要修正的并不一定要全面性的修正因为全面性的修正对于社会的基层影响冲击太大了"},{"start":10876.946,"end":10901.815,"text":"你受不了老百姓也受不了沒有人受得了因為我們公寓大廈管理條例和其他法律不一樣不一樣在哪裡它是調節社會基層它是在做真正的我們社會的基層治理它也是一個城市治理很重要的一環它涉及到千家萬戶的權益和他每天住在那裡的生活你不要把它修到得精神病所以呢"},{"start":10902.677,"end":10932.055,"text":"建議與時俱進我們做部分條文修正就是很重要的急需要辦的那些事情例如大家都共同提出來長期維護修繕計畫的部分例如說寵物的部分例如說電動車的部分充電裝的這些部分等等都是急需修的包括公共安全的外牆最多傷害這一部分這些比較急的要做部分條文修正這樣才是好的修法"},{"start":10933.462,"end":10956.275,"text":"这是我要表达的这个第五点第六点我认为今天在立法院这里我要跟立法院的报告民意代表也好还是地方首长也好明天又要选这个市县长又要选举了得适的居者"},{"start":10957.148,"end":10979.766,"text":"得天下如果你們沒有敏銳的感受到社會基層治理社會基層結構的變化這是反應有點遲鈍的因為過去李林長的制度是在什麼樣的制度上產生的是在什麼樣的基礎上產生的社會基礎比較分散可是我們現在"},{"start":10982.247,"end":11011.309,"text":"台北桃園等等这些城市90%以上的居民也就是你们的选民都住在公寓大厦里公寓大厦管理组织一个一个是独立的林林长走得进去吗他能发挥影响力吗我们的管委会影响力非常大本人写了一篇文章在专门谈社区权力结构这个部分你们可以参阅所以社区"},{"start":11012.765,"end":11028.545,"text":"这种巨大的变化也孕育了我们台湾非常好的民主所以社区有争议我从来不觉得奇怪因为本人在全台湾跑了两千多个社区开了三千多场区分数学会议"},{"start":11029.525,"end":11048.171,"text":"出湯圓出掉了大概1萬件以上的正義事件我想我在這裡可能有可能是台灣的一個小小的隱形冠軍因為本人是黑手本人是在太陽下在社區奔走的那一位所以我有很多的感觸時間很短講不完但是就是"},{"start":11049.586,"end":11074.446,"text":"這個不管你誰未來都要重視社區這一塊我今天在立法院非常強烈的呼籲立法委員民意代表和這些首長們重視這件事情最後我要表達的是社區不是沒有錢大家都說沒有錢實際上社區不是沒有錢我在一個社區開會的時候一個阿嬤八十幾歲了她名下在台北市有一百多處房產"},{"start":11075.641,"end":11100.011,"text":"為了五塊錢的管理費在那裡跟住戶吵得要死氣到最後滿臉通紅他說我不跟你們開了啦氣到我高血壓我一條老命都要跟你們玩掉了為了五塊錢可是他在台北市有一百多戶房子然後他要求我我去輔導他要求我說政府不是跟老舊大樓有補助嗎你代表政府來你為什麼不幫我申請補助"},{"start":11101.516,"end":11120.158,"text":"各位補助真的非常的不公平這件事情是非常有時公平的一件事情但是也有非常困難的社區例如說我在高雄跑去一個社區因為高雄市有全台灣最嚴格的公寓大廈自治條例去一個社區強制人家成立管委會"},{"start":11121.331,"end":11147.037,"text":"然後我就拿著機關的公文說你們不成立在縣級內然後就會被罰款那個住戶跟我講說郭先生你本事很大權很大你來罰看看有單子拿來儘管罰我這裡60%以上的住戶是靠社會局生活的所以也不是罰款就能解決所有的問題因為那裡面住了很多的社會經濟弱勢戶所以我們的政策不能一刀切要分門別類"},{"start":11150.808,"end":11177.208,"text":"放錢給地方政府最後一點我要幫地方政府再講幾句話政府很可憐沒有錢沒有人強制力不足很卑微這個是立法院要面對的我站在前天我站在某個股長的旁邊跟他聊天股長說你看我這裡做的產辦已經離職三朝了"},{"start":11180.984,"end":11197.161,"text":"就是现在公务员民不聊生官不聊生根本就是一纸离职缺人缺得要死然后想要委外又没有经费然后现在最大的学汉工厂我刚刚讲我做了几十个计划组织人承担政府的案件但是我觉得"},{"start":11198.32,"end":11222.265,"text":"剝削我最大的血汗工廠就是政府因為那個採購的價格完全不符成本我賠了鑰匙我在桃園前年頒一位讓各位大家評選排一百萬去年排一百三十萬今年又得標了以上報告謝謝各位好謝謝郭記者理事長的發言最後一位我們學者專家我們請OS都市改革組織彭陽愷秘書長發言"},{"start":11228.99,"end":11248.862,"text":"主席還有次長還有各位的先進大家好那很榮幸來參與這個特別今天在座非常多都是公寓大廈實務上法令上非常多的先進然後奧爾斯當然是長期關心居住的議題那關於說我們對於公寓大廈的看法抱歉"},{"start":11255.596,"end":11278.293,"text":"看法呢 其實我們大概基本還是認為公寓大廈其實是攸關居住的公平品質跟安全那事實上我們其實最優先關注的是公共安全那是剛剛非常多先進也談到說我們其實有點災難式的立法那特別就是我舉上一次為例嘛 城中城大火然後我們公寓大廈就提了29條之一"},{"start":11280.988,"end":11303.015,"text":"49條之一的修法那時候我們其實針對這樣的公關安全我們很重視的修法裡面我們當時候在上一屆我們在提出一些建議那當然有些委員的採納只是說最後在立法上沒有被通過可是我覺得今天來我也本來我看了一下報我其實很想瞭解當時候我們行政部門覺得29針對那種就是長期因設立"},{"start":11307.308,"end":11324.494,"text":"成立管委會未成立的公寓大廈面對很多問題我們要透過29條之一49條之一來解決那樣我們就我想說等一下也許可以次長或看哪一位可以回答從我們立法到現在三年多我們的績效如何我們到底全台灣輔導了幾個本來沒有"},{"start":11327.298,"end":11342.009,"text":"沒有依法成立的我們修了29條之一49條之一到底有沒有做那這個東西就來呼應我想談的第一個事情是當時我們覺得如果從公共安全的角度上我們可以優先在注重什麼樣的事情好幫我按 對 不好意思"},{"start":11357.393,"end":11378.556,"text":"當時我們提的第一個事情是我們要不要有更強的機關的檢查權特別是針對公共安全的部分要去介入檢查的部分那我覺得這在實務上我就不多說了當時我們提到應該賦予我們純正公安消防部有更強的檢查權不然很多人就是沒有成立或拒絕檢查的部分怎麼處理好 下一頁"},{"start":11380.663,"end":11407.066,"text":"第二個事情是關於所謂機關違規的處理權的部分那我覺得這件事情上也是這樣通常就是說有一些違規都先請管委會要是什麼勸告 制止要一個什麼東西覺得沒有做的事我們再報主管機關可是如果涉及到有些很明顯的公共安全的問題上要不要授權管委會有一個更即刻就直接就通報機關要來處理的事情"},{"start":11409.795,"end":11438.267,"text":"下一頁謝謝那另外一個當然是強化管委會的公安消防的職責那就包括像大家很關心公安什麼牆壁掉落問題我們當然想說實務上很多是說每次都還要因為要這種修篩要區全會同意嘛然後就開會又開不過怎麼辦這有沒有可能在真的涉及到已經被相關主管機關認定是一個重大的公共安全的瑕疵的部分上這件事情上有一個"},{"start":11439.167,"end":11452.288,"text":"直接可以處理的方式不用再經過就是說可能從管理人角度他就可以來去執行這件事情不用再經過所謂的屈權那事後再屈權會報備的事情這是當時的想法 下一頁"},{"start":11454.025,"end":11469.385,"text":"第二個再來一個是強化公安的改善補助機制因為我們現在條例裡面是講說可以補助管理會第一個他很籠統像什麼清水溝為什麼要補助他呢第二個是要實務上也沒有錢去補助"},{"start":11470.565,"end":11499.605,"text":"所以我們當時的講法是說我們唯一應該要補助的就是跟公共安全消防有關的修繕而且只限定29條之一就是說已經成立了之後你們因為那些沒有成立的你要輔導他成立嗎他一開始面對很多問題針對這個事情我們應該真的要有些專案的補助相對而言我對於其他已成立的國安會我們的立場是政府不應該有什麼補助應該回到他們自治的精神下一頁"},{"start":11500.825,"end":11527.815,"text":"那當然最後就來看29條之一我們當時候當然也提出一些比較多的部分是說我們政府要不要有一些更積極的輔導措施要不要編列預算給地方政府他真的可以開很多輔導的作業來做嘛實務上我不知道怎樣所以我等一下真的特別請內政部這邊報告你們過去照你們29條之一跟49條之一你們到底成功的輔導了全台灣成功的輔導多少件的社區沖"},{"start":11529.456,"end":11538.289,"text":"未組成而且有你們講法是有安全之餘的集合公寓轉成了是一個公寓大廈管委會的部分好"},{"start":11540.046,"end":11558.921,"text":"最後部分我大概 第二個也是從公共安全角度來談的事情第一個當然我簡單呼應 一個是結合現在內政部我知道次長也在 你們也提出虛憑改革的方向那我也覺得車位這件事情應該配合 如果有機會應該配合在這次公寓大廈條例的修法裡面來去處理"},{"start":11560.302,"end":11574.913,"text":"那另外剛剛我也呼應剛剛有個先進講是說如果對於有一些公寓大廈原則上不應該補貼可是如果他們有重大優善我們是不是可以評估用一種叫長期的低利融資的專案就是來協助是一個融資概念的協助不是說"},{"start":11575.633,"end":11589.023,"text":"借錢給你的不是補貼的那最後一個我要特別談一下其實今天非常多先進談的就是說維護跟中長期修繕的依據我覺得這個是非常的重要可是這個部分上我們要問的是說第一個是這個計劃由誰來定"},{"start":11591.064,"end":11613.399,"text":"是誰來定這個計劃?第二個公共基金是要有多少的比例才是一個合理的?要有一個規範嗎?那第三個是從政府的角度我們怎麼引導?剛好這個事情我就稍微去整理一下幾個我想也許最後談幾個國家的制度,包括日本、德國、新加坡、法國相對於臺灣,例如像說有一些國家他的"},{"start":11615.392,"end":11633.291,"text":"編訂這個計畫是建商的責任像新加坡就是建商你要做這件事計畫那個中央有些當然是回歸到我們所謂的管委會的責任像日本啊法國啊德國那有些國家是強制性一定要做那像日本是比較是引導性可是基本上實務上多數的社區都會做這個計畫"},{"start":11634.853,"end":11661.514,"text":"那第二個事情是他們在法規上是很明確的設置要有修繕基金他的概念跟我們現在的我們現在是有點混淆啦就是他把這個修繕基金跟日常維護的錢是分開是這一筆錢專門存起來是為了中長期修繕的部分上那每一個國家也有些不同做法是不是非常多是強制設定設立而且他們甚至有一個叫比例的要求例如說你一定那個儲備比例的要求等等"},{"start":11662.395,"end":11684.842,"text":"那最後一個部分我是覺得是政府的部分上應該特別談我覺得這個事情是重要包括我知道現在因為社會住宅的部分事實上我們國土署包括住都事實上也非常認真的在談說台灣的整個中長期修繕的成本有多少所以說政府像我是建議像比照日本日本國土交通省他會有一些叫做標準執行的規範"},{"start":11686.002,"end":11700.782,"text":"可以供社區參考就是說怎麼樣來推估你的中長期修繕成本那甚至他們有些中長期修繕計畫的一個認證制度要鼓勵社區來去做類似這樣的事情那為什麼我會特別談這一頁呢我最後再講一下"},{"start":11702.945,"end":11724.588,"text":"我還是從一個公共安全的角度來談最後意思是說現在應該是說現在我們的集合公寓大廈大概有兩類第一類是要因成立而未成立的部分基於公共安全的角度我們要不要一些更積極的作為輔導他們來去成立管委會而且優先解決他們馬上面臨的公共安全的問題"},{"start":11725.709,"end":11744.185,"text":"那第二類是針對已成立管委會的部分上我們其實是要避免說他可能過十年二十年三十年之後因為沒有中長期修繕又重到了原來的問題所以我們第二部分是說一定要把台灣引進這個中長期修繕的制度"},{"start":11744.525,"end":11760.763,"text":"那我覺得我最後還是強調公益大現在是大家所有權的集體財產所以我們應該政府的角色是應該尊重他們自治可是我覺得像類似中央銀行市場是我們應該提出一個規範讓大家要提撥合理的比例的錢去做儲蓄"},{"start":11761.463,"end":11775.631,"text":"因應可能未來十年二十年有待我覺得這件事情一定要制度化如果我覺得國務卿再不做事過十年二十年之後這一線又重蹈跟你們談要補助啦要督更啊我覺得這個事情一定要趕快來做好謝謝好謝謝我們彭洋楷秘書長的發言這我跟大家報告一下本來本席也想要上台發言但是找不到代理主席"},{"start":11788.041,"end":11812.992,"text":"所以我知道用宣告的方式跟大家簡單的報告這場公定會的初衷其實我們自己在地方跑行程我個人最喜歡參加就是大樓的區選會這不只是剛剛我們郭理事長特別講公寓大廈才是票場不只是因為這樣的理由而是因為我非常清楚我們從事政治工作其實都很了解社區大廈的區選會其實才是真正的民主第一線"},{"start":11813.892,"end":11829.629,"text":"如果有好的大廈管理品質有好的社區的氛圍禮人為美的精神那其實不只是鄰里會和諧整個台灣的民主素養也會提高所以我都非常喜歡在第一線去見證這些事我甚至有的時候都很雞婆在他們吵架的時候我也當一當公道伯"},{"start":11830.129,"end":11855.978,"text":"還有幫忙處理的一些事情所以某一些層面來講我個人在政治工作的生涯裡面我也貢獻了一點點在這個公益大廈管理這個領域我也算是有點努力那我對這個領域非常有興趣也希望可以有具體的進展所以今天來排了這樣子的一個公聽會如同各位所見這個領域雖然有其專業但畢竟對於大部分的政治人物來講它其實是一個陌生的東西大家都知道大廈很重要大家也都希望拿到大樓客的票"},{"start":11856.678,"end":11880.126,"text":"但問題到底要怎麼去做它就像要學習一門新的知識一樣其實這是一個藍海而且我期待大家共同來開拓因為只有大家都共同來重視而且把大廈管理的品質提升之後台灣才會有好的民族品質所以我想我們今天用召開公聽會的方式其實也就是先走希望這個笨鳥先飛嘛我們就先在這個地方努力先了解一下這些大家在這個"},{"start":11881.526,"end":11899.318,"text":"領域上面不管是學界也好或者是實務界也好的工作者大家的想法到底是什麼我們先做一次意見的收集我們之所以叫他叫系列公聽會也是跟大家預告我們還會再開未來就是針對不同的題目我們可以再充分來聚焦以利收縮意見變成修法的一個參考今天你看"},{"start":11899.958,"end":11918.608,"text":"哪怕是我們只有四五位專家學者在這個地方討論就有些人認為應該要大休有些人為先為條有些人覺得先易後難有些人覺得可以一步到位到底要聚焦在哪裡其實有待進一步的釐清那我個人也會走訪我們自己在我們選區裡面的各個大廈的管委會的官位去了解"},{"start":11918.968,"end":11939.786,"text":"到底第一線真正比較迫切要緊的問題在哪裡所以我們還是希望今天會後大家還是可以繼續持續的提供寶貴的意見我們辦公室隨時歡迎大家的對話我們不預設任何的立場我反而希望聽到各式各樣不同的聲音然後在這樣子不同的聲音裡面找到好的交集我們至少要跨出第一步我想這是我們今天公聽會非常重要的意義"},{"start":11940.587,"end":11968.769,"text":"這很多人都感嘆公寓大廈管理條例啊這個從10週年到20週年到30週年好像每次都因為災難才修這個我也挺遺憾的我自己身為立法委員但是我也蠻清楚這個環境呢這個民生法案常常因為缺乏關注而缺少推動的動力但我們不能因為這樣子的一個環境我們就放棄在這一部分努力所以希望大家貢獻心力我自己我答應大家我們也會持續的努力希望公寓大廈的管理條例可以在我們這個任期之內至少有一點點像樣的進展"},{"start":11970.33,"end":11987.934,"text":"好 所以我們既然只是用宣告的時間 不能講太久齁這個請問各位專家學者我們先二輪發言好了好 我們請問各位因為大班互相聽了彼此的意見各位專家學者有沒有要第二輪發言的我們再請那個內政部統一回應之間有沒有還有二輪發言的沒有齁好 那我們就請內政部在針對今天聽完大家的高見之後有沒有一些簡單的回應喔所以我們請董事長再次來進行報告 請"},{"start":12006.104,"end":12022.232,"text":"好 那首先我要謝謝那個趙偉召開這樣子的一個相關的那個公聽會也要感謝今天出席的許多我們的學者專家提供了許多專業的意見我想就如同剛剛趙偉所提到的"},{"start":12022.972,"end":12046.411,"text":"工業大廈管理條例其實是一個國家非常重要的法令它奠定在 也包括許多專家都提到它是奠定在台灣是一個民主的社會我們在強調的是地方的社區自治那我也跟各位報告其實在我的博士論文在寫作的過程裡面我的老師也問我說那你認為台灣有這麼多對空間上的問題那我們怎麼解決"},{"start":12047.211,"end":12070.365,"text":"剛好當時台灣已經通過了公民大廈自治管理條例也通過了一定的程度所以也執行了一段時間所以我們當時會認為說社區的自治跟社區的參與其實是很重要包括在座的許多的學者專家其實都講到這件事情那只是說重點是在於說社區自治推動的過程裡面既然涉及到人他就有兩件事情"},{"start":12070.845,"end":12085.512,"text":"一個是人對許多事務執行的時候的認知這個部分怎麼樣子透過我們對於一個環境互動的方式或者是群體互動的方式去學習可是第二個部分就是剛才各位所提到的"},{"start":12086.232,"end":12115.441,"text":"法律我們再怎麼樣在法規上面有一些更明確的規範讓大家清楚知道說我透過這些規範我可以做什麼樣的事情所以運動部在這裡我們感謝各位委員所提出的相關的意見那麼我們包括幾件事情我們在後續的時候我們會開始積極做就是說在法律沒有修訂之前我們可以做的事情是什麼首先我們會跟文化部跟衛福部我們一起討論包括之前的社造的推動"},{"start":12116.101,"end":12142.558,"text":"那甚至我們也會跟國發會建議我們許多的地方創生我們是不是來跟我們的這些管理協會我們一起合作引進這一些相關的人力進入參與讓我們的所謂的物業公司的物管這些部分有更多更人性化更不一樣的方式一起共同來參與這是第一個部分那第二個部分其實是更重要包括剛剛楊凱理事長所提到的就是說"},{"start":12143.419,"end":12168.047,"text":"整體的我們的針對這個房子的維修他的相關的比例許多的專家都有提到那剛剛昭偉也特別提到了我們這一些房子他都總是會老舊在老舊的過程裡面我們怎麼樣子讓他其實就有一筆存款有一筆基金可以作業那我們會積極來研議也去試算到底合理的比例是多少"},{"start":12168.667,"end":12185.546,"text":"在現階段我要處理我的公共設施我的相關的物管之後我應該要有多少比例是放在這裡面那畢竟大家現在這個景氣都不好整個狀況我們還是要先試算一下合理是多少那以"},{"start":12186.887,"end":12214.527,"text":"這樣的方式那過去未來政府在相關的政策的時候我們也可以有一個對等的基金來做一個支持那第三個部分就是本部在今年我們會積極的去研擬討論有關於老宅延售的一個相關的計畫跟想法那也就配合總召跟各位學者專家所提到的那一些在公益掛下管理條例出現之前的這些老房子我們要怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":12216.128,"end":12233.764,"text":"他沒有基金他沒有相關的預算可是我們也不可能說國家全面百分之百的補助那我要怎麼樣子透過跟銀行團的協商透過一些法令的規範那我們讓他有一個機會可以透過不同的方式趕快進行環境的整修"},{"start":12234.665,"end":12251.06,"text":"那當然更重要的事情是整個公立大廈管理人員的一些授訓這裡我們也非常感謝相關的協會願意接受本部的所推動的防災室的訓練那這個防災室的訓練我在這邊也再一次澄清說明整個防災室的訓練的費用"},{"start":12253.168,"end":12278.281,"text":"那個消防署總共有19個認證的訓練機構那我們的訓練時間大概是兩天左右就是每次8小時的這樣子然後訓練的費用我們大概在3000塊以內所以我們會再進一步的積極透過我們的消防署跟國土署的合作把這些資訊公開在網路上也跟各個縣市政府說明讓我們的務官也特別跟我們的物業公司大家一起合作"},{"start":12279.301,"end":12302.462,"text":"因為站在部長還有站在國家安全的立場我們防災室的訓練就是要訓練大家在面對整個緊急災難的時候尤其是天災的頻增像昨天又地震了這個怎麼樣子面對這樣子的一個地震的狀態或者是急降雨的狀態我們有什麼樣子的防災的作為這個其實是非常重要的所以我們這個部分會去積極去作業"},{"start":12303.283,"end":12329.659,"text":"那最後有關於整個區權會大家都有提到區權會怎麼開會好相關的糾紛什麼等等其實區權會大概目前最大的困境就是我們缺乏完善的會議規則跟議事規則那這剛好是本部相關民政業務我們會來積極來協助討論我們會找相關民政的專家跟我們的物業管理公司還有一些整個公益大廈管理委員會的這些協會我們一起來討論我們來制定一個相關的那個"},{"start":12333.301,"end":12352.688,"text":"開會的規章這樣有一個明確的規章就像我們民權初步一樣這樣子大家就會很清楚開會怎麼開會議的過程怎麼推動那這些都是涉及到就是說在行政作為上面我們可以去處理的事情那我們也會積極處理那至於說在修法29條之一跟49條之一之後"},{"start":12353.268,"end":12373.374,"text":"那事實上我們在各地方政府其實我們都有明確的補助每年大概2000萬去協助這些那也相關地方也回報大概有大概300多個地方應該要去成立這些委員會那這些委員會在福島成立或者是整個公安的協助狀況之下在去年度已經降到119件"},{"start":12374.454,"end":12399.999,"text":"也就是說有很多地方他不一定成立管理委員會但是他已經把他的公安狀況都處理掉阿偉跟各位報告其實陳宗辰事件發生的時候我個人剛好在高雄市政府擔任新聞局長所以那整個處理的過程我們都有在參與那事實上地方政府是非常盡心盡力第一時間動員了現行的法令的狀況就由消防局出動還有公安公務局出動"},{"start":12400.499,"end":12415.46,"text":"去做所有大樓的公寓的管理的檢查也積極的排除許多相關的危險環境的座位但是我想就如同各位委員各位學者專家所提到的其實大家要住在一起"},{"start":12416.161,"end":12438.47,"text":"他的關鍵就是人與人如何的互動那人與人如何的互動一定涉及到兩個在法律程式的規範之下那我們還有哪一些應該去學習彼此溝通的那這個部分我們真的會透過跟文化部跟衛福部跟國發會的合作透過社造的運作讓大家學習更多不同的人與人互動的方式以上做簡單的報告謝謝"},{"start":12443.207,"end":12465.526,"text":"好謝謝我們董建宏次長的報告好那麼感謝各位專家學者今天提供寶貴的高見那麼我們所有初列席人員的發言以及提供的書面資料還有我們高精素美委員還有本席牛許廷委員所提的書面資料除了刊登公報之外我們還會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考"},{"start":12467.628,"end":12480.897,"text":"所以大家剛剛有一些因為這個發言時間很短被精簡掉用書面方式的補充的話趕快送過來那麼我們再一次感謝各位的參與這大家來今天中午有準備便當這不能讓大家餓肚子謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束現在散會"},{"start":12491.01,"end":12517.548,"text":"你們思考一下 因為他剛剛有講2013年有一個大學的版本我們回去研究一下因為主要是藉其不審藉其不延續 我知道 我去撈一下資料但我意思是說要用什麼樣的方向可以先有概念如果你要先走小的 有共識 有迫切性的也可以現在最主要其實是專業的社造跟人民的社造你要怎麼去結合嘛 所以我的意思是你正願一定會有一些你想要做的方式"},{"start":12552.039,"end":12553.623,"text":"谢谢观看"}]}},{"id":"160114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971221261c304d7efdfff11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba993ae7b583e42d3df95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:39:01 - 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今天變成怎樣 但是明天又換另外一種臉彷彿這個川劇變臉 但是他的內心沒有變他的內心就是 他把那個臉 他不講你的真實臉孔在哪裡但是他的內心就是 讓美國再次偉大他的核心是美國的這個國家利益 對不對所以他是基本上 他是這個進攻型的這個現實主義者"},{"start":67.402,"end":93.454,"text":"他主動出擊去爭取他的國家利益用強勢逼迫透過這種方式我覺得他已經達到初步的目的所以各國要怎麼樣去因應川普的關稅的政策我認為我國可以用不變應萬變什麼叫不變第一對內的部分一定要強化這個產業的競爭力"},{"start":96.806,"end":115.441,"text":"你有競爭力你才有跟其他國家這個競爭的本錢不然你關稅制度調整你有競爭力一定是比其他國家更有機會所以要不斷的強化這個產業競爭力第二個我們這個賴總統不是提到這個均衡台灣嗎我們要均衡全球的貿易市場"},{"start":117.233,"end":137.983,"text":"均衡全球貿易市場不要把所有的市場集中在特定國家比方說過去集中在中國 還是美國有一陣子是東協我覺得全球六大洲都是我們的主要市場沒有分什麼次要市場所以你要持續強化均衡全球貿易市場強化對國際的行銷"},{"start":143.715,"end":157.912,"text":"另外一方面就是要全面透過這個時間 盤點當前農工相關產品的關稅政策是不是也不合時宜 是不是也有檢討的必要 這三個不變"},{"start":159.887,"end":187.428,"text":"持續推動 持續加強這對內的部分是可操之在我們但是不可操之在我們是在在美國的這個關稅政策我剛剛所提到 川劇變臉幾乎常常每天這變動是一個常態所以我們強化是如何跟這個主要貿易國家的這個協商的機制跟談判人員的強化駐美 我們談判小組駐美的這個經濟組統有多少人 那個賴市長"},{"start":191.744,"end":210.103,"text":"駐美經濟組的同仁,我去過,他們人蠻多的18個人,不只是美國,整個北美,所以我告訴你,18個人你要加強,像行政院有跨部會的這個因應小組,我希望你這個經濟部也要組成跨局處的這個因應小組"},{"start":213.706,"end":218.088,"text":"國貿局、以前工業局、現在產發署相關的局處跟駐美經濟小組的同仁要保持一個密切的聯繫前線跟後勤能夠馬上得到這個訊息的無縫接軌同樣的農業部也要如此辦理"},{"start":237.998,"end":263.129,"text":"包括你這個六項主要影響農業產品六項是主要影響的那六項總金額是多少錢蕭美總金額是多少錢六項加起來現在目前加起來六項加起來大概是五十多億五十多億嘛相對於比這個經濟部主管的相關的我們產業的金額相當比較小但是不是因為比較小我們就不重視"},{"start":264.469,"end":291.014,"text":"但是我要強調就是說這個前線跟我們後行後線的這個協調機制非常重要所以怎麼樣派更多的紅人到這段時間去美國啊來協助怎麼樣去跟川普政府做更多的政策的協調磋商也好因為90天之後他是暫緩90天90天之後還不知道是不是90天之後如期上路"},{"start":292.728,"end":312.982,"text":"還是會變 沒有人知道 只有川普知道但是我們做最壞的打算就是說如果九十天 三個月之後他要如期上路那我們還是要因應那九十天是黃金的九十天黃金的三個月你要把握這個時間去跟美國相關的部位包括他們農業部 包括他們的商務部包括跟白宮相關的經濟的閣員"},{"start":316.104,"end":329.78,"text":"有更多的溝通 更多的協調在90天之內有一個進展讓美國可以接受我們做相關的政策的調整包括我們加強對美國的投資也要讓他們知道說投資哪些項目加強對美國的這個購買"},{"start":332.847,"end":357.967,"text":"比方說對美國有哪些產品我們可以加強來對他們的購買來平衡對美國的貿易的這個順利差我們對他們的順差非常高所以因為順差高我們才被他認為是高關稅的國家嘛所以我們加強投資加強對美採購這個一定要在三十九十天之內確實到位"},{"start":359.298,"end":369.484,"text":"品相經得都要清楚 當然也包括其他部會 包括我想能源也算是進一步吧 對不對包括天然氣的採購啦 包括相關的農產品的採購 也當然包括國防"},{"start":376.861,"end":390.603,"text":"我覺得日本政府對這個因應我覺得還不錯從以前的這個歷任的這個這個首相對美國的貿易政策他們這個敏銳度非常高安倍"},{"start":392.56,"end":417.454,"text":"安倍首相他跟美國的只要說稍微跟美國對這個日本貿易的這個有一些意見的時候安倍他就馬上立刻放下身上去談判透過加強的這個採購來把這個貿易的順差把它降下來得到美國的這個信任然後美日關係又變成一個很準同盟的關係"},{"start":419.127,"end":446.666,"text":"另外一個極端例子就是這個中國中國對抗你看現在75國全部90天的暫緩對不對暫緩之後搞不好有這個談判的結果有談判的進度搞不好這些關稅又會再下降又會回到原來的水準所以我覺得這個是川普過去他的這個執政一貫的策略先用高壓高壓之後逼著你一定要去談判"},{"start":448.135,"end":471.008,"text":"談判之後有一個好的結果也當成共識當然對雙方都是好的對他的美國的國家利益也是好的對台灣也不見之不好對貿易的對手國也不見之不好所以我說剛剛說對內的三個變對外我們要積極怎麼樣把握這次黃金三個月去跟美國建立起磋商的機制談判的這個具體成果這個很重要"},{"start":472.411,"end":501.053,"text":"這個農業部有沒有相關的單位在美國我想農業部我們有農業組在那邊那其實特別是針對剛才委員所說的其實均能全權的貿易是非常重要的就是我們沒辦法依賴一個單一的國家所以我們在這一次的支持方案裡面我們其實也考慮到這個所以在這些相關的這些行銷面的部分除了美國市場以外我們也針對主要的目標市場也同步在啟動讓這些產品能夠有更多元的這些市場"},{"start":501.813,"end":518.108,"text":"劇本不是我們寫的劇本是川普寫的但是我們要有因應劇本的相關的戰略你要想想看他可能會有哪些劇本過去說有這個李登輝總統說他掌握18套劇本對不對你們要設想到每一個scenario可能對台灣的產業衝擊對農業衝擊"},{"start":521.462,"end":540.544,"text":"然後針對這些相關的影響我們去做對內的相關的協調也好或者是跟產業界座談也好對外要加強對這個溝通時間到了還有很多事情另外投資台灣三大方案這也是經濟部的業務"},{"start":542.358,"end":557.984,"text":"我們希望說這一波的產業結構的調整這些全球供應鏈的重新的重組我希望有更多的這個核心關鍵產業能夠回來台灣但回來台灣你這個三大方案再延長到2027年對不對 那個市長"},{"start":561.527,"end":580.885,"text":"這個部分我們已經有規劃了那院長也有表示那基本上我們會依照這個三大投資方案的這個部分就你剛剛所說的到2027的部分去做規劃這個如果這一波回來可能是關鍵的產業所以他們回來的中心反而是更高"},{"start":582.548,"end":596.66,"text":"重要性更高所以我認為經濟部門要提供更好的EOE讓這些產業類重組的過程中願意來台灣再來投資回來台灣投資所以各國的經貿政策一定是以他的國家利益為主"},{"start":597.648,"end":625.54,"text":"所以我們當然我們在規劃任何的這個經貿政策當然以台灣的國家利益為主產業政策的利益為主所以包括農民的利益為主我相信兩位包括陳部長包括剛剛郭部長也來還有賴市長我想這段時間執政團隊非常辛苦那我相信你們也做好準備只是說很多事情非超支在我們是超支在美方超支在川普政府但是我們這些所有劇本都要很清楚做盤點"},{"start":626.34,"end":627.802,"text":"那我也提醒財政部理事長"},{"start":633.826,"end":649.779,"text":"那個關稅啊 關稅你要怎麼利用這段時間做一些相關的全面盤點跟調整這個財政部有沒有相關的記錄因為關稅的調整主要還是要看這個產業主管機關他們對產業的這個影響評估啦那這部分財政部會來尊重主管機關評估的結果"},{"start":657.325,"end":669.631,"text":"那相關主管機關也要針對各個品項的關稅目前是到底合不合理到底造成的順差對美國的影響有多大這個應該去盤點只要說主管機關做出相關的建議財政部都願意做調整嗎"},{"start":674.913,"end":695.239,"text":"我們會經由這個主管機關做審慎評估因為他們會考量整個產業的這個發展還有就是會不會對台灣的就業造成影響或衝擊這個部分我們會尊重產業主管機關評估的意見我要特別謝謝史上這個最好的召委給我給我額外的幾分鐘謝謝你"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時39分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部賴次長，還有農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請次長跟部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：我想主要影響的是農業部跟經濟部，所以今天的主題是對我國農漁畜，以及關鍵產業競爭力的相關影響。當然川普是變動性的常態，常態是一個變動性，變動性的常態，也是常態變動性，就好像川劇變臉一樣，目不暇給，今天變成這樣，但是明天又換另外一種臉，彷彿川劇變臉，但是他的內心沒有變，我們不曉得他的真實臉孔在哪裡，但是他的內心就是讓美國再次偉大，他的核心是美國的這個國家利益，對不對？所以，基本上他是進攻型的現實主義者──主動出擊去爭取他的國家利益，對外又強勢逼迫；透過這種方式，我覺得他已經達到初步的目的，所以各國要怎麼樣去因應川普的關稅政策？","個人認為我國可以用不變應萬變的方式。什麼叫不變？第一、對內一定要強化這個產業的競爭力，你有競爭力，才有跟其他國家競爭的本錢，不管關稅怎麼調整，你有競爭力，就一定比其他國家更有機會，所以要不斷強化這個產業的競爭力。第二、我們的賴總統不是提到要均衡臺灣嗎？我們要均衡全球的貿易市場，不要把所有的市場都集中在特定國家，比方過去是集中在中國、美國，有一些是東協，但我覺得全球六大洲都是我們的主要市場，沒有分什麼次要市場，所以你要持續均衡全球貿易市場，強化對國際的行銷。另外，就是要透過這個時間，全面盤點當前農工相關產品的關稅政策，是不是有不合時宜？是不是有檢討的必要？這三個不變要持續推動，持續加強，這是對內的部分，是可操之在我們。","不可操之在我們的部分，是美國的這個關稅政策，剛剛提到川劇變臉，每天變動幾乎是一個常態，所以我們要如何強化跟主要貿易國家的這個協商機制，如何強化談判人員？請問賴次長，我們談判小組駐美經濟組的同仁有多少人？"],["賴次長建信：駐美經濟組我去過啊，他們的人還滿多的。"],["邱委員志偉：就18個人，不只是美國，還是整個北美，所以我告訴你要加強，就像行政院有跨部會的因應小組，本席希望經濟部也要組織跨局處的因應小組，包括國貿局，還有以前的工業局，現在的產發署等相關局處，跟我們駐美國經濟小組的同仁要保持密切的聯繫，讓前線跟後勤能夠馬上得到這個訊息，而且是無縫接軌。同樣的，農業部也要如此辦理，包括六項主要影響的農漁產品，這六項銷美的總金額是多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：目前這六項加起來，大概是五十二億。"],["邱委員志偉：是五十多億嘛！相較於經濟部主管相關產業的金額比較小，但也不是因為比較小，我們就不重視。我要強調的是，前線跟我們後勤、後線的這個協調機制非常重要，這段時間怎麼樣派更多的同仁去美國協助，如何跟川普政府做更多的政策協調、磋商？因為現在是暫緩九十天，九十天之後是不是如期上路，還是會變？沒有人知道，只有川普知道！但是我們要做最壞的打算，也就是九十天（三個月）之後，如果他要如期上路，我們還是要去因應。所以這九十天是黃金的九十天，黃金的三個月，我們要把握這個時間去跟美國相關的部會，包括他們的農業部、商務部，包括跟白宮相關的經濟閣員有更多的溝通，更多的協調，在九十天之內能有一個進展，讓美國可以接受我們做相關的政策調整，包括我們加強對美國的投資，也要讓他們知道是投資哪些項目；加強對美國的購買，比方對美國的哪些產品，我們可以加強購買，來平衡對美國的貿易順逆差。我們對他們的順差非常高，因為順差高，我們才會被他們列高關稅的國家，所以我們加強投資、加強對美採購，一定要在九十天之內確實到位；品項、金額都要清楚，當然也包括其他部會。我想能源部分也是在經濟部嘛，對不對？包括天然氣的採購、包括農產品的採購、當然也包括國防啦！","我覺得日本政府對這個部分的因應還不錯，歷任首相對美國的貿易政策，他們的敏銳度都非常高，像安倍首相，只要美國對日本的貿易稍微有一些意見的時候，安倍發現順差就馬上去跟美國談判，透過加強採購來把這個貿易順差降下來，得到美國的信任，然後美日又變成一個準同盟的關係。另外一個極端的例子就是中國的對抗，你看現在75國全部有九十天的暫緩，暫緩之後，有了這個談判的結果、談判的進度，搞不好這些關稅又會再下降，又會回到原來的水準。","所以我覺得這個是川普執政一貫的策略，先用高壓，高壓之後，逼著你一定要去談判，談判之後有一個好的結果，有達成共識，當然對雙方都是好的，對美國的國家利益也是好的，對臺灣也不見得不好，對貿易的對手國也不見得不好。所以我剛剛說對內的三個不變，對外我們要積極，怎麼樣把握這黃金的三個月，跟美國建立起磋商機制、談判的具體成果，這個很重要。農業部有沒有相關的單位在在美國？"],["陳部長駿季：農業部的部分，我們有農業組在那邊。特別是針對委員剛才所說的，均衡全球的貿易是非常重要的，我們沒有辦法倚賴單一國家，所以我們在這一次的支持方案裡面，其實也考慮到這個，在相關的行銷面部分，除了美國市場以外，我們也針對主要的目標市場同步啟動，讓這些產品能夠有更多元的市場。"],["邱委員志偉：劇本不是我們寫的，劇本是川普寫的，但是我們要有因應劇本的相關戰略！你要想想看，他可能會有哪些劇本？過去在李登輝總統的時候，他掌握十八套劇本，所以你們要設想每一個scenario可能對臺灣的產業衝擊，對農業的衝擊，針對這些相關的影響，我們對內去做相關的協調，或是跟產業界座談；對外要加強溝通。另外，投資臺灣三大方案也是經濟部的業務。"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我們希望這一波產業結構的調整，全球供應鏈重新的重組，能夠有更多的核心關鍵產業回來臺灣，但回來臺灣之後，次長，你的這個三大方案是延長到2027年，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：這個部分我們已經有規劃，院長也有表示。基本上，我們會依照三大投資方案的這個部分，就是你現在所說到2027的部分去規劃。"],["邱委員志偉：這一波回來的可能是關鍵產業，那麼他們回來的重要性反而更高，所以我認為經濟部要提供更好的誘因，讓這些產業鏈在重組的過程中，願意再回來臺灣投資。當然各國的經貿政策一定是以他的國家利益為主，我們在規劃任何的經貿政策時，當然也是以臺灣的國家利益為主，產業政策的利益為主，還包括農漁民的利益為主。包括陳部長，剛剛郭部長也有來，還有賴次長，執政團隊在這段時間非常辛苦，我相信你們也做好準備，只是很多事情非操之在我們，而是操之在美方，操之在川普政府，我們對所有劇本都要很清楚地盤點；也要提醒財政部李次長，針對關稅部分，你要怎麼利用這段時間，做一些相關的、全面性的盤點跟調整，財政部有沒有相關的計畫？"],["李次長慶華：這部分我們會來因應，因為關稅的調整，主要還是要看產業主管機關對產業的影響評估，財政部尊重主管機關評估的結果。"],["邱委員志偉：財政部會尊重主管機關，但相關主管機關也要針對各個品項的關稅，目前到底合不合理，它所造成的順差對美國的影響有多大，這個也應該去盤點……"],["李次長慶華：是，這個部分我們有配合……"],["邱委員志偉：只要主管機關做出相關的這些建議，財政部都願意調整嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我們會經由這個主管機關審慎評估，因為他們會考量整個產業的發展，還有會不會對臺灣的就業造成影響或衝擊。對這個部分，我們會尊重產業主管機關評估的意見。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。我要特別謝謝史上最好的召委，給我額外的幾分鐘，謝謝你。"],["主席：登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員徐欣瑩、謝衣鳯所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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針對川普的關稅政策你們今天盤點出來我們輸出到美國的幾項產品蝴蝶、蘭茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀等等但是其實我看到非常多的業者他們反映其實不只是這幾項可能會受到影響譬如說雞腿因為美國的雞腿美國人比較不吃雞腿所以他們本來進來台灣這邊是比較便宜"},{"start":41.636,"end":62.934,"text":"那不會因為有關稅關係所以比較貴啦但是如果說現在政府要用零關稅去談那讓美國的農產品都零關稅進來其實對於本來台灣的一些其他的產品也會受到影響所以你們現在相關的因應之道是什麼我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提的分兩件事情齁就是我剛才"},{"start":63.655,"end":89.48,"text":"我們是第一個部分是因為美國的關稅提高影響到我們的出口那出口的部分大概有六個品項是主要影響的品項但是所有的輸到美國的產品都有不同程度的影響只是比較多的那另外你剛剛講到肌肉的部分是美國輸到台灣的部分那現在輸到台灣的部分我們有一些關稅的一個保護這我都知道我沒有闡述事件就是因為現在政府要用零關稅去談嘛"},{"start":91.342,"end":117.56,"text":"那其實很多專家學者是說零關稅對美國沒有什麼吸引力啦因為我們的法定關稅本來就不高啦大概2%左右啦但是如果說到時候美國因為我們進口美國的農產品比較多嘛我們輸出過去比較少嘛所以他如果特別就是說那我們農產品來零關稅其實對我們在地本土的農業會有影響嘛我現在是問的說這一塊你們對對對我想關稅的談判喔一個部分是"},{"start":118.26,"end":144.29,"text":"一致性的就是國家稅就是不管任何產品都是一致的稅率還有另外一個方式是會根據不同的品項但是就農業的產品來講它有它的特殊性在很多國家都是一樣的它不會全部都是零關稅它會有一些當你的當地的產業是需要去支持的時候它就不會是零關稅本來就是這樣啊可是問題是現在政府因為現在川普他的氣勢比較高嘛"},{"start":144.73,"end":161.282,"text":"他現在說各國領導人等著要去拍他馬屁啊然後要跟他做交易啊所以他如果現在政府如果說好沒關係我就每項零關稅等於是犧牲我們的農業去談嘛所以我現在聽部長的意思是說農業有其特殊性所以你不會希望農業產品零關稅是不是我想我們的台灣政府也知道了"},{"start":163.864,"end":182.139,"text":"你講的跟賴總統講的就大家一般大眾理解就不一樣沒有賴總統講的是從零關稅開始談起但是相對的整個談判是所有的產品但是農業我想談判小組已經也體認到也確認就是說農業有它的特殊性不會每一項所以每一個農業都不會用零關稅"},{"start":182.679,"end":208.469,"text":"農業不會用零關稅跟他談他講的零關稅是其他的產業是不是這個意思對 然後農業的部分重要的這些產品我們一定堅持不能用零關稅那就是零關稅開始談起啦那他講話就不精準啦不是他應該要講說農產品之外我們用零關稅跟他談因為他這樣講我們大家一定都會入會了沒有沒有 總統的高度他講的是我們台灣好比直接整體的貿易整體的貿易的處理謝謝你的說明第二個"},{"start":209.449,"end":225.922,"text":"因為說實在的美國他們除了關稅你用零關稅跟他談之後他更在意的是非關稅的貿易障礙嘛其中好幾項都跟食安有關啊比如說基因食品啊或者簡易啊等等啊或者是一些進口的配額那"},{"start":227.478,"end":242.815,"text":"部長你會不會針對這些比較相關的食安像之前其實台灣對於比如萊豬的進口啊都其實國內的人都其實蠻抗拒的那如果美國現在藉機要求說你只要你的食安標準太高的話這是一種貿易障礙那農業部能夠堅持嗎"},{"start":244.136,"end":252.489,"text":"不過我想整個的相關的食品的安全是衛務部主責但是我們一定會配合整體的談判的一個策略那以農業部來講以農業部來講我們是針對相關的措施對產業的影響那包括"},{"start":260.06,"end":278.988,"text":"之前的豬肉豬肉的部分我想我們有很好的豬整個台灣豬產業的一個支持系統所以我們的整個的次舉率還是維持到88到90之間所以相對的這些國外進口的這些衝擊就在一個可控的一個風險之下那未來我想我們還是會以去持續去強化我們國內的產業為主軸"},{"start":282.069,"end":308.449,"text":"這是農業部的最後一個提醒就是因為之前你們有推一個斑斑喝鮮奶的政策當時其實也是因應紐西蘭的牛奶零關稅要進來台灣為了保護弱農所以急救商推出來現在也無疾而終了嘛推一段時間後來也都不做了如果到時候啦 談判造成說我們有一些農業產品必須降低關稅讓美國的產品進來因為現在也不是美國的到時候其他國家也有可能比較要求啊"},{"start":309.289,"end":325.336,"text":"就是說你對美國這樣降低那其他國家說那我要降低如果說到時候關稅降低的話我希望農業部有配套不要像上次斑斑喝鮮奶一樣講說保護國內的就叫學校去處理然後沒有配套措施就搞得一團亂"},{"start":326.536,"end":354.347,"text":"相關的配套我覺得要規劃好了我們的關稅的調整一定有後續的配套的作為對啊 上次上次的配套就慢慢喝鮮奶所以後來就團斷了鮮奶的政策是很正確的但是後面的執行細節有它有它一些地方政府還有一些學校之間那不是地方政府的問題啦因為今天時間不夠了農業部那時候推出來的時候就沒有規劃很完整嘛我是說以後如果萬一要配套的話希望能夠規劃完整再上路啦"},{"start":355.1,"end":358.333,"text":"要以那個半班喝香檸當作一個前車之鑒啊好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時32分）麻煩請農業部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，針對川普的關稅政策，我們這邊盤點輸出到美國的幾項產品，蝴蝶蘭、茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚及鬼頭刀等等，但是我看到非常多的業者反映，其實不只是這幾項可能會受到影響。譬如說雞腿，因為美國人比較不吃雞腿，所以本來他們進口到臺灣，因為有關稅的關係所以會比較貴。如果現在政府要用零關稅去談，讓美國的農產品都零關稅進來，一些臺灣本地的其他產品也會因此受到影響，你們現在相關的因應之道是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，您剛剛提的要分兩件事情，第一、因為美國的關稅提高影響到我們的出口，出口的部分大概有六個品項是主要影響的品項。但是所有輸到美國的產品都有不同程度的影響，這些只是比較多的。另外，你剛才講的雞肉，是美國輸到臺灣的部分，現在輸到臺灣的部分，我們有一些關稅的保護，將近……"],["葉委員元之：這我都知道，我沒有很多時間。現在政府要用零關稅去談，其實很多專家學者說，零關稅對美國沒有什麼吸引力，因為我們的法定關稅本來就不高，大概2%左右。但是因為我們進口美國的農產品比較多，輸出過去比較少，如果農產品來談零關稅，其實對我們在地本土的農業會有影響嘛！我現在問的是這一塊。"],["陳部長駿季：我想關稅的談判，一個部分是一致性的，就是國家不管任何產品都是一致的稅率，還有另外一個方式，是會根據不同的品項。就農業的產品來講，它有其特殊性，這在很多國家都是一樣的，不會全部都是零關稅，有一些當地的產業需要支持的時候，它就不會是零關稅。"],["葉委員元之：本來就是這樣啊！問題是現在川普的氣勢比較高嘛！他現在說各國領導人等著要去拍他馬屁，要跟他交易啊！政府如果說，好，沒關係，我就每項零關稅，等於是犧牲我們的農業去談嘛！我現在聽部長的意思是說，農業有其特殊性，你不會希望農業產品零關稅是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們不會，我想我們的談判小組也知道。"],["葉委員元之：這部分你講的跟賴總統講的，和一般大眾的理解不一樣。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，賴總統講的是從零關稅開始談起，但是相對的，整個談判是所有的產品，但是農業部分，我想談判小組也已經體認到，農業有其特殊性，不會每一項都是……"],["葉委員元之：所以農業都不會用零關稅跟他談？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["葉委員元之：他講的零關稅是其他的產業，是這個意思？"],["陳部長駿季：對，然後農業的部分，重要的這些產品，我們一定堅持不能用零關稅。"],["葉委員元之：那就不是零關稅開始談起，那他講話就不精準。"],["陳部長駿季：不是……"],["葉委員元之：他應該要講，農產品之外我們用零關稅跟他談，因為他這樣講，我們大家一定都會誤會。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我想以總統的高度，他講的是我們臺灣對整體貿易的處理。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，謝謝你的說明。說實在的，美國他們除了關稅，你用零關稅跟他談之外，他更在意的是非關稅的貿易障礙，其中好幾項都跟食安有關。比如說基因食品、檢疫等等，或是一些進口的配額，部長您會不會針對這些比較相關的食安……像之前其實臺灣對於萊豬的進口，國人都滿抗拒的。如果美國現在藉機要求，說你的食安標準太高是一種貿易障礙，農業部能夠堅持嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：相關的食品安全是衛福部主責，但是我們一定會配合整體的談判策略。以農業部來講，我們是針對相關措施對產業的影響，包括之前的豬肉。豬肉的部分，我想我們臺灣豬的產業有一個很好的支持系統，所以我們的自給率還是維持在88%到90%之間，相對這些國外進口的衝擊，仍在一個可控的風險之下。未來我想我們還是會以持續強化國內的產業為主軸，這是農業部最大的職責。"],["葉委員元之：最後一個提醒，你們之前有推一個班班喝鮮奶的政策，當時其實也是因應紐西蘭的牛奶零關稅要進來臺灣，為了保護酪農，所以急救章推出來，現在也無疾而終了，推一段時間後來也不做了。如果到時候談判造成我們有一些農業產品必須降低關稅讓美國的產品進來，現在也不只美國，到時候其他國家也有可能要求比照，就說你對美國這樣降低，那我也要降低。如果到時候關稅降低的話，我希望農業部有配套，不要像上次班班喝鮮奶一樣，說要保護國內酪農，結果就叫學校去處理，然後沒有配套措施搞得一團亂，相關的配套我覺得要規劃好。"],["陳部長駿季：我們關稅的調整一定有後續的配套作為。"],["葉委員元之：上次的配套就班班喝鮮奶，後來就一團亂，我現在只是提醒你……"],["陳部長駿季：其實鮮奶的政策是正確的，但是後面的執行細節，有一些地方政府還有一些學校之間……"],["葉委員元之：那不是地方政府的問題啦！今天的時間不夠了。農業部當時推出來的時候就沒有規劃得很完整，我是說以後萬一要配套的話，希望能夠規劃完整再上路，要以班班喝鮮奶當作一個前車之鑑，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","下一位請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們請農業部陳部長有請部長"},{"start":14.841,"end":39.256,"text":"部長好部長這天很辛苦每天可能都像洗三溫暖一樣今天一覺醒來關稅又降到10%了而且還有90天的緩衝期但是美國對於中國大陸是真的要課這125%的一個關稅部長可以先看一下這個表格就是我所做的就主要受影響品項跟競爭對手國就是蝴蝶蘭跟"},{"start":39.716,"end":51.347,"text":"冷凍無果魚就是所謂的台灣貂其實是我們輸美最多那但是同時我們的主要競爭者也是中國大陸那現在他們要課徵125%的關稅我們是10%所以請問一下針對現在這樣一個新的契機喔那農業部隊這樣子我們這些業者有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":59.255,"end":80.587,"text":"我想特別是我們現在如果能夠有一個緩衝期有機會再跟業者進一步的討論那未來的關稅如果不會到32如果更低的時候那相對於中國我們就有更高的機會那我們會針對現在目前毛豆中國的佔比最高對美國來講然後吳國瑜也是"},{"start":83.669,"end":101.915,"text":"那這些產品其實就是我們的一個機會那蝴蝶安部分雖然說是荷蘭但是荷蘭的生產模式跟我們不一樣那相對的我們在擴大海外的那個蝴蝶安廠的一個投資做接力生產那這個東西都在我們的促進的那個支持方案裡面會去協助我們的業者"},{"start":103.607,"end":131.634,"text":"現在針對這個部分表示說我們對於美出口的增加應該不會影響太大但是這可能是不是也相對的就對於我們國內的消費市場的衝擊大概會有多大不過這個以現在關稅10%因為我們過去美國大概平均是對農產品是5%所以相對它也是有提高了但是這個提高在業者的角度來講還是可以做一些接受而且我們的支持的方案不會說"},{"start":132.774,"end":157.928,"text":"三十二才處理 十就不處理 我們還是會有一些因為剛剛部長提出了一些建議的方案嘛可是因為農產品跟漁產品跟其他產品最大的不同就是它沒有辦法說不種就不種 說不養就不養所以它必須要有一個這個養殖期所以在面對川普政府他這樣反覆無常的一個政策之下就是農業部有沒有用什麼樣的方案來去提醒我們的這些農漁民"},{"start":158.968,"end":186.386,"text":"我想最重要像特別我舉個例子特別昨天在吳國瑜的這些座談裡面一個非常重要的就是我們一定要持續的將產品拉出去前端的放養才會繼續走不然你如果說因為光望訂單停了以後後面的放養就可能會光望會造成就算以後恢復了以後你前端沒有餘的所以我們會去強化所謂的國外的這些獎勵也好或是行銷包括其他的高端市場的行銷這個部分我們會積極去做"},{"start":187.987,"end":210.381,"text":"那像台湾雕的业者很担心这个中国大陆或巴西洗产地这样的一个问题,那农业部有什么因应的?我想洗产地当然我们会加强茶气,但是有一个比较特殊的就是我们的台湾雕跟中国的台湾雕是不同品系的,所以我们在技术上也可以做区分,所以后续我们在整个的一个产业的流程里面,我们会用溯源的方式,"},{"start":211.301,"end":226.008,"text":"包括前端場域的放養量的申報跟他要去出口的時候去做相關的溯源那這樣的話就避免他透過國內的業者去做棲產地所以針對這個部分的話我想這個農漁民都是說實在相對弱勢所以面對這樣的一個衝擊很需要農業部還有我們全民做他們的後盾我們再看一下就是根據2024年的統計的數據來看我們的"},{"start":235.773,"end":264.056,"text":"農產品的逆差大概是29.9億美元那目前我們看到一下台灣最大的是出口中的農產品是無國魚那最大的這個魚產品是無國魚農產品是蝴蝶蘭那因為蝴蝶蘭對美國出口的產值大概18.3億台幣美國也佔出口市場達四成是我們最大的買主那在美國宣布這個關稅政策暫緩之前很多業者就反映就輸美的訂單可能出現暫停"},{"start":265.077,"end":284.959,"text":"或者取消的一個狀況現在雖然是暫緩但是面對這樣子反覆無常的一個策略那對於我們這些胡德蘭業者農業部有什麼因應的方式特別在昨天早上也跟胡德蘭業者座談了那現在除了觀望為主啦那已經有交貨的有一些是延遲付款的部分"},{"start":285.901,"end":301.182,"text":"那延遲付款他們對他們的資金的周轉是有壓力的所以我們的金融支持會持續下去去讓他們在短期之內的金融的一個減輕他的壓力但是非常重要的就是後端本身的這些獎勵他們是希望說"},{"start":302.384,"end":329.744,"text":"以現在目前的當初三十二的關稅的時候部分的關稅是由進口商去吸收那一部分是由出口商來吸收那出口商吸收再加上我們的獎勵對他們的衝擊就會小這個訂單就會繼續拉的出去最後一個問題就想請教一下就是針對美國希望我們對美豬跟美牛不要標示原產地跟萊克多巴胺的這個政策請問一下在談判的過程中農業部會讓步嗎"},{"start":331.304,"end":357.216,"text":"我想這個有關於標示跟相關的檢驗的部分是衛務部主責但是以農業部來講我們還是會去支持我們自己的產業的一個發展那以過往的這些數據來看以豬肉來講我們的自給率大概是88到90那每一年進口大概是10萬噸左右那會有消長的部分所以我想我們還是以支持我們國內的產業為最主要的談判的一個前提"},{"start":357.876,"end":360.079,"text":"謝謝 希望農業部針對我國食安的問題這個部分絕對不能讓步謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝徐宇峥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（12時26分）謝謝主席，請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。部長這幾天很辛苦，每天可能都像洗三溫暖一樣，今天一覺醒來，關稅又降到10%了，而且還有90天的緩衝期。但是美國對中國大陸是真的要課徵125%的關稅，部長可以先看一下這個表格，主要受影響品項跟競爭對手國，即蝴蝶蘭跟冷凍吳郭魚，也就是所謂的臺灣鯛，其實是我們輸美最多，但同時我們主要的競爭者，也就是中國大陸，現在他們要課徵125%的關稅，我們是10%。請問針對這樣一個新的契機，農業部對這些業者有什麼建議？"],["陳部長駿季：我想特別是我們現在如果能夠有一個緩衝期，有機會再跟業者進一步討論，未來的關稅如果不會到32%，甚至更低的時候，相對於中國我們就有更高的機會。我們會針對現在中國對美占比最高的毛豆，然後吳郭魚也是，這些產品其實就是我們的一個機會。蝴蝶蘭的部分雖說是荷蘭，但是荷蘭的生產模式跟我們不一樣，相對我們在擴大海外蝴蝶蘭廠的投資接力生產，這些在我們的支持方案內都會去協助我們的業者。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，表示我們對美出口的增加應該不會影響太大，但是不是也相對對我們國內的消費市場造成衝擊，大概會有多大？"],["陳部長駿季：現在的關稅是10%，過去美國對我們的農產品的平均是5%，所以相對也是有提高，但是這個提高在業者的角度來講還是可以接受，而且我們的支持方案，不會說32%才處理，10%就不處理，我們還是會有一些滾動式的……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛部長也提出一些建議的方案，可是農產品、漁產品跟其他產品最大的不同，就是它沒有辦法說不種就不種，說不養就不養，它必須要有一個養殖期。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["許委員宇甄：面對川普政府這樣反覆無常的政策之下，農業部有沒有用什麼方案提醒我們的農漁民？"],["陳部長駿季：我舉個例子，特別是昨天在跟吳郭魚業者的座談中，有一個非常重要的觀念就是，我們一定要持續將產品拉出去，前端的放養才會繼續走。不然如果因為觀望，訂單停了以後，後面的放養可能也會觀望，造成就算恢復了以後，前端沒有魚了。所以我們會強化這些國外的獎勵或是行銷，包括其他高端市場的行銷，這個部分我們會積極去做。"],["許委員宇甄：臺灣鯛的業者很擔心中國大陸或巴西洗產地的問題，農業部有什麼因應對策？"],["陳部長駿季：當然我們會加強查緝，但是比較特殊的是，我們的臺灣鯛跟中國的臺灣鯛是不同品系的，所以我們在技術上也可以區分。後續我們在整個產業流程內會用溯源的方式，包括前端場域放養量的申報，跟出口時去做相關的溯源，避免他們透過國內的業者去洗產地。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，我想農漁民說實在都是相對弱勢，面對這樣的衝擊，很需要農業部還有我們全民做他們的後盾。我們再看一下，根據2024年統計的數據，我們農產品的逆差大概是29.9億美元。目前臺灣出口最大的漁產品是吳郭魚，農產品是蝴蝶蘭，因為蝴蝶蘭對美國出口的產值大概是18.3億台幣，美國也占出口市場的四成，是我們最大的買主。在美國宣布關稅政策暫緩之前，很多業者就反映輸美訂單可能出現暫停或取消的狀況。現在雖然是暫緩，但面對這樣反覆無常的策略，對於我們這些蝴蝶蘭業者，農業部有什麼因應的方式？"],["陳部長駿季：昨天早上也特別跟蝴蝶蘭業者座談了，現在除了觀望為主，已經有交貨的有些是延遲付款，延遲付款對他們資金周轉是有壓力的，所以我們的金融支持會持續下去，在短期之內減輕他們的金融壓力。但非常重要的就是，後端本身的這些獎勵，他們是希望當初32%關稅的時候，部分關稅由進口商去吸收，一部分由出口商來吸收，出口商吸收再加上我們的獎勵，對他們的衝擊就會變小，這個訂單就會繼續拉得出去。"],["許委員宇甄：最後一個問題，針對美國希望我們對美豬跟美牛不要標示原產地跟萊克多巴胺的政策，請問在談判的過程中，農業部會讓步嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有關標示跟相關檢驗的部分是衛福部主責，但是以農業部來講，我們還是會支持我們自己產業的發展。從過往這些數據來看，以豬肉為例，我們的自給率大概是88%到90%，每年進口大概10萬噸左右，會有消長的部分，所以我們還是以支持國內產業為最主要的談判前提。"],["許委員宇甄：希望農業部針對我國食安的問題，這個部分絕對不能讓步。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","請黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員不在。","請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","下一位請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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那我們是不是請這個 能源部陳部長來 請陳部長部長好 這個美國的關稅 對台灣的關稅本來是32%今天早上一早這個接到消息變成10%那部長是哪時候知道這個訊息的"},{"start":28.562,"end":55.707,"text":"我大概六點的時候我知道它是凌晨發布的但是我在凌晨之前就先睡了我是早上醒來的時候知道那看到這個新聞你感受心情怎麼樣我第一個時間覺得說我們有更多的時間爭取了一些更多的時間能夠在產業上面來做有效的溝通然後去做針對現在目前的政策做滾動的一個檢討的一個機會"},{"start":58.368,"end":84.802,"text":"那現在這個關稅這部分的話這個美國他是有點名有一些這個非關稅的一些障礙那其實有一些是跟農業部稅有相關的那之前有點名就是說那包含這個稻米、基改等作物包含這個美豬美牛等等那請問一下在接下來這個談判的這個90天還有一個緩衝期那農業部這方面要怎麼樣做因應我想"},{"start":85.462,"end":102.809,"text":"我們一定會配合整個談判小組的一個談判策略不過從農業部的立場而且談判小組也充分的已經體認認知到其實農業的產業跟其他的工業產業它有它的特殊性最主要是它具有肩負糧食安全的一個非常重要的一個責任"},{"start":103.709,"end":124.867,"text":"所以在這個前提之下我們在做後續的跟美方做溝通跟談判的過程中一定會維持我們產業穩定的發展還有農民的權益為前提所以針對現在目前已經設定比較高的那個關稅的情況之下我們會盡量的去維持但是雙方之間如果是一個互補的"},{"start":126.108,"end":140.835,"text":"這些產品的話我們可以考慮做某種程度的調整但是調整也不是一次到位而是像有一些階段性的我們會朝這個方向去努力因為我們的關稅就農業產品來講的確是比較高所以說我是比較擔心說在談判的過程當中會不會影響到我們農民的權益"},{"start":150.22,"end":165.54,"text":"對 所以我想我們會就是針對台灣產業已經有一個發展的我們會盡量會守護著這樣的一個產業的一個強調那美國進來的現在目前最大宗的還是黃小玉他們所在乎的那黃小玉本身的關稅就是零了"},{"start":166.181,"end":188.109,"text":"他關稅就是零了所以基本上是沒有什麼影響他可能影響的就是說我們現在有的包括媒體所講的那個豬跟雞的部分那這個部分其實我們產業一定有一個產業鏈在那邊的那我想我們一定會守護我們的產業維持我們產業永續發展為前提去跟美方去談有哪一些是農業部認為說在談判過程當中不能夠退讓的"},{"start":192.14,"end":211.963,"text":"我想不能夠推斷我剛才所提到的就是說我們目前對產業可能衝擊性比較高的這些產業那這個產業對糧食安全有影響的我們盡量會跟美方去做一個說明每一個國家它的農產品它都有不同的保護性的一個措施在那邊"},{"start":213.124,"end":226.594,"text":"對 我想整個關稅我們會配合談判小組去談那至於說細節的部分我想我現在變在這邊去說明哪一些是可以處理 哪一些是不可以處理的OK 好 謝謝部長接下來我們請經濟部的次長好 請次長"},{"start":236.172,"end":264.358,"text":"委員好 市長請教一下那雖然像台灣現在關稅是90天裡面是降成10%嘛那中國他是增加他是這個104現在變成125啦那當然我們還有台商在中國雖然已經這個第一次川普執政的時候已經陸陸續續的回到台灣是回到東南亞了那這樣子對於台商的影響你們有評估到嗎因為接下來川普對於中國的這個壓力應該會越來越大"},{"start":266.108,"end":280.609,"text":"我們台灣的廠商在全球佈局它裡面這幾年我們觀察到一個狀況就是2020年的時候當時常駐在中國的台灣人大概有100萬人但是這個數量在減少"},{"start":282.664,"end":304.281,"text":"有一些是回台灣投資有一些是到其他的地方去佈局所以我們積極的推動三大投資方案我們也統計到上個月月底為止台商回台投資的部分已經超過1.3兆那我們持續的在做這個部分希望說看看可不可以擴大對台商的這個協助對"},{"start":305.402,"end":317.141,"text":"因為現在還是有財商留在那裡嘛那因為現在美國對中國的課稅是高達125%有可能會再增加如果這個中國還在這個奉陪到底的話那我是說問台商的影響那我們應該怎麼做勒"},{"start":319.381,"end":345.907,"text":"我們第一個持續的透過我們跟產業界的座談或是工協會的座談收集到他們的意見然後把這個相關的意見給這個海基會透過他做必要的一個協助那除此之外的話持續關懷台商因為台商都他都有一些台商的協會的這個部分這個部分也是我們可以收集資料的一個最重要的一個來源"},{"start":347.315,"end":375.231,"text":"我的意思是說在川普在2016第一次執政的時候因為他對中國他把他視成是一個敵對的國家經濟上面或是國防上面對他有影響所以那一次也間接造成這個我們產業回到我們台灣然後這一個也那我們也希望說有那個南向政策那我現在的意思是說那川普現在在執政了那一樣施加這麼大的壓力給中國那是不是有可能再一次促成這個在中國的這些台商再回來台灣或是說這個因為東南亞現在"},{"start":377.731,"end":403.716,"text":"這個課的關稅也很高那是不是有這個計畫讓台商再回流不是只有說去關懷他們或是說這個問他們有什麼樣的問題或是說類似這種產業結構再變動的一個比較大的一個架構你們有沒有去想到這個當然有我剛剛講三大投資方案其中台商回流的部分那透過我們跟院裡面院裡面已經有合訂延長這個計畫那我們希望擴大辦理那"},{"start":406.377,"end":423.553,"text":"我們審視過去台商回台包括台灣的這個產業的這個轉型的這個過程裡面我們發現說即便是相當傳統的產業他可以因為科技的運用包括數位的轉型讓他的產品的質量素質提高"},{"start":424.093,"end":441.26,"text":"所以在這一次我們所提到的880億元的這個規劃裡面有一個研發轉型的部分那研發轉型的部分當然我們對中小企業我們會來與協助除了中小企業之外產業聯盟也可以啊以大代小也都可以這個都是在我們的規劃方案裡面"},{"start":443.502,"end":457.837,"text":"因為我初看那個計畫啦,我想說那個是對於台灣的產業好像是這個協助的地方比較多,好像比較少是說是在中國的台商或是其他地方的台商回來的這方面的協助啦"},{"start":458.376,"end":473.496,"text":"當然我們希望說他先回來台灣投資我們希望我們更留台灣嘛所以我們除了台商回台投資我們優化我們的投資的環境這是政府應該去做的一個事情好 謝謝市長 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不是事實上我跟委員報告事實上匯率的這個議題是美國財政部在主導的是美國財政部在主導"},{"start":81.534,"end":85.156,"text":"所以匯率這個問題說實在的連美國的以前的財政部長他都一直認為匯率這個價格說實在的是很難去說它哪一個匯率價格是合理的"},{"start":101.514,"end":127.794,"text":"因為我們諮詢的時間很有限你直接回答問題就好了因為美國認為說外匯市場人會干預是其中一個非關稅的貿易障礙他沒有講這句話在他們的報告裡面有啦他說是匯率超重他沒有說是匯率干預匯率超重是誰來決定的匯率超重是財政部在決定的"},{"start":128.561,"end":136.946,"text":"你說是我們美國財政部在決定的他是說台灣台灣的匯率超重沒有啊我們沒有匯率我們沒有超重啊根據美國前幾次的匯率報告裡面呢我們都是"},{"start":144.011,"end":145.432,"text":"都是那個觀察名單那觀察名單裡面我們是兩項去符合他的觀察名單的兩項第一項是經常帳順差第二個就是說我們對美國的順差那這兩項都跟中央銀行所以總裁你認為說"},{"start":162.146,"end":172.188,"text":"美方認為的可能的一個非關稅的貿易障礙其中一個外匯市場我們這邊沒有我們沒有所以這個部分要排除我們有調節但是我們沒有操縱我們沒有操縱有沒有調節或操縱那個是他們的認知現在主要是美國在他們把關稅提高叫大家來談川普的態度也很高川普說現在大家都排隊要等著去"},{"start":188.931,"end":213.767,"text":"去拍他馬屁啊所以現在的不是我們講什麼是他怎麼認定嘛所以假設今天要去跟他談判的時候你會去跟他講說沒有我們絕對沒有干預到外匯出廠沒有操縱也只有調節我剛剛就跟委員報告了嘛事實上匯率的這個議題呢是美國財政部在主導的嘛不是美國的那個商務部嘛"},{"start":215.266,"end":228.878,"text":"不是美國的商務部啊美國財政部川普要跟你談的話他美國的財政部我跟我有報告現在美國政府很多官員跟川普一直都不一樣他大概在四月中謝謝總裁那我接下來問一下那個經濟部次長經濟部次長有來嗎 沒有來後次長請"},{"start":245.442,"end":265.865,"text":"委員好次長那個因為我們現在要談判其中有一項是要加大對美投資那當然大家都會關心台積電那按照川普的說法台積電是因為他自己去的啦他說因為他跟台積電講如果你不來的話我要課你100%的關稅所以他是自己去的這個次長你認同這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":267.462,"end":291.614,"text":"我想這個台積電有他的這個全球佈局的考量那因為他的很多的客戶因為我跟你講我會這樣問是因為昨天你們部長 郭部長講說即便是川普把關稅拉到32%對於我們的晶圓產業也不會有什麼半導體也不會有什麼影響他是這個意思那如果按照這樣的邏輯的話那川普用百分之百去跟台積電說那台積電"},{"start":293.375,"end":296.025,"text":"會因為這樣子跑過去投資嗎所以你認同川普這樣講的話嗎好"},{"start":298.905,"end":322.73,"text":"我想那個台積電有他的這個我問你認不認同啦我是問台積電怎麼樣我是問你認不認同我會這樣講是說現在因為我們要談判當然就要有籌碼嘛那台積電已經宣布要去投資但是經濟部投審會還是可以審查對吧所以我們對於這個審查會不會當作是台美談判的其中籌碼之一"},{"start":324.224,"end":350.982,"text":"會不會跟委員報告其實我們在這個投資談判這個任何的這個對美的談判其實包括投資包括採購這個部分都會納入到整個談判的這個內涵裡面那我想我們也都會把我問的問題很具體啦我說針對台積電投審會的審查因為也有人呼籲說要嚴格審查然後當作談判籌碼之一有可能嗎"},{"start":352.044,"end":377.61,"text":"當然我們在投審會在審查的時候一定會考慮到整個國內的這個產業的這個競爭力的部分還有整個產業的一個全球佈局的需要那這個美國的這個談判的部分我想我們都會綜合的考量啦OK 謝謝好 謝謝右邊的諮詢下面羅美玲 羅美玲 羅美玲我們不在"},{"start":378.69,"end":383.254,"text":"許宇珍許宇珍許宇珍我們不在我們不在陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1354,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時18分）主席好，麻煩先請楊總裁。"],["主席：總裁，請。"],["楊總裁金龍：葉委員早。"],["葉委員元之：總裁好。這次要去跟美國談判，除了用零關稅為基礎─這是總統講的啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["葉委員元之：除了以零關稅基礎去談，也有很多專家指出，美國更在意的其實是一些非關稅的貿易障礙。其中一項跟央行有關啦！就是人為干預匯率。這個問題，我其實想問一下總裁的意見，因為如果我們要跟他們談，當然也涉及臺灣要加大對美國的採購嘛！而採購又涉及匯率，當然對我們來講的話，臺幣匯率愈高，對我們採購可能愈有利嘛！可是美國又認為外匯市場的人為干預是貿易障礙，在這個部分，總裁認為應該要怎麼拿捏啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，他們沒有說外匯市場的干預是貿易障礙，不是。"],["葉委員元之：這是一些專家講的啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。我跟委員報告，事實上，匯率的議題是美國財政部在主導的。對於匯率這個問題，說實在的，連美國以前的財政部長都一直認為很難說哪一個匯率價格是合理的，很多美國的……"],["葉委員元之：不！總裁，因為我們質詢的時間很有限……"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊！"],["葉委員元之：你直接回答問題就好了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["葉委員元之：美國認為外匯市場人為干預是其中一個非關稅貿易障礙……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有講這句話。"],["葉委員元之：在他們的報告裡面有啦！他們之前有一些報告裡有。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，他說的是匯率操縱。"],["葉委員元之：匯率操縱？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，他沒有說匯率干預。那麼匯率操縱是由誰來決定的？匯率操縱是財政部在決定的。"],["葉委員元之：你說是我們……"],["楊總裁金龍：是美國財政部在決定的。"],["葉委員元之：美國財政部？但他是說臺灣的匯率操縱。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！我們對匯率沒有操縱啊！"],["葉委員元之：我們沒有操縱喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們沒有。根據美國前幾次匯率報告，我們都是觀察名單。在觀察名單裡面，我們是符合觀察名單標準的兩項：第一項是經常帳順差，第二個就是我們對美國的順差。而這兩項都跟中央銀行沒有關係。"],["葉委員元之：所以總裁認為就美方認為可能的非關稅貿易障礙之中，我們沒有外匯市場人為干預嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：我們沒有，所以這個部分要排除……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我們有調節，但是沒有操縱。"],["葉委員元之：調節？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們沒有操縱。"],["葉委員元之：不，有沒有調節或操縱，那是他們的認知嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：那個是誰來決定……"],["葉委員元之：現在主要是美國把關稅提高，叫大家來談嘛！川普的態度也很高傲，他說現在大家都排隊等著拍他馬屁啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上在那邊……"],["葉委員元之：所以現在不是看我們講什麼，而是他怎麼認定嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：假設今天要去跟他談判，你會跟他講「沒有！我們絕對沒有干預到外匯市場，沒有操縱，只有調節。」是這個意思？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛就跟委員報告了嘛！事實上，匯率的議題是美國財政部主導的，不是美國商務部。"],["葉委員元之：美國財政部？川普要跟你談的話……"],["楊總裁金龍：關於美國財政部，我也跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：現在美國政府也有很多官員意見都跟川普不一樣啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：美國財政部大概在4月中的時候……"],["葉委員元之：好了，謝謝總裁。","我接下來問一下經濟部次長。有來嗎？沒有來？"],["主席：何次長，請。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長，因為我們現在要談判，而其中有一項是加大對美投資，當然大家都會特別關心台積電啦！那按照川普的說法，台積電是自己去的，因為他跟台積電講「如果你不來的話，我要課你百分之一百的關稅」，所以它是自己去的。次長，你認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我想，台積電有它全球布局的考量，而它很多客戶，包括大客戶都在美國。"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，我會這樣問是因為昨天你們部長─郭部長講，即便川普把關稅拉到32%，對於我們的晶圓產業、半導體業也不會有什麼影響啦！他是這個意思啦！如果按照這樣的邏輯，川普用百分之百去跟台積電說，台積電會因為這樣跑過去投資嗎？所以你認同川普這樣的話嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我想台積電有它的全球布局啦！"],["葉委員元之：我在問你認不認同啦！不是問台積電怎麼樣，我是問你認不認同。"],["何次長晉滄：因為……"],["葉委員元之：我會這樣講，是因為現在我們要談判，當然就有籌碼嘛！台積電已經宣布要去投資，但經濟部投審會還是可以審查，對吧？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以我們對於這個審查，會不會當作臺美談判籌碼的其中之一？會不會？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們在任何對美談判，包括投資、採購，都會納入整個談判的內涵裡面，我想我們也都會把所有資訊……"],["葉委員元之：我問的問題很具體啦！我是說針對台積電，投審會的審查……因為也有人呼籲嚴格審查，當作談判籌碼之一，有可能嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：當然投審會在審查的時候一定會考慮到國內產業競爭力還有整個產業全球布局的需要，與美國談判時，我們都會綜合考量。"],["葉委員元之：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員的質詢。","羅美玲、羅美玲，羅美玲委員不在。","許宇甄、許宇甄，許宇甄委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","陳培瑜、陳培瑜，陳培瑜委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","黃健豪、黃健豪，黃健豪委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","報告委員會，今天登記發言委員已經完全詢答完畢。","現在進行討論事項第一案、第二案以及臨時提案，共5案的處理，預計宣讀時間15分鐘。宣讀完畢以後即進行協商，與法案無關的相關部門行政長官可以先離席。所以就是留下財政部的長官，其他人都可以離開了。","請議事人員宣讀，然後請各黨團先進、同仁call你們的委員過來處理。","INCLUDEPICTURE 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三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971231906a1ad138a578f9600c3f6b437ac21a30f584bceeba99a97a7da599bb11f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:53:13 - 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同時祭出了這個棍子跟這個胡蘿蔔那當然我們也看到了它的這個針對性所以說它想要這個除了這個貿易逆差之外想它對這個中國的這個針對性是非常非常的強的"},{"start":107.512,"end":133.206,"text":"那當然我們也看到川普這兩天的操作也讓未來呢說實在的不確定也是增加了非常的多所以三個月你說很長嗎其實沒有啊到底我們三個月內能不能進到這個談判的這個順序裡面我們到底排的這個順序是在前面還是後面其實這個也是讓我們非常的擔心那當然因為川普的不確定性當然三個月內如果75個國家還沒有談判完畢的話我在想這有沒有機會"},{"start":137.388,"end":151.264,"text":"三個月後如果我們排了三個月後我們有沒有機會還是一樣可以坐上這個談判桌因為機會是給準備好的人我們做了充分的準備川普總統上任到現在80天那未來還有90天我們可以談判"},{"start":152.185,"end":174.225,"text":"那我跟委員報告事實上從川普當選的那一天我們總統就指示行政院我們已經針對台美經貿的工作尤其是談判做了很多分工所以最近為什麼那麼快速的可以盤點完再做一些調整因為他現在政策很具體那這個時候我們跟他從管道已經建立到實質內容"},{"start":176.167,"end":202.188,"text":"到底是誰會先談或談得好不好取決於你的準備也就是你要跟他談判的內容你看越南的例子越南罪長講所謂的零關稅的這個作為他跟美國談判可是你看美方的官員他馬上就講說不是用講的因為這裡面涉及到的很多的不管是你關稅怎麼樣去降哪些這個包括一些貿易的障礙"},{"start":203.294,"end":220.75,"text":"他就指出很多的這些貿易障礙也要排除所以我們要談的包括說你要去讓雙方面的貿易能夠比較公平的話一方面是我們要增加它的進口"},{"start":221.892,"end":247.06,"text":"那同時呢我們怎麼樣去投資它那就不用透過我們的出口而是直接包括投資美國或採購這個方式很簡單就是這個怎麼樣去出口到美國的能夠相對它進口的我們能夠把這個貿易上任的時候我們就已經在做準備了嘛對不對所以我們在每樣做的包含經售的這個經購的這個部分也是嘛"},{"start":247.66,"end":268.015,"text":"對 我跟委員簡單講一下比如我們有一個聯力方程式的話那每一個變數啊我們怎麼樣加起來之後可以縮短貿易事實上台美的貿易是去年2024史上最高是因為我們透過像AI Server或顯卡或這些電子資通訊半導體的產品那類似是歷史新高那隨著我們投資美國它會下降"},{"start":268.935,"end":284.811,"text":"同樣我們降低關稅或是比較對等的時候他進口台灣會增加所以這個公式其實是很容易去加加減減之後就能夠告訴川普政府說我們要做什麼事會有什麼結果所以川普政府的官員都說你要告訴我你要做什麼數字是什麼"},{"start":286.693,"end":297.926,"text":"他不是要一個口號那個如果說輕弱就會寡性啊到時候也會造成可能更大的一個不利的反應所以我們的這個工作同仁真的是沒面沒力尤其是4月2號那一天之後啊到5號到9號到今天"},{"start":302.631,"end":314.32,"text":"那我也可以跟委員報告就是說我們基本上他們提出的問題啊我們大概都有事先做準備那已經做了重新的盤點跟調整那現在就整個上談判桌就實質的項目跟內容一項一項來談我們是非常的以務實的態度而且是相當有準備"},{"start":321.986,"end":337.738,"text":"至於說他這個關稅既是目的也是手段他當然希望能夠平衡關稅可是他也希望用這個做槓桿那他要的是什麼那我們怎麼樣不會陷入被動而是我們藉由他要的去達到我們要的這也就是為什麼我們要組成台灣投資美國隊"},{"start":344.002,"end":358.277,"text":"那同時我們也期待美國投資台灣隊所以我剛剛在委員問題裡面有提到說我們不只是台美我們到第三國瓜地馬拉也好菲律賓也好都可以一起去投資強化台美經貿的合作跟我們的韌性"},{"start":359.389,"end":383.145,"text":"所以簡單的講就是說我們就是看美國他需要什麼那我們針對他的問題然後我們跟他去做這方面就是主軸我們就是先拉出來他要的是什麼我們能夠提供後續能夠提供什麼嗎那再來還有一點我想我們始終還是要坐上這個談判桌剛剛部長你有提到的所謂的零關稅像越南他一開始就提出說OK他們就要從零關稅開始談我們的總統也提到說我們要從零關稅開始談"},{"start":389.789,"end":418.028,"text":"那當然這個部分我們還是必須要回到之前我們跟拜登政府所簽訂的台美21世紀貿易倡議這個部分那這部分在去年底的時候已經生效了那現在好了第一階段對第一階段去年生效是沒錯那當初我們跟台美希望說利用這個堆積木的方式來堆疊那希望成為未來FTA的一個基礎吧我們本來想說用這樣子的方式那現在會不會就是因為這一波高額關稅的這個談判我們直接把這個過程給拿掉了"},{"start":419.269,"end":433.654,"text":"那直接進入它用這個FTA的模式來談會嗎這個部分可能待會請這個委員問一個很重要的問題啦因為這個台美21季貿易倡議是拜登政府提出以後會用這個名稱我們不確定但第一階段12項裡面的5項已經達成也會執行那這個是屬於非跟這是非關稅的一些我們怎麼去做貿易啊的一個這個台美的一個合作"},{"start":448.325,"end":474.593,"text":"那這些項目其實在我們推動的時候就幫助我們其實今天我們為什麼準備那麼快跟當時的這個台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判我們台灣已經做很多條式所以就不會從零開始所以我想前面的這個堆積木是有一定效果可是川普比較像是他比較是想要建立一個模他是目標先講出來你要答應一起來做"},{"start":475.754,"end":486.785,"text":"然後再慢慢去蓋所以我覺得每一個人的領導風格不一樣所以我們要了解這個川普總統有他作為一個我想他是一個談判高手我們怎麼樣跟他對上我常常講說對齊對接到對應那最好是我們能夠對等的雙贏"},{"start":493.292,"end":507.947,"text":"台灣不要只是為了被迫回應我們一直在回應中去掌握我們這個主動然後我們要達到的我們的國家目標然後甚至路徑圖我們也告訴他們了所以那個總統所提到的五項或是你看對應這個川普政府裡面的這些經濟的官員"},{"start":512.472,"end":529.599,"text":"他都列得很清楚怎麼樣會對等貿易有貢獻的項目是什麼那我們有沒有去一一去救那些項目我們看怎麼去努力那這需要台美一起努力不是只有台灣不是我們這樣而已事實上我們台美關稅的這個順差並不是很大"},{"start":530.499,"end":551.874,"text":"他是用這一個所謂貿易逆差作為一個類似來談判的籌碼的時候那我們就是要先上談判桌你沒有上談判桌的話你再多的準備都沒有用那我們現在有一個第一步我們建立了一個溝通管道那也列入他談判的對象那我們就把我們的內容談判所有的give and take所有的這一些互相的策略的互動我們要把它一一的提出來那跟他能夠得到互惠雙贏的結果"},{"start":559.782,"end":564.598,"text":"林副長說得很好 我想那個經貿辦是不是要補充 你需要補充的部分嗎"},{"start":565.647,"end":569.589,"text":"我簡單補充一下就是針對這個台美21世紀貿易倡議他理論上因為美國川普總統有說有說明對於他現在的所有FTA或雙邊協定他們會去檢視未來要持續推動的可能性以及如何去強化那目前他沒有還沒有提到我們台美這個倡議他要如何處理但是從我們經貿辦的角度我們會努力去推動希望可以朝向未來如果要進行具體協商的話那我想"},{"start":593.158,"end":619.457,"text":"台美21世紀倡議我們現在委員這邊所列出來的這些貿易便捷化服務業國內規章反貪腐良好法制作業確實都是美國這一次在認定對等關稅它去所謂非關稅貿易障礙它去評估的來源所以我們有台美這絕對都是基礎對 所以它創造了很好的基礎所以我們會用這個去跟美國進一步的爭取OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝羅敏林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":169,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時53分）謝謝主席，有請林佳龍部長還有經貿辦。","部長，早安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：今天凌晨的事情確實是一個非常戲劇性又非常驚爆的大轉彎。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員美玲：我看到美股大漲，臺股一開盤就狂漲，媒體用「滿血復活」來形容今天的臺股。美國除了對中國的進口關稅提高到125%，而且是馬上生效，對於其他75個沒有去跟美國聯繫、沒有去談的、沒有採取報復行動的國家，就維持10%，甚至給予3個月的緩衝時間。","當然，今天一開始我們的定宇委員有提到我們到底有沒有在這75個國家裡面，而我看到林部長說其實我們已經掛號進去了，這也就表示我們就在這75個國家裡面，我們維持10%，而且有3個月的緩衝期，是不是這樣子？"],["林部長佳龍：對！"],["羅委員美玲：所以這是非常明確的。我們看到美國同時祭出了棍子跟胡蘿蔔，我們也看到了他的針對性，除了貿易逆差之外，對中國的針對性是非常、非常強的，我們也看到川普這兩天的操作，讓未來也增加了非常多的不確定。3個月你說很長嗎？其實沒有，到底我們3個月內能不能進到談判的順序裡面、我們排的順序是在前面還是後面，也讓我們非常擔心。因為川普的不確定性，3個月內如果75個國家還沒有談判完畢的話，如果我們排在3個月後，有沒有機會還是一樣可以坐上談判桌？"],["林部長佳龍：機會是給準備好的人，我們做了充分的準備，從川普總統上任到現在80天，未來還有90天我們可以談判。我跟委員報告，事實上從川普當選的那一天，總統就指示行政院，我們已經針對臺美經貿的工作、尤其是談判，做了很多分工，所以最近為什麼那麼快速地可以盤點完再做一些調整？因為他現在的政策很具體，這個時候我們跟他從管道已經建立、到實質內容，所以到底是誰會先談或談得好不好取決於你的準備，就是你要跟他談判的內容。","你看越南的例子，越南最常講以零關稅跟美國談判，可是你看美方的官員馬上就講說不是用講的，因為這裡面涉及到很多，不管是關稅怎麼樣去降、包括一些貿易的障礙也要排除。所以我們要談的包括讓雙方面的貿易能夠比較公平的話，一方面是我們要增加他的進口，同時我們怎麼樣去投資他，那就不用透過我們出口，而是直接投資美國或採購。這個公式很簡單，就是出口到美國的能夠相對他進口的，我們能夠把貿易……"],["羅委員美玲：這個部分應該是川普上任的時候我們就已經在做準備了，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員美玲：就是增加對美國的投資……"],["林部長佳龍：所以我們在每一樣做的……"],["羅委員美玲：包含軍購的部分也是，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員再簡單講一下，比如我們有一個聯立方程式的話，我們怎麼樣讓每一個變數加起來可以縮短貿易差距？事實上臺美的貿易在去年（2024年）是史上最高，因為我們透過像AI server、顯卡或電子資通訊、半導體的產品，那已經是歷史新高，隨著我們投資美國會下降，同樣地，我們降低關稅或比較對等的時候，他對臺灣的進口也會增加，所以這個公式其實是很容易加加減減之後，就能夠告訴川普政府我們要做什麼事、會有什麼結果。所以川普政府的官員那時候說：你要告訴我你要做什麼、數字是什麼，他不是要一個口號，如果輕諾，就會寡信，到時候也可能會造成更大不利的反應。","我們的工作同仁真的是沒日沒夜，尤其是4月2號那一天之後到5號、9號到今天，我也可以跟委員報告，基本上他們提出的問題，我們大概都有事先做準備，已經做了重新的盤點及調整，現在就等著上談判桌，就實質的項目及內容一項、一項來談，我們是非常務實的態度，而且是有相當的準備。","這個關稅既是目的、也是手段，他當然希望能夠平衡關稅，可是他也希望用這個做槓桿，他要的是什麼？我們怎麼樣不會陷入被動，而是我們藉由他要的，去達到我們要的？這也是為什麼為了投資美國，我們要組成臺灣投資美國隊，同時我們也期待美國投資臺灣隊。所以我剛剛在回答委員的問題時有提到，不只是臺美，我們到第三國，瓜地馬拉也好，菲律賓也好，都可以一起去投資，強化臺美經貿的合作及韌性。"],["羅委員美玲：所以簡單地講，我們就是看美國需要什麼，我們針對他的問題跟他去做這方面的……"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員美玲：就是主軸先拉出來，釐清他要的是什麼，再決定我們後續能夠提供什麼。","再來，還有一點，我們始終還是要坐上談判桌，剛剛部長您有提到所謂的零關稅，像越南一開始就提出他們要從零關稅開始談。我們的總統也提到我們要從零關稅開始談，當然這個部分我們還是必須要回到之前我們跟拜登政府所簽訂的臺美21世紀貿易倡議，這部分在去年底已經生效，那現在好了……"],["林部長佳龍：第一階段，12項裡面有5項生效。"],["羅委員美玲：對，第一階段去年生效，沒錯，當初臺美我們希望用堆積木的方式來堆疊，希望成為未來FTA的一個基礎，我們本來想用這樣子的方式，現在會不會因為這一波高額關稅的談判，我們直接把這個過程給拿掉了，直接用FTA的模式來談，會嘛？這部分可能待會請經貿辦來補充。"],["林部長佳龍：委員問了一個很重要的問題，因為臺美21世紀貿易倡議是拜登政府提出，以後會不會用這個名稱我們不確定，但第一階段12項裡面的5項已經達成、也會執行，這是屬於非關稅的一些關於我們怎麼去做貿易的臺美合作，這些項目其實在我們推動的時候就幫助了我們，為什麼今天我們會準備那麼快？因為當時臺美21世紀貿易倡議的談判，我們臺灣已經做很多調適，所以就不會從零開始，我想前面的堆積木是有一定效果。可是川普比較想要建立一個模，他是目標先講出來，你要答應一起來做，然後再慢慢去蓋，所以我覺得每一個人的領導風格不一樣，我們要了解川普總統有他作為總統的領導風格，我想他是一個談判高手，我們怎麼樣跟他對上？","我常常講說，對齊、對接到對應，最好是我們能夠對等的雙贏，臺灣不要只是被迫回應，我們要在回應中去掌握我們的主動、我們要達到的國家目標，甚至路徑圖我們也告訴他們了。所以總統提到的五項，或是你看對應川普政府裡面的這些經濟官員都列得很清楚，會對對等貿易有貢獻的項目是什麼，我們有沒有一一去就那些項目，我們看怎麼去努力，這是要臺美一起努力，不是只有臺灣、不是我們這樣而已。事實上，我們臺美關稅的順差並不是很大，他用所謂貿易逆差作為類似談判籌碼的時候，我們就是要先上談判桌，沒有上談判桌的話，再多的準備都沒有用。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["林部長佳龍：現在第一步，我們建立了一個溝通管道，也列入他談判的對象，針對我們的談判內容、所有的give and take、這一些互相的策略互動，我們要把它一一地提出來，跟他能夠得到互惠雙贏的結果。"],["羅委員美玲：林部長說得很好，經貿辦是不是要補充？你有需要補充的部分嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我簡單補充一下，針對臺美21世紀貿易倡議，因為川普總統有說明，對於現在所有的FTA或雙邊協定，他們會去檢視未來要持續推動的可能性以及如何去強化，目前他還沒有提到我們臺美這個倡議要如何處理。但是從我們經貿辦的角度，我們會努力去推動，未來如果要去積極協商的話，我想臺美21世紀倡議當中，現在委員這邊所列出來的這些貿易便捷化、服務業國內規章、反貪腐、良好法制作業，確實都是美國這一次在認定對等關稅時，他去評估所謂非關稅貿易障礙的來源，所以我們有臺美……"],["羅委員美玲：這絕對都是基礎。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，它創造了很好的基礎，所以我們會用這個去跟美國進一步的爭取。"],["羅委員美玲：好，以上，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：謝謝羅美玲委員的發言。","下面我們請黃仁委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160108","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712b597fff4e77583e639fb4699fde532611a30f584bceeba99a97a7da599bb11f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:12:47 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麻煩邀請我們央行的這個楊總裁"},{"start":12.236,"end":16.999,"text":"中華民國有5780億的美元外匯存底那有八成是買美債的那我想確認一下剩下的兩成大概是什麼性質我們買了歐元的"},{"start":37.486,"end":52.773,"text":"還有澳幣所以5780億原則上大概會是八成是用美金計價那其他的兩成會是就是其他的貨幣所以八成是美金其他就是兩成是一籃子的貨幣那過去我們會有八成那麼高的一個"},{"start":54.699,"end":68.834,"text":"選擇八成放在美金上面就代表說我們國家5780億的資產它是跟美金的價值在做聯動因為我們過去因為這個美元霸權的時代我們相信買美金放美元是相對安全的"},{"start":69.795,"end":84.233,"text":"但這幾年國際的貿易情勢有很大的一個變化包括對岸的崛起那包括近期是川普的就任造成了很多的不確定性那也造成了美元霸主的這件事情"},{"start":85.935,"end":100.144,"text":"很多人在存疑未來還能夠走多久這些事情不曉得央行這邊的判斷是怎麼樣那未來會不會去調整一下一攬子貨幣的一個美金所占我們總外匯的一個比例"},{"start":100.724,"end":123.733,"text":"會啦 我想委員講的也沒有錯就是說中央銀行也會密切注意事實上我們每天都是在評估這些必備的一個安全性它還有它的獲利性中央銀行的外群體我們最重要的第一個就是說它的安全性第二個它的流動性所以你講的這個沒有錯就是說我們要看情況做適當的一個調整"},{"start":126.674,"end":149.774,"text":"這個我們都隨時在做所以在川普宣布對等關稅的政策之後那我們央行的評估是會調升美金所佔的比重還是你們認為他的不確定性可能要讓我們暫時的去降低美金所佔的比重我們到目前為止還是密切的注意他的發展"},{"start":150.154,"end":169.307,"text":"所以目前還沒有要調整相關的比例那我想未來包括剛剛很多委員提到了可能包括對岸會用這個外匯的一個手段去做一些貨幣市場的一個戰爭那可能都會影響到美金的它的一個價值等等的有時候不一定是我們的判斷而是也要看一下其他國家"},{"start":170.207,"end":194.241,"text":"對於美金所做的操作那我希望說我們可能有四千多億的美金的價值那它隨便漲個一趴跌個一趴對於我們中澳民國的資產來說就有一個很巨幅的一個變動那也希望我們的央行繼續秉持我們的專業來調整好我們這個外匯存底一攬子的貨幣的一個比例是 沒有錯那個委員分析得非常好我非常贊同好 謝謝董來那我接下來請我們的經濟部市長黃市長 請"},{"start":200.287,"end":214.326,"text":"市長抱歉您邊走邊講喔就是這一次的大概就是90天內是10%嘛那10%這部分到底是國內的廠商要吸收還是這個買方要吸收甚至是還沒有"},{"start":215.467,"end":240.839,"text":"還沒有出貨的一個東西的一個製造它可能不是一兩天能夠做成它可能需要個半年一年它才能夠出貨譬如說船舶這些東西它都會被這10%影響那可能國內的廠商跟買家跟美國的買家就會產生一些糾紛或是過去的這個契約沒有寫到這麼細那有沒有廠商會遇到這樣的困難我們的經濟部會怎麼樣的來協助我們這些廠商這就是10%的一個爭議是"},{"start":243.04,"end":270.302,"text":"報委員 這個其實就是我們的廠商跟客戶之間他會有一些協議的一些行為大概就是說大家彼此怎麼樣去分攤還是說是由賣房還是買房來分攤對 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現在請葉元智委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1309,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩邀請央行的楊總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁，請。"],["楊總裁金龍：廖委員早。"],["廖委員先翔：總裁午安。誠如央行每個月的報告跟總裁剛剛的詢答，中華民國大概有5,780億美元的外匯存底，有八成是買美債的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["廖委員先翔：那我想請問一下，剩下的二成大概是什麼性質？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也買了歐元的。"],["廖委員先翔：歐元的？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，還有澳幣，日圓也有。"],["廖委員先翔：所以5,780億美元大概有八成是用美金計價，其他二成會是……"],["楊總裁金龍：就是其他的。"],["廖委員先翔：就是其他的貨幣嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，其他主要幣別。"],["廖委員先翔：八成是美金，其他二成就是一籃子貨幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["廖委員先翔：過去我們會有八成這麼高的比例、選擇八成放在美金上面，就代表我們國家有5,780億美元的資產是跟美金價值在連動，因為過去是美元霸權時代嘛！我們相信買美金、放美元是相對安全的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["廖委員先翔：但這幾年國際貿易情勢有很大的變化，包括對岸的崛起、還包括近期川普就任造成了很多不確定性，也造成很多人對美元霸主這件事未來還能走多久存疑。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["廖委員先翔：對於這些事情，不曉得央行的判斷怎麼樣？未來會不會調整一下一籃子貨幣以及美金所占我國總外匯的比例？"],["楊總裁金龍：會啦！我想委員講得也沒有錯啦！中央銀行會密切注意。事實上，我們每天都在評估這些幣別的安全性還有獲利性。對中央銀行外匯存底最重要的，第一個就是它的安全性，第二個是它的流動性，所以你講的沒有錯，就是我們要看情況適當調整，而這個我們都隨時在做。"],["廖委員先翔：所以在川普宣布對等關稅政策之後，央行的評估是會調升美金所占的比重，還是你們認為它的不確定性可能要讓我們暫時地降低美金所占的比重？目前的方向是？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們到目前為止還是密切地注意它的發展。"],["廖委員先翔：所以目前還沒有要調整相關比例？"],["楊總裁金龍：還沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：關於未來，剛剛很多委員提到了，包括對岸用外匯手段做一些貨幣市場的戰爭，可能都會影響美金價值等等，有時候不一定只靠我們的判斷，也要看一下其他國家對於美金所做的操作。我們可能有四千多億美金的價值，它隨便漲個1%、跌個1%，對於我們中華民國的資產來說，就會有很巨幅的變動，也希望央行繼續秉持專業，調整好我們外匯存底一籃子貨幣的比例。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，委員分析得非常好，我非常贊同。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝總裁。","接下來請經濟部次長。"],["主席：次長，請。"],["廖委員先翔：次長，抱歉，您邊走，我邊講喔！這次大概就是90天內是10%嘛！那麼這10%到底是國內的廠商要吸收，還是買方要吸收？甚至是還沒有出貨的東西，它的製造可能不是一、兩天能夠做成，而是需要個半年、一年才能夠出貨，比如船舶這些東西，都會被這10%影響，可能國內廠商跟美國買家就會產生一些糾紛，或許過去的契約沒有寫到那麼細。那麼有沒有廠商會遇到這樣的困難？經濟部會怎麼樣協助這些廠商，針對這10%的爭議？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，其實我們的廠商跟客戶之間會有一些協議的行為，大概就是關於大家彼此怎麼分攤、或者由賣方還是買方分攤。"],["廖委員先翔：對，但這應該是全面性的問題，每一個面對美國的廠商都會遇到這樣的問題，經濟部會不會成立一個專責窗口協助這些廠商？如果協調得好，當然最好；如果協調不好，經濟部會不會有一個單一窗口協助廠商去打貿易戰或法律戰？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實經濟部成立了一個單一服務窗口，經濟部有馬上辦中心……"],["廖委員先翔：包括法律問題？"],["何次長晉滄：對，我們都可以協助。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以廠商未來這10%關稅要負擔多少沒有辦法跟買方談好的話，經濟部會有律師協助這些廠商爭取他們應有的權利，這是確定的喔？"],["何次長晉滄：是，我們可以來協助。"],["廖委員先翔：確定喔？"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好。相關訊息都散播出去了嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員的質詢。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 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謝謝主席 有請經濟部 郭部長那個部長可能要趕到桃園 所以接下來是部長要趕到桃園 次長嗎因為早上有先同意部長那就有請代次長好 請次長代替"},{"start":32.192,"end":56.185,"text":"市長好市長今天台灣時間的凌晨美國對中國呢祭出了125%的這個出口關稅這也意味著未來中國洗產地的這行為會更加的嚴重那是不是也意味著台灣成為中國洗產地的這個跳板的狀況會更加的嚴重那雖然是說我們立法院在2019年的時候已經"},{"start":57.666,"end":71.492,"text":"三讀通過了這個貿易法的修正案那如果說廠商標示不實產地使用不實的貿易貿易證明文件等違法行為我們的罰款是由新台幣30萬大幅提升到300萬可是我們所看到的就是說其實這個貿易法修正案通過之後呢洗產地的這個狀況其實呢雖然稍稍改善可是還是發生了因為我們從報章的這個"},{"start":84.537,"end":107.594,"text":"媒體有發現就是說不管是漁業也好或者是說這個中國的監視器廠商的利用台灣做跳板等等這些都發生那再來未來可能會更加的嚴重尤其是這個125%的出口關稅現在已經正式實施了我想請問當然我有看到這個國貿署他有提供資料就是說"},{"start":109.135,"end":137.634,"text":"雖然說實施之後有稍稍減少稍微減少可是我是擔心的就是說這個出口關稅這個政策提高之後那台灣要如何因應我們香港的法律會不會想要來做加嚴這個部分我們有考慮過嘛因為目前剛剛我聽到郭部長所講的都是目前我們的這個目前所實施的這個政策那未來呢未來我們香港法律會不會來做加嚴"},{"start":138.567,"end":154.083,"text":"第一個非常感謝立法院的支持我們貿易法進行修正那這個財法如剛剛委員所說的我們會重演來做相關的查緝工作最嚴重的話還可以取消他的登記證就是現在法律就會這樣現在法律就是這麼做了嗎未來呢"},{"start":156.005,"end":158.108,"text":"未來會做滾動式的修正就對了現階段我們在這個時間點最重要要做的事情就是包括"},{"start":172.388,"end":193.047,"text":"這些產品的監視包括他從中國進來台灣甚至台灣輸美的部分這個我們貿易署跟財政部都有對接資料來去進行監測除此之外我們對於全國的所謂的進出口廠商或是生產廠商去進行宣導第三個部分我們希望"},{"start":193.928,"end":211.754,"text":"把我們過去所查緝出來的所謂的違規的這個名單把它列出來它是一個高風險的這個名單那我們從這幾個方面希望說來減少說因為請消或是違規轉運也就是委員所說的洗產地的問題"},{"start":213.325,"end":236.179,"text":"OK這部分的話我們應該還是會來做監控啦因為其實我們比較擔心是未來會有更多這種稀產地的這個事情會發生OK好那這個美國呢他這個高額關稅提出來之後其實我們也看到就是說行政單位也好或是賴總統也好其實在第一時間呢就已經定調了我們就是"},{"start":236.639,"end":253.85,"text":"不報復然後我們就需要來做談判以現在來看的話尤其是今天的一個大轉彎我們覺得我們的這個方向其實是正確的那再來我想請教的就是說現在我們有提出了881的這個支援方案嘛那當然也有很多人就說881到底夠不夠"},{"start":256.932,"end":284.034,"text":"到底夠不夠 未來我們有會想要考慮來增加嗎可是還有一點就是說我們有看到就是副院長鄭麗君副院長有提到說其實這個880億的支援方案其實是屬於階段性的這個措施那我們也都知道說這個部分可能也跟美國在談判的時候可能要特別提出來因為像中美貿易戰的話美國針對的其實就是中國長期的惡意補貼這部分他認為這是不公平的一個"},{"start":284.974,"end":307.335,"text":"一個行為所以他針對這一點這所謂的補貼的這個方案其實他有很多的這個意見那當然台灣的881的支援方案其實它是階段性的這個這個措施這個部分的話我們在談判的時候是會不會就是說特別跟美方來強調這個部分其實是階段性的措施跟中國的這個長期惡意補貼方案是不一樣的我們會特別強調這一點嗎"},{"start":308.94,"end":329.911,"text":"第一個我們的政府他已經有詳細的規劃包括談判的小組他應該有一個他就有一個週盤的沙盤推演這是第一個第二個我們今天剛剛委員所提到了880億我剛剛也是在行政院會去報告參與這個事情那基本上左院長說"},{"start":331.252,"end":345.006,"text":"九大面向二十項措施基本上是不會改變的而政府可以馬上做的就要先行來做只要協助廠商不管是在經費不管是在行政支持金融支持全力以赴"},{"start":345.669,"end":371.437,"text":"所以這個部分的話如果是說其實881可能就是現階段是這樣我們會是未來未來我們看這個局面的轉變也許我們也會加碼是這樣子的意思嗎我們會等待檢討也有可能只要可以協助了我們都盡量好謝謝因為時間的關係我想行政單位這段時間真的是辛苦了那我們也希望說這個危機很可能也就是台灣的轉機以上謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（12時11分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：部長可能要趕到桃園，所以接下來是次長，因為早上有先同意部長。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，那就有請賴次長。"],["主席：請次長代替。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：次長好。今天臺灣時間的凌晨，美國對中國祭出125%的出口關稅，這也意味著未來中國洗產地的行為會更加的嚴重，是不是也意味著臺灣成為中國洗產地跳板的狀況會更加嚴重？雖然立法院在2019年已經三讀通過貿易法的修正案，如果廠商標示不實產地，使用不實的貿易證明文件等違法行為，罰鍰由新台幣30萬元大幅提升到300萬元。貿易法修正案通過之後，洗產地的狀況雖然稍稍改善，但還是會發生，因為我們從報章媒體發現，不管是漁業或是中國的監視器廠商，利用臺灣做跳板等等，這些都有發生，未來可能會更加嚴重。","尤其是125%的出口關稅現在已經正式實施了，當然我有看到國貿署提供的資料，雖然在實施之後案件有稍微減少，可是我擔心的是，這個出口關稅提高之後，臺灣要如何因應？我們相關的法律會不會想要加嚴？這個部分有考慮過嗎？剛剛我聽到郭部長講的，都是我們目前實施的政策，那未來呢？未來我們相關的法律會不會加嚴？"],["賴次長建信：首先非常感謝立法院的支持，讓貿易法進行修正，這個裁罰誠如委員所說，我們會從嚴做相關的查緝工作，最嚴重的話還可以取消他的登記證。除此之外……"],["羅委員美玲：這是現在法律就會這樣，現在法律就是這麼做了，未來呢？是否會通盤檢討目前的相關法律，再加嚴修正？"],["賴次長建信：當然法規需要與時俱進，如果有檢討必要的話我們就會做。"],["羅委員美玲：未來會做滾動式的修正就對了。"],["賴次長建信：現階段我們在這個時間點，最重要的是對這些產品的監視，包括它從中國進來臺灣，甚至臺灣輸美的部分，我們貿易署跟財政部都有對接資料去進行監測。除此之外，我們也有對全國的進出口廠商和生產廠商進行宣導。第三個部分，我們把過去查緝出來的違規名單列出來，製成一份高風險名單。從這幾個方面希望減少傾銷或是違規轉運，也就是委員所說的洗產地問題。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，這部分我們應該還是會監控。"],["賴次長建信：是，一定要的。"],["羅委員美玲：其實我們比較擔心的是，未來會有更多這種洗產地的事情發生。美國高額關稅提出來之後，我們也看到行政單位也好，賴總統也好，其實在第一時間就已經定調了，就是不報復，然後要來談判。以現在來看的話，尤其是今天的一個大轉彎，我覺得我們這個方向其實是正確的。再來我想請教的是，現在我們有提出880億元的支援方案，當然也有很多人質疑880億元到底夠不夠？未來會考慮增加嗎？","還有一點，鄭麗君副院長有提到，這880億元的支援方案，其實是屬於階段性的措施，這部分跟美國在談判的時候，可能也要特別提出來。因為像中美貿易戰的話，美國針對的其實就是中國長期的惡意補貼，這部分他認為是不公平的行為，所以美國針對這個補貼方案其實有很多意見。當然臺灣880億元的支援方案，其實是階段性的措施，這部分我們在談判的時候，會不會特別跟美強調，這個部分其實是階段性的措施，跟中國的長期惡意補貼方案是不一樣的，我們會特別強調這一點嗎？"],["賴次長建信：第一、我們的政府已經有詳細的規劃，包括談判小組就有周全的沙盤推演。第二、剛剛委員提到的880億元，我剛剛也有在行政院的會議中報告，參與這件事。基本上卓院長說的九大面向、二十項措施不會改變，政府可以馬上做的就要先做，只要能協助廠商，不管是在經費、行政支持、金融支持，我們會全力以赴。"],["羅委員美玲：其實這880億元就是現階段的部分，未來若局面轉變，也許我們也會加碼，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["賴次長建信：我們會通盤檢討，只要可以協助的我們都儘量。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝，因為時間的關係……我想行政單位這段時間真的是辛苦了，我們也希望這個危機很可能也是臺灣的轉機，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。","請黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在。","請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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DC那邊的一些Lobby的單位來互動一下"},{"start":414.956,"end":431.63,"text":"這個部分我相信他們都非常努力的在進行他們是誰包含我們的駐美代表處或者我們在那邊的國安團隊等等對 外交團隊你們在沙盤推演在模擬議題的時候你們要看看有沒有管道"},{"start":433.985,"end":452.305,"text":"據我知啦 我所知啦川普總統的周圍以前他發言的人很近周圍他很信任的人最近會來台灣啊你們應該跟他看能不能連線上起碼講講好話吧是不是"},{"start":453.435,"end":477.786,"text":"謝謝委員的一個支持啦所以希望說在國難當頭這個時間部長你答不答應全力來為民把關好好來爭取最好的應對方式政府當然是秉持這樣的一個立場那你最近會不會去參與大罷免的活動我從來都沒有參與大罷免的活動啊"},{"start":480.329,"end":489.7,"text":"楊總裁你會去參與所謂的應該是沒有沒有是很好的莊部長沒有也很好再來請金管會主委"},{"start":495.563,"end":524.078,"text":"其實你是台灣的兩條金龍之一楊金龍、彭金龍本來是希望說能擋得住因為今年的蛇年是雙頭蛇雙頭蛇很兇的從過年初的時候有一些人在講希望說你們兩隻大龍可以壓住雙頭蛇小龍那主委這幾天你的心情怎麼樣"},{"start":526.697,"end":549.808,"text":"剛剛也有人問到我們就平常心因為儘管會面對這個資本市場管理波動本來就是我們每天都要面對的事情你平常心可以啊可是說有融資斷頭戶啊什麼時候會萬箭齊發我想今天其實我們每天都有監控剛剛也有人提到我們都非常關心這個問題因為影響到很多散戶投資人的一些的權益莊部長請回"},{"start":553.635,"end":567.963,"text":"是那這部分我們當然像我們在這個上個禮拜天我們第一個的措施就是針對這些可能未來的所謂的融資追繳沒辦法去補繳的這些投資人做一些一些動作"},{"start":568.723,"end":589.222,"text":"目前的情況如果股市跌到17000多點的時候我們現在的維持率大概是146今天應該會很大不同就是我們看到昨天跟前天大概就是增加了2%可是相對的來講今天反彈上來會不會是最終的逃民險"},{"start":590.644,"end":608.381,"text":"這個當然每個人我們儘管會不會對這個市場做什麼預判啦這完全投資人自己的決定所以市場要有量有量代表多空雙方自己有自己的判斷我想這是最重要的同志會 美國川普給我們90天的寬限期在談那談的情況會有幾種"},{"start":611.087,"end":614.032,"text":"如果90天又恢復說心情不大好還是要課你32%的關稅"},{"start":625.461,"end":653.406,"text":"金管會怎麼辦我想齁 這個我們對各種的情況包括這個三十二這件事情我們在這個星期一已經有有所反應了嘛我想這部分接下來本來這個剛剛成都總裁講的本來這個東西那個uncertainty本來就一直都存在那我們想說我們過去在金管會處理這個類似這個金融上面的波動特別是股市的波動我們有很多很多的相對應的方法來穩定市場對 上次喔"},{"start":653.826,"end":682.521,"text":"在這邊質詢的時候其實官員的回答是答錯了我說這個關稅的問題會不會造成國內中小企業上市櫃公司重大的影響你們查查看我們這個都有錄音的你們的回答是說影響不大經過這個詢答大概會有22間左右的上市櫃公司可能會有一些影響其他影響不大"},{"start":685.727,"end":710.952,"text":"那個回答是錯誤的沒有 那是我們那個其實當時的是我們交易所去做調查上市櫃公司針對那幾個被點名的國家我們在那邊的一些的出口跟相對的數字他們的回應說有22家對他們影響是比較明顯的可是你看看第一天你說影響不大全部都跌停在你的任內已經創了8個紀錄"},{"start":713.802,"end":735.14,"text":"一天跌幅幾千點?2600點創下有史以來的紀錄我想這全世界都面對到相同的問題啊所以主委你要小心啊未來再過90天以後怎麼辦?請你們做好準備我們一定是全力準備大罷免你會不會去搞大罷免當然不會不會好謝謝那請主席講"},{"start":739.68,"end":763.331,"text":"那主席長我們對這中小企業的應變啊你們要做最好的準備800多億是杯水車薪不夠的啊你能不能提高一點做準備我們先這是第一回合啦將來看情況來講第一回合我們的表現啊大家是很失望的啊你第二回合你要強一點啊"},{"start":766.274,"end":768.458,"text":"那最後問 大罷免你會不會去參與不會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1190,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時59分）主席、各位委員，出列席官員大家好。主席，可否請央行楊總裁、金管會彭主委以及臺灣證券交易所林董事長、主計總處。"],["主席：請楊總裁、金管會彭主委、林董事長、主計長。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員好。"],["羅委員明才：財政部長要不要來一下？財政部長也一起來一下好了，這些都是很重要的部會，經濟部也麻煩一下。"],["主席：請莊部長、經濟部何次長。"],["羅委員明才：大家一起來面對國難，大家要團結在一起，不要再搞什麼大罷免了。全世界遇到這個事情，大家都已經很緊張，每天都可能忐忑不安。總裁，你這幾天睡得怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我還好。"],["羅委員明才：老神在在。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們密切注意情況的發展。"],["羅委員明才：你要穩住啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：有，穩住了，新臺幣匯率有穩住。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，為什麼美國10年期的公債殖利率飆新高？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有新高啊！我剛剛提供的一個數據，就是前一陣子還沒有實施這個之前，它都到4.9%，後來它就慢慢的下來，下來到3.998%，但是最近上升到4.332%，從4%上升到4.332%，這個很高嗎？如果我們跟4.98%來比較的話，4.33%還算低啊！"],["羅委員明才：美元在川普之後的新世界，因為坦白講，上上下下我們也不曉得到底怎麼辦？更何況是一般的中小企業。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：各部會及重要財經單位都在這邊，現在感覺就是川普很重要，重要不重要？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，他很重要沒有錯，但是……"],["羅委員明才：現在變成我們在屋簷下不得不低頭，但是也沒關係，順著川普走，你想要平安健康才會有，所以總裁跟他要有一定的溝通，你跟他熟不熟？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然不熟。"],["羅委員明才：不熟？"],["楊總裁金龍：不熟，當然不熟。"],["羅委員明才：彭淮南總裁以前是直接就對上的，他有熱線，不是川普，就以前總統的內圍。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我就不曉得。"],["羅委員明才：可是現在的外匯存底，你買了多少美國公債？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們握有八成以上。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：八成以上。"],["羅委員明才：美金多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：八成以上，你就用5,700億乘上百分之八十。"],["羅委員明才：大概四千多億美元。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：其實四千多億美元，你是有話語權的，對不對？如果把我們逼緊了，我們沒路可去了，老娘跟你拼了！把所有的公債統統考慮贖回，有沒有這個可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這個就是有一點情緒的反應。"],["羅委員明才：情緒的，對啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：這是一個情緒的反應。我總覺得中央銀行要穩定市場，我們是密切的關注市場發展，然後妥善因應。"],["羅委員明才：對，我希望在談判的時候，央行可以成為談判代表的定心神針，至少你跟他談判要有籌碼啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我覺得是這樣，因為關稅的問題……"],["羅委員明才：因為台積電已經沒了，你至少還有這些籌碼。現在持有美國公債最多的是哪一個國家？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是日本跟中國大陸都持有很多。"],["羅委員明才：好，日本的配合度很高，那中國大陸現在持有的美國公債有多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不曉得，待會兒我再告訴你。"],["羅委員明才：幾兆？"],["楊總裁金龍：他也持有蠻多的。"],["羅委員明才：這個世界當然是實力為王，兩邊這樣吵來吵去，假設未來美元過去的傳統崇高地位不見了，中國大陸全部贖回，那會造成什麼樣的情況？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員所講的是一個假設性的議題……"],["羅委員明才：你要沙盤推演啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！當然這個假設性的議題是很難回答的。"],["羅委員明才：你知道每一件事情都應該做一個完整的沙盤推演……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我……"],["羅委員明才：比如禮拜一他說要給我們課32%的關稅，你有料到他突然說這70幾個國家先停止，先給90天的寬限期再慢慢談，這一點你有想到嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有想到啊！"],["羅委員明才：好，所以大家不要大罷免了，趕快回歸，把所有的108套劇本拿出來，包括金管會、財政部。我請教莊部長，未來我們的關稅，你的想法是怎麼樣？他如果調高！我們可以跟著調高嗎？是對等，還是卑躬屈膝，我們就隨便，配合他就好？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。不是卑躬屈膝，關於這個部分，行政院有經貿工作小組，也有談判的團隊，會去跟川普那邊協商。"],["羅委員明才：跟川普的誰？"],["莊部長翠雲：川普政府，我覺得這個部分，當然我們的國安跟外交團隊會在那邊，有相關的……"],["羅委員明才：我們的談判代表，財政部會不會去？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前那個團隊由鄭副院長領軍。"],["羅委員明才：鄭副院長會去？"],["莊部長翠雲：領軍。"],["羅委員明才：他領軍，那財政部有沒有一起參加？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部一直對有關財政部業務的部分，都有提供相關的資料給談判的團隊。"],["羅委員明才：好，那你派誰去？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前還沒有要求財政部派員，而且駐美代表處也有關務署的同仁在那邊的經濟組工作。"],["羅委員明才：你知道對美國的關係最重要，我們現在最重要的關係是跟誰？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們最重要的關係，現在面對川普這個關稅的措施，當然我們……"],["羅委員明才：你們有沒有找Washington DC，那邊的一些lobby的單位來互動一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我相信他們都非常努力的在進行。"],["羅委員明才：他們是誰？"],["莊部長翠雲：包含我們的駐美代表處，或者我們在那邊的國安團隊、外交團隊等等。"],["羅委員明才：你們在沙盤推演與模擬議題的時候，要看看有沒有管道。據我所知，川普總統的周圍、以前的發言人、他很信任的人最近也會來臺灣，你們應該看看能不能跟他連線上，起碼講講好話，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的支持。"],["羅委員明才：在國難當頭這個時間點，部長答不答應全力來為民把關，好好爭取最好的應對方式？"],["莊部長翠雲：政府當然是秉持這樣的立場。"],["羅委員明才：你最近會不會去參與大罷免的活動？"],["莊部長翠雲：我從來都沒有參與大罷免的活動。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁，你會去參與所謂的……"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是沒有。"],["羅委員明才：沒有是很好的，莊部長沒有也很好。再來請金管會。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：主委，其實你是臺灣的兩條金龍之一，楊金龍、彭金隆。本來是希望能擋得住，因為今年的蛇年是雙頭蛇，雙頭蛇很兇的。年初就有一些人在講，希望你們兩隻大龍，可以壓住雙頭蛇、小龍。主委，這幾天你的心情怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛有委員問到，我們就是平常心，因為金管會面對資本市場管理波動，本來就是我們每天都要面對的事情。"],["羅委員明才：你平常心可以，可是對所有融資斷頭戶，什麼時候會萬箭齊發？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們每天都有監控，剛剛也有委員提到，我們都非常關心這個問題，因為影響到很多散戶投資人的權益。這部分我們在上個禮拜天，第一個措施就是針對這些未來所謂融資追繳沒辦法補繳的投資人做一些動作，我想……"],["羅委員明才：是，依目前的情況，如果股市跌到一萬七千多點的時候……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在的維持率大概是146，就是今天應該會有很大的不同，我們看到昨天跟前天大概增加了2%……"],["羅委員明才：可是相對來講，今天反彈上來，會不會是最終的逃命線？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會不會對市場做什麼預判，這完全是投資人自己的決定。市場要有量，有量代表多空雙方自己有自己的判斷，我想這是最重要的。"],["羅委員明才：彭主委，美國川普給我們90天的寬限期在談，那談的情況會有幾種？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個其實……真的，跟委員抱歉，這不是金管會……"],["羅委員明才：比如情況A、B、C，如果90天後他心情不大好又恢復，還是要課我們32%的關稅，那金管會怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於各種情況，包括32%這件事情，我們在星期一已經有所反應了嘛！除了這個部分，接下來誠如剛剛總裁講的，uncertainty本來就一直都存在。過去金管會在處理類似這種金融上的波動、特別是股市的波動時，有很多、很多相對應的方法來穩定市場。"],["羅委員明才：主委，上次我在這邊質詢的時候，其實官員的回答是答錯了。我說關稅的問題會不會造成國內中小企業、上市櫃公司的重大影響，你們查查看。我們這個會議都有錄音的，而你們的回答是影響不大。經過詢答，大概對22間左右的上市櫃公司可能會有影響，其他影響不大。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不，上次跟委員報告的是針對幾個特定……"],["羅委員明才：那個回答是錯誤的！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，其實當時是交易所調查上市櫃公司，針對那幾個被點名的國家，調查我們在那邊一些出口與相對數字，而他們的回應中，有22家說對他們的影響是比較明顯的。"],["羅委員明才：可是你看看，第1天你說影響不大，結果全部都跌停，在你的任內已經創了8個紀錄啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是希望很穩定啦！"],["羅委員明才：一天跌幅幾千點？2,600點！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員明才：創下有史以來的紀錄。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想全世界都面對到相同的問題啊！很多，不是只有臺灣。"],["羅委員明才：主委，你要小心啊！再過90天以後怎麼辦？請你們做好準備。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們一定是全力準備。"],["羅委員明才：大罷免，你會不會去搞大罷免？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不會，剛剛我跟總裁、部長都說過了。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。","請主計長。我問最後一個。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，對於中小企業的應變，你們要做最好的準備，八百多億元是杯水車薪，不夠的啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：你能不能提高一點、做準備？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是第一回合啦！將來會看情況來處理。"],["羅委員明才：對於第一回合的表現，大家是很失望的啊！第二回合你要強一點啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：最後問，大罷免你會不會去參與？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["羅委員明才：不會？好。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅明才委員質詢。","下一位請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712b07a381bc6b2e804f11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba9909889872e64f964c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:03:20 - 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在場留言先進 列席的政府機關所長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請農業部陳部長 也請經濟部的郭部長好 請兩位部長"},{"start":25.333,"end":43.447,"text":"兩位部長好我今天的題目呢就是零關稅同盟強化台美貿易880億因應進口衝擊要顧農業我先請教一下郭部長如果上個星期美國政府川普的宣布是個晴天霹靂你覺得早上看到他說延緩90天的感覺心情怎麼樣"},{"start":44.875,"end":73.937,"text":"報告委員這也都在我們的預估之內都在預估之內難怪這幾天你都氣定神閒好這裡面呢說到因為後面我要問一下陳部長因為昨天我已經跟郭部長請教過了那目前呢川普是在暫停90天只抽10%好好了那有什麼連帶的改變呢來我們看一下下一頁那麼請教陳部長川普開出各國不對等的關稅清單目的是什麼譬如台灣莫名其妙是32%結果呢你覺得後來的結果從結果來看你覺得他的目的是什麼"},{"start":74.656,"end":91.155,"text":"我覺得他是一個談判員他就是一個要比你上談判桌而且呢他很清楚的要創造一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟他對中國高關稅 中委都要報復結果兩個越來越高越來越高然後呢其他的國家看看苗頭不對都說好了我們對等嘛因為只有對等"},{"start":92.613,"end":117.546,"text":"你對美國零 那美國也會對你零嘛所以大家都把對美的關稅降到零了結果這產生什麼問題呢 產生什麼情況呢 往下看就是說原來中國貨 效往美國的中國貨被誰取代被這些跟美國互為零關稅的同盟所取代 是不是這樣子中國貨出場啦 因為它太貴啦但是相對台灣去的啦 以色列去的變便宜了嘛 所以就改買"},{"start":118.82,"end":140.979,"text":"這些其他的同盟國的貨但是美國貨也賣不到中國去嘛 那換賣到哪裡去賣到台灣 賣到這些同盟國嘛 部長你同意嗎報告委員 我們針對你昨天的這些指導我們回去有做一些模擬 謝謝你的這個先見之明所以我們大概才會推估一些這個狀況"},{"start":142.677,"end":159.317,"text":"那對這個趨勢大概是朝您所指導的這個方向我想會這樣朝這個方向來發展謝謝郭部長的肯定那我也請教陳部長如果台灣降低對美關稅甚至到達零那能夠降低台美的貿易逆差嗎"},{"start":161.25,"end":185.245,"text":"我想某個程度現在不確定性還蠻高的最主要是從美國進到台灣的這些這些主要的農產品是以黃小玉為主那黃小玉這些飼料的這個部分最主要是跟我們產業的規模是有關係的所以說跟關稅的關聯性有一點但是還是看你的未納量好我們來看一下美國進口台灣對不起往上往上往上"},{"start":186.846,"end":200.598,"text":"好來美國進口美國的商品因為零關稅會什麼進口增加像黃小玉對不對當然有些是不受影響因為他的因素是非關稅因素不是關稅因素像汽車昨天我問過郭部長了嘛"},{"start":201.601,"end":222.106,"text":"那你日本車跟美國車都零關稅你要買什麼當然買日本車啦美國的火雞肉向來人家台灣人民就不喜歡吃嘛但是我們必須政策性的去擴大採購譬如買軍備買天然氣是不是這樣子那請教陳部長你認為目前880的方案是為了因應出口商品因為美國的高關稅而受到的衝擊嗎"},{"start":223.41,"end":247.313,"text":"原來的八百八十億以農業部門來講是一百八十億對然後我們一百八十億我先問你是為了因應出口嘛對不對是因應出口受阻嘛所以博部長是不是也同意原來的八百八十億也是為了因應出口受阻嗎這是我們第一步先能夠是個舒緩國內這些出口廠商那你覺得現在當初母親戶口90天之後有沒有出口受阻的這個憂慮了"},{"start":248.934,"end":269.404,"text":"沒有沒有 我們現在因為只有在 我們必須要快速在90天裡面看到最後的決定是什麼好 那個最後的決定是台灣跟美國都互相零關稅你覺得工業的這700億要協助出口受阻的 還有需要用到嗎你這邊都評估的是外銷的啊 申請資格都是要出口業啊農業部門的呢 這就外銷美國的產品啊 是不是這樣"},{"start":270.044,"end":298.508,"text":"報告委員 我想我們會評估各種不同的狀況這個是只是其中的一個狀況但是它可能發生的會根據全球的我相信美國不是只有談台美之間的狀況是的 我們要考慮到全球如果實際發生了是台灣對美國出口不受影響是台灣變成零關稅美國會進口很多我們受到影響那這個時候這881票調整使用的方向跟對象"},{"start":300.472,"end":315.538,"text":"好來陳部長就是你了來我們現在看很快的結我跟委員報告現在目前181大概是以出國轉向但是如果農業進口呢但是農業進口的部分我們會看最後的一個結果假如是美國進口台灣是零關稅的話呢我講農業部不可能"},{"start":320.541,"end":331.756,"text":"黃小玉本來就零關稅了對這不就有影響嗎但是那個雞肉牛肉的部分因為國內的比重非常低但是雞肉我們有一定的比重所以像我們國內有產業的話我們關稅不會輕易讓步所以"},{"start":336.102,"end":363.224,"text":"等一等 你說關稅不會輕易讓步如果台灣對美國不零關稅讓他的肌肉進來我們經濟部就沒有辦法零關稅去美國我跟委員報告所有的關稅在談判的過程中不是用國家的零關稅全部一致零關稅他會現在回到不同的產業別我了解 部長你的想法跟川普的不一樣他就是簡單我就是要你們站到台灣跟我美國站在一起零關稅自由貿易同盟"},{"start":364.285,"end":372.037,"text":"盡量不要有那些不是關稅造成的障礙所以零關稅會造成台灣肌肉的影響你同不同意"},{"start":373.288,"end":397.861,"text":"如果未來被迫接受我們互相互惠零關稅不過我想在我們現在目前談判的過程中我們還會堅持因為農業有它的特殊性我了解因為特殊性我們來看一下在WTO的時候往下看本來在WTO之後我們台灣稻米年長115萬噸WTO給我們的進口費容許在14萬噸裡面是零關稅但是超出的部分還是要課稅對不對是縱使是這樣子台灣的稻米的成本大概是四五十萬一公斤"},{"start":399.182,"end":414.236,"text":"但是如果說我們今天是零關稅,軍價可能是29,所以你要因應衝擊,因為時間快到了,我就請你衝擊,來往下看,郭部長換你了。這個裕隆汽車前兩天發出一個聲明,他說如果台灣對美國是零關稅,他的汽車進來零關稅的話,他們覺得會很難撐下去,你認同這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":420.429,"end":434.4,"text":"這個在現象上面可能會發生這樣子不過我們經濟部的角度來講我們還是因為我們有10萬多人的從業人員在所以我們會讓他轉型調整轉型調整譬如說台灣的電子零組件這麼強讓他轉型生產電動車這也是一個項目很好"},{"start":440.505,"end":465.358,"text":"陳部長這就是我希望農業部要及早因應的我是揣在蛋其實如果是台灣出口受阻其實相對農業縣受到的影響相對低但是如果台灣現在是進口是開放那麼我們農業縣受到的影響是大的但是如果出口沒有問題進口有問題我們郭部長只要擔心台灣的汽車裝配業等一些少數的產業但是如果農業部門我們就受到很大影響所以結論"},{"start":466.775,"end":479.475,"text":"是不是請農業部就我國 若我國對美的關稅降至零如何協助我國的農漁畜牧業因應衝擊提出農業報告 可以嗎可以 我們會做這樣的一個分析那多久可以給本席一個月好 謝謝 謝謝兩位部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時3分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請農業部陳部長和經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請兩位部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩位部長好，我今天的題目是「零關稅同盟強化台美貿易，880億因應進口衝擊顧農業」。我先請教一下郭部長，如果上星期美國政府川普的宣布是晴天霹靂，你覺得早上看到他說要延緩90天的心情怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個也都在我們的預估之內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：哇！都在預估之內，難怪這幾天你都氣定神閒。我要問一下陳部長，昨天我已經跟郭部長請教過了，目前川普暫停90天只抽10%，有什麼連帶的改變呢？川普開出各國不對等的關稅清單，目的是什麼？臺灣莫名其妙是32%，從結果來看你覺得他的目的是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得他就是一個談判的手段。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要逼你上談判桌？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且他很清楚的要創造一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟，他對中國高關稅，中國也對他報復，結果兩個越來越高、越來越高，其他國家看苗頭不對，都說我們對等。因為只有對等，你對美國零，美國也會對你零，所以大家都把對美關稅降到零。結果這產生什麼情況？原來銷往美國的中國貨被誰取代？被這些跟美國互為零關稅的同盟所取代，是不是這樣子？中國貨出場了，因為它太貴了，但是相對臺灣、以色列的變便宜了嘛！所以就改買這些其他同盟國的貨。但是美國貨也賣不到中國去，那換賣到哪裡？賣到臺灣這些同盟國嘛！部長你同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，針對你昨天的指導，我們回去有做一些模擬，謝謝您的先見之明，我們大概會推估一些狀況，趨勢大概是朝您所指導的方向來發展。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝郭部長的肯定。請教陳部長，如果臺灣降低對美關稅甚至到達零，能夠降低臺美的貿易逆差嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在不確定性還滿高的，最主要是從美國進到臺灣的主要農產品是以黃小玉為主，黃小玉這些飼料最主要是跟我們產業的規模有關係。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以跟關稅的關聯性有一點，但還是看你的胃納量。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，臺灣進口美國的商品，因為零關稅進口會增加，像黃小玉對不對？當然有些是不受影響，因為它的因素是非關稅因素，像汽車。昨天我問過郭部長，日本車跟美國車都零關稅，你要買什麼？當然買日本車。而美國的火雞肉，臺灣人民向來就不喜歡吃，但我們必須政策性的去擴大採購，譬如買軍備、買天然氣，是不是這樣？請教陳部長，你認為原來880億元的方案是為了因應出口商品因美國高關稅受到的衝擊嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：以農業部門來講是180億元，然後我們180億元……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問你是為了因應出口對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因應出口受阻嘛！所以郭部長是不是也同意，原來的880億元也是為了因應出口受阻？"],["郭部長智輝：這是我們的第一步，先舒緩國內這些出口廠商遭遇的壓力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你覺得現在川普宣布90天之後，有沒有出口受阻的憂慮了？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我們現在必須要快速在90天內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：回應？"],["郭部長智輝：看最後的決定是什麼。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果最後的決定是臺灣跟美國互相零關稅，要協助出口受阻的工業的700億元還有需要嗎？你這邊評估的都是外銷，申請資格都是出口業，農業部門只有外銷美國的產品，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會評估各種不同的狀況，這只是其中一種，但他是會根據全球的，我相信美國不是只有談臺美之間的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來想想看，如果實際發生了，是臺灣對美國的出口不受影響，但臺灣變成零關稅後，反而是美國會進口很多，導致臺灣會受到影響，到時候這880億元，是不是要調整使用的方向跟對象？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，陳部長，就是你了，我們往下看……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，目前180億元大概是以出口轉向，但是農業進口的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果變成進口呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會看最後的結果，我想農業部不可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：假如是美國進口臺灣是零關稅的話，哪些會受影響？一、二、三、四、五？"],["陳部長駿季：黃小玉本來就零關稅了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以不受影響，那雞肉？"],["陳部長駿季：牛肉的部分，因為國內的比重非常低，但是雞肉我們有一定的比重，國內有產業的話，我們的關稅不會輕易讓步。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等等，你說關稅不會輕易讓步，如果臺灣對美國不零關稅，讓他的雞肉進來，我們經濟部就沒有辦法零關稅去美國……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，所有的關稅在談判的過程中，不是用國家全部一次零關稅，而是會回到不同的產業別……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，部長，你的想法跟川普不一樣，他很簡單，就是要臺灣跟美國站在一起，零關稅自由貿易同盟，儘量不要有那些關稅造成的障礙。如果未來被迫接受我們互為零關稅，零關稅會造成臺灣雞肉的影響，你同不同意？"],["陳部長駿季：目前在談判的過程中，我想我們還是會堅持，因為農業有它的特殊性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，本來在WTO中，我們臺灣稻米的年產量是115萬噸，WTO給我們的進口配額，容許在14萬噸內是零關稅，但超出的部分還是要課稅，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：縱使是這樣，臺灣的稻米成本大概是一公斤四、五十元，如果我們今天是零關稅，均價可能是二十九元，所以你要因應衝擊。","郭部長換你了，裕隆汽車前兩天發出一個聲明，說如果臺灣對美國是零關稅，美國汽車進來零關稅的話，他們覺得會很難撐下去，你認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可能會發生這樣的現象，不過以經濟部的角度來講，因為我們還是有十萬多的從業人員在，所以我們會讓它轉型。"],["鍾委員佳濱：轉型、調整。"],["郭部長智輝：比如臺灣的電子零組件這麼強，讓它轉型生產電動車，這也是一個項目。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，陳部長，這就是我希望農業部要及早因應的，我是「剉咧等」。其實臺灣如果是出口受阻，農業受到的影響相對低，但如果是進口開放，那麼我們農業受到的影響是大的。如果出口沒有問題，進口有問題，郭部長只要擔心臺灣汽車裝配業等一些少數的產業，但農業部門就會受到很大的影響。所以結論，請農業部就「若我國對美關稅降至0%，如何協助我國農漁畜牧產業因應衝擊」提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我們會做這樣的分析，並提供給委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久可以給本席？"],["陳部長駿季：一個月。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝兩位部長。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","下一位請羅美玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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法務部政部長想請教我們副秘書長以及我們次長目前我們的科控載具大概有幾種"},{"start":28.579,"end":52.926,"text":"四種嘛對不對腳環手環還有這個手機以及這個居家讀取器那有關科控處分的命令大概有幾種類型科控處分在116條之二他有各種他有八款嘛他有各種排列組合去做組合預防逃逆嘛禁止進入禁止離開禁止騷擾接近電子報道對不對"},{"start":56.178,"end":79.532,"text":"那也就像司法院的報告裡面說的採用科控的目的是在於用科技設備監控來防止逃亡嘛那來確保審理程序順利進行那我想請教一下從110年4月科控防逃新制啟用到今年3月底法院的科控件數是多少"},{"start":82.144,"end":107.162,"text":"95件那檢查機關是多少123件所以兩者合計218件那今年1月我曾經向司法院所知詢問過當時就在關心這個問題那當時回函告訴我就是說這一段期間各法院使用科控的案件裡面都沒有逃逆的情形發生嘛是不是"},{"start":108.365,"end":125.2,"text":"所以成效還算不錯啦 都沒有逃逆的情形發生那我想請教就是說 在法務部的報告裡說科技設備監控開案件數也大幅增加嘛 112年到113年從30件成長到97件"},{"start":129.864,"end":151.557,"text":"然後這個漲幅3.2倍今年前三個月就已經到80件所以按照這個速度來講今年渴望大幅增加看來是很多好像也很樂觀可是我想從另外一個角度來問一下法務部你知道過去這幾年每年棄保潛逃的拒保人大概有多少棄保潛逃的人數"},{"start":157.706,"end":184.686,"text":"一千多人我回覆過委員我把這個也是你們給我的數據一千多人好一百一十年到一百一十二年拒保件數是一萬八千零五十八件拒保保證金沒入件數是三千四百九十一件棄保的比例高達百分之十九點三等於是五件就有一件棄保那棄保的那個件數"},{"start":186.147,"end":199.862,"text":"非常的驚人一年的話劍數就將近要一千劍這個其實是蠻恐怖的數字沒錯吧是對 蠻恐怖的數字那這數字其實高得非常可怕就是變成是說"},{"start":201.24,"end":216.318,"text":"我們也變成是我們今天犯罪偵訪的犯罪偵查以及說我們今天刑事訴追的一個很大的破口那這也是為什麼我不斷在推動棄保潛逃罪立法的初衷"},{"start":217.279,"end":241.62,"text":"那我想請教一下之所以不採取羈押用拒保是不是就是因為司法體系認為被告沒有逃亡之餘或逃亡之餘很輕微可是現在卻顯示出司法實務有大量棄保潛逃的情形那麼等不等於我們司法機關某種程度也嚴重錯估了被告逃亡的可能性"},{"start":242.728,"end":247.197,"text":"我請兩位都回答好了先請我們司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":248.493,"end":276.342,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁就是在那個去年一一三年的時候呢呃院方就院方自己齁發布通緝的有四千一百二十八件那但是其實這一些那個案件呢真正那個分析起來他不見得真的就是所謂的那個跑走了啦他有時候事實上是這個人他可能就是比較居無定所的所以那個短時間那個找不到我講的不是通緝啦是我講的是那個棄保潛逃這一塊啦"},{"start":278.122,"end":302.361,"text":"對 那但是所謂的那我講 你承不承認 你會認不認同確實有很大的落差存在剛剛我講的數據你也應該覺得很嚴重吧那可是 事實上在採取所謂的不管我們講說是相關的那個我們講形式偵查的程序的手段那很重要的目的就是實現我們形式的正義嘛可是 那為什麼有這麼大的落差"},{"start":303.717,"end":311.394,"text":"那是不是因為我們錯估了今天逃亡的可能性棄保潛逃的可能性有這個可能性嗎還是我請那個次長來回答一下"},{"start":312.294,"end":340.702,"text":"委員提到的是為什麼要不用羈押要選擇羈押替代處分的理由他是不是沒有這個逃亡的可能性 倒不是他用選擇這個羈押替代處分他是有羈押的原因事實但只是沒有羈押的必要性在必要性的時候他認為不需要以羈押來作為這個方法我懂啦 就算覺得程度沒到這個地方那必要性他其實是考慮一個比例原則的問題可是我告訴你喔 那我就要進到下一個問題我已經講了也不只是羈押的問題"},{"start":342.685,"end":369.108,"text":"很顯然保金這件事情對所謂的防逃的效能跟效率至少看到就有一個千箭破口一年我剛剛那個比例已經講得很高可是我剛剛前面為什麼要講誇你們的科控的成效你們在進行科控的部分都發現沒有這個問題就沒有逃走的問題是不是 沒錯還是你們資料給我是錯的"},{"start":370.939,"end":392.77,"text":"上面講那個科控的那個狀況 只要在科控狀況之下目前為止進行科控的還沒有發生有具體逃亡的事件 進行科控的所以我就要講就是說 這個實際上現在的那個科控的以今年來說 一年來說的目前科控的大概只有97件那比起現在民營均千件的棄保潛逃"},{"start":394.799,"end":422.368,"text":"這科控的比例似乎也是蠻低的那你是不是又變成我剛剛講第二個層次的問題你不只講羈押 羈不羈押跟隨棄保潛逃的判斷問題那科不科控呢科控的狀況比羈押手段的輕微性要低得多啦 沒錯吧那為什麼在採取所謂的相關防逃措施的過程當中科控的部分的使用的比例這麼的低"},{"start":424.724,"end":451.454,"text":"就檢察官的角度來看檢察官如果認為他有相關的事業檢察官原則上他是以羈押為優先最容易確保被告的未來的道庭所以他首先他會用羈押來做處理那在必要性或者比例原則的考慮之下他才會選擇用科控來處理所以案件上科控會比較少我跟你講 我跟次長說啦很顯然這些有一些系統性結構的漏洞跟盲點存在"},{"start":453.53,"end":478.972,"text":"當然我也覺得說你可以省著必要性可是事實擺在眼前就是這麼多的人逃亡不管是棄保潛逃還是用別的方式逃亡那以你們前面跟我講科控逃掉的件數是零比例是零的時候科控的所謂的手段的強制性又比羈押要低的時候"},{"start":479.966,"end":508.281,"text":"那我就馬上就問一個問題最具體的案例啊中文字的案例如果採取科控的話他棄保潛逃的可能性是不是就會大幅下降是不是這個案我們要談嗎這個抱歉我跟你講我覺得我真的是在這邊好像變成是什麼個案恐懼症還是個案的矛盾症這不是個案啦我只是講說今天這種情況之下科控的狀況"},{"start":510.879,"end":514.845,"text":"從這個事實面來講他在進行科控當中他事實上是沒有逃亡的從這個事實上來講他是沒有在科控的時候逃亡的"},{"start":523.305,"end":547.06,"text":"然後下一個就是另外一位遠東航空前董事長張剛維他有七次違反科技監控的警示行為有兩次出現在漁港附近然後他就被緊急拘提了 對不對改採羈押所以就避免了他的逃亡行為我在這邊其實都在肯定目前科控的效率"},{"start":548.448,"end":574.659,"text":"沒錯吧所以因此在這邊我是真的是誠摯的提醒一下不管是司法院跟法務部當然我知道也要尊重法官的裁量權啦可是法官的裁量權跟我們現在實質上犯罪這個所謂的那個防治以及所謂的實現我們刑事正義的這個需求人民的期待也不能落差這麼的大啊我現在剛剛講是普遍的例子就跑了這麼多"},{"start":576.189,"end":595.462,"text":"那跑這麼多事實上就等於我們犯罪我們今天國家的刑事正義不能夠去加諸在這些所謂犯罪者身上的話那就是台灣人民就是受害者啊那更何況還有一些重大的案件最近引發了極大的爭議那甚至都有司法人員要受到追究了嘛 對不對"},{"start":596.294,"end":623.567,"text":"那這種情況之下我覺得法務部跟司法院真的是非常有責任來去檢視這整個系統性結構性到底對於所謂的目前我們這個犯罪逃亡不管是氣泡剪刀或其他的太陽怎麼去防止特別是科控的工具如何使用我覺得這個真的是拜託大家啦就好好的來在這一部分來去把它加強琢磨可以嗎好那這麻煩兩位謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":627.302,"end":630.725,"text":"好謝謝那接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員傅坤祺委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時）主席，有請司法院王副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副祕。"],["羅委員智強：請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：部長沒有來，就請次長。"],["羅委員智強：請次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：想請教副秘書長以及次長，目前我們的科控載具大概有幾種？4種嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：腳環、手環，還有手機以及……"],["羅委員智強：居家讀取器啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對，居家讀取器。"],["羅委員智強：那麼有關科控處分的命令大概有幾種類型？"],["黃次長謀信：科控處分規定在第一百十六條之二有8款，有各種排列組合。"],["羅委員智強：包括預防逃匿嘛！還有禁止進入、禁止離開、禁止騷擾接近、電子報到，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：也就像司法院的報告裡面說的，採用科控的目的在於用科技設備監控來防止逃亡，以確保審理程序順利進行。那我想請教一下，從110年4月科控防逃新制啟用到今年3月底，法院的科控件數是多少？95件嘛！對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，95件。"],["羅委員智強：那檢察機關是多少？"],["黃次長謀信：123件。"],["羅委員智強：123件嘛！所以兩者合計218件。今年1月，我曾經向司法院索資詢問過，我當時就在關心這個問題，而當時回函告訴我的就是在這段期間各法院使用科控的案件裡面，都沒有逃匿的情形發生嘛！是不是？所以成效還算不錯啦！因為都沒有逃匿的情形發生。","那我想請教，法務部的報告裡說，科技設備監控開案件數也大幅增加嘛！對不對？112年到113年從30件成長到97件，漲幅3.2倍，而今年前3個月就已經到80件，按照這個速度來講，今年可望大幅增加，看來是很多、好像也很樂觀。可是我想從另外一個角度問一下法務部，你知不知道過去這幾年每年棄保潛逃的具保人大概有多少？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，棄保潛逃的人數有一千多人，我回復過委員。"],["羅委員智強：這也是你們給我的數據啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對、對，一千多人。"],["羅委員智強：好。","110年到112年具保件數是1萬8,058件，具保保證金沒入件數是3,491件，棄保比例高達19.3%，等於是5件就有1件棄保，棄保件數非常驚人，一年的件數就將近1,000件。這其實是滿恐怖的數字，沒錯吧？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["羅委員智強：對，滿恐怖的數字喔！這個數字其實高得非常可怕，也變成今天犯罪偵查以及刑事訴追中一個很大的破口，這也是為什麼我不斷推動棄保潛逃罪立法的初衷。","那我想請教一下，之所以不採取羈押、而用具保，是不是就是因為司法體系認為被告沒有逃亡之虞，或者逃亡之虞很輕微？可是現在卻顯示出司法實務上有大量棄保潛逃的情形，那麼等不等於司法機關某種程度也嚴重錯估了被告逃亡的可能性？我請兩位都回答好了。先請司法院副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，在去年（113年）的時候，院方自己發布通緝的有4,128件，但這些案件真正分析起來，其實不見得真的就是所謂逃走了啦！有時候是這個人比較居無定所，所以短時間找不到。"],["羅委員智強：我講的不是通緝啦！我講的是棄保潛逃這一塊。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，但是所謂棄保……"],["羅委員智強：那你承不承認或認不認同確實有很大的落差存在？對於剛剛我講的這個數據，你應該也覺得很嚴重吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是。"],["羅委員智強：可是，事實上採取相關刑事偵查程序及手段很重要的目的就是實現形式正義嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：那為什麼會有這麼大的落差？是不是因為我們錯估了逃亡的可能性、棄保潛逃的可能性？有這個可能性嗎？還是我請次長回答一下？"],["黃次長謀信：委員提到的是為什麼不採用羈押，而選擇羈押替代處分的理由、是不是沒有逃亡的可能性，倒不是。會選擇羈押替代處分是有羈押的原因事實，只是沒有羈押的必要性。在考慮必要性的時候，認為不需要以羈押防逃。"],["羅委員智強：我懂啦！就是程度沒到這個地方啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對，必要性其實是考慮比例原則的問題。"],["羅委員智強：可是我告訴你喔！那我就要進入下一個問題，我已經講了，不只是羈押的問題。很顯然，保金這件事情對所謂的防逃效能跟效率而言，至少就看到一年有千件破口，那個比例我剛剛已經講了，也是很高嘛！可是我前面為什麼要誇你們的科控成效？你們在進行科控的部分都發現沒有這個問題欸！也就是沒有逃走的問題，是不是沒錯？還是你們給我的資料是錯的？上面講了科控狀況、只要在科控狀態之下……"],["黃次長謀信：對，目前為止，進行科控的還沒有發生具體逃亡的事件，這是指進行科控的。"],["羅委員智強：好，所以我今天要講的是，事實上現在的科控以一年來說，科控數量大概只有九十幾件啦！比起現在年均千件的棄保潛逃，這個科控比例似乎也是滿低的。那是不是又變成我剛剛講到第二個層次的問題？不只講羈不羈押跟棄保潛逃的判斷問題，科不科控呢？科控的狀況比羈押手段有輕微性、低得多啦！沒錯吧？那麼為什麼在採取相關防逃措施的過程當中，科控的使用比例這麼的低？"],["黃次長謀信：就檢察官的角度來看，檢察官如果認為有相關事由，原則上是以羈押為優先，最容易確保被告未來的到庭，所以首先會用羈押處理，在必要性或比例原則的考慮之下才會選擇用科控處理，所以案件上科控會比較少。"],["羅委員智強：我跟次長說啦！很顯然有一些系統性、結構的漏洞和盲點存在。當然我也覺得可以審酌必要性，可是事實擺在眼前，就是有這麼多人逃亡，不管是棄保潛逃或透過別的方式逃亡。在你們前面跟我講科控之下逃掉的件數是0、比例是0、但科控手段的強制性又比羈押要低的時候，我馬上問一個問題、且是最具體的案例啊！鍾文智的案例如果採取科控的話，他棄保潛逃的可能性是不是就會大幅下降？是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：這個個案我們要談……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，我真的覺得這邊好像變成什麼個案恐懼症還是個案矛盾症。這不是個案啦！我只是要講在今天這種情況之下科控的狀況。還是你可以跟我講，科控其實也防不了他跑？"],["黃次長謀信：從事實面來講，他在進行科控當中，事實上是沒有逃亡的。從事實上來講，他是沒有在科控的時候逃亡。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！","下一個，另外一位是遠東航空前董事長張綱維，他有7次違反科技監控的警示行為，甚至有2次出現在漁港附近，然後他就被緊急拘提了嘛！對不對？還改採羈押，所以就避免了他的逃亡行為。我在這邊其實都在肯定目前科控的效率喔！沒錯吧？所以，我真的是誠摯地提醒一下，不管是司法院或法務部，當然我知道也要尊重法官的裁量權啦！可是法官的裁量權與現在實質上犯罪防制以及實現形式正義的需求、人民期待之間也不能落差這麼地大啊！像我剛剛講的，以普遍的例子就跑了這麼多，而跑了這麼多，實質上就等於面對犯罪時，要是我們國家的形式正義不能夠加諸這些犯罪者身上的話，那臺灣人民就是受害者啊！更何況還有一些重大案件，最近已經引發了極大的爭議，甚至都有司法人員要受到追究了嘛！對不對？在這種情況之下，我覺得法務部跟司法院真的非常有責任，要檢視在整個系統性、結構性方面，對於目前犯罪逃亡──不管是棄保潛逃或其他態樣要怎麼防止，特別是科控工具如何使用，真的拜託大家啦！好好地在這部分加強著墨，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：可以。"],["羅委員智強：好，麻煩兩位，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員。","沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員，都沒有到。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員會及本會。","我先補充一個東西，針對司法院還有法務部這邊，我想請教一下。我們星期一才去看科控中心嘛！而我看科控中心的時候有想到一件事情，但當天我並沒有提到，所以想請司法院跟法務部研擬一下，看看要怎麼做。在具保的時候都會有具保人，就如處理債務時有連帶保證人等規定，那麼科控中心對於被告施以電子監控的時候，是不是可以強制他提供緊急聯絡人？或者司法院法官在下裁定的時候可以要求被告指定一名緊急聯絡人，才不會因為被告一時聯繫不到，我們就不知道要找誰，可不可以做這個？研擬看看能不能加？我知道現在會非強制性地問被告要不要，那可不可以把這個當作強制規定？譬如法官在下裁定的時候就請他提交1位或2位緊急聯絡人？在法務部這邊也是，等於能夠為我們的電子監控再多一個作為啦！我們那天去看的狀況是電子監控設備──譬如手機等等，如果設備沒有損壞或不是沒電，那科控中心確實可以聯繫他，請他用視訊方式讓科控中心的人能夠了解他當時的狀況還有所在位置。但是如果是因為設備問題聯絡不上的話，那可不可以至少有一個緊急聯絡人或兩位緊急聯絡人？是不是能夠請司法院跟法務部研擬一下這個做法？這是禮拜一那天我看完之後的想法。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971219fb71eae7f4c348f9600c3f6b437ac21a30f584bceeba9992aeab3b46f231cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:02:03 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那個部長說我們已經跟白宮掛號成功了是那請問一下這個掛號大概掛到幾號是會很快去談判還是會等很久因為我們現在只有90天的時間這樣來說好了 就像是說其實在這個醫院裡面掛號我們是已經透過這個相關的管道我們已經預約好大概什麼時候可以開始談"},{"start":31.031,"end":50.133,"text":"這個還要看美方的一個進度還要看美方所以有可能會排很久以後因為90天我們一定比那個現在現場掛號的要快很多快很多大概是怎麼樣時間我們約90天其實75號以內75號以內是那所以是多久你一號要看幾天啊不要跟我在那邊耍嘴皮子好不好這是很嚴肅的議題耶"},{"start":51.354,"end":78.363,"text":"沒有那個這個看幾天90天之內對呀你75號你1號看兩天那100多天的啊不會不會所以你要對啦所以不要現在是第一個越快越好因為說實在你沒有給一個我們國內的廠商一個明確的答案他們現在還無所適從啊他要不要增加資本投資他到底要怎麼因應所以當然要越快越快越好但是我覺得我們在談判因為我知道次長那個部長有講說您是副總談判"},{"start":79.443,"end":95.052,"text":"在談判上我們都知道要give and take可是現在川普的態度其實蠻高傲的我看到媒體報導他說現在各國的領導人都搶著拍他馬屁英文叫kiss my ass"},{"start":96.223,"end":117.41,"text":"他是這樣子講的然後說各國領導人找他都是說拜託啦來跟我做交易啦我什麼都願意意思是說他先把我們的關稅提高到32%然後呢好像只要在這32%以內他把它降下來就是給你恩惠的可是實際上像現在的10%對我們的國家的產業也都是有影響的"},{"start":118.59,"end":133.257,"text":"所以我覺得在談判上面我覺得還是要堅持我們國家的利益度第一件事情是當然美方非常重視我們一些貿易障礙非關稅的貿易障礙例如說食安在他們的報告裡面就有提到"},{"start":133.937,"end":156.279,"text":"他們對於我們進口的配額啊 像簡易啊 或者是基因食品啊這些他們都覺得是非關稅的貿易障礙但這牽涉到我們國內的食安問題所以你們在談判上有沒有可能說因為他說大家都搶著去拍他馬屁啦所以你給我放寬你的食安那我們就好好好 因為我們什麼都願意 所以我們就放寬在談判上會這樣嘛"},{"start":158.82,"end":178.522,"text":"我們在談判上面當然一定要顧及我們的國家的利益但是我們也跟委員報告我們這跟美國的這個在關稅上面的一個互動其實不妨把它看成是我們的整個產業的結構的一個調整那麼過去必然回答我的問題就好針對我的問題回答就好我是說你在談判的時候"},{"start":179.362,"end":205.807,"text":"我們要堅持台灣的利益譬如說台灣人重視的食安一定要堅持一定會把我們的這個包括的這個消費者的利益放在跟美方的談判裡面的重要的位置裡面再來就是譬如說賴總統投書媒體他說要以零關稅為基礎可是實際上很多經濟學者都指出其實我們的法定關稅不算高大概200左右只有個別的產業的關稅比較高譬如說汽車或保健食品"},{"start":206.127,"end":233.852,"text":"所以零關稅對美國是沒有什麼吸引力關鍵還是要拿出其他的籌碼去跟他談判其中有一個我昨天看到郭智慧部長講我是嚇一跳因為白宮的經濟顧問召集人米倫是有提到五個方法說可以跟美國談判其中第五個是說直接捐錢給美國財政部你知道嗎那昨天郭智慧部長是講說這也沒有不可以"},{"start":235.1,"end":251.405,"text":"那有學者就提出來就講說沒事我們幹嘛捐錢給他又不是政災然後又不是說我們戰敗國然後沒事捐錢給美國的我不知道說那個副總談判代表您的看法是怎樣完全同意這個委員的這個提醒"},{"start":252.085,"end":270.129,"text":"那麼我們在談判上面當然堅持我方倆尋求雙方最大的利益交集那這是我們談判的一個策略那麼像對於美方這些東西不盡完全合理的地方也盡力的來溝通希望能夠達成雙方的這個共識那零關稅用零關稅方式談判你自己覺得有用嗎"},{"start":270.529,"end":295.729,"text":"我們是用零關稅為基礎但就好像剛才這個這個顏惠欣這個顏副總談判代表這邊來說的一樣包括非關稅壁壘這個還有包括我們的這個相關的這個稅其實第三個很重要的是有關於這個貿易赤字的這個部分那美方現在是用結果論的方式所以貿易赤字是我們要努力的一個方式那我再跟國務院報告說"},{"start":296.509,"end":320.097,"text":"這個東西不用看成是一個對我方的利益的一個損失它可以看成是一個我們的整個經濟體質調整的一個契機我是覺得你不用粉絲太平啦這個對台灣的經濟絕對是影響很大啦不可否認那零關稅部分特別要提醒一下因為我剛剛講零關稅美方不見得會有吸引力啦但它有沒有可能談部分產業零關稅"},{"start":322.028,"end":333.026,"text":"你們說農業部分兩邊零關稅那其實對我們農業產業就不是啦那這對我們農業產業就會有影響嘛這個東西當然是說我們還要提升我們自己的產業經驗去整理因為我"},{"start":334.219,"end":355.24,"text":"農業部那時候在那個學校推一個什麼斑斑喝鮮奶政策就是因應紐西蘭的牛奶鮮乳零關稅進來台灣為了保護弱農所以叫小朋友喝鮮奶但是因為那時候政策也沒有配套所以也無極而終這真的對於一下下無極而終其實你如果要因應農業零關稅後面政府要做的規劃跟配套非常多"},{"start":356.661,"end":376.992,"text":"所以我覺得那個談判方方面面不要像川普講的一樣好像大家都都是排隊等著要來拍他馬屁該怎樣怎樣我們該堅持的國人的利益還是要堅持住在談判過程中一定會兼顧國人的利益以及尋求雙方最大的利益交集感謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時2分）麻煩請外交部次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員你好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。部長說我們已經跟白宮掛號成功了？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，這個掛號大概掛到幾號、是會很快去談判還是會等很久？因為我們現在只有90天的時間。"],["陳次長明祺：這樣來說好了，就像是在醫院裡面掛號，我們已經透過相關的管道預約好，現在很多……"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候可以開始談？"],["陳次長明祺：這個還要看美方的進度，我們隨時……"],["葉委員元之：還要看美方，所以有可能會排很久以後？因為90天……"],["陳次長明祺：我們一定比現在現場掛號的要快很多。"],["葉委員元之：快很多，時間上大概是怎麼樣？因為90天其實……"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們是在75號以內。"],["葉委員元之：75號以內？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以是多久？你1號要看幾天啦，不要跟我在那邊耍嘴皮子好不好？這很嚴肅的議題耶！"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，這個要看幾天……90天之內一定會看。"],["葉委員元之：對啊，你排第75號，你1號看兩天，那就要一百多天了啊！"],["陳次長明祺：不會、不會。"],["葉委員元之：對啦！所以現在是第一個越快越好……"],["陳次長明祺：是，完全同意。"],["葉委員元之：因為說實在的你沒有給我們國內的廠商一個明確的答案，他們現在無所適從，他要不要增加資本投資？他到底要怎麼因應？所以當然要越快越好嘛。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是我覺得我們在談判，因為我知道部長有講說，您是副總談判代表嘛？"],["陳次長明祺：職位上面是。"],["葉委員元之：對喔？"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["葉委員元之：在談判上我們都知道要「give 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ass」，他是這樣講的，然後說各國領導人找他都是說「拜託啦！來跟我做交易，我什麼都願意」，意思是說他先把我們的關稅提高到32%，然後好像只要在這32%以內，他把關稅降下來就是給你恩惠了，可是實際上像現在的10%，對我們國家的產業也都是有影響的。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以，我覺得在談判上面還是要堅持我們國家的利益……"],["陳次長明祺：一定。"],["葉委員元之：第一件事情是，當然美方非常重視我們的一些貿易障礙，非關稅的貿易障礙，例如說食安。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：在他們的報告裡面就有提到，他們對於我們的進口配額、檢疫或者是基因食品這些，他們都覺得是非關稅的貿易障礙，但這個牽涉到我們國內的食安問題……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們在談判上有沒有可能說，因為他說大家都搶著去拍他馬屁，所以當他說你給我放寬你的食安，那我們就說好！好！好！好！好！因為我們什麼都願意，所以我們就放寬，在談判上會這樣嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：我們在談判上面當然一定要顧及我們國家的利益，但是也跟委員報告，我們跟美國在關稅上面的互動，其實不妨把它看成是我們整個產業結構的一個調整，那麼過去必然……"],["葉委員元之：回答我的問題就好，針對我的問題回答就好。我是說你在談判的時候……"],["陳次長明祺：一定會把……"],["葉委員元之：你們要堅持臺灣的利益，譬如說臺灣人重視的食安，你一定要堅持。"],["陳次長明祺：一定會把包括我們消費者的利益，放在跟美方談判當中的重要位置。"],["葉委員元之：好。再來就是譬如說賴總統投書媒體，他說要以零關稅為基礎，可是實際上很多經濟學者都指出，其實我們的法定關稅不算高，大概2%左右……"],["陳次長明祺：是，完全是。"],["葉委員元之：只有個別產業的關稅比較高，譬如說汽車或保健食品，所以零關稅對美國是沒有什麼吸引力啦，關鍵還是要拿出其他的籌碼去跟他談判。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：其中有一個，我昨天看到郭智輝部長講，我是嚇一跳啦，因為白宮的經濟顧問委員會召集人米倫有提到五個方法可以跟美國談判，其中第五個是說直接捐錢給美國財政部，你知道嗎？昨天郭智輝部長是說這也沒有不可以，有學者就提出來說：欸！沒事我們幹嘛要捐錢給他，又不是賑災，我們又不是戰敗國，哪有沒事捐錢給美國的？我不知道副總談判代表您的看法是怎樣？"],["陳次長明祺：我完全同意委員的這個提醒，我們在談判上面當然堅持我方立場，尋求雙方最大的利益交集，這是我們談判的一個策略，像對於美方這些不盡完全合理的地方，也會盡力的溝通，希望能夠達成雙方的共識。"],["葉委員元之：那用零關稅的方式談判，你自己覺得有用嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：我們是用零關稅為基礎，但就好像剛才顏慧欣副總談判代表說的一樣，包括非關稅壁壘，還有包括我們相關的稅，第三個很重要的是有關於貿易赤字的部分，美方現在是用結果論的方式，所以貿易赤字是我們要努力的一個地方。我再跟委員報告的是，這個東西不用看成是對我方利益的一個損失，可以將它看成是我們整個經濟體質調整的一個契機。"],["葉委員元之：我是覺得你不用粉飾太平，這個對臺灣的經濟絕對是影響很大啦。"],["陳次長明祺：不可否認。"],["葉委員元之：零關稅的部分特別要提醒一下，因為我剛剛講零關稅對美方不見得會有吸引力，但他有沒有可能談部分產業零關稅，比如說農業的部分兩邊零關稅，那其實對我們的農業產業就……"],["陳次長明祺：希望是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！那這個對我們的農業產業就會有影響嘛，對不對？之前農業部……"],["陳次長明祺：這個東西當然我們還要提升我們自己的產業的競爭力。"],["葉委員元之：農業部那時候在學校推一個「班班喝鮮奶」政策，就是因應紐西蘭的牛奶（鮮乳）零關稅進來臺灣，為了保護酪農，所以叫小朋友喝鮮奶，但是因為那時候政策也沒有配套，所以一下下就無疾而終，其實你如果要因應農業零關稅，後面政府要做的規劃跟配套非常多。"],["陳次長明祺：沒錯，所以……"],["葉委員元之：對，所以我覺得那個談判方方面面要考量，不要像川普講的一樣，好像大家都是排隊等著要來拍他馬屁……"],["陳次長明祺：沒有、沒有。"],["葉委員元之：愛怎樣就怎樣，我們該堅持的國人利益還是要堅持住了。好，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：一定、一定，在談判的過程中，一定會兼顧國人的利益，以及尋求雙方最大的利益交集，感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員上台質詢。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員上台質詢，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員上台質詢，王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請黃國昌委員，黃國昌委員，黃國昌委員不在。","請翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","那接下來就是林憶君委員，林憶君委員已提出書面的質詢，林憶君也不在，所以提出書面的質詢。","登記質詢之委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。委員提出書面質詢者，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160102","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160102","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971274de62fc0fe31ce6f11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba997676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:55:13 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請農業部的陳部長來 請陳部長委員好部長在近年來兩岸的關係缺乏了互信的基礎所以也影響到我們雙邊的經貿的關係大陸也多次禁止我們台灣農漁產品的出口所以我們政府也採取了"},{"start":32.882,"end":51.991,"text":"開拓多元外銷的市場像美國日本跟東南亞國家所以是希望能夠降低大陸的依賴所以美國在2022年也正式的成為我國最大的農產品的出口國但是4月2號你知道了川普宣布32%的這個對等關稅所以對我們農業產品是有非常大的影響那我們"},{"start":59.534,"end":72.068,"text":"看到川普也在昨天有宣布暫停32%先降為到10%除了中國以外的國家在有90天的時間那90天的時間我們農業部這邊的話是不是趕快有什麼積極的措施要來跟川普這邊有進一步的談判呢"},{"start":81.218,"end":101.704,"text":"我想跟委員說明分兩個面向就是說雖然說現在目前有90天的緩衝期就是32%降到基礎化的10%但是我們還是會跟持續跟產業做一個有效的溝通就是有不同的情境之下我們唯一的目標就是希望讓我們的產品持續能夠銷到美國去美國是一個非常重要的市場"},{"start":102.284,"end":121.881,"text":"不能因為關稅而放棄這是一個重要的但是高關稅我們農民的話整個我們的整個績效都會下降啊有一部分我們還會去轉移到其他的高端市場但是我要跟委員報告從關稅的競爭角度來講現在中國的關稅如果還是維持這樣子或應該會比台灣高的時候其實像"},{"start":122.841,"end":144.876,"text":"吳國瑜美國的市場中國佔的百分之將近70所以我們才佔百分之七而已所以在這個前提之下其實反而是一個我們的機會能夠去在那邊具有更大的潛力只要市場不萎縮所以這個部分我想我們用很多的所以關稅是最重要的市場才不會萎縮對就是關稅的"},{"start":147.702,"end":159.536,"text":"競賽的過程中中國現在目前是比較屬於劣勢的部分那這個機會我們如果加速我們的佈局在美國的佈局的話是能夠有效的爭取更多的市場我們也要把握這90天這個時間趕快做好準備重啟這個關稅的這個談判"},{"start":165.103,"end":193.968,"text":"那我剛有特別提到就是我們要開拓多元的市場那目前這種情況之下的話我們也要開拓那現在我們有準備往哪些國家來開拓嗎我想我們會根據目前的這些這些農漁產品本身的目標市場國去加大他的力量我舉個例子鱸魚其實我們鱸魚是以澳洲為最主要的一個市場那反而是美國相對的他的比例是比較低的大概只有1%而已那這種情況之下我們"},{"start":194.468,"end":221.422,"text":"哪些國家如魚像如魚的話是澳洲澳洲是最大的所以我們會加強澳洲的一個行銷讓更高端的所以現在這個澳洲那本身是要提醒啦因為如果說美國行不通之後還有歐盟的部分也有對美國如果行不通之後的話因為東南亞國家的農業產品跟我們同質性都很類似嘛同質性很高所以我們必須要開拓其他的多元一點市場好不好"},{"start":223.284,"end":230.39,"text":"那接下來就是想請教的那因為美國在那邊談判的話如果說我們部長這邊有做好準備應該知道美國有宣示一些政策那尤其是對於我們有一些食安問題部長應該就要了解了譬如我們的美牛 美豬"},{"start":241.7,"end":256.633,"text":"一些特殊高危險的這些部位的這個美麗美术還有一些基改的食品的話他這次會不會在談判內容裡面我們要以國人的食安為最重要這是我們的底線不能超過這底線是不是我想"},{"start":257.233,"end":275.065,"text":"以農業部主責的相關的這些農產的一些關稅的談判那其實重點是在這些農產品有哪些農產品在過去我們是有一些比較高一點關稅的一個保護那這個部分會不會往下降其實大家關心的是這個就產業來講"},{"start":276.266,"end":295.076,"text":"但是農業是一個非常特殊的產業它具有糧食安全的一個任務在那邊所以該標示的要標示不能把這個拿來就談判的籌碼那尤其是標示產地的問題或者是說像牛的內臟牛的脊椎還有豬的腎臟還有萊克多巴胺的成分跟標準都要符合"},{"start":296.243,"end":310.25,"text":"才能夠進來 不能因為為了把跟關稅降低而作為談判的籌碼不過你今天在講這個部分是衛務部主責一定要再堅持好不好衛務部主責 但是我們農業部本身是針對產業面我們會去做一個有效的支撐"},{"start":311.741,"end":327.325,"text":"所以我們在討論另外一個問題就是美國也有進口我們台灣的農產品那你有沒有去盤點說美國進口了哪些農產品它的關稅我們可以說稍微把它調降來釋出善意有利於你們的談判呢"},{"start":327.985,"end":354.017,"text":"我想其實我們對美國現在目前進來的最主要是飼料用的黃小玉黃小玉的部分現在關稅都是零了現在是關稅是零他們進來就是零了所以我想關稅的談判其實關稅的談判是一個手段但是最終的目的是要兩國的貿易都能夠雙贏而且有互補的效益我們會從這個角度來處理是 好 謝謝部長我現在先請經濟部的我們郭部長"},{"start":367.23,"end":382.164,"text":"經過聽外媒的報導白宮在施壓底下台積電已經與美國英特爾公司達成協議未來要合資成立公司那台積電也會成為晶片生產上技術換取20%的股份是不是"},{"start":385.558,"end":407.097,"text":"報告委員這個我們對這個傳言因為不是經過政府的這個投審會所以我現在投審會有沒有審這個不清楚這一個傳言不清楚那我也不評論這個傳言我知道部長就是說這個是假設性的議題不予回答那但是我們還是要再討論這個問題因為居然外面都已經報導了"},{"start":410.64,"end":432.107,"text":"那尤其是台積電跟英特爾這個作為是競爭的對象部長應該了解他們就是競爭的對象如果他們雙方合資之後會出現兩種狀況第一種狀況就是英特爾公司會全面的退出晶圓代工的專注在IC的設計上第二種狀況的話就會是台積電跟英特爾公司共同經營這個晶圓代工的這個業務"},{"start":434.81,"end":447.641,"text":"如果在第一種狀況我們認為台積電還是比較有利的那如果第二種狀況就不行了那部長有什麼看法我們不評論這樣的傳言就是假設性的議題你不評論了但是我們希望部長"},{"start":448.908,"end":477.68,"text":"在這種合作關係雖然說沒有被證實但是我們就要避免這個第二種情形的發生第二種情形發生的話就會影響到台積電跟英特爾公司他們合作但我們希望投審會未來對這個審查的情況的話要更加的嚴審不要讓這個關鍵技術外流好不好如果有委員所指教的這樣的情形我們會關鍵技術還要非常重視的不能外流好謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":669,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時55分）謝謝主席，請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，近年來兩岸關係缺乏互信基礎，所以也影響到我們雙邊的經貿關係，大陸也多次禁止我們臺灣農漁產品的出口，所以我們政府也採取開拓多元外銷市場的措施，像美國、日本跟東南亞國家，希望能夠降低對大陸的依賴，所以美國在2022年也正式成為我國最大農產品出口國，但是4月2號，你知道川普宣布32%的對等關稅，對我們農漁產品有非常大的影響。我們看到川普也在昨天宣布暫停32%，先降回到10%，除了中國以外的國家，再有90天的時間，90天的時間我們農業部是不是趕快有什麼積極的措施，跟川普進一步的談判？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，分兩個面向，雖然目前有90天的緩衝期，就是32%降到基礎關稅10%，但是我們還是會持續跟產業做有效的溝通。在不同的情境之下，我們唯一的目標就是希望讓我們的產品能夠持續銷到美國去，美國是一個非常重要的市場，我們不能因為關稅而放棄，這是一個重要的……"],["呂委員玉玲：但是高關稅，對我們農民而言，整個績效都會下降啊！"],["陳部長駿季：換句話說，有一部分我們還會轉移到其他高端市場。但是我要跟委員報告，從關稅的競爭角度來講，現在中國的關稅如果還是維持這樣子，應該會比臺灣高的時候，像吳郭魚，美國的市場，中國占了將近70%，我們才占7%而已，所以在這個前提之下，其實反而是我們的一個機會，能夠在那邊具有更大的潛力，只要市場不萎縮啦！所以這個部分，我想我們用很多的相關……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以關稅是最重要的，市場才不會萎縮？"],["陳部長駿季：對，關稅的競賽過程中中國目前比較處於劣勢的部分，這個機會我們如果加速我們在美國布局的話，能夠有效爭取更多的市場。"],["呂委員玉玲：當然，我們也要把握這90天的時間，趕快做好準備，重啟關稅談判。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛才有特別提到，我們要開拓多元的市場。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：目前這種情況之下的話，我們也要開拓，那現在我們有準備往哪些國家開拓嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會根據目前這些農漁產品本身的目標市場國加大力道，我舉個例子，鱸魚，其實我們鱸魚是以澳洲為最主要的一個市場，反而是美國，相對它的比例是比較低的，大概只有1%而已。這種情況之下，我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：哪些國家？"],["陳部長駿季：像鱸魚的話，澳洲是最大的，所以我們會加強澳洲的行銷，讓更高端的……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以現在就一個澳洲？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席是要提醒，如果美國行不通之後……"],["陳部長駿季：還有歐盟的部分也有。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，美國如果行不通之後，因為東南亞國家的農漁產品跟我們同質性都很類似……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：同質性很高，所以我們必須要開拓其他多元一點的市場，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來就是想請教，美國那邊的談判，如果我們部長有做好準備，應該知道美國有宣示一些政策，尤其是對於我們有一些食安問題，部長應該就要了解了。譬如我們的美牛、美豬，就是一些特殊高危險部位的美牛、美豬，還有一些基改食品，這次會不會在談判內容裡面？我們要以國人的食安為最重要的考量，這是我們的底線，不能超過這個底線，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我想以農業部主責的相關農產關稅談判，其實重點是在有哪些農產品在過去我們有一些比較高一點的關稅保護，這個部分會不會往下降？其實就產業來講，大家關心的是這個，但是農業是一個非常特殊的產業，它具有糧食安全的任務，所以農產品的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以該標示的要標示，不能把這個拿來做談判的籌碼。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其是標示產地的問題，像牛的內臟、脊椎、豬的腎臟，還有萊克多巴胺的成分跟標準，都要符合才能夠進來。不能為了把關稅降低而作為談判的籌碼，這事涉食安問題，一定要堅持好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：不過您剛才講的部分是衛福部主責的，農業部本身是針對產業面，我們會有效的支撐。"],["呂委員玉玲：另外一個問題是，美國也有進口臺灣的農產品，有沒有去盤點美國進口了哪些農產品？他的關稅我們可以稍微調降來釋出善意，有利於你們的談判嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：其實我們目前最主要的對美進口是飼料用的黃、小、玉，黃、小、玉現在關稅都是零了。"],["呂委員玉玲：是。"],["陳部長駿季：我想關稅談判其實是一個手段，最終的目的是要兩國貿易都能夠雙贏，而且有互補的效益，我們會從這個角度來處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝部長，現在請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，有外媒報導，在白宮施壓下，台積電已經與美國英特爾公司達成協議，未來要合資成立公司，台積電也會以晶片生產技術換取20%的股份，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個傳言因為不是經過政府的投審會……"],["呂委員玉玲：投審會有沒有審這個？"],["郭部長智輝：我不清楚這個傳言，我也不評論。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道部長會說這是假設性的議題不予回答，但我們還是要來討論這個問題。外媒既然都已經報導了，尤其是台積電跟英特爾，部長應該了解他們就是競爭的對象。如果他們雙方合資之後，會出現兩種狀況，第一、英特爾公司會全面退出晶圓代工，專注在IC設計上；第二、台積電跟英特爾公司共同經營晶圓代工業務。第一種狀況我們認為台積電還是比較有利的，第二種狀況就不行了，部長有什麼看法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不評論這樣的傳言。"],["呂委員玉玲：假設性的議題你不評論，這種合作關係雖然沒有被證實，但是我們要避免第二種情形發生。第二種情形一旦發生，就會影響台積電跟英特爾公司的合作。我們希望投審會未來對此情況要更加嚴審，不要讓這個關鍵技術外流好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，如果有委員指教的情形發生，我們會……"],["呂委員玉玲：關鍵技術要非常重視，不能外流，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們接下來請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝昭偉 有請院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":21.8,"end":46.121,"text":"好 院長好院長 國科會吳承文主委說過台灣經濟實力已經在世界20左右那可是幾十年的努力之下來連一個諾貝爾獎都沒有實在是很丟臉這是他說的那日本於1996年通過了科學技術基本法成立了科學技術委員會透過了保障科研的預算等方式那我們看到他們如此之重視"},{"start":46.781,"end":72.397,"text":"那提高了日本的科學技術水準2001年修訂通過第二版的科學技術基本法明確指出50年要拿下30個諾貝爾獎那目前呢日本已經有29位諾貝爾獎得主其中有一位是團體的那台灣呢台灣土生土長唯一目前拿過諾貝爾獎是1986年的李遠哲我們前院長那最靠近最靠近諾貝爾獎的是2022年翁啟惠前院長"},{"start":75.399,"end":89.953,"text":"那我想這兩位都來自中研院所以我想中研院讓我們有所期待那也希望在這樣的一個部分上院長你覺得提升一國的科研能力關鍵在於哪裡是政府的投資還不夠多嗎還需要更大量的預算嗎"},{"start":90.373,"end":111.326,"text":"需要有很好的土壤很好的環境這個科研環境的創造才能夠吸引人才才能讓人才在無憂無慮的環境之下發揮他的創造力那希望能夠大家能夠給予支持給予鼓勵那跟這個國際一起競爭那我們要看到的是研究人員實際的貢獻對社會對學術方面的貢獻而不是單靠他的"},{"start":117.03,"end":140.142,"text":"功成名就之後才說給他拍手因為他得諾貝爾獎我們在努力的過程當中我們要給予肯定給予支持給予鼓勵給予經費上的最大彈性當然給予支持上我們當然都希望能夠給予一些支持所以你的說法就是不要只是得獎那你也否認了就是吳承文主委所說的連一個諾貝爾獎得主都沒有實在很丟臉這樣的說法你不一定認同"},{"start":140.942,"end":169.515,"text":"但是我想跟他講是說我們當然很希望說台灣有很多拿到很多世界第一拿到很多諾貝爾獎我們拿到世界冠軍這個也冠軍那個當然我們相信中研院現在所有的研究一定是希望社會能夠有所進步來幫忙做一些相關的研究我們都能夠知道但我們也希望讓世界看到台灣那目前我們現在最重要的問題是說我們現在一路走來台灣有很多的措施很多的政策頂大計畫"},{"start":170.555,"end":177.472,"text":"高教生跟玉山計畫等等會不會跟這些計畫的資源去過度的分散你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":180.18,"end":208.032,"text":"這個很多問題最主要是我們在學研界每一個人的方向目標沒有定得很清楚這是最近一直在講的不可能在座任何人把目標定在得諾貝爾獎至少這個人文學者就不能拿所以我們要把目標定清楚我們為什麼要做研究為什麼這個研究重要能夠闡述得清楚爭取立法院的同意"},{"start":208.832,"end":235.1,"text":"支持立法院也應該考量學術研究的特殊狀況那把跟政治性的跟一般機關的預算做分開的審查我們要的不僅是更多的資源我們要的是資源的彈性運用我們必須知道說我們眾院確實是拿了很多的資源但是不能用不好用是因為它之間沒有辦法留用很多譬如說設備費不能留用"},{"start":240.225,"end":251.5,"text":"用人費不能留用等等的那加上最近有一些其他的限制這樣子我想跟你請教你剛剛有提到一些建議沒關係我都聽到如果能夠給予協助我們當然不讓我們都願意後續再有幫忙"},{"start":255.885,"end":273.548,"text":"但是學術上的一個建議呢是不是你也能夠給一些大家更多的一些建議我們看到日本有良好的科學科研環境那科學研究人員能在自己的計畫和支配研究工作也不會因為一段時間內沒有研究成果而影響評價但台灣好像跟日本不太一樣"},{"start":273.888,"end":296.731,"text":"是的我最近在大學校長會議給過一個演講我事後把演講的講稿提供給委員我們都希望能夠給科研人員有更多的一些彈性給予更多的空間這個平台能夠做好大環境做好是你剛剛第一句話沒錯對不對謝謝委員所以我們一起來努力我們提出了這樣子的問題我們看到了這樣的問題所以今天提出也會提出就代表要支持"},{"start":298.252,"end":326.407,"text":"會閒貨才會買貨嘛對不對好那中研院去年呢10月舉辦了一年一度的院區開放主題演說是未來世代的必修課能源與AI科技對吧還記得當時院長免利同學AI目前限制正式每一個人的一個機會希望未來世代勇於想像AI無法達成的事情將問題以及挑戰化為契機在去年7月中研院與AI辦公室要推動這一個"},{"start":327.427,"end":344.782,"text":"AI for OAS可不可以簡單介紹一下這是什麼這是我們希望在全院OASAS代表中央研究院的英文簡稱所以AI for OAS意思是說我們希望全院的人不論是你是研究人員你是研究助理或是你是行政人員大家都要"},{"start":345.482,"end":361.101,"text":"擁抱AI帶給我們的新契機大家都要適度的了解AI你或許沒辦法成為不應該期待你成為AI的專家但是你應該能夠用最新的AI技術來在你的研究上在你的行政上幫助你的日常業務"},{"start":362.402,"end":386.898,"text":"這樣子我講中研院也協力國科會推動深層式的AI相信院長也都知道去年獲得諾貝爾物理學獎的一個辛頓教授研究人工智慧領域他在2023年離開Google一直在致力於談論急於目前推出深層式人工智慧產品的一個危險請問我們所推動的深層式AI是否有辛頓教授所說的一個風險"},{"start":387.999,"end":402.175,"text":"因為當然這個AI當然免不了被誤用的話絕對是有風險所以我們一方面要極力開發另外一方面我們也要極力思考這它對人類文明對社會安定所造成的一個風險好 謝謝那院長"},{"start":403.416,"end":422.331,"text":"中研院是否可以針對生成式AI所進行可能性的一個問題研究盤整並且具體的建議到教育部目前的中小學數位教學指引的3.0以及校長數位學習的領導指引畢竟教育部"},{"start":422.611,"end":444.594,"text":"不是所謂的研究機構AI目前科技是日新月異我們也希望在這個前面第一線的研究單位你們最了解能夠在這個跨部會上給予合作給予協助給予建議這個部分可以嗎我們協助給予建議的這是可以我不確定說眾議院的專家有在您講這方面是有特別的研究"},{"start":446.016,"end":462.556,"text":"因為我想這個AI有相關的一些人工智慧的產品所帶來的一些風險那剛剛你說不免俗有可能那在這個研究上如果有找到一些問題對於教育部中小學的數位教學指引3.0給予一個建議我覺得這個部分應該是你們做得到的"},{"start":463.036,"end":487.912,"text":"因為你們畢竟是高位在看這件事情我想後面也有一些長官在點頭那應該是可以認同我們不是找麻煩只是希望能夠讓這個東西更好謝謝委員提醒再來我想院長我很關心勞動權益的一個議題所以在去年預算審查的時候特別提出來政治所的徵才違法希望中委員要注意那你有掌握到嗎請政治所所長"},{"start":490.031,"end":499.353,"text":"我先請問一下 院長回去有盤點所有的單位徵才資訊或工作相關的規定嗎有沒有發現其他問題有 這請人事回答"},{"start":500.857,"end":526.983,"text":"委員好 人事室主任周培芳是有發現問題嗎我們院裡面非常重視勞基法的相關規範也很重視勞動權益我先問一下兩位請問這一份中央研究院工讀生雇用管理規定PTT這裡分別掛在中研院的網站跟中研院的總務處網站上請問這一份還有沒有在使用應該掛著應該還有在使用吧"},{"start":534.134,"end":542.209,"text":"有沒有這個綜藝院還有在徵公讀生喔在人文社會科學聯合圖書館"},{"start":544.534,"end":568.708,"text":"我想應該是有在使用啦是的是的對吧好來我們來講一下工讀生的僱用契約書第三項工作時間的第三點甲方如應經費受限請求乙方延長工時服務時乙方同意以補休假來做方式的處理不令知己延長工時的酬金院長你覺得這句話有沒有問題有問題嗎"},{"start":574.69,"end":574.831,"text":"人事處"},{"start":578.772,"end":597.428,"text":"我們原則上可以跟就是工讀生要求補就是協商要補休但是補休如果沒有協商是有討論的空間沒有補休完的話還是會給加班費好但是在這一句上我覺得在用字顯示上我要先講院長這句話有問題因為加班費加班時加班費的請求權還沒有發生怎麼可以先要求要有拋棄"},{"start":606.375,"end":616.829,"text":"這一句話我覺得在實務上應該加完班後雇主才會去跟員工談能不能換補休這個既然委員提到務實上我們就談務實"},{"start":618.567,"end":642.899,"text":"每一個研究員都知道說自己手上經費有多少他加班費付不出來的時候就必須要能夠控制說有多少人升級加班我知道因為你們希望控制預算的使用並不會超支甚至付不出來但是我建議要修正因為討論的空間乾脆這一條就不要寫你們再去做導資這部分的協商回去研究一下看說這怎麼做比較好"},{"start":643.379,"end":661.666,"text":"第二如果工讀生僱用契約書要修正的話在第四項休假提及的性別工作平等法這部法律在2023年7月改為性別平等工作法建議一併修正沒事沒事不要說我們是雞蛋挑骨頭只是看到了這問題順帶提到"},{"start":664.127,"end":683.8,"text":"那再來在第六項職業災害及普通傷害的一個補助應該要加上2021年制定的勞工職業災害保險及保護法最後中研院整個中央研究院工讀生雇用管理規定這份檔案在中研院網站跟中研院的總務處網站上掛的內容不一樣"},{"start":684.801,"end":708.334,"text":"院長你看一下這兩份最後修正的日期都是中華民國102年7月26日總務置地1020505343號修正也提及本規定經院長核定後執行的修正時異同但是為什麼同一個修正日期的檔案在工作時間的規定上是有不一樣的寫法"},{"start":708.934,"end":728.742,"text":"中研院的官網入口乙方工作時間每日不超過8小時每兩週不超過84小時但是在中研院的總務處網站檔案乙方正常工作的時間每日不超過8小時每週不超過40小時我想這兩個說法寫法都不一樣"},{"start":730.651,"end":752.996,"text":"這兩個寫法都沒問題但是呢到底哪一個才是正確的檔案我不太懂工作時從雙週的84小時變成單週的40小時是民國105年才開始實施的而中研院這樣子的工作工讀生的雇用管理規定呢最新的修正是在民國102年我想自己偷改不用報院長核定"},{"start":755.657,"end":778.416,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒跟提示這部分我們會一併檢討讓他有一致所以我所找出的問題是事實吧對不對是我們會回來檢討是不是應該馬上更正是的我想剛剛還是回到了我們希望不管是未來的工途生科研的環境那整個勞動的一個產業甚至這個環境都能夠有所提升我想這些細節今天沒有責難"},{"start":780.237,"end":789.051,"text":"我們都是希望讓整個環境更好只是提出到我所看到的一個問題在研究的過程發現的這些問題希望你們修正院長可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":786,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時51分）謝謝召委，有請院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長好。院長，國科會吳誠文主委說過，臺灣經濟實力已經在世界20名左右，可是幾十年的努力下來，連一個諾貝爾獎都沒有，實在是很丟臉。這是他說的。日本於1996年通過了科學技術基本法，成立了科學技術委員會，透過了保障科研的預算等方式，我們看到他們如此之重視，提高了日本的科學技術水準。2001年修訂通過第二版的科學技術基本法，明確指出50年要拿下30個諾貝爾獎，目前日本已經有29位諾貝爾獎得主，其中有一位是團體，那臺灣呢？臺灣土生土長的人，目前唯一拿過諾貝爾獎的是1986年的李遠哲，也是中研院前院長，最靠近諾貝爾獎的是2022年的翁啟惠前院長，這兩位都來自中研院，所以我想中研院讓我們有所期待，在這樣的部分，院長，你覺得提升一國的科研能力關鍵在於哪裡？是政府的投資還不夠多嗎？還需要更大量的預算嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：需要有很好的土壤，很好的環境，這個科研環境的創造才能夠吸引人才，才能讓人才在無憂無慮的環境之下，發揮他的創造力。希望大家能夠給予支持，給予鼓勵，跟國際一起競爭，我們要看到的是研究人員實際的貢獻，對社會、對學術方面的貢獻，而不是單靠他功成名就之後才說給他拍手，因為他得諾貝爾獎。在努力的過程當中，我們要給予肯定，給予支持與鼓勵，給予經費上的最大彈性。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，在給予支持上，我們當然都希望能夠給予一些支持，所以你的說法就是不要只是得獎，你也否認了吳誠文主委所說的，連一個諾貝爾獎得主都沒有，實在很丟臉，這樣的說法你不一定認同，但是，我想他的意思是說……"],["廖院長俊智：我想他不是這個意思，我們當然很希望臺灣拿到很多世界第一，拿到很多諾貝爾獎，拿到世界冠軍，這個也冠軍，那個也冠軍，我們都很希望……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我們相信，中研院現在所有的研究，一定是希望社會能夠有所進步，來幫忙做一些相關的研究，我們都能夠知道。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我們也希望讓世界看到臺灣，目前我們最重要的問題是說，我們一路走來，臺灣有很多的措施、很多的政策，包含頂大計畫、高教深耕、玉山計畫等等，這些計畫的資源會不會過度分散？你覺得有可能嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這個部分有很多問題，最主要是在學研界，每一個人的方向、目標沒有訂得很清楚，這是我最近一直在講的，不可能任何人都把目標訂在得諾貝爾獎，至少人文學者就不能拿了，所以我們要把目標訂清楚，把我們為什麼要做研究、為什麼這個研究重要，闡述得清楚，爭取立法院的同意支持，立法院也應該考量學術研究的特殊狀況，把跟政治性的、跟一般機關的預算，做分開的審查。我們要的不僅是更多的資源，我們要的是資源的彈性運用，我們必須知道，我們中研院確實拿了很多資源，但是不能用，不好用，是因為預算之間很多沒有辦法流用，譬如說，設備費不能流用、用人費不能流用等等，加上最近也有一些其他的限制。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想跟你請教，你剛剛有提到一些建議，沒關係，我都聽到了，如果能夠給予協助，我們當仁不讓，我們願意後續再來幫忙。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝、謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是在學術上的建議，你是不是能夠給大家更多建議？我們看到日本有良好的科研環境，科學研究人員能在自己的計畫來支配研究工作，也不會因為一段時間內沒有研究成果而影響評價。"],["廖院長俊智：是的、是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是臺灣好像跟日本不太一樣。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。我最近在大學校長會議發表演講，會後我把演講的講稿提供給委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們都希望能夠給科研人員更多的彈性，給予更多的空間，這個平台能夠做好，大環境做好事，是你剛剛第一句話嘛，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：沒錯，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們一起來努力嘛。我們提出了這樣子的問題，我們看到了這樣的問題，所以今天提出，會提出就代表要支持嘛。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：會嫌貨才會買貨嘛，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。中研院去年10月舉辦了一年一度的院區開放，主題演說題目是「未來世代的必修課：能源與AI科技」，對吧？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還記得當時院長勉勵同學說，AI目前的限制正是每一個人的一個機會，希望未來世代勇於想像AI無法達成的事情，將問題及挑戰化為契機。在去年7月，中研院與AI辦公室要推動「AI for All AS」，可不可以簡單介紹一下這是什麼？"],["廖院長俊智：AS是中央研究院的英文簡稱，這個意思是說，我們希望全院的人，不論是研究人員、是研究助理或是行政人員，大家都要擁抱AI帶給我們的新契機，大家都要適度地瞭解AI。你或許沒有辦法成為AI專家，也不應該期待你成為AI的專家，但是你應該能夠用最新的AI技術，來在你的研究上，在你的行政上，幫助你的日常業務。"],["羅委員廷瑋：中研院也協力國科會推動生成式的AI，就是TAIDE，相信院長也都知道，去年獲得諾貝爾物理學獎的辛頓教授，研究人工智慧領域，他在2023年離開Google，一直在致力於談論急於推出生成式AI，即人工智慧產品的危險，請問：我們所推動的生成式AI是否有辛頓教授所說的風險？你們有研究過嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：AI當然免不了，被誤用的話，絕對是有風險，所以我們一方面要極力開發，另一方面，我們也要極力思考它對人類文明、對社會安定所造成的風險。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。院長，中研院是否可以針對生成式AI所進行可能性的問題研究盤整，並且具體地建議放到教育部目前的中小學數位教學指引3.0及校長數位學習領導指引？畢竟教育部不是研究機構，目前科技日新月異，身為第一線的研究單位，你們最瞭解，在這個部分，你們能夠跨部會給予合作、給予協助、給予建議，可以嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我們協助並給予建議，這是可以的。我不確定中研院的專家在您講的這方面是否有特別的研究……"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為我想AI有相關的一些人工智慧產品所帶來的風險，剛剛你說免不了，有可能。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那在這個研究上，如果有找到一些問題，對於教育部中小學的數位教學指引3.0給予一個建議，我覺得這個部分應該是你們做得到的，因為你們畢竟是在高位看這件事情。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：後面也有一些長官在點頭，那應該是可以認同，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們不是找麻煩，只是希望能夠讓這個東西更好。"],["廖院長俊智：是，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，院長，我很關心勞動權益的議題，所以在去年預算審查的時候，特別提出政治所的徵才違法，希望中研院注意，你有掌握到嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：請政治所所長來說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我先請問一下院長，回去有盤點所有的單位徵才資訊或工作相關的規定嗎？有沒有發現其他的問題？"],["廖院長俊智：有，這個請人事回答。"],["周主任佩芳：委員好，我是人事室主任周佩芳。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，有發現問題嗎？"],["周主任佩芳：我們院裡面非常重視勞基法的相關規範，也很重視勞動權益。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我先問一下兩位，請問這一份中央研究院工讀生僱用管理規定，如PPT這裡所示，分別掛在中研院網站跟中研院總務處網站上，請問這一份還有沒有在使用？掛著應該還有在使用吧？有沒有？中研院還有在徵工讀生喔！在人文社會科學聯合圖書館，我想應該是有在使用，對吧？"],["張處長剛維：是的、是的！有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們來講一下，工讀生僱用契約書第三項工作時間中的第三點：「甲方如因經費受限，於請求乙方延長工時服務時，乙方同意以補休假方式處理，不另支給延長工時之酬金。」院長，你覺得這句話有沒有問題？有問題嗎？人事處？"],["周主任佩芳：我們原則上可以跟工讀生協商要補休，但是補休如果沒有……"],["羅委員廷瑋：協商是有討論的空間，但是在……"],["周主任佩芳：對！沒有補休完的話，還是會給加班費。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，但是我覺得在這一句的用字遣詞上，院長，我要先講，這句話有問題，因為加班時加班費的請求權還沒有發生，怎麼可以先要求要拋棄？我覺得在實務上這一句話應該加完班後，雇主才會去跟員工談能不能換補休。"],["廖院長俊智：既然委員提到實務面，我們就談實務，每一個研究員都知道自己手上經費有多少，當加班費付不出來的時候，就必須要能夠控制有多少人現在請加班，這也是務實……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，因為你們希望控制預算的使用並不會超支，甚至付不出來，但是我建議要修正。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。好，我們回去看一下……"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為這有討論的空間嘛！那乾脆這一條就不要寫，你們再去做勞資部分的協商。"],["廖院長俊智：我們回去研究一下，看怎麼做比較好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：第二，如果工讀生僱用契約書要修正的話，在第四項休假及提及的性別工作平等法，這部法律在2023年7月改為性別平等工作法，建議一併修正。沒事、沒事，不要說我們是雞蛋挑骨頭啦！只是看到了這個問題，順帶提到的。"],["廖院長俊智：OK，好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，在第六項職業災害及普通傷病補助，應該要加上2021年制定的勞工職業災害保險及保護法。最後，整個中央研究院工讀生僱用管理規定這份檔案，在中研院網站跟中研院總務處網站上掛的內容不一樣，院長看一下，這兩份最後修正日期都是中華民國102年7月26日總務字第1020505343號修正，也提及本規定經院長核定後執行，修正時亦同。但是為什麼同一個修正日期的檔案，在工作時間的規定上有不一樣的寫法，中研院官網入口是乙方工作時間每日不超過8小時，每兩週不超過84小時，但是在中研院總務處網站檔案中，乙方正常工作時間每日不超過8小時，每週不超過40小時，我想這兩個說法、寫法都不一樣，這兩個寫法都沒問題，但是到底哪一個才是正確的檔案，我不太懂。工作時間從雙週的84小時變成單週的40小時，是民國105年才開始實施的，而中研院工讀生僱用管理規定最新的修正是在民國102年，是自己偷改，不用報院長核定？"],["張處長剛維：謝謝委員的提醒跟提示，這部分我們會一併檢討讓它有一致性，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我所找出的問題是事實嘛，對不對？"],["張處長剛維：是，非常謝謝，我們會回來檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是不是應該馬上更正？"],["張處長剛維：是的，我們會檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還是回到剛剛說的，我們希望不管是未來的工讀生、科研環境、整個勞動產業，甚至這個環境都能夠有所提升，我想這些細節今天沒有責難，我們都是希望讓整個環境更好，只是提出我所看到的問題，在研究過程發現的這些問題，希望你們修正，院長可以嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：院長請回，謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","再來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請林德福，林德福、林德福委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","今天登記質詢均已發言完畢，關於今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢及相關資料，列入紀錄並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復的部分，也請相關機關儘速以書面答復。","報告委員會，今天議程處理完畢，現在散會，謝謝各位。","散會（12時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160100","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160100","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712d140ce536905e5ecf9600c3f6b437ac21a30f584bceeba995072d6cea2f53abe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:55:07 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謝謝主席那我們邀請經濟部的江政務次長還有行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表嚴副總代表"},{"start":20.119,"end":32.171,"text":"賴總統在這兩天有在彭博新聞社發表一篇文章台灣已有深化對美貿易關係的路徑圖希望透過對話努力排除台美的貿易障礙"},{"start":34.292,"end":58.039,"text":"將關稅劃減為零那不曉得兩位有沒有看過總統的這篇文章都有看過嘛那裡面有提到就是說希望把關稅這個劃減為零他說這個台灣目前的這個對美國的這個平均關稅是百分之六希望在這個互惠的基礎上面進一步降至零那藉由排除自由公平貿易的最後的障礙希望促進雙邊的這個擴大貿易與投資的規模"},{"start":62.324,"end":70.562,"text":"總統這樣子講那是不是說我們本來有一個台美21世紀的貿易倡議那要直接跨一大步了就要到這一個FTA的自由貿易協定了"},{"start":72.705,"end":89.829,"text":"好謝謝委員那我想那個因為台美貿易倡議他基本上在解決的是法規的之間的連結的問題那我們現在透過因為法規連結他可能形成的障礙實際上也是川普政府現在對等關稅的衡量基礎所以我們會利用台美倡議所達成的這些共識來作為我們去化解我們對等關稅的稅率的這個的基礎"},{"start":95.47,"end":117.537,"text":"但是這是去年通過的第一階段那是還沒有關稅啊那現在有關稅了那要做的一定是不一樣嘛那我的意思是說總統竟然有這樣子講那是不是有什麼新的策略要出來因為他直接有講希望能夠關稅能夠化解到最後到零啊那是一大步耶那化解到零那所以我才問說那是不是就是要這個跟自由貿易協定是有相關的"},{"start":118.649,"end":127.692,"text":"我想自由貿易協定可以是有包含降關稅也可以包含只有純粹法規連結那現在因為賴總統所指示的就是希望從我們現在台美之間各自台灣輸美的這個有76%美國輸台有62%是零關稅我們就是以這個基礎往上去談看哪一些產品可以逐步去納入我們可以"},{"start":140.477,"end":158.005,"text":"調降關稅的一個範圍那目的就是還是要去降低我們的對等關稅現在適用的一些品項那所以我想如何從台美21世紀倡議跨越到是不是可以走向台美FTA我想這個是我們要努力的方向因為總統有這樣子說嘛那所以我是說那"},{"start":159.005,"end":170.673,"text":"因為這個又是在川普宣布對等關稅之後雖然現在是從32%降成10%但是總統他有這個說法那是不是說我們跟美國在談判的時候"},{"start":171.747,"end":197.864,"text":"有什麼樣新的 比如說新的措施或是說進一步的想要達成什麼樣的協議來讓總統他所提到的說希望能夠把關稅降到零那這也是能夠降低就是說這個美方認為說我們關稅好像課得太高 其實其實沒有啦他是用這個貿易的逆差來做的那我所以再請教這個副總代表那如何落實總統所提到的說這個排除自由貿易的這個最後的障礙"},{"start":200.024,"end":217.83,"text":"我想排除貿易障礙呢基本上我們也要從美國現在的需求來討論那美國的需求他已經很明確說了要去跟他談對等關稅的下降不外乎要從三個目標第一個目標就是現在的關稅如果過高的我們要去評估如何下降第二個就是他們長期點名出來的在他們的"},{"start":220.191,"end":245.387,"text":"NTE就是他們的這個非關稅貿易障礙報告裡面長期關鍵的議題那我們要加以處理以及第三個即便你有前面的關稅跟非關稅措施但是他必須要能夠反映在降低貿易逆差上這三個目標都是缺一不可所以我想我們就是取得賴總統的授權從零關稅的基礎開始談但是必須要能夠達成美方所期待的三個目標"},{"start":246.007,"end":263.758,"text":"那所以也是這一次我們打算去跟美國談的最主要的這個三個目標嗎這次會是我們努力的方向好那我再問一下這一個江次長好了那現在就是說要消除這一個剛有提到這個對美的這一個非關稅的貿易障礙那這部分的話經濟部要做什麼樣的處理"},{"start":264.844,"end":292.211,"text":"在經濟部的部分的話大概非關稅貿易障礙目前美方比較關心的是我們的智慧財產權的落實的情形所以我們已經積極的在做相關的檢討就只有這部分而已嗎涉及經濟部的部分那財政部的部分咧據我們了解目前USTR提出來對財政部的項目是屬於明久的課稅的問題"},{"start":294.176,"end":303.578,"text":"這只有米酒客稅的問題嗎?沒有其他的問題嗎?當然我們違規轉運也是美方非常關切的部分那它不是還有點名一些產業嗎?產業的部分這不是在經濟部,是在農業部嗎?我簡單補充一下,當然它還有提到的像跟這些我記得它有提到七項嘛"},{"start":318.564,"end":328.368,"text":"至少提到七項嘛對還有提到服務業還有提到外人投資的限制然後當然還有提到農業的一些我們長期的這些關稅配合的議題那這邊要怎麼做處理勒"},{"start":331.181,"end":353.635,"text":"我想我們現在就是由這個鄭麗君副院長所領軍的這個團隊那台美經貿工作小組一直在盤點這些議題然後當然我覺得最重要的是我們會尋求是兼顧國人的健康糧食安全這些目的之下那當然有一些非關稅貿易障礙議題他可能會涉及到國內法是否要修法這個也需要我們取得朝野的共識"},{"start":354.335,"end":366.542,"text":"所以我想我們必須要綜合的去通盤的檢討才能夠確定台灣在非關稅議題上面可以跟美方提出怎麼樣的一個解決方式好那我們現在這個談判的代表團何時要去美國"},{"start":368.272,"end":383.904,"text":"我想我們現在就是持續的在溝通那要確認美方他現在希望我們因為他的談判團隊我們也要確認成績那才可以來決定我們台灣怎麼樣的一個談判的一個組成因為現在有90天的這一個緩衝時間嘛那所以說等美國那邊確定之後我方就會過去就對了對 我們現在持續的這個在規劃當中好 謝謝 謝謝三位 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那院方跟檢方中間到底發生了什麼事啊你說 類似裁定其實啊 以招委定的題目來看的話我也不知道什麼叫什麼依據啊這個名詞其實我也沒有聽過啦 那但是呢萬文生義啊 應該是講比較簡單的一個裁定啊應該是比較簡略的一個裁定啊 你說"},{"start":62.898,"end":91.94,"text":"今天我聽了這麼多委員還有你們的答詢我有很大的一個感慨我們在三權分立底下就是說我們司法享有這麼高的一個超然還有優越甚至於一般稱的司法高權那反映在我們實務上裡面我就感受到司法體系從這個案子來看的話如果為這個案子來下一個定義的話叫司法體系封閉然後精英壟斷然後不透明"},{"start":93.05,"end":116.07,"text":"這會造成什麼樣的一個效果呢就是說你給你這麼崇高的司法威信但是人民的信任那你怎麼樣去畫上等號幾位都是法律人坐在這邊剩下幾乎都是法律人那我一個最大的一個感觸就是說你這個整個案子這個案子 鄭文智這個案子裡面讓人覺得非常詭異的一個地方就是說啊你在"},{"start":119.295,"end":138.848,"text":"高等法院的法官在113年11月14號做出這樣一個裁定那我看到你這個整個114年3月28號好像這個案這個裁定才送出來那個副秘書長可不可以解釋一下這個到底是什麼意思這段期間到底發生了什麼事"},{"start":140.223,"end":169.509,"text":"發生了什麼事然後次長你應該也要跟社會對話你們到底是什麼時候收到還是你們全部都沒有收到本席的問題就很簡單法官也是人憲法保障你這個終身的一個保障司法的一個獨立問你們問題你們講說這個都是個案好像講的個案都不能問哪有這種事要看個案是怎麼樣的一個個案這個哪叫個案"},{"start":170.629,"end":186.065,"text":"法官也是人欸今天是因為說這個我們三權分立底下大家認為說我們把司法就交給你法官你來代表國家你不能亂判欸你亂判還是枉法裁判也不行欸所以這個案子我很大的一個感慨就是說"},{"start":186.846,"end":201.639,"text":"我不跟你爭執什麼劣勢裁定你下了一個判決裡面一個裁判就是你不是用判決不然你就是用裁定你裁定的方式你口頭上也可以你說我在審理單裡面我來註記也可以或者說我用書面正式的書面來製作也可以問題來了你做出來以後"},{"start":210.453,"end":231.179,"text":"這是我法官的意識 不 這不是法官的意識這代表國家的意識一個人到底要不要關 一個人要交保多少一個人到底要不要用科技監控 這都不是法官的意識你代表司法 你代表國家在執法好啦 執法完以後你不是你說了算啊你說了算以後你要讓人家表達有沒有其他的意見啊那總要讓檢察官知道吧檢察官到底知不知道複密 到底有沒有通知檢察官"},{"start":237.489,"end":257.279,"text":"那個 謝謝委員那個指證齁 就是很遺憾的 這個案件確實他真的就是以一個違反程序規定啊不是不是 我不想知道有沒有違反程序規定 那當然違反程序規定是說檢察官知不知道 那檢察官知道以後 兩件事情嘛 第一個就是宋達嘛 我法官"},{"start":257.719,"end":274.393,"text":"我代表國家表達這個意思表示完以後我要讓外界周知那至少呢我就跟你說好你這個當事人你這個被告你現在這個科技監控不必了那你這個加保2000萬那可以你代表國家做出這樣的一個裁定可以可是呢"},{"start":274.753,"end":294.104,"text":"你明明知道說做出來以後檢察官可以看告的啊那檢察官看告以後那你總是法官這個小學生也知道你法官的素養你也知道那資深法官呢你總要讓檢察官知道說他是可以看告的你總要通知吧是用打電話的方式還是書面送達的方式我 早上我都沒聽到咧跟我答案那個 次長你知道嗎"},{"start":300.165,"end":325.983,"text":"各位報告那目前台高檢察署檢查這個調查的確診兩個事實第一個第一個是10月9號檢察官的確有在延長科控的這個開庭的時候有確定的表達要要求要具體的延長監控這第一點第二點是到目前為止檢察官沒有收到任何有關延長監控的裁定或者是宣示這兩點是確定的阿咱咱別說命啊不命"},{"start":326.755,"end":331.918,"text":"你會不知道這個案子就是違法嗎就是因為他是那個違私的違反那個訴訟法規定的也因此呢就是高院的自律委員會啟動那個自律那也決定把他們送那個法庭"},{"start":346.229,"end":372.375,"text":"這個有點開玩笑 這個社會喔 社會實在是你說要建立好不容易這個司法的威信你們說你們很努力 法官依法來審判然後呢 我是很權威的 全部都不能給我干涉個案是啊 社會上誰敢跟你們干涉個案現在台灣已經走到這個以現在台灣 現在大家對司法的一個要求可是你們有這個威信可是做出這樣子 你不覺得荒腔走板嗎"},{"start":374.164,"end":394.611,"text":"郭文貴市長你不是覺得這很奇怪嗎這個如果要惡意去評價的話就兩種狀況啊一種狀況 你是臨床工作的喔 忘記了喔專業都忘記了的啊第二你就是要偷偷放人嘛 就這麼簡單嘛你叫我解讀 我完全想不出往正面去解讀耶市長不是嗎我這樣解讀有錯嗎還是我腦袋"},{"start":403.249,"end":426.697,"text":"錯亂 我跟人 我的腦袋瓜不正常張偉我這樣想很合理吧你也做過檢查關的咧是不是這樣說所以我都覺得這個案子喔非常非常的一個荒唐啦所以這到底隱藏了些什麼 不知道但是我要求啦這個案子要好好去做徹查啦複密 合理吧總要回應社會的一個期待啊可以嗎"},{"start":430.936,"end":441.404,"text":"行政調查的部分司法院一直在進行至於說有沒有涉及到其他的更高的犯罪更高的圍屍這個部分檢方也已經有啟動"},{"start":444.932,"end":458.951,"text":"官官相護 我會跟你這樣講 我會覺得這樣不好外界會做這樣的一個解讀真的不好啦 真的不好另外我要來就教的就是說我們今天談到的就是科技監控這個部分 我反而會覺得"},{"start":459.952,"end":475.09,"text":"我反而會覺得這個部分啊涉及到整個專業訓練的一個問題啦你當然科技監控來看的話我們整個訴訟程序裡面你說在進行當中你要去保全這個被告保全這個證據我們又怕過度去侵害到"},{"start":475.51,"end":497.755,"text":"人生他自己的一個自由所以好像是又把他給降低了 又有科技監控另外呢 受刑人的部分你認為說要讓他復歸社會未必要讓他出來以後又怕這個整個社會的一個安全網所以再加這個科技的一個監控可是呢 我反而會覺得對法官 對檢察官來講的話"},{"start":500.329,"end":527.524,"text":"這個部分反而不是他們的在行不是他們的在行怎麼樣實務再去加強教育的訓練科技執法這個過程裡面保障他的一個對被告的一個保全或在過程裡面不要有任何損失這個部分我認為司法院也好或者說我們法務部也好這個部分應該專業的部分應該是教育訓練應該再去加強好不好那我想最後一個問題我要再來請教的就是說"},{"start":528.644,"end":543.905,"text":"國安的部分我有一個很大的感慨最近我們看到這幾個月共諜案幾乎成月經文每個月都在爆發年年這樣在曝光從現役的軍官"},{"start":545.066,"end":562.185,"text":"退役的上校一路到民間的協作者幾乎各行各業幾乎都淪陷了這些共諜案它其實不是捕風捉影這查出來了也起訴了也送到法院但是問題是說查得多判得清社會也未必看得下去"},{"start":563.464,"end":588.353,"text":"我就拿那個退役上校簽署那個投降承諾書那件來看法院最後判了七年六個月看起來是合理我覺得七年六個月大家也不會覺得輕跟重大家覺得法院判了嘛也不會太輕嘛可是呢你再去看看司法院跟法務部你們知道民間討論的是什麼嗎他們在討論的是說一個軍人偷一台這個洗衣機破十幾噸啊簽投降書的破七噸"},{"start":592.355,"end":615.828,"text":"方向到底有沒有搞錯很難去評價因為法官獨立每一個人對案情的一個掌握判斷會有所不同但是呢這個社會不是反對依法審判但是人民看到的是說法院可不可以對得起這個國家的一個風險量刑的準則我們講了很久了講了很久了你很難去我們要求說法官獨立審判"},{"start":618.209,"end":640.431,"text":"然後呢又給他指指點點可是呢我們2021年我們就講說要設立一個量刑準則委員會也送出了刑事案件妥適量刑的一個草案現在2025年了啦2025年了啦 也沒看到啦到底什麼時候準備要上路我看遙遙無期啦我們司法院這個地方有沒有什麼打算沒有"},{"start":641.567,"end":670.967,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是您剛說的這個草案確實現在就是就是還在那個立法院那另外呢就是司法院自己本身這一端可以那個努力那個測定的就是我們在先前的時候已經有完成一個焦點團體建議那個法院就是辦理這個國安的那個安全國安那個事件的時候的量刑的一些那個準則那我們最近呢有打算就是在那個開會因為就是那個新進"},{"start":673.228,"end":675.829,"text":"因為在那個基礎設施那個部分我最主要就是說案件的審理依法審判我們都可以懂但問題就是說我們很怕案件到最後相關類似的國安案件到最後都是法官自己看著辦"},{"start":700.359,"end":727.82,"text":"自己愛怎麼判就怎麼判我們最糟糕的就是最怕的就是這個雖然檢察官對於整個法院的審判他可以依法來提起上訴可是常常會看到很多案件跟社會上落差太大了你像比如說我們並不是要求關案件一個人全部都要去涉案的人全部都要關一輩子但是呢如果有些案件你去看收了敵國或者收了我們一般講的都是講中國收了"},{"start":729.639,"end":749.908,"text":"中國那邊的錢 然後我們也去洩密然後也簽署了投降文件你說這個不叫危害國安 什麼叫危害國安那甚至於過去還有去判緩刑的國安案件如果說證據明確 那還可以去判緩刑還有犯貨態度良好的 也有去講說一時失慮"},{"start":754.81,"end":774.955,"text":"然後誤觸法典 然後用這樣的一個方式來判緩刑啊這個啊 我都會覺得莫名其妙啦我建議啊 我這樣要求好了 不只建議我們司法院 或者法務部這個地方啊可不可以整理一下這幾年類似緩刑的一個案例 國安案件的來送交我們本委員會好不好"},{"start":776.306,"end":800.779,"text":"是 可以齁 合理嘛 我們再來好好的去檢視一下我們現在法院裡面 現在有沒有國安法庭有 有國安法庭了 有專庭有這個專庭了 那就案件分到誰的手上就看運氣了就變這樣子了 法官有的判重 有的判輕那對於這個部分 國安我倒覺得說"},{"start":801.892,"end":817.765,"text":"真的是不能是空話量刑也不能去失衡那量刑的標準不依的話我們很怕很怕到最後你說蔣淵去抓了那麼多那判下來"},{"start":818.726,"end":838.315,"text":"那跟人民的一個對於法律的一個確信或者是期待相差那麼大你說國安法的案件你最多判到12年公安罪可以判到死刑那你情報人員協助人員協助洩密的限制的沒有加重然後退伍的還要加重像這些邏輯都錯亂"},{"start":842.25,"end":867.891,"text":"我今天最語重心長要講就是說其實請司法院真的要正視這樣的一個問題國安的問題不能變成司法的一個盲區所以我要求我們司法院可以再針對於這三年就好了這三年國安案件判緩刑的這些摘要跟理由我們稍微做一個分析我們再來看看"},{"start":868.812,"end":896.861,"text":"好好的去做一個檢視才不會讓社會會覺得說這個法院的一個判決裡面是不是法官的一個恣意我這不是要干預判決我是要問我們司法體系裡面到底有沒有辦法扛得住整個國家的一個安全因為制度賦予法官獨立審判制度賦予法官享有這麼多的一個保障"},{"start":898.234,"end":898.254,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":795,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時44分），謝謝主席，請司法院副秘書長及法務部次長。"],["主席：請副秘書長、次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["黃次長謀信：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：兩位好。今天召委定這個題目，前半段我看起來有一點文不對題，其實有一點畫錯重點，但是我今天非常清楚，召委的意思就是在講略式裁定，重點是整個案件在做出裁定以後，院方跟檢方中間到底發生了什麼事。略式裁定其實以召委定的題目來看，我也不知道是什麼依據，這個名詞其實我也沒有聽過，但是望文生義，應該是比較簡單、比較簡略的裁定。","今天我聽了這麼多委員以及你們的答詢，我有很大的感慨，我們在三權分立底下，司法享有這麼高的一個超然及優越，甚至於一般稱的司法高權，反映在我們實務上，我就感受到司法體系，從這個案子來看的話，如果為這個案子來下一個定義，叫司法體系封閉、精英壟斷、不透明，這會造成什麼樣的效果？就是給你這麼崇高的司法威信，但對是人民的信任，要怎麼樣去畫上等號？在座幾位都是法律人，坐在這邊剩下的幾乎都是法律人，我一個最大的感觸，鍾文智這個案子讓人覺得非常詭異的一個地方，高等法院的法官在113年11月14日做出這樣的裁定，我看到114年3月28日好像這個裁定才送出來，副秘書長可不可以解釋一下，這到底是什麼意思？這段期間到底發生了什麼事？再者，次長也應該要跟社會對話，你們到底是什麼時候收到？還是你們全部都沒有收到？本席的問題很簡單，法官也是人，憲法給予終身的保障、司法的獨立，問你們問題，你們卻講這都是個案，好像只要講了是個案就都不能問。哪有這種事？要看個案是怎麼樣的個案啊！這個哪叫個案？法官也是人欸！今天是因為在三權分立底下，大家認為應把司法交給你把關，由你來代表國家，但你不能亂判！亂判或枉法裁判也不行欸！所以對於這件案子，我有很大的感慨。我不是跟你爭執什麼略式裁定，下了一個判決或一個裁判，不是用判決，不然就是用裁定，而裁定的方式，口頭上也可以，在審理單裡面註記也可以，或者用正式書面製作也可以。但問題來啦！做出來以後，這是法官的意思？不！這不是法官的意思，這代表國家的意思。一個人到底要不要關、一個人要交保多少、一個人到底要不要用科技監控，這都不是法官的意思，你是代表司法、代表國家在執法！執法完以後不是你說了算，你說了算以後，仍要讓人家表達有沒有其他意見啊！總要讓檢察官知道吧？那檢察官到底知不知道？副秘，到底有沒有通知檢察官？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員的指正。很遺憾的，這個案件確實就是違失、違反程序規定，這次……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是、不是，我不想知道有沒有違反程序規定。當然違反程序規定，問題是檢察官知不知道。除檢察官知道以後，還有兩件事情嘛！第一就是送達嘛！法官代表國家表達這個意思，表示完以後要讓外界週知，至少要通知當事人、被告，現在他的科技監控不必了或加保，例如加保2,000萬元等等，這樣可以，你是代表國家做出這樣的裁定，可以。可是，你明明知道做出來以後，檢察官是可以抗告的啊！那檢察官抗告以後，小學生也知道、以你身為法官的素養也知道，都資深法官了，總要讓檢察官知道他是可以抗告的、你總要通知吧？但你是用打電話的方式還是書面送達的方式？一早上我都沒聽到欸！可有答案？次長，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，目前臺灣高等檢察署的調查確認了兩個事實，第一個是10月9號檢察官的確在延長科控的開庭中確定表達、要求繼續延長監控，這是第一點。第二點，到目前為止，檢察官還沒有收到任何有關延長監控的裁定或者是宣示，這兩點是確定的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那我們不要說名字。副祕，你法官當了這麼久，你會不知道這個案子就是違法嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是因為這是違失、違反訴訟法規定的，高院自律委員會也因此啟動了自律，並決定把他們送法評。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個有點在開玩笑啊！社會實在是……好不容易建立的司法威信，你們也說你們很努力、法官依法審判，自稱是很權威的、全都不能干涉個案。是啊！社會上誰敢對你們干涉個案？現在臺灣已經走到……以現在的臺灣，大家對司法有這個要求、你們有這個威信，可是做出這樣的事，你不覺得荒腔走板嗎？副秘書長，你不覺得這很奇怪嗎？如果要惡意評價的話，就是兩種狀況啊！一種狀況是質疑你喝醉了嗎？忘記了嗎？專業都忘光了嗎？第二就是認為你要偷偷放人嘛！就是這麼簡單嘛！若叫我解讀，我完全想不出怎麼往正面解讀欸！次長，不是嗎？我這樣解讀有錯嗎？還是我腦袋瓜錯亂、我的腦袋瓜不正常？召委，我這樣想很合理吧？你也當過檢察官，難道不能這樣講？所以我覺得這個案子非常、非常地荒唐啦！到底隱藏了些什麼？不知道，我要求這個案子要好好徹查啦！副祕，合理吧？總要回應社會的期待啊！可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：行政調查的部分，司法院一直在進行。至於有沒有涉及其他更高的犯罪、更高的違失，這部分檢方也已經啟動了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：官官相護！我會跟你這樣講，我覺得這樣不好，外界會做這樣的解讀，真的不好啦！真的不好。","另外，我要就教的是，我們今天談到科技監控這個部分，我反而會覺得涉及整個專業訓練的問題啦！以科技監控來看的話，是為了在整個訴訟程序裡面、要在程序進行當中保全被告、保全證據，但又怕過度侵害人身自由，所以好像因此降低、有科技監控。另外是受刑人的部分，你可能認為要讓他復歸社會，又怕讓他出來以後影響整個社會的安全網，所以加上科技監控。可是呢！我反而覺得對法官、對檢察官來講的話，這部分反而不是他們在行的，因此，怎麼樣從實務上再加強教育訓練，在科技執法過程裡面保障對被告的保全或者在過程裡不要有任何閃失，我認為無論是司法院也好或法務部也好，這部分專業的教育訓練應該再加強啦！好不好？","最後一個問題我要再請教的就是國安的部分，在國安部分，我有一個很大的感慨。我們看到最近這幾個月，共諜案幾乎成了月經文，每一個月都在爆發、年年曝光，從現役軍官、退役上校一路到民間的協作者，幾乎各行各業都淪陷。這些共諜案其實不是捕風捉影，而是查出來了、也起訴了，有的送到法院啦！問題是查得多、判得輕，社會也未必看得下去。我就拿退役上校簽署投降承諾書那一件來看，法院最後判了7年6個月，看起來合理，對於7年6個月大家不會覺得輕或重，而是覺得法院判了、也不會太輕嘛！可是，你再去看看……司法院跟法務部，你們知道民間討論的是什麼嗎？他們在討論的是一個軍人偷1臺洗衣機判12年，簽投降書的卻判7年，方向到底有沒有搞錯？很難評價，因為法官獨立，每一個法官基於對案情的掌握，判斷會有所不同。這個社會不是反對依法審判，但是人民看到的是法院可不可以對得起國家的風險？量刑準則我們講很久了，雖然我們很難在要求法官獨立審判的同時，又對他指指點點，可是我們在2021年就說要設立量刑準則委員會、也送出了刑事案件妥適量刑的草案，現在都2025年了也沒看到，什麼時候準備上路？我看遙遙無期啊！司法院在這個地方有什麼打算沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，您剛剛說的這個草案現在確實還在立法院。另外，司法院本身這一端可以努力策進的就是先前已經完成一項焦點團體建議法院辦理國安事件時的量刑準則。我們最近也打算再開會，因為新進……"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒關係，慢慢來。"],["王副秘書長梅英：在基礎設施那個部分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有關係，我最主要是要說案件的審理依法審判，我們都可以懂，問題是我們很怕相關類似國安案件到最後都是法官自己看著辦、自己愛怎麼判就怎麼判，我們認為最糟糕、最怕的就是這個。雖然檢察官對於整個法院的審判可以依法提起上訴，可是常常會看到案件跟社會上的看法落差太大啦！比如說，我們並不是要求國安案件的涉案人全部都要關一輩子，但是有些案件你去看看，收了敵國或收了……我們一般講的都是中國，被告收了中國那邊的錢，也洩密、也簽署了投降文件，你說這個不叫危害國安，什麼才叫危害國安？甚至過去還有判緩刑的。如果國安案件證據明確還可以判緩刑──有因為犯後態度良好的，也有人講一時失慮、誤觸法典，用這樣的方式判緩刑，這些我都會覺得莫名其妙啦！我建議……我這樣要求好了，不只是建議，司法院或法務部就這個地方可不可以整理一下這幾年類似的國安案件緩刑案例，送交本委員會，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以喔？合理嘛！我們再好好地檢視一下。","現在我們的法院裡面有沒有國安法庭？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有國安法庭？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，有專庭。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，有這個專庭，那麼案件分到誰的手上就看運氣，變成這樣了。法官中有的判重、有的判輕，但對於這個部分：國安，我倒覺得真的不能是空話，量刑也不能失衡啊！量刑標準不一的話，我們很怕到最後檢察官抓了那麼多，判下來卻跟人民對於法律的確信或期待相差那麼大。國安法的案件最多判到12年、外患罪可以判到死刑，但情報人員協助洩密者，現職者沒有加重，退伍者卻還要加重，像這些情形邏輯都錯亂了！我今天最語重心長要講的就是請司法院真的要正視這樣的問題，國安的問題不能變成司法的盲區啦！所以我要求司法院再針對……這三年就好了，這三年國安案件中判緩刑的摘要跟理由稍微加以分析，我們再來看看、好好地做檢視，才不會讓社會覺得法院的判決是法官的恣意。我這樣不是要干預判決，而是要問我們的司法體系到底有沒有辦法扛得住整個國家的安全啦！因為制度賦予法官獨立審判權、制度賦予法官享有這麼高、這麼多保障，代表的是國家啦！總不能因為個人恣意，就像鍾文智案這樣，法官自己下了一個裁定，不用通知，該做監控的也沒有監控。這還只涉及整個社會安全網而已，但是涉及國安是重中之重，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在先做會議宣告：上午會議繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160098","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160098","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97122775cfcb07e11cd839fb4699fde532611a30f584bceeba9975b8ca2af51068035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:48:16 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嘯金融風暴其實都經歷過都會走過來只是要受多少代價而已"},{"start":226.109,"end":246.135,"text":"那既然這樣的話那就麻煩總裁了現在的問題就在於看到他剛剛講的這些東西現在他今天會有這個變動大家都說是因為美債的關係美債殖利率本來是他預期美國希望他下降現在看起來被拋售然後殖利率上升美國要付更多的錢所以美國總統嚇到了所以他停止"},{"start":246.815,"end":267.413,"text":"那你覺得我們目前為止剛剛聽到說我們外匯存底五千多億裡面您說有大概八成是持有美債那八成持有美債如果按照這個川普的方法的話將來這個殖利率可能會一直不斷的壓下去那會不會影響央行對於這個美債資金尤其是你每年要繳酷一千八百億你會不會受到影響"},{"start":268.585,"end":281.409,"text":"基本上以目前我們的評估呢到目前為止呢我們還是可以達到我們的目標你的目標所以殖利率你覺得不會大幅的下降美國川普的不是陰謀是陽謀不會實現"},{"start":284.25,"end":309.961,"text":"所以我剛剛也是在講就是說中央銀行會密切的注意密切的觀察但是這些錢他其實講的講白了就是關稅只是他的工具目標是消減貿易逆差那最重要的就是讓美國人更多的錢他一天可以收到20億美金的關稅這是他洋洋得意的地方所以我們必須面對這個結果他的政策大概不會變了只是方法的問題所以"},{"start":311.482,"end":317.72,"text":"中國開始拋售美債假如這樣的話那你會不會去市場上再把美債買過來"},{"start":320,"end":348.308,"text":"我覺得是這樣子啦你覺得台灣不應該再去接手美債不不不因為我剛剛也就是說有提供一個數據啦就是說美國的10年期的公債呢在在前一陣子的時候是4.94.9多我等於是說他現在還有另外一個美國政府說我們可能接下來要發行零利息的債券你要不要買我剛剛也是在講就是說他的你要不要成為他的朋友啦就這樣"},{"start":350.129,"end":365.899,"text":"這個就是說他這個是不通的啦不通他不通的而且呢而且呢你就會像那個像他這個關稅一開始的時候呢導致他的那個他的那個結論是我們不會去買他什麼臨時債券第二個就是他會不會發行都還是一個問題那我們也不必要那麼早就說我不會去買更沒有捐款給他們的可能性所以不會也不會有捐款給他們的可能性吧"},{"start":379.388,"end":393.636,"text":"捐款所以我剛剛在講到就是說這個捐款所以我們談判籌碼就是賴總統說的嘛第一個增加投資增加軍購第三個投資美國要降低所謂的貿易障礙來先再提我請現在莊部長"},{"start":404.127,"end":429.694,"text":"部長我想我們在這邊質詢過很多次台灣的稅不是只有關稅台灣的稅有非常多的貿易障礙尤其是像汽車的狀況就是我們有很大筆的貨物稅所以台灣人買車比別的地方貴這是長久以來的事實這點我想財政部在這裡回答委員的問題就是阿愛會增加我們的稅損那現在你已經沒有稅損這個理由可以用了那怎麼辦呢 你的籌碼是什麼"},{"start":431.259,"end":446.657,"text":"跟委員報告你一定會被要求降低所謂的非關稅貿易非關稅障礙類似貨物稅 類似我們國內的這些離離口口的一定會被挑戰這不用財委會來要求你刪了吧美國政府就叫你刪了"},{"start":447.317,"end":457.72,"text":"非關稅貿易障礙其實是在於進口的時候相關的檢核事項並不是在於其他的稅的部分你認為他們不會把貨物稅當成障礙嗎當然貨物稅的部分當然跟汽車購買者的財務負擔有關係貨物稅事實上是國內稅如果說貨物稅的話因為有貨物稅所以就沒有人要買進口車進口的車跟國產車都要課都要課的"},{"start":473.885,"end":476.968,"text":"而且目前貨物稅對汽車的部分像電動車都是零的貨物稅這些東西你們盤點了沒盤點的狀況接下來怎麼處理當然是在我們盤點範圍內你什麼時候盤點我上上個禮拜已經問過了你們說正在盤點中那現在已經剩下90天了"},{"start":493.942,"end":518.423,"text":"所以現在我們希望你們早一點把相關盤點的結果可以跟大家做個簡單的說明相關的盤點的最後我們會提交給經貿的談判小組裡面去做方案的內容重點是要消除所謂的貿易障礙絕對不會只有一個部會啦所以剛剛總裁這邊說得很清楚我們不會用犧牲台灣利益的狀況我覺得這個財政部要守住啦理解是 謝謝"},{"start":520.104,"end":538.052,"text":"總裁我還有一個問題現在就是最嚴重的問題其實是美國跟中國的他不是只有貿易大戰他可能還有接下來的匯率大戰因為中國就是擺明了我跟你談你104我就84然後今天又變成125明天可能變200"},{"start":539.272,"end":556.648,"text":"所以接下去他們其實中國手上滿手都是美國公債他拋售之後他手上可能有非常非常多的錢然後他會繼續的控制他的匯率那同樣的我們也會受到美元的影響那匯率當然是一個影響我只要問說中國跟美國這樣的貿易調當然對台灣的影響"},{"start":558.743,"end":583.05,"text":"我想就是說 基本上美國跟中國如果你繼續控制匯率你又會被川普說你是不乖的小孩所以匯率變成是我們的籌碼之一我想中央銀行不會控制匯率中央銀行只要我們的職責就是說讓匯率的波動不要過大"},{"start":583.57,"end":585.452,"text":"當它該升的時候就讓它升讓它匯率該貶的時候就要讓它貶因為它的每一個階段他說你沒有控制匯率但是我們都說我們沒有控制匯率可是美國人好像"},{"start":599.887,"end":610.456,"text":"所以我就說我們每年都要跟美國財政部都要溝通啊所以我們就是必須要跟他講台灣曾經經歷過從40塊上升到27塊這段時間對台灣的影響我想時空是不大一樣的那現在也希望說現在就是說央行在這上面要做好把關啊是是是"},{"start":622.245,"end":646.986,"text":"如果要做貿易逆差的調節 犧牲掉匯率這個可能也是對我們的廠商有更大的影響我想我們會跟美國財政部溝通因為他除了進出口關稅之外他如果還在面對匯率大幅的升值而造成我們出口更加卷上加霜這對台灣整體的經濟動能會有很大的影響匯率必須要反映他的基本面"},{"start":648.509,"end":651.517,"text":"所以我希望匯率跟你的談判不應該同時間被犧牲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1104,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時48分）謝謝主席，我請楊總裁，還有金管會彭主委。"],["主席：我們按慣例，11時50分可以發便當，各位如果現場需要，就可以用。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位好。我想這幾天大家不是只有三溫暖，應該是說快要得心臟病。從川普幾天來的動作，像是第一，沒有預期也沒有警告，就直接殺，殺完之後再告訴你還有90天可以活。現在狀況就是我們在這90天之內有沒有什麼樣的想法？還有我們到底跟他的溝通管道在哪裡？央行跟金管會平常跟美國沒有任何管道嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，基本上我們每年……"],["黃委員珊珊：你都有一些國際組織、國際會議吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們每年都會跟美國財政部來談。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，答案就是我們現在看到全世界沒有人倖免，所以不能怪你們。但是我們看到賴總統投書，講到臺灣的立場。我們昨天看到，美國嚇出一身冷汗的是他的經濟顧問，在美國大放厥詞說美國只有五個方法：第一個，接受美國關稅，不能報復；第二個，打開市場，停止不公平的交易；第三個，要提高國防支出跟軍購；第四個，投資美國；第五個，直接捐錢給美國財政部。請問總裁對這五個選項有何看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個、他說不能報復，現在他已經講有很多國家都願意跟他談判……"],["黃委員珊珊：這五個方法臺灣會選哪幾個方法？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個應該是沒問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：第一個我們已經不報復了嘛！所以我們接受了。第二個是打開市場……"],["楊總裁金龍：第二個、第三個、第四個都是可以啦！不過直接捐錢給美國財政部，這個我總覺得好像是……"],["黃委員珊珊：不可能，做不到？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，就是說好像覺得怪怪的啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：不是覺得怪怪的啦！是我們現在捐錢給人家政府的只有一種，叫做我們的友邦，比我們弱的我們才會做國際援助，大概不太可能直接給錢，中華民國預算法大概也很難直接給錢吧？金管會，我們會有什麼樣的措施？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，就好像美國以前在援助其他弱勢國家，現在他說你就去捐，好像是在援助他，我也不曉得這是什麼意思？"],["黃委員珊珊：他的答案就是給我錢，其餘免談，所以除了這五個方法，我們已經沒有別的方法了。","彭主委，這幾天我想金管會真的非常累，但是我們針對現在的狀態，金管會還有哪些可能會考慮？今天漲回來了，明天、後天呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，資本市場有波動是它的特質，如果把時間拉長，這個波動是資本市場都一定會遇到……"],["黃委員珊珊：目前還算可以承擔的狀態？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就會面對各式各樣的不確定性，其實從過去時間拉長來講……"],["黃委員珊珊：您聽到剛剛他們講的那五個方法，你覺得臺灣有多少談判的籌碼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這五個方法其實都不在金管會能夠評論的範圍之內。"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道都不在你這裡。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想金管會對於資本市場的管理，剛剛委員問我們是不是很累？我們平常心，因為實際上我們必須要更冷靜的去面對這些問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實金融海嘯、金融風暴我們都經歷過，都會走過來，只是要受多少代價而已，既然這樣的話就麻煩總裁了。現在的問題就在於剛剛講的這些東西，今天會有這個變動，大家都說是因為美債的關係。關於美債殖利率，本來美國希望它下降，現在看起來被拋售，然後殖利率又上升，美國要付更多的錢，所以美國總統嚇到了，因此他停止。目前為止，剛剛聽到我們外匯存底五千多億裡面，你說大概有八成是持有美債。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：八成持有美債，如果按照川普的方法，將來這個殖利率可能會一直不斷的壓下去，那會不會影響央行對於美債資金？尤其是每年要繳庫1,800億，會不會受到影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上以我們的評估，到目前為止還是可以達到我們的目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你覺得殖利率不會大幅的下降？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，應該是。"],["黃委員珊珊：美國川普的陽謀不會實現？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我剛剛講中央銀行會密切的注意，觀察它的發展。"],["黃委員珊珊：你密切的觀察，但是這些錢其實講白了，關稅只是他的工具，目標是消減貿易逆差，最重要的就是讓美國人有更多的錢，一天可以收到20億美金的關稅，這是他洋洋得意的地方。我們必須面對這個結果，他的政策大概不會變了，只是方法的問題。假如中國開始拋售美債，你會不會去市場上把美債買過來？你覺得臺灣應不應該再去接手美債？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，因為我剛剛也有提供一個數據，美國10年期公債在前一陣子是4.9多，將近5%……"],["黃委員珊珊：不是啦！我的意思是現在還有另外一個，美國政府說他們接下來可能要發行零利息的債券，你要不要買？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也是在講，就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：講白了就是你要不要成為他的朋友？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，他這個是不通的啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：不通，好，所以你不會買零利息的債券？"],["楊總裁金龍：而且會像他這個關稅一開始的時候，導致他的股市……"],["黃委員珊珊：結論是我們不會去買他的什麼零息債券，第二個就是不可能去投資他……"],["楊總裁金龍：他會不會發行都還是一個問題，我們也不必要那麼早就說不會去買……"],["黃委員珊珊：更沒有捐款給他們的可能性。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為現在還沒有談到這件事……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以也不會有捐款給他們的可能性吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛講到捐款就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我很清楚！所以我們的談判籌碼就是賴總統說的，第一個增加投資，增加軍購，第三個投資美國，降低所謂的貿易障礙。時間暫停，我請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想我們在這邊質詢過很多次了，臺灣的稅不是只有關稅，臺灣有非常多稅的貿易障礙，尤其像汽車有很大筆的貨物稅，所以臺灣人買車比別的地方貴，這是長久以來的事實。這點我想財政部在這裡回答委員的問題時，就說是會增加稅損，現在你已經沒有稅損這個理由可以用了，那怎麼辦呢？你的籌碼是什麼？你一定會被要求降低所謂的非關稅非關稅貿易障礙，類似貨物稅，類似國內的這些「哩哩扣扣」，一定會被挑戰，這不用財委會來要求你刪了吧？美國政府就叫你刪了。"],["莊部長翠雲：非關稅貿易障礙，其實是在於進口的時候，相關的檢核事項，並不是在於其他的稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：你認為他們不會把貨物稅當成障礙嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：貨物稅的部分，當然跟汽車購買者的財務負擔有關，貨物稅事實上是國內稅，如果貨物稅……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為有貨物稅，所以就沒有人要買進口車啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不管進口車跟國產車都要課啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：都要課的，而且目前貨物稅對汽車的部分，像電動車都是零貨物稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，我的意思是這些東西你們盤點了沒？盤點的狀況，接下來怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，當然是在我們的盤點範圍內。"],["黃委員珊珊：你什麼時候盤點？我上上個禮拜已經問過了，你們說正在盤點中，現在已經剩下90天了，所以現在我們希望你們早一點把相關盤點的結果，可以跟大家做個簡單的說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：相關的盤點，最後我們會提交給經貿的談判小組，去做方案內容。"],["黃委員珊珊：重點是要消除所謂的貿易障礙，絕對不會只有一個部會，所以剛才總裁說的很清楚，不會用犧牲臺灣利益的狀況，我覺得這個財政部要守住。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，理解，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我還有一個問題，現在最嚴重的問題其實是美國跟中國，他們不是只有貿易大戰，接下來可能還有匯率大戰，因為中國就是擺明了不跟你談，你104%，我就84%，然後今天又變成125%，明天可能變200%。其實中國手上滿手都是美國公債，他拋售之後手上可能有非常、非常多的錢，然後他會繼續控制他的匯率。同樣的，我們也會受到美元的影響，匯率當然是一個影響，我主要是問中國跟美國這樣的貿易大戰對臺灣的影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，美國跟中國大陸……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果你繼續控制匯率，又會被川普說你是不乖的小孩，所以匯率變成是我們的籌碼之一喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！中央銀行不會控制匯率，中央銀行的職責就是讓匯率的波動不要過大，當它該升的時候就讓它升，匯率該貶的時候就要讓它貶……"],["黃委員珊珊：臺灣曾經經歷過……"],["楊總裁金龍：因為它的每一個階段，每一個情況……"],["黃委員珊珊：你說你沒有控制匯率，我們都說我們沒有控制匯率，可是美國人好像……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說我們每年都要跟美國財政部溝通，我們必須要跟他講我們的情況是怎麼樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：重點是臺灣曾經經歷過從40塊上升到27塊，這段時間對臺灣的影響……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想時空是不大一樣的……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在我也希望央行在這上面要做好把關。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們會持續……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果要做貿易逆差的調節，犧牲掉匯率，這個可能也是對我們的廠商有更大的影響。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們會跟美國財政部持續溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為除了進出口關稅之外，如果還要再面對匯率大幅的升值，而造成我們出口更加雪上加霜，這對臺灣整體的經濟動能會有很大的影響。"],["楊總裁金龍：匯率必須要反映他的基本面，這個我們都知道了。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以我希望匯率跟你的談判，不應該同時間被犧牲，好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢。","下一位請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160097","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160097","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712f347f219d578f2b8f11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba9974277e4527d10aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:44:57 - 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至於我們有機會重新的讓台灣能夠走入到整個這個全球的整個架構裡面去所以我覺得應該也讓各界更知道當這樣的時候它當然是有一些變數跟變局也是一個挑戰但是當我們用不同的角度去面對的時候過去台灣也歷經過兩次的很大的挑戰"},{"start":194.696,"end":213.958,"text":"那反倒台灣的韌性在這時候都展現出來反倒後面對台灣的整體經濟還是持續往上走所以這一次應該是台灣遇到第三次的一個重大的挑戰部長有沒有信心我們一樣能夠有台灣的韌性度過這波危機讓台灣的經濟台灣的產業再一波的往上走"},{"start":215.146,"end":235.12,"text":"確實這樣子就是說現在我們看到這所有的競爭要件都回到70點那這個立足點當我們跟其他的競爭國擺在同一條競爭線上面的時候也就是說所有的人對美國的出口的這個稅率回到10%這樣的一個條件的時候台灣的競爭力是非常的強的"},{"start":236.294,"end":257.734,"text":"而且第二個我們跟美國在科技的商品或者其他的商品上面其實大部分都是互補的所以我們也因為這個樣子所以從今天下午開始我們在院跟府都會去訪談各地的工業還有其他商業的這些團體這些相關的"},{"start":260.556,"end":282.17,"text":"這些人員那聽聽他們對這樣的一個改變是不是政府還有需要再加強在目前規劃沒有注意到的地方雖然我們都已經很努力了但是大部分我們還是要聽聽這個這些業者的這個聲音所以福根院從今天下午開始就啟動這樣的一個下鄉的這個機制也在這裡跟委員報告"},{"start":286.653,"end":314.421,"text":"也藉這個機會的時候同時我們在調整我們整體的體制然後當面對的川普面對美國這樣的一個重大政策當美國跟中國之間的這樣的一個處理方式的時候其實台灣反倒也是從這個機會中去調整我們的體制也面對全球的這樣的一個變局那同時間因為變化也相當的快啦因為我們談判過程也不斷的在談那談完回來之後哪些需要再給予更多的協助我們隨時都動態的在做調整嘛880億我認為其實只是一個底"},{"start":316.101,"end":335.933,"text":"底標啦但未來有更有需要我相信政府都會更加支持讓我們產業能夠度過這一波同時間再過做進一步的轉型讓我們的台灣的經濟韌性更加的強化我認為這個是這一波這個美國的調升關稅反倒是對台灣更是我們看到另外一個不同的層次的一個角度"},{"start":337.955,"end":352.295,"text":"過去這幾天國民黨很多酸言酸語 應該要採用親中反美的路線然後王宏威 徐宇甄 甚至於羅志強 甚至於趙少康都是用揶揄跟甚至於要求親中反美的路線那我們看到"},{"start":353.376,"end":372.204,"text":"美國跟中國之間現在在貿易的這個大戰當中如果我們採取這一條路線的話我們恐怕現在面對的是跟中國一樣的一個狀況這個被調升高度的關稅的問題部長怎麼看待我們現在走的這個路線跟現在講的親中反美路線到底哪一條路線才是一個正確的路線"},{"start":372.924,"end":392.096,"text":"當然我想這個不言可喻沒有人會願意從32升到125大家都選擇一個跟著大勢而走的路線我想我們也整個的團隊朝這方面來判斷我們認為說談判"},{"start":394.909,"end":421.244,"text":"不是跟這個對方國就是採取對立的狀態我想這個可能是比較沒有談判經驗的人的一個想法而且這也是跟全世界幾乎多數國家都是面對這樣的問題大家也都在面對採取用這個看來目前只有中國採取比較強硬的一個方式而中國是一個專制的一個國家他才硬的那更何況我們當然是走在民主更何況台灣跟美國有很多在"},{"start":422.104,"end":443.611,"text":"科技上各方面的互補更何況他也是一個民主的一個國家裡面他有很多的機制所以我覺得這個路線的選擇其實非常清楚的啦所以我覺得也還好這樣的親中反美的這樣說法很快的其實就消下來了那從現在整個來看其實我們務實的穩健路線對台灣未來長遠是一個很重要的大家一起努力接下來看起來美國跟中國之間的這個貿易戰會升級那台灣怎麼樣在面對這個"},{"start":450.214,"end":460.79,"text":"中美贸易战之间升级的这个之中找到一个我们更好的一个处理方式部长什么样的看法是的我们当然会动态的去调整我们的所有的措施"},{"start":462.755,"end":484.435,"text":"動態調整因為看來這個會是一個長期的一個它不會是這麼短的而且這個中國跟美國之間的態度是怎麼樣子所以我想還是要請各部會都要審慎來因應來面對那台灣至少在目前為止是被認為是一個可信賴的夥伴我想這個對於台灣整體的國際形象也很重要"},{"start":484.815,"end":512.222,"text":"那接下來我問的是很多的未來如果中國被課這個高關稅之後有很多的商品有可能轉傾銷進來這個部分政府有沒有什麼樣的因應方案報告委員我想洗產地的這個部地這個部分我想我在這個這個地方再做一次報告首先我們會加強入貨的這個監測包括這個回銷台灣或者是轉到蘇美的部分第二個加強業者的宣傳告訴他這個是這個"},{"start":515.599,"end":527.509,"text":"會影響美國對我們的判斷第三個建立違規業者的名單那第四個裁罰重演他一旦違規我們就裁罰重演第五個運用反取消的措施來防止"},{"start":528.905,"end":546.793,"text":"透過台灣去來洗產地這個是美國在這一次他對關稅談判的四大重點之一好一方面是美國的一方面對於我們國內的產業這一塊也要持續的支持的更注意不要造成我們的內部的一些影響好不好最後一點時間我請教一下陳部長好不好好謝謝部長"},{"start":548.8,"end":568.429,"text":"不知道 我知道昨天你有到前鎮漁港去啦因為昨天下午我在開另外一個會議沒辦法趕到現場但是我知道你有做了一些我們也希望未來在水產品這一塊能夠持續的給你輔導跟協助啦一方面它當然市場雖然但另外一方面也有可能開拓出更多的一些機會我也希望持續的加強不管是美國市場或其他市場的打入能夠讓我們優質的水產品能夠繼續走向國際"},{"start":571.989,"end":600.708,"text":"我想這個其實也是一個機會我想我們會趁這個機會把更多的這些支持方案去落實在我們的產業讓它有更高的競爭力效到其他的國家我也希望未來像不管是冷鏈或者相關的讓我們可以走入全世界的一些需要建置的一些系統我們希望持續的強化好不好讓我們的水產品能夠更保存到價值更高附加價值然後送往全世界更好的一些產地賣到更好的價格這是我們的目標好不好就持續來推動好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":601.749,"end":601.8,"text":"谢谢大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時45分）謝謝召委，請郭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，辛苦了。其實賴總統從川普選前講關稅到當選後，我有觀察到賴總統都有密切關注川普的關稅政策，一言一行一直在盯著，包括他在當選後2月14號立即召開國安高層會議進行研商，會後並召開記者會，甚至在4月6號立即提出五項五大方案。我觀察到我們的國家元首賴總統其實密切掌握住川普整個大方向，所以他提出來的很快也因應到川普的方向，所以我們也很快讓川普感受到我們在面對這個問題，部長認同我這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我想賴總統整個清楚的掌握！我們看到也因為這樣，在4月9號的時候，今天早上清晨川普也很快的，除了對中國125%以外，其他75個國家，包括臺灣，全數都暫緩90天，那等於是我們的第一步至少啟動了，而且在未來我們臺灣跟日本、跟韓國會是列為第一波溝通對象，所以我們團隊都已經做好準備在那邊談了！我要這樣講，其實也是表示政府在這件事情上面的方向是正確的，我也希望部長能夠讓社會各界更清楚知道，政府其實是全面掌握住美國的政策方向，同時間不管是在各項溝通談判，甚至於在內部，我們也都全面在溝通跟掌握當中。我覺得要讓國人更有信心支持政府，也信賴政府，我認為這個才會使整個後續跟美國的談判更加有利，部長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：同意啦！好。從今天股市上面看來，效益就整個呈現了，這雖然是比較早期的數字，但是差不多就是這樣的數字，幾乎整個漲回來了啦，表示我們整體……不只是臺灣，其他國家也都是這樣，表示我們因應著方向在走，包括賴總統也投書到彭博社闡述深化臺美經貿路徑，這個大概也是賴總統再次定調我們的方向，我們要走跟美國深化經貿關係的路線；也就是說，過去以來在經貿之間，我們很多時候甚至WTO或者是CPTPP，我們不見得走得進去，但是因為這樣的機會，反倒讓我們有機會跟美國好好的談一談，同時間甚至我們有機會重新讓臺灣能夠走入整個全球的架構裡面去。所以我覺得，應該也讓各界更知道，當這樣的時候當然是有一些變數跟變局，也是一個挑戰，但是當我們用不同的角度去面對的時候，過去臺灣也歷經過兩次很大的挑戰，反倒臺灣的韌性在這時候都展現出來，反倒後面臺灣的整體經濟還是持續往上走。這一次應該是臺灣遇到的第三次重大挑戰，部長有沒有信心，我們一樣能夠有臺灣的韌性，度過這波危機，讓臺灣的經濟、臺灣的產業再一波往上走？"],["郭部長智輝：確實這樣，現在我們看到所有競爭要件都回到起始點，這個立足點當我們跟其他的競爭國擺在同一條競爭線上面的時候；也就是說，所有人對美國的出口稅率回到10%這樣一個條件的時候，臺灣的競爭力是非常強的。而且，第二個，我們跟美國在科技的商品，或者其他商品上面其實大部分都是互補的，也因為這個樣子，從今天下午開始，我們院跟府都會去訪談各地工業，還有其他商業團體這些相關人員，聽聽他們對這樣一個改變，是不是政府還有需要再加強？在目前規劃有沒有沒注意到的地方？雖然我們都已經很努力了，但是大部分我們還是要聽聽這些業者的聲音，所以府跟院從今天下午開始就啟動這樣一個下鄉的機制，也在這裡跟委員報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也藉這個機會同時調整我們整體的體質，面對川普、面對美國這樣一個重大政策，美國跟中國之間這樣的處理方式的時候，其實臺灣反倒也從這個機會中調整我們的體質，也面對全球這樣的變局。同時間因為變化相當快，談判過程也不斷地在談，談完回來之後哪些需要再給予更多協助，我們隨時都動態調整。880億我認為其實只是一個底標，未來若更有需要，我相信政府都會更加支持，讓我們的產業能夠渡過這一波，同時間再做進一步的轉型，讓我們臺灣的經濟韌性更加強化。我認為這一波美國調升關稅，反倒是我們看到臺灣另外一個不同層次的角度。","過去這幾天國民黨很多酸言酸語，說應該要採用親中反美的路線啦，包括王鴻薇、許宇甄，甚至於羅智強，甚至於趙少康，都是用揶揄，甚至要求採親中反美的路線。我們看到美國跟中國之間現在在貿易大戰當中，如果我們採取這一條路線的話，我們恐怕現在面對的是跟中國一樣的狀況，就是面臨被調升高度關稅的問題。部長怎麼看待我們現在走的這個路線，跟現在講的親中反美路線，到底哪一條路線才是一個正確的路線？"],["郭部長智輝：當然，我想這個不言可喻啦！沒有人會願意從32升到125，大家都選擇跟著大勢而走這樣的路線。我們整個團隊也朝這方面判斷，我們認為談判不是跟對方國採取對立的狀態，我想這個可能是比較沒有談判經驗的人的一個想法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：而且全世界幾乎多數國家也都面對這樣的問題，大家也都在面對，看來目前也只有中國採取比較強硬的方式，而中國是一個專制的國家，他採取硬的，我們當然是走在民主。更何況臺灣跟美國有很多科技上各方面的互補，而且他也是一個民主的國家，他有很多機制，所以我覺得這個路線的選擇其實是非常清楚的。我覺得還好這樣親中反美的說法很快就消下來了，從現在整個來看，我們務實的穩健路線對臺灣未來長遠的發展是很重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：大家一起努力！"],["賴委員瑞隆：大家一起努力！接下來，看起來美國跟中國之間的貿易戰會升級，臺灣怎麼樣在中美貿易戰升級之中找到一個更好的處理方式？部長有怎麼樣的看法？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們當然會動態調整我們所有的措施。"],["賴委員瑞隆：動態調整啦！因為看來這會是長期的，它不會是這麼短期的，而且中國跟美國之間的態度是怎麼樣子，我想還是要請各部會審慎因應面對。臺灣至少在目前為止被認為是一個可信賴的夥伴，我想這個對於臺灣整體的國際形象也很重要。","接下來我問的是未來如果中國被課高關稅之後，有很多商品有可能轉傾銷進來，這個部分政府有沒有什麼樣的因應方案？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想洗產地這個部分，我在這個地方再做一次報告。首先我們會加強陸貨的監測，包括回銷臺灣或者是轉到輸美的部分。第二個，加強業者的宣傳，告訴它這個會影響美國對我們的判斷。第三個，建立違規業者的名單。第四個，一旦違規，我們就裁罰從嚴。第五個，運用反傾銷的措施來防止透過臺灣洗產地。這個是美國在這一次對關稅談判的四大重點之一。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，一方面是美國，一方面對於我們國內產業這一塊也要持續支持跟注意，不要造成我們內部的一些影響，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一點時間我請教一下陳部長，好不好？謝謝部長。","部長，我知道昨天你有到前鎮漁港去，因為昨天下午我在開另外一個會議，沒辦法趕到現場，但是我知道你有做了一些……我們也希望未來在水產品這一塊能夠持續的給予輔導跟協助，一方面市場雖然……但另外一方面，也有可能開拓出更多一些機會。我也希望持續加強打入美國市場或其他市場，讓我們優質的水產品能夠繼續走向國際。"],["陳部長駿季：會的，我想這其實也是一個機會，我們會趁這個機會把更多的支持方案落實在我們的產業，讓它有更高的競爭力銷到其他國家去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望未來不管是冷鏈或者相關的，讓我們可以走入全世界一些需要建置的系統持續強化，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：讓我們的水產品能夠更具保存價值，有更高的附加價值，然後送往全世界更好的一些產地，賣到更好的價格好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，這是我們的目標，我們一定努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就持續推動。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴瑞隆委員。我們先宣告中午不休息，延長開會到議程結束。","下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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先有請外交部市長 我就直接詢問其實現在還是有許多的媒體甚至於外界在造謠說美方是已讀不回所以說對台灣來講這個對可能還沒有排上所以我要很明確的詢問在這一波談判當中我們有信心是已經接上線"},{"start":37.506,"end":58.791,"text":"哇 我們不是有信心 我們現在已經掛上號而且這個是經過美國的白宮相關的人士證實那所以說並不是這個空泛的就是說我們去有個感覺而已這是確實的事情 我們已經排上號我們就是在那個75國的名單裡面我們馬上要 我們ready 而且我們隨時要準備開始進行談判"},{"start":60.011,"end":82.31,"text":"那麼因為我們已經ready我們掛上號我們隨時都已經準備要好談判其實從川普昨天半夜的決定就可以看得出來他很明確的就是希望能夠在這場關稅風暴底下去紅色供應鏈甚至於呢就是要讓全球在這場貿易的關稅當中要做出決定跟選擇是不是"},{"start":83.911,"end":97.627,"text":"沒錯,我想這個非紅供應鏈是川普很重要的從第一任開始他的一個重要的政策那台灣因為我們的政策選擇上面我想我們現在來說是站在對的一方"},{"start":98.1,"end":109.802,"text":"好我想這個對於所有的全國民眾來講可以先暫緩休息90天來看我們行政團隊的表現這相當重要的好謝謝鄭次喔我現在有請經濟部跟財政部我首先先問經濟部其實美中貿易戰在川普第一任的時候就已經展開了2018年就有美中貿易戰之後台灣為了因應我們曾經有修正法律也就是在2019年的時候我們修正了貿易法"},{"start":124.045,"end":150.312,"text":"那麼在這個法案的過程當中為什麼要做這樣的修正其實最重要的就是避免在美中貿易戰底下台灣變成息產地的中介是吧那麼整體來說我想要就問經濟部跟財政部因為我知道這個政策過去是關務署署長啦這個部分我想您一定非常的了解喔那麼在修法之後息產地的件數有沒有減少經濟部或財政部都可以"},{"start":152.207,"end":166.952,"text":"報告委員其實我們一直都在嚴加的管制進口監視的這個措施一直都沒有中斷而且呢我們也經常辦理相關的宣導會所以其實現在的廠商都非常的注意洗產地這個規定"},{"start":169.774,"end":184.368,"text":"這個樣的措施也是我們所不容許的好 所以我想問的重點就是那我們在這個裁處的案件是不是有逐漸減少當中而且外界或者是美國是不是在我們2019年修法之後至今到現在2025年"},{"start":187.858,"end":215.377,"text":"習產地的案件是有效減少嗎然後來自中國習產地的比例又是如何來 財政部是 跟委員報告其實我們查獲的件數有388件其中輸往美國的有133件我們倒是沒有去比較修法前跟修法後的變化但是事實上海關一直都在執行好 我知道海關相當的辛苦啦尤其在這個部分但是為什麼我會特別問這個是如果我們從2018年"},{"start":217.538,"end":242.561,"text":"看到美中貿易戰2019年修法到現在如果我們能夠透過修法有效的減少而且讓美方有看到我們是一個民主法治的國家我們有法規而且我們守法而且我們執法有成效我相信這個對於談判代表來講這就是一個很好的數據如果現在沒有我建議你們其實應該要讓數據透明出來有沒有道理"},{"start":243.998,"end":269.916,"text":"那麼就是因為擔心席產地喔但是我現在擔心啊是上有政策下有政策對策而且在藍白聯手底下的立法院不知道會通過什麼法案我們2019年把它杜絕起來之後我們看到2024年這個也是我跟財政部關務署所要的資料目前2024年對美國輸出的五大商品因為其實很多樣所以我大概做了五大類"},{"start":270.536,"end":273.743,"text":"就是USB極限器是排名第一有一兆"},{"start":275.608,"end":280.973,"text":"199億然後電腦主機是5112億電腦主機零件及附件第三名是2174億IC第四名是2153億網路設備是570億我想這個就是展現出台灣在對美之間貿易的部分但是我現在非常擔憂的是這些台灣可以製造中國也可以製造是吧"},{"start":301.731,"end":319.002,"text":"當中國面對現在川普所迎來的一百多超過破百的關稅的時候這些東西會不會透過台灣變成是一個席產地呢我想剛剛其實沈博安委員也跟我注意到了同樣的問題那就是國民黨所提出的離島示範區"},{"start":321.543,"end":345.088,"text":"難道現在是要為中國習產地開後門嗎從第18條之一的第6項當中我來念給大家聽大陸地區人民法人團體機構資金物品商品老物及服務進出離島自由示範區是可以透過主管機關來做一個特別的擬定其中他的說明欄就講了"},{"start":346.695,"end":362.657,"text":"會給予適度相關規定的鬆綁所以我就請教陸委會這個是不是在我們2019年修法而且我們有效的杜絕所謂洗產地之後現在藍白聯手"},{"start":364.229,"end":383.146,"text":"要使中國的廠商、勞力、貨物能夠透過洗產地的方式透過所謂的禮保示範貿易區為中國開後門如果這樣的法規過了之後我們是不是就是選對的人走對的路選錯的人關稅超過一百"},{"start":384.429,"end":408.269,"text":"我想現在基本上陸委會的態度還是說關於離島建設條例的部分還是必須要在兩岸人民關係條例底下來去做進行了那委員所關心的有沒有可能反而變成是我們開了這個國安的後門確實我們也認為現在這個法律在當前社會沒有共識尤其是我們全力的在進行一個要脫離紅色供應鏈的這種國際的這種氛圍底下的話那麼也應該要用國安的這個層次來去做一個思考"},{"start":408.729,"end":433.848,"text":"所以如果說他涉及到國安的這個議題同時在國內也是有高度的疑慮更甚至於是我們現在看到美國總統川普也特別的關注希望全球的民主國家都能夠謹慎的來跟中國保持一個經貿的往來的一個距離的話那貿然的來去做一個開放確實有可能會在人流物流金流都有可能會開後門造成國安疑慮甚至會影響到台美關係的情況底下應該要更審慎的來做一個評估"},{"start":434.428,"end":452.716,"text":"好這是陸委會的立場嘛那我問一下經濟部因為如果是離島建設條例當然相關的話這也跟經濟有關如果扣一個經濟的帽子當然你說要讓離島能夠推進經濟能夠繁榮等等我們都同意不然不會我們看到這幾天全球股市"},{"start":453.556,"end":466.752,"text":"因為川普的一句話或是美國的一個決定就會像洗三溫暖一樣大起大落但是這個法案目前他就在立法院裡面如果經濟部被問到相關的離島"},{"start":468.035,"end":483.619,"text":"自由貿易示範區要讓大陸地區的人民法人團體機關資金物流勞力服務通通可以透過這個示範區做一定程度的適度鬆綁請問這個會給我們的現在面臨的貿易談判帶來什麼樣的衝擊跟危險"},{"start":490.804,"end":516.494,"text":"報告委員您剛所提到的也是政府的顧慮所以我認為我們應該要好好的處理所以這個條例現在我們也希望在立法院討論的時候必須要顧及到國際的趨勢的發展那剛才陸委會的長官也有表達說這個條例的內容已經涉及到整體的國家的安全所以這個部分一定要去非常的注重這一點"},{"start":517.096,"end":546.033,"text":"好最後我再請外交部正次因為現在這個法規它不是秘密它是你上網可以看得到對外你也知道所以美國也看到所以外交部的立場是什麼會不會現在我們說了我們前面本來有法規我們要杜絕席產地我要講喔USB極限器電腦主機電腦主機零件IC網路設備這些東西台灣可以製造中國在昨天"},{"start":547.389,"end":570.152,"text":"蔡局長也是國安局蔡局長所提出來的國安局報告當中就有特別提到了中國現在面臨的東西就是經濟下滑內需整個緊縮然後產能過剩他現在最需要的就是把東西直接的往外銷如果台灣現在這樣的一個所謂離島自由貿易市番區出來那是不是給美國錯誤的訊息"},{"start":571.909,"end":586.721,"text":"那麼這是我們所擔心的一個方向那麼美國對於這個洗產地的責任非常的重視那麼也這是他整個這個關稅全球佈局的一個用意之所在那麼他會跟美國的盡力的溝通那麼也希望"},{"start":587.341,"end":612.655,"text":"那麼剛才這個包括陸委會包括經濟部也表達立場我們也會跟美國來繼續的溝通基於這樣一個立場來繼續溝通然後我們一定會對於這個洗產地的這樣一個作為做全面的一個防範我們不會不希望留下任何的漏洞那麼也當然這方面也是大院能夠這個注意到這樣的一種風險我們會適度的把這個相關的訊息跟這個我們立院這邊來做溝通"},{"start":613.895,"end":631.511,"text":"所以從外交部經濟部財政部再到陸委會其實都有明確的立場我們也透過質詢台來對外轉達只是很遺憾現在就是國民黨加民眾黨超過半數所以我也希望透過這個質詢台透過這個直播讓全球的國人可以看到到底選對的人走錯選對的人"},{"start":633.976,"end":646.545,"text":"就會走對的路選錯的人到底造成什麼樣的路我想大家都看得到那麼我也希望這個離島自由示範區條例這個案子最好藍白能夠自己把它先內部把它取消掉謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時44分）謝謝主席！因為時間有限，我先請部會的首長一起上來：外交部陳政次、經濟部江政次、財政部謝常次還有陸委會的沈副主委。","先請教外交部，次長，我就直接詢問，其實現在還是有許多的媒體甚至於外界在造謠說美方是「已讀不回」，對臺灣來講，這個隊可能還沒有排上，所以我要很明確的詢問，在這一波談判當中，我們有信心是已經接上線了？"],["陳次長明祺：我們不是有信心，而是現在已經掛上號，且這經過美國的白宮相關人士證實，所以說並不是空泛的我們有一個感覺而已，這是確實的事情，我們已經排上號，就在75國的名單裡面，我們ready而且隨時準備進行談判。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為我們已經ready，掛上號，隨時都已經準備好談判，其實從川普昨天半夜的決定，可以看得出來他就是很明確的希望能夠在這場關稅風暴底下去紅色供應鏈，甚至就是要讓全球在這場貿易關稅風波中做出決定跟選擇，是不是？"],["陳次長明祺：沒錯，我想非紅供應鏈是川普很重要的、從第一任就開始的一個重要的政策，臺灣因為我們的政策選擇，我想我們現在來說是站在對的一方。"],["林委員楚茵：我想這個對於全國所有民眾來講，可以先暫緩休息90天來看我們行政團隊的表現，這是相當重要的。謝謝政次！","現在有請經濟部跟財政部，首先先問經濟部。其實美中貿易戰在川普第一任的時候就已經展開了，2018年就有美中貿易戰，之後臺灣為了因應，我們曾經有修正法律，也就是在2019年的時候，我們修正了貿易法，當時在修法過程中為什麼要做這樣的修正，其實最重要的就是避免臺灣在美中貿易戰底下變成洗產地的中介，是吧？"],["江次長文若：是的。"],["林委員楚茵：那麼我就請問經濟部跟財政部，因為我知道政次過去曾任關務署署長，相信您對這個部分一定非常的瞭解，那麼在修法之後，洗產地的件數有沒有減少？經濟部或財政部都可以答復。"],["江次長文若：報告委員，其實我們一直都在嚴加管制，進口監視這個措施一直都沒有中斷，而且我們也經常辦理相關的宣導會，所以其實現在的廠商都非常注意洗產地這個規定，這樣的措施也是我們所不容許的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想問的重點就是我們在這方面的裁處案件是不是在逐漸減少當中？外界或者是美國，在我們2019年修法之後到現在2025年，洗產地的案件是否有效減少？來自中國洗產地的比例又是如何？請財政部說明。"],["謝次長鈴媛：跟委員報告，我們查獲的件數有388件，其中輸往美國的有133件，我們倒是沒有去比較修法前跟修法後的變化，但是事實上海關一直都在執行。"],["林委員楚茵：我知道海關相當的辛苦，尤其是在這個部分，但是為什麼我會特別問這個事？如果我們從2018年看到了美中貿易戰，在2019年又修了法，現在如果我們能夠透過修法有效的減少且讓美方看到我們是一個民主法治的國家，我們有法規、我們守法而且我們執法有成效，我相信對於談判代表來講，這就是一個很好的數據，如果現在沒有，我建議你們應該要讓數據透明出來，有沒有道理？"],["謝次長玲媛：有。"],["林委員楚茵：就是因為擔心洗產地，我現在擔心的是「上有政策、下有對策」，而且在藍白聯手底下的立法院不知道會通過什麼法案。","我們在2019年把它杜絕起來之後，根據我跟財政部關務署要的資料顯示，2024年對美國輸出的五大商品，其實種類很多樣，我大概分為五大類，其中USB、集線器排名第一，有1兆199億元，第二名是電腦主機，達5,112億元，電腦主機零件及附件是第三名，有2,171億元，第四名的IC是2,153億元，第五名的網路設備是570億元，我想這個就展現出臺灣在對美之間貿易的部分，但是我現在非常擔憂的是，這些臺灣可以製造，中國也可以製造，是吧？當中國面對現在川普襲來的一百多破百的關稅的時候，這些東西會不會透過臺灣去洗產地呢？","其實剛剛沈伯洋委員也跟我注意到同樣的問題，那就是國民黨所提出的離島示範區，難道現在是要為中國洗產地開後門嗎？第十八條之一第六項規定大陸地區人民、法人、團體、機構、資金、物品、商品、勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區，可以透過主管機關來特別擬訂，在說明欄就講了是為給予相關規定適度鬆綁，所以我要請教陸委會，這個是不是在我們2019年修法而且有效的杜絕所謂洗產地之後，現在藍白聯手要使中國的廠商、勞力、貨物能夠透過洗產地的方式，透過所謂的離島自由貿易示範區，為中國開後門？如果這樣的法規通過了，我們是不是就是選對的人走對的路、選錯的人關稅超過一百？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：關於離島建設條例的部分，我想現在基本上陸委會的態度還是認為必須要在兩岸人民關係條例底下去進行，委員所關心的有沒有可能反而變成是我們開了國安的後門，確實我們也認為現在這個法律，在當前社會沒有共識，尤其是我們全力的在進行一個要脫離紅色供應鏈的這種國際氛圍底下的話，也應該要用國安的這個層次去做一個思考，所以如果說它涉及到國安的議題，同時在國內也是有高度的疑慮，更甚至於我們現在看到美國總統川普也特別的關注，希望全球的民主國家都能夠謹慎的跟中國的經貿往來保持一個距離，那貿然的去做一個開放，確實有可能在人流、物流、金流會開後門，造成國安疑慮，甚至影響到臺美關係的情況底下，應該要更審慎的來做一個評估。"],["林委員楚茵：好，這是陸委會的立場，那我問一下經濟部，因為離島建設條例當然也跟經濟有關，如果扣一個經濟的帽子，說到要讓離島能夠推進經濟、能夠繁榮等等，我們都同意，我們看到這幾天全球股市，因為川普的一句話或是美國的一個決定，就如同洗三溫暖一樣大起大落，但是這個法案目前就在立法院裡面，如果經濟部被問到離島相關的自由貿易示範區要讓大陸地區的人民、法人、團體、機關、資金、物流、勞力、服務，統統可以透過這個示範區做一定程度的適度鬆綁，請問這個會給我們現在面臨的貿易談判帶來什麼樣的衝擊跟危險？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，您剛剛提到的也是政府的顧慮，所以我認為我們應該要好好的處理，在立法院討論這個條例的時候，我們也希望必須要顧及到國際趨勢的發展，剛才陸委會長官也有表達說這個條例的內容已經涉及到整體的國家安全，所以在這部分一定要非常注重這一點。"],["林委員楚茵：最後我再請教外交部政次，因為現在這個法規不是秘密，是上網就可以看得到的，國外也可知道，所以美國也看得到，請問外交部的立場是什麼？之前我們說了我們本來有法規，我們要杜絕洗產地，我要提醒各位，USB、集線器、電腦主機、電腦主機零件、IC、網路設備這些東西，臺灣可以製造，中國也可以，在昨天國安局蔡局長提出來的國安局報告當中，就特別提到了中國現在面臨的就是經濟下滑，內需整個緊縮，然後產能過剩，他現在最需要的就是把東西直接的往外銷，如果臺灣現在弄出一個這樣的所謂離島自由貿易示範區，那是不是給美國錯誤的訊息？"],["陳次長明祺：這也是我們所擔心的一個方向，美國對於這個洗產地非常重視，這也是他整個關稅全球布局的一個用意所在，我們當然會跟美國盡力溝通，剛才包括陸委會包括經濟部也都表達了立場，我們也會基於這樣的一個立場來跟美國繼續的溝通，然後一定會對洗產地這樣的作為做全面的防範，我們不會也不希望留下任何的漏洞，當然大院能夠注意到這樣的一種風險，我們會適度的把相關的訊息跟立院這邊來做溝通。"],["林委員楚茵：所以從外交部、經濟部、財政部再到陸委會，其實都有明確的立場，我們也透過質詢台來對外轉達，只是很遺憾的，現在國民黨加民眾黨的委員數超過半數，所以我也希望透過這個質詢台、透過這個直播，讓全球的國人可以看到選對的人就會走對的路，選錯的人到底造成什麼樣的路，我想大家都看得到，那麼我也希望這個離島自由貿易示範區條例的案子，最好藍白能夠自己內部先把它取消掉，謝謝。"],["陳次長正祺：感謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。","接下來由李坤城上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160095","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160095","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712a563f78e75be59daf179c558939ff9891a30f584bceeba99cdaf6cb2d6319c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:42:14 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那麼雖然說當然他已經在我們國內的法研所的法律領域裡面表現得非常傑出但是我還是希望能夠更上一層樓不過就是從院長您今天的這個簡報裡面我還是沒有看到在人文組作業研究成果裡面有哪一個是屬於法律所的"},{"start":49.994,"end":50.134,"text":"主凡不及備載"},{"start":74.408,"end":87.939,"text":"我看這個歐美所歷史所經濟研究所社會所都有但是很遺憾竟然沒有法律所的重要成果我們只有10分鐘可以報告那我們有33個所中心假如一個一個報的話我們一個所大概只能報10秒鐘"},{"start":89.981,"end":91.102,"text":"您預計未來十年中研院會培育諾貝爾獎得主嗎"},{"start":113.846,"end":133.008,"text":"我們希望說不要以任何特殊的獎項來當個目標我們做學術研究應該以創造知識貢獻社會為目標而不是以拿任何獎項為目標否則的話我們會過得很辛苦"},{"start":133.408,"end":159.653,"text":"是的我非常同意這個院長您的看法但是您知道嗎我們現在國內學界設置了多少獎項對這個部分的話或許中研院之後也可以好好檢討需不需要用獎項來作為譬如說經歷薪資啦各方面的獎補助的一個標準那接下來我想請問一下這個院長您知道這個英國有個Nature這個期刊吧是的英國Nature期刊的公信力為何"},{"start":162.712,"end":185.934,"text":"期刊看看哪一部分的公信力在自然科學領域裡面呢在這個他發表文章都相當有影響力那他有一些被人家詬病的地方但是他也有他的貢獻所以每一個方向並不是說百分之百他就是完全是是大家一致公認但是也是確實是相當好的一個期刊"},{"start":186.254,"end":208.742,"text":"好的 那么我要讲就是英国的Nature期刊它公布的自然指数就是Nature Index其实它就全球的整体研究学术机构的排名那我们看到一个趋势这是本席所做的一些小小的study从2013年到2024年我们可以看到中研院的整体的排名从2013年的136名一直下滑到2024年的340亿名"},{"start":213.664,"end":240.879,"text":"這是大家詬病的地方因為Nature Index它一個很特殊的計算方法一篇paper假如有三個單位掛名就除以3一個單位掛名就除以1中文院近年來就鼓勵跟大學合作特別是我們的研究生每一個都是大學所以幾乎每一篇paper至少有中文院跟一個大學所以我們至少我們的paper的數量就被除以2除以3甚至除以4"},{"start":241.739,"end":265.454,"text":"以这种方式除此之外这个Nature Index又没有把人文放进去谢谢院长因为我已经没有时间了对我想就是说基本上您会认为说就是Nature Index它所做的这个统计数据基本上并不是很符合我们中研院这边的这个发表的情况那么但是我要讲一个事实就是说您看看我们政府给中研院的预算从2018年到2024年是算是一个非常就是每年提高"},{"start":271.617,"end":281.402,"text":"而且它這個成長的比例非常之高我的意思就是說其實中研院每年拿的預算大概就平均差不多130億到150億左右可是在Nature Index的排名數據呢卻是逐步的下滑雖然說是中研院或是其他國內大學可能有很多維持對於這個Nature Index的所做的排名統計不是認為很客觀"},{"start":297.27,"end":300.412,"text":"但是它就是一個事實在全球的排名裡面來看我們可以知道它的確是一個問題我不認為它是一個問題我認為它只是一個指標我們不應該跟著一個商業機構的指標來後面進行如果這樣的話其實我建議中研院根本就退出這個排名根本就不用去參與這個排名我們沒有參加"},{"start":320.606,"end":342.867,"text":"但是说实在话这个其实也是有点这个我认为是太鸵鸟了对不对我们还是要去面对这个全世界的排名我们接下来看一下这个我们知道其实中研院在2013年的时候当时的这个排名都还有大概140几名130几名那么之后是逐年下滑我们我现在"},{"start":343.487,"end":359.343,"text":"拿中研院跟中國科學院香港城市大學跟廣州晉南大學這個是廣州晉南大學大家知道這個是最近我們教育部才還有這個我們行政院宣告這不可以跟廣州晉南大學去"},{"start":360.504,"end":363.166,"text":"就不承認廣州近南大學的學歷可是看看廣州近南大學它在2017年當時的排名是418名到了2024年它的排名已經躍升為130名跟它的經費有關跟它人數有關"},{"start":376.418,"end":398.709,"text":"中研院在2017年的時候當時的排名應該是211名到了2024年排名下跌到341名更不用說我們今天跟中國科學院來比中國科學院從2013年一直到現在還始終都是No.1那我要講就是說他們的機會比我們大多少他們的人數比我們大多少他們的社會上國家的支持比我們大多少"},{"start":399.97,"end":421.847,"text":"我們現在是要馬而跑 又要馬而不吃草 這不可能達成的事情那我們再來看看中研院跟國內大學的排名中研院可以跟台大比吧 中研院拿的預算跟台大是差不多的我們剛才講過 中研院的所有paper都要被除以二除以三而且我們人數少 而且我們的人文科學沒有放在裡面"},{"start":422.848,"end":438.698,"text":"中研院拿的預算的確是相當於台大比太多的大學的預算都拿的多今天我其實只是想要呈現一個事實就是說中研院我認為中研院就是應該要虛心檢討看看有沒有熱情在改進的空間我們看看中研院跟台大的排名就知道不好意思我這邊數字有點錯誤"},{"start":446.042,"end":472.132,"text":"事實上2013年的時候中研院的排名是136然後台大是102你可以看到這次當然整體來講是下滑但是中研院的表現還是沒有台大好我要講的一個事實就是中研院以你們的規模你們的人數你們的經費來講它其實真的是全台灣拿的研究經費最多的單位但是跟其他的大學相比"},{"start":473.684,"end":496.79,"text":"事實上你們的表現沒有特別好所以我認為其實在各個領域裡面還有這個進步的空間但是我們是有進步的空間但請委員了解你從不同的靈境看可以看到不同的長相所以中文院確實是有可以虛心檢討的地方我們確實是應該做得更好但是我想"},{"start":497.31,"end":519.74,"text":"我們不能用任何一個這個數字指標來否定說中研院這幾年的進步我們有更需要的地盤你說中研院你的排名有上升的時候你就會說我認為說這個Nature Index的這個數字基本上是可信的它基本上它的指標是正確的但是因為我們看到這個趨勢是逐漸下滑然後這時候院長又說這個指標不可信不好意思 超時太久了"},{"start":520.28,"end":536.84,"text":"可不可以会后请院长在书面报告给您好不好不好意思对我想在这边话就是最后我还是说我的看法我对中研院是爱之深责之切我希望院长能够跟你们同仁好好的再去思考怎么样能够提"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時42分）謝謝，有請院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝院長。剛剛范雲委員特別講說我之前也對法律所提了部分的預算刪減，我必須說，我作為一個法律學者，我對中研院法律所是愛之深責之切，我希望法律所能夠表現得更好，雖然它在我們國內的法律領域裡面，已經算是表現得非常非常傑出，但是我還是希望能夠更上一層樓，不過從院長您今天的簡報裡面，我還是沒有看到在人文組重要研究成果裡面，有哪一個是屬於法律所的重要研究成果，是您沒有特別關心法律所的重要成果，還是覺得他們的確沒有提出什麼重要的成果？因為時間有限，我就不再細談這件事情，但是我也很希望法律所之後可以再補充你們的重要成果，因為看起來院長並沒有特別……"],["廖院長俊智：是族繁不及備載。"],["翁委員曉玲：是族繁不及備載。對，我看歐美所、歷史所、經濟研究所、社會所都有，但是很遺憾，竟然沒有法律所的重要研究成果。"],["廖院長俊智：我只有10分鐘可以報告，我們有33個所中心，假如一個一個報的話，一個所大概只能報10秒鐘。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，了解。"],["廖院長俊智：但書面報告有。"],["翁委員曉玲：就像我質詢只有4分鐘，所以我真的沒有辦法好好地讓法研所來說一下研究成果。"],["廖院長俊智：書面報告66頁有。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，我後來有看到。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是說在院長您的簡報裡面，似乎就沒有特別提到法研所。","接下來我想要請教院長，您預計未來10年中研院可能會培育出一個諾貝爾獎得主嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我們希望不要以任何特殊獎項來當作目標，我們做學術研究，應該以創造知識、貢獻社會為目標，而不是以任何獎項為目標，否則的話，我們會過得很辛苦。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，我非常同意院長您的看法，但是您知道嗎？現在國內學界設置了多少獎項？這個部分的話，或許中研院之後也可以好好檢討需不需要用獎項來作為激勵薪資或各方面獎補助的標準。","接下來我想請問一下院長，您知道英國有一個Nature期刊吧？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：英國Nature期刊的公信力為何？"],["廖院長俊智：看哪一部分的公信力。"],["翁委員曉玲：在自然科學領域裡面呢？"],["廖院長俊智：它發表的文章都相當有影響力。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["廖院長俊智：它有一些被人家詬病的地方，但是它也有它的貢獻，所以每一個方向並不是百分之百完全被大家一致公認，但是也確實是相當好的一個期刊。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的。那麼我要講的就是，英國的Nature期刊公布的自然指數，就是Nature 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Index的數字基本上是可信的，基本上它的指標是正確的，但是我們看到這個趨勢是逐漸下滑，然後這時候院長又說這個指標……"],["主席：不好意思，超時太久了，可不可以會後請院長再送書面報告給你？好不好？不好意思。"],["翁委員曉玲：在這邊，最後我還是說我的看法，我對中研院是愛之深責之切。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝、謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望院長能夠跟你們的同仁好好地再去思考怎麼樣能夠提升中研院的研究能量，好好表現。"],["廖院長俊智：我想所有所長都在這邊，都聽到了，大家都會努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：不是只有所長，還有其他的自然科學領域也是一樣的，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝、謝謝，謝謝翁委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員，院長請回。","我們接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97129857e7f83404af8e39fb4699fde532611a30f584bceeba99d5dcb3123ad56a9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:41:48 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本席想邀請楊航來 楊總太監"},{"start":21.254,"end":38.74,"text":"總裁好 川普掀起的關稅風暴影響了全球的金融市場對此您也在4月7號提出四大穩定的機制比如說建立場內外的監理機制運用大額結匯及時通報"},{"start":42.222,"end":68.459,"text":"這個來確實掌控資金的進駐等等這四大的方案所以本席要請教剛剛本席聽到您在答詢當中你說這個匯率它市場機制要漲就讓它漲這一句話是不是有但書如果像這麼大的一個風暴這個幾天跌了4000多點這樣子央行的作用是什麼是不是應當要維持穩定"},{"start":71.081,"end":95.415,"text":"我們的匯率啊對啊當然啊我剛剛也是在強調這一點啊那你說他要漲就讓他漲啊不是不是你要說明清楚本期願意讓你說明清楚是的就是說中央銀行的職責呢就是說穩定匯率但是在某種情況之下呢他要反映基本面導致新台幣是升值的時候我們不能去阻止他升值"},{"start":96.015,"end":97.517,"text":"如果說他的這個貶值是因為金融市場的大幅的波動中央銀行也不會讓他貶的太多我們要穩定他我的說法是跟委員的講法是一樣的"},{"start":115.877,"end":143.397,"text":"那所以本下請教總裁現在外資也持續在撤在這樣的情況之下我們除了您宣布的這四大機制之外還有沒有其他因為現在它突然間32%來一個10%90天哇 這個90天就是大家搶先要去談判那我們掛了號那這個也有我們的這個國防會主委說我們是優先的那也有其他的論述"},{"start":144.739,"end":162.156,"text":"所以不管怎麼樣千變萬化那除了這四大機制之外你還有其他的這個備案作為嗎我想是這樣第一個就是說我們的我們有足夠的外存體來維持市場的秩序這是第一個第二個還有還有這個是四大的機制對不對"},{"start":166.28,"end":186.182,"text":"那這樣的話呢就是說因為有些時候我舉一個很簡單的例子就是說我們如果說外資一直出去假設啦就出去然後呢我們就拋匯拋匯我們就賣美元賣美元的時候我們就收進來新台幣那收進來新台幣的時候呢國內的新台幣的市場呢他會緊縮"},{"start":187.748,"end":202.701,"text":"他會緊縮那真的緊縮的時候整個金融市場還是會不穩定所以你整個金融市場還不穩定的說我們的公開市場操作我們還是可以把新台幣的資金再把它釋放出去這個是一個很簡單的例子"},{"start":203.161,"end":227.06,"text":"就是說中央銀行有足夠的能力來維持外匯市場中央銀行有這個足夠的能力來維持我們的本幣跟外幣的流動性好這也是人民希望要聽到的這一個足夠跟這一個準備跟這一個應對我們好好的來維持謝謝繼續本席要請教主計總署主計總署"},{"start":233.404,"end":233.425,"text":"來 請回"},{"start":239.04,"end":257.795,"text":"我們在2月26號的時候我們發布了我們的經濟成長是3.14%那到現在短短的這一兩個禮拜讓我們的產業讓我們各方面大家都繃緊了神經非常的緊張所以這個數據可能是還沒有納入現在這一兩個禮拜的千變萬化"},{"start":263.92,"end":285.799,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下呢不管是我們台幣不斷的重挫或者是新台幣股票不斷的重挫新台幣的貶值呈現資金的外流股匯市的雙重壓力在這樣的也恐怕影響到整個企業的一個投資所以在全球貿易成長放緩"},{"start":286.9,"end":312.911,"text":"而且我們的地緣政治風險又升高在這樣情況之下呢 潛在的風險持續在增加因為我們是以出口導向所以主席講 我們現在所用的經濟預測模式那麼對於這樣的狀態您二月份所宣布的是不是必須要重新的來修正來反映出保守市場的現象請做說明"},{"start":313.611,"end":335.514,"text":"我們大概五月中旬的時候下旬我們會再做一個預測的一個預估然後這個部分也會到時候會請提供給大家來做一個參考就是你五月份會重新再來宣布那也納入近期比如說我們的股會是波動的重大影響以及談判的預定過程那麼內容"},{"start":336.795,"end":362.372,"text":"等方面都把它納入在五月份的時候再宣布這樣就對了因為本席認為您的預測會直接影響到整個政府的施政方向而且會影響到你預算的編列你產業界到底談判之後會怎麼樣那這個都是不可測的所以本席就是建議我們必須要把這些因素納進來作為一個比較正確"},{"start":363.733,"end":372.839,"text":"貼近情境的一個宣布讓大家有所依歸那這個時間點就在五月份是五月中下旬五月下旬的時候好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1061,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時42分）主席，本席想邀請央行。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總裁好。川普掀起的關稅風暴，影響了全球的金融市場，對此，您也在4月7日提出四大穩定的機制，比如建立場內外監理機制，運用大額結匯即時通報系統，來確實掌控資金的進出等四大方案。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要請教，剛剛聽到你在答詢當中說，匯率是由市場機制，要漲就讓它漲。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一句話是不是有但書啊？如果像這麼大的風暴，這幾天跌了四千多點，這樣央行的作用是什麼？是不是應當要維持穩定我們的匯率啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，好。"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也是在強調這一點啊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不然你說要漲就讓它漲。"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我那時候說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要說明清楚，本席願意讓你說明清楚。"],["楊總裁金龍：是的。中央銀行的職責就是穩定匯率，但是在某種情況之下，它要反應基本面，導致新臺幣升值的時候，我們不能去阻止它升值。如果它的貶值是因為金融市場大幅的波動，中央銀行也不會讓它貶得太多，因為我們要穩定它。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！也是要讓它穩定為基礎，我們的想法是如此。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯，我的說法跟委員的想法是一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一樣的，還好。"],["楊總裁金龍：是一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教總裁，現在外資也持續在撤，在這樣的情況之下，除了您宣布的這四大機制之外，還有沒有其他的？因為現在他突然間32%，來一個10%、90天，這90天就是大家搶先要去談判。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們掛了號，國發會主委也說我們是優先的，也有其他的論述。不管怎麼樣千變萬化，除了這四大機制之外，你還有其他的備案、作為嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣，第一個是我們有足夠的外匯存底來維持市場的秩序，這是第一個。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們有足夠。"],["楊總裁金龍：還有這四大機制。因為有些時候，我舉一個很簡單的例子，如果外資一直出去，我們就拋匯、賣美元，賣美元之後，我們收進來新臺幣，收進新臺幣的時候，國內新臺幣的市場會緊縮，市場緊縮之後，整個金融市場還是會不穩定；在整個金融市場還不穩定的時候，我們的公開市場操作還是可以把新臺幣的資金再釋放出去，這是一個很簡單的例子。也就是中央銀行有足夠的能力來維持外匯市場，中央銀行有足夠的能力來維持本幣跟外幣的流動性。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這也是人民希望要聽到的，這一個足夠、這一個準備跟這個應對，我們好好的來維持。謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：繼續本席要請教主計總處。總裁，請回。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，主計總處2月26日發布了我們的經濟成長率是3.14%。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到現在短短這一、兩個禮拜，讓我們的產業各方面大家都繃緊了神經、非常緊張，所以這個數據可能還沒有納入這一、兩個禮拜的千變萬化。在這樣的情況之下，不管是股票不斷的重挫，或是新臺幣的貶值、資金外流壓力浮現，股匯市的雙重壓力，恐怕影響到整個企業的投資，所以全球貿易成長放緩，而且我們的地緣政治風險又升高。在這樣的情況之下，潛在的風險持續增加，因為我們是以出口導向。請問主計長，我們現在所用的經濟預測模式，對於這樣的狀態，您2月所宣布的，是不是必須要重新修正，反映出保守市場的現象？請說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們大概5月中下旬會再預測，到時候會提供給大家參考。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是你5月份會重新再來宣布。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也納入近期股匯市波動的重大影響，以及談判的預定過程等內容都會納入，在5月份再宣布。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，到時候再宣布。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣就對了，因為本席認為您的預測會直接影響到整個政府的施政方向，而且會影響到預算的編列，產業界到底談判之後會怎麼樣，這些都是不可測的。所以本席建議必須把這些因素納進來，作一個比較正確、貼近情境的宣布，讓大家有所依歸。這個時間點就在5月份？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，5月中下旬。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：5月下旬，好，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160093","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160093","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97126abc3378120872caf11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba99ccafdc092bcebbf35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:33:04 - 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謝謝主席那我們是不是有請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":20.785,"end":38.803,"text":"委員好部長這個局勢變化很大啦昨天還不到24小時前我是也是站在這裡啦那是跟部長去說事實上我們在跟美國竟然進入談判那去爭取看能不能暫緩這個32%"},{"start":41.425,"end":62.166,"text":"那部長也說你會努力 那昨天我剛在場還被黃國昌委員當場把你羞辱一下啦但是我想你也是很不急不緩的那大概也是跟他說出 基本上我們行政院包括我們經濟部會持續努力 然後在談判上爭取最好的條件那想不到"},{"start":63.047,"end":81.493,"text":"一個深夜過去川普的改變改變藝術工這個32%進入所謂90天的一個談判期那除了中國125%所以這個代表的一個意義就是說在這段期間我們看到很多在野黨的人竟然在川普32%後"},{"start":83.268,"end":100.585,"text":"他不去講談判當然也有講只是他們不斷的在強調一件事就是說我們要對美國採取報復性的關稅也就是跟著中國做一樣的動作那如果我們當時還真的行政院去附和儘管沒有做只要有附和這樣的話"},{"start":102.026,"end":114.332,"text":"我想這件事可能就嚴重了所以部長所以當時有這麼多人對你們不管是在任何場合在那邊批判然後供你們要採取報復性關稅那我們經濟部有這樣的考慮過嗎"},{"start":116.937,"end":138.028,"text":"報告委員所有的情境都是在我們的掌握之中好的狀況是怎麼樣子那最差的狀況會怎麼樣我們會提供各種情境的分析那麼提供給談判小組他們作為參考這是一個非常大的一個關鍵的部分那我們"},{"start":139.008,"end":150.356,"text":"也了解說這個迫在眉睫的部分就是在昨天的那個時間昨天中午到了這個32%關稅這是最差的狀況對但是我們經過訪談很多的這個業者我們在分來能夠盤出這個輕重緩急來針對我們發現對中小企業以及關鍵的這一些傳統產業可能遭受到的這樣的一個打擊會比較大"},{"start":169.348,"end":183.533,"text":"所以我們也建議這個談判單位應該對這個關稅的談判要盡快讓他們去跟美國談到美國可以接受的這樣的關稅但是我們所做的判斷都是以32%"},{"start":185.154,"end":208.699,"text":"可能很難談下來的這個情境來作為我們第一個考慮就是最壞的打算最壞的打算要對產業的一些協助如果能夠談到這個大家這個美國啊美國希望說對他最有利的這個條件之下我想大家比起去這個整合那對經濟部來講我們"},{"start":211.319,"end":238.072,"text":"當下跟過去跟昨天最大的不一樣是只有在這個內容跟速度上面做一些這個緩和做一些調適但是第一點是沒有改變的就是對這些中小微企業跟這些傳統產業當他們面臨到可能被抽單可能這個被post form這一些這個要件而造成他金融上面的這個困擾"},{"start":238.832,"end":262.077,"text":"這一點部長就是我們昨天在講的嘛怎麼讓協助他們避免他們的商品被延後延後交貨然後墩毀然後增加他們整個外部成本所以這個是讓昨天都有討論所以這段時間我們真的是覺得很遺憾啊怎麼會有在野黨他直接批判說對美國不報復就是對美投降的談話啊或者是"},{"start":263.137,"end":271.584,"text":"甚至在野黨的總統副總統候選人還直接講說以後就是不要再對美國投資"},{"start":273.035,"end":291.729,"text":"我認為這裡的位置都比較離間了所以我們還是要回到跟美國談判的本質就是說我們可能會加碼對美國不管是在能源的一些採購或者是也有講到農產品或者是其他的一個採購但是我想萬本歸宗這一次美國對75個國家他們先用10%的一個關稅"},{"start":296.392,"end":313.902,"text":"唯獨中國例外事實上這個也是一個很強烈的image就是說現在中美的貿易大戰2.0正式開打這個正式開打的就是125%起跳所以這個在125%起跳的一個前提之下最怕的是什麼?是產地"},{"start":317.086,"end":338.963,"text":"現在對於很多可能在中國有投資的生意人來說他們在中國要出貨他們面對的壓力這個125%這個壓力壓力非常的巨大而且我看到今天已經很多新聞都爆出來中國的很多的工廠都已經直接說好先暫時歇業暫時都工程都行動都沒有行善"},{"start":342.205,"end":364.625,"text":"那就是因為他們現在要消去美國 他們一百二十五萬 他們根本不會消錢所以這個時候會有很多投機的人要採取用第三方 比如說他頓入台灣 頓入越南然後銷售到美國 但我們無法管其他國家的事情我們台灣自己這一端一定要控制好所以部長你們有怎樣的一個因應作為嗎"},{"start":365.265,"end":379.782,"text":"我們對違規轉運大概有幾個做法第一個就是加強入貨的監測包括銷台或者銷到美國的第二個加強對業者宣傳畢竟他是我們的國人當然"},{"start":380.202,"end":399.414,"text":"然後第三個建立這個違規業者的名單把這個名單就是公開這個表述第四個如果一旦他還是違規我們裁罰就必須要重演第五運用這個反傾銷的措施大概有這個五點不過我們還是建議這些廠商他們"},{"start":400.694,"end":419.212,"text":"不要回台灣就是說你回台灣會違反這個美國的稀產地的規範這個是美國當今最重要的一個措施但是我們可以協助他們在其他的生產地他們其他都有一些工廠包括他們可能在越南可能在泰國那這些都已經被"},{"start":421.113,"end":443.865,"text":"這個怎麼講,回報這個時拍我有一個事情啦,因為我們看到在野黨有一個法案他們希望在金門變成一個叫做自經區這樣的一個法案,未來很有可能會變成大量息產地的一個地方這是我一個事情,雖然這個法案還沒有通過但是我們要未雨成謀,有這樣的一個法案的存在是,謝謝委員提醒好,那部長可以先回,我再問一個農業的問題"},{"start":453.297,"end":466.182,"text":"這個部長事實上剛剛很多委員都有對你垂詢過了就是說因為現在農業我們如果要開始談的話基本上對農業的衝擊非常的大所以這一次八百億中農業部大概就181要協助這些農民"},{"start":468.183,"end":487.391,"text":"那在未來跟美國的談判事實上我們所宣示的不管是能源不管是我們對農產品尤其美國是很多農產品的一個大宗台灣又幾乎是美國農產品出口的主要國家包括這個加其內台灣是美國的第五大出口國大豆"},{"start":487.851,"end":506.133,"text":"是美國的第七大出口國牛肉是美國的第六大出口國那水果是美國的第四大出口國玉米是美國的第六大出口國小麥也是第六大出口國所以我們可以知道說台灣雖然我們的人口雖然不多"},{"start":507.335,"end":524.873,"text":"可是我們是一個對美國來說是一個購買力很強健的一個國家那所以美國會對我們會去盯著我們的農產品尤其他又對我們的稻米啦對我們的豬肉都直接點名說這個有貿易障礙"},{"start":525.814,"end":549.826,"text":"所以部長你會面對很大的壓力一方面你一定要守護住我們農民的一個權利因為很多事實上農產品就是一個國家要怎麼保護自己的國家這個每個國家都會做包括日本、歐盟事實上剛才說的這個產品標示日本、歐盟也都有在做產品標示台灣不是特例但是這一些措施都被美國視為眼中釘"},{"start":551.4,"end":561.379,"text":"所以部長 我覺得這麼多行會你要做 你是不是跟我們說明一下說你的立場怎樣在未來跟美國展開談判的時候我們站在農業的立場是怎樣"},{"start":562.368,"end":580.285,"text":"我跟委員報告在整個行政院的談判小組其實已經認知到而且也充分的認知農業是一個相對於工業產品是一個非常特殊的產業那農業他肩負了糧食安全的一個非常重要的責任所以未來對於我們現在在後續的關稅談判裡面我們不會輕易的將"},{"start":584.569,"end":605.19,"text":"對國內會產生衝擊的這些產業做輕易的調整那這個部分我想我們會堅守這樣的一個原則因為所有的包括您剛才講的稻米包括雞肉包括豬肉的這個部分其實過往我們主要的進口的部分或者是他們進來的部分是黃小玉最多但是黃小玉是跟我們有互補的"},{"start":606.372,"end":623.148,"text":"那这个部分我想相对单纯但是对我们有冲击的对产业稳定发展有影响的我们一定坚守一个原则我们一定会保护农民的权利为原则去处理好 部长还有一个问题那随产品随产品我们过去有外宣到美国现在它10%"},{"start":625.01,"end":640.406,"text":"就是說雖然32%降為10%但是也是提高所以對水產品現在就有立即的衝擊對所以這部分是不是要對我們這些水產業者是不是要讓他們看看如何獲得因為他馬上他們面對去銷售到美國的稅率就提高了"},{"start":641.006,"end":669.177,"text":"對我剛才我昨天也在在那個前進漁港我們的那個漁業署那邊跟我們的台灣台灣貂的業者做談那其實現在台灣貂本身美國市場最大的美國市場是大陸那台灣大概佔7%雖然說我們外銷是佔79%但是後續我們認為就是跟業者談其實這是一個機會另外是一個機會當中國的水產品不能過去的時候那台灣本身"},{"start":669.617,"end":695.654,"text":"我們怎麼樣快把這一塊市場搶過來透過外銷獲得一個獎勵但是相對的我們的成本也提高啊所以我們要怎麼樣又進攻市場然後又在這個成本上又有利潤這個我想這個就要由我們農業部我們漁業署趕快來輔導我們會持續跟業者聽取業者的建議然後做調整的滾動第一個搶市場第二個讓他們成本是要讓他們可以有利潤的又有競爭力好謝謝"},{"start":699.529,"end":699.995,"text":"好 謝謝蔡少偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":588,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時33分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請郭部長？"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這個局勢變化很大！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：昨天，還不到24小時前，我也是站在這裡與部長討論，既然已經與美國進入談判，希望能爭取暫緩實施32%的關稅，部長也說會努力。此外，昨天你還被黃國昌委員當場羞辱了一下，但你還是不急不緩的對他表示，行政院及經濟部都會持續努力，在談判上爭取最好的條件。沒想到，一個晚上過去之後，川普就改變了，32%的關稅政策進入90天的談判期，除了中國是125%。這件事代表了一個意義，這段期間我們看到許多在野黨人士，在川普提出32%的關稅後竟然不講要談判，即使講了要談判，卻也不斷強調一件事，我們要對美國採取報復性的關稅，也就是跟著中國做一樣的動作。如果當時行政院真的附和，儘管沒有做，只要附和這樣的話，我想這件事可能就嚴重了！部長，當時有這麼多人對你們提出批判，認為你們應該採取報復性關稅，經濟部有這樣考慮過嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，所有的情境都是在我們的掌握之中啦！好的狀況是怎麼樣、最差的狀況又會是怎麼樣，我們會提供各種情境的分析給談判小組作為參考，這是非常大的關鍵部分。我們也了解原本預定昨天中午32%關稅開始生效會是最差的狀況，但是經過訪談許多的業者之後，我們能夠盤點出輕重緩急，發現中小企業及關鍵的傳統產業可能遭受到的打擊會比較大，所以我們也建議談判單位針對關稅的談判要盡快，達成美國也能接受的關稅，但是我們所做的判斷都是以32%可能很難談下來的情境作為第一個考慮。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是最壞的打算。"],["郭部長智輝：以最壞的打算作為考慮。"],["蔡委員易餘：最壞的打算，針對產業的一些協助。"],["郭部長智輝：如果能夠談到美國認為對它最有利的條件之下，我想大家彼此去整合……對經濟部來講，當下與昨天最大的不一樣，只有在內容與速度上做一些緩和、做一些調適，但沒有改變的第一點是針對中小微企業及傳統產業，當他們面臨可能被抽單、可能被postpone等要件而造成他們在金融上的困擾，這點我們沒有……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，也就是我們昨天所講的，如何協助他們避免商品被延後交貨導致囤貨而增加整個外部成本。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上，這些在昨天都做過討論了。因此，這段時間我們真的是覺得很遺憾，怎麼會有在野黨直接講出對美不報復就是對美投降的談話，甚至在野黨的總統、副總統候選人直接說以後不要再對美國投資，我認為這些話都離經了。我們還是應該要回歸與美國談判的本質，可能加碼對美國的投資，無論是對能源的採購、農產品或其他方面的採購。但是萬本歸宗，這次美國對75個國家先採10%的關稅，唯獨中國例外，事實上，這也是一個很強烈的image喔！現在中美的貿易大戰2.0正式開打，這個正式開打就是125%起跳，因此，在125%起跳的前提之下，最怕的是什麼？洗產地！現在對於許多在中國投資的生意人而言，他們從中國出貨要面對125%的壓力，這個壓力非常的巨大，而且我看到今天有很多的新聞報導，中國有許多工廠都已經暫時歇業不再生產，因為無法負擔外銷到美國的125%關稅，這個時候就會有很多投機的人採取第三方產地的方式，譬如遁入臺灣、遁入越南，再銷售到美國。我們無法管其他國家的事情，但我們臺灣自己這一端一定要控制好，部長，你們有什麼樣的因應作為嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對於違規轉運大致有幾個做法，第一個就是加強陸貨的監測，包括銷臺或銷美的部分。第二個是加強對業者宣傳，畢竟他們是我們的國人。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然。"],["郭部長智輝：第三個是建立違規業者的名單，公開表述這些名單。第四個，一旦業者仍然違規，我們的裁罰就必須要從嚴。第五個，運用反傾銷的措施。大致有以上五點，不過，我們還是建議這些廠商不要回臺灣，因為回臺灣會違反美國洗產地的規範，這個是美國當今最重要的一個措施。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上，它很明顯，這是對中國嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們可以協助他們在其他生產地，他們其他都有一些工廠，包括可能在越南、可能在泰國，這些都已經回到10%。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長，我有一個示警，因為我們看到在野黨有一個法案，他們希望金門變成一個自經區，這樣一個法案未來很有可能會變成大量洗產地的一個地方，這是我的一個示警，雖然這個法案還沒有通過，但是我們要未雨綢繆，有這樣一個法案的存在。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長可以先請回。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：我再問一個農業的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，事實上剛剛很多委員都有對你垂詢過了，現在農業我們如果要開始談的話，基本上對農業的衝擊非常的大。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這一次880億中，農業部大概就有180億要協助這些農民。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：在未來跟美國的談判，事實上我們所宣示的，不管是能源，不管是我們對農產品，尤其美國是很多農產品的大宗，臺灣又幾乎是美國農產品出口的主要國家，包括家禽類，臺灣是美國的第五大出口國，大豆是美國的第七大出口國，牛肉是美國的第六大出口國，水果是美國的第四大出口國，玉米是美國的第六大出口國，小麥也是第六大出口國，所以我們可以知道臺灣雖然人口不多，可是對美國來說，我們是一個購買力很強健的國家，因此美國對我們會眼睜睜地盯著我們的農產品。尤其他又對我們的稻米、對我們的豬肉，都直接點名說這個有貿易障礙，所以部長會面對很大的壓力，一方面你一定要守護住我們農民的權利，因為事實上農產品就是一個國家，要怎麼保護自己的國家，這個每個國家都會做，包括日本、歐盟，就像剛才在說的產品標示，日本、歐盟也都有在做產品標示，臺灣不是特例，但是這些措施都被美國視為眼中釘。部長，我覺得你要做很多工作，你是不是簡單說明一下你的立場怎樣？在未來跟美國展開談判的時候，我們站在農業的立場是怎樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，在整個行政院的談判小組，其實已經認知到，而且也充分認知農業相對於工業產品是一個非常特殊的產業，農業肩負了糧食安全的一個非常重要的責任，所以未來我們在後續的關稅談判裡面，我們不會輕易調整對國內會產生衝擊的這些產業，這個部分我想我們會堅守這樣一個原則，因為所有包括您剛才講的稻米、包括雞肉、包括豬肉的部分，其實過往我們主要進口的部分，或者是他們進來的部分是黃小玉最多，但是黃小玉是跟我們有互補的，這個部分我想相對單純。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，這部分我們生產比較少。"],["陳部長駿季：但是對我們有衝擊的，對產業穩定發展有影響的，我們一定堅守一個原則，我們一定會以保護農民權益為原則去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，還有一個問題，就是水產品，水產品我們過去有外銷到美國。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在是10%，雖然是從32%降為10%，但也是提高，所以現在就對水產品有立即的衝擊。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這部分是不是要對我們這些水產業者看要怎麼輔導，因為他們馬上面對的是銷售到美國的稅率提高了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我昨天也在前鎮漁港漁業署那邊跟臺灣鯛業者座談，其實現在臺灣鯛本身，美國市場最大的是大陸，臺灣大概占7%。雖然說我們外銷是占79%，但是跟業者談了，後續我們認為，其實這另外是一個機會，當中國的水產品不能過去的時候，臺灣本身怎樣透過……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們怎麼樣把這一塊市場搶過來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，能夠透過外銷的獎勵，或者消費行銷的部分……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是相對我們的成本也提高啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我們要怎麼樣又進攻市場，然後在成本上又有利潤，這個就要由農業部漁業署趕快輔導這些養殖業者。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會持續聽取業者的建議，然後滾動式調整措施。"],["蔡委員易餘：第一個搶市場，第二個讓他們可以有利潤。"],["陳部長駿季：對，要有競爭力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，要有競爭力。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡召委，謝謝陳部長，謝謝。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請賴瑞隆委員發言"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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市長早市長在去年差不多這個時間我大概也是進來這裡質詢我們少年輔導轉型的這個議題今天我要針對法部部回覆我的書面資料來進一步跟兩位做討論"},{"start":64.479,"end":77.056,"text":"這張圖我相信兩位都很了解要做好少年的輔導轉型我們需要跨部會的全面性的合作當然今天只有法務部我就只針對於我們部內跟署內的業務來討論那下一頁"},{"start":82.601,"end":102.123,"text":"首先我想指出我們逆境社工他的困境為什麼這麼講他說他孤立難遠難以落實他要做的工作現在我們在看接見制度實在是非常的不友善接見的方式不論是視訊或是窗口都無異於"},{"start":102.924,"end":117.555,"text":"第一線社工他在協談跟家庭的一個修復工作所以想問署長現在這四個矯正學校是否有規劃可以進行家庭工作的一個友善場域"},{"start":120.486,"end":145.221,"text":"因為我們四所矯正學校依照那個108課綱跟以往在還沒成立矯正學校的時候不太一樣所以他白天或許要有一些安排如果說有相關的社工可能要事先約定一些時間至於這個接見的場所我想我們四所矯正學校會盡量來配合"},{"start":146.889,"end":169.95,"text":"可是你看 隔著這樣子的話 連人都不見得碰得到可以互動的話 坦白講不是一種好方式我記得在2021年 那個兒權公約第二次國家報告 國際委員來審查的時候他主席Duke就講過說 一定要有一些友善的環境來能夠讓他才可以回歸到家庭去"},{"start":170.41,"end":183.838,"text":"然後呢回歸社會去否則的話這樣的方式根本都甚至韓國都有一些住宿讓家裡在住宿跟孩子相處我們都還達不到這樣可是這樣子一個會面都沒有辦法讓他跟親人有一些互動所以"},{"start":187.262,"end":215.322,"text":"像這樣的我認為是不是請署長這邊提供給我目前的場域跟你的制度規劃跟委員報告我們一般接見跟社工的接見會不太一樣一般的接見是少年的家屬來接見但是社工他可能因為有公務關係我們會另外安排的可是現在民間團體本來就有在做逆境少年的這樣服務他們是會陪同家庭進去我講的是這一塊"},{"start":217.143,"end":235.806,"text":"否則如果署長這邊的話就把這兩套方式你們都提供出來因為我們現在衛福部有在做逆境少年的這樣的一個服務裡面事實上是社工會陪同家庭去可是一樣不能接觸到人的話基本上無助於我覺得未來要歸附到社會我們會後提供"},{"start":236.306,"end":260.438,"text":"好 再麻煩我們的署長另外 我諮詢第一線社工 他們跟我反映矯正學校常常拒絕提供在校的輔導記錄那就要問 次長跟署長這邊 欠缺完整的資訊以後如何有效去協助少年出校的準備因為上次我就講過 去年我就提過最好不是資料轉嫌 要關係轉嫌 要讓他們有接觸"},{"start":262.339,"end":286.754,"text":"未來離開教職人學校的時候我覺得社工才能夠把他們接住否則藥頭比我們更容易接觸少年幫派比我們更容易接觸少年社工反而很難因為如果沒有前期的接觸關係的轉型的話事實上是有困難的所以是不是能夠去做這樣子的一個協助"},{"start":288.962,"end":314.271,"text":"就是能不能提供出資料來各位報告 事實上我們在轉嫌少年要離開我們矯正學校這三個月內我們都進行相關的轉嫌措施他離開我們矯正學校之後我們也要追伏達到一年的時間所以這個制度上是有這當時他機制上也在運作只是說資料上要提供到什麼樣的程度以便事後的追伏我們再請這個矯正學校再看看好 再麻煩次長為什麼我也知道就是說"},{"start":316.532,"end":338.172,"text":"醫兒少全法本來68條就是規定要追蹤一年可是在追蹤一年之後通常雙失的比例就往往激增譬如說失血失業高達到95%這不是我們熱見的畢竟他如果要能夠在這社會生存的話他要就學或者就是他是去就業可是這都所以通常往往"},{"start":340.054,"end":351.593,"text":"會讓這個在做逆境社工的人他們就是會有難為之處啦可能要去考量問題二呢就是在想問署長校正學校歷年來有多少霸凌事件啊你們有沒有統計數據"},{"start":354.264,"end":354.924,"text":"目前是沒有統計數據"},{"start":384.344,"end":402.794,"text":"拿同樣的問題去問你們業務單位所知的確矯正署回答我說沒有辦法統計竟然是因為沒有定義這個我有覺得有點讓我有點錯愕說定義不能夠因為教育部本來也有那個霸凌準則你也可以嘗試用他們的定義"},{"start":404.555,"end":430.785,"text":"可是你去看監察院過去四年內他針對於你們霸凌跟不當管教糾正過至少兩次就已經有再三提及為如實通報的話違反CRC跟欠缺問題處理機制的話缺乏內部監督這都是你們的問題所以部長署長霸凌防治跟處理具體措施就像剛剛署長提的就是掃腳條例"},{"start":432.265,"end":454.38,"text":"那到底何時可以完成啊 從2022年到現在 到現在還在收集資料 為何跟委員報告 少角校條例是在去年的3月我們部裡面已經函報行政院那至於少關所條例 這個都少年部分在今年的2月也函報行政院 在審核中"},{"start":455.12,"end":474.67,"text":"我覺得要進述 因為已經拖了很久了那我再看問題三就是說雖然沒有正式的統計數據我相信我們很多第一線的實務工作者都跟我提到這個我們教政學校的學生普遍存在身心健康的議題我相信署長也相當清楚我知道過去幾年這個議題一直重複的在各種會議當中被討論署內也說要積極強化但可是我感覺到有一些問題"},{"start":485.095,"end":511.957,"text":"什麼樣的問題呢也就是想問的是你們的合作醫院是否都具備有所謂的兒少精神專科醫師甚至也想問的是你們是不是在健康檢查是不是有包含身心評估跟心理痕跡為什麼這樣問上聯合國就有規定就所有入校儲育都應該特別關注到身心議題"},{"start":513.137,"end":526.635,"text":"或是關注在身心議題所以想問一下署長現在目前的健康檢查是不是有包含身心評估跟心理衡鑒還有你的特約醫院 簽約醫院有沒有具備這個兒少精神專科醫師"},{"start":528.697,"end":554.645,"text":"我們千葉醫院一般我們所知道的他一定會有精神科醫師我們也都會引進至於他的精神科醫師他要受有什麼專業訓練他的專業訓練是不是除了成年之外還有包含少年這個應該就是衛福部他們所主管那一般我們的健康檢查應該是還沒有那麼專業"},{"start":555.965,"end":576.894,"text":"到那個身心評估跟心理的橫線這個部分所以醫師是沒有在做囉可是我剛講聯合國又特別提醒說我們所有的入校處遇都應該要特別注意到我們是有一些編制新設人員的編制包括說我們145位從今年開始"},{"start":580.175,"end":608.184,"text":"那個委外城南改為A用還有我們署本部會成立一個少年的少年科增加七位新設人員增加這些新設的資源來保障少年的最佳潛意如果是這樣的話學校端到底要如何落實我們的個別化處理措施所以這也後邊也麻煩你們提供相關的資料那事實上"},{"start":610.871,"end":628.486,"text":"最後大概就是想針對於充實我們的新府特教專業人力的問題我上次也問過了輔導人力的部分我肯定法務部的努力可是特教師的師生比針對這第一線的協助我認為還是有相當不足"},{"start":629.187,"end":655.681,"text":"所以現在矯正署的回覆是說參考高中以下特教班禁用辦法以1比15的目標努力不過署長你可以看到城鎮中學是1比20如果你說你們已經用這個1比15的目標努力那城鎮中學都還要再更加拔鏡那我想問署長既然比照一般學校的師生比那矯正學校能否依據學生狀況來聘用學生助理員"},{"start":657.965,"end":684.685,"text":"來努力喔 也聘主我們的特殊教育教師我們現在的平均特教師是1比15了嘛那將來我們會盡快再把這方面再來補足那可以聘學生助理員嗎聘學生助理員依據學生的狀況聘用學生助理比照一般學校學生助理員在研議中"},{"start":690.684,"end":703.555,"text":"可不可以完善接近制度然後規劃適當場所而且建立出校準備共案的合作機制"},{"start":703.953,"end":723.059,"text":"否則真的幫派跟藥頭比我們更容易接觸孩子那不利於孩子回歸到社區去所以提供我們少年跟家庭的處遇工作的具體支持第二個是不是儘速完成我們的少角條例那還有我們少年矯正學校霸凌防治跟處理的具體措施來完善我們的矯正"},{"start":723.539,"end":746.229,"text":"教育的制度還有我們比較期待的是強化入校的身心評估跟心理衡鑒制度不是剛剛講說你又講成人像我們現在是今天進到那邊的都是兒少所以來衝刺兒少精神專科醫療的資源還有落實個別化處遇還有盡速補齊我們的心腹特教資源的源額還有依照三級輔導體系明確化五類的專輔人員的分工機制"},{"start":750.188,"end":763.575,"text":"所以請這個兩週後是不是可以把這相關的資料回覆給我好的我們就委員的指教我們會積極來努力辦理好那謝謝次長跟署長謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請莊瑞"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時32分）主席，麻煩法務部部長跟矯正署署長。"],["主席：部長請假，現在是次長代理。"],["林委員月琴：好，那就麻煩次長。"],["主席：請次長、署長。"],["林委員月琴：次長及署長早。事實上，在去年差不多這個時間，我也是在這裡質詢過有關少年輔導轉銜的議題，今天我要針對法務部回復我的書面資料來進一步跟兩位做討論。這張圖我相信兩位都很了解，要做好少年的輔導轉銜，我們需要跨部會的全面性合作，今天只有法務部列席，我就只針對部內跟署內的業務來討論。","首先我想指出逆境社工的困境，為什麼這麼講？他們孤立無援，難以落實所要做的工作。另外是接見制度極為不友善，接見的方式不論是視訊或是窗口，都無益於第一線社工協談跟家庭的修復工作。請教署長，這四個矯正學校是否有規劃可以進行家庭工作的友善場域？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，四所矯正學校依照108課綱，跟以往還沒成立矯正學校的時候不太一樣，所以他們在白天或許要有一些安排，如果有相關的社工，可能要事先約定時間，至於接見的場所，我想四所矯正學校會儘量來配合。"],["林委員月琴：可是你看隔成這樣，連人都不見得碰得到而影響互動，坦白講不是一個好方式。我記得在2021年，人權公約第二次國家報告，國際委員來審查的時候，主席Duke就講過一定要有一些友善的環境，孩子才可以回歸到家庭，然後回歸社會，否則這樣的方式根本於他們無益。甚至韓國有一些住宿，讓家裡成員可以住宿跟孩子相處，我們都還達不到，我們這樣子方式的會面更沒有辦法讓孩子跟親人有一些互動。是不是請署長提供給目前你們相關的場域和你們的制度、規劃？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，一般接見跟社工的接見不太一樣，一般的接見是少年的家屬來接見，但是社工可能因為有公務關係，我們會另外安排，會做考量。"],["林委員月琴：現在民間團體本來就有在做逆境少年的服務，他們會陪同家庭進去，我講的是這一塊，否則請署長把這兩套方式都提供給本席，現在衛福部有在做逆境少年服務，事實上社工會陪同家庭去，如果一樣不能接觸到人的話，基本上無助於未來孩子復歸社會。"],["周署長輝煌：會後提供。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩署長。","另外，我諮詢第一線社工，他們跟我反映，矯正學校常常拒絕提供在校的輔導紀錄，請教次長跟署長，欠缺完整的資訊，以後如何有效去協助少年出校的準備？我在去年就提過了，最好不是資料轉銜，而要關係轉銜，讓他們有接觸，未來離開矯正學校時，社工才能夠把他們接住，否則藥頭比我們更容易接觸少年，幫派比我們更容易接觸少年，社工反而很難，因為如果沒有前期的接觸，關係的轉銜事實上是有困難的，所以是不是能做這樣的協助？能不能提供資料？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上在轉銜的部分，少年要離開矯正學校三個月內，我們都會進行相關轉銜措施，他離開矯正學校之後，我們也會追輔達一年時間，所以這個制度上是有，相關的機制也在運作，只是說資料上要提供到什麼樣的程度，以便事後的追輔，我們會後再提供。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩次長。事實上，依兒少權法第六十八條規定本來就要追蹤一年，可是在追蹤一年之後，通常雙失的比例往往激增，失學失業高達到95%，這不是我們樂見的，畢竟他要能夠在社會生存就必須就學或就業，可是事實上都沒有，所以往往讓做逆境社工的人有難為之處，這個可能要去考量。","第二個問題，再請教署長，矯正學校歷年來有多少霸凌事件？你們有沒有統計數據？"],["周署長輝煌：目前沒有統計數據，但是我們目前有一個具體措施，就是矯正機關處理跟防制收容人比如被性侵害、性騷擾或是性霸凌及其他欺凌事件的具體措施，這個部分之外，我們少矯校條例第十一條也規定監督機關要建立一個監督少矯校防制霸凌的機制，這個部分我們正在會辦中。"],["林委員月琴：署長，我拿同樣的問題去問你們業務單位索資，的確矯正署回答我沒有辦法統計，竟然是因為沒有定義，這個讓我有點錯愕，因為教育部本來也有霸凌準則，你也可以嘗試用他們的定義。可是你去看監察院，過去4年內，針對你們霸凌跟不當管教糾正過至少兩次，就已經再三提及諸如未如實通報、違反CRC、欠缺問題處理機制及缺乏內部監督，這都是你們的問題。所以請教次長、署長，霸凌防制跟處理具體措施，像剛剛署長提到的，少矯校條例到底何時可以完成？從2022年到現在還在蒐集資料！為何？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，少矯校條例在去年3月部裡面已經函報行政院。至於少觀所條例，這是少年的部分，在今年2月也函報行政院在審核中。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得要儘速，因為已經拖很久了。","我們再看問題三，雖然沒有正式的統計數據，很多第一線的實務工作者都跟我提到，矯正學校的學生普遍存在身心健康的議題，我相信署長也相當清楚，我知道過去幾年這個議題一直重複的在各種會議當中被討論，署內也說要積極強化，可是我感覺到有一些問題，什麼樣的問題呢？請問你們的合作醫院是否都具備有所謂的兒少精神專科醫師？再者，他們在做健康檢查時，是不是有包含身心評估跟心理衡鑑？為什麼這樣問？聯合國就有規定，所有入校處遇都應該特別關注其身心議題，所以想問署長，目前的健康檢查是不是有包含身心評估跟心理衡鑑？你們的特約醫院、簽約醫院有沒有具備兒少精神專科醫師？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們的簽約醫院，一般我們所知道是一定會有精神科醫師，我們也都會引進，至於精神科醫師要受有什麼專業訓練，其專業訓練是不是除了成年之外還包含少年？這應該是衛福部主管。一般我們做的健康檢查，應該還沒有那麼專業到身心評估跟心理衡鑑的部分。"],["林委員月琴：所以這部分是沒有做？可是我剛剛講聯合國就特別提醒，所有的入校處遇都應該要特別注意到這個部分。"],["周署長輝煌：我們是有對心社人員的編制，包括145位，從今年開始委外承攬改為約用，還有我們署本部會成立一個少年科，增加7位心社人員，增加心社資源以保障少年的最佳權益。"],["林委員月琴：如果是這樣的話，學校端到底要如何落實個別化處遇措施？會後也麻煩你們提供相關的資料。","最後提及充實心輔、特教專業人力的問題，我上次也問過了，針對輔導人力的部分，我肯定法務部的努力，可是特教師的師生比，針對這第一線的協助，我認為還是相當不足。依據矯正署的回復是參考高中以下特教班進用辦法，以1比15的目標努力。不過，署長看誠正中學是1比20，如果你說你們已經用1比15的目標努力，那誠正中學都還要再更加把勁。請教署長，既然比照了一般學校的師生比，那矯正學校能否依據學生狀況來聘用學生助理員？"],["周署長輝煌：我們會來努力聘足特殊教育教師，現在特教師平均是1比15，將來我們會儘快把這方面補足。"],["林委員月琴：可以聘學生助理員嗎？依據學生的狀況聘用學生助理員，比照一般學校，可以嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：在研議中。"],["林委員月琴：一樣希望你們研議之後提供資料給我。以下我有四個目標希望你們要做到：第一，完善接見制度、規劃適當場所，建立出校準備共案合作機制，否則幫派跟藥頭真的比我們更容易接觸孩子，不利於孩子回歸到社區，所以請提供少年跟家庭處遇工作的具體支持。第二，儘速完成少矯條例及少年矯正學校霸凌防制及處理具體措施，以完善少年矯正教育制度。第三，強化入校身心評估與心理衡鑑機制，事實上，今天進到那邊的都是兒少，所以要充實兒少精神專科醫療的資源及落實個別化處遇。第四，儘速補齊心輔、特教師資員額，並依據三級輔導體系，明確化五類專業輔導人員分工機制。請教兩週後是否可以把相關的資料回復給我？"],["周署長輝煌：好的，我們就委員的指教來積極努力辦理。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝次長跟署長。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160091","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712596aeaced14f0107f9600c3f6b437ac21a30f584bceeba9927c4fbec8c3d8b6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:34:07 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那這個部分你們有機會會後提供給本席這邊你們再評估檢單的相關資料但是其實很多的東西可能牽涉到雙方談判他們協助的時候不太希望能夠曝光"},{"start":251.693,"end":269.819,"text":"好的 那就請外交部就一個架構上然後你目前掌握的一個比例讓本席了解好 那第二個部分我們來談一下這個地緣政治那中共最近多次透過環台性的封鎖性的軍事演習對於我們的能源物流跟貿易的動線我們看出了我們的脆弱性"},{"start":270.279,"end":289.645,"text":"那這不僅是軍事的威嚇對經貿有可能產生很大的直接挑戰所以這類情境我們是不是有建立海域封鎖下國際支持與通報網絡第二個部分是我們是不是有主動與美方或其他戰略夥伴建立預警、能源協助跟國際供應鏈重啟機制"},{"start":291.425,"end":308.48,"text":"那畢竟當前貿易戰也有一些灰色的地帶那所以美國外交的不穩定性那也導致歐盟對於之前的這個俄烏戰爭知道目前他們有可能在原烏的這個相關的資源會中斷那也威脅到"},{"start":309.434,"end":324.847,"text":"北約那美國拉近俄羅斯的這樣一個戰略大家都也很憂慮所以我們就歐盟現在開始檢討美制武器的依賴程度那我想我國在這個部分也有很大的這個影響所以在這個部分"},{"start":325.928,"end":346.208,"text":"美國的可預測性現在變動性非常高所以外交部是不是有評估報告來針對未來美國縮減如果美國縮減印太地區的軍事承諾那我們要如何因應第二個部分我們有沒有思考跟歐洲日本還有印度等本地來擴大政治備援的這個網絡來分散我們對單一強權的依附"},{"start":349.352,"end":369.158,"text":"是 報告委員 第一個是說我們現在並沒有感受到美國對於這個區域的安全承諾有任何降低的一個傾向可是我想我們的這個感覺是非常的直接喔你們沒有感受到不是說沒有感受到 包括我們對於像這個美國國防部長 新任國防部長他在這個"},{"start":370.678,"end":396.868,"text":"就任之後第一趟的這個亞洲行第一次的海外訪問就是到亞洲到亞洲的時候拜訪了我們北邊跟南邊重要的這個安全的這個夥伴菲律賓跟日本那我想說展現出來的一個態勢是說美國依然堅定的維護它在這個地方對於有盟的這個安全承諾以及它對於台海的和平穩定的一個重視這是我們現在感受到的一個狀況好的 謝謝市長當然我們會在這個聲明"},{"start":398.348,"end":423.833,"text":"更重要的是說我們自己防衛自己的決心以及對國防持續的投資我想這個才是我們安全最重要的一個方案是的 本席在這邊一直提醒那戰略夥伴的一個網絡的支持是本席今天一直提醒的一個重點有 這個都有在進行好的 所以我們的外交支持不是只有口號沒有很重要的是要實質的航運、能源跟市場接替的方案這個我請外交部跟相關的部會一定要主動的去做一些處理"},{"start":425.013,"end":450.709,"text":"那我最後這邊不用問的啦但我還是提醒南非日前要求我們牽管的這個事件那代表我們在外交站這個部分有需要再強力的去做一些處理那第二個部分是我們知道緬甸的地震讓外交部如何很快的來掌握災情提供人道的協助那也考慮到在這也關係到我們的責任關係人的國際能見度所以提供給您參考"},{"start":451.63,"end":476.708,"text":"第三個部分是新加坡國安統籌的部長公開表示中美如果要避免衝突必須要先解決台灣的問題而且這樣的言論一直暫步到東協的相關國家那我們有沒有政策來準備面對區域國家對台灣議題國際化建區保守的趨勢這個是不是會後可以給本席一個"},{"start":477.168,"end":503.337,"text":"回應雖然說我們的感覺並不是這個樣子包括新加坡的如果外交部的感覺不是這樣是不是針對本席這邊所提到的問題然後在會後給本席相關的回應如果你們的感覺跟本席不一樣最後我要提醒的是我們必須要在風險來臨之前確定制度的保障法律的框架跟利益的連結主動佈局快速應變"},{"start":508.338,"end":521.983,"text":"主席我最後可不可以做一個宣告這個跟你我都有很直接的關係因為他這個議題是很突然當然跟今天的委員會不是那麼的直接本席要為台東來發聲尤其是東海岸"},{"start":522.563,"end":548.03,"text":"那本席要表達一個立場要求立即阻止台東海岸離岸風電的開發我們不是反對再生能源但是我們堅決反對不顧地方意見未經共識然後就要插滿近60座大型風機的粗暴開發台東海岸是全台很美麗的最純淨的一段海岸如果被這些大型的機具風機來遮蔽我們還認得出來是台東嗎"},{"start":551.511,"end":577.258,"text":"好 所以根據目前業者的規劃風機可能設置在學校的附近它會破壞景觀最重要的是它關係到居民的健康與安全低頻的噪音 電磁輻射對我們的孩子 對長輩 對大家對整個社區都是潛在的風險我們不能被模糊的數據跟空泛的保證來說服台東人有權決定自己家園的命運"},{"start":579.65,"end":582.459,"text":"好 謝謝李千玺委員上台執行 接下來由"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時34分）謝謝主席！請外交部陳次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：府院同仁、次長好。整個國際局勢現在在快速的變動，美國對中國採取了高關稅跟戰略圍堵的政策，而且擴大了對等關稅到其他的經濟體，臺灣作為出口導向經濟面的這個部分遭受到直接的衝擊，這是第一個。第二個是共軍頻繁的演練也封鎖了臺海的周邊，暴露我們能源跟物流體系的脆弱。第三個是川普主義的回歸，美國外交政策不確定性就上升了，在這個時候，歐盟也開始思索對美國的依賴，那我們更需要謹慎的因應。我今天的質詢想聚焦在外交部如何強化對美的溝通及推動跟美國FTA的進程，還有針對全球政經風險，我們有沒有必要重新布局外交經貿戰略，來確保我們的利益跟經貿的安全。","次長也知道，整個國際局勢的權力在重組，然後規則也在重建，在川普的強勢回歸下，美國再次走向貿易保護主義跟單邊主義的路線，全球經貿近來的秩序大亂，臺灣在對美經貿政策、外交安全跟供應鏈布局上，現在面臨很大的挑戰，相形之下你們的角色非常重要，也因為美中戰略競合的態勢一直持續，美國對中國及其全球貿易網絡的圍堵也外溢影響到臺灣，所以32%的關稅引起我們很大的震撼，出口導向經濟的核心利益直接被衝擊，當然昨天已經做出一些調整，但是很多地方還是值得檢討。","現在的架構是第一個臺灣還沒有跟美國簽訂自由貿易協定，第二個是21世紀貿易倡議到現在也只有制度性的對話跟初步章節的安排，沒有實質的保障，那我們如何來強化臺美的經貿關係，快速推動FTA的進程？本席這邊的問題是，如果川普繼續落實他所有對美國課稅者皆將遭反制的稅則邏輯，臺灣作為順差來源國的波及影響可能會是長時間的，那外交部與駐美代表處現階段跟美國國會、白宮幕僚和產業界整個的溝通計畫跟情形的評估如何？是不是可以請教次長？"],["陳次長明祺：傳統上我們的美處跟美國的國會議員都保持著非常良好的關係，這一次我們跟美國的談判也透過很多友我的參議員眾議員……"],["林委員倩綺：剛剛講的是國會、白宮幕僚、產業界。"],["陳次長明祺：白宮幕僚的方面，我們當然也是透過正式的管道跟各階的官員能夠接觸，現在我們跟美國的USTR包括美國的財政部以及美國的商務部都已經取得聯繫，就好像委員在媒體上面看到的，我們已經掛號成功，我想這就是我們對美工作的一個成果。至於外圍的智庫方面，我們希望能夠去形塑他們對於臺灣經濟發展正確的認識，同時也要讓他們知道臺灣希望用這一次的機會做整個經濟體質上的調整……"],["林委員倩綺：所以對美國白宮的幕僚，你們現在也有相關的管道？"],["陳次長明祺：是，沒有錯，我們在他們各階層的幕僚都有。"],["林委員倩綺：OK，產業界的部分呢？"],["陳次長明祺：產業界的部分，以我們跟美國產業緊密結合的程度，我們當然也動員我們在產業界的人脈……"],["林委員倩綺：在這個部分，你們有沒有機會於會後提供給本席你們再評估的一個簡單的相關資料？"],["陳次長明祺：好，我們之後再來做，但是其實很多的東西可能牽涉到雙方談判，他們協助的時候不太希望曝光。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，有一些機密性的東西，請外交部就架構上你們目前掌握的一個比例讓本席瞭解。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員倩綺：其次我們來談一下地緣政治，中共最近多次透過環臺封鎖性的軍事演習，對於我們的能源、物流跟貿易的動線，我們看出了我們的脆弱性，這不僅是軍事的威嚇，對經貿也有可能產生很大的直接挑戰，在這類情境下，我們是不是有建立海域封鎖下的國際支持與通報網絡？我們是不是有主動與美方或其他戰略夥伴建立預警、能源協助跟國際供應鏈重啟機制？畢竟當前貿易戰也有一些灰色的地帶，美國外交的不穩定性導致他們有可能在援烏的相關資源會中斷，也威脅到北約，對美國拉近俄羅斯這樣的戰略，大家也都很憂慮，歐盟現在開始檢討美製武器的依賴程度，我想我國在這個部分也有很大的影響，所以在這個部分，美國的可預測性現在變動性非常高，外交部是不是有評估報告，針對未來美國如果縮減印太地區的軍事承諾，我們要如何因應？再者，我們有沒有思考跟歐洲、日本還有印度等地擴大政治備援的網絡，以分散我們對單一強權的依附？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，第一個是我們現在並沒有感受到美國對於這個區域的安全承諾有任何降低的傾向……"],["林委員倩綺：可是我們的感覺是非常的直接喔！你們沒有感受到？"],["陳次長明祺：不是說沒有感受到，美國新任國防部長在就任之後第一次的海外訪問就是到亞洲，拜訪了我們北邊跟南邊重要的安全夥伴─菲律賓跟日本，我想這個展現出來的一個態勢是美國依然堅定的維護他在這個地方對於友盟的安全承諾以及對於臺海和平穩定的重視，這是我們現在感受到的一個狀況。當然在這個層面，更重要的是我們自己防衛自己的決心以及對於國防的持續投資，我想這個才是我們安全最重要的一個保障。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝次長。本席在這邊一直提醒，戰略夥伴的網絡支持是本席今天一直提醒的一個重點。"],["陳次長明祺：有，這個都有在進行。"],["林委員倩綺：所以我們的外交支持不是只有口號喔！很重要的是要有實質的航運、能源跟市場接替的方案，所以我請外交部跟相關的部會一定要主動的去做一些處理。"],["陳次長明祺：是，感謝委員，我們一定來……"],["林委員倩綺：最後一點不是質詢只是做個提醒，南非日前要求我們遷館這個事件，代表我們在外交戰這個部分有需要再強力的去做一些處理。其次是緬甸的地震，我們外交部如何很快的掌握災情、提供人道協助，這也關係到我們「責任利害關係人」的國際能見度，所以提供給您參考。再來是新加坡國安統籌部長公開表示中美如果要避免衝突，必須要先解決臺灣的問題，而且這樣的言論一直散布到東協相關國家，請問我們有沒有政策來準備面對區域國家對臺灣議題國際化漸趨保守的趨勢？這部分是不是可以在會後給本席一個回應？"],["陳次長明祺：雖然說我們的感覺並不是這個樣子，包括這個新加坡的……"],["林委員倩綺：如果外交部的感覺不是這樣，是不是可以針對本席這邊提到的問題，在會後給本席相關的回應？如果你們的感覺跟本席不一樣。"],["陳次長明祺：當然。"],["林委員倩綺：最後我要提醒外交部的是，我們必須要在風險來臨之前，確定制度的保障、法律的框架跟利益的連結，主動布局、快速應變。好嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝委員的提示。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。"],["林委員倩綺：主席，我最後可不可以作一個宣告？這個跟你我都有很直接的關係，因為這個議題是很突然，當然跟今天委員會的主題不是那麼的直接有關。本席要為臺東來發聲，尤其是東海岸。本席要表達一個立場，要求立即阻止臺東海岸離岸風電的開發，我們不是反對再生能源，但是我們堅決反對不顧地方意見、未經共識然後就要插滿近60座大型風機的粗暴開發。臺東海岸是全臺很美麗的、最純淨的一段海岸，如果被這些大型的機具─風機來遮蔽，我們還認得出來是臺東嗎？根據目前業者的規劃，風機可能設置在學校的附近，它會破壞景觀，最重要的是它關係到居民的健康與安全，低頻的噪音、電池、輻射，對我們的孩子、長輩、大家、整個社區都是潛在的風險，我們不能被模糊的數據跟空泛的保證來說服，臺東人有權決定自己家園的命運！謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員上台質詢。","接下來由林楚茵委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160090","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712ec81f17ac2fd43c7f179c558939ff9891a30f584bceeba996cf135525ed714a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:33:26 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范委員早那個院長早安那首先肯定我們院長在那個預算期間就是努力的為中研院預算被動山發聲我想就是您可以看到其實我們全國人民是非常支持中研院的那只是很不幸在這個過程中帶領煽動預算的居然是我們中研院出身的民眾黨的黃國昌立委那當時我個人也非常的努力就是"},{"start":42.525,"end":46.908,"text":"為中研院發聲因為他顯然當時不知道他的統刪就把中研院包進去然後還說他沒有針對中研院那我想這個過程非常的遺憾那當然就是我之前還大概了解一下中研院被煽動的情況剛剛很多委員都講過我就不再重複"},{"start":61.776,"end":75.23,"text":"我們翁教授也在場希望今天也可以特別法律所也可以好好的講一下他的山洞到底對法律所有怎麼樣的影響非常遺憾都是學界同仁帶領山洞中研院的預算今天"},{"start":77.692,"end":81.937,"text":"除了可以了解我蠻認同剛剛我們趙薇講的就是藍白偉就是說主動殺然後後來又主動說你們趕快來解凍因為每個解凍報告中英如果寫不好到時候也會被修理本來就是需要"},{"start":93.269,"end":117.844,"text":"而且我相信眾議院的嚴謹程度絕對不會隨便回應的因為每一個委員的要求不一樣這部分我非常認同剛剛的召委的回應教文委員沒有辦法在自己的黨團去護衛自己的預算最後來這邊說教文都是不分黨派支持我覺得從民眾角度來看無法理解今天他們的說辭我今天想要針對"},{"start":119.185,"end":125.314,"text":"我的預算案裡面也有相關的要求就是大型學術會議應該要落實無障礙配套這個措施那我想院長要關切的議題很多那這題特別希望院長要特別的關心那為什麼我這樣講"},{"start":135.208,"end":151.147,"text":"那其實呢我過去也不夠了解這個大型會議到底無障礙要做哪些會以為說就是空間無障礙那我就是去年代表就是民進黨去參加美國民主黨的全國代表大會上"},{"start":152.067,"end":165.438,"text":"就看到現在一個大型會議的無障礙以他參與的人數的部分也讓院長您了解他真的做得非常的細緻從你落地搭飛機到場就是輪椅族嬰兒車的優先然後全程都有無障礙的接駁巴士現場機場甚至還有輪椅維修服務如果在旅行的過程中輪椅出事的話那更不用講就是手語翻譯我們坐在那兒在哪個角度都看得到"},{"start":180.689,"end":195.392,"text":"即時的字幕現在也因為有AI也變得非常的容易甚至還有感官配套提供給感官敏感者包含降噪耳機還會提醒你不要用強烈的香水因為有一些感官敏感者"},{"start":196.053,"end":218.584,"text":"那這些部分呢我覺得非常的重要那我也要特別提一下那大家知道就是民進黨之前我們不分區的候選人陳俊翰律師他的研究就是國際人權身心障礙政策那他過世前其實就在中研院的法律所擔任博士後研究員"},{"start":219.404,"end":235.423,"text":"那我們可以想像他今天在中研院法律所如果待得更久的話他要參加國際會議的時候中研院的國際會議有沒有提供就是讓他能夠跟其他人一樣平等參與的那我們知道他的母親"},{"start":237.064,"end":243.908,"text":"謝繼珍女士提供了她非常多超越政府補助的個人的協助可是如果陳俊漢律師還在的話他想要參與台時所的研究國際會議法律所的國際會議"},{"start":251.972,"end":275.913,"text":"那他有沒有辦法得到一個平等的參與權那這是我想用這個部分來請命那我請辦公室研究了一下我們發現英美大學澳洲學術計畫那更不用講聯合國都有無障礙會遇指南非常的重視身心障礙像我們陳俊翰律師那還有包含懷孕者親子高敏感等多元的面向"},{"start":276.633,"end":297.097,"text":"那這部分其實在網路上稍微查一下都可以看到非常完整的會議指南所以我有一個就是預算的相關的部分我這邊再舉例來講那它裡面包含就是無障礙廁所不羈乳室那這不羈乳室其實中研院早就我們過去婦女團就要求就已經有做到了"},{"start":298.798,"end":321.117,"text":"優先車位還有提供電子文件大字幕手語翻譯那當然就是托育的服務等等也會考量交通城鄉差距盡可能的提供接駁或者是線上會議等所以你可以看到他是鼓勵更多人都能夠平等的參與學術的活動那我今天想問就是說院長您覺得中研院"},{"start":321.778,"end":327.392,"text":"作為國家級的研究機構是否應該加強無障礙會議的基本規範呢是"},{"start":330.407,"end":357.074,"text":"您很認同是那再來我就想跟您對話一下就是我之前提出的預算案那中雲有給我一個初步的回應說你們已經做到的部分第一個你們有喊轉衛福部的無障礙會議指示指引給轄下單位就是在座的各位的各所所長應該都有看到這個公文那你們說有部分大型會議有調查並提供無障礙服務"},{"start":358.254,"end":368.445,"text":"我覺得這是一個很好的開始那之前我的預算案就是你們有做到這個部分可是我今天想再往前走一步因為我剛以陳俊翰律師為例他不會只參加不分大型會議是應該要以院的層級落實無障礙的措施針對不同規模的會議訂定一個分級的標準"},{"start":381.918,"end":396.03,"text":"譬如說如果人很少的會議那也許是調查與會者基本的需求等等那為什麼我對中研院有這個要求因為我覺得中研院有這麼多的人才如果你們能做出來其實其他的大學甚至國科會他才能夠跟你們學習"},{"start":399.153,"end":420.244,"text":"所以今天因為時間剩下的不多所以今天想請院長能不能夠參考國外的案例我剛剛講的是請我們辦公室的團隊研究的那已經有這麼多的會議指標了訂定符合國際標準的無障礙和共融會議的辦理原則然後開始試辦呢"},{"start":423.595,"end":452.538,"text":"我們朝這方向努力好 朝這方向努力那院長您覺得大概多少的時間能夠就是了解然後訂出然後開始試辦呢了解跟訂出比較容易那真正開始試辦那可能要看這個實際的經費允許狀況那跟實際的需求所以這方面我們會了解之後才開始做"},{"start":453.018,"end":480.397,"text":"那了解大概需要多少時間呢譬如說就給我一個初步報告的部分先就了解然後試辦的話可以晚一點沒關係總務處處長報告應該是一個月內就可以把它了解然後給一個初步的說明給委員好 那就希望是總務處這個事情不應該再丟給各所去做因為總務處應該就有這個研究能力因為我認識中研院很多學者他們會覺得我的質詢就增加了他們的工作量是 我們會同一地地讓各個單位他們參與意見"},{"start":482.819,"end":505.602,"text":"好那這樣非常好我相信那個總務處有這個研究能力那試辦的部分是不是之後也一併給我一個報告因為等到你們知道那個原則之後應該就知道比如說我是一年內還是甚至要兩年內才能開始試辦好不好我們是要給你們合理的那我相信你們做得到的話可以帶領我們全國的各級學術會議未來到其他型的會議都能夠做到那陳俊翰律師"},{"start":506.423,"end":518.176,"text":"那他走的時候法律所還特別發聲明感念他的貢獻那我相信這個貢獻不會只是感念應該要落實在具體的政策跟作為中好嗎好 謝謝好 那謝謝院長謝謝好 謝謝范雲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時33分）謝謝召委。有請院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：范委員早。"],["范委員雲：院長早安。首先肯定院長在預算期間努力地為中研院預算被凍刪發聲，您可以看到，其實我們全國人民是非常支持中研院的，只是很不幸的，在這個過程中帶領刪凍預算的居然是我們中研院出身的民眾黨黃國昌立委，當時我個人也非常努力為中研院發聲，因為他顯然當時不知道他的統刪就把中研院包進去，然後還說他沒有針對中研院，我想這個過程非常遺憾。我之前有大概瞭解一下中研院被刪凍的計畫，很多委員都講過，就不再重複，翁教授也在場，希望今天法律所也可以特別好好地講一下他的刪凍到底對法律所有怎麼樣的影響。非常遺憾，都是學界同仁帶領刪凍中研院的預算。今天除了可以瞭解，我滿認同剛剛我們召委講的，就是藍白委主動殺，然後後來又主動說你們趕快來解凍，因為每一個解凍報告中研院如果寫不好，到時候也會被修理，本來就是需要時間，而且我相信中研院的嚴謹程度絕對不會是隨便回應的，因為每一個委員的要求不一樣，這部分我非常認同剛剛召委的回應，教文委員沒有辦法在自己的黨團去護衛自己的預算，最後來這邊說教文都是不分黨派支持，我覺得從民眾角度來看，無法理解今天他們的說詞。","我今天想要針對我在預算案裡面也有相關的要求，就是大型學術會議應該要落實無障礙配套措施，我想院長要關切的議題很多，對於這議題，我特別希望院長要特別地關心，為什麼我這樣講？其實我過去也不夠了解這個大型會議的無障礙到底要做哪些，會以為就是空間無障礙措施，我去年代表民進黨參加美國民主黨的全國代表大會，在大會上看到一個大型的無障礙措施，也讓院長您瞭解，以參與人數來說，它真的做得非常細緻，從落地、搭飛機、到場，就是輪椅族、嬰兒車優先，然後全程都有無障礙的接駁巴士，機場甚至還有輪椅維修服務，如果在旅行的過程中，輪椅出事的話；那更不用講，就是手語翻譯，我們坐在那裡，不管在哪個角度，都看得到即時字幕，現在也因為有AI，也變得非常容易，甚至還有感官配套，提供給感官敏感者包含降噪耳機，還會提醒你不要用強烈的香水，因為有一些感官敏感者。這些部分我覺得非常重要。","我也要特別提一下，大家知道，民進黨之前提名的不分區立委候選人陳俊翰律師，他研究的就是國際人權身心障礙政策，他過世前其實就在中研院的法律所擔任博士後研究員，我們可以想像，他在中研院法律所如果待得更久的話，他要參加國際會議的時候，中研院的國際會議有沒有提供讓他能夠跟其他人一樣平等參與的環境？我們知道，他的母親謝季珍女士提供了他非常多超越政府補助的個人協助，可是如果陳俊翰律師還在的話，他想要參與臺史所的研究國際會議、法律所的國際會議，他有沒有辦法得到一個平等的參與權？我想用這個部分來請命。","我請辦公室研究了一下，我們發現英美大學、澳洲學術計畫都有無障礙會議指南，非常重視身心障礙人士的權益，更不用講聯合國，像陳俊翰律師，還有包含懷孕者、親子、高敏感等多元的面向，關於這部分，其實在網路上稍微查一下，都可以看到非常完整的會議指南，所以我有一個建議，就是預算相關的部分。我再舉例來講，這裡面包含無障礙廁所、哺集乳室，而哺集乳室，其實中研院早就在過去應婦女團體的要求，已經做到了；還有優先車位，還有提供電子文件、大字幕、手語翻譯，當然還有托育的服務等等，也會考量交通城鄉差距，儘可能提供接駁或線上會議等，所以你可以看到，它是鼓勵更多人都能夠平等地參與學術的活動，那我今天想問院長，您覺得中研院作為國家級的研究機構，是否應該加強無障礙會議的基本規範？"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["范委員雲：您很認同，是嗎？","好，再來，我就想跟您對話一下，就是我之前提出的預算案，中研院有給我一個初步的回應，說你們已經做到的部分，第一個，你們有函轉衛福部的無障礙會議指引給轄下單位，在座的各所所長應該都有看到這個公文，你們說有部分大型會議有調查，並提供無障礙服務，我覺得這是一個很好的開始，之前我的預算案就是你們有做到這個部分，可是我今天想再往前走一步，我剛以陳俊翰律師為例，他不會只參加部分大型會議，應該要以院的層級落實無障礙措施，針對不同規模的會議，訂定一個分級的標準，譬如說，如果人很少的會議，也許是調查與會者基本的需求等等。為什麼我對中研院有這個要求？因為我覺得中研院有這麼多的人才，如果你們能做出來，其實其他的大學，甚至國科會，才能夠跟你們學習。因為時間剩下的不多，所以今天想請院長，我剛剛講的是請我們辦公室的團隊研究的，已經有這麼多的會議指標，院長能不能夠參考國外的案例，訂定符合國際標準的無障礙和共融會議的辦理原則，然後開始試辦呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我們朝這個方向努力。"],["范委員雲：好，朝這方向努力。院長您覺得大概多少的時間能夠瞭解，然後訂出辦理原則，然後開始試辦呢？"],["廖院長俊智：瞭解跟訂出原則比較容易，真正開始試辦，可能要看實際的經費允許狀況跟實際的需求，所以這方面我們會瞭解之後才開始做。"],["范委員雲：好，那瞭解大概需要多少時間呢？譬如說，先就瞭解的部分給我一個初步報告，然後試辦的部分可以晚一點，沒關係。"],["張處長剛維：總務處處長報告，應該是一個月內就可以瞭解，然後有一個初步的說明給委員參考。"],["范委員雲：好，希望是總務處來做，這個事情不應該再丟給各所去做，因為總務處應該就有這個研究能力，我認識中研院很多學者，他們會覺得我的質詢增加了他們的工作量。"],["張處長剛維：是。我們統一訂定以後會讓各個單位參與意見。"],["范委員雲：好，這樣非常好，我相信總務處有這個研究能力。","試辦的部分是不是之後也一併給我一個報告？因為等到你們知道那個原則之後，應該就知道是1年內還是2年內才能開始試辦，好不好？我們是要給你們合理的，那我相信你們做得到的話，可以帶領我們全國的各級學術會議，未來到其他型的會議都能夠做到。陳俊翰律師走的時候，法律所還特別發聲明，感念他的貢獻，我相信對他的貢獻不會只是感念，應該要落實在具體的政策跟作為中，好嗎？"],["張處長剛維：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝院長。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，院長請回。","我們接下來請翁曉玲委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712d151ba5495119b0d39fb4699fde532611a30f584bceeba9978b37549b5781d025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:29:49 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央行那時候你們是真的覺得"},{"start":115.399,"end":121.526,"text":"如果說因為他現在有給90天如果沒有你們現在還是覺得當初回到當初那時候是不是實質影響衝擊有限32%會有限嗎"},{"start":123.991,"end":148.321,"text":"總裁你所謂的三十二八就是原來他宣布現在是暫緩了不是說沒有就三十二八這個對等關稅你們當初在這之前你們的預判都是影響有限我們那時候你們是不是全是預判失準我想就是說這個判斷事實上我總覺得連美國他本身第一個連川普總統他也沒有想到就是說他的這個措施下去會導致"},{"start":149.682,"end":163.197,"text":"他沒有想到他的這個措施呢就是說大家都沒有想到我的意思是說那我們這些部位首長不管是央行還有農委會幾乎全球的主管機關都沒有想到"},{"start":170.145,"end":195.435,"text":"但是我們是不是也太過大意?因為上個禮拜民進黨委員還說這個根本不太重要你如果說我們都會大意的話川普在實施之前他都這麼說華爾街不會有問題但是呢隔天立實施的時候華爾街大跌而且連續跌了好幾跌我的意思是要跟大家提醒幸好今天有這個時間我也跟委員報告"},{"start":200.077,"end":209.884,"text":"事實上連費的他也沒有想到現在就說他這個不合理的公式大家都認為是不合理應該是都認為這個不合理他這種什麼算法我們根本是因為互補事實上我們的關稅財政部也在這裡我們跟他的關稅我們是6.5他們是3.3差距才3%而已沒有事實上所謂的什麼64%對不對這個是要讓百姓知道沒錯吧財政部關稅你們在那個了"},{"start":227.561,"end":252.362,"text":"是的委員也就是說在上一次的專案報告裡面財政部的報告是針對有關我們跟美國的相關的一些關稅的關稅的稅率的一個比較以及還有進出客戶數據的分析但是我們並沒有說影響有限我們裡面就是說我們會密切的關注這個部分所以你們有注意那沒關係現在既然有90天我很高興有這個90天"},{"start":254.884,"end":261.768,"text":"有這個條件我們現在還是要往後看看怎麼樣幫助我們的產業實際解決問題才是重點現在90天後要怎麼樣來解決這個危機我們來看一下他的要求是什麼經濟部、農業部有沒有做好相關的評估還有我們現在可以做什麼我想請問財政部有什麼想法"},{"start":276.917,"end":292.455,"text":"比如說對於零關稅總統說零關稅吧那比如說如果真的零關稅那汽車這個部分是不是從零關稅開始談起跟委員報告我想總統已經提過就是我們會有組成一個所謂的談判的一個小組會由政府院長領軍"},{"start":293.669,"end":320.568,"text":"那在談判小組都一直在模擬如果談判官要達成他的目的嘛他有美國汽車產業嘛對 各種方案那對於就是說你們有沒有做影響評估對國內的產業的影響會有產業主管你們做了評估了沒有我們在這裡要求汽車這個降稅已經要求很久了也可以幫助國內的那降稅的部分會對產業的一個影響你們做了評估了沒有是由經濟部跟經濟部來做評估所以這經濟部是喔 汽車產業的影響農業部也上來一下"},{"start":322.967,"end":337.603,"text":"還有農業部的部分 到時候如果零關稅 農業部的杜次長請來 經濟部你先回答就是說 如果汽車零關稅 到時候適用WPO是不是全部一體適用 對汽車產業的影響有沒有做過那你們可不可能這樣做"},{"start":338.564,"end":342.787,"text":"我們當然會為國內的汽車產業爭取最大的權利這個零關稅確實對國內的產業是有一些衝擊的當然我們會在對美談判的時候爭取最大的權利"},{"start":356.196,"end":372.399,"text":"總統說要從零關稅談起啊所以有可能啦所以我們還是希望能夠爭取最大的不可能啦美國不會接受啊汽車產業是他重要的產業啊我想請問農業部到時候零關稅農民受到農牧業都受到很大的衝擊你知道吧"},{"start":373.399,"end":387.466,"text":"那你們可以接受嗎從零開始談但不代表全部都要是零那如果美國就這樣要求你們會接受嗎我想對我們來講重要的產品一定要保護著所以你們不會接受那總統要零關稅啊如果美國就這樣要求咧"},{"start":388.566,"end":407.714,"text":"從林冠慧開始談不代表全部都要變成如果美國就這樣要求咧不然30天後要給你32%我們一定會拒以利爭因為拒以利爭沒有他就是要32%重要的農產品還是要還是有他所以你們也不支持嘛那你們都不支持在總統喔來央行那請問這個大家很多財經專家說這就是美債嘛你剛也提到了嘛"},{"start":408.194,"end":423.223,"text":"那就是為了你覺得說你會不會同意放手讓那現在已經升值了你會不會同意放手升值或者同意讓持有美債從一年短期債變成長期債甚至無期債我跟委員報告就是說中央銀行從來沒有就是說"},{"start":424.744,"end":429.585,"text":"新台幣不能升值或是新台幣不能貶值我們總覺得這個匯率是由市場來決定他要升值就要讓他升值啊中央銀行的角色只能就是說讓新台幣的匯率它的波動幅度不要太大怎麼波動幅度不會太大"},{"start":449.85,"end":478.03,"text":"一天降兩千 一天跌兩千多點 一天升一千多點這個外資進出不會波動太大對啦 不會 還是會現在的中央銀行的匯率呢它現在的波動弧度是比以前還大的但是你也不會去控制啦 因為這等於是非關稅的壁壘所以你那個資金的匯出進來出去有些時候都是很短時間都是很巨額的"},{"start":478.63,"end":501.217,"text":"那你一定要讓這個匯率能夠穩定這樣才會好所以你不控制然後他還可以穩定喔?呃...不...呃...不...我們...沒關係啊 廖長總裁我不為難您啦齁這個為國家好這個問題我不會往下問啦齁這個我不為難您我來建議我來具體建議可以做的事情啦齁我來跟各位具體建議啦因為我覺得我們大家共赴國難都要站在一起為國家做事啦我建議幾點喔請各位聽一下喔第一個齁"},{"start":502.757,"end":519.046,"text":"這個我覺得這一次的關稅衝擊跟新冠疫情一樣都是很大的衝擊甚至是一個經濟海嘯我覺得我們政府單位應該第一個就比照新冠疫情期間是成立一個指揮中心然後以前新冠疫情是每天宣布新的情形我們這次要三天開一支記者會"},{"start":520.367,"end":537.386,"text":"各個部會對產業衝擊每天有新的結果會怎麼樣做出一個向老百姓報告那個讓全民安心這個中央應變記者要嘛要三天要嘛至少一週要開一次記者會尤其現在還有九十天時間這個是第一點就是這個談判進度要安定民心這個很重要第二個我跟財政部建議這個行政效率部長"},{"start":540.049,"end":566.067,"text":"行政效率的這個提高 事實上就降低那個成本你這個關稅通關快的話 就會降低那個成本那這個對廠商就會有幫助那我知道現在關公署人手非常的不足所以你們要趕快趁這個機會跟人事總局要求增加人手因為當通關迅速的時候 行政成本降低嘛時間就是金錢嘛 你們人手不足我知道嘛所以這個部分你們要趕快增加人手 增加行政效率 降低成本"},{"start":566.707,"end":588.043,"text":"那第三個也是財政部這個比照疫情期間就是說可以按照關務署曾經出口多少這個廠商的歷史數據那評估不管是農業部或不是農業部經濟部這邊評估這些廠商到底因為這樣如果實施32%會有多大的衝擊然後以前在疫情期間衛福部曾經做過一個方法叫做衛八補八就是說診所如果沒有達到"},{"start":589.063,"end":612.239,"text":"當時的百分之八十你就補達到百分之八十那我們一樣可以用這個財政手段財稅的手段如果沒有達到他的損失多少我們可以把這個額度留下來以後當他如果有賺錢可以扣抵的這個稅額用財政手段財稅的手段來幫助我們的這個產業讓他們不至於很快的倒閉那第四點因為今天勞動沒有來就是說勞動部的部分也可以按照"},{"start":612.719,"end":634.787,"text":"之前有多少 禁用多少勞工那多少勞工按照他的勞健保投保那個人數也許政府補助一定的預算讓穩定就業那比如說像疫情期間也是啊針對某一些產業補助勞工比如每個月一萬塊啊五千塊讓勞工的市場可以穩定這個不會讓民眾造成恐慌那金管會當然這個金融市場他是比較自由的但是當然如果"},{"start":635.507,"end":652.037,"text":"勞工就業穩定當如果我們的這個產業比較穩定用財稅手段的時候這個時候我想這個對市場的衝擊就不會那麼大就不會那麼大相對的就會造成金融市場的這個穩定那但是今晚會要注意一點我覺得我們現在政府有一些"},{"start":652.617,"end":674.26,"text":"或者是說有一些人 或者說我們有一些執政黨的有些民意代表他會認為說好像中國大陸課得比較高的關稅是比較好像有點幸災樂禍的感覺但這事實上也不是只有影響到中國大陸因為我們很多台商是在大陸是有設廠的事實上他們的營業很多是算到我們這個 對不對那個 彭主委"},{"start":674.981,"end":680.163,"text":"算到我們上市櫃的營業額裡頭事實上對我們很多上市櫃公司在全球都有佈局越南、泰國、中國大陸都有也是影響他們的產值對我們的金融市場也是有影響的所以政府不要因為說是大陸關稅很高然後我們就幸災樂禍好像跟我們無關事實上我們全世界台商都會受到影響我們一定盡量來協助我們的上市櫃公司"},{"start":700.269,"end":714.477,"text":"這個很多產業的衝擊現在幸好有90天了我期許大家我想我們現在是共赴國難我也不會苛責你們但是我們提出一些建議大家趕快去做趕快想辦法具體可行的方法真正幫助百姓 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝陳立正"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時29分）謝謝主席，麻煩請央行、金管會、財政部、經濟部。"],["主席：請央行楊總裁、金管會彭主委、財政部莊部長、經濟部何次長。"],["楊總裁金龍：陳委員早。"],["陳委員玉珍：各位政府重要的首長，今天幸好早上這個訊息，至少我們又多了90天可以應對。二個禮拜前，賴召委排這個案子的時候，我記得剛剛質詢的李坤城委員還說哪有被列入什麼骯髒15國，這個議題是假議題，那時候還訓了召委一頓，好像排這個案子很不應該，結果我看我們召委事實上是有先見之明！","現在發生關稅32%這件事，上禮拜我們討論這個議題的時候，看到各個部會的報告，包括談判辦公室的報告，事實上都有點不痛不癢。32%的關稅核彈衝擊全球，雖然現在先暫緩90天，先用10%，但是90天之後，我們一樣要面對，所以我們現在要趕快想出辦法，還有可能的問題。","當初被列入骯髒15國（the dirty 15）的時候，我們政府單位的預判。財政部說：會做好因應，實質衝擊預期有限，這是財政部上上禮拜的說法；央行副總裁朱美麗說：對等關稅影響臺灣有限，物價穩定；金管會也說短期波動難免，但上市櫃公司有因應風險的韌性。結果沒想到，你看一發布32%以後，股市連跌3到4天，好幾千點了，當然今天又回來了。我的意思是，當初各個部會，包括財政部、金管會、央行，他現在是又給90天，如果沒有，你們現在還是覺得，如果回到當初，實質影響衝擊有限？32%會有限嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：您所謂的32%有限……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是他原來宣布的，他現在是暫緩，不是沒有喔。32%的對等關稅，你們當初在這之前的預判都是影響有限，那時候是不是預判失準？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這個判斷，事實上我總覺得連美國本身，第一個連川普總統他也沒有想到這個措施下去了，會導致美國的金融市場崩潰。"],["陳委員玉珍：他怎麼沒有想到，或者是……"],["楊總裁金龍：他也沒有想到，這個措施大家都沒有想到"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是，那我們這些部會首長，不管央行、金管會、財政部、經濟部，還有農委會……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想幾乎全球的主管機關都沒有想到啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：但我們是不是太過大意？因為上個禮拜我們在討論的時候，民進黨委員還說這根本不重要，不要恐嚇。"],["楊總裁金龍：你如果說我們大意的話，川普在實施之前，他都說華爾街不會有問題，但是隔天一實施，華爾街大跌，而且連續跌了好幾天。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是要跟大家提醒，這已經發生，幸好今天有回升。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。但是我也跟委員報告，事實上連Fed也沒有想到，美國的中央銀行也沒有想到。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，沒關係，反正已經發生了。現在他這個不合理的公式，大家都認為是不合理。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：你看他這個怎麼算法。我們根本是因為互補，財政部也在這裡，事實上我們跟他們的關稅，我們是6.5%，他們是3.3%，差距才3%而已，沒有所謂的64%。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是不是要讓百姓知道？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯吧？財政部，關稅是你們在負責的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，委員。也就是說在上一次的專案報告裡面，財政部的報告是針對我們跟美國的關稅稅率比較，以及進出口數據的分析。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，事實上就是沒有那麼高嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：但是我們並沒有說影響有限，報告裡面有說會密切的關注這個部分，然後模擬各種情境。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，所以你們有注意，那沒關係。現在既然有90天，我很高興有這個90天，我們還是要往後看，看怎麼樣幫助我們的產業，實際解決問題才是重點。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，當然，要支持產業。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那90天後要怎麼樣來解決這個危機？我們來看一下他的要求是什麼，經濟部、農業部有沒有做好相關的評估，還有我們現在可以做什麼。","我想請問財政部有什麼想法？比如總統說零關稅，如果真的零關稅，汽車這個部分是不是從零關稅開始談起啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，總統已經提過，會組成一個所謂談判小組，會由正副院長領軍，談判小組一直都在模擬各種情境，而且有各種方案。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果談零關稅，要達成它的目的，他要美國汽車產業……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有各種方案，對於國內……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們有沒有做影響評估？"],["莊部長翠雲：對國內產業的影響，會由產業主管機關經濟部跟農業部……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們做了評估沒有？我們在這裡要求汽車降稅，已經要求很久了，也可以幫助國人。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道，對、對、對。降稅對產業的影響，是由……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們做了評估沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：降稅對產業的影響是由經濟部來做評估。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是由經濟部來做汽車產業的影響評估，請經濟部。等一下請農業部也上來一下，到時候如果零關稅，對農民的影響。"],["主席：請農業部杜次長。"],["陳委員玉珍：汽車零關稅的部分，請經濟部先回答。如果汽車零關稅，到時候適用WTO，是不是全部一體適用？對汽車產業的影響有沒有做過評估，你們可不可能這樣做？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，我們當然會為國內的汽車產業爭取最大的權利，零關稅確實對國內的產業是有一些衝擊的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以呢？"],["何次長晉滄：當然我們會在對美談判的時候，爭取最大的空間。"],["陳委員玉珍：總統說要從零關稅談起啊。"],["何次長晉滄：對，是從零關稅談起。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以有可能？"],["何次長晉滄：對，我們還是希望能夠爭取最大的關稅……"],["陳委員玉珍：那不可能，美國不會接受，汽車產業是他的重要產業。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我想請問農業部，到時候零關稅，農民和農牧業都會受到很大衝擊，你知道吧？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你們可以接受嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：從零開始談，但不代表全部都要是零，特別是重要的農產品。"],["陳委員玉珍：那如果美國就這樣要求，你們會接受嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：我想對我們來講，重要的農產品一定要保護著，這是農業部的立場。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們不會接受？總統要零關稅，如果美國就這樣要求呢？"],["杜次長文珍：從零關稅開始談，不代表全部都要變成零。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果美國就這樣要求呢？90天之後32%。"],["杜次長文珍：我想我們一定會據理力爭。因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：據理力爭？沒有！他就是要32%，不然就是零！"],["杜次長文珍：重要的農產品還是要保護著。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們也不支持，那你們都不支持賴總統？","來，央行！剛剛很多財經專家都說這是美債，您剛剛也提到了，現在新臺幣已經升值，你會不會同意放手升值，或者同意讓持有美債從一年或短期債變成長期債，甚至是無息債？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，中央銀行從來沒有說新臺幣不能升值，或是新臺幣不能貶值。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就是央行事實上沒有在控制匯率。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們總覺得這個匯率是由市場來決定。"],["陳委員玉珍：自由？"],["楊總裁金龍：它要升值就要讓它升值，它要貶值的時候……"],["陳委員玉珍：它要升值或貶值，就讓它自由的升貶。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊。中央銀行的角色，只能說讓新臺幣的匯率波動幅度不要太大，如果太大……"],["陳委員玉珍：它要升值就升值，怎麼波動幅度不會太大？一天跌二千多點，一天升一千多點，外資進出不會波動太大？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：不會嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，會，還是會，就是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：那你控制嗎？你要不要控制？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在的匯率波動幅度是比以前還大的，為什麼？"],["陳委員玉珍：好，但是你們也不會去控制，因為操縱匯率等於是非關稅的壁壘。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為現在金融市場資金的匯出，進來或出去有些時候都在很短時間內，都是很鉅額的，一定要讓匯率能夠穩定，這樣的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你不控制，它還可以穩定？"],["楊總裁金龍：不、不，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，央行總裁，我不為難您，為國家好，這個問題我不會往下問了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個我不為難您，我來具體建議可以做的事情，我來跟各位具體建議。因為我覺得大家要共赴國難，都要站在一起為國家做事。我建議幾點，請各部會聽一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我覺得這次的關稅衝擊，事實上跟新冠疫情一樣，都是很大的衝擊，甚至是一個經濟海嘯。第一個，我覺得我們政府單位應該比照新冠疫情期間成立一個指揮中心，以前新冠疫情是每天宣布新的情形，這一次至少要三天開一次記者會，讓各個部會對產業有怎麼樣的衝擊，有新的結果向老百姓報告，讓全民安心。中央應變中心要嘛三天，要嘛至少一周要開一次記者會，尤其現在還有90天時間。這是第一點，談判進度、安定民心，這個很重要。","第二個，我跟財政部建議。部長，行政效率的提高，事實上就降低成本，關稅通關快的話，就會降低成本，對廠商就會有幫助。我知道現在關務署人手非常的不足，所以你們要趕快趁這個機會跟人事總局要求增加人手。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為當通關迅速的時候，行政成本降低，時間就是金錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們人手不足我知道，所以你們要趕快增加人手，增加行政效率，降低成本。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的支持，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：第三個也是財政部，比照疫情期間，可以按照關務署曾經出口的廠商歷史數據，經濟部評估如果實施32%，對這些廠商到底會有多大的衝擊。以前在疫情期間，衛福部曾經做過的方法叫做「未8補8」，就是診所如果沒有達到當時的80%，就補到80%。這次我們一樣可以用這個財政手段、財稅的手段，看他的損失多少，我們可以把這個額度留下來，以後他如果有賺錢，可以扣抵稅額，用財政手段、財稅的手段來幫助產業，讓他們不致於很快的倒閉。","第四個，因為今天勞動部沒有來，勞動部也可以按照之前進用多少勞工，按照勞健保投保人數，也許政府補助一定的預算，穩定就業。像疫情期間也是，針對某些產業補助勞工，比如每個月10,000元、5,000元，讓勞工的市場可以穩定，不會造成民眾恐慌。","至於金管會，當然金融市場是比較自由的，如果勞工就業穩定，產業比較穩定，用財稅手段的時候，我想對市場的衝擊就不會那麼大了，就不會那麼大，相對的就會造成金融市場的穩定。","但是金管會也要注意一點，我覺得現在政府有一些人，或者執政黨有一些民意代表認為中國大陸課比較高的關稅，好像有點幸災樂禍。但是事實上也不是只有影響到中國大陸，因為很多臺商在大陸是有設廠的，他們的營業額很多是算到我們上市櫃公司的營業額裡頭，對不對？彭主委。事實上，我們很多上市櫃公司在全球都有布局，越南、泰國、中國大陸都有，也會影響他們的產值，所以對我們的金融市場也是有影響的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在很多上市公司在全球都有設廠。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以政府不要因為大陸關稅很高，就幸災樂禍，好像跟我們無關，事實上全世界臺商都會受到影響。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們一定儘量來協助我們的上市櫃公司。"],["陳委員玉珍：很多產業受到衝擊，現在幸好有90天。我期許大家，我想我們現在是共赴國難，我也不會苛責你們，但是我提出一些建議，大家趕快去做，趕快想辦法，用具體可行的方法真正幫助百姓。好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971259a191cc5d2637fcf9600c3f6b437ac21a30f584bceeba998618b4638536ef0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:22:29 - 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USA以及相關的這個採購團去到美國這些採購並不是只是一個裝點門面而是譬如說像這個對於這個天然氣"},{"start":180.47,"end":200.604,"text":"的這個採購包括對於這個供應鏈的這個投資都是我們的國家整個經濟結構轉型以及我們國家的這個安全的韌性上面的這個提升所以是我們所需要的所以這個是我們的談判的策略第二個是說我們在科技上面的優勢那麼這也是我們的這個談判就是說美國如果"},{"start":201.184,"end":222.135,"text":"希望在AI上面能夠取得全球領導的地位的話台灣必然是不可或缺的一部分那我們希望用我們的誠意跟我們的做好功課能夠跟美國做最萬全的一個準備我們不敢預期說他會對我們降多少關鍵但我覺得我們是可以樂觀以待的有機會降低嗎"},{"start":222.95,"end":241.949,"text":"我覺得是他既然已經說了是說第一個美國財政部長Benson說其實我們現在看到這個對等關稅他的這個上限那個是屬於上限而不是屬於所以我們要用我們的做好功課然後拿出我們的誠意包括對於有關於這個"},{"start":244.37,"end":259.596,"text":"非關稅的貿易障礙的部分我們跟美方充分的溝通然後能夠做適合的調整我想我們有很好的機會能夠得到比較好的後果這我們也期待我們也請我們相關部會就是準備齊全那美中關係會不會在這個"},{"start":264.158,"end":280.431,"text":"美中關係分了好幾個層次包括安全經貿包括其他的共享的價值文化等等我想在所有的地方我們跟美國在價值上面一致在利益上面也是一致然後在安全上面有共同的一個需求"},{"start":280.971,"end":306.821,"text":"所以我可以來說是說包括從這個我們剛才提到的這個美日的峰會那麼的聲明包括美日韓在這個慕尼黑這個安全對話之後的共同聲明包括在G7上面這已經說明了說其實以及很重要的這個美國的這個新任國防部長在亞洲型上面所發表的聲明也充分的表示他們對於這個地區的重視那在各個"},{"start":309.462,"end":337.725,"text":"這個最近這個中國對我們的這個洗腦上面那麼國務院以及美國相關單位甚至包括歐盟等等都展現出對於台海的和平穩定的關切我想這讓我們感到說在安全上面有很多可以做到在經貿上面就這一次因為昨天的這個豁免也讓我們看到是說雖然是暫時的豁免但是我們是在美國的這一邊我們是在所謂的整個價值的這個非紅工意念的一邊現在上美國"},{"start":338.365,"end":342.49,"text":"所以在這基礎上面我覺得說台美關係會有很好的一個發展的機會"},{"start":343.667,"end":371.5,"text":"持續觀察那對於美國財政部長貝森特他也有談到美方可能會和日本、韓國還有台灣等重要的亞洲經濟的夥伴來達成一項阿拉斯加能源投資的協議而美國與主要的這些貿易國談判的時候不會拘泥於關稅與傳統貿易的協定而是把能源還有國防等多項議題結合"},{"start":373.121,"end":396.544,"text":"也對非貿易領域的談判表示歡迎那我想對於阿拉斯加能源協議我們會是接下來台美談判的一個關鍵嗎那未來在台美相關的協議協商的機制當中是否應該在經濟貿易合作的基礎上進一步強調我國的能源經濟還有國家安全的相關議題"},{"start":398.127,"end":426.537,"text":"對 當然所以我們要把這個對阿拉斯加的這個天然氣採購案以及投資案看成其實第一個是增加我們的能源韌性從美國運來台灣比這個從中東運來台灣其實它來得近這個也是我們就近的一個考慮過去的時候因為中共美國的這個限制那麼從美國進口這個天然氣比較困難那現在既然拜登政府有意的打開這條路的話我們當然很願意掌握這樣的機會第二個"},{"start":427.117,"end":452.068,"text":"他是台美關係中間一個重要的槓桿我們事實上跟委員報告我們事實上是甚至是早於日本早於韓國去談這個阿拉斯加的這個天然氣的案子事實上我們也做了相關的一個承諾目前來說我們進度是最好的那川普也希望說他們的這個製造業能夠回流到美國並且要求這個"},{"start":453.945,"end":472.204,"text":"相關的國家能夠增加對美國的投資也期望我們台灣的半導體能夠加速前往美國來佈局這個會與我們台灣提升在非紅供應鏈的地位的目標兩者之間應該要如何來互補以確保我們台灣的一個戰略地位不受影響"},{"start":472.97,"end":494.466,"text":"是,那麼我們這個在半導體上面就是這個我們研發生跟台灣產線佈局全球但是在這個脈絡之下然後我們也能夠接就近這個我們的客戶畢竟我們的很多的客戶是在美國所以我想在台積電他們作為一個民間企業私人企業他有這樣的一個考量所以去做了投資"},{"start":495.667,"end":520.181,"text":"這個投資現在已經開始產生效益第一個是說在建廠階段對於美國提供了大量的建築工人的這個界第二個提供匯來這個高科技的就業界第三個對於很多層重要對於我們的半導體產業來說是究竟那麼接近美國除了接近客戶之外還有一個是接近這個美國的強大的研究的能力包括對於AI包括對於未來的可能的這個量子的這個電腦那麼都能夠"},{"start":522.342,"end":535.612,"text":"往那個地方能夠得到更好的一個機會所以是跟美國的安全以及美國想要在AI上面在這個所謂的這個Cyber space上面能夠繼續的領先全球是至關重要的一部分"},{"start":536.135,"end":547.706,"text":"好,那另外我們為了平衡台美貿易的順逆差,我們政府也提出要擴大對美採購的策略,其中由我們外交部還有農業部將籌組農業的訪問,預計這個九月,跟剛剛市長您說的十月應該是不同的一個採購的團體"},{"start":559.176,"end":585.568,"text":"那我們農訪團赴美採購的這個時間和相關的這個規劃是否已經這個定案那會不會再提前我們現在來說的話目前得到的訊息是按照原來的時程走畢竟我們五月馬上會有幾個團不是一個團包括SelectUSA那麼包括這個我們的這個民間的產業工會所帶領的那麼我們外交部全力配合的以及在國防產業上面"},{"start":586.448,"end":604.755,"text":"那麼都會陸續的在五月的時候到訪美國我想希望能夠在這個上面提供我們跟美國談判上一個重要的槓桿那麼也會充分的利用這個透過訊息能夠讓這個美國的政府了解到我們對於美國的這個投資以及採購是有十足的誠意"},{"start":605.695,"end":621.862,"text":"那另外我們擴大採購的這些農特產品的規劃,包括稻米還有基改的作物等等,是否會衝擊到我們國內的農業?那外交部是否和農業部已經和縣市政府進行盤點跟評估?"},{"start":624.513,"end":650.795,"text":"這個部分比較多的是我們負責去這個對外的這個溝通談判那當然說相關的這個對於我們本國的農業的衝擊主要是由農業部來但是我的瞭解是說其實農業部在這上面也做了萬全的準備既然我們要對煤採購那麼對於國內的這個農業會有產生的這個衝擊那麼我想說包括在農業部包括在行政院這個地方都已經做好的這個相關的一個準備"},{"start":652.337,"end":678.776,"text":"好,這個農業跟農民是相對的弱勢,那我也請我們未來的採購團在整個過程裡面,務必要特別的謹慎保護好我們我們一定權衡國內的考慮以及對於我們重要有盟的關係,兩者權重之下來做我們相關的採購跟談判好,謝謝次長,那因為時間因素,不好意思兩位副作會後如果有時間再請教,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時22分）謝謝主席，請外交部陳次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室顏副座、大陸委員會沈副主委。","次長、各位首長，大家午安！今天立法院多個委員會都聚焦在美國對等關稅衝擊各國的相關議題上，我們看到川普的決策也是瞬息萬變，在臺灣時間今天凌晨宣布將暫緩對等關稅90天，並且有75個國家已經主張要和美國來討論貿易的相關議題，他們只要是對於美國友善的部分，他們對等關稅的稅率會先維持在10%左右，川普更表示未來在談判的過程裡面，他希望能夠跟每一個國家坐下來談，他親自要下去談，他也指示貿易團隊對於每一個友美的國家，一定要制定特製的貿易協議，每一份協議都要根據該國的市場，還有該國出口的產品及美國進口等情況來量身訂做，以確保美國勞工和產業有利的方案。","在此我想就教相關部會，就我們準備的這些方案，以我們自身的優勢來研判，川普在未來90天後會不會對臺灣調降關稅？這個機會高不高？另外，在整個過程裡面，我們也觀察到美中之間的互不相讓，到關稅政策的急轉彎，我們如何來觀察川普的相關策略及中國的反應？接下來，美中之間會不會有相關的策略轉彎的狀況？"],["陳次長明祺：跟委員報告，首先是我們談判的策略，包括總統在禮拜天的談話還有今天在Bloomberg上面的投書，我想都已經把我們的談判策略與談判優勢講得很清楚，第一個是我們已經commit對於美國的投資、對於美國的採購，而且我們在5月的時候還會有SelectUSA以及相關的採購團去到美國，這些採購並非只是裝點門面，比如說對於天然氣的採購，包括對於供應鏈的投資，都是我們國家整個經濟結構轉型以及我們國家安全韌性上面的提升，所以是我們所需要的，這個是我們的談判策略。第二個是我們在科技上面的優勢也是我們的談判策略，也就是說美國如果希望在AI上面能夠取得全球領導地位的話，臺灣必然是不可或缺的一部分。我們希望用我們的誠意跟我們做好功課能夠跟美國做最萬全的一個準備，我們不敢預期說他會對我們降多少關稅，但我覺得我們是可以樂觀以待的。"],["陳委員俊宇：有機會降低嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：我覺得是第一個、美國財政部長Bessent說，其實我們現在看到的這個對等關稅是屬於上限，所以我們要自己先做好功課，然後拿出我們的誠意，包括有關非關稅貿易障礙的部分，我們跟美方充分的溝通，能做適合的調整，我想我們有很好的機會能夠得到比較好的後果。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這我們也期待啦！也請我們相關部會準備齊全……"],["陳次長明祺：那一定。"],["陳委員俊宇：那美中關係會不會在這個……"],["陳次長明祺：美中關係分成好幾個層次，包括安全、經貿，包括其他共享的價值文化等等，我想在所有的地方，我們跟美國在價值上面一致，在利益上面也是一致，在安全上面有共同的一個需求，所以我可以說包括我們剛才提到的美日峰會的聲明，包括美日韓在慕尼黑安全對話之後的共同聲明，包括在G7上面，以及很重要的美國新任國防部長Hegseth在亞洲之行所發表的聲明，也充分表示他們對於這個地區的重視，然後在最近中國對我們的襲擾上面，美國國務院以及相關單位甚至包括歐盟等等都展現出對於臺海和平穩定的關切，我想這讓我們感覺到在安全上面有很多可以合作之處，在經貿上面，因為昨天的這個豁免也讓我們看到雖然是暫時的豁免，但是我們是在美國的這一邊，我們是在所謂的整個價值的非紅供應鏈的一邊，所以在這個基礎上面，我覺得臺美關係會有很好的一個發展機會。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，持續觀察啦！"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：美國財政部長貝森特也有談到美方可能會和日本、韓國還有臺灣等重要的亞洲經濟夥伴達成一項阿拉斯加能源投資協議，且美國與主要的這些貿易國談判的時候，不會拘泥於關稅與傳統貿易的協定，而是把能源還有國防等多項議題結合，也對這個非貿易領域的談判表示歡迎，請問這個阿拉斯加能源協議會是接下來臺美談判的一個關鍵嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：未來在臺美相關協議的協商機制中，是否應該在經濟貿易合作的基礎上進一步強調我國的能源經濟還有國家安全的相關議題？"],["陳次長明祺：這是當然，其實我們要把對阿拉斯加的天然氣採購案以及投資案看成第一個是增加我們的能源韌性，從美國運來臺灣比從中東運來臺灣其實還來得近，這個也是我們就近的一個考慮。過去因為美國的限制，從美國進口天然氣比較困難，現在既然川普政府有意打開這條路，我們當然很願意掌握這樣的機會。第二個、它是臺美關係中間一個重要的槓桿，跟委員報告，事實上我們甚至是早於日本早於韓國去談這個阿拉斯加天然氣案的，我們也做了相關的一個承諾，目前來說我們的進度是最好的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，川普也希望他們的製造業能夠回流到美國，並且要求相關的國家能夠增加對美國的投資，也期望我們臺灣的半導體業能夠加速前往美國布局，這個與我們臺灣提升在非紅供應鏈地位的目標，兩者之間應該要如何來互補，以確保我們臺灣的一個戰略地位不受影響？"],["陳次長明祺：在半導體上面，我們就是研發深耕臺灣、產線布局全球，在這個脈絡之下，我們也能夠就近接近我們的客戶，畢竟我們很多的客戶是在美國，我想台積電他們作為一個民間私人企業有這樣的一個考量，所以去做了投資。這個投資現在已經開始產生效益，第一個是在建廠階段，對於美國提供了大量的建築工人的工作機會，第二個是未來提供高科技的就業機會，第三個是對於我們的很多很重要的半導體產業來說，除了可以就近接近美國客戶之外，還有一個是接近美國強大的研究能力，包括對AI、包括對於未來可能的量子電腦，都能夠往那個地方得到更好的一個機會，所以是跟美國的安全以及美國想要在AI上面、在所謂的Cyberspace上面能夠繼續領先全球是至關重要的一部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，為了平衡臺美貿易的逆差，我們政府也提出要擴大對美採購的策略，外交部還有農業部預計9月將籌組農業的訪問團，這跟剛剛次長您說的10月那個應該是不同的採購團體，請問我們農訪團赴美採購的時間和相關規劃是否已經定案？會不會再提前？"],["陳次長明祺：我們目前得到的訊息是按照原來的時程走，畢竟我們在5月馬上會有幾個團，不是一個團，包括SelectUSA、包括我們民間的產業工會所帶領外交部全力配合的還有在國防產業上面的，都會陸續的在5月的時候到訪美國，希望能夠在這個上面提供我們跟美國談判上一個重要的槓桿，我們也會充分的利用這個，透過訊息，能夠讓美國的政府瞭解到我們對美國的投資以及採購有十足的誠意。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們規劃擴大採購的這些農特產品，包括稻米還有基改作物等等，是否會衝擊到我們國內的農業？外交部是否和農業部已經和縣市政府進行盤點跟評估？"],["陳次長明祺：在這個部分，我們負責的多是對外的溝通談判，相關的對於我們本國農業的衝擊，主要是由農業部來做，但是據我的瞭解，其實農業部在這上面也做了萬全的準備，既然我們要對美採購，那麼對於國內農業會產生的衝擊，我想包括農業部包括行政院都已做好相關的準備。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，農業跟農民是相對弱勢的，我也請我們未來的採購團在這整個過程裡面，務必要特別的謹慎，保護好我們在地的農業。"],["陳次長明祺：一定，我們一定會權衡國內這方面的考慮以及我們重要友盟的關係，兩者權重之下來做相關的採購跟談判。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長。因為時間因素，不好意思，會後如果有時間再請教兩位副座。謝謝！"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。","接下來由林倩綺委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160087","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712d1e8c3b6039936aff11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba996175e7c94f56e9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:17:30 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請理事長理事長好首先我請教我們的理事長根據我們的資料顯示3月底我們的外匯存底是5780億美金"},{"start":33.223,"end":54.594,"text":"那又根據報導我們投資在美國國債是92%等於是5200億美金那現在美國的國債是負債36兆美金一年的利息就要增加一兆多的美金那現在"},{"start":56.004,"end":71.877,"text":"美國發起這個關稅債當然現在90千的款重啟出來了但是我請教你他會不會在這個關稅債裡面來跟我們談條件譬如3年的美國國債3個月的美國國債你幫我延遲3年10年的美國國債你幫我延遲20年30年的美國國債延到50年"},{"start":85.219,"end":91.942,"text":"第二個可能他會跟你偷偷的暗中要求不要互利息你們會不會遭遇到這樣的情形"},{"start":93.122,"end":120.169,"text":"包委因為當然談判的內容我們現在也不是很清楚那當然這個部分我沒有辦法在這邊回應沒有辦法在這邊講我是簡直來叫你要注意川普生意人他會算這個我看他主要的目的就在這個地方所以你們要有準備經濟部長帶著微笑表示他認同還有一點現在兩岸的關係非常的嚴峻"},{"start":121.791,"end":138.608,"text":"兩邊一開戰的時候我們做五千七百億的美債外匯存頂萬一不像台灣失敗的話做五千七百億的那個我們的"},{"start":140.587,"end":163.488,"text":"外匯成品到底是死於中華人民共和國還是台灣獨立國還是台灣民主國還是美利堅共和國會歸死到哪裡這個情形有可能發生你不要笑笑不做準備委員非常高瞻眼睛不是高瞻眼睛是未雨卓妙"},{"start":164.938,"end":184.882,"text":"先退下之憂而憂 後退下之樂而樂我看這個情況也要特別注意啊當然這個問題不能深談啦但是點出來 特別注意一下私底下再跟你請教啦有可能發生 有可能發生好不好請回座然後我來請我們的農業部長請農業部長喂齁 陳部長好"},{"start":193.956,"end":220.408,"text":"那我們現在談判我們賴總統我們執政黨提出零居關稅的談判阿美國是農業大國我現在請教你一個事實的問題我們從美國進口的農產品比我們銷到美國的農產品一年大概差多少我們是勝差還是逆差逆差28億逆差多少28億"},{"start":222.318,"end":240.305,"text":"加起來28億我們黃豆什麼都進口我們從美國買的東西36.9億我們銷到美國的是8.9億所以逆差是28億我們怎麼會進口那麼少我們不是疫苗那些很多我講的是美金喔好那你在這樣的一個狀況之下"},{"start":242.731,"end":264.109,"text":"你所有的農產品我們這邊是逆差它是差你最好不要調不然會害死我們台灣農民你們敢不敢這樣紀理立生這個是一個談判的條件我想雙方的這些關稅的談判一定是基於雙方互贏的方向我說我們用這個來談"},{"start":266.968,"end":275.873,"text":"28.多億跟我們8.9億在那幾兆進出口裡面那個微微的毛毛移的那個好像是我們在推你們要堅持計算"},{"start":277.711,"end":295.01,"text":"因為我現在先跟你講你開放聯機關稅不是對美國的問題台灣的地位你也曉得為了維持各個友邦的關係如果其他國家提出來跟美國一樣聯關稅稅金你要怎樣這個才是重點這個才是問題啊"},{"start":297.779,"end":316.23,"text":"我想所有的關稅談判裡面喔其實不同的國家也是一樣喔農業它有它的特性所以農業本身的這些談判絕對不是說所有的品項都是零關稅我覺得台灣的農業之後在G7八年的執政政案下來會很慘第一個 精緻農業一定要堅持第二個 能量物理要做好"},{"start":317.554,"end":342.607,"text":"第三個深層加工要做好其實世界很廣大台灣人很聰明可以調各種料理做出最好的料理你們要不要在這方面研究我覺得你要改進到這個地方你才有辦法我們台灣農業歷史世界不然你自己丟在這裡可以說自給自足而已不然你就自己丟在這裡自給自足就好"},{"start":343.584,"end":364.066,"text":"如果你們這樣的作為沒有新的師的作為現在我去看了很多工廠做的加工的產業做的非常清楚非常好現在人不煮飯啦這裡面的小姐都不會煮也不會殺雞殺鴨殺鵝啊不像我們改變觀念改變思維台灣的農業才有救"},{"start":365.147,"end":384.601,"text":"謝謝委員的建議 其實我們已經在做了很多農產品的加工加值其實它的加工效益會比較大像中東你要消氣 你要曉得它的外勞有多少哪一個地方的外勞 什麼口味去研究嘛因為我跑過那個地方 我曉得啦好不好 因為我要問郡主會長好不好 好好 請回座"},{"start":397.74,"end":424.687,"text":"郭部長好我今天的主題我有一個吃中的朋友很要好他是順利死於台獨了而且每次總統選舉特地趕回來台灣可以請假一個月替你們自治黨服刑那他為什麼雖然我吃中好友他為什麼會支持我他說我最不像自治人物的政治人物"},{"start":426.26,"end":453.41,"text":"那我今天他發給的內容我讀給你聽我也不曉得他發這個內容我覺得他思想改變了他跟我講因為美國已經沒有政治才使世界大失所望因為中國要強國而不是幸福大國那裡面川普說台積電是假通"},{"start":454.619,"end":470.065,"text":"他住在偉大的美利均共和國那美國就是強盜盜的這他寫給我一個簡訊表示他們的憤怒台灣幾十年的辛辛苦苦捐起來的IC產業"},{"start":471.565,"end":487.675,"text":"你曉得以前成衣外銷大概要一百個貨櫃才能換他一台戰車一個飛彈我們是趕空前去賺的他們在榮華富貴在享受他不會忘記這一切大事罷錢罷職那我以這個事情我要問你請教你幾個問題台積電很重要"},{"start":497.441,"end":513.532,"text":"美國威脅說你台積電不來建廠我就100%的關稅那美國它只要要掌握40%的產量控制且限制台灣台積電以後未來的外銷它有限制在"},{"start":514.622,"end":543.271,"text":"中國在美國上山 台灣現在上山 你要怎麼來應付被他限制的時時 用的地方會大概那幾個國家在使用他會去用 會在周邊的應用所以台灣的電子競 包括台積電在台灣何去何從 你有想到嗎我這點你要先研究一下那你們以前也信誓旦旦說台積電的NR中心一定會不會到美國"},{"start":544.551,"end":567.019,"text":"人家大國啊,不用嘴巴講得很滿啊你們現在乖乖也是要過去以前在修理台積電核心的商業精密核心的技術都要給他你們現在都不敢講當時對台灣我們愛台灣的保障在哪裡?絕對不被研發中心精密資料不被給他乖乖的奉送給他們另外我還要請教你統一作黨這個要特別注意"},{"start":573.78,"end":600.988,"text":"台積電跟英特爾 國安會 劉思維說柴油跟汽油不能混合那我也很奇怪 到底能不能混合因為這卡路里有托勞斯還是什麼安置在他也想要製造一個嗆艇養一隻老虎來去咬台積電 怕他萬一受打這你要去考慮一下不然台灣的企業行行口口白奉獻給別人"},{"start":602.288,"end":614.125,"text":"再來我要跟你談到第三點埃及的成熟製品現在連電是世界第四大的他要跟那個美國什麼格羅荒"},{"start":616.181,"end":632.763,"text":"什麼公司第五大要合併我看是有可能你們講不可能報紙都寫你要去談判你要好好談判第一大的已經被拿走了第二大又被拿走了台灣剩下什麼跟我講好好的講剩下什麼"},{"start":634.266,"end":660.721,"text":"你們想來要知道,這臺灣的感恐你以前有那小企業一直做到現在一個算起來也是一個中大企業每一步每一步都是臺灣人辛苦流血流亡自己打造出來,窮苦了人家沒有人保護你,只有自力困難不要輕易把臺灣打造到現在你們就輕易放鬆給別人,不要危殆"},{"start":662.031,"end":686.644,"text":"可以去忍受,就忍受,我就要跟你說所以你要記得台灣剩下什麼但是我說台灣的企業家就是游牧民主哪裡有回炒就完了,很可憐的不然你們八年的執政提了好幾個政策,我現在也在聽別的,還原台商回台投資行動方案"},{"start":690.988,"end":705.624,"text":"恍恍惚惚,熱熱鬧鬧,確實很多台商回來了。第二個,更留台灣企業加速投資行動方案。再來,中小企業加速投資方案,這些人花了幾十萬在這裡,要搞台灣這塊工啊。"},{"start":709.104,"end":735.305,"text":"要更留台灣喔蔡英文當總統的時候就推動南向政策鼓勵中國在大陸的台商往東南亞去走我今天再看就不錯我們的賴執政黨的賴子熙我們現在的賴總統說要偷中日本我們要順化經貿"},{"start":737.301,"end":753.274,"text":"以美意取轉型,又以自由經濟的實力,立足台灣,步及全球,形成全球的台灣,再機適以人才相互依賴。但是我總得要強調,總值趨勢很厲害,"},{"start":760.205,"end":770.619,"text":"歐美的白種人永遠看不起黃種人我要跟你講這根深蒂固除了日本人以外他稍微不起勢仔細站起來"},{"start":772.117,"end":798.984,"text":"他把中國大陸講鄉巴佬台灣是不是鄉巴佬你去別人找才不會去別人找各種文化有很多不一樣我現在懷疑你們是把台灣這隻羊送入到那白種人歐美的虎口裡面我們自己做什麼台灣的外交關係能保護多少台商你講我們都心知肚明"},{"start":800.307,"end":825.335,"text":"站起來我就不講多,你也不用回答,我把我心中的感受跟你講順滋順滋台灣這塊土地搞得好,不像你的執政黨,東西南北都要遊牧民族變民搞得現在都不曉,感染要感染一個方向哪邊有草可以吃都是你們提出來八年時間的變化東西南北征戰"},{"start":826.803,"end":844.648,"text":"台商都到現在一無所有倒是在水深火熱在掙扎之中他賺的外匯是離不來台灣你們真的要好好愛惜這塊土地那我跟你講中小企業會變成一個痛苦區然後我跟台積電幾個高階主管"},{"start":846.71,"end":862.519,"text":"痛苦期就要磨練自己技術要磨要深化提升它的價值在中小企業大量的就中小企業如果台灣沒有留住中小企業就沒有未來台灣中小企業"},{"start":864.472,"end":880.133,"text":"是真的是跟佔了70部分就業人口大企業你不要去管他現在錢多多你反而要照顧中小企業他自取生路已經有國際的成本主席站了那麼久"},{"start":881.575,"end":903.655,"text":"我坐下來一談到執政團他就站起來了我是真心的為台灣我是蔣經營人謝謝委員的提示不是提示啦 感受遠深啦你可能平反時我們會更獲取更大的利益那一段來過我們有技術本領嘛我們獨一無二嘛"},{"start":905.791,"end":915.735,"text":"這台電我相信你自己能感受得到台灣在助力更生助力成長的過程我們是驕傲的台灣但是不要被執政黨出賣掉謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時17分）主席，首先有請我們財政部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：李次長好。首先請教李次長，根據資料顯示，3月底我們的外匯存底是5,780億美金，又根據報導，我們投資在美國國債是92%，等於是5,200億美金，現在美國的國債是負債36兆美金，一年的利息就要增加一兆多的美金，現在美國發起關稅戰，當然現在90天的緩衝期出來了，但是我請教你，它會不會在這個關稅戰裡面來跟我們談條件？譬如3個月的美國國債，你幫我延成3年；10年的美國國債，你幫我延20年；30年的美國國債延到50年？第二個，可能它會偷偷跟你暗中要求不要付利息，你們會不會遭遇到這樣的情形？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，當然談判的內容，我們現在也不是很清楚，這個部分，我沒有辦法在這邊回應委員。"],["陳委員超明：沒有辦法在這邊講，我是點出來叫你要注意，川普是生意人，他很會算這個，我看他主要的目的就在這個地方，所以你們要有準備，我看經濟部長帶著微笑表示他認同。還有一點，現在兩岸關係非常嚴峻，兩邊一開戰的時候，我們這5,700億的美債、外匯存底，萬一不幸，萬一不幸臺灣失敗的話，這5,700億的外匯存底，到底是屬於中華人民共和國的、還是臺灣獨立國、還是臺灣民主國、還是美利堅共和國的？會歸屬到哪裡？這個情形有可能發生喔！你不要笑笑不準備啊！"],["李次長慶華：是，委員，委員非常高瞻遠矚啦！"],["陳委員超明：不是高瞻遠矚，是未雨綢繆，先天下之憂而憂，後天下之樂而樂，我看這個情況也要特別注意啊！"],["李次長慶華：好，我們這個會注意。"],["陳委員超明：當然這個問題不能深談啦！"],["李次長慶華：是，對，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：但是點出來特別注意一下，私底下再跟你請教啦，有可能發生，好不好？很嚴重。"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：然後我來請我們的農業部長。"],["主席：請農業部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：陳部長好。我們現在談判，我們賴總統、我們執政黨提出零關稅的談判，美國是農業大國，我現在請教你一個實質的問題，我們從美國進口的農產品比我們銷到美國的農產品一年大概差多少？我們是順差還是逆差？"],["陳部長駿季：逆差28億。"],["陳委員超明：逆差多少？"],["陳部長駿季：28億。"],["陳委員超明：加起來28億？我們黃豆什麼都進口。"],["陳部長駿季：我們從美國買的東西36.9億，我們銷到美國的是8.9億，所以逆差是28億。"],["陳委員超明：我們怎麼會進口那麼少？我們不是玉米啦，那些很多……"],["陳部長駿季：我講的是美金喔！"],["陳委員超明：好，在這樣的狀況之下，你所有的農產品，我們這邊是逆差、它順差，你最好不要調，不然會害死我們臺灣農民，你們敢不敢這樣據理力爭？這個是一個談判的條件。"],["陳部長駿季：我想雙方的這些關稅談判一定是基於雙方互贏的方向去……"],["陳委員超明：我說我們用這個來談，二十八點多億跟我們八點多億，在那幾兆進出口裡面，那個微微的、毛毛雨的好像風在吹，你們要堅持拒徵。我現在先跟你講，你開放零關稅，不是對美國的問題，臺灣的地位你也曉得，為了維持各個友邦的關係，如果其他國家一樣跟美國提出零關稅稅基，你要怎樣辦？這個才是重點啊，這個才是問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想所有的關稅談判裡面，其實不同的國家也是一樣，農業有它的特殊性……"],["陳委員超明：我覺得……"],["陳部長駿季：所以農業本身的這些談判絕對不是所有的品項都是零關稅。"],["陳委員超明：我覺得臺灣的農業如果再繼續這樣8年執政下去會很慘，第一個，精緻農業一定要堅持；第二個，冷鏈物流要做好；第三個，生產加工要做好。其實世界很廣大，臺灣人很聰明，可以調各種料理，做出最好的料理。你們沒有在這方面研究，我覺得你要改進到這個地方，我們臺灣農業才有辦法立足世界，不然我們只有給自己吃，可以說自給自足而已，不然你乾脆就自己吃，自給自足就好。如果以你們這樣的作為，沒有新的作為，我去看了很多工廠，加工的產業都做得非常好，現在人不煮飯啦，這裡面的小姐都不會煮，也不會殺雞、殺鴨、殺鵝啊，需要改變觀念、改變思維，臺灣的農業才有救。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的建議，其實我們已經在做了，很多農產品的加工加值，其實它附加的效益會比較大。"],["陳委員超明：你要成立專案……像你要銷去中東，你要曉得它的外勞有多少，哪一個地方的外勞、什麼口味，去研究嘛！因為我跑過那個地方，我曉得啦！好不好？因為我還要問經濟部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經在做了，謝謝委員的建議，我們已經在做了。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？好，請回座。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：郭部長好。我今天的主題，我有一個初中的朋友很要好，他是深綠，屬於臺獨啦，而且每次總統選舉都特地趕回來臺灣，可以請假一個月，替你們執政黨輔選。雖然他是我初中好友，他為什麼會支持我？他說我是最不像政治人物的政治人物，我今天把他發給我的內容讀給你聽，我也不曉得他發這個內容，我覺得他思想改變了，他跟我講，因為美國已經沒有正直，才使世界大失所望；中國要強國，而不是幸福大國。川普說台積電是小偷，他住在偉大的美利堅共和國，美國就是強盜、盜匪。這是他寫給我的簡訊，表示他們也憤怒，這是臺灣幾十年來辛辛苦苦建起來的IC產業。你曉得以前成衣外銷，大概要100個貨櫃才能換它一台戰車、一個飛彈，我們是用辛苦錢去賺的，他們有榮華富貴、在享受，它不會忘記這一些，它是霸權霸主。我引這個事情，我要問你、請教你幾個問題，台積電很重要，美國威脅說你台積電不來建廠，我就課100%的關稅，美國主要要掌握40%的產量，控制且限制臺灣台積電以後未來的外銷，它有限制在，如果在美國生產，臺灣這裡的生產你要怎麼來用？被它限制得死死，用的地方也大概那幾個國家在使用，它會去用，會在周邊的運用。所以臺灣的電子業，包括台積電在臺灣何去何從，你有想到嗎？我這點你要稍微研究。你們以前也信誓旦旦說，台積電的研發中心一定不會到美國，人家那是大國啦，不用嘴巴講得很滿啦，你們現在也是要乖乖過去，以前在修理台積電，核心的商業機密、核心的技術都要給他們，你們現在都不敢講，當時對臺灣，我們愛臺灣的保障在哪裡，說什麼研發中心、機密資料絕對不會給它，結果還不是乖乖地奉送給他們。","另外，我還要請教你，統一作答，這個要特別注意，台積電跟英特爾，國發會劉主委說柴油跟汽油不能混合，那我也很奇怪，到底能不能混合？因為這個考慮有托拉斯還是什麼案子在，它也想要製造一個勁敵，養一隻老虎去咬台積電，怕它萬一做大，這你要去考慮一下，不要讓臺灣的企業辛辛苦苦卻白白奉獻給別人。","再來我要跟你談到第三點，IC的成熟製程。現在聯電是世界第四大，它要跟美國什麼格羅方德公司──第五大合併。我看是有可能，你們講不可能，報紙都寫你要去談判，你要好好談判，第一大的已經被拿走了，第二大又被拿走了，臺灣剩下什麼？跟我講、好好地講剩下什麼？你們自己心裡要知道，這臺灣的辛苦，你以前也是小企業，一直做到現在算起來也是一個中大企業，每一步每一步都是臺灣人辛苦，流血、流汗自己打造出來，窮苦的人家，沒有人保護你，只有自力更生，不要把臺灣打造到現在，你們就輕易奉送給別人，沒那麼偉大，可以去忍受就忍受。我就要跟你說，你要記得臺灣剩下什麼，我說臺灣的企業家就是游牧民族，哪裡有草就往哪裡去，很可憐！部長，你們執政8年，提了好幾個政策，我現在唸給你聽，第一個，歡迎臺商回臺投資行動方案，紅紅火火、熱熱鬧鬧，確實很多臺商回來。第二個根留臺灣企業，加速投資行動方案。再來，中小企業加速投資方案，這你們花了幾兆要顧臺灣的根，要根留臺灣，蔡英文當總統的時候就推動南向政策，鼓勵在大陸的臺商往東南亞去走。我今天又看到報紙，我們執政黨的賴主席──現在的賴總統說要脫中入北，我們要深化經貿，與美一起轉型，要以自由經濟的實力立足臺灣，布局全球，形成全球的臺灣，技術與人才相互依賴。講得很好聽、很感動！但是我仍然要強調，種族歧視很厲害，歐美的白種人永遠看不起黃種人，除了日本人稍微不受歧視之外，我要告訴你，這是根深蒂固的觀念。他說中國大陸是鄉巴佬，臺灣是不是鄉巴佬？你要去被糟蹋、被嘲笑，各種文化之間有許多不同之處，我現在懷疑你們是把臺灣這隻羊送入歐美白種人的虎口中！我們自己做經貿，你說臺灣的外交關係能保護多少臺商？我們都心知肚明！主席已經站起來了，我就不再多講，你也不需要回答，現在只是把我心中的感觸告訴你，慎思！慎思！臺灣這塊土地要顧好，現在執政黨東西南北都要，被你們搞得遊牧民族都不知道要把羊趕往哪個方向、哪邊有草可以吃！這些都是你們提出來的，8年時間的變化，東西南北征戰，臺商到現在一無所有，處於水深火熱的掙扎之中，他賺的外匯是要流入臺灣，你們真的要好好愛惜這塊土地。","最後，我要告訴你，中小企業會面臨一個痛苦期，我與台積電幾位高階主管聊過，處於痛苦期就要磨練自己的技術，要磨、要深化，提升自己的價值。如果臺灣沒有留住中小企業就沒有未來，因為臺灣中小企業真的是占了70%的就業人口，所以你不要去管大企業，他們現在錢多多，又具有國際經驗，可以自求生路，現在你應該要照顧的是中小企業。主席站了那麼久，我一談到執政黨，他就站起來……"],["主席：沒有。"],["陳委員超明：但我是真心為臺灣，而且我講的是經驗。"],["主席：花了一輩子的時間。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的提示。"],["陳委員超明：不是提示，感觸很深啦！你靠兩邊或許可以讓我們獲取更大的利益，為什麼一定要靠他？我們有技術、有本領！我們有獨一無二嘛！我相信你自己能感受得到，在自力更生、自立成長的過程中，我們是驕傲的臺灣，但是不要被執政黨出賣了，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，語重心長！請賴委員代理。"],["主席（賴委員瑞隆代）：請蔡易餘召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝昭偉 我們有請廖俊智院長好 有請院長萬委員好好 院長辛苦了我想今天的質詢到現在不論是我們葛如今昭偉或者是林一景昭偉以及我們所有的委員我想對於中研院的預算我們都是充分支持但是本於明代的職責嚴格審查那現在呢"},{"start":30.024,"end":44.543,"text":"一如过往这几年都一样过去的这个例子就是我们解冻的案子事实上到了四月了五月了那也提醒院长那我们有很多可能都是要靠这个书面报告提出来以后就可以申请解冻案那我想这个"},{"start":45.083,"end":67.382,"text":"醫警委員也很替中原醫院來設想葛如荊委員也很著急這個解凍案真的也要趕快送上來我們希望知道您的業務非常繁忙但是既然這麼急著預算恐怕在解凍的書面報告上面也要稍微花點心思我們回到我們今天的主題來看院長不知道有沒有看到"},{"start":68.222,"end":95.109,"text":"這個國科會的吳承文主委在日前他有表示他說台灣沒有諾貝爾獎的得主真是丟臉這話其實有一點重那我們中研院作為最高的研究單位也參與過很多的國際會議會集了無數的精英學者在這裡我們過去李遠哲前院長他是第一個獲獎的台灣人翁啟惠前院長也差一點點他其實就有可能會獲得諾貝爾獎"},{"start":97.029,"end":108.271,"text":"所以中研院可以說是可能會去催生出台灣這個本土諾貝爾獎得主的一個地方那你是如何看待吳主委這個語重心長的一個說法"},{"start":110.483,"end":130.123,"text":"諾貝爾講 他其實是要表彰對全人類有重大貢獻的研究這個我理解 但是他說我們一直沒有這個得主是丟臉的事情所以我們不能捨本逐末我們要先追求我們研究有沒有辦法對全世界人類造成重大貢獻"},{"start":132.645,"end":155.477,"text":"有很多很好貢獻的研究成果不一定拿到諾貝爾獎所以我們應該追求的是我理解您的說法那我請教您一您看當前我們台灣的學術環境以及研究經費等等的相關條件足不足夠能夠催生出我們本土諾貝爾獎的得主目前的客觀條件確實是比較困難"},{"start":156.978,"end":185.377,"text":"你覺得如果說是不夠的話是大概欠缺哪些地方?欠缺哪方面的條件?需要有一個很好的條件吸引很好的人才什麼樣的條件?需要薪水要很高然後研究經費要很多最重要就是全民要善待這些研究人員不要受政治干預太多希望說研究人員能夠專心做研究能夠鼓勵他們有企圖心往前衝"},{"start":186.218,"end":192.708,"text":"院長我想您講的這些本身都非常的認同真的非常認同但我們就是要慢慢朝這個方向去做不足的要想辦法補起來那當然你也參與過無數的國際會議了那也跟很多諾貝爾獎世界各國諾貝爾獎得主的交流過"},{"start":201.861,"end":226.693,"text":"所以您應該對於這個獲得諾貝爾獎的這個想法就像您剛剛所說的這樣那既然你有這麼多的想法那我們的這個吳主委也是就是求好心切的說出這樣的重話那我們的部長啊其實在當時有一些表述那不曉得這個說法之後您有沒有跟我們的吳主委還有鄭部長去討論過這個事情因為事實上我想我們三個部長兩個部長跟院長是息息相關的嘛"},{"start":227.884,"end":238.218,"text":"事實上之前我們也討論過類似的問題最主要是如何建構台灣一個很好的研究環境所以這個說法之後你們有討論過嗎就這個說法沒有針對這個說法討論過可能找個時間"},{"start":242.884,"end":269.442,"text":"跟一個人聊一聊我覺得對這個是會有幫助的好不好那當然我想在吳主委2月中旬說出這個言論之後我看到了就是中研院有發出一個新聞稿那你有說這個世界和平基金會啟動了一個台灣橋樑計畫要邀請這個中研院台大 清大等等我們在台灣很多知名的大學一起參與那要在11月今年的11月到2026明年的4月期間至少來接待至少25位"},{"start":272.344,"end":297.212,"text":"諾貝爾獎得主來台灣交流那我覺得聽到這個消息我覺得很棒那不曉得這是本來的既定計畫還是我們吳主委說完之後我們趕快來做了這個很早以前就既定計畫嘛那本席看到中研院負責邀請跟接待大概是十位諾貝爾獎得主那其中包含了這個諾貝爾和平獎一位物理學獎三位生理學跟醫學獎三位跟化學獎三位那不曉得就是來這麼"},{"start":298.952,"end":319.181,"text":"這麼棒的一個人才來這邊跟我們交流我們要用什麼樣的形式來跟他做交流那這個規劃什麼時候可以完成我們現在的交流形式第一個就是所有的得主他都會給一個公開演講這個公開演講是大家都可以去參與的不是只有中研院所以我們希望開放讓全民都可以聽到這個諾貝爾得獎組的演講"},{"start":322.062,"end":338.001,"text":"所有的大專院校所有的民眾都有機會是不是那很棒啊那這個相關的計畫這樣好不好我們沒有那麼多時間讓你全部闡述完但是我覺得這很重要能不能把書面的報告提供給我們辦公室好不好我其實覺得委員會的委員都可以知道一下好不好"},{"start":339.182,"end":359.954,"text":"那我想那個積蓄院長,鄭當道別院長得主來台交流是非常有助於我們這個學術、眼界也好、經驗也好嘛那可是我看到這一次我們這個台灣橋樑計畫是由這個世界和平基金會來主辦的我擔心是不是就只有這一次那如果感覺這是很好的有沒有可能未來是由我們中研院來把它變成常態性的計畫"},{"start":361.054,"end":382.988,"text":"我們一直都每年都有邀請兩三位諾貝爾獎得主來院演講這一次是因為這個和平基金會他要一次邀請這麼多他輪流在世界不同的國家做這樣的活動所以明年不太可能再有二十幾位也沒那麼多諾貝爾獎了沒有關係我想因為要做到這樣子要做到這樣子恐怕做成常態性他是有難度的"},{"start":383.648,"end":398.407,"text":"但是像您說的兩位三位五位八位我覺得其實真的可以我覺得眾議院常態性來做這件事如果這次的經驗又可以作為一個很好的一個吸收未來我們就這樣做好不好我們幾乎每年至少有一位幾乎好我們繼續加強接下來我想繼續請教一下廖院長"},{"start":400.229,"end":414.765,"text":"我看到你3月26号接受媒体的专访那这个议题上面都绕着我们国家的能源跟科技发展那不管是这个净零核能AI量子科技生技等等那你还提出了这个净零五支箭那整个看起来"},{"start":415.185,"end":431.41,"text":"好像都是比較在這個著重在科學研究但是事實上我們按照中研院主持法第二條規定我們其實還有這個人文社會科學的一個研究那去年我們在審查預算的時候我記憶還猶新我們所有的這個委員大家其實都在講說過去我們都在講說"},{"start":433.151,"end":455.927,"text":"這個中研院是重理工輕人文我們也希望能夠在這個人文跟社會科學上面多下點功夫但是這個訪談當中我們沒有看到這個相關的計畫不知道是不是就是這幾年來我們還是沒有在人文科學上面做一些比較這個相關的計畫或是琢磨那倒不是這樣我們在人文方面投資非常多譬如說我們有這個人文精英獎學金計畫我們就"},{"start":457.988,"end":484.065,"text":"資助全台灣的人文界的博士生每年挑選15位郵政院的資助好 那院長那天為什麼沒有提到沒有問到而已沒有問到好像我沒有提到只是沒有登出來好像我沒有提到就是有提到對 但是我看到有一些你也會把它主動提起來嘛那我們想就是說如果從你口中說出來應該是現在覺得非常重視的因為我們這個提過好幾次所以記者可能認為說未來我想這個方向"},{"start":484.825,"end":501.972,"text":"還是要加強好不好那再來我想說我們再來談一下我們今天談到很多國家能源發展還有淨零轉型院長您也是國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人我們來討論一件事情也就是說在今年的我們看到是在這個"},{"start":503.452,"end":519.685,"text":"1月23号公布的国家减碳新目标的草案当中相较于基准年就2005我们的目标是2032年要减量32%左右然后2035年要减量38%但是您知道第一阶段的2020年的目标是要减碳多少吗"},{"start":521.586,"end":532.2,"text":"我忘記2020要減淡多少2%但是我們做到了嗎沒有你都不知道要減淡多少都知道沒有做到我知道說沒有達成差一點2%但我們只做到1.89%"},{"start":535.845,"end":564.247,"text":"在2025年的時候我們的目標是要這個能夠減10%但是我們去看2021年我們沒有減反而增加了2.22%2023年的時候我們反而增加了10.39%那你要怎麼樣在第二階段的2025年能夠達到這個減10%的一個這個基準這個我真的很懷疑啦所以我們按照這個數據看起來我們是這個叫做碳排量不減反增而且我們想要這個目標做出來越減越多"},{"start":565.248,"end":587.968,"text":"那這個怎麼會是這樣能不能說明一下這部分這個因為不是中央醫院的全責範圍我們只是從科技的角度看怎麼樣幫忙國家減碳我們不設定減碳的目標那我們盡量能夠做多少做多少那最後請教一下這個減碳這個越減越多您知道台灣前十大碳盤事業是什麼嗎"},{"start":592.741,"end":617.135,"text":"從供給量來講台灣的碳排有50%是來自發電來我跟您提好了前十大的碳排七個發電廠兩個鋼鐵一個石化所以院長你曾經以多次以科學家的身份說台灣不能全依賴綠能但也不能全依賴核能這個淨零不能排除任何一種能源但事實上我們的發電如果沒有辦法轉型為低碳或者綠能是很難達到這個淨零碳排的你認為是嗎"},{"start":618.595,"end":634.461,"text":"對是的好所以我想去年我們質詢了去碳燃氣的技術之外那中研院正在發展這個高效能的太陽能板來增加原有的發電量希望達到50%那我想請教一下那我們這個高效太陽能板什麼時候可以研製出來來進行計轉委員在這裡"},{"start":639.468,"end":651.464,"text":"今天就有啊昨天出來的30%的高效太陽板全部都是國內自研自製連設備都是國內製的真的很棒啊非常好我們詳細請李超常主任來說明一下"},{"start":654.428,"end":672.129,"text":"我是關鍵中心主任李超黃 那麼目前這個技術我們在3月26號有開了一個技術說明會那麼國內主要的太陽能廠商 相關的廠商也都有派代表來參加那麼目前已經有兩家這個相當大的大廠有表示意願要加入這個研發聯盟"},{"start":673.49,"end":697.866,"text":"好那最後一個問題我就問院長一句話我們剛剛在講說既然我們都研發出來了那你有沒有信心在你的目標2032年跟2035年能達到減碳32%跟38%的目標這方面我沒有仔細來估算因為我們不是全責單位所以至於實際減碳多少這不是中央醫院的全責所以很抱歉這方面我沒有記住"},{"start":698.086,"end":706.855,"text":"但是我們希望各部會我們還是要橫向聯繫那不是說這個不是我的那我覺得大家橫向聯繫才有辦法達到目標好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":628,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時21分）謝謝召委，有請廖俊智院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：院長辛苦了。我想，今天的質詢到現在，不論是我們的葛如鈞召委或林宜瑾召委，以及我們所有的委員，對於中研院的預算，我們都是充分支持，但是本於民代的職責嚴格審查。現在一如過往，這幾年都一樣，過去的例子就是我們解凍的案子事實上到了4月、5月了，那也提醒院長，有很多案子可能都是要靠書面報告提出來以後就可以申請解凍，宜瑾委員也很替中研院設想，葛如鈞委員也很著急，解凍案真的也要趕快送上來，我們知道您的業務非常繁忙，但是既然這麼急著通過預算，恐怕解凍的書面報告上面也要稍微花一點心思。","我們回到今天的主題來看，院長不知道有沒有看到，國科會的吳誠文主委日前表示，臺灣沒有諾貝爾獎得主，真是丟臉。這話其實有一點重，我們中研院作為最高的研究單位，也參與過很多國際會議，匯集了無數菁英學者在這裡，過去李遠哲前院長是第一個獲獎的臺灣人，翁啟惠前院長也差一點點就可能獲得諾貝爾獎，所以中研院可以說是可能會催生出臺灣本土諾貝爾獎得主的一個地方，你是如何看待吳主委這個語重心長的說法？"],["廖院長俊智：諾貝爾獎其實是要表彰對全人類有重大貢獻的研究，所以……"],["萬委員美玲：這個我理解，但是他說我們一直沒有諾貝爾獎得主是丟臉的事情。"],["廖院長俊智：所以我們不能捨本逐末，我們要先追求我們研究有沒有辦法對全世界人類造成重大貢獻，有很多很好貢獻的研究成果，不一定拿到諾貝爾獎，所以我們應該追求的是……"],["萬委員美玲：好，我理解您的說法，我請教您，依您看，當前我們臺灣的學術環境及研究經費等等相關條件，足不足夠催生出我們本土諾貝爾獎的得主？"],["廖院長俊智：目前的客觀條件確實是比較困難，那現在的科學……"],["萬委員美玲：如果說是不夠的話，大概欠缺哪些地方？欠缺哪方面的條件？"],["廖院長俊智：需要有一個很好的條件吸引很好的人才。"],["萬委員美玲：什麼樣的條件？"],["廖院長俊智：薪水要很高，然後研究經費要很多，最重要就是全民要善待這些研究人員，不要受政治干預太多，希望說研究人員能夠專心做研究，能夠鼓勵他們有企圖心往前衝，不要有後顧之憂。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，你講的這些，本席都非常認同，真的非常認同，但我們就是要慢慢朝這個方向去做，不足的要想辦法把它補起來。當然你也參與過無數的國際會議，也跟很多世界各國諾貝爾獎得主交流過，所以您對於獲得諾貝爾獎的想法，應該就像您剛剛所說的這樣，既然您有這麼多的想法，吳主委也是求好心切，說出這樣的重話，我們的部長其實在當時有一些表述，不曉得這個說法出現之後，你有沒有跟吳主委和部長討論過這個事情？因為事實上部長跟院長兩位是息息相關的。"],["廖院長俊智：事實上我們之前也討論類似的問題，最主要是如何建構臺灣一個很好的研究環境……"],["萬委員美玲：所以這個說法出來之後，你們有討論過嗎？就這個說法。"],["廖院長俊智：沒有針對這個說法討論過。"],["萬委員美玲：可能要找個時間，三個人聊一聊，我覺得對這個是會有幫助的，好不好？吳主委2月中旬說出這個言論之後，我看到了中研院有發出一個新聞稿，你有說世界和平基金會啟動了一個臺灣橋梁計畫，邀請中研院、臺大、清大等等臺灣很多知名大學一起參與，要在今年11月到明年4月這段期間接待至少25位諾貝爾獎得主來臺灣交流，我聽到這個消息覺得很棒，不曉得這是本來的既定計畫，還是吳主委說完之後趕快來做的？"],["廖院長俊智：這個是很早以前就……"],["萬委員美玲：是既定計畫嘛？"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["萬委員美玲：本席看到中研院負責邀請跟接待大概10位諾貝爾獎得主，其中包含了諾貝爾和平獎得主1位、物理學獎得主3位、生理學跟醫學獎得主3位、化學獎得主3位，這麼棒的人才來這邊跟我們交流，我們要用什麼樣的形式來跟他們交流？這個規劃什麼時候可以完成？"],["孟處長子青：萬委員，國際處處長報告。我們現在的交流形式，第一個就是所有得主都會有一場公開演講，這個公開演講是大家都可以去參與的，不是只有中研院，所以我們希望開放，讓全民都可以聽到諾貝爾獎得主的演講。"],["萬委員美玲：所有的大專院校、所有的民眾都有機會，是不是？"],["孟處長子青：是，這是完全開放的。"],["萬委員美玲：那很棒啊，我沒有那麼多時間讓你全部闡述完，但是我覺得這很重要，能不能把書面報告提供給我們辦公室，好不好？"],["孟處長子青：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我其實覺得委員會的委員都可以知道一下，好不好？"],["孟處長子青：謝謝，好。"],["萬委員美玲：我繼續請教院長。諾貝爾獎得主來臺交流，非常有助於我們的學術發展，不管是拓展眼界也好，增加經驗也好，可是我看到，這一次臺灣橋梁計畫是由世界和平基金會主辦的，我擔心是不是就只有這一次，感覺這是很好的，有沒有可能未來還是由我們中研院來把它變成常態性的計畫？"],["廖院長俊智：我們每年都有邀請兩、三位諾貝爾獎得主來院演講，這次是因為和平基金會要一次邀請這麼多人，輪流在世界不同的國家做這樣的活動，所以明年不太可能再有二十幾位，也沒那麼多諾貝爾獎得主，所以我會持續邀請……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有關係，因為要做到這樣子，做成常態性的活動，恐怕是有難度的。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["萬委員美玲：但就像您說的，請2位、3位、5位、8位，我覺得中研院真的可以常態性來做這件事，如果這次可以吸收很好的經驗，未來我們就這樣做，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：我們幾乎每年至少有一位。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們繼續加強。","接下來我想繼續請教一下廖院長，我看到你3月26日接受媒體的專訪，議題上面都繞著我們國家的能源跟科技發展，不管是淨零核能、AI、量子科技、生技等等，你還提出了「淨零五支箭」，整個看起來好像都是比較著重在科學研究，但是事實上按照中研院組織法第二條規定，中研院其實還有人文社會科學的研究，去年我們在審查預算的時候，我記憶猶新，所有委員都在說，過去都說中研院重理工、輕人文，希望能夠在人文跟社會科學上面多下點工夫，但是在院長的訪談當中，我沒有看到相關的計畫，不知道是不是這幾年來中研院還是沒有在人文科學上面做一些比較相關的計畫或是著墨？"],["廖院長俊智：倒不是這樣，我們在人文方面投資非常多，譬如說，我們有人文菁英獎學金計畫，我們就資助全臺灣人文界的博士生，每年挑選15位，由中研院資助。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，那天為什麼沒有提到？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有問到。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有問到。"],["廖院長俊智：好像我後面有提到，但是沒有登出來。"],["萬委員美玲：對。但是我看到有一些，你也會主動提起來，那我們想，如果從你口中說出來，應該是現在非常重視的。"],["廖院長俊智：因為我們提過好幾次，所以記者可能認為講過了。"],["萬委員美玲：這個方向我們還是要加強，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我們再來談一下，我們現在談到很多國家能源發展和淨零轉型，院長，您也是國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人，我們來討論一件事情，在今年1月23日公布的國家減碳新目標的草案當中，相較於基準年2005年，我們的目標是2032年要減量32%左右，然後2035年要減量38%，但是您知道第一階段2020年的目標是要減碳多少嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我忘記2020年要減碳多少。"],["萬委員美玲：2%。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["萬委員美玲：但是我們做到了嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：你都不知道要減碳多少，你都知道沒有做到。"],["廖院長俊智：我知道說我們……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有達成。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["萬委員美玲：差一點，目標是2%，但是我們只做到1.89%。到2025年的時候，我們的目標是減10%，但是我們去看2021年，我們沒有減，反而增加了2.22%。2023年的時候，我們反而增加了10.39%，那你要怎麼樣在第二階段的2025年能夠達到減10%的基準？我真的很懷疑。所以我們按照這個數據看起來，我們的碳排量不減反增，而且我們想要的目標，做出來的結果卻是越減越多，怎麼會是這樣？能不能說明一下？"],["廖院長俊智：這部分因為不是中研院的權責範圍，我們只是從科技的角度看怎麼樣幫忙國家減碳，我們不設定減碳的目標，我們儘量能夠做多少就做多少。"],["萬委員美玲：好。最後我請教一下，減碳越減越多，你知道臺灣前十大碳排事業是什麼嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：從供給量來講，臺灣的碳排有50%是來自發電。"],["萬委員美玲：我跟你提好了，前十大碳排是7個發電廠、2個鋼鐵廠、1個石化，所以院長你曾經也多次以科學家身分說臺灣不能全依賴綠能，但也不能全依賴核能，淨零不能排除任何一種能源，但事實上，我們的發電如果沒有辦法轉型為低碳或綠能，是很難達到淨零碳排的，您認為是嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["萬委員美玲：是的。所以去年我們質詢了去碳燃氫的技術之外，中研院正在發展高效能的太陽能板來增加原有的發電量，希望達到50%，我想請教一下，這個高效太陽能板什麼時候可以研製出來進行技轉？"],["廖院長俊智：委員，在這裡。"],["萬委員美玲：喔！今天就有？"],["廖院長俊智：昨天出來的30%高效太陽能板，全部都是國內自研自製，連設備都是國內製的。"],["萬委員美玲：喔！真的很棒，非常好，非常棒。"],["廖院長俊智：我請主任來說明。"],["萬委員美玲：好，來說明一下。"],["李副執行秘書兼主任超煌：委員好，我是關鍵中心主任李超煌。目前這個技術，我們在3月26日有開了一個技術說明會，國內主要的太陽能相關廠商也都有派代表來參加，目前已經有兩家相當大的大廠有表示意願要加入這個研發聯盟。"],["萬委員美玲：好，最後一個問題，我就問院長一句話，我們剛剛在講說，既然我們都研發出來了，你有沒有信心在你的目標2032年跟2035年能達到減碳32%和38%的目標？"],["廖院長俊智：這方面我沒有仔細來估算，因為我們不是權責單位，所以實際減碳多少不是中研院的權責，所以很抱歉，這方面我不能……"],["萬委員美玲：好，但是我們希望各部會還是要橫向聯繫，不是說這個不是我的，我覺得大家橫向聯繫才有辦法達到目標，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員。院長請回。","我們接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97125320b6d54d381213803d2cc4ed6173071a30f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各高等法院得因這是有授權給你沒有錯 你看但其加徵的這個數額不得超過原額數的十分之五 對 二分之一嘛你這本用最上線這條欸跟委員報告 對不對而且那個是最普遍的人 對不對最普遍的人 我給你看 因為你已經用了一分鐘我給你看一下了 來"},{"start":201.055,"end":219.868,"text":"已經十萬塊以下的 已經十萬塊以下的原裁判費是一千嘛對不對你這邊要跳幾元錢 這個拉得太大了如果是一百萬的 以前要花一萬九百塊喔你現在一下跳到一萬三千兩百塊錢那如果是一千塊的這個標的十萬 一下跳到十一萬八千五百塊錢這個幅度真的太大了啦"},{"start":228.766,"end":253.312,"text":"不是你講的一點啦太大一點那個忽密披薩最近有引起一個很大爭議就是那個進口那個3C產品750塊之亂有沒有是是你這樣下去也是變成會是一個新的750塊之亂啊現在是很多陳情說調太高了啦我覺得有沒有750塊後來就連行政院長都出來踩煞車嘛對不對NC也踩煞車我覺得適度看用什麼方式這個幅度有機會可以稍微再調調降嗎"},{"start":255.728,"end":273.914,"text":"我可以再讓我解釋一下就是說其實我們那個所謂的那個調招十分之五有沒有這個只有在十萬以下的就是說小額那我們是希望說民眾因為台灣事實上使用那個訴訟的成本真的非常低我們希望民眾就是說他們有紛爭的時候他們可以想一下說"},{"start":274.754,"end":296.521,"text":"到法院來這是不是一個好的一個經濟的符合他們經濟的一個效益所以我們是把十萬以下這個地方就是做一個大幅度那反而是說像那個一千萬或者是說數額比較高的這個條幅都比較低啊就是因為那個十萬以下的最多嘛我給你看那個案件數你看一下這個影響的人最多啊對不對你對那個最多的人調的最大要嘛你就那個最高的人調高一點啦"},{"start":303.979,"end":309.321,"text":"是不是這樣弄得對 你看10萬以下的這個建築占你112年的時候占你所有樹中縣市的41.24在111年的時候也是41點多"},{"start":320.104,"end":333.552,"text":"這比例是最大宗嘛結果你影響的人影響的人最多然後你調的幅度又是二分之一那怎麼對 應該是對的應該是訴訟費用越高的人調越多啊是不是這樣啊結果你現在最多人的影響最大啊應該對的嘛"},{"start":335.433,"end":353.921,"text":"委員可不可以容我再說明一下因為這地方其實是有一個司法政策的一個考量因為台灣真的進入到使用訴訟的那個太容易進來了那事實上我們有很多的像我們有調解各種的那個機制可以使用那所以是讓人民呢就是說他在十萬以下就是說那個"},{"start":355.461,"end":375.451,"text":"就是說這一種標的不是很大的他可以去想一想這叫什麼以價自量你應該對如果有爛數或者胡亂去提的人你要有一部分那個機制去解決那一部分嘛你問那部分然後去影響到多數人對不對啊邏輯是不是這樣你邏輯應該比我好啊你耳環多了沒有"},{"start":379.268,"end":406.507,"text":"對啊 如果是你講的那一部分 那應該去處理那一部分啊不要影響到最多人了啦我知道今天這樣問當然 因為你已經開始實施了嘛很多人來請願嘛 來陳情嘛這個結果弄到後來就是有些人就打不起官司嘛 對不對是不是這樣 那你應該適度我說我剛剛已經跟你講一個很重要的就是那個影響最多人那個你這次調稅都調二分之一五十趴嘛 那錢也不多啊從那邊去做一個適度的調整好不好如果真的是金額很高的 老蔣我也沒有太大意見"},{"start":407.927,"end":429.395,"text":"現在多數人多數人那一塊 你再想一下好不好所以我具體的要求 來 看起來我具體要求第一項我們來檢討這個裁判費的收費的這個基準適度去調降一部分我本來是要整體要調的可是我今天很明確的跟你們講你針對那個比較比較多的一般民眾會碰到的那個那部分做一個適度的調整第二個對於弱勢跟這個"},{"start":430.535,"end":455.862,"text":"低收入不法 平均所得比較低的訴訟費用你給一些優惠或者提供所需要的幫忙這你本來有在做對不對有在做是不是第二點 你現在那個司法院有在做這一塊嗎就是法律明白規定的訴訟救助制度對會做嗎 是來 第三你應該是先請去做一些司法改革落實司法的爭議以後再來檢討這個裁判我剛才說你要答應你要調高之前要先去回去做自己的檢討第四個"},{"start":458.303,"end":466.511,"text":"你不要變成是以價去質量你應該去檢討那個 如果有些人是爛數或者他剛剛跟你講的很容易進來 你就做一部分的處理好不好要再給你30秒嗎 可以嗎這4點你給我一個比較具體的回應好不好 來現在回應嗎要給你多少時間 你要帶回去檢討嗎"},{"start":480.458,"end":503.676,"text":"因為第一二項剛才已經有跟委員報告過了就是說司法院當時就是這個其實主要是高院高院的權責高院所那個調的啦那就是說當時的那些那個考量跟那個司法政策剛好跟委員報告過那委員就是有其他的那個指示的話我覺得這個部分我們是我們可以再做一些那個研議啊"},{"start":504.116,"end":523.767,"text":"那至於說三四這個部分我想這是一個並行的沒錯就是說我們怎麼樣去提供一個人民比較好的那個司法給付這個確實是我們那個司法行政一直就是我們應該要去做的事情那這個我們也知道說我們一定必須也要就是就是更更好的那個落實了但是"},{"start":525.086,"end":545.692,"text":"台灣的司法資源其實不只是台灣全世界都面臨司法資源非常短缺所以我們現在我必須為我們同仁說一些話就是說我們同仁過勞的情形不管是法官或是書記官都非常非常的過勞所以我們一直呼籲就是說我們的民眾當然他們有困難"},{"start":546.992,"end":568.459,"text":"國家必須提供一個司法給付這是應該的那但是也是希望說他們在使用這個的時候呢能夠真正很慎重的去那個考量那我想這個是一點那至於說那個爛數呢這個確實是我們一直就是一直有在做的那但是也許幅度我覺得還可以再更多的那個精進那也謝謝委員就是跟我們這一些指導"},{"start":569.179,"end":596.488,"text":"司法人員很辛苦啦我老實講普遍上水準也是很高啦你們應該有的預算我們會支持也幫你們加油所以不用客氣你們該有的要跟爭取我相信不是只有台灣民眾黨大部分的立委應該都會支持這沒有問題好不好可是老實講可是如果發生了司法人員發生了像中文職這種事情臉上就無光了我知道你們也非常生氣啦我今天只有問兩個比較簡單的別累那邱忠義跟那個陳永松啊"},{"start":597.577,"end":613.367,"text":"你們除了把這個邱中義那個庭長拔掉之後你們說要開始要調查跟送評鑑嘛對不對是現在進度怎麼樣這事情不能拖太久跟委員報告那個就是送法評的申請書在昨天已經送到法評會了"},{"start":614.247,"end":637.569,"text":"昨天送到法律部現在全民都在盯著 所以就是要快啦 不能夠拖延而且這個整個開過那個過程 我覺得要比較對人民要是有一個比較清楚的說明人民現在擔心的是蓋牌啦或者不清楚啦 我們看最後這個Ending最近你有看到那個台灣民意基金會1月份有一個調查嘛"},{"start":640.09,"end":662.855,"text":"1月份的這個調查 超過49.2%的民眾對司法是沒有信心的那你講 你說司法是皇后的貞操嘛現在看起來有一半的人民對司法是有有些話問號的所以中文字這個事情最近司法院碰到一些問題加快加速給人民一個清楚的交代 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":667.899,"end":669.829,"text":"謝謝,那下一位我們請鄭正前委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時20分）請司法院王梅英副秘。"],["主席：好，副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員您好。"],["張委員啓楷：副秘，司法的正義公平很重要，更不能夠讓人民打不起官司，最近訴訟裁判費怎麼一下子漲那麼多？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，可以給我一、兩分鐘報告嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：很多人都在陳情欸，你們搞到人民都打不起官司，你缺錢缺成這樣喔！好，1分鐘，好不好？短一點，我才5分鐘，你拿走1分鐘，請。"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，第一個，事實上這是有法源依據，就是說法院是可以調的，我們法院端在民國92年調了之後，這是二十幾年來第一次調，因為我們收了裁判費之後，所有花的費用像法官可能要出差，或者是食宿、車費，還有最重要的油資，事實上都是這些錢，二十幾年來，就是說有去查我們的消費者物價指數，不管是油、電或者是基本工資調漲了17%到66%，我們這一次其實增加的幅度只有一點。另外，其實司法及法制委員會也曾兩度在這裡開公聽會，也有委員主張增加。最後一個跟委員報告的是，其實整個制度的設計都有考慮到弱勢者，因為大部分的這些費用是一般人用的，但是弱勢者的部分都有考慮到，就是說如果他們真的繳不起的時候，其實都有訴訟救助。最後，事實上只是預徵，就是打贏的時候，那個費用事實上還是有轉嫁，謝謝委員給我時間報告。"],["張委員啓楷：副秘，其實很多人來陳情所說的不是你剛剛講的一點，而是調太大點了，我們看一下這個條文，本來第七十七條之二十七的最大調幅就是二分之一，我是說你這個調幅。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：第七十七條之二十七規定「本法應徵收之裁判費，各高等法院得因……」這是有授權給你，沒有錯，「但其加徵之額數，不得超過原額數十分之五。」，也就是等於二分之一，你這次用最上限去調，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，我們是……"],["張委員啓楷：而且那個是最普遍的人，對不對？我給你看一下，因為你已經用了1分鐘，我給你看一下。以前10萬塊以下的標的，裁判費是1,000元，對不對？你這次一跳就跳二分之一，這個拉得太大了，如果是100萬的標的，以前要花1萬900塊，你現在一下跳到1萬3,200塊錢，如果是1,000萬的標的，從10萬一下跳到11萬8,500塊錢，這個幅度真的太大了啦，不是你講的一點，而是太大一點。副秘，你知道最近有引起一個很大的爭議，就是進口3C產品的750塊之亂，有沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在這樣下去也是會變成一個新的750塊之亂啊！現在有很多人陳情說調太高了啦！像750塊的部分，後來連行政院長都出來踩煞車嘛，對不對？NCC也踩煞車。我覺得要適度，看看用什麼方式，這個幅度有機會可以稍微再調降嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，再讓我解釋一下，其實所謂調高十分之五，這個只有在10萬以下的，就是小額的，因為臺灣事實上使用訴訟的成本真的非常低，我們希望民眾一旦有紛爭的時候，他們可以想一下到法院來是不是一個好的、經濟的、符合他們的經濟效益，所以我們是把10萬以下這個地方做一個大幅度的調整，反而是像1,000萬或者數額比較高的，調幅都比較低，就是說沒有這麼高。"],["張委員啓楷：就是因為10萬以下的最多嘛，我給你看案件數，你看一下，這個影響的人最多啊，對不對？你對最多的人調得最大，要嘛你就是最高的那邊調高一點，是不是應該這樣調才對？你看10萬以下的件數在112年的時候占所有訴訟件數的41.24%，在111年的時候也是百分之四十一點多，這個比例是最大宗嘛！結果影響的人最多，然後你調的幅度又是二分之一，這樣對嗎？應該倒過來才對嘛！應該是訴訟費用越高的人調越多啊！是不是這樣？結果你現在占最多人的卻影響最大，應該要倒過來嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，可不可以容我再說明一下？這個地方其實是有一個司法政策的考量，因為臺灣真的進入到使用訴訟……太容易進來了，事實上，我們有很多像調解等等各種的機制可以使用，所以標的在10萬以下，就是說這種標的不是很大的，讓人民可以去想一下……"],["張委員啓楷：那變成以價制量？你如果有濫訴或者浮濫去提的人，你要有一部分的機制去處理那部分嘛，你因為那部分而去影響到多數人，這樣就不對了啊！邏輯是不是這樣？你邏輯應該比我好，你是學法律的啊！如果是你講的那部分，應該去處理那部分啊，不要影響到最多人的啦！我知道今天這樣問，因為你已經開始實施了，很多人來請願、陳情，這個結果弄到後來就是有些人打不起官司，對不對？是不是這樣？那你應該要適度，我剛剛已經跟你講一個很重要的，就是影響最多人的你這次調最多，調二分之一、50%嘛，錢也不多啊！從那邊去做一個適度的調整，好不好？如果真的是金額很高的，老實講我也沒有太大意見，所以現在針對多數人那一塊，你再想一下好不好？我現在提出具體的要求，第一個是檢討裁判費的收費基準，適度去調降一部分，我本來是希望整體調整，可是我今天很明確的跟你講，你針對那個比較多的，一般民眾會碰到的那個部分做一個適度的調整。第二個，對於弱勢跟低收入戶那些平均所得比較低者的訴訟費用，給予一些優惠，或者提供所需要的幫忙，這些本來就有在做對不對？有在做是不是？第二個的部分，司法院有在做這一塊嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，就是法律明白規定的訴訟解除制度。"],["張委員啓楷：有嘛！會做嘛，OK。","第三個，你們應該是先去做一些司法改革，落實司法正義以後，再來檢討這個裁判費，我感覺你們搞反了，你們調高之前要先針對自己的部分做檢討。第四個，你不一定要變成以價去制量，你應該去檢討那些濫訴的部分，或者像你剛剛講的很容易進來，你就做一部分的處理，好不好？請針對以上四點給我一個比較具體的回應，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：現在回應嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：要幾天？要給你多少時間？你要帶回去檢討嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：第二點剛才已經有跟委員報告過了，其實這主要是高院的權責，是高院調的，當時的那些考量跟司法政策，剛才也跟委員報告過，委員有其他指示的話，我覺得這個部分我們可以再做一些研議。至於第三點及第四點的部分，我想這是並行的，就是我們怎麼樣去提供人民比較好的司法給付，這確實是司法行政應該做的事情，我們也知道必須要更好的落實，但是就臺灣的司法資源，其實不只是臺灣，全世界都面臨司法資源極為短缺的問題。在此我必須為同仁說一些話，就是同仁過勞的情形，不管是法官或是書記官都非常非常的過勞，所以我們也一直呼籲，當然民眾有困難的話，國家必須提供司法給付是應該的，但是也希望他們在使用這個的時候，能夠真正很慎重的去考量，這個是一點。","至於濫訴的部分，確實是我們一直有在做的，也許幅度還可以再有更多的精進，也謝謝委員給我們這一些指導。"],["張委員啓楷：司法人員很辛苦啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：普遍上水準也是很高啦，你們應該有的預算，我們會支持，也幫你們加油，所以不用客氣，你們該有的要更爭取，我相信不是只有台灣民眾黨，大部分的立委應該都會支持，這沒有問題，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：可是老實講，司法院發生了像鍾文智這種事情，臉上就無光了，我知道你們也非常生氣啦，我今天只有問兩個比較簡單的。有關邱忠義跟陳勇松，你們除了把邱忠義庭長拔掉之後，還說要開始調查跟送評鑑，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在進度怎麼樣？這事情不能拖太久耶！"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，送法評的申請書昨天已經送到法評會了。"],["張委員啓楷：昨天送到法評會了，OK，那有進度。現在全民都在盯著，所以就是要快啦，好不好？不能夠拖延。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：而且整個的過程，我覺得對人民要有一個比較清楚的說明，人民現在擔心的是蓋牌或者不清楚，所以要看最後的ending。","另外，台灣民意基金會1月份有一個調查，超過49.2%的民眾對司法是沒有信心的，像副秘書長是念司法的，我們都說司法是皇后的貞操，現在看起來有一半的人民對司法是劃上問號的，對鍾文智這個事情，最近司法院碰到一些問題，要加快、加速，給人民一個清楚交代，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：一起努力。"],["主席：鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，副秘書長，我剛剛那個要求，一個月內可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以。"],["主席：就麻煩一個月內。","請林委員月琴。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160084","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160084","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97122aaa0d9a87ccc9d939fb4699fde532611a30f584bceeba990b4769cd08d8a1da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:17:41 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24,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請這個央行 央總裁央總裁請"},{"start":18.44,"end":45.436,"text":"李委員早部長好辛苦了我還記得我們在3月27號的時候還有這個針對所謂的什麼川普政府對等關稅策略與我國被列入骯髒15國名單有來做一個專案報告結果發現不是骯髒15國一公佈的時候發現全世界都有不過我看了一下當時候的這個央行的這個報告"},{"start":47.417,"end":69.375,"text":"其實你們那時候說到說台灣跟美國的關稅的差距啦這個如果按照這一個貿易加權平均的關稅來計算的話台灣是1.7%美國是2.2%其實台灣還低於美國0.5個百分點那如果按照簡單平均的關稅來算一算台灣呢是6.5那高於美國的這個3.2%多了3.3%"},{"start":73.998,"end":97.67,"text":"就是說從當時候三月底的這一個報告來看的話總裁有想到說最後川普的算法是這樣子的嗎沒有因為我認為我當時我們的推論是說第一個我對等你講對等關稅因為對等我們加權平均都比你低當然雖然就是說簡單平均我們比他高沒有錯而且主要的就是來農產品"},{"start":99.391,"end":126.292,"text":"但是也就是3.3而已啊對嘛 那這是第一點第二點呢 我們也認為就是說事實上呢台灣最近幾年對你的粗糙呢這些的產品都是你最需要的而且對你很有貢獻的對你的經濟發展很有貢獻所以那時候你是說其實是產業的互補對 是互補啊不是不公平貿易嘛我們的這些產品包括SERVER這些AI SERVER這些對它的那個生產力的提升"},{"start":127.546,"end":146.805,"text":"還有就是對他國防安全航太領域這些都有貢獻的所以我們才會覺得就是說應該不至於對我們台灣的這個對等關稅會扣那麼高所以那時候一個最壞的這個預想的一個策略會被課到多少那時候"},{"start":147.105,"end":163.95,"text":"那時候他也有提到基本是10%那時候頂多我們也是想大概是10%那你現在就是說他是用那個公式是非常不合理的就是說用第一個他是用你對他的逆差第二個除上你對他的一個出口所以這個方案是你們從來沒有想過沒有想到"},{"start":172.432,"end":197.543,"text":"那現在又從32%又降到10%了又回到這個基礎關稅來了那總裁想說這中間的轉折是怎麼樣這美國自己也受不了了嗎我也覺得是這樣子因為剛剛我也在講就是說第一個他也沒有想到就是說他的這個對等關稅一公佈了之後呢事實上最先反映的是他本國的"},{"start":198.263,"end":214.538,"text":"他的股市整個股市你看跌的那麼多那其他的國家的股市呢也就隨著多跌所以呢而且連續的他如果說不做這樣的一個踩煞車的時候呢就是說有這三個月的一個緩衝期的話那這樣的話呢股市下去的話是會崩盤的所以總裁認為說川普的轉折是跟自己國內的這一個股市"},{"start":224.907,"end":244.897,"text":"還有剛剛也有委員談到就是說他的公債的利率這樣彈升上來他也會有一點怕為什麼呢美國財政部特別是美國財政部他都希望他的長期的公債的殖利率能夠下來那沒有想到就是說他下來到3.9幾的時候最近又爬到4.33所以他也太緊張了"},{"start":248.399,"end":250.702,"text":"所以我是覺得4.33對美國財政部的財政負擔是蠻大的所以我覺得這就是一個轉折點無論如何也爭取到三個月時間了那三個月時間總裁有什麼樣的建議嗎"},{"start":263.356,"end":273.845,"text":"所以我總覺得我剛剛也是在講就是說三個月的時間當然大家就整個市場就說鬆了一口氣鬆了一口氣你看看美國的股市都是每個都上漲"},{"start":280.59,"end":296.125,"text":"他的reaction就是利多嘛包括我相信亞洲的大概也是台灣的也是嘛不過呢我剛剛也在講就是說事實上呢因為三個月只是這個時間而已三個月時間如果說大家要來談判的話三個月是足夠長"},{"start":299.688,"end":323.807,"text":"可以讓他美國跟這些國家來談就台灣來講總裁也是很好啊但是問題還是有什麼優先來做的但是問題就是說這個三個月也是很長的三個月很長的話整個的金融市場還是因為他的uncertainty他的不確定性還是依然存在因為不曉得他的 outcome 是什麼"},{"start":325.188,"end":345.539,"text":"所以也就是說在這段期間股市還有包括其他匯市債市也都是一樣的它還是會上上下下上上下下而且波動度也應該從上一次的波動非常大的之後它可能會減少波動但是它的波動度還是會大的好"},{"start":347.04,"end":374.043,"text":"那我請教一下那這樣子對於台灣的經濟的成長率會不會有影響本來預估是大概是3.14那現在就是說會受到影響有可能最差會到1.4%那好一點的話2.6%那總裁這邊的想法咧我覺得所以也就是說在這一次的評估裡面我們就沒有把我們的評估把它揭露出來為什麼因為我們總覺得這是一個uncertainty"},{"start":374.743,"end":379.605,"text":"但是總是有影響嘛所以我們才扣的這些投資因因為到目前為止IMF跟那個BIS還有就是ADB這些OECD都還沒有來估測說對整個全球經濟的影響是怎麼樣對個別國家的影響是怎麼樣到目前他們還沒有"},{"start":397.072,"end":422.367,"text":"但是呢投資銀行他就有一些的評估所以我們就引用了這個評估但是呢我們有一個但書我們說這都是參考參考因為到目前為止呢整個的情勢都還沒有非常的明朗所以我們現在做這樣的一個評估的時候有些時候呢會嚇到自己那如果就是說最後如果是10%的關稅好了那總裁認為說寶山有可能嗎"},{"start":423.631,"end":448.882,"text":"這個我們必須要再做評估我也沒辦法說在這裡就馬上跟委員說就可以保持這個3%的經濟成長力到目前為止我覺得我們必須要總裁認為不確定性太高了對對對對那請教一下這個關稅對等關稅它裡面除了貿易逆差之外它有提到說這個所謂的匯率的操縱"},{"start":451.263,"end":467.57,"text":"匯率的操縱我跟委員報告一下匯率的操縱這個我看指標上面其實是有達到它的這個對 這個就是說匯率的這個問題基本上它當然它有說這個可能會涉及到它的逆差跟匯率有一些的關聯對啊 有出超碼"},{"start":469.731,"end":493.34,"text":"但是我認為事實上匯率的這個部分是美國財政部的主權所以我上一次的報告裡面我也提到就是說美國財政部在4月是因為那時候一般來講他都會在4月中會提出他的匯率報告那他的匯率報告他就會提出他的看法"},{"start":494.781,"end":512.867,"text":"他的看法所以呢我現在呢要跟委員報告的就是說事實上呢關稅關稅的這個議題呢是美國政府美國的總統有這個緊急的緊急的那個發布命令的那個權限但是呢財政部的這個會議報告他的會議報告我跟委員報告他的會議報告是國會通過的"},{"start":517.788,"end":521.612,"text":"他的匯率報告是國會通過的他是1988年綜合貿易及競爭力法案還有2015年貿易變節化及貿易執行法案這個都是國會通過的"},{"start":532.705,"end":555.454,"text":"他國會通過的他有一定的標準總裁我是說如果按照這一個美國財政部的標準來講的話其實我們有兩個指標包含這一個對美國貿易的粗糙經常這樣的順差其實都有達到那我是說這方面的話會不會被美國我們匯率沒有啊我們匯率我們還是賣啊我們還是在賣啊他的第三個標準是說你要單邊的買"},{"start":557.535,"end":578.26,"text":"我們沒有啊我們反而是在賣啊所以總裁認為說不會因為這樣子被美國如果說根據美國國會所通過的這個法案的三個標準按照道理我們是不會列在裡面的所以總裁認為說不會就對了我們是覺得是不會的但是呢現在就是說態度他"},{"start":579.16,"end":601.66,"text":"現在就是說財政部長的態度還有就川普總統的態度因為這個匯率報告畢竟還是要通過川普總統的看過看起來美國財政部長是對這個關稅是踩煞車的啦我想就是說因為這個標準是國會通過的所以國會通過的話你不能就是說是"},{"start":602.581,"end":610.854,"text":"是對國會的這三個標準做某些的扭曲這個是跟他的關稅是不大一樣的總裁請回最後一點時間我請財政部莊部長"},{"start":619.597,"end":626.28,"text":"關於對等關稅 它裡面有提到台灣裡面有一些非關稅的障礙那我們的經貿談判辦公室有指出有七項非關稅的障礙那其中跟財政部有相關的要怎麼去做處理"},{"start":640.871,"end":647.735,"text":"是,對於非關稅障礙這個部分,經貿辦公室都逐一在談對,那我說跟財政部那在財政部那個部分當然也有提到所謂的違規轉運,就是息產地的部分那那個部分我們海關跟我們的經濟部其實在從107年中美貿易戰以後已經建立起一個非常好的一個機制來做事前的預防、事中的管理及事後的嚴懲這個部分"},{"start":666.327,"end":687.668,"text":"那我是說在對等關稅成立之後有沒有新的措施來做法因為你要因應新的情勢啊我們又在希望能夠再精進那海關這邊已經檢討以後就更精進的一些作為署長有要做補充的嗎那個關務署署長可以再說明那個精進的措施報告委員我簡短報告一下我們已經立即成立了一個強力查核小組在各關"},{"start":688.328,"end":703.294,"text":"都要組這個強力者查核小組違規轉運那由官務長或副官務長要親自帶隊那頻率會非常高查核的頻率會非常高另外我們會建立一個專一的風險管理系統專門針對違規轉運來做精準的一個打擊因為洗產業這個是很嚴重啦為什麼像越南這些國家"},{"start":712.179,"end":717.611,"text":"開始被課那麼多關稅就是它涉及席產地啦所以這方面我要盡量避免好不好好謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時17分）謝謝主席，請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁，請。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好，辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：哪裡。"],["李委員坤城：我還記得我們在3月27號有針對川普政府對等關稅策略與我國被列入骯髒十五國名單做了一個專案報告……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：結果發現不是骯髒十五國，一公布的時候發現全世界都有。不過我看了一下當時央行的報告，其實你們那時候說到臺灣跟美國的關稅差距，如果按照貿易加權平均關稅來計算的話，臺灣是1.7%，美國是2.2%，其實臺灣還低於美國0.5個百分點。按照簡單平均的關稅來算算看，臺灣是6.5%，高於美國3.2%，多了3.3%，也就是從當時3月底的這個報告來看，總裁有想到最後川普的算法是這樣子的嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，因為我認為……當時我們的推論是，第一個，你講對等關稅，因為我們加權平均都比你低，雖然簡單平均我們比他高，沒有錯……"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：而且主要是在農產品。"],["李委員坤城：但也就是3.3%而已啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這是第一點。第二點，我們也認為，事實上臺灣最近幾年對你的出超，這些產品都是你最需要的，而且對你很有貢獻，對你的經濟發展很有貢獻。"],["李委員坤城：所以那時候你說其實是產業的互補……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，是互補。"],["李委員坤城：不是不公平的貿易嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：你看看我們的這些產品，包括這些AI server，這些對他們生產力的提升，還有對他們國防安全、航太領域都有貢獻的。"],["李委員坤城：好，總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們才會覺得對臺灣的對等關稅不至於會課那麼高。"],["李委員坤城：那時候你們預想的策略中，最壞會被課到多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：那時候他們有提到基本是10%，所以我們也認為頂多就是10%。"],["李委員坤城：10%？"],["楊總裁金龍：10%。但現在他用的公式非常不合理，就是說……"],["李委員坤城：貿易逆差？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，第一個用對美的逆差，第二個除上對美的出口額，這是不合理的。"],["李委員坤城：對，所以這個方案是你們從來沒有想到的？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有想到。"],["李委員坤城：現在又從32%降到10%，回到基礎關稅。總裁，這中間的轉折是怎麼樣？美國自己也受不了了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得是這樣子。我剛剛也在講，他沒有想到對等關稅公布之後，最先反應的竟是本國股市。你看，整個股市跌得那麼多，也讓其他國家的股市隨著下跌，而且是連續下跌。如果他不踩煞車，並提出三個月緩衝期的話，股市這樣下去是會崩盤的！"],["李委員坤城：所以總裁認為川普的轉折跟他自己國內的股市一直下跌有關？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛也有委員提到美國公債利率彈升上來，讓他有一點怕，為什麼？美國，特別是美國財政部其實是希望長期的公債殖利率能夠下來，沒有想到下到百分之三點九幾時，最近又爬到百分之四點三三，所以緊張了。百分之四點三三對美國財政部的財政負擔是滿大的，我覺得這是一個轉折點。"],["李委員坤城：無論如何，現在爭取到三個月時間了！對於這三個月時間，總裁有什麼樣的建議？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛講，有這三個月的時間，市場鬆了一口氣；鬆了一口氣之後，美國股市就上漲了……"],["李委員坤城：包含臺股也上漲了。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個reaction就是利多，我相信其他亞洲國家大概也是，臺灣也是……"],["李委員坤城：今天臺股也漲了。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過事實上就只有三個月的時間，如果大家要來談判，三個月是足夠長的，可以讓美國跟這些國家談。"],["李委員坤城：就臺灣來講，總裁有什麼建議？"],["楊總裁金龍：也是很好，但是……"],["李委員坤城：有什麼優先要做的？"],["楊總裁金龍：問題是，三個月也是很長的。雖然三個月很長，但整個金融市場的uncertainty、不確定性還是依然存在，畢竟不曉得他的outcome是什麼！也就是說在這一段期間裡，股市、匯市及債市都一樣，還是會會上上下下，而且波動度應該……在上一次非常大的波動之後，波動可能會減少，但波動度還是大的。"],["李委員坤城：我請教一下，這對於臺灣的經濟成長率會不會有影響？本來預估大概是3.14%，現在說會受到影響，最差有可能會到1.4%；好一點的話是2.6%，總裁的想法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：在這一次的評估裡，我們沒有把我們的評估揭露出來，為什麼？因為我們總覺得這是一個uncertainty，是非常不確定性的……"],["李委員坤城：但總是有影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以……"],["李委員坤城：所以主計總處說我們會受到影響……"],["楊總裁金龍：但這些投資銀行……到目前為止，IMF跟BIS，還有ADB、OECD都還沒有估測對全球經濟的影響是怎麼樣，對個別國家的影響是怎麼樣。雖然到目前為止還沒有，但投資銀行就有一些評估，所以我們就引用了這個評估，不過我們有但書，我們說參考而已。畢竟到目前為止，整個情勢都還沒非常明朗，所以我們做評估時有時候會嚇到自己。"],["李委員坤城：如果最後是10%的關稅，總裁認為保三有可能嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個必須要再做評估，我也沒辦法在這裡就馬上跟委員說可以保住3%的經濟成長率。到目前為止，我覺得我們還是要……"],["李委員坤城：總裁認為不確定性太高了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對。"],["李委員坤城：再請教一下，對等關稅除了針對貿易逆差之外，也提到匯率的操縱……"],["楊總裁金龍：有關匯率操縱這點，我跟委員報告一下。匯率操縱……"],["李委員坤城：以指標來說，其實是有達到他的……"],["楊總裁金龍：有關匯率問題，他們可能會說逆差跟匯率之間有一些關聯……"],["李委員坤城：對，因為我們有出超。"],["楊總裁金龍：但我認為匯率是美國財政部的主權，所以我在上一次的報告裡也提到，一般美國財政部會在4月中提出匯率報告，並在報告中提出看法。我要跟委員報告是，關稅議題是美國政府、美國總統的緊急發布命令權限；至於財政部的匯率報告則由國會通過，即1988年綜合貿易及競爭力法案，還有2015年貿易便捷化及貿易執行法案，這些都是國會通過的。既是國會所通過的，就有一定的標準……"],["李委員坤城：如果按照美國財政部的標準來講，其實我們有兩個指標，包含對美國貿易出超與經常帳順差都有達到……"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["李委員坤城：這方面我們會不會被美國……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是匯率沒有！匯率我們還是賣，我們還是在賣。第三個標準是單邊買。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們沒有，我們反而是賣！"],["李委員坤城：所以總裁認為不會因為這樣被美國……"],["楊總裁金龍：根據美國國會所通過的法案的三個標準來看，按照道理，我們是不會列在裡面的。"],["李委員坤城：所以總裁認為不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是覺得不會！現在是態度，現在要看財政部長的態度及川普總統的態度，匯率報告畢竟還是要通過，川普總統也要看過。"],["李委員坤城：看起來美國財政部長對關稅踩了煞車？"],["楊總裁金龍：標準是國會通過的，國會通過的話，所以不能對國會通過的三個標準做某些程度的扭曲，這和關稅相比是不大一樣的。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝，總裁請回。最後一點點時間請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長，請。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝總裁。不好意思，主席，再一點點時間。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：對等關稅裡面提到臺灣有一些非關稅障礙，我們的經貿談判辦公室指出有七項非關稅障礙，其中有跟財政部相關的，請問要怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於非關稅障礙，經貿辦公室逐一在談……"],["李委員坤城：我說的是和財政部有關的。"],["莊部長翠雲：在財政部的部分有提到違規轉運，就是洗產地，其實海關跟經濟部從107年中美貿易戰以後，已經針對這部分建立起非常好的機制作為事前的預防、事中的管理及事後的嚴懲。"],["李委員坤城：在對等關稅成立之後，有沒有新的措施與作法？因為要因應新的情勢。"],["莊部長翠雲：有，我們希望能夠再精進，海關也將提出更精進的作為。"],["李委員坤城：署長有要補充嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：關務署署長可以說明精進措施。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我簡短報告一下。我們已經針對違規轉運立即成立強力查核小組，且各關都要組成，由關務長或副關務長親自帶隊，查核頻率會非常高。另外，我們會建立專一的風險管理系統，專門針對違規轉運精準打擊。"],["李委員坤城：洗產地是很嚴重的，為什麼越南這些國家一開始會被課那麼多關稅？就是因為涉及洗產地，所以這方面要儘量避免，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員質詢。","下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160083","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971242a30f00de810fb1f179c558939ff9891a30f584bceeba99f36d695d45b6c1585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:09:58 - 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請林錦委員執行好 謝謝主席有請廖院長請中理院廖院長林委員要照好 院長辛苦院長"},{"start":17.225,"end":22.17,"text":"中研院今年的業務費被國民黨凍結了30%共計11億多那特別必須強調的是中研院的國內外旅費以及媒體政策跟業務宣導費也早就已經被通案"},{"start":36.223,"end":41.49,"text":"減八了一成比 統三所以剩下來的錢又被凍結了30%簡直是嚴重打擊了中研院推動科普以及延展年輕學術人才的量能"},{"start":52.384,"end":68.667,"text":"那我想台灣的學術研究就是站在國際舞台上接受強烈競爭跟挑戰的最重要的一個關鍵那我想只有權力的衝刺我們才能跟世界各國並駕齊驅所以沒有哪一個國家說會自己的在野黨"},{"start":69.668,"end":93.381,"text":"因為通常中研院這種學術機關應該就是不分黨派大家來支持自己國家學術研究所以竟然我們的在野黨透過這種大幅度凍結預算的手段然後再叫中研院的學者停下來等解凍逼迫台灣的學術研究規模來縮減我覺得這就是很"},{"start":94.582,"end":119.178,"text":"某個程度我是覺得是非常的惡劣啦那我現在是納悶是說當然這個中研院可能想說到底我們是犯了多大的重大的疏失才會被動成這樣讓在野黨不惜犧牲這個學術衝擊國際的交流也要這樣大幅度的凍結預算院長你覺得你有犯下重大的疏失嗎"},{"start":127.015,"end":137.177,"text":"我想實際上真的是莫須有的罪名因為國民黨自己的凍結預算的內文其實也都說不出一個所以然為什麼要凍我們 為什麼要刪我們"},{"start":139.498,"end":162.594,"text":"那搞不清楚這樣的一個狀況之下很遺憾的 很明顯的就是說台灣這樣重要的學術工作成為國民黨惡搞的犧牲品那我想為了預算問題剛剛葛如君召委又有點名我所以我想我也趁這個機會做個提問喔我其實我也很納悶就國民黨又要動預算然後又要趕火車 請你解動預算那"},{"start":166.437,"end":169.879,"text":"那當初他在動是在動台灣文的動心聲對哪有這種就是說你要動人家然後又要說你趕快解凍就是說怕人然後還要喊救人我已經大開殺戒然後又說你怎麼"},{"start":184.389,"end":206.064,"text":"不去送醫院莫名其妙那國民黨可能就很清楚知道他這樣的亂三動預算已經造成了社會很大的輿論他也造成他自己很大的困擾所以他現在才急著想要這個彌補的時候叫你們趕快來送解凍案那可是喔很有趣的是當初國民黨動文的這個"},{"start":208.866,"end":224.792,"text":"理由就是一篇言不及語的廢文甚至還複製貼上那要叫中研院的話剛剛院長你也回答你還很用心回答所以我要花很多的心力然後我們要花很多的時間要去寫一篇解凍的報告"},{"start":225.712,"end":241.489,"text":"即便是書面報告不能亂寫我們又不是國民黨所以我想這個部分很顯然就是說他們召委然後用這樣的方式來質詢你我是覺得國民黨確實是沒有到現在還沒有反省能力針對這件事情"},{"start":242.93,"end":271.621,"text":"我們預算被凍結影響的層面相當廣那我最關心的就是說我們的南部縣區因為十月份我們就有要辦理縣區開放的這個系列活動那我想十月份要辦的活動我們是不是現在就要開始做所謂的著手採購的一些作業包括一些籌備網路架設啦 活動設計啊廠部啊 宣傳等等那這些"},{"start":273.642,"end":289.23,"text":"剛剛好像雅玲委員有稍微提及那你有回答說這個就能就現在的多少預算做多少的事情那是不是這個部分就也只能這樣 院長是的 就我們也儘量在目前可動用預算之下來規劃那詳細我們就請秘書處關鍵中心來回答"},{"start":293.953,"end":317.594,"text":"報告委員 秘書處處長曾國祥除了剛才提到的可能在規模跟參與人數會影響之外您特別關心的南部縣區開放主要還會因為國內旅費刪了15%而且不能留用那因為南部縣區特別需要這個資源所以它影響的程度會更大但是我們還是會盡我們的全力把這個活動繼續辦下去"},{"start":319.335,"end":348.311,"text":"因為刪除預算他如果給你寫個但書不得留用就是真的沒有辦法所以我們兩個好他再來要跟院長來探討一個數位化研究資料開放的問題知識是公共財那由全民同資那掌握研究資源的這個中研院我想有責任推動知識的普及開放我舉個例來講中研院的台史所的台灣日記知識庫就做得很好"},{"start":349.251,"end":375.372,"text":"讓台灣大眾都可以很輕易的找到林憲棠 田健智郎等這種重要的歷史人物的日記這一點非常的重要那像林憲棠的日記如果在台灣史的學者手中可能他就轉換成論文那同樣是林憲棠的日記到了導演手中可能就變成一部電影那所以開放這個資料乍看之下可能是吃力不討好可是對於台灣文化台灣研究的長遠建設來看是可以創造無數的可能性"},{"start":378.695,"end":390.1,"text":"所以開放資料的重要性真的遠不亞於中研院研究的推陳出新那透過中研院的數位文化中心我們大概可以掌握到有131個資料庫"},{"start":394.002,"end":415.297,"text":"包括包含資料庫 工具 平台跟主題網站在內的一些數位化的成果可是當中有部分的網站已經失效或者已經需要重新佈建那這一點麻煩中因為必須要重新盤點跟改善那另外關鍵字的這個搜索功能好像也只能針對"},{"start":416.598,"end":430.743,"text":"各別的網站提供的簡短說明來內容做搜尋沒有辦法說處理跨資料庫的檢索那這一點可能是否也要請中研院來提出一些改革方案我想這部分是不是也簡單說明一下"},{"start":431.886,"end":461,"text":"社会文化中心陈希远委员说得好 事实上我们现在在通盘整理因为我们现在可能要建置一个Open Academy的方法来使得研究人员就近包括您刚才所讲的日记资料库来妥善地运用用在他们的研究上面去所以我们现在想全部的纳入这样的系统里面来以我们过去的开放博物馆为基础建立起这个所谓的开放的一个学术院让人文研究学者能够擅进从文字影像到数据的社会化整理工作"},{"start":467.943,"end":479.39,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們在南部縣區也建立了一個數位圖書館現在方便南部的學者到我們的南部縣區就可以用到我們這些數位的資料"},{"start":480.53,"end":499.311,"text":"現在我整理了幾項我們中研院網路開放資料使用者希望改善的點或許可以提供中研院一些改革的方向像近代史這個數位資料庫算是一個模範它內容完整而全面可是像說實與所的數位典藏資料庫整合系統"},{"start":500.052,"end":519.099,"text":"就是這個入口網站的型態它整合檢索的功能差那剛才的那個平台上剛才我們提到的那個台時所這個台灣日記知識庫它則是建立在維基百科這個平台上所以那個文字資料的結構性"},{"start":520.299,"end":539.92,"text":"相對低那未來若要建立這個規模包含列啊欄啊的這種資料表可能會造成電腦處理上的困難那怎麼突破這可能要請中研院多費心一點那另外有台灣文獻全文資料庫有新建的報紙資料還沒有上網的問題那台灣研究"},{"start":543.243,"end":564.422,"text":"古籍資料庫則是欠缺全文字的檔所以特別必須提到的是說中研院建設這個平台似乎好像都偏向計畫成果的彙整很難跨資料庫的檢索這一點相當可惜所以以上是不是也請院長做一些改革"},{"start":565.603,"end":590.59,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我們朝這個方向來做事實上有些東西我們已經開始在做了謝謝委員的提醒那需要多少時間跟委員報告一下就是我們現在關鍵中心有一個新的計畫就是利用AI來解讀歷史文本今年已經開始執行而且我們投入相當大的經費有台詞鎖民族鎖跟禁詞鎖三個鎖一起來做所以在您提到這個"},{"start":592.951,"end":609.974,"text":"報紙資料還有這個全文字檔案的部分我們這邊一定會加速的來進行因為中研院的這個數位內容全數都是全民投資的成果所以開放全民共享我想理所當然那以社會所台灣社會意向調查為這個例子調查執行後三年就會開放資料下載那調查完成後半年就會開放問卷下載那請問院長中研院這種"},{"start":620.956,"end":645.817,"text":"所有的數位化研究資源是否都有像台灣社會意向調查這樣的開放年限的規劃我想每個計畫的開放程度也不一樣有特殊的條件所以可能沒有辦法一個政策用諸四海可以每一個不同的資料分開來處理這可能比較合適"},{"start":647.574,"end":673.966,"text":"所以你覺得就各所要各行其事就是說大家朝能夠開放 儘量開放的目標前進但是每一個計畫 每一個資料庫都有它特殊的狀況所以我們必須要考量這個部分當然啦 數位化成果開放程度不一可是對於這些公共資源我想我們應該要最大程度的開放因為它還是可以讓全民共享好 以上謝謝 謝謝院長"},{"start":676.289,"end":676.531,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時10分）謝謝主席，有請廖院長。"],["主席：請中研院廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：林委員早。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長辛苦！院長，中研院今年的業務費被國民黨凍結了30%，共計十一億多，必須特別強調的是，中研院的國內外旅費以及媒體政策跟業務宣導費也早就已經被通案刪減扒了一層皮，這個你也清楚，被統刪、通刪了，剩下來的錢又被凍結了30%，簡直是嚴重打擊了中研院推動科普以及延攬年輕學術人才的量能。","臺灣的學術研究就是站在國際舞臺上接受強烈競爭跟挑戰一個最重要的關鍵，只有全力衝刺，我們才能跟世界各國並駕齊驅，所以沒有哪一個國家的在野黨會這樣刪凍預算，因為通常對於中研院這種學術機關，應該就是不分黨派，大家來支持自己國家的學術研究，但我們的在野黨竟然透過這種大幅度凍結預算的手段，叫中研院的學者停下來等解凍，逼迫臺灣的學術研究規模縮減，我覺得這在某個程度上是非常惡劣啦。我現在納悶的是，中研院可能會想說到底自己是犯了多重大的疏失才會讓在野黨不惜犧牲學術、衝擊國際的交流，也要這樣大幅度的凍結預算，院長，你覺得你有犯下重大的疏失嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想沒有。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長無言以對！我想實際上就真的是莫須有的罪名，因為國民黨自己凍結預算的提案內文其實也都說不出一個所以然，為什麼要凍、為什麼要刪預算，在這樣一個搞不清楚狀況的情況之下，很遺憾也很明顯的就是臺灣這樣重要的學術工作成為國民黨惡搞的犧牲品。","為了預算的問題，剛剛葛如鈞召委又有點名我，所以我也趁這個機會做個提問，其實我也很納悶，國民黨又要凍預算，然後又要趕火車請你解凍預算，當初他們的凍結是臺灣話「凍心酸」的嗎？哪有這種的，你之前要凍人家，然後現在又要求趕快提解凍，就是打人然後又喊救人，我已經大開殺戒了，然後還說你怎麼不送去醫院，莫名其妙！","國民黨可能就很清楚知道自己這樣的亂刪凍預算已經造成了社會很大的輿論，也造成他自己很大的困擾，所以現在才急著想要彌補，叫你們趕快送解凍案，可是很有趣的是，當初國民黨所提凍結的理由就是一篇言不及義的廢文，甚至還複製貼上！現在要叫中研院提解凍，剛剛院長也很用心的回答，表示要花很多的心力、很多的時間去寫一篇解凍的報告，即便是書面報告也不能亂寫，我們又不是國民黨，所以我想這個部分很顯然的，就是他們的召委用這樣的方式來質詢你，我是覺得針對這件事情國民黨到現在確實還沒有反省的能力。","中研院預算被凍結所受影響的層面相當廣，我最關心的就是南部院區，因為10月份就要辦理院區開放的系列活動，10月份要辦的活動是不是現在就要開始著手採購等相關作業，包括一些籌備、網路架設、活動設計、場布、宣傳等等，這些剛剛好像雅琳委員有稍微提及，院長你也回答說這個就是現在有多少預算做多少事情，是不是這個部分也只能這樣了？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，我們也儘量在目前可動用的預算之下來規劃，詳細的部分我請秘書處來回答。"],["曾處長國祥：報告委員，我是秘書處處長曾國祥。除了剛才提到的，可能在規模跟參與人數會受到影響之外，您特別關心的南部院區開放，主要還會因為國內旅費刪了15%，而且不能流用，因為南部院區特別需要經費的支援，所以它影響的程度會更大，但是我們還是會盡我們的全力把這個活動繼續辦下去。"],["林委員宜瑾：因為刪除預算時如果寫個「不得流用」，就是真的沒有辦法。"],["曾處長國祥：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以國民黨……","再來要跟院長來探討一個數位化研究資料開放的問題，知識是公共財，由全民投資，掌握研究資源的中研院，我想有責任推動知識的普及與開放。舉個例來講，中研院臺史所的臺灣日記知識庫就做得很好，讓臺灣大眾都可以很輕易的找到林獻堂、田健治郎等這種重要歷史人物的日記，這一點非常重要。像林獻堂的日記，如果在臺灣史的學者手中可能就轉換成論文，同樣是林獻堂的日記，到了導演手中可能就變成一部電影，所以開放這個資料乍看之下可能是吃力不討好，可是對於臺灣文化、臺灣研究的長遠建設來看，是可以創造無數的可能性，所以開放資料的重要性真的不亞於中研院研究的推陳出新。","透過中研院的數位文化中心我們大概可以掌握到約有131項包含資料庫、工具、平臺跟主題網站在內的數位化成果。可是當中有部分網站已經失效或者需要重新布建，這一點麻煩中研院必須要重新盤點跟改善。另外，關鍵字搜索功能好像也只能針對個別網站提供的簡短說明內容做搜尋，沒有辦法處理跨資料庫的檢索，這一點可能也要請中研院提出一些改革方案，這個部分是不是也簡單說明一下？"],["陳召集人熙遠：我是數位文化中心陳熙遠。委員說得好，事實上我們現在在通盤整理，因為我們現在可能要建置一個open academy的方法，包括您剛才所講的日記資料庫，使得研究人員可以妥善的運用到他們的研究上面去，所以我們現在想要全部納入這樣的系統裡面來，以我們過去的開放博物館為基礎，建立起所謂的開放學術院，讓人文研究學者能夠善盡從文字、影像到數據的數位化整理工作，謝謝您的提醒。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，這是技術性的。本席也整理了幾項……"],["李副執行秘書兼主任超煌：跟委員報告一下，我們在南部院區也建立了一個數位圖書館……"],["林委員宜瑾：我知道。"],["李副執行秘書兼主任超煌：方便南部的學者到我們南部院區就可以用到這些數位的資料。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，現在我整理了幾項中研院網路開放資料使用者希望改善的點，或許可以提供中研院一些改革的方向。近代史數位資料庫算是一個模範，它的內容完整而全面；可是史語所的數位典藏資料庫整合系統就是入口網站型態，它整合檢索的功能差；剛才我們提到臺史所的臺灣日記知識庫，它則是建立在維基百科這個平臺上，所以文字資料的結構性相對低，未來如果要建立規模包含列和欄的這種資料表，可能會造成電腦處理上的困難，怎麼突破可能要請中研院多費心一點。另外，臺灣文獻全文資料庫有新建報紙資料還沒有上網的問題；而臺灣研究古籍資料庫則是欠缺全文字檔案。所以特別必須提到的是，中研院建置的這些平臺似乎好像都偏向計畫成果的彙整，很難跨資料庫的檢索，這一點相當可惜，所以以上是不是也請院長做一些改革？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝委員的建議，我們朝這個方向來做，事實上有些東西我們已經開始在做了，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員宜瑾：那需要多少時間？"],["李副執行秘書兼主任超煌：跟委員報告一下，我們關鍵中心現在有一個新的計畫，就是利用AI來解讀歷史文本，今年已經開始執行了，而且我們投入相當大的經費，由臺史所、民族所跟近史所三個所一起來做，所以您提到報紙資料還有全文字檔案的部分，我們這邊一定會加速的來進行。謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：好！因為中研院的數位內容全數都是全民投資的成果，所以開放全民共享是理所當然的，以社會所做的臺灣社會意向調查為例，調查執行後三年，就會開放資料下載，調查完成後半年，就會開放問卷下載，請問院長，中研院所有的數位化研究資源，是否都有像臺灣社會意向調查這樣，有開放年限的規劃？"],["廖院長俊智：每個計畫開放的程度也不一樣，有特殊的條件，所以可能沒有辦法一個政策用諸四海，可以每一個不同的資料分開來處理，可能比較合適。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以你覺得各所要各行其是？"],["廖院長俊智：就是大家朝能夠開放儘量開放的目標前進，但是每一個計畫、每一個資料庫都有它特殊的狀況，所以這個我們必須要考量進去。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，理解。當然數位化成果開放程度不一，可是對於這些公共資源，我想我們應該要最大程度的開放，因為它還是可以讓全民共享。以上，謝謝。謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員，請院長回座。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：謝謝。我們接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971267a2d72ff37e15b0f11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba997335d9f1e23e32635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:06:14 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我想請郭部長還有陳部長好 請兩位部長"},{"start":16.949,"end":42.568,"text":"今天最新的消息美國的總統川普突然宣布就是針對75個國家對等關稅將延後90天執行那大家可能有一些人是鬆了一口氣但是本席認為這不是解套這只是延長比賽該做的事還是都要做那因為90天很快就過了這應該不影響我們現在目前所規劃的880億的計畫吧兩位部長"},{"start":46.557,"end":58.524,"text":"基本上是的那目前這880億請問兩位的這個分配是怎麼樣請問經濟部是多少錢這個農業部是多少錢呢經濟部本身410億農業部180億你們覺得這樣夠嗎"},{"start":63.407,"end":89.148,"text":"這是第一階段嘛第一階段所以後續還會有第二階段那昨天呢本席其實向經濟部也提出了幾個這個建議那很感謝部長給了非常積極的回應面對這一次的困難本席認為朝野都必須一同努力來度過這個危機那昨天呢本席在地方聽了非常多的意見所以今天在替企業向您反映有部分企業"},{"start":90.009,"end":114.699,"text":"因為被撤單或者是減單導致產量縮減那企業原本跟台電簽的這個契約容量可能會過多那他們希望經濟部跟台電能夠給予企業更多的彈性因為譬如說因為砍單效應而導致的用電量不如預期那對於這些企業是否可以先降低他的基本費率呢"},{"start":117.486,"end":134.135,"text":"那由於局勢一直在變化可能也不適合立刻更改契約針對這些受影響的這些企業是不是部長可以請他們研議來做一個更彈性的做法呢是 我們來考慮怎麼樣子來協助他們"},{"start":134.983,"end":147.554,"text":"好因為呢其實企業容量是企業自己評估的可是目前來說很難去評估說下一個階段到底會發生什麼事就好像我們大家都不知道美國會突然對我們課32%的稅那我們今天早上"},{"start":150.717,"end":157.44,"text":"之前也都不知道說美國又會突然說又要變成10%所以我們都不知道說接下來的談判結果是很難預期的所以這些企業其實沒有要佔台電便宜因為坦單效應的話他也不會用那麼多的電假設我們一直維持原本的這個契約容量反而是台電趁著這一次的危機佔了企業的便宜所以希望說在這個事件有定論之前先讓企業有個彈性請拜託部長"},{"start":180.669,"end":195.563,"text":"一定要來協助這些企業我們會協助企業度過這個難關這個是我們第一要務那我們在看他為什麼會被砍單現在已經恢復到這個10%了對他來講實在是沒有延後假設90天以後我們會在這90天裡面"},{"start":200.087,"end":216.432,"text":"看看我們最後談判的結果是怎麼樣再提出第二波的輔助跟這個協助的方案另外有一個情況就跟這個補助有關係了過去那COVID的時候我們有一個紓困方案等於是疫情後的紓困方案那有一些企業現在還在核銷的這個"},{"start":220.193,"end":236.607,"text":"過程當中還沒有完成但現在又遇到這個關稅事件所以如果要申請這一些這個補助的話目前來說他們是不符合資格的他必須先結案之後才可以那這個部分可不可以請部長明確的指示說兩個案子可以脫鉤處理"},{"start":240.38,"end":243.963,"text":"應該是可以脫鉤處理 這個我們會趕快研究好 謝謝那包括經濟部這一邊就是有沒有可能比照COVID-19的時候給這些受影響的企業這個貸款展延然後能夠不抽銀根那放寬這個信保的審查跟這個作業的流程呢"},{"start":261.179,"end":283.196,"text":"報告委員這個都有我們已經在上一波的這個公告上面都說得非常的清楚我們是展延六個月那這個也不會說加條件我們是放寬是那加速是這一點要拜託經濟部然後部長多多用心來關懷這些企業我想大家一起努力來渡過難關那接下來我想要請教一下農業部是不是請郭部長先請回好了"},{"start":288.001,"end":302.639,"text":"那這一次想要一起度過這個難關然後守護農民的心我想跟部長都是一樣的那我想要先請教一下部長我們的談判團從零關稅談起您的看法為何"},{"start":303.18,"end":326.248,"text":"我想總統所說的零關稅談起不是代表說全部都零關稅那以農業部門來講其實農業部門一個非常重要也是委員所關心的其實農業是守護我們糧食安全的一個非常重要的責任所以後續在談判的過程中我們一定會確保我們的產業能夠穩定而且永續發展我們的農民一定能夠保障的前提之下來處理"},{"start":327.208,"end":347.33,"text":"那本席也想要請教一下請問所有的這些我們剛才講到的我們的農產品是不是也包含在這個零關稅的範圍之內呢我想所有的談判絕對不是說農產品只談農產品或只談工業產品是整個對美的貿易的產品都一起來談"},{"start":348.676,"end":362.655,"text":"所以呢部長說實在您是非常辛苦您這個角色非常辛苦因為你要守護住農民就靠你了因為呢中華民國養雞協會的理事長邱石恩他就講WTO的時候就已經"},{"start":363.716,"end":369.384,"text":"農業就已經犧牲過一次了那我們不希望再讓農業犧牲一次希望可以維持現狀包括白肉雞的關稅維持20%然後雞蛋的進口關稅30%希望可以維持現狀那養豬協會的這個潘連周理事長"},{"start":380.618,"end":406.333,"text":"他也要求說美國怎麼會來要求我們的豬肉不要標示產地呢讓國人連選擇的權利都沒有犧牲台灣的農民對我們的農民跟消費者都不公平所以呢農畜產品絕對不能夠零關稅這一點也希望說部長能夠有所堅持那美國養豬的成本是我們台灣的可能將近"},{"start":407.633,"end":430.567,"text":"可能只有一半而已所以呢如果假設美豬打舉來台的話對我們的業者是剉雷彈所以這個產地標示的原則拜託部長一定要挺住部長您能夠承諾嗎我想後續的談判一定配合政府的整體的談判策略但是以農業部門來講包括我們的產業的一個聲音其實我們農業部都非常了解而且已經有適時的去轉達這樣的一個聲音"},{"start":433.348,"end":454.017,"text":"還是回到一個就是我們在談判我們不會針對影響到我們產業的穩定發展的這些品項去讓步但是本席也很擔心喔因為美國是全球農業最強的這個出口最強國連稻米他都出口那這一次稻米有沒有可能成為美國要求擴大進口的項目呢"},{"start":454.437,"end":470.328,"text":"我想美國他所公告的這個那個貿易的障礙的報告裡面他所就道美來講他說關切的是在這個關稅配額的時候國家配額裡面的底價的訂定啦他覺得不夠透明那這個部分我想我們有適度的調整"},{"start":470.828,"end":484.492,"text":"是因為稻作幾乎佔全台灣農民的兩至三成所以這影響會非常的大那本席就是希望具體要求說最弱勢最無助的這些基層農民絕對不能被犧牲就算為了談判我們擴大進口了農產品包括稻米或者是其他的續產品希望這些農產品不要輕易的進入我們台灣的市場請問部長"},{"start":498.396,"end":502.08,"text":"你理解我講的嗎就是說你就算買進來了你為了我們國家的未來你不得已你必須要買這些農產品是不是買進來了之後不要讓它流入我們台灣的市場來穩定我們台灣這些農民的這些權益跟消費者的這些食安問題"},{"start":517.416,"end":546.478,"text":"我覺得以現在目前稻米的國家配合來講都是由政府去購買進來放在我們的公糧倉庫裡面的所以我還是強調不管後續的談判怎麼樣我們會堅守我們對產業有影響的我們一定會堅持而且談判的過程裡面不是說關稅談到某個程度是立即降稅它還有很多的這種配套的作為那我們一定會爭取我們對我們台灣農產業最有利的方向去跟他們做溝通"},{"start":546.698,"end":562.666,"text":"是部長只要你朝著這個方向去我相信喔不只農民是你的後盾我們立法院包括經濟委員會所有的委員也會是你的後盾那另外我還想要再提出的就是包括我們雲林影響非常大的就是這個台灣雕啊台灣雕呢"},{"start":563.106,"end":592.606,"text":"他非常有可能受影響那他也希望農業部可以盡快的協助他們去開拓其他的高端市場那這一點我在報告裡面有看到你們有提出但是具體怎麼做怎麼去申請沒有資料所以我想這個部分應該不用等880億通過之後再來做因為這應該是農業部本來就應該在關心的事情所以請部長是不是能夠著手加快這個進度協助這些業者來開拓其他的海外市場"},{"start":593.386,"end":613.237,"text":"跟委員報告台灣貂的部分其實我昨天在前陣漁港我們的漁業分組已經召集了所有台灣貂的業者去座談了那相關的整個的一個細節我就希望說我們聽取的意見以後我會在4月應該4月14號照原定的時程是在4月14號會把這個細節公告"},{"start":614.918,"end":632.615,"text":"那這個部分是不是也提供給本席辦公室好嗎因為我們公告的沒有我們這個方案準備好的時候我們會公告但是現在因為遇到有一個問題就是他的關稅就是32%現在暫緩時是90天嘛那是不是如期啟動我想可能這個要必須要去討論"},{"start":633.416,"end":641.099,"text":"就是也許可以讓他們先知道說假設起到了32%他們會面臨的是什麼問題我想如果說32%的關稅的話我們的相關的辦法是什麼先讓他們知道那他們也會有一些心理的適應因為畢竟這對他們來說是一個很大的衝擊那我想只要我們一起站在保護農民的出發點上農業部應該是能夠有很多積極的作為我們一起努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":490,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時6分）主席，我想請郭部長還有陳部長。"],["主席：請兩位部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：今天最新的消息是美國總統川普突然宣布，針對逾75個國家的對等關稅將延後90天執行，可能有一些人是鬆了一口氣，但是本席認為這不是解套，這只是延長比賽，該做的事還是都要做，因為90天很快就過了。這應該不影響我們目前所規劃的880億計畫吧，兩位部長？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上是的。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前這880億，請問兩位的分配是怎麼樣？請問經濟部是多少錢，農業部是多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部本身410億。"],["陳部長駿季：農業部180億。"],["張委員嘉郡：你們覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這是第一階段。"],["張委員嘉郡：第一階段，所以後續還會有第二階段。昨天本席其實也向經濟部提出了幾個建議，很感謝部長給了非常積極的回應，面對這一次的困難，本席認為朝野都必須一同努力來度過這個危機。昨天本席在地方聽了非常多的意見，所以今天再替企業向您反映，有部分企業因為被撤單或者是減單，導致產量縮減，企業原本跟台電簽的契約容量可能會過多，他們希望經濟部跟台電能夠給予企業更多的彈性，譬如因為砍單效應而導致的用電量不如預期，這些企業是否可以先降低它的基本費率？由於局勢一直在變化，可能也不適合立刻更改契約，針對這些受影響的企業，部長是不是可以請他們研議，做一個更彈性的作法呢？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們來考慮怎麼樣協助他們。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，其實契約容量是企業自己評估的，可是目前來說，很難去評估下一個階段到底會發生什麼事，就好像我們大家都不知道美國會突然對我們課32%的稅，在今天早上之前也都不知道美國又會突然說要變成10%，所以我們都不知道接下來的談判結果，這是很難預期的。這些企業其實沒有要占台電便宜，因為砍單效應，它也不會用那麼多的電，假設我們一直維持原本的契約容量，反而是台電趁著這一次的危機占了企業的便宜，所以希望在這個事件有定論之前，先讓企業有個彈性，拜託部長一定要來協助這些企業。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會協助企業度過這個難關，這個是我們的第一要務，我們再看它為什麼會被砍單。現在已經恢復到10%了，對它來講實在是沒有延後……"],["張委員嘉郡：我是說假設90天以後。"],["郭部長智輝：假設90天以後，我們會在這90天裡面看看我們最後談判的結果是怎麼樣，再提出第二波的補助跟協助方案。"],["張委員嘉郡：另外有一個情況就跟這個補助有關係了，過去COVID的時候我們有一個紓困方案，等於是疫情後的紓困方案，有一些企業現在還在核銷的過程中，還沒有完成，但現在又遇到這個關稅事件，如果要申請這一些補助的話，目前來說他們是不符合資格的，它必須先結案之後才可以。這個部分可不可以請部長明確指示兩個案子可以脫鉤處理？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是可以脫鉤處理，這個我們會趕快研究。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。經濟部有沒有可能比照COVID-19的時候，給這些受影響的企業貸款展延，然後能夠不抽銀根，放寬信保的審查跟作業流程呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個都有，我們在上一波的公告上面都說得非常清楚，我們是展延6個月，也不會加條件，我們是放寬、加速，這件事有在處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這一點要拜託經濟部還有部長多多用心來關懷這些企業，大家一起努力渡過難關。接下來我想要請教一下農業部，郭部長先請回好了。","這一次想要一起渡過難關，守護農民的心，我們跟部長都是一樣的，我想要先請教一下部長，我們的談判團從零關稅談起，您的看法為何？"],["陳部長駿季：我想總統所說的零關稅談起不是代表全部都零關稅，以農業部門來講，其實一個非常重要的，也是委員所關心的，農業扮演守護我們糧食安全一個非常重要的角色。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，非常重要。"],["陳部長駿季：所以後續在談判的過程中，我們一定會確保我們的產業能夠穩定而且永續發展，在一定能夠保障農民的前提之下來處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，本席也想要請教一下，請問所有這些我們剛才講到的農產品，是不是也包含在零關稅的範圍之內呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想所有的談判絕對不是只談農產品，或只談工業產品，是整個對美貿易的產品都一起來談。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，所以說實在部長是非常辛苦，您這個角色非常辛苦，因為您要守護住農民，這就靠你了。中華民國養雞協會的理事長邱時恩就講，WTO的時候農業就已經犧牲過一次了，我們不希望再讓農業犧牲一次，希望可以維持現狀，包括白肉雞的關稅維持20%，雞蛋的進口關稅30%；養豬協會的潘連周理事長也說，美國怎麼會來要求我們的豬肉不要標示產地呢？讓國人連選擇的權利都沒有，犧牲臺灣的農民，我們的農民跟消費者都不公平，所以農畜產品絕對不能夠零關稅，這一點也希望部長能夠有所堅持。美國養豬的成本可能只有我們臺灣的一半而已，假設美豬大舉來臺的話，我們的業者是「剉咧等」，所以產地標示的原則，拜託部長一定要挺住。部長，您能夠承諾嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想後續的談判，我一定配合政府整體的談判策略，但是以農業部門來講，包括我們產業的聲音，其實我們農業部都非常了解，而且已經有適時轉達這樣的聲音。還是回到一個重點，我們在談判，針對影響到產業穩定發展的這些品項，我們不會讓步。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是本席也很擔心，因為美國是全球農業出口最強國，連稻米它都出口，這一次稻米有沒有可能成為美國要求擴大進口的項目呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想美國公告貿易障礙的報告裡面，就稻米來講，它關切的是在這個關稅配額的時候，國家配額裡面底價的訂定啦，它覺得不夠透明，這個部分我想我們有適度的調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，因為稻作幾乎占全臺灣農民的兩至三成，所以影響會非常的大。本席具體要求最弱勢、最無助的這些基層農民權益絕對不能被犧牲，就算為了談判，我們擴大進口了，農產品包括稻米或者是其他的畜產品，希望這一些農產品不要輕易地進入我們臺灣的市場。請問部長，你理解我講的嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：你就算買進來了，為了我們國家的未來，你不得已必須要買這些農產品，是不是買進來了之後，不要讓它流入我們臺灣的市場，來穩定農民的權益跟消費者的食安問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我就以目前稻米的國家配額來講，都是由政府去購買進來放在我們的公糧倉庫裡面，所以我還是強調，不管後續的談判怎麼樣，我們會堅守，對產業有影響的，我們一定會堅持。而且談判的過程裡面，不是關稅談到某個程度就立即降稅，它還有很多配套的作為，我們一定會爭取對臺灣農產業最有利的方向去跟他們溝通。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，部長，只要你朝著這個方向去，我相信不只農民是你的後盾，立法院包括經濟委員會所有的委員也會是你的後盾。","另外，我還想要再提出，我們雲林影響非常大的就是臺灣鯛，臺灣鯛非常有可能受影響，業者也希望農業部可以儘快協助他們去開拓其他的高端市場。這一點，我在報告裡面看到你們有提出，但是具體怎麼做、怎麼去申請，沒有資料。這個部分應該不用等880億通過之後再來做，因為這應該是農業部本來就在關心的事情，所以部長是不是能夠著手加快進度，協助這些業者開拓其他的海外市場？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，臺灣鯛的部分其實我昨天在前鎮漁港，我們的漁業署已經召集所有臺灣鯛的業者去座談了，整個相關的細節，我希望我們聽取意見以後，我應該會在4月14號，照原訂的時程在4月14號把這個細節公告。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個部分也提供給本席辦公室好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們這個方案準備好的時候會公告，但是現在遇到一個問題，就是它的關稅，因為32%暫緩實施90天，是不是如期啟動，我想可能這個必須要去討論，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：也許可以讓他們先知道，假設啟動了32%，他們會面臨的是什麼問題。"],["陳部長駿季：這個沒問題，如果課32%關稅的話，我們相關的辦法、細節一定會出來。"],["張委員嘉郡：是什麼先讓他們知道，他們也會有一些心理的適應啦！"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：畢竟這對他們來說是一個很大的衝擊，我想只要我們一起站在保護農民的出發點上，農業部應該能夠有很多積極的作為，我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","下一位請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們就是朝這個方向的項目去做所以本席要請教重點是不是在半導體跟ICT產業是不是如此"},{"start":327.737,"end":350.833,"text":"但是我們也希望在國內的產業我們究竟是要怎麼樣能夠維護我們的根基能夠穩定下來我想這個也是在你們談判的過程當中保障國內產業也是非常的重要所以請教是不是朝總統先生所說的這個方向在外媒他的投書上面所說的來請"},{"start":351.778,"end":366.705,"text":"是 那總統今天在這個Bloomberg上面所發表的這個台灣的這個路徑圖那正是我們所要進行的跟美方的這個談判的策略包括投資 包括採購那跟委員報告所以項目方向大概就是"},{"start":367.846,"end":386.222,"text":"這個這些項目基本上面是這些項目但是不只限於這些項目比如說有關於半導體就是台積電這個承諾的這個1000億美金加上之前已經開始投產的這個650億美金再加上這個其他的這個SelectUSA上面可能有很多的這個ITC產業會過去但是也要"},{"start":388.084,"end":413.831,"text":"包括所謂的我們在這個中油跟這個阿拉斯加已經簽訂了這個意向書那麼關於他們有關於這個天然氣管的這個投資案那這些東西都是對於台灣非常重要的包括說天然氣這是增加台灣的能源韌性包括對於台積電包括ITC產業其實一定程度上是我們要來就近客戶我們的大量採購有將天然氣呢要這個"},{"start":415.671,"end":432.266,"text":"這個達到大概三成左右剛剛這個經濟部也應許了也說大概是這個方向那同時包括了這個能源的方向呢還有很多其他的能源也包括的能源新技術所以我要請教經濟部"},{"start":434.485,"end":459.601,"text":"也就是所謂的能源新技術是包括了核電嗎請教報告委員因為現在技術的發展這個核電它現在是有在進步所以我們如果是要有採購核能相關的產品必須要有三個原則第一個就是要去確保核能的安全第二個"},{"start":460.521,"end":475.042,"text":"要核廢料的處置一定要完善第三個最重要的就是必須要有全民的共識這三點的基本原則是一定要掌握住的但是我們是持一個開放的態度來進行討論"},{"start":476.624,"end":504.687,"text":"一個開放的態度這是我們這一段時間這一兩個月來聽到的政府告訴我們在新人員的這個新技術裡頭我們是採開放的那所以接下來本席要請教原本的32%讓大家就是繃緊了神經那總統也喊出了五項的這個策略因應那麼也喊出了比照美墨加那個自貿協定"},{"start":505.808,"end":522.149,"text":"那也就是說我們從零關稅開始來談但是本想要請教外交部跟我們的經貿辦我們會朝FTA或者是BTA還是單純由我們自己主動來降關稅來談呢因為我們知道"},{"start":522.89,"end":547.654,"text":"有學者就指出了川普上議院的時候他就不談FTA所以如果想要在這個架構上去談降關稅似乎不是很可能但是也不是不可能因為現在千變萬化但是郭部長昨天也特別表示會朝這個方向他也說機率高不高他沒有辦法去做決定"},{"start":548.675,"end":565.212,"text":"所以我們在蔡總統的時候她也以這個方向但是我們萊豬進來了我們還是得不到什麼所以在這樣的一個情況之下想要請教辦公室跟外交部我們現在談判的方向"},{"start":566.564,"end":586.752,"text":"到底是什麼呢請說謝謝委員那我想我們基本上就是從零關稅開始談那現在台灣出口到美國有76%零關稅美國到台灣則62%零關稅所以我們就是從這個基礎往上去討論探討哪一些產品可以逐步的去擴大我們零關稅"},{"start":587.592,"end":600.844,"text":"的範圍那目的就是要去降低我們的貿易利差以及降低我們對等關稅的稅率所以這個不論是採取哪一種的經貿協定的模式那我想這個都是我們要去跟美國協商的方向結果想要去平衡這個均衡嘛那請教會專部"},{"start":606.728,"end":621.175,"text":"貿易談判主要是由OTM來負責但是外交部的這個策略已經全面配合第二個是說我們的首要的目標當然是要減低我們的關稅那麼第二個是說在這個上面是不是能夠把這個制度化台美的雙邊貿易的關係能夠制度化"},{"start":624.176,"end":647.002,"text":"所以再包括您所提到的FTA啦Bilateral Trade 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王秘書長麻煩副秘書長還有警政署警政署的長官 林副局長嗎我想首先請教司法院還有警政署針對目前在臺灣的通緝犯人數還有潛逃出境的人數有沒有做過統計"},{"start":37.97,"end":58.563,"text":"通緝犯人數應該是會有數據啦 那個會後我再跟委員補好 那麼因為我覺得這個案 這個數據蠻重要的齁那麼因為可能現場你們沒有掌握到確實的數據喔所以我希望你們之後呢 可以給我通緝犯人數潛逃出境的人數 到目前為止有多少"},{"start":59.645,"end":76.126,"text":"司法院有是不是這是司法院所那個發布的在那個113年發布通緝的是4128件多少4128但是這是司法院所發布的因為可能還有包括那個檢方這些我們就沒有列進來"},{"start":76.647,"end":80.309,"text":"是那我想說之後可能今天的質詢會後麻煩司法院還有警政署這裡都可以給我一些相關的數據比較精準的到目前為止那麼有多少的行蹤不明的通緝犯還有這個潛逃出境的人數因為可能這個通緝犯的人數我們也許在新聞上面可以找得到但是對於潛逃出境的人數其實並沒有特別的統計所以我本行想要了解相關的"},{"start":105.565,"end":122.566,"text":"數字所以請兩個單位到時候提供給我知道那麼還有另外就是我們知道其實現在實施這個科技監控雖然說案件數不多但是主要的犯罪類型是違和那麼這個部分不知道你們現在手頭上面有相關的數據嗎"},{"start":128.799,"end":129.76,"text":"對於目前實施科技監控的犯罪類型"},{"start":138.328,"end":156.739,"text":"在過去大部分都是以性侵害犯罪類型為主或是緩刑的那從近年來大概從113年之後因為整個實施科技監控的案件數明顯增加我想這個應該也是因為審計部曾經有做出一個報告說"},{"start":158.3,"end":170.085,"text":"我們雖然花了上億元去成立科技設備監控中心就在高檢署底下設置科技設備監控中心但是使用率偏低"},{"start":171.451,"end":175.833,"text":"所以我可以看到從110年到111 112年其實當時的案件數都不多大概從113年之後突然之間這案件數就提高比較多到目前為止大概就是217件但是事實上跟我們花了上億元去成立這個科技設備監控中心來看的話其實使用率仍然是不高那麼對於防範"},{"start":196.222,"end":209.216,"text":"被告的這個逃逸仍然是杯水車薪所以本席希望就是你們之後能夠給我提供一個比較詳細的數據就是實施科技監控的主要犯罪類型有哪些還是現在可以簡單講嗎我們現在這邊有那個報告就有個統計那個前三名其實是一樣的"},{"start":217.364,"end":243.331,"text":"是毒品危害還有違反銀行法跟貪污因為我們分得比較細第四跟第五是詐欺跟違反政交法所以總結來講的話其實大部分都是重大的經濟犯罪是 這個部分的話其實跟其他國家的做法比較不一樣我們參考像是韓國或是日本 德國這些地方當然德國基本上認為說實施"},{"start":245.311,"end":262.277,"text":"電子監控設備可能有嚴重侵害人權之虞所以他們非常審慎的使用但是像是韓國等國家基本上都還是聚焦在就是以性侵害犯罪的類型為主或是有這種暴力犯罪但是台灣現在看起來反而是"},{"start":264.798,"end":271.944,"text":"實施電子療靠可能是在貪污或者重大的經濟犯罪的部分那麼這個部分的話本席是認為是不是有檢討的餘地因為實施電子療靠的"},{"start":279.144,"end":307.515,"text":"就是實施這種電子腳銬或是手環的這樣的一個去監控犯罪監控這個受刑人其實在過去都會被認為這是有侵害人權之虞而且它實際上它的監控效果如何我覺得這個基本上是應該要去檢討的那麼當然接下來本席想要請教就是說為什麼到目前為止我們的科控設備的使用率會偏低"},{"start":310.27,"end":328.895,"text":"就是如果說你們說這是涉及到重大經濟犯罪的話實施這個電子療靠可是以目前看起來的狀況我們其實台灣重大經濟犯罪案件非常之多炸妻罪等等的但是實際上目前開案的案件數是低的這是什麼原因"},{"start":330.578,"end":359.509,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說那個科技監控它是替代羈押的一個處分那就是法官要不要使用這樣子的一個處分他需要考慮的事項很多譬如說他如果說是在一審或是說起訴了是涉及的犯罪的那個刑度是很高的那或者是案罪情節還有說對被告影響還有就是說他還沒有其他那些處分可以替代"},{"start":360.029,"end":378.095,"text":"他考量那個事情非常多那我們也必須就是說有些那個法官也許對於就是說這樣子的一個設備畢竟他是一個新的他整個流程不是那麼清楚所以我們這幾年來呢就是說司法院也很強力的就是在做這種賠利"},{"start":379.215,"end":382.617,"text":"就是說一個叫雖然是法官的那個進修那還有就是說開放他們讓他們到實際上去參觀這個整個科控中心怎麼個那個運作的讓他們那個熟悉這套制度的運作好是謝謝富米剛剛的說這個說明那麼事實上確實目前我們這個實施科技監控"},{"start":400.45,"end":421.973,"text":"要考量的因素很多按照我們現行法官來講因為他並沒有像是韓國他是把聚焦在特定的罪行所以很多的案就是幾乎就是各式各樣類型的案件如果說法官認為有需要其實就可以實施科技監控但是這樣子的個案認定坦白說又可能過於寬鬆那麼本席是認為說司法院是不是應該要"},{"start":423.534,"end":450.943,"text":"去提出一個就實施科技監控的一個作業辦法或是一個實施的標準對於哪一些重要的犯罪類型可以國立法官們實施科技監控那哪一些其實是不必要的那麼因為我們知道其實像以這次柯文哲他這個雖然說涉及貪污的這樣的一個罪行但是畢竟他還是當時在羈押當中然後就懷疑他有串供之虞所以這個"},{"start":452.623,"end":465.078,"text":"施以科技監控而要戴上電子镣銬但是這個對於國人的印象來講會認為說這過去大家都認為是性侵害犯罪者然後才會實施電子镣銬那現在不管是柯文哲或是謝榮"},{"start":467.462,"end":491.207,"text":"這樣子一個情況固然可能他們或許有犯罪嫌疑但是有必要要去實施這個電子镣銬戴上這個電子腳銬嗎這對外界來講會覺得說就算是戴上電子腳銬好了這個有可能會防範他們會有串供之魚嗎因為我們知道現在其實電子監控的它的效果是有限的"},{"start":492.666,"end":520.452,"text":"對不對它的GPS的電子監控最主要的那個目的事實上就是防逃啊那跟串供這個地方對的那個一個目的事實上是比較沒有相關對是那可是如果說以柯文哲案子來講的話會有可能會會逃亡嗎也就是法官其實在對於這些個案的認定的時候坦白說我覺得確實是過於寬鬆然後完全是法官自己的心證他要怎麼做就怎麼做這是所以我認為說"},{"start":522.052,"end":547.114,"text":"司法院其實應該要召開相關的會議或是要負責任的提出相關的標準而不是說是給法官太大的空間去做這樣的裁定接下來我還要再談的一個就是說這次中文制的氣保潛逃案裡面其實可以凸顯出一個問題"},{"start":548.675,"end":577.924,"text":"就是停止監控的程序可能出現漏洞那麼剛剛幾個委員其實都有談到為什麼會出現有這個法官做了裁定但是他其實只是個審理單並不是個正式的裁定書所以至於在科技監控設備中心那裡可能就已經解除了相關的這個就已經解除了相關的電子監控那其實本席有看到"},{"start":578.644,"end":585.211,"text":"依照法院辦理科技設備監控處分之處理原則第六點裡面有一個問題就是"},{"start":587.304,"end":615.517,"text":"科技監控如果期間限滿而沒有延長的時候呢是必須要到科技監控平台去進行結案的可是呢在這個中間可能會出現有一個漏洞的程序就是法官或是書記官這邊做了裁定那可是他可能並沒有在時間上可能並沒有通知到檢察官這裡所以未來有沒有可能可以做一個double check的"},{"start":616.358,"end":616.961,"text":"這樣的一個機制"},{"start":619.332,"end":648.402,"text":"那個報告委員就是說您在這裡所揭示這個情形呢他是指說他訂了一個期間然後期間到了之後他沒有再那個延長那這個其實事實上都有各種那個機制事實上是會提醒這個法官說原來這一個時間已經那個已經快到了就是有各種我在這裡就不詳談他事實上是有各種那個機制會通知那個法官是不是要去那個延長那所以說像就是說"},{"start":648.962,"end":656.803,"text":"那時候法官再去通知到這個科技監控平台因為這看起來就是書記官自己上這科技平台自己去進行結案"},{"start":658.069,"end":680.68,"text":"因為法官他要決定要再繼續延長的話他就會再下一個裁定那他這時候如果說他沒有說要延長的話這時候就是令書記官會直接上這個科技監控平台去進行結案嗎因為他的時間已經到了所以本來理論上如果說他沒有再變更就譬如說用其他的處分去替代"},{"start":682.389,"end":702.53,"text":"甚至於有可能就是說那就直接回到其他但是在進行結案的同時會這個檢察官這邊會知道嗎檢察官這邊會不會知道當他進行結案的這個動作的時候他上網去填表有沒有一個double check機制就是說他同時這個結案的這個通知"},{"start":703.7,"end":726.832,"text":"那麼可以同時間就是去複製或是同時同步的讓這個承辦的檢察官因為原來在下這一個定期間的那個科控處分的時候其實這個裁定原來的那個本來檢察官他也會知道他會知道說這個期間是到什麼時候就已經那個時間就到了他原來就會知道的"},{"start":728.072,"end":739.006,"text":"對 但是大家不會一直會盯在那邊然後去上網去看那至於說科控中心除了通知法院這邊會不會檢方這一段的話這個部分我可能就不是那麼清楚 對"},{"start":740.658,"end":761.568,"text":"總之就是說從周文智這個案子裡面也凸顯出整個法院的科技監控平台其實他可能並沒有一個double check雙重認證的一個機制如果說未來法院進行結案的時候是不是相關的資訊都應該同步的要告知這個檢察官那邊可以做一些"},{"start":763.329,"end":775.382,"text":"這個如果說他們到時候認為其實是要提起抗告等等的這相關的措施我覺得這樣的話或許今天鄭文智的案子就不會發生這當然就是我們在檢視相關流程的時候有發現這樣的問題本席也是就提供給這個司法院這裡做參考那麼可以將這個相關的流程"},{"start":785.313,"end":811.727,"text":"研擬的更細緻就是避免出現像是中文制的這個案子好那接下來我還要再請教的就是如果說今天這個違反了這科技監控規定的相關的就是受刑人如果說他違反了科技監控的規定那麼目前看起來是沒有任何的處罰的規定他只是又重新"},{"start":814.41,"end":827.123,"text":"這個就重新再被羈押譬如說我們以最近看到的遠航的動作張剛維那麼因為何怡婷收到就說科技中心的報告說他有七次都違反"},{"start":827.824,"end":829.985,"text":"這個科控規定的這個警示狀況而且看起來他就行進的路線有經過漁港所以法院又裁定羈押那當然張剛維他那裡有他自己的說法了那我們這裡就不再去就他這個說法來"},{"start":845.214,"end":866.601,"text":"來請教司法院但是我現在的意思是說其實GPS的定位一方面它可能會有誤差因為它會有飄移實際的位置跟GPS接收器所收到的訊號不見得會一樣那麼再說就是我們也看到韓國的例子韓國是之前它也是有個性侵犯"},{"start":867.827,"end":880.057,"text":"他洗滿出浴之後他回到他妻子的住處後來又發現說他佩戴腳鐐然後這個但是在夜間就擅自離開住處那麼最後這個警方檢方是以他違反了韓國的電子設備安裝法的罪名然後再給這個罪犯處以"},{"start":889.225,"end":913.303,"text":"一年有期徒刑還有罰款那麼簡單來說就是對於我們現在相關的法規裡面如果說是受刑人那麼他違反了電子腳鐐的等等的科技監控的規定除了就是再回去被羈押之外那麼有沒有可能要為了我們可以朝向修法還要再處以罰還或者是再處另外的這個罪名"},{"start":919.678,"end":944.332,"text":"這個部分應該是涉及廣義那個防害司法公正罪那今天下午就有個會議這個未來會朝向就是防害司法是是有個黨團協商是立法院黨團協商可是這會涉及跟防害司法公正罪有關嗎是的這事實上也是屬於這一個也是屬於違反法院所下的那個命令啊"},{"start":946.455,"end":951.718,"text":"所以包括如果說它有違反科技監控相關的規定的話都有可能會納入在妨害司法公證罪的類型裡面我想我今天並不是針對中文制的個案來進行詢問"},{"start":965.587,"end":968.169,"text":"而是廣泛的針對電子監控的相關的事情那麼從本席檢視相關的法規裡面也發現可能在程序上面還是有些漏洞那麼經過這幾個案例之後本席希望說司法院可以好好的"},{"start":982.057,"end":1001.067,"text":"去檢討未來是不是應該要修訂相關的辦法那麼甚至如果對於這個妨害司法公正罪除了罪之外是不是還可以科處其他的罰金那麼甚至如果有可能是當成是一種特別行政罰環來處理那麼這個部分的話就希望司法院可以通盤檢討"},{"start":1002.288,"end":1027.74,"text":"好謝謝委員那麼至於本席要求的相關的資訊就是通緝犯人數、潛逃出境人數還有施以科技監控主要犯罪類型的資料也麻煩司法院會後再提供給本席那只是潛逃出境這個部分因為司法院不是主責機關所以我們沒有統計法務部麻煩請證書這裡法務部跟司法院他們各自潛逃我們也沒有我們就是通緝犯那就麻煩請法務部這裡提供"},{"start":1031.493,"end":1053.07,"text":"當然偵查中跟執行中通緝人數是可以但是潛逃境外的這沒辦法統計因為潛逃境外他到底因為什麼原因而潛逃境外我們是不同理解的他也許是非法的潛逃境外也許是他雙重國籍潛逃境外所以潛逃境外的確確人數是沒有辦法統計的但是目前在以前到現在我們偵查中的通緝人數大概三萬多人累積"},{"start":1053.891,"end":1077.738,"text":"那執行大概一萬多人加起來大約五萬人左右的執行人數這些數字我大概這部分都是可以提供給委員所以您說是非法潛逃到海外的人數你沒有辦法統計我們有通緝的人數但通緝之後他有可能藏匿在國內有可能藏匿在國外藏匿國外他不是按照正式的通關程序出去的"},{"start":1078.058,"end":1098.175,"text":"它也許是非法偷渡出境的它也許另外拿雙重國籍出境的所以這部分的話它沒有辦法確確去控管境外通氣的人數這個是沒有辦法的還是說可以就是這樣就是說就是你們目前手上可以知道的境外的通氣人數就是不排除偷渡的"},{"start":1099.537,"end":1124.759,"text":"這些數字你們是有的嗎我們盡量收集 但事實上它有事實上的困難是沒有辦法收集那我們盡量的收集看看就是如果說是可以有相關的數據的話還是請次長可以提供給我我想這不是機密吧這不是確定這不是機密嗎不過我知道你們現在很為難全部都要經過行政院長核可是不是"},{"start":1126.041,"end":1149.908,"text":"是不是 本席最近也有向法務部請求一些資料你們有再報院長核可嗎坦白說我很希望卓榮泰能夠看到我每一份所知因為我發現他不是很認真也不是很用功的院長讓他了解立法委員所知的內容我覺得這是很必要的好 OK 不為難次長就先這樣 謝謝"},{"start":1155.637,"end":1166.505,"text":"卓榮泰那說法非常荒謬絕對荒謬然後什麼院長要先審核立委要什麼資料破壞我國憲政體制好那我們下一位請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":639,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時53分）請司法院王副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘。"],["翁委員曉玲：還有警政署的長官，林副局長嗎？"],["主席：好，請副局長。"],["翁委員曉玲：首先先請教司法院及警政署，針對目前在臺灣的通緝犯人數，還有潛逃出境的人數，有沒有做過統計？"],["林副局長故廷：通緝犯人數應該是會有數據，會後我再跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我覺得這個數據滿重要的，可能現場你們沒有掌握到確實的數據，所以我希望你們之後……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們手上有，這是院方的。"],["翁委員曉玲：可以給我通緝犯人數、潛逃出境的人數，到目前為止有多少？司法院有，是不是？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這是司法院所發布的，在113年發布通緝的是4,128件。"],["翁委員曉玲：多少？"],["王副秘書長梅英：4,128件，但這是司法院所發布的，可能包括檢方這些我們就沒有列進來。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想可能在今天質詢會後，麻煩司法院還有警政署可以給我比較精準的相關數據……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：到目前為止，有多少行蹤不明的通緝犯，還有潛逃出境的人數？可能通緝犯的人數，我們也許在新聞上可以找得到，但是對於潛逃出境的人數，其實並沒有特別的統計，所以本席想要瞭解相關的數字，請兩個單位到時候提供給我知道。另外，我們知道現在實施科技監控，雖然說案件數不多，但是主要的犯罪類型為何？不知道你們現在手頭有相關的數據嗎？如果沒有的話，也麻煩會後給我。對於目前實施科技監控的犯罪類型，在過去大部分都是以性侵害犯罪類型為主或是緩刑的，近年來，大概從113年之後，因為整個實施科技監控的案件數明顯增加，我想這個應該也是因為審計部曾經有做出一個報告指出，雖然花了上億元成立科技設備監控中心，就是在高檢署底下設置科技設備監控中心，但是使用率偏低，可以看到從110年到111年、112年，當時的案件數都不多，大概是從113年之後，突然之間案件數就提高比較多，到目前為止，大概是217件。但是事實上，跟我們花了上億元去成立科技設備監控中心來看，使用率仍然是不高，對於防範被告逃逸仍然是杯水車薪，所以本席希望你們之後能夠提供給我一個比較詳細的數據，就是實施科技監控的主要犯罪類型有哪些，還是副秘書長這邊……"],["王副秘書長梅英：現在可以簡單講嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們現在這邊有報告，就是有一份統計，前三名其實是一樣的，是毒品危害，還有違反銀行法跟貪污，因為我們分得比較細，第四跟第五是詐欺跟違反證交法，所以總結來講，其實大部分都是重大經濟犯罪。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，這部分其實跟其他國家的作法比較不一樣，我們可以參考韓國、日本或是德國這些地方，當然德國基本上認為實施電子監控設備可能有嚴重侵害人權之虞，所以他們非常審慎地使用，但像是韓國等國家，基本上都還是聚焦在以性侵害犯罪的類型為主，或是有暴力犯罪，但是臺灣現在看起來反而是實施電子鐐銬，可能是在貪污或重大經濟犯罪的部分，對此，本席認為是不是有檢討的餘地？因為實施電子腳鐐或是手鐶去監控受刑人，其實在過去都會被認為是不是有侵害人權之虞，而且實際上它的監控效果如何，我覺得這個基本上是應該要去檢討的。","接下來，本席想要請教，為什麼到目前為止，我們科控設備使用率會偏低？如果你們說這是涉及到重大經濟犯罪，會實施電子鐐銬，可是以目前看起來的狀況，我們臺灣重大經濟犯罪案件非常多，像詐欺罪等等的，但是實際上目前開案的案件數是低的，這是什麼原因？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，科技監控是替代羈押的處分，法官要不要使用這樣的處分，他需要考慮的事項很多，譬如如果是在一審，或者起訴了涉及犯罪刑度是很高的，又或者是案罪情節、對被告影響，還有有沒有其他處分可以替代等，要考量的事情非常多，我們也必須講，有些法官也許對於這樣的設備，畢竟它是一個新的，他對整個流程不是那麼清楚，所以這幾年來，司法院也很強力地在做這種培力，包括法官的進修，還有開放他們實際上去參觀整個科控中心的運作，讓他們能夠熟悉這套制度的運作。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝副秘剛剛的說明。事實上確實目前我們實施科技監控要考量的因素很多，按照現行法規來講，因為它並不像韓國是聚焦在特定的罪刑，所以幾乎各式各樣類型的案件，如果法官認為有需要就可以實施科技監控。但是這樣的個案認定，坦白說，又可能過於寬鬆。本席認為司法院是不是應該要提出一個實施科技監控的作業辦法，或是一個實施的標準，對於哪一些重要的犯罪類型，可以鼓勵法官們實施科技監控，哪一些其實是不必要的。","我們知道像這次柯文哲涉及貪污的罪行，雖然他當時還在羈押當中，但因為懷疑他有串供之虞，所以就施以科技監控要戴上電子鐐銬。但是國人的印象會認為，過去大家都認為是性侵害犯罪者才會實施電子鐐銬，現在不管是柯文哲或是謝宜容這樣的情況，固然他們或許有犯罪的嫌疑，但是有必要去實施科技監控，戴上電子腳銬嗎？對於外界來講會覺得就算是戴上電子腳銬好了，對於他們有串供之虞會有防範的效果嗎？因為我們知道其實現在電子監控的效果是有限的，對不對？它的GPS的……"],["王副秘書長梅英：電子監控最主要的目的事實上就是防逃，那跟串供這個地方……"],["翁委員曉玲：就是防逃？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對對。跟串供的防範，事實上是比較沒有相關。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是如果以柯文哲的案子來講，有可能會逃亡嗎？法官在做這些個案認定的時候，坦白說，我覺得確實是過於寬鬆，完全就是法官自己的心證，他要怎麼做就怎麼做。所以我認為司法院應該要召開相關的會議，或是要負責任的提出相關的標準，而不是給法官太大的空間去做這樣的裁定。","接下來我還要再談的一個就是，這一次鍾文智的棄保潛逃案凸顯出一個問題，就是停止監控的程序可能出現漏洞。剛剛前面幾個委員其實都有談到，為什麼會出現有法官做了裁定，但是它其實只是一個審理單，並不是正式的裁定書，以致於在科技監控設備中心那裡可能就已經解除了相關的電子監控。其實本席有看到，依照法院辦理科技設備監控處分之處理原則第六點，科技監控如果期間屆滿而沒有延長的時候，必須要到科技監控平臺去進行結案，可是在這個中間可能會出現一個程序的漏洞，就是法官這邊做了裁定，可是他可能並沒有在期限內通知到檢察官這裡，所以未來有沒有可能可以建立一個double check的機制？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，您這裡所揭示的情形是指，他定了一個期間，然後期間到了之後，他沒有再延長，這個部分事實上有各種機制會提醒這個法官，原來的時間已經快到了，我在這裡就不詳談，事實上是有各種機制會通知那個法官是不是要去延長監控，所以說像就是說……"],["翁委員曉玲：那除了法官再去通知科技監控平臺……因為這個看起來就是書記官自己上科技平臺去進行結案。"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為法官決定要再繼續延長的話，他自己就會再下一個裁定，那他這時候如果說……"],["翁委員曉玲：如果說他沒有說要延長的話，這時候就是令書記官會直接上科技監控平臺去進行結案嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。因為他的時間已經到了，所以理論上如果說沒有再變更，譬如說用其他的處分去替代，甚至於有可能就是直接回到羈押。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。但是在進行結案的同時，檢察官這邊會知道嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：檢察官這邊會不會知道……"],["翁委員曉玲：當他進行結案的這個動作的時候，他上網去填表，有沒有一個double check的機制，就是說他結案的這個通知可以同時間去副知，或是同時就同步的讓承辦的檢察官知道？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為原來在下這一個定期間的科控處分的時候，這個裁定本來檢察官也會知道，他會知道什麼時候那個時間就到了，他原來就會知道的。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，但是大家不會一直盯在那邊，然後上網去看。"],["王副秘書長梅英：至於說科控中心除了通知法院這邊，會不會通知檢方這一端的話，這個部分我就不是那麼清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：總之鍾文智這個案子，也凸顯出整個法院的科技監控平臺，其實它可能並沒有一個double check（雙重認證）的機制，如果未來法院要進行結案的時候，是不是相關的資訊都應該要同步的告知檢察官，那邊可以做一些如果他們到時候認為要提起抗告等等的相關措施，我覺得這樣的話，或許今天鍾文智的案子就不會發生。當然就是我們在檢視相關流程的時候有發現這樣的問題……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：本席也提供給司法院做參考，希望司法院可以將相關的流程研擬得更細緻，避免出現像鍾文智這樣的案子。","接下來我還要再請教的就是，如果今天受刑人違反了科技監控的相關規定，目前看起來是沒有任何處罰的規定，他只是重新再被羈押，譬如我們最近看到遠航的董座張綱維，因為合議庭收到科技監控中心的報告，說他有7次違反科控規定的警示狀況，而且看起來他行經的路線有經過漁港，所以法院又裁定羈押。當然張綱維有自己的說法，我們就不再就他的說法來請教司法院，但是我現在的意思是，其實GPS的定位一方面可能會有誤差，因為它會有飄移，實際的位置跟GPS接收器所收到的訊號不見得會一樣。再者，我們也看到韓國的例子，韓國之前有一個性侵犯刑滿出獄之後，當他回到他妻子的住處，後來又發現他佩戴腳鐐，然後在夜間擅自離開住處，最後檢方是以他違反韓國的電子設備安裝法的罪名，然後再給這個罪犯處以一年有期徒刑還有罰款。簡單來說就是我們現行相關的法規裡面，如果受刑人違反了電子腳鐐等等的科技監控的規定，除了再回去被羈押之外，有沒有可能未來我們可以朝向修法，還要再處以罰鍰或者是再處另外的罪名？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分應該是涉及廣義的妨害司法公正罪，今天下午就有一個會議……"],["翁委員曉玲：這個未來會朝向妨害司法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是，有個黨團協商，是立法院的黨團協商。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是這個會涉及到跟妨害司法公正罪有關嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，這個事實上也是屬於違反法院所下的命令。"],["翁委員曉玲：也是屬於這個？所以包括如果他有違反科技監控相關的規定的話……"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，法院所下的命令。"],["翁委員曉玲：都有可能會納入在妨害司法公正罪的這個類型裡面？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，基本上我今天並不是針對鍾文智的個案來進行詢問，而是廣泛的針對電子監控的相關事情，從本席檢視相關的法規裡面也發現，可能在程序上面還是有些漏洞……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：經過這幾個案例之後，本席希望司法院可以好好的去檢討，未來是不是應該要修訂相關的辦法，甚至如果要將其納入妨害司法公正罪，除了刑期之外，是不是還可以科處其他的罰金，甚至如果有可能當成是一種特別的行政罰鍰來處理，這個部分希望司法院可以通盤檢討。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：至於本席要求的相關資訊，就是通緝犯人數、潛逃出境人數，還有施以科技監控主要犯罪類型的資料，也麻煩司法院會後再提供給本席。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。只是潛逃出境這個部分，因為司法院不是主責機關，所以我們沒有統計。"],["翁委員曉玲：是法務部嗎？還是警政署？"],["王副局長故廷：應該是法務部跟司法院他們各自……潛逃的部分我們也沒有，我們只有通緝犯的部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就請法務部提供。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當然偵查中跟執行中的通緝人數是可以，但是潛逃境外的沒辦法統計，因為潛逃境外，他到底是因為什麼原因而潛逃境外，我們是不理解的，他也許是非法的潛逃境外，也許是拿雙重國籍潛逃境外，所以潛逃境外的確切人數是沒有辦法統計的，但是以前到現在我們偵查中累計的通緝人數大概三萬多人，執行大概一萬多人，加起來大約五萬人左右的執行人數，這些數字都可以提供給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以您是說非法潛逃到海外的人數你沒有確切的數字？"],["黃次長謀信：對，我們有通緝的人數，但通緝之後，他有可能藏匿在國內，有可能藏匿在國外，若藏匿在國外，他不是按照正式的通關程序出去的，他也許是非法偷渡出境的，他也許另外拿雙重國籍出境的，所以這部分沒有辦法確切去控管境外通緝的人數，這個是沒有辦法的。"],["翁委員曉玲：還是說可以將你們目前手上可以知道的境外的通緝人數，就是不排除偷渡的，這些數字你們是有的嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我們儘量蒐集，但這有事實上的困難是沒有辦法蒐集啦，不過我們會儘量蒐集看看。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，如果可以有相關數據的話，還是請次長可以提供給我，我想這不是機密吧！"],["黃次長謀信：這不是。"],["翁委員曉玲：確定這不是機密嘛。"],["黃次長謀信：不是。"],["翁委員曉玲：不過，我知道你們現在很為難，全部都要經過行政院長核可，是不是？本席最近也有向法務部請求一些資料，你們有在報院長核可嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：目前……"],["翁委員曉玲：坦白說，我很希望卓榮泰能夠看到我每一份索資，因為我發現他不是很認真，也不是很用功的院長，讓他瞭解立法委員索資的內容，我覺得這是很必要的。好，OK，不為難次長，就先這樣了，謝謝。"],["主席：卓榮泰那個說法非常荒謬，絕對荒謬！哪有什麼院長要先審核立委要什麼資料，破壞我國憲政體制！剛剛有宣告休息5分鐘，不好意思，那我們就先休息5分鐘，耽誤大家時間，不好意思。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時20分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971275a9edadf4483c98f179c558939ff9891a30f584bceeba998eac4c02589cf07d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:00:45 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我請中研院廖院長好 有請廖院長"},{"start":14.485,"end":19.327,"text":"好 吳委員長好 院長好今天是中研院的業務報告詢答那當然很多委員會關心到預算因為有預算我們才能夠執行才能夠做事情那剛前面也有很多的關切那首先我想要請教院長一個問題因為社會上也有一種意見認為說中研院的預算即便受到煽動預算還是比去年多那為什麼要哭求製造社會的恐慌關於這一點因為我個人是不認同的我想要請問院長你有什麼樣的回應"},{"start":44.278,"end":63.021,"text":"我們增加這個分兩點來講第一個我們增加部分是因應很大一部分是這個加調薪的部分至少3億元是用來調薪另外1億元是用來做這個治安的改善然後剩下的部分是來因應這個所有研究耗材經費"},{"start":64.742,"end":86.687,"text":"研究的成本在過去幾年當中增加了非常多所以我們增加的部分是這樣子最重要的影響是研究員的企圖心就被打擊了我們增加預算並不是讓我們過得舒服是研究員希望做的更多的事情中文醫院並沒有法定說你要做多少研究"},{"start":87.667,"end":115.296,"text":"所以我們爭取預算的原因是因為每個研究員有很強的企圖心想做更多更前瞻的研究拿一樣的薪水他拿一樣的薪水他需要做更多的研究那這樣的狀況之下那他現在沒辦法做所以嚴格講起來他薪水沒有被影響他一樣可以做他的事情但是對國家未來的科研就無形中產生一個沒有辦法估計的影響"},{"start":116.036,"end":133.79,"text":"是 其實站在支持我們國家的學術研究的立場我是支持你們增加預算因為其實去年我們在委員會這裡我又記得不同黨派的委員都一直在關切的是我們給研究人員的待遇如何尤其拿跟很多國家來比較是的"},{"start":135.231,"end":144.74,"text":"甚至台灣的研究人員的待遇甚至比有些國家少到五分之一差距是這麼落差這麼大我們的學術人員也是在國際的市場裡面去競爭願意留在我們台灣繼續從事學術研究我們其實都抱持感恩這當中都有一份為國貢獻的心情否則以他們的優秀他們的才能"},{"start":159.634,"end":164.879,"text":"其實很多的國家都紛紛向他們招手所以我還是認為說我們應該要來給予支持因為這都是對我們國家的發展是相當的重要那院長你剛也在詢問當中多次提到說雖然說刪減凍結數字這麼大但是你的責任當然是你要盡力的讓"},{"start":180.054,"end":187.698,"text":"我們研究人員還有我們相關的業務不要受到影響所以努力的在做調度能不能實際的舉例一下是什麼樣的調度因為我舉幾個例子例如說刪減這還不是凍結刪減我們的出國參旅費這包含了學術會議學術訪問這個是被刪了15%3000多萬那還有我們的這個"},{"start":204.646,"end":218.893,"text":"出國的教育訓練也是被刪了15%那像這些被刪掉它大概會影響實際影響到是什麼樣的因為我想國人可能不了解因為說就是搭飛機出國實際上不知道你們去做什麼事情那我們現在被刪了15%我們如何來調度呢我們請國際處長回答"},{"start":224.095,"end":247.347,"text":"委員國際處處長孟子欽報告我們被刪掉這個出國旅費最大的影響就是把年輕學者跟學生送出國去參加學術會議還有進行國際交流的短言計劃那這個的確是15%的刪減會造成我們必須要減低補助的金額或者是降低補助的名額那這個在今年應該是一定會反映出一個實質上的影響"},{"start":247.847,"end":267.882,"text":"那我們目前會是以減少名額還是說名額維持只是補助的金額降低這個我們還在評估但是可能會是以減少名額可是補助金額對每一位送出去的同仁還是給他可以支應這個旅費的金額這樣子可能對每一個人的影響會比較少一點"},{"start":268.562,"end":295.857,"text":"是這個我們還是就是非常希望明年因為預算還有明年就是未來這些預算有機會都要把它加回來因為就我們所知其實過去就已經都希望要再去持續增加了好那委員我們到年年中之後我們會再評估如果說有一些我們院內的預算可以想辦法挪移的話我們當然會再繼續支持但是這個可能還是需要再評估之後才能夠決定"},{"start":296.457,"end":312.945,"text":"對沒錯這也是我們立法院大家要共同來協商啦因為我看這一次我們的刪減條件很多是不得流用這個就會讓在後面就是想說如果說委員可以幫忙的話這個不得流用這個如果可以中研院排除在不得流用這一項那這樣對我們真的會有很大的幫助"},{"start":315.967,"end":321.348,"text":"恐怕是很多部位都希望可以排除不得留用所以這個我只是說要讓大家知道這個文字不得留用它實際上會造成什麼樣的影響好 那幾位可以請回繼續請教院長是台灣橋樑計畫這個去年總統也有接見這是世界和平基金會的主席來到台灣那我看了中央院近日有發布嘛我們今年是預計會在台灣來舉辦"},{"start":341.232,"end":358.859,"text":"那預計除了中研院以外包括台大、清大、成大、師大、中興、東海、中國醫藥、亞洲、慈濟等大學也會一起來參與這個跨校跨院校的合作計畫我想應該是今年台灣學術界一個蠻重大的盛事能不能說明一下我們目前的這個進展那預計怎麼樣來進行好我們請國際處長來說好"},{"start":365.603,"end":376.574,"text":"這個計畫從今年11月到明年4月在台灣總共會邀請28位諾貝爾獎得主涵蓋和平獎、化學、生醫跟物理所以各領域都有"},{"start":379.677,"end":399.41,"text":"經濟沒有 經濟目前沒有那他們除了在台灣會給公開演講之外現在最重要的一個我們想要推動的事情是跟台灣的學者還有學生甚至一些民眾有一些對話深入的對話那我們希望這個活動可以讓台灣走入世界也讓世界看到台灣是 先十位諾貝爾獎得主"},{"start":402.724,"end":407.407,"text":"28位 10位是本院支持那總共這個台灣橋樑的計畫就像您剛剛說的有包括各個不同的學校參與所以總共會有28位28位的諾貝爾獎得主來到台灣這個恐怕是盛況空前所以我也希望說我們可以多加強交流啊 相關的宣傳我覺得除了學術圈以外也應該可以跟國人大家起來分享這是非常重要的知識性的相關的交流"},{"start":428.661,"end":432.725,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來是很關心的因為我看到BBC有一個報導就說2024全球電力需求持續增長那來自乾淨能源的貢獻已經超過了四倍四成那其中太陽能發電量的成長是最快的過去三年太陽能已經增長了一倍"},{"start":447.099,"end":456.528,"text":"那中原院近日宣布院長今天有報告就是我們的太陽能技術我們的光電轉換效率已經超過了31%這個下世代的太陽能電池元件這個比目前市售產品轉換效率是高出三成以上所以可能很多人就在期待啦那未來我們的這個技術量產啊落地的應用啊等等這個怎麼樣來進行進展你們請院長說明我們請那個關鍵中心主任來回答"},{"start":474.103,"end":478.69,"text":"委員好 我是關鍵中心主任李超煌那麼目前我們這個技術在3月26號已經開了一個疊層太陽能技術的說明會"},{"start":483.7,"end":506.838,"text":"那麼大概全台灣跟太陽能產業相關的包括材料商、設備商、電池商、模組商都有派代表來參加那麼目前已經有兩個大的公司表示願意加入這個聯發聯盟那麼我們期望初期是以共同研發的方式然後各自去開發各自的製材把這個技術真正落地在台灣可以生產"},{"start":508.239,"end":516.224,"text":"這個我覺得非常的重要就是這是一個很重要的研究技術的突破加上我們跟產業已經開始有在結盟因為我們台灣太陽能板2011年開始設置它的這個太陽能線其實差不多20年所以我們現在這個未來如果能夠技術應用的話除了是在新的案場我們既有案場要更新的時候我們剛好就是達上這一個時間點所以非常的重要也非常的期待那請中央醫院繼續努力加油那我們國遠都會支持你們謝謝"},{"start":538.005,"end":539.316,"text":"好 谢谢吴佩玉委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":561,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時）謝謝主席，我請中研院廖院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好。今天是中研院的業務報告及詢答，當然很多委員會關心到預算，因為有預算，我們才能夠執行、才能夠做事情，剛剛前面委員對此已經有很多的關切了。","首先我想要請教院長一個問題，因為社會上也有一種意見，認為中研院的預算即便受到刪凍，預算還是比去年多，為什麼要哭窮、製造社會的恐慌？關於這一點，因為我個人是不認同的，我想要請問院長有什麼樣的回應？"],["廖院長俊智：這個分兩點來講，第一個，我們增加的部分當中有很大一部分是因應調薪，至少3億元是用來調薪，另外1億元是用來做資安的改善，然後剩下的部分是因應所有研究耗材經費、研究成本在過去幾年當中增加了非常多，所以我們增加的部分是這樣子。最重要的影響是研究員的企圖心就被打擊了，我們增加預算並不是讓我們過得舒服，而是研究人員希望做更多的事情，中研院並沒有法定要研究員做多少研究，所以我們爭取預算的原因是因為每個研究員有很強的企圖心，想做更多、更前瞻的研究，拿一樣的薪水，他是拿一樣的薪水，但他希望做更多的研究，現在在這樣的狀況之下他沒辦法做，所以嚴格講起來，他的薪水沒有被影響，他一樣可以做他的事情，但是對國家未來的科研在無形中就產生一個沒有辦法估計的影響。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，其實站在支持國家學術研究的立場，我是支持你們增加預算，因為其實去年我們在委員會這裡，我記得不同黨派的委員都一直關切我們給研究人員的待遇如何，還拿很多國家來做比較，臺灣研究人員的待遇甚至比有些國家少到五分之一，差距、落差這麼大，我們的學術論文也是在國際的市場裡面去競爭，願意留在我們臺灣繼續從事學術研究，我們其實都抱持感恩，這當中都有一份為國貢獻的心情，否則以他們的優秀、他們的才能，其實很多的國家都紛紛向他們招手，所以我還是認為我們應該要給予支持，因為這對我們國家的發展相當重要。","院長，您剛剛也在詢答當中多次提到，雖然刪減、凍結數字這麼大，但是你的責任當然是要盡力的讓研究人員及相關業務不要受到影響，所以努力的在做調度，能不能實際的舉例一下是什麼樣的調度？我舉幾個例子，例如刪減你們的出國差旅費，這包含了學術會議、學術訪問，這個部分被刪了15%、三千多萬，還有出國的教育訓練也被刪了15%，像這些費用被刪掉後，實際影響到的是什麼樣的業務？因為國人可能不了解，以為就是搭飛機出國，實際上不知道你們去做什麼事情，現在被刪了15%，你們如何來調度呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我請國際處孟處長說明。"],["孟處長子青：吳委員，國際處處長孟子青報告。我們被刪掉出國旅費最大的影響就是年輕學者跟送學生出國參加學術會議及進行國際交流的短研計畫，這15%的刪減的確會造成我們必須要減低補助的金額或者是降低補助的名額，這個在今年應該是一定會反映出實質上的影響。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們目前會是以減少名額的方式，還是名額維持但補助金額降低？"],["孟處長子青：這個我們還在評估，但是可能會是以減少名額的方式，在補助金額方面，還是會給每一位送出去的同仁可以支應旅費的金額，這樣可能對每一個人的影響會比較少一點。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，我們還是非常希望明年，因為預算還有明年嘛，就是未來這些預算有機會都要把它加回來，因為就我們所知，其實過去就已經都希望要持續增加了。"],["孟處長子青：委員，我們到年中之後會再評估，如果有一些我們院內的預算可以想辦法挪移的話，我們當然會再繼續支持，但是這個可能需要再評估之後才能夠決定。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，沒錯，這也是我們立法院大家要共同來協商啦，因為我看這一次的刪減條件很多是「不得流用」，這個就會讓後面……"],["陳處長建璋：對，如果委員可以幫忙的話，如果可以將中研院排除「不得流用」這個限制，這樣對我們真的會有很大的幫助。謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：恐怕很多部會都希望可以排除「不得流用」，所以我就是要讓大家知道，這個「不得流用」的限制實際上會造成什麼樣的影響。幾位可以請回。","繼續請教院長有關於臺灣橋梁計畫，去年總統也有接見，這是世界和平基金會的主席來到臺灣，我看了中研院近日發布今年預計會在臺灣舉辦，預計除了中研院以外，包括臺大、清大、成大、師大、中興、東海、中國醫藥、亞洲、慈濟等大學也會一起來參與這個跨院校的合作計畫，我想這應該是今年臺灣學術界一個滿重大的盛事，能不能說明一下目前的進展及預計怎麼樣來進行？"],["廖院長俊智：我請國際處長來說明。"],["孟處長子青：吳委員，這個計畫從今年11月到明年4月，在臺灣總共會邀請28位諾貝爾獎得主，涵蓋和平獎、化學、生醫跟物理，所以各領域都有，不過經濟目前沒有。他們除了在臺灣會公開演講之外，現在最重要的一個我們想要推動的事情是跟臺灣的學者、學生，甚至一些民眾，有一些深入的對話，我們希望這個活動可以讓臺灣走入世界，也讓世界看到臺灣。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，10位諾貝爾獎得主……"],["廖院長俊智：28位。"],["孟處長子青：28位，10位是本院支持。這個臺灣橋梁計畫就像您剛剛說的，包括各個不同的學校參與，所以總共會有28位。"],["吳委員沛憶：28位的諾貝爾獎得主來到臺灣，這個恐怕是盛況空前，所以我希望你們可以多加強交流相關的宣傳，我覺得除了學術圈以外，也應該可以跟國人一起來分享，這是非常重要的、知識性的相關交流。"],["孟處長子青：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。","接下來要關心的是，因為我看到BBC有一個報導提到2024全球電力需求持續增長，來自乾淨能源的貢獻已經超過了四成，其中太陽能發電量的成長是最快的，過去三年太陽能已經增長了一倍。中研院近日宣布，院長今天也有報告，就是我們的太陽能技術，我們的光電轉換效率已經超過了31%，這個下世代太陽能電池元件比目前市售產品轉換效率高出三成以上，所以可能很多人就在期待，未來關於它的技術量產、落地的應用等等，這個部分怎麼樣來進行、進展，能不能請院長說明？"],["廖院長俊智：我請關鍵中心主任來回答。"],["李副執行秘書兼主任超煌：委員好，我是關鍵中心主任李超煌。目前我們針對這個技術在3月26號已經開了一個疊層式太陽能技術說明會，大概全臺灣跟太陽能產業相關的，包括材料商、設備商、電池商、模組商都有派代表來參加，目前已經有兩個大的公司表示願意加入這個研發聯盟，我們期望初期是以共同研發的方式，然後各自去開發各自的製程，把這個技術真正落地在臺灣可以生產。謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個我覺得非常的重要，這是一個很重要的研究技術的突破，加上我們跟產業已經開始有在結盟，因為臺灣的太陽能板是2001年開始設置嘛，它的汰換年限差不多20年，所以未來這個如果能夠技術應用的話，除了是在新的案場，我們既有案場要更新的時候剛好就搭上了這個時間點，所以非常的重要也非常的期待，請中研院繼續努力加油，我們國人都會支持你們。謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員。"],["主席（吳委員沛憶代）：請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160078","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160078","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97123b353b4d4205320cf11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba9927d7f1e23708bebc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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在場的委員先進 列席的政府計劃所長 官員 會長 共同國大媒體 記者 女士先生請來的比較多 有請楊總裁那麼請蔡局長協助那金管會請彭主委主席總裁請陳主席長陳主席長 陳主席長 再請莊部長莊部長 請會長關進莊委員好好委員好"},{"start":36.087,"end":64.394,"text":"等一下我們主席講抱歉齁 幾位首長好齁今天我的題目很清楚高關稅排中來建立自貿同盟台幣升值跟美債減息兩害取其輕來 我要分別請教幾位首長齁請問一下我們看到了美國的關稅清單也看到了中國堅決反制這裡面台灣也列明其中請問川普的關稅清單是目的還是手段總裁你認為"},{"start":65.579,"end":83.854,"text":"我覺得呢簡單講是目的還是手段是手段也是目的好很好來我們請今晚會主委彭主委你認為是手段還是目的我的看法跟總裁一樣好很好莊部長那您的看法呢我跟總裁和主委的意見一樣哇很好來那麼我們的那個主席長"},{"start":86.482,"end":102.81,"text":"我也是覺得是一樣的啦好那總裁再請你回來大家都聽你的OK來我看齁我認為啊下一頁對中國的目的是圍堵但是對其他國家是要求你跟我談判我們看得很清楚川普說你中國對我不公平貿易說要對你加徵關稅"},{"start":104.551,"end":125.15,"text":"但是他對其他的國家說什麼?說我對你加徵關稅,但是你要對等關稅的話,我們就可以談,是不是這樣子?順序不一樣,結果中國很生氣,馬上去提高到84,結果他好,我就給你提高到125,結果現在很多國家已經表示我要跟你零關稅了,是不是這樣?那這樣結果會變成什麼呢?"},{"start":128.372,"end":154.078,"text":"可是當越南提出零關稅的時候美國說不是喔你的傾銷跟補貼貼補這個非關稅欺騙我要注意喔所以顯然的美國對有案零關稅是要建立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟但是也要嚴防大家去跟中國要好所以要圍堵中國往下看那既然美國川普政府對中國的目的是圍堵那對其他國家要求談判的目的有哪些"},{"start":155.311,"end":183.764,"text":"總裁我覺得啦我覺得啦就是說我那個還是我來跟你解釋一下好來這樣審視喔川普他說兩個任務要減少赤字一個要增加就業其中赤字有一個是貿易逆差一個是財政支出這當中的貿易逆差部分中國的不公平貿易是主要原因所以他加徵關稅同時籌組了一個自由貿易同盟彼此之間零關稅因此呢在美國市場上"},{"start":184.304,"end":204.143,"text":"中國商品沒有競爭力了出去了讓出來的位置讓其他零關稅同盟進來遞補而且這些零關稅同盟也對美國開放了市場美國想要透過這方式解決貿易逆差但是他一方面要增加就業要投資減稅要改善他中西部的弱勢經濟選民還有一個很重要的財政支出他要減少負債"},{"start":204.804,"end":213.344,"text":"要怎麼解決美國公債的問題總裁你同不同意這次川普我覺得我非常佩服委員你的整個邏輯是謝謝你的佩服我繼續讓你佩服來往下看"},{"start":216.448,"end":243.76,"text":"我們目前呢 談判小組它有幾個任務第一個 談判關稅 這是減輕逆差貨到對美採購 也是縮減美國逆差貨到對美投資 這是改善它的就業排除非關稅障礙 這些改善逆差解決稀產業問題 要防堵中國但是有沒有注意到這個小組有一個任務 寫在這裡台灣大部分的外匯準備是購買美國公債也可納入作為關稅下降的郵遞條件"},{"start":245.22,"end":266.221,"text":"總裁你認不認同這個報導我們的談判小組有這樣的一個籌碼我覺得也是也是喔很好很坦白那因為我這就不再對數了目前因為你說本來說92%你的副總裁說92%現在說82%所以我合理估計我們的外匯存益目前是5780億大概有推估4800億是由美在來持有好我們來看一下"},{"start":267.221,"end":289.576,"text":"剛剛議員有提到 美國面臨債務到期他有9兆 36兆的有9兆 今年要到期相當於什麼 聯邦總收入的兩倍其中在6月到期的呢 有6.5兆 我們看一下川普怎麼做 他要減少負債 要政府讓他瘦身 找了馬斯克然後呢 他有可能加稅嗎 很困難 現在關稅都零啦"},{"start":290.526,"end":315.115,"text":"要還債沒有錢還所以只剩什麼降低債息總裁你同不同意如果你是今天你是美國的財政部長你是美國的財政部長你認為減輕負債是不是這個是很重要的一個目標是啊是喔很好那往下看那請問總裁如果對美談判川普政府要求一台幣對美元升值跟B中央銀行持有部分美債減息你覺得哪一個對台灣的經濟衝擊比較大"},{"start":317.952,"end":343.339,"text":"我覺得這個哪一個衝擊比較大 二則一我覺得這兩個都不是很好都不是很好 我知道當然不好這才問你 兩害相權取其輕不是 我的意思就是說台幣對美元升值我先問你 哪一個對台灣影響比較大我都一直覺得台幣 兩個都不好台幣是由市場來決定的"},{"start":345.697,"end":365.825,"text":"好了,我就直接幫你講了,其實你兩個都不要了,但是被迫選的話,來看看你要選哪一個,我們來看一下下一頁,米倫,這是美國白宮經濟貿易顧問委員會的主席米倫,現在米倫在去年的11月他出了一個用戶指南,重組全國貿易體系,他講到什麼,講到說關稅本身不是目的是手段,"},{"start":366.505,"end":390.28,"text":"解答了是手段不是目的今天的報紙也寫到了根據米倫的用戶指南他說對等關稅有五種方式來協助ABCDE很清楚關稅不要報復打開市場就是解決逆差然後提高國防出資增加採購投資美國增加就業直接捐款給美國財政部這是有點戲謔的說法簡單講就是檢討美國財政部的什麼美債的負擔來往下看"},{"start":396.445,"end":422.925,"text":"美國的白宮經濟顧問委員會主席米倫的攝氧什麼他說接下來美國要有盟友來美債的部分手中的美債你們都有拿一部分來用超長期譬如說50到100年超低利譬如說2%來跟我買你們快到期的美債換買這個好不好可是這種影響會影響到我們外匯存備裡面的流動性這樣的美債沒有流動性等於是挖個坑把它買起來"},{"start":423.786,"end":440.365,"text":"第二個呢也會影響我們匯率風險的管理所以米倫不是不知道所以他提出一個方案快速換回美元現金的官方渠道他說如果你有一千億兩千億的美債換成了一百年五十年那你短期銷售怎麼辦我讓你短期回購機制"},{"start":442.233,"end":464.666,"text":"或者他說用一個類似SWAP SPOT的方式去互換協議總裁你認為這樣的米倫的建議有沒有可能當你要考慮被要求要買超長期低利的美債的時候你覺得這兩個有沒有幫助我們各種這樣我覺得米倫的這個建議是不合乎市場的運作"},{"start":466.275,"end":494.815,"text":"而且我覺得美國的公債它的殖利率是它美國金融市場的一個穩定的力量這個不是在金融上買的喔這個是恰特定客戶這是恰特定客戶對嘛所以也就是說如果說是這樣子的話你不要就是說是特定客戶就其他一般的投資人也會怕"},{"start":495.612,"end":498.233,"text":"今天如果說這個米倫說台灣來的談判小組我們現在談一下我這個建議你採論看看因為這隱含有什麼優勢當這兩個機制放進去的時候他形同是美國跟這些國家形成了一個沒有包括中國的準金融同盟啊"},{"start":514.762,"end":527.096,"text":"大家把美元的儲備跟美國綁在一起啊我跟委員報告啦我跟委員報告美國如果說就我的猜想啦我先來觀察美國呢是第一個他才會就是說就這個關稅的問題來解決這個問題"},{"start":531.221,"end":545.325,"text":"那講到這個的時候呢我還是覺得都不好都是言之貴早連講都不要講言之貴早我同意言之貴早因為現在還沒有到亮底牌的時候我也不是亂講我們就不要講了因為言之貴早就不要講了因為言之貴早還是亮底牌但是我們來看一下剛剛有位人問你啊合理的外匯儲備是多少彭淮南前副總裁提到說總裁說什麼"},{"start":555.788,"end":581.236,"text":"他說大概維持4千到4千5百美元這樣就很安全了你同意嗎?不你不同意?沒關係我知道你不同意就好總裁不見得意料一致往下看但是人家也當過總裁的人米倫方案的試算假如說台灣我們的外匯儲備是這麼多我們手上假設有4千8百億的美債其中我到期之後我拿1千億他說你有4千億就可以很安全了"},{"start":582.401,"end":597.084,"text":"到期之後我拿1000億來購買一個超低利的美債長期的結果呢美債利率現在4%假設協議的利率是2%結果我們在這50年當中或100年當中我們每年會損失這麼多有沒有很嚴重"},{"start":598.755,"end":605.461,"text":"我覺得很嚴重我想這個都是假設問題所以我就說這個假設的問題的時候呢很難回答假如說我們接受了這個提議我們的600億的利損小於目前現在的特別預算的880億"},{"start":618.653,"end":643.543,"text":"我們了解如果台灣可以換得美國相互零關稅我們有很多的好處也可以避免很多的損失我們880億要用來對付這個因為出口沒有辦法出口高關稅的報復之後我們要來紓困的跟我們剛剛談一個好的條件我們只是少損失了只是損失了600億的利損而且還是帳面上的好我們來看一下下一個所以我們來看一下"},{"start":644.483,"end":669.249,"text":"超長期低利的美債在米倫的方案當中如果現在以美國來講30年的國債他只要掉1%他的帳面30年的帳面就進賺20%對台灣來講當我跟美國談的那個交易我有短期的美元的流動性需求的時候他給我一個附帶美國央行免費的買權保證避開短期的利率風險你認為如果是這樣的交易台美有沒有雙贏"},{"start":670.428,"end":694.927,"text":"我跟委員報告啦 我總覺得米倫的這種推論是不確實際的好 米倫的推論不確實際第二點呢 我又說如果說這個是真正實施的時候呢我個人覺得 我個人判斷美國先發生金融危機然後造成整個全球的金融危機我了解 我了解我總裁的判斷"},{"start":695.767,"end":716.036,"text":"很可惜的自從剛剛那個之後就沒有得到你的肯定了後面你都否定最後我一個結論來請央行分別就台幣兌美元升值以及中央銀行持有部分美債降息分別提出經濟衝擊影響一個月內提出說明報告可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝宗教兵委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":795,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時54分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請楊總裁，請蔡局長協助；金管會請彭主委；主計總處請陳主計長；財政部請莊部長。"],["主席：請楊總裁、彭主委、陳市長、莊部長。"],["楊總裁金龍：鍾委員好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：幾位首長好。今天我的題目很清楚，高關稅排中以建立自貿同盟，臺幣升值跟美債減息兩害取其輕。我要分別請教幾位首長，請問一下，我們看到了美國的關稅清單，也看到了中國堅決反制，這裡面臺灣也列名其中，請問川普的關稅清單是目的還是手段？總裁，你認為呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單講，是目的還是手段？"],["楊總裁金龍：是手段也是目的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好。接著請教金管會彭主委，你認為是手段還是目的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我的看法跟總裁一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好。莊部長，您的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我跟總裁和主委的意見一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。主計長的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我也覺得是一樣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總裁，大家都聽你的。我認為，對中國的目的是圍堵，但是對其他國家是要求你跟我談判，我們看得很清楚，川普說：中國對我不公平貿易，所以要對中國加徵關稅。但是他對其他的國家說什麼？他說：我對你加徵關稅，但是你要對等關稅的話，我們是可以談的。是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：順序不一樣。結果中國很生氣，馬上提高到84%，而美國說：好，我就給你提高到125%。結果現在很多國家已經表示要跟它零關稅了，是不是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣的結果會變成什麼呢？可是當越南提出零關稅的時候，美國說：不是喔！你的傾銷跟出口補貼是「非關稅欺騙」，要注意喔！所以，顯然的，美國對友岸零關稅是要建立一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟，但是也要嚴防大家去跟中國要好，所以要圍堵中國。既然美國川普政府對中國的目的是圍堵，那對其他國家要求談判的目的有哪些？請總裁說明。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是我來跟你解釋一下，這樣比較省事！"],["楊總裁金龍：好，請說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：川普要做兩個任務，一個是減少赤字，一個是要增加就業，其中赤字有一個是貿易逆差，一個是財政支出，這當中的貿易逆差部分，中國的不公平貿易是主要原因，所以他加徵關稅，同時籌組了一個自由貿易同盟，彼此之間零關稅。因此，在美國市場上，中國商品沒有競爭力了，出去了，讓出來的位置，讓其他零關稅同盟進來遞補，而且這些零關稅同盟也對美國開放了市場，美國想要透過這方式解決貿易逆差。但是他一方面要增加就業、要投資減稅、要改善他中西部的弱勢經濟選民，還有一個很重要的財政支出，他要減少負債，即要解決美國公債的問題。總裁同不同意這樣的說法？"],["楊總裁金龍：我非常佩服委員的整個邏輯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝你的佩服，我繼續讓你佩服。我們目前的談判小組有幾個任務，第一個，談判關稅，要減輕逆差，包括擴大對美採購，也是縮減美國逆差；擴大對美投資，這是改善他的就業；排除非關稅障礙，這些也是改善逆差；解決洗產地問題，要防堵中國。但是有沒有注意到這個小組有一個任務？臺灣大部分的外匯準備是購買美國公債，也可納入作為關稅下降的有利條件，總裁，你認不認同這個報導？就是我們談判小組有這樣的一個籌碼。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得也是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好、很坦白。那我就不再贅述了，因為你的副總裁說92%，現在改說是82%，所以我合理估計我們的外匯存底目前是5,780億，推估大概持有美債4,800億。剛剛李委員提到美國面臨債務到期，36兆當中有9兆今年要到期，相當於聯邦總收入的兩倍，其中在6月到期的有6.5兆，對此，我們看一下川普怎麼做，他要減少負債，要讓政府瘦身，所以找了馬斯克；然後他有可能加稅嗎？很困難，現在關稅都零了；要還債沒有錢還，所以只剩什麼？降低債期。總裁同不同意，如果今天你是美國的財政部長，你認為減輕負債是不是一個很重要的目標？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。請問總裁如果對美談判，川普政府要求A.臺幣兌美元升值，B.中央銀行持有部分美債減息，你覺得哪一個對臺灣的經濟衝擊比較大？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪一個衝擊比較大？二擇一。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得這兩個都不是很好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都不是很好，我知道當然不好啊！所以才會問你，兩害相權取其輕，你認為哪一個比較嚴重？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我的意思是，臺幣兌美元升值……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問你，哪一個對臺灣影響比較大？"],["楊總裁金龍：我一直覺得臺幣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩個都不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：臺幣是由市場來決定的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我就直接幫你講，其實你兩個都不要，但是被迫要選的話，看看你要選哪一個？米倫是美國白宮經濟貿易顧問委員會的主席，米倫在去年11月出了一個用戶指南：重組全國貿易體系，他講到關稅本身不是目的而是手段，解答了，是手段不是目的。今天的報紙也寫到了，根據米倫的用戶指南，他說對等關稅有五種方式來協助，A、B、C、D、E很清楚，關稅不要報復，打開市場、解決逆差，提高國防支出、增加採購，投資美國、增加就業，還有直接捐款給美國財政部，這是有點戲謔的說法，簡單來講，就是減少美國財政部的美債負擔。","美國的白宮經濟顧問委員會主席米倫的設想是什麼？他說接下來美國要求盟友，對於美債的部分，你們手中都有美債，拿一部分來用超長期，譬如50年到100年的超低利息，假設用2%來跟他買，你們快到期的美債換買這個，好不好？可是這種會影響到我們外匯儲備的流動性，這樣的美債沒有流動性，等於是挖個坑把它埋起來；第二個，也會影響我們匯率風險的管理，所以米倫不是不知道，因此他提出一個方案，快速換回美元現金的官方渠道，他說：如果你有1,000億、2,000億的美債，換成了100年、50年，那短期要怎麼辦？讓你有短期回購機制（repo），或者用一個類似SWAP的方式做互換協議。總裁，你認為米倫這樣的建議有沒有可能？當你被要求買超長期低利美債時，你覺得這兩個方式有沒有幫助我們？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得米倫這個建議不合乎市場的運作，而且……"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛才就問你，如果要買超長期低利的美債，你同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得美國公債殖利率是美國金融市場的一個穩定力量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，這個不是在金融市場買的，這個是洽特定客戶。如果是給特定客戶，同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，也就是特定客戶……如果是這樣子，不要說是特定客戶，其他一般的投資人也會怕，不是只有特定客戶認為不合理……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不曉得其他投資人會不會怕，今天如果米倫說：臺灣來的談判小組，我們現在談一下，我這個建議你想看看。因為這對銀行有什麼優勢？當這兩個機制放進去之後，他們形同是跟美國這些國家形成了一個沒有包括中國的準金融同盟，把美元的儲備跟美國綁在一起。"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，就我的猜想和我現在的觀察，第一個，美國會就關稅問題來解決這個問題，講到這個的時候，我還是覺得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：都不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：都是言之過早……"],["鍾委員佳濱：連講都不要講？言之過早，我同意，因為現在還沒有到亮底牌的時候，我也不希望你現在講……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是關稅的問題都還沒有解決……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不要講了，言之過早就不要講了，因為講了就亮底牌。我們來看一下，剛剛有委員問你合理的外匯儲備是多少？彭淮南副總裁說了什麼？他說大概維持4,000到4,500美元，這樣就很安全了，你同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不同意？沒關係，我知道你不同意就好，總裁不見得意見一定要一致，但是人家也是當過總裁的人。米倫方案的試算，假如臺灣的外匯儲備是這麼多，我們手上假設有4,800億的美債，到期之後我拿1,000億，他說：你有4,000億就可以很安全了。到期之後，我拿1,000億來購買一個超低利的長期美債，結果美債利率現在4%，假設協議的利率是2%，在這50年或100年當中，我們每年會損失這麼多，有沒有很嚴重？我覺得很嚴重。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這都是假設問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是假設，所以才我問你嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我就說這個假設問題的時候，我總覺得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很難回答。但是我們讓社會來看一看，假如我們接受了這個提議，我們600億的利損小於目前現在特別預算的880億。我們了解，如果臺灣可以換得美國相互零關稅，我們有很多的好處，也可以避免很多的損失，我們的880億要用來對付這個，因為沒有辦法出口，高關稅的報復之後，我們要來紓困，我們跟他們談一個好的條件，我們只是損失了600億的利損，而且還是帳面上的。超長期低利的美債在米倫的方案當中，如果現在以美國來講，以30年的國債為例，只要掉1%，他們30年的帳面就淨賺20%，對臺灣來講，當我們跟美國談交易，我們有短期美元的流動性需求時，他們給我們一個附帶美國央行免費的買權保證，避開短期的利率風險，如果是這樣的交易，你認為臺美有沒有雙贏？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，我總覺得米倫的這種推論是不切實際的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，米倫的推論不切實際，請我們的談判代表跟他講。"],["楊總裁金龍：第二點，如果這個真正實施，我個人覺得、我個人判斷，美國先發生金融危機……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好……"],["楊總裁金龍：然後造成全球的金融危機。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解總裁的判斷，很可惜的，自從剛剛那個之後就沒有得到你的肯定，後面你都否定。","最後我做一個結論，請央行分別就臺幣兌美元升值，以及中央銀行持有部分美債降息分別提出經濟衝擊影響，一個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，沒問題，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員質詢。","我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席：報告委員會，我們繼續開會。","請大家幫忙維持會場秩序，如果需要講話請到室外講話，因為我們在裡面開會。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160076","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160076","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97124c26bcd9477975a9f9600c3f6b437ac21a30f584bceeba9905c5a8ea7217bbf85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:53:04 - 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謝謝我謝謝外交部我們請這個談判代表我們的副總談判代表"},{"start":231.784,"end":246.239,"text":"美國近日有32%的關稅,我們現在正式大概是會暫緩,會以10%來去課稅那歐盟呢?歐盟也是一樣,現在所有的國家都是,現在有180個國家以上都是10%"},{"start":253.127,"end":275.258,"text":"那川普的這個他最新的宣布是75個國家會有4%那其實是不只75個國家對他是對全球都科徵對等關稅而對等關稅的起步的稅率是10%那有50就是他現在所謂的75個國家是有比10%更高的個別國家關稅像台灣就是有32%的關稅他現在是暫緩這個個別國家的對等關稅"},{"start":278.905,"end":305.663,"text":"OK 所以就是回復到10% 是那歐盟 我這麼講好像是歐盟儘管說有做某種程度的對等的報復但是他目前還是10%還是維持10%還是維持10%那所以說這證明說美國他對他的盟友在此時此刻還是有跟非盟友是有差別對待的我們這樣的理解是可以的嗎目前我們所看到的只有對於中國他直接立即提高關稅其他的國家都是維持10%"},{"start":307.079,"end":322.517,"text":"近期我們看到美國研究所AEI有說到這個實際的稅率他提到說他的這個公式裡面對台灣的公式是公佈數值的大約四分之一所以對日本的關稅不應該是24%對台灣的關稅不應該是32%我們現在是有豁免大概90天對不對"},{"start":327.208,"end":346.839,"text":"是所以在這90天的過程中包含這些智庫我們跟智庫的合作跟他們的輿論的影響其實是有重要性的我想這一次就是因為這樣子川普總統才能夠把32%先暫緩執行90天那我必須想請教一下副代表以這樣子的公式來看的話"},{"start":348.154,"end":373.665,"text":"他是在錯誤的地方在哪裡就是他們當初在美方政府他的錯誤的地方在哪裡那AI他們標示的計算的不合理的地方在哪裡這個公式我們可能要回去再去研析一下但是最主要的是我們認為現在因為他的計算方式基本上是用台灣的貿易逆差去出於美國從台灣進口的總額所以那我們覺得台灣的貿易逆差"},{"start":374.425,"end":396.12,"text":"實際上他只用這個去年所產生的這個數字並不是很公平的對台灣去做一個衡量的跑因為我們這兩年是因為第一個在這個美中的第一代的貿易戰之下然後大量的台商回流第二個是因為台灣在美國在AI產業的促進之下所以我們很多的產品這些半導體有關的產品大量出現"},{"start":398.422,"end":415.091,"text":"他們相關的新聞出到現在已經有一週了那我們現在有90天的時間當然比較好但是如果說過了一週我們還沒有這AI是很重要的智庫當他們在替我們說話的時候我們還沒有辦法去理解說這個公式的不合理性"},{"start":415.956,"end":442.03,"text":"那就是我們必須要快速的去應對的包含經濟部也是昨天經濟部部長有被質詢到那這些理解的方式跟要趕快讓我們的這一些領導的部會的首長能夠快速的去理解這樣可不可以沒有問題那我想我現在簡單看了一下他主要是提到的是美國因為他對於所有的進口國家的來源他的所謂進口替代的這些價格的彈性"},{"start":442.415,"end":461.854,"text":"他都給予同樣的價格但是每個國家實際上跟美國的關係是不同的沒錯好謝謝那副代表趕快再講一下這個關於這整體的談判架構上面我們現在很擔心的特別是農業線或者是傳產的產業我們擔心的是說他們把這個半導體排除然後來去談農業跟這個傳產的話"},{"start":465.317,"end":487.709,"text":"對我們的這個談判的優勢會不會來去做削減那不是希望說能夠以單一整體性的協議架構就是說把我們的這個擔心的部分特別是農業的部分因為我們非常擔心這個談判辦公室有沒有針對說如果未來為了換取台灣的整體出口利益而必須在稻米牛豬等其他的敏感的農產品上"},{"start":489.21,"end":504.029,"text":"可能要對美國會不會有這樣子要做更大程度的開放如果是這樣的話那對我們的衝擊就會很大我想請教一下你們有沒有先做可能的情境來進行政府的這個模擬的整備工作至少這些數字還有這些計算有沒有開始在做這些事情呢"},{"start":504.776,"end":522.486,"text":"我想我們從去年11月開始在行政院這邊已經成立了台美經貿工作小組就一直在做這些研擬那我們在預作準備那當然32%公布之後呢對台灣來說因為前幾天我們總統也已經宣布了就是說我們接下來會希望以零關稅為基礎來開始做協商"},{"start":525.031,"end":549.284,"text":"那這對我們農業的就會有開始我們很擔憂啦可能就對我們農業就會有影響那現在的880億的特別預算裡面針對農業是180億所以說談判辦公室的有任何的跟農業相關的進度的話就必須要立刻轉資農業部那農業部在做未來的準備的時候有足夠的資源來去跟足夠的時間來去應變那我還是在特別講因為現在"},{"start":550.345,"end":574.497,"text":"每天都有變化每天都有變化每天都必須要掌握我們的權勢權跟我們的話語權像是AEI它能夠在第一時間就來提出說這一個算是對日本跟台灣不公平是他們提出來了是駐在美國在美國的智庫在聽我們說話那我們直到昨天包含其他委員在質詢經濟部部長的時候"},{"start":576.533,"end":591.674,"text":"沒有再做這個快速的回應的話我們必須要比他們還要再早這是第一點第二點也是外交部在對美的這些智庫不管是傳統基金會AEI這些比較跟共和黨親近的執政黨親近的智庫立刻要做好"},{"start":592.625,"end":607.345,"text":"更完善的一個說詞跟說法確保我國的利益能夠被保護好不好那完全同意我們跟AEI跟這個heritage都有非常密切的關係很好因為我還是在強調這個這沒有什麼好大的一盤棋是"},{"start":607.918,"end":626.299,"text":"有的就是我們要把我們所有的資源都放在能夠使用的資源上面所有的說法所有的管道所有的全面性的來去營造對台灣有利的輿論環境只有對台灣有利的輿論環境我們才可以爭取到更多的外交籌碼這是中等國家必須要爭取的"},{"start":626.86,"end":641.906,"text":"致庫還有我們的這個臺灣辦公室也好還有不管是參眾醫院國會也好所以這個外交部跟經濟部這都是一起的事情甚至科技部也要仔細思考一下我們數位部現在已經沒有科技部數位部都一起來聯合一下好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":367,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時53分）我們先請外交部。"],["陳次長明祺：委員您好。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長，我們來看一下現在整體的外交政策，可能我們要面臨一個要調整的階段。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：過去這一、二十年來，應該說二、三十年來，我們跟包含美國為主的盟邦，都是以貿易促進外交，用外交來促進包含中國等國的改變，在2000年初有嘗試著這樣子的作法，但是經過二十多年的交往之後，我們發覺到中國在市場上面的傾銷、掠奪，或者是用補貼等等不對等的作法之後，以美國為首的盟國開始知道中國可能沒有辦法做完整的、全面性的、公平的貿易，所以開始改用貿易作為一個武器，特別是在川普總統之後。以貿易作為武器去遏止中國這種勢力的拓展，在今天我們可以看到它已經再次被證實，包含許多盟國大概都是在10%左右，但是中國卻被強制增到一百多percent，對我國來講，它的非紅供應鏈是可以去壓制中國的。我想請教一下次長，你們針對外交上面戰略的變化有沒有做好準備，跟未來我們要怎麼樣去把我們的論述做調整？"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝委員的提問。我們的外交當然是跟著整個大的形勢在變，它有它變的地方跟它不變的地方，不變的地方是在於臺灣跟美國之間的安全承諾，以及在維護臺海和平穩定上面的共同努力，這個是沒有改變的！我們看到包括在美日高峰會議時候的聯合聲明，美、日、韓三國外長在慕尼黑安全對話場邊的聯合聲明，以及G7的外長會議聯合聲明上面其實都展現了，以及我們看到美國的新任國防部長Hegseth就任以來的第一次出訪，訪問了菲律賓、訪問了日本，像這個東西都展現出他對這個區域的承諾，第二個是他們堅定守護這個地方和平穩定的……"],["陳委員冠廷：等一下，次長，我在講的是我們未來的論述，我不是要叫你敘述現在的狀況。比方我們未來的論述可以說什麼，就是我國跟美國的安全上面為主，包含一些資源運送到臺灣，我們是整個跟美國做一個結合，這就是非紅供應鏈一個最好的方式，從能源開始，到製造業開始，我們是美國最好的夥伴，這些東西我們可以化為我們談判的優勢，這是我們的論述之一，鞏固臺灣可以鞏固美國的利益，鞏固臺灣的利益就是鞏固美國的利益，類似這樣的論述是可以做改變的，我不是請你敘述現在的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["陳次長明祺：完全同意！包含第二個是其實川普總統對於AI的重視，臺灣製造業的能力是美國最好的夥伴關係，如果美國要繼續在AI這個領域上面有一個獨步全球的地位的話，臺灣是不可或缺的一部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝外交部，請副總談判代表。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：副代表好。美國近日32%的關稅現在是正式暫緩，並以10%課稅嘛！"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：歐盟呢？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：歐盟也是一樣。"],["陳委員冠廷：也是10%？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：現在所有國家都是。"],["陳委員冠廷：75個國家裡面？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：現在有180個國家以上都是10%。"],["陳委員冠廷：180個國家都是，但川普最新的宣布是75個國家會有10%，其實是不止75個國家？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，他是對全球都課徵對等關稅，而對等關稅起步的稅率是10%，他現在所謂的75個國家是有比10%更高的個別國家關稅，像臺灣就是有32%的關稅，他現在是暫緩這個個別國家的對等關稅。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，所以就是回復到10%？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：那歐盟，我這麼講好了，就是歐盟儘管有做某種程度的對等報復，但是目前他還是10%？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：還是維持10%。"],["陳委員冠廷：還是維持10%，所以這證明美國對他的盟友在此時此刻還是跟非盟友有差別對待，我們這樣的理解是可以的嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：目前我們所看到的只有對於中國直接立即提高關稅，其他的國家都是維持10%。"],["陳委員冠廷：近期我們看到美國企業研究所，就是AEI，有說到實際稅率僅是這個公式裡面公布數值的大約四分之一，所以對日本的關稅不應該是24%，對臺灣的關稅不應該是32%。我們現在是有豁免大概90天，對不對？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以在這90天的過程中，包含我們跟這些智庫的合作跟他們輿論的影響，其實是有重要性的，我想這一次就是因為這樣子，川普總統才能夠把32%先暫緩執行90天。我想請教一下副代表，以這樣子的公式來看的話，它錯誤的地方在哪裡？就是當初美方政府錯誤的地方在哪裡？AEI標示計算不合理的地方在哪裡？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這個公式我們可能要回去再研析一下，但是最主要的是它的計算方式基本上是用臺灣的貿易逆差去除以美國從臺灣進口的總額，我們覺得實際上它只用了去年所產生的數字，並不是很公平的對臺灣去做一個衡量，我們這兩年是因為，第一個、在美中第一代貿易戰之下，大量台商回流，第二個是因為在美國AI產業的促進之下，所以我們很多與半導體有關的產品大量出口……"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。副代表，我的意思是相關新聞出現到現在已經有一週了，我們現在有90天的時間當然比較好，但是這應該是很重要的智庫，當他們在替我們說話的時候，我們還沒有辦法去理解這個公式的不合理性，那就是我們必須要快速去應對的。包含經濟部也是，昨天經濟部部長有被質詢到。要趕快讓我們這些領導的部會首長能夠快速的去理解，這樣可不可以？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：沒有問題，我現在簡單看了一下，這主要提到的是美國對於所有進口來源國家所謂進口替代價格的彈性，他都給予同樣的價格，但是每個國家實際上跟美國的關係是不同的。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯。好，謝謝。","另外，我們再講一下，關於整體的談判架構，我們現在很擔心，特別是農業縣或者是傳產的產業，我們擔心的是他們把半導體排除，然後去談農業跟傳產，這對我們的談判優勢會不會做削減？我們是希望能夠以單一整體性的協議架構，就是把我們擔心的部分，特別是農業的部分，因為我們非常擔心，談判辦公室有沒有針對，如果未來為了換取臺灣的整體出口利益，而必須在稻米、牛、豬等其他敏感的農產品上，可能對美國會不會要做更大程度的開放？如果是這樣的話，對我們的衝擊就會很大，我想請教你們有沒有先就可能的情境來進行政府的模擬整備工作？至少這些數字還有這些計算，有沒有開始在做這些事情了？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們從去年11月開始，在行政院已經成立了臺美經貿工作小組，就一直在做這些研擬，我們在預做準備，當然32%公布之後，對臺灣來說，前幾天總統也已經宣布，接下來我們會希望以零關稅為基礎來開始做協商。"],["陳委員冠廷：我很擔憂這對我們農業可能就會有影響，現在的880億特別預算裡面針對農業是180億，所以談判辦公室有任何跟農業相關的進度，就必須要立刻轉知農業部，讓農業部在做未來的準備時，有足夠的資源跟足夠的時間去應變。我還是再特別講，因為現在每天都有變化，每天都必須要掌握我們的詮釋權跟我們的話語權，像AEI能夠在第一時間提出這算式對日本跟臺灣不公平，是他們提出來的，是在美國的智庫在替我們說話，但我們直到昨天，包含其他委員在質詢經濟部部長的時候，沒有在做快速回應，我們必須要比他們還要再早，這是第一點。","第二點，請外交部對美的這些智庫，不管是傳統基金會、AEI，這些比較跟共和黨親近、跟執政黨親近的智庫，立刻要做好更完善的說詞跟說法，確保我國的利益能夠被保護，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：完全同意，我們跟AEI跟Heritage都有非常密切的關係。"],["陳委員冠廷：很好，我還是再強調，這沒有什麼好大的一盤棋，有的就是我們要把我們所有的資源都放在能夠使用的資源上面……"],["陳次長明祺：完全同意。"],["陳委員冠廷：所有的說法、所有的管道、所有的全面性的去營造對臺灣有利的輿論環境，只有對臺灣有利的輿論環境，我們才可以爭取到更多的外交籌碼，這是中等國家必須要爭取的……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：智庫或是談判辦公室也好，還有不管是參眾議院（國會）也好，外交部跟經濟部，這都是一起的事情，甚至數位部也要仔細思考一下，大家要一起來聯合。謝謝次長。"],["陳次長明祺：完全同意，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160075","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160075","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712eef73fd2fa735f59f179c558939ff9891a30f584bceeba99d5e1cc8b62ce6a6b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:49:56 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將近6萬塊可是我們的媒體政策及業務生產費"},{"start":280.899,"end":288.534,"text":"少只剩下從49萬變6萬那我想知道那這個今年的規模會不會有什麼樣子的影響可不可以清楚的說明一下我們請秘書處長來回答"},{"start":290.56,"end":313.727,"text":"委員好 秘書處處長曾國祥對 因為由於受到這個經費的煽動那我們所有的活動基本上都是要由所中心來這個響應那因為所中心還是以研究為主那在這個經費有限情況之下今年的規模確實可能會變小此外如同委員所提到的因為我們的這個沒宣費同時佔了60%所以今年的宣傳的力道就不會像往年那麼樣的積極"},{"start":314.907,"end":341.968,"text":"所以可能參與的人數方面可能也會比較不如預期但是我們還是會盡力把這個活動辦好謝謝我想問一下就是說場次呢因為去年原本就是大家都非常的期待可以有更多的場次嘛那今年的場次是不是會變少對因為我們還要跟所中心進行這個醫院的調查那我剛才所說的因為經費的刪減那我不太想對那大家還是會以研究為優先所以在場次的方面我們不敢很樂觀的預估"},{"start":343.029,"end":358.347,"text":"好 那我可以簡單的跟您確認一下就是說我去年去的時候我們其實現場結合了我們的研究有做一些很可愛的扭蛋機然後我們還會送一些就是給小朋友的一些贈品然後還有一些很有趣的場次所以是不是這些通通都有可能會消失"},{"start":358.968,"end":378.203,"text":"我們會盡力的還是會希望能夠繼續辦下去那因為這個如同愛說的因為宣傳費用是減少的所以我們的做法大概就會比較回到傳統的方式用公務機關的譬如說用公文用我們的自己的新聞稿這樣的方式來做宣傳"},{"start":378.803,"end":399.666,"text":"好的沒關係因為我想這個是藍白亂山預算造成一個後果啦但是我希望還是可以幫我這邊用我們的臉書的平台社群的平台一起來幫忙宣傳所以到時候如果有相關的資訊的話也希望pass到我們這邊我們一起來做宣傳讓更多的孩子有機會可以來參與這麼有好這麼優質的一個運動那接下來再請請教一下院長就是有關於才化法"},{"start":400.487,"end":425.66,"text":"就是剛剛講這種預算啦可是才化法也會受到一些影響嘛所以我想要請教就是說之前有團體連署就是才化法的修法可能會讓我們的科研預算倒退10年那我自己大概去估算因為像我看了國科會說它大概有200億的影響那我自己算了一下這個可能會是中研院的一個影響大概就是從學研領域會少14萬自然人文的研究也會少14萬"},{"start":426.781,"end":441.77,"text":"所以大概總共會有28億的影響我不曉得說院長現在有沒有一些相關的預估金額跟影響這個金額到目前為止是非常難估算的那假如這個委員的數字是對的話那對我們影響是非常非常大的"},{"start":443.671,"end":457.298,"text":"這方向我想我們是有點不確定性特別是對未來這個科研需要除了不能刪之外更應該要加碼投資在這狀況之下我們確實是有點擔憂"},{"start":460.803,"end":487.075,"text":"對 那我想可能接下來也可能要再看院長也可能要開始來評估一下就是這28%下去之後我們的實際影響可能會是哪些可能要做一些因應的部分尤其剛剛有講到就是說全球的AI都在競爭大家都那麼的競爭可是我們卻在國家打擊自己的士氣打擊自己的研究計畫但是我想我們還是可能要有一些因應的作為可能要請院長要積極的來做那最後一件事情我想要講的是說"},{"start":488.155,"end":509.426,"text":"其實比較輕鬆的事情啦就是說中研院其實一直都有一些相關的出版品那大概已經有累積了三千多件的一個出版品喔但是呢兒童面相的出版品從2008年到現在只有這一本啦整個這17年來只有這一本喔那其實因為受到這個兒童權利公約的關係喔其實許多的部會都開始製作了相關的"},{"start":510.326,"end":535.558,"text":"這些繪本就可能簡單讓孩子可以更了解他們這個機構在做什麼像這個是國政中心他們做的一些很有趣的這種翻番書立體的翻番書可以讓小朋友透過這些書可以更了解地震的時候他應該怎麼預防怎麼避難像這個是農業署做的去講有關於胎險的故事也是一個很可愛的繪本"},{"start":536.653,"end":563.162,"text":"所以我只是想說因為其實在法國它也有一個國家科學研究中心他們也是用非常可愛的方式去講分子科學那我們是不是也有可能來研擬一下有沒有可能來製作一本講述中研院某一個領域研究的書呢或者是把我們兒童科普日的東西再濃縮起來做一個很可愛的繪本可以跟孩子來介紹呢"},{"start":563.749,"end":586.414,"text":"這方面是很好建議但是因為我們中醫院這個目前沒有這方面的人才這個也恐怕也不是我們的專長那加上這個大家現在忙於這個做這個在這個可用預算之下能夠照顧好自己的最基礎的研究所以這方面我們目前大概只能是來"},{"start":589.655,"end":604.145,"text":"來規劃來檢視看我們有沒有這方面的能量那委員的建議是非常好這些都非常可愛的繪本比較可行的方式可能是我們找外面的單位一起來合作那我們來跟專家一起來做這個可能比較可行"},{"start":604.824,"end":628.465,"text":"好 我了解了那就是希望就是我非常可以清楚的了解就是院長也有這個心想要來跟外部團隊一起來思考看看但我也非常清楚的知道說因為現在的預算現在預算受到非常大的影響所以以至於現在這本可能執行上面會有一些難度那我們就希望說今年接下來我們"},{"start":629.266,"end":639.651,"text":"我們黨跟民眾黨的委員在審相關預算的時候要更謹慎不然他不僅是打擊了我們的研究團隊的士氣也好他可能也會犧牲掉我們兒童可以親近科普知識的機會謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":525,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時49分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：院長好。前面有非常多委員關心有關於美國關稅的議題是不是有跟中研院做一些相關的請教，因為這件事情其實引發了世界各國政府的一些震盪，然後也讓大家對未來都非常的憂心，不過我在網路上面有看到中研院經濟所的許文泰研究員寫了相關的文章來跟大家分析，這個文章其實也受到非常多人認同、轉載，然後也有國外的媒體做了一些採訪。我想這其實彰顯了一個很重要的事情，就是中研院是臺灣的智庫、是臺灣的大腦，這是一個非常重要的單位，所以我們在中研院的預算上面應該要更審慎。接下來我要問的其實跟這篇文章無關，我主要是想要請教一下，這位許文泰研究員所寫的「臺灣怎麼辦？」給了我們一些方向，那我現在就想要請教院長，那中研院怎麼辦？就是我們面對這一次大規模的總預算刪減案，我知道之前院長其實也有相關的發言，就是講到對中研院的一些影響，所以我想要請教一下，我知道院長已經啟動了院內經費彈性調配，優先確保研究人員薪水以及核心計畫的運作，例如去碳燃氫的計畫因為是屬於新興計畫，所以在立法院沒有審過這個預算之前，每月逾百萬元的人力成本暫時由其他研究經費來支應。還有宜蘭地熱探勘團隊開挖深度達1,000公尺，這個經費也是透過既有的計畫來支應。但是我想請教院長這樣子的調控能夠撐多久，還有這樣子的調控會導致哪些計畫受影響，可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["廖院長俊智：好，據我了解，去碳燃氫計畫這個部分在上個禮拜已經通過了。"],["陳處長建璋：我是學術處的陳建璋，我說明一下，在新的計畫中，在去碳燃氫裡面有一支有受到影響，因為它是屬於新的公共建設計畫，那一支我們所受的影響大概是1,000萬元左右。然後我們自己院內有一個跟AI相關的計畫，就是AI在人文與科學研究的創新應用計畫，那一支計畫也有受到影響，大概受到一百多萬的影響，然後這些計畫都還是被凍結30%。"],["張委員雅琳：因為你調配了一些計畫，那一定有一些計畫也要做一些縮減，對不對？對這個部分是不是也可以簡單說明一下實際上的影響？我希望可以清楚地說明，讓大家知道因為這一次的預算刪減案對我們中研院的學術研究會產生什麼樣的實質影響。"],["廖院長俊智：我想最大的影響是讓大家的企圖心不見了，就是反正我做多也是OK，我做少一樣可以交差，原來是更加有企圖心的往更先進、更前瞻的方向做，那或許這方面讓大家感覺……"],["張委員雅琳：打擊很大。"],["廖院長俊智：就會覺得不是這樣子的狀況，這方面的影響是沒有辦法來量化、沒辦法來實質說明的，因為是大家心理層面上的。"],["張委員雅琳：我想這種心理層面的影響是非常非常可怕的，就像我們在講學生在學習時最怕的就是他失去了好奇心還有他的學習動機，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["張委員雅琳：像這樣子的刪減案，其實並不是只有研究計畫和臺灣未來智庫的擴充、知識的量能擴充會受到影響，還有我們這些研究人員的熱情、創造力跟研究的動能都會受到影響，所以我希望有在觀看我們直播的所有臺灣公民朋友都要非常了解，這次的刪減預算案讓團體的士氣、研究都受到非常大的打擊。","我想要再請教院長，就是我自己非常關心兒童科普日這件事情，在過去這幾年其實兒童科普日也都帶來非常多的人潮，然後也做了非常好的兒童科普基層教育，所以在家長之間大受好評。不過很可惜的是我們看到114年的業務費雖然沒有做太多的調整，只有將近6萬塊，可是我們的媒體政策及業務宣傳費從49萬變成6萬，我想知道對今年的規模會不會有什麼樣的影響，可不可以清楚的說明一下？"],["廖院長俊智：我們請秘書處處長來回答。"],["曾處長國祥：委員好，我是秘書處處長曾國祥。由於經費受到刪凍，我們所有的活動基本上都是要由所中心來響應，可是因為所中心還是以研究為主，在經費有限的情況之下，今年的規模確實可能會變小。此外，如同委員所提到的，因為我們的媒宣費統刪了60%，今年的宣傳力道就不會像往年那麼積極，所以在參與的人數方面可能也會比較不如預期，但是我們還是會盡力把這個活動辦好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下場次，因為去年原本大家都非常的期待可以有更多的場次，那今年的場次是不是會變少？"],["曾處長國祥：對，因為我們還要跟所中心進行意願的調查，如同我剛才所說的，因為經費的刪減……"],["張委員雅琳：打擊。"],["曾處長國祥：對，大家還是會以研究為優先，所以在場次的方面我們不敢很樂觀的預估。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我簡單的跟您確認一下，就是在我去年去參加的時候，其實現場有結合了我們的研究做了一些很可愛的扭蛋機，然後還會送一些贈品給小朋友，而且還有一些很有趣的場次，所以這些是不是通通都有可能會消失？"],["曾處長國祥：我們會盡力，還是希望能夠繼續辦下去。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["曾處長國祥：如同剛才所說的，因為宣傳費用減少了，所以我們的作法大概就會比較回到公務機關傳統的方式，譬如說用公文、用我們自己的新聞稿這樣的方式來做宣傳。"],["張委員雅琳：好的，沒關係，因為我想這個是藍白亂刪預算所造成的後果，但是我希望還是可以由我這邊用我們的臉書的平臺、社群的平臺一起來幫忙宣傳，所以到時候如果有相關資訊的話，也希望pass到我們這邊，我們一起來做宣傳，讓更多的孩子有機會可以來參與這麼好、這麼優質的運動。"],["曾處長國祥：謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來再請教一下院長有關於財劃法的問題，我剛剛講的是總預算，可是財劃法也會受到一些影響，所以我想要請教院長，之前有團體連署，就是認為財劃法的修法可能會讓我們的科研預算倒退10年，我自己有大概去估算，我看到國科會說他們大概有200億受到影響，那我自己算了一下中研院可能會受到的影響，大概就是學研領域會少14億、自然人文的研究也會少14億，所以大概總共會有28億的影響，院長現在對所受影響有沒有一些相關的預估金額？"],["廖院長俊智：這個金額到目前為止是非常難估算的，假如委員所提數字是對的話，那對我們的影響是非常非常大的，在方向上我想我們是有一點不確定性，特別是對於未來科研的需要，除了不能刪之外，更應該要加碼投資，在現在這樣的狀況之下，我們確實是有一點擔憂。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我想接下來可能院長要開始來評估一下，就是少了這28億之後對中研院的實質影響可能會是哪些，可能要做一些因應的部分，尤其剛剛有講到，就是全球的AI都在競爭，大家都那麼的競爭，可是我們卻在國家打擊自己的士氣、打擊自己的研究計畫，但是我想我們還是要有一些因應的作為，也請院長要積極地來做。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要講最後一件事情，其實這是比較輕鬆的事情，就是中研院一直都有一些相關的出版品，大概已經有累積了三千多件出版品，但是在兒童面向的出版品從2008年到現在只有這一本，在這17年來只有這一本，因為兒童權利公約的關係，其實許多的部會都開始製作了相關的繪本，讓孩子可以更簡單的了解他們這個機構在做什麼，像這個是國震中心所做的一些很有趣的立體翻翻書，可以讓小朋友透過這些書更了解發生地震的時候應該要怎麼預防危險、怎麼避難；像這個是農業部林業署所做的關於苔蘚故事的出版品，也是一個很可愛的繪本。所以我只是想說，其實在法國也有一個國家科學研究中心，他們也是用非常可愛的方式去講分子科學，我們是不是也有可能來研擬製作一本講述中研院某一個研究領域的書呢？或者是把我們兒童科普日的東西再濃縮起來，做一個很可愛的繪本來跟孩子介紹呢？"],["廖院長俊智：這方面是很好的建議，但是因為我們中研院目前沒有這方面的人才，這個恐怕也不是我們的專長，加上大家現在忙於在可用的預算之下能夠照顧好自己最基礎的研究，所以這方面我們目前大概只能來規劃、檢視看看我們有沒有這方面的能量，委員的建議非常好，這些都是非常可愛的繪本，比較可行的方式可能是我們找外面的單位一起來合作，我們跟專家一起來做，這個可能比較可行。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我瞭解了，我可以非常清楚地瞭解院長有這個心想要跟外部團隊一起來思考看看，但我也非常清楚地知道因為現在預算受到非常大的影響，以致於這本可能在執行上面會有一些難度，我們希望今年接下來國民黨跟民眾黨的委員在審相關預算的時候要更謹慎，不然他們不僅是打擊了我們研究團隊的士氣，可能也會犧牲掉我們兒童可以親近科普知識的機會。謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，院長請回，謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160074","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160074","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971258dba2e66824219f39fb4699fde532611a30f584bceeba99f111b4a95254ccde5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:43:21 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10:54:36","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：\n(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)本院委員林思銘等20人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」9案：\n(一)\t本院委員鍾佳濱等18人、委員鍾佳濱等23人、委員郭國文等17人、委員吳沛憶等18人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員吳沛憶等18人提案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n(二)\t本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-10","start_time":"2025-04-10T10:43:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T10:54:36+08:00","duration":675,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.37221875,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.69221875,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.45159375,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.47596875,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.90596875,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.199718750000002,"end":30.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.47784375,"end":29.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.33846875,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.291593750000004,"end":50.554718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.712843750000005,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.424093750000004,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.415343750000005,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.49409375,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.24909375,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.15471875,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.86721875,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.09471875000001,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.30471875,"end":113.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.24971875000001,"end":118.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.39659375000001,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.57784375000001,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.67909375,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.63659375,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.67034375,"end":121.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.50971875,"end":150.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.66409375,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.78534375,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.02471875,"end":150.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.07909375,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.02784375000002,"end":172.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.54409375,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.31534375,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.46221875,"end":198.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.76534375,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.02971875,"end":227.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.43846875000003,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.57346875000002,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":275.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.25221875000003,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.33534375000002,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.17471875,"end":241.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.89096875,"end":247.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.92471875,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.20721875000004,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.25221875,"end":285.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.45471875000004,"end":285.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.45409375,"end":303.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.98346875000004,"end":304.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.50659375000004,"end":310.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.07096875,"end":324.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.12159375000005,"end":311.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.26409375000003,"end":320.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.95971875000004,"end":323.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.25034375,"end":330.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.81534375,"end":352.24596875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看到新的新聞你昨天晚上你是什麼時候知道今天早上川普調整了降緩關稅目前調了10%我也是今天早上我才知道"},{"start":30.39,"end":49.466,"text":"今天早上才知道原來每天的狀況隨時都在改變這也就是長期以來我對於對美的關稅的談判匯率的談判很多其實我在文匯一直不斷的無論是提醒金管會財政部還有央行的地方"},{"start":51.608,"end":68.129,"text":"總裁今天早上川普說他早上才決定的那最主要理由暫緩關稅對等關稅的理由那CNN也提出說這個最主要背後的原因有可能是在近期美賽巨幅震盪的一個結果"},{"start":69.79,"end":87.935,"text":"嚇壞了財政部包括從二月初開始無論是中國大陸或日本不斷地提出要這個美債到期之後要贖回這都是其中的因素之一那你認不認同你覺得這個可能性高不高也就是說CNN提出來"},{"start":89.335,"end":104.663,"text":"川普暫緩關稅給予90天當然對大陸他達到125%關稅持續的延長那你覺得背後跟美債最近這段時間不斷的巨幅震盪你覺得這個理由合不合理"},{"start":105.564,"end":117.958,"text":"我覺得只是理由之一啦我個人判斷他不是理由之一?他不是最需要的理由?我覺得最重要的還是他的股市的一個股市的只有股市嗎?"},{"start":122.763,"end":148.237,"text":"對於全世界各國擁有美債的人如果在近期不斷的拋售美債大家都知道美債過去長期大家都認為是全世界資金的避風港它是穩定的但是在近期它變成是大怒神被很多國家到齊了它可能要贖回或者是大量的拋售這個對於美國金融體系的影響非常大我想你比我都還要專業你還要懂所以"},{"start":151.198,"end":171.863,"text":"所以我才說他會不會是主要的理由是因為CNN已經提出來了不是說CNN講的就對啦你覺得不對我只是說其中之一啊我也沒有就是說是他就是絕對就是這個啦但是有一點很重要的就是說美國呢他希望你看川普希望廢的降息"},{"start":172.623,"end":177.587,"text":"他希望他降息最主要的目的呢他是希望他的十年期的公債能夠降下來因為影響美國的經濟最主要的就是他長期債券的一個持續率持續率下降那也要代表就是說他的債勢他是穩定的沒有錯啊"},{"start":191.838,"end":199,"text":"最近整個大環境的狀況包括中國大陸日本他們打算要贖回其實也就是對於美國的經濟我剛剛也有引用一個數據啦我現在也提供委員參考就是說在沒有多久之前呢在還沒有這個事件之前呢美國的公債是多少美國公債十年級的公債是將近5%4.9幾"},{"start":214.285,"end":224.334,"text":"後來呢因為就是說這些的因為就是說他大家都是避嫌嘛避嫌就會跑到股市不好避嫌之間就跑到那個債券市場所以債券市場就下跌到他的利率就下跌到4%那現在呢債券跟持生利率他有一定的聯動關係總裁我直接提啦就是說從2000年開始美國的美債暴增到兩倍以上達到36.2兆美元"},{"start":242.349,"end":254.331,"text":"這個數字那今年美兆對全世界到期的總共達到9.2兆其中有6.5兆美元全世界擁有美債有6.5兆在6月到期所以對美國來說對於海外債權人來說他當然是希望對他來說到期要贖回錢但對美國來說現在經濟的整整體的狀況他當然不希望馬上要拿出這麼多錢來還這對他來說是一個很大的負擔嘛"},{"start":271.334,"end":274.377,"text":"所以他當然希望到期的人是不是可以繼續的"},{"start":276.603,"end":302.396,"text":"購買他長期的債券再買個十年二十年三十年甚至是最近有傳說再買個一百年有傳出這樣的傳聞出來所以如果是這樣子的狀況的話總裁我要請問就是說你剛才也回答我們的召委就是說我們目前外匯存底總共五千七百七十五億美元那你剛提到說我們有八成是購買債券對不對"},{"start":304.117,"end":312.527,"text":"沒有錯那之前上個禮拜我聽到副總裁回答的是說我目前有92%92%這個數據大概他的這個數據是怎麼來的是原來我們希望他的92%是錯的"},{"start":324.741,"end":352.018,"text":"這個數字是但是這個有一個數字在那邊我覺得他是不是我們一個期望的目標就是說這個數據呢是時常因為匯率的變動的結果呢這個數據呢是會時常會變動的他是匯率變動的美債不過我跟委員報告我跟委員報告就是說第一個他可能是看錯了所以他講錯了第一個第二個呢我剛剛在講就是說我們的美債大概就是說我們的美債大概是八成以上"},{"start":354.309,"end":374.761,"text":"八成多多少那你覺得那個92%跟八成那個是一個規律變動的結果不是一個期望值下來都不是一個期望值你有沒有對於美賽我們應該持有多少期望值你覺得是一個合理的數字這個沒有所謂的期望值沒有那有沒有一個理想的數字"},{"start":376.322,"end":388.45,"text":"那當然啊我們會覺得就是說我們會持有這個債券持有這個債券我們都會評估的總裁你的專業評估我沒有要跟你吵架我只是問您專業的問題就是說您認為理想的美債的數字是多少你覺得是一個理想的數字我想理想的美債的到目前為止我們認為我們八成以上是理想的"},{"start":406.202,"end":431.891,"text":"八成以上都是理想那我會不會持續增加美債的比例那所以我就說我們就要隨時要評估啊我也沒有所以我就說你說理想的水準是在哪裡八成以上都是理想的我現在跟委員報告就是說我現在目前的評估我說我八成以上是理想的理想的好那總的來講呢我就說我沒有反對"},{"start":434.412,"end":438.638,"text":"反駁你喔 我也支持你喔那我再請問一句話就是說接下來我們會不會增加美債來當作跟美國繼續談判的籌碼之一"},{"start":446.27,"end":470.95,"text":"我想就是說我們只能夠這麼說如果說我們要跟他談判要說我們說美國的逆差那你必須要用公債要發行公債來融資但是我們中央銀行我們台灣是對你的公債我們是長期持有對你的融資成本是有降低的貢獻"},{"start":472.782,"end":478.583,"text":"而且是你的赤字的融資呢是很穩定的 為什麼因為我們不會就說馬來拋 馬來再拋我們不會 我們hold to maturity當然 但是美國的經濟美國整體的經濟狀況當然也會影響我們持有美債我們到底那個變動到底結果是什麼所以它是不動的嘛那我要請問總裁一件事情就是說我們目前這兩三年今年有沒有美債到期的有多少"},{"start":500.949,"end":503.451,"text":"這個我們在評估誰可以告訴你數字待會私下我給你"},{"start":508.966,"end":529.445,"text":"這七年到期的有沒有數字 有沒有應該有啊應該有 那這三年馬上到期總裁我都不反對因為你接下來跟美國談判他可以變成籌碼我們未來到期的或明年到期甚至後年到期的我們可以再跟美國談判說好那我再跟你買十年二十年三十年這都是我們可以談的目標這個委員的這個建議是相當好的啦"},{"start":532.128,"end":536.972,"text":"這都是談判的工具好不好你們專業來決定但是對我們來說我就會想知道說我今年到底美債到期的數字有多少明年有多少後年有多少至少在川普這個任期裡面我們手邊握有可以有哪些工具是談判的籌碼我們各部會現在都在盤整談判的籌碼這個是我現在要知道"},{"start":559.471,"end":561.076,"text":"我覺得委員的建議是相當好的"},{"start":564.541,"end":591.454,"text":"部長我沒有介意我只是想知道不是我的建議照理說你手邊應該有這些談判的工具不然你們在美談判的小組各部會到底在統整哪些東西那到底我們有沒有受到就是說其實川普都在對全世界施加壓力怎麼樣讓他經濟景氣好無論是增加關稅也好或者美債要你們多買一些也好或者債券再延長日期也好其實這都是他的籌碼我想你比我更清楚了解"},{"start":591.874,"end":613.419,"text":"那到底這件事情譬如說把美債延長十年二十年三十年我們從來沒有想過這件事情嗎或者美方有沒有給任何的壓力到目前為止沒有你沒有收到完全沒有你也完全沒有想到說債券可以再跟他購買十年二十年這也是我們談判籌碼之一所以我說說委員的一個建議是很好的啦"},{"start":613.959,"end":642.764,"text":"好部長那我再請問你美中最後美中關稅談判的結果當然他說跟習近平是好朋友目前增加到125那也希望跟習近平談但是美中對於關稅談判的結果其實是影響全球的那你對於這件事情你的看法你覺得對台灣的影響會是什麼如果他談得好如果有共識因為台灣是中小企業我們都是全球貿易的其中的一環"},{"start":643.664,"end":659.834,"text":"我想關稅戰特別是在兩強的互相報復不只是說是只有兩強還有其他的包括歐盟這個對全球的經濟都不好都不好那你覺得他們兩個邊會不會談得好有沒有機會談得好最好是能夠談"},{"start":672.827,"end":672.847,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時43分）我是不是可以邀請央行的楊總裁？"],["主席：楊總裁，請。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁早。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：一大早清晨五點多起來，看到新的新聞，你昨天晚上……你是什麼時候知道今天早上川普調整了暫緩對等關稅，目前是調為10%。"],["楊總裁金龍：我也是今天早上才知道的。"],["李委員彥秀：今天早上才知道？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：原來每天的狀況隨時都在改變，這也就是長期以來我對於對美關稅的談判、匯率的談判，很多我在委員會其實都一直不斷地，無論是提醒金管會、財政部還有央行的地方。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，今天早上川普說，他早上才決定暫緩對等關稅最主要的理由，CNN也提出背後最主要的原因，有可能是近期美債巨幅震盪的結果嚇壞了財政部。包括從2月初開始，無論是中國大陸或日本，不斷地提出美債到期之後要贖回，這都是其中的因素之一。你認不認同？你覺得這個可能性高不高？也就是說CNN提出川普暫緩關稅，給予90天……當然對大陸，要課達125%的關稅，還持續地延長，你覺得這背後跟美債最近這段時間不斷地巨幅震盪，這個理由合不合理？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得只是理由之一，我個人判斷……"],["李委員彥秀：它是理由之一，它不是最主要的理由？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得，最重要的還是它股市的一個……"],["李委員彥秀：只有股市嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我就說……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，全世界各國擁有美債的人，如果近期不斷地拋售美債，大家都知道也認為美債過去長期是全世界資金的避風港，它是穩定的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是它近期變成是大怒神，到期了可能被很多國家要求贖回，或者是大量地拋售。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：這個對於美國金融體系的影響非常大，我想你比我都還專業，比我都還要懂。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講的沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我才說，它主要的理由會不會是……因為CNN已經提出來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：也不是CNN講的就對。"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我只是說它是其中之一，我也沒說它絕對就是這個，但是有一點很重要就是，美國希望……應該是川普希望Fed降息，他希望它降息，最主要的目的是希望它的10年期公債能夠降下來，因為影響美國經濟最主要的就是它長期債券的殖利率。"],["李委員彥秀：殖利率下降，也代表它的債市是穩定的，大家對它這個債券是有信心的。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：但也就是說，最近整個大環境的狀況，包括中國大陸、日本打算要贖回，其實也就是對美國的經濟……"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也有引用一個數據，我現在也提供給委員參考，就是說在沒有多久之前、在還沒有這個事件之前，美國的公債是多少？美國10年期的公債是將近5%，即百分之四點九幾，後來因為大家要避險，股市不好，避險資金就跑到債券市場，所以債券市場的利率就下跌到4%，現在……"],["李委員彥秀：債券跟殖利率有一定的連動關係。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯！"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我就直接提了，從2000年開始，美債暴增到兩倍以上，達到36.2兆美元，今年美債對全世界到期的總共達到9.2兆，且全世界擁有的美債中，有6.5兆美金在今年6月到期，所以對美國來說，對海外的債權人來說，當然是希望到期要贖回錢，但對美國來說，就現在經濟整體狀況，當然不希望馬上拿出這麼多錢來還，這對它來說是一個很大的負擔，所以當然希望到期後，這些人是不是可以繼續購買它的長期債券，再買個10年、20年、30年，甚至是最近有傳說再買個100年，有這樣的傳聞出來，所以如果是這樣子的狀況，我要請問總裁的是，你剛才也回答召委說，我們目前外匯存底總共5,775億美元，有八成是購買債券，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：上個禮拜我聽到副總裁的回答是，目前有92%……"],["楊總裁金龍：92%這個數據大概……"],["李委員彥秀：這個數據是怎麼來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛開始有說，他的92%是錯的！"],["李委員彥秀：是錯的？但是有一個數字在那邊，而它是不是我們一個期望的目標值？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我剛才有說，因為匯率變動的結果，這個數據會時常變動。"],["李委員彥秀：美債……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，第一個，他可能是看錯了，所以他講錯了；第二個，我剛剛在講，我們的美債比例大概是八成以上。"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得92%跟八成是一個匯率變動的結果，不是一個期望值？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！對！"],["李委員彥秀：向來都不是一個期望值。那對於美債我們應該持有多少，即期望值是多少，你覺得是一個合理的數字？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個沒有所謂的期望值啦！"],["李委員彥秀：沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：那有沒有一個理想的數字？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們之所以會持有這個債券，表示我們都會評估的，也不會眼睛閉起來，就這樣子來投資。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我沒有要跟你吵架，我只是問您專業的問題，就是您認為理想的美債數字是多少？多少你覺得是一個理想的數字？"],["楊總裁金龍：美債的部分，到目前為止，我們認為八成以上是理想的。"],["李委員彥秀：我們會不會持續增加美債的比例？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說了，我們要隨時要評估啊！你說理想的水準是在哪裡……"],["李委員彥秀：八成以上都是理想的？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，就是我現在、目前的評估，我說八成以上是理想的。"],["李委員彥秀：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我有說要隨時評估！"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我沒有反對你喔！我沒有反駁你喔！我也支持你喔！那再請問你，接下來我們會不會增加美債持有，當作跟美國繼續談判的籌碼之一？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們只能夠這麼說，如果我們要跟它談判，我們可以說針對美國的逆差，你必須要用公債，要發行公債來融資，但是，我們臺灣中央銀行是對你的公債，我們是hold-to-maturity、我們是長期持有，對你的融資成本是有降低的貢獻，而且你的赤字融資是很穩定的，為什麼？因為我們不會買再拋、買再拋，我們不會！我們是hold-to-maturity，這個就是我們對它的貢獻。"],["李委員彥秀：但是美國整體的經濟狀況當然也會影響我們持有美債，包括那個變動到底結果是什麼，所以它是浮動的……"],["楊總裁金龍：是！是！是！"],["李委員彥秀：那我要請問總裁一件事情，目前這兩、三年當中，像今年有沒有美債到期的？有多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們再評估……"],["李委員彥秀：為什麼是再評估？"],["楊總裁金龍：待會私下我再提供給你。"],["李委員彥秀：今年到期的有沒有？相關的數字有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該有啊！"],["李委員彥秀：這3年內馬上到期的……總裁，我都不反對，因為接下來跟美國談判，它可以變成籌碼，包括未來到期的或明年到期，甚至後年到期的，我們在跟美國談判時可以說，好，那我再跟你買10年、20年、30年，這都是我們可以談的目標。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這個建議是相當好的。"],["李委員彥秀：我的意思是，這都是談判的工具，好不好由你們專業來決定。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是對我們來說，我就會想知道今年到期的美債數字有多少、明年有多少、後年有多少，至少在川普這個任期裡面，我們手邊握有、可以有哪些工具是談判的籌碼，我們各部會現在都在盤整談判的籌碼，這個是我現在要知道的，因為我時間剩下不多……"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員的建議是相當好的。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，不是我的建議，照理說，你手邊應該有這些談判的工具，不然你們對美談判小組、各部會到底在統整哪些東西呢？其實川普都在對全世界施加壓力，看看怎麼樣讓它的經濟景氣好，無論是增加關稅也好，或者美債要你們多買一些也好，或者債券再延長日期也好，其實這都是他的籌碼，我想你比我更清楚了解，所以關於這件事情，譬如說，把美債延長10年、20年或30年，我們從來沒有想過這件事情嗎？或者美方有沒有給任何的壓力？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：你沒有收到？完全沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：你也完全沒有想到可以再跟它購買債券10年、20年，這也是我們談判籌碼之一，你都沒有聽過嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說委員的建議是很好的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，總裁，我再請問你，關於美中關稅談判的結果，當然，他說他跟習近平是好朋友，但目前增加到125%，也希望跟習近平談，但是美中關稅談判的結果其實是影響全球的，對於這件事情你的看法為何？即你覺得對臺灣的影響會是什麼？如果談得好、有共識，因為臺灣是中小企業比較多，我們都是全球貿易的其中一環。"],["楊總裁金龍：關於關稅戰，特別是兩強的互相報復，而且不是只有兩強，還有其他包括歐盟什麼的……"],["李委員彥秀：目前有90天的暫停關稅……"],["楊總裁金龍：這對全球的經濟都不好啦！"],["李委員彥秀：都不好，所以你覺得他們兩邊會不會談得好？","有沒有機會談得好？"],["楊總裁金龍：最好能夠談。"],["李委員彥秀：你的預判是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：最好是能夠談啊！"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。鍾佳濱委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160072","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160072","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712a28751e7b82fef65803d2cc4ed6173071a30f584bceeba99b56b5c2703a0a28e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:32:40 - 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譬如說加了那個保證金 把你加保證金然後去替代那這個替代是刑事訴訟法116條之一他依那個第二項 這叫變更處分那如果是變更處分的話 他就必須要下裁定"},{"start":71.84,"end":95.65,"text":"謝謝複密複密我們講到一個完全的本案重點因為這個案子已經判決確定所以我們來討論本案我想不會有干預個案的問題對不對我先講這個免得有人誤會了第二個 複密剛講得非常的正確就是說如果期限已經到了當然沒有問題但是本案我們不管期限是不是已經到了但是法官他有下一個加保兩千萬"},{"start":97.811,"end":106.457,"text":"對 他等於是變更嘛所以這個東西是不是就是應該要以裁定為之並不是期限到 兩個是不一樣的概念"},{"start":107.547,"end":134.062,"text":"我們不針對這個個案我們就是說假如說有一個情形他就是去把它加保然後去不再繼續延長的話那這個依剛剛講的這是刑事訴訟法161-1第二項的變更處變更處分那依刑事訴訟法121條確實他就是應該要下那個好那我們如果說用通案的來看就是如果今天你是變更原來的"},{"start":135.663,"end":156.309,"text":"才決定嘛 就是提高的這個保證金的話其實它是要以一個裁定的方式為止我想這個從通案的角度來看是沒有問題所以其實我們都很清楚啦裁定大概我們依據那個訴訟法的規定其實它就是幾種嘛 用口頭宣示或是筆錄然後或者是說用書面嘛大概主要是這三種嘛"},{"start":157.009,"end":178.209,"text":"對不對 就是刑訴的224條還有50條還有227條嘛我想說226跟227嘛我想這個非常的明確都有規範齁那但是呢像剛剛吳委員他講的非常的正確其實今天重點並不是說略是與否的問題而是說今天是到底這個裁定有沒有生效嘛"},{"start":178.689,"end":197.774,"text":"因為法官雖然說他做的是一個劣勢劣勢裁定也不是說實務上沒有看過啦你很多積壓的處理他就是用劣勢裁定但是積壓的處理他這種劣勢裁定他至少會有一個譬如說當庭宣誓譬如說載名筆錄或者是送達等等這個方式嘛所以今天一定要有這個"},{"start":199.194,"end":216.594,"text":"結束之後才算是生效譬如說以送達來說好了總是送達第一個第一位收受送達者這個才定才會對外發生效力請問複密症我剛剛講的有沒有問題我覺得您是食物專家所以您講的完全正確也是我們現在食物上在做的"},{"start":217.434,"end":243.982,"text":"所以說我想說本件的問題我覺得我們就跳脫所謂的略是與否的這個案其實這跟本案其實重點脫了化這個是化錯所以其實今天這個財令我們從頭到尾發現就是說他並沒有去踐行我們剛剛說的各種方式不管是口頭告知當事人或者是筆錄告那個記載或者是有送達都沒有嘛對不對我想說這個案子有這個問題啦"},{"start":245.902,"end":265.353,"text":"所以即使說就算說今天有一個書面裁定也不會說原本跟正本差了五個多月我想說我沒有看過這樣的裁定書或判決書五個多月是有一點誇張然後第二個就是說我也沒有聽說過請書記官製作原本這件事情不管院檢"},{"start":266.823,"end":279.454,"text":"原本基本上都是法官 檢察官所製作那署議官他是製作正本但是他不可能叫他去直接做原本去做裁定書或判決書吧還是複密您的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":282.851,"end":305.871,"text":"這個個案我無從評論不是不是我不是說個案我現在說通案通案會請依規定就是那個刑事訴訟法相關的那個像五十條五十一五十五這些那個裁判說原本一定是由那個法院製作完然後簽名之後然後交給書記官製作正本對所以我剛剛講的就是這個對這是一個法定程序對不管是"},{"start":307.833,"end":324.025,"text":"原本就是法官或檢察官所製作他不會由書記官來製作所以說之前說什麼書記官沒有製作原本這個其實這個說法是蠻奇怪所以說這個第一個原本正本製作日期差了五個多月這是蠻奇怪的"},{"start":326.327,"end":347.487,"text":"那我們再看一下所以我覺得今天我開頭會講其實就是程序的問題這案子就是程序的問題那我覺得從去年到現在發生了很多事包括比如說高煌案的案子那個檢方那邊有中斷16分鐘的錄音這個程序就不對我不論這些人是否"},{"start":348.388,"end":372.269,"text":"構成犯罪 但程序就不對那譬如說柯文哲的案子偵查大公開啦然後起訴書穿插一些跟構成要件無關的事實啦而且比例非常的高嘛然後讓很多政論民主也可以拿去做文章或是說後來北檢發聲說你明明就是去醫院就訓但是你新聞稿前後兩次說的又不一樣所以其實這段時間"},{"start":373.97,"end":395.972,"text":"會讓我們感覺說那到底司法怎麼了因為我們以前就是覺得說司法人員他應該是他對於自己道德的操守要求是非常非常的高所以到底什麼時候發生連司法人員都帶頭出來去說謊或者是有一些很極少數的司法人員甚至配合的政治人物在那邊左右搖擺所以"},{"start":398.225,"end":418.451,"text":"我比較難過的就是說司法要建立起人民的信任它要花上百年幾十年百年的時間但是你要摧毀它可能幾個案子幾個月就摧毀這是我最不願意見到今天變成這個樣子就像說我昨天在這邊問一個非常簡單的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪"},{"start":419.671,"end":437.025,"text":"結果部長就是講了一堆根本無關的法條或是講公然侮辱跟誹謗其實那個就很奇怪然後陳廷長他也沒有回答我想說其實司法人員應該要有勇氣來去面對"},{"start":438.746,"end":455.72,"text":"任何權貴以及罪犯嘛就像很多人以前說警察官就提著人頭在辦案因為我們得罪的都是社會上面的黑道或者是權貴的人嘛那如果今天你在面對一個這麼簡單ABC的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪你都不好意思講的話那"},{"start":456.64,"end":470.068,"text":"這樣我們對司法我們的信任度會真的會越來越低啦好那再來我想說這一次呢我們針對這個個案我們還發現一個狀況就是電話紀錄跟被抽換的問題從這個地方我們看到電話紀錄的抽換除了它增加了一個不予延長監控設備這個記載"},{"start":484.673,"end":496.48,"text":"他檢查 他法官跟書記官還倒填了印章的日期我想這個司法院會認同這種事嗎這個章顯然是倒填的我想 請問複密"},{"start":498.735,"end":516.645,"text":"這個部分就是依行說法40條就是有關於這個那個公文書製作之後那個修改他事實上是有一定的嚴謹的那個程序那所以這一件我們先不談就是說那個內容的那個真實性與否就是這個程序上已經事實上是已經違反已經有違失了"},{"start":517.705,"end":536.353,"text":"所以說當然你說公文書原來製作有誤然後後面要修正絕對不是不行但是我們要進行一定的程序更不可能發生說你直接抽換而且還把日期一張倒回去概用印章我想這個是非常明顯的錯誤而且法官"},{"start":537.355,"end":549.119,"text":"做這樣的事情其實是很不得理這就是在等於是欺騙了嘛等於是對外就是欺騙嘛你在3月14號月券的版本都還出現舊的"},{"start":551.035,"end":564.288,"text":"的那個電話紀錄單上面有舊的日期章結果你在3月20號月卷的時候它的版本變成另外一個版本那個印章再怎麼樣都是稻田回去蓋的你等於是在114年的3月20號"},{"start":567.992,"end":595.14,"text":"倒田回去蓋113年10月14號的印章你等於是倒田回去 這很不應該啦所以麻煩治療院這邊也要詳細的了解到底狀況是怎麼樣那再來我想請教一下就你們審理的期間呢 就是需不需要確確那個拒保這個處分呢 有沒有送達檢察官"},{"start":597.232,"end":613.909,"text":"這個東西你們到底有沒有控管因為檢察官總是收到他才能抗告嘛現在這一件的話他從頭到尾什麼都沒有那到底院方目前是怎麼樣控管這個動作就法官如果有裁定那他送達與否這個有沒有人在控管這件事情"},{"start":618.774,"end":620.475,"text":"有本職在記載是不是"},{"start":643.222,"end":666.223,"text":"有本職在記載這些東西嗎不然你會不會有漏送啊或等等的狀況發生都會有案件記錄就是有控管就對了就是個案裡頭在電腦裡頭他都會有一個塵埃那更可以去了解說本案根本沒有裁定如果像您說的只要有裁定我們就會追蹤他有沒有送達那如果說照這樣看的話本案"},{"start":666.843,"end":684.354,"text":"就是沒有裁定啊如果有裁定你們會追蹤後面有沒有送達但本案從頭到尾都沒有送達過所以回過頭來看根本就是沒有裁定我想沒有裁定是一個沒有做出裁定書對我想這是一個事實啊您懂我的意思嗎您說有裁定你們就會追蹤有沒有送達"},{"start":685.214,"end":704.144,"text":"那這個本案自始至終都檢察官都沒有收到送達過那是不是根本就沒有裁定 嚴謹的講他們有做成這個合一體有做成的一個決定可是是把它寫在那個審理單上有這樣一個決定那只是這樣一個決定的話我們廣義也把它叫裁定那只是說他完全沒有做成那個裁定書去送達所以這個部分就是你們控管不到的對不對"},{"start":710.356,"end":732.355,"text":"因為他根本 他連寫都沒寫他就是沒有做成正式的那個裁定書啊 對好吧 那沒關係啦但是不管如何 我剛剛最一開始我已經提到裁定有三種那三種模式嘛 看起來都不是應該不會說記載在審理單就叫做裁定吧可以這麼說嗎可以說記載在審理單就是有裁定嗎"},{"start":734.2,"end":761.941,"text":"這個個案的決定因為可能還會有就是救濟跟那個的問題我想我們就不再回答那我想不管怎麼樣這些案子我們這樣看起來就是最近的譬如說朱國榮的案子還有中文字林秉文等等的這些案子其實就讓人民有個感覺就是好像權貴犯案都可以逍遙法外那我今天為什麼犯案會被押那就是因為我不是權貴所以我就有逃亡之虞所以"},{"start":763.002,"end":780.104,"text":"讓人民會感覺到到底法院本來應該所有的人在司法面前都是一視同仁那是不是在面對權貴的時候就完全不太一樣所以我想說在這次的案子裡面還是要麻煩司法院法務部這邊能夠想出一個對策不能讓這種狀況再發生"},{"start":783.39,"end":806.876,"text":"那更何況 其實我們再參考一下中文字的案子前面那個紀法官 他多次對於這個被告他所提出來申請他希望出國等等的 他都拒絕那他其實他的裁定 我覺得我看完之後 我覺得他之前的裁定幾乎都可以當作教科書他寫得非常的完整 譬如說他有提到說"},{"start":808.476,"end":827.27,"text":"罪名非清然後原審判決很重還有他侵害的這些投資人的權益也很大還有他獲利非常的高等等的再加上這個人之前他有多次譬如說他有用假的資料想要出國或者是說他曾經也被通緝過"},{"start":829.012,"end":844.946,"text":"這些等等的狀況 其實他都寫在他原本的裁定裡面他其實後面的法官很容易就可以依照前面紀法官他所調查的資料就知道這個人他有非常大的逃亡可能性那為什麼還會在之前有一次是律師出來"},{"start":847.808,"end":876.279,"text":"而說當作保證人那這個被告就可以出國去香港這個也很奇怪因為我以前審理案子的話如果這個被告他有這麼多的狀況我根本不敢讓他出境啊甚至他曾經被通緝過都會讓我不敢給他交保或者是不敢讓他出國的最主要原因那這個被告呢他獲利這麼高的情況下他之前有很多不良的對於這個"},{"start":877.839,"end":902.924,"text":"不按期到庭等等他有不良的紀錄那為什麼還會讓他讓他後來還可以出國去開會還可以這個卸除他的電子監控設備這個都是我們覺得很難以想像的啦就以我自己的實務經驗我覺得這還難以想像好吧那但是呢法官總是獨立審判嘛那我就不多說好那我再請教司法院高院現在有幾個金融專庭"},{"start":905.693,"end":908.859,"text":"四庭請問一下這次這兩位大家認為有問題的法官他們還在金融專庭嗎"},{"start":916.161,"end":934.31,"text":"那個目前還在那但是應該是會即將要做那個調整因為那個庭長他現在已經那個免件庭長了對是好那我們這都尊重司法院的決定好那我在這邊就跟那個複密這邊就是說一下"},{"start":935.95,"end":952.183,"text":"這個金融犯的防逃標準可能要麻煩司法院再訓練就是說我們對於法官我們不能以一句說司法獨立法官獨立審判所以我不能跟法官講什麼這個沒有錯這是對於個案嘛但是對於通案的教育訓練司法院真的還是要"},{"start":953.224,"end":980.984,"text":"對於這個金融庭的法官要跟他們再教育因為獲利高他本身他就有足夠的經濟能力在國外生活他就如果那個量刑的刑度又高他就有非常大在國外逃亡到國外生活的動機所以這部分要麻煩您就像我禮拜一的時候禮拜一我跟這個次長跟黃次長我們去那個士林地檢的二樓就是那個"},{"start":982.565,"end":1006.788,"text":"科控中心我們去考察的時候其實我當時也有說希望司法院能夠提出這些通緝犯前三大逃跑的理由還有出境的前三大案有還有棄保的前三大案有還有人數各是什麼那天我有請司法院要準備這些資料其實我準備這個我並不是說我要拿來做什麼用而是我希望這個資料完整之後給基層法官去做參考"},{"start":1007.449,"end":1030.269,"text":"有這些狀況前三大理由就是他們最有可能跑的我想這個我們就是要替人民做一件事情就是不能讓人民覺得權貴好像都有特權犯罪獲得很大利益之後就跑光光了那我們也希望說不要讓法官就是一直在象牙塔裡面沒有啦 就很多人民都覺得法官檢察官都活在象牙塔裡面"},{"start":1035.615,"end":1049.85,"text":"法官論壇其實有人就抱怨很多法官論壇就提到這次他講的這個怎麼會是這個劣勢裁定的這個說法其實就是被法官在法官論壇上面已經"},{"start":1050.791,"end":1072.829,"text":"就是攻擊蠻多的那這個其實我剛剛也都有講啦我個人從頭到尾都不認為這個是劣勢裁定劣勢裁定有但是在我們實務來說幾乎都出現在羈押因為羈押常常是很晚嘛很晚的晚上所以他可能有時候會用劣勢裁定但是不管劣勢裁定正式裁定等等的一定會有送達的動作這個我想大家都沒有什麼爭議啦那"},{"start":1075.811,"end":1096.743,"text":"所以就是最近有些法官在法官論壇上面其實就是有在抱怨那檢察官論壇裡面也是很多人在那邊講說最近北檢等等的做法其實讓很多非北檢或甚至北檢裡面的檢察官也都有不滿所以為什麼司法會走到今天連司法官 法官檢察官自己都覺得"},{"start":1098.444,"end":1121.866,"text":"這些同事做法不可思議那就請大家要注意一下最後30秒我想說其實林三田教授跟陳定南這兩個是我一個是在學生時代對我最大啟發另外一個是在我出來當檢察官第一年的部長其實他們都告訴我們心中"},{"start":1123.666,"end":1137.092,"text":"黑白是非要放在前面立場放在後面我一直都這一輩子我都還是一直堅持堅守的這個信念那林三田的這本刑法通論啊他曾經對外說過說這通論的"},{"start":1140.423,"end":1168.41,"text":"書外皮是他設計的我想兩位一定都念過啦他說為什麼他設計這樣的外皮他的用色只有黑跟白因為他生前的時候講說他心中他對於法律以及對於這個社會運用法律的想法就是黑白而不是立場所以我很希望說我們全國的司法人員一定要記得這件事情像陳立南也是跟我們講啊心中是是非對錯而不是立場"},{"start":1170.342,"end":1193.994,"text":"我出來第一年的時候在當一個基層的最菜鳥的檢察官的時候他就親口這樣跟我講然後學生時代的03年他也是這樣跟我們講結果到今天我們看到司法人員也開始學著騙人開始學著發一些前後不一致的新聞稿我想說這都是我們自己要檢討的啦那這部分我希望司法院以及法務部能夠"},{"start":1195.234,"end":1214.034,"text":"很重視這個事情好不好就是說不管如何我們還是希望司法人員要當作人民最值得信賴的一群人絕對要記得法律跟制度一定要長治久安不能配合政客或執政者在搖擺好 謝謝兩位謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":589,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時32分）麻煩法務部次長，還有司法院副秘書長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：你好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：早。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝兩位，兩位早安。我現在就直接提，因為我們今天的主題是蠻明確與聚焦的，所以我的問題很簡單。我先請教一下司法院，對於被告的電子監控不予延長的決定是不是需要下裁定？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為電子監控是要下期間的，理論上，如果期間已經到了之後，不繼續的話是不用下，但是我現在講另一個情形，就是本來要下，為什麼不下了？所以通常有些就會用其他的方式，譬如加保證金去替代，這個替代是依刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二第二項，叫變更處分，如果是變更處分，就必須要下裁定。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝副秘。副秘完全講到一個本案的重點，因為這個案子已經判決確定，所以我們來討論本案，我想不會有干預個案的問題，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我先講這個，免得有人誤會。第二個、副秘剛講得非常正確，就是如果期限已經到了，當然沒有問題，我們不管本案期限是不是已經到了，但是法官有下一個加保2,000萬……"],["王副秘書長梅英：然後替代。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，等於是變更，所以這個東西是不是就應該要以裁定為之，並不是期限到？兩個是不一樣的概念。"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們不針對這個個案，假如有一個情形，就是加保不再繼續延長，依剛剛講的，這是刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二第二項的變更處分，依刑事訴訟法一百二十一條，確實就應該要下裁定。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果用通案來看，今天是變更原來的決定提高保證金的話，要有一個裁定的方式為之，這個從通案的角度來看沒有問題。其實我們都很清楚，依據訴訟法的規定，裁定就是幾種，包括用口頭宣示或是筆錄，或者是用書面，大概主要是這三種，對不對？就是刑訴第二百二十四條、第五十條，還有第二百二十六條、第二百二十七條，都有非常明確的規範。但是剛剛吳委員講得非常正確，今天的重點並不是略式與否的問題，而是到底這個裁定有沒有生效。雖然法官做的是一個略式，略式裁定也不是實務上沒有看過，很多羈押的處理就是用略式裁定，但是羈押的處理透過這種略式裁定，至少會有譬如當庭宣示、載明筆錄或者是送達等等方式，所以一定要有這些，結束之後才算生效。譬如以送達來說好了，總是送達第一位收受送達者，這個裁定才會對外發生效力。請問副秘，我剛剛講的有沒有問題？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，您是實務專家，所以您講得完全正確，也是我們現在實務上在做的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想本件的問題就跳脫所謂略式與否這個概念，本案重點如果畫這個是畫錯。我們從頭到尾發現這個裁定並沒有踐行我們剛剛說的各種方式，不管是口頭告知當事人或者是筆錄記載，又或者是送達，都沒有，對不對？我想這個案子有這個問題。就算今天有一個書面裁定，也不會原本跟正本差了五個多月，我沒有看過這樣的裁定書或判決書，五個多月有一點誇張。第二個、我也沒有聽說過請書記官制作原本這件事情，不管院、檢，原本基本上都是法官、檢察官所制作，書記官是制作正本，但是不可能叫他直接做裁定書或判決書的原本，副秘的想法怎麼樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個個案我無從評論。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是！我不是說個案，我現在說通案，通案會請……"],["王副秘書長梅英：依刑事訴訟法相關的規定，像第五十條、第五十一條、第五十二條，裁判書原本一定是由法官制作完、簽名之後，交給書記官制作正本，所以這是一個法定程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我剛剛講的就是這個。原本就是法官或檢察官所制作，不會由書記官制作，所以之前說書記官沒有制作原本，這個說法是蠻奇怪的。第一個、原本跟正本制作日期差了五個多月，這是蠻奇怪的。今天我開頭也講這個案子就是程序的問題，從去年到現在發生了很多事，包括高虹安的案子，檢方那邊的錄音有中斷16分鐘，這個程序就不對。我不論這些人是否構成犯罪，但程序就不對！譬如柯文哲的案子偵查大公開，然後起訴書摻雜一些跟構成要件無關的事實而且比例非常高，讓很多政論名嘴可以拿去做文章，或是後來發生北檢明明就是去醫院就訊，但是前後兩次新聞稿說的又不一樣。這段時間會讓我們覺得到底司法怎麼了？因為我們以前覺得司法人員應該對於自己道德操守的要求非常、非常高，到底什麼時候開始發生連司法人員都帶頭說謊，或者是有一些很極少數的司法人員，甚至會配合政治人物在那邊左右搖擺？我比較難過的就是，司法要建立起人民的信任要花上百年、幾十年的時間，但是要摧毀它，可能幾個案子、幾個月就能摧毀，我最不願意見到變成今天這個樣子。就像我昨天在這邊問一個非常簡單的問題──我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪？結果部長就講了一堆根本無關的法條或是講公然侮辱跟誹謗，那就很奇怪，然後程廳長也沒有回答。其實司法人員應該要有勇氣去面對任何權貴以及罪犯，就像很多人以前說檢察官都提著人頭在辦案，因為我們得罪的都是社會上面的黑道或是權貴人士，如果今天你在面對一個這麼簡單ABC的問題，我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪，你都不好意思講的話，這樣我們對司法的信任度真的會越來越低。","再來，針對這個個案，我們還發現一個狀況，就是電話紀錄被抽換的問題，除了增加一個「不予延長科技設備監控」記載，法官和書記官還倒填了印章的日期，司法院會認同這種事嗎？這個章顯然是倒填的，我想請問副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分依刑事訴訟法第四十條規定，有關於公文書制作之後的修改，事實上是有一定很嚴謹的程序，所以這一件我們先不談內容的真實性與否，程序事實上是已經有違失了。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然，如果公文書原來制作有誤，後面要修正，絕對不是不行，但是我們要踐行一定的程序，更不可能發生直接抽換，而且還把日期章倒回去蓋用印章，我想這個是非常明顯的錯誤，而且法官做這樣的事情是很不得體的，這等於就是欺騙了，等於對外欺騙。在3月14日閱卷的版本都還出現舊的電話紀錄單，上面有舊的日期章，結果你在3月20日閱卷的時候，它的版本變成另外一個版本，那個印章再怎麼講都是倒填回去蓋的，等於是在114年3月20日倒填回去蓋113年10月14日的印章，等於是倒填回去，這很不應該，所以麻煩司法院這邊也要詳細瞭解到底狀況是怎麼樣。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，我想請教一下，你們審理的期間需不需要確認具保處分有沒有送達檢察官？這個東西你們到底有沒有控管？因為檢察官總是要收到才能抗告，現在這一件從頭到尾什麼都沒有，到底院方目前是怎麼樣控管這個動作？法官如果有裁定，對於送達與否，有沒有人在控管這件事情？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個其實有相關的規定，司法院還有高院都有訂定相關的SOP，像辦理刑事審判紀錄業務注意事項，法官要作出那個裁定原本，書記官在收受之後有一定的程序，然後之後的送達，這些事項都有相關規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：有本子在記載，是不是？有本子在記載這些東西嗎？不然會不會有漏送等等的狀況發生？"],["王副秘書長梅英：都會有案件紀錄。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是有控管就對了？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，就是個案在電腦裡頭都會有一個成案，都會有一個……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那更可以瞭解本案根本沒有裁定，如果像你說的，只要有裁定，你們就會追蹤它有沒有送達，照這樣看的話，本案就是沒有裁定，如果有裁定，你們會追蹤後面有沒有送達，但本案從頭到尾都沒有送達過，所以回過頭來看，根本就是沒有裁定，我想沒有裁定是一個……"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是沒有作出裁定書。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我想這是一個事實，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你說有裁定你們就會追蹤有沒有送達，本案自始至終檢察官都沒有收到送達過，是不是根本就沒有裁定？"],["王副秘書長梅英：嚴謹地講，這個合議庭有作成一個決定，可是是把它寫在審理單上，有這樣一個決定，我們廣義也把它叫作裁定，只是他完全沒有作成裁定書去送達。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這個部分就是你們控管不到的，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為他根本連寫都沒寫，他沒有作成正式的裁定書。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！沒關係，不管如何，我最一開始已經提到裁定有三種模式，但是看起來都不是，應該不會記載在審理單就叫作裁定吧？可以這麼說嗎？可以說記載在審理單就是有裁定嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為這個個案的決定可能還會有救濟問題，我想我們就不再回答。"],["吳委員宗憲：不管怎麼樣，我們這樣看起來，最近的這些案子譬如朱國榮、鍾文智、林秉文等等，其實都讓人民有個感覺，好像權貴犯案都可以逍遙法外，我今天為什麼犯案會被押，就是因為我不是權貴，所以我就有逃亡之虞。讓人民的感覺是本來應該所有的人在司法面前都是一視同仁，是不是在面對權貴的時候就完全不太一樣？所以在這一次的案子裡面，還是要麻煩司法院、法務部能夠想出一個對策，不能讓這種狀況再發生。更何況，我們再參考一下鍾文智的案子，前面的紀法官多次對於被告所提出來的聲請、希望出國等等，他都拒絕，其實他的裁定我看完之後，我覺得他之前的裁定幾乎都可以當作教科書，他寫得非常的完整，譬如他有提到罪名非輕，原審判決很重，還有他侵害的這些投資人的權益也很大、獲利非常高等等，再加上這個人之前有多次，譬如他有用假資料想要出國，或者是他曾經也被通緝過等等這些狀況，他都寫在他原本的裁定裡面，其實後面的法官很容易就可以依照前面紀法官所調查的資料，知道這個人有非常大的逃亡可能性，為什麼還會在之前有一次是律師出來當作保證人，這個被告就可以出國去香港，這個也很奇怪。","因為我以前審理案子的時候，如果這個被告有這麼多的狀況，我根本不敢讓他出境，甚至他曾經被通緝過，都會讓我不敢讓他交保，或者是不敢讓他出國的最主要原因。這個被告在獲利這麼高的情況下，之前又有很多不良的紀錄，如不按期到庭等等，為什麼後來還會讓他可以出國去開會，還可以卸除他的電子監控設備？這個都是我們覺得很難以想像的，以我自己的實務經驗，我覺得這很難以想像，但是法官總是獨立審判，我就不多說了。","再請教司法院，高院現在有幾個金融專庭？"],["王副秘書長梅英：四庭。"],["吳委員宗憲：請問這一次這兩位大家認為有問題的法官，他們還在金融專庭嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前還在，但是應該會即將做調整，因為那個庭長現在已經免兼庭長。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我們都尊重司法院的決定。我在這邊要跟副秘說一下，金融犯的防逃標準可能要麻煩司法院再訓練，對於法官，我們不能以一句司法獨立、法官獨立審判，所以我們就不能跟法官講什麼，這個沒有錯，這是對於個案。但是對於通案的教育訓練，司法院對金融庭的法官還是要再教育，因為獲利高，他本身就有足夠的經濟能力在國外生活，如果量刑的刑度又高，他就有非常大逃亡到國外生活的動機，所以這部分要麻煩你。就像我禮拜一跟黃次長去士林地檢2樓科控中心考察的時候，其實我當時也有說希望司法院能夠提出這些通緝犯前三大逃跑的理由，還有出境的前三大案由、棄保的前三大案由以及人數各是什麼，那天我有請司法院要準備這些資料。其實準備這個並不是我要拿來做什麼用，而是我希望這個資料完整之後可以給基層法官作為參考，有這些狀況就是他們最有可能跑的前三大理由，我想我們要替人民做一件事情，就是不能讓人民覺得權貴好像都有特權，犯罪獲得很大利益之後就跑光光了，我們也不希望很多人民都覺得法官、檢察官都活在象牙塔裡面。再來，因為時間的關係，我想最後再談一個。對法官論壇有人抱怨很多，像這一次提到的略式裁定的說法，在法官論壇上面被法官攻擊滿多的；這個我剛剛也都有講了，我個人從頭到尾都不認為這個是略式裁定，略式裁定有，但是在實務上來說，幾乎都出現在羈押，因為羈押常常是很晚的晚上，所以可能有時候會用略式裁定，但不管是略式裁定、正式裁定等等，一定會有送達的動作，我想這個大家都沒有什麼爭議。所以，最近有些法官在法官論壇上面，其實就有在抱怨，而檢察官論壇裡面也是很多人在那邊講最近北檢等等的作法，讓很多非北檢或甚至北檢裡面的檢察官也都有不滿，為什麼司法會走到今天連司法官、法官、檢察官自己對這些同事的作法都覺得不可思議，就請大家要注意一下。","最後30秒，我想說林山田教授跟陳定南這兩位，一位是在我學生時代對我最大啟發的人，另外一位是我出來當檢察官第一年的部長，其實他們都告訴我們心中黑白是非要放在前面，立場放在後面，這一輩子我都還是一直堅持、堅守這個信念。林山田的這一本刑法通論，他曾經對外說過，這本通論的書外皮是他設計的，我想兩位一定都念過啦！他說為什麼他設計這樣的外皮？用色只有黑跟白，因為他生前的時候講，他心中對於法律以及對於社會運用法律的想法就是黑白，而不是立場，所以我也很希望我們全國的司法人員一定要記得這件事情，就像陳定南也是跟我們講，心中有是非對錯，而不是立場。我出來第一年的時候，在當一個基層、最菜鳥的檢察官時，他就親口這樣跟我講；我學生時代的林山田，他也是這樣跟我們講，結果到今天，我們看到司法人員也開始學著騙人、開始學著發一些前後不一致的新聞稿，我想這都是我們自己要檢討的，這部分我希望司法院以及法務部能夠很重視這個事情，好不好？不管如何，我們還是希望司法人員要當人民最值得信賴的一群人，絕對要記得法律跟制度一定要長治久安，不能配合政客或執政者在搖擺。好，謝謝兩位。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：我們先作會議議程宣告：稍後在翁曉玲委員詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。","現在我們請翁曉玲委員進行發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160071","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160071","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712fe5992cf72ce47fff9600c3f6b437ac21a30f584bceeba99c98565735012e9165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:39:51 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is a great time to buy所以我們以前都只聽過內線交易那我們第一次看到這個外線交易所以我們今天看到台股能夠翻紅我們都覺得非常的開心但這個情況能夠實施多久能夠維持多久這都端看我們外交部以及經濟部的努力"},{"start":124.178,"end":138.237,"text":"那能夠延遲90天讓國家暫時脫離險境但是我們也注意到其實中國被美國苛徵125%的關稅那他們今天的股票仍然是上漲的那這點我們也應該要去注意到"},{"start":139.138,"end":161.768,"text":"特別想要問經濟部就是川普他們暫緩及日期各國的32%的這個像我們的32%的稅率剩下各國適用的10%的稅率事實上比原本我們跟美國之間課的稅率還是比較高的那呢仍然會對產業造成影響在這方面我們是否仍然會持續對產業進行協助甚至補貼"},{"start":165.169,"end":188.498,"text":"是 谢谢委员的指教其实我们政府有提出这个因应美国关税的产业资源的方案从不同的面向那刚才行政院院会已经通过这个产业资源方案措施不变而且要请院长有才事要请相关的部会要尽速的研拟措施我们在4月14号会对外正式的公布"},{"start":188.638,"end":204.045,"text":"那請問一下先前行政院所提出的880億的支持出口供應鏈的方案仍然是以880億的規模持續進行嗎沒錯是的那也會提出特別條例嗎會的好的那呢因為現在的這個關稅那"},{"start":207.486,"end":218.798,"text":"除了之前我們講到的這個基本關稅之外先前美國有針對全球產業的特定的部分關稅例如像是鋼鐵業等等的那請問這也包含在這個90天的暫停範圍之內嗎"},{"start":223.763,"end":242.388,"text":"沒有鋼鐵業還是維持所以那我想要請問一下除了這個基本關稅的10%以及加徵的32%之外還有哪一些部分是它是特定的產業仍然有比較高的關稅有哪一些產業是如此的"},{"start":242.848,"end":267.118,"text":"是 百分之三十二這個已經我們了解改為百分之十一就是延長延長對 除了這個以外呢有鋼鋁的關稅是百分之二十五但是跟委員報告我們先前呢就蘇美的話就是百分之二十五所以現在變成跟其他的國家齊頭的都是百分之二十五那還有其他的產業"},{"start":268.839,"end":292.71,"text":"對,還有汽車產業,汽車產業還是維持25%的關稅汽車產業維持25%的關稅還有就是美國對我們的課徵嘛,對不對?就是基本的MFN的稅率那原本美國對我們的課徵的稅率是多少?看各個產業不同,資通訊產業化是零關稅沒有,我剛剛問的是汽車的部分汽車大概,看不同的零件大概20%"},{"start":296.12,"end":311.314,"text":"20左右25所以25的部分也是沒有變動的嗎對沒有變動的那有具體變動的還有哪一些你們可以幫我們大家就是民眾很想知道就是說呢我們所謂的這一些"},{"start":312.996,"end":323.505,"text":"針對全球產業的部分關稅不包含在百分之三十二裡面的有沒有其他的產業是有高於原本的關稅這個部分就是鋼鋁還有汽車產業因為他們本來就都一樣嘛一樣的我們就不談了那有高於的汽車產業"},{"start":331.652,"end":344.862,"text":"汽車產業您剛剛說25%現在也是25%的話那是沒有高於啊所以是不是請補充一下相關的資訊讓我們國人知道有增加的部分大概是哪一些報告委員川普總統總統曾經有說過可能會對藥品半導體"},{"start":349.966,"end":370.9,"text":"還有同志品可能會加增關稅到目前為止並沒有這樣的訊息所以可能會有這幾樣那未來呢即便是在32%的關稅延長的狀態之下仍然會另外剋稅的可能性就是你們不排除的嘛那我們現在呢雙方已經都在交換資訊就請那個外交部來回答"},{"start":371.48,"end":381.017,"text":"那呢台灣不只是關稅談判還有對美的投資採購等等的我想要問一下我們這次的談判小組的成員有哪一些人來組成"},{"start":382.54,"end":403.49,"text":"那麼現在據我們已經公布的就是由這個行政院副院長姓立軍副院長領隊那其他的這個成員我想都可以想像得到那外交部在裡面是擔任什麼樣的一個角色我們主要是說我們掌握相關的這個管道那麼我們同時每處也隨時會把相關的訊息能夠這個傳遞回來台灣"},{"start":406.852,"end":410.576,"text":"我們對美關稅談判的首席代表是鄭麗君女士嗎這一次特別的是由這個政院宣布是由這個鄭副院長來在領銜的部分那請問他已經出訪或是聯繫美方了嗎"},{"start":428.915,"end":439.891,"text":"這我們不便透露因為就是說包括這個第一個說昨天的他人還在國內嘛對不對新聞報導是如此寫的如果不對的話可以告訴我們讓我們能夠刊物"},{"start":440.935,"end":458.036,"text":"報告委員這個我們沒有訊息你們沒有訊息那我剛講的是新聞上的訊息那你們可以不回應這個沒有問題那所以如果因為我們質疑的地方是如果鄭麗君副院長還在國內的話那他到底要怎麼樣去談判"},{"start":459.918,"end":471.749,"text":"那他有沒有打電話給川普的官員能夠來通電話因為我們看到的事情是 其實呢 不管是齁 我們可以看這些人他們包含是美國的財長 這個我們看到好幾位的高層都已經到這個華府喔去面對面的協商或者是打了這個相關的電話去喔"},{"start":482.139,"end":498.376,"text":"那我另外再問一個問題就是去年川普政府其實他在選舉的期間就已經提出過他要利用關稅這件事情來進行對全世界的一些可能他們的貿易的策略我們可以看一下"},{"start":500.157,"end":524.467,"text":"當時呢我們的這個外交部的政務次長吳志忠次長那他呢就說這個川普聲稱台灣偷走美國晶片的生意是選舉語言那外交部對於過去次長這樣的說法那是不是會覺得因此我們晚了很多的時間來做準備我們當初真的把它當成了選舉語言嗎"},{"start":526.212,"end":548.277,"text":"報告委員這個選舉委員當然是一部分那另外一個部分就是說其實可能一部分的這個美國的政治領袖對於台灣晶片的這個優勢有一些這個不完整的一個掌握所以我們也盡力的跟他們溝通台灣做到這樣的一個程度並不是所謂的偷走的問題而是我們在技術上面精益修行"},{"start":548.857,"end":570.034,"text":"但是因為川普已經不是第一次說是偷走的問題那我們請主席再給我一點時間最後一個問題就是美國的商務部長剛剛大家都有提到了那他在4月3號的時候接受那個訪問的時候表示說川普將會深入研究這些內容也就是剛剛我們經濟部談到的包含半導體等等"},{"start":571.175,"end":599.661,"text":"措施会陆续提出那要目的是要把所有来自台湾的半导体业产业移植回美国哎经济部如果有需要的话可以来回应这个题目好那呃这个关于CNBC的逐字稿里面写的很清楚Donald Trump is going to deeply study thoseand those are going to come lateron how to assure from Taiwan all thatmanufacturing"},{"start":599.961,"end":623.344,"text":"所以它基本上所有的半導體產業它裡面寫的是all不是have或是some of所以我想要請問就針對美國商務部長的這個訪問裡面他提到的措施是會陸續把台灣的半導體產業全部的移到美國這個部分經濟部的看法目前是如何評估狀況是如何"},{"start":624.605,"end":640.759,"text":"是,其实我们的业者到海外的布局最主要的考量是要客户的需求,因为可以就近的接近客户,例如像美国有很多的大厂,他需要因为要发展AI,要发展人工运算,所以都会"},{"start":641.039,"end":662.334,"text":"如果是我們主動去的話當然沒有問題但如果是像這樣子這個說法是美國商務部長要求就以美方的角度要求半導體要來到美國因為就像川普說的他一直強調他講了至少三次以上說台灣偷走了美國的晶片跟這個半導體"},{"start":663.795,"end":692.75,"text":"這句話我想我之前也問過林家中部長他也不同意甚至我問了一些美方的友人他們也不是這麼的同意但是呢現在川普他上任之後他以及他的相關的商務部長他們的說法都是要把台灣的半導體全部移回美國因為你看原文他確實是用all的方式all that他就說all that所以他說全部都要移到美國去那我們對這方面有進行相關的因應或是準備嗎"},{"start":694.771,"end":713.239,"text":"因為半導體的發展它是需要時間所以我們原則上我們必須要掌握的最先進的技術一定要留在台灣這個部分我們同時同步的也會協助我們的廠商進行相關的研發一直把最先進的技術給開發出來留在台灣"},{"start":715,"end":738.181,"text":"那最後問一個問題就是呢因為台積電到美國那投資一千到兩千億左右這件事情也引發台灣不少的議論那大家就在問的是說那聯電是否也會出走這件事情請問經濟部是否有掌握或者是這是一個不對的消息是不是可以幫我們澄清一下我們對於市場的傳言不做任何的評論好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":294,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時39分）謝謝主席。我想先請外交部，經濟部稍等。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：您好。關於昨天的質詢，我們在調查的過程當中，因為外交部剛好有兩位同名同姓之人，導致我們誤植其中一位常任文官的照片以及職位，造成當事人的困擾，因此在這裡我要先向外交部以及該常任文官（何先生）和他的家人，表達最深的歉意。昨天我也向林佳龍部長就此事聯繫，清楚地表達我的歉意，同時我也希望國安局針對林部長所說的偵查中的另外一起案件，同名同姓的政治幕僚何先生，能夠儘快讓所謂的共諜案水落石出。但是我想我說錯了人就是說錯了人，誤用了他的照片，我感到非常的抱歉，所以在此也向您以及何先生及其家屬再次地表達歉意。","我今天主要跟您談論的是川普的關稅政策，所以我們也請經濟部一起上來。次長，我們看到這次川普政府緩徵關稅90天，等於我們多了90天的時間來說服美方降低或取消百分之三十二的關稅，對我們來說其實是一件很好的事情。尤其昨天還看到了，史無前例的是川普總統在宣布政策之前，他就發布：This is a great time to buy！我們以前都只聽過內線交易，第一次看到外線交易，所以今天看到臺股能夠翻紅，我們都覺得非常的開心，但這個情況能夠實施多久、能夠維持多久，都端看我們外交部以及經濟部的努力。能夠延遲90天讓國家暫時脫離險境，但是我們也注意到，中國被美國課徵125%的關稅，他們今天的股票仍然是上漲的，這一點我們也應該要去注意到。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們特別想要問經濟部，就是川普他們暫緩即日起對各國的對等關稅，像我們是32%的稅率，現在各國適用10%的稅率，事實上比原本我們跟美國之間課的稅率，還是比較高的，仍然會對產業造成影響，在這方面我們是否仍然會持續對產業進行協助，甚至補貼？"],["江次長文若：是，謝謝委員的指教。其實我們政府有提出因應美國關稅的產業支援方案，從不同的面向，剛才行政院院會已經通過這個產業支援方案措施不變，而且院長有裁示要請相關部會儘速研擬措施，我們在4月14號會對外正式公布。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。請問一下，先前行政院所提出的880億支持出口供應鏈方案，仍然是以880億的規模持續進行嗎？"],["江次長文若：沒錯，是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，也會提出特別條例嗎？"],["江次長文若：會的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的。因為現在的關稅問題，除了之前我們講到的基本關稅之外，先前美國有針對全球產業特定的部分關稅，像是鋼鐵業等等，請問這也包含在90天的暫停範圍之內嗎？"],["江次長文若：沒有，鋼鐵業還是維持。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我想要請問一下，除了基本關稅的10%，以及加徵的32%之外，還有哪一些部分是特定的產業仍然有比較高的關稅？有哪一些產業是如此的？"],["江次長文若：32%這個已經……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們了解。"],["江次長文若：改為10%……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是延長啦！"],["江次長文若：對，除了這個以外，鋼鋁的關稅是25%，但是跟委員報告，我們先前輸美的話就是25%，所以現在變成跟其他國家齊頭都是百分之二十……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那還有其他的產業？"],["江次長文若：對，還有汽車產業，汽車產業還是維持25%的關稅。"],["徐委員巧芯：汽車產業維持25%的關稅。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：就是美國對我們的課徵，對不對？"],["江次長文若：就是基本的MFN的稅率。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，原本美國對我們課徵的稅率是多少？"],["江次長文若：看各個產業不同，資通訊產業的話是零關稅。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我剛剛問的是汽車的部分。"],["江次長文若：汽車要看不同的零件，大概百分之二十左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：25%。"],["江次長文若：25%。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以25%的部分也是沒有變動的嗎？"],["江次長文若：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒有變動的。有具體變動的還有哪一些？你們可以告訴我們大家，就是民眾很想知道所謂這些針對全球產業的部分關稅，不包含在32%裡面的，有沒有其他產業是有高於原本的關稅？"],["江次長文若：就是鋼鋁，還有汽車產業，目前是確定的……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，因為它們本來就都一樣，一樣的我們就不談了……"],["江次長文若：對，汽車產業……"],["徐委員巧芯：有高於的。"],["江次長文若：汽車產業是……"],["徐委員巧芯：汽車產業您剛剛說25%，現在也是25%的話，那是沒有高於啊！所以是不是請補充一下相關的資訊，讓我們國人知道有增加的部分大概是哪一些？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，川普總統曾經有說過，可能會對藥品、半導體還有銅製品加徵關稅。到目前為止，並沒有這樣的訊息。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，所以可能會有這幾樣，未來即便是在32%關稅延長的狀態之下，仍然會另外課稅的可能性，就是你們不排除的嘛！"],["江次長文若：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們現在雙方已經都在交換資訊，這請外交部來回答。臺灣不只是關稅談判，還有對美的投資、採購等等，我想問一下我們這次談判小組的成員由哪一些人來組成？"],["陳次長明祺：現在據我們已經公布的就是由行政院副院長鄭麗君副院長領隊，其他的成員我想都可以想像得到，包括外交部、OTN……"],["徐委員巧芯：外交部在裡面是擔任什麼樣的一個角色？"],["陳次長明祺：我們主要是掌握相關的管道，同時美處也隨時會把相關訊息傳遞回來臺灣，還有包括我們之前的掛號也都是進行的。"],["徐委員巧芯：了解，我們對美關稅談判的首席代表是鄭麗君女士嘛！"],["陳次長明祺：這一次特別是政院宣布由鄭副院長來擔任首席代表……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，鄭副院長在領銜的部分，請問他已經出訪或是聯繫美方了嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：這我們不便透露，第一個，昨天……"],["徐委員巧芯：他人還在國內，對不對？新聞報導是如此寫的，如果不對的話可以告訴我們，讓我們能夠勘誤。"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，這個我們沒有訊息。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有訊息，好，那我剛剛講的是新聞上的訊息……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們可以不回應，這個沒有問題。我們質疑的地方是如果鄭麗君副院長還在國內的話，他到底要怎麼樣去談判？他有沒有打電話給川普的官員，能夠來通電話？因為我們可以看到好幾位高層都已經到華府去面對面的協商，或者是打了相關的電話去。","我另外再問一個問題，去年川普在選舉的期間就已經提出過，他要利用關稅這件事情來進行他們對全世界一些可能的貿易策略……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們可以看一下，當時我們的外交部政務次長吳志中次長就說，川普聲稱臺灣偷走美國晶片的生意是選舉語言。外交部對於過去次長這樣的說法，是不是會覺得因此我們晚了很多的時間做準備？我們當初真的把它當成了選舉語言嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，選舉語言當然是一部分，另外一個部分就是，其實可能一部分的美國政治領袖對於臺灣晶片的優勢有一些不完整的掌握，所以我們也盡力地跟他們溝通……"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好。"],["陳次長明祺：臺灣做到這樣一個程度並不是所謂偷走的問題，而是我們在技術上面精益求精。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，但是因為川普已經不是第一次說是偷走的問題。","請主席再給我一點時間，我最後一個問題。就是美國的商務部長，剛剛大家都有提到，他在4月3號接受訪問的時候表示，川普將會深入研究這些內容，也就是剛剛經濟部談到的，包含半導體等等，措施會陸續提出，目的是要把所有來自臺灣的半導體產業移植回美國，經濟部如果有需要的話可以來回應這個題目。關於CNBC的逐字稿裡面寫得很清楚，Donald Trump's going to deeply study those. And those are going to come later on how to reshore from Taiwan all that semiconductor manufacturing.所以，基本上是所有的半導體產業，裡面寫的是「all」，不是「half」或是「some of」，所以我想要請問，針對美國商務部長的這個訪問裡面，他提到的措施是會陸續把臺灣的半導體產業全部移到美國，這個部分經濟部的看法目前是如何？評估狀況是如何？"],["江次長文若：其實我們的業者到海外的布局最主要的考量是客戶的需求，因為可以就近接近客戶，像美國有很多大廠因為要發展AI、要發展人工運算，所以都會……"],["徐委員巧芯：我了解，如果是我們主動去的話當然沒有問題，但如果是像這樣子，這個說法是美國商務部長要求，就以美方的角度，要求半導體要來到美國，因為就像川普說的，他一直強調，他講了至少三次以上，說臺灣偷走了美國的晶片跟半導體，這句話我想我之前也問過林佳龍部長，他也不同意，甚至我問了一些美方的友人，他們也不是這麼的同意，但是現在川普上任之後，他以及他相關的商務部長，他們的說法都是要把臺灣的半導體全部移回美國，因為你看原文，它確實是用「all that」的方式，所以他說全部都要移到美國去，我們對這方面有進行相關的因應或是準備嗎？"],["江次長文若：因為半導體的發展是需要時間，所以原則上我們必須要掌握最先進的技術一定要留在臺灣，這個部分我們同時同步也會協助我們的廠商進行相關的研發，一直把最先進的技術開發出來留在臺灣。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，最後問一個問題，因為台積電到美國投資1,000到2,000億左右，這件事情也引發臺灣不少議論，大家就在問聯電是否也會出走？這件事情請問經濟部是否有掌握？或者這是一個不對的消息？是不是可以幫我們澄清一下？"],["江次長文若：我們對於市場的傳言不做任何的評論。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["江次長文若：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。待會楊瓊瓔委員質詢完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。","請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712ce25b6138c6b1809f11452c3877738ca1a30f584bceeba99770e63ee77b9ab1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:36:38 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非常簡單您這部分這樣我想請教一下陳部長"},{"start":107.441,"end":128.199,"text":"跟委員報告農業的部分基本上相關目前因為目前的我們國內的農產品平均關稅是大概16.6那如果用貿易價錢的話大概9.3、9.4左右是那是有比工業產品還高一點但是農業有農業的特殊性農業有確保糧食安全的一個非常重要的責任所以在未來談判的過程中"},{"start":129.68,"end":148.512,"text":"針對糧食安全必須要去確保的這些品項我們都希望能夠維持我們現在處理的一個模式來確保我們產業的穩定性至於其他的一些美國輸出的比較少的對國內影響比較小的這些產品"},{"start":151.213,"end":159.917,"text":"談關稅的過程中也不是一步到位不管是關稅是談到多少也不是一步到位一定有他的理解齊成好那個請一下李政次"},{"start":161.528,"end":180.318,"text":"基本上財政部因為我們不是談判的代表但是呢剛才兩位部長講的就是我們的方向那我們財政部這邊的這個重要的政策就是說我們配合提供所有的關稅目前進出的關稅好理解喔那我想問一下總統在講零關稅開始談的時候有沒有跟郭部長或陳部長這邊有溝通過這個部分還是沒有就是行政院經貿談判辦公室他們就直接訂出一個這樣的一個策略"},{"start":189.011,"end":205.826,"text":"我想整個談判本身行政院有行政院的一個招一個談判小組然後包括OTM的部分然後相關的這些所以他們之前在訂這個靈官所以這有沒有跟陳部長或跟郭部長這邊有談過我們有交往過一些意見有交往過一些意見郭部長這邊"},{"start":207.611,"end":235.156,"text":"都有啦 這個不一樣OK 好那我為什麼特別這樣問的狀態其實是因為我們講零關稅因為我們對美的一個貿易順差有700億那很大一部分在我們高科技的產業坦白說或中小企業都有貢獻可是我們農業是逆差的我們以去年來講我們農業逆差大概28億對不對所以事實上在不同的狀態的時候我們要怎麼樣同樣用一個零關稅去談呢這是一件我覺得很值得去討論的事情"},{"start":236.556,"end":261.193,"text":"然後另外一個部分呢就是我昨天有特別請教郭部長一個狀態就是說因為有特別提到說行政院完成對盤點對農工石油天然氣產品的一個大量採購計畫嘛我昨天問說那我們政府這邊這個所謂大量採購計畫的規模大概是多大你昨天跟我講說因為是談判的籌碼不能夠透露可是你剛剛跟楊瓊瑛委員講說我們政府大概預計要有兩千億的規模"},{"start":263.775,"end":281.432,"text":"對不對2000億的規模你剛剛是回答楊強英委員這個部分嗎是 剛才回答的部分是我回去以後再了解一下的那大概是這樣的一個規模但是事實上談判啊會用什麼樣的規模跟美方談判這個是我不清楚的事情OK"},{"start":281.872,"end":302.585,"text":"我只是要特別講是因為昨天我在問這個部分的時候你跟我講說因為是一個談判的籌碼不能夠透露可是剛剛楊宣維問的時候你直接講說我們政府採購大概會有2000億的規模10年然後還不含民間的一個部分所以我針對這部分的時候我想說部長這邊多了解的時候我在想說我這邊也"},{"start":303.345,"end":329.058,"text":"不做太多的一個責難不過我很想知道我們到底有哪些籌碼在跟美國接下來這90天的談判過程當中的時候能夠為台灣爭取到最多的一個資源因為我這邊我要特別講一個情況是川普目前在做關稅顯然其實是一個很清楚這是他的一個工具他其實是要讓整個很多全球的一個高科技的製造業能夠回流到美國去"},{"start":329.938,"end":350.555,"text":"那台積電其實願意投資一千億的時候我昨天也特別問了就說他說台積電如果沒有兌現要擴增100%的關稅那你昨天是回我說你還不曉得這個狀態對那這當然是也許是一個放話部長這邊也要特別做補充報告委員昨天你的這個垂詢以後我們回去去了解這個命題"},{"start":351.756,"end":376.488,"text":"那這個是有這個智庫回應給我啦他說這個是川普在跟其他人談話的時候說你看我在把台積電啊帶到美國來他現在承諾要投資一千億美元是因為我之前告訴他你如果不來我就是要課你錢可是前後邏輯有點不太一樣這是不同的話OK好理解"},{"start":377.068,"end":385.212,"text":"所以你覺得媒體報導有失真是這個意思對不對好那我接下來因為時間有限我就先直接進到一個狀態就是因為這次的那個880億當中的時候700億是經濟部主責然後針對經濟部這邊出來是410億但農業部這邊有180億"},{"start":396.218,"end":423.011,"text":"那我想特別問一下因為我剛剛有特別提到說農業不止180億當中分成三大面向六大措施來做那其中有一個部分是開拓多元市場高達72億那我想請教一下陳部長因為農業部近年的一個年體媒體那個跟媒宣的費用大概都落在1.16億到1.46億之間然後這個已經是高居各部會的一個"},{"start":424.272,"end":442.585,"text":"之冠 前幾名那如果再加上特別預算和非營業的一個基金的時候整個媒體宣傳費在4.1.4億到2億之間也在排行也在各部會的一個前面現在用到72億要去做這樣的一個宣傳的時候那我們等於是"},{"start":444.448,"end":464.935,"text":"農業部三四十年的預算我們要怎麼去用我們請部長做一個說明委員誤解了我們所編列的國內外行銷不是在媒體放廣告行銷我們是真正的我以國外的行銷來講分兩個部分一個是我們會鼓勵這些"},{"start":466.155,"end":494.223,"text":"目標的這些市場裡面的我們農產品拉的一個外銷獎勵然後另外一個部分是我們會帶我們的所有的業者重要的業者到不同的國家去參加展覽去做這樣的一個行銷那國內的行銷我們會結合賣場去做實質的就實質的event不是一個媒體行銷你要特別講所以你講說這72億當中大部分的是在做event行銷對不對活動式的行銷"},{"start":495.143,"end":517.692,"text":"對 然後還有外銷獎勵的部分因為不同的國家跟外銷獎勵嗎因為我要特別講到說因為經濟部才410億然後農業部這180億可是因為整個的規模不一樣那我們其實在整個農業這個部分的時候我們剛剛也提到說我們密差是28億算起來等於是不到300億290幾億的台幣那我們要花180億來應對這樣子的一個狀態的時候在金融支持這20億我覺得可以沒有問題我去做一個"},{"start":524.975,"end":554.595,"text":"農業的一個貸款補貼的一個支持我就沒有問題那提升產業競爭力是84億因為我看到這些工作是本來農業部就在做的工作所以這個84億這邊的時候他現在在做我就不太理解說這不就是原本農業部本來就在做那我們針對這個美國這一次的關稅當中的時候我們直接把這個180億推出來的時候然後我們的效益到底在哪裡有沒有做過比較具體的一個評估"},{"start":555.535,"end":577.743,"text":"還是因為時間很趕我們就把他列出一個目標匡列出來我想我們的一個目標因為整個外銷到美國如果受阻的話那第一個就是說我們農產品必須拉到其他的國家去可以會不會強化但是相對的國內的這些標章特別是強調標章的這個部分是在我們的過往的是沒有特別去強化它"},{"start":578.323,"end":598.668,"text":"那我們在一個體質的提升的部分我們希望說針對這個受衝擊的產業有更多的資金去預助讓他能夠快速的成長特別是中國現在目前關稅很高其實對我們來講是一個機會所以我們希望說有更多的這種海外的佈局跟海外的這種產品的一個輸出是一個機會"},{"start":599.609,"end":614.669,"text":"謝謝沈部長我在想我最後講兩個點就是為什麼一開始問到零關稅這個部分因為其實我們在WTO的框架當中的時候從GATT開始的時候我們如果是有零關稅它其實是要那個最惠國普遍的一個待遇"},{"start":615.109,"end":629.287,"text":"然後各國都出現這個狀態我們要對所有的WTA的國家都去面對同樣的狀態那對台灣的衝擊其實是很全面的這是一個點所以我看到關務署這邊原本的預計今年的預算是1623億"},{"start":631.229,"end":653.08,"text":"那我不知道這東西如果說真的是關稅用零關稅一談之後會變多少這先不用回答沒有關係因為時間有限那我最後我想特別提到一個點就是因為川普這次整個政策我看起來說事實上想讓製造業回流尤其是台灣有競爭優勢的高科技那這個部分跟郭國強這邊會有非常的相關那因為您之前也特別提到說"},{"start":653.98,"end":681.606,"text":"境外官內的概念那我在這邊要特別提到一個點就是說會不會在這過程當中的時候讓很多的台灣的高科技產業因為這一波當中反而出走之後然後影響到台灣就是他們要深耕台灣這樣的一個狀態這個部分可不可以請郭部長簡單回應一下報告委員我們對應這個關稅的部分我想剛才你所說的我們會不會到"},{"start":682.967,"end":707.444,"text":"到其他的地方去做投資建廠這個必須要根據每個業界每個廠商他們自己的能力跟他們的客戶的狀況來做決定針對這個部分我想各種的假設都有我們一直在盤點因為我們科技業確實跟美國是互補的這是一個其中的選項"},{"start":708.407,"end":727.306,"text":"不過對我們來講讓台灣台灣的製造業智慧製造更強大這個是我們主要的目標OK不過我這邊也特別提到一下因為台積電是一千億台幣說影響很大因為雖然說這幾年可能影響還不大因為原本台積電在台灣的投資就還繼續包括在嘉義"},{"start":727.907,"end":751.728,"text":"在台南 在高雄 在新竹都有台中有可是我覺得五年之後呢也許會不會全部的投資本投資都在美國那基本上就會影響到台灣那再加上他如果說整個半導體的產業鏈生態系要一併移到美國去的時候我怕會對未來台灣的整個總體經濟還有消費跟投資都產生很大的一個影響"},{"start":752.509,"end":759.999,"text":"所以希望經濟部針對這部分能夠有更緊密更審慎的一個評估去判斷這部分我們會納入考慮謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時36分）謝謝主席。請經濟部郭部長、農業部陳部長，還有財政部李政次，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請上列官員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：首先要請教三位，接下來美國這邊要延長90天才執行對等關稅，我們開始要進入很重要的談判階段，賴總統提到我們要從零關稅開始談，請教三位部長跟次長，怎麼看我們這個零關稅的主張？先請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，總統指示零關稅開始談，所以是零關稅開始談，而不是談零關稅，我想字義上總統已經解釋非常清楚……"],["鄭委員正鈐：零關稅其實是個目標，能不能達成是另外一件事。"],["郭部長智輝：對、對。因為我們目前的稅率，就工業品來講，現在對美國關稅大概是4.8%，美國是3.1%，這個gap其實是不大的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["郭部長智輝：所以會從這上面去談。至於製造業關稅降為零，政府大概沒有這個預設立場，就像我剛才講的，是從零開始談，整個談判會整體考量，而談判的目的，總統的指示是對產業的影響要抓住，所以提供給談判單位他們去綜合考量，這個部分跟委員報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，部長，簡單，您的部分就這樣。接下來我想請教陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，農業的部分，目前國內的農產品平均關稅大概16.6%，如果用貿易價錢的話，大概是9.3%、9.4%左右，是比工業產品高一點，但農業有農業的特殊性，確保糧食安全是一個非常重要的責任，所以在未來的談判過程中，針對糧食安全必須要確保的這些品項，我們都希望能夠維持現在的處理模式，確保我們產業的穩定性。至於其他一些美國輸出比較少的、對國內影響比較小的產品，我們在談關稅的過程中，也不是一步到位，不管關稅談到多少，都不是一步到位，一定有它的期程。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，理解。請問李政次。"],["李次長慶華：委員，基本上財政部並不是談判代表，但是剛才兩位部長講的就是我們的方向，財政部重要的政策，就是配合提供所有關稅及目前進出口相關資料給他們參考。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，理解。總統在講零關稅開始談的時候，有沒有跟郭部長或陳部長先做過溝通？還是沒有，就是行政院經貿談判辦公室直接定出這樣一個策略？"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個談判本身，行政院有行政院談判小組，包括OTN的部分，然後相關的這些……"],["鄭委員正鈐：他們之前在定這個零關稅時，有沒有跟陳部長或郭部長談過？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有交換過一些意見。"],["鄭委員正鈐：有交換過意見，郭部長這邊呢？"],["郭部長智輝：都有啦！這個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：都有？好，OK。我為什麼特別這樣問？因為我們講零關稅，我們對美貿易順差有700億，坦白說有很大一部分是在高科技產業或中小企業，他們都有貢獻，可是我們的農業是逆差的，以去年來講，農業逆差大概28億，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，28億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以事實上是有不同的狀態，那我們要怎麼用同樣一個零關稅去談？我覺得這是一件很值得討論的事情。另外，我昨天有特別請教郭部長一個問題，因為有特別提到行政院完成對農、工、石油、天然氣產品的一個大量採購計畫，所以我昨天問部長，政府對這個所謂大量採購計畫的規模大概是多大？昨天你跟我說，因為是談判的籌碼，不能夠透露。可是你剛剛回答楊瓊瓔委員時說政府預計大概是2,000億的規模，對不對？就是你剛剛回答楊瓊瓔委員的這個部分嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是，剛才回答的部分是我回去以後再了解一下，大概是這樣一個規模，但事實上會用什麼樣的規模跟美方談判，這個是我不清楚的事情。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我只是要特別講，因為昨天我問這個問題時，你跟我說因為是談判籌碼，不能夠透露，可是剛剛楊瓊瓔委員問的時候，你直接講說政府採購大概10年會有2,000億的規模，還不包含民間的部分。針對這個部分，我想說的是，部長這邊多去了解，我也不做太多的責難，不過我很想知道，在跟美國接下來這90天的談判過程當中，到底我們有哪些籌碼，能夠為臺灣爭取到最多的資源？這裡我要特別提出一個情況，川普目前做的關稅議題，顯然很清楚這就是他的一個工具，他其實是要讓全球很多高科技製造業能夠回流到美國。針對台積電投資1,000億的議題，我昨天也特別問了，川普說台積電如果沒有兌現，要課徵100%的關稅，你昨天回我說還不曉得這個狀態，當然這也許只是一個放話，部長這邊有沒有特別要補充的？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，昨天你垂詢以後，我回去有去了解這個命題，有智庫回應我說這是川普在跟其他人談話的時候說：你看！我把台積電帶到美國來，他現在承諾要投資1,000億美元，因為我之前告訴他如果不來，就要課他稅……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是前後邏輯有點不太一樣。"],["郭部長智輝：這是不同的話，所以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以你覺得媒體報導有失真，是這個意思，對不對？好，接下來，因為時間有限，我就直接進到一個狀態，就是這次紓困的880億，其中工業面向700億由經濟部主責，經濟部祭出四項措施合計410億；農業面向是180億，農業部提出三大面向、六大措施，其中有一個面向是「開拓多元市場」，高達72億，請教陳部長，因為農業部近年的媒宣費用大概都落在1.16億到1.46億之間，已經高居各部會之冠，就是前幾名，如果再加上特別預算和非營業基金，整個媒體宣傳費在1.4億到2億之間，排行也在各部會的前面，現在用72億要去做這樣的宣傳，等於是農業部三、四十年的預算，你們打算要怎麼用？可不可以請部長做個說明？"],["陳部長駿季：我想委員誤解了，我們所編列的國內外行銷，不是在媒體放廣告行銷，而是真正的……以國外行銷來講，分兩個部分：一個是鼓勵把農產品拉到這些目標市場裡的一個外銷獎勵，另外一個部分，我們會帶所有的業者、重要的業者到不同國家去參加展覽，是做這樣的行銷；國內的行銷，則是結合賣場去做實質的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是實質的event，而不是媒體行銷？"],["陳部長駿季：對，絕對不是媒體行銷。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以你講的這72億，大部分是在做event的行銷、活動式的行銷，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，還有外銷獎勵的部分，因為不同的國家……"],["鄭委員正鈐：跟外銷獎勵嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為經濟部才410億，農業部是180億，可是整個規模並不一樣，其實在農業的部分，我們剛才也提到逆差是28億，算起來不到300億，大概二百九十幾億臺幣，現在我們要花180億來應對這樣一個狀態，在「金融支持」部分是24億，這我覺得可以，沒有問題，因為要做農業貸款利率加碼補貼的支持，我覺得沒有問題。「提升產業競爭力」是84億，我看到這些相關工作本來農業部就有在做，現在又要以84億來做，我就不太理解，這不就是原本農業部就在做的工作嗎？針對美國這一次的關稅調整，我們直接推出這180億經費，請問效益到底在哪裡？有沒有做過比較具體的評估？還是因為時間很趕，就直接把目標匡列出來？"],["陳部長駿季：因為整個外銷到美國如果受阻的話，第一個，我們的農產品必須拉到其他國家去……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳部長駿季：這部分可以稍微強化，但相對的在標章部分，過往我們並沒有特別強化它，所以在這部分的體質提升上，我們希望針對這些受衝擊的產業，有更多的資金挹注，讓它能夠快速成長，特別是中國現在關稅很高，對我們來講，也是一個機會，所以我們希望有更多的海外布局和海外產品的輸出，這都是一個機會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝陳部長。我最後再講兩個點，為什麼我一開始問到零關稅的問題？因為在WTO的框架當中，在GATT是有普遍最惠國待遇，如果我們是零關稅，那要對各國都出現這個狀態，亦即我們對所有的WTO國家都要面對同樣的狀態，這對臺灣的衝擊其實是很全面的，這是一個點，所以我看到關務署原本今年的預算是1,623億，如果我們真的用零關稅去談，最後會剩多少？這個先不用回答沒有關係，因為時間有限，我想特別再提到一個點，川普這次的整個政策，看起來事實上是想讓製造業回流，尤其是臺灣有競爭優勢的高科技，這個部分跟郭部長非常相關，因為您之前也特別提到境外關內的概念，我在這邊要特別提到一個點，就是會不會在這個過程當中，讓很多臺灣的高科技產業，因為這一波影響反而出走，然後影響到深耕臺灣這樣一個狀態？這個部分可不可以請郭部長簡單回應？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對應關稅的部分，剛才你所說的，我們會不會到其他地方投資、建廠，我想這個必須要根據每個業界、每個廠商他們自己的能力跟他們的客戶狀況來決定，針對這個部分，我想各種假設都有，我們也一直在盤點，因為我們的科技業確實跟美國是互補的，這是一個其中選項，不過對我們來講，讓臺灣的製造業、智慧製造更強大，這是我們主要的目標。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，不過這邊我也要特別提到，因為台積電這1,000億投資對臺灣影響很大，雖然這幾年可能影響還不大，因為原本台積電在臺灣的投資就還繼續，包括在嘉義、臺南、高雄、新竹、臺中都有，可是我覺得五年之後，也許會不會全部的資本投資都在美國，那基本上就會影響到臺灣，再加上如果整個半導體產業鏈生態系一併移到美國，我怕會對未來臺灣的整個總體經濟，還有消費跟投資產生很大影響。所以希望經濟部針對這部分能夠有更緊密、更審慎的評估去判斷。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，這部分我們會納入考慮。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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有哪些包括像這個進口的配額包括檢疫包括像我們的基因的食品這些我們政府的規定都被美國在挑剔"},{"start":202.097,"end":225.772,"text":"甚至是我們的外匯市場的人為干預這個在美國的報告裡面都有提出來所以你的意思是說總統講的零關稅因為他今天才投書外媒你就覺得他講的不是重點重點應該是你剛剛講的那些零關稅其實對我們大部分的產品已經很低了只有少數像汽車有點偏高還是17.5"},{"start":227.193,"end":250.629,"text":"像保健食品30%有點偏高那是大部分的進口產品都非常非常低關鍵是在所以我們拿零關稅去跟他談他應該是不會買單啦應該是副院長剛剛講的那些貿易非貿易障礙嘛要去把它消除之後美國可能才會給我們降低關稅你的意思是這樣喔對那我希望說你可以跟總統建議一下"},{"start":252.134,"end":271.668,"text":"那再來就是我們看這個GDP一定會下修嘛那我們看下一頁這個是也是經濟所前一年12月公佈的CPI物價指數是2.02那請問一下問一下所長好了你覺得我們的CPI會增加增加"},{"start":273.301,"end":291.61,"text":"我們的CPI事實上這個是因為這是去年12月的預估啦那因為當時大家也不知道說川普會提高關稅到32%嘛那經濟所會重新預估一下嗎會的那你覺得應該他的走勢會怎麼樣主要的問題還是在這個"},{"start":294.481,"end":315.695,"text":"水電的價格我是說關稅的影響因為川普的關稅政策會不會影響到我們國內的物價我是經濟所負責的梁淑君我想從關稅角度來看的話如果我們出口會下降的話而且因為對這個出口衰退的預期會導致資本外流"},{"start":316.455,"end":332.788,"text":"這兩個因素都會有對我們新台幣貶值造成壓力那如果是這樣從這個角度來看的話確實會造成輸入性通膨那在這個基礎上原本物價的壓力就挺高的那有可能會讓物價有更上升的壓力"},{"start":333.75,"end":348.616,"text":"那現在有辦法預估嗎?還是不確定?我們現在因為就是這個關稅的幅度還不確定然後執行的長度也不確定我們修正的方向應該是會還是維持在二以上但是具體幅度現在還需要觀察"},{"start":349.276,"end":375.843,"text":"還有觀察 謝謝接下來再問一下匯率這是也是經濟所的預測也是去年12月公佈的是預測說美元匯率大概是32.51那是不是也來預測一下因為川普這個關稅政策就我剛才提到的兩個因素都是會讓匯率有貶值的壓力所以原來的預測應該是有一點高估了有點高估"},{"start":377.648,"end":402.275,"text":"我特別來問這些問題就是要說因為我們看我們不管是所長副所長副院長當然院長是統領所有中研院大家其實對經濟都很了解而且也都非常關心所以如果中研院可以主動出席雖然我們現在剛剛問起來好像行政院或經貿辦公室並沒有來問你們意見開會沒有找你們但我覺得如果中研院既然我們有這麼豐沛的研究能量"},{"start":403.095,"end":428.519,"text":"主動出擊第一位政府給他們正確的方向這可以幫助台灣度過經濟危機那接下來再來我們來看一下這是前一段時間引起了一個風波那個經濟所還有那個副院長可以請回這應該是國建所這個一個生物醫學科技科學研究所之前一個風波就是有民眾反映"},{"start":430.216,"end":453.221,"text":"忽然間有中研院的人找他們說要抽血檢查而且指定小朋友所以大家非常的害怕那這個當時是公文公文是這個我想請問一下為什麼會發生這樣的事情因為任何的現在家長對於小朋友都很寶貝忽然有人上門指定說要抽小朋友的血大家都會非常害怕這個事情為什麼會這樣我想這是個誤會我們請那個所長來解釋"},{"start":458.646,"end":461.509,"text":"委員好 我是生意所所長陳盈莊很簡短的跟您報告一下這是一個國建署的委託計畫基本上是針對全台灣的民眾來做調查所以沒有集中在小朋友上面那基本上它有一個很特別的抽樣式全台灣會抽出八十個里八十個里每一個里還會再抽出十個家庭"},{"start":479.205,"end":484.129,"text":"那他們在做家訪的時候呢會先寫一封信問說願不願意受訪然後呢當時訪問的時候也會把信帶去如果他們不願意受訪那這個事情就會結束如果會訪問的話也會在當時在安排下面訪問的時間所以實際上這個可能是一個誤會這是一個誤會"},{"start":501.757,"end":520.908,"text":"但當時媒體人爆了蠻大的因為那既然有誤會我覺得中研院我們都相信中研院不會作亂七八糟事情啦可是如果說是有誤會造成人家心情恐慌可能要思考一下那個流程是不是在哪個地方有疏失啦我覺得大家可能再思考一下是 我們有檢查SOP 謝謝OK 謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員院長請回讓我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":533.376,"end":534.438,"text":"有發言的感覺"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":473,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時34分）麻煩請院長，還有彭信坤副院長、經濟所的所長。"],["主席：請廖院長跟副院長，還有所長。"],["廖院長俊智：葉委員早。"],["葉委員元之：院長、副院長還有所長好。因為中研院有發布一個2025臺灣經濟情勢總展望，其實最近幾天大家對於經濟是最關心的，中研院又算是我們研究能量最高的機關，所以當然很想要來了解一下，我們政府或經濟部到底有沒有就這波川普關稅對臺灣的影響來跟中研院請教，院長，有嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：有，中研院在這方面是有相當多的實力。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，因為現在政府推出了很多政策，事先有沒有跟中研院這邊，不管是經濟所所長或者是彭信坤副院長，請教我們應該怎麼因應這一波經濟危機？有嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：假如是政府單位來跟中研院的個別研究同仁進行磋商的話，不會經過院方，所以我不會知道。"],["葉委員元之：那有沒有來問一下副院長你的意見？"],["彭副院長信坤：目前沒有。"],["葉委員元之：那有沒有跟經濟所張俊仁所長詢問？"],["張所長俊仁：目前我也沒有。"],["葉委員元之：也都沒有。這樣我就利用這個機會來跟大家請教一下，第一個，這份報告是去年12月出刊的，當時這份報告裡面對於我們GDP年增率的預估值是3.1%，我想請問一下副院長，因為我也看過您最近發表的文章，您去年11月有去演講，今年1月也有演講，實際上你都有提到川普當選之後有一個不確定性。現在已經很明確了，他本來關稅是要加到32%，但現在暫緩90天，先10%，就你的預估，對於我們GDP的影響是怎麼樣？"],["彭副院長信坤：非常感謝葉委員有注意到我的那個演講，不過目前非常難預料，我想現在是瞬息萬變，我會覺得去年的預測3.1%是不可能達到的。"],["葉委員元之：不可能嘛！所以你覺得會下修多少？"],["彭副院長信坤：不可能達到，一定會下修，至於會下修多少，我要觀察未來幾個月的時間，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：我再請問一下副院長，因為現在總統的講法是說要用零關稅的基礎去跟美國談判，他的講法是這樣，請問一下您支持以零關稅去談這樣的作法嗎？"],["彭副院長信坤：報告葉委員，這個零關稅不是關鍵，因為我們的法定關稅非常低，已經不到2%，現在問題的關鍵是在非關稅貿易障礙。"],["葉委員元之：對，有哪些？"],["彭副院長信坤：包括像進口的配額、檢疫、基因的食品等，我們政府的規定都被美國挑剔，甚至是我們外匯市場的人為干預，這個在美國的報告裡面都有提出來。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以你的意思是，總統講的零關稅，因為他今天才投書外媒，你覺得他講的不是重點，重點應該是你剛才講的那些嘛！"],["彭副院長信坤：零關稅，其實我們大部分的產品已經很低了，只有少數像汽車有點偏高，是17.5%，或是像保健食品30%，有點偏高，但是大部分的進口產品都非常、非常低，關鍵是在……"],["葉委員元之：非常低，所以我們拿零關稅去跟他談，他應該是不會買單，應該是副院長剛剛講的那些非貿易障礙，要去把它消除之後，美國可能才會給我們降低關稅，你的意思是這樣？"],["彭副院長信坤：對。"],["葉委員元之：我希望你可以跟總統建議一下。","再來，GDP一定會下修，我們看下一頁，這個也是經濟所前一年12月公布的CPI（物價指數），是2.02%，請問一下所長，你覺得我們的CPI會增加嗎？"],["張所長俊仁：我們的CPI事實上……"],["葉委員元之：因為這是去年12月的預估，當時大家也不知道川普會提高關稅到32%，那經濟所會重新預估嗎？"],["張所長俊仁：會的。"],["葉委員元之：你覺得它的走勢會怎麼樣？"],["張所長俊仁：主要的問題還是在水電的價格會不會……"],["葉委員元之：我是說關稅的影響，因為川普的關稅政策會不會影響到我們國內的物價？"],["楊副所長淑珺：從關稅角度來看，如果我們出口會下降的話，而且因為對出口衰退的預期會導致資本外流，這兩個因素都會對新臺幣貶值造成壓力，如果是從這個角度來看的話，確實會造成輸入性通膨，在這個基礎上，原本物價的壓力就挺高的，那有可能會讓物價有更上升的壓力。"],["葉委員元之：現在有辦法預估嗎？還是不確定？"],["楊副所長淑珺：現在因為這個關稅的幅度還不確定，執行的長度也不確定，我們修正的方向應該還是會維持在2%以上，但是具體幅度現在還需要觀察。"],["葉委員元之：還要觀察，好，謝謝。","接下來再問一下匯率，這也是經濟所的預測，也是去年12月公布的，你們預測美元匯率大概是32.51，那是不是也來預測一下，因為川普這個關稅政策……"],["楊副所長淑珺：就我剛才提到的兩個因素都是會讓匯率有貶值的壓力，所以原來的預測應該是有一點高估了。"],["葉委員元之：有點高估。我特別來問這些問題就是因為，不管是所長、副所長、副院長，當然院長是統領所有中研院，大家其實對經濟都很了解，而且也都非常關心，所以如果中研院可以主動出擊，雖然剛剛問起來，好像行政院或經貿辦公室並沒有來問你們意見，開會也沒有找你們，但我覺得既然中研院有這麼豐沛的研究能量，主動出擊，提供給政府，給他們正確的方向，這可以幫助臺灣度過經濟危機。","接下來我們來看一下，這是前一段時間引起的一個風波，經濟所還有副院長可以請回，這應該是與生物醫學科學研究所有關，這個風波是有民眾反映忽然間有中研院的人找他們，說要抽血檢查，而且指定小朋友，所以大家非常的害怕，這是當時的公文，我想請問一下為什麼會發生這樣事情？因為現在家長對於小朋友都很寶貝，忽然有人上門指定要抽小朋友的血，大家都非常害怕，這個事情為什麼會這樣？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這是誤會，我們請所長來解釋。"],["陳所長儀莊：委員好，我是生醫所所長陳儀莊。很簡短的跟您報告一下，這是一個國健署的委託計畫，基本上是針對全臺灣的民眾來做調查，所以沒有集中在小朋友上面。它有一個很特別的抽樣是全臺灣會抽出80個里，每一個里還會再抽出10個家庭，他們在做家訪的時候會先寫一封信問願不願意受訪，訪問的時候也會把信帶去，如果他們不願意受訪，這個事情就會結束；如果有訪問的話，也會在當時再安排下面訪問的時間，所以實際上這個可能是一個誤會。"],["葉委員元之：這是一個誤會？"],["陳所長儀莊：是的。"],["葉委員元之：但當時媒體報得蠻大的，既然有誤會，我們都相信中研院不會做亂七八糟的事情，可是如果是有誤會，造成人家心情恐慌，可能要思考一下那個流程是不是在哪個地方有疏失，我覺得大家可能再思考一下。"],["陳所長儀莊：是，我們有檢查SOP，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，院長請回。","我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時43分）","繼續開會（10時49分）"],["主席：我們會議繼續。","接下來請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160068","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160068","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712d4ce7cf3b578fdef39fb4699fde5326172c2a43b2ce79c50a2f0af228fb527a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:31:18 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還有財政部部長 經濟部 農業部次長經濟部的副次長 農業部的杜次長是 總裁 早安 總裁你這幾天"},{"start":16.708,"end":28.682,"text":"睡的怎麼樣?睡眠品質好不好?都還可以所以都是在你的掌握當中?當然我們就是密切的注意"},{"start":32.085,"end":47.471,"text":"這個所有的這個情境不管就是說昨天川普又就是加了這個90天的一個緩衝期跟75個國家一樣這個也是在你的掌控中嗎這個這個我們只會想就是說可能他會他會比較放鬆一點"},{"start":48.892,"end":67.448,"text":"但是他會就說是三個月這個我們也沒辦法掌握所以你也認為在未來就是說在4月2號以後他講了以後這個32%那就是引起了很大的一個震撼他會再放鬆這個也是在你的一顧範圍內我是覺得因為整個他"},{"start":68.129,"end":84.095,"text":"因為他也事實上呢這個川普總統他也沒有想到就是說他美國他本身的那個股市呢會跌得那麼慘所以他還說他不是故意的所以很顯然他也沒有想到總裁你認為他美國的股市"},{"start":84.975,"end":101.332,"text":"不會跌得那麼慘 川普不會認為說他的那個他一開始的時候要實施之前 大家說不會啦 華爾街不會有問題但是呢 他實施了以後呢 整個就跌了連續好幾天我覺得啦 我覺得我的觀察 認為呢 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4.33那我們如果說來把4.332跟這個他將近這個4.9幾來比較的話這個顯然還是很低"},{"start":248.929,"end":269.022,"text":"還是很低所以這個一切都還是在你的掌控我覺得到目前為止我們還是密切注意謝謝你的自信也讓我們感受到一邊一國跟中共我們的經濟其實台灣跟中國就是經濟上是分開的謝謝你剛才講的話今天股市應該會好一點"},{"start":274.718,"end":302.556,"text":"好謝謝那我們經濟部次長那次長我想就是說在整體就是總統回應川普的一個關稅裡頭他有特別講到了就是說他有五大策略這五大策略的話其實他就是要建置一個台灣加一的一個台美最新合作的一個新的一個布局那我想就是說經濟部應該是也是快速的就是下鄉就是在各行各業的產業裡頭你們去"},{"start":305.958,"end":333.309,"text":"聽然後解決什麼樣的一個問題是不是有啟動了這樣子的一個那個計畫包委員我們其實現在已經開始啟動這個產業的這個座談那我想院長跟總統也都分別在本週都會陸續到這個各相關的縣市這些產業聚落去跟這個這些產業界來做一些座談了解他們的一些心聲"},{"start":333.689,"end":353.047,"text":"那你看我們對美出口的只要產品就是說我們在工業的部分鋼鐵 運輸工具 機械石化 塑膠這個運動器材啪啪的還有這個醫療器材一般的化學 家電這些東西我們可想而知這個狀況是會非常慘的不管就是說你是32%還是10%"},{"start":355.529,"end":384.582,"text":"甚至川普會改來改去現在只是有一個90天的一個喘息的一個機會那看到我們的農業更慘了這個讓我們更害怕這個蝴蝶蘭它本來就是茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚剃頭刀、這個鱸魚點點點這些榆木產業它其實也面臨到了一個很大的一個困難所以我在這裡那個次長那個我要問一下農業部次長就是在昨天"},{"start":385.242,"end":413.794,"text":"在本席的一個那個選區裡頭我們的蘭花生物產業我才知道就是說我陪了那個農業部長下去座談的時候我才知道這個我們這一個園區幾乎就是掛掉了完全沒有機會他們的訂單全部都是被退了蝴蝶蘭的訂單全部都被退了所以問題不是說我們在金融上的補助他們多少甚至就是說我們去給他降稅還是說我們就是免收他們的一個租金"},{"start":414.494,"end":423.284,"text":"其實他們面臨到的是一個長期的競爭力你看荷蘭到美國去設種苗廠結果我們台灣還是處在這一個地方那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":430.511,"end":449.217,"text":"非常謝謝委員 委員長期關切農業特別是在我們這個蝴蝶蘭園區這一塊很關心 也給我們一些建議那謝謝昨天經過這樣子的座談 其實我覺得是雙向的第一個是我們跟業者講說我們有哪些措施第二個是我們真的是聽到業者跟我們講說還有哪些可以繼續來做"},{"start":450.517,"end":454.24,"text":"農業其實不是只有成品,不是說那種蘭花有營養,從品苗、從栽培、從整個過程總培到可以到末端,18個月,這18個月訂單全部都是被抽回他們本來的訂單是排了三年了,所以我覺得跨國的蘭花國家隊"},{"start":473.353,"end":488.079,"text":"一定要快速促成要趕快來佈局不然從此以後台灣的蝴蝶蘭在全世界就不見了要提早佈局啦快點來處理這些事情謝謝我的稻米呢我的雞啦我的豬啦這個有沒有什麼樣的一個辦法"},{"start":489.7,"end":511.263,"text":"市長有沒有提出一個什麼樣的一個辦法你看美國那個農產品的零關稅對台灣的農業它是一個很壞很壞的一個影響你知道台灣人都愛吃米台灣人已經關心吃最好的米在未來如果美國米進來的時候那台灣米怎麼辦那我們台灣的"},{"start":512.788,"end":536.525,"text":"雞肉豬肉怎麼辦市長我相信你是在這個農業上的一個前衛你也非常清楚知道就是說台灣豬跟美國豬當然吃起來的口感是完全不一樣那如果在未來台灣的全體就是我們國人的味蕾要做了很大的一個轉變的時候那該怎麼辦有沒有比較好的一個想法"},{"start":537.646,"end":552.265,"text":"應該這樣說啦其實不管是怎麼樣的談判結果就農業部立場保護我們的農業絕對是優先這是第一點第二點其實美國的米跟美國的豬現在也都有台灣來但是消費者選擇就是還是喜歡台灣的米喜歡台灣的豬所以再加上這樣講"},{"start":553.426,"end":569.54,"text":"現在的那個就是進口的豬跟雞那個數量是非常少的你要去面對問題啊你不可以講這樣的話所以將來再選擇做在談判上面一定有一些是我們一定要保護的那你準備好了嗎我想這就是我們的立場一定先優先保護對我們怎麼樣保護呢"},{"start":572.162,"end":596.868,"text":"在關稅談判本來就是沒有說一定全部要變零是從零開始不是全部變零在未來的談判裡頭我們的農業一定是被犧牲的絕對是被犧牲的其實他是一併一個國家來討論啊你這個半導體顯然看起來的時候他有一個人道的一個政策的一個什麼那個保護啊現在就是農業最慘啊你沒有發現到站在這裡就是你最慘了"},{"start":598.534,"end":622.153,"text":"妳沒有感受到嗎也謝謝委員支持啦我想其實整個行政團隊跟談判團隊都知道台灣農業很重要會盡量來爭取所以我想說我希望就是說這個農業部在兩週內就針對了川普關稅的影響的農產品還有生產的一個聚落提供給我們更多的一個詳細的一個評估還有分析的一個"},{"start":622.853,"end":641.677,"text":"那個資料這個資料非常的重要就是你的出口的額度還有你的占比還有你競爭的對手國這個其實都是我們必須要快速去那個彙整的不然在這一波裡頭我覺得台灣的農業也會消失掉這個是我非常擔心的好"},{"start":642.838,"end":671.181,"text":"那我想就是說在這裡在針對的就是說電子零件的一個組合經濟部長我在這裡就是特別在提醒你就是說其實在這個台南裡頭我們的電子零件的組合金屬還有就是化學化學製品塑膠橡膠成品這幾個在台南佔的是一個非常非常重要的一個那個產業的一個生產的一個基地所以我們需要你們更多的一個協助更多的一個幫忙"},{"start":671.681,"end":696.144,"text":"好不好在這裡還特別提到了我想就是美國經濟的一個解放日就是連這個席產地川普都注意到了你看他企鵝他也不要他連企鵝這些都沒有人住的地方他也不放過所以我們不要低估了低估了就是川普這一次他要應用各種手法"},{"start":696.684,"end":704.049,"text":"他要美國再一次的一個偉大這個計畫其實是都讓我們必須要加緊來處理各種的一個問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時31分）謝謝主席，我們請總裁，還有財政部部長、經濟部、農業部次長。"],["主席：總裁、莊部長、經濟部何次長、農業部的杜次長。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴召委好。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁早安。總裁，你這幾天睡得怎麼樣？睡眠品質好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：都還可以。"],["賴委員惠員：都還可以？所以都是在你的掌握當中？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我們就是密切注意情勢的變化。"],["賴委員惠員：所有的情境，不管昨天川普又加了90天的緩衝期，跟75個國家一樣，這個也是在你的掌控中嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們只會想說可能他會比較放鬆一點，但是他說的3個月，這個我們沒辦法掌握。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你也認為在未來，就是在4月2號他講了32%以後，引起了很大的震撼，他會再放鬆也是在你的預估範圍內？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是覺得整個的……因為事實上川普總統他也沒有想到美國本身的股市會跌得那麼慘，他還說他不是故意的，所以很顯然他也沒有想到。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，你認為他……美國的股市不會跌得那麼慘，川普不會認為他的……"],["楊總裁金龍：他一開始的時候，要實施之前，他就說不會啦，華爾街不會有問題。但是他實施了以後就連續跌了好幾天，我的觀察認為他也緊張了。"],["賴委員惠員：他很緊張？"],["楊總裁金龍：他也緊張了，所以才會有這3個月的緩衝期。"],["賴委員惠員：可是我不覺得他很緊張，他好像是……"],["楊總裁金龍：如果他沒有很緊張的時候，他不會做這樣的改變。"],["賴委員惠員：好。那你的臺幣會升值還是會貶值？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛還是一直在講，事實上匯率很難現在就說它要升、它要貶，事實上是由市場來決定的。"],["賴委員惠員：由市場來決定？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：那在升值、貶值的時候，你會不會調整你的外匯存底？你的工具在哪裡呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得調節本身就是用外匯存底來調節，所以我們這一次的報告裡面有講到4個因應措施，我們因應措施的主要目的就是要來穩定我們的匯率。"],["賴委員惠員：好。那我可以再請教你一下嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：這個外匯存底的話，你覺得你會調整的是美債，還是你的美股或你的美金？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為說要調整，當然我想我就很密切的注意情勢的發展，不過剛剛因為我……"],["賴委員惠員：這三個在外匯存底裡頭，哪一樣是占了你的外匯存底最多？"],["楊總裁金龍：你說哪個？"],["賴委員惠員：就是你的美債、你的美股，還有你的美金。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們主要的還是美債。"],["賴委員惠員：美債多？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：所以中國拋售大量的美債，這也是一個攻防？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，市場也都在說現在有一些國家開始在拋美債，不過我有一個數據跟委員報告，事實上之前沒多久，美國10年期公債是4.9%將近5%，那後來它就一直跌、跌、跌，跌到多少？跌到將近4%。那最近市場在宣傳，因為大家都在拋美債，所以美國公債的價格在下跌……"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過到昨天它是4.332%，我們如果把4.332%跟將近5%的4.9%來比較的話，這個顯然還是很低啊！"],["賴委員惠員：還是很低？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，還是很低。"],["賴委員惠員：所以這一切都還是在你的掌控中？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得到目前為止我們還是密切注意。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝，謝謝你的自信，也讓我們感受到一邊一國，我們跟中共的經濟……其實臺灣跟中國的經濟是分開的，謝謝。你剛才講的話，今天股市應該會好一點。"],["楊總裁金龍：希望。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝。","再來是經濟部次長，次長，我想總統整體回應川普的關稅裡頭有特別講到他有5大策略，這5大策略的話，其實他就是要建置一個臺灣+1的臺美最新合作布局，我想經濟部也應該快速的下鄉，就是在各行各業的產業裡頭，你們去聽，然後解決什麼樣的問題，是不是有啟動了這樣子的計畫？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，我們其實現在已經開始啟動產業的座談，我想院長跟總統也都會在本週分別陸續到各個相關縣市的產業聚落去跟這些產業界座談，了解他們的一些心聲。"],["賴委員惠員：你看我們對美出口的主要產品，在工業的部分有鋼鐵、運輸工具、機械、石化、塑膠、運動器材還有醫療器材、一般的化學家電等這些東西，可想而知這個狀況會非常慘，不管你是32%還是10%，甚至川普會改來改去，現在只是有一個90天喘息的機會。看到我們的農業就更慘了，這個讓我們更害怕，蝴蝶蘭、茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀、鱸魚……這些魚牧產業其實也面臨到很大的困難，所以我在這裡要問一下農業部次長，昨天在本席的選區裡頭的蘭花生物產業，我陪農業部長下去座談的時候，我才知道這個園區幾乎就是掛掉了，完全沒有機會，他們的訂單全部被退了，蝴蝶蘭的訂單全部被退了，所以問題不是我們在金融上補助他們多少，甚至是要給他們降稅，還是要免收他們的租金，其實他們面臨到的是一個長期競爭力的問題。你看，荷蘭到美國去設秧苗場、種苗場了，結果我們臺灣還是處在這個地方，怎麼辦呢？"],["杜次長文珍：我非常謝謝委員，委員長期關切農業，特別是對蝴蝶蘭園區這一塊很關心，也有給我們支持和建議，謝謝昨天經過這樣的座談，其實我覺得這是雙向的，第一個是，我們跟業者講我們有哪些措施，第二個是，我們真的有聽到業者跟我們講，還有哪些是可以繼續做的。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["杜次長文珍：農業不是只有成品，不是對那一株蘭花有影響，從瓶苗、從栽培、從整個的……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講，一株蘭花……"],["杜次長文珍：那是很長的過程。"],["賴委員惠員：從種培到到末端要18個月。"],["杜次長文珍：沒錯。"],["賴委員惠員：這18個月的訂單全部都被抽回，他們本來的訂單是排了3年，所以我覺得這個跨國的蘭花國家隊，你們一定要快速去組成。"],["杜次長文珍：是，要從長計議，而且要趕快布局。"],["賴委員惠員：不然從此以後，臺灣的蝴蝶蘭在全世界就不見了。"],["杜次長文珍：要提早布局，要趕快處理這些事情，謝謝委員提醒。"],["賴委員惠員：我國的稻米呢、我的雞呢、我的豬呢？這個有沒有什麼樣的辦法？次長，有沒有提出什麼樣的辦法？你看美國農產品的零關稅對臺灣農業有很壞、很壞的影響，你也知道臺灣人愛吃米，臺灣人吃最好的米已經吃習慣了，未來如果美國米進來以後，臺灣米怎麼辦？我們臺灣的雞肉、豬肉怎麼辦？次長，我相信你在農業上是權威，也非常清楚知道臺灣豬跟美國豬吃起來的那個口感當然是完全不一樣的。如果未來臺灣全體，也就是我們國人的味蕾要做很大的轉變的話要怎麼辦？有沒有比較好的想法？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，其實不管是怎麼樣的談判結果，就農業部的立場，保護我們的農業絕對是優先的，這是第一點；第二點，其實美國的米跟美國的豬現在也都有到臺灣來，但是消費者的選擇還是喜歡臺灣的米、喜歡臺灣的豬……"],["賴委員惠員：次長，你不要這樣講，現在進口豬跟雞的數量是非常少的，你要去面對問題，不可以講這樣的話！"],["杜次長文珍：所以將來在選擇的時候，在談判上面，一定有一些是我們一定要保護的。"],["賴委員惠員：那你準備好了嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：我想這就是我們的立場，一定要優先保護對我們最好的狀況。"],["賴委員惠員：怎麼樣保護呢？"],["杜次長文珍：關稅談判本來就沒有說一定要全部變0%，而是從0%開始，不是全部變0%。"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你說，在未來的談判裡頭，我們的農業一定是被犧牲的，絕對是被犧牲的，其實它就是併入國家一併來討論的，你這個半導體顯然看起來就有人道政策的保護，現在就是農業最慘啊！你沒有發現到，站在這裡的就是你最慘嗎？你沒有感受到嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：也謝謝委員支持，我想其實整個行政團隊跟談判團隊都知道臺灣農業很重要，會盡量來爭取。"],["賴委員惠員：是，所以我希望農業部在兩週內針對被川普關稅影響到的農產品，還有生產的聚落，提供給我們更多詳細的評估，還有分析的資料，這個資料非常重要，就是你出口的額度，還有你的占比，還有你競爭的對手國，這個其實都是我們必須快速去彙整的，不然在這一波裡頭，我覺得臺灣的農業也會消失掉，這個是我非常擔心的，謝謝。"],["杜次長文珍：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：我想，在這裡針對電子零件的組合，經濟部長，我在這裡要特別提醒你，其實臺南是電子零組件、金屬製品、化學製品、塑膠及橡膠成型品這幾個產業非常重要的生產基地，所以我們需要你們更多的協助、更多的幫忙，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好的。"],["賴委員惠員：在這裡還特別提到，我想美國經濟的解放日，連洗產地的問題川普都注意到了，你看他連企鵝也不要，這些都沒有人住的地方，他也不放過，所以我們不要低估了川普這一次運用各種手法要讓美國再次偉大的計畫，這都必須讓我們要加緊處理各種問題，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委的質詢。","下一位有請李彥秀委員質詢。","向委員會報告，等鍾佳濱委員質詢完畢，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 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非常的痛心為什麼呢就是因為這幾天關稅說真的它本來就是一個長期的談判但是我們可以看到在我們這一邊即使是在立法院不斷的有人用這樣的一個方式去炒作這樣的一個政治議題甚至可以看到有人說什麼這個在野省下當時多少的預算就是為了當救命的基金"},{"start":42.395,"end":57.175,"text":"叫台積電連電要來這邊報告啦等等之類的我覺得這種政治操作其實說真的讓我們這些正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去這一點是讓我覺得非常的難過那更不要講說在外面很多政治人物就一直在講說我們要跟中國市場融合"},{"start":58.076,"end":77.219,"text":"我記得國民黨的總召都還在講說這一個是不是要中國的遊客趙少康其實也有講一樣的話我現在比較擔心的事情就是說我們現在是要出去談判的人我們也是雖然現在也有90天我們要出去談的時候對於我們這個國內的聲音其實不是很一致"},{"start":78.139,"end":105.1,"text":"雖然現在執政黨像剛剛這個前面都有提到不管是這個全美的21倡議啦還有剛剛定宇我們有提到的就是說目前我們總統的這個談話啦投書啦這些事情我們本來是穩定的但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿啦這一群人呢等於一直在講說我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題啊這一件事情呢會形成我們很大的一個loss因為不管怎麼講今天有兩件事情第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決"},{"start":105.88,"end":133.476,"text":"所以呢我看到總統的投書有特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購但第二個問題最重要的就還是經濟安全那經濟安全這件事情呢目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅一二五那如果說我們今天決定假設有國內有一直很大的一個聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起這會是我們非常大的危機因為這就等於你沒有去加入這一個非紅的供應鏈等於你不重視經濟的安全"},{"start":134.136,"end":159.005,"text":"所以我從這一個我去年就已經問過部長經濟部部長那我在總質詢也有再問過一次那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關還有跟算能科技有關的這個洗產地的問題那這邊呢我想問的就是這一個不過在這個之前我還要再講一下就是我覺得這是一個核心問題我覺得一定要去注意就是這個去年這一個呢也是陳韻甄委員跟陳學生委員他們呢提了這個離島建設條例裡面的第六項"},{"start":162.577,"end":180.927,"text":"他有提到說這一個呢中國的這一個呢人民法人團體機構資金物品商務勞務或服務進出離島自由貿易示範區有沒有然後呢他的許可條件與程序呢等於呢由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定這就是一個息產地的一個規定"},{"start":182.068,"end":207.325,"text":"等於是說我們現在要防止習產地我等一下要持續的重點就是要怎麼去防止但現在是有人不斷在開後門用這樣的一個方式我們先不要講人員的管理人員的管理光是我的附中草案就已經被擋了44次然後還有我們的關鍵技術我在我的兩岸條例的修正裡面我們關鍵技術還有關鍵的基礎人員要怎麼去做管制這個都已經被擋這個就算了離島建設條例是直接開後門"},{"start":208.266,"end":230.824,"text":"那這個是一個危機所以現在除了我們要擋下這個危機之外因為畢竟這個我記得陳玉正委員跟陳學生委員並沒有在這個被公民團體罷免的名單裡但無論如何這個法案是有可能會去被推行的有可能是國民黨想要通過的而這個就會造成危機你在談判的時候結果裡面的人跟你講說我們現在台灣準備要討論這個離島建設條例我們準備要讓離島中國的公司進來不用受到審查中國的人進來不用受到審查"},{"start":237.91,"end":260.888,"text":"那這樣的話要怎麼去做對外的談判所以呢這個剛剛我看前面馬文君委員其實也有提到說什麼這個我們現在到底這個南向到哪裡去啦或什麼之類的我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候真的必須要具備一般的知識我們台灣現在呢可以看到這個紅線的部分是我們對中國的投資是不斷地在下降我們對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升從20"},{"start":263.831,"end":286.193,"text":"18、19年開始我們對於東協也開始往上升我們對於美加末開始往上升對於中國跟香港開始下降這跟現在有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係這是這89年以來我們政府最重要的一個大政策而這個政策一直都在推行當中所以台積電今天去赴美投資也就是只不過是這樣的一環但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作我看到經濟部是有挺住啦"},{"start":286.573,"end":301.495,"text":"但這個政策操作就是在講說台積電都已經去美國了為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類的沒有這是這八九年以來我們政府一貫的政策就是我們必須要去風險化我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題"},{"start":302.637,"end":319.315,"text":"那現在的這些漏洞呢除了我們要擋下這個藍白現在可能想要去主推這些有的沒的法案之外我認為有一個關鍵就是我們現行的規定的習產地有沒有辦法擋下來所以我看一下像這個是這個原產地證明書及加工證明書的管理辦法"},{"start":321.016,"end":343.78,"text":"這個我看署長這個副署長或者次長都可以看一下在這個第二款因為他說貨品加工或製造這邊我們先不講技術先講最終貨品它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的重要製程前面這個附加價值率是有公式的所以既然有公式的話你就一翻兩瞪眼企業也好遵循你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講說我們根據這個來認定什麼叫做MIT"},{"start":346.881,"end":360.537,"text":"所以其產地的問題怎麼去擋下但後面有這個叫做特定貨品已符合貿易署公告那這個就變成有一個空間變成說他可以去認定那當然這個有空間有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事"},{"start":361.778,"end":376.312,"text":"所以我現在想要問的事情就是說如果我們今天這九十天之內因為看起來美國非常重視稀產地那現在有這個也不算是後門就算是有個行政的彈性在這邊但這個彈性別人可能就會質疑說你這個重要製程你的認定標準是什麼我們這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下說"},{"start":383.058,"end":402.44,"text":"那這個洗產地的疑慮很明顯台灣是沒有的所以不知道看是次長還是副處長針對這一點就是這一個我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中如果說這個是需要機密會議再討論或者說對外談判先不要講出來的話我們可以另外再安排沒有關係但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以"},{"start":402.5,"end":427.334,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題實際上呢我們從今年的二月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定我們有做對自中國進口的這個產品做監測首先看它的這個金額進口的金額還有進口的量是不是有異常同時呢我們也是跟相同的產品去跟蘇美"},{"start":428.715,"end":454.794,"text":"的這個部分的去做勾結任何有問題的話我們就會去了解這個實際的狀況那如果未來廠商有違反息產地的這些相關的規定的話根據貿易法我們可以給處罰最高可以罰到300萬單筆甚至呢我們可以停止他這個進出口的資格所以這個機制呢其實現在已經是在進行了"},{"start":455.014,"end":474.886,"text":"那我這樣聽起來的話 金流算是一個重要的認定標準金流的異常那除了金流的異常之外 我在想的事情就是因為貨品這邊呢 可能會比較容易那我之前在總質詢的時候 我就有在問這個貿易法第13條那裡面有這個 我講前兩個就好戰略性高科技貨品出口跟這個軍用兩用貨品技術出口管制清單"},{"start":475.766,"end":504.495,"text":"那因為我記得好像是昨天還前天剛好在國科會他們有一個相關的討論然後有一個美國商務部的這個官員是他已經做了三十幾年三十年了他已經退休了他有來台灣做一個內部的這個演講但是在國科會那裡那他就有講到一件事情就是說他認為貨品相關的就像剛剛這個次長講的可以有一些標準出來那有標準出來的話你根據什麼標準這樣你可以去對外說你看我們這邊並沒有息產地的問題但他說有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾就是技術"},{"start":506.216,"end":523.318,"text":"比如說晶片因為他說技術現在進展得太快了所以他說以前美國商務部就是說他們一直在思考一件事情就是他們內部有專業團隊而這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊指的是那個技術就是他對半導體特別了解所以他可以看得出來有沒有問題"},{"start":524.119,"end":547.806,"text":"所以像之前輝達其實像美國現在技術它已經有一個很高度的管制那輝達為了要不符合那一個所謂的高標準它還要降低它的那一個晶片然後再出口到這個中國去所以台灣現在在這個部分就是說我們對於這樣的一個團隊其實沒有說要求一定要在經濟部裡面但是不管是在國安的團隊裡面還是在國科會裡面這個方向現在是否有"},{"start":548.487,"end":576.637,"text":"是有關於技術的部分我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術現在總計有32項那這個部分呢包括了相關的行政部門我們都有跨部會的一個機制在討論那貿易署的經濟部的部分因為最主要是貨品的出口管制所以在科技的部分我們跟國科會還有其他的單位都有固定的在做討論如何防範台灣的高科技外流"},{"start":577.517,"end":604.884,"text":"那這邊我覺得還有兩個細項就是說我們在跟國科會有一定的討論那國科會這邊在內部我看到他們裡面內部這些政府相關的這些他的智庫他有提出一些建議這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的除了這個技術它的更新要更快之外因為我覺得速度真的很重要就像我去年在質詢的時候那時候就發現華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上所以我就說這個速度太慢了那技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快這是第一點"},{"start":605.584,"end":631.6,"text":"第二點就是人流啦就是說我們剛剛有提到金流的異常現在有提到技術要怎麼外流但人會帶著技術走嘛所以人要怎麼做就是說今天在什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景的審查之外什麼樣的行為我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為你就已經預設你就有可能是在export就deemed export就是預設你可能會把技術帶出去然後做相關的管制那這個部分我是有先針對這幾個條文"},{"start":633.781,"end":652.66,"text":"還有國安法相關的條文要做出一些修正但這個可能也要等到國科會提出一些願板那我在總質詢的時候其實有提到說這個願板要趕快出來那現在畢竟你看說我們現在是90天嘛這90天之內如果我們能夠更把這些跟經濟安全有關的法案願板出來迅速討論通過的話我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助啦"},{"start":655.663,"end":662.117,"text":"是的好那這個這個我可能就已經沒時間問了而且但是我最後一個問題問一下這個民企司長不好意思"},{"start":671.518,"end":691.192,"text":"因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調,就是圓屋這件事情,還有對於北約的態度。那民主黨跟共和黨還是會有一些分歧。因為以前我們在外交上面就一直提到說要怎麼去做這些溝通交流。我覺得我們外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好,組織的部分也是。"},{"start":691.952,"end":706.797,"text":"那公眾的部分呢喬爾會雖然有幫忙但我覺得主力應該在外交部那現在等於說我覺得現在世界各國民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走在台灣也是這個樣子那目前我們現在對於這一個不同黨派的這個溝通策略分頭併進的狀況如何"},{"start":708.581,"end":728.511,"text":"我們當然是說對於這個像我們重要的友邦當然是說他們所有的這個不同的這個黨派我們都會有所接觸那麼我們尤其是說當然我們不可避免還是跟執政的這個團隊有更多的這個互動但是我們也沒有說這個在野的就不溝通"},{"start":729.711,"end":751.17,"text":"但是現在外交部的一個跟溝通,跟民眾的,像剛剛委員所提到的,我們的形象的形塑,遇到一個很大的問題,就是櫃院凍傷我們的相關預算。有一個海外的傷到腹的。等於是完全沒有的時候,其實在外管上面進行相關的工作非常的困難。"},{"start":751.75,"end":779.41,"text":"那尤其是在一些地方其實在我們的外交擴展上面可能是有一些這個比較自愛難行的地方所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通但是這個事情因為大院把這個刪減掉後我們真的進行上面非常非常的這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講除了組織之外人民的溝通很重要因為人民他態度一旦轉變政治人物必須要跟著做所以我們對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣相關的費用然後"},{"start":780.331,"end":783.634,"text":"這個我們在努力看能不能立法院有些變化不好意思主席佔用時間謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部次長還有副署長，謝謝。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：你好。這個關稅的問題這幾天我覺得炒作是真的非常的多，我個人感到非常的痛心，因為關稅說真的本來就是一個長期的談判，但是我們可以看到，在我們這邊即使是在立法院，不斷的有人用這樣一個方式去炒作這樣一個政治議題，甚至可以看到有人說什麼在野當時省下多少的預算，就是為了當救命的基金，叫台積電、聯電要來這邊報告等等之類的，我覺得這種政治操作說真的讓正常的討論沒有辦法持續下去，這一點讓我覺得非常難過。更不要講在外面很多政治人物就一直在講我們要跟中國市場融合，我記得國民黨的總召都還在講是不是要中國的遊客，趙少康其實也有講一樣的話。","我現在比較擔心的事情就是，我們現在是要出去談判的人，雖然現在有90天，那我們要出去談的時候，我們國內的聲音其實不是很一致，雖然現在執政黨像剛剛前面都有提到，不管是臺美21倡議，還有剛剛王定宇委員提到我們總統的談話、投書，這些事情我們本來是穩定的，但現在有一群人等於是在扯後腿，這一群人一直在講我們跟中國站在一起到底有什麼問題，這一件事情會形成我們很大的一個loss，因為不管怎麼講，今天有兩件事情：第一個是順差的問題必須要被解決，所以我看到總統的投書也特別提到到底要做什麼樣的採購，但第二個最重要的就還是經濟安全，那經濟安全這件事情目前來講看起來就是選錯的人關稅125嘛！今天假設國內一直有很大的聲音告訴我們說要跟中國站在一起，這會是我們非常大的危機，因為這就等於你沒有加入非紅供應鏈，等於你不重視經濟安全。所以我去年就已經問過經濟部部長，我在總質詢也有再問過一次，那一次問的主要是跟淘寶有關，還有跟算能科技有關的洗產地的問題，這邊我想問的就是這一個。","不過在這之前，我還是要再講一下，我覺得這是一個核心問題，一定要去注意，就是去年陳玉珍委員跟陳雪生委員他們提的離島建設條例裡面的第六項提到，中國的人民、法人、團體、機構、資金、物品、商品、勞務或服務，進出離島自由貿易示範區，它的許可條件與程序等於由會商各離島縣政府自己來擬定，這就是一個洗產地的規定，等於我們現在要防止洗產地，我等一下要質詢的重點就是要怎麼去防止，但現在卻有人不斷在開後門，用這樣的方式，我們先不要講人員的管理。人員的管理，光是我的赴中草案就已經被擋了44次，還有我們的關鍵技術，我在兩岸關係條例的修正裡面，對於關鍵技術、關鍵技術人員要怎麼去做管制，都已經被擋，這就算了，離島建設條例是直接開後門，這是一個危機。所以現在我們除了要擋下這個危機之外，我記得陳玉珍委員和陳雪生委員並沒有在被公民團體罷免的名單裡，但無論如何，這個法案是有可能會被推行的，有可能是國民黨想要通過的，而這個就會造成危機。當你在談判的時候，結果裡面的人跟你講現在臺灣準備要討論離島建設條例，離島準備要讓中國的公司進來，而且不用受到審查，中國的人進來也不用受到審查，這樣要怎麼去做對外的談判？","我剛剛聽到馬文君委員其實也有提到，他說我們現在到底南向到哪裡去了或什麼之類的，我覺得有時候我們在討論這件事情的時候，真的必須要具備一般的知識。我們可以看到紅線部分是臺灣對中國的投資，是不斷地在下降，而對其他國家的投資是不斷地在上升，從2018、2019年開始，我們對於東協也開始往上升，對於美加墨開始往上升，對於中國和香港開始下降，跟有沒有關稅根本就沒有關係，這是這8、9年以來政府最重要的一個大政策，而這個政策一直都在推行當中。所以台積電赴美投資也只不過是這樣的一環，但這三天我看到很大量的政治操作，我看到經濟部是有挺住了，這個政治操作就是在講台積電都已經去美國了，為什麼沒有換到什麼東西等等之類，沒有，這是這8、9年以來政府一貫的政策，就是我們必須要去風險化，我們不能夠跟中國綁在一起，跟中國綁在一起就是會出問題。","針對現在的這些漏洞，我們除了要擋下藍白可能想要主推的這些有的沒的法案之外，我認為有一個關鍵就是現行規定的洗產地有沒有辦法擋下來。依據「原產地證明書及加工證明書管理辦法」，副署長或者次長都可以看一下，在第二款貨品之加工或製造，我們先不講技術，先講最終貨品的部分，它的附加價值超過35%或特定貨品已符合貿易署公告之重要製程。前面的附加價值率是有公式的，既然有公式的話就一翻兩瞪眼，企業也好遵循，你今天去跟美國談判的時候也可以講我們根據這個規定來認定什麼是MIT，所以洗產地的問題怎麼去擋下。但是後面特定貨品已符合貿易署公告的規定就變成有一個空間，也就是它可以去認定，當然有空間、有彈性本來在行政機關不是壞事，所以我現在想要問的事情是，如果我們在這90天之內，因為看起來美國非常重視洗產地的問題，現在有這個規定也不算是後門，而是有個行政的彈性在這邊。但是這個彈性可能就讓別人質疑這個重要製程，你的認定標準是什麼？這個標準如果講得夠清楚就能夠去擋下洗產地的疑慮，因為很明顯臺灣是沒有的。所以次長、副署長，針對這一點我們現在有沒有什麼好的標準慢慢在進行當中？如果這個是需要機密會議再討論或者對外談判，先不要講出來的話，我們可以另外再安排沒有關係，但是就可以跟國人公開的回答就可以。"],["江次長文若：謝謝委員的指教，委員非常關心未來有沒有洗產地的問題，實際上，我們從今年2月份就已經開始在實施相關的規定，我們有對自中國進口的產品進行監測，首先會看它的進口金額以及進口量是不是有異常。同時，我們也會將相同產品去跟輸美的部分做勾稽，有任何問題的話，我們就會去瞭解實際的狀況，如果未來廠商有違反這些洗產地的相關規定的話，根據貿易法，我們可以給予處罰，最高單筆可以罰到300萬，甚至我們可以停止它進出口的資格，所以這個機制其實現在已經是在進行了。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK！我這樣聽起來，金流算是一個重要的認定標準，除了金流異常之外，我在想是因為貨品這邊可能會比較容易，但是我之前在總質詢的時候就有提到貿易法第十三條，我講前兩個項目就好，分別是戰略性高科技貨品出口、軍用兩用貨品及技術出口管制清單，我記得昨天還是前天剛好在國科會有一個相關的討論，有一個美國商務部做了三十幾年已經退休的官員，他有來臺灣在國科會做一個內部演講。他有講到一件事情，就像剛剛次長講的，他認為貨品相關的可以有一些標準出來，有標準出來的話，根據什麼標準，這樣你可以對外說我們這邊並沒有洗產地的問題，但是有一個部分他一直覺得很困擾，就是技術，比如晶片，他說因為技術現在進展的太快了，所以美國商務部一直在思考一件事情，他們內部有專業團隊，這個專業團隊不是指經貿專業團隊，指的是那個技術，他對半導體特別瞭解，所以可以看得出來有沒有問題，就像之前的輝達，其實美國現在對於技術已經有很高度的管制，輝達為了要不符合那個所謂的高標準，它還要降低它的晶片再出口到中國。所以臺灣現在在這個部分，就是我們對於這樣的團隊，其實我沒有要求一定要在經濟部裡面，但是不管是在國安團隊裡面，還是在國科會裡面，這個方向現在是否有？"],["江次長文若：有關於技術的部分，我們已經公布了兩波的國家核心關鍵技術，現在總計有32項，這個部分包括相關的行政部門，我們都有跨部會的機制在討論，經濟部的部分最主要是貨品的出口管制，所以在科技的部分，我們與國科會以及其他的單位都有固定在討論，如何防範臺灣的高科技外流。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得還有兩個細項，你們跟國科會有一定的討論嘛！"],["江次長文若：有。"],["沈委員伯洋：我看到國科會內部這些政府相關的智庫有提出一些建議，這些建議裡面包含我剛剛講的，除了技術的更新要更快之外，因為我覺得速度真的很重要，就像我去年在質詢的時候就發現，華為其實還沒有到我們的清單上，所以我就說這個速度太慢了，技術的速度一定要比這個還要再更快，這是第一點。第二點就是人流，我們剛剛有提到金流的異常，現在有提到技術要怎麼防範外流，但人會帶著技術走，所以人要怎麼做，今天什麼樣背景的人要怎麼去做背景審查之外，還有什麼樣的行為，我看到美國現在的做法就是什麼樣的行為就已經預設你有可能是在export，就是deemed export，預設你可能會把技術帶出去，然後做相關的管制。這個部分我有先針對這幾個條文，還有國安法相關的條文做出一些修正，但這個可能也要等到國科會提出院版，我在總質詢的時候其實有提到院版要趕快出來，畢竟我們現在有90天，這90天之內如果我們能夠把這些與經濟安全有關的法案院版出來，迅速討論通過的話，我覺得這個對我們談判的空間一定會有幫助。"],["江次長文若：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我可能已經沒時間問了，最後一個問題，我問一下明祺次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為最近我們有看到美國在做一些相關的民調，對於援烏這件事情以及對北約的態度，民主黨和共和黨還是會有一些分歧，以前我們在外交上面一直提到要怎麼去做這些溝通交流，我覺得外交部對於智庫的部分真的是越做越好，組織的部分也是。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：公眾的部分僑委會雖然有幫忙，但我覺得主力應該在外交部，而且現在世界各國的民眾對於一些特定議題的想法會跟著政黨走，在臺灣也是這個樣子，目前我們對於不同黨派的溝通策略分頭並進的狀況如何？"],["陳次長明祺：對於我們重要的友邦，他們所有的不同黨派，我們都會有所接觸，當然不可避免，我們還是跟執政團隊有更多的互動，但是我們也沒有在野的就不溝通，但現在外交部與民眾的溝通，像剛才委員所提到的我們形象的形塑遇到一個很大的問題，就是貴院凍刪我們的相關預算……"],["沈委員伯洋：有一個海外的刪到負的。"],["陳次長明祺：等於是完全沒有的時候，其實在外館進行相關的工作非常困難，尤其是在一些地方，我們的外交擴展上面可能會有一些比較窒礙難行的地方，所以我們希望能夠加強跟民眾的溝通，但是因為大院把相關預算刪減掉之後，我們在進行上真的非常困難。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個也是我現在比較擔心的一件事，因為我從去年質詢的時候就一直在講，除了組織之外，人民的溝通很重要，因為人民的態度一旦轉變，政治人物必須要跟著做，所以對人民的溝通其實很需要這些媒宣的相關費用，這個我們再努力，我們再努力，看能不能立法院有一些變化，不好意思，主席，我占用了時間，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委上臺質詢。","接下來有請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160065","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160065","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97121978551b16051f0cf11452c3877738ca72c2a43b2ce79c50bbbba23be64eeb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:23:59 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請郭部長跟陳部長喂吼"},{"start":16.969,"end":37.135,"text":"兩位部長好美國總統川普宣布對等的關稅那他的這個生肖日期進入了90天的豁免的談判期那請教部長你認為你認為美國突然喊停決策的策略它的因素是什麼呢國務部長"},{"start":39.705,"end":67.655,"text":"報告委員我想這個是他們的談判的這個手段那基本上他拋出一個這個高的這部分在美國的這個有他的自己一個做法那我們只能提因應的辦法因為大家都在對這個中間可能會發生什麼樣的變異大家都有做一些這個變異那但是因為他"},{"start":68.891,"end":91.276,"text":"在4月9號我們有70多個國家跟他表示願意跟他談我相信他很難這個在短期間裡面就做出一個正確的判斷所以他願意跟這個希望跟他談的人在90天裡面談完這個我想是他一個最大的一個改變最大因素也就是說很難在"},{"start":93.057,"end":102.327,"text":"這個很短的時間做正確的判斷這是郭部長你認為他這一次的轉變我的意思就是說每一個國家跟他談之間的關係是不一樣的"},{"start":103.607,"end":132.766,"text":"所以他认为他主要还是针对中国因为中国反对他所以他就在中国加税那这样子的话他对这些其他支持他的这些国家因为跟他谈的国家当然不会说到你马上遭受到一个很大的困扰所以我想这个是他们提出一个解决的方式提出这个解决的方式就90天90天大家来慢慢谈"},{"start":133.066,"end":155.094,"text":"好所以本席也認為這當然您所說的這個也是一個談判的技巧那也是一個因素那同時也本席也認為在美國的股票裡頭跟債券市場的壓力這個應該也是成為因素之一當然很多的因素很多的變化但是我們現在得到的答案也就是進入90天的這個"},{"start":157.055,"end":163.96,"text":"豁免的談判期但是我認為我們最重要的就是我們必須要理清楚我們就是理清楚美國在談判的時候呢他們想要什麼那我方又是什麼樣的主張那美國財政部長呢貝森特他也特別說了因為在其他的國家這七十幾個國家的談判中涉及到一系列的議題包括了這個LNG交易"},{"start":186.895,"end":198.408,"text":"非關稅貿易的帳壁壘貨幣政策還有補貼等等每一個國家的量身定制是通通都會有所安排所以在這邊請教部長我們預期什麼時候可以開啟談判多久可以談那麼可否可以加速 請說明"},{"start":208.578,"end":224.436,"text":"对 国务长报告委员我认为我们的状况相对简单我们跟美国是非常友好的两个国家第二个台美在科技上面其实是完全互补的"},{"start":225.117,"end":239.893,"text":"所以他認為這個是比較好談的所以我們也在表示我們願意跟他談其實在很早就跟他講我們願意跟他談所以我認為我們應該會在第一波談判的第一波會在三十天內會談嗎"},{"start":241.634,"end":261.54,"text":"至於這個是不是30天或者60天或者90天我想美國有美國的判斷啦但是我們以我們所準備的程度我們都會我們希望在第一波我們在第一波的時候怎麼談越早談對我們越有利嘛我們在第二波的時候又要怎麼談這個我想我們有沙盤推演都有把這些情境來做分析然後做推演"},{"start":261.86,"end":279.747,"text":"昨天國防會的主委也說了他說了我們是這個優先那您今天說我們應該會在第一波那我們也希望因為越早談對我們是越有利這也是賴總統在投書彭博外媒的時候他提到"},{"start":280.527,"end":298.752,"text":"我國要將要加大對美的採購那包括了什麼 能源 工業 農業是不是要請教部長喔這個是我們的方向嗎因為昨天本席請教你的時候你說要看美國想要談什麼那我說我們也要有我們自己的主張嘛要保障我國的這個產業跟農業"},{"start":300.532,"end":314.026,"text":"對不對好所以在這樣的情況之下本校要請教是不是總統既然投書了針對於能源工業以及農業那是不是你們兩位部長會朝這個方向這樣的項目請說明經濟部會朝這個方向經濟部那農業部呢"},{"start":319.81,"end":343.299,"text":"我想農業部有非常多的品項也是用也是跟美國有高度互補所以在對互補性的這些農產品我們也會加大我們採購好 謝謝那再請教郭部長跟這個陳部長喔我們談判的方向項目我們確認那請教我們預估我們的金額會有多大的規模你們一定有沙盤推演啊 郭部長"},{"start":348.769,"end":365.925,"text":"您的意思是說我們大概有多少報告委員我想這個都一直在加大隊沒採購嘛那你的金額你大概預估會有多少大概預估啦應該我們盤點政府的部分啦大概應該有2000億美金可以談啦"},{"start":366.825,"end":390.051,"text":"兩千億美金可以談然後還沒有加上這個民間的啦政府部門大概兩千億美金就是就政府跟國營始業在未來我們可以跟他談的金額大概就是兩千億美金那這裡面是包括我們大概十年啦我們規劃十年可以買進的十年政府部門大概兩千億美金"},{"start":390.951,"end":414.619,"text":"還沒有加上民間的所以我們現在還在整合民間可能購買的金額有多少那這樣子一包去跟他談的話可能更能夠有誘因因為政府說對美的天然氣我們採購會擴大到三成這是昨天我們得到的訊息那麼是不是如此現在方向是不是如此方向應該是這樣子"},{"start":415.899,"end":426.949,"text":"方向是這樣子就是天然氣的部分會擴大到三成當然昨天你也談到阿拉斯加的這個天然氣的投資那請教郭部長還有其他能源的項目對美購買嗎請說說還是有啊還有有什麼項目呢"},{"start":432.955,"end":452.482,"text":"譬如說我們在能源有很多種科技上面的能源有一些科技的能源或者是我們有很多的我們在發電上所用的發電機這些都可以跟美國購買對 這些我們都是也擴大項目"},{"start":457.281,"end":473.388,"text":"就是我們盤點在未來十年內我們要投資的各項能源的措施包括有很多民間的這些智庫然後他們也推薦了很多新能源包括新能源"},{"start":475.288,"end":499.102,"text":"對 都有推薦讓我們做參考我們會把這些資料整合以後提供給台灣之前您也一直在說任何的新技術的能源那麼我們都採開放的態度是不是一樣這樣的立場所以這件事本下請教總統也提到在投書當中他也提到加大投資美國那他說看到電子"},{"start":500.482,"end":514.608,"text":"資訊以及資通這個通訊技術 能源和石化等這些領域的新商機那請教我們是不是要推動這些產業到美國投資請教如何的來投資 你規模又多大請教部長"},{"start":515.348,"end":543.089,"text":"國務部長報告委員我跟你講這個就是我們在調整在調整方向是這樣子但是廠商廠商願不願意對跟著這個方向這個廠商做決定是但是廠商一旦決定他們願意打國家隊然後到美國去成立一個這個可以整合的這樣的一個公司作為生產的時候我們就協助他出海落地所以這兩個方向協助他在管理上面來努力是第一個協助產業如果產業願意對"},{"start":544.83,"end":565.119,"text":"第二個如果產業還不達到的時候國營事業會鼓勵過去嗎我們有很多種方法國營事業會不會我們不一定要國營事業過去不一定要國營事業其實那個國營事業的產品去那邊沒有辦法製造再送給再銷售給美國國營事業不一定好那接下來本席要請教農業部長"},{"start":567.1,"end":581.458,"text":"非關稅貿易的這個障礙在當中呢你認為美方最在意的非關稅貿易障礙在你的這個主管範圍內你認為美方最在意的是什麼我們的立場又是什麼我想"},{"start":582.816,"end":601.713,"text":"非貿易關稅障礙裡面一個非常重要的就是我們針對某一些品項做有他的進口的額度的一個限制那以現在美國所關切的稻米的部分他們是關切稻米的關稅配額內的裡面的底價的訂定我們並沒有公開"},{"start":602.774,"end":617.037,"text":"那因為根據我們現在政府採購法我們底價是沒有公開的但是政府採購法也可以用另外一個方式我們可以採底價公開價低者得比底價越低的方式那這個部分我想我們也會做適當的調整"},{"start":618.658,"end":643.694,"text":"您做适当的调整因为总统的说法我们要跟美国是以零关税的基础来展开敞干谈判所以我们的农产很紧张在这样的情况之下甚至有学者评估台美零关税的话会我们的稻米我们的鸡肉我们的猪我们的鲜奶会冲击非常的大到时候你要怎么样去保护我们"},{"start":644.474,"end":665.791,"text":"比如說米如果零關稅它的價格比我們低然後它又有大量的多樣式的優勢那當然米商會很緊張我們的米的產業很緊張雞肉如果拿掉了關稅那它的價格又降下來那我們的知己率可能達不到50%雞農很緊張雞商也緊張那比如說我們的豬也是同樣的這個狀況同樣這個狀況那代表著如果"},{"start":672.176,"end":676.328,"text":"你會在談判的當中會將這一些的條件來鬆綁嗎"},{"start":678.035,"end":706.838,"text":"我想剛才委員所提到這些針對我們糧食安全的相關的品項的部分我想我們農業部我們會堅守我們的立場堅守立場是什麼呢會不會鬆綁我想產地的標示非常的重要安全性萊克多巴胺也非常的重要我們所有的跟美國的相關你會不會鬆綁你的立場會不會鬆綁我們的立場就是我們要穩定我們台灣的產業我們要確保我們的農民的權益在這個前提之下"},{"start":707.518,"end":721.909,"text":"我們不會讓步就是針對這樣子好一句不會讓步我給部長說明2021年進口萊豬的時候您我們的政府對台灣豬農以及消費者的承諾那這是絕對不能棄守的"},{"start":723.11,"end":743.968,"text":"棄守的社會也沒有辦法接受所以我要求一個資料一個資料也就是針對於如果零關稅我們衝擊這麼大的這些農產產業那你的具體措施要怎麼樣去保護他們你請書面資料給本席再請市長把書面資料給委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時24分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請兩位部長。"],["主席：好，請郭部長跟陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩位部長好。美國總統川普宣布對等關稅，它的生效日期進入了90天豁免談判期。請教部長，你認為美國突然喊停，決策的策略因素是什麼呢？郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個是他們的談判手段，基本上他拋出一個高的數字，這部分美國有他的作法，我們只能提因應的辦法。對中間可能會發生什麼樣的變異，大家都有做一些……但是因為在4月9日，有七十多個國家表示願意跟他談，我相信他很難在短期間裡面就做出一個正確的判斷，所以他願意和希望跟他談的人在90天裡面談完，我想這是他一個最大的改變。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最大因素？也就是很難在很短的時間做正確的判斷，這是郭部長認為他這一次的轉變。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我的意思就是每一個國家跟他談，之間的關係是不一樣的，他主要還是針對中國，因為中國反對他，所以他就在中國加稅，這樣子的話，他對其他支持他的這些國家、願意跟他談的國家，當然不會讓你馬上遭受到很大的困擾，所以我想這是他們提出一個解決的方式，拋出他們美國……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：提出這個解決的方式就是90天。"],["郭部長智輝：90天讓大家慢慢談。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，當然像您所說的，這個也是一個談判的技巧，也是一個因素，同時本席也認為美國股票裡頭跟債券市場的壓力，這個應該也是成為因素之一，當然有很多的因素、很多的變化，但是我們現在得到的答案，也就是進入90天的豁免談判期。本席認為我們最重要的是必須要釐清楚美國在談判的時候，他們想要什麼，我方又是什麼樣的主張。美國財政部長貝森特也特別說了，因為在其他的國家，這七十幾個國家的談判中，涉及到一系列的議題，包括了LNG交易、非關稅貿易的壁壘、貨幣政策，還有補貼等等，每一個國家量身定制通通都會有所安排，所以在這邊請教部長，我們預期什麼時候可以開啟談判、多久可以談，可否加速？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我認為我們的狀況相對簡單，我們跟美國是非常友好的兩個國家。第二個，臺美在科技上面其實是完全互補的，他認為這個比較好談，所以我們也表示我們願意跟他談，其實在很早就跟他講我們願意跟他談，所以我認為我們應該會是在第一波談判的group裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一波？在30天內會談嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：至於這個是不是30天、60天或者90天，我想美國有美國的判斷，但是以我們準備的程度，我們都會研判在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望在第一波。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會研判我們在第一波的時候怎麼談……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：越早談對我們越有利嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們在第二波的時候又要怎麼談，我想我們的談判小組……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沙盤推演？"],["郭部長智輝：都有分析這些情境，然後推演。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：昨天國發會的主委也說了我們是優先，您今天說我們應該會在第一波，我們也希望如此，因為越早談對我們越有利。賴總統在投書彭博外媒的時候，他提到我國將要加大對美的採購，包括了什麼？能源、工業、農業。所以我要請教部長，這個是我們的方向嗎？因為昨天本席請教你的時候，你說要看美國想要談什麼，我說我們也要有我們自己的主張，要保障我國的產業跟農業，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：大概總統有聽到你的聲音。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，總統既然投書了，針對於能源、工業以及農業，你們兩位部長是不是會朝這個方向、這樣的項目呢？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部會朝這個方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：農業部呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想農業部有非常多的品項也是跟美國有高度互補，所以針對互補性的這些農產品，我們也會加大採購。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。再請教郭部長跟陳部長，我們談判的方向、項目，我們確認，那麼請教，我們預估我們的金額會有多大的規模？你們一定有沙盤推演，郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：您的意思是，我們大概有多少？報告委員，我想這個都一直在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加大對美採購，你大概預估會有多少金額？"],["郭部長智輝：大概的預估，我們盤點政府的部分，大概應該有2,000億美金可以談。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2,000億美金可以談？"],["郭部長智輝：對。然後還沒有加上民間的，現在的意思是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政府部門大概2,000億美金？"],["郭部長智輝：就是就政府跟國營事業，未來我們可以跟他談的金額大概就是2,000億美金，這裡面包括我們規劃大概10年可以買進的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：10年，政府部門大概2,000億美金？"],["郭部長智輝：還沒有加上民間的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還加上民間的？"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們現在還在整合民間可能購買的金額有多少，這樣子一包去跟他談的話，可能更能夠有誘因。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，政府說對美的天然氣，我們採購會擴大到三成，這是昨天我們得到的訊息，現在方向是不是如此？"],["郭部長智輝：方向應該是這樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：方向是這樣子，天然氣的部分會擴大到三成。當然昨天你也談到阿拉斯加天然氣的投資，請教郭部長，還有其他能源的項目對美購買嗎？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：還是有啊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有？有什麼項目呢？"],["郭部長智輝：能源有很多種，譬如科技上面的能源，有一些科技的能源，或者是有很多我們在發電上所用的發電機，這些都可以跟美國購買。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們也都擴大這些項目，你們都有盤點？"],["郭部長智輝：我們盤點在未來10年內我們要投資的各項能源措施……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大概政府部門是2,000億元左右。"],["郭部長智輝：包括有很多民間的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民間現在還在盤點？"],["郭部長智輝：民間的這些智庫，他們也推薦了很多新能源……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括新能源？"],["郭部長智輝：對，都有推薦，讓我們參考，我們會把這一些資料經過整合以後，提供給談判辦公室……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：之前您也一直說任何新技術的能源，我們都採開放的態度，是不是一樣這樣的立場？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以接下來本席要請教，總統在投書當中也提到加大投資美國，他說看到電子、通訊技術、能源和石化等這些領域的新商機。我們是不是要推動這些產業到美國投資，如何投資，規模又多大？請教郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個就是我們在調整，方向是這樣子……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：方向就是包括總統說的電子等……"],["郭部長智輝：但是廠商願不願意跟著這個方向，這由廠商決定，但是廠商一旦決定，他們願意打國家隊，然後到美國成立一個可以整合的公司作為生產據點的時候，我們就協助它出海落地，協助他在管理上面來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以就兩個方向，第一個，協助產業，如果產業願意；第二個，如果產業還不達到的時候，國營事業會鼓勵過去嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有很多種方法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國營事業會不會？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不一定要國營事業過去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不一定要國營事業？"],["郭部長智輝：其實國營事業的產品去那邊，沒有辦法製造再銷售給美國。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國營事業不一定？好。接下來，本席要請教農業部長，非關稅貿易障礙在當中，在你的主管範圍內，你認為美方最在意的非關稅貿易障礙是什麼，我們的立場又是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我想非貿易關稅障礙裡面，一個非常重要的就是我們針對某一些品項有進口額度的限制，以現在美國所關切的稻米這部分，他們是關切稻米的關稅配額內，裡面底價的訂定，我們並沒有公開，因為根據現在的政府採購法，我們底價是沒有公開的，但是政府採購法也可以用另外一個方式，我們可以採底價公開價低者得，比底價越低的方式，這個部分我想我們也會做適當的調整，這是我想……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：您做適當的調整，因為總統的說法，我們要跟美國以零關稅的基礎展開談判，所以我們的農產很緊張。在這樣的情況之下，甚至有學者評估臺美零關稅的話，我們的稻米、我們的雞肉、我們的豬，我們鮮奶的衝擊會非常大，到時候你要怎麼樣去保護我們？比如米如果零關稅，它的價格比我們低，然後它又有大量的、多樣式的優勢，當然米商會很緊張，我們米的產業很緊張。雞肉如果拿掉關稅，價格又降下來，我們的自給率可能就達不到50%，雞農很緊張，雞商也很緊張。又比如豬，也是同樣的狀況。這代表你們在談判當中，會將這些條件鬆綁嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：剛才委員所提到的這些，針對我們糧食安全的相關品項部分，我想農業部會堅守我們的立場，就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：堅守立場是什麼呢？會不會鬆綁？"],["陳部長駿季：我們所有的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：產地標示非常重要，萊克多巴胺的安全性也非常重要。"],["陳部長駿季：我們所有跟美國相關的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會不會鬆綁？你的立場會不會鬆綁？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的立場就是要穩定臺灣的產業，確保我們的農民權益，在這個前提之下，我們不會讓步，就是針對這樣子……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好一句「不會讓步」！我跟部長說明，2021年進口萊豬的時候，我們的政府對臺灣豬農以及消費者的承諾，絕對不能棄守，如果棄守，社會沒有辦法接受，所以我要求一個資料，如果零關稅，對於衝擊這麼大的這些農產產業，你保護他們的具體措施是什麼？請你書面資料給本席，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["主席：再請部長把書面資料給委員，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員發言。鄭委員發言之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","陳超明","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","羅美玲","李坤城","許宇甄","葉元之","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長及財政部首長就「因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁畜業及關鍵產\n業競爭力之協助措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00005"}}},{"id":"160064","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160064","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712d60d94e4749a3577f179c558939ff98972c2a43b2ce79c506249bd8a06f3bcbd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:25:41 - 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這個青年的科研人才他們失去了所謂的關鍵的訓練那這個部分我們中研院怎麼看"},{"start":277.204,"end":302.815,"text":"這部分當然是對研究人員心理層面影響是不言可喻大家期待說台灣要能夠重視科研重視特別是科研的環境而不是只有表面上的數字讓科研人才在這邊覺得是受歡迎的讓他做研究能夠有足夠的經費"},{"start":304.115,"end":320.974,"text":"他想出國參訪或是甚至國內的交流也都需要有一些經費來支持那這方面假如碰到卡關狀況難免會對研究人員造成一些心理上的一個挫折感"},{"start":321.594,"end":332.337,"text":"雖然我們院方也極力來調適這方面來調度可用的經費在合法合理的範圍內我們院方已經調度經費來因應現在這樣子的狀況但是這個畢竟有限"},{"start":337.259,"end":361.331,"text":"我們來看一下因為這個畫面當中看到這是一位中研院應該是研究員他說中研院的這個經費被刪減通知正式已經發下來了那今年大家所有的研究計畫只能保守計畫勒緊褲帶了那規劃要到這個日本進行20年的長期研究在這樣子的一個氣氛之下只能終止了那這些呢就是藍白認為刪減經費對國家不會有影響的人他希望大家要醒醒啊"},{"start":365.873,"end":385.701,"text":"這個是一位中研院的研究名字我們就不透露也不透露他在哪一個這個部門去做這個研究但是他已經確定他是這麼寫的那我想大家應該都知道這個預算凍結很多人說這個凍結是不是我要解凍放在這個微波爐裡面逼一聲就好了"},{"start":386.221,"end":411.179,"text":"其實解凍的程序大概經過三個月左右的時間那我們的總預算呢是在3月21號正式公佈這總預算的部分是3月底才公佈的喔現在要解凍有這麼簡單嗎這個是其實真的要跟大家講一下喔從預算的解凍我們的程序大概是怎麼樣因為要到程序委員會去排案再交付委員會"},{"start":412.02,"end":430.425,"text":"到了委員會相關被凍結預算的部會機關你們還要交出口頭報告或者是書面報告而且要委員該委員會的同意大家討論過後同意之後才能夠來進行大到大院再交付大院"},{"start":430.765,"end":445.491,"text":"然後才能進行解凍整個所有的程序真的有那麼簡單嗎再次強調大概是需要三個月的時間現在都已經四月了我們是3月21號總預算才公佈才確定結果現在因為摯愛難行要你們馬上交出書面報告"},{"start":453.909,"end":472.595,"text":"我們是在極力努力所以我們同仁也都非常辛苦放下很多工作要趕快來彙整各種資料所以今天其實真的還是要再次提醒我們剛剛不斷的一直在強調中研院是科研人才非常重要的一個培養的平台"},{"start":473.274,"end":484.507,"text":"那麼不管是對國際上的交流還有我們人才的一個培養其實中研院扮演著非常非常重要的角色但是我們中研院被刪的預算剛剛講過了是3億多被通案凍結的預算是31%"},{"start":495.618,"end":520.746,"text":"11億這整體加起來我想這個影響層面應該是非常非常之大我們只能朝著解凍的方面去努力但是還是要請中研院我們有信心因為中研院一直以來扮演著非常重要的這個科研的一個就是培養人才的一個角色所以我們也希望我們繼續加油好 謝謝謝謝院長 謝謝主席"},{"start":522.571,"end":523.658,"text":"好 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這個黃宏威委員他一直在講造謠造謠我們現在的法律秩序如果你認為有人對你妨礙名譽毀謗可以怎麼做"},{"start":78.466,"end":93.851,"text":"當然他如果是犯罪的被害人我們按照刑務法規定他是告訴全人他當然可以向檢察官或司法檢察官提出告訴所以如果真的要捍衛個人的權益我奉勸王委員他該做的事他可以去告罰而不是在這裡一直來為難你們"},{"start":95.752,"end":121.177,"text":"而一直在為難你們我是覺得你們沒有辦法為所謂造謠不造謠尤其很多在政治上的言論的事情你們不可能在這裡做出判準你們也不可能在這裡進行評判嘛但都是就我個人而言我也是被鎖定惡霸的當事者我怎麼做具體針對北投士林已經有人明顯的來舉證他並沒有參與"},{"start":126.224,"end":145.982,"text":"罷免吳思瑤的連署但是他卻被重複的冒名而且是兩次我手上有好幾個個案因為有具體的個案我能做的就是捍衛我的權利我就具體的提告只要提告我信任司法"},{"start":147.697,"end":171.871,"text":"只要提告就讓司法在司法的制度上往前走我要說的是這樣任何捍衛自己的權益我們尋求法律的保護該提告就提告我非常反對在這裡為難官員逼迫你們回答你們難以回答的個案問題甚至他還沒有成為司法的案件因為當事人沒有提告"},{"start":172.671,"end":195.983,"text":"而我 捍衛我的法律權益 針對未造文書的匿名 冒名的連署我絕不寬待 我就尋求司法的偵辦 這是我的態度跟立場因為台灣是法治國家那回到今天的主題喔我想兩位應當都有看到全國律師聯合會的一個對外的聲明新聞稿"},{"start":197.023,"end":207.549,"text":"其實社會對於某一個個案這個違反政交法的這位中性犯罪人他居然可以潛逃這件事情當然讓人氣憤"},{"start":210.485,"end":232.584,"text":"這一粒老鼠使壞了一鍋粥賠上了司法的公信力這當然該怒啊但是權律會他們也提出該徹查還有制度上精進的一些建議但是我覺得有一句話他引用了英國前首相丘吉爾的一句話他說呢Never let a good crisis go to waste"},{"start":233.652,"end":253.046,"text":"千萬不要浪費了一個可以去檢視可以去改進的好機會要把危機化為我們制度精進的轉機所以夏業我就要問喔就一個個案來講我第一次看到劣勢裁定"},{"start":254.901,"end":272.103,"text":"你們司法院的報告書裡頭也寫說對於這樣子的用語於實務或學界並非通用啊其實你們還要容待探求它到底是什麼所以所謂的這個劣勢裁定是新生事物呢還是它是法界的陋習"},{"start":274.312,"end":292.085,"text":"第二個 從個案來檢視通案這整個事件到底是人為的疏失還是我們制度產生了非常嚴重的疏漏不要搞錯方向 就我個人認為這人為的疏失大很多啦"},{"start":293.24,"end":308.009,"text":"就是何怡婷的法官 就查她嘛 就辦她嘛所以從言究則絕不寬待 是我的第三個主張就我這三個探尋 你們要不要綜合回應一下是次長還是父命"},{"start":308.973,"end":323.826,"text":"好 謝謝委員槌尋那我想第一個問題是今天報告的那個主題那我們可以講那個結論就是說裁定跟判決不一樣它事實上在我們事務界或者說刑事訴訟法它也是允許就是說"},{"start":324.246,"end":350.702,"text":"他並沒有一定的那個格式像我們有時候羈押人的時候因為現場都很緊張嘛一個晚上值班的時候要處理一二十件那所以我們是可以直接用那個押票因為押票上面也寫了理由就是說為什麼羈押這個人還有他的案情就是跟那個裁定要求這個內容其實是一樣的所以呢在最高法院94年第十次的那個刑庭會議呢他就很明白的講就是說這樣子一個就是說"},{"start":352.002,"end":369.093,"text":"簡單的這種我們講說不是很形式很嚴格的這種格式呢這個是承認的那其實呢重點不是在說你用什麼樣的什麼格式嘛什麼形式是你必須要宣示出去就是說你要依法"},{"start":370.154,"end":397.588,"text":"成立了之後譬如說何怡婷已經平夜之後這時候內容已經裁定內容法院的決定已經成立了嘛那成立了之後依法這刑事訴訟法都規定了很清楚我們絕大部分應該是幾乎是所有的法官也都會健行就是說這樣一個裁定一定要依法或者是當庭呢把它給宣示出去然後依刑事訴訟法50條把它寫在筆錄上那或者呢是就是"},{"start":398.975,"end":416.488,"text":"如果不是先宣誓是先寫完一個裁定書原本的話那就是把它做成正本然後送達給那個當事人之後再公告就是這都是一個法定程序所以今天重點不是說這個格式有沒有寫了那個簡單而是說你要依照法定程序去做"},{"start":417.969,"end":431.971,"text":"謝謝複蜜您的說明給了您比較長的時間我並不是法界、實務界所以您的這些分享對我也是一個很大的學習但我要說的就是我覺得今天大家在質詢這個議題真的不要搞錯方向"},{"start":433.032,"end":454.505,"text":"不要搞錯方向就我個人來看因為你們的報告寫了一堆我們現在的科技的防範的制度我們110年建構的在我們士林地院樓上二樓所建置完成的這個中心科技設備監控中心軟體硬體如何如何我認為制度有了軟硬體有了而且不斷的去精進它"},{"start":459.571,"end":481.411,"text":"然後我們要做的是推廣讓更多的檢察官法官他願意他信任要採用這樣子的方式來作為羈押的替代作為對不對這是我們制度上去檢視我個人認為制度已經有了該有的軟硬體包括立法院該支持的預算還有所有的法規我們也都盡可能的健全了"},{"start":482.091,"end":509.203,"text":"但是從這個個案來檢視的話我認為就是嚴重的不當的司法的弊案的個人的行為嘛所以就是要從嚴究則絕不寬待是這個案子最最重要的事情如果就這個個案可以簡單的就這樣就這樣落跑了然後我們對於這個何怡婷的法官假設輕輕放下或是沒有清楚的去給社會一個好的交代"},{"start":510.524,"end":518.061,"text":"誰都沒有辦法接受那現在這個究責的程序進度到哪裡對於這個你們的評鑑"},{"start":521.092,"end":545.428,"text":"報告委員那個在高院在3月31號做成的自律委員會決議要移送法評那在昨天呢也將這個申請書已經送到了法律那個評鑑委員會了是我們尊重評鑑委員會最終的結果但是就這個案子如果沒有一個非常讓大家可以接受的最終的一個評判的結果我想他可能會引發"},{"start":546.909,"end":570.923,"text":"更多的對於司法公信力的懷疑或者是政治的紛擾但我還是尊重這個評議會他們最終的決定那今天的這個主題我還是再次說不要畫錯方向你們的報告都寫了好多然後我也覺得沒有錯啊你們現在做的法規面然後對於這個科技的這個監控"},{"start":573.16,"end":595.966,"text":"人為該做就是說軟體多少人執行然後你們不斷的去推廣遊說讓大家信任這個監控的系統願意去啟用然後我們的設置中心都已經建置完備了那我覺得在制度上的缺漏面我覺得相對是我可以比較放心我站在監督的角色但是對於我們法界存有多少這種"},{"start":598.049,"end":613.214,"text":"一顆老鼠屎的這種老鼠屎就要把它揪出來而且已經被揪出來的老鼠屎就一定要好好把它汰除好好把它做出一個從嚴從嚴的究責這是這個案子給我最大最大"},{"start":613.954,"end":632.726,"text":"我認為我一定要堅持的至於制度面該做的已經做了那我們就把它做更好我們就把它做更多Let's all好嗎所以呢邱吉爾的這句話千萬不要錯失了一個好的危機危機看起來是危險的是負面的但是從危機當中轉為為安"},{"start":635.328,"end":654.72,"text":"讓它成為一個制度的檢視或者是一個大家對於法律秩序的重新的理解我覺得這是有正向的意義的好 謝謝您 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那接下來我們先麻煩翁曉琳委員代理主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時21分）有請次長跟副秘。"],["主席：麻煩次長、副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["黃次長謀信：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：我就先順著剛剛鴻薇委員所垂詢的，當然現在社會非常關注罷免的議題，我高度認同罷免比照選舉，在既有的法律秩序上，有任何違反法律的事情，就應當徹查跟偵辦，但前提是該告的就由當事人去告發，而不是在這裡一直為難我們的官員們，因為今天站在我面前的，不管是司法院的代表副秘書長或是法務部的黃次長，你們都不宜針對個案來表達意見，你們更沒有辦法針對連提告、連成為案件都沒有的案子去預作一些評判，我們只能夠說，如果有告發的話，我們當然敦促我們的辦案人員要嚴格、嚴謹，用同樣的標準，毋枉毋縱。所以我剛剛說王鴻薇委員一直在講造謠、造謠，依我們現在的法律秩序，如果你認為有人對你妨礙名譽、誹謗，可以怎麼做？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，他如果是犯罪被害人，按照刑事訴訟法的規定，他是告訴權人，當然可以向檢察官或司法警察官提出告訴。"],["吳委員思瑤：就提出嘛！所以如果真的要捍衛個人的權益，我奉勸王委員該做的是，他可以去告發，而不是在這裡一直為難你們，我是覺得你們沒有辦法為所謂造謠不造謠，尤其很多涉及政治上言論的事情，你們不可能在這裡做出判準，也不可能在這裡進行評判。但就我個人而言，我也是被鎖定惡罷的當事者，我怎麼做？具體針對北投、士林已經有人明顯的來舉證，他並沒有參與罷免吳思瑤的連署，但是他卻被重複的冒名，而且是兩次，我手上有好幾個個案，因為有具體的個案，我能做的就是捍衛我的權利，我就具體的提告，只要提告，我信任司法；只要提告，就讓司法在司法的制度上往前走，我要說的是這樣。任何捍衛自己的權益，我們尋求法律的保護，該提告就提告，我非常反對在這裡為難官員，逼迫你們回答你們難以回答的個案問題，甚至它還沒有成為司法的案件，因為當事人沒有提告。而我捍衛我的法律權益，針對偽造文書的匿名、冒名的連署，我絕不寬貸，我就尋求司法的偵辦，這是我的態度跟立場，因為臺灣是法治國家。","回到今天的主題，兩位應當都有看到全國律師聯合會對外聲明的新聞稿，其實社會對於某一個個案，這位違反證交法的鍾姓犯罪人居然可以潛逃，這件事情當然讓人氣憤，這一粒老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥，賠上了司法的公信力，這當然該怒。但是全律會也提出該徹查以及制度上精進的一些建議，其中我覺得有一句話，他引用了英國前首相邱吉爾的一句話，他說：Never let a good crisis go to waste.千萬不要浪費了一個可以去檢視、可以去改進的好機會，要把危機化為我們制度精進的轉機。","所以我就要問，就一個個案來講，我第一次看到「略式裁定」，司法院的報告書裡頭也寫說，對於這樣子的用語，於實務或學界並非通用。其實你們還要容待探求它到底是什麼。所以所謂的「略式裁定」是新生事物呢？還是它是法界的陋習？第二個，從個案來檢視通案，這整個事件到底是人為的疏失，還是我們制度產生了非常嚴重的疏漏？不要搞錯方向了，就我個人認為，人為的疏失大很多啦！就是合議庭的法官，就查他嘛！就辦他嘛！所以「從嚴究責，絕不寬貸」是我的第三個主張。就我這三個探詢，你們要不要綜合回應一下？是次長還是副秘要回答？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員的垂詢，第一個問題也是今天報告的主題，我們可以講結論，裁定跟判決不一樣，事實上在實務界或者刑事訴訟法上也是允許的，就是說它沒有一定的格式，像我們有時候羈押人的時候，因為現場都很緊張，一個晚上值班的時候要處理一、二十件，所以我們是可以直接用押票，因為押票上面也寫了理由，包括為什麼羈押這個人以及案情，就是跟裁定要求這個內容其實是一樣的，所以在最高法院94年第10次刑事庭會議紀錄就很明白的講，對於這種簡單且不是很嚴格的格式，這個是承認的。其實重點不是在你用什麼樣的形式，重點是你必須要宣示出去，就是你依法成立了之後，譬如說合議庭已經評議之後，這時候裁定的內容、法院的決定已經成立了，成立了之後，刑事訴訟法都規定得很清楚，我們絕大部分，應該是幾乎所有的法官也都會踐行，就是這樣一個裁定一定要依法或是當庭把它給宣示出去，然後依刑事訴訟法第五十條規定把它寫在筆錄上。如果不是先宣示，而是先寫完一個裁定書原本的話，那就是把它做成正本，然後送達給當事人，之後再公告，這都是一個法定程序。所以今天的重點不是這個格式有沒有寫得太過簡單，而是你要依照法定程序去做，那……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒錯，謝謝副秘的說明，給了您比較長的時間。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，感謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我並不是出身法界實務界，所以您的分享對我也是一個很大的學習。但我要說的就是，我覺得今天大家在質詢這個議題時，真的不要搞錯方向，因為你們的報告寫了一堆，說什麼現在科技防範的制度，110年在士林地院二樓所建置完成的科技設備監控中心其軟體、硬體如何如何，就我個人來看，我認為制度有了，軟硬體有了，而且不斷的去精進它，然後我們要做的是推廣，讓更多的檢察官、法官信任且願意採用這樣的方式來作為羈押的替代作為，對不對？這是我們制度上要去檢視的。我個人認為制度已經有了，該有的軟硬體，包括立法院該支持的預算，還有所有的法規，我們也都盡可能的健全了，但是從這個個案來檢視的話，我認為就是嚴重的不當的司法弊案的個人行為嘛！所以「從嚴究責，絕不寬貸」是這個案子最、最重要的事情，如果就這個個案，可以簡單的就這樣落跑了，然後假設我們對於這個合議庭的法官輕輕放下，或是沒有清楚地給社會一個好的交代，誰都沒有辦法接受！現在這個究責的程序進度到哪裡？對於這個，你們的評鑑……"],["王副秘書長梅英：高院自律委員會在3月31號作成決議要移送法評，那在昨天也將這個申請書送到法官評鑑委員會了。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們尊重評鑑委員會最終的結果。就這個案子，如果沒有一個讓大家可以接受的最終評判結果，我想可能會引發更多對於司法公信力的懷疑或者是政治的紛擾，但我還是尊重評議會最終的決定。至於今天的這個主題，我還是再次說：「不要畫錯方向！」你們的報告都寫了好多，我也覺得沒有錯，你們現在做的法規面，對於科技監控，人為該做的就是軟體、多少人執行，你們不斷地推廣、遊說，讓大家信任這個監控系統並願意啟用，然後設置中心都已經建置完備了。我覺得制度上的缺漏面，相對是我可以比較放心的，我是站在監督的角色，但是對於法界存有多少「一顆老鼠屎」的這種老鼠屎，就要把他揪出來，而且就已經被揪出來的老鼠屎，就一定要好好把他汰除，好好把他從嚴究責，這是這個案子我認為我一定要的最大堅持。至於制度面，該做的已經做了，我們就把它做更好，我們就把它做更多，that's all，好嗎？所以邱吉爾的這句話，「千萬不要錯失了一個好的危機」，危機看起來是危險的、負面的，但是從危機當中轉為維安，讓它成為一個制度的檢視或者是大家對於法律秩序的重新理解，我覺得這是有正向的意義的。好，謝謝您。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來先麻煩翁曉玲委員代理主席，謝謝。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97123de83089dc00ffdc39fb4699fde5326172c2a43b2ce79c50d60d33a093d294555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:19:36 - 10:31:09","影片長度":"00:11:33","會議時間":"2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：\n(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)本院委員林思銘等20人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」9案：\n(一)\t本院委員鍾佳濱等18人、委員鍾佳濱等23人、委員郭國文等17人、委員吳沛憶等18人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員吳沛憶等18人提案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n(二)\t本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-10","start_time":"2025-04-10T10:19:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T10:31:09+08:00","duration":693,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[],"whisperx":[{"start":2.196,"end":11.481,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席我先請我們經濟部核次長還有農業部杜次長農業部杜次長好 梁院次長"},{"start":20.722,"end":28.286,"text":"我想今天針對川普的對等關稅我們看到一個好消息就是說他暫停90天這樣對等的關稅在這90天內都降至10%讓大家暫時鬆一口氣"},{"start":36.07,"end":47.153,"text":"那我相信政府有更多的時間籌碼跟空間可以跟美國展開這個貿易的關稅的對等的談判所以我今天就針對未來經貿的談判我國會面對的問題來就教兩位"},{"start":53.342,"end":75.82,"text":"那我們看到在對等關稅的實施後美國貿易代表署在4月8號接著就宣布10項不公平的貿易行為雖然我們台灣沒有名列其中但是報告中還是有點名台灣對美規車設置技術性的貿易障礙以及我們台灣要求落實豬肉"},{"start":77.101,"end":100.662,"text":"產品的原產地標示以及對某些美牛的產品實施反鎖檢查的做法他認為這是貿易的一個障礙會影響關稅的一個政策他美國表示反對認為這是傷害性的貿易行為所以美國公布這些不公平的貿易行為是否就是在暗示如果我們要跟美國來談判對等關稅"},{"start":103.284,"end":117.396,"text":"這些就是必須要讓我們讓步的一個地方這是第一個問題第二個對於我們美豬產地的標示對美牛的進口限制美國是要求我們要全面的解禁美國的牛肉產品"},{"start":118.357,"end":134.891,"text":"並且與基改食品可進入校園且要跟非基改食品是列為同一個分類號列美國的這相關的一個政策是否會影響我們政府為了談判成功"},{"start":135.652,"end":152.84,"text":"而修改我們或者放寬我們現行相關的限制或修改相關的規定此外對於美規汽車的關稅部分是否也會往下調整那麼依序先請經濟部何市長來回答"},{"start":154.206,"end":170.275,"text":"好那謝謝委員的提問那有關美規汽車的這個一些限制的這個部分我想這個是交通部的這個權責那我想我們也會注意到這樣的一個現象那因為談判我們"},{"start":172.061,"end":190.173,"text":"國家會有一個整體的策略所以我們也不在這裡講得太細畢竟我們還是要留一些談判的籌碼在手上市長這問題我聽起來你沒辦法回答你沒辦法回答這個權責就是說對美國汽車數量的限制這個部分"},{"start":195.776,"end":220.704,"text":"不是我們要犯關稅的問題是你的選擇關稅的部分當然我們是希望就是說盡量能夠足年是不是足年能夠來調降其實市長我的問題是說因為美國現在就是要求我們這幾個產品項目他要求我們關稅他進口進來我們要降低"},{"start":221.804,"end":248.12,"text":"所以我們的因應措施是什麼我要問你這個問題是有沒有可能就是他要求什麼我們就接受什麼他跟你講說你的汽車關稅要降低啊要放寬美規車進口到台灣的一個關稅啊是 包委員其實是委員提示的這個部分其實我們都會納入到談判的內容那容我稍微做一些保留因為這個部分確實不能在"},{"start":249.361,"end":266.746,"text":"講太多 把我們的底線掀出來我的呼籲跟要求是希望政府的談判代表不能讓美國欲取欲求我們相關的我們國家的關稅政策我們還是要還是要遵守我們各個產業的保護再請杜市長對於我剛才講的美豬美牛的一個進口我們相關的限制規定會不會做一個放寬"},{"start":279.17,"end":301.993,"text":"好,謝謝委員關心,因為其實在農產品這塊,特別是在豬肉這塊,其實要求來自原產地的國家,要不要,這是對每個國家都一樣,不是只針對美國,那其實這個目的是,第一個當然是我們台灣的豬肉,或是美國來的豬肉,加拿大豬肉,或者是西班牙豬肉,讓消費者可以看到他吃到的豬肉是哪個國家,這只是讓消費者知道,沒有..."},{"start":304.054,"end":312.817,"text":"政府是否可能會為了談判成功未來會放寬相關的限制或修改規定我們的立場你要講清楚說明白不會啦我希望不會啦我們要保護我們的個人的健康嘛"},{"start":321.739,"end":332.545,"text":"甚至我剛提到的就是基改食品可進入校園這個部分跟非基改食品他們要求必須列為同一批貨號的列序"},{"start":335.874,"end":351.207,"text":"所以這個規定我們不可能去做修改吧你要保護我們學童的安全啊這應該是衛福部跟教育部他們在商量不是 為了在談判這個都跟你們的業務相關嘛你在談判上面如果美國做這方面的要求我們應該要去堅守"},{"start":353.048,"end":378.965,"text":"我想所有的談判都是以台...這個我們現在的底線,而不是大家欲取欲求啦當然,保護台灣農業為最優先,是,謝謝接下來,這個我再請經濟部次長那個就是說,美國的...就是川普啊他8號在共和黨的全國委員會活動表示若是台積電如果不在美國設廠,就要開徵關稅100%所以,除了川普這個最新的談話"},{"start":380.886,"end":400.206,"text":"經濟部是否知悉川普是希望台積電還要再投資一千億在美國是否有要求台積電必須在未來三年內要全數移轉關鍵技術到美國經濟部你是否有完全確實的掌握台積電到美國的投資條件內容"},{"start":402.377,"end":427.272,"text":"跟我們報告就是台積電的這個全球的佈局應該由台積電這邊公司來跟對外來做宣佈我們政府這邊就針對他對外投資所以他的投資內容你現在一無所惜一無所惜他已經在公開的場合已經有宣佈他未來他宣佈他要去投資但是未來投資的內容難道1650億左右經濟部不用去把關嗎"},{"start":428.652,"end":453.826,"text":"他說要全部過去你就全部讓他過去啊跟我們報告我們有個投資省力的機制我們有個投資省力的機制當然我們會站在就是國家的產業最大利益的我想我的看法是說你們應該要做砂盤推演啦因為遇到這種關稅的問題我們即便台積電宣示說要過去美國投資要投資一千億川普還不滿意他說你要再加碼投資一千億"},{"start":454.927,"end":479.239,"text":"就欲取欲求啊所以政府面對這種問題當關稅大概今天有90天的一個暫停期所以我的意思是說你們是不是好好要去盤點如果萬一90天過後川普還是堅持我們台灣要被這麼高的一個對等關稅那我們台積電是否你們有考量有沙盤推演"},{"start":480.578,"end":492.796,"text":"可能在放行的時候他的一個未來的投審會要嚴格的把關啊而不是說他喊多少我們就給多少啊這個是不是你們應該要做沙盤推演"},{"start":494.324,"end":498.629,"text":"所以我是呼籲說政治經濟部對於台積電要不要放行這一個部分我們要審慎的考量來對應美國的高關稅的一個政策"},{"start":511.744,"end":517.809,"text":"另外我想針對這個880億的紓困預算農業部是180億經濟部是700億賴總統在4月6號也跟國人說政府已經完成盤點對美國採購農工石油跟天然氣等採購計畫也已經派員前往美國談判"},{"start":533.863,"end":561.304,"text":"今天我們看到報紙也寫我們林佳龍外交部的林部長他說台灣已經跟美國建立溝通管道談判機制正在與美方對接中期待很快就可以展開實質內容的談判我想請教兩位次長談判代表是否對於美國要求我們增加採購跟擴大投資照單全收"},{"start":564.044,"end":591.014,"text":"會這樣嗎跟委員報告我聽起來好像我們現在看到的氛圍就是普遍認為好像我們政府對於美國的他的所有的他的一個提議我們全部照單全收是跟委員報告其實我們大概有盤點一些可以對美擴大採購的一個項目那我們這些資訊也都提供給相關的這個談判的部門來對美國在談判的過程裡面當然所以政府有設下底線"},{"start":592.799,"end":607.314,"text":"有設下底線啦不可能說他講什麼我們就全部招攬全收啊當然這個我們在談判過程一定會有這樣的一個考量是所以你們現在到目前為止你們有什麼樣的考量啊你們的因應錯是什麼當然就是說我們"},{"start":608.857,"end":628.898,"text":"要符合就是要擴大對美採購的這樣的一個就是最主要是平衡的平衡貿易逆差的這個部分那我想我們大概經濟部這邊就我們所可能油氣這個部分所以對美的採購就是如果他要求我們擴大投資或者對美的相關的採購"},{"start":630.599,"end":648.231,"text":"經濟部也好 農業部也好對於他要求我們去購買他的農產品這部分你們是不是有設定一定的一個底線嘛我的問題就是這麼簡單啊當然我們把最大貿易談判代表出去但是我們基本上我們要談什麼"},{"start":650.25,"end":669.422,"text":"我們自己要的底線在哪裡完全都完全毫無所惜不知道到目前都沒有任何的措施跟委員報告因為就如同我剛跟委員說明的其實談判一定有很多的情境有各種很複雜的因素那這些情境其實也不宜在我們在這裡講得太清楚"},{"start":670.282,"end":690.59,"text":"那是不是可以給我們那個談判代表有更大的一些空間在為我們談判爭取最大的利益我想進一步責無旁貸因為這一次我們有90天的非常充裕的時間所以你們出去談判我希望能夠帶來很好的讓國人安心放心這樣的一個成果以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時19分）好，謝謝主席。主席，我先請經濟部何次長。"],["主席：經濟部何次長。"],["林委員思銘：還有農業部杜次長。"],["主席：農業部杜次長，請。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：好，兩位次長，我想今天針對川普的對等關稅，我們看到一個好消息，就是他暫停90天，對等關稅在這90天內都降至10%，讓大家暫時鬆一口氣。我相信政府有更多的時間、籌碼跟空間，可以跟美國展開貿易關稅對等的談判。所以，我今天就針對未來經貿的談判，我國會面對的問題來就教兩位。","我們看到在對等關稅實施後，美國貿易代表署在4月8號接著就宣布10項不公平的貿易行為，雖然我們臺灣沒有名列其中，但是報告中還是有點名臺灣對美規車設置技術性的貿易障礙、我們臺灣要求落實豬肉產品的原產地標示，以及對某些美牛的產品實施繁瑣檢查的作法，美國認為這是貿易的障礙，會影響關稅的政策，表示反對並認為這是傷害性的貿易行為。","所以，美國公布這些不公平的貿易行為是否就是在暗示，如果我們要跟美國來談判對等關稅，這些就是我們必須要讓步的地方？這是第一個問題。第二個，對於我們美豬產地的標示、對美牛的進口限制，美國要求我們要全面解禁美國的牛肉產品，並且讓基改食品可進入校園且要跟非基改食品列為同一個分類號列。美國這些相關的政策，是否會影響我們政府為了談判成功而修改或者放寬我們現行相關的限制或規定？此外，對於美規汽車的關稅部分是否也會往下調整？依序先請經濟部何次長來回答。"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝委員的提問，有關美規汽車的一些限制的這個部分，我想這是交通部的權責。我們也注意到這樣的一個現象，因為談判，我們國家會有一個整體的策略，所以我們也不宜在這裡講得太細，畢竟我們還是要留一些談判的籌碼在手上。"],["林委員思銘：這問題我聽起來你沒辦法回答，你沒辦法回答，是不是？你都沒有去做……"],["何次長晉滄：這個權責……"],["林委員思銘：這個是交通部的權責嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：就是說對美國汽車數量的限制，這個部分我想……"],["林委員思銘：不是，我們說要放寬關稅的問題是你的權責啊！"],["何次長晉滄：關稅部分，當然我們是希望儘量能夠逐年來調降……"],["林委員思銘：其實次長，我的問題是說，因為美國現在就是要求我們這幾個產品項目，他要求我們關稅，他進口進來我們要降低嘛。所以我們的因應措施是什麼？我要問你這個問題。有沒有可能他要求什麼，我們就接受什麼？他跟你講說你的汽車關稅要降低，要放寬美規車進口到臺灣的一個關稅。"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，其實委員提示的部分，我們都會納入談判的內容，容我稍微做一些保留，因為這個部分確實不能講太多……"],["林委員思銘：OK。"],["何次長晉滄：把我們的底牌掀出來，所以是不是容我有點保留。"],["林委員思銘：OK。我的呼籲跟要求是希望政府的談判代表，不能讓美國予取予求。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["林委員思銘：我們相關的國家的關稅政策，還是要堅守對各個產業的保護。"],["何次長晉滄：我們還是以獲得國內產業最大的利益為主。"],["林委員思銘：對，OK，好、好。","再請杜次長，對於我剛才講的美豬、美牛的進口，我們相關的限制規定會不會做一個放寬？"],["杜次長文珍：好，謝謝委員關心，在農產品這塊，特別是在豬肉這一塊，其實要求來自原產地的國家要標示，對每個國家都一樣，不是只針對美國。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["杜次長文珍：其實這個目的第一個當然是我們臺灣的豬肉、美國來的豬肉、加拿大豬肉或者是西班牙豬肉，讓消費者可以看到他吃到的豬肉是來自哪個國家，這只是讓消費者知道，沒有歧視。"],["林委員思銘：針對問題來回答。我問你政府未來是否可能會為了談判成功，而放寬相關的限制或修改規定？"],["杜次長文珍：這是讓我們消費者有知的權利，目前其實並沒有聽到說要改。"],["林委員思銘：我們的立場你要講清楚、說說明，不會吧？我希望不會啦！就是我們要保護我們國人的健康，甚至我剛才提到的，美國要求基改食品可以進入校園，而且跟非基改食品必須列為同一批貨號的號列，這個規定我們不可能去做修改吧？你要保護我們學童的安全。"],["杜次長文珍：這應該是衛福部跟教育部他們在商量。"],["林委員思銘：不是，未來在談判，這個都跟你們的業務相關。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員提醒。"],["林委員思銘：在談判上面，如果美國做這方面的要求，我們應該要去堅守現在的底線，而不是讓他予取予求。"],["杜次長文珍：我想所有的談判都是以保護臺灣農業為最優先。"],["林委員思銘：OK，謝謝。","接下來我再請經濟部次長，美國總統川普8號在共和黨全國委員會的活動表示，若是台積電不在美國設廠，就要開徵關稅100%，所以除了川普這個最新的談話，經濟部是否知悉川普希望台積電還要在美國再投資1,000億？是否有要求台積電必須在未來3年內要全數移轉關鍵技術到美國？經濟部是否有完全確實地掌握台積電到美國投資條件的內容？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，台積電的全球布局應該由台積電公司對外來做宣布，針對他們的對外投資，我們有一個投資審查的機制。"],["林委員思銘：所以他的投資內容，你現在一無所悉？"],["何次長晉滄：他已經在公開的場合宣布未來在美國會投資1,650億左右。"],["林委員思銘：他宣布要去投資，但是未來的投資內容難道我們經濟部不用去把關嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我們的把關……"],["林委員思銘：他說要全部過去，你就全部讓他過去？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們有一個……"],["林委員思銘：1,000億就1,000億，2,000億就2,000億啊？"],["何次長晉滄：我們有一個投資審議的機制，當然我們會站在國家產業最大利益的……"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想我的看法是說，你們應該要做沙盤推演，因為遇到這種關稅的問題，即便台積電宣示說要過去美國投資1,000億，川普還不滿意，他說你要再加碼投資1,000億，就予取予求。所以政府面對這種問題，當關稅……當然今天有90天的暫停期，所以我的意思是說，你們是不是要好好去盤點，萬一90天過後，川普還是堅持我們臺灣要被課這麼高的對等關稅，那麼針對台積電，你們是否有考量、有沙盤推演？可能在放行的時候，未來的投審會要嚴格的把關，而不是他喊多少我們就給多少，這個是不是你們應該要做沙盤推演？"],["何次長晉滄：好，委員的……"],["林委員思銘：我今天的問題是這個。"],["何次長晉滄：是，委員的提醒，我想我們在投資審議的過程……"],["林委員思銘：因為你有90天的籌碼跟空間嘛！"],["何次長晉滄：我們會注意。"],["林委員思銘：所以我是呼籲經濟部對於台積電要不要放行這一個部分要審慎考量，作為對美國高關稅的一個政策。","另外，我想針對880億的紓困預算，農業部是180億，經濟部是700億，賴總統在4月6號也跟國人說政府已經完成盤點，對美國採購農、工、石油跟天然氣等採購計畫，也已經派員前往美國談判，今天我看到報紙也寫外交部的林佳龍林部長說臺灣已經跟美國建立溝通管道，談判機制正在與美方對接中，期待很快就可以展開實質內容的談判。我想請教兩位次長，談判代表是否對於美國要求我們增加採購跟擴大投資照單全收，會這樣嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告……"],["林委員思銘：其實我聽起來好像我們現在看到的氛圍，就是……"],["何次長晉滄：我們都有盤點……"],["林委員思銘：普遍認為好像我們政府對於美國所有的提議全部照單全收。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們大概有盤點一些可以對美擴大採購的項目，這些資訊也都提供給相關的談判部門，在對美國談判的過程裡面，當然是爭取最大的……"],["林委員思銘：所以政府有設下底線？有設下底線吧？不可能說他講什麼我們就全部照單全收啊！"],["何次長晉滄：當然，我們在談判過程一定會有這樣的考量。"],["林委員思銘：所以到目前為止，你們有什麼樣的考量？你們的因應措施是什麼？"],["何次長晉滄：當然我們要符合……就是要擴大對美採購這樣的一個……最主要是平衡貿易逆差的這個部分，我想我們經濟部這邊，可能油、氣這個部分……"],["林委員思銘：所以對美的採購，如果它要求我們擴大投資，或者對美的相關採購，經濟部也好，農業部也好，對於要求我們去購買它的農產品這一部分，你們是不是有設定一個一定的底線？我的問題就是這麼簡單。"],["何次長晉滄：當然我們把最大可以採購的……"],["林委員思銘：貿易談判代表出去，但是基本上我們要談什麼，我們自己的底線在哪裡，都毫無所悉，到目前都沒有任何的措施？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，因為就如同我剛剛跟委員說明的，其實談判一定有各種很複雜的因素，這些情境其實也不宜讓我們在這裡講得太清楚，是不是可以給我們的談判代表有更大的一些空間，為我們臺灣爭取最大的利益？"],["林委員思銘：兩位次長，我想經濟部責無旁貸，因為這一次我們有90天非常充裕的時間，所以你們出去談判，我希望能夠帶來很好的讓國人安心、放心的成果。以上，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160061","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160061","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971249dcff38b5e69306f9600c3f6b437ac272c2a43b2ce79c5002603dcc7e4fc98c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:13:02 - 10:26:11","影片長度":"00:13:09","會議時間":"2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-10","start_time":"2025-04-10T10:13:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-10T10:26:11+08:00","duration":789,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-3-35-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":5.273,"text":"麻煩請外交部現在是次長請陳次長還有經濟部"},{"start":17.467,"end":24.232,"text":"你好謝謝次長今天我們主要大概是針對我們關稅的這個部分來做一個專報那美國總統川普他在宣布對等關稅的這個政策的時候其實搞得全世界人仰馬翻雖然現在暫時有90天的緩衝期不過川普大概也等著世界各國"},{"start":43.425,"end":47.112,"text":"去跟他書城去跟他談判所以談判大概也沒有辦法談什麼大概他的主導性還是非常強就這一點我們的談判小組已經出發了嗎"},{"start":58.487,"end":80.032,"text":"這個我們在跟美國的所有的溝通感到暢通無阻具體的這個施程我們這個還是基於雙方的誠信原則我們想是說還是有一定程度上也不便揭露的地方我們已經就像我們部長之前回覆委員的話一樣就是說我們的已經掛上好了"},{"start":80.632,"end":89.835,"text":"好 那麼我們隨時Ready可以去跟他進行這個相關的談判在等美方的時間 通知時間我們會主動 我們會很主動的來進行相關的這個準備那麼也隨時準備可以進行他有對象嘛 我們"},{"start":98.057,"end":120.649,"text":"對象就好像我們OTM所說的一樣包括美國財政部美國的商業部美國的USTR這都是我們主要的對口單位我們現在看到談判小組雖然其實我們涵蓋了國安體系、外交體系、經貿談判辦公室還有其他的業界、學界我們好像都有納入"},{"start":122.531,"end":131.345,"text":"當然他談判的這個本質上面我們有政府體系那代表的人物當然吳釗燮秘書長他已經出發了嘛這我不便透露"},{"start":137.769,"end":143.894,"text":"這個好像大家都知道啊現在是因為你該做的就算這個有什麼好不便透露的你如果可以做吳釗燮身為過去是外交部長他現在是國安會的秘書長你不用特別說他跟誰見面可是你本來就要因應那出去就出去了這有什麼好不便透露的我現在看到的是因為去年8月"},{"start":162.387,"end":166.151,"text":"吳釗燮秘書長他是跟林佳龍部長一起出去訪美他也是用比較特殊的管道那現在他已經出發可是這一次我們林佳龍部長是沒有出去的那對我們因為包括我們在美方給我們的"},{"start":182.667,"end":187.229,"text":"訊息我相信他報給就是我們的駐美的代表處其實當時是給什麼樣的資訊可以讓賴總統他說讓大家放心然後我們的卓院長讓大家安心入睡甚至民進黨的總召他都可以大剌剌的說我們大概只會10%的關稅"},{"start":205.675,"end":231.294,"text":"完全讓大家隔天一覺醒來都靜呆了所以其實我們說有史以來關係最好或者我們有掌握什麼樣的狀況顯然不是那你現在如果說像這樣的狀況之下我們要去談判已經有建議像張忠謀可以納入我們的談判的一個小組裡面有沒有可能有沒有考量"},{"start":232.279,"end":240.883,"text":"委員的意見我們都是會向內傳達當然最後變成談判的決定我們外交部是負責收集相關的資訊提出相關的好的建議剛才委員指導的相關的東西第一個我們每處都有充分掌握相關的資訊我們的資訊是完全錯誤的所以不要再拿出來談這個部分"},{"start":259.332,"end":262.235,"text":"你出來的資訊是跟大家天然地別差的太多所以我們現在講的是為了我們台灣整體的利益尤其這個關稅對我們打擊非常的大台灣的經濟高度依賴外貿我們在2023年其實我們貿易額是GDP的99%"},{"start":278.13,"end":290.218,"text":"我相信這個在座的各位都非常的清楚所以這個談判小組其實是非常重要的因為我們不希望說你到時候我們的談判小組去只是去聽然後去全盤的接收你一點談判的能力都沒有的情況之下我們現在很多國人會擔心因為以川普的個性他甚至像越南他直接去了最早他表達要零關稅"},{"start":306.148,"end":316.133,"text":"他根本覺得遠遠不足而且非常不屑所以對於我們來說我們今天談判的代表也非常的重要因為他攸關我們未來不管整體的經濟貿易或者我們未來的產業發展他都有很大的影響那既然我們在APEC的時候其實都可以請張忠謀去參加那如果這個談判對於我們來說因為第一對業界最了解的對產業界最了解的"},{"start":334.822,"end":346.01,"text":"對整個我們半導體或者其他國家整個全球的脈動很了解的非他莫屬所以其實他是一個很好的人才當然也有人建議蔡英文前總統那可是他的身份不曉得適不適合那不知道可是我們還是希望台灣可以派出最強而有力的一個談判的代表來爭取我們這一個困境的解決好不好"},{"start":360.439,"end":380.627,"text":"是,剛才委員的這個建議我們一定傳達給決策者。第二個是說,也請委員放心,就是說在關於談判上面來說的話,其實我想針對這個撤補的關稅,大概就是說我們要做好所有的功課,然後要做好所有的萬全的準備,各種的可能性。"},{"start":381.387,"end":407.18,"text":"就外交部的立場來說,我們所有的訊息都有透過各種的管道來掌握那不可否認的,因為川普總統他的談判的風格那麼很多的時候我們掌握,但是說他還是像昨天的突然宣布90天暫緩實施的時候其實很多時候可能連他的格言都不一定能夠完全掌握"},{"start":407.72,"end":423.567,"text":"那麼所以是說這個談判上面一定會有一定的彈性但是做好功課雖然川普總統他的決策因為他事先都已經預告了他昨天這個90天其實可能是比較很多人是比較意外的可是他在關稅要課徵重稅這個不是後來才講"},{"start":427.228,"end":446.261,"text":"可是我們掌握的訊息顯然是不對的所以我想沒有什麼任何理由在這裡提說我們有什麼準備而且有做功課如果有做功課而且甚至知道說他可能會對我們課這麼重的稅因為我們台積電都已經送去了他還對我們至少中國2%"},{"start":448.422,"end":450.123,"text":"我們遠遠比日本、韓國我們其他有競爭力的國家我們都比他高得多所以我們未來談判你還要再送出什麼我們已經送了台積電你又要買武器然後又要零關稅然後對於他的所有的"},{"start":464.491,"end":467.412,"text":"採購還要大力的加碼我們還能給什麼所以如果回來還是告訴我們就是這些那我覺得那還不如不要談判所以在這裡我們還是很慎重的去提醒因為今天這幾天我相信所有的部會包括經濟部現在也在然後還有其他的部會其實他牽動非常廣泛所以在這裡我們還是要提醒尤其算"},{"start":491.102,"end":500.645,"text":"外交部長不在不過我們還是希望這個部分外交部還是要掌握最大的一個能量因為其實你們應該跟美方的脈動不然你告訴國人一直以來告訴國人說我們是台美有史以來關係最好的我們都看不出好在哪裡我們吃了美豬然後我們現在他甚至可能還要求我們的標示不可以有明顯的標示那當時對我們全國人民所講的話那個"},{"start":520.931,"end":531.062,"text":"你現在智利進來的櫻桃或者其他的日本的蘋果他都很清楚的標示是哪裡來的產地啊就像我們國內要求我們的農民要履歷產地是一樣的啊那為什麼美國如果他要求我們這樣我們會妥協嗎那我覺得我們都會全力跟美國溝通經濟部講一下這個部分會不會妥協"},{"start":544.462,"end":550.767,"text":"因為這個是涉及的談判的策略所以我們一定會站在台灣產業的立場如果你今天在這裡沒有辦法對我們國家或者我們所有人民或者我們食品的安全你過去對人民的承諾你現在去談判你就要強力的要求因為這是為人民把關你今天其他的產品人家都沒有問題的他都可以標示啊"},{"start":568.582,"end":578.926,"text":"智利啊 澳洲啊 紐西蘭的起義股啊什麼大家都標示得非常清楚如果你這個沒有讓人家有疑慮你幹嘛擔心人家標示那如果應該要標示對哪一個國家都一樣所以這個部分我們在這裡提出特別的要求我們應該要把關的 應該要堅持的我們希望談判小組一定要堅持到底可不可以做到我們一定會去盡我們的盡全力去積極的爭取產業的利益"},{"start":596.974,"end":601.157,"text":"那另外我們在這裡已經提醒了另外賴總統針對這個美國關稅政策他有提出五大因應的策略那剛剛我們提到很多可是其中有一個他就是拖中入北這是好像早上有特別提出來的一個方向所以拖中入北當然就是希望重心不要放在中國大陸的這些投資那希望可以入北你們的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":627.615,"end":650.929,"text":"脫中入北的它的這個過程其實是很正面的也就是說台灣可以用自己的經濟實力來透過這個這個立足台灣同時呢要佈局全世界那我們經濟部的話會協助廠商來做全球的佈局例如呢像這些我想請教一下因為剛剛你在業務報告的時候有大概念了一下可是當時在2019年"},{"start":655.112,"end":669.125,"text":"中美貿易大戰的時候那時候政府也希望因為免於受到很大的衝擊所以台商自己本身也很清楚所以都從中國把它往外移那時候其實政府推的是新南向那現在新南向呢不適合了"},{"start":672.087,"end":674.969,"text":"你現在又要脫中入北那你過去的新南向呢新南向有什麼問題嗎好不容易供應鏈才漸漸的落實完成那個不像我們一般要搬家他那個廠房投資各方面還有人力的培訓他在一個地方如果可以安定下來"},{"start":691.698,"end":696.821,"text":"過了六年現在好不容易慢慢達成這樣你現在又有一個新的說要入北而且你入北的國家通常都是不管在人工的成本各方面的投資成本上面都是比較高的以台灣的實力或者經濟部更沒有條件去說你們政府可以給這些廠商做什麼因為我覺得你在政策上面你沒有辦法延續你必須告訴大家新南向為什麼不行了"},{"start":719.894,"end":737.009,"text":"報告委員其實除了我們台商除了去新南向國家之外,有部分有回台灣,甚至也有我們的電子產業聚落,現在也有到墨西哥。那經濟部在去年,在今年在歐洲也設立了這個投資服務中心。"},{"start":737.549,"end":740.612,"text":"因為我們認為我們要的不是投資服務中心我們要的是你政府的政策要有一貫性你過去在新南向這一個部分我現在要知道的是新南向有沒有發生什麼樣的問題因為大家已經都投資在那裡了剛剛說的墨西哥當然墨西哥以現在美國的關稅部的那種"},{"start":757.009,"end":761.732,"text":"的政策來說他可能算是比較好一點的可是他隨時在變動而且川普他現在掌理美國他隨時都在改變我剛剛提到的如果我們去投資像剛剛講到的托中入北這些北方的民主國家我們號稱的民主國家他的投資成本是很高的這對於我們整個產業是不是有利我希望可以有一個具體的數據資料再提供給本席還有我們委員好不好"},{"start":786.85,"end":786.87,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩請外交部陳次長及經濟部。"],["陳次長明祺：你好。"],["馬委員文君：次長，今天主要是針對關稅的部分來做專報，美國總統川普在宣布對等關稅政策的時候，卻搞得全世界人仰馬翻，雖然現在暫時有90天的緩衝期，不過川普大概也等著世界各國去跟他輸誠、去跟他談判，所謂的談判大概也沒有辦法談什麼，他的主導性還是非常強。就這一點，我們的談判小組已經出發了嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：我們跟美國的所有溝通管道都暢通無阻……"],["馬委員文君：暢通無阻？"],["陳次長明祺：關於具體的時程，我們基於雙方的誠信原則，還是有一定程度上不便揭露的地方，但就像部長之前回復委員的話一樣，我們已經掛上號了，隨時ready可以去跟他進行相關的談判。"],["馬委員文君：在等美方通知時間，是嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：我們會很主動地來進行相關的準備，也隨時準備可以……"],["馬委員文君：有對象嘛！我們是有談判的對象。"],["陳次長明祺：有對象，就像剛才OTN所說的一樣，包括美國的財政部、美國的商務部、美國的USTR，這些都是我們主要的對口單位。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在看到談判小組，其實涵蓋了國安體系、外交體系、經貿談判辦公室，還有其他的業界、學界，我們好像都有納入，當然在談判的本質上面，我們有政府體系，代表人物吳釗燮秘書長已經出發了嘛？"],["陳次長明祺：這個我不便透露。"],["馬委員文君：這個好像大家都知道啊！這個有什麼好不便透露的，吳釗燮過去身為外交部部長，他現在是國安會秘書長，你不用特別說他跟誰見面，可是你本來就要因應，出去就出去了，這有什麼好不便透露的？"],["陳次長明祺：我們現在……"],["馬委員文君：我現在看到的是，因為去年8月吳釗燮秘書長跟林佳龍部長一起去訪美，他也是用比較特殊的管道，現在他已經出發，可是這一次林佳龍部長是沒有出去的，包括美方給我們的訊息，就是我們的駐美代表處當時是給什麼樣的資訊，可以讓賴總統說讓大家放心，然後卓院長說讓大家安心入睡，甚至民進黨總召都可以大剌剌地說我們大概只會有10%的關稅，結果讓大家隔天一覺醒來完全都驚呆了。其實我們說現在是有史以來關係最好的時候，或者我們有掌握什麼樣的狀況，顯然不是，如果在這樣的狀況之下我們要去談判，已經有建議張忠謀可以納入談判小組裡面，有沒有可能、有沒有考量？"],["陳次長明祺：委員的意見我們都是會向內傳達，當然最後面的談判決定，外交部是負責蒐集相關的資訊，提出相關好的建議，而剛才委員指導的相關東西，第一個，我們美處都有充分掌握相關的資訊，也適時地傳達……"],["馬委員文君：我們的資訊是完全錯誤的，所以不要再拿出來談這個部分，因為你們出來的資訊是跟大家天差地別、差得太多。我們現在講的是，為了臺灣整體的利益，尤其這個關稅對我們的打擊非常地大，臺灣的經濟高度依賴外貿，在2023年我們貿易額是GDP的99%，我相信在座的各位都非常清楚，所以這個談判小組是非常重要的，因為我們不希望到時候我們的談判小組只是去聽，然後全盤接收。在一點談判的能力都沒有的情況之下，現在很多國人會擔心，因為以川普的個性，甚至像越南，它直接去了，最早它表達要零關稅，但他根本覺得遠遠不足，而且非常不屑，所以對於我們來說，我們談判的代表也非常重要，因為這攸關未來整體的經濟貿易或者未來的產業發展，它都有很大的影響。","既然我們在APEC的時候都可以請張忠謀去參加，如果這個談判對於我們來說非常重要，因為第一，對業界最了解的、對產業界最了解的、對整個半導體或者對其他國家、整個全球脈動很了解的非他莫屬，所以其實他是一個很好的人才，當然也有人建議蔡英文前總統，可是他的身分不曉得適不適合，這不知道，可是我們還是希望臺灣可以派出最強而有力的談判代表，來爭取這一個困境的解決，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：是，剛才委員的建議我們一定傳達給決策者。第二個，也請委員放心，關於談判上面，其實我想針對川普的關稅，大概就是我們要做好所有的功課，然後要做好所有萬全的準備及各種的可能性。就外交部的立場來說，我們所有的訊息都有透過各種的管道來掌握，不可否認的，因為川普總統的談判風格，雖然很多時候我們有掌握，但是像昨天突然宣布90天暫緩實施，其實很多時候可能連他的閣員都不一定能夠完全掌握。所以在這個談判上一定會有一定的彈性，但是做好功課大概還是最基本的。"],["馬委員文君：雖然川普總統他昨天這個90天的決策，可能很多人是比較意外的，可是他在關稅上要課徵重稅，這個不是後來才講，因為他事先都已經預告了，我們掌握的訊息顯然是不對的，所以我想沒有任何理由可以在這裡說我們有什麼準備，而且有做功課，如果有做功課，甚至知道他可能會對我們課這麼重的稅，因為我們台積電都已經送去了，他還對我們課重稅，只少中國2%，我們的稅率遠遠比日本、韓國其他有競爭力的國家都高得多。所以我們未來談判，你還要再送出什麼？我們已經送了台積電，還要買武器，然後要零關稅，對於他的所有採購還要大力的加碼，我們還能給什麼？所以如果回來還是告訴我們就是這些，我覺得那還不如不要談判。","在這裡我們還是要很慎重的提醒，因為這幾天，我相信所有的部會包括經濟部，還有其他的部會，其實它牽動得非常廣泛，雖然外交部長不在，不過我們還是希望在這部分外交部還是要掌握最大的一個能量，你們應該掌握美方的脈動，不然你們一直以來告訴國人說，現在是臺美有史以來關係最好的時候，我們都看不出好在哪裡。我們吃了美豬，現在他甚至可能還要要求我們不可以有明顯的標示，當時我們對全國人民所講的話，現在智利進來的櫻桃或者日本的蘋果，都很清楚的標示產地，就像我們要求國內的農民要有履歷產地是一樣的，美國如果要求我們這樣，我們會妥協嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：這我們都會全力跟美國溝通，我們也希望……"],["馬委員文君：經濟部講一下，這個部分會不會妥協？"],["江次長文若：因為這涉及談判的策略，所以我們一定會站在臺灣產業的立場……"],["馬委員文君：什麼叫談判的策略？你過去對人民有關食品安全的承諾，你現在去談判就要強力的要求，因為這是為人民把關，今天其他的產品，人家沒有問題的，他都可以標示啊！來自智利、澳洲、紐西蘭的奇異果什麼，大家都標示得非常清楚，如果沒有讓人家有疑慮，你幹嘛擔心人家標示？如果應該要標示，對哪一個國家應該都一樣。所以這部分我們在這裡提出特別的要求，我們應該要把關的、應該要堅持的，希望談判小組一定要堅持到底，可不可以做到？"],["江次長文若：我們一定會盡全力去積極爭取產業的利益。"],["馬委員文君：我們在這裡已經提醒。另外，賴總統針對美國關稅政策提出了五大因應策略，剛剛我們提到很多，其中有一個就是「脫中入北」，這好像是早上特別提出來的一個方向，所謂「脫中入北」大概就是希望重心不要放在對中國大陸的投資，希望可以入北，你們的看法怎麼樣？"],["江次長文若：脫中入北的過程其實是很正面的，也就是臺灣可以用自己的經濟實力來立足臺灣，同時布局全世界，我們經濟部會協助廠商來做全球的布局，例如……"],["馬委員文君：我想請教一下，因為剛剛你在業務報告的時候有大概唸了一下，可是在2019年中美貿易大戰的時候，政府也希望免於受到很大的衝擊，所有台商自己也很清楚，所以都從中國往外移，那時候其實政府推的是新南向，那現在新南向呢？不適合了？你現在又要脫中入北，那過去的新南向呢？新南向有什麼問題嗎？好不容易供應鏈才漸漸的落實完成，那個不像我們一般搬家耶，廠房、投資還有人力的培訓，它在一個地方如果可以安定下來，過了6年現在好不容易慢慢達成，你現在又有一個新的想法，說要入北，而且你要入北的國家不管在人工、成本各方面的投資成本上都是比較高的，以臺灣的實力或經濟部更沒有條件去說，你們政府可以為這些廠商做什麼，因為我覺得在政策上你沒有辦法延續，你必須告訴大家新南向為什麼不行了。"],["江次長文若：報告委員，其實我們台商除了去新南向國家之外，有部分回臺灣，我們的電子產業聚落甚至也有到墨西哥的，經濟部今年在歐洲也設立了投資服務中心，因為我們認為……"],["馬委員文君：我們要的不是投資服務中心，我們要的是政府的政策要有一貫性，我現在要知道的是新南向有沒有發生什麼樣的問題，因為大家已經都投資在那裡了。剛剛說的墨西哥，當然墨西哥以現在美國的關稅政策來說，它可能算是比較好一點的，可是川普現在掌理美國，隨時都在改變，我剛剛提到如果我們去投資，像剛剛講到的脫中入北，這些北方的我們號稱的民主國家，投資成本是很高的，這對於我們整個產業是不是有利，我希望可以有一個具體的數據資料提供給本席還有所有委員，好不好？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員仁）：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。","接下來由沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160060","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160060","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97125bbb723125561b62f179c558939ff98972c2a43b2ce79c506bec4195852848de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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請"},{"start":369.091,"end":395.85,"text":"吳委員好我是那個民主所的所長周玉慧那我今年剛上任四月剛上任我很高興能夠在這裡跟您澄清一件事情就是我們今年會有兩本就是一本是關於工作的就是我們終於要把它出書了那另外一本呢就是剛剛您有提到的就是我們的原住民的培訓的那個計畫我們也會再出一本第二本專書所以呢我們就是在朝著這方面努力那至於您說的我們能夠朝重出出版"},{"start":398.072,"end":420.895,"text":"我們也會朝這方面努力的 謝謝好 謝謝所長那在這裡就是提出這樣的一個因為中研院是我們最高的一個學術單位機構那研究機構所以我很希望中研院不要忘記在這個原住民成為學門這一件的路上"},{"start":421.616,"end":447.734,"text":"中研院可以幫助我們扮演一個很好的角色那最重要的就是從過去他者觀點的這些研究一百多年來幾十年來都沒有關係到現在開始這幾年我們越來越多原住民我族觀點的一個研究那中研院的學者在這個當中怎麼樣把過去的他者跟現在的這樣的一個怎麼樣去透過研究方法"},{"start":448.314,"end":465.652,"text":"透過這樣的一個方法學能夠把它整合出一個更新更完整的東西更前進的東西我想這個是中研院一個責無旁貸的一個責任那希望我們一起來努力院長好 謝謝好 謝謝那謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":436,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：好，有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：伍委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長早。你應該很清楚在原民會，有一個建構原住民族教育文化知識體系的中長程計畫。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：計畫期間是從110到114年，剛好今年是一個階段的結束，我在3月17日有詢問國科會參與原民會的原住民族知識體系計畫的情形，國科會主委表示沒有在進行這計畫，但是我有在中研院的業報看到，你們有持續參與這計畫。"],["廖院長俊智：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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補頓輸頓 大家現在朝野同心我們共赴國難 對不對共體時艱結果沒有想到總統府的副秘書長竟然還在大造謠破壞團結我看這個消息來源應該不是經濟部吧他昨天公開上節目"},{"start":69.377,"end":78.92,"text":"他講啊立法院減淚了中小跟新創企業的科技應用砍了兩億我請署長跟你報告來 署長有嗎"},{"start":89.728,"end":108.222,"text":"報告委員 這個昨天我們也是接到相關的訊息他只是想說這個預算的一個討論過程我們也有說明說這樣子的一個過程當中最後在中小企業相關的預算也收到我們各黨派朝野各委員的一些支持那有被刪減的部分是屬於統三的部分"},{"start":109.002,"end":133.933,"text":"就是在你的這個科目清清楚楚嘛中小跟新創企業的科技應用這個編的18億多嘛一毛錢都沒有刪這總統府的副秘書長顯然對立法院的這個預算審查非常的不清楚第一個 當初為什麼會提要刪減 第二個更重要喔這個溝通過程 這個為什麼後來會撤案因為你們也很努力嘛 對不對"},{"start":135.305,"end":149.053,"text":"報告你們都有來溝通啊但是報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員 報告委員"},{"start":165.885,"end":172.417,"text":"法定人數好不好18億18億部長是就這個案子很清楚的"},{"start":175.953,"end":203.673,"text":"柏定 柏定 其實一張造謠就造了四筆你的預算啦你經濟部你這麼大對不對他鎖定了你的中小新創屬啦他提了四筆預算 我今天就很清清楚楚跟他講他這四筆預算都是有問題 而且他完全不了解立法院整個運作過程第一個 要提刪減跟凍結 當然有理由 這個要看案流嘛第二個 他也忽略了 他不曉得你們 欸部長你們來溝通署長都來辦公室都溝通過嘛"},{"start":206.004,"end":229.592,"text":"一個案子為什麼會來一個測案那不是只有看上面蓋了一個測案那是一個經過溝通的一個過程那經過經濟部的這個努力他等於抹淚你們的努力他連這個都搞不清楚啊就是你們來溝通我們剛開始是說可能做得不夠好或者要做些改善所以要刪減嘛對不對啊你們來溝通你們說會做好嗎"},{"start":231.536,"end":259.094,"text":"所以第一個他們總統府完全不了解整個預算的這個過程第二個他們也忽略了你們這個努力跟我們溝通的過程這個案子就清清楚楚本來要3.2億的經過大家溝通完說這個我們會好好做所以這個案子就撤掉了這是第一筆好來我們再看第二筆一樣是你這個單位的這筆預算叫做經濟部中小跟新創企業署的"},{"start":260.751,"end":285.897,"text":"中小新創企業發展變成3億4千多萬這個本來要 本來是要減去8億多的嘛那經過你們的努力來溝通針對他們的提案理由 我們會去處理嘛所以這8億多 一毛錢 一個月都沒有刪啊 對不對今天 對 對 所以都沒刪嘛"},{"start":287.073,"end":312.874,"text":"他昨天公開造謠說這個錢被刪掉了一個2億元一個10倍後面他還提了一個第三個還有一個凍結案32億的這個預算就是你們這個中小跟新創企業發展向下的強補助費32億他說我們本來要凍20這經過大家溝通啊凍結有它的理由啊凍結希望你提出一些改進嘛"},{"start":314.172,"end":333.291,"text":"阿部長跟署長你們來辦公室討論完之後委員會說好那我們達到你們確定會把它做好所以這個凍結案就沒有凍結20%也沒有阿結果他竟然在媒體上面公開講說我們刪了10多億凍結了3億多這都說白刪嗎沒有啦 報告委員他是提統刪啦沒有造謠啦"},{"start":340.024,"end":360.762,"text":"我想這一部分大家認知上面的界定就是請委員也能夠了解你嚴重誤會 你是在幫他掩護還是嚴重誤會統三是另外的錢嘛統三是另外的錢 現在講的是這個預算的科目都清清楚楚企業發展還有科技應用 這跟統三有什麼關係"},{"start":363.035,"end":381.598,"text":"你說的桶山是另外的部分現在就針對他認為他只提桶山對嘛所以他認為他嚴重的錯誤所以說第一個他對預算不清楚嘛第二個他不曉得為什麼會提立法委員為什麼會提這個案子他來看案由嘛第三個他要看我們溝通的過程嘛"},{"start":382.878,"end":411.749,"text":"我們已經溝通好了所以才會測案啊一般總會出現測案如果溝通無效我們沒有感受到你的誠意沒有感受到你為人民是要解決問題的這個就不會測案了嘛大概是肯定大家要肯定經濟部的努力肯定立法委員提出要幫人民勘緊荷包而且要解決問題嘛結果他沒有從這邊不一樣的思考所以他不只嚴重誤會嘛最後才說他是誤解那我今天要問的好我們把他的誤會跟他的誤解對立法院不了解我們今天把它講清楚了"},{"start":412.574,"end":416.34,"text":"因為我要問啊他造謠資料來源是你們嗎?為什麼講的是你們?"},{"start":420.489,"end":445.635,"text":"沒有嘛對不對他是就那個統三後的結果來說明這件事情時段不一樣時空不太一樣這個委員我想這個也不是說他在造謠啦我想每個人對一件事情的認定可能會有時差有時差啦譬如說我們現在來討論昨天以前的事情"},{"start":446.095,"end":468.773,"text":"那跟今天的情境就會有很大的差異嘛齁 古年常常在說32%的事情啊 現在就沒有 現在變10%嘛齁 我想這是時間的問題啦 請這個委員可以了解啦所以那個總統府的副秘書長 這個張端涵還活在時空背景完全不一樣 他還活在過去那過去一個我們這麼努力"},{"start":469.834,"end":492.319,"text":"這麼努力已經撤他的案子他竟然還拿出來講時空錯亂了嘛第二個我今天要講的是他嚴重嚴重的他是閉門召集還是對立法院的不了解還是造謠所以我們很清楚的我們很清楚博定你一定要幫他圓一個地方你一直在講統三我先跟你講一下博定你不要一直把統三掛在這裡他講的這四筆都是你經濟部跟統三無關的預算啦"},{"start":494.827,"end":519.374,"text":"你等一下再詳細看這四個我剛剛已經列給你聽了這四筆跟統三都沒關係所以我們會非常嚴正的不是只有譴責我們要求總統府要求總統府要更正要道歉那今天我也更進一步的問了經濟部的你們不是供應者嘛對不對這是他自己閉門召集的嘛所以他更應該進一步的趕快要澄清要道歉那一樣喔"},{"start":520.612,"end":546.352,"text":"一樣喔 以前都是一條龍狩猎喔總統府講完 或者部會首長講完之後他們下鄉就開始講了喔你們以後被問到你們下鄉被問到 你們幫我們解釋清楚喔不要讓人民以後被誤解 好不好被誤導謝謝委員好我請到 請到農業部長好 可能要加快好 加快 謝謝加快問 委員長委員長 我知道這幾天很辛苦 你都下鄉了啦我問你這個 現在我們的農漁民啊"},{"start":551.018,"end":565.496,"text":"看起來蠻緊張的啦你昨天你有感覺嗎 對不對你跟他們在座談這個過程他們說啦這個零關稅啊衝擊會非常大養殖協會的歷史上在那邊說哇 只有聽到零關稅啊很多人嚇到"},{"start":567.396,"end":589.374,"text":"嚇得要死那你在跟他們溝通的過程裡面我相信你們接到他們很多的很多的聲音了養殖協會理事長在這裡說他說啊不要講零關稅關稅我們稍微降一點點肌肉這個進口商啊就會大量的這個解禁產業少的關稅保護以後會措手來不及措手不及養殖協會理事長這位老朋友啊潘連柱跟他說"},{"start":590.782,"end":617.364,"text":"他說雙邊談判不能夠犧牲農民假如真的是零關稅進來那對整個養雞跟養豬會一敗塗地另外講到一個重點就是我現在要特別問你的美國他們在要求要把美豬進口的產地就是美國要拿掉對不對要把瘦肉精成分要拿掉對不對這個你會讓步嗎政府不會讓步吧"},{"start":618.813,"end":640.898,"text":"我跟委員報告就農業部主管的部分包括整個產業上面來講我們未來跟美國任何的一個談判絕對是會保障我們產業的穩定發展確保農民的一個權益這是一個大前提在這個大前提之下才會去談後續的一個關稅的調整那關稅的調整也一定會考慮到"},{"start":643.143,"end":658.622,"text":"雙贏的一個局勢就是說我們有些產品是美國進來是我們是沒有什麼生產的像黃小玉很多部分都是從美國進來的他可以協助我們降低一些成本所以我們在談判的時候不會犧牲農民這是一個非常大的一個前提"},{"start":659.878,"end":685.216,"text":"現在就是總統宣布了從零關稅開始談嘛是所以我們農移民現在都緊張啦你說看得出來這個都是很大咖的這個協會的理事長都出來說嘛養豬協會對不對我也跟他們也講過了總統所講的零關稅開始不是說所有東西都零關稅然後總統跟院長也一直強調很多東西都是農移民優先所以在關稅的談判過程中"},{"start":687.317,"end":709.618,"text":"絕對不只有農產品在談所有的貿易產品都會在談但是我們農業本身一定因為兼具有糧食安全的責任所以我想大家都認知到這一點而且這點有高度的共識我想我們一起努力來做這方面的事養殖協會的理事長邱石恩一直在講不要講零關稅啦稍微降一點點那個整個雞肉市場那個影響就很大了所以要"},{"start":710.279,"end":724.766,"text":"要挺住啦,我是覺得要幫我們農民民要多爭取,這是第一,好不好?要爭取,不只不要零關稅,就很多關稅不應該動的就不要去動它了,對我們衝擊太大,好不好?另外,我剛剛特別講那一點就是他們美國,我知道美國一直有壓力"},{"start":726.84,"end":745.077,"text":"美豬的這個產地還有瘦肉精的這個要拿掉這個你要挺住喔這是嚴重影響到我們健康跟食安沒有我剛才我跟委員報告剛才我在接受訪問的時候我也強調了就是我們的所有的很多產品都有原產地標示不是只針對美國也不是只針對美國的豬肉"},{"start":746.838,"end":759.303,"text":"那原產力標是一個重要的就是讓消費者知道他的吃的東西是來自於哪個國家這是讓消費者吃的權利這是我想我們的態度是一致的是用這樣的方式"},{"start":761.353,"end":782.022,"text":"馬上馬上所以部長美國那邊是有壓力一直要把這個拿掉對不對把原產地這個拿掉還有瘦肉精這個拿掉我想他們我們現在所看到的是他們的貿易障礙裡面的報告那是一個官方的一個報告我想大家都所以是壓力很大啊所以我今天才會問了三次要挺住啊我們會堅持嘛對不對"},{"start":782.962,"end":810.822,"text":"對 我想我們一定會配合政府的整個政策去捍衛整個農民的權益跟確保產業的發展這是一個大前提跟大原則這影響到我們的健康跟食安喔要挺住好不好我們我相信全民跟立法院都會認可啦好不好我們一方面現在就是一方面就是美國當然會開他們的清單出來可是哪些地方我們不能讓特別是健康跟食安我絕對不能讓好不好挺住 好 大家謝謝好 好 來 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時10分）先請經濟部的郭部長跟中小及新創企業署的李冠志署長。"],["主席：請郭部長跟李署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長好。面對川普高關稅的海嘯，大家都很努力，包括部長、署長、大家，現在朝野同心，我們共赴國難、共體時艱，結果沒有想到總統府的副秘書長竟然還在大造謠，破壞團結，我看這個消息來源應該不是經濟部吧！他昨天公開上節目講，立法院減列了中小及新創企業科技應用，砍了2億，部長，有這個事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請署長跟你報告？"],["張委員啓楷：好，署長，有嗎？"],["李署長冠志：報告委員，昨天我們也是接到相關的訊息，他只是說這個預算的討論過程，我們也有說明這樣的過程當中，最後中小企業相關的預算也受到我們各黨派、朝野各委員的一些支持，有被刪減的部分是屬於統刪的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：這個科目清清楚楚，中小及新創企業科技應用編了十八億多嘛，一毛錢都沒有刪，總統府副秘書長顯然對立法院的預算審查非常不清楚。第一個，當初為什麼會提要刪減？第二個更重要，就是這個溝通過程，為什麼這個後來會撤案？因為你們也很努力，對不對？包括你們都有來溝通啊！"],["郭部長智輝：但是報告委員，這個是去到統刪，被統刪刪掉的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦，部長，請看一下提案，請看一下提案內容，它直接講經濟部的中小及新創企業署，就是你這個署，你管的這個署啦！這個署有一筆預算叫做中小及新創企業科技應用，編了多少錢？部長，你有看到嗎？18億。部長，這個案子很清楚，其實他昨天造謠就造了4筆你的預算，經濟部這麼大對不對？他鎖定了你的中小及新創企業署，他提了4筆預算，我今天就很清清楚楚的跟他講，他這4筆預算都有問題，而且他完全不了解立法院整個運作過程，第一個，要提刪減跟凍結當然有理由，這個要看案由嘛；第二個，他也忽略了，他不曉得你們……部長，你們來溝通，署長都來辦公室溝通過嘛，一個案子為什麼後來會撤案？不是只有看上面蓋了一個「撤案」，那是一個經過溝通的過程，經過經濟部的努力。部長，他等於是抹滅你們的努力，他連這個都搞不清楚啊！就是你們來溝通，我們剛開始是說可能做得不夠好，或者要做一些改善，所以要刪減，對不對？你們來溝通，你說你們會做好，所以第一個，總統府完全不了解整個預算的過程；第二個，他們也忽略了你們的努力跟我們溝通的過程，這個案子就清清楚楚，本來要刪減2億，經過大家溝通完，然後說這個我們會好好做，所以這個案子就撤掉了，這是第一筆。","我們再看第二筆，一樣是你這個單位的，這筆預算叫做經濟部中小及新創企業署的中小及新創企業發展，編了三十四億多，這個本來是要減列八億多，經過你們努力來溝通，針對他們的提案理由表示會去處理，所以這八億多一毛錢都沒有刪啊！對不對？所以都沒刪嘛！他昨天公開造謠，說這個錢被刪掉了，一個兩億多、一個18億，後面他還提了一個，第三個還有一個凍結案，32億的這個預算，就是中小跟新創企業發展項下的獎補助費32億，他說我們本來要凍20%，這經過大家溝通啊！凍結有它的理由，凍結是希望你們提出一些改進嘛！部長跟署長來辦公室討論完之後，委員認為，好，我們達到你們確定會把它做好，所以這個凍結案就沒有凍結了，20%也沒有啊！結果他竟然在媒體上公開說我們刪了十多億、凍結了三億多，這都在說謊嘛！我現在問的……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！報告委員，他是提統刪啦！沒有造謠啦！我想這一部分大家在認知上面的界定，就是請委員也能夠了解……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你嚴重誤會，你是在幫他掩護還是嚴重誤會？統刪是另外的錢嘛！統刪是另外的錢，現在講的是這個預算科目都清清楚楚啊！企業發展，還有科技應用，這跟統刪有什麼關係？你說的統刪是另外的部分，現在是針對……"],["郭部長智輝：這是他認為，他只提統刪。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！所以他認為，他是嚴重的錯誤嘛！所以，第一個，他對預算不清楚嘛！第二個，他不曉得為什麼立法委員為什麼會提這個案子，他來看案由嘛！第三個，他要看我們溝通的過程嘛！我們已經溝通好了，所以才會撤案啊！要不然怎麼會出現撤案？如果溝通無效，我們沒有感受到你的誠意，沒有感受到你為人民在解決問題了，這個就不會撤案了嘛！那就是肯定大家，要肯定經濟部的努力……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，這是兩個時段嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：肯定立法委員提出要幫人民看緊荷包，而且要解決問題嘛！結果他沒有從這邊……"],["郭部長智輝：這兩個是不一樣的時間。"],["主席：對嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：所以他不只嚴重誤會嘛！所以我才說他是誤解，那我今天要問的，好，我們把他的誤會跟他的誤解、對立法院的不了解，我們今天把它講清楚了！第一個，我要問，他要造謠，資料來源是你們嗎？為什麼講的是你們？有來問過嗎？沒有嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，他是就統刪後的結果來說明這一件事情啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你又在說統刪……"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是時段不一樣、時空不太一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我想這個也不是他在造謠，我想每個人對一件事情的認定可能會有時差，譬如說我們現在來討論昨天以前的事情，跟今天的情境就有很大的差異，昨天還在講32%的事情，現在就沒有了，現在變10%，我想這是時間的問題啦，請委員可以了解。"],["張委員啓楷：所以總統府副秘書長張惇涵還活在時空背景完全不一樣的時候，他還活在過去，過去我們這麼努力，已經撤掉的案子，他竟然還拿出來講，時空錯亂了嘛！第二個，我今天要講的是他嚴重的……他是閉門造車，還是對立法院不了解？還是造謠？所以我們很清楚……"],["郭部長智輝：我想不是，這個不能這樣……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你只要幫他圓一個地方，你只要講統刪，我先跟你說一下，部長，你不要一直把統刪掛在嘴上，他講的這四筆都是你經濟部跟統刪無關的預算，你等一下再詳細看這四個，我剛剛已經念給你聽了，這四筆跟統刪都沒關係！OK，來，所以我們會非常嚴正，不是只有譴責，我們要求總統府要更正、要道歉。今天我也更進一步的問了經濟部，你們不是供應者嘛，對不對？這是他自己閉門造車的嘛！所以他更應該進一步趕快澄清、要道歉了！一樣喔！以前都是一條龍作業，總統府講完或者部會首長講完之後，他們下鄉就開始講了喔！你們以後被問到，你們下鄉被問到，你們要幫我們解釋清楚喔！不要讓人民又被誤導，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝，請回。我請農業部長一下。"],["主席：可能要加快。"],["張委員啓楷：好，加快。"],["主席：加快問。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我知道這幾天很辛苦，你都下鄉了。我問你，現在我們的農漁民看起來滿緊張的，你下去應該有感覺嘛，對不對？你跟他們座談的過程，他們說零關稅的衝擊會非常大，養雞協會理事長說光是聽到零關稅，很多人都嚇得要死。你在跟他們溝通的過程裡面，我相信已經接到他們很多的聲音了，養雞協會理事長說不要講零關稅，關稅稍微降一點點，雞肉進口商就會大量解禁，產業少了關稅保護以後會措手不及！養豬協會理事長，這是你的老朋友，潘連周先生說雙邊談判不能夠犧牲農民，假如真的是零關稅進來，整個養雞跟養豬產業會一敗塗地。另外還說到一個重點，就是我現在要特別問你的，美國要求要把美豬進口的產地──美國要拿掉，對不對？要把瘦肉精成分拿掉，對不對？這個你會讓步嗎？政府不會讓步吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就農業部所主管的部分，包括整個產業上面來講，我們未來跟美國任何一個談判，絕對是會保障我們產業的穩定發展，確保農民的權益，這是一個大前提，在這個大前提之下才會去談後續的關稅調整，關稅的調整也一定會考慮到雙贏的局勢。我們有些產品從美國進來是我們沒有什麼生產的，像黃、小、玉，很多部分都是從美國進來的，它可以協助我們降低一些成本。所以我們在談判的時候不會犧牲農民，這是一個非常大的一個前提。"],["張委員啓楷：現在總統宣布從零關稅開始談嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們的農漁民現在都緊張啦！你看得出來這個都是很大咖的，協會的理事長都出來講了，包括養雞協會、養豬協會，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我也跟他們講過了，總統所講的零關稅開始，不是所有東西都零關稅，總統跟院長也一直強調，很多東西都是農漁民優先，所以在關稅的談判過程中絕對不只有農產品在談，所有的貿易產品都會談，但是我們農業本身兼具有糧食安全的責任，我想大家都認知到這一點，而且這一點有高度的共識，我們一起努力做這方面的……"],["張委員啓楷：養雞協會理事長邱時恩就講了，不要講零關稅，稍微降一點點，對整個雞肉市場影響就很大了。所以要挺住，我是覺得要幫我們農漁民多爭取，這是第一個，好不好？要爭取。"],["陳部長駿季：一定會。"],["張委員啓楷：不只零關稅，很多關稅不應該動的就不要去動它了。"],["陳部長駿季：了解！"],["張委員啓楷：對我們衝擊太大，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解！"],["張委員啓楷：另外，我剛剛特別講了一點，我知道美國一直有壓力要把美豬的產地，還有瘦肉精這個要拿掉。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這個你要挺住喔！這是嚴重影響到我們的健康跟食安喔！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，剛才我在接受訪問的時候我也強調，就是我們很多產品都有原產地標示，不是只針對美國，也不是只針對美國的豬肉，原產地標示重要的就是讓消費者知道他吃的東西是來自哪個國家，這是讓消費者知的權利，我想我們的態度是一致的，是用這樣的方式。"],["主席：好。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！馬上！"],["主席：我已經給你多一倍的時間了。"],["張委員啓楷：馬上好，1分鐘就好。"],["主席：好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，美國有壓力一直要把這個拿掉，對不對？就是把原產地拿掉，還有瘦肉精這個拿掉。"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在看到的是他們貿易障礙裡面的報告，那是一個官方的報告。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我想大家都……"],["張委員啓楷：這個壓力很大啊！所以我今天才會問了三次，要挺住！我們會堅持嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：要堅持嘛！不會拿掉！"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會配合政府整個政策，捍衛整個農民的權益跟確保產業的發展，這是一個大前提跟大原則。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這影響到我們的健康跟食安喔！要挺住，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我相信全民跟立法院都會給你們靠啦！好不好？現在一方面就是美國當然會開他們的清單出來，可是哪些地方我們不能讓，特別是健康跟食安，我們絕對不能讓，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：挺住！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","下一位請楊瓊瓔楊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","陳超明","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","羅美玲","李坤城","許宇甄","葉元之","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長及財政部首長就「因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁畜業及關鍵產\n業競爭力之協助措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00005"}}},{"id":"160058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971228ad1a39fa725e0f803d2cc4ed61730772c2a43b2ce79c504cbb1eeebf50ae7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:06:26 - 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嗆徐小新委員"},{"start":168.855,"end":195.166,"text":"後來被大家就舉國化然啊怎麼會有這麼囂張的這樣的已經潛逃出去還可以用臉書來嗆立法委員後來他只好關閉臉書啦其實他嗆的不是立法委員他嗆的是我們的政府他嗆的是我們的司法司法尊嚴掃地所以我請問一下我們幾位長官我剛才講的從鍾文智 陳啟玉"},{"start":196.707,"end":213.858,"text":"郭聲敏 朱國榮 林秉文都是短短的一兩年發生的事情他不是十年前發生的事所以請問一下我們的院檢 我們的警方到底出了什麼問題誰可以給我回答市長這麼多的案子"},{"start":221.721,"end":241.686,"text":"我知道周文智當然他的責任在院方這個是比較明確的很明確你們也做了處置可是這麼多案子你們給社會什麼樣的交代呢各位報告這涉及到法律面跟實務面執行面的問題在法律面的部分的確除了羈押制度之外其他的替代處分我們必須要強化"},{"start":242.826,"end":263.797,"text":"譬如說我們今天的主題 羈押的替代處分是以電子監控這法例面我們具備之後 實務執行面必須要檢察官法官他要多多的使用這些羈押替代處分所以我們把科技設備 科技相關的措施把它優化之後 讓檢察官法官他願意使用他是一個科技輔助被告 避免他逃亡的方式那市長我請問一下 我剛才講的這些當時我們有沒有用電子監控"},{"start":268.359,"end":283.073,"text":"跟我們報告有些事像陳菊的個案檢察官在申請後來是院方是沒有准科技監控所以我的意思就是說我說我們今天是有檢討就是我們電子監控這個制度是在的工具也都在的"},{"start":284.053,"end":304.159,"text":"只是不管是檢方或不管院方他要不要使用他即便使用的時候他什麼時候給他解除了解除的程序出現什麼樣的問題我想今天我們要討論的是這一部分可是我要說的是我們對一般的小老百姓老實講我不知道欸有時候我看到的我就認為就是政府啊怎麼讓精英犯罪那麼容易逃跑啊我認為的就是司法單位啊"},{"start":309.401,"end":337.663,"text":"所以這方面我們已經發函通靈我們全國的檢察官在符合羈押的要件之下當然要申請羈押如果當法院不支持的時候我們要依法來提醒綱告那相關的第一代處分我們在審查中審理中都要積極的主張好 所以未來如果院方不願意採取電子監控或者在中間的過程裡面突然的解除了電子監控檢方一定會有正面積極的動作是嗎"},{"start":339.844,"end":359.705,"text":"當然我們剛剛已經跟委員報告在審理中我們已經邀請檢察官在符合特定的狀況之下要積極的主張電子監控那如果說他撤銷不撤銷或者變更我們才一定送給我們我們要積極的符合條件這要積極提及看告好那請來我們司法院蜂蜜處長可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":362.277,"end":381.19,"text":"這個部分確實就是說是否那個裁定羈押或者說使用什麼羈押那個替代處分這個部分是涉及法官那個審判那個的職權那當然就是說法官做了這樣裁定之後那就是要接受那個社會那個公平那我們司法行政端呢"},{"start":381.65,"end":401.015,"text":"就是其實這幾年來我們也一直就是加強就是有透過各種會議加強法官那個賠利就是對於這類那個案件的那個敏感度那還有就是畢竟就是說真的在符合這種就是有那個犯罪嫌疑重大或者是已經判了這個重罪之後呢"},{"start":402.27,"end":425.005,"text":"最有效的就是說不讓人跑走保全那個執行或是保全審判真的最有效就是羈押嘛再來的話他的替代處分確實使用這種科控他是有效的那所以我們這幾年呢我們也都就是鼓勵那個法官他去看看那個整個那個科控設備還有就是來參加這些那個研習讓他們了解說實際上這些是怎麼個那個運作的"},{"start":426.025,"end":447.244,"text":"對 那這幾年 鳳梅書長我跟你講這一次真的是會讓大家對於我們的司法 對於我們的法院真的大失所望所以我希望包含我們院檢之間怎麼樣來做合作我剛才講了這麼多例子有些其實有些甚至事實上在檢防也不是在院防只是對我們一般民眾來講為什麼會覺得這樣的重大的經濟犯罪就這麼容易的這個逃跑"},{"start":453.17,"end":455.4,"text":"那個我請教那個我們的次長次長是"},{"start":458.292,"end":476.402,"text":"過去重大的選舉 我們都有選舉專案不管是 很多 主要是全國性的選舉 即便是縣市長選 九合一選也是一樣那我們這次的這個罷免 事實上也是全國性的雖然不是每一個縣市所以過去我們對於選舉專案 當然有幾個重點查會選 查賭盤 查造謠 對不對"},{"start":483.766,"end":506.369,"text":"可是我覺得到目前為止我沒有看到耶而且呢我們現在很多的造謠幾乎是漫天蓋地而且是無邊際的甚至我們很多的政府高官都加入造謠的行列以來助長這個罷免好那我要問的是請問一下現在以你們所掌握的"},{"start":507.169,"end":515.957,"text":"現在在罷免已經沒有地下賭盤了有嗎這個涉及到具體個案的情節各地檢署他都去掌握了他不會報到我們法務部"},{"start":519.138,"end":541.427,"text":"我沒有問任何個案我說有關於罷免的部分有沒有出現地下賭盤了你有沒有掌握各地檢署他一定會去掌握不是我法務部來掌握各地檢署他本來就我希望你們做我不是現在沒有在問你任何個案我王輝被罷免吳思堯委員也被罷免我沒有問你吳思堯有沒有地下賭盤王輝有沒有地下賭盤我只是問你"},{"start":542.527,"end":550.592,"text":"在這次罷免裡面有沒有出現地下賭盤來助長或者試圖去影響選舉我在這邊做具體的要求因為過去我們的重大選舉都會有這個專案我剛剛講嘛查會查地下賭盤還有查造謠好 再來看現在的罷團的造謠我為什麼講已經到無法無天的狀態我自己個人這幾天啊"},{"start":571.224,"end":578.647,"text":"我也不想去新送 我也不想去說一直佔用司法資源但是呢 這個造謠已經到了極度的過分的狀態比如說假冒我的一個社群平台 假冒我的身份來發文說我就是 我是中國人 然後呢 我故意要搞亂台灣反正沒關係 把台灣搞爛了 我就可以去中國了"},{"start":596.294,"end":610.647,"text":"這個造謠這個假冒從今年初我就已經去提告然後我也澄清結果立刻這兩天再拿其他的造號繼續的來做無所謂所以現在的造謠是怎麼樣我過去我的選舉經驗算多的吧"},{"start":619.615,"end":642.149,"text":"我們過去也沒有到這樣的一個腐爛性的而且已經被澄清的 已經被那個什麼甚至已經被提告 繼續拿來 無所謂來 再來最近又跑出來說 我到市場說人家不跟我握手 我罵人家無恥我作為一個這麼久的政治人物 請問在市場 我怎麼會去"},{"start":645.13,"end":662.826,"text":"罵人家說你不跟我握手我就罵你無恥市場這麼多人啊不會引起群星激開嗎所以這樣子的文不但自己在那邊發文自己製造然後還有直接我這邊直接點名自由時報記者在凌晨深夜一點多來發這個"},{"start":666.273,"end":687.645,"text":"來發這個完全這個沒有任何事實根據 也未經查證的請問一下我王蕙薇是美國股市嗎現在可能要凌晨發文的就是川普白宮有什麼發布關稅有什麼發布 昨天最新的訊息或者美國股市怎麼樣已經到這種造謠無極限了 好再來"},{"start":689.97,"end":716.526,"text":"來 下一頁 那你以為只有王宏威碰到嗎其實還有非常非常多的 造謠的團體 比如說我們過去的葉元芝這個委員 說他服務處沒有開門這樣的 完全沒有界限的 在無法無天的造謠所以我要講的是 罷免其實形同我們的一個重大的選舉"},{"start":718.843,"end":738.434,"text":"選舉罷免 選舉罷免 互相的嘛我承認我們現在罷免有很多的一些相關的 它的法令是不足的比如說有關於政治獻金的部分甚至它的起跑日 到現在為止因為我們都第一次罷免 我們都不是非常清楚但是 既然我們都進入了二階其實就已經進入"},{"start":743.165,"end":771.505,"text":"選舉的狀況了所以我剛才講這麼多的這些造謠跟罷免所以我希望我們相關單位好 警政署為什麼也請那個警政署是對不起啊副局長是副局長副局長所以我在這邊要求的是我們選舉罷免應該要有一致性的一個標準它不應該有兩套標準"},{"start":772.29,"end":794.159,"text":"如果在選舉的時候不可以做的事情同樣罷免的時候也應該不可以做同不同意我沒有讓你用兩套標準是不是但是我知道因為我們這樣大規模罷免是我們真的是台灣第一次面臨到它幾乎已經是全國性的所以我在這邊要求我們"},{"start":795.439,"end":803.933,"text":"法務部要求我們警政署針對罷免的部分我剛說過去的選舉專案你們有加強查查我剛講說查會會選有沒有地下賭盤"},{"start":811.621,"end":835.091,"text":"這個賭博嘛 而且試圖影響選舉的結果 過去的地下賭盤其實它某一個程度都是在試圖影響選舉結果好 還有這些造謠 試圖 我們說試圖使人不當選這個是試圖使人罷免而且完全 我剛剛舉的例子 都是完全無中生有的而這些都沒有辦法處理的話 請問我們算什麼民主國家嘛"},{"start":836.087,"end":849.725,"text":"我們算民主國家嗎所以拜託我們法務部還有我們警政署針對這一次的全國性罷免請大家用這個選舉的這樣的標準來做查查好不好可以嗎 市長可以嗎"},{"start":852.2,"end":878.192,"text":"首先跟委員報告啦在法律面我們就選舉跟罷免在我們選報法他是做同樣的同等的規範所以剛剛委員所提到的散佈謠言不時來影響罷免案的通過跟不通過跟我們選舉是一模一樣的刑罰處罰並沒有差別的待遇這法律面跟委員報告那執行面的部分當然這是檢警的天職那假如說在查查賄選或罷免案都會盡全力的來執行好的謝謝"},{"start":881.547,"end":886.457,"text":"好 謝謝好 那下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":535,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長。"],["主席：請副秘書長。部長10點去開會，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長不在喔？"],["主席：請次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那就是次長。還有警政署副局長。"],["主席：副局長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員早。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：大家早安！今天我們談的是鍾文智潛逃案，這個案子引起社會極大的震撼，大家認為在臺灣犯重罪怎麼可以這麼輕易的逃跑，但是問題是只有鍾文智這一件案子嗎？過去這一年多來，我們可以看到在各個重大特別是屬於經濟性犯罪的要逃跑很容易耶！非常容易！尤其是經濟性的犯罪，而且我後來發現，洗錢洗得越多，經濟犯罪金額越大，然後逃跑越容易，你看包含臺鹽董事長陳啟昱，他也一樣潛逃，而且他在國內耶，看起來應該是在國內，可是到目前為止，從來都沒有交代，他逃亡了大概一個多月，他到底在哪裡，有哪些人幫助他潛逃，到現在對於社會沒有任何交代，他不是跑到泰國，不是跑到大陸，也不是跑到其他東南亞國家，他在臺灣，有交代嗎？沒有交代。再來，過去八八會館的郭哲敏，當然他後來是從泰國引渡回來，也是一樣啊，一億元交保，看起來一億元好像很高，對不對？對不起，對這些經濟犯罪的人根本不算什麼，他照樣潛逃出境。再來，朱國榮一樣是如此啊，棄保潛逃，然後我們起訴了這些相關的人，但是人還是跑出去了，是不是？朱國榮也是眾所矚目的經濟性犯罪的案子。再來，百億賭王林秉文跑到洛杉磯，我們還懸賞他，結果這林秉文不但跑掉而且極為囂張，還在他的臉書嗆立法委員徐巧芯委員，舉國譁然，怎麼會有這麼囂張的罪犯？後來他只好關閉臉書。其實他嗆的不是立法委員，他嗆的是我們的政府，他嗆的是我們的司法，司法尊嚴掃地。所以我請問一下幾位長官，我剛才講的鍾文智、陳啟昱、郭哲敏、朱國榮、林秉文，都是在短短一、兩年發生的事情，它不是十年前發生的事，所以請問一下，我們的院檢、我們的警方到底出了什麼問題？誰可以回答我？次長，這麼多的案子，我知道鍾文智案，當然責任在院方，這個是很明確的，你們也做了處置，可是這麼多案子，你們給社會什麼樣的交代呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這涉及到法律面跟實務執行面的問題，在法律面的部分，的確除了羈押制度之外，其他的替代處分我們必須要強化，譬如說我們今天的主題，羈押的替代處分是以電子監控，然而法律面我們具備之後，實務執行面上，檢察官、法官必須要多多使用這些羈押替代處分，所以我們把科技設備、科技相關措施優化之後，讓檢察官、法官願意使用，它是一個避免被告逃亡的科技輔助方式。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長，請問一下，我剛才講的這些，當時我們有沒有用電子監控？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，像陳啟昱的個案，檢察官在聲請後，院方是沒有核准科技監控；相關朱國榮的個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我的意思是，今天我們要檢討的，就是我們電子監控這個制度是在的，工具也都在，只是不管是檢方或不管院方要不要使用，即便使用的時候，什麼時候給他解除、解除的程序出現什麼樣的問題等等，今天我們要討論的是這一個部分。可是我要說的是，對一般的小老百姓，老實講，有時候我看到的，我就認為那就是政府啊！怎麼會讓經濟犯罪者那麼容易逃跑呢？我認為那就司法單位啊！"],["黃次長謀信：所以這方面我們已經發函通令全國的檢察官，在符合羈押的要件之下，當然要聲請羈押，當法院不支持的時候，我們要依法來提起抗告，相關的替代處分我們在偵查中、在審理中都要積極地主張。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，未來如果院方不願意採取電子監控，或者在中間的過程裡面突然地解除了電子監控，檢方一定會有正面、積極的動作，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：當然，我們剛剛已經跟委員報告，在審理中，我們已經要求檢察官在符合特定的狀況之下，要積極地主張電子監控；如果他要撤銷或者變更，俟裁定送給我們後，如果符合條件的話，我們就要積極地提起抗告。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，請司法院副秘書長，可以說明一下嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是否裁定羈押，或者是使用羈押替代處分，這個部分確實是涉及法官審判的職權，當然法官做了這樣裁定之後，就要接受社會公評，而我們司法行政端其實這幾年來也一直在加強，就是透過各種會議加強法官的培力，包括對於這類案件的敏感度。還有，畢竟在符合所謂犯罪嫌疑重大或者是已經判了重罪之後，最有效的方式，就是不讓人跑走、保全那個執行或是保全審判，真的最有效的方式就是羈押；再來是它的替代處分，確實使用這種科控是有效的，所以這幾年我們也都鼓勵法官去看看整個科控設備，還有參加相關的研習，讓他們了解這些實際上是怎麼運作的，這幾年……"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長，我跟你講，這一次真的讓大家對於我們的司法、對於我們的法院大失所望，所以我希望，包含院檢之間怎麼樣來合作，我剛才講的這麼多例子，有些問題事實上是在檢方也不是在院方，只是對我們一般民眾來講，就是會覺得為什麼這樣重大的經濟犯罪可以這麼容易的逃跑。","接著請教次長，過去重大的選舉，我們都有選舉專案，只要是全國性的選舉，即便是縣市長選舉、九合一選舉也一樣，而這次的罷免事實上也是全國性的，雖然不是每一個縣市都有，過去我們對於選舉專案當然有幾個重點，包括查賄選、查賭盤、查造謠，對不對？可是我覺得到目前為止，我都沒有看到欸！現在很多的造謠，幾乎是漫天蓋地而且是無邊際的，甚至很多政府高官都加入造謠的行列以助長罷免。我要問的是，就你們現在所掌握的，現在的罷免有沒有地下賭盤呢？有嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個涉及到具體個案的情資，各地檢署都有掌握了，並不會報到我們法務部來。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，我沒有問任何個案，我是說有關於罷免的部分，有沒有出現地下賭盤了？你有沒有掌握？"],["黃次長謀信：各地檢署一定會去掌握，不是我法務部來掌握的，地檢署本來就……"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在沒有問你任何個案，像我王鴻薇被罷免，吳思瑤委員也被罷免，但我沒有問你吳思瑤的罷免有沒有地下賭盤？王鴻薇的罷免有沒有地下賭盤？我只是問你，在這次罷免裡面有沒有出現地下賭盤，以助長或者試圖去影響選舉？我在這邊做具體的要求，因為過去我們的重大選舉都會有這個專案，我剛剛有講，查賄、查地下賭盤還有查造謠。","再來看現在罷團的造謠，我為什麼講這個，因為已經到無法無天的狀態，我自己個人這幾天下來，我也不想去興訟，我也不想一直占用司法資源，但是這個造謠已經到了極度過分的狀態，比如說，一個社群平臺假冒我的身分來發文，表示我是中國人，然後我故意要搞亂臺灣，反正沒關係，把臺灣搞爛了，我就可以去中國了。這個造謠、這個假冒，從今年初我就已經提告，然後我也澄清，結果這兩天立刻再拿其他的帳號繼續來做，無所謂！所以現在的造謠是怎麼樣呢？我過去的選舉經驗算多的吧！但過去也都沒有碰到像這樣浮濫性的，而且已經被澄清，甚至已經被提告了，卻繼續拿來造謠，無所謂！","再來，他們最近又跑出來說，我到市場時人家不跟我握手，我罵人家無恥。我作為一個政治人物這麼久了，請問在市場我怎麼會說人家不跟我握手，我就罵人家無恥？市場這麼多人，不會引起群情激慨嗎？這樣子的發文，不但自己在那邊發文、自己製造，然後我在這邊直接點名自由時報記者，在凌晨、深夜一點多來發這個完全沒有任何事實根據，也未經查證的文。請問一下，我王鴻薇是美國股市嗎？現在要凌晨發文的，就是川普、白宮有什麼發布；關稅政策有什麼發布；昨天最新的訊息；或者美國股市怎麼樣，都已經到這種造謠無極限了。","好，你以為只有王鴻薇碰到嗎？其實還有非常非常多的造謠團體，比如，過去說葉元之委員服務處沒有開門，這樣完全沒有界限的在無法無天的造謠，所以我要講的是，罷免其實形同一個重大的選舉，選舉、罷免是互相的，我承認我們現在罷免很多相關的法令是不足的，比如說有關於政治獻金的部分，甚至它的起跑日到現在為止，因為我們都是第一次罷免，都不是非常清楚，但是既然我們都進入了二階，其實就已經進入選舉的狀態，所以我剛才講的，這麼多的造謠跟罷免，我希望相關單位，包括警政署，稍後我會請警政署副局長說明。總之，我在這邊要求的是，我們的選舉、罷免應該要有一致性的標準，不應該有兩套標準，如果在選舉的時候不可以做的事情，同樣在罷免的時候，也應該不可以做，同不同意？"],["林副局長故廷：同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：我沒有讓你用兩套標準，是不是？但是我知道，因為我們這樣大規模的罷免，臺灣真的是第一次面臨到，它幾乎已經是全國性的，所以我在這邊要求法務部、要求警政署，針對罷免的部分，我剛剛說過去的選舉專案，你們有加強查察賄選有沒有地下賭盤、賭博，而且試圖影響選舉的結果，過去地下賭盤其實某個程度都是在試圖影響選舉結果。還有這些造謠，我們過去是說試圖使人不當選，這個是試圖使人罷免，而且我剛剛舉的例子是完全無中生有的，這些都沒有辦法處理的話，請問我們算什麼民主國家？我們算民主國家嗎？所以拜託法務部和警政署，針對這一次全國性罷免，請大家用選舉的標準來查察，好不好？次長，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：首先跟委員報告，在法律面，選舉跟罷免在選罷法是做同等的規範，所以剛剛委員所提到的以散布謠言或不實之事來影響罷免案的通過跟不通過，其實跟選舉是一模一樣的刑罰、處罰，並沒有差別待遇，這是法律面。執行面的部分，當然這是檢警的天職，檢察官在查察賄選或罷免案時，都會盡全力的來執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160057","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160057","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971225125dd89b5522c839fb4699fde5326172c2a43b2ce79c500f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:07:48 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總裁好 大家好我先請教一下莊部長莊部長你也知道我在媒體上有一些發言就是五千億的安定基金到底夠不夠原來的這個照我們的市值大概8.1兆大概佔比大概6.1現在73.6兆的情況底下的佔比剩下0.67那國安基金已經"},{"start":44.922,"end":65.503,"text":"預計已經要進去了 雖然使用率沒有那麼高但是金額多一點 那總會大家比較安心嘛主要是安定安心嘛 對不對不一定要用到足嘛請問一下你這五千億用了多少了委員報告 五千億裡面當然有兩千億我知道 這我都知道 兩千三百我都知道你就不用講那個我們知道的common sense好不好這現在用了多少"},{"start":66.466,"end":71.83,"text":"現在用的多 這次啊 這個部份執行秘書來做我不會知道在國安基金裡面我只是其中的一個委員那你總是要知道 你要掌握狀況吧"},{"start":83.518,"end":97.197,"text":"對啊 他執行秘書也是 你是他的上司不是嗎那我上次還問你說呢 是不是要增加你也是說 要需要進行合理的評估嘛 對不對那請問一下評估了沒有"},{"start":98.125,"end":125.325,"text":"我們已經有做評估了交代了沒有那結果呢評估呢評估的結果那我們覺得在適當的時機也許會做處理吧適當的時機也許會再做調整所以現在這麼嚴重還不是適當的時機今天股市已經回彈了今天是今天剛剛楊總才跟你講說還不確定不穩定嘛那可以一下子半夜跟你講說延90天搞不好後天跟你講搞不好又變縮短成40天當然變動性蠻大的"},{"start":126.866,"end":142.693,"text":"川普就像天氣一樣變來變去難以琢磨比女人還女人對不起不好意思沒有什麼意思抱歉抱歉所以這種情況你難以預測川普天氣或許還可以預測"},{"start":143.894,"end":170.739,"text":"好 那我現在問你嘛你不變硬萬變嘛好 我現在問啊基本上你怕非理性的崩盤的情況底下非理性的崩盤的情況底下你國安精進是適時的去做多好 那彭主委彭主委你的限空令基本上是防阻過度的放空嘛那一個限空的情況底下一個要做多的情況底下你們彼此有沒有一個協調機制請問你其實我們在"},{"start":172.359,"end":197.486,"text":"資本市場的管理部分涉及到這種重大事件的時候我們當然跟各個部會之間都保持密切的溝通但是我們有各自各的職場密切的溝通的情況底下有去掌握同步要如何讓它恢復到理性跟基本面才是目標嘛當然回復到正常的市場機制是我們在金融市場監理一個最重要的目標就是這個最重要嘛所以說你才會有一個限空它才會有國安基金進場嘛那兩邊的協調你們是怎麼協調法"},{"start":200.287,"end":225.768,"text":"這當然跟委員報告其實這部分因為其實有各種狀況不同因為每次的情形看起來非常類似但是都很大的不同像今天已經漲到這種情況底下那我就問你一件事嘛原來的先空令是不是到明天結束我們的暫行措施我們上次宣布到五天那我就請教你啊下禮拜還會不會有我們會在星期六的下午宣布會不會在下午幾點"},{"start":227.109,"end":245.231,"text":"因為下午我們要先看國際的這個狀況因為我們有那個時間的落差在整個國際的盤勢的情況底下來做一個下午的宣布來看看下個禮拜是不是要延長這個限空令是的 我們現在是這樣預計的預計嘛 目前這樣預計好 那個兩位稍微那個主委你先請回謝謝"},{"start":246.973,"end":257.699,"text":"我先請教一下總裁還有包括其他的部會總裁我試著去看川普的這一種連環計是不是這樣子你站在總體經濟來說第一個先關稅戰逼著你來我這邊設廠減少貿易之間的一個逆差"},{"start":265.524,"end":288.192,"text":"第二個呢 他一來設廠的話 製造業就可以復興復興之後呢 而且同時打擊中國席產地 創造他的就業機會第三呢 採取美元貶值的方式 來打擊外匯的操縱國然後第四個呢 賺取外匯 然後減少國債把短債變成長債 有沒有可能是這種套路啊"},{"start":290.412,"end":316.387,"text":"我想Step 1就是說關稅戰這個我覺得是邏輯上是可以的是對的那製造業復興這個也是對的不過美國要製造業除非就是說是重點式的復興它不可能就是全面復興因為人力什麼的都不大一樣只要在川普的最後選區復興就可以但美元貶值拼出口這個也不見得會因為"},{"start":319.528,"end":344.726,"text":"匯率也不是說他要讓他貶值就貶值不是喔對這麼有把握對這個除非就是說就像那個什麼你現在談到匯率我們就來聊一下嘛你知道川普他基本上有一個Mirren的經濟顧問嘛那Mirren他裡頭有提到說那個美元基本上是過度被高估所以說25%"},{"start":346.907,"end":364.19,"text":"他們有一個建議就是說應該走弱勢美元應該把它貶值20%的這種說法讓整個製造業回流那這個方式如果說按照目前他在公開的檔案當中從關稅戰然後一直到美元的這種貶值有一個路徑圖喔"},{"start":365.95,"end":382.872,"text":"可是呢總裁你記不記得我們上一次討論的上上上個會期討論的時候我就請教你說對川普會走強勢美元還是走弱勢美元可是顯然這個經濟顧問的看法跟你絕然不同嘛不是嗎沒有還是川普聽你的我跟委員報告"},{"start":383.593,"end":411.463,"text":"事實上前沒有多久他的財政部長才說他們還是希望強勢美元可是他們財政部長是邊緣啊我跟你報告事實上呢匯率呢是財政部在主掌的所以說你認為他不會走弱勢美元這個當然財政部長說是強勢美元但是呢我想委員也知道就是說川普的個性就是說我說了算我說了算那沒有辦法部長說的沒有算"},{"start":413.324,"end":428.776,"text":"但是呢 一貫以來啊 我跟委員報告就是說一貫以來 美國的財政部呢 都是希望美元強勢強勢美元 所以說就你跟財政部的美國財政部溝通是走強勢美元所以這個貶值的路線不會這樣走就是了"},{"start":435.634,"end":446.285,"text":"所以我跟委員報告前財政部長Alan他都一直認為匯率匯率講說是弱勢美元或是強勢美元他都認為就是說好像這個也不大對他認為就是說匯率是由市場來決定總裁"},{"start":457.536,"end":478.015,"text":"說是這樣說啦華盛頓廣場協議你也非常清楚啦他用美國的實力來影響你其他的貿易對象逼著貿易對象來生死嘛他現在沒有逼著你貿易對象生死第一個就把你關稅提高嘛第二個他如果再加上把你貶值的話你看台灣以出口貿易為導向的這個經濟體如何去面對我現在擔心的地方就是在這邊啦"},{"start":479.615,"end":496.239,"text":"委員擔心的是很正常很合理邏輯上是對的不過我想我們會密切注意這件事總裁你稍作休息我請你來部長因為賴清德總統已經有去彭博社新聞社裡頭書第一個他是強調說要一定要洗產地"},{"start":500.56,"end":522.43,"text":"你到底有沒有什麼方式好洗產地越南的方式洗產地的方式怎麼洗產地呢他就在科徵中國的這個稅金高達25%有沒有可能比照辦理部長洗產地的部分其實我們的關務署跟經濟部都是強一直非常密切的合作我們剛才報告過就是海關裡面有三道的防線除了防線之外有沒有可能用稅的這個工具啦有沒有可能我就問你這個問題嘛"},{"start":523.473,"end":523.853,"text":"謝謝經濟部的次長"},{"start":549.022,"end":568.174,"text":"那個何次長何次你現在的狀況好像重但是放在經濟部第一個的部分是說你們要採買採買的部分我算一算這個石油的部分採買你大概憨不啷噹有沒有可能天然氣加石油有沒有可能多100億的可能性它總共大概360億左右"},{"start":569.952,"end":597.502,"text":"是就短約跟長約大概有三是短約大概三到四成的左右有沒有可能訂單移轉有沒有可能是當然這是一個可能性盡量來達到擴大那加強投資的部分呢就減少貿易逆差現在也在進行是好這兩個你們現在負責這兩個對我們那個杜次長杜次我們現階段跟美國的這個貿易是美國是屬於順差的部分農產品是28億"},{"start":599.443,"end":628.413,"text":"可是我們主要的部分是黃豆跟玉米的部分還有一些空間主要是跟巴西買有沒有可能轉向美國其實美國這邊因為就我們的業者來講第一個品質當然要穩定第二個價格要合理那以美國來看這最近的黃豆玉米價格報價其實都非常可接受所以有可能轉單我們業者確實是有然後貿易逆差不為了逆差也為了他們自己就是整個糧食的來源供應穩定跟品質好然後但是現在我們就是在貿易的問題"},{"start":629.193,"end":643.988,"text":"不是一個供應的問題嘛最後請教一下總裁總裁你上一次的報告當中有特別提到說要購買農產品要增加投資嘛還有增加採買嘛對不對這三項嘛還有還買武器嘛對不對可是買武器的部分有算在裡頭嗎"},{"start":645.848,"end":674.075,"text":"據我們了解好像武器有一部分是它有放在裡面但是我知道好像大部分沒有即便我們現在2.5%的GDP這個可以再拆開一下 欠搭3%的話這個可以採買的武器大概剩下40億的空間所以說你這樣的說法這40億當中真的能夠達到貿易平衡的效果到底有多少你們評估一下只有一部分嘛"},{"start":676.496,"end":691.305,"text":"我們記得我們在了解的...稍微了解一下嗎要不然我們寫得夯不啷噹好像國人很有信心但是事實上沒有那麼多的情況底下相關的單位就要增加其他的方式來平衡貿易的可能性嘛好不好好 謝謝大家 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":439,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時7分）主席，有請彭主委、莊部長、楊總裁、經濟部次長及農業部次長。"],["主席：彭主委、莊部長、楊總裁、經濟部何次長及農業部次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員早。"],["郭委員國文：主委好、總裁好、大家好。我先請教莊部長，你也知道我在媒體上有一些發言，就是5,000億安定基金到底夠不夠？原本臺股市值8.19兆，大概占6.1%，但是現在73.6兆，占比剩下0.67%，國安基金已經預計要進去了，雖然使用率沒有那麼高，但是金額多一點大家總會比較安心，主要是安定、安心，不一定要用到足，請問這5,000億用多少了？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，5,000億裡面當然有2,000億是……"],["郭委員國文：我知道，2,300億，這我都知道，你就不用講我們都知道的common sense。"],["莊部長翠雲：你說什麼？"],["郭委員國文：現在用了多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分執行秘書來做，我不會知道。"],["郭委員國文：他沒跟你報告？部長完全沒有掌握？就丟給他處理，來備詢都還不會問、不會準備……"],["莊部長翠雲：在國安基金裡面，我只是其中一個委員……"],["郭委員國文：那你總要知道、要掌握狀況吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，昨天才……"],["郭委員國文：對啊！你也是執行秘書的上司，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：我上次還問你是不是要增加，你也是說需要進行合理的評估。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：請問一下評估了沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經有做評估了。"],["郭委員國文：交代了沒有？評估結果呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：評估的結果，我們覺得也許會在適當的時機做處理吧！"],["郭委員國文：適當的時機也許會再做調整，所以現在這麼嚴重的情況還不是適當的時機？"],["莊部長翠雲：今天股市已經回彈了。"],["郭委員國文：今天是今天，剛剛楊總裁還跟你講說不確定、不穩定，川普可以一下子半夜講要延90天，搞不好後天又變縮短成40天。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然變動性蠻大的。"],["郭委員國文：川普就像天氣一樣變來變去難以捉摸，比女人還女人。對不起、不好意思，沒有什麼意思，抱歉！所以這種情況下，難以預測川普，或許天氣還可以預測。現在不變應萬變，基本上就怕非理性的崩盤，在非理性崩盤的情況底下，國安基金是適時的去做多。","彭主委，限空令基本上是防阻過度的放空，在一個要限空、一個要做多的情況底下，請問你們彼此有沒有協調機制？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實在資本市場的管理涉及重大事件的時候，我們當然跟各個部會都保持密切的溝通，但是我們有各自的職掌。"],["郭委員國文：在密切溝通下要去掌握，並同步如何讓資本市場恢復到理性跟基本面才是目標，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然回復到正常市場機制是我們在金融市場監理最重要的目標。"],["郭委員國文：就是這個最重要，所以才會有限空及國安基金進場，你們兩邊是怎麼協調法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，這部分其實有各種不同狀況，因為每次的情形看起來非常類似，但都有很大的不同。"],["郭委員國文：像今天股市已經漲到這種情況，原來的限空令是不是到明天結束？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的暫行措施宣布到5天。"],["郭委員國文：5天，請教你下禮拜還會不會有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會在星期六下午宣布。"],["郭委員國文：在下午幾點？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們要先看國際的狀況，因為有時間的落差。"],["郭委員國文：在整個國際盤勢的情況下，星期六下午再宣布下禮拜是不是要延長限空令？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我們現在是這樣預計的。"],["郭委員國文：目前這樣預計。好，主委，你先請回。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：我先請教一下總裁，包括其他的部會。總裁，我試著去看川普的連環計，你站在整體經濟來說，第一個、先關稅戰，逼著在美國設廠，減少貿易之間的逆差；第二個、到美國設廠，製造業就可以復興，同時打擊中國洗產地，創造美國就業機會；第三個、採取美元貶值的方式來打擊外匯的操縱國家；第四個、賺取外匯，減少國債，把短債變成長債。有沒有可能是這種套路？"],["楊總裁金龍：step one關稅戰，我覺得邏輯上是可以的、是對的；製造業復興也是對的，不過除非美國製造業是重點式的復興，不可能全面復興。"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為人力等等都不大一樣。"],["郭委員國文：只要在川普的重要選區復興就可以了。"],["楊總裁金龍：但美元貶值拼出口，這個也不見得，因為匯率也不是川普要讓美元貶值就貶值。"],["郭委員國文：不是喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：這麼有把握？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，除非就像Plaza Accord。"],["郭委員國文：好，你現在談到匯率，我們就來聊一下。你知道川普基本上有一個經濟顧問Miran。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：Miran有提到美元基本上是過度被高估，所以加徵25%，Miran建議應該走弱勢美元貶值20%，讓整個製造業回流。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果按照目前公開的檔案當中，從關稅戰一直到美元貶值，有一個路徑圖喔！總裁，你記不記得我們上個會期討論的的時候，我就請教你川普會走強勢美元還是弱勢美元？可是顯然經濟顧問Miran的看法跟你截然不同，不是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。"],["郭委員國文：還是川普聽你的？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，事實沒有多久前，他的財政部長才說他們還是希望強勢美元。"],["郭委員國文：可是他們的財政部長是邊緣，不是核心啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，事實上匯率是財政部在主掌的。"],["郭委員國文：所以你認為美國不會走弱勢美元？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然財政部長都說是強勢美元，但是我想委員也知道，川普的個性就是「我說了算，部長說的沒有算」，但是一貫以來，美國財政部都是希望強勢美元。"],["郭委員國文：強勢美元。所以就你跟美國財政部溝通是走強勢美元。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，強勢美元。"],["郭委員國文：所以貶值的路線不會這樣走就是了？"],["楊總裁金龍：美國前財政部長Yellen一直認為匯率講說弱勢美元或強勢美元好像都不太對，他認為匯率是由市場來決定。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，說是這樣說，華盛頓廣場協議你也非常清楚。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：他用美國的實力來影響其他的貿易對象，逼著貿易對象來升值，川普現在沒有逼得貿易對象升值，第一個就把關稅提高；第二個，如果再加上美元貶值的話，你看臺灣這個以出口貿易為導向的經濟體要如何去面對？我現在擔心的地方就是在這邊。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員擔心的是很正常、很合理，邏輯上也是對的，不過我們會密切注意這件事。"],["郭委員國文：好，總裁你稍作休息，我請問一下部長。","因為賴清德總統已經有去彭博新聞社投書，第一個，他強調一定要解決洗產地的問題，你到底有什麼方式？針對透過越南洗產地的問題，川普要對中國課徵稅金高達125%，我們有沒有可能比照辦理？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：洗產地的部分，其實關務署跟經濟部都一直非常密切的合作，我們剛剛有報告過海關有三道防線，對……"],["郭委員國文：除了防線之外，有沒有可能用稅的工具？我就問你這個問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：洗產地的目的最主要就是從中國進口以後，改成Made in Taiwan的標籤再出去，就是洗產地。這個部分我們一定會杜絕，而且也強力查核，三道防線實施以後已經有一定的成效，我們最近也一直在滾動地精進，讓它可以更嚴厲、更嚴密。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。然後請教經濟部的何次長，何次，現在經濟部的狀況好像是把重擔放在經濟部。你們第一個是採買，採買的部分我算一算，有沒有可能天然氣加石油的採買會多一百億？它總共大概三百六十億左右。就是短約跟長約，短約大概占三到四成左右，有沒有可能訂單移轉，有沒有可能？這是一個可能性嘛。"],["何次長晉滄：是，我們儘量來達到擴大採購。"],["郭委員國文：加強投資的部分呢？減少貿易逆差，現在也在進行嘛？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["郭委員國文：你們現在負責這兩個。"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["郭委員國文：杜次長，我們現階段跟美國的農產品貿易，美國是順差的部分28億，可是我們主要的部分是黃豆跟玉米，還有一些空間主要是跟巴西買，這部分有沒有可能轉向美國？"],["杜次長文珍：其實美國這邊，因為就我們的業者來講，第一個品質上要穩定，第二個價格要合理，以美國來看最近的黃豆、玉米價格報價其實都非常可接受，所以我們……"],["郭委員國文：所以這次有可能轉單來減少……"],["杜次長文珍：我們業者確實是有……"],["郭委員國文：來減少貿易逆差。"],["杜次長文珍：不為了逆差，也為了他們自己，就是整個糧食的來源供應穩定跟品質好。"],["郭委員國文：對，但是現在我們就是在貿易的問題嘛。"],["杜次長文珍：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：不是一個供應的問題嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：最後，我請教一下總裁，你上一次的報告當中有特別提到，要購買農產品、要增加投資，還有增加採買，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是，沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：這三項，還有買武器，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：可是買武器的部分有算在裡頭嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我們了解，武器好像有一部分是放在裡面。"],["郭委員國文：但是我知道好像大部分沒有，即便我們現在2.5%的GDP……"],["楊總裁金龍：這個可以再check一下。"],["郭委員國文：變大為3%的話，可以採買的武器大概剩下44億的空間。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們這個部分再check看看。"],["郭委員國文：所以你這樣的說法，這44億元當中，真的能夠達到貿易平衡的效果到底有多少，你能不能評估一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：只有一部分嘛！我記得嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們再瞭解一下。"],["郭委員國文：稍微瞭解一下嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，好、好。"],["郭委員國文：不要變成我們寫得夯不啷噹，好像國人很有信心，但是事實上沒有那麼多的情況底下，相關的單位就要增加其他的方式來提高平衡貿易的可能性，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭國文委員的質詢。下一位請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160056","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971202522a68fbd8dbb5f179c558939ff98972c2a43b2ce79c5055ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:07:00 - 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请院长好 有请廖院长"},{"start":14.198,"end":28.922,"text":"政委員好院長早安這邊我想先請教院長本席發現有立委是運用我們中研院的報告來佐證乾式儲存廠還有很多空間根本不存在核廢料的後續處置的問題但是事實是這樣嗎請專家來回答"},{"start":37.323,"end":51.708,"text":"中研院永續科學中心副執行秘書龍士郡中研院並沒有研究核能相關的人才所以基本上我們都是取用政府公開資料來做彙整這是一個彙整報告"},{"start":54.309,"end":71.62,"text":"我想請教一下院長跟您確認以您的專業您回答我按照我們標準的安全的核廢料處理高階核廢料的後續處理是不是就是先放在幹室儲存場然後再移到中期的戰存場最後移到最終處置的這個設施是不是這樣"},{"start":74.384,"end":76.786,"text":"理論上是先在場內的一個冷卻池之後的話才會移到場內的乾式儲存槽然後的話如果我們社會有共識能夠找到一個最終儲存場的話最終儲置場然後的話要移"},{"start":90.339,"end":113.32,"text":"因為其實我們按照這個標準的安全的核廢的路徑圖來講我們從燃料池出來之後會到乾式儲存的儲放然後到中期的暫時儲放之後我們會放到最終處置就是最終的處置設施嘛是標準的處理程序是這樣子嗎是那麼我想請教這個核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎"},{"start":115.451,"end":122.114,"text":"理論上最好最後還是要有一個最終處置場但是很遺憾的是現在社會並沒有共識你們的這份報告上面有提到說核廢料可以一直只放在乾式儲存場就好不用後續處理嗎你上面有寫嗎這邊的話我們都沒有寫我們這邊的話都是取用台電以及這個核安會已經核定的報告所以這是你們的一個數據的統計這不是我們的統計這其實我們是引用別人的資料"},{"start":142.864,"end":148.048,"text":"引用別人資料來做你們的報告嗎現在其實做其實核廢料的處理剛剛我們有討論過了就是這個錄定就是說最後是還有包含就是說中期的暫時儲存跟最終的這個處置嘛那其實連美國到現在都還沒有找到最終處置的場址"},{"start":161.297,"end":178.543,"text":"那中期的暫存跟最終的處理的選址才是我們現在不能再繼續使用可能一個很大的關鍵那我也希望要藉這個機會讓你們中研院把話說清楚不要在這樣的情況之下混淆視天讓民眾誤解其實民眾現在誤以為說我們有很多的這個空間可以繼續來儲存這些核廢料而且不用再繼續處理我們可以繼續發展核能繼續產生核廢料是這樣嗎"},{"start":190.848,"end":213.874,"text":"跟委員報告台電以及經過和安會所核定的台電報告中提到的是乾式儲存槽如果按照目前的規劃的話他確實可能還有一些儲存的空間那最大的儲存的年限的話大概是50年但是在那個之後還是需要最終儲置場那很遺憾的是和安會已經試圖要去"},{"start":215.774,"end":241.604,"text":"這個尋找這個最終儲置場很多年了但是因為社會沒有共識很難所以很沒有辦法選擇到這個最終儲置場好 院長您要說明我們這個報告寫得很清楚就是蓋好後才可以提供儲存換句話說有一些蓋了大部分都還沒有蓋好是這樣子的意思重點是在於乾式儲存它不是最終儲值對 乾式儲存它只是一個暫時的"},{"start":242.984,"end":254.318,"text":"我們後續要處理的部分才是我們現在最棘手的那你們也做這樣的澄清了就是我們的核廢料不能不是只是一直放在乾式儲存場就可以不是永久我們最終的這個最終處置的部分沒有解決"},{"start":258.823,"end":277.655,"text":"所以現在這樣是不足以解決就是我們目前核廢掉的問題的好 謝謝那再來我想請教我們核三廠的二號機將在五月十七就除役那接下來二零五零的近年排放的進度及相關科技的這些研發的進度也是大家都一直非常關心的議題"},{"start":278.576,"end":287.804,"text":"那中研院你們這個五大技能科技當中呢去碳燃氫已經在2023年在興達電廠啟動示範機組我想請教一下目前的進度怎麼樣我們現在在規模放大當中跟一些國內廠商合作希望把規模放大到能夠5MW的地步預計在2026年明年在興達電廠"},{"start":305.859,"end":326.148,"text":"能夠測試我們的規模放大的效果明年會測試規模放大那你們什麼時候預計投入商轉投入商轉要看規模放大的成果怎麼樣就是現在初期的測試是成效是很好的但是還沒有規模放大那明年我們會規模放大再來測試"},{"start":327.368,"end":348.073,"text":"對 只要測試成功 那我們當然接下來商轉的可能性就非常高假如測試沒有很成功 我們還可以要多努力 還可以往後再推幾年所以要明年規模放大測試之後才會知道說未來什麼時候投入商轉是的那有沒有預期說我們首次投入商轉可以帶來多少發電量這個有沒有一個規劃"},{"start":351.233,"end":373.96,"text":"這個我想這個事情都是要逐步的這個屈膽然青的技術可貴的地方就是它不是一次全有或全無它可以逐步增加它的含氫量也是可以逐步增加所以它可以是這個技術發展的狀況可以是這個成本的效果可以簡單的需要可以逐步增加所以院長的意思是說現在目前是沒有辦法評估要等明年這個擴大規模的測試之後才能夠知道"},{"start":380.583,"end":400.781,"text":"我們在進行科技中的地熱海洋能以及升值碳會目前好像比較沒有突破性的進展院長是不是要說明一下這三項計畫目前你們執行的情況在地熱方面我們在宜蘭園山已經跟中油合作專探國內首座的深層地熱的研究井到"},{"start":402.562,"end":422.934,"text":"這個禮拜為止已經鑽到1500公尺已經鑽1500公尺了這是已經是相當大的突破那我們預計年底應該可以鑽到4500公尺今年年底可以到3000公尺所以這方面持續在進行當中"},{"start":424.518,"end":448.295,"text":"那光電的部分我們剛才也提到說光電的部分我們最近有相當好的進展就是在高效光剛才您有展示過有這樣的成效這個方面是非常好的那在海洋能方面我們也開始測試在我們的海洋流發電機在高雄港裡面已經下水測試做浮力測試所以這個也持續都有進行當中"},{"start":449.54,"end":471.418,"text":"那關於生殖炭灰這個部分生殖炭灰部分我們跟農委會的敘事所在合作在培養在篩選下一世代的狼尾草作為牧草它的耐旱耐冷它的肥料的效應等等這個方面也有相當好的進展"},{"start":472.208,"end":488.021,"text":"所以其實都持續是有進度的但是每一個技術它對時程都不一樣譬如說生殖蛋會跟海洋人它可能時間會比較久一點院長你這邊你會後你把相關的這些資訊你一份資料給我辦公室"},{"start":488.681,"end":494.185,"text":"我是希望說中研院這邊要積極的辦理關於我們近鄰的這些相關科技的繼續的研發而且我們也要隨時關注我們整個世界的趨勢來盡快達成我們2050近鄰探訪這個目標那我這邊快速的先問一下好了就是我們中研院的這個預算被刪減的問題呢其實我們都知道說學術交流非常的重要"},{"start":513.759,"end":532.605,"text":"對於我們的這個國外旅費以及出國教育訓練費用招統15%這個部分呢想必也會影響到我們一些學術交流的活動讓我們一些優秀的學術研究人員沒有辦法順利的進行相關的學術交流及訓練我想知道的是我們中研院這邊因應的辦法是什麼"},{"start":534.431,"end":555.76,"text":"我們在可能的範圍裡面我們儘量由這個院方來調度可用的經費所以確實這個產生了相當大的問題所以我們只能在同一工作計畫向下能夠留用但是在不同工作計畫下就不能留用所以我們有一點空間但空間不是很大"},{"start":556.82,"end":570.43,"text":"特別是因為金額這個很多大家都需要都同樣有同樣狀況所以跟別人借錢也沒那麼容易所以是這樣的狀況那在這狀況之下每一個計劃執行的研究員就"},{"start":571.972,"end":584.025,"text":"會比較沒有企圖心做一些比較前瞻性或者是未來性的研究我想有一些研究員他們本來有一些計畫去執行的就會有點挫折了"},{"start":586.408,"end":603.45,"text":"你們被刪的這個經費相當高國外旅費就有兩千多萬那出國教育訓練費用有五百多萬所以其實這樣子合縱起來你們其實合計起來你們被刪的費用這麼高我覺得是會影響到所以我希望說你們院長院長這邊跟我們中院院長盡量想辦法來協助我們相關的人員"},{"start":604.371,"end":630.478,"text":"但是我真的還是要強調因為其實中研院我們帶領我們國科技前進而且我們前的那個之前我們之前在開會的時候也問過國科會主委他說台灣沒有諾貝爾得主這覺得很丟臉所以我希望說中研院這邊跟我們其他的科研單位還是要持續努力雖然現在遇到這樣子的狀況但希望說我們跟相關的部會包括教育部我們相關的高等教育的相關改革"},{"start":631.098,"end":632.884,"text":"可以持續努力我們盡快產生諾貝爾獎的得主好嗎好謝謝謝謝院長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":366,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時7分）謝謝主席，請院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長早安。我想先請教院長，本席發現有立委運用中研院的報告來佐證乾式貯存場還有很多空間，根本不存在核廢料後續處置的問題，但是事實是這樣嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我們請專家來回答。"],["龍副主任世俊：你好，我是中研院永續科學中心的副執行秘書龍世俊，剛剛院長已經報告過，因為中研院並沒有研究核能相關的人才，基本上我們都是取用政府公開資料來彙整，所以這是一個彙整報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：我想請教院長，以您的專業回答我，按照標準安全的核廢料處理，高階核廢料的後續處理是不是先放在乾式貯存場，然後再移到中期的暫存場，最後移到最終處置的設施，是不是這樣？"],["龍副主任世俊：理論上是先在場內的冷卻池，之後移到場內的乾式貯存槽，如果社會有共識能夠找到最終處置場的話，最終要移存到最終處置場。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為按照標準、安全的核廢料路徑圖來講，從燃料池出來之後會到乾式貯存場貯放，然後到中期暫時貯存，最終會放到最終處置設施，標準的處理程序是這樣子嗎？"],["龍副主任世俊：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：我想請教核廢料可以一直放在乾式貯存場嗎？"],["龍副主任世俊：理論上最後最好還是要有一個最終處置場，但是很遺憾的是現在社會沒有共識。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們的這份報告上面有提到，核廢料可以一直只放在乾式貯存場就好，不用後續處理嗎？"],["龍副主任世俊：我們都沒有寫，我們這邊都是取用台電及核安會已經核定的報告……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以這是你們數據的統計，但是……"],["龍副主任世俊：這不是我們的統計，我們是引用別人的資料。"],["陳委員秀寳：引用別人的資料做你們的報告嗎？核廢料的處理剛剛有討論過核廢料的路徑，包含中期的暫時貯存跟最終的處置，連美國到現在都還沒有找到最終處置的場址，中期的暫存跟最終處置場的選址，才是現在不能再繼續使用核能很大的關鍵，我希望藉這個機會讓中研院把話說清楚，不要在這樣情況之下混淆視聽，讓民眾誤解，民眾現在誤以為我們有很多的空間可以繼續貯存這些核廢料，而且不用再繼續處理，我們可以繼續發展核能，繼續產生核廢料，是這樣嗎？"],["龍副主任世俊：跟委員報告，台電以及經過核安會所核定的台電報告中，提到的是乾式貯存槽如果按照目前的規劃，確實可能還有一些貯存的空間，最大的儲存年限大概是五十年，但是在那個之後，還是需要最終處置場，很遺憾的是核安會已經試圖要尋找最終處置場很多年了，但是因為社會沒有共識……"],["陳委員秀寳：要找到很難。"],["龍副主任世俊：所以沒有辦法找到最終處置場。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，院長，您要說明？"],["廖院長俊智：我們這個報告寫得很清楚，蓋好後才可以提供貯存，換句話說，大部分都還沒有蓋好，是這樣子的意思。"],["陳委員秀寳：重點是乾式貯存不是最終處置……"],["廖院長俊智：對，乾式貯存……"],["陳委員秀寳：它只是一個暫時的，我們後續要處理的部分才是現在最棘手的。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，你們也澄清了，核廢料不是只是一直放在乾式貯存場就可以……"],["廖院長俊智：不是永久。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們最終處置的部分沒有解決，所以現在這樣是不足以解決目前核廢料的問題。","再來，我想請教，核三廠的二號機將在5月17日除役，接下來2050的淨零排放的進度及相關科技研發的進度，也是大家都非常關心的議題，中研院的五大淨零科技當中，去碳燃氫2023年已經在興達電廠啟動示範機組，我想請教目前的進度怎麼樣？"],["廖院長俊智：現在在規模放大當中，我們跟一些國內廠商合作，希望把規模放大到5MW的地步，預計在2026年興達電廠能夠測試規模放大的效果。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以明年會測試規模放大，那你們什麼時候預計投入商轉？"],["廖院長俊智：投入商轉要看規模放大的成果怎麼樣。"],["陳委員秀寳：現在初期的測試是成效是很好的。"],["廖院長俊智：但是還沒有規模放大，現在還是……"],["陳委員秀寳：明年我們會規模放大再來測試，之後……"],["廖院長俊智：對，假設測試成功，我們接下來商轉的可能性就非常高；假如測試沒有很成功，我們還要多努力，可能往後再推幾年。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以明年規模放大測試之後才會知道未來什麼時候投入商轉。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：有沒有預期首次投入商轉，可以帶來多少發電量，這個有沒有規劃？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這個事情都是要逐步進行的，去碳燃氫的技術可貴的地方就是它不是一次全有或全無，可以視技術發展的狀況、成本的效果、減碳的需要來逐步增加含氫量。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長的意思是現在是沒有辦法評估，要等明年擴大規模的測試之後才能夠知道？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：我想請教院長，在淨零科技中的地熱能、海洋能，以及生質碳匯，目前好像比較沒有突破性的進展……"],["廖院長俊智：有。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長要請你說明這三項計畫目前你們執行的情況。"],["廖院長俊智：在地熱方面，宜蘭員山已經跟中油合作鑽探國內首座的深層地熱的研究井，到這個禮拜為止，已經鑽到1,500公尺，這是相當大的突破，我們預計年底應該可以鑽到3,000公尺，所以這方面持續進行當中。","光電部分，剛才提到我們最近有相當好的進展，就是在高效光……"],["陳委員秀寳：剛才您有展示過這樣的成效。"],["廖院長俊智：對，這個方面是非常好的。","在海洋能方面，我們也開始測試，海洋流發電機在高雄廠裡面已經下水做浮力測試，持續都有進行當中。"],["陳委員秀寳：關於生質碳匯的部分？"],["廖院長俊智：生質碳匯部分，我們跟農委會的畜試所合作培養、篩選下一世代的狼尾草作為牧草，它的耐旱、耐冷，它的肥料的效應等等，這個方面也有相當好的進展。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以持續是有進度的？"],["廖院長俊智：對，但是每一個技術的時程都不一樣，譬如生質碳匯跟海洋能的時間，可能會比較久一點。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長會後把相關的這些資訊，提供一份資料給我們辦公室。"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["陳委員秀寳：我是希望中研院要積極地辦理關於淨零的相關科技技術的研發，而且要隨時關注整個世界的趨勢，儘快達成我們2050淨零碳排的目標。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：我快速地先問一下，你們中研院預算被刪減的問題，我們都知道學術交流非常的重要，對於你們的國外旅費以及出國教育訓練費費用遭統刪15%的部分，想必也會影響到你們一些學術交流的活動，讓一些優秀的學術研究人員沒有辦法順利地進行相關的學術交流及訓練。我想知道你們中研院因應的辦法是什麼？"],["廖院長俊智：在可能的範圍裡，儘量由我們院方調度可用的經費，但是……"],["陳委員秀寳：這不能流用啊！"],["廖院長俊智：這確實產生相當大的問題，我們只能在同一工作計畫項下能夠流用，但是在不同工作計畫下就不能流用，所以我們是有一點空間，但空間不是很大，特別是因為這經費大家都需要，都有遇到同樣的狀況，所以要跟別人借錢也沒那麼容易，在這種狀況下，每一個計畫執行的研究員會比較沒有企圖心做一些比較具前瞻性或者未來性的研究。"],["陳委員秀寳：我想有一些研究員執行一些計畫上會有點挫折，因為你們被刪的經費相當高，國外旅費就有兩千多萬，出國教育訓練費用有五百多萬，合計起來你們被刪的費用這麼高，我覺得是會影響到，所以我希望院長跟你們中研院儘量想辦法協助你們相關的人員。"],["廖院長俊智：是，我們有在做。"],["陳委員秀寳：我還是要強調，中研院帶領我國科技前進，尤其我們之前在開會的時候，也詢問過國科會主委，他提到臺灣沒有諾貝爾得主，覺得很丟臉，所以我希望中研院跟其他的科研單位還是要持續努力，雖然現在遇到這樣的狀況，但希望你們跟相關的部會，包括教育部，相關高等教育的改革可以持續努力，可以儘快產出諾貝爾得獎的得主好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，院長請回。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97123f2ae738ff1415aaf9600c3f6b437ac272c2a43b2ce79c50a44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:04:06 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過去裡面我們可以追溯"},{"start":207.984,"end":225.397,"text":"我們過去在2008年桃園新屋鄉首先發難2011年北海岸山之鄉也爆發怒火在2012年英華威公司在苗栗"},{"start":228.513,"end":256.322,"text":"苗栗也是進行了強行的動工所以造成了一個反風電的一個風暴所以這個部分你一定要記得記得要查查到底他們是為什麼為什麼還在那個地方而且媒體都有報導說要將在台東東海要設立風電那我想請教如果是這樣的話如果是這樣的話"},{"start":260.647,"end":289.682,"text":"東海岸成功泰瑪麗大舞就是天賦造舞的藝術創作那例如政府不傾聽民意以其閒挨勒馬強行硬幹的話本席將號召台東上萬的鄉親上北北上總統府行政院包含經濟部進行史上最大的抗爭你不要不信今天"},{"start":290.302,"end":318.809,"text":"你要經過部落議會如果有涉及到台東原住民的傳統領域包含海域法的話必須要經過部落會議的召開而且要進行以上三場的公聽會次長你來回應一下是謝謝委員的關心我們回去會就委員的提案我們會回去進行這個"},{"start":320.677,"end":346.112,"text":"討論然後也會向長官報告委員的關切我們強力的祭節的封店黃武家園以上我要提出有五大點在究竟這套封店制度背後的結構性問題為何本席提出五大五大的問題請政府重視的民意第一缺乏公眾"},{"start":347.893,"end":350.874,"text":"公眾參與機制應從選址階段就廣增意見第二用補償換開發人權被漠視應將居民權益納入審查程序"},{"start":363.188,"end":383.069,"text":"第三 缺乏區域規劃 尊重既有使用者 落實沿海空間的規劃第四 法制基礎不完備 應制定正式法規命令第五 跨部會整合不足 權責失衡 須有更高的統籌單位"},{"start":385.872,"end":409.972,"text":"以上在這個部分本席強調政府應制定計劃逐步邁向非核家營而不是在時勢急急忙忙用盡一切的手段讓我們的鹽田 漁溫 濕地 海岸遭到難以恢復的破壞所以更犧牲了鄉村 漁民以及當地民眾的權益所以"},{"start":410.552,"end":438.8,"text":"第一個業者應該要先從地方政府申請若地方同意申請後會再送中央審查核備那業者動工前必須先辦理說明會二選址限制若是政府公告之生態敏感區域那絕對禁止設置那我的建議是如果業者向地方政府申請地方政府應該要求業者"},{"start":440.44,"end":457.768,"text":"舉辦三場的宮廷會所以這是非常非常嚴重而且破壞了整個東海岸的大自然今天我們核能電廠不辦光電就造害了公害台南嘉義就是一個例子"},{"start":458.368,"end":473.984,"text":"那現在要想到我們台東東海岸裡面想要動這個頭腦我們絕對拒絕而且我們絕對會責成所有東海岸的鄉親來上北上來抗議"},{"start":476.426,"end":494.917,"text":"市長你要特別把我的話重視告訴給部長絕對不能夠強行硬幹這個事情好不好報告委員因為這個台東縣政府是地方電業的主管機關所以我們應該要地方政府先行的來同意同意之後呢你們要查查到底東風"},{"start":496.819,"end":510.575,"text":"東風今天憑什麼會在那個地方說明會憑什麼是你們已經有你們有允許還是有核備還是跟縣政府有核備你們查查一下好不好是那把這個報告提出給我是好 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請郭部長"},{"start":15.905,"end":33.616,"text":"我想昨天已經就一些題目跟你討論了但是我想今天的一個新的狀況就是川普發文說對於我們有75個國家其實已經有做了比較善意的一些談判的需求所以針對這75個國家我們就是這個關稅10%那這10%我相信"},{"start":41.14,"end":69.386,"text":"對於台灣稍稍有緩了一下可是這久時間就像我說講的我們在這談判期這當中還是會有一些衝擊面就像我們說的這衝擊面我們的馬上辦可以給予多少的協助就像剛剛講的不裁員不減薪不能趁火打劫這才是重要不能說明明沒有影響然後因為"},{"start":71.114,"end":88.402,"text":"這樣的一個理由而造成我們另外一個傷害我們自己企業體的傷害所以我覺得這個部分我們自己要把持住然後呢在我們針對這個談判當中我們很清楚從川普的發文大概他的目標就是中國啦"},{"start":89.468,"end":118.968,"text":"包括我們過去一直在揣測的說他就是要把中國的一個真面目把它挑出來也就是當在選舉的時候他不斷的就已經在談到關稅然後呢很多這個中國的企業就是用一個所謂的不同的一個角度去做了息產地的一個調整所以跑到東南亞跑到一些他們比較友好的國家而造成了"},{"start":120.048,"end":146.938,"text":"美國川普做了一些要做中國制裁的動作包括針對周邊的稀產地那台灣是沒有的所以我真的希望我們台灣反而可以在這個所謂的一個經濟狀況的一個改變我們如何讓我們的廠商可以回流讓我們的一個製造可以在這裡"},{"start":148.258,"end":166.673,"text":"這才是重點所以我們現在有兩個區塊喔部長除了我們要面對美國的這個關稅另外一個部分是我們要怎麼讓我們自己的體制更好讓我們在中國的一些廠商可以回流台商回流"},{"start":167.493,"end":178.66,"text":"這也是最重要的關鍵所以部長麻煩你這個部分再拜託把一些策略政策要做好比較詳細的討論兩個方向一個是怎麼應付未來的談判"},{"start":184.761,"end":199.572,"text":"我們的關稅要怎麼處理第二就是我們要怎麼讓在美國對於中國產業制裁的當中我們要怎麼讓台商回流拜託那我們請財政部好 請理事長"},{"start":207.609,"end":229.721,"text":"市長現在我想你也知道每次我們說我們要紓困我們的公股銀行要來協助可是你知道嗎每一次這個帽子開得很高可是做出來的並不是如此因為很重要的一個關節就是訂單"},{"start":231.169,"end":238.004,"text":"是了解很多我們的銀行端他都會說你有訂單我才要給你廢話這個狀態完全不同"},{"start":242.516,"end":267.157,"text":"這個狀態現在我們所面臨的是因為我們可能美國關稅的調整而造成訂單的縮減雖然我們現在積極努力要去做一些協調溝通可是當我們銀行端在做一些他的核准條件他都會先看你的背後未來的體制"},{"start":268.178,"end":272.782,"text":"那跟我們這一次就完全不同啊市長有沒有什麼樣在針對這一波的狀態當中有做什麼調整"},{"start":278.142,"end":298.135,"text":"報告委員 因為銀行在做融資貸款的時候 他們還是會有風險考量風險考量才是現在壓死大家的重點但是目前有我們中好企業銀行跟八大公關一起協助合作"},{"start":298.815,"end":323.258,"text":"以自由資金來做的這個融資貸款他其實他主要就是希望能夠提供給這個企業做這個營運所需的周轉性的支出或者是說他要擴建廠房機器設備我都知道這些可是我們來自基層我們聽到很多企業跟我們投訴說每次我們去申請總是第一個條件是你的訂單在哪裡"},{"start":324.139,"end":336.76,"text":"你的背後體制在哪裡那今天面對這一波就是因為我們有可能要協助的關鍵就是訂單萎縮是那你如果還要在他拿訂單我就跟他說"},{"start":339.116,"end":354.436,"text":"所以市長我只是要跟你提醒你們要重新盤整也就是說當我們公股銀行在這一波要加入整個協助的體制當中你如果再要求訂單是第一條件那就是白搭了"},{"start":355.277,"end":376.26,"text":"那就是白搭了應該利用其他的條件這個再拜託次長我們會在那個跟公股事業這些融資座談的時候金融座談時我們會提醒這個要快因為每次你們都說有啊我們有請公股銀行來協助可是每一次公股銀行要求各企業"},{"start":377.501,"end":393.714,"text":"要去提出的就是他的訂單也就是他未來的發展我知道了解委員的意思就是因為受到這一波關稅政策影響有這個衝擊我們是不是在這個盤點這些貸款條件的時候把這個條件納入考量不要只是唯一一個訂單"},{"start":396.135,"end":403.877,"text":"因為如果你要求訂單 那根本就不符合我們這一次紓困的一個重點嘛我們這一次是因為關稅 美國關稅的調漲而造成有可能訂單的萎縮這種短期緊急的狀況 人家說的現在是急進性嘛那我們在急診室我們就是要用一個急救的方式嘛"},{"start":417.6,"end":431.001,"text":"那你如果再要求像過去的條件那就白搭了啊其實各位報告我們這次在那個金融知識方面我們也有提到就是說如果是中小企業或主管機關認定受到這次衝擊較大的其實我們就會做利率的減少"},{"start":432.944,"end":446.471,"text":"次長這個很重要請你要跟大家講而且不是只有跟我們講也不是跟社會大眾講你要跟公股銀行講省核端是他們啊他們的關鍵他們要願意放才有效啊這個次長再麻煩再來我們請我們農業部部長"},{"start":457.691,"end":477.984,"text":"部長我一樣在用這個圖啦昨天我有用這個圖跟我們經濟部做過討論這個圖今天增加了一個叫延後90天實行這個當時候也就是我昨天一直在講的我們有一個談判期這個談判期多久不知道談判期越長當然"},{"start":479.625,"end":502.876,"text":"如果我們在關稅豁免可以更長的話那更好嘛也就是說不用用這個所謂32%那可是重點來了我們還是要因應啊因為包括蝴蝶蘭、茶葉、毛豆五國魚、鬼頭刀跟鱸魚這個我們台灣這個出口到美國的還是有它一定的數額嘛雖然"},{"start":505.461,"end":529.454,"text":"最大的這個競爭對手都是中國這一次他們被要求了125%的一個關稅所以我們現在是要怎麼把這些市場能夠吸收這也是我們另外一個取款除了我們來協助這些廠商不要受到影響訂單不受到影響另外一個部分是我們要"},{"start":530.194,"end":557.113,"text":"把中國的一個區塊他們原本佔有的市場這個競爭力把它拿回來對不對因為我相信我們的條件還有我們的品質各方面絕對是好太多比起其他國家所以我們更利用也就是我們的一個轉型在整個國際間這個市場的一個大盤整的時候我們要怎麼去搶"},{"start":558.534,"end":573.409,"text":"這也是另外一個轉機啊怎麼去搶部長你有沒有好的方向怎麼去搶我就舉齁就是委員也非常關心在台南非常重要的一個產業就是蝴蝶燃產業你昨天有下去做交流"},{"start":576.414,"end":599.228,"text":"其實中國關稅提高雖然說我們的競爭對手國是荷蘭但是我們有非常好的供應鏈接力生產的系統他們提出來一個就是要擴大在美國的接力廠的一個投資讓我們的產業能夠更有機會去搶食其他中國沒辦法進來的這些產品所以這個部分我想我已經成立了一個蝴蝶蘭的應變小組"},{"start":600.709,"end":609.717,"text":"去針對比較中期的我們必須要去協助廠商去做在美國投資或是在台灣更紮根的這些計畫我想我們已經在做盤點希望能夠去多久這個盤點多久這個盤點我想欸時機咧我知道部長你知道時機比什麼都重要我們已經請業者針對你在美國的這些"},{"start":623.129,"end":642.629,"text":"藍園本身有沒有機會跟台塘合作這個在一個月之內他們就會有一個整理因為有台塘基地在那裡啊對所以我們後續當有了以後我們就會協助說他在國外的資金怎麼取得後續我們會跟財政部這邊還有其他的銀行的部分看有沒有辦法去協助部長我希望因為"},{"start":643.63,"end":672.322,"text":"我們是趕時間在曬炮我知道我們一定要搶得先機一個月好不好我們盡快把這個東西把它完成一個月把這個部分怎麼去協助他們因為我們台廠剛好有基地在那裡那如果是這樣子的話其實是最適當的只是差在我們的廠商有沒有能力這個能力誰要來協助這個部分我們在一個月之內包括怎麼樣組成一個聯盟這個東西是要打聯盟的一個團體戰一定要打聯盟"},{"start":673.422,"end":687.581,"text":"打個人沒有用一定要打聯盟啊因為你台糖基地我們聯盟進去才有辦法去撐起讓大家看到整個我們蝴蝶蘭的市場我們的蘭花市場是可以有另外一個基地在美國"},{"start":688.482,"end":703.627,"text":"那這個基地剛好我們台糖跟我們的聯盟結合我相信兩邊美國我們台南的這個花卉未來的花卉產業基地那我要拜託部長因為這個4月7號你沒辦法下去嗎因為你在處理這個關稅的問題那跟你報告讓你可以接上就是說花卉產業園區對我們台南太重要那"},{"start":714.651,"end":738.067,"text":"我們當時候從過去111年的掛牌一直到現在我一直追掛牌我也去到現場那當時候因為這個是集中過去因為集中是竹尾所以我們一直希望說他不只掛牌他還有量能所謂量能就是預算跟人力好不容易我們原本預計說農業部升格之後那麼"},{"start":738.968,"end":760.314,"text":"他的整個組織變質就可以加進去變成三級可是沒有辦法他容納不進去所以最後我們用花卉試驗所去做結合變成四級那一個月因為那天邀請人事人事處去處理一個月一個月希望能夠把這個事情行政院都何總會會追"},{"start":761.474,"end":786.876,"text":"一個月因為委員的支持因為你如果沒有先把編制處理好你的整個計畫是沒辦法核定的你計畫核定之後所以我們當下也說了5月份我們希望能夠做所謂的環評的預先委託的招標案還有我們的開發計畫同步當我們編制過了之後那麼"},{"start":788.154,"end":815.686,"text":"整個計畫核准他們就可以處理了無縫接軌所以部長這個部分很重要因為當天你沒有去所以我把這個結論跟您報告那麼還有另外一個部分就是說在我們芒果的部分本來4月9號他已經有召開專家會議但是呢因為還有一些細節那我也尊重啦所以4月15號還要再召開一次其實我告訴你整個都收回去了啦"},{"start":816.606,"end":825.934,"text":"而且每一個果都是空泡蛋那一看其實都知道了這一次的天氣實在是太恐怖了我有現場我也去看過因為我告訴你那個冷熱沒這麼久的啦兩米高兩米弱拖這麼久的時間那個冷就受不了更何況是天氣所有的在第一線種植的農民都說將來不要看過這個情形那我們也看過酪梨所以其實酪梨因為有炸"},{"start":846.809,"end":863.676,"text":"早出早生還有中生跟晚生所以你們說可能要拉一點時間這個我接受因為每一個狀態不一樣可是芒果真的不同這一次是完全全軍覆沒所以4月15號拜託不要再拖了這個部分再拜託那還有18間農會的部分我們當年已經都配對好了"},{"start":867.778,"end":872.68,"text":"誰處理誰 誰處理誰都配對好了我們經濟委員會謝謝我們蔡義渝召委給我們這個機會然後由立法院的經濟委員會去給18家農會都做了配對就是說什麼農會找哪一個單位哪一個農會找哪一個單位都配對好了"},{"start":884.005,"end":895.736,"text":"我們希望可以大家照這樣的程序下去進行那把農業不論是現在面對的國際競爭或是我們國內我們都可以給農民有安心謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時55分）謝謝主席，我們先請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，謝謝。昨天已經就一些題目跟你討論了，但是我想今天有一個新的狀況，就是川普發文表示，有75個國家已經有做了比較善意的談判需求，所以針對這75個國家的關稅調整為10%，我相信這10%對臺灣而言是有稍稍緩了一下，可是延後90天施行，就像我所講的，在談判期的過程中還是會有一些衝擊面，針對這些衝擊面，我們的馬上辦可以給予多少協助？就像剛剛講的，不裁員、不減薪、不趁火打劫，這才是重要的，不能說明明沒有影響，然後因為這樣一個理由，造成我們企業體的另外一個傷害，所以我覺得這部分我們自己要把持住。在談判的過程中，從川普的發文，我們可以清楚知道他的目標大概就是中國，包括我們過去一直在揣測川普就是要把中國的真面目挑出來，也就是當初在選舉時，他就已經不斷地談到關稅，然後很多中國企業就用一個所謂的不同角度去做了洗產地的調整，跑到東南亞、跑到一些他們比較友好的國家，造成美國川普做了一些針對中國的制裁動作，包括針對周邊的洗產地等等，而臺灣是沒有的，所以我真的希望臺灣反而可以在這波所謂經濟狀況的改變下，讓我們的廠商可以回流，讓我們的製造可以留在這裡，這才是重點。所以現在有兩個區塊，除了要面對美國的關稅問題外，另外一個部分就是怎麼讓我們自己的體制更好，讓我們在中國的一些廠商可以回流、臺商回流，這也是最重要的關鍵。部長，要麻煩你喔！拜託你們的策略、政策要做好比較詳細的討論，有兩個方向，一個是怎麼應付未來的談判，我們的關稅要怎麼處理？第二是在美國對於中國產業的制裁當中，我們要怎麼讓臺商回流？拜託！","接下來，我們請財政部。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你請回座。次長，我想你也知道，每次我們說要紓困，就是由公股銀行來協助，可是你知道嗎？每次這個帽子都開得很高，但做出來的結果並不是如此，因為有很重要的一個關鍵，就是訂單。"],["李次長慶華：是，了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：很多時候我們的銀行端會說，有訂單才要給你貸款。廢話！這個狀態完全不同欸！現在我們所要面臨的是美國的關稅調整可能造成訂單縮減，雖然我們現在積極努力要去做一些協調、溝通，而過去銀行端在做一些核准條件時，都會先看企業背後未來的體制，但這跟我們這一次的狀況完全不同，次長，針對這一波的狀態，你們有做什麼樣的調整？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，基本上銀行在做融資貸款的時候，還是會有風險考量……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！風險考量才是現在壓死大家的重點。"],["李次長慶華：對，還是有考量，但是目前是由中小企業銀行跟八大公股行庫一起協助合作，以自有資金來做融資貸款，其實主要就是希望能夠提供企業營運所需的周轉性支出，或者是他要擴建廠房、機器設備……"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，這些我都知道，可是我們聽到很多來自基層企業的投訴，他們說每次去申請，第一個條件總是問企業的訂單在哪裡、背後體制在哪裡？今天面對這一波，有可能我們要協助的關鍵就是訂單萎縮，如果還要他們拿出訂單，那不就都是多說的！次長，我只是要提醒你，你們要重新盤整，也就是說，當公股銀行在這一波要加入整個協助的體制時，如果再要求訂單是第一條件，那就是白搭了，那就是白搭了。"],["李次長慶華：了解，委員，這個我們會……"],["陳委員亭妃：應該要利用其他條件，這個再拜託次長。"],["李次長慶華：好，我們會在跟公股事業融資座談、金融座談時提醒他們。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個要快！"],["李次長慶華：好，會。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為每次你們都說有請公股銀行協助，可是每一次公股銀行都會要求各企業提出他們的訂單，也就是他們未來的發展……"],["李次長慶華：我了解委員的意思，就是受到這一波關稅政策的影響，有了衝擊，所以我們在盤點這些貸款條件的時候，可以把這個條件納入考量，但不要只是唯一以訂單或者是他的營運條件……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！因為如果要求訂單，那根本就不符合我們這一次紓困的重點。"],["李次長慶華：是，了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：這次是因為關稅問題，美國關稅的調漲造成企業有可能訂單萎縮，這是短期緊急的狀況，有人說現在就好像是在急診室，在急診室，當然就要用急救的方式，如果再要求像過去那樣的條件，那就白搭了啊！"],["李次長慶華：有，跟委員報告，其實我們這次在金融支持方面也有提到，如果中小企業或經主管機關認定受到這次衝擊較大的，我們就會做利率的減碼……"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，這個很重要，請你要跟大家講，不是只有跟我們講，也不是跟社會大眾講，而是跟公股銀行講……"],["李次長慶華：對，我們會……"],["陳委員亭妃：審核端是他們，審核端是他們啦！關鍵是他們要願意放才有效啊！"],["李次長慶華：好，是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個再麻煩次長。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員亭妃：再來請農業部部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我一樣再用這一張圖，昨天我用這張圖跟經濟部討論過，但這張圖今天增加了一個狀況，叫「延後90天施行」，這也就是我昨天一直講的，我們有一個談判期，談判期多久不知道，但如果談判期越長，我們的關稅豁免可能就可以更長，這樣當然更好，也就是說不用這個所謂的32%關稅，可是重點來了，我們還是要因應啊！因為包括蝴蝶蘭、茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀跟鱸魚等這些我們臺灣出口到美國的，還是有它一定的數額，雖然最大競爭對手都是中國，他們這一次被要求125%的關稅，所以我們要如何利用這次機會把市場吸收下來，這也是另外一個區塊的問題，除了協助廠商訂單不受影響外，另外一個部分就是我們要把中國的這個區塊、他們原本占有的市場，藉此機會把相關競爭力拿回來，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我相信我們的條件、我們的品質各方面，比起其他國家絕對是好太多，所以我們要利用這個機會轉型，在整個國際市場大盤整的時候，我們要怎麼去搶，這也是另外一個轉機，所以請問部長，你有沒有一個好的方向，我們要怎麼去搶？"],["陳部長駿季：我就舉委員也非常關心的臺南一個非常重要的產業，就是蝴蝶蘭產業……"],["陳委員亭妃：是，你昨天有下去做交流嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是，蝴蝶蘭產業有一個非常重要的……其實中國關稅提高，雖然我們的競爭對手國是荷蘭，但是我們有非常好的供應鏈、接力生產的系統，他們有提出一個，就是要擴大在美國接力廠的投資，讓我們的產業能夠更有機會去搶食其他中國沒辦法進來的這些產品。這個部分我已經成立一個蝴蝶蘭的應變小組去針對比較中期的，我們必須協助廠商在美國投資或是在臺灣更扎根的這些計畫，我們已經在盤點，希望能夠去……"],["陳委員亭妃：多久？這個盤點要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：這個盤點，我想我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：時機欸！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你知道時機比什麼都重要。"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經請業者針對在美國的這些蘭園本身有沒有機會跟台糖合作，在一個月之內，他們就會整理，然後……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為有台糖的基地在那裡。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們後續的話，當有了以後，我們就會協助他在國外的資金怎麼取得，後續我們會跟財政部還有其他銀行，看有沒有辦法協助他們的海外投資。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我們是跟時間在賽跑。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們一定要搶得先機。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：一個月好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們儘快把這個東西完成，一個月內我們做一個規劃。"],["陳委員亭妃：一個月，看這個部分怎麼去協助他們，因為我們台糖剛好有基地在那裡，如果是這樣子的話，其實是最適當的，只是差在我們的廠商有沒有能力，這個能力誰要來協助？這個部分……"],["陳部長駿季：我們在一個月之內，包括怎麼樣組成一個聯盟，這個東西是要打聯盟的團體戰。"],["陳委員亭妃：一定要打聯盟，打個人沒有用，一定要打聯盟啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為台糖的基地我們聯盟進去才有辦法撐起，讓大家看到我們整個蝴蝶蘭的市場、我們的蘭花市場可以有另外一個基地在美國。這個基地剛好台糖跟我們的聯盟結合，我相信兩邊──美國、我們臺南未來的花卉產業基地……我也要拜託部長，4月7號你沒辦法下去，因為你在處理關稅的問題，所以要跟你報告，讓你可以接上。花卉產業園區對我們臺南太重要，我們當時從過去111年掛牌一直到現在，我一直追，掛牌的時候我也去到現場，當時是吉仲過去，因為吉仲是主委。我們一直希望它不只掛牌，還有量能，所謂量能就是預算跟人力，好不容易我們原本預計農業部升格之後，它的整個組織編制就可以加進去，變成三級，可是沒有辦法，它容納不進去，所以最後我們用花卉試驗所去結合，變成四級。那天也有請人事處去處理，一個月內希望能夠把這個事情……行政院都核准，我也會追，一個月……"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的支持。"],["陳委員亭妃：你如果沒有先把編制處理好，你的整個計畫是沒辦法核定的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：你計畫核定之後，我們當下也說了，5月份，我們希望能夠做環評的預先委託招標案，還有我們的開發計畫要同步。當我們編制過了之後，整個計畫核准，他們就可以處理了，無縫接軌。部長，這個部分很重要，因為當天你沒有去，所以我把這個結論跟您報告。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：還有另外一個就是我們的芒果，本來4月9號已經有召開專家會議，但是因為還有一些細節，那我也尊重啦，所以4月15號還要再召開一次。我跟你說，整個都「酥花」了啦，而且每一個果都是「空砲彈」，那一看其實都知道，這次的天氣實在是太恐怖了。"],["陳部長駿季：我也有去現場看過。"],["陳委員亭妃：我告訴你，那個冷熱沒這麼久的啦！一下冷、一下熱，拖這麼久的時間，我們人都受不了，更何況是天氣，所有在第一線種植的農民都說，從來沒看過這種情形。我們也看過酪梨，其實酪梨因為有早開。"],["陳部長駿季：早中晚的啦。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，有早出、早生，還有中生跟晚生，所以你們說可能要拉一點時間，這個我接受，因為每個狀態不一樣，可是芒果真的不同，這一次完全全軍覆沒，所以4月15號，拜託不要再拖了。"],["陳部長駿季：好，了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分再拜託。然後還有18間農會的部分，我們當天都已經配對好了，誰處理誰、誰處理誰都配對好了，謝謝經濟委員會蔡易餘召委給我們這個機會，立法院的經濟委員會給18家農會都做了配對，就是說什麼農會找哪一個單位、哪一個農會找哪一個單位都配對好了，我們希望大家可以照這樣的程序下去進行，不論是現在農業面對國際競爭或是國內，我們都可以讓農民安心，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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美股大漲我就請教 你剛才已經說了但是我還是請教 再說一遍好了是不是從此我們台灣的股市從此過上幸福美滿的日子一路往上攀升會這樣說嗎"},{"start":93.181,"end":118.198,"text":"要我回答嗎我剛剛也在講就是說金融市場他很顧忌的就是不確定性那所以也就是說這三個月給他緩衝因為這三個月他的結果是什麼還不曉得所以基本上整個的市場還是會籠罩在不確定性"},{"start":119.038,"end":135.89,"text":"所以不確定就不會一路往上衝因為他可能會做某些就也許有些時候會上去但是也許有些時候風吹草動的時候他又會下來所以不會就說現在美國要的資源不都滿足了啊他現在要的就是他這個財政部長講說640幾億的貿易逆差其實也從美國的資料算是739億那我算這個來講的話來講的話"},{"start":148.619,"end":166.973,"text":"台灣雖然現在90天裡面暫時豁免但是還是要課10%喔但是原來是1.7%中間就差8.3%8.3%是什麼概念我們去美國多少一年的輸出多少去年1100多億1100多億我們乘以8.3%大概90幾億美金折合台幣3000億所以從現在開始"},{"start":178.39,"end":182.274,"text":"他雖然把我們說要暫時90天 暫時WAVE掉暫時免除32%可是我們關稅仍然多付3000多億給美國"},{"start":190.015,"end":193.297,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們出口出去的產品他進口台灣的產品那這個要分大類可以分三種產品一種產品他就是他剛需他比較需要的"},{"start":210.109,"end":224.142,"text":"那需要的話 那這個就是說我沒有時間 只能聽你分析喔你現在就跟我講這個數字對不對啦對 這個呢 這個就是說你講的就是說是最嚴重的時候沒有 最嚴重就是這個數字在這裡喔好 來來來這個再確定一下喔他講說75國戰死後面 有沒有報告台灣 確定"},{"start":233.051,"end":260.252,"text":"他這個七十五國就應該是有包含了沒有應該還是確定這個我不曉得莊部長要不要確定一下七十五國有沒有包含台灣確定沒有他是講七十五國有去表達跟美國去協商那至於後來我們剛剛有講那個白宮的秘書有華爾街日報有他有表達他有直接就說除了中國以外"},{"start":260.852,"end":275.926,"text":"其他的國家 可增基本的關稅就加增10%的基本關稅可是他這次靠的是全國全世界是一百八十幾個國家欸不是只有只有只有七七七只有八十個國家不是欸他靠的是一百八十幾個國家"},{"start":276.707,"end":296.777,"text":"就全部的國家它是加徵10%的關稅另外有其他大概57個國家是加徵到另外有加一個4月9號以後是高於10的11到50%的一個對等關稅這個部分還有加25%的還有加25%的25%的那個是232的貿易條款裡面所以它也有一些暫時豁免的一些部分是"},{"start":304.315,"end":310.272,"text":"沒有 所以我就問你 你還沒有給我答案嘛台灣是不是確定在這75個豁免國家裡面 有沒有"},{"start":313.955,"end":335.323,"text":"美國新聞歷史所發布的就是它有證實這個部分確實是所有國家徵收百分之十的九十天的期間所有國家加徵百分之十的關稅那當然中國不在裡面啦是就是確定嘛就中國大陸不在裡面我們在裡面根據它這樣的證實好那現在我們現在來講說我們的進口從美國進口我們要零關稅這樣子稅損多少"},{"start":344.271,"end":364.799,"text":"至於零關稅這個部分根據總統也提到說從零關稅開始去跟他們去做談判那至於最後是不是所有的貨品是不是零關稅我想我們的貿易談判的工作小組他會去做模擬各種方式所以他不知道這個部分我們先跟報告的就是說我們知道去年的我們從美國進口的一個"},{"start":367.02,"end":368.183,"text":"4百多億美金客徵對美國徵收的關稅是7.5億美金"},{"start":376.657,"end":397.772,"text":"7.5億美金美國的計算7.5億美金但是裡面很多農產品對農民的損失對農民的壓力非常大的這個部分當然產業主管機關會去衡量第三個部分各縣市政府都希望財政部給他降稅"},{"start":401.535,"end":419.768,"text":"這個時間總裁也講了現在不穩定喔還不穩定喔沒有因此走上一個幸福快樂的日子還沒有喔還沒有到not ready yet你這個怎麼回應各地方政府希望能夠降稅降你的營所稅或降什麼稅whatever"},{"start":420.706,"end":443.48,"text":"有沒有可能這個部分對於有關的產業供應鏈的一個支持方案行政院已經提出了那支持方案裡面的一些項目或有沒有減稅這一項沒有減稅這一項沒有減稅這一項租稅的部分第一個租稅部分產創條例裡面有相關的一些減稅的優惠以及我們今天也我們也同時提到在我們的報告也提到"},{"start":443.94,"end":469.558,"text":"如果廠商受到或者民眾受到這個衝擊的話那稅可以申請延分期繳納分期繳納或者延後繳納沒有減稅這個所以沒有減稅這個選項啦所以地方政府是白搭的啦白講的啦好不好那我再請教這個彭主委啊台灣的股市過去幾天是不是已經進入休市了是不是"},{"start":470.763,"end":494.285,"text":"當然沒有,我們過去其實兩天交易量其實非常正常熊市是看你的跌幅啊不是那個當然是比如說剛才像今天就反映的跌幅超過120了對,當然比如說學理上有一個所謂的熊市的定義不過熊市還是要看它實際上的狀況我們看今天的情況如果說回復以外說按照那個定義其實上可能還不到那個程度"},{"start":496.499,"end":517.276,"text":"其實從去年的七月中到今年的一月初啊就已經跌了22.9%那時候老實講 從去年中到今年初如果按照20%的一個講法就是熊死了所以好 那今天這樣子活著暫時豁免90%要讓有他人立場 你有你立場"},{"start":518.69,"end":534.117,"text":"從此台灣的股市是不是一路順利往上走當然金管會不會去預測未來的走勢那我想說因為他是充分的反應我想各位如果有比較過過去這個台灣的產業結構還跟國際股市的發展台灣在這三天確實是"},{"start":539.999,"end":551.665,"text":"應該是有疊的比較多那實際上我覺得應該製作事實的回覆我想這個部分應該是好請兩位長官先回座我再請那個楊總裁楊總裁啊是你在這裡回覆一個立委講說外匯存底92%馬美債這是確定嗎對不對這個沒有確定"},{"start":566.493,"end":574.095,"text":"那你都公開回答了不是我公開我是我們的副總裁副總裁講錯了但是是確實他是說錯了"},{"start":576.374,"end":580.836,"text":"還是多少我們應該又說是8以前我就講過啦我們的美債大概有八成以上八成 八十二八十一 八十二 八十九八成 八成以上因為我也不能就是說跟你講是一個確定的數據為什麼呢因為匯率呢匯率都時常在變動所以這個比例也都會時常在變動那大概85左右可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":604.775,"end":607.096,"text":"我只能說是80%以上現在有一種講法說川普為什麼把這次跟世界這樣子"},{"start":626.343,"end":632.752,"text":"開這個手術大刀就是希望能夠解決他的美債的問題因為美債超過36兆美金這個傢伙對吧"},{"start":638.974,"end":657.322,"text":"對啦 也可以這麼說但是我覺得比較準確的說法是說他要把美國的政府的deficit就是他的budget deficit要能夠下降下來對嘛 就是介紹他的美債嘛那以現在來講的話日本或者大陸都在拋售美債"},{"start":665.846,"end":687.577,"text":"500億最近有一個數字跑出來了雖然還沒有到最後Final這樣子因為他今年6月美國6.5兆的美金6.5兆國庫券再到期了被要求轉入長債長債高達30年50年那利率更低有的甚至要0"},{"start":688.437,"end":708.857,"text":"一百年常債常債三十年期的多現在比十年期的多還高啊怎麼有可能就是說要那個把它到一百年那然後呢是零利率這個是不可能的不可能那不可能外面有媒體這樣報導我覺得這是不可能的好最後一點我們就請潘主委上來請那個楊總裁下去請"},{"start":715.171,"end":742.926,"text":"本身有一個小問題問我就可以下去了不少出入股市者怕被斷頭用保單 用信貸來支應萬一股市再跌要像這樣 stable 完全穩定會不會產生系統性的風暴儘管會怎麼來對這些人這些人很多是剛加入股市的特別是年輕的剛大學畢業或者在學生 在校學生"},{"start":743.886,"end":761.623,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實我們非常關注這個問題我們也隨時請交易所關注這個比如說他們這些的profile長什麼樣我們發現這個段頭的大概是七成大概就是40到69歲的族群是占最多數那其實這個部分當然人數最近比較多"},{"start":762.444,"end":791.479,"text":"但是我覺得我們這個部分呢還在一個可控我們是會提供一些盡量提供一些協助什麼協助什麼協助像我們第一波的方案裡面也提到就是說再來就是我們希望可以比如說這個補這個擔保品的部分呢能夠更多元我們市場上反映很多問題我們立刻去解決當然有些系統上的問題不是一下就能解決不過我們這部分呢我們就盡量去協助這些因為這個不確定因素而遭受一時之間沒辦法融通的這些"},{"start":792.379,"end":802.61,"text":"現在目前看起來還不至於我們還是真的非常非常的關心這個問題我們持續的就請教育所這邊會關注 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":319,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時54分）謝謝主席。有請央行的楊總裁、財政部的莊部長，以及金管會的彭主委，三位長官一起。"],["主席：楊總裁、莊部長、彭主委。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴召委早。"],["賴委員士葆：三位長官好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員你好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：最近這個禮拜都是川普周嘛！大家大街小巷談著川普，本來大家看起來都不知道該怎麼辦，大家看起來一副1930年代，1929、1930年那時候的美國總統Hoover，那時候也是做兩件事情，一件是關稅，引起關稅的大戰；第二個是升息，這點川普比他聰明，川普現在準備降息。所以那時候開始就來一個大蕭條，美國的股市花了25年才讓它回到原來的水準，所以這個東西很慘烈，看起來很慘烈。現在好不容易川普暫停90天，只課10%，美股大漲。你剛才已經說了，但我還是想請教，你再說一遍好了，是不是我們臺灣的股市從此過上幸福美滿的日子，一路往上攀升？可以這樣說嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：要我回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：是，請你回答。"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也在講，金融市場很顧忌的就是不確定性，所以也就是這三個月給它緩衝，因為這三個月它的結果是什麼還不曉得，所以基本上整個市場還是會籠罩在不確定性，除非……"],["賴委員士葆：所以不確定？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不確定性就不會一路往上衝，是這個意思？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為它可能會做……也許有些時候會上去，但是也許有些風吹草動的時候，它又會下來，所以不會……"],["賴委員士葆：現在美國要的幾乎我們都滿足了，他的財政部長講說六百四十幾億的貿易逆差，其實從美國的資料算是739億，我算這個來講的話，臺灣雖然現在90天裡面暫時豁免，但還是要課10%喔！原來是1.7%，中間就差8.3%，8.3%是什麼概念？我們去年一年對美國的輸出多少？一千一百多億嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：一千一百多億我們乘以8.3%，大概是九十幾億美金，折合臺幣3,000億，所以從現在開始，他雖然在90天內把我們暫時waive掉，暫時免除32%，可是我們仍然多付三千多億的關稅給美國，我這樣講對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：我這樣講對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們出口出去的產品，它進口臺灣的產品，這個產品可以分成三大類，一種產品是它的剛需，是它比較需要的，既然是需要的話，出口商跟……"],["賴委員士葆：我沒有時間聽你分析，你現在就跟我講這個數字對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。這個就是說，你講的是最嚴重的時候是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有最嚴重，數字就是在這裡啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：不，這是最嚴重的，因為……。"],["賴委員士葆：來、來、來，這個再確定一下。他講75國暫時豁免，有沒有確定包括臺灣？"],["楊總裁金龍：這75國應該是有包含我們臺灣。"],["賴委員士葆：是應該還是確定？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不曉得。"],["賴委員士葆：莊部長要不要確定一下？75國有沒有包括臺灣？確定沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：當時他是講75國有去表達要跟美國協商。"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：至於後來我們剛剛有講，白宮的秘書，就是華爾街日報有報導，他直接就說除了中國以外，其他的國家加徵10%基本的關稅。"],["賴委員士葆：可是他這次課了全世界一百八十幾個國家耶，不是只有80個國家耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，全部的國家是加徵10%的關稅。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：另外有其他大概57個國家在4月9號要另外加徵高於10%，也就是11%到50%的對等關稅。"],["賴委員士葆：還有加25%的啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：什麼是加25%？"],["賴委員士葆：還有加25%的。"],["莊部長翠雲：25%的那個是在232貿易條款裡面的，所以它也有一些暫時豁免的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我就問你，但你還沒有給我答案。"],["莊部長翠雲：你要什麼答案？"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣是不是確定在這75個豁免國家裡面？有沒有？你要確定啊！這個有沒有確定？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，照美國新聞秘書所發布的，它有證實這個部分，確實是所有國家徵收10%，90天的期間所有國家加徵10%的關稅。"],["賴委員士葆：好，所以就是確定。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，中國不在裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：就是確定嘛！就是中國大陸不在裡面，但我們在裡面。"],["莊部長翠雲：根據它這樣的證實。"],["賴委員士葆：好，現在我們來講我們的進口，從美國進口我們要零關稅，這樣的稅損是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：至於零關稅這個部分，根據總統表示要從零關稅開始跟他們談判，但最後所有的貨品是不是零關稅，我想我們貿易談判的工作小組會去模擬各種方案。"],["賴委員士葆：所以還不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們現在報告的是，我們知道去年我們從美國進口的量……"],["賴委員士葆：有四百多億美金。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，四百多億美金。課徵的、對美國徵收的關稅是7.5億美金。"],["賴委員士葆：7.5億美金？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：金額不多啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：美國計算出來是7.5億美金。"],["賴委員士葆：但是裡面有很多農產品，對農民的損失、對農民的壓力是非常大的。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分當然要由產業主管機關去衡量。"],["賴委員士葆：第三個部分，各縣市政府都希望財政部降稅，總裁也講了，現在還不穩定，沒有因此走上一個幸福快樂的日子，還沒有喔，還沒有到、not ready，這個你怎麼回應？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：各地方政府希望能夠降稅，降你的營所稅或降你的什麼稅whatever，有沒有可能？財政部有沒有評估？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，對於有關的產業供應鏈的支持方案行政院已經提出了，支持方案裡面的一些項目或金額等等可以……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有減稅這一項？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有減稅這一項。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有減稅這一項？"],["莊部長翠雲：租稅的部分，第一個，產創條例裡面有相關的減稅優惠，以及我們今天也同時在報告提到，如果廠商或民眾受到這個衝擊的話，稅可以申請延、分期繳納。"],["賴委員士葆：分期繳納或者延後繳納，沒有減稅這個選項，所以地方政府是白搭了、白講了。","我再請教彭主委，臺灣的股市過去幾天是不是已經進入熊市了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然沒有，我們過去兩天的交易量其實非常正常，而且也……"],["賴委員士葆：熊市是看你的跌幅，不是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然是……比如說今天就反映了……"],["賴委員士葆：跌幅超過20%了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，比如說學理上對所謂的熊市有一個定義，不過是不是熊市還是要看實際上的狀況，我們看今天的情況，如果有回復的話，按照那個定義，其實可能還不到那個程度。"],["賴委員士葆：其實從去年7月中到今年1月初就已經跌了22.9%，那個時候老實講，從去年中到今年初如果按照20%的講法就是熊市了。今天這樣暫時豁免90天，他有他的立場，你有你的立場，從此臺灣的股市是不是一路順利往上走？是不是可以這樣講？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，金管會不會去預測未來的走勢，我想……"],["賴委員士葆：要給人家信心啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，因為它是充分地反映，我想各位如果有比較過過去臺灣的產業結構，還有國際股市的發展，臺灣在這3天確實應該是有跌得比較多，我想這時候適時地回復應該是合理的。"],["賴委員士葆：請兩位長官先回座，我再請楊總裁。楊總裁，你在這裡回復一個立委說，外匯存底92%買美債，這個是確定的，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個沒有確定。"],["賴委員士葆：你都公開回答了！"],["楊總裁金龍：不是我公開，而是我們的副總裁。"],["賴委員士葆：副總裁講錯了？"],["楊總裁金龍：他確實是說錯了。"],["賴委員士葆：那是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們應該是八……以前我就講過了，我們的美債大概有八成以上。"],["賴委員士葆：八成是81%、82%還是89%？有沒有85%？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，八成以上，因為我也不能跟你講一個確定的數據，為什麼呢？因為匯率都時常在變動，所以這個比例也是時常在變動。"],["賴委員士葆：好，大概是在85%左右，可以這樣講吧？我猜85%左右，可以這樣猜嗎？沒有離譜啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我也不能說是，只能說是80%以上。"],["賴委員士葆：85%也是80%以上。"],["楊總裁金龍：80%以上。"],["賴委員士葆：現在有一種講法是，川普這一次為什麼要對世界開這個手術大刀，就是希望能夠解決他們美債的問題，因為美債超過36兆美金。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這個講法對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，也可以這麼說，但我覺得比較準確的說法是，他要把美國政府的budget deficit降下來。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！就是減少美債嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：準確的應該是這樣說啦！"],["賴委員士葆：以現在來講，日本或大陸都在拋售美債，500億，最近有一個數字跑出來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：雖然還沒有到最後（final），因為今年6月美國6.5兆美金的國庫券到期，被要求轉入長債，長債高達30年、50年，那樣利率更低，有的甚至是到0%、100年。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，它30年期的長債現在都比10年期的還高，怎麼有可能讓它到100年，然後是零利率？這個是不可能的事。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那不可能，因為有媒體這樣報導。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得這是不可能的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一點要請彭主委上來，請楊總裁下去。","彭主委，我有一個小問題，問完就可以下去了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不少出入股市者怕被斷頭，用保單、用信貸來支應，萬一股市再跌，因為現在還沒有stable，還沒有完全穩定，會不會產生系統性的風暴？金管會怎麼對這些人……這些人很多是剛加入股市的，特別是年輕的、剛大學畢業或是在校學生。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實我們非常關注這個問題，我們也隨時請交易所關注他們這些人的profile長怎麼樣，我們發覺這些斷頭的有七成大概都是40歲到69歲的，這個族群是占最多數。其實這個部分的人數最近比較多，但是我覺得這個部分還是可控的，我們是會儘量提供一些協助，像第一波的……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼協助？"],["彭主任委員金隆：像第一波的方案也提到，比如擔保品的部分能夠更多元，市場上反映很多問題，我們就立刻去解決，當然有些系統的問題不是一下就能解決，不過這部分我們就儘量去協助，因為不確定因素而遭受一時資金沒辦法融通的這些客戶。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你認為會不會產生系統性的風暴？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在目前看起來還不至於。"],["賴委員士葆：under control？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：我覺得你需要對外跟這些年輕人多教育。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是非常、非常關心這個問題，會持續請交易所關注，謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：好，下一位請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712df0233f15acde054803d2cc4ed61730772c2a43b2ce79c508b571ebbc9e398835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:56:28 - 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},{"start":233.695,"end":260.665,"text":"靠近海邊 靠近港口嘛那這個說是什麼因為要去看病會經過那裡嘛後來這一位就被就被羈押了 對不對這種案子常見嗎當然這個具體個案是檢察官法官去判斷啦當他靠近了這個告警範圍的時候那檢察官或法官要去判斷這個時候他有沒有逃亡的可能性就是說具體個案檢察官法官要去判斷可是他"},{"start":261.65,"end":287.59,"text":"他應該也沒有跟檢察官或法官講說他會經過那個路徑嘛我們在給他設定的條件的時候他就不能夠接近告警的範圍啊他就檢察官在設定條件的時候就會告警他不能夠譬如說他有被限制出境出海他就不能夠靠近那個港口機場跟海岸線那有沒有這種帶這些科技這個監控載具的人啊他就是白白白白啦"},{"start":288.834,"end":301.886,"text":"他的罪其實也不重然後呢也沒有羈押的必要那他就這個法官或檢察官就說那你就帶著這個那他也同意也住在他家他沒事就玩一下"},{"start":303.936,"end":323.299,"text":"跳出這個範圍就叫一下然後這個警政署這些員警們就嗶嗶嗶然後就要去看他一下這種案子多不多各位報告他其實科技監控有一定的機制包括提醒或三級告警的機制他有逐漸的提升他的告警的這個層級所以他在個案發生的時候"},{"start":323.88,"end":341.422,"text":"我們的監控人員會去判斷他提升到哪一個層級的告警機制了我們會反映給甲官或法官做具體的判斷並不是說一有告警就馬上要去測他的監控我是說會不會到最後這個人因為他白目嘛就沒事就這樣玩一下然後到最後就變狼來了那大家就鬆懈"},{"start":343.304,"end":357.41,"text":"事實上我們監控中心會不斷地打電話跟他監控甚至提醒他如果真的有惡意或者相關的疏失行為會提醒他當再犯到某一個程度的時候他就會把告警的層級往上提升他高度逃亡可能性再做處理"},{"start":358.03,"end":386.872,"text":"市長這個在報告裡頭提到說高院參訪了之後有給了一些改善建議嘛對去你們那個中心那具體的改善建議有哪些可以讓我們知道當然就是告警的觸發啦我們現在告警觸發會接下來產生一些相關的通報的問題嘛會導致檢察官法官他不願意使用他因為像如果委員剛剛所提的如果頻頻的觸發那個告警條件的話檢察官法官他可能三天半夜就會被受到影響嘛"},{"start":387.973,"end":405.793,"text":"也許他危險性就不高他逃犯風險也不高但頻繁的觸發這個告警條件的話會讓使用者就是說甲冠法官不願意使用所以在參訪的過程當中很多人會反映說這告警的條件是不是要再做一些檢討所以我們後來我們就對告警觸發的條件我們做一些檢討第一個"},{"start":407.455,"end":433.081,"text":"處罰之後接下來要通報通報的程序要不要做簡化以前你通報程序太複雜檢察官法官太不願意使用所以從前端的告警處罰條件的優化跟後端告警通報做一些簡化讓檢察官法官願意使用這套系統所以就有可能這一個當事人住所附近的派出所或分局就會有一個同步的事情嗎那這個"},{"start":434.361,"end":460.949,"text":"因為到時候實際上要真正去看的應該就是員警了 對吧這倒是不一定啦 個案的時候倒是有檢察官法官去決定要如何的監控這一個被告他也許如同委員講的 會叫員警可以我們辦法的規定 員警就可以去處理也許我們法警 我們地檢署或法院法警也可以去處理這是具體個案法官檢察官去判斷對 那這些員警啊"},{"start":462.06,"end":474.532,"text":"因為我看這個警政署的報告裡頭他們也蠻支持這個案子的那支持這個案子可是我真的看起來如果這些人真的有白目的我們這些員警也會疲於奔命"},{"start":476.124,"end":496.451,"text":"各位報告所以我們現在另外有科技監控有一種叫做電子報道的模式它就透過個案的手機拍照或定位你就不要到派出所去報道了那減少我們遠景基層遠景的人力的負荷所以在整個科技社會監控上我們有做一些優化了那報告裡頭也有提到這一個夜間"},{"start":497.811,"end":523.44,"text":"就提到說這個葉堅因為他在原來的居所他住的地方這個逃亡的機率可能比較小之類的所以那個警示的層級就往下降是不是這是什麼概念他是一些告警的程序跟警示他做一些處理我們搭配其他的因為我們的科技監控有很多譬如說居家讀取器或相關東西他就會用其他的方式去代替監控"},{"start":524.64,"end":546.488,"text":"不一定一定要使用這個觸發這個告警我們現在有些個案手機其實我們就可以知道他的所在地了他有些他雖然觸發了告警但是我們用其他的搭配的科技方式知道他的確沒有離開他的入所地這時候我們也不要去進一步到三級的告警機制去做處理來打擾假官或法官OK好那"},{"start":548.638,"end":563.228,"text":"所以我再問一個,那過去曾經搞過這些破壞,他們的大概是哪一類的人就是說什麼刑期啦,或什麼有錢的啦,還是什麼年齡的啦,大概是哪一類的人機會比較高"},{"start":564.108,"end":581.892,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛跟委員報告就是目前四年來唯一一件他是有破壞繳還的那個個案唯一一件啦齁但那個個案本身因為他在我就無方無法對講但是這麼一件所以統計上還沒有辦法給給委員一個統計上的一個一件所以無法統計好 了解 謝謝好 謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":473,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時56分）請法務部跟司法院。"],["主席：麻煩次長跟副秘書長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：早。"],["王委員義川：副秘書長好。請問一下，我們的科技載具按照你們的報告大概分為四大類，手鐶、腳鐶、個案手機跟居家讀取器，按照你們的了解，這四個裡頭曾經被破壞過最多的是哪一種？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，據我們了解是手機。"],["王委員義川：手機？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：好，手機是法務部買的？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，四年來發生過最具體的個案是剪斷腳鐶，而手機的部分，當然因為它是一個消耗品，很容易消耗，沒有錯。但具體破壞的話，破壞的載具是腳鐶。"],["王委員義川：這個是很高科技的，品質不容易好，是不是？還是怎樣？為什麼那麼容易壞掉？"],["黃次長謀信：其實也不容易，因為四年來就這麼一次，後來我們也做了一些補漏，所以目前為止就沒有再發生對腳鐶的破壞了。"],["王委員義川：好，現在有使用科技監控這些設備，最近這一、兩年，有沒有人是明明給了這些設備，後來人還是不見了？"],["黃次長謀信：委員你講的是戴載具脫逃的嗎？"],["王委員義川：對。"],["黃次長謀信：戴著載具之後脫逃的？"],["王委員義川：對。"],["黃次長謀信：目前沒有。"],["王委員義川：沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：他只要戴在手上、戴在腳上……"],["黃次長謀信：目前比較具體的個案是沒有施行科技監控後逃亡的。"],["王委員義川：好，所以現在只要戴在手上、戴在腳上，他任何移動在高檢的中心都看得到？"],["黃次長謀信：當然、當然。"],["王委員義川：都看得到？"],["黃次長謀信：因為它畢竟是一個科技設備，它有收訊的問題，除非它是因為科技設備本身收訊的極限，可能會有一些……"],["王委員義川：好，為什麼會有收訊的極限呢？"],["黃次長謀信：因為它……"],["王委員義川：他有住所嘛，對不對？他今天跟你們講：我今天要去看病。他也要跟你們講嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：我今天要去哪裡剪頭髮，也要跟你們講嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：不在原來設定的範圍內，系統就會警示，應該是這樣，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：他一離開你們的範圍就會警示，所以他脫逃的機會真的不高，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，其實是不高，除非就是我剛才講的，它畢竟是一個高科技設備，它有收訊的死角，但我們不能對外公開，我們有一些方法去防制它，另外還有一些複合式的科技方法去監控他，當某一種科技收訊不好的時候會有其他的補救方式去補救。"],["王委員義川：那我舉比較極端的例子，他就說要住在山上，那裡就沒收訊啊！"],["黃次長謀信：當然他要住在哪裡是檢察官、法官在做科技監控設備時候給他的一個指示，他不能夠自行決定，是檢察官、法官決定的。"],["王委員義川：就是不羈押他，然後給了這個地點，檢察官或法官覺得可以。"],["黃次長謀信：對，那是檢察官命他應遵守的事項。"],["王委員義川：好，最近有這種靠近海邊、靠近港口的狀況，說什麼因為要去看病會經過那裡，後來這一位就被羈押了，這種案子常見嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：當然具體個案是檢察官、法官去判斷，當他靠近了告警範圍的時候，檢察官或法官要去判斷這個時候他有沒有逃亡的可能性，就是具體個案檢察官、法官要去判斷。"],["王委員義川：可是他應該也沒有跟檢察官或法官講他會經過那個路徑，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：我們給他設定條件以後，他就不能夠接近告警的範圍，檢察官在設定條件的時候就會告誡他，譬如他限制出境、出海，他就不能夠靠近港口、機場跟海岸線。"],["王委員義川：那有沒有這種戴這些科技監控載具的人就是白目，他的罪其實也不重，也沒有羈押的必要，法官或檢察官要他戴著這個，他也同意，也住在他家，他沒事就玩一下，跳出這個範圍機器就「嗶嗶嗶」叫一下，然後員警們就要去看他一下，這種案子多不多？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，其實科技監控有一定的機制，包括提醒或三級告警的機制，會逐漸提升告警的層級，所以在個案發生的時候，我們的監控人員會去判斷要提升到哪一個層級的告警機制，我們會反映給檢察官或法官做具體的判斷，並不是說一有告警就馬上要去測他的監控。"],["王委員義川：我知道，我是說會不會這個人因為白目，沒事就這樣玩一下，最後就變狼來了，那大家就鬆懈了？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上，我們監控中心會不斷的打電話監控、提醒他，如果真的有惡意或相關的疏失行為，會提醒他，當再犯到某一個程度的時候，中心就會把告警的層級往上提升，以高度逃亡之虞再做處理。"],["王委員義川：好。次長，報告裡提到高院參訪你們那個中心之後，有給了一些改善建議，那具體的改善建議有哪些可以讓我們知道？"],["黃次長謀信：當然就是告警的觸發，現在告警觸發接下來會產生一些相關的通報問題，那會導致檢察官、法官不願意使用，就像委員剛剛所提的，如果頻頻的觸發那個告警條件的話，檢察官、法官可能三更半夜就受到影響，也許他危險性不高，逃亡風險也不高，但頻繁的觸發告警條件的話，會讓使用者就是檢察官、法官不願意使用，所以在參訪過程當中，很多人反映告警的條件是不是要再做一些檢討，所以我們後來就告警觸發的條件做了一些檢討，這是第一個。觸發之後接下來要通報，通報的程序要不要簡化？以前通報程序太複雜，檢察官、法官也不願意使用，所以從前端告警觸發條件的優化到後端告警通報做一些簡化，讓檢察官、法官願意使用這套系統。"],["王委員義川：所以就有可能當事人住所附近的派出所或分局會有同步的事情，因為實際上要真正去看的應該就是員警了，對吧？"],["黃次長謀信：這倒是不一定，個案的時候倒是由檢察官、法官去決定要如何監控被告，也許如同委員講的，我們的辦法就規定，員警就可以去處理，也許地檢署或法院的法警也可以去處理，這是具體個案，由法官、檢察官去判斷。"],["王委員義川：對，我看警政署的報告，他們也蠻支持這個案子的，可是看起來，如果這些人真的有白目的，我們的員警也會疲於奔命。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，所以我們現在另外有科技監控，有一組叫做電子報到的模式，就是透過個案的手機拍照或定位，就不要到派出所去報到了，減少我們基層員警的人力負荷。所以在整個科技設備監控上，我們有做一些優化了。"],["王委員義川：好，那報告裡也提到夜間他在原來的居所逃亡的機率可能比較小諸如此類的，所以那個警示的層級就往下降，是不是？這是什麼概念？"],["黃次長謀信：它是針對一些告警的程序跟警示做一些處理，我們搭配其他的，因為我們的科技監控很多，譬如居家讀取器或相關東西，我們就會用其他方式去代替監控，不一定一定要使用觸發告警，現在有些根據個案的手機，其實我們就可以知道他的所在地，有些雖然觸發了告警，但是我們搭配其他的科技方式，知道他的確沒有離開他的住所地，這時候我們也不要進入三級的告警機制去做處理，來打擾檢察官或法官。"],["王委員義川：好。最後我再問一個就是過去曾經搞過破壞的大概是哪一類的人？就是什麼刑期的或者有錢的啦，還是什麼年齡的？大概是哪一類的人機會比較高？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛剛跟委員報告，目前4年來唯一一件是破壞腳鐶的，那是唯一一件，但那個個案本身因為還在……我就不方便講，但是就這麼一件，所以統計上還沒有辦法給委員一個答案。"],["王委員義川：一件所以無法統計，好，了解，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712c591df63454a0da5f179c558939ff98972c2a43b2ce79c50c103fba9c3d2f6a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:53:19 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他們會找我您有沒有公告這個受影響的話單一窗口是您"},{"start":149.247,"end":165.244,"text":"我們這邊的表達是第一我們還是希望中研院應該是要來讓同仁知道說不會有問題中研院會來協助解決解決的單一窗口在這裡這樣的做法可以嗎"},{"start":166.906,"end":189.658,"text":"有沒有問題事實上我們院裡面也不會知道因為我們被凍了十二十一年多所以我們儘量我們希望儘量讓同仁不要擔心但你的信送出去是說你們都受到影響沒有關係我們現在就直接來看問題嘛您剛剛提到凍結的案既然這麼重要請問中研院有沒有送解凍報告過來"},{"start":190.858,"end":218.148,"text":"我們正在進行這個解凍的因為我們要根據立法院決議我們要能夠送出這個預算執行情形我們這三個單位預算執行情形我們仍然在進行當中我們院會的時候已經很早就已經決議了總統也已經公告了到現在還在處理零份事實上不只中研院所有的教安委員會的部會一份解凍報告都沒有送進來"},{"start":219.048,"end":240.575,"text":"那你們呢 事實上你們的同意片事實上你們也提到嘛 就是凍結11億其實只要提出專案報告 我們同意就可以解凍我相信我們的林警召委也一定會來全力協助因為我們的專業同仁 我們都希望不要受到影響我們學術研究很重要嘛那你們如果不提出來 我們怎麼有辦法解凍呢"},{"start":241.815,"end":262.639,"text":"那什麼時候會提出 很好我們會依規定提出來依規定時間提出來規定是誰規定 您是院長啊所以是誰規定立法院規定的時間提出來欸對不起我們沒有說什麼時候規定送出來喔這一點不好意思喔 院長你講清楚喔這個球不在我們這裡喔所以是林一錦 張偉有跟您規定說是什麼時候要送出來嗎沒有 張偉搖頭啊我們沒有任何規定說什麼時候"},{"start":270.168,"end":297.4,"text":"立法院決議是要我們做預算執行情形的報告我們要把預算執行情形整清楚之後才能夠抓到報告因為總共有十多億我們不能做十頁報告一頁解凍一億所以我們要做詳盡的報告我們33個所中心就需要一點時間避免出錯所以院長您可不可以收回您剛剛的說法我們沒有規定您什麼時候才能送進來喔"},{"start":298.4,"end":322.508,"text":"沒有規定的話我們就要立法院的慣例處理慣例就是ASAPAs soon as possible這是考驗大家的這個團結力量嘛是沒錯那我們也是所以我問您什麼時候可以準備好啊民眾院長你沒有規劃一個時間同仁怎麼來依循呢我們現在預計我們快完成了預計在幾個禮拜之內我們就可以送幾個禮拜之內好幾個禮拜"},{"start":326.149,"end":346.384,"text":"兩個禮拜 二十個禮拜 三十個禮拜不會是兩三個禮拜一兩個禮拜到兩三個禮拜就好謝謝 謝謝院長同時喔 其實我也理解啦因為院會的金額真的比較高11億嘛 我們大家都有共識接下來我們的這個我們作為專案報告我們全力來協助但是委員會凍結1250萬只要書面報告就可以解凍為什麼到現在也不交報告"},{"start":351.327,"end":371.168,"text":"我們希望說兩個合在一起這一點部分我們確實是有討論過奇怪你發信的時候就發到全體同仁然後呢你每一個人你都來說影響你解凍的時候能解的趕快解啊你為什麼突然你講的好像很緊張結果呢你處理的時候能先處理的為什麼不先處理呢那個可以處理部分的金額事實上非常少"},{"start":375.371,"end":399.524,"text":"1250萬所以1250萬非常少 對嗎我們請所有中央醫院的研究同仁都理解了我們院長的標準就是1250萬非常少可以先不送我們自然難行的部分是一些沒辦法留用的部分那其他的我們照委員講的時候我們已經盡量在處理好 那這個我是希望您先送就能送因為這個東西到委員會報告不用專案報告 好不好"},{"start":401.365,"end":419.776,"text":"太好了委員講不用專案報告我說的是委員會的1250萬我們下禮拜就送不用專案報告委員會的1250萬沒問題我們交報告就可以張委員理解嘛我們這個本來就是書宣報告就可以啊所以請跟同仁了解一下好不好這個是本來就是不用專案報告的"},{"start":420.436,"end":431.602,"text":"這部分是沒有問題但是跟委員報告說我們現在最自然難行的就是一些被刪被凍的部分又不能留用那這是為什麼大家會覺得說沒辦法凍院長您要有動作否則大家會懷疑是不是有人不送現在呢連媒體都在報導了"},{"start":441.288,"end":461.417,"text":"行政院是不是在擋解凍報告但是你們是對總統府報告所以你們應該沒有這個壓力所以不要自己給自己壓力黨派委員會凍結的只需要提交書面報告即可解凍同仁如果有告訴你要專案報告才可以解凍那就是有問題你要調查一下所以委員會的立刻送進來好不好這個我們同意"},{"start":465.399,"end":480.556,"text":"好接著我想我來詢問一下幾個點現在中研院的院內的同仁要做AI的研究能不能下載Deep-Seek R1的模型到自己的電腦上面安全的運行可不可以"},{"start":482.377,"end":510.187,"text":"委員好我是資訊服務處處長陳寗志按照目前規定以不能下載為原則如果真的要下載的話他必須要做好資安管控措施對不起我剛剛講的不是下載APP喔不是下載應用喔是下載這個模型喔不行你確定嗎確定現在所有的學者都說下載模型單機運行是沒有問題的喔您確定我們現在的對談是一致的喔是的"},{"start":511.027,"end":523.355,"text":"下載模型研究不行需要做資安控管需要報備所以模型運行在自己的電腦上是有資安問題的我們現在列入紀錄喔這個是政府的規定"},{"start":524.415,"end":550.792,"text":"所有中國的軟體硬體我請您研究一下所有的規定我們的理解就是不能下載APP不能下載應用服務同時去註冊它的服務可能是有資安的疑慮的可能會有各自的問題模型本身有學術的意義所以請您稍微幫同仁了解一下第二點請問同仁可不可以研讀DeepSeek的開放論文"},{"start":551.993,"end":569.466,"text":"論文當然是可以的論文可以嘛所以我想其實相關的這種開放的心態對AI發展非常重要如果沒有問題的就應該讓同仁放手去研究他山之石可以攻錯不管是誰的我們都要好好來瞭解同時我想未來AI的發展應該還會前進我想請教院長您覺得AI的發展結束了嗎還是會繼續發展下去"},{"start":575.732,"end":594.577,"text":"當然會繼續發展下去沒錯所以我想發展跟監管跟風險都是要做平衡的那同時我也想衛生中心院院長在AI的發展方面有沒有跟其他部會來做合作跟速發部有沒有合作跟國科會有沒有合作跟國防中心的算力有沒有合作"},{"start":595.357,"end":617.459,"text":"當然有 當然有很多的interaction譬如說我們的算力主要是由國會的國網中心來support那我們現在也希望說組成全國的很多AI的專家一起來發展AI 而不是大家分散的我想AI是一個競賽我們希望我們大家不要做自幹"},{"start":618.24,"end":642.882,"text":"所以我們特別也覺得這個灌籃高手的合作精神很重要我們也一起來打贏這場AI的競賽我們跟各部會一起最後最後一個問題我想沒有電就沒有AI啦面對全球減碳的浪潮您提出了近零五支箭那請教一下院長這五支箭你有沒有發現缺了哪一支箭"},{"start":644.887,"end":668.865,"text":"這五支箭的部分是我們認為說是社會上討論比較少的我們提出來讓大家討論不是說我們要做社會上已經在討論已經在做的我們就不會放在五支箭裡面是這個意思那您覺得核能現在社會上有在做嗎有在討論那有在討論之間不需要我們來提醒說社會需要討論這件事情所以禁令五支箭不是要做的只是大家沒在講的你確定這是這個說法嗎是我們能夠做的"},{"start":671.727,"end":687.584,"text":"核能現在中文音樂沒有這樣的人才也沒有這樣的設備我們沒有辦法做核能的研究五字鍵每樣我們都有經費有人員有團隊集合全國力量在大力推行當中即使做核能中文音樂沒有辦法來做核能的研究"},{"start":691.104,"end":718.405,"text":"好 沒關係 我們都列入紀錄了我想我們問了全世界最優秀的AI包含Solnet 包含CHAIR GPT 4.5包含Gorak 3我們都問 如果作為國家最高的研究機關我們要做近零五支箭 五個項目我們應該要做什麼 很抱歉每一個AI都把核能 新核能的科技列進去結果您在這裡告訴我們中央醫院沒有能力來做這一塊的研究"},{"start":719.365,"end":738.297,"text":"我想這個人民 包含我們全世界所有的國家關注研發的 關注研究的 都會非常失望我希望中研院要秉持著中立跟學術研究的良心不要有意識形態跟政治性我最後一個問題 不好意思我們從來就沒有政治形態我們看到有一位無姓研究員到了民進黨中常會來進行報告"},{"start":748.863,"end":767.939,"text":"那提出了這個脫北入中的消息請問這個報告 院長 我們可以去哪裡下載我不知道 我不知道這件事情這是個別研究員 哪一位無線研究員這邊有很多新聞我不好意思講名字啊 在座同仁有沒有知道"},{"start":768.922,"end":797.783,"text":"有一位吳姓社會所的研究員有舉手啦 有知道沒有關係 這件事情我們會關於這個學術研究的中立性 獨立性我們希望院長能不能相關訊息了解一下那一些訊息回應到我們辦公室來可以嗎好 我們個別研究員的言論我們非常尊重不管任何言論我們希望眾議院是一個大家能夠秉持學術自由 言論自由的方向來做"},{"start":798.083,"end":811.156,"text":"但是他是以中研院研究員的身份出現在那裡而且有了一個單方面的結論所以我相信院長應該要能夠知道啦那當然我理解學術研究是自由的我們一起來捍衛謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":223,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時53分）謝謝主席，有請中研院院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長好。在這個會期開始，謝謝您有來我們的辦公室進行拜會，也有討論到這次的預算刪減，其實我也提到網路上有非常多的抹黑、造謠、假訊息，我們也看到中研院有發信給各個研究員，導致有非常多的研究員擔心自己的計畫受影響，甚至還有人擔心會失去工作。本席當時也有表示，因為我們的會談內容也都是完全透明的，都有逐字稿、都有上網，我也表示這樣的作法其實有可能會造成恐慌，我們希望中研院該做的應該是積極面對，並且遇到問題我們一起來協助同仁解決，並且我們一起來確保未來不會有這樣的狀況發生。本席想要請教，首先第一點，所謂的預算假設有人受到影響，你們現在有一個單一窗口讓大家來回報嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：有，我們有發信給同仁，假如有窒礙難行的部分，都可以向學術處、向副院長回報，對於各個不同的狀況，我們都盡力調配，這個部分我們已經儘量在做了。"],["葛委員如鈞：其實當時我也表示，老實說中研院的角色應該是要發信請同仁不要擔心，而不是我們遇到了問題，你們如果沒問題不用來找我，有問題的個別來找我，這會變成什麼？解決問題的部分大家都看不到，可是恐慌卻蔓延在全院。沒有關係，我是希望要有一個單一窗口，不需要各自去找，找誰效果也不一樣，你們有辦法做好統計嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：有。"],["葛委員如鈞：有哪些人受到影響，有沒有單一窗口？回答我有沒有單一窗口協助同仁。"],["陳處長建璋：學術處處長陳建璋……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，所以大家就是找學術處處長？"],["陳處長建璋：對，沒有錯。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以在這個信件裡面都有提到嗎？"],["陳處長建璋：有。"],["葛委員如鈞：找誰？"],["陳處長建璋：找我。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。"],["陳處長建璋：對，就是找我，我有發信給我們今年有拿到院內計畫的這些同仁，可能有受影響……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以您是單一窗口？"],["陳處長建璋：對，他們會找我，當然，就是我們學術處的同仁……"],["葛委員如鈞：不是，您有沒有公告受影響的話單一窗口是您？"],["陳處長建璋：單一窗口就是我。"],["葛委員如鈞：我這邊表達，第一，我們還是希望中研院應該是要讓同仁知道不會有問題，中研院會來協助解決，解決的單一窗口在這裡，這樣的作法可以嗎？"],["陳處長建璋：是。"],["廖院長俊智：這個有沒有問題事實上我們院裡面也不會知道，因為我們被凍了十一億多。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，很好，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：我們希望儘量讓同仁不要擔心。"],["葛委員如鈞：但你的信送出去是說你們都受到影響。沒有關係，我們現在就直接來看問題，您剛剛提到凍結案，既然這麼重要，請問中研院有沒有送解凍報告過來？"],["廖院長俊智：我們正在進行解凍的部分，因為根據立法院決議，我們要送出預算執行情形。"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思……"],["廖院長俊智：我們33個單位預算執行情形仍然在進行當中。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們院會的時候很早就已經決議了，總統也已經公告了，到現在還在處理，還零份！事實上，不只中研院，所有教文委員會的部會，一份解凍報告都沒有送進來，事實上你們的投影片……"],["廖院長俊智：我們會在規定的時間裡面送，我們會送。"],["葛委員如鈞：事實上你們也提到，就是凍結11億其實只要提出專案報告，我們同意就可以解凍，我相信我們的林宜瑾召委也一定會全力協助，因為我們都希望中研院同仁不要受到影響。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們的學術研究很重要，你們如果不提出來，怎麼有辦法解凍呢！"],["廖院長俊智：我們會提出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，什麼時候會提出？"],["廖院長俊智：我們會依規定時間提出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：規定是誰規定的？您是院長啊，所以是誰規定？"],["廖院長俊智：依立法院規定的時間提出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，我們沒有規定說什麼時候送出來喔！"],["廖院長俊智：沒有說什麼時間……"],["葛委員如鈞：這一點不好意思，院長，你講清楚喔！"],["廖院長俊智：那就要照……"],["葛委員如鈞：這個球不在我們這裡喔！所以是林宜瑾召委有跟您規定什麼時候要送出來嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：那我們就照……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有，召委也搖頭啊！我們沒有任何規定什麼時候才能送啊！"],["廖院長俊智：立法院的決議是要我們做預算執行情形的報告，我們要把預算執行情形彙整清楚之後才能夠專案報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好。"],["廖院長俊智：因為總共有十多億，我們不能做10頁報告，1頁解凍1億，所以要做詳盡的報告，我們有33個所、中心，這需要一點時間，避免出錯，我們希望……"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！所以院長可不可以收回您剛剛的說法？我們沒有規定您什麼時候才能送進來喔！"],["廖院長俊智：沒有規定的話，我們就照立法院的慣例處理，立法院沒有規定，並不是說……"],["葛委員如鈞：慣例就是ASAP（as soon as possible），這是考驗大家的團結力量嘛，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：是，沒錯，我們也是……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我問您什麼時候可以準備好，您作為院長，沒有規劃一個時間，同仁怎麼來依循呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我們快完成了，預計在幾個禮拜之內就可以送。"],["葛委員如鈞：幾個禮拜之內，好，幾個禮拜？2個禮拜，20個禮拜，30個禮拜？"],["廖院長俊智：不會，1、2個禮拜到2、3個禮拜之內，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝院長。同時，其實我也理解啦，因為院會的金額真的比較高，11億嘛，我們大家都有共識。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來做專案報告，我們全力來協助，但是委員會凍結1,250萬，只要書面報告就可以解凍，為什麼到現在也不交報告？"],["廖院長俊智：我們希望兩個合在一起，這部分我們確實是有討論過。"],["葛委員如鈞：奇怪，你發信的時候就發到全體同仁，然後每一個人你都來說會影響，你解凍的時候能解的趕快解啊！你講得好像很緊張，結果你處理的時候，能先處理的為什麼不先處理呢？"],["廖院長俊智：那個可以處理的部分事實上金額非常少，真正大的金額……"],["葛委員如鈞：1,250萬……"],["廖院長俊智：金額大的是……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以1,250萬非常少，對嗎？好，我們請所有中研院的研究同仁理解，院長的標準就是1,250萬非常少，可以先不送。"],["廖院長俊智：我們窒礙難行的部分是一些沒辦法流用的部分，其他的我們照委員講的，我們已經儘量在處理了。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，這個委員會的凍結……"],["廖院長俊智：沒辦法流用的部分……"],["葛委員如鈞：我是希望您能送的就先送，因為這個東西到委員會，不用做專案報告，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：那太好了！委員講不用專案報告，好，那我們就這樣進行。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有、沒有，我說的是委員會的1,250萬。"],["廖院長俊智：不用專案報告，我們下禮拜就送。"],["葛委員如鈞：委員會的1,250萬……"],["廖院長俊智：好，沒問題，我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：交報告就可以了啊！"],["廖院長俊智：不用專案報告，我們馬上送。"],["葛委員如鈞：召委也理解嘛，這個本來就是書面報告就可以，所以請跟同仁了解一下，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：因為這個本來就是不用專案報告的。"],["廖院長俊智：對，這部分是沒有問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。"],["廖院長俊智：但跟委員報告，我們現在最窒礙難行的就是一些被刪、被凍的部分又不能流用，這是為什麼大家會覺得說沒辦法動。"],["葛委員如鈞：不是，院長，您要有動作，否則大家會懷疑是不是有人不送，現在連媒體都在報導了，行政院是不是在擋解凍報告，但是你們是對總統府報告嘛。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以你們應該沒有這個壓力嘛。"],["廖院長俊智：沒有，我們沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以不要自己給自己壓力。"],["廖院長俊智：我們是要……"],["葛委員如鈞：趕快！委員會凍結的，只需要提交書面報告即可解凍。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：同仁如果有告訴你要專案報告才可以解凍，那就是有問題，您要調查一下。"],["廖院長俊智：不是，我們都知道，我們這部分討論了很多……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以委員會凍結的立刻送進來，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：我們知道，這個我們同意。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，接著我來詢問一下幾個點。"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在中研院院內的同仁要做AI的研究，能不能下載DeepSeek-R1的模型到自己的電腦上面安全的運行？可不可以？"],["陳處長伶志：委員好，我是資訊服務處處長陳伶志。按照目前的規定，是以不能下載為原則，如果真的要下載的話，他必須要做好資安管控措施。"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，我剛剛講的不是下載app，不是下載應用，是下載這個模型。"],["陳處長伶志：不行。"],["葛委員如鈞：你確定嗎？"],["陳處長伶志：確定。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在所有的學者都說下載模型單機運行是沒有問題的，您確定我們現在的對談是一致的？"],["陳處長伶志：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：下載模型研究不行？"],["陳處長伶志：需要做資安控管，需要報備。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以模型運行在自己的電腦上是有資安問題的，我們現在列入紀錄喔！"],["陳處長伶志：這個是政府的規定，所有中國的軟體、硬體、服務……"],["葛委員如鈞：我請您研究一下所有的規定，我們的理解就是不能下載app，不能下載應用服務，同時，去註冊它的服務可能是有資安疑慮的，可能會有個資的問題，模型本身有學術的意義，所以請您稍微幫同仁了解一下。第二點，請問同仁可不可以研讀DeepSeek的開放論文？"],["陳處長伶志：論文當然是可以的。"],["葛委員如鈞：論文可以嘛！所以我想這種開放的心態對AI發展非常重要，如果沒有問題的，就應該讓同仁放手去研究，它山之石，可以攻錯，不管是誰的，我們都要好好來了解，同時我想未來AI的發展應該還會前進。我想請教院長，您覺得AI的發展結束了嗎？還是會繼續發展下去？"],["廖院長俊智：當然會繼續發展下去。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯，所以我想發展跟監管跟風險，都是要做平衡的，同時我也想問中研院院長，在AI的發展方面，有沒有跟其他部會合作，跟數發部有沒有合作，跟國科會有沒有合作，跟國網中心的算力有沒有合作？"],["廖院長俊智：當然有，當然有很多的interaction，譬如說我們的算力主要是由國科會的國網中心來support，我們現在也希望組織全國很多AI的專家一起來發展AI，而不是大家分散來做。"],["葛委員如鈞：是啊，我想AI是一個競賽，我希望我們大家不要獨自幹，所以我特別覺得灌籃高手的合作精神很重要，我們也一起來打贏這一場AI的競賽。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：中研院跟各部會一起。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後一個問題，我想沒有電就沒有AI，面對全球減碳的浪潮，您提出了「淨零5支箭」，請教一下院長，這5支箭你有沒有發現缺了哪一支箭？"],["廖院長俊智：這5支箭的部分，我們認為是社會上討論比較少的，我們提出來讓大家討論，不是說我們要做，社會上已經在討論、在做的，我們就不會放在這5支箭裡面，是這個意思。"],["葛委員如鈞：您覺得核能現在社會上有在做嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：有在討論啊，有在討論的不需要我們來提醒社會需要討論這件事情。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以「淨零5支箭」不是要做的，只是大家沒在講的，你確定是這個說法嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不是、不是，是我們能夠做的，現在中研院沒有核能這樣的人才，也沒有這樣的設備，我們沒有辦法做核能的研究。5支箭每樣我們都有經費、有人員、有團隊，集合全國力量在大力推行當中。即使要做核能，中研院也沒有辦法來做核能的研究。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒關係，我們都列入紀錄了。我們問了全世界最優秀的AI，包含Sonnet、ChatGPT 4.5、Grok 3，如果作為國家最高的研究機關要做「淨零5支箭」、五個項目，我們應該要做什麼？每一個AI都把新核能的科技列進去，結果您在這裡告訴我們，中研院沒有能力來做這一塊的研究……"],["廖院長俊智：這跟AI的不一樣……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想人民，包含我們全世界所有的國家……"],["廖院長俊智：我們不能把……"],["葛委員如鈞：關注研發、研究的人都會非常失望，我希望中研院要秉持中立跟學術研究的良心，不要有意識形態跟政治性。","我最後一個問題，不好意思……"],["廖院長俊智：我們從來沒有政治意識形態……"],["葛委員如鈞：主席已經站起來……"],["廖院長俊智：我們在講「淨零5支箭」從來都沒有政治意識形態。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們看到有一位吳姓研究員到了民進黨中常會進行報告，提出了「脫中入北」的消息，請問院長，這個報告，我們可以去哪裡下載？"],["廖院長俊智：我不知道這件事情，哪一位吳姓研究員？這邊有很多姓吳的……"],["葛委員如鈞：我不好意思講名字，在座同仁有沒有人知道？有一位社會所的吳姓研究員，有舉手了，有人知道，沒有關係，這件事情關於學術研究的中立性、獨立性，希望院長就相關訊息了解一下，把這些訊息回應到我們辦公室來，可以嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，個別研究員的言論，我們非常尊重，不管任何言論，我們希望中研院是一個大家能夠秉持學術自由、言論自由的方向來進行。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是他是以中研院研究員的身分出現在那裡，而且有一個單方面的結論，所以我相信院長應該要知道，當然我理解學術研究是自由的，我們一起來捍衛，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞召委，院長請回。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160046","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160046","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97121f1c99b2d514bbfb803d2cc4ed617307dffdecc4c49be5a7b3d58fd2b68507d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:39:25 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謝謝部長謝謝主席主席 府院同仁 大家好早安好 那我就先請副秘書長"},{"start":50.489,"end":51.689,"text":"在我們整個民主法制的社會當中司法制度的正當性跟透明性會影響到個案的正義的實現"},{"start":75.114,"end":100.755,"text":"那也是維繫民眾對國家信賴的根本那本席今天想要從這個主題粵式裁定可能侵害人身自由的爭議跟第二個部分是詐欺犯罪這跟法務部比較有關詐欺犯罪因量刑過輕而造成社會的不安最後呢是大法官針對死刑核限做出的這個釋憲的模糊那我們看到在個別制度上的一個瑕疵"},{"start":102.055,"end":128.364,"text":"而且司法權在程序設計跟實務操作上面臨的一個深層的挑戰所以本席希望在司法的這個部分如果沒有明確的依據應有的通知義務跟有效的救濟機制那會導致程序的濫用也會動搖民眾對正義的一個信仰因此本席今天提出的質詢是希望司法院與法務部能夠正視制度性風險"},{"start":129.884,"end":156.235,"text":"然後來回應民意的期待那重建司法的信任與正當性所以我們就進入第一個有關於司法權核心正當性跟制度透明性的一個問題那也就是跟這個劣勢裁定有關法院在涉及科技設備監控等限制人身自由的處分所作出的劣勢裁定的依據與程序有沒有具備法律基礎或使用"},{"start":156.975,"end":178.554,"text":"是否符合法定的要件跟憲法的一個原則還是或者是在這個實務上是不是有存在著這個制度的濫用 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不然的話就是說你沒有當庭宣誓的話你就要把它做成一個裁定書把它那個送達"},{"start":351.027,"end":377.868,"text":"之後呢就當然還有那個公告的這一些那個程序那所以本件的那個問題並不是說他的這一個裁定的那個格式是不是用一個比較一個簡便的因為像那個最高法院他也承認說這個裁定他沒有一定的格式像我們在那個羈押的時候呢法官他會做一張押票這固定格式那這個謝謝複密署長本席在一開始就跟你們講說本席不想落入個案的一個討論"},{"start":378.669,"end":399.338,"text":"但是就這個個案影響到了整個系統性的問題是本席最想要跟您就教的那要跟委員報告的是就是說其實在我們那個法院呢大部分的那個法官都是非常敬業而且都是課那個課刑就是刑事訴訟法所做的那個規定的所以這類那個裁定呢他之所以為什麼我們"},{"start":400.118,"end":418.597,"text":"會進入那個懲處的那個程序它真的就是個案它真的就是個案那你們有沒有從這個個案再去檢視系統性有沒有失靈好 本席這邊提一下啦那你這個明文的規定對不起 明文的依據為什麼會是司法實務當中可以被啟動的處分形式如果它沒有一個明文的依據"},{"start":420.455,"end":444.422,"text":"那你們有沒有存在其他同樣被劣勢處理但是沒有依法紀錄沒有送達或沒有給予救濟機會的案件那你們有沒有掌握這個統計數據或運用範圍你們剛才講這個個案嘛對不對我們目前除了這個我們不知道其他有這樣子為師的情形因為這就是一個為師有沒有可能有有沒有可能有有沒有可能有"},{"start":445.838,"end":463.102,"text":"這個案件是因為眾所矚目嘛那其他有沒有像這樣子的狀況有可能 有沒有有沒有可能啦 妳覺得如果說從可能性的話這個我當然就是從機率上我沒有辦法說是那個不行那我想我們道分的這個法官可能還不太確定有沒有嘛"},{"start":463.502,"end":486.361,"text":"所以你們有沒有可能就針對這樣一個相關的裁定形式是否浮現展開一些研究調查本席經常從個案會看整體性的一個問題所以本席這邊所提出來就是說你不太確定有沒有可能有這樣子的狀況那你們是不是藉這個機會也去檢視一下然後這中間為師的這個部分可以作為這系統性檢視的一個參考你們覺得呢"},{"start":487.239,"end":513.597,"text":"是可以的 但是就是說裁定它是不要一定那個格式的妳講的是這個個案啦所以我在講這個整個我們那個通案就是說本來就是最高法院我們實務界這是我們大家慣行了就是裁定它沒有一定格式可是最重要的就是說你一定要把它裁定對外宣示出去這個才是爭點所以這個部分有沒有其他的案件會有現在這個情況"},{"start":515.74,"end":536.125,"text":"有沒有可能有其他案件會有像這樣子的情況不是只有這個眾所矚目的中文制案件我們通常那個法官就是因為這就是一個為私行為通常那個法官都是依照那個法律規定在進行的好 就是這個通常嘛所以本席就是藉這個個案提醒您是不是有機會檢視一下檢視一下"},{"start":543.306,"end":560.131,"text":"這個部分本席這邊再做一個建議啦是不是可以專案調查就劣勢裁定的適用範圍通知義務跟救濟保障還有相關案件失誤比例提出一些透明的統計數據那如果目前還沒有建立通報跟送達"},{"start":560.931,"end":587.289,"text":"制度之標準作業程序希望不知道這個部分有沒有如果還沒有是不是可以由司法院統一來頒布規則並對全國的各級法院加以訓練跟監督其實我們相關於就是裁定的這些那個原本還有正本的那個製作那個不只是刑事訴訟法就是其他的司法院所頒的這些那個刑事審判記錄業務注意事項這些其實都已經有非常詳細的一個規定了"},{"start":588.65,"end":613.395,"text":"所以複密署長您是覺得這樣一個情況這目前整個系統是除了這個個案沒有其他的問題的可能性還是說也有可能如果有可能本席這邊提出來的就是一個系統性的建議所以如同剛才我所講的假設有那是不是請你們就這一些案件去做一個系統性的了解跟分析然後相關的這個統計數據可不可以也去做一個整理"},{"start":614.688,"end":635.135,"text":"司法院可以來做這一份那個 就是做這個分析啊那如果如您剛才所講的 您覺得這個相關的這個SOP是OK的 您也藉這個機會來檢視一下 那我們整體是不是在這樣子的事件上還有再進一步跟大家宣導監督的一個必要性這是我一個建議 好 謝謝委員好 謝謝蜂蜜署長 不好意思我再用一點點時間齁那法務部 不好意思 法務部長"},{"start":642.981,"end":658.326,"text":"好那剛才本來是有三個議題啦那我現在就進行第二個議題那第三個議題因為時間關係我想改天我們再來做一個處理那針對這個法務部這個議題我想這很多委員都關注的也就是詐欺犯量刑過輕的這個問題"},{"start":660.242,"end":680.544,"text":"所以這一直是社會的焦點所以我們基本上是希望對現行法制跟量刑實務沒有辦法反映社會對詐欺犯詐欺嚴重性的一個問題所以本席這邊其實要提出來本席其實也提了一些法案所以民眾在目前"},{"start":681.525,"end":701.774,"text":"被詐欺所影響的直接或間接的狀況其實是非常嚴重的那我們知道整個詐欺罪你們的統計在2017年到2021年詐欺罪確定的大約有7萬人然後被判處6個月以下的大概佔了43%那3年以上的徒刑"},{"start":702.614,"end":723.969,"text":"大概不足1%大概差不多只有355人那這樣的數據很令人憂心顯示現在量刑好像沒有辦法針對其對人民的危害而有一些實質的反應所以現行的刑法第339條對於一般詐欺犯涉的五年以下的徒刑而且還可以異科罰金"},{"start":727.071,"end":735.735,"text":"感覺好像沒有辦法有嚇阻的作用因為詐欺本身是高報酬低風險的違法行為模式那現在詐欺案件屢見不鮮"},{"start":740.17,"end":764.389,"text":"應該是有一個制度性的漏洞所以大家現在能夠比較提出來的實務性操作就是加重詐欺罪所以在刑法第339條之四現在僅設一年以上七年以下的徒刑那對於網路還有冒用公部門現在詐欺從個人又變成一個集體行為甚至利用AI這些很難辨別的假訊息它的整個處罰實在過輕"},{"start":766.651,"end":794.257,"text":"那上次其實詐欺本席上次也提到但是法務部這邊提講的大概就是比較前端的有關於警政系統但是我想後端的阻嚇作用是非常重要的所以包括本席還有很多委員都對刑法第339條的之三跟四提出一些修正草案將一級的詐欺罪提高到五年以上十二年以下的徒刑加重詐欺罪者"},{"start":795.217,"end":820.204,"text":"無期徒刑或七年以上情節重大者可以到十年以上這樣明確回應社會對打擊詐騙的高度期待那凸顯我們目前現行的量刑跟社會的現實有一些脫節因為整個統計數據來講輕型化的趨勢就越演越烈那現行的法定刑責跟量刑"},{"start":821.044,"end":829.349,"text":"的適當性讓大家很疑慮所以不知道部長您是不是同意本席剛才所談的這個量刑"},{"start":831.725,"end":858.624,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教那的確是那個詐欺罪是讓全民共憤這是全民公敵那輕判的這個問題事實上外面的確是整個房間的確是有相當的質疑那這部分以現行來講我們也這個刑法的這個是不是過輕這個跟委員報告這個在去年的7月30日要施行的詐欺危害防治條例事實上在第42條"},{"start":860.565,"end":874.731,"text":"第43條裡面它有判刑法339-4剛才我有提到339-4的這些的如果詐欺達到500萬就3年以上10年以下的一個刑度如果說超過1億的達到1億的是5到12年那這邊還可以併科3億"},{"start":881.334,"end":903.393,"text":"3億以下的一個罰金 事實上去年就已經對這部分有做一些我們過了詐欺司法裡面這邊明確的針對犯罪行為跟刑期都有提高那44條裡面就是剛剛339之4裡面的那些只要以一個複合型的這是有兩個的話就是"},{"start":904.494,"end":932.747,"text":"就是在那個有蝦類就是有這樣有複合型的這些的詐欺的行為的話是再加二分之一那如果在這發起主持操縱的這些這些詐團這些領導的這些人這些是處5到12年的一個徒刑並克3億以下的一個罰金那另外這個事實上這個是全方位的另外這一種的話在50條我們檢查可以具體的一個酋刑那我們現在"},{"start":934.167,"end":954.078,"text":"發文給檢察官就是如果有詐欺危害防治條例相關的這些的加重的這些比較重的這些的詐欺犯刑我們是請檢察官要具體的一個求刑那我想這樣可以遏阻這些詐欺的這些的這些的這犯刑我想也受到一些的一個成果"},{"start":954.998,"end":978.693,"text":"那部長所以本席這邊除了您剛才這個我們也談到修正的本席這邊所談到的五年跟十二年還有無期徒刑或七年這個部分您是不是針對本席現在所提出來的相關的法案然後還有您剛才講的我們去年通過了打炸四法做一些分析然後參考本席這邊談到的情節重大者的一個"},{"start":980.254,"end":1004.779,"text":"處罰跟罰則做一個相關的分析然後我們再來比較那去年的這個部分跟今年很多委員包括本席所提出來的法案那其中的對詐欺的嚇阻的效力是不是再做一個更進一步的分析跟檢討我們再用數目的資料再跟委員給委員來做一個報告不要忘記本席這邊也有提出無期徒刑的這個刑責是不是我們再做一個分析好的好謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時40分）謝謝主席。主席、府院同仁，大家好、早安。我就先請副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。副秘書長，基本上，我先做前言，我還是比較希望能夠針對政策面，整個系統性去處理。在民主法治的社會當中，司法制度的正當性跟透明性會影響到個案正義的實現，也是維繫民眾對國家信賴的根本。本席今天想要就幾個主題就教各位。第一個是「略式裁定」可能侵害人身自由的爭議；第二個部分是詐欺犯罪，這個跟法務部比較有關，就是詐欺犯罪因量刑過輕而造成社會的不安；最後是大法官針對死刑合憲作出釋憲的模糊，讓我們看到在個別制度上的一個瑕疵，而且司法權在程序設計跟實務操作上所面臨深層的挑戰。所以本席希望在司法的這個部分，如果沒有明確的依據、應有的通知義務，跟有效的救濟機制，會導致程序的濫用，也會動搖民眾對正義的信仰。因此，本席今天提出的質詢，是希望司法院與法務部能夠正視制度性風險，然後來回應民意的期待，重建司法的信任與正當性。","我們進入第一個有關於司法權核心正當性跟制度透明性的問題，也就是跟略式裁定有關，法院在涉及科技設備監控等限制人身自由的處分，所作出的略式裁定的依據與程序，有沒有具備法律基礎或使用是否符合法定的要件跟憲法的原則？或者在實務上，是不是有存在這個制度的濫用、權責的不清，還有資訊不透明等現象？我想前面也有委員把個案的細節闡述得蠻清楚的，本席這邊想就系統性跟政策面來跟您做一個探討。","我們都知道鍾文智案，對一般民眾來講，可能很不解的是高等法院已經定讞判刑30年之後，涉案人還能夠潛逃失聯，而直接的原因是高等法院在去年10月中旬的略式加保裁定，這個裁定是換取不予延長科技監控的決定，但是依照我們所得到的相關資料，沒有依法公告、沒有送達檢察機關，也沒有通知當事人、辯護人，以致檢方完全喪失抗告的可能，最主要是程序感覺好像蕩然無存。然後事後檢院之間的通報、電話紀錄，又還有不同的版本，行政程序到資訊的紀錄都不太明顯，讓人有一種偽造的疑慮，所以讓人家覺得有點是法官審理權的濫用跟法院內部程序是不是已經失控？但這好像不是個案的問題，而是司法機關制度性風險的問題。","略式裁定依本席所了解，是刑事訴訟法第四百五十五條以下規定的特例程序，設定的目的是針對犯罪輕微、案件單純的情形，經過被告同意之後，由法院不經言詞辯論迅速裁定刑罰，然而在監控處分、保釋條件，還有科技設備使用等直接干預人身自由的情境中，引用略式程序的法律依據是什麼呢？程序上，是不是應該踐行刑事訴訟法第一百零一條關於羈押、監控延長的公開審理與通知義務？這個部分是不是可以就教副秘書長？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員垂詢。有關於委員關心的這個議題，其實我們在報告中已經有提及了，這一個案件最主要的違失，其實並不是裁定格式的問題，而是裁定有它一定法定的程序，就是什麼時候成立、什麼時候要對外生效，而對外生效這個是一個最基本的，要不然就是當庭所做以言詞宣示出來，讓當庭所在的當事人可以聽懂法院對我所做的裁定是什麼……"],["林委員倩綺：所以就只針對當事人，相關人等……"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有，這個之後還有，如果沒有當庭宣示，就要把它做成裁定書然後送達，之後當然還有公告的這一些程序。所以本件的問題，並不是說裁定的格式是不是用了一個比較簡便的方式，因為像最高法院也承認裁定沒有一定的格式，不像我們在羈押的時候，法官會做一張押票，這是固定格式……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝副秘書長，本席在一開始就跟你們講，我不想落入個案的討論，但是就這個個案所影響到整個系統性的問題，這是本席最想要跟您就教的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：要跟委員報告，其實在法院，大部分的法官都是非常敬業，而且課刑都是照刑事訴訟法所做的規定，而這一類裁定之所以會進入我們懲處的程序，因為它真的就是個案，它真的就是個案。"],["林委員倩綺：你們有沒有從這個個案再去檢視系統性是否失靈？本席提一下，如果沒有一個明文依據，為什麼它會是司法實務當中可以被啟動的處分形式？你們有沒有存在其他同樣被略式處理，但沒有依法紀錄、沒有送達或沒有給予救濟機會的案件？你們有沒有掌握相關統計數據跟運用範圍？你們剛才講這個是個案嘛，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前除了這件，我們不知道是否有其他這樣子違失的情形。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們不知道嘛！有沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為這就是一個違失……"],["林委員倩綺：有沒有可能有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這就是一個違失。"],["林委員倩綺：有沒有可能有？這個案件是因為眾所矚目，其他有沒有像這樣子的狀況，有沒有？有沒有可能啦，你覺得？"],["王副秘書長梅英：如果說從可能性的話，當然從機率上，我們沒有辦法說是不行……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，所以副秘書長……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們大部分的法官其實……"],["林委員倩綺：可能還不太確定有沒有嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們有沒有可能針對這樣一個相關的裁定形式是否符憲，展開一些研究調查？本席經常會從個案看整體性的問題，因為你不太確定有沒有這樣子的狀況，是不是藉這個機會也去檢視一下，然後中間違失部分，可以作為系統性檢視的一個參考，您覺得呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是可以的，但就是說裁定它不是一定要那個格式，這個是我們……"],["林委員倩綺：你講的是這個個案啦，所以我在講這整個……"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有，我們通案，本來最高法院、我們實務界，這是我們大家慣行了，就是裁定沒有一定格式，可是最重要的是一定要把裁定對外宣示出去，這個才是爭點。"],["林委員倩綺：所以有沒有其他的案件有現在這個情況？有沒有可能其他案件會有像這樣子的情況？不是只有這個眾所矚目的鍾文智案件。"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為這就是一個違失行為，通常法官都是依照法律規定在進行的。"],["林委員倩綺：就是這個「通常」嘛，所以本席就是藉這個個案提醒您，是不是有機會檢視一下？不知道你是不是能夠理解？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：OK，好，謝謝。這個部分本席再做一個建議，是不是可以專案調查，就略式裁定的適用範圍、通知義務跟救濟保障，還有相關案件失誤比例，提出透明的統計數據？我不知道目前是否已建立通報跟送達制度之標準作業程序，如果還沒有，是不是可以由司法院統一頒布規則，並對全國各級法院加以訓練跟監督？"],["王副秘書長梅英：關於裁定的原本及正本的制作，不只是刑事訴訟法，司法院所頒的刑事審判紀錄業務注意事項對這些其實都已經有非常詳細的規定了。"],["林委員倩綺：所以副秘書長覺得目前整個系統除了這個個案外，沒有其他有問題的可能性？還是說也有可能？如果有可能，本席這邊提出來的就是一個系統性的建議，所以如同剛才我所講的，假設有，是不是請你們就這一些案件去做一個系統性的了解跟分析，相關的統計數據也去做一個整理？"],["王副秘書長梅英：司法院可以來做這個分析。"],["林委員倩綺：是，如果如您剛才所講的，您覺得相關的SOP是OK的，你也藉這個機會來檢視一下，是不是整體在這樣子的事件上還有再進一步跟大家宣導、監督的必要性？這是我的建議，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝副秘書長。不好意思，我再用一點點時間。法務部部長，剛才本來有三個議題，我現在就進行第二個議題，第三個議題因為時間的關係，我想改天我們再來處理。針對法務部這個議題，我想這是很多委員都關注的，也就是詐欺犯量刑過輕的問題，這一直是社會的焦點，現行法制跟量刑實務沒有辦法反映社會對詐欺嚴重性的問題，所以本席這邊也提了一些法案，民眾目前被詐欺所影響的直接或間接的狀況其實是非常嚴重的，我們知道整個詐欺罪，根據你們的統計，在2017年到2021年，詐欺罪確定的大約有七萬人，被判處六個月以下的大概占43%，三年以上徒刑的大概不足1%，差不多只有355人，這樣的數據很令人憂心，顯示現在量刑好像沒有辦法針對其對人民的危害有一些實質的反應。","現行刑法第三百三十九條，對於一般詐欺犯設五年以下徒刑，而且還可以易科罰金，感覺好像沒有辦法有嚇阻的作用。因為詐欺本身是高報酬、低風險的違法行為模式，現在詐欺案件屢見不鮮，應該是有一個制度性的漏洞，所以大家現在比較能夠提出來的實務性操作就是加重詐欺罪，在刑法第三百三十九條之四，現在僅設一年以上七年以下徒刑，對於網路還有冒用公部門的，現在詐欺又從個人變成集體行為，甚至利用AI這些很難辨別的假訊息，這整個處罰實在過輕。","其實本席上次也提到詐欺的問題，但是法務部講的大概就是比較前端關於警政系統部分，但是我想後端阻嚇作用是非常重要的，包括本席還有很多委員都對刑法第三百三十九條之三跟之四提出一些修正草案，將一級詐欺罪提高到五年以上十二年以下徒刑，加重詐欺罪處無期徒刑或七年以上，情節重大者可以到十年以上，明確回應社會對打擊詐騙的高度期待，凸顯現行的量刑跟社會現實有一些脫節。依整個統計數據來講，輕刑化的趨勢越演越烈，現行法定刑責跟量刑的適當性讓大家很疑慮，不知道部長您是不是同意本席剛才所談的這個量刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指教，的確詐欺罪是讓全民共憤，這是全民公敵，關於輕判的問題，事實上整個坊間的確有相當的質疑，以現行來講，對於刑法是不是過輕問題，這個跟委員報告，在去年7月31號施行的詐欺危害防制條例，第四十三條規定有犯刑法第三百三十九條之四者，即剛才委員有提到第三百三十九條之四，若詐欺達到500萬，就是三年以上十年以下刑度，如果超過1億、達到1億的是五到十二年，這邊還可以併科3億以下的罰金，事實上去年就已經對這部分有做一個……"],["林委員倩綺：你是說我們通過的詐欺四法裡面……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，其中有……"],["林委員倩綺：這邊明確針對這樣的犯罪行為跟刑期……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，都有提高，另外跟委員報告，第四十四條也規定，就是剛才提到第三百三十九條之四裡面的犯行，只要是有複合型的詐欺行為，就再加二分之一，如果是發起、主持、操縱這些詐團的領導人處五到十二年的徒刑，併科3億以下的罰金。事實上這是全方位的，另外在第五十條，檢察官可以具體求刑，我們現在也發文給檢察官，如果有詐欺危害防制條例相關加重的、比較重的這些詐欺犯行，我們請檢察官要具體求刑，這樣可以遏止這些詐欺的犯行，我想這也收到一些成果。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，除了我們剛才談到的，本席這邊談到修正的五年跟十二年，還有無期徒刑或七年，這部分您是不是針對本席現在所提出來的相關法案，還有您剛才講的，將去年通過的打詐四法做一些分析，然後參考本席這邊談到情節重大者的處罰跟罰則，將其做相關分析之後，再來比較去年跟今年很多委員提出的，包括本席所提出來的法案，其中對詐欺嚇阻的效力是不是再做更進一步的分析跟檢討？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再用書面資料跟委員報告。"],["林委員倩綺：不要忘記本席這邊也有提出無期徒刑的刑責。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，我們會再做分析。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們下一位請王義川委員發言。","王委員，部長有事要先離開。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},{"id":"160045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97124501f6631bd8f4f1f11452c3877738cadffdecc4c49be5a71eeae6d87bcf22d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:42:28 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我們先有請郭部長好 有請部長郭部長"},{"start":17.298,"end":36.63,"text":"這個川普關稅下的這個海嘯我們國家是產業跟人民就業的唯一依靠好 粉絲呢 針對我們目前不管是昨天晚上的關稅的一個暫緩三個月或者是我們現在政府所提出的相關的一個救急方案"},{"start":36.63,"end":63.787,"text":"方案本期還是就三個問題來跟我們郭部長以及等一下的陳部長來做討論第一個我們現有的預算補助是否充足到位第二個我如何因應可能發生的失業跟匯率的波動所以等一下財政部也要來上來表達一下的相關的措施第三個擴大對美採購應該要鏈接國家的長期發展的策略好第一個呢我們這個"},{"start":66.608,"end":91.533,"text":"針對第一個問題現有的預算補助是否到位經濟部你的報告說880億當中有410億是跟經濟部有關我目前高雄的困境我相信部長你有相當的掌握在沒有三個月的這個暫緩的一個關稅的政策之前我高雄未被列入豁免範圍的金屬加工製品光是高雄的產值有多少金屬加工有2330億這2330億當中"},{"start":95.174,"end":100.359,"text":"有560億是出口的佔了我整個高雄金屬加工製造業的產產值的24%好這561出口當中呢又其中又以螺絲螺帽出口總額高達523億也就是這564億當中的出口92%"},{"start":115.012,"end":136.96,"text":"全部都是我高雄的螺絲螺帽好第二個我高雄的現有的產業廊擴包括我科學園區及半導體廠商受到的政策衝擊最為嚴重因為這些廊帶這些科學園區這些半導體廠商相關的周邊的廠商進駐到我高雄的都是以蘇美的資通訊產品跟電子零件為大宗這兩個輸出的產品資通訊產品跟電子產品"},{"start":142.442,"end":158.759,"text":"輸出我們在台灣輸出美國的出口達到65.4%所以這個直接對高雄的經濟當然一定產生重大的打擊好那410億能夠提供多久或多少我中南部是台灣船廠的"},{"start":160.06,"end":181.29,"text":"工業重鎮而且高雄更是重中之重所以呢經濟部提出了個別產業客製化的這個協助策略本期是非常認同的部長這我非常認同你那但是呢我要求就是希望秋季之外也能帶動產業的升級這等一下我有具體的要求這是第一個問題要跟您就教以及第二個階段後續準備跟預算當"},{"start":182.671,"end":187.254,"text":"我們現在規劃的預算比如說410億在經濟不夠的時候您的後面的這個啟動作業又是如何呢第二個問題好我們如何因應失業跟匯率的波動面對關稅對等關稅風暴產業已經基於疫情的我要嘛就就就減產要嘛我就裁員所以相關後面的報導不管是"},{"start":205.727,"end":227.904,"text":"彰化的這個水五金已經接收到美國的這個評單了他只好裁員官場包括我們台灣老牌的工廠的大裁員等等所以這會本席在意的是我勞工的家庭生計所以看到我們今年3月的CPI我們的消費者物價指數比去年同年期3月我高了2.29%我已經突破通膨的一個警戒性2%了"},{"start":232.768,"end":241.097,"text":"好那再來PPI這個生產物價指數我今年3月生產者物價指數比去年3月的生產者物價指數高了3.53那再加上我這一個禮拜我台幣大貶值"},{"start":248.004,"end":271.054,"text":"所以我可以預期台灣的通膨膨脹是應該要被因應的這簡單的講我人民的這個消費的痛苦指數提高了那我這個生產的成本也提高了那再加上這個關稅又砍單了那再加上我台幣貶值我出口當然是已經又面臨砍單我台幣貶值的情況之下當然我整個"},{"start":272.374,"end":290.684,"text":"我們整個台灣的一個經濟的通膨當中我們是很憂慮的所以經濟部提出說好你們提出了利息補貼也提出了研發補助本席都認同但是我更在意的是勞工權益這一題等一下財政部要來回應我因為我有這個具體的建議好第三"},{"start":291.264,"end":295.488,"text":"擴大對媒採購應鏈結國家的長期發展總統這邊已經很明確的指示了我們行政院已經盤點對農工石油天然氣國防等產品進行採購跟投資好那經濟部農業部將相關採購計畫也要納入國家中產級的發展戰略我想這個你們不會反對但"},{"start":314.523,"end":339.356,"text":"好我幾個幾項第一個在這個國企國運國管有關天然氣的部分台美雙方已經簽訂了在部長您的支持之下中油也確實去投資美國阿拉斯加的這個天然氣廠我們也會有採購也有投資的計畫那目前也就是要穩定天然氣的供應穩定考量地緣政治本席主張的天然氣國企"},{"start":341.958,"end":356.608,"text":"國運 國管所以如果將天然來提升臺灣人員安全的自主性就這個政策來講本席是非常感謝郭部長您上來您支持這個計畫所以也因為你的支持中油也很趕快的"},{"start":357.288,"end":370.661,"text":"本來不想要去跟他跟中油跟日本投資的尼米克公司去談這個延約您支持下他要去談了也配合今天這個政策但本席發現到中油去跟轉投資的尼米克討論後續的展延計畫的時候"},{"start":373.163,"end":383.375,"text":"最在意的他沒有去規劃國籍天然氣航運人才的養成這是本席最在意的我既然如果全部國企國運之後呢我國管啊只有台灣船籍的船長才會配合國家的政策啊"},{"start":391.585,"end":403.922,"text":"只有台灣籍的國家的船長才會知道在面臨地緣政治的時候我國家的人員政策國內有危機的時候他會配合政策進來只有台灣籍的船長那船長怎麼來當然從基層的船員啊"},{"start":408.368,"end":413.792,"text":"大副二副這個水手這樣這個基層上來呀所以這個部分我是要求這個既然經濟部已經開始重啟國際國運但我要國管所以我這邊要求經濟部您這個請中油要特別將這個台灣級天然氣船廠天然氣船的船長納入這次對美採購合併的規劃這是可以做到嗎"},{"start":436.005,"end":451.216,"text":"報告委員我們會根據你的這樣的一個方案我們會跟交通部深刻的快速的來檢討將這樣的一個方向能夠落實對因為最後要訓練還是回到台船回到中友因為船是他的"},{"start":451.696,"end":462.299,"text":"那船員還是他的場域是他的啊那包括要支持當然交通部可以來支援這樣技術可是最後在整個實習面還是都是在中油的相關的一個場域內好第二個高雄地區的台灣雕這個陳部長就請你上來了"},{"start":469.381,"end":494.71,"text":"高雄地區的台灣鯛跟鱸魚對美我現在講高雄喔我的農業當中最危險的就是台灣鯛跟鱸魚對美有將近一億出頭的出口額相較於其他的晉升對手包括巴西我的這個關稅它是10%本來我們是32%在這個昨天晚上的三個月還沒暫緩之前所以我們的市場絕對會被搶走我高雄的台灣鯛跟鱸魚的市場就沒有了所以呢"},{"start":495.39,"end":510.588,"text":"在這邊防範於未來因為這樣的一個關稅暫緩就三個月而已所以如果談判不順利巴西的關稅還是維持10%那我們還是比10%高的時候那您的因應措施是什麼"},{"start":511.591,"end":525.609,"text":"跟委員報告您所關切的這些無國魚的部分雖然說我們無國魚的出口量79%到美國去但是從美國來講我們的主要競爭對手國是中國因為我講的是台灣鯛跟鱸魚對 台灣鯛就是台灣鯛"},{"start":528.653,"end":557.593,"text":"台湾条本身进到美国去进到美国去的是中国是占了66%我们是占7%而已所以我们的最大竞争对手国是中国那以现在目前为止中国的关税是远高于我们其实它是另外一个机会我们可以趁这个机会但是我们另外一个对手是巴西喔它当然中国就已经被排除在外嘛那个是美国它的政策嘛但是在排除中国之后我的最大竞争对手是巴西喔"},{"start":558.273,"end":586.373,"text":"所以說整個美國市場如果不萎縮的時候中國這個高關稅不能進去的時候就是台灣還有巴西有可能去競爭更多的市場所以這個部分我們在產業的時候就會輔導他們去加速他們的一個外銷的整個的一個品質特別是條魚跟條凍的這些部分的冷藏跟有系統的生食級的吳國瑜能夠進到美國他的高端市場是維持在那邊的好 走高端市場好"},{"start":587.674,"end":604.296,"text":"那這邊這個陳部長您請回啦那這個郭部長跟我們的財政部次長來因為我在意的是我中小企業這個財政部啊我在你們這個補貼例許當中我在這邊有個要求"},{"start":605.738,"end":612.468,"text":"財政部應該統籌八大行庫組成融資專案小組配合我經濟部配合我農業部的產業政策評估將部財源保證設定於貸款條件當中你經濟部你的中小企業處也要"},{"start":621.26,"end":636.485,"text":"合時的去監督審核到底這個簽了不裁我政府補貼你這個貸款的利率那這個中小企業你核定了這樣的一個補助計畫那到底有沒有落實不裁員這件事情我不知道次長您怎麼看"},{"start":637.725,"end":665.093,"text":"是委員我想那個有關於中小微企業這部分的貸款的話基本上我們公股行庫一定會配合來辦理那委員是希望把不裁員這個條件納入一個評估的參考這個我們也會請八大公股行庫來列為參考我想這是一個很重要的原則我在意的是你拿了補貼之後到底你真的企業拿了補貼之後到底是不是真的有還是去做相關的套利的動作我想講這樣應該次長知道我在講什麼"},{"start":667.974,"end":685.369,"text":"所以對於真的可以拿得到立即補貼的那他真的是要能夠有不裁員的保證 好不好那第二個針對經濟部提出方案你們對於區域及產業聚落進行補貼分配的專案當中尤其對中小型 本席是最在意中小型企業跟傳統產業所以你410億當中我強烈要求60%"},{"start":691.374,"end":706.508,"text":"你一定要用在這個我的中小型企業跟船長避免資源集中在優勢產業什麼叫優勢產業就是他只有賺錢啊即使我現在面對高官雖然他的承受力還有可是面對這個高官雖然我中小企業跟船長是會倒成一片的"},{"start":707.488,"end":734.651,"text":"那所以呢這個60%是補助在中小型企業跟船廠而避免在這個再去的去補助不是說不補助半導體跟資通訊的還是要但是你至少40%給他們去分60%一定要在中小型企業跟船廠這個部長你怎麼看是這個我們可以做到啦是剛才委員在講說這個不裁員我們也不降薪啦這個是我們的條件喔好好好"},{"start":737.194,"end":752.375,"text":"在這邊當然也希望美國的暫緩政策這三個月當中請各部會能夠加強跟地方跟產業的務實對話能夠聽取產業的心聲基層的需求作為輔助政策的制定參考我們大家一起努力 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":154,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時42分）我們先有請郭部長。"],["主席：有請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：郭部長好。川普關稅下的海嘯，我們國家是產業跟人民就業的唯一依靠。針對目前不管是昨天晚上關稅暫緩3個月，或者是我們現在政府所提出相關的救急方案，本席還是就三個問題跟我們郭部長以及等一下的陳部長討論。第一個，我們現有的預算補助是否充足到位？第二個，如何因應可能發生的失業跟匯率的波動？所以等一下財政部也要來上來表達一下相關的措施。第三個，擴大對美採購應該要鏈結國家長期發展的策略。","我們針對第一個問題，現有的預算補助是否到位？經濟部的報告說880億當中有410億是跟經濟部有關，目前我們高雄的困境，相信部長有相當的掌握，在沒有暫緩關稅3個月的政策之前，高雄未被列入豁免範圍的金屬加工製品，光是高雄的產值有多少？金屬加工有2,330億，這2,330億當中，有564億是出口的，占了整個高雄金屬加工製造業產值的24%。而這564億又以螺絲、螺帽對美出口總額達高達523億，即92%全部都是高雄的螺絲、螺帽。","其次，高雄現有的產業廊廓，包括科學園區及半導體廠商受到的政策衝擊最為嚴重，因為這些廊帶、這些科學園區、這些半導體廠商及相關周邊的廠商，進駐到我們高雄的都是以輸美的資通訊產品跟電子零件為大宗。這兩個輸出的產品，資通訊產品跟電子產品，占臺灣輸出美國的出口達到65.4%，所以當然一定直接對高雄的經濟產生重大的打擊。410億能夠提供多久或多少？我中南部是臺灣傳產的工業重鎮，而且高雄更是重中之重，所以經濟部提出了個別產業客製化的協助策略，本席是非常認同的。部長，這個我非常認同你，但是我要求、希望救急之外，也能帶動產業升級，這等一下我有具體的要求，這是第一個問題要跟您就教，以及第二個階段後續準備跟預算，當我們現在規劃的預算，比如410億在經費不夠的時候，您的後備啟動作業又是如何呢？","第二個問題，我們如何因應失業跟匯率的波動？面對對等關稅風暴，產業已經基於預期心裡，我要麼就減產，要麼我就裁員，所以相關後面的報導，彰化的水五金已經收到美國的停單了，他只好裁員關廠，包括我們臺灣老牌工廠大裁員等等。本席在意的是勞工家庭的生計，我們看到今年3月的CPI（消費者物價指數）比去年同年期3月高了2.29%，已經突破通貨膨脹的警戒線2%了。好，再來PPI這個生產物者價指數，今年3月生產者物價指數，比去年3月的生產者物價指數高了3.53%，再加上這一個禮拜臺幣大貶值，所以我可以預期臺灣的通膨是應該要被因應的。簡單講，人民的消費痛苦指數提高了，生產成本也提高了，加上關稅又砍單了，出口又面臨砍單，再加上臺幣又貶值的情況之下，對於整個臺灣經濟的通膨，我們當然是很憂慮的。經濟部提出利息補貼，也提出了研發補助，本席認同，但是我更在意的是勞工權益。這一題等一下財政部要回應我，因為我有具體的建議。","第三，擴大對美採購應鏈結國家的長期發展。總統已經很明確的指示了，行政院已經盤點對農、工、石油、天然氣、國防等產品進行採購跟投資，經濟部、農業部的相關採購計畫也要納入國家中長期的發展戰略。我想這個你們不會反對，但是我舉幾項，第一個，國氣、國運、國管，有關天然氣的部分，臺美雙方已經簽訂了，在部長的支持之下，中油也確實去投資美國阿拉斯加的天然氣廠，我們也會採購，也有投資計畫，目前就是要穩定天然氣的供應，並考量地緣政治。本席主張天然氣國氣、國運、國管，所以如果就提升臺灣人員安全的自主性這個政策來講，本席非常感謝郭部長支持這個計畫，也因為你的支持，中油也趕快……本來不想要跟中油、跟日本投資的尼米克公司去談延約，在部長支持之下，他要去談了，也配合今天這個政策。但本席發現到，中油去跟轉投資的尼米克討論後續展延計畫的時候，本席最在意的是它沒有規劃國籍天然氣航運人才的養成，這是本席最在意的。既然國氣、國運之後，要國管啊！只有臺灣船籍的船長才會配合國家的政策，只有臺灣籍的、國家的船長才會知道在面臨地緣政治的時候，國家的能源政策、國內有危機的時候，他會配合政策進來，只有臺灣籍的船長。那麼船長怎麼來？當然從基層的船員，大副、二副、水手，這樣很基層上來。這個部分，經濟部已經開始重視國氣、國運，但我要國管，所以我要求經濟部請中油要特別將臺灣籍天然氣船的船長納入這次對美採購合併的規劃，這可以做到嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會根據你這樣的一個方案，跟交通部深刻的、快速的檢討，讓這樣的一個方向能夠落實。"],["林委員岱樺：對，最後要訓練還是回到中油，因為船是它的，船員、場域是它的，包括要支持，當然交通部可以支援這樣的技術，可是最後在整個執行面，還是都是在中油相關的場域內。","第二個，高雄地區的臺灣鯛，這就請陳部長上來了。高雄地區的臺灣鯛跟鱸魚對美出口，我現在講高雄，農業當中最危險的就是臺灣鯛跟鱸魚，對美有將近1億出頭的出口額，相較於其他的競爭對手，包括巴西的關稅是10%，本來我們是32%，在昨天晚上還沒暫緩三個月之前，所以我們的市場絕對會被搶走，我高雄的臺灣鯛跟鱸魚的市場就沒有了。所以在這邊要防範於未然，因為這樣的關稅暫緩就三個月而已，如果談判不順利，巴西的關稅還是維持10%，當我們還是比10%高的時候，您的因應措施是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：好，跟委員報告，您所關切的這些吳郭魚的部分，雖然我們吳郭魚的出口量有79%是到美國，但是從美國來講，我們的主要競爭對手國是中國，因為……"],["林委員岱樺：我講的是臺灣鯛跟鱸魚。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是臺灣鯛。"],["林委員岱樺：是，臺灣鯛跟鱸魚，品種不一樣喔！"],["陳部長駿季：臺灣鯛本身進到美國，中國占了66%。我們占7%而已，所以我們的最大競爭對手國是中國，以目前為止，中國的關稅遠高於我們，其實它是另外一個機會，我們可以趁這個機會……"],["林委員岱樺：但是我們另外一個對手是巴西，當然中國已經被排除在外，那個是美國的政策，但是在排除中國之後，我的最大競爭對手是巴西。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以整個美國市場如果不萎縮，中國高關稅不能進去的時候，臺灣還有巴西有可能去競爭更多的市場，所以這個部分，我們在產業就是輔導他們加速外銷的整個品質，特別是條魚跟條凍這些部分的冷藏，跟有系統的、生食級的吳郭魚能夠進到美國，它的高端市場是維持在那邊的。"],["林委員岱樺：好，走高端市場。好，陳部長，您請回。請郭部長跟我們的財政部次長，因為我在意的是中小企業。財政部，在你們這個補貼利息當中，我在這邊有個要求，財政部應該統籌八大行庫組成融資專案小組，配合農業部的產業政策，評估將不裁員保證設定於貸款條件，經濟部的中小企業處也要覈實的監督、審核，簽了不裁員保證，政府補貼貸款利率，對於中小企業，你核定了這樣的一個補助計畫，到底有沒有落實不裁員這件事情，我不知道。次長，你怎麼看？"],["李次長慶華：是，委員，有關於中小微企業這部分的貸款，基本上我們公股行庫一定會配合辦理。委員希望把不裁員這個條件納入評估的參考，這個我們也會請八大公股行庫來列為參考，我想這是一個很重要的原則，謝謝委員指導。"],["林委員岱樺：對，我在意的是企業拿了補貼之後到底是不是真的不裁員，還是去做相關套利的動作，我想講這樣應該次長知道我在講什麼。所以對於真的可以拿得到利息補貼的，它真的要能夠有不裁員的保證，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：好。"],["林委員岱樺：第二個，針對經濟部提出方案，你們對於區域及產業聚落進行補貼分配的專案當中，尤其對於中小型企業，本席最在意中小型企業跟傳統產業，所以你的410億當中，我強烈要求60%，一定要用在中小型企業跟傳產，避免資源集中在優勢產業，什麼叫優勢產業？就是它很賺錢，即使現在面對高關稅，它還有承受力，可是面對高關稅，我們中小企業跟傳產是會倒成一片的，所以這個60%是補助中小型企業跟傳產，避免再去補助優勢產業。不是說不補助半導體跟資通訊了，還是要補助，但是40%給他們去分，至少60%一定要在中小型企業跟傳產。郭部長，你怎麼看這個主張？"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個我們可以做到。剛才委員在講不裁員，我們也不降薪，這個是我們的條件。"],["林委員岱樺：好、很好！好，在這邊當然也希望美國暫緩政策的這三個月當中，各部會能夠加強跟地方、跟產業的務實對話，能夠聽取產業的心聲、基層的需求，作為扶助政策的制定參考，我們大家一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。","下一位請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","陳超明","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","羅美玲","李坤城","許宇甄","葉元之","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長及財政部首長就「因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁畜業及關鍵產\n業競爭力之協助措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00005"}}},{"id":"160044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712edad0134e419bd7d39fb4699fde53261dffdecc4c49be5a713a137a43a01e8185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:43:32 - 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絕大多數都是從中國去的那我就是在這個地方 我已經問過很多次了我認為小額包裹進到台灣來的免稅額度 現在你們的規定是新台幣2000塊這個對台灣的製造業是不公平的"},{"start":76.621,"end":105.178,"text":"台東安的製造業的廠商產品從工廠出來還要貨物稅 還要營業稅各項的稅金結果從中國來的包裹2000塊以下是免稅這就讓台灣的廠商先天上就處於一個不公平競爭的關係這個我已經跟你提過很多次了而且去年前年都有提過"},{"start":106.158,"end":117.822,"text":"那你以前給我的回答就是說因為全世界大家都有這個小額商品小額包括免稅的規定所以你認為台灣調整的那個時機還沒到那美國這次調整了那台灣要不要調整啊"},{"start":126.189,"end":145.451,"text":"美國是要跟他磕90%的關稅我還不敢說要求這樣只是說應該也要照其他貨品的這樣關稅來磕這個你的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員 委員確實好幾次有提到這個那因為尤其是我們的小豪包裹來自於海運快遞的相當的多"},{"start":145.987,"end":161.862,"text":"而且這裡面是中國大陸裡面佔的比例更高達五成以上那至於對於所謂少額的包裹是否免稅目前來說免稅的兩千塊是不是要做一個調整這個也是目前我們正在做一個分析的部分也就是說因為美國是對中國大陸所進口的這個小的包裹的部分"},{"start":168.889,"end":185.424,"text":"課徵90%的稅那我們這個部分是不是要做調整是可以做一個思考的因為我們主要的也是從中國來的中國都是用低價的商品用這個走這個漏洞小額包裹免稅的這個漏洞源源不絕地一直來其實就造成了台灣的製造業"},{"start":186.605,"end":213.179,"text":"處於一個不公平的競爭關係所以逼得台灣的製造業過去必須要外移要移到中國 移到東南亞這跟這個有關啊所以如果像看美國的政策川普的政策他是要讓製造業重回美國那如果台灣要重新扶植我們的製造業這個小額包裹這個我強烈建議好好檢討我認為我是贊成完全取消的好第二個問題"},{"start":216.74,"end":245.789,"text":"電商有一些 台灣的電商就落地啦也有一些外國的電商落地沒有落地的電商會造成一個問題我一直在擔憂這個問題 我也跟你提過對於民法的加害給付無法處理今天進來不是說這個東西瑕疵不好用 品質不好不是只有這個問題喔如果進來的東西舉一個例子 進來是有毒的"},{"start":247.199,"end":276.253,"text":"穿在身上引起過敏的或是說拿到什麼樣子的簡單的電器品結果它是爆炸的這個在民法上叫加害己負啊加害己負是除了產品本身沒有那個價值之外對於使用者還造成了傷害這個民法裡面規定這是要損害賠償的嘛或是走契約關係的不完全己負要求賠償兩條路徑可是電商如果沒有落地啊"},{"start":277.798,"end":303.837,"text":"請問消費者要去跟誰糾纏確實委員非常關注這個問題但是我們目前我們知道有關在我們已經要求這些網路要辦理這個稅籍登記大家都有落機那當然還有您提的就是沒有落地的部分確實在消費上會對消費者的保護是不夠的 是我現在要跟你講我的想法不是只有落地還要要求在台灣登記的資本額要實收"},{"start":305.336,"end":331.723,"text":"我舉個例子淘寶網隨便賣到台灣來的瑕疵貨品如果對消費者造成傷害我要求償啊要求償他要有資歷啊如果他落地之後他的資本額是很低的他的一兩百萬登記的資本額那我告他他都賠不起而且大家知道嗎國際這些貨物的流通喔有時候一進來的數量就相當大他有可能造成集體消費者的傷害"},{"start":333.074,"end":358.112,"text":"過去我們說有一些中國來的這些或是東南亞來的這些傢俱你用記的但是在裡面如果那個害蟲沒有防治或是那個塗料有含超過台灣的這個可以核准的標準這些都有可能間接造成消費者的損害所以我在這裡要跟你說不是只有要落地我要要求要落地"},{"start":358.692,"end":373.204,"text":"而且要撩有足夠的資本額當它發生這樣子的對消費者造成損害的時候還有求償的機會不然難道要叫台灣的消費者跑到中國去打官司告他那邊的人嗎早就人去樓空不知道在哪裡啦對委員這個建議由於財政部這邊主要是稅級登記那您剛剛提到的一個資本額以及相關的登記我們會跟經濟部這個部分再來討論經濟部的次長不是有來嗎來請上台"},{"start":396.284,"end":420.182,"text":"我剛剛講的問題你應該有聽到啦那政策上面一定要趕快研議趕快這樣處理因為我覺得這個未來一定會造我在這個地方斷言不處理未來一定會發生那你發生的時候你不要讓他說沒有辦法因為電商沒有落地對你造成的損害你自己到他的國家去告他這樣子消費者是不能接受的喔"},{"start":421.175,"end":441.647,"text":"市長你的看法怎麼樣我們會照委員的提醒我們回去來研議你想想看人家金管會有一些金融商品他要落地他必須公司必須要落地不然不能讓他做交易你那個是金融是商品你這個是實質貨物商品更需要這樣"},{"start":444.357,"end":459.307,"text":"金融商品造成的金融損失你這個商品實質的商品還有可能造成人身身體的損害呢所以可以取法於人家的這樣的規定要求這些落地 請你回座再來要請教部長其實"},{"start":462.782,"end":490.854,"text":"這一次你知道越南為什麼要去跟美國談關稅美國都不要跟他談你知道什麼原因嗎當然他提了除了關稅稅率之外還有美方也認為說你還有非關稅的貿易壁壘的問題最重要的問題就是認為在幫中國的產品洗產地洗產地所以這是一個台灣未來要面對很嚴肅的問題台灣如果被美國認定有在幫中國的商品洗產地"},{"start":493.086,"end":518.468,"text":"我們可能將來最嚴重要承擔跟中國一樣的關稅所以這個是其實我個人的認知啊川普出這個重拳目的第一目標就是對準中國所以為什麼東南亞這些國家都跟美國講說那我們都不要關稅 我們關稅都零川普仍然不能接受 美國仍然不能接受就是因為他在對付中國的棋產地"},{"start":519.448,"end":547.299,"text":"好那你知道台灣目前有哪一些東西可能有這些嫌疑的跟委員報告對於有關席產地也就是違規轉運這個部分我們都非常重視那在海關的部分已經建置了三道防線就是事前的預防事中的嚴查以及事後的嚴懲罰事中的管理那這個部分的在三道防線之下事實上我們已經有相關的績效抓到一些"},{"start":547.799,"end":567.313,"text":"抓到一些這種違規轉應的情形同時我們也跟經濟部這邊成立一個橫向的一個機制也就對於我們認為高風險的廠商我們都會定時的名冊給經濟部然後他們對於在核發有關產地證明或許可證的時候要更加的嚴格審核那在我們海關的部分也會再做經濟"},{"start":568.934,"end":587.772,"text":"杜絕這個違規轉運你的自由貿易港區喔 境內關外中國的貨品送到自由貿易港區來不用進到台灣的關轉口出去這個要做詳細的調查跟統計我們這個漏洞如果被美國抓住了對台灣是不可承受之重"},{"start":588.669,"end":608.135,"text":"所以我是先把這個話講在這邊喔你們執政者要很小心這個問題因為美國現在既然要用這麼高的關稅對抗中國對付中國中國跟他高度對抗所以美國會更重視其產地的問題不要為了那一點點的銀頭小利"},{"start":609.975,"end":616.508,"text":"去讓整個國家的貿易崩潰那個後果是非常嚴重的要加油好不好好加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時43分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長，請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：昨天川普宣布關稅都回到10%的基準，並暫緩90天，當然，這90天就是要談判。可是美國的另外一個政策就是對中國關稅不但沒有降，還做了幾個動作：第一個，小額包裹從5月1日開始要全部收稅，而且要加到90%。因為美國有10億件的小額包裹，絕大多數都是從中國過去的。這問題我在這個地方已經問過很多次，現在小額包裹進到臺灣來的免稅額度規定是新臺幣2,000塊，這對臺灣的製造業是不公平的！臺灣製造業廠商的產品從工廠出來時，除了貨物稅外，還有營業稅及各項稅金，結果從中國來的包裹2,000塊以下免稅，這讓臺灣廠商先天上處於不公平的競爭關係中！這點我已經跟你提過很多次，而且去年、前年都有提過。你以前給我的回答是，因為全世界都有小額包裹免稅規定，所以你認為臺灣調整的時機還沒到。那麼美國這次調整了，臺灣要不要調整？美國是課90%的關稅，我還不敢要求這樣，只是認為應該要照其他貨品的關稅來課，對此你的看法怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。委員確實有好幾次提到這點，尤其小額包裹來自海運、快遞的相當多，且裡面中國大陸占的比例高達五成以上。至於小額包裹是否免稅？目前免稅標準2,000塊是不是要做一個調整？這是我們目前正在分析的一個部分。也就是說，美國對中國大陸所進口的小額包裹課徵90%的稅，而我們這部分是不是要做調整？我想是可以做思考的。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我們的包裹主要也是從中國來的，中國都是用低價商品走小額包裹免稅的漏洞，源源不絕一直來，造成臺灣製造業處於不公平的競爭關係中，過去逼得臺灣的製造業必須要外移到中國、東南亞，都跟這個有關。所以想想看美國的政策、川普的政策是要讓製造業重回美國，如果臺灣要重新扶植我們製造業，小額包裹這個我強烈建議好好檢討，我是贊成完全取消的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個問題是電商，有一些臺灣的電商就落地了，也有一些外國的電商落地，沒有落地的電商會造成一個問題，我一直在擔憂這個問題，我也跟你提過，對於民法的加害給付無法處理。今天進來不是說這個東西瑕疵不好用、品質不好，不是只有這個問題，舉一個例子，如果進來的東西是有毒的，穿在身上引起過敏，或是拿到什麼樣子的簡單電器品，結果它爆炸了，這個在民法上叫加害給付，加害給付是除了產品本身沒有那個價值之外，對於使用者還造成傷害，民法裡面規定這是要損害賠償的，或是走契約關係的不完全給付要求賠償等兩條路徑，可是電商如果沒有落地，請問消費者要去跟誰求償？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員非常關注這個問題，但是目前我們已經要求這些網路要辦理稅籍登記，大家都有落地，當然還有您提的沒有落地的部分，確實在消費上對消費者的保護是不夠的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在要跟你講我的想法，不是只有落地，還要要求在臺灣登記的資本額要實收，我舉一個例子，淘寶網隨便賣到臺灣來的瑕疵貨品如果對消費者造成傷害，我要求償啊！求償它要有資力啊！如果它落地，結果它的資本額是很低的，登記的資本額只有一、兩百萬，那我告它，它都賠不起！而且大家知道嗎？國際這些貨物的流通，有時候一進來的數量就相當大，它有可能造成集體消費者的傷害，過去我們說有一些中國來的或是東南亞來的家具，你用寄的，但是如果裡面的害蟲沒有防治或是塗料有含超過臺灣核准的標準，這些都有可能間接造成消費者的損害。所以我在這裡要跟你說，不是只有要落地，我除了要求要落地，而且要要求有足夠的資本額，當它發生這樣子對消費者造成損害的時候，還有求償的機會，不然難道要叫臺灣的消費者跑到中國去打官司，告他那邊的人嗎？早就人去樓空，不知道在哪裡了！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於委員這個建議，由於財政部主要是稅籍登記，那您剛剛提到的資本額以及相關的登記，我們會跟經濟部再來討論這個部分，看看怎麼落實。"],["吳委員秉叡：經濟部的次長不是有來嗎？請上臺。","我剛剛講的問題，你應該有聽到？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：政策上面一定要趕快研議、趕快這樣處理，因為我覺得這個未來一定會碰到，我在這個地方斷言，不處理未來一定會發生。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你發生的時候，你不要說沒有辦法，因為電商沒有落地，對你造成的損害，你自己到它的國家去告它，這樣子消費者是不能接受的。次長，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["何次長晉滄：我們會照委員的提醒回去研議。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！你想想看，人家金管會有一些金融商品，它的公司必須要落地，不然不能讓它做交易。金融是商品，你這個是實質貨物商品，更需要這樣，因為金融商品造成的是金融損失，你這個實質的商品還有可能造成人身身體的損害，所以可以取法人家這樣的規定，要求這些落地。好，請你回座。","再來要請教部長，其實這一次你知道越南為什麼要去跟美國談關稅，美國都不要跟它談，你知道什麼原因嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然除了提關稅稅率之外，美方也認為還有非關稅的貿易壁壘問題存在。"],["吳委員秉叡：最重要的問題就是認為在幫中國的產品洗產地啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：洗產地，是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以這是一個臺灣未來要面對的很嚴肅問題，臺灣如果被美國認定有在幫中國的商品洗產地，我們可能將來最嚴重要承擔跟中國一樣的關稅。其實我個人的認知，川普出這個重拳的目的，第一目標就是對準中國，所以為什麼東南亞這些國家都跟美國講說我們都不要關稅，我們關稅都零，川普仍然不能接受，美國仍然不能接受，就是因為他在對付中國的洗產地。你知道臺灣目前有哪一些東西可能有這些嫌疑的？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於有關洗產地，也就是違規轉運這個部分，我們都非常重視，在海關的部分已經建置了三道防線，就是事前的預防、事中的管理以及事後的懲罰，那這個部分在三道防線之下，事實上我們已經有相關的績效，抓到一些這種違規轉運的情形，同時我們也跟經濟部成立一個橫向的機制，也就是對於我們認為高風險的廠商，我們都會定時將名冊給經濟部，然後他們對於在核發有關產地證明或許可證的時候，要更加的嚴格審核。那在我們海關的部分也會再做精進，以杜絕違規轉運。"],["吳委員秉叡：你的自由貿易港區，境內關外，中國的貨品送到自由貿易港區來，不用進到臺灣的關就轉口出去，這個要做詳細的調查跟統計，我們這個漏洞如果被美國抓住了，對臺灣是不可承受之重。所以我是先把這個話講在這邊，你們執政者要很小心這個問題，因為美國現在既然要用這麼高的關稅對抗中國、對付中國，中國跟它高度對抗，所以美國會更重視洗產地的問題，不要為了那一點點的蠅頭小利，去讓整個國家的貿易崩潰，那個後果是非常嚴重的，要加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，這部分我們會再持續的精進。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：謝謝吳秉叡吳委員。","繼續請賴士葆賴召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 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strategy double standard我跟不同的人不同的标准不同的谈但是呢我可以把它交换所以从这个里面我们看出一个结果我们需要有一个国安战略国家安全战略的引领全民群策群力形塑寒藏牵动邻国的利益营造区域平衡巩固贸易源头强化产业的链路多元生产生存的缝隙"},{"start":316.004,"end":343.548,"text":"以有利的地缘的政治经济科技环境进而善于外交的布局精进军事能量要运用以小牵大虚实联动正齐相生的合众联盟多轨并进的策略维护国家安全利益所以我们这次看到这个英法德国对于这个这个贸易的关税的问题跟这个所谓的西班牙跟意大利是不同步的"},{"start":344.605,"end":363.475,"text":"我們看到了一個什麼同路不同道同道不同德同德不同心同心不同人同人不同調所以不要用口號來喊同路人根本不重要太low end了你去看他的價值觀去看他的法律所以我們今天尊重的是我們講的民主"},{"start":364.434,"end":384.055,"text":"人权法治可是在这个国际变动的局势里面这三个它的优秀不一样它不是同步重视的所以基于这个考虑我们需要一个长期的战略跨部会的沟通协调这非常重要那刚刚讲经过多元管道这是一个正面看法可是feedback以后的如何fusing"},{"start":384.781,"end":394.16,"text":"要收敛这是另外一个挑战因此我把今天做一个最后的结论就是外交部在提出针对总统五项里面有八个做法"},{"start":395.051,"end":417.189,"text":"可是呢你必須要有主觀客觀為觀宏觀樂觀悲觀前瞻反思同時要考慮到這是政府還是政黨的政策這是動態淨碳輿論學術經濟國安是個案還是通案是科技還是醫療今天還講到藥品的問題是全面還是局部長期短期所以你會發現產生多少變化量啊"},{"start":421.595,"end":433.605,"text":"512个变化量所以当你分析的参数参考参数越多我们犯下错误决策的几率就越低不是谁绝对对谁绝对对的错而是我们现在要做"},{"start":434.79,"end":459.121,"text":"避险为先 持有保态 要长期规划 统筹执行所以这里面cover到了目的方法手段你设定的目标 选择的方法 运用的手段包括对美关系 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這個委員的高見真的我受益良多特別是把八項具體的做法一一對應那麼確實我們有一個總和外交那搭配總統他的大戰略今天的這一個彭博社的這一個文章很清楚這個路徑圖"},{"start":489.019,"end":499.44,"text":"所以川普我們要對齊他他在講什麼我們要聽的對再來我們事實上要去對接他"},{"start":501.274,"end":522.98,"text":"比如他的貿易政策他的投資政策他的所有的政策都有長年的主張跟最近的宣布再來我覺得就是到對應你要有措施所以這個從對齊對接到對應那我們才能夠去這個就算是一個國際的賽局那因為美中的抗衡"},{"start":524.252,"end":550.104,"text":"所以使這一次對我們有威脅也有機會因為紅色供應鏈跟美國會是兩套不同的系統而台灣在所謂的非紅的供應鏈裡面我們有不可或缺的角色而這個供應鏈不只是純粹從所謂的投資或者是貿易它也是個安全的戰略它甚至是一個高科技在包括未來的AI跟晶片上面的一個"},{"start":551.175,"end":570.394,"text":"美中的抗衡所以台灣呢我們怎麼樣去對應包括美國包括中國包括其他各國這個就是我們剛剛委員提到的一個戰略我們會根據委員的這個方法論好好再來檢視我們現在做的然後予以做必要的這一個增補或者是調整"},{"start":573.126,"end":585.146,"text":"謝謝部長我們也會全力支持我們國家對外的政策那麼在這個情勢下就是說資源有限時間有限我們整合作業是一個非常重要的以上提出建言謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":155,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時43分）主席，先有請外交部林部長，經濟部稍後，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員永康：部長早安。在國際動態變化的情勢裡面，唯一不變的就是持續變化，因此政府對於關稅的挑戰如何因應，這其實就是大挑戰，因為我們沒有辦法做預應，所以我們在這邊提出來。那如何預應呢？預應是full 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decoupling！今天所謂的中美競合是competition跟cooperation產生的這個coopetition，那就表示它不會脫鉤了嘛！所以在這個情勢的判斷裡面，他在談的很多可以把底線露出來，但是明天又變化了，所以中美貿易對話是不會斷的，美國跟所有國家的對話也不會斷。但是為什麼先出狠招？這叫引蛇出洞，先看你們有什麼招，然後我再把你們做區隔、區分。所以對巴拿馬的問題是叫他退出一帶一路，但是對高層領導，直接說我跟某某是好朋友，雖然今天常態性的行政對話中斷，元首還是可以對話，對完話以後，明天就可以變化。退出氣候協定、退出世界衛生組織、退出人權組織、退出教科文組織（UNESCO），隨他講！同一個時間法律施壓，同時跟菲律賓、日本軍事演習來表態！所以這個scope就顯示出來了，如果我們沒有一個完整的戰略觀，而只是針對單一問題做反應，你永遠在react、react，可是你手頭的籌碼跟你的時間是有限的，90天內要把所有東西分析出來去對口和排序，這是我們面臨的一個挑戰。","同樣的，我們行政院列出的這些條款是正面的，我們也予以肯定，但是從負面來看，你的風險在哪裡？我提供一個方法論──美國開啟全球貿易制裁與中共競合下，我外交布局及因應（沒有預應）。這次大家看到台積電的特質正好把地緣經濟、地緣政治、地緣戰略整個結合在一起。大家看本席出示的這個圖，這個供應鏈是互為上下層，而不是可以剪斷、切割的。在地緣經濟方面，要考慮人口位置、貿易源頭、產業鏈路；在地緣戰略裡面，美方考慮的是如果海峽起衝突，台積電會不會被摧毀、全世界會不會斷了晶圓的來源，所以軍事戰略要威懾嚇阻、維護利益；而在地緣政治方面，則是要考慮國家利益、合縱連橫、雙軌雙標。所謂雙軌雙標就是川普總統用得很厲害的dual strategy、double standard，跟不同的人談，有不同的標準，但是可以把它交換。","從這裡面我們看出一個結果，就是我們需要有一個國家安全戰略的引領，全民群策群力，形塑涵藏「牽動鄰國利益，營造區域平衡，鞏固貿易源頭，強化產業鏈路，多元生存縫隙」，以有利地緣政治、經濟、科技環境，進而善於外交布局、精進軍事能量，運用以小牽大、虛實聯動、奇正相生的合縱連橫、多軌並進的策略，以維護國家安全利益。所以我們這次看到英、法、德國對於貿易關稅的問題跟西班牙、義大利是不同步的，也就是同路不同道、同道不同德、同德不同心、同心不同仁、同仁不同調，所以不要用口號來喊，同路人根本不重要，太low-end了，你要去看它的價值觀、去看它的法律。我們今天尊重的是我們講的民主、人權、法治，可是在這個變動的國際局勢裡面，這三者的優先順序不一樣，它不是同步重視的。基於這個考慮，我們需要一個長期的戰略、跨部會的溝通協調，這非常重要。","剛剛講經過多元管道，這是一個正面看法，可是要如何fusion（收斂）？這是另外一個挑戰。因此我今天要做一個最後的結論，就是外交部針對總統所說的5項應變策略提出了8個做法，可是你必須要有主觀、客觀、微觀、宏觀、樂觀、悲觀、前瞻和反思，同時要考慮到：這是政府還是政黨的政策、是動態還是靜態、是輿論還是學術、是經濟還是國安、是個案還是通案、是科技還是醫療（今天還講到藥品的問題）、是全面還是局部、是長期還是短期？所以你會發現這裡面產生多少變化量？有512個變化量！當你分析的、參考的參數越多，我們犯下錯誤決策的機率就越低，不是誰絕對對、誰絕對錯，而是我們現在要避險為先、持盈保泰，要長期規劃、統籌執行。因此這裡面cover到了目的、方法、手段，你設計的目標、選擇的方法、運用的手段，包括對美關係、兩岸關係、國際協商、內外折衷，你需要晶圓支撐臺灣，又要確保能源，還要社會全韌性和國防戰力強，在這裡面，它已經超出了單一的外交或者是經濟，它是一個完整的國安考量。","我特別用現在出示的這張圖像請部長做一個參考，請部長指導。"],["林部長佳龍：對於委員的高見，我真的受益良多，特別是把8項具體作法一一對應。確實，我們有一個總合外交，搭配總統的大戰略，彭博社今天的文章有一個很清楚的路徑圖，所以對於川普，我們要對齊他：他在講什麼，我們要聽對；其次是我們要去對接他：比如他的貿易政策、投資政策，他所有的政策都有長年的主張跟最近的宣布；再來我覺得就是對應：你要有措施。所以從對齊、對接到對應，我們才能夠去……這算是一個國際的賽局，因為美中的抗衡，使這次的事情對我們有威脅，也有機會，因為紅色供應鏈跟美國是兩套不同的系統，而臺灣在所謂的非紅供應鏈裡面有不可或缺的角色，而這個供應鏈不只是純粹的投資或貿易，它也是一個安全的戰略，它甚至是一個高科技，包括在未來的AI和晶片上面的美中抗衡。","臺灣怎麼樣去對應包括美國、包括中國、包括其他各國？這就是剛剛委員提到的一個戰略，我們會根據委員的這個方法論，再好好地檢視我們正在做的，做必要的增補或調整。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長，我們也會全力支持我們國家的對外政策，在這個資源有限、時間有限的情勢下，我們的整合作業是非常重要的。以上提出建言，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員上台質詢。接下來由羅美玲委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712d9d149d18390edb3f179c558939ff989dffdecc4c49be5a7903ae40ffbf143735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:42:35 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它不得留用不過因為蔡英文總統她有提到的是說她在當在野黨主席的時候啦她事實上有提到說其實3到20都沒有問題那10%的時候是都很用所以這邊就是"},{"start":258.311,"end":286.796,"text":"這件事情我可以提升到這是一個特殊的情形大家我們知道國家的科研預算等等是必須要去做的那我這邊也是說特別檢討到我們民眾黨的立場那我們繼續往下看的時候再進一段我想要再下來一個部分就是說你們有在報告當中特別提出來說中研院有辦一個角色就是四個棒接力賽從基礎研究到產業的合作這部分特別是指責到這幾個部分那我在想請問是不是在"},{"start":287.836,"end":315.616,"text":"目前的中研院的活動當中有沒有真的是已經到達像這個四個階段到基礎研究到大學產研到工研院到給業界使用的部分可不可以舉一個例子來示用在這裡這是我們最新研發出來的高效太陽能光電全部國產的機器國內的實驗室由中研院召集國內的最精英的學者專家昨天出爐的30%"},{"start":318.297,"end":338.507,"text":"這個轉換率全部用國產的設備國產的細機那我們除了中文音樂研究之外也召集至少五間大學的教授也跟業界合作我們接下來也要跟業界成立這個產研聯盟一起來做這方面的技術"},{"start":339.247,"end":355.956,"text":"好 那這樣很好我看到有這樣的一個成就有在發表然後我們繼續往下看我想要另外談到因為你也是身兼這個部分我想這個部分我們就先調過去了重點是說因為你也身兼到氣候變遷的對策小組裡面的副召集人"},{"start":357.217,"end":374.091,"text":"淨零碳排這一部分有一個部分是在去碳燃氫那這邊的部分上面我們再往下面看的時候就看到是說它有技術性的部分這部分也就是中研院可能在進行的那第二個部分可能我想要談到的我從人文社會出發在想的是說也有部分就是在所謂碳廢的這一些部分"},{"start":374.591,"end":390.081,"text":"他必須要去支持還有另外一部分呢是在於說在下面兩頁的時候可以看到他有涉及到的是有一個在下一頁可以看到的是說呢他有建立公民社會組織參與這個社會溝通平台那請問一下中研院有沒有對於說因為人們還是支持這些碳費碳費或碳稅這些的支持還有說公民的這個參與平台請問在人文社會處這一部分社會組這邊有沒有針對這個部分有一些的有一些相關的研究"},{"start":404.19,"end":423.492,"text":"有 我們在這個淨零計畫當中其中有一支是委託社會所林宗鴻研究員做一些社會溝通 社會調查那就是各種淨零政策的對民眾的接受度 民眾的意向等等做了相當深入的研究所以這邊是有的"},{"start":424.332,"end":427.214,"text":"那會發生什麼效果會有一個時程表就是促進我們的尤其是你在當副召集人是不是可以提出來說讓我們政府在這邊在碳稅上面符合國際的這個標準等等的這些部分有沒有一個行動的計畫等等碳稅 至於碳稅碳費的部分目前好像據我了解還沒有做到這一個部分因為"},{"start":446.164,"end":455.689,"text":"那個跟一般民眾稍微一點距離比較跟產業界比較接近所以這部分未來我們會納入但是目前好像還沒有到這個地步"},{"start":456.665,"end":482.2,"text":"那我就希望您在作為對策小組的副召集的時候能夠推出這些部分因為2050或是說今年的2026的時候明年2026的時候歐盟的部分這個CBAN就要進行了那下面有個問題就是說您在能源的態度上面因為您在過去的發表聯絡在去年到今年往下的狀況"},{"start":483.681,"end":511.522,"text":"特別有呈現出來的說您在對第三代第四代核能等等甚至說您因為說淨零碳排的需求是很重要往下點點點因為我們就好幾篇文章這邊講說都是您曾經討論到德國的部分台灣核能的部分在共識之後也可以得到一些讓核廢料也處理的情況可以讓台灣有更好的安全選擇來去進行好那這個情況下我想要問的是您再往下一頁"},{"start":512.763,"end":536.973,"text":"那您對於這個召集人對能源選項的立場為何那你對台灣有本錢放棄核能嗎我想這個一個政策一個能源政策要推動有四個面向第一個是科技的面向那我們是緊究科技面向來探討說核能方面科技面向是可以做的那剩下來看是不是和經濟效益這部分恐怕要經濟部或相關單位來判斷"},{"start":540.214,"end":568.728,"text":"接下來要政治方面是不是可行社會可不可以接受這就完全不是中央醫院可以智慧的地方所以我們是緊就這個科技方面提出我們的意見然後希望社會能夠接下來進行看說社會的接受度那您的立場呢您的立場我們在立場是認為說在科技方面我們儘量利用科技解決社會的疑慮利用科技解決政治上的困難利用科技降低"},{"start":569.008,"end":578.293,"text":"所以在科技沒有問題的情況之下 核能是一個好的選項 是嗎是的 教科技 我們要引進新的科技把現在即使是認為我們認為說現在的我們既有的核能設備有點老舊即使我們將來假如經過檢查還需要改善我們應該引進新的科技幫他改善"},{"start":591.781,"end":604.99,"text":"好那往下一部分可是我們的環境基本法當中有提到往下往下核能基本法的環境基本法這邊有提到是說我們要訂定這個達成非核家園的目標氣候變遷因應法當中有提到說要逐步落實非核家園願景那您的看法這邊的話是不是跟你當年態度上"},{"start":610.094,"end":637.089,"text":"這根本就已經不是這個科技的面向是我剛才講的是政治跟社會的面向這個就不是中研院的專業我們期待說相關單位包括這個全社會人士能夠大家一起努力看凝聚共識怎麼樣再往前走好 謝謝那個廖院長您在整個在能源政策上面提出中研院做一個最高的學術單位的時候所做的立場好 謝謝廖院長還有各位謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（9時42分）謝謝召委，有請廖俊智院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：劉委員早。"],["劉委員書彬：院長好。對於您昨天提出來的中研院的書面報告，我看到內容非常的詳細，先給您一些讚許。中研院的功能在網羅傑出人才方面，我們可以看到有很多的特點，我們可以看到的是針對有潛力的優秀人才跟國際生，還有在國內的部分，都把重點放在所謂新的研究人員的培育，對於這部分，我是非常肯定的，然後還包括在人文社會領域體系，要培養人文素養，這是好的事情。","中研院是我國最高的學術研究機構，他呈現出來的應該是一種嚴謹、認真的態度，但是根據立法院預算中心對中研院114年度單位預算所做的評估報告，針對延攬傑出學者任職，還有博士後培育計畫這兩個部分，發現實際值遠低於目標值的狀況，特別是大家可以看到在113年的部分，延攬傑出學者的目標值是10，但是實際上到位的只有1個人的情形；還包括剛才說的博士後學者的培育也遠低於目標值，中研院知不知道原因？對於本院預算中心所做的評估報告，你們知道原因是什麼嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：在延攬資深學人的部分，假如我們延攬成功，非常成功的話我們就不需要用到這筆錢，因為會變成人事費，會變成這樣子；只有不成功，就是一半成功，他來做part-time的才會用到的情況。所以過去幾年，我們事實上延攬了許多優秀的所長、中心主任，很多都在座，因為所需經費都變成人事費，所以就不會用到這筆經費，但是我們仍然需要編一些，以備萬一需要用到的時候。"],["劉委員書彬：但是我的意思是，為什麼會有這個狀況，是有什麼困難度？我的重點是在這裡。"],["廖院長俊智：這個是以備萬一的時候，這不是困難度，並不是我們一定要用到這個，等於是真的做得很成功，我們真正的目標是要把他延攬回來變成我們的專職人員，就用人事費來聘僱。"],["劉委員書彬：好，如果是這樣的情況之下，您的原因就是先妥善地放著在這邊，若有需求的時候，剛好時機配合了就會進來，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["劉委員書彬：但是我們看下一頁，貴院回復本院的預算報告中可以看出，你們把這部分等等的都說出來了，就是還是需要敬請惠予支持。不過在112年審預算的時候，立法院根本沒有去刪，也沒有去凍113年的經費。您的理由如果說得清楚的話，那表示還要再繼續增加經費，在餘額還存在的情況之下，若還要再增加經費，事實上並不是這麼合理的。"],["廖院長俊智：沒有，我們沒有增加，都是逐年減少，這個部分已經逐年減少。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，我們看到114年還是10個人喔！"],["廖院長俊智：那是目標值，但錢數是逐年減少，因為我們希望……"],["劉委員書彬：你們編列的預算是都有在增加，但今年我覺得要……"],["廖院長俊智：沒有，預算沒有增加。"],["劉委員書彬：等一下我們就會看到，如果再往下看，就會講到預算的問題。不過，我想在預算的部分，您特別在我就任的時候有來做拜訪，在這邊就是說今年我們會呈現出來，今年是一個特別的年，是第一次有三黨不過半。在預算上面，關於你們的部分，特別在國外旅費、國內旅費當中，這些都是統刪的部分，不得流用。不過因為蔡英文前總統有提到，是他在當在野黨主席的時候，事實上有提到其實刪到20%都沒有問題，10%的時候都還可以用。所以在這段期間我可以體認到這是一個特殊的情形，我們知道國家的科研預算等等是必須要去做的，我這邊也只是特別強調我們台灣民眾黨的立場。","再來，我想要針對一個部分，你們在報告當中有特別提出，中研院有扮演一個角色，就是四個棒的接力賽，從基礎研究到產業合作這一部分，特別是這幾個部分，我想請問的是，在目前中研院的活動當中，有沒有真的是已經到達這四個階段，也就是從基礎研究到應研（大學）到產研（工研院）到給業界使用的部分，可不可以舉一個例子來適用？"],["廖院長俊智：在這裡。"],["劉委員書彬：那是？"],["廖院長俊智：這是我們最新研發出來的高效太陽能光電，全部用國產的機器、國內的實驗室，由中研院召集國內最精英的學者專家，昨天出爐的30%轉換率，全部用國產的設備、國產的矽基，除了中研院研究之外，也召集了至少5間大學的教授，也跟業界合作，我們接下來也要跟業界成立產研聯盟，一起來做這方面的技術轉移。"],["劉委員書彬：這樣很好，有看到這樣的一個成果在發展。我們繼續往下看，我想要另外談到，因為你也身兼氣候變遷對策小組副召集人，在淨零碳排方面，有一個部分是在去碳燃氫，它有技術性的部分，這部分也就是中研院可能在進行的。第二個部分，可能我想要談到的會是從人文社會出發，也就是在所謂碳費的這些部分，它必須要去支持。還有另外一部分是在於它有沒有建立公民社會組織參與的社會溝通平臺。因為人們還是支持這些碳費、碳稅還有公民的參與平臺，請問在人文社會組部分，中研院有沒有針對這個部分有些相關的研究？"],["廖院長俊智：有，我們在淨零計畫當中，其中有一支是委託社會所林宗弘研究員做一些社會溝通、社會調查，對於各種淨零政策的民眾接受度、意向等等做了相當深入的研究，所以這部分是有的。"],["劉委員書彬：會發生什麼效果？有沒有一個時程表？尤其你當副召集人，是不是可以提出讓政府在碳稅上面符合國際的標準等等的，這些部分有沒有一個行動計畫？"],["廖院長俊智：至於碳稅、碳費的部分，目前據我了解還沒有做到這個部分，因為跟一般民眾稍微有點距離，跟產業界比較接近，所以這部分未來我們會納入，但是目前好像還沒有到這個地步。"],["劉委員書彬：我希望您作為對策小組副召集人的時候能夠推出這些部分，因為2050年或是明年（2026年）的時候……"],["廖院長俊智：這方面……"],["劉委員書彬：歐盟的CBAM就要進行了。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["劉委員書彬：下面有個問題，是您對再生能源的態度，因為你在過去的發表，從去年到今年的狀況，特別有呈現出來的是您對第三代、第四代核能等等的部分，甚至是對於淨零碳排的需求是很重要。有好幾篇文章，都是您曾經討論到德國的部分，而臺灣核能的部分，在有共識之後，在核廢料的處理情況上可以讓臺灣有更好的安全選擇去進行。在這個情況下，我想要問的是，您身為副召集人，對能源選項的立場為何？你認為臺灣有本錢放棄核能嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想一個能源政策要推動有四個面向，第一個是科技面向，我們是謹就科技面向來探討，核能方面在科技面向是可以做的，而剩下來的就是是否合乎經濟效益，這部分恐怕要由經濟部或相關單位來判斷，接下來是政治方面是不是可行、社會可不可以接受，這就完全不是中研院可以置喙的地方。所以我們是謹就科技方面提出我們的意見，希望社會能夠接下來進行社會的接受度，然後做一些……"],["劉委員書彬：您的立場呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我們的立場是認為在科技方面儘量利用科技解決社會的疑慮、利用科技解決政治上的困難、利用科技降低經濟的成本。"],["劉委員書彬：所以在科技沒有問題的情況之下，核能是一個好的選項，是嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，我們要引進新的科技，即使我們認為現在既有的核能設備有點老舊，將來假如經過檢查還需要改善，我們應該引進新的科技來幫它改善。"],["劉委員書彬：可是在環境基本法當中有提到我們要訂定達成非核家園的目標，在氣候變遷因應法當中也提到要逐步落實非核家園願景，請問您的看法及態度呢？"],["廖院長俊智：這部分已經不是科技面向，而是我剛才講的政治跟社會面向，這個就不是中研院的專業，我們期待相關單位包括全社會人士能夠大家一起努力、凝聚共識，看怎麼樣再往前走。"],["劉委員書彬：謝謝廖院長，您在整個能源政策上面提出中研院作為最高學術單位時所持的立場，謝謝廖院長及各位。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員，院長請回。","接下來請葛如鈞召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712bb4aa13f7b33d84739fb4699fde53261dffdecc4c49be5a704779979c8b02f845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:31:02 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普關稅政策我國各層面帶來的衝擊你認為影響是一時的還是有可能遞延的影響"},{"start":64.738,"end":90.286,"text":"包委員這個就是說90天的這個觀察期這個舒緩的就是說他一開始對整個全球的影響但是這30天呢這個90天呢還必須要觀察所以就是說如果說這個這個不確定性還是依然的揮之不去還是存在他還是會存在那個莊財是那你認為這個"},{"start":94.404,"end":120.732,"text":"會不會有可能這個地緣的影響又或者相互間會產生一些連動的效應會不會當然啦就是說剛剛也就是說如果這個不確定性的因素沒辦法消除的時候呢那麼這個影響就會一直遞延下去那這樣的話呢就事實上對整個全聯來講的話他的金融市場的一個波動度呢還是會還是會有總裁"},{"start":122.973,"end":144.966,"text":"因為本席這個憂心的是這個基於受衝擊的是全球各大經濟體所以說影響時間長效應深遠那請問你認為會不會發生全球關稅戰會不會現在看起來就是說有一些的國家要去跟他談"},{"start":145.866,"end":169.966,"text":"當然我在想這是我個人的看法就是說川普也知道就是說這一次的這個一開始的那個衝擊是非常大的所以應該就是說他在談判上應該會比較鬆一點但是至於對於那些就是說要跟他硬碰硬的這個還是會造成整個全球的一個經貿的影響"},{"start":171.747,"end":197.912,"text":"而且是對岸中國你看他中國也是很硬喔是喔是喔是喔那不但這個不跟他談甚至於還也給美國加很大很大的關稅那因為以目前我們整個政府的因應措施九大面向二十項的措施總經費880億的協助方案你認為是不是足以來應付川普關稅政策帶給台灣的衝擊"},{"start":201.533,"end":208.697,"text":"這個是我個人的看法啦我不能代表行政院來回答這個問題當然880億是現在的一個評估那現在就是說要一段期間之後還要再評估他這個880億是不是足夠"},{"start":222.606,"end":247.702,"text":"如果說他的一個影響是很大他的衝擊是很大的話那恐怕這個金額還是要加大因為以你中央銀行專業的立場應該你是可以就是比較深入啦謝謝你鼓勵川普暫緩90天的實施新關稅你認為政府因應措施是不是也會有一些遞言的實施遞言效果的實施"},{"start":250.703,"end":274.108,"text":"應該 我想呢 也應該要就未雨綢繆啊那所以就是說 雖然這三個月的時間可以再有一個密切的一個觀察不過呢 我總覺得提早準備是更好對啊 你要做充分的準備啊請問總裁 這次國安基金的進場你認為護盤基金需要多少嗎"},{"start":275.268,"end":280.57,"text":"因為以前富盤基金說5000億不過市場有一些建議希望5000億能夠擴大不過如果說我們來看待我們的股市它的市值確實"},{"start":295.876,"end":307.852,"text":"它是增加了將近是增加是很多的那你等於是賦水休息嘛那這個可以評估這個可以考慮不過這個是國安基金它本身要那你認為護盤的時間會不會比以前更久"},{"start":309.302,"end":333.355,"text":"這個我沒辦法來預測這個我沒辦法預測總裁因為川普關稅政策的效應你認為會不會讓我們整個台灣股市提前走入熊市會不會現在目前還是那個uncertainty就是他的不確定性真的還是非常的高所以我們現在如果說要做一個很"},{"start":334.516,"end":352.996,"text":"很直接的就是說下一個判斷說實在是言之過早那個總裁因為這種面對關稅政策的股市反應到底是這個人造熊市的短期現象還是會加速來催化"},{"start":353.797,"end":374.277,"text":"整個台股啊走入空頭市場的前奏曲一鳴看所以還是在強調的就是說這個不確定性不確定性還是在強調這個不確定性如果說這個不確定性可以把它排除掉的時候呢我覺得啊應該股市他是還是會回歸到他的基本面總裁"},{"start":375.595,"end":402.808,"text":"你曾說你對從對等關稅的角度來看台灣應該不在其中就算台灣對美順差大也因台美是互補的關係所以這個不是不公平這個貿易那我請問總裁是所以你對台美貿易的互補關係的看法對照美國對台灣科"},{"start":405.429,"end":429.054,"text":"32%的關稅的決定請問到底是我們誤解台美關係還是美國根本就是吃定了我們你認為呢 吃定了台灣我認為他也不是單獨就台灣來就是說吃定了我們台灣只是說他的一個公式呢他的不合理性是適用所有的國家"},{"start":430.274,"end":442.718,"text":"適用所有的國家所以我們也不能說他單獨對我們因為他的這個公式是太過粗劣了太過粗劣不是粗劣 粗暴對 應該是說粗暴太過粗暴了所以也不是說他只是針對台灣來那主要的就是說因為台灣對他的貿易順差是大了但是他都沒有考慮到台灣的這個對他的順差事實上是他需要我們的產品"},{"start":459.343,"end":463.308,"text":"沒有 我們什麼都給人家的啊我們產品對它的生產力是有貢獻的也就是說我們台灣對它的一個共識是蠻大的我們產品對它的經濟的生產力是很有貢獻的現在最嚴重就是我們沒有籌碼跟人家談"},{"start":477.186,"end":497.146,"text":"你認不認同因為你的戲隊我們台積電已經說要去那裡設廠那些衛星工廠也跟著都去甚至於啊他把其他的一些有關IC的產業全部都要過去你說未來我們是剩什麼對不對總裁針對川普的"},{"start":498.487,"end":519.177,"text":"關稅政策請問總裁你認為川普真的是以對等關稅來作為出發點的決定如果是以賴總統回應川普不採取關稅報復從零關稅談起的立場台美之間能夠站在實質公平的立足點來談判協商嗎你認為呢"},{"start":521.218,"end":544.243,"text":"我想這個是雙方啦雙方當然就是說要對等的話呢就必須要去好好的談那當然要去好好的談那這個呢彼此會互相更了解所以你看我想應該就是說各個國家去跟他談的話應該會有效果這是我個人的猜測但願如此啦總裁如果川普"},{"start":545.463,"end":565.434,"text":"關稅政策是手段公平貿易是政策合法性的包裝最終目的是在其他方面請問你認為台灣要怎麼去面對這種不確定性的政策呢所以唯一的途徑還是就是說去跟他好好的談"},{"start":566.97,"end":585.085,"text":"這是唯一的途徑總裁本席任何大多數人都不樂見好不容易慢慢互輸的疫後經濟又轉壞但是川普政策的不確定性的負面影響恐怕比較大"},{"start":585.805,"end":603.955,"text":"那最近啦 台經院也公布二月景氣動向調查後張建義院長表示以對等關稅或是貿易量貿易順差來看台灣可能是汽車啦 農業產品影響較大那總裁 如果農產品關稅影響大請問你認為會不會對國內進出口農產品的價格產生這個聯乙的效應"},{"start":615.802,"end":633.297,"text":"我想如果說是農業產品的話可能是會啦但是就是說這個也就是說如果說對這些的產業有發生比較大的損失的時候我覺得政府也可以考量到要做某些的一個補償"},{"start":634.298,"end":655.999,"text":"那如果會的話你認為今年的CPI還有CCPI是不是會出現上修的空間會不會到目前為止我們還是認為我們的物價還是會穩定的會穩定總裁根據美國財經媒體彭博模型的推估一旦對台灣課徵32%的關稅台灣對美出口將減少"},{"start":661.624,"end":682.023,"text":"約63%大約會讓GDP縮減3.8%那我請問總裁你認為彭博模型是高估還是低估整個關稅對台灣GDP萎縮的影響我想彭博的這個我總覺得是他可能是用很"},{"start":683.304,"end":696.241,"text":"很悲觀的一個情境很悲觀的情境但是呢就誠如我們的報告所說的到目前為止呢這都是僅供參考而已啦因為後續還有談判啊什麼之類的所以這個就是還有一點就是主攻參考啦"},{"start":699.445,"end":726.037,"text":"只供參考總裁請問你認為我們政府需不需要調整整個政策方向換句話說新南向國家萬一受關稅關稅戰的影響政府會不會調整既定的政策計畫會不會我想台灣是一個是一個小型開放的經濟體我們國際化還是要國際化的國際化還是國際化但是這一次的關稅的政策"},{"start":727.097,"end":739.061,"text":"因為他的一個供應鏈的一個場所呢還是會做一些某些的調整所以還是會調整對啦事前要防範啦要做多元啦怎麼去杜絕防範好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時31分）謝謝主席以及與會的各部會首長還有各位同仁，我是不是特別邀請中央銀行楊總裁？"],["主席：總裁，請。"],["楊總裁金龍：林委員早。"],["林委員德福：總裁你好。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：我請教，雖然川普昨天又宣布，對於未報復美國的這些國家關稅措施暫緩90天實施，但針對川普關稅政策對我國股匯市以及經濟成長、物價，包括房市所造成的衝擊與因應的措施，請問總裁，川普關稅政策對我國各層面帶來的衝擊，你認為影響是一時的，還是可能有遞延影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，這個90天的觀察期，舒緩了他一開始對整個全球的影響，但是這90天還必須要觀察，也就是說，如果這個不確定性依然揮之不去的話……"],["林委員德福：還是存在？"],["楊總裁金龍：還是會存在。"],["林委員德福：總裁，你認為這會不會有遞延影響？又或者相互間會產生一些連動效應，會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，剛剛也說了，如果這個不確定性因素沒辦法消除，那麼這個影響就會一直遞延下去，事實上這樣對於全年來講，金融市場的波動度還是會有的。"],["林委員德福：非常好，總裁，本席憂心的是，受衝擊的是全球各大經濟體，所以影響時間長、效應深遠，請問你認為會不會發生全球關稅戰，會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在看起來有一些國家要去跟他談，當然我在想……這是我個人的看法，川普也知道這次一開始的衝擊是非常大的，所以他在談判上應該會比較鬆一點，至於對於那些要跟他硬碰硬的，還是會造成全球經貿的影響。"],["林委員德福：會影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：還是會。"],["林委員德福：你看對岸中國，中國也是很硬喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["林委員德福：他們不但不跟他談，甚至也給美國加很高很高的關稅。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：因為目前我們整個政府的因應措施有九大面向、二十項措施，總經費880億的協助方案，你認為是不是足以應付川普關稅政策帶給臺灣的衝擊？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個是我個人的看法，我不能代表行政院來回答這個問題。當然880億是現在的評估，要在一段期間之後，再評估這個880億是不是足夠？如果它的impact、衝擊很大的話，恐怕這個金額還是要加大。"],["林委員德福：因為以你中央銀行專業的立場，你應該可以比較深入……"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝你的鼓勵。"],["林委員德福：川普暫緩90天實施新關稅，你認為政府因應措施是不是也會有一些遞延效果的實施？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想應該要先未雨綢繆，也就是說，雖然這三個月的時間可以再密切觀察，不過我總覺得提早準備是更好。"],["林委員德福：對啊，你要做充分的準備啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["林委員德福：請問總裁，這次國安基金的進場，你認為護盤基金需要多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為以前護盤基金是5,000億，不過市場有一些建議，希望這個5,000億能夠擴大，不過如果我們來看看我們的股市，它的市值確實是增加了將近……"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：增加是很多的……"],["林委員德福：你等於是杯水車薪嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：這也可以評估、考慮，不過這個是國安基金本身要……"],["林委員德福：那你認為護盤的時間會不會比以前更久？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我沒辦法來……"],["林委員德福：沒辦法預測？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我沒辦法預測。"],["林委員德福：總裁，因為川普關稅政策的效應，你認為會不會讓我們整個臺灣股市提前走入熊市，會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：目前還是uncertainty，它的不確定性真的還是非常高，所以我們現在如果要很直截的下一個判斷，說實在是言之過早。"],["林委員德福：總裁，這種面對關稅政策的股市反應到底是人造熊市的短期現象，還是會加速催化整個臺股走入空頭市場的前奏曲？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以還是在強調這個不確定性。"],["林委員德福：不確定性？"],["楊總裁金龍：還是在強調這個不確定性。如果這個不確定性可以排除掉時，我覺得股市應該還是會回歸到基本面。"],["林委員德福：總裁，你曾說從對等關稅的角度來看，臺灣應該不在其中；就算臺灣對美國順差大，也因臺美是互補關係，所以不是不公平貿易。我請問總裁，以你對臺美貿易互補關係的看法，對照美國對臺灣課徵32%關稅的決定，請問到底是我們誤解臺美關係，還是美國根本就吃定了臺灣？你認為呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我認為他不是單獨針對臺灣或吃定我們臺灣，只是他的公式具不合理性，且適用所有國家，所以我們不能說單獨針對我們。因為他的公式太過粗略了，你看看……"],["林委員德福：不是粗略，是粗暴！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，應該說太過粗暴，但並不是只針對臺灣而來。主要是因為臺灣對美貿易順差大，但他都沒有考慮到臺灣對美的順差事實上是因為美國需要我們的產品……"],["林委員德福：我們什麼都給人家了！包括矽盾台積電……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的產品對其提高生產力是有貢獻的！也就是說，我們臺灣對其貢獻滿大的，我們的產品對其經濟生產力是很有貢獻的。"],["林委員德福：現在最嚴重就是，我們沒有籌碼跟人家談，你認不認同？因為我們的矽盾台積電已經說要去那裡設廠，連那些衛星工廠也都跟著去，甚至其他有關的IC產業全部都要過去，未來我們剩什麼？對不對，總裁？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：針對川普的關稅政策，請問總裁，你認為川普真的是以對等關稅作為出發點來決定的嗎？如果以賴總統回應川普所說，不採取關稅報復、從零關稅談起的立場來看，臺美之間能夠站在實質公平的立足點來談判協商嗎？你認為呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：雙方要對等的話，就必須好好的談……"],["林委員德福：對，但是他不可能這樣跟你對等啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以當然要好好的談，這樣彼此會互相更了解，我想各個國家去跟他談的話應該會有效果……"],["林委員德福：會有效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：這是我個人的猜測。"],["林委員德福：但願如此！總裁，如果川普的關稅政策是手段，公平貿易是政策合法性的包裝，最終目的是在其他方面的話，請問你認為臺灣要怎麼面對這種不確定性的政策？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以唯一的途徑還是去跟他好好的談，這是唯一的途徑。"],["林委員德福：總裁，本席認為大多數人都不樂見好不容易慢慢復甦的疫後經濟又轉壞，但現在川普政策不確定性的負面影響恐怕會比較大！最近台經院也公布2月景氣動向調查結果，張建一院長表示，以對等關稅或貿易量、貿易順差來看，臺灣可能是汽車、農業產品的影響較大。總裁，如果農產品受關稅影響大，請問會不會對國內進出口農產品價格產生漣漪效應，會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：農業產品的話可能會！所以如果這些產業發生比較大的損失時，政府可以考量做某些補償。"],["林委員德福：如果會的話，你認為今年的CPI、還有CCPI是不是會出現上修的空間？會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我們還是認為我們的物價是會穩定的。"],["林委員德福：會穩定？"],["楊總裁金龍：是會穩定的。"],["林委員德福：根據美國財經媒體彭博模型的推估，一旦對臺灣課徵32%的關稅，臺灣對美出口將減少約63%，大約會讓GDP縮減3.8%。我請問總裁，你認為彭博模型是高估還是低估關稅對臺灣GDP萎縮的影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：我總覺得彭博可能是用很悲觀的情境……"],["林委員德福：悲觀？"],["楊總裁金龍：用很悲觀的情境。但誠如我們的報告所說，到目前為止都是僅供參考而已，因為後續還有談判什麼之類的，所以只供參考。"],["林委員德福：只供參考？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，只供參考。"],["林委員德福：請問你認為政府需不需要調整政策方向？換句話說，新南向國家萬一受關稅戰影響，政府會不會調整既定的政策計畫？會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：臺灣是一個小型開放的經濟體，我們除了國際化，還是要國際化，至於這一次的關稅政策，我想供應鏈的場所還是會做某些調整，所以還是會調整。"],["林委員德福：對，事前要防範，要多元，重點是怎麼去杜絕和防範。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員的質詢。","下一位請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-7","speakers":["賴士葆","林思銘","鍾佳濱","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","羅明才","廖先翔","葉元之","顏寬恒","徐欣瑩","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王世堅"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、行政院主計總處陳主計長\n淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部郭部長智輝、農業部陳部長駿季就「川普對等關稅政策實施，\n對我國股匯市、經濟成長、物價、房市等項所造成之衝擊與因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；二、審查「納稅者權利保護法」4案：(一)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「納稅者權利保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第四條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 本院委員林思銘等20 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第七條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、( 四) 本院委員林思銘等18 人擬具「納稅者權利保護法第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 8 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員鍾佳濱等 18 人、委員鍾佳濱等 23\n人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」等 3案、(二)\n本院委員陳超明等18人、委員邱志偉等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修\n正草案」等2案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人、委員顏寬恒等16人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型\n營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143601_00006"}}},{"id":"160040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97127ad2eb777d2ec27bf9600c3f6b437ac2dffdecc4c49be5a7a189f99eb07134245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:31:03 - 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謝謝主席 麻煩外交部長林佳龍我們時間有限 我儘速請教幾個問題川普發布這個授權authorize這個90天的pause"},{"start":23.584,"end":36.555,"text":"當然前面有講因為基礎是根據75個國家以上提出相關的談判那昨天我在問國安局的時候其實就在詢問這個可能性也就是說在它執行的前夕會不會把它分類成兩大類報復的"},{"start":38.877,"end":65.34,"text":"跟願意談的因為全部執行下去看起來美國自己受創也會很重所以要把它暫停下來了那這個暫停下來今天美國的股市暴漲3.5萬億美元是16年來的最高紀錄所以它產生一些效應我先請教你看它全文它提到70多個國家因為這70多個國家提出談判所以我現在授權行政部門去做一些暫停"},{"start":66.541,"end":91.786,"text":"這裡面有沒有明確指出這75個國家通通列入暫停你們有沒有去確認台灣是不是這些被暫停的some countries我們有沒有在那裡面有有確認了嗎是好這第一個所以已經確認台灣是暫停90天的國家行列之一那我第二個要請教的是你們有沒有做一些了解所有提出談判的國家都有被暫停嗎"},{"start":94.614,"end":104.655,"text":"因為我不是美方我不知道它其實能明白每一個國家但是就我們部分我們台灣確認有被暫停那其他國家有沒有被暫停為什麼要了解"},{"start":105.839,"end":129.319,"text":"出口貿易不是只單向市場還要看競爭對手哪些國家我們也許台商間接投資在那邊設廠哪些國家可能是我們競逐同一個商品行業的競爭者他加了125%我暫停下來當然會產生競爭優劣的差距至少未來兩季會有影響所以我們目前沒有去蒐集是否所有"},{"start":130.253,"end":156.762,"text":"提出談判要求的國家都列入90天暫緩的行列這個不確定啦不確定 但就剛剛講基礎關稅的部分因為我們是10%嘛所以我們現在就是說比較屬於有利的地位啦那我們其他部位有沒有人知道是不是所有提出談判的國家75個國家或更多有沒有同步列入如果沒有的話麻煩蒐集一下我第二個要請教一下"},{"start":157.862,"end":183.14,"text":"那我們現在已經在時程上要進行談判了嘛那我看他們有的是經過USTR提出有的經過財政部提出有的經過外交單位提出啦我們台灣提出談判的要求賴清德總統的五項策略我們是跟他們哪個單位提出的我們是透過多元管道那同時展開那目前呢也都有你的多元管道是指通通都記"},{"start":184.341,"end":199.328,"text":"總是我們當然不管是官方或是非正式的包括我們的各個單位或者是企業界還有各種方式因為川普的這個總統他的這個決策圈牽涉到未來90天"},{"start":200.569,"end":211.2,"text":"因為75個國家談判關稅不是小事情當然川普用的是一個簡單粗暴的方式可能會很快但以往一個國家要談就好幾年何況是90天我們縱使現在危機暫時緩解90天我還是要擔心80天後"},{"start":216.284,"end":233.532,"text":"預告要怎麼樣的事情所以我們到底是經過哪一個單位掛號進去要談判那未來也許跟他談的是經由這個單位我們還是要回到正式的管道啦那我們的美處跟USTR也都有聯繫啦我坦白講USTR很慢啦"},{"start":234.152,"end":261.855,"text":"對 那是其中一個嘛 那怎麼去促進能夠來加速 這個是我們我們是經由哪個管道提出談判要求的多元管道去接觸那也得到確認他們有收到訊息那也就我們官方的管道裡面當然美處就是我們各部會啊在那邊的代表處都有都有人嘛 各組長嘛那也跟美方的這個"},{"start":262.775,"end":268.899,"text":"因為機關上還是美國貿易代表還是一個最重要的要對接的窗口你也請上來我們未來進行溝通談判是經由哪個單位"},{"start":276.54,"end":297.349,"text":"因為現在的決策方式看起來財政部部長USTR跟商務部都有影響權所以就如同林教長部長所提的我們是透過多元的管道那USTR當然一定是我們的管道之一USTR因為USTR我們過去不管談哪個項目其實都蠻慢的這個是實話你認為這90天內我們排的"},{"start":301.671,"end":309.06,"text":"順序會在優先順序還是還是要排隊他不會是根據掛號啦他可能根據他們美方的需求的優先順序"},{"start":311.053,"end":327.882,"text":"確實我想美國他是按照他自己本身的利益以及跟這些國家的貿易逆差的大小來決定順位但是因為我們在幾天之前我們已經掛商號所以我想我們一定會持續的努力爭取希望可以盡快的跟這一個有關外交部或者我們經貿談判辦你像我們注意到在"},{"start":332.74,"end":356.742,"text":"4月8號跟今天美國的財政部長貝森特特別有提他提了兩件事情我覺得好險他提第一個事情他說中國升級用對等對抗的方式就好像以為拿了一對二就在跟美國玩博弈他認為這是極度愚蠢因為兩邊的貿易是5比1"},{"start":360.512,"end":369.37,"text":"這個對等的報復對中國來講他一定輸定的牌我就想到我們台灣國內有些人本來還講說台灣政府應該一起跟著中國報復啊"},{"start":371.021,"end":396.673,"text":"我們是以出口為導向美國現在是我們第一大出口市場在1月份到2月份已經正式超越中港所以如果採取對等報復的時候今天公佈我們台灣就會在那一邊在125%那一邊在小額的800美元以下90%的那一邊你知道那台灣的中小企業已經全部完蛋了90天內訂單都沒有了所以國內有些負荷的中國這種呼籲的"},{"start":398.39,"end":417.201,"text":"坦白講我不用政治去看這件事情要不然就外行要不然根本不把台灣以中小企業出口為主的產業體系不當一回事倒是賴總統這五項策略穩穩的把這個事情控制下來所以我這邊提醒外交部跟談判辦就是說未來90天很重要"},{"start":418.106,"end":435.12,"text":"我們現在是鬆一口氣我猜啦我猜今天早上台股應該也是會不錯啦那大概去排隊等單的會很高興但是人民高興是好事政府官員要去想未來90天內我們多快可以達成一定的協議"},{"start":436.441,"end":460.769,"text":"這個是我希望未來我們招委這邊可以再排特別在經過45天以後我們的進度就明確了對口是哪個單位談的項目是什麼東西真的是零關稅基準嗎零關稅基準我們國內產業的衝擊可以允許補貼到什麼程度這都是談判的重點不容易所以請談判辦跟外交部準備好我現在兩位請回請經濟部跟財政部"},{"start":464.625,"end":487.622,"text":"是 我也很好川普的宣布其實第二件重要的事情是對於暫緩90天這是一件事他裡面特別點出來說指點中國事實上對等報復的加拿大也有25%但加拿大已經宣布執行了所以他不在這一波歐盟也宣布要即將採取報復那川普認為他不叫對等報復所以好像也放了只有中國 中國坑了"},{"start":488.502,"end":508.582,"text":"水價外加就是原來的稅由外加125%的稅低於800美金的郵寄商品從免稅調高到90%的這個是懲罰性的一個關稅因為本來只有30現在調高到90%那我請教請教經濟部跟財政部我們現在應該要注意什麼中國這個當然中國經濟一定會受重創"},{"start":512.165,"end":527.411,"text":"那重創他們國家你繼續擔心我們擔心是我們台灣跟台商我們經濟部現在跟財政部應該注意什麼事情首先我跟委員報告我們要注意兩點第一個是我們台商在大陸的經營方式"},{"start":528.395,"end":552.868,"text":"因為某些台商雖然在川普1.0的時代已經有撤出中國市場到其他國家去佈局但是還是有部分的廠商留在中國我們的台商因為放在中國那邊要面對125%我們當然也要關心我們在海外的台灣的生意人你們關注的焦點是什麼 協助他轉移"},{"start":553.396,"end":578.238,"text":"我們會第一個我們還是會歡迎他回台投資因為台灣投資台灣三大方案會持續的進行這個部分我了解我待會把你summarize一下我現在要問的是對於中國小額因為我們後續的談判這一題跟前一題有關係後續的談判他以美國一定會看你有沒有成為第三方偷技術洗產地到貨的地方嗎"},{"start":579.246,"end":607.143,"text":"這就像兩部經濟部跟財政部嘛對於中國那種單一品項你知道他用郵寄中港澳郵寄到美國的貨品佔他出口的百分之九十欸那個課九十趴齁其實中國影響大以外他一定想辦法倒貨昨天在英國國會就開了一個會題目叫做當孩子可以買到便宜的聖誕節玩具的時候他這題目很有創意對啊他倒貨就變便宜可是父母會失去工作"},{"start":608.697,"end":618.167,"text":"所以我不知道經濟部跟財政部對於防止中國到貨來台灣不管是以台灣為市場或者以台灣為傾銷或者金額台灣要洗出去有沒有什麼具體做法"},{"start":620.061,"end":647.356,"text":"是 各位委員報告其實中國的對等關稅稅率擴增的越高中國的貨品利用台灣的稀產地的機會就越高你們有什麼具體做法是 這個部分事實上從川普第一任開始我們海關就開始在執行違規轉運的強力的查緝但是因為這個形勢越來越嚴重那我們海關這個部分已經有提出一個事前預防失蹤審查"},{"start":648.717,"end":663.806,"text":"我建議經濟部跟財政部第一個是對於在海外台商要回國投資或者輔導去對我們有利的地方投資比如說我們要降低對美國增加降低壁壘增加就業機會要做輔導措施"},{"start":665.467,"end":691.561,"text":"第二個特別對中國商品經由小額郵寄包裹進到台灣的部分不管是以台灣目的或者像你剛才講的是轉口的要有一些具體可執行的方案否則談判辦去談一定會被ㄉㄧㄤ的那我後續就不再問了那我提醒央行請你注意這個時候你們是管兩個綠你不用出來了匯率跟利率請把這兩項控穩這時候利率不能動"},{"start":692.621,"end":709.141,"text":"這時候利率一動你看當年吃雞房貸我這樣講你就懂了所以這個時候雙綠控穩利率匯率請務必讓總裁了解這個時候要控穩我們不政府去manipulate但是請控穩來以上謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":104,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩外交部長林佳龍。","部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：我們時間有限，我儘速請教幾個問題。川普發布這一個授權90天的authorized post，前面有講，基礎是根據75個以上的國家提出相關談判，昨天我在問國安局的時候，其實就在詢問這個可能性，也就是說，在他執行的前夕會不會分類成兩大類：報復的跟願意談的？因為全部執行下去看起來美國自己受創也會很重，所以他把它暫停下來了，暫停下來之後，今天美國的股市暴漲3.5萬億美元，是16年來的最高紀錄，所以它產生一些效應。","我先請教，你看全文提到，因為這七十多個國家提出談判，所以現在授權行政部門去做一些暫停，這裡面有明確指出這75個國家通通列入暫停，你們有沒有去確認臺灣是不是這些被暫停的some countries、我們有沒有在那裡面？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["王委員定宇：有確認了嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，這第一個，所以已經確認臺灣是暫停90天的國家行列之一；第二個要請教的是，你們有沒有做一些了解，所有提出談判的國家都有被暫停嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我不是美方，我不知道75個名單中的每一個國家，但是就我們部分……"],["王委員定宇：就是美方……或我們經貿辦有沒有蒐集這樣的資料？我們臺灣確認有被暫停，那其他國家有沒有被暫停？為什麼要了解？出口貿易不是只有單向市場，還要看競爭對手，哪些國家也許臺商間接投資在那邊設廠，哪些國家可能是我們競逐同一個商品、行業的競爭者，他加了125%，我暫停下來，當然會產生競爭優劣的差距，至少未來兩季會有影響，所以我們目前沒有去蒐集是否所有提出談判要求的國家都列入90天暫緩的行列，這個不確定？"],["林部長佳龍：不確定，就是剛剛講的，基礎關稅的部分我們是10%……"],["王委員定宇：10%大家都有，連那個企鵝島都有，10%統統都有。"],["林部長佳龍：我們現在屬於比較有利的地位。"],["王委員定宇：其他部會有沒有人知道，是不是所有提出談判的75個國家或更多國家都有同步列入？如果沒有的話，麻煩蒐集一下。","第二個要請教一下，現在在時程上已經要進行談判了，我看他們有的是經過USTR提出、有的經過財政部提出、有的經過外交單位提出，臺灣提出的談判要求、賴清德總統的五項策略是跟他們哪個單位提出的？"],["林部長佳龍：我們是透過多元管道同時展開，目前也都有……"],["王委員定宇：你的多元管道是指統統都寄？總是……"],["林部長佳龍：不是，不管是官方或是非正式的，包括我們各個單位或者是企業界，還有各種方式，因為川普總統的決策圈……"],["王委員定宇：我為什麼問這個？這牽涉到未來90天，因為75個國家談判關稅不是小事情，但川普用一個簡單粗暴的方式可能會很快，但以往一個國家要談就好幾年，何況是90天，我們縱使現在危機暫時緩解90天，我還是要擔心80天後預告要怎麼樣的事情。所以我們到底是經過哪一個單位掛號進去要談判？未來也許跟他談的是經由這個單位，我們談判辦公室……"],["林部長佳龍：我們還是要回到正式的管道，我們的美處跟USTR也都有聯繫。"],["王委員定宇：我比較擔心USTR，坦白講，USTR很慢啦！"],["林部長佳龍：對，那是其中一個，但怎麼去促進才能夠來加速，這個是我們……"],["王委員定宇：所以你還是沒辦法告訴我，我們是經由哪個管道提出談判要求的，你說多元管道……"],["林部長佳龍：多元管道去接觸，也得到確認他們有收到訊息……"],["王委員定宇：白宮的幕僚說有收到？"],["林部長佳龍：我們官方的管道裡面，當然美處就是我們各部會在那邊的代表處都有人，即各組長，也跟美方的……"],["王委員定宇：你先……"],["林部長佳龍：因為機關上還是美國貿易代表，它還是一個最重要的主要對接窗口。"],["王委員定宇：顏慧欣副總談判代表請上來。我們未來進行溝通談判是經由哪個單位？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為現在的決策方式，看起來財政部部長、USTR跟商務部都有影響權，所以如同林佳龍部長所提的，我們是透過多元的管道，USTR當然一定是我們的管道之一。"],["王委員定宇：USTR？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對。"],["王委員定宇：因為我們過去不管談哪個項目，USTR其實都蠻慢的，這個是實話，你認為這90天內我們排的順序會在優先順序還是要排隊？美國不會是根據掛號啦！可能是根據美方需求的優先順序。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：確實，我想美國是按照自己本身的利益以及跟這些國家的貿易逆差大小來決定順位，但是因為我們在幾天之前已經掛上號，所以我們一定會持續地努力爭取，希望可以儘快地跟……"],["王委員定宇：有關外交部或者經貿談判辦，我們注意到4月8號跟今天，美國的財政部部長貝森特特別有提了兩件事情，我覺得好險。他提的第一個事情，他說中國升級用對等、對抗的方式就好像以為拿了一對二就在跟美國玩博弈，他認為這是極度愚蠢，因為兩邊的貿易是5比1，這個對等的報復對中國來講，它是一定輸定的牌。我就想到臺灣國內有一些人本來還講說臺灣政府應該一起跟著中國報復，我們是以出口為導向，美國現在是我們第一大出口市場，在1月份到2月份已經正式超越中港，如果採取對等報復的時候，今天公布我們臺灣就會在125%那一邊、在小額800美元以下90%的那一邊，你知道那樣臺灣的中小企業一定全部完蛋，90天內訂單都沒有了。所以國內有些附和中國這種呼籲的，坦白講，我不用政治去看這件事情，要嘛就外行，要不然根本就不把臺灣以中小企業出口為主的產業體系當一回事，倒是賴總統這五項策略，穩穩地把這個事情控穩下來。","我這邊提醒外交部跟談判辦，未來90天很重要，我們現在是鬆一口氣，我猜今天早上台股應該也是會不錯，大概去排隊等單的會很高興，雖然人民高興是好事，但是政府官員要去想未來90天內我們多快可以達成一定的協議，我希望未來召委這邊可以再排會議，特別在經過45天以後，我們的進度就明確了，對口是哪個單位、談的項目是什麼東西，真的是零關稅基準嗎？若是零關稅基準，對我們國內產業的衝擊可以允許補貼到什麼程度？這都是談判的重點，這件事不容易，所以請談判辦跟外交部要準備。","兩位請回，請經濟部跟財政部。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：關於川普的宣布，其實第二件重要的事情是，對於暫緩90天是一件事，他裡面特別點出來說只點中國，事實上對等報復的加拿大也有25%，但加拿大已經宣布執行了，所以它不在這一波；歐盟也宣布要即將採取報復，但川普認為它不叫對等報復，所以好像也放了。只有中國，對中國課了隨價外加，就是原來的稅外加125%的稅，低於800美金的郵寄商品，從免稅調高到90%，這個是懲罰性的關稅，因為本來只有30%，現在調高到90%。請教經濟部跟財政部，我們現在應該要注意什麼？當然中國經濟一定會受重創，那就由他們國家的人自己去擔心，我們擔心的是臺灣跟臺商，現在經濟部跟財政部應該注意什麼事情？"],["江次長文若：我跟委員報告，首先我們要注意兩點，第一個是臺商在大陸的經營方式，因為某些臺商雖然在川普1.0的時代已經撤出中國市場到其他國家去布局，但是還是有部分的廠商留在中國。"],["王委員定宇：好，這是一個，臺商因為放在中國那邊要面對125%，我們當然也要關心在海外的臺灣生意人，你們關注的焦點是什麼？協助他轉移？"],["江次長文若：第一個，我們還是會歡迎他回臺投資，因為投資臺灣三大方案會持續進行。"],["王委員定宇：這個部分我了解，我待會幫你summarize一下，我現在要問的是，因為這一題跟前一題有關係，而我們後續的談判，美國一定會看你有沒有成為第三方偷技術、洗產地、倒貨的地方，這就要經濟部跟財政部你們兩部去關心。對於中國那種單一品項，你知道它用中港澳郵寄到美國的貨品占其出口的90%，那個課90%其實除了對中國的影響很大以外，它一定想辦法倒貨。昨天英國國會就開了一個會，題目叫做當孩子可以買到便宜的聖誕節玩具的時候，這個題目很有創意，對啊！它倒貨就變便宜，可是父母會失去工作。所以我不知道經濟部跟財政部對於防止中國倒貨來臺灣，不管是以臺灣為市場或者以臺灣為傾銷或者經由臺灣要洗出去，有沒有什麼具體的作法？"],["謝次長鈴媛：跟委員報告，其實中國的對等關稅稅率課徵得越高，中國貨品利用臺灣洗產地的機會就越高。"],["王委員定宇：你們有什麼具體的作法？"],["謝次長鈴媛：關於這個部分，事實上從川普第一任開始，我們海關就開始在執行違規轉運的強力查緝，但是因應這個形勢越來越嚴重，海關針對這個部分已經有提出事前預防、事中審查，我們有提出非常精進的措施在執行。"],["王委員定宇：因為時間快到的關係，我建議經濟部跟財政部，第一個，對於在海外的臺商要回國投資或者輔導對去我們有利的地方投資，等於我們對美國降低壁壘、增加就業機會要做輔導措施。第二個，特別針對中國商品經由小額郵寄包裹進到臺灣的部分，不管是以臺灣為目的或者像你剛才講的是轉口的，要有一些具體可執行的方案，否則談判辦去談，一定會被噹的。我後續就不再問了，但我提醒央行，請你們注意，你們管兩個率，即匯率跟利率，請把這兩項控穩，這個時候利率不能動，若這時候利率一動，你看當年的次級房貸，我這樣講，你就懂了，所以這個時候雙率控穩，利率、匯率請務必讓總裁了解，這個時候要控穩，我們政府不去manipulate，但是請控穩，以上，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員的發言。","接下來由陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-7","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","馬文君","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林倩綺","林楚茵","李坤城","葉元之","林憶君"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、財政部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委\n員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、中央銀行副總裁報告「美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中\n共競合下，我外交經貿戰略佈局及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143601_00004"}}},{"id":"160038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712f8ae3b152729e655f179c558939ff989dffdecc4c49be5a7ebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:30:32 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技術是可行但是都還沒有開始做因為我後面再特別去調有關於你們中研院的一個計畫你們現在告訴我你們沒有這樣子的我們沒有這樣子完全沒有這個未來也不討論因為未來也不考慮"},{"start":499.451,"end":516.833,"text":"因為我們沒有這樣的人才所以沒有辦法這樣做對所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做一些的一個貢獻然後呢我們特別提到的但是呢有關於減碳目標我看你們有環境變遷的小組我剛剛看了一下很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做因為"},{"start":517.654,"end":529.866,"text":"我们过去来说我问过你你认为2030年有没有办法达到减碳你认为有点困难那赖总统还特别提到又提出一个2035的目标来做一个接轨院长以你目前来看是不是还是很困难"},{"start":531.506,"end":547.952,"text":"現在國際情勢瞬息萬變絕對萬變股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉萬變所以我想我們要預測未來這個減碳會多少是非常困難的但是我們要強調說減碳是長期目標"},{"start":551.053,"end":566.901,"text":"絕對是長期目標但是以你目前來去看你就有這樣的一個機會嘛從2030你說沒有可能2035你要看看在美國在巴西他們都提出了這樣子的一個方式看到巴西在減碳這是他們的目標美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%以你目前的這個預估因為你畢竟在這個小組當中你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的一個說法所以你認為2035來說的話你覺得機會大不大"},{"start":578.854,"end":594.925,"text":"我想我們不是談20 重點不是要短期我們一再強調重點是要長期我們幫他檢探因為最新的研究至少這個越來越多的研究資料顯示全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030不是2035也不是2050是2075到"},{"start":598.968,"end":602.611,"text":"你當初很明確的說2030對台灣來說是有點困難即使再延後五年很顯然這樣一個目標只是我們的目標要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合這點你應該是可以同意吧那要看怎麼做嘛那當然是以目前的做法來看的話我個人覺得"},{"start":623.149,"end":640.498,"text":"是有点困难我们光是在讨论这些部分草野之间其实没有太大的一个讨论空间任何的议题里面只要被卡上一个到底要不要恢复核能核能到底是如何我们都已经没有空间我觉得这是我们在在这个部分里面在讨论的时候其实我个人认为颇为"},{"start":642.259,"end":659.548,"text":"难过的一个部分因为我们没有太多正向可以合理思考的空间最后我只用30秒的时间我还是要提醒院长一下因为中研院也是有AI推动的办公室里面有成立的几个不同的一个面向我刚刚看到你的简报但是我还是要提醒很重要的一点就是有关于AI"},{"start":660.168,"end":663.91,"text":"他目前為止已經從國科會目前可能是速發部要來做這樣的一個處理但是呢很多我們認為在AN基本法裡面應該最需要的就是有關於法律授權還有規範基本的權的評估目前為止我們目前為在這部法裡面是空缺的我只是期許因為我們中研院有非常多的不管是學界法界業界裡面你們都可以跨領域來做這個部分所以呢中研院應該"},{"start":687.483,"end":688.664,"text":"好 谢谢提醒谢谢"},{"start":716.547,"end":717.557,"text":"好謝謝柯之恩"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":117,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時30分）謝謝召委，請院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：柯委員早。"],["柯委員志恩：院長早。明年6月你大概就任期期滿了嘛，所以應該是在現在……"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝？OK，好像鬆了一口氣要數饅頭了，所以今年6月的時候你們應該就要開始成立院長遴選委員會了嘛，應該沒錯吧？應該提前一年就會有個院長遴選委員會。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["柯委員志恩：我們還是希望它能夠來秉持著公正、公開的原則，不要像你上任之前有一堆的風風雨雨、有一些政治因素的介入，我們還是希望能夠一切很平順，因為相對於你，翁前院長跟你比起來的話，你的平和、沒有涉入政治等等來說，應該還給中研院一個比較公平、乾淨的空間，這是一個期許。大家不用擔心，我的問題到此結束。","我還是鎖定在院長，你在全國校長會議裡面提到的，我覺得你講的東西非常有道理，就是臺灣學術界跟社會脫鉤且制度偏重防弊，解決問題、貢獻社會才應該是最大的目標，所以不要去看論文的排名，這是你當初在全國校長會議所提到的嘛，我想很多人都深有同感，而且您說要走出舒適圈，院長，我真的要說，走出舒適圈這句話讓很多院長很感慨，因為中研院一定是所有人最羨慕的目標，各位，如果要做學術的話，中研院絕對是一個大家非常嚮往的地方。我現在要請問的就是，當你提到這句話的時候，你有反映在中研院內部的一些升等制度上面嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["柯委員志恩：我們來看一下，以中央研究院研究人員新聘、續聘、升等及特聘審議作業要點第六條來看，有關paper的產量，雖然你們認為要有研究價值，還有對社會問題的解決等等，但是無可厚非的，還是會以paper的產量來看，這點院長應該不否認吧？"],["廖院長俊智：對不起，這個好像不是這樣解釋的。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那請說。"],["廖院長俊智：我們希望在審查的時候不要單以paper的數量，甚至我期許審查的時候不要cite到底發了多少paper，而是要說這篇paper做了什麼貢獻、它的角色是什麼……"],["柯委員志恩：是，但是這就是我要問的嘛，這也是所有人都要問的，因為我剛剛說你講這句話深有同感，但是所有的學界要說，應該展現透過學術研究的成果來影響他人的可能性，你如何來界定這個所謂的影響力？而且你的考核都索久才有，目前為止看不到，我10年後才看得到這個部分，你如何來界定？因為這個就是中研院，所以我們特別調出來，看看你所說的東西有沒有辦法反映在你們自己院內的升等制度上面。"],["廖院長俊智：在考核上面，我們是強調兩個部分，一個是客觀的證據，就是您所提的怎麼樣求證；另外一方面，我們更要強調的是主觀的判斷，身為一個學者，特別是中研院的學者，應該要有主觀的判斷，我認為這個是好的或者我認為這個還沒有達標，所以我們要強調這個方向。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得我還是很希望能夠有更具體的方法，特別是對於社會貢獻，social contribution這個東西到底如何來界定，因為任何東西都要有一個量化的方法，這種主觀的判斷，那我們就要看看你說的跟你這些升等遴選小組裡面到底又是如何，這才是為什麼在大學裡面大家很難突破這一點，你講的都非常好，可是這十幾年來，大學沒有辦法，因為沒有辦法看出這個contribution，特別是在social這個部分的時候，我們只好很被迫要用量的方法來做一個處理，所以說……"],["廖院長俊智：這就要慢慢地推動，這沒辦法馬上……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是，所以我說10年，你已經指出來，但是這個真的要把它落實其實非常困難，所以我們期望在中研院的部分能夠以身作則。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["柯委員志恩：特別是我還是要強調，我已經不斷的在講，以我們政府目前投入經費的比率來看，技術發展部分是45%，應用研究是28%，真正到基礎研究的經費已經下降了，雖然這個資源看起來好像是有多，但是以這個比率來說，特別是基礎研究，相對於過去，其實政府投資的比率是低的……"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["柯委員志恩：所以在這個原則之下，大家會認為我應該就是好好的來這邊，而且是對社會有貢獻，我覺得政府的作法跟我們所希望達到的，這個中間還是有一個落差，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：是，我們希望政府要加強……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是這個樣子啊！可是這個數據就可以告訴你，特別是提到學術的交流，我剛剛也看到你有提到的就是，有一篇社會人文著作當中，你有特別提到臺灣跟中國之間的外交關係，但是我要請問一下院長，之前教育部，雖然你不歸教育部管，但是你知道，教育部也嚴格的限制了幾個學校未來是完全禁止交流的，但是這幾個被禁止的學校當中其實也有社會人文的領域，我想請問院長，我也調出來了，我們來看一下，其中有很多是不錯的學校，中研院跟中國大陸具黨政軍背景的學校交流的狀況其實也有不少，院長，你認為跟他們的交流裡面，你真的就會被統戰嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我們的交流裡面，大部分都是研究人員主動跟對方一起合作項目，這方面我們具體的交流方式跟經驗，我們沒有控管得很清楚，所以這方面，至於教育部所規定……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你會follow教育部的腳步嗎？這幾個學校裡面，包括哈爾濱工程大學、南京航太，如果你要做這個領域的話，他們其實彼此之間做學術上面的交流，過去到現在我們也做過很多學術交流，我不覺得過去雙方交流，我會被他們做什麼樣的影響。你認為中研院要follow教育部的腳步，跟過去也跟你們交流的這10個學校，也完全禁止嗎？任何的部分都禁止嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這部分我們中研院做得比較少，航空工業這方面……"],["柯委員志恩：不是，我是說你會follow教育部的腳步，禁止跟這10個學校來做交流嗎？這是教育部的禁令，你們中研院呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我們要follow政府的規定，只要政府有規定，我們只好就這樣做。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你贊同嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我們要看裡面的內容……"],["柯委員志恩：裡面的內容就是你問過嘛，所有你們去過學術交流的部分，純粹就是在這個學術的裡面來做這個層面嘛。"],["廖院長俊智：我們和這7個學校的交流，我不覺得很多。"],["柯委員志恩：所以呢？你們雖然不歸教育部管，你是歸總統府來管，所以你認為未來在學術交流的部分，你們就儘量往別的地方去，而不跟這10個學校來做更進一步的流動？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，這個怎麼做，是要看我們怎麼樣避免跟人家交流所產生的壞處，這是我們要想的。"],["柯委員志恩：不會有的。不是不會有，就是你們中研院每個人在做學術的部分，我相信都會恪守學術上面的原則。"],["廖院長俊智：對，我們希望能夠這樣子。"],["柯委員志恩：對我個人來說，我們都認為在做交流的部分，純粹就是在做不同的，就是很單純的一個學術，只是因為他們後面有黨政軍的色彩，然後就影響這個部分。我覺得就像你說的，還是看交流內涵的層面，而不是就一個具體的，一個什麼學校裡面就完全否定這樣子過去的一些研究上面的配合跟合作，這是我要強調的，好不好？","接下來我要特別提到有關於核能的部分，因為你現在是我們環境變遷小組當中的其中一員，然後你也不斷的認為核能當然是有優點，也有缺點，然後中研院其實也已經特別提到有關於核安的問題，你特別提到了，在第3+代跟第4代核分裂反應器的安全性上面，你們認為應該是蠻安全的，這個沒有錯吧？"],["廖院長俊智：是否安全，因為我們不是主管機關，我們沒有辦法到現場去查核，我們的意思是說……"],["柯委員志恩：就研究的層面。"],["廖院長俊智：我們是說技術上是可以把它變成很安全，是否我們現在現有的廠址是否安全……"],["柯委員志恩：技術上可以變安全，所以說你有給政府……"],["廖院長俊智：技術是可行，技術是可行……"],["柯委員志恩：對，但是都還沒開始做，因為我後面還再特別去調，有關於你們中研院的一個計畫，你們現在告訴我，你們沒有這樣子的……"],["廖院長俊智：我們沒有這樣的……"],["柯委員志恩：完全沒有這個部分，未來也不討論，未來也不考慮？"],["廖院長俊智：因為我們沒有這樣的人才，所以沒有辦法這樣做。"],["柯委員志恩：對，所以你們沒有辦法在這一塊多做出一些貢獻，但是有關於減碳的目標，我看你們有環境變遷的小組，我剛剛看了一下，很顯然並沒有往這一方面來做。因為過去我問過你，你認為2030年有沒有辦法達到減碳，你認為有點困難，賴總統又特別提出一個2035年要接軌國際的減碳目標，院長，以你目前來看，是不是還是很困難？"],["廖院長俊智：現在國際情勢瞬息萬變，特別是這幾天……"],["柯委員志恩：絕對萬變，股票從川普昨天不到幾個小時當中完全大翻轉，萬變。"],["廖院長俊智：是，所以我想我們要預測未來減碳會多少是非常困難的，但是我們要強調的是，減碳是一個長期目標，全世界……"],["柯委員志恩：絕對是長期目標，但是以你目前來看，你覺得有這樣的機會嗎？到2030年你說沒有可能，到2035年，你要看看美國、巴西，他們都提出了這樣的減碳目標，你看到了巴西在減碳，這是他們的目標，美國甚至認為要再減61%到66%，以你目前的預估，因為你畢竟在這個小組當中，你也某種程度呼應了童子賢董事長的說法，所以你認為到2035來說的話，你覺得機會大不大？"],["廖院長俊智：我想我們不是談2030或是2035，重點不是在短期，我們一再強調，重點是要長期有沒有辦法減碳。因為最新的研究，至少越來越多的研究資料顯示，全世界最糟的狀況不是在2030，不是在2035，也不是2050，是2075到2085、2095……"],["柯委員志恩：好了，院長你講得有點太遠，你講到2075，對不起……"],["廖院長俊智：因為那個時候是真正全人類的最大危機。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我只問你，我只問你，你當初很明確地說2030對臺灣來說是有點困難，即使再延後5年，很顯然這樣的一個目標只是我們的目標，要實際做到還有非常多條件的配合，這點你應該可以同意吧？"],["廖院長俊智：那要看怎麼做，當然假如你不計一切成本的話……"],["柯委員志恩：以目前的作法來看的話，我個人覺得是有點困難，我們光是在討論這些部分，朝野之間其實沒有太大的討論空間，任何的議題只要被卡上一個到底要不要恢復核能？核能到底是如何？我們都已經沒有討論的空間，我覺得這是我們在討論這個事情的時候，我個人認為頗為難過的部分，因為我們沒有太多可以正向合理思考的空間。","最後，我還要用30秒的時間提醒院長一下，因為中研院也有AI推動辦公室，你們也成立了幾個不同的面向，我剛剛看到你的簡報，但是我還是要提醒，很重要的一點就是有關於AI目前為止已經從國科會可能要移到由數發部來主政，但是很多我們認為在AI基本法裡面最需要的就是有關於法律的授權，還有規範基本權的評估，目前為止在這部法裡面是空缺的。我只是期許，因為我們中研院有非常多的，不管是學界、法界、業界，你們都可以跨領域來整合，所以中研院應該負起這樣的責任，可是你剛剛所提出的五個面向當中，很顯然我剛剛提到的這一些很基本的，有關於法律的依據、相關的配套等等，我們目前為止還是沒有看到。所以期許院長，未來在你們推動AI辦公室的過程當中，應該好好地來做一個跨界整合的領頭羊，這樣我們或許才有辦法讓這個基本大法裡面的基本原則可以受到大家的重視。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝提醒。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，院長請回。","接下來請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971205ce0a18a6f0e097f11452c3877738cadffdecc4c49be5a776d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:32:08 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如何在這90天裡面能夠移動他們能夠移動對他們來講或者他們在中國的台商他只是在服務的這個客人都在這個中國或者是跟中國友好的國家"},{"start":196.235,"end":216.602,"text":"那這個部分我們就不協助他不是說不協助他就長遠我們還是要協助他因為他畢竟是我們的國人那國人的產業是關心國人產業協助他們發展協助他們未來有競爭力我們優先是他們如果產品是出口到美國的我們協助他移轉生產基地"},{"start":217.819,"end":244.118,"text":"所以我想這個部分可能經濟部未來的工作不會是只有了解國內的產業對於本來我們昨天以前談的是川普總統科徵32%的關稅所以對於產業造成的影響現在我們要關心的是如果是現在這個狀態有可能更多我們的台商會需要政府更多的協助讓他就像剛剛部長您所說的轉移"},{"start":246.32,"end":266.645,"text":"他的這個產區所以這個部分可能要請經濟部這邊也要隨時密切的掌控昨天你們說滾動是檢討我看這個滾動還滾動的蠻快的一夜之間就變化很多來部長那您那個郭部長您請回我先要請教農業的部分這個陳部長昨天下午我們在前陣的這個漁港談到了養殖漁業對於這個農業的衝擊這關稅對養殖漁業的衝擊"},{"start":273.587,"end":293.019,"text":"那其實我們看到台美的這個農產的貿易概況這個逆超大概是達到28億元其實我們比較擔心就是說現在關稅到時大幅下降了之後其實農業部提出了很多的三大面向六大措施那這個東西"},{"start":295.28,"end":311.531,"text":"其實過去本來就一直在做或者是說做的力道沒有那麼大那現在面臨到這樣子一個關稅的調整是不是農業部應該要更往前更往前瞻的方向去走其實面對到的我想"},{"start":312.951,"end":326.067,"text":"農業的衝擊其實應該相對是最大的比如說我們談到毛豆美國目前對毛豆的科稅其實只有3.8%那川普總統這個宣布未來毛豆的科稅是10%"},{"start":327.856,"end":346.704,"text":"你這個造成的衝擊政府應該如何因應我一次把它問完然後再讓你一併回答然後像稻米如果我們把美國米的這個零關稅放進來的話那台灣米的競爭力就會完全不見了所以對於台灣稻米的衝擊相對來講是高的"},{"start":349.185,"end":377.766,"text":"那農業部有沒有什麼因應的措施我就這兩個問題請部長您回答好不好第一個部分是有關於整個產業支持的部分那剛才委員講的的確我們有一些措施是過去就有的去做個某個程度的延續但是這些措施其實都是在跟產業在對談裡面以後所得到的所以不管他的措施是舊的還是新的只要對產業好我們都會去執行"},{"start":378.747,"end":405.14,"text":"那有一個非常重要的就是在這次的不同的關稅的一個情況之下對中國的關稅提得高的時候其實對我們來講是一種機會特別是在美國的這些產地有很多像毛豆像吳國瑜其實都是中國為大宗的輸出國這個時候其實我們可以用更好的新的佈局去搶光這個美國市場所以後續我想我們會從這個方向去協助他們"},{"start":406.001,"end":420.858,"text":"更去加速美國的相關的一個佈局這是第一個部分第二個部分是接下來可能會談的關稅的部分那我要跟委員報告就是糧食的一個供應是確保我們糧食安全的一個非常重要的農業部的責任所以"},{"start":422.64,"end":437.078,"text":"以目前為止我們現在美國所關切的是我們的關稅政府購買的稻米大概有9萬4千多噸裡面有6萬4千多噸是來自於美國的他是希望我們底價能夠更透明"},{"start":437.799,"end":449.786,"text":"那這個部分我想我們在根據政府採購法裡面是可以先公告底價然後價低者得這個是可以調整的但是水那個倒數本身我想我們絕對就會堅守不會讓美國的關稅就是這個關稅降低因為"},{"start":455.689,"end":467.257,"text":"總統也講過了是從零開始談他不是說全部都是降到零針對農產品的部分院長跟總統也強調農民優先所以這個部分我們會確保所以我們的零關稅的部分對於農產農漁產的部分其實我們還是有採守一個底線他應該不會是從零開始所以他應該還是會有一個底線是這樣嗎"},{"start":477.864,"end":502.794,"text":"是這樣子的就是農業的部分我想主要的會影響到我們農民權益的會影響到我們產業發展的我們都會去堅持他有必須有適當的關稅去來做一個相關的硬的確保糧食安全這個部分其實部長這個農業跟工業其實很大的不同比如說你說工業螺絲如果今天沒有單他就停下來"},{"start":504.093,"end":509.484,"text":"但是他停下來他可以減少Maybe他可以減少一些損失可是你養魚 種菜 種米"},{"start":512.318,"end":516.561,"text":"你剩下的就是剩下 棄下的就是棄下不是說我今天沒棄他就停下來他就不長大所以對於農業的整體的影響我認為會相對的他的觀察期可能是要比較長一點所以我們在對於農業政策的調整上面我認為農業部其實也應該可以加快腳步去做這個台灣的整體的農業外銷的佈局"},{"start":541.517,"end":557.643,"text":"過去我們有好幾次的經驗因為中國突然喊卡不買石斑不買鳳梨不買什麼我們可以自己內銷去做調整但是你現在面臨到的是外銷到美國去或者是一個全球的農產佈局我想這個部分也考驗到農業部的危機應變處理跟我們在整體農業轉型上面我們其實應該要下更多的工夫"},{"start":567.907,"end":596.198,"text":"去做所以我其實還是支持你們剛剛提到的這幾大面向但是我認為那個錢還是遠遠不足啦假如可以的話我希望能夠把那個經費增加把整個做大讓台灣的農業發展能夠更健全這個是我比較期待農業部能夠去做到的部分好嗎好非常謝謝委員的提醒我想我們會針對整個整體的這些佈局會有一個更積極的一個去討論好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":112,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時32分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下郭部長還有陳部長？"],["主席：好，請郭部長跟陳部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：兩位部長早。請問一下兩位部長，昨天晚上有沒有睡覺？"],["陳部長駿季：有啊！"],["邱委員議瑩：你們昨天有沒有睡覺？"],["陳部長駿季：有啊！"],["邱委員議瑩：有喔！那你們是什麼時候掌握到川普總統政策轉變這件事情？"],["郭部長智輝：我們很快就掌握這件事情。"],["邱委員議瑩：因為他是在臺灣的凌晨發布的，所以你們的所謂很快是大概幾點的時候掌握的？"],["郭部長智輝：我是早上5點。"],["邱委員議瑩：早上5點。陳部長呢？"],["陳部長駿季：大概6點左右。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，所以你們兩位的報告……因為我相信你們昨天準備的報告應該跟今天早上的是不太一樣的，剛剛我看經濟部的同仁很辛苦，還在更改今天要來做業務報告的內容。我特別問這個事情是，川普總統在4月9號臨時又更改了他的關稅政策，現在的關稅政策全世界各國大概有七十幾國是調降到10%，但中國的稅率增加到125%，這個讓全世界的經濟又起了很大的變化，我看今天的臺股已經漲了，現在是漲了多少點？一千多點了，所以這整個變化是非常地大。","我要請教兩位的就是，剛剛經濟部也特別談到了這一些，現在的90天我們其實無法預測川普什麼時候會再改變，他現在跟大家說關稅降到10%，為期90天，不知道什麼時候會再改變，但是對中國的稅率增加到125%這件事情，我覺得他很有可能還會再改變，他的改變很有可能會再提高。對於這90天的暫緩期，我認為對經濟部或者是農業部來講，不是鬆一口氣，而是你們應該要更加滾動式檢討，比如我的推測是會不會再引發另外一波臺商回流潮？部長，您的看法是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這都在我們的推論之內，我想因為中國特別是……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以經濟部也做了這樣的推論？就是認為很可能會引發另外一波、新一波的臺商回流潮？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們在過去就曾針對非紅供應鏈提出一些基本假設，在這個關稅之前，我們其實都有讓這個命題經過一些推論，我們現在是要加速了解在中國的臺商如何在這90天內能夠移動。他們能夠移動，對他們來講……或者在中國的臺商，只是因為服務的客人都在中國或者是跟中國友好的國家，這個部分我們就不協助他，也不是說不協助他，就長遠而言，我們還是要協助他，因為他畢竟是我們的國人，關心國人產業，協助他們發展，協助他們未來有競爭力，我們的優先順序是，如果他們的產品是出口到美國的，我們協助他移轉生產基地。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我想這個部分，經濟部未來的工作不會是只有了解國內的產業。本來我們昨天以前談的是川普總統課徵32%關稅對於產業造成的影響，現在我們要關心的是如果現在這個狀態，有可能更多臺商會需要政府更多的協助，就像剛剛部長所說的，轉移他的產區，所以這個部分可能要請經濟部也要隨時密切的掌控。昨天你們說滾動式檢討，我看這個滾動還滾動得蠻快的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：一夜之間就變化很多，好，郭部長請回，我現在要請教農業的部分。陳部長，昨天下午我們在前鎮漁港談到養殖漁業對於漁業的衝擊，即關稅對養殖漁業的衝擊。我們看到臺美農產的貿易概況，逆差大概是達到28億元，其實我們比較擔心現在關稅降到10%、大幅下降之後，農業部提出了三大面向、六大措施，這個東西過去本來就一直在做，或者是做的力道沒有那麼大，現在面臨這樣子關稅的調整，是不是農業部應該要更往前，更往前瞻的方向去走？其實我想農業面對的衝擊，應該相對是最大的啦！比如說我們談到毛豆，美國目前對毛豆的課稅，其實只有3.8%，川普總統宣布後，未來毛豆的課稅是10%，造成的衝擊政府應該如何因應？我一次把它問完，然後再讓你一併回答啦！","然後像稻米，如果我們把美國米的零關稅放進來的話，那臺灣米的競爭力就會完全不見了，所以對於臺灣稻米的衝擊相對來講是高的，農業部有沒有什麼因應的措施？就這兩個問題請部長回答，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，第一個，是有關於整個產業支持的部分，剛才委員講的，的確我們有一些措施是過去就有的，去做某個程度的延續，但是這些措施其實都是在跟產業對談以後所得到的，所以不管措施是舊的還是新的，只要對產業好，我們都會去執行。有一個非常重要的，在這次不同關稅的情況之下，對中國的關稅提高的時候，其實對我們來講是一種機會，特別是產地在中國的，有很多像毛豆、像吳郭魚，其實中國都是以美國為大宗輸出國的時候，我們可以用更好的、新的布局去搶攻美國市場，所以後續我們會從這個方向去協助他們，更去加速美國相關的布局，這是第一個部分。第二個，接下來可能會談的關稅的部分，我要跟委員報告，糧食的供應非常重要，確保我們糧食安全也是農業部的責任。目前為止，美國所關切的是我們的關稅，政府購買的稻米大概有九萬四千多噸，裡面有六萬四千多噸是來自美國的，它是希望我們底價能夠更透明。這個部分我們根據政府採購法，可以先公告底價，然後價低者得，這個是可以調整的，但是稻作本身，我想我們絕對會堅守，不會讓美國將這個關稅降低。因為總統也講過了是從零開始談，他不是說全部都降到零，針對農產品的部分，院長跟總統也強調農漁民優先，所以這個部分會確保我們的糧食安全。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我們零關稅對於農漁產的部分，其實我們還是有踩守一個底線？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們絕對有。"],["邱委員議瑩：它應該不會是從零開始？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以它應該還是會有一個底線，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是這樣子的，農業的部分，主要會影響到農民權益的，會影響到產業發展的，我們都會去堅持它必須有適當的關稅，來做一個相關因應，確保糧食安全。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，其實農業跟工業有很大的不同。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：比如說，工業螺絲如果今天沒有單，它就停下來，它停下來maybe可以減少一些損失，可是你養魚、種菜、種米，你種下去就是種下去，養下去就是養下去，不是說我今天沒養就停下來、就不長大，所以對於農業整體的影響，我認為它相對的觀察期可能要比較久。"],["陳部長駿季：對，更長一點。"],["邱委員議瑩：比較長一點，所以我們對於農業政策的調整上面，我認為農業部其實也應該可以加快腳步去做臺灣整體農業外銷的布局啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們已經在做。"],["邱委員議瑩：過去我們有好幾次的經驗，因為中國突然喊卡不買石斑、不買鳳梨、不買什麼，我們可以自己內銷去調整，但是你現在面臨的是外銷到美國去，或者是全球的農產布局，這個部分也考驗農業部的危機應變處理，跟我們在整體農業轉型上面，我們其實應該要下更多的功夫。所以我其實還是支持你們剛剛提到的這幾大面向，但是我認為那個錢還是遠遠不足啦！假如可以的話，我希望能夠增加經費，整個做大，讓臺灣的農業發展能夠更健全，這個是我比較期待農業部能夠去做到的部分，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的提醒，我們針對整體的這些布局，會更積極的討論。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員。","我們現在因為人數足夠，我們先來確認議事錄，請問各位同仁，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）沒有的話，議事錄確定。","繼續詢答，下一位請林岱樺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-8","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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尚未確定我們現在先確認議事錄請問各位委員 就上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定 那請陳委員好 謝謝主席 那有請司法院副秘書長 謝謝麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":23.753,"end":41.94,"text":"副秘書長早安我想國人對於今天的主題都非常關心那我相信剛剛在前一個委員質詢當中你們說都有相關進度那我想我們後續就一起關心那我還是要回到我自己的主題我想跟您討論關於創意司法案裡面創意司法案裡面我們看到可以修法的部分還有"},{"start":42.86,"end":70.026,"text":"报导者在去年做了一系列的报导告诉我们在整个检调侦办过程当中就法律上的工具还有很多法律的见解可能让现场第一线的工作人员需要更多的支持我们来看一下报导者的案件里面第一个部分是谈到同一个案件里面针对数位时代的犯罪形态在法院见解的部分哪一个部分呢就是当时被害人位于台中"},{"start":70.766,"end":84.419,"text":"那於是檢察官就向台中地院申請羈押可是台中地院卻認為行為人持有影片的時候那個人他正在新北所以呢台中沒有管轄權他們認為必須要移轉或是主託給新北檢察官來申請羈押"},{"start":88.543,"end":103.573,"text":"這個部分當然我不知道當時是透過了什麼樣的溝通陳檢察官後來還是在台中辦了這個案子但是我想知道司法院在目前這一類型的案件有什麼後續的態度因為我相信這不會是第一個案子好這邊請簡單回應一下"},{"start":107.165,"end":131.03,"text":"那個 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可以嗎可以 謝謝好 謝謝喔那我們就期待你們後續的進度喔好 那這邊謝謝那我們要請警政署好 謝謝副秘書長 謝謝警政署有來對不對 謝謝刑事警察局副局長"},{"start":341.866,"end":370.075,"text":"那一樣同一篇報導我要先說在這篇報導裡面他有提到以上這一段文字我就簡單說一下檢察官說他在三年前開始辦這個案子的時候其實是沒有人想要辦的不想辦的原因並不是檢察官偷懶推卸責任而是這樣大規模的案子而且新型態的數位網路犯罪其實相關的案例在過往可能沒有辦法太多參考的案例而且他說當時加害者被害者都分散全台"},{"start":370.655,"end":386.505,"text":"一半就要長期抗爭檢察官要找專業熱情可以長時間投入的人來幫忙可是他所面對第一的困境就是來幫忙的這些警察同仁在這一類型的案件上並沒有績效"},{"start":387.486,"end":402.816,"text":"也就是沒有加分啦那要把這麼多人被害人集結起來必須要花費非常多的人力跟心力只有靠使命感硬撐下去是很辛苦的那當然最後檢察官是用組織犯罪條例去起訴給原警們相關的誘因這對警察來說非常的重要"},{"start":406.258,"end":425.209,"text":"那來自警政署的你我不知道你怎麼看這件事情我必須要說我非常佩服這個檢察官他最後決定採用組織犯罪防治條例讓相關協助辦案的警察人員獲得了相關的獎勵但是如果沒有這個檢察官想到我不知道這個案子還要拖多久"},{"start":425.669,"end":451.223,"text":"在相關第一線的辦案我們來看其實警政署你們在2017年曾經有執行過一個叫做青春專案我投影片這邊有相關的數字這個青春專案裡面呢你們當時調整的績效你們跟警察說只要相關案件可以以兒少性剝削防治條例第36條第36條到第40條移送就可以評比和分所以當時各縣市都大力的查緝喔"},{"start":451.823,"end":474.705,"text":"当时你看2017年查器数字来到将近3000可是到了2018年却说相关的案子检查体系怀疑滥行移送所以到了2018年评比的方法又改了说相关的案件必须要报请检察官指挥并且深压嫌犯警察才能核分"},{"start":475.926,"end":500.332,"text":"這都是在報導裡面相關的檢察官所指出的問題結果門檻提升之後呢請警政署這邊看一下到了2018年就落到了七八百件而已可是你會想說搞不好是犯罪案例變少了嗎並沒有在衛福部近年所通報的數字當中其實網路兒少性剝削的通報數量是越來越多"},{"start":501.132,"end":518.941,"text":"但是因為沒有好的獎勵的工具其實可能讓我們的員警沒有動力去做這件事情不知道身為長官的您怎麼看這件事情有沒有機會我們一起來突破這個困境跟委員報告我想創意吃訪我們九大隊"},{"start":519.901,"end":534.992,"text":"配合警察官去偵辦這個案件有有我知道大家都非常的配合非常的辛苦所以有關績效的部分不管是村安或是青春莊案那警政署的立場就是讓偵辦犯罪常態化"},{"start":535.973,"end":557.834,"text":"那在整個蔣城的部分 我想在這個部分我們回去來研究怎麼樣蔣城的方式來提高他們的誘因 就是偵辦刑案的誘因那因為青春莊案的部分在過去裡面在兒少這個部分確實像2017到2018那後來慢慢都讓它已經變成常態化"},{"start":558.414,"end":585.9,"text":"我沒有意見對於常態化當然是好事可是因為如果它沒有相關績效相對於現在的網路詐騙它是有績效加分的或者是販毒的部分應該也是有的可是網路而上性剝削這個部分它應該可能是沒有的我不確定但看起來是這樣它就是如同您所說的它是一個常態性所以可能對基層員警來說當他每天有這麼多的事情要處理的時候可能這件事情的優先度就不會這麼高"},{"start":587.1,"end":607.236,"text":"是 這回去我們會研究有關我們有沒有機會在一個月後收到您研議的相關報告或是開啟相關討論的報告好 我們一個月好 謝謝秦政署那我再跟您講另外一個事情除了我剛剛說的績效之外目前的報案機制在這個報導裡面他有談他說當時有一個少女的母親去報警"},{"start":608.797,"end":635.177,"text":"然後呢在報警的當下在那個前後加害人繼續傳送訊息給這個少女說你去報警啊反正你抓不到我那根據我們了解之所以這個加害人敢這麼囂張就是因為其實地方員警基層派出所的同仁他們也許不具備有這樣子網路而上性剝削的偵辦能力所以他們在第一時間收到這樣的案例我相信有大部分基層同仁是不知道該怎麼辦的那"},{"start":636.198,"end":655.912,"text":"一樣我們不可以去責怪基層的同仁我們必須要問我們在面對這麼多層出不窮的網路而上性剝削的案件數量逐年增高的情況下我們到底可以怎麼辦這邊我有一個建議我想要請你們思考看看內政部也請思考看看基層的派出所不一定有這個專業可是可不可以用縣市"},{"start":657.193,"end":680.3,"text":"或是區域為中心去建立一個兒少性剝削的專責窗口由派出所收到案子之後他就把案子轉介出去他只留下一個簡單的記錄確實記錄我收到了然後我轉出去了而這個專責的窗口當然就會有專業的工作人員在裡頭他可以協助家長協助被害人第一時間獲得該有的資源跟支持"},{"start":680.7,"end":694.946,"text":"你覺得這個部分我們有沒有機會來完成或是開啟相關的討論因為這樣子不但會讓家長覺得安心被害人覺得安心我們也讓基層的員警知道我們並不是只加工作在他們身上但是卻沒有給予他們支持"},{"start":695.868,"end":720.64,"text":"跟委員報告就我在地方服務的經驗事實上兒少先剝削這樣的案件大部分我們都會轉接到婦幼隊所以婦幼隊是一個很大的窗口所有的案件比如說就我在地方服務的經驗比較矚目我一定是會交給婦幼隊來處理所以我想現行應該是有婦幼隊這個窗口那因為大部分的案件所有的案件"},{"start":721.34,"end":740.069,"text":"很多所以為什麼很多都是受理案件大部分都派出所但是我想這個部分只要是比如像這種創意私房有專業的案件現在是科徵的時代那科徵的時代大概三個月整個科徵的手法就變了所以我們刑事局在科徵的部分也不斷在普及這科徵教育"},{"start":740.689,"end":764.661,"text":"我當然知道現在有婦幼隊因為我有我知道但是我必須要說就婦幼隊來說他們除了這種網路而上性博學的案例之外還有更多是婦幼隊的業務範圍所以我剛在想的是在這麼多數位時代新型態犯罪而且數量層越來越高的情況下我認為我們真的有必要去研議一個專責的窗口跟單位當然您不用在這裡立刻承諾我可是我認為我們確實有開啟這個討論的必要好嗎"},{"start":768.243,"end":796.628,"text":"那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤喔所以我最後的結論要求就是我想要請司法院警政署就我今天的質詢相關的事項還有相關的報導所提到的困境在一個月內召開會議提出相關的因應那就算事情非常複雜跟龐雜沒有辦法在一個月內解決這是正常的但我希望我們可以開啟相關討論給我們書面報告還有就是請法務部警政署針對相關偵辦兒少性剝削案件的同仁合理的續講"},{"start":797.708,"end":815.662,"text":"那我相信這個名單你們應該是有的那這個合理續講的名單跟相關的機制我認為我們回過頭補應該是可以的不要讓基層的同仁在這些案件上疲於奔命但卻沒有得到該有的獎賞跟鼓勵好那這個進度我們也會跟你們追有沒有機會在一個月內完成續講名單回頭去追"},{"start":817.969,"end":830.104,"text":"回頭追續獎名單 因為續獎有它的程序我們盡量 好不好好 那多久 大概會多是多久在你們合理的程序時間當中續獎的話 兩個月好不好好 謝謝 那我們會記錄下來謝謝 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時25分）謝謝主席，有請司法院副秘書長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["陳委員培瑜：副秘書長早安。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想國人對於今天的主題都非常關心，我相信剛剛在前一個委員的質詢當中，你們說都有相關進度，我想我們後續就一起關心。我還是要回到我自己的主題，我想跟您討論關於創意私房案，在創意私房案裡面我們看到可以修法的部分，還有報導者在去年做了一系列的報導，告訴我們在整個檢調偵辦過程當中，就法律上的工具還有很多法律的見解，可能讓現場第一線的工作人員需要更多的支持。","我們來看一下，報導者的案件裡面第一個部分談到，同一個案件裡面針對數位時代的犯罪型態，在法院見解的部分，哪一個部分呢？就是當時被害人位於臺中，於是檢察官就向臺中地院聲請羈押，可是臺中地院卻認為行為人持有影片的時候，那個人正在新北，所以臺中沒有管轄權，他們認為必須要移轉或是囑託給新北檢察官來聲請羈押，這個部分當然我不知道當時是透過了什麼樣的溝通，陳檢察官後來還是在臺中辦了這個案子，但是我想知道司法院在目前這一類型的案件有什麼後續的態度，因為我相信這不會是第一個案子，請簡單回應一下。"],["王副秘書長梅英：有關於管轄的規定，其實刑事訴訟法都有相關的規定，現在可能就是各法院之間對於譬如說什麼是結果地，因為如果說是犯罪行為地的話，或者是這個被告的住居所，這個都比較不會有爭議，就是說什麼叫做犯罪結果所發生的地方，可能大家所採的見解有不太一致的地方。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是如果在過往比較單純的案件，我覺得比較好去歸納，但是我覺得網路時代、數位時代的犯罪樣態確實已經很不一樣了，從這個陳祥薇檢察官所辦這個創意私房案的案例我們可以看見，如果大家還是採過去的見解，沒有討論的空間跟可能性，我認為會對第一線檢察官造成很大的阻礙。我想你剛剛的說法聽起來就是大家可以溝通、可以討論，雖然有各自的見解，但是我比較希望你們在這件事情上還是要有相關的態度，對於第一線工作人員的支持，好嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員的垂詢。我再補充一下，隨著現在資訊的犯罪，因為資訊的犯罪事實上是在電腦裡面，已經不是跑到一個行為地去殺人或是去傷害，所以這種新興的議題，因為學界的相關討論已經滿多了，我想這個部分我們也會進一步加強對於法官的培力，然後大家尋求共識。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了，謝謝，對於法官的培力、尋求共識，讓檢調人員他們有覺得獲得支持。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來要溝通的是關於立法工具，這個部分我還是想要跟司法院討論看看，也想要知道你們的見解。在這份報導當中再次提到刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一，因為被告有反覆實施犯行之虞而得羈押的要件，在這條當中並沒有把兒少性剝削防制條例犯罪列入範圍，但事實上，在製造兒少性影片的這些犯罪人、行為人，極有可能高度反覆犯案，導致於這個檢察官認為在相關的法律上應該要與時俱進，同時在偵辦的過程當中，他也認為被告有串證的可能為由聲請羈押，可是實務上的案例就是成功性不高，因為法官常常認為網路犯罪的人只有網路交流，現實生活中互不認識，所以不符合目前訂定的羈押要件。一樣是法官的見解，這邊可不可以請你們回應一下？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，目前第一百零一條之一的反覆實施之虞的羈押要件，確實沒有把性剝削歸納進去，這部分我想是一個刑事政策的決定，謝謝委員垂詢，這個部分我們也會帶回去研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我想不要只有研議，我自己其實已經有提出修法版本，而且也已經都連署完成，我們當時的訴求就是希望可以強化兒少保護網，而且我們有具體的作為，所以我自己也提了修法，我當然不確定這個會期有沒有機會討論到這麼具體的事情，可是我認為這件事情你們應該也可以提早做出準備，不管是跟專家學者研議，或者是實務上的見解、第一線工作人員意見的蒐集，我相信這件事情絕對可以加大保護兒少網這個部分，可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，那我們就期待你們後續的進度。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我要請警政署。謝謝副秘書長，謝謝。","警政署有來，對不對？刑事警察局副局長。"],["林副局長故廷：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：一樣，同一篇報導，在這篇報導裡面有提到以下這一段文字，我就簡單說一下，檢察官說他在三年前開始辦這個案子的時候，其實是沒有人想要辦的，不想辦的原因並不是檢察官偷懶推卸責任，而是這樣大規模的案子，而且新型態的數位網路犯罪，其實在過往可能沒辦法有太多參考的案例，且他說當時加害者、被害者都分散全臺，一辦就要長期抗爭，檢察官要找專業、熱情、可以長時間投入的人來幫忙，可是他所面對第一個困境就是來幫忙的這些警察同仁，在這一類型的案件上並沒有績效，也就是沒有加分，要把這麼多被害人集結起來，必須要花費非常多的人力跟心力，只有靠使命感硬撐下去是很辛苦的。當然最後檢察官是用組織犯罪防制條例去起訴，給員警們相關的誘因，這對警察來說非常的重要。來自警政署的你，我不知道你怎麼看這件事情，我必須要說，非常佩服這個檢察官，他最後決定採用組織犯罪防制條例讓相關協助辦案的警察人員獲得了相關的獎勵，但是如果沒有這個檢察官想到，我不知道這個案子還要拖多久。","在相關第一線的辦案，我們來看。其實，警政署在2017年曾經有執行過一個叫做青春專案，我的投影片有相關的數字，這個青春專案裡面，你們當時調整了績效，你們跟警察說，只要相關案件可以以兒少性剝削防制條例第三十六條到第四十條移送就可以評比核分，所以當時各縣市都大力查緝。你看2017年查緝數字來到將近三千，可是到了2018年，卻說相關的案子檢察體系懷疑濫行移送，所以到了2018年評比的方法又改了，相關的案件必須要報請檢察官指揮，並且聲押嫌犯，警察才能核分，這都是在報導裡面檢察官所指出的相關問題。結果門檻提升之後，請警政署這邊看一下，到了2018年就落到了七、八百件而已，可能你會想搞不好是犯罪案例變少了嗎？並沒有！在衛福部近年所通報的數字當中，其實網路兒少性剝削的通報數量是越來越多，但是因為沒有好的獎勵工具，就可能讓我們的員警沒有動力去做這件事情。不知道身為長官的您怎麼看這件事情？有沒有機會我們一起來突破這個困境？"],["林副局長故廷：跟委員報告，關於創意私房，我們九大隊配合檢察官去偵辦這個案件……"],["陳委員培瑜：有，我知道，大家都非常的配合，非常的辛苦。"],["林副局長故廷：所有有關績效的部分，不管是春安或是青春專案，警政署的立場就是讓偵辦犯罪常態化。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["林副局長故廷：在整個獎懲的部分，我想這個部分我們回去研究怎麼樣獎懲的方式來提高他們的誘因，就是偵辦刑案的誘因。因為青春專案過去在兒少這個部分，確實像2017到2018，後來慢慢都讓它已經變成常態化。"],["陳委員培瑜：我沒有意見，常態化當然是好事，可是如果沒有相關績效，相對於現在的網路詐騙是有績效加分的，或者是販毒的部分應該也是有的，可是網路兒少性剝削這個部分應該可能是沒有的，我不確定，但看起來是這樣，就如同您所說的，它是一個常態型，所以可能對基層員警來說，當他每天有這麼多事情要處理的時候，可能這件事情的優先度就不會這麼高。"],["林副局長故廷：是，回去我們會研究有關於……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們有沒有機會在一個月後收到您研議的相關報告，或是開啟相關討論的報告？"],["林副局長故廷：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝警政署。我再跟您講另外一個事情，除了我剛剛說的績效之外，目前的報案機制，在這個報導裡面有談到，他說當時有一個少女的母親去報警，然後在報警的前後，加害人繼續傳送訊息給這個少女說：你去報警啊，反正你抓不到我！根據我們了解，之所以這個加害人敢這麼囂張，就是因為地方員警、基層派出所的同仁，他們也許不具備有網路兒少性剝削的偵辦能力，所以他們在第一時間收到這樣的案例，我相信有大部分的基層同仁是不知道該怎麼辦的，一樣，我們不可以責怪基層的同仁，我們必須要問，在面對這麼多層出不窮的網路兒少性剝削的案件數量逐年增高的情況下，我們到底可以怎麼辦？這邊我有一個建議，我想要請你們思考看看，內政部也請思考看看，基層的派出所不一定有這個專業，可是可不可以用縣市或是區域為中心去建立一個兒少性剝削的專責窗口？由派出所收到案子之後就把案子轉介出去，就只留下一個簡單的紀錄，確實紀錄我收到了，然後我轉出去了，而這個專責的窗口當然就會有專業的工作人員，他可以協助家長、協助被害人在第一時間獲得該有的資源跟支持，你覺得這個部分，我們有沒有機會來完成，或是開啟相關的討論？因為這樣子不但會讓家長覺得安心、被害人覺得安心，也讓基層的員警知道，我們並不是只加工作在他們身上，但是卻沒有給予他們支持。"],["林副局長故廷：跟委員報告，就我在地方服務的經驗，事實上兒少性剝削這樣的案件，大部分我們都會轉介到婦幼隊，所以婦幼隊是一個很大的窗口，所有的案件，比如說就我在地方服務的經驗，比較矚目的我一定是會交給婦幼隊處理，所以我想現行應該是有婦幼隊這個窗口，因為大部分的案件，所有的案件很多，所以為什麼很多受理案件大部分都是派出所，但是我想這個部分，比如像是創意私房這種有專業的案件，現在是科偵的時代，在科偵的時代，大概三個月，整個科偵的手法就變了，所以我們刑事局在科偵的部分也不斷在普及科偵教育。"],["陳委員培瑜：我當然知道現在有婦幼隊，但是我必須要說，就婦幼隊來說，他們除了這種網路兒少性剝削的案例之外，還有更多是婦幼隊的業務範圍，所以我剛剛在想的是，在這麼多數位時代新型態犯罪，而且數量越來越高的情況下，我認為我們真的有必要去研議一個專責的窗口跟單位，當然您不用在這裡立刻承諾我，可是我認為我們確實有開啟這個討論的必要，好嗎？"],["林副局長故廷：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們辦公室也會持續追蹤，所以我最後的結論要求就是，我想要請司法院、警政署，就我今天質詢相關的事項，還有相關報導所提到的困境，在一個月內召開會議，提出相關的因應。就算事情非常複雜跟龐雜，沒有辦法在一個月內解決，這是正常的，但我希望我們可以開啟相關討論，給我們書面報告。還有就是請法務部、警政署針對相關偵辦兒少性剝削案件的同仁，合理的敘獎，我相信這個名單你們應該是有的，這個合理敘獎的名單跟相關的機制，我認為我們回過頭補應該是可以的，不要讓基層的同仁在這些案件上疲於奔命，但卻沒有得到該有的獎賞跟鼓勵。"],["林副局長故廷：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個進度我們也會跟你們追，有沒有機會在一個月內完成敘獎名單？回頭去追。"],["林副局長故廷：回頭追敘獎名單，因為敘獎有它的程序，我們儘量好不好？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，大概會是多久？在你們合理的程序時間當中。"],["林副局長故廷：敘獎的話，兩個月好不好？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。我們會記錄下來。"],["林副局長故廷：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請林倩綺委員發言。","林委員，不好意思，先等一下。因為待會部長10點要先離開。部長，剛剛黃國昌委員說兩個禮拜，因為也有其他委員傳訊息給我，希望下下禮拜再安排一次，就是就北檢的部分想要再就教法務部，這部分先跟部長說明一下，可能我們下下禮拜還會再排一個類似的相關議程會議，再麻煩部長到時候能夠過來，謝謝部長。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agend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在場的委員先進 有請廖院長好 有請廖院長林委員長"},{"start":22.233,"end":44.254,"text":"院長早安首先我想先請問一下我在報告中有看到我們的南部園區已經成立了所謂的關鍵議題研究中心那聚焦在所謂的這個量子科技海洋能太陽能的電池等領域那基隆因為我是基隆的區域立委那我們也會希望說像這方面的科技"},{"start":44.715,"end":59.197,"text":"這科研的資源能夠延展延展到基隆尤其我記得在前瞻計畫裡面曾經有提過這個基隆河谷廊帶的開發計畫那未來可能有一方面來講的話好像有一個生計園區有可能在這個整個工業園"},{"start":60.178,"end":83.819,"text":"公園區從這個內科南软這邊直接再延伸到基隆港來那這一點來講的話就請問中研院是否有計畫將南部院區的研究成果與基隆的海洋科技研究資源來做結合譬如說是否考慮在基隆設立所謂海洋能的研究基地來推動黑潮發電的技術在地應用請院長解釋"},{"start":88.203,"end":104.504,"text":"謝謝林委員的質詢事實上我們在海洋能的方面已經跟國立海洋大學商談過幾次我們將與國立海洋大學及其他相關的大學合作"},{"start":105.104,"end":132.492,"text":"共同在南部院區研發不同形式的海洋能不見得是黑潮因為黑潮不在基隆那邊所以其他形式的海洋能發電有些是比較適合基隆附近的那部分海洋大學已經做了相當多我們會跟他們持續合作至於未來要怎麼樣把南部院區的研究能量擴展到其他地方我們會持續考量"},{"start":132.972,"end":155.841,"text":"那當然基隆是一個可能的選項因為我這點剛剛院長也提到如果既然已經有個海洋大學因為本席正在海洋大學裡面任教雖然我是在航運管理的跟我們海洋發電的領域不相同但是我們還是很希望能夠看到說中研院有我們的科技研究的資源能夠往基隆這邊發展"},{"start":157.842,"end":170.323,"text":"那請問中研院是否有計畫去跟基隆的海洋大學建立跨區域的合作平台來共同推動整個海洋能跟量子科技的應用研究呢"},{"start":170.963,"end":194.231,"text":"這當然是可以討論可以思考的方向那我們先從這個目前已經有的跟海洋大學合作的一些面向從這邊開始那主要是海洋的能量的開發的研究那這方面那我們也在南部園區有一個海洋的研究室那這詳細我是請了觀念中心主任來回答一下"},{"start":195.391,"end":217.142,"text":"委員好 我是關鍵中心主任李超黃目前在南部縣區我們設立一個台灣海洋核心參數的設施基本上是開放給全國的海洋研究的團隊使用那個是跟國科會合作的所以不只是南部或者基隆只要是全國參與海洋研究的我們都可以提供這個設施的服務"},{"start":217.762,"end":245.007,"text":"那跟海洋大學的合作就是剛剛院長講的我們很快會跟他好幾個學院跟系所來簽訂合作的MOU那麼會挑選最適合的方向很快就會開始推動合作謝謝好 謝謝您的解釋那另外一方面我也想問因為我還是在注重在我們基隆這邊需要的一些有些滿足一些基隆上面產業上的需求那我們其實很知道說中研院在我們AI技術剛剛我看到專案報告上面"},{"start":245.407,"end":260.651,"text":"也有在講到我們在AI技術的研發跟應用上面是獲得有顯著的成果的但是如果說AI的應用不能把它落實到產業上面來幫助我們的傳統產業的轉型的話那很可惜這可能價值性就不足"},{"start":261.132,"end":279.856,"text":"那我們基隆的傳統產業像是漁業也好觀光業也好正被你所謂轉型的壓力尤其是說像是我知道說其他國家好像美國吧好像有利用這個AI的技術跟AI的大數據各方面的研究來去幫忙他們去做這個漁群的"},{"start":280.596,"end":306.158,"text":"雲群的偵測分析還有預測那這方面來講我覺得我可能就比較少看到說我們台灣這方面有實際上的應用那我覺得以一個科技大國以一個自取為科技大國來講這點是蠻可惜的那我就想請問中研院是否願意跟基隆市政府跟基隆的漁業界合作將AI技術應用在漁業資源的管理甚至觀光行銷的領域上面來幫助我們基隆的產業來升級呢"},{"start":307.541,"end":323.961,"text":"我想我們在AI應用上陳如委員講AI最可貴最重要就是要怎麼樣落地那除了在比較這個高端的科技產業之外更是這個傳統產業百工百業都需要運到AI那短時間我們會找比較"},{"start":324.802,"end":348.465,"text":"資源比較多所謂資源就是有許多的數據資源比較多才能做AI訓練所以我們從這方面探討看假如說漁業方面有很多數據那當然也是很好的一個方向但我們還不確定說這方面數據是否足夠來做現在AI運用不過委員提到這一點我們會去探討看說是不是可以用這個方向確實這是可以用的話是非常好的應用方向"},{"start":349.285,"end":364.78,"text":"因為為什麼會特地提到漁群的事情是我了解說好像是美國氣象署跟海洋研究的機構好像已經在很積極的去做這方面的事情而且有些成果那我會很直觀的認為"},{"start":367.342,"end":387.561,"text":"如果美國有就代表這個用AI來去做來去做預測跟觀測魚群的技術就已經相對來講比較成熟了那其實像這樣的技術如果我們台灣如果可以的話接觸也有或者是發展出來屬於我們台灣屬於我們自己的一個不同的技術或不同的方式也是對我們整體來講是會有很大的幫助"},{"start":389.423,"end":405.338,"text":"好那再來我想請教一下就是有關說我們中研院其實在我們國際學術界的影響一直都是很重要的甚至這個Academic Sinica這個是在全世界都很有名的但是我們在全球老實講現在這個昨天才經"},{"start":407.56,"end":420.038,"text":"昨天降關稅今天又鎖起來這件事情到至少現在全世界都人心惶惶但人心惶惶另外一方面來講美國現在也在大幅度的在減少高等教育的這個經費那這一點來講的話我們是不是當然他們"},{"start":422.882,"end":441.27,"text":"Someone's loss is our gain如果說在這方面來講台灣在科技在科研競爭當中我們現在人才還是在流失有資源不足的挑戰那請問我們中研院有沒有什麼具體的策略來吸引現在看起來美國這邊的人現在我知道Columbia好像被砍了不少錢Columbia跟Yale被砍了不少錢"},{"start":442.13,"end":457.399,"text":"那有沒有具體策略趁他們現在可能對高等教育沒有那麼專注的時候我們來吸引國際頂尖人才來台把台灣打造出來另外一個亞太地區的科研樞紐呢好 謝謝委員質詢我們最近確實推了一個計畫我們請國際處孟處長來介紹"},{"start":460.36,"end":477.177,"text":"林委員我們剛剛推出一個計畫就是要把台灣的優秀學生留在本國來念博士班尤其是今年他們已經申請了美國學校但是因為種種原因沒有辦法去那我們現在推出一個快速讓他們入學的博士班計畫那已經上線了"},{"start":477.697,"end":496.92,"text":"而且昨天已經有學生來詢問我可以問說是哪方面的領域嗎就是本院有13個博士班學生涵蓋數理跟生命科學總共有13個不同的領域所以說我們現在有沒有機會說去挖一些不是只有把本國人留下來把一些外國人"},{"start":498.321,"end":512.665,"text":"這個我們持續會進行因為要挖角已經事業有成的教授那需要長時間的接觸那不是短時間所以我們會持續進行這方面也陸續聽到"},{"start":516.186,"end":540.345,"text":"在美國的有些教授對美國的環境有所維持那在這個狀況之下我們會保持跟他合作保持跟他吸引他們是不是可以短期來台灣從短期變成中期從中期變成長期來台灣從這方向來做那比較快比較直接的就是把現在申請到美國學校但是"},{"start":541.245,"end":568.881,"text":"種種原因沒有辦法去或是覺得那邊環境不好或是被這個收回這個emission的這些學生能夠再趕快來中央醫院甚至台灣其他學校這也是很好我們留住這個學生的機會除了留住學生我們可以利用這個機會擴展到吸引國際學生所以我們剛才孟處講這個計畫不只是台灣學生國際學生也是一樣譬如說其他國際學生申請到美國學校"},{"start":569.281,"end":595.797,"text":"因為總統的原因他們認為美國不再適合了那我們說沒關係那台灣可能很適合你那請你來申請我們這學校所以我們也特別放寬了一些時間來吸引這些人我會認為就是說人力資本這邊來講人才資本Human Capital這件事情是一個國力最直接的最直接的保障如果說有兩指的Human Capital在每個領域尤其在研發領域的話"},{"start":597.518,"end":613.688,"text":"基本上這是個國力增長的象徵尤其是說美國之強就是因為說他當初海納百川現在川普可能反其道而行但是我剛才講過their loss is our gain他們的失去搞不好就是我們加分的時候"},{"start":614.449,"end":626.007,"text":"所以這個時候如果中研院能夠做到一個起頭的作用把一些最頂尖的人才往我們台灣往我們中華民國身上靠身上收集的話我覺得這會對我們未來會有直接的幫助是是是好謝謝院長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":85,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時20分）主席、在場的委員先進，有請廖院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：林委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：院長早安。首先我想先請問一下，我在報告中有看到中研院在南部院區已經成立了所謂的關鍵議題研究中心，聚焦在量子科技、海洋能、太陽能的電池等領域，因為我是基隆的區域立委，我們也會希望像這方面的科研資源能夠延展到基隆。尤其我記得在前瞻計畫裡面曾經有提過基隆河谷廊帶的開發計畫，未來可能在這一方面好像有一個生技園區，有可能整個工業園區從內科、南軟這邊直接再延伸到基隆港來。以這一點來講的話，請問中研院是否有計畫將南部院區的研究成果與基隆的海洋科技研究資源來做結合，譬如說，是否考慮在基隆設立所謂海洋能的研究基地，來推動黑潮發電的技術在地應用？請院長解釋。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝林委員的質詢，事實上，我們在海洋能方面已經跟國立海洋大學商談過幾次，我們將與國立海洋大學及其他相關的大學合作，共同在南部院區研發不同形式的海洋能，不見得是黑潮，因為黑潮不在基隆那邊，所以是其他形式的海洋能發電，有些是比較適合基隆附近，對那個部分海洋大學已經做了相當多，我們會跟他們持續合作。至於未來要怎麼樣把南部院區的研究能量擴展到其他地方，我們會持續考量，當然基隆是一個可能的選項。"],["林委員沛祥：好，剛剛院長也提到，既然已經有跟海洋大學合作，因為本席正在海洋大學裡面任教，雖然我是在航運管理，跟海洋發電的領域不甚相同，但是我們還是很希望能夠看到中研院科技研究的資源能夠往基隆這邊發展。請問中研院是否有計畫去跟基隆的海洋大學建立所謂的跨區域合作平臺，來共同推動整個海洋能跟量子科技的應用研究呢？"],["廖院長俊智：這當然是可行的，是可以討論、可以思考的方向，那我們先從目前已經有跟海洋大學合作的一些面向開始，主要是海洋能量開發的研究，在這方面我們在南部院區也有一個海洋的研究室，我請關鍵中心的主任來說明詳細情形。"],["李副執行秘書兼主任超煌：委員好，我是關鍵中心主任李超煌，目前我們在南部院區設立了一個臺灣海洋核心參數的設施，基本上是開放給全國的海洋研究團隊使用，那個是跟國科會合作的，所以不只是南部或者是基隆，只要是全國參與海洋研究的，我們都可以提供這個設施的服務。關於跟海洋大學的合作，就是像剛剛院長講的，我們很快會跟好幾個學院、系所來簽訂合作的MOU，會挑選最適合的方向，很快就會開始推動合作，謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝你的解釋。另外一方面，我還是注重我們基隆這邊所需要的，就是滿足基隆產業上的一些需求。其實我們知道中研院有在推動AI技術，剛剛我看到專案報告也有講到中研院在AI技術的研發跟應用上面有獲得顯著的成果，但是如果不能把AI的應用落實到產業上面來幫助我們傳統產業轉型的話，就會很可惜，可能價值性就不足。我們基隆的傳統產業像漁業也好、觀光業也好，正面臨所謂轉型的壓力，我知道美國等其他國家好像有利用AI的技術跟AI的大數據等各方面的研究來幫忙做魚群的偵測分析還有預測，以這方面來講，我可能就比較少看到我們臺灣在這方面有實際上的應用，那我覺得我們自詡為科技大國，這點是滿可惜的，我想請問中研院，是否願意跟基隆市政府、基隆的漁業界合作，將AI技術應用在漁業資源的管理，甚至觀光行銷的領域，來幫助我們基隆的產業升級呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我想我們在AI應用上，誠如委員所講的，AI最可貴、最重要就是要怎麼樣落地，除了在比較高端的科技產業之外，更是傳統產業、百工百業都需要應用到AI，短時間我們會找資源比較多的，所謂資源就是有許多的數據，資源比較多的才能做AI訓練，所以我們從這方面來探討，假如漁業方面有很多數據，當然也是很好的一個方向，但我們還不確定這方面的數據是否足夠來做AI應用，不過委員提到這一點我們會去探討，看看是不是可以用朝這個方向，確實，如果可以用的話，這是非常好的應用方向。"],["林委員沛祥：對，為什麼特地提到漁群的事情，是因為我瞭解到好像美國的氣象跟海洋研究機構是很積極地在做這方面的事情，而且有些成果，我會很直觀地認為，如果美國有，就代表用AI去預測跟觀測漁群的技術已經相對比較成熟了，其實像這樣的技術，我們臺灣如果可以的話，接觸沿用或是發展出屬於我們臺灣自己的一個不同的技術或不同的方式，對我們整體來講也是會有很大的幫助。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["林委員沛祥：再來我想請教一下，因為中研院在國際學術界的影響一直都是很重要的，甚至Academia Sinica是在全世界都很有名的。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：但是在全球，老實講，昨天降關稅今天又鎖起來，這件事情導致現全世界都人心惶惶，但另外一方面來講，美國現在也在大幅度地減少高等教育的經費，就這一點來講，是不是someone's loss is our gain？以這方面來講，臺灣在科研競爭當中，我們現在的人才還是在流失，有資源不足的挑戰，請問中研院有沒有什麼具體的策略來吸引現在來美國這方面的人才？就我所知道的，Columbia好像被砍了不少錢，Columbia跟……"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["林委員沛祥：我們有沒有具體的策略，趁他們現在可能對高等教育沒有那麼專注的時候，我們來吸引國際頂尖人才來臺，把臺灣打造成另外一個亞太地區的科研樞紐呢？"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝委員質詢，我們最近確實推了一個計畫，我請國際處孟處長來介紹。"],["孟處長子青：林委員，我們剛剛推出一個計畫就是要把臺灣的優秀學生留在本國念博士班，尤其是今年他們已經申請了美國學校，但是因為種種原因沒有辦法去，我們現在推出一個快速讓他們入學的博士班計畫，已經上線了，而且昨天也已經有學生來詢問。謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：已經有學生來詢問了，我可以問是哪方面的領域嗎？"],["孟處長子青：就是本院有13個博士班學程，涵蓋數理跟生命科學，總共有13個不同的領域。"],["林委員沛祥：OK，那有沒有機會去挖一些外國人才，不是只有把本國人留下來，還要把一些外國的學者……"],["廖院長俊智：這個我們持續會進行，因為假如要挖角已經事業有成的教授，需要長時間的接觸，不是短時間，所以我們會持續進行那個方面，陸續聽到在美國的有些教授對美國的環境有所微詞，在這個狀況之下，我們會保持跟他合作，吸引他們是不是可以短期來臺灣，然後從短期變成中期、從中期變成長期，從這個方向來做，比較快、比較直接的就是把現在申請到美國學校但因為種種原因沒有辦法去、或是覺得那邊環境不好、或是被收回admission的這些學生，能夠趕快來中研院，甚至是去臺灣其他學校，這也是很好的、留住這個學生的機會。除了留住學生，我們可以利用這個機會擴展到吸引國際學生，所以剛才孟處長講的這個計畫不只是臺灣學生，國際學生也是一樣，譬如其他國際學生申請到美國學校，由於種種原因，他們認為美國不再適合了，我們說沒關係，臺灣可能很適合你，請來申請我們的學校，所以我們也特別放寬了一些時間來吸引這些人。"],["林委員沛祥：我會認為以人力資本來講，人才資本、human capital這件事情是一個國力最直接的保障，如果說有良質的human capital在每個領域，尤其在研發領域的話，基本上這是國力增長的象徵。"],["廖院長俊智：同意。"],["林委員沛祥：尤其是美國之強就是因為它當初海納百川，現在川普可能反其道而行，但是我剛剛也講過，their loss is our gain，他們的失去搞不好就是我們加分的時候，所以這個時候如果中研院能夠做到一個起頭的作用，把一些最頂尖的人才往我們臺灣、往我們中華民國身上靠、身上來收集的話，我覺得這對我們未來會有直接的幫助。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝院長。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員，院長請回。","接下來請柯志恩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-6","speakers":["林宜瑾","林沛祥","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","張雅琳","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","翁曉玲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00001"}}},{"id":"160033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc971286715591e82c19e6803d2cc4ed617307dffdecc4c49be5a794f7e1115bc77d055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:09:42 - 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第二個部分"},{"start":230.086,"end":256.636,"text":"在你今天司法院的報告也不了解的所謂劣勢裁定嘛因為今天你報告我覺得法律人有一說一對於這樣的精神我基本上是認同的啦司法院在書面報告上跟全國的法律人講說我們的司法院也搞不清楚什麼叫劣勢裁定那顯然啦這個法官知道出了包了以後想要亡羊補牢"},{"start":258.277,"end":276.63,"text":"去發明了這個詞出來但是我對你們講的一個詞啊是有意見的 什麼意見啊 來看一下裁定雖然沒有判決書格式那麼嚴謹的要求那但是什麼 但是刑事訴訟法50條到51條針對於裁判書所應記載的內容基本上是有規定的嘛"},{"start":283.317,"end":309.671,"text":"所以即使是裁定刑事訴訟法51條針對裁判書所應記載的內容也有要求嗎是的我這樣說應該沒有錯嗎是的那因為你們公告的裁定跟原始的裁定是不是一樣我們無從得知因為依照刑事訴訟法的規定裡面有一些針對有關於受裁定人要被特定的那些資料是應記載的事項沒有錯嗎"},{"start":313.789,"end":330.31,"text":"您聽不懂嗎?我教說應該沒有錯嗎?但是你們現在所公告的這個劣勢裁定對於實際上面那個裁定的原本跟正本是不是相符的這件事情司法院確認過了嗎?"},{"start":335.007,"end":352.82,"text":"因為那個書記官嘛 上面是寫說上面正本的製作跟原本相符嘛那按照目前司法院或高院所採取的立場是案件審理單可能也是書面裁定的一種嘛我特別加可能兩個字啦還是你們現在就確定是裁定的一種"},{"start":354.949,"end":374.551,"text":"就我們調查就是這個何怡婷呢他們是在那個理由單裡面去批了這個裁定的意旨然後何怡婷之後在3月28號的時候呢是把這個審理單上那個裁定意旨的那個內容也就是現在大家看到我現在就問得很清楚囉"},{"start":375.692,"end":400.773,"text":"如果這個審理單我們按照高院的那個法官他的主張他認為是所謂的裁定的話他現在顯然就這樣主張嘛他的主張只是這個裁定有沒有對外發生法律效果嘛所以是不是要補送答的問題嘛那我現在的問題是那個案件審理單上面的資訊跟他現在公告的這個裁定的資訊內容是不是一樣這件事情確認過了嗎"},{"start":402.589,"end":417.098,"text":"跟委員報告就是說就我們因為這個自律的那個內容也都已經揭露嘛那這我們可以報告就是說他們這個審理單上呢就是最早原始的那個記載就是如現在所那個揭示的那但是那個自律"},{"start":418.618,"end":446.332,"text":"之所以他們成立就是決議說這要送法平有為師其中的第二個理由就是說他們後來在上面還有再增加了一些那個增刪了一些東西這個現在就是我的核心問題喔是當初的案件審理單我姑且把它成為A版本嘛是但是現在公告的裁定是B版本嘛我應該沒有說錯吧現在公告的是第一個版本是A版本它後來還有個第二跟第三"},{"start":446.992,"end":476.147,"text":"他後面還有第二跟第三個版本這個在這個新聞稿上已經有揭露了法官可以這樣做嗎因為依刑事訴訟法40條就是所公務員所製作的文書有增刪的時候呢就是一定要去那個註記不是啊依照他們現在的看法啦那個裁定啊成立的時間點到底是什麼那個裁定成立的時間點是A版本B版本還是C版本"},{"start":477.324,"end":505.359,"text":"因為我現在如果按照您剛剛這樣的講法現在有三個版本的裁定喔現在公告的是第一個版本嘛是那第二個版本跟第三個版本從司法院的觀點算什麼隨便亂寫的東西這個部分要由何一庭來回答這司法院沒有辦法幫忙做那個沒有啦 做解釋我尊重審判獨立啦是但是你如果尊重審判獨立尊重到ABC三個版本要怎麼回答都要由何一庭來回答"},{"start":506.963,"end":528.583,"text":"在司法的公眾監督上面沒有辦法處理這件事情那等於是法官針對自己的裁定可以做很多版本司法院的態度很清楚因為他們這樣子做就已經是違背了這些程式規定也因此有這個圍屍呢那個高院的資歷委員會就是送法屏的圍屍室又有包括這一塊"},{"start":530.923,"end":543.422,"text":"這法官百分之百應該要送懲戒這個我跟你沒有意見不一樣的地方現在我在請教的是在法律上面現在這個裁定到底是A版本 B版本還是C版本"},{"start":545.455,"end":573.94,"text":"因為他會牽涉到一個更大的問題是我昨天啊請教一下法務部部長的上面的記載後來被抽換那我相信我們都是法律人不要爭執這件事情啦這種事情用抽換的方式是不對的嘛我的理解沒有錯吧電話紀錄嗎還是手提單電話紀錄是對這也是違反刑事說法40條來那個部長我昨天請教完了你以後你有沒有回去瞭解那個檢察官到底有沒有表達這個看法"},{"start":575.825,"end":595.664,"text":"這部分是如同那個整個電話紀錄裡面我們還在調查中你們還在調查嗎因為這個還在那個調卷嘛希望動作可以快一點希望可以動作快一點因為這個司法大醜聞整個社會都非常非常的關心那最後我先請教一下司法院副秘書長說"},{"start":597.796,"end":607.126,"text":"因為那一位審判長他已經不事任兼任庭長了嘛你們說你們要開人審會把他庭長拔掉嘛庭長拔掉沒有"},{"start":607.985,"end":630.11,"text":"報告委員因為這位庭長他後來在4月1號的時候他就寫了簽呈自行免監那這個也已經核定下來了所以連人審會都不用開了嗎是 預計4月14號派令會生效接下來整個懲處的程序可能對於法官評鑑委員會"},{"start":631.926,"end":660.677,"text":"的公信力 社會公信力 可能會再遭受一次社會全面的檢視 這個司法院應該心裡有數嗎是的 也跟委員報告在昨天的時候呢 就是這一個申請書也送到法評會了OK 好 來 接下來請部長那個部長我知道你等一下要走齁 我們講快一點之前啊 我揭露有檢察官跑去跟無奶人吃香喝辣"},{"start":661.687,"end":690.136,"text":"那後來呢地檢署就地檢署的部分有把這幾個檢察官送檢察官評鑑嘛那之前呢你們回給我的函說高檢署有要做行政調查報告這個行政調查報告完成了嗎各位委員報告齁這個高檢這個有發交給北檢來做行政調查那北檢的行政調查是認為這個有違反公務員所以在這邊齁來來來你看你公務員最下一行"},{"start":690.876,"end":708.44,"text":"高檢的行政調查持續進行中尚未結案所以你現在回給我的高檢的行政調查到底還有沒有在進行還是北檢移送評鑑以後就算結案了因為這個已經移送那個個案評鑑那這部分高檢贊同這種的看法所以這邊已經結案了蛤"},{"start":710.368,"end":725.616,"text":"這個部分就算結案了這個一定會送個案評鑑因為所有參與參會的這些五位檢察官都送個案評鑑現在喔我公開質疑過一個問題我到目前為止沒有聽到法務部的回應所以我想今天公開請教你的回應"},{"start":726.792,"end":753.65,"text":"把這五個檢察官送評鑑我非常贊成我非常贊成敗壞檢察官的官真敗壞檢察官的官真傷害司法的公信力但我的問題啊 是什麼這個標準有適用所有的檢調嗎為什麼我這樣問當初北檢的檢察長在當調查局局長的時候跑去台碩的招待所"},{"start":755.114,"end":778.753,"text":"跑去台塑的招待所那個時候正在接受調查的是誰是鄭文燦還有送他錢的楊兆琳還有送他錢的楊兆琳這個是等於什麼調查局帶了一堆官員去台塑的招待所招待一個貪污犯送錢的人他們的招待"},{"start":781.463,"end":790.754,"text":"為什麼調查局的局長現在北檢的檢察長可以幹這種事情然後都不需要接受任何的行政調查或懲處是有雙標嗎"},{"start":793.171,"end":817.054,"text":"是有雙標嗎這個沒有雙標如果沒有雙標的話 那請問針對這位前調查局局長現在台北地檢署的檢察長法務部做了什麼處理因為我看不到我公開發文質疑了非常久啊是跟全國的檢察官說即使那個貪汙犯那個送錢的正在被調查"},{"start":818.959,"end":841.429,"text":"只要財大氣粗一樣可以去他的招待所吃喝玩樂是這樣嗎請部長這部分如果有具體事證那我們是絕對聽聽聽這上面寫的還不夠清楚這上面寫的還不夠清楚王俊麗也沒有否認他有去啊他從頭到尾沒有否認他有去啊"},{"start":847.264,"end":867.66,"text":"他說他去是公務啊我看不懂這是什麼公務啊一個正在被你調查貪污犯送錢給鄭文燦的在招待所裡面招待你結果他跟社會說是公務然後整個法務部從上到下靜悄悄都不用調查不用處理來請部長"},{"start":871.616,"end":899.73,"text":"我們再重申就是我們會秉公處理絕對不會互端好 你說要秉公處理我非常讚賞可不可以講具體一點如何秉公處理那這個還是經過要了解這個還要了解 你要了解多久給你一個禮拜了解夠不夠這件事情發生很久了啦我也公開質疑很久了啦只不過我人為言輕狗吠火車啊我公開質疑了以後到今天從法務部到高檢署到台北地檢署沒有一個人回應啊"},{"start":901.291,"end":913.96,"text":"大家都在裝沒事啦反正用混的混過去就好啦然後您今天說要秉公處理不要講空話如何秉公處理主席站起來了給我一個答案就好你需要多久你說你還要調查嗎沒關係我給你時間調查一個禮拜夠不夠"},{"start":919.946,"end":932.625,"text":"我們半個月兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好兩個禮拜我們來瞭解看看兩個禮拜這件事情該什麼處理請法務部正式的回函給所有世華法治委員會的委員好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時9分）謝謝主席，麻煩請司法院王副秘書長、法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘及部長。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。上一次針對有關鍾文智棄保潛逃的案子，副秘書長應該還記得很清楚，那天我請教您為什麼高院的裁定對於保證金取代科技監控設備完全找不到？結果搞了半天，連裁定都沒有做，完全沒有做，等到事情大條了，才開始匆匆補做。先分兩個層次的問題，第一個層次的問題，剛副秘講的沒有錯，裁定要不然要宣示，要不然要送達，才會對外發生效力。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在下一個問題來了，因為這裁定一直到今年我們質詢完了以後，發現當初根本沒有做，才在今年3月28日補做。下面的問題是，去年10月16日的時候，是不是叫鍾文智或者是通知他的辯護人多拿2,000萬來辦交保？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：請他繳2,000萬的法律基礎是什麼？去年10月16日的時候，在我們的法律世界當中沒有任何一個裁判可以命他多繳2,000萬，我說的沒有錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，你垂詢的是，也正是因為合議庭的這個違失，就是沒有送達，然後也沒有在當庭言詞做宣示，所以他們所做的就是違反程序的規定，也因此司法院的態度很清楚，我們後來查悉這些事情之後……"],["黃委員國昌：司法院的態度我等一下會問，我們是法律人，因為我如果在問A問題，然後你在回答B答案，這樣大家會聽不懂，這樣也會對不起來。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我的問題很具體，去年10月16日叫他拿2,000萬來的法律基礎是什麼？我從法律的觀點看是沒有法律基礎，我這樣的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以這樣說，因為那個裁定根本沒有對外生效。"],["黃委員國昌：現在問題來了，現在這2,000萬如果人家要你還他，那你怎麼辦？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為這個部分之後的這一些程序處理，還是涉及到審判核心，這個部分我們司法行政也不便就合議庭職權的行使來做一個回答。"],["黃委員國昌：現在合議庭出了這個大包，他們要負責，這個我同意，我其實也沒有在怪你，因為那個裁定不是你做的，人也不是你放的，要你在這邊幫他挨罵、幫他背鍋，對你也不公平，但是我覺得在法律上面，我們在討論法律制度的問題就要把法律制度的問題講清楚。所以我現在擔心的第一個事情是去年繳的那2,000萬沒有法律授權的基礎，你憑什麼給人家留著？今天如果鍾文智囂張一點，要他的辯護人叫你們2,000萬還來，當初你要他繳的那2,000萬根本沒有法律的基礎，這個時候怎麼辦？這個時候我國的司法制度就尷尬了，真的就尷尬了！","第二個部分，今天司法院的報告也不瞭解所謂略式裁定，因為今天你的報告，我覺得法律人有一說一，對於這樣的精神，我基本上是認同的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：感謝。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院在書面報告上跟全國的法律人講，我們司法院也搞不清楚什麼叫略式裁定，顯然是這個法官知道出了包了以後想要亡羊補牢，去發明了這個詞出來，但是我對於你們講的一個詞是有意見的，什麼意見？來！看一下，裁定雖然沒有判決書格式那麼嚴謹的要求，但是刑事訴訟法第五十條及第五十一條，針對裁判書所應記載的內容基本上是有規定的，所以即使是裁定，刑事訴訟法第五十一條針對裁判書所應記載的內容也有要求，我這樣說應該沒有錯嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為你們公告的裁定和原始的裁定是不是一樣，我們無從得知，因為依照刑事訴訟法的規定，有一些針對有關於受裁定人要被特定的那些資料是應記載的事項，沒有錯嘛？你聽不懂嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，我聽得懂。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說應該沒有錯嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：但是你們現在所公告的略式裁定，對於實際上面那個裁定的原本和正本是不是相符的這件事情，司法院確認過了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：因為那個書記官是寫上面正本的制作和原本相符，按照目前司法院或高院所採取的立場是案件審理單可能也是書面裁定的一種，我特別加「可能」兩個字，還是你們現在就確定是裁定的一種？"],["王副秘書長梅英：就我們的調查，這個合議庭是在理由單裡面去批了這個裁定的意旨，合議庭在3月28日的時候是把這個審理單上裁定意旨的內容，也就是現在大家看到的……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就問得很清楚了，如果這個審理單按照高院那個法官的主張，他認為是所謂的裁定的話，他現在顯然就這樣主張，他的主張只是這個裁定有沒有對外發生法律效果，所以是不是要補送達的問題，我現在的問題是那個案件審理單上面的資訊，跟現在公告裁定的資訊內容是不是一樣，這件事情確認過了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，因為這個自律的內容也都已經揭露了，這個我們可以報告，這個審理單上最早原始的那個記載就是如現在所揭示的，但是自律委員會之所以成立、決議這個要送法評、有違失，其中的第二個理由是，他們後來在上面還有再增刪了一些東西。"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是我現在的核心問題，當初的案件審理單，我姑且把它稱為A版本，但是現在公告的裁定是B版本，我應該沒有說錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：現在公告的是第一個版本，是A版本，他後來還有第二跟第三。"],["黃委員國昌：他後面還有第二跟第三個版本？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個在新聞稿上已經有揭露了。"],["黃委員國昌：法官可以這樣做嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為依刑事訴訟法第四十條規定，公務員所制作的文書有增刪的時候，一定要去註記。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，依照他們現在的看法，那個裁定成立的時間點到底是什麼？那個裁定成立的時間點是A版本、B版本，還是C版本？如果按照你剛剛這樣的講法，有三個版本的裁定，現在公告的是第一個版本嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個版本和第三個版本從司法院的觀點算什麼？隨便亂寫的東西？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分要由合議庭來回答，司法院沒有辦法幫忙他們做解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：我尊重審判獨立，但是你如果尊重審判獨立尊重到A、B、C三個版本要怎麼回答，都要由合議庭來回答，在司法的公眾監督上面沒有辦法處理這件事情，等於是法官針對自己的裁定可以做很多版本嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，司法院的態度很清楚，因為他們這樣子做就已經是違背了這一些程式規定，也因此有這個違失，高院的自律委員會送法評的違失事由也有包括這一塊。"],["黃委員國昌：這個法官百分之百應該要送懲戒，我跟你沒有意見不一樣的地方，現在我在請教的是，在法律上面，現在這個裁定到底是A版本、B版本，還是C版本？因為它會牽涉到一個更大的問題是我昨天請教法務部部長的，上面的記載在後來被抽換，我相信我們都是法律人，不要爭執這件事情，這種事情用抽換的方式是不對的，我的理解沒有錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：電話紀錄嗎？還是審理單？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["王副秘書長梅英：電話紀錄？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，這也是違反刑事訴訟法第四十條。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我昨天請教完了之後，你有沒有回去瞭解，那個檢察官到底有沒有表達這個看法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如同整個電話紀錄裡面，我們還在調查中。"],["黃委員國昌：你們還在調查。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個還在調卷。"],["黃委員國昌：希望動作可以快一點，因為這個司法大醜聞，整個社會都非常非常關心。最後，我先請教司法院副秘書長，因為那位審判長已經不適任兼任庭長了，你們說要開人審會把他的庭長拔掉，庭長拔掉沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為這位庭長後來在4月1號就寫了簽呈自請免兼，這個也已經核定下來了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以連人審會都不用開了嘛。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，預計4月14號派令會生效。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來整個懲處的程序，可能法官評鑑委員會的公信力、社會公信力會再遭受一次社會全面的檢視，這個司法院應該心裡有數嘛。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的，也跟委員報告，昨天這個申請書也送到法評會了。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。接下來請部長，部長，我知道你等一下要走，我們講快一點。之前我揭露有檢察官跑去跟吳乃仁吃香喝辣，後來地檢署就地檢署的部分有把這幾個檢察官送檢察官評鑑，之前你們回給我的函說高檢署要做行政調查報告，這個行政調查報告完成了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，高檢有發交給北檢來做行政調查，北檢的行政調查是認為這個有違反公務員……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，你看公文最下一行，高檢的行政調查持續進行中，尚未結案。所以你現在回給我的高檢的行政調查到底還有沒有在進行？還是北檢移送評鑑以後就算結案了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個已經移送個案評鑑，這部分高檢也贊同這種看法，所以這邊已經結案了。"],["黃委員國昌：這個部分就算結案了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是送個案評鑑，所有參與餐會的這5位檢察官都送個案評鑑。"],["黃委員國昌：我公開質疑過一個問題，我到目前為止沒有聽到法務部的回應，所以我想今天公開請教你的回應，把這5個檢察官送評鑑，我非常贊成，因為敗壞檢察官官箴、傷害司法的公信力。但我的問題是什麼？這個標準有適用所有的檢調嗎？為什麼我這樣問？當初北檢的檢察長在當調查局局長的時候跑去台塑的招待所，那個時候正在接受調查的是誰？是鄭文燦，還有送他錢的楊兆麟，這個是等於什麼？調查局帶了一堆官員去台塑的招待所接受招待，一個貪污犯、送錢的人他們的招待，為什麼調查局局長（現任北檢檢察長）可以幹這種事情，然後都不需要接受任何的行政調查或懲處，是有雙標嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有雙標。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有雙標，請問，針對這位前調查局局長，現任臺北地檢署檢察長，法務部做了什麼處理？因為我看不到，我公開發文質疑了非常久，是跟全國的檢察官說，即使那個貪污犯、那個送錢的正在被調查，只要財大氣粗，一樣可以去他的招待所吃喝玩樂，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果有具體事證，我們是絕對……"],["黃委員國昌：停、停、停，這上面寫得還不夠清楚？王俊力也沒有否認他有去啊！他從頭到尾沒有否認他有去啊！他說他去是公務，我看不懂這是什麼公務啊！一個正在被你調查的貪污犯，送錢給鄭文燦的，在招待所裡面招待你，結果跟社會說是公務，然後整個法務部從上到下靜悄悄，都不用調查、不用處理！請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再重申，就是我們會秉公處理，絕對不會護短。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說要秉公處理，我非常讚賞，可不可以講具體一點，如何秉公處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個還是要經過了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這個還要了解？你要了解多久？給你一個禮拜了解夠不夠？這件事情發生很久了，我也公開質疑很久了，只不過我人微言輕、狗吠火車，我公開質疑了以後到今天，從法務部到高檢署到臺北地檢署，沒有一個人回應，大家都在裝沒事，反正用混的，混過去就好啦！然後您今天說要秉公處理，不要講空話，如何秉公處理？主席站起來了，給我一個答案就好，你需要多久？你說你還要調查，沒關係，我給你時間調查，一個禮拜夠不夠？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們半個月、兩個禮拜……"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜？好，兩個禮拜。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情該怎麼處理，兩個禮拜內請法務部正式回函給所有司法及法制委員會的委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。","由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢，但尚未確定，我們現在先確認議事錄。請問各位委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）好，沒有的話，議事錄確定。請陳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}