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請問在場委員對上次會議思路有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處來那個會議詢問來請鍾嘉斌委員主席在場的委員先請教一下我們這次會議是不是秘密會議"},{"start":1256.667,"end":1262.938,"text":"不是好那我們看一下這次的會議通知我們這次會議通知謝謝我們的議事人員我借一下"},{"start":1275.171,"end":1291.88,"text":"我們這次的開會通知的事由是立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會第五次全體委員會議那麼有邀請到國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉敬清率所屬單位"},{"start":1292.901,"end":1312.3,"text":"就行政院國家發展基金的105年所投資之直接投資組合中重要新興事業之績效與管理提出報告並被質詢所以呢首先我們先確認今天的會議不是秘密會議那今天的會議可以提出質詢請問主席是這樣子的嗎是好"},{"start":1313.782,"end":1329.394,"text":"接下來我們就一個提問因為根據立法院職權刑事法第52條本文調查、調閱報告書及處理意見未提出前其調查人員、工作人員、專業人員、保管人員或"},{"start":1330.094,"end":1352.76,"text":"查閱人員負有保密之義務我想這點上次主席也在會議當中也表示我們之前這次調查相關要調閱的文件都是在一個保密的情況下進行調閱我想再次請主席跟我們的會委員確定這點還是繼續落實是嗎我再跟總委員說明現在目前放在502裡面的會議資料總共有兩個類型"},{"start":1356.775,"end":1378.559,"text":"一個是密件一個不是密件然後呢分開存放需要是密件的部分都裝在牛皮紙袋當中那不是密件的部分就按照各個公司放在會議桌的資料上好所以呢這些所謂的我們要調閱或調查的內容現在都妥慎的保管的很好嗎"},{"start":1379.434,"end":1393.548,"text":"是 那有去調閱的委員都有留下大名我們也知道他看過了好 那我想請教一下那像這些被調閱的文件內容待會要備詢的國發會的代表他們看過嗎"},{"start":1395.604,"end":1414.254,"text":"資料是他們提供的他們應該看過吧因為這些我再說明一下所有的資料全部都是國發會跟國發基金提供的沒有不是他們提供的資料那既然是行政機關提出來的資料那我只能夠推定行政機關知道內容好"},{"start":1415.12,"end":1439.322,"text":"所以我們如果推定待會被尋的國發會的機關代表他們既然這些調閱的內容是他們所提供的那麼他們在被尋的時候在回應質詢的時候因為我們這裡寫不得負有保密之義務不得對調查調閱內容或處理情形予以介入今天既然不是一個秘密會議也就是說待會我們在質詢過程當中"},{"start":1440.723,"end":1468.669,"text":"如果被尋者他所要回覆的意見表達的內容就是現在陳列在被嚴格保管好不會有洩密之餘的那些文件內容那麼一旦待會的被尋官員引述了這些內容那麼在場聽到的人就負有保密之義務那是不是我們要先就現在的調查人員、工作人員、專業人員、保管人員、線上在場的人員進行一個保密義務的要求"},{"start":1469.673,"end":1494.161,"text":"因為待會可能我們諮詢劉主委的時候問了那他說的內容就是那些資料的內容那些資料的內容在我們的調閱報告書還沒出來之前這些內容是不得對外揭露的那當然可以對本會委員揭露但是既然對本會委員揭露我們要諮詢嘛我們要知道這些內容是什麼有人看過有人沒看過沒看過的人問了主委主委就那些內容表達之後"},{"start":1494.941,"end":1511.674,"text":"在場聽到的人就是屬於在我們第52條本文當中所指定的富有保密義務之人員那這樣的話那這個會議是不是主席要考慮為秘密會議現在您要直接提議要開秘密會議嗎"},{"start":1513.294,"end":1538.567,"text":"或者說我們 我現在看主席怎麼處理 詢問嘛先詢問說52條本文當中我跟與會的委員說明一下今天要處理的事項是我們針對於我們的國發會他所提出來的行政院國家發展基金對105年期所投資之直接投資組合中重要新興事業之績效與管理"},{"start":1539.761,"end":1567.426,"text":"今天主委報告的內容是這一份那因此委員所提出來詢答的內容基本上就是以對這一份的內容看委員有沒有什麼寶貴的意見希望國發會主委能夠回應的那至於說我相信我們的行政官員對他們所附保密義務的範圍跟內容分寸應該都蠻清楚的"},{"start":1568.326,"end":1593.174,"text":"所以我個人是認為說既然是針對這份報告來提出那委員們也針對這份報告來追尋所以今天沒有開秘密會議的必要那我才剛剛在這樣子的一個基礎上才會請教鍾委員是不是您提議現在要改開秘密會議主席本席並沒有做這樣提議因為法條上啊"},{"start":1594.382,"end":1617.011,"text":"要改開秘密會議要有一定的構成要件這裡面的文本當中的要求是富有保密之義務啊也就是說今天在場的人所聽到的待會兒備詢機關代表包括劉主委他所說的他可能會引述在剛剛我們說的我們調查調閱的那些資料範圍的內容他可能會引述"},{"start":1617.771,"end":1640.165,"text":"那這些資料內容雖然不是我們親自入場登記名字去看但是我們從主委的回應當中我們也看得到也看得到 也聽得到那我們就知道了原來我們調閱的資料內容根據主委答覆這些資料內容是哪些但是這哪些是屬於需要保守的秘密我們的條文上看不出來"},{"start":1641.414,"end":1663.017,"text":"所以我只能說是不是現場的人員應該要有一個登載知道哪些人在這個會議當中聽聞了這樣子屬於被保管不得在調查報告出爐之前不得對外接入或許我們不能夠阻止大家知道但是大家有義務在調查報告出來之前不能對外接入"},{"start":1664.539,"end":1685.675,"text":"對 大家可以聽啊 但是這裡只有說什麼條文的52條是說保密之一物啊 他不得在這個調查調閱報告未提出之前對這個事情對外接入嘛沒有說你不能知道啊 但是你不能接入啊那不能接入要知道哪些人知道 這些人有沒有對外接入 這是一個"},{"start":1686.918,"end":1711.827,"text":"還沒到達秘密會議的要求但是因為文本上有這樣的一個提示所以想請主席才是要怎麼處理這個情況在場的人員我現在也不曉得哪些人有不認識的人那如果這些人今天聽聞了之後在我們最後的調查報告還沒有出來之前他對外揭露了他聽聞的這些應該要保密的有保密義務的內容那我們怎麼處理我再次的跟那個鍾委員說明"},{"start":1713.891,"end":1728.87,"text":"今天國發會的處委所提出的書面報告是這一份那等一下委員針對這一份報告如果大家有問題可以提出來那我相信行政官員對他們守密義務的範圍他們應該非常的清楚"},{"start":1732.421,"end":1742.794,"text":"那因此今天針對這個報告所進行的詢答我是認為沒有什麼要去進行秘密會議或是另外去簽什麼保密義務這樣子的問題"},{"start":1745.902,"end":1762.789,"text":"主席還是沒有理解問題我沒有說要開秘密會議因為目前我們開秘密會議沒有那個條件但是這裡面文本是說這些我們調查報告書還沒提出之前現在就是屬於調查報告書還沒提出之前未來調查報告書怎麼書寫我們也不清楚但是呢在還沒提出之前"},{"start":1763.854,"end":1783.902,"text":"我們血裂的這些人他負有保密的義務他不得對什麼呢不得對調查調閱的內容就是放在那邊給大家調查調的內容或者說我們待會再討論之後國發會他的處理的一個方式處理這些內容沒有限制你不能知道"},{"start":1784.83,"end":1813.732,"text":"我們委員怎麼可以限制我們不知道呢我們不知道怎麼問啦當然要知道啊但是知道之後不能對外揭露啊那不能對外揭露的話現在主席好像誤以為說只有這兩份報告不能對外揭露是這樣的意思嗎不是啊不是啊這兩份報告是可以的這兩這份報告這份報告呢不是目前我們調閱的內容或處理的情形是他不是好但是確定喔確定不是喔因為很多人都拿到了嘛"},{"start":1815.447,"end":1837.458,"text":"但是如果說剛剛你說的主席所說的您相信在場的公務員他們心中有一個分寸他們不會把職務上不應該對外講的對外講那現在麻煩來了待會我要是問主委問他什麼事情他說這個我要心中的分寸這個不能對外講委員要的話您去那個地方登記去那邊看那我今天我問什麼"},{"start":1838.803,"end":1860.571,"text":"所以不能夠把所謂的對外是否負有保密的義務向前推進到答詢者的自我約制嘛他自己決定說啊這個東西呢是調查報告還沒有處理之前呢不能對外介入的所以委員你質詢我我也不能講那這樣子我們如何進行調查如何進行質詢呢所以很顯然的只要"},{"start":1861.57,"end":1890.885,"text":"被尋的人他基於我們的質詢的要求他所回覆的這些內容內容只要是涉及到原來被會議室被保管得很好必須是限制登記限約的那些內容那我們問的人 答的人 聽到的人就會有一個在最後的調閱報告還沒有出來之前不能對外揭露這不是一個容易也不是一個很困難的事情首先在場的人員喔 那還有一個問題啊現在這是有轉播的"},{"start":1892.148,"end":1911.524,"text":"那在有轉播的情況之下看到這個轉播的人他如何去保證他負有保密的義務所以我在還在強調主席所說的似乎要答詢的官員自己衡量你認為這個事情是有祕密性的你就不要對外講不只不要對外講連我們詢問的時候都不能講"},{"start":1913.052,"end":1939.185,"text":"所以我還是要請主席明確的告訴我這個條文當中所謂的保密之義務在調查報告未提出之前不得就內容或處理情形予以揭露這一點事情要怎麼去執行其實我剛剛已經兩次跟中委員做了說明了今天請主委報告的內容就如同會議的主題一樣"},{"start":1940.285,"end":1953.201,"text":"那他所提出來的書面報告也在這個地方那如果大家有看過這份書面報告的話就會發現並沒有涉及到什麼調查的結果或者是內容的問題"},{"start":1954.721,"end":1975.092,"text":"單純的是針對一個非常中性的問題也就是針對目前直接投資組合從中央新興事業的績效與管理而這樣子的一個報告即使不是在今天的調查委員會在一般的委員會當中所提出來的報告也不會有產生任何的問題第二個部分"},{"start":1976.192,"end":1996.464,"text":"就針對有關於針對這個報告委員如果有槌尋所提出來的問題我相信主委以及其他列席的官員他們都是非常優秀的公務員心裡面當然會非常清楚的知道什麼是可以講什麼是不能夠講的"},{"start":1998.143,"end":2010.728,"text":"所以我才具體的問就是說現在大家有沒有建議要開秘密會議如果大家覺得有秘密會議的必要那我就必須要依照議事程序處理那如果"},{"start":2011.901,"end":2030.108,"text":"您也沒有要提議要開秘密會議的話那是不是就先請主委針對他所提出來的報告來進行報告那大家看委員針對他所提出來的報告有沒有要進一步垂詢的事項我們會議按照這樣的方式來進行好嗎"},{"start":2031.883,"end":2045.192,"text":"對不起主席您在迴避主席落實第52條的規定第52條是要求人家要有保密的義務但是你把它推給陳說如果委員沒有在這裡提出要進行秘密會議那麼"},{"start":2046.345,"end":2074.755,"text":"就沒有秘密會議那沒有秘密會議至於大家有沒有遵守保密之義務就不在主席在主持會議當中落實52條的這樣的一個要求這是主席主持會議的要求主席要不要決定用改開秘密會議的方式來達到52條要求那如果你認為不需要是由你來做才是說本次會議不需要召開秘密會議但是大家必須遵守52條的保密之義務本來就是這樣啊"},{"start":2075.635,"end":2092.459,"text":"第二點 你要宣告啊 第二點不用宣告 你每一個立法委員 每一個行政官員都要守法 這還要特別宣告說在場的委員請大家要守法 行政官員請大家要守法 這不是很荒謬嗎沒有沒有 那是一個誤會了 它是說報告書 報告書不是現在的這個報告書報告書是未來"},{"start":2096.32,"end":2117.113,"text":"對啊 您說得很好 報告書就不是現在的這個報告書嘛但是我們不但對未來要書寫完成的報告書在提出之前不能對外揭露對於在這個報告書未提出來之前也不能對 你看後半段不得對調查調閱的內容或處理情形予以揭露"},{"start":2118.133,"end":2132.425,"text":"現在還沒有一個報告書但是我們在進行質詢的時候就會再進行一個調查我們事實上就是要進行一個調查那我們要這個進行調查的內容跟處理的情形"},{"start":2133.346,"end":2162.846,"text":"是不能夠在調查報告書出來之前予以揭露所以我們待會的質詢就是屬於一種調查的內容我們這裡面對於主委所提出的這個書面報告大家都看得到這是公開資料但是公開資料我們根據公開資料還有包括我們如果有委員去看那些必須登記名字才能看的資料之後我們對主委的詢問那就是一個我們調查的行使調查的內容這個行使調查的內容當然主委要據實以告"},{"start":2163.506,"end":2186.568,"text":"但是他據實以告的前提是告訴我們之後我們會做成一個最後的最後的一個報告處理報告這個處理報告還沒提出來之前你知悉了這些調查的內容的人你不能對外揭露所以我要說的說52條的本文當時也是由包括可能主席在內所擬具的條文"},{"start":2187.199,"end":2214.886,"text":"那現在這個條文要具體落實我們就需要能夠確保不是確保兩件事情第一個確保主委不會說出來他說的電容這些如果你沒有上去看那個資料的話你沒有去看我就不會告訴你是這樣嗎還是說他講了他告訴你了但是你在回詢質詢的過程當中你所得到的這樣的了解這就是我們調查的內容"},{"start":2215.734,"end":2239.309,"text":"我們的調查內容在場的人是不能夠在調查報告書出爐之前對外揭露文字上沒有說我們不能知道只說知道了你不能夠在調查報告書出爐之前予以揭露所以從現在開始我們所進行的對主委的質詢就是在履行52條的一種調查我們之前去"},{"start":2240.581,"end":2256.87,"text":"辦公室去那個會議室去看那些文件那是屬於調閱我們不管是對那個內容的調閱所得到的內容或者我們今天對主委質詢所進行的調查的內容都是屬於調查報告書出爐之前不得對外揭露就這樣而已"},{"start":2258.953,"end":2281.594,"text":"我就問主席這要怎麼落實啊剛剛你問我也回答不好意思我在第三次跟各位委員做一下我在第三次跟各位委員做一下說明今天我們請主委來報告的主題是這一個沒有涉及到調閱的內容也沒有涉及到任何調查報告前面"},{"start":2282.745,"end":2304.466,"text":"的事情這個是一個非常的中性然後讓國發會可以說明一下他們針對投資組合當中的績效跟管理他們是怎麼在作業的這個在其他的任何委員會當中提出來我們一般檢官員報告的事項的主題大概就長的這個樣子這裡面沒有任何的機密"},{"start":2305.767,"end":2327.557,"text":"這裡面也沒有任何調閱的內容這裡面當然不牽涉到說未來我們接下來要產生調查報告實際上面所執行的內容所以我剛剛在中委員的詢問之下我說了作為會議的主席我認為今天報告這樣子的一個主題沒有進行秘密會議的必要"},{"start":2328.41,"end":2339.365,"text":"那至於說各個立法委員還有行政官員對於相關的法例大家都應該要遵守那沒有遵守相關的法例各自會有各自的法律效果"},{"start":2340.396,"end":2367.752,"text":"所以 總委員您是沒有要建議要進行秘密會議嗎那經由您善意的提醒那我相信今天的委員跟今天的官員大家就會針對這份報告來聽主委的報告那大家有問題可以針對這個報告來進行詢問所以我今天才會用公開會議的方式那而且也有直播讓大家可以共同來監督"},{"start":2369.906,"end":2385.293,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我可不可以請求我這樣手上有一個善意的提醒用書面文字表的善意提醒可不可以印發給在場的每一個人因為這個是根據我們立法院職權新法第52條所構成的一個保密之義務"},{"start":2386.233,"end":2401.864,"text":"那我們要確定在場的每個人都看過如果能夠簽名更好確定你看過也知道沒有啦那個謝謝鍾委員的提醒立法院職權刑事法的規定我相信在場的每一個人這是您第六次說我相信手上就會有法條了嘛"},{"start":2402.324,"end":2418.59,"text":"我不會請求印給大家可以啊好來 那先主席先停一下先印給大家確定大家都看過這個內容之後知道自己保密的義務之後那麼也踐請我們如果是不是就麻煩議事人員把總委員所要提供給大家參考的每一個人都要 包括旁邊議長也要"},{"start":2420.282,"end":2441.312,"text":"好 那莊委員可以了嗎我等到大家都拿到之後我當然主席可以繼續啦當然是繼續啦不是說會議詢問嘛那我希望說確定都拿到之後你也問了我也回答了確定都拿到之後我再來做一個確認好不好不好意思喔確認大家拿到你要提供的資料這件事情並不是本會會議進行的法定要件"},{"start":2443.359,"end":2450.288,"text":"我已經非常客氣了你提供的資料要請議事人員幫你印我也請議事人員印了我今天並沒有要去"},{"start":2451.84,"end":2473.476,"text":"影響到我們會議進行或者確保會議是依法執行所以還是要確定一下那待會行政機關剛剛主席也宣告了因為行政機關必須遵守我們依法必須保守的祕密所以如果在質詢的過程當中如果您的回答在針對這個公開的報告書內容以外"},{"start":2474.176,"end":2490.414,"text":"你覺得是屬於那個被 我不知道什麼形容 那些被限約的資料在那個限約的資料當中 那你有不便就被限約的資料來進行答覆那請你們要很清楚的去拿捏這個分析 因為主席很相信大家"},{"start":2491.115,"end":2514.323,"text":"非常相信大家認為公務員都自然會守法會守密那至於守密的尺寸他讓大家自己去斟酌所以呢待會如果我們質詢內容問到這個書面報告的內容這個目前這個書面報告的內容答詢的人在回答的時候如果意識到你要答的內容可能是屬於限制閱讀那些資料那就要懇請委員上去限制閱讀的資料上去查閱"},{"start":2515.443,"end":2520.185,"text":"我大概是跟主席做這個確認好 謝謝 謝謝莊嘉斌委員那請問上次的會議議事錄可不可以確認好 我們確認議事錄來 請議事委員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":2529.298,"end":2551.55,"text":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉敬欽率所屬單位藉由行政院國家發展基金對105年起所投資之直接投資組合中重要新興事業之績效與管理提出報告並備諮詢先轉筆好那我們現在呢是請劉主任委員上台報告謝謝"},{"start":2563.951,"end":2578.02,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天應邀就行政院國發基金對105年起所投資之直投投資組合中重要信心事業之績效管理提出報告"},{"start":2579.677,"end":2598.424,"text":"國發基金自105年起所投資之直投組合的中央新興事業共計有37家截至113年12月31日止累積投資金額新台幣309.42億元已回收207.5億元此股的市值"},{"start":2605.185,"end":2609.746,"text":"目前有523.54億元投資獲利超過495.64元那這裡面跟各位報告有兩項無法統計的是第一個依照經濟部新創事業之規定經濟部新創事業的規定是"},{"start":2626.97,"end":2651.555,"text":"公司成立在8年以內資本額在1億以內或經常性流動員工於200人以內屬於新創事業那新創事業因為他有投資期有成長期擴張期在不同期間難以評估第二個是投資創投事業我們這裡面有投資到台山的基金因為台山基金在投資期是不會有任何的收益"},{"start":2652.535,"end":2667.018,"text":"所以未來的收益是還有一些這兩個部分的不確定性再來是我們37家的投資事業裡面屬於上市櫃及新會公司有15家累計投資196.69億已經回收198.26億持股市值499.26億投資獲利約500.83億其中有9家獲利6家投資虧損"},{"start":2682.481,"end":2701.617,"text":"那六家投資虧損的企業裡面我們會進一步去看它的營收的變動那其中有兩家在113年度已經有稅後盈餘四家還是呈現稅後虧損的部分那四家虧損的部分裡面我們進一步分析呢有兩家在113年稅後虧損較112年虧損減少那營運有所改善有兩家則虧損增加營運並沒有改善"},{"start":2711.789,"end":2731.873,"text":"那另外在於未上市公司共有22家處於投資期跟輔進入處分階段之創投事業目前還無法評估那8家屬於新創屬於開發建置期或者是新產品研發階段或是在臨床試驗階段暫時無法評估其績效但是有7家"},{"start":2735.214,"end":2756.312,"text":"因為他有二次增資所以我們從這裡可以看出他的股票的變動那我們也把明細附在這個後面那每一家的明細都很清楚那我們目前這裡面累計投資29.57億以回收0.1億那以最近一次的增資跟美股淨值來看市值約在24.28億投資虧損約5.19億"},{"start":2759.975,"end":2772.506,"text":"那其中三家投資獲利三家投資虧損三家投資獲利是台三投資KK Day以及逸傳科技那三家虧損的事業裡面有兩家最後盈餘改善"},{"start":2774.249,"end":2791.469,"text":"那這個有一家最後因為變差有一家進入了破產程序那另外在東北是進入破產程序那本基金已經就公司負責人機經理人提出訴訟以維持公股的權益"},{"start":2792.31,"end":2806.921,"text":"那對於國發基金在直接投資事業的管理措施我們總共推出了九項的改變第一個是慎選投資標的我們希望把投資門這個公司治理門檻口碑調查以及市場趨勢三項納入我們的投資標的的"},{"start":2810.484,"end":2839.944,"text":"改善就是從我們叫做精進原來我們的同仁都是依照法令來走我們現在只是把我們的規範做得比較更完整那從過去的政策投資我們加了增加這三項再來是我們強化審議的品質那我們審議的品質裡面我們除了增加這個公司的發展前景跟轉型能力我們要審核他的轉型的組織的改變而不是原組織不變再來我們把投資門檻從原來的二分之一的"},{"start":2841.204,"end":2861.515,"text":"的這個同意我們提高到三分之二或四分之三決依據他的要求的這個投資的內容那我們優化整個投資協議書在投資協議書我們增加了投資合約的保障包括附買賠條款包括我們e-minus等撥款而不是一次撥款那以及要求我們取得一定比例的董事席次"},{"start":2862.415,"end":2878.702,"text":"再來同時我們修正我們投資管理事業的管理我們過去是完全以財報來看但是對於投資股市來講上市櫃公司其實應該以投資報酬來看而不是用這家公司的營收舉例而言我們過去投資藥華藥"},{"start":2880.563,"end":2899.919,"text":"我們賺了46倍賺了46倍股價到800多但是我們過去僅以他的獲利來看因為股市的反映是反映這家公司的未來性結果我們只看他的營收我們就把這家公司列為這個高風險我們列為高風險然後追蹤戶其實不對因為他我們賺人的46%"},{"start":2901.841,"end":2915.812,"text":"對這家公司得到股市的這個這個極度的肯定那我們因此我依據我過去在產業的經驗我們重新做了一個調整希望把反映出我們真正投資的效益舉個例子KK Day"},{"start":2916.553,"end":2932.045,"text":"KK Day是台灣少見的獨角獸台灣少見的獨角獸一家新創公司已經規模到了700多人是亞洲數一數二的線上大概是數一數二的線上旅遊公司這樣的一個公司"},{"start":2933.126,"end":2957.509,"text":"因為在新創期它是虧損的結果我們過去的做法就是把它列為高風險的追蹤戶但是事實上在最近一次的增資從增資的價格來看我們投資獲利是67%增加了67%的獲利所以這一型的公司我們也把它列出來重新進行管理所以我們就會分成投資獲利跟未獲利然後是上市櫃有明顯的股價"},{"start":2958.57,"end":2981.682,"text":"新櫃的部分未上市的部分我們就以他的增值價沒有增值價我們看他的財務的移動的狀態有無改善所以透過這樣的方式會做到比較清楚的管理然後也比較容易找到有問題來要求公司進行改善再來我們建立了風險指標我們希望把我們的管理風險指標建立起來然後及早面對那這個風險指標有兩種一種來自於產業的風險一種來自於企業經營的風險"},{"start":2986.965,"end":3010.122,"text":"再來我們呢是再來我們就會定期檢討投資事業的這個管理情形那我們就有一個管理委員會定期來看然後呢來做做後續的發展再來同時我們透過董事會跟股東強化投入管理我們會對董事跟股東做強化性的教育希望協助那對於比較有問題的公司我們現在的股的"},{"start":3011.262,"end":3028.611,"text":"我們官派董事我們就改以兩種背景的人為準第一種是律師背景舉個例子像我們在聯合再生我們已經換律師進去希望能夠比較能夠維護權益那有一些比較我們需要會計師的我們也希望把會計師放進去讓會計師來做這兩種比較能夠協助公知治理的這個角色來協助我們改善"},{"start":3036.835,"end":3065.204,"text":"那我們現在正在爭取設立投後管理部門過去國發基金是由業務部門兼職做投後管理所以投後管理的力道是比較薄弱一點那我們現在重新申請了檢討了人力結構結果發現國發基金目前的基金規模已經相照我們前一次的人力的這個人力的規劃增加了19倍的規模相較於民間企業我們人均管理規模都超過了5倍以上"},{"start":3066.064,"end":3091.55,"text":"也就是說我們同仁的工作複合量包括加班都已經變得非常高了變得非常高了那所以呢我們也利用這個這次大院的這個調查以及這個監察院的要求我們呢去強化我們的管理投入管理部門那我們現在正在傾徵人力那另外在我們也精進我們的退場機制做適時的停損那我們最近我們得到黃委員的幾個"},{"start":3093.257,"end":3113.032,"text":"重要的訊息那因為我們本身不具備主動調查能力我想國內也沒有哪一個單位我想吳委員在場應該很清楚國內沒有任何一個機構有能力做主動調查那我們得到了被動的訊息之後我們就會依據這個被動訊息採取必要的法律行動包括早上我有跟黃委員報告我們在爐心的動作"},{"start":3114.333,"end":3127.071,"text":"我們都很清楚的在依據任何的這個線索我們就會即時去處理那我們另外在之後我們這邊也也列強烈了我們進進前進進後的每一個部分的前後的改善請委員再參考"},{"start":3129.935,"end":3150.364,"text":"因為這個內容繁多我就不做贅述我們只是希望在既有的原來在我們原有的法定規定上面再做進行的更進一步的優化我們希望讓國發基金在管理上面能夠做到更加的完善當然沒有完善的那一天我們只會持續的改善"},{"start":3151.064,"end":3177.596,"text":"那國發基金將來也會依據我們這個持續這個設立的宗旨我們的宗旨還是希望協助產業轉型協助產業創新我們比較不是以獲利為目的的投資那否則的話呢整個國家都是以獲利為準的話其實有時候在產業的福祉上面總要有一個單位來付出那我們希望繼續成立做出這種付出的單位"},{"start":3178.476,"end":3192.907,"text":"但是我們也會依據委員們給我們的建議大院給我們的建議我們去持續的改善那增加我們的投資效益跟改善我們的這個投資結構跟管理那也希望能夠協助產業持續的發展跟精進那"},{"start":3195.885,"end":3217.541,"text":"那我們也同時會強化公司治理我們希望這個公司治理的團隊得到人事總署核准行政院核定之後我們會即刻增加能力去優化我們的這個管理機制也就比較能夠協助我們進行退場的管理那適時的事故那提升我們的投資效益那以上報告謝謝各位委員的聆聽"},{"start":3221.653,"end":3245.941,"text":"好那個非常謝謝主委喔那請問在場的委員對於主委所提出來的報告有沒有要詢問的各位委員對主委所提出來的報告請問有沒有要詢問的都沒有人要問喔"},{"start":3254.124,"end":3268.191,"text":"大家對這個報告的內容都沒有要詢問的沒有嗎OK 好 請問各位委員有沒有臨時的提案可以齁 好"},{"start":3270.199,"end":3294.297,"text":"你有臨時提案沒有好那我們今天的主委的報告已經報告了完畢那各位委員也沒有臨時提案那我們今天的會議就到這邊結束謝謝大家 謝謝不會不會不會"},{"start":3303.234,"end":3305.998,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"16595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16595","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd9d3c58e6035bf089445fc32f41448fc04af80a8cb003b9ba545aa5bb5e50ecaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部部長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、財政部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室就「美國課徵對等關稅對我國交通公私部門之衝擊與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月16日及17日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-16T08:30:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-16T14:07:00+08:00","duration":20204,"影片長度":"05:36:44","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 - 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接下來我們特別感謝我們經濟部的政事何政事"},{"start":2062.793,"end":2085.155,"text":"外交部政次陳政次財政部常次我們謝常次行政院經貿談判副總談判代表嚴副代表好那我接下來還介紹我們本會委員我們洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2087.671,"end":2095.367,"text":"好那現在我們就請交通部我們各部會來針對問題"},{"start":2101.183,"end":2122.83,"text":"呃針對我們交通部的業務以及美國課程對於關稅對於我國交通公司部門的衝擊跟因應的專案報告首先我們就請呃交通部的陳部長但是讓控制在15分鐘左右好不好好謝謝我們請陳部長15分鐘15分鐘"},{"start":2130.447,"end":2155.312,"text":"主席各位委員先進今天應邀列席貴委員會就交通部主管重要業務提出報告聆聽各位委員的指教僅此表示感謝之意為了實現國家希望工程施政願景交通部以人本關懷為中心在AI行動內閣的推動下持續強化在智慧交通氣象、郵政、觀光等等的業務"},{"start":2156.852,"end":2180.677,"text":"以科技結合人本 以更安全 更便捷 更友善的前提其與成為全民的交通後盾有關本部各個施政的重點已經編列成書面報告 送達貴委員會 敬請各委員指教以下僅就提升運輸安全與便利性 建構便捷且具任性的交通系統"},{"start":2181.637,"end":2193.717,"text":"應用智慧交通科技推動永續數位觀光產業發展智慧郵政與氣象科技加速綠色運輸轉型等六大主軸提出簡要報告"},{"start":2195.185,"end":2211.799,"text":"主軸一提升運輸安全與便利性的方面交通不只是移動的過程更攸關每一個人的安全跟生活品質交通部近年來致力於推動人本交通檢要說明交通意外改善的初步成效"},{"start":2212.6,"end":2233.432,"text":"以113年相較112年30日死亡人數減少了73人受傷人數減少了15050人但是我們不以此為滿足交通部將持續透過道路工程改善以及智慧科技例如義照市路口的改善行穿"},{"start":2234.312,"end":2257.558,"text":"限的這個退縮等等的措施持續提升交通的安全此外我們也積極推動道安三支建的政策強化行人的安全維護第一支建我們要增加穿越道路行人與停車車輛的停等車輛的緩衝空間預計在今年的六月底完成修法減少大型車輛因行車視野較高"},{"start":2259.238,"end":2281.858,"text":"忽略穿越道路的行人第二支建改善道路行人穿越道的照明今年將持續改善400處的行人穿越道照明第三支建推動汽車隔熱紙透光率的管理提升將會召開會議凝聚社會共識之後再推動修法強化行車的安全"},{"start":2283.666,"end":2294.274,"text":"交通部持續推動幸福巴士的計畫目前在全國的偏鄉地區公路公共運輸涵蓋率已經超過94%預計117年將達成全國368鄉鎮鄉鄉有公車的目標另外我們也協助輔導地方將幸福巴士從固定的營運模式轉型為彈性預約制服務"},{"start":2311.417,"end":2333.854,"text":"並且讓偏鄉的公共運輸的質跟量都共同來提升為了確保鐵路的行車安全交通部持續推動國家鐵路安全計畫並且修正行車安全高風險項目的安全指標同步增加鐵路例行性的檢查頻率以預先掌握潛在的安全風險"},{"start":2335.609,"end":2359.906,"text":"主軸二建構便捷而且具韌性的交通系統持續優化海陸空路網強化基礎設施的防災應變能力以及氣候風險管理的評估機制確保交通系統具備快速防護以及應變的能力打造高效智慧韌性的交通網除了將包含"},{"start":2361.437,"end":2375.996,"text":"國一中風交流道的完工通車、淡江大橋的完工、蘇花安建設計畫的推行核定之外也將持續推動包含高鐵延伸宜蘭與屏東、花東地區鐵軌、雙軌電氣化的計畫"},{"start":2380.472,"end":2399.388,"text":"台鐵海線雙軌化與都會區鐵路立體化的計畫而且在115年台南市的鐵路地下化的第一個階段預計將會來通車同時也提升都會區交通運輸功能以及品質台北捷運環狀線在東環已經開工並且推動台南捷運第一期藍線的綜合規劃作業"},{"start":2408.083,"end":2436.196,"text":"目前桃園機場已經完成T3主體航廈全部16隻居住的吊樁預計在今年啟用北郎廳將可以增加旅客容納量到達580萬人次另外高雄機場新航廈東側立體停車場也將要來開工針對港口的建設預計在114年完成高雄港第三貨櫃中心碼頭改建工程第五貨櫃中心79"},{"start":2438.577,"end":2454.962,"text":"號碼頭全自動化貨櫃碼頭的試營運未來可以提供2.4萬2級大型貨櫃船的這個駁靠靠駁此外配合離岸風電的政策114年預計完成高雄港A6碼頭及後線土地115年預計完成台中港37、38號碼頭的新建工程"},{"start":2463.664,"end":2479.353,"text":"為了強化鐵公路的基礎建設防災韌性將針對國道以及省道的特性強化公路邊坡防災措施以及時掌握邊坡的狀況此外為了落實路權內邊坡的維護管理分級將頒布鐵路邊坡維護與管理規範將路權外的邊坡納入優先觀察的範圍之內"},{"start":2492.039,"end":2508.711,"text":"台鐵也已經完成編撥落實告警系統並且在6月完成車輛入侵阻隔設施及告警系統的建置為了達到定期檢測發現問題及早改善的目的定期檢測與特別檢測國省道橋樑以期達到"},{"start":2513.621,"end":2538.186,"text":"此外也針對鋼索之特性橋樑建置鎖立即時監測系統協助橋樑管理單位監測橋樑的狀況藉由建立公路預警防災的SOP透過警廣等等各個訊息的傳播管道告知疏導用路人以及及早預警封路的管制另外借近113年的4月"},{"start":2541.889,"end":2549.184,"text":"花蓮大地震的經驗我們研擬了蘇花路廊三小時評估啟動輸運計畫的SOP提供給鐵公路中斷之後的輸運備援方案"},{"start":2556.428,"end":2584.425,"text":"主軸三 應用智慧交通科技交通部藉由推動交通科技產業與創新發展加強運輸數據基礎以及加速智慧機場與智慧港口的建設致力於打造高效智慧運輸環境藉而推動交通運輸的數位轉型以及永續發展交通部透過公司協力的方式完成了隧道AI道路事件偵測等19件的合作計畫"},{"start":2586.632,"end":2613.44,"text":"範圍橫跨了鐵道海港空港公路以及觀光等等的領域總共有27個交通場域導入了智慧交通的服務帶動了人寶電腦等等的30家企業投入11億的自籌款創造了17億交通服務創新資源以及一年1600人的工作機會促進交通相關經濟效益超過3億"},{"start":2615.814,"end":2640.599,"text":"並且我們藉由無人機的技術除了推動偏鄉物流服務之外今年將規劃商業模式並且完成落地檢驗之外也會結合無人機與AI應用在橋樑的檢測今年將編撰智慧橋樑系統操作手冊以及指引並且辦理教育訓練推廣應用我們也建立運輸資料"},{"start":2643.493,"end":2666.448,"text":"流通服務平台鼓勵民間業者加值應用提供多項服務給民眾能夠更便利例如Google地圖以及旅運規劃服務公車火車捷運以及U-bike的查詢還有車載導航等等的系統另外我們更導入了AI智慧的移控的技術"},{"start":2667.589,"end":2691.505,"text":"協助19個縣市推動智慧交控中心改善運輸走廊擁塞的狀況並且已經在臺灣燈會等大型活動實際應用113年我們的桃園機場已經全數汰換71座的自動查驗通關系統將可以有效的加速旅客的通關的效率"},{"start":2692.725,"end":2706.41,"text":"桃園航空自由港區的冷鏈物流艙已經取得了國際航空運輸協會的航空冷鏈認證有助於打造綠色物流通道促進生技醫療業的發展"},{"start":2708.556,"end":2714.602,"text":"此外今年將完成新建桃園自由港區H棟廠房預計將可以增加600個工作機會並且創造3000億的貿易產值帶動AI產業聚落的發展"},{"start":2724.465,"end":2748.962,"text":"交通部也持續的在推動智慧港口113年全面啟用高雄港第七貨櫃中心運用5G的技術打造全自動化的貨櫃櫃場114年我們更將完成高雄港第三貨櫃中心的改建提升貨櫃處理量並且啟用彰化風場航道船舶交通服務中心大樓"},{"start":2750.243,"end":2772.498,"text":"將可以有效的擴大離岸風電的監控範圍此外我們將完成全港區提口不明傳播透過AI系統的建置及時發現不明傳播進港的異常事件並且提早告解主軸四我們將推動永續數位的觀光發展"},{"start":2775.202,"end":2804.05,"text":"交通部積極培育觀光人才結合智慧科技強化觀光亮點與品牌的行銷提升台灣的國際競爭力同時結合低碳運輸與在地文化推動綠色旅行並且讓旅遊的體驗更加的環保更加的有深度目前正在籌辦的財團法人觀光發展研訓院的相關作業要來強化市場的研究還有人才的培育以及數位觀光的發展"},{"start":2804.93,"end":2826.267,"text":"此外我們也透過北迴之巔旗艦計畫微笑南灣引台灣以及永續觀光景區亮點旗艦計畫建構台灣全新的觀光亮點帶動國內旅遊成長讓台灣的美景以及文化讓更多的人看見我們將持續推動國家風景區管理取得"},{"start":2828.311,"end":2838.823,"text":"國際綠色旅遊認證並且將北海岸東北角等六個管理處升級為國家級智慧景區透過數位科技創造更優質的旅遊體驗"},{"start":2841.238,"end":2858.952,"text":"讓旅行產業更有智慧更具吸引力我們將持續辦理各國的觀光會議持續推動觀光人才國際交流並且拓展海外的佈局114年預計將新增印度孟買辦事處等等達到17處駐外的辦事處7處的服務處"},{"start":2864.707,"end":2876.794,"text":"有效強化國際的旅客服務並且提升台灣觀光在全球的競爭力透過這些努力我們要讓台灣成為智慧永續的旅遊勝地吸引更多的國際旅客帶動觀光產業的發展"},{"start":2880.356,"end":2908.024,"text":"主軸五我們將發展智慧郵政與氣象科技113年我們啟用了郵政物流園區的自動倉儲設備有效提升電商物流效處理效率而且在114年也將完成園區內北台灣郵政作業中心自動化相關的工程預計可以集中處理全國70%以上的郵件分檢封送封運另外"},{"start":2909.788,"end":2916.756,"text":"郵政的綠能車隊114年累計將完成淘汰3,940輛的電動機車達到50%的比例以響應政府低碳永續發展的政策"},{"start":2928.274,"end":2944.583,"text":"交通部也引進先進的運算能力應用第六代高速運算電腦並且與NVIDIA合作加速AI氣象作業的技術發展我們今年將試辦路上強風特報鄉鎮燈號提供給鄉鎮尺度的強風預報以及燈號的分級並且預計完成建構雲林、宜蘭防災降雨雷達"},{"start":2954.949,"end":2978.256,"text":"提升豪大雨的這個監測跟防災的能力此外我們也強化地震預警的服務我們除了在113年已經完成了高雄市都會區客製化的地震預警系統之外114年也將建置台中市都會區客製化地震預警系統將可以進一步提升地震預警的精準度以及時效"},{"start":2979.383,"end":3005.981,"text":"主週六我們會加速綠色運輸的轉型為了鼓勵更多的民眾搭乘公共運輸我們推動了TPAS的通勤月票的服務也帶動了公共運輸的運量大幅的成長113年1月到11月我們總共的運量達到19.92億人次整體鐵公路以及公共運輸量比TPAS實施之前成長了28.98%顯示TPAS的政策"},{"start":3009.703,"end":3032.556,"text":"有顯著的成效為了讓更多的人能夠受惠我們在114年1月推出了TPAS 2.0常客優惠回饋希望更進一步的讓公共運輸的使用率能夠提升讓低碳的公共運輸成為更多人的選擇共同邁向永續交通以及淨零碳排的目標"},{"start":3034.096,"end":3053.91,"text":"113年國內的電動公車累計有3309輛已經達到年度的目標交通部後續將持續與縣市政府以及客運業者共同來合作達成市區公車全面電動化的政策目標交通部將跟經濟部共同來合作共同鼓勵民眾換購電動汽車以及電動機車以提升電動運具的市售比例"},{"start":3060.168,"end":3086.809,"text":"在完備電動車使用的環境部分除了國道的15處服務區以及1處休息站都已經提供電動車的快充服務之外113年國內公共充電樁的數量已經達到了1535槍整體的這個車樁的比例已經符合了歐盟建立的標準甚至還更高讓電動車的行駛更加的便利更加的安心"},{"start":3088.001,"end":3099.768,"text":"我們也將推動持續的推動綠色機場措施透過橋器、橋墊、太陽能光電設備以及地勤行李、拖行車的這個電動化降低碳排並且積極達成國際機場協會"},{"start":3103.137,"end":3124.815,"text":"碳認證等級第四級的目標讓台灣的機場環境更環保更永續此外我們也已經完成台灣港群溫室氣體自願性盤查並且持續汰換燃油設備傳播進出港檢數以及鼓勵港區業者使用再生能源發電以及減少"},{"start":3126.176,"end":3143.653,"text":"溫室氣體的排放此外根據行政院台灣岸電推動事辦計畫114年將完成高雄港郵輪岸電設置讓船舶在停靠停泊的時候可以用岸上的電力減少燃油的使用以及碳排放"},{"start":3144.494,"end":3164.351,"text":"打造更低碳、智慧的港口這些措施將大幅減少運輸的碳排讓台灣的機場、港口更符合國際永續發展的標準成為世界減碳目標貢獻的一份力量安全、便捷、平權、永續這個不只是目標"},{"start":3165.615,"end":3179.914,"text":"更是民眾對於交通部的期許也是我們最重要的使命交通部將秉持人本交通的精神並且以團隊合作的精神除了達成AI行動內閣的推動政策之外並且積極推動規劃各項"},{"start":3181.877,"end":3200.413,"text":"利民建立建設以及政策有效的運用智慧科技提升服務品質以及效能我們希望能夠提供全民優質的交通服務讓全民共享永續有感的交通施政成果以上是交通部重要業務的施政報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3202.096,"end":3224.044,"text":"好 謝謝我們陳部長這個特別加息一下因為大家都會誤會這個業務報告送來立法委員都不看經過大家看一下項目雖沒有改內容是有所改變所以這個要加以肯定不要其他的單位就像其他的單位他只有"},{"start":3225.124,"end":3250.194,"text":"每一年的拿來照抄 9乘9都是照抄這份報告還算是符合我們立法委員所需求我再來補充介紹一下我們李昆哲委員好 還沒有報告以前我是否因為剛才議事人員已經宣讀我們上一次的會議紀錄我要請教各位委員這個會議紀錄有沒有意見"},{"start":3253.592,"end":3269.469,"text":"好 沒有意見我們就確定那接下來我們就請經濟部的何敬昌次長原則性時間八分鐘以內 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":3275.729,"end":3287.98,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天承蒙貴委員會邀請就美國課生對等關稅對我國交通公司部門之衝擊與因應進行報告敬請各位委員不吝示教"},{"start":3289.076,"end":3313.493,"text":"美國總統川普在今年的3月26號宣布依據美國貿易擴張法第232條款對所有不在美國製造的汽車整車及車用零組件徵收25%的關稅整車包含乘用車與輕型卡車等車用零組件包含我國主要輸出產品如車身保險桿及車燈等"},{"start":3316.445,"end":3320.408,"text":"113年我國車輛產業含整車及零組件總產值達新台幣5023億元其中整車2077億元佔比41.3%零組件2946億元佔比58.7%"},{"start":3337.14,"end":3347.342,"text":"車輛產業就業人口約有8.3萬人我國車輛產業出口美國為35.58億美元整車出口美國0.96億美元佔整車總外銷值10.5%主要產品為全地行車ATV您主建出口美國34.62億美元佔您主建總外銷值52%"},{"start":3366.417,"end":3395.697,"text":"主要產品為車燈保險桿等售後服務產品主要的廠商分布是在桃園彰化以及台南等區域因應美國關稅的這個新政本部已經召開三場產業的座談會了解產業受衝擊的狀況那業者表示由於車用產品測試的驗證期比較長所以評估短期客戶仍然會持續下單但是部分業者表示將持續與客戶協商因應或評估擴大美國"},{"start":3396.477,"end":3421.914,"text":"美國廠的產能那車輛公會也呼籲政府來正視汽車產業鏈上下游30萬就業人口對經濟與就業的貢獻希望政府能夠為產業爭取最大的利益那行政院已經提出因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案整合跨部位的資源擬定九大面向共20項的措施投入總經費880億元全力讓國家經濟穩定產業發展穩定"},{"start":3426.817,"end":3444.013,"text":"國人生活安心那其中本部投入410億元那總共這個提供這個金融支持提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場等三大面向共四項支持措施協助受影響業者"},{"start":3445.796,"end":3472.676,"text":"那以下就重點說明這四項支援措施第一項外銷貸款優惠保證加碼是提供外銷貸款優惠信用保證第二項中小微企業貸款加碼是提供周轉性支出及購置機器設備貸款並搭配利息補貼及信用保證第三項補助研發轉型鼓勵企業技術升級打造更高規格的新產品佈局"},{"start":3473.878,"end":3476.408,"text":"國際多元市場第四項爭取海外訂單補助企業"},{"start":3478.615,"end":3494.841,"text":"海外新設展示中心發貨倉庫等實體據點或新增代理代理商或經銷商等協助企業拓展國際市場佈局本部同時也設立免付費諮詢專線及建立網站網頁專區來供業者查詢運用那後續也將持續關注美國關稅新政的最新動態及召開產業集團"},{"start":3504.084,"end":3524.978,"text":"會來瞭解業者的心聲與需求讓政策能夠更符合產業的需要以上報告敬請各位委員施政謝謝好謝謝我們經濟部何俊棠次長那接下來我們請外交部陳明祺次長來做報告原則性還是8分鐘以內"},{"start":3531.823,"end":3552.405,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安那麼稱謀貴委員會邀請外交部前來就美國科徵對等關稅對我交通公司部門之衝擊與因應進行專題報告並備質詢以下提出本部的說明敬請主席跟各位委員不吝私教"},{"start":3553.306,"end":3570.439,"text":"那麼川普政府上任後推動多項美國優先的這個貿易以及投資政策並且在美東時間本月二日宣布新的關稅措施包括從4月5號開始對所有國家進口貨品課徵10%的基礎關稅"},{"start":3573.221,"end":3591.307,"text":"自從4月9號開始對57國課徵11到50%不等的對等關稅那麼我國的稅率是32%川普總統之後在關稅原計生效日再宣布暫緩實施90日另外因應中國對美國課徵報復性關稅經過川普總統陸續調升對中國關稅之後"},{"start":3598.85,"end":3617.617,"text":"現在中國的貨品出口到美國,現在一共面對到的是145%的關稅。針對美國科徵對等關稅的衝擊因應,行政院已經提出了因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈的支持方案,就好像剛才經濟部已經報告,我們這邊不再贅述。"},{"start":3618.577,"end":3637.266,"text":"外交部也將積極配合行政院經濟外交工作委員會,透過跨部會的資源整合,強化資訊交流與協作,並且共商因應措施,降低川普總統關稅政策對我國包含交通產業等在內衝擊。"},{"start":3639.953,"end":3662.813,"text":"面對到美國總統提出對等關稅後的全球新局外交部現在正在跟國內相關的部會來共同執行總統所提出的深化台美經貿關係的路徑圖我們透過台美之間既有的對話管道跟機制向美方強調台美雙方共享深切的經貿利益"},{"start":3665.535,"end":3688.04,"text":"那麼在本月10日的時候,我們都要看得到,總統投書美國媒體Bloomberg,提出了深化台美經貿關係的路徑圖,包括以降低台美間所有的關稅為共同目標,尋求共同重啟貿易談判,擴大對美在能源、農業、工業以及軍售的採購,"},{"start":3689.42,"end":3699.107,"text":"增加雙方投資的量能以及致力排除非關稅的貿易障礙等等的具體措施回應川普總統的關稅政策"},{"start":3705.194,"end":3729.347,"text":"賴總統也強調將正中回應美方對高科技產品的出口管制以及低價商品違規轉運等等的問題我們知道台美的經貿談判團隊已經在本月11日跟美國相關官員進行過視訊會議就台美的對等關稅、非關稅的貿易障礙以及出口管制等等的議題進行意見溝通"},{"start":3732.569,"end":3754.108,"text":"本部將持續的透過既有的對話管道跟機制來強化溝通我們也會協助成立台美聯合艦隊善用美國的市場、科技、資金跟人才等等優勢在全球供應鏈重組的時候強化台灣的關鍵地位促進經濟安全"},{"start":3755.869,"end":3776.183,"text":"外交部也持續的會協同國內各個部會推動相關的因應策略具體的做法如下首先是擴大對美的採購以降低貿易逆差第二我們會擴大對美的投資讓台美的經貿合作更加緊密提升台灣的經貿戰略地位"},{"start":3778.064,"end":3790.737,"text":"除了台積電已經宣布對美再投資至少一千億美金以外美國白宮聲明已經多次將台灣承諾擴大對美投資列為重要政績凸顯台美雙方是互利共榮的供應鏈關係"},{"start":3796.964,"end":3811.655,"text":"總統也宣布將會成立跨部會的台灣投資美國隊支持雙邊的貿易跟投資此外我們的企業也響應美國商務部舉辦的SelectUSA Investment Summit選擇美國投資高峰會並且我們將會參與到半導體供應鏈"},{"start":3818.84,"end":3846.701,"text":"人工智慧及量子科技以及無人機供應鏈分團赴美各州強化我國產業與美國公司部門的對接強化台美在經貿、科技、安全領域的供應鏈合作外交部會跟相關部會共同協助我國業者來了解赴美的投資環境結合台美雙方的優勢增進台美的經貿地位及加強供應鏈的合作"},{"start":3847.421,"end":3870.955,"text":"提升臺灣的整體的經貿地位的這個地位第三個我們本部將會視需求在臺美既有的管道機制裡面納入相關的議題強化雙方在交通運輸領域的這個合作臺美曾經在2024年第五屆的這個經濟繁榮夥伴對話EPPD的正式會議上面討論"},{"start":3873.116,"end":3891.744,"text":"運輸經濟脅迫、運輸供應鏈與投資安全及能源轉型的議題雙方也曾經就運輸安全等的領域潛在合作機會交換意見外交部也將持續的關切川普政府針對交通相關產業比如說汽車產業"},{"start":3893.424,"end":3906.314,"text":"綱領以及造成等等的政策並配合各個主政部門的需求適時了解將相關的議題納入台美經貿政策溝通平台的可能性擴大台美的合作領域並且使雙方的經貿合作更加緊密"},{"start":3910.297,"end":3928.764,"text":"那麼外交部在總統跟行政院的指導之下將會在美國暫緩實施關稅的90天內與我國的相關部會合作那麼積極的對美交涉我們期盼共同將美國的對等關稅的政策衝擊降到最低"},{"start":3929.344,"end":3947.273,"text":"台美之間的這個夥伴關係建立在對自由民主的堅定信念歷年來並肩抵禦共產主義擴張並且共享經濟與安全利益外交部將積極與各相關部會合作執行深化台美經貿關係的路徑圖將台美的經濟關係的挑戰轉化為經濟動能任性與策略調整的新機會台美"},{"start":3954.736,"end":3983.714,"text":"更加緊密的這個貿易關係應該有助於雙方的經濟更可以成為區域安全的重要支柱以上報告那麼謝謝主席跟各位委員那麼敬請各位委員先進不吝指教繼續給予各本部大力的支持感謝好謝謝我們外交部陳明祺次長那接下來請財政部的謝林環次長原則性也是八分鐘以內"},{"start":3989.936,"end":4005.553,"text":"主席 各位委員 先進 大家好過委員會邀請相關部會就美國科徵對等關稅對我國交通公司部門的衝擊與因應提出專題報告緊究涉及財政部業務部分檢要說明如下 敬請指教"},{"start":4006.334,"end":4022.642,"text":"美國政府於本年4月3日依據貿易擴張法第232條的規定公告進口汽車及零組件關稅稅率適用25%的稅率汽車至4月3日生效汽車零組件部分至5月3日生效"},{"start":4023.982,"end":4032.306,"text":"說明我國對該等貨品的一個進出口的一個情形在小汽車部分我國汽車進口關稅稅率是17.5%113年進口總值新台幣2651億元"},{"start":4040.09,"end":4063.806,"text":"其中至美国进口303亿元占比11.4%我国1000cc以上的小客车113年出口总值有212亿元其中对美出口的值仅0.5亿元占比0.2%汽车零组件部分我国汽车零组件进口关税税率介于免税"},{"start":4064.386,"end":4071.15,"text":"到17.5%之間113年進口總值有2474億元其中至美國進口值有136億元佔比5.5%我國汽車零組件113年出口總值有3237億元其中對美出口值1460億元佔比45.1%"},{"start":4091.038,"end":4107.859,"text":"美国对对等关税对我国相关产业的一个发展财政部也提供相关的一个资源措施在金融支持方面为减轻厂商的资金成本提供出口厂商两千亿元的一个贸易融资利息优惠"},{"start":4108.78,"end":4137.232,"text":"针对具备出口美国外销时机或其关联产业且受到美国关税影响营收的这些厂商给予我国出口厂商贸易融资待放年利率减码1%每家厂商每年可以减收利息最高到500万元中小企业或金主管机关认定受美国关税冲击影响较大的厂商每年利率甚至可以提高减码可以提高到"},{"start":4139.194,"end":4151.545,"text":"1.5%每家廠商每年可以減收利息最高到600萬元同時提供出口廠商投保1651億元輸出保險費用的減免透過減輕廠商投保輸出保險對國外買主徵信費和保險費的負擔最低以一折來計收鼓勵我們廠商去開發新市場還有新客戶"},{"start":4163.871,"end":4178.831,"text":"在公股銀行的協助方面,針對企業貸款戶受美國關稅影響衝擊營運者,財政部也將持續督導公股銀行依據金管會辦理對於企業的融資寬緩措施,就符合條件者提供環繳本息。"},{"start":4180.473,"end":4199.345,"text":"或展延借款年期的一个协助来减轻企业的资金压力令公股银行对于中小及微型企业振兴融资方案也持续推动办理中为我们中小微的企业稳健经营创新与转型提供金融支持"},{"start":4200.265,"end":4227.746,"text":"在租稅协助方面,现行的产业创新条例针对各个产业有提供多项的租税优惠措施,包括研发支出投资抵减、智慧机械等设备投资抵减、关键产业制研发及先进制程设备投资抵减、投资新创事业的租税优惠、未分配盈余实质投资减除等,都来协助产业升级转型。"},{"start":4228.627,"end":4255.827,"text":"另外因應數位及綠色的雙手轉型協助企業因應國際經貿情勢的轉變行政院已經提出產業創新條例的修正草案延期第十條之一智慧機械等設備投資抵減的施行期間擴大適用範圍及提高支出上限並修正二十三條之一及二十三條之二鼓勵資金益助新創事業適用條件"},{"start":4258.155,"end":4268.124,"text":"財政部將持續關注產業發展及國際情勢配合產業政策檢討租稅優惠措施給予企業支持及維持國家經濟成長的動能"},{"start":4271.748,"end":4296.975,"text":"納稅人倘受美國實施對等關稅的政策衝擊致發生財務困難不能於稅捐繳納期間一次繳清應繳稅款者可依稅捐基徵法向基徵機關申請延期及分期繳納稅款本部已規劃延長今年5月的所得稅結算申報期間到6月底此外在降低業者的行政成本方面"},{"start":4298.618,"end":4320.754,"text":"自本年4月起我們的保稅業者按月匯報的報關案件可以免除減負裝箱單及我們的保稅業者每個月只需要匯整申報一份報單對於保稅業者與保稅區或科稅區之間的一些相關供應鏈的出貨案件均適用放寬措施經統計科學園區保稅工廠"},{"start":4323.976,"end":4345.443,"text":"保學倉庫、物流中心、科技產業園區、農業科技園區及智茂港區約有1,224家業者可以受惠每個月可以減少製作約20萬份的裝箱單及10萬小時的作業時間大幅降低業者的行政作業成本"},{"start":4346.303,"end":4364.362,"text":"此外海關也在今年4月起對前開科學園區的業者透過保稅的智慧服務平台擴大實施遠端集合減少我們海關的實地監管的查核作業降低行政干預有助減輕業者的一個法尊成本"},{"start":4365.481,"end":4376.67,"text":"至於有關是否調降汽車跟汽車零組件關稅跟汽車貨物稅的問題這是外界非常關心的一個問題關稅政策除影響國庫稅收也涉及國內產業的政策參據經濟部提供的一個產業面的意見我國車輛產業正值燃油車轉型電動車的關鍵時期談調降或取消關稅"},{"start":4391.462,"end":4416.124,"text":"恐有国产车厂及零组件车厂官厂撤离之余,影响产值及相关从业人员的生计,亦导致国产车竞争力与研发技术能量下滑,冲击下世代车辆产业的发展。汽车及汽车零组件关税税率是否调降,我们财政部将会与产业主管机关经济部来审慎评估考量。"},{"start":4417.472,"end":4443.834,"text":"今年財政部配合產業交通及環境政策以對電動車輛或中古汽機車及老舊大型車提供派救換薪等減免貨物稅的措施且一體適用於國產及進口營稅貨物已有實質減輕貨物稅的租稅負擔是否進一步調降汽車貨物稅的稅率我們財政部也會與產業主管機關來審慎評估"},{"start":4447.2,"end":4469.145,"text":"財政部持續關切美方後續的相關措施依據行政院整體的規劃方案就各產業主管機關審慎評估產業所受的一個影響及國際情勢來給予我們受衝擊企業相關的支持並配合團隊的需要提供相關的資訊以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們財政部謝林源次長"},{"start":4475.56,"end":4504.519,"text":"那這個我在這裡補充介紹一下因為剛才抱歉中華航空公司的高董事長高董事長也恭喜他啦 榮厚董事長也要拜託一下中華品質會越來越好抱歉剛才不跟你介紹他了好 接下來我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的我們顏惠欣副代表"},{"start":4506.46,"end":4534.329,"text":"時間還是在8分鐘以內主席 各位委員 各位女士 大家好陳孟貴委員會的邀請本辦公室來就今天這個主題來提出報告那以下簡要二要的說明也請各位委員來不吝指教我想首先我們要說明的是川普政府上任之後他有兩大的主軸"},{"start":4535.168,"end":4562.763,"text":"目的是要去調整美國的經濟結構以及它的體質而它的兩大主軸包括了以美國為優先的貿易政策以及投資政策那我們首先說明在貿易政策上面美國認為過去因為各國的關稅不對等跟美國的不對等邊境措施匯率的一些問題導致美國現在貨幣嚴重的赤字那這也就是讓美國現在產業空洞化"},{"start":4563.343,"end":4577.172,"text":"因此美國認為對於因應這個問題他要採取的措施就是要採取對等關稅然後審查他現在美國現有的這些FTA然後包括了他對於汽車鋼鋁木材銅這些產品"},{"start":4579.694,"end":4589.921,"text":"要去科徵所謂可能構成國家安全的232的鋼鋁稅那有些已經在實施當中那此外呢他也在4月14號已經公布對於半導體藥品他預告要針對這幾項產品來展開所謂232國家安全的這個公共意見的徵詢"},{"start":4600.928,"end":4629.273,"text":"那這是在貿易政策的部分在投資政策上面他也另外他是他的這個政策主軸所以呢他認為美國現在要去強化做很多的投資審查特別他要去避免很多的這些美國的關鍵產業受到其他有一些他覺得有威脅的外資所控制特別是他在意的這些半導體人工智慧量子跟生物技術的這些領域也因此你會看到他希望"},{"start":4629.753,"end":4647.726,"text":"要吸引更多他信賴的盟友去加大在美國的投資目的是要去創造美國的再工業化那所以在這些川普很明定川普政府明定的兩大政策目標之下我們會看到4月2號他公布了對等關稅"},{"start":4648.627,"end":4669.973,"text":"就是要來處理這些所謂貨品貿易赤字的問題那所以呢他提出了第一個呢這個對等關稅本身4月5號公布以後他是對超過180個國家以上都公布了所有的產品實施對等關稅所以在原本這超過180個國家"},{"start":4672.615,"end":4693.574,"text":"蕭美的這些產品 蘇美的這些所有產品是在這個關稅的基礎之上在一律加徵對等關稅第二個呢這個對等關稅的分佈對超過180個國家蘇美的產品一律先從10%開始科企那當然他對於逆差比較多的有57國所以他會"},{"start":4695.616,"end":4707.261,"text":"改為加徵個別關稅11到50%不等的對等關稅而台灣是32%那不過川普政府在4月10號他又公布了"},{"start":4708.373,"end":4726.675,"text":"把這些拿到個別國家的對等關稅暫停去適用而仍然維持按照原本的10%的對等關稅來加以實施除了中國直接提高到125%所以這個是我們現在所看到的對等關稅的分佈情形"},{"start":4727.898,"end":4745.381,"text":"那這個在等90天以後才會確認對等個別國家的對等關稅是否會提高那此外呢這個對等關稅他還有排除一些項目就是我剛才提到的他可能是現在科徵232的產品包括了鋼鋁"},{"start":4746.522,"end":4761.094,"text":"及衍生性汽車及零組件都按照原本的232的25%的條款來科徵關稅此外正在進行232的調查的包括銅木材"},{"start":4761.707,"end":4775.712,"text":"以及剛4月14號剛公告的預計要展開調查公眾諮詢的藥品半導體資通訊那此外還有一些精調能源等相關的物品也都排除在對人關稅"},{"start":4777.506,"end":4790.637,"text":"那我想今天針對汽車的部分呢如同我剛剛提到的汽車不適用不適用對等關稅他不是他適用的範圍而是屬於3月26號美國針對汽車及汽車進口汽車及離組件課徵"},{"start":4796.341,"end":4799.602,"text":"232的25%的加徵關稅所以他也沒有對等關稅疊加的問題他就是純粹是25%的關稅那不過因為商務部他"},{"start":4811.618,"end":4840.524,"text":"有提到這個25%的關稅呢是依據2019年他們經過232的國家安全的調查以後認為這些進口汽車及零組件確實有對美國的汽車產業產生的國家安全因此必須要扣任這個關稅那目前我們看到台灣蘇美的這個以汽車零組件為主因此我們現在消美的主要的這個"},{"start":4842.084,"end":4867.56,"text":"關稅呢就是會是這個國安稅25%加上原本我們現在輸銷到美國既有汽車零組件0到2.5%不等的這個關稅那我想這些適用的產品跟生效的日期剛剛我們前面的相關的部會都有說明我在這邊就略過不談那總結而言呢我們看到"},{"start":4869.09,"end":4885.995,"text":"我國因應這些美國對等關稅的一些做法我們首先當然在我們的賴總統的指示之下我們會持續透過協商的方式讓美國了解台灣跟美國在整個地緣政治戰略經濟上產業上面的一個合作"},{"start":4886.815,"end":4909.209,"text":"那我們也會持續的提升台灣產業在這個全球供應鏈上面的地位那對於美國的對等關稅我們沒有要計劃採取關稅報復那所以這是基本上我們的協商談判的基本立場第二個呢政府已經組成了談判的小組那由行政院政府院長領軍所以我們會透過"},{"start":4910.718,"end":4932.716,"text":"爭取改善對等關稅然後以降低台美所有關稅為共同的目標但是我們在除了談關稅以外還會有其他非關稅的議題我們也會兼顧國民的健康以及糧食安全然後鄭重來回應美國其他對於我們高科技的出口管制以及低價商品違規轉運的問題"},{"start":4934.537,"end":4956.248,"text":"此外我們的產業主管機關也都已經盤點可能對於受到對冷關稅衝擊的製造業跟農業也都給予了相關的盤點以及會已經提供公布會去提供的這個因應支援的方案那此外呢我想對我們經貿談判的這個工作上面我們會持續的"},{"start":4957.301,"end":4982.541,"text":"跟有盟國家合作來開拓更多元的市場那我們的目的是希望協助我們的台商能夠調整海外的生產基地形成台灣嘉義的策略那最重要的就是這個台灣嘉義是所謂的台灣加美國的這個新佈局那希望我們的台灣企業是跟流台灣可以加碼投資台灣但是也可以佈局全球"},{"start":4983.402,"end":4999.262,"text":"那所以總結而言呢我想美國是我們最重要的安全投資及貿易夥伴我們會持續地立足台灣佈局全球行銷全世界那以上報告 敬請主席跟各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":5000.353,"end":5020.033,"text":"好謝謝我們談判辦公室的嚴慧欣副代表那最後我們還是請交通部啊也就是針對公部門衝擊的因應這個專案報告好那請我們那個司長來做報告時間原則性不要超過8分鐘拜託"},{"start":5023.891,"end":5050.536,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀至委員會就美國課徵關稅對我國交通公司部門之衝擊與因應進行報告請請各位委員指教首先在衝擊評估部分美國原宣布自四月九日起對我國出口至美貨物課徵三十二的關稅後於四月十日宣布於九十天內先維持在百分之十我國對外貿易仰賴海空運輸美國是我國第二大出口國家如未來仍維持"},{"start":5050.956,"end":5075.751,"text":"高關稅政策恐對我國國際海空運輸造成影響亦連帶影響國內貨櫃貨運量坦後續造成各國通貨膨脹等連鎖反應亦恐影響觀光旅遊市場由於美國關稅政策仍持續變動中相關影響仍待持續觀察緊究可能之衝擊與影響說明如下海運部分全球前20大貨櫃行商我國行商集佔有三席包括長榮、陽明基、萬海"},{"start":5077.572,"end":5101.268,"text":"113年我國國際商港直接出口至美國貨櫃量約59萬2主要為鋼鐵與塑膠等製品可能影響評估短期尚未有航商航線及航班調整規劃為受到之前4月9日將實施對等官會制影響原有部分貨主取消頂藏為因美國已暫緩科徵高關稅短期的裝載力已逐漸恢復後續的變化仍需持續的觀察"},{"start":5102.509,"end":5109.616,"text":"空運部分113年國際及兩岸航空客運量合計約5356萬人次經營非美航線業者計有5家載客數約391萬人次113年我國航空出口貨物合計約233萬噸蘇美貨物約37萬噸可能影響評估客運部分目前尚未有取消航班情形"},{"start":5124.771,"end":5136.395,"text":"貨運部分由於對等關稅措施對全球貿易供應鏈及航空運輸可能發生重組作用航空公司已密切注意市場需求變化輸運部分 汽車貨運業 汽車路線貨運業及汽車貨櫃貨運業共計有5900餘家113年載運貨運量約5萬餘噸"},{"start":5143.638,"end":5156.427,"text":"台鐵貨運則以水泥石灰石及砂石等大宗貨物為主可能影響評估汽車貨運業及汽車路線貨運業以配送國內物件為主經評估目前尚無影響汽車貨櫃貨運業則以載運國際貨物為主可能受到海運貨櫃變化而產生連帶的影響"},{"start":5163.234,"end":5182.72,"text":"台鐵部分以內需為主之水泥砂石等原物料或需求可能因國內工程建設動能改變而變動觀光部分113年東北亞來台旅客佔入境旅客約三成東南亞佔三成港澳及歐美新興市場佔四成114年第一季來台旅客渴望突破210萬人次"},{"start":5184.4,"end":5204.765,"text":"可能影響評估目前美國課徵關稅尚未直接影響觀光產業當引發全球貿易戰造成各國通貨膨脹將波及商務旅客亦影響長程線旅客來台意願並可能使出境旅遊需求轉向國內旅遊郵政部分113年我國出口至美國國際罕見包裹等合計約166萬件可能影響評估"},{"start":5208.266,"end":5225.667,"text":"美國對等關稅對中華郵政C2C的基建模式尚無直接影響為因關稅提高造成出口需求降低可能導致國際郵件量減少並美國針對中國及香港取消小額郵件免稅待遇因台灣出口郵包並願被納入影響上代觀察"},{"start":5226.488,"end":5252.339,"text":"在因應措施部分共分為三大面向及六項措施第一大面向掌握貨物變化協助海空運業者增加營運彈性措施一強化彈性應對市場變動國際海空貨運自由化程度高業者會依據市場變化機動靈活調整航線班次本部民航局及航港局將審慎因應協助業者機動調整全球航網布局及增加營運彈性"},{"start":5253.539,"end":5272.808,"text":"措施二 因應轉單及出口需求啟動應變機制因應可能產生之轉單及急單效應港公司已要求自營櫃場投入船席與後線場地支援並研議提高獎勵誘因 以提升中轉貨量令堂短期有艙位供需失衡情形本部航港局將即時啟動國際海運運輸評管小組機制協調國籍航商增加航班艙位"},{"start":5278.57,"end":5304.19,"text":"第二大面向滾動調整行銷佈局提升觀光吸引力措施一靈活調整行銷措施拓展多元觀光客源因應國際市場經濟受影響程度不同本部觀光署將適時調整行銷推廣策略提高獎勵誘因並滾動檢討調配市場佈局以分散風險措施二推出主題旅遊強化國旅吸引力推動國旅主題旅遊及大型活動並"},{"start":5305.251,"end":5333.108,"text":"推出台灣PASS三大全新升級產品優化台灣官發整體行銷串接旅遊優惠吸引國人參與與消費第三大面向持續掌握營運情形適時提供支持措施措施一關注美關稅政策審慎因應美國對等關稅逾90天維持在10%短期對台影響降低本部將持續關注並掌握各交通產業客戶運量變化及營運情形以降低因關稅產生的可能影響"},{"start":5333.948,"end":5345.213,"text":"措施二配合行政院支持方案強化交通產業韌性行政院目前依舊出口供應鏈提出支持方案協助我國出口導向產業穩定發展談未來關稅衝擊交通產業發展本部將依據受影響層級適時提供支持措施結語"},{"start":5351.016,"end":5361.325,"text":"由於交通運輸為衍生性需求與國內外的產業鏈息息相關本部將持續關注交通運輸與觀光產業發展動態針對產業特性事實給予必要協助以強化整體運輸與觀光體系之應變能力並確保產業之彈性與韌性以上報告 敬請各位委員會議指教 謝謝"},{"start":5370.933,"end":5392.663,"text":"好謝謝我們交通部市長來現在我們就進行答詢先先告以下的事項執行時間出席委員6加1分鐘因為今天登記委員特別多所以就6加1分鐘列席委員4分鐘4分鐘"},{"start":5394.784,"end":5420.029,"text":"那委員花言登記的時間十點半截止十點半截止各委員如果有臨時提案請以十點鐘以前提出以便議事人員來彙整暫定十點三十分休息十分鐘中午言則不休息那現在我們請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行"},{"start":5427.728,"end":5432.692,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請交通部陳部長 外交部陳次長跟經貿談判辦公室嚴副代表陳部長好"},{"start":5448.086,"end":5466.202,"text":"我先請教一下次長跟副總代表好不好就是說各界大家都關心啦就是說現在我們也看到對美談判的部分我們持續緊鑼密鼓嘛但是確實昨天是第一波的談判名單沒有我們那我們應該還是會努力爭取希望能夠爭取在前段班談判對吧"},{"start":5468.615,"end":5496.256,"text":"報告委員我們是在第一波已經進行過相關的視訊會議我知道但是說昨天五個國家裡面沒有我們第一梯的談判名單但我們會持續努力爭取前段班的談判是吧我們是會爭取但是我們已經進行過首次的視訊的互動我想這個的效力也是跟面對面的溝通是類似的"},{"start":5496.476,"end":5516.261,"text":"好那昨天我們總質詢裡面很多委員都關心到對美談判的一個進度的部分那其中卓榮泰院長有提到是說購買美債也可能會是選項之一這個是有經過我們內部這個談判小組的一個共同討論跟盤點我們是不是請這個來麻煩Otn簡單說明就可以了"},{"start":5518.537,"end":5533.522,"text":"我想很多的談判的細節我們是不方便在這邊做進一步因為台美的談判這個默契啦那所以就是就您剛剛提到的副總代表這是昨天卓榮泰院長回答委員質詢的時候所說他說美債是談判選項之一"},{"start":5535.16,"end":5559.342,"text":"對就是任何我們覺得可以去解決降低美國所在的貿易逆差的問題我想都是開放討論的那應該有注意到是說央行總裁楊金榮也曾經講過說如果美方他現在要轉換把他美債轉換成長期債的話這有可能會造成這個金融上的風險這一點我們有注意到我們談判小組裡面也有央行相關的人員"},{"start":5560.775,"end":5584.532,"text":"我想所有的經貿相關的議題的相關的部會都有參與好 最後啦我只是請教一下就當然細節的部分我們還是希望我們外交同仁一起好好努力那但是談判是give and take所以說也有縣市長建議是說那現在是不是也有機會利用這樣的一個談判空間來爭取我們希望過去一直強調跟美國要達成的FTA是有這個考慮嗎"},{"start":5585.738,"end":5605.585,"text":"我當然說我的這個選項我們跟這個談判的運用上面都會非常的靈活那麼現在目前來說我們是這個避免台美雙重瞌睡是成為一個重要的所以我們也有提出可能跟美國爭取FTA的可能性我們會再爭取好OK來謝謝兩位請先請回我們還是回歸到交通部部長來部長"},{"start":5609.775,"end":5626.191,"text":"本席剛剛特別聽了一個小時的一個報告所有的部會我們都您聽那其中交通部不管是業務報告或者是我們相關的針對美國關稅的部分其實你在美國關稅的因應的對策裡面寫的相對還是比較保守"},{"start":5626.852,"end":5645.458,"text":"有強調觀光產業可能會造成大衝擊對不對那其他的產業咧現在我特別有看到你們內部的報告裡面有講到是說航運的部分有可能調整那要爭取我們這個轉運的部分是不是講一下因為你特別裡面有提到是說要有提出相關的獎勵誘因"},{"start":5646.538,"end":5661.574,"text":"是怎麼樣一個具體的方式我們目前的影響其實都還在觀察當中但是變化非常的快速沒有到很大但是很快速例如說上個禮拜我在這裡備詢的時候那個時候的我們整體的運艙量降低了差不多5%"},{"start":5663.055,"end":5680.977,"text":"那到現在是增加了5%所以中間變化其實蠻大變化蠻快但是他的變化幅度並沒有很大減少5%跟增加5%這樣的差距而已但是我們還是先預作準備預作準備的意思就是說有兩個可能性一個可能是會塞港"},{"start":5681.437,"end":5709.01,"text":"突然很大量的從台灣的港口進出對 尤其東南亞他可能要避開其他關稅等等部分所以你們特別有提到是說會有獎勵機制以及因應的變化方式這是一個可能性就是說很大量的進來那也有另外一個可能性那個可能性就是突然停頓下來像現在中國的狀況就是突然他的港口就突然停頓下來這兩種可能都有那這兩種我們都在預作準備當比較少的時候沒有人要來的時候我們當然就要鼓勵"},{"start":5709.75,"end":5737.091,"text":"就要獎勵希望鼓勵嘛那如果多的時候我們就希望港澳公司先把空間先空出來把我們的盤點可以出來的土地先空出來有可能會塞港或是可能貨運量很大的時候我們要做這樣的準備所以兩套的準備其實是不一樣的是 部長這都在您的書面報告本期問的是說書面報告以延伸的部分我們具體的措施是什麼目前獎勵的措施有嗎這個貨櫃獎勵措施已經出來了嗎"},{"start":5739.71,"end":5741.071,"text":"其實我們是每年都有針對貨櫃的獎勵因應這一次的關稅的原因所以我們會做的會更周延大概一個禮拜內"},{"start":5759.105,"end":5786.383,"text":"不要說我們自己提出來的報告好像自己都沒看的感覺啦來 部長那另外再請教 因為現在行政院880億其中是經濟部700億 農業部180億但是沒有其他部會那我們當然盤點之後 我昨天也問中太院長中太院長講說有可能提出來方案因為要在一個禮拜跟產業界溝通有可能提出來會比880億整體更多那就交通部門來講我們有沒有要提出 不管是觀光方面"},{"start":5787.003,"end":5798.774,"text":"不管是相關的產業衝擊方面有沒有提出因應這一波的關稅然後特別預算編列進去來爭取行政院的支持報告委員這個部分目前都還在滾動檢討當中下個禮拜就要出來因為實際上是這樣"},{"start":5802.037,"end":5826.171,"text":"行政院院長承諾說下個禮拜要出來那照理講各部會這個禮拜應該就已經要統整報告員影響的部分我剛剛有說它的變化非常快速但幅度還沒有到很大我剛剛在講的是航運業那我再跟您報告就是說觀光業的部分目前觀光業兩個指標其實蠻重要一個就是說我們要看郵輪跟這個航空的定位的這個開票的狀況有沒有下降"},{"start":5827.031,"end":5855.301,"text":"那目前看起來是還沒有第二個是看我們國內的這個定房率有沒有下降那目前看起來也都還沒有所以不過我們還是審慎並且很謹慎的隨時都在關注這個數字的變化當有需要之前我們大概就會先提出來那目前為止我們的產業以交通產業來說目前為止還沒有遇到那麼大的衝擊那我們還在評估當中那我所知道行政院目前是針對公我們還在看變化"},{"start":5856.101,"end":5882.923,"text":"如果有變化我們當然會提部長是下個禮拜行政院院長的講法是他就會送出行政院版的特別條例匡列多大的預算那裡面包括哪一些項目送來立法院來審查所以如果說你沒有超前部署先去因應也許七月八月觀光可能的需求你先報給行政院來去爭取這個預算的話你怎麼有辦法加入呢"},{"start":5884.415,"end":5911.437,"text":"這個就是我現在在提的部長這個應該是你們要去做的事情相對來說現在行政院要求各部會因為880億是一個餅那你要送進來立法院變特別條例特別條例 您知道在之前疫情之後所謂的振興經濟方案行政院送特別條例進來到真正三讀通過中間有多久時間嗎"},{"start":5913.637,"end":5936.392,"text":"時間我不曉得兩個多月是所以換言之即便是那時候疫情結束之後的振興方案3800億行政院提出來要到立法院正式刪除通過都要兩個多月的時間的時候中間還要審查中間還要調整那當然你們各部會就應該要盤點現在有可能的衝擊來跟行政院要求跟爭取啊不是嗎"},{"start":5937.533,"end":5944.341,"text":"報告委員大概會有影響的部分有可能的是觀光那觀光的部分我們正在盤點中什麼時候可以盤點出來"},{"start":5946.667,"end":5971.793,"text":"不是 不要讓我們大家都在這邊一起解決問題剛剛的報告我們也我跟李昆哲委員我們來這邊坐了一個小時聽各部會的一個報告有道理的地方我們聽但是我們現在針對站在民眾的角度我們提醒你們應該要超前部署的部分不能一問三不知不能問了都是說還在盤點問了都是還在檢討問了都是還在準備"},{"start":5975.219,"end":5982.888,"text":"那這樣國人要各位坐在辦公室裡面每天就想著畫大餅就好了"},{"start":5984.443,"end":6005.356,"text":"委員這件事情可能還是要說明一下因為部長講得很清楚因為我們現在在觀察的部分我們也有一些相關的方案在研擬這個沒有問題所以會不會跟行政院爭取就是說行政院報出來的下個禮拜報出來的特別條例要送立法院裡面會不會有屬於交通部針對觀光協助的這一塊"},{"start":6007.236,"end":6020.309,"text":"我們目前還在評估中因為我們自己本身也有積極預算所以我們相關的部分所以預算也都夠用嘛還在處理非常好署長講說預算都還很夠用來最後啦那個部長是"},{"start":6022.188,"end":6045.213,"text":"方方面面很多問題今天真的時間有限來我只講幾個部分第一郵輪上個禮拜我們國際郵輪你剛有特別提到觀光部分那郵輪也有遇到這個delay的狀況那造成說前一班的郵輪3000多名被困在沖繩後一班被迫取消那我想國際上當然我有看到交通部馬上就已經要求是說要消機會等相關部會來做應變會議"},{"start":6047.153,"end":6072.738,"text":"那現在的補償方案以及遊客的權益是不是有已經兼顧了目前已經講到差不多200美金的補償那看起來應該大部分的旅客應該是接受的所以從一開始的50美金然後到100美金到現在交通部介入之後爭取到200美金一個人還是一個艙位一個人一個人200美金來部長從最早50美金到100那現在已經20050嘛到100到現在到200好"},{"start":6075.913,"end":6098.734,"text":"部長有沒有看到這就是有官方介入主管機關讓消費者擔任消費者的後盾跟靠山而且也讓這個國際業者當然業者要來開拓市場我們歡迎但是也要有合理的保護機制所以是不是因應未來我國更多的這種郵輪的旅遊我們事先研擬一個公平的標準"},{"start":6099.455,"end":6117.32,"text":"就如果說未來發生類似的事情的時候就不用還要再開應變方案而是我們就已經預先有相關的保障如同類似消費者保護契約一樣就是能夠有一個標準讓所有業者依規則可循可以嗎永久說的這個部分我們正在做什麼時候可以做出來"},{"start":6118.311,"end":6138.577,"text":"因為過去沒有嘛那我們現在因應這樣的一個狀況那未來我肯定現在正在做的部分那什麼時候能夠做出來那個部分其實有啦只不過他的保障可能還沒有那麼全面那我們現在在做修訂當中什麼時候能夠修訂出來因應未來有可能的狀況因為如果說郵輪越來越多那我們只有可能這樣的發生率"},{"start":6139.117,"end":6164.984,"text":"有可能會還有下一次嘛來 各位報告針對國際委員販售船票的這個固定型化契約的應記載跟不得記載事項呢韓港局已經完成草案那些已經呈報交通部審議當中好 預計什麼時候可以出來部裡面有一定的這個法制的審議的程序但是都是在我們部內嘛所以換言之部長這邊我們會盡量改 積極 會盡量改"},{"start":6169.4,"end":6197.506,"text":"能不能在 現在是四月能不能至少在旺季之前能夠出來我們希望在旺季之前好 那就七月以前可以出來就是我們暑假之前嘛好 暑假之前感謝部長 我們繼續努力啦還是在交通委員會我想林國城委員站起來但是我必須要說交通委員會過去到現在就我從2020年進來相對來講是比較不講黨派不分朝野大家共同為交通建設 為地方發展為我國的"},{"start":6198.366,"end":6213.627,"text":"相關的交通來努力不要分彼此我們一起努力可以嗎這個沒問題啊當然是這個樣子謝謝我們洪孟楷委員接下來我們李昆澤委員執行"},{"start":6219.951,"end":6228,"text":"謝謝主席 請一下陳士凱部長 吳聖元市長還有陳文樂局長 高鐵鄭光元市長還有陳文樂局長 趙新華局長來陪一下陳部長五年好"},{"start":6242.165,"end":6270.238,"text":"部長好在4月14號這個高鐵的204車次經過板橋經過板橋它過站不停這樣的狀況影響了150名左右的乘客乘客很錯愕然後呢社會大眾也很驚訝我先請教一下陳文睿局長陳文睿局長那高鐵都會停板橋嗎"},{"start":6272.217,"end":6277.262,"text":"來 說明一下你的認知啦陳文睿局長是公務我當然知道啊"},{"start":6278.513,"end":6301.912,"text":"我來五界的交通委員會我怎麼會不知道我問他知不知道高鐵會不會停板橋我的認知應該是都會好謝謝社會上很多人都不清楚其實板橋每天都有高鐵的車次它是不停的每天都有啦這個北上的車次啊"},{"start":6302.995,"end":6332.001,"text":"每天都有至少有一班他是不停板橋的南下會有兩班他是不停的但是這個不停跟這個204車子又不一樣204車子他是要停板橋的那我先請教一下鄭光源董事長他也不是不停他有停下來停下來之後旅客大包小包行李準備要下車車子又開走了為什麼呢"},{"start":6332.483,"end":6356.511,"text":"他這個他誤以為這個應該是因為前一段時間他這個行動關係跟他講說設定70速限70那這個JAS我們了解最近這一兩個月裡面他前後都是第一班第二班第三班他都是開著第一班跟第三班都是過去都是沒有停的"},{"start":6357.071,"end":6375.969,"text":"然後他這一次六班裡面第一次他開的這個是這樣不是很離譜嗎因為我們高鐵的車是有直達車也有站站停也有跳站式的那我們的駕駛訓練成這種樣子他會搞不清楚"},{"start":6376.73,"end":6400.963,"text":"因為我到底開的是要站站停的還是直達車或者是板橋都要停的這個車站這個車次跟委員報告他其實他認知在行前的時候他是知道這個要停的這也不是駕駛個人的認知而已啦他有跟行控中心來聯繫嗎他有跟列車長聯繫嗎"},{"start":6402.264,"end":6412.156,"text":"這個就是他的疏忽 我們的規定就是說你如果不清楚 馬上請教OCC 警控中心跟他 他就疏忽了這個動作那我請教一下 那社會上有人會說這個"},{"start":6419.039,"end":6433.036,"text":"他已經行控了是不是能夠將這個車啊來停住啊或者是說這個車能不能倒退路他其實這個都違反行車的安全啊來那社會上有這種認知高鐵是不是說明一下"},{"start":6433.652,"end":6462.77,"text":"其實這是以後我們的一個改善的方向如果說駕駛它發生這個情況了我們的那個列車長也告訴了馬上就告訴我們的OCC我們有兩個方式去告訴OCC把它停下來另外一個呢就是說我們的列車長啊已經告訴他它還是開了我們也可以按我們的PEI馬上把它停下來這個是我們以後要努力的這個改善的一個方向"},{"start":6462.79,"end":6479.862,"text":"但是這樣其實都是危害到行車的安全不管是你強行的把它停下來或者是說要倒退路這對行車的安全都是造成衝擊在影響對嗎是的那你們這個要加強教育訓練你們在"},{"start":6482.618,"end":6501.984,"text":"車班派遣前的這一些啊確認沒有落實啊而且啊你們駕駛行控跟列車長之間的聯繫也沒有也沒有確認啊我就說你們有直達車有站站停也有跳站式的這樣的一個車次現在有34組的車次啊2027年啊會再增加12組的這種列車啊"},{"start":6508.294,"end":6534.639,"text":"那車次越來越多你們這樣目前就已經混亂成這個樣子了這個民眾無法接受喔這個謝謝這個委員指教我們確實要朝剛才委員講的那個方式刑檢的確認還有中間的駕駛員跟這個列車長行動中心的互相的聯繫這個我們要加強不容再發生來那個吳聖元董事長也是次長喔代理董事長"},{"start":6535.942,"end":6559.48,"text":"高鐵過站不停台鐵今年已經有六起停車不當的這樣的一個事件有四件是人為的因素有兩件是ATP的因素我們6月23號要漲價我們這樣的安全的掌握跟效率的問題真的是對不起民眾 來說明一下"},{"start":6560.576,"end":6580.572,"text":"我想我這個跟委員報告我想這個這次今年已經有六起的停車就是位置停的比較不好那這邊幾個大概剛提到的幾個是人為因素那現在我們大概有做幾個防範的措施我們針對幾個違規行為我們建議這樣一個資料庫從這個違規行為裡面去彙整系統性的這樣一個問題來針對他的問題去好好去做"},{"start":6587.277,"end":6606.547,"text":"第二個我們會有所謂的幹部隨程來督導看他做的做法有沒有什麼需要改善的第三個從我們ATP的管理裡面我們去分析哪一些有高風險的我們來做一些防範來部長這個都要加強督促啦是沒有錯把不要說的一片廳作為嚇死人"},{"start":6608.288,"end":6632.883,"text":"其實照SOP然後維持駕駛的紀律這個很重要不管是高鐵或是台鐵那台鐵的狀況其實也蠻多的所以這個部分我們會特別關注這要加強督促跟改善好另外部長就任到現在其實有一個政策我應該是給予認同就是有關於國道客運我們在春節期間還有親民的這個連假"},{"start":6634.224,"end":6651.61,"text":"有實施這個打折的這樣一個優惠在過去我記得都是大概都是打85折但是部長這一次針對希望民眾更有感受更願意來搭乘大眾運輸系統所以提升到6折那這個6折我看到我們的這個其實"},{"start":6654.079,"end":6681.906,"text":"公路客運的載客的總人次跟每日平均的載運人次其實是各個運輸系統裡面最不好的大概只有疫情之前的62%但是春節跟清明年假部長實施這個六者它實質的運量都有提升2025的春節比2024年的春節提升了31%然後清明節的年假"},{"start":6683.186,"end":6693.444,"text":"平均的這個平均日的日運量也達到15萬人次比春節他的這個廉價成長了24%所以我認為部長我要提議我們現在"},{"start":6696.414,"end":6724.135,"text":"春節跟清明年假都有這樣的一個六折的優惠措施而且搭乘量也明顯的提升那我是認為未來春節清明端午中秋四大節日都應該維持這樣的一個優惠措施就是讓民眾來搭乘大眾運輸搭乘國道客運也使得這種國道的這個乘載量可以比較沒有那麼沉重來部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":6725.676,"end":6745.153,"text":"報告委員您的這個建議確實我們之前因為這個國道客運的承載量狀況不是很好所以我們今年特別在春節跟這個清明的時候我們特別提出六折的這個計畫確實成績非常的不錯很多的民眾願意搭國道客運這是個很好的現象那但是我們這個預算的部分"},{"start":6746.914,"end":6765.523,"text":"我們再盤點一下不過委員這個建議很好就是說四大節日其實是民眾集中而且是蠻單向性的運輸的習慣我們如果可以的話讓國道客運可以都打六折讓更多的民眾習慣去搭國道客運我覺得這個假日是培養運量最好的時機"},{"start":6766.343,"end":6790.599,"text":"好 這個部分我們盡量來配合委員建議我們盡量來配合部長 你在國道客運的這個打折提升它的運量這個是成績是大家可以認同的但是你也有成績做得不夠的就是有關於我們的交通的安全的改善那交通安全的改善雖然略有進步但是還沒有到達下降3%的這樣的一個總目標"},{"start":6793.682,"end":6814.674,"text":"這個3%就是我當初跟交通部跟行政院共同討論出來我們必須要有一個明確的目標來告訴社會大眾我們要做到什麼程度那當然啦國家道路交通安全的綱要計畫行政院在2月7號2024年2月7號核定通過也已經一年了我們來看看啦"},{"start":6815.695,"end":6833.815,"text":"大安司的交通事故的這個死傷的統計死亡的人數啊有下降了2.4然後事故的件數啊也下降了2.2受傷的人數啊下降了2.7雖然都有"},{"start":6834.929,"end":6845.74,"text":"提升進步但是還是未達目標我們社會大眾還是嚴格的認為我們交通安全的改善還是不及格沒有達到目標這個部分我們看到"},{"start":6850.266,"end":6877.738,"text":"為打目標之外還有幾個我們特別要去注意就是高齡者青年以及大型車的事故它的件數都有明顯的增加那這個部分部長你能不能簡單說明一下我們針對這樣的一個高齡者青年以及大型車的事故它有明顯的增加交通部有什麼對策我們有什麼針對"},{"start":6879.673,"end":6880.518,"text":"尤其是不良駕駛行為這樣的一個"},{"start":6883.703,"end":6912.26,"text":"改善有沒有什麼加強訓練或者是相關的這種改善追蹤的一個制度來說明一下是 報告委員比較增加的部分是無照駕駛的部分其實增加了不少那針對無照駕駛的部分當然一方面罰則增加那二方面該有的機車的訓練給青少年的部分這個我們也正在加強當中機車訓練的部分那大型車的部分我們應該公路局也有針對大型車的部分有一些計畫啦就是說針對它的車行或者是公司"},{"start":6912.68,"end":6935.686,"text":"我們也有一些祭典的計畫並且要求他們的教育訓練必須要落實高風險的駕駛我們的教育訓練必須要落實這個部分也會加強除了相關的教育訓練還有針對違規之後我們的交通部尤其是公路局相關的我們有一些要求他們改善的一些教育訓練的一些課程"},{"start":6936.546,"end":6954.889,"text":"這個必須要更精進然後我們相關的這個改善的追蹤也必須要建立制度這些改善的這樣的一個相關的這一種範本要提供給各縣市能夠去做交流能夠去作為一個改善的範本部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":6956.11,"end":6981.784,"text":"報告委員您的這個建議我們會照做這個部分各個縣市其實都要互相交流好的方法大家一起學那這個部分我會拜託公路局落實來做部長我再一次提醒你我們對於交通安全國人都在注意3%已經是一個低標了雖然已經快接近及格的分數但還是不及格我們還是要嚴格的打分數還是不及格我們希望"},{"start":6983.186,"end":7001.847,"text":"針對我們交通的相關的道路的國家交通安全這些改善的綱要計畫必須要去落實交通安全基本法相關的號誌、燈號、危險路段等等的這些改善都是你很重要的工作部長要全力以赴好 謝謝委員"},{"start":7003.349,"end":7027.848,"text":"謝謝李昆哲委員我們特別跟大會報告就是林俊憲委員執行完畢我們休息十分鐘也是林俊憲委員執行完畢休息十分鐘好我們現在請林國成召委發言"},{"start":7034.059,"end":7051.073,"text":"好 請主席 請陳部長請陳部長還有財政部我們次長請財政部次長還有我們行政院辦公室的嚴慧欣副代表請嚴副代表長官好"},{"start":7060.916,"end":7086.698,"text":"好 部長剛才本席在主持會議的時候當然因為我常主張小問題看出以後就沒有大問題所以我特別稱讚你們這個報告書裡面基本上照抄機率蠻低的所以值得肯定當然我們就希望有關單位"},{"start":7087.859,"end":7113.946,"text":"照抄的比例要低一點項目可以但是內容不可以因為每人做的工作完全不一樣所以這點要跟你肯定一下那另外一個啦我們說實在除了我們交通業務因為我們有常有機會在交通委員會我們做充分溝通對於整個業務部分那當然還是要提醒一下該解凍的"},{"start":7115.406,"end":7133.564,"text":"盡快趕快送來這是我的呼籲沒有一個召委一直呼籲你趕快來解凍的啦但是你們有什麼難處是另外一回事但是我必須要去強調解凍非常重要因為我們交通委員會在審查預算的時候"},{"start":7134.665,"end":7147.289,"text":"基本上對交通部所有的建設包括觀光署包括公路等等這些建設我們很少刪的所以這個部分你不要把它扯到業務會跟特資會的問題扯到這裡來台灣的建設絕對不能分黨派"},{"start":7154.091,"end":7173.884,"text":"所以這個我要特別提醒我們這個部長這個部分可能要儘快啦台灣的建設也不要等啦不管國際的情勢如何艱難我想台灣還是要往前走這是我蠻提醒的那現在我就要來談第一個部分這個"},{"start":7177.349,"end":7191.975,"text":"高關稅到底我們交通部雖然不是主管機關但是最起碼的話也是會衝擊啊你說我們三大航空公司我們海運啊 海輪啊這等等東西也是有關"},{"start":7192.975,"end":7212.164,"text":"我要了解一下剛剛我們這個洪孟愷在問你們都還在規劃我相信包括觀光包括整個我們交通運輸就很簡單啊我們汽車進口等等這些像我們電動搭巴士等等這些一定會去衝擊那我請問部長你們現在在整個"},{"start":7216.026,"end":7240.875,"text":"這些損傷的這些評估到底有沒有跟業者了解他們到底現在需求以及未來未以籌謀的等等面對高關稅這個部分部長有沒有召集他們來了解真正的問題有沒有報告委員第一波影響會比較大大概是海空運"},{"start":7241.815,"end":7268.248,"text":"那海空運的部分我們隨時跟業者保持密切的聯繫並且針對他們的定位率也好或者是定倉率也好我們隨時都在掌握那另外一方面針對這個業者例如說是工業的業者他們出口或許有需要定倉那有沒有這個急需的這個調查的部分我們也隨時在做所以我們也有這個航港局也有做這個調查表到目前為止我們航港局並沒有收到業者的這個需求"},{"start":7269.148,"end":7296.574,"text":"所以這個部分海空運的部分我們密切在觀察也密切在關注如果隨時有變化需要請我們的國籍的航空公司也好或者是船運公司該怎麼配合我們都會來配合好那這個部分我們隨時在掌握好部長我還是要建議啦因為交通運輸業確確實實也在你主管屬下啦所以啊我再認為各行各業一定會有衝擊但是在交通部分你特別還是要去關心一下"},{"start":7297.134,"end":7320.943,"text":"包括航空公司包括海運包括等等那另外一個我不曉得因為財政部的次長你們在整個報關業務如何去簡化也就是通關的業務部分我不曉得部長有沒有跟財政部啊這裡做一個辨明的溝通這很重要耶這很重要"},{"start":7322.303,"end":7337.371,"text":"目前其實通關狀況是沒有篩報的狀況那其實如果在通關線上有發生篩報的情形比如說轉運貨物或進出口貨物量激增的話其實我們第一線同仁都會激動官務長都會激動調派人員來處理"},{"start":7339.452,"end":7351.121,"text":"那這個部分我們跟交通部在通商口岸的部分都會維持密切的合作來保障這個通關的順暢所以我說實在的啦越艱難的時代越要便民所以我問題要問這個議題就很簡單雖然這個我們政府做得到的我們說實在我們就盡量要去方便"},{"start":7363.61,"end":7370.203,"text":"最後我也知道那個那個袁輝星袁副代表我要請教你一個問題我們承認"},{"start":7373.468,"end":7397.008,"text":"現在的情況來看大國是非常任性的但是小國啊也是任命所以你們現在在對岸的兩個談判的時候說實在的有時候我要建議啊談判當然有機密跟他的手法可是我看到我們現在在整個談判小組金脈談判小組當中欸你們要為以籌謀欸第一個"},{"start":7402.752,"end":7419.911,"text":"產生什麼事第二個產生什麼要有ABC的替代方案可是我看我們只有一招欸零關稅談起當然不是說不對啦但是零關稅談起在這裡我們嚴務代表我特別要請教一下"},{"start":7420.965,"end":7448.695,"text":"我們的農業我們的漁業我們的農民零關稅會很慘的那這個你們一定知道今天當然不是在跟這個農業有關可是最起碼這也是談判籌碼之一啊不是說一個零關稅有一個議題跟美國來談我告訴你啦美國你是要前進兩步退一步"},{"start":7449.295,"end":7467.154,"text":"可是美國是只有前進不會後退但是談判計較的過程當中你們零關稅的情況之下有沒有考慮到農民尤其是稻穀崩盤的這些危機來 言代表"},{"start":7468.76,"end":7481.368,"text":"謝謝委員我想委員也非常清楚跟美國談判絕對是一個壓力不小的一個對象所以我講大國是任性嘛那小國是任命嘛"},{"start":7482.372,"end":7504.008,"text":"所以這些東西我們也知道你們的難處可是我們該爭取的還是要爭取啊不是嗎當然絕對是我們基本上就像我們剛剛開始就有預先模擬我們會模擬說美國可能會課的關稅是10到20%或者是20到30或30%我們實際上有預估非常多的方案那我想就像我們的準備工作一樣我們談判也是這樣子你對農產品尤其我們台灣的農民"},{"start":7511.052,"end":7526.026,"text":"請問一下你們有什麼補救跟因應之道跟有可能花生這些大米一進來 稻米一進來我們的稻米一定崩盤啊我看到我們881的這個情況補助當中在這個部分 農民是很少的"},{"start":7534.053,"end":7556.535,"text":"你有沒有考慮到這個應該要如何去爭取到農民最最高的一個最小的損失最高的這個機會好謝謝那個委員我想對我們農民來說我們一定是尊重我們的農業主管機關對於跟我們農產的這相關的評論哎呀農業部沒有用啦"},{"start":7558.004,"end":7576.106,"text":"是沒有機會來罵他啦這真的不是站在農民他是在當官嘛農業部本來就是這樣嘛但是你們現在在談判結果會影響他們的執政也是影響他們的決策所以我要聽聽你在這個部分你有什麼看法"},{"start":7577.605,"end":7605.404,"text":"我想我們所理解到的如果農產品進一步的開放的話可能會包括或許因為如果柯真對等關稅的話有可能美國對於農產的這個需求或許它整體性的需求會降低因為我們要看現在台灣出口到美國去的可能是像蝴蝶蘭這一類的產品它未必是一個民生必須現在比較嚴重的是稻米的部分是一定崩盤"},{"start":7606.585,"end":7634.252,"text":"一定崩盤所以當然啦因為農業是非常管的那我也希望我們原代表這裡把這個意見帶回去不要只有談企業有關這當然很重要但是農民零關稅這是我們台灣立農以來我們非常重要也是非常衝擊的一個部分請"},{"start":7635.692,"end":7659.471,"text":"你們在談判小組要納入這些危機的處理跟農民的利益這個要特別去考慮好不好好一定納入這個要拜託好不好那最後我還是要拜託包括財政部包括我們部長這個部分的各方面的交通有關的這些可能要納入這些提供資訊給他們談判小組好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7674.016,"end":7685.304,"text":"好那接下來我們民進縣委員執行好 感謝主席本期邀請我們交通部陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":7692.932,"end":7722.079,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們今天在這裡討論美國關稅這次的對台灣的一個影響是其中大家前幾天討論很多的是汽車業但汽車業大家討論的就是台灣的關稅17.5%還有30%的貨物稅是但是我要請教部長美國這一次他針對他的四十幾個主要貿易國家他每一個國家他都寫一份報告"},{"start":7724.025,"end":7745.983,"text":"我查了這四十幾個國家他點名汽車就是對美國汽車不公平的主要國家只有台灣其他都是一些奇奇怪怪像非洲一些國家可是美國點名台灣對美國的汽車有貿易障礙他沒有講關稅也沒有講什麼貨物稅"},{"start":7750.393,"end":7768.472,"text":"當然關稅我們太高 貨幣稅我們太高 這個我們現在可以跟美國來談那現在看起來大概 主管部會啊 大家也就美國這個部分啊在談但美國對於台灣 美國車子啊 到台灣來 他最大的不滿"},{"start":7770.046,"end":7796.463,"text":"它是技術性的障礙不是關稅非關稅貿易障礙對可是我看這幾天在討論汽車業汽車的影響都是講財政部 經濟部我從來沒看交通部交通部都躲起來今天造成汽車業被美國點名最主要的就是交通部政策造成的美方點名的是Technical Barriers to Trade"},{"start":7797.222,"end":7819.934,"text":"技術性的貿易障礙你知道我們的障礙是什麼嗎報告委員其實汽車的部分有三項一項當然是交通部的一些法規上面是有一些限制沒有錯安全檢驗的部分標準檢驗的部分那第二項其實是跟能源是有相關的也就是我們能源署對於汽車油耗也是有限制我講的是美國點名我們的障礙是什麼東西"},{"start":7820.954,"end":7843.027,"text":"我看起來你好像不懂這個部分耶你說的技術障礙我再跟你講技術障礙沒有說完不是不是說美國這次點名技術障礙可能很多種也不止三種對啊那美國點名我們是什麼地方安全法規標準安全法規標準的部分不是美國點名的是說我們對美國車子啊到台灣來我們一個車型啊一年配額限制75輛是"},{"start":7847.165,"end":7867.174,"text":"那你知不知道 之前我們對美國車子到台灣來我們一個車型 原本一年限制多少輛很像最早期是從兩千輛到七十五輛兩千慢慢慢慢降 降到現在七十五一種車型所以你要針對美國不滿的地方來 你今天報告裡面寫的 你不寫也不寫這裡面寫的 航運貨運觀光"},{"start":7871.96,"end":7877.699,"text":"你針對這幾天討論最多的就是汽車包委員這個部分我們其實跟那你的報告應該告訴我們"},{"start":7879.754,"end":7906.406,"text":"那針對這個部分你要怎麼處理因為這個確實有一點不公平啦那美國進口的二手車有沒有配合沒有配合沒有配合喔這變得很奇怪的喔所以美國的二手車到台灣來啊就所謂的掛過 在美國掛過牌的啦就是我們台灣你說的外匯車啦李秋車啦一年哇 這個好幾萬台啊這個蠻多的很多台喔對"},{"start":7907.597,"end":7926.59,"text":"所以台灣上路的美規中古車啊各位看啦 這個其實看得出來啦我們外行 我為了這個才去研究因為世界上有兩大系統一個是歐盟的規則一個是美國聯邦經濟安全標準那台灣加入WTO的時候我們採用的是歐盟標準"},{"start":7927.591,"end":7952.217,"text":"因為世界主要汽車大國都在歐洲所以如果從歐洲進口車沒有這個問題沒有配合而且就是只要歐盟審核通過的車子就可以到台灣來但美國車子我們就特別定下一個障礙一個車型一年只能75台原本是一年2000台那現在變成到75台我不知道車安中心為什麼這麼定這誰定的"},{"start":7956.675,"end":7981.281,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員所提到確實就是說這個現行這個車輛安全法規的部分的話大家都是調和聯合國因為EC法規進來那原則上就是說國際上各個車廠要銷售到各地的這個車輛的話基本上就是要符合當地國的這個法規那當時這個純美規車輛的部分基本上就是說純美規你為什麼先回答我的問題"},{"start":7984.342,"end":8010.183,"text":"從2000台到75台那為什麼美國二手車你就沒有限配各位我們報告一下當時對於純美規的這個車輛基本上其實我們是相較於日本或是韓國是特別開了一條路就是說純美規的車輛還可以到這個國內來那剛剛委員所提到那個外匯車中古車的部分的話因為他是屬於這個使用過的車輛他的法規檢測項目比較少所以"},{"start":8010.523,"end":8024.63,"text":"如果玫瑰車你講的是我們特別開個phone那為什麼二手車都可以就沒有限制然後你新車就給他限制我現在不是你在這邊跟我講現在是美方把這樣子認為是一個貿易障礙"},{"start":8026.507,"end":8054.173,"text":"他他特別點名台灣你你為什麼給我做這樣的限制報告委員這個部分我們已經跟行政院那邊也都有做溝通那未來該怎麼樣去跟美國談判其實我們也都已經有版本這個都沒問題 我跟你說啦部長我跟你講他們這個一個你們車安中心還有陸中獅這邊喔這個這個你們這個非常衙門化你這官僚喔你你也回答不出來啊你兩兄弟現在槓七十五台所以各位有沒有注意到啊其實啊"},{"start":8055.506,"end":8084.893,"text":"很多台灣到台灣的一些那個什麼台灣現在看不到純美美國車的車子啦像卡迪拉克啦雪佛朗這些你大概看不到啦那福特為什麼看得到那福特車子為什麼看不到福特車子都是歐規的啦他們是做歐規的沒錯他們都用歐規的車包含特斯拉雖然在美國製造但是他是用歐規的車他們都用歐規的車因為我們台灣人很多只用車營七十幾台嘛"},{"start":8086.055,"end":8098.98,"text":"現在造成我記得好像投靠達有一個車型有一個車啦他就用一個車型他其實同一台車啦他用不同的規格車子就申請為四五種車型用這樣來鑽漏洞那你也是準啊"},{"start":8103.743,"end":8130.653,"text":"你賣準跟委員報告他那個沒有賺那麼多因為我們是同意車同意這個規格車輛形式那因為他們的我跟你講這個如果不是美國把他點出來說你台灣設一個貿易障礙我也不知道我也不知道我們有這麼多人我現在發現啦美方指責我們這個貿易障礙這有得力啊你憑什麼人就市長來決定啦對不對但其實日韓各國也都是那我跟你講喔你這樣的話對於"},{"start":8133.929,"end":8149.675,"text":"你不要被旁邊的影響美國沒有跟日本車 韓國車美國車子銷到日本 韓國 美國沒有點出貿易障礙他只有特別點台灣你不要被旁邊的幕僚給你唬爛去還有 你要給我們寫關稅對台灣的交通部對關稅的因應還有影響台灣有個產業會影響很大"},{"start":8157.867,"end":8177.106,"text":"台灣沒有車子銷美國啦 幾乎沒有但台灣的汽車零組件 銷美國量很大啦台灣一年有1000多億的汽車零組件這是台灣非常重要的衛銷產業啦台灣非常強啦包括燈啦 輪框啦 輪壺 一大堆啦你現在如果美國用這樣的關稅齁那這個汽車零組件溫暢的"},{"start":8179.369,"end":8202.114,"text":"你裡面連寫也沒寫到報告委員這是在經濟部的報告裡面那跟你交通部沒關係嗎對不對零組件的產業不是我的產業這些也是你們交通部車輛的零組件嘛照你寫各位可以看一下交通部寫的這個報告跟美國關稅跟交通部一樣應用也沒有你寫起來是毫無影響啊那我再告訴你你躲了好幾天啊"},{"start":8205.711,"end":8234.435,"text":"去美方點名我們的汽車貿易障礙要出來回答這個問題的是交通部啦財政部講的是關稅 那沒有錯我去談經濟部有去談你的關稅或污稅那你交通部要出來回答這個問題嘛你告訴我台灣是很少見的來 你去查一下美國對這幾十個主要貿易國家有提到汽車台灣大概是唯一啦"},{"start":8235.475,"end":8260.219,"text":"其他國家我們沒有看到你說日本 韓國 沒有啦美方沒有認為他美國撐制到日本 韓國有什麼障礙只有點名我們台灣那點名就是這個問題這個其實不合理啦那如果沒有美國來點名的話其實沒有人知道他們也是照幹啦你旁邊那些他們什麼相關單位報告委員第一時間我們已經跟行政院那邊都有溝通我知道 因為美國都跟你講而已他還沒講我們就再處理了好 謝謝主席啦 謝謝部長"},{"start":8265.6,"end":8269.803,"text":"好 謝謝我們林靜憲委員現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8286.653,"end":8286.673,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":8308.293,"end":8310.314,"text":"現在交通部就加交通部會"},{"start":8327.982,"end":8328.443,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳。"},{"start":8352.662,"end":8353.563,"text":"這裏是一間酒店"},{"start":8371.518,"end":8374.22,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":8391.553,"end":8393.974,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":8409.403,"end":8410.144,"text":"我們覺得美白很強"},{"start":8439.087,"end":8442.951,"text":"他現在已經改了,不是他們改的,他只是衝刮,不玩了"},{"start":8454.9,"end":8455.62,"text":"每次 每次"},{"start":8481.928,"end":8482.709,"text":"這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。"},{"start":8496.66,"end":8497.58,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳的名稱是大廈餐廳"},{"start":8518.295,"end":8520.077,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":8545.249,"end":8550.37,"text":"一開始我就覺得它們都是等待人家站在旁邊,然後把人家帶走。"},{"start":8572.074,"end":8572.795,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳"},{"start":8589.935,"end":8590.676,"text":"這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。"},{"start":8607.415,"end":8607.976,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳。"},{"start":8622.847,"end":8625.009,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":8639.781,"end":8640.221,"text":"這裏是那裏"},{"start":8664.672,"end":8665.212,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳。這裏是一間餐廳。"},{"start":8688.317,"end":8689.437,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈,有個大廈,有個大廈,"},{"start":8716.984,"end":8717.224,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":8742.517,"end":8771.47,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":8771.93,"end":8774.171,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":8792.406,"end":8792.947,"text":"這裏是一座大廈。這裏是大廈。"},{"start":8805.714,"end":8807.355,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":8832.648,"end":8834.575,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":8838.795,"end":8843.98,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":8874.843,"end":8879.965,"text":"好 各位請就座接下來我們魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":8892.93,"end":8909.419,"text":"好 謝謝主席何俊我們交通部陳部長好 陳部長還有我們經濟部何次長何次長來財政部謝次長好還有我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的嚴副總代表委員好"},{"start":8918.325,"end":8941.292,"text":"好 謝謝四位 謝謝主席排今天的一個比較複合性的一個題目有這麼多的部會到達交通委員會首先是不是要請我們這個嚴副總代表因為要貿易談判我相信這個準備應該是長年在準備非常積極就請問一下我先問一下就是你覺得這一次就是川普"},{"start":8943.073,"end":8961.19,"text":"總統他的對等關稅的一個政策或者世界貿易的這樣的所謂的大戰有可能要引發你覺得對台灣來講這是台美單一的爭議還是會是變成世界貿易的一個多方向的大戰你們現在的判斷是怎麼樣"},{"start":8963.033,"end":8989.512,"text":"因為我想川普政府現在所科徵的對等關稅是他的起手式我說就貿易的層面是起手式之一那這個起手式是針對超過180個國家來科徵的所以我想他應該不是他不是純粹一個台灣面對的問題而是全世界都正在處理那只是說每一個國家因為他面對的情況這個關稅的高低不同所以大家各自處理的方式就不同好"},{"start":8991.158,"end":9004.663,"text":"這個我覺得業界包括很多學者的看法大概跟你這樣滿一致的因為這會觸發一個全世界的一個很多的一個變化因為現在不可預期90天之後會是發生什麼樣一個情況"},{"start":9005.703,"end":9021.729,"text":"整個世界貿易是如何的組合是產生了多邊還是大國效應還是區塊的能夠緊密聯合我覺得因為時代有很多種變化但是大家應該可以確定這絕對不是單一台美的一些問題也就是說"},{"start":9023.59,"end":9038.018,"text":"你在談這件事的時候你要看一下看一下我在談好了譬如說剛剛講的這個非關稅貿易障礙美國現在只能進一年75輛的一個汽車那可是你說我們要改"},{"start":9039.042,"end":9058.318,"text":"沒有那麼簡單啊這是我們2002年參加WTO裡面選擇的我們聯合國歐洲的經濟委員會跟他們1958年的一個一個用他那邊的一個數字算出來的嘛那當然你也可以啊我跟你談然後我不理歐盟所以我覺得很多的關稅是一個問題和貿易障礙"},{"start":9060.74,"end":9085.638,"text":"非關稅貿易戰其實交通部還真的蠻多的真的蠻多的你們要好好去研究一下那請教一下我們財政部好不好財政部請問一下我們台灣前五大貿易順差國前五大貿易順差國這些貿易夥伴貿易夥伴大概有哪些不一定要排順序美國 日本歐盟 中國"},{"start":9087.306,"end":9107.558,"text":"歐盟沒有來這個部分因為這是你們的關務署的一個訊息那現在就是去年去年剛結帳去年現在看起來貿易順差排序的話第一名中國大陸跟香港第二名美國第三名新加坡第四名越南第五名馬來西亞"},{"start":9109.039,"end":9121.368,"text":"那這個部分我們是純粹用它的貿易順差的一個順序來排的那我們也看了一下光這前五名前五名的一個貿易順差"},{"start":9127.062,"end":9154.674,"text":"他的比重到底多少也出口啦大家都知道我們出口多嘛人家進口少就感覺我們台灣的貿易順差感覺我們生意做得比較好那我們在出口排名前五名前五名就是順差前五名來看他的總金額這還沒有把日本加進來大概就已經將近七成到八成所以他比重是很強的也許我們後面還有五十個貿易夥伴五十個貿易夥伴但是金額是相對比較少的那我這樣講這個意思是什麼呢"},{"start":9155.794,"end":9183.085,"text":"我一看起來就知道這一次談判要非常重非常謹慎所以我看到行政院長也提出很多這些想法我希望談得很順利啦因為這東西知識體大對台灣的一個產業科技的產業甚至未來會不會經濟蕭條都非常有關聯但是我們希望剛剛我們副總代表談的是我相信很多的專家學員在想你們在談的時候要特別注意一件事情也就是說"},{"start":9184.105,"end":9211.199,"text":"美國這個非常重要它的一個出口額佔我們行政院公布的我們去年度總出口金額4750億美元的一個出口的總額大概佔23%當然重要四分之一但是你們要回頭去想七成五還有七成五我任何一個貿易一個措施一個互惠關係可能會什麼樣的影響我真的是建議你們要注意"},{"start":9212.406,"end":9213.812,"text":"那我想問一下次長"},{"start":9215.12,"end":9235.593,"text":"右邊川普經濟學首先我們要談判有一個基礎我們經常在地方做一些民間的處理那個基礎是很重要的譬如說車禍球場一個人開500萬然後你一上去是要從500萬開始談嗎但一般都會說抱歉100萬所以我們覺得現在給的基礎你認不認同美國32%第二個美國32%他簡單的算法就是就"},{"start":9244.258,"end":9260.08,"text":"美國來說他是逆差他就會吃虧了我貿易逆差基本上就是除以我的進口從台灣進口的總額然後再除以2大概是32%比例那你認不認同那如果你認同的話會有破窗效應"},{"start":9261.317,"end":9281.282,"text":"世界貿易會有擴張效應喔就哇台灣真的很棒是一個非常好的貿易夥伴我只要加加減減除除貿易順差國每一個都照這樣的去加減除除的話我只列前五大順差國這個部分來現在換你說第一個你認不認同這樣的一個算法這個數字"},{"start":9282.558,"end":9302.762,"text":"是跟委員報告這是川普政府他們計算對等關稅的這個方式其實我們在第一時間據我了解我們的外交單位跟我們的經貿談判辦公室已經跟美方傳達了一個不合理的方式是你覺得這個算數學啦不合理就是你們覺得OK啦"},{"start":9305.639,"end":9331.378,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想這個公式合不合理很多國家都有提出我們的不同質疑特別是它的公式的計算上就如同您剛才提到的它只有用逆差的數額跟出口到這個美國去的總金額來作為這個加減乘除的一個公式但是實際上它有加上一些變數包括譬如說台灣跟美國之間我們有一些進口價格的替代性或者是說它對於台灣的產品是不是一個剛性需求"},{"start":9331.958,"end":9355.332,"text":"這些每一個國家的係數就美國現在這個公式來說都是一樣的係數所以確實來說看起來有一些不合理的這是根本一個不合理的一個算法而且他算出來那個貿易順差逆差跟個別的關稅有些是根本沒有直接關聯的所以每個國家大部分都覺得一頭霧水那我覺得這個的部分絕對不是一個我們談判的極點"},{"start":9356.172,"end":9377.997,"text":"起點我們自己要算出來好吧就算我們大概預估是什麼樣一個方向我真的要建議這個是非常非常重要像我們剛剛講說汽車的非關稅的貿易的這個障礙那這種真的還是蠻多的我要請部長回去尤其市長也在這裡你們真的要去盤點一下不是只有那個數字的問題"},{"start":9378.997,"end":9404.083,"text":"你們中間有太多了如果無限上綱的話就是我們幾年前抗爭的歐盟義大利的EVICO這個貨車你們規定5公噸以下只要一般的駕照就可以了但是加上這個車6公尺6公尺就不行你要去考貨車大貨車的一個駕照人家已經抗議了非常多次這是標準的如果就外國來講"},{"start":9405.003,"end":9421.64,"text":"是標準的非關稅的貿易障礙為什麼因為設計這個障礙我車就不用進口了所以我是覺得這個部分包括監理業務你車安的業務有很多的問題是需要去處理的最後經濟部長我最後"},{"start":9425.714,"end":9443.168,"text":"我覺得因為你們幾位最主要是談判的主力那當然國家的一個產業經濟在經濟部一個重責大任對於產業的訊息我看到你們也下槍去講那我想最後我做個結論現在我們真的是希望在談判的時候"},{"start":9444.449,"end":9473.829,"text":"不要產生那種破窗效應就說原來這樣的對台灣就可以原來我這樣的台灣就會來我這邊投資我覺得你們要特別注意這件事情但是我是真的建議啦建議給你們現在尤其談判代表現在看起來有四個籌碼第一個公司部門對美國加大採購跟投資但是我要拜託一下吧所有談判的人都知道我跟我老婆做談判的時候也一定要"},{"start":9475.049,"end":9498.879,"text":"談好了才付錢你知道嗎你現在第一個談判頭碼你還沒談台積電一千萬他已經開了這叫先跑先跑通不算喔我們在談判的過程大通也簽約了連電也都談好了我告訴你你政府如果出發到那裡的時候已經裝到別人口袋的時候不要作為談判頭碼我覺得你們要稍微控制一下"},{"start":9499.699,"end":9510.423,"text":"那至於說關稅要降低這看起來是第二個方向但如果是覺得你們到底是只對這個台美的關稅這樣那BNW會不會打電話來罵人換歐盟來抗議我們這要講一下"},{"start":9514.844,"end":9538.305,"text":"第三個外匯存體的投放運用那外界有很多的猜測請你們也要注意第四個我覺得跟交通部也非常有關係甚至農委會啊他現在非關稅的貿易障礙哪一些可以去調整哪一些是人家會問的我也希望你們事先去盤整希望台灣我們能夠在很安穩相對"},{"start":9540.207,"end":9544.483,"text":"相對好的情況來挺過這一次的那個川普經濟學謝謝大家"},{"start":9546.786,"end":9571.614,"text":"好 謝謝我們魯明哲委員特別跟大家報告陳樹業委員執行完畢我們就處理我們的臨時提案陳樹業委員執行完畢我們就進行處理臨時提案那現在接下來我們何新淳委員執行"},{"start":9577.042,"end":9577.944,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我們是不是先請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":9589.342,"end":9612.95,"text":"我想剛剛盧偉宇在講川普經濟學宣布美國高關稅世界大地震台灣當然也是震得不小但是我們對行政院非常有信心因為各界對談判我想行政院在最快的速度由副院長鄭麗君來領軍"},{"start":9615.411,"end":9635.661,"text":"一直在盤點我相信部長也有被盤點到吧你要不要說一下在你交通部的部分剛剛其實有好多位委員在提到不管是有關車的問題還有非關稅貿易障礙的問題在你交通部的部分行政院請你盤點的有哪些"},{"start":9636.141,"end":9662.241,"text":"報告委員其實細節當然不能講啦有談判的代表他們去原則上是針對這個汽車的這個非關稅的貿易障礙的部分我們其實部內也有盤點過那跟行政院那邊也有盤點過那大家已經有對好了對美談判的大概會怎麼說會有幾套劇本對幾套劇本其實也都有啦所以所有的非關稅貿易障礙只要跟交通部相關的我們其實都有盤點過都已經盤點過對都有盤點過那一項一項的都有去評估了"},{"start":9665.103,"end":9681.861,"text":"就是所謂的未來談判的過程或是談判後不管是對這個國內的影響或者是對於在這個談判過程裡面我們如何能夠獲得台灣人民整體最大的利益為原則"},{"start":9682.762,"end":9701.393,"text":"是沒有錯而且還能夠安然的度過這個難關其實這件事從川普的這個他的關稅的政策出來之後我們就開始在盤點那也開始跟這個行政院那邊大家都有一個默契那也有開過會那所有的細節也都對過了所以這個部分跟委員報告請大家放心"},{"start":9701.773,"end":9718.32,"text":"請大家放心那我們對你有信心我們對行政院有信心我們的執政團隊有信心但是接下來我要請你再盤點一件事情這個禮拜呢經濟委員會有去台中考察那考察當然是關心這個美國高關稅政策裡面對台中的產業的影響"},{"start":9719.62,"end":9733.877,"text":"那台中的產業是重中之重你也知道因為你來自台中嘛那很多都是以外銷出口為導向的一個傳統基礎工業那當然就有工協會的理事長在提出提醒"},{"start":9735.158,"end":9749.453,"text":"我們現在這個從宣布32%到降為10%但是有90天的一個關鍵的一個觀察期那這90天裡面現在從川普一宣布之後我們產業界的"},{"start":9750.774,"end":9765.6,"text":"非常擔心頭痛到暫緩90天現在的反而是雖然鬆了一口氣但是擔心的是90天以後怎麼辦那90天的這個關鍵期裡面現在又發生一件事情"},{"start":9766.576,"end":9784.55,"text":"出貨趕快要出我如果不敢在這90天出我未來不知道面對什麼狀況可能會好或是可能會更不好所以呢這90天現在我們的台中的產業界代表告訴我我們交通部可不可以幫幫忙幫什麼忙船"},{"start":9787.03,"end":9804.9,"text":"倉位還有呢這個港口的相關的可以協助產業的部分那部長你說你開過會了那這個部分有沒有盤點報告委員這個部分我們也都有盤點那我上個禮拜我就說這個變化很快但幅度不大"},{"start":9805.56,"end":9832.816,"text":"上個禮拜我來這邊備詢的時候那個時候我是說當時是還32%的時候我說大概降了5%我們整個倉位的數量有人退運了嘛所以降了差不多5%那到了這個禮拜回復到原本水準以外再增加了5%也就是說現在倉位大概是90%到95%左右啦那目前都還有空位這個部分我們隨時都在盤點隨時掌握情況對沒有錯數字都在掌握那另外其實委員你也跟我提醒過好幾次"},{"start":9833.536,"end":9861.886,"text":"所以我們這個呃 航港局這邊其實禮拜18號我們18號禮拜五就會開一個平穩小組的會議隨時盤點除了數量之外那傳奇餐位之外還有就是它的價格我們也希望能夠平穩重點是價格對 所以這個部分我們18號就會開這個平穩的這個小組來討論這件事所以你現在航港局在官網設置一個急用需求的調查表是那目前有出口業者填報嗎"},{"start":9862.626,"end":9882.98,"text":"報告委員目前沒有目前沒有我們每天都會關注有在關注那你認為沒有的原因是在剛剛部長所講的盤點出來我們現在還有餘裕所以目前還有餘裕還有餘裕所以我希望啦在你4月18號的這個小組會議就是下面下一頁"},{"start":9883.76,"end":9900.294,"text":"我們要先做好準備因為剛剛部長講的現在看起來好像我們可以安然度過但是呢90天之後不知道那再扣除可能在海上或在海上要30天所以90天扣掉30天可能是60天我們現在中部的產業界不斷地在"},{"start":9902.656,"end":9917.088,"text":"趕貨 趕出貨 那業者說能不能上船 對不起能不能上得了這個貨船 是一個非常大的一個挑戰所以最重要是價格"},{"start":9917.868,"end":9941.598,"text":"最重要是價格那所以這個國際海運的運輸的平穩的工作小組這個會議4月18號要開那有召集哪些人來開經出口的商業同業公會還有各類別的這個同業公會產業公會那另外就是我們三大國籍的行商還有我們經濟部農業部相關的部會都有參與"},{"start":9942.798,"end":9970.434,"text":"業者 業者代表產業界呢產業界就是剛剛報告的包括工具機的這個同業工會 機械同業工會還有進出口的三個同業工會所以產業界代表都有邀請 更大面向的有代表來參加啦工協會的代表那再來還有就是這個航運啊 出口業者啦 進出口工會等等啦這個一定都要在裡面好不好那4月18號結果如何也讓我們交通委員會委員知道一下那接下來"},{"start":9971.455,"end":9993.816,"text":"台中除了產業再來就是交通跟觀光那上次我們去豐原考察部長也到現場所以我們去考察的時候是說豐原是北台中的一個最重要的一個交通樞紐也是一個轉成的一個中心那每年大概有600萬的人次上下車那我們現在只有兩個班"},{"start":9995.578,"end":10016.84,"text":"應該是說往返四個班次去兩班回來兩班直達車現場考察的時候部長有承諾說願意來調整希望能夠增加增加不僅僅是增加直達的包括半直達的那部長你打算怎麼調整"},{"start":10018.358,"end":10039.749,"text":"這個部分應該台鐵公司已經有做調整我們現在目前剛提到他平常日大概有兩個列次那現在我們要增加再增加一倍變成這個六個列次再增加兩個列次啦所以變成會變成六個列次那五六日尖峰會從六列變成八列"},{"start":10040.749,"end":10050.783,"text":"所以這樣我們這樣算下啦每一週我們大概從本來的32列次改點以後大概6月26會改點大概會變成48個列次那請問一下什麼時候開始"},{"start":10052.22,"end":10072.185,"text":"6月26號會整個班表改點那6月26號就開始6月26號就開始那我們可以試狀況未來如果可以增加也可以再增加嗎我們再觀察譬如說半年或者是明年再來看看如果真的需求量大的話是不是可以再增加可以再滾動試檢討好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":10077.278,"end":10098.384,"text":"謝謝我們何欣淳委員接下來我們陳樹業委員執行謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":10111.122,"end":10115.885,"text":"今天委員會主題是關心美國客徵對等關稅對我們國內交通公司部門的衝擊剛剛很多委員都關心了"},{"start":10125.891,"end":10142.916,"text":"這個川普總統美國總統川普的這個關稅風暴確實造成全球震盪那對我們台灣的這個整個很多的面向產業啦交通運輸也有很大的一個衝擊那我想就是交通運輸在我們交通部應該就是運輸的方面那應該就是海運空運的衝擊比較大"},{"start":10148.118,"end":10169.33,"text":"海運的部分剛才我們何委員也詢問很多那我想在這個部分大家比較關心的可能就是這個海運就是貨櫃的一個問題那這部分大家也擔心說是不是會重演這個COVID-19時期的這個塞港的這樣子或者是搶不到櫃的狀況那這部分交通部應該都沒問題"},{"start":10171.591,"end":10196.127,"text":"報告委員目前櫃位的部分艙位的部分都還有餘裕另外其實更關鍵的剛剛委員有提到塞港的問題我們也會擔心說台灣會不會發生這樣的狀況港澳公司我所知道他們已經都盤點一些空地如果到時候貨櫃有大量需要囤的話我們也會挪出地方第二個就是說針對因為現在很多的廠商希望快速能夠出口"},{"start":10196.827,"end":10223.872,"text":"所以整個效率上面可能港公司這邊也應該都有做準備讓效率提高讓他貨一進來馬上可以上得了船趕快出去那這個部分是不是有請林董事長我想就不用說明了因為很多委員都詢問過了我想大家很關心那相信就是我們也是希望就是說交通部這邊對於一些過去的一些經驗然後我們可以預先做一些規劃跟就是做一些事先的一個預防這樣子"},{"start":10224.492,"end":10245.138,"text":"我們盡量把我們那個行政程序縮短好 謝謝那本席接下來要關心的就是這個交通安全的問題還是回歸到這個交通安全的一個議題就是因為交通安全真的很重要那我們看到就是有關這個數字的統計有關就是到案數字的統計"},{"start":10246.358,"end":10274.072,"text":"當然就是說以113年我們事故的總件數還有事故死傷的人數都有下降了那當然就是說這個下降就是也要感謝我們不管是中央或地方或者是各種手段的一個努力那所以我們知道就是說交通安全我們要就是提高這個交通安全最主要就是四大面向嘛這個部長你知道啦工程監理教育跟執法"},{"start":10274.492,"end":10296.559,"text":"那我請教一下部長這四大面向你覺得哪一項比較重要報告委員其實都很重要都很重要四個面向都很重要所以四個面向應該要均衡要平均不能特別偏重哪一個面向那其實在基層民眾的感受是覺得這個執法"},{"start":10298.26,"end":10327.462,"text":"好像是比較重就是比較偏重這個執法的面向因為我們現在廣設這個科技執法所以造成很多民眾他們現在就是抱怨年年然後他們就是一直在抱怨說這個好像把民眾當提款機當然我們的目的是希望降低交通事故提高這個這個道安的一個安全可是在這個執法就是事故有減的時候"},{"start":10328.463,"end":10355.374,"text":"民怨也上升了那要如何讓事故減民怨又不上升那個部長報告委員這個像您所列出來這個科技執法這個是警政署他們去設置的啦那警政署其實他們確實是有這個預算在設置這個那他們給我們的數據其實我們看得出來針對這個執法面去加強確實會讓事故率有下降目前看起來的數據是這個樣子"},{"start":10356.835,"end":10369.522,"text":"但是執法的面向其實大部分是不在交通部但我們也會跟執行的比如說地方政府比如說警政單位我們會跟他們溝通一個平衡性這個部分平衡性我們再來跟他們溝通"},{"start":10370.45,"end":10386.657,"text":"是好我想就是說當然有一些我們交通安全就是涉及到很多的單位所以也希望你們就是要橫向的一個聯繫當然就是說執法部分是警政署那我們希望交通部這邊應該也要跟他們一起配合"},{"start":10387.537,"end":10406.959,"text":"那另外就是說因為四個面向都是一樣的重要那所以在工程設計的部分也非常的一個重要還有監理等等那就就這個交通這個工程的部分就是道路的交通的標線標誌的設置這個是非常的一個重要的"},{"start":10407.119,"end":10429.782,"text":"所以我們對這個交通的標線標誌的一個劃設或者是改善都是希望能夠提高這個交通安全可是目前就是說我們在地方很多民眾在陳情反應就是說目前像我的選區內田尾永進這邊的台一線一直在進行這個就是標線的一個"},{"start":10431.384,"end":10448.644,"text":"變動我不曉得是改善改善是要更好可是我們發現不曉得有沒有更好因為也是民怨就是說以目前看到這個入口啊你看到這個左邊這個邊線跟安全島是不是有個比較寬的一個距離是"},{"start":10449.625,"end":10476.485,"text":"然後右邊的話右邊這是由北往南的一個車道就沒有就是那個黃色的邊線是很緊接著緊鄰著那個安全島的那以左邊這一個車道的話是田尾往元寧的方向是來往北那他們這邊現在是在等這個紅綠燈那如果說像這一部第一部車子那個如果說他往"},{"start":10477.546,"end":10502.317,"text":"中間偏一點他的車子的輪子如果壓到黃線的話這樣有沒有違規會不會被開罰這個部分委員您剛剛說如果是壓到邊線的話對就是說現在已第一部車子他現在是停這樣子是在線內那他如果是往這個安全島的方向靠的話他的車輪一定是壓到那個黃線這樣有沒有違規有沒有會不會被罰款"},{"start":10505.846,"end":10521.434,"text":"這個應該沒有違規吧這個應該沒有違規吧那個誰要回答跟我們報告一下因為這個標籤的部分有分為禁制跟這個指示的部分這個標籤看起來應該是屬於這個指示的標誌"},{"start":10531.559,"end":10542.455,"text":"那這個原則上就是說處罰條例單條並沒有這樣子的規定那大概通用的部分大概只有一條這個位移標誌標線這等的部分但是看起來這個應該沒有相關這個有這個滑緩的一個問題"},{"start":10547.282,"end":10566.561,"text":"可是目前我們就看到有民眾在地方的這個社群反映說他在這個這樣子的一個路口因為他的車子的輪子有去就是越過線結果他收到罰單了那這個是一個問題那主席不好意思因為我讓我把這個議題講完"},{"start":10568.964,"end":10590.124,"text":"這邊就是說目前這個入口還有一個問題就是說在我們公路總局做這樣子的變動之後本來這一個入口目前左邊這個車道是南往北的方向本來它左轉是有左轉燈的號誌的可是目前被你們改成剩下三個號誌所以它要左轉的時候"},{"start":10591.485,"end":10606.776,"text":"左轉的時候就非常的危險因為沒有左轉的耗制他有的車輛不熟悉他可能就是在綠燈的時候他就是要趁沒有車的時候左轉就是讓你看一個影片大概是這種狀況放一下"},{"start":10610.088,"end":10623.925,"text":"這個是南往北那這一部車它現在要左轉可是它的這個方向是沒有左轉號誌的所以它是必須趁著就是南下的車到沒有車的時候它才左轉"},{"start":10624.966,"end":10644.126,"text":"可是這樣子的話他的視線如果被對向車道阻擋的話這樣子真的是非常的危險我們一直在反映報告委員這個路口我們特別再去看一下我請公路局再去看一下看了好幾次了看要怎麼改善市長你再幫我特別去關注一下"},{"start":10644.947,"end":10660.208,"text":"現在看到這個號誌燈四個號誌燈是北往南的一個方向還是維持四個燈還是一樣有左轉燈可是南往北就被取消掉了剩下三個燈那目前就是"},{"start":10661.489,"end":10682.098,"text":"經過我們反應之後公務局的做法是說在紅燈之後紅燈之後的綠燈的話對向車子他會在晚15秒讓這個南往北的車子可以有15秒可以左轉可是很多外地車或者是過路車他根本不知道有這個這樣子的一個就是"},{"start":10682.578,"end":10699.337,"text":"晚開這樣子的一個設計所以就會造成像剛剛那部車這樣他就是趁著綠燈的時候對象沒有車他趕快搶快可是這樣子是非常危險的所以我是覺得說我不曉得你們台一線這樣子的一個變動到底是依據什麼"},{"start":10700.818,"end":10723.085,"text":"規定或者以什麼基準來做這樣子的一個變動啦只是我覺得說這樣子的一個改變讓我們在地人在這邊出入的民眾都覺得顯像還生所以我是覺得說這個部分就是屬於工程面所以包括剛剛的那個寬度的問題如果說他壓線了越線了就是會被開單這個就是我們"},{"start":10724.145,"end":10749.404,"text":"我們的問題嘛引誘民眾違規了然後另外這個部分的改善是不是有更安全我覺得這個你們都要再去做進一步的一個了解啦那因為當初我們去反映的時候公務局給我們的回覆是說因為會再做一個什麼偏心式的一個左轉的一個改善可是我看出也沒有看到有這樣子的一個改善那我們趕快來改善好謝謝請局長追蹤謝謝"},{"start":10750.365,"end":10751.788,"text":"謝謝陳樹業委員來現在我們處理臨時提案請議事人員一併先讀第一案"},{"start":10763.204,"end":10779.872,"text":"臨時提案一 由於美國政府於日前10日時宣布對等關稅政策暫緩實施90日 原影響企業紛紛搶出貨以減少該關稅衝擊 建請交通部及航港局籌組國際海運運輸平穩小組會議瞭解進出口商需求協調 航商穩定進出順暢 提案人委員蔡啟昌等"},{"start":10790.01,"end":10812.217,"text":"臨時提案二鑒於長榮海運毒品走私案經查核有港務公司通行證管自鬆散與港港局資訊不對稱原請海巡署警政署各港港警總隊一個月內提出比照民航局安檢規格之有效安全檢查"},{"start":10812.839,"end":10828.36,"text":"措施SOP港務公司者提出改善通行證申請計管理辦法維護我國對外貿易窗口維持社會秩序有效防止毒品走失提案人 委員魯明哲 廖先祥等"},{"start":10829.261,"end":10857.791,"text":"民事提案三 因應美國於4月10日宣布暫緩課徵全球對等關稅為維持國際海運運輸平穩有序進行特請交通部航港局比照疫情特殊時期計數召開國際海運運輸平穩工作小組會議掌握出口需求及艙位供給情形並協調國際航商市需要增加航班艙位提案人委員何新泉等"},{"start":10859.638,"end":10884.227,"text":"臨時提案四台鐵豐原站為中部地區鐵道運輸重要據點建請台鐵公司調整並增加往返豐原台北至直達半次並優化豐原站及周昭後里麗林及潭子等車站之交通銜接以提供旅客多元便利之交通選擇提案人委員何新泉等"},{"start":10886.156,"end":10908.22,"text":"臨時提案五有建立台中舊山線為我國重要鐵道文化及觀光資產原請台鐵公司加速推動相關作業亦請交通部觀光署台鐵公司與地方政府通力合作串聯周遭景點整合三線觀光廊道提升整體觀光發展及品質提案人委員何新泉等宣布完畢"},{"start":10909.226,"end":10929.406,"text":"好 那因為時間的關係 提案啊 顏值都已經在書面所以就不以再提案說明那我請問第一案行政單位有無意見報告周圍 行政單位遵照辦理好遵照辦理 那我們就照案通過來 第二案"},{"start":10930.711,"end":10954.347,"text":"立案行政單位是 報告召委那這個部分有跟黃委員辦公室有報告說明溝通這個文字著作修正那是不是允許我宣讀一下跟委員報告著作修正的文字好 文字修正一點是 謝謝召委那麻煩各位看到這個倒數第五行開始"},{"start":10955.248,"end":10967.022,"text":"那原請海巡署這邊的文字呢著作修正為原請交通部會同海巡署移民署財政部關稅署關務署"},{"start":10971.032,"end":10988.746,"text":"2個月內提出比照民航局安檢規格之有效安全檢查措施SOP港務公司航港局則提出改善通行證申請及使用須知警政署及港警總隊提出相關強化指引"},{"start":10990.227,"end":11015.526,"text":"維護我國對外貿易窗口維持社會秩序有效防治毒品走私是否有當進行公決這個文字是有跟黃委員辦公室有協調有獲得共識好那個盧委員盧秉哲委員同意嗎好那同意的話我們就修正後照案通過好不好來接下來第三案"},{"start":11016.59,"end":11033.522,"text":"行政機關有沒有意見報告召委行政機關遵照辦理好那我們就通過那第第四案行政機關有沒有有沒有意見報告召委行政機關沒有意見遵照辦理好遵照辦理那我們就召案通過來第五案"},{"start":11035.848,"end":11059.879,"text":"報告抓委一樣行政機關遵照辦理好遵照辦理那我們就照案通過好跟各位報告以上對於臨時提案5案就依照行政機關跟我們提案委員之意見各方的意見我們就有些是修正通過那我們臨時提案5案處理完畢謝謝大家來接下來我們就請"},{"start":11062.36,"end":11071.204,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢如有委員對上述的提名要補提名列入記錄並刊登公報那現在繼續請黃建豪委員執行"},{"start":11082.406,"end":11092.592,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請那個經濟部的政事何進昌次長跟經貿談判辦公室的副談判代表嚴副代表好來嚴副代表他們也知道我們在幹什麼"},{"start":11103.249,"end":11121.649,"text":"市長好市長我想現在進入這個談判階段很多數據當然我們希望說能夠一致那我想這樣子對於產業來講也好還是對於我國對外談判的這個數字來講會比較明確啦我今天在這個報告裡面想要跟你們就交一個事情就是說在經濟部提供的報告裡面"},{"start":11123.1,"end":11142.39,"text":"在第二頁的提到說我國的車輛產業就業人數約有8.3萬人但是我們如果參照媒體報導4月9號的時候車輛工會也提到說其實整個這個車輛影響的上下游產業有30萬人就業人口2500家廠商那在同份的報告裡面的第二頁的同份報告裡面也提到說"},{"start":11143.71,"end":11159.461,"text":"車輛工會也呼籲政府要正式汽車產業列上下減30萬就業人口我想要先就這個數字來跟次長討論一下到底我國這個車輛產業到底有多少人會受到產業上會受到影響到底是8.3萬人還是30萬人我想這落差也蠻大的可不可以說明一下"},{"start":11159.901,"end":11165.883,"text":"跟委員報告這個如果單就車輛產業的話是8.3萬那因為整個車輛產業的那個產業的很長非常長所以公衛才會有統計30萬的這個就業人口的這樣的一個數據出現那所以就這一方面的這些統計數據我想我們這個主計總署那邊基本上我們會就他的行業的內容我們會有一個官方的一個數字出來"},{"start":11187.108,"end":11197.797,"text":"我想問一下談判辦公室如果在這種情況下面到底你們在計算評估對國內產業或對國內就業人口衝擊的時候你們是用所謂8.3萬來算還是用30萬來算"},{"start":11202.007,"end":11230.166,"text":"我們的影響評估基本上都是由我們的產業主管機關來負責盤點那我們只是希望把它轉換成對美說明的一個相關的論述好 謝謝因為我想這個事情其實因為大家民眾的期待跟廠商的這個說法是不太一樣因為民眾當然期待說會因為這一次的事件可能關稅能夠降低降低之後可能車價可以下降但是同時產業也擔心說如果因為整車的這個關稅降低之後"},{"start":11230.586,"end":11245.343,"text":"對於國內這些製造業國內車輛製造業的這個相關人口不管是你們今天提到的8.3萬還是車輛工會的30萬大家都覺得會受到衝擊所以今天要問的說政府到底去認定這件事情假設假設因為今天"},{"start":11246.264,"end":11272.434,"text":"談判結果還沒出來嘛可是我們到底在談車輛談這個整車進口也好還是談我們車輛製造業也好這個事情去談判的時候政府要不管你後續假設真的有時候要衝擊因為你看到這個人口8.3後30萬人那我們出口美國的這個產值是35.58億美元這是你們的數據那整個產業鏈有5000多億的這個金額那這個產業鏈到底有多少人受到衝擊如果政府這邊的數字是不一致的那我不知道"},{"start":11273.397,"end":11286.153,"text":"對於民心大家會覺得很不安心我想確定到底你們在計算的時候是用多少人來算如果談到是用主管機關單位的算法那我想問經濟部到底是多少人你們會有多少人遭衝擊"},{"start":11287.302,"end":11299.248,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們這個報告裡面也講得很清楚我們是按照行政院主計總出113年的統計所以我們引用的數據8.3萬人他是從政府的官方的數據來這個出現這樣的一個數據"},{"start":11303.51,"end":11325.18,"text":"好那我知道了這樣我想這後續的車輛公會趕快再找你們了好那回到這個一樣回到關稅的問題啊那這個部分因為我想車輛他是排除在這個對等的32%裡面嗎包含說現在不管是暫緩90天的部分他是本來就是適用所謂的這個25%的部分嗎那我想問一下經濟部也好或是OTM也好你們有評估過說這個"},{"start":11327.571,"end":11355.049,"text":"目前是因為台灣的這個稅率是17.5的部分那如果按照談判的過程裡面因為總統說要從這個比照美加盟協定來談美加盟協定當然在美國或在加拿大墨西哥出產的這個車輛零組件它是排除試用嘛不用說試用25%當然相對的他們在進口美國車的稅率也是有相對的付出那我們要問的是說今天是17.5那你們有沒有算過說如果從17.5假設往下談判"},{"start":11357.611,"end":11386.214,"text":"多少的稅率會對我國的產業或對多少居委人口產生衝擊這個東西有沒有計算過其實我們也都有算過啦只是說這個這個內容其實我們也不宜在這邊做做討論那我想我們這個談判辦公室那邊我們也給足了一些資訊那讓這個談判代表們跟美國在談判的時候他可以就對我們產業的衝擊面的部分他會做整體的考量好 市長"},{"start":11386.934,"end":11406.12,"text":"那最後問一個問題就是說其實到目前來講因為如果如你們的報告所說如果有衝擊到8.3萬的就業人口那成良公會當然是說30萬啦在這樣的情形下面我們目前來講這個車關稅 汽車關稅 整車進口的降價的空間是存在的嗎還是不太可能坦白說"},{"start":11408.037,"end":11417.41,"text":"呃這個我想還是要看談判的結果再來做做這個說明好沒關係市長謝謝市長跟我們副代表請回喔那我們現在請交通部陳部長部長"},{"start":11427.008,"end":11442.218,"text":"很好來部長好部長我們針對內政這個就沒有跟你談關稅了這個計程車的部分我想部長應該很清楚知道到底要怎麼樣能夠成為計程車司機過去當然計程車是一個比較這個特取行業有所謂的權利金跟這個靠好的問題"},{"start":11443.058,"end":11458.351,"text":"那自從這個多元計程車加入之後我想我們也收到很多陳情就是說其實各車行在喊價因為這個他們要投入這個這個這個行業裡面他需要有這個牌嘛他們需要有這個營業執照那也需要靠行所以現在的牌價"},{"start":11460.192,"end":11474.669,"text":"車牌使用金從8到12萬開始喊那這個問題我想從去年就在發酵我想報紙上也有一些報導那過去有講說要請可能這個各六都的交通局也好或是公路局來了解跟協調我想問一下因為"},{"start":11475.31,"end":11493.568,"text":"其實四大車行裡面包括容車等等容車只要600塊那其他的民間的廠商民間的民營的這個車行現狀來講很多靠這個維生的這個小黃司機或是多元汽車司機他們會去反映說這個排價好像沒有一個公平的標準是任由車行去喊價的"},{"start":11494.409,"end":11522.101,"text":"那我想問一下到底目前為止過去邀請六都交通局跟公路局去深入了解的狀況目前狀況是怎麼樣有沒有可能交通部去訂定一個全國一致的範圍的費用應該跟各縣市都有保持聯繫那目前針對這個有漲價的這個靠航費的狀況目前只有兩個縣市現在有看到的是基隆市跟新竹縣那從每個月1200條漲到1500那其他的14個縣市目前的靠航費的部分是沒有做調漲"},{"start":11523.562,"end":11536.95,"text":"那所以這個部分我們也有收集說駕駛人有沒有這樣子的反應到目前為止很像也沒有收到巧木林利收費的民意收費的這個行為那個車牌使用金 靠網費另外一回事有兩個錢喔靠網費當然是你們有一個這樣的價格現在問題是車牌使用金就是營業車牌這件事情你們怎麼去管這件事情"},{"start":11547.33,"end":11561.387,"text":"這個部分跟我們報告一下現在計程車這個號牌的部分大概分三類那一類是優良駕駛人個人車牌的部分那另外一個部分包括這個龍車那個是屬於這個這個合作社的部分那另外一個部分的話大概就是一般計程車行"},{"start":11562.168,"end":11581.156,"text":"那就是本身擁有這個什麼車耳的部分那車耳的這個部分的話確實可能有一些就是說地方上面不同這個數量上面的一個這個有這樣子的情況那這個部分的話在這個應該是在100這個就是那時候多元計程車要開放的時候那有一個跨地"},{"start":11581.616,"end":11595.873,"text":"就是說譬如說我舉個例子說台中地區如果本身的相關車額的部分如果說不夠的話那基本上是可以跨區域到新北到台北這邊來這個就是說公會同意的話就可以調這個相關的一個這個車額"},{"start":11598.055,"end":11615.55,"text":"那至於說剛剛你所提到的部分就是說那這些相關車額的一個這個排費的這個部分的話確實是有一些這個差異那這個部分的話我們再請這個六都這個我想主要問題還是在六都這邊我們再請這個六都"},{"start":11616.711,"end":11637.658,"text":"對於這個雙方的一個部分再來了解比較細部的情況那如果說有需要這個大家來做一個這個協調這個什麼協商的部分的話這個部分我們也會跟六都來這個就是說合作讓這個計程車入行的一個這個相關負擔能夠這個就是說盡量的一個降低以上"},{"start":11638.118,"end":11660.385,"text":"我要釐清就其實這兩部分一個是靠行費靠行費當然你們現在有在管制這個OK這沒問題現在問題是說取得營業小車車牌這部分掛牌費這掛牌費這個權利是在交通部手上還是在各車廂手上這部分我覺得是你們是不是要把它收回來還是要怎麼樣去跟業者之間去協調不要說好像就放出去那這個價格大家去喊"},{"start":11660.925,"end":11673.555,"text":"那這我想對於很多想需要靠這件事情為生的他光是這件事情他就很麻煩還有一個問題現實對不起主席我再最後一分鐘講一下現狀是怎麼樣就是他今年初現在A車行"},{"start":11674.668,"end":11697.902,"text":"談好的權利金他掛牌OK了但是結果A車行後來經營不善或怎麼樣他賣給B車行B車行會去跟這個司機再收一次權利金他會說那前面是你跟A談的跟我B沒關係所以這個亂象這個管理的部分我想對於交通部來講這個是影響到很多基層民眾的生計我們希望交通部能夠確實的管理這個部分這邊我再補充一點"},{"start":11698.542,"end":11723.349,"text":"如果是這樣子的情況的話因為自備車輛成語經營基本上跟車廠都要簽契約然後這個契約基本上是經過當地公共會雙方這個會商同意之後那如果有這樣子的情況的話我們請這個交通局特別來做這個了解因為這個東西基本上已經違反這樣子的一個這個規定那一規定都可以來做查處好謝謝喔那我們請就是你們把了解狀況了解完之後再跟我們委員會來說明好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":11726.323,"end":11745.212,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員的執行特別跟各位委員做說明跟報告因為今天我們登記執行委員非常眾多所以拜託各位委員就是控制時間依照我們的時間接下來我們陳雪生委員我大哥來執行謝謝召委你不是送頭我來嗎"},{"start":11753.413,"end":11772.711,"text":"剛才都沒講是不是請航空警察局廖局長廖局長我為什麼找廖局長你知道嗎?他是我民國78年,我在士林分局服務,他是我的同事"},{"start":11775.373,"end":11798.887,"text":"廖長你到院到現在是從警察署主任秘書調過來是你到航空警察局服務有沒有什麼困難包圍沒有困難沒有?各位委員都非常支持,謝謝恭喜你謝謝我也拜託我們民航局何局長還有機場公司、董事長能夠多關照有什麼事情盡量配合協調好不好是你請回沒事謝謝委員"},{"start":11806.583,"end":11831.2,"text":"是不是請我們交通部陳部長還有談判的副總代表閻小姐副總還有副代表,因為時間的關係我們現在川普在大刀關稅,砍向世界"},{"start":11835.88,"end":11857.323,"text":"總出口大概是4750億美元,我們台灣那美國的部分有1113然後進口是464億美元,出超大概739億副代表你有沒有注意到?我們只注意到美國,有沒有注意到大陸?"},{"start":11859.281,"end":11887.522,"text":"大陸的出口是1500,我們對他出口是1506億美元進口是806億美元,出超700億跟美國相距不遠美國的大刀子像我們的時候你要注意到尤其現在台灣在反中等等跟美親近是好事不是壞事但是要注意到我們在大陸的貿易我們等於他們也是用最惠國待遇給我們"},{"start":11888.874,"end":11914.843,"text":"所以你不要觸怒了中共這一點要小心我女婿是美國人回來跟我聊天,聊到我說你對川普這個人印象怎麼樣他說還不錯,我說什麼還不錯我就有點生氣了他說你曉得嗎,川普最大的優點就是善變還有說謊他用善變跟說謊"},{"start":11916.448,"end":11945.495,"text":"你看看全世界砍過去以後他穩賺不賠韓國瑜院長講說貨出去錢進來人進來錢進來他不是他今天嘴巴一喊所有的股票全部都漲價了所以你在談判的時候你注意到你在談判小組裡面也要分析一下大陸的反應尤其也很重要所以我想好你請回沒事部長"},{"start":11948.385,"end":11971.51,"text":"小山通現在大概只有來了一千多個人、兩千個人現在我再請問你一次我們希望大陸的鄉親到馬祖金門或是到台灣來觀光,歡迎還是不歡迎?沒有政治前提之下都歡迎為什麼有一些媒體反對,很像大陸人來對我們沒安好心?"},{"start":11972.984,"end":11987.223,"text":"我們在官方的立場是歡迎他們來沒有政治前提之下所以我在上一次質詢的時候曾經問到部長跟各部會講少一點刁難,少一點為難到金門馬祖全部那個部隊也沒幾個人"},{"start":11989.349,"end":12018.104,"text":"用漁船就上來了,我不是說自己給自己漏氣啦我沒有自己給自己漏氣這一方面是不是請部長多跟他們講一下嘛是不是你不要把老共講得那麼糟糕嘛是不是一直反中現在金門馬祖我們很可憐你看陳玉珍委員講的自貿區自貿港口台灣很多啊是不是,台中、高雄、基隆、花蓮全部都是啊"},{"start":12020.056,"end":12035.869,"text":"金門那個自保區港口馬上就變成洗產地,那台灣那邊不是洗產地嗎?所以我們在觀念上,我跟你做個溝通好不好?是再跟你談一下那個觀光的部分"},{"start":12037.563,"end":12064.23,"text":"是不是請鄒書長上來,再加強一下好不好?我們齊碧那邊你看有很多廁所,什麼髒的臭的不得了,尤其五月份我們觀光地來了,請幫忙一下請幫忙一下,那邊再加強一下,請風景管理處幫忙一下好不好?好,那我想鄒書長你請回好不好?是不是請何樹斌局長?"},{"start":12067.282,"end":12093.448,"text":"這邊要談機場改建,馬祖飛高雄航線馬祖飛高雄航線,謝謝部長的幫忙,成全我們這一個航線非常不容易在交通部施壓、民航局施壓、華信我也謝謝我們中華航空公司總經理、高董事長"},{"start":12097.488,"end":12105.539,"text":"謝謝啦但是我們馬祖老闆質疑為什麼只飛一班何局長為什麼只飛一班能不能說明一下"},{"start":12108.207,"end":12127.286,"text":"我想高雄南竿其實歷經了很長久的一段的經過那這個航線因為早期來講他當然有他的過去的歷史那現在重新飛航一週一班我們想是從之前有包機那我們也培養了一段時間那現在要轉成定班的話那他就要有固定的旅客人數"},{"start":12127.987,"end":12152.298,"text":"所以我們就華信這邊就規劃了每週先用一班而且他是排在週五那週五跟週六日是可以串起來所以而且基本上在南竿這邊也有台北南竿的航線所以我想這樣整體來看我們先用每週一班來飛然後培養客源到一個程度我們再看市場狀況現在也就是說客流量不太穩定嘛對沒錯當然中華航空公司的子公司華信啊"},{"start":12153.078,"end":12173.279,"text":"他是一個股份有限公司,他的財務是獨立自主的債商延商嘛,他沒有錢賺我想不要說部長,院長你去給他施壓也沒有用啊是不是,他的股東會同意嗎?不會同意嘛所以先非一般,因為我也跟高董事長也談過這個事情"},{"start":12174.619,"end":12198.046,"text":"他非常非常的為難,而且在票價部分我知道這次民航局把他壓低了不過如果流量正常的話,希望你們能夠賺到錢我們希望你這個做生意就是要賺錢嘛是不是沙流生意有人做,Cribben生意沒人做啊所以高董這邊您看看好不好如果一般我們在客流量非常穩定非常好這個最加費的誰?是我們國軍的"},{"start":12199.706,"end":12213.155,"text":"我們這些防衛部的人員,這阿兵叫他們說回家的路太遠了好不容易縣長、議長我拜訪了華信拜訪了很多次然後那時候高董事長也是華信的董事長"},{"start":12214.417,"end":12237.134,"text":"郭東很多次,他在謝董事長一直在逼他,沒辦法的情況之下,所以這個飛機飛了所以我希望能夠順利成功,希望客人量夠的話,能夠再多一班好不好尤其你飛機可以的話,好謝謝高董事長你請回那何警長這邊還有"},{"start":12238.76,"end":12256.932,"text":"上一次我問你北竿機場的停車場滾動式檢討,你一個月現在開始啟動滾動式檢討了沒有,請說明有關北竿機場的停車的使用情形,我們現在先收集資料因為他從收費其實也才在三月中才開始"},{"start":12260.894,"end":12288.845,"text":"那所以說基本上現在來講其實時間還不是太長那當然之前委員有說明過就是說鄉親有一些反應希望在這個停車費率等等那當然這個整個我們還是需要收集一段時間的資料是啊我是說不要讓他成為文子館嘛是了解我想對審計部啊我們也可以做一個交代了嘛我知道如果客人量這裡面停車會停車如果收費太低的話審計部會有意見啊我知道"},{"start":12289.707,"end":12313.559,"text":"那這個行政程序我們已經走完了,我是說希望能不能幫忙一下好不好,這個能夠做滾動式檢討這個部分我們會再來滾動檢討好另外,主席你請坐北竿機場興建,我上次問過,北竿機場興建的期程已經啟動了嘛那航站的人員,你們北竿的航空站的人員不會撤吧"},{"start":12315.019,"end":12323.609,"text":"還有利隆,因為航站裡面不航小航班,還有利隆航空公司的人員因為我們現在要希望建議邊建邊飛,是不是這樣?"},{"start":12328.446,"end":12354.249,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們現在這個案子已經跟港公司這邊合作前面的維提、造地等等今年港公司這邊會來進行招標那招標完之後會做細設那細設的時間大概需要兩年多的時間所以真正的施工會落在118年那在這個細設的階段我們也會來評估整個機場的運作因為基本上它還是就是說它在細設要兩年喔"},{"start":12355.81,"end":12381.137,"text":"對今年因為他比較複雜然後連施工一共七年嘛是不是沒有施工是七年施工七年那我們如果邊飛邊建邊飛邊建這個就是那尤其微堤的部分城鄉的部分這些不影響飛行安全的情況之下民航局往這個方向走好不好可行性你們現在要做未雨綢繆的評估好不好"},{"start":12382.199,"end":12408.66,"text":"要謝謝委員啦 之前有多次的提醒在這個部分 那這部分我們會再細說董事長你說明一下好不好 我們港公司董事長跟委員報告一下 目前這個工程我們在準備相關的前置作業那因為這個機場的話 可能危體兆路的話 可能有一些要轉攤要什麼那個要把它做好 免得說到時候做好以後會有呈現的問題所以相關的一些還有呈現的問題嘛"},{"start":12410.1,"end":12411.632,"text":"因為他跑道的鋪面"},{"start":12412.694,"end":12442.234,"text":"我想時間應該兩年足夠了我們中正機場、松山機場,碰面的速度應該很快你盡量朝著一邊飛一邊那個因為有一些有心人士我跟你講馬祖發生兩次空難,我弟弟五口全部罹難前縣長,楊孫生縣長也是另外一次空難裡面降落在海上所以這個機場一定要改建,是不是一定要改建?"},{"start":12443.107,"end":12467.556,"text":"你不要等出了事,出了事再來做就來不及了這已經在做了你看我們全國的機場只有馬祖德兩座機場是個應該算是危險的機場危險的機場,它不是一個編制類的機場所以這個機場勢在必行好不好這個拜託部長還有我們局長、港公司這邊我們來共同努力因為他們講說"},{"start":12470.634,"end":12494.889,"text":"這個機場蓋了以後,有一些人員像消防班有一些人現在大家都希望錢多勢少離家近嘛還要渡海到南竿去上班,非常不方便所以我想借這個機會告訴我們鄉親沒有這個問題當然晚上夜間施工可能會造成一些噪音的問題等等這個我希望在下次交通委員會到馬祖考察的時候已經排定在五月十幾號"},{"start":12496.05,"end":12505.655,"text":"拜託局長,這一些配套你請幕僚人員趕快做出來,我們到那邊一併跟我們鄉親來說明好不好?好,謝謝部長,謝謝我們董事長還有局長,謝謝"},{"start":12509.807,"end":12528.376,"text":"好 謝謝我們陳雪生委員那特別跟各位報告一下如果要方便的話就執行因為我們中午就不休息因為登記委員非常眾多所以沒有辦法休息那現在我們請廖先祥委員來執行"},{"start":12538.544,"end":12543.509,"text":"好謝謝主席喔那一樣我們陳部長陳部長來我們鐵道局楊局長楊局長"},{"start":12549.669,"end":12570.567,"text":"部長好 局長好 這個還是跟兩位先確認一下地方的軌道建設的一些進度啦那當然汐止的軌道建設 我們有三個部分嘛那其中一個部分目前正在由地方政府正在修正計畫就是這個台北市民生段嘛 這個我們就先不提那另外應該有兩個部分在我們的交通部啦應該沒錯 一個是基隆捷運的基本設計另外一個是汐東縣的修正計畫"},{"start":12572.589,"end":12597.66,"text":"那這兩個部分我知道當然行政院對於這個補助軌道建設的比例的部分可能會因為財化法去做一些調整但是這個金額的部分我們先不提啦我們就是先就專業審核的部分我們總之是專業審核了之後那補助的比例之後才是由行政院來定嘛那在專業審核的部分這兩條基隆捷運的基本設計以及這個西隆捷運的修正計畫不曉得我們這邊的審議的進度怎麼樣我是不是請局長好"},{"start":12603.771,"end":12612.969,"text":"跟委員報告基隆捷運的基本設計經過我們跟新北市政府做過兩三輪的溝通現在已經初步有一些梳理大概往程序在進行當中"},{"start":12613.689,"end":12641.197,"text":"是 所以有沒有所以大部分的障礙裁除了對 是的 大部分障礙都排除但是最終經過交通部如果同意的話還是要送到工程會來核定才是最後的這個基本設計核定然後可以進入法保好 那這個東西應該是跟財化法是比較不會有關係是的那我們有沒有預計的時程今年有沒有辦法完成至少我們出交通部有沒有辦法設立一個目標如果說地方政府都有配合我們的一些意見的話"},{"start":12643.281,"end":12661.285,"text":"這個我們盡量來加速來辦理好吧,上半年有機會嗎?繼續努力好啦好啦,那至少就您來看應該是沒有什麼太大的問題啦一直非常關心這個議題,我們會盡量來加速好,那另外一個就是系統捷運的修正計畫嘛它大概從預算規模從300多億到600多億嘛那我們這邊的審核的進度大概怎麼樣?"},{"start":12667.302,"end":12682.798,"text":"這個現在局裡面還在跟新北市政府捷運局做一些溝通因為主要還是涉及到八堵機場的經費分攤我想我們會再跟他們積極來討論所以最大的問題在於八堵機場的經費分攤那其他的部分有沒有意見比較分歧的地方"},{"start":12683.83,"end":12708.161,"text":"或者說地方政府認為應該是要納到共同攤體的部分你們認為不需要會有類似的問題會有類似的好那後續可不可以把一些爭議項目整理一下就是地方政府認為應該是中央地方攤的那我們認為應該是地方政府自籌的好那整理一份那我們需要討論的時候再來討論好的我們再跟委員報告好謝謝局長那接下來部長這個我們請教一下這個可能香港局跟港務公司"},{"start":12710.828,"end":12735.622,"text":"來 葉局長 李董事長不好意思 今天還是要跟三位討論一下就是先前有長榮海運的船員可能跟離職的船員有走私毒品的一個問題當然港務公司 港的問題跟機場一樣因為機場裡面有很多攤位我們港裡面也有很多的單位包括海關 包括警察單位"},{"start":12737.043,"end":12761.52,"text":"整體的架構不是我們就能夠解決的啦那至少我們在發生這個問題之後我們一般大家都會認為說可能航空系統的管理好像感覺起來都會比港務系統來得嚴謹走私的機會比較高那可能會有一些系統性的問題那不曉得根本上有哪些差異到什麼管理上面可能在強度上面有落差那造成這些走私的問題"},{"start":12763.002,"end":12785.089,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所說的沒有錯啦不管是港或者是機場它的這個複雜度其實相對是高的啦尤其是港的部分其實船多人多那公司也不少那前一陣子確實有發生這個長榮海運現任跟離職的三個船員走私大麻毒品的這個事件那這個部分其實航港局也在3月25號有召開會議"},{"start":12787.67,"end":12810.352,"text":"長榮海運也好或者是相關的單位大家一起開會討論啦針對這個改善的方案一定要提出來因為我們現在已經看到問題了嘛那遇到的問題就想辦法去解決讓它以後不要再發生但我們應該是身為一個管理者應該是說我們看到制度上有沒有哪些要調整的地方有沒有我們自己有沒有內部檢討至少我們港港局或者是港務公司如果說有"},{"start":12811.033,"end":12830.383,"text":"我們可以做得更好的話 降低這個型案發生的機會我們要自我檢討哪些部分 可能是未來會去做調整的我請葉局長回答一下報告委員 有關這個成員進出管制的門哨的這個加強管制的做法我很快跟委員報告 我們短期就是必須要由傳東跟傳代"},{"start":12832.324,"end":12857.938,"text":"他在港公司的這個港區通行證的系統他去進行登錄之後登錄這個船員的身份資料之後這個船員才能夠申請他的通行證如果沒有經過船東跟船代的登錄他是不能自行申請以前可以就對了以前他可以自行申請以前可以自行申請那現在就類似有要找一個保證單位是的才能夠進來是的那這個部分已經在4月8號已經開始實行了"},{"start":12860.839,"end":12885.664,"text":"是 所以就是人員進出的管制更加的嚴格這樣是是是好 那還有其他的嗎其他的部分就是登船管理的部分我們現在會加強要求那跟文包我們現在就是依照這個ISPS我們叫國際船舶港口保全的規定我們現在他在登船前必須這個船方必須要列印有個QR code"},{"start":12886.144,"end":12914.148,"text":"那也要把登船的這個人員的名冊要先在我們的QR Code系統要做登錄登船前這個登船人員要掃描QR Code那符合我們登船人員的名冊在名單內他才可以登船是所以這個部分我們也建立了機制後續我們航港局在各航務中心都有加強查核的一個做法這部分我們也還請那這都是針對人員嘛那如果港務公司的部分"},{"start":12916.357,"end":12941.903,"text":"就是包含那個航港局他有開過會所以我們都配合就是船東船大所以我們就是配合航港局的一個政策那另外一個就是我們請那個港警加強來查細那還有就是對我們港所在的相關的航商什麼我們加強宣導我們所有的人員進出會像機場因為我沒有進去過不好意思會進出會像這個機場一樣每個都有人員的X光機的檢查之類的嗎還是目視檢查"},{"start":12945.029,"end":12969.62,"text":"港區 他是木市 都是木市那所以車輛進出可能就是檢查這個有沒有違禁品之類的對 通行證 那就是RFID那實務上為什麼沒有辦法做到像機場這樣子的一個比較嚴格的管制 是量太大了嗎 還是以前他進出的話是人 就是他船員他有那個"},{"start":12970.16,"end":12979.127,"text":"那現在就是我們多一個保障就是船東船大這些遊船先卡位因為其實像我們這個機場會比較單純是因為我們都是人那我們人的進出就跟這個旅客進出一樣嘛就大家檢查那所有的貨物都有X光機的一個檢查那當然就是雙重的檢驗嘛那我們港務公司不然我們港港局或是說港務系統可能也是要"},{"start":12995.519,"end":13019.904,"text":"除了人的進出管制之外可能貨物的進出讓他看是量能不足的部分可能需要海關那邊增加檢查量能之類等等的我都希望說我們當然發生事情的時候大家第一個部分可能會想到我們交通部但是需要其他單位配合的部分我們也必須要多一跨機關的來請求其他機關的一個協助這樣子好不好希望避免類似的案件再發生謝謝部長 謝謝各位訪問 謝謝"},{"start":13022.725,"end":13047.212,"text":"好 謝謝我們廖先祥委員接下來我們請蔡其昌副院長執行謝謝主席 這個時間很有限請陳部長跟高鐵公司鄭董事長好 高鐵鄭董"},{"start":13053.17,"end":13078.483,"text":"董事長好這個高鐵204這個班次發生了在板橋站過站應該是說不能說沒有停應該是停下來沒開門就開走了那這個事情我不知道大家怎麼看待在本席來看我覺得這個是一個"},{"start":13081.151,"end":13105.263,"text":"當然你們已經做了一些處置包括做了一些處分但本席對這個事情的看法是我們要徹底把這個案例拿出來檢討然後並提出到底它發生了什麼事情那該如何來改進部長如果你不是了解那個詳細可以請鄭董事長回答沒有關係我想請教一下那一天停車大概幾秒鐘"},{"start":13108.464,"end":13135.554,"text":"他停車大概只有20幾秒那通常20幾秒的門為什麼沒有打開基本上他要停下來以後他這個駕駛他那時候他還在還在猶豫這個是不是要停下來還是說是一個通過站因為在之前他一個經驗他大概一個一兩個月裡面他在同樣的這個地方前後"},{"start":13137.615,"end":13154.406,"text":"123那1跟3都是通過站結果他6次這個第6次前面5次都是通過的我的意思是說那他為什麼停下來之後才開始思考這個問題"},{"start":13155.674,"end":13184.686,"text":"他是這樣所以他犯了一個錯誤就是說他是有一個疑慮他應該趕快請教我們的行動中心結果他沒有這個做他想說留下來以後他要看他自己的平板確定他的這個訊息是不是對的不是 董事長你們的邏輯是到站之後才確定這一站他要停不停他是停下來之後再確定要不要停還是說"},{"start":13186.041,"end":13210.461,"text":"我今天開 我開始懷疑了我要不要停 我就開始問控制中心說這一站要不要停因為他的弔詭在於 他已經停起來了他停起來 然後24秒我們每天搭高鐵上班的人都知道停下來到開門 大概5秒吧 5秒門就開了因為你還有一個列車長在門口控制那個開門 對不對"},{"start":13212.142,"end":13236.054,"text":"所以他停二十幾秒之當中他到底發生了什麼事情他停下來然後開始想這站要停嗎就是一般人如果說他說他沒有停他忘了他根本不知道這站要停西湖就直接開過去我還能夠稍微理解就是他可能走神了他可能分心了他可能想到Maybe很快樂的事情就一路開過去了"},{"start":13237.349,"end":13265.128,"text":"可是他是停下來還20幾秒董事長有沒有查看看他這20幾秒到底發生什麼事情我補充一下包委員其實在他出發之前出站之前在briefing的過程已經有告訴他要停哪些站所以基本上他在那個時刻就應該要知道所以他每一站哪站要停自己要清楚那第二他到了站之後他停下來他要給列車長一個指示列車長才能開門"},{"start":13266.169,"end":13282.555,"text":"那當時他沒有給列車長指示於是列車長趕快就要打電話給他給駕駛那打給他的過程當中他也應該要問清楚聽電話聽清楚結果他沒聽清楚他以為列車長是要催他說趕快走你不應該停那那個時候其實他還可以看平板確認"},{"start":13284.116,"end":13309.559,"text":"但實際上他又沒有去看平板確認但即便你不看平板確認你也應該跟OCC聯繫也就是行空中心聯繫確認說我這站到底要停或者是不停當他不確定的時候但他也沒做這個動作於是車子就開出去了所以連串的其實都有機制可以防呆但他該做的很像都沒做部長你這樣回答我能夠理解換言之這24秒其實就是在這個"},{"start":13310.72,"end":13329.097,"text":"跟列車長處理停不停開不開走不走就是這些問題對就是他在猶豫的過程好那這一個事件啊凸顯當你設計了這些機制他還是會停下來20幾秒然後開走有沒有想到接下來要怎麼辦"},{"start":13331.132,"end":13350.662,"text":"是 我們認為說在這種情況發生的時候應該是一個就是我們的列車長可以馬上按我們的PEI讓車子就停下來這是一個機制另外一個方式就是說這個列車長趕快告訴我們OCC請OCC把他這個車子把它停下來這兩個機制"},{"start":13354.028,"end":13371.633,"text":"這個就是接下來不會再發生這種因為你這裡面看起來你設計了一些防呆的機制但看起來這是一連串防呆機制失效之後所產生的這個結果所以那個防呆還不夠防就更呆的情況底下你就防不了了"},{"start":13372.313,"end":13382.908,"text":"就呆到這個程度就會產生今天這個現象之前的機制是針對駕駛而已那現在就是增加了其他的單位可以把列車停下來的一個權限"},{"start":13383.84,"end":13412.214,"text":"所以跟這個委員報告就是我們往後這個朝向加強這個列車長駕駛列車長以及行控中心三個的互相聯繫的這個的這種動作我們要加強那這件事情我們真的是感覺很抱歉讓這個不管旅客也不方便讓我們社會大眾甚至我們委員這邊都這麼的關切我其實覺得旅客不方便是這裡面受傷最小"},{"start":13413.496,"end":13432.671,"text":"就旅客很重要喔,但是如果今天是因為有波比啦,這沒有停往前開沒有發生任何意外嘛,就是只有耽誤了旅客當然這很重要,但是如果跟意外比起來,旅客的時間的浪費反而是最輕的啦"},{"start":13433.496,"end":13446.664,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情不能等閒置之的原因是因為高鐵是幾乎成為現在無論是這個就國人無論商務或者旅行他最重要的交通工具之一"},{"start":13447.711,"end":13468.276,"text":"那同時每天尤其是大家現在知道高鐵都塞嘛車人很多像假日啊這個立法院都在問買得到票買不到票連立法委員都每天都在關心自己買得到票能不能回去你就知道一般民眾那難度更高了所以你接下來要調整的方式你一定是更密集"},{"start":13469.178,"end":13488.213,"text":"就你只能更密集,不然難道你要蓋第二條高鐵嘛對不對那你更密集對於這種防呆的精準度就如果簡單講他該停沒有停,然後前面剛好那台車子也還在那這個時候恐怕所釀成的這個問題恐怕會更大所以呢這個"},{"start":13490.194,"end":13508.439,"text":"我很訝異是因為高鐵公司竟然會發生這種事情這個讓我很訝異那竟然訝異了它到底問題出在哪裡我們原先的房呆設計表示還是不夠房子啦所以應該在這方面還是要再加強"},{"start":13510.189,"end":13530.949,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我們會挑戰我們這些各種剛才講的SOP會來強化那另外跟委員報告一點這個所謂的會不會追撞這個事情呢在高鐵的這個所謂的Fair to Safe的這個概念是不會的因為它每一個控制我們那個電路板那個軌道電路裡面會"},{"start":13532.35,"end":13554.889,"text":"要求你前面有這個車子你這邊就停下來不會進去所以這點我補充報告這個我當然知道啦但我的意思就是說我也沒想過會有過站不停或者是停下來20幾秒再開走沒有上下車就跟你現在跟我講說不會啦我們都設計好這個不會追撞不會什麼就是我原先也不會放就是"},{"start":13556.031,"end":13582.348,"text":"當聽到這個事情的時候我第一個時間我助理告訴我說我還跟人家講說這一定是假消息哪有可能高鐵怎麼可能發生這種事情那過不久就發生SSG所以我的意思就是更謹慎的態度來面對你認為不可能發生謝謝委員的指教讓我們會深切檢討謝謝謝謝蔡其昌副院長的指引接下來我們請邱若驊委員來指引"},{"start":13594.285,"end":13594.766,"text":"交通部陳部長"},{"start":13607.836,"end":13636.589,"text":"委員好部長好部長本期在上週的時候4月8號的時候交通部業務報告中有針對巴德地區的觀光發展提出質詢那同時當時也詢問部長有關三一線延伸至巴德的相關進度那當時本期也拿出行政院給予的回覆那當中行政院我們可以看到第三點有針對LB13站還有LB12A站因為進出的人數還有他預估的運量不足那"},{"start":13637.589,"end":13656.838,"text":"行政院有要求交通部督導地方政府進一步評估兩站的可行性那部長您當時回覆說會再瞭解相關的情況那過了一個禮拜不知道部長目前掌握到哪一些最新的資訊還有進展報告委員這個必要性確實當時是被行政院那個國發會他們是有提出來"},{"start":13657.498,"end":13679.055,"text":"有一些意見那這個部分我們也跟地方政府包含桃園市政府跟新北市政府兩邊也都有溝通那目前有些進度我是不是請局長可以來回答一下這個案子我想國安會已經完成審議了是有這個意見沒有錯但是最終還是送到院裡面那現在在院裡面再做最後的這個審查跟核定的程序"},{"start":13679.335,"end":13696.809,"text":"也就是國發會的部分也針對這個意見已經有審核過了請問部長請問局長就是你們預計就是什麼時候會完成核定這個要看院那邊還是要再看嗎交通部的這邊的程序已經都走過了那國發會的程序也應該是差不多完成了那之後就看院那邊的"},{"start":13697.509,"end":13723.224,"text":"是因為本行一再提醒部長因為捷運山陰線目前的進度已經達百分之八十二了無人的駕駛它現在也已經啟動了那預計今年年底完工明年營運嘛那因為山陰線它延伸八德段是在交通部去年九月二十號的時候呈報行政院那本行我們目前這邊的了解是它還沒有核定那當時交通部呈報的路線是山陰線的LB10"},{"start":13724.564,"end":13745.444,"text":"2站那沿線新增LB12A還有LB13站兩座高架的車站那終點站則是與捷運綠線G04然後採購過的方式設置LB14地下車站那全長約4.3公里部長請問要請問您的態度啊就是對於新增LB12A還有LB13是否支持設站"},{"start":13746.89,"end":13768.001,"text":"報告委員 我們交通部都審議過了 這個是地方政府的規劃 我們都尊重那交通部當然會審議 那審議也已經過了 那這個部分應該是OK了所以我們目前還不知道行政院的態度嗎如果因為人口數還有運量 它預期的運量不足那最終它決定會同時移除這兩站 那您認為會帶來什麼樣的影響"},{"start":13772.226,"end":13787.737,"text":"這個等他確定之後我們再來討論後續的影響是還要等確定那這邊先和部長討論您知道在台北區域系統我們交通部所審過的是有這幾站目前我們交通部給出的意見是有這幾站那如果院那邊有另外的意見我們後續再來討論"},{"start":13789.244,"end":13806.817,"text":"好那這邊也另外請教部長一個問題你知道在台北捷運的系統中路段最長的是哪一段嗎這個我不清楚OK好那是把南線的龍山市站到張子翠站那它兩站的距離大概是3公里形成時間大約是4分鐘那部長如果移除LB12A和LB13這兩站"},{"start":13809.139,"end":13829.647,"text":"那他預估的長度是4.3公里那已經明顯喔他這個長度超出台北捷運站目前最長的站距那這樣的前提下如果未來旅客發生如果他們碰到火災還是地震其他緊急的情況那這邊是否會造成他疏散上面有難度呢"},{"start":13830.499,"end":13851.393,"text":"包括委員您剛所提到的那個藍線捷運的部分它主要是因為跨河所以距離才會拉這麼長那一般的捷運站來說距離不會這麼長不太會有這麼長的狀況那您記不記得就是2014年的時候有發生政捷事件那當時就是從龍山市到江子翠站那它就是台北市它最常佔據"},{"start":13852.794,"end":13873.161,"text":"的路段也正因為這樣子所以要請部長再考量就是LB12A還有LB13這兩站他設置的必要性因為我們要顧及乘客的安全目前交通部這邊沒有否定的意見沒有否定的意見因為我們看到秦政院的態度他是持否定的意見所以他遲遲不肯核定"},{"start":13874.849,"end":13896.259,"text":"這個我們就不曉得,但是我們的部分是沒有問題部長你應該要掌握啊,因為你知道過了多少天了嘛但是國發會那邊也已經審議過了所以國發會對於這兩站他們最後也是接受我們的說法了上禮拜本席問到部長的時候已經201天了,那今天是208天對,所以這個已經卡在行政院卡了208天了"},{"start":13898.48,"end":13926.023,"text":"對 所以希望部長能掌握就是也像行政院提出到底什麼時候可以來盡快來核定所以不只是轉達也希望部長可以做解決問題的人好好OK 好 部長先請回座休息謝謝委員那這邊也請今天看一下也請行政院經貿談判辦公室副總 副總 總務副代表"},{"start":13934.377,"end":13963.136,"text":"嚴副總好那今年二月川普他發布了加徵對台灣32%的對等關稅那4月9號他宣布實行嘛那消息一出當下造成全球的股災那這個政策不到12個小時目前川普除了宣布對除了中國之外嘛那其他地區暫緩90天那由於桃園總共有37個包邊工業區他的年產值是4.7兆那川普的對等關稅對桃園的製造業也造成了嚴重的衝擊請問次長您知道"},{"start":13963.736,"end":13978.415,"text":"桃園它的主要製造業有哪一些嗎我們是經貿談判部門所以對於這個國內產業的部分 不好意思 次長那這邊也請次長今天次長"},{"start":13984.987,"end":14001.365,"text":"市長您知道有哪些桃園大概有自通訊產業PCB那還有少部分的一些這個加工零組件這個部分是加工零組件那還有電子零件還有電腦產品還有汽車的零組件嗎那對於"},{"start":14003.407,"end":14030.062,"text":"這電子零件然後還有電腦電子產品的還有汽車零組件這三大產業佔我們全市桃園全市的工業產值40%那其中汽車還有它的零組件製造業更是重中之重了福特像福特六合還有國瑞還有中華三大設商都在桃園設產那根據桃園市經發局的資料顯示桃園市的全市汽車還有它的零件製造業總共有380家那前鄭文蔡市長他也稱桃園市"},{"start":14031.243,"end":14038.358,"text":"為台版的底特律那次長這邊要請問您2024年台灣的汽車零配件全球出口產值為多少"},{"start":14040.333,"end":14047.538,"text":"我們的整個總出口產值我們在這個報告裡面有寫這個整個車輛產業總產值達到5023億台幣那整車的部分是2077億請教您的是零配件零配件的話是"},{"start":14061.887,"end":14085.306,"text":"是那我這邊本期得到的資料那台灣的汽車零配件在出口的產值是這邊得到資料是1575億那其中消亡美國的是796億那它的比重是佔了50%所以它的順差是787億那代表我國的汽車零組件對於美國的市場還是高度依賴嘛那這邊也邀請部長還有我們剛剛就是我們的"},{"start":14086.047,"end":14112.994,"text":"言談判代表那這邊希望可以保護本土的產業然後作為台灣最大的利益OK好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝邱若驊委員現在請徐護魁委員執行謝主席有請我們陳部長跟周署長"},{"start":14116.216,"end":14117.233,"text":"部長 周署長"},{"start":14123.339,"end":14145.221,"text":"委員好 部長好 署長好我想這陣子全球大家好像在洗喪溫暖以下美國總統川普喊出的關稅4、50%、8%然後以下給你降到10%雖然是目前暫緩不過真的也讓全世界很多產業受到很大的驚嚇"},{"start":14146.582,"end":14157.007,"text":"那我想最近我們行政院我們左院長也帶領我們許多的團隊在各縣市跟我們各行各業的企業界包含我們一些農業的業者在座談"},{"start":14158.052,"end":14180.873,"text":"那部長我想請教那因為目前行政院提出881的一個支持方案那針對交通部的部分我們這邊有什麼樣一個因應方案嗎報告委員目前他的這個方案裡面主要是農業跟工業為主還有勞工大概分這幾塊那目前對於我們交通部的部分其實大家評估比較有可能受影響的是觀光"},{"start":14182.114,"end":14204.017,"text":"觀光到現在為止我們看起來的數據是沒有受到影響到現在為止不過對於未來的評估我們正在盤點當中而且我們也有會想一些這個支持業者的方案因為真正如果發生比較負面趨勢的狀況底下比較影響會大的是我們的國內的業者那這個部分的協助的方案我們正在研擬"},{"start":14205.061,"end":14234.06,"text":"部長我想我們還是要未雨綢繆甚至超前部署那我想我再舉這樣的一個例子過去我們在疫情期間我們交通部針對一個觀光的一個振興一個復甦的方案提出了一個大概將近500億的一個計畫包含一個觀光業跟交通運輸一個紓困還有一個轉型的計畫那我想面對這樣子目前這個國內旅遊市場這個因為受到國外旅遊市場的一個競爭"},{"start":14235.221,"end":14247.349,"text":"我想針對這樣子過去我們推動的包含國旅券包含那個住宿的補助還有團友的一個獎勵補助甚至景區跟這個環境的一個轉型的一個計畫"},{"start":14248.462,"end":14265.188,"text":"那部長我們有沒有針對目前這個國內旅遊市場低一米的狀況有沒有再考慮採取這樣的這幾個配套措施就像我剛剛跟您報告的這次的關稅的這個影響到目前為止看起來數據上影響是不大沒有什麼太大的影響"},{"start":14265.928,"end":14283.706,"text":"那不過您所提的這幾個振興的方案我們也會研擬在我們秋季或者是冬季的時候因為夏季眼看就到了那目前還評估不太出來因為他那個關稅還有個90天的期間那我們秋季跟冬季的部分我們會先預作準備預擬方案"},{"start":14284.266,"end":14300.136,"text":"那不過到時候到底景氣的狀況是往下或往上我相信現在沒有任何一個國家評估的出來但是還是要做好準備我們會先預作準備也就是跟委員報告我們秋季跟冬季的部分我們先做計畫把它擬定起來準備來協助振興觀光的部分"},{"start":14301.176,"end":14317.643,"text":"那所以就是下半年的部分我們就隨時做好因應的作策啦不過我想目前我們觀光業他們還是擔心這個缺工的問題那當然我們過去我們在2030的觀光政策白皮書有特別提到我們觀光署要成立一個"},{"start":14318.644,"end":14332.679,"text":"財團法人的觀光研訓院那我們戰利俊副院長也有特別要求觀光署用一年的時間來成立這樣的一個機構那請教部長跟署長我們目前經過三個月了這個成立的進度為何?"},{"start":14333.2,"end":14361.832,"text":"是 報告委員我們這個觀光研訓院的部分我們會預計在年底之前會可以完成那這些我們部裡面也都開過會我也跟周處長開過會那我們部裡面相關單位包含財主單位大家有開過會針對未來的這個設置的計畫跟未來的這個基金的這個來源就是資金的來源的部分我們也都有一定的方案那目前正在寫計畫當中我們大概這個月的月底大概就會有一個比較具體的方案會拋過來"},{"start":14362.992,"end":14390.811,"text":"我知道部長跟署長大概這幾年大概為了這個國內外觀光大概有很多的想法跟對策啦不過我覺得這個我們還是要與時俱進啦我覺得我們古年生活今年不一定好用啊尤其我覺得整個觀光環境的這個變遷也非常非常大那我們的這個遊客也好甚至我們鄉親他的對於旅遊的想法也隨時都在改變他看到最少他就招隊啊所以這個真的是要隨時有滾動檢討的必要性啦"},{"start":14393.352,"end":14414.709,"text":"那回過頭來我還是要提到屏東觀光那部長我想您自己本身也很常下去這個恆春啊你覺得恆春這個屏東公路目前我們大概就走屏東公路吧因為過去我們這個也有相關的機構委託公關公司提到屏東觀光的一個問題那其中被最大的一個詬病的其中一個要點就是"},{"start":14415.41,"end":14442.682,"text":"那你這個觀光這個交通的問題尤其我們現在目前當然我們現在目前針對高鐵也好捷運也好平台快速到達這幾條路的那個進度我們要加快進行但是這個交通擁捨跟測速照相機過多發達很多這本事件很難聽部長這部分有沒有辦法跟內政部跟相關的單位來做研究看怎麼樣因為總是設置了一個時間之後是不是應該要做調整"},{"start":14443.97,"end":14466.822,"text":"你不要塞下去之後 都開發端開了之後好像也沒有解決應該解決的問題反而造成民怨造成大家不敢往墾丁去跑這問題部長怎麼看待報告委員您剛剛所說的塞車的問題其實您也關心過很多次包含未來有可能的觀光鐵道是個方案還有就是屏南快的部分也是一個方案交通的部分我們一步一步來解決那另外你們說"},{"start":14467.862,"end":14485.902,"text":"您所提到這個警察取締或者是測速照相太多這個過去會設這些測速照相就是因為有出過一些車禍所以才會設置代表當時的車速或許是過快才會有測速照相那測速照相之後也確實有一些成效啦坦白講就是車禍的狀況變少了"},{"start":14488.084,"end":14503.646,"text":"那現在會不會太多以我自己開車因為我時常開車去墾丁再加人過去我是沒有被拍照的經驗但是有一些人確實是覺得這個取締有點太多那這個部分我們跟警政單位大家來溝通一下有沒有可能讓"},{"start":14504.387,"end":14517.299,"text":"讓大家又安全然後又守法不過不要時常有罰單的這個狀況我們來溝通我們支持這個危險路口一定要來做加強的取締但是有些路段真的確實可以檢討或許是針對車速的部分大家可以來做討論是是是"},{"start":14524.993,"end":14540.826,"text":"那另外我想我們屏東有茂館處茂林風景區管理處跟大鵬灣風景區管理處那過去其實我們在這個好幾個鄉鎮長都有跟我反映有沒有可能我們這兩個風景處的那個範圍裡面把周邊的鄉鎮把它納編進來他們很要讓你們服務"},{"start":14550.392,"end":14568.58,"text":"擴大的議題其實很多縣市也都有這樣的期望那我們之前台中的霧峰區也加入了33管理處那委員也關心很多次那我們也會來討論這個議題就是說其他的地方有沒有可能加入不過有一些是特定區的問題我們來想辦法解套"},{"start":14571.761,"end":14599.841,"text":"部長我想就是排除特殯區之外那其他有意願的部分能不能一起來納入合作最起碼這個我們相關整個不管是這個旅遊資源也好農特產品甚至你們最拿手的觀光推廣部分整個中央跟地方一起來合作我們也可以用另外一個方式就是用觀光圈的方式我們設定觀光圈然後把它納進來是觀光圈裡面也是可以協助的到這部分我到時候我會再邀縣政府跟相關的單位再跟你們一起來討論"},{"start":14600.942,"end":14617.618,"text":"那最後就是我想那個這個票價的問題那台鐵一調了之後台北到屏東的票價破千啊已經破千了那未來這樣子是不是會影響到我們鄉親的權益甚至很多這個旅遊的一個鐵道米這個旅遊的一個"},{"start":14619.32,"end":14636.254,"text":"衝擊那甚至我們這個高鐵我知道我們有做一些的旅遊套餐的一個配套措施但是因為我們很多的優質的一些飯店跟民宿的業者一直往往都得不到我們高鐵關愛的眼神沒得變合作對象有點可惜啦那這部分是不是可以來做事實的一個檢討調整"},{"start":14638.075,"end":14666.935,"text":"其實台鐵這是票價的調漲它地元是地減所以如果你說台北到潮州或者台北到屏東這個非常遠的距離它反而票價的漲幅是低的不過委員一直在關心針對觀光的影響那我們也會請台鐵公司如果可以的話我們也跟地方的一些觀光業者大家有一個套票或者有什麼樣的合作方案讓未來住飯店也便宜然後交通費用也便宜大家比較願意往南"},{"start":14668.195,"end":14694.232,"text":"我覺得就是我們擇優然後來共存共榮把這個餅做大嘛這部分大家一起來努力啦好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們習護魁委員那接下來請我們喜智傑召委的執行好謝謝主席我們陳部長好陳部長"},{"start":14701.465,"end":14725.424,"text":"委員好部長辛苦那個對等關稅前幾天正好卓院長也有到南部去針對我們的產業做談那針對交通的部分事實上也要提醒部長一下就是說整個關稅未來對台灣的影響因為其實川普的關稅其實只是個序幕"},{"start":14726.772,"end":14743.431,"text":"未來其實最後的目的應該是美國的供應鏈民主國家的供應鏈跟中國的共產國家的供應鏈會分開所以已經會打破以前自由貿易WTO全球化的概念"},{"start":14744.457,"end":14754.563,"text":"所以這個是一個序幕當然到最後我們要想到最後就中間這個過程可能我們要怎麼應驗比如說我們的大貨車產業我們的那個車體的那個結構那個"},{"start":14761.354,"end":14788.992,"text":"熱淨鍍芯啦我知道他那個CS就是有一些是整體在中國道路那邊做熱淨鍍芯而有一部分是在台灣他是分不同的部分鍍完再去連接所以像這個部分就是說到底以後如果是以供應鏈的角度來看咦 咱的供應鏈有可能用到他們中工的東西那到底要怎麼去運用"},{"start":14790.117,"end":14808.399,"text":"像這個東西可能要想很古董的要想很專門的所以就我們的交通事業方面的產業那跟中國供應鏈有關係的可能都一併去做思考這說起來是很多啦但是細節可能要你們交通部去盤點"},{"start":14809.76,"end":14836.068,"text":"所以希望說交通部我想各部會都會遇到這個問題啦就是說你沒關係公共工程用到所有的機具或者是載具那你就是任何的車產業界都有可能這個供應鏈長期都會受到影響所以這提醒我們各部門就是說可能這個部分要先去預作一下思考不然未來有人回到你再去"},{"start":14837.795,"end":14839.136,"text":"其實我們一直要求觀光署請署長"},{"start":14853.778,"end":14870.024,"text":"我想去年觀光署其實有在台北做一個觀光產業數位博覽會那我想這個是一個比較先進的AI技術的融入這個部分其實應該給予觀光署肯定啦我知道不錯的地方先跟你們討論"},{"start":14871.805,"end":14888.616,"text":"董仁你昨天我答應說6月要到高雄來辦嘛對不對是是那不知道現在準備的如何我們也配合仲夏節那麼在柏二會有三天的這種數位的這個策展那跟民眾一起互動"},{"start":14889.477,"end":14913.359,"text":"那這個部分我們已經整個系統都設計好了那我們會5月23號一起公佈OK 謝謝這個照規劃進行這個我想承諾的東西我要再坎縫一次是不是有答應了有做好這個一定會做謝謝那當然就是說我想再請教一下就是署長這問題今天AI應用到觀光產業那在目前台灣的"},{"start":14914.62,"end":14935.209,"text":"影響有多大或者是產值有多大因為在應該這麼講AI跟AR的應用其實是在行銷推廣之外還有一個非常重要就是民眾的回饋然後我們要結合大數據的分析跟區塊鏈這樣才能夠精準的掌握市場"},{"start":14936.269,"end":14961.691,"text":"那麼尤其是在少子化跟高齡化之後我們觀光的產業尤其是旅行業、旅館業、遊樂區業他們也需要有更多的這些我們的數位的這些應用那麼如此的話我們整個觀光的這個旅遊產業才能夠更往前走對就是上一次我有跟部長跟署長提到就是說到底台灣你來台灣最有吸引力的是什麼"},{"start":14963.521,"end":14987.073,"text":"那目前來講就是說我們的觀光人數上次也有提到現在是786萬坦白講這個數字我們是相當不滿意啦那我們當時很努力的把觀光局變成觀光署就是希望能夠提高格局那做一個更廣闊的思考"},{"start":14987.873,"end":15004.203,"text":"所以我們有個概念就是處處都是打卡點 步步都是觀光部那是不是就觀光署在做這個格局的思考的時候我現在覺得你們可能還是被綁在交通部底下的觀光署裡面"},{"start":15005.55,"end":15025.111,"text":"應該你要跳出來就說你今天假設是行政院的立場或者是行政院政務委員的立場你來看觀光署應該怎麼發展那該跟各部會跨部會溝通交流的改善的這個該做的要去做要不然你看你的設定的目標去年786萬今年設定的也是"},{"start":15028.26,"end":15054.707,"text":"一千萬 對不對挑戰一千萬 對我上次不是有講 你看日本是今年是四千萬二零三年是六千萬那到底我們觀光署交通部在這一部分的長遠的思考有沒有去做改變所以我要要求就是說這個部分希望你們可以改變一下思考就是說不要老是在裡面我再舉個例子 那個"},{"start":15056.636,"end":15065.441,"text":"我曾經到其他各個代表處去拜訪,其實你會發現以印尼來講,印尼、印度、法國、加拿大、菲律賓都在這裡辦事處對不對?你過去後到底有多好過嗎?"},{"start":15080.475,"end":15101.757,"text":"那個是遊客中心啦我們是台灣觀光遊客中心最後就是回過頭來看我的786嘛對不對對我們希望雙印的部分能夠設辦事處也就是我們現在目前為止跟外交部怎麼做都是你的戰術策略啦我要看的就是戰略佈局嘛你最後的結果"},{"start":15102.558,"end":15112.031,"text":"你最後的結果坦白講七八六我今天觀光局變成觀光署照理講是提升一個層次是我的要求應該要提高一個層次"},{"start":15114.355,"end":15140.29,"text":"是 我們大概是有兩個部分一個是等於是求職的部分 參職啦對所以我們希望也能夠高端團的部分能夠吸引他們所以我希望說其實然後另外一個部分當然就是我們希望能夠自由行的部分能夠呈現台灣的門號你怎麼去做我都拭目以待但是我要看的就是說你那個格局有沒有提高來是比如說印尼"},{"start":15141.47,"end":15165.504,"text":"印尼最大的問題其實簽證是個很大的問題是是那你們有沒有想辦法去克服我們一直在跟相關單位在對你懂我意思嗎也就是說我今天要的就是說你今天觀光局變成觀光署我今天786萬是相當的不滿意的那我今天用什麼方式來提高包括我上一次提到的就是你"},{"start":15166.164,"end":15184.169,"text":"美食小吃啊日本的溫泉啊你要怎麼樣製造特色讓人家想來我覺得你想廣一點想高一點然後要跟各部會怎麼去跨部會協調這個部分我是覺得現在你做的當然我是覺得還不錯啦但是就是說總是那個格局看到的是不夠的"},{"start":15185.369,"end":15205.221,"text":"是不是請署長能夠提高這個格局去做思考希望說部長就是說在跨部會的部分可以給予觀光署協助這樣我們看我就看到他那個做出來的格局決定結局態度決定高度嘛不然你在觀光署裡面 交通部的觀光署裡面怕怕不會中 你做不大步"},{"start":15206.682,"end":15233.265,"text":"是不是希望說交通部跟觀光署這部分可以做不一樣的思考所以下一次我希望看到的就是那個那個目標值啦我希望看到一個更高的戰略目標好不好是 我們持續努力對 那我來下一次再來看那個署長再準備一下好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝我們喜智捷召委現在請陳俊宇委員執行"},{"start":15249.892,"end":15253.878,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長好 陳部長 楊局長"},{"start":15259.125,"end":15279.01,"text":"部長部長局長午安 委員好因應新的這個財務法的相關這個通過之後對於後續的軌道建設是否會造成什麼樣的影響在此我想來就教我們部長首先就是我們這個宜蘭鐵路高架的部分那在去年的10月22號總諮詢的時候"},{"start":15281.389,"end":15294.118,"text":"本席也曾經詢問過部長針對宜蘭的鐵路高架是否可以在兩年內來動工那當時部長您有回覆就是說盡量會努力在兩年內來動工"},{"start":15296.4,"end":15313.96,"text":"那在行政院核定之後就會進入設計規劃的部分並且會努力在10年內來完工那我想先請教部長就針對這個部分我們的期程會不會改變是 報告委員這個部分你也相當關心那你也一直在督促說這個速度要加快"},{"start":15314.48,"end":15338.741,"text":"那對交通部這邊的立場來說我們當然希望速度也要加快所以這個部分其實鐵道局前面該做的前置準備也都做了那跟地方的溝通其實也有在溝通當中那最後還是要等院那邊的核定所以這個過程我們還是盡量以快速的方式來完成好那因為這個之前我也請教過楊局長那在"},{"start":15339.662,"end":15366.114,"text":"今年上半年一定要獲得這個核定才能夠順利在明年開始來動工那我想這部分是不是我們後續還是請我們部長跟局長我們繼續加把勁能夠督促我們行政院這邊是不是可以盡快來核定並壓縮後續的期程以確保明年得以如期來動工這部分再拜託部長跟局長那另外高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分這個"},{"start":15369.022,"end":15383.818,"text":"高鐵東延宜蘭南延屏東這是我們台灣環島高鐵的一個必經路廊那現在不做未來就會後悔這也是大家目前所看到的一個情形"},{"start":15384.537,"end":15405.413,"text":"那我相信相關的這個期程已經都在進行當中包括我們現在環境影響評估已經進入二階的部分也預計可能會在五月初跟七月初來進行這個環評的初審那也希望能夠在八月順利把這個環評能夠通過那針對這個部分我們的期程有沒有改變"},{"start":15406.645,"end":15427.079,"text":"包括我們騎乘上是沒有改變不過也要拜託委員幫忙一下地方如果還有一些意見的話也要幫忙溝通一下我們也有最近從媒體有看到說有些地方很像提出了一些意見那這個部分當然鐵道局會積極來溝通那不過也要拜託委員如果可以的話地方上我們一起協助溝通讓未來的環評的這個時程可以"},{"start":15428.9,"end":15450.896,"text":"照我們原本原定的時間下去進行好那個地方分歧的聲音我們會去消弭我們會希望說大家能夠有一個共識就是朝向這個高鐵的部分能夠盡快來動工的目標來前進是我們朝這個方向努力好那之前這個114年就是今年的1月22日有曾經召開過鐵道局召開過這個會議與縣政府討論這個"},{"start":15455.519,"end":15472.245,"text":"達成一個共識就是行政契約共識那已經委有這個縣政府在委辦當中那我想請教就是針對最後的確定這個高鐵特區會劃定幾公頃的部分這部分是不是已經有一個比較明確的一個目標"},{"start":15474.151,"end":15499.873,"text":"這跟委員報告這個我們已經完成委託宜蘭縣政府辦理都市計畫規劃作業所以特區的實際上的規模其實要經過都市計畫的程序才能夠做確定那當然大家都有一些建議有的希望建議大一點或者是什麼樣的一個情況那我想這個要等宜蘭縣政府完成這個都計的規劃跟後續的都計的審議程序才能夠做最終的確定"},{"start":15500.413,"end":15510.978,"text":"好那這部分也是請我們鐵道局就是積極的跟這個縣政府來做對話我們除了提供經費也會積極跟宜蘭縣政府這邊來做相互的配合可以盡快讓這個"},{"start":15514.37,"end":15535.322,"text":"範圍確定的話我相信這也對後續高鐵要推動的過程裡面會更加的順遂那另外就是那個南陽大橋跟葛馬蘭大橋的部分我想請教部長就是針對這個部分因為葛馬蘭大橋預計是118年要完工南陽大橋是119年那這個部分這個工程的期程有沒有改變"},{"start":15536.372,"end":15551.459,"text":"目前跟委員報告目前因為現在都在做相關的設計那因為設計的作業大概都要到明年才會完成那設計完成之後我想我們就會找相關的經費來發包目前還是照委員剛所提到的那個期程來進行這樣子"},{"start":15553.211,"end":15582.031,"text":"那因為其中那個南陽大橋的部分因為這個鐵路高架的部分後來發現那個橋樑也要做我們鐵道的橋樑要改建所以增加60億的部分這個預算應該沒問題吧因為這個設計之後的話會整體的那個這個計畫的經費我們會把它就說要把它納進去不過因為相關的因為這個工程的經費都要滾動檢討到我們的省道的改善計畫經費內所以還要再做一些檢討"},{"start":15582.831,"end":15602.098,"text":"好 那以上就請我們部長跟兩位局長能夠積極的來協助我們宜蘭盡早讓我們宜蘭相關的這些軌道建設還有交通建設能夠提升謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝局長好 謝謝陳俊宇委員接下來我們黃珊珊委員執行"},{"start":15611.472,"end":15629.272,"text":"謝謝主席 我請部長還有觀光署好 陳部長 周署長委員好是兩位早 我想剛剛大家都在討論到底川普的關稅政策會不會對台灣尤其是觀光造成什麼影響"},{"start":15631.091,"end":15650.478,"text":"報告委員這個影響到目前為止還看不太出來因為我們不是貨物啦所以重點是服務服務就變成是我們的強項了重點是觀光署設定今年要到一千萬那第一季看起來是目前推估是兩百一十萬所以部長年底一千萬有信心嗎"},{"start":15651.378,"end":15667.883,"text":"報告委員我其實一直針對這個數字的部分我覺得重點是把台灣的觀光體質做好做好服務做好來了要覺得還想再來是沒有錯重點是觀光署還有台鐵現在都很認真的在推所謂的鐵道經濟鐵道觀光"},{"start":15669.784,"end":15695.416,"text":"然後因為我也有很多國際友人問我來台灣要玩什麼我們就會推薦他去看去坐台鐵最新的作為鐵道觀光所以部長你知道現在鐵道觀光有多少的觀光列車你覺得狀況好不好目前看起來都還不錯還不錯 包含明日號 海豐 山蘭狀況都還不錯那4月3號那個明日號出軌是怎麼回事出軌的部分我請台鐵來回應所以狀況就是沒事"},{"start":15696.548,"end":15711.336,"text":"我跟委員報告那一天的出軌主要是我們那個整木整木的部分因為那邊是木整有一點所以管理看到明日我們就會覺得我們的觀光會受到影響因為觀光客會看新聞會聽會問"},{"start":15714.278,"end":15727.436,"text":"同樣的部長我現在要跟你探討我跟觀光署跟台鐵調資料我們這些觀光列車從來沒有統計過國內旅客跟國外旅客的區別是嗎"},{"start":15728.891,"end":15757.847,"text":"你知不知道有多少國外旅客來做相關的有嗎那你為什麼你們回覆給我們說沒有咧國內外旅客有沒有區分有我們現在因為有委我們的觀光列車經營模式都有委託休斯義郵網那他們也都有統計國外旅客的比例沒有啊你10月25號才回我說沒有統計分沒有國內旅客跟國外旅客的區別這樣子是怎樣就是給我的資料都是錯的沒有我們總共的旅資有的話給我們資料第二個平日"},{"start":15759.031,"end":15778.667,"text":"才是重點是外國觀光客來坐個觀光列車嘛因為國人就是假日去坐了嘛所以平日需要更多的國外觀光客第一你要知道是誰我的朋友從國外過來坐我請他去坐這個觀光列車他跟我講兩個缺點第一個是有部分幾乎沒有外語服務人員"},{"start":15780.521,"end":15808.726,"text":"這件事情沒有外語服務人員目前為止觀光署台鐵是說這是營運商的問題部長啊這不會是營運商的問題這是你觀光署中華民國交通部我們要提供什麼樣的觀光列車這個不會是廠商的問題好嗎應該要讓國外旅客來台灣是我請他們去做就他跟我說他看不懂中文他沒有任何的外語服務人員這是第一個問題第二個部分就是剛剛看到的就是啊"},{"start":15809.864,"end":15820.21,"text":"老舊啦我們這車看起來目前為止如日昊將近他都要用兩個車頭來拉是嗎部長知道嗎幾個車頭這個我是不曉得他有兩個車頭來拉為什麼因為他的車頭從33年到45年"},{"start":15831.383,"end":15857.491,"text":"的年紀都很大了部長我們如果說明日號是台灣最美的觀光列車它是台灣最棒的頂級的旅遊而且我們收費非常的貴但是我們提供的服務我感覺台鐵只是要做資產活化啦它沒有要做真正的頂級觀光啦也就是說這麼舊的東西管理上面我同意拿舊的廢棄物要拿來做"},{"start":15858.231,"end":15881.432,"text":"我同意但是你可不可以做得好一點包委員我們之後會針對明日號的部分我們會換EMU不是只有明日號你現在所有都是拿舊車來改我們現在會拿E500的這個車頭新的車頭來做是第二個搭乘率剛剛講的搭乘率部長我看到新聞是說平均載客到九成"},{"start":15882.273,"end":15890.904,"text":"有這麼好嗎你知道現在載客率多少嗎載客率我不清楚但我所知道的是他營運的狀況還不錯還不錯我現在跟你說環島直興載客率30%藍皮節優化60%明日號現在也掉到50%"},{"start":15898.024,"end":15924.526,"text":"只有一個最新最夯的海豐號大概有九成所以不要拿一個最好的狀況來欺騙交通部啦觀光署我希望觀光列車我們覺得很好鐵道迷都很想來台灣我們也希望他們來台灣看到是台灣優質的服務好的車廂好的服務可是現在看起來就是很舊然後我們做得很漂亮收很貴的錢但是對他們來說會不會想再來要想一下"},{"start":15925.367,"end":15946.275,"text":"部長如果觀光經濟你還現在還要成立什麼觀光研訓院這些東西不是只有去外面做大外宣啊東西不好人家不會再來啦要把職做好是所以我希望就我剛剛問的這幾個問題第一個車頭年限過高第二個搭乘率現在你有什麼解救的方法是"},{"start":15946.775,"end":15967.588,"text":"如果假日我知道假日其實一票難求因為國人會去國旅但是我們平日需要大量的國際觀光客這一點看起來目前為止一直在下滑所以你說經營的不錯是沒錯有一些縣不錯有一些縣很不好最重要的是如果還有這種出軌啦拖軌啦然後甚至之前還聽說什麼有"},{"start":15969.369,"end":15988.534,"text":"漏掛一台車廂啦有的沒有的啦台鐵的狀況真的很多好嗎部長我只希望說如果你連搭乘率都不知道或者是連他們管理的方式都不知道的話我覺得你也很難去督導他們所以我希望這兩件事觀光署成效你可能要仔細的看一下第二個台鐵"},{"start":15989.634,"end":16012.752,"text":"這是管理的問題這絕對不是我希望不是只有單純你如果國際觀光要把觀光拉起來不會只是他們兩個單位的事好嗎好部長一個月之內給我一個改善的計畫或者是剛剛我講的這些問題你們有沒有什麼因應之道包括你的車頭要換什麼時候換換什麼第二個國際旅客跟國外旅客的統計不要再用數字來騙我好嗎好"},{"start":16016.87,"end":16020.331,"text":"謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們鄭天才委員執行"},{"start":16048.68,"end":16073.579,"text":"好 這個主席 各位有請部長好 交通部陳部長來 部長辛苦了 委員好好 我們看這個台灣十大建設這個總共十大建設包含了北迴鐵路北迴鐵路的興建"},{"start":16075.224,"end":16102.576,"text":"當時的政府完全沒有考慮到經濟效益就是為了安全的交通不考慮經濟效益 安全的交通好 我們看北回鐵路從這個1973年動工到完工只有六年的時間六年的時間 而這個是非常間際的以當時的工程技術"},{"start":16103.817,"end":16129.156,"text":"核研科學的技術各方面北維鐵路總共81.6公里總共有22座的大橋20公尺以上的大橋16座的隧道還有14個火車站這個都是相關的經費以及相關的投入只有6年的時間"},{"start":16132.269,"end":16157.417,"text":"這裡面確實是它是一個最間接十大建設裡面最間接的最困難的一個工程好這個剛剛講過了我們來看現在的國道五號銜接蘇花公路蘇花改公路計劃前長只有6.8公里剛才那是81點多公里"},{"start":16158.562,"end":16185.809,"text":"這個只有6.8公里以現在的工程技術科技的發達盡量要8年想想看要8年第二個台九線花東縱谷公路安全井瓜大道其實就是台九線的偷寬名稱弄得很大很好這個沒有關係"},{"start":16187.452,"end":16216.05,"text":"台九縣的透寬我從第八屆就開始質詢要求最後核定了106到116然後現在要延長到119要13年難以想像透寬而已喔台九縣的透寬所以這個部分真的是需要加油"},{"start":16217.97,"end":16245.274,"text":"好 我們看花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化的計畫這個也是我在第八屆開始去吹電氣化已經做囉 電氣化已經做了現在只是要什麼 雙軌化要去銜接這個北回鐵路的雙軌化要去花東的階段要雙軌化電氣化都做了"},{"start":16246.263,"end":16274.068,"text":"而在做電氣化的時候已經遺留了雙軌化的路線所以這個部分是應該很容易的結果呢110年要到117年原來的計畫現在又要延長到120年的12月總共要10年7個月要去跟北迴鐵路來比的話"},{"start":16276.257,"end":16299.811,"text":"那真的是 難道現在的科技工程技術都退步了嗎所以這個部分 何況現在又有鐵道級 以前沒有鐵道級以前是台灣省政府交通處喔北威鐵路的時候 台灣省政府交通處我過去在省政府當公務員很長時間"},{"start":16303.362,"end":16326.869,"text":"生活權道路我們就先講前面的部長真的是要去跟行政院溝通協調跟行政院主計總署其實就是經費的問題經費的投入沒有投入那麼多嘛所以只好展言展言嘛"},{"start":16329.376,"end":16348.613,"text":"這是事實嘛我在中央也服務了十年了這個就是預算的分配的問題嘛預算被三倍凍啊不是 部長這樣說就錯了凍結可以解凍現在凍結的理由 既然講到這個"},{"start":16351.798,"end":16375.988,"text":"現在行政院之所以要求各部會不把解凍案送到立法院就是因為什麼 理由是說通案刪減的問題其實通案刪減是立法院的幾十年來的慣例而且是 就是授權就是授權給行政院各部會通案刪減 你要刪哪個這授權"},{"start":16379.636,"end":16402.032,"text":"何況解凍的條件這麼明確所以這個部分 部長我們不要太政治我們就是要解決民生的問題尤其是要跟行政院跟行政院主席總書長我們要送 為了交通我們要送解凍案好不好 加油最後 一計畫就好 一計畫就好"},{"start":16405.941,"end":16422.432,"text":"這個生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫時間的關係請把這個這歷年來這個過去這個執行到現在到那個花蓮台東的就好了花蓮台東的提供給我好 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請鍾嘉賓委員執行"},{"start":16439.836,"end":16461.003,"text":"主席在場委員先進列席的政府江蘇黨官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先請交通部陳部長還有經濟部何次長和財政部的謝次長好那另外的後半段要請航港局的葉局長港務公司的李董事長和陽明的蔡董事長準備好來那個陳部長還有我們政事"},{"start":16467.782,"end":16491.575,"text":"部長好兩位次長好今天我的題目呢零關稅同盟不僅要杜絕息產地還要應對各種燃料建制管路儲槽好我們先看請看一下零關稅同盟唯獨中國會產生什麼結果首先中美雙方高關稅貨物就幾乎流通了但是美國要求跟他的同盟去中的自由貿易同盟包括日本台灣韓國歐盟加拿大"},{"start":16492.574,"end":16519.634,"text":"我們呢組成一個零關稅的自由同盟而這些國家跟中國之間美國要求你特殊商品要貿易管制而且呢甚至也不排除要求對中國提高高關稅陳部長為什麼美國會有這個要求陳部長為什麼會有這些要求他大概對於整體的生產鏈過去的狀況是不滿意的他希望改變整個生產鏈的狀態好是但是下一頁"},{"start":16520.97,"end":16537.262,"text":"就是要嚴防中國製品透過供應鏈從台灣銷到美國對不對現在兩格已經到145 125了但是如果中國或透過來套套組裝再用零關稅同盟過去這是美國要防止的何市長經濟部是不是採取了這五大作為來防止遺產地"},{"start":16539.684,"end":16560.864,"text":"監測宣傳重研裁罰建立名單還有反傾銷是是吧好謝謝往下看但是我們來談一個請部長看一下自由貿易港區的貨物原則上可以直接進出不需核准是不是這樣子是吧是是這樣子所以呢我們在2024自由港的出口進出口呢突破三兆"},{"start":16562.297,"end":16588.707,"text":"2024年貨櫃有300萬但是我們看一下如果是自由貿易港如果中國貨來到台灣組裝或自由貿易港再出去有沒有可能又或者說它中轉到其他國家越南再來才組裝再出去有沒有可能其中我知道這裡有一個東西兩件事情第一自由貿易港裡面進口的貨物再出去必須加值35%或者是形態有轉型謝市長是不是這樣子請跟賴光說"},{"start":16590.512,"end":16599.525,"text":"不管是不是進入自由民主黨區要取得MIT一定要在台灣加持35%以上好 那請告訴我們怎麼防止中國或中轉入台"},{"start":16601.57,"end":16619.85,"text":"這個部分我們跟經濟部貿易署這邊其實最近有一些強化措施市長何市長有什麼強化措施跟委員報告我們會密切監控從大陸那五點對那七點好來陳部長我們看往下一題現在自貿區的主力貨物是哪些"},{"start":16622.436,"end":16636.813,"text":"電子產品為主在這裡電子生醫自行車組裝對不對對2025還要加上台北港澳變成車輛園區但是我們要怎麼樣哪些需要防止中國稀產地呢有沒有哪些要防止中國稀產地這裡面桃園貢獻到2.4兆"},{"start":16639.495,"end":16653.033,"text":"提示一下2018年到2024年經濟部根據自由港條例第16條到歐盟、英國跟美國的這些自行車電動輔助自行車、鋁製輪胎圈還有部分的鋼鐵製品要先行核准為什麼要先行核准"},{"start":16654.52,"end":16679.605,"text":"因為最容易被洗產地對所以自貿港的確可能是一個洗產地的破口往下看好那請問自貿區怎麼防止洗產地來 謝市長你過去擔任關務署是不是我們有這兩個防查核貨物的帳戶電腦連線認定進口戶的原產地是不是這樣是好 何市長那你們貿易署是不是透過這兩個方式來確定避免中國洗產地"},{"start":16681.788,"end":16698.115,"text":"監測貿易量然後簽發原產地證明那請問這個主管機關管理機關陳部長這就你的囉如何協助查處公司的物流金流2018年到現在自貿區查獲違規運轉43件罰了多少錢是不是你們罰的違規的轉運是海關是海關罰的是關務署罰的"},{"start":16706.161,"end":16732.588,"text":"是不是那個跟委員報告一下是海關去查核發現不核的話我們會依請誰裁罰對誰裁罰應該是交通部因為我們是依照自貿港區那個管理條例的法令來處罰啦好來處罰那誰裁罰你看就是這樣來了發財主是我們海關來發沒有錯但是法據是交通部交通部主管陳部長你的責任來了嚴重的話可不可以廢止許可"},{"start":16733.773,"end":16753.386,"text":"可以有沒有廢止許可過到目前沒有所以說這件事情誰統籌市交通部統籌部長接下來中國棲產地的事情有關武署有貿易署但是港口的部分是交通部市交通部承諾要防止自貿區棲產地可以嗎好謝謝接下來很快的進行兩個題目來"},{"start":16755.407,"end":16783.115,"text":"天然氣進口我們知道本來是跟澳洲卡達美國買的少現在跟美國買請問部長你認為接下來澳洲的天然氣要賣給誰這個我不曉得不曉得來澳洲會怎麼做來往下看澳洲都會想說我天然氣銷量少了我跟太陽能我來做什麼做濾清我可以高溫裂解碳補濾之後呢我變藍青太陽能光電電解水濾青然後我透過液態氫或液態氨的方式出口台灣需不需要"},{"start":16785.168,"end":16789.903,"text":"所以如果我們跟澳洲買天然氣澳洲轉型做綠青藍青我們跟澳洲買不買買怎麼運來台灣"},{"start":16794.107,"end":16820.845,"text":"好往下看這是對這是陸特丹陸特丹作為歐洲對歐洲未來的能源港生產進口管道運輸加薪站他都一併的準備了所以接下來會做什麼事情往下看所以呢港區要對應各種燃料現在請我們的航港局請我們的陽明海運請我們的港務公司告訴我先請問陽明海運長榮訂了多少的多燃料產長榮"},{"start":16824.468,"end":16833.948,"text":"還沒有這出現長榮訂的船要問陽明我要問他同業競爭啊長榮訂了多少艘不同的非傳統燃料船"},{"start":16836.64,"end":16858.602,"text":"18艘啦是艘什麼的都是Methyl對就是多元燃料所以未來我們的港口進來的船舶會多元燃料卸載的也是多元的能源請問一下這些多元能源要不要專用管路不管是氫不管是鞍還是液化天然氣要專用的儲槽陳部長您的港口準備好了沒有"},{"start":16859.54,"end":16886.24,"text":"報告委員您現在提醒之後我們來想辦法準備好謝謝我不只現在才提醒我過去提醒來李董事長我有沒有問過你那個跟夏業委員報告一下這兩種目前在船的話就是LNG跟上岩那邊是比較少但LNG的話我們目前是在台中港來配合還有永安這邊那目前好來問經濟部何市長你們天然氣結構站可以接收安可以接收清嗎"},{"start":16887.591,"end":16907.098,"text":"你們現在籌備的天然氣接收站可以接收安可以接收清嗎經濟部你們只能接收LNG天然氣啦因為這三者的議題的費點不一樣所以管線也要不一樣所以我要提醒陳部長經濟部的天然氣接收站要怎麼去配合經濟部的事情但是請交通部可不可以責成港務局"},{"start":16908.169,"end":16930.496,"text":"港港局港務公司還有你們所屬的可以指導的陽明海運盡快的對多元燃料船還有港部地區的管路儲槽跟槽車往下看進行準備並且一個月提出書面報告可以嗎可以好謝謝好謝謝我們宗教兵委員接下來是李坤城委員"},{"start":16931.687,"end":16951.241,"text":"李崑城委員 李崑城委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員執行謝謝主席 楊瓊英邀請部長好 交通部陳部長委員好"},{"start":16958.342,"end":16987.432,"text":"部長好那我們來討論今年這個來台旅客我們設定的目標是要達到千萬人的這個目標但是我們看到目前全球關稅這個關稅站的陰影之下呢導致了日本韓國東南亞這些中藥客源的市場出現了衰退那更令人憂心的是呢我們這個我國的觀光產業長期存在一個什麼呢景點同質性高"},{"start":16989.053,"end":17016.847,"text":"那數位資訊以及交通整合那怎麼樣可以整合得更好還有在我們宣傳跟特色方面必須要連結起來結合才能夠更有效能所以要請教面對國際情勢的嚴峻挑戰跟我們自己本身的條件那部長你也說了4月9號的時候看到你發表說表示我國旅遊業對外行銷的方式是必須要檢討的"},{"start":17018.968,"end":17032.677,"text":"所以在這邊要來請教部長面對關稅戰可能帶來的衝擊跟現有的國際旅客衰退的警訊世界各國都很緊張這個警訊我們要採取什麼樣有效的應變方案"},{"start":17038.26,"end":17056.845,"text":"又如我們要怎麼去檢討跟改善我國的觀光行銷策略跟產業來結構性的這個結合這個問題是非常的重要才能夠確保你們所宣布的希望這個千萬觀光人士的目標來達成請做說明"},{"start":17058.965,"end":17075.896,"text":"報告委員這個不是設定千萬人次我的說法是說去年沒達成我們希望今年能夠達成那另外去年沒達成今年能夠達成當然就是交通部希望在今年來台旅客要達千萬人次但是我一直強調其實質比量更重要"},{"start":17076.556,"end":17098.133,"text":"我們現在在打底像委員剛剛所指教的沒有錯我們有很多的地方做的不夠例如說同時性太高或者是宣傳不夠或者是數位資訊的提供不夠或交通的整合不夠佳這些都是打底的工作所以交通部要怎麼樣做應對這些部分我們要一塊一塊把它做好一塊一塊把它做好怎麼做呢"},{"start":17098.473,"end":17120.922,"text":"但您特別在提醒就是說因為這個關稅站的陰霾之下陰影之下導致日韓跟東南亞客源市場衰退到目前為止我們看第一我們的訂房率影響並不大第二我們這個航空的這個訂票訂票率看起來也還好不過我認為未來可能會造成衝擊跟影響我們現在正在預作準備也跟委員會溝通"},{"start":17122.363,"end":17122.643,"text":"國外旅客來台要補助"},{"start":17147.223,"end":17172.822,"text":"對誘因要增加另外就是我們自己內部打底的部分我們該怎麼樣幫助我們的旅行社也好或者是飯店業也好這個部分我們也都會加強來努力好你的回答告訴我們政府是有在觀看目前的樣態當然目前關稅還在談判的這個排隊當中所以我們政府不管是中央政府地方政府大家都極力的"},{"start":17173.823,"end":17190.123,"text":"必須要團結一起合作來應對這個事項那所以呢本身要請教您說秋冬的時候那你們預計在你們所研擬的這個方案什麼時候可以告訴給國人我們大概什麼時候目前來講我們"},{"start":17194.065,"end":17213.834,"text":"跟委員報告一下部長也確實有要求我們應該要做好各種準備啦我們的部分我們是還要幾個方案在做調整所以一邊談判一邊預計有可能的變相那因為秋冬你總是要在秋之前要宣布啊"},{"start":17215.118,"end":17225.705,"text":"要不然我們所有的這個觀光業者他要怎麼去應對所有的準備都要預先準備但是不見得要先告訴大家我覺得這兩個是一個方向包委員因為我們準備了假設啦我先假設說景氣下滑假設觀光景氣下滑"},{"start":17233.61,"end":17255.118,"text":"那我們就會來宣布這些方案這個沒有問題但也有一個可能性是景氣並沒有下滑我們方案有準備了我們當然希望啊所以我們就像跟做水庫一樣一定要保障我國國內的觀光以及來台的人數要達到您所說的千萬人士的這個目標所以方案"},{"start":17256.258,"end":17279.307,"text":"你現在說你們有準備我也希望你們把應對的一定要準備充足隨時什麼狀況就隨時可以提出那接下來我要跟你討論的一件事情也就是我們交通事故死亡的人數跟行人死亡人數當然現在我們歡喜看到它是下降的趨勢但是本期要跟你討論的是1到2月"},{"start":17279.907,"end":17294.425,"text":"我們的兒少交通事故的死亡人數是比去年的同期增加50%這個我非常的緊張因為這個兒童及青少年我們理所當然應該要能夠得到保障"},{"start":17295.066,"end":17312.609,"text":"所以如果是有漏洞就會產生衝擊到我們家庭的幸福跟安全當然本席要跟你討論的也就是說我們目前有開發交通安全教學輔導軟體但是結果它是"},{"start":17314.351,"end":17329.62,"text":"這個數字讓我們是有一點心慌所以每一個生命都非常的寶貴我們要如何的在政策方面能夠去提升整個交通安全的一個意識跟行為請教"},{"start":17333.323,"end":17340.345,"text":"報告委員在教育的層面我們5月1號會有一個新的軟體5月1號調整軟體上架那我們也會跟教育部門也就是教育部這邊來協調跟溝通看小學國中跟高中怎麼樣去接受這個軟體從根本觀念讓他們有清楚行為才能夠落實這個務必要去加強"},{"start":17355.33,"end":17368.575,"text":"最後一個功課我給您也就是高速公路的統計我們1月份到3月份國道發生了36件火燒車的事件那甚至在3月13號發生了半連結車"},{"start":17374.097,"end":17391.466,"text":"這個火燒車呢研製了長達造成11公里的嚴重回堵那我們可以看到這個問題我們必須要去謹慎之所以本期又看到3月底今年到3月底我們國大AI死亡的事故當中你們有做統計"},{"start":17392.566,"end":17416.871,"text":"高達六成二的噪音是什麼呢是分心跟疲勞駕駛當然我們不希望這些事情的發生那麼交通部你們除了呼籲民眾自立之外你是不是因為這樣的嚴肅的議題你要怎麼樣有積極的防範措施來確保我們國道用人生命財產的一個安全請說明"},{"start":17417.711,"end":17419.352,"text":"因為一件事情他會引導到11公里的一個回堵"},{"start":17434.341,"end":17449.881,"text":"我們現在是很緊張的事情用那個駕駛人他沒有去注意他自己的車禍當然所以本席告訴你六成二的原因是分心跟疲勞駕駛那你明明知道這個原因我們政府要怎麼去應對我覺得這個你們本席認為你們要"},{"start":17451.062,"end":17478.263,"text":"有所去討論要怎麼樣去應對不再讓它發生嘛你現在知道原因你當然要有方法我們現在也有這邊大部分都是大車的部分啦大車的部分我會跟那個你把你今天方案去研討然後給本席來 防止這些事件好不好好 那個鄭局長就提供書面資料給楊委員好不好好 謝謝謝謝楊崇英委員接下來請林業群委員執行"},{"start":17492.021,"end":17509.967,"text":"麻煩我們的交通部部長交通部陳部長委員好部長午安部長想問一下你知道慢速運具有哪些慢速運具"},{"start":17512.706,"end":17537.156,"text":"腳踏車或者是電扶車那我想我再問進一步再問說傷亡數據你有沒有掌握傷亡數據慢速的黃市長你這邊有沒有慢速的慢速運氣的傷亡或者是委員那邊有要不要直接說我們就來看"},{"start":17539.73,"end":17554.264,"text":"看到這個數據你看光看三年的數據就呈現惡化的趨勢讓人家十分擔憂那整體來看到慢車的交通事故案件傷亡是持續全面的持續成長"},{"start":17555.645,"end":17583.654,"text":"那腳踏腳踏車大概是成長1.1成6那微電車事實上是1成5那電動輔助車自行車事實上是3年內成長2成7可是我比較近期有一個議題很值得關注的就是我們在問你們滑板車的數據因為我們現在路上就很常看到滑板車那你跟我們講說是放在個人行動運具那如果講說放在個人行動運具的話現在也成長了3倍是多那就想問部長說"},{"start":17584.654,"end":17607.45,"text":"那目前國內的電動滑板車的管理狀況是什麼而且你有沒有掌握而且舉凡行使的入權跟安全規範這些問題不知道部長知不知道請市長回答會比較快這個部分跟委員報告一下委員大概也知道說處罰條例上是修正已經把個人行動載具的部分已經放寬讓各地方政府可以依照它"},{"start":17608.67,"end":17626.177,"text":"這個各地方政府交通的狀況或路段可以開放的部分去做開放那到目前的話確實也還沒有地方政府在做這個開放交通部應該很清楚現在在國內的那個電動滑板車雖然依法看起來有"},{"start":17627.057,"end":17645.84,"text":"屬於交通規範中的個人行動器具寫是這樣寫定義上是慢車可是可惜的是因為法規跟環境的限制一個是入權很不清楚另外一個就是我們要來問的是因為我去問警政單位因為警政單位也在跟我反映那到底他要用什麼法如果針對這些新型運具的話"},{"start":17646.821,"end":17656.149,"text":"而不知道要適用哪些法規所以想來問部長你認為警察如果遇到我們的電動滑板車違規的話要用69條還是32之1條"},{"start":17659.881,"end":17682.522,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下因為個人行動這個載具在這個處罰條例已經定義成慢車了所以他這個違規處罰的部分大概有兩個課題第一個部分如果地方政府沒有開放他上去的話那基本上就是違反這個不得上馬路的規定那另外一個部分他的交通違規行為如果說有違反一些相關的部分就乘乳腳踏車一樣基本上都是按照這個慢車的"},{"start":17683.002,"end":17705.078,"text":"你現在講地方政府地方政府就覺得中央然後就兩邊就是會互踢皮球所以我說問你69條還是還是32支1條如果你講69條的話那就不知道那電動滑板車規格是什麼這各縣市政府有沒有去訂規格這69條講的說他自己訂規格啊然後行駛的路線是哪些如果你說講32條的話那我就覺得的確現在警方"},{"start":17705.959,"end":17729.884,"text":"的確是用32條之一來開罰可是用32條之一開罰的話那就會講說滑板車他就不是個人行動那個運據囉那如果不是行動運據的話那我們前面講數據你們又說把滑板車的數據史上的數據歸在那個所謂的個人行動運救這我就覺得有點前後史上不太一致"},{"start":17730.734,"end":17750.961,"text":"那當然我也再請部長是針對我們的電動滑板車的管理能不能做一下現在目前的規劃的狀況和進度是什麼我們會出一個指引會出一個指引已經請運營所正在做指引當中有了指引之後地方政府就比較好預許"},{"start":17752.145,"end":17778.959,"text":"部長我覺得今天來看我們來看其他國家因為我認為台灣的管理措施都還相對的消極因為我們年齡定的最低然後呢數限定的相較於其他國家是比較寬的所以難怪我們的三網事實上是一直在成長而且成長到三倍我覺得這不是一個好事尤其剛剛前面那個央軍委員也在講的事實上阿薩羅的交通三網事實上是成長了50%所以這件事情應該"},{"start":17782.12,"end":17802.63,"text":"部長應該要去考慮到如果國外有些好的措施為什麼沒有吸取別人的經驗呢那我們再來看歐洲那你剛剛講有指引我就不知道有沒有去對價到歐洲的一個狀況他們也知道電動滑板車事故率很高甚至他們現在有意要全面禁止那甚至他們去看到這種"},{"start":17803.55,"end":17831.848,"text":"事實上是自行車的傷亡的七到十倍的時候他們指引做了些什麼事情呢也就是希望能夠第一個要求戴頭盔然後呢另外一個事實上禁止使用手機甚至提供駕駛訓練甚至明訂車體的規格跟路權都在做可是相對於我們現在目前我不知道說我們做的狀況是什麼我也會參考各國的這些案例跟他們的好的規範您剛剛所提到他們好的規範我們會在六月來出指引目前指引還沒出來我們目前會參考這個來出一個"},{"start":17833.029,"end":17850.065,"text":"是我們再來看一下日本他是透過民間企業合作的方式在特定的區域先去試辦跟評估如果按照成效之後才訂定法規所以最後我就期待專部可不可以針對這兩點也就是積極跟地方政府延伸試辦計畫來啟動調查研究然後"},{"start":17853.949,"end":17875.809,"text":"針對這種新興的一個慢速運劇一定要做因為我們自己去看其他國家像我們去美國他們也越來越多這個那台灣也是那第二就是檢討目前的規範執行跟我們的推動的情形來盡速研擬我們的慢速運劇後續的管理方式所以這個是不是可以兩週內給我相關的報告提供說明這個沒問題好 謝謝部長"},{"start":17879.895,"end":17892.384,"text":"好謝謝我們林業勤委員接下來蘇清前委員蘇清前委員蘇清前委員不在現在葉延珠委員葉延珠委員執行麻煩請交通部長謝謝好交通部陳部長"},{"start":17911.811,"end":17933.59,"text":"最近有發生一個郵輪的消費糾紛一個義大利籍的哥斯達郵輪因為有一些狀況所以滯留在納霸報休後來形成延誤除了該次的行程有延誤之外也影響到下一航班所以總共有7000人受影響但因為這個哥斯達後來"},{"start":17935.211,"end":17943.298,"text":"後來他說他是根據全球營運規範只願意提供50塊到100塊美金的船上消費的抵用金"},{"start":17944.212,"end":17964.644,"text":"那當然消費者不願意接受嘛因為好不容易排到了然後這個假期然後去然後遇到這個狀況結果業者只提供這個50到100塊美金報告委員目前已經是200塊美金對 一樣啦很多人還是不滿意那所以現在已經他們已經有讓去消保官那邊說要介入了"},{"start":17965.504,"end":17992.524,"text":"但我現在是發現說這個郵輪的這樣一個消費糾紛糾紛其實是層出不窮因為像去年7月的時候同樣一個郵輪公司哥斯達他遇到凱米颱風嘛形成也是延誤三次那後來也是影響到很多消費者的權益那再往前推一點還有另外一家郵輪公司也有消費者跟我陳情他那時候是有機械故障然後在原地"},{"start":17993.405,"end":18009.345,"text":"打轉失去動力在原地打轉但是這家船公司不承認他說沒有啦可是消費者就非常確定是有的當時航港局有回應這個事情但是拿著船公司的聲明來回應也沒有做調查"},{"start":18010.026,"end":18032.314,"text":"然後我現在想要跟就不想討論這個機制因為為什麼其實你可以去看很多人很喜歡坐這種郵輪它幾乎都滿滿的為什麼呢因為很多郵輪都去日本台灣人特別喜歡去日本所以有去日本的航程通常都很容易滿第二個是有些人他就是喜歡坐郵輪他也許到了一個港口他也不見得下船他在船上可以做很多活動"},{"start":18033.334,"end":18048.75,"text":"所以我認為這個航港局應該要有一個機制來保護我們消費者目前如果消費者遇到這個狀況大概只能三種情況第一個就是透過品保協會來申訴可是品保協會只能申訴旅行社"},{"start":18049.591,"end":18078.871,"text":"旅行社通常就會說他只是代銷船叫他們自己去找船公司所以這也沒辦法第二就是透過消保官或是銷機會但實際上不然也很清楚透過消保官或銷機會如果協調不成最後還是要打官司那很多這種郵輪他都是外國籍的變成要打跨國官司那多半所有消費者他不會因為這一點損失他跑去打跨國官司因為打跨國官司是曠日廢食又要付出更多的成本所以"},{"start":18079.651,"end":18104.726,"text":"有沒有可能這我提出一個建議啦你們可以來研議一下有沒有可能我們航港局或者是交通部針對至少是從台灣出發或者是以台灣為主要港口的這些郵輪公司可以建立一個評鑑機制如果他被申訴過多或者是說態度就比如我們消保官介入或消基會介入每一次他們都態度很高傲"},{"start":18105.966,"end":18128.528,"text":"然後等等的一個評驗機制當然什麼項目交通部可以去規劃如果他評比比較不OK那至少我們可以是不是可以考慮比如說減少他在我們港口的停留的時間或什麼之類可以想到一個對應的方案出來那至少我認為未來有一個保障以後消費者如果遇到糾紛"},{"start":18129.949,"end":18143.23,"text":"他不至於態度會這麼高仗著自己是外國籍然後仗著好像這個是一個賣方市場反正你不來還有還有別人要來我位子很滿啊我不見得要理你啊只要你們對不對我在想說交通部有沒有可能研議出這樣的基礎因為這個狀況越來越多了"},{"start":18145.653,"end":18174.602,"text":"報告委員確實我們有發現這種消費上面的糾紛蠻多的所以我們針對他們定型化契約的部分怎麼樣針對這個消費者的權益的保障的部分我們會來做一個新的版本讓他未來對消費者的保障的程度會更好那其實台灣的這個消費者保護的機制還算蠻健全包含我們小保關介入也都會有效果這個部分我們會先做那您剛剛所建議這個平建機制我覺得也是蠻好的想法我們來討論看看看可不可以往這個方向去推動"},{"start":18175.282,"end":18197.729,"text":"想回應喔第一個我們的定型化契約跟保護當然是做得很好可是問題是定型化契約還要再修要修得更好修得更好嘛業者不理你啦因為之前有一個消費者跟我我們如果有照那個契約基本上他不太可能不理你我就是有遇到陳其仁跟我這樣反應嘛結果到最後就叫他自己去打跨國官司啊那就放棄了"},{"start":18198.84,"end":18228.157,"text":"所以你如果純粹靠那個定型化契約最後要走司法途徑的話實際上他的效果還是有限我認為如果公權力可以介入一個評鑑機制對他有一些不管是懲罰或要求其實可以達到比較好的效果好我說是不是航港局可以來研議一下這個我們來研究看看看看是不是我們訂一個期限因為我跟你講那個有人的問題一直層出不窮看看多久可以把這個大概構想提出來"},{"start":18229.712,"end":18254.472,"text":"我們先研究看看 看怎麼樣做會比較完善沒關係 你說第一個期限嘛你研究完之後可以做不可以做 給個答案嘛我們三個月好不好我們三個月的時間來研議一下 好不好OK 好 好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝葉研知委員現在黃宏威委員黃宏威委員黃宏威委員不在現在請黃美惠委員執行"},{"start":18262.862,"end":18263.803,"text":"交通部陳部長"},{"start":18275.202,"end":18289.567,"text":"因為昨天我回到我之前的時間時間不夠所以我可以等到現在要來講解家裡市的建設應該保證知道我要跟你談到的就是我們家裡市有太保固體的到家裡市這條清潔在這裡面的時候我怎麼想就想不到"},{"start":18303.132,"end":18319.002,"text":"在1999年 高通坡也有補助假日期的立法盤的前期規劃在1981年的9月 也有可行性評估的行程在1980年10月 也有立體道局補充的說明"},{"start":18324.045,"end":18335.371,"text":"在1月初 市政府還有補充資料在82年1月初我們還有補助1290元的全市規劃的經費在83年6月初 市政府也有提報在83年1月初 市政府再修正在84年1月"},{"start":18352.24,"end":18352.5,"text":"始終有債債債債債債債債債債債債債債債"},{"start":18380.268,"end":18383.995,"text":"本縣也跟我們保庭也好 全保庭也討論過到現在是有什麼"},{"start":18388.749,"end":18409.493,"text":"排解各類問題還是要我們地方要有議員 要有理論會簽署說要叫中央做什麼應該可以做到嗎不過我覺得這實在到底沒辦法做到目前為止加以一條清潔地方"},{"start":18413.664,"end":18430.538,"text":"這樣市政府非常不滿意,覺得中央如果不打算請補充你回答一下?報告委員,中央對嘉義的清潔部分,我們支持喔!你是支持的喔!尤其是你在城市"},{"start":18431.218,"end":18441.648,"text":"我們可行性評估,我們也補助一千兩百九十萬給嘉義市政府去做可行性評估我們會補助給他可行性評估的經費,怎麼可能說不支持所以現在嘉義市政府在說中央不支持,這是不對的你每天在立法院在接選的時候,不是只有對我、對政府、對議長,你每天都在講這個議題"},{"start":18456.101,"end":18480.621,"text":"我們中央的態度當然我們也支持但現在問題是這樣在那個可行性評估裡面提出來的價位其他的內容可能大家還可以檢討但是有一部分 加起市政府一定要提出來就是中央跟地方 大家各出多少錢這是今天的分配這個部分 加起市政府沒有提出來加起市政府跟民政委員會希望中央專家來出錢"},{"start":18482.242,"end":18485.144,"text":"這才是重點 政府我們就是說 這不可以中央出來中央一定要去跟議事分多項 不可以這項選舉要專家中央來做來補助"},{"start":18501.783,"end":18521.858,"text":"這補充你說得有重點啦所以你知道問題出在哪裡嗎這是市政府的公法 但是我要跟委員報告但是中央的公法也不一樣啊全台灣國際的捷運或是輕軌都是中央出一些錢 地方出一些錢全台灣的規矩都一樣所以假期沒有可能規矩跟白人不一樣啊但是通常輕軌"},{"start":18524.52,"end":18546.972,"text":"是我們全有補助的耶機場捷運那個改良沒工,那是為了基金喔,那改良沒工,那是基金的,為了國際的門面所以我們中央都要出,加上理事局沒工啊國地方的捷運系統跟清貴系統都是中央跟地方各自有出錢的比例"},{"start":18547.961,"end":18558.948,"text":"因為在這個過程當中,我這陣子也來我們節目補充跟我們現在的補充說,要加以持,加加以關於這個建設、交通要提升起來,大家做好準備,要來推論,跟你也有做了,有做了,現在關於持都在說的時候,到底問題是怎樣?"},{"start":18573.797,"end":18595.147,"text":"只要地方能夠提出地方的金額的比例跟中央的金額的比例大家後續比較好走下去這個部分我希望嘉義市政府要趕快提出地方支出的比例是多少這樣現在就是中央不反對啦跟中央希望全額補助啦跟中央叫中央要上村"},{"start":18596.428,"end":18607.738,"text":"看多這個的錢 像我們差不多17公里 要開370多個啦跟這要怎麼去補助 怎麼去省的時候 我也沒辦法跟我們家裡的市長 跟我們家裡所要做的家裡管得好大家做好準備 來圍住 關公圍住"},{"start":18620.328,"end":18634.121,"text":"等我們去外面吃透露的主題要回來給他一個方便回家的路可以嗎?可以啦 大家一起做回來泡麵這樣表示紅米粉是長久以來都遇到這條的溝通也都有在說不是完全不可能好 以上"},{"start":18644.23,"end":18655.693,"text":"好謝謝我們王美惠委員接下來我們陳雅玲委員執行張雅玲對不起張雅玲張雅玲委員不曉得主席是不是心裡想著主播啦抱歉抱歉抱歉開個玩笑那麼有請部長謝謝我們交通部陳部長"},{"start":18681.186,"end":18699.195,"text":"我想今天就是針對於我們的兒童安全交通安全來跟部長做一些討論就是說在1月的時候你有提到您特別關心兒少交通安全的問題所以呢你也有講到就是說兒少死亡數死亡數是比前一年同期增加三人啦增幅高達30%但是我想這應該是主要是有算到陽梅的那個"},{"start":18699.955,"end":18714.328,"text":"孩子的部分嘛對不對不過你也有特別去強調一直在跟呼籲大眾去了解就是說我們一定要好好的做好這個安全座椅一定要戴好安全帽那你也有提到說很多的一些措施像是說你也有親自介紹這個"},{"start":18716.029,"end":18738.705,"text":"針對於中低年級生出的小朋友的交通安全保衛站線上郵寄以及即將已經推出的交通安全教育懶人包希望讓交通安全觀念更向下扎根那這邊我想請教部長兩個問題第一個就是說我看了一下我們這個交通教育懶人包的這個部分目前好像只有一萬多人來看過這一篇"},{"start":18739.845,"end":18748.374,"text":"懶人包那同時呢我也看到說因為我們有一個保衛戰的遊戲嘛那到底線上參與的人數是多少啊參與的人數多少中低年級的部分"},{"start":18749.554,"end":18776.863,"text":"我們可能要再跟後台的那個資訊軟體的系統上再去問這個部分我們目前可能還不知道那大概什麼時候我們可以知道呢我們就是可能看明天明天再把資料提供給委員明天就可以提供給委員那再來就是說因為也有提到說會透過教育系統讓更多的家長跟教師群組得到這個懶人包那我想問一下現在我們已經跟教育部來聯繫要怎麼做後續的推動了嗎"},{"start":18777.543,"end":18793.717,"text":"報告委員這個兩個部分一個部分是這個您所說的這個懶人包的部分我們應該跟教育體系有聯繫了有聯繫也有拜託他們幫忙推廣那這個現在已經是推廣後了是嗎?因為我現在看到只有1萬多人目前我們有拜託他們幫忙推廣"},{"start":18795.639,"end":18823.12,"text":"因為這個是低年級這個是只有中低年級那高年級的是我們下一波要做出來的那另外就是說我們運研所也有一個方案就是說我們在五月份還會有一個針對國小國中高中的一個交通安全的教育的軟體會出來那這個部分等到五月一號我們正式上線之後我們也會拜託教育部那邊協助針對國小跟國中跟高中的這個交通安全的教育可以用我們這套軟體可以引進"},{"start":18824.619,"end":18848.997,"text":"好 因為其實我昨天跟台北市的家長會長他們在辦一個座談會那大家都非常在意這個交通安全的部分所以我覺得到底我們要如何的落實因為我們可能做了很多但是我從線上看到下載的次數可能也只有850幾次那這個部分有沒有可能也拜託委員因為有一些家長團體您非常的熟悉那我們這套軟體拜託委員幫我們串接一下大家可以幫忙推廣一下"},{"start":18849.377,"end":18868.415,"text":"同意但是我想我們可能還是要回到就是說我們目前的這個懶人包也好或是保衛戰也好因為都不是做第一次了那我們到底在這個過程之中有沒有更精進的一些檢討的做法呢我們目前是有安排嗎因為這也不是第一次做了嘛所以從上一次11年到113年這中間的差異是在哪裡呢"},{"start":18868.695,"end":18873.236,"text":"我們有跟教育單位進行五階段的教材今年我們會啟動一個檢討聽聽站在第一線的老師在使用這個教材在目前的內容上還沒有需要再檢討的我們現在正在規劃進行檢討的工作"},{"start":18893.882,"end":18911.814,"text":"好那這個就延續到我下一個問題就是說因為其實呢我相信這都跟兒童非常非常有關係我們是不是可以邀請兒童跟家長一起來檢討目前的一個手冊的內容或是活動的內容呢因為我想喔如果我們可以從兒童的角度來看的時候"},{"start":18912.614,"end":18931.757,"text":"因為我都有一些字我都有點不是那麼確定小朋友真的懂嗎報告委員這部分您相當的專業所以我們下次再開檢討會議的時候再拜託委員辦公室可以提供一些名單給我們有哪些人可以邀請我們一起來討論因為我想我們還是要從兒童的語言啦才能夠更讓他們落實這件事情那再下一個問題就是說其實在111年"},{"start":18933.098,"end":18948.987,"text":"我們其實第二次國家兒童權利公約審查的時候呢有特別去強調說要把兒童表役權兒童參與的機制納入在我們的整個政府的體制之下但是呢在112年的時候兒少已經由兒少兒少代表他們其實說他們都可以參與啦可是常常參與的"},{"start":18950.288,"end":18964.42,"text":"可能講沒幾句話就時間就可能就結束了就被否決了那所以基本上他們雖然參與了可是其實並沒有辦法對政策有實質的建言那所以這個部分呢有在六位的兒少呢依據了權力公約的第14號"},{"start":18965.521,"end":18991.475,"text":"一般性意見書以及我們的第91點的意見書裡面提到說我們應該要能夠去參與也希望說有五個部會可以成立兒權小組那交通部就是其中一個那可是呢我們針對於這個意見呢交通部的回應是說可以看綠色的字就是說依職權邀請與議題相關之團體列席那這個部分我知道的是目前找兒校團體"},{"start":18992.775,"end":19010.902,"text":"但是還是沒有兒少代表那第二個部分就是說以公共政策網路參與平台目前呢我想這也是非常不適合兒少參與的一個機制所以目前還有第三個回應是說其實行政院有兒少推動小組那我也不需要跟部長報告在這個現場在這個開會的現場其實有非常多的題目"},{"start":19014.483,"end":19028.438,"text":"所以而且他是主動是由大家來提案的所以不一定會針對兒童的這個交通的部分來特別的討論所以我希望部長是不是可以研議我們來辦一個兒少的這個部級的一個那個諮詢小組"},{"start":19030.239,"end":19053.909,"text":"我們是不是可以來研議這個做一個佈局的兒權小組我們過去其實是針對議題啦有適合的議題我們也會找兒少代表不是只有團體 兒少代表也是有過啦真的嗎 因為我們找到的資料好像只有兒權團體也有兒少代表嗎兒少代表也有過 也有過那未來委員在建議的這個我覺得相當的好我們針對整體的交通的議題我們是不是找兒少的代表大家一起來座談或者是"},{"start":19054.189,"end":19077.303,"text":"我希望的是部長我們是不是可以把它變成是一個常態性的會議而不是可能只有針對議題上面常態性的會議常態性的一個就是一個兒權小組在交通部下面對那因為其實有非常多的議題可能都會跟兒童法有關係包含我們過去的一些交通的不管是我們的這個四年四百億的相關的這個部分我們來研議我們來研議這部分我們來研議好不好好謝謝沒問題謝謝委員好謝謝我們張雅玲委員現在請伍麗華委員執行"},{"start":19094.614,"end":19098.822,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長好交通部陳部長辛苦了"},{"start":19103.854,"end":19124.405,"text":"委員好部長好當原民會他的一個數據告訴我們在前幾年原住民的人口有50%以上已經移居到渡輝地區的時候這種大眾運輸工具對我們來講就很重要那我們有很多的族人每次要返鄉"},{"start":19125.886,"end":19149.568,"text":"他就必須要透過各種不同的交通工具甚至是船飛機等等但是呢住在花東的他們的人口很多他們住在花蓮台東的原住民有17萬多那甚至是花東的整個人口呢有53萬多那這麼多的人尤其是原住民經常基於返鄉需求"},{"start":19150.629,"end":19163.203,"text":"我現在要說的是當台鐵的車票漲價的時候我們就會很辛苦那我覺得西部他可能還有其他的交通工具可以用可是對花東來講"},{"start":19165.103,"end":19189.003,"text":"南迴線來講他就是只有火車可以用所以對他的影響衝擊很大特別您要知道我們宜居都會區返鄉的時候不是我個人返鄉我要帶我的老公帶我的小孩帶阿公阿嬤就是一堆人一起返鄉那這個往返當中一天多個幾百塊那一個月不得了"},{"start":19190.225,"end":19203.701,"text":"所以在這個部分我就是特別想要請教說有沒有可能沿你花東線甚至南回線這種被迫只能接受台鐵做交通工具的部長您怎麼看"},{"start":19204.524,"end":19224.089,"text":"報告委員兩個部分我們來處理一個部分是說如果是他是花東的居民不管是不是原住民的身份我們都會提供一個比較彈性的票價給他就是一方面我們會用打折的方式那二方面像您剛剛所提到時常必須要往返那我們就會建議他也加入"},{"start":19224.909,"end":19250.816,"text":"台鐵的這個會員我們針對台鐵的常客的會員尤其是花東縣的部分我們會給更多的折扣也就是說兩個折扣加起來之後會對於居住在花東地區的民眾他們未來在返鄉的過程當中或者是時常要通勤的過程當中可以拿到比較優惠的票價那這個票價跟漲價的這個影響就會降低非常的多那我跟你說還有南迴縣的"},{"start":19253.116,"end":19262.261,"text":"都會包含在內花東的部分都會包含在內因為您要知道假設我住在恆春很多人不見得會選擇坐高鐵再接過去"},{"start":19263.944,"end":19286.834,"text":"他划不來 他也是很辛苦的 要這樣子繞一大圈所以我請部長 那個部分請你們也要研議進去好不好會會會好 謝謝部長那另外一個部分 我在今天的夜報有看到就是我們一直都很關心偏鄉的交通正義那這個部分有提到幸福巴士行之有年"},{"start":19287.634,"end":19296.518,"text":"最新的數據已經來到94.37%的涵蓋率確實我這幾年看到每一個鄉都很開心只要申請車子就有車子 申請郵費就有郵費每一個鄉都很開心 做得很好甚至我們117年說全部都要涵蓋到"},{"start":19310.683,"end":19331.172,"text":"那這個部分我覺得其實很好但是部長我還是要讓您了解一下其實像這種定點定限定時它即便開放可以跨鄉可以跨縣現在越改良越好但是始終有一個部分是大家比較不滿意的就是能不能到我家"},{"start":19332.472,"end":19352.728,"text":"我要去急診我要去衛生我要從這個村到那個村我要去吃喜酒還是很辛苦還是很多人家裡沒有交通工具他必須要依賴但是外面的Uber他又叫不到因為Uber呢他回頭車他空車很貴他們也不想來"},{"start":19353.929,"end":19369.934,"text":"所以這個部分我還是希望說我們要繼續的納入來研議要不然呢這樣的一個美意它用不到為德不足啦但是我要講的就是有一個東西我剛進來上一屆立法院第一年"},{"start":19371.463,"end":19385.309,"text":"我有參與偏鄉白牌車合法化為什麼部長我要參加偏鄉白牌車合法化您要知道在我們的原鄉絕大部分的馬路路線是禁止甲乙類"},{"start":19386.775,"end":19406.801,"text":"像前些年司馬庫斯有遊覽車翻覆就不適合甲乙類的客車所以呢我們要推動偏鄉旅遊這幾年我們其實蠻心痛的就是看到一家一家的外面的這些所謂的車行也好或者是這些租賃公司也好"},{"start":19407.441,"end":19417.18,"text":"都是他們的這些什麼七人座相行車一車一車到所以我們也很想啊所以我們後來呢希望來推偏鄉白牌車合法化"},{"start":19418.308,"end":19446.55,"text":"推動幾年我跟部長說很多人說不好用啦沒有用啦他們到最後取得了那個之後成立了那個之後民間客運可能去接一些文件站的送餐可能參與幸福巴士2.0但是他們說難以養家糊口啊無利可圖啊他們多麼羨慕外面的租賃公司外面的車行他們到最後還是回去靠行"},{"start":19447.597,"end":19462.199,"text":"所以如果能夠達成原來的美意我們輔導我們的偏鄉這些小型客車他能夠在原鄉能夠去載送學生能夠參與幸福巴士2.0能夠接送這些觀光客到新左營"},{"start":19463.34,"end":19490.269,"text":"所以政府花的錢已經很多我的訴求其實很簡單我希望這個部分幫助他們把錢花在這個地方幫助他們建置APP建置網站怎麼輔導他們成立車隊像外面的租賃公司一樣讓他們能夠在地人服務在地人能夠讓他們能夠賺這一些外地客人的錢部長這樣可以嗎我們參考委員的建議我們來研議看要怎麼協助他們"},{"start":19490.589,"end":19515.305,"text":"好謝謝部長謝謝局長好謝謝我們吳立華委員現在請蔡宜宜委員執行好謝謝主席那我們是有請部長跟觀光署長好陳部長周署長"},{"start":19522.519,"end":19547.435,"text":"部長跟署長我想要請教就是環境部2023年公告的這個一次性的旅遊旅宿用品的限制使用那所以旅館業者在2025年也就是今年開始就是沒有提供一次性的比方說牙刷啦刮鬍刀甚至水都沒有提供了那你們聽到的聲音是怎樣"},{"start":19548.883,"end":19571.837,"text":"當然網路上的話看到當然很多的民眾是不太習慣那不過我看環境部他們自己有做一個民調那支持的比例很像也沒有太低當然有些反對的人不過一般來說確實對民眾來說他在住飯店的過程當中他過去的習慣是有提供現在沒有提供對他來講會是一個小困擾是的市長部長我跟你說"},{"start":19573.098,"end":19588.569,"text":"我們的台灣的一個觀光業的一個發展大家會多拿我們來比較會拿什麼國家大概是日本或者是或韓國因為現在很多人會到韓國去事實上韓國跟日本的旅館他們沒有在房間提供"},{"start":19589.628,"end":19607.274,"text":"沒有在房間提供他們在樓下的櫃檯有需要的人自己拿我覺得這也是一種另類的一個方式那這個方式至少讓大家覺得說對我們站在一個環保我們減塑減少塑膠用品的一個出發點這個出發點是好的"},{"start":19608.894,"end":19631.948,"text":"但是畢竟你在經營這種觀光你有收一些小便民一些方便的東西如果是存在的話對於整個觀光的評價是好的因為我們不希望說台灣就說我們要發展我們的一個觀光產業那我們當然希望做到很多細節大家都覺得我們有夠貼心來這裡玩非常的舒服"},{"start":19632.788,"end":19653.9,"text":"結果我光要買個洗臉的工具買個牙刷我可能要找好遠我要去附近找超商雖然台灣超商的密集度很多可是如果比較偏鄉的地方他是沒有的比較偏鄉的地方沒有所以就沒有提供如果他自己沒有帶的話就沒有這些用品了"},{"start":19654.727,"end":19664.096,"text":"所以我想這個政策的推動環境部出發點是好的但是站在我們交通部我們觀光署這個對我們的觀光真的好嗎確實這個我們觀光署也為了這個案"},{"start":19670.682,"end":19692.597,"text":"這個政策啦的推動也相當的辛苦那目前我們也有跟所有的這個飯店業者的工協會也都有聯繫請他們盡量跟像委員剛剛建議的那個日本的模式是一樣的就是說在櫃台的部分我們可以免費讓大家來索取這樣子的一次性的這個備品那這個部分我們有有通令下去也有請工協會進來你們有通令嗎"},{"start":19693.297,"end":19715.112,"text":"因為我接到的一些業者他告訴我說基本上也沒辦法允許這樣嘛提供一次性就是說在一個服務台服務台可以免費取用如果他自己刻意的去做特別精品的部分他是可以賣的對是這樣子"},{"start":19715.872,"end":19738.884,"text":"當然啦 賣是換賣 我現在是說的是指我要取得這一些一次性的這一些備品的話這是服務項目的一部分嘛因為本來就希望能夠貼心的服務但是因為我們不主動提供所以是在服務台或是他在櫃台那邊附近是可以我們也鼓勵飯店業還是維持提供這樣的一個服務我覺得這個應該飯店業再溝通啦"},{"start":19741.645,"end":19766.404,"text":"跟飯店在溝通因為我們有時候站在台灣發展觀光的考量不能說我們政策怎樣我們就就是硬梆梆的就跟著政策走我們會盡量做到更落實啦我們在既然要做觀光就是要做到面面俱到嘛就是要做到說來晚的人覺得哇受到很尊榮的照顧很尊榮的享受這個我覺得以觀光產業我們這一點真的再檢討一下好不好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":19768.646,"end":19789.337,"text":"好 謝謝我們蔡易瑜委員王一鳴委員 王一鳴委員 王一鳴委員不在羅明財委員 羅明財委員 羅明財委員不在邱志維委員 邱志維委員 邱志維委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員執行好 我們請部長"},{"start":19800.968,"end":19827.184,"text":"交通部部長好交通部部陳部長委員好部長好部長我特別要來去跟部長反映就是說我們上次質詢完後針對公關列車到我們西部到我們嘉義鄉親們的反應非常好那這個部分我也希望跟台鐵來表示說鄉親們對這個"},{"start":19830.446,"end":19847.575,"text":"計畫的支持也希望說台鐵能夠全力來去推動這個套裝行程其實不管是我們鄉親我們還接到蠻多電話那還有一些記者也是對這個計畫非常的有興趣是不是可以請部長未來幫我們加強這部分的關心"},{"start":19848.035,"end":19875.892,"text":"希望輸出台鐵一定要幫我們嘉義委員上次質詢也已經有進度了太好了那這個部分我們應該未來也會盡量讓嘉義縣市因為畢竟嘉義縣的觀光資源相當的多那如果可以結合台鐵的觀光鐵道的活動的話我認為是加成的效果這個部分其實觀光署也會努力來推動不只是台鐵的部分應該連森林鐵道的部分我們也會一起來努力"},{"start":19876.212,"end":19903.881,"text":"就是從平原區的大嶺民雄他過去的這種你說創生的計畫也好結合他們的歷史的這些文基古蹟那還有我們最新的其實包含大嶺有一些城堡區這些產業加上文創等等的如果能夠把他們納入在台鐵的套裝形成裡面的話會有非常大的助益那這部分還是希望台鐵能夠如果一有什麼進度可不可以跟我們辦公室來去知會一下好"},{"start":19904.661,"end":19927.598,"text":"這個再麻煩 因為這個反應是真的很好我很少看到有這麼多鄉親會主動來致電告訴我們這些對的政策那這是第一個部分那第二個部分我還是要再反映就是剛才蔡委員提到的在飯店的這個旅宿的時候現場拜託交談小聲一點因為我們陳委員在執行好不好謝謝趙委員"},{"start":19929.839,"end":19956.194,"text":"謝謝召集委員那我們再次再強調剛才蔡委員講的其實是蠻有道理的就是說比方說我們去其他國家來去旅遊的時候那我們露出他們的飯店那依照行程或者是依照他的這個套裝的行程的不同可能會有不同不同類型的飯店通常他們都會提供最基本的這些衛浴洗漱用品"},{"start":19956.934,"end":19982.284,"text":"那我是希望說當然在環境我們對環保政策也非常重視但是兩鄉權衡的時候外國旅客他們對於交通上面整個飯店設施裡面的最基本的要求其實還是需要做到我發覺到說我們有些時候都會走比較極端的路線那看到我聽到一些日籍的旅客跟我們說奇怪他們入住一些台灣的五星級飯店結果"},{"start":19984.005,"end":20009.171,"text":"沒有牙刷牙膏那他們也覺得說這樣對觀光一定有必然的加分嗎我想這是一個問題啦那我們當然還是希望有鼓勵啊鼓勵環保政策但是基本的備品還是希望可以跟蔡委員剛才的這個說法一樣還是會希望說呃旅宿業者能夠提供齁在這個櫃台齁不主動提供但是如果有人索取的時候他應該要提供"},{"start":20010.131,"end":20036.462,"text":"對這個是我們希望能夠做到的那再來就是針對國際海欄的部分那今年年初我們有跟這個部長質詢到說中華電信有沒有加入等等那現在我們在官網當中看到中華電信是被標記為Chinese Taipei那是在C的序列而非慣例的T的序列我當然知道這個部分是可能一些國際上面有一些潛力但是我們希望說"},{"start":20037.162,"end":20050.246,"text":"我們的潛力都是以T為主還是希望能夠在民意上面能夠全力替台灣爭取我們應有的國際地位不知道這可不可以請部長去解讀這個我們是不是請中華電信也自己看有沒有機會可以爭取啦對於我們這邊來講當然也是支持這樣的說法謝謝 謝謝我們最後一題就是針對這一個"},{"start":20055.608,"end":20082.53,"text":"中國灰色地帶干擾海運的部分那我們兩岸從2008年就有簽訂海峽兩岸海運協議那這個協議裡面我方已經開放13個港口那陸方開放55個海港和17個河港總共是72個港口那我們擔心說如果中國片面或變相干擾這個海運的協議的直航安排或者是中國特定的港口航線那我們有沒有實際演練有沒有做好一些民間的溝通機制等等"},{"start":20084.331,"end":20110.957,"text":"這個部分我們跟各部會其實都有討論那實際的演練應該請局長因為時間已經過了所以我也不好意思耽誤大家的時間那是不是給我們書面來跟我們簡單的報告一下這個沒問題那包含就是像是中國對立陶宛他們等國在外交政策的時候他有延遲清關增加檢疫程序刪除航班時段等等這些麻煩都把這些演練的狀況跟我們講一下好沒問題謝謝"},{"start":20112.437,"end":20138.508,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員不在習新穎委員 習新穎委員 習新穎委員不在李博義委員 李博義委員 李博義委員不在林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在黃國昌委員 黃國昌委員 黃國昌委員不在"},{"start":20141.052,"end":20164.822,"text":"好 以上登記執行委員經已發言完畢做以下決定一 報告及執行答詢完畢本會遊浩委員 林益菁委員 邱志維委員首提書面執行列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":20165.862,"end":20183.521,"text":"委員以執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未答詢之部分請交通部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆本日會議結束在這裡特別謝謝我們陳部長"},{"start":20185.723,"end":20196.182,"text":"跟所有的跟次長跟各位列席的官員跟我們記者朋友所以現在休息明天繼續開會謝謝 謝謝大家"},{"start":20202.766,"end":20203.406,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":20223.639,"end":20225.08,"text":"嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿"},{"start":20245.019,"end":20245.639,"text":"這也趕快掛線了"},{"start":20270.587,"end":20272.511,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":20288.148,"end":20295.812,"text":"那是你面對的 阿姆你懂一些教訓給阿姆聽 你還想說OK 我不去 我就先上去給阿姆聽阿姆聽 我就先上去"}]}},{"id":"16594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16594","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db9d3c58e6035bf089d3ce1f984cbe58114af80a8cb003b9bae07a36b3f2017a925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議議程（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長及財政部首長就「因應國際貿易情勢變化，如何協助國內廠商擴大國際市場」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-16T08:30:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-16T13:02:00+08:00","duration":16284,"影片長度":"04:31:24","委員發言時間":"08:30:36 - 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邀請經濟部部長 農業部部長及財政部首長就因應美國關稅政策以維持我國農漁畜業及關鍵產業競爭力之協助措施進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1912.621,"end":1937.844,"text":"農業部部長陳俊濟財政部政務次長李慶華及經濟部部長郭智輝報告後委員邱毅英等18人提出質詢進而經濟部部長郭智輝等及其答覆決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外區域均已發言完畢詢答結束二委員徐欣盈及謝一鳳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢的未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會上會宣布完畢"},{"start":1941.224,"end":1950.469,"text":"進行報告事項請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員經濟部部長及財政部首長就因應國際貿易情勢變化如何協助國內廠商擴大國際市場進行報告並備諮詢請國發會劉靜清主委報告"},{"start":1969.071,"end":1985.66,"text":"主席 各位委員先進大家早 今天承蒙貴會邀請本會列席就因應國際貿易情勢變化如何協助廠商擴大國際市場進行報告 敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":1987.595,"end":2003.212,"text":"這一波的川普的關稅有形成了五個趨勢第一個就是變化已經變成常態了就是我們會在一個變化多端的一個新世界裡面經營企業第二個是全球沒有可藏之處"},{"start":2005.274,"end":2026.534,"text":"幾乎所有的國家都有都有得到受到這個這個對等關稅的對待那低稅率的國家呢通常充滿了這個低供應鏈的基礎未必是一個可去之處那再來在競爭力呢會變成一個王道那在大家在共同的"},{"start":2028.075,"end":2045.222,"text":"這個稅率稅率的壓力之下如何去把自己的競爭力做好才能夠不隨風起舞那最後呢深耕市場是一個重要的機會那這個市場呢成如本期上市報告的在全球的進口市場大約是24.7兆進口市場美國佔進口市場約3.3兆大概是3.4"},{"start":2051.544,"end":2073.982,"text":"換句話說全球的進口市場還有86.6%在美國以外的地方那我們如何協助廠商去進取美國以外的地方同時也協助廠商如何回到台灣讓台灣這麼堅強的供應鏈基礎能夠作為台商的後盾是我們現在積極在打造的兩個方向所以"},{"start":2075.103,"end":2089.875,"text":"我們今天大概有兩個重點第一個是如何協助台商立足台灣鞏固台灣競爭優勢那首先我們必須要確保我們的供應鏈的優勢那這個供應鏈是我們過去幾十年累積下來的供應鏈基礎"},{"start":2090.615,"end":2118.068,"text":"那這個基礎其實坦白講它跟美商是一個完整的結合那這個結合上面呢也帶動了台灣在供應鏈上面的超強地位那我們因應全球的這個AI的局勢裡面我們希望讓台灣的供應鏈能夠維繫既有的優勢那要維繫這個優勢呢其實總共有三件事要做好第一件事情就是我們對市場的力道跟通路必須做得比較強一點"},{"start":2119.569,"end":2148.112,"text":"過去台商中小企業多半都是透過代理商那代理商像美國的代理商是沒有能力把我們的產品賣到美國以外的地方那所以呢通路的改變將會是台灣中小企業很重要的一個挑戰如何貼近市場掌握市場直接需要的如何建立一個強而有力的通路到世界上其他的國家去是我們這一波希望協助台商進行轉型的"},{"start":2148.692,"end":2165.661,"text":"第二個部分是產品的差異化如何面對市場創造更有競爭力的產品也是一個必須去改變的地方第三個部分第三個部分就是說如何讓我們的運作透過數位化讓我們的整體運作成本效率都能夠大幅的提升"},{"start":2166.321,"end":2182.436,"text":"甚至如何達到一定的經濟規模在成熟型的產品因為成熟型產品比較難創造差異化他必須規模經濟來來進行那這裡面呢也帶動了幾個重點第一個就是企業AI化的競爭力我們如何透過AI的競爭讓我們的企業"},{"start":2184.518,"end":2210.518,"text":"更有竞争力在运作效率上面包括在产品的设计上面带进AI的因素让我们的差异化产生透过AI掌握市场的变动知道市场在哪里怎么发生那不同的产业在全球整体而言都是一个平均的成长只是它在不同的国家会起起落落在先进的外资企业几乎都会去掌握每个国家的变动做适度的资源调动"},{"start":2211.098,"end":2231.559,"text":"但是透過經銷商的模式通常會掌握不到市場的變動而且只會掌握到某些特定的國家那對我們發展未來的世界是不容易的那再來就是在比較利益下台灣的確在相較東南亞的國家裡面包括中國來看我們是的確有一定的競爭力"},{"start":2232.56,"end":2261.736,"text":"而這個人輕又土輕的地方可以給臺商更好的資源所以我們也希望協助臺商能夠回到臺灣我們會提供在土地水電能力各方面的協助那讓他們能夠有更強的競爭能力那另外在推動我們也曾同時在推動產業站照製造基金我們希望透過製造基金的方式協助傳產能夠轉型那第二個大的主軸就是臺灣嘉義布局全球"},{"start":2262.475,"end":2281.987,"text":"在這一波下來除了新的市場必須去佈局之外有一個新的商機也會跟著出現就是很明顯的中美的對弈之中非紅供應鏈是明顯的逐步壯大那我們從去年開始在AI Server上面就逐漸看到替換中國供應鏈的部分一直在產生那這個產生下來到了"},{"start":2285.129,"end":2308.454,"text":"今年出現了白色半導體的這個白名單也不斷的在給台商更多的機會我想我們認為這樣的機會會出現的越來越多隨著美國的科技禁令那我們的商機會越來越多我們如何掌握這個飛鴻供應鏈龍路飛鴻供應鏈裡面的大商機是我們也是必須去掌握的那同時呢我們也會"},{"start":2311.301,"end":2329.257,"text":"這個台商在做全球的供應鏈佈局上面我們也會進行協助讓台灣能夠在全球供應鏈裡面扮演很重要角色達到我們總統日不落帝國的這個經濟目的那這個目的裡面當然也含我們對美國的大力投資跟支持台商往美國的發展"},{"start":2330.718,"end":2355.245,"text":"當然這是一個全球的做法再來就是在企業的多元市場的開拓要開拓多元市場就一定要掌握市場的商機所以經濟部現在也成立了台灣貿易投資中心我們也希望能夠協助一起找出比較好的基地然後協助廠商調整自己的供應鏈跟市場的目的抓到了目標市場 針對目標市場去設計產品"},{"start":2358.166,"end":2379.368,"text":"然後呢去做市場的開發那另外這幾年呢全球最有效率的銷售方式不再是人的拜訪而是數位的行銷那數位的展間所以我們也會透過輔導的方式透過數位化與AI化協助廠商去開拓市場那讓這個市場能夠真正被深耕"},{"start":2380.009,"end":2407.476,"text":"那面對這個川普市場的這個新情境呢那政府除了制定這些有效的策略以外我們會繼續強化跟利用我們的優勢跟盟國做更緊密的合作那透過飛鴻供應鏈的建立同時加強台美的經濟關係確保在全球供應鏈重組過程中台商能夠擁有這個一片天而且可以在經濟跟產業持續的發展讓我們在變局中站穩腳步以上報告"},{"start":2409.557,"end":2426.273,"text":"這個謝謝指導謝謝現在請經濟部郭智慧部長報告主席各位委員大家早"},{"start":2427.27,"end":2455.317,"text":"承蒙贵委员会的邀请就因应国际贸易情势变化如何协助国内厂商扩大国际市场进行报告敬请各位委员不吝视教美国川普总统在今年1月重返白宫之后延续美国优先的路线推出许多关税措施希望能够缩短贸易逆差以及促使制造业回流美国"},{"start":2456.462,"end":2478.031,"text":"目前在特定的产品关税方面已针对钢铝汽车课征25%关税在对等关税方面则宣布自4月5日起对所有的国家加征10%关税另对57个贸易顺差较高的国家加征11%到50%不等的税率其中台湾暂定税率是32%"},{"start":2480.037,"end":2498.491,"text":"随后由于中国采取反制措施川普政府于4月9日宣布将其对等关税累加至145%其余国家在未来的90日之内暂停原宣布的对等关税税率维持加增10%的基础税率"},{"start":2501.069,"end":2510.357,"text":"对国际贸易市场的影响我们的分析如下在川普政府的关税政策之下全球贸易体系将进入一个新的变局"},{"start":2511.653,"end":2535.675,"text":"前动全球贸易链的供应链的重大调整企业将面临产业线的转移寻找新的供应商等挑战由于全球贸易环境的不确定性升高可能影响企业及民众对经济的信心市场商降低资本支出民众减少消费降低国际贸易及全球经济的成长动能"},{"start":2536.641,"end":2559.204,"text":"世界貿易組織在本月評估美國關稅政策將使今年的全球商品貿易貿易量萎縮1%IMF認為該政策將為全球經濟前景帶來風險我商在當前國際貿易環境面臨的挑戰如下一 台灣經濟發展高度依賴對外貿易"},{"start":2560.68,"end":2584.523,"text":"美国的关税措施将对我国出口导向的产业形成压力目前的评估工业产品例如机械、工具机、手工具等产业可能由于成本增加影响获利传统产业受关税冲击影响也较为明显是政府以及经济部关注及协助的重点"},{"start":2586.495,"end":2607.425,"text":"為傾聽業界心聲及了解業界需求經濟部近兩週來密集安排與企業座談與多個工商團體舉辦產業座談會向業者說明美國關稅政策及行政院的因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案以確保政府政策能夠符合產業的需求"},{"start":2608.405,"end":2636.581,"text":"我近日陪同賴總統及行政院卓院長走訪桃園台中彰化高雄等受影響最深的傳統產業聚落了解產業需求業者都表示美國的關稅政策會因為產業屬性及廠商全球布局狀況而帶來不同的影響希望優先針對提供金融支持協助產品及技術升級擴大出口拓銷及近期出貨美國"},{"start":2637.984,"end":2658.513,"text":"的運輸安排等需求來給予協助針對如何協助國內廠商擴大國際市場經濟部另外透過外貿協會主動關懷業者收集與300家外銷企業的意見這些業者多關切美國訂單將有變化希望政府協助開拓美國及中國以外的國際市場"},{"start":2660.779,"end":2679.311,"text":"我们如何协助国内厂商扩大国际市场针对可能受美国关税影响的业者期待与需求政府已研明一系列的协助与辅导方案除了希望解决业者的燃眉之急也希望透过系统性的辅导方案开拓多元市场"},{"start":2680.151,"end":2695.574,"text":"协助业者取得国际订单以下分别说明经济部研拟的短中长期协助企业扩大国际市场的拓销措施在短期方面我们提供及时咨询的服务窗口"},{"start":2696.275,"end":2713.95,"text":"经济部已设置专人专线专网的服务窗口并将在国际专业展或者采购大会产业聚落等场合提供拓销投资布局产业升级等咨询服务让业者能够马上掌握到政府提供的协助方案"},{"start":2714.631,"end":2741.069,"text":"二 紧急协助争取新客户订单经济部属业权就川普关税政策严正一带并透过全球驻外单位扩大邀请各国买主来台采购定于本月23日举办Taiwan Select全球抢单大会届时将有包括德国 英国 韩国 日本等48国471位国外买主专程来台"},{"start":2746.111,"end":2771.737,"text":"1805家次企业与海外买主洽谈预估可以创造约5亿美元的商机为经济部协助受美国关税影响较大的机械精密零组件 锁工具 气配等产业经济部也特别安排于4月24日邀请至少50位海外买主前进中部产业重镇进行媒合洽谈"},{"start":2772.617,"end":2783.74,"text":"今年下半年规划分别于台中高雄重点产业聚落办理两场产业聚落抢单大会并将持续邀请国际买主深入机械零组件"},{"start":2785.174,"end":2812.944,"text":"水五金金屬製造擴建等產業聚落以精準鏈接買主需求呈現我商生產整合優勢顯示政府帶頭搶單助攻出口的行動決心另外鎖定國際五大排名第一的展覽辦理受影響產業的專屬活動例如於漢諾威木工機械展歐洲自行車展歐洲工具展"},{"start":2814.534,"end":2844.094,"text":"等新增设置台湾国家形象馆安排买主洽谈供应链展示区举办国际记者会新产品发表会等等使国际买主在数千家国家大厂名利的展览中更注意到我国企业与产品强化MIT形象并争取国际订单三支持出口供应链行政院已提出总额880亿元应应美国关税我国出口供应链支持方案"},{"start":2845.255,"end":2869.257,"text":"包括加码外销贷款保证、脱销海外市场等强化产业抗压与转型能力协助企业海外布局经济部将扩大协助企业在海外新设展示中心、服务维修中心、花货仓库及实体据点或新增代理商、经销商与拓展多元市场"},{"start":2870.216,"end":2894.628,"text":"二 外銷貸款優惠保證將針對出口企業擴大提供外銷貸款將優惠信用保證透過高保證陳述保證額度及補貼保證手續費降低業者採購原料生產出口周轉金等負擔三 中小微企業的貸款將受影響企業提供資金辦理周轉性支出及"},{"start":2895.936,"end":2917.11,"text":"购置机器设备贷款并搭配利息补贴及信用保证而在中长期方面协助企业强化全球布局经济部机器透过境外关内的策略带领台商布局全球市场优先聚焦中东欧、日本、美国、菲律宾等贸易伙伴"},{"start":2917.87,"end":2938.75,"text":"经济部于去年12月在捷克设立台湾贸易投资中心完成境外关内第一个海外服务据点第二个据点将在本月底于日本福冈设立今年下半年规划在美国成立第三个台湾贸易投资中心协助我国业者全球布局以共同的品牌来开拓国际市场"},{"start":2939.973,"end":2960.701,"text":"經濟部推出Taiwan Select共同品牌擴大海外通路,撥獲業界認同及支持未來將持續透過這項策略打造具高品質、安全、健康與永續發展形象的台灣產品未來經濟部將結合Taiwan Excellence在海外國際專業展設置台灣精品館"},{"start":2964.516,"end":2979.563,"text":"讓台製優質產品行銷全世界將評估與國外通路商合作配合產業需求在海外設立長期的展售點或維修中心在持續發掘潛在的商機方面為開發具潛力的國際商機經濟部除了積極發展"},{"start":2985.865,"end":3008.235,"text":"無人機在救災或物流之擴大應用亦將持續關注全球因氣候變化、天然災害、能源短缺、科技突破、政治局勢等因素衍生的防衛與安全、公共建設、醫療照護以及烏克蘭戰後重建等新商機5月份經濟部將結合Computax辦理資通訊政府採購洽談會下半年將舉辦國防軍工"},{"start":3013.777,"end":3030.317,"text":"智慧能源、水資源與環保主題的洽談會以發掘潛在的商機我政府的目標讓我國業者一、立足台灣二、布局全球三、加強美國式行銷全世界打造台灣成為經濟"},{"start":3032.392,"end":3051.985,"text":"日不落國面對經貿情勢變化政府將全力以赴制定有效因應對策確保經濟的穩定發展經濟部將持續跨部會合作與美方溝通確保我產業的利益外並關注美國關稅政策的變動"},{"start":3053.126,"end":3075.339,"text":"同时聆听各行各业的需求与挑战依产业意见滚动式调整政策强化产业的竞争力协助业者全球的布局以上报告敬请指教并祝各位委员生理健康万事如意谢谢谢谢现在请财政部李庆华次长报告"},{"start":3079.793,"end":3096.54,"text":"主席各位先敬大家早安那金融贵人会安排相关的部会就这个因应国际贸易形势的变化如何协助我们国内的厂商来扩大国际的市场进行报告那仅就涉及本部业务的部分呢仅要说明如下进行指教"},{"start":3097.06,"end":3116.42,"text":"首先我们持续配合政策协助我们的厂商国际布局那为了协助厂商国际布局呢我们的公股银行呢配合政策以金融支援产业协助厂商海外的发展以新南向的政策为例目前执行的情形如下我们中国输出的银行呢提供各项的专业金融的服务"},{"start":3116.88,"end":3141.677,"text":"包含了出口贷款与保证还有海外投资的融资海外营建工程与保证等专业的授信以及输出保险业务协助我国的厂商进居新南向的市场以113年度为例贷款的核准金额就高达新台币342.7亿元保证核准的金额也有40.35亿元输出保险的承保金额也有341.01亿元分别较111年度成长3%到10%"},{"start":3147.58,"end":3174.415,"text":"2左右那第二个部分呢输赢跟我们新南向地区有6个6国10家银行建立了转融资合作的关系提供1.87亿美元的转融资额度并透过系统整场及工程产业输出连带的平台从104年开始呢到114年3月底我们乘坐了新南向国家的案件就共有347件累计贷款以及保证的金额达到399.63亿元"},{"start":3176.896,"end":3203.438,"text":"那在其他各公股和银行部分呢我们也提供授信等金融服务扩大支援台商的能量其他的八家公股银行我们推动新南向业务的发展呢到114年3月底呢在新南向国家我们共设置了36家的分行21家的支行1家的子行以及20家的办事处来提供我们新南向这些业务的这个企业需要的授信余额达到8655.89亿元"},{"start":3206.5,"end":3224.31,"text":"另外我们也致力推动洽签所得税协定营造有利于台商全球布局的合理赋税环境我国目前签署生效的所得税协定达到35个包含了亚洲10国大洋洲3国欧洲16国非洲4国以及美洲2国"},{"start":3225.59,"end":3251.402,"text":"將持續配合台商全球布局的經貿或外交的需要與理念相近的國家來推動洽簽所得稅協定明明我國所得稅的協定網路那在因應美國對等關稅政策影響我國出口供應鏈支持措施部分呢我們提供出口廠商金融的支持包含了貿易融資利息解碼還有就是輸出保費的優惠那這個部分因為"},{"start":3252.342,"end":3271.238,"text":"在相关的部会都已经有做三万报告我们这边就不再重复赘述第二个呢就是简化通关的措施降低我们行政的成本从今年四月份开始呢我们保税业者呢按月会报关的作业呢可以免除减负装箱单也就是呢"},{"start":3272.119,"end":3287.519,"text":"保税业者出货每月只需要汇整申报一份的报单经过统计呢包含科学园区等1224家的业者每月可以减少制作约20万份的装箱单以及10万小时的作业时间降低业者的成本"},{"start":3288.16,"end":3305.802,"text":"第二个部分海关部分的作业也扩大实施远端集合也就是从今年4月份开始对于这些科学园区这些业者我们会透过保税智慧服务平台扩大实施远端集合减少监管海关实地的查核降低行政的干预"},{"start":3306.283,"end":3329.626,"text":"有助减轻业者的法尊成本那在租税优惠措施方面呢现行的产业创新条例已经针对各个产业提供多项的租税优惠那另外为了因应数位及绿色双轴转型协助企业呢因应国际经贸情势的转变行政院呢也在去年度就已经提出产业创新条例的修正草案延长了第十条之一"},{"start":3330.186,"end":3356.759,"text":"致激设备投资抵减的施行期间还有扩大了适用范围以及提高了支出的上限同时我们也修正了23条之一及23条之二来鼓励资金抑制新创事业的适用条件本部将持续关注产业发展以及国际情势配合产业政策来检讨我们的租税优惠措施给予企业支持以及维持国家经济成长的动能"},{"start":3357.279,"end":3384.687,"text":"另外財政部也提供了一些寬緩協助的措施包含在繳稅方面的協助措施那是因為如果遇到這個受到這個美國實施對等關稅政策的衝擊不能在稅捐繳納期間內一次繳清應繳稅款的話呢可依稅捐金款的規定像我們的基金機關呢申請延期或者是分期繳納稅款延期最長可達一年分期最長可達三年也就是可以分成36期來繳納"},{"start":3386.528,"end":3409.522,"text":"另外为了减轻我们企业以及民众申报缴纳所得税的压力本部已经规划延长我们今年的报税所得税的结算申报期间到6月底此外在公股银行的协助措施方面呢我们本部也督导我们的公股银行依据这个金管会办理对于企业的融资宽缓的措施就符合条件的部分呢提供展延借款的年期"},{"start":3410.342,"end":3426.408,"text":"或者是環交本席的協助來減輕企業資金的壓力另外我們自己公股銀行也用自有的資金來辦理中小及微型企業的振興融資方案這個部分也會持續辦理為我們中小微企業的穩健經營創新與轉型升級提供金融的支援"},{"start":3429.409,"end":3457.508,"text":"那对于因应这个美国对等关税政策的冲击本部已经提供上方上开相关的措施来协助我们国内的厂商因应国际经贸情势的改变并且扩大国际的市场那公股银行也会持续提供相关金融支援措施来希望能够这个协助我们的企业并且我们也会跟随来营造合宜稳定及保障的租税环境来协助企业因应变局降低贸易的风险"},{"start":3458.068,"end":3485.763,"text":"提升厂商全球布局下的国际竞争力以上报告敬请各位委员会议指教谢谢现在进行询答委员询答前主席原力作以下宣告每位委员发言时间本会委员6分钟必要时得延长2分钟非本会委员5分钟上午10点30分截止发言登记首先请邱毅英委员做询答"},{"start":3500.397,"end":3505.04,"text":"谢谢主席我请一下经济部郭部长"},{"start":3514.622,"end":3532.034,"text":"委員長部長早部長我想這幾天經過了這個上沖下洗這個可能不只經濟部國發會甚至整個政府團隊都一直在面對關稅的問題不斷的變動不斷的調整包括豁免的部分到底這些豁免"},{"start":3532.975,"end":3546.466,"text":"我們的半導體的豁免到底有沒有聽說川普總統自己親自出來打臉說他們的這個部長發布的這個是假新聞喔所以到底這個豁免關稅的部分有沒有經濟部的掌握是什麼"},{"start":3550.072,"end":3567.07,"text":"這一部分我想我們有確認確認這個美國啦但是我們確認也是美國的這個確實是美國的這個海關發出來的訊息是但是但是也不知道他到底是不是真的因為總統又出來否認"},{"start":3568.271,"end":3588.261,"text":"不過我要今天要請教就是說其實面對這樣的一個國際局勢或者是說美國在關稅的部分一直不斷地做變動當然大家都在尋求解決之道包括今天國發會經濟部甚至財政部的報告內容大概都會談到很多我們對於廠商對於產業的協助"},{"start":3592.003,"end":3618.101,"text":"那這個我們也看到這個國民黨的這個應對政策包括他們的主席帶領的幾位縣市長出來那他們的應對政策第一個就是說要恢復入客來台觀光刺激台灣的經濟部長我看到你在偷笑這個我個人是覺得我們現在在拼的是產業拼的是整體面對國際局勢"},{"start":3620.902,"end":3637.359,"text":"但是為什麼他們想到的都是要拚那個小的比如說一定要入客來台灣觀光這個跟國家的安全跟產業的韌性我們在談到的產業韌性其實那個觀念上面那個做法上面是有很大的落差嘛"},{"start":3639.417,"end":3661.968,"text":"那我們要談的我想接下來要跟您談的比較嚴肅的問題喔 洗產地這個大概是我們很多的產業界都非常的關心包括卓院長前兩天在演說的時候也特別談到洗產地到底我們有沒有準備好面對未來的這一波可能的洗產地風險來 部長"},{"start":3664.279,"end":3691.492,"text":"報告委員我們對洗產地這個命題是非常的這個嚴謹以待因為這個是美國也非常關注這個也牽扯到我們在談判上面是不是具有這樣的一個讓美國可以完全信任的這樣的一個程度所以跟委員報告我們大概對這個違規轉運來洗產地這個我們大概有四項這個具體的做法第一項就是我們監測進口量"},{"start":3693.713,"end":3720.262,"text":"就是我们进口的这些产品那跟苏美的产品做对接 勾击第二个 重演处罚当然每一件最高可以罚到300万而且取消它进出口的资格第三个 加强反倾销的调查那这个部分我们已经委托工种辅导厂商来做一些提告那当然最重要的这个厂商会讲说你都没说啊"},{"start":3721.222,"end":3738.296,"text":"為什麼就直接對我們採取這樣的措施所以我們現在目前不斷的加強對業者的宣導那麼第一場已經在4月15號舉行大概有600人參加你們是針對哪一些的業者你們第一場的宣導是針對哪一些哪一個是比較正相關比較擔心的"},{"start":3740.666,"end":3761.504,"text":"我們現在大概就是對我們這一次業者比較擔心的包括工具機、扣件這一類的業者先跟他們講因為他們有一些材料會從中國進來來加工我接下來就是要請教您的就是這個工具機或者是扣件其實扣件業者面臨到的衝擊應該是算是在海嘯第一排"},{"start":3762.625,"end":3790.402,"text":"他們其實像這些扣件業者在3月12號開始已經受到關稅已經漲到25%的影響那未來鋼材會不會大量的傾銷中國的鋼材會不會大量的傾銷到台灣來我們對於這些反傾銷的措施包括部長您剛剛講的那些其實過去都有在做未來我們要做的可能是加鹽加大茶器的力道但是對廠商來講成本的負擔"},{"start":3792.146,"end":3810.26,"text":"這個是一件事情那如何保護我們的這些扣件業者我們談到了那個880億的部分現在是說行政院本來是這個禮拜四會通過特別條例那現在要暫緩一週所以暫緩的部分"},{"start":3811.121,"end":3838.894,"text":"包括你的這些產業我們剛剛講到的這個扣件業者會不會也納入我們的這個輔導的範圍之內我們因為透過幾次的座談會然後由這個業者來反映他們目前的狀況那我們就是因為斟酌他們的這個反應的情形在做一些調整那我相信扣件業者的這些反應的這些訊息都會作為我們參考來做一些如何紓困"},{"start":3840.094,"end":3867.897,"text":"如果他們碰到問題如果紓困我要跟委員報告就是說我們這一次是比較能夠具體的根據每一家廠商受困的情形不一樣給以充分的這個協助這個是政府的態度所以我們應該是希望他們能夠度過目前這個90天以後可能會遭受到一些如果"},{"start":3868.778,"end":3896.488,"text":"我們也希望他能夠得到一些公平的這些競爭的這個位置那所以我們各方面都在努力啦那我們也會幫助他轉移這個訂單如果美國的這個市場我們沒有辦法繼續耕耘的話我們希望能夠開拓美國以外的市場等等各種的情況我們都在進行但是第一個重點就是說當他發生有營運上面的困擾的時候"},{"start":3897.848,"end":3915.429,"text":"政府第一個要做的事情就是紓困政府第一個要做的事情應該不是紓困應該是你們要跟財政部講好是不要抽銀根因為有的業者他不見得是要你紓困但有的業者他的這些銀行的貸款等等的"},{"start":3916.87,"end":3940.689,"text":"它會面臨到銀行第一時間就抽銀根所以其實包括那天部長您在我們在高雄的辦的這個產業座談會裡頭院長親自下來本席也都一直提到這個跟財政部跟金管會之間的溝通協調抽銀根這個事情一定是要一定是要能夠充分掌握而且千萬不要發生在我們的業者身上"},{"start":3941.269,"end":3966.039,"text":"是 報告委員我跟你講這個雨天不收傘這個是院長的指示啦所以具體的做法就是舊有的貸款展延這樣的一個命題來講的話如果企業他有繼續經營的意願而且順利的繳息那個票債信你一樣我們第一個階段先讓他延六個月先讓他延六個月那麼採取繳息不還本的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":3967.62,"end":3989.698,"text":"那這個信保基金配合展延這樣的一個保證那我們也會讓銀行加速處理這個過程所以這點跟委員報告我想我們第一階段先讓它展延六個月然後我們再看後面實際的狀況運作是怎麼樣再來提如果有必要的話我們做第二波的這個"},{"start":3990.539,"end":4006.928,"text":"那我接下來要請教我們剛剛講的這些東西大概都直接從你們從這個經濟部或者是從財政部那地方政府的角色是什麼你總不能又讓地方的這些縣市長又出來開記者會說我們希望入客來台觀光所以地方政府的角色是什麼"},{"start":4007.148,"end":4034.123,"text":"你比如說像陳其邁市長已經邀集了業界座談過幾次大概市政府也擬定了一些政策要如何來協助這些產業那其他的地方呢比如說工具機比較多的台中市或者是沙崙或者台南嘉義等等這些縣市政府他們能夠扮演什麼樣的角色去協助這些廠商或者是說經濟部跟他們有沒有什麼樣的對接"},{"start":4035.604,"end":4056.638,"text":"報告委員我們跟地方政府的工業會或者是當地的工協會我們都去直接去跟他們呼籲開座談會直接了解我想中央政府跟地方政府我們會密切的配合我認為有一些政策的宣導應該是要"},{"start":4057.679,"end":4074.664,"text":"透過地方政府或者是透過剛剛部長您所說的這一些公策會公協會等等去不斷的讓這些廠商知道政府現在最新的措施是什麼最新的協助是什麼那他們面臨到的問題是什麼能夠及時的回報那經濟部或者是國發會我們也才能夠及時的去做滾動的修正才能夠去做及時的反應"},{"start":4083.007,"end":4109.519,"text":"所以我想這個國際的經濟局勢瞬息萬變很多的訊息早上講的跟晚上看到的又不太一樣所以他都必須要非常的及時的去做這些事情所以我們可能所有的工作同仁都會面臨到極大的壓力這個工時可能都會拉長但是不管怎麼樣要協助我們的廠商在最短的時間內去適應去調整甚至我們要去做到讓我們的廠商的"},{"start":4110.779,"end":4129.748,"text":"損害是降到最低我想這個會是經濟部跟國發會接下來這段時間很重要的一個工作我們會努力好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝現在先確定上次會議議事錄有無錯誤沒有好議事錄確定現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":4147.054,"end":4167.652,"text":"委員長部長好那麼輝達宣布要跟台積電在美投資5000億美元您昨天也說了台灣只有兩種公司也就是做EMS的代工的鴻海跟偽創那台積電封裝的也會過去細品也可能會去直導"},{"start":4168.893,"end":4188.458,"text":"當然你也強調台灣廠商要去美國都會關注那台灣的技術更要嚴守我們的技術本位留在台灣不會過去這是你昨天的回答所以請教未來台灣還有哪些產業會加大在美國的投資"},{"start":4189.318,"end":4208.275,"text":"因為您一直說會希望是以產業鏈國家隊的方式來赴美所以請教規劃跟措施到目前為止的進展是如何請說明報告委員我們現在目前因為就像您剛才所指導的這個指教的這個每天的這個變化非常的大對"},{"start":4209.276,"end":4226.074,"text":"那这个NVIDIA的5000亿美元的投资那跟这个Apple5000亿美元的投资跟那么其他的美国很多的这个厂商七大科技厂商的这种高金额的投资啊"},{"start":4227.219,"end":4241.078,"text":"我們都在關注那台灣非常在目前的狀況因為我們台灣跟美國的科技業其實是高度的互整互相的配合的互相的關聯的"},{"start":4242.279,"end":4263.824,"text":"所以在这个方面台湾的厂商如何在透过这个市场的需求而造成全球的移动这个是必然的一个趋势在这个必然的趋势当中也就是我们是否会预期更多的台湾的半导体产业链会到美国那我们要如何严守我们的技术优势呢"},{"start":4264.204,"end":4282.686,"text":"我們的技術優先我們會在因為我們所有的對外投資經濟部能夠把關的地方就在我們的投審會那麼投審會有各個部會的同仁參加我們會對於國家安全對技術保障在這方面"},{"start":4283.086,"end":4301.626,"text":"這一點很重要我要謝謝部長這個嚴守我們的技術優勢這一點是非常的重要那除此之外台灣到你們目前的盤點還有其他的向下標的會加速去投資嗎"},{"start":4304.264,"end":4329.443,"text":"哪一方面在你们的产业你盘点的这些产业那对于在美国的投资是不是还有比较具体的哪一类型的有可能会加大的来投资这一部分我们没有办法去推论跟委员报告也就是说美国大概在世界上面领先的部分大概都是在软体科技业了"},{"start":4330.287,"end":4350.578,"text":"那或者是在這種高科技的設計業那這一部分其實跟我們的製造要移動其實是要相當大的這個協商所以目前在你們的評估判斷當中除了半導體電子業大概是這個方向是不是"},{"start":4351.687,"end":4367.435,"text":"我們目前來講這一部分就是看美國他們現在的政府的立場他需要達到什麼樣的一個目的是不是全部都到美國去生產我們也不認為是這個樣子因為這裡面"},{"start":4370.017,"end":4385.157,"text":"就這一個不認為是這個樣子所以因為訊息萬變所以這段時間我相信經濟部是最辛苦的我們必須要嚴正以待因為產業界真的很緊張所以接下來本席要請教的也就是說從紓困"},{"start":4386.559,"end":4402.205,"text":"一開始在關稅議題顯現出來的時候本席就強調對外的談判對內的紓困這是非常非常重要我要謝謝部長在上一次我們委員會的時候您正式回答說絕對不能雨中收傘"},{"start":4403.345,"end":4430.924,"text":"而且要寬 重寬 重塑那所以呢我們看到呢這個紓困的部分呢我要謝謝我們的謝昭偉在禮拜一的時候經濟委員會我們也到了台中因為台中是非常重要的這個工具機 手工具機 擴建零組件 木工機 自行車業這一些的產業 航太產業我相信在中部地區我們塑造了數兆以上的一個產值 所以"},{"start":4432.225,"end":4435.027,"text":"也換句話說 中部的產業穩 等於台灣的經濟動脈也會更加的有利那顧產業就是顧名聲嘛 因為這個是非常的一連貫的連結所以本席要具體建立 也就是在紓困的這個部分我們應當要設立一個單一窗口"},{"start":4455.459,"end":4475.21,"text":"因為未來這個紓困包括了產業界不管是海關不管是財政部不管是我們經濟部自己的方向跟政策一個政府就是一個單一窗口因為廠商界現在最危急的最害怕的是什麼未知未知比如說我們現在的海運"},{"start":4476.391,"end":4500.56,"text":"他們說競速拉貨但是這個海運漲得不得了而且排船不一定排得到在這樣的情況之下政府應該要有責任出面來協助所以我具體首先建議也就是說在這一段時間大家努力辛苦所做出的這些政策跟方針跟方法我們應該要有單一窗口來協助我們所有的產業請教"},{"start":4501.92,"end":4520.636,"text":"是啊報告委員這個我們會朝你這樣的一個建議啊是來來來協商感謝感謝因為這裡面跨很多的單位對對對單一窗口所以我們會來協商那如果是中小微企業的話因為我們中小企業署啊它本身就是有一個中小企業保證基金是這是另外一個部分我們有一個經濟部的馬上辦對對對"},{"start":4524.659,"end":4551.156,"text":"但是部長本席清楚你馬上辦的這個部分它只是一部分但是未來我們整個談判的過程當中廠商所需要協助我也感謝部長您說一定要跨部會的來成立一個位階提升來成立一個單一窗口這個訊息出去讓我們的產業界它會比較安心會比較安心這個我們會來跟其他的單位來做一個溝通來整合"},{"start":4551.696,"end":4569.256,"text":"就像您所指教的這個馬上辦服務中心我們會擴大它的這個功能對 做一個單一窗口橫向的組織也就是應變小組能夠快速解決它的問題是 非常感謝但是我們看到大家有一個心聲也就是傳統產業跟中小企業佔我們的人口"},{"start":4570.097,"end":4597.816,"text":"劳动人口的九成那我们到目前为止大家都认为政府的资源多重在这个半导体电子业传统产业跟中小企业似乎没有受到重视大家一致的心声所以我也看到在我们880亿当中首先要请教因为延后来宣布我们也知道在整个关税的谈判当中还有很多的挑战"},{"start":4598.956,"end":4620.923,"text":"那請教我認為880億根本不足為道那所以要請教喔部長880億昨天我們在總諮詢的時候院長也說會因應方向所以我具體建議具體的請問我們的880億是否會加碼如果有必要的話"},{"start":4622.203,"end":4633.108,"text":"會加碼好 這個跟行政院院長昨天答覆本席的是一樣有必要就是要加碼那在我們整個中小企業的部分也務必要加碼對不對是我要謝謝部長你這麼說所以我們昨天討論的"},{"start":4638.59,"end":4666.949,"text":"中小企业的这个围形的部分我们现在在881里头我们只有提51这是不够的这个数额必须再去盘点再去增加因为这个就是最基础的你稳定了整个中小企业等于稳定了就业等于稳定了我们的家庭接住了我们的家庭这是非常的重要整体我们可以运用的这个中小企业的钱是410亿"},{"start":4669.291,"end":4683.061,"text":"對 410億當中昨天你也回答了你還有一個200億的200億你包括的是補助研發轉型但是部長我要跟你討論的在我們中部地區裡頭我們這些工具機手工具機零組件我們的"},{"start":4685.522,"end":4710.707,"text":"扣件等等我們的自行車我們的航太大家非常的緊張非常的緊張所以我相信這一個數絕對是不夠的除了方法精進我們更要將數額來增加就成為你剛才所說的四情況來加碼因為我們知道這個產業這個數量比較多所以我們會"},{"start":4712.678,"end":4718.144,"text":"趕快去解決這些問題就直接在您剛才講的這幾個精密加工的部分我們會來趕快去解決這個問題一個重點也就是說不要讓我們的中小企業傳統產業做了這麼多的苦工政府理當應該要協助輔導尤其在這個時間所以一定不可以忽視了我們的傳統產業跟中小企業"},{"start":4737.302,"end":4750.272,"text":"我們不會忽視傳統產業跟中小企業而且一定要重視這是我們國人的產業我們都一定是重視的一定是重視好加油謝謝是謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在請林黛嬅委員做詢答好有請國發會組委跟郭部長劉組委郭部長"},{"start":4770.458,"end":4799.254,"text":"好 本席想了解这次美中关税大战当中到底在这个习产地很明显这是一个重点那习产地的政策目前是什么那个郭部长跟主委这边你们回应一下是 报告委员我想习产地的部分我们会有四个重点第一个重点就是对这个习产地的部分我们第一个对监测进口量"},{"start":4800.694,"end":4821.926,"text":"監測進口量就是跟輸出美國的這個產品做全面的勾結把它勾結出來第二個當有這個現象的時候我們重研加法那麼最高可以罰到300萬甚至於取消它的進出口商的資格第三個加強反傾銷的調查那麼這個我們已經委託工業總會輔導廠商來提告"},{"start":4825.708,"end":4846.986,"text":"那第四個加強業者的宣傳我想這個很多的業者他可能不清楚所以我們加強這個業者宣傳第一個在第一場呢針對這個工具區啊這個扣件業我們在4月15號有舉行大概有600人參加那麼今年至少會趕緊來辦理大概預定目標是18場"},{"start":4847.867,"end":4867.489,"text":"好部長您這四個方案我覺得還不夠徹底還不夠根本本席在這邊建議這個短期作為你們這個尤其在短期作為當中本席認為在這個短中長期你們的做法其實我是認同的尤其在你們報告當中也很清楚的寫到要協助廠商進度美國市場"},{"start":4868.55,"end":4894.731,"text":"那除了台湾除了半导体之凶性之外部分的传统产业食品农业制造业的加工在美国市场跟中国是有高度的同质性既然是危机是危险也是机会所以本次除了对美国谈判应该争取较有利的条件如果开拓新市场除了美国之外的新市场来分散集中风险这也是我这本席要提醒要注意的所以针对习产业当中"},{"start":4895.211,"end":4907.036,"text":"本席建立我們政府直接應該評估積極的加速全球標準組織GSI這是美國推動的各級產業的產品生產履歷全球標準化所以為什麼要請國發會來因為今天不是只有經濟部包括農業包括任何各行各業"},{"start":4921.221,"end":4938.169,"text":"的這個產品他推了一個所謂的生產履歷那這個生產履歷標準是跨各行各業的那這是美國在推動的全球標準的組織CSI他所推動那我們尚未加入所以你們應該積極的去了解這個議題也認為這個是應該趕快積極加入的話所有稀產地全部都解決了我從他的生產地這是從越南來的這是從哪一個國家來的"},{"start":4948.014,"end":4958.463,"text":"清清楚楚他已經跳脫你的這個QR Code的這種這個不管是一維還是二維的概念了他已經是整個全球產品各產業所以他裡面的標準有4000多種的標準所以我不曉得部長跟主委這邊知道這個訊息嗎"},{"start":4971.401,"end":4998.128,"text":"報告委員這個全球標準組織GSI這個部分到目前為止我想我們並沒有用這個標準來衡量那我想我們會參考這個其實在我辦公室其實有跟你們產發署的同仁有做一個初步那你們也說你們不知道所以應該趕快帶回去研究那如果這個的話根本就是你剛講的四個作為從邊境的管制"},{"start":4999.108,"end":5028.868,"text":"包括你相關那個四個作為那其實要花下更多的很多的人力啊但是如果你跟上這個全球的組織這個全球標準化的組織的時候你各行各業你的從產地運輸到加工包括你到你的最終點不管是不是到美國你到即使到歐盟這是全球唯一的美國在推動的一個全球的標準組織那你就全部都迎刃而解了我覺得這個才是根本你在解決洗產地的方法"},{"start":5030.629,"end":5046.736,"text":"這個這個就那部長您這邊包括國發會你要跨部會的協調你們的做法是什麼針對這個議題你們要趕快啟動你們的評估啊包括部長我們可以深入了解就這個標準大概是全球標準組織但是"},{"start":5047.476,"end":5059.444,"text":"美國還是真的全球每一個國家都有納入譬如說像WTO它有納入這樣的我們會深刻的去瞭解謝謝委員我覺得這個也稱為可以變成是你們跟美國談判的一個籌碼"},{"start":5064.247,"end":5071.955,"text":"那另外呢這個中期的部分呢我們政府要扮演產業升級轉型這個其實在郭部長這邊您其實也做得很積極那包括這個農業部的部分包括豬隻來講我也這個一直倡議要這個精準的"},{"start":5080.763,"end":5089.847,"text":"異因育種 那也希望提升租資的一個生產效益 包括農業部本身整個決策都應該指揮化 包括也針對國發基金當中 本席也對我們主委這邊有提到應該要在相關的要重視這個傳統產業跟中小企業好 這個針對國發會"},{"start":5100.332,"end":5121.663,"text":"70年代國家經濟會的長遠發展才有1987年的台積電成立進化成為所謂護國神山那其實晶片產業重點是它能夠帶動電子跟直通訊的蓬勃發展其實我晶片對美粗糙的占比我才4.5%而真的帶給我們台灣國家利益的是晶片所帶動的直通訊電子產業我粗糙達64.5%"},{"start":5126.585,"end":5148.299,"text":"所以山頂只有一點 山頂 山體才是堅如磐石的關鍵讓台灣成為產業鏈中不可或缺的關鍵角色作為規劃國家發展策略的統合機關國發會您在佈局下一個護國神山當中您的下一個世代的長期策略規劃我們再回顧一下"},{"start":5149.079,"end":5150.48,"text":"台積電成為復活神山的原始背景是在於長期的市場調查那時候美國他放棄了晶片的代工我們國家認為他放棄然後他也探尋了張忠謀等"},{"start":5165.653,"end":5169.775,"text":"相關的這些人才既然美國放棄那這些人才在美國生根那就把他們也認為這是前景可為所以就回國那我們做了一個世界調查當中之後人家不做我們認為有前景的才造就了這件事情"},{"start":5183.701,"end":5188.687,"text":"好 那現在我們政府這個的下一個復國神山這樣的一個產業規劃我不曉得國發會這邊有沒有什麼的一個規劃或者是一個什麼想法或者有什麼啟動"},{"start":5198.65,"end":5217.425,"text":"我們有兩件事在做第一個是強化既有的護國神山韌性譬如說我們在半導體的特用化學跟這個零組件的部分設備的部分我們會去強化它的韌性那另外一個是我們在規劃更多的護國神山其實台灣現在"},{"start":5218.786,"end":5241.175,"text":"已經有多個譬如說AI是我們的新的復國神山譬如說ICT是我們的新復國神山它有一個基準點我們用兩個構面去看它第一個構面是這個產業具不具備國際競爭力已經具備國際競爭力又有一定的市佔率的時候我們就會以它為發展把它的全球市佔率擴大因為全球市佔率擴大才能影響到全球但是沒有國際競爭力是"},{"start":5242.775,"end":5251.5,"text":"難以做全球市佔率你認為當時在台積電美國放棄的當下我國投入的時候是有一個已經有一個基礎的市佔率嗎"},{"start":5254.304,"end":5282.348,"text":"這是中期的一個發展另外一個長期是它有一個長遠的未來那我剛剛提到的AI就是未來很重要的一個長期的發展那我們這些都會去考慮進來好所以你政府對我們在技術上我們有三個大的方向第一個是矽光子的產業量子的產業再來是自主化機器人就是全部自動化的那自主化機器人這三個產業是我們在未來如果您用長期來看是我們長期在"},{"start":5282.968,"end":5305.908,"text":"在發展的對象那我們現在也規劃了政策好OK那我想對於帕蘇我想這次還是就既有現在的產業趨勢當中去做我們下一個世代的富國深山的規劃但是本席想要講的是你對於全球的市場規劃當中接近台積電的這樣的一個市場"},{"start":5306.348,"end":5324.751,"text":"他當時是被放棄的也可能當時也不被認為有任何的被美國放棄而且在全球當中他也不具任何的一個市場全景的情況之下我們台灣積極的投入因為我們的徵詢的類相關的人才都認為他可能會是一個"},{"start":5325.712,"end":5340.42,"text":"一個未來的一個很有潛力的產業所以其實這也是沒有人是神啦所以其實這也是但是我覺得不要除了在你現有的產業當中去爬出所謂的護國神山之外是不是有更這樣的一個寬闊而且有一個非常長遠視野的來替國我們台灣下一世代護國神山來做產業規劃好 那以上 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":5350.711,"end":5368.469,"text":"好谢谢在张琪凯委员询答结束后我们休息五分钟现在请陈婷飞委员做询答谢谢主席我们请部长经济部长国部长"},{"start":5375.543,"end":5388.892,"text":"委員長部長好我想最近一個議題就是說川普要針對半導體藥品來徵關稅要啟動232調查232項的這樣的一個調查的部分232調查這個部分要怎麼辦報告委員這個232調查我們現在這個產發署都已經有進入這樣一個模擬的狀況"},{"start":5401.974,"end":5431.332,"text":"有模拟状况有模拟状况怎么模拟状况首先对半导体的课税我们大概有四个方向第一个就是美国政府正在进行国安的调查所以我们也在关切密切的关注这样的一个调查第二个我们政府也因为美国在调查这件事情所以我们也在布局看到这个调查的结果会怎么样第三个积极跟美国的政府协商为什么"},{"start":5431.872,"end":5439.336,"text":"因為台灣的這個半導體跟美國的用戶是高度的相關因為美國他們是做設計我們是做這個開發跟製造所以這個東西"},{"start":5448.081,"end":5466.875,"text":"合作關係 合作關係很深所以我們跟美國是這個策略上面的夥伴根據這四個命題我們都是高度的跟美國在做協商希望這個稅 美國課稅結果他的目的沒有達成反而傷到我們台灣"},{"start":5467.735,"end":5486.011,"text":"這個部分其實現在大家都在看因為依照1962年貿易擴張法的第232條那這232調查就是依照這個部分要去重新對於我們半導體及相關製造設備去做調查那就像部長所說的其實"},{"start":5486.952,"end":5509.967,"text":"我們跟美國是策略聯盟的關係他是設計我們是在製造的一個強項所以在這樣的一個前提之下我們怎麼把這個平台建立好然後可以用協商的用動之以情也好或是用夥伴合作的角度也好我覺得大家都在看所以這是個面向"},{"start":5511.209,"end":5525.73,"text":"剛剛部長所講的是四個面向我們到底目前有掌握了多少的優勢你認為呢我們現在是這樣子因為其實跟委員報告因為我們自己說不好我們最大有影響的是我們的客人"},{"start":5527.762,"end":5554.347,"text":"用客人用客戶用客戶跟我們政府互相來幫忙表達給美國的政府了解所以這個給美國政府能夠了解這裡的經營就是對我們台灣我們在講這個關稅就靠大家在認知沒有差異的情況之下決定一個對我們台灣有競爭力的關稅所以部長你剛剛說客戶很重要"},{"start":5554.907,"end":5582.575,"text":"就是說我們這一次的所謂一個協商的團隊我們其實應該把這些我們企業體也應該要加入也就是客戶端他們其實是很重要的所以如果這樣的一個協商團不只是政府還有民間的力量我覺得我們會越成功這個部分可能要請部長在這段時間可能跟這些企業體密切的"},{"start":5583.516,"end":5598.215,"text":"結合甚至因為部長是來自企業界我相信這個部分你非常的了解如何利用客戶的心理客戶的心理來讓他們的政府好好的在這個平台當中去做對談"},{"start":5599.497,"end":5615.545,"text":"然後彼此互利這才是重要不是哪一方得利而是要彼此互利所以這個部長在麻煩那因為我們也清楚現在90天這10%的關稅大概這是一個"},{"start":5616.545,"end":5636.142,"text":"一個基底那這個基底我們對於這個基底有多少的廠商有受到影響我們有沒有調查過之前我們是針對32%那現在基本上90天以10%為這樣的基底那麼這個基底大概川普也說了這個基底也不會降"},{"start":5637.464,"end":5655.081,"text":"大概也很難只是說在幾個我們的業別去做調整而已那麼好我們有沒有瞭解有多少的產業會因為這10%受到影響是 報告委員我們大概在過去的兩個禮拜裡面透過市場的這個跟"},{"start":5656.863,"end":5673.878,"text":"總統還有行政院院長一起開的這個座談會還有我們經濟部同仁去拜訪各個的這個工協會我們大概以10%的關稅來講大家當然也有一些廠商有受到一些影響對就是在這個部分那這個部分呢他們有特別講說"},{"start":5675.439,"end":5685.006,"text":"只要跟競爭國是站在同一個起跑線這個他們不擔心他們比較擔心的是我們10%別人0%這樣子對他們來講就馬上有10%的距離所以部長這就是關鍵競爭力是"},{"start":5693.032,"end":5713.943,"text":"其實就是說大家如果齊頭是都OK但是呢如果有不一樣的所以我覺得我們會希望了解哪些廠商受到影響就是說我們在這幾個區塊是不是會被漏掉是 報告委員我們在產發署他們的努力情況之下我們都會把我們的競爭果"},{"start":5715.663,"end":5735.053,"text":"把這些資料然後呈送給這個談判的這個小組讓他們做參考那麼也積極的跟美國那邊做溝通就是說這個部分我們希望因為我們跟美國在很多的這個科技也好其他的各種方面也好"},{"start":5735.473,"end":5754.167,"text":"都是很多是非常好的这个关系我们希望透过这样子让美国能够充分的了解台湾是他的国家关系部长其实现阶段我们的资料要越详细是给谈判的这些代表让我们清楚我们台湾现在的优势在哪里劣势在哪里"},{"start":5754.747,"end":5778.943,"text":"讓他們很清楚了解那這些一些基本的基底資料你們才有所以我們會希望你們要把這些資料很具體的呈現然後如何分散我們在整個出口產業的風險這也是另外一個區塊好就是說我們如何分散如何找尋更好的一些出口的對象"},{"start":5779.764,"end":5791.401,"text":"然後我們行銷的對象這也是一個重點然後我要給部長看一個資料這是昨天新的一個民調也就是說大家對於"},{"start":5792.796,"end":5810.506,"text":"我們政府要如何穩住人民的信心指數當然現在台灣人對川普的這個部分是非常沒有辦法接受覺得說台灣人這個美國川普總統對新關稅的政策其實覺得不合理的有81.9%可是認為我們的政府"},{"start":5816.89,"end":5834.93,"text":"應該要有更對於對應的回應這個部分認為有贊成的是43.9%不贊成的是40.8%也就是一個信心指數我所講的這是信心指數就是說我們這段時間所做的大家還是會有點擔憂"},{"start":5836.371,"end":5851.304,"text":"包括農業大家會覺得說我們是不是在談判桌上會被扒第二層皮或是多層皮然後呢也有今天車輛工會因為我們汽車零組件非常的強是不是會造成有30萬人會失業"},{"start":5853.446,"end":5882.626,"text":"這就是信心指數的問題今天我會在這最後跟部長來討論就是說我們應該要人民的信心回復讓他們做為我們最強的後盾這才是最重要的是的所以部長這個就是說我們希望你們提供更多的資料產業的資料企業的資料給我們談判的代表讓他們清楚台灣的優勢在哪裡我們要怎麼去跟美國談判我們的劣勢在哪裡"},{"start":5883.366,"end":5903.462,"text":"第二 我們要分散我們的風險 也就是出口風險這也是我們應該現在要做的第三 恢復我們的信心指數因為我們一定要把這些出口的比重分散而且我們要搶中國在美國的市場"},{"start":5904.858,"end":5932.808,"text":"因為中國現在跟美國這樣的一個角色已經很清楚了大概很難中國可以進到美國去做這些所謂他們過去運籌帷幄的這些市場端那麼我們要怎麼去取得這個部分這個也是另外一個重點是 這個我們都有在模擬那有各種的方向那如何切入因為中國它失去這個市場以後它可能會溢出到其他的市場"},{"start":5933.368,"end":5962.184,"text":"这个都是动态的报告委员我们产发署都有做这方面的模拟这个模拟很重要所以你们任何的模拟就是要让我们的人民更有信心去support你们然后更有竞争力能够让我们去抢所谓国外的市场这个才是我们现在要帮忙我们产业界跟人民在未来商业的一些变动"},{"start":5963.024,"end":5966.63,"text":"所給的一個信心力量好 再拜託部長謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請張其凱委員做詢答"},{"start":5996.015,"end":5996.075,"text":"國務委員好"},{"start":6008.369,"end":6024.036,"text":"博士長辛苦了這段時間稍微補回應該經濟部是同辛苦的啦所以我剛剛看執行的委員對你都是肯定會加冕你我一早看到楊前雲楊委員一個執行講了那麼多次的謝謝不過老實講這段時間我看你在說每天早上六點就起床"},{"start":6027.256,"end":6053.331,"text":"吃苦 動作的吃補 對不對當然是辛苦啦 不過更重要的我們都可以吃苦 可是不能讓人民吃苦所以 包括剛剛你講的 剛剛產發署要做一些模擬讓人民可以安心 這是當務之急那這兩天我先問你一個比較重要的這幾天啊 人民現在有一個很大的餘力就是來 我們看一下我們台灣啊 怎麼沒有在名單裡面呢"},{"start":6055.126,"end":6083.806,"text":"美國的財政部長說他有五個國家優先這幾天都要談英國、澳洲、日本、南韓、印度像日本明天他就要談了石破茂他們首相都說有機會他自己要親自要過去極力的爭取我就要問我們本來不是總統說我們是在第一批嗎怎麼現在被落掉了還是我們的錯誤有消息嗎那個消息是有錯誤的報告委員我想談判過程裡面"},{"start":6085.687,"end":6098.663,"text":"它有幾個重要的部分第一個是談確認命題對不對第二個進行對談第三個總結我們在第一階段已經在4月11號跟美國開過視訊了"},{"start":6100.666,"end":6124.193,"text":"所以我們是比日本要快的喔那個視訊是那個視訊大概有兩個問題啦第一個這個視訊到底算不算是會談的現在人家去的這個只是一個視訊嗎不是啊我們是把錯誤的一個視訊當成我們的一個一個已經開始在談那個變成是第一波我們現在的問題現在民眾你看啊你看喔專家學者是這樣問所以我們股票為了我們11號那天的那個視訊已經"},{"start":6125.793,"end":6151.246,"text":"上漲一波了對不對 結果發現我們現在不在第一波裡面所以我們的消息是不是有錯誤 這是一個這是第一點 第二點比較重要那天我們談完之後 那天你沒有去嘛是次長去了 江次長嘛對不對那天的內容到現在我們完全沒有信息然後外面有很多的擔心把我們跟以色列放在一起嘛所以他們就講說我們應該是跟南韓跟日本放在一起會比較安全因為我們都是在半導體很強嘛"},{"start":6152.447,"end":6173.544,"text":"可是相對的我們跟以色列說他們說兩個問題一個會不會談到很多美債的問題因為我們都是需要美國大力的支持在國安上面會不會我們讓步太多可是到目前外面都沒有消息就是歸納問題的部分我跟委員報告我想所有的都是進行中的命題"},{"start":6174.639,"end":6193.576,"text":"那我們在4月11號他們談的部分大概就談對等關稅談非關稅貿易障礙出國管制等多項的議題我們要談的是非常的多的所以我剛才在講嘛第一個美國在談判不管是誰啦任何一個談判都是已經確定我們要談什麼"},{"start":6195.253,"end":6206.519,"text":"然後才會進行談對不對所以我們已經先確定我們要談什麼日本、韓國他們還沒有所以他們第一波也是進行所以我們算是比在頂線這第一波的五個應該是這個樣子這個解讀應該是這樣解讀才是正確的"},{"start":6210.421,"end":6231.229,"text":"外界有人說這是假消息什麼在總統講我們在第一批是假消息來源這個不對我們現在應該是搶還比這個澳洲跟日本跟南韓還是搶在前面這個是事實嘛你怎麼會漠視說之前已經我們跟美國談了然後來講說後面報導說這個我第一波要談但是在那一邊談"},{"start":6231.889,"end":6259.487,"text":"我們這個視訊基於我們在這個進行的過程之中大家彼此協商的一個結果進行第一波的這個談過所以我在這個立法院跟委員報告千萬不要誤導我們的國人說這個什麼我們白開心一場我覺得這個是對現在是兩個問題嘛一個就是專家學者跟民眾說我們股票是白開心的一場這是一個要把它弄清楚嘛"},{"start":6259.887,"end":6268.072,"text":"第二個現在民眾更關心的那天談完之後我們到底有什麼樣的進展你說人家如果美國跟日本人家都實質已經坐在那邊談了那個總統有回應嘛院長也有回應嘛都有回應啊說談的這個情況不錯嘛"},{"start":6276.67,"end":6301.624,"text":"就這樣子啊你也了解對不對所以外界現在很期待說我們很清楚知道哪些地方是有進展的那我們什麼時候代表團可以過去不是只有一個視訊不是啊現在不是只有我的疑問嘛對不對這幾天從昨天到今天因為美國的財政部長清楚講說他優先要跟這五國趕快要談對不對所以現在我們回過頭去問說我們的視訊到底進度是怎麼樣第二個我們代表團什麼時候可以開始出發"},{"start":6302.945,"end":6323.542,"text":"這些事情都是在進行中的事情報告委員有些在進行中談判的事情我們也沒有辦法跟大家做一個鉅細靡遺的報告不過大家請放心到目前為止我們談判的就是就成果來看應該都還在好的境界裡面"},{"start":6325.034,"end":6352.292,"text":"OK 好 那我們就很期待啦現在全民都在等了不是只有那一場視訊我們要談出一個對台灣的這個關稅是具有競爭力的競爭力這樣的一個情境嘛大家朝這個方向在努力所以為什麼我們現在還不斷地要去跟業界訪談特別是大家委員所關心的這一些產業我們都包括總統也好 院長也好我都陪著他們跑了好幾場接著後面還有好幾場"},{"start":6353.132,"end":6381.873,"text":"我們自己經濟部裡面的產發署也好我們的中小企業署也好也都一一的去拜訪這些產業了解他們我們現在在談沒有想到的所以我們都非常的努力在勾勒出來這些哪一些問題可以提供給談判小組他們作為參考所以這一點請委員也能夠了解當然委員有看到什麼樣需要來協助這些中小企業協助我們台灣的中小微企業"},{"start":6382.914,"end":6410.76,"text":"幫他們爭取說你看看大家都沒有看到部長你看我已經質詢好幾次我們做了很多要求希望可以露實我們現在是共護國難共同來努力這個大家心都是一樣的可是當然就是人民期待就是說政府是解決問題的大家我知道看你們有在辛苦可是我剛才講了包括就是談判這個整個過程如果開始有在質疑就是說視訊完之後為什麼沒有新的進度代表團什麼時候要出去我覺得政府也要讓人民可以安心是的 這個是我們共同的目標那問你一個"},{"start":6413.823,"end":6416.489,"text":"最近引起很多討論就是我們美麗的東海岸的風機的這個問題我們看一下現在有人說在台東"},{"start":6425.577,"end":6446.243,"text":"這邊有一個東重陸翼的風力的發電計畫會不會讓我們最漂亮的東台灣啊你看 成功那麼漂亮一直到長濱那邊是 報告委員這個計畫部長有掌握嗎這個在禮拜一啊那個台東的那個委員就已經有問過這個問題然後問了報告再重新一次"},{"start":6447.043,"end":6464.069,"text":"就是經濟部不支持長指有生態環境疑慮地方不支持的陸域風電規劃的案件經濟部不會支持所以針對保定所以針對這個案子經濟部是不支持的地方政府不支持我們就不支持"},{"start":6465.149,"end":6484.721,"text":"不只這個案件所有地方政府不支持的案件經濟部就是不會支持這個我在禮拜一那個台東的那個立委就已經問過這個問題我回答過了今天我再鄭重的回答這個委員您的這個案子會引起很多討論是因為他已經辦了兩次的這個說明會"},{"start":6487.322,"end":6514.67,"text":"以細微邪告替大五鄉辦了這個說明會10號又辦了第二次然後很多縣議當地的縣議員跟縣政府都出來說他們不曉得然後他們去問了環境部說開始要做環評而且他上面有一個公告嘛環境部直接跟他講說主管機關要許可是你嘛所以很多立委都要問你這個事情那當然他體面還有一個爭議點這個公司啊還沒有成立可是他們說去查這個聯絡電話是在光與工程顧問有限公司"},{"start":6515.959,"end":6533.324,"text":"經驗公司你一定知道嘛他們兩個在同一個公司裡面這個公司啊是從業的子公司所以經驗公司你一定了解嘛對不對我離開上任部長以後你已經把從業這個說滿了沒有沒有沒有 崑委員在這個地方再說明一下我離開"},{"start":6535.307,"end":6548.205,"text":"崇越之前光於是我已經離開崇越的董事會了我只是股東的時候他買的公司所以你千萬不要低溝道塞都這樣子我會很難過"},{"start":6550.562,"end":6577.424,"text":"這種事情 這個就是一個利益迴避嘛 其實不是我不是經營者的時候你會投這個這樣這不公平不是不是 部長我如果說我今天要買台塑的股票我是股東我賣台塑有問題的話我也有問題嗎 不會這樣子嘛部長 這個案子是因為它是一個光電嘛 對不對光電的主管機關是經濟部員你聽我講 你是主管機關嘛"},{"start":6579.267,"end":6585.196,"text":"這個案子目前你是反對的那還好啊若是你贊成了這個案子要經過經濟部你下面的人"},{"start":6587.541,"end":6615.427,"text":"這個人家瓜田李下 這個就是法律上的第一迴避嘛對 報告委員所以今天很好 我今天從你嘴巴聽到說你不贊成這個案子你如果贊成就麻煩啦這個時候進入整個開發的過程經濟部的同仁 要...報告委員對不對 所以今天得到一個你反對這個案子是非常好的報告委員所有我做事行事光明 坦蕩蕩任何的違法違規你只要找到麻煩去提告"},{"start":6617.577,"end":6644.568,"text":"我不會說這個地方去呼籲啦什麼的不可能啦 了解這個意思嗎現在這件事情 總是安裝人員對我看不上眼啦所以千萬不要用這種事情來勾擊我部長你今天做這個宣示是好的不過我要提醒你一點從業是一個本來就是這樣一個政策嘛不定 你先聽我講這應該也是為了你好啦經濟部主管的業務裡面因為你從業也很大嘛經濟部也很大"},{"start":6646.989,"end":6664.301,"text":"你當然你上任經濟部長之後你就辭掉了跟從業的可是我在提醒你我在上任經濟部長之前的五年我就已經離開公司了對啦 保定你現在來關經濟部嘛經濟部這麼多從業有太多的這只是其中一個案子嘛"},{"start":6665.322,"end":6692.911,"text":"你有太多的案子跟經濟部都有關你要非常注意這件事情當然可能不見得馬上法律上有問題可是這一定有利益迴避跟瓜田李下你要非常小心任何的瓜田李下我都歡迎提告不是提告啦 保定來所以今天做一個很重要的宣示嘛東城電力開發這個案子你不贊成更進一步的你說只要是路上一些風機對環境有不好的除了東海岸你都反對嘛這是第一對不對你今天要不要利用這個機會更清楚跟大家宣示等於剛才說的嘛"},{"start":6693.947,"end":6708.251,"text":"違法事情你不做你光明磊落嘛所以包括崇業你以前的公司如果是跟你經濟部有關的在利益迴避上面在瓜田底下上面你會清清楚楚一定不會涉及到我已經離開崇業的經營層了"},{"start":6711.252,"end":6738.334,"text":"你不能用說我只是一個股東然後這些公司他的作為要來橫架在我身上我剛才已經跟你報告了如果我今天是某個公司的股東那代表那家公司跟我就有關係嗎我這麼多公司這麼多公司三百三千幾間公司我買公票你都可以認為說這我都有關係嗎不可能是這樣嘛對不對 委員我想你是非常"},{"start":6739.315,"end":6758.05,"text":"努力非常棒的一個委員但是不能夠這樣子好不好部長我今天是為你好喔也是為了我們整個國家的體制我講錯了我剛剛講說第一個我先肯定你今天這個事情你是反對的嘛你甚至進一步的陸上風機影響到這個環境我現在是進一步說我現在不是只有對你這個要求像所有的"},{"start":6758.991,"end":6778.773,"text":"部會首長所有的政務官本人應該信守這個原則嘛如果是你以前有過關係的特別你是創辦人那你現在接了經濟部然後講你如果說是加豐部長或者其他部的部長跟他其他關係業務有關係我相信人家也會切得乾乾淨淨我今天只是給你一個宣示機會我意思是說不是我啦"},{"start":6779.514,"end":6808.058,"text":"我只是暫時擔任經濟部長所以我講說這個地方政府不贊同的話經濟部就不會贊同任何人來當這個部長他也是不會贊同好不好部長我在講的不是只有這個案子啦我現在在講就是說所有跟你以前比較有就是說曾經從業現在如果是經濟部主管的你要比較小心但目前我不是說你有問題你已經可能要以身作則已經做出一個不錯的那算每個部會的所長本來就被這樣要求嘛"},{"start":6809.219,"end":6821.07,"text":"我們可以今天不做一個宣示可能可以宣示得更清楚一點沒有啦 你放心不是只有有沒有人去告的問題你經得起考驗就沒有問題可是這也是個政務官的一個風範謝謝委員關心好 謝謝休息五分鐘"},{"start":7090.009,"end":7091.118,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":7145.877,"end":7166.737,"text":"好 現在開會請鄭正前委員做詢答謝謝主席我想請一下郭志威部長還有我們劉繼慶主委郭部長 劉主委"},{"start":7175.453,"end":7191.145,"text":"兩位好首先我想先請一下郭部長因為昨天我在質詢總質詢的時候針對那個卓院長的部分我特別問到了一個因為我們在做那個國際採購當中要平衡那個台美貿易逆差的部分問到了一個"},{"start":7191.725,"end":7209.871,"text":"天然氣的部分那針對這個部分的時候我那時候有提到說當時說要跟美國買天然氣要從10%提高到30%那郭部長你當時你直接講到的狀態是說你要鄭重跟委員報告你從來不會提到有多少的比例然後而且你提到說這個資料可能有錯就是"},{"start":7211.411,"end":7226.32,"text":"昨天的畫面我都直接調出來了那我也覺得很疑惑啦因為我在想說我不只是從媒體看到而且重要的其實是在我在4月9號的時候就在我們紅樓101經濟委員會的時候你在回答"},{"start":7230.362,"end":7256.284,"text":"你在回答就是張其凱委員的時候你就直接講到了就是將來就是20%到30%你具體講這個部分所以我覺得我也很疑惑我在想說不就是只差幾天的時間一下怎麼會變成說我得到的資訊可能是錯誤的可不可以請部長這邊做一個簡單的回應報告委員我想這個是天然氣的部分"},{"start":7257.506,"end":7262.628,"text":"那天然氣的部分是不是會買到30%這個我想我們會根據談判的這個內容我不應該這個很貿然的講說我們會一定肯定會到30%"},{"start":7273.383,"end":7293.329,"text":"所以基本上我的依據是有來源的嘛對不對因為你很具體在經紀委員會講到了這樣的一個數字那我用這樣的方式來質詢我們的院長的時候你跳出來說我的資訊可能是錯誤的不會有這樣子的一個事情我就覺得這是什麼狀態"},{"start":7295.049,"end":7315.01,"text":"才4月9號到4月15號 隔6天的下你講的話就要收回去了但我們這樣怎麼去做我們接下來的整個報告委員這一點我想是這個樣子因為我們的變化蠻大的這裡面牽扯到現在在談判的內容所以6天你的話變化就不算了不是不算"},{"start":7317.191,"end":7336.179,"text":"所以媒體有嘛我用媒體你背詢的資料回來出來用的時候你告訴我說我的資訊是錯誤的那我這樣我怎麼能夠接受部長你理解我的意思嗎那針對這個部分我想說我們接下來要怎麼樣去談判這件事情其實我完全尊重"},{"start":7336.519,"end":7358.99,"text":"而且我也理解談判當中有很多東西可以揭露有很多東西不能揭露只是針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到這個數字的時候你說我應用的那個數字是錯誤的我就很難接受因為你當時4月9號在我們經紀人會回答的這件事情那這部分我想說在這邊我就很清楚的跟"},{"start":7359.89,"end":7380.627,"text":"就是部長報告我在質詢運用的所引用的數據都是有來源的而且有清楚的來源而且是從你這邊講出來的東西如果說隔了六天你覺得就不算數然後理由是因為我們現在在台美談判當中的時候那很多東西都不算數那我們這樣政策很難推動啊"},{"start":7381.127,"end":7406.661,"text":"好不好這邊特別跟部長這邊做一個清楚的一個說明那我想說接下來的時候我想請教一下劉主委因為你在簡報當中你特別提到了一個台灣加一這個部分那台灣加一的部分其實我們賴總統他特別提到的一個情況就是說台灣加一就是台灣加美國的一個新布局對不對我這樣理解有沒有錯"},{"start":7408.878,"end":7422.665,"text":"這是總統的意見 對那總統的意見對嘛台灣加美國就是一個全球的新佈局嘛OK那因為你剛剛的報告當中你也特別提到了這個部分"},{"start":7423.385,"end":7436.434,"text":"那我想說台灣要加一這一是什麼東西我在想說也許我們本來在想他可能有一些更彈性的一個調整而不是只是設定在美國那總統既然定調說他是美國的狀態我們對台灣加一就是我們希望還是實現這個經濟日不落帝國"},{"start":7443.819,"end":7469.738,"text":"只是因為你剛剛也特別提到了因為總統特別提到說台灣加1加1就是美國那我其實是有點擔心因為台灣其實它本來就是貿易導向的國家它其實應該是要更多元化跟國際接軌這很重要所以跟台灣加1這部分還牽涉到了一個脫中入北我這邊我也請教一下那個主委我們脫中入北這個概念是怎麼樣子"},{"start":7471.343,"end":7476.103,"text":"郭忠祿北不好意思我不太清楚您這個意思是北是什麼"},{"start":7477.148,"end":7501.538,"text":"很好喔 如果連國發會主委都不知道賴總統講脫中入北是什麼意思的時候那我們的廠商 我們的企業我們其他的經濟部 其他各部會要怎麼去講脫中入北脫中入北這個部分也是賴總統直接講的喔我說明一下喔 我們的簡報上面我們今天講的兩件事喔如果你早上有聽我講喔美國佔全球進口市場13.4%"},{"start":7504.319,"end":7509.56,"text":"全球美國之外的市場還有86.6%我們希望引導廠商能夠分散市場進入全球那美國是因為深化我們跟美國的合作這個沒問題我只是針對因為脫中入北這個部分"},{"start":7522.944,"end":7546.352,"text":"我不太理解就像你的反應跟我的反應是一樣的因為所謂北是什麼意思因為台灣其實在20世紀下半的部分的時候當時華沙公約組織解散的時候很多人就講說北方國家的時候就是一個先進的國家概念所以台灣原本就在北方國家之列所以脫中入北這邊的時候我覺得在目前整個"},{"start":7547.992,"end":7562.907,"text":"美國重新要調整國際經濟格局的時候我覺得特別的一個重要所以我為什麼會把台灣加1跟拖中入北這兩件事情拿起來討論就是因為台灣目前為止第一個最大的貿易"},{"start":7564.228,"end":7584.851,"text":"對象其實還是在中國大陸去年佔了20%那麼美國這邊佔18%點多那美國也成長得很快 這都沒有問題那台灣要擁抱美國 這是說實話 我覺得台灣原本跟美國關係就非常的緊密而且台灣的朝野基本上都是親美的"},{"start":7585.231,"end":7602.972,"text":"我的認為是這樣子所以我們跟美國這邊有更好的連結度我覺得也沒有問題只是在目前因為美國的對等關稅的時候全世界都在重新考量跟美國的一個距離當中而且我覺得可能會產生兩個世界格局的一個不同的"},{"start":7603.753,"end":7619.265,"text":"貿易陣營的時候台灣要怎麼去做很重要是不是完全壓在美國的身上台灣加一完全壓在美國的身上還是我們同時重新要去讓台灣更多元化去進行"},{"start":7620.286,"end":7641.905,"text":"美國以外的一個貿易的一個互動跟格局這也是我特別關心的一個點所以今天針對就是主委跟部長在今天的一個委員會當中的時候我特別提到這個點就台灣這邊加一我希望這個一委員我的報告第二頁寫得很清楚台灣加一佈局全球"},{"start":7642.145,"end":7656.299,"text":"理解 理解只是因為我們總統不是這樣講我們總統講台灣家又台灣家美國總統的政策很清楚就是要做經濟日不落國也就是希望我們協助台商能夠佈局全球理解 這個也是我的目標"},{"start":7658.681,"end":7683.731,"text":"那我只是希望說因為針對這個部分的時候呢我希望我們有更好的一個戰略讓台灣能夠更面向就是世界不同的一個經濟體都能夠有好的一個互動那這個部分我在這邊先打住我最後一個部分因為您跟郭部長都在那我想特別提到的一個情況其實是因為"},{"start":7686.796,"end":7701.881,"text":"總預算的複議已經過了35天了總統公告也已經公告到今天是第36天我看到的一個狀態國發會這邊的時候我們有很多的解凍案總共經濟委員會總共有98個解凍案"},{"start":7705.302,"end":7726.201,"text":"那其中在國發會這邊的時候呢專案報告就使得動之有4個案書面報告就可以動之的有15案那書面報告之後要同意使得動之有2個案經濟部這邊的時候呢專案報告使得動之有21個案書面報告就可以動之的有17個案"},{"start":7727.722,"end":7736.396,"text":"那到目前為止的時候我想請一下劉主委跟郭部長我們國發會跟經濟部有送了多少解凍案進經濟委員會來"},{"start":7740.733,"end":7762.535,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在大部分的報告都準備好了啦那但是有些數字因為還在釐清中所以我們還在等那個這個確定的數字大概什麼時候可以送進來下個禮拜嗎因為有些數字因為他給的當時在統三那部分有些數字不夠還要等分配所以我們因為有點"},{"start":7763.436,"end":7777.332,"text":"我們在等那個這個足跡總署的分配什麼時候會送進來什麼時候送進來他們確定之後我們就會送過來我們基本上報告都寫好了OK 顧部長這邊呢我們也是一樣因為那個統三的部分我們到底要怎麼樣調這個是個問題"},{"start":7780.92,"end":7802.006,"text":"這個部分因為我覺得書面報告送進來的時候就可以直接動用的時候可是到目前為止其實是零我們整個經紀人會動了98個案子一個案子都沒有送進來這其中包括了我們產發署也有一個直接書面報告就可以解凍的案子也沒有送進來標準局也沒有送進來"},{"start":7803.206,"end":7823.836,"text":"制裁局也沒有送進來 水利署沒有送進來 商業發展署沒有送進來 能源署也沒有送進來那麼國發會這邊的一個檔案局也都沒有送進來這都是一個很簡單可以就解凍的案子那我不知道是現在是因為更高層的一個政治決策還是我們各部會"},{"start":7825.325,"end":7846.465,"text":"或者是各署各局偷懶了所以我們沒有送進來那這個部分我希望因為主委剛剛提到的一個數字這個問題我相信它正常應該可以很快有那我希望就是劉主委跟郭部長能夠用最快的速度把可以直接用書面報告解凍的案子就直接送進委員會可不可以這個我們回去會來努力"},{"start":7851.786,"end":7876.677,"text":"好那這個部分我希望用最快的速度因為我覺得能夠做行政部門能夠做我們就盡力的去做那麼盡力的去做尤其兩位都是攸關整個台灣整個經貿發展很重要的一個部門那我們希望對於這樣的行政效率的時候能夠加速的提升能夠解凍就盡速的解凍不要拖謝謝"},{"start":7878.22,"end":7878.58,"text":"主席有請"},{"start":7908.686,"end":7912.487,"text":"主委還有那個郭部長好兩位好這個先談這個預算解凍案"},{"start":7927.408,"end":7955.351,"text":"這個部分的通商這是立法院一直以來都有的通商然後呢通商其實就是授權給行政部門所以組織總署這麼慢這個有他的一個特殊的考量那我認為是行政院院長特殊的考量但是我們作為部會的首長要去協助溝通協調尤其是"},{"start":7956.925,"end":7985.657,"text":"經濟部尤其是經濟部因為這涉及到很多我們的經濟的發展尤其是我們現在又面臨這個川普的關稅的問題所以這個部分解凍案非常很清楚很明確怎麼樣的時候解凍條件都很明確通商就是就是授權給行政院到底要刪哪個那更好啊"},{"start":7986.853,"end":8015.867,"text":"所以這個都不是理由這是第一個第二個要跟剛才那個鄭正前委員提到脫中入北這個是最新的是這個在民進黨中央黨部開會的時候一個專題報告然後賴總統當時他以這個民進黨主席的身份主持這個會議他很贊同脫中入北"},{"start":8017.062,"end":8023.86,"text":"然後被引申為托中入美所以這個不是一個大議題非常重要對我們整個經貿"},{"start":8025.94,"end":8045.592,"text":"有很大的關係所以這個部分這個當然主委不知道這個事情所以這個部分還是要審慎的該溝通該建議的就應該建議這個它的影響的層面應該要做一個審慎的提供給這個"},{"start":8048.194,"end":8058.058,"text":"總統來去做一個參考來做一個好這個就請就請那個劉志偉請回座好這個部長是"},{"start":8061.123,"end":8071.527,"text":"這個美國總統川普真的是上次我們已經談過他是多變非常多變然後上次我們也提到75個已聯繫美國對這個國家當初你也認為我們是在這75個裡面這個是先維持10%但是我們很遺憾的就是說這個這樣的一個"},{"start":8087.093,"end":8109.874,"text":"美國所批貿易談判對象美國財政部長貝森特他提了這五個優先談判的國家我們沒有被列入所以我們要積極我們要加油我們要透過各種各種的管道各種管道要去跟這個美國尤其是"},{"start":8110.973,"end":8135.488,"text":"尤其是台積電已經去了透過他的管道啊他們的關係啊所以很多的一個要去積極的部分這個部分是這個我的建議因為在這樣的一個美國首批談判對象裡面他列了相關的這些時程跟各國的立場然後呢很重要的這個"},{"start":8140.489,"end":8168.403,"text":"美國財政部長提到通常第一個達成協議的人會拿到最好的協議你看這個是一個所以我們要積極要加油在這樣的一個非常不穩定的川普總統的情況之下要過透過各種各種的管道當然我們的談判的籌碼"},{"start":8170.236,"end":8195.986,"text":"也要善用上次我有建議我們也要善用這個部長經濟部的報告今天也提到了這個協助國內廠商擴大國際市場在短期方面在中長期方面都有提了非常詳細的非常詳細的一個說明當然就是要繼續剛剛部長也提到會繼續提起"},{"start":8199.889,"end":8224.891,"text":"這個產業界各方的意見各方的意見這個是都應該要繼續的部分當然這個這個面臨這個多變而且是非常非常的不穩定的而且多變的總統川普總統的一個情況之下確實是有他的難度但是必須要去積極要去積極那這個上次"},{"start":8227.844,"end":8252.059,"text":"這個880億的部分在經濟部所提的這些項目裡面除了經費額度院長有時候可以再考量到底是要增加還是要減少當然會涉及到談判的結果當然會涉及到談判的結果所以這個部分是一個在我們在跟產業界溝通協調或是說在這個金額"},{"start":8254.724,"end":8276.717,"text":"到底要多少的情況之下當然這業界的部分你們都考量到但是我們也必須去考慮到這個勞工勞工的部分那所以也要去去跟這些業界勞工親王不要受影響政府"},{"start":8277.816,"end":8301.394,"text":"怎麼樣去投入相關的資源去協助企業界但是勞工的部分千萬不要受影響那另外就是時間的關係這個除了業界的建議那因為在野黨國民黨跟縣市首長而這些縣市國民黨的縣市首長也跟業界"},{"start":8302.782,"end":8330.382,"text":"有很多的一個這個了解所提出的這些譬如說第一項紓困優先擴大規模兩千億這個也都拿來這個國發會跟這個經濟部包括別的部會都應該所以這個不是不是像某某個委員所講的只有入客來台不是只有這裡面沒有寫到入客來台所以第一項這個"},{"start":8332.078,"end":8355.117,"text":"蘇昆約擴大規模然後呢這個相關的擴大內需觀光先行產業升級這個部分是一個啟動國際談判擴展多元所以我們的那個就是談判或是怎麼樣去因應或是去規劃因應的時候各方的意見各方的意見都給予這個"},{"start":8357.666,"end":8385.975,"text":"來去做評估去採納這個是一個在這樣一個面臨非常困難的而且是從所未有的部長是不是從所未有報告委員我想這些部分都是方向那這個事實上我們現在政府都有在進行我們有具體的目標我們有具體的數字"},{"start":8387.426,"end":8388.069,"text":"那也謝謝這個國民黨"},{"start":8391.243,"end":8417.324,"text":"大概這個方向大家都差不多啦但是沒有方法那我們是目前來講具體的做法都有我們也歡迎各位能夠就我們現在的具體的做法上面譬如說剛才講說880億可能不足這個也謝謝委員的關注那我們在這個地方我們也談過了如果880億是不夠的我們願意往上加碼謝謝委員的提示"},{"start":8418.846,"end":8432.139,"text":"當然也許不足也許太多啊就看談判的結果吧所以這個部分是談判是非常非常的重要這個相關的籌碼我們要善用好不好是謝謝謝謝請謝一鳳召委諮詢"},{"start":8450.42,"end":8472.132,"text":"謝謝主席 我想要請國發會的劉主委跟財政部的理事長請劉主委 理事長主委 你剛才在報告的時候 你有提到就是美國其實占全球市場只有大概是1.3成左右進口的市場 貨品進口 不含服務"},{"start":8477.086,"end":8494.436,"text":"這是財政部的資料嘛 沒有錯嘛那我國對主要國家出口的金額我們看到了是中國大陸 美國還有東協佔前三名嘛那第一名就是中國大陸那在我們不要"},{"start":8495.649,"end":8514.705,"text":"就是中國大陸與美國的其他市場請問劉主委我們應該從哪裡來擴大我國的出口市場跟委員報告其實全球的市場是在滾動的在不同的國家在不同的時間會有不同的建設跟不同的方案"},{"start":8515.726,"end":8535.884,"text":"譬如說在五年前美國對於這個智慧醫療非常的重視那個市場就會起來那智慧醫療補助結束市場就會下去那歐洲其實在這幾年在通訊上面會起來那包括最近像以供給機最近比較大的市場會比較崛起的市場是印度跟土耳其那其實"},{"start":8537.734,"end":8553.681,"text":"我們的產業必須依據不同產業所發展的地方來進行這個市場的攻略才會比較有效率因為它是一個起落的起起落落的狀態那我們沒辦法說現在哪一個市場就是主市場"},{"start":8554.341,"end":8580.877,"text":"要依據產業的特性跟那個產業在明年跟今年的變化來選擇所以我們的主張是希望透過冒險去掌握到市場的趨勢變化去讓廠商知道現在市場在哪些地方崛起的比較快譬如說現在在北非跟東非其實在建築市場是起來的比較快那要掌握這樣的一個訊息才有辦法掌握真正的市場"},{"start":8581.94,"end":8594.59,"text":"但是我們知道我們如果根據這個表來看我們看到東協其實在這一次對美的關稅裡面我們有非常多的廠商也在東協的國家裡面"},{"start":8598.035,"end":8614.961,"text":"我們知道了在關稅的談判對於我國的產業有利的情況下就是第一個就是對於其他主要的競爭國家我們對美談判的時候必須要比他們的關稅更優惠是不是"},{"start":8616.415,"end":8640.632,"text":"如果就市場的攻略倒不再是跟美國的談判而是我們跟東協之間的關稅的問題那第二個事情是我們要從做去做工廠變成做市場我們過去以東協來講多半是以東協作為工廠那我們希望將來他也可以把東協作為市場那他要在策略上必須進行一些轉變"},{"start":8641.656,"end":8670.228,"text":"所以你会你认为我们应该要协助我们的厂商在东协里面扩大市场吗我们其实两个步骤一个步骤是美国的主市场怎么协助台商能够在美国的市场取得比较好的地位第二个事情在美国以外的市场如何分散风险我们希望协助他们去分散风险那如你看到我们现在日本跟欧洲的市场全部都下降了是不是"},{"start":8671.599,"end":8690.556,"text":"出口都下降了那未來我們怎麼樣是因為匯率的問題嗎還是什麼其他因素這個必須依據產業別來看它升降的因素有些是升有些是降那我們降要解決降的理由然後升的話要掌握升的機會再往上走"},{"start":8691.483,"end":8708.835,"text":"那怎麼樣解決呢這個還是要去切割到產業別我們在產業有一個名字叫GMV叫Growth Market Value就是在談其實全球都會分析出來在不同的產業在不同的國家每一年這一塊的市場是成長還是下降我們只要掌握到這個數據就可以去去執行"},{"start":8710.356,"end":8716.4,"text":"那我們具體的方向當然產業別會有差異但是我們具體的方向我們可以怎麼樣子擴大對歐洲或者是其他的東協國家我們怎麼樣子擴大我們廠商在那些國家的利基點"},{"start":8732.35,"end":8747.47,"text":"怎麼樣子可以讓我們台灣的整個全球的市場整體擴大那你總要有目標嘛不能夠永遠都在這裡說各個產業別上上下下上上下下那我們的目標在哪裡啊委員講的是對的所以我們現在才開始在"},{"start":8752.674,"end":8775.899,"text":"才开始要去建立这样的一个资讯提供给厂商做参考这个我上周已经请我们同仁开始进行规划但是要进入一个的新市场除了建立通路之外还有受到法规的影响包括整个通路的影响的建立所以我们第二步会来协助建立通路的能力让厂商有能力去进行这个新市场的开发"},{"start":8776.604,"end":8801.814,"text":"好 谢谢你都没有给次长讲到话人家次长对于关税的资料也掌握得非常清楚你们都没有借重一下我们都已经有情况相关的资料提供给经济部对 你都没有借重一下次长的相关你们都没有做横向的联系我们一直都有横向的联系那次长请回我们再请郭部长请郭部长"},{"start":8807.062,"end":8833.149,"text":"主委部長我想請問一下貝森特他點名這五個國家是先談關稅的國家這樣子對我們是好還是不好美國他說了如果先談判者就有先行的優勢那請問這樣子對我們來說是好還是不好報告委員我想在這個地方我再一次跟委員報告"},{"start":8834.73,"end":8852.187,"text":"我們在4月11號已經跟美方來做了諮商了所以我們是在這個第一他們所你剛才所講的這個第一批的前一批我們就已經進入了那我們在那個談判的內容裡面談的是對等的關稅"},{"start":8853.348,"end":8879.327,"text":"跟非关税贸易障碍以及出国管制等等这些多项经贸的议题这最起码我们跟美国说我要跟你谈判的就是这些议题美方大概到目前为止他们也同意跟我们谈这些问题所以谈判我跟你们报告谈判不管是怎么样子所有的谈判一定经过三个阶段第一个阶段确定我们要谈什么"},{"start":8879.907,"end":8907.183,"text":"好在那一次的會談當中即便你沒有參與我要問的是美方有沒有給我們清單這個我不是談判小組你不是談判小組啊你要掌握啊你們兩個總不能都沒有掌握劉主委你有沒有掌握我們沒有參與談判所以你也不知道美方有沒有給我們待解決的清單有沒有這個我不清楚"},{"start":8911.125,"end":8928.34,"text":"國貿 國貿署也不清楚他也不知道這表示說我們之間大家在談的都是非常的聚焦了沒有衍生新的命題了所以我們也沒有收到新的指示那我要再問的是"},{"start":8929.895,"end":8949.16,"text":"川普總統他在他的Twitter宣布揮打會擴大在美國的投資以及他是跟5家台積電以外的5家公司他們會就是在美國發展AI5000億的AI基礎設施會不會加劇整個半導體供應鏈向美移動"},{"start":8959.688,"end":8983.939,"text":"跟委員報告這個正好說明了我們跟美國供應鏈是一體的那對台商而言會增加商業機會因為投資的只是一個過程是一個手段手段要達到的目的是商機所以呢這500個billion的商機對台灣台商而言是一個巨大商機可取得的所以呢我是我們是很正向的看這件事情"},{"start":8984.039,"end":9005.538,"text":"那半導體供應鏈會不會向美國移動中下游整個帶過去這個對台灣整個供應鏈大家都很緊張產業跟著商業機會走不會造成產業的技術流失這個是台灣過去這30年40年來的全球化過程中都掌握得很清楚"},{"start":9006.218,"end":9022.643,"text":"那這點委員是可以放心的因為每一個企業對自己的機密一定有一套獨到的方法去守住它因為這是它的生命競爭力只要總部在這裡就不會變化那輝達呢 輝達 對 總部嘛輝達總部在這裡 所以輝達的技術也在他手上所以輝達未來在台灣的投資會不會暫緩"},{"start":9031.348,"end":9044.041,"text":"您從這個案子可以看得出來我們台商跟輝達是一個完整的供應鏈整合是相當完美的那只是讓我們彼此共同對外來的發展鎖得更緊更有未來好 謝謝"},{"start":9061.136,"end":9082.847,"text":"現在請呂毅林委員作詢答謝謝主席 請郭部長郭部長委員好部長"},{"start":9083.888,"end":9090.313,"text":"美國原先規劃了台灣要課徵32%的對等關稅在4月9日宣布了各國的對等關稅暫緩了90天而且只是徵收了10%的基準關稅這也是有給我們充裕的時間可以對於未來整個情勢的演變做好準備"},{"start":9107.105,"end":9133.309,"text":"那所以說我們的行政院也特別也下鄉了去做一個我們產業的傾聽之旅來針對這個產業的對對等干稅所面臨的這個困境還有什麼需求的部分的話來做協助那部長你有親自過去第一站就到我們桃園包括桃園台中彰化跟高雄那部長你也聽到說產業很多的需求這些需求除了你們六個層面去給協助幫忙之外"},{"start":9136.53,"end":9164.653,"text":"那很多產業所提出來的問題部長你認為這些問題你有什麼解決的方案或者是你還有加強哪些部分嗎是 報告委員我想很多的這個在這個座談過程中發現有一些剛開始我們可能稍微沒有想到的問題那也非常好透過這樣的一個座談我們發現有一些需要改正譬如說很多的這個業者關心我們會不會雨天收傘"},{"start":9166.53,"end":9195.057,"text":"那這個問題是當初我們沒有想像到的那也謝謝大家的關心我們馬上做出一個這個就貸展延的這樣的一個措施就是說就有了貸款當你有認為有需要的時候那麼你這個企業要繼續的經營下去利息可以繳我們同意馬上展延六個月展延六個月然後你可以繳息不還本然後信保基金的配合這些展延的保證"},{"start":9196.638,"end":9211.899,"text":"這個就是第一件事情那再來就是說有的廠商反應說你這個保證的額度是不是能夠再加大一點那我們這方面都有調整不是 你有認真聽因為我有參加這個座談"},{"start":9213.681,"end":9223.129,"text":"所以產業提出來的不只是這些也有關於電的問題還有土地的問題等等就是因為他們本來要投資的現在因為對等關係的問題可能會暫緩投資或者是設廠的問題這個部分的話我們也希望橫向方面不管是跟國發會或者財政部那邊也給他們適當的一個比較暢通的溝通的管道好不好"},{"start":9235.919,"end":9255.273,"text":"是在桃園的部分確實如委員所指教的土地的問題我們現在因為桃園大概土地已經比較少了可以做生產的土地會比較少我們現在在南部嘉義以南大概有四個工業區是經濟部所屬的產業園區"},{"start":9257.495,"end":9273.684,"text":"那這裡面大概加起來好幾百公頃那我們採取因為大家現在都覺得土地太貴像桃園的土地真的就是非常的貴不利於生產所以我們幫助他們我們現在的土地只租不售只租不售"},{"start":9274.204,"end":9285.228,"text":"那對於這個租金的部分我們都可以考慮在他現場的時候考慮給他一些或者是融資或者是租賃問題對這個部分我們都會根據業者他們的這個需求滾動式的這個改善也就是幫助這個業者能夠順利的這個返台然後在台灣所以部長這個我們已經開了四場後面還有幾場嗎還是各縣市會陸續依序"},{"start":9301.693,"end":9330.81,"text":"各地來展開各地來展開這些因為你都去座談的市場你知道業界很多聲音很多需求必須要給大家給我們長官們知道才能夠給他們溝通給他們一個管道給他們做個協助這個才是我們的本意啦所以我們希望這方面的話我們就依序陸續在辦後面還有幾場呢你說辦那個座談會是不是對座談會我們大概目前我收到的大概有這個三場"},{"start":9331.67,"end":9342.32,"text":"還要再增加三場新北 台南等等加起來有三場好 部長會有這種對等關稅的問題就是美國他要解決的他們這個逆差的問題嘛那這個逆差的問題的話我們賴總統的話也特別說要對美國擴大來增加這個"},{"start":9350.307,"end":9363.779,"text":"採購那部長您這邊的Title也說要針對這個最主要大宗的這個天然氣的採購那我們看到我們對美國的天然氣的採購是百分之在我們整個進口量來講的話是佔了百分之九點八"},{"start":9364.72,"end":9384.334,"text":"那因為美國我們購買的話運輸成本的問題要考慮到所以我們才會只有9.8%因為在美國運輸的話大概要20天左右那其他國家像澳洲的話大概是10天卡達的話大概是15天左右那現在我們跟美國擴大這天然氣的採購部長有沒有想到這成本問題那當然在3月20號的時候有提到說美國的阿拉斯加啦"},{"start":9389.798,"end":9394.203,"text":"阿拉斯加如果採購天然氣的話它的運輸的話會縮減到10天那我們成本當然會降低但是還是未支出 還沒有採購雖然要投資將近440億美元但是哪些國家會投資"},{"start":9408.22,"end":9421.964,"text":"有順利嗎 就算你順利的話也在2030年那這個五年的時間我們對美國的採購天然氣的話那有可能就會到他們的本土地方那本土的運輸還是一樣這麼久的時間運輸成本還是會提高難道部長還要讓我們中油跟台電要承受這個成本虧損的問題這麼嚴峻嗎"},{"start":9432.077,"end":9461.096,"text":"報告委員我想這個就是成本的問題啦那採購多少量量價這些都有關係啦那所以剛才那個鄭委員也有問我這個說為什麼我當初跟他講這個跟別的委員講這個幅度不太一樣確實是這樣的就是說因為量價的關係我們當然方向是未來的方向可能是朝一個比較高一點的目標啦這就是看談判的這個樣的一個結果是怎麼樣子"},{"start":9462.317,"end":9478.249,"text":"所以我們也沒有辦法確定但是以目前來講不到10%的這個採購量我們當然是衡量怎麼樣子透過採購的力量然後可以讓我們取得的這個成本更低這個是我們的目標10年2000億的採購"},{"start":9481.13,"end":9505.936,"text":"剛剛有人問到這清單問題我覺得這清單我們不要被動譬如他給我們什麼東西我們就買什麼要我們台灣有需要什麼我們去買什麼譬如說你天然氣我們有需要我們去購買那除了這個主要的這個原料跟天然氣以外還有很多的像機械的用具或者是電機設備精密的儀器跟航空器等等這些也是我們進口的大品項裡面"},{"start":9506.676,"end":9522.306,"text":"所以我們也可以把這些我們需求的量的多少把它放入清單我們主動出局主動提供去溝通這才是我們談判對雙方都有利的是不是是的我想談判都是彼此大家雙方來交換彼此的需求不是單方面的啦"},{"start":9522.726,"end":9536.617,"text":"都是雙方面的彼此交換需求然後去談出一個好的良善的一個結果所以我想委員所提示的這一些部分也都是我們考慮的範圍還有就是說美國對於各國的這個對等關稅率那其中"},{"start":9544.554,"end":9567.406,"text":"有其他國家會擔心一個洗產地為什麼提到這個部分就像菲律賓的話才18%新加坡的話10%那菲律賓的課徵這個18%的稅率遠低於台灣的32%那我們政府若是依照你原先的計畫要到菲律賓設置這個產業園區的話會不會被美方認為說你是有特定要洗產地的嫌疑"},{"start":9568.627,"end":9593.362,"text":"報告委員我想我們目前大家在談的32% 18%這些都是暫定的稅率所以現在這些都已經被調到所謂的基本的稅率10%那我想這90天以後才會明朗化所以對我們來講我們都在爭取在台灣台灣的這個業者都可以找到一個具有競爭力的這樣的一個關稅條件"},{"start":9596.184,"end":9608.33,"text":"那我們在達成總統的日不落國的競爭條件也是一樣我們會幫助台灣的業者找到具有競爭位置競爭的區域來把他的市場擴大我們剛剛講過了全球的市場"},{"start":9615.333,"end":9636.452,"text":"我想剛才劉主委也講得非常清楚全球市場不是只有美國全球市場這麼大我們的模式就是幫助台灣的產業找到具有競爭力的方向找到這樣的競爭力的產品讓我們在台灣幫助它提升它的競爭力這個是我們經濟部最主要的工作"},{"start":9637.372,"end":9663.266,"text":"所以在這邊也提醒部長包括我們的劉組委跟我們次長那針對於這個對等關稅我們還是在這個整個清單裡面的話我們不是一定是天然氣也可以有新的核能新的核能的採購的話也是一個擴大採購的一個方式這也是可以做的那至於說這個稀產地這個方面的話我們也要多些關心"},{"start":9663.886,"end":9664.246,"text":"我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答"},{"start":9692.418,"end":9693.002,"text":"好 先請郭部長"},{"start":9701.886,"end":9724.22,"text":"國務部長 先請教一下因為大家都關心這個美國的財長點名說優先的五國 韓國 英國 澳洲 印尼跟日本那我們印度跟日本那我們現在因為當時我們的數據上面其實我們應該之前有先談過了嘛部長現在你所了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告委員我們的狀況就是說4月11號我們已經跟美國做這個諮商了"},{"start":9730.031,"end":9754.45,"text":"我們跟諮商了那主要的內容我們在這裡跟委員報告主要的內容就談對等關稅第二個非關稅貿易障礙以及出國管制等這一些多項的這個經貿的議題已經談已經有談了嘛其實也是在賴總統五項那個原則的來跟他們談的嘛整個回應整個川普總統美國政府的回應是"},{"start":9755.151,"end":9777.29,"text":"所以這五點的部分其實都跟美方已經在做談判了嘛是對所以有初步來談了那但是他為什麼財長這樣講他這個點名優先我是先是優先來跟這五個國家先簽訂他們朝這個目標來前進嗎還是說為什麼沒有含在台灣裡面我們已經談了所以其實有談了我們是有談納塔的以色列"},{"start":9778.491,"end":9800.601,"text":"談嘛 在我們之前他也先跟越南談嘛所以這個是有進度的啦對 所以就像賴總統前幾天講的嘛跟以色列跟台灣我們是第一批在談的嘛我們一直在談那但是財長點名這五國也是他們現在優先要處理的目標啦報告委員是這樣子啦談判像我個人的經驗來講談國際談判我在工作這個快50年"},{"start":9806.229,"end":9807.953,"text":"那我這個國際談判也談蠻多的這是我們第一個會去確認這個談判的命題是什麼"},{"start":9814.451,"end":9842.206,"text":"要談什麼東西先確認這樣子不然的話講一堆大家拋來拋去的然後會決定談的內容跟程序這個是第一個先界定的部分第二個才會進入實質的討論大家把資料拿出來實質的討論彼此的利益然後再去談出來第三個在做整體的conclusion我想這是談判的一個過程"},{"start":9842.946,"end":9858.32,"text":"但是我們這一次談的我相信不脫離這種國際談判的一個格式因為美國要跟這麼多的國家談判其實也不容易啦對他來講他一定要確定說你要跟我談什麼 我跟你談什麼"},{"start":9859.841,"end":9887.1,"text":"這個所以是過程所以為什麼他一個禮拜只能談五個國家所以70個大家都要跟他談嘛所以說現在有的會去解讀說不包括台灣事實上台灣已經在談了啦台灣已經談過了OK好我們只是再次的讓外界清楚啦不要被好像某個這樣的講法好像一副台灣是沒有在進行台灣事實上剛剛部長已經提到4月11號已經在進行當中了4月11號已經談過了經濟部的同仁也有參與其中嘛對不對"},{"start":9887.96,"end":9903.476,"text":"經濟部的同仁這個談判小組我不是那麼清楚所以有談了有談就對了沒關係有些讓部長做一些保留這個沒關係那再來我請教那接下來是電費的問題因為我們現在動漲那動漲了之後"},{"start":9908.854,"end":9937.532,"text":"部長現在動漲之後其實因為台電當時為了吸收整個這個油價的部分上漲的部分吸收了大概六千億嘛那我們會再提出最佳預算嗎我到地方上聽到很多人都說接下來他們很擔憂包括美國的這些關稅的問題的時候很擔憂接下來的電價在七八月的時候的這些夏季電價的部分那很多人甚至希望政府要來撥補來支持啊會再提出最佳預算嗎"},{"start":9939.5,"end":9950.262,"text":"報告委員我們會綜合考量實際進行的狀況那麼下季我們下季電價我們在之前就已經"},{"start":9951.847,"end":9975.869,"text":"在討論漲不漲上一次上一次的討論裡面就已經確定這個不漲價對先不漲對不對是這個樣子這樣的進行對那但是台下一波討論這個電價電價委員會他們討論是在這個九月底九月份的對那會不會再提出來經濟部考不考慮再提出來追加預算來降低台電的壓力我們現在是這樣子我上一次有呼籲過"},{"start":9977.17,"end":9999.106,"text":"就是我們考慮所有的這個國家的這個CPI然後這些狀況那考慮這個關稅的這個衝擊所以我們在3月的時候就提出來不漲價但是我們真的為了台電的經營台電的財務的狀況我們真的希望我們當初所提出來2000億的撥補"},{"start":10001.147,"end":10030.619,"text":"能夠大院能夠通過讓我們可以拿到這個2000億撥補來改善我台電的差異所以部長的意思應該是還是要繼續支持希望能夠支持2000億一樣來撥補台電那至於用什麼樣的形式的部分的話經濟部會來研議啦齁但是事實上還是希望用這個2000億撥補這樣的形式上來協助台電這樣的話能夠對我們台電馬上有提綱確定的這樣這個力險的這樣的改善效果我也希望把那個所有的方式全部提出來啦好不好"},{"start":10030.879,"end":10052.785,"text":"就是說因為現在聽起來在野黨很多也慢慢也覺得說應該對的產業不要受到影響所以希望來支持台電的時候我也希望部長把這些方案也再次把它提出來好不好讓台電不要承受這麼巨大的一個財務上的壓力是 謝謝委員好 那再來我請教一下現在我們關稅有881的一個支持方案裡面有700億是跟工業有關"},{"start":10055.186,"end":10067.844,"text":"這個應該是一個底標嘛就是說因為隨著談判的結果會有不同的跟美國談判會有不同的一些狀況嘛對不對但是政府支持這些基礎傳統產業支持中小企業支持受影響的產業這個態度沒有變嘛對不對"},{"start":10069.867,"end":10090.926,"text":"完全沒有變所以我們會隨時來談議長但我想這是一個底標就是說當然我們希望最後談的結果很好大家不受影響或者是影響很低那當然政府就可以比較不用花這麼多的財源但是如果他的影響是很大的因為談判處在變動那這881是底標嘛有可能再往上追加是吧"},{"start":10091.566,"end":10118.886,"text":"这个我想院长在座谈会的时候也都有指示要请大家放心基本上基于辅助这个产业具有竞争力的状况之下我们也不希望这些产业失去这样的市占率比如说它在美国的市场占有率它如果失掉了然后要再回去其实也不太容易所以我们希望在这一波谈判的结果"},{"start":10119.486,"end":10125.382,"text":"完成之前這個應該就是您所說的這個底標那如果真的不足"},{"start":10126.297,"end":10156.117,"text":"我們會增加會繼續追加嘛我想這個沒有問題啦那本來今天要公布的要延後一周公布細節嘛那應該也是因為跟會跟談的也會有相關因為我們經過市場的一個座談會啊那每個業者都有提出一些新的這樣的一個建議確實當初我們在這個這個構思的時候有一些沒有放進去像這個大家的這個舊的貸款啊是不是可以延續啊等等當初沒有想到"},{"start":10156.597,"end":10184.986,"text":"那現在因為這個這個院長他有指示嘛雨天不收傘所以全力支持我們的這個產業所以在這個部分的話我們會做微調所以會延後一個禮拜對我也希望這個方案啊另外當然也希望談判的過程一方面是聽到了地方企業的聲音啊另外一方面也希望談判過程的部分對我們是有更有利的一些狀況現在當然是用比較不好的狀況去估嘛但是希望談的過程"},{"start":10185.806,"end":10201.622,"text":"有更好狀況我們現在都用那個32%的最糟糕的狀況做基本檢測這個才能夠最能夠有效的去協助到這些產業好那我們期待下禮拜出來那再來剛剛部長有提到雨天收傘這件事情我也希望"},{"start":10202.362,"end":10220.356,"text":"對於這段時間特別是不要抽銀根我幾乎聽到不管是從產業界到農業界都是這樣大家擔憂都是被抽銀根這件事情我希望這件事情還是要請包括部長 包括主委跟金管會跟整個財務部裡面都要做溝通"},{"start":10221.076,"end":10234.466,"text":"銀行在這段時間要繼續支持不要在這個時間反而緊縮了我就認為這個這是最快能夠協助產業的一個很好的方法是的好不好這請部長要持續的反映最後一個小問題可能跟你們那個但也是重大的問題"},{"start":10236.447,"end":10257.977,"text":"我兩三年前有講我們的詐騙這個相當大比例來自於臉書那其實今天我看到那個新聞其實蠻心痛的一個林建榮他是刑事警察局的他自己在抓這個防詐結果他因為點了進去之後反倒是更多的推播詐騙廣告給他我從一兩年前的時候就不斷在講臉書有絕對有能力去"},{"start":10259.057,"end":10282.705,"text":"辨別出哪些是詐騙的訊息那如果你不有效去賭你內控機制不做的話整天要警政署幫你檢查查到再告訴你再下架受騙者已經多少更何況我認為這幾乎是一個共犯嘛你詐騙者賺詐騙的錢你賺詐騙者的廣告那這當然是一個共犯結構這很惡劣啊那為什麼臉書都有條件去演算法連"},{"start":10284.325,"end":10307.556,"text":"連降載都能降流都能降得下來了有些關鍵都能降流了你最這麼容易判斷出來的詐騙的廣告你卻無法辯對它我認為臉書是沒有誠意也不認真甚至於共犯結構在處理這個問題我希望訴法部當然在處理我希望經濟部和國發會展現你們的影響力給臉書更大的壓力好不好不要想要來賺台灣這樣的錢但是連這種詐騙這種錢都不放過我認為這有點惡劣啦"},{"start":10313.039,"end":10336.192,"text":"這其實做得到 我一兩年前就一直在講這件事情那我認為我請經濟部跟國安法會能夠更加重視這問題 詐騙是人民最痛絕的讓很多人傾家蕩產 甚至於犧牲了生命 輕生了我認為這個部分政府要更強要作為 而臉書現在既然佔最高的比例的時候我們希望部長跟整個主委都有影響力 對臉書也都有產業的關係"},{"start":10338.894,"end":10360.161,"text":"多跟他們溝通 請他們要重視這個問題如果要進入台灣的市場 要賺台灣的錢要負起該有的企業責任不要連這種東西該過濾掉的都不過濾掉你在平台擋掉這些詐騙廣告看不到的詐騙人數大幅減少了嘛那你連這種詐騙廣告都讓他不斷的跳出來還 因為點了一則詐騙來更多的詐騙廣告全部跳出來給你"},{"start":10361.681,"end":10387.146,"text":"這種點算難怪人家諷刺得要命好不好 這請部長跟主委請你們要放在心上不跟你們直接相關但是跟政府完全相關我希望你們協助給臉書壓力讓臉書能夠認真的解決這個問題好不好 部長是 全力以赴好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答真的喔 好 那你等一下"},{"start":10398.507,"end":10427.796,"text":"好 謝謝當然隨時都準備好了來 謝謝主席有請經濟部國務部長國會劉主委國務部長 劉主委委員好部長我很詳細看您的報告那報告當然有些重點我大概請問一下就是捷克我們設立這個所謂你境外 關內這個部分捷克已經上路了嘛"},{"start":10428.925,"end":10449.742,"text":"也可以已經上路了嗎?是那目前執行狀況怎麼樣?我們現在還是在協助國內的廠商做一些貿易諮詢那現在不是外管的經濟組就可以做了嗎?但是外管來講的話我們在那個地方"},{"start":10451.906,"end":10468.545,"text":"確實啦我們現在因為人力的問題啦因為境外關聯是一個很大的一個概念你要去捷克投資或者捷克台灣投資你找到他就可以解決所有的問題是不是你的觀念想法是這樣子沒有錯嘛不是那你的想法是怎麼樣"},{"start":10469.551,"end":10493.712,"text":"報告委員 所謂的境外 就是中華民國國境之外就是在捷克 在福岡 或者在美國某一地嘛 對不對 在境外那官內的意思是什麼官內就是屬於中華民國政府啊 可以進入協助他們落地那外管能不能協助外管很難啦 外管基本上 報告委員外管也有經濟組啊NO NO 外管是從事外交工作"},{"start":10494.757,"end":10515.523,"text":"你們經濟組當然是協助招商經濟組是附屬在裡面經濟組是您管的 是您派任的嘛你可以加強規模我的意思是說你要有這個境外官內實質的功能而不是只有表面上的意義您聽我說完如果你的人力不夠 你的授權不足傑克桑那邊 他只是一個諮詢"},{"start":10516.943,"end":10535.417,"text":"他沒辦法馬上得到他應有的協助比方說一個捷克廠商要台灣投資或者台灣去捷克投資台灣去捷克投資我透過這個那個什麼貿易外貿協會就可以了嘛所以我的意思是你要花費功能我想請教你"},{"start":10536.607,"end":10562.456,"text":"捷克成立到現在有多少的這個捷克廠商透過這個貿易投資中心來請求協助有沒有相關資料我們是基本上是輔助台灣的廠商到捷克或者是中東歐去做一些不是 你問的報告是說捷克廠商跟台灣投資也可以透過那邊去取得資賬沒有 你看到你的報告同仁是不是這樣子是雙邊的嘛"},{"start":10564.226,"end":10568.324,"text":"沒有錯吧是雙邊的 沒有錯嘛我看我很仔細在研究這個問題嘛"},{"start":10570.188,"end":10595.106,"text":"是雙邊的 捷克要來台灣投資或是台灣要去捷克投資來台灣投資是我們的投資台灣的這樣一個部門我們只要服務的是捷克商是捷克要來台灣投資對不對捷克要來台灣投資的是我們投資師的工作那我們台商要去捷克投資那個才是我們的貿易中心的工作"},{"start":10597.412,"end":10599.953,"text":"我們現在的貿協有一點稍微不足的地方貿協只做貿易推廣"},{"start":10614.739,"end":10641.078,"text":"所以這裡面有一點我贊成啦 那個保留 我贊成但是我要有實質的說你現在4月底要在福岡福岡有機會我去看看到底是怎麼運作的4月底什麼時候要成立報告委員 我們未來我們真正的落實是這樣我們在那個貿易中心將來我們要在那邊做一個虛擬的我來瞭解 我實際去瞭解一下你4月底日本設立嘛時間點出來了嗎 當時"},{"start":10643.359,"end":10654.38,"text":"我們4月21號就會揭牌我有時間去看一看 謝謝到底有沒有實施境外達到境外關聯的功能美國也會成立今年下半年也會成立"},{"start":10655.748,"end":10674.706,"text":"我覺得對中小企業的協助你除了財政部這些待會兒負稅署負稅署這個李署長是不是一起來這個相關的稅務包括出口金融支持等等輸出保惠優惠通關這些措施大概是財政部在執行那我覺得經濟部可以協助的部分"},{"start":10676.072,"end":10696.003,"text":"你水電可以給它減免 水電是經濟部國營事業你水電針對這些受影響 比如說這個船產 比如說家裡這個金屬構建這個手工具 或者機器業你水電要給它減免 讓成本可以降低 你可以做得到的"},{"start":10696.403,"end":10718.618,"text":"報告委員我想這一部分我們現在有一個措施在進行就是我們的節能減碳我們的ESCO這裡面都有一些措施我們會透過這樣子的一個辦法來協助他能夠有效率的使用能源我直接就告訴他這個這半年或者這一年受到關稅的衝擊我的水電給你減少50%我們現在水電都是虧損的狀況我知道啦 虧損當然"},{"start":10724.142,"end":10746.579,"text":"他們虧損更嚴重不是 我們現在幫助他幫助他能夠節能減碳我們有這個我是救急 不是救窮啦你能夠做你所掌握的政策工具裡面除了財政部的規劃是財政部在執行之外我說你可以做的水電的減免最直接而且對他們最有管成本馬上降低嘛這個齁"},{"start":10748.617,"end":10768.588,"text":"我跟委員報告這個部分可能會違反美國的所謂的補貼我知道WTO我也了解但是你這是個暫時性的緊急處置措施我們的方法就是趕快透過節能減碳的這樣一個措施來幫助它永遠的競爭力長期的工作"},{"start":10772.41,"end":10799.219,"text":"那馬上改 誰可以反應 我提出來 你們要不要做 你們自己去評估廠商給我說 我最直接 你最直接給我解免我的成本降低 我競爭力還可以維持 我就不會倒了這給您做參考 是 謝謝文言 劉書偉產創條例 你要政府加速產創條例投資修法我上回期我把它修了啊 為什麼你現在還修什麼他現在還沒有過"},{"start":10800.956,"end":10824.522,"text":"我委員會通過了 現在等院會院會總質詢之後就算通過了這個我當招募的時候通過的啊對我以為你另外一位在提產生條例沒有吧沒有 但是因為現在新的法案還沒有辦法公告另外經濟部這個三大投資海外方案我那天在院會質詢2027 調整一個調整你先講兩次資格調整"},{"start":10830.632,"end":10855.378,"text":"那產業調整這個部分到底公布了沒有還沒有他因為到期我們這個2024已經到期了現在2025的這個4月份我們新的跟委員報告我們針對這次的關稅問題我們有一個擴大方案包括我們的融資都擴大一倍那這個都要等院核定"},{"start":10856.525,"end":10884.363,"text":"我了解啦但是你們這個要趕快合訂而且我們產業也擴大了因為很多非中國其他地方的台商要回來因為非紅供應鏈的問題必須要回來但是你們沒有這個方案趕快公佈他們沒有辦法有所依據啊所以我要給你們趕快這三大方案延長到底內容是怎麼樣趕快公告好的另外你說產業再造基金什麼是產業再造基金"},{"start":10885.461,"end":10895.893,"text":"我們現在是有一個實驗性的基金就是過去我們去提醒產業你需要去轉型你國安會要出多少錢我們已經出了我們出了12億那總共30億的基金在第一期"},{"start":10904.562,"end":10929.872,"text":"那過去的做法是說廠商有時候聽完不見了會去動作那我們現在這個基金會有人會去購買股權之後有人進去管理協助他轉型之後再退出我跟你說不要創造新的名詞你這既然說推動產業再造產業要怎麼再造你要不要再造到什麼樣的一個一個一個境界什麼樣的程度對不對不是說你拿到12億你就說你要推動產業再造是針對傳統產業"},{"start":10932.153,"end":10936.264,"text":"突破瓶頸那你現在是跟推動傳統產業升級有什麼關係一樣的概念嘛 對不對"},{"start":10940.819,"end":10967.088,"text":"所以你要把傳統產業升級你要推到2.0版對 這是跟過去這個是不太一樣的概念那其實我們是多條路在進行這只是其中一個一條那這一條主要是說過去我們喊那麼多大家不見得會動或者是他不知道如何做我舉個例跟委員報告我們第一次提出來就有廠商主動來報名因為他們發現他們上市之後呢他們沒有國際化管理能力"},{"start":10967.788,"end":10989.674,"text":"他就很希望這個基金能夠進去協助他們因為基金要發揮功能能立即解決問題你那麼多 大家都問我說什麼是再造基金我說我要問一下劉金青 劉書偉大家都不知道什麼基金的內容再造基金到底是什麼東西能夠協助幫忙哪些事項現在川普對等關稅現在已經正式執行了是不是對中國的關稅4月9號對145萬對100多已經正式上路了嗎對"},{"start":10996.909,"end":11024.764,"text":"一個禮拜了對不對從10月9號開始一個禮拜那在中國投資的台商有沒有跟政府有相關的反應你們有沒有接到相關的訊息跟委員報告其實在屬於現在原來原來有很多台商就是規劃快速的轉回來尤其是已經台灣有工廠的他們希望利用台商的台灣的工廠能夠進行做最後組裝達到原產力的規定"},{"start":11025.624,"end":11043.645,"text":"那但是因為現在有一些屬於通訊類等等的這幾個屬於在在還在一個擴免期的部分就稍微遲到但其他的部分現在有在移動他首當其衝面臨到第一波就145%高關稅在中國投資的廠商他們一定想回來會移到第三地沒錯 沒錯"},{"start":11045.447,"end":11073.876,"text":"那他們所當前遇到的問題 我覺得145%短時間可能沒有辦法去改變 對不對所以他們勢必在最短時間之內 他們就想回來 或者移出中國回來最快 那我們能夠給他什麼樣的協助 因為他們藍莓之極啊175%耶 因為專業在中國比較多耶 是不是這樣對 所以你可能要了解這個我們還是跟經濟部的這個投資台灣辦公室 我們現在是緊密的在合作好 謝謝 謝謝主委 謝謝部長"},{"start":11074.969,"end":11079.113,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請李昆城委員做詢答謝謝主席那我們請經濟部我們郭部長"},{"start":11102.369,"end":11122,"text":"委員好部長好 辛苦了我記得我們是在上個禮拜五4月11日透過視訊的方式跟美國進行了有關關稅的談判是不是是那美方的這個談判大概的層級方便透露嗎"},{"start":11123.211,"end":11138.867,"text":"我不是談判委員那你知不知道說談判的內容談判的內容跟委員報告就是說我們大概第一個是談這個對等關稅第二個是非關稅貿易障礙第三個出國管制"},{"start":11140.151,"end":11158.89,"text":"以上這三個命題那這三個議題本來就是我們所關心的嘛那我的意思是說跟美方談完之後有沒有我們一些政策要去做調整的到目前為止我們沒有收到談判小組的一些需求可是已經差不多一個禮拜的時間了"},{"start":11160.659,"end":11177.188,"text":"就是說談完之後還沒有說我們目前的這個不論是總統府或是行政院關於這次的這個關稅一些政策然後因為有談判之後我們有哪一些需要做調整有哪些不足的或是有哪一些下一回合繼續在跟他們談的內容"},{"start":11178.268,"end":11205.14,"text":"是報告委員談判進行中有很多不便在這裡報告的地方我知道啦但是就是說就我剛才所提到的有沒有方便可以提供訊息的地方也讓我們的業者能夠安心大家可以安心啦我想這個總統跟院長都曾經在4月12號跟大家報告過了談判的過程非常的這個順暢大概沒有什麼太大的問題"},{"start":11206.424,"end":11213.29,"text":"我可以問一下談判時間大概多久嗎這個在談判的時間多久我其實也沒有掌握"},{"start":11215.253,"end":11239.016,"text":"你都沒有想要說像我一樣去關心一下說談判單一天的視訊談判大概時間有多久然後有關經濟部的內容大概是怎麼樣我們都分工合作啦我想談判小組然後他們需要我們的資料support我們都會來準備是這樣子好那半導體的部分有談到嗎"},{"start":11241.087,"end":11266.379,"text":"我到目前為止沒有收到談判小組的指示好那預期會不會有第二輪的這個談判當然會有因為這個第一個談判是在談判決定第二次談判的時候要談什麼它裡面的重點是什麼那有沒有第二次的談判的範圍大概是在哪裡就是剛才所講的那裡面那就是第一次"},{"start":11267.66,"end":11295.929,"text":"所以第二次跟第一次談的應該會更具體更聚焦才對啊對啊是更具體更聚焦只是我們那個是在進行中的事情好那我就問說這個有關半導體跟藥品因為現在這個美國他們認為說這個是屬於這個有關國安的部分那他們有可能會再克制關稅但是不論是半導體或是藥品對我們來講都相當的重要那尤其是半導體的部分的話那我想請教一下部長就半導體這部分的話跟美方"},{"start":11296.625,"end":11323.239,"text":"談判的這個情況是怎麼樣現在還沒有進入談這個部分美國他必須要針對這個因為對美國來講半導體是一個非常重要特別是先進半導體這屬於他國安的問題所以美國在跟我們談之前他現在正在做一波國安的調查所以我們政府的立場就是密切的觀察"},{"start":11324.86,"end":11345.673,"text":"這個調查到目前到結果會怎麼樣那對我們來講我們也了解國內的半導體廠商了解他們的狀況以後我們會積極的跟美國的政府來協商因為畢竟台灣的半導體跟美國的業者彼此的關係是非常緊密的我想就您所知道的"},{"start":11346.153,"end":11359.321,"text":"比如說昨天這個AMD他們來台灣跟我們的供應鏈在開會在談事情也就是說大家很清楚AMD是Fabless的公司所有的供應鏈都是由台灣這邊來製造來組裝的"},{"start":11363.503,"end":11377.794,"text":"所以這個地方因為我們做完的東西要回到美國對他來講所有的稅對他來講都是他要付的問題不是我們付所以台灣跟美國來講在半導體這個領域裡面是完全的策略夥伴"},{"start":11379.466,"end":11406.608,"text":"所以不是只有我們關心他是user所以美國的七大科技產業幾乎都把製造圍給台灣所以這個命題來講其實對我們台灣來講對客人美國的客人更是非常的重大我知道所以我相信這個美國政府他也會考慮這樣的一個狀況大概半導體如果以美國政府的考量那50%世界的市場都是在美國"},{"start":11407.796,"end":11417.803,"text":"那你們有做過模擬關稅就像之前的關稅我們有模擬就是說大概幾%到幾%那有關於半導體的關稅你們有個模擬大概會落在多少到多少之間嗎"},{"start":11419.345,"end":11436.122,"text":"這個我想這個要由這個美國那一方面來提出來他們當然會提出來 因為他現在在做調查嘛 對不對那我們這邊應該有因應嘛 就像是之前就是說這個4月2號之前我們也是做這個關稅的模擬那現在沒想到說一下子課到32%當然後來他也做調整了 現在先10%那我的意思是說 我們經濟部有沒有對這個半導體的這個關稅"},{"start":11443.089,"end":11470.108,"text":"因為這裡面大概我們會當然會有一些模擬就是理性的模擬會怎麼樣做那非理性的模擬又會怎麼做但是超過這兩個範圍的話我們就很難去把握不過我們現在的策略上面就是希望推動國內的業者跟美國的業者共同"},{"start":11471.667,"end":11484.064,"text":"來關心這個命題然後希望也就是說不是只有我們單方面的就是我們也希望說我們也跟美方的業者來講因為最後他們的產品是由他們來做的"},{"start":11484.997,"end":11509.277,"text":"那是不是也透過他們來希望讓美國的這個不管是貿易部或是他們的這個談判單位能夠就關稅這方面一起來合作來做一個管控美國他會針對半導體跟藥品這個命題對世界丟出一個他想要談的關稅就像之前的這個鋼跟鋁這樣一樣"},{"start":11512.179,"end":11539.41,"text":"然後在各個國家來跟他談這個是談判的一個手法基本上我們會爭取讓我們台灣的廠商具有競爭力的關稅我們要求他是在一個立足點是一個非常平等的具有競爭力的關稅這個是我們跟美國的這些客戶共同努力的一個方向那我們有跟台積電有談過了嗎"},{"start":11541.414,"end":11550.367,"text":"我們跟台積電台積電是一個Fabless的公司它並不是一個品牌公司對 我說有跟我就是說有跟台積電提過說未來半導體的關稅"},{"start":11553.592,"end":11578.145,"text":"他們有沒有一個範圍我們其實跟委員報告我們其實2024年輸到美國的被認定這個半導體只有74億的美金佔全球出口量只有4.6%所以很難這樣去定義那所以你的意思是說我們要等這一個川普那邊宣布了對半導體的關稅是多少之後我們再來去跟他們談嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":11579.005,"end":11596.922,"text":"沒有這是我們現在大家在努力嘛大家在努力美國的客戶他們會直接跟美國的政府去反應嘛台灣這邊我們不斷的這個也是準備讓談判小組有更豐富的這些資訊嘛那將來在談判的時候可以拿出來好OK好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請鍾嘉賓委員做詢答"},{"start":11615.882,"end":11642.618,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關組長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們財政部理事長還有經濟部郭部長 以及國發會的劉主委主委好次長好 部長好 主委好 題目是即時應應對關稅展延的資金需求要提早佈局未來產業的有案分工 來"},{"start":11643.277,"end":11665.186,"text":"首先請教一下次長 你看看這個本來要課高關稅 展延90天 結果科技業出貨潮本來爆倉 未來週末倉位是滿的 要趕在關稅後來有可能變高前 有貨先過去有沒有看到這樣的現象 次長除了倉位有需求之外 有沒有資金的需求"},{"start":11666.796,"end":11692.063,"text":"應該也是會有資金的需求好我們來看一下美國川普政府的超高關稅嚇倒了全國的出口業全世界出口業本來約訂單暫停結果暫緩90天現在大量訂單湧入除了原料採購才能全開有沒有本來我們的880億是要因應那種貨出不去訂單被取消融資被斷頭那現在轉過來希望說趕快給他一點融通的資金趕快要補辦進貨出料"},{"start":11695.171,"end":11720.234,"text":"財政部有沒有準備目前財政部有沒有針對我們各產業因為展延90天的現況而這個產業的資金需求能不能即時的到位報告委員其實我們所有的公股行庫實際上都有運用一些自由的資金在目前平常就在協助這些產業平常就有 這時候額外需要 我要看郭部長的臉色"},{"start":11720.854,"end":11736.336,"text":"看看有沒有轉好來 我們往下一頁 部長其實呢 洗產地的事情我問過很多次了今天呢 我就不再贅述但是還是要來了解一下到底台灣怎麼迎來其實呢 在2018年川普1.0之前我們台灣在應對"},{"start":11737.964,"end":11749.572,"text":"美國的時候我們台灣會有關鍵的零組件然後在中國沿海地區有我們的相關的產業鏈供應鏈做零組件內地的便宜的勞動力來去組裝然後銷美國這是2018年的情況但是川普1.0之後變成什麼"},{"start":11754.695,"end":11770.408,"text":"變成是啊如果說這些零組件呢直接從中國出去不行結果我們就有一個Plan A我們有個自貿港關鍵零組件在台灣但是不需要太多勞動力的呢零組件到台灣配上去就消美國是不是這樣這就是所謂境內關外部長是不是這樣子"},{"start":11772.308,"end":11796.87,"text":"是這樣的一個過去啦對對對好那另外一個模式是怎樣越南取而代之越南說我有很多的勞動力把昆山蘇州上海周邊這些電子產業的零組件送到越南來台灣把關鍵資源送過去組裝好後Plan B就到美國事業有這樣的方向過去這幾年越南走這條路嗎是好我們看一看"},{"start":11797.349,"end":11820.398,"text":"那現在我們看看 自貿區可以直接進儲 不用核准 是這樣嗎目前應該是這樣好 所以你看 自貿區在2024年我們的自由港進出口破3兆2024的貨櫃破300萬那過去我們現在川普說你這個不能直接中國銷美國 所以我們在台組裝"},{"start":11822.489,"end":11843.888,"text":"還有呢中轉他國直接在台灣過個水就出去那現在怎麼防止中國貨路呢是 報告委員我們大概有四點可以來這個防止第一個就是來監測進口量好 第二點那麼跟蘇美的產品做全面的勾擊對比這是第一點第二點從嚴處罰最高罰300萬或者取消進出口商的資格"},{"start":11849.733,"end":11859.917,"text":"第三個我們加強反傾銷的調查我都幫你寫好了部長就這一頁我都寫好了因為你們有講過嘛我們委託風總輔導廠商來來來我們來看一下桃園航空城"},{"start":11864.571,"end":11884.032,"text":"我們2024三兆的產值呢桃園貢獻了2.4兆而且2025年還有一個台北港要一個智慧車輛園區但是在2018年到2024年經濟部根據自由港的條例到歐盟到英國的美國的自行車電動輔助自行車履制輪胎圈到先核准什麼意思部長認為為什麼這樣子"},{"start":11886.581,"end":11901.484,"text":"因為自貿區本來不用核定的嘛但這幾個東西這些進口國認為有息產地嘛所以要先核准嘛 是不是這樣是啊 確保台灣有這個產地所以說自貿區要防止息產地在川普2.0之後也行不通了那麼"},{"start":11902.225,"end":11930.406,"text":"越南的部分呢也被美國盯得很死也行不通了所以好像有一個說法譬如說另外找個像菲律賓這樣的國家他有很多的勞動力把一些原來台灣消美的零組件呢產業鏈移到菲律賓台灣的關鍵零組件到那邊去這個是不是就是你所謂的境外關內的一種模式是的是的很好所以呢我們往下看所以未來境外關內可能是應對所謂的息產地自貿區的模式不可行的時候來接下來我們看劉主委劉主委"},{"start":11931.96,"end":11947.775,"text":"台灣現在有一個國家火箭發射基地了嘛是不是對現在選定九棚嘛目前在美國SPEX有四個發射基地SPEX一次可以發射143顆低軌道的通訊衛星那麼未來有沒有可能台灣也可以來協助像"},{"start":11948.876,"end":11972.5,"text":"團客的大巴士有SPEX但是呢兩三顆的小型的即時的送到我們台灣來發射有沒有這個可能呢台灣可不可以提供低軌道通訊衛星的運載服務有沒有可能從產業的發展來講這是有可能的有可能的我們可以跟美國合作團客你處理散客我來接對不對那台灣需要什麼需要運載火箭台灣現在有辦法獨立完成運載火箭的裝備嗎我們預計2027年可以自己有對"},{"start":11975.461,"end":11999.332,"text":"但是我們可不可能跟美國分工以前我們跟美國買波音航空客我來載但是飛機你來賣所以我們跟美國買飛機有沒有可能未來我們跟美國買火箭或買火箭當中的比較高關鍵的像火箭引擎那我們台灣組裝後來發射有沒有可能這是有可能的是的所以我要跟郭部長跟主委說的就是說其實未來我們的產業除了"},{"start":12000.332,"end":12023.782,"text":"自貿區不可行 防止稀產地要努力 跟美國的銷售之外我們不要老是只是想賣東西給他 想辦法也跟他買東西來我們看看 川普說什麼 大再工業化 請問劉主委川普的再工業化是把鋼鐵拉回來美國 造船又拉回來美國運動鞋 球拍 紡織品 筆電 自行車都美國自己製造嗎汽車都自己製造 是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":12025.457,"end":12050.439,"text":"我個人比較看法是說它應該整合對它友好的國家形成一個新的供應鏈機器是的所以它的再工業化不是重度最快效率最高是再分工化對不對對所以中高階的美國留著中低階的排除中國後交給有岸來外包像無人機無人機台灣現在死神不是死神這個等級的無人機美國不會交給別國生產"},{"start":12051.44,"end":12076.915,"text":"但是像中國的大疆那種低中低界的無人機會不會希望台灣結合以色列跟東歐的光電球我們來生產會不會這是有可能的因為我們正在復建這樣的能力是的所以說全球的而且我們已經有代工廠商已經產生了已經產生了嘛所以全球的產業重組的時候呢我們希望我們國發會要瞄準未來的產業需求不是只在現有的產業格局下跟美國去討論說有沒有中國成分"},{"start":12077.395,"end":12089.525,"text":"而是希望找到他的美國的再分工當中台灣居一個有利的位置跟美國分工合作你同意嗎同意好所以這時候的資金人力土地跟公共建設的需要來最後三個問題分別請第一個對不起國發會"},{"start":12092.526,"end":12120.501,"text":"是不是已經評估未來的產業需求拟據了產業在全球化市佔據所需要的這四缺的這些狀況而且有解決方案國發委員會開始準備了這個有的有的好最後來請財政部財政部次長因應台灣產業受美國對等關稅影響短期資金需求提出一個方案報告可以嗎可以沒問題好請經濟部對於在中國的台商撤出中國後進駐境外關內園區的輔導方案可以提出一個說明嗎報告"},{"start":12121.958,"end":12148.229,"text":"這個境外觀念是您的嘛您的倡議嘛我要深得您的倡議的精髓來幫忙講這個事情最後請國發委研議全國去中供應鏈的情況之下如何提高台灣的產業全球市佔率和解決到所需要的資金人才土地跟供應建設的方案提出來一個報告跟說明可以跟本席嗎這可以啊好 謝謝主委 謝謝次長 謝謝部長好 謝謝我們現在請蔡依瑜委員做詢答"},{"start":12151.485,"end":12164.797,"text":"中午不休息 延長開會時間謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請國發會 劉主委跟經濟部部長劉主委 郭部長委員好好 我先"},{"start":12177.95,"end":12205.939,"text":"我先請教郭部長部長現在川普因為這兩個禮拜來看起來他對於關稅這件事情心中有想法但是目前的說法很亂包括說他原先說可能會對電子產品就是類似像手機這一類的會作為關稅的豁免但是他後來又否認說他沒有這樣說那現在也說下個禮拜可能會對半導體"},{"start":12208.301,"end":12215.966,"text":"來開始科稅科關稅那以及會啟動232的一個調查那這樣的話對於整個半導體的影響部長你的判斷呢我想因為我們在半導體這個領域裡面跟美國來講很多跟美國的客戶是互補的"},{"start":12229.588,"end":12247.205,"text":"那美國大概都是Fabless的公司嘛很多是Design House那他的產品是透過我們台灣這些Foundry公司幫他製造所以我們做完交回去美國啊那這個稅客更多就是他美國這些品牌公司他要負責"},{"start":12247.925,"end":12261.801,"text":"當然他要負擔這個關稅後的成本的提高嘛對不對但是事實上除了我們跟美國之間的關稅之外因為半導體畢竟他只是電子產品中的一個零組件"},{"start":12262.982,"end":12288.522,"text":"中的一個部分他很重要他要驅動整個整個這個科技產品的運作但是他也是裡面的材料之一所以他基本上他這個半導體可能會擴散到很多不同的國家像中國也會這個晶片跑到了中國然後在那邊組裝變成科技產品再銷售到美國或者是其他像越南這樣的國家事實上都是有可能的"},{"start":12288.982,"end":12305.864,"text":"那這樣的話美國在這個科與關稅的時候他又講到科技產品可能會豁免但是半導體不豁免那這樣的話會不會變成說未來半導體就大家想說那我就不要到美國就好了啊我到其他國家去啊"},{"start":12306.673,"end":12325.293,"text":"是 報告委員我想這樣子美國的這個客戶啊大概對高階的半導體大概美國客戶都表示大概四五成的這個用戶用量在美國所以他還是要進到美國啦還是會有這樣的一個市場這是美國會考量啦但是對我們國內的半導體業現在是"},{"start":12327.936,"end":12347.107,"text":"很頭痛啊我們現在最重要的是跟美國的客戶表達就是說台美是合作的夥伴讓美國的政府可以了解不是說這些東西跟日本的商品是一樣的這不一樣所以這些中間商品"},{"start":12348.208,"end":12363.061,"text":"要來課稅其實是有它的難度但是我相信美國他們也會去計算這一點我們大概目前還不清楚他怎麼來課但是我們從最近美國開始美國政府在進行國安的調查"},{"start":12364.215,"end":12390.645,"text":"因為他認為半導體這高階的半導體影響他的國家安全所以我們台灣這邊進入也是密切的觀察這樣的一個措施所以我們會了解這個結果以後積極的跟美國政府來協商透過這一次的談判我們積極跟他協商最後表達的台灣就是美國的策略夥伴"},{"start":12391.405,"end":12397.071,"text":"所以他在下這個關稅的時候不要只針對台灣"},{"start":12399.391,"end":12423.898,"text":"就是要針對台灣因為是夥伴所以要區隔跟部長我們跟美國的整個生產的鏈是很多是高度互補所以我們跟美國事實上是就從你所說的來做戰略上的夥伴這個是一個很好的一個方向所以未來的談判那麼期待會有一個好的一個結果那部長那就你的判斷從411的一個視訊會談那你覺得"},{"start":12427.359,"end":12441.998,"text":"台灣會跟美國還有第二波或者是第三波的一個會談嗎還是411講完後他們就已經要把它變成定見了沒有沒有 這個國際談判國際談判不會說一次就談完不會一次談完嘛他先定義我們要談什麼"},{"start":12443.875,"end":12468.634,"text":"所以411都主要在做定義就是定義嘛哪一些東西談哪一些東西不談好那我想部長接下來整個談判我想第一個對於產業的一個守護啦以及當然這是農業部的問題對於整個農業應該要台灣還是要有自己的一個守護我們台灣本土我們糧食安全的這個立場我想這個談判都是很重要的啦好那下一個我要問這個國發會國發會這個主委"},{"start":12474.716,"end":12475.137,"text":"就是說這個關稅暫停暫停90天"},{"start":12479.522,"end":12503.562,"text":"那台灣現在看起來就是有一股極端效應那這個極端耶大家都要掛在這三個月每個月都快出來了可能在美國那邊的客戶也說不然你剩現在10%的時間都先來那所以就變成說這個極端效應變成說現在會出了那我擔心的是說現在出貨那三個月之後哇"},{"start":12504.58,"end":12532.02,"text":"沒辦法出啦而且這個在過去也發生過在疫情那一段時間那個整個船運塞港的時候有一段時間大家都趕著出貨在出貨完後 哇 忽然一間不管是做卡特車的啦 做樓梯的 做零件的全部都說 哇 他們那裡倉庫滿滿不需要台灣的訂單那現在這一波急波效應會不會在三個月之後也發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":12535.224,"end":12561.516,"text":"這個是有可能的因為現在幾乎所有的產業都在趕貨但是我們希望利用這三個月的時間積極的輔導廠商進行供應鏈的移轉跟新市場的開發然後來面對將來在高速的出貨之後主委要開發新市場豈是那麼簡單三個月要請他們他們只能開始著手去努力"},{"start":12562.256,"end":12590.634,"text":"啊到真的到接著到市場黑衣頂就是對那個都要點時間了但是至少利用這幾個空檔往前走這段時間是極端嘛都是短期的啊那之後會變成一個空窗期在進入空窗期之後我們可以想像的可能就會衍生出這個就業的問題啊或者是工廠波瀾間變成停擺這個倒不至於因為這三個月會讓廠商收入的現金會"},{"start":12591.815,"end":12607.473,"text":"比以往高很多啦那就跟我們當年在疫情結束之後瞬間急凍了一年多大家都可以過得還不錯的原因啦那這個企業一定是但是我在急凍的那一年我聽到很多企業事實上事實上他們還是有受創啊"},{"start":12608.937,"end":12620.946,"text":"因為有時候極端跟穩定的工作他是不一樣的另外一個事情我想也跟委員報告因為整個全球都在談判那美國第二個如果我們再回頭去看川普1.0的時候川普1.0的時候他訂出高關稅之後呢"},{"start":12624.639,"end":12640.732,"text":"它會經過美國內部的一個審議期跟建議期建議出來的清單呢並不最後呢它總會有一些會放寬的部分所以我們還是要等待那是談判的結果同時要等待這段期間的一些變化因為現在這個變化是很"},{"start":12642.775,"end":12659.909,"text":"幾乎每天都在變所以我們就是得我們得去準備好我們自己未來的競爭力那集單總不可能三個月之後你就走大陣子就有了三個月後再繼續出貨所以未來的競爭力一定要準備他就抓大陣子抓時間這個時間會衍生一些社會問題我覺得我們國大會應該要開始去思考是 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請張家俊委員做詢問"},{"start":12682.973,"end":12688.583,"text":"謝謝召委我想請劉志偉還有郭部長劉志偉 郭部長委員好"},{"start":12695.57,"end":12701.914,"text":"部長早安 然後劉主委早安我想先請問劉主委根據賴總統411的說法台灣跟美國進行視訊商議而且台灣列在美國第一波的談判名單之內但是根據最新的華爾街日報報導美國財政部長宣布美國首輪的談判名單包括英國 包括澳洲 日本 南韓 印度"},{"start":12723.408,"end":12745.017,"text":"但是卻沒有台灣請問主委為什麼第一波沒有台灣呢如果委員記得的話第一次公告第一波名單的時候也是美國公告的那我就我的了解我沒有參與那麼多但是我的了解4月11號台灣進行了第一次的談判那這個談判一定是後續一定是一個陸續談判那這個陸續談判呢"},{"start":12746.998,"end":12766.677,"text":"談到最後才會做成結論那這個事情是我只能講這個談判在持續進行中持續進行中持續進行中所以第一波應該是沒有我們的意思嗎第一波美國公告如果你回頭看這是美國商務部長講的第一波但是美國政府的公告第一波是有台灣的部長你要補充一下嗎為什麼第一波沒有台灣"},{"start":12772.304,"end":12800.327,"text":"我們就已經跟他諮商過了啊4月11號當天我們就跟美國來做這個諮商的這個會議嘛這裡面也談到了所以當天部長也有參與沒有沒有參與那所以411的視訊商議的性質到底是什麼兩位部長跟主委其實是不清楚的是啊 跟委員報告那一天我們大概談的是第一個對等關稅第二個是非關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":12801.348,"end":12816.4,"text":"第三個是出國管制等非常多項的這些經貿的議題所以是有具體的那有沒有一些具體的產業別呢我想這個兩邊談判就我個人的經驗來講一定會先確定命題是什麼我們到底要談什麼"},{"start":12817.617,"end":12830.493,"text":"所以到底是誰跟誰談呢先談的確定不能談的就拿掉大概是這個樣子是 這個我理解但是我們現在比較想要知道的是台灣這邊是誰然後美國這邊是誰這個不清楚吧"},{"start":12835.018,"end":12840.442,"text":"所以部長也不清楚主委也不清楚這個倒是知道是由正副院長領軍然後由談判代表辦公室楊振尼政委領軍在談判那美國那邊呢我們並沒有參與美國那邊你們也不曉得所以這點就是令本席有點擔憂就是我們談的對象到底是誰他的決策權夠大嗎能不能能夠站在"},{"start":12863.019,"end":12890.639,"text":"比較支持台灣的立場呢那包括說之前針對這個關稅談判呀那個美國的財政部長貝森特他就表示率先談判的國家會獲得更有利的對待那所以本席擔心的為什麼一直問說我們是不是在第一波這個名單裡面就是在擔心說我們會不會是在有利的這個名單裡面所以這一點才會一直想要請教主委請教部長"},{"start":12892.56,"end":12912.289,"text":"那如果假設我們當然我們有第一次談判但我們的第一次談判不代表我們在他的第一波名單裡面那如果未來我們持續談判主委跟這個部長你們有沒有預估說我們大概會在第幾波的名單當中呢這個細節我們沒有辦法預測因為我們沒有參與這裡面"},{"start":12918.985,"end":12940.28,"text":"那當然本席在這裡有建議建議就是說在面對這個關稅風波時更應該謹慎因為中央政府要帶給人民的是安心那這樣子有時候訊息反覆反而會造成民心不安想說我明明就覺得說我們有第一次談判了可是我們竟然不在第一波名單裡面"},{"start":12941.161,"end":12969.193,"text":"那這樣子會造成社會各界的不安定那我們在越艱難的時刻一定要做最壞的打算最充分的準備希望我們能夠化危機為轉機好不好這是也鼓勵主委也鼓勵部長說實在我也看到這幾週來你們都非常的辛苦不斷的跟產業在溝通不斷的在安撫產業之外也努力想要找出路那這一些努力我們其實是看在眼裡那所以只是希望說"},{"start":12970.473,"end":12991.398,"text":"我們的訊息啊我們的訊息一定要正確怎麼會我們的這個總統說我們在第一波名單裡面就公佈沒有 我跟你說這會造成很多民眾的一些錯亂跟不安心當時是美國先公告的第一波裡面在以色列跟台灣都在他的第一波裡面"},{"start":12991.638,"end":13010.708,"text":"對啊 但是他又公佈啦 他又最新的公佈裡面4月11號有的第一次的談判 那我們希望我們可以再不要說一定要第一波啦 就算是第二波也沒關係我們可以在前面幾波 趕快安定下來這是我們不只是本席 我相信包括你們以目前來看我們應該會是嘛 因為他"},{"start":13012.382,"end":13039.045,"text":"很多在底層的談判技術型談判裡面大家應該也許我們還有一點要釐清的吧我再猜啦但是技術型談判結束之後才會回到往上走做決策是我們都希望有一個最好的結果好那我是先謝謝主委然後我接下來想要請教部長在這一次的關稅議題上部長覺得什麼是現在台灣最需要去跟美國談的重點項目呢"},{"start":13041.038,"end":13067.831,"text":"我們最需要的重點項目就是說我們這一次跟美國所談判的關稅能夠為我們國內的廠商能夠爭取到一個很公平但是具有競爭力的這樣的一個線上面然後幫助台灣的這個產業是具有在市場在市場上面的有沒有幾個特別的產業是產業別是你覺得要再重點加強的呢"},{"start":13068.949,"end":13085.448,"text":"我想他對我們高關稅的部分就是他本來所設計的這個關稅的部分比較高的部分對我們我們認為跟其他的競爭國來比較我們是比較高的那幾個領域都是我們的重點那幾個領域會是哪幾個領域呢"},{"start":13086.28,"end":13104.708,"text":"目前經濟部有掌握嗎不是我想我們在幾個領域就是說譬如說很多的這個國人擔心我們可能比日本高比韓國高然後比這個有的競爭國高那各個產業的狀況不一樣那本席今天想要跟部長談的就是能源這個項目部長認為我們跟美國能夠救能源這個項目"},{"start":13111.944,"end":13118.395,"text":"變成是我們談判的一個籌碼嗎?能源、科技都是我們談判的重點"},{"start":13119.605,"end":13146.941,"text":"那本席也想要提醒部長就是說核能因為美國在台協會AIT的處長古麗妍她在川普對等關稅尚未宣布之前在上個月的20號在美國的商會的謝年范致辭她就直言說美國可以為台灣提供全方位的這個能源解決方案其中包括核能電網技術"},{"start":13148.502,"end":13163.607,"text":"那他這一番話也可以是台美經貿合作的另外一個藍圖那美國的核能技術成熟那美國總統川普本身也是核能的擁護者那相信美國應該會支持這樣子的一個"},{"start":13165.647,"end":13194.767,"text":"貿易那所以本席想要請教部長如果從美國進口核能競速還有反應器的模組燃料棒等等是否可以作為平衡貿易順差的一個策略工具之一呢我們核能的部分對先進科技的核能我們是不反對的我們都可以來積極的討論那我們還是三個原則啦就是說大家有共識核廢料可以處理然後安全無力"},{"start":13195.347,"end":13220.391,"text":"那在這個三個前提之下我們對新的核能科技是不反對的所以本席要提醒部長既然您不反對是不是能夠真正考量核能作為一種能源戰略合作讓台灣跟美國談判有優勢我們不要只是把它看成一個可能性如果可以把它當作是一個政策工具讓它具體的落實那我相信這絕對會是我們關稅談判的一個很好的籌碼是"},{"start":13224.712,"end":13239.856,"text":"謝謝委員的提示這一部分的話我們還是維持剛剛跟您報告的三個基本原則如果符合這三個基本原則那所有新的核能科技我們都不反對因為台灣現在真的很需要一張有價值的籌碼那既能達成減碳目標又可以強化對美關係"},{"start":13246.178,"end":13256.648,"text":"那既能保證這個能源穩定又能夠化解關稅壓力這不就是我們可以主動創造優勢的好機會嗎好不好謝謝部長我們一起加油謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們現在請賴世寶委員做詢答"},{"start":13272.981,"end":13284.14,"text":"好 主席各位先進我們請這個經濟部的郭部長郭部長以及經濟部的柳主委一起好嗎好 柳主委"},{"start":13287.608,"end":13313.906,"text":"委員好兩位長官好我請教啦因為我也是同一個問題今天很多人都疑問了就我們到底是第一輪還是第幾輪因為美國商務部公布的第一輪沒有台灣就日本 韓國 印度那英國 澳國英國 澳大利亞已經早就談過了我們沒有那但是我們的總統府那裡又發布說有澳第一輪談了所以我的解讀啦"},{"start":13317.228,"end":13338.777,"text":"我的解讀當然各位兩位都沒有參加但是這個對我們也很重要你們是經貿的長官大長官這個我的解讀411我仔細看了好幾份的一個報導它就是說雙方面就關稅以及非關稅貿易的障礙做了一些溝通"},{"start":13340.165,"end":13362.153,"text":"我感覺啊 我請教各位 我這樣解讀對不對411那個會議是一種類似我們法院的裡面的準備庭他不是實時進入那個辯論庭啊真的再去談 他是一個準備庭就開始問你名字啊 問你們現象啊 問你幾個項目要談啊什麼之類的 我這樣解讀對不對 請教兩位長官"},{"start":13368.177,"end":13379.669,"text":"我想委員是這方面的專家但是我分享一下因為我太太以前也在WTO談判做了十幾年就我的認知是通常我們會做技術型的談判針對要談的條件由技術官員先做USDR先做一個技術談判然後最後才會往上走"},{"start":13387.217,"end":13403.967,"text":"那這個過程就要看雙方在技術談判上的爭議點多不多爭議點越少的一定會先越早上去所以是準備點的概念嘛對 這個要郭部長同意吧是準備點的概念但是如果我們因為要維護台灣的經濟因為大家關心的當然這個過程啦大家關心的是說我們不能談一個好的 deal現在是10%到32%之間嘛"},{"start":13412.631,"end":13422.597,"text":"是不是事實上原來現在是為止10%大家好高興喔股市漲啊什麼之類的其實不要忘了我們到美國原來是3%錯了請指正原來3%這個要顧不準對吧原來是3%看產業表"},{"start":13429.622,"end":13457.999,"text":"要看哪一些產業AverageAverageAverage美國它本來是3.1%對就3%左右對Average是3%但是現在一概的都是10%它已經給很大的favor給很大的message所以是10%到12%我特別請教郭部長你心目中有沒有一個說我們如果談到多少我對國人就很有交代"},{"start":13460.237,"end":13472.902,"text":"當然月底月好了就10%最好但是我看這個可能性也不高我們能夠接受到哪裡加起來除以2 10加30號40號除以2 21因為我不是談判委員因為我沒有授予這樣的一個談判的目標"},{"start":13483.686,"end":13502.226,"text":"那如果就大家一樣的國人的想法當然是維持原來的稅率是最好那原來稅率是3%他現在他就10%但是他現在已經調到10%對啊那這10%可能就是美國他們政府的一個目的基礎目"},{"start":13502.927,"end":13525.329,"text":"基礎稅率不可能再降了有沒有談到10%已經是100分了啦所以我們大概可以觀察現在他的第一波出來的那個五國的稅率是什麼那個大概是一個referenceOK好那現在跟那個主委請回座跟這個有關係的其實稅率最高的是最健康食品"},{"start":13527.046,"end":13555.322,"text":"我剛才過去未完問了問了老半天才知道是你們管的健康食品是你們管的不是我們不管的是這個這一部分你有沒有對於我們國內的健康食品的相關產業有沒有衝擊三十八如果變零可信性如何因為如果是對等關稅啦除非美國的關稅是零啦美國大概是零喔美國現在美國的關稅是八趴啦八趴好我們就降到八趴我們有沒有印象"},{"start":13556.24,"end":13572.491,"text":"但是他現在對我們當然是有衝擊啦對我們目前的這個這個就是看他們如何去調適啦這畢竟是國家的大事這是一個 另外有一個汽車產業17.5汽車產業17.5還有它的零組件在那邊影響的工作人員"},{"start":13580.27,"end":13607.072,"text":"我們的勞工有十幾萬人衝擊是蠻大的當然有人在批評說保護下來不好啦什麼之類 把它歸 看一下如果歸成零這個衝擊相當大我們的物性價會增加失業率會增加對社會造成一個很大的社會問題這個你的觀點怎麼樣這一部分我的建議是這樣子就是說台灣因為電子零組件很強對"},{"start":13608.613,"end":13629.114,"text":"那麼現在台灣的這個車廠都是做油車所以我們如果跟他們建議他回到因為大部分都是日本的品牌比較多所以我們建議是不是他們的電動車可以在台灣的這些電子零組件有優勢的國家裡面可以來生產電動車這是一個最快的轉換"},{"start":13630.015,"end":13641.926,"text":"我覺得既有已有的員工那麼也有生產線那麼也有市場這個是我們的一個建議我回到比較笨的問題了那你期待17.5可以降到多少你覺得可以接受對產業衝擊沒那麼大我們有跑過模型了我們有跑過經濟模型大概我們大概可以7年"},{"start":13657.15,"end":13684.663,"text":"七年就是說在七年內如果說我們可以安排他們轉型大概不會產生衝擊所以七年安排轉型但是稅率就零開始囉就是最worst case是零的話最worst case就是從只要台美1000元就從零開始那七年以後他們可以適應就七年以後才會佔負責所以七年你要有一個輔導方案出來"},{"start":13685.143,"end":13705.344,"text":"我們當然會我們的輔導方案會出來嘛但我的意思就是說當我們這是基本假設啦不會這個樣子當17.5的稅萬一是零被要求是零的時候那麼對這個產業的衝擊會造成實質的影響我們跑過模型大概要七年才會產生其實你們可以去跟美國argue"},{"start":13707.086,"end":13729.247,"text":"這個時候跟他討論一下所以我們意思就是說我們做最快的這個打算我們也跟原廠跟台灣的這些廠商其實我們都瞭解了台灣的市場美國車即便你變零美國車也不是賣得最好的台灣人喜歡歐洲車啊日本車啊大部分來進來都還是日本車啦日本車對啊在美國的日本車啦在美國的日本車"},{"start":13730.589,"end":13755.826,"text":"所以這個基本上大家都買進口車啊因為沒有稅了以後大家沒有買進口車所以本土的車廠他們確實會造到一些這個其實從對等關稅的角度台灣的車去美國的很少都是沙灘車啦沙灘車台灣去了整車非常少但是我們的up market是很棒的是up market是很棒的是的那個半導體他說要課稅現在還沒出來你認為他可能課多少"},{"start":13758.146,"end":13777.88,"text":"這個還要看因為美國現在在做這個國安調查那我再看他的國安調查之後他們才會做一個確定所以我們現在很密切注意這樣的一個命題目前多少目前的話這個半導體的這個稅是0領先繼續領吧是是謝謝委員謝謝我們現在請黃國昌委員做詢答"},{"start":13799.285,"end":13809.413,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請國發會主委 經濟部部長郭主委呃 郭部長 劉主委呃 委員好"},{"start":13812.65,"end":13834.218,"text":"兩位好,先請教主委,之前我揭發盧欣娜的弊案,持續在追蹤當初花了納稅人15億,說要去併購中國的酒地,搞了半天是被人家反向併購把台灣納稅人跟資本市場的錢拿去中國胡搞瞎搞結果這件事情已經起訴了,一審其實也判出來了"},{"start":13835.236,"end":13856.611,"text":"但我一直追查我發現很奇怪當初跟陳世修勾結的一個中國人叫做孫陽我一開始揭發弊案就點名他了啦他媽媽是中共的高幹那很奇怪啊這個被台灣通緝的人結果呢結果實際上面還在我們國發基金投資的盧新當董事"},{"start":13857.799,"end":13884.885,"text":"中國那邊實際上面營運他還是實際的負責人這件事情國發會應該有掌握了吧我上次有提醒過你這個我們有掌握了我們做了三件事情是第一個我們去函這個上市委公司的主管單位金管會請求他們表示意見第二個我們也找了律師然後呢我們也發函給蘆星公司要求撤換孫楊第三個部分我們預防將來撤換有問題我們也進行試骨"},{"start":13887.846,"end":13904.816,"text":"上一次啦,我當面跟主委提醒這件事啦我提醒完了以後你們馬上就採取了動作,這件事情我是肯定啦但是我要跟主委講的事情喔,是說我們的國發基金啊,派去爐心的董事啊,是在睡覺嗎?是在睡覺嗎?這個事情要我講,你們才會發現,才會動"},{"start":13913.277,"end":13929.422,"text":"一個被台灣的法院通緝的中國通緝犯在我們國發基金投資的公司裡面繼續在中國那邊的營運當負責人妥當嗎?適合嗎?台灣人的錢已經被騙得這麼慘了抓不到這個中國人還繼續讓他負責中國那邊的業務錢太多"},{"start":13938.305,"end":13964.651,"text":"委員這個我們會去了解我們的董事有沒有清楚如果有的話我們會進行董事的更換一個禮拜之內回覆可以嗎沒有問題好謝謝第二個另外一個號稱我們國家投資了30億綠能國家隊不是只有國發基金藥花玻璃也有是希望能夠發展我們太陽能自主的產業"},{"start":13966.431,"end":13980.107,"text":"那當然投資的績效不好這個我們另外再討論啦投資前已經虧損上百億啊投資後繼續虧損上百億啊當初投資決策怎麼做的這個不是我今天要討論的重點"},{"start":13981.653,"end":14006.172,"text":"我今天要討論的重點是什麼當初我們扶植這個太陽能國家隊就是希望這些太陽能相關的產品電池能夠在台灣好好生產嘛那要不然怎麼叫太陽能國家隊當初成立了以後這個聯合再生的董事長還在媒體上面大聲疾呼啊說第三地的模組啊傾銷台灣啊將成為國安的隱憂啊"},{"start":14009.38,"end":14028.522,"text":"大陸的太陽能模組透過東南亞製造稀產地大量傾銷台灣啊這個會影響到台灣的什麼 國安隱憂啊這個是在2023年的時候啊他在媒體上面啊 大聲疾呼的內容啊他這樣大聲疾呼啊來請教一下國發會的主委 贊不贊成"},{"start":14031.426,"end":14052.257,"text":"我當時我還沒有進入政府但是我們當時如果從扶植台灣太陽能產業的角度來看我是贊成這樣的做法沒錯但是現在就是說計劃與支持之間的差異我們如何去彌補但是我今天要注意我們是善意投資人不是經營之神等一下"},{"start":14054.938,"end":14078.023,"text":"我今天要跟主委講的事情 不是前面那一趴啦 虧損的部分 那個我說另外再討論啦我先就這件事情來講 現在我看不懂為什麼對外面說的是一套 做的是另外一套 來看下一張我台灣的綠能國家隊 拿台灣人的錢去投資 講紓困可能太沉重"},{"start":14079.298,"end":14097.208,"text":"他要賣太陽能的電池要賣到土耳其結果竟然是從中國的上海出貨這件事情很奇怪啊是台灣人的太陽能電池先運到中國的上海然後再去土耳其還是直接就在賣中國的電池主委你認為咧"},{"start":14098.963,"end":14122.582,"text":"委員我跟你報告我不是檢調單位我又不是監理單位我只是投資單位但是我們沒有能力去做檢調的工作但是但是如果您有證據給我我跟上次的承諾一樣我一定去告發我一定去告發我希望你把證據給我這樣違法我一定做我們一件一件來啦現在我要告訴主委的事情是說第一個我們的台灣啊"},{"start":14127.52,"end":14155.114,"text":"太陽能的國家隊賣到外面的產品結果是在幫誰賣貨在幫中國賣貨這我沒有辦法接受這我沒有辦法接受這個是第一件事情我可以同意你的看法但是委員也請注意喔我之前就已經回應了我們已經在進行事故這是我們目前最好的解決方案但是如果有違法的證據沒有啦我先跟你溝通一件事情啦"},{"start":14155.794,"end":14176.955,"text":"不要每一次都拿不同層次的事情來處理啦第一個我今天要跟你表達的態度非常的清楚我看你今天的回應你顯然是不知道沒有關係我會站在這邊質詢就是公開提供檢舉資訊給你第二個我很謝謝你提供資訊給我第二個我現在要跟主委講的是"},{"start":14178.036,"end":14204.484,"text":"這也不是什麼秘密啊這已經是公開資訊了這已經是公開資訊了但我懷疑的事情是什麼我懷疑的事情是說我們台灣的太陽能國家隊怎麼會在做這種事情下面還有其他的公開資訊我再給主委看JA說了是哪一個國家的太陽能模組時間的關係我直接跟主委報告JA說了"},{"start":14207.082,"end":14235.783,"text":"是中國的太陽能是中國的太陽能模組這個在經濟部上面全部都有登記那我現在就搞不清楚狀況我們的太陽能國家隊結果成立國家隊 號稱國家隊那個是上引號下引號那個台灣之光 台灣的驕傲結果我們的太陽能國家隊在做的事情是什麼淪為中國太陽能的模組代理商主委你贊成嗎"},{"start":14237.962,"end":14253.965,"text":"我們當時投資那個聯合再生的時候是希望再創台灣的太陽能產業當時的目的這是我們投資目的那這個結果不是我們樂見的不是你們樂見的嗎我們會去理解如果它違法我們一定會處理"},{"start":14255.843,"end":14266.687,"text":"現在喔有兩個層次啊一個是主委說剛所講的違法的層次嘛所以我就一直在問嘛我希望國發基金等一下等一下主委請你先聽我說完好兩個層次的問題主委我只是"},{"start":14275.443,"end":14296.752,"text":"我跟你就是溝通到現在我基本上是蠻尊敬你的對我也是因為我覺得你有擔當所以我是很善意的把這些資訊跟你講是我提醒兩件事情第一個你們那個國發基金派去聯合再生的董事提醒他一下這不是什麼秘密的事情"},{"start":14297.956,"end":14324.792,"text":"這全部都是公開資訊委員 正常的董事會不會討論到這麼細節的事情呢欸等一下喔但是我們國發基金派去聯合再生的董事他肩負的責任是什麼他肩負的責任董事裡面我們國家派去的董事這一點都不細欸這已經牽涉到你剛剛所講的欸沒有委員我從企業出來的這是不是有維持到國家政策的問題欸我從企業出來的喔董事會會依據董事會議程來討論跟開會"},{"start":14327.588,"end":14354.057,"text":"他不會去了解到每一個訂單的細節我再跟主委講這個不是訂單的細節這個是公開的資訊今天主委你願意請董事下去這本來就是應該他做的事情但是派去的董事就要有功能他如果能夠發揮功能的話就可以站在國家的立場不要讓這種丟人現眼的事情發生"},{"start":14355.902,"end":14378.327,"text":"怎麼會是我今天站在這邊質詢這件事情呢我很謝謝 我很佩服委員有這麼多的資訊管道我也謝謝你提供這些資訊給我我們一定會來做進行必要的處理時間的關係 我不影響下一個委員質詢的時間我只提醒一件事情 我只提醒一件事情"},{"start":14379.281,"end":14394.774,"text":"我們現在在面對的事情大家對習產地這件事情深惡痛絕的時候結果裡面竟然有我們自己國發基金投資的公司深陷其中這件事情對台灣的國際信譽會造成相當大的打擊"},{"start":14395.655,"end":14423.577,"text":"我希望國發會能夠非常嚴肅的面對這個課題可以嗎我們非常的嚴肅我們也依據上市委員的交代我們已經發文給所有的投資公司目前已經也收回了四十幾份資料我們已經跟您做一個報告我們會持續要求把這些這些廠商提出他們的切結書OK這是我們Best Can Do最後一件事聯合再生在做這件事情為什麼做這件事情一個禮拜之內給我回覆可以嗎"},{"start":14424.905,"end":14430.87,"text":"我們會去發文了解請他解釋OK好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答你好我們請部長郭部長"},{"start":14456.431,"end":14481.756,"text":"部長好部長依據經濟部的調查從2018年美中貿易戰開始到現在哪一個產業因為每一個產業的影響都是有受到一些差異那台灣的各產業裡面哪一個部分受到最嚴重的負面影響哪一些產業會受到反而會因為轉單有一些效益大概具體上面來跟我們分享一下好嗎"},{"start":14482.506,"end":14487.47,"text":"我想因為這個訊息萬變哪一個產業會受到影響我們根據目前的這個狀況看起來傳產傳統產業受到這個比較大的這個衝擊"},{"start":14498.257,"end":14519.622,"text":"所以我們目前來看在傳產裡面大概機械業、鎖工具業、扣件這些傳產傳產受到比較大的影響那其實在我們嘉義縣主要雖然說現在開始有一些半導體的業者進入包含台積電的投資等等但是傳統產業還是工業區裡面的主力所以我們對於傳統產業的支持我們是非常重視的"},{"start":14525.603,"end":14554.398,"text":"上次質詢的時候我也請教說這個在我們經濟部總共這次整合跨部會的資源總共是880億的20項的支持措施但是經濟部主要是負責410億那410億裡面提供的包含金融支持提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場等等那上次我們質詢的時候我們是在講說因為現在的關稅的這樣子的挑戰是即時性的所以我們希望說在優先順序我們不希望緩不濟急那"},{"start":14554.958,"end":14569.756,"text":"在這樣的窗框之下上一次我們有提到說包含你說補助研發轉型你們是加碼200億元那爭取海外電力是加碼100億元那是上一次提供的報告可是我們看這一次的話好像還是依照這樣子的"},{"start":14570.697,"end":14590.347,"text":"排序那這樣子有沒有辦法對於我們現在直接面的挑戰做出有效的因應呢因為我看這個價格這些都比較遠程的啊200億也好100億也好輔助研發轉型等等這些都是我們要講未來的長期規劃但是現在我們要遇到的是包含你們提出來的我覺得不錯的是貸款優惠的保證加碼"},{"start":14591.187,"end":14607.973,"text":"跟這個中小企業的微型貸款加碼這是現在可以立即去面對的問題我想請教一下這樣的排序這樣子的順序是不是能夠有機會來調整包含今天的報告也是支持出口供應鏈裡面你們還是把協助企業海外佈局還有一些相關的還是排在比較前面"},{"start":14608.979,"end":14625.848,"text":"是的我想我們現在目前因應的方式是根據在這個32%關稅的情況之下然後所做出來的一個模擬那現在因為又造成這個延緩"},{"start":14627.949,"end":14653.719,"text":"這個關稅調整為10%那延緩90天嘛那這根據這樣一個情境來講我們認為在這樣的一個措施之下應該是可以解決目前的這個問題但是如果這些金額不足的話我們會啟動再做第二次的這些準備部長我剛才的意思不是說規模而已我是講說裡面細部的項目的優先順序"},{"start":14654.939,"end":14679.744,"text":"項目的優先順序第一個是紓困第一個就是說假如這個業者有這個貸款要展延我們雨天不收傘所以這個是列為第一優先第二個他有需要再借錢我們放寬這個條件部長雖然說是第一優先可是在這一個總共410億的這個分配上面他們似乎他們的規模"},{"start":14681.364,"end":14707.844,"text":"並不是最大的我想請教說這樣子的安排你覺得要不要做一些調整就你在企業界也待過你覺得現在此時此刻如果要及時因應的話因為我們剛才提到說現在是呃有10%的基準關稅但是我們不知道他說什麼是戰亡豁免因為他前幾天又說這些又沒有戰亡豁免他不是豁免而是要另外再去做特別的處役處役的話那個是指半導體的那還有"},{"start":14709.285,"end":14727.162,"text":"報告委員我想我們這一些措施都是動態的也就是說我們現在還是持續的在跟業者溝通那目前看起來我們到現在包括我們的call center包括我們的馬上辦中心我們現在所接的案子來看"},{"start":14728.504,"end":14751.884,"text":"事實上並沒有那麼危急並沒有那麼危急這個是一個事實的報告那如果這個金額已經接近我們的這個預定的一半的話當然我們會啟動新的這樣的一個來紓緩或者是紓困的一個措施好 謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":14755.653,"end":14781.383,"text":"我們現在請賴慧媛委員做詢答賴慧媛委員不在我們現在請王洪威委員做詢答好謝謝主席我請我們劉主委還有我們的郭部長"},{"start":14787.267,"end":14789.448,"text":"委員好好 主委好 部長好委員好"},{"start":14817.407,"end":14832.932,"text":"因为在今年初就传出来除了台积电除了联电我们有七大代工厂我们有七大代工厂包含鸿海广达伟创维影一叶达仁宝和朔"},{"start":14833.672,"end":14848.451,"text":"他們將在將在這個可能是五月份或者是最近他們會到美國去做訪問而且提出七大代工廠可能在川普"},{"start":14849.131,"end":14861.542,"text":"就只百日的時間左右的時間會宣布新的重大投資那其中是有關於德州竹科會不會造成整個產業外移的狀況"},{"start":14864.484,"end":14866.665,"text":"所以我想請問部長跟諸位第一個你們有沒有掌握到我們七大代工廠什麼時候會去出發到美國還有預計他們會不會宣布新的投資案我先請部長講好了"},{"start":14882.229,"end":14907.392,"text":"报告委员我想最近这几天这个新闻上面也有披露这个NVIDIA即将投资在美国就邀请这几家厂商5000亿美元的AI投资包括Apple也曾经宣告5000亿美元的投资这些因为我们跟美国的这个科技的互补"},{"start":14908.325,"end":14937.78,"text":"非常的緊密包括很多的產品幾乎過去整個供應鏈都是由台灣來做所以不管是做EMS所以不管是輝達的五千億Apple的五千億這裡面都包含台灣的資金台灣的廠商是嗎這個台灣的資金非常的小因為我們只做EMS所以我們去那邊只做代工替他生產而已所以那個投資金額相對五千億是很小的金額"},{"start":14938.573,"end":14956.946,"text":"我想請問一下,我們的七大代工廠,我們這幾個月四月或五月,他們要一起出發到美國嗎?有掌握嗎?我們對廠商的活動都有一些聯繫。新聞都有了,不可能你們沒有掌握,你們總要去問一下吧。"},{"start":14957.446,"end":14981.73,"text":"我們是有掌握有掌握所以他們確實會去那我想請問一下那麼在這個川普就職百日的時候除了剛才講的不管是輝達的投資或者是Apple的投資就主要是我們台灣的廠商會不會在5月10號附近然後我們有新的投資案的宣布"},{"start":14982.67,"end":15010.78,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們銷美國的AI Server67%是從墨西哥過去從墨西哥過去佔了67%在這一波我們其實有找廠商談過如果台灣的關稅比較高的時候他們會Leverage墨西哥來做生產因為台灣出去美國的部分是比較少的那就我的了解有些廠商現在是有計畫從墨西哥移過去"},{"start":15011.701,"end":15028.043,"text":"從墨西哥移過去是有部分廠商是有跟我提到所以不是從台灣移過去是把原來在墨西哥的廠因為我們在墨西哥廠確實很多要從墨西哥移過去所以我的意思說所以在5月10號附近會有新的投資案的宣布"},{"start":15029.82,"end":15052.9,"text":"会不会有新的投资案的宣布会有厂商来做决定政府不会去帮他们做任何的宣布好因为我时间的关系但是目前并没有这里面的每一家但是会有蛮多家都已经有了原来也有一些在德州就有工厂的这个会它会扩大既有的工厂"},{"start":15054.302,"end":15079.831,"text":"所以這就是其實所謂的德州足科還是應該要去關切因為時間關係我想請教那個部長因為我們的總統府副秘書長張宗涵他在前不久跑去參加一個政論節目他說在立法院裡面我們立法院刪除了中小企業的新創企業科技運用的預算請問有刪除嗎部長"},{"start":15086.857,"end":15096.064,"text":"沒有沒有請問一下中小企業新創企業科技發展的預算34億878萬7千元有刪除嗎報告沒有沒有請問經濟部特別收入基金01撥補中小企業發展基金21億有刪除嗎只有凍結有凍結"},{"start":15111.001,"end":15123.918,"text":"有冻结吗没有没有冻结没有删除好来中小企业新创企业科技发展02强化资金规划运用能力奖补助费32亿5350万请问有删除吗"},{"start":15127.762,"end":15135.468,"text":"沒有都沒有好所以呢謝謝部長的回答因為經濟部的預算經濟部最清楚雖然幕僚來告訴你所以我在這邊邀請部長好跟不管是院的高層或府的高層預算的情形我想各部會最清楚那麼我們預算在3月21號已經經過總統府公告所以事實俱在但是身為總統府副秘書長"},{"start":15157.345,"end":15161.289,"text":"竟然在已經預算公告之後公然造謠然後造成社會的一個恐懼或動盪因為很多中小企業如果相信張春寒所說的話他可能以為他的相關的補助的預算被刪除了"},{"start":15175.023,"end":15177.305,"text":"可是部長在這邊非常謝謝部長把它做澄清了那這個部分我想經濟部都會確實來執行所以在這裡請部長去跟行政院尤其跟總統府反映如果他們對預算有些什麼疑慮有些什麼問題請他們直接問經濟部請他們直接問"},{"start":15197.765,"end":15210.654,"text":"部長 而不是應該在那邊隨便的跑到政論節目拿不實的消息來造謠 好嗎 可以嗎報告委員 他只是講說剛開始有但是他也了解沒有刪"},{"start":15211.636,"end":15220.318,"text":"他了解沒有刪除 還在那邊說 把那個曾經程序然後做一些說法 這不叫造謠嗎?我要講的是 我們現在這麼多中小企業這麼擔心有關於美國對等關稅的衝擊 其實大家已經非常驚嚇了"},{"start":15233.982,"end":15254.727,"text":"我們的政府官員尤其政府的高官不應該隨便的去嚇唬老百姓嚇唬中小企業正確的資訊請我們政府應該要帶頭提供而不是帶頭去混淆資訊然後製造不實的訊息好不好那麼謝謝謝謝部長跟謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們現在請廖先祥委員做詢答"},{"start":15271.974,"end":15296.972,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩邀請我們郭部長郭部長委員好部長好這個談到貿易嘛就是做生意嘛一般來說企業或者是商家做生意是為了什麼商家做生意是為了什麼"},{"start":15299.228,"end":15301.778,"text":"商家做生意我開一家公司是為了什麼"},{"start":15303.227,"end":15330.246,"text":"每一家目的不會一樣吧應該是賺錢吧應該是一個普世的大家應該有一個共同的社會的認知我開一家公司就是賺錢社會企業就不一定他可能還會有一些這個社會的價值那什麼ESG或是什麼的那是附加的社會的責任那普遍大家開公司就是為了賺錢不是做功德那既然是為了賺錢那就是可能國際上貿易就是有順差那"},{"start":15332.862,"end":15342.067,"text":"順差了之後我做生意成功了我賺了很多錢那你因為可能你的生意做的沒有那麼好你賺的比較少或者是在國際貿易上面有了逆差那你要透過其他的手段來要求來說減這個貿易的順差逆差我想這可能是國際社會上面對於川普的一個政策許多的一個批評的一個地方那也因為這個對等關稅他們希望縮減了"},{"start":15360.377,"end":15383.408,"text":"順差跟貿易這個順差他們希望有更多的一些我們可能會有一些希望他會希望有更多的對美的一個投資那其中有一個項目然後其中有一個項目是這個美國AIT的時候有在提的就是一些核電的技術那剛剛部長在詢問的時候有說新的技術新的技術我們不會排斥然後就看新的技術到怎樣"},{"start":15383.968,"end":15413.218,"text":"那原來這樣核融核的技術目前國際上的新聞可能2030年最快商轉那可能這個都小規模到真的大規模的營運可能還是還要很久一個未知的時間那短期內可能還是一個還是會以核分裂的方式來做討論的一個標的啦那既然是傳統的核電廠那就有一個核廢料的問題那部長我的選區就是在萬里那萬里就是有一個核二廠那他就是有一個核廢料處理這個問題那包括台電目前在做"},{"start":15414.239,"end":15425.077,"text":"這個室外乾除已經發包了那室內乾除也準備要做了啦那無論如何我們目前對外的說法萬裡不是最終的處置場目前我們對外的說法是這樣子嘛對不對"},{"start":15427.199,"end":15449.289,"text":"我們這個儲置場要看這個科技的方式嘛最起碼我從這個原來的這個槽裡面要把這些這個用過的核廢料做一些乾式的儲藏對 目前大概就是一個中期的儲置嘛我們並沒有對外宣稱最終的儲置場在萬里但是實際上我們的國家並沒有找到最終的儲置場"},{"start":15450.069,"end":15467.793,"text":"目前的進度是還沒有找到嘛普遍上社會也會預期找到最終處置場是非常的困難是非常困難的事情這是一個科幻的事實所以說中期的一個處置到底會在萬里百多久它是一個未定數那許多人認為很多地方的鄉親會認為可能在"},{"start":15470.37,"end":15495.216,"text":"他的有生之年他的有生之年這些包括室外的乾除或是室內的乾除大家都不會離開萬里在他的有生之年可能我現在60歲了有些長輩60歲了你說50年後目標50年後要離開萬里對我來說他是沒有意義的對他來說就是終身都放在他的家鄉是在萬里所以說萬里的有些好朋友希望說討論"},{"start":15498.411,"end":15526.818,"text":"我們萬里既然我們國家沒有找到一個最終的處置場那我們現在是不是能夠務實的來討論我們的萬里它就是最終處置場的一個形態很多的民眾會是這樣討論因為中期跟最終處置它在回饋金上面有一定的差別在法定上面也有一定的差別那既然在我們的有生之年對我來說"},{"start":15528.358,"end":15542.336,"text":"對每個人來說不一樣或許是剛出生的民眾來說未來他可能在未來五六十年的時間有可能離開萬里但是對一個五六十歲的民眾來講的話你五六十年後離開萬里對他是沒有意義的你的中期跟最終處置場是沒有意義的"},{"start":15544.238,"end":15563.044,"text":"那我們萬里有部分的民眾希望經濟部能夠務實地來討論有沒有辦法用最終處置場的一個法令或者是回饋的辦法來務實地告訴大家短期內沒有辦法離開那我們就用最終處置場的一個法令跟回饋的辦法來回饋萬里的鄉親不曉得部長認為這是不是有討論的機會"},{"start":15567.214,"end":15594.681,"text":"這個我想我們來參考其他的這個國家的處理模式啦是我們也沒有什麼獨特的經驗嘛是然後我們就看其他的國家它處理模式怎麼樣來作為一個參考的辦法就是說我們當然是說現在萬里它就是一個戶外乾除跟室內乾除的一個中期處置但是當我們還沒有找到最終處置長之前我們不曉得它會在萬里擺多久"},{"start":15595.806,"end":15601.617,"text":"很多人認為就是離不開萬里啦實務上很多人認為就是揮子在萬里那既然是在這樣的情況下"},{"start":15602.759,"end":15631.46,"text":"我們的回饋辦法就不能夠用中期的處置嘛因為你是對他們來說他是永遠的地方在那邊我想這個都是有法律的認定啦是那我們還是依法去作業啦那也會參考國外的一些科技的進步啦我想這個科技進步日新月異嘛那這個最終處置廠會在哪個地方我想美國他們也或者是世界科技的國家也都有一些這個paper出來嘛"},{"start":15631.92,"end":15638.263,"text":"那我們會參考最新的科技的處置方式作為我們這個最後決策之用"},{"start":15638.715,"end":15667.361,"text":"好我想今天時間也不多我希望未來還有機會能夠跟部長討論在核廢料的處置上面如果我們國家沒有辦法很明確的告知我們萬里在地的民眾我們的最終處置場會在哪邊找到會在多久時間之內找到多久會移開萬里那我們就必須要討論一下我們必須可能要雖然說我們現在是中期的處置但是我們的可能的適用的法令在你沒有提出辦法或者說部長你講的新技術還沒有提出來之前大家認為會一直留在萬里這樣的情況下我們適用的回饋了一個"},{"start":15668.201,"end":15690.573,"text":"補助辦法就希望能夠用最終處置場的一個違規的補助方式來跟我們經濟部的討論希望未來有更多的機會你也可以不一定我是一個民營代表或是說你們也可以請我們台電或合二廠的一個相關的部門未來在跟鄉親在做討論的時候你們也可以收集一下相關的意見我傳遞的是不是鄉親的意見希望基金部能夠重視這件事情以上謝謝"},{"start":15693.183,"end":15710.971,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請黃建廷委員做詢答 黃建豪好 謝謝主席 主席我們請經濟部郭部長 郭部長"},{"start":15721.644,"end":15744.265,"text":"委員好部長好部長辛苦了部長今天的這個報告裡面你們也提到說針對這個貿易政策這個關稅政策台灣的這個機械工具機手工具這些產業的成本增加影響獲利所以對這些產業的衝擊會比較明顯我想以台中為例台中今天市長也特別講說這個台中一些這個傳統產業是重災區希望你不能特別多幫忙"},{"start":15745.026,"end":15770.308,"text":"那台中也盤點了幾項六大產業包含說手工具、工具機、自行車、光電面板新屬製品和航太那這些就業人口就業的這個狀況我想可以看到數據上來講的話確實在這六大產業裡面中部或台中整個中部地區來講它的影響面它的占比是非常非常高的而它的就業人口也高達這個24萬左右24萬多左右這個數據我想是各單位統一出來的數據那對這樣的衝擊"},{"start":15772.79,"end":15797.769,"text":"我不知道經濟部因為剛好你們這禮拜一也有來台中來跟這個產業界來座談那我不知道你聽完部長聽完產業界的反應之後目前的對策我們先不管談判結果怎麼樣我們針對這段時間因為你們還在談判過程嘛有90天的緩衝期那至少在這段時間裡面對於內需或對於裡面內部我們怎麼去穩定這些產業的做法我想問一下經濟部有什麼樣的想法談完之後我們"},{"start":15801.189,"end":15827.48,"text":"到台中都不止一次啦我陪總統就去一次上週五去一次吧總統去一次在總統之前我們這個產業發展署中小企業署都跟業者多方面的去談過那這個談完了以後我們當然在這個有一些措施推出來但是看起來我們之前推的"},{"start":15828.393,"end":15852.363,"text":"本來要公告的因為跟這個座談以後發現有一些微調的不一樣所以我們一直在修正像這個工具區、手工區這一些廠商來講他們現在這個並不是說缺單或者是缺工並不是這樣但是反而是大家急著要把他的這個單子提高"},{"start":15853.942,"end":15874.293,"text":"接下來找的是說船旗可能找不到船要我們政府協助他安排這個船旗可以快速的讓他送到美國去我想這些等等因為這個需求有做很大的改變但是對經濟部來講服務廠商這個就是唯一的任務所以我們會動態的調整我們的工作來 部長"},{"start":15879.676,"end":15891.024,"text":"其實座談的過程我不確定這個消息有沒有正確傳達就是說這一次當然經濟部也好或行政也好整體的這個方案很多是在拯救或是補助"},{"start":15892.951,"end":15913.243,"text":"對美直接有對美關係的貿易額的這些廠商但是其實包含說這兩天我想這個報紙中央社有一個報導是指這個像我們在法國在歐洲的這個世界台商總會長蔡國泰他也提到其實像台中很多這些機械產業它的主要出口國確實不是美國但它很多出口"},{"start":15913.883,"end":15936.892,"text":"到歐洲去或到其他國家去它的終端消費市場它依舊是在美國所以這些終端消費市場在美國的國家它的確不是直接出口到美國去的它的占比沒那麼高沒錯但它最後的送到國外去組裝然後再賣美國的這批廠商其實也受到影響那我要問的是說這批廠商有沒有在你們的這個清單裡面還是這個東西沒有在目前的這個盤點裡面"},{"start":15938.283,"end":15959.18,"text":"如果說他需要申請補助我們基本上是從寬從減從速所以過去的一些條款譬如說他有衰退跡象我們才可以補助事實上這次都沒有都拿掉把這些條件我們都是寬裕的來認定那中小微的企業如果他是企業比較小"},{"start":15959.921,"end":15979.899,"text":"那麼如果有一些資料佐證他確實有從事這個出口的這個工作或者是說他上他交給的那個客戶本身就是蘇美的這些廠商的話那在這方面我們都認定是可以所以最終只要能夠提出最終消費市場他是在美國的話他會在這一波的那個他就拿那個訂單出來看我們就可以知道"},{"start":15980.199,"end":16006.68,"text":"另外部長還有一個問題就是說因為現在是我們現在談的都是台灣跟美國之間的關係那問題是說像我剛剛提到以歐洲為例他們跟中國大陸之間並沒有這種目前並沒有產生這種關稅之戰那很大一些廠商擔心什麼就是我們的產品現在像歐洲是沒問題的但是如果在這段期間如果假設歐洲跟中國之間中國把這個所謂不能銷美國的產品他不去賣美國他反而賣去歐洲做傾銷的話"},{"start":16007.871,"end":16029.142,"text":"對於台廠也會產生衝擊這部分的話我們今天不知道怎麼面對這個事情我們當然有把這個考慮進去啦這個外溢效用那當然一樣廠商面對的問題我們就幫他解決他如果是我們一樣嘛就是幫他這個先這個紓困有必要的紓困第二個就是在短期裡面我們幫他找新的訂單嘛"},{"start":16030.302,"end":16049.734,"text":"我們幫他找新訂單所以他們在外面的展覽啊或者是我們找國外的廠商國外的buyer來台灣買東西我剛才在那個報告上面也有講所以我們是盡量來這個協助讓他們取得新的訂單部長很高興你提到這個協助找訂單啊但我要先確認一個事情就是說"},{"start":16051.035,"end":16080.204,"text":"當台灣這些廠商往海外找訂單或拓展拓銷等等這部分是鼓勵用貸款的方式還是到時候政府會有一個專案來補助這些廠商他們出國去歐洲以後去其他第三世界的國家也好其他消費市場去做相關的這個推廣還是說是由貸款的方式來處理這個部分因為在過去第一波你們公布的方案裡面似乎是用貸款的方式但是我現在問的說經過這個一兩個週討論之後補助方案或說鼓勵這些廠商出國的方案還是用貸款的方式呢"},{"start":16080.724,"end":16108.26,"text":"還是政府會有一個專案讓大家找到對的市場我們過去是用補助的方案那很多的廠商認為說補助金額太少所以我們現在大概會改變這樣的一個方式就是說我們打台灣一個品牌那聯合出展台灣一個品牌那這樣子可以增加它的效果增加它的效果第二個廠商也不需要花那麼高的成本那我們"},{"start":16109.284,"end":16127.467,"text":"政府會完全來支持來協助他們到國外出戰好謝謝最後一個問題喔這個時間到了最後一個問題之前提到這個中小微企業你們的貸款利率是2.22那我不知道2.22其實很多應該很多民眾很多廠商在座談裡面也有點反應了2.22其實就是正常啦"},{"start":16128.32,"end":16146.785,"text":"這邊有感受到政府的誠意跟幫助啊如果真的是遇到困難的廠商你們的利率2.22%還是這個數字嗎還是有機會要往下降因為這個我們有利息補貼啦我們有利息補貼2.22%嗎還是2.2%嗎我們舉例子新青安當初這個新青安是1.6% 1.8%我們代款報告委員我們代款在250萬以內補貼1.5%大概維持6個月"},{"start":16153.12,"end":16168.85,"text":"再加上是多少?如果這樣算的話,他們廠商的貸款利率大概可以加上多少?2.2減1.5啊好,所以就是0.7啦,是不是這樣子?六個月內?是那六個月之後呢?還是要看到時候經濟狀況來決定?再看看,再看看狀況好,謝謝部長來,謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":16170.899,"end":16175.121,"text":"好謝謝現在請嚴匡衡委員做詢問"},{"start":16190.149,"end":16213.041,"text":"林楚英委员做询答林楚英委员不在现在请苏星泉委员做询答苏星泉委员不在现在请徐欣盈委员做询答徐欣盈委员徐欣盈委员不在现在请马文君委员做询答马文君委员马文君委员不在现在请欧晓琳委员做询答欧晓琳委员欧晓琳委员不在现在请叶元之委员做询答叶元之委员叶元之委员不在"},{"start":16215.128,"end":16232.658,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束委員陳超明翁曉琳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及為答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16592","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16592","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6859d3c58e6035bf089dbed544b35c5f3ca4af80a8cb003b9bacd046a44d182d8b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「面對國際經貿情勢瞬變，我國如何因應並確保藥品、醫療器材等各面向供應正常，保障國人權益。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月16日及17日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-16T08:31:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-16T13:35:00+08:00","duration":18235,"影片長度":"05:03:55","委員發言時間":"08:31:05 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那接下來我們就直接請我們衛福部的部長來作為報告"},{"start":1933.138,"end":1950.007,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天答應第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸知就面對國際經貿情勢順變或國如何應應並確保藥品、醫療器材"},{"start":1955.722,"end":1972.656,"text":"等各面向供应正常保障国人权益进行专题报告进行各位委员不吝会议指教全球经贸情势正处于快速变革之际面对全球经贸动荡恐造成药品及医疗器材供应之冲击"},{"start":1973.277,"end":1991.704,"text":"本部已建構相關應用機制措施以確保藥品及醫療器材穩定供應為確保藥品及醫材之供應穩定首先為預防及應用藥品及醫材供應不止之情形化生本部透過既有之通報處理機制"},{"start":1994.212,"end":2003.511,"text":"得及時進行短期情形評估並啟動應應措施保障民眾醫療權益第二本部已制定必要"},{"start":2004.861,"end":2029.098,"text":"必要藥品及必要醫材清單將持續滾動式調整產品清單內容強化藥商預先通報之責任及應變措施第三主動提升我國藥品及醫材供應鏈韌性鼓勵者增加原料來源及儲備以避免國內廠商應單一來源供應異常而過度集中影響供應鏈"},{"start":2031.48,"end":2059.38,"text":"並透過專業輔導及加速審查等方式協助業者儘速取得許可證強化國內自主供應韌性最後本部將持續主動監控藥品及依採國外短缺警訊及國內臨床需求預先盤點整備品及其原物料的庫存以確保供應鏈之穩定"},{"start":2061.521,"end":2077.06,"text":"為確保藥品及醫材之合理價格本部確實盤點藥品清單適時調整藥價鼓勵並支持賢明藥及生物相似性藥之使用支持新藥在地製造"},{"start":2078.081,"end":2097.334,"text":"加強我國製藥韌性確保藥品供應維持合理要價持續推動健保藥品政策改革修法以獎勵國內外藥商在國內製造國內藥廠投入資源及擴充生產量能如果一定條件則製藥品"},{"start":2098.915,"end":2118.033,"text":"價格不予調整達到鼓勵在地製造強化藥品公用韌性保障合理藥品價格等三大目的自有國公會疫苗抗病毒藥品節電試劑以儀器及防疫物質等供應及價格針對已簽訂合約之產品經評估占有立即影響"},{"start":2123.158,"end":2148.493,"text":"因應國際經貿情勢順變,本部將持續強化藥品及醫材供應鏈韌性以確保藥品及醫材之穩定供應,保障國人健康潛力本部曾答應各位委員之指教及監督,在此靜置謝陳,並期各位委員繼續予以支持,謝謝好,謝謝部長的報告"},{"start":2150.407,"end":2178.837,"text":"那接下來呃有關於本次會議各項書面資料列均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始來做詢答作為下宣告本會委員詢答時間為6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止歡迎登記委員如果順便質詢請於稍微前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上時間11點30分處理臨時提案10點半截止收件然後呃現在請登記第一位委員林月琴委員來做詢答"},{"start":2186.954,"end":2189.615,"text":"主席麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員長部長早上現在台灣我覺得我們長期處在一種地緣政治的風險當中而且現在因為我們的物質缺乏導致我們很仰賴進口的貿易"},{"start":2211.59,"end":2230.296,"text":"所以完善的藥品供應鏈的韌性跟降低我們的缺藥危機本來就事實上是台灣一直要固守的那個碉堡但這個堡壘當下受到美國關稅的政策的一個衝擊呢那所以就會引發一些問題藥品供應鏈有關我們國家安全"},{"start":2237.877,"end":2265.522,"text":"藥品當下受到我們的關稅豁免的確現在當時是現在是此時此刻這樣可是兩個月內將以我們的獨立關稅的項目來徵收關稅所以我們可以預期藥品不可能排除在國際關稅的競爭之外結果將引發藥品的價格波動所以當然目前整個也會去衝擊到我們的藥品的供應鏈所以可能會造成國產藥品的出口受阻和進口要價"},{"start":2266.909,"end":2288.157,"text":"那個可能會比較貴還有我們的藥品的供應呢也會產生新藥退出台灣市場而且國產藥事實上是會缺乏原料藥所以想問部長這是攸關我們國家藥品供應鏈的事也是整個藥醫界所關注的大事衛福部不能沒有對策你這邊要怎麼應對好謝謝委員的詢問那我想我們"},{"start":2292.406,"end":2310.458,"text":"足夠的藥品、醫材、相關的一個物品的確是對保護我們全國人民健康非常重要的事情所以這個事情是平常我們就在做的事情因為因應不時之需所以我們在藥品方面我們當然第一個會有"},{"start":2317.452,"end":2339.479,"text":"會列出一個藥品的必要清單那當然在藥事法也有規定如果在六個月當中可能會將來會切法六個月應該要在六個月前就應該要告知我們來做應應的一個前瞻性的處理那第二個當然就是如果藥品短缺有一個通報平台"},{"start":2340.419,"end":2358.29,"text":"那這個平台也能夠隨時來營營第三個當然我們有更不管是在食藥署這邊或是在健保署因為大部分的藥物都是健保署所以那個所以如果說它的成本真的有增加"},{"start":2359.35,"end":2375.496,"text":"那麼當然可以提報它的成本來申請然後我們有一個公式來做一個調整這些機制其實過去都已經進行得很順暢那目前來講並沒有對這個藥品直接的衝擊"},{"start":2379.442,"end":2390.731,"text":"當然我們覺得我們一定要非常的小心預先來準備那至於說如果可以的話是不是我們兩位署長有沒有要補充的請我們食藥署的江署長做簡要的補充一下"},{"start":2396.309,"end":2417.615,"text":"食藥署這邊做我們做檢要補充我們做了整體的盤點因為以食藥署就是藥物供給跟藥物有效性跟安全性是我們最主要的一個前提所以美國的衝擊這一次我們其實對於進口跟國內的輸入的藥大概是佔27%其中美國的部分呢其實佔1.86%我們用藥證來講總共216下"},{"start":2421.596,"end":2450.721,"text":"整體我覺得衝擊特別特別明顯的會是在所謂他在專利期內的有60張看起來是佔0.5%那其中我們特別特別要去注意的是因為美國進來的幾項我們會提早因應也跟健保署這邊做很好的溝通包含我們的血液的製劑然後抗腫瘤的藥物神經疾病的用藥那我們也有看到有少部分是罕見疾病的部分那這部分我們也充分的溝通"},{"start":2451.301,"end":2474.854,"text":"因為現在所謂的關稅的衝擊的部分就如部長剛才提到的因為還沒有明顯的變動雙方都是零關稅的對於這個藥因為健康的部分藥物的部分值得高的規格跟高的高度因此就互相是豁免了相關的關稅所以因此我們好 等一下我覺得再讓署長再做補充因為下一頁也是剛剛講的零關稅"},{"start":2476.194,"end":2493.249,"text":"所以台灣健保的那個收窄的藥品大概一萬四千多項其中從美國進口的藥品品項大概一百七十七項一年占我們健保藥費的支出大概十%左右所以台灣藥品的超過六成都是來自國外"},{"start":2493.829,"end":2520.99,"text":"所以對藥價跟供應波動非常的敏感所以這次波這一波的危機不是只有在美國可能還是上次可能是全球所以石蘇朗這邊西藥進口商他倡議就是說是不是應該要承認以獲得美國FDA或歐盟的EMA核准的處方簽以縮短我們的查驗登記的程序跟時間降低國際藥品輸入門檻"},{"start":2523.832,"end":2538.581,"text":"所以健保署對此的態度如何甚至是不是可以能夠兩方在美國那邊甚至在我們台灣是不是也都可以爭取彼此的承認先做一點點補充因為是新藥"},{"start":2542.864,"end":2568.839,"text":"精準的高高精準的藥物新藥在國際上FDA審過了是不是所謂的平行的一個承認的概念嗎那我們對於精準的一些高度的新的用藥來講對於一些疾病尖端的治療我們認為這個是有很大的空間可以去討論的因為國內目前對於藥證的審查裡面有幾種一般普通的審查那有部分其實是加速的審查"},{"start":2569.35,"end":2575.052,"text":"對 那我們現在是不是可以 因為孝敬偶像去倡議說是不是可以"},{"start":2575.854,"end":2600.163,"text":"整個查驗的那個可以縮短查驗登記的程序跟時間來降低這個部分是縮短查驗登記的時間事實上我們食藥署這邊持續在進行當中那至於我們剛才看到的是說我們假如國外FDA承認的它的藥物裡面非常多種舉例它有很多的學民的用藥它勢必如果是直接平行的話那這部分我們其實不是那麼支持"},{"start":2600.623,"end":2613.009,"text":"因為它很快速就會佔據整個台灣的學民用藥以及本土的藥業的發展的所以這個知識體大也我們要重新思考但對於新的藥物專利期的藥物假如有個機會讓"},{"start":2614.929,"end":2643.406,"text":"民眾提早可以用到這是我們持續在做加速審查也是我們持續在做的那再麻煩我們的食藥署這邊那那西藥進口商比較擔心產業受到的衝擊所以國產製藥也在4月藥商也在4月14號也提出幾項訴求了所以首先先問部長三大公協會他要求政府在健康台灣全社會訪問任性政策推動上"},{"start":2644.626,"end":2660.419,"text":"應該把社區藥局跟藥廠還有我們的醫財廠整個產業界的都能夠在你們開會裡邊納入他們一起來做討論那在這邊你可不可以給出具體的承諾"},{"start":2661.693,"end":2686.272,"text":"如果在全社會防疫任性裡面我們很清楚委員裡面就是有藥界的代表所以大概有什麼意見在這個防疫任性的一個委員會裡面都會有重複的有藥廠跟醫材廠嗎 甚至社區藥局足夠代表嗎應該是 因為民和有限嘛所以我們目前是邀請藥師公會理事長"},{"start":2687.433,"end":2705.924,"text":"在裡面擔任委員,他也提供很寶貴的意見,協助我們整個醫療的一個韌性那至於剛剛您提的這三大公會的訴求,我們很感謝我們健保署非常的用心針對這些本一直的訴求在去年11月21號公告的一些預告的一些政策"},{"start":2710.667,"end":2738.329,"text":"那到1月20已經那個 那這段期間真的健保署的同仁也很辛苦把大家的意見在整理的好希望送到部裡面的時候能夠很快的來公告 來真正給給國內的製藥最大的一個幫助這部分請那個市署長補充一下市長這邊也在他的第二個訴求事實上是能夠促進學民藥的替代所以你這部分 因為我看你們製藥事實上是規劃當中可不可以加速"},{"start":2739.249,"end":2753.915,"text":"跟委員報告對於這個我們國內的整個健保一萬四千多個品項裡頭其實83%是屬於國內製造是佔了很大宗的那但是呢它的整個申報金額大概只有23%所以如何就簡單的講說它是這個"},{"start":2756.696,"end":2781.426,"text":"物聯價美啦所以我們是很希望去多鼓勵這個學民藥或者生物相似藥的使用所以我們在去年開始推動這個學民使用這個生物相似藥的這個獎勵措施所以本來它的佔率只有7%今年一年直施下來大概提升到13%那我們希望朝向30%這個目標來前進所以今年下半年還會再擴大那麼這個化學"},{"start":2784.787,"end":2800.785,"text":"化療的學名藥大概什麼時候下半年因為我們還要經過那個專家會議清單出來然後共同擬定會議通過就可以那楊署長這邊他的第三個訴求是因為未來預期我們國際藥價的漲價對國產"},{"start":2804.264,"end":2824.43,"text":"我們的藥商一定會產生一些衝擊那健保要價要及時反映市場價格做調動是不是說到這邊也有我們在這個藥品支付標準第34條跟35條他都有因應這個如果生產供應鏈改變成本不敷的時候可以提出這個臨時的調整藥價這個是有這個機制可以來進行所以這個機制都有"},{"start":2831.089,"end":2838.096,"text":"本來原定4月要公布實施的叫做全民健康保險藥物起伏項目跟支付標準跟全民健康保險"},{"start":2839.071,"end":2860.622,"text":"藥品價格跟調整的作業辦法這兩項那請問一下署長月底前可不可以如期公布實施跟委員報告謝謝委員很關切這兩個法案這一個是藥價調整辦法主要是要針對如果有國內製造屬於必要藥品品項在三項以下的當年度不調整藥價所以這個我們已經修好了"},{"start":2863.684,"end":2884.677,"text":"還有一個是支付標準對於國內製造使用國內的原料要都有加成的規定還有鼓勵這個新藥首先在台灣上市或者是在國外上市的兩年內到台灣來製造都有鼓勵的措施那因為是1月20號完成預告所以我們把大家的意見整理之後已經現在在做簽辦這個月底"},{"start":2889.139,"end":2890.96,"text":"因為現在是按照程序然後把所有的意見都弄好就麻煩你們4月底能夠如期因為我時間有稍微再給我一點時間藥品價格波動同樣衝擊我們國產的那個製藥的原"},{"start":2910.615,"end":2929.274,"text":"原料料的一個價格那我們看那個官務署的那個海關統計2022年自中國進口的原料的金額佔總金額的54%那如果由於中國原料料的價格都是比印度的原料料價格打7折所以從數量來看的話大概中國是佔70%"},{"start":2931.144,"end":2949.672,"text":"所以不只台灣全球都因為受到這種低價的吸引所以想問部長如果接下來要是抓住原藥料不出口的話台灣的國產制藥必定陷入在困境裡面所以在台灣對中國的高度依賴狀況下你怎麼去因應這個問題"},{"start":2950.831,"end":2971.538,"text":"好我想這個不管是燃料要用相關的物品第一個真的是全球的趨勢都是強調就地生產就地行銷這個部分可能未來要加強的那當然我們也會所以能不能考量多元化的用分散市場的觀念來處理那這個食藥署的署長再補充一下"},{"start":2976.175,"end":3002.324,"text":"我想委員這邊提到非常關鍵的議題的確我們在原料藥的來源中國跟印度佔的比相當高超過近50%以上所以近年來我們其實是極度的在支持跟國內的新的原料藥的生產比如說在去年裡面我們國內的申請的張數其實高達27張那我們希望未來能夠做分散我們可以看到不管是在歐洲系統"},{"start":3003.144,"end":3025.107,"text":"還是在亞洲地區的日本都是有機會讓我們去爭取的方向所以我想問一下部長能不能對我們的國產製藥廠做價差的貼布因為畢竟我們台灣有三十幾間的原藥藥廠可是每年反而是去外銷所以能不能讓國產的原藥料留在台灣"},{"start":3027.181,"end":3050.478,"text":"這個請你們去做考慮然後也請食藥署這邊是不是立刻盤點我們覺得政府應該要去充分掌握說那我們使用中國原藥料這樣的一個潛在危機所以你應該要去了解整個去針對中國的原藥料應該從政府手中的資料去勾結出來能夠去做對照到底哪些"},{"start":3051.397,"end":3077.09,"text":"優先品項你們這邊要充分掌握最後就是期待是不是因為八大藥業的工會上週都提出說縮短不利醫院採購藥品到期前有效期8個月縮短到6個月那食藥署這邊對這個表示說只要藥品只要在出廠標示的有效期限內都能確保藥效因此有效期限縮短不影響藥效的話那"},{"start":3078.905,"end":3097.604,"text":"可是卻可以降低到我們的藥商庫存的藥品壓力 我不知道部長你可不可以回應這個呼籲那個藥界的訴求都有它的道理 但是它有採購有一定的專家的一個會議這個在部立 因為你問部立業嘛 我請林青峰執行長簡料的回答一下"},{"start":3098.304,"end":3114.912,"text":"報告委員 最主要是我們的整個聯標是26家部裡還有18個縣市還有所有的這個縣市衛生局所所以它這個所謂的大小規模不一樣地域不一樣所以它在這個部分裡面有偏鄉離島所以他們牽涉到他們裡面的"},{"start":3115.952,"end":3131.952,"text":"需求剛剛部長特別提到因為我們是一個藥聯標委員會所以裡面有含有各醫院的院長還有藥劑主任還有專家學者所以他們都在統籌裡面也調查所有的醫院還有衛生所的需求所以在這個部分裡面我們也是尊重我們的現在藥聯標委員會它裡面的決議"},{"start":3134.295,"end":3161.101,"text":"第三個其實現在現行的體系的醫院包含台大或是退府會或是說軍方還有一些是聯義他們都是在八個月以上甚至還有一年所以在這個部分裡面其實我們都是交給我們的聯邦委員會因為我這邊最後就提出這五項請我們的部長這邊針對這五項後面待會我們會再持續追蹤後面我也有那個臨時提案我們聯義會持續努力謝謝"},{"start":3164.98,"end":3189.757,"text":"好 謝謝 請回 案例要安裝一點 不然時間有限 時間已經過很久了接下來請陳昭志陳委員謝謝主席 麻煩請邱部長兩位署長 江署長跟石署長麻煩帶一份今天的書面資料 一份就放桌上因為我對資料有點 今天看到有點問題兩位署長"},{"start":3196.991,"end":3197.513,"text":"就江處長 施處長"},{"start":3205.719,"end":3227.515,"text":"好部長跟兩位首長早那個對於藥品穩定供應的相關機制裡面再請看第二頁對於必要藥品的清單是很重要的那不好意思我可不可以麻煩那個江署長您可不可以念一下這一段因為這一段是您的你們署寫的來制定必要藥品清單請問是書面報告還是口頭報告你讀一下因為才三行字來麻煩快點"},{"start":3230.057,"end":3246.749,"text":"對,請署長讀,署長來第二頁,第二頁,制定必要清單呢?滾動式呢?您自己稍微了解一下你時間稍微考起來,時間稍微考起來,他們找不到自己的資料,拜託拜託時間給你考起來制定必要藥品"},{"start":3247.549,"end":3263.767,"text":"清單 滾動式檢討藥品清單以強化藥商預先通報的責任及必要藥品供應不足之與之實之因應之道好 請暫停 必要清單你知道有幾項嗎 必要藥品你知道大概有幾項嗎 誰決定的我們現在是訂了584項然後是誰決定的"},{"start":3267.924,"end":3273.749,"text":"是在我們這邊的盤點之後最後的確定下來就是誰決定誰去做這個必要清單的決定我們在食藥署這邊盤點確定下來的不是他一定有認定啊必要有一個認定過程啊這是第一個第二個你有這個名單你的目的是為了強化廠商通報嗎對"},{"start":3285.939,"end":3312.706,"text":"他不是為了強化廠商 因為我們最主要是要穩定嘛所以如果是一個寡占 我們的所謂的你說得好 署長所以他不是為了強化他通報機制廠商啊責任不在廠商啊你中央要有一個知道說我訂了必要清單你現在講不出必要清單是誰訂的OK啦 沒有就是說再去了解必要清單訂下來以後你要知道我要穩定供應不是廠商因為他不需要知道別人怎麼供應法"},{"start":3313.286,"end":3337.861,"text":"你同意嗎?你要有這個中央的監控我稍微提一下我這邊是我們針對這個必要的藥品清單確立之後他就會有相對的供應的廠商那我們會有一個登錄的系統底下能夠照他們藥庫裡面來要求因為你管的是幾百項你竟然訂了幾百項把我嚇到了好幾百項必要那我再問你一件事你知道健保署有他自己的另外一套清單"},{"start":3339.481,"end":3358.479,"text":"你知道嗎 我現在知道 你知道嗎這個我沒有很確定你們兩個從來沒有牽手 該我承受一下食藥署跟這個下游的 這就從來沒有牽手過好 那個施署長就麻煩你念一下第五頁黑是你的 所以我請你念來 第四項第五頁那個黑是 確保藥品供應維持合理請你念一下那一段 快一點 謝謝"},{"start":3359.9,"end":3383.973,"text":"確保藥品供應維持合理要價冒號經主管機關公告之必要藥品並符合同分組內有國內製造品項並符合同分組內有國內製造品項抗維生物質既不在此限這個重複了抱歉即從分組分類未遇及同分組分類"},{"start":3386.08,"end":3387.765,"text":"這個好像有三個品項的條件當年度要駕步與調整"},{"start":3393.547,"end":3415.692,"text":"以確保藥品供貨穩定 平衡藥價調整與健保支出再為我今天要多一點點時間 你看都是他們資料有問題第一個署長你讀不懂嘛對不對讀不通讀不通因為沒有整理文字 沒有確定就把它交上來嘛那對我們來說這很重要然後請問你健保署有所謂的必要藥品嗎"},{"start":3416.943,"end":3444.464,"text":"我們是參考這個FDA所訂的那個必要藥品清單為主請等一下健保署沒有必要藥品這四個字育文組長對不對沒有我們這個這次修法才有你的名稱是什麼你的名稱是什麼你不叫必要藥品因為你為了當年為了怕跟食藥署混在一起叫什麼特什麼他只要回答名字就好了我時間也很寶貴叫特殊叫我們特殊品"},{"start":3444.864,"end":3473.821,"text":"早就改了嗎我們叫特殊品對你們沒有必要藥品清單石組長你們沒有必要而且是2016年之前就改了現在我們在修法就是修這個就是藥價調整辦法修進來的這是新的草案條文石組長你剛剛第一個就是文字儀化整理大家看不懂而且我覺得三項以內應該就是不予調整要予調整這個讀起來都很奇怪還有兩位署長再麻煩你看部長就在旁邊了解你們兩個的必要藥品括號你叫特殊藥品你叫必要品"},{"start":3474.701,"end":3496.058,"text":"你有幾項 石鼠爪你有幾項必要 那個特殊品項我們現在有幾項我們現在以這個新的修法的剛剛這個條文的話是跟石藥署是一致的我們是用必要藥品一樣的名稱現在我們一直在處理啊你是叫特殊品項 而且你還裡面分兩類嘛沒有替代性跟有替代性的嘛然後你現在有幾項"},{"start":3497.321,"end":3518.118,"text":"你還沒修法都不要講我們現在有800多項啦好 你看 你倆有避過嗎?你的800跟你的500 你們有避過嗎?好 光光這個問題要解決這個什麼關稅的那個彩效你們的必要清單就都沒有了我今天在諮詢我們都有涵納啦那個FDA的必要藥品清單都在我們這個裡面"},{"start":3520.902,"end":3535.473,"text":"我們都包含在裡頭了好像不是喔 署長我對他置身三十年好像不是這樣 都是有專家認定的部長 你看 我先問你 不然兩位先回座好了這個署長 施署長 我等一下其實本來要告訴你你說可以調整 因為更不夠 必須調整但是你知道調整的過程要多久嗎"},{"start":3542.938,"end":3551.923,"text":"還有什麼步驟嗎 你知道嗎我們當然調整的過程還是需要跟廠商去議價那也要經過共同議會議通過不是不是 你要經過專家會議他經過共同議會議然後你要認定調價你允許 因為這太特別了這一次的調價你平常不是這麼做的你平常就算他們提出成本分析你都要去判斷說有沒有類似藥品其實成分不一樣有沒有類似藥品可以用有沒有 那個很判斷"},{"start":3571.213,"end":3596.561,"text":"很主觀的東西所以第一個你還說這個是必要品你先讓他申請你要不要認定認定可不可以調之後第二個才我怎麼調法或不調然後你的屬下堅持要分開會議處理要兩次會議處理我曾經提案在你還沒有開除我之前我曾經提案說兩件事一起處理不要等時間因為既然是重要的藥品缺藥過去也有缺藥不是現在才缺藥啊"},{"start":3597.341,"end":3619.172,"text":"但是你的步驟是這樣跟委員報告在這次輸液的時候我們就查取了快速的處理那個沒有問題我們這次已經有經驗了你的專家群會再去認定啊所以你這次報告寫的東西不對嘛因為報告寫裡面的必要清單我們就會給予這個如果說因為關稅等等要這樣改變我們就去處理但是你的專家可不是這樣講因為你的上情從來不下達專家還是用他原來那一套在跑好嗎"},{"start":3625.601,"end":3649.326,"text":"不過這個現在我們就很清楚了我們跟這次的修正辦法就是跟食藥署同步我們採用一樣的標準他認定的過程喔而且他認定還分兩次會議對不對 藝文組長沒錯吧結果我這次先認定你是不是屬於我們認為我們需要的不是你講的必要名單喔不是說放在必要清單特殊品項就直接調不是喔你就先說好"},{"start":3650.606,"end":3673.817,"text":"我先認定一次好下次會議也不知道一次個月還兩個月後好我再來認定好可能還是不調喔可能還是不調喔因為調價是兩件事認定跟調價兩件事情你們現在作業是這樣做的對當然是要有必要裁調當然是這樣啊這個藥品一定要分開嗎沒有可替代的我們裁調有替代的我們當然用替代還是要為健保省錢啊保管啊都在清單裡面啊那你的清單是假的"},{"start":3677.158,"end":3703.479,"text":"清單有兩種處理在這個必要藥品 清單剛剛我提到的是在調整藥價的時候它是稀缺品項 我們不予調價另外一個是調整 要調高調高那個是根據34條 35條你怎麼不簽手 你還跟他說800多項 你這個500多項你認定是必要藥品 那你又去設條件 設品牌特殊品項是800多 必要藥品我們現在是跟FDA同步了所以我們才在修這個辦法的目的就是在這裡 讓它同步"},{"start":3704.795,"end":3718.909,"text":"是他跟你同步你跟他同步你是要付錢的喔他的必要品可能不付錢喔你這個兩位署長你們要搞清楚你一個是負責發證讓這個藥品可以進來必要藥品我們一定會納入給付必要藥品一定納入給付"},{"start":3719.98,"end":3739.499,"text":"你過去不是這樣的原則的喔那我再跟你講一次你現在沒有必要藥品從我在這裡就是用這個原則在處理這件事你一直上情不下達你沒有進去開會啊你沒有進去開專家會議啊我在那邊30年了你沒有進去開會啊一直都不是這樣所以我今天真的是為了這個報告我今天的質詢稿都不能講了"},{"start":3740.82,"end":3755.635,"text":"我今天看你們第一個你們兩個數很重要一個上游是許可證進來進來後大家等著要健保給付你這個兩端大家從來不牽手各自做各自的你看大家也聽到到目前為止因為你說要準備修法"},{"start":3756.035,"end":3773.487,"text":"可是到目前為止你的必要清單跟你的以前叫必要清單後來叫特殊因為你們怕confuse在一起你們還擔心混淆在一起所以你們特別切割特別去切割然後又為了怕這個跟什麼WHO的必要品清單混在一起這件事一塌糊塗"},{"start":3774.648,"end":3778.992,"text":"然後處理方式都不一樣啊那現在說你要跟他看齊欸這麼快嗎幾百項要跟他看齊但是看齊了以後等到缺藥那你也不去處理要價啊那個處理要價另外一套規則你那幾十個專家委員從來沒有聽過你這套規則他們處理的方法幾十年都一樣還是用他們主觀的感覺去決定我要不要給你調降啊就算他給你成本分析你還是不給他動啊"},{"start":3799.229,"end":3805.341,"text":"我們今年在要價調整的時候就已經調整了200項都是調整要價油啊"},{"start":3806.345,"end":3835.254,"text":"有這個機制啊那不是必要藥品反正我今天因為我是針對你們的題目你們的書面資料我也讓部長知道部長當然不會知道這麼仔細第一個兩個各自有他的自己清單從來幾十年來從來不簽手的各自做各自的那健保署為了付錢有他自己的遊戲規則而且就是盡量時間很慢幾個月會通過一半以上都不給予調整"},{"start":3836.554,"end":3857.336,"text":"調生價錢或是調尤其是調生你們是非常非常小氣的完全就是等等等等然後到最後導致生理食鹽水嘛剩一家嘛對不對江署長生理食鹽水會搞到這樣就是因為他後來剩一家你不知道你的監測機制出問題嘛剩一家你都不注意你叫要他通報你一直盯他可是其他人沒有辦法再備著支援備用所以你這邊斷了"},{"start":3858.217,"end":3866.961,"text":"然後斷了以後健保署才不知道說我今天沒辦法談要價差你付25他賣18其他人撐不住就這一家長在撐用18塊撐到他也撐不住品質了出問題了然後林社長去國外買買51塊不准有要價差而且去年花了三四億今年又變了11億11億等著犯錯穩定生理食鹽水穩定專案經濟有責任"},{"start":3883.504,"end":3889.886,"text":"謝謝委員那我們其實特別跟委員報告我們3月24號這個供應的國內的廠已經恢復他的產線所以我們3月24號的監督機制就是怎麼去訪問我剛剛的重點說你哪必要清單都不一樣但是你們只記得以強化我特別讓你們以強化廠商的通報責任在廠商嘛你要通報廠商沒有必要負責我總共台灣有幾家在供應嘛所以這個供應的問題中央公司監測是由我們官方要來處理嘛不能當一家獨大然後那一家品質出問題"},{"start":3912.893,"end":3929.181,"text":"可能就是藥價差搞成沒有辦法沒有辦法用錢去生產有品質的所以全國大斷藥啊基本用就沒有了健保署是很後來的事情去調整的事情我今天你看以後把資料弄清楚然後把名詞弄清楚"},{"start":3929.881,"end":3952.439,"text":"食藥署迄今沒有必要藥品的清單食藥署的必要清單是用自己管理的不是為了讓廠商通報廠商通報只是其中他們要做的一件工作你要從中央控制不要再讓生理食鹽水這麼它還不算必要藥品我認為它是基本的用藥你沒有生理食鹽水更不能開業好嗎台灣的醫療業都不要營業了它是基本的用藥還不是必要必不必要的問題"},{"start":3953.561,"end":3954.302,"text":"非常謝謝我們委員做專業的一個建議要簽手 多簽手要簽手 要公開簽手"},{"start":3969.742,"end":3982.495,"text":"特別年紀相當 因為你上游發許可證 下游健保給付 大家要多合作我們共同為人民的健康 藥品的同意來一起努力非常謝謝委員長的指教 謝謝謝謝主席接下來請陳清威委員來做選擇"},{"start":3998.791,"end":4023.669,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員我們請邱部長 謝謝來 請部長委員長邱部長是現在已經是4月16號請問你過去做立委的時候啊這是您109年 110年 111年 112年啊您過去做立委的時候 您還記得這些時間你們都在幹嘛嗎"},{"start":4027.344,"end":4032.746,"text":"都在努力為人民的健康在奮鬥這個時候你們都在提出解凍報告還有解凍預算了甚至呢110年雖然稍晚是5月9號可是呢當時你們這個胃黃委員會有128案提案預算提案凍結各類的預算提案還發新聞稿行政院還發新聞稿說最後感謝三讀通過所以胃黃委員在5月9號也排了預算解凍的處理"},{"start":4057.077,"end":4063.041,"text":"那現在也讓您稍微回憶一下其實您過去這個110年111年也是大刀闊斧啦您又砍蔡政府砍蘇貞昌內閣的預算是不手軟那我有把您的一些緣由啊理由啊都有讀完了"},{"start":4075.009,"end":4078.091,"text":"110年您砍了防疫業務的錢砍了少子化降低家庭負擔經費的錢到110年呢你一樣是砍了防疫的錢砍了傳染病防治業務的錢砍了WHO業務的錢但是"},{"start":4091.242,"end":4107.919,"text":"當時陳時中部長是非常積極的把解凍的報告我查了一下您當4年的這個立委期間陳時中部長呢都是大概在3月3月初就把解凍報告全部都送進來了所以我在這邊也很想問您啊"},{"start":4109.581,"end":4137.543,"text":"這個今年的解凍這個凍結案有藍的有綠的有白的為什麼你遲遲不把解凍報告送進來讓我們解凍經費呢因為我們看了一些其他委員會的質詢也有部長看起來像是覺得好像有上級授意還是說柯總召的指示你們是整齊劃一的動作在遲遲不提出解凍報告但是您擔任立委的期間我看您是非常負責在"},{"start":4138.904,"end":4163.138,"text":"砍預算而且非常負責在監督政府也非常負責在審這些解凍的報告然後也協助衛環委員會跟陳時中部長配合解凍請問有什麼緣由嗎到現在還沒有辦法提出解凍報告謝謝委員我可不可以先針對你這兩張PowerPoint解釋一下第一個我當了兩屆的立委"},{"start":4164.562,"end":4180.575,"text":"我的核酸這樣好像不太盡責但是我很用心在審查預算都覺得行政部門真的是有需要為了人民的健康在努力所以我們也盡量讓不應該酸的就不要去酸不應該凍的也不要影響人家去凍"},{"start":4182.697,"end":4193.202,"text":"所以我要解釋的第一你剛列出來的都是動的我可以把我可以可以可以我唸完了我已經把你的理由我已經把你的理由都已經我已經把你的理由都讀完了我覺得是合理的合理的沒錯"},{"start":4199.145,"end":4217.924,"text":"我現在只想問你嘛因為你過去這四年你也很認真的看了陳時中部長的解凍報告那你也來配合做解凍的動作嘛所以為什麼你現在不送解凍報告嘛因為你完全了解這個流程啊所以現在在卡解凍的人是你啊"},{"start":4220.574,"end":4224.936,"text":"你什麼時候要送馬因為前幾天教育部部長說前幾天教育部部長說大概兩到三週那您可以給我們一個時程嗎"},{"start":4235.299,"end":4250.971,"text":"我想我們的思想因為因為這整個相當的一個這次的動山預算跟以前是不一樣的完全的不一樣所以有點出乎意料之外所以有很多事情要處理而且必須要去"},{"start":4251.271,"end":4259.973,"text":"完全的不一樣其實我有核對一下您對小子化的評論還有我有核對您對疫情愛滋病防治的評論很多都跟我們現在的看法是相同的喔很多都跟我們現在看法相同的喔你當時覺得防治愛滋病做得不夠好然後你當時也覺得有些小子化做得不夠好所以其實我們現在只是想要問你我們現在只是想要問你依照您"},{"start":4279.617,"end":4300.841,"text":"當時擔任委員的經驗還有您當時解凍報告的經驗請問你大概還需要幾週我其實就是很簡單的問你你大概幾週內想要提出解凍報告嗎我只是要問你這個問題因為這次我們的委員的確要求的比較嚴格所以我們非常謹慎所以你的意思是說你回答不出來所以你回答不出來不是你回答不出來我們在努力當中所以你講不出幾個禮拜講不出幾個禮拜我覺得"},{"start":4308.822,"end":4331.224,"text":"我們會盡快 請委員放心可以 教育部長也說盡快 所以他講兩到三週那您的盡快是多少我想我們衛福部也要至少要跟教育部一起兩到三週你要追求教育部兩到三週我們期待那個你要不要先從你覺得最重要的開始 要不要"},{"start":4333.851,"end":4348.655,"text":"呃...也可以啊而且我查了一下哈當時陳時中部長一邊在應付疫情非常的忙碌但是他交這個結論報告從來沒有delay過都是3月初喔好 那...好 你也是2到3週嘛你是2到3週嘛 對吧 是嘛是...是2到3週"},{"start":4354.881,"end":4370.915,"text":"我想我們時間上我想我們不要去做那個你剛才說你會配合教育部對 但是但是如果說你說要我醫院要兩到三週我當然就會接著說我們希望兩到三週送你覺得最重要的這樣怎麼樣我們來努力"},{"start":4374.778,"end":4378.881,"text":"沒有答案再來我們來問經濟部有沒有發現我們藥品的逆差是48.2億元所以剛雖然有講到說進口的藥美國的藥 歐洲的藥不管進口的藥雖然數量佔的不多但其他的價值佔了七成因為它的藥費是貴的"},{"start":4397.913,"end":4418.821,"text":"這是貴的這也是我們的製藥工會統計出來的所以當然您有提到說這個供應鏈的生態啊原物料的漲價一定會造成藥價變貴那我現在是想問啊您有提到說您為扶植在地的廠商所以有兩個行政辦法修正按碼剛剛也有許多人講到了"},{"start":4419.261,"end":4429.526,"text":"之前好像有點嚴當但是最近的新聞又說4月要上路請問這個4月要上路是確定要上路是會跳票還是不會因為之前跳票了一次"},{"start":4430.373,"end":4449.439,"text":"好 我跟委員報告齁 我們完全 據瞭解完全沒有延擋而且還 我還敬佩健保署的同仁在時事長領導之下把這兩個政策做得非常的完美而且在11月20號就預告那因為有很多的一些意見所以我們必須 這已經是"},{"start":4451.039,"end":4472.114,"text":"其他在對等其他的法案規定已經是最快的速度很快會送到衛福部來那我想一定會是4月上路符合大家的需要4月會上路那現在是4月中嘛如果我想這幾天應該就會完成我們用最快的速度來公告所以您預計做出應該4月底好我們也想問因為這個也是台灣致藥業滿關切的你預計做出什麼成績那民眾會對藥價會有什麼感受"},{"start":4479.719,"end":4499.758,"text":"您預計做出什麼成績這個請那個政策擬定則實施長來跟委員跟委員報告這裡面分成幾塊那第一個當然就是剛剛提到對國內的國內製藥的支持所以我們在這個藥價調整辦法裡面有新修對於這個"},{"start":4501.089,"end":4520.078,"text":"必要藥品清單裡頭那麼國內的這個品項有國內製造的品項然後那個該組裡面少於三個品項以下的那我們就免於這個當年度我們就不調藥價所以藥價不會一直往下砍的意思那同時這裡面呢如果是有一個必要抗生素的話"},{"start":4521.799,"end":4534.284,"text":"連國際進來的我們也都一起比照所以這個是第一個那第二個呢我們在這個資物標準裡面也有一些支持的措施那麼譬如說呢你是使用國內的原料藥我們加價10%在國內做過的臨床試驗有發表paper這個讓這個學名藥有這個"},{"start":4540.086,"end":4559.221,"text":"公信力那這個我們也是加價10%的那另外我們也去鼓勵這個這個新藥的上市過去我們只有對於台灣的首發新藥就全球首發我們才有這個優惠的價但我們現在也去鼓勵如果你是在國際先上市的兩年內到國內來製造"},{"start":4560.822,"end":4575.051,"text":"的這種新藥我們也有合價的優惠措施這邊我也是幫他們請命啦因為他們有提到說之後如果他們證明他們生產成本有增加的話其實你也會適當反應在藥價調整機制中嘛這個不管對於進口廠商還有國內廠商您都會一樣做但是國內呢他們還有面臨一個隱形的成本也就是說水費啊電費啊通膨啊所以他們希望在這個您可不可以考慮把它納入"},{"start":4589.286,"end":4605.772,"text":"就是水電費我記得上次的電費有特別有處理過委員也有協助醫院 醫療端還有通棚那再來想問一下因為部長非常在意的是這個"},{"start":4607.412,"end":4624.979,"text":"戰備任性的藥品的這個list因為您現在上次我們經歷了生理鹹水這個混亂其實藥品它是一個非常重要的戰略物資所以未來一旦發生供應鏈中斷或是遞原的風險我們應該要怎麼辦請問我們可以跟你要到這個list嗎因為裡面一定有東西是"},{"start":4626.399,"end":4648.817,"text":"獨佔或是寡佔我們絕對只能仰賴進口的你想得出來哪一些嘛比如說剛剛有提到的癌藥啊 罕病藥啊還有在專利期之內的啊COVID的用藥啊 COVID的疫苗啊等等這個您定不定義為是一個戰略物資我們戰略物資是另外一塊我們是定義的就是跟食藥署合作的必要藥品清單"},{"start":4649.637,"end":4663.713,"text":"所以我們之後可以跟您要到這個清單嗎報告委員這584項所謂必要藥品的清單是我們已經在今年2月份已經公佈完全已經確立下來所以可以提供給委員"},{"start":4664.714,"end":4685.286,"text":"另外第二個部分特別提到所謂的戰備的相關的藥物的韌性的時候是有25項的舉例是抗生素裡面的Amoxicillin的抗生素比如說Epinephrine, Arthropine等等的我們比較在意的是這個戰備清單裡面有沒有一定會是大部分仰賴進口的因為這個絕對有"},{"start":4688.321,"end":4694.306,"text":"我們目前都是國產的那我們希望COVID用藥還在專利期所以COVID用藥我們大部分是仰賴進口對這個是"},{"start":4696.98,"end":4704.523,"text":"你沒有把它放進戰備物資?並不是特別的戰備 戰備物資是在暫時平時轉鑽石非常非常關鍵的用藥特別是在戰傷的那個部分好 沒關係 這個我們等拿到您的這份list我們可以再一樣樣逐項討論那再來也問一個這個醫界非常關心的問題因為下一波呢"},{"start":4718.267,"end":4743.786,"text":"川普要談判的就是對於這個藥品那藥品他目前很強調的這個也是我們都在業內所以我們也知道現在這些美商啦美國的藥廠啊他其實長期就是非常介意我們有許多的非關稅貿易壁壘你審查他的新藥太久啦你給付他的藥價太低啊等等其實也嚴重的妨礙到我們病人的權益尤其是有一些"},{"start":4744.306,"end":4759.424,"text":"癌症病人他們希望可以用到新藥等等的所以在這未來90天的談判藥品的談判藥品進口的談判一定會是很重要的一環我想知道這個你們有沒有派出衛福部的代表一起參與這一次的談判我想要"},{"start":4764.643,"end":4791.734,"text":"藥品醫材是雙方面的啦互相所以至少到現在是用零關稅在互相對待部長我先跟你解釋一下我們比較擔心的是說在整個關稅的這樣的一個變動當中的確成本會增加那這個部分我們國內已經很早都有一個從一個及早來監測然後缺藥的一個處理然後藥價的一個調整都已經很完整了"},{"start":4792.254,"end":4806.289,"text":"所以現階段是沒有缺藥的問題我現在沒有在跟你講缺藥第一個是成本增加第二個他要談的是很多非關稅貿易壁壘也就是他希望打破以前他禁藥禁台灣的這些障礙他要把它列入他的談判項目白話文來說白話文來說"},{"start":4813.496,"end":4821.647,"text":"就是如果我們價格談不攏他就不想進台灣影響到病人的權益但是如果我們硬著頭皮把這些進口藥買進來"},{"start":4823.697,"end":4848.423,"text":"很多醫生真的很擔心會壓縮到我們的健保點子啊所以我想問你的因應是什麼因為這個就是他們放在非關稅貿易壁壘裡面很重要的一個項目也是長期我們看這些外商的藥廠來跟我們遊說的嘛他們就是說我們這審查很慢嘛然後給他的價格非常的低有的人就乾脆不想進來了嘛"},{"start":4849.858,"end":4864.699,"text":"好 包委我想在談判的事情並不是非A及B而是有雙方共同創造利益共同創造三領的局面站在我們的政府絕對是站在人民健康的維護"},{"start":4866.661,"end":4869.462,"text":"那個立場上來做相關的談判那中間有很多很有智慧的一個互動所以你會派代表一起參與我們一直在因為他有各種層次的一個幕僚我們當然都有充分的把我們的這一邊的醫藥品醫療的醫療體系"},{"start":4886.111,"end":4891.973,"text":"藥品醫材方面的一個資訊以及我們盤點的進入一個幕僚在盤判的我先在這邊跟部長示警因為我覺得未來我們勢必這個健保總額一定是不足的因為你說他是零關稅沒錯但是我們現在第一波所有這些鋁"},{"start":4906.856,"end":4928.467,"text":"包裝的材料啊玻璃瓶啊等等就是我們藥品製造裡面大量用到的包裝材料所以他賣進來的錢是一定增加的他賣進來的錢是一定增加的所以未來這個是部長你很大的一個挑戰我相信我們還會在這邊就健保點值在同樣一個問題我們還會再談論到他"},{"start":4931.508,"end":4936.351,"text":"委員報告一下真的很感謝我們立法院尤其衛反這些委員前輩們的努力我們今年的健保總額成長是有史以來最高的同時政府也給了...我知道你們在訂立成長總額的...你訂立成長總額的時候還沒發生這件事情如果未來我們當然有一個機制如果需要的話我相信政府一樣"},{"start":4954.88,"end":4967.826,"text":"會秉持著像今年給我們這麼多的一個預算一樣來充分的讓我們的人民健康得到最好的保障這邊就是先給您一個示警一個提醒大家一起努力 不好意思召委 謝謝那接下來請王毓民委員來做選擇"},{"start":4984.093,"end":4986.803,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們是不是有請我們邱部長"},{"start":4992.782,"end":4998.924,"text":"委員好部長好部長是這個有關於川普他要提高關稅這件事情其實是讓很多的行業都受到衝擊那對於衛福部來講其實本席覺得最重要的是在這一次的談判當中我們能不能守住國人健康作為最優先的底線而且不要把國人的健康"},{"start":5019.969,"end":5049.37,"text":"拿出去談判這個是重中之重喔部長你有沒有看過2025年美國貿易代表署他所提交的外貿的這個障礙評估報告點名台灣有幾件事都跟你有關喔是你有關注到嗎好那我們就來探討一下這次他所提到的幾個重點喔第一個他竟然要求我們美豬美牛不可以再標示"},{"start":5050.689,"end":5067.299,"text":"這個你同意嗎好 我想我們的原則非常簡單一定以我們台灣人民的健康守護為最優先那第二個就是我們要有科學的根據來做基礎當然要符合國際的標準"},{"start":5068.8,"end":5077.422,"text":"我想以這樣的情況來做未來的不管是任何的一個所以部長你這樣子講我們就很擔心了因為你說符合國際的標準我這邊就特別點出來請問豬的腎臟就是我們台語講的郵寄這件事情他竟然要求我們就是應該要開放這個部分那你知道當時我們為什麼針對豬的內臟"},{"start":5098.708,"end":5121.52,"text":"這個特別是腎臟的部分去做一些的進食為什麼坐月子啊我就直接講了齁那個食藥署的江署長是腎臟科的教授好來食藥署署長是腎臟科教授你有贊成這個美國的豬的腎臟進口到台灣讓我們的婦女坐月子的時候可以大吃特吃沒有關係嗎"},{"start":5123.842,"end":5148.257,"text":"報告委員就腎臟部分我算有研究那就我們的國人的飲食的特殊性那對於坐月子的時候涉食我們的豬腎臟那這個豬腰子特別是麻油麻油腰子那我們特殊的情形下我們也精算過相關的可能的潛在的風險所以就兩個層次第一個就是"},{"start":5149.518,"end":5166.54,"text":"剛才提到的標示的問題的部分那我們的標示目前是一體私用豬肉的部分是不跟國內國外任何國家一律標示那這樣子的做法其實在美國提出來的議題當中其實我們沒有特別針對什麼做歧視的"},{"start":5167,"end":5176.688,"text":"所以這個部分是我們不會退讓嗎很重要的一件事情是對於你要回答我們是不是堅持還是會繼續標示我們現在既定的就是做標示這件事情我覺得未來我們國內呢我們非常非常鼓勵我們積極的去持續的標示這件事情是我們對於國內相關的產業能夠持續的支持的一個很重要的一點那就關於剛才提到第二點"},{"start":5190.92,"end":5211.101,"text":"所謂動物殘餘裡面的腎臟有更嚴格的標準裡面因為我們盤點過也算過精算過裡面的數字我們了解它的整個殘餘的過程所以我們會基於科學的基礎因為是要用風險評估的一個基礎那有必要的時候我可以協助做很精細的一個計算我們整體的曝露量"},{"start":5212.743,"end":5223.09,"text":"讓國人在面對食品安全國外的相關進口的食品的時候了解他潛在的風險是怎麼樣這是我可以做得到的地方跟委員做進一步的報告我是說美方這樣子要求我們有要退讓嗎還是維持原來的我們的一個"},{"start":5230.215,"end":5248.619,"text":"範定的標準跟規定豬的腎臟你有要開放嗎我們針對食品安全世界都是用WHO或者是FL Codex其實用同樣的標準還有食用量的問題還有我們的飲食文化所以當時為什麼對於豬腎臟特別提出來就是因為我們的飲食文化比較特殊"},{"start":5255.661,"end":5282.432,"text":"這個一定要納入考量啊所以你們現在的立場我們有把相關的基準其實都給我們整個談判的一個過程當中我們這個也很好我們的建議我們對於它整個風險的部分其實我們特別特別提出來你們已經有給談判代表一個你們的建議了嗎我們有特別提到我們過去的一個風險的一個情形歷史上的因素所以你們的最終的建議是什麼就是維持現行的做法不用調整還是你們是持一個彈性可以讓他們去談"},{"start":5284.25,"end":5309.363,"text":"因為我們是以它的數字它的風險的鋪路這個署長你回答比較直接一點告訴我你們衛福部的立場到底是什麼當美國提出這樣的貿易障礙報告的時候我們的底線是什麼我們堅持的原則是什麼我們的底線就是以科學評估出來的數字當作是一個基準來做雙方去做最重要的談判的基準事實上目前我們能夠做的也是只有這一點"},{"start":5310.003,"end":5334.182,"text":"我覺得你們缺乏一個態度就是捍衛國人的健康你們講的這樣子就是模糊以對然後說什麼標準什麼標準就一句話就可以結束嗎如果過去我們認為這個是對的即使美國他提出了貿易障礙報告我們應該站在國人的健康的原則上面就是我們維持我們一貫的標準這個是我們不會去退讓的底線這句話不敢講嗎"},{"start":5335.903,"end":5340.427,"text":"還是你們根本就是鬆動了 所以才不敢講因為美國的壓力太大了報導委員 我們這邊其實是會計算我們國人設施的一個特殊所以要不要維持原來的標準嘛 我就問這句話嘛我們過去已經執行好多年了那是不是要繼續往下執行 就這樣就好"},{"start":5359.206,"end":5382.527,"text":"以科學的評估出來的標準當作是談判的基礎那你有沒有改變嗎因為他在萊克多巴胺局說以前交感神經的制度在哪裡都是一樣的我只是要行政部門一個答案那部長你回答好了我覺得署長的回答就是沒有辦法讓外界很清楚就是一個你的底線是什麼過去我們都"},{"start":5383.248,"end":5401.387,"text":"都守住這一個標準這一次美國貿易代表署他們又提出來了貿易障礙報告我們要退讓了嗎我想我剛剛再重複一下我想政府以及我們衛福部一樣都絕對是堅守人民的健康為最重要的一個立場"},{"start":5402.208,"end":5413.576,"text":"那剛剛署長也有提到我們提供我們衛福部是以專業的角色提供了科學的分析風險的一個分析給我們那個談判的團隊那你有沒有改變你的標準嗎我們的標準就是依照跟過去都一模一樣嗎還是你們有鬆動你們有沒有改變我在問的是這個嘛"},{"start":5430.1,"end":5444.383,"text":"我們是國人要知道是說你現在是不是還是繼續守住過去以來你們的標準然後你們態度立場還是要去限制我想政府對於人民的健康的守護是絕對不會鬆動的好你就是這句話不會鬆動這個才是重點不會鬆動對人民健康維護的決心好"},{"start":5451.025,"end":5474.705,"text":"所以部長你這句話我要的就是這句話就是要非常明確的一個底線跟立場那所以另外一個問題就是所以當然就是要依照基改食品依照當然就是風險評估還有科學這過去都評估過了嘛所以才會做出政策嘛所以我們過去都已經評估過了嘛還有加上我們的文化因素所以才會是訂定這樣的一個標準嘛那另外一個玉米跟大豆的基改"},{"start":5475.606,"end":5503.759,"text":"的這一些食品他也覺得不可以有兩種稅號應該要全面的解禁這件事情你們的態度跟立場是什麼有鬆動嗎就我們現在對於基因改造的玉米大豆這部分是列在食品安全管理法內的所以在食品安全管理法沒有在修正之前我們的是依法的行政來執行那會不會因為美國的壓力你們自己就要提出修法要去修食安法裡面的第24條"},{"start":5505.3,"end":5518.865,"text":"現在24條裡面我們是很明確的規定吼含有基改食品的這個原料成分都是要標示的未來你們會不會因為美方的壓力你們自己就提出修法要把這一條改掉了 會不會你們的底線是什麼 會會不會"},{"start":5523.973,"end":5549.028,"text":"我想針對基因改造相關的食品這個議題其實在先進的國家目前在叫基因編輯非常精準的農業的部分那個部分可能是在跨在另外一個農業部的裡面的專業底下所以在不同的一個時空背景底下會不會有進一步的一個調整這目前我們在食安法裡面24條的列的是條列是非常非常清楚的我們是依照上面條列的在執行"},{"start":5550.014,"end":5563.245,"text":"就是將來即使談判完之後你們敢不敢保證這一條衛福部的立場是不會鬆動的在食安法裡面現行的規定不可能再去提出修法的改變你們基本的態度跟立場是什麼 部長"},{"start":5564.69,"end":5581.108,"text":"你現在敢回答嗎一切的一個決策我想政府跟衛福部都一樣真的還是考慮的最重要的還是一定要守護人民的健康好 守護人民的健康不要因為政治壓力而轉彎為什麼我在這邊要問得這麼的清楚"},{"start":5583.951,"end":5589.916,"text":"因為如果我們看到從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統基本上兩個總統的立場就不一樣了蔡英文總統的時候他就是落實食品標示食品來源國到了賴清德總統的時候他主動提到他要排除非關稅貿易障礙而剛剛我讓你看到的這個由美國他的貿易代表所提出來的報告他就是認定剛剛講的"},{"start":5613.135,"end":5622.944,"text":"這一些是關稅貿易障礙但我們的賴總統說要排除所以當然國人就很擔心啊不同的總統立場不一樣所以當賴總統說要開放的時候部長你敢反對嗎"},{"start":5628.171,"end":5646.558,"text":"我想我歷任兩任的總統,我都很了解他們對於人民的健康的維護,絕對是不以一例這是沒有變的所以你對賴總統有信心?當然對,有信心好,那我希望我們是可以捍衛住,因為我現在看到賴總統態度是鬆動的接下來我就問這個藥品跟醫材的部分"},{"start":5651.14,"end":5678.239,"text":"現在美方還沒有公布他關於藥品的這個關稅但是我們看到事實上我們跟美國的這個藥品的相關進出口的情況我們對美國是逆差其實我們從美方進口的藥品還比較多我們是逆差那出現逆差又不是順差的情況他還要再提高我們的關稅 部長這樣合理嗎目前目前藥品還沒有還是沒關稅啊"},{"start":5679.865,"end":5704.03,"text":"但是他說藥品的部分下一步會不會在這個談但是我們已變應變我們已經過去我們已經很好的一個體系在應變了所以基本上我們是可以迎接任何的挑戰所以也不應該再加關稅對不對因為基本上現在美國進口到我們的藥品還挺多我們當然盡量爭取互惠跟三贏的機會"},{"start":5706.031,"end":5709.755,"text":"但是最近這個議題行政院編的880億裡面我們的衛福部其實是零預算就是在各部會的預算裡面你們沒有被安排那萬一在我們的一些相關的藥廠他們受到衝擊的時候需要補助的時候"},{"start":5723.51,"end":5728.515,"text":"部長你錢從哪裡來為什麼獨漏我們的衛福部他忽略了這個整個關稅之戰可能對於藥品類也會產生衝擊從原料的部分的成本的提高然後到後面的這一些我們的進出口可能受到衝擊為什麼獨漏衛福部衛福部在這一波裡面你們是話外之地沒有關係"},{"start":5747.474,"end":5764.386,"text":"謝謝委員的垂行 那我想社會的挑戰 國際的挑戰是一波一波的那第一波裡面就沒有藥品這個部分你覺得你們從幾處要講而且我們也不會有缺藥的 也沒有缺藥已經那如果萬一有到藥品的時候 你的錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":5768.189,"end":5790.455,"text":"我相信政府有必要政府就會像今天你會行政院就馬上會給你錢今年一樣能夠給不管是在我們的健保的成長率或者是公務預算的部分我相信政府都會準備好那至於現在就沒有這個問題所以大家也不要過度擔心我們已經都我們要提早做好風險的管控就是因為我們做好提早的準備所以才不用擔心"},{"start":5792.022,"end":5814.507,"text":"你們是連預算都沒有準備所以我才很擔心啦這個我覺得還是要好好的去因應啦現在第一波的時候行政院是沒有想到這一塊所以也沒有給你們錢所以我今天早上已經談很久就是我們不管是在藥品醫材所以我只問你啦如果有衝擊到的時候你的預算從哪裡來880億沒裂魂啦那你的錢要從哪裡來你告訴大家就好"},{"start":5815.305,"end":5836.952,"text":"我想我們就要看他的到底長的量這整個國際的情勢的一個變化我們隨時如果有人家其他部會勞動部也有一百多億就是傳在那裡農業部也有一百多億放在那裡但是衛福部是沒有聽的每一個預算都是有他要去用的地方那我們現在目前在要價這個部分"},{"start":5837.894,"end":5848.665,"text":"這在至少在第一個階段裡面我們目前你們覺得不會受衝擊不是不會受衝擊是足可應付衝擊的那你是用你健保的錢嗎你的錢從哪裡來"},{"start":5854.325,"end":5875.793,"text":"因為健保的成長率今年也比較高,所以我們比較有空間來做成長但如果有必要會去影響到健保,我相信我們政府絕對會沒有把握去增值到預算就對了,但是你現在其實沒有880億是還沒拿到錢因為第一階段不會有影響我要確定的就是這個,好謝謝"},{"start":5880.96,"end":5888.784,"text":"這邊做一個公告,我們到盧縣議委員催省完之後就休息,接下來請林淑雯委員謝謝主席,我們先請邱部長邱部長來"},{"start":5914.011,"end":5917.123,"text":"委員好部長你說到現在為止沒有缺藥漲價之餘這句話說得很快"},{"start":5919.741,"end":5946.031,"text":"我聽到覺得膽戰心驚最好是如此你今天的書面報告裡面直接就講了你們的因應作為對穩定這個藥品的供應的相關機制因應作為第一建立藥品短缺通報處理機制第二個制定必要藥品的清單第三鼓勵業者增加原料來源和儲備建立原料要加速審查機制最後還主動監控國內外藥品的供應我現在要問你第三點第四點"},{"start":5947.472,"end":5971.21,"text":"叫大家囤比較多原料欸這些原料都沒有效期嗎?這一批原料用完了以後如果國際間大家都知道中國和印度如果為了因應美國的這一波關稅的這個調整那他們在原料供應上也漲價呢?或者是沒有機遇漲價自然的供需失衡因為大家都要搶 你要搶大部分人也要搶原料"},{"start":5973.992,"end":5995.696,"text":"在這個供需失衡大量之間瞬間的需求大量增加大家都知道價格一定上漲光是這樣子價格就會上漲你還敢說現在沒有當然現在沒有啊但是未來就有啊所以你來講建立原料要的加速審查機制加速審查跟價格上漲供需失衡這樣的問題有相關嗎你講了這樣子就可以穩定了嗎"},{"start":6000.497,"end":6027.584,"text":"價格上漲以後藥品的價格上漲當然會排擠到整個健保預算所以這一些醫生在擔心的是排擠到他們的點值會下降他們醫院擔心的是藥品的成本上漲這個通通都是一環扣一環非常嚴重的事你制定藥品清單我就不好意思講了以前生理食鹽水之亂生理食鹽水之亂它不是必要的藥品"},{"start":6029.659,"end":6045.377,"text":"你說你們要這個有短缺通報機制然後監控國內外藥品的供應哪一次你們沒有監控啊 我不好意思說你們的鮮血水之亂還不是必要藥品 你就沒得了 有監控就沒得了啊"},{"start":6046.314,"end":6071.865,"text":"哪一次沒有監控完藥品還是短缺啦休暑它的藥品組的監控能力在哪裡連國內藥品都沒有能力監控了現在要監控國外的藥品我們的能力你真的對自己這麼百分之百的自負嗎更不要講光是食鹽水之亂我就提出了一個清單叫你們盤點"},{"start":6073.362,"end":6082.57,"text":"你們盤點了多久啊我說國內藥品 市占不均容易發生原料短缺的藥品名單如果沒有我叫你們去盤點 你們沒有盤點我叫你們盤點 講過幾遍 你清單搞不出來問幾遍啦 搞不出來所以食藥署跟衛福部一直被人家講管理食品也不行 藥品也不行"},{"start":6101.705,"end":6109.249,"text":"現在我更高興的是 保證你第一次跟他說有恃無恐跟他說我都喘得好好的 沒事情沒問題今天你說的這幾項就答非所問了常常出問題 不是沒問題我...我...好啦 我現在從頭問起好了啦"},{"start":6123.656,"end":6130.761,"text":"現在我問你們說光是盤點美國製造的美國當地製造進來的藥品或醫材清單品項數量光是這個喔多少喔 我不懂怎麼說只要你們自己補你今天報告的跟食藥署提供的跟健保署提供的就倒不會罵啦"},{"start":6148.783,"end":6161.232,"text":"倒不會嗎跟他一個數量的盤點你的數據提供出來都不會正確了那我跟他講缺藥的問題缺藥的問題在關稅這個政策以前早就存在了缺藥的問題講多久了沒有美國關稅這個題目我們國內問題就很嚴重了這又不是現在你還說現在都沒問題"},{"start":6178.444,"end":6201.297,"text":"沒有美國關稅這一題 現在問題就很嚴重現在是美國關稅政策的之下會不會更嚴重所以醫改會在講說啊我們高度仰賴進口仰賴美國供應的 特別他指出癌症用藥疫苗聽得清楚 疫苗"},{"start":6203.018,"end":6224.007,"text":"高階醫材 小兒醫材 抗生素等美國供應商常連扮演著關鍵性的角色所以關稅上路這些進口的產品成本一定會上升而最終成本一定轉嫁到民眾身上"},{"start":6225.187,"end":6233.717,"text":"甚至大家都知道會這是剛性需求而你真的沒藥缺藥危及病人的用藥權益知識體大餒知識體大餒"},{"start":6239.628,"end":6265.804,"text":"所以這個我們缺藥是因為我們台灣的市場小 利潤低我們只有單一買家叫健保署仰賴特定供應商那一旦進口變貴或者是供應中斷根本找不到替代品那這對長照的病人特別是兒童長者身障 癌症"},{"start":6267.065,"end":6268.048,"text":"這個衝擊很大 你怎麼會有很多人在問你 你都說要煮成丸丸這樣"},{"start":6273.151,"end":6300.739,"text":"然後健保 健保問題很大捏健保的財務壓力很大捏 緊繃捏你不是說癌症給付的那個幾十億移出去 公務預算給了就沒問題捏他這個財務壓力這麼大壓縮給付醫生擔心的是點子下降可是我們擔心的是病人就醫的權益啊就醫的可敬性會受影響"},{"start":6302.751,"end":6315.978,"text":"所以台灣的健保制度為了財務平衡已經從區域總額已經改到大醫院你要個別醫院總額制了所以各項的醫療給付都受限於總額的管制一旦採購成本上升 藥品成本上升"},{"start":6327.895,"end":6348.681,"text":"他一定會壓縮到醫生的點子要不然就是醫院面臨經營的壓力所以呢 縮減開支 降低禁藥量降低禁藥量也是影響到用藥人耶那你沒有降低禁藥量 全部都轉嫁費用給病患"},{"start":6351.89,"end":6366.834,"text":"欸 你這樣什麼都去掛貨費啊 去部分負擔啊 去大行農莊 去現在再來藥品 這樣是要再去 要再去所以 健保才會這麼困難還要承擔 額外承擔關稅上升的額外成本我跟你說 你不是說 你現在都一句話說沒關係 我們學名藥 國藥國用 國產國藥國用你講得太簡單了"},{"start":6378.459,"end":6380.4,"text":"台灣要做藥學名藥原料都很靠的中國跟印度我們都要中國的比較多中國不會棄價嗎瞬間需求量大增怎麼會不會棄價"},{"start":6395.283,"end":6418.056,"text":"這個影響衝擊最大的很多人其實是有商業保險的 有自費能力的可是更多人是偏鄉的低收入戶人 長期病患的弱勢族群他們首當其衝 他們沒有商業保險醫療領域他是陽剛性需求如果今天癌症用藥缺了 不可能叫病人等兩個月"},{"start":6419.938,"end":6435.927,"text":"是不是 柏定你也說說看 我說這個問題你都認為沒問題嗎報告委員 委員所提的真的都非常的深入跟專業個人表達最大的敬意那你剛剛的問題 其實我們長期在醫藥 醫藥藉 藥藉 醫材藉"},{"start":6442.378,"end":6452.245,"text":"生醫界都一直在努力希望把我們的一個醫療體系長期在努力在長期被詬病長期處理不好長期沒有能力應變沒有一下子就滿分但是我們一定好中在好一直在改善我想這個部分經委員也要珍惜我們國內這些醫藥 醫材 特種"},{"start":6466.575,"end":6474.082,"text":"這麼多同仁在努力的應該給他們鼓勵那我們還做不到的我們繼續來努力他們在期望政府的政策引導他們在期待有政府會做事有政府能帶領有政府可以帶領他們看到到底他們要怎麼應變特別廠商 特別藥商有辦法應變嗎"},{"start":6491.277,"end":6494.499,"text":"我們的政策一直努力守護人民的健康 這是第一個你跟我說 當前仰賴美國進口的藥品和醫材我沒有要跟你說幾張藥證啦"},{"start":6502.967,"end":6510.51,"text":"哪有這麼簡單的 來 你看你報告你說我們現在看到美國的藥品有幾種藥精有幾個品項 這麼簡單喔可替代我沒有要問你啊 我要問你的是無替代性或者是可替代性低 但是使用頻率高的有幾個品項有幾張藥證 有哪些用藥 你現在回答我是不是食藥食肺 還是"},{"start":6531.821,"end":6548.393,"text":"食藥署回答我本人的辦公室這裡有寫啦他說除了罕見疾病14張許可證以外所有的適應症的疾病臨床上都有其他藥品可供替代啦所以他現在在歡樂的說他現在在歡樂的都杞人憂天啦"},{"start":6550.555,"end":6559.517,"text":"我立委現在在問的 都恥人憂天 都沒有那個不可替代除了罕見疾病 這是食藥署給我回答的現在健保署來回答 敢真的這樣食藥署回答林淑芬委員辦公室 她說你放心嘛 美國來的除了罕見疾病 每一種藥都有替代性 都沒有問題"},{"start":6575.054,"end":6597.299,"text":"健保署你回答看看跟委員報告就是我們從健保給付的品項裡頭屬於美國產地進來的大概是176項啦這176項裡面又是屬於這個食藥署的必要藥品清單的是72項那72項裡面最多的是抗腫瘤藥物我現在沒有講那個我現在問你說"},{"start":6598.746,"end":6607.074,"text":"無可替代性或替代性很低但是使用頻率高我不是在問你必要藥品清單歌詐食鹽水之論我就跟你說了一生原料短缺 市占不均你盤點給我看 你們也盤點不出來"},{"start":6619.216,"end":6634.366,"text":"現在我告訴你 美國做的 美國進口進來但是我們不用它 不過沒有替代性或是很少其他國家 其他藥廠在做但是使用頻率高的是哪些藥"},{"start":6635.475,"end":6662.338,"text":"你回答我跟委員報告這個不能用使用頻率來講使用頻率最多的這些什麼降血壓啦糖尿病的藥那個都有可替代最重要就是我剛剛提到的抗腫瘤的藥物因為很多都在專利期以內那這個呢使用頻率不是很高但是卻是必要藥品被我們列進來但是你食藥署講說除了罕見疾病都沒有了都可以有替代"},{"start":6663.666,"end":6681.794,"text":"報告委員那我們特別提到我們盤出來裡面因為我們這邊對於藥證可以確立出來美國廠製造的藥證美國來的藥證是有214張那這214張裡面假如是在專利期裡面又是單獨的他的替代性就很低因為只有他有而已對啊有60種其實"},{"start":6682.994,"end":6700.786,"text":"你回答我的 你們今天在這裡答的跟書面給我資料的跟今天報告的數據都不一樣你們 我們當初跟你索取資料說自美國進口 製造成立為美國的藥品和醫材清單你告訴我們說 食藥署告訴我說藥品清單150張要證 今天講214張你的書面報告寫215張 健保署講176項"},{"start":6709.452,"end":6731.949,"text":"報告委員你可誤會了因為它的替代性如果在專利期內的這張有60張它的可替代性幾乎是等於0因為只有它有你在這裡面告訴我只有14張是不可替代其他都有你的公文書在這裡你說只有14張是不可取代其他都有替代14張是罕病"},{"start":6733.435,"end":6746.396,"text":"你的文字我講除了罕見疾病藥品共14張許可證以外其餘適應症疾病於臨床上有其他藥品可供使用"},{"start":6747.386,"end":6763.367,"text":"你的公文書都沒有講到癌症專利都還沒過期謝謝委員這邊可以有機會我們可以補充一下我的意思是說立委所知林農青菜公共好回答給立委在這裡在講又不一樣"},{"start":6764.984,"end":6778.297,"text":"報告委員吼 我們立委的所思真的都很認真昨天 十多點都江署長還打電話給我說他們前署幾乎都在加班他告訴立委說沒問題啦 沒大事啦 除了罕見經營 十四郎今天你說沒夠感情 六十多個郵 六十種的郵啊建保署長是幾種主席我沒有叫他講 他一直說不知道在說什麼 我也聽不懂"},{"start":6790.557,"end":6808.29,"text":"這樣健保署我現在說的是你們每天都退回去了保證你們不會忘記喔前幾天人家受訪時你表示面對關稅的轉變進口藥品確實是有價格上漲的可能但國內缺藥平台已經非常有經驗健保有因應的制度你剛才在這裡自己說沒有缺藥漲價之餘喔"},{"start":6813.564,"end":6828.504,"text":"你受訪跟在裡面你回答你自己就說不一樣啦現在是沒有缺藥但是漲價是有可能但是我們不要我們已經準備好了所以不用太擔心這樣子你剛才回答你以為王育民說沒有缺藥也沒有漲價之餘欸"},{"start":6831.107,"end":6840.934,"text":"那可能有可能 我的觀念裡面的確是有漲價的可能性我講了早幾次 今天早上我講了好幾次說我一直跟你說 我說了從美國進口的無可替代性或替代性使用替代性低 使用頻率高的藥品和醫材喔這個你們去盤點 到底 雖然有缺藥平台但是即使缺藥平台你們有遇過缺藥的經驗但一直以來缺藥的次數都沒有少過"},{"start":6860.629,"end":6882.582,"text":"你哪來的信心覺得有缺藥平台就不會發生缺藥危機有缺藥的經驗也不代表可以克服缺藥的危機對吧所以健保署署長來進口清單清單中進口藥品有沒有這個我剛剛講的無可替代 可替代性高 使用頻率高的藥品和藥材各有幾項"},{"start":6884.462,"end":6885.464,"text":"剛我提到從美國進來的在這個必要藥品裡面那個是72項啦"},{"start":6892.694,"end":6903.883,"text":"阿裡面又以抗腫瘤的藥物 不可替代的那這些都是專利 我剛剛提到抗腫瘤你說72項 阿實藥署說60項欸不不不 不是不是 這裡面有的可以替代裡面有的像那個什麼抗生素啦 你到底不可替代的幾項啦這是必要藥品裡面72項啦阿不是全部都不可替代有些還是可以替代 我在問你不可替代的啦"},{"start":6916.312,"end":6922.236,"text":"不可替代最主要就是那些腫瘤藥啊我們再把它盤點出來讓用藥人讓醫師未來有心理準備吧癌症病患未來可能會欠藥嗎價格大幅上漲嗎這個我們有調整調價的機制"},{"start":6940.19,"end":6960.318,"text":"食藥署署長你們提供的醫材清單不是藥品醫材初步評估各項醫材上有產品或其他療法可替代所以你們還要跟相關醫學會去確認醫材你們從今天的報告然後川普宣布這個4月4號宣布到現在10天了有沒有完成盤點你們要跟醫學會確認到底有沒有醫材是不可替代的盤點完了沒"},{"start":6967.401,"end":6982.031,"text":"跟委員這邊特別報告因為整個醫材使用裡面絕對的所謂必要性的醫材我們有盤了33支必要性的醫材不可避難所以必要性的醫材裡面我們可以看到其中有235張是來自於美國廠的 登記的"},{"start":6986.334,"end":7000.07,"text":"其中有三項必要性的醫材三項必要性的醫材裡面呢 共用有八張在占比是大概是0.018%是屬於所以只有三項而已 所以只有三項然後可能有八張藥證"},{"start":7003.755,"end":7014.442,"text":"所以只有三項我們現在是談他可能沒有辦法替代的絕對的沒辦法替代對第一線裡面謝謝委員這邊提醒你也應該告訴大家第一線的讓他能夠清楚你要讓醫生知道那你要趕快讓使用這醫產的人知道"},{"start":7021.906,"end":7042.02,"text":"那我現在還要講我最後 我其實還有很多但我現在因為時間的關係所以我就不要講那麼多不論是健保署或食藥署你們去盤點出來以後你們有沒有包含癌症的標靶藥物或是類似治療風濕免疫最常使用的生物製劑這些自費品項的藥點在不在你們盤點的清單裡面自費自費沒有盤沒有盤"},{"start":7050.592,"end":7066.299,"text":"我們盤的當然就是以健保給付為主你知道有多少人需要使用這一些東西嗎所以自費的人政府沒有盤點出來你們難道不應該納入嗎那你們真的面對這個關稅的衝擊漲價原料漲價的衝擊連國內學民藥國內藥廠都受到衝擊了更何況從美國的進口的然後自費的沒有盤"},{"start":7076.883,"end":7088.489,"text":"你們真的準備好了嗎現在如果是以標靶要務來看的話我們幾乎都已經納入將近都納入幾戶了啦只是那個幾戶標靶要務將近都納入幾戶幾戶的條件不同啦就是他不是全市一陣子不是啦所以你說的自費指的是我跟你講你知道你賣公共語言來欺騙我們符合資格的納入幾戶不符合資格的也自費再買再用有多少人啊"},{"start":7102.913,"end":7113.94,"text":"有多少人啊你們沒有盤點對這些用藥人應該沒有衝擊而且為什麼還需要自費去用這些生物資訊標靶藥物就是因為要救命啊最急的比人好人還要急的萬一開集青家大餐開這麼多集就是因為要救命然後這一波會不會受到衝擊政府不知道沒有盤點所以"},{"start":7131.846,"end":7151.273,"text":"我們一直在講盤點評估是要談什麼重點為什麼一直提醒你這個是因為這個剛性需求是要救命的救人救命的還有另外一個議題我還來不及講下一次再講你們要真的要認真準備已經講過那只是哪一期用什麼藥其實也都盤點在裡面你今天說的"},{"start":7160.957,"end":7188.718,"text":"要醫材跟他三行癌症的那個只有60項但願如此喔把那些都公佈出來要不要提供給我們讓所有的人都知道用藥癌人用的這醫材人他們要清楚知道自己未來面臨的風險和衝擊是什麼這個只是我今天質詢的第一部分抱歉我還有其他但時間來不及所以就下次再談好謝謝林委謝謝部長來"},{"start":7190.691,"end":7190.771,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7206.828,"end":7215.512,"text":"我請部長,不然部長不會這麼客,時從兩開就好了你先休息一下部長休息一下請時書長他很聰明,不用玩弄阿維也好我們剛才全世界都有一個神經病的川普,不夠大家都氣笑"},{"start":7229.007,"end":7233.529,"text":"無來無去 每天早上進展說一項 吃飯包說一項 睡覺又一項今天還可以說不一樣的"},{"start":7238.383,"end":7265.558,"text":"大家都對他都要洗臉 都沒有意義嘛我講 我們講國內的 先講國內的署長 你現在要跟醫療院所簽約 特款辦法我這段時間觀察齁你跟保定 跟市長來很認真 去弄了很多公務預算進來然後拿了500億左右嘛 今年差不多多了500億不只不只"},{"start":7266.719,"end":7286.297,"text":"我們的那個總額的成長比去年增加530億億但是還有原本去年的總額支應的用公務預算編列110億億然後再加上癌藥基金的50億、癌藥加20億又加了180億億都到位了都到位了所以一共是730億億我感覺你昨天把你10年來要做的工作都在這間要給付完了什麼"},{"start":7292.902,"end":7315.286,"text":"什麼東西欠就說沒關係我現在有錢可以開我現在有錢可以開那上個禮拜質詢的時候我還救了我們醫事室為什麼陳雲委員在門外部立醫院的放射師約聘人員剛剛來報到起薪才三萬多塊三萬多塊喔那你現在說要兩倍"},{"start":7320.883,"end":7342.943,"text":"兩倍是多少?現在兩萬九千多了,兩倍要六萬,有六萬嗎?沒有我媽最喜歡茶,我自己買了,我水、茶、取血取血放射師的薪水差不多四萬五、四萬六,基本薪水然後大小業拿了之後才五萬多塊"},{"start":7343.905,"end":7358.107,"text":"那COVID-19三年每一個月可以拿到一萬塊的津貼因為UGB照片子所以那三年就是說12萬、12萬、12萬、36萬所以現在的放射式也是五、六萬"},{"start":7359.545,"end":7375.33,"text":"所以你說要給人家一份就要六萬塊有的14個師,醫事相關人員,14個師字輩的有困難所以就跳起來了,連王振旭也跳起來了我都不說話,我今天要問你,你現在的態度是什麼"},{"start":7379.776,"end":7407.041,"text":"確實啦 就是說我們今年的預算也比較多也很希望來調整第一線醫護人員的薪資啦所以我們在這個修法裡面希望把它納入大家一起來替第一線人員加薪啦至於說幅度要多少啊倍數怎麼計算啊有沒有這個醫院成績之間的落差我想後面的細節我們都可以再跟大家溝通討論這個只是在草案階段而已診所都嘩嘩叫嘛"},{"start":7407.661,"end":7422.234,"text":"而且我們部長應該感受到基層給他的回饋所以還是要好好的討論討論一下當然我們希望每一個議事人員每一個都領十萬塊我個人覺得從現在開始這兩三年"},{"start":7424.177,"end":7443.437,"text":"醫療院所如果有決議,應該大幅來挑釁醫護人員,因為醫護相關人力是我們的寶貝啦,不然這個人你也是別人擋的。所以我感覺,我眼睛看的差不多就是說,要挑釁,讓他們做得到啦,不然就慘了。"},{"start":7445.459,"end":7459.825,"text":"第二要說的那些福利的,真的我這兩天又接到很多就是像在我們北陰、西陵東那些街坊生小孩現在在騙小孩,現在小孩比較大,在看郵輪、在看國號但是你要叫他回來做負貨攤,沒辦法,他絕對沒辦法,如果叫他做貨攤4點鐘,這樣他沒辦法他還很希望,因為前兩個小孩、前三個小孩,對他來說,一個人的賺錢是不夠的"},{"start":7474.201,"end":7495.827,"text":"所以這個在美國很多啊,美國就是有那個醫管公司啊,人力中介公司,它全部都在登錄下面就一兩百個護理師啊,我很多朋友的太太都在那邊,工作嘛這個很好,收入也不錯,所以這個我等一下算一算應該有五六萬人,保證五六萬人,沒錯"},{"start":7499.108,"end":7516.376,"text":"所以這個醫事相關人力的薪資我是覺得要好好的來研究啦你做補助你跟署長你們兩個有這個委員會有這個管理還有這個機會就要好好來調整啦那如果處理廠職車職應該補助也夠了啦這件比較繁細沒處理多少八百八十萬我看你都沒處理廠啦"},{"start":7527.56,"end":7548.432,"text":"因為環境部長跟我說,讓我去找部長,很難找到,都不想,很厲害。第二個,我們的燃料藥。燃料藥剛剛林淑芬也講了,很多人都講了,我不要再贅述。我們的燃料藥本土開發廠,燃料廠。"},{"start":7550.814,"end":7564.039,"text":"他的製造原料的成本是進口進來的多了40%到50%所以假使我寫的成本你當然也在印度買,也在中國大陸買所以自己要開發,這你要聽手你要給他紋爛,幫他補充,或是小忙幫他補條不然的話這個隨時會打仗,看起來隨時會出問題所以這些原料要長,你要下去盤點"},{"start":7579.944,"end":7598.539,"text":"潘典光對這件事在做,我們就要把他勾勒他要做完之後就不簡單了,因為我們市場太小嘛再來我看到白亞啦,Pfizer啦什麼什麼,里來啦,全部都已經跟川普promise說他們要回去美國設廠這個要投資200億,那個要投資300億,我們不可以真的假啦"},{"start":7605.407,"end":7626.206,"text":"可能會讓我們給川普去送一下真的會到位嗎 我很懷疑那這些 譬如說輝瑞他的廠有在澳大利亞有在馬來西亞 都有去看過這些進來進來台灣就算美國廠的藥還是算澳大利亞來的藥你們現在在盤點的時候我們盤點的話是以他的進口美國製造"},{"start":7632.219,"end":7635.73,"text":"那如果澳大利亞,是澳洲出道的還是馬來西亞,馬來西亞有藏的"},{"start":7637.626,"end":7661.525,"text":"那個我們是看他進來的那個製造地點製造廠啦那個製造廠啦製造廠好所以他的工廠在哪裡你就要送所以你剛才在說的這樣有精確嗎像你美國進來的藥就是那個176項對那個金額好像會有出入啦會不會差不多200億左右啦差不多200億所以也佔了我們"},{"start":7664.989,"end":7670.056,"text":"10%有喔我們大概一年藥費大概在2500億左右所以最後一個問題就是稀產地"},{"start":7672.99,"end":7692.226,"text":"我們昨天一直在講,昨天也在講嘛,好施展地,台南的東西拿來我們家然後這邊轉口賣到美國,MIC變成MIT,會不會這樣我昨天接到一個很大廠的那個醫事商,美國的他說他們不能,他們進到大陸要125%嘛他說他們不能進到台灣來,然後再轉去大陸"},{"start":7698.973,"end":7721.932,"text":"他從美國進來幾乎是零我們這邊去大陸幾乎是零這變成他們在洗我們會不會 這個也有可能所以這個都要很注意好不好我們也很鼓勵在台灣製造啦在台灣製造其實對我們的供應韌性也是可以增強"},{"start":7723.613,"end":7751.501,"text":"十大藥廠世界十大藥廠在20年前都在台灣有設廠現在連一家都沒有全部跑光了為什麼量太少所以就跑到東南亞去跑到中國大陸去這是事實所以一家都沒有現在一家都沒有全部都賣給扁桃藥廠所以這個是知識體大所以跟部長還有署長你們要你們很認真"},{"start":7753.302,"end":7753.502,"text":"請盧委員來做選擇來請部長"},{"start":7777.642,"end":7791.521,"text":"委員好部長好因為前面幾個委員都講到美國的問題了大概這邊還是要提一下民眾的擔憂是剛才講了就是說最受影響就是血液製劑或者是腫瘤製劑跟神經藥品"},{"start":7793.484,"end":7813.053,"text":"那再來我們健保支出的10%上面寫說176項嘛那我想知道說如果真的是增加了關稅的話那我們是不是民眾的負擔使用這些藥品的民眾的負擔增加多少比如說它增加了10%那轉嫁到民眾這邊或者是健保這邊我們有算過一個比例嗎"},{"start":7816.007,"end":7836.178,"text":"有 我們有請健保署去針對他現在的藥物的一個狀況做盤點 可不可以實事掌心跟委員報告 當然我們有掌握這一些藥品的品項啦那未來到底影響會多少 並不知道不過呢 我們在總額裡面有編了一個叫做非預息風險款"},{"start":7837.839,"end":7864.367,"text":"那像去年我們就用在那個輸液上面那我想知道說如果說這些關稅金真正在我們這邊的話我是想知道說一個癌症病人他會增加多少的支出因為我們現在的這個健保裡面有所謂的重大傷病所以癌症的病人基本上都是屬於重大傷病是免部分負擔所以這些是有健保負擔的不會加重這個癌友的負擔好那我知道了"},{"start":7864.867,"end":7891.954,"text":"我剛剛有看到你們的報告裡面說針對我們的罕見疾病增加了20億的一個新藥還有重症的話是增加50億可是我上次有提到一個小朋友就是ITP的部分我想知道說到後續你們有沒有去追蹤或者是去協助解決他的問題就是苗栗的一個原住民小朋友他家境非常清寒家裡有非常多小朋友結果家長每個月的負擔大概3萬塊左右的那個自備藥品"},{"start":7892.774,"end":7918.226,"text":"那我想說 又不列入罕病 又不是重大傷病然後要一直叫這個家庭一直在負擔這個三萬塊每個月三萬塊的一個自費藥品嘛我想 我看到這個二十億增加 五十億增加可是對一個真正看得到 卻用不到的一個原住民家庭我要替他說話 好不好所以這個部分我想 如果就個別來講我想應該要去從中去關心我們這個苗栗的太陽族小朋友"},{"start":7918.866,"end":7924.083,"text":"第二個就是說我們意思原因我剛剛看到的就是剛剛蘇委員講的就兩倍 1.5倍 這個"},{"start":7926.6,"end":7951.562,"text":"你們當初的利益是什麼?是為了要增加我們醫護人員的薪水嗎?對對對,原本也是希望說因為今年的總額的整個成長啊預算都是過去增加很多對,可是這個離職潮有被解決了嗎?目前我們當然想說希望調高薪資是留人的一個很重要的工具啦所以我們就提出這個想法可是你們一推出這個很多人都反彈啊那接下來你們要怎麼辦?"},{"start":7952.646,"end":7977.112,"text":"當然這個是我們的草案啦那個還是會持續的跟大家來溝通那部長也特別昨天已經提到短期來說要解決護理人員離職草是不是應該有邊公務預算讓他們的薪資馬上就增加呢有有有另外也有邊公務預算是嗎有有有 有六十幾億大概什麼時候會到位已經第一波的話理論上應該在四月底五月初就會下去了"},{"start":7977.503,"end":8003.888,"text":"好那我就今天的一個新聞看到個別醫院的總和製度來就教一下這600塊的那個診察費的一個依據或者是說有沒有除了600元以外有沒有其他的不一樣比如說你說就診察費增加到600塊第二個就是說我們的慢性脂肪腺從上個月背到半年第三個是部分負擔可能要調整或是說轉診制度的這個因為我想知道這600元只是單純的600元嗎有沒有別的一個"},{"start":8005.128,"end":8026.782,"text":"因為跟委員報告這個只是還在討論當中主要是針對我們目前在醫院的醫師的診察費不論這個難易啦 時間花多少都是一樣所以就是說診所也要增加然後地區醫院也要增加而不是只有在醫院是600元然後是不是應該是pay for performance而不是pay for service這個部分"},{"start":8027.082,"end":8042.464,"text":"那在這個診所的部分因為這兩個是不同的總額所以我們分開去討論診所的部分因為過去呢有所謂的合理門診量他的概念其實也是這個類似如果說超過50人以後是不是你這個600元也是要遞減是有這樣的計畫嗎"},{"start":8043.505,"end":8053.433,"text":"因為在醫院裡面我們希望朝向醫學中心最後以轉診為主所以不會去用合理的診療這個今年就要實施嗎應該是下半年的時候也就是悶性磁發性會變到半年"},{"start":8058.176,"end":8076.584,"text":"這個都要繼續討論希望能夠延長那按照這個醫師的判斷跟病人的病情那部分負擔的部分能不能就是早點讓國人知道說他以後到醫學中心的部分負擔會是多少會會會好 針對第四個就是說缺藥的問題就是當然是常說是30年來最大的問題"},{"start":8077.324,"end":8098.791,"text":"那我們有建議的議題就是希望是不是把它的期限能夠用場是不是看一下藥品的穩定供應它有一個八大藥業供應協會的建議希望能夠看看我們下一頁是不是能夠從我們的放寬採購藥品的效期來看看來做改進"},{"start":8100.267,"end":8124.642,"text":"好 這個部分部立院醫護會的林執行長剛剛已經回應是不是再跟委員說明一下有關這個校期 各位再報告其實我們是26家部立院其實我們有一個叫做藥品聯標委員會那不只是我們醫院還有全國18個縣市衛生局跟衛生所的聯標用藥那我們都是8個院有沒有可能放寬"},{"start":8125.642,"end":8151.467,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們在所有的體系裡面包含教育部 退輔會 軍方 還有司令他們都是八個月以上那當然這個部分其實考量特別是偏鄉離島剛提到的我們的醫院那另外是衛生局所其實他們藥師人力都非常有限如果說把它降低的話其實會增加他們的一個行政的那個loading所以其實我們也有接到一些醫院的藥師包含那個藥局主任都說如果這樣增加他們的loading會讓他們會覺得是"},{"start":8153.927,"end":8176.826,"text":"壓力增加反而會促成他們離職 要失離職那當然我們還是有考量在這塊裡面如果真的有缺藥我們會有一個機制就是所謂的安全的存量這塊那其實我們在14天裡面如果真的有缺藥我們會再盡量再跟我們的FDA在裡面所謂的庫存的相關的一些所以我這邊才會提出希望能夠放寬它的效期"},{"start":8177.466,"end":8205.385,"text":"是 有好 最後一個問題就是請問部長就是關於偏鄉地區就是我上次一直在提的我們花林縣南區就是玉里鎮附近周圍還有我們海縣就是海岸山脈那邊如果發生心導管需要心導管手術或是洗腎這個部分的盤點有沒有這個量能或者說不管有沒有這個量能應該提供這方面的一個醫療的一個準備那我想知道到底有沒有在規劃或者是有沒有一個時間表"},{"start":8207.513,"end":8212.725,"text":"讓在那個地方的民眾在生活上有一個安全感好 謝謝委員 委員的"},{"start":8214.628,"end":8240.057,"text":"前一陣子有質詢我們義務會其實有去做了解我們在這塊裡面會評估那當然育理醫院是一個精神專科醫院所以他在設置標準裡面是沒有這個所謂的精神科以外的但我們可以思考就是在這個部分裡面其實他們有些慢性疾病比如說洗腎這塊其實我們可以連結旁邊的農民育理醫院這個部分其實我是希望能夠早點因為他畢竟是我們退伏會的醫院"},{"start":8240.757,"end":8259.345,"text":"然後如果說有不利院這邊來協助看看能不能把我們的心臟科的專科醫師能夠留在那裡第二個就是我上次去牡丹鄉的時候遇到一個事情就是說他是在假日發生的一個車禍他的住宅住家會發生的地點剛好在衛生所前面然後結果發生車禍了"},{"start":8260.465,"end":8279.06,"text":"結果一般的民眾會看到救護車明明就在他的眼前可是當下發生的時候是假日所以說衛生所的回應說沒有時機所以救護車不能開那里當要有119來送119在哪裡呢他的距離衛生所的距離要開車28分鐘才會到也就是說這個民眾他發"},{"start":8285.385,"end":8305.809,"text":"發生的當下當然可能是比較嚴重然後家屬在眼睜睜看著救護車然後抱著他的母親就看著他母親慢慢斷氣也就是說在救護車到了以後其實他母親已經呈現O卡的現象了那我現在要提出這個問題就是說明明救護車就在他眼前"},{"start":8306.289,"end":8334.75,"text":"然后卫生所就在他前面可是却没有办法在当下有人去可以开这副车当然那是因为有他的所谓的法律的责任所以我的意思就是希望在偏远地区的救护车如果你有救护车的编制应该就要有人力来提供比如说假日的值班或者说12小时或20小时那个轮子才不造成当地明明有救护车却没有救护车可以用的一个状况"},{"start":8335.41,"end":8341.5,"text":"可以嗎 部長我想我們偏鄉的醫療 真的是我們"},{"start":8342.813,"end":8367.567,"text":"非常希望去把它做好,也是我們在這些年來,從幾十年來我當住院醫師的時候就常常在偏鄉服務,完全了解到偏鄉的一個困難那當然我們也不斷的有醫療網的計畫,還有偏鄉醫療的提升計畫這個部分如果有剛剛您講的這些切動的話,我們一定去了解,盡量來改善"},{"start":8367.847,"end":8373.156,"text":"那就麻煩部長再去多關心一下偏遠地區好謝謝好謝謝盧委員謝謝部長來我們現在休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8405.466,"end":8406.347,"text":"好好好"},{"start":9080.373,"end":9097.136,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請楊耀委員來做詢答謝謝主席 主席我請一下邱部長請部長江署長委員長部長早 署長早"},{"start":9106.912,"end":9130.48,"text":"我們根據經濟部今年1月份的新聞稿指出在113年也是去年我們的醫療器材業出口大概有25.4億美元那出口的地區美國大概就佔了將近三成"},{"start":9132.955,"end":9136.097,"text":"製藥業112年這個兩個年度的數據的年度是不同的112年的出口產值製藥業大概是18億"},{"start":9148.055,"end":9166.013,"text":"美國大概沾了四成所以因為現在受到美國關稅政策的影響除了醫療器材製藥業以外衛福部是不是有盤點其他衛福部主管受到衝擊的產業清單"},{"start":9168.755,"end":9195.294,"text":"有 我們一有這個政策川普宣布這個政策以後我們就衛福部所有司署全部盤點包括連我們的長照的府紀會不會受到怎麼樣的影響我們都站在人民的角度來看看會影響到城市那一個一個都有盤點以及都有請各司署提出一個因應的建議好"},{"start":9196.155,"end":9223.561,"text":"那是不是有跟經濟部等相關機關做聯繫協調相關產業的因應對策有沒有包委員那個因為我們自己的一個盤點以及我們跟我們的各自的產業的了解現在還在盤點中那如果需要跟其他部會做互動的話除了在"},{"start":9225.277,"end":9241.155,"text":"談判小組我們當成一個專業的幕僚提供一些專業的科學的以及我們的狀況給幕僚在那邊可能有彼此的互動以外我們等我們盤點到清楚會再跟經濟部"},{"start":9243.414,"end":9266.346,"text":"來攜手來看看有哪些需要他們來幫忙也就是說現在現在只到盤點的受到衝擊產業的盤點沒有新一步的我們這個盤點已經是先預先修了因為現在還沒有到幾乎還沒有到衛福部的所有的藥品醫材反而"},{"start":9267.446,"end":9272.836,"text":"美國進口給我們還比較多但是我們還是一定要做好準備"},{"start":9275.14,"end":9301.601,"text":"所以因應對策就是你們已經先備足了資料因為美國關稅政策是一個動態的過程所以相關的資料衛福部這邊會先備足謝謝委員的關心我們都需要跨部位因應的時候才不會措手不及當然是 謝謝"},{"start":9303.162,"end":9325.091,"text":"財政部曾經表示過我們的健康食品的進口稅率是30%那他們要延逸分年分階段逐步調降為了要降低我國"},{"start":9327.833,"end":9330.195,"text":"保健食品產業的衝擊經濟部的建議對國內製造團因為國內也有一些保健食品的製造業適度鬆綁國內"},{"start":9342.924,"end":9366.749,"text":"食品管理的相關法規在確保食安的前提下怎麼完善產業經濟環境衛福部這邊有沒有什麼看法我想這是一個一直在談論的議題啦就中間怎麼樣利弊得失當然會做更精密的一個分析那是不是我先"},{"start":9368.829,"end":9375.012,"text":"有關於國內的所謂的保健相關的食品的那整個的產值膠囊定狀的那經濟部盤出來跟我們這邊盤出來的大概是將近400多接近500億"},{"start":9390.18,"end":9413.118,"text":"那由於這樣子的在生產完之後我們銷往美國的量其實只有上百萬美金這樣的量其實相當相當的少可是相對的我們看到所謂的保健食品的這些產線跟我們的製藥的產線GMP的產線其實有時候是平行同一個產面生產"},{"start":9414.079,"end":9438.884,"text":"在關稅在食品那一端我們看到的是反而是希望有機會導引整個台灣的學民的用藥達到自給自足的方向更能夠去滿足那因為我們看到的是這次本身的食品這個保健相關食品的是因為藥物的衝擊下來食品的關稅衝擊下來相對它的利潤如果我們能夠往這邊倒"},{"start":9440.464,"end":9459.816,"text":"那食藥署這邊針對學民藥的發展其實積極的在處理跟我們的東南亞國協達成的GMP廠之間的監管上面的一致性所以我們的學民藥的藥廠它有這個機會產出的學民藥直接在東南亞就可以被認可"},{"start":9460.837,"end":9480.656,"text":"所以目前已經有這樣子的已經完成了這樣的對接除了這以外呢我們在面對這藥物的攻擊的過程中那全世界都面臨這個藥物韌性的議題在歐盟EMA的向下呢也有所謂的歐盟的關鍵用藥的一些法案"},{"start":9481.776,"end":9500.845,"text":"這個法案因為也在食藥署的努力之下跟歐盟這邊一馬做了一些對接之後我們這邊的藥物也有機會能夠直接在那邊成為關鍵用藥裡面被認列因此我們發現這一個學名藥的產線以及它發展的方向"},{"start":9501.505,"end":9522.165,"text":"其實可以更為多元那因為我們的對接讓這樣子的一個產線國內的意願我們這個歐盟的部分呢其實有三家廠商其實非常積極的做鏈接我們希望把這個訊息也跟工協會能夠更討論那我自二月份上任以來其實跟藥品界食品界等等的工協會做了完整的溝通"},{"start":9522.945,"end":9543.402,"text":"也把他們的訴求我們都積極的也把相關的訊息給他們那現在我們持續在做的是我們國內的所謂藥物自給自足公藥的一個基礎的功能底下我們持續在增加我們的藥物韌性也謝謝委員的一些關心 以上說明好 謝謝署長很詳細的說明就是我們的藥物韌性"},{"start":9547.265,"end":9567.013,"text":"不只要安全而且必須要跟國際接軌我們必須要確保國內的廠商可以在國際有競爭力對不對部長我時間的關係所以我最後有一個"},{"start":9567.973,"end":9579.319,"text":"有一個澎湖的問題就讓部長可能也沒有辦法回答答覆就是全國各縣市的早療兒童通報率都在提升"},{"start":9592.54,"end":9621.439,"text":"代表地方政府其實是很積極的在尋找發展遲緩的兒童那這個早期發現 早期治療要避免錯過黃金治癒澎湖縣反而是是早療兒童通報率唯一退步的縣市那我知道澎湖就是評估的量能不足這個第一第二就是澎湖"},{"start":9622.915,"end":9645.319,"text":"有住人的島嶼就有19個所以確實是一件很困難的事情那它的聯絡評估中心也只有一家醫院我這邊建議一下就是你們會後再跟我討論一下可是我還是必須要在這邊講就是說我們"},{"start":9649.502,"end":9674.444,"text":"有沒有辦法透過因為現在澎湖縣有打算澎湖縣政府有打算要成立第二家那這個是一件很困難的事情這個問題在澎湖縣存在很久有沒有可能用演劇醫療的方式來代替副處長有沒有"},{"start":9676.239,"end":9679.79,"text":"因為北一已經有去欺美做過一次"},{"start":9683.75,"end":9708.101,"text":"請護士長報告委員,北醫那個是外展他們就是北醫他去外展,我們給他們有外展的費用那的確澎湖現在想要努力我們昨天也跟澎湖衛生局的局長討論就是說看是部棚或軍棚可以再幫忙成立第二個聯合評估中心那未來的確會在乘坐費還有所謂的評估報告費看是不是偏鄉離島比較特殊的需求會再做一個討論我覺得這個費用"},{"start":9712.583,"end":9732.937,"text":"不多給澎湖一些是真的不行因為它人口實在是散佈在海中太多了啦太多點所以費用的部分我們來想辦法反而比較小勢我覺得是人力"},{"start":9734.437,"end":9756.942,"text":"這問題比較是問題好不好這個麻煩你們待會去做個詳細的研究好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝在這邊做公告等一下帶王振興委員詢答結束之後來處理臨時提案接下來請廖偉祥委員來做詢答"},{"start":9773.688,"end":9775.969,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們邱部長委員好部長好部長第一個我想要請問一下這次這個有關於美國對於關稅的事件然後他其實有提到"},{"start":9794.042,"end":9821.864,"text":"有關於這個非關稅的貿易障礙那它裡面有提到說所謂的這個食品相關的問題那所以在我們的食品安全衛生管理法的第二四條有規定到這個部分就是說在基改食品的標示等等的所以我想要請教一下如果接下來的談判我是不是可以請部長這裡是不是可以宣示不會因為這個事件來犧牲國人的食品安全"},{"start":9822.833,"end":9845.644,"text":"因為不只是這個部分還有包含學校衛生法其實都有提到相關的事情那看起來他除了關稅的部分他就是特別要求這一塊那這也是很重要的一塊但是我在這裡希望部長可以宣示而且也可以告訴國人你不會犧牲我們的這個人民和民眾百姓或是學生的這種食品安全的部分"},{"start":9846.445,"end":9864.112,"text":"好 謝謝委員的隨行我想我們政府以及衛福部就是為人民健康一直日夜在努力的所以我想我們絕對堅持以人民健康維護的為最大的指導原則那至於在各種"},{"start":9865.433,"end":9890.824,"text":"各種政策的擬定當然最重要就是要有科學根據的分析科學分析的一個根據所以部長你等於是宣示說不會犧牲國人的安全在這次的貿民會一切會按照風險的評估跟科學的一個根據來做專業的建議好謝謝那所以部長您是宣示就是不會犧牲國人安全對不對我們絕對站在人民的健康維護"},{"start":9892.004,"end":9917.613,"text":"為最高的原則好謝謝來那部長下一個題目我想要請問一下請教一下我們健康台灣推動委員會在去年的8月22號的時候召開了第一次委員會那部長您當天報告事項的簡報其中有提到優化醫療環境然後確保全民健康十大策略中的第六點也就是檢討健保藥品政策扶植國內的製藥產業"},{"start":9919.522,"end":9946.963,"text":"那另外在報告事項的二是健保永續改革及優化那會議記錄中也提到賴總統自己也提到政府會繼續努力讓台灣的藥品工藝無論是品質或者是供應鏈的韌性都能夠不斷的提升那請教部長這些簡報資料跟賴總統的講話是否還算數還是會如同這次賴總統在福倫社的年會上面說的事後故意拿掉這吃苦當吃補這句話"},{"start":9948.479,"end":9967.584,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心健康台灣的一個推動也敬佩委員這麼了解到我們提到的一些重點那我跟委員報告說你剛剛所提的幾點我們都說到做到包括健保的改革在大家委員們的努力以及行政院的幫忙好 謝謝部長說到做到"},{"start":9969.986,"end":9987.082,"text":"然後有關藥品這個部分我想我們那個健保署馬上擬定兩大政策那部長沒問題我就繼續講這一部分在穩定這個藥品供應鏈的事情上反正你說說都要做到但是本席其實在去年3月的時候就已經曾經在這裡做出組決議"},{"start":9988.183,"end":10007.736,"text":"那當時是主要是為了避免缺藥後來衛福部跟健保署也接受就是修正後納入藥價改革的辦法之中那健保署供你會議其實在8月中就通過了那本席在10月9號質詢的時候也問說何時會預告那結果其實後來是拖到了11月19日衛福部才預告"},{"start":10009.997,"end":10023.868,"text":"然後再來就是1月22日的預告截止後那到現在又過了三個月那這個要價改革也是健保改革中的一個重點之一那當然不僅是健保財務上的考量還有避免缺藥的風險"},{"start":10025.129,"end":10045.364,"text":"那更重要的是在國際跟這些區域情勢不穩定的情況之下其實各國都是注意這個所謂的藥品的穩定供應都是在強化這個部分那剛剛也講到你們在健康台灣政策裡面有提到要鼓勵在台製造國藥國用才能夠避免缺藥危機變成國安風險可是"},{"start":10047.345,"end":10063.255,"text":"這個部分就是拖了很久沒有公告我想要請問到底是什麼原因是因為台灣價值不夠嗎還是賴總統所謂的這個宣誓都是口號呢為什麼這件事情是一拖二拖三拖那在今天的報告當中你們是有提到預計本月會公告"},{"start":10063.815,"end":10091.389,"text":"那4月27日即將要舉辦這個健康台灣的全國論壇請問能否在4月27號之前這個舉辦健康台灣論壇之前公告那我想要提醒一下部長因為這個藥物的給付項目跟支付標準的供你會議作業辦法的第4跟第6條你們今年2月13號其實就預告了那7天後的2月20號就預告終止然後再過15天就正式公告"},{"start":10091.869,"end":10107.454,"text":"所以整個法規其實從預告到公告是不到一個月就公告實行所以如果這些要價改革如果再沒有在4月27號前公告不就是證明你們是有沒有雙標或者是沒有這個好好的執行我想要請問一下"},{"start":10108.154,"end":10132.677,"text":"好 謝謝委員的隨行那我必須要說明一下預告兩個月以後叫1月20左右嘛那其實有不少的意見那這兩個政策是對於未來國內製藥還有我們的產業鏈非常重要這兩個政策也是委員你一直在關心的所以要面面俱到 希望不要說走下去還要改所以我想感謝健保署的同仁可以說是針對這個"},{"start":10134.678,"end":10155.724,"text":"這兩個政策非常的用心在研擬那應該也部長是4月27號以前確定可以公告嗎有說到做到嗎我想很快的健保署就會送到部裡面我們會用最快的速度應該在4月27號以前我們盡量完成自慢在4月底以前會公告"},{"start":10156.324,"end":10172.34,"text":"那部長要拜託你說到做到希望在4.27以前公告不然你健康台灣的時候要講些什麼對不對這個部分就會漏掉我們要講的非常的多當然很多當然很多我相信我相信但是我說這是其中一塊因為這個拖了很久這個的確一定要做因為我先說明一下真的也沒有拖很久"},{"start":10173.922,"end":10193.595,"text":"您剛剛把整個時序弄出來其實那個都是要做很詳盡的討論好沒關係我再問下一題1月20號到現在才有一段時間部長希望就是4月底前說到做到我想署長也說沒問題我知道大家都辛苦了但是希望可以說到做到"},{"start":10194.696,"end":10212.361,"text":"部長這個醫藥品跟醫材的供應鏈穩定性很重要嘛我相信你們都就是拼拼點頭那萬一戰爭發生時藥品的自主這件事情就會變得極度的重要所以我想要請問一下目前衛福部為了供應穩定性有沒有哪些更具體的作為"},{"start":10213.001,"end":10232.281,"text":"到目前為止有編列什麼預算或經費維持這個供應鏈穩定性嗎因為我想問一下我想跟部長說一下像美國呢已經啟動對於藥品跟其原料進口的國安調查對不對那將涵蓋所謂的學名藥非學名藥成品跟生產這些藥物所需要的原料跟關鍵成分"},{"start":10233.522,"end":10243.871,"text":"那部長他們在啟動調查當然是為了現在的關稅嘛要加徵關稅的部分但是在我們國家的部分我們可能要為了避免戰爭風險是不是應該也要進行所謂的這個藥品的國安調查那"},{"start":10249.035,"end":10276.816,"text":"就是除了這個穩定供應鏈的這個量之外這個值也要有韌性所以否則就會發生劣幣趨良幣的情況所以根據我想要講的事情就是第一個是不是應該也要啟動國安調查這第一個第二個就是說我們在2022年這個進出口的統計裡面2022到2023原料要進口國的前五名分別是中國大陸、日本、印度、義大利跟南韓"},{"start":10277.765,"end":10292.742,"text":"那中國大陸的部分都有30億以上那第二名是日本但是是第二名的日本的三倍以上所以政策上是不是也應該要更具體的去鼓勵藥廠尋求原料藥的第二國的供應來源"},{"start":10294.352,"end":10309.651,"text":"是不是應該要這樣子所以大家都知道中國大陸跟印度是原料藥的主要輸出國所以但是當我們如果要減少來自中國大陸的原料藥的時候就必須要先盤點那也應該要更具體的鼓勵這個藥商尋找第二原料藥的供應來源"},{"start":10310.532,"end":10334.128,"text":"那我想要問的就是說第一個剛剛有說要國安調查第二個就是除了口頭的鼓勵之外有沒有更實質的作為啊比如說在藥價上面的給藥價政策上面的給予優惠那讓廠商願意尋求這個原料藥的第二個來源那因為其實今天你們的報告裡面啊是提到的是說建立原料藥的加速審查機制啊"},{"start":10334.528,"end":10355.219,"text":"那我覺得這的確是一個很好的方式沒有錯但是我覺得這個誘因究竟夠不夠所以想要請教部長這部分是不是這兩個題目好謝謝委員那因為這個有關於剛好上有食藥署然後下有健保署由他們檢要的來把你串聯跟委員報告一下好了"},{"start":10357.802,"end":10377.648,"text":"報告委員 針對現在提到的原料藥的部分以及我們藥物的韌性這一段那我們分成平時跟潛在的暫時的會有不一樣的想法我們平時我們在這一次在去年年底盤到二月份已經確立下來有584種的所謂的必要藥品"},{"start":10378.268,"end":10401.426,"text":"那我們針對必要藥品也在這一次美國關稅的議題之下我們特別去盤了一下關稅議題上可能會看到的這些必要的藥品如果針對是美國這個單一個美國來提的話那大概製造在美國大概有214張因為我們盤的是在所謂的許可證的部分那我們剛才也特別提到有60"},{"start":10403.128,"end":10423.647,"text":"這樣裡面呢是屬於真的是完全美國製造的所以我們會讓大家知道我們初步了解這個必要的藥品第一個584種加下來接下來是美國這一次的衝擊底下那第二個部分是針對所謂可潛在的有的暫時的一個必要的藥品那藥物的韌性的部分我們希望在那個瞬間"},{"start":10424.488,"end":10438.447,"text":"我們希望未來有更高強度的機會可能也需要各位委員們的一個協助因為要有很強烈法源的依據如果在暫時有一個徵召的這樣子的一個機會才能夠去讓我們台灣的"},{"start":10440.949,"end":10466.578,"text":"製藥的部分我們有25種是必要的藥品的但是這個部分我主要還是針對說現在我們的原料藥的進口這個大陸的部分大多數來自於中國大陸的部分那是不是應該要更有具體的這個政策去誘引去鼓勵這些去開拓第二來源國我剛剛想要問的是這個那您剛剛講的我都我可以理解喔你說有這個關稅的應對可是其實我的問題是這個"},{"start":10468.038,"end":10490.331,"text":"就接下來原料料這個特定的部分我們知道中國印度其實一直是以價格取勝那國內的原料料它本身的產值我們知道整個的原料料是大概1.75億的出口的一個狀況那我們可以進口的部分是2.3億那它本身產值其實是小的"},{"start":10490.97,"end":10505.921,"text":"那在原料藥它的特殊性是它本身高污染所以我們希望能夠我們也希望會積極的鼓勵能夠在不同的方式對我就是講這個就是要積極的鼓勵是不是不要只是口頭鼓勵你又沒有什麼實質的比如說藥價偵測的作為"},{"start":10507.362,"end":10524.378,"text":"因為我要提醒因為時間關係我要提醒署長因為藥品可能不同於一般的商品嘛所以不太可能說時間到了或是戰爭到了我再去做這個準備我們現在在提早就是因應嘛提早在講的這個政策就是希望可以提早因應讓他們提早有準備第二個原料果"},{"start":10524.958,"end":10552.304,"text":"所以我是希望這個部分應該是要透過政策有更具體的誘因這樣才可以確保提早準備而且確保國人的用藥的健康的權益跟委員報告在這一次我們委員關心的藥品的支付標準修正裡面我們也加了這個如果使用台灣的原料藥的話產地是台灣的原料藥我們藥價加4%另外的譬如說其他部分的來源國有沒有需要再鼓勵"},{"start":10553.726,"end":10567.543,"text":"我們是以在地為優先在地優先嘛那好那在地優先之外如果說在地短時間做不到的情況之下你可能也要去盤點他有沒有其他誘因要從其他國家進來我覺得這部分也也可以請這個署長去研擬一下"},{"start":10570.467,"end":10593.59,"text":"那另外最後一題就是國健署的癌症篩檢是降低癌症死亡率我覺得很重要的關鍵但是並非每一種癌症都適合篩檢或是有篩檢技術那現在公費的篩檢有五種那分別是口腔癌對不對乳癌大腸癌子宮頸癌跟肺癌那當然胃癌是在這個所謂的公費篩檢算是在事半計畫"},{"start":10594.854,"end":10608.132,"text":"研究也有顯示50%到90%的胃癌可以歸因於幽門螺旋桿菌的感染國內20歲以上幽門螺旋桿菌感染的標準化盛行率大概是32%主要當然包含"},{"start":10610.034,"end":10635.074,"text":"經口傳染、飲水食物等等所以其實基本上我們要根絕胃癌就是基本上要根絕幽門螺旋桿菌所以我想要請教部長就是說從這個癌登報告中可以看出107年開始每一年的胃癌都是癌症死亡率的第八名我想要問的是說明年是不是可以我也想要在這裡爭取是不是將胃癌篩檢正式列為第六種公費篩檢"},{"start":10636.135,"end":10656.158,"text":"那現在事辦計畫大概是45到75歲族群那去年是9個縣市共有9個縣市今年是17個縣市參與所以明年全台20個縣市應該都可以納入那我想要請教部長因為行政部門現在在編列明年的預算那公費胃癌的篩檢的費用是否已經編列進去有編列進去好謝謝部長"},{"start":10666.467,"end":10694.732,"text":"剛剛委員跟委員報告的確今年是已經有17個縣市那其實我們各縣市大概都跟他們報告說會在明年全國全國開辦啦對所以就是一樣是45歲到74歲的國人通通可以好謝謝所以跟委員報告其實我們也鼓勵國人自費篩檢所以如果我們是自費篩檢出來吹氣也好或者是糞便的抗原的檢查出來那麼有陽性的那健保也給付這個除菌的這個藥費"},{"start":10696.599,"end":10716.27,"text":"好 謝謝部長我這邊也要爭取也要建議反正有鑒於現在癌症的年輕化的趨勢所以我覺得不僅將這個胃癌列為第六種的癌別的公費篩檢也最好是比照大腸癌補助45到74歲的民眾40歲到44歲具有家族病史的民眾每兩年一次好不好"},{"start":10717.608,"end":10737.304,"text":"好我們檢討不過如果查出來是陽性的話一般來講就會就等於是殺那一次就OK了啦他出鏡的效果很好所以他的聯賭我們可以再討論好先請部長回去再演繹一下我們再演繹謝謝好謝謝六位謝謝部長主長謝謝接下來請王振旭委員來做選答"},{"start":10746.812,"end":10748.838,"text":"謝謝主席我們還是請邱部長"},{"start":10754.877,"end":10783.396,"text":"今天有聽到你那個很完整的報告那我們也知道這次關稅的議題引起這麼大的衝擊美國其實在許可證的部分佔的並不多只有佔了1.86%不過前三大列裡面我們所知道的就是包括人體血液製劑抗腫瘤藥品還有神經系統用藥有一些單價真的是非常高"},{"start":10784.276,"end":10810.654,"text":"所以到底衝擊會如何我們可能還是要小心應應不過我想就其他議題我們就逐一的來跟部長討論請教一下包括這個產業的穩定供應還有房息產地有沒有機會透過這個危機來創造轉機這是我們非常期待一開始我們還是先關心一下世界各國其實都非常挺台灣"},{"start":10811.974,"end":10836.251,"text":"來參與世界衛生大會今年5月19號會在Zenewa舉行那這部分之前部長也接受了媒體的訪問也發表一些準備的部分的一些資訊給大家做參考那這部分不知道部長有沒有要利用這個機會在稍微做一些說明包括世界各國的各個不同的這個領域的"},{"start":10838.032,"end":10849.722,"text":"國家或者是跟我們理念相同的這些地方跟我們加入這個WHA這個大會的一個支持的部分可不可以請部長稍微再說明一下"},{"start":10850.578,"end":10867.057,"text":"好的,非常感謝我們王勝旭委員問這個題目,那也感謝王委員去年參加立委的市導團,真的他的辛苦度不輸我們的衛福部這個叫做行動團"},{"start":10869.299,"end":10889.736,"text":"異位行動團真的非常的辛苦我們共同的目的就是利用那個WHA這個短短的一個禮拜當中怎麼樣去創造這個機會跟各國來做互動所以有明的也有私下的像我們就跟可能有幾十個國家"},{"start":10891.016,"end":10909.201,"text":"衛福部的長官們做雙方的一個互動其實都因為這樣的互動建立了很好的關係這個非常重要當然現在委員去做國會的外交"},{"start":10909.941,"end":10921.382,"text":"也讓瑞士的國會跟其他如果有過去的國會議員有對台灣更多的了解跟支持特別感謝的就是說像去年我們可能有"},{"start":10922.816,"end":10941.825,"text":"近百個來自行政及立法部門專業議會團體智庫協會、意見領袖及公民社會特別像年輕的醫學生又組團過去所以大家共同把WHA把台灣的一個人民照顧的權益"},{"start":10942.925,"end":10963.615,"text":"雖然我們一年365天都在做努力但是在那個時機是我們在日元瓦把它展現出來那裡面也有開不少一個專業的論壇所以我想今年我們雖然經費少了很多但是我們還是一樣希望能夠維持這樣的一個努力的量能"},{"start":10964.971,"end":10988.227,"text":"來幫台灣在國際化上是而且這一次我們前副總統也會去參與的同時也會發表重要的演講我們很期待大家都能夠更了解台灣透過這個管道可以讓全球看到台灣在做相關衛生行政各方面針對民眾健康福祉的一個努力"},{"start":10989.347,"end":11007.554,"text":"我們從總統府到行政院都很重視這樣的一個國際活動不過聽說明年美国就不參加了因為今年還要參加啦所以我覺得我們該做的還是要做因為畢竟很難得的機會我想我們還是"},{"start":11008.934,"end":11031.249,"text":"我們不是說完全WHO的問題而是我們是理念相近國家的一個互動這是一個很難得的機會明年再相機行事再過來就是我們看到今天的報告裡面針對藥品醫材的這個穩定供應的策略就包括這四大項大家已經都討論很多那我們也了解其實除了這些藥品醫材以外"},{"start":11032.15,"end":11056.584,"text":"有兩個部分可能要特別麻煩部長再說明的更清楚一點尤其是針對血液製劑還有疫苗 疫苗剛才都沒有說到這部分有沒有特別要再加強那個疫苗我們當然做好準備而且它都長期 很多都是長期簽約的基本上我們都有去盤點是不是要請那個集管署莊仁祥署長先跟委員報告"},{"start":11057.364,"end":11080.793,"text":"疫苗的事情那有關疫苗的部分其實我們目前其實都是多是長年的合約啦那而且大部分都也大部分都不是美國廠的那另外這個因為我們買公費疫苗其實我們的關稅也都是零啦這個部分這個我們也會嘗試就是說針對多多年的合約然後多家的這個"},{"start":11081.733,"end":11106.038,"text":"和的廠商來一起來來購置這個疫苗所以我們在短暫的這個預期是目前是不會有什麼太大的影響以上是好所以民眾是可以放心不過國產疫苗他對於整體的這些防疫各方面也有他的重要性所以我了解有這樣的方向正在努力我們有成立這個疫苗"},{"start":11108.119,"end":11129.801,"text":"產業推動的一個小組在健康臺灣推動委員會正在執行來扶植我們特別是國內的疫苗的產業保護人民的健康那至於血液製劑是不是容我給江署長有關於我們血液製劑因為有國血國用的一些政策在"},{"start":11130.462,"end":11153.015,"text":"所以我們以目前的狀況特別是在我們的IVIG的部分我們使用的從九成現在是五成是國內的白蛋白的部分也占了一定的比例至於凝血因子的部分因為已經改用基因工程的方式來生產所以在國血國用的狀況特別血漿的部分我們目前是五萬公升的血漿"},{"start":11153.755,"end":11172.12,"text":"那正在找希望找第二個代工廠能夠把它提升到10萬公升的血漿的供給量對於血源的不足的部分我們也修正了捐血的健康標準的部分我們從原來的年齡上限從65歲提升到70歲所以總整的一個政策"},{"start":11172.9,"end":11186.95,"text":"希望我們在國血國用以及國血補充的部分能夠持續的緊緊 以上說明好 有備無犯 我們可以把事情做得更好剛剛我們也聽到其他委員會談到有關於這個"},{"start":11188.331,"end":11212.716,"text":"很多我們的原料要是來自中國有部分來自印度那這部分如果說我們希望能夠有更好的一些防患措施的話我們很擔心會不會有反傾銷或者是大量傾銷的問題就是說他們這次因為有其他的這個關稅議題所以無法銷售他們自己已經產好的這些產品會不會"},{"start":11213.436,"end":11240.031,"text":"透過這樣的傾銷進到台灣造成這個衝擊那這部分有沒有應用措施我想防中國或者防其他的地方來把台灣當成稀產地這個絕對是完全的禁止所以我想經濟部也有監測特別這個新聞報導有特別的來監測啦那不曉得食藥署在這個部分在稀產地這個部分有沒有什麼"},{"start":11241.634,"end":11266.477,"text":"我們針對這中國的藥品的部分我們的所有的用藥都有很清楚要有缺去的所謂的許可證的情況之下才會讓他進來我們的臺灣所以我們在審查的過程中呢是他也製造廠原始的製造廠在哪當作是我們審查最重要的基準我們對於所有的藥廠裡面我們必須要符合PIC GMP的廠而且我們能夠確定茶廠"},{"start":11267.197,"end":11279.505,"text":"准許他輸入才能夠甘給他的許可證所以這部分我們透過這樣的機制之下所以可以確定我們現在的藥物的許可證來源是在哪裡的生產那以上說明"},{"start":11280.596,"end":11300.997,"text":"所以也希望能夠非常緊密的去監測這些藥品的流向再過來我們也理解這個其實就是一個轉機因為如果我們透過好的方式跟美國達成更好的關稅協議的話其實我們能夠引進很多新的生技製藥產業"},{"start":11302.979,"end":11318.331,"text":"變成一個新的供應鏈的好的一個基地這部分不知道未來有沒有什麼規劃或者是可以處理的部分好這個部分健保署可以來補充一下剛剛今天已經談了很多那個"},{"start":11319.861,"end":11341.714,"text":"鼓勵的措施但是應應剛剛您提的要前面一張提的說危機就是轉機我非常敬佩我們委員的高瞻眼足的那因為的確面對挑戰我們怎麼樣除了解決危機以外我們是不是應該尋求創造更紮實的一個的一個工作包括譬如說我們國內的產鏈產業鏈的把它落實讓"},{"start":11347.598,"end":11374.601,"text":"我們就地生產就地行銷來自己可以光榮自己那當然我們也可以再利用這個機會是不是在將來在市場的分散方面也可以尤其在醫藥生技這個部分其實也必須要往這方面來努力當然我們本身對於可能關稅影響的各種狀況我們必須要有各種應應的因素這個我們也都在都已經end了那至於說怎麼樣鼓勵我們"},{"start":11376.67,"end":11396.661,"text":"國內製藥的韌性是不是署署長簡單跟委員報告一下跟委員報告我們從這個短期跟長期來看那短期當然是在我們每年的藥價調整上面對於這個必要藥品品項那麼有國內製造三個品項以下的那麼我們那一年就不會調整它的藥價"},{"start":11397.481,"end":11425.541,"text":"所以就不會有越來越低的情形所以他不需要去跟大家share那個DET超過的部分這個是短期我們今年就已經開始這樣做了那其他的呢還包含鼓勵這個國產新藥所以如果是在全球首發或者是在其他世界上有發行兩年內在台灣製造的那我們也都有特殊的比照台灣首發的要價的那個優惠合價那另外呢也對國內"},{"start":11427.342,"end":11446.381,"text":"製造那麼過專利期那麼前兩張的這個這個學名藥呢我們給他等同於原廠藥的價格對都有實質的鼓勵OK了解那剛剛部長有提到這個生技產業其實我們知道2024年經濟部產業發展署有提出這個2024生技產業的白皮書"},{"start":11450.525,"end":11464.413,"text":"裡面也說了一些相關的發展的類似部長不知道有沒有好去了解、關心包括還有第2、第4、第5點都有提到相關需要麻煩衛護部來做相關應用作為的地方"},{"start":11465.713,"end":11487.523,"text":"我們也理解他也提到了這個所提到政策建議的方向包括人才培育資料利用法源建立資料庫接軌國際資訊還有導入AI強化CDMO等等的這個關鍵原料物資組等等保證可能現在也沒有時間給你再做報告所以我們是不是可以請"},{"start":11489.264,"end":11517.857,"text":"其實裡面給我們相關報告好沒問題跟委員報告一下其實裡面大部分都我們都在進行那我們會給我們進行的狀況會給委員報告是好 最難忘的就是剛剛有提到這些相關包括韌性的如何能夠讓台灣有很好的這個藥品的準備那陳靜惠委員也很關心她也說是不是能夠提供一個清單給大家做參考"},{"start":11518.857,"end":11543.586,"text":"不過我想要提醒的就是說這樣的清單有一些會不會牽扯到國安問題等等所以在提供這個清單的同時是不是要注意一些謝謝委員 專業的鑑解其實的確公告清單是一個有它不適合性除了說國安的問題以外另外就是可能如果你變成"},{"start":11545.209,"end":11548.413,"text":"變成不可期待的話 那要價可能會被調高"},{"start":11549.78,"end":11577.855,"text":"會面臨很大的衝擊,所以我們在這個部分的確要很小心好,謝謝副市長,抱歉出現,交給習竿不會不會,謝謝王委員、謝謝副市長跟委員報告,我們剛剛是有跟大家說明說到王振興委員宣達結束後就來處理臨時提案但是王委員有跟那個圖委員對調,圖委員又跟賴思寶委員對調所以就是賴思寶委員這個追尋完之後我們再來做臨時提案的處理,謝謝"},{"start":11582.692,"end":11587.178,"text":"謝謝主席的體恤喔那麼各位先請有請邱部長來 請部長委員好請教你 我有兩大問題第一大問題就是全台醫院的個別總額是不是上路了"},{"start":11602.459,"end":11616.172,"text":"對 因為什麼時候上路台北區在4月會上路了4月第一季嘛所以是全國上路了全國上路了結果上路來講的話就馬上產生問題台大已經產生問題了台大的處分集它只看80個掛號100個 後面20個幾乎都沒有辦法看這問題已經產生了"},{"start":11627.722,"end":11637.551,"text":"因為這個又跟你的因為你們要配為了要配合達到總額總額的等於是要.95嘛為了要.92.90是.95吧.95嘛因為這個東西啊就有一點朝三暮四朝四暮三的這有點騙社會的感覺喔你.95就讚的啊結果不是啊結果結果一來的話大醫院根本就砍光封了後面就砍掉了啊"},{"start":11653.065,"end":11669.971,"text":"這個情況是已經發生了台大醫院已經發生了主任級的他的一個他的掛號的掛100個 原來看100個因為實施了這個總額醫院的總額入治然後就變成是看80個 剩下20個是怎麼辦"},{"start":11670.982,"end":11694.808,"text":"報告委員 委員真的也是醫師家庭不可能 也了解醫界的環境我在台大看那麼多人的病每次剛好看完走回來跟心臟科教授講說我今天好累喔 我今天看了50個病人其中只有 其中真的可以看他心臟科只需要2 這裡面只有20個其他根本就應該screen在基層醫院 所以那是強迫強迫做好分期的工作 所以如果說"},{"start":11700.309,"end":11714.098,"text":"這第七遍啦所以他30歲沒辦法在他看所以把他搞得把一個心臟科的教授搞得很累來影響到20個可能真正需要做導管心力不整所以這個是過去不好的現象"},{"start":11715.066,"end":11741.354,"text":"我們現在利用這樣的機會如果做區域的整合那也可以做分級的醫療我覺得這是一個非常重要的你這個做的話我不知道了以我們市場機制來講只有一條路嘛你把這個醫學中心的關號會提高了這樣而已大家乖乖的去遞去醫院去醫院以台大醫院農總幾個醫院都有先示不會去提高關號會"},{"start":11742.774,"end":11765.46,"text":"那我們要做的 我想委員也是專家啦我們最重要就是要讓他分級醫療落實我們政府的工作以及所有我們已經叫了十幾十年了都落實不了咧所以要努力所以要想盡辦法如果真的好做的工作也不會我們做了幾十年還在做啦這個跟你的DRG有沒有關係DRG啊DRG喔有一點關係喔"},{"start":11772.873,"end":11776.797,"text":"以診斷來講 門診應該是沒有作用門診跟糖尿病是一個診斷來講是沒有關係的我想慢慢的讓我們好 第二個大的問題這個賴清德總統說到不同工不同酬什麼時候可以開始試試"},{"start":11791.912,"end":11797.097,"text":"我想這個部分健保署做很多賴總統這句話是講對的比如我們這樣講同樣的醫生看感冒的跟看心臟的很複雜看癌症的很複雜解釋的個別幾乎都10m看感冒的幾乎都很接近老鼻水"},{"start":11815.772,"end":11829.968,"text":"可受的啦 基本上來講都是很接近的啊 你們現在看整個是一樣的啊所以賴總統講這句話是對的不同共 不同仇對 你們是不是可以實施我這個一直在努力喔 我想不是 要是告訴我們時間不要啊"},{"start":11831.451,"end":11836.715,"text":"蘇蘇長跟委員報告一樣跟委員報告確實像一個診能夠看到100個表示都很簡單所以那個診察費不用太高可是相對的如果一個病人要看二三十分鐘我們應該要給他高的診察費所以我們要會分成現在正在研議中的那麼下半年就會實施有所謂一般診察費因為我們的程序還要經過專家會議跟共同擬定會議大概什麼時間嗎給我們講一下大概最rough的"},{"start":11861.031,"end":11888.308,"text":"最保守的應該在第三季啦第三季嗎所以明年的等於明年的十月之前今年喔今年的十月之前我們可以落實賴總統所講的不同工不同酬我們是先從診察費那事實上我們今年上半年五月開始就已經先調了這個加護病房的費用急診的那些費用就調了42億了所以其實一直在進行"},{"start":11888.928,"end":11910.984,"text":"那我剛剛提到的是門診在醫院的門診的診察費那麼把它分成一般跟複雜現在不認真做這個事情喔真的到後來找不到醫生喔那個醫生都跑去做美容的喔一天也要多對不對 一樣是醫生喔這辛苦得要死做功德啦因為怎麼內科外科都做功德啦真的 做功德啦"},{"start":11911.644,"end":11921.39,"text":"是不是這樣最後一個小問題是大問題這次川普的關稅我們總統說要從零開始大家就馬上想到什麼關稅其實中華民國最高的關稅是什麼你知道嗎跟你有關係不知道喔30% 第一名30%不是"},{"start":11937.54,"end":11948.963,"text":"跟他叫做其他項目的什麼我查了一下就是什麼進口藥品30%是全國第一名的進口藥品以健康食品不是藥品的進口健康食品"},{"start":11950.069,"end":11956.09,"text":"堅果健康食品是NO.1保健食品為什麼要克這樣你們講話就是要保護國內的健康食品業者為什麼要保護你告訴我跟委員報告一下訂關稅訂多少其實跟食藥署跟衛福部應該是沒有關係是關務署跟產發署因為不是我們訂的是產發署跟財政部訂出來的關稅的"},{"start":11979.955,"end":12003.894,"text":"就是你們管他 鑰匙管他 進口食品你不管嗎進口這個食品是在一般的食品的進口裡面呢 要關稅的部分呢是在那裡 可是不是關稅要管食品進來這個安全性有效性等等是我們在管的可是要定多少關稅的部分其實是不是我們 不是你們定的對 不是我們定的 可是你們可以提供意見啊對 所以我們其實面對這個議題之下就"},{"start":12005.996,"end":12017.144,"text":"提到因為談從零談起應該會往下降所以這些食品保健相關食品的產線跟藥品會重疊所以我們希望有機會導演到生命用藥會變成零這意想不大的因為老實講這個國外的健康食品進來實在太貴了降為零國內的業者應該不會講投入話"},{"start":12031.772,"end":12049.387,"text":"我們希望國內的業者如果能夠製造協名藥的話,能夠盡量他的產線來製造協名藥才能夠就地生產就地來行銷,保障我們的一個產業鏈經果藥有沒有客觀稅?沒有都沒有客觀稅?藥品沒有好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝,那我們繼續來處理臨時提案"},{"start":12060.8,"end":12089.662,"text":"現在有三案請一併宣讀第一案有鑒於美國政府對我國實施對等關稅政策國產製藥產業工協會於4月14日發表聯合聲明呼籲政府應將全國社區藥局與藥廠及藥材廠並為衛福部醫療韌性計劃參與對象之邀請加速健保化療學名藥P4P政策之制定健保藥價要及時反映市場價格做調整"},{"start":12090.803,"end":12117.688,"text":"以扶植學民藥產業發展之具體作為確保台灣藥品供應鏈之韌性綜上所述請衛生福利部於二週內提出書面報告具體說明提案人委員林月琴 劉建國 王振旭第二案有鑒於契約規範藥品驗收入庫時之有效期限需達八個月以上並對未滿八個月效期之藥品逐月扣除3%至6%之價金"},{"start":12119.208,"end":12125.995,"text":"食品藥物管理署架設之西藥供應資訊平台一旦公布缺藥便罰扣藥商採購價格3%等同客與藥品供應商擔當全國藥品之數量管控調度與庫存之責任綜上所述請衛生福利部於一週內提出書面檢討報告"},{"start":12140.529,"end":12167.201,"text":"提案人委員林月琴 劉建國 王振旭第三案建議衛福部應於4月27日前正式公告全民健康保險藥物給付項目及支付標準修正案並持續開展各項醫療健保制度改革以確保國家安全國人醫療健康權益並使健保財務健康達到健保永續等目的提案人委員廖偉祥 陳清輝 盧憲一 蘇清泉宣讀完畢"},{"start":12171.806,"end":12181.134,"text":"好我們請問各位人針對第一案行政大臣有意見這個這個沒有問題啊沒有問題那各位有沒有其他問題本來在所有的討論裡面就有邀請要這個進來討論這沒有問題好那委員有沒有其他來OK"},{"start":12200.643,"end":12207.795,"text":"蛤 可以啦 OK 好沒有議論我們就在案通過接下來第二案來 第二案來來 那個"},{"start":12215.117,"end":12242.339,"text":"好那個有我們有跟那個委員這邊有溝通過就是第五行那邊就是扣除3%或6%那個或6%拿掉因為縣行文不立院是3%那再來就是倒數第五行那個蛋食品藥物那個地方那個蛋就拿掉然後就是請醫院善用食品藥物管理署架設之需要供應資訊平臺"},{"start":12244.24,"end":12271.81,"text":"然後一旦公佈缺藥那在後面那個變罰扣藥商一直到倒數第二行那個據點就是有不盡合理之疑慮那邊刪掉然後改成盡量使用替代用藥這點避免契約罰扣眾上所述到最後一行請衛生福利部於一個月內提出書面檢討報告以上所以有跟委員這邊有溝通過"},{"start":12274.101,"end":12282.329,"text":"好 同意各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有我們就照這樣修正來通過第三案來 選舉機關有沒有意見"},{"start":12291.115,"end":12318.522,"text":"我想廖委員一直期待我們能夠展現成果那我們用最快的我們非常用心的把這兩個政策做了很多的討論希望一公告就真的很大的幫助但是我覺得時間還是要趕那感謝委員的督促那我們就同意在4月27號前來公告好 那各位有沒有其他好 我們那個"},{"start":12319.332,"end":12324.354,"text":"陽瓊議員一併來連署好謝謝那各位有沒有其他意見我們就這樣通過好謝謝好臨時提案已經處理完畢那接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":12348.143,"end":12354.714,"text":"我們就麻煩劉建國委員歡迎謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":12360.792,"end":12382.357,"text":"莊委好部長好部長一早上我都有聆聽你在達沃說文的提出質疑還有一些相關重點的一些回應謝謝基本上都還蠻OK不過我這個請在修正後整理幾個點也請給部長做一些參考請指教"},{"start":12383.297,"end":12389.039,"text":"其實這個川普預告藥品也可能納入關稅的清單在這個當下同時在14日就前天也啟動了調查半導體與半導體製造設備及藥品與藥物原料"},{"start":12405.143,"end":12425.507,"text":"包含成品藥進口對美國國家的安全的影響所以他就會繼續引發各國對進口藥價的上漲的高度緊張這個是必然但是台灣的健保也是高度依賴進口藥物尤其是癌症藥的藥品應該有18次來自美國"},{"start":12430.748,"end":12457.453,"text":"這也是不爭的事實對不對那同時國際藥廠在台灣剛剛已經有講到已經就是沒有直接在這邊投資生產的這個藥廠啦以前還有石家嘛但是講那個說因為台灣的市場很小所以所以就是這樣離開這個我倒很難認同我在這邊就我的理解像新加坡新加坡有些藥廠是這個"},{"start":12461.195,"end":12480.701,"text":"阿斯利康他次之數億美元在新加坡的國內去設廠,按人口、按土地面積,台灣都大過於新加坡了。所以這個等一下我們再來討論,我是先跟部長提醒。那同時國際藥廠,原廠要仰賴進口輸入,那佔健保會的支出高達七成以上。"},{"start":12487.583,"end":12498.549,"text":"然後另外根據經濟部的統計藥品及醫用化學品2023出口值是17.8億那進口值是66億所以藥品貿易的利差高達48.2億的美元我想從這些數據會顯示台灣這個醫藥品依賴進口的程度是非常大的"},{"start":12509.288,"end":12535.381,"text":"這也是一個事實嘛對不對所以部長昨天我接受媒體採訪的時候你的回應是這樣表示全民健康保險要務幾戶項目及支付標準已訂定明確規範未來藥品價格調漲將依照規定進行成本分析並向健保署提出相關申請再依據這個核准結果調整要價不會影響國內藥品進口這是部長的答案嗎"},{"start":12539.398,"end":12566.848,"text":"這不正確這可能要分兩段一個是在福祉國內婚禮在達成的時候有沒有分兩段對我的意思就是說只要進口的有漲價有社道專制的影響當然我們有一個機制來讓他來不要賠本就是能夠在健保就會漲價那當然第二個就是我們在盡量"},{"start":12568.902,"end":12585.12,"text":"剛剛委員也提到嘛,我們盡量來扶植國內的,這又是另外一個很重要的一個政策在努力我只是要再請教說,部長如果達戶這樣是正確的,只不過是分兩段我把它併在一塊,這樣說明是比較"},{"start":12586.414,"end":12613.353,"text":"比較不精準啦,是不是這樣?還是其實你確實就是講這樣嘛對啦,我要講的就是這樣子這個有工會是有提出相關的一些警告啦他們表示今年健保要求正在進行健保要價的政策改革嘛那現在你又遇到美國關稅變革之際是不是會衝擊這個國外藥廠蘇台的意願啊所以到時候不是只有價格的問題"},{"start":12615.013,"end":12619.14,"text":"絕對不是只有價格的問題然後國外的藥廠到底願不願意把藥賣到台灣的問題喔這個你們有沒有評估過"},{"start":12628.589,"end":12651.487,"text":"來跟委員說明一下就是說在我們這一次的這個藥價調整裡面呢對於這個過專利期的我們就是所謂的第二類藥我們會去參考10國的藥價去做藥價的調整我想大家可能在關切這個這些進口商關切的是這一種可是因為他是過了專利期在其他各國都是快速的調整"},{"start":12652.668,"end":12672.283,"text":"藥價來節省藥費那麼對於參考10國我們參考這10國都是比我們GDP高的國家所以我們也不認為說這樣是會強害到台灣的進口商的意願只要是成本不合都可以按照我們支付標準的34條來提出申請來適時的調整"},{"start":12677.267,"end":12692.584,"text":"好,這個是署長你的答覆嘛公會現在有提出三個建言嘛你們看一下,請部長跟署長看一下第一個是由經濟部,其實今天經濟部沒有來是很奇怪一件事情經濟部設立生技外銷統籌窗口那積極協助國內廠商"},{"start":12695.285,"end":12719.337,"text":"那第二項是簡化台灣藥品市場准錄程序經美國歐盟核准處方藥建立簡化縮短台灣食藥署藥品查驗流程加速提升新藥可進國外藥廠輸給醫院那第三是調整健保署藥價改革措施你們怎麼看這樣的建議好我想第一個當然經濟部這個部分我相信是應該有"},{"start":12720.678,"end":12741.517,"text":"有這樣的窗口那當然這個部分我們再跟經濟部來請教那第二項就請食藥署江署長跟委員報告一下蔡委這邊我簡單的說明有關於台灣藥品市場進入的程序裡面特別提到美國的話就是FDA歐盟叫做EMA裡面的核准的處方用藥"},{"start":12742.338,"end":12765.531,"text":"那我們針對處方的用藥其實在國內的審核的機制裡面我們也有一些加速審核的機制如果國外已經審核的部分我們目前其實希望能夠去簡化它能夠達成新藥能夠新的療效國人有機會能夠快速使用到這些先進的用藥的方式這剛剛你都有答悟過我說針對這樣的一個"},{"start":12767.912,"end":12790.182,"text":"對,國會提出的健額對策,你們原則上可以接受吧?這個90天內,剩下不到90天,到時候會有什麼變化?沒有誰抓得準,對不對?因為這個川普的變化太大了,現在當然幕僚給他什麼建立?他或許會聽,也或許不會聽,也或許聽了他又改變"},{"start":12791.488,"end":12794.135,"text":"所以你很難抓個準嘛但是因為這種重要的物資"},{"start":12797.925,"end":12824.204,"text":"我們不能等到缺藥的時候才來做相關的應用那又沒辦法嘛所以我們要相關的預防機制嘛原則上是沒有錯嘛 對不對對啊對於新藥的部分加速對於一般學名藥的部分我們其實覺得它會強力的衝擊到國內的的一些藥廠的發展啦所以要做整體的一些考量以上的說明好 反正我們就納入參考然後積極來做一些應變嘛齁應該是這樣齁我想不只是這個"},{"start":12825.625,"end":12852.882,"text":"現在帶以上的公會發聲,連國內的三大製藥公會都有一些建議也領得外表聲明台灣應該哄笑歐美、日本國家以政策手段引導國產藥品、薰衣藥提升療效跟品質這剛剛特別都有提到建立醫病對國產藥品的信心並鼓勵醫院採購但是不想台灣一年的藥品及醫用化學品進口就高達62億美元"},{"start":12855.423,"end":12882.943,"text":"這額度也蠻大的然後顯示台灣在藥品的戰略物資上它還是嚴重的依賴國外的資源所以因此大家才會如此擔憂美國關稅貿易戰對台灣的藥品市場帶來的衝擊所以我們一定要強化我們自製藥品的能力都要補兌也都有說都有承諾但是我們有什麼樣的一個掀起計畫還是一個事辦計畫還是你這樣到目前為止你們早已經有形成相關的政策"},{"start":12883.383,"end":12907.055,"text":"準備要再推了嗎?有嗎?有,我們即將公告的這兩個政策就是在增加我們的產業鏈的能力即將公告我那次要的能力這樣子有嗎?你們有即將公告然後兩項請說明一下一個是我們健保的藥品、藥價調整辦法還有一個是藥品的支付標準就剩這兩個法規這個就是剛剛說4月27號前要公告的"},{"start":12912.35,"end":12928.702,"text":"這樣就可以讓台灣強化自治藥品的能力所以是剛剛那國內三大製藥公會聯合聲明希望趕快推動的三大公會聯合聲明趕快推動跟台灣要強化自治藥品的能力有關係嗎沒有吧"},{"start":12932.799,"end":12961.545,"text":"有啊,他們最近的一個聯合聲明就是希望那兩個政策趕快來實施不是啊,我們是,我剛剛最後的一點,時間到了啦我是要強化台灣知識藥品的能力我想講這句話這兩個政策是一定有我們不僅要加強在台製造,更需要鼓勵投資生技產業嘛然後再來,因為未來不是搶藥啦"},{"start":12962.901,"end":12980.248,"text":"因為未來不是只有疫道搶藥,我們是應該搶製藥生產線搶製藥生產線嘛,所以在這個疫情的時候就已經發現掌握藥品或是疫苗的國家,他就有話語權嘛我們現在有什麼樣的計畫,現在就來處理這些事情嗎?"},{"start":12983.399,"end":13001.349,"text":"我再跟委員簡單的說明就是我們分成幾段一個是對於台灣首發新藥的優惠價包含他是全球第一個或者是在國外然後兩年內國外上市兩年內到台灣來製造發行我們都有優惠合價另外對於國內製造的品項"},{"start":13004.15,"end":13017.315,"text":"那麼用國內製造的原料藥我們藥價加10%在國內做臨床試驗我們也加10%這個都是鼓勵讓這個在國內來製造會不會就是鼓勵的一種我接受啦前面那個我覺得倒還好"},{"start":13019.398,"end":13040.926,"text":"如果只有這樣這坦白講江蘇長應該來答問才對因為進一步的是在國藥能夠國用國產的其實在學名藥的這個門檻相對的對接的機會大所以我們對於必要藥品的盤點那種已經過了專利期的用藥裡面有三百多種用藥我們其實看過了那我們為了讓國內的藥廠有吸引力所以我們針對東南亞國協之間"},{"start":13046.089,"end":13073.561,"text":"我們的藥廠的PIC GMP的認證我們產的藥就有機會往東南亞銷對於歐盟的所謂關鍵藥品的法案底下我們國內的藥廠的製作因為是PIC GMP也可以對接到那邊的銷售所以整體來講我們針對這一次剛才提到了健康保健相關食品的部分的產線因為是藥廠跟食品廠之間的產線之間的競合那未來因為關稅在"},{"start":13075.261,"end":13097.127,"text":"保健相關食品的一些差異之下我們希望能夠積極的往他導引在這個部分讓他能夠有利可圖讓這些廠商都能夠把台灣的製藥的產線能夠積極的能夠完成現在署長我時間已經超過一些了我剛剛特別提醒部長還有兩位署長我們未來恐怕不是只有搶藥就是搶藥就是搶製藥生產線那台灣成績何時有這麼多的"},{"start":13103.028,"end":13131.988,"text":"這個國外大廠來設廠,那曾幾何時這些大廠都不見了那我們收穫我們的市場很小在講這一話好像滅自己威風啊那我就疲於了新加坡,人家就可以成功去去招到這麼大的藥廠所以我們是不只要能夠自製藥品,也是要能夠吸引國際的藥廠來台來設廠啊,我想這個必須要鬆軟旗下嘛我記得我去年六月五號的時候還在委員會,甚至在院會也都指引過部長說台灣的能力"},{"start":13132.728,"end":13158.932,"text":"我們就有辦法舉辦這個台北國際電腦展我們應該也有能力來舉辦國際AI展智慧展都可以嘛對不對我也不曉得部長什麼時候可以成行是不是在短時間內啦包含這個相關的提升台灣自己製藥的能力招募國際大廠來這邊設廠的相關的一些計畫跟辦法是不是可以提供給委會做參考"},{"start":13159.432,"end":13188.972,"text":"有相關的流程跟計畫都很重要我們重新來檢討來研究報告所以我最後有三個要求第一個請部長看一下沒有強化在台製造藥品同時增加大眾對國產學名藥的信心這個一周內可能要請部長提出報告那與經濟部共同年齡一個月內提出強化國際藥廠在台設廠制醫院及規劃那第三本期就去年已經有要求了今年何時可以舉辦國際醫療AI展智慧展"},{"start":13190.533,"end":13195.177,"text":"也請易中烈提出了好不好好謝謝好謝謝部長好謝謝謝謝劉建國、趙偉的發言謝謝部長跟署長的答詢下一位請楊崇英委員發言"},{"start":13219.114,"end":13221.378,"text":"謝主席 邀請部長請協部長委員好"},{"start":13228.606,"end":13249.825,"text":"那美國總統川普祭出了對等的關稅政策雖然在第一波沒有藥品跟醫材但是關稅的政策它是變化非常的大那外界也預期藥品可能成為下一波加徵關稅的對象更憂心它會衝擊到我們整個台灣的健保用藥的市場"},{"start":13250.906,"end":13254.108,"text":"醫界也擔心在製藥成本上漲導致售價也提高那在這種情況之下會不會導致一波缺藥潮那當然部長你昨天受訪的時候你也提到從美國進口的癌症藥品可能會漲價"},{"start":13271.579,"end":13286.835,"text":"可能會漲價所以在這邊首先來請教部長我們政府要如何的來因應你認為是否有可能會引發的缺藥潮那藥品的這個漲價它是不是就直接會衝擊到我們的這個患者的一個權益請做說明"},{"start":13290.839,"end":13314.922,"text":"好 我先簡略回應 回答那個委員的垂行第一個 因為現在關稅這一波還沒有到我們預要的頻所以目前並沒有直接的影響但是我們必須機安思維所以我們來看看檢討我們目前的機制我們從列必要的清單"},{"start":13316.303,"end":13334.018,"text":"然後有缺藥的平台監測然後如果有漲價的話在健保的部分也有一定的機制來給幾戶更多這樣的一個完整的情況之下目前是沒有缺藥的一個擔心來給目前是沒有來給幾戶更多在健保"},{"start":13334.178,"end":13350.532,"text":"我們依照全民健康保險要務解副項目以及支付的辦法支付的標準喔那麼你們原本喔是在今年的1月20號就已經預告中止但是為什麼到現在還沒公告呢所以在剛剛的這個臨時提案裡頭本席也聽到喔那部長說"},{"start":13355.897,"end":13379.17,"text":"本來應該要該趕快決定的就要決定因為大家現在心很慌健康是不容許打折的所以提案是說希望能夠在4月27號以前正式公告純民健康保險要務給付的項目以及支付的標準這個修正案那是不是會在如期的這個時間來完成"},{"start":13381.671,"end":13387.993,"text":"報告委員 至少讓大家有一個依據啊對 我們這樣的時程 其實我們還是要感佩健保署的同仁收集了所有的意見 然後預告了兩個月以後所以你在1月份就已經預告終止了嘛因為我們必須要把他的意見 一旦公告我們就是要有好的政策來幫助"},{"start":13406.597,"end":13418.803,"text":"當然我們現在目前應該應該整個健保署已經完成了那時辰什麼時候會公佈那它完成的要送到我們衛福部我們立即來送這個流程當然行政部門辛苦要去把它完成4月27號以前就位公告"},{"start":13423.146,"end":13436.482,"text":"確定4月27號以前會公告4月27號以前會來公告全民健康保險要緊負的項目以及支付的標準因為必須先安內"},{"start":13437.683,"end":13459.275,"text":"必須先安慰你至少讓大家能夠了解我們現在重新檢討的這個給付標準跟以及項目到底是什麼至少要讓我們的健保能夠穩定下來讓我們的這個患者都能夠安心這個是非常重要所以我們確定在4月27號以前會來做公告這兩個辦法會公告"},{"start":13462.297,"end":13486.955,"text":"好 謝謝部長那接下來本席要請教那我們安慰了之後那你認為目前是不會有缺藥潮但是如果在關稅啟動的時候大家都很緊張在這樣的情況之下你關稅啟動就陳如寧說的從美國進口的癌症藥一定會漲價那在這樣的情況之下我們要怎麼樣應對"},{"start":13488.476,"end":13517.426,"text":"我們要怎麼應對要保障讓我們的患者的權利不受打折請做說明報告委員現在藥品進到我們台灣是零關稅所以這個現在目前是如此所有的媒體你每天在看他說下一波所以大家就很緊張我們現在一起的只是一起說在整個世界關稅的一個情況是不是它的在美國發生成本貴一點點"},{"start":13518.348,"end":13525.035,"text":"所以他進口會賣貴一點點可是他到台灣還是零關稅嘛所以這個基本上的影響我們是覺得有限當然我們絕對不管有限我們都要盤點我們都盤點一定盤點而且是已經盤點盤點好了盤點好了"},{"start":13539.09,"end":13544.552,"text":"盤點好了也有應對的措施關於它漲價了進來了以目前來講健保是足夠來應對因為昨天你講了從美國進口的這個海洋藥會增加會漲價你現在改口說可能我也聽到有這個可能"},{"start":13562.919,"end":13575.825,"text":"因為現在還沒有發生所以我們當然是加可能有可能就表示你們有在盤點有在應對但是一個結果也就是要不會有缺藥而且目前在我們健保的範疇內不會影響到我們患者的權益我們再怎麼樣都不會影響到患者的權益"},{"start":13588.231,"end":13612.35,"text":"加油接下來本席要跟你討論的也就是我們護理師人員的問題那之前本席有問過你喔總統先生在選舉的時候說兩年內要醫病這個這個這個三班護病筆要入法當然上一次本席跟你討論你也拿出了誠意你說在你的任內會完成到目前為止是否也是如此呢"},{"start":13614.274,"end":13642.302,"text":"應該是總統的任內吧是總統的任內好沒關係我們理清楚就好總統的任內但是依照我們中華民國護理師公會全國聯合會所提出他們幾點的建議第一個他們說希望用公務預算來補資第二個他們希望提升健保的點子確保醫院用於提升護理人員的薪資所以本席要請教這麼長的時間了我們護理人員的薪資有沒有提升"},{"start":13645.681,"end":13671.592,"text":"我想我們政府這邊是用十二大策略譬如說補月班的啦你現在是用這個補助獎勵嗎那個是月班就直接到直接到護理人員的身上當然啊那其他的呢那其他的護病比達到譬如說醫學中心現在達到六成他有很多都拿到獎勵那當然就是給醫院去我們希望他能夠"},{"start":13672.152,"end":13692.414,"text":"多補到護理人員或者給護理人員加薪部長你昨天有沒有看到這個新聞他指出成大醫院因護理人力流失要關閉部分的病房院方預計五月份關病房目前他已經關了四十多床要再關閉三十床左右"},{"start":13693.154,"end":13709.84,"text":"這也顯示出這個護理人員的一個人力的一個流失所以我在這邊建議你目前是用獎勵用補助的方式但是我們還是要朝著路法讓大家都能夠安心"},{"start":13711.021,"end":13730.022,"text":"那你剛剛回答的說是原本總統在選舉的時候他說是兩年內那你現在邱部長告訴我們的是說在總統的任內會完成三班互併筆錄法是不是如此我們會往這個目標現在也都是進行式嘛是不是"},{"start":13730.908,"end":13737.932,"text":"是不是 現在有在推動嗎 有沒有在推動 入法的部分有沒有在推動當然就是說要先獎勵 獎勵先行 然後等溝通差不多有共識你預計溝通共識大概在什麼時間開始推動這個醫療的體系很複雜 我們大大小小的醫院那麼多所以你現在給我們的答案就是說總統任內會完成三班互併比的入法 是不是"},{"start":13760.186,"end":13761.63,"text":"我們會朝這樣來努力啦而且你們現在是溝通中是不是"},{"start":13765.745,"end":13791.165,"text":"因為獎勵先行 那審理先行如果大家覺得這個做得到 便宜也能夠調整而且包括醫學中心區醫院 地區醫院 還有偏鄉等是這個醫療體系所以我們也聽到一個答案就是說有兩年改為任內 就是四年要完成這是您現在部長告訴我們的那最後一個議題也就是川普上任之後他"},{"start":13792.306,"end":13813.067,"text":"上個數小時馬上宣布說這個要退出這個世衛那聯合國也表示美國在會2026年1月22號會退出WHO那過去美國很積極的協助台灣來加入WHO甚至或者是以觀察員的身份來參與WHA但是如果他真的"},{"start":13813.587,"end":13823.158,"text":"如果萬一真的退出的時候 那我方我們要怎麼辦呢我們是否會失去了最主要的這個支持者那我們會怎麼樣"},{"start":13825.795,"end":13847.801,"text":"來努力那我們是不是會加強透過雙邊的合作比如說台美台日台歐盟建立國際醫療的夥伴的關係來提升整個台灣在全球醫療政策的一個影響力請說明好謝謝我想美國對於退出WHO這樣的一個"},{"start":13850.081,"end":13862.81,"text":"一個策略 到底是一個策略或者是暫時的還是永久的 這個我們要小心應應不能說我們發覺 我們就知道不要做了我們照常5月16號WHA開會的時候我們還是照常 議會行動團甚至我們的立委 督導團都還是會去成行那像去年總共有大概"},{"start":13877.06,"end":13886.601,"text":"近百個團體台灣來自海外的華人或是台灣人到那一邊去努力"},{"start":13887.645,"end":13896.488,"text":"那這個一定要去把握這一個禮拜的時間一定要把握這個重要關鍵時刻跟許許多多國家做互動所以怎麼樣建立我們醫療夥伴的關係我想邱部長這個是我們非常關鍵因為台灣的醫療是世界級的我們一定在國際的接軌要好好的去應對去聯繫"},{"start":13908.252,"end":13922.198,"text":"謝謝委員所以肯定我們醫療的努力加油那我們一定會把它在國際運用醫療的國際的力量來連結來增加台灣的能見度感謝委員謝謝好謝謝楊瓊英委員的發言也謝謝部長我們下一位請王煥薇委員發言好謝謝主席我請我們"},{"start":13938.179,"end":13943.668,"text":"部長 邱部長還有我們石崇良石署長"},{"start":13945.535,"end":13968.543,"text":"蘇書長 委員好部長好我先順著剛才楊瓊英委員講的我覺得我們確實不需要跟著川普隨之起舞我覺得WHO WHA這樣的一個國際的這個舞台我們不要放棄所以我覺得剛才那個部長的"},{"start":13969.423,"end":13972.146,"text":"我是覺得是正確的肯定的但是呢針對我們這一次美國要準備對藥品也要可以關稅我們現在雖然不曉得稅率是多少但是我覺得衛福部到現在為止的態度我認為是掩飾太平"},{"start":13989.145,"end":13998.751,"text":"事實上是偏於事實好譬如說在第一時間我們的林靜儀次長他直接講說這就變成衛福部冒號囉無直接衝擊而且反而對台有利我不曉得為什麼次長常常因為我們這個次長是常常在施言的到底對台灣有利什麼到底沒有衝擊什麼"},{"start":14013.2,"end":14017.422,"text":"如果一個次長連功課都不做就直接這樣的粉飾太平這完全是錯誤的態度因為珍珠後面我們不管是我們的醫界我們的藥商我們的代理商我們的藥師大家所反映出來的根本不是沒有衝擊而且對台灣本來就有一些影響為什麼我們今天會有專題報告"},{"start":14039.753,"end":14056.449,"text":"不過我覺得部長你說沒有發生的事情不要擔心我覺得這個態度也是不對因為今天大家都鎖定說未來缺藥會不會是癌症又要會不會是抗生素那對於現在很多的癌症病患病友來說那麼"},{"start":14058.411,"end":14082.058,"text":"他們可能還在服用就是還在療程之中老師說啦 部長你跟他講說還沒有發生的事情不要擔心我如果是癌症病患或者我是他的家屬我會非常非常擔心第一個我會擔心會不會缺藥開玩笑 怎麼會不擔心呢第二我擔心這個藥會不會變得很貴"},{"start":14083.758,"end":14085.579,"text":"第三個我擔心健保的給付夠不夠這都是一般民眾針對這樣的一個衝擊他們會想要問的事情所以部長我還是奉勸我覺得衛福部要直接的跟我們人民說真話這樣的衝擊確實並不操之在我們"},{"start":14105.253,"end":14116.04,"text":"那麼美國發起風來我怎麼曉得他到時候他要課多少關稅但是我覺得這個態度是不對的接下來我想請問一下剛才有特別提到因為對台灣來說我們事實上在藥品的部分我們是逆差我們的貿易逆差是48.2億美元"},{"start":14130.649,"end":14133.053,"text":"因為台灣藥品非常的仰賴從國外進口所以現在包含藥師公會這個理事長也說了說藥廠在台灣的利潤過低所以容易會出現缺藥潮"},{"start":14146.192,"end":14162.483,"text":"那我想請問一下我們的健保署的署長因為你也說你們有去盤點我覺得這是正確的比如說我們對美國進口的藥品的項目有幾項佔我們的健保支出是多少是一成左右"},{"start":14163.203,"end":14169.807,"text":"好所以呢我想請問一下如果在美國針對好藥品課徵關稅而導致我們的進口的用藥的價格提升的話那麼我們健保會完全的吸收嗎我覺得這是很多的病患關心的事情我可以請教署長"},{"start":14187.596,"end":14202.404,"text":"在組長講以前我先謝謝委員的指教其實在川普的關稅宣布以後我們當然所有的衛務部所有的司署都針對他們的業務做了很多的盤點跟應用之道這是正確的"},{"start":14202.984,"end":14225.757,"text":"那我們在缺藥這個部分因為一開始就大家擔心缺藥這會造成一個不好的一個現象因為我們目前的確的一個韌性是相當的夠我們從那個監測部長我請問一下你是不是擔心大家認為會缺藥然後進而造成豚藥你是不是有這個擔心當然我也不希望沒有"},{"start":14226.317,"end":14244.51,"text":"不希望這樣子去做啦所以我的意思有時候他下的標並不是我講的話我的講的話是說我們已經做好準備所以請大家不用擔心這個我先說明一下啦謝謝委員的指教我想我的態度一向都是機安思惟"},{"start":14245.41,"end":14274.68,"text":"對 要居安思維 然後跟民眾說真話絕對是 我們就是照顧民眾的健康嘛當然給民眾的都是最真實的理解但是不要造成無謂的惶恐 這樣也不好我知道 我剛才問部長說你是不是擔心因為擔心大家說缺藥缺藥缺藥我們很多講缺藥之後就會出現囤積嘛但是如果過去也有一些經驗囤積一些貨品的時候我們也應該也有一些非常的手段嘛"},{"start":14275.18,"end":14292.711,"text":"那個委員過去在防疫規劃面也都幫忙我們醫生很多你知道這個大概民眾的安撫給民眾真實的狀況是很重要的事情好那我請問那個署長就是大家擔心未來第一個大家擔心缺藥第二擔心價格過"},{"start":14294.192,"end":14313.627,"text":"提高那第三個那我們未來健保還是不是照常給付也就是說屬於我們健保給付的用藥裡面如果未來因為這一次的這個關稅的關係而調高價格我們的健保藥要怎麼樣因應好跟我們報告謝謝您的關心那我們盤點過在健保給付的14000多項裡頭屬於美國製造的大概是176項金額大概一年大概在200億左右啦"},{"start":14321.593,"end":14340.745,"text":"那這裡面我們再比對的必要品項就是必要藥品的話是72項這72項的健保的申報大概在84億所以這個規模我們大概已經列出來了所以未來如果萬一那麼發生有這個成本上漲那麼藥商他是可以依照我們的這個藥價支付"},{"start":14342.946,"end":14365.819,"text":"標準我們藥品置物標準裡頭的第34條裡面就特別針對罕藥跟這個所謂的特殊藥品就是會沒有可替代性的藥品可以來提這個調升這個藥價所以有這個機制存在至於在費用的部分呢我們在健保的總額裡面特別有一個特別其他部門裡頭有一塊叫做非預期風險的這個這個預算的調控那我們是編了20億"},{"start":14370.602,"end":14383.387,"text":"那當然如果不足的部分 那麼我們會再繼續的爭取那我們目前的健保的安全準備金也還有1600億可以緊急的支應然後再來跟行政院爭取額外的預算所以剛才書長講的重點就是非預期風險你現在這個準備金是20億那所以因為現在行政院不是在盤點整個去因應"},{"start":14392.371,"end":14398.213,"text":"整個的這個對等關稅所造成的衝擊我覺得這部分你們應該報到行政院要給我們一些團性我在這邊的質詢其實最主要的目的就是在我們所有的病患他就是可能這些都是他的長期用藥那麼到時候他如果因為關稅關係也是被預期的這個這些因素的影響"},{"start":14414.56,"end":14439.137,"text":"那麼不要因此而造成我們這些病患沉重的負擔好不好所以這個部分就拜託可能要你們就要報到行政院因為行政院現在可能都是針對外銷廠商的一些紓困嘛好或者勞工的紓困好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王宏偉委員的發言謝謝部長跟署長的答詢我們下一位委員請李彥秀"},{"start":14440.851,"end":14462.547,"text":"李彥秀委員 李彥秀委員 李彥秀委員不在下一位請圖全齊委員圖全齊委員圖全齊委員他改書面質詢所以相關紀錄會列入公報下一位我們請洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱委員 洪孟凱委員洪委員不在我們下一位請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":14468.788,"end":14469.55,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長"},{"start":14475.208,"end":14501.583,"text":"委員好部長好部長這個最近這幾天大家都非常的關心不論是產業或者是我們跟衛福部相關的這個業務大家都關心這個川普對等關稅這個生效之後那雖然還有90天的一個喘息的機會啦那我覺得說衛福部應該針對這部分跟你們相關的這些產業應該也要去關心或者是"},{"start":14502.503,"end":14518.932,"text":"未來會不會影響到我們所有的這個藥品那我首先先請部長就今天大家關心的這個議題就是說未來我們對於我們的藥品或者是我們的這個醫療器材因為"},{"start":14520.012,"end":14547.881,"text":"很多譬如說我們國內自己本身也有做那有很多也是從靠國外國外進來那今天很多委員也會擔心這樣子一個關稅的問題那會不會影響到我們健保的這個用藥的穩定性那我是不是可以請教部長就我們這個藥品跟醫療器材的這個短中長期的發展那會有什麼樣的影響那衛福部針對這部分你們有什麼樣的因應"},{"start":14549.755,"end":14567.025,"text":"好是的我想謝謝委員我們第一時間在關稅的宣布以後我們就馬上衛福部所有的部門就盤點然後他們各個相關的業務裡面包括像疫苗包括藥品醫材生技醫療生技甚至連"},{"start":14568.386,"end":14583.943,"text":"你們都有盤點過我們都有去盤點到到底會對民眾衝擊多少也提出的因應之道如果委員需要這個資料我們也可以提供給委員來參考那至於藥品的一個"},{"start":14585.465,"end":14598.718,"text":"或者是醫療生技的應用之道當然我們最終的目標都希望能夠這也是全球的趨勢能夠就地生產就地行銷以避免這樣關稅的衝擊"},{"start":14600.76,"end":14619.105,"text":"那在對外的話當然分散市場方面也是在醫療生技方面也是相當重要也是他們現在目前在演繹的一個對策啦那至於說進口最重要是我們人民所要用的藥我們是不是讓他充分那或者是第二個建議"},{"start":14621.266,"end":14644.661,"text":"產業鏈讓我們的本土或協名要的產業鏈能夠更加的扎實能夠提升我們在就地生產就地行銷這個部分在食藥署跟健保署這個部分都有相關的鼓勵的一個措施我相信這樣的應用方式就可以在各方面都能夠避免這一次的衝擊就不影響人民的健康造物權益"},{"start":14645.942,"end":14670.114,"text":"好 謝謝 谢谢部長那我想請教就是說之前我們在也聽到就是說很多的這個藥廠這個藥就退出台灣的市場那很多是因為這個健保給付的關係嘛那我想請教就是說其實有很多的品項就是有的是使用替代替代的藥品或者是可能用這個低價"},{"start":14670.874,"end":14692.543,"text":"低價的製品也許醫材可能用比較低價的製品來取代使用那我想請教就是說對於我們之前還沒有這個對等關稅的就有這樣類似一個問題出現那現在川普提出來這個對等關稅那對於我們的這個藥品的穩定性還有未來我們這個醫材"},{"start":14695.939,"end":14713.455,"text":"之前很多是因為健保給付不高啦所以很多就是退出台灣的市場那像這樣子的話衛福部要怎麼去解決這樣的一個問題那另外我想請教就是說如果像中國中國他現在可能"},{"start":14714.031,"end":14735.506,"text":"川普這邊就是說要課一百多趴的這個稅那會不會是有一些劣質的或者是比較低價的或是比較就轉銷到其他國家轉銷到其他國家那台灣可能也是他的這個其中的一個國家之一那我想請教就是說如果有類似的這樣的一個狀況那衛福部要怎麼去因應"},{"start":14736.291,"end":14750.902,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心,所有會到台灣的藥品都是經過食藥室,非常嚴格的審查,而且都有他的藥證等等的,所以這個部分我們會嚴格的來處理。"},{"start":14752.003,"end":14764.287,"text":"那至於說其實我們國際健保在有限的資源裡面我們已經做最大的努力那當然這中間怎麼樣取捨還有都是跟專家做很多的討論那這個部分是不是請時事長來看說我們這個"},{"start":14769.244,"end":14784.478,"text":"是不是有退出市場等等跟我們報告我們也有在盤點這些醫材項目我們醫材大概是幾乎7000多個品項我們有盤但目前真的是中國大陸值的是低於1%非常少"},{"start":14785.038,"end":14804.438,"text":"所以我們現在多數都是國內產品或者是美國大概來的也不少還有歐洲這些國家都是品質上相當都不錯因為醫材我們分兩種一種是包裹式脊腹含鈉在醫療服務項目裡頭"},{"start":14805.999,"end":14812.124,"text":"一種是特別是像一些植入性的像這個支架或者是心臟結粒型這種我們就用特採來給付那特採我們也有它的合價的方式那麼也都會採取市場價的平均來考量所以應該我想請教就是說未來有沒有可能就是說中國這邊的"},{"start":14827.635,"end":14851.061,"text":"醫材也好或者是藥品或者是原料就是可能美國那邊可能他進不去那就轉銷其他國家那台灣也是其中一個那我想請教就是說未來像類似這樣的一個狀況我們要如何再嚴格的把關因為我知道很多的譬如說我們的針筒什麼很多都是可能都是來自中國"},{"start":14853.312,"end":14879.074,"text":"這邊跟委員回應一下就所有的醫材要進入台灣的醫藥的照護的系統都必須經過食藥署我們有一個醫莊組針對每一項的醫材那進一步的做審核審核通過之後才能發給他所謂的許可證許可證才能夠作為進出口進來的一個憑據說的話就是不法的醫材"},{"start":14879.554,"end":14905.923,"text":"所以這部分呢我們每一項這個我們都會嚴格的去把關這個部分那這個部分跟委員進一步的說明以上那另外我想請教就是說我們在全球就是說醫療器材這個產業可能在2027年可能就有原本的這個400億美元會提升到700億美元那其實我們在禮拜一那個劉建國召委有安排"},{"start":14906.483,"end":14911.265,"text":"就是到彰化的那個秀傳醫院的那個微創中心有去看他們這個微創還有他們一些比較他們自己研發的一些醫療器材那其實我覺得這個未來我們台灣的這個醫療產業其實也可以成為另外一個護國神山所以我想請教部長針對這樣子的不論是我們的藥品也好或者是我們所有的醫療器材或者是我們的醫療"},{"start":14937.457,"end":14958.208,"text":"醫療產業可能大家會覺得說台灣的醫療水準非常的高甚至其他國家的人也會希望來台灣這邊可能來醫治那我想請教就是說部長針對這樣子的話我們國家要怎麼去扶植或怎麼去這個那個輔導他們這個走向國際跟國際接軌我相信這些"},{"start":14964.591,"end":14990.49,"text":"他們應該都走在我們政府的前面了只是說我們要怎麼再用政府的力量讓我們這個醫療產業我們不能至於有這麼大的一個商機我們當然也要有一個角色所以我想請教部長未來我們這樣的一個醫療產業你要怎麼去扶植我們這些產業然後變成我們另一座的護國神山"},{"start":14991.492,"end":15001.555,"text":"謝謝委員的催省,我想我們在大概四年前左右,我們共同在衛環委員會努力,讓醫藥生技的經濟部的"},{"start":15007.237,"end":15034.231,"text":"那個等於是獎勵這個辦的一個條例把他從智慧醫療甚至再生醫療等等的這些醫療科技這個部分給他做一個獎勵這個就是很重要的來扶植那也是以這樣的為基礎所以我們可以看到我們現在每次在醫療科技的展真的是越來越龐大但是面對這樣的當然面對未來的挑戰或者競爭我們"},{"start":15037.405,"end":15062.932,"text":"將來可能再也要有一些應用之道啦譬如說我們的出口是不是需要分散市場所以在國內我們絕對是扶植他啦但是我們要讓他有出路所以我們也連結到很多東南亞甚至歐洲讓他們有更有市場那這個部分大概我想再秀傳這個去看他的"},{"start":15063.692,"end":15082.865,"text":"它這個是一個微創的教學中心我們上次我想委員已經去過第二次了那個都會深深的impressive我們台灣的醫療的科技這麼的好醫療的技術那麼的好教了很多國外的學生這個都是我們"},{"start":15084.546,"end":15095.131,"text":"所以像我們上次去訪視的,這是第二次啦秀傳說已經開了四十天,也不是說立法委員會來看就是說我們現在,現在你再試就再去,表示說真的很重視他們的一個醫療科技的發展還是醫療技術的推廣那這個部分我想"},{"start":15107.116,"end":15132.259,"text":"在台灣的政府是一定全力在支持這個部分不曉得兩位有沒有補充委員這邊做特別的補充因為台灣的ICT的產業科技產業非常的進步加上臨床醫療產業所以我們結合了智慧的醫療的產業作為智慧醫療的醫材的部分我們成立智慧醫療的研發的輔導的機制那在我們的"},{"start":15134.061,"end":15147.512,"text":"食藥署這邊呢 持續在推展 那目前進來呢 也有合可的許可證的持續的增加 已經有上百家的一個合可有關於人工智慧醫材的 這部分是我們持續推展的一個部分 以上說明好 先生我們看到這個"},{"start":15151.196,"end":15178.033,"text":"這個川普提出來對等關稅其實我覺得說危機也許是一個轉機也是一個契機啦那我覺得很多企業他是走在我們政府前面的那當然就是說如果要把醫療產業成為另一座護國神山的話應該也是政府要有一些角色來扶植那有很多譬如說現在川普也希望說能夠投資美國那其實如果可以在我們的這個產業醫療產業如果投資美國"},{"start":15180.775,"end":15197.971,"text":"能夠取得他們的這個認證其實應該也可以打開其他國家的市場所以我覺得這也許是一個很好的方式也不一定所以我希望就是說我們衛福部在這一次應該要有一些角色然後扶植我們的這些醫療產業好不好"},{"start":15199.753,"end":15219.419,"text":"不管是方委員剛剛你提的,以及剛剛王成熙委員提的,就是我們危機就是轉機第一就是我們台灣人的追準,台灣人的去拼尤其台灣醫療科技的水準,我們真的要氣魄去把它做,不但是國內做好,也要推導到國際的一個紅艷這樣子好,謝謝謝謝黃學凰委員的發言,也謝謝部長跟署長的回答我們下一位請吳麗華委員發言"},{"start":15237.415,"end":15241.596,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長麻煩邱部長委員好部長好部長我在2023年的12月曾經跟陳培宇委員開了一個記者會那主要的訴求是因為我們有族人廚師那他做了叫做老葉香腸這樣的一個食品在市面上販售"},{"start":15266.405,"end":15287.68,"text":"被人檢舉就收到罰單六萬塊那為什麼要開記者會因為其實我之前在這個更早之前也為了月桃能夠入菜也做過但是我覺得很辛苦因為一個一個個案來然後也不知道要怎麼樣到什麼時候才能夠納入食品安全"},{"start":15288.3,"end":15308.247,"text":"那開罰的依據當然是因為有一個叫食品安全衛生管理法第十五條然後第一項的第九款從未於國內工作飲食且未經證明為無害人體健康所以就不得製造加工販售等等甚至是做贈品也不行"},{"start":15309.807,"end":15319.694,"text":"我很感謝就是多次的關心之後其實我也在2月14號有拿到你們衛福部的回函他有提到說食藥署其實在112年的10月26號曾經有發文"},{"start":15325.237,"end":15349.239,"text":"就是食品如果有違反食安法剛才的第一項第九款他有特別提到說勿僅依食品原料整合查詢平台作為裁罰依據就是蠻人性化那在113年4月30號也曾經重申就是不要將食品原料整合查詢平台作為裁罰的依據可是就是沒辦法嘛"},{"start":15350.08,"end":15365.466,"text":"那甚至是什麼呢像這些有機認證的也很苦惱因為我們看一下這些品項像南瓜嫩芯很好啊然後農糧署有推廣的番杏啊或者紫貝草啊木草芯啊等等等非常的多芋頭梗啊這些都是很好的一個入菜對身體有健康營養"},{"start":15372.469,"end":15391.024,"text":"但是它就是因為沒有列在食品原料整合平台所以它連有機驗證也沒有辦法進行我們看一下你們的食品原料整合平台的查詢系統我以老葉為例輸入進去它會出現未確認安全性尚不得使用之原料"},{"start":15392.024,"end":15419.751,"text":"所以呢很多的key進去甚至連資料都沒有連都零那我們來看一下的一個原因就是因為這個申請作業指引這個所謂的非傳統性食品原料的定義他是提到說台灣境內無實用歷史經驗者然後呢是一個排除條件僅有某特定區域或族群之消費者使用經驗他是被排除的他是有歧視性的一個意思所以呢"},{"start":15420.531,"end":15434.519,"text":"經過反應之後也很感謝這一次出來的一個草案114年3月13號有你們有修正把非傳統性食品原料已經改成新興食品原料安全性評估作業原則"},{"start":15435.76,"end":15452.234,"text":"那目前是在預告期間但是呢就是有把那個某特定區域族群我剛剛講那個比較歧視性的排除他現在呢已經把它就是改為一個名稱叫新興食品原料但是這個當中第一個他是要1999年12月31日以前"},{"start":15455.316,"end":15477.508,"text":"也就是25年前了那為什麼要這樣我是不太了解那但是這個沒有關係但是我比較在意的是你食用方式與傳統食用經驗不同者那都是創意料理啊那創意料理怎麼辦因為你們裡面有規定例如限定要用先煮還規定說要怎麼煮所以那個創意料理怎麼辦"},{"start":15478.288,"end":15501.218,"text":"那另外是說無足夠安全實用經驗但是我之前就是一直提因為你們這個之前的作業指引申請你們都說是要收集國際間就是國際的期刊的研究資料可是你們的國際期刊大多為歐美日啊問題我們是南島民族啊你們有沒有採用南島民族的實用經驗"},{"start":15502.478,"end":15530.479,"text":"你們好像沒有採納那國內的研究算不算數像這個PPT上面的這是國內的野菜學校一個老師叫吳雪月你看她出版的書啊那我們來翻譯一下喔她的書喔不但有實用經驗還有研究還有食譜喔我們來Key in進去木鱉子共有零筆搜尋結果它裡面有一道叫做紙被草搜尋進去零筆搜尋結果這些都不合法"},{"start":15531.34,"end":15539.927,"text":"都必須要收到罰單都不能推廣所以呢更麻煩這一途走不動的時候是要做什麼呢要做"},{"start":15541.381,"end":15569.141,"text":"進行一 90天餵食毒性試驗二 基因毒性試驗三 致肌畸形試驗那誰來做試驗而且經費很貴每一項需要500萬那我們這樣一項一項各個急迫曠日費時又要經費龐大如果要走這一圖根本誰有辦法哪一個廚師有辦法哪一個公司有辦法所以這個部分我還是希望就是再一次訴求"},{"start":15569.801,"end":15588.551,"text":"因為你們是3月到5月預告三個月嘛目前正在預告期間那我是希望說我們衛福部跟農業部跟園民會是不是應該全面的來重新盤點這些食品原料整合查詢平台然後希望能夠納入各民族的食用經驗啦"},{"start":15589.591,"end":15608.177,"text":"那第二個就是說希望這個部分能夠參採國內研究跟南島地區的實用經驗來認定原住民的傳統食材那請教一下部長這樣可以嗎謝謝委員這麼重要的一個我確定能真的非常感動的一個"},{"start":15610.206,"end":15621.198,"text":"催省跟訴求這個部分其實我們一直在在針對這樣的一個方向在一直都在前進中那是比較具體的現在做法是不行時要數江署長好謝謝謝謝署長謝謝委員這邊做一個補充"},{"start":15625.242,"end":15648.169,"text":"我們針對所謂原住民食材我們其實不只是原住民其實不同的譬如說客家的 閩南的等等不管任何一種我們是尊重原型的食材這件事情其實沒有什麼問題的這件事情特別提到跨部會的部分我們其實直接的收集跟各部會之間的協作我們會持續的進進"},{"start":15649.269,"end":15663.268,"text":"第三個是特別提到的我們在食品原料整合平台裡面查詢的特別特別提它不是正念表列它其實在食物裡面有一個很重要的原則叫做GRASSGenerally recognized as safe就是整體來"},{"start":15664.529,"end":15686.892,"text":"我們前輩前輩一直傳下來都算是安全的我知道所以在這種前提之下我們特別特別強調不以正面表列不是說以上面沒有的就成為裁罰但是地方政府搞不清楚就是會開放這部分我們會特別特別的就要加強的就這樣子宣布所以我希望能夠改善你們的那個平台輸入的那個平台"},{"start":15687.492,"end":15710.928,"text":"我們在這個部分會把更多的資訊能夠導入以上謝謝主長那再給我一分鐘就是還有一個我很關心的問題就是謝謝部長因為我長期以來其實我家是沒有洗腎患者我們親戚間也沒有但是我在原鄉部落我很心疼這些洗腎患者因為他們很辛苦根本沒有辦法找到正職"},{"start":15712.253,"end":15726.301,"text":"然後呢會變成家裡的依賴人口很辛苦所以我一直很關心的是他們有一些是居住在深山我以司馬庫斯來講他要到竹東他最近的就是竹東要開車三個小時"},{"start":15727.822,"end":15750.175,"text":"然後再加上坐的時間跟回來的時間一整天很辛苦 舟車勞頓所以我一直很關心說可不可以怎麼樣去幫助他們那園民會那邊很謝謝他們有做安心上工就是讓他們可以在鄉裡面部落裡面做一些簡單的工作那衛福部這邊我也很感謝因為我有看到你們說要把"},{"start":15751.536,"end":15768.447,"text":"居家血月透析要納入健保給付了而且會在最快5月上路我非常的高興肯定但是我很擔心我們很多原鄉的病人看得到吃不到用不到為什麼因為他的要求很高病人及家屬要經過8到12週的訓練"},{"start":15771.529,"end":15799.307,"text":"那當然我覺得訓練是一定要的而且那些水用的水啊等等應該都需要規格很高這個我都知道但是我在這個地方是說可不可以把好事做盡是不是可以考量有一些特別偏遠的像納瑪夏像這種司馬庫斯這種特別遠的其實就可以在衛生所有衛生所他們有正式的場域有合格的護理人員等等讓他們能夠就近部長您覺得如何"},{"start":15800.339,"end":15825.065,"text":"我覺得這個方向是值得研議的啦因為我以前多年來也負責新竹縣的醫療像竹東那邊提供的像司馬庫斯各方面的那個都真的我的朋友在竹東服務常常要仿仿是一家第二家就要過另外一個山頭所以表示說這個真的醫療資源是相當的辛苦"},{"start":15825.905,"end":15850.552,"text":"那相關的一個當然要我們怎麼樣去符合醫療法然後在健保上面給他鼓勵這部分那個時事長你有沒有要補充的好 謝謝跟委員說明因為這個居家透析這件事情是全球的趨勢這個對剛剛您提到的對民眾的便利性還有他這個透析的舒適度其實是比較高的"},{"start":15851.372,"end":15871.799,"text":"但是我們現在開放的是在家裡面至於在衛生所實施等於是說他家裡面沒有人然後他就必須要到衛生所來做那因為衛生所是屬於醫療機構那他有一些設置標準的要求所以能不能夠做透析我想我們來研究看看可不可以在兩個星期內做一個報告可以嗎"},{"start":15872.719,"end":15876.723,"text":"好 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝部長好 謝謝吳立老委員的發言也謝謝部長跟署長的答詢我們下一位請葉元之委員發言麻煩請部長 謝謝請邱部長"},{"start":15902.952,"end":15921.237,"text":"委員好部長好因為我接觸到非常多藥師還有一些病有一些會擔心自己買不到藥的病人他還是很擔心說會因為川普關稅戰的因素造成未來缺藥我看到部長這兩天都一直在信心喊話"},{"start":15922.037,"end":15948.909,"text":"比如包括像癌症包括像其他的藥都不會缺啦你是說不一定發生的事情大家不用先擔心啦即便是有缺藥也都是會做好準備可是大家還是很擔心為什麼呢因為我們衛福部在年初的時候就已經訂了新藥的基準價嘛那現在美國的藥會上漲這個是大家可以預期的為什麼呢因為他們現在美中在關稅戰那美國的藥很多原料是來自於中國跟印度"},{"start":15949.485,"end":15966.994,"text":"那如果中國的藥的原料進到美國去成本上升那當然它製藥的價格就會提高那提高之後來台灣那因為我們年初就已經訂了藥的基準嘛所以如果假設我們沒有辦法去買這個藥就缺藥啦就會造成缺藥"},{"start":15967.734,"end":15989.01,"text":"那即便是衛福部這邊有做出因應方案根據過去缺藥的經驗往往藥商都是提供給有合約的大型醫院然後社區診所就拿不到藥所以過去很多次缺藥其實都是這樣的情形所以我們不知道因為部長現在都席至如今對於這個事情都席至如今都說有因應但是大家都不知道方案"},{"start":15989.81,"end":15998.597,"text":"所以可不可以如果你認為你已經準備好了可不可以很清楚的告訴大家你現在所做的準備到底是什麼為什麼台灣不會面臨到缺藥的危機"},{"start":16002.679,"end":16026.321,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心 這的確是非常重要當然最重要就是要盤點現在的狀況那等一下食藥署市長再報告盤點的狀況那我們過去缺藥的狀況的因應也不是最近其實也是長久以來都一直設立一個機制我們從列必要的一個藥品清單這些都要如果說"},{"start":16027.222,"end":16049.441,"text":"不夠可能六個月前就要來通知來處理那另外另外一個當然我們有缺藥的平台如果有任何問題不要不希望讓所有的醫療院所剛剛你講的包括診所都有一個反應這本來都一直有那在健保的一個局部裡面其實也不是說年初定了以後就就沒辦法調整啦他如果有改變"},{"start":16050.462,"end":16056.814,"text":"成本提高其實就可以把他的藥商可以來申請那這個部分的機制也都順暢所以這個部分"},{"start":16059.699,"end":16083.347,"text":"這是大概我們這樣的一個機制過去來應應各種缺藥的狀況這是可能啦但是所以有時候會發生那是因為各種原因我們都會去解決有時候是說要拍電影就是要想想啊有些廠商不要不想做這樣子所以這也是一個問題啊你不可能叫廠商做肥本的生意所以這個部分也都是一個問題所以你們假如說藝術這怎麼處理呢這當然所以剛剛"},{"start":16087.528,"end":16095.752,"text":"我跟時事長都一直在已經講過跟大家報告過好幾次我們將有兩個辦法將會在4月27號以前來公告嘛那個就是扶植我們國內的製藥我現在不是問國內製藥我們先針對這個問題回答啦因為大家擔心的是缺藥問題缺藥你是要說缺國內的藥還是說缺國際的"},{"start":16112.521,"end":16134.751,"text":"我記得嘛我剛講了嘛就是說美國關稅因為他比如說他美中貿易大戰嘛美國的藥他的成本提高嘛提高之後那我們對藥價有控制嘛那可能就沒有辦法買嘛沒有辦法買就會缺藥那即便是要供應也是供應給大型醫院嘛所以社區醫院跟診所或者是社區藥局會擔心嘛現在是問題在這裡嘛"},{"start":16136.132,"end":16163.422,"text":"而且因為剛剛部長你提到的一些方法並沒有過去曾經並沒有面對到類似這樣的大型的突發事件因為這是一個比較大型的突發事件美國川普他忽然間宣布藥的關稅漲多少就是多少他忽然宣布多少就是多少你剛剛說缺藥的監測是六個月半年你的半年的監測可能沒有辦法應付他忽然出現的突發事件"},{"start":16164.102,"end":16171.185,"text":"所以你不能用過去的經驗來來沙盤推演未來可能遇見的狀況我現在是提醒這件事關稅進口到台灣是零關稅啦所以我們會預期它會增加是因為美國的原料美國的藥本身變貴了嘛我們就算零關稅它的藥還是變貴啦這個量是會多少那是哪一種種類我們都已經盤點"},{"start":16186.85,"end":16201.168,"text":"那盤點以後當然我們就會去應應嘛不是啦總之讓人們有需要我問你一個問題啦你現在你能夠預測說到時候川普他對美國對中國的要的關稅他會提高多少你可以預測這件事嗎"},{"start":16202.059,"end":16217.799,"text":"他們現在講的全部的對等關稅是100多%欸那你今天美國的藥跟中國進原料他的成本是提高很多欸不是你想的這樣欸那他的藥的成本提高那麼多以後台灣這邊編的藥價就沒有辦法購買嘛沒辦法購買就會缺藥嘛"},{"start":16220.703,"end":16246.454,"text":"那你現在你剛剛講一堆機制都是過去的經驗嘛我現在問的是說你有沒有針對這個關稅可能會造成的影響你有做因應啊因為你現在講的都是過去的機制比如說藥缺藥用六個月去監測或什麼之類平台或是你現在是如果假設藥變非常貴你是會用補助還是怎麼樣還是說健保之外要叫那些病友自費你的方案到底是什麼嘛"},{"start":16247.711,"end":16266.079,"text":"我們基本上那個這個因為你講的很模糊嘛對 你的方案到底是什麼還是說如果說您不清楚的話請處長回答還可以方案就是說如果成本成本提高我們健保本來就有機制來幾戶多那我們也有準備剛剛處長有提我們有那個風險基金"},{"start":16271.261,"end":16297.407,"text":"會一起風險的基金來補這個那另外我們還有安全準備基金所以這個部分都是可以來所以意思是什麼意思是說比如美國的藥它變高了然後第一個你會去調整調漲藥價基準是不是讓那些代理商可以買到比較貴的藥那病友就要花比較多錢去買這個藥不是這個藥都是健保給付健保通通會健保給付然後會補貼"},{"start":16300.84,"end":16322.468,"text":"全部都健保給付自費都不會受影響跟委員報告因為這些藥品裡面我們剛剛盤點過在美國以美國製造的為例的話72項的必要藥品裡頭大概有24項是癌藥那癌藥呢在我們目前是屬於重大傷病所以是不用部分負擔等於健保全部cover了"},{"start":16322.768,"end":16329.073,"text":"健保會宣布哈佛然後你們確定就是藥價基準會提高絕對不會因為藥品支付標準34條來調整絕對不會因為美國的藥的成本變高之後然後讓我們的買不到藥沒有藥價絕對不會"},{"start":16339.142,"end":16354.85,"text":"所以你認為你們在那邊確定說不會有缺藥的標準不會有缺藥確定如果這個是全球性的原料不足而缺藥那當然我們沒有辦法如果是價格的問題我先講價格的問題所以好啦 魏浦浦在這邊有做出保證絕對不會因為價格的關係"},{"start":16357.891,"end":16382.891,"text":"第二個我再問一個簡單問一個議題啦因為這個滿嚴重的跟器官捐贈有關最近很多民進黨的人在網路上帶風向我想請衛福部做一個嚴正的澄清下一頁他們的邏輯是這樣啦就是說以來有一個羅東的不愛醫院因為他的孫女嫁給了薄瓜瓜薄熙來的兒子"},{"start":16383.769,"end":16409.606,"text":"然後呢好像這個羅東醫院就跟中國大陸有連結啦然後剛好羅東醫院又跟北醫有做一個器官捐贈的平台然後呢再加上剛好陳玉珍委員他們有推一個離島建設條例裡面有說要引進外國資源來解決離島的醫療問題其實外國引進外國資源不包括中國大陸嘛因為按照我們中華民國憲法外國就不包括中國大陸但是"},{"start":16410.447,"end":16436.35,"text":"民進黨的人就做一個連結就說你看宜蘭羅東醫院搞這個東西然後就有中國醫生進來中國醫生進來之後呢會不會我們的器官就移植到中國去這幾天在網路上討論很熱烈然後有一個曾經代表民進黨選過立委的一個學者他就說他收到很多媽媽的憂心都很害怕他的小朋友的器官被摘掉"},{"start":16437.355,"end":16447.667,"text":"我想問部長我們現在台灣包括羅東醫院包括北醫有在做這種事嗎會把我們的器官弄到中國去嗎有這種事嗎"},{"start":16450.017,"end":16474.995,"text":"我們的一個器官的移植的辦法相當的嚴格而且現在都是AI在做 你怎麼可能 不可能嘛但是你知道他們在網路上帶這種風向會造成什麼結果嗎你知道多少醫護人員他要勸說家屬把器官捐贈出來其實要花很多的心力因為捐贈器官其實是救人的包括賴清德總統在2015年都曾經宣導過請大家捐贈器官"},{"start":16476.036,"end":16502.833,"text":"我認識的一個朋友他從小心臟不好爸媽都已經簽了急救的放棄書了後來因為等到一顆心臟重獲新生所以很多人其實在等別人捐器官在重獲新生結果最近居然為了搞政治在網路上帶這種風向請部長嚴正的斥責這樣的行為我覺得是對醫護人員很大的打擊而且是對這些等器官的病人是很大的傷害"},{"start":16503.573,"end":16529.063,"text":"要搞政治可以啊 為什麼要去傷害醫護咧為什麼要傷害大家健康呢作為健康主管機關的衛福部部長你看到這樣的言論你可以接受嗎我想我們都不能做沒有根據的一種傳言或者論述啦那這第一個 這樣是不好的那第二個 那個我們台灣的一個器官的管理是相當的嚴格嘛 跟中國有關係嗎"},{"start":16530.592,"end":16553.528,"text":"沒有關係宜蘭羅東醫院跟北醫有在跟中國搞什麼器官捐贈嗎?或器官移植有沒有?北醫有嗎?北醫以前陳時中部長都是北醫出來的北醫有搞這種事嗎?有嗎?在我們的ANGLE管理之下應該不會發生不可能的事嘛我希望衛福部可以去查這些假消息好不好"},{"start":16554.926,"end":16580.964,"text":"他在破壞我們好不容易建立的制度啦影響到衛福部我希望衛福部去查這個事啊是真的很不可取啦好不好部長可以去查嗎網路上現在超多在帶這個風向請拿出破例出來叫他們不要破壞我們醫療體系啦可以嗎幫北醫幫宜蘭羅東博愛醫院幫所有辛苦的醫護人員討個公道也幫我們病人"},{"start":16582.436,"end":16587.9,"text":"幫我們的病人努力維繫他們的健康可以嗎好 我們一起往這方面來努力 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳穎委員來做懸導"},{"start":16616.694,"end":16639.404,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請衛福部長請 部長委員好部長好 之前呢我跟莊瑞雄委員有積極處理這個台東馬街醫護宿舍改建的事情那在這邊也非常感謝部長大力的支持真的是功德一見創全力支持好 謝謝"},{"start":16642.786,"end":16661.683,"text":"但是我想在這個過程當中我們跟院方有很多的對談那特別就是馬街的這個王院長他有跟我提到一件事就是說他在台東服務30年那看這個就是說來來去去的這個醫護人員太多了"},{"start":16662.344,"end":16689,"text":"那很多就是政府希望在這個補充偏鄉醫療資源的政策往往沒有辦法實際留住這個偏鄉的醫護人才因為很多有時候政策的這些辦法沒有政策沒有辦法到位就像之前我有提過就是偏鄉的這個醫院住院的護理偏鄉醫院住院護理費根本是沒有反映到這個護理師的所得那"},{"start":16690.54,"end":16706.167,"text":"很多的偏鄉的醫師為什麼留不住因為在偏鄉醫院看診的收入幾乎都是全部要列入所得課稅如果是在西部地區開診所"},{"start":16707.527,"end":16731.853,"text":"那这些医生的这个医疗收入有八成他是可以被认列在这个成本里面所以很多偏乡的医师最后呢干脆就到西部自己去开诊所也不会留在偏乡那因为同样的收入他去开诊所要缴的税相对是可以少掉许多特别"},{"start":16732.873,"end":16759.951,"text":"这个王院长还有跟我提到一个建议那本席这样听了也觉得非常的不错我想这样这个意见这个样的一个建议是绝对可以直接让偏乡的医护受惠然后我们政府也不用再编列什么补助而且可以直接反映到这个偏乡医护的身上就是我们来规划偏乡医护税制的优惠"},{"start":16760.831,"end":16780.681,"text":"好那增加這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除額部長您也是醫師我這樣的建議我想相信部長應該很有感那麼我們針對這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除額呢也跟這個也會同這個衛福部跟財政部一起開過會"},{"start":16782.802,"end":16800.531,"text":"但是我要提醒就是說這件事情需要這個目的事業主管機關來發起財政部是不會主動幫你們提出這樣子的一個方案所以這件事情是不是部長可以由衛福部盡快來研議提出好我想"},{"start":16805.858,"end":16831.511,"text":"協助那個偏鄉醫療的人力是我們非常重要的工作跟目標啦用任何的方法能夠把它留出來我們都一定當然要合乎法規 合乎規定的方法或者創造更多的計畫包括譬如說醫中計畫啦 各種計畫但是如果實行到一段時間覺得那些計畫好像王院長還會覺得不夠"},{"start":16834.653,"end":16848.378,"text":"我想這個也不是王院長一個人王院長在那邊服務很久他也很瞭解像馬捷醫院要把人到那邊真的是非常的"},{"start":16849.418,"end":16876.578,"text":"對 我們也不要離題太多啦就是針對這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除了的部分是不是衛福部可以盡快來演繹好 我們盡快來演繹好 那另外就是說在討論的過程也有講到我們有提到幾個問題就是說這個醫院的適用對象你們提到這個偏鄉醫院的認定通常都是山地離島地區的醫院那或者是醫療資源缺乏地區醫院"},{"start":16877.939,"end":16893.447,"text":"可是用兩個框架下去看我們去看花蓮的慈濟或者是台東幾家大的醫院全部都是被排除在外"},{"start":16895.148,"end":16922.024,"text":"因为这些医院的所在地不会是医疗资源缺乏地区但是他的生活机能确实是无法和西部地区来相比较愿意到东部服务的医护确实是比较好甚至在台东开到一个月51万的薪水都没有医生要去所以我在这里建议到第三个就是说原住民原住民族地区的医院"},{"start":16922.944,"end":16945.423,"text":"那這三個認定標準之外本席還想就是說列出第四個有些醫院可能就是說他地處偏鄉那比較不容易在這個前三項的不是在這個前三項的範圍內譬如說這個南投的竹山秀傳醫院也是不容易留住醫護人才的地方"},{"start":16946.184,"end":16958.775,"text":"所以我希望說可以在這個稅制的優惠上讓偏鄉增加一點誘因然後也感謝所有這些醫護人員為偏鄉的奉獻我不曉得這樣的建議部長怎麼看"},{"start":16961.179,"end":16965.581,"text":"我相當的支持我們過去的確跟我曾經在財委會過也爭取了特別的課諸額但是都不太會成功所以這個我們會特別來補"},{"start":16980.805,"end":17007.865,"text":"要跟財政部好好來溝通一下很多的時候我是吉祥物所以我覺得我們這個有時候時間點不一樣或者他比較成熟或有一些這個很多的因素加起來搞不好這是一個好時機對 如果說像王院長他們只有這樣是有幫助的話表示他們已經想很久覺得這是有幫助那你感謝委員這麼關心而且能夠提議這麼具體我想衛福部一定來研議"},{"start":17008.746,"end":17030.481,"text":"好那因為接下來是繳稅的季節今年肯定是來不及啦所以我們再加把勁希望就是說看看明年可不可以有好消息這樣子好的好的謝謝那另外這邊還有個問題也要特別另外請這個食藥署署長江署長一起上來好師生同台嗎"},{"start":17034.349,"end":17045.045,"text":"那個我就直接問了就是兩位都是醫學院的教授首先想要請到江署長醫療效果跟健康效應是不是一樣有沒有不同的意義"},{"start":17048.347,"end":17075.569,"text":"醫療效果是某一個疾病診斷治療前後健康的效應它是一個通稱那有時候跟委員那個垂尋壓力相對放下那個健康效果效應就是比較好所以中間其實是會有不一樣的意義在因為本期不是食品OK好再請教部長如果不一樣的話我們可不可以這樣解讀就是說"},{"start":17076.63,"end":17077.631,"text":"看起來是OK的"},{"start":17104.284,"end":17131.363,"text":"只要是藥物都是他治療的是療效可是對於一般的食品你不能宣稱任何的療效他就會違反到我剛剛應該沒有說錯什麼啦是好那我們對於這個健康跟醫療的差別其實是很容易溝通啦那可是呢當我看到食品安全衛生法的一個認定規則當下還有點傻眼就是說兩位看一下這個規定"},{"start":17133.584,"end":17155.695,"text":"名称叫做食品及相关产品标示宣导广告涉及不实夸张一身误解或医疗效果的认定准则来看一下准则第五条食品之标示宣传或广告有下列情形之一认定为涉及医疗效能"},{"start":17156.335,"end":17173.387,"text":"那涉及預防改善減輕診斷或治療疾病症候群或症狀好再來就是涉及減輕或降低導致疾病有關之體內成分那第三個是涉及中藥材效能"},{"start":17176.789,"end":17198.538,"text":"所以藥品是針對已經有疾病症狀來治療用的它本身不是用來預防改善的目的本席這樣子表述有沒有錯誤我沒有設定沒有設定任何陷阱讓大家跳我們只是釐清一些概念而已我稍微說明一下如果是藥品"},{"start":17199.329,"end":17213.649,"text":"它對於一定是來自於這個藥物的治療之下產生的效果對特定產生 比如說膽固醇的下降那我們下降到什麼程度其實是有實證科學的證據底下最後"},{"start":17214.875,"end":17236.588,"text":"核給他這個藥物的適應症所以他的上市是從藥物的開始前期以及中間的臨床的試驗確定到開始的我們長期的療效這個是屬於藥品的適應的食品的部分其實我們是最基本的食品其實是為了我們的生活跟生命的延續所以他是必須要的"},{"start":17237.268,"end":17261.277,"text":"我想但是就是說這個食品或者保健食品它所強調的或是大家所關切的就是涉及一些症狀及預防改善那現在準則的這一條規定已經把所有涉及苗樹健康效應的範疇通通把它納為醫療效能連這個營養成分都不可以講因為涉及減輕疾病有關的這個體內成分也都不可以講"},{"start":17266.619,"end":17287.831,"text":"那明明你們主管的這個營養及健康飲食促進法所定義的營養成分例如糖類蛋白質維生素礦物質要求食品業者要多添加及宣導結果只要講了任何的這個健康效應就會變成不實的醫療效果的廣告"},{"start":17288.591,"end":17302.863,"text":"那這樣子不就是只准週關放火然後不准百姓點燈嗎因為這個動輒裁罰有收幾百萬上千萬那甚至就是有些公司因此不得不關門大吉"},{"start":17305.905,"end":17325.716,"text":"就是說我們這樣看起來說原來說消滅產業才是準則的最大功效看起來好像變成是這樣因為業者他不敢就是說完整標示完整然後讓消費者就是說我們現在很多就是我們不知道自己在買什麼吃什麼"},{"start":17327.157,"end":17345.878,"text":"比較誠實的業者然後就是說寫了經過實驗認證的功效反而也是被罰的所以最後大家怎麼樣會變成說好像大家改做進口商當然很多消費者就是專門去買日韓的健康食品"},{"start":17347.059,"end":17364.95,"text":"所以我不希望說這個衛福部變成是促進日韓健康食品產業的最大幫手因為這些國家他們沒有這樣子像筷子手一樣的準則我今天用詞比較重一點啦因為你們這個有時候這個比例裁罰也是很重的"},{"start":17365.55,"end":17390.524,"text":"這個都是為了國人的健康但是我想在很多的面向到底合不合理有沒有跟上時代這個是大家要去深思因為畢竟目前這個賴總統很重要國政健康台灣不就是要培養我們國人的這個健康的觀念從飲食上好的這個健康促進來提升免疫力然後減少這個癌症及慢性病的發生率可是因為這些法規過時狹隘"},{"start":17392.785,"end":17411.174,"text":"以及這些好像感覺很威權的這樣的一個觀念然後不准這個實名業者去宣導經過學術認證的健康效應我想這個有時候我們誤把風景這個當作馬良所以我想今天提出這樣子的一個一些這樣的議題我們來溝通啊"},{"start":17414.367,"end":17434.417,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢特別是針對食品的部分在台灣是健康食品法針對我們的食品有宣稱它的所謂的功效的部分我們有13種的認定那這認定我們會給小綠人標章至於委員順便提到的有相當多的保健相關的食品"},{"start":17435.057,"end":17457.271,"text":"那因為健康食品強調是保健功效嘛所以很多我們一般的食品呢他宣稱他是叫做所謂的保健食品在這種情形之下呢裡面有很多重要的所謂的功能性的一些成分所以目前我們署內也是積極的在研議希望把這些功能性的成分能夠納入我們納管的範圍裡面"},{"start":17459.352,"end":17483.155,"text":"那最近呢我們其實是遇到的一個最重要的一個議題或許委員也了解那因為有很多很多的採購購買在電視裡面的廣告裡面有很多的家長長輩們的採用之下其實它相對於它的所謂的功效的部分會有相對的是讓人家是覺得是神乎其技的"},{"start":17483.695,"end":17507.619,"text":"那我覺得這部分我們在廣告這部分特別會注意本席剛剛提的我要討論的內容並不是要去討論這個被業者誇大的層面而是經實驗證實它有這個效應的部分是不是可以如實的納入而不被當作是好像誇大或者是宣稱了什麼醫療的這個的"},{"start":17511.201,"end":17525.834,"text":"功效去被裁罰所以我想這個是兩個議題本席肯定你們去把這些誇大不實的這些業者狠狠的給他罰但是有些在"},{"start":17526.534,"end":17532.881,"text":"法規的這個擴大的這個有點無限上綱的這個不合理的這個規範我覺得我們應該要與時俱進畢竟有日本韓國這樣子的國家我們是可以去參考的"},{"start":17542.731,"end":17562.709,"text":"那因为我知道你们一定会去提到这个健康食品的认证其实坦白讲健康食品的认证也产生了一样类似的问题他能讲的提到的也还是很局限所以这个部分本席真的要拜托你们好好的去做一个检讨"},{"start":17563.109,"end":17591.141,"text":"特別是部長也是在總統府的健康台灣推動委員會裡面擔任執行秘書所以這個部分我希望就是說大家來為這個發展台灣健康產業的經濟規模來做努力而不是去限縮國人的健康權所以這個部分我希望你們是不是可以在能不能在多久內來檢討完畢然後修訂這個不合理的行政命令"},{"start":17593.281,"end":17597.626,"text":"協力使用署可不可以先到委員辦公室去了解一下整個"},{"start":17600.345,"end":17621.892,"text":"因為這限制到蠻多要處理的了解一下,然後兩個月內提出怎麼樣改善、怎麼樣處理的報告好,那就兩個月到中間也歡迎我們大家來多溝通謝謝因為我對新的署長有很大的期待謝謝,他是實戰專家署長就趕快去"},{"start":17627.817,"end":17656.757,"text":"來接下來鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在羅美玲委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員不在麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在鄭振誠委員鄭振誠委員鄭振誠委員不在顏匡衡委員顏匡衡委員顏匡衡委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在何欣存委員何欣存委員何欣存委員不在林儲英委員林儲英委員林儲英委員不在蔡義瑜委員蔡義瑜委員蔡義瑜委員不在黃捷委員黃捷委員黃捷委員不在"},{"start":17657.54,"end":17670.225,"text":"林德虎委員林德虎委員林德虎委員不在邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在來請陳冠廷委員慢慢請部長來有請部長"},{"start":17675.615,"end":17700.822,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們最近健保署有發生一個比較重大的一個資安的案件甚至不是資安是跟國安相關的我們是不是也請署長也一併來這個前健保署主密他好像有倒賣一些重要的資訊給中國目前這樣的狀況掌握到什麼樣的情形"},{"start":17704.458,"end":17727.217,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個健保署的月前阻密它是在112年間檢調開始啟動調查那1月的時候開始調查112年1月開始調查那因為到目前為止都還沒有偵查終結起訴所以等於是還在偵查中所以我們就內部有沒有"},{"start":17728.158,"end":17753.569,"text":"掌握到說是不是有些重要的資訊已經洩漏出去了因為我們是配合這個行政的部分配合檢方的調查那目前並沒有被告知這樣那我想請教一下那整個健保署也好或者衛福部裡面針對這一些在行政上面的調查有沒有已經開始或者是說有之前就已經有些報告"},{"start":17754.909,"end":17778.315,"text":"因為我們剛剛跟委員我們是針對說我們如何繼續的強化那因為這個是在司法部公開的原則上我們大概不便對外說明但是我們內部上的有做若干的這個強化措施這樣我想請教一下像是前組密他們會不要經過公務人員的基本的背景查核就是做一些安全審核等等的"},{"start":17780.064,"end":17795.957,"text":"當任公務員的時候除了一些特殊的職類之外一般並沒有通常是有正面表列他是不是在正面表列裡面他是不是他不是你覺得他是不是應該要理論上這樣子的職位是不是應該要列入這些表列中"},{"start":17796.817,"end":17812.192,"text":"因為他的職位是主任秘書啦那這個職位其實在各個單位也都有類似的職位所以目前並沒有被列入我剛才問題不是說有沒有被列入的事你覺得是不是應該就你一個機關的首長你的看法認為呢"},{"start":17815.592,"end":17842.826,"text":"就我們現在健保當然他是有很多的這個個資的資料在所以我們在內部的這個機制上的是十分的強調這個內控的機制包含他的授權還有最小範圍授權哪些人可以接觸到資料然後這個資料調閱的時候要以最小範圍為原則同時呢盡可能的要去掉這個可辨識資料等等最小範圍"},{"start":17844.428,"end":17851.059,"text":"為主然後然後授權主秘需要知道嗎主秘需要知道這些資訊嗎"},{"start":17852.717,"end":17874.839,"text":"要看他的業務,我們會根據他的業務那他要調閱資料的時候,都要他的直屬長官要同意才可以每一個我們的規定是這樣逐一的直屬長官是...那就會到那個署長署長,會到署長,那署長知不知情啊像這些最近他的這些重大的已經上新聞的事情他應該知道吧"},{"start":17875.94,"end":17899.131,"text":"因為那個時候不是我還沒到這個署裡面我現在講簡單一點我把這個總的統整起來跟大家講一下我們現在在做的是機關保防那其實現在我們正面表列主要都是以安全人員情報人員或者是會接觸機密資訊的國防外交安全為主安全保安局等等"},{"start":17899.711,"end":17927.524,"text":"但是現在看起來中國的它的能量它的滲透的部分它已經是不包含一個機關了它是跨部會的那跨部會裡面就過去我們認為說社福相關的未還等等它可能不是會接觸到基民資訊的人但是因為就不管是在新聞上媒體所揭露出來的我們的國家安全情報人員等等他們還是有健保他們也要用健保的資訊所以這些資訊還是有可能會去被滲透所以我是希望說"},{"start":17929.979,"end":17957.39,"text":"這個部長你們可以給我一個出面的報告認為說哪些人員會接觸到機敏資訊的人員是不是要納入那些正面表列接受一些安全的核可所有安全的核可包含出入境紀錄包含他的財務等等是不是要有最基本的這樣的做法部長怎麼看我們大概能在的就是衛福部主管的範圍嘛這保持要"},{"start":17959.187,"end":17981.75,"text":"是一個啦 當然衛生資料有幾十個那大概是健保資料一般來講是最為重要所以我們現在也剛好在行政院審議這個健保資料的一個使用的狀況表示我們對這個是很重視那這個案例好像祖密這個部分是無權去接觸到資料的啦"},{"start":17982.39,"end":18004.946,"text":"是業務單位,是業務單位嘛,業務單位才有辦法接觸所以這個怎麼防弊,不是防阻密,我的看法是防那個接觸到資料的這就是我們剛才講的嘛,這個機關保防裡面哪些人員他需要接觸到這些資訊嘛那需要知道這些資訊的人才會要被授權知道這些資訊"},{"start":18006.467,"end":18021.538,"text":"這個之外這些人是不是有最基本的背景合格這個可能我們也是希望納入在裡面正面表列現在整個行政院他整個正面表列的大概是有一千多個職務嘛那我想說是不是有一些健保署相關的也要把他納入職務我們來檢討一下因為從櫃檯就開始有接觸了"},{"start":18025.16,"end":18045.627,"text":"就開始有接觸相關的資料所以可能還有就是接觸整個比較大的庫的這可能比較沒關係這個部長這個可能內部幕僚在想要趕快再補充最後一個問題關於這個也是跟國家安全比較有關的跟部長請教一下之前我們有討論到這個戰備醫療物資整備的狀況那我們也是希望"},{"start":18049.648,"end":18066.349,"text":"國防部 權動署來去監測等等但是去年5月到現在因為去年5月到去年12月大概花了大概半年的時間我們才把這個輸液短缺的情況來解決那輸液短缺的問題可能它不是量而是傷源就是說我們現在是監測的話是監測量"},{"start":18068.712,"end":18084.205,"text":"之外有沒有監測商源夠不夠還有一些商源國的包括我們自己本國還有其他國家如果你開發多重商源但是這些商源國有沒有在他們地緣政策上面有沒有一些或者是在他們的物流等等一些問題這些有沒有納入考量"},{"start":18086.363,"end":18106.706,"text":"有沒有制定出安全的存量還有安全存量之外它的商源量還有這些國內備援的生產機制現在狀況是怎麼樣好 這邊跟委員回應就針對輸液這個特定的議題來講我們跟委員先報告我們今年3月24號已經整個完整回到自由的市場的機制但是我們持續還是維持著去協調"},{"start":18107.867,"end":18136.374,"text":"那能夠假如有需要的時候做搭配因為就是來自於不同的來源的這個原料輸液各家的產線總量跟國內的使用量目前都是已經可以達到平衡所以從這個例子裡面針對剛才提到的所謂的國家醫藥的韌性的部分在所謂的平轉戰的一個階段我們也有進一步的去做一些考量因為這個部分的確是牽涉到國安的議題我們實際上一直都跟"},{"start":18137.954,"end":18161.776,"text":"國家的國安的部分呢做一些些的一些考量謝謝喔因為我再次強調因為那是最近的事情而已喔那我們要花八九個月才可以把基本的這個物資來調配完畢那更不用在成品狀況是這樣那在不成品的狀況的話有衝突的狀況在封鎖或者是阻隔的狀況我不知道要幾個月那所以這個要"},{"start":18163.649,"end":18173.959,"text":"要納入考量 因為你剛剛講到量也是但是當初國內市場市佔率是70%所以說商源也是很重要的這個要一併幫我們納入 謝謝謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 兩位署長"},{"start":18190.632,"end":18215.62,"text":"好 本會議詢問全部結束那委員圖權及林德福 邱振軍 徐欣盈 黃婕所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定第一 報告及詢問完畢第二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆為另要求期限者從期所定"},{"start":18216.66,"end":18220.484,"text":"本部會議到此結束,現在休息,星期四上午九點繼續開會,謝謝"},{"start":18241.008,"end":18242.028,"text":"要回去用餐了"},{"start":18262.775,"end":18263.435,"text":"這張是武漢的畫面"}]}},{"id":"16591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16591","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e9d3c58e6035bf0891fc48310b441d33d4af80a8cb003b9bad82e44332ff4f8955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-16T08:31:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-16T13:09:00+08:00","duration":16660,"影片長度":"04:37:40","委員發言時間":"08:31:20 - 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農業部杜長志行政院主計總處陳主計長及相關人員予以說明"},{"start":1884.648,"end":1905.765,"text":"及答覆決定一報告說明及詢答完畢二委員詢答未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關單位一周內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從期鎖定三委員員寬恆王世堅徐欣盈林楚英陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":1907.57,"end":1934.22,"text":"討論事項1審查納稅者權力保護法4案1委員賴世保等22人擬軍納稅者權力保護法部分條文修正草案案2委員國庭委等18人擬軍納稅者權力保護法第4條條文修正草案案3委員林思明等20人擬軍納稅者權力保護法第7條及第21條條文修正草案案4委員林思明等18人擬軍納稅者權力保護法第21條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1935.22,"end":1949.449,"text":"決議一 審查結果一 第四條 趙委員 羅廷瑋等18人提案通過二 第六條 趙委員賴世保等22人提案通過三 第七條及第21條均維持現行條文四 第20條 趙委員賴世保等22人提案修正通過"},{"start":1951.377,"end":1967.037,"text":"第三項修正為前項納稅者權利保護官得由外部專家學者擔任第四項不予增訂第五及六項一列第四及五項第七項一列為第六項並修正為財政部每年應就催捐基深機關辦理納稅者權利保護業務"},{"start":1970.161,"end":1990.618,"text":"機效及考核結果提出報告並送立法院備查5.增訂第21條之一不予增訂2.全案審查完畢案已據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論權不需交由黨團學商院會討論時由賴昭及委員事保補充說明2.審查加值型及非加值型營業稅法法案"},{"start":1991.94,"end":2011.622,"text":"一委員鍾嘉斌等十八人委員鍾嘉斌等二十三人委員郭國文等十七人分別擬據加執行及非加執行營業稅法部分條件修正草案案等三案二委員陳昌明等十八人委員邱志偉等十六人分別擬據加執行及非加執行營業稅法第八條條件修正草案"},{"start":2012.122,"end":2027.843,"text":"等二案三委員賴世保等二十五人委員應寬恆等十六人分別擬據加值刑及非加值刑營業稅法第十三條條文修正草案等二案四委員賴世保等二十二人擬據加值刑及非加值刑營業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2028.844,"end":2049.686,"text":"決議一 審查結果 第六條 之一 第三十二條 之一 第四十八條 之二及第五十條均維持現行條文二 第十條 第十三條 第二十三條 之二十六條 第二十八條 第三十二條 第四十條均保留送院會處理三 五十八條 趙委員賴世寶等二十二人提案通過並修正立法說明"},{"start":2051.204,"end":2071.448,"text":"2.委員中嘉賓等18人 委員中嘉賓等23人分別履具加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案等二案委員賴世保等25人 委員寬恒等16人分別履具加值型及非加值型營業稅法第13條條文修正草案等二案審查完均併案履具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論權需交由黨團協商院會討論時由賴昭及委員"},{"start":2075.969,"end":2095.464,"text":"事保補充說明三委員賴事保等二十二人履具加值刑及非加值刑業稅法第五十八條條文修正草案案審查完據履具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需交由黨團宣判院會討論時由賴召集人事保補充說明四委員郭國文等十七人履具加值刑及非加值刑業稅法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2096.605,"end":2113.654,"text":"及委員陳超明等18人 委員邱志偉等16人分別履具加值刑及非加值刑一頁稅法第8條條文修正草案等二案令折期繼續審查通過臨時提案六案宣讀完畢好 謝謝請問各位委員對於上一次的議事錄有沒有意義"},{"start":2114.926,"end":2143.588,"text":"好沒有依依那議事錄確定請議事人員先讀今日的議程邀請財政部長莊翠雲經濟部農業部及公平交易委員會就防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透過台灣息產地問題之因應策略進行專題報告並被質詢宣讀完畢好我們現在先介紹那個到場的那個委員我們首先先介紹林德虎委員"},{"start":2148.094,"end":2166.267,"text":"吳秉瑞委員謝謝那接著依序介紹議會的官員首先我們先介紹財政部莊翠銀部長官務署彭英偉署長國庫署陳柏成署長戶稅署宋署長國有財產署曾署長"},{"start":2177.429,"end":2197.942,"text":"財政資訊中心主任 張主任經濟部政務次長 江次長國際貿易署副署長 胡副署長國有產業發展署副署長 陳副署長商業發展署 劉副署長"},{"start":2205.047,"end":2222.974,"text":"標準局賴副局長 農業部杜文貞常務次長國際事務司副司長洪曉軍 訓務司周科長農糧署副署長黃副署長 漁業署陳副署長"},{"start":2228.171,"end":2238.771,"text":"水產試驗所淡水養殖研究中心研究員 楊研究員公平交易委員會主任秘書 毛主任秘書"},{"start":2244.383,"end":2273.337,"text":"那今日議程的安排我們邀請財政部莊部長經濟部農業部及公平交易委員會就緩緩中國大陸產品低價請銷及透過台灣息產地的問題的因應策略那進行專題報告那首先我們先請財政部莊部長進行專題報告那依次是經濟部然後再來是農業部那請三位那個精簡的報告那請財政部部長先"},{"start":2273.797,"end":2275.258,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今日貴委員會邀請相關部會就防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷以及透過臺灣息產地問題的因應策略進行專題報告緊就涉及本部業務部分做簡要的報告進行指教"},{"start":2299.232,"end":2305.417,"text":"首先是執行反傾銷措施維護台灣商民權益這個部分我國反傾銷調查的申請以及審查"},{"start":2307.742,"end":2328.235,"text":"都是根據WTO反請銷協定規定辦理那麼請銷調查案件呢經過國內的相關業者或工會提出申請以後那必須提交本部的關稅稅域審議小組來做審議經過決議進行調查的話那麼就會由本部和經濟部分別就是否構成請銷以及國內產業"},{"start":2331.177,"end":2345.429,"text":"產業是否因此遭受的損害來進行調查那麼我國現行採取反傾銷措施的產品總共有十件其中八件是中國大陸的產品包括當獨對中國大陸產製進口的毛巾等課徵反傾銷稅那對於中國大陸以及韓國產製進口的不鏽鋼冷壓鋼瓶等"},{"start":2352.955,"end":2368.363,"text":"課徵反請銷稅另外本部在今年的3月11日公告對中國大陸產製進口的啤酒還有特定的熱壓扁壓鋼品進行反請銷的調查那等到完成初步調查以後呢提交我們關稅稅率審議小組審議做成有沒有有無請銷初步認定後並且決定是否臨時課徵反請銷稅"},{"start":2377.208,"end":2388.158,"text":"那中上國內業者對於中國大陸產品提出反傾銷調查的申請那麼就可以獲得相關的救濟保障來維護我國公平競爭的經商環境那麼確保產業次序的穩定第二個就落實反堵違規轉運保障台灣經貿安全的部分為了防堵中國大陸出口貨品"},{"start":2399.62,"end":2421.858,"text":"規避美國所加徵的百分之一百四十五關稅而會落經我國偉茂台灣製造後違規轉運息產地到美國那麼本部採取了事先預防事中嚴查以及事後研發三道防線來應應並且以這個為基礎我們更進一步的規劃精進的作為說明如下首先三道防線防堵違規轉運的部分事先的預防"},{"start":2425.18,"end":2439.093,"text":"包括了配合經濟部公告要求廠商在出口的時候必須要檢附輸出許可證或原產地證明那麼海關才能夠通關放行第二個我們和經濟部合作對於經過篩選屬於高風險貨物以及高風險廠商我們在核發原產地證明之前必須要嚴加的審核"},{"start":2448.542,"end":2465.511,"text":"第三個針對廠商出口美國的貨物海關的系統會主動提示業者要注意出口貨物的原產地訊息並且輔導出口廠商要強化法尊的意識那麼第二個就是在市中檢查的部分"},{"start":2465.871,"end":2470.654,"text":"我們針對出口美國貨物篩選可疑的目標海關查驗貨物的時候要嚴查產地確認是不是有違規轉運的情勢第二個我們針對高風險業者海關在保稅艙間要加強查核貨品的標籤以及產地的標示"},{"start":2484.344,"end":2492.687,"text":"在事後的研發部分我們會議請主管機關研發違規的廠商那麼海關茶貨廠商沒有依規定標示產地或標示不實的話就會移送貿易署依照貿易法的規定最高可處罰新台幣300萬元的罰還或禁止一年的輸出貨品如果屬於自由貿易港區茶貨的違規廠商那麼就會用自貿港區的設置管理條例的規定來做懲罰"},{"start":2513.396,"end":2542.616,"text":"第四個我們會要加強國際間的合作來協助境內的查核接下來為各位報告有關四項的經濟措施第一個我們海關的各官會成立強化違規轉運的查核小組我們強力查核包含在密度強度部分都會加強第二個我們會精進風險的分析資料庫來精準打擊可疑的對象第三個我們會擴大宣導商民遵守相關的規定避免觸法"},{"start":2543.556,"end":2569.49,"text":"第四個我們會鼓勵檢舉不法那麼全民協力打擊不肖的廠商本部和經濟部將會持續密切的合作執行反傾銷的措施保障本土的產業權益並且在三道防線基礎上持續的精進各項行政的作為來強化防堵的力道維護台灣的利益以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝接著請經濟部那個江次長進行專題報告"},{"start":2578.297,"end":2605.919,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好承蒙各位委員會邀請就繁放中國產品傾銷及透過台灣洗產地問題的因應策略進行報告經濟部將與財政部密切合作以避免中國產品透過台灣洗產地或傾銷台灣危害國內的產業發展損害我國商譽以下僅就經濟部的業務相關部分提出報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2606.96,"end":2626.883,"text":"首先在美國對各國科徵對等關稅部分美國川普總統在今年的1月20重返白宮後延續美國優先的路線推出許多關稅措施希望能縮減貿易逆差及促使製造業回流美國目前在對等關稅方面美國在4月5號"},{"start":2628.004,"end":2645.637,"text":"美國已宣布從4月5日起對所有國家加徵10%的關稅另外對57個貿易順差比較高的國家加徵11%到15%不等的稅率隨後由於中國採取了反制措施美國在4月9日宣布將對其"},{"start":2647.432,"end":2651.196,"text":"將其對等關稅稅率累加到145%其餘國家在未來90天內暫停原宣布的對等關稅稅率維持加徵10%的基礎稅率"},{"start":2663.376,"end":2688.302,"text":"由於美國對57個國家科徵對等關稅造成各國關稅稅率差距高關稅稅率的國家產品可能會流向低稅率的國家以更換產地標示、重新包裝或簡單加工的方式轉運美國被美國科徵高關稅的國家的貨品一旦透過我國轉運至美國規避高關稅以及這些國家產製產品低價傾銷我國"},{"start":2690.502,"end":2718.907,"text":"都将危害我国产业发展 影响我国国际信誉而且可能使我国成为美方关注的对象为了防度违规转运经济部将采取多项具体的作为包括全面监视进出口监督高风险厂商重研财阀违规厂商配合财政部加速调查反倾销案件加强对业者宣导等以健全贸易秩序维护产业利益"},{"start":2720.171,"end":2746.321,"text":"在監測貿易量跟高風險廠商的方面為了避免高稅率國家貨品流入我國經濟部已經建立了監測系統追蹤貨品量的變化在發生重大違規轉運的情形之前能夠防範未然此外經濟部將透過自美國科徵高關稅國家進口的產品跟出口美國的產品全面勾結比對進口量跟出口量之間的關聯性"},{"start":2747.641,"end":2765.593,"text":"以及特定貨品或廠商是否有異常進出口的情形依據前述監測方法及了解異常貨品的產業特性下進一步會去仿視個案廠商掌握其進口來源及出口流向後建立高風險廠商的名單並且海關加強查驗防度違規產品出口"},{"start":2772.492,"end":2785.776,"text":"違規轉運不僅會嚴重損害我國信譽進口國也可能對我國發動貿易救濟調查及採取救濟措施或者科徵高關稅影響我國產業的發展因此經濟部將對違規的行為加強裁罰根據貿易法第17條第28條的規定出口貨品如果有產地標示不實得署以警告6萬至300萬元罰款或停止輸出入貨品"},{"start":2800.141,"end":2825.653,"text":"情节重大者得废止出进口厂商的资格如果进口货品没有在台湾进行实质转型而经转换包装或进行简单加工程序后就标示台湾产制并出口到美国的厂商本部将会视违规的情形加严处分每一张报单最高可以罚新台币300万元严重者取消厂商的资格"},{"start":2826.758,"end":2842.146,"text":"此外我們也會配合財政部加速調查反傾銷案件我們已經為了因應中國因為產能過剩的原因低價傾銷我國我們已對中國的貨品按月進行進口量"},{"start":2842.846,"end":2848.29,"text":"還有價格的監測並提出監測的報告經濟部跟產業工協會向來均保持密切的聯繫對於這些監測的結果如果發現異常也會進一步洽詢相關工協會跟業者了解原因如有啟動反傾銷調查的必要會透過專案計劃請全國工業總會幫助業者申請"},{"start":2863.799,"end":2884.487,"text":"調查案財政部及經濟部對於這些申請案都會依法分別盡速完成反傾銷完成傾銷及產業損害調查的認定並採取措施保護國內產業同時為了避免廠商因為對原產地認定等相關進出或規定不熟悉而違規經濟部將加強辦理貿易管理的宣導會"},{"start":2888.268,"end":2917.419,"text":"第一场宣导会已经在昨天4月15日举行总计有超过600人出席主要参与的业别为机械、电子、金属、纺织及化学业等本年规划跟相关的产业工协会办理至少要18场的宣导会提醒厂商不违规转运经济部希望厂商跟政府能够密切的合作不要铤而走险反而被美国科技高关税维护业者自身的"},{"start":2917.799,"end":2943.424,"text":"以及我國的信譽如此才能在全球供應鏈重整過程中得到各國的信任為了維護台灣產品在全世界市場的聲譽防止台灣成為習產地的破口經濟部將與財政部密切合作打擊習產地的不法行為保障我國的商譽確保我國經濟永續發展以上報告敬請指教也祝各位身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2945.307,"end":2972.673,"text":"我們接著請農業部杜次長進行專題報告主席各位委員各位女士先生大院貴委員會全體委員今日邀請本部列席防範中國大陸產品低價請消及透過臺灣息產地問題之因應策略會議請就農業部業管部分提出以下報告敬請各位委員給予指教"},{"start":2974.559,"end":3001.448,"text":"維護農民權益針對國內有產製的多數的敏感農產品我國已管制該農產品不得自中國大陸進口以避免對國產的造成一些衝擊令為防渡農產品走私夾帶或是第三國轉印的邊境管制及查查農業部配合查緝單位進行聯合查緝配合鑑定及處理農產品的銷毀工作共同防範非法走私的行為"},{"start":3002.728,"end":3021.485,"text":"二為協助海關查緝與判定原產地作業農業部已成立農產品協助鑑定小組針對海關或相關政府單位移送至鑑定貨樣藉由品種外觀顏色形狀等特徵觀察或以微量元素穩定同位數進行分析與相關資料庫進行比對協助海關做原產地的鑑別"},{"start":3022.906,"end":3035.952,"text":"為強犯中國大陸農產品自第三國轉運來台農業部持續採取下列三個大措施一加強聯繫與勤資收集協助查緝與鑑定強化跨部位的橫向聯繫積極對於進口與市售的農產品進行聯合積查與查"},{"start":3041.434,"end":3064.002,"text":"查處協助鑒定所移送的農產品之銷並銷毀協助銷毀走私的農產品追溯犯罪源頭增加查緝的效能針對重要農產品農業部防範措施例舉如下一大蒜跟香菇為了有效防範中國大陸香菇及大蒜經由周邊國家轉運至台灣財政部關務署依據海關認定進口貨品原產地作業要點"},{"start":3064.842,"end":3091.432,"text":"規定需逐批茶葉尤其韓送致農業部雜糧蔬菜特作協助鑑定小組進行原產地鑑定二茶葉我國禁止中國大陸茶葉進口至其他國家輸入者需要提供原產地證明將加強對進口國家的查核此外為強化國產茶溯源管理本部已經公告指定國產茶為應登錄溯源資訊之農產品及其應遵行事項"},{"start":3092.392,"end":3101.423,"text":"自112年1月1日起產地標示為台灣的也就是我們的國產茶葉經營者應於流通販賣前把溯源資訊及標示方式"},{"start":3102.401,"end":3120.974,"text":"一規定辦理及包裝應該張貼農糧產品追溯條碼或產銷履歷或有驗證標章三牡蠣本部與衛福部分別就生產端及市售端辦理溯源標章及散裝攤商的輔導那也就相關的法規進行修訂並視產業狀況滾動調整"},{"start":3123.596,"end":3148.029,"text":"為了強化我國牡蠣的溯源管理持續推動牡蠣養殖業者申請溯源截至2014年3月底溯源戶達1270戶涵蓋率達64%應為防範進口牡蠣混充牡蠣販售行政院食安辦結合高檢署本部衛福部內政部保期總隊等進行試售牡蠣的專案查緝2.持續經濟與開發農產品的產地鑑別技術"},{"start":3151.151,"end":3171.617,"text":"為提升產地鑑別的準確度本部農產品協助鑑定小組持續開發精進各項農產品的產地鑑定技術並收集各國產地樣品與相關資料盡力完整資料庫以提供海關查緝機關作為判別產地資參考三 強化產地標示為避免業者魚目混珠以進口農產品冒充國產"},{"start":3172.677,"end":3188.074,"text":"品德這個不良標示行為本部會持續強化農產品的溯源管理例如指定國產茶葉為應登錄溯源資訊之農產品及其應遵行事項配合衛育服務推動強制標示市售散裝農畜禽產品等原產帝國資訊"},{"start":3189.375,"end":3195.963,"text":"辦理牡蠣的溯源標示及散裝攤方的輔導與修法是以持續輔導養殖業者依農產品生產及驗證管理辦法納入產銷履歷及隨產品溯源系統的管理以持續推動產銷履歷等標章區隔進口與國產農漁畜產品"},{"start":3207.717,"end":3232.925,"text":"結論我國針對多項國內重要農產品已禁止自中國大陸進口且設有進口原產地查驗加強溯源管理等管制措施本部將持續觀察各項農產品的進口情形適時與經濟部財政部衛福部及各縣市加強進口與市售農產品的產地查查此外財政部持持續與市前預防市中研查事後研發三道防線的違規"},{"start":3234.985,"end":3257.754,"text":"防止違規轉運本部將積極協助海關與食安單位查緝流通農產品不法情勢保障農民的收益以上報告敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝那現在我們開始詢答先做以下的宣告每一位出席的委員花言的時間是8分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘每一位列席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘"},{"start":3259.635,"end":3268.917,"text":"今天早上10點我們截止登記花園那現在一登記的順序請登記第一位的林德虎委員質詢謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請財政部莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":3292.833,"end":3314.272,"text":"委員好部長你好部長我請教因為去年稅收3.7兆超徵5283億主要的貢獻來自證交稅中所稅還有營業稅以及營所稅其中又以證交稅全年的整個成長907億元年增率達到46%"},{"start":3319.677,"end":3324.98,"text":"居首工那禮拜一財政部公布第一季的稅收5540億元比去年同期減少了36億元"},{"start":3332.83,"end":3359.722,"text":"那其中光是證交稅單月10增219億元219億元年減就是72億元成也是證交稅敗也是證交稅那如果以川普關稅的整個觀點分析請問部長你認為第二季過後甚至於今年全年的證交稅有機會維持去年的水準嗎"},{"start":3361.823,"end":3366.079,"text":"跟委員報告確實如委員所說的我們今年到3月為止的"},{"start":3366.613,"end":3394.951,"text":"持增数是比去年少了36亿这是里面关注证交税就少了52亿那也就跟委员说其实因为股票市场和这个国际的政经情势有相当高的联动而且跟美国的股市更有相当联动所以它的成交量其实也有相当幅度的一个变化所以说你认为大有大到五六千亿小有小到只有两千多亿所以这部分因为有很多不确定的因素在里面所以会影响到"},{"start":3395.511,"end":3405.076,"text":"股市的一個動能那這個部分我們會持續的觀察那依您判斷今年會不會難逃這個衰退的命運依目前這樣看當然因為相關的關稅政策的不確定會影響到國際貿易的成長的動能"},{"start":3412.113,"end":3438.803,"text":"那這個部分大家也都各個國家也都非常的關注好我想這個部分但是一到三月份其實我們的出口出口其實是成長的是比去年成長那當然有含在因為關稅的因素而大家都在拉貨所以我們出口是做成長的那另外也要跟委員報告就是說因為有關美國這個關稅的衝擊所以我們在五月份的所得稅申報的部分期間也把它延長"},{"start":3439.916,"end":3461.936,"text":"到6月底同時對有受到衝擊的不管是個人也好營利事業也好可以申請延期或者是分三年繳納那這個部分跟稅收都會有相關的一些聯動的影響部長3月下旬央行公佈整個經濟預測下修今年的整個經濟成長率達到就是只有到3.05%啦最近"},{"start":3464.618,"end":3479.868,"text":"大摩外資券商還預測川普的關稅政策會讓以出口為導向的我們整個台灣的經濟今年的GDP成長整個預估下修到2.2%那我請問部長你認為這個可能性是做壞的狀況嗎"},{"start":3487.489,"end":3510.49,"text":"我想對於這個關稅的影響行政院還有我們的經貿工作的談判小組都在努力希望能夠在爭取國家的最大利益以及維護我們廠商產業的國際競爭力都在做努力那我也希望這個能夠爭取到最好以後對我們的產業以及衝擊市場的大家最想打拚這個大家都知道了那個部長"},{"start":3511.711,"end":3532.581,"text":"為因應大陸產品低價傾銷及透過台灣席產地財政部採事前預防事中嚴查以及事後這個研劃整個三道的黃線那我請問部長目前哪些大陸產品是事前預防的重點項目因您看"},{"start":3534.07,"end":3537.313,"text":"目前來說對於大陸在對美國他有課徵反請銷稅的以及屬於301條款裡面他課徵高關稅的部分是我們列為最高風險的部分那未來由於這個美國對於中國大陸課徵145%的高關稅"},{"start":3550.706,"end":3564.253,"text":"那個差距這麼大會可能連其他貨品都會有可能會做違規轉運到台灣來所以這個部分我們除了在三道防線之外我們會再做一個精進的措施讓台灣不能成為洗產地的一個地方那我請教部長換句話說現階段的是有哪些高風險的貨物篩選高風險廠商有沒有出現盲區啊有沒有"},{"start":3581.059,"end":3607.654,"text":"這個部分也就是我們持續的一直在進行在這個部分您講的盲區的部分也就是我們要再進一步的來做那個部長現階段哪些種類的大陸產品財政部必須採取適中嚴查的這個方式才能夠有效防堵低價傾銷台灣甚至於透過台灣來其產地銷售到美國目前呢"},{"start":3609.295,"end":3611.296,"text":"目前來說當然高風險產品我們還是對於美國對他們課徵反傾銷稅跟301條款高關稅的部分那未來我們會擴大查查的範圍而且會強那個強度也會加強我們以各官會以官務長"},{"start":3625.551,"end":3641.647,"text":"帶隊組成一個小組做專案的棋查而且密度也會加強避免形成這個他們想要違規轉運的目的那當然我們這裡也請所有廠商也要知道千萬不要以身試法不要以身試法他們也如果有這種情況也歡迎來檢舉"},{"start":3643.939,"end":3660.353,"text":"那個部長這是政府事後處罰的作法財政部處罰的對象有哪些會不會因為川普關稅政策擴大處罰對象的範圍會不會啊對於有關他違規這個標示不實或申報不實的部分我們會依照貿易法移給國貿署來做懲罰"},{"start":3670.165,"end":3682.62,"text":"那最高可以拔到300而且可以或者是禁止輸出入營業那另外在自由貿易港區我們是依照自由貿易港區的條例來做移情處罰那對於相關罰則的部分我們希望能夠重罰讓這個避免以身試法部長美國海關檢視產地啊那這個"},{"start":3690.407,"end":3698.037,"text":"不僅大部分採個案來認定而且判定的原則更為多樣複雜國內產業重難是取得國內"},{"start":3703.274,"end":3724.419,"text":"MIT的認證也可能受到挑戰那針對美國海關原產地認定個案的做法配合這次整個川普關稅政策的實施請問部長財政部有統計過有哪些外銷美國的國內產業可能成為重點觀察的指標"},{"start":3725.984,"end":3728.407,"text":"我想我們每一樣產品都每一樣出口貨物都要做嚴格的審查那對於原產地證明怎麼樣的合法以及標準國貿署這個部分剛剛我們那個國貿經濟部的次長也有詳細的一個說明這個部分會持續的精進"},{"start":3743.186,"end":3766.955,"text":"香港部長 針對大陸產品低價傾銷 習產地的策略川普似乎把戰線拉到美國境外那我請問部長 你認為這個有效可行嗎對於習產地本身就是違法的一個行為這個部分我們當然是要嚴格的查查跟執行如果有違反的話就要懲罰嘛"},{"start":3768.052,"end":3796.025,"text":"部長因為卓榮泰卓院長說美國非常在意稀產地的問題未來中國到美國稅率都非常的高那中國產品會向世界各地來流竄最有可能跑到台灣來經過小三通就進來那部長政府竟然意見大陸產品將無路可銷"},{"start":3797.205,"end":3807.009,"text":"的大量這個低價的來傾銷到台灣來甚至於以加工的方式來吸產地那我請問部長大陸台商會不會成為大陸產品低價傾銷台灣的破口會不會"},{"start":3813.115,"end":3830.86,"text":"我想對於是不是低價請銷的部分我們剛剛報告裡面它有一定的制度跟怎樣來認定那都是我們依照WTO的規定所以會調查第一個有沒有低價請銷這個低價就是說它出口到我們這邊來的價格比它在國內正常銷售價格來的低甚至有影響到"},{"start":3832.241,"end":3860.703,"text":"國內產業的部分都會構成所謂的一個傾銷我們依照會刻意反傾銷稅新南向國家的這些台商會不會也成為大陸的產品轉運加工低價傾銷的破口會不會所有的破口我們都必須要防堵面對可能產生的破口你認為有沒有辦法可以阻絕在境外有沒有辦法"},{"start":3862.17,"end":3880.841,"text":"當然這個部分涉及到這個進口那進口以後他是不是往哪裡去這個部分我們也是要查查的是部長川普關稅政策新南向國家也在名單中上個禮拜財委會質詢時央行總裁曾說新南向國家萬一啊受關稅這關稅戰的影響政府也會"},{"start":3884.103,"end":3907.255,"text":"調整相關的政策內容然而就本席了解由於不少廠商採自中國進口原料或半成品台灣加工製造再出口到美國的模式所以預期新南向國家發展的台商恐怕容易受到美國海關高標準的檢視那我請問部長"},{"start":3909.016,"end":3935.774,"text":"現階段針對這些在新南向國家發展的台商政府能夠給予他們有哪些的幫助我想新南向在新南向國家裡面做這個製造或營運的台灣的廠商就政府來說第一個他只要正常營運不管是我們輸出銀行或者我們公股銀行對正常營運的廠商當然應該在金融上還給予支援"},{"start":3937.025,"end":3956.45,"text":"那至於如果他們要回台灣來投資的話那台灣也會背後相關的條件然後協助他們回台投資或轉向到其他國家的投資最後一個過去因為美國去中化的政策全球電子產業這個產業鏈積極的分散整個大陸生產的比重那朝東南亞等歷代發展"},{"start":3962.671,"end":3983.323,"text":"那國內有許多上市櫃電子產業的公司未配合政府新南向政策新南向國家更成為熱點整個投資區域那我請問部長像川普關稅政策下的台商投資成本獲利空間會不會相對出現成品價格上漲"},{"start":3984.784,"end":4008.442,"text":"那這個成本提升獲利當然減少的情況財政部的稅收會不會因此受到影響會不會如果收入減少的話當然會影響到稅收會影響到稅收那你們認為稅收的影響大致上大概照預計會出現有哪些稅損這個稅損的計算那還是要看最後它實際的影響程度"},{"start":4012.443,"end":4021.945,"text":"這樣齁 我是希望說我們要事前的一個預防啦 這個很重要是是是 是 謝謝好 謝謝德部委員接著請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請財政部莊部長 經濟部江次長好 財政部莊部長 經濟部江次長"},{"start":4046.331,"end":4070.747,"text":"委員好首先請教 關入署出口的統計是以出口地為標準的比如說實際裝船到美國這樣子但是美國的海關的計算方法是不一樣他是以進口來原國或是最多目的地為準這兩個定義不同 那如何在統計數據上如何去協調"},{"start":4077.26,"end":4091.219,"text":"這個部分確實在統計數上會有不同比如說我們是以出口當時的離岸的價格那他們是用什麼樣的價格不是只有價格喔我剛剛講的是一個是出口地一個是進口來源國跟最終目的地"},{"start":4093.181,"end":4111.194,"text":"會有不同都會相互的釐清另外就是說還有一個時間差的問題還有時間差這裡面是不是會造成民國113年台灣對美國的出口暴增到1000多億增加了46.1%跟上一年增加46.1%跟這個有沒有關係啊"},{"start":4113.939,"end":4130.136,"text":"我想這個部分當然因為計算的方式不同但他是用分子分母兩個都加的話他的分子都是增加其實美國認為台灣去年對他的順超是379億美金可是台灣本身的統計我們的這個粗糙是649億就中間就差了90億美金啊"},{"start":4136.563,"end":4159.922,"text":"這個金額就不一樣啊那是不是因為定義不一樣所以造成的會有差距那我們是不是應該要跟美國來好好的協商說這個到底要怎麼統計才能夠大家用一致的標準呢當然我想委員所提的這個部分我們可以把資料準備給我們經貿小組在談判的時候可以做一個說明也就是說金額上的一些我們統計上的不同的地方"},{"start":4161.02,"end":4182.786,"text":"提醒你美國針對產品的原料還有製造如果有35%是來自中國他就會認定是Made in China就是中國製造而他中國製造的關稅是比較高的到145%被宣布是這樣但是台灣針對附加價值我們如果製造附加價值超過35%我們就是認為是台灣製造"},{"start":4186.227,"end":4202.556,"text":"這中間就有落差我們想想看如果一個美國我們要出口去美國的產品從中國進口原料50%然後我們台灣加工50%它的價值然後出口去美國那這樣到底算是台灣製造還是算是中國製造"},{"start":4205.658,"end":4223.844,"text":"這個部分我們對於原產地的核發經濟部這邊有一定相關的規定什麼樣情況下可以發MIT這樣的一個原產地證明那至於美國它這樣的一個標準以及所謂的所謂的含中成分的問題就是說你的比例是多少是不是用什麼樣的課稅我想這部分是不是可以請經濟部來做說"},{"start":4225.575,"end":4240.926,"text":"那麼次長你有聽得懂我在問什麼嗎我們台灣現在自己的標準說我們無論原料從哪裡來只要在台灣製造負加價值超過35%以上就認為是台灣製造但是美國是這樣子美國進口到美國的產品"},{"start":4241.807,"end":4265.438,"text":"如果裡面的原料有35%以上它的價值是來自中國的他就認為是中國製造那我假設現在有一個狀況就是有某一項產品我們從中國進口原料或是半成品來到台灣加工結果裡面中國的原料跟它的半成品價值是50%台灣這邊的附加價值增加50%"},{"start":4268.581,"end":4290.072,"text":"以這個case而言台灣認為這是台灣製造但是美國認為這是中國製造那這中間這個矛盾要如何處理啊報告委員一個原產地的認定呢其實是進口國海關在認定您所提出的問題當然根據我們的規定是要有實質轉型也都是35%的轉變或者要稅率的這個稅號的轉換"},{"start":4295.194,"end":4319.948,"text":"所以我們現在有建議我們的所有的出口廠商一定要跟他的客戶他的美國的進口商要保持密切連續去詢問美國海關的相關規定第二個呢美國海關有個預審的制度我們的這個客戶可以請我們的出口商可以請客戶呢把這個要進口的產品的相關的成分的內容請美國海關先做一個預審"},{"start":4321.482,"end":4336.372,"text":"那這個是預審制度啊問題是我們台灣的規範就輸入美國的這一部分的產品要不要照美國的標準這樣的方式來修正啊不然的話我剛剛講那個case你還是沒有回答我"},{"start":4337.438,"end":4360.124,"text":"在美國的定義原料跟半成品只要價值在超過35%以上是來自中國他就認為中國製造但是台灣的定義卻是無論原料還有這個半成品從哪裡來只要在台灣加工產生的附加價值超過35%就認為是台灣製造那我剛剛那個case剛好have and have"},{"start":4361.854,"end":4390.177,"text":"台灣認為是台灣製造美國認為是中國製造這就剛好是美國認為你在替他洗產地啊在替中國洗產地不是嗎?相關的規定我們會再跟美國政府來做溝通我就說以剛剛我講的那個例子是不是就剛好美國政府就可以認為你台灣在幫中國洗產地這個部分的話要由美國來美國的海關來當你被美國海關認定你就慘啦你幫中國洗產地的時候台灣所有產品的關稅"},{"start":4394.581,"end":4407.447,"text":"所以我們現在呢是積極的鼓勵要降低這個所有的產品的含中成分我們經濟部也會輔導相關的業者做對所以我在今天在跟兩位溝通就是說我們台灣那個附加價值超過35%"},{"start":4409.508,"end":4426.221,"text":"如果你是銷到別的國家去或許這我們可以定義問題是你銷美國的產品你的定義要跟美國海關採取接近或一致的標準這樣我們台灣才不會有這個危險啊我今天就是在跟你溝通這件事情啊那你贊不贊成這樣的講法呢"},{"start":4428.652,"end":4444.565,"text":"所以我們一直有在鼓勵一定要降低他的產品有含中的成分這是經濟部一直在努力的方向我知道你剛剛已經有談過了你講的這個方式我也認同問題是你沒有回答到我的問題我們兩個的問題沒有在同一個平面上啦"},{"start":4445.225,"end":4473.39,"text":"你要鼓勵大家盡量原料或是半成品盡量不要有含中的成分這我也贊成問題是你至少要跟美國要協同商量有相同的計算方法我們才有辦法有一次的標準我現在在談你談的是相同的規範 一致的標準而不是你在講我也鼓勵我們應該要盡量往好的地方去啊但是這跟我剛剛跟你談的題目是兩件事情啦"},{"start":4475.949,"end":4495.481,"text":"所以這個提供給你們參考啦另外這個稀產地的太陽喔剛剛也要包括農業部這很難定義的啦我舉個例子我們在海上台灣海峽抓到的漁獲假設是中國的漁船抓到了台灣的漁船抓到的在海上做交易然後拿到台灣來在這邊銷售"},{"start":4498.629,"end":4524.287,"text":"那假設在這邊加工又出口去美國有沒有息產地的問題這也很難定義啊 農業部是不是來回答一下杜市長我剛剛的問題你有聽到水產的部分海上抓貨的其實它本來沒有國籍但是中國旅船抓貨 台灣旅船抓貨不一樣如果在海上做交易 然後把它運回來台灣然後再"},{"start":4525.171,"end":4536.72,"text":"出口去美國會不會有棲產地的問題應該這樣說啦 那個棲產地不是我們自己的棲產地那不是我們的貨嘛 對不對對啊 問題是你也知道我們的棲產地在海淀港那裡中國棲產地也在海淀港那裡那裡有時候就在海淀港購物海巡視會去那裡的這個部分 不行就不行"},{"start":4547.788,"end":4571.183,"text":"我當然知道不行啦 我的意思是說你這個有辦法很嚴格的來去處理這個事情不一定啦 境外要處理 國內要出口也是要來顧這個部分只有MIT才叫MIT好 那你先請回 江次長也先請回部長 是我上次跟你諮詢的時候在跟你談到那個小額包裹的事情"},{"start":4572.265,"end":4600.698,"text":"現在中國出現這種態樣大量的產品運到墨西哥去然後再用小額包裹分拆整個過去然後分拆用小額包裹進到美國去這樣給逃避關稅那我還是再次跟你強調小額包裹的免稅我知道有一些消費者因為他想要得到免稅的福利其實要向這裡澄清稅金是賣的人要交的"},{"start":4601.772,"end":4629.314,"text":"不是買方交的你賣方得到錢嘛 買方得到貨物嘛所以要交稅當然是賣方等於要交啊 對不對但是他們都是貪圖說我一年有幾次可以稅額他是像這樣子去降低那個價格可是這對台灣的製造業者非常的不公平台灣的製造業者有貨物稅出廠之後還有交易稅"},{"start":4630.768,"end":4642.968,"text":"然後他的官司獲利將來還有盈利事業所得稅分配股利到個人股東的時候還有綜合所得稅結果這些小額包括免稅進來通通不用了"},{"start":4645.459,"end":4661.147,"text":"那再來就是加害給付的問題 這上次我也跟你提過所以這部分拜託你一定要好好把關我們美國全部都希望製造業能夠重回美國了那台灣我們如果讓我們台灣的製造業者在一個不公平的競爭環境下那對台灣的業者是不公平的話是傷害台灣自身的產業是 我知道"},{"start":4672.458,"end":4689.945,"text":"委員一直對這個問題非常關注然後上次提案也要我們要提出一個報告這個部分我們會審慎的最後問一個問題一個小問題請問西產地從第一次美中貿易戰爭之後開始強調就重視到現在請問抓到多少件罰了多少金額罰了多少金額"},{"start":4701.275,"end":4729.15,"text":"這個是一年的價格一年還是從2018到現在應該是從2018到現在2018到現在抓到四十幾件罰了一百多萬報告委員這是自貿港區的部分因為它是依照自貿港區設置管理條例法還有貿易法的那多少貿易法的這個部分要貿易署這邊有所以我可以說部長今天來這邊報告寫的都很好看"},{"start":4730.646,"end":4750.685,"text":"不要供給本地做不到一年這個事情會嚴重影響到台灣未來美國如果對台灣界定他關稅該繳多少這會影響到台灣重大的產業所以今天這件事情絕對不是在這邊說一說文章講一講寫一寫很漂亮自貿港區2018到現在七年啊"},{"start":4754.392,"end":4757.617,"text":"40幾件100多萬你認為這有可能嗎我想這個部分也跟委員報告我們會擴大查查的範圍也就剛剛就說原來我們是針對他301這個高關稅可不可以每兩個月或是三個月給財政委員一個報告說你們有查獲多少"},{"start":4770.675,"end":4777.782,"text":"每兩個月提一個報告也可以我們把我們的各項的做法也可以提報對 要把你們已經查獲多少做的怎麼樣處罰做一個統計表統計數量給我們可以嗎可以 私貿港區的部分採訪是海關來採訪"},{"start":4785.971,"end":4796.522,"text":"那貿易法的部分要請貿易署這邊協助來統計數目對啊 我經濟部那邊有聽到啊這個也要一起做啊最後再一個問題說你們報告裡面講說鼓勵民眾檢舉有沒有考慮給獎金"},{"start":4803.025,"end":4815.001,"text":"市產地抓獲 有罰款嘛那對於檢舉的這個民眾有沒有給獎金 增加誘因啊不然幹我什麼事 我為什麼要去檢舉報告委員 這部分我們來研議看看好 研議喔 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":4817.244,"end":4817.644,"text":"請戴思寶召委質詢"},{"start":4841.808,"end":4864.078,"text":"謝謝主席今天排這麼有水準的題目不錯 題目排得很好各位先進來有請我們的財政部的莊部長農業部的杜次長以及經濟部的江次長三位長官三位長官委員好"},{"start":4868.067,"end":4872.508,"text":"首先我請教農業部這次賴清德總統說跟美國談關稅從零開始 農民就開始緊張了農業談零的話 請問農業人口現在多少"},{"start":4890.001,"end":4903.647,"text":"報告委員 其實農業人口多少 你回答這問題我們現在是說我們有農保的農業嘛對不對農業人口多少了 農業人口多少因為其實我覺得這件事情其實不是不是 你沒有回答問題農業人口多少一個市場你都不知道"},{"start":4906.247,"end":4912.031,"text":"還是怎麼樣 農業人口你居然不知道你農業會市長咧實際從農多少 實際從農多少我會懷疑啊 現在Google都說實際從事農業的就業人口四成九萬啦"},{"start":4924.284,"end":4938.875,"text":"啊農業戶的76萬戶啦啊在農業戶裡面的人口233萬佔總人口10%啦差不多 差不多有啊你農業戶的廠商你不懂我們加入農保還有實際從農的有夠漏氣的 實際從農的49萬啊目前是這樣是啊 我跟你說你這三個廠商你在做咧怎麼這樣啊我問你啦真的把 把關稅"},{"start":4953.366,"end":4966.121,"text":"當我們要變零的話 大家要抓狂啊這樣從業人口有幾十萬人會抓狂啊其實農業對台灣的重要性 其實大家都知道不只農民知道 不止我們知道所以你怎麼樣 你堅持說不可以為零你要講出來啊你要講出來 請你大聲講出來 農業"},{"start":4974.158,"end":4997.792,"text":"我跟你講喔 即便我們加入WTO全世界在談零關稅 目標就是希望是零關稅都要保護全國 全世界的農業 都在保護他們當地的農民很重要的謝謝委員支持 其實本來在談判 不管是在WTO所以你要大聲講啊賴總統講的零 包括農業你這句 你敢不敢講應該這樣說 以農業為最優先 絕對保障他們最大的利益"},{"start":5003.049,"end":5025.626,"text":"董事長你再講一遍說農業的部分如果零關稅我們不接受可以嗎?說一遍應該不是這樣說啦我們所謂的談判其實一定是以台灣最優先那以農業部但是保障台灣的農業農民為最優先所以你不能接受農產品是零嘛還是這樣美國要來那個雞棒棒啊"},{"start":5026.886,"end":5045.071,"text":"磅磅雞腿啊 20%咧 20%應該是這樣說啦應該是這樣說 不會全部都變成零所以有機會變成零 那你厲害農民起來抗議喔 我剛才說了喔就業人口有49萬喔但是農戶裡面的人口有230幾萬喔這是10%的人口喔別說你如果來70萬 你就把他罪了喔"},{"start":5054.597,"end":5059.019,"text":"想好喔這個就是賴清德總統啊等於貴哥跟人家談啦一下子又要犧牲農民的權利啊好啦 請經濟部的江市長你可以回去了"},{"start":5070.525,"end":5079.855,"text":"都不曉得我對你有失望的我又問三不知居然能夠發生在你國管農業部的做這麼大的事 又什麼都不知道大嘴苦苦的這樣而已 還會這樣來 我請教請問我們跟美國開始談了沒有關稅 關稅"},{"start":5088.894,"end":5114.9,"text":"開始談了沒有我們都已經準備好了我們是ready to talk但是not talk yet我們都可以隨時的所以還沒有嘛居然有媒體來嚇說我們跟以色列第一批的英台灣現在被抓到 不是嘛第一批美國要談的是日本 韓國 印度 英國 澳洲第一波嘛"},{"start":5115.919,"end":5141.168,"text":"請問妳知道因為第一波什麼時候要談?這個韓國是下個禮拜根據媒體報導韓國的禮拜日本是明天明天印度呢?印度是之前之前有有談過英國呢?英國英國英國的部分也是之前的總理有去澳洲呢?澳洲 澳洲澳洲 sorry"},{"start":5146.769,"end":5172.923,"text":"澳洲我...不知道你們掌握一下啦齁我請教你談的結果可以不可以讓老百姓說我們談的結果大概就是落在10%到30%到20%之間是不是這樣子報告委員我們會爭取國家最大的利益而且一定要保護我國產業的利潤利那是什麼那是什麼 你說這聽不懂"},{"start":5174.604,"end":5185.966,"text":"談判的過程我們會積極的來幫我們我們要結果嘛 你談出什麼嘛他現在來講是基準的所有全世界國家最少課10%現在請問你台灣到美國課幾%你是外貿的現在是10%現在過去了 10%以前了10%以前課多少要看個別的產品"},{"start":5199.677,"end":5215.76,"text":"大概是百分之二點幾到百分之三八啦 剋三八啦這個叫不當基礎 剋三八啦所以現在來講我們賣到美國是一千一百多億對不對 到美國去了一千一百多億美金"},{"start":5217.011,"end":5229.575,"text":"然後剋3% 過去剋3% 現在要剋10%一來就損失7%這就是為什麼莊部長很明快地第一次回答我的時候說我們的稅損就75億美金是從這裡來的啦7.5億7.5億美金7.5億喔 你7.5億要怎麼省來來來 部長要怎麼說"},{"start":5240.397,"end":5264.126,"text":"7.5億要怎麼省呢我想跟委員報告我說7.5億是指說以113年美國進口到我國的實際的貨物來按照我們所課徵的關稅113年是7.5億美金那你跟我講的不一樣啊你跟我講的不一樣啊我是問我們到美國去是1100多億美金現在要多課7%啊當然就七十幾億啦"},{"start":5266.943,"end":5289.014,"text":"我現在講對法情報部長還是講說看看各個產品有不同的不是不是啦平均AverageAverage是沒有錯的所以就是現在原來3%現在他扣10%雖然沒有扣32%但是對我們來講立即的影響就是要損失了多給美國70幾億美金啦這個江部長 江次長你同意這樣說嗎"},{"start":5296.181,"end":5312.139,"text":"是 不過現在呢我們的出口商跟客戶呢都在協商看是不是還是有尤其是相關的自通訊產品是有客戶端來繳交相關的當然啦你個別可能低了但是Average我跟你講Average再請教中部長啊"},{"start":5313.508,"end":5336.432,"text":"現在大家看了 像美國要我們什麼 投資市場我們要投資的 大量的投資了除了台積電 大哥去了 二哥連電也要去了還有大量去買它的天然氣啊 這個石油啊阿拉斯卡那裡 要韓國 日本跟我們一起要蓋一個pipe啊 類似pipe一樣啊通到我們這邊 到時那裡開關一轉台灣的錢就進來 去美國啦還有將貿易障礙等等等等還有一條最近大家注意的"},{"start":5343.153,"end":5368.401,"text":"說真的不行就買美國一百年無息的公債啊部長你怎麼看政府的財政這個部分應該是屬於央行財政管理的我知道啦 但是以你財政管情的央行他這邊他是用他的所謂的外匯存體去做他的財務的部分他現在已經80%是都有利率的啦有值利率的是 他買貨不買我覺得央行這邊會做處理是"},{"start":5369.941,"end":5377.126,"text":"這個很嚴重喔 這個等於是買了會倒閉喔這個買了 如果真的買100年現在來說的話 我們還有3% 4%現在改成100年 來 我們來看一個第二個 請那個江市長 就可以請回了財政部 現在財政部的事情今年你們確定報稅到 延到6月嗎好 那我就給你算了啦你看 另外一張這個啊"},{"start":5396.927,"end":5405.42,"text":"財政部沒有時間限制喔只要你送來 隨時送來書面報告就可以解凍了國庫署兩案 戶稅署五區 國稅署五案官務署四案 國產署四案"},{"start":5412.189,"end":5425.205,"text":"一個月內送書面報告就可以解凍的財政部商案 國庫署兩案國庫署叫五區 五區國稅局一案關稅 關路署六案財政資訊中心兩案各位 看看這個數字啊財政部拜託啊 堵車啊"},{"start":5432.739,"end":5448.597,"text":"這些東西我們在翻前一頁去年的時候早就3月20號已經過了早就街東開街東就動了現在已經超過快一個月了還不滴出來大家都了解啦為了大罷沒我們再回去剛才那一頁"},{"start":5451.455,"end":5457.523,"text":"這麼多的案子 出面報告寫 報告就可以解凍連這個都不要寫 連這個都不要部長啊 你一方面分得上一頁一方面你就說 哎呀我可以6月才報稅就不好意思說 你錢這麼多喔"},{"start":5470.39,"end":5477.252,"text":"你們錢很多 解凍也不要解凍更何況你也不要報告不要來這裡報告什麼都不要去寫一個報告書名報告載你走 然後就解凍了居然這樣都可以配合大罷免莊部長啊政務官是中華民國的政務官不是民進黨的政務官啊不要作賤自己啊寫報告來這裡 回到那裡各位看官看清楚"},{"start":5500.468,"end":5523.349,"text":"財政部多門的配額大罷免連動書面寫幾個字就可以解凍的案子來在這裡都不理居然這個樣子部長您回答一下跟委員報告有關總預算的那個凍結案件那相關的提案內容我們財政部跟所屬都逐一在"},{"start":5523.829,"end":5545.165,"text":"核對然後提案內容然後書寫報告同時我們也會去再做盤點檢視是不是符合了有關解凍的一個要件譬如說有些案子他必須要直行完畢以後才可以提出來申請所以這個部分每個案子跟情況不同我們必須要去重新做一個盤點要符合這個也不要經過立法院的議員會什麼都不要你報告找人財政委員會就解凍了啊這樣的舉手之勞也都不做"},{"start":5551.649,"end":5566.778,"text":"讓人家瞧不起啊 裝不雜 我覺得不是這樣子我們非常地鄭重對這個案件最後還美國的政府官變成民進黨官 變成瞧不起最後一題 今天主席列的很有水準的題目台西產地 你稍微暫停一分鐘 讓我把這個講完"},{"start":5568.715,"end":5572.36,"text":"自由貿易港區啊 違規的轉運我都查得很仔細喔112年16件50萬 花50萬而已一件就花3萬多113年10件花40萬這就是非常可能犧牲地的"},{"start":5585.435,"end":5609.572,"text":"來抓一個Made in Taiwan的處理這個是 鐵牌啦我們有讀喔 我們的規定什麼叫犧牲地 不管從 比如說中國大陸從任何地方來台灣我們在加工 Value Added就是我們加工的一個級數超過35%就是Made in Taiwan這麼清楚 那我就請教部長低於35%是不是通通叫犧牲地"},{"start":5617.199,"end":5625.162,"text":"這個部分是有貿易署這邊他們在發生地許可證的時候來來來 經濟部的江市長你講一下 不好意思你給我講一下因為今天是週二的題目你們有規定在台灣進來不管從什麼地方來的產品只要我台灣加工的附加價值增加35%以上就不叫西產地否則就是西產地 是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5647.383,"end":5673.334,"text":"我們對於原產地的認定他有兩個標準第一個是他要轉換這個貨品號列稅號整個完全轉換就實質轉型另外一個呢他的在台灣的這個必須要有35%的這個附加價值也就是說換言之呢如果說你一些簡單加工啊切割包裝這種我們就不認不認為說這是符合那個都叫稀產地是不是這個應該跟"},{"start":5679.017,"end":5684.521,"text":"今天一名的主席就排喜產地亞這麼有水溫的題目我就問清楚什麼叫喜產地亞"},{"start":5686.563,"end":5713.792,"text":"你怎麼知道?習產地就是沒有經過實質轉型以及符合附加價值你們已經有了,只要附加價值,加工超過35%就是沒得台灣就是沒得台灣,其他都是鐵牌就是習產地,鐵牌就是習產地,人家不是嗎?是是嗎?所以低於35%就是習產地,確定這是WTO的共同,全世界共同的標準"},{"start":5714.81,"end":5722.374,"text":"就是local content要超過35%了好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝世保委員接著請郭國文委員質詢主席啊 我要先講一下我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久賴世保能不能稍微約束一下是 好再提醒一下賴世保委員"},{"start":5742.571,"end":5755.051,"text":"好謝謝主席有請那個莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長好那個我們那個莊部長江次長委員好"},{"start":5756.004,"end":5785.764,"text":"部長好 部長那個中國啤酒傾銷衝擊到台啤的員工的生計台啤公會來跟我澄清從竹南烏日散化的員工數從減少了三成到四成所以它的產業的衝擊傾銷造成市場被侵佔的情況底下是非常嚴重的現在我們在談席產地也有可能會被席產地我們可能看起來我們好像是加害者其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者"},{"start":5786.805,"end":5801.387,"text":"所以這個問題你們要去面對這個問題的過程當中應該從兩頭思考我們不要成為加害者我們也不要成為被害者中國啤酒就是這種狀況啊你們現在的反省銷調查現在什麼時候做出認定產業認定的部份經濟部什麼時候"},{"start":5803.578,"end":5825.549,"text":"不知道6月底本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定喔已經調查了已經在調查了那延長到什麼時候才要完成沒有延長就是按照我們規定的一個進程目前沒有延長經濟部在認定我會請經濟部認定要快一點啦好不好"},{"start":5826.229,"end":5851.534,"text":"是我們在進行損害市長你可能不清楚但是回去多了解一下再加快已經明明對台灣的產業已經造成這麼大的傷害這很明顯中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法把台灣的消費市場複地化把台灣的消費市場內地化不只是消費市場而已還有製造市場的部分你去看江市長你曉不曉得啊越南的部分有沒有在做不鏽鋼線啊"},{"start":5854.005,"end":5879.084,"text":"美國商務部的DOC調查過越南的不鏽鋼線其實使用是南韓進口的原料生產就我去了解過業者越南也沒有做不鏽鋼線的一個廠商那為什麼有高達這個一萬五千多噸從二零二三年到了這個二零二四年一萬八千多噸到現在三星級已經佔了15%都從越南進來的喔"},{"start":5881.618,"end":5906.078,"text":"都從雲南進來囉所以台灣的產業有多大的衝擊而且還有一個那個部長這不是經濟部的事情而已經濟部我看一副狀況外還在看那些數字你看我們就是因為這樣子的情況底下我們是被害者進口產地的時候彭署長在後面有沒有加上一個進口的產地證明"},{"start":5910,"end":5937.845,"text":"報告委員 那個進口產地要不要付產證那個別的貨物都有不同的規定對 就我知道有些產品就類似這不鏽鋼線的部分是不用的是不用的所以說越南進來你就是以為越南做 不是越南根本沒有那個產你沒有個產品溯源的機制嘛對啊結果搞了半天它越南是被洗產地的洗了產地越南成為加害者台灣的業者變受害者"},{"start":5939.141,"end":5961.364,"text":"主長你要去了解你要透過這種加入一個進口審查產地的證明才能夠避免台灣的產業被加害者同意嗎同意同意要去加強還有現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢這種就等於製造市場的被內地化"},{"start":5962.621,"end":5986.665,"text":"這樣的情況底下齁 我跟你講情況要請那個部長還有經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組你們看起來我們被我們起產地好像我們是加害者其實我們被害者的項目我們才一併的要去調查啊部長 你們同意不是這個不修剛線而已啊其他的署長剛剛有講很多都是不用付的你根本不清楚"},{"start":5988.288,"end":5996.992,"text":"不清楚結果站在經濟部你要保護產業對不對台灣的產業對不對你要保護員工的就業機會對不對這樣的情況底下你們要不要組一個調查群組來調查群組兩位"},{"start":6000.684,"end":6022.275,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來把這個事情來做一個好的處理避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化消費市場被內地化製造市場被內地化還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都會被內地化那個莊部長我再讓你看一個數字最近大家有在討論這個電商的問題"},{"start":6024.396,"end":6051.038,"text":"這中國電商也有傾銷的問題這傾銷的數字我讓你看一下中國從2022年到2024年因為他用低價傾銷什麼方式就補助運費嘛99塊以下的人民幣不用運費的情況底下這種變相的低價傾銷的方式以至於讓他的整個市佔率高達64.4%而且你如果再加上香港再加上澳門"},{"start":6052.765,"end":6061.794,"text":"整個進口的這一個電商的部分港中澳 中港澳加起來超過八成八 將近九成這也是很清楚的把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果嘛這會影響到什麼 影響到消費市場 影響到製造市場這非常嚴重啊"},{"start":6077.253,"end":6090.039,"text":"所以你去看類似這一種變相的這種補貼的方式達到低價請銷的一個目的的這種做法我要請問一下你有沒有類似反請銷的制裁方式 有沒有"},{"start":6092.179,"end":6111.657,"text":"部分因為都是小的包裹不同的消費者這個部分然後他的貨品也很分散大部分什麼生活上的一些小東西或者是小的家電之類的這個部分那當然這個部分所謂的第一個是小包裹的量快速成長而且透過我們的海運快遞進來你現在在描述現狀我在問你如何解決問題你一直在描述現狀"},{"start":6116.18,"end":6142.106,"text":"現階段來說我們的免稅額度是兩千元這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化其他的國家沒有這種低價請銷的情況有低價請銷的中國就把它降為一千或者其他國家有低價請銷我們要把它降為一千有沒有可能是委員這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮這個部分本來就是目前我們在你們要納入計畫喔這要差別待遇因為要用這種方式遏止這種當的請銷嘛對不對"},{"start":6145.647,"end":6151.273,"text":"對國內的產業也會受到傷害我同意委員的觀點你知道淘寶在幾年前一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭只有三次要進入投審會都沒有通過就他轉個彎用什麼方式他用下一個廣告公司"},{"start":6170.441,"end":6185.145,"text":"用廣告公司來達到營運的事實啊就在廣告公司營運的事實的情況底下你知道嗎這種廣告公司進來這又是100%由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的叫香港這個淘寶國際產業結果呢他在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊"},{"start":6191.354,"end":6208.022,"text":"你完全拿他沒轍嗎結果你知道嗎這會變成什麼早期有一段時間我們的這個電商的各自外流就達成詐騙犯案的結果嘛所以這裡頭有牽扯到各自的管理還有牽扯到什麼因為違禁商品上架的問題你完全沒有辦法管理他"},{"start":6209.885,"end":6220.535,"text":"市長 這問題要怎麼處理第一個 你要去思考這個各自的問題要去跟書發布來做個協調總共有高達多少我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅的商品高達3337萬個比我們人口數還多1000萬如果以六次滿額來計算的話你至少有556萬人來使用淘寶"},{"start":6236.977,"end":6260.005,"text":"就是各自的人數是如此之多喔市長這非常嚴重喔你要怎麼處理我們會跟數位部來做不是數發部處理而已你不是跟數發部講而已還要跟他講你要如何落地監管的問題嘛他等於繞個彎經過你的投審思嘛對不對這種情況底下是不是要考慮廢止淘寶國際產業的這個投資許可"},{"start":6263.206,"end":6282.876,"text":"我們核准淘寶的話因為它是電子資訊服務業就是如同剛才委員所說的它去年的雙十一的時候有做了相關的廣告其實我們經濟部已經對於這一家公司進行了相關的裁罰相關的裁罰不夠啦對不對它的盈利也這麼大你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少"},{"start":6284.09,"end":6308.101,"text":"我們而且呢除了這個以外我們要求他要改正如果沒有改正呢如果連續的情況底下他明明就是這樣營業的方式啊他繞個彎啊你必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對啦否則的話你這個投審會的功能就不在啦就等被架空了不是嗎必要的時候我們可以要求他撤資好必要的時候要求撤資我就等你這句話好最後一個部分喔那個"},{"start":6309.266,"end":6336.181,"text":"你知道那個部長上一次有關於這個Anytech的部分新加坡的這個資金很難辨識他進來以後變化股權香港更難辨識這種香港更難辨識的情況底下有一些進來之後的這一個部分的資金的資本屬性的轉化的過程當中有沒有可能一個至親的機制那個次長這個部分我要請你跟那個陸委會溝通一下因為今天陸委會沒有來"},{"start":6337.779,"end":6356.858,"text":"也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定以前港澳資基本上我們把它視為外資還把它視為第三地喔對不對可是現在隨著港澳內地化的情況底下中國的屬性越來越高這資本屬性應該是不同這種不同的情況底下它隱含的就是中資的色彩未來越高嘛"},{"start":6357.538,"end":6368.595,"text":"那這個部分你有沒有可能以前以港資澳資澳資進來的這些人你要求他類似像陸配一樣自清一下說我呢基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權有沒有可能那個次長"},{"start":6369.537,"end":6395.985,"text":"有的我們對於這些業者其實都要他們來做切結我們也很擔心是假外資真中資的情形所以這個部分現在有進行切結然後未來在股權變動的時候我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動從現在開始要求起我們已經開始了最根本的方式你們應該跟陸委會講清楚港澳條例該改要改"},{"start":6397.796,"end":6403.827,"text":"港澳之間的這個資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下我們要把它視為中資來看待你同不同意"},{"start":6404.781,"end":6428.033,"text":"是我們再跟陸委會來進行相關討論好好最後我再請那個部長說一下因為天然災害的結果有很多青龍的權益也受損沒有收入天然災害的結果然後有一些資金的一些貸款的部分請部長好好思考一下該優惠應該有優惠該展期應該讓他展期請那個部長回去思考一下好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝郭委員謝謝部長接下來請賴委員會員質詢"},{"start":6439.212,"end":6444.699,"text":"謝謝主席有請財政部部長還有經濟部農業部次長請財政部莊部長以及經濟部和農業部的兩位次長"},{"start":6456.351,"end":6473.763,"text":"我們針對川普總統在這一波的一個關稅關稅的一個議題其實我們很普遍在網路上有一個美國解放日他就講說川普不會讓任何的一個地方排除在外"},{"start":6474.423,"end":6498.037,"text":"跟美國的一個對等關稅的一個議題排除在外甚至就是說攔戟的這個企業它也是一樣所以就是說在這麼嚴重的一個對等關稅的一個問題裡頭然後又有這麼多的一個不確定性川普他可能今天早上講了到了中午以後又改了"},{"start":6498.777,"end":6516.102,"text":"好這個美國解放日不讓任何一個地方排除在外那我們在上週五我們的卓院長也講到了我們事前的一個預防事前的一個預防然後就是事中的一個嚴查事後的一個嚴華那他特別強調台灣不能成為世界貿易的一個破口當然我想就是台灣將"},{"start":6525.844,"end":6543.992,"text":"嚴謹的一個預防稀產地NIT就是NIT所以我們要啟動還請銷的一個調查這個毋庸置疑當然我們都可以看到政府的一個決心但在這裡我要請教經濟部次長次長你剛才針對的就是"},{"start":6546.26,"end":6571.06,"text":"郭國文委員的這個小兒包裹就是說我們知道這個小兒包裹長期其實我可以這樣講啊長期就是說我們的關務署施上一直認為說這個小兒的包裹就是說在財政委員會裡頭有很多的委員不斷的一個質詢可是顯然你們沒有把這個事情看到非常的一個嚴重啊"},{"start":6571.881,"end":6592.755,"text":"那美國川普總統他在4月9號簽署的一個行政命令他講說從中國進口價值800美元的這個以下的小額包裹他加徵關稅從貨值的30%增到90%那甚至港媒的一個報導他措施是在5月2號"},{"start":6593.976,"end":6610.819,"text":"那個生效就是等於是香港的也一樣生效那台灣的呢剛才你跟郭委員講你說淘寶就是才華改正還有惠子許可甚至必要的時候撤資你有沒有這樣子的一個決定呢"},{"start":6613.077,"end":6640.566,"text":"報告委員其實我們在二月份已經找了國內的相關的電商平台電商平台非常的樂意跟政府來配合因為我們經濟部對於相關有一千多項的這個產品都有規定要因時檢驗所以電商平台現在已經跟我們的經濟部有做連線任何進口的產品好市長如果他不配合的時候必要的時候有沒有辦法撤資你有沒有這樣的一個決心呢"},{"start":6641.837,"end":6669.705,"text":"我跟你講你如果不撤它的話我們國內很多零售業就是會先被撤了那經濟部一個這個監督我們全國經濟的這個部門那如果這樣子放任不作為的話我相信這個台灣的社會其實基本上是會非常非常的有更大的一個反撲對於淘寶在台灣因為他所從事的廣告業務跟他所登記的項目不一樣"},{"start":6670.527,"end":6691.114,"text":"我剛才有跟委員報告我們已經給予裁罰然後命期改正如果他不改正的話我們就會進行撤資的動作這個部分已經通知了該公司所以期限到什麼時候目前的話期限還沒有到期限到什麼時候在今年的上半年上半年6月30號"},{"start":6693.952,"end":6716.05,"text":"這個確切的日期容我回去再去好 會後給資料好不好好 接著我們請那個次長你請回我接著請那個杜次長杜次長我想就是說針對的這個台灣的一個那個就是是不是會變為一個息產地那其實我們比較擔心的農業的一個議題那相對的就是說我先從這個吳國瑜來講起"},{"start":6718.132,"end":6737.208,"text":"那吳國瑜其實現階段我們看不到他大概要五個月可能到了八九月的時候他現在剛剛放苗下去嘛那有沒有一個比較好的方式因為顯然就是說中國一定會利用利用台灣來洗產地你們有沒有什麼比較積極的一個作為呢"},{"start":6739.67,"end":6761.096,"text":"謝謝委員關心,因為農業是我們最重要的一個產業吳國瑜剛提到吳國瑜現在都在放苗而已,所以我們有要做養殖登記,放養登記這是第一點那第二點其實就接下來要出去的這個部分一定要加強溯源,包括它的流向跟到最終的產品,這個我們都會來做對,溯源還有就是產地"},{"start":6763.817,"end":6787.604,"text":"我們有一個管控他要來做定期所以除了這些以外有沒有比較一個積極的方式就是說你的這個產品的一個檢驗的機制我們看到了那你驗收就是查驗加工廠的一個進出口量還有你要提高中國的水產品的一個關稅那這些有沒有辦法做到呢"},{"start":6788.945,"end":6802.519,"text":"就進口的部分其實當然在邊境包括海關包括我們還包括衛福部他說那個殘留檢驗第二個是在我們國內生產的部分從源頭剛從放養要去做登錄到最終產品要去注意那委員在"},{"start":6804.281,"end":6819.919,"text":"檢報上面提到的這個如果能不能透過其他的檢驗包括來源的DNA標示或是同位數我覺得這個農業部要做這些檢測都完全會這個完全沒有問題啊我們有幾個行啊包括茶葉啦 五齡啦但是我跟你講"},{"start":6821.439,"end":6822.66,"text":"我的蝴蝶蘭幾乎就是團滅"},{"start":6841.857,"end":6864.362,"text":"你看他這樣子他面對的他最大的一個對手他的越南還有就是說他的這個荷蘭幾乎都是毫無招架之力我們不然是零關稅嘛現在10%對業者來講其實是個蠻大的壓力在所以你有把握是10%嗎那你有把握說在這個90天以後而不是"},{"start":6865.422,"end":6891.819,"text":"還是維持10%嗎不管怎麼樣對我們來講一定有影響所以我們的蘭花業者包括我們做很多農產品的業者我們一定要讓他第一個要渡過這個難關是所以這個金融支持第二個一定要提升體質讓他可以永續經營到底第一年就是免稅他所有借的免利息不是免稅免利息就是第一年的免利息然後一個就是一個廠商我們提供五千萬五千萬的一個借貸這個有沒有確定"},{"start":6893.76,"end":6911.715,"text":"應該是這樣,我們一定要來金融支持,至少要讓他渡過這個難關我要很確定的,你們自己到地方去的,都寫得很清楚每一副是五千萬,每一個廠商是五千萬,利息減免一年就是非常確定的"},{"start":6913.697,"end":6933.728,"text":"一定要先讓這些就是我們所有的養殖部還有就是我們所有的蘭花產業每一個人就是把信心先把它安定下來還有你的貿易商這個貿易商這個確實也是一個非常重要我們必須要就是有非常強大的一個信心喊話"},{"start":6935.77,"end":6963.007,"text":"我們現在農業支持希望貿易商不要給錢給辭變價所以我們有一個平台就是說如果真的碰到有刻意壓低價格一定要來通報我們來到處理所以我還是在重複的跟那個次長再講一次就是第一年的利息第一年的利息是免的還有就是我們每一戶最高的一個補貼額度是五千萬這個是絕對確定的對不對利息減免一定有然後讓他能夠有這個資金周轉這件事情也一定會有"},{"start":6964.088,"end":6969.173,"text":"最高的額度是五千萬啊你們自己寫得這麼清楚要認帳啊"},{"start":6972.51,"end":6977.793,"text":"要認賬好不好好謝謝委員謝謝市長我想就是說針對的就是說這個還請銷還制息產地的一個問題接著我要請問財政部長就是說部長有沒有機會針對這些商品的一個還請銷的一個標準你們最基本的一個判讀的標準到底是什麼"},{"start":6995.546,"end":7023.669,"text":"我們會有兩個第一個就是經濟部會做調查然後還有財政部也會調查分別就是第一個有沒有傾銷的事實第二個有沒有對國內產業造成實質的損害這兩個一定要確認以後然後送到我們關稅審議小組裡面來做確認好我想這個非常的明確啦非常的明確那你們也一直就是說一直這樣子的開始著力的在調查了"},{"start":7025.067,"end":7044.181,"text":"這進行了嗎是的 目前來說跟剛剛報告就是有的已經課徵了反傾銷稅就在我們的報告裡面有八件那另外有兩件目前正在調查中就是大陸產製的進口啤酒還有特定的熱壓扁壓鋼瓶在進行反傾銷的調查中是"},{"start":7045.463,"end":7060.31,"text":"所以就是說這兩個這兩個就是特別你提出來的還在調查就是麥芽的那個釀造的一個啤酒還有就是那個特定的那個熱壓扁壓的一個鋼瓶我想這幾個產品我們就是說這兩個樣態的一個產品你們必須要就是用最高的一個謹慎的一個態度不然台灣的三業真的都會倒啊"},{"start":7070.854,"end":7071.015,"text":"尤其是農業會先倒"},{"start":7075.67,"end":7100.058,"text":"所以這個是大家最擔心的以後我們可能吃不到就是最好最平價的台灣米我們會吃到了可能就是米糕米米喔這個是跟我民生息息相關的我們也吃不到最便宜的就是最便宜的這些我們台灣所生產的這些農產品所以部長請加油是 謝謝委員我想這個盤錦蕭調查我們會加速的處理是 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":7105.523,"end":7106.944,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝部長 謝謝次長謝謝嘉賓委員 接著請鍾嘉賓委員質詢我要上廁所"},{"start":7134.585,"end":7145.67,"text":"主席 蔡黨委員先進 列席的政府金融市長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請財政部莊部長 經濟部跟農業部的江次長和杜次長是 三位長官委員好部長好 兩位次長好小時候聽過一個說法 說"},{"start":7158.735,"end":7176.13,"text":"媽媽總是疼愛兒子,有一個阿婆,我講台語應該聽得懂啦她一個兒子呢,大兒子呢在擺地攤,小兒子呢在賣雨傘她每天都愁眉苦臉,人家問她為什麼?她說喔,好天我就歡樂我們的小孩子的風聲不會出去了啊,下雨天我的大兒子我就擺攤子啦"},{"start":7181.107,"end":7210.029,"text":"那人家說你要轉念啊你要說天氣好的話 你要想那個擺地攤的生意好啊萬一下了雨呢 賣雨傘呢 有人買啊部長你會怎麼想謝謝委員 我想委員的意思就是說其實我們對於任何來的一個變化其實國際政經情勢的變化是一直存在的也就是說面對變化的時候我們就要你這樣的回答好像我在星海羅盤啊我在問的就是說關稅到底是出口影響還是進口影響我們現在搞不清楚啊 來我們看一下"},{"start":7211.53,"end":7225.033,"text":"高關稅暫緩 結果呢 誒 本來柯基業本來擔心會被課稅啊 現在出貨潮啊 有沒有搶單啊 要搶船有沒有這種情況90天嘛 趕快把貨出一出不曉得90天後會不會提高關稅嘛 部長是不是這樣那我們屏東的農業廠也是這樣子啊剛剛那個人擔心南華賣不出去我們還擔心我們的鬼頭掏出不去啊現在是怎樣 誒 搞不好可以跟我們買多一點 要金融支持部長 是不是這樣子"},{"start":7240.461,"end":7269.333,"text":"金融支持所以金融支持下一頁台灣做過產業資金需求大增啊你看看本來超關稅暫停訂單又說呢哎呀大量訂單永路暫緩90天於是要採購原料產能全開需不需要資金是需要的那好我的問題很快來請下一頁是否已經掌握台灣各產業受美國對等關稅暫延90天的影響現況以及各產業資金緊急需求能夠及時到位有沒有把錢子彈銀彈準備好了"},{"start":7270.339,"end":7290.432,"text":"如果他擴大融資能來得及嗎這樣跟委員報告這個部分對於各產業的影響我們都一直在關注而且也跟他們座談那對於資金的部分都會準備好了也都會準備是880億本來是又遇到什麼出口出不去的他訂單被取消他的融資會斷現在是怎樣他要搶單要趕快有錢去買貨是不是這樣"},{"start":7294.574,"end":7318.582,"text":"好那我們來看一下齁其實呢我們來看其實目前呢我們來看到嚴防中國製品透過供應鏈從台灣銷美國美國都在防啊現在美國跟中國的145%他不能進來很擔心透過台灣再過去是不是這樣子所以今天都在問西產業的事情嘛好那我們來看過去怎麼做來川普1.0之前在18年之前"},{"start":7319.585,"end":7329.097,"text":"台灣怎樣 台灣有關鍵領主権利用中國東南沿海的其他的領主権和他內地便宜的勞動力然後消旺美國 是不是這樣"},{"start":7329.963,"end":7358.108,"text":"但是川普1.0之後呢開始調整了首先台灣 越南就起來了越南有便宜的勞動力但是在我們的半導體電子產業的部分昆山 蘇州 上海這邊的生態系很難把零組件移過來所以用貨運的方式到越南關鍵零組件從台灣去然後在越南組成後出口到美國這是這幾年發生的情況但是台灣有因應啊台灣因應了嘛自貿港"},{"start":7359.109,"end":7363.667,"text":"自貿港是叫境內關外 什麼意思江市長 什麼意思 自貿港"},{"start":7365.663,"end":7373.93,"text":"也就是在自貿港區因為他沒有進入到台灣本島所以他直接在自貿港區進行相關的加工是的 剛剛有那個我們吳秉樂委員問到說你看2024年兩岸海運直航貴量300萬破新高欸大量的中國來的貨物來到我們的自貿區然後呢 加值35%就成為是台灣出口的到美國這就是自貿港啊"},{"start":7393.476,"end":7395.543,"text":"美國防不防 防啊 我們來看一下"},{"start":7396.923,"end":7424.896,"text":"我們桃園航空自由貿易區自貿區2024年3兆貿易值桃園貢獻2.4兆但是裡面還有電子 生醫 自行車2025年還要成立一個智慧車輛園區但是它這裡面有提到什麼經濟部在過去根據自由港的條例16條歐盟 英國 美國的自行車電腐自行車 鋁製輪胎框部分的鋼鐵產品要先核准"},{"start":7426.121,"end":7454.899,"text":"本來自貿區你怎麼來我不管你嘛我加值35%之後我就銷美國嘛為什麼這些東西要先告訴我因為對方要知道啊你們到底這些是台灣自己做的還是從中國來的是不是市長自貿區是不是人家也在防跟委員說明喔我們現在對於自行車還有工具機需要說我的問題是自貿區人家是不是也在防你是是也要防嘛好所以川普2.0怎麼樣呢川普2.0這套自貿港啊"},{"start":7456.613,"end":7485.452,"text":"他沒有用了剛剛那個吳委員問得很清楚了他現在直接只要你的成分超過3成5是中國的就是中國的然而越南也麻煩了越南如果用中國的零組件加上勞動力台灣的關鍵再銷往美國也被擋所以會變成什麼川普2.0未來怎樣會要在台灣可能要找到其他像菲律賓零組件跟勞動力充沛的地方將關鍵零組件送過去再銷往美國"},{"start":7487.076,"end":7505.961,"text":"江市長,這就是郭部長的境外觀內,是不是這樣子?是的好,很清楚喔,來所以我們請杜市長那一天呢,星期天,葛奎帶著我們陳部長去他說毛豆,毛豆就是那個阿伯阿伯是賣雨傘那裡擺地攤的小孩啊"},{"start":7506.977,"end":7527.237,"text":"本來我們台灣的毛豆一半是出口一半是內用出口的部分七成到日本品質高的 細的一半的到美國現在美國跟中國開始打仗了所以我們的毛豆一樣可以銷美國但是你知道嗎美國市場進口毛豆最多從哪個國家進口中國對"},{"start":7530.427,"end":7551.759,"text":"中國毛豆不能來啦,美國是不是需要更多的台灣毛豆?但是中國的毛豆不能進美國,他會去哪裡?他會去日本所以我們部長說什麼?我們要救日本啊,變成美國啊美國的市場要把他搶了,但是日本的市場要救好掉啊所以我們貿易的關稅會有這樣的變化,我們看下一頁"},{"start":7553.404,"end":7576.921,"text":"所以剛剛舉到的境外關內有沒有可能台灣的主陪苗利用菲律賓在他的自貿區然後呢他的土地他的氣候的條件我們出口到日本其實這個是什麼在解決賴委員的問題啊蘭花蘭花如果我們到關稅要提高10%那有沒有可能菲律賓的關稅要低我們到菲律賓去做自貿區的轉運你同意嗎"},{"start":7577.608,"end":7597.234,"text":"不放棄任何機會不放棄任何機會講得很好表示我也同意也不同意看看可能再說我們往下一頁看我現在講一個部長講一個中小型的運載火箭我們屏東九鵬現在列為國家的火箭發展場址現在火箭做什麼用呢火箭不是打飛彈而已火箭打低軌道的通訊衛星"},{"start":7598.786,"end":7626.068,"text":"SPEX的火箭一次可以載143顆的衛星它等於是團客要佈建一個衛星通訊網要一個SPEX但是台灣是中小型的火箭像什麼 像小黃如果你要換更新 換修的要重所以部長你來想像一下如果台灣未來我們有很多的訂單要我們幫它發射運送到衛星到空中我們需不需要進口大量的火箭"},{"start":7628.099,"end":7653.435,"text":"那你覺得火箭可以跟誰買?跟誰買?那我覺得我們可以找這方面比較專精的國家買其實航太產業是美國到目前的出口大象過去我們只會想要跟他買波音載我們的國際旅客現在想辦法去跟他買火箭或者說火箭的關鍵的像火箭引擎用來服務那些低軌通訊衛星需要帶排灣來運載的"},{"start":7655.464,"end":7678.632,"text":"所以航運的市場不是只有貨運,不是只有民用航空,還有什麼?太空,再往下看。所以我們現在思考的是說,如果我們現在還在談洗產地,那只是眼前。最好的方式是怎樣?要瞄準產業未來的需求,提高台灣在這個產業的佈局。川普說什麼?川普說美國要再工業化。"},{"start":7679.807,"end":7702.908,"text":"部長你認為川普再工業化的意思是說汽車回美國製造 造船回美國製造美國從過去不知道的球鞋 球拍都有美國製造 是這個意思嗎當然他也希望製造業能夠回流到美國他的再工業化他只挑好的啦中高階的回美國 留在美國中低階的其他的有案發包啊"},{"start":7704.031,"end":7716.281,"text":"所以我們台灣能夠要繼續承接運動鞋、紡織品、自行車、筆電嗎?沒有我們要跟美國爭取一個它所謂的中高階的有岸分工就是你"},{"start":7717.54,"end":7734.177,"text":"波音客機有沒有可能有些領土建造這邊生產又或者說我要需要很多的中小型的運載火箭你的火箭引擎賣給我我跟你分工或者無人機產業無人機產業史神等級最高啊那是軍用級的啊美國不會讓出去"},{"start":7734.958,"end":7761.646,"text":"但是像大疆中國的大疆那種中低階的無人機他當然希望你台灣能夠接下來我美國需要的時候我跟你中低階的跟你無人機跟你台灣買我不需要跟中國買部長你同不同意這樣說法是的所以呢未來的產業需求需要資金能力土地跟工業好像下一頁所以有沒有評估好我們未來產業需求你去台灣產業全球市佔率的方案次長兩位次長你們有沒有回去跟你們部長講是不是要評估這個"},{"start":7763.522,"end":7782.152,"text":"是的 我們已經在進行評估我們也希望往高科技等等相關的產業發展好 那杜市長您呢 農業部呢是 就農業永續一定要做這樣子的評估好 那部長 莊部長這裡面的資金 人才 土地跟公共建設五缺財政部要負責什麼我下面舉一個例子這是一個台灣的離電"},{"start":7783.544,"end":7809.374,"text":"離岸風機他要本土化 策略上本土化所以這些來台灣幫我們做離岸風機的他都要跟本土的一些譬如說水下基礎他要跟他合作那麼因此台灣這幾年除了海事工程團之外我們水下基礎除了四季鋼之外還有其他的公司都在做他們趕快興建廠房希望承接這樣的一個訂單他是需要融資但是現在廠房不是馬上可以蓋好"},{"start":7810.294,"end":7821.952,"text":"銀行說你要有合約要有人跟你買水價基礎我才跟你放款結果廠商說你的廠房還沒蓋好我不能給你訂單那這時候卡在什麼那融資是要幫助誰如果這時候融資不給"},{"start":7825.964,"end":7851.245,"text":"他廠房蓋不下去這樣人拿不到訂單 雞生蛋誕生雞所以有沒有發現到這個問題當我們要佈局未來的產業的時候這些新興的產業最需要的是什麼金融的支持 部長你同意嗎我覺得金融支持是有必要同時我們會透過這個所謂的信用保證的機制讓銀行可以更有一個風險的分擔信保機制目前在國"},{"start":7853.069,"end":7870.812,"text":"發會那邊有個國發基金有信保的機制那麼要評估哪些產業要納入信保請財政部跟國發要密切聯繫好不好是的好最後三點訴求不好意思主席第一請財政部因應台灣產業受美國對等關稅影響短期融資的資金需求的方案提出來可以嗎"},{"start":7871.846,"end":7893.082,"text":"是好請農業部跟經濟部說就在台的中在中的台商他撤出中國的中國之外後去進駐我們境外關內園區的輔導方案趕快去想今天你想搞一個境外關內那麼從中國撤出來台商怎麼輔導他們去要趕快準備江市長可以嗎可以都市長也想一下嗎是最後"},{"start":7894.06,"end":7910.831,"text":"請三個部會去想一下在全球去中供應鏈的重組之下台灣的產業升級以及擴產在訂單跟合約尚未明確的時候它的融資的需求的解決方案可能經濟部跟農業部要提出你們要輔導的業者他們的需求然後請財政部幫忙可以嗎是的好 謝謝"},{"start":7914.482,"end":7933.189,"text":"好 謝謝嘉賓委員 接著請李燕秀委員質詢那主席在這裡補充報告一下 李昆城委員質詢完畢我們休息十分鐘謝謝主席 我可不可以請財政部部長好 財政部部長好 部長"},{"start":7941.81,"end":7970.392,"text":"部長其實宗家濱委員剛剛提出來那三個最後的問題其實都是產業還有我覺得身為現在執政黨我覺得接下來十年二十年我們整個產業的發展的方向其實是非常關鍵現在所有的產業其實都在跟時間賽跑所以到底這些未來的發展方向因應的策略如何去一條龍式的去做解決恐怕我們要拿出更大的魄力來去做後續的協助"},{"start":7972.213,"end":8000.993,"text":"這是我剛剛聽到我要給您建議我們也希望可以看到那些更完整的包括時間點的報告因為如果報告出來沒有辦法真正解決問題那不過就是一份報告對產業來說政府還是沒有辦法幫助他更多的就是說你即便給我低利的一些租稅的優惠或貸款這些錢我還是要還我今年不用還我明年還是要還那當然是要還但是他如果沒有營收的話他如果沒有訂單的話他如何去還"},{"start":8002.233,"end":8030.63,"text":"所以这个是在很多产业界我听到的声音好 回过头来我还是要问一下部长就是说目前整个关税战的议题其实仍旧是全球所关注的那美国总统川普的变动其实最主要的核心其实就是把最主要他希望的产业链包括制造业相关的上下游还不只是高科技重要的对美国未来生产有利的整个劳动市场有利的产业有利的"},{"start":8030.97,"end":8043.539,"text":"都一併回到美國對台灣來說當然不只台積電他當然還是希望台積電上下最好是整個都過去但是對於台灣未來產業的空洞化我們如何去解決甚至是"},{"start":8044.693,"end":8062.76,"text":"台積電過去之後我們一定會有稅損因為過去台積電是我們最主要我們這個稅收很重要的一份收入那這個如何去做解決恐怕也是要恐怕部長也要後續要有一份更完整的報告跟說明那川普也再三的警告說增值稅"},{"start":8063.94,"end":8081.318,"text":"也是屬於現在非關稅障礙當中的一環增值稅也是他所關注的那除了增值稅之外營業稅還有包括貨物稅的部分他已經認定是屬於關稅障礙這是他都在關注的部分所以我想請問部長就是對於後續"},{"start":8085.482,"end":8112.857,"text":"貿易障礙這個部分我們有沒有去做後續的盤點包括貨物稅這個部分比如說汽車業那對我們的衝擊是什麼你有沒有一份完整的報告或者是一份完整的數字跟委員報告剛剛委員所提示的都非常具有一些建設性那我想對於美方我們要去談判已經美方所提出來除了屬於關稅的稅率之外還有非關稅的貿易障礙以及違規轉運這個"},{"start":8114.588,"end":8136.973,"text":"部分我們分為這三大個方向那對於這些他所關注的議題呢財政部以及相關的部會都已經研擬相關的一些因應的措施提供給我們的談判小組去做去做彙整或者是說他因應他們在談判的策略章當中的一些一些方案好一些方案我想這個部分你有因應的你一定有好幾個不同的版本這個因應的版本"},{"start":8140.535,"end":8159.356,"text":"後續對於財政部底下我們業館的重要業務有一定的衝擊嗎你一定也有一二三你希望他談的最好是三或者是一嘛對不對那對我們的衝擊你有多分析給他嗎對你財政部底下業館的主要業務在資料裡面我們一定都會有一些相關的分析的"},{"start":8160.202,"end":8164.504,"text":"所以你是有答案的這個部分我們都會有運營各種情境去給談判小組來作為他們談判之後的策略我們的相關資料都隨時會提供的那你有盤點那是不是也可以給立院呢"},{"start":8181.707,"end":8183.93,"text":"因為貨物稅擺在前面目前我們是25%到30%降到20%是怎麼樣降到15%是怎麼樣降到10%是怎麼樣我想因為這個數字是擺在那邊的"},{"start":8198.448,"end":8215.289,"text":"委員報告我想這個部分這個談判的部分我們是有給經貿小組來做他們的一個嚴厲的一個策略這個部分我覺得這是一個談判的一個策略不宜在外面就是大家都把牌都掀得這麼亮的這樣子我想還是要跟委員做這樣的說明是"},{"start":8217.833,"end":8229.668,"text":"談判的過程我們還是希望有機會讓我們立法院可以進一步了解到底整個對於後續的衝擊會是什麼可以有的說明我們還是希望私底下可以跟部長做溝通"},{"start":8231.95,"end":8247.597,"text":"貨物稅要不要調整但是我還是要提醒部長賴總統在選舉的過程當中提到他希望2050年我們可以達到淨零排碳當作目標我想你非常清楚這是部會要努力的方向2040年的時候就要達到電動小客車達到新售的車子裡面我們希望可以達到百分之百"},{"start":8256.5,"end":8270.825,"text":"那這當然是一個目標或許是選舉的口號但是我關注到就是說電動車掛牌的部分大概在去年只有賣出的部分大概只有8到10%那看起來2040年要達到"},{"start":8273.886,"end":8297.733,"text":"無論是要達到電動小客車達到百分之百用這個數字來看好像非常的困難不容易那解決的方案有沒有目標這個目標到底怎麼去訂定所以我也找出就是說目前其實電動車為什麼這麼不好推大家意願這麼低當然有幾個主要原因一個是充電樁不足就是很多地方要設充電樁有沒有這個空間都有很多"},{"start":8302.014,"end":8324.069,"text":"硬體跟軟體跟人之間溝通的問題另外一個就是車價過高還有電動車的續航里程除了電動車續航里程跟充電樁不足之外這不是你業館的業務但是車價過高跟我們就有一點關係譬如說我剛剛提到的貨物稅的部分要不要去做調整等等那目前我們看到"},{"start":8324.529,"end":8347.557,"text":"无论是油车或电动车我们来把这两个车来做比较的话我们电动车因为我们把它既定为未来的目标所以无论是在减免货物税的部分包括免牌照税的部分包括免燃料税的部分我们有相关的一些优惠的政策在里头但是对油车却没有接下来如果我们在贸易谈判过程当中货物税要调降"},{"start":8348.888,"end":8366.205,"text":"那未來可能電動車跟油車的差距就會越來越大因為調降是全部都調但因為我們電動車目前它本來就有優惠的政策在裡面140萬免稅所以未來如果整個都調降"},{"start":8371.551,"end":8390.748,"text":"兩種車子的車價差距就會越來越大所以我們未來我也支持電動車因為對於大環境是好的對於氣候變遷是好的所以未來這一塊我們會不會有新的租稅的相關的政策在裡頭去落實賴總統的政策去落實整個國際的潮流"},{"start":8392.454,"end":8402.001,"text":"我想這個部分您剛剛提到的電動車跟油車部分那目前電動車的貨物稅是零那使用牌照稅是屬於地方稅我們知道地方稅是零這個目的也就是要鼓勵消費者去買電動車對不對"},{"start":8407.765,"end":8429.191,"text":"你說成長的部分那當然涉及到諸多因素比如說充電樁的充足性或者不講這個我都清楚你不用再敘述就是說未來如果真的貨物稅整個都調降但是這個會造成油電車油車跟電動車的差距就會越來越大會縮小我們就看不到所謂電動車的租稅優惠政策在哪裡所以你們會不會再研議把140的門檻是不是再調整"},{"start":8433.712,"end":8442.54,"text":"我知道您的意思就是說如果說貨物稅一般的油車也調降它跟電動車之間的差距就縮小了它的努力性是不是就變得不夠強了我想委員持的是這個部分那委員建議我們這個部分會納入考慮這第一個問題第二個問題就是說後續包括我們現在跟美方正在談雙邊的優惠政策的部分"},{"start":8457.233,"end":8461.955,"text":"那我認為包括未來包括後續包括稅損的問題啦對台灣未來稅損的問題也會有所以這個部分我們要不要趁這一次的關稅談判當中把它一併去做更多的討論當然我們要評估就是說後續兩邊雙重課稅的部分的減免然後對我們的影響對於整個財政的收入的影響到底是什麼"},{"start":8482.805,"end":8498.634,"text":"然後趁這次關稅的談判包括赴美投資的一些企業的負擔還有包括美國來台灣投資的意願我們怎麼樣增加更多的誘因可能這個部分都要持續的去做盤點這是我要提醒部長的地方最後一點"},{"start":8500.054,"end":8518.127,"text":"我要請教部長 就是對於國安基金的擴編的部分 擴大規模的部分我們現在國安基金的規模是五千億那我有看到就是說 無論從媒體看到 或者是委員會提案有希望提到一兆的理由到底對於擴編國安基金的部分 你的態度是什麼"},{"start":8520.229,"end":8540.08,"text":"這個部分我們持開放的態度那妳的評估擴編到底是優點多還是缺點多 妳的顧慮是什麼妳的開放看起來是比較傾向支持的喔2000億加3000億 3000億就是基金的借款然後2000億是跟融資 目前是5000億嘛"},{"start":8542.402,"end":8547.987,"text":"另外就是四大基金的部分都沒有去動用都是利用那個2000但是從過去來我們看最後一張表過去我們有八次的動用過國安基金其實大概都除了第二項以巴衝突那時候我們動用了1227億還有2015年動用將近200億其實都平均下來都大概在300億左右沒有太大的"},{"start":8567.825,"end":8590.794,"text":"沒有超過 除了那兩次 第二次跟第六次在第二次跟第六次在18衝突的時候還有2015年的時候其他其實平均我算下來大概都在300億左右國安基金存在的目的其實不是要救股市是穩定金融市場所以有沒有這個需求我覺得恐怕都要做更多的思考部長你同意嗎"},{"start":8591.674,"end":8619.866,"text":"我想委員的提醒我們會注意因為過去也沒有用到這麼多因為提升了很多國安基金的國安基金擴編的目的如果有需要你支持的話那擴編的理由是什麼你如果覺得說我們不需要支持的話那擴編的理由因為第一個國安基金就是我們現在台灣的股票的一個市值跟成立的當時已經差距很大大概有差到9倍大概市值差不多近72"},{"start":8621.847,"end":8627.389,"text":"所以整個股市不穩定的時候或金融秩序不穩定的時候才需要做這個東西也就是說如果部長你支持五千億的國安基金必須要擴編到一兆很顯然的你也認為在國際市場上或未來在國際的國際社會上無論在政經上我們一定都面臨相當大的挑戰否則依照過去的潛力來看好像沒有我們都幾乎除了那兩次之外八次除了那兩次之外都沒有動用超過三百億"},{"start":8652.276,"end":8664.9,"text":"國安基金這個部分我們的授權執行秘書在做操盤的話我想他會非常謹慎的去動用然後也視我清楚真的我清楚所以我才把過去國安基金的次數跟金額都列出來其實幾乎說有一次超過300億其他說2000年來幾乎都沒有所以我才請教部長說到底國安基金擴編的理由到底在哪裡那如果必須要擴編很顯然是國際局勢政經局勢有很大的變化"},{"start":8681.906,"end":8695.77,"text":"很顯然如果要要除留可見你們也對於未來整體的國際局勢事實上你們是有很多的壓力或者是不看好的好以上謝謝謝謝燕秀接著請李坤成委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們請這個財政部莊部長好請莊部長"},{"start":8714.98,"end":8730.373,"text":"委員好部長好今天主要來說明報告有關席產地的問題我相信卓院長也說得很清楚MIT就是MITMIT絕對不能是MIC所以接下來因為針對了美國要對中國課的關稅高達145%所以我們現在會啟動嚴格的反傾銷的調查"},{"start":8739.961,"end":8756.369,"text":"事先防備 事中嚴查 事後嚴懲 不讓低價傾銷傷害台灣的產業安全我想這個左院長已經講得非常的清楚了那請教一下部長這邊是根據你們所提供的資料在2018年到2019年有關於這個洗產地的違規的樣態"},{"start":8762.672,"end":8787.419,"text":"這一年2018到2019只查到五件但是呢這個2019之後呢到2025年的3月底已經有裁罰388件其中數往美國有133件超過三分之一我不曉得這數據對不對數據齁因為裁罰的部分是根據貿易法來裁罰那我們是根據經濟部提供的資料來做彙整的那所以這個數據是正確的嗎請我們署長說明一下"},{"start":8792.475,"end":8813.888,"text":"報告委員 精確的數字還是要麻煩經濟部這邊提供那我跟委員報告就是說這是我們同仁自己去那個電腦系統公文管理系統去撈出來的一個資料就是說經濟部如果有裁法 依貿易法裁法的話他會複製我們那就會有公文過來那我們是同仁自己去抓的所以這個數字我想"},{"start":8814.824,"end":8825.571,"text":"不夠精準還是要看貿易署這邊的資料但自貿港區我們自己採訪的我們是有資料43件43件好那我不知道經濟部這邊能不能提供比較正確的數據這個次長要回答嗎"},{"start":8832.5,"end":8847.61,"text":"我想請問一下,如果按照這個數據的話,有三分之一是透過中國的商品透過台灣,然後這個悉產地到美國有超過三分之一,那我接下來想要問人說"},{"start":8850.013,"end":8866.458,"text":"現在對於美國課了這麼多的關稅然後會不會說過去所沒有的一些產品或是說一些貨品或一些東西因為課了145之後跑到台灣的會越來越多你們有沒有做這樣的一個評估"},{"start":8868.821,"end":8882.871,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們對自中國的進口的監視系統不是最近才開始我們已經進行了很久了任何我們發現有異常的話我們都會注意到有沒有特別增加的情形"},{"start":8883.724,"end":8905.622,"text":"我的意思是說 你們有沒有去評估 因為課了145的關稅之後第一個 你不要從中國去 中國去的關稅課率比較高所以會流到台灣 或是流到其他國家去然後有沒有去評估說 有沒有什麼新增的產品或是種類有可能在這一波的關稅戰會來到台灣 然後再轉出去"},{"start":8909.171,"end":8933.172,"text":"因為這個145%對美國的課徵是所有的項目我們不排除任何項目但是呢其實我們一直跟業者宣導不要做這種洗產地的行為那我們對美的出口呢我們的金額也會去跟自中國的這個進口的金額做一個勾結那其實我們業者其實都是非常守法的最近呢我們也強化了我們宣導"},{"start":8933.832,"end":8963.016,"text":"像昨天辦理這個席產地的宣導就有600多位這個業者參加我們今年還會再繼續辦理每個月要辦理兩次我知道了我是關心就是說有沒有什麼因為這個中美大戰這不是第一次嗎2018有所以2019我們有修了這個貿易法那我們把這個席產地的這個最高的這個財閥提高到300萬嘛然後現在因應這個美中的貿易戰關稅戰第二次了那我在想說因為這次的力道比第一次更大"},{"start":8963.516,"end":8978.442,"text":"那就這個裁罰的部分那我請教一下莊部長好了就裁罰的部分的話有沒有要再提高或是說過去雖然最高到300可是都沒有罰到300這個部分裁罰目前來說貿易法的規定最高是300萬對那我說過去呢過去都有罰到300萬嗎有 它是一張報單300萬過去我們也曾經超過300萬有個案有超過"},{"start":8993.838,"end":9013.248,"text":"因為現在是因應這個現在是比較關鍵的時期那我看到你們報告有寫出來我的意思是說有沒有在這個關鍵的時期那你的動作可能還要再加大不論你們去查或是去處罰或是說是激勵比如說去檢舉的"},{"start":9014.409,"end":9025.453,"text":"這方面的話有沒有跟以前比較不一樣嘛如果說都跟以前一樣的話那就沒有什麼比較特別的要來對付說這次因為關稅有可能會發生斜產地的一個問題啊謝謝委員我想您提的是非常關切的一個問題第一個就是說就我們報告裡面過去我們是針對美國對中國大陸課徵反傾銷稅的以及301條款裡面課高關稅的部分"},{"start":9040.174,"end":9067.743,"text":"作為重點那未來他是對中國大陸都課百分之一百四十五的關稅那這樣的情況下會讓中國把低價傾銷或者期產地的誘因拉高到台灣來對不對那這個部分我們當然在貨品的部分不能再僅限於原來的那些範圍而是應該把範圍擴大我也是這樣講的所以該沒有一個比較具體的東西接出來就要把所有貨物都應該要擴大然後加強的查核然後不是僅僅對原來的一個範圍"},{"start":9068.823,"end":9088.224,"text":"因為他也不可能就是說全部的東西都來嘛他一定有哪一些東西他比較有可能利用台灣再轉出去的啦你們有沒有去評估說大概是有哪些的對 次長剛剛提到就是說在進口的時候事實上都已經有系統在監控他的數量上如果有明顯的波動的話那就會特別的給予關注特別的查查"},{"start":9089.145,"end":9104.332,"text":"那我再請教一下現在這個在野黨包含陳旭珍陳雪珍他們都有提出這個離島建設條例第十八條之一第六項提出修正案就是說民定大陸地區物品商品老物等等"},{"start":9105.673,"end":9127.373,"text":"進出離島自由貿易示範區就把金門當成是一個離島的示範區但是我們也擔心如果萬一這個條例通過之後因為它的物品商品都可以來到這邊而且是大陸地區過來的會不會有可能這個條例過了之後讓金門當然它是屬於台灣變成席產地"},{"start":9130.456,"end":9140.997,"text":"的一部分然後呢因為這樣子被美國認為說是台灣在席產地然後肯與跟這個中國一樣重的關稅"},{"start":9145.229,"end":9169.298,"text":"我想這個部分對於所謂的在離島建設裡面加這個自由貿易區因為自由貿易港區的設置必須按照自由港區的一個條例來做那這個部分符不符合那個條例的一個設置規定那必須交通部可以來認定那第二個部分就是說不管是在哪一個通商口岸、席產地的一個惡主的行為都是我們要去阻絕的"},{"start":9170.278,"end":9197.741,"text":"那我是擔心啊我是擔心萬一這個條例真的通過之後金門變成一個離島的自由貿易市場中國的這些商品物品進來金門之後然後透過金門再洗出去那等於是利用金門來洗產地啊那這個條例通過之後會不會造成我剛剛所擔憂的這個後果這個部分金門並不是國際的通商口岸"},{"start":9199.67,"end":9215.189,"text":"我知道啊,那可是他就是利用金門來做這一個他如果要到美國去還是要先到台灣來嘛那是一樣啊,那進到台灣,進到台灣那一樣啊就是台灣就是被克,如果被發現說是金門,透過金門到台灣再出去"},{"start":9216.297,"end":9237.969,"text":"那一樣啊 那台灣是變成洗產地的 不是一樣的意思嗎對啊 還是會有這個風險啊對啊 還是會有這個風險啊所以我就擔憂這個地方你當然不可能直接從金門出去但是有可能透過金門再來台灣 然後再洗出去啊我所擔憂的是這部分啊所以這個離島建設條例如果修成這樣子的話我是擔心有可能會變成這樣子的後果 對不對"},{"start":9239.653,"end":9255.937,"text":"這個部分我們希望都不要有發生這樣的稀殘地的情形好那最後我再請教一下這個有關於這個啤酒要反傾銷的這件事情我上次質詢有問過就是說現在財政部這邊審查完畢現在交由這個經濟部經濟部這邊說是最快六月會完成這個調查"},{"start":9263.75,"end":9288.419,"text":"這個按照這個反傾銷業者他們的一個說法他們認為說那的確啊因為從中國進口的這些啤酒他們價格比較低因為他們有很多的一些優惠跟促銷的一些空間所以光是一瓶330ml的這個啤酒在台灣他們所賣的價錢就比我們一般市售要便宜便宜到五塊錢就變成一種對台灣的啤酒業的一個反傾銷那我請問一下這個那次長好了"},{"start":9293.518,"end":9307.736,"text":"這個關於這個啤酒案的這個反起效調查我上次問是六月那有沒有可能因為現在關稅站那在這一個審查的速度上面稍微可以再加快一點是我們是負責有關於產業損害調查部分我們會加快腳步"},{"start":9308.704,"end":9322.94,"text":"那上次是不是六月啦?五月份一定會完成五月份會完成就對了,那就稍微再快一點因為在這個時機點上面,我是認為說關於任何中國的這個不論是席產地或是說這個傾銷這個貨品來到台灣,我們都要提高警覺"},{"start":9328.846,"end":9344.153,"text":"好 謝謝坤城委員在這裡跟大家致歉一下是不是我們到顏寬恆委員諮詢完畢以後我們再休息十分鐘接著請顏寬恆委員諮詢好 謝謝 特別感謝主席各位列席官員大家早主席有請財政部莊部長是 莊部長"},{"start":9360.154,"end":9382.194,"text":"委員好部長早部長川普發布了對等關稅對台灣祭出32%的措施衝擊全球經濟在10日的凌晨又改口將暫緩實施90天期間是實施10%的關稅弄得大家人心惶惶也衝擊了百工百業"},{"start":9383.922,"end":9410.504,"text":"我們的報稅計要到了那左院長在上星期行政院會上表示會跟你們財政部這邊討論延長5月開始的報稅期那會比照COVID-19疫情期間的模式那請問部長研究的如何這個報稅期限能不能延長到6月底跟委員報告我們所得稅決案申報會延長一個月到6月30那我們近日會辦理公告"},{"start":9411.854,"end":9433.812,"text":"進入會公告所以我想如果能夠延長報稅的期限在目前這種不確定性的時期會對企業跟民眾有實質的幫助減輕他們的負擔希望財政部能夠迅速而且具體的延長報稅的安排有更多的時間讓民眾可以來應對目前的困境"},{"start":9439.016,"end":9461.717,"text":"那明天行政院會議會討論新來幣880億的支持產業方案特別條例那也會送到立法院來審議法案通過之後特別預算會再送來立法院那請教部長你簡單的跟我們說明財政部知道的部分包含條例的裁員還有金額目前由行政院喊出880億那會不會設上限"},{"start":9465.274,"end":9470.578,"text":"委員報告我關特別條例的部分現在目前都在主條的都在嚴尼當中那同時在這個時間也去聽取產業的意見那對於有關"},{"start":9476.434,"end":9503,"text":"需要不足的部分看要不要再補強這個部分都還會再進入討論那至於880億的部分的金額是不是在條例裡面做特別的規定可能會在他們院裡面會再做討論那重點是在於就是說我們對於裁員的部分剛剛委員提到特別條例通過以後要編列特別預算它的裁員第一個會來自於稅計剩餘或者用舉債的方式來做支應"},{"start":9503.902,"end":9531.576,"text":"好 我認為說不分朝野都希望這一次的這個關稅風波能夠讓國內的業者能夠損失降低 降到最低所以支持產業方案是非常重要那要請部長多加留意 因為不要過於自信我要再提一次就是在川普還沒宣布關稅32%以前我們就宣布了把我們手中的王牌台積電赴美投資一千億"},{"start":9533.257,"end":9559.788,"text":"自信的認為說這樣子就可以避免高關稅但是發現了說這個太早亮牌太早亮牌就白白浪費了我們的談判籌碼外交貿易談判像日本韓國都沒有在一開始就宣布加碼投資都等到談判進行中才開始交涉那財政部在未來的這80天接近80天的這個因為大概4月9號宣布了所以在未來這80天要更加謹慎"},{"start":9561.289,"end":9587.245,"text":"那剛剛提到說不管是32%還是10%最後調升多少這些物價反應都是在我們所有包括你我這些消費者身上那請教部長中研院下修台灣經濟成長預測3.1%目標是難以達成你的看法如何跟中研院一樣嗎我想中研院他們是一個非常專責的機構也是國家一個智庫這個部分我想他們的"},{"start":9588.258,"end":9593.621,"text":"評估有他們的一個道理那整個局勢事實上都一直在變一下32%一下回到10%那未來會是多少我想我們的經貿團隊去談判團隊一定會為國家爭取最大的利益以及維護產業的國際競爭力會以這樣的一個目標來做進行那這個訊息事實上是時常都在變化的"},{"start":9610.61,"end":9625.705,"text":"那就我們政府機關來說我們就做好準備同時對於委員所提到對於需要輔助的產業我們都應該要有這個支持方案來給予他們的一個支持部長我在這邊要跟部長討論一個方案就是不管結果如何"},{"start":9626.986,"end":9651.608,"text":"所有的民眾生活一定是受到嚴重的影響那所以說好比在異常期間的一個紓困貸款一樣我們有看到財政部目前有研擬對於中小企業的這個紓困貸款但是我是希望說財政部能夠督導公股銀行研擬給勞工一般民眾的紓困貸款因為我們未來不管是結果如何都一定是"},{"start":9653.787,"end":9666.2,"text":"32%也好或者是比現在10%更高對於台灣所有產業的衝擊都非常的大那最簡單的如果說這些產業我們剛剛提到的中小企業的紓困貸款那"},{"start":9669.887,"end":9689.592,"text":"國內的產業受到衝擊之後 他們最簡單最常見的方式就是裁員 公司瘦身那所以對於這樣子有可能被裁員的這些基層民眾那一被裁員 他可能是一個家庭的重心這個家庭就馬上失去了這樣子的一個經濟來源"},{"start":9691.593,"end":9707.848,"text":"那還有房貸要繳家人要養所以我是希望說部長能夠跟金管會勞動部一起研議提出針對一般民眾的紓困貸款針對年收入較低的這些族群給他們一個方案部長願不願意這樣做"},{"start":9710.43,"end":9736.286,"text":"謝謝委員我想在勞動部在這一次的一個碰到這樣的一個關稅的衝擊他也有提出相關的一個支持方案在裡面對於勞工朋友受到衝擊都有相關的一些協助的一些措施那自己在金融的部分就所知金管會會跟銀行工會這邊會來做討論做一些寬緩的設施如果這個措施出來以後我們的公股行股當然應該依照金管會所訂的一個以及銀行工會所訂的規範來做執行是"},{"start":9739.893,"end":9748.077,"text":"請部長跟勞動部還有金管會互相的來做一個溝通跟聯繫是的 謝謝委員謝謝部長你請回請經濟部姜政次好 次長"},{"start":9758.891,"end":9778.783,"text":"委員好次長好次長川普在上個禮拜宣布對等關稅暫緩實施90天但是對中國關稅並沒有暫緩所以中國關稅高達125%世界各國都很擔心後續引起的這些中國產品的傾銷透過第三地、席產地這些部份我想大家都討論很多"},{"start":9779.483,"end":9788.832,"text":"那看來財政部跟經濟部我們看了你們的報告所以財政部跟經濟部所採取的應對措施大致都相同就是嚴格審查那如果發現違規就進行懲處"},{"start":9791.291,"end":9809.987,"text":"那我想其他國家也一樣都很擔心中國產品傾銷的問題不只是台灣啦印尼跟我們一樣都被川普課徵32%的對等關稅那他們因此印尼國內各個產業也都跳出來呼籲說印尼政府要迅速採取行動"},{"start":9810.928,"end":9825.416,"text":"那我相信不只是印尼包括越南南韓等其他國家都會面臨到中國產品傾銷的威脅我想請教次長說是否考慮跟其他國家合作如何維護公平貿易營造公平貿易的環境這部分"},{"start":9826.167,"end":9855.744,"text":"是分兩點跟委員說明第一點我們現在的進口監測不是只有針對中國的進口產品而是全世界因為我們害怕的擔心的是說未來會被這個科與高關稅國家的產品也會進入到台灣的市場第二點因為我們跟這些國家通通都有平常就往來有經貿的這個互動所以我們也是有透過我們相關駐外單位的同仁"},{"start":9856.365,"end":9862.749,"text":"去跟當地的政府去了解他們的相關做法為何作為我們的相關參考我認為說除了鋼鐵半導體之外我們更應該注意我們的紡織業因為就我們看到這880億裡面700億是給"},{"start":9872.496,"end":9887.09,"text":"這個工業的部分那180億是農業的部分那我沒有看到針對紡織的部分有做任何的一個規劃那中國大陸的這些紡織品衣服 襪子這些東西原本要銷售到美國的"},{"start":9887.731,"end":9913.079,"text":"那有可能因為這樣子的關係所以就會跑到中國跑到台灣或者跑到東南亞任何一個台灣是可能是台灣日本韓國這個都有可能那所以說原來像同樣一件衣服在淘寶買比在蝦皮或任何的廠商的這個資深網站更加的便宜甚至於半價甚至於半價所以不只是衣服包含生活小物這些東西都有很大的價差"},{"start":9914.159,"end":9933.232,"text":"那這樣子的話我們台灣自身的這些紡織業要如何生存其實這些問題已經存在非常久了市長也知道說這一次我們這些紡織業者非常的困難那如何能夠提出具體的協助部長可以簡單說明一下市長"},{"start":9934.292,"end":9956.855,"text":"是分三點來說明第一點呢政府所推出的這個881並沒有排除紡織業所以紡織產業如果有需要的話也可以來申請試用第二點呢我們也主動的去跟我們的紡織業者有做交流我們有部分的業者呢其實他是生產據點是在其他的國家所以他們也會做"},{"start":9957.885,"end":9986.113,"text":"產能的調度第三點呢也是一樣對於中國會進來的紡織品我們從邊境就會開始做相關的管制也是會做相關進口量以及金額的這個監測如果有異常的話我們會去跟這個會不會輸美來做相關的勾結有異常的廠商名單會交給這個財政部來做這個高風險的這個名單的特別的這個監督以及查核市長請回謝謝"},{"start":9989.71,"end":9993.886,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝快橫委員那我們先休息十分鐘"},{"start":10636.613,"end":10639.636,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接著請黃森山委員質詢謝主席 我請莊部長 然後經濟部江次長 還有關務署署長好 請三位長官"},{"start":10663.618,"end":10678.433,"text":"川普提出的對等關稅已經造成了全球的非常重大的影響當然他的目的是為了重塑全球產業鏈然後美國優先但是目的其實看起來只有一個就是防堵中國"},{"start":10679.674,"end":10704.66,"text":"到现在为止大概防堵中国是他最终的目的那目前为止看到越南也开始担心洗产地的问题那表示说洗产地的部分在今天的专案报告里面我们也希望看到比较具体尤其是在4月4号的时候行政院经贸办当时杨哲宁的简报说低价产品洗产地违规转运是美国计算对等关税的原因是这样吗"},{"start":10707.369,"end":10712.714,"text":"目前還不知道次長你是我們負責談判的副代表所以您在這個過程裡面美國有把低價產品及產地作為對台灣對等關稅32%的主要原因嗎"},{"start":10734.208,"end":10760.221,"text":"就如同剛才部長所講的未來要跟美國協商的時候才知道但是目前白宮官方目前沒有把洗產地成為台灣32%的主要原因吧目前還沒有吧沒看到我們找不到看他有公布那個公式就是分子分母除下來以後再乘以50%所以我們是32%對但是洗產地並不是我們的主要原因嗎"},{"start":10761.601,"end":10777.031,"text":"不管是不是主要原因,所以習產地這個事情我們一定要阻絕的習產地就是他要關稅不讓任何可能透過轉運的方式然後規避掉美國的高額關稅剛講嘛,因為他要防堵中國嘛"},{"start":10779.482,"end":10798.455,"text":"好 所以經濟部財政部跟工會我們對原產地有一定的嚴謹的流程那主要是要加工在地加工還要有實質轉型然後目前為止要超過35%才可以算是所謂的產地可是大部分很多35%的規範目前為止對美國來說它有沒有這麼明確的規範經濟部"},{"start":10807.04,"end":10814.844,"text":"分兩點跟委員說明很清楚哪一些東西是叫做實質轉型哪一些東西才是真正所謂的原產地"},{"start":10819.144,"end":10846.093,"text":"如果按照美國的規定美國是由海關來認定它的原產地現在的問題就是它就變成是有一些是有規範有一些是個案認定甚至有一些可能是特殊商品比如說自行車要產車價的那個地方才叫做原產地太陽能發電機組的那個太陽能電池的原產地才叫做原產地所以這些東西都還不清楚是嗎"},{"start":10847.059,"end":10875.619,"text":"根據美國的最終實質轉型規定他會看幾點第一個就是名稱特性還有使用的方法是否有改變此外呢他也會去看單一這個產品他加工的複雜程度所以兩位首長現在台灣的廠商最困擾的其實就是這些也就是說從美國來說他107年駐美代表處我們經濟組的報告是說美國政府針對FTA的協定國家會"},{"start":10877.26,"end":10904.331,"text":"約定原產地的證明格式但是原產地證明目前是僅供參考看海關的認定那最重要的是有些特殊商品還有特殊的規定也就是說這些東西目前為止並沒有百分之百明文或很明確的內容這就是台灣跟美國要談判的相關的細節對吧接下來的原產地可能也是要成為你們談判的內容吧"},{"start":10905.474,"end":10923.159,"text":"我們未來要談什麼話要看談判的相關的所以今天到底是不是原產地的部分我看到財政部的報告是事前預防事中嚴查事後嚴懲對吧在財政部報告裡面確實是這樣事前怎麼樣預防"},{"start":10927.079,"end":10942.184,"text":"第一个他就是说他必须拿到原产地证明输出许可我们才可以所以我们台湾有能力去预防别人到台湾来洗产地的方式目前有什么样的比较具体的做法吗"},{"start":10943.531,"end":10967.313,"text":"具體的做法就如同我們報告 管務署應該都有嘛 對不對那未來我們還會持續的精進那當然剛剛委員所提到就是說我們這邊有息產地的一個相關規範原產地證明的一個文件我們109年就針對貿易法修正了嘛就是怕人家來息產地然後我們看到的我現在調出來的資料"},{"start":10969.134,"end":10996.121,"text":"財政部只管經貿相關的這個經貿區我們目前為止貿易法實施以後我查到了五年來罰了四十件只罰了一百四十萬也就是說針對息產地的部分目前為止財政部自由貿易港區管理的部分只有四十件一百四十萬經濟部你們有針對貿易法的相關裁罰有做出開罰或者是相關的資料嗎"},{"start":10997.133,"end":11008.342,"text":"自貿港區是由財政部依據我們經濟部是在自貿港區以外的你們這幾年有查過多少嗎總共查了744件如果說有財閥的話是200多件財閥的金額是2800多萬所以稀產地還是一個需要"},{"start":11021.909,"end":11045.529,"text":"如果我們要跟美國好好談判 這個部分可能執行方面也是要做嚴查好 適中嚴查 現在有一個可能性最近看到的是美國他把所謂的小額的包裹的800塊美金的取消那顯然應該會有很多原來要寄到美國的包裹會透過其他的方式來去規避所謂的相關的高額關稅"},{"start":11046.69,"end":11075.169,"text":"那台湾因为我们比较优惠我们五万块以下是检疫申报然后两千块以下是免税那这个有没有可能成为将来现在大家担心的是五月份开始这个一取消之后中国大陆的相关的化整为零的这些所谓领土建会不会透过小额包裹的方式转运到台湾在借由台湾跟美国还是低关税的状况下又是另外一种习产地"},{"start":11076.391,"end":11093.331,"text":"關稅署 關務署這種狀況會在你們掌控之中嗎是 報告委員當然我們這個風險都有在控管當中好 我想問一下你怎麼控管他寄到台灣來再轉到美國去省下來那些高額關稅那我們怎麼控管"},{"start":11094.432,"end":11106.741,"text":"跟委員報告,如同委員所知道的,我們現在是有次數平反以及我們是低價免稅才兩千塊而已然後我們有實名認證因為他那邊要繳稅,所以他轉來轉去轉回來,那你怎麼管我們有實名認證接下來我們要做的就是對於中國大陸進來的這些貨物"},{"start":11119.29,"end":11141.508,"text":"我們會監控他的這個流量實質監控然後看看哪些報關行哪些公司專門在進大陸的這種小額包裹然後怎麼樣看到他將來出口這些狀況的對這些流量我們都會監控前面要做預防中間要做查緝最後出口的時候要搞清楚不要到時候被人家處罰了我們都還不知道"},{"start":11142.288,"end":11159.185,"text":"好不好 關務署這件事情我覺得給我一個完整的流程跟我們接下來會怎麼做的一些有沒有新的方法如果這個狀況發生五月份以後的小兒包括大量入侵的情況下你們會採取什麼樣的做法是 也跟委員報告我們其實快遞貨物"},{"start":11160.319,"end":11187.933,"text":"它基本上是有總貨物流量的一個控制我們很關心的是我們不要變成別人息產地的工具啦而且最重要的是台灣MIT已經成為一個優質產品我們希望它是一個優質產品的代名詞而不是被息產地這樣子污名化的地方另外就是財政部世界官務組織其實亞太經合會都有推動所謂的AEO優質企業認證對吧"},{"start":11191.035,"end":11194.417,"text":"那台灣只有400多家的原因是什麼?這些是因為廠商不願意去認證"},{"start":11201.226,"end":11209.071,"text":"也就是說將來如果全世界已經回到高額關稅的狀況了所以AU的優質企業認證的話可以減少所謂的通關審查也可以讓優質的廠商得到比較優惠的方式我想關務署跟財政部這個還有經濟部是不是在台灣的廠商裡面怎麼樣讓協助他們能夠面對接下去這麼多的考驗"},{"start":11224.301,"end":11248.496,"text":"如果加入這些目前看起來我們承認的國家只有10個但是韓國有25個互惠的國家日本有14個所以在AO認證的相關的國家同意的情況下我希望台灣也能夠找到更多的貿易夥伴來協助廠商能夠協助他們有關通關審查的相關的作業"},{"start":11249.696,"end":11276.633,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導這也是我們海關一直努力的目標對 所以部長跟次長我希望你們在這上面協助關務署協助台灣的廠商不是只有給他880億給他實質能夠做得到讓他面對將來的挑戰不會受到這些國家突然間變動的影響我覺得現在的問題就是以前簽的貿易協定一個總統說話就不算數了很可怕 所以要幹嘛要在各個國家裡面都有相關的朋友"},{"start":11277.583,"end":11285.998,"text":"包括像這種國際關務世界關務組織已經有的相關的機制我們就要把它趕快好好的運用接下來最後一個小問題在這次的"},{"start":11290.138,"end":11312.699,"text":"習產地的過程裡面我們希望財政部剛剛講的明確化的部分還有經濟部剛剛所說的可能會成為習產地的第一優先的所謂被列為的名單你們現在有任何優先的相關的產品或者是名單嗎或者被列為所謂的高危險名單嗎"},{"start":11315.014,"end":11327.327,"text":"一直在做的就是301被課高關稅的以及反傾銷稅之前叫做高風險商品這些都是高風險的貨物那現在應該有新的變局了啦是沒錯所以新的變局你要有新的相關的"},{"start":11330.041,"end":11345.871,"text":"應變跟討論跟美國人他們到底現在關心的是什麼我們是不是要先因應像我看到院長下去很多的其他的廠商真的都搞不清楚現在問題是沒人搞得清楚所以希望的是經濟部跟關務署跟"},{"start":11347.052,"end":11368.937,"text":"財政部讓,不要說民眾,廠商至少搞得清楚我覺得現在很多連自己的廠商都搞不太清楚工會更不要講,打電話去工會,很多工會都說我們也不知道,要去問財政部那為了財政部,財政部說也還不知道,要去看經濟部,看怎麼樣跟美國人談我覺得這些動作可能要快一點,好嗎?"},{"start":11369.437,"end":11394.617,"text":"好的好 我覺得至少我們在短期內希望你們可以一個完整的明確化的原則給我們所有的工會跟廠商 好嗎財政部我想跟委員報告當然我們希望所有都非常明確但是美國的關稅政策您也知道就是常常在變一路數變 我知道但是我們就至少把高風險的先列出來然後給他們一些相關的因應措施"},{"start":11394.997,"end":11413.168,"text":"是好的我們把相關跟經濟部一起合作什麼叫高風險的那也只要因為經濟部也已經跟廠商在舉辦了你們平常就有在整理啦只是這次要把所有的東西再重新的recheck一次好嗎好謝謝謝謝珊珊委員接著請林思敏委員質詢好謝謝主席請部長請部長"},{"start":11429.502,"end":11447.789,"text":"委員好 部長好 您在上週4月10號表示說對於擴大國安基金的擴編 財政部已經做過評估 適當時機也會處理所以請問部長 您是否認同國安基金要朝擴編的方向來進行"},{"start":11449.605,"end":11464.402,"text":"委員報告跟委員報告我們其實評估我們大概有相關幾個重點第一個就是說目前來說台股的市值是72兆跟在89年成立之後已經達到有9倍之多了第二個就是說外資的"},{"start":11466.323,"end":11489.477,"text":"比例來說佔了四成所以整個來說國安基金是不是要做把它的規模擴大這個部分一直在我們的評估當中那另外就是說雖然目前是五千億那兩千億是以我們的股權去做持押以後借款那三千億是有關基金的部分那我們其實操盤手每次都大概都在這個"},{"start":11490.69,"end":11513.903,"text":"兩千億的這個範圍內 但世大基金本身他們也有一些用途很難懂所以這個部分我們都是在我們評估的項目之中所以你聽你這樣講你的意思就是說是朝擴編的方向來進行嘛因為市值已經比過去這個股市的市值大那麼多了高達七十幾兆了嘛所以這國安基金的規模有擴編的必要嗎"},{"start":11515.778,"end":11532.955,"text":"這個部分一直都是在我們幾個數字裡面在評估的項目中來 部長我們看一下這個我們的PPT裡面所顯示的其實我們的國安基金從2000年開始2000年的10月我們最大的一個投入的金額是1227億到了2008年金融海嘯我們投資是600億"},{"start":11539.221,"end":11557.243,"text":"到了前年,2022年的烏俄戰爭,投入的金額是545億,那金額大概就是說也沒有超過2000億,最多就是1227億,但是陳榮林剛才講的,其實我們不是以說我們投入的金額來做評估,"},{"start":11558.104,"end":11576.272,"text":"評估是整個因為現在市值已經股市的市值已經那麼大了比過去大很多所以到底國安基金面對這一次的川普的政策的不確定性對於關稅對等關稅做出這麼一下子這個招令細改"},{"start":11576.972,"end":11601.379,"text":"這樣子造成全國世界各地的整個金融其實就講金融海嘯也不為過啦所以在這種情況之下當然會影響我們的股市還有很多我們的進出口產業所以我們的尤其股市我們要如何的讓我們的股市能夠穩定這一點可能國安基金投入的一個護盤的一個金額未來會有充滿很大的一個變數"},{"start":11603.26,"end":11610.686,"text":"所以我個人是認為說整個如果國安基金的一個擴大可能有它的必要性部長你贊同嗎謝謝委員的這樣的一個方向我想是因為"},{"start":11616.329,"end":11628.416,"text":"國安基金的目的就是在穩定投資人的一個信心維護這個金融資本市場的一個穩定所以部長你剛才也認為說適當時機因為你過去講適當時機你就要去這個來擴大那你所謂的適當時機是什麼時候我們都還需要再做評估謝謝委員"},{"start":11637.589,"end":11661.841,"text":"還要再做評估所以我現在接下來就想問你啊因為你講說適當時機你就會去做擴編然後你要去做積極的一個評估那評估到今天為止今天為止你可不可以有一個具體的答案到底你適當時機沒有現在川普這樣的政策之下你就要趕快做評估啦你不能還拖啊你現在跟我講說你還在評估評估到什麼時候謝謝委員我想我們這個部分會再積極的處理是"},{"start":11667.4,"end":11693.589,"text":"部長我要告訴你川普給我們的時間只有90天在這90天之內充滿變數那您上週也回答說適當時機你們會提出整個這個國安基金擴編這樣子的一個方向政策方向的一個評估所以你現在要很具體告訴我啊在這90天之內有沒有可能國安基金你會做擴編"},{"start":11695.933,"end":11712.606,"text":"現在破冰要經過管理條例的修正就是我們國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例要做修正所以我的意思你這個條例什麼時候可以提出來還是跟委員報告這個部分我們還是會審視的評估部長不能太久啊"},{"start":11720.686,"end":11727.861,"text":"你這個還是要你要加緊積極加緊腳步啊好謝謝要更積極一點好不好OK好"},{"start":11730.319,"end":11751.229,"text":"那另外這個對於這個今天農業部的今天的專報提到說需要有效的防堵中國大陸的大蒜還有香菇經由周邊國家進口到台灣並要求財政部關務署依據海關認定進口貨物原產地的作業要點規定需逐批的來查驗"},{"start":11752.779,"end":11764.796,"text":"那在含送到農業部雜糧蔬菜特措協助鑑定小組來協助鑑定原產地我想這個農業部你不用上來因為我要問關務署那個關務署啊"},{"start":11768.442,"end":11785.338,"text":"我在3月20號的時候就已經針對我這個有工農跟我澄清說從金門海關可以放行攜帶3公斤的一個超過我們規定的1公斤規定這樣的一個情況會影響我們這個工農的權益"},{"start":11792.344,"end":11821.548,"text":"那當時我要求關務署你應該就是要在每個月把你們查緝的結果做成報告來提供給我們財委會還有本席來做一個這個了解那今天農業部我們看看在報告裡面就剛有提到這個問題了對於香菇的問題怕有息產力的問題所以今天3月20到今天4月20忙到了本席想請教我們關務署你的報告什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":11823.127,"end":11845.02,"text":"我們這個絕對會遵照委員的指示啦會盡快提那個報告署長剩沒幾天欸到現在還沒有做出來啊我們再盤點一下好不好對4月20你就要做出來所以這個議題就代表說我過去我所關心的確實我們怕有這個有稀產地的一個問題嘛"},{"start":11846.381,"end":11869.995,"text":"農業部也有提出相關的一個同樣的一個意見跟看法所以關務署你要加強查緝啦這應該的謝謝好那個再請教部長部長這個賴總統他講說這個我們未來國家的投資將積極的拖中入北往拖中入北的方向來前進部長你知道什麼叫拖中入北嗎"},{"start":11872.447,"end":11898.457,"text":"這個部分可能就是對中國大陸這個部分逐漸的不再做入北是包含哪些經濟體所謂的入北是包含哪些區域的經濟體區域的部分那當然就是北半球的部分嘛對好 那好 就北半球的部分嘛部長 目前我們的泛工股銀行在中國大陸的投資的總加數是多少"},{"start":11899.991,"end":11914.461,"text":"加速的部分就是我們公股行庫在中國大陸它有涉相關的分行或者是紙行全部都有全部都有八大公股銀行都有那加速的部分我們是不是會後再提供給委員"},{"start":11916.042,"end":11930.17,"text":"所以部長你覺得說如果托中入北這樣的政策是否就是表示說將來這些飯工股的銀行也必須完全配合我們政府的政策托中的一個政策撤出在中國大陸的投資"},{"start":11931.965,"end":11942.338,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們的供股行庫這幾年來對於在中國大陸的曝險情形都一直逐漸的下降以111年來說是2,601億那到114年的2月已經只有1,400"},{"start":11949.696,"end":11972.412,"text":"62億大概%是7%它已經逐漸降低但是我們的供果航庫基本上是服務我們的台商它當然會隨著有關廠業的有關供應鏈的一些調整來去調整它的佈局所以這樣一個拖中入北的政策是否會影響說我們台商在這個大陸的一個權益"},{"start":11974.521,"end":11999.551,"text":"大陸台商還有我們飯工股銀行在經營上會不會有什麼風險大陸地區的台商在經營上尤其遇到目前來說美國對中國大陸的部分是課高關稅我想在台商的部分他們可能會有一些因應的部分經濟部也在協助如果台商這個部分的一個需求或者回台投資或者轉移生產集體等等都會做一些調整對飯工股銀行的風險影響呢"},{"start":12003.432,"end":12024.917,"text":"譬如說在那邊台商全部如果說你講的都要去脫中要入北那這放公股它的獲利會不會就會受影響公股行庫其實跟剛剛委員報告它在中國道路的破險已經逐漸下降目前大概只有百分之七非常的低跟最早的時候曾經到高達百分之十是已經逐漸降低嘛"},{"start":12025.373,"end":12041.372,"text":"那他主要是服務還是我們的台商為主所以你認為偷中入本的政策是可行的嗎這個部分是一個國家的一個大方向是 好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝思敏 接著請陳一貞委員質詢"},{"start":12052.077,"end":12072.524,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請財政部還有關務署的署長好 財政部還有關務署的署長經濟部是下面 要準備好 那本席在這邊宣布我們12點開放就是在會場用餐好 那個陳一貞委員好 你開始了好 委員好"},{"start":12073.55,"end":12090.584,"text":"最近一個很流行還是一直抹黑我們金門的議題就是說我們這個提案在離島建制條裡面修說要把金門做自由貿易港區那民進黨尤其是民進黨委員會起心上下不但抹黑金門還抹黑自由貿易港區這個詞啦"},{"start":12092.165,"end":12095.811,"text":"說我們金門要設這個自由貿易港區就是要為中國洗產地要開後門我們都是到時候這個如果被懲罰都是因為我們金門要做這些事情我們變成一個幫兇這個帽子扣得非常的大"},{"start":12107.428,"end":12114.77,"text":"我們先來討論一下大家所說的什麼叫息產地我想觀光署這個署長是專業的財政部也是專業我們來看一下我們講的這個對不對什麼叫息產地自由貿易港區是不是會變成息產地的特區我們金門如果變成自由貿易港區是不是會變成息產地的特區我想這個東西帽子不能扣這麼大在李導身上所以我們也要先弄清楚什麼叫息產地"},{"start":12132.015,"end":12154.804,"text":"稀產地根據剛剛各個部會的報告也有說是將已接近成品的貨品進口到台灣簡易加工再把產品比如說本來是Made in China到台灣以後簡易加工改成Made in Taiwan然後如果對美國來講再出口到美國這個就把原來中國字變成台灣字這個叫稀產地第二個可能把"},{"start":12156.184,"end":12179.146,"text":"貨品進到自由貿易港區物流中心保稅區啊然後就違規他沒有做任何的加工他違規改標比如說原來上面貼的是中國製造現在把它改標成台灣製造這叫違規的改標嘛這個定義沒有錯嘛如果是簡易加工但是沒有那麼大的加工他把它改成改成地然後第二個就是說直接就違規啦他就可以改標啦那個署長這樣對不對這個定義"},{"start":12182.012,"end":12198.894,"text":"是報告委員基本上就是一個原型態的把它改標出去的一個是透過就沒有改變那麼大只有簡易或者是直接改標這個違規的改標這個都叫息產地行為對吧那息產地要有什麼樣的條件呢一個地方如果要息產地呢要"},{"start":12199.395,"end":12225.653,"text":"第一個 從大陸如果說我們要把中國字大陸字變成台灣字第一個要先進東西嘛進大陸的貨品嘛齁所以一個地方要先進大陸貨品第二個要有加工廠或是工廠改加工或是改標籤嘛要有人去做這個動作嘛齁一個動作嘛齁好或是簡易加工啦齁第三個要輸往美國嘛這美國關切是不能別的地方變成他的嘛變成變成台灣的嘛輸過去所以要有這三個構成要件嘛沒錯吧署長"},{"start":12228.493,"end":12250.364,"text":"沒錯吧 要進貨物進來要改標或者是簡易加工或者是然後最後還要把它運到美國這是美國關心的 這叫去美國的息產地嘛 正確吧基本上就是這些貨物是標示不實貨或者是衛福規定去標示就過程是這個樣子嘛 息產地的意義是這樣子啦好 那我們來看一下所謂自由貿易港區台灣現在有幾個自由貿易港區 署長六港一空"},{"start":12255.266,"end":12280.063,"text":"蘇澳港 基隆港 台北港 桃園空港 台中港 安平港 高雄港 還有屏東農業生技園區 這些都是自由貿易港區123456789 那個生技園區 6港1空 現在至少7個啦 屏東那是生技園區那自由貿易港區 我要講一下為什麼我們金門要修這個離島經濟條例為什麼金門也是一個港府 它不能變成自由貿易港區 關公署長你知道原因嗎"},{"start":12281.61,"end":12285.092,"text":"報告委員金門因為它不是國際商港因為它不是國際商港因為自由港區要定義在國際航空站會會國際商港金門港雖然跟廈門往來但是被定義不是國際商港沒錯吧在我們國內的法律定義如果今天是國際商港"},{"start":12297.057,"end":12314.852,"text":"那我們就可以直接申請啦也不用再什麼改什麼離島經濟條約什麼事情都不用做我們就直接申請就好全部按照這個法律嘛對不對因為它不是國際商港嘛雖然賴總統認為廈門跟金門喔中華人民共和國跟中華民國一邊一國但是兩邊往來不是國際往來啊是叫小山通往來啊所以金門的位置很很"},{"start":12316.713,"end":12346.093,"text":"很委屈啊你一邊說我們兩邊是兩國一邊一國然後這個往來又不叫國際港又叫小山東往來所以我們想要身為用國際港的生命力申請為自由貿易港區又不被准取因為我們叫小山東港不叫國際港所以我們才說那只能修離島建制條約要符合跟國際自由貿易港一樣的待遇嘛持續改在離島建制條約裡面修法如果今天就被認為是國際港我們不用修法對不對沒錯吧就可以直接申請嘛如果金門市地域是國際港是不是可以直接申請"},{"start":12350.134,"end":12373.243,"text":"是國際港就可以直接申請吧任何國際港都可以申請吧如果被認定是國際港啦這不是你認定的交通部在認定如果是認定的國際港就不用申請不用再修法對不對就是可以直接依照那個自貿港區設置管理條例去申請對就是說如果金門被認為是國際港就不用再修什麼立法建設條例所以是因為我們現在法律架構我們不被認為是國際港但是"},{"start":12376.017,"end":12390.555,"text":"總統呢 又說我們又是這個廈門跟金門又是兩邊又是一邊一國的不同的地區不同的國家互不隸屬我們又切身為名我們又變成是小山東港口所以我們才要去修這個吧好 我們來看看現在實際上國內的自由貿易港區裡頭有多少"},{"start":12392.877,"end":12408.091,"text":"施產地就這種違規的這個行為我有跟關火署要資料你知道財政部部長你知道現在自由剛我們提的那些現在還沒成立喔剛剛已經提了這些所謂的自由貿易港區因為違規轉運而被裁罰最多的自由貿易港區在哪裡嗎現行最多的在哪裡嗎部長在高雄對不對沒錯嘛我還給你看一下數據"},{"start":12414.574,"end":12433.915,"text":"金門什麼都還沒有做 給我們扣帽子現在高雄關 高雄關包括高雄跟台南高雄跟台南才是最大的息產地破口 以目前來講高雄關 高雄港跟安平港因為違規轉運而被裁罰的案件呢這麼多年來最多案件的是112年的48件"},{"start":12436.854,"end":12458.605,"text":"48件這是關公署給我們資料去年113年是37件那其他的關呢 台中關是零件這自由貿易港區不是指所有的管 只管自由貿易港區台中關是零件 基隆關是五年六件高雄關48件 台北關就是包括航空城五年一件就相當的少"},{"start":12459.585,"end":12472.978,"text":"那有人說是不是因為高雄港的貨運量比較大所以他比較多案件有這個違規情形不對以去年為例高雄自由貿易港區自貿港的貨運量是101萬公噸台中的是503萬噸台中的運量是高雄的5倍"},{"start":12477.441,"end":12496.434,"text":"但是台中的案件是零高雄的案件是48件是37件高雄關包括台南港跟安平港跟這個高雄港那其實整個來講這是你們給我知道整個來講我說的只是自由貿易港區所以自由貿易港區事實上違規的轉運的案件相對來講數字來講也是不多啦數字很少"},{"start":12496.914,"end":12515.647,"text":"所以自由貿易群根本不應該被扣上一個會變成所謂席產地的缺口的這種罪名今天先不要說金門就算高雄 台南啊 哪裡啊整個違規轉移情形很少其他自由貿易港區以外我們不知道但至少在這裡頭這幾年就四十幾件台中甚至是零件"},{"start":12516.528,"end":12543.954,"text":"所以今天很多人就把自由貿易港區呢扣上了一個帽子說做自由貿易港區就會變成違規洗產地的這種地方呢這個是對這些地區的努力的商家也是很不公平的對高雄的商家對台南商家也是不公平那不管怎麼講現在最多的案件也還是發生在高雄港所以如果照民進黨說現在高雄跟台南才是最大的洗產區破口啊如果照他們現在原則不就違規做的就是高雄跟台南嗎"},{"start":12546.728,"end":12570.377,"text":"這是數據是關公署我們問的你們是關公署提供給我們的這個是只問自由貿易港區不問其他全部的只問自由貿易港區的因為我們今天只提自由貿易港區剛剛委員講那個37件應該那個是華環的那個金額啦37萬不是不是來113年它是高雄關它是9件112年對9件14件啦好不管幾件很少對不對"},{"start":12571.843,"end":12590.015,"text":"就很少嘛 對不對自由貿易港區整個違規的形式是不是相當少如果這樣來看一年九件相對的數量是不是很少 台中關甚至零件我的意思就是說自由貿易港區它不應該被擴散一個會洗產地的這種標籤啦不然就是你們關務署查核不立喔"},{"start":12592.358,"end":12611.651,"text":"是你們查而不立還是他的違規案件就是這麼少當然我們同仁一定是全力以赴查查這個所以他的案件九件 十四件也好反正高雄台中關甚至零件所以整個的情形很好但最多的還是高雄跟台南沒錯如果以數據來看台中關的部分我跟委員再補充一下台中關他主要就是那個遊船"},{"start":12612.872,"end":12632.109,"text":"所以它的那個貿易額會比較多一點主要是郵品的金額比較高那不管嘛 郵船也有可能會被弄成不知道什麼都會被洗產地嘛反正任何東西只要會被洗產地的也有可能嘛有關稅的問題嘛那我的意思就是說自由貿易港就它本身的裁判案件這麼少要嘛就是官務處執行不力啊要嘛就事實上真的做得"},{"start":12632.369,"end":12649.816,"text":"沒有這種違規的情形嘛應該是這樣子我覺得這種一個自由貿易港這樣的經濟行為不應該被扣上這樣的帽子啊我的意思是說大家其實要理性來看這件事情那請問啊對未來這個席產地 假設金門啊我請問關公署如果金門哪一天變成國際港啊或者我們這個通過以後變成這個自由貿易港你們也會對金門睜一隻眼閉一隻眼嗎就讓他隨便席產地嗎還是也會一視同仁一樣會去查核啊"},{"start":12661.377,"end":12689.251,"text":"跟委員報告我們海關查核的依據是風險就是說高風險低風險我們有不同的一個查核方式也是如果在進門你不會查核嗎會不會查核也是會嘛對不對你再進門會不會查核還是你閉著眼睛多會查核啊經濟部啊經濟部現在你們所提出對不起再一下經濟部還沒問到經濟部你們有所提出的這個部長提出息產第五大策略你現在是認為這針對這個七大自由貿易港區嗎"},{"start":12690.868,"end":12704.701,"text":"還是針對還沒有 我們都還沒做金門港自貿港區的部分是屬於交通部所以我們可以加強做相關的宣導所以你們這個防止席產店五個策略事實上我們金門都還沒有成立嘛還不是針對金門嘛 對吧"},{"start":12706.121,"end":12733.974,"text":"沒有針對特別的地區對嘛好那所以呢這個不是針對金門但是民進黨上下把他講成金門那我想請問最重要一件事情來這個財政部部長其實最重要的不是只在廠商的這種自己的這種自律而已關務署啦關務署到時候要加強查核不要中國大陸進來要向美國的貨品要加強查核是落在海關同仁方面我覺得現在部長我想請問你覺得現在海關的能力是夠不夠啊"},{"start":12735.322,"end":12760.136,"text":"海關人力那很吃緊我也知道委員一直很關心我們海關人力的部分那我也請署長去盤點那看尤其這一次我們要加強查緝的需要多少人力那也希望委員給我們支持是我像你看你們基隆關一千人台中關三百多人高雄關一千人但是現在包括了這麼多事情的不管要加快行政效率或者是要加強查核我們這個支持 全力支持這個情形都是"},{"start":12761.699,"end":12775.986,"text":"現在高雄 不是高雄關 關務所的人力就不足你們是不是應該財政部要趕快跟這個全序部要求再跟人事總書說這個員樂部要趕快增加是 已經在盤點當中這個是趁這個機會的話增加人力 增加行政效率"},{"start":12777.106,"end":12804.388,"text":"那個增加這個查核這個所謂息產地的這種力道違法那個嘛齁同時也要讓老百姓了解喔金門現在就是沒有這個辦法我們也不會成為所謂息產地的地方我們也當地也沒有加工廠也沒有這樣的能力啦齁所以請大家還是要把這些正常的這個所謂這個貿易的這個行為用正常的想法去想而不是一味的只要想要扣帽子啦齁好 以上好 謝謝義貞委員接著請羅明才委員質詢"},{"start":12814.178,"end":12840.867,"text":"主席各位出列席官員大家好主席可不可以請財政部莊部長經濟部姜次長還有農業部的杜次長好選莊部長還有就是姜次長還有杜次長謝謝委員好 自從這個關稅貿易戰開打事實上"},{"start":12841.892,"end":12869.929,"text":"我們全國的企業大家都是非常的緊張不曉得未來何去何從首先請教一下中部長五月中手稅就要申報了現在有什麼新的制度變革嗎往後延了嗎那如果今年度有困難繳不出錢的可不可以往後延或者可以申請明年再繳"},{"start":12871.51,"end":12895.979,"text":"跟委員報告今年的所得稅結算申報會延長一個月從5月1號到6月30號這樣讓民眾可以在因應這個相關的關稅政策的時候有一個寬廣時間來做申報那為什麼今年會往後延一個月就是剛剛講就是說因為民眾也好或者企業也好會受到這個產業這個部分他們可能要處理訂單或等等的事情而不要再"},{"start":12896.738,"end":12912.366,"text":"一個月內即時也去申報那讓他有一個比較寬廣的時間來寬闊的時間來做申報那至於如果說他沒有辦法在繳稅期間內繳清的話那也可以申請延期或者是分期那分期最長可以分到36期也就是分為三年來繳納"},{"start":12913.735,"end":12932.749,"text":"所以可以延期就對了對 可以延期或者是申請分期那也不計利息這個部分不用付利息啊不用計算利息 不要加計利息的OK 那我想這是一個很好的一個方法畢竟這個關稅大戰也不是這些中小企業組他們"},{"start":12935.202,"end":12956.804,"text":"自己犯了什麼錯而是因為大環境的改變所以謝謝部長向來我對中小企業的支持我是全力支持畢竟台灣過去經濟的發展都是靠中小企業一點一滴然後慢慢的逐步的成長"},{"start":12957.785,"end":12979.367,"text":"所以你剛剛說,繳不起錢的,就可以延後,分36期,或者是說還可以寫個報告,利息也都可以不用出,是不是?這個充值的話,我們申請延期分期是不用加計利息的,對好,謝謝,那另外很多的銀行啊,會不會抽銀根啊?"},{"start":12981.669,"end":13000.118,"text":"我想在我們在參與這個業者座談會的時候許多業者都提出說希望不要抽銀根那我們這個部分也特別有提醒說告訴他們說其實在不管你在續借或者是在延期的部分都可以跟原來的銀行去商討而且金管會也會跟經濟部還有銀行工會"},{"start":13003.312,"end":13021.568,"text":"去做討論希望給業者有比較好的一個寬緩的時間來做那也不能是做雨天收傘的動作謝謝我們希望說的要做到啦因為事實上現在有很多的這個社會上很多銀行已經開始抽銀根了"},{"start":13022.452,"end":13038.648,"text":"那沒有關係謝謝部長剛剛講的那麼誠懇而且那麼有善意對我們中小企業的支持所以在這裡也跟大家宣布如果全國各中小企業如果受到抽銀根的情況"},{"start":13040.129,"end":13068.781,"text":"會感覺企業經營困難因為企業經營不下去接下來就是裁員裁的又都是我們國人又是我們自己的兄弟姊妹所以我們是於心不忍的所以裁委會也是一個很好的申訴管道那另外再請教一下部長國安基金是不是已經配合八大公股銀行已經開始進場來承接了"},{"start":13070.316,"end":13075.699,"text":"經過委員會的討論以後已經授權我們的執行秘書可以去做有關的一個覆盤開始動起來了嗎我想這個部分我們的由執行秘書來做執行已經在4月8號開會4月9號就開始在執行了看起來這個金額夠不夠我想過往我們這個執行秘書在操盤的部分是非常有經驗的"},{"start":13100.681,"end":13115.295,"text":"那如果說錢不夠可不可以把去年政府超收的稅額5280億你也可以部分先來推動這些你所謂的護盤計畫"},{"start":13116.82,"end":13117.44,"text":"現在3000多億計畫怎麼用?"},{"start":13135.405,"end":13158.45,"text":"三千多億這個部分我們第一個就是還債也多還了一些債然後原來要借錢的部分也沒有借大概1750億也沒有借那其他的部分會到稅基剩餘當然這個部分稅基剩餘要必須到決算的時候才能夠確定也才能夠去動用現在全民苦哈那我還是站在民眾的立場來"},{"start":13160.543,"end":13179.979,"text":"跟部長請命啊就是全民還是需要期盼今年可以一個人發一萬塊的紅包一人發一萬快樂常相伴一人發一萬大人小孩通通有希望"},{"start":13181.212,"end":13201,"text":"希望部長記住苦民所苦因為最近便當長得不像話以前一個雞腿便當大概90後來變100部長妳知道現在便當一個多少錢大概100或120左右雞腿便當池上的霸西坑"},{"start":13202.682,"end":13228.249,"text":"所以我的意思是說 爭取的紅包是要來補貼這些嗷嗷嗷代補的一般的市井小民我們真的很需要 真的很需要我在外面第一線跑 大家都 有一些家長可能家裡有兩個小朋友一個是四歲 一個是小學一年級他們覺得現在連買奶粉錢"},{"start":13229.571,"end":13254.705,"text":"都有點困窘啊雖然我們上次奶粉關稅有降奶粉還是繼續漲啊部長你知道這個情況嗎我想委員一直都非常關心這個議題對我還是要繼續關心啊因為民眾的反應我們第一線就要把現實的情況來告訴部長部長另外再請教一下現在銀行啊這些"},{"start":13256.448,"end":13280.709,"text":"你管得到公費 手上是買了很多的美債有沒有統計累積的金額有多少這個部分我想我們會後會再把它累總以後 會總以後給委員銀行手上買了那麼多的美債那如果他 央行總裁說他到時候都不計利息等於是賴債 就是有點像倒債"},{"start":13281.96,"end":13310.242,"text":"那你怎麼控管這銀行會不會受到波及我想大家其實央行總裁也好幾次在立法院不管是財委會或昨天的院會質詢裡面都有做回應其實這個大家都這麼在說但是國際間好像對這個部分並沒有太多的討論之所以美債是安全的這個部分當然這個我不是這方面的專家這個怎麼判斷你要不要告訴央行總裁總裁很擔心"},{"start":13311.655,"end":13330.421,"text":"我想您今天的質詢央行總裁也一定都在看他人沒來啦希望你趕快跟他講因為本席在一年多兩年前就誠心問過總裁說那這個美國派遣公債會不會有問題"},{"start":13332.759,"end":13357.889,"text":"他當初講他說他會審慎來評估應該是OK可是這幾天他的說法已經開始感覺到是有危險的美國公債十年期的殖利率不斷的飆升啊這很不正常啊好 那我再來問一下 部長什麼叫做息產地"},{"start":13359.168,"end":13387.923,"text":"過去一二十年來有什麼國的產品在台灣是息產地的或是你要請經濟部說明都可以息產地我想大概大家就是一個稱法就俗稱嘛也就是說它不是我們台灣生產的Made in Taiwan但是是掛著MIT的這樣一個標籤就是這樣子啊對那就是產品的百分之多少是如果不是台灣做的就叫息產地"},{"start":13388.825,"end":13418.037,"text":"這個部分經濟部他們有相關的規範好 請經濟部事實上現在目前從大陸從東南亞進來的物品很多都是半成品那請問經濟部你怎麼來界定誰是誰洗的產品有兩個原則如果它經過這個處理之後附加價值超過35%的話就是認為是台灣的產品另外一個的話就是經過加工之後"},{"start":13418.499,"end":13433.724,"text":"整個稅號的完全的改變這個就叫做這個台灣的產品或是標籤把它換掉是不是標籤換掉的話就是違規的行為OK好謝謝可是你講的到底算不算呢你有跟川普溝通過嗎"},{"start":13439.598,"end":13456.347,"text":"這個未來的話我們會透過各種管道去跟美方去做說明因為現在我發現即便那邊講很多最後全部被推翻之前有人說斬釘截鐵說最多10%後來出來是32%現在對台灣的課的稅次長你估計是幾%半導體的部分"},{"start":13463.909,"end":13482.404,"text":"這個部分的話未來會極力的幫業者來做爭取我想最重要的就是要維護我們國家的利益還要保持產業的競爭力有沒有可能零關稅我們要是談判的情形我們一定會去爭取產業最大的利益還有這個國家的利益不要撇了夫人又折兵"},{"start":13483.755,"end":13510.247,"text":"上次你在這邊我跟妳建議我們還有很多的籌碼包括央行的外匯存底我們買了大概4000多億的美國公債你也可以做一個談判的基礎以及所有的金融銀行買了多少公債你們手上有資料嗎我們所有的資料都有做萬全的準備多少"},{"start":13513.234,"end":13538.744,"text":"好 那我再問你一個所有保險公司這點你都不知道啦保險公司買了多少美元公債你也不知道我跟你講啊 加一加喔也是好幾千億的美元啊所以我們都在講央行 其他都沒算進去可是這些都可以作為你談判的一個籌碼是不是 次長"},{"start":13542.802,"end":13571.036,"text":"是 我們會 談判團隊會把各種對我方有利的都會納入考量好 謝謝你等一下可以跟莊部長聊聊他手上還有很多籌碼他沒有一次告訴你謝謝但是現在面對國難當頭大家一定要團結在一起對不對我們要口徑一致我們要團結對外來保護我們國內的所有中小企業人民的生存"},{"start":13571.598,"end":13575.079,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝明察委員接著我們請王世堅委員質詢謝謝主席 我請莊部長還有經濟部江次長是 部長跟江次長"},{"start":13602.932,"end":13616.202,"text":"委員您好部長 市長 兩個問題第一個就是針對中國電商在我們台灣的銷售加以限制就是取消"},{"start":13617.662,"end":13643.367,"text":"中國低價免稅額這個部分我認為這是非常正確的事情但是我要請財政部考量的一點就是說請財政部刀下留人的就是說要取消這個低額2000元小額包裹免稅這個部分我認為針對中國的部分取消就好啦"},{"start":13644.535,"end":13669.627,"text":"為什麼呢 因為我們其實有20%的金額是進其他國家 像是美國進日本的保健食品而那是我們國人所需要的我如果用一句話形容就是說 其實那是我們深斗小民啊我們小市民們的小確幸而已嘛"},{"start":13670.56,"end":13693.63,"text":"第一個金額那麼小才兩千元我們這個免稅的門檻是全世界最低的你看看其他國家新加坡南韓日本那遠比我們高我相信部長這裡很清楚新加坡甚至高達美金298元一萬元台幣之多"},{"start":13698.598,"end":13720.291,"text":"即便日本低一點 88美金也3000台幣而且美日韓其他他們國家對於這個小額的部分他們還不限次數而我們2000元的小額這個包裹"},{"start":13722.035,"end":13742.794,"text":"還限半年六次等於一年十二次也不過兩萬四千元所以我認為這個部分這百分之二十總額百分之二十的這個小額包裹應該保留這是給我們深斗小民的小確幸"},{"start":13744.451,"end":13759.576,"text":"那至於80%從中國來的這個部分我覺得這一次去取消去設限是應當的啦因為避免他們洗產地嘛這是事實喔 這是事實那"},{"start":13761.428,"end":13776.966,"text":"他們中共的這個貨品席產地這個情況我相信部長你很清楚嘛他們整個貨櫃進到加拿大到墨西哥那邊然後再透過小額豁免這個條款"},{"start":13779.673,"end":13805.311,"text":"那麼他們透過他們中國的電商小額貨美這個大量的再去進去美國所以這次美國把它取消就是這樣欸 那個金額多高欸460億美金欸一兆五千億台幣啦所以這種大金額那這個當然美國他們的考量我們來借鏡是對的所以部長我希望"},{"start":13806.601,"end":13816.225,"text":"在這裡面我們台灣的金額多少我相信你們很清楚我們台灣的總金額總金額332億這個小額的這個小額包裹的部分332億裡面來自中國的那麼267億佔了80%"},{"start":13837.267,"end":13848.053,"text":"那這20%我剛剛跟您提到的生斗小民 小市民的小確幸我認為這個不要去碰 可不可以"},{"start":13850.087,"end":13869.802,"text":"謝謝委員對於小兒包裹免稅這個低價免稅這個部分我們真的以審慎的意義那委員建議就是說對於中國大陸來的部分做不同跟非中國大陸進來的做不同的處理這個部分我們都會納入都會納入參考那你現在初步看法呢我覺得我這個講法是非常好非常"},{"start":13870.862,"end":13873.583,"text":"確實你同委員所說的80%來自中國大陸那這麼大的一個數量的話會對我們國內的產業其實也會造成衝擊的對而且對乖乖舉舉的"},{"start":13885.305,"end":13909.154,"text":"比方說國外來的電商我舉例好了新加坡來的電商人家在我們台灣在國家在我們台灣登記人家也合法繳稅也接受我們政府他被我們政府納管嘛人家規規矩矩的做那最糟糕的就是中共的那邊的淘寶不是嗎"},{"start":13910.259,"end":13929.879,"text":"如果他真的有誠意來 他就來台灣登記嘛他也接受我們政府納管嘛 這才對嘛結果不 他們不這麼做那很可能未來就是可能被利用為席產地嘛"},{"start":13931.363,"end":13954.645,"text":"所以我認為說我們有全世界門檻最低的免稅額我們才兩千元那承諾我剛剛講的一年我們設限次數12次也不過兩萬四全世界最低國外尤其自由民主國家完全不設限次數而且每一次的金額都還比我們高"},{"start":13956.373,"end":13969.321,"text":"那然後呢我們還有全世界最高關稅的保健食品我們的保健品的關稅部長我們討論那麼多次了百分之三十現在經濟部這個"},{"start":13976.806,"end":13991.875,"text":"不曉得哪一天來的佛心啦聽久了經濟部你們願意說你們考慮那38要降到20%我希望你們說到做到啦說到做到這個保健品我們全世界最高啊"},{"start":13993.31,"end":14017.651,"text":"連日本那麼高也才14.5喔韓國8%美國6%那我們30%之多這也是這一次造成美國跟我們之間要求對等關稅的原因就在這裡所以我希望這個你們一起檢討啦第二點齁那個江市長"},{"start":14019.107,"end":14038.604,"text":"我是針對你啦 你帶話回去跟你們部長講好不好你們部長齁這幾天有講了啦就是說如果因為我們這次跟美國在談判當中很可能我們就是要降低汽車的進口關稅"},{"start":14040.322,"end":14068.851,"text":"因為汽車進口關稅不但數十年來我們這麼高還加上我們額外增加的在美國列入的這個叫做不當的額外稅負百分之三十的貨物稅所以相乘之下等於加了六成的稅金那這個也是造成對等關稅的要求談判那麼這一點的時候我認為你代話給部長"},{"start":14070.509,"end":14089.316,"text":"他身為部長要謹言慎行我們國家賴總統已經講了啊我們先釋出善意我們願意零關稅這當然是包括汽車啊結果郭部長就說說如果汽車關稅驟降會釀成十幾萬人失業"},{"start":14095.526,"end":14121.754,"text":"那個 次長這個我四個字形容這個叫危言聳聽而且對事實完全不了解我們講高關稅政府的錯誤不當的是說你高關稅這五六十年來你保護了特定的國產汽車業者就是育農保護了那個阿斗我們是指你保護了整車"},{"start":14123.857,"end":14150.593,"text":"是針對整車的部分我們汽車從業人員有十幾萬但是你要分整車跟零組件的整車裕隆他們六個廠加起來也不過一萬一千五百人哪來的十幾萬人另外零組件他們才是真的人多的"},{"start":14151.772,"end":14180.103,"text":"零組件2500家廠總共8萬5000位民眾在那邊工作但是零組件這數十年來是靠自己的努力研發成長受到國際大廠的肯定主動來下單給我們的零組件業者你看他們做的他們做的"},{"start":14180.987,"end":14207.259,"text":"不管是汽車燈 汽車大燈不管是保險桿 排氣管等等啦等等這些啊 都是美國大廠 歐洲大廠你像Mercedes-Benz啊 BMW啊 Porsche啊Massarotti 欸 他們主動來下單欸因為我們做得好 而且價廉物美"},{"start":14208.783,"end":14233.583,"text":"那這一部分經濟部別人可以不曉得經濟部很清楚啊台灣汽車零組件業者是我們台灣的光榮台灣的驕傲他每一年的產值640億美金耶2000億台幣他們不需要政府保護啊今天美國總統川普還釋出善意他還說"},{"start":14236.463,"end":14263.855,"text":"這次對等關稅汽車零組件的部分他說要豁免他說要豁免啊所以根本不需要嘛我們的汽車關稅降低那是針對整車業者我們汽車零組件業者不需要這些高關稅的保護更何況我們輸往美國的部分他們還要豁免"},{"start":14265.353,"end":14282.406,"text":"所以這是兩回事我希望你帶話回去給郭部長他身為部長一言一行洞見觀瞻他講的話就是代表我們整個行政會我們國家的經濟政策產業政策天啊不能把"},{"start":14289.309,"end":14311.306,"text":"這個數十年來表現這麼好的汽車零組件業者拿來當作整車業當作那個阿朵裕隆的保護傘拿他們來電底說這個不能降降了會影響十幾萬人的工作沒有 只影響裕隆 裕隆自己想清楚"},{"start":14312.697,"end":14327.945,"text":"其他的2500家的汽車零組件異業者人家活得很好 活得很光榮不需要任何保護也不要被部長拿去當作禦龍這個保護傘可不可以我回去會轉達跟向部長報告"},{"start":14339.741,"end":14361.233,"text":"你跟他要求這個事情啦好不好我希望以後不要再講這個事情啦好不好真正習慘地的是什麼那個莊部長真正習慘地的就是向日榮引進中國的AMG車他把中國的AMG車化整為零到台灣在台灣組裝所以就是稱為國產車啦"},{"start":14363.781,"end":14374.71,"text":"這才需要高關稅保護之下所以他用國產車的名義賣他總共前兩年他總共進了3到4萬輛銷售額超過300億"},{"start":14380.354,"end":14404.731,"text":"結果這才是真正的習慘地啊我們要針對的是大金額二列的這個無能的阿斗帶給我們台灣社會的傷害而不是針對小市民的小確幸一個小額包裹才兩千元而且我們還限制一年只能十二次"},{"start":14406.164,"end":14423.081,"text":"所以我說對中國的部分百分之八十的中國部分我們取消然後百分之二十對從美國日本進的小黑包括這個我們要繼續維持維護生土小民的小確幸可不可以"},{"start":14424.602,"end":14439.536,"text":"好你多久給我答覆好謝謝多久我們一個月好嗎一個月太久了太久了差不多一個禮拜一個禮拜趕快做出決定好不好好謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝世堅委員那接著我們請張祺凱委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":14462.347,"end":14466.38,"text":"請莊部長還有經濟部的姜次長還有農業部的杜次長"},{"start":14477.659,"end":14490.963,"text":"大家這段時間辛苦了我們現在共體時間在共護國難那個江市長還特別代表我們代表團去跟美國談判等一下有些進度我要請教你那我先問一個比較關鍵的其實這段時間這個談判引起大家最大衝擊的其實就是我們在總統說的從零關稅"},{"start":14499.732,"end":14511.202,"text":"開始談起那至少有三個層面影響會非常的大第一個是我們關稅直接會減損多少第二個如果真的是零關稅或者關稅非常低那對產業衝擊會很大還有非關稅的這個障礙我先來請教柏定 再見柏定關稅如果用從零關稅或很低的關稅去談馬上影響到就是你的關稅收入減少對不對"},{"start":14529.79,"end":14540.557,"text":"我們統計過113年從美國進口的貨物我們實際課真的關稅大概是7.5億美元大概247億7.5億美元你去年整體的關稅收入多少差不多1500億1609股尼關稅的收入是1609那美國呢"},{"start":14559.991,"end":14563.192,"text":"所以美國是247億我剛剛講是7.5億的美元在我們關稅的佔比高達15.38所以現在要跟全民講清楚如果真的我們的關稅歸零"},{"start":14575.838,"end":14604.214,"text":"對美的關稅歸零 從零關稅來算我們的稅損就是224億的新台幣了在我們關稅的15.38所以保定 你要極力也要試著要去爭取歸零這對全民的關稅收入影響非常的大在談判的時候 我想我們的談判團隊會有各種不同的相關的策略跟情境來做討論我想這個部分不是就像委員講說"},{"start":14605.234,"end":14629.184,"text":"全部都虧零啦好的談判就是有給有拿所以我才說你要給跟拿的同時你要抓好你要知道跟全民講說這邊牽扯到247億而且它更重要它不是只有美國如果是美國零的話零關稅那我們跟其他國家FTA那個會有很大衝擊欸最近我們光是跟紐西蘭你看一個先來"},{"start":14631.138,"end":14656.502,"text":"一個先來現在要零關稅進來對不對你看那個對台灣的那個產業就已經影響很大了對我們關稅也有影響啊所以部長我先問你這個問題我們讓全民知道關稅的損失零關稅是這麼大的那如果一趴兩趴當然損害會很大所以問財政部要盡量幫我們人民爭取權利另外裡面牽扯到一個比較大的這個進口關稅如果是零啊農業部的次長在現場我來問一下杜Sir"},{"start":14660.455,"end":14685.687,"text":"我看那個養雞協會歷史上有照出來說如果零關稅 聽到這個他們嚇都嚇死對不對 你有看到嗎 養豬協會也是緊張到所有跟農業跟畜牧業有關的看到這個零或者關稅很低都嚇到了我問你一下我們現在米啊米現在每一年從國外配合進來的米有多少"},{"start":14688.1,"end":14696.423,"text":"大概有14萬公噸14萬4720公噸美國就佔了其中的45%其中就佔了45%然後我跟你講 你知道我們台灣平均起來一公斤的米大概多少錢一公斤到哪裡 40塊左右 我們農糧署來"},{"start":14714.461,"end":14742.936,"text":"你現在平均一公斤多少錢平均白米是四十塊四十多嘛白米再加其他米大概五十米夠了米夠米差不多一公斤多少大概三十五塊左右三十到三十五嘛所以你看美國是大面積耕種他的米很多價格又比我們少那米如果進來你如果真的用你把取消配額我們現在用一個配額在那邊美國已經佔了我們的四十五趴了"},{"start":14745.646,"end":14769.798,"text":"配額現在是賣多少?一公斤四十五嘛配額內是賣多少?配額內是零關稅配額外四十五塊還有權利金權利金平均起來大概十幾塊所以你看我們台灣米差不多四兆到四十五塊美國米大概三十到三五他們配額進來四十五那你現在把它全部降到零關稅"},{"start":14773.259,"end":14785.516,"text":"那這完蛋了等於是美國將近30塊米進來打垮了我們台灣的50塊的這個米所以這米這一塊我明確的要求次長回去跟部長講清楚今天招信員都在米啊"},{"start":14786.499,"end":14798.483,"text":"不能零關稅而且價格不能太低所有談判都會以農業保障那些農民最優先一定要保障到農民的那個要不然的話我跟你講不只是那個整個米價整個被衝擊了我們30萬那個跟農有關係的到農生活就受影響了這就是內容喔我們的那個整個那個"},{"start":14806.147,"end":14813.169,"text":"整個那個農業會很大影響保障台灣農業最優先牛肉是10.10%嘛對不對豬肉12.5%雞肉現在雞肉傷影響最大雞肉如果是從20%以下降到零的話那就太慘了我知道大家主席已經站起來了我做個結論"},{"start":14833.902,"end":14863.297,"text":"我做要求三個結論 部長你聽一下現在我們都看到了 你看戴文老將 現在處境真的很艱困啊川普是從最高的32先丟出來 然後往下慢慢降我們是從零啊 我們必須要美國保護我們要表現我們的友善 甚至是投降 我們從零開始談你看兩個是落差非常的大的所以我們至少要做三件事情 我今天具體的要求第一 行政院本來我去行政院這個草野協商的時候啊"},{"start":14864.588,"end":14887.187,"text":"就說要提出一個細部的衝擊影響評估報告現在細部還沒出來在一個禮拜內給我這個第二個我們剛才講的我們現在全部都看到大部分都在講說什麼事我們賣到美國那邊關稅人家課多少可是我們國內現在人民影響會更大是什麼其實不是只有出去我們進來的時候剛講不是全部都用"},{"start":14888.428,"end":14910.981,"text":"不只不能零關稅關稅也不能太低要不然第一個剛講到的關稅損失的第二個對我們農產品對我們的產業影響很大所以這塊到底影響是什麼所以我要求第二個從經濟部跟農業部針對我國被迫要降低關稅這一塊甚至是零關稅你到底對我們衝擊有多大一個禮拜給我一份報告好不好這本來應該是你們就應該有的嘛對不對"},{"start":14914.224,"end":14929.083,"text":"當總統講說可能用從零關稅開始談 你本來就應該有這個東西囉好不好 一個禮拜時間給我這個 好不好第三個 現在還碰到一個問題 就是降低那個非關稅障礙貿易那個非關稅的那個障礙的影響那個衝擊報告也給我一份 一個禮拜 可以嗎"},{"start":14930.031,"end":14943.904,"text":"好 謝謝應該是總統對外講說從零關稅開始談應該是有的東西嘛市長你們手上應該都有對不對有吧你們不會打給總統吧應該有吧有齁那一個禮拜一個禮拜給我應該送過來我28號我們那個立法院的訪問團就要去美國一個禮拜內一個禮拜給我好 謝謝那接著我們請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":14964.266,"end":14990.281,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請財政部部長是 財政部部長備詢委員好部長 我接到任何檢舉我都很謹慎之前接到一個檢舉說我們公股房戶的董作 詐領公款拿公關費 採購餐券給家人用買營養品 買紙尿布"},{"start":14992.705,"end":15021.501,"text":"因為這個檢舉的內容太匪夷所思了因為我們工股航庫的董事長待遇應該不錯怎麼會拿公關費去搞這種事情但是任何人跟我提檢舉我就必須要處理所以我開始下去追了我發現土銀的公關費每年大概2800萬就工股航庫來講你有時候要去處理一些公關的事情我沒什麼意見"},{"start":15022.813,"end":15052.114,"text":"那董事長個人花的大概就百餘萬到兩百餘萬之間我把這些數字全部都調出來然後我進一步就請你們轉公股行庫說他是不是真的有這樣子的狀況請你們把他公關費到底怎麼花的細目交上來給我結果你們交上來就給我這麼籠統的東西那我進一步要求更細的資訊的時候土銀就不提供"},{"start":15053.342,"end":15080.923,"text":"土銀不提供 那我沒有辦法那我接下來就請審計部去查因為我不會輕易放棄的結果審計部查出來的確是買公關費去買高檔飯店的餐券然後沒有宴客的資料然後拿公關費去買營養品買嬰兒用品那顯然人家當初的檢舉全部都是有所本這件事情財政部知不知道"},{"start":15082.472,"end":15110.625,"text":"委員 之前的一個檢舉案我們有看到然後也請土銀去做調查是那所以調查的結果是什麼是查無此事是嗎調查的結果基本有一些是有但是有一些並沒有這樣一個情形譬如說我記得這個事情哪一些有哪一些沒有要不我記得是沒有並沒有這個情況因為我現在手上沒有照不可能記得到那麼細的一個事情是沒有關係今天國庫署的有來嗎"},{"start":15112.501,"end":15140.309,"text":"有事的我們署長有來國庫署知道這件事嗎部長記不清楚這我可以理解因為部長要處理的事情很多這個是國庫署的業務吧因為土銀是百分之百的國營事業所以這個應該是我們政風處收穩的所以是政風是直接處理沒有到國庫署是不是是由政風處他會交給土銀的政風來做調查是"},{"start":15140.765,"end":15165.321,"text":"那現在調查結果出來了嗎?調查結果我是有看到對那你們調查結果出來以後接下來做了什麼處理?第一個有一些部分其實並不是事實他們調查結果譬如說像尿布這些等等那有一些譬如說他還有檢舉一些譬如說他的父親什麼住院的時候什麼的一些很靈細的一個事情等等那基本上並沒有看出他有相關違規的一個情況"},{"start":15167.25,"end":15194.217,"text":"那奇怪了怎麼你們政風處查的跟審計部查出來的東西完全不一致是你們的標準比較寬鬆嗎我們有關公關費的使用像土銀它內規都有相關的規定的對啊 但問題現在重點就是有遵守規定嗎所以依照財政部的標準現在是有遵守規定喔這個部分經過政風處的調查過了 是的對啊 但我現在就跟你講啊審計部調查出來的結果就不是這樣啊"},{"start":15195.322,"end":15221.936,"text":"那審計部調查的結果我們是不是我回去再給他調出來看一下因為我審計部調查的結果我沒有我只有一個要求啦因為這件事情我如果沒有處理的話檢舉的人會覺得我好像跟被檢舉的對象有什麼特殊關係啊是不是不敢問啊不敢處理這件事啊但是我花了相當的時間啊去查這件事情以後發現人家檢舉就有鎖本嘛"},{"start":15222.95,"end":15247.602,"text":"人家不是亂講的嘛那你今天跟我講說你們的結果覺得沒有什麼問題但我看審計部的報告就不是這個樣子沒有關係我給部長我給你時間回去了解一個禮拜之內給我回覆那同時告訴我說財政部作為公股的管理機關這件事情打算要怎麼辦"},{"start":15248.843,"end":15271.917,"text":"是要認真追查還是這樣就算了可以嗎可以啊好謝謝可是黃國昌委員那個你查的是新的董事長還是舊的董事長舊的董事長舊的董事長記錄全部都在OKOK好謝謝黃國昌委員接著請林楚瑩委員質詢"},{"start":15284.353,"end":15308.009,"text":"謝謝美麗的主席 辛苦了 要撐到中午我有請莊部長以及我們經濟部的姜政次對 姜政次好 我們的莊部長跟姜次長部長 我想詢問的部分因為其實前面蠻多委員都已經詢問過那麼我就針對我現在想要理解的 來 下一張"},{"start":15309.566,"end":15325.718,"text":"我想其實防堵紅色供應鏈現在全世界都在清查自己在對美的貿易跟出口的部分那麼本席特別跟我們的關務署有提到那就是我們知道美國現在公佈的包括他們原本的這個現在雖然是暫緩"},{"start":15327.999,"end":15356.673,"text":"實施90天但是幾個國家在對等關稅的稅率當中像這個從50%到41%都有那麼台灣是32%那麼許多的國家像越南啦緬甸啦這些新南向的國家包括泰國的37%孟加拉的37%等等其實這個對台灣的影響就是過去我們當然也知道我們為了去紅供應鏈我們會有新南向的政策"},{"start":15357.193,"end":15363.179,"text":"那麼在這個部分呢根據本集現在所了解是台灣對美的副出口值從2016到2024那麼這8年來其實成長了153%過去大家都在問的就是說除了"},{"start":15372.288,"end":15396.223,"text":"我們直接對美的出口之外這種所謂的對美的副出口值在增加多年來8年就有153的時候到底是哪些物品又或者是說財政部或者跟經濟部之間有沒有一個詳細的數字因為過去我所關心的當然是我們直接對美的出口包括前幾名的有一些AI的"},{"start":15398.125,"end":15414.802,"text":"IC的電腦的供應的相關的周片零組件產品等等而這個副出口值扣合的是我等一下要問的題目就是這個進來台灣做了一定的加工之後再出去的這個更多因為台灣的這個技術上面非常好"},{"start":15415.222,"end":15427.435,"text":"我想問的就是財政部跟經濟部目前知道是哪些貨物嗎不知道也沒有關係那麼有沒有打算要做一定的清查來做交叉分析有沒有時刻表這個部分我們可以跟經濟部一起再來做一次清理好那麼經濟部這裡呢你們有去做了解嗎"},{"start":15438.391,"end":15455.159,"text":"我們回去跟財政部一起來討論好 那麼我希望你們壓一個時間點要多少的時間因為我們現在還是面臨著最美談判第一線在談判後面的後援必須要給足夠的子彈"},{"start":15456.239,"end":15481.545,"text":"談到了才會知道說到底有多少是我們直接對美的又有多少其實是算在我們這裡但事實上他從周邊國家我們需要說周邊國家如果他們的稅率現在是高於32%的那麼他就會持續的把這個quota算在我們這裡喔這個不涉及我們現在在講的紅色供應鏈但確實這個也是我們全球經濟布局上面必須要面對的問題要多少時間"},{"start":15484.246,"end":15503.012,"text":"是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間好不好好 謝謝因為兩個禮拜的時間非常寶貴我們只有90天可以來談判來看下一張我想最近大家都在講這個所謂自由貿易港區又或者是陳玉珍委員所提出來的就是有關離島建設條例當中是不是幫中國去開後門來洗產地"},{"start":15507.734,"end":15531.201,"text":"前面我們要擔心的是別的稅率對等關稅高於台灣的國家同樣的也用所謂的付出口值來加深我們對美的逆差順差但是在自由貿易港區有關於這個違法的部分是不是法環太低那麼這個部分是不是應該做討論那麼現在部內財政部有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":15532.267,"end":15551.883,"text":"市務委員報告對於自貿港區管理條例裡面因為管理條例這個部分是交通部主管那它這個部分處的是3萬元以上30萬元以下事實上是比貿易法來的低因為貿易法我們剛剛知道最高是到300萬那這個部分可以建議交通部是不是要考慮提高相關的罰則"},{"start":15552.864,"end":15567.077,"text":"好其實組織單位雖然是交通部啦但是我們現在全面所面臨的包括來自於國際上面或美方整個經濟情勢上面的壓力就像如您所說的他跟其他的貿易法方來說他的"},{"start":15569.199,"end":15571.48,"text":"確實新台幣3萬到30萬這個大家都會覺得說你到貿易港區被罰一下如果我可以賺幾個億我罰個30萬有什麼這個確實啦賠錢的生意沒人做但是沙頭的生意只要能夠賺"},{"start":15584.687,"end":15596.551,"text":"有人還是會願意這個部分我希望財政部經濟部跟交通部在這個部分我們在罰則的部分也必須要好好的一起來做一個通盤的檢討因為現在就是在我們面臨關稅談判的最前線的最後關鍵90天最後有一個來下一張我趕快的來講一下因為我們即將在立法院有一個跨黨派的訪問團包括我在內我們也都要到華府去當我們面對"},{"start":15612.897,"end":15638.676,"text":"外國的國會議員的時候他們只有一句話那就是你的立法院你所訂定的法規到底是協助中國席產地還是我們的法規是要杜絕中國席產地我在國防外交委員會的時候其實我質詢過江正次了次長會認為現在的國民黨所提出來的離島建設條例他們沒有打算要撤喔但是我也知道說實話啦"},{"start":15640.057,"end":15663.522,"text":"部長我現在不在財委會啦你要面對的這個提案人是在我們財委會的委員你可能不好說但是我就先問你離島建設條例為什麼會特別提出來就是因為金門它本身就不是一個國際港所以它無法用我們自由貿易港區對不對所以它現在另外提了這條我只問如果現在這個法案在立法院如果今天"},{"start":15664.982,"end":15680.788,"text":"財政部你不表態現在的立法院就是藍白會過多數他說今天明天議會說要拿出來表決就可以過喔所以我想問財政部的立場這樣的法案有沒有習產地的疑慮如果今天我遇到了美國的國會議員"},{"start":15682.589,"end":15704.182,"text":"我要怎麼轉達我們財政部經濟部的說法我要告訴他的是說現在的立法院就是藍白戰多數所以這種法案就是可以在金門過關可以大大地說我幫大陸地區的人民法人團體機構資金物品商品勞務跟服務他能夠政府適度地給相關的鬆綁會不會鬆綁這樣的法規請問財政部經濟部怎麼看要不要給鬆綁"},{"start":15712.003,"end":15725.089,"text":"這次在談判裡面有關違規轉運的部分還有出口管制是非常重要的一個談判的一個關鍵點我想這個部分要非常的注意所以政府會不會給大陸地區也是中國適度的鬆綁 會嗎"},{"start":15728.37,"end":15741.095,"text":"怎麼會對中國大陸來鬆綁呢因為他們被美國課徵145%的那個不是我是說他會進來台灣啊就是因為他課了145啊台灣現在目前是10啊那我們會加強的查核啊好會加強的查核經濟部也是嗎"},{"start":15748.158,"end":15759.148,"text":"所以本席見到美國的國會議員的時候我可以請他放心立法院雖然民進黨現在不是多數但是至少我們的中央政府會守住這種法案我們是堅決反對的不敢講喔那這樣子我跟兩位報告我們前方談判前方吃緊後方緊吃啊"},{"start":15771.206,"end":15782.51,"text":"很麻煩啊不會的我想大家我們會是談判團隊的最後的一個最好的後盾好絕對不會讓中國習產地至少這個話你們講得出來吧來部長會讓中國習產地嗎我們一定要努力的阻絕這樣習產地的行為好正次呢我們也不容許這樣的行為發生好謝謝好謝謝謝謝楚英委員接著請徐護魁委員質詢"},{"start":15805.163,"end":15809.605,"text":"謝主席 有請我們財政部莊部長經濟部姜政次還有國貿署副署長是國貿署副署長"},{"start":15824.421,"end":15842.63,"text":"部長好 三位好我想今天主要是針對中國大陸產品低價傾銷還有透過台灣吸產地一個問題我想本席也要提出最近我們一直在追的一個案子就是有關於中國啤酒大量傾銷來台灣的一個疑慮"},{"start":15845.211,"end":15853.478,"text":"那我想部長可以從這個圖示上的一個資料我們這個國產啤酒的市占率從2017年的65%降到2024年只有剩下47.8%反觀中國大陸的啤酒在台灣的進口從這個2015年的20"},{"start":15866.708,"end":15890.582,"text":"6%到目前為止足足成長了5倍到已經變成32%那我想這樣子的一個進口出口的一個狀況可以顯示這個中共這邊他們用國家的一個力量大量支持他們的啤酒的一個產業然後用大量傾銷的方式到台灣來那尤其我們自己在鄉下發現很多的這個雜貨店還有檳榔攤"},{"start":15893.143,"end":15913.713,"text":"都是佈滿他們的廣告他們的廣告不會寫說是大陸啤酒他們用百威 用Kirimba 用雪山這些名稱好像看起來是外國啤酒事實上全部都是產自於中國大陸這非常非常的危險而且他們每一瓶的單價都比我們國產啤酒還便宜那依我們調出來的資料"},{"start":15915.014,"end":15920.475,"text":"我們2024年中國啤酒內銷的單價是台幣23.94元當然國產啤酒這個單價我們是高達43.93元銷價的幅度高達45%所以我想一個價差的落差會造成我們很多的鄉親這個當然是選擇便宜的啤酒來飲用"},{"start":15937.279,"end":15950.291,"text":"但是這個就造成我們一個台灣一個很嚴重的一個國安危機那部長我想這個案子相關的業者他們也提出一個反傾銷的一個案子那財政部這個目前的處理進度請部長說明一下"},{"start":15951.701,"end":15968.274,"text":"對於中國大陸產製的進口啤酒已經由我們台灣的釀酒商協會提出申請然後申請反傾銷調查目前已經是由經濟部和財政部一起在調查當中那調查結果以後只要有傾銷的事實而且影響到國內的產業的話那麼就我們會提送到我們的關稅稅率審議小組來做審議那如果有這樣的一個情況就可以"},{"start":15977.08,"end":15991.902,"text":"合格初步的臨時課徵反請銷稅就可以做這個部長你們有沒有其他的外在壓力沒有啊 沒有啦 該怎麼做就怎麼做啊我們就是公平來調查嘛 當然要進行相關的調查是"},{"start":15992.472,"end":16022.055,"text":"那我想除了我們這個展開一個反傾銷的一個調查之外那我想本席這邊也期望我們當然還是要增加我們國內產業的一個競爭力那所以本席有針對因為過去我們這個主要我們台灣針對這個麥芽也好啤酒花也好栽種的面積有限那所以我想我們很多都仰賴進口但是這個總是有一個關稅的一個壓力那本席也提出了一個啤酒花關稅調降到齡的一個案子"},{"start":16022.515,"end":16049.949,"text":"那部長財政部這邊是不是會來支持這樣的一個增加國內產業競爭力的提案對於有關啤酒的產業裡面主要的一個原料是啤酒花跟麥芽那這部分那是不是要進口調降關稅的部分目前我們也還在研議當中是也要了解它實際上會不會有什麼樣的影響部長那這個大概多久時間可以給本席一個報告"},{"start":16051.769,"end":16073.059,"text":"這個部分我們是不是可以再這樣的話我們是不是再兩個月給委員一個報告好那就兩個月好謝謝委員謝謝那另外我想我剛剛特別提到這個中國的啤酒他們藉著這個Kirimba還有雪山還有這個甚至是不一樣的進口品牌來這個進口"},{"start":16075.72,"end":16098.03,"text":"那官網又特別打出了一個台灣原創的一個品牌實在是匪夷所思那更遺憾的是台北市政府在調查的時候竟然還包庇這個竟然查不出一個具體的一個成果讓我們非常遺憾那部長我想你在我們這個圖示上面從九類標示的管理辦法第13條上面的第一款就有特別提到"},{"start":16098.53,"end":16125.143,"text":"所謂一個地理標示他就是必須要足以證明該來源是該商品的原產地而且應該也符合各該地區的一個國家的一個規定那我想寫得那麼清楚那部長站在主管機關我們可以放任地方政府這樣混淆一個產品的販售嗎不可以剛剛其實委員講的像剛剛幾款那個啤酒他不就是把那個外面譬如說"},{"start":16126.199,"end":16146.277,"text":"飆上宜蘭的蔥、蔥油餅、黑鮪魚等等那這個部分造成消費者的混淆所以這個部分依照管理辦法我們財政部的國庫署已經發解釋函令地方政府要確實好好的查而且不能有混淆的情況什麼時候調查的報告會拿到"},{"start":16149.853,"end":16173.711,"text":"這個我們解釋函令已經發下去了,是不是署長可以說明一下是,跟委員報告,剛剛我們部長講的一些那種足以讓消費者混淆誤以為原產地不是在台灣的這樣的一個誤認的事實的話我們這個解釋令,也就是說不管是酒的包裝或者是廣告都不能有這樣的情形,那這個解釋令已經發了"},{"start":16175.668,"end":16180.834,"text":"但是我們執行面有問題啊那這個部分的話地方政府他們會依據我們的解釋令去落實執行"},{"start":16189.332,"end":16212.941,"text":"我希望還是財政部要再緊追啦這個部份要緊追而且也要求地方政府要有相關的進度基查的進度要回報回來好是好那最後一個我想針對農產品息產力的部分還是要請我們相關單位做好準備尤其這個我們現在關稅的競爭之後很多我們的農業產品很可能變成這個中國的一個息產力的一個"},{"start":16214.221,"end":16230.844,"text":"出口的一個很重要的一個要件那所以這部分我們過去的一個裁罰基準是不是有應該要做提升甚至做有效的管制我想這個請相關單位再做好研議謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝副科委委員謝謝那接著請陳冠廷委員質詢你好我們請部長財政部部長"},{"start":16249.372,"end":16275.747,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們今天針對反傾銷的調查的效率我們是非常重視的原因是因為我們擔心中國會用補貼或者用便宜去化的這個大量出口美國的貨品然後來傾銷到台灣那為了要做這些事情署長是不是可以請你提供過去三年財政部負責的傾銷事實調查階段從案件受理到完成"},{"start":16276.667,"end":16305.013,"text":"到完成的平均處理的市場大概是怎麼樣是不是有逐年縮短這個趨勢相較於其他國家的效率我們的表現是如何我想這樣的一個程序是WTO相關都有規定的一個程序那我們在我們報告裡面提到事實上我們目前來說已經採取反擊銷售是總共有十件八件都是中國大陸的一個產品那我不知道委員您是要過去三年的一個資料是不是"},{"start":16305.475,"end":16319.903,"text":"我首先要在我們口頭諮詢的時候我要知道趨勢那接下來再請書面給我們資料你說趨勢是那個量的一個成長的一個狀況我們是說趨勢的平均逐年時長是不是有逐年縮短時間是吧"},{"start":16321.764,"end":16332.567,"text":"時間這個部分的話因為他一定要有一定的一個階段那我們都會在這個階段裡面如果除非有特別必要才給延期大概時間大概都需要將近一年的時間所以如果在這個過程當中我們要怎麼樣去面對這些挑戰就是市場如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":16344.949,"end":16371.595,"text":"這個過程當中一個經濟部會去做調查還有財政部也會去做調查那調查結果會事實上會在我們的關稅稅率審議小組裡面去做討論然後才認定以後來給予相關的課徵反請銷稅好謝謝那第二個部分那個是針對我們地區我們嘉義高山茶它是一個很特色的農產品那我們擔心說這個這邊農業部不好意思請農業部的官員"},{"start":16381.239,"end":16398.751,"text":"我們擔心關於境外茶混沖的問題當然農業部已經在1、2年有實施國產茶的強制溯源的狀況但是還是有偽冒產地的問題還有很嚴重的去侵害到我們農民的利益還有我們台灣農業的生育"},{"start":16400.632,"end":16414.336,"text":"目前鑑定的科學技術應用於市售通路市售通路的產地抽驗這樣子的頻率或者是說範圍有沒有產生足夠的嚇阻效果"},{"start":16416.124,"end":16435.747,"text":"就那個檢驗的方法公告之後其實不只是在比賽茶各通路還有就是只要標示是台灣茶就一定要是台灣茶那如果其他有拼配或是有其他那就不能用那現在的方法在不管是在市售通路賣場或是在比賽的狀況其實都已經有大幅改善那"},{"start":16436.331,"end":16460.65,"text":"我們現在還有聽到說有DNA的這個檢驗技術它已經慢慢的普及了現在有這個趨勢嗎目前我們茶葉檢定方法還是以這個同位數微量同位數的方式因為它相對敏感跟整個資料庫是完整的那哪一個就是你剛剛提到的跟我們現在講的這樣子哪一個的檢驗成本會比較低廉或者是考量性價比的話是"},{"start":16462.074,"end":16486.423,"text":"應該這樣說啦其實對我們來講讓能夠掛上台灣茶國產茶的這個品牌其實是必要的所以我們其實當初在開發方式是以它的準確跟可行可行可推廣使用的方式來做目前用起來其實是都還算是在普及率或是在它的特異性敏感性正確性其實都有蠻好的結果"},{"start":16486.923,"end":16512.301,"text":"那對於防範那些偽餐的或是冒用的其實也有很好的成果那現在我們主要的這個境外茶來去混應該是說中國現在根據你們的報告已經我們禁止中國茶葉的進口現在主要是來自第三地的進口茶葉來去混應該是哪一個國家為主東南亞是越南有一些但是他就要標示他的原產地"},{"start":16513.622,"end":16530.636,"text":"還是希望說我們剛剛講那麼多不管是在這個檢測或者是說在它的範圍等等如果能夠可以把它的這個能源資源更放下去那確保說我們這些重點的茶葉能夠被守護住謝謝委員支持台灣農業 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝冠廷委員"},{"start":16537.076,"end":16555.606,"text":"那接著我們請鄭振權 鄭振權 鄭振權委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在黃婕 黃婕 黃婕委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在"},{"start":16557.307,"end":16583.755,"text":"楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英 我言不在洪孟楷 洪孟楷 洪孟楷 我言不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉 我言不在蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜 我言不在劉喜婷 劉喜婷 劉喜婷 我言不在葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝 我言不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳 我言不在好"},{"start":16586.277,"end":16607.813,"text":"今天登記花園的委員 經已詢答完畢本日會議作如下的一個決定 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊 請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另外要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":16609.033,"end":16629.526,"text":"委員 劉喜婷 黃婕所提的書面執行經列入紀錄 刊登公報並且相關部會以書面答覆本次會議議程已進行完畢倘若有不在場的委員補題書面執行一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理 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AI薛良斌共同創辦人謝謝"},{"start":2318.43,"end":2341.81,"text":"陽明交通大學科技法律學院林志傑特聘教授謝謝台北醫學大學大數據科技以及管理研究所許明輝教授許教授謝謝軍醫平台教育基金會呂冠偉董事長兼執行長謝謝財團法人台灣人工智慧學校基金會侯一秀侯秘書長謝謝"},{"start":2344.721,"end":2364.189,"text":"Go Go Look政府關係暨公共政策林益榮經理 謝謝Go Go Look中央研究院制裁暨轉促邱文聰處長 謝謝中央研究院法律學研究所李建良特別研究員 謝謝"},{"start":2367.264,"end":2383.377,"text":"資訊工業策進會 資策會 洪玉祥博士 洪博士 謝謝Libes Consulting Group 王志清 共同創辦人 技術會長 謝謝台灣大學資訊工程系 徐永珍教授 謝謝"},{"start":2387.864,"end":2405.363,"text":"那本次邀請與會貴賓國立台灣大學資訊工程學系陳育農教授無法親自出席已先將意見進行錄影將與與會委員貴賓發言後播放影帶另外今天我們有收與老師做翻譯也有同步的聽打服務非常非常的感謝"},{"start":2406.184,"end":2420.07,"text":"那待會需要表達意見的時候請到我右手邊的質詢台發言因為我們只有兩位手語老師他們非常辛苦再次感謝這樣他們就不用一直移動如果大家都在右邊的質詢台發言的話"},{"start":2421.291,"end":2442.982,"text":"他們就可以很方便的來替各位來進行翻譯所以我們就在右手邊來發言請大家配合以利手語老師的畫面轉播那如果需要觀看聽打的服務也歡迎到立法院議事轉播網際網路多媒體隨選視訊系統也就是IVOD的頁面當中提供"},{"start":2444.362,"end":2457.427,"text":"我們在這個上面都會有錄影也會有直播那便於收看即時的字幕今天我們安排三位聽打員葉惠慈 陳君如 黃之林兩位首議員李振輝 蕭匡宇我們給他掌聲謝謝一下"},{"start":2461.048,"end":2482.869,"text":"为了大家能够顺利的表达意见我们做如下处理每位贵宾发言时间为7分钟在第6分钟的时候我们会有铃声提醒7分钟结束的时候会有一个结束铃声专家学者的发言呢将以这个优先次序为准现场发言以及书面资料立法院会做成记录刊登公报"},{"start":2483.57,"end":2499.385,"text":"在場的立法委員如果有意見發表請於10點鐘以前登記那10點鐘以前有登記者我們也會在會議中進行穿插並以在場委員登記順序來發言那委員如果要發言一樣請至主席台這裡來登記"},{"start":2500.726,"end":2518.527,"text":"那今天呢因為有這個貴賓呢剛好有臨時的一個行程那我們非常非常感謝也拜託我們這個就先有請我們的第一位發言者呢中華民國資訊經理人協會蔡奇岩理事長來進行發言謝謝"},{"start":2540.42,"end":2555.838,"text":"葛主席還有各位來賓 各位先進大家好我是資訊經驗協會的理事長蔡企業針對這一次的人工智慧基本法我們協會主要是代表資訊產業還有產業的IT這些夥伴們"},{"start":2560.583,"end":2576.271,"text":"那我們覺得這個法案的訂定是很好的而且進度應該要再加速一點因為Global AI Index其實也考慮各國立法的進度那確實大家也應該有個法律可以依循那針對今天的兩個主要的法案"},{"start":2579.372,"end":2602.672,"text":"那葛偉源的版本還有邱偉源的版本那有以下幾個建議第一個是第一條是關於那個AI的Chaining Data在葛偉源的版本的第13條第15條都有涉獵到那我們覺得但是在邱偉源的版本似乎比較少那我們覺得這個是蠻重要的因為AI其實要訓練就靠Data"},{"start":2603.513,"end":2624.093,"text":"那我們覺得應該要納入這些說明尤其產業其實很需要在training data上面可以再積極一點也就是考慮在就像博士班在寫論文的時候其實應該要看的是他寫出來的論文有沒有清全有沒有抄襲"},{"start":2625.054,"end":2645.356,"text":"而不是去管他在寫論文的階段讀了誰的論文所以AI在學習的時候是像這樣子的他去看了誰的資料然後去學學起來了其實最終他會不會侵害制裁權是看他生成出來的東西或者是使用者在用他的時候怎麼用"},{"start":2646.477,"end":2669.633,"text":"那所以我們其實比較主張在訓練階段是不涉及制裁權的啦那至少我覺得在立法上希望可以往這個比較積極的方向走那如果往前走一小步也許至少現在Data Mining的合理使用方面能夠先訂出一個規範讓大家可以往下走第二點是關於那個"},{"start":2670.553,"end":2687.458,"text":"閣委員版本的第12條跟邱委員版本的第4條都有談到政府應該要提供租稅獎勵等等優惠那這個我覺得方向是很好但是實務上我希望在座的時候各部會可以盤點現在所有租稅優惠跟獎勵優惠那些表格"},{"start":2688.278,"end":2711.537,"text":"我講直白一點就是產業其實會我們的會員其實跟我們反映過曾經在某一次智慧機械的補助審查各位聽到智慧機械這個名字其實它是包含軟體因為現在所謂的智慧機械包括AI這些軟體都是智慧機械可是因為這個名字本身叫機械以至於在某一個"},{"start":2712.538,"end":2735.234,"text":"我們某一個廠商在產業審查智慧機械的租稅獎勵的時候直接跟被審查委員丟一句話說智慧機械只補助工廠自動化機械所以直接把所有軟體的都剔除掉了那這個就是一個沒有把名字寫清楚或者在"},{"start":2736.574,"end":2762.14,"text":"這個補助條文過去用了我們所謂的硬體製造那個年代訂下來的那些表格沿用到現在都沒有改那以至於在各個地方落實的時候會出現很大的問題我建議所以確實AIJR去發展政府的這些租稅獎勵等等都很重要但是往下一步就是請各部會把那些表單都整理一下那第三個是關於那個"},{"start":2765.267,"end":2793.274,"text":"Open Data這塊台灣應該要整理一個台灣Common Data Set也就是我們的台灣人用的各種語料包括繁體的中文、台語、客語、原住民語不管是文字或語音盡量政府在這邊要去提供更多的支持不見得是錢比如說IMA我們資訊經理的協會其實我們有做了一個project叫台灣Tons其實我們才一個月的時間已經獲得了"},{"start":2793.914,"end":2817.761,"text":"光在台語方面原本我們台灣的這個common data set只有400萬字的台語文我們一個月內我們就募集到了另外500萬字比原來的又多變成兩倍以上的這個數據可以息息授權給所有開源的AI專案所以我覺得像這樣子怎麼去把台灣common data set"},{"start":2818.461,"end":2833.034,"text":"推動公司合作那以IMA資訊經理的協會我們做這個其實也沒有跟政府拿半毛錢那大家有熱情就可以做那政府要做的就是支持肯定鼓勵這樣就很好了那再來是"},{"start":2834.116,"end":2848.845,"text":"有一個策略上在推動兩位委員的版本可能都沒有提到我是覺得open source可能是台灣最大的出路也就是在研發AI的時候我是覺得是不是在法條裡面可以再補上就是應該要積極鼓勵推動"},{"start":2850.646,"end":2868.939,"text":"台灣的各個產業在研發的時候投入開源那不只是用open source而是台灣應該有組織有策略的去投入在open source的社群裡面去貢獻因為只有透過你有貢獻你才會在全球有影響力能夠在美中這兩個"},{"start":2870.941,"end":2890.274,"text":"這個兩大這個科技大的這個經濟體下面我們能夠在open source的世界取得一席之地那這個我覺得應該是不是在法條裡面可以訂那最後一個建議就是兩個版本的法條其實都沒有提到關於救濟跟權責那我也建議可以加"},{"start":2890.914,"end":2916.911,"text":"那救濟全責的意思就是說將來會有在用AI的時候會有分所謂的製造者平台跟使用者那也許不一定會適合在基本法定可是應該要指導後面的立法要明確下來就什麼情況是製造者的責任什麼情況是平台的責任那麼使用者受到侵害的時候應該要向誰提出救濟那由哪一個主管機關來"},{"start":2918.332,"end":2942.475,"text":"進行仲裁等等 這個在未來應用的時候也是很重要的以上發言 謝謝好 謝謝蔡理事長的發言那我們也歡迎我們蔓玉珍委員好 謝謝那我們接下來介紹今天非常感謝所有的與會官員國家科學及技術委員會國科會副主任委員陳秉宇副主委"},{"start":2944.799,"end":2956.482,"text":"國科會前瞻級應用科技處副處長王紹明副處長 副處長數位發展部常務次長葉寧 葉次長 謝謝數位發展部數位策略師師長蔡壽權 蔡師長好 數發部數位政府師高級分析師關長志 謝謝"},{"start":2972.325,"end":2983.775,"text":"數位發展部資料創新師 高級分析師 陳景榮數位發展部法制處副處長 吳一倫副處長 謝謝數位發展處數位產業署副組長 鍾嘉榮副組長 謝謝"},{"start":2994.113,"end":3020.547,"text":"教育部次長待會可能會到那我們先介紹教育部資科師師長吳穎田師長謝謝教育部高等教育師專門委員吳志偉教育部技職師專門委員陳映璇教育部國民及學前教育署主任秘書張永傑行政院教育科學文化處處長吳靜茹中央研究院"},{"start":3022.492,"end":3036.097,"text":"資訊科學研究所副研究員莊廷瑞 謝謝考試院考選部研究委員黃立賢考試院考選部專門委員楊文宜 謝謝國防部戰略規劃師建軍規劃處處長翁宇恒 謝謝 謝謝處長財政部複稅署專門委員劉旭峰 謝謝"},{"start":3049.827,"end":3062.959,"text":"法務部參事汪南君參事 謝謝經濟部經濟法治司副司長黃婉玉副司長 謝謝經濟部智慧財產局副局長張玉英副局長"},{"start":3065.124,"end":3087.541,"text":"經濟部產業發展署副組長蔡中平副組長謝謝經濟部中小企業署專門委員張淑儒專門委員經濟部產業技術師檢任繼政戴建成好有的是坐在這邊那交通部交通科技及資訊師副司長王東琦謝謝勞動部綜合規劃師專門委員林永裕謝謝"},{"start":3095.147,"end":3101.193,"text":"勞動部勞動條件及就業平等師專門委員侯松妍謝謝勞動部勞動關係師專門委員莊美娟謝謝衛生福利部資訊處副處長王美珠謝謝文化部綜合規劃師副司長陳怡靜"},{"start":3116.032,"end":3126.22,"text":"謝謝國家發展委員會法治協調處檢任視察林興文謝謝行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員陳怡君"},{"start":3129.915,"end":3147.086,"text":"謝謝個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組組長林郁佳謝謝行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員李易柔謝謝金融監督管理委員會法律事務處處長林志憲謝謝"},{"start":3149.895,"end":3173.226,"text":"那大家可以看到我們人工智慧真的涵蓋範圍非常廣所以我們今天在這個公聽會裡面能夠有產官學界還有這麼多的部會派代表來聆聽我想我們今天應該會非常非常的順利也是非常非常重要的一個里程碑那我們現在先請國科會陳秉宇副主委就現行規定執行狀況相關等問題提出說明時間五分鐘"},{"start":3188.494,"end":3191.523,"text":"主席各位委員以及在場的參選人先敬大家好"},{"start":3193.445,"end":3219.332,"text":"推動台灣成為人工智慧指導師政府重要的施政方向那因為AI將帶動各行各業的應用發展並讓我國在國際的重要供應鏈中站穩腳步但是AI在帶來經濟效益的同時也可能帶來新的風險因此我們需要訂立AI的發展原則以確保政府推動方向一致並且要建構AI技術與應用的良善環境"},{"start":3220.672,"end":3245.013,"text":"人工智慧基本法草案規劃AI發展的七大基本原則跟政府的四大推動重點作為引導我國各機關發展與促進AI應用的原則本草案於去年的7月進行預告並爭詢利害關係人還有相關團體的意見經整合各界意見後我們在10月22日呈報行政院並且在11月22日進行審查作業"},{"start":3247.695,"end":3274.638,"text":"因應各界關切重點多為AI產業發展及應用以及相關的風險管理資料治理的議題而且AI的應用涉及保護國家安全還有人民的權益行政院在今年的2月26號指示將人工智慧基本法草案改由速發部主政辦理立法作業還有後續的條文解釋而有關AI應用涉及相關作用法部分"},{"start":3276.885,"end":3301.763,"text":"則仍是會透過行政院數位政策法制協調專案會議的機制盤點檢討各部會重要作用法的推動情形本會則會專責致力發展AI科研透過補助頂尖學研機構聚焦當前AI關鍵議題研究支援百工百業智慧轉型所需知AI基礎模型演算法還有應用核心技術"},{"start":3302.903,"end":3323.5,"text":"並且持續強化各項AI人才的培育包含基礎研究系統開發還有跨領域應用等等同時也積極鏈接重要國際夥伴建立科研合作關係吸引全球AI人才還有資源匯聚台灣共同完善AI整體研發及應用環境在AI發展"},{"start":3324.721,"end":3347.008,"text":"與國際情勢的快速變化下人工智慧基本法草案確實有其制定的必要性目前本草案的規劃以綜合考量各國作法還有我國國情透過確立AI研發與應用的基本原則定瞭國家重要發展方向再促進產業發展與風險平衡的中間取得平衡進而提升國家競爭力"},{"start":3348.608,"end":3364.255,"text":"在今天的公聽會當中各位專家學者的建言可進一步完善人工智慧基本法還有相關法規本會也將納入大家的意見還有建議來推動AI的科研發展共同奠定我國AI永續發展的基礎謝謝大家"},{"start":3367.069,"end":3379.207,"text":"謝謝陳秉宇副主委的發言謝謝那我們接下來有請數位發展部彥寧常務次長發言那待會是教育部的吳穎田司長依序說明時間5分鐘"},{"start":3392.715,"end":3414.796,"text":"主席趙偉國務委員在場的各位委員以及來自於這個產官學界各界的先進代表大家早安大家好今天非常榮幸能夠來到這個教科文委員會來就人工智慧基本法的公聽會來聆聽各位的這個這個高見那本部也先就我們目前在國內外人工智慧法是現況"},{"start":3415.717,"end":3434.509,"text":"以及在建構台灣的AI產業生態系本部的相關的作為跟各位先做一個簡要的報告首先人工智慧的技術的今年的發展被世界上普遍認為是整體產業或社會活動會帶來非常廣泛而且深入的改變而且對我國企業跟發展"},{"start":3434.949,"end":3457.928,"text":"提供了关键的竞争优势同时也可能对个人或社会带来风险或影响鉴于人工智慧的技术创新的速度以及它可能面临的挑战全球的各个主要国家都致力在不妨碍技术创新跟产业发展前提下寻求建立人工智慧治理的方针与原则我们纵观世界上各国"},{"start":3458.368,"end":3478.625,"text":"大概會認為有這個治理的模式大概會有兩個主要的趨向一個依照國情可能會有譬如像美國或英國或日本或新加坡比較強調以軟法的形式確立人工智慧的發展的基本原則運用人工智慧的風險的管理的框架"},{"start":3479.105,"end":3508.202,"text":"推動可信任的人工智慧的發展那我們看到歐盟乃至於韓國會採取比較具有拘束力的監理架構那我們台灣借盡這個國際治理的模式發展思維特別會考量到人工智慧趨勢日新月異同時我們也需要保障的基本人權那我們也會贊成以制定基本法的立法模式來宣示人工智慧的基本原則那促進剛剛主席特別強調的"},{"start":3508.902,"end":3524.056,"text":"以人為本的人工智慧的研發來應用也保障國民的人格尊嚴權利來提升國民的生活福祉維護國家主權安全跟文化價值增進永續發展跟國家競爭力作為主要的立法宗旨"},{"start":3524.736,"end":3547.191,"text":"那为了借鉴国际并且切合我的国情人工智慧基本法目前行政院在研议的草案是立足于鼓励创新兼顾人权的核心理念以七大基本原则为框架明确的来定谋国家在AI发展方面的方向同时平衡产业创新跟风险管理的架构那我们参考了这个英美的这个"},{"start":3547.871,"end":3572.098,"text":"鼓勵創新發展跟歐盟的兼顧人權的這個精神那包含了永續性人類自主性隱私保護資料治理安全透明可解釋性公平性跟可問責的七大管理原則並規劃創新合作金人才培育以及風險管理應用負責權益保障及資料利用法規調適跟業務檢視等等作為四大推動重點作為引導我國各機關發展跟這個"},{"start":3574.099,"end":3596.264,"text":"促进人工智慧应用的原则那我们为了审慎研议刚才国科会的副助理也提到我们在持续的征行产业界学界的意见而且也透过行政院的政委所主持的平台来进行讨论来凝聚共识那基本法草案去年在国科会已经在去年7月已经预告了"},{"start":3596.644,"end":3612.849,"text":"那有鑒於這個AI應用發展跟保護國家安全有密切相關行政院的確在2月指示這個基本法草案有改由本部來進行推動立法而且續行條文的解釋那我們會全力以赴希望能夠在這段時間由行政院通過來送請大院來審議"},{"start":3614.449,"end":3639.896,"text":"那本部當然除了這個法案的推動之外我們也持續的推動AI的產業發展我們透過算力資料人才行銷資金等五大政策工具會積極的投資台灣的AI新創事業希望能夠讓AI的創新來自於我們民間企業的活力並由政府及產業共同協力來打造完整的AI產業投資的生態系來加速數位經濟產業的發展"},{"start":3641.676,"end":3665.495,"text":"那政府會持續的聽聽各位的建言那適時調整法規跟配套措施希望通過本法的推動領領台灣在全球的AI創新暗潮中能夠佔領關鍵的地位同時維護國家的主權跟文化價值創造更有智慧安全而且永續的數位社會那今天非常謝謝大家的指教那我的報告到此結束謝謝"},{"start":3669.912,"end":3675.499,"text":"謝謝速發部葉司長接下來有請教育部吳穎田司長說明時間5分鐘"},{"start":3688.259,"end":3708.36,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生及在場的各位先進大家好今天大院教育及文化委員會交通委員會舉行制定人工智慧基本法草案聯席公聽會教育部呈邀列席並得聆聽各位委員著見深感榮幸"},{"start":3709.361,"end":3723.087,"text":"承蒙各位委員長期對教育事務之關心敬請繼續指正與支持教育部長期致力於AI人才培育相關的推動工作我們也積極在推動"},{"start":3725.448,"end":3742.057,"text":"各方面的一個相關的一個學習資源我們希望透過各個學習多元的學習管道讓學生有機會有興趣去了解AI以及應用AI以下僅就本部所推動的三大主要"},{"start":3742.677,"end":3768.203,"text":"AI相關的一個業務跟各位做說明第一部分是紮根中小學的人工智慧教育教育部開發許多通用型的人工智慧夥伴以及英語聊天的一個機器人我們將它融入許多的一個學習平台希望透過這樣子的一個融入方式讓我們的學生都有機會使用AI來進行學習"},{"start":3770.29,"end":3794.156,"text":"再來教育部也積極發展AI相關的一個補充性的一個教材教案以及這樣子的一個數位內容我們也積極推動大學教師寫手高中進行遠距教學我們開設AI的高中的一個多元選修課程我們希望提供城鄉學生均等的一個學習機會"},{"start":3796.769,"end":3811.744,"text":"接著我們教育部也持續辦理AI素養的爭霸賽以及科技教育創新實作競賽我們希望鼓勵參賽的學生能夠學習AI的程式設計以及AI的程式發展"},{"start":3812.344,"end":3837.48,"text":"那在第二部分教育部也積極建立中小學的教師的一個支持系統教育部積極辦理職前與在職教師之AI學習真人活動除此之外教育部也發布了中小學數位學習教學指引中小學使用人工智慧注意事項我們提供現場教師AI最新的一個進度以及教學勢力"},{"start":3838.36,"end":3854.166,"text":"那在第三個部分教育部也積極提升高等教育人工智慧的教學量能教育部成立台灣大專校院人工智慧學習聯盟也就是所謂的一個TICA透過這樣子的一個方式開設"},{"start":3855.766,"end":3868.393,"text":"AI的課程供學生做跨校的一個學習除此之外教育部也積極推動人工智慧技術及應用人才培育計畫發展大學AI人才培育的一個課程地圖"},{"start":3869.682,"end":3888.008,"text":"希望透過這樣的一個課程地圖引導資電學院及非資電學院規劃及開設人工智慧技術及應用系列的一個課程除此之外教育部也辦理全國性的人工智慧專業領域競賽也就是所謂的一個ACAP"},{"start":3888.428,"end":3893.372,"text":"希望透過這樣的一個競賽主題 能夠扣合重點產業領域讓學生能夠與時俱進 能夠獲得實務的訓練"},{"start":3903.206,"end":3920.204,"text":"此外在教育部所核定的產學創新研究學院當中有五個是人工智慧領域的一個研究學院希望透過這樣子的一個方式我們能夠建置大學當中AI應用教學實作領域"},{"start":3921.305,"end":3943.815,"text":"並推動實作領域的一個精進計畫我們也希望能夠協助技專院校充實AI的一個教學場域強化AI技術及相關的一個應用的一個課程及師資未來教育部將持續推動及深化各學習階段的一個AI教育與人才培育以上報告 敬請各位先進會議指導謝謝各位"},{"start":3947.072,"end":3961.509,"text":"好 謝謝吳穎田市長的說明接下來我們依簽名順序請專家學者薛良斌共同創辦人發言接下來麥玉珍委員請準備"},{"start":3974.205,"end":3993.228,"text":"主席,各位先進,大家好。我是薛良斌。我是MediaAndy這家公司的共同創辦人。我也目前在訓練一個台灣的模型,叫做FreeSeed。今天很榮幸來跟大家分享,以及對於人工智慧基本法草案提供一些建議。"},{"start":3994.469,"end":4015.593,"text":"那我看過了這個之前的版本然後以及目前的版本那我覺得目前版本真的是非常非常棒然後有提供了非常多的資訊那我這邊有一些這個建議的修正方向已經有先提供給各位那我這邊有五點然後在這邊跟大家說明那首先第一個是這個治理的架構那"},{"start":4018.214,"end":4046.842,"text":"葛立委這邊有提到說建議設立一個國家員工智慧戰略特別委員會那我個人是同意這個觀點那但是在這一份的這個葛立委這邊的個案中呢這邊有提到原本有提到說有把直轄市及縣市政府委員的參與資格放進來那我這邊建議是說應該移除這邊的參與資格而是以中央的統一集權方法來運作"},{"start":4048.062,"end":4063.641,"text":"畢竟說人工智慧是一個非常專門的領域那由大家其實我覺得有些人是負責執行有些人是負責提供建議那我覺得人越多開會效率越慢但今天非常感謝大家都來參與會議"},{"start":4065.523,"end":4091.253,"text":"那我建議的修正條文就是說移除這方面的知轄市及縣市政府首長參與資格但同時間我們可以建立一個多層的治理架構首先是由戰略委員會來協助做政策的制定以及說由部會層級間來非常多部會的長官們來成立專責小組來執行執行的分工協調"},{"start":4092.745,"end":4120.808,"text":"那第三層的話則是政府的應用單位負責做在地的推動那第二件事情是說在兩岸裡面都有提到說風險分級的框架那我建議是可以結合兩岸的優點然後來建立一個更完整的分級規範因為原本的兩岸裡面都只有說我們要風險管理但是其實並沒有說要怎麼樣的方法風險管理"},{"start":4121.548,"end":4146.917,"text":"那我建議可以直接採用歐盟的標準那就是歐盟有這個有禁止使用的風險高風險有限風險以及最近風險四級那我建議說我們可以更進一步可以直接來不管是以美國的方案或是以歐盟的方案我這邊是以歐美方案為準那另外一件事情是我也建議說我們可以在這個基本法之中呢我們直接"},{"start":4148.078,"end":4162.494,"text":"建議增加一個條文是說由行政院指定或者設立一個專責單位然後來做風險評估那我想過往往往會這樣就是我們說法案上面說我們要評估風險然後但是並沒有一個單位可以來負責決定說這個風險怎麼評估"},{"start":4165.878,"end":4190.484,"text":"那往往最後就是這個不做不做 多做多錯嘛所以之後就不做了對 那我建議說我們可以直接實行這邊不管是指定由書發部或者是書發部的什麼單位或者甚至是外部單位然後來做風險評估技術資源及驗證那甚至說可以提供定期的報告那對於這個其他的不管是我們的部會或者縣市政府然後來做"},{"start":4192.324,"end":4213.034,"text":"這個要做支持或要做應用導致都可以有一個依據那第三點是這個兩岸裡面其實都有提到數位平權跟人才培育那但是裡面就講說政府應該做但是其實沒有寫說那錢在哪裡那所以那顯然的說我們就要再開一次會然後決定說哪個單位要付錢這樣"},{"start":4214.415,"end":4236.047,"text":"那所以我這邊建議是說其實政府應該設立一個人工智慧的科技性基金然後針對偏鄉然後弱勢族群然後可以有這個接觸人工智慧的機會那並且必須要有成效指標那第二件事情是就是我其實我個人認為說政府在人才培育其實做越少越好"},{"start":4236.967,"end":4256.414,"text":"今天應該也有其他的單位代表我建議是可以有一個整合產學研的資源來推動系統性的培育計畫甚至說可以建立一個教育資源的共享平台我想今天也有很多教育然後長官學籍的代表可以提供更多的建議"},{"start":4258.932,"end":4274.358,"text":"那第四項是這個預算及資源保障那首先這樣嘛就是我們有一個基本法但是沒錢的話顯然大家不知道該做什麼事情以及哪裡有錢可以做所以呢我覺得隔岸中有一個各級主管機關要編列預算的規定我覺得是非常棒"},{"start":4275.098,"end":4292.177,"text":"那但是這個預算有沒有花在對的地方那我建議可以有一個這個專案管理概念讓我們來確定說我們投入的資源是有效的那當然就是我們有一個這個不管是績效考核或者是說怎麼樣的分配機制來確定說我們資金真的有花在對的地方"},{"start":4293.779,"end":4318.9,"text":"最後一項是剛剛前一位蔡祺妍、蔡理事長其實有提到說我們怎麼樣做資料治理同樣的我建議說我們應該建立國家級的資料治理機制我們在訓練FreeSeed大型人模型的時候我們其實遇到的最大問題就是繁體中文資料不夠"},{"start":4320.391,"end":4349.374,"text":"我們可以把所有我們拿得到繁體中文的資料整理起來大概一個下午這個模型訓練就吃完了所以資料是完全不夠用的那我建議說兩岸的都有資料共享條款但是可以訓練可以整理出一個國家級AI的訓練資料集不管是政府單位要用民間單位要用甚至國外的公司要用我們應該是做盡可能開放讓大家可以把繁體中文做得更好"},{"start":4350.234,"end":4369.419,"text":"那當然一樣的就是我建議政府做得越少越好可以是獎勵然後可以是扶植然後各個的這個公司或是機構的代表然後甚至是各種稅務見面如果你提供資料我們就幫你減稅等等的方法那今天非常謝謝大家謝謝謝良斌創辦人的發言接下來我們請"},{"start":4379.802,"end":4394.942,"text":"麥玉珍委員發言張雅琳委員請準備主席各位先進各位家人們大家早安"},{"start":4397.004,"end":4415.704,"text":"隨著科技快速的發展與進步我們都知道人工智慧不再是科技幻想的電影也不是未來而是現在AI的世代已經來臨了AI是未來數位與經濟的核心力量"},{"start":4416.645,"end":4442.757,"text":"從太空科技、機器人、生成式人工智慧、自駕系統等方方面面逐漸進入人民的生活在各項產業升級與應用之中我們享受著人工智慧帶來生活便利與效率的提升同時也要正視人工智慧能發展必須的監管風險"},{"start":4444.678,"end":4464.61,"text":"並同時達成數位的平權 以人為本的理念面對這股浪潮 各國提出相關的監管規範如美國 德國 英國 歐盟等等私人企業 像是烏果"},{"start":4465.888,"end":4486.562,"text":"微软等也都有提出相关伦理准则甚至制定专访以求在科技发展的同时能够适当以预防或防止人工智慧使用上可能带来的危害与攻击然而"},{"start":4487.342,"end":4488.983,"text":"雖然已有諸多國際法規可以參考我們仍要考慮每一個國家產業類的差異不是僅僅的複製貼上而是要通過這場公聽會與各位學者的意見"},{"start":4508.326,"end":4530.667,"text":"整合我们各个委员提出的不同的草案共同制定出适合台湾人民值得信赖的法规也因此台湾民众党提出了人工智慧发展及管理条例草案除了确立在中央主管机构为数位发展部"},{"start":4532.209,"end":4557.685,"text":"將所風險納入管理對於現行可以預期基本權的侵害防範於未然同時在草案中設計足夠的可問責性制度與相關文書提出的義務填補人工智慧系統科技的發展所帶來的風險與不便性"},{"start":4561.215,"end":4587.307,"text":"除了以上的限制與規範外有鑒於高科技發展今年來一直以來的台灣努力的目標與經濟上不可缺的一部分除了兼具人工智慧發展也提出相關創新鼓勵的措施鼓勵我國人工智慧發展與進步最後"},{"start":4588.953,"end":4607.375,"text":"感謝各領域的菁英在百忙之中還有我們國家禁忌患亂之極願意播出時間來到立法院提出建議希望通過今天的公聽會需要大家"},{"start":4608.587,"end":4627.023,"text":"及时广益除了完善的法规制度也能从人民关心的角度向自个人资料的收集应用的范围以及各项可能受到人工智慧的冲击的产业"},{"start":4628.14,"end":4647.035,"text":"如何精進於應變科技公司可能收到人工的供給的潮流相信從這些角度的討論才能更全面制定出適合我國人民"},{"start":4648.564,"end":4676.555,"text":"的需求更科基還有更有保障的規定讓人工智慧是人類應用的工具不是期待人類的智慧以上謝謝大家也感謝大家謝謝謝謝麥玉珍委員的發言接下來請張雅玲委員發言下一位林志傑特聘教授請準備"},{"start":4680.462,"end":4696.468,"text":"謝謝主席那現場的各位專家學者還有我們的部會代表那這邊跟大家打聲招呼我是民進黨立法委員張雅玲那今天非常高興就是我們來舉辦這樣子的一個AI座談會來收集大家的意見尤其在此時此刻"},{"start":4697.388,"end":4715.502,"text":"是我想大家都知道嘛就是AI畢竟大家都是這個領域的專業那就是在這個現在AI快速發展然後技術已經進入到日常生活的各個層面裡面然後現在尤其是國家也喊出了台灣AI國家隊等等的所以我覺得我們勢必要針對於這個發展的AI產業等一下轉一下剛用跑的好"},{"start":4722.728,"end":4741.448,"text":"所以我想我們還是必須要來回應到就是說目前我們應該這個法規的重點應該是怎麼樣來支持我們的產業可以發展以及確保我們國民的安全那我之前講的安全其實是一個權利的概念喔那如果是這樣子的目標的話我自己是有兩個想法啦那我覺得也可以請教大家的意見喔"},{"start":4742.749,"end":4770.897,"text":"這個基本法裡面應該要有主責單位有個主管機關那因為現在的AI的發展它可能很跨在於這個出發部、經濟部、國科會甚至衛福部、教育部等等其實是非常各個面向其實都會有受到影響可是我們現在是缺乏一個整體的治理架構可是因為AI的風險跟倫理的問題不只只是產業發展而已它更涉及了人權、民主、國安甚至是可能影響了我們的司法的判斷"},{"start":4771.877,"end":4800.156,"text":"因此我認為我們需要一個能夠統籌各部會的並且具有決策跟執行能力的中央主管機關來專責管理AI的規範制定政策推動風險控管以及讓我們可以跟國際接軌那美國拜登總統在2023年簽署了一個AI的行政命令明確的要求要設立一個AI的安全研究中心交由國家標準與技術研究院和國安部門與國家安全部來主導"},{"start":4801.317,"end":4812.658,"text":"統一的來處理AI的測試標準風險評估以及各部門的應用規範那我想在這邊大家可能也可以一起來集思廣益到底我們台灣比較適合放在哪一個部門呢"},{"start":4814.264,"end":4834.379,"text":"那第二個部分呢我也認為就是說我們在AI基本法裡面應該要明確的界定風險分級與責任分類的制度因為我們AI不是每一個用途都應該要有高強度的監管我們應該依據它的實質的一個影響程度來把風險分等級例如就是說可能有最低等級有限風險高風險"},{"start":4836.44,"end":4857.201,"text":"以及不可接受的風險那這部分我們可以參考這個AI的歐盟的AI Act的分級方式但是也要納入美國所強調的用途導向影響導向的原則比方說AI如果只是用來寫文案畫插圖啦或是課堂練習風險當然是相對非常的低但是如果它今天用在於司法判決醫療診斷"},{"start":4859.723,"end":4871.293,"text":"求職審查這些可能就屬於高風險的系統就需要更嚴格的一個審查機制那更重要的是我們應該要明確的界定風險的醫務人到底是開發者使用者"},{"start":4872.589,"end":4889.352,"text":"然後誰負責了系統的安全誰負責資料透明等等不能夠發生問題之後就各部門互踢皮球然後廠商也不用負責等等所以我認為我們在設計AI基本法的時候除了考量到產業跟技術部分也要把人的基本權益一起納入來思考"},{"start":4890.473,"end":4912.523,"text":"那同時我也知道產業也會有點擔心就是說因為AI的變化實在是太快了如果我們把一個相對的法則放進來的時候可能也會限縮了一個AI的發展所以我想這個部分也是大家可能我們未來在制定相關法律的時候也是要一併來考量的那最後呢我要來強調AI基本法並不是要限制創新而是要提供清楚的規則和方向"},{"start":4913.343,"end":4929.284,"text":"讓好的技術能夠安心發展讓人民能夠信任使用那我相信我們現在一起來面對的話我們就更有機會的在兼顧剛剛講的不管是產業或者是我們國際的趨勢或者是我們人權的部分的一個就可以面對這樣子的問題"},{"start":4930.766,"end":4944.696,"text":"所以今天才是再次非常感謝大家一起前來然後我也希望未來我們可以打造出一個更能夠適應各個領域然後也能夠保障我們人權的一個AI基本法謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的發言接下來請林志傑特聘教授發言接下來請許明輝教授準備"},{"start":4964.893,"end":4987.719,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位專家學者各位各部會的長官還有各位幕僚同仁大家早安大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的林志傑同時我也是台灣科技法學會的副理事長以及台灣科技產業推進協會的執行長那非常感謝大家的邀請可以讓我今天來跟大家分享一下包括我們協會的會員"},{"start":4989.079,"end":5012.314,"text":"以及產業界這麼多年來在國立陽明交通大學服務那麼對於目前的AI以及我們所提出的人工智慧基本法草案有一些意見跟回饋那麼剛剛其實包括主席以及各位委員還有專家學者都對於人工智慧基本法目前世界各國的立法模式已經提出了一些基本的說明"},{"start":5012.854,"end":5027.362,"text":"那我想講的是其實大家都不會去反對任何的國家有一個基本的指導原則只是要不要用基本法的方式還是責成各部會立法那各有利弊得失那我想先在這個簡報檔因為這個簡報應該講完就一個多小時了老師們都非常會講課"},{"start":5032.424,"end":5046.054,"text":"所以如果簡報檔還來不及講完的部分那麼各位先進有需要也可以跟我聯絡那我都很願意可以提供參考那我想先提出一個比較重要的概念就是AI它其實是一個資訊最相關的資訊治理議題"},{"start":5049.215,"end":5073.924,"text":"簡單來說在現在世界上各大國家裡面大概有兩大塊資訊掌握的模式第一個就是中國他的資訊掌握模式是由國家來高度掌控所以各位可以看到像中國在很久以前他就開始各式各樣的方法來蒐集人民的個資那麼他在個資的蒐集使用利用上的國家的這個寬度是非常寬的那掌握的深度也是非常深的"},{"start":5074.464,"end":5096.887,"text":"那這個當然有助於中國去發展他的AI因為他的資料實在太多他的人口太多他掌握又太便利這是第一種掌握資訊的模式第二種掌握資訊的模式是美國那麼美國用的就是這個自由市場經濟以及企業的模式比如說當我們使用各種大型科技公司所提供的服務或者是產品"},{"start":5098.271,"end":5118.213,"text":"各位一定都會到最後大家都沒有看但是最後就會點下一個東西叫做什麼我同意對不對或者是accept all cookies或者是我答應接受所有各自的運用大家應該在所有的這個資訊或者是科技商品的使用上都會有這樣子的一個步驟"},{"start":5118.874,"end":5141.903,"text":"那這個步驟代表什麼呢這個步驟代表其實你已經允許這個企業或這個私部門來掌握利用使用你的個資只是我們平常也許並不是這麼清楚的理解到底他用去哪裡所以簡單講其實目前世界各國掌握最多個資的大概就是這兩塊一個是由國家來高度掌握一個是由企業來高度掌握"},{"start":5142.85,"end":5171.029,"text":"那么这样子的两种掌握方式当然都对AI发展会有很大的帮助因为AI靠的就是资讯嘛那怎么办呢如果夹在这个中国的模式跟美国模式中你要怎么办呢因为你比如以欧洲来讲它每一个国家都这么小语言又不一样所以它在资讯的模式上的优势势必不可能跟中国跟美国相提并论于是欧洲就会发展出它自己的AI治理模式某种程度而言也是资料的治理模式"},{"start":5171.909,"end":5189.277,"text":"所以各位可以去看這個過去十幾二十年他從資訊的GDPR到一直到AI的這個基本的這個概念跟架構跟基本法他的大概的track都是非常相近的也就是說在資料的取得上面歐洲他沒辦法跟中國跟美國相提並論那台灣呢"},{"start":5191.478,"end":5214.933,"text":"我覺得這個AI基本法我看完以後其實我有個很大的感覺就是主權我們的主權在哪裡以現在AI的服務裡面即使它提供的是繁體中文你會發現它裡面的語彙它的詞句其實跟我們慣用的方式都是不一樣的絕大部分其實是中國簡體式的一種概念所以我更希望看到一個AI基本法它裡面做的是什麼"},{"start":5215.954,"end":5240.391,"text":"我很希望他能夠不要再有這種充斥著本地文化不同的資訊喪失語言背後蘊含的政治經濟文化深層認同的危險所以我很建議我們的AI基本法一開始應該有一個AI主權的概念也就是說今天我們要發展這個東西是基於我們中華民國台灣的主權那我對於資料質疑有一個更高的國家戰略地位"},{"start":5241.332,"end":5268.165,"text":"那回來看我們目前這個基本法有嗎那很遺憾他感覺好像只是在講一些原理原則的宣示並沒有這個企圖心把AI提高到一個主權戰略地位的概念那這件事是非常重要的因為他不只是攸關我們的科技發展他還攸關於我們的國家安全這是第一點第二個是我要講的是這些都是我剛剛在這個有提到的大家都已經講過的就是歐盟模式跟美國模式"},{"start":5269.144,"end":5296.901,"text":"美國雖然他沒有一個統一的基本法但是他對於一個概念的原則還有呢應用再來呢執行他是有非常清楚規範的我們在立一個法的時候這三個層面是缺一不可的你要先告訴大家原則再告訴大家原則要如何應用最後再來告訴我執行要怎麼落實你不可以只給人家一個方向以後告訴人家說反正最後會有細部規定然後如果你不服就去訴願吧"},{"start":5297.922,"end":5314.571,"text":"我覺得這個是感覺是一個不負責任的立法方式所以各位可以看比如說他的這個倫理框架他講得非常清楚他的演算法是不可以歧視的系統是可以解釋的隱私需要保障人類作為最後的控制者而是自主權決策的保障"},{"start":5315.111,"end":5331.803,"text":"比如說他把AI技術納入國家戰略安全的一個應用方面大家可以看一下那大家可以看一下這個台灣的模式那麼這一次來參加這個會議有被要求要就三個問題來講不好意思我盡快把它講完"},{"start":5332.443,"end":5357.524,"text":"包括第一个如何以人为本第二个数位平权第三个永续发展那在我的简报里面都有我的建议是这样我觉得目前的草案呢他没有公告政府中长期的采购跟扶持方向我觉得这一点对业者是非常重要的第二个人权不能仅是一个原则的宣示你必须要有落地的制度尤其内容如果相冲突的时候该怎么办比如说"},{"start":5358.445,"end":5376.743,"text":"像我們講的我們允許他有這個監理沙盒可是如果監理沙盒他侵犯了個資那這個時候到底他這個conflict你打算怎麼解決你不可能把這個問題丟給私部門或者要求私部門在提出所有的AI的這個產品或服務的時候他必須自證沒有任何的危險"},{"start":5377.304,"end":5396.389,"text":"因為這些自證都是一個非常高的法尊成本讓我一分鐘把它講完那再來就是人才培育跟產業資源應該要有一個正向的循環跟解方那我的建議其實是會比較參考美國的模式來想辦法在各個部門裡面去提高它應用的可能性"},{"start":5396.909,"end":5415.158,"text":"那在這裡我會很建議大家可以去看我個人其實在之前看到金管會大概在兩年前他就提出一個guidance我覺得金管會的模式是非常非常適合的因為你這個基本法到最後還是要責成各個部會去落實相關的AI規範所以最後我要講的就是說"},{"start":5416.348,"end":5439.998,"text":"我覺得人工智慧基本法應該要先定義我到底要做什麼你先釐清楚定位以後你就可以妥善立法你不要過猶不及不能弄出一個非常宣示性的其實是沒有辦法操作的基本草案或者是在這個地方會感覺掛萬漏一那麼以上是我的一個分享最重要的還是我覺得AI主權的宣示跟落實以上 謝謝"},{"start":5441.388,"end":5448.675,"text":"谢谢林志杰特聘教授的发言接下来请许明辉教授发言然后郭玉琴委员准备"},{"start":5456.381,"end":5472.658,"text":"主席 委員以及在座的各位先進我是台北醫學大學的許明輝除了是大學的教授我也是雙核醫院的神經外科醫師當然我也是大學的數據長所以我大概負責我們整個大學跟醫療體系數據的應用"},{"start":5475.721,"end":5495.963,"text":"我另外一個很特殊的身份是我曾經被借調到衛福部當了好幾年的資訊處的處長所以以往都是站在這個講台的左手邊今天很榮幸有機會到右手邊來那我想AI對我們整個國家的重要性是我想大家都應該都可以認同的"},{"start":5497.448,"end":5517.165,"text":"曾經有人講過說這個數據是原油或石油但是石油沒有用那AI才是新的電力所以其實你空有數據其實是沒有什麼用處必須要好好善用這個數據那AI就是最重要這個善用數據的一個元素所以"},{"start":5518.166,"end":5532.719,"text":"其實我是覺得我們這個在整個的規劃上我們在整體AI我想我還是會比較著重在醫療的應用我覺得我們是沒有落後的因為在科技部還沒有改制回國科會的時候這個"},{"start":5535.221,"end":5554.029,"text":"這個科技部的前展師就做了巨量影像資料這個是非常早那巨量影像資料這個投資投資在學界也證實這是對的因為到現在已經有很多影像的AI公司事實上就是從這樣一路從學研的專案走下來的那我想近期這個其實衛福部"},{"start":5556.53,"end":5584.25,"text":"我覺得他們現在做得非常好是他們有所謂的他們用所謂的次世代醫療的計畫去投入了所謂的三大AI中心因為台灣的醫療很重要的一個人才都是在醫學中心所以他們鼓勵台灣的醫院去競爭這個計畫的經費去成立三種AI中心一種叫做可信任的AI其實就跟AI基本法呼應的就是AI"},{"start":5584.73,"end":5606.821,"text":"它有很多基本的元素如果AI是不安全AI是有偏差的這當然是不能用所以他們有一種這個計畫是所謂的可信任AI那AI在醫療應用除了這個基本的AI應用之外有一個非常重要的是如果它進到醫療這是高度管制的所以其實因為我們有譬如說我們有食品藥物管理署"},{"start":5607.341,"end":5636.428,"text":"AI產品有一部分跟藥品是一樣的這個要用在人身上必須要非常謹慎所以他們也鼓勵醫院去成立所謂的取證中心另外因為AI最後會造成社會衝擊所以價值的衝擊對社會對個人他們也有一個在這個所謂的這個整個計畫中有一個叫做衝擊評估那我是覺得這個對整個在醫療應用我覺得這是相當完整而且他們也要求醫院"},{"start":5637.168,"end":5663.726,"text":"必須要制定要有這個決策的委員會那通常因為醫院本來也是國科會跟衛福部投了很多智慧醫療所以醫院現在普遍已經都有智慧醫療委員會他們現在就是要求說你只要是AI產品或AI應用你不可以一個人說了算你必須要經過這些委員會所以我覺得連基層的這個治理架構都已經有了所以我相信這個是"},{"start":5665.788,"end":5685.528,"text":"我覺得我們是可以期待它真的是未來也是護國這個群山之一個重要的山那當然不過我覺得現在比較憂心的是我們從這個長期的計畫培養出了很多譬如說有的人這個茶葉蛋做得很好有的人咖啡做得很好所以他們就去開一個茶葉蛋的攤販"},{"start":5686.969,"end":5703.648,"text":"其實我們現在缺的是我們很多產品都已經走到成熟我們需要一個便利商店的平台所以我覺得因為我們已經看到我們的這些長期投資的AI的這個產品嘗試走到國際去可是我看到的是"},{"start":5704.409,"end":5731.587,"text":"我們單打獨鬥是比較辛苦所以這個真的是也很期待經濟部對於這些已經成熟而且合法的AI的產品必須要有一個集體向海外來做促銷的這個動作那當然我們一開始就也跟大家報告其實數據是這整個整個AI的這個競賽當中最重的元素台灣有一個最寶貴的資源真的就是健保資料庫那"},{"start":5733.228,"end":5748.103,"text":"其實等一下也有邱文聰邱處長他也會發言我跟他互動了十幾年我們在同一個議題上持相反的看法不過我非常珍惜因為我們是一個這樣自由民主的社會所以我們透過對話來取得共識"},{"start":5750.245,"end":5772.047,"text":"那當然我們很期待就是最後健康資料的應用要有一個好的法治基礎不過我會覺得說其實剛才也有委員提到了也有這個先進提到其實有兩個因素很重要一個就是資料健康資料的標準是有國際標準的我們就叫common data modelCDM那其實也非常感謝這個不管是這個"},{"start":5773.468,"end":5800.308,"text":"國客會或衛福部現在也都大力的倡導說我們不要自己做自己的東西我們要去跟全球的這個標準做接軌那回到最後的資料的這個取得其實我跟這個邱處長學習這麼多年其實我同意他我現在已經決定同意他全部的看法不過只有一件事我覺得非常重要因為我們現在大量使用美國的資料"},{"start":5801.329,"end":5819.831,"text":"難道美國是一個不重視民主法治或者是隱私的國家嗎不過美國最重要是他在HIPAA法案中明確的規範前面自主取得同意這個都沒有問題不過HIPAA中最重要的規範是一旦前面程序都完成"},{"start":5821.826,"end":5849.652,"text":"個資去掉之後這個資料集就不再屬人體研究範圍那美國因為有這樣一個大的法的保障我們現在是大量的使用透過申請透過因為我們跟美國是很友好的國家美國他們願意把他們的健康資料提供我們使用那其實健康資料不被涵蓋這個並不是保護到大家健康資料不被涵蓋未來的AI可能會"},{"start":5850.652,"end":5875.208,"text":"比較對那些沒被涵蓋到的人會比較不適用所以我想我們很期待說我們能夠得到更多的認同那從資料這個基礎到AI的基本法我們都能夠未來都能夠有很好的發展謝謝謝謝許明輝教授發言接下來請郭育晴委員發言然後請林佩翔委員準備"},{"start":5881.321,"end":5888.567,"text":"主席 各位委員還有在場的與會先進 大家好今天非常榮幸有這個機會來討論人工智慧基本草案的會議我以下提出幾個重點來跟大家說明我想台灣不應該只是在歐盟的風險或者是在美國的市場導向當中取得折衷的一個做法而是應該要主動來提出屬於自己的台灣模式"},{"start":5910.043,"end":5923.631,"text":"在負責任的這個AI的應用跟產業的一個轉型當中其實要來展現台灣民主的一些韌性那我舉例來講其實我們可以接近這個加拿大他們在這個演算法的影響評估當中的一些制度"},{"start":5924.042,"end":5952.07,"text":"那麼它來透過所謂的保障透明跟信任打造我們自己屬於這個亞洲第一個AI民主的治理一個模式那第二點我想這個數位平權不應該只是一個空泛的一個口號而是要從這個制度的設計的語言開始建立我想在台灣其實不管是在偏鄉或者是高齡族群他們在使用這個網路的使用率其實目前為止其實還是有待這個提升的一個空間"},{"start":5952.85,"end":5969.736,"text":"那尤其是在這個寬頻跟普及跟網速的這個品質當中其實還是存在有些許的一些落差那自己直接會影響到AI應用的一個基礎的設施那我建議是不是可以讓我們的這個科技普及性列為所謂的國家的義務避免這個AI的發展"},{"start":5970.976,"end":5985.669,"text":"它只變成所謂的這個數位精英的一個專利而是應該是要推動到全民共享的一個進步那另外呢其實我才提到一點就是根據這個美國國家兒童失蹤跟受虐兒童的這個援助中心他們的資料指出"},{"start":5986.269,"end":6002.469,"text":"在2023年他們接獲了4700份由AI生成的兒童性剝削的圖像或者是影片那這比前一年呢增加了12%這也凸顯到了這個AI有可能會威脅到所謂的弱勢族群他們的安全"},{"start":6003.09,"end":6019.823,"text":"所以在推動AI的同時其實要怎麼樣建立有效的一個監管的機制避免這些技術性滲透到社會的底層這是我的建議第三點我想AI應該不是只有是科技上的一個問題它更應該要關乎所謂的產業跟人權"},{"start":6022.144,"end":6044.477,"text":"我們常常要說這個要扶植台灣的AI的產業但是要思考就是當我們的產業在面臨這樣的一個挑戰雖然在台灣其實我們有很多的半導體製造業還有我們的醫療影像等等其實我們這些品質都已經是所謂的世界級的一個優勢了但是在AI的發展我們仍是屬於所謂的初期"},{"start":6045.538,"end":6072.394,"text":"所以我們應該是不是先聚焦在本土優勢的領域來推動AI的一個應用並導入AI倫理的一個審查能夠讓這個創新跟社會責任能夠並行發展好 那第四點是關於所謂的資料的治理其實是不容許所謂的這個模糊性的一個空間的存在那我想現行的個資法其實沒有辦法有效的處理非個資的資料的治理跟共享的一個問題"},{"start":6073.394,"end":6099.589,"text":"那這個點呢其實我們建議是不是可以參照歐盟他們在推動資料共享的一個架構那來成立這個資料公益信託或者是數據共管的一個平台讓這個資料呢從這個私人壟斷轉向所謂的公共利益來推動這個AI的發展的重要性那第五點呢就是AI跟勞動權益的不能對立啦應該是要共同的進化才對那我想呢根據這個預測這個AI呢將要"},{"start":6102.272,"end":6103.516,"text":"就可能取代"},{"start":6106.657,"end":6126.554,"text":"8500萬個的工作但是也因為AI的發展也可能會創造9700萬個新的職位我想這重點不是在於我們人力或者會不會被AI取代而是我們是不是可以有所謂的轉型的能量政府應該要提供更多支持的一些措施讓工會跟勞工來參與所謂AI轉型的過程當中的一些決策"},{"start":6131.858,"end":6156.576,"text":"那第六點呢我建議就是AI的主管機關應該是要設在所謂的這個訴法部而非國科會那我想AI其實它不是只有科研上的問題那更是應用在跨部門的整合的一些議題那訴法部呢作為所謂的數位政策的一個統合的單位統整的單位是更應該就是更適合負責這個AI的法規的推動跟執行"},{"start":6157.967,"end":6162.009,"text":"那第七點我想這個AI的發展還是要守住這個民主的一個防線所以要如何強化這個AI的國防的防護網那我想這AI的技術有可能會帶來一些國安上的一些危險風險那特別是來路不明的這些AI的模型"},{"start":6174.637,"end":6176.959,"text":"它有可能會透過所謂的滲透國防電網甚至在我們的醫療的體系當中這些基礎的設施成為我們的國安的一些漏洞所以像舉例像中國深層的深層式的一些AI"},{"start":6189.668,"end":6201.191,"text":"它也可能會用在所謂的認知作戰或者是選舉的干預來威脅我們的民主的制度所以我呼籲其實我們應該要建立所謂的AI國安的審查的機制來加強關鍵設施當中的這個AI的安全審查並且實施這個內容來源的一個標記還有就是政治性模型的一個透明的清單"},{"start":6213.434,"end":6235.269,"text":"來避免使用到來路不明的這個AI的模型那最後一點我想這個立法其實不能只是紙上談兵我們應該要如何來打造AI治理的這個行動的引擎剛剛其實志傑老師也特別有提到其實我們應該要設置這個沙盒試驗場域讓整個創新的應用可以在安全可控的條件下來做發展"},{"start":6236.61,"end":6254.931,"text":"我想AI的立法應該是要根據台灣的社會的需求還有民主的價值來做這樣子的一個設計那我們也希望能夠打造自己所謂的台灣的模式使得AI的技術能夠服務全體的人民讓我們來共享這樣子的一個社會進步的資源以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":6257.774,"end":6260.076,"text":"主席各位專家學者業界的先進們大家早安"},{"start":6283.894,"end":6306.644,"text":"非常高興今天能參與這一場人工智慧基本法草案的公聽會人工智慧的發展速度之快、影響之深已經讓我們的生活、產業甚至整個社會結構都產生了巨大的變化這不只是科技的進步更是一場關乎於倫理、法律跟人權重大的挑戰跟機會"},{"start":6308.324,"end":6324.838,"text":"討論人工智慧基本法正是為了在這波浪潮中找到一條適合台灣的發展路線所以我提出以下五點第一點我認為台灣需要有自己的人工智慧模式"},{"start":6325.879,"end":6343.375,"text":"目前國際上有兩種人工智慧的治理模式歐盟模式跟美國模式歐盟重視風險管理對於高風險的AI應用進行嚴格監管比如醫療公共安全這些領域而美國比較偏向市場導向強調創新跟產業競爭力我認為台灣"},{"start":6348.72,"end":6377.86,"text":"應該結合這兩者的優點發展出屬於自己的台灣模式我們可以學習歐盟的風險分級管理針對高風險的AI應用確保安全性跟透明性同時也要跟美國一樣對於創新留有足夠的空間更重要的是台灣需要加入自己的特色譬如數位平權文化多樣性等讓AI的發展真正符合我們的社會需求"},{"start":6379.281,"end":6404.995,"text":"第二點我提議以人為本讓科技讓AI服務每一個人人工智慧的發展最後面還是要回到人的身上讓科技造福每一個人而不是加劇社會的不平等首先我們要縮小數位落差偏鄉地區的數位基礎設施要能夠跟上讓每個人都有機會接觸到AI技術帶來的便利"},{"start":6405.655,"end":6431.185,"text":"再來我們要推動全民的數位教育尤其是針對弱勢族群幫他們提升技能避免在AI時代被邊緣化另外人工智慧也應該為永續發展服務像是能源管理氣候變遷應對這些領域AI可以發揮很大的作用但同時之間我們也要注意技術對環境的影響確保它是可敘的"},{"start":6432.642,"end":6455.587,"text":"第三點我們應該要培養人才讓台灣在國際上站穩腳步人工智慧的核心競爭力到底說還是人才我們必須投入更多資源到AI的科技研究跟教育上面培養出更多國際級的專業人才我認為政府應該增加對AI研究的支持尤其是在基礎研究跟前沿技術這些領域"},{"start":6456.747,"end":6479.344,"text":"同時我們也要推動產學合作讓學界跟企業一起參與AI技術的研發和應用在教育上面中小學我們就應該開始把AI的相關課程融入在孩子教育裡讓他們從小就接觸到這些技術而對於大學生跟在職人士我們也應該"},{"start":6482.062,"end":6496.341,"text":"其實還有另外一點我們的AI博士好像只有100個AI博士只有35個留在台灣這是很大的危機這點如果不改善的話其實我們再怎麼樣有再好的AI教育都沒有用我們要提供更多的新修建修經會幫助他們在AI時代"},{"start":6497.082,"end":6518.353,"text":"掌握所需要的新技術第四點我們也剛有同仁提到資料共享資料是人工智慧的基石沒有高質量的資料AI技術就無法發揮它的潛力我們應該建立一個資料開放與共享的機制讓政府和民間資料能夠更備好的利用"},{"start":6520.914,"end":6542.691,"text":"当然资料的安全跟隐私也是非常重要的我们需要有明确的规范来保护各自并且制定合理的价值分配机制来确保资料贡献者能够得到应有的回报第五点保障劳动者的权益来迎接AI时代的挑战"},{"start":6543.871,"end":6562.367,"text":"人工智慧的發展不可避免的會對勞動市場帶來衝擊有些工作可能會被取代而有些工作可能會需要新的技能我們要做的就是幫勞工來適應這些變化確保勞工的權益不會因為技術的進步而受損害"},{"start":6563.448,"end":6580.047,"text":"另一方面我們也要提供更多的技能培訓跟職能教育機會幫勞工提升競爭力我們也要製定相關的保障機制確保AI在應用勞動市場時不會侵犯到勞工的基本權利"},{"start":6580.948,"end":6595.022,"text":"最近有關Mid Journey也好當AI剛出來的時候有關Mid Journey還是有關世衛財產權甚至最近最紅的吉卜利的狀況吉卜利的這個化石的風格我覺得這未來可能會一直不停的在發在重生在我們的AI產業裡面"},{"start":6597.384,"end":6617.677,"text":"而這一點是需要我們去直接去注意的如何能夠保持原創性但是如何又能夠融合所有的元素在裡面這是未來AI可以幫助我們但是同時之間AI如何也要保障當初原創者的精神這是我們未來在AI基本法也好還是在人工智慧裡面也好我們需要去注意到的最後"},{"start":6620.017,"end":6633.87,"text":"人工智慧是一個充滿潛力的領域但它同時也帶來許多挑戰我期待今天的公聽會我們能夠凝聚更多的智慧與共識為了台灣的人工智慧來發展出創新的局面謝謝"},{"start":6660.6,"end":6670.489,"text":"主席在座的委員然後政府的先進然後各界的夥伴大家早安我是軍醫平台教育基金會的負責人 呂冠偉"},{"start":6671.38,"end":6698.017,"text":"那今天我想剛剛跟大家學習非常多就是什麼是台灣模式那台灣模式當然我們參考了美國歐盟還有各個國家當中可能我們需要思考的事情是我們的優勢到底在哪所以今天我個人的觀察是我們需要更著重應用"},{"start":6699.298,"end":6716.763,"text":"人才還有整合因為台灣很難實務上是模型大國所以資料相關的東西討論非常重要剛剛各位先進也都有很多的對話我相信大家也有那我今天比較想要側重另外一個面向就是人才"},{"start":6718.328,"end":6738.13,"text":"2023年9月軍事平台教育基金會與相關倡議夥伴舉辦教育AI年會當時蔡前總統跟三位總統候選人包含賴總統都一起出席賴總統在裡面也特別提到教育、醫療、法律等更在地化的部分我們怎麼樣深化"},{"start":6738.931,"end":6751.585,"text":"那今年1月的時候也另外相關的倡議單位舉辦了AI人才高峰會那蕭副總統跟相關的夥伴那其實也包含各位員也都到現場做深度的討論那AI"},{"start":6754.088,"end":6778.1,"text":"基本法關鍵不僅是法是它後面到底對於台灣的人才跟國家戰略定位是什麼需要細緻討論那這裡幾個東西我覺得是需要在討論的過程當中深化的因為當我們討論法的時候很容易就直接進到法的裡面當然我們可以討論不同版本的法案的對照但是到底為什麼要立這個法"},{"start":6778.92,"end":6791.393,"text":"那為什麼不是其他的作用法先去處理就好了那當然它一定是一個國家級的戰略工具那後面的那個圖像想像是什麼第二個是我剛剛想要提到的東西就是"},{"start":6793.05,"end":6815.226,"text":"如果我們不是模型大國那我們在各個產業裡面到底像剛剛有談到醫療的可能有不同的比如說金融的到底在這裡面AI的應用我們怎麼各個產業都打造出那個的AI we all need這樣子教育AI 金融AI 醫療AI等等各方面的應用可能更重要再來應用"},{"start":6816.867,"end":6846.087,"text":"脫離不了人所以關鍵是怎麼樣培育不僅是AI人才那樣會貪純只談專才其實AI尤其深層式AI給我們最大的機會是它可以是普惠性的它是任一個國家善用可以整體性提升等一下我會稍微再提一下所以雖然要做國際對照但是到底台灣的niche在哪裡這件事情我認為是在立法的推動過程當中尤其是基本法需要思考更深的"},{"start":6846.787,"end":6871.299,"text":"那因此公聽會我相信這是一個很棒的開始可是可能我們需要更深入的討論我知道之前各部會也有跟各專家去做討論但是這一次的討論應該非常非常的不一樣因為它可能可以顛覆非常多的領域有升旗的契機那當然這個社會共識的凝聚我認為一個很重要的事情就是我們能否"},{"start":6872.159,"end":6894.768,"text":"既然是AI基本法的討論那我們能否也善用AI來去整合梳理大家的共識並且呈現給社會大眾看那最後是到底真正的產業需求是什麼因為在這些立法的過程當中我們可能著重法條那但是到底哪些產業怎麼樣去梳理出後面的共同卡住的需求"},{"start":6895.668,"end":6909.596,"text":"這個是比較少在討論當中聽到的那我以教育為例為什麼我們會主張在AI應用要優先而且深度討論教育人才大家可以看到這個圖面上"},{"start":6910.436,"end":6929.667,"text":"在40年前教育哲學家Benjamin Bloom就用實驗的方式清楚的看到統一的班級講述跟一對一的教學當中他可以讓整個人才學習的差異程度到兩個標準差40年前他是一個Problem叫做Two Sigma Problem"},{"start":6930.347,"end":6949.205,"text":"但是現在生成式AI來它是機會而且更關鍵的事情是什麼呢這其實不是只是在純教育界談中小學生其實所有的產業如果我們要做人才整體的升級關鍵就在能不能用生成式AI大量的幫助每一個人有進展因為"},{"start":6950.612,"end":6965.788,"text":"大家知道一件事情就是哈佛商業評論特別寫到其實AI不會取代人但是善用AI的人會取代不用AI的人那善用AI的國家就會取代不用AI的國家"},{"start":6967.495,"end":6983.789,"text":"那再來一件事情就是既然如果是基本法的討論到底他跟教育基本法還有科技基本法中間的勾肌連動是什麼那教育基本法在當初因為今天有就是教科文委員會蠻關鍵的核心是在第一條就訂定這是確保"},{"start":6984.669,"end":7004.698,"text":"學習的權利它是把學習權放在受教權前面所以當初這個教育基本法進步的地方那我想我們需要去思考的事情是到底在AI基本法它最主要要促進的是什麼是資料的整合以嗎還是它是一個台灣人才整體升級最重要的一個基本知識法律"},{"start":7005.638,"end":7022.283,"text":"那在AI基本法的這個鬆綁怎麼樣創新跟促進公共利益我想就簡單提幾個點那剛好今天原本有另外受邀的一位陳映農教授像我們陳長包含我剛跟等一下的這個侯義修秘書長也都有很多的意見交換那"},{"start":7023.983,"end":7051.926,"text":"這些東西我想大家會在談資料的共享開放智慧財產這個剛剛大家都提那我想特別提第三點就是在AI應用跟人才培育不僅要公司協力而且要讓民間的創新為主去推動那政府可以協助去撇除限制那因為這個議題真的很複雜所以怎麼樣它有高度的整合性但又有分向深化的治理機制我想這個是需要大家在立法的過程當中思考的"},{"start":7052.526,"end":7079.74,"text":"所以雖然不是直接就法條進行討論但是我想這個開始的後面更重要的事情是這個討論過程怎麼更深化可以更跨域的需求的彙整行行有AI人人學AI台灣會AI那這個台灣模式甚至是在立法討論的過程當中可以更AI一些更有AI的彙整AI的內容產出甚至是公民一起的討論謝謝"},{"start":7084.035,"end":7096.467,"text":"謝謝呂冠偉董事長的發言那我們教育部次長葉秉成次長也已經到場謝謝好那我們接下來請侯怡秀秘書長發言廖偉祥委員準備"},{"start":7115.966,"end":7143.419,"text":"大家好我是台灣人工智慧學校秘書長侯怡秀那謝謝今天給我這個機會來跟大家分享我們對這個人工智慧法治的一些看法人工智慧學校是由台灣六家民間企業在2017年捐款一億八千萬元成立的一個學校那過去七年來我們訓練了超過一萬一千名的這個學員校友那這些學員校友來自一千四百多家將近一千五百家的台灣公司"},{"start":7144.179,"end":7172.22,"text":"那我跟大家分享我們的校友來源最重要的來源是資訊科技業那另外第二個讓大家可能會比較驚訝的是我們在生技醫療產業有非常多的校友那為什麼要讓大家看這張圖呢這張圖重要的地方在於它表示了台灣的人工智慧在各產業滲透和深入的程度那大家可以理解是資訊科技業其實或是說半導體業其實是目前台灣運用AI最多的地方"},{"start":7172.9,"end":7195.673,"text":"但是醫療產業也有非常多的運用醫療產業實際上我們有超過一千多名的校友是醫生他們是實際上現在每天都還在看診的醫生討論到人工智慧這個法案我們首先要提出來的是剛剛已經有很多位專家講到說這個技術是會改變我們整個生活然後社會文化環境"},{"start":7196.573,"end":7223.191,"text":"它是會滲透到百工百業所以我們面臨的其實是一個第四次工業革命的狀態那工業革命其實以長期來看它會帶來很大的好處但是短期之間呢就是會有很多的摩擦和有人受到傷害和衝擊那在這樣的狀況下我們的目標應該是如何協助台灣所有的人能夠順利的度過這一個轉型的狀態那因此今天能夠請到非常多各個部會的"},{"start":7227.293,"end":7243.401,"text":"專家來一起討論這件事我覺得這是一個非常好的一個安排和結構因為這確實不是只有數位部或是國科會的事情而是在教育衛福然後金融財政各方面都會受到相當大的影響"},{"start":7244.381,"end":7261.799,"text":"那我現在想先強調的是人工智慧或說英文的Artificial Intelligence這個詞它其實是一把傘意思是什麼呢從1956年Artificial Intelligence這個詞會在美國的Dustmouse這個workshop提出以來呢它的技術內涵其實是一直改變的"},{"start":7262.119,"end":7283.232,"text":"那實際上這個技術內還會持續改變中所以我們在做人工智慧基本法的定義的時候其實我們必須要留有一定的空間去注意這個技術變化的改變我們可以說現在人工智慧基本上是每個星期在做新版本的推出那有可能在一兩年之內就有相異於現在大型與模型的技術成為主流"},{"start":7283.692,"end":7311.997,"text":"那實際上我們現在運用最多的未必是生成式AI而是所謂傳統式和判別式的AI那這是第一件事那第二件事是人工智慧其實是一把刀它會帶來好處也會帶來壞處端看使用者怎麼用所以對於人才的培育培養使用者怎麼正確的去使用這把刀是重中之重我可以很確定的說在所有主權AI要素裡面投入人才培育是萬無一失的事情"},{"start":7312.617,"end":7333.072,"text":"以算力來說 人工智慧學校在2018年買了4600萬的GPU這些GPU到了2020年的時候已經沒有用了沒有學員要用 因為他們全部都嫌太慢但是對於他們在過去幾年中學到的這些知識一直到現在都是讓他們可以持續在全世界保持領先的重點"},{"start":7334.233,"end":7361.438,"text":"那人工智慧會帶來很多的問題我這邊就不追述但是我們要注意的是其實不是只有人工智慧基本法去規範人工智慧我們有很多現行的法律其實也是在規範這些可能產生的問題我們並不是好像人工智慧就把我們帶到一個異心是一個沒有法律規範的狀態其實並不是這樣的那我接下來要講的是我覺得談過剛剛有幾位專家提到"},{"start":7362.618,"end":7388.277,"text":"台灣其實在現代現實條件底下我覺得我們不可能成為人工智慧科技研發的最尖端的國家就是要比大語言模型的研發我們是不可能的但是我覺得台灣是有機會成為最會用AI的國家百工百業都應該學會然後我們可以在各個產業領域裡面把它用到最好因為台灣人有很強烈的工程師的性格然後我們能夠把這個工藝做到最成熟"},{"start":7388.897,"end":7408.843,"text":"但另外一個重點是我們可以用民主的方式去使用AI民主的方式包括什麼呢包括知識的普及包括開發過程的普及包括治理程序的普及我們講到台灣的模式的AI治理或是基本法是什麼我覺得一個重中之重就是我們必須要是從bottom up有很多公民參與還有審議"},{"start":7410.723,"end":7414.747,"text":"各行各業的利害關係人可以透過他們實際應用的經驗和他們的見解來一起討論行訴百公百業應該怎麼用AI的規範內涵"},{"start":7427.779,"end":7447.732,"text":"那AI時代的關鍵能力其實並不是說單純AI而已其實你能讓他怎麼樣用到最好取決於你原來的領域產業的基礎知識有多少基本上你如果本來領域產業知識是越好的人AI能夠幫助你的能力就會越大"},{"start":7448.192,"end":7473.285,"text":"那另外一個重點就是我們在過去七年中學到的是學習AI不是學習歷史而是學游泳你必須要有水你要下去游你才學得會所以不論是哪一個組織如果要提供AI的教育或是說AI的培訓一定要有工具在手一定要提供你的學員有學習的這個機會那我覺得這個也是在基本法裡面我們要明確宣示出來的"},{"start":7475.366,"end":7487.132,"text":"最後我們來提到如何從AI新手變成精英我想特別講的是AI素養我覺得是我們未來每一個人從小到我們的學員的平均年齡其實是40歲我們最大的學員年紀來上課的時候已經70歲了所以這個是不論什麼年紀我們都應該要去培養這樣的素養"},{"start":7496.837,"end":7512.002,"text":"它包括了理解技術邏輯 運用技術能力評估 反思AI的能力特別是反思和評估這件事情我覺得是我們目前比較少重視到的但是是如何讓我們不受AI傷害非常重要的一環"},{"start":7513.122,"end":7533.205,"text":"最後我想提到的是人工智慧的治理我們希望是透過一個草根的多方利害關係人在特定的應用場景去做分析管理的討論而且因為技術發展的緣故我們需要有一個敏捷治理的制度去能夠隨時調整流動性的去做治理和管理我今天的分享就到這邊謝謝大家"},{"start":7542.93,"end":7543.634,"text":"劉淑冰委員準備"},{"start":7549.264,"end":7574.926,"text":"感謝我們今天的主席葛如君委員那我覺得今天來到這裡很興奮也很感動對 因為我覺得今天是這個AI基本法可能立法的一小步我覺得卻是我們台灣AI發展的一大步那我也蠻認同剛剛我們祕書長所說的成為最會用AI的國家那其實隨著AI生成的內容其實我覺得"},{"start":7576.067,"end":7595.35,"text":"第一個面對AI,我想不管是不是所有的人類可能面對AI都算是一個幼稚園的部分還是一個幼稚園的小朋友還在面對說到底應該怎麼去應用規範等等的那我想要從今天的基本法裡面找一小段出來表達我的其中的一個建議"},{"start":7596.371,"end":7621.974,"text":"第一個 我覺得隨著AI的這個生成內容其實像包含所謂的這個DeepFake身為影像啦AI聊天機器人等等 其實日益逼真那就會導致一件事情人類跟機器生成行為之間的界線是越來越模糊尤其是新一代的這個AI機器人可能以前所謂有的真實感可以模仿人類的語言 外貌跟互動"},{"start":7623.135,"end":7638.186,"text":"所以我覺得這不僅是影響日常的數位互動也可能威脅我們民主的進程公眾的信任或者是國家安全或社會凝聚力其實可以看到現在有很多所謂的AI生成的內容不斷地在散播或者在網路上面到處亂發酵這樣"},{"start":7641.553,"end":7667.75,"text":"那有些時候我們自己也可以看到很多所謂的不管是這個社群媒體你也可以看到那個帳號進去他到底是不是真的人呢那現在可能還相對很好分類一進去看到沒什麼朋友然後也沒什麼這個貼文他亂發一堆訊息你大概可以分得出來可是其實隨著這個技術AI的發展他可能越來越沒有辦法分辨越來越扭曲所以我認為如果沒有"},{"start":7668.61,"end":7691.344,"text":"一個可靠的機制可以驗證這個數位空間中的人類身份我覺得在我們的民主社會或是台灣可能面臨在AI的驅動下有廣泛的操控、詐騙或是冒名頂替跟公共論述的扭曲所以我自己是在這個AI基本法裡面我覺得大家都講到捷運塔面向很廣"},{"start":7692.845,"end":7712.375,"text":"那我想要從中間挑一個東西我覺得政府應該可以去推動的就是我覺得應該要設立明確的人類驗證的機制我覺得應該要推動設立人類的驗證機制那這種技術又必須要安全然後它可以尊重隱私那可以有包容性而且易於民眾的使用"},{"start":7712.995,"end":7718.117,"text":"所以我覺得概念上就是要人機區分那透過人類驗證我們可以區分這個人類跟人工智慧系統那也確保我們數位空間的可信度那防範我們的錯假資訊跟維護我們的民主跟社會穩定"},{"start":7729.381,"end":7758.296,"text":"那在國際上比如說歐盟的AI法案美國相關政策也都已經開始討論所謂的Proof of Human就是人類驗證的技術那就在強調在數位互動公共討論政府服務數位投票或是內容驗證的場域應該有區分人類使用者跟AI系統的一個關鍵的一個方向所以才可以維護我們民主跟社會信任那我覺得所以"},{"start":7759.016,"end":7783.441,"text":"具體來說,國家應該推動能夠區分人類使用者跟人工智慧系統的技術發展應用,確保這個技術數位互動的可信度。這些技術應該兼具安全性、隱私保護性、包容性跟易於存取,以保護人類的尊嚴,防止操控並維持數位公共生活的完整性。"},{"start":7784.361,"end":7794.878,"text":"所以我未來也會提出這個我的立法版本會把這個部分納入那我就是希望說這個東西我認為應該是一個比較有別於目前大家討論的一個區塊"},{"start":7797.13,"end":7804.332,"text":"那我覺得剛剛也有講到這個身邊的例子喔譬如說包含我自己我們在從事民意代表的過程中我們也希望我們的服務可以更AI化就是說或許我們的各個應用可以讓我們選民24小時都可以接觸到所以我其實曾經也就想過那是不是用選民服務系統跟這個所謂AI做一個結合可是就像我剛剛說的它就會面臨到很模糊的問題那所以這就是我我覺得一個實際生活中可以去思考的"},{"start":7827.02,"end":7850.547,"text":"那這也會跟我們所謂最會用AI的這個方向我覺得也是一個可以相互呼應那我覺得除了人類驗證的原則之外那當然包含著在AI治理上還有四大的推動重點第一個第一個我覺得是創新合作跟人才培育那政府應該要積極這個投資AI的基礎建設那提供研發補助推動人才培育"},{"start":7851.227,"end":7879.326,"text":"跟這個素養的教育然後建立創新實驗的環境促進我們公司協力跟國際合作那所以比如說多元的治理架構跨部會的協作也很重要那例如像歐盟可能有設立歐洲的這個AI辦公室國家監管機構那南韓加拿大可能也都有國家的AI委員會AI政策中心或是AI安全研究院統籌政策跟技術指導這些合規監督這是第一點那第二個"},{"start":7880.106,"end":7895.483,"text":"重點就是風險管理跟應用負責那就是建立風險分級機制不過因為我想剛剛也有很多先進前輩也有提到相關的所以我這個部分我就點到這裡那當然第三點就是權益保障跟資料的利用"},{"start":7896.764,"end":7901.987,"text":"剛剛前面我有提到所謂強化各自隱私的保障推動資料的開放共享特別鼓勵我們繁體中文語料的訓練維護我們文化的主權避免AI模型過度依賴所謂境外的資料"},{"start":7914.992,"end":7919.234,"text":"那第四個就是法規的調適跟業務檢視因為像在這個加拿大的部分它其實也有強調法規的彈性因為正如我剛剛所說我們現在面對AI大家可能都還是幼稚園的一個狀態所以其實我覺得保持彈性是很重要的"},{"start":7932.941,"end":7954.788,"text":"那根據AI技術發展持續調整這個安全的義務那像日本的AI法案可能以原則性的規範為主那它目的也是保持這個政策的調整空間那政府當然應該要持續的檢討主管法規和確保法治跟技術發展同步那建立AI應用負責機制防止這個違法濫用剛剛有提到這個AI這個工具非常強大"},{"start":7958.789,"end":7978.022,"text":"它可以是很好的工具也可以是很好的武器在破壞我們的人類社會那尤其具體的案例譬如說台灣也曾經發生網紅將知名人士合成不雅的影片的案子更活生生的違法使用那當然包含詐騙也是大量的所以這部分非常重要那我最後結語一下"},{"start":7978.883,"end":8002.932,"text":"我覺得人工智慧基本法也是台灣邁向AI治理與創新發展的重要里程碑所以我剛剛提的部分是我想針對原則上希望可以納入人類驗證的原則可以使我們台灣在AI的時代更能夠維護我們的民主信任跟社會安全而且確保人類的獨立性跟人類的尊嚴"},{"start":8003.832,"end":8029.96,"text":"那除此之外前面也有提到其他的國家所以仍有許多部分我們可以持續滾動調整那制度上也應該我們國家應該可以更加的參考所以也必須承認台灣在AI研究發展措施跟治理的制度的這個建制的領域都還有不足那人工智慧基本法其中的基本兩個字我覺得也能呼應我們的確還走在這個地基建設的階段"},{"start":8033.641,"end":8062.177,"text":"那程序上我是覺得我們當然是先求有再求好但是我們心態上也要知道這個階段如果沒有把這個基礎打好會對未來的發展跟治理會有巨大的影響所以今天的公聽會很感謝這個召委的安排那我們也期待立法院能夠廣納各界的意見制定兼顧發展風險權益跟國際接軌的現代化法制讓台灣的AI時代可以穩健前行好 謝謝大家"},{"start":8064.562,"end":8070.654,"text":"谢谢廖伟祥委员的发言接下来请刘书斌委员发言林毅荣经理准备"},{"start":8078.325,"end":8099.897,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們今天討論到人工智慧基本法或者是說人工智慧相關法定的這個制定的時候首先要確定的是他在的這個主管機關這部分我們看到行政院他已經提出來的是由國發會然後後來在到今年的時候就轉到所謂的書發附這邊"},{"start":8102.438,"end":8103.82,"text":"那這邊最重要的是剛才其他的很多的學者專家們也提到的是說這個是一個跨部會的這樣子的一個影響性的一個新的發展絕對不限於在前面這兩個部會"},{"start":8117.555,"end":8131.937,"text":"那因此呢我們在本身我們本黨也有提出來的一個人工智慧與發展的這個管理條例特別還重要的是管理這部分那我們的一個地方除了原來我們從數位發展部這邊部會之外我們特別想到說如果國發會因為現在的不是國發會國科會的這個主委他目前是身兼在所謂的科技發展這部分的跨領域的一個政委在那邊可能也是一個蠻好的一個選項可以做參考"},{"start":8147.1,"end":8153.002,"text":"另外我們在看到的是在人工智慧的發展的這部分它其實有幾個發展方向是必須要去兼顧到它的一個問責性還有這個解決性還有實用性甚至包括隱私人權等等的公平的永續的發展這樣的一個尊重但是"},{"start":8166.607,"end":8170.628,"text":"我覺得更重要的是在發展方向當中可能需要注意到兩個第一個就是發展在研發部分就是必須要再給它一個開放性尤其是它的資料來源是屬於在open source的這種情況這樣的情況之下跟行政院所提到的這一種"},{"start":8184.552,"end":8189.676,"text":"除了說抒發部這邊特想要說像是不是有AI的主權的情況呢是不是有這個干擱的情況事實上要去了解那另外一個部分就在所謂的本黨的一個法制上面的一個重要性是在所謂的管理那管理這邊呢就是你要有工具"},{"start":8203.045,"end":8208.767,"text":"那工具的部分特別是說針對可能發生的情形那在可能發生的情形當中從科研的發展研發然後到產品甚至是到後面的狀況是服務剛才有學者也特別提到說在服務的這一部分的時候呢更是我們要變成說是使用者那服務的這部分呢就必須要根據這個相關的所謂利害關係的人包括後來的使用者當然都是必須要消費者等等都必須要去做一些苛責"},{"start":8230.712,"end":8237.096,"text":"這邊的工具性當中可能最重要的是在於要提供的是分類所謂的風險的分類那風險的分類當中我們本黨的這個條案當中特別有強調是說有一些是所謂的不可以"},{"start":8245.981,"end":8251.682,"text":"不可以去所謂的不可以接受的這樣的風險還包括是高風險特定風險跟低風險這樣的狀況那不可接受的風險的話特別是如果採取這樣歐盟的這個法規呢是針對說如果是在複雜的這個戰爭的場域這種情況的話是包括它才用發展那種所謂的自動的這個殺人這個武器這是絕對不行的所以它也還有倫理性"},{"start":8270.086,"end":8272.427,"text":"那我們本黨特別會針對是在有關於在高風險這部分的他設置了這個相關的情況那剛才我跟你講說根據所謂利害關係人當中也是在服務的使用跟使用前的苛與苛責那有這樣的苛責的情況之下呢到時候"},{"start":8286.431,"end":8293.756,"text":"是不是要有罰則或什麼等等的這個是另外再說但是我覺得如果你要做到管理的情況那就是不少把這些高風險的等級列出來之後呢等等的設於相關的負責單位當中給予適當的適當的這樣的一個讓他苛責的情況那如果有這樣的情況之下至少要管理一個方向上面是一個方向是一個方向有利於去導引那另外一個部分我們也知道說資料的來源資料的來源最終是收集到個人的各種的不同的資料"},{"start":8316.591,"end":8329.765,"text":"那這邊部分呢 可是必須要做個去識別化尤其是大數 AI 或者說大數據資料的應用這邊呢很重要的是它就是把整體的資料拉出來但是它變成說要避免到所謂的這樣個人的 然後變成說"},{"start":8331.967,"end":8354.274,"text":"變成說到時候去辨別出來的時候形成對他個人隱私的這種傷害因此在個人資料蒐集之後的這個整體的去識別化的這個部分特別要去重視然後還有當然可能要實驗性的這樣這個沙盒的實驗場域的也是說必要那另外更重要的是說要避免風險的情況還有就是必須要接受生味技術"},{"start":8355.274,"end":8366.956,"text":"身為技術跟辨識系統的這個揭露義務這邊的揭露義務就會特別針對產品的製造或是在服務在使用的時候就必須把它列清楚那這邊就可以避免到說有些"},{"start":8368.188,"end":8374.671,"text":"有些其他的什麼敵對的或者說有人利用這個去詐騙等等的這個部分就會形成了這種但罪的一個漏洞所以這邊特別要去注意到那最後的這個地方我們針對的是說剛才有提到說如果你的苛責的對象這個程序上面都清楚了苛責對象也清楚了特別是在針對後面的就是這個使用產品的這個產品的這個製造跟後面的服務的使用者"},{"start":8398.562,"end":8414.276,"text":"服務的這個服務的提供者這邊部分提供出來的時候那苛責就讓大家清楚了那就沒有問題那當然還必須包括的是最後的這個還有我剛才其實還重要的是在金融的部分剛才創新好像創新比較強我們門黨裡面特別有強調說除了預算的這個剝入之外那還有包括是基金這樣的一個像國發會的這個基金就可以放進去那特別我有想到是說"},{"start":8424.224,"end":8443.754,"text":"這邊請不要再去說到硬體的部分而特別繼續在軟體的人才的培育上面還有一個原則我就剛剛補充我前面可能沒有講清楚的部分就是在於說這個部分AI的使用是要讓它普及包括在醫療農業等等的都是很重要的這麼重要的部分的時候就必須要讓所有的資料的它的可"},{"start":8444.594,"end":8469.494,"text":"公平的去使用或是公平的甚至是方便的去接觸的assess的情況是必須要注意到的所以它的平等使用不分的年齡老幼等等的包括在教育上面讓人們都有適當的素養就是非常的重要那最重要的我就要做一個結語就在於說AI的發展是我們在台灣利用在我們在晶片的還包括在"},{"start":8470.134,"end":8494.934,"text":"在資訊產業當中的這個特性的時候呢是發展的一個好好的契機所以我們在可能在大型的這個語言或大型的這種使用模組的那個模型當中可能不是占有限區但是我們自己在我們的繁體中文上面的包括華人那個使用圈上卻是一個非常大的一個發展當然也注意到我們本土上面的一個特殊性的把它成為一個最重要的這個資訊載源包括我們上次看到在國科會的"},{"start":8497.857,"end":8513.248,"text":"金屬科學研究有TIDE這個資訊TIDE這個APP的使用我就覺得是非常好的那繼續把針對這些的特點繼續發揚光大的話那就是未來台灣的未來的這個發展的一個重要的一個契機好 謝謝謝謝劉書斌委員的發言接下來請林義榮經理發言邱文聰處長準備"},{"start":8536.234,"end":8551.267,"text":"謝謝謝謝收到到今天的這個公聽會那我想今天就是會想要從可能房價還有虛位信任的這個觀點來跟大家分享說目前產業界怎麼樣來看待這個人工智慧法的這個立法"},{"start":8551.767,"end":8559.551,"text":"那也謝謝大家就是購入其實在2022年就成立了所以我們其實早在10年前就非常關注房價的議題那目前的這個佈局其實也涵蓋到全球那我們在做這個房價還有數位信任的這個建設上面其實我們也發覺到一個很關鍵的因素就是必須是公司協力的一個狀態才有可能來克服現在社會中這麼大的一個"},{"start":8578.02,"end":8602.268,"text":"困難那我想未來我們要發展人工智慧的研發以及應用其實也需要依循同樣的邏輯跟概念那在這邊其實也想要跟大家分享其實早在2000年的時候我想大家都可以認知到很傳統的這些電話或者是傳銷的詐騙那時候其實都是困在區域性可能我們很知道說我們可能我們都會"},{"start":8603.108,"end":8607.672,"text":"可能台灣就是所謂的詐騙輸出國可是那個是在2000年的時候我們可以這樣子講但是我們陸續的往前到2010年可能是數位詐騙釣魚網站相關的這些郵件的詐騙到了2020年我想我們所面臨的挑戰是更加的嚴峻的"},{"start":8622.102,"end":8628.666,"text":"因為不是只有我們這個產業會使用AI我們也發現說現在的這些詐騙集團因為他已經有非常精細的產業分工他們在AI的運用上面其實速度是超乎我們的想像的那我們現在其實也觀察到非常多的詐騙其實都已經是透過AI在進行生成"},{"start":8643.737,"end":8656.912,"text":"那在這邊當然我們公司也是為著這個AI的這個防炸也建築了一個完整的生態系那我們也發現說深受其害的不僅是只有消費端甚至現在企業端也遭遇同樣的挑戰那我們在這邊也發現說"},{"start":8660.276,"end":8681.85,"text":"如果我們要做好AI防詐這件事情其實前期的偵測是關鍵點我們不再只是被動的去防禦說今天詐騙帶來的影響甚至我們必須更提前的去知道說哪一些可能是未來詐騙會出現的場景或者是現在詐騙到底是以什麼樣的形式在市面上流通"},{"start":8683.379,"end":8698.953,"text":"那在這邊的話也很感謝就是現在無論是我們的立委們還有我們的政府單位們都非常重視人工智慧法的這個立法那我們也觀察到現在的普遍的提案裡面有幾項積極的措施是作為一個產業端這邊的代表"},{"start":8701.275,"end":8706.736,"text":"是非常肯定的包含說要有明確的主管機關因為在過往可能我們在發展人工智慧在訓練這些資料的時候可能會遇到各自的挑戰那我們過去可能在各自這一塊就是因為沒有明確的主管機關所以我們在應用上其實也需要"},{"start":8720.7,"end":8734.438,"text":"去克服很多的法尊上的限制那現在無論是可能是國科會或者是速發部或者是說可能各位委員有另外提到說要另外成立所謂的國家人工智慧戰略特別委員會我想對於"},{"start":8737.121,"end":8756.09,"text":"產業來說只要有一個明確的主管機關能夠出來對我們來說就知道說未來在產業的發展上可以找到誰等於是有一個明確的一個組織機關那對於一個產業的這個發展來說它就有一個正向的引導的功能那再來是給予財稅跟金融的優惠措施"},{"start":8757.731,"end":8760.375,"text":"以及公司協力推動人工智慧創新應用我想這兩塊其實是相提並論的因為我們在人工智慧發展的時候我想可能在跟公部門的一個接觸過程裡面他們也會很直接告訴我們的產業界說其實"},{"start":8773.27,"end":8793.579,"text":"單純要從公部門來發展AI有它的限制性其實很多的時候也需要師部門的力量一起來投入尤其是在科技研發的這一塊的能量上面再來是建立資料開放跟共享機制我想前面有許多先進都已經提到說資料的開放跟共享確實會影響到我們AI的訓練以及模型的成熟度"},{"start":8798.781,"end":8823.042,"text":"當然我們這個資料的共享要如何來設計這個制度我想也是未來我們相關的法規會來處理的比較細節的地方那在這邊我想另外提到的是可能會有的潛在的衝擊包含我們都有提到所謂的資料最小化的原則但是在這邊我們可能也要來思考看看因為AI訓練裡面我們需要的是大量的資料"},{"start":8826.084,"end":8837.495,"text":"那這個最小化原則跟大量資料之間這個橫勾到底要怎麼來彌平我想可能在基本法裡面很難處理但是很開心今天有很多的政府部會來到現場我想未來的這個細節的這個規範裡面"},{"start":8842.74,"end":8858.665,"text":"很需要也有產業界的聲音進來包含學術界的聲音進來大家一起來集思廣益如何來處理這一塊那可能也有其他跟個資法潛在的法益衝突我們也需要來好好的思考一下包含我們現在個資法強調的可刪除權但是我們也發現在產業發展的過程裡面M型訓練後的資料其實是不好刪除的"},{"start":8866.528,"end":8878.195,"text":"尤其他可能透過他自我的訓練他其實已經散發他各個神經元裡面到底要怎麼解決這個資料刪除的議題甚至我們一直很在意的可能有歧視或偏見的議題這個也是我們需要再來解決的"},{"start":8882.557,"end":8899.594,"text":"那另外我們可能也要再思考看關於人工智慧風險分類我想現在我們每一部的提案裡面基本上都有提到這個分類的概念可是這個風險分類我們要提出一個觀點就是詐騙集團他們運用AI是沒有在受管制的"},{"start":8900.054,"end":8923.376,"text":"那假設說我們今天公司部門為了防詐的目的發展跟運用AI要進行打詐的時候我們是不是要應該思考說這樣子的AI風險模型會落在哪一個分類裡面那甚至我們也很感謝葛委員提出來的第13條裡面其實他們就有把法規條式甚至可能有沙盒這樣的概念納入我想這個也是為了我們的這個發展"},{"start":8924.697,"end":8953.843,"text":"提供一个合适还有弹性合法的空间那最后是人工智慧安全标准还有验证的机制我想目前会遇到就是产业复杂性的挑战因为每个产业它运用的AI模型是会不同的甚至领域也不同但是我们强调的标准跟验证会有一致性的要求那如何在这么复杂的一个产业里面取出一致性这件事情我想就是留待未来可以有产官学一起来共同讨论谢谢大家"},{"start":8956.5,"end":8960.411,"text":"謝謝林益榮經理的發言接下來請邱文聰處長發言吳宗憲委員準備"},{"start":8972.513,"end":8987.483,"text":"主席各位委員還有在座各位委員跟與會的各部會的代表還有各位專家學大家好那我們來談所謂的AI的治理個人認為必須要處理兩個面向的問題第一個就是AI的開發前端的問題他這裡需要處理的"},{"start":8989.344,"end":9007.167,"text":"包括人力、算力及資料的問題跟未來之後的AI應用面向的問題那我先談應用面向的問題大家在談應用面向的時候都會舉所謂的美國模式跟歐盟模式那美國以這種比較是原則式的規範軟法的方式而相對於歐盟它是一個比較"},{"start":9008.229,"end":9016.099,"text":"以具體的規則的方式來這個比較強硬的方式來執法那今年二月初的時候呢美國副總統J.D."},{"start":9016.099,"end":9021.726,"text":"Vance他甚至在巴黎的高峰會上面就公開批評歐盟的模式會扼殺創新"},{"start":9024.049,"end":9040.312,"text":"所以這就引起了一個軒然大波說那究竟到底要怎麼做那Vance他甚至舉了一個例子跟剛剛那個儀秀秘書長提的例子有點像就是他舉了軍刀軍刀當初協助了美國獨立的建國所以他說軍刀呢"},{"start":9040.692,"end":9065.658,"text":"如果用在好的地方它可以帶來文明的創新但用在壞的地方它可能會傷害個人所以他暗示了什麼呢他暗示說AI似乎它就像一把軍刀一樣不需要做太多的事前管制只需要做事後的管制什麼叫做事後管制就是你拿來亂用用來傷害人的時候我們才需要管制但是反之如果用在好的地方我們其實不需要事前的管制"},{"start":9066.238,"end":9093.385,"text":"但是究竟我們台灣的模式應該如何來選擇的時候個人認為要從兩個面向來思考第一個是從事物的本質什麼是事物的本質就是說到底AI像不像是一把刀這個問題上面我認為我們必須要理解說以比如說我們大家比較熟悉的食品跟藥品這兩種類型的管制模式當成是一個例子來思考的話食品它基本上"},{"start":9093.925,"end":9111.341,"text":"不太需要做事前的管制但是萬一發生了食安問題的時候我們需要做事後的一個究責反之藥品你需要做事前的管制你需要有事前的充分的證據證明它是有效安全的我們才會讓它去上市那AI究竟像是食品還是藥品"},{"start":9111.661,"end":9128.124,"text":"我們必須看不同的事物不同的本質來決定而不能夠一概而論的說它就是一把軍刀所以我們都不需要事情的管制它需要適當的針對某些類型特別是什麼特別是那種我們不是用模仿現在人類行為來做的AI而是拿來做預測的"},{"start":9129.085,"end":9148.239,"text":"那當這種預測會影響到重大的個人的權利的時候這種AI的應用它其實就需要比較高度的事前的管制那我相信台灣的模式必須就考量自己本身的社會文化的一些特殊性來提出我們自己的AI的這個風險的分類我想這個是會有別於美國跟歐盟的"},{"start":9149.039,"end":9166.6,"text":"那再來我們談一下就是前端的開發我們需要處理的人力、算力跟最重要的資料的問題那人力、算力的問題我想剛剛已經有很多學者提到那資料的問題是我比較擅長所以我就在這邊再提出一些我的看法"},{"start":9167.521,"end":9190.93,"text":"怎麼樣在資料的運用上面能夠回到以人為本這件事情非常重要雖然我們都知道這個資料的使用會關係到整個AI開發成功與否那裡頭涉及到兩類資料一種就是個資另外一種跟諸位權有關的個資的使用要如何以人為本這件事情大家過去都是在"},{"start":9192.231,"end":9210.888,"text":"這個絞盡腦汁的去想出各種去用這個技術方式去處理過之後讓它去識別化好像就跟個人沒有關了所以我們就不需要去關心不用去擔心個人的權益那前面許明輝教授他也特別指這個點名我他說我跟他有十年以來的這個爭議其實我跟他爭議已經在"},{"start":9211.948,"end":9235.55,"text":"111年的宪判是13号里头获得这个解决也就是说其实各自的使用如果是做目的外的利用的话你需要有法律的明确的授权依据之外还要起码要能够提供个人有一个退出权所以在AI的时代里头我们透过去识别的话的方式有没有办法处理的这个问题我们必须去思考就是说AI的资料的利用我们需要做串联"},{"start":9236.35,"end":9261.227,"text":"資料要串聯其實它就仍然是個資就不會像是許明輝教授講到的美國HIPAA Privacy Rule裡頭這種去識別化的方式因為去識別化它已經不能夠串聯但是我們要串聯基本上就不可能完全的去識別化在這個意義上面我認為我們應該要善用的是現在的IT的技術來協助個人資料當事人去行使他的權利我們不應該只是"},{"start":9262.308,"end":9277.91,"text":"講究所謂內卷式的用資料去識別化的方式來做資料的這個利用而應該思考是我們怎麼樣向外的去engage資料當事人他可以透過好的IIT的這個協助來行使他的權利來促進他的資料的選擇權"},{"start":9279.031,"end":9294.582,"text":"他願意參與AI的開發那他可以來選擇他如果他不願意的話他也可以用一個成本相對比較低的方式來決定他的一個資料的目的外利用的一個方式那我想這個是才是能夠回到以人為本的資料利用的一個前提"},{"start":9295.402,"end":9309.291,"text":"其次針對豬肉圈的這個部分雖然剛剛有幾位先進有提到說在訓練階段似乎不太需要去顧慮豬肉圈的問題那我想還是要提醒一下就是說豬肉圈在前面的訓練階段"},{"start":9311.792,"end":9326.22,"text":"雖然現在世界各國好像沒有一個統一的方式在做但是回到著作權法的基本核心有兩個模式一個模式就是說你要取得授權授權的話就是一個一個一個的transaction所以它的交易成本會非常的高"},{"start":9327.04,"end":9352.13,"text":"另外一種模式就是合理使用合理使用就是說法院宣告它是合理使用之後就沒有交易市場了因為不需要交易了你就可以拿去用了這兩種模式其實個人認為都不是適當的一種模式因為前一種成本太高另外一種模式是你完全就忽略了content provider它原來應該要保這個受到的權益的保障所以第三種模式可能方向是什麼其實是可能要透過立法的方式來給這樣的一種"},{"start":9354.031,"end":9379.948,"text":"AI的訓練或是資料探勘有一個法定的授權再搭配一定程度的這種compensation那這樣的一個方式才能夠適度的在財產權上面去保障這個著作財產權的一個權益那另外一方面也能夠促進這樣一個資料利用這樣子的模式才是個人認為呢是能夠符合所謂的以人為本的這樣一種資料的開發訓練跟應用以上 謝謝"},{"start":9388.394,"end":9394.577,"text":"謝謝邱文聰處長的發言接下來請洪孟楷委員發言吳宗憲委員準備謝謝"},{"start":9402.492,"end":9420.924,"text":"主席各位委員同仁以及各位在場的先進我想今天非常的有意義是我們召委排人工智慧基本法草案的公聽會並且開宗明義就強調我們整體的一個方向以及我們現在面臨到的挑戰跟作為我要先跟各位先進報告"},{"start":9423.202,"end":9446.241,"text":"最近我有做兩個很明顯的例子來做人工智慧也是AI的運用在我的行業上面上個禮拜我拿到一份一千多頁的產業報告非常專業的報告我們使用了AI就是ChapGDP丟進去十分鐘不到的時間他幫我整理出脈絡、段落以及相關結論"},{"start":9448.098,"end":9467.247,"text":"讓我可以一目了然馬上從原本可能要花兩天的時間可能要三個同仁來很專業的了解這樣子一千多頁的一個產業背景的報告變成是我馬上可以理解的一個條列式的一個簡要結論第二剛剛我特別過來的時候同仁給我一個談餐"},{"start":9468.837,"end":9483.957,"text":"也是我把大方向給同仁之後同仁幫我寫的談判我想說測試一下所以我就請ChapGDP生成一個600字的新聞稿看了之後真的覺得好像馬上就可以發出來給各位先進來做參考跟指證"},{"start":9484.838,"end":9511.274,"text":"而我講的這一些其實在各位先進的眼裡或耳裡我相信一定都是很粗淺的運用我也知道現在AI人工智慧的運用程度在各行各業程度不一而更多的是可以有大量使用的部分包括程式碼的一個編輯包括文本的一個判讀以及包括影像的生成等等的所以"},{"start":9512.114,"end":9533.712,"text":"既然身為立法委員也好或者說各行各業的角色都會有AI的一個衝擊的時候我們要怎麼樣能夠幫助我們台灣行業裡面把AI人工智慧基本法正式來落實並且有一個合理的規範保障隱私保障勞工的權益並且能夠增加我們的一個競爭優勢這是我們的關鍵"},{"start":9535.814,"end":9554.797,"text":"其實在教育文化委員會這個會場裡面我已經不止一次跟我們的召委也提到我們在這一屆的使命就是一定要催生AI人工智慧基本法而已經是第三個會期了我們也希望我們政府趕快能夠讓我們看到我們的一個草案好"},{"start":9556.162,"end":9576.449,"text":"說起來我想我的核心價值以及對於我們這一部台灣版的人工智慧基本法有四大面向必須要兼顧第一產業的創新以及轉型發展目前大家講歐盟模式也好美國模式也好那怎麼樣能夠變成是我們的台灣模式"},{"start":9577.526,"end":9589.91,"text":"其實對於產業的一個參與跟致力的一個機制大家都說避免要過早的一個設限但是能夠讓AI來協助我們來創新來變成是助力而非障礙"},{"start":9594.791,"end":9618.663,"text":"這一點就是我們所希望能夠看到的也因此在台灣相對來講過去我們都講是說我們最大的一個優勢就是人才的一個靈活度以及我們每一個人都充滿創意想像的部分我真的認為其實如果說有AI能夠來加入的話反而更能夠相輔相成對於我們的人才競爭優勢但第二個部分"},{"start":9619.443,"end":9646.326,"text":"保障個資以及數據管理在推動開放資料的時候怎麼樣能夠保護民眾自主的資料自主權賦予可吸權以及刪除權建立專責的監管單位落實對AI資料運用風險集合以及補償機制我們國家裡面現在有所謂的數位發展部但過去我們一直強調其實我們的個資保障明顯不足"},{"start":9646.874,"end":9668.469,"text":"不管是在我們的網路世界也好不管是在各大的網站平台或者是之後未來如果說有這樣子的一個AI再來去做使用的時候個人的資料如何來做一個有效的保障並且能夠有專責的單位來去落實風險集合以及應用我想這一點部分是我會在之後"},{"start":9669.049,"end":9689.991,"text":"人工智慧基本法裡面草案特別注重而且重視的地方以及第三防範AI濫用跟心情的犯罪尤其是像身為影像AI詐騙等相關的威脅其實大家看到我們現在也看到很多的不管是網路上的留言或者是說什麼樣的一個"},{"start":9693.075,"end":9707.855,"text":"文本其實AI要去仿照模仿去做這樣的一個風格寫作一點也不難甚至給他關鍵字他可以一次生出八個十個不同的版本跟劇本"},{"start":9708.476,"end":9732.993,"text":"如果說這樣子的一個方向越來越多越來越廣的時候我們到底在網路世界或是到底在真實看到文章的時候哪一個是真人寫哪一個是AI寫這一點就是我們要認為防範於未來未來的可能的新型犯罪我們應該界定並且加重相關的行則以及最後是保障我們現行勞工的權益"},{"start":9734.755,"end":9760.751,"text":"很多時候大家會害怕AI的推出反而會讓過去勞力密集的地方而造成這個員工權益就是大幅的可能工作機會降低等等譬如說我剛剛講的這樣的一個例子一千多頁的報告過去需要三個人可能專業的人士大幅的去整理現在只需要十分鐘他可以馬上幫你整理到位"},{"start":9761.491,"end":9788.035,"text":"那未來人員的一個配置以及職癌的轉型該怎麼做我一直強調我也一直認為是在人工智慧的部分我其實有一個充滿的想像就是未來是會下指令的人有絕對的優勢所以過去幾十年來我們的教育體制我們的社會環境都是培養如何去"},{"start":9789.884,"end":9803.898,"text":"做好指令的人能夠從如何做好指令的人這樣的一個教育方向角度來變成是如何去培養一個會下指令的人利用科技利用環境利用我們的電腦設備等等讓"},{"start":9805.76,"end":9828.892,"text":"AI來去協助做這些指令的執行我想更加重要所以最後我還是再次強調今天的公聽會讓我能夠來發表我自己的一個看法以及跟各位先進來做一個互動我也會在辦公室裡面聆聽我們所有先進所發言以及做這樣子的一個人工智慧基本法的一個方向的期待"},{"start":9829.412,"end":9854.245,"text":"我們更希望是看到未來行政院出來的版本的時候我們會在教育文化委員會以及相關的委員會聯席的時候一條一條的來審查能夠達成我們大家所期待的幫助我們產業的發展提高我們國家的競爭力並且保護個人的個資以及照顧有可能的勞工權益這一些面向都是我們一起持續關注"},{"start":9855.225,"end":9860.508,"text":"祝福我們今天開會順利成功 也感謝昭偉再次感謝各位先進 祝福大家 謝謝"},{"start":9876.978,"end":9900.395,"text":"謝謝主席 大家早安我今天很高興說教文跟教養委員會能夠對AI基本法又往前邁進一大步從去年4月我在跟葛昭偉還有洪孟凱委員我們在共提了一個AI基本法然後這段時間還好我們的科技委員葛委員他不斷的呼籲奔走之下"},{"start":9902.016,"end":9923.922,"text":"雖然立法院這邊很熱一直在努力的進步但是行政院似乎還是一直在停滯而且到現在都還不願意把草案送到國會那其實這個跟國際的趨勢是背道而馳那加上政府最近的一些政策幾乎也搞不清楚這個所謂的AI政府會不會像葛偉元說的會A變成B變BI這個我也不知道"},{"start":9924.502,"end":9953.252,"text":"尤其是我們看到最近的一些狀況AI它所需要的運算需要大量的電力以及晶片就我們的電力我們的發電是比較貴而且在國際間認為是屬於髒電就是用不乾淨能源所發的電力那在晶片的部分呢我們最近的一些新聞包括台積電要到美國設廠降低全世界高階晶片在台灣生產的這個比重這個其實對於AI的發展其實反而是負面的做法所以政府的政策"},{"start":9954.531,"end":9975.457,"text":"不懂為什麼其實他是往AI發展的反方向去走第二個就是所謂的AI內閣為什麼他到目前為止都不願意把這個基本法的草案送到國會我想說不管政府怎麼樣我們國會還是盡我們的全力去努力那今天我很感謝所有的這些與會的學者給我們很多方面還有周全的意見"},{"start":9976.497,"end":9994.611,"text":"那我過去在2020年那個時候我自己在研究所念工業工程的時候其實我那時候的論文主要就是寫跟人工智慧有關的那我是利用人工智慧的系統去做一些洗錢上面的偵測以及防治那這個東西在目前實務上面也用了很多因為它可以"},{"start":9995.211,"end":10011.103,"text":"先做第一線的防治第一線的把一些問題勾結出來那他利用自己不斷的學習不斷的精進就是人工智慧的系統他對於洗錢的防治其實有很大的幫助那目前食物也運作的很好"},{"start":10012.163,"end":10032.995,"text":"所以我覺得人工智慧它在將來一定是人類世界一個非常重要的東西而且它的發展不會像人類文明的發展是循序漸進它可能走到某一個程度之後它是瞬間的跳一倍跳十倍跳一百倍是瞬間的跳所以這是人工智慧不一樣有別於人類智慧不一樣的地方"},{"start":10033.875,"end":10061.228,"text":"那我在還沒擔任立委的時候其實我在財團法人人工智慧法律國際基金會擔任副執行長那這也是國內第一個去研究人工智慧法律方面的一個基金會那我們也很謝謝基金會這段時間給我們非常多的指導以及這個立法方面的給他們經過很多年的這個討論出來的這個結晶其實我們在國會也是很倚重這個法案"},{"start":10063.929,"end":10089.676,"text":"我在去年所主題的這個草案其實我們主要是希望建構四個重點一個是以人為本多元包容永續發展還有值得信任其實它就橫跨了將來人工智慧發達之後人類跟機器之間要怎麼去協調怎麼保障一些失業的人口怎麼樣讓國家加強對於失業的因為人工智慧而失業的人他們的補助以及一些譬如說"},{"start":10090.976,"end":10111.328,"text":"一些個人資料等等的這個保護這個東西在我們的基本法都有特別說到當然基本法不是作用法基本法是整個AI走向的一個很重要的一個方向指導的那個方向的一個很基礎的一個法制我們希望把人工智慧導向一個正向的一個發展"},{"start":10112.048,"end":10138.285,"text":"同時帶動國家整體的這個數位轉型也同時造福我們一般的人民那今年那個葛委員他有主題我也跟他一起共提的這個法案其實方向都是一致的那我們幾個包括洪委員我們三個其實一直很努力的推動希望在這個會期能夠趕快把人工智慧基本法推過去因為當初我們推出草案開記者會的時候我記得那時候歐洲才剛過"},{"start":10139.266,"end":10147.03,"text":"就這段時間我們一直停滯不前其他國家亞洲韓國等等他們一直在往前超前但是我們一直在原地踏步我希望"},{"start":10148.567,"end":10168.659,"text":"不管怎麼樣政府不走可是我們立法院這邊還是要努力的推動過去因為只有基本法確認完方向之後各個領域的作用法才能夠趕快出來否則就是完全停在那裡那你要知道像我剛說的人工智慧的發展跟人類智慧的堆疊累積真的不一樣"},{"start":10169.82,"end":10189.869,"text":"他可能是許多不同的機器他所學習到的東西到時候彙整在一起的時候那是一瞬間的所以人類從從知道走到這個地方會跌倒他可能要三歲五歲多次的經驗去摸插頭會被電到他可能要好幾年的經驗累積他才知道要要規避掉這個但是"},{"start":10190.689,"end":10206.441,"text":"有人工智慧的話它可能是瞬間因為它同時可能全世界有幾千萬台機器去學習到這個知識瞬間匯集給它也就是說人工智慧的發展就是我剛剛說的匯瞬間如果我們在法制的推動上面總是延宕總是"},{"start":10207.842,"end":10223.122,"text":"那個沒有往前再踏一步的話我們完全跟不上人工智慧的發展以及產業上面的需求所以我很謝謝就是兩位葛昭偉還有洪偉勇我們這幾位戰友我們一直在拼命在這一塊上面"},{"start":10225.472,"end":10250.398,"text":"最後我想說時間也不多啦我還是希望各個領域的專家學者能夠給我們最好的建議因為目前立法院各個委員已經提出非常多不同的版本雖然方向大致上都相同但是我們還是希望在彙整各大家的這些經驗譬如說葛昭偉他正在科技上面非常非常的厲害那他給我們很多的經驗然後讓我們去修出最好的"},{"start":10251.078,"end":10277.239,"text":"基本法出來然後這個基本法因為它是基本法所以它可以因應在各個領域這個方向是不會變的讓各個領域都能夠有自己最好的作用法出來那還有我也對於那個昭偉他所倡議的說要設置獨立的委員會例如像韓國的制度這部分我也是非常支持那我也希望說政府能夠好好的研討這個有意義的這個建議"},{"start":10279,"end":10299.055,"text":"當然最後還是希望行政機關趕快推出法案一個基本法講了那麼多年了卻都推不出來還是在搞整天搞大罷免我真不知道國家這樣會走向什麼樣的方向好那最後我要謝謝那個裁判法人人工智慧法律國際研究基金會這段時間給我們的指導好謝謝給我們這麼多經驗上面的傳承好謝謝 謝謝各位"},{"start":10305.822,"end":10312.18,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員的發言接下來請李建良特聘研究員發言洪玉祥博士準備"},{"start":10321.887,"end":10340.498,"text":"主席各位在場的先進大家早安感謝趙薇安排這一場的公聽會讓我有機會針對人工智慧基本法草案的議題來表示我個人的看法"},{"start":10341.558,"end":10367.21,"text":"首先就是針對我們今天的議題就是人工智慧基本法草案這個議題裡頭的一個中心的概念就是基本法也就是說我們要以基本法的方式來規範人工智慧我想大家都知道基本法是我們台灣立法的一個特色可能大家不知道我們總共大概有11部的基本法最早大概就是教育基本法"},{"start":10368.551,"end":10386.262,"text":"還有最近的就是去年的新住民基本法我們也可以說基本法是我們立法的一種特殊形態它的優點就是可以把基本的原則在一部法律裡頭非常清楚的展現同時它對於這個觀念還有整個"},{"start":10389.364,"end":10416.118,"text":"這個相關議題的一個架構可以非常清楚的一個展現我們可以說它這一種立法的藍圖可以讓我們這個暗圖所計可以以這個為基礎來前進不過我想大家也應該知道就是基本法的同時它的一個可能它的弱點就是說它要落地其實還有一段的這個距離所以說我想各位都知道"},{"start":10417.859,"end":10445.376,"text":"基本法在法院的判決裡頭很少引用唯一的例外當然就是原住民主基本法我想大家都知道這個重點為什麼呢因為它裡頭有一個條文說如果今天的開發是在一個原住民地區的話要經過原住民的同意所以這個例子才告訴我們說基本法有它的優點有它的局限性我個人並不反對訂定人工智慧基本法"},{"start":10446.176,"end":10473.231,"text":"我接下來要談的是說我們如何讓這個基本法能夠展現它的優點然後作為下一步我們要落實的一個基礎首先我想先談的一點就是大家在談到說美國模式跟歐盟模式當然我們會說它表面上一個是法律一個是所謂的行政命令但是我們必須要更進一步去看是"},{"start":10474.332,"end":10479.255,"text":"美國模式的規範對象是政府部門歐盟不是在規範政府部門,而是在規範人民"},{"start":10494.484,"end":10515.176,"text":"也就是所謂的Provider, Deployer, Importer等等它其實是規範了所有的業者或是人民因此它必須要有一些要件甚至它有罰則所以這是兩個最基本性的一個差異性這個基本上的差異性在我們立法的時候當然我們就會發現說"},{"start":10517.678,"end":10539.413,"text":"單純從這個基本法他沒有辦法去把這個部分形成起來那我們的法律規定我們大概可以看得出來基本法裡頭的主詞都是政府那麼當然我們要注意到各位人的這個版本上面有兩個名稱一個是國家一個是政府所以這個就要注意說在同一個版本裡頭有國家跟政府那這兩個差別是什麼但這是題外話"},{"start":10540.794,"end":10565.179,"text":"那接下來就是這是第一個部分就是說我們必須要認清我們今天規範的對象如果是人民的時候呢那麼當然剛剛都有提到說他是一個基本法不是作用法但是我們如果讓他能夠再move on的話呢我們必須要考量這個部分那第二點呢想要提出來就是我們的規範對象是人工智慧因此我們當然上面都會有人工智慧的定義"},{"start":10566.059,"end":10587.909,"text":"那這個當然就是當它變成定義的時候呢就是它再也不是我們一般講什麼是人工智慧什麼是AI我們就會follow這個定義那因此這個也是我們將來要去注意到的地方是我們常常規定說本法所稱什麼什麼什麼但是一旦定了之後呢可能它會影響到所有的法律我們今天所有法律提到人工智慧的話就會referred到"},{"start":10588.609,"end":10607.784,"text":"Referred到我們這個法律裡頭這是第一點第二點就是我們是把AI把它當作一般性整個來談我們並沒有去分但是我想各位知道說之所以現在這個歐盟的這個AI Act它會通過其實是因為深深是AI的關係也就是深深是AI它的這個"},{"start":10609.198,"end":10632.657,"text":"影響力跟專業性的AI我們就是說現在有一個所謂的通用性AI的概念就是所謂general purpose的AI這個部分在基本法裡頭我們訂這個基本法的時候各個版本其實都還是在甚至AI引發影響的這個階段所以這個部分可能在"},{"start":10634.438,"end":10658.256,"text":"基本法的時候可能也要在這個部分把他assign進去這個概念也就是說這個深圳市AI他所產生的這個影響跟他如何來分級是兩個是息息相關的所以接下來我們就知道說分級大概我們都知道這個分級大概會是這個AI基本法的一個重點但是深圳市AI是沒有辦法分級的因為他的"},{"start":10659.476,"end":10685.075,"text":"因此我們會有另外一個概念就是對社會的衝擊性所以它的判準是用算力來判準它不是用風險來判準所以這個觀念我們可能也必須要進去這個基本法裡面那這個是屬於風險的這個部分跟我們規範的對象是不是要把它統一的做一個AI這個部分來談"},{"start":10687.183,"end":10713.18,"text":"那在這個基礎之下我們想就要談說風險分級這是一個問題那我想這個這個歐盟的AI基本法它已經有一個非常完整的風險的這個分級我們當然我們也可以把它copy過但重點不在這裡重點是誰來判斷風級誰來判斷所以接下來這個機制的問題呢可能會牽涉到我想剛剛都有提到說我們需要有一個主管機關"},{"start":10714.341,"end":10740.49,"text":"但是我們問題是主管機關要做什麼當然這個兩個版本裡頭都會提到說主管機關是國科會當然這是過去就是講國科會但是現在會不會因為這個主政機關從國科會移到這個數化部呢我們要把主管機關改成這個數化部但是問題重點不在這裡重點是主管機關要做什麼那我們的這個基本法草案裡頭基本上就是協調"},{"start":10742.572,"end":10763.231,"text":"做一種coordinate如果主管機關只是做這個coordinate的話其實這個部分的主管機關可能更合適的是這個所謂AI戰略委員會它升級更高但是我們如果我剛才講的歐盟的AI的這個模式的話它主管機關是要去管的 去判斷的去開罰單的 那個部分我們"},{"start":10768.095,"end":10785.669,"text":"哪一個機關才合適呢如果我們去面對這個問題的時候它可能就是一個可能是下一步我們要去做的那最後我想就是抱歉 耽誤一點時間最後就是回到這個我們今天的主題之一就是所謂資料開放或者所謂的資料的這個治理"},{"start":10786.269,"end":10812.979,"text":"那我想要提出的觀念就是說資料開放資料治理呢是一個通案性的問題不是AI的問題也就是說呢它是一個我們的所謂數位infrastructure的問題所以這個部分呢它不會它如果要定在AI基本法裡頭的話呢它頂多只能夠規範跟AI性質相關的部分但是這個部分我們必須要拉出來做全面性的就是資料治理呢"},{"start":10813.539,"end":10831.742,"text":"他有好幾面就所謂的各自的問題有所謂資料開放的問題當然還有這個所謂的剛剛其實有提到說這個資料裡頭有所謂的非個人資料的話他的所謂利他的這個部分的這個提升那最後呢其實還有一點就是資料的"},{"start":10832.403,"end":10858.388,"text":"品質問題所以一般我沒有特別注意到就是所謂的這個Garbage in Garbage out的這個部分就是說我們要減少這個資料是一個Garbage那這個部分就是未來一個資料治理的一個思維的方向以上簡單的簡介 謝謝謝謝李建良 特別研究員的發言接下來我們請洪玉祥 博士發言王志清 蘇委長準備"},{"start":10862.076,"end":10883.144,"text":"主席還有各位先進還有各位列席的這個部會的代表我想今天這個是代表我們這個產業的聲音因為去年的話我們大概也辦了很多場的座談大概87個業者的一個參與那今天在這個人工智慧基本法的草案的話大概先把這個"},{"start":10884.936,"end":10913.242,"text":"產業的聲音跟各位大概簡單的說明第一個來講的話我們大概在繁體中文的一個大語言的模型那我們業界還是認為需要有國家的政府的長期的支持然後研發出來持續性的維護那這樣子來講的話我們才可以避免我們很多的業者在接這個政府的標案的時候所產生的一些用到這個簡體等等這樣子的一個用語的誤差"},{"start":10914.73,"end":10937.269,"text":"那第二塊的話剛剛各位很多的業界先進都提過就是我們的這些開放的資料的一個取得非常的不太容易所以在這裡頭不管是包含像這個蔡理事長她所講的這種Public Data的一個Set那我想在這一塊地方也大概是我們業界反應的問題那也因為有這些的資料"},{"start":10938.308,"end":10956.076,"text":"如果沒有一個比較public data set的這樣子的一個看法的時候我們可能業者在用一些這樣子的一個資料那可能就牽扯到一些安全惡思隱知的一個問題所以使得他的產品的研發可能受挫或是在應用的時候可能會碰到一個就是未來開發就失敗"},{"start":10958.769,"end":10981.86,"text":"那另外的話就是在法規啦就是說也是跟資料有關我們認為說在這些相關的法規政府是不是也在未來的話提供一個比較讓我們可以遵循的這樣子的一個環境就是說知道哪一些是可以做哪一些高風險的時候我可以怎麼樣子來執行低風險的時候我應該怎麼樣子來做那這樣子來講在客戶的使用上信任度"},{"start":10982.853,"end":11007.421,"text":"相對它也會比較高那這樣子來講的話對我們的一個服務跟市場的拓展會比較有利一點那當然還有很多包含這些產業的發展等等那再來的話就是大家都會提到就是人才的一個短缺的問題那每一個行業都在喊其實我們在做數位轉型的時候不只是軟體產業各行各業百工百業都在喊"},{"start":11008.444,"end":11034.584,"text":"那人不夠怎麼辦那我們業界這邊還有另外一個思考的話就是說是不是在思考到底我要培育什麼樣的人所以可能未來教育部的話可能除了說你現在未來的人才是多少資訊要多少到底我們要培育什麼樣的人才就先把那個N夠先定出來是應用的人才還是研發的人才不夠的話我到底要怎麼補那補的時候是海就是國內補還是海外也可以補"},{"start":11035.485,"end":11063.902,"text":"那現在我們也知道很多資訊學門的一些的學生的數量明顯嚴重的不足啦所以我想這一塊的話我想在這個我們業界的反應的話會是這樣那另外的還有一個普遍就是所謂的預算的失衡的問題如果各位去把這些長年以來的話這些國客會用債相關的這些政府的補助預算的時候其實都是重硬輕軟尤其是在晶片 晶創可是AI的重點是什麼"},{"start":11064.722,"end":11083.963,"text":"資料軟體應用服務所以我是覺得說我們業界認為說如果你台灣要發展AI那除了算力我覺得算力還好買就是只要跟輝達講這個差不多但是我到底我們的軟體的應用服務開發到底要做什麼樣的預算投資我們希望是長期的支援"},{"start":11085.758,"end":11105.83,"text":"所以在這邊來講的話大概就把他們稍微歸納起來第一個我們還是希望政府持續的這個來提供這樣的國家級的大型的繁中的模型我想等一下徐永珍老師應該對這個很有感覺因為我們的預算實在是也很低大概就2.3億而已我覺得這可以持續再擴大或維持"},{"start":11107.165,"end":11130.258,"text":"那另外的話就是在產業的應用來講的話我覺得剛剛很多的業者都攔到重點是在於說你要用出來嘛才有價值所以到底我們台灣什麼樣子很特色的產業所以我們業者的建議是希望能夠在這些的將來各部位在提的時候希望能夠有一個AI加X的這種東西"},{"start":11130.638,"end":11159.145,"text":"也就是說在台灣比較擅長可以創造的不同的應用不管你是在醫療不管你是在製造不管你是在教育等等到底什麼樣才是我們最好的一個服務然後可以是帶動我們下一波的經濟發展不然未來的話因為各位要知道軟體服務是不用收關稅的嘛我只要收當地的加值稅就好不然美中關稅大戰的話我覺得台灣未來真的是可以往軟體跟服務的這樣方向去重視"},{"start":11160.683,"end":11167.977,"text":"那再來的話呢就是我們認為業者的話就是說在資料的相關法規我們還是希望在立法上面"},{"start":11169.571,"end":11197.93,"text":"一定要理但是不要太給我們過度的一個監督我所謂的監督就是限制太多因為限制太多的話其實我的研發的速度我的這個創新的速度就太慢所以我比較贊同剛剛不管是江中處長或是明慧教授講就我們先分一下這到底應用是什麼樣子那如果有些東西的一個使用像剛剛來講你或者是藥品的使用還是產品就是你的食物是事後再管制"},{"start":11198.843,"end":11218.344,"text":"我們業界的看法是說台灣的AI軟體的應用的發展就還沒起來你給它加一大堆的東西事實上根本就不用起來你立這些法還沒用因為它根本就不會起來的時候它就不會去需要這些法來管就像你當初汽車跟馬車在競爭的時候它絕對不會定到說你要有馬花斑馬線"},{"start":11219.085,"end":11237.702,"text":"然後噴到新的你右轉的時候要理讓他這個都是未來之後才會是發生的所以我們是希望是說在這樣的情況之下先讓台灣的這些AI的產業跟應用先發展起來但是我法在上面的話提供適度的這樣子的一個補償或者是說這種事後的這樣子的一個規範這是大概我們是講的"},{"start":11241.585,"end":11264.188,"text":"那最後因為時間的關係我們認為在這一個歐盟跟美國的模式我們還是希望是說可以是權衡跟平衡之間讓我們的產業創新不要受到阻礙但是在風險的控管分歧可以是適度但是不要去過度那我們也支持就是各位所提的就是說在一個治理的基本法"},{"start":11265.131,"end":11290.574,"text":"然後基本上在這個治理的委員會跟這個預算一定比例的監督然後持續的去讓我們台灣不管在人民在勞動的這樣子的權利上獲得一個比較好的一個保障所以大概這個是我們是業界的一個看法以上謝謝謝謝洪玉祥博士的發言接下來有請王志清蘇委長發言徐永禎教授準備"},{"start":11299.922,"end":11325.82,"text":"主席 各位先進以及各政府代表大家好 我是王志勤 力備池的共同創辦人很高興今天來這邊代表產業發表一些意見產業界我覺得非常希望這部人工智慧法可以出台那當然希望這份法它出台不是為了禁錮創新是希望它能為產業帶來相關的方向之語及政策的一些補助"},{"start":11326.821,"end":11353.307,"text":"那我這邊分享一些幾個產業界在導入AI過程中我們實際上遇到的幾個議題首先是資料使用的釋法性那在資料使用上我們在導入企業的時候第一個被企業問到的就是我們使用的資料來源合法嗎?安全嗎?用了會不會侵權?那我這邊舉一個比較落地的案例是這樣子我們其中做了一個專家的AI agent那這個專家其實是業界很有名的這個教授"},{"start":11353.747,"end":11369.153,"text":"那其實以前教授他只要讀完書吸收完知識他就可以做知識的變現可是我們今天在AI使用的時候我們會更嚴謹來看待這些事情我運用這些資料重新訓練AI我會不會侵權那我用哪些資料要怎麼用"},{"start":11369.753,"end":11397.615,"text":"我覺得這有點在AI發展中是一個比較過度我們在看這些事情所以首先從這個產業面來講如果這樣子再處理這些事情的話其實它或多或少都會減低創新的速度那我們再往下看當然我們會討論這個議題就是我們不希望去侵犯原始的著作權人的權益所以我們在思考說怎樣去AI應用完我可以跟原始的著作人達得共贏"},{"start":11398.295,"end":11426.995,"text":"那其次是比如說我使用了這個AI的這個公用的訓練局去訓練以後我要不要標註這些地方我要不要跟他共享利益我想這是後面我們可能會面臨到的事情那再者是我們在訓練AI的過程中會發現說很多的這個資料未到AI以後AI變成是所有公司裡面最具最有權限最高的這個動作那我怎麼去保護他那我想這是資料釋法性跟應用上面我們面臨的第一個比較大的問題"},{"start":11427.435,"end":11442.156,"text":"那第二個是在AI的應用上面各行各業都會受到衝擊那我們怎麼如何去改善這個勞動者的轉型然後補齊落差那最後第三個比較大的問題就是AI的議題那我們發現近期有一些模型是表現特別好的可是呢"},{"start":11442.837,"end":11465.15,"text":"我們在開源的市集我們也發現說有一些模型它是有惡意程式的那這惡意程式可能我們用了這些AI以後其實我的不管是我的資安會受到極大的風險那目前其實也沒有一個風險風級風險風級的一個指引所以在導入上面要嘛就是一刀切所以我想這幾個是我們實際在導入的過程中我想迫切要馬上去解決的問題"},{"start":11466.98,"end":11488.819,"text":"所以呼應這次這個公聽會所以我個人蠻支持就是國家應該有一個足夠高的視角的重要單位比如說像國家AI的戰略委員會進行這個政策的方向以及跨部會的協調那除此之外也應該有一個組織的單位組織單位要負責的應該是具體的指引跟質疑的制度比如說資料的應用、風險的分級"},{"start":11491.24,"end":11508.745,"text":"模型使用的透明度跟資料的標記我想呼應我剛剛第一個產業面的第一個問題那這樣的架構應該可以讓整個速度再加速推進那有了基本法以後組織單位我們就可以思考說台灣的AI發展策略剛剛很多的先進都有提到我們是要針對這個我們要發展"},{"start":11510.566,"end":11539.174,"text":"有特色的大雲模型還是說台灣應該在某些特定的領域我們要去發展我們AI agent的生態圈去跟這些大雲模型去做一個互搭我想整個世界的AI區是各自有各自的重心那台灣也有適合發展的地方那我們怎麼樣去配搭那以及在往後面來講的話政府除了政策資源上面是不是在國家的數位資產剛剛有提到比如說像是健保或者是文化上面的數位資產我們怎麼樣去做公司部門的這個合作"},{"start":11539.594,"end":11559.848,"text":"然後這應該都要在基本法上面給予一些制度性的鼓勵跟支持那後面來講的話目前我們在導入產業界我自己有發現一個比較大的狀況我自己稱為叫做三明治的現況這三明治現況是在AI的導入大型的集團其實都開始在用AI的工具跟導入了"},{"start":11560.208,"end":11574.795,"text":"那反倒是這個另外一個在推進的是我們這個年輕人們他們使用AI的這個技術其實他們掌握度非常高反倒是中間的這個部門我說他是三明治中間的中小企業他可能考量到這個東西會不會有一些衝擊"},{"start":11575.455,"end":11593.224,"text":"安不安全 穩定性高不高甚至是我導了AI有些比較有良心的企業會想說我會不會影響某些工作人的權益這些事情都導致於這個中小企業它的導入我想比原本預期的還緩慢一些相對於國際來講所以在政府上面如果基本法下來以後"},{"start":11593.864,"end":11608.462,"text":"怎麼樣政府有一個產業的政策從中間去把這個東西再擴散那以及有一些公司部門的合作可以加速落地我想或許是我們很期望基本法趕快落地然後我們可以往下面的事情去延伸"},{"start":11609.844,"end":11635.755,"text":"那最後面剛剛有提到這個資安的部分那我想風險的分級蠻重要不是說有些模型有問題然後我就不用那我們還是希望透過這個加速我們在世界在發展AI的中間有一個發展的地位所以怎麼去分級然後我們可以透過使用的場域應用的資料的敏感度那在不同的地方我們去做一個分級然後做一個使用"},{"start":11636.135,"end":11665.094,"text":"我想這樣的話我們在台灣上面我們應該可以按照前面的去找到我們自己發展的定位然後找到一個我們自己的角色來做我想最後就如果總結一下的話我想AI的浪潮會帶來一些衝擊但整體的產業剛剛我們這樣看下來其實我想各行各業都已經開始在影響從教育產業然後製造業然後還有一些可能在教育或者是這個安全的領域上面都已經或多或少都已經帶來影響了"},{"start":11666.175,"end":11682.006,"text":"那我想與其去擔心這件事情或者政府怎麼樣去把這個方向跟基本方向去有一些有一些原則有一些原則跟配套我想基本法這次看到整個的願景跟想要達成方向都有明確的這個定義"},{"start":11683.687,"end":11689.971,"text":"我個人就個人以及產業都很希望這件事情趕快的落地讓負責人我們可以趕快去做那台灣可以在這個階段我們應該不是超歐盟或其他國家透過這樣發展方式台灣自己有明確特色有基礎的點我們在這邊去發展那剛剛這樣談臉下來其實有一些產業或許就可以這樣隱隱而生包含像是AI的風險評鑑的工具測試風險的這個方法論然後再到我們產業界的AI agent"},{"start":11712.383,"end":11732.597,"text":"那這樣子的話各國都有自己發展的立基點我想這是我們希望的那也謝謝今天有機會來到這邊謝謝謝謝王志清蘇委長的發言接下來請游昊委員發言游昊委員好游昊委員不在那接下來請葛如君委員發言"},{"start":11735.234,"end":11761.269,"text":"因為我就不移動讓這個手語翻譯的老師太辛苦所以我就在這邊簡要的做個表達首先我想在過去我們其實在2024年的三四月份我跟吳宗憲委員就已經共同提案作為立法院這一屆會期的第一個人工智慧基本法的草案"},{"start":11761.909,"end":11779.8,"text":"幫我按一下下一頁那在這個草案當中呢也是有賴了這個人工智慧這個國際基金會下一頁就是得非常多的幫忙人工智慧法律國際研究基金會的協助在當時呢提出了一些看法那當時的觀點呢其實是原先覺得這個發展上面"},{"start":11785.723,"end":11813.173,"text":"可能已经开始要进入到管理了那当时有一些这样的思维我们就在这个影片当中请国际研究基金会执行长来做一个简要的说明来说明一下去年的版本的一些梗概谢谢国委员 吴委员以及各位在场的先进长官大家好我是财团法人人工智慧法律国际研究基金会的执行长张立青"},{"start":11814.349,"end":11839.798,"text":"很感謝趙偉讓我有機會以錄影的方式來回應這一次的公聽會我們都知道AI時代已經來臨而且已經快速的發展因此基本法的制定對於因應AI時代的法治需求是非常的重要例如人權的保障國家政策的建立等等這個都是非常的這一個關鍵的因此我們基金會組織的這個研究團隊在諮詢"},{"start":11843.439,"end":11870.188,"text":"这个相关的顾问之后我们提出了符合国际先进立法趋势的AI基本法比如AI伦理原则的法治化而且用国家的高度主导AI发展的策略强调社会公平以及弱势的保障并且尊重基本人权保护隐私跟个人的资料并且促进产业的发展并且以AI应用风险的高低作为管制宽延的这个原则"},{"start":11870.768,"end":11893.044,"text":"在2023年的3月25日我們提倡立法並且發表AI基本法的草案這是一部由民間提出的草案參考了先進國家的立法力結合理論與實務然後在這樣子的這個基礎之下2024年3月本會跟吳宗憲立委葛如軍立委洪孟凱立委也共同推動"},{"start":11894.065,"end":11919.462,"text":"AI基本法的草案進入立法院來審議在此之後七月國科會也公佈了AI基本法的草案那麼關於本次公聽會的討論提綱那我想要以綜合這四部草案的內容來回應以下的這一個提綱首先我們到底要如何去無存精提煉出適合我國的台灣模式的AI基本法呢"},{"start":11920.242,"end":11945.642,"text":"我们认为从本会提出AI基本法草案以来不管是国科会以及社会各界都有关注并且提出各种版本的草案那表示台湾社会对于基本法的制定其实都有相当的共识所以我们可以参照欧盟的模式制定法律同时掺着美国的这个产业自立的精神融合达成AI产业的创新跟管制之间的这个平衡"},{"start":11946.601,"end":11960.44,"text":"接著到底要如何透過AI法治化的過程確保以人為本數位平權跟永續發展的精神呢那要落實這些精神個別法律的部門法例如醫療交通金融製造環境"},{"start":11961.681,"end":11976.674,"text":"教育等都必須加以修正但是在此之前基本法應該先確立基本的規範價值而在法制上我們應該要簡述積極的制定AI基本法而最重要的是合適的主管機關應該要設在速發部因為當AI進入應用"},{"start":11980.257,"end":11999.429,"text":"涉及到保護國家安全以及高風險AI管理的權益等等這個其實都是由速發部主政的範圍而且在實踐上我們強調在基本法制定之後應該要有三年內檢視相關法例是否符合基本法精神的修正"},{"start":12000.7,"end":12023.273,"text":"其他版本雖然也有這樣子的一個檢視但是如果沒有限定時程的這個規範可能會有所遲延好我們要如何兼顧創新以及人前然後提升AI領域的這個科學研究並且增加我們軟硬體的多元競爭優勢呢我們都知道基本法制定的首要任務是在"},{"start":12024.013,"end":12049.162,"text":"框架的這個之下落實各種的AI政策而這種多面向的這種政策譬如研發創新基本教育專業培養產業發展產學合作跟基礎建設這些在這四個版本的這個基本法當中都有可以看出它的相關的立法我們從這樣子的相關立法必然可以增強我國轉硬體的多元的競爭的優勢的"},{"start":12051.411,"end":12072.764,"text":"第四點是如何建立資料開放共享以及再利用機制來提升人工智慧使用資料的可用性因為AI的應用可能侵害個人的隱私資料的權益等等因此如果要建立資料開放共享以及再利用機制應該要完善相關的法規例如個人資料保護法健保"},{"start":12073.604,"end":12099.711,"text":"資料庫使用的相關法規等等因此在2023年本會就提出整個資料的收集處理應用應該要省著人民的隱私資訊自主以及產業發展的均衡維護並且建立必要的保護及監督的機制而國科會的版本以及葛委員的版本也進一步的指出考慮資料應該具有永久性可加解密性之再利用性以及價值可追溯"},{"start":12100.532,"end":12106.471,"text":"記錄的特性那這樣子的一個規範其實是非常值得肯定的最後"},{"start":12107.557,"end":12130.883,"text":"我們來看到底要如何應用AI來確保勞動者的勞動權益呢因為AI的應用可能造成勞動者權益不是自願性的失業的權益侵害所以勞動基準法以及職業安全衛生等法規必須應該相應的修正同樣的在2023年我們所提出的這個基本法就提出"},{"start":12131.203,"end":12149.888,"text":"应该在透过教育产学合作的方式来提升劳动参与因此各级政府应该就AI利用所导致的非自愿性的失业依照他的工作能力给予辅导就业而2024年跟2025年的这个其他委员国科会的版本以及"},{"start":12151.124,"end":12180.246,"text":"各委員的版本都有指出政府應該要針對彌平人工智慧發展所造成的這種失業的問題來加以注重那這是非常重要的我們知道當前正處於AI基本法的立法的一個重要的時機因此我們期待大家可以及時廣益攜手制定符合台灣本土需求然後符合國際趨勢的台灣的AI基本法感謝各位的聆聽敬請大家指教"},{"start":12181.786,"end":12205.217,"text":"好 謝謝葛如君委員的發言那今天也非常感謝大家那我們今天還有一位國立台灣大學資訊工程學系的陳韻榮教授因為今天有事要是不刻前來但是有事先預先錄影那我們是否請議事人員協助播放我們今天的錄影"},{"start":12206.647,"end":12228.824,"text":"大家好我是国立台湾大学资讯管理学系的老师陈玉龙带我的学生林燕婷一起开源了非常多以台湾资料为主的繁体中文语言模型那在开发的过程中我们注意到有几个非常重要的问题第一个呢就是台湾资料其实显著的不足最主要其实来自有非常多的出版社跟著作权人他们其实对于"},{"start":12229.324,"end":12252.054,"text":"資料的開放開放出來給我們來使用做訓練其實是有些抗爭的那在這邊法規其實也還沒有非常的完善去規劃到底怎樣是一個合理的使用對於台灣人這些教育的養成包含是我們的一些價值觀或是我們學習到的這些內容這些都是非常非常重要我們希望語言模型都可以具備的價值觀那我會建議"},{"start":12253.214,"end":12268.111,"text":"我們台灣的這些教育從小學國中甚至到高中我們現在是一綱多本所以一個課綱裡面有非常多不同的教科書的版本它其實都是在傳遞這些教育的內容不管是數學的內容國語的內容或者是甚至是社會的內容"},{"start":12269.132,"end":12284.606,"text":"這些其實都是非常非常重要的資料可以讓模型透過這些資料能夠學習到符合我們台灣人訓練過程中的這些價值觀那如果這些資料可以用某種程度讓他們可以願意開放出來給各界使用"},{"start":12285.547,"end":12308.067,"text":"这样子一来不管是学术界或产业界他们在训练这些模型的时候他们就可以把这些模型训练的比较符合我们国人在过去的教育过程中学习到这些知识内容那这样子不仅是让我们的价值观可以有效的输出体现在这些模型上面它也可以benefit后续用在教育上面的应用"},{"start":12308.888,"end":12336.539,"text":"他們讓這些教育的應用他們知道說哪些內容其實是應該要教給學生的然後教的過程是怎樣教的順序應該是怎樣那這些資料其實都算是一個我覺得對於我們國家來講是共同利益所以我會希望能夠讓這些資料做到某種程度上面的開放然後可以讓學術界跟產業界們可以直接把模型訓練在這些開放出來的重要資料上那這是我的建議謝謝大家"},{"start":12339.133,"end":12359.703,"text":"好 謝謝陳韻農教授的發言那我們今天專家學者委員皆已發言完畢那有19個部會有提供書面的資料真的再次感謝也請各位可以查閱同時我們有Meta公司也提出書面資料會後會補上現在我們請國科會代表回應"},{"start":12365.787,"end":12376.664,"text":"待會還有速發部教育部那如果還有部會要回應的話也可以事先提出我們待會提供時間那我們是否有請國科會先代表回應"},{"start":12401.079,"end":12422.186,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位在場的參選人大家好那今天很高興聽到大家很多很多的建議那我想很多建議應該都還是來自於說大家對於這個基本法的期待那還有對於這個我猜是人才然後或者是資源上面的挹注那我們會把這些"},{"start":12423.927,"end":12444.741,"text":"資訊帶回國科會那會再做內部的討論那當然非常重要的是我們還是會非常地站在支持我們的前端學研的科研的這個角度上面那會帶著會跟大家一起努力那今天很高興聽到大家的很多的建議那我們會把它帶回去做研議謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":12447.987,"end":12453.862,"text":"謝謝國科會副主委陳秉宇副主委代表國科會回應接下來請速發部代表回應"},{"start":12467.803,"end":12485.402,"text":"首先非常感謝昭緯跟各位委員在委員會安排這樣的公聽會各位專家學者各位先進所提供的各種保護意見對於我們本部未來推動AI基本法是非常重要的一個參考首先表示感謝之意"},{"start":12485.902,"end":12512.015,"text":"那第二個當然我們大概從幾個方面來報告第一個是所謂基本法的定位那如各位所知的那基本法基本上是一個原則原理的這樣的一個規定那我們也深深感覺到說將來AI的應用發展是會在各個領域所以除了基本法之外那還會有作用法做進一步的規範那在這樣的情況下基本法的訂定以及它的規範"},{"start":12513.516,"end":12538.418,"text":"最重要是能夠平衡各方面的利益那特別是適合台灣的這個狀況因為剛剛很多先進也提到台灣在這個比較大的語言模型的開發上面會有一定的困難但產業立即是我們有源源不絕的新創與活力那訴發部也基於這樣子所以我們不管在資金或算力上面都是針對具有新創"},{"start":12539.88,"end":12549.05,"text":"對支扶業方面來支柱我們也期待說未來的AI基本法的規定能夠不要阻礙台灣眾多的中小企業來負有創新精神的企業的發展這是第一個報告第二個有關"},{"start":12554.036,"end":12570.006,"text":"都提到非常多的資料治理的問題那有兩個部分一個有關於權力的部分必須要能夠達到一定的平衡那我們在過去推資料治理上面會非常重要一件事情就是說合理的授權運用當然還是需要的因為如果這個著作權法"},{"start":12570.846,"end":12595.08,"text":"這個如果完全排除這個AI在AI訓練上面如果完全是合理使用的話我們已經看到日本會產生一些的問題但是我們會盡力來推所謂標準的授權條款讓大家能夠廣泛運用另外關於繁中資料庫的部分本部已經開始努力來做國家的這個AI的語料庫的推動那這需要一定的時間的累積那另外在人才方面的話"},{"start":12595.9,"end":12617.448,"text":"誠如各位先進都提到大概有兩個不同階段的那我們都會跟國科會跟教育部都來推動一個部分是用AI的就是必須具有AI素養的那這是各個各行各業從產業到學校都需要來做的那另外一方面也是比較高階的具有AI專長的那這是這個兩個不同的層次那本部從政府機關"},{"start":12618.368,"end":12635.392,"text":"以及各方面以及產業界會進行來推動那會跟教育部在其他部份來合作那最後提到各位都提到數位平權的一個非常重要概念那我們我們完成相當同意數位發展部成立的一個主要目的就是希望這個數位的這個基礎"},{"start":12635.712,"end":12654.293,"text":"建設以及數位的應用能夠廣泛為我們的國民所享用所以不管是通訊建設也好或AI的應用發展也好我們都朝向讓全體國民能夠共享我們數位轉型的利益我們非常感謝各位先進各位委員給我們的指教本部也會再參考"},{"start":12656.335,"end":12679.628,"text":"各位的這個寶貴意見繼續推動AI基本法的相關的這個推動以及未來的法律解釋跟各部會來共同合作來推動以上報告 謝謝謝謝速發部葉次長代表回應接下來我們有請教育部次長葉秉成次長代表回應"},{"start":12689.295,"end":12704.848,"text":"我想首先非常感謝今天許多的代表提供我們的這個關於這個AI基本法的許多意見在裡面當中關於這個教育的這一塊我想這個幫台灣培養AI的人才我想這是今天大家很多這個在談到這一塊大家的共識"},{"start":12705.729,"end":12726.104,"text":"這一塊也是教育部持續都在努力的所以包括像這個今天一開始市長的報告我們在這個AI這個大學聯盟持續的怎麼樣在現在這個AI的師資人數能夠有限的情況下怎麼集結各個大學的力量然後來幫台灣幫產業來培養足夠的人才這是我們現在在做那我們也看到說這個"},{"start":12727.165,"end":12749.841,"text":"這個AI大學聯盟在今年在第二個學期的時候其實人數就已經也大幅的上升現在休克人數大概有五千多人但我想剛才這個有這個產業的代表提到一件重要一件事情就是說那我們培養的人到底是什麼樣的人到底台灣的這個產業需要的人是什麼那麼我想這件事情我們會持續的跟速發部這個在做更緊密的合作就從"},{"start":12750.561,"end":12763.712,"text":"速發部因為教育部這邊其實會需要其他部會讓我們知道說產業到底需要哪些人那當比如說速發部或是其他部會告訴我們的時候那當然我們就再開始跟大學聯盟的這個老師們說那這個是什麼課其實產業很需要的我們要開始做這個"},{"start":12767.395,"end":12789.588,"text":"也讓產業知道的是我們AI大學聯盟其實已經把這些人才已經分成已經有做分類了像我們現在有四個不同的學分學程這裡面有做非常High-end的技術在做這個自然語言處理的這一塊的或是這個AI影像處理這個智慧影像處理但我們也有這個應用單純應用AI的這樣的學程所以那也跟各位報告的是因為"},{"start":12790.228,"end":12805.2,"text":"我們現在學校培養出這樣的人如果產業界不認識這些人是沒有用的所以我們也很積極像教育部現在前一陣子我們也主動的去跟企業的人資長去接觸讓企業人才說以後你要聘AI人才"},{"start":12805.8,"end":12828.734,"text":"教育部在幫大家培養哪樣的人才以後要認哪一種證書我們希望讓產業跟教育部有更緊密的連結那我們培養出來的人就會比較是業界需要的我想這一塊我們會持續在跟事發部還有跟業界做更多的交流跟接觸那另外中小學這一塊我想我們也是非常積極在做但我想中小學的AI教育這一塊我想也跟大家分享就是說"},{"start":12829.574,"end":12853.616,"text":"AI現在這個事情是這樣,就是我們整個AI的演進速度非常非常快那我們如果,現在的AI跟兩年前的AI不一樣兩年後的AI也跟現在很不一樣所以在現在這個階段其實你很難說,針對現在的AI我們整個教育做什麼樣大幅度的更動你很可能你現在做大幅度的更動結果過兩年之後,其他已經不需要了我常常舉的例子就是說"},{"start":12854.136,"end":12876.326,"text":"像如果是兩年前你用深層式AI像Mid Journey或是這些你教他深層式AI畫圖的時候你的指令如果下得不好可能那個AI沒有辦法畫出你想要的樣子所以那個時候大家講說Prompt很重要Prompt Engineer怎麼下厲害的指令才會畫出你的樣子這個能力很重要但是兩年後的今天深層式AI你教他畫圖你用白畫文"},{"start":12877.146,"end":12901.347,"text":"隨便跟他講他可以畫出你要的樣子也就是說AI的演進太快如果你用他這個過渡時期的長相你就說整個大的教育的改變要怎麼樣的改變這是一件很冒險的事情所以在這個階段教育部的方針是我們現在是要讓老師跟學生第一個讓他們熟悉AI會用AI喜歡用AI這個是我們現在這個階段"},{"start":12902.748,"end":12930.914,"text":"然後另外是讓他對AI的演進他會有興趣那我們常常在談那件事情說如果讓孩子們覺得AI是個好玩的東西的時候就好像我們在玩遊戲一樣我們要玩gamegame只要有新版的遊戲出來我們就好像很多玩家就趕快想要去下載我們現在想要讓台灣的孩子去用AI玩AI是個好玩的事情的時候那我們的國民將來以後長大之後新的AI他的接受度會很高新的AI有什麼新的功能他會"},{"start":12931.934,"end":12957.299,"text":"他會不害怕會想去碰觸他會想去了解他我想這是我們這個階段在中小學我們想要做到的事情那不只是小學還要幫他老師怎麼讓老師真能讓老師覺得用AI用在我的教學上可以幫助我這是我們在努力的地方但是我想今天很多代表也提供了很多我覺得很寶貴的意見那我想我們會帶回去教育部持續的再看這個裡面有什麼我們可以再做得更好"},{"start":12957.699,"end":12985.358,"text":"我想最後再提一件事情剛剛一直談到這個資料這件事情我想教育部接下來我們其實已經在做了所以我們有在盤點說教育部有哪些東西我們這些資料是外面很欠缺我們可以開放出來比如說我們之前就開放了本土語的語料庫因為很多業界的人或是老師他要開發一些本土語相關的應用他們現在的最大問題是他們沒有好的語料庫所以我們就教育部我們大概在去年我們就已經宣布了本土語的語料庫我們就開放出來"},{"start":12986.078,"end":13013.449,"text":"完全免費台灣任何老師任何業界他需要用這本土醫藥庫來開發出什麼應用都歡迎大家都來申請跟國教院去國教院網站可以申請下載那我們未來也會持續要看說我們有什麼樣的資源什麼樣的資料我們就開放出來讓台灣要發展這方面產業的人都可以拿來用那我想我們的這個產業的這個就會比較更加的蓬勃我想以上教育部跟大家報導到這邊謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":13017.182,"end":13024.236,"text":"好 謝謝葉秉成次長代表教育部進行回應請問是否有部會也要進行回應好好"},{"start":13031.221,"end":13049.666,"text":"那如果沒有的話呢,我想接下來就進行主席的結語。首先,今天非常感動,還是要再次感謝今天親自參與,或者是以視訊錄影的方式參加的一共13位專家學者的代表,而且都是非常具有代表性的。"},{"start":13050.206,"end":13069.016,"text":"以及今天特別列席的人工智慧法律國際研究基金會的李博士也是幫助我們許多位委員伸出我們去年的這一屆會期第一次的AI基本法草案那我想今天與會的各位專家學者立法委員以及19個部會的代表"},{"start":13070.168,"end":13098.306,"text":"今天我們都是台灣未來產業的造山者在不遠的將來AI將有可能為台灣的產業群山帶來全新的機會造出新的山峰帶來新的機會與可能其中的關鍵可能就掌握在今天與會的每個人手中我們今天所有的過程也都全程直播錄影"},{"start":13099.186,"end":13124.421,"text":"後續也都掌握在所有觀看文字記錄語音記錄以及影像記錄的所有人手中那我們今天的公聽會也是跨黨派我想在AI面前我們每個人都是Team台灣今天我們也很感動看到有非常多的共識被提出今天有非常多與會的專家都提到關於開放資料的看法"},{"start":13125.117,"end":13140.595,"text":"我特別感同身受許多產業界的許多產業界的朋友不好意思今天真的比較緊張因為底下都有非常多我非常崇拜的專家學界還有部會官員的朋友許多產業界的朋友都曾經向我反映"},{"start":13141.673,"end":13164.834,"text":"假如再不抓緊時間建立屬於台灣文化的繁體中文資料庫未來全球進入全面AI時代以後我們台灣特有的繁體中文的文化將有可能消失在地球表面甚至在人類成為跨星際物種之後消失在這個宇宙當中全面被簡體中文所取代"},{"start":13166.021,"end":13183.049,"text":"各國的立法有在強調各自保護但是西方國家並沒有我們台灣特有的檢體覆蓋繁體的問題台灣訓練資料稀缺這樣的困擾加上我們的著作權法可以說是舉世嚴格"},{"start":13183.969,"end":13205.024,"text":"資料有效利用以及限制呢相對很多公司部門呢對於需要建立主權模型有一定的看法但是對於資料的收集呢相對的還不夠積極很多人包含我的基本法草案還有其他委員的基本法草案都有提到主權都有提到主權AI"},{"start":13205.805,"end":13229.852,"text":"但是目前為止還沒有一個特定的指定的主責機構來進行資料的收集或者解套當然我們剛剛有提有看到速發部還有包含國科會的副主委還有包含我們剛剛的教育部的次長都有提到包含速發部也在開始進行了這個資料的這個收集那我想我們會非常的期待"},{"start":13230.512,"end":13258.089,"text":"否則 繁體中文的文化消亡將會是全體國人包含文化界 科技界當然也不止這些人我們會共同一起非常的擔憂因此今天與會的專家學者呢都對於建立台灣的繁體中文資料庫訓練屬於台灣的大語言模型或者模型的修改或者資料的重新訓練等等我想是具有強烈的使命感"},{"start":13258.829,"end":13286.972,"text":"我強烈的認同這樣的想法也認為政府機關應該採取積極的作為不應該讓這群有熱情有理念的專家學者產業代表只能筋疲力竭的單打獨鬥對於開放資料政府應該嚴義成立國家層級的AI訓練資料庫的可行性並且提供足夠的獎勵機制溯源的機制加解密等等的做法"},{"start":13287.852,"end":13315.914,"text":"讓除了政府機關以外國家的百工百業都有足夠的誘因與動機與政府並肩作戰一起參與這場全世界的AI競賽同時剛剛也聽到非常多與會來賓包含部會官員提到培育AI的人才我們也看到一個新的可能的做法不只培育AI的人才也用AI來培育AI或者未來更多元的人才"},{"start":13316.654,"end":13322.718,"text":"這很可能形成一個AI整個產業的教育的飛輪甚至成為整個產業的飛輪"},{"start":13346.454,"end":13365.769,"text":"把所有的文字資料把所有今天公聽會的內容呢都上到我們立法院的相關的系統當中也都會成為各位的養分也希望能成為未來AI的養分未來這部人工智慧基本法將有可能是我們台灣我們中華民國正式邁入AI時代的起點"},{"start":13366.994,"end":13393.911,"text":"目前的提案版本相信只是拋磚引玉相信今天透過我們的討論將會有更多的立委同僚關注到AI議題的重要性提出更包含更多包含更多元面向的草案版本同時也要呼籲我們的政府尤其是我們的卓榮泰院長所率領的行政院以及行政院的團隊我們希望在法案審查的過程當中可以更加的積極參與"},{"start":13395.532,"end":13412.205,"text":"也應該緊迫提出行政院草案的版本我們再次感謝今天有19個以上的部會來提供我們文件的資料發言以及列席同時我想作為本會期教育及文化委員會的召委我也將持續"},{"start":13413.266,"end":13431.813,"text":"推進法案的進度並且督促政府在AI領域扮演好領頭羊的角色我們可以帶領國家的科研界產業界教育界數位的產業我們一起在這場全球AI競賽當中爭取後發先至領先的名次謝謝"},{"start":13438.936,"end":13456.371,"text":"好 我們依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應於公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考"},{"start":13460.816,"end":13487.484,"text":"我們會把各位的發言意見以及所有的書面資料綜合歸納會編成冊那今天資料真的非常豐富也非常完整我們再次感謝所有與會來賓也感謝我們的議事人員的協助送交本院全體委員以及所有出席的與會貴賓非常感謝各位出席今天的舉辦的公聽會所提供的寶貴意見我們一定會審慎考量作為未來修法之依據謝謝大家"},{"start":13509.757,"end":13511.137,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"}]}},{"id":"160271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df7ef4cfb629bf9733d598beef862d51bb2021fb25ab74fd8350af9c3d7560ef6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:55:53 - 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初訂了以後就就沒辦法調整啦它如果有改變或成本提高其實就可以把它的藥商可以來申請那這個部分的機制也都順暢所以這個部分"},{"start":173.486,"end":197.53,"text":"這是大概我們這樣的一個機制過去來應應各種缺藥的狀況這是可能啦但是所以有時候會發生那是因為各種原因我們都會去解決有時候是說難聽一點就是要想想啊有些廠商不想做這樣子啊對這也是一個問題啊你不可能叫廠商做肥本的生意所以這個部分也都是一個問題所以你們假設預測這怎麼處理呢這當然所以那個剛剛"},{"start":201.671,"end":209.895,"text":"我跟時事長都一直在已經講過跟大家報告過好幾次我們將有兩個辦法將會在4月27號以前來公告那個就是扶植我們國內的製藥我現在不是問國內製藥我們先針對這個問題回答因為大家擔心的是缺藥問題缺藥你是要說缺國內的藥還是說缺國際的"},{"start":226.664,"end":248.907,"text":"我記得嘛我剛講了嘛就是說美國關稅因為他比如說他美中貿易大戰嘛美國的藥他的成本提高嘛提高之後那我們對藥價有控制嘛所以可能就沒有辦法買嘛沒有辦法買就會缺藥那即便是要供應也是供應給大型醫院嘛所以社區醫院跟診所或者是社區藥局會擔心嘛現在是問題在這裡嘛"},{"start":250.27,"end":277.571,"text":"而且因為剛剛部長你提到一些方法並沒有過去曾經並沒有面對到類似這樣的大型的突發事件因為這是一個比較大型的突發事件美國川普他忽然間宣布藥的關稅漲多少就是多少他忽然宣布多少就是多少你剛剛說缺藥的監測是六個月半年你的半年的監測可能沒有辦法應付他忽然出現的突發事件"},{"start":278.231,"end":285.333,"text":"所以你不能用過去的經驗來來沙盤推演未來可能遇見的狀況我現在是提醒這件事關稅進口到台灣是零關稅啦所以我們會預期它會增加是因為美國的原料美國的藥本身變貴了嘛我們就算零關稅它的藥還是變貴啦這個量是會多少那是哪一種種類我們都已經盤點"},{"start":300.976,"end":315.291,"text":"那盤點以後當然我們就會去應應嘛不是啦 總是讓人民需要不是 我問你一個問題啦你現在 你能夠預測說到時候川普他對美國 對中國的要的關稅他會提高多少你可以預測這件事嗎"},{"start":316.209,"end":331.944,"text":"他們現在講的全部的對等關稅是100多%欸那你今天美國的藥跟中國進原料他的成本是提高很多欸不是你想的這樣欸那他的藥的成本提高那麼多以後台灣這邊編的藥價就沒辦法購買嘛沒辦法購買就會缺藥嘛"},{"start":334.827,"end":360.581,"text":"那你現在你剛剛講一堆機制都是過去的經驗嘛我現在問的是說你有沒有針對這個關稅可能會造成的影響你有做因應啊因為你現在講的都是過去的機制比如說藥缺藥用六個月去監測或什麼之類平台或是你現在是如果假設藥變非常貴你是會用補助還是怎麼樣還是說健保之外要叫那些病友自費你的方案到底是什麼嘛"},{"start":361.837,"end":380.226,"text":"我們基本上那個這個因為你講的很模糊嘛對你的方案到底是什麼還是說如果說你不清楚的話請師傅回答也可以方案就是說如果成本成本提高我們健保本來就有機制來幾戶多那我們也有準備剛剛處長有提我們有那個風險基金"},{"start":385.408,"end":411.356,"text":"會一起風險的基金來補這個那另外我們還有安全準備基金所以這個部分都是可以來所以意思是什麼意思是說比如美國的藥它變高了然後第一個你會去調整調漲藥價基準是不是讓那些代理商可以買到比較貴的藥那病友就要花比較多錢去買這個藥都是健保給付健保通通會健保給付然後會補貼"},{"start":414.97,"end":436.62,"text":"全部都健保給付自費都不會受影響跟委員報告因為這些藥品裡面我們剛剛盤點過在美國以美國製造的為例的話72項的必要藥品裡頭大概有24項是癌藥那癌藥呢在我們目前是屬於重大傷病所以是不用部分負擔等於健保全部cover了"},{"start":436.9,"end":441.965,"text":"健保會宣布哈佛然後你們確定就是藥價基準會提高絕對不會因為藥品支付標準34條來調整絕對不會因為美國的藥的成本變高之後然後讓我們的買不到藥沒有藥價絕對不會"},{"start":453.277,"end":468.994,"text":"所以你認為你們在那邊確定說不會有缺藥的標準不會有缺藥確定如果這個是全球性的原料不足而缺藥那當然我們沒有辦法如果是價格的問題我先講價格的問題所以好啦 魏浦浦在這邊有做出保證絕對不會因為價格的關係"},{"start":472.037,"end":497.035,"text":"第二個我再問一個簡單問一個議題啦因為這個蠻嚴重的跟器官捐贈有關最近很多民進黨的人在網路上帶風向我想請衛福部做一個嚴正的澄清下一頁他們的邏輯是這樣就是說以來有一個羅東的不愛醫院因為他的孫女嫁給了薄瓜瓜薄熙來的兒子"},{"start":497.915,"end":523.753,"text":"然後呢好像這個羅東醫院就跟中國大陸有連結啦然後剛好羅東醫院又跟北醫有做一個器官捐贈的平台然後呢再加上剛好陳玉珍委員他們有推一個離島建設條例裡面有說要引進外國資源來解決離島的醫療問題其實外國引進外國資源不包括中國大陸嘛因為按照我們中華民國憲法外國就不包括中國大陸但是"},{"start":524.574,"end":550.484,"text":"民進黨的人就做一個連結就說你看宜蘭羅東醫院搞這個東西然後就有中國醫生進來中國醫生進來之後會不會我們的器官就移植到中國去這幾天在網路上討論很熱烈然後有一個曾經代表民進黨選過立委的一個學者他就說他收到很多媽媽的憂心都很害怕他的小朋友的器官被摘掉"},{"start":551.482,"end":561.817,"text":"我想問部長我們現在台灣包括羅東醫院包括北醫有在做這種事嗎會把我們的器官弄到中國去嗎有這種事嗎"},{"start":564.144,"end":589.145,"text":"我們的一個器官的移植的辦法相當的嚴格而且現在都是AI在做所以怎麼可能 不可能嘛但是你知道他們在網路上帶這種風向會造成什麼結果嗎你知道多少醫護人員他要勸說家屬把器官捐贈出來其實要花很多的心力因為捐贈器官其實是救人的包括賴清德總統在2015年都曾經宣導過請大家捐贈器官"},{"start":590.186,"end":616.661,"text":"我認識的一個朋友他從小心臟不好爸媽都已經簽了急救的放棄書了後來因為等到一顆心臟重獲新生了所以很多人其實在等別人捐器官在重獲新生結果最近居然為了搞政治在網路上帶這種風向請部長嚴正的斥責這樣的行為我覺得是對醫護人員很大的打擊而且是對這些等器官的病人是很大的傷害"},{"start":617.722,"end":643.213,"text":"要搞政治可以啊 為什麼要去傷害醫護咧為什麼要傷害大家健康呢作為健康主管機關的衛福部部長你看到這樣的言論你可以接受嗎我想我們都不能做沒有根據的一種傳言或者論述啦那這第一個 這樣是不好的那第二個 我們台灣的一個器官的管理是相當的嚴格的嚴格嘛 跟中國有關係嗎"},{"start":644.741,"end":667.677,"text":"沒有關係宜蘭羅東醫院跟北醫有在跟中國搞什麼器官捐贈嗎會器官移植有沒有北醫有嗎北醫以前陳時中部長都是北醫出來的北醫有搞這種事嗎有嗎在我們的管理之下應該不可能的事嘛我希望衛福部可以去查這些假消息好不好"},{"start":669.056,"end":695.102,"text":"他在破壞我們好不容易建立的制度啦影響到衛福部我希望衛福部去查這個事啊是真的很不可取啦好不好部長可以去查嗎網路上現在超多在帶這個風向請拿出破例出來叫他們不要破壞我們醫療體系啦可以嗎幫北醫幫宜蘭羅東博愛醫院幫所有辛苦的醫護人員討個公道也幫我們病人"},{"start":696.583,"end":701.708,"text":"幫我們的病人努力維繫他們的健康可以嗎好 我們一起往這方面來努力 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160262","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160262","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfda16b4f21f5fd716d598beef862d51bb1a52cf64e50924c00ec021b76d1d478f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:32:10 - 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我們請部長請邱部長"},{"start":12.785,"end":39.162,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長這個最近這幾天大家都非常的關心不論是產業或者是我們跟衛福部相關的這個業務大家都關心這個川普對等關稅這個生效之後那雖然還有90天的一個喘息的機會啦那我覺得說衛福部應該針對這一部分跟你們相關的這些產業應該也要去關心或者是"},{"start":40.102,"end":56.509,"text":"未來會不會影響到我們所有的這個藥品那我首先先請部長就今天大家關心的這個議題就是說未來我們對於我們的藥品或者是我們的這個醫療器材因為"},{"start":57.609,"end":85.458,"text":"很多譬如說我們國內自己本身也有做那有很多也是從靠國外國外進來那今天很多委員也會擔心這樣子一個關稅的問題那會不會影響到我們健保的這個用藥的穩定性那我是不是可以請教部長就是就我們這個藥品跟醫療器材的這個短中長期的發展那會有什麼樣的影響那衛福部針對這部分你們有什麼樣的因應"},{"start":87.352,"end":104.6,"text":"好是的我想謝謝委員我們第一時間在關稅的宣布以後我們就馬上衛福部所有的部門就盤點然後他們各個相關的業務裡面包括像疫苗包括藥品醫材生技醫療生技甚至連"},{"start":106.301,"end":121.517,"text":"社會長照的普及我們都去盤點到底會對民眾衝擊多少也提出應用之道如果委員需要這個資料我們也可以提供給委員來參考那至於藥品的一個"},{"start":123.039,"end":136.292,"text":"或者是醫療生技的應用制度當然我們最終的目標都希望能夠這也是全球的趨勢能夠就地生產就地行銷以避免這樣關稅的衝擊"},{"start":138.334,"end":156.699,"text":"那在對外的話當然分散市場方面也是在醫療生技方面也是相當重要也是他們現在目前在演繹的一個對策啦那至於說進口最重要是我們人民所要用的藥我們是不是讓他充分那或者是第二個建議"},{"start":158.839,"end":182.724,"text":"產業鏈讓我們的本土或協名要的產業鏈能夠更加的扎實能夠提升我們在就地生產就地行銷這個部分在食藥署跟健保署這個部分都有相關的鼓勵的一個措施我相信這樣的應用方式就可以在各方面都能夠避免這一次的衝擊就不影響人民的健康遭遇 造物權益"},{"start":183.524,"end":207.711,"text":"好 謝謝 谢谢部長那我想請教就是說之前我們在也聽到就是說很多的這個藥廠這個藥就退出台灣的市場那很多是因為這個健保給付的關係那我想請教就是說其實有很多的品項就是有的是使用替代替代的藥品或者是可能用這個低價"},{"start":208.451,"end":230.15,"text":"低價的製品也許醫材可能用比較低價的製品來取代使用那我想請教就是說對於我們之前還沒有這個對等關稅的就有這樣類似一個問題出現那現在川普提出來這個對等關稅那對於我們的這個藥品的穩定性還有未來我們這個醫材"},{"start":233.533,"end":251.051,"text":"之前很多是因為健保給付不高啦所以很多就是退出台灣的市場那像這樣子的話衛福部要怎麼去解決這樣的一個問題那另外我想請教就是說如果像中國中國他現在可能"},{"start":251.604,"end":273.082,"text":"川普這邊就是說要課一百多趴的這個稅那會不會是有一些劣質的或者是比較低價的或是比較就轉銷到其他國家轉銷到其他國家那台灣可能也是他的這個其中的一個國家之一那我想請教就是說如果有類似的這樣的一個狀況那衛福部要怎麼去因應"},{"start":274.668,"end":288.476,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,所有會到台灣的藥品都是經過食藥室,非常嚴格的審查,而且都有他的藥證等等的,所以這個部分我們會嚴格的來處理。"},{"start":289.597,"end":301.886,"text":"那至於說其實我們國際健保在有限的資源裡面我們已經做最大的努力那當然這中間怎麼樣取捨還有都是跟專家做很多的討論那這個部分是不是請時事長來看說我們這個"},{"start":306.821,"end":322.052,"text":"是不是有退出市場等等的跟我們報告我們也有在盤點這些醫材項目我們醫材大概是幾乎7000多個品項我們有盤目前真的是中國大陸是第1%非常少"},{"start":322.772,"end":342.035,"text":"所以我們現在多數都是國內產品或者是美國大概來的也不少還有歐洲這些國家都是品質上相當都不錯因為醫材我們分兩種一種是包裹式脊腹含鈉在醫療服務項目裡頭"},{"start":343.576,"end":349.721,"text":"一種是特別是像一些植入性的像這個支架或者是心臟結粒器這種我們就用特採來給付那特採我們也有它的合價的方式那麼也都會採取市場價的平均來考量所以應該我想請教就是說未來有沒有可能就是說中國這邊的"},{"start":365.212,"end":388.658,"text":"醫材也好或者是藥品或者是原料就是可能美國那邊可能他進不去那就轉銷其他國家那台灣也是其中一個那我想請教就是說未來像類似這樣的一個狀況我們要如何再嚴格的把關因為我知道很多的譬如說我們的針筒什麼很多都是可能都是來自中國"},{"start":390.908,"end":416.648,"text":"這邊跟委員回應一下就所有的醫材要進入台灣的醫藥的照護的系統都必須經過食藥署我們的有一個醫莊組針對每一項的醫材那進一步的做審核審核通過之後才能發給他所謂的許可證許可證才能夠作為進出口進來的一個憑據說的話就是不法的醫材"},{"start":417.148,"end":426.938,"text":"所以這部分呢我們每一項這個我們都會嚴格的去把關這個部分那這個部分跟委員進一步的說明以上那另外我想請教就是說我們在全球就是說醫療器材這個產業可能在2027年可能就有原本的這個400億美元會"},{"start":438.149,"end":456.244,"text":"提升到700億美元那其實我們在禮拜一那個劉建國召委有安排就是到彰化的秀傳醫院的那個微創中心有去看他們這個微創還有他們一些比較他們自己研發的一些醫療器材那其實我覺得"},{"start":457.425,"end":472.152,"text":"這個未來我們台灣的這個醫療產業其實也可以成為另外一個護國神山所以我想請教部長針對這樣子的不論是我們的藥品也好或者是我們所有的醫療器材或者是我們的醫療產業可能"},{"start":475.874,"end":495.785,"text":"大家會覺得說台灣的醫療水準非常的高甚至其他國家的人也會希望來台灣這邊可能來醫治那我想請教就是說部長針對這樣子的話我們國家要怎麼去扶植或怎麼去這個那個輔導他們這個走向國際跟國際接軌我相信這些"},{"start":502.168,"end":528.067,"text":"他們應該都走在我們政府的前面了啦只是說我們要怎麼再用政府的力量讓我們這個醫療產業我們不能至於有這麼大的一個商機我們當然也要這個也要有一個角色嘛所以我想請教部長未來我們這樣的一個醫療產業你要怎麼去扶植我們這些產業然後變成我們另一座的護國神山"},{"start":529.089,"end":539.16,"text":"謝謝委員的催省,我想我們在大概四年前左右,我們共同在未完委員會努力,讓醫藥生技的經濟部的"},{"start":544.825,"end":571.828,"text":"那個等於是獎勵這個辦的一個條例把他從智慧醫療甚至再生醫療等等的這些醫療科技這個部分給他做一個獎勵這個就是很重要的來扶植那也是以這樣的為基礎所以我們可以看到我們現在每次在醫療科技的展真的是越來越龐大但是面對這樣的當然面對未來的挑戰或者競爭我們"},{"start":574.982,"end":600.545,"text":"將來可能再也要有一些應用之道啦譬如說我們的出口是不是需要分散市場所以在國內我們絕對是扶植他啦但是我們要讓他有出路所以我們也連結到很多東南亞甚至歐洲讓他們有更有市場那這個部分大概我想再秀傳這個去看他的"},{"start":601.266,"end":620.439,"text":"它這個是一個微創的教學中心我們上次我想委員已經去過第二次了都會深深的impressive我們台灣的醫療的科技這麼的好醫療的技術那麼的好教了很多國外的學生這個都是我們"},{"start":622.12,"end":643.31,"text":"所以像我們上次去訪視的,這是第二次啦修傳說已經開了四十天,也不能說立法委員可以看就是說我們現在,現在你又死就又起,表示說真的很重視他們的一個醫療科技的發展還是醫療技術的推廣那這個部分我想"},{"start":644.71,"end":669.839,"text":"在台灣的政府是一定全力在支持這個部分不曉得兩位有沒有補充委員這邊做特別的補充因為台灣的ICT的產業科技產業非常的進步加上臨床醫療產業所以我們結合了智慧的醫療的產業所以智慧醫療醫材的部分我們成立智慧醫療的研發的輔導的機制那在我們的"},{"start":671.64,"end":685.047,"text":"施藥署這邊呢 持續在推展 那目前進來呢 也有合可的許可證的持續的增加 已經有上百家的一個合可有關於人工智慧醫材的 這部分是我們持續推展的一個部分 以上說明好 先生我們看到這個"},{"start":688.79,"end":716.208,"text":"這個川普提出來對等關稅其實我覺得說危機也許是一個轉機也是一個契機啦那我覺得很多企業他是走在我們政府前面的那當然就是說如果要把醫療產業成為另一座護國神山的話應該也是政府要有一些角色來扶植那有很多譬如說現在川普也希望說能夠投資美國那其實如果可以在我們的這個產業醫療產業如果投資美國"},{"start":718.349,"end":735.563,"text":"能夠取得他們的這個認證其實應該也可以打開其他國家的市場所以我覺得這也許是一個很好的方式也不一定所以我希望就是說我們衛福部在這一次應該要有一些角色然後扶植我們的這些醫療產業好不好"},{"start":737.344,"end":754.371,"text":"不管是方委員剛剛你提的,以及剛剛王正熙委員提的,就是我們危機就是轉機第一就是我們台灣人的水準,台灣人的氣魄尤其台灣醫療科技的水準,我們真的要氣魄去把它做,不但是國內做好,也要推導到國際的一個紅艷這樣子好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df333cd71795589527d598beef862d51bb2021fb25ab74fd83235d1795ffdf2ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:44:56 - 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因為沒有列在食品原料整合平台"},{"start":147.947,"end":162.813,"text":"所以它連有機驗證也沒有辦法進行我們看一下你們的食品原料整合平台的查詢系統我以老葉為例輸入進去它會出現未確認安全性尚不得使用之原料"},{"start":163.833,"end":192.02,"text":"所以呢很多的key進去甚至連資料都沒有連都零那我們來看一下它的一個原因就是因為這個申請作業指引這個所謂的非傳統性食品原料的定義它是提到說台灣境內無實用歷史經驗者然後呢是一個排除條件僅有某特定區域或族群之消費者實用經驗它是被排除的喔它是有歧視性的一個意思喔所以呢經過反應之後"},{"start":193.2,"end":208.926,"text":"也很感謝這一次出來的一個草案114年3月13號有你們有修正把非傳統性食品原料已經改成新興食品原料安全性評估作業原則那目前是在預告期間"},{"start":210.186,"end":224.044,"text":"但是呢就是有把那個某特定區域族群我剛剛講那個比較歧視性的排除他現在呢已經把它就是改為一個名稱叫新興食品原料但是這個當中第一個他是要1999年12月31日以前"},{"start":227.108,"end":245.802,"text":"也就是25年前了那為什麼要這樣我是不太了解但是這個沒有關係但是我比較在意的是你食用方式與傳統食用經驗不同則那都是創意料理啊那創意料理怎麼辦因為你們裡面有規定例如限定要用先煮"},{"start":246.883,"end":260.341,"text":"還規定說要怎麼煮所以那個創意料理怎麼辦那另外是說無足夠安全食用經驗但是我之前就是一直提因為你們這個之前的作業指引申請你們都說是要收集國際間"},{"start":262.003,"end":282.301,"text":"就是國際的期刊的研究資料可是你們的國際期刊大多為歐美日啊問題我們是南島民族啊你們有沒有採用南島民族的實用經驗你們好像沒有採納那國內的研究算不算數像這個PPT上面的這是國內的野菜學校一個老師叫吳雪月"},{"start":282.901,"end":311.734,"text":"你看他出版的書啊那我們來翻譯一下喔他的書喔不但有實用經驗還有研究還有食譜喔我們來貼印進去木鱉子共有零筆搜尋結果他裡面有一道叫做紙被草搜尋進去零筆搜尋結果這些都不合法都必須要收到罰單都不能推廣所以呢更麻煩這一圖走不動的時候是要做什麼呢要做"},{"start":313.19,"end":340.947,"text":"進行一 90天餵食毒性試驗二 基因毒性試驗三 致肌畸形試驗那誰來做試驗而且經費很貴每一項需要500萬那我們這樣一項一項各個急迫曠日廢食又要經費龐大如果要走這一圖根本誰有辦法哪一個廚師有辦法哪一個公司有辦法所以這個部分我還是希望就是再一次訴求"},{"start":341.607,"end":360.562,"text":"因為你們是3月到5月預告三個月嘛目前正在預告期間那我是希望說我們衛福部跟農業部跟園民會是不是應該全面的來重新盤點這些食品原料整合查詢平台然後希望能夠納入各民族的食用經驗啦"},{"start":361.383,"end":379.991,"text":"那第二個就是說希望這個部分能夠參採國內研究跟南島地區的實用經驗來認定原住民的傳統食材那請教一下部長這樣可以嗎謝謝委員這麼重要的一個我決定能真的非常感動的一個"},{"start":382.018,"end":393.892,"text":"催省跟訴求這個部分其實我們一直在在針對這樣的一個方向在一直都在前進中那所以比較具體的現在做法是不是請食藥署江署長好謝謝謝謝署長謝謝委員這邊做一個補充"},{"start":397.035,"end":419.977,"text":"我們針對所謂原住民食材我們其實不只是原住民其實不同的比如說客家的 閩南的等等不管任何一種我們是尊重原型的食材這件事情其實沒有什麼問題的這件事情特別提到跨部會的部分我們其實直接的收集跟各部會之間的協作我們會持續的進進"},{"start":421.078,"end":435.066,"text":"第三個是特別提到的我們在食品原料整合平台裡面查詢的特別特別提它不是正念表列它其實在食物裡面有一個很重要的原則叫做GRASSGenerally recognized as safe就是整體來"},{"start":436.347,"end":458.684,"text":"我們前輩前輩一直傳下來都算是安全的我知道所以在這種前提之下我們特別特別強調不以正面表列不是說以上面沒有的就成為裁罰但是地方政府搞不清楚就是會開放這部分我們會特別特別的就要加強的這樣的宣導所以我希望能夠改善你們的那個平台輸入的那個平台"},{"start":459.284,"end":482.739,"text":"我們在這個部分會把更多的資訊能夠導入以上謝謝主長那再給我一分鐘就是還有一個我很關心的問題就是謝謝部長因為我長期以來其實我家是沒有洗腎患者我們親戚間也沒有但是我在原鄉部落我很心疼這些洗腎患者因為他們很辛苦根本沒有辦法找到正職"},{"start":484.042,"end":497.91,"text":"然後呢會變成家裡的依賴人口很辛苦所以我一直很關心的是他們有一些是居住在深山我以司馬庫斯來講他要到竹東他最近的就是竹東要開車三個小時"},{"start":499.611,"end":521.99,"text":"然後再加上坐的時間跟回來的時間一整天很辛苦週車勞頓所以我一直很關心說可不可以怎麼樣去幫助他們那園民會那邊很謝謝他們有做安心上工就是讓他們可以在鄉裡面部落裡面做一些簡單的工作那衛福部這邊我也很感謝因為我有看到你們說要把"},{"start":523.331,"end":540.237,"text":"居家血月透析要納入健保給付了而且會在最快5月上路我非常的高興肯定但是我很擔心我們很多原鄉的病人看得到吃不到用不到為什麼因為他的要求很高病人及家屬要經過8到12週的訓練"},{"start":543.338,"end":568.174,"text":"那當然我覺得訓練是一定要的而且那些水用的水啊等等應該都需要規格很高這個我都知道但是我在這個地方是說可不可以把好事做盡是不是可以考量有一些特別偏遠的像納瑪夏像這種司馬庫斯這種特別遠的其實就可以在衛生所有衛生所他們有正式的場域有合格的護理人員等等讓他們能夠就近部長您覺得如何"},{"start":572.15,"end":596.877,"text":"我覺得這個方向是值得研議的啦因為我以前多年來也負責新竹縣的醫療像竹東那邊提供的像司馬庫斯各方面的那個都真的我的朋友在竹東服務常常要仿仿是一家第二家就要過另外一個山頭所以表示說這個真的醫療資源是相當的辛苦"},{"start":597.717,"end":622.381,"text":"那相關的一個當然要我們怎麼樣去符合醫療法然後在健保上面給他鼓勵這部分那個時事長你有沒有抱歉的好 謝謝跟委員說明因為這個居家透析這件事情是全球的趨勢這個對剛剛您提到的這民眾的便利性還有他這個透析的舒適度其實是比較高的"},{"start":623.181,"end":646.996,"text":"但是我們現在開放的是在家裡面至於在衛生所實施等於是說他家裡面沒有人然後他就必須要到衛生所來做那因為衛生所是屬於醫療機構那他有一些設置標準的要求所以能不能夠做透析我想我們來研究看看所以我希望可不可以在兩個星期內做一個報告可以嗎好謝謝署長謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝部長好謝謝吳理老師的發言也謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df502273b7daef952bd598beef862d51bb1a52cf64e50924c07a999415d811f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:23:16 - 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謝謝主席我請我們部長 邱部長請邱部長還有我們石崇良石署長"},{"start":16.834,"end":18.115,"text":"蘇書長 委員好部長好 我先順著剛才楊瓊怡委員講的 我覺得我們確實不需要跟著川普隨之起舞 我覺得"},{"start":32.425,"end":34.546,"text":"WHO WHA這樣的一個國際的這個舞台我們不要放棄所以我覺得剛才那個部長的態度我是覺得是正確的肯定的但是呢針對我們這一次美國要準備對藥品也要可以關稅我們現在雖然不曉得稅率是多少"},{"start":54.952,"end":65.121,"text":"但是我覺得衛福部到現在為止的態度我認為是掩飾太平事實上是偏於事實好譬如說在第一時間我們的林靜儀次長他直接講說這就變成衛福部冒號囉無直接衝擊而且反而對台有利我不曉得為什麼次長常常因為我們這個次長是常常在失言的到底對台灣有利什麼"},{"start":83.416,"end":89.779,"text":"到底沒有衝擊什麼如果一個次長連功課都不做就直接這樣的粉飾太平這完全是錯誤的態度因為珍珠後面我們不管是我們的醫界我們的藥商我們的代理商我們的藥師大家所反映出來的根本不是沒有衝擊而且對台灣本來就有一些影響為什麼我們今天會有專題報告"},{"start":111.849,"end":128.545,"text":"不過我覺得部長您說沒有發生的事情不要擔心我覺得這個態度也是不對因為今天大家都鎖定說未來缺藥會不會是癌症又要會不會是抗生素那對於現在很多的癌症病患病友來說那麼"},{"start":130.527,"end":152.308,"text":"他們可能還在服用就是還在療程之中老師說啦 部長你剛剛講說還沒有發生的事情不要擔心我如果是癌症病患或者我是他的家屬我會非常非常擔心第一個我會擔心會不會缺藥開玩笑 怎麼會不擔心呢第二我擔心這個藥會不會變得很貴"},{"start":155.871,"end":159.234,"text":"第三個我擔心健保的給付夠不夠這都是一般民眾針對這樣的一個衝擊他們會想要問的事情所以部長我還是奉勸我覺得衛福部要直接的跟我們人民說真話這樣的衝擊確實並不操之在我們"},{"start":177.369,"end":184.15,"text":"那麼美國發起風來我怎麼曉得他到時候他要課多少關稅但是我覺得這個態度是不對的接下來我想請問一下剛才有特別提到因為對台灣來說我們事實上在藥品的部分我們是逆差我們的貿易逆差是48.2億美元"},{"start":202.754,"end":204.075,"text":"因為台灣藥品非常的仰賴從國外進口所以現在包含藥師公會這個理事長也說了說藥廠在台灣的利潤過低所以容易會出現缺藥潮"},{"start":218.306,"end":234.599,"text":"那我想請問一下我們的健保署的署長因為你也說你們有去盤點我覺得這是正確的比如說我們對美國進口的藥品的項目有幾項佔我們的健保支出是多少是一成左右"},{"start":235.319,"end":258.557,"text":"好所以呢我想請問一下如果在美國針對好藥品課徵關稅而導致我們的進口的用藥的價格提升的話那麼我們健保會完全的吸收嗎我覺得這是很多的病患關心的事情我可以請教署長"},{"start":259.699,"end":274.519,"text":"在組長講以前我先謝謝委員的指教其實在川普的關稅宣布以後我們當然所有的衛務部所有的司署都針對他們的業務做了很多的盤點跟應用之道這是正確的"},{"start":275.1,"end":286.032,"text":"那我們在缺藥這個部分因為一開始就大家擔心缺藥這會造成一個不好的一個現象因為我們目前的確的一個韌性是相當的夠我們從那個監測到平台你是不是擔心大家認為會缺藥然後進而造成豚藥"},{"start":296.323,"end":316.405,"text":"當然我們也不希望這樣子去做啦所以我的意思有時候他下的標並不是我講的話我的講的話是說我們已經做好準備所以請大家不用擔心這個我先說明一下啦謝謝委員的指教我想我的態度一向都是基安思維"},{"start":317.526,"end":323.549,"text":"對 要居安思維 然後跟民眾說真話絕對是 我們就是照顧民眾的健康當然給民眾的都是最真實的理解但是不要造成無謂的惶恐 這樣也不好我知道 我剛才問部長說你是不是擔心因為擔心大家說缺藥缺藥缺藥我們很多講缺藥之後就會出現囤積但是如果過去也有一些經驗囤積一些貨品的時候我們也應該也有一些非常的手段"},{"start":347.299,"end":364.83,"text":"那個委員過去在防疫規劃面也都幫忙我們意見很多也知道這個大概民眾的怎麼安撫給民眾真實的狀況是很重要的事情好那我請問那個署長就是大家擔心未來第一個大家擔心缺藥第二擔心價格過"},{"start":366.311,"end":385.724,"text":"提高那第三個那我們未來健保還是不是照常給付也就是說屬於我們健保給付的用藥裡面如果未來因為這一次的這個關稅的關係而調高價格我們的健保藥要怎麼樣因應好跟委員報告謝謝您的關心那我們盤點過在健保給付的14000多項裡頭屬於美國製造的大概是176項金額大概一年大概在200億左右啦"},{"start":393.709,"end":412.035,"text":"那這裡面我們再比對的必要品項就必要藥品的話是72項這72項的健保的申報大概在84億所以這個規模我們大概已經列出來了所以未來如果萬一那麼發生有這個成本上漲那麼藥商他是可以依照我們的這個"},{"start":414.016,"end":437.922,"text":"藥價支付標準我們藥品支付標準裡頭的第34條裡面就特別針對罕藥跟這個所謂的特殊藥品就是會沒有可替代性的藥品可以來提這個調升這個藥價所以有這個機制存在至於在費用的部分呢我們在健保的總額裡面特別有一個特別其他部門裡頭有一塊叫做非預期風險的這個預算的調控那我們是編了20億"},{"start":442.703,"end":461.829,"text":"那當然如果不足的部分那麼我們會再繼續的爭取那我們目前的健保的安全準備金也還有1600億可以緊急的支應然後再來跟行政院爭取額外的所以剛才書長講的重點就是非預期風險你現在的準備金是20億那所以因為現在行政院不是在盤點整個去因應"},{"start":464.47,"end":468.131,"text":"整個的這個對等關稅所造成的衝擊我覺得這部分你們應該報到行政院要給我們一些團性我在這邊的質詢其實最主要的目的就是在我們所有的病患他就是可能這些都是他的長期用藥那麼到時候他如果因為關稅關係也是被預期的這個這些因素的影響"},{"start":486.676,"end":503.125,"text":"那麼不要因此而造成我們這些病患沉重的負擔好不好所以這個部分就拜託可能要你們就要報到行政院因為行政院現在可能都是針對外銷廠商的一些紓困嘛好或者勞工的紓困好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王宏偉委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"16596","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16596","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea9d3c58e6035bf0894eb3296cd325b2f44af80a8cb003b9ba4bb327fc9bda7fd95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-16T08:31:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-16T11:20:00+08:00","duration":10089,"影片長度":"02:48:09","委員發言時間":"08:31:51 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請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1996.363,"end":2019.991,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期內政委員會第九次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年四月十日星期四下午一時三十八分至一時五十五分地點紅樓二零二會議室出席委員麥玉珍委員等十四人練習委員鍾嘉斌委員等七人練習官員內政部常務次長吳唐安記相關人員法務部參事廖江縣財政部國庫署工股管理組科長洪培明"},{"start":2020.911,"end":2047.089,"text":"衛生福利部社會救助及社公司檢任視察王彥琴行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員李培元主席牛召集委員許庭報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續審查委員丁學忠等16人委員張家俊等29人拟據委員劉建國等16人委員徐宇貞等18人及委員羅廷偉等17人分別拟據殯葬管理條例第21條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":2047.669,"end":2070.07,"text":"审查委员洪梦凯等17人及委员鲁明哲等17人16人分别拟据殡葬管理条例第21条之一条文修正草案决议殡葬管理条例第21条之一条文修正草案等7案第21条之一修正通过条文修正如下第21条之一个指辖市县市政府列册之低收入户中低收入户使用指辖市县市或城市政事"},{"start":2070.931,"end":2095.775,"text":"或鄉鎮市所經營或委託民間經營代理代管之下列公立殯葬設施免收使用管理相關費用一火化廠二骨灰海存放設施前項骨灰海存放設施免費之標準由直轄市縣市政府定之二並按審查完據領據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推請牛召集委員許庭於院會討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":2098.545,"end":2118.381,"text":"好請問各位委員上次會議意思錄有無錯誤或遺漏好那意思錄確定那我們繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":2122.564,"end":2150.886,"text":"本日議程所列報告事項合併詢答我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員張志倫委員王美惠委員黃婕委員蘇巧惠委員我們客委會主委、股秀會主委"},{"start":2153.407,"end":2175.5,"text":"好 我們財團法人客家公共傳播基金會的董事長陳邦振還有客家電視台的台長向聖妍好那我們接下來請客家委員會股主任委員報告請簡短"},{"start":2186.933,"end":2197.584,"text":"主席 各位議員 大家好 各位同事來到VNV 內處合格VNV的業務來做報告部委會發展有兩大風向 第一是支持合作合好成分第二是努力達成共合的反應113年 全國合格日 第100"},{"start":2209.062,"end":2216.267,"text":"用槍眼來做主 為主來判論壇 同時呢槍眼參議會主席來判的七十三年次 七十三重視的英文法庭 讓我今年我們企圖的重範學中 學中提供重申 希望在入選 本議選的槍中議員 每一年一百萬的創業補助金 建立槍中議員返鄉支持的體內"},{"start":2237.661,"end":2241.386,"text":"人們的經驗也提拔參加台北的國際署站來推廣國土基盤接下来就跟大家報告哈佛市的重點時針,提及在延續推動促進主流法"},{"start":2254.64,"end":2262.306,"text":"永續創新客家文化我們持續推動各個客家發展計劃在當天在漢堡的行政院作為中央普惠堆客家相關市政的建基我們持續推動提防的客家發展計劃在擴展體提防業業文化永續發展"},{"start":2282.521,"end":2289.363,"text":"聽到他們的說話,我們也將強硬的意見建立在不同的平台今年初,在成立第一屆強硬諮詢VMV在國台也將強硬公共答應交通的機制第三,在數位科技運用部分主要是在我們行業的推廣,推廣經濟部的懲罰"},{"start":2311.77,"end":2318.554,"text":"他向苗栗學院在113年製作讀研的主題課程本期一線的顧問研員來送課公務的行業課程我們在學徒方面能夠改善自己的思考、名出、胖額來翻譯成行業實驗權來增加行業學徒的長途"},{"start":2339.788,"end":2347.956,"text":"此外,我們在行業實質部分內擴大行業實質的培訓,透過輔助太學來開設各種文化的課程,並在各種文化體育和教育發展。"},{"start":2358.956,"end":2365.039,"text":"在內,我們也正經在行政議員使用的機會來懲罰民眾的共和的意識行政議員認證保養費除了19歲以下民眾不是保養費以外,國泰體、全國的國營業員、教育營業員及軍警營業員都有另一部署的範圍"},{"start":2382.908,"end":2398.138,"text":"再透过行业家庭的法律来增进人民共和国的用意感。其次,我们会来强化各种的经济能量,提升生涯的竞争力。"},{"start":2399.696,"end":2405.685,"text":"去年我們頒發的代表洛杉磯學總領養育團養育証件今年要發行核卡幣本頁的創企學總提供移民的規劃本學館營所的費用"},{"start":2415.299,"end":2435.176,"text":"再來,我們享受各種主體的遊行,本國泰的各自的年間度我們提供的各種遊行精髓、藥材和北泰各種品牌,送到天上、天下的戰術平台本國內外的遊客,都在各種地方參與旅行"},{"start":2442.282,"end":2447.929,"text":"此外,今年,國會會與自由茶協會進行反對共同體制、浪漫對三選戰及美歷選六對戰,大規模的合格國際聯盟研討。"},{"start":2458.411,"end":2471.119,"text":"以及在核食品牌部分,我們在天衣也能做很多料理,非常黑心的食材,例如有些廚師參與過節的賽事。第二,我們在國泰,有種沖繩的飯金洋蔥,比方說大蔥,有種沖繩法交流中心,在石鹹,有種核糖的開釀。"},{"start":2484.888,"end":2509.142,"text":"目前全国有20年包括的特殊民国评定定甚至认识的平衡和各种的发展再来推动各种的法庭级本要求证的图书公司去审计在六大地区特别是北部地区中央有14个案例在核心下来"},{"start":2511.003,"end":2515.985,"text":"在這裏,在歷史空間部分,我們保存了各種歷史的脈絡,從天方上成立的輔導團,來聽述歷史記憶,保存下來。"},{"start":2527.914,"end":2549.789,"text":"第六,我們推動強硬的公共參議,持續與巴黎縣市推動學大文化的發展計劃,以及跟目前的白宮政府站除了有我們陸有同路以外和增加的強硬,"},{"start":2558.895,"end":2582.017,"text":"推动强硬参与批评议文的管法,我们同协议院教育部与人民区共同来判断,让我们的强硬议语服务员以及我们的规划判断,让我们的学校校长教育员来提供学校校长的国际思想和采取的管法。"},{"start":2584.234,"end":2597.963,"text":"再來,我們在醫生體年代,生涯的盤理,兩人應用全球學及文化分析,在生涯的盤理,兩人應用學及貢獻獎,特別學及師傅專業獎項的表揚,來表揚去年後的青春認識。第六點,"},{"start":2607.829,"end":2622.274,"text":"我們要發展合作的英文能量 去強行合作文化的加持強行的送食規範 邀請無窮人士隊來展現出舒服我們在台灣"},{"start":2624.275,"end":2636.768,"text":"另外,在香港,強硬為主體判斷白衣人的白衣人避嫌,共有60多位公司部門判斷香港人的法律。"},{"start":2640.911,"end":2646.932,"text":"在內,我們求願在12月12月12月的判例和交流規模之下目前,到求願日子已經突破1萬人參與,這等於我們提交的部分創作最多認輸、推輸也最多的營業。113年的首當夕在頭營,但其內營是有設備創建。"},{"start":2669.016,"end":2683.149,"text":"第一,在養殖營部分,我們可以與天使合資植博和養殖作品第二,在國際外的國土中心,我們可以持續進行"},{"start":2690.095,"end":2697.098,"text":"在這裏,我們也希望有強硬的英文意識和英文學在邁向國際我們在推辦和英文學作家創作計劃"},{"start":2708.186,"end":2718.455,"text":"又跟國際台北無法公園合作出版,推廣要求區議員的替代參加台北國際署站累計現場參觀人員有6萬人員,名錄中有9萬人員"},{"start":2727.362,"end":2734.307,"text":"來參與我們在營業思想部分行業主流的思想、用業成分是我們的目標三月十五日張潘赫在高雄的旅行中心舉行演唱會也會跟台灣幾個太平的營業者持續合作"},{"start":2756.155,"end":2769.753,"text":"為了提供強硬反響,我們有請三位強硬基督徒的寶土基督徒的生命故事,為了重返他們的期望"},{"start":2772.777,"end":2781.227,"text":"在香港除了台三線外,陸對台九線,我們一起投入、投稿和洋相的部分來跟大家收集"},{"start":2793.26,"end":2819.478,"text":"在台灣各種所有的有關核桿文化和年齡的故事再來我們南北核桿文化延期保有出權文化保存的也要加持故事有文革方面的加油研究、電訊、教育、英文等等推行核桿文化的推廣和產生"},{"start":2823.54,"end":2846.308,"text":"以及我們跟國際 國際 國際有關的保護署在一起合作 交流以及跟文化資產部署跟調查的工作在一起 到今年一百二十四年為止 入床的感染數有一萬六千兩千還有為了參加國際的"},{"start":2851.279,"end":2855.742,"text":"經濟戰費提升和博物館的能見度不僅對國際、對國內也強有我們採取的職業合作推出先鋒隊16站和T-62陸隊運動費的營運站"},{"start":2872.417,"end":2899.077,"text":"採取民眾和學童的因素合作最後我要感謝本費、創企、支持和創司提供合作的發展包括親自教育、搶眼的營造的培育也都在保存和研修和文化創業的力量推動和合作"},{"start":2900.81,"end":2912.316,"text":"創新企劃希望分享的強中研的支持力量做得成就其他也成就沙飛我們會用勇氣創新 求強求好為主體持續推動國家希望工廠"},{"start":2918.493,"end":2928.795,"text":"第三,我們在問議的六十幾年中,我們鼓勵提前,也感謝提前的堅持和努力的行程,我們會持續地投入家庭和社會的推廣。希望接下来,做得跟大家共同走一條好路。以上報告,簡單報告,請國民委員職高,祝福大家身體健康,萬事以儀,順利向大家安持下去。"},{"start":2961.189,"end":2987.483,"text":"好 其他單位的報告請委員自行參酌並刊登公報那現在進行選答委員諮詢前原例做幾點宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員五分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘非本會委員五分鐘上午十點半截止發言登記今天就不處理臨時提案各位有沒有意見"},{"start":2989.161,"end":3007.388,"text":"沒有齁好那我們現在進行詢答請登記第一位的蘇巧惠委員發言好謝謝主席我們請主委好請主委"},{"start":3012.847,"end":3014.929,"text":"我們覺得地方上真的是很不錯廣受歡迎的政策就是我們的博工照庫站"},{"start":3031.403,"end":3036.746,"text":"主委現在博工照護站的發展情況如何?現在的數量有多少?這幾年有增加嗎?感謝委員 白宮照護站的學費體體放鬆有關從早上到早上的一間養護本農園及種植 做得有更快樂的氣氛 更健康的氣氛"},{"start":3053.174,"end":3057.357,"text":"目前今年556宗被投擲 今年517宗被投擲 明年都省種沒錯 那我看妳看這個妳剛剛說到的博工照護站目標很清楚嘛 就有健康促進 親迎共榮 老幼同樂那甚至它的健康 它的對象健康雅健康的客庄銀髮族"},{"start":3076.611,"end":3079.173,"text":"都現在會以博工照護站做據點這我們覺得非常的樂見那我也想請問主委您剛剛說這個政策既然廣受歡迎那誰可以來申請什麼樣的資格可以來申請成為或者設立博工照護站聽人家的提防"},{"start":3095.828,"end":3122.801,"text":"只要他那個西籍據點他就可以去申請阿提歐哥菸絲政府主體是地方政府嘛申請的主體是地方政府但條件的話看過去我們看到這個條件的部分其實不是不是條件的部分你看你114年度推廣博工照護站的實施計畫我也很高興看到你過去是只有在客家文化重點發展區"},{"start":3123.962,"end":3133.906,"text":"所屬的地方政府可以來申請嘛這就是所謂的客庄有客庄的地方政府那你這一次呢是首次名列把這個客家社區也條列到了這個申請的文字當中那客家社區顯然就是跟客庄客家文化重點發展區是不太一樣的了嘛對不對所以是放寬這是一個放寬"},{"start":3149.031,"end":3160.355,"text":"好所以我們現在有客庄的地方政府有客舍的地方政府都可以來申請好那也就是你剛剛說的可能就是因為這個條件放寬了所以您剛剛也說了這幾年的據點不斷的增加因為客庄的話是以鄉鎮區和人口的狀況來說所以我們這麼幾年來其實客庄不太有變動啦就是那幾個鄉鎮可是客舍也一直在增加"},{"start":3175.501,"end":3195.906,"text":"所以連帶著我們的博工照護站因為可以申請的人多了嘛所以通過的也就多了我這個邏輯到這裡都沒有問題吧某問題完全衝好沒有問題來那接下來就是我要請問的主委你知道我們新北新北現在有幾個客庄有幾個客舍有幾個博工照護站嗎"},{"start":3197.346,"end":3208.732,"text":"目前 客庄 有嗎 我們新北有客庄嗎有有有 客庄 我們新北有客庄英國可以說 不是整個區是客庄 它是一個小庄頭我們年輕人 超過50%的小庄頭 它就是黑庄所以你的鄉鎮的話 是用什麼樣的小庄頭"},{"start":3218.737,"end":3227.002,"text":"你的樁頭是用什麼樣的形證詞春禮春禮的部分的話來…我們來看一下你的這春禮的部分是褐色"},{"start":3228.666,"end":3243.376,"text":"你的客庄 客家文化重點發展區的話是客家人口三分之一以上 鄉鎮市區所以你的意思是說包括市 包括區也都可以包括市 包括區 它那個三分之一以上三分之一嘛 其中那個客家重點發展區我們今天 從維園也過程中 我們今天翻譯國台 國台的那一體 媒體的那個三分之一的客家"},{"start":3256.385,"end":3256.966,"text":"我替你做了一個整理我們的這個客庄和客舍"},{"start":3273.069,"end":3301.995,"text":"它的申請條件它的認定條件其實有兩個嘛一個是區域範圍就是您剛剛在說的地理狀態嘛客庄的話是鄉鎮市區客舍的話是用村裡但是會沒有問題嘛對不對然後下面是客家人口比例這個比例的話一個是三分之一的話這麼高額的話那它是客庄那你剛剛說客家人口三成以上或講客語的長者二分之一以上這個是你們認定客舍的條件不是這樣嗎"},{"start":3303.933,"end":3317.5,"text":"這個部分沒有問題嘛所以在這兩個條件之下我剛剛的問題是問你說新北市有客庄或客舍嗎據我們的了解其實因為新北市的客家社團客家人口雖然有67萬人"},{"start":3321.943,"end":3338.182,"text":"但是他非常的散居他非常的散居所以這種散居的生活型態回歸到後面剛剛的認定方式我們一共就是新北市的三峽區的五料理可以被符合認定 客設他不要說客裝了 他連客設"},{"start":3340.666,"end":3352.071,"text":"客舍都是非常對我們來講散居的太嚴重所以很難認定嘛所以我剛剛第一個問你說新北有客庄嗎你跟我講有我是非常疑惑我心中有問號那我們連客舍都這麼難了就這麼一個而已啊所以這是我們新北的狀況好那所以我再問你"},{"start":3359.955,"end":3366.738,"text":"主委我們新北有博工照護站嗎這樣下去看他做的會省錢但是沒有省錢因為我們可以申請的就一共只有一個村裡而已啊所以這個村裡沒有去申請的話當然新北的博工照護站零啊"},{"start":3378.142,"end":3396.508,"text":"0啊 這麼好的政策最多客家人口我們僅次於桃園啦我們67萬是僅次於桃園是全國第二多客家人的地方耶是最多人口的直轄市客家社人口第二多的直轄市結果我們一站博工照護站都沒有你不覺得這個狀況很奇怪嗎"},{"start":3398.809,"end":3400.29,"text":"所以我們會認為這個問題到底是宣傳不夠力讓你剛剛比如說你剛剛自己也在這邊照就是說我的申請條件我們是要客庄要客社才能來申請但是我們的現在條件有放寬"},{"start":3415.504,"end":3426.369,"text":"你講了很多 可是看起來我幫你整理成表格之後沒有啊 我們新北能夠符合的很少啊 少之又少啊所以我們連申請條件都過不了關了更不要說成立了嘛 對不對主委 所以如果是這樣 我認為 我也要求您是不是應該再想辦法來調整去申請博工照護站的條件"},{"start":3443.617,"end":3449.94,"text":"讓散居人口市的地區也有機會加入這麼好的政策主委你的意見我們回到剛剛第一頁照顧他的目的的那個部分"},{"start":3459.304,"end":3479.456,"text":"你可以看到嘛既然它的目的是這麼好的狀況的話其實我認為正因為我們是散居的生活型態所以如果能夠多幾個博工照護站的話它就可以成為地方的新文化傳承中心啊新文化中心對我們客家來講其實才是真正重要的事情你可以規模縮小嘛然後預算"},{"start":3482.137,"end":3498.683,"text":"預算看是大家均分還是怎麼樣狀況不過我覺得你現在很可惜因為你的預算現在被刪動這麼多光是博工造戶站就被刪了700萬了我看現在今年的新增的造戶站新增的造戶站大概也都必須預算要減少了吧主委今年的博工造戶站預算有減少嗎有減少 每個站點平均減少17%"},{"start":3504.745,"end":3508.528,"text":"是啊 我們就已經在少經費了 這樣煽動下去連博工照護站經費都沒有 更不要輪到我們來申請了所以主委我明確的在這裡要求您對散居型態的如新北市應該怎麼增設博工照護站提出規劃 我希望在會期結束前能夠有您的想法 各位會的想法 可以嗎"},{"start":3527.54,"end":3528.301,"text":"好請張志倫委"},{"start":3553.288,"end":3580.965,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早是有請谷主委請主委總理也好好謝謝谷主委安子森那我相信今天是我們這個客委會的質詢那很多相信很多委員針對博工照護站有諸多的問題那本期是認為博工照護站就我的理解是一個非常好的政策"},{"start":3581.485,"end":3602.785,"text":"他主要就是讓我們剛剛主委特別有講的C級的照護點讓一些長輩跟有機會到一些我們的這些聚會的社區的聚會中心然後大家一起來互動照顧他們的身體那麼希望說這個課語的部分一定要能傳承那大家會講課語我們很多的"},{"start":3605.107,"end":3631.155,"text":"照護站的部分那也可以帶他們的孫子這個孫女然後一起來讓我們的客羽可以發展那其實大家都有講到說現在這個博工照護站多設於這個客家文化重點發展區那我本席在的這個新北市是屬於這個非重點發展區那所以意思就是說新北市有67萬的人口那剛剛也提到說新北市這個過去以來比較"},{"start":3634.056,"end":3656.208,"text":"有現在只有一個這個依照現在的新的規定來講只有一個三峽區五寮里可以是符合設這個客家社區所以說雖然說現在我們有把這個重點發展區以及非重點發展區多一些可以設這個博工造物站的一些的據點可是現在新北市的部分還是沒有辦法來協助那我再簡單講一下"},{"start":3657.549,"end":3681.287,"text":"那以這個重點發展區來講的話是這個三分之一以上的客家人口就可以來設立那非重點發展區現在我們是把它從鄉鎮市區把它再下放成一些村裡可以來使用可是現在的問題點是說我們還是要有超過50%甚至是比過去重點發展區更多比例的人口數才能設這個"},{"start":3683.348,"end":3691.134,"text":"這個不公照護站那這樣子造成新北市有點困難來設立是不是可以請教主委是不是可以鬆綁既有的50%的語言使用門檻"},{"start":3694.075,"end":3696.457,"text":"感謝委員的關心 要補充我們肥豪及同事有請鑽研學生在幾個年頭可能在總委員所提及屬委員所提及要封款 也要判斷他在多次提起不適中 當然不適中 但是符合條件"},{"start":3720.37,"end":3733.735,"text":"好 謝謝主委因為上個會期其實我在這邊就已經有跟主委請教了那是不是這一次因為上個會期有請教這次還沒有拿到答案是不是大概有要多少時間可以提供一個資料書面資料給我們應該說三張頁"},{"start":3738.942,"end":3757.325,"text":"一個月之內嗎三個月三個月之內那是拜託盡快可以處理那第二個也要請教主委這個客家基本法的第三條已經明定了政府應該保護及推廣客語那依照這個文化部的語言調查報告"},{"start":3758.185,"end":3781.141,"text":"其實現在客語的使用率有流失超過七成那以及有四個縣市的一些比如說什麼少安腔啊海陸腔已經屬於這個冰嶺就大家越來越講越少那這次的業務報告我們很期待可是卻沒有看見客家語言發展法草案的進度它是依照客家基本法第三條應該要來明定的一個部分"},{"start":3781.661,"end":3808.462,"text":"所以我們就我了解其實國民黨團有三個委員也提出相關的法案的草案那現在還沒有看到政院的版本那所以我們認為這個法制的進程有點遲緩那是不是會造成客語快速流失的這些隱憂是不是可以請教主委那現在我們的這個客語客家語言發展法最重要推廣客語的這個草案何時可以送來立法院"},{"start":3809.902,"end":3814.644,"text":"我們也要重新系統行業發展法的討論因為在北部有幾條多條,某種意見很清楚所以我們要有一個公開的議題去邀請大家提供意見我認為我們國家要進一步,關於要進一步,送到法院"},{"start":3835.37,"end":3860.291,"text":"這個會期有機會送進來立法院嗎可能有困難 這是你 議員也是你 可能有困難好 沒關係 主委一定要再加油啦 好不好還有上個會期我有請教主委其實客語的發展有一個非常重要就是國家客家發展計畫它會訂定我們未來整個客語它整個的一些的計畫跟進度那上次我有請教過主委 在112年底"},{"start":3863.424,"end":3888.2,"text":"公佈完這個計劃以後113年度是空白當時我還認為說奇怪賴總統怎麼會113年度都空白那之前問主委現在未來預計有一個新的一期的國家課與發展計劃是114年到117年有這樣的計劃嗎有有有 目前已經合幣費已經整個當天好了目前尊本行政院和政院的費送國普費國普費的意見也還在事實當中"},{"start":3890.123,"end":3901.126,"text":"所以我請教主委那113年當時沒有提出計劃這個未來會是同案嗎還是說當時的原因發展是什麼為什麼過去的計劃是110年到112年113年是空白然後新的計劃是114年到117年那113年這樣子的沒有這樣的計劃未來是同案嗎"},{"start":3910.963,"end":3927.789,"text":"我希望英國不會在未來無縫接軌就會持續下去好 謝謝主委希望說這個客家語言發展不能說中間斷掉一年我也是支持主委的想法應該要延續最後有請教一個重點就是說現在我"},{"start":3930.029,"end":3949.153,"text":"這個客會要來發行這個客家幣預計好像在114年的7月要來刺激族群認同以及語言文化的參與我認為這是一個非常重要的事情可是我相信這個還在研議當中那我可不可以請教主委今年的客家幣預計發行的量為何那客家幣114年7月要發行客家幣的發放"},{"start":3955.074,"end":3973.55,"text":"那我們的預期的目標是什麼可以增加多少客家客於使用的比例那以及這個客家幣現在的發放就我所了解現在使用在實體的狀況就是說我實體在消費的時候可以去使用那因為本席知道說現在我們客委會很認真他有推動很多的線上課程"},{"start":3974.511,"end":3980.653,"text":"那我想說這些客家幣是不是可以來購買這些線上課程這些虛擬的一些的使用方式是不是可以請這個主委解釋一下好感謝總委員我們學家幣一開始最要爭取的原因是高息依賴和負負負負負負負負負負負負"},{"start":4001.679,"end":4006.544,"text":"有學家認證認證的人一定得到 類似學生一定得到第三個有顧慮行業家庭要在三方面 保養高校很困難我不用說英國的學生行業有流通適用的機會"},{"start":4020.976,"end":4027.599,"text":"本身的行業家庭、行業認證人做到在外公學、外公學所做事的時間,做到用合法的對方最主要我們想要的事情,不是要運用的技巧,是要用合法的技巧所以我非常要學習"},{"start":4041.885,"end":4042.626,"text":"所以主委謝謝 所以就是說"},{"start":4070.34,"end":4088.667,"text":"這個客家幣的重點是要讓大家促進客語的發展大家用客語溝通嘛所以在使用客家幣的時候就是盡量要鼓勵大家要講客語鼓勵大家 鼓勵大家 還有那個送點要一天的外公學要送點的年齡沒有那預計發行的數量為何目前四十萬年 四十萬 四十萬"},{"start":4096.051,"end":4100.157,"text":"40萬人那一個人大概可以取得1000塊但是因為我的電子機我倆人看不到我們才登記制"},{"start":4116.015,"end":4128.361,"text":"那最後我還是要拜託主委 我要請教一個問題其實我也是幫新北市政府發聲那新北市政府 最後一個問題新北市政府每年都會辦這個疫名季的部分那我想要請教 請主委聽一下我的問題"},{"start":4130.302,"end":4156.461,"text":"這個112年度這個新北市辦疫名祭的整個經費是120萬當時課委會補助300萬那113年的時候總經費也是120萬可是課委會只補助100萬為什麼會少了三倍那我希望說114年的時候因為我知道課委會的這個經費今年跟去年比起來還多了3億元那我是不是需要說可以不要再減少了好 各位請主委回答"},{"start":4156.881,"end":4157.581,"text":"主席 請主委"},{"start":4189.841,"end":4194.285,"text":"主委說實在的,北省聽不懂,不知所措,根本你們這個單位,有山也有洞,好像還會走進出來,所以在這個過程當中,我也覺得大家都是"},{"start":4213.48,"end":4222.528,"text":"說不實在的 會違法啦 處理很明顯的 你有檢體對 有敵對 哪有說 給你給人家讀給你給人家刪啊 要怎麼給人家記 你不就說不要人刪 不要人那個啊 我覺得這個社會都亂了啦 來啦"},{"start":4235.626,"end":4255.685,"text":"主委,在這裏我覺得剛才有說到博工站博工站大部分都是客家委員的自治的所在有時候他們地方有長照的,都可以互相配合你如果想說,我跟義企的年數不夠"},{"start":4261.758,"end":4267.782,"text":"英文都沒辦法申請,尤其在那六條的地方主委你知道,台北他們都支持在那尤其在廟的他們的活動他們的辦,這幾天我們的童話祭到外面,我們的聖父山丘那裡,還有樹林的"},{"start":4286.324,"end":4293.527,"text":"提供給我們用的那個童話節我當然跟你們說我要說補公站的時候我認為主委我們是不是要有一個改變以入進展不要說我們如果像你們這樣說的時候自己是永遠又簽署到補公站是不是這個問題要怎麼去改變可以照顧這些客戶因為他們長大"},{"start":4313.917,"end":4322.141,"text":"差不多都上了年紀那麼多要怎麼去照顧他們來 主委你回答一下跟王委員報告 做王委員這樣下去看其實假如私下的素材很符合省錢 把工作負債的條件因為經驗我們要把它擴大除了鄉鎮期超過三分之一以上只有他的社中條三期存離那差不多"},{"start":4342.652,"end":4349.097,"text":"一般他送人去的行李或用行李的店他就可以來選擇所以就像王美媛這樣在他的講義士我們提供的素材他做的比較乾淨他做的就來選擇"},{"start":4358.333,"end":4371.042,"text":"因為我當委來聽他們說的時候,就是說要申請的時候,他們的領口所會不足,但是主委你這樣說的時候,他們可以去申請這個不公站,但是在中等到今年的時候,我們有計39張出來,但是我們的經費,也有刪除的時候,如果這樣"},{"start":4384.082,"end":4398.755,"text":"是可以再接受新的申請或是未來申請來主委你回答一下另外一個部分,第一個部分是委員講到的我們在經費刪貼,刪貼依算有影響到白宮這屋站莫不臭有影響,我們民意的暫定因為白宮這屋站"},{"start":4409.625,"end":4423.513,"text":"三點數變多,所以雖然說有增加一些,但是平均來說全部還是公台公台補儲的金額,所以故事有公台的補儲"},{"start":4430.217,"end":4432.1,"text":"主委你現在說的,可以申請跟補助固定的,你買了再說,因為醫生的問題,所以固定的過程,因為醫生有三億,所以會減的"},{"start":4448.22,"end":4450.843,"text":"是不是這樣 錯錯錯因為我覺得這就是醫生的照顧 這裡的博工站公司一定要有醫生嘛 要有醫生可以讓這裡的博工站的照顧更好我也希望未來的假期期拿出來的時候 我們的懲辦單位"},{"start":4473.755,"end":4490.968,"text":"來人道合作一下再來主委,我代您請教說因為我們有夾武輝和媒體的選擇窮三千年的時候,我們的客家族群主流化的發展會繼續"},{"start":4494.434,"end":4507.068,"text":"和競爭創新的環境會營造的幾位客家議員、深植的區委和客家藝文發展的政委裡面的區委那這裡面"},{"start":4508.489,"end":4513.033,"text":"我認為第一就是用議員發展委員會去辦的因為長久以來在家裡我都要求你們在家裡做一些議員會讓這些孩子可以合作"},{"start":4528.926,"end":4533.85,"text":"我們的議員像我講的那樣,各位議員大家互相尊重互相合適,我們也希望這個議員不能消失但是本市是很高興,像本屋的幾位來賓"},{"start":4550.004,"end":4557.669,"text":"是不是今年還可以做嗎?來感謝王委員我們有醫生我們很希望到國體法判例但是現在凍結醫生3%是否凍結到以前確實會影響到醫院法庭的創持"},{"start":4570.498,"end":4574.223,"text":"所以我還是希望在這個年度以後我能夠發出規劃以以往表現的衝刺"},{"start":4582.871,"end":4603.264,"text":"這樣主委你說這幾天在假期期都有藝文表演的時候會結尾如果不解凍的時候今年就有可能不去假期期表演了有可能這樣就有很嚴重的對假期期來說的應用很大的所以說我們要關心去看要怎麼處理因為他們都說主要你們提議以來"},{"start":4613.051,"end":4617.714,"text":"來解凍 跟你們說沒關係 看是他們說真的要解凍還是那些人用蒸的啦應該主委 各位人喔 那些用蒸的可能聽不懂啦主委在這裡本身要跟你探討的就是說 我們都有去"},{"start":4636.328,"end":4642.314,"text":"假如說我們的課位的零考數有多少在這個規定當中,我們有三檔內省,有四檔內省,有五檔內省在這幾檔內,本學所看到的就是91年"},{"start":4654.326,"end":4659.21,"text":"九九十三年 再來九十千年 再來一百年 再來一百零三年一百零五年 再來一百十年現在要再九十八十五年 還要算我們的統計在這裡本身要提議說 我們不要憤顧五年到算一遍 那太晚太久了我們是不是可以改變說三年還是四年 因為五年有那麼久"},{"start":4682.947,"end":4686.069,"text":"主委我這個意見是不是去了解看看因為統計你讓五黨最過久的人考數以上因為我接受的時間夠了感謝主委"},{"start":4700.517,"end":4705.599,"text":"通話機的補助,說實在我本來站在這要求說,可以補助多少嗎?還有醫生有三人,希望醫生有三人的時候,對自己的活動,要讓他們多多協助和了解他們如何的辦活動,以及醫生多多給他們協助,以上好,感謝毛議員"},{"start":4731.021,"end":4732.963,"text":"好我們請黃建平委員謝謝主席我們慢慢請客會鼓主委好請主委主委早安主委接下來4月到5月是客家莊很重要的這個觀光季節就是4月5月是我們這個"},{"start":4758.635,"end":4778.134,"text":"桐花季嘛對不對那油桐花生長密集的地方就是都很多都是我們許多客家族群的一個聚集的 居地的地方喔那油桐花過去也是客家族群呃貼補家用一個很重要的經濟作物那隨著時代變遷那油桐花現在變成國內旅遊觀光的一個重要的亮點"},{"start":4779.639,"end":4808.251,"text":"那我想因此不管是中央跟或者是我們地方政府近年都不斷的在推廣這個油桶花季那並結合我們的客家的文化活動讓我們的美景還有我們的客家歷史文化能夠相輔相成那本席注意到客委會為了推廣我們客家文化有設立這個客庄小旅行的網站方便民眾來查詢有相關的一些活動的地點那尤其是跟我們這個各縣市的政府來合作大力推廣這個油桶花季"},{"start":4808.951,"end":4834.85,"text":"像是推出這個33條油桐花小旅行的路線以及許多桐花義務活動這是一件好事那本席對於谷竹野上任之後至於推廣我們各地的客家文化也是給予肯定那但是本席要跟竹野反映一件事情就是台東的油桐花其實也非常的漂亮那尤其是在我們台東的鹿野地區因為我們台東的客家住院主要是在縱谷就是石上關山跟鹿野"},{"start":4835.45,"end":4857.138,"text":"那鹿野地區有前陣子還有辦那個花線鹿野客家童花的這個活動那指導單位還是我們客委會那本席也在活動的時候遇到我們的科長那但是我在我們客委會的這個客庄小旅行的這個官網上面介紹這個油桐花小旅行的這個欄目裡面並沒有看到相關的質詢"},{"start":4858.539,"end":4864.954,"text":"那其實這是件非常可惜的事情因為當天的活動其實非常多的人可是其實他這個活動並沒有在網站出現"},{"start":4866.175,"end":4891.928,"text":"那雖然台東比較偏遠那其實因為偏遠所以才是更需要大家來注意那一起來推廣我們在地的這個客家文化的美景促進更多的觀光的人潮台東縱谷的客家文化其實相對它特別它是一個各族群融合的地方它除了有客家族群外還有漢人還有原住民阿美族的朋友甚至一些是我們新住民現在形成一個很特殊的客家文化"},{"start":4892.668,"end":4918.256,"text":"那主要應該了解其實台東其實就是一個移民的移民城市那根據我們客人會過去的統計台東的客家人口大概是在4萬多人也佔了將近全縣將近20%那相較於桃園、新竹、苗栗這些幾個客家大縣來說雖然我們人口數比較少可是其實台東美麗的這個油桶花的景點跟客栈文化其實也沒有比較差"},{"start":4919.136,"end":4935.69,"text":"那像是我們過去我們鹿野龍田就有一個那個油桐花大道那花季的時候非常漂亮吸引很多的遊客來這邊喝我們紅烏龍然後賞花那非常適合全家大小來這邊旅遊不過在一樣在我們客家"},{"start":4937.059,"end":4956.96,"text":"客庄小旅行的這網站中同樣也沒有看到這樣的相關的資訊喔那我記得本席在剛到立法院的時候其實在三個主委的時候其實有建議過這件事情要趕快改進那當時主委也說會來改善那目前為止還是沒有這部分我想還是要請主委來多多的來督促一下喔那"},{"start":4958.201,"end":4984.434,"text":"另外在這個網站上我們可以看到各縣市的有關遊童化或是客家文化體驗的這個套裝行程啊它的費用啊還有聯繫窗口但幾乎也都沒有看到什麼台東的商家只有在那個限定優惠店家中找到兩個登記在案的這個台東伴手禮的商店我想這樣對於台東有關客家文化的元素非常可惜就是我想相信它元素很多不只有這一家而已"},{"start":4985.074,"end":5012.344,"text":"所以本席希望是為了要督促我們整個台東縣促進我們台東縣的這個觀光那也將我們台東的客家文化發揚廣大需要我們中央跟地方一起來努力在這邊本席也要幫台東縣來宣傳我們目前台東縣跟鹿野相公所有推出這個花縣鹿野的這個活動現在也熱烈的在進行那我們也歡迎全國各地的鄉親都可以來這邊來旅遊所以我想要請客委會的主委回去再盤點一下"},{"start":5013.504,"end":5033.873,"text":"有關台東的相關的這個上通的步道 油棟花的這個小旅行的資訊以及店家的資訊能夠更新在我們客戶會的這個官網裡面那主委是不是回去之後可以立刻來著手好 感謝王議員 我想要一天下去處理啦所以請人家不等於要馬上去判理"},{"start":5035.154,"end":5053.89,"text":"好 謝謝主委主委我想台東是一個多元的移民城市那客家文化其實在台東其實也是很重要的一件事情我們一起來努力讓屬於這塊土地上的一個文化然後一個族群的聲音讓更多人看到那謝謝主委好 感謝王議員好 謝謝主席好 我們請李博議員"},{"start":5066.476,"end":5068.198,"text":"好像剛剛資訊到現在齁那所有的委員都對於這個我們客家委員會的這些事務"},{"start":5085.871,"end":5111.884,"text":"包含博工照護站都有非常多的這些意見甚至要推廣客家相關不管是語言或者是文化或者是觀光也好都有提出很多的這些見解奇怪怎麼跟我準備的方向不太一樣好像大家才忘記說今天我的重點其實是要跟客委會來討論"},{"start":5114.943,"end":5140.385,"text":"被刪了那麼多預算被凍了那麼多預算這些事情怎麼做剛好好像所有人都忘記捏新北的委員還說去年補助120萬今年能不能增加他忘記他刪了你們多少預算捏主委妳說明一下補助方面的預算被刪了多少目前吼我們額部費全部分散在1.91"},{"start":5144.483,"end":5165.687,"text":"業務費刪除1.9億這個是光課委會的部分嘛那還有一個行政院被統刪676億請問課委會現在已經收到主席出說我們課委會必須要允諸多少目前還沒有也要6361要行政院自行調整的部分目前還沒有有納稅所以"},{"start":5169.164,"end":5198.443,"text":"怎麼樣補助 所以這一筆補助經費一定會被影響到啊怎麼樣增加 你剛剛的回應也沒有說要怎麼樣增加我也不懂 我也不知道你要怎麼樣可以增加嘛所以很可惜齁 其實今年是補助委可以開始好好執行賴總統對於好好在客家庄生活以及好好推廣客語的一個工作年那國家的稅收也足以讓客委會可以多做事"},{"start":5199.847,"end":5207.832,"text":"主委,你原本想要多做的事情是什麼?跟議員報告,我們今年有機的新增的計劃,剛才講到的核和B,那一個再大的部分,我們要強硬,我們今年強硬諮詢委員會,特別強硬的支持內部,要去建立那個一級。"},{"start":5221.84,"end":5229.209,"text":"現行目前除了新的計劃以外,還有QA延續新的計劃,我們都在擴大工程,拔萊潘尼,他們都需要經費,所以產業以後雖然有增加,但是那是不可能的"},{"start":5245.643,"end":5261.269,"text":"簡單來講,舊的計畫可以持續做,例如博工造戶站做的做,但是因為有刪除的預算博工造戶站也被刪除了嘛文化幣是新的預算,所以文化幣是可能不知道怎麼樣開始進行嗎?"},{"start":5262.898,"end":5272.324,"text":"黑咖啡的部分,我們沒辦法全面的發,要用一些策略去感受,要等級,沒辦法全面"},{"start":5281.423,"end":5310.598,"text":"所以就變成只能逐步的來推廣我覺得非常可惜那台灣是所有華人地區唯一有一個客家的算客委會一個唯一有客委會當部會的一個國家那最主要的目的要推廣好好客庄生活之外對於客語的推廣也是我們急需要努力的方向也要持續努力的工作"},{"start":5311.098,"end":5328.308,"text":"那吸引青年然後做客家幣等等的我覺得都是非常好的一個方向那如果不能做我必須要把目前我們所有有刪除客委會預算的委員我必須要把他們的名字念出來啦"},{"start":5334.352,"end":5363.318,"text":"有新竹的包含在我們委員會裡面雖然在我們委員會審查的時候他沒有刪到這一筆但是徐欣穎委員在二讀會的時候是舉手刪除客委會預算林思明委員在二讀會的時候是舉手刪除客委會預算傅坤祺委員在二讀會的時候是舉手刪除我們的預算徐巧欣委員號稱客籍委員在二讀會的時候"},{"start":5364.338,"end":5370.244,"text":"也是舉手刪除客委會的預算所以針對這幾個委員我必須要把他們點名"},{"start":5371.744,"end":5396.523,"text":"所有其他包含新住民委員包含原住民委員對他們新住民的權益對他們原住民的權益想盡辦法希望增加照顧只有這四個客委會的委員在院會的時候去大砍客委會的預算我覺得這件事情必須要講出來當然不是主委你講這是我講那所以最後"},{"start":5397.063,"end":5403.528,"text":"希望客委會在雖然非常辛苦的狀況下我還沒問你凍結有多少?凍結目前是30%30%推算下來差不多3.61%但是...哇!那非常大喔!其實3.9%跟3.6%那是過去兩年來合理費沒的狀況"},{"start":5422.865,"end":5450.72,"text":"歷年被刪跟凍最多的一次嗎沒錯那我請問妳被凍結百分之三十到目前行政院沒有辦法算出來那六百七十六億大家怎麼分配的狀況下會影響到客委會的哪一個業務的工作全面都會影響到譬如昨天妳的譬如說我們的核架國藥管磨砂要請一萬人去參加目前還在核核磨法徒庭堂去判理"},{"start":5451.772,"end":5457.322,"text":"所以這一個客家歌謠比賽他可能要等到凍結之後才有辦法來規劃結凍結凍以後要解凍之後所以有可能有可能今年就沒法圖判"},{"start":5466.448,"end":5490.595,"text":"有凍結的百分之三十以外還有行政院那六百七十六億所以客委會很多的這些不管是補助也好或者是活動也好已經嚴重影響到客委會歷年在辦理推廣課餘以及各種活動或者是補助縣市政府是不是也有會受到影響我會想問像剛才說的白宮政府站目前已經都減少減費的減少百分之十七的減費"},{"start":5496.42,"end":5507.835,"text":"所以國民黨的委員都只敢問那種不用花到錢的事情嗎真正要花到預算的事情都不敢問嗎所以在這邊我必須要提出來謝謝,也請客委會加油好,感謝李委員請慢用政委"},{"start":5530.492,"end":5550.478,"text":"有請主委好請主委媽咪一樣吼聲音沒有出來請董事聽書一下好嗎請董事聽書一下謝謝"},{"start":5560.977,"end":5564.958,"text":"主委,您是否同意預算凍結不是刪除?當然,當然,凍結是凍結,但是某些都以前還是做我們的用"},{"start":5580.812,"end":5601.392,"text":"對 但是說凍結不是刪除嘛 你也是同意嘛但是我們立法院是要行政機關 就是要有完整的報告就能啟動 解凍的程序 就進入解凍的程序 對嗎"},{"start":5602.803,"end":5607.646,"text":"目前這樣,但是有規定沒有確定的引書像剛才說的,在二三堵的時間沒錯,是說沒有確定,沒有預算是行政機關的工作,沒有去做嘛所以說,所以在目前我們沒有看到我們的"},{"start":5626.917,"end":5632.627,"text":"科家委員會向立法院提出任何一份正式書面解凍的書面"},{"start":5637.651,"end":5662.799,"text":"所以到目前為止也沒有提出嘛 是不是目前沒提出 那個營業 要同時提二三度的時間要同三的時間 有六八三十六一對啊 但是說我們是為什麼不提出呢因為要不提出才能解凍嘛但是要數額的平安 沒有確定也是這個行政部門要去算啊因為整個一個會計"},{"start":5665.44,"end":5669.043,"text":"會計單位 我們整個會計單位到現在沒有去做自己該值的預算還有說該要提出報告 我們就可以解凍但是呢 你也沒有提出報告啊 也不願意提出報告所以說是為什麼呢 還是說因為行政院沒有 叫你不要提出"},{"start":5688.997,"end":5693.198,"text":"就不要解凍沒有 我跟議員報告 因為當時三一酸有6361 壓的部分要七個月調整 壓的體態數量數量所有的土地要三一度 都不行所以說出來 都一定要運用處理所以說我們是沒有刪除的 還是一樣可以用嘛 對不對"},{"start":5715.803,"end":5717.907,"text":"所以我們行政院現在跟開說無法確認就是像你說的剩餘數難以題解動案"},{"start":5727.006,"end":5749.22,"text":"我們三讀通過你們就來用後面的行政作業就要去做嘛所以都該做的沒有去做所以根本就是偷換概念凍結預算與刪減預算是完全不同的機制連這個國小的學生都知道所以解凍案應該應對就是會被刪除的但是凍結的部分預算處理"},{"start":5755.123,"end":5761.947,"text":"所以但是我看你的報告裡面都有寫你們做的哪一些啊對不對所以說不送申請凍結的方案但是呢 說我們立法院讓你無法推動業務不是我們啊所以說你比較批求一個沒錯 但是有三處的凍結所以凍結要去處理面報告"},{"start":5784.502,"end":5795.329,"text":"就會進入程序但是完全沒有所以不是說凍結不等於刪除所以我們在我們的審查的預算我們共同減了我們是43億我們的編列的預算114年編列的預算43億7000"},{"start":5805.776,"end":5807.236,"text":"多萬我們錢只有一億九千多萬動了四億多而已其他都不能用"},{"start":5821.781,"end":5825.444,"text":"但是目前為止我們看你的運作你報告裡面你還是有在運作沒有提出的解凍的編列的預算所以你怕說因為你今年14年申請太多了我們解凍後你花不完用不完所以你不敢來申請解凍"},{"start":5845.998,"end":5846.819,"text":"根據我們的警察署成績因為時間的關係全台詐騙集團現在已經標高了週一"},{"start":5862.155,"end":5886.542,"text":"單日採選就高達2億8千多萬全年就是顯示破百億啦大家的資料都知道我們所有的全民都知道說禍害年齡就是50歲以上為最多其中65以上的長者就被比較高主委很清楚我們客家族群高齡的人口比我們全國平均"},{"start":5891.784,"end":5895.865,"text":"就是比較聽不懂中文所以呢他只要講柯家他辨識這些詐騙的就是能力比較低但是呢我們在這個部分呢我請教我們柯委會防詐的議題是柯家的版本有製作嗎有影片嗎有海報嗎有手冊嗎我們沒有看到"},{"start":5918.831,"end":5920.253,"text":"我們跟議員報告,我們今年每宣費三個百分之六十幾度都沒辦法做的,過去我們都沒辦法做但是三個百分之六十幾度高達一億多啊,高達一億多還在可以用嗎?"},{"start":5936.274,"end":5960.819,"text":"但是你們就把電影片類的大片的影片放在自己的客家的網站自嗨所以沒有達到我們要放出的影片所以我現在要求你可以你要去要做這件事情這個也是公共議題所以說我們電影的媒體宣傳意義多"},{"start":5964.48,"end":5967.061,"text":"可以再做這一塊嗎?刪除了35% 更是凍結30%你也自己講的所以這個部分我希望但是關於這個關鍵"},{"start":5987.745,"end":5990.706,"text":"這個關鍵希望說我們減少詐騙的你完全沒有去做這意義多來去做什麼還有我們現在目前我們有很多的但是我們有現在的我們全國的我們看你們網站"},{"start":6010.476,"end":6030.758,"text":"科家認證今年到底有沒有辦影響有多少學生跟教師但是我們看你們的網站也有在進行中因為我們是凍結的費用是部分還有很多的經費還是需去用但是你是不是你可以自己打自己的嘴巴看有沒有很痛呢"},{"start":6031.058,"end":6036.981,"text":"而你講的跟做的完全是因為詐騙人行事不是依法行政也沒有依理的定則去執行所以說全國小型的藝文競賽目前的進度還是一樣可以再進行我們看到的就是這樣子的畫面所以我們希望不要就是去騙我們"},{"start":6057.23,"end":6060.531,"text":"平民百姓這個都是我們很清楚的所以我們很清楚如果你說這樣子的話我請你全國 給我一分鐘客家族群收騙的人數金額 詐騙的"},{"start":6074.457,"end":6082.546,"text":"楊太統計給我兩天統計給我送到我的公司有困難因為你有去做該做的事情當然有困難我們立法院在行我們的監督局有依有據"},{"start":6093.379,"end":6098.06,"text":"所以我們希望你當醫療的事情也懂得去報告不要嘴巴一直在說我們凍結 凍結 沒法執行每天都在執行我們的費用是從今年到現在已經四月份了我們行政院跟各個部會沒有提出就是我們的凍結的方案怎麼樣去解凍呢這個就是"},{"start":6122.988,"end":6142.613,"text":"部會的工作要去做的我們希望我們要拿出證據也拿出你的行政的職責不要再去欺騙我們平民百姓了以上希望你在兩天不行是不是一個禮拜拿出我們因為你有媒體費你要拿出我們柯家族群被受騙的受騙的資料給我一個禮拜謝謝"},{"start":6155.08,"end":6165.666,"text":"好 我們請黃婕為人好 謝謝主席 我們請顧主委好 請主委我們一樣齁"},{"start":6173.806,"end":6179.548,"text":"主委好 可不可以在這邊先請妳說明解凍報告真的是因為你們不送 才沒有辦法審理嗎請問 今天報告不是我們不送 凡是投錢 有業益的部分 公募問題的因素就是636億 而我們持行刪除的部分 我們不在經驗的一端 故事會影響到我們的學費 到底那算1.91 還是比1.91更高"},{"start":6203.237,"end":6226.783,"text":"好謝謝主委的說明我在這邊再幫主委再補充一下其實總預算從公告到現在也不過三個禮拜的時間光是這個準備的期間現在就要馬上送解凍報告根本非常不合情合理更何況這個解凍報告的專案報告的用意就是希望說預算執行之後看是不是有改善的空間再來專案報告嘛"},{"start":6228.143,"end":6255.588,"text":"那你總預算到現在也才公告三周那你要去怎麼檢視這個預算執行期間到底有沒有改善所以現在就要送解凍報告真的是非常不合理的一件事情再加上剛剛主委說的因為立法院送出去的時候636億通刪並沒有告訴各個部會到底要各部會怎麼樣去分配自己要刪凍的金額導致現在各個部會都還不知道最後我到底還有哪些"},{"start":6256.808,"end":6282.667,"text":"項目哪一些預算可能會被刪到連部會自己都不知道因為立法院沒有給啊所以很多國民黨跟民眾黨的委員還在講說為什麼解斷報告不趕快送出來不就他們害的所以我是在這邊替你們喊冤啦真的非常委屈喔那前面我也要講一下因為其實剛剛有委員提到說你們過去到現在即便刪了1.9億可是還是比去年多了3億"},{"start":6283.948,"end":6287.551,"text":"那這個真的就不會影響你們預算執行嗎?真的不會影響你們在地方上推廣客家文化的行動嗎?民營報告一定有影響的,目前很寬度影響的用一個例子來講,剛才關心的北貢州負責,民營的負責點數很重"},{"start":6305.465,"end":6314.088,"text":"明年要判理的內容增加,從今年來說增加的強硬,尤其是餐廳的事情,要經費一定要增加要增加的經費,雖然說有增加,但是剩下的以後不太白因為以餐廳輸多,所以目前已經輸影響的,所有的餐廳3%,17%同步供待,要吃吃的影響"},{"start":6335.199,"end":6344.443,"text":"好 謝謝主委的說明所以很明顯嘛剛剛也有一些委員自己提到說雖然說了什麼刪了1.9億但是還是增加了3億但實質上光是這個博光照護站就已經實質受影響了那我在這邊要提另外一點對於我高雄這邊的業務是比較有影響的因為裡面其實有一筆是這個客家語言升職計畫的委辦費被減列了1060萬元那這個"},{"start":6363.251,"end":6379.821,"text":"我很擔心的是 是不是會直接影響到 客語能力認證的 施策的場次目前我們清涼的育婦 也要行業推動所以也要部分 我們清涼不需要影響但是 沒確定說以後的財產 也要說幾年 幾年之後 要如何有影響"},{"start":6388.82,"end":6405.359,"text":"好 這個是我非常擔心的喔因為其實我們高雄也有四個是這個客家相關的莊就是包括美濃 山林 六龜甲仙嘛那其實在我們市區其實客家的人口也不少那像我們這邊古山就也有近兩成那還有三明也是兩三成"},{"start":6405.919,"end":6431.09,"text":"那我很擔心說這樣子預算刪減下去或是這個凍結到時候沒有辦法解凍的話是不是會影響到我們這個實測的場次因為其實我也知道說像我們高雄真的很努力在推廣我們高雄的市府的課委會也是很努力所以這種本土文化的保存工作啊我們也是一直有在鼓勵大家趕快來考課餘這個能力的認證那甚至還提高了課餘能力的這個認證的獎勵金那我很擔心說如果到時候真的"},{"start":6434.731,"end":6448.471,"text":"預算被迫減少然後考試的場次影響到的話那等於是前功盡棄我們這麼地方這麼努力的在做這個本土文化的保存跟推廣然後結果中央被因為特定的委員把這個預算刪掉"},{"start":6450.093,"end":6459.405,"text":"導致我們推廣的這個場次進行不下去所以我這個是非常擔心啦所以我在這邊也是希望像主委剛剛講的還是盡量到時候如果預算可以有調配的空間的話盡量不要去影響到能力認證這方面的場次跟推廣"},{"start":6468.016,"end":6476.339,"text":"也跟議員補充啦 因為他的母親也受到影響 因為我們宣傳的生態60% 也在櫃台的一部分所以每一項的宣傳都很感受 感受的宣傳 包括他的認真 比方說像認真 宣傳要跟他講 他要保命的 他要用的"},{"start":6490.765,"end":6496.947,"text":"感謝 感謝 因為那些人 人就不對說 有人要諮詢的所以 目前來說 人家那些事都影響了就 報名的人數 可能沒有很多人家 目前都看得到這就是我擔心的對 光是你們宣傳費如果不夠大家連考試的資訊都不知道"},{"start":6509.611,"end":6525.091,"text":"那可能報名的人次就受影響那整個能夠被保存的這次能夠因為考試而推廣這個課與認證的範圍又縮小了這就是我最擔心的一件事情那最後還有點時間我來補充爭取一下因為我知道說你們今年有這個課加幣的計畫"},{"start":6526.733,"end":6532.598,"text":"那我不知道說這個到底接下來會不會因為你們的可能通商那個636億被影響到或者是你們現在手上的31.9億還有凍結3.6億的目前的經費而受到影響那我希望不會"},{"start":6542.145,"end":6568.603,"text":"那如果不会的话在这样的前提之下可以顺利的推行客家币的计划因为我知道里面其实政策蛮好的就是说18到20岁的本国的青年可以来参与抽签然后抽出40万份然后通过客语认证的还有客语家庭的人就可以来领然后去相关的这个客家的店家消费嘛那我目前看到的是因为你们目标是3000家可是目前大概只招到了800间"},{"start":6569.804,"end":6584.909,"text":"相關的客家店家那我在想是不是因為你們把相關的範圍只限縮在客家文化重點發展城鄉裡面的行政區呢如果可以是不是再放寬就像我剛剛提到的我們高雄市區雖然高雄有四個"},{"start":6585.749,"end":6607.045,"text":"六龜美濃然後山林甲仙除了這四個之外其實其他的行政區的客家人口也不少啊那像我們鼓山像我們三明鳳山其實都也有一定的客家比例的人口那是不是也可以把這一些行政區放進去不要只限縮在客家文化發展的城鄉區呢"},{"start":6608.687,"end":6611.11,"text":"感謝李燕 李燕提的提議 我覺得在各方面的研究看到有發出確態的目 當一般的提起以外共學的重點 也要研究"},{"start":6622.521,"end":6649.169,"text":"好謝謝主委那我的目的當然是希望說如果這一些城鄉發展區可以優先啦那重點是這一些使用客家幣的人口他們去客家的店家使用的時候可以有更多客家文化的交流嘛那包括說他的店家本身就是推廣客家文化的或者是他的店員是可以講客家話的那如果我們市區也有這樣的店家其實也可以把他們納入那目標就是三千間都可以都可以招進來嘛"},{"start":6650.349,"end":6654.63,"text":"好謝謝主委謝謝好感謝王美燕好主席一位同仁請我們的谷主委"},{"start":6683.621,"end":6704.272,"text":"好 主委好 主委 針對我們刪減的預算 我看這1.9億 裡面就列了五項 包含我們博工的護照 還有那個客家的推廣還有產業的推廣 藝文的推廣 那2年期的營運 那你這1.9億"},{"start":6706.754,"end":6713.617,"text":"9億的刪減,那對你整個運作有沒有受影響有,有所影響,就像VN說的那幾項,我們很感激警惡,不出提防的警惡,還有感激那些攀離的蟲吃,這都有所影響對,因為主委,你在"},{"start":6728.826,"end":6756.02,"text":"在推廣的客家 其實包含本席比較注重的就是那個客家的語言的推廣還有我們現在還有一個凍結的3.6億這整個的客委會的運作是一個大大的打擊那我們還是要趕快來做解套吧那本席這邊跟你探討一下就是2012年開始舉辦的"},{"start":6758.941,"end":6774.459,"text":"又刻意認證那你現在又年齡又下修到四歲四歲就可以來報名那你整個的我們的幼童的推廣這個成效現在是怎樣"},{"start":6775.879,"end":6779.14,"text":"今天報告,去年一百一十三年有八千人參加今年五千人又減少,我們要探討的原因包括創始、判例的創始還有猶豫,是不是我們判的合不來敗想猶豫來參加,生意來參加"},{"start":6802.662,"end":6828.871,"text":"因為真的我們客家語言的流失速度是真的非常的快那我看在我的選區在新北新北客家的人口應該有超過60萬那光是土城三峽這個區域的人口的比例也是非常的高所以我看到一些客家的小朋友他們現在都是不講客語"},{"start":6829.671,"end":6847.572,"text":"那這是很嚴重的問題那我們要怎樣來做推廣呢你除了說是不是除了我們客家語言的推廣讓他們有些學習的認證以外還是辦一些我記得過去我們辦了一個客家大宴"},{"start":6849.432,"end":6873.027,"text":"然後客家大院全部都是用我們的客家語言那我們是要怎樣來讓他們來欣賞我們的客家系來學習我們的客家語言我認為這個成效都不錯啊那我現在還有一點就在我們這個月的19號19號"},{"start":6876.843,"end":6885.689,"text":"就是這個禮拜六這個禮拜六我們的土城有個同花祭新北就是土城這個場次那這個場次一半都是有好幾萬人"},{"start":6893.82,"end":6905.365,"text":"那所以我們要怎樣去推廣 那你說你錢撥給新北市但是我來先問一下 主委你那天會不會到負主委跟主秘對 因為我們就是有一個差別的待遇錢是我們中央出的"},{"start":6920.424,"end":6942.684,"text":"但是我們中央補助但是到了那一邊我看要說話的機會也是不大所以這一點吼我還是認為說我們要花的錢吼還是花在我們能夠有有真正的先導我們客家的族群吼然後我"},{"start":6944.813,"end":6973.235,"text":"因為每年這個同花祭是辦得非常成功所以我們還是要跟他們結合說怎樣來辦,要互相尊重嘛就是我們客委會到我們地方民意代表沒說話那也OK但是起碼我們出的經費也是要適度的尊重我們一下這一點應該是跟新北市市政府大家溝通一下吧"},{"start":6975.81,"end":6975.993,"text":"還有勒"},{"start":6981.448,"end":7006.365,"text":"那我剛才那個我們蘇巧惠講的在三峽五寮五寮是一個有一個客家客家裡吧有個客家園區啊那個那個客家裡我看我們在我們我們客委會這邊來做輔導我認為是輔導的不是很成功嗎這一點就是我們要要加強的"},{"start":7008.602,"end":7008.722,"text":"國會國會議員報告國會國會國會議員報告國會議員報告"},{"start":7031.736,"end":7046.514,"text":"對因為畢竟在新北就是無料理嘛然後這個我們要怎樣去把它推廣怎樣當然啦就是要經費嘛那經費我們要怎樣預注包含找新北市"},{"start":7047.274,"end":7058.602,"text":"大家共同來配合,讓這個地方能發展為客家一個里這是一個很重要的,那是一個山區嘛那是我們未來要推動的目標吧沒問題沒問題,我們可以跟鐵縫,跟鐵縫來交通看看鐵縫有沒有需要,我們可以提出"},{"start":7072.076,"end":7095.768,"text":"好的好的好那我們都期待啦那我們未來還是推動一些大廠的就是那個不管是客家大戲啦還是一些子豐車就是來吸引我們一些小朋友大家共同就是用我們刻意的來煽導的方式應該效果會不錯吧好謝謝好感謝"},{"start":7101.909,"end":7111.337,"text":"好 請劉許廷召委謝主席 谷主委有請好 請主委昨天早安 這個"},{"start":7120.771,"end":7146.696,"text":"今天我們要來追蹤幾個之前有追蹤過的題目然後另外問追蹤一個之前追蹤過的題目啦另外問一個新的題目我們今天談的重點是客家這個客語友善環境的一個推廣那就本席的了解啦其實也從客委會第一會期的這個業務報告就有講我們希望這個推動這個企業社會責任倡議語言多樣性鼓勵各個企業其實都要營造一個客語友善的環境不能只有說"},{"start":7147.376,"end":7169.316,"text":"公部門的部分有人來做但企業的部分速度比較慢所以其實過去就本期的了解包含在你們第三會期的業務報告裡面也有寫叫做公式客語無障礙環境補助計畫有補助公部門也有補助民間單位讓他有客語的志工有口譯的設備完善客語的播音等等的一些"},{"start":7170.197,"end":7183.154,"text":"克與友善環境的這個使用的計畫其實做得不錯然後也有一些成果那它的概念當然要有公共化、多元化、普及化跟生活化那我今天想特別問一下在私人企業的這一部分你們現在目前為止你們覺得效果怎麼樣"},{"start":7184.682,"end":7209.679,"text":"當然我們都覺得很不安全面啦很不安全面 但是也要好好在經濟部主持那間興業也要說私營的創意下去談的部分主委你可不可以舉一個例子告訴大家就是說以企業這個客語友善企業的角度來講有沒有幾個比較好的例子可以鼓勵大家做示範的"},{"start":7210.556,"end":7211.236,"text":"哪一家醫院表現特別好?"},{"start":7237.563,"end":7238.405,"text":"你就直接講因為我覺得鼓勵鼓勵做這樣好事的企業我覺得很棒像人家立新醫院立新醫院很好"},{"start":7245.029,"end":7270.079,"text":"好我現在之所以會提這個問題是因為你曾經有叫做多元文化企業的社會責任客語友善企業獎也就是說我願意去花資源去投入去改善環境的這些企業我就給你光榮給你頒獎就像我剛剛講的你要把好的好人好事說出來嘛那我注意到第一屆這111年12月28號有做過一次第一次的頒獎第二屆則是在112年12月28第三屆好像就沒有下文了這個原因是什麼呢"},{"start":7270.864,"end":7274.829,"text":"目前還沒有有新的協議進行所以要感謝委員提醒我們就要主動跟協議那邊聯絡所以等於現在是遇到瓶頸的意思嗎沒錯"},{"start":7287.707,"end":7316.044,"text":"這個我希望還是在課委會在這個地方還是可以加大力度來做處理啦因為我覺得方向是正確的不能停在公部門這剛剛我已經講得很清楚那另外本席做個建議就是說在獎項的設計上他其實因為就本席的了解啦你要突然之間一次到完全到位其實恐怕很困難我想這也是為什麼你會陷入瓶頸的原因嘛因為你要一次把這個整個友善環境佈建起來你可能要花很多的資源多拼很多的人力之類的那我覺得也可以鼓勵企業用階段性的方式來處理"},{"start":7316.804,"end":7334.349,"text":"那換言之你要怎麼樣來鼓勵怎麼樣來補助呢其實你可以把比如說獎助的項目你可以分成階段啊比如說同職獎、銀職獎、金職獎嘛或者是一星到五星等等一方面這個現在已經有在做的他還可以再進步嘛本來我環境一般班60分的我到80分的時候我可以再得獎"},{"start":7335.409,"end":7353.919,"text":"那一般來講我如果從0分先到20分、40分你也可以讓他給予鼓勵我覺得這是把這個整體的門檻往下降的一種方式那我覺得用這樣的方式來推廣這個對於很多企業來講他可能會比較願意去嘗試去營造客語的友善環境請問主委對這件事你建議的想法現在我們在研究在幾個月之前這樣縫縮的口行所以我們請專家好早也要講第一線的行業單位在討論"},{"start":7365.151,"end":7373.56,"text":"那這個部分你們討論的結果什麼時候會有一個比較具體的時間我是很擔心討論討論之後就沒下文啦這跟我待會的問題有關啦來 這樣三張要做得嗎我們要請那些民間的代理來討論一下"},{"start":7382.993,"end":7399.831,"text":"好你們研究一下沒關係會後齁這個時間時間到的時候書面報告送過來好不好讓我們了解說這個事情的辦理的狀況我還是用鼓勵的心態來談這件事情就只要你可以做可以有進步甚至是你可以突破瓶頸這我想對於建構友善的客語環境它會是一個比較加分的項目"},{"start":7400.672,"end":7428.299,"text":"我剛之所以講時間很重要是因為我要問第二個題目也就是有關於這個是本期之前雖然你那時候還沒有上任但本期那時候其實就問了就是有關於企業ESG納入客家語言推動的這件事情這同樣在客委會第一會期的業務報告裡面有講基於推動國家語言文化多樣性的目標這個當初就在1月跟3月邀集了經管會文化部 園民會等等都有來做協商希望可以修正這個經管會可以修正"},{"start":7430.319,"end":7453.619,"text":"上市上櫃公司 企業社會責任實務守則也就是說做哪一些符合ESG嘛那要把多元語言文化把它列入維護社會公益的實踐範疇換言之就是你如果推廣友善環境你也算是盡了一份社會責任這ESG的部分這樣把它納入這個推動項目那第一位其實本期問過之前的主委楊昌正主委就是說我們說那時候講說這個到底有沒有進度"},{"start":7454.079,"end":7471.469,"text":"然後他說那個時候開會對於條文守則的修正其實已經有一定的共識正在跟金管會討論然後那個時候他就講說這個這個一樣跟我講幾個月之內會給我一個交代但是喔 主委這個有時候現實比較骨感啦這一年過去了請問現在辦理的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":7472.648,"end":7487.216,"text":"我跟議員報告,我們內地的事件,就有看到他的題目也有在他的事情,目前我們沒有提條文在南約那裡說的,所以目前就在他的進度沒有提條文卡住了?沒有辦法把推廣語言友善環境納入ESG的原因是什麼呢?是誰在反對呢?或者是說誰有什麼壓力,或是你有沒有困難?"},{"start":7500.362,"end":7507.486,"text":"因為那個說 其實他要去認知施主心 要施主心依然還在占過大部分我們無法用我們窮之力量去跟他約束 故所以會遇到這樣的困難"},{"start":7520.086,"end":7539.472,"text":"就本席的了解你只是把多元語言的環境建構納入也就是說你願意做這件事情你就算符合ESG嘛所以其實你把它納進去企業做或不做還是在他嘛企業願意做他就可以得分嘛那不願意做那他可以做別的項目來符合企業社會責任嘛所以我覺得這個好像不衝突了是不是請你再補充說明一下"},{"start":7542.194,"end":7549.46,"text":"目前還是有這樣的困難,但是本來年餘的條文要加壓的部分推廣的部分,難易也要申告目前是這樣,要加壓也要難易申告出去,所以故事沒有提條文,只是要明列"},{"start":7563.479,"end":7585.289,"text":"好 你一樣把這個東西的推動進度包含你遇到的困難因為我想知道這整個概念遇到什麼樣的阻力啦你又遇到困難也許可以解決嘛 對不對跨部會的溝通也許可以有一個好的結果所以你在推動中遇到什麼樣的困難你打算用什麼樣的策略來調整來因應然後同樣可以完成這個目標你一樣啦 這個會後提供書面報告給本席 好嗎好好 謝謝主委 辛苦了好 我們請市委政委員"},{"start":7602.239,"end":7605.49,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請客委會主委好 請主委"},{"start":7614.878,"end":7637.594,"text":"其實我們非常支持要推展各家文化那也支持應該樂見青年族群可以透過音樂去接觸客語但是文化的推廣不能失焦也不能跟高度政治化的場域綁在一起在您的報告當中有提到說會與大港開唱合作推動客家流行音樂"},{"start":7638.294,"end":7657.758,"text":"那當然除了大港開唱之外還有浪人記 啪啪嘉年華這些那可是在大港開唱今年的活動現場我們看到歌手楊淑雅她在台上說音樂是政治 政治是音樂然後女人是政治 身體是政治身分也是政治而且還感謝現場舉著台灣獨立旗幟"},{"start":7660.279,"end":7671.651,"text":"呼籲大家要支持罷免志工並支持替罷免花蓮團隊加油而且高喊大罷免大成功請問一下這樣的內容是文化推廣還是政治動員"},{"start":7673.249,"end":7689.149,"text":"阿雄,因為民意方面都跟政治有關,也跟政治特別有關我們的所有事情都在文化、政治、沙非之間的圈一體"},{"start":7691.811,"end":7699.295,"text":"所以谷主委的意思是您支持大港開唱的這些團體在整個音樂會上就提出要叩召大家罷免,大罷免大成功對,我們支持用音樂專業來發揮文化的創作所以我們支持他們用音樂來發揮但音樂是來推動大罷免這樣子"},{"start":7718.203,"end":7723.609,"text":"到底嗎?並不必說,我認為尊崇敏是一個人共贏,他自己的政治立場,但是我們的支持也引起了發展。好,請問一下,請問一下國主委,剛剛從您的回答,事實上我覺得這個已經跟政治不一樣了,我們當然支持音樂,我們也支持年輕人,把青年的這個族群的音樂,透過音樂來接觸客語,可是當天我想這樣的一個狀況,"},{"start":7742.267,"end":7764.683,"text":"很明顯的就是在替這個罷團在這個罷免花蓮團隊加油那而且在支持罷免志工我覺得這樣子的狀況在整個音樂活動上面事實上是失焦的那聽起來您好像也不反對嘛那請問一下您在這個我們的報告裡面說會跟大港開唱合作推動客家流行音樂那請問針對大港開唱你沒有補助經費嗎"},{"start":7768.127,"end":7776.431,"text":"Q&A以前有,但是今年沒有,今年沒有播出禁錶,但是也在大趕開場,雖然沒有播出禁錶,但也有請學家的學術、研究人員進行學習,所以我覺得也要再正面的做法"},{"start":7785.333,"end":7802.556,"text":"大港開唱的團體也已經有對外也對媒體聲明說他們不會接受政府的補助這他們對媒體有這樣的說明那為什麼你們在這個報告裡面都還要在特別寫說你們要去跟大港開唱合作這個推廣推動流行客家音樂"},{"start":7803.357,"end":7824.859,"text":"不會讓大港開場,我們要替全台灣我覺得我們相關的團體其實非常多,不要一直只侷限於大港開場我覺得有很多優質的團體,其實我們都可以請他們一起來參與推廣我們客家活動那既然大港開場都說不要接受政府的補助,我覺得我們也不必勒連去替人家冷屁股"},{"start":7825.399,"end":7829.482,"text":"所以這部分我覺得要好好的慎選我們補助的團體那也有很多很多的客家團體其實是很值得我們來補助的因為當然台倉還有歷史還有歷史 還有那個軍隊還有他的營養節做得這樣合作的補助金需的法院的合格的營養營但是他們就不需要政府補助金費嘛"},{"start":7849.694,"end":7865.03,"text":"我說他們不需要政府補助經費啊他們也公開這樣說另外我再想請教一下這個谷主委就是說我們現在立法院在第三會期的預算審查中有凍結了藝文傳播推展預算三千萬元"},{"start":7866.011,"end":7879.233,"text":"那當時是請客委會只要提出詳細的報告經內政委員會同意後就可以動質那請主委說明一下針對我們這個議員推展預算中凍結的3000萬客委會是不是已經有提出解凍報告"},{"start":7880.1,"end":7882.361,"text":"目前這樣結盤有規矩 但是要建設到緊批 緊批在之前的總預算請問主委 我的題目是針對藝文推展預算中所凍結的三千萬元 你們有沒有提出解凍報告"},{"start":7903.866,"end":7905.088,"text":"目前針對客委會我們所提出的凍結案你們有哪一個案子提出凍結報告"},{"start":7912.149,"end":7914.711,"text":"目前都很忙 因為要檢測毒菌費三處醫生有六百三十六億韓盟客廳要省奶的部分所以我沒辦法整堆的部分提出來請問一下何時可以提出解凍?還是有誰要求你們不要提出解凍嗎?沒有"},{"start":7936.183,"end":7953.436,"text":"你們現在不解凍然後一直對外說因為預算被刪預算被凍所以沒有辦法推展什麼業務那我覺得這樣子就是有點自相矛盾我們很樂意你們隨時能夠提出解凍的一個報告那只要解凍報告提出來之後呢我們經過內政委員會同意當然就可以馬上來執行了"},{"start":7955.538,"end":7957.861,"text":"跟議員說明 過去幾天刪除的預算1.9億等級的3.6億 但是在以外有可能含有因為以這一件我剛剛講的預算推展這個議員推展預算這一件的3000萬"},{"start":7973.737,"end":7999.784,"text":"你們提出解凍報告有什麼困難嗎其實也不會影響到你們的預算呢這個部分我覺得請這個主委盡快把解凍的報告送上來我們就會把預算解凍讓你們可以正常的運作那另外就是我知道主委其實非常重視就是有關的課宇的推廣"},{"start":8001.204,"end":8015.716,"text":"那尤其是我想也有各項各項的活動那其實根據客委會公告委託的110年全國客家人口與語言基礎的調查也是我們目前可以看到最新的調查我們的客家民眾整體會說客語的比例已經從105年的46.8%"},{"start":8021.361,"end":8038.365,"text":"跌到110年的38.3%5年掉了8.5那會聽得懂課餘的比例也從64.3掉到56.4%那年輕族群更是斷崖式的流失13到18歲只有11.4%會說流利的課餘19到29歲則只有15.7%會說流利的課餘請問一下針對這個部分我們課委會有沒有什麼方式能夠來協助"},{"start":8050.987,"end":8061.95,"text":"這個這方面的能夠提升我們的這個年輕族群還有兒童能夠能夠把他的課餘能力增加感謝委員對於要修飾下去看去我們目前全面各方面都要去照顧到養育法律去提升學校、社區特別家庭等等不過我要跟委員報告這裡要去跟他報告就我們"},{"start":8080.015,"end":8095.189,"text":"重啟低估的 也會擬言複雜的困難度跟複雜性所以我們也要讓醫生嚴嚴不勞煩請那主委準備來怎麼做因為現在你說低估了這個客語認證的複雜性那請問你們要怎麼來去"},{"start":8097.751,"end":8101.273,"text":"處理這個問題比方說 比方說我們在學校說學校開行業班有一個生育的學校我們就要教但是目前我們所在的社區有的營業沒有實質所以沒辦法教我們要不要變醫生來拚實質 入獄下來所以目前 目前課委會有編預算來培養實質嗎"},{"start":8125.228,"end":8142.337,"text":"不行 不行 我要說的那個不行那不夠為什麼你們不多編一點預算呢這樣編的但是立法院還是增加了很多今年還是增加了很多預算不是嗎但是不行 不行你只要能夠提出來你們所編列的預算是用在對的地方 用在正確的地方基本上"},{"start":8142.957,"end":8149.346,"text":"我想我們之前也講過啦如果你預算不夠甚至也可以追加減啦你要提出來你要有完整的計劃提出來那幾天我們都會提出來 故事還要講喔我們要這樣提出來的意思是說我們要這樣建築其實是嚴嚴不辣的啦我們要提國面 國面上要有國台的尊重就是我想"},{"start":8161.241,"end":8190.263,"text":"因為時間的關係 所以說我想因為其實近五年的課餘能力的認證的總參加人數跟通過率我想你那邊應該都有資料那其中19歲以下的年輕族群的通過人數跟比例有沒有實際的提升還有這些數據是否與政策的推廣的成果相符而且針對各縣市辦理的這個課餘認證班我希望你能夠提供我近三年補助金額參加人數跟課程後續的追蹤成效"},{"start":8190.683,"end":8198.386,"text":"我們共同來去探討一下要怎麼來去解決這樣的事情好嗎好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供好我們會再提供"},{"start":8215.231,"end":8241.979,"text":"他們雖然是民間團體那過去也一直因為被查水表例如用這種言論審查的方式思想審查的方式去干預他們的藝術性的表演所以今年他們也沒有領補助那連沒有領補助都可以被查水表可想而知過去他們是多麼的辛苦那大港開唱過去也一直以來都是非常包容本土文化扶植本土文化的一個音樂祭在這邊一定要幫他們來說明一下好那再來我們請張宏祿召位"},{"start":8246.069,"end":8251.917,"text":"喔好丁薛忠委員丁薛忠委員丁薛忠委員不在我們請張宏祿召委好啦我請主委"},{"start":8270.674,"end":8294.853,"text":"總召委主委早我先這樣子今天好多的委員都問請教你問你為什麼不送解動案什麼我知道身為一個客委會的主委我們在這邊一定要用客家話來回答這是尊重我們的族群你也知道我也算客家人不過"},{"start":8296.636,"end":8314.361,"text":"我拜託主委30秒你用大家聽得懂的國語說一下不然你會造成誤解啊我覺得這一點很重要啦我身為也是半個客家人我真的請你用國語說一下給大家聽30秒"},{"start":8315.62,"end":8321.401,"text":"好跟大家報告我們的預算課會的預算被刪了1.9億那但是還有留一個統刪不足636億要行政院自行調整而這個636億要在哪一個部會哪一個科目下刪多少的預算都沒有明獎那沒有明獎的情況下我們當然沒有辦法送這個解凍案因為"},{"start":8345.526,"end":8372.92,"text":"因為這個是刪除如果客會刪的比1.9億還多那我們的解凍的數字會跟著調刪除的數字也會跟著調所以這個是困難所在好 沈蒙其實你講的客竅話我都聽得懂但今天在這個國會殿堂我們必須還是要對全國的民眾讓他們知道不然到時候你被誤解你就不知道要怎麼去跟誰說"},{"start":8374.176,"end":8401.11,"text":"對不對我覺得再來今天大家也都一直在講要提振客家化啦你像年輕人啦主委你覺得一個文化一個信仰那我們以台灣的客家族群來講就好了你覺得什麼最能夠引起共鳴然後跟大家最容易了解你覺得"},{"start":8403.336,"end":8427.071,"text":"委員指的意思是在台灣還是客家的部分台灣的客家就在台灣的客家然後呢在文化在語言你覺得哪一種是最容易讓人家了解的我覺得是如果讓人能夠了解親近我不是考題啦你放心答應該是跟生活有跟生活有關沒錯跟生活有關的像那個影響民眾最大的OK但我們再限縮一點點"},{"start":8433.274,"end":8445.603,"text":"大概是什麼?譬如說教堂、醫療,還有那個審判,審判裡面的善良、謹記,他的審判裡面的私寵等等。我跟你講,信仰,我覺得信仰是最容易的啦。你看我們的客家,我們的北港的文化或什麼的,其實我覺得在這裡面,"},{"start":8462.011,"end":8488.876,"text":"我一直覺得你那個博工照護站或什麼那不是不好 那很好但我們如果以生活一點你去看台灣有很多的廟宇他辦得非常好大家搶著要去拜拜 要去幹嘛要去讓神明給你加持什麼的那你覺得我們如果要推展客家的文化跟客家的語言我們有一個長期的"},{"start":8489.895,"end":8493.838,"text":"我們從客家的信仰裡面開始來著手 主委你覺得可不可惜?那些好的想法 因爲在信仰那些沒有地盤 我們的一個綜合體所謂的綜合體 如果我寫下去 可能會成為最大的學法接觸到最大的跟學界有關的理想風俗 還有一個風雄"},{"start":8516.96,"end":8537.062,"text":"一個信仰也可以讓主委你說的年輕人去參與那就像剛剛主委你說的在這個信仰在這個裡面客家話講最多啦然後連客家的音樂也可以出來連客家的美食什麼都可以出來那我們可以辦全國一系列的這個"},{"start":8539.602,"end":8547.089,"text":"把錢花在刀口上然後讓大家覺得很有趣然後也是信仰去拜拜就能夠得到神明的庇佑"},{"start":8548.28,"end":8574.173,"text":"然後這個是不分族群都可以去拜拜都可以得到這個神明的庇佑我個人覺得如果這樣子去推廣大家又可以吃到美食又可以接觸到所有的文化然後你的客家幣在這邊花也可以促進這個地方的經濟然後跟廟宗教信仰結合起來我覺得那個是非常快速去發展的诸葛你覺得"},{"start":8575.193,"end":8593.617,"text":"我們可以去討論研究看來是用的盤理的方式 當然要跟新用錢結合我覺得就像主委講的 跟信仰結合 然後我們一次也不要心太大我們有幾個"},{"start":8597.335,"end":8623.941,"text":"客家人常常去拜的比如說三三國王比如說土地公那你也可以先從土地公開始啊從北中南然後各地大的土地公我們今年先來辦這個啊然後北中南然後這樣子一連一連串的活動這樣子我覺得那客家幣在這邊花也讓這些攤販這些什麼的大家可以賺到錢啊去到那邊可以接觸到很"},{"start":8624.821,"end":8636.01,"text":"很實際的客家文化啦 我是這樣建議啦 那主委你思考一下啦齁那再來 剛剛也有很多委員啦 一直在講童話劑啦主委 我不知道啦齁你對童話的感覺 那我對童話的感覺其實它不只是漂亮而已"},{"start":8649.161,"end":8678.741,"text":"以前多少客家人是靠銅花吃飯的主委是不是啊有一段時間這樣對不對有一段時間這個銅花是養活了不少客家人像我們中部苗栗那邊也很多是靠這個啊做茶嫁做什麼的很多啊都是用這些啊主委我們如果去日本賞櫻花你會去看一個地方而已嗎還是去看很多地方"},{"start":8679.563,"end":8707.181,"text":"我那邊就有地方很多地方嘛對不對所以很可惜耶我們台灣的童話劇我一直看看看都給縣市政府辦我不認為那是也不是說他錯啦但就沒有一個一連串的北中南或什麼或是給國外的人來這個童話劇對客家的精神有多重要然後在這裡面我們童話劇可以北中南三天的行程五天的行程"},{"start":8708.376,"end":8723.275,"text":"台灣人也可以去啊外國人你也可以去推銷啊東南亞多少客家客家人對不對我們是不是可以包裝一個這個行程對不對然後陳董事長也在大家互相配合然後去宣傳我覺得"},{"start":8726.132,"end":8746.73,"text":"對不對然後如果你跟我剛講的信仰的又如果時間可以配合到的又可以重複因為我覺得以生活當中啦去推推廣這個客家文化不知道主委你你的感覺我認同對審法地盤人民有感阿故所的委員講的"},{"start":8748.411,"end":8755.015,"text":"旅行 旅遊 信用 文化 環境 全部都結合起來還有食物最重要的還有目前 要不要像這樣推動可以啦 我覺得我們可以試試看啦 好不好 主委好 謝謝感謝 總召委好 謝謝張宏陸召委再來我們請徐欣盈委員"},{"start":8797.103,"end":8797.323,"text":"主席"},{"start":8808.897,"end":8826.592,"text":"現在一個立法院小學堂的考試請秀第一張投影片我們去年在審查今年總預算的時候我們在內政委員會內政委員會的提案表"},{"start":8832.988,"end":8836.55,"text":"主委他會等於是最後的決議嗎所以我在這裡凍結該項預算4億元最後改成怎麼樣"},{"start":8847.734,"end":8852.815,"text":"現在的主決議在報告上很低我想這個應該不是課委會刻意流出去給很多的網軍策略沒有沒有,現在應該會有更快的諮詢所以我今天這個"},{"start":8870.499,"end":8879.962,"text":"立法院小學堂就是希望讓很多的年輕人關心立法院非常好但是要了解真相不要拿提案表"},{"start":8885.464,"end":8891.909,"text":"就拿來說這個是決議好不好我先問你我先問你等一下要不要過去決議以前要出席他跟董燕你也要再拋棄也有可能重申啦我如果讓你說不准兩下"},{"start":8905.731,"end":8933.836,"text":"今年 今年二月開始他拿的所以這早就改了啦好 沒關係 不用浪費我時間不是 還蠻改的部分啦 剛才說的你用版 妳用版安定啦我再測試一下沒有啦 不用啦我們要推敲啦因為那時間有落差嘛那拿走就是原始版啦那沒關係嘛 你現在澄清了嘛提案不等於決議嘛對 而且最後是改組決議只要報告 對不對"},{"start":8935.396,"end":8939.698,"text":"結論是這樣那現在在哪來講有意義嗎?譬如說今年2月、3月、4月到現在講凍結肆意有意義嗎?還是有意義,因為這是一個過程不是過程,他是一直講現在被凍結肆意不要不要"},{"start":8962.069,"end":8967.914,"text":"我現在在講這個案你浪費我很多時間我在講這個案你不要再去講到業務費我在講這個案有凍結事宜嗎最後的結論目前時候提報告好啦提報告嘛提報告沒有凍結那你為什麼不講你就講一下沒有凍結嘛我有凍結事宜嗎現在再答覆我一次"},{"start":8986.167,"end":8988.95,"text":"主決意就沒有凍結的那個你真的搞不懂,連你都搞不懂沒有啦,一個經同意後使得凍結"},{"start":9010.165,"end":9017.469,"text":"沒有啦 凍結預算4億就劃掉啦所以沒有凍結 摸凍結你看 你知道主委一個主委對這個提案 用了我三分多鐘了接下來 我想"},{"start":9031.736,"end":9040.846,"text":"我們客語的傳承還有客家文化的傳承剛剛我們張宏祿召委講得非常好他有說錢要花在刀口上"},{"start":9042.667,"end":9064.013,"text":"但是我們也非常肯定 客核會長期以來做了很多客語推廣的努力包含網路有多元課程 包含客語的認證辦了很多翻譯世界名著 還有培訓了很多公開宣講員這個都做了很多 沒錯但是我們看到的是這個數量"},{"start":9066.734,"end":9093.172,"text":"這個成果用這樣子的量化可是輕忽了它的品質跟我們的最終的目的是要推廣客語所以客語它是一種語言就跟我們不管學台語還是學英語一樣那需要的是環境我想主委你認同吧你只要講認同不認同就是說語言它需要的是環境而且是盡量要融入在生活中您認同嗎"},{"start":9093.612,"end":9116.181,"text":"我的念頭,我念頭,但是要反經,那不是一間人建立下來的對,我知道,當然當然,我沒有說,我沒有再往下講,還沒往下講啦所以呢,我們在這邊希望建議就是說,你量化的指標,是不是可以轉化成客語在日常生活中的使用"},{"start":9117.746,"end":9130.272,"text":"就說你們做了那麼多但是是不是接下來包括今年的預算開始使用的時候你要讓課宇怎麼樣可以真正在每個區塊每個區塊可以討論的環境我們的環境能夠在每個區塊每個區塊你慢慢的從一個區塊比如說南部"},{"start":9138.436,"end":9146.385,"text":"南部他比較少客家莊但是有客家莊的地方客家人的地方你讓他一個區塊把讓這個客語可以慢慢的成為生活然後擴散就像我會哭人但是呢喉嚨會哭的事但每當你哭的時候你會哭"},{"start":9157.598,"end":9175.254,"text":"所以我們應該讓這個客語的這種生活上的應用更多還有包含我們這個這麼多量化的指標大家你在報告中也一直寫然後每年我們也花了很多的預算那我們有沒有促進跨世代的自然傳承"},{"start":9175.854,"end":9200.093,"text":"也就是說要一代一代傳下去那還有就是說我們課語考試認證通過了那是否有代表他在市場在家庭在鄰里之間呢大家可以很自然的用課語來溝通甚至讓更多的人他可能不一定很會講但他已經都聽得懂課語或是可以聽得懂一半"},{"start":9201.354,"end":9224.028,"text":"或者是他講得出幾句客語其實就像我對台語我都聽得懂然後我可以講部分我沒辦法講得很認真對台語但是我聽得懂我可以跟人家溝通那我要講的話我就講幾句我還可以叫我全部講我又沒辦法所以我們的客語可不可以朝向這方面我們來推廣的好一點"},{"start":9225.102,"end":9233.71,"text":"當然圖羅維研所說的沒有錯,其實我們說的抑鬱要罰錢,我們妹妹預算不拿所以它又一點幾又散了你一直要強調這個經費,那我覺得我們現在在談預算很多人談預算的人他沒有關心你真正刻意的傳承"},{"start":9250.939,"end":9268.354,"text":"所以主委你不要落入那個我們客家人我們都是客家人其實所有的政治人物包括所有的這些網軍側翼他來喊喊喊喊到最後我們自己客家人要知道我的客語是不是真的在地方有推廣"},{"start":9268.954,"end":9274.462,"text":"是不是在台灣 客語跟客家文化是保存下來的那會說啊 通生過台灣啦 沒搬兩千啦三萬大便 江山江天啦所以他們現在的進行是 三萬大便啦"},{"start":9286.198,"end":9288.839,"text":"所以客委會的預算每年也增加所以不要老是用這種意識形態好不好我現在講 不然你生命就好了不然你生命就好了"},{"start":9308.55,"end":9318.816,"text":"我們現在課餘 我們花了那麼多錢我們要知道 陸續要寫不勞拜 要寫不勞拜永遠不夠啦不勞拜 因為你那個負責 過困難最後 最後 你會說兩件事 我跟你說你們在報告裡面 你要花 發客家幣客家幣 你要發這個一千塊發四十萬人 等於花四億"},{"start":9338.988,"end":9356.625,"text":"人家文化幣文化幣是給年輕人的成人禮客家幣發給18到20歲的年輕人你這是什麼理由我沒有反對喔我應該先講我支持客家預算但是我更支持是我們所有的預算"},{"start":9357.606,"end":9376.952,"text":"假設別人有更好的成果比你用少的錢或用跟你一樣的錢他有更好的成果你不要一直喊我錢要多然後都不去看成果我們要強調的是你成果要出來所以你花這個4億的客家幣你先說這個是什麼禮人家文化幣是成年禮你是什麼禮"},{"start":9378.952,"end":9380.314,"text":"通過特意認證的你不要給他抽籤嘛"},{"start":9399.856,"end":9416.594,"text":"通過客語認證你就每個人發他一千塊我建議這第一個第二個預計發放四十萬客家幣你卻只有預估三十二萬人前往客庄人家發一千塊一個人就會帶一家人或帶兩三個朋友前往"},{"start":9417.074,"end":9431.837,"text":"你發了四十萬客家幣一人一千四十萬人結果你只預計三十二人次前往喔 這個消息效益太差了 我要請李燕報告李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李燕報告 李�"},{"start":9434.279,"end":9444.302,"text":"但是不要一直說不夠我們要看有限的錢我們怎麼做得最好但是我全力支持客家預算你現在你就說嘛我給你4億發客家幣"},{"start":9452.825,"end":9469.861,"text":"你既然是40萬人你只預計32萬人前往這不太誇張了你報告裡寫的啊本案估計才動你預估就估太少了啦我知道你前面浪費了我很多時間謝謝"},{"start":9477.025,"end":9489.431,"text":"好 中介病 中介病 中介病委員不在 楊瓊瑜 楊瓊瑜 楊瓊瑜委員不在鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在林國成 林國成 林國成委員不在林俊憲 林俊憲 林俊憲委員不在何慶淳 何慶淳 何慶淳委員不在請徐富奎委員謝謝召委 有請我們組委好 請組委"},{"start":9505.677,"end":9511.96,"text":"請問 主委 主委 我要質詢之前 我先看今天第一個標題不是唐山過台灣沒辦點錢 不是唐山過台灣沒辦點錢是唐山過台灣沒辦點錢 主委 這個我看今天早上的業務報告我當然問幫人家張宏祿委員 總廳擔心那些錢沒下來"},{"start":9534.404,"end":9542.276,"text":"若不放棄的話 我想我們作為一個平衡的核桿自體我們要再想想 平衡的建設會不會不堅強注意 若不對平衡的核桿的建設 有什麼看法會不會因為我們的總預算的減少 受到衝擊"},{"start":9550.769,"end":9552.532,"text":"養熊是一定會養熊的 因為目前我們看到我們的醫生3.91% 還有凍結3.62%那些過去以來沒有的狀況 今年最陽春"},{"start":9565.731,"end":9572.756,"text":"這就是合併醫生本來就在國庫市面前清掃的醫生40億已經是清掃的做的事情暗斗 也要學習依賴政策不是依賴公營 沙啡沒有 依賴政策我所謂的政策是隔10天 醫生沒有天然的行業 落差又太大所以我認為40億都可以清掃的錢"},{"start":9594.811,"end":9597.413,"text":"其實做討論做得散但是也要散的途徒,這才是特大"},{"start":9603.397,"end":9630.439,"text":"今天宋伯通主委有討論過像我們園民會 園營協助團的策略度但是依算是我們客戶的記憶比我們還是要自己努力啦可能因為針對我們所有客家鄉鎮的軟硬體的建設還要奉免 包括藝文還要恰恰奉奉可以整理整理以後可以做民宿 做觀光"},{"start":9631.219,"end":9640.786,"text":"其實有些人在那裡學生的有機會多多少少人在那裡提防我們在那裡安居之類的我想主委是用那裡的設施去做"},{"start":9641.658,"end":9652.061,"text":"不錯不錯 我知道這樣提防藥再多的需求提防藥再多的需求所以我提醒大家 醫生很重要的在醫生院所在國上去其實對所有的年齡都不太好對藥發展都不太好我想藥丸藥也有同樣的所有民進黨的立場一定會來支持有拜託主委"},{"start":9671.187,"end":9676.172,"text":"將被刪除含有凍結的部分加進去盤點 讓我們加進去送出來我們加進去努力啦我們希望合格委員會可以發揮的作用改造可以做的事改造 尤其是我們合格的鄉親 因為在交台啦這樣好不好好 感謝委員的支持 感謝"},{"start":9692.313,"end":9714.01,"text":"主委,我想今天我們合格煎炮城的六堆每年公園會創邀一個節慶活動判的規模引入印太,我們也被列為全國合葬十二大的節慶活動之一,我想主委要支持,要服從但是呢,我們調查一些資料,再抽明年補助金額"},{"start":9715.091,"end":9718.353,"text":"沒有改動,差不多兩百萬,其實要兩百萬,要判在法庭還這麼辛苦啦主委,您有看這個事情嗎?我們剛才要緊批,有國稅一事啦,全面"},{"start":9730.658,"end":9733.499,"text":"從今年來,省錢的優惠比去年還要薄所以,那些醫生,說來說去,還是很多醫生如果醫生,他的規模,做這樣的態勢所以,做的支持,我們的企業,一定會支持啦"},{"start":9748.57,"end":9760.822,"text":"主委我們現在台灣我們沒有分北課南課我們國庫課委會還支持我們浪漫台三線像我們的六堆也是我們合格再創造一個場域我們想國庫"},{"start":9764.485,"end":9782.217,"text":"看到學位費,針對我們浪漫台山縣,五、七、十一的金費,這樣投資下去就漏印錢,不然這樣,南部的學館員,讚美羨慕啦,看到這樣實在是天壤之別,我認為,主委要請教南部的學館員,針對他們的落差,要怎麼處理,讓他們入隊的學館員,更有平衡感啦。"},{"start":9789.601,"end":9795.424,"text":"莫不愧是羅曼陀三先生大出名聲請問在六對法定的合作我們可以由國台的法庭出來目前在國內當中包括法庭、媒體的宣傳等等我們可以從六對和特區選舉進行"},{"start":9815.433,"end":9839.706,"text":"我們是拜託主委啦吼,我們依依我們委員會主委拜託的講其實因為我們現在在屏東攀佛洞,我們還集中在一個鄉鎮攀,我們有八個合格鄉鎮,讓人家要行一套科目,我們有法律啦吼,我們希望八個鄉鎮總會有針對不一樣地方特色,攀起它的藝文活動,甚至我們再度合格的邀請,"},{"start":9841.467,"end":9851.715,"text":"他來創業做大店長的計劃我們應該要做更好的基盤主要來支持好嗎我們在各方研究來支持所以最後我們說"},{"start":9854.053,"end":9864.598,"text":"也有委員提到客家畢業的事情有提出一個質疑問題國勇司他提的是跟屏東縣兩個部署的對象共用沒有共用國勇司是年滿20歲屏東縣是18到20歲客委會也沒有共用18到20歲另外共同的部分就說"},{"start":9879.505,"end":9888.597,"text":"117年的課餘認證含有合格的合課餘的家庭成員我們想中央同地方擁有無窮用的補助的年齡的問題問題出您來"},{"start":9894.873,"end":9900.957,"text":"要在過程中進行討論和辯論所以有請提防政府來討論的時節我沒有強調,我沒有強調解脫所以目前全國的統一不能有良的版本"},{"start":9911.804,"end":9913.706,"text":"沒有另外的版本 一個版本 要不然是18歲還是20歲?18歲到20歲 最多18歲到20歲 沒分因為我看到這樣 因為時間 工作時間這樣 本來要等一個年齡層後來又再加 加到18歲到20歲"},{"start":9936.989,"end":9940.873,"text":"另外希望客家美業可以運用到合格的商家等方有這個意義但是目前合作廠商只有790多件品統案發只有61件應該不老闆"},{"start":9952.247,"end":9955.569,"text":"不太白,因為有要求政府等於要三萬億元頂價要求主要他要用的條件,他要講學,所以要接講學的導資,聽那個因為數位支付"},{"start":9970.937,"end":9978.041,"text":"所以要有TWQ來實驗人家的言語法律所以可能有時他用的條件沒有法律符合,沒有法律掩蓋所以要普遍來,我會再去請人家的代表再去加強"},{"start":9986.533,"end":9994.958,"text":"主要來說一定要加強,不然量壓的錢沒辦法用,沒辦法落實人家的健康經濟對啦,是說健康經濟能夠活絡,還要再衝壓,但是一定要深入到人家的偏鄉的地方,加強的輔導這樣好嗎?是,一定可以,一定可以,這是我們自己的要求,我們自己的自我要求好,說到這裏就結束了,謝謝"},{"start":10014.403,"end":10032.181,"text":"好 羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員不在林儲贏 林儲贏 林儲贏委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在林思敏 林思敏 林思敏委員不在蔡宇宇 蔡宇宇 蔡宇宇委員不在葉遠志 葉遠志 葉遠志委員不在我都不在 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陳永康委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":1969.926,"end":1993.118,"text":"那我們接下來介紹與會的官員這個我們先從國防部部長顧立雄先生長務次長楊基榮中將全民防衛動員署署長李定忠中將總督察室總督察長張元勛中將參事石文榮中將政務辦公室主任陳道慧中將"},{"start":1999.445,"end":2026.337,"text":"政治作戰局副局長張維新少將軍備局局長李文祥中將主計局局長謝其仙中將軍醫局局長蔡建松中將戰略文化司司長黃文綺中將資源文化司司長藍靜婷女士法律事務司司長沈世偉中將"},{"start":2028.547,"end":2056.806,"text":"整合評估司司長苗慧芬女士國發採購事主任趙雅萍中將人事參謀次長室助理次長曾安國少將情報參謀次長室助理次長朱惠民少將作戰及計劃參謀次長室助理次長彭國周少將後勤參謀次長室助理次長林鄭中少將"},{"start":2059.657,"end":2068.163,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是助理次長林齊輝少將訓練參謀次長是助理次長徐永祥少將陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮中將空軍司令部參謀長李慶然中將後備指揮部參謀長薛淵全少將"},{"start":2089.774,"end":2114.784,"text":"憲兵指揮部參謀長呂正芳少將入軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤少將自動電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥少將軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁少將電訊發展室執行長林正偉少校國防大學教育長李承忠少將"},{"start":2117.034,"end":2142.566,"text":"國家中山科學研究院院長李士強中將今天因為有法案所以我們還有其他列席官員的名單國安局人事處林組長退府會退署副處的處長羅馬可內政部警政署保安組副組長王秉瑞法務部法治司司長謝志明"},{"start":2145.742,"end":2166.421,"text":"入委會法政處專門委員陳振興權敘部退輔司專門委員邱德明教育部學生事務與特殊教育司專門委員鄭文堯海洋委員會海巡署人事室專門委員鄭黃斌行政院人事行政總處給予福利處專門委員陳慧芬謝謝"},{"start":2169.96,"end":2180.247,"text":"好,接下來就要剪刀割刀了那就要起始成功好了,對不對?好我的剛剛那一張紙"},{"start":2204.793,"end":2220.805,"text":"本日會議審查本院委員沈伯陽等17人離聚陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正案的草案我們現在提案的委員做說明首先請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":2229.178,"end":2244.024,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我這邊簡單的來做這一個提案的說明那這個呢 那我簡短快速因為這一次的修正案大概有三個重點第一個就是因為"},{"start":2245.568,"end":2264.397,"text":"這個服役條例在1995年制定之後呢有關這個喪失勤領退休給予的規定他當時在這個維持這個內亂外患有期徒刑確定沒有宣告緩刑會喪失那個權利但國安法在2019年增訂了5-2明訂也一樣的東西以後呢"},{"start":2265.777,"end":2291.743,"text":"2022年國安法全文修正的時候已經把全文移到第13條了內容都沒有改變但是當時國安法在修正的時候呢這個服役條例沒有跟著修訂所以今天第一件事情我覺得比較重要的就是希望把這個服役條例跟國安法對齊所以這個應該是比較沒有疑問的地方那如果是那麼簡單的話今天應該也不用詢答所以最主要還有另外兩個疑義希望今天大家一起來集思廣益"},{"start":2292.643,"end":2318.848,"text":"第一個就是因為這是跟國安相關2020年有這個反滲透法的修正那是為了要防範境外勢力確保國家安全穩定等等之類的那這個喪屍的這個給予的規定裡面沒有反滲透法所以把反滲透法納進來這個部分應該是有其必要國安法那邊也沒有放那邊我有提出另外一個草案那今天我們放的是這一個"},{"start":2320.234,"end":2336.934,"text":"這個服役條例的這個部分那第三個呢第三個部分呢指的是這個暫停的部分因為現在可能會有一些追回困難所以這也是今天也希望大家集思廣益的一點就是呢目前來講我們是參著公務人員退休之前服役法第24條"},{"start":2338.536,"end":2352.529,"text":"還有政務人員退職撫恤條例第13條這兩個然後去增訂這個呢停止請領退休的這樣的一個規定但是還是有一個稍稍的不同就是我剛剛念的那一個公務人員退休這個之前這個撫恤第24跟政務人員的第13條呢"},{"start":2356.593,"end":2374.244,"text":"他們是有處罰就直接就停止了申請退休跟請領的權利那我個人覺得呢這一個的對財產權的侵害是稍微比較大一點所以我在這邊的做的方式呢只是規定以領取的暫停而已所以有稍稍的不同沒有到那麼嚴厲那再來就是說呢這個"},{"start":2375.549,"end":2396.964,"text":"明定這個軍官事關與領授的這個期間呢目前我放的就是在這個內亂外患尚未判決確定或者檢察官為不起訴還起訴處分也還沒有確定的那一段期間呢等等的其他還有像國安法國家疾病保護法跟勤工法這個我就不多說新法院判處有期徒刑以上還沒有確定的時候停止"},{"start":2397.805,"end":2417.539,"text":"他這個領受之權那如果都說是沒有被判的話呢就還會再補發那我有看到法務部這方面的意見認為說那個起算的時間可能還要再相著一下那還有一個是我還沒有放到草案那也希望今天可以在這一個大家集思廣益的期間確定的就是因為我們現在國安法第二條的規定"},{"start":2419.339,"end":2438.871,"text":"這個所謂的組織等等之類的其實在法院判的時候都很難成立所以我們會有很多的這些共諜案到最後是不只說輕判而已有些是根本沒有辦法判根本沒有辦法判像我們在以前兩岸條例九之三會有一些妨礙國家尊嚴什麼等等的行為我們在服役條例"},{"start":2439.531,"end":2466.602,"text":"在對於現在國安法的法規範不足的狀況之下因為除了喪屍跟暫停以外中間還有一個類型這個類型就是剝奪但只剝奪一部分那我們有沒有必要把現在法規範還不足的地方呢有一些他去做了一些妨礙國家尊嚴的行為但他並沒有符合現在國安法第二第三條也就是他們第八第九條的處罰規定的時候有沒有必要把它列在這一個"},{"start":2467.663,"end":2481.236,"text":"暫停他一部分退休給予的方式我覺得這可以是今天討論的部分那我提案說明到此為止 謝謝我們後面請顧部長報告"},{"start":2492.062,"end":2511.583,"text":"主席 各位委員先進首先感謝各位委員對於國家安全政策及軍人忠誠義務的關心與指導請在此表達敬意為維護國家主權及自由民主現任秩序大院什麼樣委員等17人提案600公斤"},{"start":2513.781,"end":2536.52,"text":"軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案整體修法方向本部竟表贊同後續將依照將參照國家安全法等相關法令內容一併檢討修正本條例的對應條文那接續由本部職員規劃司司長藍靜婷女士就法案的內容及本部的嚴處意見的實施報告謝謝"},{"start":2546.676,"end":2567.357,"text":"主席 各位委員先進大院沈博洋委員等17人拟據《陸海空軍軍官事觀服役條例》以下稱本條例部分條文修正草案請報告如後一 委員提案內容沈博洋委員等17人為維護國家主權及自由民主憲政秩序原拟據本條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2568.078,"end":2591.93,"text":"明定军官是官犯内乱罪外患罪经判刑确定或犯国家安全法下称国安法陆海空军刑法下称军刑法违反效忠国家职责罪章国家机密保护法下称国安法国家情报工作法下称勤工法反渗透法治罪判处有期徒刑以上之刑确定者丧失领受退出给予之权利"},{"start":2593.431,"end":2610.613,"text":"修正內容第24條第一項增修訂軍官事關在現役期間不發退出給予的情形第一款明定犯內亂外患罪經判刑確定者第二款修訂犯國安法第七條第八條之罪"},{"start":2611.826,"end":2637.511,"text":"增定犯軍刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章反滲透法第三條至第七條之罪經判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定二 第二十五條第一項配合第二十四條著修文字三 第四十條增定軍官事關與領受退出給予期間停止其領受權利情形一 第一項第六款犯內亂或外患罪"},{"start":2638.812,"end":2667.691,"text":"所涉犯罪尚未判刑确定经检察官为不起诉或还起诉处分尚未确定或还起诉确定尚未期满二 第一项第七款犯国安法第七条第八条之罪或军刑法违反效忠国家职责罪章国民法第32条至第34条勤工法第30条至第31条反渗透法第3条至第7条之罪且经法院判处有期徒刑以上之刑尚未确定者"},{"start":2668.647,"end":2677.852,"text":"三 第三項第一項第六款第七款停止禮售原因消滅後未經法院判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定者發放機關因應相關規定補發退出給予"},{"start":2681.672,"end":2698.448,"text":"第41條增定軍官事關與領受退出給予期間及其遺族上司領受權利之情形第一項第二款明定因犯內亂外患罪經判刑確定第一項第三款犯國安法第七條第八條等罪"},{"start":2699.309,"end":2722.48,"text":"或軍刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章 國密法第32條至第34條 勤工法第30條至第31條 反滲透法第3條至第7條之罪 經判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定三 第一項第四款 因現役期間犯刑法堵職罪章 貪污自罪條例之罪 經判處徒刑而未宣告緩刑確定"},{"start":2724.021,"end":2739.391,"text":"4.第二項第三款,犯國安法第七條第八條之罪,或國密法第32條至第34條,反滲透法第三條至第七條之罪,經判處有期徒刑以上知情確定者,不得申請遺屬一次金或遺屬年金。"},{"start":2741.184,"end":2768.886,"text":"三、國防部意見大約沈伯陽等17位委員提案修正本條例部分條文就軍官、士官在現役或領受退出給予期間犯內亂、外患罪經判刑確定或犯國安法、軍刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章國密法、勤工法或反滲透法部分條文之罪經判處有期徒刑以上知情確定者列為喪屍、領受退出給予之要件整體修法方向本部盡表贊同"},{"start":2771.388,"end":2787.625,"text":"2.針對軍公教及公營機關構人員於現役現職或退伍、退休、退職後,觸犯特定罪名,經判刑確定,使喪失期勤領退伍、退休、退職及與之權利,以致領者應以實行犯罪時開始計算追繳。"},{"start":2789.207,"end":2806.52,"text":"本部宪政配合相关部会演绎朝向法院有罪判决时于确定判决前及先行暂停一定比例的推出给予日后若经判决无罪确定再行补发以避免四判刑确定后使办理停波追缴衍生执行困难"},{"start":2807.962,"end":2824.616,"text":"4.解语本部将参照国安法等相关法令修法内容一并检讨修正本条令对应条文尽速呈报行政院转送大院审议其有效遏制不法确保国家安全以上报告敬请各位委员先进参考指教谢谢"},{"start":2827.918,"end":2854.587,"text":"好 謝謝齁 那其餘機關的報告我們就直接採閱書面資料比較省時間齁那這個法務部的報告這一個這個就大家直接翻閱那再列入公報記錄那現在開始詢答今天本會委員6假2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘那我們10點半這個發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案呢請在10點半以前提出大概11點左右可以處理齁那現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":2866.991,"end":2867.373,"text":"你好 我們請部長"},{"start":2878.735,"end":2902.384,"text":"部長最近台灣發生很多跟共諜相關的案件那其實從去年開始我們正式上任之後那我也不斷的針對安全核可的問題來去提醒我想請教一下吳釗燮國安會秘書長他擔任第一任國安會秘書長的時間點是在什麼時候那部長您擔任國安會秘書長的時間點是在什麼時候"},{"start":2904.291,"end":2926.997,"text":"我擔任國安會秘書長應該是在2020的520然後到2024的520所以在這段期間我們國家的安全核可的機制跟吳釗燮秘書長擔任秘書長第一任秘書長的時候的安全核可機制有沒有什麼變化還是大概是一致的"},{"start":2928.227,"end":2941.412,"text":"安全核可的機制在你擔任的時候跟吳釗燮擔任的時候那個時間點有沒有什麼變化那個時間點的變化有沒有把那個安全核可的機制有沒有做一些更新或者是加嚴類似這樣子"},{"start":2944.016,"end":2965.365,"text":"應該沒有在國安會的期間應該沒有什麼沒有嘛所以說大概從2016年到2024年的這段機制這段時間的機制大概跟過去大概是一樣那我自己是在2016年到2017年年中是在國安會認識那在這一年半中因為我被核可的密等是比較非這麼機敏性的"},{"start":2965.825,"end":2989.534,"text":"那我大概是被核可大概安全背景審查大概做一次大概做一次一年半那但是就我所的我所知道的資訊安全核可裡面的一個揭秘層級是由國安會諮詢委員就是每一個國安會諮詢委員他自己的辦公室是由諮詢委員去來核可說這個是密等的接觸等級他可能是機密或者是普通或者是極機密等等"},{"start":2990.194,"end":3005.328,"text":"那國安會祕書長他應該也有這樣子的機制在他的辦公室裡面那我這樣問的原因是因為我不針對人我們也不針對個案我們針對機制我也不想說誰要因為我覺得再講下去也沒有什麼意義但是機制我們必須要做一個查核"},{"start":3006.331,"end":3022.606,"text":"媒體的眾多媒體的報導我相信他們也都經過證實就是這位核心的前助理他在八年只有一次的查核可是在八年一次的查核當中他已經經歷過國安會跟外交部甚至是其他的重要的機關跟委員稍微說明一下他並沒有"},{"start":3024.268,"end":3034.997,"text":"我並不知道他在之前有沒有在國安會但是我在國安會的時間他並不在國安會沒有我沒有在講這件事情我沒有在說你要負這個責任所以我現在講機制喔部長你先不用那麼緊張我沒有要今天不討論人我們討論機制"},{"start":3039.321,"end":3068.126,"text":"我不知道你2020年2024年這之間他在不在這不是重點重點是說他這一位這一位核心前助理他經歷過國安會他經歷過外交部可是在這八年他只有經過一次的查核像這樣子的他有可能未來我不知道假設這是沒有在這個調查局沒有把他調查到的話那他可能經歷的部會會很多種那理論上來講經過一定的時間點他揭秘當然層級一定會慢慢的上升嘛"},{"start":3068.686,"end":3093.277,"text":"他這麼長年的在國安會也好或者是在外交部也好怎麼會只有一次安全查核我想請教一下部長在您旁邊的這些機要跟信任的幕僚人員是不是也會有固定的時間查核還是也是之前的機制八年來有可能只查核一次在國安部的部分我們查核的部分期限是三年查核的有效期限是三年所以每三年要查核一次"},{"start":3093.797,"end":3109.451,"text":"那上次我們在質詢部長的時候部長有提到說未來重複的核可更加的把頻率增高來因應共體的威脅是有可能的部長有沒有考慮未來因應這麼多的國家安全案件來去增加他安全核可的頻率"},{"start":3111.332,"end":3134.107,"text":"我們是這樣子,我們在2月13號已經訂辦了一個國軍生命人員安全調查的作業規定它這個主要的就是說涉及到絕對機密跟密集有不同的查核的深度一般來講就是說像你可能絕對你要碰到絕對機密我們的這個"},{"start":3135.151,"end":3143.048,"text":"整個查核對他期間要長達七年都要進行一個查核"},{"start":3144.38,"end":3172.329,"text":"我覺得對他的查核是有在他的七年之內的這個期間之內來進行一個比較深度的查核這樣子所以頻率的意思是頻率的話原則上還是有三年但如果他有發生的這個揭秘等級要提升那麼或者職務異動或者要晉升或者要將派任這個專案派護專案任務的話呢"},{"start":3173.749,"end":3202.048,"text":"我們會再進行謝謝部長我再強調一次當初我們在質詢的時候部長就有提到說重點是他接觸的機密而不是他的職位的高低OK我們理解但是包含這位核心助理也好或者是我們最近蠻多起的共諜案件他們的接觸的機密就是說在他們被核可比方說我當初可能是被核可為接觸的密等只有普通或者是機密但是他"},{"start":3203.209,"end":3220.743,"text":"確實在這個國安會秘書長室所以他你可能把他合格為他接觸的機密是只有機密但是其實他甚至可以接觸到最高機密這就是我所擔心的部分這個機制有沒有辦法來去做一個看有沒有什麼樣更新的方式就我所知因為我現在已經不在國安會了"},{"start":3221.743,"end":3246.201,"text":"我想我只能夠說就我在國安會的期間之內確實比如說我在擔任國安會秘書長的時候就誰會接觸什麼樣的密等那都要經過我們的一個他會呈上來然後我們會來勾選他接觸的一個機密的範圍這樣是對所以說秘書長我說這個部長或者是說秘書長他們是來自己再去做核可的"},{"start":3247.179,"end":3268.354,"text":"他自己來去勾選的對,在國安會的時期,但是在國安部的話,那就是由我們的軍事安全總隊來負責對,我的意思是說我希望有一個機制,而不是以個人來決定說這一個人他大概就是普通所以我們在國安部的部分,我剛如同委員所講的就是說我們現在要仿美軍的做法,就是說"},{"start":3269.054,"end":3291.897,"text":"我因為一方面去年做了一個全面的查核之外,我們今年就揭秘的這個等級的部分做不同深度的查核那剛剛也提到了,原則上是三年,但如果他揭秘的這個等級提升,或者有植物異動等等的這些狀況的時候我們還要再進行查核,大概在國安部的部分是這樣"},{"start":3292.898,"end":3319.467,"text":"好 非常感謝我希望這些機制能夠被導入到我們最高的國家安全的相關機關而不是以人來直接去進行勾選可能為了審視為了要偏移形勢他直接把他的機密等級直接勾選普通或者是機密而已但是其實上他可能會接觸到的東西是更加的機密性或者是他與首長的關係是更加的機密性委員的意見我想"},{"start":3321.008,"end":3327.636,"text":"我們國安部的已經就我們國安部所在進行的這個部分我想我們再跟"},{"start":3328.545,"end":3357.091,"text":"其他的國安攤...謝謝,謝謝部長,我希望好的,你們如果有一個比較好的方案的話請記得跟其他的國家的單位來去分享再來針對造船的部分那最近美方針對造船其實是有造船總局等等這些相關的方案都出現就是針對對中共的他們造船能力之大他們已經開始非常警惕要確保美國的海軍有足夠的船艦的能量他甚至有定額是300多艘嘛"},{"start":3357.651,"end":3381.455,"text":"那現在來看的話造船的這個根據CSIS的這個圖就是中國的造船人力大概是全國全球的53%那接下來就是韓國跟日本那我們台灣作為一個盟友我們也是海洋國家不知道有沒有什麼樣的可能性可以跟美方合作在造船或者是修復船隻的這些能力上面不知道部長有什麼看法"},{"start":3385.368,"end":3387.649,"text":"我並不覺得我們適宜在公開的場合來討論這樣的一件事情"},{"start":3399.914,"end":3427.172,"text":"我們會後再跟委員能不能做報告部長這個是策略型的甚至是宣誓型的我不是說你要到幾哨是說你懂我意思嗎因為這個包含日本已經有許多的這個日本的工業大學東京東工大還有東京大學的教授都不斷的強調說日本要主動積極的作為提案方加強跟美方在造船業上面的合作"},{"start":3428.345,"end":3451.472,"text":"那我們台灣有沒有這個意向或者是這種能力我只能回答說我們有這個意向那很好非常好我希望我們有這個意向因為這是一個包含供應鏈也好我們的能力要把它總和起來這樣才可以跟美日韓菲律賓我們第一寶鏈的這些國家才能夠有一個更完整的合作方向謝謝謝謝趙委員"},{"start":3454.473,"end":3456.894,"text":"好 謝謝關天 謝謝部長那接下來有請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請郭部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":3476.358,"end":3492.971,"text":"是 委員好部長好 部長面對這個境外勢力的滲透我們可以說是這個無孔不入五花八門就連這個辦共諜案的這個憲兵隊呢也都失守了那面對這麼嚴重的這個國安問題所以相關的法令我們必須要重新的來做檢視重新的來做檢討所以這次我們沈伯陽委員才會提出了這個陸海空軍"},{"start":3504.16,"end":3526.116,"text":"這個服役條例的這一個修法那當然內容剛剛部長您在國防部在做報告的時候有講得非常的清楚就是明定這個軍官士官如果犯這個內亂對外患罪經這個判刑確定的話就是有這個有期徒刑以上的這個罰則還有這個喪失領受這個退出給予的這個權利"},{"start":3533.021,"end":3541.867,"text":"那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條"},{"start":3559.178,"end":3585.339,"text":"那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係的這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈博洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備"},{"start":3589.082,"end":3617.544,"text":"那當然不是禁止他們去 而是要去做這個報備可是呢 到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋請問"},{"start":3618.525,"end":3641.468,"text":"部長您這邊的看法呢我想光部我們就光部本身來做應答可能比較世界一點那現在在您呈現的那個我跟委員報告就是說93條的這個部分這個是另外一條這個是這個邱志維委員之前也有提出來我再補充一點好了因為你直接要進入到這個議題"},{"start":3642.689,"end":3669.111,"text":"那我剛才提的是沈博洋委員所提出來的就是說民意代表或是這國會助理都應該到中國去其實就是還是要報備這部分那像去年的話像邱志維委員因為這兩個像這個兩個法案一我都是連署人所以我們當然會非常的關心像這邱志維委員去年也是針對的第九條之三跟第九十一條其實也有做出了一些修法可是呢還是被擋"},{"start":3669.811,"end":3689.541,"text":"到目前為止 我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面來排審 好像說有被赴議那現在就是說 好像我們這個兩個人民條例裡面有提到就是說曾經在擔任過國防外交或大陸事務或是國安相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員他才會被規範嘛"},{"start":3690.521,"end":3703.016,"text":"可是我們現在看到的很多的例子就是說其實到大陸去然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上像這個少校像去年所發生例子前海軍艦長退役的這個少校呂詩麗她在中國參加這個"},{"start":3709.099,"end":3726.921,"text":"珠海的這個航展的時候他就提到就讚嘆這個解放軍的這個武裝然後揚言要讓台灣的觀眾說哇我們中國有多強如果他是少將的話他就受到兩岸人民條例第九條之三的規範可是因為他是少校到目前為止是無法可管的嘛對不對"},{"start":3728.11,"end":3750.65,"text":"跟委員報告就是說九之三條的這個部分那麼現在我們部會之間的分工是由就九之三條的部分是陸委會來主責我們國防部會協同參與我們提出的意見那我們提出的意見就是說凡是在領月退縫的這個部分因為還是在領"},{"start":3751.536,"end":3773.102,"text":"越退縫的這個期間我們認為可以以這個還有越退縫的這個要件把它修改進去但是現在因為主則的部分是陸委會所以最後應該是跨部會還要再做個協調就93條的這個部分那陸委會現在也正在跟我們在討論當中"},{"start":3774.731,"end":3792.438,"text":"所以說我們的相關的單位針對九之三其實已經進入到討論的階段了對不對就是這樣子因為剛剛我們照理有提到說其實很多的國安的這個法令其實都是重新要做檢討我們要重新來做齊頭式的這個修正所以我們現在所看到說去年"},{"start":3792.978,"end":3806.754,"text":"去年就已經提出來了所以事隔半年了我們還沒有看到就是說或許有怎麼樣的一個排審那目前面對國內的局勢說實在是非常的險峻我們可以看到說從總統府到地方等等"},{"start":3808.455,"end":3831.371,"text":"這個中共的這個滲透是非常的這個恐怖滲透的這個讓我們難以想像像這個時候我們不來修國安法什麼時候再來修這個國安法那過去呢在野黨一再的這個阻擋甚至呢有在野的委員甚至還要取消這個吳斯懷條款讓我們覺得很不可思議目前國家如此的這個嚴峻居然還有在野黨委員提出就是說還要再放"},{"start":3833.413,"end":3854.084,"text":"我覺得這個部分呢這個是沒有辦法讓人家接受所以我們也希望說各個國安單位應該就是要皮繃得比較緊所有的國安的法條都應該拿出來重新做一個檢討那哪一個法該原的該怎麼樣處理的就怎麼處理不然的話說實在的這些人跑到中國中國去而且都是退役的這個軍人"},{"start":3856.525,"end":3882.385,"text":"或者是他們都還領有國家的這個興奉居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的這個武裝真的是讓人家覺得不可思議所以這部分的話我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情那再來還有一點我們看到就是說今年我們二月的時候我們海軍有傳出就是說有志願役的這個士兵在不知情的職下被他的母親辦理中國的身份證的這個事件"},{"start":3883.766,"end":3902.517,"text":"那國防部呢說要來做全面的這個盤查我想了解一下目前的進度我們到今天這個3月20號給我的相關的一個數據就是說我們現在清查的結果呢是應該是他現在有"},{"start":3903.542,"end":3926.528,"text":"有分成護照、身份證、定居證跟居住證那現在查到的話是大概都是屬於居住證居住證居住證居住證居住證還不到沒有定居證跟身份證或護照的狀況就是屬於居住證的證那多少人呢目前"},{"start":3928.089,"end":3953.502,"text":"如果志願役跟一年期義務加四個月軍事訓練役加起來的話在3月20號的數據是62位有到62位是目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位現在就是說這個服役期間的話原則上就是說不可以分花做情報蒐集資訊通信航空飛行艦艇跟研發類的這個單位"},{"start":3955.103,"end":3977.624,"text":"那也不擔任這個新式武器的裝備操作所或者主觀的水源跟從事戰情中心參謀業務或者其他這些機敏職務或工作這樣那這62位原先都不在你剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎還是他本來是在這些單位我們有做調整目前我們的處置是怎麼樣的一個處置方式"},{"start":3978.28,"end":3996.798,"text":"您是說原來不在原來這62人他們所屬的這個單位本來就不在基民的一些單位裡面嗎沒有因為我們志願役的部分呢實際上只有兩位志願役是兩位是因為義務役的部分跟軍事信任役的部分按照兩岸條例的規定的話他"},{"start":3997.839,"end":4025.599,"text":"不管如何他都還是會有還是不能免其義務因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍再來我們之前有提到就是說在服役的時候我們要來開始實施不具雙重國籍的切解措施這部分什麼時候要來做實施您是說雙重的對雙重國籍這個部分雙重國籍的部分資源域的部分是不是我們要來實施這個部分"},{"start":4026.885,"end":4040.017,"text":"我們也一樣就是如同剛剛報告的就是說他從這個二月以來要有一個簽訂一個切結嘛"},{"start":4043.576,"end":4067.797,"text":"所以這個其實已經在實施了嗎?對對對,已經全面清查非常感謝,因為今天時間的關係,那質詢就到這裡面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透的情況,我想各個國安單位都是要嚴正以待好,以上謝謝好,謝謝謝謝美琳委員,謝謝部長那接下來有請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":4083.395,"end":4107.185,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請顧部長有請部長,謝謝部長早陳委員早部長,面對中共滲透的挑戰,日趨嚴重我們反滲透的相關工作就更顯得重要我想根據國安局的報告資料當中,在2020年"},{"start":4110.325,"end":4136.372,"text":"到今天累計我們有159個人涉入這個共諜案的遭起訴那其中退役的軍人大概95人佔這個比例60%那對於這個部分我想就叫我們部長我們國防部的相關分析報告近期內中共對於我們國軍的這種滲透的樣態還有對象接觸的模式有沒有什麼樣的一個改變"},{"start":4137.858,"end":4159.716,"text":"我想是不是先請說個說明委員好 我是政產局副局長 跟委員做個報告在過去來講 中共對我們的滲透方式往往是以災務所謂的地下錢莊來做一個著陸為重點但是今年以來 透過黑道幫派 也透過公務要組織 民間社團所以它今年特別比較多元化 大概是這個狀況"},{"start":4162.18,"end":4185.551,"text":"他現在滲透的對象也不限是以往都是以軍官或是高階或是一般的軍官為主那現在一般的士兵好像也都是滲透的一個重點對象所以我想說對於我們這個監察院所提出的部分我們在上週的時候部長您曾接受這個採訪對於共諜滲透的這個部分"},{"start":4189.273,"end":4202.621,"text":"是無所不在因為國軍在這個保防教育的這個相關的功效我們有87%的共諜案是由這個官兵主動檢舉來查獲的"},{"start":4205.492,"end":4233.909,"text":"我們國軍整體的這個保防人力編制雖然是每年有在逐年這個調整但整體這個保防的線源不僅未能達到編制的緣額反而這個編線的比率逐年在下降那我想請教就是目前我們國軍各單位的這個保防人力是否充足那有沒有穩定編線的這個比率有無再提升的這個需要"},{"start":4234.637,"end":4258.096,"text":"跟委員報告,我在今年的1月1號已經核定新增保防人力54位足夠嗎?那現在的,我想我們會陸續來招募這樣子的相關的這些保防的幹部跟保防所需要的這個能力還是不足?"},{"start":4259.377,"end":4285.71,"text":"我們希望逐步的來提高到我們應該要到達的一個所需要的能力的一個程度那我獲得的訊息應該是說我們應該可以逐步的增加當中好,那我們這個保防工作也是非常重要那為了避免受到外界的一個干預我們是不是應該要維持它的獨立性來提升我們保防的這個效能"},{"start":4287.633,"end":4307.782,"text":"隱蔽性獨立性獨立性是保防人員一向具有他相關的獨立性如果您實際操作面上看起來他真的相當獨立因為他很多事情都是要直接跟我做個報告直接對我做報告"},{"start":4308.402,"end":4325.771,"text":"好,那我們這個保防教育的相關業務,是結合我們單位任務的一個特性參與我們國軍這個保密工作的教則來做相關的一個規範,那也是有計畫有重點的在做宣傳"},{"start":4327.132,"end":4343.746,"text":"並且結合我們每週的舉光日的教學,還有每月的保防教育,還有每季的軍事官團教育來做宣教那目前辦理相關講座或是訓練的密度,是否有精進的空間?"},{"start":4345.207,"end":4372.028,"text":"呃我們有有應該是已經強化了有關呃相關的一些呃這些教育班隊的一個密度了這個詳細的是不是說明一下好跟委員做報告針對專家學者的講座在今年我們也針對中將級主管以上的單位我們呃由各單位我們建訓他的一個人選針對有兩岸情形研究一個專長以及向調查局他本身辦國安案件相關的一個專長的"},{"start":4373.168,"end":4394.8,"text":"一些高階主管來進行授課那另外中將級以上中將級以上主管不是中將級以上的人員就是這個單位是中將級主管的單位我們就來做一個順利的講座另外我們也結合我們舉官隊的定義教學邀請我們的兩位的戰略顧問以及檢察總長來針對國安的滲透以及對國家的忠誠"},{"start":4399.702,"end":4428.016,"text":"來做一個我們作為做一個那個舉光日的一個宣導教育好另外我的瞭解是他們自己本身也要建立的他們這個相關的能量所以也開設了一些班隊包括這個偵房的專精班情搜的專精班網路的這個情搜班等等還有搶綜合的技術的專精班等等這些我想大家都正在努力的建在進行當中好是"},{"start":4428.716,"end":4452.893,"text":"我們這個部分單位比較容易接受到這個機敏的相關資訊若能夠有一個比較完善讓內部人員的這個安全查核的這個機制能夠更加完善建立分級管制的一個標準我相信是能夠減少一些漏洞在此也請我們國防部還有國安單位能夠通力合作一起來防範"},{"start":4454.754,"end":4475.861,"text":"另外在上個月巡打的時候曾請教過部長吳仁基是否可以納入教召的一個項目部長您也表示說應該要納入會以朝向人人都會操作的目標來運行但是在近日的一篇媒體的報導當中"},{"start":4478.982,"end":4499.2,"text":"指出目前我們在部隊當中無論是器材或是師資都是不足的情況那我想請教部長就是對於我們師資的培訓還有訓練的量能否再改善進一步來提升通過訓練的一個比例我們是"},{"start":4501.474,"end":4530.433,"text":"委員好 我是權動署署長在這裡跟委員做個報告首先就師資培訓的部分我以我們14個縣市後備旅來講我們今年度開始就在做師資培訓的部分到目前為止我們依照提供的教育訓練流程我們分成18個梯次分別要建立850元的一個無人機操作的師資總人"},{"start":4531.814,"end":4559.863,"text":"那在裝備的部分17個縣市後備旅來講的話我們在今年7月份分成兩梯次來獲得是小型的兼徵型的無人機上半年會獲得425架年底之前會獲得425架總共會有850架的無人機那在獅子種人以及營區裡面的訓練場地以及這個裝備的部分我們目前都在同步的建置"},{"start":4560.723,"end":4585.467,"text":"以上報告所以就是要到年底的時候才有辦法把設備都準備齊全可是師資方面因為我們現在志願役的部分他學了一個月就要教新兵那自然是無法教得很透徹只能傳授基本的一些基礎那對於這個部分我想師資的部分你設備齊全了師資不夠的話也不行"},{"start":4586.956,"end":4611.016,"text":"報委員 我就有兩個部分向您報告第一個 我們在今年的151的入伍訓練已經新增加了一個無人機的基礎操作的課程那在這個部分的師資也都經由我們的無人機訓練中心完成相關的師資培訓我們也實際上到各接訓的單位去輔導檢視在入伍接訓的部分師資是足夠的"},{"start":4611.696,"end":4633.965,"text":"那另外第二個部分在常備部隊有關於我們的無人機建制那不管是商售或是軍售的無人機建制我們整個都是含裝備帶訓練所以這個部分在施肢也不會有問題 向您報告好 那我想另外就教就是說我們有沒有可能可以跟這個民間來合作借重民間的這個專長在這方面"},{"start":4638.327,"end":4666.67,"text":"不管是在訓練或是未來我們所培訓的相關課程由民間來協助我們有沒有可能有我們現在有在進行是詳細的我們現在目前有跟民航局在做借機相關的無人機然後基礎的訓練我們在陸軍的南側無人機訓練指揮部裡面會來做基礎培育那屬於中高階的部分我們會進入到民航局來做相關考證的措施以上報告"},{"start":4667.363,"end":4686.083,"text":"好,那我們相關的這個政策目標,務必要掌握到基層官兵執行的一個狀況即時進行來做這個調整,對於這個後備軍人的專長還有任務編組我們這部分也要請我們國防部持續來精進,讓我們所有教召的這個效益可以提升"},{"start":4686.724,"end":4703.181,"text":"那我最後再請教一個問題就是我們漢光演習的部分以往都是五天四夜那近期內我們調整為十天九夜比以往的這個騎乘整整多出一倍那在這個實兵這個教召的"},{"start":4704.386,"end":4707.608,"text":"人員大概有兩萬的後備軍人參與演習將整個演習的過程裡面我們有全程戰鬥從事十二大戰訓的任務來驗證"},{"start":4720.396,"end":4738.184,"text":"那我想就教就是說在這個部分我們漢光演習我們人員增加然後時間增加的情況之下我們所動員的相關的裝備是否能夠因應大規模的這種動員的情況的人數可以支應我們既然能夠招訊我們這相關的裝備當然都要齊備這個部分"},{"start":4744.926,"end":4761.98,"text":"委員好 後備指揮部參謀長報告那我們現在針對有關教育召集所有的專備都是有配合的人數然後來實施籌補然後也有都能夠充足因應所以我們人員增加然後天數增加都沒問題都沒問題 都沒問題好 那"},{"start":4763.103,"end":4771.994,"text":"那另外就是我們現行的一個規定,接受新制14天的一個叫召者他的日資數額為,這個軍官是1350"},{"start":4779.724,"end":4801.265,"text":"1350元那士官是1250元士兵是1050元那我想鑑於這個漢光演習的任務特性以及演習的時間拉長的因素是否我們對於漢光演習的這個教召人員額外研擬日資數額可以增加的可能性有沒有可能"},{"start":4806.54,"end":4828.425,"text":"法委員我想跟委員做個報告您剛剛所報告的是屬於義務役的那在當初規劃的時候他就已經有加成在比加成在裡面那自願役的話他是依照他時間的他實際退伍的階級然後按照日薪來予以支付的"},{"start":4828.985,"end":4855.879,"text":"所以這一段所以已經加成了對 是 之前已經加了1.5倍應該是有加了1.5倍好那自願意退如果是屬於自願意退伍然後被招回來的那就是按照他退伍實際的這個日薪來計算這樣好 以上謝謝部長 謝謝我們參謀長好 謝謝俊宇 謝謝部長那接下來有請林柱英委員上台質詢"},{"start":4871.495,"end":4874.638,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請我們顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝林委員好部長好部長我想今天其實修法真的是召委選在這個時候來討論陸海空軍事官服役條例的修正草案真的是正是時候啦我想面對這個"},{"start":4896.295,"end":4922.07,"text":"共軍或者是共諜不斷的透過軍中來做滲透我在過去的質詢當中也曾經關心過包括這個退役的這些軍官們他們的退休金的問題追回的問題其實我也都一直在追吹撫惠這個方面的部分那麼其實今天的修法剛好其實讓外界可以更關心那就是我認為中國或者是所謂的威權國家步步逼近的情況底下"},{"start":4922.93,"end":4946.275,"text":"其實對於我們來說真的是一個蠻大的壓力喔那麼現在中國滲透我們的樣態非常多一個最新的當然就是士林憲兵自拍投降影片然後還有就是第一階的軍官遭到了這些所謂的用關鍵的技術來換取情資等等這些部分跟樣態PTT怎麼回事"},{"start":4947.511,"end":4967.464,"text":"那麼過去呢其實我也主張就是要把他們的退休金收回那麼不只是今天的修法甚至於如果判國我要加重刑罰所以本席過去一直非常強調的就是軍人必須是國家的軍人不只是在軍中甚至於在他們的"},{"start":4967.964,"end":4972.149,"text":"私底下的所作所為都非常的重要這個也是之前當我接到翠友講到說我們的空軍的副參謀長是不是在所謂的群組當中的發言不符合需求"},{"start":4983.001,"end":5004.966,"text":"那麼我也看到了空軍跟國防部的相關的說法這個部分其實都證明了其實只要國軍不論是檯面上或私底下都非常的重要喔那麼部長我來請問你一下就是有關於在修法加重判國的部分其實還有另外一個我提出來的陸海空軍刑罰部分條例的修正草案"},{"start":5005.686,"end":5022.727,"text":"其實不是只有他們的退休縫應該移除甚至於所謂的預備犯或預備投降的作為是不是你也考慮要把他修法進來因為就像我剛剛所講到的這些樣態比如說他拍投降的影片又或者是他因為"},{"start":5024.028,"end":5038.707,"text":"本身有經濟上的困難所以說他去交換了這些所謂相關的情資那麼除了今天的修法之外接下來如果有預備投降的行為是不是也應該要補破網來修法"},{"start":5039.808,"end":5067.007,"text":"跟委員報告,我們現在在行政院審議當中的這個《陸海公軍刑法》24條它除了加一項就是對這個敵人為投降的這樣子效忠的這樣子的一個表示的時候就本身就會構成違反《陸海公軍刑法》那另外投敵的部分我們加了陰謀犯跟預備犯的部分"},{"start":5067.577,"end":5087.302,"text":"那現在已經在行政院審議當中好所以言下之意這個行政院在審議當中的話那就表示有沒有可能在這個會期可以加進來因為本席認為目前我們包括今天要討論的法案再到後續的它其實需要一個完備跟整備那麼這個部分您在期程上面您認為這個會期可能嗎還是說要到下個會期"},{"start":5093.146,"end":5108.573,"text":"行政院我們當然是希望列入優先法案國安部的立場是希望列入優先法案所以行政院如果審議完畢之後我們當然希望儘快提出來好我們其實在這裡的話我相信本委員會的委員會希望能夠"},{"start":5110.013,"end":5138.046,"text":"這個法案能夠緊速放進來討論另外第二個就是有關於無人機的部分我想在過去我們在委員會當中常常講到的是打造國際民主的供應鏈那麼對於台灣來講其實這個非常重要尤其是現在我們在跟美國進行所謂對等關稅的談判的過程當中美國非常在乎那就是台灣你選在哪一邊是中國的這一邊呢"},{"start":5139.106,"end":5158.08,"text":"還是美國的這所謂民主陣營的這一邊那麼當然我們知道我們有許多的這個軍購的武器是透過美國這邊來提供我們但是如果我們能夠有自己的供應鏈那也是一個非常好的那麼打造無人機供應鏈的這個部分呢我們在落實國防自主跟打造"},{"start":5159.441,"end":5179.176,"text":"去紅供應鏈的部分國防部現在如何來推動研擬強化國防自主呢在有關於技術轉移跟落實的部分其實本席有提了兩個修法而這兩個修法當中我們都希望是能夠把一定的這個所謂國防自主當中的武器以及技術轉移要能夠放進來"},{"start":5180.037,"end":5207.393,"text":"那麼另外一個就是其實在台灣高手在民間過去我們都講說在台灣的AI的部分我們要找黃仁勛回來那蘇之鋒能夠加入那麼本席發現其實我們在我們自己國人所擔任負責人的這樣一個公司他跟美軍都有專案合作我不曉得部長知不知道這一間耐能晶片公司"},{"start":5212.407,"end":5221.756,"text":"要讓專業的來是不是我不曉得中科院能夠講到什麼程度他跟我們也有一些合作的關係他承接我們的一些技術的轉移"},{"start":5223.068,"end":5246.815,"text":"所以說基本上國際美軍所使用的這間公司我們也有把它找來合作如果是真的機密的部分可以不用回應因為其實本席會提出這一題是因為我發現高手真的在民間其實有很多是我們台灣之光創辦人他可能真的都是台灣人就像黃仁勳一樣只是"},{"start":5247.335,"end":5263.254,"text":"他可能在國外成立公司那這樣子募資是比較容易的那麼其實國人常常都會講說我們台灣的研發能力是不是不夠那麼當我們要跟別人合作的時候人家是不是不願意那麼我比較想要了解的是以部長或者是我們"},{"start":5264.015,"end":5279.02,"text":"中會院的角度怎麼來看就是當我們真的有民間高手的時候那我們有多少的合作或是有多少的協助那麼或是有多少的這個部分是可以在合作之後又能做技術的轉移部長跟委員報告我覺得我只能夠說到這樣的程度就是說"},{"start":5288.464,"end":5305.889,"text":"美國在政策面上面他希望我們民間中科院跟美國的這些相關具有關鍵技術的公司三方能夠合作打造一個去紅的供應鏈"},{"start":5306.969,"end":5322.839,"text":"那這樣的一個政策經由這樣的確定之後呢他們鼓勵相關的公司來台灣那不管跟民間也好那當然就國防部來講特別是跟中科院也好有相當多的這樣子的一個"},{"start":5325.243,"end":5342.559,"text":"這些共同研發也好,技術轉移也好但是我想詳細的這個部分,如果委員想要了解的話,我覺得我們可能只能私下再去跟委員做一些說明跟報告,可能不宜在這個地方做過多的說明"},{"start":5342.819,"end":5355.652,"text":"好沒有問題喔因為這個畢竟也是我們重要的技術我會提出這一點當然最重要的就是川普現在他也在所謂拼他的這個整個國家整體經濟啦那麼當然我們事實上我們的軍售有高達219.5億美元現在是錢擺在那裡但是沒有"},{"start":5366.107,"end":5381.847,"text":"交貨這是這樣嗎還是說這只是媒體報導上面所提出來的應該現在沒有這樣子的一個高達這樣的經驗我想那個鼓勵處長也已經說明過了詹惠寺要不要再說明一下好"},{"start":5383.249,"end":5409.452,"text":"報告委員,我是站官司司長跟委員報告在過去幾年因為受到疫情影響的國際供應鏈目前已經逐漸在恢復正常所以委員也可以看到從去年開始我們主要的武器裝備已經陸續貨裝那卡托研究所報的這個219億的這個數字事實上跟我們目前實際掌握的是有相當大的落差大部分的案子都已經正常在走"},{"start":5409.912,"end":5435.439,"text":"好所以說其實是因為受到疫情影響那麼在這個部分其實交貨的部分也沒有問題現在變成只有這可以講到什麼可以講的講就是說不能講的我們可以會後來說是我想應該是說大部分的都應該有看到比如說"},{"start":5437.166,"end":5445.194,"text":"因為大家會過去講托斯2B,我們就公開講托斯2B已經交運了"},{"start":5446.817,"end":5468.994,"text":"現在F-16手架已經在辦理交機,那我們希望當然在明年的年底之間還是能夠如期交互那其他的包括海馬斯跟M1A2我想進度都正常好,我想其實在有關於兩岸軍事合作上面啦,不論是武器面或者是訓練面台灣無庸置疑的絕對會是美國的優先夥伴"},{"start":5470.715,"end":5496.241,"text":"一方面剛剛我前面問到的我們國防自主然後我們在技術上面能夠獲得更多的去紅工藝鏈之外我們自己有能力自主那麼另外一方面當然就是不要讓外界覺得說好像我們其實是有努力在爭取軍購但是有什麼地方卡關了那麼今天在部長或者是相關的說明當中我們也感受到就是其實國防部在這兩個部分都有持續在做努力好謝謝部長好謝謝"},{"start":5501.291,"end":5530.405,"text":"好 謝謝主委委員 謝謝部長接下來有請王定宇委員上台質詢好 請顧部長顧部長 謝謝另外偵探局軍安總隊那個麻煩上來一下是 王委員部長"},{"start":5532.708,"end":5554.791,"text":"共諜當然我們深惡痛絕我也相信99.99我們的國軍弟兄不管在職或退役都是忠於國家中共是我們最大也是唯一的威脅像中共解放軍效忠就是背叛國家那任何團體當然都有壞分子那最近我們這兩天看到這個消息"},{"start":5556.259,"end":5582.203,"text":"樣態媒體都有報了我不重複就包含了在士林的憲兵隊海軍的威海營區穿我們國軍的制服在那邊揮舞新旗拍影像向解放軍效忠不想在案子你都知道嘛這個案子有的起訴了我相信有的是我們我們掌握的我第一個"},{"start":5583.319,"end":5603.765,"text":"我想了解是共諜在發展組織特別針對軍方因為過去一年有軍事有國軍背景或退役背景的大概佔了六成的涉犯人員他吸收的模式看起來常常跟財務有關係利用你財務上有困難或者需要用錢我來幫你吸收起來"},{"start":5604.878,"end":5631.069,"text":"那這幾個看起來拍了五星旗效忠中共傳到用telegram傳給他的對接口單位就可以拿到三萬塊幾萬塊錢那部長或者我們政戰局對這樣的犯罪樣態有沒有什麼反制或者因應的做法我想是不是先請軍事安全總隊是不是檢討說明看能夠"},{"start":5632.632,"end":5645.53,"text":"簡單一下,我今天有好幾個題目要問委員好,我是保保安全署長跟委員說明,就針對憲兵這次案子的部分已經由憲兵指揮部針對所屬211以及相關的"},{"start":5649.154,"end":5675.192,"text":"涉及機敏的部隊已經都實施完成了社民安全查核針對有故意人員已經都調整限職也針對他們所接任機敏職務的標的也都請憲兵指揮部針對相關這個我們媒體都看到我不是要粗魯的打斷你我每次聽到處理層也都一樣我現在只問一件事情我們每個單位每個部隊都有陣戰人員"},{"start":5676.826,"end":5703.313,"text":"在那邊揮舞五星旗 還可以拍影片偵探局在搞什麼偵探局在搞什麼我十年來支持你們這個案子一個直接接一個 層出不窮我們自己當過兵之後 你在營區拿五星旗揮舞部隊有沒有爛掉我再還有一個案子台南新化某營區職業兵"},{"start":5707.605,"end":5717.852,"text":"一位下士一年多被弄到去跟錢專借錢回家騙媽媽的錢後來我一查單位主管班長介紹他去借錢的這部隊怎麼辦啊政戰局在搞什麼事後該辦用軍法辦重辦槍斃我沒有話講"},{"start":5733.154,"end":5754.704,"text":"可是一而再 再而三的發生它到底是結構性的問題 組織的問題還是管理上我們有什麼漏洞部長 威海營區耶士林憲兵隊耶如果這些單位都還可以在營區揮舞五星旗那我們其他單位呢 山上的雷達站濱海的部隊"},{"start":5762.179,"end":5780.712,"text":"部長這件事情聖誕單位要不要就責?怎麼管的?我想這個部分也是經過一方面官兵檢舉那一方面也是透過自查的方式我們主動移送應該是在112年的時候的事情"},{"start":5781.437,"end":5810.225,"text":"那所以我們就這個部分我想我們也因此就陸海工軍刑法的這個部分呢現在呢直接就以說對敵人為效忠之表示呢就直接定在陸海工軍刑法24條我的憤怒來自於我們我們都相信看到很多國軍弟兄辛辛苦苦盡忠職守出一兩個這種老鼠屎你要解釋多久然後洩露了什麼東西信任一旦瓦解"},{"start":5811.588,"end":5827.862,"text":"信任一旦瓦解 我們就中了對方的計嘛說實在 他會為五星旗打仗穿人幹嘛可信任 軍民關係的信任一旦受損了在我們的社會 我們的防衛任性 我們的部隊"},{"start":5831.684,"end":5857.559,"text":"你很難拿到社會的力量所以我在這個題目另外一面我是希望部長跟相關單位研擬一下軍安總隊是我們法定的情報機關他目前是大概根據勤工法裡面唯一沒有領到這個勤工加給的該給他給他該給他編制給他編制可是當他沒有辦法把職責發揮出來的時候我們該要求就要求軍安總隊應該贊成吧我們應該這樣做啊"},{"start":5861.508,"end":5878.618,"text":"我現在是一方面增加軍三輪總隊的一個員額,另外我們也擴大了防美軍的部分,就是說揭密的程度,依照他揭密的等級,我們有不同深度的安全查核"},{"start":5879.258,"end":5905.501,"text":"那軍安總隊的這個作為一個法定的情報機關的那個佳績的部分呢監察院在這個去年的九月也有一個調查報告提到這一個部分那這個部分我們會進行來研議我們國防預算也許會擴充擴充除了裝備重要以外人也很重要讓我們的國軍住得好一點"},{"start":5906.582,"end":5921.27,"text":"用的各種好一點 生活的品質好一點該給他的勤工家籍就給他該屬於他的戰鬥家籍就給他回過頭我們要求他忠於自己的國家忠於台灣2300萬我們的納稅人"},{"start":5924.691,"end":5949.267,"text":"這是相對的所以部長我希望盡快看到有關軍安總隊源而增加任務的強化或者他該增加什麼樣的能力或者是科技的裝備另外對於勤工加擠的部分也希望在近期內可以看到你提出來能不能這樣做我們需要跟行政院協調那行政院當然我們也幫忙發聲嘛我們要求的時候我們也希望"},{"start":5950.674,"end":5977.183,"text":"他做這個工作就該領這份心想這個是應該的另外我要請教部長其他兩位先請回另外這個漢光41號我們目前看到有揭露的當然內容有些新的部分那在高階幹部兵推的時候那是二月份那你旁邊座位有一個有一個座位表就出來那個是J-5嘛那一個是八九龍少將美國海軍陸戰隊屬於印太司令部的J-5"},{"start":5978.343,"end":6005.769,"text":"另外在這一次漢光41號2023吧之前沒多久他還是駐韓聯軍司令四星上將這位羅伯特艾布蘭那這次也來當顧問是我們漢光演習的編制的顧問那我先請教第一個問題就是說這個揭露的過程是否為台美有默契的行為還是不小心被揭露的"},{"start":6007.046,"end":6020.875,"text":"我想台美之間的這個軍事交流我們都循低調務實的方式來進行我們並不沒有任何的雙方有"},{"start":6022.938,"end":6045.213,"text":"有所謂的默契要公開我們都不予評論部長你也待過國安會啦你現在在國安部台美之間這樣的訊息我們都盡量低調那通常有一個原則美方揭露就可以揭露或者台美之間有默契揭露才揭露揭露也是為了嚇阻一些事情或者形塑一些事所以這兩個訊息的因為連續啊二月份然後現在四月份"},{"start":6046.328,"end":6069.981,"text":"我不太認為我們軍方或者我們相關擁有這個消息的人員會連續犯兩次錯所以這個揭露我個人認為是也許是默契下的行為揭露之後就讓各方去揣測我們就保持低調那這個四星上將擔任我們漢光演習的我們的參謀總長的顧問部長就你了解的情形這是史上第一次還是以前就有"},{"start":6072.833,"end":6090.118,"text":"我想我們這些都屬於常態性的台美的軍事交流都會按計畫來執行那為了汲取國外的軍事經驗我們透過雙方的交流可以去增進訓練的效益那提升國軍的整體戰力那其他對這些個案我想我們還是不予評論啦"},{"start":6091.078,"end":6108.597,"text":"所以基本上這個你不予評論啦因為就我去看的資料我以往沒有看過這情形那不管是巴結隆他負責Policy Strategy Plan負責跨國這些演訓或者是這個愛布蘭羅伯特愛布蘭他來他不能自己一個人來"},{"start":6111.496,"end":6129.892,"text":"就是說你要了解一個軍演或者雙方盟軍的合作或台美軍事的合作我們樂見因為這對台灣安全更有幫助那有隨行的觀察員嗎那可以回答就可以回答不能回答我尊重我想詳細的狀況私下再跟我們說明因為將軍不帶兵"},{"start":6133.092,"end":6162.672,"text":"其實這個用處不一樣那來到這邊一個是現役的J5一個是剛退沒多久駐韓的聯合部隊跟韓國部隊都歸他指揮那他只是一個人來看跟帶一群觀察員而且是現役的觀察員來看代表的意義跟功能又不一樣那我尊重這個我們可以私下溝通我最後請教這一次我們漢光電腦兵推從過去的8天7夜增加到14天"},{"start":6165.173,"end":6187.302,"text":"13頁那增加這個時間它的原因是什麼增加了哪些科目因為我們是從這個灰色地帶的一個洗澡的這個想定的狀況所以想定歧視點往前推了往前因為現在很多狀況它都是用灰色地帶的洗澡來作為一個"},{"start":6189.062,"end":6214.031,"text":"就像現在很多針對性的一些軍演這些狀況我們必須要隨時掌握他們的一個意圖所以我們把這個時間要往前部長我了解因為我聽你講過這個我的意思是說那也就是從原來的8天7夜變成14天13夜因為我們把想定的狀況提早嘛所以增加的時間跟科目是跟灰色地帶的coercion有關嘛"},{"start":6215.25,"end":6234.172,"text":"灰色地帶的洗澡可能會升級到有可能如果有關鍵的疫情增活的話會演變到一個高強度的時候我們要如何來進行立即的備戰操演然後提升加強戒備有沒有增加一些以前到現在沒有的科目"},{"start":6235.394,"end":6252.43,"text":"歷年來都會有增加相關的在科目裡面因為相關的這些透過這些模擬系統我們來進行推演之後呢我們會在七月的漢光的實兵在裡面再做驗證我的意思是說你增加了快一倍的時間"},{"start":6253.979,"end":6264.499,"text":"相當長,因為我們往前拉也往後拉對,所以應該有多一些新的科目是有沒有什麼科目可以讓國人知道更安心一點,或者你不辯講我也尊重"},{"start":6266.886,"end":6288.067,"text":"是連山註冊跟委員報告除了我們前面的灰色地帶硬處以外在整個從應急戰備到全面戒備之間中間我們要相關包含海空的聯合作戰以及包含地面作戰的部分我們都有把"},{"start":6288.747,"end":6316.222,"text":"拉長然後去做這個電腦的你這樣講大概就是增加了一些因應的措施嘛那我們海巡的納入啦或者是民防的納入那跟友盟之間的互動我想大概是這一次漢光41號增加很多新的東西啦那些時間關係我們有的私下溝通那謝部長我會把那個新化這個單位他那個用你知道民間透過主管館介紹士官來借錢"},{"start":6318.751,"end":6325.288,"text":"這會出問題 我會把資料給各位所以我們一定會來精進這些相關的這些查察好 謝謝"},{"start":6328.887,"end":6353.213,"text":"謝謝庭園委員 謝謝部長各單位在詢答的時候記得靠近麥克風一點怕公報的聲音會錄不到在馬文君委員上台諮詢之前因為目前我們有收到臨時提案一案因為要收到10點半以後所以我待會算了一下大概就是我 就是沈博洋委員諮詢結束以後我們來進行處理臨時提案接下來有請馬文君委員上台諮詢"},{"start":6367.346,"end":6368.348,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":6377.655,"end":6380.437,"text":"是嗎 委員好部長早部長剛剛有委員剛好提到了王委員也提到就是說在我們漢光41號電腦兵推其實再過幾天其實就要結束了那這兩週的電腦兵推其實在過去時間沒有那麼長那這一次號稱是最長最硬的"},{"start":6403.849,"end":6418.103,"text":"一次電腦兵棋演練可是我們看到的部分就是說所有的陸海空三軍那邊參加兵棋推演的全部都管制休假對不對我們這一次的您講的是電腦輔志指揮所的演習嗎"},{"start":6424.178,"end":6430.162,"text":"因為電腦組織指揮所的演習是主要在聯合作案能力的機制還有指揮官的決策還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為的部分所以主要都是著重在指揮官層級的部分"},{"start":6445.063,"end":6448.966,"text":"所以指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的尤其我們是在對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證也是驗證國防部在暫時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作可是我們看到這一次時間把它拉長所有的三軍全部都是管制休假可是只有國防部跟中央單位雖然那邊可是卻可以正常休假"},{"start":6475.148,"end":6476.749,"text":"只有輪值的留下來對不對橫跨六日的部分目前只有參演的部分參演的我剛剛提到了齁就是說其實只有參演你今天既然把它拉長你又號稱最長最硬那既然所有那邊的因為你們對三軍基層的是非常嚴格的喔"},{"start":6498.38,"end":6501.305,"text":"所有只要那邊的全部休假都管制而且即使他沒有參與演練他只是不只輪值的要留下來而已可是我們看到剛剛部長也提到這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系"},{"start":6513.624,"end":6519.308,"text":"因為其實三軍每年都在演陸海空軍三軍他們平常也知道自己的任務跟位置所以其實他們平常也比較駕輕就熟反而比較不清楚的就是我們現在我們所有的像國防部或者中央單位的這些高師幕僚他們的指揮參謀作業因為到戰時的時候你必須要到十大戰略單位"},{"start":6538.2,"end":6559.836,"text":"就是因為你平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡所以你透過這樣的演練你才要熟悉這樣的位置可是我們卻在六日的時候我們都可以正常休假對不對這一次委員一直在講那個國防部的指參的這些人員嗎對你講可是他如果是要屬於指揮所的人員他沒有休假啊"},{"start":6568.053,"end":6589.445,"text":"都休假了,部長你再去了解一下,雖然你有參與,很清楚的知道,其實是有,都沒有休假嗎?所以有參與,那邊的有沒有休假?那邊的有沒有休假?部長,讓他們講清楚好了,那邊,只要是那邊的"},{"start":6591.806,"end":6596.707,"text":"包委員我是陸軍司令部常務長我就實際上的狀況以我們陸軍司令部而言我們司令部的幕僚雖然沒有在整個的目前所謂的指揮鏈裡面但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部的我們問的問題很簡單這次那邊的剛剛提到的這些國防部還有中央單位這些高司幕僚指揮參謀這些他們在"},{"start":6620.752,"end":6643.761,"text":"六日有沒有正常的休假那邊的都沒有休假那邊的都沒有休假確定那邊的都沒有休假但我必須跟委員報告我們有一些特殊事故的可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧我只要說你那邊的都沒有休假包括所有的這些但是有特殊事故的他有權責長官可以做一個特殊的報告"},{"start":6644.281,"end":6669.007,"text":"特殊事故我們不會特別去追究因為你現在我們一直講演習視同作戰你讓所有的都是高強度的作業可是我們知道的訊息如果有可能就有人要負責好不好部長如果這個是正常的休假那邊人員有正常休假要有人負責好不好因為你們今天在這裡公然的說都沒有嘛"},{"start":6670.083,"end":6674.287,"text":"都沒有正常休假嘛對不對我的了解應該是那邊的人在這個這個電腦輔助組織所的這個病退期應該是不會"},{"start":6679.952,"end":6704.563,"text":"不會有休假的狀況沒有正常休假沒關係我們掌握的是有那如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有那如果有發生這樣的事情是不是有人要負責因為我們需要探討並不是要追究責任可是當你在這裡說的是不符事實的時候那就責任就要追究了好不好那會後我們再跟委員再來請教好"},{"start":6706.908,"end":6722.478,"text":"謝謝 那接下來我們就今天的這個修法內容部長您是人權律師對於我們所有的權益不管它是什麼樣的身份背景其實它都應該要受到所有的一些保障"},{"start":6723.118,"end":6728.42,"text":"那我們今天看到有很多 我們一直在強調很多軍人可能觸犯了像共諜啦 或者相關的這些刑法對於國安造成影響的部分這個我們都認為其實應該要嚴格的去做一些處置可是我們看到今天想要修的這個權益"},{"start":6747.845,"end":6758.346,"text":"今天修法的內容是針對軍事官上司領受退出給予的權利那在這裡要請教部長我們的願板出來了嗎"},{"start":6759.837,"end":6778.453,"text":"跟委員報告這應該分兩部分一部分是屬於這個有關那個退出給予的部分那有關一部分是對敵人效忠表示對敵人為那個也就是"},{"start":6780.014,"end":6796.824,"text":"兩岸人民關係要九十三條的那個部分啦不是對敵人為效忠表示就是九十三條九十三條是陸委會負責那另外退出基地的部分他牽扯到的有幾個法有一個是國安法的十三條有一個是部長我知道齁 那個那這個部分是有因為"},{"start":6797.504,"end":6815.451,"text":"就法務部已經內部討論跨部會討論就是依照法務部對於國安法的13條的修訂的這個結果其他各部會包括我們的服役條例等等還有退伍費的部分那麼就配同等配合來進行修正這樣"},{"start":6816.431,"end":6823.934,"text":"不是我們到目前沒有看到院版的過去國防部只要院長院版沒有提出來或者國防部沒有主動提出來我們幾乎都是暫緩去討論或者去執行的像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案軍人權益保障條例退役軍人就業促進法軍券住宅優惠條例想要這個"},{"start":6839.66,"end":6843.961,"text":"還有一個國軍退出一官兵輔導條例這個就是最簡單的就是上校子女的教育補助的這個部分當時大家提出來的時候包括我們執政黨在野黨其實大家都認同應該要有一致性可是那時候的一個理由就是說院版還沒有提出來所以就各自討論了"},{"start":6860.706,"end":6864.849,"text":"現在我們看到今天的這個條例院版也沒有提出來我們雖然軍人可能有觸犯到一些相關的一些像共諜的案子可是我們看到現在民進黨高層包括府院黨立法院所有的都已經被滲透而且非常的深入而且非常的廣泛甚至它是核心中的核心這個對大家來說其實聽到了都是"},{"start":6889.103,"end":6896.009,"text":"覺得非常的驚恐他甚至比其他的相關的一些軍人的作為因為有一些是士兵有一些是士官那相對的軍官其實他們所掌握的機敏性的資料或者他們的作為反而都是比較"},{"start":6904.817,"end":6921.51,"text":"可能是限制性的或者局部性的可是我們看到的這些涉入共諜的這些高層其實他是非常嚴重他甚至面對所有的國安的問題所有的面向所有的政策所有的外交事務其實都已經涵蓋在裡面"},{"start":6924.312,"end":6933.06,"text":"相對的我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分可是我們看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵這個號稱天下第一營還有士林憲兵隊這個原本要抓共諜的自己都變成共諜"},{"start":6941.468,"end":6943.77,"text":"或者像資通電軍或者海軍飛彈快艇等等的這些士官其實他們整體的薪資也不低可是他全部都被滲透我們從不管你是執政黨也好或者府院高層也好或者立法院也好或者軍中也好其實被滲透的這麼深這麼廣"},{"start":6961.741,"end":6987.618,"text":"其實我們應該要去探討的是到底為什麼發生這樣的原因第一可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識第二個就是他的中心思想像我們在很多現代史你都不教事實上它就是延續性的你讓大家清清楚楚明明白白我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想我們要怎麼樣讓我們的軍人"},{"start":6989.679,"end":6993.081,"text":"去愛我們中華民國這個國家其實才是重點不然你再加薪或者你再嚴苛的法律都沒有用它不斷不斷的發生而且越來越多而且成績越來越高這個才是最大的問題我相信部長您是律師出身你也參與過國安單位"},{"start":7008.211,"end":7015.88,"text":"那現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌我相信會有更多的面向應該要去注意的剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例為什麼我認為還有很大的問題第一個就是我剛剛說的你院版根本沒有出來國防部質疑如果覺得這非常重要你也沒有提出修法要去修訂"},{"start":7029.395,"end":7034.379,"text":"那如果說只是現在這樣你就把他納為優先的我覺得是太倉促了一點那第二個你在我們修正的條文裡面我們有看到的你說如果一審確定以後就把他的退休給予全部都讓他喪屍等到真的他判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他那這中間如果他發生生活困難呢"},{"start":7056.553,"end":7061.696,"text":"那如果他最後判決無罪的時候你是不是要付他利息或者如果他最後判決確定是無罪的時候是不是要像228一樣你必須要道歉你必須要恢復人家的名譽你今天如果這是一個非常重大的問題我們都認為如果涉犯共諜或者內亂外患危害到國家的時候我們都要應該"},{"start":7082.808,"end":7087.03,"text":"嚴刑峻罰我想這個大家都同意可是你如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚的知道比如說像我們的報告裡面有說可能一定比例先把它扣除可是你在法上沒有啊你在條文裡面根本都沒有啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題都會是存在很大的問題這樣以後誰敢來當軍人"},{"start":7109.466,"end":7125.611,"text":"跟委員報告簡單三點 第一點就是說行政院院版正在討論當中 那麼原則上來講應該是在判決第一審判決之後會做部分的這個部分 就我了解修法方向這是第一點第二點要加強保防意識 而且要加強敵我的"},{"start":7126.631,"end":7141.238,"text":"意識這個是我們贊成的第三個我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像來將這個緩情報跟這個工作做好那麼我想這個都是我們應該努力的方向以上所有的"},{"start":7141.838,"end":7144.319,"text":"部長剛剛您提到的這些部分因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了怎麼樣把原本的提出來以後讓大家清清楚楚的知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障軍人應該要有"},{"start":7156.963,"end":7168.907,"text":"有首有為我們全力支持可是你也不知道說他判的那個輕重比如說六個月他可能不是非常重可是他是所有的退休給予全部都要喪失嗎你的標準在哪裡我們完全看不到所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好然後可以真的規範到相關的這些案子不斷的層出不窮的發生而且不只軍人"},{"start":7183.772,"end":7188.556,"text":"今天他已經滲透到所有剛剛我們說的府院黨其實這是更嚴重的問題因為他攸關我們整個決策的方向他甚至攸關到我們所有元首或者其他人的安全這個部分我想國防部也應該要一併考量我們國安單位也應該要一併考量"},{"start":7205.331,"end":7217.579,"text":"一直把那個圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心而且願意真正的願意把這個志業繼續持續下去愛護我們的國家這個部分請部長就這個部分我們提出願板以後再深入的去做全面的一個探討好不好好 謝謝委員子謝謝"},{"start":7234.321,"end":7236.164,"text":"那現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":7243.447,"end":7253.135,"text":"臨時提案,今年共諜案件頻傳,涉案者高達六成多為現退役軍人,顯示敵情滲透日益嚴峻。軍中反情報機制即待強化,為國防部軍事安全總隊,自2005年納入《國家情報工作法》後,依法執行反情報、風險預警與安全回報等任務,至今卻仍為納編情報工作加急。"},{"start":7267.407,"end":7295.431,"text":"形成法定責任與待遇不符之落差時有檢討調整之必要建請國防部於二個月內提出研議方案將軍事安全總隊軍職人員及聘僱員納入勤工加擠反情報加擠對象強化第一線保防戰力落實國安體系待遇公平提案人委員王定宇聯署人委員羅美玲陳俊宇陳冠廷林楚英沈伯陽等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":7297.896,"end":7307.103,"text":"請問提案委員需不需要說明我說明一下謝謝主席我們對軍方要給予足夠跟充分的支持"},{"start":7308.228,"end":7334.68,"text":"我們也要求軍方對於國家以及台灣的人民絕對的忠誠這是相對的那長期以來根據勤工法在國安局轄下的情報工作單位目前大概就軍安總隊呢是規定在勤工法裡面卻沒有領有勤工加給所以從2005年到目前為止這個狀況一直沒有改善變成法定他有責任"},{"start":7335.58,"end":7349.848,"text":"比方說像我們針對這些共諜案我們可以把軍安總隊 偵探局相關單位給予最嚴厲的要求但是我們也希望在嚴厲的要求之餘也要看看這些工作人員他們應該要支領相對的法定的報酬"},{"start":7350.788,"end":7378.865,"text":"所以本席今天特別提案那委員會的提案給予國防部長作為支持的一個力量盡快落實按照勤工法給予我們軍安總隊軍職人員 聘僱人員符合勤工法裡面規定的人員給予反情報加給或者是國安單位所講的勤工加給這是不同的名詞但只同一件事情來待遇公平那我"},{"start":7379.645,"end":7404.643,"text":"再多說一句就是這些案件層出不窮也許我們認為說軍安總隊或者我們相關國軍的督察單位很認真所以把這些害蟲都抓出來了但這不能自滿當我剛才講當我們看到在這些機敏的營區或者就在營區裡面大喇喇的揮舞著敵人的軍旗敵人的旗幟的時候作為一個指揮官你看到你應該膽戰心驚你應該心驚膽跳"},{"start":7410.152,"end":7429.257,"text":"這個事情是完全不能容忍所以我支持用最重的法律去懲治這些違法亂紀的害群之馬但我們也希望給予我們國軍弟兄姊妹充足的支持所以以上提案說明 謝謝請問國防部對提案內容有沒有意見國防部這邊報告這個"},{"start":7431.383,"end":7458.761,"text":"我們最近針對資源疫還有戰鬥加急的調整都可以看得出來部長對官兵待遇的重視那有關於後續我們還有一些待遇也會陸陸續續做調整那委員今天所提這個案子我們會一併納入檢討下禮拜我們完成一個初步的年底之後向部長報告完那經過部長指導之後我再會帶著相關人員到委員那邊做說明那至於文職的部分我們沒有修改"},{"start":7461.702,"end":7486.811,"text":"這個國防部沒有文字修改 謝謝好 那請問這堂委員有沒有意見好 那這本提案就照案通過那我們接下來請沈培安委員質詢謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝有請部長"},{"start":7495.282,"end":7511.722,"text":"是 沈偉豪部長好我剛剛還是要回應一下剛剛有說這個沒有院版因為現在院版的確還沒有出來沒有院版之前但因為今天只是巡打也沒有進入主條我認為還是有必要讓大家先來討論這件事情再加上最近又有共諜案"},{"start":7512.483,"end":7535.398,"text":"那這個我在這個之前我想先問一下部長這個你可能已經知道了就是之前有這個參盤的事情那我其實沒有要針對這個個案因為畢竟它只是一個單一個案但當時就是說有說這個希望能夠帶參盤什麼等等之類的但是就我的理解就是說後來有說其實並沒有要求這個統一的形式"},{"start":7536.118,"end":7560.567,"text":"但後來下面這個可能不知道是揣摩上意呢還是說他自己的雞婆他又開始對下面做一個要求所以導致有一些士兵反彈所以我想比較通暗型的問就是說因為畢竟國軍的管理體系現在真的是非常的龐大這個命令傳達的過程難免有失誤那是不是可以請這個部長或司令說明就是說接下來在這一類事情的一個處理方式這個部分我們先請參謀長"},{"start":7566.773,"end":7587.532,"text":"謝謝您給我這個說明的機會首先我向 也到委員辦公室做過報告那我在這邊再做一次說明事實上國軍在整個的內部管理跟用餐等等都是有相關的規範那這個案子事實上也是我必須先說明我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的一個規範"},{"start":7589.474,"end":7614.519,"text":"那這個事實就是一個少部分偏遠單位那可能疏於過去從疫情解封之後沒有把它回歸到正常那有關於那既然他是大部分的部隊也都是維持正確的規範那基本上我們就也只是去就這個案子去就一個溝通說明就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生以上報告好"},{"start":7615.299,"end":7637.315,"text":"我想就我的立場是這樣子啦就是說有關這個一個這麼多層級的一個部隊那麼這個司令可能他這個是基於關懷跟照顧官兵的一個心意所以接下來應該是說像這個部分的話應該還是要由部隊去主動去"},{"start":7638.436,"end":7661.054,"text":"主動去提供應該要有部隊去主動提供這個膳食的這個餐具而不是由官兵來發揮這是第一個那第二個相關的這些部分如果有他們有任何的這個意見的話我想部隊的部分的都應該要將這個情形要要轉達上來那這樣的話我想"},{"start":7662.332,"end":7678.177,"text":"這樣的溝通才會良好謝謝部長我覺得溝通的效率現在對我們來講真的是很重要尤其是現在這個危險的時刻因為這個我們有發過文也有在這個辦公室說明過但是我想說趁這個機會還是跟社會大眾說明一下"},{"start":7678.817,"end":7703.398,"text":"那我們回到今天的這個法案今天這個法案有兩個重點第一個當然就是其實我們是一陣子以前提的第二個就是說在前幾個禮拜總統在講這個五大威脅跟十七項策略的時候他裡面其實就有提到就是說國防部須嚴禮在陸海工軍刑法徵定對敵人效忠表示之處罰並修正對於領取退出給予人員的相關規範所以我認為這個既然是這個總統有特別"},{"start":7706.54,"end":7724.002,"text":"提到說國防部應該做這個相關的規範那我覺得不如趁今天這個機會我們來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂哪些不需要訂那這個這個之前我們有看過就是說這次共諜案其實不管是現役跟退役軍人這個佔的百分比這當然是越來越高我相信部長對這個也知道"},{"start":7725.544,"end":7740.662,"text":"那有兩件事情我想要問第一個就是說過往我們發現現役軍人的這一個接觸很多是透過退役軍官這是我們確定的事情所以我在質詢退輔會國防部的時候很常提到但剛好這幾天這個五星旗這個新聞"},{"start":7742.063,"end":7767.477,"text":"我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個"},{"start":7768.397,"end":7786.547,"text":"然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為"},{"start":7787.327,"end":7804.421,"text":"其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分"},{"start":7805.222,"end":7818.957,"text":"如果只按照現有的條文不知道會不會不足夠為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我整理幾個案件這幾個案件不是軍人那第一個案件就是很久以前這一個有個共諜他解釋了王某"},{"start":7819.847,"end":7846.052,"text":"然後透過什麼聊什麼新聞網去經營網站當時法院判無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度這是第一個第二個是中華婦女聯會前理事長秘書涉嫌收受中國對台情收機關的款項他確實有收款項跟前一個案例是一模一樣的但他不能夠證明他有意圖危害國家或社會的安定最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織"},{"start":7848.032,"end":7868.613,"text":"那再來這一個是退役的協會理事長等等之類的那因為無從證明他的出資者是中國的國台辦然後又不能證明是發展組織所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾就是說因為國安法其實它的規定有點限縮那我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法認為修國安法大概還需要很長的一段時間"},{"start":7869.594,"end":7887.344,"text":"那因為九之三就是剛剛這個處英委員有提到就是對於比如說妨害尊嚴啊等等的行為所以這邊我想問一下部長就是說我們有沒有可能在中間這一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予這邊因為他到喪屍沒辦法因為國安法就是有些案件他規定不到"},{"start":7887.924,"end":7906.869,"text":"但他其實已經有行為不管是他有收錢還是他有單點的對口但是還沒有到發展組織總之他就是沒有到國安法那麼嚴重的程度但他有損軍域他也妨礙國家尊嚴像九資三那樣的一個條文的規定那他有沒有可能把他納入到剝奪或減少退出給予中間這一個部分"},{"start":7908.307,"end":7934.305,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個就是說國安法的部分它現在也正在由法務部在研議就是說有關參與的部分要把它納入那這個部分在由法務部做那93條這個有妨害國家尊嚴的這個行為的這個部分現在應該是由陸委會在主導那國安部等人都在參與"},{"start":7938.067,"end":7964.763,"text":"我們國防部的部分要不要納入這個有領取業退縫的部分那這個部分來做那如果有這樣的一個狀況的話就會按照相關的這個規定會有剝奪或減少退出給予的這個部分這樣子是有機會的就93條的這個部分看要怎麼修那我國防部的立場就是說"},{"start":7965.783,"end":7993.124,"text":"你還在領取業退碰的這個期間這樣因為這個是因為這一次我在修法的時候我沒有把這個放進來就是因為我想知道這一個國防部的意見那因為既然剛剛前面已經提到了就是說17項措施這個總統也有提到那我們希望院版能夠盡快出來趁今天這一個機會那除了因為今天我們只排一個就排這一個法案但是我其實就是整個跟這個軍隊紀律有關的其實有那麼多法案"},{"start":7993.724,"end":8017.455,"text":"那外患罪我已經提了但他應該會在司法法治那一邊兩岸人民條例會在內政委員會所以呢很多呢並沒有在這一邊就不是在國防外交但至少我們覺得我們針對這個服役條例或陸海工具刑法這一個部分看要怎麼去研議把這一個國安使法這一個整體的建立起來我覺得應該是一個未來重要的方向那我知道我時間已經到了那我就先講到這邊謝謝好 謝謝薛委"},{"start":8033.564,"end":8043.289,"text":"接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來有請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":8061.109,"end":8078.608,"text":"是 薛恩好部長好那部長您曾經過去擔任過金管會的主委我想先請教一下一般我們在信用狀況正常的民眾那他到銀行去辦理無擔保的信用貸款我們一般利率大概會是多少"},{"start":8079.973,"end":8095.106,"text":"我已經沒有在金管會很久了我已經在國安會都待了四年了那現在又在國安部待了快一年了我想你先問我金管會的事情那沒事沒事這個小事情大概是3%左右我們這個查核嘛"},{"start":8095.706,"end":8115.709,"text":"那么呢好因为我今天要跟你讨论的是说我们的国军贷款专案这件事情我们可以看一下这张图虽然字有一点点小但是呢我们看到左边呢叫做国军的贷款专案也就是国军辅导理财专案贷款合作的行库跟合贷利率的比较表"},{"start":8116.169,"end":8141.114,"text":"那他其實一共有五家的銀行配合那右邊的是軍公教他的福利事項比較表那行政院的人事總署網站有公告房貸他們是用台銀信貸是用土銀承作所以我們就先拿這兩家來做比較就是國軍的部分跟軍公教的部分我們來做比較那因為國軍總共五家那我們拿這兩家來跟公教人員去做比較"},{"start":8142.094,"end":8166.609,"text":"那我們呢可以看到台銀在房貸的部分大概國軍還多公教人員0.1%個百分點算是能夠與公教人員一致但是我們實際去走訪了最近去買房貸的這個官兵他們表示說這張表的房貸並沒有比外面的銀行低那所以呢他認為這個國軍貸款專案那感覺沒有什麼特殊的用處那"},{"start":8167.89,"end":8191.778,"text":"最后呢这些人他们也都选了专案之外的这些公股银行作为他们的这个房贷选择那信用那这是第一个那部长等一下先帮我记一下再请您一次回复那信用贷款的部分呢就非常惊人因为以国均专案当中两间银行最高的信贷比率高达3.764%是公教人员利率的2.205%那等于是大概1.7倍左右"},{"start":8197.58,"end":8223.543,"text":"那軍人他當然跟公教人員不一樣可是呢軍人其實比公教人員某些時候來說還要更加的辛苦那我們在想說國軍的這個貸款專案還有呢這個信貸專案那為什麼我們的福利挨了這麼大劫那這難道就是說這對國軍來說有公平嗎所以這個是我們的訴求我想要先請我們顧部長先針對這個部分來做回應主計局"},{"start":8225.779,"end":8249.772,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長剛剛委員提到不管是房屋貸款或是信用貸款的利率國軍的相關的專案可能比公教導人員這邊來得高我這邊要先說明一個就是利率的決定基本上是乘坐銀行就他乘坐對象的一個風險他會做審慎的評估一開始國軍在做這個相關貸款的時候利率是有"},{"start":8250.512,"end":8272.38,"text":"跟這個比較低但是隨著這幾年來銀行在承作國軍相關不管是各階層軍官士官士兵他在做承帶的時候他發現他的風險他是有差異性的所以他就在這個利率上他就會去墊高那因為公教人員他相對的穩定所以他的風險會比較低所以他的利率"},{"start":8273.54,"end":8300.233,"text":"這是國防部的這個責任啊你懂我意思嗎就是你們不能說你叫國軍貸款專案那你就不要設專案就好了你直接讓他去外面城堡就好啦你直接外面去信貸就好啦那你為什麼要用國軍貸款專案呢你這個國軍貸款專案是讓國軍認為說我用這個專案可以比外面一般的民眾我們去貸款或者是說我們借利率的時候是比一般的民眾來的更加的優惠嘛"},{"start":8302.774,"end":8331.224,"text":"那你这样讲的话优惠与否看起来就没有啊所以这不是我们现在帮官兵争取福利是国防部的责任吗那我们什么时候好我这边我就问部长好了好不好因为主席已经说得很清楚了那我想要问一下我们是不是能够尽快跟五间银行去协商净利净速的调降部分的利率至少你要跟公教人员作为短期的目标是不是能够达成或者是说您支不支持这样的方案"},{"start":8332.419,"end":8344.433,"text":"我會後了解以後我們再來跟相關的銀行來做訪問那我要問的是說布朗您對於這樣子的方案或是我的想法來說的話你是支持與否"},{"start":8346.252,"end":8369.217,"text":"呃我們呃當然要看他的尤其在信用貸款的部分他的基礎是什麼那我們了解以後好那如果是以我剛剛所說的就是說國軍跟公教人員他們的尤其是信用貸款的部分那差額非常大的話是不是可以請這個國防部盡可能的去爭取我們可以看到像以圖銀的部分那可以呃"},{"start":8370.177,"end":8384.994,"text":"能夠向2.2左右往下調一些讓我們的軍官不要覺得說人家公教人員的這個福利都比較好我們軍人的福利都比較差這是希望我們的這個國防部可以去做的那第二個部分"},{"start":8385.154,"end":8402.237,"text":"也跟金钱有关就是急难贷款刚才大家都在讲到这个共铁的各种这个事情什么占比多少等等我就不再说了其中呢你们都有说明说呢中共他们利用黑道帮派地下钱庄掩护一些什么样的这个团体等等的"},{"start":8402.657,"end":8424.122,"text":"去接觸有財務缺口的基層官兵那以金錢利誘債務拼付的方式然後進行滲透那這個就是你們之前就有在說明的可是我們看一下公教人員他們根據中央公教人員的急難貸款實施要點裡面他有一個1.695%的這個利率利息然後還有總額上限120萬的低額度到手的急難貸款服務那請問我們國軍呢"},{"start":8432.232,"end":8447.527,"text":"我們現在已經有一個報一個案子上去到行政院那邊了就是也是一個緊按貸款的一個方案那麼也是比照這個公交人員的比照公交人員對對那現在"},{"start":8449.409,"end":8464.371,"text":"行政院還在跟行政院溝通當中我想要問一下比較公教人員公教人員比較沒有所謂的被滲透的風險有沒有可能國防部爭取在利率跟上限金額上面再比公教人員高一點"},{"start":8466.507,"end":8492.739,"text":"因為兩種還是說國軍跟公教人員還是不太一樣那他如果今天是急難救助你是說金額還是說利率就利這個是那個我們看的是急難急難貸款的部分就是說他碰到急難貸款的時候軍公教人員他有這個利率跟上限金額的部分嘛那我是想要問說上限金額跟利率的部分是否有機會比公教人員來的更高一點點"},{"start":8493.399,"end":8510.121,"text":"比如說我們的利息變低然後我們的上限金額變高有沒有可能不只是像公教人員一樣而是能夠再往上提高一點點因為畢竟你們都講了說這個中共利用等等的然後財務缺口然後呢進行滲透嘛"},{"start":8510.962,"end":8528.835,"text":"那所以如果說我們今天要讓我們有財務缺口的這些軍官能夠可以有一個急難救助金然後去借款的話那他就比較不容易在這個部分就被滲透掉所以照理來說我們應該國軍在上限金額跟利率上要比公交人員來得高"},{"start":8529.295,"end":8558.416,"text":"因為國軍跟工匠人員比起來國軍被滲透的可能性也比較高風險比較高所以我在這一點上面我是希望能夠替國軍爭取說他們的急難貸款裡面上限金額提高比工匠人員高利率能夠比工匠人員低我不曉得在這個部分我們部長有沒有可能跟我們報告因為就我的理解它有不同的類別有傷病醫護傷臟災害育嬰長後護理長期照護等等然後還有一個小額紓困"},{"start":8559.096,"end":8581.534,"text":"那我們現在還在各個最高的金額跟相關的利率我們還在跟行政院我知道你說還在討論嘛但是我想要問的問題其實很簡單報給行政院的時候我們可不可以那在這個部分我們盡可能的去爭取就是說因為國軍的特殊性所以呢他在上限金額就各類型的啦"},{"start":8581.914,"end":8600.203,"text":"因為我就不一一列舉啦我一一列舉的話每個都要問很麻煩嘛上限金額跟利率的部分我們可以比公教人員還要來的優惠那就是因為他的軍隊的國軍的這個特殊性的關係那希望這個部分我們國防部可以來跟行政院再去做更多的爭取"},{"start":8600.563,"end":8626.426,"text":"那我认为这个对我们的国安相关的这个所谓反渗透的方式也会有一些的帮助或许不一定真的很多但是我觉得会有帮助因为比起现在都不是就是没有的状况来说我觉得呢会比较好一些所以这一点是不是在拜托郭玉琼部长能够帮国军争取权益呃相关金额跟利率的部分我们再跟主席总书做一个讨论好好好谢谢"},{"start":8631.879,"end":8644.685,"text":"謝謝小協委員 謝謝部長接下來有請吳宗憲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們麻煩部長有請部長"},{"start":8654.178,"end":8670.245,"text":"部長早安您辛苦了部長我想請教的問題大概一塊是有關那個違反國安法軍事關退休金的問題另外一個是軍審法的問題那第一個我想請教一下就是我看到資料2020年到現在為止這個"},{"start":8671.065,"end":8697.842,"text":"共點案我們起訴是159人那有6成是現役或現役的軍人那總共95人嘛其中軍官46人士官27人士兵22人那我想請教一下就這些案子裡面拿到對岸滲透勢力的酬勞依據你們之前調查那個最高的酬勞是什麼最高啊對對這個看看"},{"start":8702.114,"end":8720.129,"text":"像委員報告以往案例最高曾經拿到一千多萬一千多萬好謝謝好那這一次我是想請教一下就是說那我們這一次的公安部的這個草案有提到可以剝奪退休金那你們有研判過這個剝奪退休金它能夠有效防止軍人成為共諜嗎"},{"start":8722.545,"end":8747.783,"text":"我想就這個部分主要的目的是在於就是說他因為對國家還有一個還在領退儲給予的這個權利的情況之下有一個忠誠的義務那如果他有違反這樣子的一個忠誠的義務的情況之下我們認為他不應該再有領受退儲給予的這樣的一個權利所以這個是懲罰他並不是說預防將來大家成為共諜是不是"},{"start":8750.606,"end":8756.356,"text":"我們當然希望透過這一個法律的制定會產生一定的威嚇的效果"},{"start":8757.84,"end":8779.919,"text":"那這樣我想說從過往的例子我們大概初步的來看大概就不外乎錢、利益、女人或者是信仰等等的那我覺得就是說因為過往政府他有一個習慣遇到狀況就是大撒幣大補助那這一次政府也有一個賴總統有一個想法就是說他弄一個對自己的黨工成立一個救助金"},{"start":8780.74,"end":8798.609,"text":"那這個救助金因為我在思考這個點當然這個不是國家出的錢這真的對於預防共諜有它的效果嗎其實我是打一個問號因為有人他可能是依據信仰而來嘛因為你說他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官其實他對經濟是沒有任何"},{"start":8799.389,"end":8815.505,"text":"困難或甚至說他只是愛錢他經濟沒有困難他就是喜歡金錢然後這時候這樣子真的能夠有效去制止這個成為共諜這是我的一個問題所以我是希望說可以的我希望說你們能夠提供給我一些資料"},{"start":8816.285,"end":8843.001,"text":"就是這段時間你們調查的結果就成為共諜你們後來一定有做一些研判嘛那這個研判資料可不可以給我就是大概在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的背景下它可能會變成朝共諜這個方向就好像你當過金管會你一定知道譬如說紅旗警訊等等的對於一些企業它可能會爆發將來會爆發一些金融上面的問題一定會有一些警訊的那個那個例子跟sample在那裡那是不是國防部有這種東西那這個"},{"start":8844.762,"end":8856.079,"text":"當然就是未來在教育軍人的時候可以用到那如果是不是國防部有那有可以提供我一份讓我參考嗎您是說有關吸收的共諜的方"},{"start":8857.377,"end":8879.656,"text":"就是他成為就是他從正常的一個軍人愛國愛家的一個軍人後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜那他的風險可能是什麼就我剛剛跟您提到了就像商場中的紅旗警訊的這個概念什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有那個高風險的情況發生我希望說國安部能不能給我們一個這個資料讓我參考一下"},{"start":8882.657,"end":8911.025,"text":"呃 我想剛剛政戰局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局溝通有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔 部長因為時間的關係我想說齁財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性啦因為都推給財務或者是"},{"start":8911.925,"end":8926.914,"text":"對當然還有不同的吸收的手法所以我們剛剛有提到有各種各種的另外軍審法的部分我想說因為大家一直講說最近這個共諜案很嚴重應該要加重處罰那加重處罰其實他應該處理的是國安法"},{"start":8927.954,"end":8943.457,"text":"軍人的話是陸海工軍刑法那這個跟軍審判法關聯性在哪因為部長您是法律人嘛我也非常尊敬您那為什麼您以前說軍審判法沒必要那現在又要重開機因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊那我不知道部長您的想法"},{"start":8944.797,"end":8964.305,"text":"跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說因為現在軍審法他事實上他沒有全盤的廢除軍審法的可能的適用也就是說他在這個暫時的情況之下他還是要重新啟動這個軍審法但是因為平時如果沒有做一個軍審法的這個實踐的話"},{"start":8968.167,"end":8988.267,"text":"那麼到了暫時幾乎沒有任何沒有任何的人量來進行所以他這是第一個第二個我已經也一再講過了就是說我對過去的軍審當然受到相關人民的不信任然後相關大法官的解釋所質疑的這個部分我們都會在重開機的情況之下"},{"start":8989.087,"end":9005.275,"text":"來避免這些違反大法官的質疑然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟正當法律程序原則的一個一個一個一個因為時間關係我就講我幾個想要給部長您建議或參考就好第一個就是說"},{"start":9007.196,"end":9025.414,"text":"程序上面畢竟他還是對於當事人的保障沒有優於刑事訴訟法所以我們不我先說我對於精神法要不要重新實施我認為有弊也有利所以我沒有下一個定論該或不該這是第一個我先說我不是說有一些人完全反對精神法"},{"start":9026.155,"end":9042.742,"text":"那個恢復就是開始那個停止凍結開始使用我沒有所以第一個我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠那第二個就是說目前回歸到普通法院審理的"},{"start":9044.363,"end":9066.045,"text":"軍法審判案件他其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院那是不是說我們在一二審的事實審的時候要不要考量在事實審的時候就可以在二審就回歸到普通法案我說這個是一個思考的方向因為法律審畢竟他是沒有在考量事實他是尊重一二審調查出來的事實法律審只看法律有沒有問題"},{"start":9066.846,"end":9092.059,"text":"法律省再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急無法救濟前面的損害這個是再麻煩部長您法律人一定聽得懂我在說什麼那再來就是現在的軍法官他是變成檢察事務官是在各地在桃園地檢等等的那他不是從事審判的工作他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類那這個再有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去"},{"start":9093.86,"end":9109.119,"text":"再重新重拾這個審判業務的話他會非常的不習慣是不是他們應該要放在司法院在軍審辦法還沒恢復之前他們是不是應該要放在司法院這也是我們一個思考的方向那最後我想說一個PowerPoint我給"},{"start":9110.22,"end":9132.947,"text":"給您看一下 就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告就是有關這個24條跟4條草案的一些問題尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金這個是一個非常重大的事情所以是不是我們這個退休金的 停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算"},{"start":9133.607,"end":9159.92,"text":"或者是如何消滅如何恢復等等這個要有一個很完整的資料因為這個東西我們不能讓他變成未來任何一個黨執政之後變成拿來修理他不喜歡的退役軍人的那個條文嘛所以我希望如果國防部就這部分有提出草案那是否這個時間起算點等等的都能夠非常的明確啊這資料"},{"start":9161.201,"end":9187.399,"text":"那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍費的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範"},{"start":9191.361,"end":9208.94,"text":"所以就這個部分的話可能法務部國安法的13條定案了之後我們就同步來進行草案的修正所以這個部分的話可能是可能要主要還是要看最後法務部定案的那個國安法13條"},{"start":9209.881,"end":9227.385,"text":"部長 這個你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性這個我都能夠理解啦那是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考那我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國防部的質詢我們才會有所依據我的立場只是這樣我們再提出我們國防部的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位將軍 謝謝"},{"start":9236.486,"end":9251.357,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來有請邱志偉委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請郭部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":9260.928,"end":9284.605,"text":"最近我有機會跟日本前防衛的大臣有一些討論 私底下討論這個講到國防預算中國的國防預算的規模是日本的三倍到四倍中國的國防預算的規模是台灣的四十倍這個預算的差距"},{"start":9285.58,"end":9304.02,"text":"我們必須要考量當我們的援軍沒有辦法及時到的時候我們要有自主防衛能量自主防衛能量一定要有足夠的國防預算來支援所以目前我們目標日本2027要提到GDP的2%"},{"start":9306.629,"end":9334.638,"text":"2027他們的目標他們是以每年差不多好像是0.2的程度然後一直到2027到一定的年沒有他告訴我2027到2%嘛我最近看到的好像他是逐步在提升當中他跟我講的嘛他跟我講的2027到2%嘛我會朝向這個目標我們是希望徵詢能夠到3%我那天在院會質詢這個卓院長他說3%是我們階段性的目標"},{"start":9335.638,"end":9355.985,"text":"那美國也希望說我們再提高到3.4不管到3%或3.4%當然這預算規模很大但是跟中國的國防預算規模的差距還是很大所以我覺得應該逐步啊來增加這個國防預算佔GDP的比例那部長你有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":9357.163,"end":9379.848,"text":"總統已經宣示了3%是我們要達到另外我想如果總統的意思上來看的話3%也不是最後的一個底線還有可能往上增加不過重點是在於我們這個要依照我們防衛作戰的實際需要這個是因為我們"},{"start":9381.414,"end":9387.944,"text":"中國這麼大,那我們不可能跟他比這個所以我們不對稱的這個關鍵戰力總統說要編列特別預算,你這期程有沒有規劃?"},{"start":9398.527,"end":9410.735,"text":"我們當然正在進行規劃你這個回答比較抽象,也速度比較慢我們會後再討論,繼續請教第二個問題"},{"start":9417.078,"end":9440.264,"text":"這個我們用FMS跟DCS 日本也面臨同樣的問題他們也會分散對其他美國之外國家的相關軍事合作比方說他們跟義大利 比方說他們跟英國去次世代的戰機的研發所以FMS跟DCS 為什麼提到DCS因為它有助於對美貿易逆差的平衡"},{"start":9441.364,"end":9463.801,"text":"對美國貿易順差的平衡我想請教我們採用FMS DCS是您決定還是軍種的司令決定還是美國做決定我們基本上跟委員報告我們如果能夠採取軍售的管道的話那主要當然是跟美國"},{"start":9465.003,"end":9492.577,"text":"才有這個軍售的管道嘛那原則上如果有軍售的這個管道那又能夠縮短這個軍售的流程的話我們還是會以軍售為主但如果沒有辦法不適宜透過軍售的我們就會改採商售的方式有些非機敏性比方說旅遊採購F35非機敏性的比方說一些這個裝備的維持"},{"start":9494.893,"end":9523.113,"text":"也沒有相關的高端技術的管制所以這部分我們有五大信貸產業包括軍工我們怎麼樣透過DCS來協助軍工產業的發展這個很重要日本防衛廳他給我們訊息是有些是要美國會決定一定要採取FMS大部分不會大部分就是看你自己的需求"},{"start":9524.611,"end":9551.853,"text":"所以DCS跟FMS我的理解是國內來做決定那國內我了解三軍 軍種各有不同的本位思考有些軍種他比較傾向於這個軍購即便軍購他的這個效率契約的保障他的成本也比較貴他還是會採用軍購 我不知道什麼原因有些軍種卻反而會接受從成本考量 從這個契約的保障"},{"start":9552.984,"end":9578.746,"text":"你商售它有受缺的管制軍售沒有喔所以這部分你們要特別注意到這一點所以我覺得每項重大的國中採購你要走FMS還是DCS我希望部長您能夠掌握您能夠理解是我們這邊會有部裡面的連參報上來之後我這邊會有掌握還是你叫軍總自行去決定"},{"start":9579.779,"end":9605.898,"text":"沒有 軍種一定要到你那邊所以每個軍售案子你都會了解是好我看一下這比較表國防自主航太產業第三章對外軍售跟對內的自己相關的這個研發經費我們是給國外國內沒有所以如果是對內"},{"start":9607.677,"end":9635.951,"text":"我們是用這個對內的方式來用DCS它對國內相當常常可以合作漢翔是我們的這個航帶產業重要的一個龍頭也是在我的選區對不對它如果能夠把這些技術把這些生產能量留在台灣企業也有收入對軍工產業也有幫忙為什麼這比例還是要走FIMS"},{"start":9637.472,"end":9660.698,"text":"所以這個原則你們要把握清楚一定要非國防自主非尖端性非機敏性的美國沒有特別意見的基本上如果把商源留在國內帶動五大西端產業軍工產業發展我想這個很重要我希望每一項到底要FMS還是DCS我希望部長都能夠深切去掌握因為我有接到一些訊息"},{"start":9662.028,"end":9676.515,"text":"本來應該很合理,用常識來判斷,不用用專業知識來判斷,用常識來判斷,應該走DCS結果莫名其妙就非得走FMS,你要去了解一下我們不討論個案,我討論到我所理解的狀況我想我把這個問題丟出來,你們去檢討一下,我說這個一定有所本"},{"start":9689.843,"end":9704.28,"text":"報告我們現在手裡頭29個軍售案裡面都是我們目前自主能力上面比較不足的必須採取向對外採購的方式那當然我們"},{"start":9705.501,"end":9727.61,"text":"我掌握有很多國內做會比軍種產還好而且兩岸變成結果兩岸變成結果在你們的工合會議室基本上是贊成DCS後來在某些軍種就變成叫FMS這部分你去了解 這轉折到底是合不合理你們去了解 我不討論個案另外兩領請"},{"start":9732.435,"end":9760.525,"text":"在陳水扁總統任內撤除了兩獎臨請桃園縣政府當時候是朱立倫當縣長一紙公文說為了這個地方觀光所需啊地方觀光所需請國防部再恢復原來的這個所謂兩獎臨請臨請是帝王的墳墓臨請的所謂衛兵的守護工作從97年到現在一紙公文"},{"start":9761.701,"end":9783.571,"text":"好 請教部長如果為了振興所需 其他縣市能不能比較辦理我高雄市有義民廟我能不能請義民廟 到義民廟來這邊來做相關的守護或者操演為了觀光所需 國軍要配合地方的觀光業務嗎"},{"start":9788.689,"end":9815.888,"text":"從97年到現在那你現在說後來我那天問你你答不出來後來你們給我公文我才知道怎麼回事是因為桃園縣政府要求你們一紙公文叫你們為了配合地方觀光發展現在還 你調查一下去兩場領請一年去多少次去多少人我們需要花那麼多納稅的人錢去為獨裁者去墳墓做這些事情嗎"},{"start":9817.658,"end":9846.534,"text":"跟委員報告,我覺得根本的解決之道就我了解在民國93年1月27號蔣芳良女士還在世的時候曾經致函本部表達這個宜林安奉五指山國軍四萬公墓的一個意願所以如果能夠採取蔣芳良女士的這個遺願的這樣的一個做法,可能是一個根本的解決之道你那個是落後資訊,97年陳水扁總統任內就已經撤除了"},{"start":9847.094,"end":9858.115,"text":"是因為一紙公文才恢復的這個公文這個是你們的公文給我的當時確實前總統陳勝明先生是有批示啦那我覺得也曾經撤出過一段時間啊"},{"start":9860.433,"end":9879.993,"text":"不是,就是說他當時是說批示說尊重家屬的意願,因國葬法的統慎辦理,用事尊重就這個部分我想如果說還是以這個能夠宜林安鳳的話,我想這才是可能根本的解決之道那97年到現在多久了?"},{"start":9881.311,"end":9906.091,"text":"那我想我們再來持續溝通你派駐一隊國軍進駐在兩蔣臨請的依據是什麼就是桃園縣政府一紙公文嘛那我問你是不是其他縣政府可以比照辦理呢那你那個部長不能回答這個是哪一個待會負責督導的這後備司令部"},{"start":9908.463,"end":9931.012,"text":"我講的有沒有錯委員好 這個有關委員剛剛提的那個領請的部分那針對領請這幾個字 後備指揮部在針對你們要檢討這個我知道啦 是是是但是我說的是你們當初派出的依據是什麼你們給我的公文答覆是依依為豪營縣政府一紙公文嘛為了地方振興地方觀光所需嘛"},{"start":9931.832,"end":9952.891,"text":"沒有錯吧 是你們去檢討一下如果這樣子的話 其他縣市能不能比照辦理鮑委員 針對這件事情我們已經通令我們已經發文給桃園市政府預計在5月10號以前會邀集總統府行政院及桃園市政府等單位來做一個研討及做一個修訂但後續各縣市政府都會比照這一次的辦理我們在5月10號前會開一個聯審會議"},{"start":9955.236,"end":9978.622,"text":"如果我不質詢 我不要求 這個問題永遠 永遠加在那邊永遠就是 你轉型沒有辦法去執行我覺得你們要積極一點 是 部長你要全盤掌握 部長也許你這個 國事如馬恐怕沒有辦法針對這件事情全盤掌握我希望說 後備指揮官能夠跟部長再詳細說明因為經濟快輪到我質詢了"},{"start":9981.707,"end":9982.271,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝部長好,謝謝韋"},{"start":9987.931,"end":10012.028,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來我們有請蘇清泉委員上台質詢蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在接下來有請徐欣盈委員上台質詢徐欣盈委員徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在接下來有請楊瓊英委員上台質詢楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在接下來有請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":10013.449,"end":10034.931,"text":"葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在 接下來有請鄭振淺委員上台質詢鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在那好 那已登記質詢的委員出不在場 外軍已發言完畢 報告及詢答結束那本人會議有林毅君委員跟黃仁委員提出書面質詢 列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":10035.772,"end":10052.898,"text":"委員書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料再請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員另約定其現場從期鎖定那今天議程所列的法案這個在另定期繼續審查那本日會議到此結束散會"},{"start":10175.339,"end":10176.766,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"}]}},{"id":"160279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfb3c14d671bfc118dd598beef862d51bb2021fb25ab74fd836f56bf4e46f5f0685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:25:32 - 13:34:07","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「面對國際經貿情勢瞬變，我國如何因應並確保藥品、醫療器材等各面向供應正常，保障國人權益。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月16日及17日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-16","start_time":"2025-04-16T13:25:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-16T13:34:07+08:00","duration":515,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.95846875,"end":6.0553437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.329093750000002,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.93221875,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.29909375,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.39409375,"end":34.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.01284375,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.594718750000006,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.30346875,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.53971875,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.64096875,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.619718750000004,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.14659375,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.16721875,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.03784375000001,"end":67.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.03721875000001,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.91034375000001,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.26034375,"end":74.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.93471875,"end":76.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.84596875000001,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.67096875,"end":104.67284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.67284375000001,"end":104.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":113.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.66284375000001,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.07534375,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.62346875,"end":124.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.93971875000001,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.14534375,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.88659375,"end":140.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.90346875,"end":148.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.77971875,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.91034375,"end":181.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.71971875,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.84596875000003,"end":187.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.86659375000002,"end":197.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.36721875,"end":199.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.25721875000002,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.30784375000002,"end":202.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.64909375000002,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.15534375000001,"end":203.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.74596875,"end":210.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.00221875000003,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.38534375,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.92534375000002,"end":218.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.31346875000003,"end":263.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.42284375000003,"end":219.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.39471875000004,"end":270.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.33471875000004,"end":283.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.74596875000003,"end":285.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.99471875,"end":286.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.37846875,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.41534375000003,"end":311.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.66159375,"end":317.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.66909375,"end":325.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.37784375,"end":319.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.09909375,"end":320.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.36909375000005,"end":320.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.05596875000003,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.49034375,"end":331.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.48971875,"end":356.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.02409375,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.97659375,"end":349.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.05971875,"end":364.41284375000004},{"s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這邊跟委員回應就針對輸液這個特定的議題來講我們跟委員先報告我們今年3月24號已經整個完整回到自由的市場的機制但是我們持續還是維持著去協調"},{"start":443.223,"end":471.75,"text":"那能夠假如有需要的時候做搭配因為就是來自於不同的來源的這個原料輸液各家的產線總量跟國內的使用量目前都是已經可以達到平衡所以從這一個例子裡面針對剛才提到的所謂的國家醫藥的韌性的部分在所謂的平轉戰的一個階段我們也有進一步的去做一些考量因為這個部分的確是牽涉到國安的議題我們實際上一直都跟"},{"start":473.33,"end":497.251,"text":"國家的國安的部分呢 做一些些的考量謝謝喔 因為我再次強調 因為那是最近的事情而已喔那我們要花八九個月才可以把基本的這個物資來調配完畢齁 那更不用在成品狀況是這樣那在不成品的狀況的話 有衝突的狀況在封鎖或者是阻隔的狀況 我不知道要幾個月那所以這個要"},{"start":499.008,"end":508.555,"text":"要納入考量因為你剛剛講到量也是但是當初這個國內市場市佔率他是70%所以說商源也是很重要的這個要一併幫我們納入謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df230a1a93d87233d0d598beef862d51bb2021fb25ab74fd83e00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:07:51 - 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麻煩請衛福部長請部長"},{"start":20.29,"end":34.477,"text":"委員好部長好之前呢我跟莊瑞雄委員有積極處理這個台東馬街醫護宿舍改建的事情那在這邊也非常感謝部長大力的支持真的是功德一見創"},{"start":39.24,"end":58.115,"text":"但是我想在這個過程當中我們跟院方有很多的對談那特別就是馬街的這個王院長他有跟我提到一件事就是說他在台東服務30年那看這個就是說來來去去的這個醫護人員太多了"},{"start":58.795,"end":85.441,"text":"那很多就是政府希望在這個補充偏鄉醫療資源的政策往往沒有辦法實際留住這個偏鄉的醫護人才因為很多有時候政策的這些辦法沒有政策沒有辦法到位就像之前我有提過就是偏鄉的這個醫院住院的護理偏鄉醫院住院護理費根本是沒有反映到這個護理師的所得那"},{"start":86.981,"end":114.606,"text":"很多的这个偏乡的医师为什么留不住因为在这个偏乡医院看诊的收入呢几乎都是全部要列入这个所得课税那如果是在这个西部地区开诊所那这些医生的这个医疗收入有八成他是可以被认列在这个成本里面所以很多偏乡的医师最后呢"},{"start":115.066,"end":137.977,"text":"干脆就到西部自己去开诊所也不会留在偏乡但因为同样的收入他去开诊所要缴的税相对是可以少掉许多特别这个王院长还有跟我提到一个建议本席这样听了也觉得非常的不错我想这样"},{"start":139.797,"end":153.023,"text":"這個這個意見這個樣的一個建議是絕對可以直接讓偏鄉的醫護受惠然後我們政府也不用再編列什麼補助而且可以直接反映到這個偏鄉醫護的身上就是我們來規劃偏鄉醫護稅制的優惠"},{"start":157.264,"end":177.111,"text":"好那增加這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除額部長您也是醫師我這樣的建議我想相信部長應該很有感那麼我們針對這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除額呢也跟這個也會同這個衛福部跟財政部一起開過會"},{"start":179.253,"end":196.991,"text":"但是我要提醒就是說這件事情需要這個目的事業主管機關來發起財政部是不會主動幫你們提出這樣子的一個方案所以這件事情是不是部長可以由衛福部盡快來研議提出好我想"},{"start":202.292,"end":227.961,"text":"協助那個偏鄉醫療的人力是我們非常重要的工作跟目標啦用任何的方法能夠把它留出來我們都一定當然要合乎法規合乎規定的方法之下或者創造更多的計畫包括譬如說醫中計畫啦各種計畫讓它但是如果實行到一段時間覺得那些計畫好像王院長還會覺得不夠"},{"start":231.103,"end":244.829,"text":"我想這個也不是王院長一個人王院長在那邊服務很久他也很瞭解像馬捷醫院要把人到那邊真的是非常的"},{"start":245.869,"end":273.025,"text":"對 我們也不要離題太多啦就是針對這個偏鄉醫護特別扣除了的部分是不是衛福部可以盡快來演繹好 我們盡快來演繹好 那另外就是說在討論的過程也有講到我們有提到幾個問題就是說這個醫院的適用對象你們提到這個偏鄉醫院的認定通常都是山地離島地區的醫院那或者是醫療資源缺乏地區醫院"},{"start":274.386,"end":289.893,"text":"可是用兩個框架下去看我們去看花蓮的慈濟或者是台東幾家大的醫院全部都是被排除在外"},{"start":291.581,"end":318.478,"text":"因為這些醫院的所在地不會是醫療資源缺乏地區但是他的生活機能確實是無法和西部地區來相比較願意到東部服務的醫護確實是比較好甚至在台東開到一個月51萬的薪水都沒有醫生要去所以我在這裡建議到第三個就是說原住民原住民族地區的醫院"},{"start":319.398,"end":341.876,"text":"那這三個認定標準之外本席還想就是說列出第四個有些醫院可能就是說他地處偏鄉那比較不容易在這個前三項的不是在這個前三項的範圍內譬如說這個南投的竹山秀傳醫院也是不容易留住醫護人才的地方"},{"start":342.617,"end":355.203,"text":"所以我希望說可以在這個稅制的優惠上讓偏鄉增加一點誘因然後也感謝所有這些醫護人員為偏鄉的奉獻我不曉得這樣的建議部長怎麼看"},{"start":357.61,"end":372.418,"text":"我相當的支持我們過去的確跟我也曾經在財委會過也爭取了特別的客租額但是都不太會成功所以這個我們會特別來博弈"},{"start":377.236,"end":404.508,"text":"要跟財政部好好來溝通一下很多的時候我是吉祥物所以我覺得我們這個有時候時間點不一樣或者他比較成熟或有一些這個很多的因素加起來搞不好這是一個好時機給我們來努力看看像王院長他們覺得這樣是有幫助的話表示他們已經想很久覺得這是有幫助那你感謝委員這麼關心而且能夠提議這麼具體我想衛福部一定來研議"},{"start":405.168,"end":427.093,"text":"好那因為接下來是繳稅的季節今年肯定是來不及啦所以我們再加把勁希望就是說看看明年可不可以有好消息這樣子好的好的謝謝那另外這邊還有個問題也要特別另外請這個食藥署署長江署長一起上來好師生同台嘛"},{"start":430.802,"end":441.475,"text":"那個我就直接問了就是兩位都是醫學院的教授首先想要請到江署長醫療效果跟健康效應是不是一樣有沒有不同的意義"},{"start":444.801,"end":465.868,"text":"醫療效果是某一個疾病斬斷治療前後健康的效應他是一個通稱那有時候跟委員那個垂尋壓力相對放下那個健康效果效應就是比較好所以中間其實是會有不一樣的意義在因為本期不是食品"},{"start":466.368,"end":489.895,"text":"OK好再請教部長如果不一樣的話我們可不可以這樣解讀就是說有健康效應不一定會有醫療效果例如吃了保健食品會有一定的健康效應但是跟醫師給病人使用的藥品針對特定的症狀疾病給予治療那目的跟效果是不同的這樣好"},{"start":494.4,"end":512.336,"text":"我這樣解讀可以嗎?看起來是OK我想只要是藥物都是他治療的是療效可是對於一般的食品你不能宣稱任何的療效他就會違反到我們的要求所以我剛剛應該沒有說錯什麼啦是好"},{"start":512.876,"end":527.811,"text":"那我們對於這個健康跟醫療的差別其實是很容易溝通那可是呢當我看到食品安全衛生法的一個認定規則當下還有點傻眼就是說兩位看一下這個規定"},{"start":530.032,"end":552.117,"text":"名稱叫做食品及相關產品標示宣導廣告涉及不實誇張一身誤解或醫療效果的認定準則來看一下準則第五條食品之標示宣傳或廣告有下列情形之一認定為涉及醫療效能"},{"start":552.777,"end":569.838,"text":"那涉及預防改善減輕診斷或治療疾病症候群或症狀好再來就是涉及減輕或降低導致疾病有關之體內成分那第三個是涉及中藥材效能"},{"start":573.243,"end":595.002,"text":"所以藥品是針對已經有疾病症狀來治療用的它本身不是用來預防改善的目的本席這樣子表述有沒有錯誤我沒有設定任何陷阱讓大家跳我們只是釐清一些概念而已我稍微說明一下如果是藥品"},{"start":595.743,"end":610.082,"text":"他對於一定是來自於這個藥物的治療之下產生的效果對特定產生比如說膽固醇的下降那我們下降到什麼程度其實是有實證科學的證據底下最後"},{"start":611.308,"end":633.039,"text":"核給他這個藥物的適應症所以他的上市是從藥物的開始前期以及中間的臨床的試驗確定到開始的我們長期的療效這個是屬於藥品的適應的食品的部分其實我們是最基本的食品其實是為了我們的生活跟生命的延續所以他是必須要的"},{"start":633.699,"end":654.214,"text":"我想但是就是說這個食品或者保健食品它所強調的或是大家所關切的就是涉及一些症狀及預防改善那現在準則的這一條規定已經把所有涉及苗樹健康效應的範疇通通把它納為醫療效能"},{"start":656.915,"end":684.264,"text":"連這個營養成分都不可以講因為涉及減輕疾病有關的這個體內成分也都不可以講那明明你們主管的這個營養及健康飲食促進法所定義的營養成分例如糖類蛋白質維生素礦物質要求食品業者要多添加及宣導結果只要只要講了任何的這個健康效應就會變成不實的醫療效果的廣告"},{"start":685.044,"end":699.294,"text":"那這樣子不就是只准週關放火然後不准百姓點燈嗎因為這個動輒裁罰有收幾百萬上千萬那甚至就是有些公司因此不得不關門大吉"},{"start":702.356,"end":722.158,"text":"就是說我們這樣看起來說原來說消滅產業才是準則的最大功效看起來好像變成是這樣因為業者他不敢就是說完整標示完整然後讓消費者就是說我們現在很多就是我們不知道自己在買什麼吃什麼"},{"start":723.599,"end":742.31,"text":"比較誠實的業者然後就是說寫了經過實驗認證的功效反而也是被罰的所以最後大家怎麼樣會變成說好像大家改做進口商當然很多消費者就是專門去買日韓的健康食品"},{"start":743.51,"end":761.4,"text":"所以我不希望說這個衛福部變成是促進日韓健康食品產業的最大幫手因為這些國家他們沒有這樣子像筷子手一樣的準則我今天用詞比較重一點啦因為你們這個有時候這個比例裁罰也是很重的"},{"start":761.98,"end":786.977,"text":"這都是為了國人的健康但是我想在很多的面向到底合不合理有沒有跟上時代這個是大家要去深思因為畢竟目前這個賴總統很重要國政健康台灣不就是要培養我們國人的這個健康的觀念從飲食上好的這個健康促進來提升免疫力然後減少這個癌症及慢性病的發生率可是因為這些法規過時狹隘"},{"start":789.218,"end":807.604,"text":"以及這些好像感覺很威權的這樣的一個觀念然後不准這個實名業者去宣導經過學術認證的健康效應我想這個有時候我們誤把逢金這個當作馬良所以我想今天提出這樣子的一個一些這樣的議題我們來溝通啊"},{"start":810.801,"end":830.868,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢特別是針對食品的部分在台灣是健康食品法針對我們的食品有宣稱它的所謂的功效的部分我們有13種的認定那這認定我們會給小綠人標章至於委員順便提到的有相當多的保健相關的食品"},{"start":831.488,"end":853.181,"text":"那因為健康食品強調是保健功效所以很多我們一般的食品他宣稱他是叫做所謂的保健食品在這種情形之下裡面有很多重要的所謂的功能性的一些成分所以目前我們署內也是積極的在研議希望把這些功能性的成分能夠納入我們納管的範圍裡面"},{"start":856.443,"end":879.586,"text":"最近呢我們其實是遇到的一個最重要的一個議題或許委員也了解那因為有很多很多的採購購買在電視裡面的廣告裡面有很多的家長長輩們的採用之下其實它相對於它的所謂的功效的部分會有相對的是讓人家是覺得是神乎其技的"},{"start":880.446,"end":904.072,"text":"我覺得這部分我們在廣告的部分特別會注意本席剛剛提的我要討論的內容並不是要去討論這個被業者誇大的層面而是經實驗證實它有這個效應的部分是不是可以如實的納入而不被當作是好像誇大或者是宣稱的什麼醫療的這個的"},{"start":907.633,"end":922.285,"text":"功效去被裁罰所以我想這個是兩個議題本席肯定你們去把這些誇大不實的這些業者狠狠的給他罰但是有些在"},{"start":922.965,"end":929.331,"text":"法規的這個擴大的這個有點無限上綱的這個不合理的這個規範我覺得我們應該要與時俱進畢竟有日本韓國這樣子的國家我們是可以去參考的"},{"start":939.181,"end":958.619,"text":"那因為我知道你們一定會去提到這個健康食品的認證啦其實坦白講健康食品的認證也產生了一樣類似的問題他能講的提到的也還是很局限所以這個部分本席真的要拜託你們好好的去做一個檢討"},{"start":959.54,"end":987.577,"text":"特別是部長也是在總統府的健康台灣推動委員會裡面擔任執行秘書所以這個部分我希望就是說大家來為這個發展台灣健康產業的經濟規模來做努力而不是去限縮國人的健康權所以這個部分我希望你們是不是可以在能不能在多久內來檢討完畢然後修訂這個不合理的行政命令"},{"start":989.613,"end":994.085,"text":"接替食藥署可不可以先到委員辦公室去了解一下整個"},{"start":996.795,"end":1018.335,"text":"因為這牽涉到蠻多要處理的了解一下然後兩個月內提出我們怎麼樣改善、怎麼樣處理的報告好那就兩個月到中間也歡迎我們大家來多溝通謝謝因為我對新的署長有很大的期待謝謝他是署長專家署長就趕快去"}]}},{"id":"160193","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160193","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df39ec4fc3996b8bbf772d893bf7b7126ed146475ae9ed72cdb4272b109c97fcf25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:15:15 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Journey也好當AI剛出來的時候有關Mid Journey還是有關世衛財產權甚至最近最紅的吉卜利的狀況吉卜利的這個化石的風格我覺得這未來可能會一直不停的在發在重生在我們的AI產業裡面"},{"start":334.145,"end":354.419,"text":"而這一點是需要我們去直接去注意的如何能夠保持原創性但是如何又能夠融合所有的元素在裡面這是未來AI可以幫助我們但是同時之間AI如何也要保障當初原創者的精神這是我們未來在AI基本法也好還是在人工智慧裡面也好我們需要去注意到的最後"},{"start":356.775,"end":370.63,"text":"人工智慧是一個充滿潛力的領域但它同時也帶來許多挑戰我期待今天的公聽會我們能夠凝聚更多的智慧與共識為了台灣的人工智慧來發展出創新的局面謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160191","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160191","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dffeb1147499f7f79b772d893bf7b7126ed146475ae9ed72cd8543b75889b48ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:08:46 - 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各位委員還有在場的與會先生 大家好今天非常榮幸有這個機會來討論這個人工智能"},{"start":14.705,"end":21.591,"text":"智慧基本草案的這樣子的一個會議那我就以下提出幾個重點來跟大家說明我想台灣不應該只是在歐盟的風險或者是在美國的市場導向當中取得折衷的一個做法而是應該要主動來提出屬於自己的台灣模式"},{"start":36.204,"end":50.635,"text":"在負責任的這個AI的應用跟產業的一個轉型當中其實要來展現台灣民主的一些韌性那我舉例來講其實我們可以接近這個加拿大他們在這個演算法的影響評估當中的一些制度那麼他來"},{"start":51.715,"end":78.256,"text":"透過所謂的保障透明跟信任打造我們自己屬於這個亞洲第一個AI民主的治理一個模式那第二點我想這個數位平權不應該只是一個空泛的一個口號而是要從這個制度的設計的語言開始建立我想在台灣其實不管是在偏鄉或者是高齡族群他們在使用這個網路的使用率其實目前為止其實還是有待這個提升的一個空間"},{"start":79.016,"end":94.602,"text":"那尤其是在這個寬頻跟普及跟網速的這個品質當中其實還是存在有些許的一些落差那自己直接會影響到AI應用的一個基礎設施那我建議是不是可以讓我們的這個科技普及性列為所謂的國家的義務"},{"start":95.502,"end":111.83,"text":"避免這個AI的發展它只變成所謂的這個數位精英的一個專利而是應該是要推動到全民共享的一個進步那另外呢其實我才提到一點就是根據這個美國國家兒童失蹤跟受虐兒童的這個援助中心他們的資料指出"},{"start":112.43,"end":128.67,"text":"在2023年他們接獲了4700份由AI生成的兒童性剝削的圖像或者是影片那這比前一年呢增加了12%這也凸顯到了這個AI有可能會威脅到所謂的弱勢族群他們的安全喔"},{"start":129.25,"end":145.98,"text":"所以在推動AI的同時其實要怎麼樣建立有效的一個監管的機制避免這些技術性滲透到社會的底層這是我的建議第三點我想AI應該不是只有是科技上的一個問題它更應該要關乎所謂的產業跟人權"},{"start":148.301,"end":157.046,"text":"我們常常要說這個要扶植台灣的AI的產業但是要思考就是當我們的產業在面臨這樣的一個挑戰雖然在台灣其實我們有很多的半導體製造業還有我們的醫療影像等等其實我們這些品質都已經是所謂的世界級的一個優勢了但是在AI的發展我們仍是屬於所謂的初期"},{"start":171.713,"end":198.576,"text":"所以我們應該是不是先聚焦在本土優勢的領域來推動AI的一個應用並導入AI倫理的一個審查能夠讓這個創新跟社會責任能夠並行發展好 那第四點是關於所謂的資料的治理其實是不容許所謂的這個模糊性的一個空間的存在那我想現行的個資法其實沒有辦法有效的處理非個資的資料的治理跟共享的一個問題"},{"start":199.577,"end":225.747,"text":"那這個點呢其實我們建議是不是可以參照歐盟他們在推動資料共享的一個架構那來成立這個資料公益信託或者是數據共管的一個平台讓這個資料呢從這個私人壟斷轉向所謂的公共利益來推動這個AI的發展的重要性那第五點呢就是AI跟勞動權益的不能對立啦應該是要共同的進化才對那我想呢根據這個預測這個AI呢將要"},{"start":228.451,"end":229.696,"text":"就可能取代"},{"start":232.837,"end":256.874,"text":"8500萬個的工作但是也因為AI的發展也可能會創造9700萬個新的職位我想這重點不是在於我們人力或者會不會被AI取代而是我們是不是可以有所謂的轉型的能量政府應該要提供更多支持的一些措施讓工會跟勞工來參與所謂AI轉型的過程當中的一些決策"},{"start":258.035,"end":282.758,"text":"那第六點呢我建議就是AI的主管機關應該是要設在所謂的這個訴法部而非國科會那我想AI其實它不是只有科研上的問題那更是應用在跨部門的整合的一些議題那訴法部呢作為所謂的數位政策的一個統合的單位統整的單位是更應該就是更適合負責這個AI的法規的推動跟執行"},{"start":284.124,"end":288.186,"text":"那第七點我想這個AI的發展還是要守住這個民主的一個防線所以要如何強化這個AI的國防的防護網那我想這AI的技術有可能會帶來一些國安上的一些危險風險那特別是來路不明的這些AI的模型"},{"start":300.814,"end":303.117,"text":"它有可能會透過所謂的滲透國防電網甚至在我們的醫療的體系當中這些基礎的設施成為我們的國安的一些漏洞所以像舉例像中國深層的這個深層式的一些AI"},{"start":315.831,"end":324.994,"text":"它也可能會用在所謂的認知作戰或者是選舉的干預來威脅我們的民主的制度所以我呼籲其實我們應該要建立所謂的AI國安的審查的機制來加強關鍵設施當中的這個AI的安全審查並且實施這個內容來源的一個標記還有就是政治性模型的一個透明的清單"},{"start":339.618,"end":361.433,"text":"來避免使用到來路不明的這個AI的模型那最後一點我想這個立法其實不能只是紙上談兵我們應該要如何來打造AI治理的這個行動的引擎剛剛其實志傑老師也特別有提到其實我們應該要設置這個沙盒試驗場域讓整個創新的應用可以在安全可控的條件下來做發展"},{"start":362.774,"end":381.266,"text":"我想AI的立法應該是要根據台灣的社會的需求還有民主的價值來做這樣子的一個設計那我們也希望能夠打造自己所謂的台灣的模式使得AI的技術能夠服務全體的人民讓我們來共享這樣子的一個社會進步的資源以上報告 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Codex其實用同樣的標準還有食用量的問題啊 署長還有我們的飲食文化所以當時為什麼對於豬腎臟特別提出來就是因為我們的飲食文化比較特殊啊"},{"start":279.7,"end":306.495,"text":"這個一定要納入考量啊所以你們現在的立場我們有把相關的基準其實都給我們這個談判的一個過程當中我們可以很好我們的建議我們對於它整個風險的部分其實我們特別提出來你們已經有給談判代表一個你們的建議了嗎我們有特別提到我們過去的一個風險的一個情形歷史上的因素所以你們的最終的建議是什麼就是維持現行的做法不用調整還是你們是持一個彈性可以讓他們去談"},{"start":308.294,"end":333.408,"text":"因為我們是以它的數字它的風險的鋪路這個署長你回答比較直接一點告訴我你們衛福部的立場到底是什麼當美國提出這樣的貿易障礙報告的時候我們的底線是什麼我們堅持的原則是什麼我們的底線就是以科學評估出來的數字當作是一個基準來做雙方去做最重要的談判的基準事實上目前我們能夠做的也是只有這一點"},{"start":334.048,"end":358.226,"text":"我覺得你們缺乏一個態度就是捍衛國人的健康你們講的這樣子就是模糊以對然後說什麼標準什麼標準就一句話就可以結束嗎如果過去我們認為這個是對的即使美國他提出了貿易障礙報告我們應該站在國人的健康的原則上面就是我們維持我們一貫的標準這個是我們不會去退讓的底線這句話不敢講嗎"},{"start":359.947,"end":364.491,"text":"還是你們根本就是鬆動了 所以才不敢講因為美國的壓力太大了報導委員 我們這邊其實是會計算我們國人設施的一個特殊所以要不要維持原來的標準嘛 我就問這句話嘛我們過去已經執行好多年了那是不是要繼續往下執行 就這樣就好"},{"start":383.268,"end":406.553,"text":"以科學的評估出來的標準當作是談判的基礎那你有沒有改變嗎因為他這萊克多巴胺局說以前交感神經的事物在哪裡都是一樣的我只是要行政部門一個答案那部長你回答好了我覺得署長的回答就是沒有辦法讓外界很清楚就是一個你的底線是什麼過去我們都"},{"start":407.293,"end":425.447,"text":"都守住這一個標準這一次美國貿易代表署他們又提出來了貿易障礙報告我們要退讓了嗎我想我剛剛再重複一下我想政府以及我們衛福部一樣都絕對是堅守人民的健康為最重要的一個立場"},{"start":426.267,"end":437.637,"text":"那剛剛署長也有提到我們提供我們衛福部是以專業的角色提供了科學的分析風險的一個分析給我們那個談判的團隊那你有沒有改變你的標準嗎我們的標準就是依照跟過去都一模一樣嗎還是你們有鬆動你們有沒有改變我在問的是這個嘛"},{"start":454.144,"end":468.43,"text":"我們是國人要知道是說你現在是不是還是繼續守住過去以來你們的標準然後你們態度立場還是要去限制我想政府對於人民的健康的守護是絕對不會鬆動的好你就是這句話不會鬆動這個才是重點不會鬆動對人民健康維護的決心好"},{"start":475.072,"end":498.75,"text":"所以部長你這句話我要的就是這句話就是要非常明確的一個底線跟立場那所以另外一個問題就是所以當然就是要依照基改食品依照當然就是風險評估還有科學這過去都評估過了所以才會做出政策所以我們過去都已經評估過了還有加上我們的文化因素所以才會是訂定這樣的一個標準那另外一個玉米跟大豆的基改"},{"start":499.651,"end":507.486,"text":"的這一些食品他也覺得不可以有兩種稅號應該要全面的解禁這件事情你們的態度跟立場是什麼"},{"start":508.936,"end":528.685,"text":"有鬆豆嗎就我們現在對基因改造的玉米大豆這部分是列在食品安全管理法內的所以在食品安全管理法沒有在修正之前我們的是依法的行政來執行那會不會因為美國的壓力你們自己就要提出修法要去修食安法裡面的第24條現在24條裡面我們是很明確的規定吼含有"},{"start":532.927,"end":542.911,"text":"基改食品的這個原料成分都是要標示的未來你們會不會因為美方的壓力你們自己就提出修法要把這一條改掉了會不會你們的底線是什麼會會不會"},{"start":548.018,"end":572.907,"text":"我想針對基因改造相關的食品這個議題其實在先進的國家目前在叫基因編輯非常精準的農業的部分那個部分可能是在跨在另外一個農業部的裡面的專業底下所以在不同的一個時空背景底下會不會有進一步的一個調整這目前我們在食安法裡面24條的列的是條列是非常非常清楚的我們是依照上面條列的在執行"},{"start":574.059,"end":587.284,"text":"就是將來即使談判完之後你們敢不敢保證這一條衛福部的立場是不會鬆動的在食安法裡面現行的規定不可能再去提出修法的改變你們基本的態度跟立場是什麼 部長"},{"start":588.735,"end":604.652,"text":"你現在敢回答嗎還是不敢一切的一個決策我想政府跟衛福部都一樣真的還是考慮的最重要的還是一定要守護人民的健康好 守護人民的健康不要因為政治壓力而轉彎為什麼我在這邊要問得這麼的清楚"},{"start":607.995,"end":635.323,"text":"因為如果我們看到從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統基本上兩個總統的立場就不一樣了蔡英文總統的時候他就是落實食品標示食品來源國到了賴清德總統的時候他主動提到他要排除非關稅貿易障礙而剛剛我讓你看到的這個由美國他的貿易代表所提出來的報告他就是認定剛剛講的"},{"start":637.183,"end":646.99,"text":"這一些是關稅貿易障礙但我們的賴總統說要排除所以當然國人就很擔心啊不同的總統立場不一樣所以當賴總統說要開放的時候部長你敢反對嗎"},{"start":652.216,"end":675.9,"text":"我想我歷任兩任的總統我都很瞭解他們對於人民的健康的維護絕對是不遺餘力這是沒有變的所以你對賴總統有信心好當然有信心好那我希望我們是可以捍衛住因為我現在看到賴總統態度是鬆動的接下來我就問這個藥品跟醫材的部分現在美方"},{"start":676.52,"end":694.856,"text":"還沒有公佈他關於藥品的這個關稅但是我們看到事實上我們跟美國的這個藥品的相關進出口的情況我們對美國是逆差其實我們從美方進口的藥品還比較多我們是逆差那出現逆差又不是順差的情況他還要再提高我們的關稅 部長這樣合理嗎"},{"start":698.243,"end":724.741,"text":"目前藥品還沒有還是免關稅啊但是他說藥品的部分下一步會不會在這個談但是我們我們已變應變嘛我們已經過去我們已經很好的一個體系在應變了嘛所以基本上我們是可以迎接任何的挑戰所以也不應該再加關稅對不對因為基本上現在美國進口到我們的藥品還比較多我們當然盡量爭取"},{"start":727.183,"end":733.19,"text":"互惠跟三養但是最近這個議題行政院編的880億裡面我們的衛福部其實是零預算就是在各部會的預算裡面你們沒有被安排那萬一在我們的一些相關的藥廠他們受到衝擊的時候需要補助的時候"},{"start":747.346,"end":750.307,"text":"部長你錢從哪裡來為什麼獨漏我們的衛福部他忽略了這個整個關稅之戰可能對於藥品類也會產生衝擊從原料的部分的成本的提高然後到後面的這一些我們的進出口可能受到衝擊為什麼獨漏衛福部衛福部在這一波裡面你們是話外之地沒有關係"},{"start":771.535,"end":789.711,"text":"謝謝委員的垂行那我想社會的挑戰國際的挑戰是一波一波的那第一波裡面就沒有藥品這個部分你覺得你們從幾時比較想當然而且我們也不會有缺藥的也沒有缺藥已經那如果萬一有到藥品的時候你的錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":792.253,"end":814.516,"text":"我相信政府有必要政府就會像今年 今年一樣能夠給不管是在我們的健保的成長率或者是公務預算的補助我相信政府都會準備好那至於現在就沒有這個問題所以大家也不要過度擔心我們已經都 我們要提早做好風險的管控就是因為我們做好提早的準備所以才不用擔心"},{"start":816.066,"end":838.551,"text":"你們是連預算都沒有準備所以我才很擔心啦這個我覺得還是要好好的去因應啦現在第一波的時候行政院是沒有想到這一塊所以也沒有給你們錢所以我今天早上已經談很久就是我們不管是在藥品醫材所以我只問你啦如果有衝擊到的時候你的預算從哪裡來880億沒裂魂啦那你的錢要從哪裡來你告訴大家就好"},{"start":839.346,"end":860.458,"text":"我想我們就要看他的到底長的量整個國際的情勢的一個變化我們隨時都有人家其他部會勞動部也有一百多億就是傳在那裡農業部也有一百多億放在那裡但是衛福部是沒有提到每一個預算都是有他要去用的地方那我們現在目前在要價這個部分"},{"start":863.297,"end":872.711,"text":"至少在第一個階段裡面我們目前你們覺得不會受衝擊不是不會受衝擊是足可應付衝擊的那你是用你健保的錢嗎你的錢從哪裡來"},{"start":878.385,"end":899.864,"text":"因為健保的成長率今年也比較高所以我們比較有空間來做成長但如果有必要會去影響到健保我相信我們政府絕對會沒有把握去爭取到預算就對了但是你現在其實沒有880億是還沒拿到錢因為低階段不會有影響我要確定的就是這個好謝謝謝謝翁委員"}]}},{"id":"160176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df716d2b3a929529f3d598beef862d51bb9b98284df90a891abd9c4a74a059f27d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:24:04 - 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謝謝"},{"start":182.733,"end":206.801,"text":"確保藥品供應維持合理要價冒號經主管機關公告之必要藥品並符合同分組內有國內製造品項並符合同分組內有國內製造品項抗維生物質既不在此限這個重複了抱歉即從分組分類未遇及同分組分類"},{"start":208.903,"end":210.606,"text":"這個好像有三個品項的條件當年度要駕步與調整"},{"start":216.38,"end":238.525,"text":"以確保藥品供貨穩定 平衡藥價調整與健保支出再為我今天要多一點點時間你看都是他們資料有問題第一個署長你讀不懂嘛對不對讀不通讀不通因為沒有整理文字沒有確定就把它交上來嘛那對我們來說這很重要然後請問你健保署有所謂的必要藥品嗎"},{"start":239.775,"end":267.263,"text":"我們是參考這個FDA所訂的那個必要藥品清單請等一下健保署沒有必要藥品這四個字育文組長對不對沒有我們這個這次修法才有你的名稱是什麼你的名稱是什麼你不叫必要藥品因為你為了當年為了怕跟食藥署混在一起叫什麼特什麼他只要回答名字就好了我時間也很寶貴叫特殊叫我們特殊品"},{"start":267.703,"end":296.639,"text":"早就改了嗎我們叫特殊品對你們沒有必要藥品清單時書長你們沒有必要而且是2016年之前就改了現在我們在修法就是修這個就是藥價調整辦法修進來的這是新的草案條文時書長你剛剛第一個就是文字儀化整理大家看不懂而且我覺得三項以內應該就是不予調整要予調整這個讀起來都很奇怪還有兩位署長再麻煩你看部長就在旁邊了解你們兩個的必要藥品括號你叫特殊藥品你叫必要品"},{"start":297.539,"end":318.871,"text":"你有幾項 實屬者你有幾項必要 那個特殊品項有幾項我們現在以這個新的修法的剛剛這個條文的話是跟食藥署是一致的我們是用必要藥品一樣的名稱現在我們一直在處理啊你是叫特殊品項 而且你還裡面分兩類嘛沒有替代性跟有替代性的嘛然後你現在有幾項"},{"start":320.154,"end":340.951,"text":"你還沒修法都不要講我們現在有800多項啦好 你看 你兩個有幣過嗎?你的800跟你的500 你們有幣過嗎?好 關關這個問題要解決這個什麼關稅的那個牌效你們的必要清單就都沒有了我今天在資訊廣告還沒有用那個FDA的必要藥品清單都在我們這個裡面"},{"start":343.735,"end":358.306,"text":"我們都包含在裡頭了好像不是喔 署長我對他置身三十年好像不是這樣 都是有專家認定的部長 你看 我先問你 不然兩位先回座好了這個署長 施署長 我等一下其實本來要告訴你你說可以調整 因為更不夠 必須調整但是你知道調整的過程要多久嗎"},{"start":365.771,"end":374.756,"text":"還有什麼步驟嗎 你知道嗎我們當然調整的過程還是需要跟廠商去議價那也要經過共同議會議通過不是不是 你要經過專家會議他經過共同議會議然後你要認定調價你允許 因為這太特別了這一次的調價你平常不是這麼做的你平常就算他們提出成本分析你都要去判斷說有沒有類似藥品其實成分不一樣有沒有類似藥品可以用有沒有 那個很判斷"},{"start":394.046,"end":419.391,"text":"很主觀的東西所以第一個你還說這個是必要品你先讓他申請你要不要認定認定可不可以調之後第二個才我怎麼調法或不調然後你的屬下堅持要分開會議處理要兩次會議處理我曾經提案在你還沒有開除我之前我曾經提案說兩件事一起處理不要等時間因為既然是重要的藥品缺藥過去也有缺藥不是現在才缺藥啊"},{"start":420.171,"end":445.187,"text":"但是你的步驟是這樣 你知道總共多少嗎跟委員報告 在這次書役的時候我們就採取了快速的處理 那個沒有問題我們這一次已經有經驗了你的專家群會再去認定啊所以你這次報告寫的東西 不對嘛因為報告寫裡面的必要清單我們就會給予這個 如果說因為關稅等等要這樣改變 我們就去處理但是你的專家可不是這樣講因為你的上情從來不下達專家還是用他原來那一套在跑好嗎"},{"start":448.435,"end":472.155,"text":"不過這個現在我們就很清楚了我們跟這次的修正辦法就是跟食藥署同步我們採用一樣的標準他認定的過程喔而且他認定還分兩次會議對不對 藝文組長沒錯吧結果我這次先認定你是不是屬於我們認為我們需要的不是你講的必要名單喔不是說放在必要清單特殊品項就直接調不是喔你就先說好"},{"start":473.436,"end":496.655,"text":"我先認定一次好下次會議也不知道一次個月還兩個月後好我再來認定好可能還是不調喔可能還是不調喔因為調價是兩件事認定跟調價兩件事情你們現在作業是這樣做的對當然是要有必要才調當然是這樣啊這個藥品一定要分開嗎沒有可替代的我們才調有替代的我們當然用替代還是要為健保省錢啊保管啊都在清單裡面啊那你的清單是假的"},{"start":499.997,"end":514.409,"text":"清單有兩種處理在這個必要藥品 清單剛剛我提到的是在調整藥價的時候它是稀缺品項 我們不予調價另外一個是調整 要調高調高那個是根據34條 35條來 要不夠剛剛回答的是那個特殊品項是800多必要藥品我們現在是跟FDA同步了所以我們才在修這個辦法的目的就是在這裡讓它同步"},{"start":527.628,"end":541.742,"text":"是他跟你同步還是你跟他同步你是要付錢的喔他的必要品可能不付錢喔你這個兩位署長你們要搞清楚你一個是負責發證讓這個藥品可以進來必要藥品我們一定會納入給付必要藥品一定納入給付"},{"start":542.813,"end":562.335,"text":"你過去不是這樣的原則的喔那我再跟你講一次你現在沒有必要藥品從我在這裡就是用這個原則在處理這件事沒有沒有你一直上情不下達你沒有進去開會啊你沒有進去開專家會議啊我在那邊30年了你沒有進去開會啊一直都不是這樣所以我今天真的是為了這個報告我今天的質詢稿都不能講了"},{"start":563.656,"end":578.471,"text":"我今天看你們第一個你們兩個署很重要一個上游是許可證進來然後大家等著要健保給付你這個兩端大家從來不牽手各自做各自的你看大家也聽到到目前為止因為你說要準備修法"},{"start":578.871,"end":596.3,"text":"可是到目前為止你的必要清單跟你的以前叫必要清單後來叫特殊因為你們怕confuse在一起你們還擔心混淆在一起所以你們特別切割特別去切割然後又為了怕這個跟什麼WHO的必要品清單混在一起這件事一塌糊塗"},{"start":597.501,"end":602.286,"text":"然後處理方式都不一樣啊那現在說你要跟他看齊欸這麼快嗎幾百項要跟他看齊但是看齊了以後等到缺藥那你也不去處理要價啊那個處理要價另外一套規則你那幾十個專家委員從來沒有聽過你這套規則他們處理的方法幾十年都一樣還是用他們主觀的感覺去決定我要不要給你調降啊就算他給你成本分析你還是不給他動啊"},{"start":622.062,"end":628.151,"text":"我們今年在要價調整的時候就已經調整了200項都是調整要價油啊"},{"start":629.178,"end":658.087,"text":"有這個機制啊那不是必要藥品反正我今天因為我是針對你們的題目你們的書面資料我也讓部長知道部長當然不會知道這麼仔細第一個兩個各自有他的自己清單從來幾十年來從來不簽手的各自做各自的那健保署為了付錢有他自己的遊戲規則而且就是盡量時間很慢幾個月會通過一半以上都不給予調整"},{"start":659.387,"end":680.1,"text":"調生價錢或是調尤其是調生你們是非常非常小氣的完全就是等等等等然後到最後導致生理食鹽水嘛剩一家嘛對不對江署長生理食鹽水會搞到這樣就是因為他後來剩一家你不知道你的監測機制出問題嘛剩一家你都不注意你叫要他通報你一直盯他可是其他人沒有辦法再備著支援備用所以你這邊斷了"},{"start":681.061,"end":689.729,"text":"然後斷了以後健保署才不知道說我今天沒辦法談要價差你付25他賣18其他人撐不住就這一家長在撐用18塊撐到他也撐不住品質了出問題了然後林次長去國外買買51塊不准有要價差而且去年花了3、4億今年又變了11億11億等著犯錯穩定生理食鹽水穩定專案經濟有責任"},{"start":706.757,"end":717.44,"text":"謝謝委員那我們其實特別跟委員報告我們3月24號這個供應的國內的廠已經恢復他的產線所以我們3月24號的監督機制就是怎麼去訪問我剛剛的重點說你哪必要清單都不一樣但是你們只記得以強化我特別讓你們以強化廠商的通報責任在廠商嘛你要通報廠商沒有必要負責我總共台灣有幾家在供應嘛所以這個供應的問題中央公司監測是由我們官方要來處理嘛不能當一家獨大然後那一家品質出問題"},{"start":735.726,"end":752.014,"text":"可能就是藥價差搞成沒有辦法沒有辦法用錢去生產有品質的所以全國大斷藥啊基本用就沒有了健保署是很後來的事情去調整的事情我今天你看以後把資料弄清楚然後把名詞弄清楚"},{"start":752.714,"end":775.275,"text":"食藥署迄今沒有必要藥品的清單食藥署的必要清單是用自己管理的不是為了讓廠商通報廠商通報只是其中他們要做的一件工作你要從中央控制不要再讓生理食鹽水這麼它還不算必要藥品我認為它是基本的用藥你沒有生理食鹽水更不能開業好嗎台灣的醫療業都不要營業了它是基本的用藥還不是必要必不必要的問題"},{"start":776.396,"end":777.137,"text":"非常謝謝我們委員做專業的一個建議要簽手 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等一下我覺得再讓署長再做補充因為下一頁也是剛剛講的零關稅"},{"start":296.074,"end":318.819,"text":"所以台灣健保的那個收窄的藥品大概一萬四千多項其中從美國進口的藥品品項大概一百七十七項一年佔我們健保藥費的支出大概十%左右所以台灣藥品的超過六成都是來自國外所以對藥價跟供應波動非常的敏感所以這次波"},{"start":320.139,"end":347.554,"text":"這一波的危機不是只有在美國可能還是可能是全球所以時書長這邊西藥進口商他倡議就是說是不是應該要承認以獲得美國FDA或歐盟的EMA核准的處方簽以縮短我們的查驗登記的程序跟時間降低國際藥品輸入門檻所以健保署對此的態度如何甚至是不是可以能夠"},{"start":349.354,"end":358.439,"text":"兩方在美國那邊甚至在我們台灣是不是也都可以爭取彼此的承認先做一點點補充因為是新藥"},{"start":362.748,"end":388.702,"text":"精準的高高精準的藥物新藥在國際上FDA審過了是不是所謂的平行的一個承認的概念嗎那我們對於精準的一些高度的新的用藥來講對於一些疾病尖端的治療我們認為這個是有很大的空間可以去討論的因為國內目前對於藥證的審查裡面有幾種一般普通的審查那有部分其實是加速的審查"},{"start":389.21,"end":394.896,"text":"對 那我們現在是不是可以 我說因為孝敬偶像去倡議說是不是可以"},{"start":395.717,"end":420.033,"text":"整個查驗的那個可以縮短查驗登記的程序跟時間來降低這個部分是縮短查驗登記的時間事實上我們食藥署這邊持續在進行當中那至於我們剛才看到的是說我們假如國外FDA承認的它的藥物裡面非常多種舉例它有很多的學民的用藥它勢必如果是直接平行的話那這部分我們其實不是那麼支持"},{"start":420.493,"end":432.892,"text":"因為它很快速就會佔據整個台灣的學民用藥以及本土的藥業的發展的所以這個知識體大我們要重新思考但對於新的藥物專利杞仁藥物假如有個機會讓"},{"start":434.813,"end":463.27,"text":"民眾提早可以用到這是我們持續在做加速審查也是我們持續在做的一件事情那再麻煩我們的食藥署這邊那那西藥進口商比較擔心產業受到的衝擊所以國產製藥也在4月藥商也在4月14號也提出幾項訴求了所以首先先問部長三大公協會他要求政府在健康台灣全社會訪問任性政策推動上"},{"start":464.49,"end":480.282,"text":"應該把社區藥局跟藥廠還有我們的醫財廠整個產業界的都能夠在你們開會裡邊納入他們一起來做討論那在這邊你可不可以給出具體的承諾"},{"start":481.577,"end":506.128,"text":"如果在全社會防疫任性裡面我們很清楚委員裡面就是有藥界的代表所以大概有什麼意見在這個防疫任性的一個委員會裡面都會有有藥廠跟醫材廠嗎 甚至社區藥局足夠代表嗎應該是 因為民和有限嘛所以我們目前是邀請藥師公會理事長"},{"start":507.288,"end":524.441,"text":"在裡面擔任委員,他也提供很寶貴的意見,協助了我們整個醫療的一個韌性那至於剛剛您提的這三大公會的訴求,我們很感謝我們健保署非常的用心,針對這一直的訴求在去年11月21號公告的一些"},{"start":529.805,"end":558.209,"text":"政策 那到1月20已經那個 這一段期間真的健保署的同仁也很辛苦把大家的意見再整理得好希望送到部裡面的時候能夠很快的來公告 來真正給給國內的製藥最大的一個幫助這部分請那個市長補充一點市長這邊也在他的第二個訴求事實上是能夠促進學民藥的替代所以你這部分 因為我看你們製藥事實上是規劃當中可不可以加速"},{"start":559.109,"end":573.795,"text":"跟委員報告對於這個我們國內的整個健保一萬四千多個品項裡頭其實83%是屬於國內製造是佔了很大宗的那但是呢它的整個申報金額大概只有23%所以如何就簡單的講說它是這個"},{"start":576.556,"end":601.287,"text":"物聯價美啦所以我們是很希望去多鼓勵這個學民藥或者生物相似藥的使用所以我們在去年開始推動這個學民使用這個生物相似藥的這個獎勵措施所以本來它的佔率只有7%今年一年直施下來大概提升到13%那我們希望朝向30%這個目標來前進所以今年下半年還會再擴大那麼這個化學"},{"start":604.648,"end":620.641,"text":"化療的學名藥大概什麼時候下半年因為我們還要經過那個專家會議清單出來然後共同擬定會議通過就可以那楊署長這邊他的第三個訴求是因未來預期我們國際藥價的漲價對國產"},{"start":624.133,"end":644.31,"text":"我們的藥商一定會產生一些衝擊那健保要價要及時反映市場價格做調動是不是說到這邊也有我們在這個藥品支付標準第34條跟35條它都有因應這個如果生產供應鏈改變成本不敷的時候可以提出這個臨時的調整藥價這個是有這個機制可以來進行所以這個機制都有"},{"start":650.953,"end":667.786,"text":"本來原定4月要公布實施的叫做全民健康保險藥物給付項目跟支付標準跟全民健康保險藥品價格跟調整的作業辦法這兩項那請問一下署長月底前可不可以如期公布實施"},{"start":668.326,"end":680.501,"text":"跟委員報告 謝謝委員很關切這兩個法案這一個是藥價調整辦法主要是要針對如果有國內製造屬於必要藥品品項在三項以下的當年度不調整藥價所以這個我們已經修好了"},{"start":683.544,"end":704.568,"text":"還有一個是支付標準對於國內製造使用國內的原料要都有加成的規定還有鼓勵這個新藥首先在台灣上市或者是在國外上市的兩年內到台灣來製造都有鼓勵的措施那因為是1月20號完成預告所以我們把這個大家的意見意見整理之後已經現在在做簽辦這個月底"},{"start":709.009,"end":710.83,"text":"因為現在是按照程序然後把所有的意見都弄好 弄成一個比較好的法規因為時間有效 稍微再給我一點時間藥品價格波動同樣衝擊我們國產的那個製藥的原"},{"start":730.479,"end":747.953,"text":"原料料的一個價格那我們看那個官務署的那個海關統計2022年自中國進口的原料的金額佔總金額的54%那如果由於中國原料料的價格都是比印度的原料料價格打7折所以從數量來看的話大概中國是佔70%"},{"start":751.007,"end":769.535,"text":"所以不只台灣全球都因為受到這種低價的吸引所以想問部長如果接下來要是抓住原藥料不出口的話台灣的國產製藥必定陷入在困境裡面所以在台灣對中國的高度依賴狀況下你怎麼去因應這個問題"},{"start":770.711,"end":791.419,"text":"好我想這個不管是燃料要用相關的物品第一個真的是全球的趨勢都是強調就地生產就地行銷這個部分可能未來要加強的那當然我們也會所以能不能考量多元化的分散市場的觀念來處理那這個食藥署的署長再補充一下"},{"start":796.055,"end":822.188,"text":"我想委員這邊提到非常關鍵的議題的確我們在原料藥的來源中國跟印度佔的比相當高超過近50%以上所以近年來我們其實是極度的在支持跟國內的新的原料藥的生產比如說在去年裡面我們國內的申請的張數其實高達27張那我們希望未來能夠做分散我們可以看到不管是在歐洲系統"},{"start":823.008,"end":844.96,"text":"還是在亞洲地區的日本都是有機會讓我們政府去爭取的方向所以我想問一下部長能不能對我們的國產製藥廠做價差的貼布因為畢竟我們台灣有三十幾間的原藥藥廠可是每年反而是去外銷所以能不能讓國產的原藥料留在台灣"},{"start":847.063,"end":870.342,"text":"這個請你們去做考慮然後也請食藥署這邊是不是立刻盤點我覺得政府應該要去充分掌握說我們使用中國原藥料這樣的一個潛在危機所以你應該要去了解整個去針對中國的原藥料應該從政府手中的資料去勾結出來能夠去做對照到底哪些"},{"start":871.261,"end":896.951,"text":"優先品項你們這邊要充分掌握最後就是期待是不是因為八大藥業的工會上週都提出說縮短不利醫院採購藥品到期前有效期8個月縮短到6個月那食藥署這邊對這個表示說只要藥品只要在出廠標示的有效期限內都能確保藥效因此有效期限縮短不影響藥效的話那"},{"start":898.769,"end":912.403,"text":"可是卻可以降低到我們的藥商庫存的藥品壓力我不知道部長你的回應這個呼籲藥界的訴求都有它的道理但是它有採購有一定的專家的一個會議"},{"start":913.397,"end":934.875,"text":"這個在部立 因為你問部立業嘛 我請林慶豐執行長簡料的回答一下好 報告委員 最主要是我們的整個聯標是26家部立還有18個縣市還有所有的這個縣市衛生局所啦所以它這個所謂的大小規模不一樣 地域不一樣所以它在這個部分裡面有偏鄉離島那所以他們牽涉到就是他們裡面的"},{"start":935.815,"end":951.804,"text":"需求剛剛部長特別提到說因為我們是一個藥聯標委員會所以裡面有含有各醫院的院長還有藥劑主任還有專家學者所以他們都在統籌裡面也調查所有的醫院還有衛生所的需求所以在這個部分裡面我們也是尊重我們的現在藥聯標委員會它裡面的決議"},{"start":954.005,"end":980.953,"text":"那第三個其實現在現行的體系的醫院包含台大或是退府會或是說軍方還有一些是聯誼他們都是在八個月以上甚至還有一年所以在這部分裡面其實我們都是交給我們的聯邦委員會因為我這邊最後就提出這五項請我們的部長這邊針對這五項後面待會我們會再持續追蹤但後面我也有那個臨時停案我們願意持續努力謝謝"},{"start":984.846,"end":987.449,"text":"好 謝謝 請回 安寧要安重一點"}]}},{"id":"160185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160185","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df406e7c9dddc7cdded598beef862d51bb9b98284df90a891acfd5e39c6a8a3cb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:37:41 - 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謝謝各位委員還有官員我們請邱部長 謝謝邱部長現在已經是4月16號請問你過去做立委的時候啊這是您109年 110年 111年 112年啊您過去做立委的時候 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我們會盡快 請委員放心可以 教育部長也說盡快 所以他講兩到三週那您的盡快是多少我想我們衛福部也要至少要跟教育部一起兩到三週你要追求教育部兩到三週你要不要先從你覺得最重要的開始 要不要"},{"start":340.899,"end":356.049,"text":"呃 也可以啊而且我查了一下哈當時陳時中部長一邊在應付疫情非常的忙碌但是他交這個結論報告從來沒有delay過都是3月初喔好 那好 你也是兩到三週嘛你是兩到三週嘛 對吧是吧是 是兩到三週我想我們時間上齁我想我們不要去做那個"},{"start":366.704,"end":377.959,"text":"你剛才說你會配合教育部對但是但是如果說你說要我醫院要兩到三週我當然就會接著說我們希望兩到三週送你覺得最重要的這樣怎麼樣我們來努力"},{"start":381.829,"end":385.872,"text":"沒有答案再來我們來問經濟部有沒有發現我們藥品的逆差是48.2億元所以剛雖然有講到說進口的藥美國的藥 歐洲的藥不管進口的藥雖然數量佔的不多但其他的價值佔了七成因為它的藥費是貴的"},{"start":404.944,"end":425.851,"text":"這是貴的這也是我們的製藥工會統計出來的所以當然您有提到說這個供應鏈的生態啊原物料的漲價一定會造成藥價變貴那我現在是想問啊您有提到說您會扶植在地的廠商所以有兩個行政辦法修正案嘛剛剛也有許多人講到了"},{"start":426.311,"end":436.572,"text":"之前好像有點嚴當但是最近的新聞又說4月要上路請問這個4月要上路是確定要上路是會跳票還是不會因為之前跳票了一次"},{"start":437.401,"end":456.502,"text":"好 我跟委員報告齁 我們完全 據瞭解完全沒有延宕而且我還敬佩健保署的同仁在時事長領導之下把這兩個政策做得非常的完美而且在11月20號就預告那因為有很多的一些意見所以我們必須 這已經是"},{"start":458.084,"end":479.148,"text":"其他在對等其他的法案規定已經是最快的速度很快會送到衛福部來那我想一定會是4月上路符合大家的需要4月會上路那現在是4月中嘛如果我想這幾天應該就會完成我們用最快的速度來公告所以您預計做出應該4月底好我們也想問因為這個也是台灣致藥業滿關切的你預計做出什麼成績那民眾會對藥價會有什麼感受"},{"start":486.77,"end":506.798,"text":"您預計做出什麼成績請政策擬定時事長來跟委員報告這裡面分成幾塊第一個當然就是剛剛提到對國內製藥的支持所以我們在藥價調整辦法裡面有新修對於這個"},{"start":508.138,"end":535.001,"text":"必要藥品清單裡頭那麼國內的這個品項有國內製造的品項然後那個該組裡面少於三個品項以下的那我們就免於這個當年度我們就不調藥價所以藥價不會一直往下砍的意思那同時這裡面呢如果是有一個必要抗生素的話連國際進來的我們也都一起比照所以這個是第一個那第二個呢我們在這個置物標準裡面也有一些"},{"start":535.521,"end":552.107,"text":"支持的措施那麼譬如說呢你是使用國內的原料要我們加價10%在國內做過的臨床試驗有發表paper這個讓這個學名要有這個公信力那這個我們也是加價10%的那另外我們也去鼓勵這個"},{"start":554.608,"end":570.986,"text":"這個新藥的上市過去我們只有對於台灣的首發新藥就是全球首發我們才有這個優惠的價但我們現在也去鼓勵如果你是在國際先上市的兩年內到國內來製造的這種新藥我們也有合價的優惠措施這邊我也是"},{"start":571.306,"end":594.04,"text":"當他們請命啦因為他們有提到說之後如果他們證明他們生產成本有增加的話其實你也會適當反映在要價調整機制中嘛這個不管對於進口廠商還有國內廠商您都會一樣做但是國內呢他們還有面臨一個隱形的成本也就是說水費啊電費啊通膨啊所以他們希望在這個您可不可以考慮把它納入"},{"start":596.314,"end":612.824,"text":"就是水電費我記得上次的電費有特別有處理過委員也有協助醫院醫療端還有通棚那再來想問一下因為部長非常在意的是這個"},{"start":614.466,"end":632.046,"text":"戰備任性的藥品的這個list嗎因為您現在上次我們經歷了生理鹹水這個混亂其實藥品它是一個非常重要的戰略物資所以未來一旦發生供應鏈中斷或是遞原的風險我們應該要怎麼辦請問我們可以跟你要到這個list嗎因為裡面一定有東西是"},{"start":633.447,"end":658.943,"text":"獨佔或是寡佔我們絕對只能仰賴進口的你想得出來哪一些嘛比如說剛剛有提到的癌藥啊 罕病藥啊還有在專利期之內的啊COVID的用藥啊 COVID的疫苗啊等等這個您定不定義為是一個戰略物資我們戰略物資是另外一塊我們是定義的就是跟食藥署合作的必要藥品清單好 所以我們之後可以跟您要到這個清單嗎應該有"},{"start":662.145,"end":689.64,"text":"報告委員這584項所謂必要藥品的清單是我們已經在今年2月份已經公佈完全已經確立下來所以可以提供給委員另外第二個部分特別提到所謂的戰備的相關的藥物的韌性的時候是有25項的舉例是抗生素裡面的amoxicillin的抗生素譬如說epinephrine,arthropine等等的我們比較在意的是這個戰備清單裡面有沒有一定會是"},{"start":690.62,"end":701.356,"text":"大部分仰賴進口的因為這個絕對有我們目前都是國產的COVID用藥還在專利期所以COVID用藥我們大部分是仰賴進口對 這個是"},{"start":704.031,"end":711.578,"text":"你沒有把它放進戰備物資 並不是特別的戰備 戰備物資是在暫時平時轉鑽石 非常非常關鍵的用藥特別是在戰傷的那個部分好沒關係 這個我們等拿到您的這份list我們可以再一樣樣逐項討論那再來也問一個這個醫界非常關心的問題因為下一波呢"},{"start":725.331,"end":750.834,"text":"川普要談判的就是對於這個藥品那藥品他目前很強調的這個也是我們都在業內所以我們也知道現在這些美商啦美國的藥廠啊他其實長期就是非常介意我們有許多的非關稅貿易壁壘你審查他的新藥太久啦你給付他的藥價太低啊等等其實也嚴重的妨礙到我們病人的權益尤其是有一些"},{"start":751.354,"end":767.611,"text":"癌症病人他們希望可以用到新藥等等的所以在這未來90天的談判藥品的談判藥品進口的談判一定會是很重要的一環我想知道這個你們有沒有派出衛福部的代表一起參與這一次的談判我想要"},{"start":771.691,"end":794.986,"text":"藥品醫材是雙方面的啦所以至少到現在是用零關稅在互相對待我們比較擔心的是說在整個關稅的這樣的一個變動當中的確成本會增加那這個部分我們國內已經很早都有一個從一個及早來監測然後缺藥的一個處理然後藥價的一個調整"},{"start":797.908,"end":813.274,"text":"都已經很完整了所以現階段是沒有缺藥的問題我現在沒有再跟你講缺藥第一個是成本增加第二個他要談的是很多非關稅貿易壁壘也就是他希望打破以前他禁藥禁台灣的這些障礙他要把它列入他的談判項目白話文來說白話文來說"},{"start":820.518,"end":828.692,"text":"就是說就是如果我們價格談不攏他就不想進台灣影響到病人的權益但是如果我們硬著頭皮把這些進口藥買進來"},{"start":830.745,"end":855.451,"text":"很多醫生真的很擔心會壓縮到我們的健保點子啊所以我想問你的因應是什麼因為這個就是他們放在非關稅貿易壁壘裡面很重要的一個項目也是長期我們看這些外商的藥廠來跟我們遊說的嘛他們就是說我們這審查很慢嘛然後給他的價格非常的低有的人就乾脆不想進來了嘛"},{"start":856.909,"end":871.721,"text":"好 包委我想在談判的事情並不是非A及B而是有雙方共同創造利益共同創造三領的局面站在我們的政府絕對是站在人民健康的維護"},{"start":873.703,"end":876.005,"text":"那個立場上來做相關的談判那中間有很多很有智慧的一個互動所以你會派代表一起參與我們一直在各種層次的一個幕僚我們當然都有充分的把我們的這一邊的醫藥品醫療的醫療體系"},{"start":893.159,"end":899.021,"text":"藥品醫材方面的一個資訊以及我們盤點的進入一個幕僚再盤判的我先在這邊跟部長示警因為我覺得未來我們勢必這個健保總額一定是不足的因為你說他是零關稅沒錯但是我們現在第一波所有這些鋁"},{"start":913.886,"end":935.515,"text":"包裝的材料啊玻璃瓶啊等等就是我們藥品製造裡面大量用到的包裝材料所以他賣進來的錢是一定增加的他賣進來的錢是一定增加的所以未來這個是部長你很大的一個挑戰我相信我們還會在這邊就健保點值在同樣一個問題我們還會再談論到他"},{"start":938.536,"end":941.84,"text":"委員報告一下真的很感謝我們立法院尤其衛反這些委員前輩們的努力我們今年的健保總額成長是有史以來最高的同時政府也給了預算所以應該是醫療的韌性"},{"start":953.712,"end":974.067,"text":"你兵力成長總和的時候還沒發生這件事情如果未來我們當然有一個趨勢如果需要的話我相信政府一樣會秉持著像今年給我們這麼多的一個預算一樣來充分的讓我們的人民健康得到最好的保障請放心這邊就是先給您一個示警一個提醒大家一起努力謝謝不好意思召委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160184","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df0d578c006c1457e6772d893bf7b7126e9b98284df90a891a79e30822738802ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:49:04 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Act的分級方式但是也要納入美國所強調的用途導向影響導向的原則比方說AI如果只是用來寫文案畫插圖啦或是課堂練習風險當然是相對非常的低但是如果它今天用在於司法判決醫療診斷"},{"start":168.068,"end":179.616,"text":"求職審查這些可能就屬於高風險的系統就需要更嚴格的一個審查機制那更重要的是我們應該要明確的界定風險的醫務人到底是開發者使用者"},{"start":180.914,"end":197.68,"text":"然後誰負責了系統的安全誰負責資料透明等等不能夠發生問題之後就各部門互踢皮球然後廠商也不用負責等等所以我認為我們在設計AI基本法的時候除了考量到產業跟技術部分也要把人的基本權益一起納入來思考"},{"start":198.8,"end":220.854,"text":"那同時我也知道產業也會有點擔心就是說因為AI的變化實在是太快了如果我們把一個相對的法則放進來的時候可能也會限縮了一個AI的發展所以我想這個部分也是大家可能我們未來在制定相關法律的時候也是要一併來考量的那最後呢我要來強調AI基本法並不是要限制創新而是要提供清楚的規則和方向"},{"start":221.674,"end":237.612,"text":"讓好的技術能夠安心發展讓人民能夠信任使用那我相信我們現在一起來面對的話我們就更有機會的在兼顧剛剛講的不管是產業或者是我們國際的趨勢或者是我們人權的部分的一個就可以面對這樣子的問題"},{"start":239.093,"end":252.537,"text":"所以今天才是再次非常感謝大家一起前來然後我也希望未來我們可以打造出一個更能夠適應各個領域然後也能夠保障我們人權的一個AI基本法謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160173","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df95ea7498b26c2fe32888cb4ea3dfb6c09b98284df90a891aaca9bc7b5eabd6695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:08:47 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市占不均容易發生原料短缺的藥品名單如果沒有我叫你們去盤點 你們沒有盤點我叫你們盤點 講過幾遍 你清單搞不出來問幾遍啦 搞不出來所以食藥署跟衛福部一直被人家講管理食品也不行 藥品也不行"},{"start":213.838,"end":221.382,"text":"現在我更高興的是 保證 你第一次跟他說有恃無恐 跟他說我都喘得好好的 沒事情沒問題今天你說了這幾項 就答非所問了常常出問題 不是沒問題我...我...好啦 我現在從頭問起好了啦"},{"start":235.809,"end":242.895,"text":"現在我問你們說光是盤點美國製造的美國當地製造進來的藥品或醫材清單品項數量光是這個喔多少喔 我不懂怎麼說只要你們自己補你今天報告的跟食藥署提供的跟健保署提供的就倒不會罵啦"},{"start":260.916,"end":273.364,"text":"倒不會吧跟他一個數量的盤點你的數據提供出來都不會正確了那我跟他講缺藥的問題缺藥的問題在關稅這個政策以前早就存在了缺藥的問題講多久啦沒有美國關稅這個題目我們國內問題就很嚴重了這又不是現在你還說現在都沒問題"},{"start":290.578,"end":313.425,"text":"沒有美國關稅這一題 現在問題就很嚴重現在是美國關稅政策的之下會不會更嚴重所以醫改會在講說我們高度仰賴進口仰賴美國供應的 特別他指出癌症用藥疫苗聽得清楚 疫苗"},{"start":315.168,"end":336.16,"text":"高階醫材 小兒醫材 抗生素等美國供應商常連扮演著關鍵性的角色所以呢所以關稅上路這一些進口的產品成本一定會上升而最終成本一定轉嫁到民眾身上"},{"start":337.32,"end":345.528,"text":"甚至大家都知道這是剛性需求而你真的沒藥缺藥危及病人的用藥權益知識體大"},{"start":351.761,"end":377.935,"text":"所以這個我們缺藥是因為我們台灣的市場小 利潤低我們只有單一買家叫健保署仰賴特定供應商那一旦進口變貴或者是供應中斷根本找不到替代品那這對長照的病人特別是兒童長者身障 癌症"},{"start":379.198,"end":380.181,"text":"這個衝擊很大 你怎麼會有很多人在問你 你都說要煮成丸丸這樣"},{"start":385.285,"end":412.875,"text":"然後健保 健保問題很大捏健保的財務壓力很大捏 緊繃捏你不是說癌症給付的那個幾十億移出去 公務預算給了就沒問題捏他這個財務壓力這麼大壓縮給付醫生擔心的是點子下降 可是我們擔心的是病人就醫的權益啊 就醫的可敬性會受影響"},{"start":414.884,"end":428.109,"text":"所以台灣的健保制度為了財務平衡已經從區域總額已經改到大醫院你要個別醫院總額制了所以各項的醫療給付都受限於總額的管制一旦採購成本上升藥品成本上升"},{"start":440.029,"end":460.818,"text":"他一定會壓縮到醫生的點子要不然就是醫院面臨經營的壓力所以縮減開支 降低禁藥量降低禁藥量也是影響到用藥人那你沒有降低禁藥量全部都轉嫁費用給病患"},{"start":464.025,"end":478.689,"text":"你這樣什麼都去 掛貨費啊 去部分負擔啊 去大行農莊 去現在再來藥品 這樣是要再去 要再去所以健保才會這麼困難還要承擔 額外承擔關稅上升的額外成本我跟你說 你不是說 你現在都一句話說沒關係 我們學名藥 國藥國用 國產國藥國用你講得太簡單了"},{"start":490.592,"end":492.373,"text":"台灣要做藥學名藥原料都很靠的中國跟印度我們都要中國的比較多中國不會棄價嗎瞬間需求量大增怎麼會不會棄價"},{"start":507.419,"end":530.195,"text":"這個影響衝擊最大的很多人其實有商業保險的有自費能力的可是更多人是偏鄉的低收入戶人長期病患的弱勢族群他們首當其衝他們沒有商業保險醫療領域他是陽剛性需求如果今天癌症用藥缺了不可能叫病人等兩個月"},{"start":532.071,"end":548.06,"text":"是不是 柏定你也說說看 我說這個問題你都認為沒問題嗎報告委員 委員所提的真的都非常的深入跟專業個人表達最大的敬意那你剛剛的問題 其實我們長期在醫藥 醫藥藉 藥藉 醫材藉"},{"start":554.511,"end":564.379,"text":"生醫界都一直在努力希望把我們的一個醫療體系長期在努力在長期被詬病也長期處理不好長期沒有能力應變沒有一下子就滿分但是我們一定好中在好一直在改善我想這個部分經委員也要珍惜我們國內這些醫藥 醫材 特種"},{"start":578.712,"end":586.839,"text":"這麼多同仁在努力的應該給他們鼓勵那我們還做不到的我們繼續來努力他們在期望政府的政策引導他們在期待有政府會做事有政府能帶領有政府可以帶領他們看到到底他們要怎麼應變特別廠商 特別藥商有辦法應變嗎"},{"start":603.413,"end":606.635,"text":"我們的政策一直努力在維持守護人民的健康這是第一個你跟我說 當前仰賴美國進口的藥品和醫材我不是要跟你說幾張藥證啦"},{"start":615.1,"end":621.403,"text":"哪有這麼簡單的來 你看你報告你說我們現在看到美國的藥品有幾種藥精有幾個品項這麼簡單喔可替代我沒有要問你啊我要問你的是無替代性或者是可替代性低但是使用頻率高的有幾個品項有幾張藥證 有哪些用藥你現在回答我是不是食藥水可以 還是"},{"start":643.935,"end":660.512,"text":"食藥署回答我本人的辦公室這裡有寫啦他說除了罕見疾病14張許可證以外所有的適應症的疾病臨床上都有其他藥品可供替代啦所以他現在在歡樂的說他現在在歡樂的都杞人憂天啦"},{"start":662.694,"end":671.823,"text":"我立委現在在問的都杞人憂天 都沒有那個不可替代 除了罕見疾病這是食藥署給我回答的 現在健保署來回答 敢真的這樣食藥署回答林淑芬委員辦公室 她說你放心嘛 美國來的除了罕見疾病 每一種藥都有替代性 都沒有問題"},{"start":687.188,"end":709.445,"text":"健保署你回答看看跟委員報告就是我們從健保給付的品項裡頭屬於美國產地進來的大概是176項啦這176項裡面又是屬於這個食藥署的必要藥品清單的是72項那72項裡面最多的是抗腫瘤藥物我現在沒有講那個我現在問你說"},{"start":710.879,"end":719.205,"text":"無可替代性或替代性很低 但是使用頻率高我不是在問你必要藥品清單多渣食鹽水之論我就跟你說了一生原料短缺 市占不均你盤點給我看 你們也盤點不出來"},{"start":731.349,"end":746.502,"text":"現在我告訴你 美國做的 美國進口進來但是我們不用它 不過沒有替代性或是很少其他國家 其他藥廠在做但是使用頻率高的是哪些藥"},{"start":747.591,"end":774.466,"text":"你回答我跟委員報告這個不能用使用頻率來講使用頻率最多的這些什麼降血壓啦糖尿病的藥那個都有可替代最重要就是我剛剛提到的抗腫瘤的藥物因為很多都在專利期以內那這個呢使用頻率不是很高但是卻是必要藥品被我們列進來但是你食藥署講說除了罕見疾病都沒有了都可以有替代"},{"start":775.799,"end":793.364,"text":"報告委員我們特別提到我們盤出來裡面因為我們這邊對於藥證可以確立出來美國廠製造的藥證美國來的藥證是有214張那這214張裡面假如是在專利期裡面又是單獨的它的替代性就很低因為只有它有而已它有60種"},{"start":795.124,"end":812.916,"text":"你回答我的 你們今天在這裡答的跟書面給我資料的跟今天報告的數據都不一樣你們 我們當初跟你索取資料說自美國進口 製造成立為美國的藥品和醫產清單你告訴我們說 食藥署告訴我說藥品清單150張要證 今天講214張你的書面報告寫215張 健保署講176項"},{"start":821.582,"end":844.082,"text":"報告委員你可誤會了因為它的替代性如果在專利期內的這張有60張它的可替代性幾乎是等於0因為只有它有你在這裡面告訴我只有14張是不可替代其他都有你的公文書在這裡你說只有14張是不可取代其他都有替代14張是罕病"},{"start":845.567,"end":858.516,"text":"你的文字我講除了罕見疾病藥品共14張許可證以外其餘適應症疾病於臨床上有其他藥品可供使用"},{"start":859.52,"end":875.5,"text":"你的公文書都沒有講到癌症專利都還沒過期謝謝委員這邊可以有機會我們可以補充一下我的意思是說立委所知林農青菜公共好回答給立委在這裡在講又不一樣"},{"start":877.117,"end":896.203,"text":"報告委員吼 我們立委的所思真的都很認真昨天說點都江署長還打電話給我說他們前署幾乎都在加班他告訴立委說沒問題啦 沒大事啦 除了署長說趕快放 趕快全部回家 今天你說沒夠感情60張的郵 六十張的郵啊 太辛苦了啊建保署長是幾種 潘哲德應該是非常用心 主席我沒有叫他說 他一直說不知道在說什麼 我也聽不懂"},{"start":902.69,"end":920.426,"text":"這樣健保署 我現在說的是你們每天都退回去了保證你們不會忘記喔前幾天人家受訪時 你表示面對關稅的轉變進口藥品確實是有價格上漲的可能但國內缺藥平台已經非常有經驗健保有因應的制度你剛才在這裡自己說 沒有缺藥漲價之餘喔"},{"start":925.697,"end":940.637,"text":"你受訪跟在裡面你回答你自己就說不一樣啦現在是沒有缺藥但是漲價是有可能但是我們不要我們已經準備好了所以不用太擔心這樣子你剛才回答你以為王育民說沒有缺藥也沒有漲價之餘欸"},{"start":943.24,"end":958.648,"text":"那可能有可能 我的觀念裡面的確是有漲價的可能性我講了早幾次 今天早上我講了好幾次說我一直跟你說 我說了回來從美國進口的無可替代性或替代性使用替代性低 使用頻率高的藥品和醫材這個你們去盤點 到底 雖然有缺藥平台但是即使缺藥平台你們有遇過缺藥的經驗但一直以來缺藥的次數都沒有少過"},{"start":972.762,"end":994.712,"text":"你哪來的信心覺得有缺藥平台就不會發生缺藥危機有缺藥的經驗也不代表可以克服缺藥的危機對吧所以健保署署長來進口清單清單中進口藥品有沒有這個我剛剛講的無可替代 可替代性高 使用頻率高的藥品和藥材各有幾項"},{"start":996.596,"end":997.598,"text":"剛剛我提到從美國進來的在這個必要藥品裡面那個是72項啦"},{"start":1004.827,"end":1016.013,"text":"阿裡面又以抗腫瘤的藥物 不可替代的那這些都是專利 我剛剛提到抗腫瘤你說72項 阿實藥署說60項欸不不不 不是不是 這裡面有的可以替代裡面有的像那個什麼抗生素啦 你到底不可替代的幾項啦這是必要藥品裡面72項啦阿不是全部都不可替代有些還是可以替代 我在問你不可替代的啦"},{"start":1028.439,"end":1034.384,"text":"不可替代最主要就是那些腫瘤藥啊多少項你怎麼要盤點出來讓用藥人讓醫師未來有心理準備吧癌症病患未來可能會欠藥嗎價格大幅上漲嗎這個我們有調整調價的機制"},{"start":1052.32,"end":1072.45,"text":"食藥署署長你們提供的醫材清單不是藥品醫材初步評估各項醫材上有產品或其他療法可替代所以你們還要跟相關醫學會去確認醫材你們從今天的報告然後川普宣布這個4月4號宣布到現在10天了有沒有完成盤點你們要跟醫學會確認到底有沒有醫材是不可替代的盤點完了沒"},{"start":1079.534,"end":1094.166,"text":"跟委員這邊特別報告因為整個醫材使用裡面絕對的所謂必要性的醫材我們有盤了33支必要性的醫材不可避難所以必要性的醫材裡面我們可以看到其中有235張是來自於美國廠的 登記的"},{"start":1098.47,"end":1112.401,"text":"其中有三項必要性的醫材三項必要性的醫材裡面呢共用有八張在占比是大概是0.018%是屬於所以只有三項而已所以只有三項然後可能有八張那個藥證"},{"start":1115.888,"end":1126.372,"text":"所以只有三項我們現在是談他可能沒有辦法替代的絕對的沒辦法替代對第一線裡面謝謝委員這邊提醒你也應該告訴大家第一線的讓他能夠清楚你要讓醫生知道那你要趕快讓使用這醫產的人知道"},{"start":1134.054,"end":1154.145,"text":"那我現在還要講我最後 我其實還有很多但我現在因為時間的關係所以我就不要講那麼多不論是健保署或食藥署你們去盤點出來以後你們有沒有包含癌症的標靶藥物或是類似治療風濕免疫最常使用的生物製劑這些自費品項的藥點在不在你們盤點的清單裡面自費自費沒有盤沒有盤"},{"start":1162.725,"end":1179.372,"text":"我們盤的當然就是以健保給付為主你知道有多少人需要使用這一些東西嗎所以自費的人政府沒有盤點出來你們難道不應該納入嗎那你們真的面對這個關稅的衝擊漲價原料漲價的衝擊連國內學民藥國內藥廠都受到衝擊了更何況從美國的進口的然後自費的沒有盤"},{"start":1189.016,"end":1206.343,"text":"你們真的準備好了嗎現在如果是以標靶要務來看的話我們幾乎都已經納入將近都納入幾戶了啦只是那個幾戶標靶要務將近都納入幾戶幾戶的條件不同啦就是他不是全市一陣子不是啦所以你說的自費指的是我跟你講你知道你賣公共語言來欺騙我們符合資格的納入幾戶不符合資格的也自費再買再用有多少人啊"},{"start":1215.043,"end":1226.069,"text":"有多少人啊你們沒有盤點對這些用藥人應該沒有衝擊而且為什麼還需要自費去用這些生物資金包把藥物就是因為要救命啊最急的比人好人還要急的萬一開集青家大餐開這麼多集就是因為要救命然後這一波會不會受到衝擊政府不知道沒有盤點所以"},{"start":1243.959,"end":1263.444,"text":"我們一直在講盤點評估是要談什麼重點為什麼一直提醒你這個是因為這個剛性需求是要救命的救人救命的還有另外一個議題我還來不及講下一次再講你們要真的要認真準備已經講過那只是哪一期用什麼藥其實也都盤點在裡面你今天說的"},{"start":1273.087,"end":1298.679,"text":"要醫材跟他三行癌症的那個只有60項但願如此喔把那些都公布出來要不要提供給我們讓所有的人都知道用有癌人用的這醫材人他們要清楚知道自己未來面臨的風險和衝擊是什麼這個只是我今天質詢的第一部分抱歉我還有其他但時間來不及所以就下次再談好 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112年 這個兩個年度的數據的年度是不同的 112年的出口產值製藥業大概是18億"},{"start":56.977,"end":74.404,"text":"美國大概佔了四成所以因為現在受到美國關稅政策的影響除了醫療器材製藥業以外衛福部是不是有盤點其他衛福部主管受到衝擊的產業請單"},{"start":77.699,"end":104.239,"text":"有 我們一有這個政策川普宣布這個政策以後我們就衛福部所有司署全部盤點包括連我們的長照的府紀會不會受到怎麼樣的影響我們都站在人民的角度來看看會影響到城市那一個一個都有盤點以及都有請各司署提出一個因應的建議好"},{"start":105.08,"end":132.489,"text":"那是不是有跟經濟部等相關機關做聯繫協調相關產業的因應對策有沒有包委員那個因為我們自己的一個盤點以及我們跟我們的各自的產業的了解現在還在盤點中那如果需要跟其他部會做互動的話除了在"},{"start":134.202,"end":150.069,"text":"談判小組我們當成一個專業的幕僚提供一些專業的科學的以及我們的狀況給幕僚在那邊可能有彼此的互動以外我們等我們盤點到清楚會再跟經濟部"},{"start":152.357,"end":175.29,"text":"來攜手來看看有哪些需要他們來幫忙也就是說現在現在只到盤點的受到衝擊產業的盤點沒有新一步的我們這個盤點已經是先預先性了啦因為現在還沒有到幾乎還沒有到衛福部的所有的藥品醫材反而"},{"start":176.391,"end":181.756,"text":"美國進口給我們還比較多但是我們還是一定要做好準備"},{"start":184.082,"end":201.905,"text":"所以因應對策就是你們已經先備足了資料因為美國關稅政策是一個動態的過程所以相關的資料衛福部這邊會先備足需要跨部會因應的時候才不會措手不及"},{"start":212.087,"end":234.035,"text":"財政部曾經表示過就是我們的健康食品的進口稅率進口稅率是30%那他們要研議分年分階段逐步調降為了要降低我國"},{"start":236.755,"end":239.137,"text":"保健食品產業的衝擊經濟部的建議對國內製造團因為國內也有一些保健食品的製造業適度鬆綁國內"},{"start":251.869,"end":275.674,"text":"食品管理的相關法規在確保食安的前提下怎麼完善產業經濟環境衛福部這邊有沒有什麼看法我想這是一個一直在談論的議題這中間怎麼樣利弊得失當然會做更精密的一個分析那是不是我先"},{"start":277.774,"end":283.937,"text":"有關於國內的所謂的保健相關的食品的那整個的產值膠囊定狀的那經濟部盤出來跟我們這邊盤出來的大概是將近400多接近500億"},{"start":299.105,"end":322.06,"text":"那由於這樣子的在生產完之後我們銷往美國的量其實只有上百萬美金這樣的量其實相當相當的少可是相對的我們看到所謂的保健食品的這些產線跟我們的製藥的產線GMP的產線其實有時候是平行同一個產面生產"},{"start":323.001,"end":348.029,"text":"在關稅在食品那一端我們看到的是反而是希望有機會導引整個台灣的學民的用藥達到自給自足的方向更能夠去滿足那因為我們看到的是這次本身的食品這個保健相關食品的是因為藥物的衝擊下來食品的關稅衝擊下來相對它的利潤如果我們能夠往這邊倒"},{"start":349.409,"end":368.741,"text":"那食藥署這邊針對學民藥的發展其實積極的在處理跟我們的東南亞國協達成的GMP廠之間的監管上面的一致性所以我們的學民藥的藥廠它有這個機會產生的產出的學民藥直接在東南亞就可以被認可"},{"start":369.782,"end":389.575,"text":"所以目前已經有這樣子的已經完成了這樣的對接除了這以外呢我們在面對這藥物的攻擊的過程中那全世界都面臨這個藥物韌性的議題在歐盟EMA的向下呢也有所謂的歐盟的關鍵用藥的一些法案"},{"start":390.696,"end":409.79,"text":"這個法案因為也在食藥署的努力之下跟歐盟這邊一馬做了一些對接之後我們這邊的藥物也有機會能夠直接在那邊成為關鍵用藥裡面被認列因此我們發現這一個學名藥的產線以及它發展的方向"},{"start":410.43,"end":432.337,"text":"其實可以更為多元那因為我們的對接讓這樣子的一個產線國內的意願我們這個歐盟的部分呢其實有三家廠商其實非常積極的做鏈接我們希望把這個訊息也跟工協會能夠更討論那我自二月份上任以來其實跟藥品界食品界等等的工協會做了完整的溝通也把他們的"},{"start":433.617,"end":452.332,"text":"訴求我們都積極的也把相關的訊息給他們那現在我們持續在做的是我們國內的所謂藥物自給自足公藥的一個基礎的功能底下我們持續在增加我們的藥物韌性也謝謝委員的一些關心 以上說明好 謝謝署長很詳細的說明就是我們的藥物韌性"},{"start":456.195,"end":469.31,"text":"不只要安全而且必須要跟國際接軌我們必須要確保國內的廠商可以在國際有競爭力對不對部長我時間的關係所以我最後有一個"},{"start":476.918,"end":488.264,"text":"有一個朋友的問題就讓部長可能也沒有辦法回答答覆就是全國各縣市的早療兒童通報率都在提升"},{"start":501.465,"end":530.365,"text":"代表地方政府其實是很積極的在在尋找發展遲緩的兒童那這個早期早期發現早期治療然後比較避免錯過黃金治癒澎湖縣反而是是早療兒童通報率唯一退步的縣市那我知道我知道澎湖就是評估的量能不足這個第一第二就是澎湖"},{"start":531.84,"end":554.259,"text":"有住人的島嶼就有19個所以確實是一件很困難的事情那它的聯絡評估中心也只有一家醫院我這邊建議一下就是你們會後再跟我討論一下可是我還是必須要在這邊講就是說我們"},{"start":558.447,"end":583.386,"text":"有沒有辦法透過因為現在澎湖縣有打算澎湖縣政府有打算要成立第二家那這個是一件很困難的事情這個問題在澎湖其實存在很久有沒有可能用眼據醫療的方式來代替副署長有沒有"},{"start":585.16,"end":589.085,"text":"因為北一已經有去欺美做過一次"},{"start":592.235,"end":617.041,"text":"那個請副市長報告委員,北一那個是外展,他們就是北一他去外展,我們給他們有外展的費用那的確澎湖現在想要努力,我們昨天也跟澎湖衛生局的局長討論就是說看是部棚或軍棚可以再幫忙成立第二個聯合評估中心那未來的確會在乘坐費還有所謂的評估報告費,看是不是偏鄉離島比較特殊的需求會再做一個討論我覺得這個費用"},{"start":621.522,"end":641.858,"text":"不多給澎湖一些是真的不行因為它人口實在散佈在海中太多了太多點所以費用的部分我們來想辦法反而比較小事我覺得是人力"},{"start":642.619,"end":644.322,"text":"這問題比較是問題好不好 這個麻煩你們待會去做個詳細的研究好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"160200","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160200","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfcb8caf2250374e65772d893bf7b7126ed146475ae9ed72cde833ab9d99bf9e445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:36:37 - 10:45:22","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"教育及文化委員會、交通委員會舉行制定「人工智慧基本法草案」聯席公聽會（事由：教育及文化委員會、交通委員會舉行制定「人工智慧基本法草案」聯席公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-16","start_time":"2025-04-16T10:36:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-16T10:45:22+08:00","duration":525,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.72221875,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.68971875000003,"end":252.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.53159375,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.95221875000004,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.21659375,"end":517.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.91596875,"end":525.9740937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.741,"end":30.404,"text":"感謝我們今天的主席葛如君委員那我覺得今天來到這裡很興奮也很感動對 因為我覺得今天是這個AI基本法可能立法的一小步我覺得卻是我們台灣AI發展的一大步那我也蠻認同剛剛我們祕書長所說的成為最會用AI的國家那其實隨著AI生成的內容其實我覺得"},{"start":31.545,"end":50.825,"text":"第一個面對AI,我想不管是不是所有的人類可能面對AI都算是一個幼稚園的部分還是一個幼稚園的小朋友還在面對說到底應該怎麼去應用規範等等的那我想要從今天的基本法裡面找一小段出來表達我的其中的一個建議"},{"start":51.846,"end":76.245,"text":"第一個我覺得隨著AI的這個生成內容其實像包含所謂的這個DeepFake身為影像AI聊天機器人等等其實日益逼真那就會導致一件事情人類跟機器生成行為之間的界線是越來越模糊尤其是新一代的這個AI機器人可能以前所謂有的真實感可以模仿人類的語言外貌跟互動"},{"start":78.607,"end":93.663,"text":"所以我覺得這不僅是影響日常的數位互動也可能威脅我們民主的進程公眾的信任或者是國家安全或社會凝聚力其實可以看到現在有很多所謂的AI生成的內容不斷地在散播或者在網路上面到處亂發酵這樣"},{"start":97.011,"end":123.208,"text":"那有些時候我們自己也可以看到很多所謂的不管是這個社群媒體你也可以看到那個帳號進去他到底是不是真的人呢那現在可能還相對很好分類一進去看到沒什麼朋友然後也沒什麼這個貼文他亂發一堆訊息你大概可以分得出來可是其實隨著這個技術AI的發展他可能越來越沒有辦法分辨越來越扭曲所以我認為如果沒有"},{"start":124.088,"end":147.032,"text":"一個可靠的機制可以驗證這個數位空間中的人類身份我覺得在我們的民主社會或是台灣可能面臨在AI的驅動下有廣泛的操控、詐騙或是冒名頂替跟公共論述的扭曲所以我自己是在這個AI基本法裡面我覺得大家都講到捷運塔面向很管"},{"start":147.332,"end":167.873,"text":"很廣那我想要從中間挑一個東西我覺得政府應該可以去推動的就是我覺得應該要設立明確的人類驗證的機制我覺得應該要推動設立人類的驗證機制那這種技術又必須要安全然後它可以尊重隱私那可以有包容性而且易於民眾的使用"},{"start":168.453,"end":173.6,"text":"所以我覺得概念上就是要人機區分那透過人類驗證我們可以區分這個人類跟人工智慧系統那也確保我們數位空間的可信度那防範我們的錯假資訊跟維護我們的民主跟社會穩定"},{"start":184.855,"end":213.771,"text":"那在國際上比如說歐盟的AI法案美國相關政策也都已經開始討論所謂的Proof of Human就是人類驗證的技術那就在強調在數位互動公共討論政府服務數位投票或是內容驗證的場域應該有區分人類使用者跟AI系統的一個關鍵的一個方向所以才可以維護我們民主跟社會信任那我覺得所以"},{"start":214.491,"end":238.918,"text":"具體來說,國家應該推動能夠區分人類使用者跟人工智慧系統的技術發展應用,確保技術數位互動的可信度。這些技術應該兼具安全性、隱私保護性、包容性跟易於存取,以保護人類的尊嚴,防止操控並維持數位公共生活的完整性。"},{"start":239.838,"end":250.347,"text":"所以我未來也會提出這個我的立法版本會把這個部分納入那我就是希望說這個東西我認為應該是一個比較有別於目前大家討論的一個區塊"},{"start":252.608,"end":275.416,"text":"那我覺得剛剛有講到這個身邊的例子比如說包含我自己我們在從事民意代表的過程中我們也希望我們的服務可以更AI化就是說或許我們的各個應用可以讓我們選民24小時都可以接觸到所以我其實曾經也就想過那是不是用選民服務系統跟這個所謂AI做一個結合可是就像我剛剛說的它就會面臨到很模糊的問題所以這就是我覺得一個實際生活中可以去思考的"},{"start":282.498,"end":306.033,"text":"那這也會跟我們所謂最會用AI的這個方向我覺得也是一個可以相互呼應那我覺得除了人類驗證的原則之外呢那當然包含著在AI治理上還有四大的推動重點第一個第一個我覺得是創新合作跟人才培育那政府應該要積極這個投資AI的基礎建設那提供研發補助推動人才培育"},{"start":306.693,"end":334.786,"text":"跟這個素養的教育然後建立創新實驗的環境促進我們公司協力跟國際合作那所以比如說多元的治理架構跨部會的協作也很重要那例如像歐盟可能有設立歐洲的這個AI辦公室國家監管機構那南韓加拿大可能也都有國家的AI委員會AI政策中心或是AI安全研究院統籌政策跟技術指導這些合規監督這是第一點那第二個"},{"start":335.586,"end":350.951,"text":"重點就是風險管理跟應用負責那就是建立風險分級機制不過因為我想剛剛也有很多先進前輩也有提到相關的所以我這個部分我就點到這裡那當然第三點就是權益保障跟資料的利用"},{"start":352.232,"end":357.476,"text":"剛剛前面我有提到所謂強化各自隱私的保障推動資料的開放共享特別鼓勵我們繁體中文語料的訓練維護我們文化的主權避免AI模型過度依賴所謂境外的資料"},{"start":370.467,"end":374.711,"text":"那第四個就是法規的調適跟業務檢視因為像在這個加拿大的部分它其實也有強調法規的彈性因為正如我剛剛所說我們現在面對AI大家可能都還是幼稚園的一個狀態所以其實我覺得保持彈性是很重要的"},{"start":388.405,"end":410.283,"text":"那根據AI技術發展持續調整這個安全的義務那像日本的AI法案可能以原則性的規範為主那它目的也是保持這個政策的調整空間那政府當然應該要持續的檢討主管法規和確保法治跟技術發展同步那建立AI應用負責機制防止這個違法濫用剛剛有提到這個AI這個工具非常強大"},{"start":414.266,"end":433.5,"text":"它可以是很好的工具也可以是很好的武器在破壞我們的人類社會那尤其具體的案例譬如說台灣也曾經發生網紅將知名人士合成不雅的影片的案子更活生生的違法使用那當然包含詐騙也是大量的所以這部分非常重要那我最後結語一下"},{"start":434.341,"end":458.406,"text":"我覺得人工智慧基本法也是台灣邁向AI治理創新發展的重要里程碑所以我剛剛提的部分是我想針對這個原則上希望可以納入人類驗證的原則可以使我們台灣在AI的時代更能夠維護我們的民主信任跟社會安全而且確保人類的獨立性跟人類的尊嚴"},{"start":459.306,"end":484.477,"text":"那除此之外前面也有提到其他的國家所以仍有許多部分我們可以持續滾動調整那制度上也應該我們國家應該可以更加的參考所以也必須承認台灣在AI研究發展措施跟治理的制度的這個建制的領域都還有不足那人工智慧基本法其中的基本兩個字我覺得也能呼應我們的確還走在這個地基建設的階段"},{"start":489.119,"end":517.655,"text":"那程序上我是覺得我們當然是先求有再求好但是我們心態上也要知道這個階段如果沒有把這個基礎打好會對未來的發展跟治理會有巨大的影響所以今天的公聽會很感謝這個召委的安排那我們也期待立法院能夠廣納各界的意見制定兼顧發展風險權益跟國際接軌的現代化法制讓台灣的AI時代可以穩健前行好 謝謝大家"},{"start":520.522,"end":525.196,"text":"謝謝廖偉祥委員的發言接下來請劉書斌委員發言林益榮經理"}]}},{"id":"160218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df0258dc885b5dea18772d893bf7b7126eebda33721556222aa776b5aef8effbec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:07:26 - 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其實AI要去仿照 模仿去做這樣的一個風格寫作一點也不難甚至給它關鍵字它可以一次生出八個 十個不同的版本跟劇本"},{"start":315.111,"end":339.629,"text":"如果說這樣子的一個方向越來越多越來越廣的時候我們到底在網路世界或是到底在真實看到文章的時候哪一個是真人寫哪一個是AI寫這一點就是我們要認為防範於未來未來的可能的新型犯罪我們應該界定並且加重相關的刑責以及最後是保障我們現行勞工的權益"},{"start":341.394,"end":367.389,"text":"很多時候大家會害怕AI的推出反而會讓過去勞力密集的地方而造成這個員工權益就是大幅的可能工作機會降低等等譬如說我剛剛講的這樣的一個例子一千多頁的報告過去需要三個人可能專業的人士大幅的去整理現在只需要十分鐘他可以馬上幫你整理到位"},{"start":368.129,"end":394.673,"text":"那未來人員的一個配置以及職癌的轉型該怎麼做我一直強調我也一直認為是在人工智慧的部分我其實有一個充滿的想像就是未來是會下指令的人有絕對的優勢所以過去幾十年來我們的教育體制我們的社會環境都是培養如何去"},{"start":396.522,"end":417.252,"text":"做好指令的人能夠從如何做好指令的人這樣的一個教育方向角度來變成是如何去培養一個會下指令的人利用科技 利用環境 利用我們的電腦設備等等讓AI來去協助做這些指令的執行我想更加重要"},{"start":418.032,"end":435.547,"text":"所以最後我們還是再次強調今天的公聽會讓我能夠來發表我自己的一個看法以及跟各位先進來做一個互動我也會在辦公室裡面聆聽我們所有先進所發言以及做這樣子的人工智慧基本法的一個方向的期待"},{"start":436.047,"end":460.868,"text":"我們更希望是看到未來行政院出來的版本的時候我們會在教育文化委員會以及相關的委員會聯席的時候一條一條的來審查能夠達成我們大家所期待的幫助我們產業的發展提高我們國家的競爭力並且保護個人的個資以及照顧有可能的勞工權益這一些面向都是我們一起持續關注"},{"start":461.869,"end":467.155,"text":"祝福我們今天開會順利成功也感謝召委再次感謝各位先進祝福大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df1903b279b03eeb28772d893bf7b7126ed146475ae9ed72cd74d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:45:28 - 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謝謝主席那我們今天討論到人工智慧基本法或者是說人工智慧相關法定的這個制定的時候呢首先要確定的是他在的這個主管機關這部分我們看到行政院呢他已經提出來的是由國發會然後後來呢在到今年的時候就轉到所謂的朔發附這邊"},{"start":27.409,"end":32.59,"text":"那這邊最重要的是剛才其他的很多的學者專家們也提到的是說這個是一個跨部會的這樣子的一個影響性的一個新的發展絕對不限於在其他的部份不限於在所謂在前面這兩個部會那因此呢我們在本身我們本黨也有提出來的一個人工智慧與發展的這個管理條例特別還重要的是這個管理的部分那我們的一個地方除了原來我們從數位發展部這邊部會"},{"start":57.196,"end":61.077,"text":"我們特別想到說如果國科會的主委他目前是身兼在科技發展這部分的跨領域的政委在那邊可能也是一個蠻好的選項可以做參考另外我們再看到的是在人工智慧的發展的這部分它其實有幾個發展方向是必須要去兼顧到"},{"start":80.925,"end":94.772,"text":"兼顧到他的一個問責性還有這個解析性他當然還有實用性甚至包括隱私人權等等的公平的永續的發展這樣的一個尊重但是我覺得更重要的是在發展方向當中可能需要注意到兩個第一個就是發展在研發部分就是必須要再給他一個開放性那尤其是他的資料來源是屬於在open 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這個是絕對不行的所以它有它的倫理性"},{"start":195.034,"end":197.475,"text":"那我們本黨特別會針對是在有關於在高風險這部分的他設置了這個相關的情況那剛才我跟你講說根據所謂利害關係人當中也是在服務的使用跟使用前的苛與苛責那有這樣的苛責的情況之下呢到時候"},{"start":211.383,"end":219.689,"text":"是不是要有罰則或什麼等等的這個是另外再說但是我覺得如果你要做到管理的情況那就是不少把這些高風險的等級列出來之後呢等等的設於相關的負責單位當中給予適當的適當的這樣的一個讓他苛責的情況那如果有這樣的情況之下至少要管理一個方向上面是一個方向是一個方向有利於去導引那另外一個部分我們也知道說資料的來源資料的來源最終是收集到個人的各種的不同的資料"},{"start":241.543,"end":255.557,"text":"那這邊部分呢可是必須要做個去識別化尤其是AI或者大數據資料的應用這邊呢很重要的是它就是把整體的資料拉出來但是它變成說要避免到所謂的像個人的然後變成說"},{"start":256.918,"end":279.233,"text":"變成說到時候去辨別出來的時候 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這個"},{"start":160.903,"end":185.842,"text":"你們當初的利益是什麼是為了要增加我們醫護人員的薪水嗎對對對原本也是希望說因為今年的總額的整個成長預算都是過去增加很多這個離職潮有被解決了嗎目前我們當然想說希望調高薪資是留人的一個很重要的工具所以我們就提出這個想法一推出這個很多人都反彈那接下來你們要怎麼辦"},{"start":186.947,"end":211.415,"text":"當然這個是我們的草案啦那個還是會持續的跟大家來溝通那部長也特別昨天已經提到短期來說要解決護理人員離職草是不是應該有邊公務預算讓他們的薪資馬上就增加呢有有有另外也有邊公務預算是嗎有有有 有六十幾億大概什麼時候會到位已經第一波的話理論上應該在四月底五月初就會下去了"},{"start":211.803,"end":238.192,"text":"好那我就今天的一個新聞看到個別醫院的總和制度來就教一下這600塊的那個診察費的一個依據或者是說有沒有除了600元以外有沒有其他的不一樣比如說你說就診察費增加到600塊第二個就是說我們的慢性脂肪腺從上個月變到半年第三個是部分負擔可能要調整或是說轉診制度的這個我想知道這600元只是單純的600元嗎有沒有別的一個"},{"start":239.412,"end":261.063,"text":"因為跟委員報告這個只是還在討論當中主要是針對我們目前在醫院的醫師的診察費不論這個難易啦時間花多少都是一樣所以就是說這次診所也要增加然後地區醫院也要增加而不是只有在醫院是600元然後是不是應該是pay for performance而不是pay for service這個部分"},{"start":261.383,"end":288.129,"text":"那在這個診所的部分因為這兩個是不同的總額所以我們分開去討論診所的部分因為過去有所謂的合理門診量它的概念其實也是這個類似如果說超過50人以後是不是你這個600元也是要遞減是有這樣的計畫嗎因為在醫院裡面我們希望朝向醫學中心最後以轉診為主所以不會去用合理門診量這個今年就要實施嗎應該是下半年的時候"},{"start":289.369,"end":316.988,"text":"OK 那也就是悶性齒發性會變到半年這個都要繼續討論 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有最後一個問題就是請問部長就是關於偏鄉地區就是我上次一直在提的我們花林縣南區就是玉里鎮附近周圍還有我們海縣就是海岸山脈那邊如果發生心導管需要心導管手術或是洗腎這個部分的盤點有沒有這個量能"},{"start":431.479,"end":446.764,"text":"或者說不管有沒有這個量的應該提供這方面的一個醫療的一個準備那我想知道到底有沒有在規劃或者是有沒有一個時間表在那個地方的民眾在生活上有一個安全感好謝謝委員"},{"start":448.911,"end":474.337,"text":"前一陣子有質詢我們義務會其實有去做了解我們在這塊裡面會評估那當然育理醫院是一個精神專科醫院所以他在設置標準裡面是沒有這個所謂的精神科以外的但我們可以思考就是在這個部分裡面其實他們有些慢性疾病比如說洗腎這塊其實我們可以連結旁邊的農民育理醫院這個部分其實是對我是希望能夠找點因為它畢竟是我們退伏會的醫院"},{"start":475.037,"end":494.115,"text":"然后如果说有不利院这边来协助看看能不能把我们的心脏科的专科医师能够留在那里第二个就是我上次去牡丹巷的时候遇到一个事情就是说他是在假日发生了一个车祸他的住宅住家会发生的地点刚好在卫生所前面然后结果发生车祸了"},{"start":494.735,"end":513.643,"text":"結果一般的民眾會看到救護車明明就在他的眼前可是當下發生的時候是假日所以說衛生所的回應說沒有時機所以救護車不能開那里當要有119來送119在哪裡呢他的距離衛生所的距離要開車28分鐘才會到也就是說這個民眾他發"},{"start":519.665,"end":540.089,"text":"發生的當下當然可能是比較嚴重然後家屬在眼睜睜看著救護車然後抱著他的母親就看著他母親慢慢斷氣也就是說在救護車到了以後其實他母親已經呈現O卡的現象了那我現在要提出這個問題就是說明明救護車就在他眼前"},{"start":540.569,"end":569.03,"text":"然后卫生所就在他前面可是却没有办法在当下有人去可以开这部车当然那是因为有他的所谓的法律的责任所以我的意思就是希望在偏远地区的救护车如果你有救护车的编制应该就要有人力来提供比如说假日的值班或者说12小时或20小时一个轮子才不造成当地明明有救护车却没有救护车可以用的一个状况"},{"start":569.69,"end":575.781,"text":"可以嗎 部長我想我們偏鄉的醫療 真的是我們"},{"start":577.116,"end":601.848,"text":"非常希望去把它做好也是我們在這些年來從幾十年來我當住院醫師的時候就常常在偏鄉服務那種完全了解到偏鄉的一個困難那當然我們也不斷的有醫療網的計畫還有偏鄉醫療的提升計畫這個部分如果有剛剛您講的這些切動的話我們一定去了解來盡量來改善"},{"start":602.128,"end":605.415,"text":"那就麻煩部長再去多關心一下偏遠地區好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfcb4709e69c8d6f18d598beef862d51bbebda33721556222a03e26e77da1de7db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:13:45 - 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謝謝委員的隨行我想我們政府以及衛福部就是為人民健康一直日夜在努力的所以我想我們絕對堅持以人民健康維護的為最大的指導原則那至於在各種各種政策的擬定當然最重要就是要有科學"},{"start":113.875,"end":133.116,"text":"科學分析的一個根據所以部長你等於是宣示說不會犧牲國人的安全在這次的貿易談判上我們會一切會按照風險的評估跟科學的一個根據來做專業的建議好 謝謝那所以部長您是宣示就是不會犧牲國人安全對不對我們絕對站在人民的健康維護"},{"start":134.277,"end":159.899,"text":"為最高的原則好謝謝來那部長下一個題目我想要請問一下請教一下我們健康台灣推動委員會在去年的8月22號的時候召開了第一次委員會那部長您當天報告事項的簡報其中有提到優化醫療環境然後確保全民健康十大策略中的第六點也就是檢討健保藥品政策扶植國內的製藥產業"},{"start":161.792,"end":189.233,"text":"那另外在報告事項的二是健保永續改革及優化那會議記錄中也提到賴總統自己也提到政府會繼續努力讓台灣的藥品工藝無論是品質或者是供應鏈的韌性都能夠不斷的提升那請教部長這些簡報資料跟賴總統的講話是否還算數還是會如同這次賴總統在福倫社的年會上面說的事後故意拿掉這吃苦當吃補這句話"},{"start":190.748,"end":210.217,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心健康台灣的一個推動也敬佩委員這麼了解到我們提到的一些重點那我跟委員報告說你剛剛所提的幾點我們都說到做到包括健保的改革在大家委員們的努力以及行政院的幫忙好 謝謝部長說到做到"},{"start":212.258,"end":229.349,"text":"然後有關藥品這個部分我想我們那個健保署馬上擬定兩大政策那部長沒問題我就繼續講這一部分在穩定這個藥品供應鏈的事情上反正你說說要做到但是本席其實在去年3月的時候就已經曾經在這裡做出組決議"},{"start":230.45,"end":249.99,"text":"那當時是主要是為了避免缺藥後來衛福部跟健保署也接受就是修正後納入藥價改革的辦法之中那健保署供你會議其實在8月中就通過了那本席在10月9號質詢的時候也問說何時會預告那結果其實後來是拖到了11月19日衛福部才預告"},{"start":252.252,"end":266.118,"text":"然後再來就是1月22日的預告截止後那到現在又過了三個月那這個要價改革也是這個健保改革中的一個重點之一那當然不僅是健保財務上的考量還有避免缺藥的風險"},{"start":267.378,"end":288.2,"text":"那更重要的是在國際跟這些區域情勢不穩定的情況之下其實各國都是注意這個所謂的藥品的穩定供應都是在強化這個部分那剛剛也講到你們在健康台灣政策裡面有提到要鼓勵在台製造國藥國用才能夠避免缺藥危機變成國安風險可是"},{"start":289.601,"end":305.527,"text":"這個部分就是拖了很久沒有公告我想要請問到底是什麼原因是因為台灣價值不夠嗎還是賴總統所謂的這個宣誓都是口號呢為什麼這件事情是一拖二拖三拖那在今天的報告當中你們是有提到預計本月會公告"},{"start":306.087,"end":333.659,"text":"那4月27日即將要舉辦這個健康台灣的全國論壇請問能否在4月27號之前這個舉辦健康台灣論壇之前公告那我想要提醒一下部長因為這個藥物的給付項目跟支付標準的供你會議作業辦法的第4跟第6條你們今年2月13號其實就預告了那7天後的2月20號就預告終止然後再過15天就正式公告"},{"start":334.139,"end":349.724,"text":"所以整個法規其實從預告到公告是不到一個月就公告實行所以如果這些要價改革如果再沒有在4月27號前公告不就是證明你們是有沒有雙標或者是沒有這個好好的執行我想要請問一下"},{"start":350.404,"end":374.93,"text":"好 謝謝委員的隨行那我必須要說明一下預告兩個月以後叫1月20左右嘛那其實有不少的意見那這兩個政策是對於未來國內製藥還有我們的產業鏈非常重要這兩個政策也是委員你一直在關心的所以要面面俱到 希望不要說走下去還要改所以我想感謝健保署的同仁可以說是針對這個"},{"start":376.95,"end":397.999,"text":"這兩個政策非常的用心在研擬那應該部長是4月27號以前確定可以公告嗎有說到做到嗎我想很快的健保署就會送到部裡面我們會用最快的速度應該在4月27號以前我們盡量完成自慢在4月底以前會公告"},{"start":398.584,"end":414.591,"text":"那部長要拜託你說到做到希望在427以前公告不然你健康台灣的時候要講些什麼對不對這個部分就會漏掉我們要講的非常的多當然很多當然很多我相信我相信但是我說這是其中一塊因為這個拖了很久這個的確一定要做我先說明一下真的也沒有拖很久"},{"start":416.192,"end":435.868,"text":"您剛剛把整個時序弄出來其實那個都是要做很詳盡的討論好沒關係我再問下一題一二十號到現在才一段時間部長希望就是四二七四月底前說到做到我想署署長也沒問題我知道大家都辛苦了但是希望可以說到做到"},{"start":436.969,"end":454.647,"text":"部長這個醫藥品跟醫材的供應內穩定性很重要嘛我相信你們都就是頻頻點頭那萬一戰爭發生時藥品的自給自足這件事情就會變得極度的重要所以我想要請問一下目前衛福部為了供應穩定性有沒有哪些更具體的作為"},{"start":455.268,"end":474.573,"text":"到目前為止有編列什麼預算或經費維持這個供應鏈穩定性嗎因為我想問一下我想跟部長說一下像美國呢已經啟動對於藥品跟其原料進口的國安調查對不對那將涵蓋所謂的學名藥非學名藥成品跟生產這些藥物所需要的原料跟關鍵成分那"},{"start":476.494,"end":501.79,"text":"部長他們在啟動調查當然是為了現在的關稅嘛要加徵關稅的部分但是在我們國家的部分我們可能要為了避免戰爭風險也應該是不是應該也要進行所謂的這個藥品的國安調查那就是除了為這個穩定供應鏈的這個量之外這個值也要有韌性啊所以否則就會發生劣幣趨良幣的情況所以根據"},{"start":502.751,"end":526.729,"text":"我想要講的事情就是第一個是不是應該也要啟動國安調查這是第一個第二個就是說我們在2022年這個進出口的統計裡面2022到2023原料要進口國的前五名分別是中國大陸、日本、印度、義大利跟南韓那中國大陸的部分都有30億以上那第二名是日本但是是第二名的日本的三倍以上"},{"start":527.495,"end":551.918,"text":"所以政策上是不是也應該要更具體的去鼓勵藥廠尋求原料藥的第二國的供應來源是不是應該要這樣子所以大家都知道中國大陸跟印度是原料藥的主要輸出國所以但是當我們如果要減少來自中國大陸的原料藥的時候就必須要先盤點那也應該要更具體的鼓勵這個藥商尋找第二原料藥的供應來源"},{"start":552.799,"end":576.398,"text":"那我想要問的就是說第一個剛剛有說要國安調查第二個就是除了口頭的鼓勵之外有沒有更實質的作為啊譬如說在藥價上面的藥價政策上面的給予優惠那讓廠商願意尋求這個原料藥的第二個來源那因為其實今天你們的報告裡面啊是提到的是說建立原料藥的加速審查機制啊"},{"start":576.798,"end":597.475,"text":"那我覺得這的確是一個很好的方式沒有錯但是我覺得這個誘因究竟夠不夠所以想要請教部長這部分是不是這兩個題目好謝謝委員那因為這個有關於剛好上有食藥署然後下有健保署由他們檢要的來把你串聯跟委員報告一下好了"},{"start":600.069,"end":619.915,"text":"報告委員 針對現在提到的原料藥的部分以及我們藥物的韌性這一段那我們分成平時跟潛在的暫時的會有不一樣的想法我們平時我們在這一次在去年年底盤到二月份已經確立下來有584種的所謂的必要藥品"},{"start":620.535,"end":641.472,"text":"那我們針對必要藥品也在這一次美國關稅的議題之下我們特別去盤了一下關稅議題上可能會看到的這些必要的藥品如果針對是美國這個單一個美國來提的話那大概製造在美國大概有214張因為我們盤的是在所謂的許可證的部分"},{"start":642.573,"end":657.645,"text":"我們剛才也特別提到有60張裡面是屬於真的是完全美國製造的所以我們會讓大家知道我們初步了解這個必要的藥品第一個584種加下來接下來是美國這一次的衝擊底下"},{"start":658.365,"end":680.703,"text":"那第二個部分是針對所謂可潛在的有的暫時的一個必要的藥品那藥物的韌性的部分我們希望在那個瞬間我們希望未來有更高強度的機會可能也需要各位委員們的一個協助因為要有很強烈法源的依據如果在暫時有一個徵召的這樣子的一個機會才能夠去讓我們台灣的"},{"start":683.225,"end":707.098,"text":"製藥的部分我們有25種是必要的藥品的但是這個部分我主要還是針對說現在我們的原料藥的進口這個大陸的部分大多數來自於中國大陸的部分那是不是應該要更有具體的這個政策去誘因去鼓勵這些去開拓第二來源國我剛剛想要問的是這個那您剛剛講的我都我可以理解喔你說有這個關稅的應對可是其實我的問題是這個"},{"start":710.3,"end":732.597,"text":"就接下來的原料料這個特定的部分我們知道中國印度其實一直是以價格取勝那國內的原料料它本身的產值我們知道整個的原料要是大概1.75億的出口的一個狀況那我們可以進口的部分是2.3億那它本身產值其實是小的"},{"start":733.24,"end":748.193,"text":"那在原料藥它的特殊性是它本身高污染所以我們希望能夠我們也希望會積極的鼓勵能夠在不同的方式對我就是講這個就是要積極的鼓勵是不是不要只是口頭鼓勵你又沒有什麼實質的比如說藥價偵測的作為"},{"start":749.634,"end":776.832,"text":"因為我要提醒因為時間關係我要提醒署長因為藥品可能不同於一般的商品所以不太可能說時間到了或是戰爭到了我再去做這個準備我們現在在提早就是因應提早在講的這個政策就是希望可以提早因應讓他們提早有準備第二個原料果所以我是希望這個部分應該是要透過政策有更具體的誘因這樣才可以確保提早準備而且確保國人的用藥的健康的權益"},{"start":777.372,"end":794.577,"text":"是跟委員報告在這一次我們委員關心的這個藥品的支付標準修正裡面我們也加了這個如果使用台灣的原料藥的話產地是台灣的原料藥我們藥價加4%那另外的譬如說其他部分的來源國有沒有需要再鼓勵"},{"start":795.992,"end":809.798,"text":"我們是以在地為優先在地優先嘛那好那在地優先之外如果說在地短時間做不到的情況之下你可能也要去盤點他有沒有其他誘因要從其他國家進來我覺得這部分也也可以請這個署長去研擬一下"},{"start":812.739,"end":835.837,"text":"那另外最後一題就是國健署的癌症篩檢是降低癌症死亡率我覺得很重要的關鍵但是並非每一種癌症都適合篩檢或是有篩檢技術那現在公費的篩檢有五種那分別是口腔癌對不對乳癌大腸癌子宮頸癌跟肺癌那當然胃癌是在這個所謂的公費篩檢算是在事半計畫"},{"start":837.124,"end":850.403,"text":"研究也有顯示50%到90%的胃癌可以歸因於幽門螺旋桿菌的感染國內20歲以上幽門螺旋桿菌感染的標準化盛行率大概是32%主要當然包含"},{"start":852.3,"end":873.101,"text":"經口傳染、飲水食物等等所以其實基本上我們要根絕胃癌就是基本上要根絕幽門螺旋桿菌所以我想要請教部長就是說從這個癌症報告中可以看出107年開始每一年的胃癌都是癌症死亡率的第八名我想要問的是說明年是不是可以我也想要在這裡爭取"},{"start":873.962,"end":897.782,"text":"是不是將胃癌篩檢正式列為第六種公費篩檢現在事辦計畫大概是45到75歲族群去年是9個縣市共有9個縣市今年是17個縣市參與所以明年全台20個縣市應該都可以納入我想要請教部長因為行政部門現在在編列明年的預算公費胃癌的篩檢的費用是否已經編列進去"},{"start":900.549,"end":901.751,"text":"有編列進去好謝謝部長"},{"start":908.739,"end":937.021,"text":"剛剛委員跟委員報告的確今年是已經有17個縣市那其實我們各縣市大概都跟他們報告說會在明年全國開辦啦對所以就是一樣是45歲到74歲的國人通通可以好謝謝所以跟委員報告其實我們也鼓勵國人自費篩檢所以如果我們是自費篩檢出來吹氣也好或者是糞便的抗原的檢查出來那麼有陽性的那健保也給付這個除菌的這個藥費"},{"start":938.872,"end":958.556,"text":"好 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谢谢赵伟先请郭部长"},{"start":14.014,"end":35.545,"text":"國務長 先請教一下因為大家都關心這個美國的財長點名說優先的五國 韓國 英國 澳洲 印尼跟日本那我們印度跟日本那我們現在因為當時我們的數據上面其實我們應該之前有先談過了部長現在你所了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告委員我們的狀況就是說4月11號我們已經跟美國做這個諮商了"},{"start":41.38,"end":56.438,"text":"我们跟智商呢那主要的内容我们在这里跟委员报告主要的内容就谈对等关税第二个非关税贸易障碍以及出国管制等这一些多项的经贸的议题"},{"start":56.918,"end":85.817,"text":"已經有談了嘛其實也是在賴總統五項那個原則來跟他們談的嘛整個回應整個川普總統美國政府的回應嘛所以這五點的部分其實都跟美方已經在做談判了嘛所以有初步來談了那但是他為什麼財長這樣講他這個點名優先我是先是優先來跟這五個國家先簽訂他們朝這個目標來前進嗎還是說為什麼沒有含在台灣裡面我們已經談了所以其實有談了"},{"start":86.578,"end":111.178,"text":"我們跟以色列談嘛在我們之前他也先跟越南談嘛所以這個是有進度的啦對所以就像賴總統前幾天講的嘛跟以色列跟台灣我們是第一批在談的嘛我們一直在談那但是財長點名這五國也是他們現在優先要處理的目標啦報告委員是這樣子啦談判像我個人的經驗來講談國際談判"},{"start":114.264,"end":119.287,"text":"我在工作快50年我國際談判也談蠻多的這是我們第一個會去確認這個談判的命題是什麼"},{"start":125.799,"end":153.557,"text":"要談什麼東西先確認這樣子不然的話講一堆大家拋來拋去的哪會去決定談的內容跟程序這個是第一個先界定的部分第二個才會進入實質的討論大家把資料拿出來實質的討論彼此的利益然後再去談出來第三個在做整體的conclusion我想這是談判的一個過程"},{"start":154.297,"end":169.671,"text":"但是我們這一次談的我相信不脫離這種國際談判的一個格式因為美國要跟這麼多的國家談判其實也不容易啦對他來講他一定要確定說你要跟我談什麼 我跟你談什麼"},{"start":171.192,"end":198.405,"text":"這個所以是過程所以為什麼他一個禮拜只能談五個國家所以70個大家都要跟他談嘛所以說現在有的人會去解讀說不包括台灣事實上台灣已經在談了啦台灣已經談過了OK好我們只是再次讓外界清楚啦不要被好像某個這樣的講法好像一副台灣是沒有在進行台灣事實上剛剛部長已經提到4月11號已經在進行當中了4月11號已經談過了經濟部的同仁也有參與其中嘛對不對"},{"start":199.305,"end":214.81,"text":"經濟部的同仁這個談判小組我不是那麼清楚啦好所以有談了啦有談就對了沒關係有些讓部長做一些保留啦這個沒關係那再來我請教啦那接下來是電費的問題啦因為我們現在動漲嘛那動漲了之後"},{"start":220.205,"end":248.877,"text":"部長現在動漲之後其實因為台電當時為了吸收整個這個油價的部分上漲的部分吸收了大概六千億嘛那我們會再提出最佳預算嗎我到地方上聽到很多人都說接下來他們很擔憂包括美國的這些關稅的問題的時候很擔憂接下來的電價在七八月的時候的這些夏季電價的部分那很多人甚至希望政府要來撥補來支持啊會再提出最佳預算嗎"},{"start":250.848,"end":261.61,"text":"報告委員我們會綜合考量實際進行的狀況那麼下季我們下季電價我們在之前就已經"},{"start":263.178,"end":287.201,"text":"在討論漲不漲上一次上一次的討論裡面就已經確定這個不漲價對先不漲對不對是這個樣子這樣的進行對那但是台下一波討論這個電價電價委員會他們討論是在這個九月底九月份對那會不會再提出來經濟部考不考慮再提出來追加預算來降低台電的壓力我們現在是這樣子我上一次有呼籲過"},{"start":288.522,"end":310.617,"text":"就是我們考慮所有的這個國家的這個CPI然後這些狀況那是考慮這個關稅的這個衝擊所以我們在3月的時候就提出來不漲價但是我們真的為了台電的經營台電的財務的狀況我們真的希望我們當初所提出來的2000億的撥補"},{"start":312.498,"end":341.967,"text":"能夠大院能夠通過讓我們可以拿到這個2000億撥補來改善我台電所以部長的意思應該是還是要繼續支持希望能夠支持2000億一樣來撥補台電那至於用什麼樣的形式的部分的話經濟部會來研議啦齁但是事實上還是希望用這個2000億撥補這樣的形式上來協助台電能夠對我們台電馬上有提供確認的這樣這個力顯的這樣的改善效果我也希望把那個所有的方式全部提出來啦好不好"},{"start":342.227,"end":364.134,"text":"就是說因為現在聽起來在野黨很多也慢慢也覺得說我應該對的產業不要受到影響所以希望來支持台電的時候我也希望部長把這些方案也再次把它提出來好不好讓台電不要承受這麼巨大的一個財務上的壓力是謝謝委員好那再來我請教一下現在我們關稅有881的一個支持方案裡面有710是跟工業有關"},{"start":366.535,"end":379.295,"text":"這個應該是一個底標嘛就是說因為隨著談判的結果會有不同的跟美國談判會有不同的一些狀況嘛對不對但是政府支持這些基礎傳統產業支持中小企業支持受影響的產業這個態度沒有變嘛對不對"},{"start":381.198,"end":402.257,"text":"完全沒有變所以我們會隨時來談議長但我想這是一個底標就是說當然我們希望最後談的結果很好大家不受影響或者是影響很低那當然政府就可以比較不用花這麼多的財源但是如果他的影響是很大的因為談判區在變動那這881是底標嘛有可能再往上追加是吧"},{"start":403.197,"end":429.025,"text":"這個我想院長在座談會的時候也都有指示要請大家放心基本上基於輔助這個產業具有競爭力的狀況之下我們也不希望這些產業失去這樣的市佔率譬如說它在美國的市場佔有率它如果失掉了然後要再回去其實也不太容易所以我們希望在這一波談判的"},{"start":430.186,"end":436.716,"text":"這個結果完成之前這個應該就是您所說的這個底標那如果真的不足"},{"start":437.625,"end":462.94,"text":"我們會增加會繼續追加嘛我想這個沒有問題啦那本來今天要公布的要延後一周公布細節嘛那應該也是因為跟會跟談的也會有因為我們經過市場的一個座談會啊那每個業者都有提出一些新的這樣的一個建議確實當初我們在這個這個構思的時候有一些沒有放進去像這個大家的這個舊的貸款啊"},{"start":464.702,"end":468.673,"text":"是不是可以延續啊等等那時候沒有想到那現在因為這個"},{"start":470.915,"end":497.504,"text":"這個院長他有指示嘛雨天不收傘所以全力支持我們的這個產業所以在這個部分的話我們會做微調所以會延後一個禮拜我也希望這個方案啊另外當然也希望談判的過程一方面是聽到了地方企業的聲音啊另外一方面也希望談判過程的部分對我們是有更有利的一些狀況現在當然是用比較不好的狀況去估嘛但希望談的過程有更好的狀況"},{"start":498.544,"end":512.983,"text":"用那個32%的最糟糕的狀況來做這個才能夠最能夠有效的去協助到這些產業好那我們期待下禮拜出來那再來剛剛部長有提到雨天收傘這件事情我也希望"},{"start":513.724,"end":531.703,"text":"對於這段時間特別是不要抽銀根我幾乎聽到不管是從產業界到農業界都是這樣大家擔憂都是被抽銀根這件事情我希望這件事情還是要請包括部長 包括主委跟金管會跟整個財務部裡面都要做溝通"},{"start":532.424,"end":545.814,"text":"銀行在這段時間要繼續支持不要在這個時間反而緊縮了我就認為這個這是最快而能夠協助產業的一個很好的方法是的好不好這請部長要持續的反映最後一個小問題可能跟你們那個但也是重大的問題"},{"start":547.795,"end":569.309,"text":"我兩三天前有講我們的詐騙這個相當大比例來自於臉書那其實今天我看到那個新聞其實蠻心痛的一個林建榮他是刑事警察局的他自己在抓這個防詐結果他因為點了進去之後反倒是更多的推播詐騙廣告給他我從一兩年前的時候就不斷在講臉書有絕對有能力去"},{"start":570.389,"end":585.929,"text":"辨別出哪些是詐騙的訊息那如果你不有效去賭你內控機制不做的話整天要警政署幫你檢查查到再告訴你再下架受騙者已經多少更何況我認為這幾乎是一個共犯嘛你詐騙者賺詐騙的錢你賺詐騙者的廣告"},{"start":588.792,"end":602.562,"text":"那這個當然是一個共犯結構這很惡劣啊那為什麼臉書都有條件去演算法連降載都能降流都能降得下來了有些關鍵都能降流了你最這麼容易判斷出來的詐騙的廣告你卻無法辯對它"},{"start":604.924,"end":626.804,"text":"我認為臉書是沒有誠意也不認真甚至於共犯結構在處理這個問題我希望訴法部當然在處理我希望經濟部跟國發會展現你們的影響力給臉書更大的壓力好不好不要想要來賺台灣這樣的錢但是連這種詐騙這種錢都不放過我認為這有點惡劣啦這其實做得到我一兩年前就一直在講這件事情"},{"start":627.785,"end":647.543,"text":"我認為我請經濟部跟國安法會能夠更加重視這問題詐騙是人民最痛絕的讓很多人傾家蕩產甚至於犧牲了生命輕生了我認為這個部分政府要更強調作為而臉書現在既然佔最高的比例的時候我們希望部長跟整個主委都有影響力對臉書也都有產業的關係"},{"start":650.245,"end":671.512,"text":"多跟他們溝通請他們要重視這個問題如果要進入台灣的市場要賺台灣的錢要付起該有的企業責任不要連這種東西該過濾掉的都不過濾掉你在平台擋掉這些詐騙廣告看不到的詐騙人數大幅減少了嘛那你連這種詐騙廣告都讓它不斷的跳出來還因為點了一則詐騙來更多的詐騙廣告全部跳出來給你"},{"start":672.532,"end":684.177,"text":"自從點算難怪人家諷刺的要命好不好 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有請部長"},{"start":26.486,"end":47.046,"text":"部長好部長一早上我都有聆聽你在達沃修委員的提出質疑還有一些相關重點的回應,基本上都還蠻OK不過我這個請在修正後整理幾個點,也請給部長做一些參考請指教"},{"start":47.987,"end":53.65,"text":"其實這個川普預告藥品也可能納入關稅的清單在這個當下同時在14日就前天也啟動了調查半導體與半導體製造設備及藥品與藥物原料"},{"start":69.818,"end":90.177,"text":"包含這個陳敏藥進口對美國國家的安全的影響所以他就會繼續引發各國對進口藥價的上漲的高度緊張這個是必然但是台灣的健保也是高度依賴進口藥物尤其是癌症藥的藥品應該有18次來自美國"},{"start":95.441,"end":122.219,"text":"這也是不爭的事實對不對那同時國際藥廠在台灣剛剛已經有講到已經就是沒有直接在這邊投資的生產的這個藥廠啦以前還有石家嘛但是講那個說因為台灣的市場很小所以所以就是這樣離開這個我倒很難認同我在這邊就我的理解像新加坡新加坡有些藥廠是這個"},{"start":125.882,"end":145.395,"text":"阿斯利康他設施數億美元在新加坡的國內去設廠按人口、按土地面積台灣都大過於新加坡了所以這個等一下我們再來討論我是先跟部長提醒這同時國際藥廠原廠要仰賴進口輸入佔健保會的支出高達七成以上"},{"start":152.459,"end":163.242,"text":"另外根據經濟部的統計藥品及醫用化學品2023出口值是17.8億那進口值是66億所以藥品貿易的利差高達48.2億的美元我想從這些數據會顯示台灣這個醫藥品依賴進口的程度是非常大的"},{"start":173.983,"end":200.082,"text":"這也是一個事實嘛對不對所以部長昨天有接受媒體採訪的時候你的回應是這樣表示全民健康保險要務幾戶項目及支付標準已訂定明確規範未來藥品價格調漲將依照規定進行成本分析並向健保署提出相關申請再依據這個核准結果調整要價不會影響國內藥品進口這是部長的答案嗎"},{"start":203.991,"end":213.677,"text":"政府正確?這可能要分兩段,一個是在福祉國內...那你在答詢的時候有沒有分兩段?"},{"start":214.85,"end":238.844,"text":"對,我的意思就是說只要進口的有漲價,有社道專制的影響,當然我們有一個機制來讓他來不要賠本嘛,就是能夠在健保就會漲價嘛那當然第二個就是我們在盡量,剛剛委員也提到嘛,我們盡量來扶植國內的,這又是另外一個很重要的一個政策在努力"},{"start":240.849,"end":249.781,"text":"我只是要再請教說部長如果達戶這樣是正確的只不過是分兩段我把它併在一塊這樣說明是比較"},{"start":251.107,"end":278.028,"text":"比較不精準啦,是不是這樣?還是其實你確實就是講這樣嘛?對啦,我要講的就是這樣子這個有工會是有提出相關的一些警告啦他們表示今年健保要求正在進行健保要價的政策改革嘛那現在你又遇到美國關稅變革之際是不是會衝擊這個國外藥廠蘇台的意願?所以到時候不是只有價格的問題"},{"start":279.705,"end":283.831,"text":"絕對不是只有價格的問題然後國外的藥廠到底願不願意把藥賣到台灣的問題喔這個你們有沒有評估過"},{"start":293.282,"end":316.18,"text":"來跟委員說明一下就是說在我們這一次的這個藥價調整裡面呢對於這個過專利期的我們就是所謂的第二類藥我們會去參考10國的藥價去做藥價的調整我想大家可能在關切這些進口商關切的是這一種可是因為它是過了專利期在其他各國都是快速的調整"},{"start":317.36,"end":336.97,"text":"來節省藥費那麼對於參考10國我們參考這10國都是比我們GDP高的國家所以我們也不認為說這樣是會強害到台灣的進口商的意願只要是成本不合都可以按照我們支付標準的34條來提出申請來適時的調整"},{"start":341.952,"end":355.952,"text":"好,這個是署長你的答覆。工會現在有提出三個建言,你們看一下,請部長跟署長看一下。第一個是由經濟部,其實今天經濟部沒有來是很奇怪一件事情。經濟部設立生技外銷統籌窗口,積極協助國內廠商。"},{"start":359.977,"end":384.033,"text":"那第二項是簡化台灣藥品市場准錄程序經美國歐盟核准處方藥建立簡化縮短台灣食藥署藥品查驗流程加速提升新藥可進國外藥廠輸給醫院那第三是調整健保署藥價改革措施你們怎麼看這樣的建議好我想第一個當然經濟部這個部分我相信是應該有"},{"start":385.354,"end":406.213,"text":"有這樣的窗口那當然這個部分我們再跟經濟部來請教那第二項就請食藥署江署長跟委員報告一下蔡委這邊我簡單的說明有關於台灣藥品市場進入的程序裡面特別提到美國的話就是FDA歐盟就是EMA裡面的核准的處方用藥"},{"start":407.034,"end":430.207,"text":"那我們針對處方的用藥其實在國內的審核的機制裡面我們也有一些加速審核的機制如果國外已經審核的部分我們目前其實希望能夠去簡化它能夠達成新藥能夠新的療效國人有機會能夠快速使用到這些先進的用藥的方式這剛剛你都有答悟過我說針對這樣的一個"},{"start":432.608,"end":454.866,"text":"對 國會提出的健額對策 你們原則上可以接受吧只有在新藥的部分比較有考量這個90天內 剩下不到90天 到時候會有什麼變化沒有誰抓得準啦 對不對因為這個川普的變化太大了 現在當然幕僚給他什麼建議他或許會聽 也或許不會聽 也或許聽了他又改變"},{"start":456.181,"end":483.416,"text":"所以你很難抓個準嘛 但是因為因為這種重要的物資我們不能要缺藥的時候才來做相關的醫療所以我們要相關的預防機制嘛原則上是沒有錯嘛 對不對對於新藥的部分加速對於一般學名藥的部分我們其實覺得它會強力的衝擊到國內的一些藥廠的發展所以要做整體的一些考量 以上的說明好 反正我們就"},{"start":484.697,"end":509.667,"text":"納入參考然後積極來做一些應變應該是這樣我想不只是這個現在帶以上的公會發聲連國內的三大製藥公會都有一些建議也領著發表聲明台灣應該仿效歐美日等國家以政策手段引導國產料品訓練藥提升療效跟品質這剛剛特別都有提到了建立醫病對國產料品的信心並鼓勵醫院採購"},{"start":511.007,"end":527.45,"text":"但是台灣一年的藥品及醫藥的化學品進口就高達66億美元這額度也蠻大的然後顯示台灣在藥品的戰略物資上它還是嚴重的依賴國外的資源"},{"start":528.291,"end":548.718,"text":"所以因此大家才會如此擔憂美國關稅貿易戰對台灣的藥品市場帶來的衝擊所以我們一定要強化我們自製藥品的能力嘛都要補兌也都有說嘛都有承諾嘛但是我們有什麼樣的一個先期計畫還是一個事半計畫還是你這樣到目前為止你們早已經有行政相關的政策準備要再推了嗎"},{"start":549.438,"end":571.986,"text":"有 我們即將公告的這兩個政策就是在增加我們的產業鏈的能力我那次要的能力這樣子你們有即將公告的哪兩項請說明一下一個是我們健保的藥品 藥價調整辦法還有一個是藥品的支付標準就剩這兩個法規這個就是剛剛說4月27號前要公告的"},{"start":577.043,"end":589.754,"text":"這樣就可以讓台灣強化自製藥品的能力所以是剛剛那國內三大製藥公會聯合聲明希望趕快推動的三大公會跟台灣要強化自製藥品的能力有關係嗎沒有吧"},{"start":597.495,"end":626.254,"text":"有啊,他們最近的一個聯合聲明就是希望那兩個政策趕快來實施不是啦,我們是,我剛剛最後的一點我時間到了啦,我是要強化台灣自製藥品的能力我想講這句話這兩個政策是一定有我們不僅要加強在台製造,不僅要更需要鼓勵投資生技產業嘛然後再來,因為未來不是強藥啦"},{"start":627.577,"end":641.495,"text":"因為未來不是只有疫道搶藥,我們是應該搶製藥生產線搶製藥生產線嘛,所以在這個疫情的時候就已經發現掌握藥品或是疫苗的國家,他就有話語權嘛我們現在有什麼樣的計畫,現在就來處理這些事情嗎?"},{"start":648.092,"end":665.922,"text":"我再跟委員簡單的說明就是我們分成幾段一個是對於台灣首發新藥的優惠價包含他是全球第一個或者是在國外然後兩年內國外上市兩年內到台灣來製造發行我們都有優惠合價另外對於國內製造的品項"},{"start":668.843,"end":682.011,"text":"那麼用國內製造的原料藥我們藥價加10%在國內做臨床試驗我們也加10%這個都是鼓勵讓這個在國內來製造後面就是鼓勵的一種我接受了前面那一個我覺得倒還好"},{"start":684.088,"end":708.57,"text":"如果只有這樣這坦白講江蘇長應該來答問才對因為進一步的是在國藥能夠國用國產的其實在學名藥的這個門檻相對的對接的機會大所以我們對於必要藥品的盤點那種已經過了專利期的用藥裡面有三百多種用藥我們其實看過了那我們為了讓國內的藥廠有吸引力所以我們針對東南亞國協之間"},{"start":710.772,"end":733.73,"text":"我們的藥廠的PIC GMP的認證我們產的藥就有機會往東南亞銷對於歐盟的所謂關鍵藥品的法案底下我們國內的藥廠的製作因為是PIC GMP也可以對接到那邊的銷售所以整體來講我們針對這一次剛才提到了健康保健相關食品的部分的產線因為是藥廠跟食品廠之間的產線之間的競合那未來因為關稅在"},{"start":739.954,"end":761.82,"text":"保健相關食品的一些差異之下我們希望能夠積極的往他導引在這個部分讓他能夠有利可圖讓這些廠商都能夠把台灣的製藥的產線能夠積極的能夠完成謝謝署長我時間已經超過一些了我剛剛特別提醒部長還有兩位署長我們未來恐怕不是只有搶藥就是搶藥就是搶製藥生產線那台灣成績何時有這麼多的"},{"start":767.701,"end":796.661,"text":"這個國外大廠來設廠,那曾幾何時這些大廠都不見了那我們收穫我們的市場很小在講這一話好像滅自己威風啊那我就疲於了新加坡,人家就可以成功去去招到這麼大的藥廠所以我們是不只要能夠自製藥品,也是要能夠吸引國際的藥廠來台來設廠啊,我想這個必須要鬆軟旗下嘛我記得我去年6月5號的時候還在委員會,甚至在院會也都指引過部長說台灣的能力"},{"start":797.421,"end":823.611,"text":"我們就有辦法舉辦這個台北國際電腦展我們應該也有能力來舉辦國際AI展智慧展都可以嘛對不對我也不曉得部長什麼時候可以成行是不是在短時間內包含這個相關的提升台灣自己製藥的能力招募國際大廠來這邊設廠的相關的一些計畫跟辦法是不是可以提供給委會做參考"},{"start":824.111,"end":827.594,"text":"有相關的流程跟計畫都很重要我們重新來檢討來研究報告"},{"start":855.234,"end":857.058,"text":"也請一座列提出了好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df0d7bc9a427ce18b2772d893bf7b7126eebda33721556222a244ffa8fba475bcd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:46:27 - 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心力不整所以這個是過去不好的現象"},{"start":131.309,"end":156.817,"text":"我們現在利用這樣的機會如果有做區域的整合那也可以做分級的醫療我覺得這是一個非常重要的你這個做的話我不知道了以我們市場機制來講只有一條路嘛你把這個醫學中心的關號會提高這樣而已大家乖乖的去遞去醫院或者去醫院以台大醫院農總幾個醫院都有先示不會去提高關號會"},{"start":158.217,"end":180.49,"text":"那這問題沒辦法解決啊我想委員也是專家啦我們最重要就是要讓他分級醫療落實我們政府的工作以及說我們一直叫了十幾十年都落實不了咧所以要努力所以要想盡辦法如果真的好做的工作也不會我們做了幾十年還在做啦這個跟你的DRG有沒有關係DRG啊DRG喔有一點關係喔"},{"start":188.314,"end":192.237,"text":"以診斷來講 門診應該是沒有作用門診跟糖尿病是一個診斷來講是沒有關係的我想慢慢的讓我們第二個大的問題這個賴清德總統說到不同工不同酬什麼時候可以開始試試"},{"start":207.213,"end":214.437,"text":"好我想這個部分健保署做很多這個賴總統這句話是講對的比如我們這樣講同樣的醫生看感冒的跟看心臟的很複雜看癌症的很複雜解釋的個別幾乎都10m看感冒的幾乎都很接近的老鼻水啦 咳嗽的啦基本上來講都是很接近的"},{"start":235.01,"end":245.331,"text":"你們現在看整個是一樣的啊所以賴總統講這句話是對的不同共 不同仇對 你們是不是可以試試我這個一直在努力我想不是 要是告訴我們時間不要啊"},{"start":246.894,"end":252.158,"text":"蘇蘇長跟委員報告一下跟委員報告確實啦像一個診啦能夠看到100個表示都很簡單啦所以那個診察費不用太高可是呢相對的如果一個病人要看二三十分鐘我們應該要給他高的診察費所以我們要會分成現在正在研議中的那麼下半年就會實施有所謂一般診察費因為我們的程序還要經過專家會議跟共同理定會議大概什麼時間嘛 給我們講一下大概最rough的"},{"start":276.495,"end":303.712,"text":"最保守的應該在第三季啦所以明年的十月之前今年的十月之前我們可以落實賴總統所講的不同工不同酬我們是先從診察費那事實上我們今年上半年五月開始就已經先調了這個加護病房的費用急診的那些費用就調了42億了所以其實一直在進行"},{"start":304.392,"end":326.428,"text":"那我剛剛提到的是門診在醫院的門診的診察費那麼把它分成一般跟複雜現在不認真做這個事情喔真的到後來找不到醫生喔那個醫生都跑去做美容的喔是也太多對不對 一樣是醫生喔這辛苦的要是做功德啦因為怎麼內科外科都做功德啦真的 做功德啦"},{"start":327.288,"end":343.084,"text":"是不是這樣最後一個小問題是大問題這是川普的關稅喔我們總統說要從零開始大家就馬上想到什麼關稅其實中華民國最高的關稅是什麼你知道嗎跟你有關係不知道喔30% 逼民30%不是"},{"start":353.001,"end":364.395,"text":"跟他叫做其他項目的什麼我查了一下就是什麼進口藥品30%是全國第一名的進口藥品以健康食品不是藥品的進口健康食品"},{"start":365.512,"end":371.615,"text":"堅果健康食品是根本不完保健食品啊現在還要保護為什麼要課這樣你們講的就是要保護國內的健康食品業者為什麼要保護你告訴我跟委員報告一下訂關稅訂多少其實跟食藥署跟衛福部應該是沒有關係是產發署不是我們訂的是產發署跟財政部訂出來的關稅的"},{"start":395.287,"end":419.879,"text":"可是你們管他 家屬管他 健康食品 健康食品你不管嗎進口這個食品是在一般的食品的進口裡面呢 要關稅的部分呢是在那裡 可是不是關稅要管食品進來這個安全性有效性等等是我們在管的可是要訂多少關稅的部分其實是不是我們不是你們訂的對 不是我們訂的可是你們可以提供意見啊對 所以我們其實面對這個議題之下就"},{"start":421.46,"end":432.347,"text":"提到因為談從零談起應該會往下降嘛所以這些食品保健相關食品的產線跟藥品會重疊所以我們希望有機會導演到我可以跟你講會變成零這意想不大的因為老實講這個國外的健康食品進來實在太貴了降為零國內的業者應該不會講廢話"},{"start":447.216,"end":461.163,"text":"我們希望國內的業者如果能夠製造協名藥的話,能夠盡量他的產線來製造協名藥才能夠就地生產,就地來行銷,保障我們的一個產業鏈經國藥有沒有客觀稅?沒有都沒有客觀稅?藥品沒有好謝謝委員,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df51c0a3b95993a689772d893bf7b7126eebda33721556222ac95f145e03d1f1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:15:22 - 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大家早安我今天很高興說教文跟教養委員會能夠對AI基本法又往前邁進一大步從去年4月我在跟葛昭偉還有洪孟凱委員我們在共提了一個AI基本法然後這段時間還好我們的科技委員葛委員他不斷的呼籲奔走之下"},{"start":32.185,"end":48.566,"text":"雖然立法院這邊很熱一直在努力的進步但是行政院似乎似乎還是一直在停滯而且到現在都還不願意把草案送到國會那其實這個跟國際的趨勢是背道而馳那加上政府最近的一些政策幾乎也搞不清楚這個所謂的AI"},{"start":49.167,"end":73.729,"text":"政府會不會像葛偉元說的會A變成B變BI這個我也不知道尤其是我們看到最近的一些狀況AI它所需要的運算需要大量的電力以及晶片就我們的電力我們的發電是比較貴而且在國際間認為是屬於髒電就是用不乾淨能源所發的電力那在晶片的部分呢我們最近的一些新聞包括台積電要到美國設廠"},{"start":74.97,"end":83.419,"text":"降低全世界高階晶片在台灣生產的這個比重這個其實對於AI的發展其實反而是負面的做法所以政府的政策"},{"start":84.701,"end":105.63,"text":"不懂為什麼其實他是往AI發展的反方向去走第二個就是所謂的AI內閣為什麼他到目前為止都不願意把這個基本法的草案送到國會我想說不管政府怎麼樣我們國會還是盡我們的全力去努力那今天我很感謝所有的這些與會的學者給我們很多方面還有周全的意見"},{"start":106.67,"end":124.813,"text":"那我過去在2020年那個時候我自己在研究所念工業工程的時候其實我那時候的論文主要就是寫跟人工智慧有關的那我是利用人工智慧的系統去做一些洗錢上面的偵測以及防治那這個東西在目前實務上面也用了很多因為它可以"},{"start":125.393,"end":141.293,"text":"先做第一線的防治第一線的把一些問題勾結出來那他利用自己不斷的學習不斷的精進就是人工智慧的系統他對於洗錢的防治其實有很大的幫助那目前食物也運作的很好"},{"start":142.334,"end":163.185,"text":"所以我覺得人工智慧它在將來一定是人類世界一個非常重要的東西而且它的發展不會像人類文明的發展是循序漸進它可能走到某一個程度之後它是瞬間的跳一倍跳十倍跳一百倍是瞬間的跳所以這是人工智慧不一樣有別於人類智慧不一樣的地方"},{"start":164.045,"end":191.413,"text":"那我在還沒擔任立委的時候其實我在財團法人人工智慧法律國際基金會擔任副執行長那這也是國內第一個去研究人工智慧法律方面的一個基金會那我們也很謝謝基金會這段時間給我們非常多的指導以及這個立法方面的給他們經過很多年的這個討論出來的這個結晶其實我們在國會也是很倚重這個法案"},{"start":192.993,"end":219.846,"text":"我們當初我在去年所主題的這個草案其實這個我們主要是希望建構四個重點一個是以人為本多元包容永續發展還有值得信任其他就橫跨了將來人工智慧發達之後人類跟機器之間要怎麼去協調怎麼保障一些失業的人口怎麼樣讓國家加強對於失業的因為人工智慧而失業的人他們的補助以及一些譬如說"},{"start":221.147,"end":247.806,"text":"一些個人資料等等的這個保護這個東西在我們的基本法都有特別說到當然基本法不是作用法基本法是整個AI走向的一個很重要的一個方向指導的那個方向的一個很基礎的一個法制我們希望把人工智慧導向一個正向的一個發展同時帶動國家整體的這個數位轉型也同時造福我們一般的人民"},{"start":248.587,"end":277.201,"text":"那今年那個葛委員他有主題我也跟他一起共提的這個法案其實方向都是一致的那我們幾個包括洪委員我們三個其實一直很努力的推動希望在這個會期能夠趕快把人工智慧基本法推過去因為當初我們推出草案開記者會的時候我記得那時候歐洲才剛過就這段時間我們一直停滯不前其他國家亞洲韓國等等他們一直在往前超前但是我們一直在原地踏步我希望"},{"start":278.755,"end":298.847,"text":"不管怎麼樣政府不走可是我們立法院這邊還是要努力的推動過去因為只有基本法確認完方向之後各個領域的作用法才能夠趕快出來否則就是完全停在那裡那你要知道像我剛說的人工智慧的發展跟人類智慧的堆疊累積真的不一樣"},{"start":299.987,"end":320.056,"text":"他可能是許多不同的機器他所學習到的東西到時候彙整在一起的時候那是一瞬間的所以人類從從知道走到這個地方會跌倒他可能要三歲五歲多次的經驗去摸插頭會被電到他可能要好幾年的經驗累積他才知道要要規避掉這個但是"},{"start":320.876,"end":336.509,"text":"有人工智慧的話它可能是瞬間因為它同時可能全世界有幾千萬台機器去學習到這個知識瞬間匯集給它也就是說人工智慧的發展就是我剛剛說的匯瞬間如果我們在法制的推動上面總是延宕總是"},{"start":338.03,"end":353.282,"text":"那個沒有往前再踏一步的話我們完全跟不上人工智慧的發展以及產業上面的需求所以我很謝謝就是兩位葛昭偉還有洪偉勇我們這幾位戰友我們一直在拼命在這一塊上面"},{"start":355.663,"end":380.605,"text":"最後我想說時間也不多啦我還是希望各個領域的專家學者能夠給我們最好的建議因為目前立法院各個委員已經提出非常多不同的版本雖然方向大致上都相同但是我們還是希望在彙整大家的這些經驗譬如說葛昭偉他正在科技上面非常非常的厲害那他給我們很多的經驗然後讓我們去修出最好的"},{"start":381.246,"end":407.331,"text":"基本法出來然後這個基本法因為它是基本法所以它可以因應在各個領域這個方向是不會變的讓各個領域都能夠有自己最好的作用法出來那還有我也對於那個昭偉他所倡議的說要設置獨立的委員會例如像韓國的制度這部分我也是非常支持那我也希望說政府能夠好好的研討這個有意義的這個建議"},{"start":409.171,"end":428.744,"text":"當然最後還是希望行政機關趕快推出法案一個基本法講了那麼多年了卻都推不出來還是在搞整天搞大罷免我真不知道國家這樣會走向什麼樣的方向好那最後我要謝謝那個裁判法人人工智慧法律國際研究基金會這段時間給我們的指導謝謝給我們這麼多經驗上面的傳承好謝謝 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邀請部長請協部長委員好"},{"start":21.456,"end":42.645,"text":"那美國總統川普祭出了對等的關稅政策雖然在第一波沒有藥品跟醫材但是關稅的政策它是變化非常的大那外界也預期藥品可能成為下一波加徵關稅的對象更憂心它會衝擊到我們整個台灣的健保用藥的市場"},{"start":43.745,"end":46.948,"text":"醫界也擔心在製藥成本上漲導致售價也提高那在這種情況之下會不會導致一波缺藥潮那當然部長你昨天受訪的時候你也提到從美國進口的癌症藥品可能會漲價"},{"start":64.423,"end":79.668,"text":"可能會漲價所以在這邊首先來請教部長我們政府要如何的來因應你認為是否有可能會引發的缺藥潮那藥品的這個漲價它是不是就直接會衝擊到我們的這個患者的一個權益請做說明"},{"start":83.689,"end":107.736,"text":"好我先簡略回答那個委員的垂行第一個因為現在關稅這一波還沒有到我們議要的頻所以目前並沒有直接的影響但是我們必須機安思維所以我們來看看檢討我們目前的機制我們從類必要的清單"},{"start":109.156,"end":122.573,"text":"然後有缺藥的平台監測然後如果有漲價的話在健保的部分也有一定的機制來給幾戶更多這樣的一個完整的情況之下目前是沒有缺藥的一個擔心"},{"start":124.275,"end":138.97,"text":"其實沒有 來給己父更多再健保我們依照全民健康保險要務 己父項目以及支付的辦法 支付的標準那麼你們原本是在今年的1月20號就已經預告中止"},{"start":139.611,"end":141.393,"text":"但是為什麼到現在還沒公告呢所以在剛剛的這個臨時提案裡頭本席也聽到那部長說本來應該要該趕快決定的就要決定因為大家現在心很慌健康是不容許打折的"},{"start":158.032,"end":172.022,"text":"所以提案是說希望能夠在4月27號以前正式公告全民健康保險要務給付的項目以及支付的標準這個修正案那是不是會在如期的這個時間來完成"},{"start":174.504,"end":181.07,"text":"報告委員 至少讓大家有一個依據啊對 我們這樣的時程 其實我們還是要感佩健保署的同仁收集了所有的意見 然後預告了兩個月以後所以你在1月份就已經預告終止了嘛因為我們必須要把他的意見 一旦公告我們就是要有好的政策來幫助你"},{"start":199.446,"end":211.635,"text":"當然 我們現在目前應該應該整個健保署已經完成了那時辰什麼時候會公佈那它完成了以後送到我們衛福部我們立即來送這個流程當然行政部本身主要去把它完成4月27號以前就位公告"},{"start":215.978,"end":229.312,"text":"確定4月27號以前會公告4月27號以前會來公告全民健康保險要緊負的項目以及支付的標準因為必須先安內"},{"start":230.473,"end":252.108,"text":"必須先安慰你至少讓大家能夠了解我們現在重新檢討的這個給付標準跟以及項目到底是什麼至少要讓我們的健保能夠穩定下來讓我們的這個患者都能夠安心這個是非常重要所以我們確定在4月27號以前會來做公告這兩個辦法會公告"},{"start":255.13,"end":279.788,"text":"好 謝謝部長那接下來本席要請教那我們安慰了之後那你認為目前是不會有缺藥潮但是如果在關稅啟動的時候大家都很緊張在這樣的情況之下你關稅啟動就陳如寧說的從美國進口的癌症藥一定會漲價那在這樣的情況之下我們要怎麼樣應對"},{"start":281.309,"end":309.504,"text":"我們要怎麼應對要保障讓我們的患者的權利不受打折請做說明報告委員現在藥品進到我們台灣是零關稅所以這個現在目前是如此所有的媒體你每天在看他說下一波所以大家就很緊張我們現在一起的只是一起說在整個世界關稅的一個情況是不是它的在每個花生成本"},{"start":310.373,"end":321.923,"text":"貴一點點所以他進口會賣貴一點點可是他到台灣還是零關稅嘛所以這個基本上的影響我們是覺得有限當然我們絕對不管有限他貴了一點點不管貴多大點他對我們國內的影響因為你是部長必須要盤點一定盤點而且是已經盤點盤點好了盤點好了"},{"start":331.931,"end":337.055,"text":"盤點好了也有應對的措施關於它漲價了進來了以目前來講健保是足夠來應對因為昨天你講了從美國進口的這個海洋藥會增加會漲價你現在改口說可能我也聽到有這個可能"},{"start":355.068,"end":379.923,"text":"因為現在還沒有發生所以我們當然是加可能好有可能就表示你們有在盤點有在應對但是一個結果也就是要而且現在我們盤點是不會有缺藥的現象不會有缺藥而且目前在我們健保的範疇內不會影響到我們的患者的一個權益這是部長您現在可以我們再怎麼樣都不會影響到患者的權益好"},{"start":381.064,"end":405.194,"text":"加油接下來本席要跟你討論的也就是我們護理師人員的問題那之前本席有問過你總統先生在選舉的時候說兩年內要醫病這個這個這個三班護病比要入法當然上一次本席跟你討論你也拿出了誠意你說在你的任內會完成到目前為止是否也是如此呢"},{"start":407.108,"end":435.143,"text":"應該是總統的任內我是總統的任內好沒關係我們理清楚就好總統的任內但是依照我們中華民國護理師公會全國聯合會所提出他們幾點的建議第一個他們說希望用公務預算來補資第二個他們希望提升健保的點子確保醫院用於提升護理人員的薪資所以本席要請教這麼長的時間了我們護理人員的薪資有沒有提升"},{"start":436.072,"end":464.421,"text":"好我想我們政府這邊是用十二大策略譬如說補夜班的啦你現在是用這個補助獎勵嗎那個是夜班就直接到直接到護理人員的身上當然啊那其他的呢那其他的護病比達到譬如說醫學中心現在達到六成他有很多都拿到獎勵那當然就是給醫院去我們希望他能夠"},{"start":464.981,"end":485.226,"text":"多補到護理人員或者給護理人員加薪部長你昨天有沒有看到這個新聞他指出成大醫院因護理人力流失要關閉部分的病房院方預計五月份關病房目前他已經關了四十多床要再關閉三十床左右"},{"start":486.007,"end":502.684,"text":"這也顯示出這個護理人員的一個人力的一個流失所以我在這邊建議你目前是用獎勵用補助的方式但是我們還是要朝著路法讓大家都能夠安心"},{"start":503.865,"end":522.866,"text":"那你剛剛回答的說是原本總統在選舉的時候他說是兩年內那你現在邱部長告訴我們的是說在總統的任內會完成三班互併筆錄法是不是如此你往這個目標現在也都是進行式嘛是不是"},{"start":523.74,"end":530.764,"text":"現在有在推動嗎?有沒有在推動?路法的部分有沒有在推動?當然就是說要先獎勵獎勵先行然後等溝通差不多有共識你預計溝通共識大概在什麼時間開始推動?這個醫療的體系很複雜我們大概小小的醫院那麼多所以你現在給我們的答案就是說總統任內會完成三班互併比的路法是不是?"},{"start":552.998,"end":555.722,"text":"我們會朝這樣來努力而且你們現在是溝通中是不是因為獎勵先行那審理先行如果大家覺得這做得到便宜也能夠調整而且做包括醫學中心區醫院地區醫院還有偏鄉"},{"start":569.501,"end":584,"text":"所以我們也聽到一個答案就是說有兩年改為任內就是四年要完成這是您現在部長告訴我們的那最後一個議題也就是川普上任之後他"},{"start":585.141,"end":608.765,"text":"上個數小時馬上宣布說這個要退出這個這個世衛那聯合國也表示美國在會2026年1月22號會退出WHO那過去美國很積極的協助台灣來加入WHO甚至或者是以觀察員的身份來參與WHA但是如果他真的如果萬一真的退出的時候那我方"},{"start":609.385,"end":632.643,"text":"我們要怎麼辦呢我們是否會失去了最主要的支持者那我們會怎麼樣來努力那我們是不是會加強透過雙邊的合作比如說台美、台日、台歐盟建立國際醫療夥伴的關係來提升整個台灣在全球醫療政策的一個影響力請說明"},{"start":634.332,"end":640.637,"text":"好 謝謝我想美國對於退出WHO這樣的一個"},{"start":642.931,"end":657.623,"text":"一個策略 到底是一個策略或者是暫時的還是永久的 這個我們要小心應應不能說怎麼化解 我們就要不要做了我們照常5月16號WHA開會的時候我們還是照常一位行動團 甚至我們的立委 督導團都還是會去呈行 那像去年總共有大概"},{"start":669.893,"end":679.425,"text":"近百個團體台灣來自海外的華人或是台灣人到那一邊去努力"},{"start":680.475,"end":689.359,"text":"那這個一定要去把握做一個禮拜的時間一定要把握這個重要關鍵時刻跟許許多多的國家跟許許多多做互動對所以怎麼樣建立我們醫療夥伴的關係我想邱部長這個是我們非常關鍵因為台灣的醫療是世界級的我們一定在國際的接軌要好好的去應對去聯繫"},{"start":701.085,"end":711.8,"text":"謝謝委員所以肯定我們醫療的努力那我們一定會把它在國際運用醫療的國際的力量來連結來增加台灣的冷鮮度感謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfbe929cbbe1a47bc2d598beef862d51bbebda33721556222af642cddcd8afeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:30:09 - 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我們還是請邱部長部長 不好意思 先靠一下今天有聽到你很完整的報告我們也知道這次關稅的議題引起這麼大的衝擊美國其實在許可證的部分佔的並不多"},{"start":30.02,"end":49.066,"text":"只有佔了1.86%不過前三大類來電我們所知道的就是包括人體血液製劑抗腫瘤藥品還有神經系統用藥有一些單價真的是非常高所以到底衝擊會如何我們可能還是要小心應驗不過我想就其他議題我們就"},{"start":51.167,"end":68.934,"text":"逐一的來跟部長討論請教一下包括這個產業的穩定供應還有房息產地有沒有機會透過這個危機來創造轉機這是我們非常期待一開始我們還是先關心一下世界各國其實都非常挺台灣"},{"start":70.254,"end":94.703,"text":"來參與世界衛生大會今年5月19號會在Zenewa舉行那這部分之前部長也接受了媒體的訪問也發表一些準備的部分的一些資訊給大家做參考那這部分不知道部長有沒有要利用這個機會在稍微做一些說明包括世界各國的各個不同的這個領域的"},{"start":96.324,"end":108.023,"text":"國家或者是跟我們理念相同的這些地方跟我們加入這個WHA這個大會的一個支持的部分可不可以請部長稍微再說明一下"},{"start":108.871,"end":125.315,"text":"好的,非常感謝我們王勝旭委員問這個題目,那也感謝王委員去年參加立委的勢導團,真的他的辛苦度不輸我們的衛福部這個叫做行動團"},{"start":127.596,"end":148.032,"text":"異位行動團真的非常的辛苦我們共同的目的就是利用那個WHA這個短短的一個禮拜當中怎麼樣去創造這個機會跟各國來做互動所以有明的也有私下的像我們就跟可能有幾十個國家"},{"start":149.293,"end":167.511,"text":"衛福部的長官們做雙方的一個互動其實都因為這樣的互動建立了很好的關係這個非常重要然後當然現在委員去做國會的外交"},{"start":168.232,"end":179.665,"text":"也讓瑞士的國會跟其他如果有過去的國會議員有對台灣更多的了解跟支持特別感謝的就是說像去年我們可能有"},{"start":181.109,"end":200.096,"text":"近百個來自行政及立法部門專業議會團體智庫協議界、意見領袖及公民社會特別像年輕的醫學生又組團過去所以大家共同把WHA把台灣的一個人民照顧的權益"},{"start":201.216,"end":221.908,"text":"雖然我們一年365天都在做努力但是在那個時機是我們在日元瓦把它展現出來那裡面也有開不少一個專業的論壇所以我想今年我們雖然經會少了很多但是我們還是一樣希望能夠維持這樣的一個努力的量能"},{"start":223.267,"end":246.517,"text":"來幫台灣在國際化上是而且這一次我們前副總統也會去參與的同時也會發表重要的演講我們很期待大家都能夠更了解台灣透過這個管道可以讓全球看到台灣在做相關衛生行政各方面針對民眾健康福祉的一個努力"},{"start":246.917,"end":265.849,"text":"今天我們報告一下我們的從總統府到行政院都很重視這樣的一個國際活動不過聽說明年美國就不參加了因為今年還要參加啦所以我覺得我們該做的還是要做因為畢竟很難得的機會我想我們還是"},{"start":267.21,"end":289.523,"text":"我們不是說完全WHO的問題而是我們是理念相近國家的一個互動這是一個很難得的機會明年再相機形式再過來就是我們看到今天的報告裡面針對藥品醫材的這個穩定供應的策略就包括這四大項大家已經都討論很多那我們也了解其實除了這些藥品醫材以外"},{"start":290.444,"end":314.883,"text":"有兩個部分可能要特別麻煩部長再說明的更清楚一點尤其是針對血液製劑還有疫苗 疫苗剛才都沒說到這部分有沒有特別要再加強那個疫苗我們當然做好準備而且它都長期 很多都是長期簽A的基本上我們都有去盤點是不是要請那個集管署莊仁祥署長先跟委員報告"},{"start":315.663,"end":339.069,"text":"疫苗的事情那有關疫苗的部分其實我們目前其實都是多是長年的合約啦那而且大部分都也大部分都不是美國廠的那另外這個因為我們買公費疫苗其實我們的關稅也都是零啦這個部分這個我們也會嘗試就是說針對多多年的合約然後多家的這個"},{"start":340.009,"end":364.331,"text":"和的廠商來一起來來購置這個疫苗所以我們在短暫的這個預期是目前是不會有什麼太大的影響以上可以是好所以民眾是可以放心不過國產疫苗他對於整體的這些防疫各方面也有他的重要性所以我了解有這樣的方向正在努力我們有成立這個疫苗"},{"start":366.413,"end":380.592,"text":"產業推動的一個小組在健康臺灣推動委員會正在執行來扶植我們特別是國內的疫苗的產業保護人民的健康那至於協議之際是不是容我給江署長"},{"start":383.155,"end":400.183,"text":"有關於我們血液製劑因為有國血國用的一些政策在所以我們以目前的狀況特別是在我們的IVIG的部分我們使用的從九成現在是五成是國內的白蛋白的部分也占了一定的比例"},{"start":400.743,"end":428.106,"text":"那至於凝血因子的部分呢因為已經改用基因工程的方式來生產所以在國血國用的狀況特別血漿的部分我們目前是五萬公升的血漿那正在找希望找第二個代工廠能夠把它提升到十萬公升的血漿的供給量對於血源的不足的部分我們也修正了捐血的健康標準的部分我們從原來的年齡上限從65歲提升到70歲"},{"start":429.207,"end":456.889,"text":"所以總整的一個政策希望我們在國血國用以及國血補充的部分能夠持續的緊緊以上說明好 有備無犯我們可以把事情做得更好剛剛我們也聽到其他委員會談到有關於很多我們的原料要是來自中國有部分來自印度這部分如果說我們希望能夠有更好的一些防範措施的話"},{"start":457.91,"end":487.251,"text":"我們很擔心會不會有反傾銷或者是大量傾銷的問題就是說他們這次因為有其他的這個關稅議題所以無法銷售他們自己已經產好的這些產品會不會透過這樣的傾銷進到台灣造成這個衝擊那這部分有沒有應用措施我想防中國或者防其他的地方來把台灣當成稀產地這個絕對是完全的禁止所以我想經濟部也有"},{"start":488.95,"end":498.084,"text":"監測特別這個新聞報導有特別的來監測啦那不曉得食藥署在這個部分在洗產地這個部分有沒有說"},{"start":499.91,"end":518.266,"text":"我們針對這中國的藥品的部分我們的所有的用藥都有很清楚要有確切的所謂的許可證的情況之下才會讓他進來我們的臺灣所以我們在審查的過程中呢是他一個製造廠原設製造廠在哪當作是我們審查最重要的基準"},{"start":518.786,"end":537.799,"text":"我們對於所有的藥廠裡面我們必須要符合PIC GMP的廠而且我們能夠確定茶廠准許他輸入才能夠甘給他的許可證所以這部分我們透過這樣的機制之下所以可以確定我們現在的藥物的許可證來源是在哪裡的生產那以上說明"},{"start":538.889,"end":559.25,"text":"所以也希望能夠非常緊密的去監測這些藥品的流向再過來我們也理解這個其實就是一個轉機因為如果我們透過好的方式跟美國達成更好的關稅協議的話其實我們能夠引進很多新的生技製藥產業"},{"start":561.252,"end":576.484,"text":"變成一個新的供應鏈的好的一個基地這部分不知道未來有沒有什麼規劃或者是可以處理的部分好這個部分健保署可以來補充一下今天已經談了很多"},{"start":578.154,"end":594.822,"text":"鼓勵的措施但是應應剛剛您提的要前面一張提的說危機就是轉機我非常敬佩我們委員的高瞻眼足的那因為的確面對挑戰我們怎麼樣除了解決危機以外我們是不是應該尋求創造更紮實的一個的一個工作包括譬如說我們國內的產業鏈的把它落實讓"},{"start":605.888,"end":632.878,"text":"我們就地生產就地行銷來自己可以光榮自己那當然我們也可以再利用這個機會是不是在將來在市場的分散方面也可以尤其在醫藥生技這個部分其實也必須要往這個方面來努力當然我們本身對於可能關稅影響的各種狀況我們必須要有各種應應的因素這個我們也都在都已經end了那至於說怎麼樣鼓勵我們"},{"start":634.946,"end":654.931,"text":"國內製藥的韌性是不是署署長簡單跟委員報告一下跟委員報告我們從這個短期跟長期來看那短期當然是在我們每年的藥價調整上面對於這個必要藥品品項那麼有國內製造三個品項以下的那麼我們那一年就不會調整它的藥價"},{"start":655.771,"end":682.045,"text":"所以就不會有越來越低的情形所以他不需要去跟大家share那個DET超過的部分這個是短期我們今年就已經開始這樣做了那其他的呢還包含鼓勵這個國產新藥所以如果是在全球首發或者是在其他世界上有發行兩年內在台灣製造的那我們也都有特殊的比照台灣首發的要價的那個優惠合價"},{"start":682.805,"end":694.7,"text":"那另外呢也對國內製造那麼過專利期那麼前兩張的這個這個學名藥呢我們給他等同於原廠藥的價格對都有實質的鼓勵OK 了解"},{"start":697.984,"end":722.711,"text":"那剛剛部長有提到這個生技產業其實我們知道2024年經濟部產業發展署有提出這個2024生技產業的白皮書裡面也說了一些相關的發展的類似部長不知道有沒有好去了解、關心包括有第二、第五點都有提到相關需要麻煩衛福部來做相關應用作為的地方"},{"start":723.231,"end":745.802,"text":"那我們也理解他也提到了這個所提到的政策建議的方向包括人才培育資料利用法源建立資料庫接軌國際資訊還有導入AI強化CDMO等等的這個關鍵原料物資組等等保證可能現在也沒有時間你再做報告所以我們是不是可以請"},{"start":747.563,"end":776.131,"text":"其實裡面 會在裡面給我們相關報告好沒問題跟委員報告一下其實裡面大部分都我們都在進行那我們會給我們進行的狀況會給委員報告是好 最難忘的就是剛剛有提到這些相關包括韌性的如何能夠讓台灣有很好的這個藥品的準備那陳先生也很關心他也說是不是能夠提供一個清單給大家做參考"},{"start":777.151,"end":801.89,"text":"不過我想要提醒的就是說這樣的清單有一些會不會牽扯到國安問題等等所以在提供這個清單的同時是不是要注意一些謝謝委員 這是專業的見解其實的確公告清單是一個有它不適合性除了說國安的問題以外 另外就是可能 如果你變成"},{"start":803.492,"end":811.279,"text":"變成不可期待的話那要價可能會被調高會面臨很大的衝擊所以我們在這個部分的確要很小心"}]}},{"id":"160354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4f366c91ba02c1d40f316f6363e53358e75aa7aeb25548b494fa46b23f99a9e655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:46:03 - 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事長也談過這個事情"},{"start":427.674,"end":456.227,"text":"他非常非常的為難,而且在票價部分我知道這次民航局把他壓低了不過如果流量正常的話,希望你們能夠賺到錢我們希望你這個做生意就是要賺錢嘛是不是沙頭生意有人做,虧本生意沒人做啊所以高董這邊您看看好不好如果一般我們在客流量非常穩定非常好這個最加費的誰?是我們國軍的防護服的人員這阿兵哥他們說回家的路太遠"},{"start":457.435,"end":466.229,"text":"好不容易現場議長我拜訪了華信拜訪了很多次然後那時候高董事長也是華信的董事長"},{"start":467.469,"end":487.029,"text":"郭東很多次他在謝董事長一直在逼他沒辦法的情況之下所以這個飛機飛了所以我希望能夠順利成功希望客人量夠的話能夠再多一班好不好尤其你飛機可以的話好謝謝高董事長你請回"},{"start":489.913,"end":517.239,"text":"何警長這邊還有上一次我問你北竿機場的停車場滾動式檢討你一個月現在開始啟動滾動式檢討了沒有請說明有關北竿機場的停車的使用情形我們現在先收集資料因為他從收費其實也才在三月這個三月二月三月中才開始那所以說基本上現在來講其實時間還不是太長"},{"start":517.899,"end":541.911,"text":"那當然之前委員有說明過就是說鄉親有一些反應希望在這個停車費率等等那當然這個整個我們還是需要收集一段時間的資料是啊我是說不要讓他成為文子館嘛我想對審計部我們也可以做一個交代了嘛我知道如果客人在裡面停車如果收費太低的話審計部會有意見我知道"},{"start":542.762,"end":566.611,"text":"那這個行政程序我們已經走完了,我是說希望能不能幫忙一下好不好,這個能夠做滾動式檢討這個部分我們會再來滾動檢討好另外,主席你請坐北竿機場興建,我上次問過北竿機場興建的騎乘已經啟動了嘛那航站的人員,你們北竿的航空站的人員不會撤吧"},{"start":568.074,"end":576.66,"text":"還有利隆,因為航站裡面包含消防班,還有利隆航空公司的人員因為我們現在要希望建議邊建邊飛,是不是這樣?"},{"start":581.498,"end":607.288,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們現在這個案子已經跟港公司這邊合作前面的維提、造地等等今年港公司這邊會來進行招標那招標完之後會做細設那細設的時間大概需要兩年多的時間所以真正的施工會落在118年那在這個細設的階段我們也會來評估整個機場的運作因為基本上它還是就是說它在細設要兩年喔"},{"start":608.868,"end":634.195,"text":"對 今年因為他比較複雜然後連施工一共七年嘛是不是沒有 施工是七年施工七年那我們如果邊飛邊建邊飛邊建這個就是尤其圍堤的部分 城鄉的部分這些不影響飛行安全的情況之下民航局往這個方向走好不好可行性你們現在要做未雨綢繆的評估好不好"},{"start":635.253,"end":664.696,"text":"要謝謝委員啦之前有多次的提醒在這個部分那這部分我們會再細說董事長你說明一下好不好我們港公司董事長跟委員報告一下目前這個工程我們在準備相關的前置作業那因為這個這個機場的話可能危體兆入的話可能有一些要鑽灘要什麼那個要把它做好免得說到時候做好以後會有呈現的問題所以相關的一些還有呈現的問題嘛因為他跑道的鋪面"},{"start":665.748,"end":695.288,"text":"我想時間應該兩年足夠了我們中正機場、松山機場碰面的速度應該很快你盡量朝著一邊飛一邊那個因為有一些有心人士我跟你講馬祖發生兩次空難我弟弟五口全部罹難前縣長楊孫生縣長也是另外一次空難裡面降落在海上所以這個機場一定要改建 部長是不是一定要改建"},{"start":696.178,"end":720.633,"text":"你不要等出了事,出了事再來做就來不及了這已經在做了你看我們全國的機場只有馬祖的兩座機場是個應該算是危險的機場危險的機場,它不是一個編制類的機場所以這個機場勢在必行好不好這個拜託部長還有我們局長、港公司這邊我們來共同努力因為他們講說"},{"start":723.686,"end":747.944,"text":"這個機場蓋了以後,有一些人員像消防班有一些人現在大家都希望錢多勢少離家近還有渡海到南竿去上班非常不方便所以我想借這個機會告訴我們鄉親沒有這個問題當然晚上夜間施工可能會造成一些噪音的問題等等這個我希望在下次交通委員會到馬祖考察的時候已經排定在五月十幾號"},{"start":749.105,"end":758.722,"text":"拜託局長這一些配套你請幕僚人員趕快做出來我們到那邊一併跟我們鄉親來說明好不好好謝謝部長謝謝我們董事長還有局長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時46分）謝謝召委。","請航空警察局廖局長。"],["主席：廖局長。"],["陳委員雪生：本席為什麼找廖局長，你知道嗎？民國78年本席在士林分局服務，他是本席的同事。廖局長，你是從警政署主任秘書職務調過來的嘛！"],["廖局長恆裕：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你調到航空警察局服務之後，有沒有遇到什麼困難？"],["廖局長恆裕：沒有困難，各位委員都非常支持，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：恭喜你。"],["廖局長恆裕：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：不過也拜託民航局何局長，還有機場公司董事長多關照，有什麼事情儘量配合協調，好不好？"],["廖局長恆裕：是。"],["陳委員雪生：好，你請回，沒事了。"],["廖局長恆裕：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：請交通部陳部長，還有談判辦公室副總代表顏小姐。"],["主席：好，陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長、副代表，現在川普揮關稅大刀砍向世界，據本席了解，臺灣總出口大概是4,750億美元，美國的部分是1,113億美元，進口的部分464億美元，出超大概739億美元。副代表，你有沒有注意到一件事？就是我們只注意到美國，有沒有注意到大陸？我們對大陸出口1,506億美元，進口806億美元，出超700億美元，金額和美國相距不遠。","美國的大刀指向我們的時候，你要注意到一件事，尤其是現在臺灣在反中。和美國親近是好事並不是壞事，但是要注意我們對大陸的貿易，因為他們等於也是給我們最惠國待遇，所以不要觸怒中共，這一點要小心。","本席的女婿是美國人，他回來時和本席聊天，本席問他對川普這個人的印象怎麼樣，他說還不錯啊！本席就說什麼還不錯？因為本席有點生氣了。他說你曉得嗎？川普最大的優點就是善變和說謊，他用善變和說謊砍向全世界以後，可以說穩賺不賠啊！","當初韓國瑜院長說貨出去、錢進來，不只人進來，錢也進來。但他不是耶！他今天用嘴巴一喊，你看所有股票都漲價了。所以你們談判的時候要注意，談判小組也要分析一下大陸的反應也很重要。你請回，沒事。","部長，現在利用小三通入境的大概只有一千多人，將近2,000人，本席再請問你一次，我們希望大陸鄉親到馬祖、金門或是臺灣觀光，歡迎還是不歡迎？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有政治前提之下都歡迎。"],["陳委員雪生：都歡迎？為什麼有一些媒體反對，好像大陸人對我們沒安好心呢？官方的立場是歡迎他們來嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：沒有政治前提之下都歡迎。"],["陳委員雪生：本席上一次質詢的時候曾經問過部長，你們要和各部會說一下，少一點刁難、少一點為難，金門、馬祖的部隊沒有多少人了，其實他們只要用漁船就能上岸。本席不是自己給自己漏氣啦！這方面請部長多和他們說一下，你們不要把老共說的那麼糟糕嘛！還一直反中。現在金門、馬祖很可憐耶！你看陳玉珍委員提出自貿區，臺灣有很多自貿港口，臺中、高雄、基隆、花蓮全部都是，但金門想成立自貿區港口就變成是要洗產地，臺灣這邊就不是洗產地嗎？所以我們觀念要多溝通，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：再和你談一下觀光的部分，周署長也上台了，這部分是不是請你們再加強一下？"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們芹壁那邊有很多廁所髒臭的不得了，尤其是5月份的觀光季要來了，請你們幫忙一下，好不好？"],["周署長永暉：這個部分我們來加強。"],["陳委員雪生：請針對那邊加強一下，也請風景管理處再幫忙一下，周署長請回。是不是請何淑萍局長？關於馬祖飛高雄航線，謝謝部長幫忙成全我們，這個航線非常不容易才爭取到，交通部、民航局施壓華信，本席也要謝謝中華航空公司高董事長，謝謝啦！但是我們馬祖老百姓質疑為什麼只飛一班？何局長，為什麼只飛一班？能不能說明一下？"],["何局長淑萍：謝謝委員垂詢。高雄飛南竿機場的航線，其實經過很長一段時間的爭取，關於這個航線，早期當然有它的歷史，現在是一週一班重新飛航。之前是從包機開始，我們培養了一段時間，現在要轉成定班的話就要有固定的旅客人數，所以華信就規劃每週先飛一班，而且是排在週五，這樣週五和週六、日可以串起來，而且也有臺北飛南竿的航線。所以就整體來看，我們先每週飛一班，培養客源到一定程度之後，再看市場狀況調整。"],["陳委員雪生：也就是說現在的客流量不太穩定嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員雪生：當然，中華航空公司的子公司華信，是一家股份有限公司，財務是獨立自主的，而且在商言商，如果沒有錢賺，不要說部長，就算院長去施壓也沒有用，是不是？它的股東會同意嗎？不會同意嘛！所以目前只能先飛一班。本席也和高董事長談過這個事情，他非常、非常的為難，而且在票價的部分，本席知道這次民航局把它壓低了，不過如果流量正常的話，還是希望你們能夠賺到錢啦！因為做生意就是要賺錢嘛！殺頭的生意有人做，虧本生意沒人做。","所以高董，您看這樣好不好？如果客流量非常穩定、非常好，這會嘉惠到誰？國軍金門防衛部的人員，阿兵哥說他們回家的路太遠了。這件事好不容易成功，縣長、議長和本席拜訪華信很多次，那時候高董事長也是華信的董事長，我們溝通了很多次，謝董事長也一直在逼他，在沒辦法的情況之下，這班飛機啟航了。本席希望能夠順利成功，如果客流量夠的話，之後能夠再多飛一班，如果飛機可以安排的話。謝謝高董事長，你請回。","何局長，上一次本席問你北竿機場停車場滾動式檢討的問題，你們開始啟動滾動式檢討了嗎？請說明。"],["何局長淑萍：有關北竿機場停車場的使用情形，我們現在是先蒐集資料，因為它是3月中才開始收費，基本上時間還不是太長。當然，之前委員有說明過，鄉親有一些反映，包括停車費率等等，不過我們還是需要蒐集一段時間的資料，委員……"],["陳委員雪生：是啊！本席是說不要讓它成為蚊子館。"],["何局長淑萍：是，了解，這個……"],["陳委員雪生：這樣對審計部也可以有所交代，本席知道如果這裡停車收費太低的話，審計部會有意見。這個行政程序已經走完了，本席希望你們能幫忙一下，這個部分能夠做滾動式檢討。"],["何局長淑萍：這個部分我們會再做滾動檢討。"],["陳委員雪生：好。另外，本席上次問過北竿機場新建的問題，北竿機場新建的期程已經啟動了嘛！至於航站的人員，你們北竿航空站的人員不會撤吧？而且航站裡面不含消防班，另外還有立榮航空公司的人員，我們是建議邊建邊飛。"],["何局長淑萍：因為這個案子已經和港務公司合作，前面的圍堤、造地等等，今年港務公司會進行招標，招標完之後會做細設，細設大概需要兩年多的時間，所以真正施工會落在118年。在細設的階段，我們也會評估整個機場的運作，因為它在施工……"],["陳委員雪生：細設要兩年？"],["何局長淑萍：對，因為它比較複雜。"],["陳委員雪生：細設加施工一共7年，是不是？"],["何局長淑萍：沒有，施工是7年。"],["陳委員雪生：如果邊飛邊建……"],["何局長淑萍：邊飛邊建就涉及到……"],["陳委員雪生：尤其是圍堤、沉箱的部分。在不影響飛行安全的情況之下，請民航局往這個方向走，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：是。我想這個部分……"],["陳委員雪生：你們現在就要未雨綢繆先做可行性評估，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：也要謝謝委員啦！之前有針對這個部分多次提醒，這個部分我們會再做細設。"],["陳委員雪生：請董事長說明一下，好不好？"],["李董事長賢義：目前這個工程正在準備相關的前置作業，因為這個機場的圍堤、造路，可能有一些地方要鑽探等等，這些都要把它做好，免得以後會有沉陷的問題，所以相關的……"],["陳委員雪生：還有沉陷的問題嘛！"],["李董事長賢義：對。"],["陳委員雪生：跑道的鋪面，本席認為兩年的時間應該足夠了啦！像中正機場、松山機場鋪面的速度應該很快啦！你們儘量朝一邊飛、一邊改建去做。本席告訴你，馬祖發生兩次空難，本席弟弟家五口全部罹難，前縣長楊綏生也是在另一次空難時降落海上，所以這個機場一定要改建。部長，是不是一定要改建？"],["陳部長世凱：對，已經在推進了。"],["陳委員雪生：你們不要等出事了再來做，這樣就來不及了。"],["陳部長世凱：這已經在做了。"],["陳委員雪生：你看我們全國的機場，馬祖這兩座機場應該算是危險的機場，而且不是編制內的機場，所以這個機場改建勢在必行，拜託部長、局長和港務公司，我們共同努力。這個機場蓋了以後，像消防班，因為現在大家都希望錢多事少離家近嘛！如果還要渡海到南竿去上班，真的非常不方便，所以本席想藉這個機會告訴鄉親，沒有這個問題。","當然，夜間施工可能會造成噪音問題等等，下次交通委員會到馬祖考察的時候，目前已經排定在五月十幾日，拜託局長，請幕僚人員趕快把配套方案做出來，我們到那邊一併向鄉親說明，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，謝謝董事長和局長，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。","特別向各位報告一下，如果要方便的話請自行前往，我們中午不休息，因為登記質詢的委員非常多，所以沒有辦法休息。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","葉元之","王美惠","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","陳冠廷","游顥","林宜瑾","邱志偉"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長、經濟部次長、\n外交部次長、財政部次長及行政院經貿談判辦公室就「美國課徵對等關稅對我國交通公私部門之\n衝擊與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00012"}}},{"id":"160290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a48470c6eecda27d23f316f6363e53358e75aa7aeb25548b499284dfcc574f75d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:59:05 - 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包括警察單位"},{"start":208.118,"end":232.593,"text":"整體的架構不是我們就能夠解決的啦那至少我們在發生這個問題之後我們一般大家都會認為說可能航空系統的管理好像感覺起來都會比港務系統來得嚴謹走私的機會比較高那可能會有一些系統性的問題那不曉得根本上有哪些差異到什麼管理上面可能在強度上面有落差那造成這些走私的問題"},{"start":234.08,"end":256.585,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所說的沒有錯啦不管是港或者是機場它的這個複雜度其實相對是高的啦尤其是港的部分其實船多人多那公司也不少那前一陣子確實有發生這個長榮海運現任跟離職的三個船員走私大麻毒品的這個事件那這個部分其實航港局也在3月25號有召開會議"},{"start":258.745,"end":281.407,"text":"長榮海運也好或者是相關的單位大家一起開會討論啦針對這個改善的方案一定要提出來因為我們現在已經看到問題了嘛那遇到的問題就想辦法去解決讓它以後不要再發生但我們應該是身為一個管理者應該是說我們看到制度上有沒有哪些要調整的地方有沒有我們自己有沒有內部監督至少我們航港局或者是港務公司如果說有"},{"start":282.108,"end":303.693,"text":"我們可以做得更好的話降低這個型案發生的機會我們自我檢討哪些部分可能是未來會去做調整的我請葉局長回答一下報告委員有關這個這個成員進出管制的門哨的這個加強管制的做法我很快跟委員報告我們短期就是必須要由傳東跟傳代他在"},{"start":304.853,"end":328.994,"text":"港公司的這個港區通行證的系統他去進行登錄之後登錄這個船員的身份資料之後這個船員才能夠申請他的通行證如果沒有經過船東跟船代的登錄他是不能自行申請以前可以就對了以前他可以自行申請以前可以自行申請那現在就類似有要找一個保證單位是的才能夠進來是的那這個部分已經在4月8號已經開始實行了"},{"start":331.897,"end":356.722,"text":"是所以就是人員進出的管制更加的嚴格這樣是是是好那還有其他的嗎其他部分就是登船管理的部分我們現在會加強要求那跟委員報告我們現在就是依照這個ISPS我們叫國際船舶港口保全的規定我們現在他在登船前必須這個船方必須要列印有個QR code"},{"start":357.222,"end":385.203,"text":"那也要把登船的這個人員的名冊要先在我們的QR Code系統要做登錄登船前這個登船人員要掃描QR Code那符合我們登船人員的名冊在名單內他才可以登船所以這個部分我們也建立了機制後續我們航港局在各航務中心都有加強查核的一個做法這部分我們也這都是針對人員嘛那如果港務公司的部分"},{"start":387.526,"end":412.975,"text":"包括那個航港局他有開過會所以我們都配合就是船東船大所以我們就是配合航港局的一個政策那另外一個就是我們請那個港警加強來查細那還有就是對我們港所在的相關的航商什麼我們加強宣導我們所有的人員進出會像機場因為我沒有進去過不好意思會進出會像這個機場一樣每個都有人員的X光機的檢查之類的嗎還是目視檢查"},{"start":416.087,"end":440.698,"text":"港區 他是牧市 都是牧市那所以車輛進出可能就是檢查這個有沒有違禁品之類的對 風行證那就是RFID那實務商為什麼沒有辦法做到像機場這樣子的一個比較嚴格的管制 是量太大了嗎還是以前他進出的話是人 就是他船員他有那個"},{"start":441.238,"end":450.182,"text":"那現在就是我們多一個保障就是船東船大這些遊船先卡位因為其實像我們這個機場會比較單純是因為我們都是人那我們人的進出就跟這個旅客進出一樣嘛就大家檢查那所有的貨物都有X光機的一個檢查那當然就是雙重的檢驗嘛那我們港務公司不然我們港港局或是說港務系統可能也是要"},{"start":466.568,"end":487.299,"text":"除了人的進出管制之外可能貨物的進出大家看是量能不足的部分可能需要海關那邊增加檢查量能之類等等的我都希望說我們當然發生事情的時候大家第一個部分可能會想到我們交通部但是需要其他單位配合的部分我們也必須要多一跨機關的來請求其他機關的一個協助這樣子啦好不好希望避免類似的案件再發生謝謝部長謝謝各位長官謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1006,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時59分）謝謝主席。一樣請陳部長，還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：陳部長、楊局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好、局長好。先和兩位確認一下地方軌道建設的進度，汐止的軌道建設有三個部分，其中一個部分目前正由地方政府修正計畫，就是臺北市民生段，這個部分我們先不提，另外應該有兩個計畫在交通部，一個是基隆捷運的基本設計，一個是汐東線的修正計畫。","這兩個計畫，本席知道行政院對於補助軌道建設的比例，可能會因為財劃法做一些調整，關於金額的部分，我們先不提啦！我們先就專業審核的部分討論，因為專業審核之後，才是由行政院訂補助比例。在專業審核的部分，基隆捷運的基本設計以及汐東捷運的修正計畫，交通部的審議進度怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請局長說明？"],["廖委員先翔：好。"],["楊局長正君：基隆捷運的基本設計，我們和新北市政府做過兩、三輪的溝通，現在已經初步梳理，正在進行程序當中。"],["廖委員先翔：是。所以大部分的障礙排除了？"],["楊局長正君：是的，大部分的障礙都排除了。但是經過交通部同意之後，還要送到工程會核定，才是最後的基本設計核定，接下來才可以發包。"],["廖委員先翔：這應該和財劃法沒有關係吧？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有預計的時程？今年有沒有辦法完成？交通部有沒有辦法設立一個目標？如果地方政府配合修正的話。"],["楊局長正君：我們儘量加速辦理。"],["廖委員先翔：好吧！上半年有機會嗎？"],["楊局長正君：繼續努力。"],["廖委員先翔：好啦！至少就您來看，應該是沒有太大的問題啦！"],["陳部長世凱：您一直非常關心這個議題，我們會儘量加速。"],["廖委員先翔：好。另外一個就是汐東捷運的修正計畫，預算規模大概從三百多億元調整到六百多億元，交通部的審核進度怎麼樣？"],["楊局長正君：這個部分現在局裡面還在和新北市政府捷運局做一些溝通，主要是涉及到八堵機場的經費分攤，我們會再和他們積極討論。"],["廖委員先翔：所以最大的問題在於八堵機廠的經費分攤？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：其他部分有沒有意見比較分歧的地方？或是地方政府認為應該要納到共同攤提的部分，但你們認為不需要。"],["楊局長正君：會有類似的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：好，後續可不可以把一些爭議項目整理一下，就是地方政府認為應該由中央和地方分攤，但中央認為應該由地方政府自籌，請你們整理一份資料，之後我們再來討論。"],["楊局長正君：好的，我們再向委員報告。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝局長。接下來請教一下航港局和港務公司。"],["主席：葉局長、李董事長。"],["廖委員先翔：不好意思，今天還是要和三位討論一下，先前發生長榮海運現職船員和離職船員走私毒品的問題。當然港的問題和機場一樣啦！一個機場裡面有很多單位，港裡面也有很多單位，包括海關、警察單位，整體的架構不是你們能夠獨立解決的，但是在發生這個問題之後，大家一般都認為航空系統的管理，感覺起來比港務系統嚴謹，走私的機會比較不高。可能會有一些系統性的問題，不曉得管理上有哪些差異？例如可能是強度上有落差，才會造成走私的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：您剛剛說的沒有錯啦！不管是港或者機場，其實它的複雜度相對來說是比較高的，尤其是港的部分，除了船多、人多，其實公司也不少。前一陣子確實有發生長榮海運現任和離職的三個船員走私大麻毒品的事件，這個部分航港局也在3月25日召開會議，和長榮海運及相關單位一起開會討論，針對改善的方案一定要提出來，因為我們現在已經看到問題了，遇到問題就要想辦法解決，讓它以後不要再發生。"],["廖委員先翔：但我們身為一個管理者，應該要看制度上有沒有哪些需要調整的地方？自己有沒有做內部檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個改善方案是不是能請局長……"],["廖委員先翔：至少航港局或者港務公司要注意，如果你們可以做的更好的話，就可以降低刑案發生的機會。有沒有自我檢討哪些部分，未來可能會做調整？"],["陳部長世凱：請葉局長回答一下。"],["葉局長協隆：有關船員進出管制門哨的加強管制作法，我很快地向委員報告，我們短期就是必須由船東和船代，在港務公司各個港區的通行證系統進行登錄，就是登錄這個船員的身分資料，之後這個船員才能夠申請通行證，如果沒有經過船東和船代的登錄，他是不能自行申請的。"],["廖委員先翔：以前可以？"],["葉局長協隆：以前他可以自行申請。"],["廖委員先翔：以前可以自行申請，現在就要找一個類似保證的單位才能夠進來。"],["葉局長協隆：是的，這個部分已經在4月8日開始施行。"],["廖委員先翔：所以人員進出的管制會更加嚴格？"],["葉局長協隆：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：好。還有其他的嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：其他就是登船管理的部分，我們也會加強要求。我們現在就是依照ISPS，就是國際船舶與港口設施保全章程的規定，他在登船前，船方必須列印一個QR Code，登船的人員名冊要先在我們的QR Code系統登錄，登船前登船人員要掃描QR Code，符合登船人員的名單才可以登船。這個部分我們也建立了機制，後續航港局在各航務中心都會加強查核，這部分我們也函請航商遵守。"],["廖委員先翔：這都是針對人員嘛！港務公司的部分？"],["李董事長賢義：因為航港局有開過會，所以我們都配合，就是船東、船代要做這件事。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是配合航港局的政策嘛！"],["李董事長賢義：另外就是請港警加強查緝。還有就是對我們港所在的相關航商等等加強宣導。"],["廖委員先翔：所有人員進出會像機場一樣管制嗎？因為本席沒有進去過，不好意思。進出時會像機場一樣，每個人都要經過X光機檢查之類的嗎？還是目視檢查？港區的部分。"],["李董事長賢義：它是目視。"],["廖委員先翔：都是目視，所以車輛進出就是檢查有沒有違禁品之類？"],["李董事長賢義：進出都要經過航警局檢查，要有RFID通行證。"],["廖委員先翔：實務上為什麼沒有辦法做到像機場這樣比較嚴格的管制？是量太大嗎？還是其他的原因？"],["李董事長賢義：以前進出是針對人的部分管制，就是船員，現在我們多一個保障，就是船東、船代要先登錄，要先卡位，這樣會多一個保障。"],["廖委員先翔：機場比較單純，因為都是人，人員進出就和旅客進出一樣需要檢查，所有的貨物都由X光機檢查，這就是雙重檢驗。航港局或者港務系統可能也需要思考，除了人員的進出管制之外，也要注意貨物的進出，如果有量能不足的部分，海關可能就需要增加檢查量能等等。當然發生事情的時候，大家第一個可能會想到交通部，但是需要其他單位配合的部分，也必須請求其他機關協助，好不好？本席希望能避免類似案例再發生。謝謝部長，謝謝各位長官。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","接下來請蔡其昌副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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因為這個反應是真的很好我很少看到有這麼多鄉親會主動來致電告訴我們這些對的政策那這是第一個部分那第二個部分我還是要再反映就是剛才蔡委員提到的在飯店的這個旅宿的時候現場拜託交談小聲一點因為我們陳委員在執行好不好謝謝趙委員"},{"start":137.072,"end":163.45,"text":"謝謝召集委員那我們再次再強調剛才蔡委員講的其實是蠻有道理的就是說比方說我們去其他國家來去旅遊的時候那我們露出他們的飯店那依照行程或者是依照他的這個套裝行程的不同可能會有不同不同類型的飯店通常他們都會提供最基本的這些衛浴洗漱用品"},{"start":164.17,"end":189.518,"text":"那我是希望說當然在環境我們對環保政策也非常重視但是兩鄉權衡的時候外國旅客他們對於交通上面整個飯店設施裡面的最基本的要求其實還是需要做到我發覺到說我們有些時候都會走比較極端的路線那看到我聽到一些日籍的旅客跟我們說奇怪他們入住一些台灣的五星級飯店結果"},{"start":191.243,"end":216.406,"text":"沒有牙刷牙膏那他們也覺得說這樣對觀光一定有必然的加分嗎我想這是一個問題啦那我們當然還是希望有鼓勵啊鼓勵環保政策但是基本的備品還是希望可以跟蔡委員剛才的這個說法一樣還是會希望說呃旅宿業者能夠提供齁在這個櫃台齁不主動提供但是如果有人索取的時候他應該要提供"},{"start":217.366,"end":234.054,"text":"對 這個是我們希望能夠做到的那再來就是針對國際海欄的部分那近一年初我們有跟這個部長質詢到說中華電信有沒有加入等等那現在我們在官網當中看到中華電信是被標記為Chinese Taipei"},{"start":234.694,"end":260.282,"text":"那是在C的序列而非慣例的T的序列我當然知道這個部分是可能一些國際上面有一些潛力但是我們希望說我們的潛力都是以T為主還是希望能夠在民意上面能夠全力替臺灣爭取我們應有的國際地位不知道這個可不可以請部長去解讀這個我們是不是請中華電信也自己看有沒有機會可以爭取啦那我們接下來這邊來講當然是也是支持這樣的說法謝謝我們最後一題就是針對這一個"},{"start":262.843,"end":289.765,"text":"中國灰色地帶干擾海運的部分那我們兩岸從2008年就有簽訂海峽兩岸海運協議那這個協議裡面我方已經開放13個港口那陸方開放55個海港和17個河港總共是72個港口那我們擔心說如果中國片面或變相干擾這個海運的協議的直航安排或者是中國特定的港口航線那我們有沒有實際演練有沒有做好一些民間的溝通機制等等"},{"start":291.567,"end":318.199,"text":"這個部分我們跟各部會其實都有討論那實際的演練應該因為時間已經過了所以我也不好意思耽誤大家的時間那是不是給我們書面來跟我們簡單的報告一下這個沒問題那包含就是像是中國對立陶宛他們等國在外交震盪的時候他有延遲清關增加檢疫程序刪除航班時段等等這些麻煩都把這些演練的狀況跟我們講一下好沒問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1622,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（14時）我們請交通部部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好！我特別要跟部長反映的就是上次質詢完後，針對觀光列車到我們西部嘉義，鄉親們的反應非常好，這個部分我也在此對臺鐵表示鄉親們對這個計畫的支持，希望臺鐵能夠全力去推動這個套裝行程。其實不僅是我們鄉親，我們還接到滿多電話，還有一些記者也對這個計畫非常有興趣，是不是可以請部長未來幫我們加強對這部分的關心，希望能督促臺鐵一定要把我們嘉義納入？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分在委員上次質詢後已經有進度了，未來應該會儘量讓嘉義縣市包含在內，畢竟嘉義縣的觀光資源相當的多，如果可以結合臺鐵的觀光鐵道活動的話，我認為是會有加成的效果，這個部分其實觀光署也會努力來推動，不止是臺鐵，連森林鐵道的部分我們也會一起來努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是從平原區的大林、民雄，過去的所謂創生計畫也好，結合他們的歷史文資、古蹟，最新的其實還有包含大林有一些城堡區、一些產業再加上文創等等，如果能夠把這些都納入臺鐵套裝行程裡面的話，會有非常大的助益。在這部分，如果臺鐵能有什麼進度，可不可以跟我們辦公室知會一下？這個要麻煩部長，因為這個的反應是真的很好，我很少看到有這麼多鄉親會主動來電告訴我們一些對的政策，這是第一個部分。","第二部分我要反映的就是剛才蔡委員提到的，在飯店留宿的時候……"],["主席：拜託現場交談小聲一點，因為我們陳委員正在質詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝召集委員！我再強調一下，剛才蔡委員講的其實是滿有道理的，比方我們去其他國家旅遊，入住他們的飯店，依照行程或者是依照套裝行程的不同，可能會入住不同類型的飯店，通常他們都會提供最基本的這些衛浴洗漱用品，當然我們對環保政策也非常重視，但是兩相權衡的時候，對於外國旅客他們在交通上面、整個飯店設施的最基本要求其實還是需要做到，我發現到我們有些時候都會走比較極端的路線，我聽到一些日籍的旅客反映說他們入住一些臺灣的五星級飯店，奇怪的是居然沒有牙刷、牙膏，他們也覺得說這樣對觀光一定有必然的加分嗎？我想這是一個問題。我們當然還是希望鼓勵環保政策，但是在基本的備品這部分，還是希望可以跟蔡委員剛才的說法一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：我們還是希望旅宿業者能提供，雖然不主動提供，但能夠放在櫃台，如果有人索取的時候，他應該要提供。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，這個是我們希望能夠做到的。","再來就是針對國際海纜的部分，今年年初我們也有質詢部長有關中華電信有沒有加入等等問題，現在我們在官網中看到中華電信是被標記為Chinese Taipei，被列在C的序列而非慣例的T的序列，我當然知道這個部分可能在國際上有一些前例，但是我們希望我們的前例都是以T為主，還是希望能夠在名義上全力替臺灣爭取我們應有的國際地位，不知道這個可不可以請部長重視？"],["陳部長世凱：這個是不是請中華電信自己也看看有沒有機會可以爭取，對我們來說當然也是支持這樣的說法。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後一部分就是針對中國灰色地帶干擾海運的部分，我們兩岸從2008年就有簽訂海峽兩岸海運協議，在這個協議裡面，我方已經開放13個港口，陸方開放55個海港和17個河港，總共是72個港口，我們擔心的是如果中國片面或變相干擾這個海運協議的直航安排或者是中國特定的港口航線，我們有沒有實際演練，有沒有做好一些民間的溝通機制等等？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們跟各部會其實都有討論，實際的演練應該……"],["陳委員冠廷：因為發言時間已經超過了，我也不好意思耽誤大家的時間，是不是可以用書面來跟我們簡單的報告一下？"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：包含像是中國對立陶宛等國在外交政策上有延遲清關、增加檢疫程序、刪除航班時段等等，麻煩都把這些演練的狀況跟我們講一下。謝謝！"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在。","以上登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及答詢完畢；二、本會游顥委員、林宜瑾委員、邱志偉委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報；三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未答詢之部分，請交通部及相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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水都沒有提供了那你們聽到的聲音是怎樣"},{"start":42.399,"end":65.369,"text":"當然網路上的話看到當然很多的民眾是不太習慣那不過我看環境部他們自己有做一個民調那支持的比例很像也沒有太低當然有些反對的人不過一般來說確實對民眾來說他在住飯店的過程當中他過去的習慣是有提供現在沒有提供對他來講會是一個小困擾是的市長部長我跟你說"},{"start":66.63,"end":82.109,"text":"我們的台灣的一個觀光業的一個發展大家會多拿我們來比較會拿什麼國家大概是日本或者是或韓國因為現在很多人會到韓國去事實上韓國跟日本的旅館他們沒有在房間提供"},{"start":83.161,"end":100.808,"text":"沒有在房間提供他們在樓下的櫃檯有需要的人自己拿我覺得這也是一種另類的一個方式那這個方式至少讓大家覺得說對我們站在一個環保我們減塑減少塑膠用品的一個出發點這個出發點是好的"},{"start":102.429,"end":125.481,"text":"但是畢竟你在經營這種觀光你有收一些小便民一些方便的東西如果是存在的話對於整個觀光的評價是好的因為我們不希望說台灣就說我們要發展我們的一個觀光產業那我們當然希望做到很多細節大家都覺得我們有夠貼心來這裡玩非常的舒服"},{"start":126.321,"end":147.429,"text":"結果我光要買個洗臉的工具買個牙刷我可能要找好遠我要去附近找超商雖然台灣超商的密集度很多可是如果比較偏鄉的地方他是沒有的比較偏鄉的地方沒有所以就沒有提供如果他自己沒有帶的話就沒有這些用品了"},{"start":148.4,"end":157.827,"text":"所以我想這個政策的推動環境部出發點是好的但是站在我們交通部我們觀光署這個對我們的觀光真的好嗎確實這個我們觀光署也為了這個案"},{"start":164.211,"end":185.511,"text":"這個政策的推動也相當的辛苦那目前我們也有跟所有的這個飯店業者的工協會也都有聯繫請他們盡量跟像委員剛剛建議的那個日本的模式是一樣的就是說在櫃檯的部分我們可以免費讓大家來索取這樣子的一次性的這個備品那這個部分我們有通令下去也有請工協會進行推動"},{"start":186.832,"end":208.123,"text":"因為我接到的一些業者他告訴我說基本上也沒辦法允許這樣嘛提供一次性就是說在一個服務台服務台可以免費取用如果他自己刻意的去做特別精品的部分他是可以賣的對是這樣子"},{"start":209.404,"end":232.416,"text":"當然啦 賣是換賣我現在是說的是指我要取得這一些一次性的這一些備品的話這是服務項目的一部分嘛因為本來就希望能夠貼心的服務但是因為我們不主動提供所以是在服務台或是他在櫃台那邊附近是可以我們也鼓勵飯店業還是維持提供這樣一個服務我覺得這個應該飯店業再溝通啦"},{"start":235.177,"end":260.056,"text":"跟飯店在溝通因為我們有時候站在台灣發展觀光的考量不能說我們政策怎樣我們就是硬梆梆的就跟著政策走我們會盡量做到更落實啦我們既然要做觀光就是要做到面面俱到嘛就是要做到說來晚的人覺得哇受到很尊榮的照顧很尊榮的享受這個我覺得以觀光產業我們這一點真的再檢討一下好不好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1600,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時55分）謝謝主席！有請部長跟觀光署署長。"],["主席：陳部長、周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長跟署長，我想要請教的是環境部在2023年公告限制使用一次性的旅宿用品，所以旅館業者在2025年也就是今年開始不提供一次性的用品，比方說牙刷、刮鬍刀甚至是礦泉水，請問對此你們聽到的聲音是怎樣？"],["陳部長世凱：在網路上看到的當然是有很多民眾表示不太習慣，不過我看環境部他們自己做的民調，支持的比例好像也沒有太低，當然也是有一些反對的人，不過一般來說，民眾在住飯店的過程當中，過去的習慣是有提供而現在沒有提供，對他來講會是一個小困擾。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長我跟你說，事實上對我們臺灣觀光業的發展，大家多半會拿什麼國家來比較？大概是日本或者是韓國，因為現在很多人會到韓國去，事實上韓國跟日本的旅館是沒有在房間提供用品的。"],["陳部長世凱：他們是在樓下的櫃台有提供。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他們是放在樓下的櫃台，有需要的人自己拿，我覺得這也是一種另類的方式，這個方式至少讓大家覺得我們是站在一個環保的、減少塑膠用品的出發點，這個出發點是好的，但是畢竟你是在經營觀光，有時候一些小小的便民措施，如果有一些方便的東西存在的話，對於整個觀光的評價是好的，我們說臺灣要發展觀光產業，那當然希望要在很多細節上做到讓大家覺得我們有夠貼心，來這裡玩非常的舒服，結果光是要買個洗臉的工具、買個牙刷就可能要找好遠，可能要去附近找超商，雖然臺灣超商的密集度很高，可是如果在比較偏鄉的地方是沒有的喔！所以如果旅宿業者沒有提供，旅客自己又沒有帶的話，就沒有這些用品可用了。所以我想這個政策的推動，環境部出發點是好的，但是站在我們交通部、觀光署的立場，這個對我們的觀光真的好嗎？部長是否要對此多思考一下？"],["陳部長世凱：我們觀光署為了這個政策的推動確實也相當的辛苦，目前我們也有跟所有飯店業者的公協會聯繫，請他們儘量如同委員剛剛建議的那個日本模式一樣，就是在櫃台可以免費讓大家來索取這樣子的一次性備品，這個部分我們有通令下去，也有請公協會儘量配合。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們有通令嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們有發文。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為有一些業者告訴我說基本上也沒辦法允許這樣嘛！提供一次性，就是說在一個……"],["周署長永暉：在服務台可以免費取用，如果業者自己刻意的做特別精品的部分，是可以賣的。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦，那是販賣的部分，我是說要取得這些一次性備品的部分。"],["周署長永暉：這是服務項目的一部分，因為本來就希望能夠貼心的服務，但是因為我們不主動提供，所以是在服務台或是在櫃台附近可以自己取用，我們也鼓勵飯店業還是維持提供這樣的一個服務。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這個還要跟飯店業者再溝通，因為站在臺灣發展觀光的考量，不能說政策怎樣我們就硬邦邦的跟著政策走。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會儘量做到更落實。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們既然要發展觀光，就要做到面面俱到，就要做到讓來玩的人覺得受到很尊榮的照顧、很尊榮的享受，我覺得就觀光產業而言，我們要對這一點再檢討一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝我們蔡易餘委員。","王育敏委員、王育敏委員、王育敏委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","現在請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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我要先講一下 我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久賴世保 你不能稍微約束一下是 好再提醒一下賴世保委員好 謝謝主席有請莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長好 那個我們那個莊部長 江次長委員好"},{"start":31.089,"end":60.849,"text":"部長好 部長那個中國啤酒傾銷衝擊到台啤的員工的生計台啤公會來跟我澄清從竹南烏日散化的員工數從減少了三成到四成所以它的產業的衝擊傾銷造成市場被侵佔的情況底下是非常嚴重的現在我們在談席產地也有可能會被席產地我們可能看起來我們好像是加害者其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者"},{"start":61.89,"end":76.469,"text":"所以這個問題你們要去面對這個問題的過程當中應該從兩頭思考我們不要成為加害者我們也不要成為被害者中國啤酒就是這種狀況啊你們現在的反省銷調查現在什麼時候做出認定產業認定的部分經濟部什麼時候"},{"start":78.663,"end":100.615,"text":"不知道6月底本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定喔已經調查了已經在調查了那延長到什麼時候才要完成沒有延長就按照我們規定的一個進程沒有延長啊經濟部在認定我們請經濟部認定要快一點啦好不好"},{"start":101.315,"end":126.622,"text":"是我們在進行損害市長你可能不清楚但是回去多了解一下再加快已經明明對台灣的產業已經造成這麼大的傷害這很明顯中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法把台灣的消費市場腹地化把台灣的消費市場內地化不只是消費市場而已還有製造市場的部分你去看江市長你曉不曉得啊越南的部分有沒有在做不鏽鋼線啊"},{"start":129.073,"end":151.41,"text":"美國商務部的DOC調查過 越南的不鏽鋼線其實使用是南韓進口的原料生產就我去了解過業者越南也沒有做不鏽鋼線的一個廠商那為什麼有高達一萬五千多噸從2023年到了這個2024年一萬八千多噸到現在三一季已經佔了15%都從越南進來的喔"},{"start":156.684,"end":181.228,"text":"都從雲南進來囉所以台灣的產業有多大的衝擊而且還有一個那個部長這不是經濟部的事情而已經濟部我看一副狀況外還在看那些數字你看我們就是因為這樣子的情況底下我們是被害者進口產地的時候彭署長在後面有沒有加上一個進口的產地證明"},{"start":185.089,"end":212.927,"text":"報告委員那個進口產地要不要付產證那個別的貨物都有不同的規定對 就我知道有些產品就類似這不鏽鋼線的部分是不用的是不用的所以說越南進來你就是以為越南做 不是越南根本沒有那個產你沒有個產品溯源的機制嘛對啊結果搞了半天它越南是被洗產地的洗了產地越南成為加害者台灣的業者變受害者"},{"start":214.229,"end":236.426,"text":"主長你要去了解你要透過這種加入一個進口審查產地的證明才能夠避免台灣的產業被加害者同意嗎同意要去加強還有現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢這種就等於製造市場的被內地化"},{"start":237.686,"end":261.75,"text":"這樣的情況底下齁 我跟你講情況要請那個部長還有經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組你們看起來我們被我們起產地好像我們是加害者其實我們被害者的項目我們才一併的要去調查啊部長有沒有同意不是這個不修剛線而已啊其他的處長剛剛有講很多都是不用付的你根本不清楚"},{"start":263.356,"end":273.624,"text":"不清楚就在那經濟部你要保護產業對不對台灣的產業對不對你要保護員工的就業就業機會對不對這樣的情況底下你們要不要組一個調查清楚來調查清楚兩位"},{"start":275.752,"end":297.34,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來把這個事情來做一個好的處理避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化消費市場被內地化製造市場被內地化還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都會被內地化那個莊部長我再讓你看一個數字最近大家有在討論這個電商的問題"},{"start":299.481,"end":326.104,"text":"這中國電商也有傾銷的問題這傾銷的數字我讓你看一下中國從2022年到2024年因為他用低價傾銷什麼方式就補助運費嘛99塊以下的人民幣不用運費的情況底下這種變相的低價傾銷的方式以至於讓他的整個市佔率高達64.4%而且你如果再加上香港再加上澳門"},{"start":327.83,"end":350.597,"text":"整個進口的這一個電商的部分港中澳中港澳加起來超過八成八 將近九成這也是很清楚的把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果嘛這會影響到什麼 影響到消費市場 影響到製造市場啊這非常嚴重啊"},{"start":352.318,"end":365.124,"text":"所以你去看類似這一種變相的這種補貼的方式達到低價傾銷的一個目的的這種做法我要請問一下你有沒有類似反傾銷制裁方式 有沒有"},{"start":367.247,"end":386.733,"text":"部分因為都是小的包裹不同的消費者這個部分然後他的貨品也很分散大部分什麼生活上的一些小東西或者是小的家電之類的這個部分那當然這個部分所謂的第一個是小包裹的量快速成長而且透過我們的海運快遞進來你現在在描述現狀我在問你如何解決問題你一直在描述現狀"},{"start":391.255,"end":418.031,"text":"現階段來說我們的免稅額度是兩千元這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化其他的國家沒有這種低價請銷的情況有低價請銷的中國就把它降為一千或者其他國家有低價請銷我們要把它降為一千有沒有可能是委員這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮這個部分本來就是目前我們在你們要納入計畫喔這要差別待遇因為要用這種方式遏止這種不當的請銷嘛對不對"},{"start":420.733,"end":426.336,"text":"對國內的產業也會受到傷害我同意委員的觀點你知道淘寶在幾年前一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭只有三次要進入投審會都沒有通過就他轉個彎用什麼方式他用下一個廣告公司"},{"start":445.526,"end":460.25,"text":"用廣告公司來達到營運的事實啊就是廣告公司營運的事實的情況底下你知道嗎這種廣告公司進來這又是100%由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的叫香港這個淘寶國際產業結果呢他在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊"},{"start":466.36,"end":483.087,"text":"那你完全拿他沒轍嗎結果你知道嗎這會變成什麼早期有一段時間我們的這個電商的各自外流就達成詐騙犯案的結果嘛所以這裡頭有牽扯到各自的管理還有牽扯到什麼因為違禁商品上架的問題你完全沒有辦法管理他"},{"start":484.95,"end":500.973,"text":"市長 這問題要怎麼處理第一個 你要去思考這個各自的問題要去跟速發部來做個協調總共有高達多少我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅的商品高達3337萬個比我們人口數還多1000萬如果以六次滿額來計算的話你至少有556萬人來使用淘寶"},{"start":512.045,"end":535.094,"text":"就確診到各自的人數是如此之多喔市長這非常嚴重喔你要怎麼處理我們會跟數位部來做不是數發部處理而已你不是跟數發部講而已還要跟他講你要如何落地監管的問題嘛他等於繞個彎不經過你的投審思嘛對不對這種情況底下是不是要考慮廢止淘寶國際產業的這個投資許可"},{"start":538.274,"end":557.939,"text":"我們核准淘寶因為它是電子資訊服務業就是如同剛才委員所說的它去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告其實我們經濟部已經對於這家公司進行了相關的裁罰相關的裁罰不夠啦對不對它的盈利這麼大你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少"},{"start":559.178,"end":582.488,"text":"我們而且呢除了這個以外我們也要求他要改正如果沒有改正呢如果連續的情況底下他明明就是這樣營業的方式啊他是繞個彎啊你必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對啦否則的話你就落地你這個投審會的功能就不在啦就等被架空啊不是嗎必要的時候我們可以要求他撤資好必要的時候要求撤資我就等你這句話好最後一個部分齁那個"},{"start":584.332,"end":611.266,"text":"你知道那個部長上一次有關於這個Anytech的部分新加坡的這個資金很難辨識他進來以後變化股權香港更難辨識這種香港更難辨識的情況底下有一些進來之後的這個部分的資金的資本屬性的轉化的過程當中有沒有可能一個至親的機制那個次長這個部分我要請你跟那個陸委會溝通一下因為今天陸委會沒有來"},{"start":612.847,"end":626.986,"text":"也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定以前港澳資基本上我們把它視為外資還把它視為第三地喔對不對可是現在隨著港澳內地化的情況底下中國的屬性越來越高這資本屬性應該是不同"},{"start":628.027,"end":643.661,"text":"這種不同的情況底下他隱含的就是中資的色彩未來越高嘛那這個部分你有沒有可能以前以港資澳資澳資進來的這些人你要求他類似像陸配一樣自清一下說我呢基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權有沒有可能那個次長"},{"start":644.622,"end":671.071,"text":"有的我們對於這些業者其實都要他們來做切結我們也很擔心是假外資真中資的情形所以這個部分現在有進行切結然後未來在股權變動的時候我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動從現在開始要求起我們已經開始了最根本的方式你們應該跟陸委會講清楚港澳條例該改要改"},{"start":672.861,"end":678.894,"text":"港澳之間的這個資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下我們要把它視為中資來看待你同不同意"},{"start":679.847,"end":702.637,"text":"是 我們再跟陸委會來進行相關討論好好 最後我再請那個部長說一下因為天然災害的結果有很多青龍的權益也受損 沒有收入天然災害的結果然後有一些資金的一些貸款的部分請部長好好思考一下該優惠應該有優惠 該展期應該讓它展期請那個部長回去思考一下好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝郭委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":413,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時6分）主席，我要先講一下，我每次在賴委員後面都等了很久，能不能稍微約束一下？"],["主席：好，會再提醒一下賴士葆委員。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝主席。有請莊部長還有彭署長以及江次長。"],["主席：請莊部長、江次長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，中國啤酒傾銷，衝擊到台啤員工的生計，台啤工會來跟我陳情，從竹南、烏日到善化，員工數減少了三成到四成，所以對它產業的衝擊，即洗產地、傾銷造成市場被侵占的情況是非常嚴重的。","現在我們在談洗產地，但也有可能會被洗產地，看起來我們好像是加害者，其實某個程度我們也是中國的被害者，所以你們在面對這個問題的過程當中，應該從兩頭來思考，我們不要成為加害者，也不要成為被害者，中國啤酒就是這種狀況，你們現在的反傾銷調查什麼時候要做出產業認定？經濟部，什麼時候？不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：6月底，我們的目前……"],["郭委員國文：本來初步調查是4月20號要做出認定。"],["莊部長翠雲：已經在調查了。"],["郭委員國文：要延長到什麼時候才要完成？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是按照我們規定的進程，目前並沒有延長。"],["郭委員國文：是經濟部在認定，所以請經濟部認定要快一點，好不好？"],["江次長文若：是，我們在進行損害……"],["郭委員國文：次長，你可能不清楚，但是回去多了解一下，這要加快！明明已經對台灣產業造成這麼大的傷害，這很明顯，就是中國想要透過這種傾銷的手法，把台灣的消費市場腹地化、把台灣的消費市場內地化，不只是消費市場而已，還有製造市場的部分。江次長曉不曉得，越南有沒有在做不鏽鋼線？美國商務部（DOC）曾調查過，越南的不鏽鋼線其實是進口南韓的原料來生產；就我向業者進行了解的，越南也沒有什麼廠在做不鏽鋼線，那為什麼進口高達一萬五千多噸？2023年有一萬五千多噸；到了2024年有一萬八千多噸；到現在1到3季占比已有15%，都是從越南進來的，都從越南進來了，所以對台灣的產業有多大的衝擊！","而且還有一個，部長，這不是經濟部的事情而已，我看經濟部一副就是狀況外，還在看那些數字，其實在這樣子的情況底下，我們是被害者。彭署長，進口產地的時候，有沒有要加上進口的產地證明？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，關於進口產地要不要附產證，個別的貨物都有不同的規定。"],["郭委員國文：對，就我所知，有些產品像不鏽鋼線就是不用的。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以從越南進來，你就以為是越南做的，不是！越南根本沒有生產那個，可是因為你沒有一個產品溯源的機制嘛！結果搞了半天，越南是被用來洗產地的，洗了產地，越南成為加害者，台灣的業者變成受害者。署長、部長，你要去了解，你要透過這種附上一個進口產地的審查證明，才能夠避免台灣的產業變成被害者，同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：同意。"],["郭委員國文：好，既然同意就要去加強。還有，現在這種狀況嚴重到什麼程度呢？這樣就等於製造市場的被內地化，在這樣的情況底下，我跟你講，要由經濟部跟財政部組成一個調查小組，看起來我們洗產地就好像我們是加害者，其實對於我們是被害者的項目也要一併去調查，部長同不同意？並不是只有不鏽鋼線而已，像署長剛剛也有講，很多都是不用附的，你根本就不清楚。站在經濟部的立場，你要保護台灣的產業對不對？你要保護員工的就業機會對不對？請問兩位，在這樣的情況底下，你們要不要組一個調查小組來調查清楚？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的提示，針對這個部分我們會和經濟部一起來對這個事情做一個好的處理。"],["郭委員國文：要避免台灣的製造市場也被內地化──消費市場被內地化、製造市場被內地化，還有一種是消費市場跟製造市場同時都被內地化。莊部長，我再讓你看一個數字，最近大家有在討論電商的問題，中國電商也有傾銷的問題，我讓你看一下傾銷的數字。中國從2022年到2024年用低價傾銷，採什麼方式？就是補助運費，滿人民幣99塊就不用運費，變相的用這種低價傾銷的方式，以致於讓它的整個市占率高達64.4%。而且如果再加上香港、再加上澳門，整個電商進口的部分，中、港、澳加起來超過八成八，將近九成，這是很清楚地把台灣的消費市場內地化的一個結果，這會影響到什麼？會影響到消費市場、影響到製造市場，這非常嚴重啊！你去看這種採變相的補貼方式以達到低價傾銷目的的作法，我要請問一下，你有沒有類似反傾銷的制裁方式？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分因為都是小的包裹，然後是不同的消費者，而且貨品也很分散，大部分是生活上的一些小東西或者是小家電之類的，在這個部分第一個是小額包裹的數量快速成長，而且透過我們的海運快遞進來；第二個部分還有……"],["郭委員國文：你現在在描述現狀，我是在問你如何解決問題，你卻一直在描述現狀。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道……"],["郭委員國文：以現階段來說，我們的免稅額度是2,000元對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個部分我們會……"],["郭委員國文：這個部分有沒有可能差別待遇化？其他的國家沒有這種低價傾銷的情況？對於有低價傾銷的中國就降為1,000，或者如果其他的國家有低價傾銷，我們也要把它降為1,000，有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，對於委員所說的這個方向我們也會納入一起考慮，這個部分目前我們本來就是在審慎地研議當中。"],["郭委員國文：你們要納入計畫喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們納入考量。"],["郭委員國文：這要有差別待遇，要用這種方式遏止這種不當的傾銷，對不對？你同意嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，國內的產業也會受到傷害……"],["郭委員國文：你同意嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我同意委員的觀點，但是對作法我們會再來研議。"],["郭委員國文：那我再問一下經濟部，淘寶在幾年前就一直想要進入台灣的市場裡頭，結果3次要進入，可是投審會都沒有通過，對不對？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["郭委員國文：結果它轉個彎用什麼方式？它用一個廣告公司來達到營運的事實，在用廣告公司營運的情況底下，你知道嗎？這種廣告公司進來，是百分之百由阿里巴巴集團所投資設立的，就叫香港淘寶國際產業，結果它在這邊一樣達到營運的事實啊！你完全拿它沒轍嗎？你知道這樣會變成怎麼樣？在早期有一段時間我們電商的個資外流，就產生詐騙泛濫的結果嘛！所以這裡頭有牽扯到個資的管理，還有牽扯到一些違禁商品上架的問題，你完全沒有辦法管理它，次長，這個問題要怎麼處理？第一個，你要去思考個資的問題，要去跟數發部來做協調，總共高達多少？我們2024年從中國進口的小額免稅商品高達3,337萬個，比我們人口數還多1,000萬，如果以6次滿額來計算的話，至少有556萬人使用淘寶，所以牽扯到個資的人數是如此之多，次長，這非常嚴重喔！你要怎麼處理？"],["江次長文若：是，我們會跟數位部來做……"],["郭委員國文：你不是只跟數發部講這個而已，還要跟它講要如何落地監管的問題。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["郭委員國文：它等於是繞個彎不經過你的投審司，對不對？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["郭委員國文：在這種情況底下，是不是要考慮廢止這個淘寶國際產業的投資許可？"],["江次長文若：我們核准淘寶，因為它是電子資訊服務業，就如同剛才委員所說的，它在去年雙11的時候有做了相關的廣告，其實我們經濟部已經對這家公司進行了相關的裁罰。"],["郭委員國文：相關的裁罰不夠啦！對不對？它的營業額這麼大，你的行政裁罰能夠裁罰多少？"],["江次長文若：除了這個以外，我們要求它要改正。"],["郭委員國文：如果沒有改正呢？如果在連續發生的情況底下，它明明就是用這樣的營業方式，就是繞個彎啊！你在必要的時候應該要廢止許可才對。"],["江次長文若：我們會納入考慮。"],["郭委員國文：否則你們投審會的功能就不在了，就等於被架空了，不是嗎？"],["江次長文若：在必要的時候我們可以要求它撤資。"],["郭委員國文：好，必要的時候要求撤資，我就等你這句話。好，最後一個部分，上一次關於AnyTech的部分，就是新加坡的資金很難辨識，因為它進來以後變化股權，香港的資金更難辨識，在這種香港資金更難辨識的情況底下，有一些在進來之後資本的屬性轉化了，在這個過程當中有沒有可能建立一個自清的機制？次長，這個部分我要請你跟陸委會溝通一下，因為今天陸委會沒有來。也就是中資的認定要怎麼認定，以前基本上我們把港澳資視為外資，還把它視為第三地，對不對？可是現在隨著港澳的內地化，在這種情況底下，中國的屬性越來越高，資本屬性應該是不同，在這種不同的情況底下，它隱含的就是中資的色彩越來越高，關於這個部分，對以前以港資、澳資進來的這些人，你有沒有可能要求他像陸配一樣自清說自己基本上沒有受到中資的實質控制權？次長，有沒有可能？"],["江次長文若：有的，我們對於這些業者其實都有要他們來做切結，因為我們也很擔心是假外資、真中資的情形，所以這個部分也會要求……"],["郭委員國文：現在有進行切結？"],["江次長文若：然後未來在股權變動的時候，我們也會要求這些外資如果有任何股權的變動，都要跟我們……"],["郭委員國文：從現在就開始要求。"],["江次長文若：我們已經開始了。"],["郭委員國文：開始了？"],["江次長文若：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，最根本的方式是你們應該要跟陸委會講清楚，港澳條例該改就要改，在港澳的資本屬性已經中資化的情況底下，我們要把它視為中資來看待，你同不同意？"],["江次長文若：是，我們再跟陸委會來進行相關的討論。"],["郭委員國文：好。最後，我再請部長說明一下，天然災害導致很多青農的權益受損，沒有收入，這是天然災害的結果，關於一些資金貸款的部分，請部長好好思考一下，該優惠就應該要有優惠、該展期就應該要展期，請部長回去思考一下，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：好，謝謝郭委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請賴委員惠員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160286","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfa7ad400daf32fec7f316f6363e53358e2021fb25ab74fd83c7ebe4e63c7622145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請部長好 交通部陳部長辛苦了"},{"start":13.82,"end":34.362,"text":"委員好部長好當原民會他的一個數據告訴我們在前幾年原住民的人口有50%以上已經移居到渡輝地區的時候這種大眾運輸工具對我們來講就很重要那我們有很多的族人每次要返鄉"},{"start":35.843,"end":59.517,"text":"他就必須要透過各種不同的交通工具甚至是船飛機等等但是呢住在花東的他們的人口很多他們住在花蓮台東的原住民有17萬多那甚至是花東的整個人口呢有53萬多那這麼多的人尤其是原住民經常基於返鄉需求"},{"start":60.578,"end":73.175,"text":"我現在要說的是當台鐵的車票漲價的時候我們就會很辛苦那我覺得西部他可能還有其他的交通工具可以用可是對花東來講"},{"start":75.049,"end":98.949,"text":"南迴縣來講他就是只有火車可以用所以對他的影響衝擊很大特別您要知道我們宜居都會區返鄉的時候不是我個人返鄉啊我要帶我的老公啊帶我的小孩啊帶阿公阿嬤啊就是一堆人一起返鄉那這個往返當中一天多個幾百塊那一個月不得了"},{"start":100.191,"end":113.649,"text":"所以在這個部分我就是特別想要請教說有沒有可能沿你花東線甚至南回線這種被迫只能接受台鐵做交通工具的部長您怎麼看"},{"start":114.489,"end":132.129,"text":"報告委員 兩個部分我們來處理一個部分是說如果他是花東的居民不管是不是原住民的身份我們都會提供一個比較彈性的票價給他就是一方面我們會用打折的方式那二方面像您剛剛所提到時常必須要往返"},{"start":132.569,"end":160.781,"text":"那我們就會建議他也加入台鐵的這個會員我們針對台鐵的常客的會員尤其是花東縣的部分我們會給更多的折扣也就是說兩個折扣加起來之後會對於居住在花東地區的民眾他們未來在返鄉的過程當中或者是時常要通勤的過程當中可以拿到比較優惠的票價那這個票價跟漲價的這個影響就會降低非常的多那我跟你說還有南迴縣的"},{"start":163.062,"end":172.227,"text":"都會包含在內花東的部分都會包含在內因為您要知道假設我住在恆春很多人不見得會選擇坐高鐵再接過去"},{"start":173.89,"end":196.803,"text":"他滑不來 他也是很辛苦的 要這樣子繞一大圈所以我請部長 那個部分請你們也要研議進去好不好會會會好 謝謝部長那另外一個部分 我在今天的夜報有看到就是我們一直都很關心偏鄉的交通正義那這個部分有提到幸福巴士行之有年"},{"start":197.603,"end":225.285,"text":"最新的數據呢已經來到說94.37%的一個涵蓋率確實我這幾年看到每一個鄉都很開心只要申請車子就有車子申請郵費就有郵費每一個鄉都很開心做得很好甚至我們117年說全部都要涵蓋到那這個部分我覺得其實很好但是部長我還是要讓您了解一下"},{"start":226.306,"end":241.148,"text":"其實像這種定點定限定時它即便開放可以跨鄉可以跨縣現在越改良越好但是始終有一個部分是大家比較不滿意的就是能不能到我家"},{"start":242.438,"end":262.674,"text":"我要去急診我要去衛生我要從這個村到那個村我要去吃喜酒還是很辛苦還是很多人家裡沒有交通工具他必須要依賴但是外面的Uber他又叫不到因為Uber呢他回頭車他空車很貴他們也不想來"},{"start":263.875,"end":279.907,"text":"所以這個部分我還是希望說我們要繼續的納入來研議要不然呢這樣的一個美意它用不到為德不足啦但是我要講的就是有一個東西我剛進來上一屆立法院第一年"},{"start":281.405,"end":295.257,"text":"我有參與偏鄉白牌車合法化為什麼部長我要參加偏鄉白牌車合法化您要知道在我們的原鄉絕大部分的馬路路線是禁止甲乙類"},{"start":296.741,"end":316.75,"text":"像前些年司馬庫斯有遊覽車翻覆就不適合甲乙類的客車所以呢我們要推動偏鄉旅遊這幾年我們其實蠻心痛的就是看到一家一家的外面的這些所謂的車行也好或者是這些租賃公司也好"},{"start":317.39,"end":327.129,"text":"都是他們的這些什麼七人座相行車一車一車到所以我們也很想啊所以我們後來呢希望來推偏鄉白牌車合法化"},{"start":328.257,"end":356.493,"text":"推動幾年我跟部長說很多人說不好用啦沒有用啦他們到最後取得了那個之後成立了那個之後民間客運可能去接一些文件站的送餐可能參與幸福巴士2.0但是他們說難以養家糊口啊無利可圖啊他們多麼羨慕外面的租賃公司外面的車行他們到最後還是回去靠行"},{"start":357.543,"end":372.165,"text":"所以如果能夠達成原來的美意我們輔導我們的偏鄉這些小型客車他能夠在原鄉能夠去載送學生能夠參與幸福巴士2.0能夠接送這些觀光客到新左營"},{"start":373.286,"end":399.872,"text":"所以政府花的錢已經很多我的訴求其實很簡單我希望這個部分幫助他們把錢花在這個地方幫助他們建置APP建置網站怎麼輔導他們成立車隊像外面的租賃公司一樣讓他們能夠在地人服務在地人能夠讓他們能夠賺這一些外地客人的錢部長這樣可以嗎好 我們參考委員的建議我們來研議看要怎麼協助他們好 謝謝部長 謝謝局長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1583,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時48分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好！辛苦了。當原民會的數據告訴我們在前幾年原住民的人口有百分之五十以上已經移居到都會地區的時候，大眾運輸工具對我們來講就很重要，我們很多族人每次要返鄉時，就必須要透過各種不同的交通工具，甚至是船、飛機等等，但是對住在花東的人，他們的人口很多，住在花蓮、臺東的原住民有十七萬多，花東的整個人口數甚至有五十三萬多，我現在要說的是這麼多的人，尤其是原住民基於經常返鄉需求，當臺鐵車票漲價的時候，我們就會很辛苦，西部可能還有其他交通工具可用，可是對花東來講，對南迴線來講，就是只能搭乘火車，所以對他的影響衝擊很大。特別要請您知道的是，我們移居都會區的族人返鄉的時候，不止是個人返鄉而已，還要帶著老公、小孩，還有阿公、阿嬤，就是一堆人一起返鄉，在這個往返當中，一天多個幾百塊，一個月下來就不得了。所以在這個部分，我特別想要請教的是有沒有可能對花東線甚至南迴線這種被迫只能接受臺鐵做交通工具的重新做個研擬？部長您怎麼看？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們分兩個部分來處理，一個部分是如果他是花東的居民，不管是否具原住民身份，我們都會提供一個比較彈性的票價給他，這是一方面，我們會用打折的方式。另一方面是您剛剛提到時常必須要往返的，我們會建議他加入臺鐵會員，我們針對臺鐵常客的會員，尤其是花東線的部分，會給更多的折扣。也就是說兩個折扣加起來之後，居住在花東地區的民眾未來在返鄉的過程當中或者是時常要通勤的過程當中，可以拿到比較優惠的票價，這時漲價的影響就會降低非常的多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還有南迴線的呢？"],["陳部長世凱：都會包含在內，花東的部分都會包含在內。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您要知道，假設我住在恆春，很多人不見得會選擇坐高鐵再接駁過去，因為這樣他划不來，要這樣子繞一大圈也是很辛苦的，所以那個部分也請部長要研議進去。"],["陳部長世凱：會，會，會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。","另外一個部分是我們一直都很關心偏鄉的交通正義，今天的業報有提到幸福巴士行之有年，最新的數據已經來到94.37%的涵蓋率，確實，我這幾年看到每一個鄉都很開心，只要申請車子就有車子，申請油費就有油費，每個鄉都很開心，做得很好，甚至說117年要全部都涵蓋到，對這個部分我覺得其實很好，但是我還是要讓部長瞭解一下，像這種定點、定線、定時，即便開放可以跨鄉、跨縣，現在愈改良愈好，但是始終有一個部分是大家比較不滿意的，就是「能不能到我家」？比如我要去急診，我要去慰喪，我要從這個村到那個村，我要去吃喜酒，都還是很辛苦，很多人家裡沒有交通工具，他必須要倚賴他人，但是外面的Uber又叫不到，因為Uber的回頭車是空車，價錢很貴，他們也不想來。所以我希望能將這個部分繼續納入研議，要不然這樣的一個美意他卻用不到，為德不卒啦！","上一屆我剛進來立法院的第一年就有參與偏鄉白牌車合法化這件事，為什麼我要參加偏鄉白牌車合法化呢？您要知道，在我們原鄉絕大部分的馬路路線是禁止甲乙類車通行的，像前些年司馬庫斯發生遊覽車翻覆事件就是因為不適合甲乙類客車通行，所以這幾年我們其實滿心痛的，為了要推動偏鄉旅遊，可是卻老是看到一家一家外面這些所謂的車行或者是租賃公司，用他們的七人座、廂型車，一車一車的載客到來，但是我們鄉親也很想啊！所以我們後來希望推動偏鄉白牌車合法化，推動了幾年，很多人卻說不好用啦！沒有用啦！他們取得了那個之後、成立了那個之後，到最後民間客運可能去接一些文健站的送餐，可能參與幸福巴士2.0，但是他們說這樣難以養家糊口啊！無利可圖啊！他們多麼羨慕外面的租賃公司、外面的車行，所以到最後他們還是回去靠行。如果能夠達成原來的美意，輔導我們偏鄉這些小型客車能夠在原鄉去載送學生，能夠參與幸福巴士2.0，能夠接送這些觀光客到新左營，政府花的錢已經很多，我的訴求其實很簡單，希望能幫助他們，把錢花在這個地方，幫助他們建置app，建置網站，輔導他們成立車隊，像外面的租賃公司一樣，讓他們能夠在地人服務在地人，讓他們能夠賺這一些外地客人的錢。部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們參考委員的建議，來研議看看要怎麼協助他們。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝局長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝我們伍麗華委員。","現在請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","葉元之","王美惠","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","陳冠廷","游顥","林宜瑾","邱志偉"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長、經濟部次長、\n外交部次長、財政部次長及行政院經貿談判辦公室就「美國課徵對等關稅對我國交通公私部門之\n衝擊與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00012"}}},{"id":"160285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfa58e025a78c6fb5ef316f6363e53358e2021fb25ab74fd8345ac82267c343f1a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"13:41:22 - 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那我們有請部長 謝謝我們交通部陳部長委員好"},{"start":15.339,"end":34.57,"text":"好部長好那我想今天就是針對於我們的兒童安全交通安全來跟部長做一些討論就是說在1月的時候你有提到您特別關心兒少交通安全的問題所以呢你也有講到就是說兒少死亡數死亡數是比前一年同期增加三人啦增幅高達30%但是我想這應該是主要是有算到陽梅的那個"},{"start":35.33,"end":49.703,"text":"孩子的部分嘛對不對不過你也有特別去強調一直在跟呼籲大眾去了解就是說我們一定要好好的做好這個安全座椅一定要戴好安全帽那你也有提到說很多的一些措施像是說你也有親自介紹這個"},{"start":51.404,"end":74.086,"text":"針對於中低年級生出的小朋友的交通安全保衛站線上郵寄以及即將已經推出的交通安全教育懶人包希望讓交通安全觀念更向下扎根那這邊我想請教部長兩個問題第一個就是說我看了一下我們這個交通教育懶人包的這個部分目前好像只有一萬多人來看過這一篇"},{"start":75.248,"end":83.764,"text":"藍人包那同時呢我也看到說因為我們有一個保衛戰的遊戲那到底線上參與的人數是多少中低年級的部分"},{"start":84.926,"end":112.253,"text":"我們可能要再跟後台的那個資訊軟體的系統上再去問這個部分我們目前可能還不知道那大概什麼時候我們可以知道呢我們就是可能看明天明天再把資料提供給委員明天就可以提供給委員那再來就是說因為也有提到說會透過教育系統讓更多的家長跟教師群組得到這個懶人包那我想問一下現在我們已經跟教育部來聯繫要怎麼做後續的推動了嗎"},{"start":112.933,"end":129.113,"text":"報告委員這個兩個部分一個部分是這個您所說的這個懶人包的部分我們應該跟教育體系有聯繫了有聯繫也有拜託他們幫忙推廣那這個現在已經是推廣後了是嗎因為我現在看是有一萬多人對目前我們有拜託他們幫忙推廣"},{"start":130.194,"end":159.036,"text":"因為這個是低年級這個是只有中低年級那高年級的是我們下一波要做出來的那另外就是說我們運研所也有一個方案就是說我們在五月份還會有一個針對國小國中高中的一個交通安全的教育的軟體會出來那這個部分等到五月一號我們正式上線之後我們也會拜託教育部那邊協助針對國小跟國中跟高中的這個交通安全的教育可以用我們這套軟體可以引進"},{"start":160.011,"end":184.39,"text":"好 因為其實我昨天跟台北市的家長會長他們在辦一個座談會那大家都非常在意這個交通安全的部分所以我覺得到底我們要如何的落實因為我們可能做了很多但是我從線上看到下載的次數可能也只有850幾次那這個部分有沒有可能也拜託委員因為有一些家長團體您非常的熟悉那我們這段軟體拜託委員幫我們串接一下大家可以幫忙推廣一下"},{"start":184.77,"end":203.812,"text":"同意但是我想我們可能還是要回到就是說我們目前的這個懶人包也好或是保衛戰也好因為都不是做第一次了那我們到底在這個過程之中有沒有更精進的一些檢討的做法呢我們目前是有安排嗎因為這也不是第一次做了嘛所以從上一次11年到113年這中間的差異是在哪裡呢"},{"start":204.332,"end":210.278,"text":"我們有跟教育單位進行五階段的教材今年我們會啟動一個檢討聽聽站在第一線的老師在使用這個教材在目前的內容上還有沒有需要再檢討的我們現在正在規劃進行檢討的工作"},{"start":229.275,"end":247.209,"text":"好那這個就延續到我下一個問題就是說因為其實呢我相信這都跟兒童非常分有關係我們是不是可以邀請兒童跟家長一起來檢討目前的一個手冊的內容或是活動的內容呢因為我想喔如果我們可以從兒童的角度來看的時候"},{"start":247.99,"end":267.052,"text":"因為我都有些字我都有點不是那麼確定小朋友真的懂嗎這部分您相當的專業所以我們下次再開檢討會議的時候再拜託委員辦公室可以提供一些名單給我們有哪些人可以邀請我們一起來討論因為我想我們還是要從兒童的語言啦才能夠更讓他們落實這件事情那再下一個問題就是說其實在111年"},{"start":268.493,"end":284.538,"text":"我們其實第二次國家兒童權利公約審查的時候呢有特別去強調說要把兒童表役權兒童參與的機制納入在我們的整個政府的體制之下但是呢在112年的時候兒少已經由兒少兒少代表他們其實說他們都可以參與啦可是常常參與了"},{"start":285.678,"end":299.815,"text":"可能講沒幾句話就時間就可能就結束了就被否決了那所以基本上他們雖然參與了可是其實並沒有辦法對政策有實質的建言那所以這個部分呢有在六位的兒少呢依據了權力公約的第14號"},{"start":300.896,"end":326.867,"text":"一般性意見書以及我們的第九十一點的意見書裡面提到說我們應該要能夠去參與也希望說有五個部會可以成立兒權小組那交通部就是其中一個那可是呢我們這個針對於這一個意見呢交通部的回應是說可以看綠色的字就是說依職權邀請與議題相關之團體列席那這個部分我知道的是目前找兒校團體"},{"start":328.167,"end":352.461,"text":"但是還是沒有兒少代表那第二個部分就是說以公共政策網路參與平台目前呢我想這也是非常不適合兒少參與的一個機制所以目前還有第三個回應是說其實行政院有兒少推動小組那我也必須要跟部長報告在這個現場在這個開會的現場其實有非常多的題目所以而且他是主動是由大家來提案的所以"},{"start":352.921,"end":363.666,"text":"不一定會針對兒童的這個交通的部分來特別的討論所以我希望部長是不是可以研議我們來辦一個兒少的這個部級的一個那個諮詢小組"},{"start":365.632,"end":389.282,"text":"我們是不是可以來研議這個做一個佈局的兒權小組我們過去其實是針對議題啦有適合的議題我們也會找兒少代表不是只有團體兒少代表也是有過啦真的嗎因為我們找到的資料好像只有兒權團體也有兒少代表嗎兒少代表也有過也有過那未來委員在建議的這個我覺得相當的好我們針對整體的交通的議題我們是不是找兒少的代表大家一起來座談或者是"},{"start":389.582,"end":411.137,"text":"我希望的是部長我們是不是可以把它變成是一個常態性的會議而不是可能只有針對議題上面常態性的會議常態性的一個就是一個兒權小組在交通部下面對那因為其實有非常多的議題可能都會跟兒童非常有關係包含我們過去的一些交通的不管是我們的這個四年四百億的相關的這個部分我們來研議我們來研議這部分我們來研議好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1554,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時41分）我們有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天我想針對兒童交通安全來跟部長做一些討論，1月的時候，你有提到你特別關心兒少交通安全的問題，也講到兒少死亡數比前一年同期增加3人，增幅高達30%，但是我想這應該是有算到楊梅那事故中孩子的部分，不過你也特別強調有一直呼籲大眾瞭解一定要好好的坐好安全座椅、戴好安全帽，你提到了很多措施，比如你親自介紹針對中低年級生出的「小朋友交通安全保衛戰線上遊戲」以及已經推出的交通安全教育懶人包，希望能讓交通安全觀念更向下紮根。這邊我想請教部長兩個問題，第一個就是我看了一下我們這個交通教育懶人包，目前好像只有一萬多人來看過，同時我也看到這個保衛戰的遊戲，請問到底線上參與人數是多少？中低年級的部分。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們可能要問問後台的資訊軟體系統商，目前還不知道。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候可以知道呢？"],["陳部長世凱：明天再把資料提供給委員，好不好？明天就可以提供給委員。"],["張委員雅琳：好。再來就是因為也有提到會透過教育系統，讓更多的家長跟教師群組得到這個懶人包，我想問一下，現在我們已經聯繫教育部要怎麼做後續的推動了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這有兩個部分，一個是您所說的懶人包的部分，我們應該跟教育體系有聯繫了，也有拜託他們幫忙推廣。第二個部分其實……"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個現在已經是推廣後了，是嗎？因為我現在看到只有一萬多人次的閱覽量。"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們有拜託他們幫忙推廣，但這只是針對中低年級的，高年級的部分是我們下一波要做出來的。另外就是我們運研所也有一個方案，我們在5月份還有一個針對國小、國中、高中的交通安全教育軟體會出來，這個部分等到5月1號正式上線之後，我們也會拜託教育部那邊協助，針對國小跟國中、高中的交通安全教育，可以引進我們這套軟體。"],["張委員雅琳：其實我昨天跟臺北市的家長會長辦了一個座談會，大家都非常在意這個交通安全的部分，所以我在想到底我們要如何的落實，因為我們可能做了很多，但是我從線上看到下載的次數可能也只有八百五十幾次。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分可能要拜託委員，因為有些家長團體您非常的熟悉，我們這套軟體拜託委員幫我們串接一下，大家可以幫忙推廣一下。"],["張委員雅琳：同意，這部分我當然可以協助，但是我想我們可能還是要回到源頭，因為目前的這個懶人包或是保衛戰，都不是第一次做了，那在這個過程之中，我們到底有沒有更精進的一些檢討的作法呢？我們目前是有安排嗎？因為這也不是第一次做了，從上一次的111年到113年，這中間的差異是在哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請司長說明一下，我們有進行兩個階段的檢討。"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，111年我們有跟教育單位進行五階段的教材，今年我們會啟動一個檢討，聽聽站在第一線的老師在使用目前這個教材的內容上還有沒有需要再檢討之處，我們現在正在規劃進行檢討的工作。"],["張委員雅琳：那這就延續到我下一個問題，就是其實這都跟兒童非常非常有關係，那麼我們是不是可以邀請兒童跟家長，一起來檢討目前的手冊或活動的內容？我想的是是不是我們可以從兒童的角度來看，因為有些字我都有點不是那麼確定小朋友真的看得懂。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分您相當的專業，所以我們下次在開檢討會議的時候，拜託委員辦公室可以提供一些名單給我們，看看有哪些人可以邀請，我們一起來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒問題。我想我們還是要從兒童的語言著眼，才能夠讓他們更落實這件事情。","下一個問題是，在111年我們第二次國家兒童權利公約審查的時候，有特別強調要把兒童表意權、兒童參與機制納入我們整個政府體制之下，但是在112年的時候，兒少代表表示他們都可以參與，可是參與了之後，常常講不到幾句話時間可能就結束了，就被否決了，所以基本上他們雖然參與了，可是其實並沒有辦法對政策有實質的建言。所以針對這個部分，有6位兒少依據權利公約第14號一般性意見書以及第91點意見書提到他們應該要能夠去參與，也希望5個部會可以成立兒權小組，交通部就是其中一個部會，可是針對這個意見，請各位看看螢幕上圖片中標示為綠色的交通部的回應，說是「依職權邀請與議題相關之團體列席」，在這個部分，我知道的是目前有找兒少團體，但是還是沒有兒少代表。然後又說到「公共政策網路參與平台」，我想目前這也是非常不適合兒少參與的一個機制，還有第三個回應是說其實行政院有兒少推動小組，我必須要跟部長報告的是，在開會的現場其實是有非常多的題目，而且是由大家主動提案的，所以不一定會針對兒童交通的部分來特別討論，因此我希望部長是否可以研議成立一個兒少的部級諮詢小組，我們是不是可以來研議做一個部級的兒權小組？"],["陳部長世凱：我們過去其實是針對議題，有適合的議題就會找兒少代表，不是只有團體，兒少代表也是有過啦！"],["張委員雅琳：真的嗎？因為我們找到的資料好像只有兒權團體耶！"],["陳部長世凱：兒少代表也有過，委員這個建議我覺得相當的好，針對整體的交通議題，未來我們是不是找兒少的代表，大家一起來座談或者是……"],["張委員雅琳：我希望的是可不可以把它變成是一個常態性的會議而不是只針對議題，就是在交通部下面成立一個兒權小組，因為其實有非常多的議題可能都會跟兒童的方案有關係，包含我們過去的一些交通的部分，不管是4年400億的相關等等。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們來研議看看該怎麼做。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分請研議一下好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝我們張雅琳委員。","現在請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝交通部陳部長"},{"start":16.948,"end":39.469,"text":"最近有發生一個郵輪的消費糾紛是一個義大利籍的哥斯達郵輪他因為有一些狀況所以滯留在那霸報休後來形成延誤那除了該次的行程有延誤之外也影響到下一航班所以總共有7000人受影響但因為這個哥斯達後來"},{"start":40.551,"end":48.447,"text":"後來他說他是根據全球營運規範只願意提供50塊到100塊美金的船上消費的抵用金"},{"start":49.349,"end":69.758,"text":"那當然消費者不願意接受嘛因為好不容易排到了然後這個假期然後去然後遇到這個狀況結果業者只提供這個50到100塊美金報告委員目前已經是200塊美金對 一樣啦很多人還是不滿意那所以現在已經他們已經有讓去消保官那邊說要介入了"},{"start":70.638,"end":97.658,"text":"但我現在是發現說這個郵輪的這樣一個消費糾紛糾紛其實是層出不窮因為像去年7月的時候同樣一個郵輪公司哥斯達他遇到凱米颱風嘛形成也是延誤三次那後來也是影響到很多消費者的權益那再往前推一點還有另外一家郵輪公司也有消費者跟我陳情他那時候是有機械故障然後在原地"},{"start":98.539,"end":114.479,"text":"打轉失去動力在原地打轉但是這家船公司不承認他說沒有可是消費者就非常確定是有的當時航港局有回應這個事情但是拿著船公司的聲明來回應也沒有做調查"},{"start":115.16,"end":137.45,"text":"那我現在想要跟就不想討論這個機制因為為什麼其實你可以去看很多人很喜歡坐這種郵輪它幾乎都滿滿的為什麼呢因為很多郵輪都去日本台灣人特別喜歡去日本所以有去日本的航程通常都很容易滿第二個是有些人他就是喜歡坐郵輪他也許到了一個港口他也不見得下船他在船上可以做很多活動"},{"start":138.47,"end":153.887,"text":"所以我認為這個航港局應該要有一個機制來保護我們消費者目前如果消費者遇到這個狀況大概只能三種情況第一個就是透過品保協會來申訴可是品保協會只能申訴旅行社"},{"start":154.728,"end":184.008,"text":"旅行社通常就會說他只是代銷船叫他們自己去找船公司所以這也沒辦法第二就是透過消保官或是消基會但實際上不想言很清楚透過消保官或消基會如果協調不成最後還是要打官司那很多這種郵輪他都是外國籍的變成要打跨國官司那多半所有消費者他不會因為這一點損失他跑去打跨國官司因為打跨國官司是曠日廢食又要付出更多的成本所以"},{"start":184.788,"end":209.863,"text":"有沒有可能 這我提出一個建議啦你們可以來研議一下有沒有可能我們航港局或者是交通部針對至少是從台灣出發或者是以台灣為主要港口的這些郵輪公司可以建立一個評鑑機制如果他被申訴過多或者是說態度就比如我們消保官介入或消基會介入每一次他們都態度很高傲"},{"start":211.103,"end":233.665,"text":"然後等等的一個評驗機制當然什麼項目交通部可以去規劃如果他評比比較不OK那至少我們可以是不是可以考慮比如說減少他在我們港口的停留的時間或什麼之類可以想到一個對應的方案出來那至少我認為未來有一個保障以後消費者如果遇到糾紛"},{"start":235.086,"end":249.047,"text":"他不至於態度會這麼高仗著自己是外國籍然後仗著好像這個是一個賣方市場反正你不來還有還有別人要來我位子很滿我不見得要理你啊只要你們對不對我在想說交通部有沒有可能研議出這樣的基礎因為這個狀況越來越多了"},{"start":250.629,"end":279.744,"text":"報告委員確實我們有發現這種消費上面的糾紛蠻多的所以我們針對他們定型化契約的部分怎麼樣針對這個消費者的權益的保障的部分我們會來做一個新的版本讓他未來對消費者的保障的程度會更好那其實台灣的這個消費者保護的機制還算蠻健全包含我們小保關介入也都會有效果這個部分我們會先做那您剛剛所建議這個平建機制我覺得也是蠻好的想法我們來討論看看看可不可以往這個方向去推動"},{"start":280.524,"end":302.882,"text":"我想回應喔第一個我們的定型化契約跟保護當然是做得很好可是問題是定型化契約還要再修要修得更好修得更好嘛因為業者不理你啊因為之前有一個消費者跟我有有有我們如果有照那個契約基本上他不太可能不理你我就是有遇到陳其仁跟我這樣反應嘛結果到最後就叫他自己去打跨國官司啊那就放棄了"},{"start":303.976,"end":333.291,"text":"所以你如果純粹靠那個定型化契約最後要走司法途徑的話實際上他的效果還是有限我認為如果公權力可以介入一個評鑑機制對他有一些不管是懲罰或要求其實可以達到比較好的效果好我說是不是航港局可以來研議一下這個我們來研究看看看看是不是我們訂一個期限因為我跟你講那個有人的問題一直層出不窮看看多久可以把這個大概構想提出來"},{"start":334.848,"end":346.936,"text":"我們先研究看看看怎麼樣做會比較完善沒關係 你說定一個期限嘛你研究完之後可以做不可以做也給個答案嘛我們三個月好不好我們三個月的時間來研議一下好不好OK 好 好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1510,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時28分）麻煩請交通部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，最近發生一件郵輪的消費糾紛，一艘義大利籍的歌詩達郵輪因為有狀況，滯留在那霸報修，以致行程有延誤，除了該次的行程有延誤之外，也影響到下一航班，所以總共有7,000人受影響。後來這一艘歌詩達說他們根據全球營運規範，只願意提供50元到100元美金船上消費的抵用金。消費者當然不願意接受，因為好不容易排到這個假期想要去旅遊，卻遇到這個狀況，結果業者只提供這個50到100塊美金……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前已經是200元美金。"],["葉委員元之：對，但很多人還是不滿意，他們已經請消保官去介入。本席發現郵輪的消費糾紛真的是層出不窮，去年7月的時候，同樣是歌詩達郵輪公司，遇到凱米颱風，行程也是延誤三次，後來也影響到很多消費者的權益；再往前推一點，另外一家郵輪公司，也有消費者跟我陳情，它那時候是機械故障，失去動力，然後在原地打轉，但這家船公司不承認，他們說沒有，可是消費者就非常確定是有的，當時航港局拿著船公司的聲明來回應，但是有沒有做調查。本席想要跟部長討論這個機制，因為很多郵輪都去日本，臺灣人特別喜歡去日本，所以去日本的航程通常都很容易滿；第二，有些人就是喜歡坐郵輪，也許到了一個港口，他不見得下船，因為他在船上可以做很多活動。所以我認為，航港局應該要有一個機制來保護我們的消費者。目前消費者如果遇到這個狀況，大概只有三種選擇，第一就是透過品保協會來申訴，可是品保協會只能申訴旅行社，旅行社通常會說他們只代銷船票，叫消費者自己去找船公司，所以這就沒辦法；第二就透過消保官或是消基會，但部長也很清楚，透過消保官或消基會，如果協調不成，最後還是要打官司。而這種郵輪很多都是外國籍，如果要打跨國官司，多半的消費者不會因為這一點損失，跑去打跨國官司，因為打跨國官司通常是曠日費時，又要付出更多的成本。","所以我提出一個建議，您可以來研議──有沒有可能由我們航港局或是交通部，針對至少是從臺灣出發或是以臺灣為主要港口的這些郵輪公司，來建立一個評鑑機制？如果他們被申訴過多，或是每一次我們的消保官或消基會介入，他們態度都很高傲等等。評鑑機制需要什麼項目，交通部可以去規劃，如果它的評比比較不OK，至少我們可以考慮，比如減少它在我們港口的停留時間，或什麼之類的，有一個對應的方案出來，至少可以有一個保障，未來消費者如果遇到糾紛，它的態度也不至於會這麼高，仗著自己是外國籍，仗著這個是賣方市場，你不來，還有別人要來，我的位置很滿，不見得要理你等等。所以，我在想交通部有沒有可能研議出這樣的機制，因為這個狀況越來越多。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們也有發現這種消費糾紛是滿多的，所以我們針對他們定型化契約的部分，怎麼針對消費者權益保障的部分，會來做一個新的版本，未來對消費者的保障程度會更好。其實臺灣的消費者保護機制還算滿健全的，包含我們消保官介入也都會有效果，這個部分我們會先做；而您剛剛所建議的評鑑機制，也是滿好的想法，我們來討論看看，可不可以往這個方向去推動。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝部長回應，第一個，我們的定型化契約跟保護，當然是做得很好，問題是……"],["陳部長世凱：定型化契約還要再修得更好。"],["葉委員元之：可是業者不理你，因為之前有消費者問我……"],["陳部長世凱：如果有照那個契約，基本上它不太可能……"],["葉委員元之：我就是遇到陳情人跟我這樣反映，到最後就叫他自己去打跨國官司，他也就放棄了。所以，如果純粹靠那個定型化契約，最後要走司法途徑的話，實際上，它的效果還是有限。所以，我認為如果公權力可以介入一個評鑑機制，對它有一些不管是懲罰或要求，其實可以達到比較好的效果，航港局是不是可以來研議一下？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來研究看看。"],["葉委員元之：我們是不是訂一個期限，因為郵輪的問題一直層出不窮，你們大概多久可以把這個構想提出來？"],["陳部長世凱：我們先研究看看怎麼樣做會比較完善。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，你就訂一個期限，就是你研究完，可以做或不可以做，給個答案嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：給我們三個月的時間來研議，好不好？"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","現在請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","現在請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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慢速運具腳踏車或者是電扶車好"},{"start":29.468,"end":48.706,"text":"那我想我進一步再問說,傷亡數據你有沒有掌握?傷亡數據?對,嚴不嚴重?慢速的?對,慢速運劑黃市長,你這邊有沒有慢速運劑的傷亡?或者是委員那邊有,要不要直接說?好,我們就來看"},{"start":51.266,"end":65.805,"text":"看到這個數據你看光看三年的數據就呈現惡化的趨勢讓人家十分擔憂那整體來看到慢車的交通事故案件傷亡是持續全面的持續成長"},{"start":67.166,"end":95.198,"text":"那腳踏腳踏車大概是成長1.1成6那微電車事實上是1成5那電動輔助車自行車事實上是3年內成長2成7可是我比較近期有一個議題很值得關注的就是我們在問你們滑板車的數據因為我們現在路上就很常看到滑板車那你跟我們講說是放在個人行動運具那如果講說放個人行動運具的話現在也成長了3倍是多那就想問部長說"},{"start":96.198,"end":118.968,"text":"那目前國內的電動滑板車的管理狀況是什麼而且你有沒有掌握而且舉凡行使的入權跟安全規範這些問題不知道部長知不知道我們要不要請市長回答會比較快這個部分跟委員報告一下委員大概也知道說處罰條例上是修正已經把這個個人行動這個載具的部分已經放寬讓各地方政府可以依照它"},{"start":120.209,"end":138.124,"text":"這個各地方政府交通的狀況或路段可以開放的部分去做開放那到目前的話確實也還沒有地方政府在做這個開放交通部應該很清楚現在在國內的那個電動滑板車雖然依法看起來有依法"},{"start":138.604,"end":167.155,"text":"屬於交通規範中的個人行動器具寫是這樣寫定義上是慢車可是可惜的是因為法規跟環境的限制一個是入權很不清楚另外一個就是我們要來問的是因為我去問警政單位因為警政單位也在跟我反映那到底他要用什麼法如果針對這些新型運具的話不知道要適用哪些法規所以想來問部長你認為警察如果遇到我們的電動滑板車違規的話要用"},{"start":168.236,"end":193.574,"text":"69條還是32之1條這部分跟委員報告一下因為個人行動這個載具在這個處罰條例已經定義成慢車了所以他這個違規處罰的部分大概有兩個課題第一個部分如果地方政府沒有開放他上去的話那基本上就是違反這個不得上馬路的規定那另外一個部分他的交通違規行為如果說有違反一些相關的部分就乘乳腳踏車一樣基本上都是按照這個慢車的"},{"start":194.535,"end":213.131,"text":"你現在講地方政府 地方政府就覺得中央然後就兩邊就是會互踢皮球所以我說問你69條還是還是32支1條如果你講69條的話那就不知道那電動滑板車規格是什麼這各縣市政府有沒有去訂規格這69條講的說他自己訂規格啊然後行駛的路線是哪些如果你說講32條的話那我就覺得的確現在警方"},{"start":217.495,"end":241.42,"text":"的確是用32條之一來開罰可是用32條之一開罰的話那就會講說滑板車他就不是個人行動那個運據囉那如果不是行動運據的話那我們前面講數據你們又說把滑板車的數據史上的數據歸在那個所謂的個人行動運救這我就覺得有點前後史上不太一致"},{"start":242.27,"end":262.497,"text":"那當然我也再請部長是針對我們的電動滑板車的管理能不能做一下現在目前的規劃的狀況和進度是什麼我們會出一個指引會出一個指引已經請運營所正在做指引當中有了指引之後地方政府就比較好預許"},{"start":263.68,"end":290.492,"text":"部長我覺得今天來看我們來看其他國家因為我認為臺灣的管理措施都還相對的消極因為我們年齡定的最低然後呢數限定的相較於其他國家是比較寬的所以難怪我們的傷亡事實上是一直在成長而且成長到三倍我覺得這不是一個好事尤其剛剛前面那個央軍委員也在講的事實上兒童的交通傷亡事實上是成長了50%所以這件事情應該"},{"start":293.673,"end":314.186,"text":"部長應該要去考慮到如果國外有些好的措施為什麼沒有吸取別人的經驗呢那我們再來看歐洲那你剛剛講有指引我就不知道有沒有去對價到歐洲的一個狀況他們也知道電動滑板車事故率很高甚至他們現在有意要全面禁止那甚至他們去看到這種"},{"start":315.086,"end":343.384,"text":"事實上是自行車的傷亡的7到10倍的時候他們指引做了些什麼事情呢也就是希望能夠第一個要求戴頭盔然後呢另外一個事實上禁止使用手機甚至提供駕駛訓練甚至明訂車體的規格跟路權都在做可是相對於我們現在目前我不知道說我們做的狀況是什麼我也會參考各國的這些案例跟他們的好的規範您剛剛所提到他們好的規範我們會在6月來出指引目前指引還沒出來我們目前會參考這個來出一個"},{"start":344.565,"end":361.604,"text":"是我們再來看一下日本他是透過民間企業合作的方式在特定的區域先去試辦跟評估如果按照成效之後才訂定法規所以最後我就期待專部可不可以針對這兩點也就是積極跟地方政府延伸試辦計畫來啟動調查研究然後"},{"start":365.487,"end":387.322,"text":"針對這種新興的一個慢速運劇一定要做因為我們自己去看其他國家像我們去美國他們也越來越多這個那台灣也是那第二就是檢討目前的規範執行跟我們的推動的情形來盡速研擬我們的慢速運劇後續的管理方式所以這個是不是可以兩週內給我相關的報告提供說明這個沒問題好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1488,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時21分）麻煩請交通部部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長午安。請問部長知道慢速運具有哪些嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：慢速運具有腳踏車或者是電輔車。"],["林委員月琴：我再進一步問傷亡數據，你們有沒有掌握？"],["陳部長世凱：傷亡數據？"],["林委員月琴：對，就是嚴不嚴重？"],["陳部長世凱：慢速的？我問黃司長那邊有沒有慢速運具的傷亡數據？或者委員那邊有資料，要不要直接說？"],["林委員月琴：好，我們光看最近三年的數據就呈現惡化的趨勢，讓人家十分擔憂。整體來看，慢車交通事故傷亡的案件是全面持續成長，腳踏自行車大概是成長一成六，微電車事實上是一成五，電動輔助自行車三年內成長二成七。近期有一個議題很值得關注，就是我們問你們滑板車的數據，因為現在路上很常看滑板車，你們說那是放在個人行動運具裡面，如果是放在個人行動運具的話，現在也成長了三倍之多。本席就想問部長，目前國內電動滑板車的管理狀況是什麼？你們有沒有掌握？舉凡行駛的路權跟安全規範等問題，部長是否了解？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分請司長回答。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，委員大概也知道，處罰條例已經修正，把個人行動載具的部分予以放寬，讓各地方政府可以依照地方交通的狀況或路段可以開放的部分去做開放，目前確實也還沒有地方政府做這個開放……"],["林委員月琴：我想交通部應該很清楚，現在國內電動滑板車的規定雖然寫著：屬於交通規範中的個人行動器具，定義上是慢車，但因為法規跟環境的限制，一個是路權很不清楚，另外就是警政單位也在跟我反映，到底他們要用什麼法？因為針對這些新型運具的部分，他們也不知道適用哪些法規。所以我想問部長，警察如果遇到違規的電動滑板車，要用第六十九條還是第三十二條之一？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，因為個人行動載具在這個處罰條例裡面已經定義成慢車，所以在違規處罰的部分大概有兩個課題，第一個部分，如果地方政府沒有開放它上去的話，基本上就是違反不得上馬路的規定；另外一個部分，他的交通違規行為如果有違反相關的部分，就如腳踏車一樣，基本上都是按照慢車的規範……"],["林委員月琴：你現在講地方政府，地方政府就覺得是中央，然後兩邊就互踢皮球。所以我問你是依第六十九條，還是第三十二條之一？如果你講第六十九條的話，那麼電動滑板車的規格是什麼？各縣市政府有沒有去訂規格？因為第六十九條講的是他們自己訂規格，行駛的路線是哪些；如果你講第三十二條之一的話，警方現在的確是用第三十二條之一來開罰，可是用第三十二條之一開罰的話，滑板車就不是個人行動運具，如果不是行動運具的話，我們前面講的數據，你們又把滑板車的數據歸在所謂的個人行動運具裡面，我就會覺得前後不太一致。所以，部長能不能針對電動滑板車的管理，說明一下目前規劃的狀況和進度是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會訂出一個指引，已經請運研所正在做指引當中，有了指引之後，地方政府就比較好依循。"],["林委員月琴：部長，我們看其他國家，我認為臺灣的管理措施都還是相對的消極，因為我們的年齡訂的最低，我們的速限相較於其他國家也訂的比較寬，難怪我們的傷亡數一直在成長，而且成長到三倍，我覺得這不是一個好事。尤其剛剛楊瓊瓔委員也在講，兒少的交通傷亡事件事實上也成長了50%，所以部長應該要考慮到，如果國外有一些好的措施，為什麼我們沒有汲取別人的經驗？我們再看歐洲，你剛剛講有指引，我就不知道有沒有去對照到歐洲的狀況，他們知道電動滑板車的事故率很高，甚至有意要全面禁止；尤其看到是自行車傷亡的七到十倍的時候，他們在指引中做了些什麼事情呢？第一個，要求帶頭盔；另外，禁止使用手機，提供駕駛訓練，並明定車體的規格跟路權，這些他們都在做。相較於我們，我不知道我們做的狀況是什麼……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們也會參考各國的這些案例跟他們好的規範，就像您剛剛提到他們好的規範，我們會在6月提出指引，目前指引還沒出來，我們會參考這些來出一個指引。"],["林委員月琴：我們再看一下日本，他們是透過民間企業合作的方式，在特定的區域先去試辦跟評估，再按照成效去訂定法規。本席期待交通部可不可以針對這兩點，第一，積極跟地方政府研商試辦計畫，啟動調查研究；針對這種新興的慢速運具一定要做，因為我們去看其他國家，像美國他們也是越來越多這個，我們臺灣也是。第二，就是檢討目前的規範執行跟我們推動的情形，儘速研擬我們的慢速運具後續的管理方式。可否兩週內給我相關的報告？"],["陳部長世凱：提供說明，這個沒問題。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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楊瓊邀請部長好 交通部陳部長委員好"},{"start":17.475,"end":46.565,"text":"部長好那我們來討論今年這個來台旅客我們設定的目標是要達到千萬人的這個目標但是我們看到目前全球關稅這個關稅站的陰影之下呢導致了日本韓國東南亞這些中藥客源的市場出現了衰退那更令人憂心的是呢我們這個我國的觀光產業長期存在一個什麼呢景點同質性高"},{"start":48.165,"end":75.957,"text":"那數位資訊以及交通整合那怎麼樣可以整合得更好還有在我們宣傳跟特色方面必須要連結起來結合才能夠更有效能所以要請教面對國際情勢的嚴峻挑戰跟我們自己本身的條件那部長你也說了4月9號的時候看到你發表說表示我國旅遊業對外行銷的方式是必須要檢討的"},{"start":78.098,"end":91.807,"text":"所以在這邊要來請教部長面對關稅戰可能帶來的衝擊跟現有的國際旅客衰退的警訊世界各國都很緊張這個警訊我們要採取什麼樣有效的應變方案"},{"start":97.39,"end":115.957,"text":"又如我們要怎麼去檢討跟改善我國的觀光行銷策略跟產業來結構性的這個結合這個問題是非常的重要才能夠確保你們所宣布的希望這個千萬觀光人士的目標來達成 請做說明"},{"start":118.178,"end":135.026,"text":"報告委員這個不是設定千萬人次我的說法是說去年沒達成我們希望今年能夠達成那另外去年沒達成今年能夠達成當然就是交通部希望在今年來台旅客要達千萬人次但是我一直強調其實質比量更重要"},{"start":135.686,"end":157.266,"text":"我們現在在打底像委員剛剛所指教的沒有錯我們有很多的地方做的不夠例如說同時性太高或者是宣傳不夠或者是數位資訊的提供不夠或交通的整合不夠佳這些都是打底的工作所以交通部要怎麼樣做應對這些部分我們要一塊一塊把它做好一塊一塊把它做好怎麼做呢"},{"start":157.606,"end":181.25,"text":"但您特別在提醒就是說因為這個關稅戰的陰霾之下陰影之下導致日韓跟東南亞客源市場衰退到目前為止我們看第一我們的訂房率影響並不大第二我們這個航空的這個訂票訂票率看起來也還好不過我認為未來可能會造成衝擊跟影響我們現在正在預作準備也跟委員報告會議籌謀是非常的重要"},{"start":181.51,"end":181.75,"text":"國外旅客來台要補助"},{"start":206.359,"end":231.931,"text":"對誘因要增加另外就是我們自己內部打底的部分我們該怎麼樣幫助我們的旅行社也好或者是飯店業也好這個部分我們也都會加強來努力好你的回答告訴我們政府是有在觀看目前的樣態當然目前關稅還在談判的這個排隊當中所以我們政府不管是中央政府地方政府大家都極力的"},{"start":232.931,"end":249.237,"text":"必須要團結一起合作來應對這個事項那所以呢本下請教您說秋冬的時候那你們預計在你們所研擬的這個方案什麼時候可以告訴給國人我們大概什麼時候目前來講我們"},{"start":253.195,"end":272.94,"text":"跟委員報告一下部長也確實有要求我們應該要做好各種準備啦我們的部分我們是還要幾個方案在做調整所以一邊談判一邊預計有可能的面向那因為秋冬你總是要在秋之前要宣布啊"},{"start":274.231,"end":284.314,"text":"要不然我們所有的觀光業者他要怎麼去應對所有的準備都要預先準備對 那你們大約什麼時候可以去反點這個方向報告委員因為我們準備了假設我先假設說景氣下滑假設觀光景氣下滑"},{"start":292.737,"end":314.547,"text":"那我們就會來宣布這些方案這個沒有問題但也有一個可能性是景氣並沒有下滑我們方案有準備了我們當然希望啊所以我們就像跟做水庫一樣一定要保障我國國內的觀光以及來台的人數要達到您所說的千萬人士的這個目標嘛所以方案好"},{"start":315.367,"end":338.428,"text":"你現在說你們有準備我也希望你們把應對的一定要準備充足隨時什麼狀況就隨時可以提出那接下來我要跟你討論的一件事情也就是我們交通事故死亡的人數跟行人死亡人數當然現在我們歡喜看到它是下降的趨勢但是本期要跟你討論的是1到2月"},{"start":339.028,"end":353.542,"text":"我們的兒少交通事故的死亡人數是比去年的同期增加50%這個我非常的緊張因為這個兒童及青少年我們理所當然應該要能夠得到保障"},{"start":354.182,"end":371.716,"text":"所以如果是有漏洞就會產生衝擊到我們家庭的幸福跟安全當然本席要跟你討論的也就是說我們目前有開發交通安全教學輔導軟體但是結果它是"},{"start":373.458,"end":388.754,"text":"這個數字讓我們是有一點心慌所以每一個生命都非常的寶貴那我們要如何的在政策方面能夠去提升整個交通安全的一個意識跟行為請教"},{"start":392.436,"end":408.004,"text":"報告委員在教育的層面我們5月1號會有一個新的軟體5月1號調整軟體上架那我們也會跟教育部門也就是教育部這邊來協調跟溝通看小學國中跟高中怎麼樣去接受這個軟體從根本觀念讓他們有清楚"},{"start":410.925,"end":427.709,"text":"行為才能夠落實 這個務必要去加強最後一個功課我給您 也就是高速公路的統計我們1月份到3月份國道發生了36件火燒車的事件那甚至在3月13號發生了半連結車"},{"start":433.23,"end":450.578,"text":"這個火燒車呢延至了長達造成11公里的嚴重回堵那我們可以看到這個問題我們必須要去謹慎之所以本期又看到3月底今年到3月底我們國大AI死亡的事故當中你們有做統計"},{"start":451.698,"end":476.02,"text":"高達六成二的噪音是什麼呢是分心跟疲勞架勢當然我們不希望這些事情的發生那麼交通部你們除了呼籲民眾自律之外你是不是因為這樣的嚴肅的議題你要怎麼樣有積極的防範措施來確保我們國道用人生命財產的一個安全請說明"},{"start":476.841,"end":478.482,"text":"因為一件事情他會引導到11公里的一個回堵"},{"start":493.47,"end":514.1,"text":"那這個是很緊張的事情用那個駕駛人他沒有去注意他自己的車款當然所以本席告訴你六成二的原因是分心跟疲勞駕駛那你明明知道這個原因我們政府要怎麼去應對我覺得這個你們本席認為你們要有所去討論要怎麼樣去應對不再讓它發生嘛"},{"start":514.52,"end":530.723,"text":"你現在知道原因你當然要有方法我們現在也有這邊大部分都是大車的部分大車的部分我會跟那些你幫你進行方案去研討然後給本席來防止這些事件好不好好 那個鄭局長就提供書面資料給楊委員好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1438,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時12分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔邀請部長。"],["主席：好，請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們來討論今年來臺旅客，交通部設定的目標是要達到千萬人次的目標，但是我們看到目前全球關稅戰的陰影之下，導致日本、韓國、東南亞這些重要客源的市場出現了衰退。更令人憂心的是，我國的觀光產業長期存在幾個問題，景點同質性高；數位資訊以及交通整合，怎麼樣可以整合得更好；還有在宣傳跟特色方面，必須要連結起來，才能更有效能。面對國際情勢的嚴峻挑戰跟我們自己本身的條件，部長4月9日也表示，我國旅遊業對外行銷的方式是必須要檢討的，所以在這邊要來請教部長，面對關稅戰可能帶來的衝擊，跟現有國際旅客衰退的警訊，世界各國都很緊張，對於這一個警訊，我們要採取什麼樣有效的應變方案？又如我們要怎麼檢討跟改善我國的觀光行銷策略，跟產業來做結構性的結合？這個問題是非常的重要，才能夠確保你們所宣布的，希望千萬觀光人次的目標能夠達成。請做說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個不是設定千萬人次，我的說法是去年沒達成，我們希望今年能夠達成。另外就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去年沒達成，希望今年能達成，當然就是交通部希望在今年來臺旅客要達千萬人次的目標，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：但是我一直強調質比量更重要。我們現在在打底，委員剛剛所指教的沒有錯。我們有很多的地方做得不夠力，例如同質性太高，或者宣傳不夠，或者是數位資訊提供得不夠，或是交通整合不夠佳，這都是打底的工作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這些問題點我們都知道，所以交通部要怎麼樣應對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，您在提醒的這些部分，我們要一塊一塊把它做好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼做呢？"],["陳部長世凱：你特別在提醒的是，因為關稅戰的陰影之下，導致日韓跟東南亞客源市場衰退。到目前為止，我們看到，第一，訂房率影響並不大；第二，航空的訂票率看起來也還好，不過我認為未來可能會造成衝擊跟影響，我們現在正在預做準備。也跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：未雨綢繆是非常重要。"],["陳部長世凱：對，也跟委員報告，因為現在變化都還在進行當中，我們針對秋冬的部分會來擬定計畫，如果在秋冬的時候真的造成了整個觀光景氣下滑，我們應該要怎麼幫助業者，怎麼幫助臺灣的旅遊業，包含要增加誘因，也就是說國外旅客來臺的補助，誘因的部分要增加。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國外旅客來臺要補助。"],["陳部長世凱：對，誘因要增加。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誘因增加。"],["陳部長世凱：另外就是自己內部打底的部分，我們該怎麼樣幫助旅行社也好，或者是飯店業也好，這個部分我們也都會加強來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你的回答告訴我們，政府有在觀看目前的樣態，當然目前關稅還在排隊談判當中，所以不管是中央政府、地方政府大家都必須極力的團結，一起合作，來應對這個事項。所以本席要請教，你說秋冬的時候，那你們所研議的方案預計什麼時候可以告訴國人？"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告，目前來講，部長也確實有要求我們應該要做好各種準備。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["周署長永暉：我們的部分是還有幾個方案在做調整。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以一邊談判，一邊預測可能的面向。"],["周署長永暉：我們也希望大家……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因應秋冬，你總是要在之前要宣布啊，要不然所有的觀光業者要怎麼去應對？"],["周署長永暉：所有的準備都要預先準備，但是不見得要先告訴大家，我覺得這是兩個層次的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你們大約什麼時候可以去盤點這個方向？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為我們所準備的，假設啦！我先假設觀光景氣下滑，我們就會來宣布這些方案，這個沒有問題。但也有一個可能性是景氣並沒有下滑，我們方案有準備了，但是不會公布。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們當然希望啊！所以就像做水庫一樣，一定要保障我國國內的觀光，以及來臺的人數要達到你所說的千萬人次的目標嘛。你現在說你們有準備方案，我也希望你們的應對一定要準備充足，隨時什麼狀況就隨時可以提出。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我要跟你討論的一件事情，也就是交通事故死亡的人數跟行人死亡人數，當然我們現在歡喜看到它是下降的趨勢。但是本席要跟你討論的是1到2月兒少交通事故的死亡人數比去年的同期增加50%，這個讓我覺得非常的緊張，因為兒童及青少年理所當然應該要能夠得到保障，如果有漏洞，會衝擊到家庭的幸福跟安全喔。本席要跟你討論的是，交通部目前有開發交通安全教學輔導軟體，但是結果這個數字讓我們有一點心慌。每一個生命都非常的寶貴，我們如何在政策方面能夠提升整體交通安全的意識跟行為？請教部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在教育的層面，我們5月1日會有一個新的軟體上架。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：5月1日會調整軟體。"],["陳部長世凱：對，5月1日會有新軟體會上架。我們也會跟教育部門，也就是教育部這邊來協調跟溝通，看小學、國中跟高中怎麼樣去接收這個軟體。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從根本觀念讓他們清楚，行為才能夠落實嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個務必要去加強。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後我給你一個功課，根據高速公路局的統計，1月份到3月份國道發生了36件火燒車事件，甚至在3月13日發生半聯結車火燒車事故，造成長達11公里的嚴重回堵，對於這個問題，我們必須謹慎之。同時本席又看到今年到3月底，我們國道A1死亡的交通事故當中，根據你們的統計，有高達六成二的肇因是分心跟疲勞駕駛。我們當然不希望這些事情發生，但是面對這樣嚴肅的議題，交通部除了呼籲民眾自律之外，還有什麼樣積極的防範措施，可以確保我們國道用路人生命財產的安全？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，我們也是不斷的在宣導，包括火燒車事故的部分，我們也在部的記者會裡面多予宣導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這一件事情，它會造成11公里的一個回堵，這是讓人很緊張的……"],["趙局長興華：我們現在比較頭痛的，就是那個用路的駕駛人沒有去注意他自己的車況……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你，有六成二的原因是分心跟疲勞駕駛，你明明知道這個原因，我們政府要怎麼去應對？本席認為你們在這個部分要討論怎麼樣去應對，不要再讓它發生。你現在知道原因，你當然要有方法。"],["趙局長興華：現在這邊大都是大車的部分，我們會跟客運業司機……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就今天的方案，你們研討之後給本席，一起來防止這些事件，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再跟委員報告。"],["主席：再提供書面資料給楊委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。接下來請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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劉主委委員好"},{"start":24.749,"end":46.32,"text":"兩位好,先請教主委,之前我揭發盧欣娜的弊案,持續在追蹤當初花了納稅人15億,說要去併購中國的酒地,搞了半天是被人家反向併購把台灣納稅人跟資本市場的錢拿去中國胡搞瞎搞結果這件事情已經起訴了,一審其實也判出來了"},{"start":47.335,"end":68.71,"text":"但我一直追查我發現很奇怪當初跟陳世修勾結的一個中國人叫做孫陽我一開始揭發弊案就點名他了啦他媽媽是中共的高幹那很奇怪啊這個被台灣通緝的人結果呢結果實際上面還在我們國發基金投資的盧新當董事"},{"start":69.898,"end":96.984,"text":"中國那邊實際上面營運他還是實際的負責人這件事情國發會應該有掌握了吧我上次有提醒過你這個我們有掌握了我們做了三件事情是第一個我們去函這個上市委公司的主管單位金管會請求他們表示意見第二個我們也找了律師然後呢我們也發函給蘆星公司要求撤換孫楊第三個部分我們預防將來撤換有問題我們也進行試骨"},{"start":99.945,"end":116.93,"text":"上一次啦,我當面跟主委提醒這件事啦我提醒完了以後,你們馬上就採取了動作,這件事情我是肯定啦但是我要跟主委講的事情喔,是說我們的國發基金啊,派去爐心的董事啊,是在睡覺嗎?是在睡覺嗎?這個事情要我講,你們才會發現,才會動"},{"start":125.376,"end":137.398,"text":"一個被台灣的法院通緝的中國通緝犯在我們國發基金投資的公司裡面繼續在中國那邊的營運當負責人妥當嗎?適合嗎?台灣人的錢已經被騙得這麼慘了抓不到這個中國人還繼續讓他負責中國那邊的業務錢太多"},{"start":150.404,"end":176.753,"text":"委員這個我們會去了解我們的董事有沒有清楚如果有的話我們會進行董事的更換一個禮拜之內回覆可以嗎沒有問題好謝謝第二個另外一個號稱我們國家投資了30億綠能國家隊不是只有國發基金藥花玻璃也有是希望能夠發展我們太陽能自主的產業"},{"start":178.53,"end":192.203,"text":"那當然投資的績效不好這個我們另外再討論啦投資前已經虧損上百億啊投資後繼續虧損上百億啊當初投資決策怎麼做的這個不是我今天要討論的重點"},{"start":193.752,"end":218.263,"text":"我今天要討論的重點是什麼當初我們扶植這個太陽能國家隊就是希望這些太陽能相關的產品電池能夠在台灣好好生產嘛那要不然怎麼叫太陽能國家隊當初成立了以後這個聯合再生的董事長還在媒體上面大聲疾呼啊說第三地的模組啊傾銷台灣啊將成為國安的隱憂啊"},{"start":221.479,"end":241.042,"text":"大陸的太陽能模組透過東南亞製造稀產地大量傾銷台灣啊這個會影響到台灣的什麼 國安隱憂啊這個是在2023年的時候啊他在媒體上面啊 大聲疾呼的內容啊他這樣大聲疾呼啊來請教一下國發會的主委 贊不贊成"},{"start":243.526,"end":264.358,"text":"我當時我還沒有進入政府但是我們當時如果從扶植台灣太陽能產業的角度來看我是贊成這樣的做法沒錯但是現在就是說計劃與支持之間的差異我們如何去彌補但是我今天要注意我們是善意投資人我今天不是經營之神等一下等一下"},{"start":267.04,"end":290.135,"text":"我今天要跟主委講的事情 不是前面那一趴啦 虧損的部分 那個我說另外再討論啦我先就這件事情來講 現在我看不懂為什麼對外面說的是一套 做的是另外一套 來看下一張我台灣的綠能國家隊 拿台灣人的錢去投資 講紓困可能太沉重"},{"start":291.397,"end":309.305,"text":"他要賣太陽能的電池要賣到土耳其結果竟然是從中國的上海出貨這件事情很奇怪啊是台灣人的太陽能電池先運到中國的上海然後再去土耳其還是直接就在賣中國的電池主委你認為咧"},{"start":311.062,"end":334.693,"text":"委員我跟你報告我不是檢調單位我又不是監理單位我只是投資單位但是我們沒有能力去做檢調的工作但是但是如果您有證據給我我跟上次的承諾一樣我一定去告發我希望你把證據給我這樣違法我一定做我們一件一件來啦現在我要告訴主委的事情是說第一個我們的台灣啊"},{"start":339.622,"end":367.21,"text":"太陽能的國家隊賣到外面的產品結果是在幫誰賣貨在幫中國賣貨這我沒有辦法接受這我沒有辦法接受這個是第一件事情我可以同意你的看法但是委員也請注意喔我之前就已經回應了我們已經在進行事故這是我們目前最好的解決方案但是如果有違法的證據主委我先跟你溝通一件事情啦"},{"start":367.89,"end":392.684,"text":"不要每一次都拿不同層次的事情來處理啦第一個 我今天要跟你表達的態度非常的清楚我看你今天的回應 你顯然是不知道沒有關係 我會站在這邊質詢就是公開提供檢舉資訊給你第二個 我現在要跟主委講的是啊這也不是什麼秘密啊 這已經是公開資訊了"},{"start":394.325,"end":416.48,"text":"這已經是公開資訊了但我懷疑的事情是什麼我懷疑的事情是說我們台灣的太陽能國家隊怎麼會在做這種事情下面還有其他的公開資訊我再給主委看JA Solar是哪一個國家的太陽能模組時間的關係我直接跟主委報告JA Solar是中國的太陽能是中國的太陽能模組"},{"start":423.602,"end":447.884,"text":"這個在經濟部上面全部都有登記那我現在就搞不清楚狀況我們的太陽能國家隊結果成立國家隊 號稱國家隊那個是上引號下引號那是台灣之光 台灣的驕傲結果我們的太陽能國家隊在做的事情是什麼淪為中國太陽能的模組代理商主委你贊成嗎"},{"start":450.061,"end":466.061,"text":"我們當時投資那個聯合再生的時候是希望再創台灣的太陽能產業當時的目的這是我們投資目的那這個結果不是我們樂見的不是你們樂見的嗎我們會去理解如果它違法我們一定會處理"},{"start":467.945,"end":478.789,"text":"現在喔有兩個層次啊一個是主委說剛所講的違法的層次嘛所以我就一直在問嘛我希望國發基金等一下等一下主委請你先聽我說完好兩個層次的問題主委我只是"},{"start":487.542,"end":508.864,"text":"我跟你就是溝通到現在我基本上是蠻尊敬你的對我也是因為我覺得你有擔當所以我是很善意的把這些資訊跟你講是我提醒兩件事情第一個你們那個國發基金派去聯合再生的董事提醒他一下這不是什麼秘密的事情"},{"start":510.075,"end":536.836,"text":"這全部都是公開資訊委員 正常的董事會不會討論到這麼細節的事情呢欸等一下喔但是我們國發基金派去聯合再生的董事他肩負的責任是什麼他肩負的責任董事裡面我們國家派去的董事這一點都不細欸這已經牽涉到你剛剛所講的欸沒有委員我從企業出來的這是不是有維持到國家政策的問題欸我從企業出來的喔董事會會依據董事會議程來討論跟開會"},{"start":539.707,"end":566.156,"text":"他不會去了解到每一個訂單的細節我再跟主委講這個不是訂單的細節這個是公開的資訊今天主委你願意請董事下去這本來就是應該他做的事情但是派去的董事就要有功能他如果能夠發揮功能的話就可以站在國家的立場不要讓這種丟人現眼的事情發生"},{"start":568.001,"end":578.941,"text":"怎麼會是我今天站在這邊質詢這件事情呢我很謝謝 我很佩服委員有這麼多的資訊管道我也謝謝你提供這些資訊給我我們一定會"},{"start":580.287,"end":606.874,"text":"以來做進行必要的處理時間的關係我不影響下一個委員諮詢的時間我只提醒一件事情我只提醒一件事情我們現在在面對的事情大家對習產地這件事情深惡痛絕的時候結果裡面竟然有我們自己國發基金投資的公司深陷其中這件事情對台灣的國際信譽會造成相當大的打擊"},{"start":607.774,"end":635.66,"text":"我希望國發會能夠非常嚴肅的面對這個課題可以嗎我們非常的嚴肅我們也依據上市委員的交代我們已經發文給所有的投資公司目前已經也收回了四十幾份資料我們已經跟您做一個報告我們會持續要求把這些這些廠商提出他們的切結書OK這是我們Best Can Do最後一件事聯合再生在做這件事情為什麼做這件事情一個禮拜之內給我回覆可以嗎"},{"start":637.002,"end":640.412,"text":"我們會去發文了解請他解釋OK好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時20分）謝謝主席！有請國發會主委、經濟部部長。"],["主席：郭部長、劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。先請教主委，之前我揭發如興的弊案且持續在追蹤，當初花了納稅人15億元說要去併購中國的玖地，搞了半天，是被人家反向併購，把臺灣納稅人跟資本市場的錢拿去中國胡搞瞎搞，這件事情已經起訴了，一審其實也宣判了，但我一直追查後發現很奇怪，當初跟陳仕修勾結的一個中國人叫做孫瑒，我一開始揭發弊案就點名他了，他媽媽是中共的高幹，很奇怪啊！這個被臺灣通緝的人結果實際上還在我們國發基金投資的如興當董事，還是中國那邊營運的實際負責人，這件事情國發會應該有掌握了吧？我上次有提醒過你。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們有掌握了，做了三件事情：第一個、我們去函上市公司的主管單位金管會，請求他們表示意見。第二個、我們直接找了律師，然後也發函給如興公司，要求撤換孫瑒。第三個、為了預防將來撤換有問題，我們也進行釋股。"],["黃委員國昌：上一次我當面跟主委提醒這件事，我提醒之後你們馬上就採取了動作，對此我是肯定啦！但是我要跟主委講的是，我們的國發基金派去如興的董事是在睡覺嗎？是在睡覺嗎？這個事情要我講你們才會發現、才會動，一個被臺灣的法院通緝的中國通緝犯，繼續在我們國發基金投資的公司裡擔任中國那邊營運負責人，妥當嗎？適合嗎？臺灣人的錢已經被騙得這麼慘了，抓不到這個中國人，還繼續讓他負責中國那邊的業務？錢太多喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去瞭解我們的董事是否清楚此事，如果有這種事情的話，我們會進行董事的更換。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內回覆，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝！","另外一個問題是號稱我們國家投資了30億的綠能國家隊，不是只有國發基金，耀華玻璃也有，目的是希望能夠發展我們太陽能自主的產業，當然投資的績效不好，投資前已經虧損上百億，投資後繼續虧損上百億，這個我們另外再討論，當初投資決策怎麼做的，不是我今天要討論的重點，我今天要討論的重點是當初我們扶植這個太陽能國家隊，就是希望這些太陽能相關的產品──電池能夠在臺灣好好生產嘛！要不然怎麼叫太陽能國家隊呢！當初成立了以後，這個「聯合再生」的董事長還在媒體上面大聲疾呼說第三地的模組傾銷台灣，將成為國安的隱憂，大陸的太陽能模組透過東南亞製造、洗產地，大量傾銷臺灣，這個會影響到臺灣的國安隱憂，這個是2023年他在媒體上面大聲疾呼的內容，對他這樣的大聲疾呼，請教一下國發會的主委，贊不贊成？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：當時我還沒有進入政府，但是如果從當年扶植臺灣太陽能產業的角度來看，我是贊成這樣的作法。"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在的問題是計畫與支持之間的差異我們如何去彌補跟提升，我們是善意投資人，不是經營之神。"],["黃委員國昌：但是我今天要跟主委講的不是前面那個虧損的部分，我說那個另外再討論，我先就這件事情來講，現在我看不懂，為什麼對外面說的是一套做的是另外一套？我們臺灣的綠能國家隊拿臺灣人的錢去投資，說是紓困可能太沉重，它要將太陽能的電池賣到土耳其，結果竟然是從中國的上海出貨，這件事情很奇怪啊！是臺灣出的太陽能電池先運到中國的上海然後再去土耳其？還是直接就在賣中國的電池？主委你認為咧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我跟你報告，我不是檢調單位也不是監理單位，我只是投資單位，我們沒有能力去做檢調的工作，但是如果您有證據給我，跟上次的承諾一樣，我一定去告發，所以我希望你把證據給我，若有違法，我一定做。"],["黃委員國昌：我們一件一件來，現在我要告訴主委的是第一個、我們臺灣的太陽能國家隊賣到外面的產品是在幫誰賣貨？結果是在幫中國賣貨，這我沒有辦法接受！這我沒有辦法接受！這個是第一件事情。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我可以同意你的看法，但是委員也請注意喔，我之前就已經回應了，我們已經在進行釋股，這是我們目前最好的解決方案，但是如果有違法證據，我們會進行處理。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，我先跟你溝通一件事情，不要每一次都拿不同層次的事情來處理啦！第一個、我今天要跟你表達的態度非常的清楚，我看你今天的回應，你顯然是不知道，這沒有關係，我會站在這邊質詢就是公開提供檢舉資訊給你。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我很謝謝你提供資訊給我。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個、我現在要跟主委講的事也不是什麼秘密，已經是公開的資訊了，但我懷疑的是我們臺灣的太陽能國家隊怎麼會在做這種事情，下面還有其他的公開資訊，我再給主委看看，JA Solar是哪一個國家的太陽能模組？限於時間，我直接跟主委報告，JA Solar是中國的太陽能模組，這個在經濟部上面全部都有登記，那我現在就搞不清楚狀況啦！我們成立了有上引號和下引號號稱「國家隊」的太陽能國家隊，那是臺灣之光！臺灣的驕傲！結果我們的太陽能國家隊在做的事情是什麼？淪為中國太陽能模組的代理商！主委你贊成嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們當時投資「聯合再生」的時候，是希望再創臺灣的太陽能產業，這是我們投資的目的，那這個結果不是我們樂見的。"],["黃委員國昌：不是你們樂見的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去理解，如果它有違法，我們一定會處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在有兩個層次，一個是主委剛才講的違法層次，所以我就一直在問嘛！我希望國發基金……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是現在很明顯違反了我們投資的目的，那因為違反我們投資的目的，所以我們也會進行處理。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！主委，兩個層次的問題，我跟你溝通到現在，基本上我是滿尊敬你的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我也是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我覺得你有擔當，所以我是很善意的把這些資訊告知你。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：非常感謝！"],["黃委員國昌：我提醒你兩件事情，第一個是提醒一下你們國發基金派去聯合再生的董事，這不是什麼秘密的事情，這全部都是公開的資訊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，正常的董事會不會討論到這麼細節的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下喔！我們國發基金派去聯合再生的董事肩負的責任是什麼？他是董事會裡面我們國家派去的董事，這一點都不細耶！這已經牽涉到你剛剛所講的維持到國家政策的問題耶！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是從企業出來的，董事會依據董事會議程來討論跟開會，他不會去瞭解到每一個訂單的細節。"],["黃委員國昌：我再跟主委講，這個不是訂單的細節……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是我很謝謝您今天這個提醒。"],["黃委員國昌：這是公開的資訊，今天，主委你願意請董事下去，這本來就應該是他做的事情，派去的董事就要有功能嘛！他如果能夠發揮功能的話，就可以站在國家的立場，不要讓這種丟人現眼的事情發生啊！怎麼會是我今天站在這邊質詢這件事情呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我很佩服委員有這麼多的資訊管道，我也謝謝你提供這些資訊給我，我們一定會進行必要的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我不影響下一個委員質詢的時間，我只提醒一件事情，我只提醒一件事情，我們現在面對的事情，大家對洗產地這件事情深惡痛絕的時候，結果裡面竟然有我們自己國發基金投資的公司深陷其中，這件事情對臺灣的國際信譽會造成相當大的打擊，我希望國發會能夠非常嚴肅地面對這個課題，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們非常地嚴肅，我們也依據上次委員的交代，我們已經發文給所有的投資公司，目前也已經收回了四十幾份資料，我們已經跟您做一個報告，我們會持續要求這些廠商提出他們的切結書。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。最後一件事，聯合再生在做這件事情，為什麼做這件事情？一個禮拜之內給我回覆，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去發文瞭解，請他解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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何市長那你們貿易署是不是透過這兩個方式來確定避免中國洗產地"},{"start":245.412,"end":261.827,"text":"監測貿易量然後簽發原產地證明那請問這個主管機關管理機關陳部長這就你的囉如何協助查處公司的物流金流2018年到現在自貿區查獲違規運轉43件罰了多少錢是不是你們罰的違規的轉運是海關是海關罰的是關務署罰的是不是"},{"start":271.703,"end":296.192,"text":"跟吳委員報告一下是海關去查核發現不核的話我們會依請誰裁罰對誰裁罰應該是交通部因為我們是依照自貿港區那個管理條例的法令來處罰啦好來處罰那誰裁罰你看就是這樣來了發財主是我們海關來發沒有錯但是法據是交通部交通部主管陳部長你的責任來了嚴重的話可不可以廢止許可"},{"start":297.372,"end":316.989,"text":"可以有沒有廢止許可過到目前沒有所以說這件事情誰統籌市交通部統籌部長接下來中國新產地的事情有公務署有貿易署但是港口的部分是交通部市交通部承諾要防止自貿區洗產地可以嗎好謝謝接下來很快的進行兩個題目來"},{"start":319.005,"end":346.776,"text":"天然氣進口我們知道本來是跟澳洲卡達美國買的少現在跟美國買請問部長你認為接下來澳洲的天然氣要賣給誰這個我不曉得不曉得來澳洲會怎麼做來往下看澳洲都會想說我天然氣銷量少了我跟太陽能我來做什麼做濾清我可以高溫裂解碳補濾之後呢我變藍青太陽能光電電解水濾青然後我透過液態氫或液態氨的方式出口台灣需不需要"},{"start":348.786,"end":353.517,"text":"所以如果我們跟澳洲買天然氣澳洲轉型做綠青藍青我們跟澳洲買不買買怎麼運來台灣"},{"start":357.725,"end":384.446,"text":"好往下看這是對這是陸特丹陸特丹作為歐洲對歐洲未來的能源港生產進口管道運輸加清站他都一併的準備了所以接下來會做什麼事情往下看所以呢港區要對應各種燃料現在請我們的航港局請我們的陽明海運請我們的港務公司告訴我先請問陽明海運長榮訂了多少的多燃料產長榮"},{"start":388.069,"end":397.566,"text":"還沒有這出現長榮訂的船要問陽明我要問他同業競爭啊長榮訂了多少艘不同的非傳統燃料船"},{"start":400.238,"end":422.199,"text":"18艘啦是艘什麼的都是Methyl對就是多元燃料所以未來我們的港口進來的船舶會多元燃料卸載的也是多元的能源請問一下這些多元能源要不要專用管路不管是氫不管是鞍還是液化天然氣要專用的儲槽陳部長您的港口準備好了沒有"},{"start":423.158,"end":449.858,"text":"報告委員您現在提醒之後我們來想辦法準備好謝謝我不只現在才提醒我過去提醒來李董事長我有沒有問過你那個跟夏業委員報告一下這兩種目前在船的話就是LNG跟MISO那MISO比較少但LNG的話我們目前是在台中港來配合還有永安這邊那目前好來問幾句何市長你們天然氣結構站可以接收安可以接收清嗎"},{"start":451.189,"end":470.696,"text":"你們現在籌備的天然氣接收站可以接收安可以接收清嗎經濟部你們只能接收LNG天然氣啦因為這三者的議題的費點不一樣所以管線也要不一樣所以我要提醒陳部長經濟部的天然氣接收站要怎麼去配合經濟部的事情但是請交通部可不可以責成港務局"},{"start":471.767,"end":487.969,"text":"航港局港務公司還有你們所屬的可以指導的陽明海運盡快的對多元燃料船還有港部地區的管路儲槽跟槽車往下看進行準備並且一個月提出書面報告可以嗎可以好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1361,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時4分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。先請交通部陳部長、經濟部何次長和財政部謝次長，後半段要請航港局的葉局長、港務公司的李董事長和陽明的蔡董事長準備。"],["主席：好，請陳部長，還有政次。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、兩位次長好。今天我的題目是「零關稅同盟不僅杜絕洗產地，應對各種燃料建置管路儲槽」，我們先看零關稅同盟圍堵中國後會產生什麼結果？首先，中美雙方高關稅，貨物就先不流通了，但是美國要求跟他的去中自由貿易同盟，包括日本、臺灣、韓國、歐盟、加拿大，組成一個零關稅自由同盟，而這些國家跟中國之間，美國要求你特殊商品要貿易管制，甚至也不排除要求對中國提高關稅。陳部長，為什麼美國會有這些要求？為什麼會有這些要求？"],["陳部長世凱：他大概對於整體生產鏈過去的狀況是不滿意的，他希望改變整個生產鏈的狀態。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就是要嚴防中國製品透過供應鏈從臺灣銷到美國，對不對？現在兩國的關稅已經到145%、125%了。但是如果中國貨透過在臺灣組裝，再用零關稅同盟過去，這是美國要防止的。","何次長，經濟部是不是採取了這五大作為，來防止洗產地？"],["何次長晉滄：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括監測、宣導、從嚴裁罰、建立名單，還有反傾銷？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是吧，好，謝謝。但是我們來談一個，請部長看一下，自由貿易港區的貨物原則上可以直接進出，不需核准，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長世凱：是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以呢，我們在2024年自由貿易港的進出口突破3兆元，貨櫃有300萬個，但是我們看一下，如果是在自由貿易港區，中國貨來到臺灣組裝，或者從自由貿易港再出去，有沒有可能？又或者他中轉到其他國家，如越南，再來臺組裝後再出去，有沒有可能？","其中我知道這裡有兩件事情，第一，自由貿易港進口的貨物再出去，必須加值35%，或是形態有轉型。謝次長，是不是這樣子？"],["謝次長鈴媛：不管是不是經由自由貿易港區……"],["鍾委員佳濱：都要這樣子？"],["謝次長鈴媛：要取得MIT，一定要在臺灣加值35%以上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那請告訴我們，怎麼防止中國貨中轉入臺？"],["謝次長鈴媛：這個部分，我們跟經濟部貿易署其實最近有一些強化措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：何次長，有什麼強化措施？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們會密切監控從大陸來的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就剛剛那5點？"],["何次長晉滄：對，那幾點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳部長，現在自貿區的主力貨物是哪些？"],["陳部長世凱：電子產品為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：電子、生醫、自行車組裝，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：2025年還要加上臺北港智慧車輛園區，但是我們要怎麼樣在哪些產品上防止中國洗產地呢？有沒有？哪些要防止中國洗產地？","這裡面，桃園航空自由貿易港區貢獻2.4兆元，提示一下，2018年到2024年經濟部根據自由港條例第十六條，到歐盟、英國跟美國的自行車、電動輔助自行車、鋁製輪胎圈，還有部分的鋼鐵製品，要先行核准。為什麼要先行核准？因為最容易被洗產地。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以自貿港的確可能是個洗產地的破口，那請問自貿區怎麼防止洗產地？","謝次長，你過去任職過關務稅，是不是有這兩個作法：查核貨物帳務的電腦連線、認定進口物的原產地，是不是這樣？"],["謝次長鈴媛：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，何次長，那你們貿易署是不是透過這兩個方式來確定，避免中國洗產地？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：監測貿易量，然後簽發原產地證明。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請問主管的管理機關，陳部長，這就是你的囉。如何協助查阻公司的物流、金流？2018年到現在，自貿區查獲違規轉運43件，罰了多少錢？是不是你們罰的？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，違規的轉運是海關。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是海關罰的，是關務署罰的？是不是？"],["謝次長鈴媛：跟委員報告，是海關去查核，發現不合的話，我們會移請……"],["鍾委員佳濱：誰裁罰？"],["謝次長鈴媛：應該是交通部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：欸？"],["謝次長鈴媛：因為我們是依照自貿港區管理條例的法令來處罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那誰來裁罰？你看，就是這樣來了。"],["謝次長鈴媛：發裁處書是我們海關來發，沒有錯，但是法據是交通部自貿港區管理條例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，發裁處書是你們發，但法規是交通部主管，陳部長，你的責任來了，嚴重的話，可不可以廢止許可？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以。到目前有沒有廢止許可過？"],["陳部長世凱：到目前沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有。所以這件事情誰統籌？是不是交通部統籌。部長，接下來中國洗產地的事情，相關的有關務署、有貿易署，但是港口的部分是交通部，所以請交通部承諾要防止自貿區洗產地，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。接下來很快進行兩個題目，天然氣進口，我們知道本來是跟澳洲、卡達買，跟美國買得少，現在跟美國買。請問部長，你認為接下來澳洲的天然氣要賣給誰？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我不曉得。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不曉得。好，我們現在看澳洲會怎麼做？澳洲會想說他的天然氣銷量少了，跟太陽能可以來做什麼？做綠氫，在高溫裂解、碳捕捉之後，變藍氫，太陽能──光電，變成電解水之後變綠氫，然後透過液態氫或液態氨的方式出口，臺灣需不需要？所以如果我們跟澳洲買天然氣，澳洲轉型做綠氫、藍氫，我們跟澳洲買不買？買！怎麼運來臺灣？"],["陳部長世凱：船運。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。鹿特丹做為歐洲未來的能源港，生產、進口、管道、運輸、加氫站，它都一併的準備了，所以接下來會做什麼事情？港區需要對應各種燃料，現在請航港局、陽明海運、港務公司告訴我，先請問陽明海運，長榮訂了多少燃料船？還沒有出現？"],["陳部長世凱：長榮訂的船要問陽明喔？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要問他，同業競爭啊！"],["陳部長世凱：好、好、好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：長榮訂了多少艘不同的非傳統燃料船？18艘，是燒什麼的？"],["蔡董事長豐明：都是methanol。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是多元燃料，所以未來我們港口進來的船舶會是載運多元燃料，卸載的也是多元能源。請問這些多元能源要不要專用管路？不管是氫，不管是氨，還是液化天然氣，要有專用的儲槽。陳部長，您的港口準備好了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您現在提醒之後，我們來想辦法準備。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我不只現在才提醒，我過去就有提醒。李董事長，我有沒有問過你？"],["李董事長賢義：跟委員報告，這有兩種，目前在船的話，就是LNG跟VL，methanol比較少。LNG目前在臺中港配合，還有永安這邊，目前高雄港……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我來問經濟部何次長，你們天然氣接收站可以接收氨、可以接收氫嗎？你們現在籌備的天然氣接收站可以接收氨、可以接收氫嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們只能接收LNG（天然氣）啦！"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為這三種液體的沸點不一樣，所以管線也要不一樣。所以我要提醒陳部長，經濟部的天然氣接收站要怎麼去配合，是經濟部的事情，但是交通部可不可以責成航港局、港務公司，還有你們所屬的、可以指導的陽明海運，盡快對多元燃料船還有港埠地區的管路、儲槽跟槽車進行準備，並且一個月提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["李董事長賢義：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接下來請李坤城委員、李坤城委員、李坤城委員不在。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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結果呢"},{"start":232.488,"end":252.856,"text":"110年要到117年原來的計畫現在又要延長到120年的12月總共要10年7個月要去跟北迴鐵路來比的話那真的是難道現在的科技工程技術都退步了嗎"},{"start":254.967,"end":279.847,"text":"所以這個部分 何況現在又有鐵道集 以前沒有鐵道集以前是臺灣省政府交通處喔北威鐵路的時候 臺灣省政府交通處我過去在省政府當公務員很長的時間好 生活圈道路 我們就先講前面的 部長"},{"start":281.294,"end":308.99,"text":"真的是要去跟行政院溝通協調跟行政院組織總組其實就是經費的問題啦經費的投入沒有投入那麼多嘛所以只好展延展延嘛這是事實嘛我在中央也服務了十年了這個就是預算的分配的問題嘛"},{"start":311.058,"end":337.5,"text":"預算被刪 被凍啊不是 部長這樣說就錯了凍結可以解凍現在凍結的理由 既然講到這個現在行政院之所以要求各部會不把解凍案送到立法院就是因為什麼 理由是說通案刪減的問題其實通案刪減是立法院的"},{"start":338.762,"end":367.668,"text":"幾十年來的慣例而且是就是授權就是授權給行政院各部會通案刪減你要刪哪個地方這授權何況解凍的條件這麼明確所以這個部分部長我們不要太政治我們就是要解決民生的問題尤其是要跟行政院跟行政院主席總書長我們要送為了交通"},{"start":369.131,"end":392.586,"text":"我們要送解凍案 好不好 加油最後 一計畫就好生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫 時間的關係請把歷年來 過去執行到現在到花蓮台東的就好了 花蓮台東的提供給我好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1345,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時57分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：好，交通部陳部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長辛苦了。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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我請部長還有觀光署好 陳部長 周署長是兩位早 我想剛剛大家都在討論到底川普的關稅政策會不會對台灣尤其是觀光造成什麼影響"},{"start":21.555,"end":40.921,"text":"報告委員我這個影響到目前為止還看不太出來因為我們不是貨物啦所以重點是服務服務就變成是我們的強項了重點是觀光署設定今年要到一千萬那第一季看起來是目前推估是兩百一十萬所以部長年底一千萬有信心嗎"},{"start":41.821,"end":58.327,"text":"報告委員我其實一直針對這個數字的部分我覺得重點是把台灣的觀光體質做好做好服務做好來了要覺得還想再來是沒有錯重點是觀光署還有台鐵現在都很認真的在推所謂的鐵道經濟鐵道觀光"},{"start":60.228,"end":85.86,"text":"然後因為我也有很多國際友人問我來台灣要玩什麼我們就會推薦他去看去坐台鐵最新的作為鐵道觀光所以部長你知道現在鐵道觀光有多少的觀光列車你覺得狀況好不好目前看起來都還不錯還不錯 包含明日號 海豐 山蘭狀況都還不錯那4月3號那個明日號出軌是怎麼回事出軌的部分我請台鐵來回應所以狀況就是沒事"},{"start":86.992,"end":101.777,"text":"我跟委員報告那一天的出軌主要是我們那個整木整木的部分因為那邊是木整所以管理看到明日後我們就會覺得我們的觀光會受到影響因為觀光客會看新聞會聽會問"},{"start":104.719,"end":117.88,"text":"同樣的 部長我現在要跟你探討 我跟觀光署跟台鐵調資料我們這些觀光列車從來沒有統計過國內旅客跟國外旅客的區別 是嗎"},{"start":119.332,"end":148.295,"text":"你知不知道有多少國外旅客來做相關的有嗎那為什麼你們回覆給我們說沒有咧國內外旅客有沒有區分有我們現在因為有委我們的觀光列車經營模式的委託是EU網那他們也都有統計國外旅客的比例沒有啊你10月25號才回我說沒有統計分沒有國內旅客跟國外旅客的區別這樣子是怎樣就是給我的資料都是錯的沒有我們總共的旅資有的話給我們資料第二個平日"},{"start":149.494,"end":169.111,"text":"才是重點是外國觀光客來坐我們的觀光列車嘛因為國人就是假日去坐了嘛所以平日需要更多的國外觀光客第一你要知道是誰我的朋友從國外過來坐我請他去坐這個觀光列車他跟我講兩個缺點第一個是有部分幾乎沒有外語服務人員"},{"start":170.985,"end":199.184,"text":"這件事情沒有外語服務人員目前為止觀光署台鐵是說這是營運商的問題部長啊這不會是營運商的問題這是你觀光署中華民國交通部我們要提供什麼樣的觀光列車這個不會是廠商的問題好嗎我們應該要讓國外旅客來台灣是我請他們去做結果他跟我說他看不懂中文他沒有任何的外語服務人員這是第一個問題第二個部分就是剛剛看到的就是啊"},{"start":200.307,"end":210.657,"text":"老舊啦 我們的車看起來目前為止 林日浩將近他都要用兩個車頭來拉 是嗎部長知道嗎幾個車頭 這個我是不曉得他用兩個車頭來拉 為什麼因為他的車頭 從33年到45年"},{"start":221.823,"end":247.935,"text":"的年紀都很大了部長我們如果說明日號是台灣最美的觀光列車它是台灣最棒的頂級的旅遊而且我們收費非常的貴但是我們提供的服務我感覺台鐵只是要做資產活化啦它沒有要做真正的頂級觀光啦也就是說這麼舊的東西管理上面我同意拿舊的廢棄物要拿來做"},{"start":248.675,"end":271.876,"text":"我同意但是你可不可以做得好一點包委員我們之後會針對明日號的部分我們會換EMU不是只有明日號你現在所有都是拿舊車來改我們現在會拿E500的這個車頭新的車頭來做是第二個搭乘率剛剛講的搭乘率部長我看到新聞是說平均載客到九成"},{"start":272.717,"end":282.802,"text":"有這麼好嗎你知道現在載客率多少嗎載客率我不清楚但我所知道的是他營運的狀況還不錯還不錯我現在跟你說環島直興載客率30%藍皮節優化60%明日號現在也掉到50%"},{"start":288.465,"end":308.081,"text":"只有一個最新最夯的海豐號大概有九成所以不要拿一個最好的狀況來欺騙交通部啦觀光署我希望觀光列車我們覺得很好鐵道迷都很想來台灣我們也希望他們來台灣看到是台灣優質的服務好的車廂好的服務可是現在看起來就是"},{"start":308.982,"end":336.619,"text":"很舊然後我們做得很漂亮 收很貴的錢但是對他們來說會不會想再來 要想一下部長如果觀光經濟你現在還要成立什麼觀光研訓院這些東西不是只有去外面做大外宣啊東西不好人家不會再來啦要把職做好是 所以我希望就我剛剛問的這幾個問題第一個車頭年限過高第二個搭乘率現在有什麼解救的方法"},{"start":337.239,"end":358.032,"text":"如果假日我知道假日其實一票難求因為國人會去國旅但是我們平日需要大量的國際觀光客這一點看起來目前為止一直在下滑所以你說經營的不錯是沒錯有一些縣不錯有一些縣很不好最重要的是如果還有這種出軌啦拖軌啦然後甚至之前還聽說什麼有"},{"start":359.813,"end":378.984,"text":"漏掛一台車廂啦有的沒有的啦台鐵的狀況真的很多好嗎部長我只希望說如果你連搭乘率都不知道或者是連他們管理的方式都不知道的話我覺得你也很難去督導他們所以我希望這兩件事觀光署成效你可能要仔細的看一下第二個台鐵"},{"start":380.084,"end":403.2,"text":"這是管理的問題這絕對不是我希望不是只有單純你如果國際觀光要把觀光拉起來不會只是他們兩個單位的事好嗎好部長一個月之內給我一個改善的計畫或者是剛剛我講的這些問題你們有沒有什麼因應之道包括你的車頭要換什麼時候換 換什麼第二個國際旅客跟國外旅客的統計不要再用數字來騙我好嗎好謝謝好 謝謝副委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1276,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時50分）謝謝主席，我請部長，還有觀光署。"],["主席：好，陳部長、周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位早。剛剛大家都在討論到底川普的關稅政策會不會對臺灣，尤其是觀光造成什麼影響？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個影響到目前為止……"],["黃委員珊珊：還不知道？"],["陳部長世凱：還看不太出來。兩個指標跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，因為我們不是貨物，所以重點是服務，服務就變成是我們的強項了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：重點是觀光署設定今年要到1,000萬，第一季目前推估是210萬，所以部長，年底1,000萬有信心嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實針對這個數字的部分，我覺得重點是把臺灣的觀光體質做好、服務做好。"],["黃委員珊珊：來了要覺得還想再來。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：重點是，觀光署還有臺鐵現在都很認真地在推鐵道觀光。"],["陳部長世凱：鐵道觀光。"],["黃委員珊珊：我也有很多國際友人問我來臺灣要玩什麼？我就會推薦他去坐臺鐵最新的鐵道觀光。所以部長你知道現在鐵道觀光有多少的觀光列車？你覺得狀況好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：目前看起來都還不錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：還不錯。"],["陳部長世凱：包含鳴日號、海風號、山嵐號狀況都還不錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：那4月3號鳴日號出軌是怎麼回事？"],["陳部長世凱：出軌的部分我請臺鐵來回應。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以狀況就是沒事？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，那一天的出軌主要是枕木的部分，因為那邊是木枕，有一點腐蝕的問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以管理得好……"],["伍代理董事長勝園：現在我們要抽換……"],["黃委員珊珊：看到鳴日號就會覺得我們的觀光會受到影響，因為觀光客會看新聞、會聽、會問。同樣的部長，我要跟你探討，我有跟觀光署和臺鐵調資料，這些觀光列車從來沒有統計過國內旅客跟國外旅客的區別，是嗎？你知道有多少國外旅客來做相關的……"],["陳部長世凱：應該是有吧！臺鐵應該有。"],["黃委員珊珊：有嗎？那為什麼你們回復給我們說沒有，國內外旅客有沒有區分？"],["馮總經理輝昇：有，我們現在觀光列車的經營模式都有委託雄獅、易遊網。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["馮總經理輝昇：他們也都有統計國外旅客的比例。"],["黃委員珊珊：你10月25號才回我沒有統計區分國內跟國外旅客的區別。"],["馮總經理輝昇：好，這部分我再回去……"],["黃委員珊珊：這樣子是怎樣？給我的資料都是錯的。"],["馮總經理輝昇：沒有，我們總共的旅次大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：有的話給我們資料。"],["馮總經理輝昇：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，平日的重點才是外國觀光客坐觀光列車，因為國人是假日去坐，所以平日需要更多的國外觀光客。第一，你要知道是誰。我的朋友從國外回來我請他去坐觀光列車，他跟我講了兩個缺點，第一個是幾乎沒有外語服務人員。"],["陳部長世凱：車上沒有外語服務人員。"],["黃委員珊珊：目前觀光署和臺鐵回復這是營運商的問題。部長，這不是營運商的問題，這是中華民國交通部，觀光署要提供什麼樣的觀光列車，這不會是廠商的問題，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們應該要讓國外旅客來臺灣旅遊……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我請他們去坐，結果他看不懂中文，也沒有任何外語服務人員，這是第一個問題。第二個部分是看起來老舊，目前為止鳴日號將近都要用兩個車頭來拉，是嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：幾個車頭這個我是不曉得。"],["黃委員珊珊：它用兩個車頭來拉，為什麼？"],["馮總經理輝昇：互為備援。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為它的車頭從33年到45年，年紀都很大。部長，如果說鳴日號是臺灣最美的觀光列車，它是臺灣最棒的頂級旅遊，而且我們收費非常貴，但是我們提供的服務，我感覺臺鐵只是要做資產活化，沒有要做真正的頂級觀光。老舊的東西在管理上面，我同意拿舊的廢棄物來做，但是可不可以做得好一點？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對鳴日號的部分我們之後會換……"],["黃委員珊珊：不是只有鳴日號，現在所有的都是拿舊車來改。"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在會拿E500新的車頭來做，已經交了。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，第二個搭乘率。部長，新聞是說平均載客率達九成，有這麼好嗎？你知道現在載客率多少嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：載客率我不清楚，但我知道它營運狀況還不錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：還不錯？環島之星載客率30%、藍皮解憂號60%、鳴日號也掉到50%，只有一個最新、最夯的海風號大概有九成。所以不要拿一個最好的狀況來欺騙交通部。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：觀光署，觀光列車我們覺得很好，鐵道迷都很想來臺灣，我們也希望他們來臺灣看到是臺灣優質的服務、好的車廂、好的服務。可是現在看起來很舊，我們做得很漂亮，收很貴的錢，但是對他們來說會不會再來，要再想一下。部長，如果觀光經濟，你現在還要成立觀光研訓院，這些東西不是只有去外面做大外宣。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：東西不好，人不會再來。"],["陳部長世凱：要把質做好。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。我希望這幾個問題：第一個，車頭年限過高，第二個，搭乘率，現在你有什麼解救的方法？我知道其實假日一票難求，因為國人會去國旅，但是平日需要大量的國際觀光客，這一點看起來，目前為止一直在下滑。所以你說經營得不錯，是沒錯，有一些線不錯，有一些線很不好。最重要的是如果還有出軌、脫軌，甚至聽說有漏掛一台車廂等等，臺鐵狀況真的很多。部長，如果你連搭乘率或者連他們管理的方式都不知道的話，我覺得你也很難去督導他們。所以我希望你做兩件事，觀光署的成效你可能要仔細的看一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個臺鐵是管理的問題。如果要把國際觀光拉起來，絕對不是只有它們兩個單位的事，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，一個月內給我一個改善計畫，剛剛我講的這些問題，你們有沒有什麼因應之道，包括車頭什麼時候要換、換什麼；第二個，國際旅客跟國外旅客的統計，不要再用數字來騙我，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長好 陳部長 楊局長"},{"start":15.897,"end":35.682,"text":"部長部長局長午安委員好因應新的這個財務法的相關這個通過之後對於後續的軌道建設是否會造成什麼樣的影響在此我想來就教我們部長首先就是我們這個宜蘭鐵路高架的部分那在去年的10月22號總諮詢的時候"},{"start":38.164,"end":50.893,"text":"本席也曾經詢問過部長針對宜蘭的鐵路高架是否可以在兩年內來動工那當時部長您有回覆就是說盡量會努力在兩年內來動工"},{"start":53.194,"end":70.732,"text":"那在行政院核定之後就會進入設計規劃的部分並且會努力在10年內來完工那我想先請教部長就針對這個部分我們的期程會不會改變是 報告委員這個部分你也相當關心那你也一直在督促說這個速度要加快"},{"start":71.252,"end":95.513,"text":"那對交通部這邊的立場來說我們當然希望速度也要加快所以這個部分其實鐵道局前面該做的前置準備也都做了那跟地方的溝通其實也有在溝通當中那最後還是要等院那邊的核定啦所以這個過程我們還是盡量以快速的方式來完成好那因為這個之前我也請教過楊局長那在"},{"start":96.454,"end":122.889,"text":"今年上半年一定要獲得這個核定才能夠順利在明年開始來動工那我想這部分是不是我們後續還是請我們部長跟局長我們繼續加把勁能夠督促我們行政院這邊是不是可以盡快來核定並壓縮後續的期程以確保明年得以如期來動工這部分再拜託部長跟局長那另外高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分這個"},{"start":125.814,"end":139.373,"text":"高鐵東延宜蘭南延屏東這是我們台灣環島高鐵的一個必經路廊那現在不做未來就會後悔這也是大家目前所看到的一個"},{"start":140.071,"end":162.208,"text":"一個情形那我相信相關的這個期程已經都在進行當中包括我們現在環境影響評估已經進入二階的部分也預計可能會在五月初跟七月初來進行這個環評的初審那也希望能夠在八月順利把這個環評能夠通過那針對這個部分我們的期程有沒有改變"},{"start":163.56,"end":183.874,"text":"報告委員我們騎乘上是沒有改變不過也要拜託委員幫忙一下地方如果還有一些意見的話也要幫忙溝通一下我們也有最近從媒體有看到說有些地方很像提出了一些意見那這個部分當然鐵道局會積極來溝通那不過也要拜託委員如果可以的話地方上我們一起協助溝通讓未來的環評的這個時程可以"},{"start":185.695,"end":207.815,"text":"照我們原本原定的時間下去進行好那個地方分歧的聲音我們會去消弭我們會希望說大家能夠有一個共識就是朝向這個高鐵的部分能夠盡快來動工的目標來前進是我們朝這個方向努力那之前這個114年就是今年的1月22日有曾經召開過鐵道局召開過這個會議與縣政府討論這個"},{"start":212.299,"end":228.996,"text":"達成一個共識就是行政契約共識那已經委有這個縣政府在委辦當中那我想請教就是針對最後的確定這個高鐵特區會劃定幾公頃的部分這部分是不是已經有一個比較明確的一個目標"},{"start":230.946,"end":256.65,"text":"這跟委員報告這個我們已經完成委託宜蘭縣政府辦理都市計畫規劃作業所以特區的實際上的規模其實要經過都市計畫的程序才能夠做確定那當然大家都有一些建議有的希望建議大一點或者是什麼樣的一個情況那我想這個要等宜蘭縣政府完成這個都計的規劃跟後續的都計的審議程序才能夠做最終的確定"},{"start":257.19,"end":267.758,"text":"好那這部分也是請我們鐵道局就是積極的跟這個縣政府來做對話我們除了提供經費也會積極跟宜蘭縣政府這邊來做相互的配合跟協調可以盡快讓這個"},{"start":271.146,"end":292.125,"text":"範圍確定的話我相信這也對後續高鐵要推動的過程裡面會更加的順遂那另外就是那個南陽大橋跟葛馬蘭大橋的部分我想請教部長就是針對這個部分因為葛馬蘭大橋預計是118年要完工南陽大橋是119年那這個部分這個工程的期程有沒有改變"},{"start":293.147,"end":308.232,"text":"目前跟委員報告目前因為現在都在做相關的設計那因為設計的作業大概都要到明年才會完成那設計完成之後我想我們就會找相關的經費來發包目前還是照委員剛所提到的那個期程來進行這樣子"},{"start":309.445,"end":338.805,"text":"好那因為其中那個南陽大橋的部分因為這個鐵路高架的部分後來發現那個橋樑也要做我們鐵道的橋樑要改建所以增加60億的部分這個預算應該也沒問題吧因為這個設計之後的話會整體的那個這個計畫的經費我們會把它就說要把它納進去不過因為相關的因為這個工程的經費都要滾動檢討到我們的省道的改善計畫經費內所以還要再做一些檢討"},{"start":339.625,"end":351.325,"text":"好 那以上就請我們部長跟兩位局長能夠積極的來協助我們宜蘭近早讓我們宜蘭相關的這些軌道建設還有交通建設能夠提升謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝局長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1242,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時44分）謝謝主席。有請陳部長，還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：好，陳部長、楊局長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長、局長午安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：因應新的財劃法通過之後，我想請教部長，對於後續軌道建設是否會造成什麼影響？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：首先是宜蘭鐵路高架化的部分，在去年10月22號總質詢的時候，本席也曾經詢問過部長，針對宜蘭的鐵路高架是否可以在兩年內動工？當時部長您有回復儘量努力在兩年內動工。在行政院核定後，就會進入設計規劃的部分，並且會努力在10年內完工。我想請教部長，針對這個部分的期程會不會改變？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分你也相當關心，也一直督促速度要加快。對交通部的立場來說，我們當然希望速度要加快，所以鐵道局該做的前置準備也都做了，跟地方也有在溝通當中。最後還是要等行政院的核定，這個過程我們還是儘量以快速的方式來完成。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。之前我也請教過楊局長，在今年上半年一定要獲得核定，才能夠順利在明年開始動工。我想後續的部分，請部長跟局長繼續加把勁督促行政院儘快核定，並壓縮後續的期程，以確保明年可以如期動工。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分，高鐵東延宜蘭，南延屏東，是臺灣環島高鐵的一個必經路廊。現在不做，未來就會後悔，這也是大家目前所看到的情形。我相信相關的期程已經都在進行當中，包括現在環境影響評估已經進入第二階段，預計會在5月初跟7月初進行環評的初審，也希望能夠在8月順利通過環評。針對這個部分的期程有沒有改變？"],["陳部長世凱：期程上是沒有改變。不過也要拜託委員，如果地方還有一些意見的話，也要幫忙溝通一下。我們最近從媒體上看到有些地方橫向提出了一些意見，這個部分鐵道局當然會積極溝通，不過也要拜託委員。如果可以的話，在地方上我們一起協助溝通，未來讓環評的時程可以按照原定的時間進行。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。地方分歧的聲音，我們會去消弭。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們也希望大家能夠有共識，朝向高鐵儘快動工的目標前進。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們朝這個方向努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，今年（114）年1月22日鐵道局與縣政府召開會議討論並達成共識，就是行政契約共識，已經委由縣政府委辦。我想請教針對最後高鐵特區會劃定幾公頃的部分，是不是已經有一個明確的目標？"],["楊局長正君：好，跟委員報告，我們已經委託宜蘭縣政府辦理都市計畫規劃作業。"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["楊局長正君：所以特區實際的規模，要經過都市計畫的程序才能確定。當然大家都有一些建議，有的希望大一點或其他建議，這要等宜蘭縣政府完成都計規劃跟後續都計的審議程序，才能做最終的確定。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，請鐵道局積極地跟縣政府來對話。"],["楊局長正君：是，我們除了提供經費，也會積極跟宜蘭縣政府相互配合及協調。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，可以儘快確定範圍的話，我相信對高鐵後續的推動過程會更加順遂。另外，我想請教部長，針對蘭陽大橋跟噶瑪蘭大橋的部分，噶瑪蘭大橋預計是118年完工，蘭陽大橋是119年，這個工程的期程有沒有改變？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，目前都在做相關的設計，大概要到明年才會完成設計作業，等設計完成之後我們就會找相關的經費來發包，目前還是照委員剛所提到的期程來進行。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，其中蘭陽大橋因為鐵路高架化，後來發現鐵道上的橋樑也要改建，所以增加60億預算的部分，應該沒問題吧？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為設計之後，我們會納入整體計畫的經費，不過因為相關工程的經費必須滾動檢討並納入省道改善計畫的經費內，所以還要再做一些檢討。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，請部長跟兩位局長能夠積極協助宜蘭。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：儘早讓宜蘭的軌道建設、交通建設能夠提升。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳俊宇委員。","接下來請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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我們請部長好 陳部長"},{"start":12.83,"end":36.792,"text":"委員好部長辛苦那個對等關稅前幾天正好卓院長也有到南部去針對我們的產業做談那針對交通的部分事實上也要提醒部長一下就是說整個關稅未來對台灣的影響因為其實川普的關稅其實只是個序幕"},{"start":38.137,"end":54.797,"text":"未來其實最後的目的應該是美國的供應鏈民主國家的供應鏈跟中國的共產國家的供應鏈會分開所以已經會打破以前自由貿易WTO全球化的概念"},{"start":55.822,"end":65.928,"text":"所以這個是一個序幕當然到最後我們要想到最後就中間這個過程可能我們要怎麼應驗比如說我們的大貨車產業我們的那個車體的那個結構那個"},{"start":72.719,"end":100.151,"text":"熱淨鍍芯啦我知道他那個CS就是有一些是整體在中國道路那邊做熱淨鍍芯而有一部分是在台灣他是分不同的部分鍍完再去連接所以像這個部分就是說到底以後如果是以供應鏈的角度來看咦 咱的供應鏈有可能用到他們中工的東西那到底要怎麼去運用"},{"start":101.622,"end":119.764,"text":"像這個東西可能要想很古董的要想很專門的所以就我們的交通事業方面的產業那跟中國供應鏈有關係的可能都一併去做思考這說起來是很多啦但是細節可能要你們交通部去盤點"},{"start":121.125,"end":147.439,"text":"所以希望說交通部我想各部會都會遇到這個問題啦就是說你沒關係公共工程用到所有的機具或者是載具那你就是任何的車產業界都有可能這個供應鏈長期都會受到影響所以這提醒我們各部門就是說可能這個部分要先去預作一下思考不然未來有人回到你再去"},{"start":149.161,"end":150.503,"text":"其實我們一直要求觀光署請署長"},{"start":165.143,"end":181.392,"text":"我想去年觀光署其實有在台北做一個觀光產業數位博覽會那我想這個是一個比較先進的AI技術的融入這個部分其實應該給予觀光署肯定啦我知道不錯的地方先跟你們討論"},{"start":183.173,"end":199.982,"text":"董仁你昨天有答應說6月要到高雄來辦嘛對不對是那不知道現在準備的如何我們也配合仲夏節那麼在柏二會有三天的這種數位的這個策展那跟民眾一起互動"},{"start":200.842,"end":224.721,"text":"那這個部分我們已經整個系統都設計好了那我們會5月23號一起公佈OK 謝謝這個照規劃進行這個我想承諾的東西我要再坎縫一次是不是有答應了有做好這個一定會做謝謝那當然就是說我想再請教一下就是署長這問題今天AI應用到觀光產業那在目前台灣的"},{"start":225.982,"end":246.576,"text":"影響有多大或者是產值有多大因為在應該這麼講AI跟AR的應用其實是在行銷推廣之外還有一個非常重要就是民眾的回饋然後我們要結合大數據的分析跟區塊鏈這樣才能夠精準的掌握市場"},{"start":247.637,"end":273.052,"text":"那麼尤其是在少子化跟高齡化之後我們觀光的產業尤其是旅行業、旅館業、遊樂區業他們也需要有更多的這些我們的數位的這些應用那麼如此的話我們整個觀光的這個旅遊產業才能夠更往前走對 就是上一次我有跟部長跟署長提到就是說到底台灣你來台灣最有吸引力的是什麼"},{"start":274.886,"end":298.438,"text":"那目前來講就是說我們的觀光人數上次也有提到現在是786萬坦白講這個數字我們是相當不滿意啦那我們當時很努力的把觀光局變成觀光署就是希望能夠提高格局那做一個更廣闊的思考"},{"start":299.238,"end":315.568,"text":"所以我們有個概念就是處處都是打卡點 步步都是觀光部那是不是就觀光署在做這個格局的思考的時候我現在覺得你們可能還是被綁在交通部底下的觀光署裡面"},{"start":316.918,"end":338.41,"text":"應該你要跳出來就是說你今天假設是行政院的立場或者是行政院政務委員的立場你來看觀光署應該怎麼發展那該跟各部會跨部會溝通交流的改善的這個該做的要去做要不然你看你的設定的目標去年786萬今年設定的也是"},{"start":339.625,"end":368.908,"text":"一千萬對不對挑戰一千萬對我上次不是有講了你看日本是今年是四千萬二零三年是六千萬那到底我們觀光署交通部在這一部分的長遠的思考有沒有去做改變所以我要要求就是說這個部分希望你們可以改變一下思考就是說不要老是在裡面我再舉個例子那個我曾經到那個"},{"start":370.723,"end":386.912,"text":"去拜訪,就是你去其他各個代表處去拜訪,其實你會發現說,以印尼來講,印尼、印度、法國、加拿大、菲律賓都在這裡辦事處對不對?你過後到底有過後果嗎?"},{"start":391.84,"end":413.122,"text":"那個是遊客中心啦我們是台灣觀光遊客中心最後就是回過頭來看我的786嘛對不對對我們希望雙印的部分能夠設辦事處也就是我們現在目前為止跟外交部怎麼做都是你的戰術策略啦我要看的就是戰略佈局嘛你最後的結果"},{"start":413.923,"end":423.394,"text":"你最後的結果坦白講七八六我今天觀光局變成觀光署照理講是提升一個層次是我的要求應該要提高一個層次"},{"start":425.72,"end":451.655,"text":"是 我們大概是有兩個部分一個是等於是求職的部分 撐職啦對所以我們希望也能夠高端團的部分能夠吸引他們所以我希望說其實然後另外一個部分當然就是我們希望能夠自由行的部分能夠呈現台灣的門號你怎麼去做我都拭目以待但是我要看的就是說你那個格局有沒有提高來是比如說印尼"},{"start":452.835,"end":476.869,"text":"印尼最大的問題其實簽證是個很大的問題是是那你們有沒有想辦法去克服我們一直在跟相關單位在對你懂我意思嗎也就是說我今天要的就是說你今天觀光局變成觀光署我今天786萬是相當的不滿意的那我今天用什麼方式來提高包括我上一次提到的就是你"},{"start":477.529,"end":487.314,"text":"美食小吃啊日本的溫泉啊你要怎麼樣製造特色讓人家想來我覺得你想廣一點想高一點然後要跟各部會怎麼樣去跨部會協調"},{"start":489.057,"end":516.567,"text":"這個部分我是覺得現在你做的當然我是覺得還不錯啦但是就是說總是那個格局看到的是不夠的是不是請署長能夠提高這個格局去做思考希望說部長就是說在跨部會的部分可以給予觀光署協助這樣我們看我就看到他那個做出來的格局決定結局態度決定高度嘛不然你在觀光署裡面交通部的觀光署裡面怕怕不中你做不大步"},{"start":518.047,"end":539.437,"text":"是不是希望說交通部跟公關署這部分可以做不一樣的思考所以下一次我希望看到的就是那個那個目標值啦我希望看到一個更高的戰略目標好不好是 我們持續努力對 那我來下一次再來看那個署長再準備一下好 謝謝謝謝委員好 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有請我們陳部長跟周署長好 陳部長 周署長"},{"start":17.001,"end":38.139,"text":"委員好部長好 署長好我想這陣子全球大家好像在洗喪溫暖以下美國總統川普喊出的關稅四五十趴 幾八趴然後以下給你降到十趴雖然是目前暫緩不過真的也讓全世界很多產業受到很大的驚嚇"},{"start":39.48,"end":49.927,"text":"那我想最近我們行政院我們左院長也帶領我們許多的團隊在各縣市跟我們各行各業的企業界包含我們一些農業的業者在座談"},{"start":50.97,"end":74.015,"text":"那部長我請請教那因為目前行政院提出881的一個支持方案那針對交通部的部分我們這邊有什麼樣一個因應方案嗎報告委員目前他的這個方案裡面主要是農業跟工業為主還有勞工大概分這幾塊那目前對於我們交通部的部分其實大家評估比較有可能受影響的是觀光"},{"start":75.035,"end":96.922,"text":"觀光到現在為止我們看起來的數據是沒有受到影響到現在為止不過對於未來的評估我們正在盤點當中而且我們也有會想一些這個支持業者的方案因為真正如果發生比較負面趨勢的狀況底下比較影響會大的是我們的國內的業者那這個部分的協助的方案我們正在研擬"},{"start":97.979,"end":126.958,"text":"部長我想我們還是要未雨綢繆甚至超前部署那我想我再舉這樣的一個例子過去我們在疫情期間我們交通部針對一個觀光的一個振興一個復甦的方案提出了一個大概將近500億的一個計畫包含一個觀光業跟交通運輸一個紓困還有一個轉型的計畫那我想面對這樣子目前這個國內旅遊市場這個因為受到國外旅遊市場的一個競爭"},{"start":128.139,"end":140.27,"text":"我想針對這樣子過去我們推動的包含國旅券包含那個住宿的補助還有團友的一個獎勵補助甚至景區跟這個環境的一個轉型的一個計畫"},{"start":141.38,"end":169.2,"text":"那部長我們有沒有針對目前這個國內旅遊市場低一米的狀況有沒有再考慮採取這樣的這幾個配套措施報告委員就像我剛剛跟您報告的這次的關稅的這個影響到目前為止看起來數據上影響是不大沒有什麼太大的影響那不過您所提的這幾個振興的方案我們也會研擬在我們秋季或者是冬季的時候因為夏季眼看就到了那目前還評估不太出來因為他那個關稅還有個90天的這個"},{"start":171.041,"end":193.055,"text":"的期間嘛那我們秋季跟冬季的部分我們會先預作準備預擬方案那不過到時候到底景氣的狀況是往下或往上我相信現在沒有任何一個國家評估的出來但是還是要做好準備我們會先預作準備也就是跟委員報告我們秋季跟冬季的部分我們先做計畫把它擬定起來準備來協助振興觀光的部分"},{"start":194.095,"end":213.129,"text":"那所以就是下半年的部分我們就隨時做好因應的政策不過我想目前我們觀光業他們還是擔心這個缺工的問題那當然我們過去我們在2030年的觀光政策白皮書有特別提到我們觀光署要成立一個財團法人的觀光研訓院"},{"start":213.829,"end":239.258,"text":"那我們戰利俊副院長也有特別要求觀光署用一年的時間來成立這樣的一個機構那請教部長跟署長我們目前經過三個月了這個成立的進度為何是 報告委員我們這個觀光研訓院的部分我們會預計在年底之前會可以完成那這些我們部裡面也都開過會我也跟周署長開過會那我們部裡面相關單位包含財主單位大家有開過會針對未來的這個設置的計畫"},{"start":242.899,"end":267.795,"text":"跟未來的這個基金的這個來源就是資金的來源的部分我們也都有一定的方案那目前正在寫計畫當中我們大概這個月的月底大概就會有一個比較具體的方案會報過來我知道部長跟署長大概這幾年大概為了這個國內外觀光大概有很多的想法跟對策不過我覺得這個我們還是要與時俱進我覺得我們古年生活今年就不一定好用"},{"start":269.336,"end":281.385,"text":"尤其我覺得整個觀光環境的這個變遷也非常非常大那我們的這個遊客也好甚至我們鄉親他的對於旅遊的想法也隨時都在改變所以這個真的是要隨時有滾動檢討的必要性"},{"start":286.249,"end":307.587,"text":"那回過頭來我還是要提到屏東觀光那部長我想您自己本身也很常下去這個恆春啊是你覺得恆春這個屏東公路目前我們大概就走屏東公路吧因為過去我們這個也有相關的機構委託公關公司提到屏東觀光的一個問題那其中被最大的一個詬病的其中一個要點就是"},{"start":309.288,"end":335.597,"text":"關於這個交通的問題尤其我們現在目前當然我們現在目前針對高鐵也好捷運也好平台快速到達這幾條路的那個進度讓它加快進行但是這個交通擁捨跟測出照相機過多發達很多這本事件很難聽部長這部分有沒有辦法跟內政部跟相關的單位來做研究看怎麼樣因為總是設置了一個時間之後是不是應該要做調整"},{"start":336.428,"end":338.589,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所說的塞車的問題其實您也關心過很多次"},{"start":366.988,"end":382.817,"text":"會設置一些測速照相就是因為有出過一些車禍所以才會設置代表當時的車速或許是過快才會有測速照相那測速照相之後也確實有一些成效啦坦白講就是車禍的狀況變少了那現在會不會太多以我自己"},{"start":383.577,"end":410.789,"text":"開車因為我時常開車去墾丁再加人過去我是沒有被拍照的經驗但是有一些人確實是覺得這個取締有點太多那這個部分我們跟警政單位大家來溝通一下有沒有可能讓大家又安全然後又守法不過不要時常有罰單的這個狀況我們來溝通看看我們支持這個危險路口一定要來做加強這個取締但是有些路段真的確實可以檢討把它放寬不然這個有時候路上或許"},{"start":411.129,"end":415.679,"text":"或許是針對車速的部分大家可以來做討論確定車速是一個很大的問題"},{"start":417.914,"end":433.742,"text":"那另外我想我們屏東有茂館處茂林國家公園風景區管理處跟大鵬灣風景區管理處那過去其實我們在這個好幾個鄉鎮長都有跟我反映有沒有可能我們這兩個風景處的那個範圍裡面把周邊的鄉鎮把它納編進來他們很要讓你們服務"},{"start":443.29,"end":461.499,"text":"擴大的議題其實很多縣市也都有這樣的期望那我們之前台中的霧峰區也加入了33管理處那委員也關心很多次那我們也會來討論這個議題就是說其他的地方有沒有可能加入不過有一些是特定區的問題我們來想辦法解套"},{"start":464.68,"end":492.759,"text":"部長我想就是排除特殯區之外那其他有意願的部分能不能一起來納入合作最起碼這個我們相關整個不管是這個旅遊資源也好農特產品甚至你們最拿手的觀光推廣部分整個中央跟地方一起來合作我們也可以用另外一個方式就是用觀光圈的方式我們設定觀光圈然後把它納進來是觀光圈裡面也是可以協助的到這部分我到時候我會再邀縣政府跟相關的單位再跟你們一起來討論"},{"start":493.86,"end":508.935,"text":"那最後就是我想那個這個票價的問題那台鐵一調了之後台北到屏東的票價破千了那未來這樣子是不是會影響到我們鄉親的權益甚至很多這個旅遊的一個鐵道米這個旅遊的一個"},{"start":512.238,"end":528.955,"text":"衝擊那甚至我們這個高鐵我知道我們有做一些的旅遊套餐的一個配套措施但是因為我們很多的優質的一些飯店跟民宿的業者一直往往都得不到我們高鐵關愛的眼神沒得變合作對象有點可惜啦那這部分是不是可以來做事實的一個檢討調整"},{"start":530.976,"end":559.856,"text":"其實台鐵這是票價的調漲他遞遠是遞減所以如果你說台北到潮州或者台北到屏東這個非常遠的距離他反而那個票價的漲幅是低的那不過委員一直在關心針對這個觀光的影響那我們也會請台鐵公司如果可以的話我們也跟地方的一些觀光業者大家有一個套票或者有什麼樣的合作方案讓未來住飯店也便宜然後交通費用也便宜大家比較願意往南"},{"start":560.837,"end":567.513,"text":"我覺得就是我們擇優然後來共存共榮把這個餅做大嘛這部分大家一起來努力啦好好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1157,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時25分）謝謝主席。有請陳部長跟周署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好、署長好。這陣子全球好像在洗三溫暖，一下美國總統川普喊出關稅4、50%、幾百%，然後一下子降到10%，雖然目前暫緩，不過真的也讓全世界很多產業受到很大的驚嚇。最近我們的行政院卓院長也帶領我們許多的團隊，在各縣市跟各行各業的企業界，包含農漁業的業者在座談。我想請教部長，目前行政院提出880億的支持方案，針對交通部的部分，有什麼樣的因應方案嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前支持方案裡面，主要是以農業、工業，還有勞工為主，大概分這幾塊。目前對於交通部的部分，其實大家評估比較有可能受影響的是觀光，但觀光到現在為止，我們看起來的數據是沒有受到影響。不過對於未來的評估，我們正在盤點當中，而且我們也有想一些支持業者的方案，因為如果真正發生比較負面趨勢的狀況，影響比較大的是國內的業者，我們正在研擬這個部分的協助方案。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想我們還是要未雨綢繆，甚至超前部署。我再舉一個例子，過去我們在疫情期間，交通部針對觀光的振興及復甦方案，提出一個大概將近500億的計畫，包含觀光業跟交通運輸的紓困，還有一個轉型的計畫。面對目前國內旅遊市場受到國外旅遊市場的競爭，過去我們推動的包含國旅券、住宿的補助，還有團遊的獎勵補助，甚至景區跟環境的轉型計畫。部長，針對目前國內旅遊市場低迷的狀況，我們有沒有考慮再採取這幾個配套措施？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就像我剛剛跟您報告的，這次關稅的影響，到目前為止看起來數據上影響是不大，沒有什麼太大的影響。不過您所提的這幾個振興方案，我們也會研擬在秋季或冬季的時候，因為夏季眼看就到了，目前還評估不太出來，因為關稅還有個90天的期間。我們秋季跟冬季的部分會先預做準備、預擬方案。不過到時候到底景氣的狀況是往下或往上，我相信現在沒有任何一個國家評估的出來。"],["徐委員富癸：但是還是要做好準備。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們會預做準備，也就是秋季跟冬季的部分，我們先做計畫擬定出來，準備來協助振興觀光的部分。"],["徐委員富癸：所以就是下半年的部分，我們隨時做好因應。"],["陳部長世凱：是，隨時做好因應。"],["徐委員富癸：不過目前我們的觀光業還是擔心缺工的問題，當然我們過去在2030的觀光政策白皮書中，有特別提到觀光署要成立一個財團法人觀光研訓院，鄭麗君副院長也有特別要求觀光署，用一年的時間來成立這樣的一個機構。請教部長跟署長，目前經過3個月了，我們成立的進度為何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，觀光研訓院的部分，我們預計在年底之前可以完成。之前我們部裡面也開過會，我也跟周署長開過會，我們部裡面的相關單位，包含財主單位大家有開過會，針對未來的設置計畫跟資金的來源，我們也都有一定的方案。目前正在寫計畫當中，我們大概在這個月的月底，就會提報一個比較具體的方案。"],["徐委員富癸：我知道部長跟署長這幾年為了國內外觀光，大概有很多的想法跟對策，不過我們還是要與時俱進，有時我們去年想的，今年不一定能用。尤其整個觀光環境的變遷也非常大，我們的遊客也好，甚至我們的鄉親對於旅遊的想法也隨時在改變，他們看到哪裡比較便宜就往那裏跑，所以真的是隨時要有滾動檢討的必要性。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：回過頭來，我還是要提到屏東觀光，我想部長也很常去恆春，目前我們大概是走屏鵝公路，因為過去我們也有相關的機構委託觀光公司，提到屏東觀光的一個問題，其中最大詬病的一個要點就是交通問題。當然目前針對高鐵、捷運也好，以及屏南快速道路，這幾條路的進度我們要加快進行。但是交通壅塞跟測速照相機過多，累積了很多罰單的部分實在令人頭痛。部長，這部分有沒有辦法跟內政部及相關的單位來做研究？因為設置測速照相一段時間之後，是不是應該要做調整？否則設置之後罰單開了，結果好像也沒有解決應該解決的問題，反而造成民怨、造成大家不敢往墾丁跑，部長，怎麼看待這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛才所說的塞車問題，其實您也關心過很多次，包含未來有可能的觀光鐵道是個方案，還有屏南快的部分也是一個方案，交通的部分我們一步一步來解決。另外，您所提到警察取締或測速照相太多的部分，過去會設置一些測速照相，就是因為有出過一些車禍才會設置，代表當時的車速或許是過快，才會被測速照相。在設置測速照相之後也確實有一些成效，坦白講就是車禍的狀況變少了。至於現在會不會太多？以我自己開車為例，因為我時常開車載家人去墾丁，我是沒有被拍照的經驗，但是有一些人確實覺得取締有點太多，這個部分我們跟警政單位溝通有沒有可能讓大家又安全又守法，且不要時常有罰單的狀況，我們來溝通看看。"],["徐委員富癸：我們支持危險路口一定要做加強取締，但是有些路段確實可以檢討把它放寬，否則有時路上……"],["陳部長世凱：或許是針對車速的部分大家可以來討論，我們也會跟地方政府討論。"],["徐委員富癸：車速是一個很大的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我們屏東有茂管處（茂林國家風景區管理處）跟大鵬灣國家風景區管理處，過去有好幾個鄉鎮長跟我反映，有沒有可能這兩個風景處的範圍，把周邊鄉鎮也納編進來？他們很愛讓你們服務，有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：擴大的議題，其實很多縣市也都有這樣的期望，之前臺中霧峰區也加入參山管理處，委員也關心很多次，我們會來討論這個議題，就是其他的地方有沒有可能加入，不過有一些是特定區的問題，我們來想辦法解套。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想就是排除特定區之外，其他有意願的部分能不能一起納入合作？不管是旅遊資源、農特產品也好，甚至你們最拿手的觀光推廣部分，整個中央跟地方一起來合作。"],["陳部長世凱：我們也可以用另外一個方式，就是設置觀光圈的方式，把其他地方納進來觀光圈裡面，也是可以協助得到。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分我到時候會邀縣政府跟相關單位，再跟你們一起來討論。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：最後就是票價的問題，臺鐵一調漲之後，臺北到屏東的票價破千了，未來這樣子是不是會影響到我們鄉親的權益，甚至造成很多鐵道迷的旅遊衝擊。還有高鐵的部分，我知道我們有做一些旅遊套餐的配套措施，但是因為很多優質的飯店跟民宿業者，一直都得不到高鐵關愛的眼神，沒辦法變成合作對象有點可惜，這部分是不是可以做適時的檢討調整？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實臺鐵這次票價的調漲是遞遠遞減，所以如果是臺北到潮州或臺北到屏東，這個非常遠的距離，反而票價的漲幅是低的。不過委員一直在關心對觀光的影響，我們也會請臺鐵公司，如果可以的話也跟地方的觀光業者，大家有一個套票或什麼樣的合作方案，讓未來住飯店也便宜、交通費用也便宜，大家比較願意往南去觀光。"],["徐委員富癸：就是我們擇優，然後來共存共榮，把這個餅做大，這部分大家一起來努力，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","接下來請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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調查還有財政部也會去做調查那調查結果會事實上會在我們的關稅稅率審議小組裡面去做討論然後才認定以後來給予相關的課徵反請銷稅好 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請農業部的官員"},{"start":148.031,"end":165.546,"text":"我們擔心關於境外茶混沖的問題當然農業部已經在1、2年有實施國產茶的強制溯源的狀況但是還是有偽冒產地的問題還有很嚴重的去侵害到我們農民的利益還有我們台灣農業的生育"},{"start":167.427,"end":181.131,"text":"目前鑑定的科學技術應用於市售通路市售通路的產地抽驗這樣子的頻率或者是說範圍有沒有產生足夠的嚇阻效果"},{"start":182.895,"end":201.508,"text":"就那個檢驗的方法公告之後其實不只是在比賽茶各通路還有就是只要標示是台灣茶就一定要是台灣茶那如果其他有拼配或是有其他那就不能用那現在的方法在不管是在市售通路賣場或是在比賽的狀況其實都已經有大幅改善"},{"start":202.503,"end":227.428,"text":"那我們現在還有聽到說有DNA的這個檢驗技術它已經慢慢的普及了現在有這個趨勢嗎目前我們茶葉檢定方法還是以這個同位數微量同位數的方式因為它相對敏感跟整個資料庫是完整的那哪一個就是你剛剛提到的跟我們現在講的這樣子哪一個的檢驗成本會比較低廉或者是考量性價比的話是"},{"start":228.869,"end":253.212,"text":"應該這樣說啦其實對我們來講讓能夠掛上台灣茶國產茶的這個品牌其實是必要的所以我們其實當初在開發方式是以他的準確跟可行可行可推廣使用的方式來做目前用起來其實是都還算是在普及率或是在他的特異性敏感性正確性其實都有蠻好的結果"},{"start":253.712,"end":279.913,"text":"那對於防範那些偽餐的或是冒用的其實也有很好的成果那現在我們主要的這個境外茶來去混應該是說中國現在根據你們的報告已經我們禁止中國茶葉的進口中國茶葉不能進來那現在主要是來自第三地的進口茶葉來去混應該是哪一個國家為主東南亞是越南有一些還是越南為主對但是他就要標示他的原產地OK"},{"start":280.413,"end":296.605,"text":"還是希望說我們剛剛講那麼多不管是在這個檢測或者是說在它的範圍等等如果有能夠可以把它的這個能源資源更放下去那確保說我們這些重點的茶葉能夠被守護住就是我們這樣重視的好 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有請我們財政部莊部長經濟部姜政次還有國貿署副署長是國貿署副署長"},{"start":27.646,"end":45.852,"text":"部長好 三位好我想今天主要是針對中國大陸產品低價傾銷還有透過臺灣稀產地一個問題我想本席也要提出最近我們一直在追的一個案子就是有關於中國啤酒大量傾銷來臺灣的一個疑慮"},{"start":48.433,"end":56.702,"text":"那我想部長可以從這個圖示上的一個資料我們這個國產啤酒的市占率從2017年的65%降到2024年只有剩下47.8%反觀中國大陸的啤酒在台灣的進口從這個2015年的20"},{"start":69.936,"end":93.804,"text":"6%到目前為止足足成長了5倍到已經變成32%那我想這樣子的一個進口出口的一個狀況可以顯示這個中共這邊他們用國家的一個力量大量支持他們的啤酒的一個產業然後用大量傾銷的方式到台灣來那尤其我們自己在鄉下發現很多的這個雜貨店還有檳榔攤"},{"start":96.365,"end":117.32,"text":"都是佈滿他們的廣告他們的廣告不會寫說是大陸啤酒他們用百威 用Kirimba 用雪山這些名稱好像看起來是外國啤酒事實上全部都是產自於中國大陸這非常非常的危險而且他們每一瓶的單價都比我們國產啤酒還便宜那依我們調出來的資料我們2024年中國啤酒"},{"start":121.282,"end":149.819,"text":"內銷的單價是台幣23.94元當然國產啤酒這個單價我們總是高達43.93元銷價的幅度高達45%所以我想一個價差的落差會造成我們很多的鄉親這個當然是選擇便宜的啤酒來飲用但是這個就造成我們一個台灣一個很嚴重的一個國安危機那部長我想這個案子相關的業者他們也提出一個反傾銷的一個案子"},{"start":150.259,"end":179.649,"text":"那財政部這個目前的處理進度請部長說明一下謝謝委員對於中國大陸產製的進口啤酒已經由我們台灣的釀酒商協會提出申請然後申請反傾銷的調查目前已經是由經濟部和財政部一起在調查當中那調查結果以後只要有傾銷的事實而且影響到國內的產業的話那麼就我們會提送到我們的關稅稅率審議小組來做審議那如果有這樣的一個情況就可以"},{"start":180.309,"end":195.125,"text":"核克初步的臨時課徵反請銷稅就可以做這個部長你們有沒有其他的外在壓力沒有啊沒有啦該怎麼做就怎麼做啊我們就是公平來調查嘛當然要進行相關的調查是"},{"start":195.697,"end":225.28,"text":"那我想除了我們這個展開一個反傾銷的一個調查之外那我想本席這邊也期望我們當然還是要增加我們國內產業的一個競爭力那所以本席有針對因為過去我們這個主要我們台灣針對這個麥芽也好啤酒花也好栽種的面積有限那所以我想我們很多都仰賴進口但是這個總是有一個關稅的一個壓力那本席也提出了一個啤酒花關稅調降到齡的一個案子"},{"start":225.74,"end":253.175,"text":"那部長財政部這邊是不是會來支持這樣的一個增加國內產業競爭力的提案對於有關啤酒的產業裡面主要的一個原料是啤酒花跟麥芽那這部分那是不是要進口調降關稅的部分目前我們也還在研議當中是也要了解它實際上會不會有什麼樣的影響部長那這個大概多久時間可以給本席一個報告"},{"start":254.995,"end":272.714,"text":"這個部分我們是不是可以再那這樣的話我們是不是再兩個月給委員一個報告好那就兩個月好謝謝委員謝謝那另外我想我剛剛特別提到這個中國的啤酒他們藉著這個Kirimba還有雪山還有"},{"start":273.955,"end":301.275,"text":"這個甚至是不一樣的進口品牌來這個進口那官網又特別打出了一個台灣原創的一個品牌實在是匪夷所思那更遺憾的是台北市政府在調查的時候竟然還包庇這個竟然查不出一個具體的一個成果讓我們非常遺憾那部長我想你在我們這個圖示上面從九類標示的管理辦法第13條上面的第一款就有特別提到"},{"start":301.755,"end":328.365,"text":"所謂一個地理標示他就是必須要足以證明該來源是該商品的原產地而且應該也符合各該地區的一個國家的一個規定那我想寫得那麼清楚那部長站在主管機關我們可以放任地方政府這樣混淆一個產品的販售嗎不可以剛剛其實委員講的像剛剛幾款那個啤酒他不就是把那個外面譬如說"},{"start":336.511,"end":349.622,"text":"這個部分造成消費者的混淆所以這個部分依照管理辦法我們財政部的國庫署已經發解釋函令地方政府要確實好好的查而且不能有混淆的情況什麼時候調查的報告會拿到"},{"start":353.078,"end":376.939,"text":"這個我們解釋函令已經發下去了,是不是署長可以說明一下是,跟委員報告,剛剛我們部長講的一些那種足以讓消費者混淆誤以為原產地不是在台灣的這樣的一個誤認的事實的話我們這個解釋令,也就是說不管是酒的那個包裝或者是廣告都不能有這樣的情形,那這個解釋令已經發了"},{"start":378.894,"end":384.061,"text":"但是我們執行面有問題啊那這個部分的話地方政府他們會依據我們的解釋令去落實執行"},{"start":392.557,"end":416.163,"text":"我希望還是財政部要再緊追啦這個部份要緊追而且也要求地方政府要有相關的進度基查的進度要回報回來好是好那最後一個我想針對農產品息產力的部分還是要請我們相關單位做好準備尤其這個我們現在關稅的競爭之後很多我們的農業產品很可能變成這個中國的一個息產力的一個"},{"start":417.443,"end":429.055,"text":"出考的一個很重要的一個要件那所以這部分我們過去的一個裁罰基準是不是應該要做提升甚至做有效的管制我想這個請相關單位再做好研議謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1149,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時54分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長、經濟部江政次，還有國貿署副署長。"],["主席：請莊部長、江政次、副署長。"],["徐委員富癸：三位好、部長好。今天主要是針對中國大陸產品低價傾銷以及透過台灣洗產地的問題，本席要提出最近我們一直在追的一個案子，即有關中國啤酒大量傾銷來台灣的疑慮，部長可以看到圖示的資料，我們的國產啤酒市占率從2017年的65%，降到2024年只剩下47.8%，反觀中國大陸的啤酒進口台灣，從2015年的26%，到目前為止足足成長了5倍，到已經變成32%。這樣的出口狀況，可以顯示中共用國家的力量，大量支持他們的啤酒產業，然後用大量傾銷的方式到台灣來，尤其我們在鄉下發現很多的雜貨店還有檳榔攤都是布滿他們的廣告，他們的廣告不會寫是大陸啤酒，他們用百威、Kirin 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Bar、雪山，甚至是不一樣的進口品牌來進口，官網又特別打出了台灣原創的品牌，實在是匪夷所思，更遺憾的是台北市政府在調查的時候竟然還包庇，竟然查不出具體的成果，讓我們非常遺憾。請教部長，在本席的這個圖示上面，酒類標示管理辦法第十三條第一款就特別提到，所謂的地理標示就是必須要足以證明該來源是該商品的原產地，而且應該也符合各該地區、國家的規定。這已經寫得那麼清楚，部長，站在主管機關的立場，可以放任地方政府做這樣混淆產品的販售嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然不可以，像委員剛才所講那幾款啤酒，就像在外包裝標上比如宜蘭蔥油餅、黑鮪魚什麼等等的，造成消費者的混淆，所以這個部分依照管理辦法，財政部國庫署已經發解釋函令，要求地方政府要確實好好的查，而且不能有混淆的情況。"],["徐委員富癸：什麼時候可以拿到這個調查報告？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們解釋函令已經發下去了，是不是請署長說明一下？"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，剛剛我們部長講的一些足以讓消費者混淆，誤以為原產地是在台灣，對於會產生這樣誤認的事實，我們發布這一個解釋令，也就是不管是酒的包裝或是廣告都不能有這樣的情形，這個解釋令已經發了。"],["徐委員富癸：但是我們執行面有問題啊，現在檳榔攤、雜貨店到處都有啊！"],["陳署長柏誠：這個部分地方政府會依據我們的解釋令去落實執行。"],["徐委員富癸：我希望財政部要再緊追，這個部分要緊追，而且也要求地方政府要有相關的進度，稽查的進度要回報。"],["陳署長柏誠：是。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，針對農產品洗產地的部分，還是要請相關單位做好準備，尤其處於目前的關稅競爭之際，我們很多的農漁產品很可能變成中國洗產地出口的一個重要的要件，所以我們過去對這部分的裁罰基準是不是應該要做提升，甚至做有效的管制，請相關單位再做好研議。謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝富癸委員。","接著請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160268","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dff5da019bc6682d54b2710058b23c04f82021fb25ab74fd83de89be31bb10dba25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:52:17 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謝謝主席 主席我們請經濟部郭部長郭部長"},{"start":23.611,"end":45.63,"text":"部長好 部長辛苦了部長 今天的報告裡面你們也提到說針對貿易政策 關稅政策台灣的機械 工具機 手工具這些產業的成本增加影響獲利所以對這些產業的衝擊會比較明顯我想以台中為例台中今天市長也特別講說台中一些傳統產業是重災區希望政府能特別多幫忙"},{"start":46.391,"end":70.901,"text":"那台中也盤點了幾項六大產業包含說手工具、工具機、自行車光電面板、新屬製品和航太那這些就業人口就業的這個狀況我想可以看到數據上來講的話確實在這六大產業裡面中部或台中整個中部地區來講它的影響面它的占比是非常非常高的而它的就業人口也高達這個24萬左右24萬多左右這個數據我想是各單位統一出來的數據那對這樣的衝擊我不知道經濟部會員"},{"start":74.923,"end":76.044,"text":"我們到台中都不止一次啦"},{"start":105.219,"end":128.861,"text":"我陪總統就去一次上週五去一次吧總統去一次在總統之前我們這個產業發展署中小企業署都跟業者多方面的去談過這個談完了以後我們當然在這個有一些措施推出來但是看起來我們之前推的"},{"start":129.738,"end":153.988,"text":"本來要公告的因為跟這個座談以後發現有一些微調的不一樣所以我們一直在修正像這個工具區、手工區這一些廠商來講他們現在這個並不是說缺單或者是缺工並不是這樣但是反而是大家急著要把他的這個單子提高嘛"},{"start":155.308,"end":175.666,"text":"接下來找的是說船旗可能找不到船要我們政府協助他安排這個船旗可以快速的讓他送到美國去我想這些等等因為這個需求有做很大的改變但是對經濟部來講服務廠商這個就是唯一的任務所以我們會動態的調整我們的工作來 部長"},{"start":181.041,"end":192.526,"text":"其實座談的過程我不確定這個消息有沒有正確傳達就是說這一次當然經濟部也好或行政也好整體的這個方案很多是在拯救或是補助"},{"start":194.299,"end":214.608,"text":"對美直接有對美關係的貿易額的這些廠商但是其實包含說這兩天我想這個報紙中央社有一個報導是指這個像我們在法國在歐洲的這個世界台商總會長蔡國泰他也提到其實像台中很多這些機械產業它的主要出口國確實不是美國但它很多出口"},{"start":215.248,"end":238.297,"text":"到歐洲去或到其他國家去它的終端消費市場它依舊是在美國所以這些終端消費市場在美國的國家它的確不是直接出口到美國去的它的占比沒那麼高沒錯但它最後的送到國外去組裝然後再賣美國的這批廠商其實也受到影響那我要問的是說這批廠商有沒有在你們的這個清單裡面還是這個東西沒有在目前的這個盤點裡面"},{"start":239.628,"end":260.545,"text":"如果說他需要申請補助我們基本上是從寬從減從速啦所以過去的一些條款譬如說他有衰退啊跡象我們才給補助事實上這次都沒有都拿掉把這些這個條件我們都是寬裕的來認定那中小微的企業如果他是企業比較小"},{"start":261.286,"end":281.264,"text":"那麼如果有一些資料佐證他確實有從事這個出口的這個工作或者是說他上他交給的那個客戶本身就是蘇美的這些廠商的話那在這方面我們都認定是可以所以最終只要能夠提出最終消費市場他是在美國的話他會在這一波的那個他就拿那個訂單出來看我們就可以知道"},{"start":281.564,"end":291.38,"text":"另外部長還有一個問題就是說因為現在是我們現在談的都是台灣跟美國之間的關係那問題是說像我剛剛提到以歐洲為例他們跟中國大陸之間並沒有這種目前並沒有產生這種關稅之戰"},{"start":294.417,"end":319.96,"text":"那很大一些廠商擔心什麼就是我們的產品現在像歐洲是沒問題的但是如果在這段期間如果假設歐洲跟中國之間中國把這個所謂的不能銷美國的產品他不去賣美國他反而賣去歐洲做傾銷的話對於台廠也會產生衝擊這部分的話我們今天不知道怎麼面對這個事情我們當然有把這個考慮進去啦這個外溢效用那當然一樣廠商面對的問題我們就幫他解決"},{"start":321.261,"end":330.349,"text":"他如果是我們一樣就是幫他先紓困有必要的紓困第二個就是在短期裡面我們幫他找新的訂單"},{"start":331.667,"end":351.099,"text":"我們幫他找新訂單所以他們在外面的展覽啊或者是我們找國外的廠商國外的buyer來台灣買東西我剛才在那個報告上面也有講所以我們是盡量來這個協助讓他們取得新的訂單部長很高興你提到這個協助找訂單啊但我要先確認一個事情就是說"},{"start":352.401,"end":367.578,"text":"幫台灣這些廠商往海外找訂單或拓展、拓銷等等這部分是鼓勵用貸款的方式還是到時候政府會有一個專案來補助這些廠商他們出國去歐洲以後去其他第三世界的國家也好其他消費市場去做相關的這個推廣還是說"},{"start":368.739,"end":397.246,"text":"是由貸款的方式來處理這個部分因為在過去第一波你們公布的方案裡面似乎是用貸款的方式但是我現在問的是說經過這個一兩個週討論之後補助方案或是說鼓勵這些廠商出國的方案還是用貸款的方式呢還是政府會有一個專案讓大家找到對的市場我們過去是用補助的方案嘛那很多的廠商認為說補助金額太少嘛對所以我們現在大概會改變這樣的一個方式啦就是說我們打台灣一個品牌"},{"start":398.146,"end":408.205,"text":"那聯合出展台灣一個品牌那這樣子可以增加它的效果第二個廠商也不需要花那麼高的成本"},{"start":409.233,"end":428.802,"text":"那我們政府會完全來支持來協助他們到國外出戰好謝謝最後一個問題這個時間到了最後一個問題之前提到這個中小微企業你們的貸款利率是2.22那我不知道2.22其實應該很多民眾很多廠商在座談裡面也有點反應了2.22其實就是正常啦"},{"start":429.585,"end":447.794,"text":"這沒有感受到政府的誠意跟幫助啊如果真的是遇到困難的廠商你們的利率2.22%還是這個數字嗎還是有機會要往下降因為這個我們有利息補貼啦我們有利息補貼2.22%嗎還是2.2%嗎我們舉例子新青安當初這個新青安是1.6% 1.8%我們買房就便宜報告委員我們貸款在250萬以內補貼1.5%大概為期六個月"},{"start":454.465,"end":469.698,"text":"再加上是多少如果這樣算的話他們廠商的貸款利率大概可以降到多少2.2減1.5啊好所以就是0.7啦是不是這樣子六個月內是那六個月之後呢還是要看到時候經濟狀況來決定再看看狀況好謝謝部長來謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1085,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時52分）好，謝謝主席。主席，我們請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，辛苦了。部長，今天的報告裡面，你們也提到，針對關稅政策，臺灣的機械、工具機、手工具等產業的成本增加，影響獲利，所以對這些產業的衝擊會比較明顯。我想，以臺中為例，今天臺中市長也特別講說，臺中有一些傳統產業是重災區，希望經濟部能夠特別多幫忙。臺中盤點了六大產業，包含手工具、工具機、自行車、光電面板、金屬製品、航太工業，從就業人口數據上來看的話，確實在這六大產業裡面，在整個中部地區來講，在影響面，它的占比是非常非常高的，相關就業人口也高達24萬左右，這是各單位統計出來的數據，對於這樣的衝擊，經濟部這個禮拜一也有來臺中跟產業界進行座談，那我不知道部長你聽完產業界的反映之後目前的對策是如何？我先不管談判結果怎麼樣，我們針對這段時間，因為還在談判過程，有90天的緩衝期，至少在這段時間裡面，對於內需或對於我們內部怎麼去穩定這些產業，我想問一下經濟部談完之後有什麼樣的想法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們到臺中不只一次，我陪總統就去了一次。"],["黃委員健豪：上週五去一次。"],["郭部長智輝：跟總統去一次。在跟總統去之前，我們的產業發展署、中小企業署都跟業者多方面地去談過了，談完了以後，我們當然有一些措施推出來，但是看起來，我們之前推的，本來要公告的，因為座談以後發現有一些微調的不一樣，所以我們一直在修正。像工具機、手工具這些廠商，他們現在的問題並不是缺單或缺工，並不是這樣子，反而是大家急著要把他們的船期單子提高，像現在可能找不到船，要我們政府協助他們安排船期，讓他們可以快速地把貨送到美國去。因為需求有很大的改變，但是對經濟部來講，服務廠商就是唯一的任務，所以我們會動態地調整我們的工作。"],["黃委員健豪：好。部長，其實在過程中我不確定這個消息能不能正確傳達，就是說，這一次經濟部也好，行政院也好，整體的方案，很多是在拯救或補助直接有對美關係的貿易額的這些廠商，但是這兩天中央社有一則報導，在歐洲的世界臺商總會長蔡國泰也提到，其實臺中很多機械產業的主要出口確實不是美國，但有很多是出口到歐洲去，到其他國家去，終端消費市場依舊是在美國，所以這些終端消費市場在美國的部分，的確不是直接出口到美國去的，占比沒有那麼高，但是最後會送到國外去組裝，然後再賣美國，這一批廠商其實也受到影響，那我要問的就是，這批廠商有沒有在你們的清單裡面？還是這個東西沒有在目前你們的盤點裡面？"],["郭部長智輝：如果他們需要申請補助，我們基本上是從寬、從簡、從速，過去的一些條款規定，譬如說這個產業有衰退的跡象，我們才給予補助，事實上，這次都沒有、都拿掉，對這些條件，我們都是寬裕地來認定。那中小微企業，如果是企業比較小，那麼如果有一些資料佐證他們確實有從事出口的工作或者是說他們交付的客戶本身就是輸美的廠商的話，那在這方面我們都認定是可以的。"],["黃委員健豪：所以只要他們能夠提出最終消費市場是在美國的話，可以在這一波……"],["郭部長智輝：要拿那個訂單出來看，我們就可以知道。"],["黃委員健豪：好。另外，部長，還有一個問題就是說，因為我們現在談的都是臺灣跟美國之間的關係，問題是說，像我剛剛提到的，以歐洲為例，他們跟中國大陸之間目前並沒有產生這種關稅之戰，很多廠商很擔心，我們的產品現在銷往歐洲是沒問題的，但是如果在這段期間，歐洲跟中國之間，中國把不能銷美國的產品不去賣美國，反而賣去歐洲傾銷的話，對於臺廠也會產生衝擊，這部分的話，我們經濟部要怎麼面對這個事情？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有把這個考慮進去，這個是外溢效用，當然一樣，廠商面對的問題，我們就幫他們解決，我們一樣，第一個，就是做有必要的紓困。第二個，就是在短期裡面，我們幫他們找新的訂單，所以他們在外面的展覽，或者是我們找國外的廠商、國外的buyer來臺灣買東西，我剛才在報告上面也有講，我們是儘量來協助，讓他們取得新的訂單。"],["黃委員健豪：很高興你提到尋找訂單，但是我要先確定一個事情，就是說，當臺灣這些廠商往海外找訂單或拓展、拓銷等等，這部分是鼓勵用貸款的方式還是到時候政府會有個專案，來補助這些廠商他們出國去歐洲或其他第三世界國家、其他消費市場，去做相關的推廣還是說是由貸款的方式來處理？因為在過去第一波你們公布的方案裡面，似乎是用貸款的方式，但是我現在問的是，經過這一、兩週的討論之後，是用補助方案、還是用鼓勵這些廠商出國的方案、還是用貸款的方式、還是政府會有個專案，讓大家找到對的市場出口去？"],["郭部長智輝：我們過去是用補助的方案，很多廠商認為補助金額太少，所以我們現在大概會改變這樣的一個方式，就是說，我們打臺灣一個品牌，聯合出展，這樣子可以增加它的效果。第二個，廠商也不需要花那麼高的成本，那我們政府會完全來支持，來協助他們到國外出展。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。","最後一個問題，之前提到中小微企業，你們的貸款利率是2.22%，應該有很多廠商和民眾在座談裡跟你反映，2.22%這個利率其實就是正常的利率，他們沒有感受到政府的誠意跟幫助，如果真的是遇到困難的廠商，你們的利率還是2.22%這個數字嗎？還是有機會再往下降？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有利息補貼。"],["黃委員健豪：是2.22%嗎？還是2.22%嗎？我們舉個例子，新青安貸款當初的利率是1.6%、1.8%，比買房都便宜。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們貸款250萬以內補貼1.5%，為期6個月。"],["黃委員健豪：那這樣是多少？如果這樣算的話，他們廠商的貸款利率大概可以降到多少？"],["郭部長智輝：2.22%減1.5%。"],["黃委員健豪：好，所以就是0.7%，是不是這樣子？6個月內。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員健豪：那6個月之後呢？還是要看到時候的經濟狀況來決定？"],["郭部長智輝：再看看嘛──再看看狀況。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請顏寬恒委員做詢答。顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","現在請何欣純委員做詢答。何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","現在請麥玉珍委員做詢答。麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","現在請羅明才委員做詢答。羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","現在請林楚茵委員做詢答。林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答。蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請徐欣瑩委員做詢答。徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請馬文君委員做詢答。馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","現在請翁曉玲委員做詢答。翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員不在。","現在請葉元之委員做詢答。葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員陳超明、翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄、刊登公報。","書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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辛苦了 要撐到中午我有請莊部長以及我們經濟部的姜政次對 姜政次好 我們的莊部長跟姜次長部長 我想詢問的部分因為其實前面蠻多委員都已經詢問過那麼我就針對我現在想要理解的 來 下一張"},{"start":36.307,"end":52.479,"text":"我想其實防堵紅色供應鏈現在全世界都在清查自己在對美的貿易跟出口的部分那麼本席特別跟我們的關務署有提到那就是我們知道美國現在公佈的包括他們原本的這個現在雖然是暫緩"},{"start":54.74,"end":83.411,"text":"實施90天但是幾個國家在對等關稅的稅率當中像這個從50%到41%都有那麼台灣是32%那麼許多的國家像越南啦緬甸啦這些新南向的國家包括泰國的37%孟加拉的37%等等其實這個對台灣的影響就是過去我們當然也知道我們為了去紅供應鏈我們會有新南向的政策"},{"start":83.931,"end":89.918,"text":"那麼在這個部分呢根據本集現在所了解是台灣對美的副出口值從2016到2024那麼這8年來其實成長了153%過去大家都在問的就是說除了"},{"start":99.028,"end":123.622,"text":"我們直接對美的出口之外這種所謂的對美的副出口值在增加多年來8年就有153的時候到底是哪些物品又或者是說財政部或者跟經濟部之間有沒有一個詳細的數字因為過去我所關心的當然是我們直接對美的出口包括前幾名的有一些AI的"},{"start":124.882,"end":138.948,"text":"IC的電腦的供應的相關的周邊零組件產品等等而這個副出口值扣合的是我等一下要問的題目就是這個進來台灣做了一定的加工之後再出去的這個更多因為"},{"start":139.648,"end":154.178,"text":"台灣的這個技術上面非常好我想問的就是財政部跟經濟部目前知道是哪些貨物嗎不知道也沒有關係那麼有沒有打算要做一定的清查來做交叉分析有沒有時刻表這個部分我們可以跟經濟部一起再來做一次清理好那麼經濟部這裡呢你們有去做了解嗎"},{"start":165.149,"end":181.899,"text":"我們回去跟財政部一起來討論好 那麼我希望你們壓一個時間點要多少的時間因為我們現在還是面臨著最美談判第一線在談判後面的後援必須要給足夠的子彈"},{"start":182.979,"end":208.304,"text":"談到了才會知道說到底有多少是我們直接對美的又有多少其實是算在我們這裡但事實上他從周邊國家我們需要說周邊國家如果他們的稅率現在是高於32%的那麼他就會持續的把這個 quota 算在我們這裡喔這個不涉及我們現在在講的紅色供應鏈但確實這個也是我們全球經濟布局上面必須要面對的問題要多少時間"},{"start":210.987,"end":232.872,"text":"是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間好不好好 謝謝因為兩個禮拜的時間非常寶貴我們只有90天可以來談判來看下一張我想最近大家都在講這個所謂自由貿易港區又或者是陳玉珍委員所提出來的就是有關離島建設條例當中是不是幫中國去開後門來洗產地"},{"start":234.492,"end":257.942,"text":"前面我們要擔心的是別的稅率對等高一稅高於台灣的國家同樣的也用所謂的付出口值來加深我們對美的逆差順差但是在自由貿易港區有關於這個違法的部分是不是法環太低那麼這個部分是不是應該做討論那麼現在部內財政部有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":258.968,"end":277.964,"text":"市務委員報告對於自貿港區管理條例裡面因為管理條例這個部分是交通部主管那它這個部分處的是三萬元以上三十萬元以下事實上是比貿易法來的低因為貿易法我們剛剛知道最高是到三百萬那這個部分可以建議交通部是不是要考慮提高相關的罰則"},{"start":279.605,"end":293.81,"text":"好其實組織單位雖然是交通部啦但是我們現在全面所面臨的包括來自於國際上面或美方整個經濟情勢上面的壓力就像如您所說的他跟其他的貿易法方來說他的"},{"start":295.951,"end":298.234,"text":"確實新台幣3萬到30萬這個大家都會覺得說你到貿易港區被罰一下如果我可以賺幾個億我罰個30萬有什麼這個確實啦賠錢的生意沒人做但是沙頭的生意只要能夠賺"},{"start":311.428,"end":323.311,"text":"有人還是會願意這個部分我希望財政部經濟部跟交通部在這個部分我們在罰則的部分也必須要好好的一起來做一個通盤的檢討因為現在就是在我們面臨關稅談判的最前線的最後關鍵90天最後有一個來下一張我趕快的來講一下因為我們即將在立法院有一個跨黨派的訪問團包括我在內我們也都要到華府去當我們面對"},{"start":339.635,"end":365.414,"text":"外國的國會議員的時候他們只有一句話那就是你的立法院你所訂定的法規到底是協助中國席產地還是我們的法規是要杜絕中國席產地我在國防外交委員會的時候其實我質詢過江正次了次長會認為現在的國民黨所提出來的離島建設條例他們沒有打算要撤喔但是我也知道說實話啦"},{"start":366.815,"end":390.403,"text":"部長我現在不在財委會啦你要面對的這個提案人是在我們財委會的委員你可能不好說但是我就先問你離島建設條例為什麼會特別提出來就是因為金門它本身就不是一個國際港所以它無法用我們自由貿易港區對不對所以它現在另外提了這條我只問如果現在這個法案在立法院如果今天"},{"start":391.743,"end":407.849,"text":"財政部你不表態現在的立法院就是藍白會過多數他說今天明天院會說要拿出來表決就可以過喔所以我想問財政部的立場這樣的法案有沒有息產地的疑慮如果今天我遇到了美國的國會議員"},{"start":409.329,"end":430.919,"text":"我要怎麼轉達我們財政部經濟部的說法我要告訴他的是說現在的立法院就是藍白戰多數所以這種法案就是可以在金門過關可以大大地說我幫大陸地區的人民法人團體機構資金物品商品勞務跟服務他能夠政府適度地給相關的鬆綁會不會鬆綁這樣的法規請問財政部經濟部怎麼看要不要給鬆綁"},{"start":438.764,"end":451.835,"text":"這次在談判裡面有關違規轉運的部分是一個還有出口管制是非常重要的一個談判的一個關鍵點我想這個部分要非常的注意所以政府會不會給大陸地區也是中國適度的鬆綁會嗎"},{"start":455.118,"end":467.849,"text":"怎麼會對中國大陸來鬆綁呢?因為他們被美國克徵145%的那個不是,我是說他會進來台灣啊就是因為他克了145啊台灣現在目前是10啊那我們會加強的查核啊好,會加強的查核,經濟部也是嗎?"},{"start":474.895,"end":485.898,"text":"所以本席見到美國的國會議員的時候我可以請他放心立法院雖然民進黨現在不是多數但是至少我們的中央政府會守住這種法案我們是堅決反對的不敢講喔那這樣子我跟兩位報告我們前方談判前方吃緊後方緊吃啊"},{"start":497.947,"end":513.932,"text":"很麻煩啊不會的 我想大家我們會是談判團隊的最後的一個最好的後盾好 絕對不會讓中國洗產地至少這個話你們講得出來吧來 部長會讓中國洗產地嗎我們一定要努力的阻絕這樣洗產地的行為好 政司呢我們也不容許這樣的行為發生好 謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1120,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時46分）謝謝主席，撐到中午，辛苦了。有請莊部長及經濟部江政次。"],["主席：請莊部長、江次長。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，我想詢問的部分其實前面蠻多委員都已經詢問過，我就針對我想要理解的部分就教部長。首先，其實防堵紅色供應鏈，現在全世界都在清查自己對美的貿易跟出口的部分，本席特別跟關務署提到，就是美國現在公布，包括他們原本的，現在雖然是暫緩實施90天，但是幾個國家在對等關稅的稅率當中，從50%到41%都有，台灣是32%，許多國家像越南、緬甸這些新南向的國家，包括泰國的37%及孟加拉的37%等等，其實這個對台灣的影響，過去我們當然也知道，我們為了去紅供應鏈而有新南向政策，這個部分根據本席所瞭解是台灣對美的復出口值，從2016到2024這8年來成長了153%，過去大家都在問的，就是除了我們直接對美的出口之外，這種所謂的對美的復出口值在8年來就有153%成長率的時候，到底是哪些物品？又或者是財政部、或者跟經濟部之間有沒有一個詳細的數字？因為過去我所關心的當然是我們直接對美的出口，包括前幾名有一些AI、IC、電腦供應的相關周邊零組件產品等等，而這個復出口值扣合的是我等一下要問的題目，就是近來台灣做了一定的加工之後再出去的更多，因為台灣在技術面非常好。我想問的是，財政部跟經濟部目前知道是哪些貨物嗎？不知道也沒有關係，有沒有打算要做一定的清查來做交叉分析？有沒有時刻表？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們可以跟經濟部一起做一次清理。"],["林委員楚茵：經濟部呢？你們有去做瞭解嗎？"],["江次長文若：我們回去跟財政部一起來討論。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我希望你們押一個時間點，要多少的時間？因為我們現在還是面臨著對美談判，第一線在談判，後面的後援必須要給足夠的子彈，屆時才會知道到底有多少是我們直接對美的？又有多少其實是算在我們這裡？但事實上它是從周邊國家，我們必須說周邊國家如果他們的稅率高於32%，那麼他們就會持續的把這個quota算在我們這裡，這個不涉及我們現在在講的紅色供應鏈，但確實這個也是我們全球經濟布局上面必須要面對的問題。你們要多少時間？"],["莊部長翠雲：是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間，好不好？"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝，因為兩個禮拜的時間非常寶貴，我們只有90天可以來談判。","繼續看下一張。最近大家都在講所謂自由貿易港區，又或者是陳玉珍委員所提出來的，即有關離島建設條例當中是不是幫中國去開後門來洗產地？前面我們要擔心的是別的稅率、對等關稅稅率高於台灣的國家，同樣的也用所謂的復出口值來加深我們對美的順差，但是在自由貿易港區，有關於這個違法的部分是不是罰鍰太低？這個部分是不是應該做討論？現在財政部有沒有什麼樣的想法？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於自貿港區管理條例裡面，因為管理條例是交通部主管，這個部分是處3萬元以上30萬元以下，事實上是比貿易法處的來得低，因為貿易法好像最高是到300萬，這個部分可以建議交通部是不是考慮提高相關的罰則。"],["林委員楚茵：好，主責單位雖然是交通部，但是我們現在全面所面臨的，包括來自於國際上或美方整個經濟情勢上面的壓力，就如您所說的，它跟其他的貿易法來說，確實處新臺幣3萬到30萬，大家都會認為到貿易港區被罰一下，如果可以賺幾個億，那罰個30萬有什麼？這個確實是啦，賠錢的生意沒人做，但是殺頭的生意只要能夠賺，有人還是會願意。我希望財政部、經濟部跟交通部對罰則的部分也必須好好做通盤的檢討，因為現在就是我們面臨關稅談判最前線的最後關鍵90天。","最後我要講一下，立法院即將有一個跨黨派的訪問團，包括我在內，我們都要到華府，當我們面對外國的國會議員的時候，他們只有一句話，就是我們立法院所訂定的法規，到底是協助中國洗產地還是要杜絕中國洗產地？我在外交及國防委員會已經質詢過江政次了，次長會認為現在國民黨所提出來的離島建設條例，他們沒有打算要撤喔，但是我也知道，說實話，部長，我現在不在財委會啦，你要面對的這個提案人是在我們財委會的委員，你可能不好說。但是，我就先問你，離島建設條例為什麼會特別提出來？就是因為金門本身就不是一個國際港，所以無法用自由貿易港區對不對？所以他現在另外提了這條，我只問如果現在這個法案在立法院、如果今天財政部不表態，現在的立法院就是藍白會過多數，如果他說明天院會要拿出來表決就可以過喔，所以我想問財政部的立場，這樣的法案有沒有洗產地的疑慮？如果今天我遇到了美國的國會議員，我要怎麼轉達我們財政部、經濟部的說法？我要告訴他們現在的立法院就是藍白占多數，所以這種法案就是可以在金門過關，可以大剌剌的說是在幫大陸地區的人民、法人、團體、機構、資金、物品、商品、勞務或服務，政府能夠適度的給相關的鬆綁，會不會鬆綁？請問財政部、經濟部怎麼看這樣的法規？要不要給鬆綁？"],["莊部長翠雲：這次在談判裡面，有關違規轉運的部分及出口管制是談判一個非常重要的關鍵點，我想這個部分要非常的注意。"],["林委員楚茵：所以政府會不會給大陸地區也就是中國適度的鬆綁？會嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：怎麼會對中國大陸來鬆綁呢？因為他們被美國課徵145%的關稅……"],["林委員楚茵：不是，我是說他們會進來台灣，就是因為它被課145%，那台灣目前是10%，那我可以……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，當然不會鬆綁啊，我們會加強查核。"],["林委員楚茵：好，會加強查核。經濟部也是嗎？"],["江次長文若：是的。"],["林委員楚茵：所以本席見到美國的國會議員的時候，我可以請他放心，立法院雖然民進黨現在不是多數，但是至少我們的中央政府會守住，這種法案我們是堅決反對的，不敢講喔？那這樣子的話，我跟兩位報告，我們前方談判是前方吃緊、後方緊吃啊！很麻煩啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會的，我想我們會是談判團隊最後一個最好的後盾。"],["林委員楚茵：好，絕對不會讓中國洗產地，至少這個話你們講得出來吧？來，部長，會讓中國洗產地嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一定要努力的阻絕這樣的洗產地行為。"],["林委員楚茵：好，政次呢？"],["江次長文若：我們也不容許這樣的行為發生。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楚茵委員。","接著請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfc9d23c07ff8cc951b2710058b23c04f81a52cf64e50924c04c7f6e4539bc04505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:45:00 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部長好"},{"start":49.66,"end":65.201,"text":"因为在今年初就传出来除了台积电除了联电我们有七大代工厂我们有七大代工厂包含鸿海广达伟创维影一叶达仁宝和朔"},{"start":65.942,"end":80.723,"text":"他們將在將在這個可能是五月份或者是最近他們會到美國去做訪問而且提出七大代工廠可能在川普"},{"start":81.384,"end":93.815,"text":"就只百日的時間左右的時間會宣布新的重大投資那其中是有關於德州竹科會不會造成整個產業外移的狀況"},{"start":96.738,"end":98.94,"text":"所以我想請問部長跟諸位第一個你們有沒有掌握到我們七大代工廠什麼時候會去出發到美國還有預計他們會不會宣布新的投資案我先請部長講好了"},{"start":114.481,"end":139.662,"text":"报告委员我想最近这几天这个新闻上面也有披露这个NVIDIA即将投资就邀请这几家厂商5000亿美元的AI投资包括Apple也曾经宣告5000亿美元的投资这些因为我们跟美国的这个科技的互补"},{"start":140.598,"end":170.032,"text":"非常的緊密包括很多的產品幾乎過去整個供應鏈都是由台灣來做所以不管是做EMS所以不管是輝達的5000億Apple的5000億這裡面都包含台灣的資金台灣的廠商是嗎這個台灣的資金非常的小因為我們只做EMS所以我們去那邊只做代工替他生產而已所以那個投資金額相對於5000億是很小的金額"},{"start":170.663,"end":199.365,"text":"那我想請問一下我們的七大代工廠我們這幾個月這幾個月會四月或五月他們要一起出發到美國嗎有掌握嗎我們對廠商的這個活動啊都有一些聯繫新聞都有了不可能你們沒有掌握你們總要去問一下吧我們是有掌握有掌握所以他們確實會去那我想請問一下那麼在這個川普就職百日的時候除了剛才講的"},{"start":200.546,"end":222.405,"text":"不管是辉达的投资或者是Apple的投资就主要是我们台湾的厂商会不会在5月10号附近然后我们有新的投资案的宣布我跟委员报告一下我们销美国的AI Server67%是从墨西哥过去"},{"start":223.626,"end":243.055,"text":"從墨西哥過去佔了67%在這一波我們其實有找廠商談過如果台灣的關稅比較高的時候他們會Leverage墨西哥來做生產因為台灣出去美國的部分是比較少的那就我的了解有些廠商現在是有計畫從墨西哥移過去"},{"start":243.955,"end":260.297,"text":"從墨西哥移過去是有部分廠商是有跟我提到所以不是從台灣移過去是把原來在墨西哥的廠因為我們在墨西哥廠確實很多要從墨西哥移過去所以我的意思說所以在5月10號附近會有新的投資案的宣布"},{"start":262.232,"end":282.764,"text":"會不會有新的投資案的宣佈會由廠商來做決定喔政府不會去幫他們做任何的宣佈啦好 因為我時間的關係喔但是目前並沒有這裡面的每一家啦但是會有蠻多家都已經有了那原來也有一些在德州就有工廠的喔那這個會擴大既有的工廠"},{"start":286.555,"end":312.084,"text":"所以這就是其實所謂的德州足科還是應該要去關切因為時間關係我想請教那個部長因為我們的總統府副秘書長張宗涵他在前不久跑去參加一個政論節目他說在立法院裡面我們立法院刪除了中小企業的新創企業科技運用的預算請問有刪除嗎部長"},{"start":319.11,"end":328.334,"text":"沒有沒有請問一下中小企業新創企業科技發展的預算34億878萬7千元有刪除嗎報告沒有沒有請問經濟部特別收入基金01撥補中小企業發展基金21億有刪除嗎只有凍結有凍結"},{"start":343.274,"end":356.191,"text":"有冻结吗没有没有冻结没有删除好来中小企业新创企业科技发展02强化资金规划运用能力奖补助费32亿5350万请问有删除吗"},{"start":360.011,"end":367.953,"text":"沒有都沒有好所以呢謝謝部長的回答因為經濟部的預算經濟部最清楚雖然幕僚來告訴你所以我在這邊要請部長好跟不管是院的高層或府的高層預算的情形我想各部會最清楚那麼我們預算在3月21號已經經過總統府公告所以事實俱在"},{"start":386.559,"end":391.987,"text":"但是身為總統府副秘書長竟然在已經預算公告之後公然造謠然後造成社會的一個恐懼或動盪因為很多中小企業如果相信張春寒所說的話"},{"start":402.321,"end":409.566,"text":"他可能以為他的相關的補助的預算被刪除了可是部長在這邊非常謝謝部長把他做澄清了那這個部分我想經濟部都會確實來執行所以在這裡請部長去跟行政院尤其跟總統府反映如果他們對預算有些什麼疑慮有些什麼問題請他們直接問經濟部請他們直接問"},{"start":430.021,"end":442.906,"text":"部長 而不是應該在那邊隨便的跑到政論節目拿不實的消息來造謠 好嗎 可以嗎報告委員 他只是講說剛開始有但是他也了解沒有刪"},{"start":443.908,"end":455.14,"text":"他了解沒有刪除 還在那邊說把那個曾經程序 然後做一些說法這不叫造謠嗎 會讓企業我要講的是 我們現在這麼多中小企業這麼擔心有關於美國對等關稅的衝擊其實大家已經非常驚嚇了"},{"start":466.252,"end":486.211,"text":"我們的政府官員尤其政府的高官不應該隨便的去嚇唬老百姓嚇唬中小企業正確的資訊請我們政府應該要帶頭提供而不是帶頭去混淆資訊然後製造不實的訊息好不好那麼謝謝部長跟謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時37分）好，謝謝主席。我請我們劉主委，還有我們的郭部長。"],["主席：劉主委，郭部長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，主委好。部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：這幾年我們非常關心的，除了對等關稅之外，另外就是我們臺灣的電子廠商到美國投資的狀況，之前我們討論很多台積電到美國投資，以及即將會成行的聯電到美國投資，部長，我在總質詢的時候曾經問過，因為在今年初就傳出來，除了台積電、除了聯電，我們有七大代工廠，包含鴻海、廣達、緯創、緯穎、英業達、仁寶、和碩，他們將在5月份或最近到美國去訪問，而且七大代工廠可能在川普就職百日左右的時間宣布新的重大投資，其中有關於德州竹科會不會造成整個產業外移的狀況，所以我想請問部長跟主委：第一個，你們有沒有掌握到我們七大代工廠什麼時候會出發到美國？還有，預計他們會不會宣布新的投資案？我先請部長講好了。"],["郭部長智輝：好。報告委員，最近這幾天新聞上面也有披露NVDIA即將投資在美國5,000億美元。"],["王委員鴻薇：AI的投資？"],["郭部長智輝：AI的投資。包括Apple也曾經宣告5,000億美元的投資。因為我們跟美國之間科技的互補非常緊密，包括很多的產品，過去整個供應鏈幾乎都是由臺灣來做，不管是做EMS……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以，不管是輝達的5,000億，還是Apple的5,000億，這裡面都包含臺灣的資金、臺灣的廠商，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣的資金非常的小，因為我們只做EMS，所以我們去那邊只做代工，替他們生產而已，所以那個投資金額相對於5,000億，是很小的金額。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我想請問一下，我們的七大代工廠，在這幾個月，4月或5月，他們要一起出發到美國嗎？你有掌握嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對廠商的活動都有一些聯繫。"],["王委員鴻薇：新聞都有了，你們不可能沒有掌握，你們總是要去問一下吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是有掌握。"],["王委員鴻薇：有掌握，所以他們確實會去？那我想請問一下，在川普就職百日的時候，除了剛才講的，不管是輝達的投資或者是Apple的投資，主要是我們臺灣的廠商會不會在5月10日附近有新的投資案的宣布？劉主委講一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告一下，我們銷美國的AI server有67%是從墨西哥過去，從墨西哥過去的占了67%。在這一波，我們其實有找廠商談過，如果臺灣的關稅比較高的時候他們會移往墨西哥來生產，因為臺灣銷往美國的部分是比較少的。那就我的了解，有些廠商現在是有計畫從墨西哥移過去。從墨西哥移過去，是有部分廠商跟我提到。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以不是從臺灣移過去，是把原來放在墨西哥的廠的貨移過去，因為我們在墨西哥的廠確實很多，所以要從墨西哥移過去？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我的意思是說，在5月10日附近會有新的投資案的宣布？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：會不會有新的投資案的宣布，會由廠商來決定，政府不會去幫他們做任何的宣布。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那因為我時間的關係……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實目前並不是這裡面的每一家都有，但是會有滿多家都已經有了，原來也有一些在德州就有工廠的，會擴大既有的工廠。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以對於所謂的德州竹科，還是應該要去關切。","好，因為時間的關係，我想請教部長，我們的總統府副秘書長張惇涵前不久跑去參加一個政論節目，他說，在立法院裡面，我們立法委員刪除了中小企業的新創企業科技運用的預算，請問：有刪除嗎？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有。","請問一下，中小企業新創企業科技發展的預算34億878萬7,000元有刪除嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告，沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有。","請問：「經濟部特別收入基金」「01 撥補中小企業發展基金」21億有刪除嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：只有凍結。"],["王委員鴻薇：有凍結，有凍結嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有。沒有凍結、沒有刪除。","好，來，「中小企業新創企業科技發展」「02 強化資金規劃運用能力獎補助費」32億5,350萬，請問：有刪除嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：都沒有。","好，所以呢，謝謝部長的回答。因為經濟部的預算經濟部最清楚，雖然幕僚來告訴你，所以我在這邊要請教部長，不管是院的高層或府的高層，預算的情形各部會最清楚，我們的預算在3月21日已經經過總統府公告，所以事實俱在，但是身為總統府副秘書長，竟然在預算已經公告之後公然造謠，然後造成社會的恐懼或動盪，因為很多中小企業如果相信張惇涵所說的話，就可能以為他們的補助相關預算被刪除了，可是部長在這邊，我非常謝謝部長澄清了。好，那這個部分，我想經濟部都會確實來執行，所以在這裡，請部長去跟行政院反映，尤其跟總統府反映，如果他們對預算有些什麼疑慮，有些什麼問題，請他們直接問經濟部，請他們直接問部長，而不是在那邊隨便地跑到政論節目，拿不實的消息來造謠，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，他只是講說剛開始有，但是他也了解沒有刪。"],["王委員鴻薇：他了解沒有刪除，還在那邊把那個程序做一些說法，這不叫造謠嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他在講之前的時候，這是時間上面的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是，現在這麼多中小企業這麼擔心有關於美國對等關稅的衝擊，其實大家已經非常驚嚇了，我們的政府官員，尤其政府的高官，不應該隨便地去嚇唬老百姓、嚇唬中小企業，正確的資訊，請我們政府帶頭提供，而不是帶頭去混淆資訊，然後製造不實的訊息，好不好？謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝主委。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請廖先翔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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再見柏定關稅如果用從零關稅或很低的關稅去談馬上影響到就是你的關稅收入減少對不對"},{"start":84.397,"end":95.164,"text":"我們統計過113年從美國進口的貨物我們實際課真的關稅大概是7.5億美元大概247億7.5億美元你去年整體的關稅收入多少差不多1500億1609股尼關稅的收入是1609那美國呢"},{"start":114.599,"end":117.8,"text":"所以美國是247億我剛剛講是7.5億的美元在我們關稅的佔比高達15.38所以現在要跟全民講清楚如果真的我們的關稅歸零"},{"start":130.445,"end":158.818,"text":"對美的關稅歸零 從零關稅來算我們的稅損就是224億的新台幣了在我們關稅的15.38所以保定 你要極力 也要試著要去爭取歸零這對全民的關稅收入影響非常的大在談判的時候 我想我們的談判團隊會有各種不同的相關的策略跟情境來做討論我想這個部分不是 就像委員講說"},{"start":159.838,"end":183.794,"text":"全部都歸零啦好的談判就是有給也有拿所以我才說你要給跟拿的同時你要抓好你要知道跟全民講說這邊牽扯到247億而且它更重要它不是只有美國如果是美國零的話零關稅那我們跟其他國家FTA那個會有很大衝擊欸最近我們光是跟紐西蘭你看一個先來"},{"start":185.745,"end":211.126,"text":"一個先生現在要零關稅進來對不對你看那個對台灣的那個產業就已經影響很大了對我們關稅也有影響啊所以部長我先問你這個問題我們讓全民知道關稅的損失零關稅是這麼大的那如果一趴兩趴當然損害會很大所以問財政部要盡量幫我們人民爭取權利另外裡面牽扯到一個比較大的這個進口關稅如果是零啊農業部的次長在現場我來問一下杜Sir"},{"start":215.063,"end":240.291,"text":"我看那個養雞協會歷史上有照出來說如果零關稅 聽到這個 他們嚇都嚇死對不對 你有看到嗎 養豬協會也是緊張到所有跟農業跟畜牧業有關的看到這個零 或者關稅很低 都嚇到了我問你一下 我們現在米啊米 現在每一年從國外配合進來的米有多少"},{"start":242.725,"end":251.049,"text":"大概有14萬公噸14萬4720公噸美國就佔了其中的45%其中就佔了45%然後我跟你講你知道我們台灣平均起來一公斤的米大概多少錢一公斤到哪裡?40塊左右,來我們農糧署來"},{"start":269.068,"end":297.541,"text":"你現在平均一公斤多少錢平均白米是四十塊四十多嘛白米再加其他米大概五十米夠了米夠米差不多一公斤多少大概三十五塊左右三十到三十五嘛所以你看美國是大面積耕種他的米很多價格又比我們少那米如果進來你如果真的用你把取消配額我們現在用一個配額在那邊美國已經佔了我們的四十五趴了"},{"start":300.253,"end":324.405,"text":"配額現在是賣多少?一公斤四十五嘛配額內是賣多少?配額內是零關稅配額外四十五塊還有權利金權利金平均起來大概十幾塊所以你看我們台灣米差不多四兆到四十五塊美國米大概三十到三五他們配額進來四十五那你現在把它全部要降到零關稅"},{"start":327.867,"end":340.126,"text":"那這完蛋了等於是美國將近30塊米進來打垮了我們台灣的50塊的這個米所以這米這一塊我明確的要求次長回去跟部長講清楚今天招信員都在米啊"},{"start":341.107,"end":353.096,"text":"不能零關稅而且價格不能太低所有談判都會以農業保障那些農民最優先一定要保障到農民的那個要不然的話我跟你講不只是那個整個米價整個被衝擊了我們30萬那個跟農有關係的到農生活就受影響了這就是內容喔我們的那個整個那個"},{"start":360.751,"end":370.654,"text":"整個那個農業會很大影響保障台灣農業最優先牛肉是10.10%嘛對不對豬肉12.5%雞肉雞肉傷20%影響最大雞肉如果是從20%以下降到零的話那就太慘了也要幫我們台灣的農業做最優勝的事情我知道大家主席已經站起來了我做個結論"},{"start":388.513,"end":417.908,"text":"我做要求三個結論 部長你聽一下現在我們都看到了 你看戴文老將 現在處境真的很艱困啊川普是從最高的32先丟出來 然後往下慢慢降我們是從零啊 我們必須要美國保護我們要表現我們的友善 甚至是投降 我們從零開始談你看兩個是落差非常的大的所以我們至少要做三件事情 我今天具體的要求第一 行政院本來我去行政院這個草野協商的時候啊"},{"start":419.195,"end":441.811,"text":"就說要提出一個細部的衝擊影響評估報告現在細部還沒出來在一個禮拜內給我這個第二個我們剛才講的我們現在全部都看到大部分都在講說什麼事我們賣到美國那邊關稅人家課多少可是我們國內現在人民影響會更大是什麼其實不是只有出去我們進來的時候剛講不是全部都用"},{"start":443.032,"end":465.588,"text":"不只不能零關稅關稅也不能太低要不然第一個剛講到的關稅損失的第二個對我們農產品對我們的產業影響很大所以這塊到底影響是什麼所以我要求第二個從經濟部跟農業部針對我國被迫要降低關稅這一塊甚至是零關稅你到底對我們衝擊有多大一個禮拜給我一份報告好不好這本來應該是你們就應該有的嘛對不對"},{"start":468.814,"end":483.688,"text":"當總統講說可能用從零關稅開始談,您本來就應該有這個東西囉好不好,一個禮拜時間給我這個,好不好第三個,現在他碰到的問題就是降低那個非關稅障礙冒害那個非關稅的那個障礙的影響那個衝擊報告也給我一份一個禮拜,可以嗎"},{"start":484.639,"end":498.079,"text":"好 謝謝應該是總統對外講說從零關稅開始談應該是有的東西嘛市長你們手上應該都有對不對有吧你們不會打給總統吧應該有吧有齁那一個禮拜一個禮拜給我應該送過來我28號我們那個立法院的訪問團就要去美国一個禮拜給我"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1038,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時32分）請莊部長、經濟部江次長、農業部杜次長。"],["主席：請莊部長、江次長、杜次長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：大家這段時間辛苦了，我們要共體時艱、共赴國難。江次長還特別代表我們代表團去跟美國談判，稍後請教有關進度的問題。本席現在先問比較關鍵的，其實這段時間的談判，引起大家最大衝擊的就是我們賴總統說的，從零關稅開始談起，那至少會有三個層面的影響會非常大，第一，我們關稅直接會減損多少？第二，如果真的是零關稅或者關稅非常低，對產業衝擊會很大，還有非關稅的障礙。我先來請教財政部長，關稅如果從零關稅或很低的關稅去談，馬上影響到的就是我們的關稅收入減少，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們統計過113年從美國進口的貨物，我們實際課徵的關稅大概是7.5億美元，大概247億新台幣……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，你說多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：7.5億美元。"],["張委員啓楷：去年整體的關稅收入多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：差不多1,500億。"],["張委員啓楷：去年關稅的收入是1,609億，那美國呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：美國是247億，這是新臺幣，我剛剛講是7.5億的美元，新臺幣是247億。"],["張委員啓楷：占我們關稅的占比高達15.38%，所以現在要跟全民講清楚，如果真的我們的關稅歸零，對美的關稅歸零，用從零關稅來算，我們的稅損就是224億新臺幣了，占我們關稅的15.38%。所以部長要極力也要試著去爭取，歸零對我們全民的關稅收入影響非常大。"],["莊部長翠雲：在談判的時候，我們的談判團隊會有各種不同的相關策略跟情境來做討論，我想這個部分不是就像委員所講的全部都歸零。"],["張委員啓楷：當然了，好的談判就是有給也有拿，所以我才說你在給跟拿的同時要抓好，你要跟全民講這邊牽扯到247億。而且更重要的不是只有美國，如果是美國零關稅，我們跟其他國家FTA會有很大衝擊，最近我們光是跟紐西蘭，你看鮮奶現在要零關稅進來，對不對？你看那個對台灣的產業就已經影響很大了，對我們關稅也有影響啊！所以部長我先問你這個問題，我們讓全民知道，關稅的損失若是零關稅是這麼大的，如果是1%、2%，當然損害會很大，所以財政部要儘量幫我們人民爭取權利。","另外，裡面牽扯到一個比較大的，進口關稅如果是零，農業部次長在現場，我來請教一下，我看養雞協會理事長出來說如果零關稅的話，他們聽到這個嚇都嚇死了，對不對？你有看到嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：有。"],["張委員啓楷：養豬協會也是很緊張，所有跟農業、跟畜牧業有關的，看到這個零或者關稅很低都嚇到了。我問一下米的部分，現在每一年從國外配額進來的米有多少？"],["杜次長文珍：大概有54萬公噸……14萬公噸。"],["張委員啓楷：差太多了啦！14萬4,720公噸，美國就占了其中的45%。次長，你知道台灣平均1公斤米大概多少錢嗎？你們的專家有在嘛？"],["杜次長文珍：請農糧署黃副署長向委員說明。"],["張委員啓楷：現在米平均起來1公斤多少錢？"],["黃副署長昭興：平均白米是40塊。"],["張委員啓楷：四十多嘛，白米加其他米大概要50。美國米大概1公斤多少？"],["黃副署長昭興：大概35塊左右。"],["張委員啓楷：30到35塊嘛！所以你看，美國是大面積耕種，他們的米很多，價格又比我們少，那他們的米如果進來，我們現在是用一個配額在那邊，美國已經占了我們的45%了，對不對？配額現在是賣1公斤45塊，配額內是賣多少？"],["黃副署長昭興：配額內是零關稅，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：配額外是45塊，對不對？"],["黃副署長昭興：還有權利金，權利金平均起來大概十幾塊。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你看我們台灣米差不多40到45塊，美國米大概30到35塊，他們配額進來45塊，你現在把它全部都降到零關稅，那這完蛋了，等於是美國將近30塊的米進來，打垮了我們台灣50塊的米。所以我對米這一塊明確的要求，次長回去跟部長講清楚，米不能零關稅，而且價格不能太低。"],["杜次長文珍：所有談判都會保障農業，且以農民最優先。"],["張委員啓楷：一定要保障到農民，要不然的話我跟你講，不只是整個米價被衝擊了，我們30萬跟農有關係的稻農，生活就受影響了。"],["杜次長文珍：所有都以保障台灣農業為最後優先。"],["張委員啓楷：這就是滅農喔，我們整個農業會有很大影響。"],["杜次長文珍：保障台灣農業最優先。"],["張委員啓楷：我再請教，牛肉是10%嘛，對不對？豬肉12.5%，雞肉多少？雞肉現在影響最大。"],["杜次長文珍：20%。"],["張委員啓楷：雞肉如果從20%一下降到零的話，那就太慘了。"],["杜次長文珍：也是要保障我們台灣的農業，做最優先的考量。"],["張委員啓楷：主席已經站起來了，我做個結論。我提出三個要求，部長聽一下。我們都看到台灣現在的處境真的很艱困，川普是從最高的32%先丟出來，然後往下慢慢降，反觀我們是從零，我們需要美國保護我們，我們要表現友善，甚至是投降，我們從零開始談，你看兩個的落差是非常的大，所以我們至少要做三件事情，我今天具體的要求：第一，我去行政院推行協商的時候，就說要提出一個細部的衝擊影響評估報告，現在細部的還沒出來，在一個禮拜內給我這個。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第二，我們剛才講的，我們現在全部都看到，大部分都在講什麼是我們賣到美國那邊，關稅人家課多少，可是我們國內現在人民影響會更大的是什麼？其實不是只有出去，我們進來的時候，不只不能零關稅，關稅也不能太低，要不然會有我剛剛講到的關稅損失，對我們的農產品及對我們的產業影響很大，所以這塊到底影響是什麼？所以我要求從經濟部跟農業部，針對我國被迫要降低關稅這一塊，甚至是零關稅，到底對我們衝擊有多大，請一個禮拜內給我一個報告好不好？這本來是你們應該有的嘛，對不對？當總統講可能從零關稅開始談，你們本來就應該有這個東西了，請一個禮拜的時間給我這個，好不好？","第三，現在還碰到一個問題就是降低非關稅障礙的影響，那個衝擊報告也給我一份，一個禮拜的時間可以嗎？這應該是總統對外講從零關稅開始談，你們應該就有的東西嘛，你們手上應該都有對不對？有吧？你們不會打臉總統吧？應該有吧？有喔？"],["主席：次長，儘快把資料提供給張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜給我喔！一定要送過來，28號我們立法院訪問團要去美國，一個禮拜內給我。"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜給我。謝謝，一起加油。"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員。","繼續請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df6fb539eef2144965b2710058b23c04f81a52cf64e50924c087405cc7a6e4ec875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:31:14 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报告委员我想我们这一些措施都是动态的也就是说我们到现在还是持续地在跟业者沟通那目前看起来我们到现在包括我们的call center包括我们的马上办中心我们现在所接的案子来看"},{"start":293.553,"end":317.129,"text":"事實上並沒有那麼危急並沒有那麼危急這個是一個事實的報告那如果這個金額已經接近我們的這個預定的一半的話當然我們會啟動新的這樣的一個來舒緩或者是紓困的一個措施好 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因為我們其實有20%的金額是進其他國家 像是美國進日本的保健食品而那是我們國人所需要的我如果用一句話形容就是說 其實那是我們深斗小民啊我們小市民們的小確幸而已嘛"},{"start":83.035,"end":106.215,"text":"第一個金額那麼小才兩千元我們這個免稅的敏感是全世界最低的你看看其他國家新加坡南韓日本那遠比我們高我相信部長這裡很清楚新加坡甚至高達美金298元一萬元台幣之多"},{"start":111.055,"end":132.766,"text":"即便日本低一點 88美元也3000台幣而且美日韓其他他們國家對於這個小額的部分他們還不限次數而我們2000元的小額這個包裹"},{"start":134.512,"end":155.248,"text":"還限半年六次等於一年十二次也不過兩萬四千元所以我認為這個部分這百分之二十總額百分之二十的這個小額包裹應該保留這是給我們深斗小民的小確幸"},{"start":156.909,"end":172.054,"text":"那至於80%從中國來的這個部分我覺得這一次去取消去設限是應當的啦因為避免他們洗產地嘛這是事實喔 這是事實那"},{"start":173.885,"end":189.418,"text":"他們中共的這個貨品席產地這個情況我相信部長你很清楚嘛他們整個貨櫃進到加拿大到墨西哥那邊然後再透過小額豁免這個條款"},{"start":192.13,"end":217.789,"text":"那麼他們透過他們中國的電商小額貨美這個大量的再去進去美國所以這次美國把它取消就這樣那個金額多高欸460億美金欸一兆五千億台幣啦所以這種大金額那這個當然美國他們的考量我們來借鏡是對的所以部長我希望"},{"start":219.059,"end":228.703,"text":"在這裡面我們台灣的金額多少我相信你們很清楚我們台灣的總金額總金額332億這個小額的這個小額包裹的部分332億裡面來自中國的那麼267億佔了80%"},{"start":249.721,"end":260.528,"text":"那這20%我剛剛跟您提到的生斗小民小市民的小確幸我認為這個不要去碰可不可以"},{"start":262.125,"end":264.507,"text":"那你現在初步看法呢我覺得我這個講法是非常好非常"},{"start":283.325,"end":286.048,"text":"確實如同委員所說的80%來自中國大陸那這麼大的一個數量的話會對我們國內的產業其實也會造成衝擊的對而且對乖乖舉舉的"},{"start":297.762,"end":321.625,"text":"比方說國外來的電商 我舉例好了 新加坡來的來的電商人家在我們台灣 在國家 在我們台灣登記人家也合法繳稅 也接受我們政府 他被我們政府納管嘛人家規規矩矩的做 那最糟糕的就是中共的那邊的淘寶不是嗎"},{"start":322.734,"end":342.333,"text":"如果他真的有誠意來 他就來台灣登記嘛他也接受我們政府納管嘛 這才對嘛結果不 他們不這麼做 那很可能未來就是可能被利用為席產地嘛"},{"start":343.837,"end":367.088,"text":"所以我認為說我們有全世界門檻最低的免稅額我們才2000元那承諾我剛剛講的一年我們設限次數12次也不過24000全世界最低國外尤其自由民主國家完全不設限次數而且每一次的金額都還比我們高"},{"start":368.847,"end":381.798,"text":"那然後呢我們還有全世界最高關稅的保健食品我們的保健品的關稅部長我們討論那麼多次了百分之三十現在經濟部這個"},{"start":389.264,"end":404.329,"text":"不曉得哪一天來的佛心啦聽久了經濟部你們願意說你們考慮那38要降到20%我希望你們說到做到啦說到做到這個保健品我們全世界最高啊"},{"start":405.787,"end":427.384,"text":"連日本那麼高也才14.5韓國8% 美國6%那我們30%之多這也是這一次造成美國跟我們之間要求對等關稅的原因就在這裡所以我希望你們一起檢討第二點 江市長"},{"start":431.581,"end":451.059,"text":"我是針對你啦 你帶話回去跟你們部長講好不好你們部長齁這幾天有講了啦就是說如果因為我們這次跟美國在談判當中很可能我們就是要降低汽車的進口關稅"},{"start":452.779,"end":481.316,"text":"因為汽車進口關稅不但數十年來我們這麼高還加上我們額外增加的在美國列入的這個叫做不當的額外稅負百分之三十的貨物稅所以相乘之下等於加了六成的稅金那這個也是造成對等關稅的要求談判那麼這一點的時候我認為你代話給部長"},{"start":482.967,"end":501.505,"text":"他身為部長要謹言慎行 我們國家賴總統已經講了啊我們先釋出善意 我們願意零關稅 這當然是包括汽車啊結果郭部長就說 說如果汽車關稅驟降會釀成十幾萬人失業"},{"start":509.785,"end":534.244,"text":"這個我四個字形容這個叫危言聳聽而且對事實完全不了解我們講高關稅政府的錯誤不當的是說你高關稅這五六十年來你保護了特定的國產汽車業者就是育農保護了那個阿斗我們是指你保護了整車"},{"start":536.314,"end":563.064,"text":"是針對整車的部分我們汽車從業人員有有十幾萬但是你要分整車跟零組件的整車裕隆他們六個廠加起來也不過一萬一千五百人哪來的十幾萬人另外零組件他們才是真的人多的"},{"start":564.226,"end":592.56,"text":"零組件2500家廠總共8萬5000位民眾在那邊工作但是零組件這數十年來是靠自己的努力研發成長受到國際大廠的肯定主動來下單給我們的零組件業者你看他們做的他們做的"},{"start":593.464,"end":619.734,"text":"不管是汽車燈 汽車大燈不管是保險桿 排氣管等等啦等等這些啊 都是美國大廠 歐洲大廠你像Mercedes-Benz啊 BMW啊 Porsche啊Massarotti 欸 他們主動來下單欸因為我們做得好 而且價廉物美"},{"start":621.26,"end":646.03,"text":"那這一部分 經濟部 別人可以不曉得經濟部很清楚啊台灣汽車零組件業者是我們台灣的光榮 台灣的驕傲他每一年的產值640億美金耶2000億台幣他們不需要政府保護啊今天美國總統川普還釋出善意他還說"},{"start":648.94,"end":676.312,"text":"這次對等關稅 汽車零組件的部分他說要豁免他說要豁免啊所以根本不需要嘛我們的汽車關稅降低那是針對整車業者我們汽車零組件業者不需要這些高關稅的保護更何況我們輸往美國的部分他們還要豁免"},{"start":677.83,"end":694.86,"text":"所以這是兩回事我希望你帶話回去給郭部長他身為部長一言一行洞見觀瞻他講的話就是代表我們整個行政會我們國家的經濟政策產業政策天啊不能把"},{"start":701.783,"end":723.77,"text":"這個數十年來表現這麼好的汽車零組件業者拿來當作整車業 當作那個阿朵裕隆的保護傘拿他們來見底說這個不能這樣 這樣會影響十幾萬人的工作沒有 只影響裕隆 裕隆自己想清楚"},{"start":725.154,"end":740.398,"text":"其他的2500家的汽車零組件業者人家活得很好 活得很光榮不需要任何保護也不要被部長拿去當作浴容這個保護傘可不可以我回去會轉達跟向部長報告"},{"start":752.219,"end":773.701,"text":"你跟他要求這個事情啦好不好我希望以後不要再講這個事情啦好不好真正習慘地的是什麼那個莊部長真正習慘地的就是向日榮引進中國的AMG車他把中國的AMG車化整為零到台灣在台灣組裝所以就是稱為國產車啦"},{"start":776.258,"end":787.163,"text":"這才需要高關稅保護之下所以他用國產車的名義賣他總共前兩年他總共進了3到4萬輛銷售額超過300億"},{"start":792.826,"end":817.205,"text":"結果這才是真正的習慘地啊我們要針對的是大金額二列的這個無能的阿斗帶給我們台灣社會的傷害而不是針對小市民的小確幸一個小額包裹才兩千元而且我們還限制一年只能十二次"},{"start":818.621,"end":835.555,"text":"所以我說對中國的部分百分之八十的中國部分我們取消然後百分之二十對從美國日本進的小黑包括這個我們要繼續維持維護三頭小民的小確定可不可以"},{"start":837.059,"end":850.907,"text":"好你多久給我答覆好謝謝多久我們一個月好嗎一個月太久了太久了差不多一個禮拜一個禮拜趕快做出決定好不好好謝謝委員是好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時17分）謝謝主席，我請莊部長還有經濟部江次長。"],["主席：請部長跟江次長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您好。"],["王委員世堅：部長、次長，我有2個問題。第一個是針對中國電商在臺灣的銷售加以限制，也就是取消中國低價免稅額這個部分，我認為這是非常正確的事情，但是我要請財政部考量的一點、請財政部刀下留人的就是，要取消低額2,000元以下小額包裹免稅，我認為針對中國的部分取消就好啦！為什麼呢？因為我們其實有20%金額進口其他國家，像是進美國、進日本的保健食品，而那是我們國人所需要的。我如果用一句話形容，其實那是我們升斗小民、小市民們的小確幸而已嘛！第一，金額那麼小，才2,000元。我們這個免稅門檻是全世界最低的，你看看其他國家：新加坡、南韓、日本，都遠比我們高，我相信部長對這點很清楚，新加坡甚至高達美金298元、1萬元臺幣之多，即便日本低一點──88美元，也相當於3,000臺幣耶！而且，美、日、韓等其他國家對於這種小額包裹不限次數，但我們對2,000元的小額包裹還限半年6次，等於一年12次，總額也不過2萬4,000元，所以我認為總額20%的小額包裹應該保留，這是給升斗小民的小確幸。至於80%從中國來的這個部分，我覺得這次取消、設限是應當的啦！因為要避免他們洗產地嘛！這是事實。","對於中共貨品洗產地這個情況，我相信部長很清楚嘛！他們整個貨櫃進到加拿大、到墨西哥，然後中國電商再透過小額豁免這個條款大量輸進美國，這次美國取消的原因就是這樣。那個金額多高！460億美金，就是1兆5,000億臺幣啦！對於這種大金額，美國當然有他們的考量，而我們來借鏡是對的。部長，台灣在這裡面的金額有多少，我相信你們很清楚，台灣的總金額是332億元，也就是小額包裹的部分。而在這332億元裡面，來自中國的是267億元，占了80%。20%則如我剛剛跟您提到的，是升斗小民、小市民的小確幸，我認為這部分不要去碰，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員關心，對於小額低價包裹免稅這個部分，我們正在審慎地研議。委員建議對於中國大陸來的跟非中國大陸進來的部分做不同處理，我們都會納入參考。"],["王委員世堅：都會納入？那你們現在的初步看法呢？我覺得我這個講法是非常好、理應……"],["莊部長翠雲：確實如同委員所說的，80%來自中國大陸，這麼大的數量對我們國內的產業其實也會造成衝擊的。"],["王委員世堅：對，而且規規矩矩的業者，比方說國外來的電商，我舉例好了，新加坡來的電商在我們國家、我們台灣登記、合法繳稅、也接受我們政府納管嘛！人家規規矩矩地做。最糟糕的就是中共那邊的淘寶不是嗎？如果它真的有誠意，就來台灣登記、也接受我們政府納管，這才對嘛！結果不然，他們不這麼做，那麼很可能未來就會被利用來洗產地嘛！","我們有全世界門檻最低的免稅額，才2,000元，所以誠如我剛剛講的，一年上限次數12次，也不過2萬4,000元，是全世界最低欸！在國外，尤其自由民主國家完全不設限次數，而且每一次的金額都還比我們高。我們還有全世界最高關稅的保健食品，關於我們的保健品關稅，部長，我們討論那麼多次，有30%！經濟部不曉得哪一天來了佛心，可能是聽久了，經濟部願意考慮將那30%降到20%，我希望你們說到做到啦！我們的保健品關稅是全世界最高啊！連日本那麼高，也才14.5%喔！韓國8%、美國6%，而我們有30%之多，這一次美國要求跟我們之間的對等關稅，原因就在這裡，所以我希望你們一起檢討啦！","第二點，江次長，我是針對你啦！你帶話回去跟你們部長講，好不好？你們部長這幾天又講了，在我們這次和美國的談判當中，很可能就是要降低汽車的進口關稅，因為我們的汽車進口關稅不但數十年來都這麼高，還有額外增加的，被美國列入不當額外稅負：30%的貨物稅，相乘之下等於加了六成稅金啊！這點也引發要求對等關稅的談判。對於這一點，你帶話給部長，他身為部長要謹言慎行。我們國家、賴總統已經講了啊！我們先釋出善意、我們願意零關稅，這當然包括汽車啊！結果郭部長說，如果汽車關稅驟降，會釀成十幾萬人失業！次長，我用4個字形容，這叫「危言聳聽」！而且對事實完全不了解。我們之所以講高關稅是政府的錯誤、是不當的，是因為高關稅在這五、六十年來保護了特定國產汽車業者，也就是裕隆，保護了那個阿斗！我們是指保護了整車、是針對整車的部分。我國的汽車從業人員有十幾萬人，但是要分為整車與零組件產業，整車方面，裕隆6個廠加起來也不過1萬1,500人，哪來的十幾萬人？另外的零組件產業才是真的人多。零組件2,500家廠商，總共8萬5,000位民眾在那邊工作，但是零組件業者數十年來都是靠自己的努力、研發、成長，受到國際大廠的肯定，主動下單給我國零組件業者耶！他們做的不管是汽車大燈、保險桿、排氣管等等，這些都有美國大廠、歐洲大廠採用，像Mercedes-Benz、BMW、Porsche、Maserati，他們都主動來下單耶！因為我們做得好，而且價廉物美。對這個部分，別人可以不曉得，但經濟部很清楚啊！臺灣汽車零組件業者是我們台灣的光榮、台灣的驕傲，每一年的產值640億美金，也就是2,000億臺幣，他們不需要政府保護啊！今天美國總統川普還釋出善意，這次對等關稅針對汽車零組件的部分，他還說要豁免！他說要豁免啊！所以根本不需要嘛！我們的汽車關稅降低是針對整車業者，汽車零組件業者不需要這些高關稅的保護！更何況就我們輸往美國的部分，他們還要豁免，所以是兩回事。我希望你帶話回去給郭部長，他身為部長，一言一行動見觀瞻啊！他講的話就代表整個行政院、我們國家的經濟政策、產業政策。天啊！不能把數十年來表現這麼好的汽車零組件業者當作整車業、當作那個阿斗──裕隆的保護傘，拿它們來墊底，說這個不能降，要是降了，會影響十幾萬人的工作，沒有！只影響裕隆！裕隆自己想清楚。其他2,500家的汽車零組件業者，人家活得很好、活得很光榮，不需要任何保護，也不要被部長拿去當作裕隆的保護傘，可不可以？"],["江次長文若：我回去會轉達跟向部長報告。"],["王委員世堅：你跟他要求這個事情啦，好不好？我希望以後不要再講這個事情啦，好不好？請教莊部長，真正洗產地的是什麼？真正洗產地的就是像裕隆引進中國的MG車，它把中國的MG車化整為零到台灣，在台灣組裝，所以就稱為國產車啦，這才需要在高關稅保護之下，所以他們用國產車的名義賣。前兩年他們總共進了3到4萬輛，銷售額超過300億元，超過300億元！這才是真的大金額的洗，這才是真正的洗產地啊，我們要針對的是大金額、惡劣的，這個無能的阿斗所帶給我們台灣社會的傷害，而不是針對小市民的小確幸，一個小額包裹才2,000元，而且我們還限制一年只能12次。所以我說對中國的部分、80%的中國部分要取消，然後對20%的從美國、日本進的小額包裹這個部分要繼續維持，維護升斗小民的小確幸，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，瞭解。"],["王委員世堅：好，你多久給我答復？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一個月好嗎？"],["王委員世堅：一個月太久了。"],["莊部長翠雲：太久了？"],["王委員世堅：一個禮拜！一個禮拜趕快做出決定，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員。","繼續請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df56dfb4d06e02343af316f6363e53358e1a52cf64e50924c0cded2e234a1daf2b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:16:48 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謝謝主席 請交通部陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":18.053,"end":46.023,"text":"部長好部長好部長本期在上週的時候4月8號的時候交通部業務報告中有針對巴德地區的觀光發展提出質詢那同時當時也詢問部長有關三一線延伸至巴德的相關進度那當時本期也拿出行政院給予的回覆那當中行政院我們可以看到第三點有針對LB13站還有LB12A站因為進出的人數還有他預估的運量不足那"},{"start":47.023,"end":76.783,"text":"行政院有要求交通部督導地方政府進一步評估兩站的可行性那部長您當時回覆說會再瞭解相關的情況那過了一個禮拜不知道部長目前掌握到哪一些最新的資訊還有進展報告委員這個必要性確實當時是被行政院那個國發會他們是有提出來有一些意見那這個部分我們也跟地方政府包含桃園市政府跟新北市政府兩邊也都有溝通那目前有些進度我是不是請局長可以來回答一下"},{"start":78.585,"end":96.706,"text":"這個案子我想國發會已經完成審議了是有這個意見沒有錯但是最終還是送到院裡面那現在在院裡面再做最後的這個審查跟核定的程序也就是國發會的部分也針對這個意見已經有審核過請問部長請問局長就是你們預計就是什麼時候會完成核定"},{"start":97.546,"end":124.516,"text":"這個要看院那邊還是要再看嘛交通部這邊的程序已經都走過了那國發會的程序也應該是差不多完成了那之後就看院那邊的事情因為本席在提醒部長因為捷運山陰線目前的進度已經達百分之八十二了無人的駕駛它現在也已經啟動了那預計今年年底完工明年營運嘛那因為山陰線它延伸八德段是在交通部去年九月二十號的時候承包行政院那"},{"start":126.137,"end":143.147,"text":"我們目前這邊的了解是他還沒有核定那當時交通部呈報的路線是山陰線的LB12站那沿線新增LB12A還有LB13站兩座高架的車站那終點站則是與捷運綠線G04然後採購過的方式設置LB14地下車站那全長約4.3公里部長請問您的"},{"start":151.591,"end":177.439,"text":"就是對於新增LB12A還有LB13是否支持涉戰報告委員我們都交通部都審議過了這個是地方政府的規劃我們都尊重那交通部當然會審議那審議也已經過了那這個部分應該是OK了所以我們目前還不知道行政院的態度嗎如果因為人口數還有運量他預期的運量不足那最終他決定會同時移除這兩站那您認為會帶來什麼樣的影響"},{"start":181.663,"end":197.174,"text":"這個等他確定之後我們再來討論後續的影響是還要等確定那這邊先和部長討論您知道在台北區我們交通部所審過的是有這幾站目前我們交通部給出的意見是有這幾站那如果院那邊有另外的意見我們後續再來討論"},{"start":198.68,"end":227.228,"text":"好那這邊也另外請教部長一個問題你知道在台北捷運的系統中路段最長的是哪一段嗎這個我不清楚OK好那是把南線的龍山市站到張子翠站那它兩站的距離大概是3公里形成時間大約是4分鐘那部長如果移除LB12A和LB13這兩站那它預估的長度是4.3公里那已經明顯喔它這個長度超出台北捷運站目前最長的站距"},{"start":227.808,"end":244.762,"text":"那這樣的前提下如果未來旅客發生如果他們碰到火災還是地震其他緊急的情況那這邊是否會造成他疏散上面有難度呢報告委員您剛所提到的那個藍線捷運的部分它主要是因為跨河"},{"start":245.442,"end":271.482,"text":"所以距離才會拉這麼長那一般的捷運站來說距離不會這麼長不太會有這麼長的狀況那您記不記得就是2014年的時候有發生政解事件那當時就是從龍山市到江子翠站那它就是台北市它最長站距的路段也正因為這樣子所以要請部長再考量就是LB12A還有LB13這兩站它設置的必要性"},{"start":272.881,"end":282.603,"text":"因為我們要顧及乘客的安全目前交通部這邊沒有否定的意見沒有否定的意見因為我們看到行政院的態度他是持否定的意見所以他遲遲不肯核定"},{"start":284.366,"end":305.696,"text":"這個我們就不曉得 但是我們的部分是沒有問題部長您應該要掌握啊 因為你知道過了多少天了嘛但是國發會那邊也已經審議過了所以國發會對於這兩站 他們最後也是接受我們的說法是上禮拜本席問到部長的時候已經201天了 那至今今天是208天對 所以這個已經卡在行政院卡了208天了"},{"start":307.897,"end":335.46,"text":"對 所以希望部長能掌握就是也像行政院提出到底什麼時候可以來盡快來核定所以不只是轉達也希望部長可以做解決問題的人好OK 好 部長先請回座休息謝謝委員那這邊也請今天看一下也請行政院經貿談判辦公室副總 副總 總務副代表"},{"start":343.813,"end":372.572,"text":"顏副總好那今年2月川普他發布了加徵對台灣32%的對等關稅那4月9號他宣布實行嘛那消息一出當下造成全球的股災那這個政策不到12個小時目前川普除了宣布對除了中國之外嘛那其他地區暫緩90天那由於桃園總共有37個包邊工業區他的年產值是4.7兆那川普的對等關稅對桃園的製造業也造成了嚴重的衝擊請問次長您知道"},{"start":373.172,"end":381.264,"text":"桃園他的主要製造業有哪一些嗎我們是經貿談判部門所以對於這個國內產業的部分那這邊也請次長今天次長"},{"start":394.407,"end":410.822,"text":"市長您知道有哪一項嗎桃園大概有自通訊產業PCB那還有少部分的一些這個加工零組件這個部分是加工零組件那還有電子零件還有電腦產品還有汽車的零組件嗎那對於"},{"start":412.844,"end":441.526,"text":"這電子零件然後還有電腦電子產品的還有汽車零組件這三大產業佔我們全市桃園全市的工業產值40%那其中汽車還有它的零組件製造業更是重中之重了福特像福特六合還有國瑞還有中華三大設商都在桃園設產那根據桃園市經發局的資料顯示桃園市的全市汽車還有它的零件製造業總共有380家那前鄭文燦市長他也稱桃園市為台版的底特律"},{"start":441.986,"end":456.897,"text":"那次長這邊要請問您2020年台灣的汽車零配件全球出口產值為多少我們的整個總出口產值我們在這個報告裡面有寫這個整個車輛產業總產值達到5023億台幣那整車的部分是2077億請教您的是零配件2946億是"},{"start":471.327,"end":494.746,"text":"是那我這邊本期得到的資料那台灣的汽車零配件在出口的產值是這邊得到資料是1575億那其中消亡美國的是796億那它的比重是佔了50%所以它的順差是787億那代表我國的汽車零組件對於美國的市場還是高度依賴嘛那這邊也要請部長還有我們剛剛就是我們的"},{"start":495.487,"end":501.827,"text":"也談判代表那這邊希望可以保護本土的產業然後作為台灣最大的利益OK好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1098,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時16分）謝謝主席。請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。部長，本席在上週4月8日交通部做業務報告時，有針對八德地區的觀光發展提出質詢，同時詢問部長有關三鶯線延伸至八德的相關進度，當時本席也拿出行政院給的回復，第三點有針對LB13站和LB12a站，因為進出人數和預估的運量不足，行政院要求交通部督導地方政府，進一步評估兩站的可行性。部長，您當時回復會再了解相關情況。過了一個禮拜，不知道部長目前掌握到哪些最新的資訊和進展？"],["陳部長世凱：關於必要性，當時行政院、國發會確實有提出一些意見，這個部分我們也和地方政府溝通，包含桃園市政府和新北市政府都有溝通，目前的進度是不是請局長回答一下？"],["邱委員若華：好。"],["楊局長正君：這個案子國發會已經完成審議，他們是有這樣的意見沒有錯，但最終還是要送到行政院，現在在行政院做最後的審查和核定程序。"],["陳部長世凱：也就是說，針對這個部分，國發會已經審核過了。"],["邱委員若華：請問部長、局長，你們預計什麼時候會完成核定？"],["陳部長世凱：這要看行政院。"],["邱委員若華：還是要再看嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，交通部這邊的程序已經都走過了，國發會的程序應該也差不多完成了，之後就要看行政院的審核狀況。"],["邱委員若華：本席要再提醒部長，因為捷運三鶯線目前的進度已經達到82%，現在無人駕駛動態測試也已經啟動，預計今年年底完工，明年營運嘛！因為三鶯線延伸八德段，交通部是去年9月20日呈報行政院，就我們目前的了解是還沒有核定，當時交通部呈報的路線是三鶯線的LB12站，沿線新增LB12a和LB13站兩座高架車站，終點站則是與捷運綠線G04採共構的方式，設置LB14地下車站，全長約4.3公里。部長，請問您的態度如何？對於新增LB12a和LB13，你是否支持設站？"],["陳部長世凱：交通部審議過了，這是地方政府的規劃，我們都尊重。交通部當然會審議，審議也已經通過，這個部分應該是OK啦！"],["邱委員若華：目前還不知道行政院的態度嗎？如果因為人口數和預期的運量不足，最終決定同時移除這兩站，您認為會帶來什麼樣的影響？"],["陳部長世凱：等它確定之後，我們再來討論後續的影響。"],["邱委員若華：還要等確定，那這邊先和部長討論，您知道在臺北捷運系統……"],["陳部長世凱：我們審過的是有這幾站，目前交通部給出的意見是有這幾站，如果院那邊有另外的意見，我們後續再來討論。"],["邱委員若華：另外請教部長一個問題，你知道在臺北捷運的系統中，路段最長的是哪一段嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我不清楚。"],["邱委員若華：是板南線的龍山寺站到江子翠站，兩站的距離大概是3公里，行車時間大約4分鐘。部長，如果移除LB12a和LB13這兩站，預估的長度是4.3公里，這個長度已經明顯超出臺北捷運站目前最長的站距。在這樣的前提下，如果未來旅客碰到火災，還是地震等其他的緊急情況，是否會造成疏散上面有難度呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛才提到藍線捷運的部分，主要是因為跨河，所以距離才會拉這麼長，一般的捷運站距離不會這麼長。"],["邱委員若華：不應該會這麼長。"],["陳部長世凱：不太會有這麼長的狀況。"],["邱委員若華：您記不記得2014年有發生鄭捷事件？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：當時就是從龍山寺到江子翠站，它就是臺北市最長站距的路段，也正因為這樣子，所以要請部長再考量LB12a、LB13這兩站設置的必要性，因為我們要顧及乘客的安全。"],["陳部長世凱：目前交通部沒有否定的意見，也就是說……"],["邱委員若華：是，不過我們看到行政院的態度是持否定的意見，所以遲遲不肯核定。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們就不曉得，但是我們的部分是沒有問題，我是滿支持的。"],["邱委員若華：部長應該要掌握啊！因為你知道過了多少天了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：但是國發會已經審議過了，所以國發會對於這兩站，他們最後也是接受我們的做法。"],["邱委員若華：上禮拜本席問部長的時候已經201天了，到今天是208天，這個已經卡在行政院卡了208天了，所以希望部長能掌握。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：也要向行政院提出，到底什麼時候可以儘快核定。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我儘量跟行政院溝通。"],["邱委員若華：所以不只是轉達，也希望部長可以做解決問題的人。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：OK，部長先請回座休息。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員若華：請行政院經貿談判辦公室。"],["主席：請顏副總談判代表。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：顏副總好。今年2月川普發布加徵對臺灣32%的對等關稅，4月9號宣布實行，消息一出當下造成全球的股災。這個政策不到12個小時，目前川普宣布除了中國之外，其他地區暫緩90天。由於桃園總共有37個報編工業區年產值是4.7兆，川普的對等關稅對桃園的製造業也造成了嚴重的衝擊，請問次長，您知道桃園的主要製造業有哪些嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們是經貿談判部門，所以對於國內產業的部分……"],["邱委員若華：不好意思，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["邱委員若華：次長，您知道有哪一些嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。桃園大概有資通訊產業、PCB，還有少部分的加工零組件部分。"],["邱委員若華：有加工零組件，還有電子零件、電腦產品以及汽車的零組件。"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["邱委員若華：對於電子零件、電腦產品及汽車零組件，這三大產業占我們桃園全市的工業產值40%，其中汽車還有它的零組件製造業更是重中之重，像福特六和、國瑞與中華三大車廠都在桃園設廠。根據桃園市經發局的資料顯示，桃園市的全市汽車，還有它的零件製造業總共有380家，前鄭文燦市長也稱桃園市為臺版的底特律。請問次長，2024年臺灣的汽車零配件全球出口產值為多少？"],["何次長晉滄：我們的總出口產值，在這個報告裡面有寫，整個車輛產業總產值達到5,023億台幣，整車的部分是2,077億，零組件的部分是2,946億。"],["邱委員若華：我請教您的是零配件部分。"],["何次長晉滄：2,946億。"],["邱委員若華：本席得到的資料，臺灣的汽車零配件出口產值是1,575億，其中銷往美國的是796億，比重占了50%，所以順差是787億，代表我國的汽車零組件對於美國的市場還是高度依賴。本席要請部長，還有顏談判代表，希望可以保護本土的產業，作為臺灣最大的利益，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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這個時間很有限請陳部長跟高鐵公司鄭董事長好 高鐵鄭董董事長好高鐵204這個班次發生了在板橋站過站"},{"start":34.359,"end":59.889,"text":"應該是說不能說沒有停啦應該是停下來沒開門就開走了那這個事情我不知道大家怎麼看待在本席來看我覺得這個是一個當然你們已經做了一些處置包括做了一些處分但本席對這個事情的看法是我們要徹底把這個案例拿出來檢討然後並提出到底它發生了什麼事情那該如何來改進"},{"start":62.664,"end":80.02,"text":"這個部長如果你不是了解那個詳細可以請鄭董事長回答沒有關係我想請教一下那一天停車大概幾秒鐘他停車大概只有20幾秒那通常20幾秒的門為什麼沒有打開"},{"start":82.386,"end":101.578,"text":"基本上他要停下來以後這個駕駛他那時候他還在猶豫這個是不是要停下來還是說是一個通過站因為在之前他一個經驗他大概一兩個月裡面他在同樣的這個地方前後"},{"start":102.358,"end":120.428,"text":"一二三那一跟三啊都是呢通過站結果呢他結果他六次啊這個第六次呢前面五次都是通過的結果那一次呢我的意思是說那他為什麼停下來之後才開始思考這個問題"},{"start":121.701,"end":150.693,"text":"他是這樣就是他所以他犯了一個錯誤就是說他應該有他是有一個疑慮他應該趕快那個請教我們的行動中心結果他沒有這個做他想說留下來以後他要看他自己的平板確定他的這個訊息是不是對的不是 董事長你們的邏輯是到站之後才確定這一站他要停不停他是停下來之後再確定要不要停還是說"},{"start":152.065,"end":176.485,"text":"我今天開 我開始懷疑了我要不要停 我就開始問控制中心說這一站要不要停因為他的弔詭在於 他已經停起來了他停起來 然後24秒我們每天搭高鐵上班的人都知道停下來到開門 大概5秒吧 5秒門就開了因為你還有一個列車長在門口控制那個開門 對不對"},{"start":178.166,"end":202.078,"text":"所以他停二十幾秒之當中他到底發生了什麼事情他停下來然後開始想這站要停嗎就是一般人如果說他說他沒有停他忘了他根本不知道這站要停西湖就直接開過去我還能夠稍微理解就是他可能走神了他可能分心了他可能想到Maybe很快樂的事情就一路開過去了"},{"start":203.373,"end":231.149,"text":"可是他是停下來還20幾秒董事長有沒有查看看他這20幾秒到底發生什麼事情我補充一下包委員其實在他出發之前出站之前在briefing的過程已經有告訴他要停哪些站所以基本上他在那個時刻就應該要知道所以他每一站哪站要停自己要清楚那第二他到了站之後他停下來他要給列車長一個指示列車長才能開門"},{"start":232.19,"end":248.579,"text":"那當時他沒有給列車長指示於是列車長趕快就要打電話給他給駕駛那打給他的過程當中他也應該要問清楚聽電話聽清楚結果他沒聽清楚他以為列車長是要催他說趕快走你不應該停那那個時候其實他還可以看平板確認"},{"start":250.14,"end":275.583,"text":"但實際上他又沒有去看平板確認但即便你不看平板確認你也應該跟OCC聯繫也就是行空中心聯繫確認說我這站到底要停或者是不停當他不確定的時候但他也沒做這個動作於是車子就開出去了所以連串的其實都有機制可以防呆但他該做的很像都沒做部長你這樣回答我能夠理解換言之這24秒其實就是在這個"},{"start":276.744,"end":295.119,"text":"跟列車長處理停不停開不開走不走就是這些問題就是他在猶豫的過程好那這一個事件啊凸顯當你設計了這些機制他還是會停下來20幾秒然後開走有沒有想到接下來要怎麼辦"},{"start":297.156,"end":316.685,"text":"是 我們認為說在這種情況發生的時候應該是一個就是我們的列車長可以馬上按我們的PEI讓車子就停下來這是一個機制另外一個方式就是說這個列車長趕快告訴我們OCC請OCC把他這個車子把它停下來這兩個機制"},{"start":320.046,"end":337.657,"text":"這個就是接下來不會再發生這種事因為你這裡面看起來你設計了一些防呆的機制但看起來這是一連串防呆機制失效之後所產生的這個結果所以那個防呆還不夠防就更呆的情況底下你就防不了了"},{"start":338.337,"end":348.912,"text":"就呆到這個程度就會產生今天這個現象之前的機制是針對駕駛而已那現在就是增加了其他的單位可以把列車停下來的一個權限"},{"start":349.864,"end":378.237,"text":"所以跟這個委員報告就是我們往後這個朝向加強這個列車長駕駛列車長以及行控中心三個的互相聯繫的這個的這種動作我們要加強那這件事情我們真的是感覺很抱歉讓這個不管旅客也不方便讓我們社會大眾甚至我們委員這邊都這麼的關切我其實覺得旅客不方便是這裡面受傷最小"},{"start":379.5,"end":398.672,"text":"就旅客很重要喔,但是如果今天是因為有波比啦,這沒有停往前開沒有發生任何意外嘛,就是只有耽誤了旅客當然這很重要,但是如果跟意外比起來旅客的時間的浪費反而是最輕的啦"},{"start":399.48,"end":412.686,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情不能等閒置之的原因是因為高鐵是幾乎成為現在無論是這個就國人無論商務或者旅行他最重要的交通工具之一"},{"start":413.732,"end":434.306,"text":"那同時每天尤其是大家現在知道高鐵都塞嘛車人很多像假日啊這個立法院都在問買得到票買不到票連立法委員都每天都在關心自己買得到票能不能回去你就知道一般民眾那難度更高了所以你接下來要調整的方式你一定是更密集"},{"start":435.202,"end":454.22,"text":"就你只能更密集,不然難道你要蓋第二條高鐵嘛對不對那你更密集對於這種防呆的精準度就如果簡單講他該停沒有停,然後前面剛好那台車子也還在那這個時候恐怕所釀成的這個問題恐怕會更大所以呢這個"},{"start":456.221,"end":474.466,"text":"我很訝異是因為高鐵公司竟然會發生這種事情這個讓我很訝異那竟然訝異了它到底問題出在哪裡我們原先的房呆設計表示還是不夠房子啦所以應該在這方面還是要再加強"},{"start":476.213,"end":496.967,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我們會挑戰我們這些各種剛才講的SOP會來強化那另外跟委員報告一點這個所謂的會不會追撞這個事情呢在高鐵的這個所謂的Fair to Safe的這個概念是不會的因為它每一個控制我們那個電路板那個軌道電路裡面會"},{"start":498.368,"end":520.922,"text":"要求你前面有這個車子你這邊就不能就停下來不會進去所以這點我補充報告這個我當然知道啦但我的意思就是說我也沒想過會有過站不停或者是停下來20幾秒再開走沒有上下車就跟你現在跟我講說不會啦我們都設計好這個不會追撞不會什麼就是我原先也不會放就是"},{"start":522.055,"end":539.186,"text":"當聽到這個事情的時候我第一個時間我助理告訴我說我還跟人家講說這一定是假消息那有可能高鐵怎麼可能發生這種事情那過不久就發生了所以我的意思就是更謹慎的態度來面對你認為不可能發生的事情謝謝韋爺的指教讓我們可以深切檢討"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（12時7分）謝謝主席。因為時間很有限，請陳部長和高鐵公司鄭董事長。"],["主席：陳部長、高鐵鄭董。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好、董事長好。高鐵204班次在板橋站發生過站的問題，不能說沒有停啦！"],["陳部長世凱：有停，但沒開門。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該是停下來沒開門就開走了。本席不知道大家怎麼看待這件事情，當然你們已經做了一些處置，也做了處分，但本席對這個事情的看法是，我們要澈底把這個案例拿出來檢討，釐清到底發生了什麼事情？該如何改進？部長，如果你不是很了解的話，可以請鄭董事長回答，沒有關係。"],["陳部長世凱：好的。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席想請教一下，那一天大概停車幾秒鐘？"],["鄭董事長光遠：大概只有二十幾秒。"],["蔡委員其昌：門為什麼沒有打開？"],["鄭董事長光遠：基本上他要停下來以後才會開門，但駕駛那時候還在猶豫是不是要停下來，還是要通過站，因為就他之前的經驗，大概是前一、兩個月，之前駕駛的班次在這個地方都是直接通過站，因為前面五次都是通過，只有那一次要停，結果就變成這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長，本席的意思是說，他為什麼停下來之後才開始思考這個問題？"],["鄭董事長光遠：所以他犯了一個錯誤，因為他有疑慮就應該趕快請教行控中心，結果他沒有這麼做，而是想看自己的平板，確定他的訊息是不是對的，但……"],["蔡委員其昌：不是的。董事長，你們的邏輯是到站停下來之後，才確定這一站要不要停？還是今天懷疑要不要停時就要問控制中心？因為這件事的弔詭在於他已經停車而且還經過24秒。我們每天搭高鐵上班的人都知道，車停下來到開門大概5秒嘛！5秒之後門就開了，因為還有一個列車長在門口控制開門。所以他停了二十幾秒，這當中到底發生什麼事情？他停下來之後才開始想這一站要不要停嗎？對一般人來說，如果他忘了停，或者他根本不知道這一站要停，可能就是咻一下直接開過去，這樣本席能夠稍微理解，因為他可能走神、分心了，或者他可能想到很快樂的事情就一路開過去。可是他停下來，而且還停了二十幾秒。董事長有沒有查看他這二十幾秒到底發生什麼事情？"],["陳部長世凱：我補充一下。其實在他出發之前，出站之前的briefing過程就已經告訴他要停哪些站，基本上他在那個時刻就應該知道哪一站要停，這些自己都很清楚。第二，到站停下來之後，他要給列車長一個指示，列車長才能開門，當時他沒有給列車長指示，於是列車長趕快打電話給駕駛，在打電話給他的過程當中，他也應該問清楚，電話內容要聽清楚，結果他沒聽清楚，他以為列車長是要催他趕快走，你不應該停。","那個時候其實他還可以看平板確認，但實際上他又沒有去看平板確認。即便你不看平板確認，也應該和OCC聯繫，也就是和行控中心聯繫，確認這站到底要停或是不停，當他不確定的時候啦！但他也沒做這個動作就把車子開出去了。這一連串的過程當中，其實都有機制可以防呆，但他該做的好像都沒做。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你這樣回答本席能夠理解，換言之，這24秒其實就是他在和列車長處理停不停、開不開、走不走等問題。"],["陳部長世凱：對，就是他在猶豫的過程。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個事件突顯一件事，即便設計了這些機制，但他還是會停下來二十幾秒，然後開走。有沒有想過接下來要怎麼辦？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們認為這種情況發生的時候，列車長可以馬上按PEI讓車子停下來，這是一個機制；另外一個方式就是列車長趕快告訴OCC，請OCC把車子停下來。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以接下來不會再發生這種事？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們有設計一些防呆機制，但看起來這是一連串防呆機制失效之後所產生的結果，表示那個防呆機制還不夠，遇到更呆的情況，你們就防不了，呆到這個程度就會產生今天這個現象。"],["陳部長世凱：之前的機制是針對駕駛而已，現在就是增加其他單位可以把列車停下來的權限。"],["鄭董事長光遠：所以我們往後會朝向加強駕駛、列車長以及行控中心三者互相聯繫的動作，這件事情我們真的覺得很抱歉，造成旅客不方便，也讓社會大眾，甚至是委員都這麼關切。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席覺得旅客不方便是這裡面受傷最小的，旅客很重要，但今天也是因為神明有保佑啦！車沒有依班表停下來，繼續往前開，萬幸沒有發生任何意外，就是耽誤了旅客的時間。旅客當然很重要，但是如果和意外比起來，旅客時間的浪費反而是最輕微的，所以本席覺得這件事情不能等閒視之，因為高鐵幾乎是現在國人商務或者旅行時最重要的交通工具之一。","尤其是大家現在都知道高鐵很塞，人很多，像假日的時候，立法院的人都在問買不買得到票，連立法委員每天都在關心自己能不能買到票回去，你就知道對一般民眾來說，難度就更高了。所以你們接下來調整的方向一定是班次更密集，而且也只能更密集，不然難道要蓋第二條高鐵嗎？如果更密集，那麼這些防呆機制的精準度就更重要了，簡單說就是他該停而沒有停，如果剛好前面的車子還在，這個時候釀成的問題恐怕會更大。","本席很訝異高鐵公司竟然會發生這種事情，問題到底出在哪裡？這也表示原先的防呆設計還是不夠，所以這方面還要再加強。"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員的指教，我們會朝剛才說的各種SOP強化。另外也向委員報告一點，關於會不會造成追撞，就高鐵的where to save概念來說是不會的，因為它每一個控制的動作，我們的軌道電路都會要求，如果前面有車子，這邊就會停下來，車子不會開過去，這點補充報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個本席當然知道啦！本席的意思是說，我們也沒想過會有過站不停，或者停下來二十幾秒再開走，但是沒開門讓旅客上下車這種狀況，就像你現在告訴本席，不會啦！我們都有設計好，不會追撞、不會什麼。當聽到這個事情的時候，第一時間是助理告訴本席，本席還說這一定是假消息，怎麼可能？高鐵怎麼可能發生這種事情？過不久發現這是真的。本席的意思是要以更謹慎的態度，面對你認為不可能發生的事情。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們會深切檢討，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長的質詢。","接下來請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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那麼那個談判辦公室喔如果在這種情況下面 到底你們在計算評估對國內產業或對國內就業人口衝擊的時候你們是用所謂8.3萬來算 還是用30萬來算"},{"start":123.952,"end":152.106,"text":"我們的影響評估基本上都是由我們的產業主管機關來負責盤點那我們只是希望把它轉換成對美說明的一個相關的論述好 謝謝因為我想這個事情其實因為大家民眾的期待跟廠商的這個說法是不太一樣因為民眾當然期待說會因為這一次的事件可能關稅能夠降低降低之後可能車價可以下降但是同時產業也擔心說如果因為整車的這個關稅降低之後"},{"start":152.526,"end":167.285,"text":"對於國內這些製造業 國內車輛製造業的這個相關人口不管是你們今天提到的8.3萬還是車輛公會的30萬大家都覺得會受到衝擊所以今天要問得出政府到底去認定這件事情假設 假設因為今天"},{"start":168.206,"end":194.397,"text":"談判結果還沒出來嘛可是我們到底在談車輛談這個整車進口也好還是談我們車輛製造業也好這個事情去談判的時候政府要不管你後續假設真的有時候要衝擊因為你看到這個人口8.3後30萬人那我們出口美國的這個產值是35.58億美元這是你們的數據那整個產業鏈有5000多億的這個金額那這個產業鏈到底多少人受到衝擊如果政府這邊的數字是不一致的那我不知道"},{"start":195.337,"end":208.113,"text":"對於民心大家會覺得很不安心我想確定到底你們在計算的時候是用多少人來算如果是用主管機關的單位的算法那我想問經濟部到底是多少人你們會有多少人遭衝擊"},{"start":209.248,"end":217.077,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們這個報告裡面也講得很清楚我們是按照行政院主計總出113年的統計所以我們引用的數據8.3萬人他是從政府的官方的數據來這個出現這樣的一個數據"},{"start":225.447,"end":247.119,"text":"好那我知道了這樣我想這後續的車輛公會趕快再找你們了好那回到這個一樣回到關稅的問題啊那這個部分因為我想車輛他是排除在這個對等的32%裡面嘛包含說現在不管是暫緩90天的部分他是本來就是適用所謂的這個25%的部分嘛那我想問一下經濟部也好或是OTM也好你們有評估過說這個"},{"start":249.517,"end":276.995,"text":"目前是因為台灣的這個稅率是17.5的部分那如果按照談判的過程裡面因為總統說要從這個比照美加盟協定來談美加盟協定當然在美國或在加拿大墨西哥出產的這個車輛零組件它是排除適用嘛不用說適用25%當然相對的他們在進口美國車的稅率也是有相對的付出那我們要問的是說今天是17.5那你們有沒有算過說如果從17.5假設往下談判"},{"start":279.557,"end":307.341,"text":"多少的稅率會對我國的產業或對多少居委人口產生衝擊這個東西有沒有計算過其實我們都有算過啦只是說這個內容其實我們也不宜在這邊做討論那我想我們這個談判辦公室那邊我們也給足了一些資訊那讓這個談判代表們跟美國在談判的時候他可以就對我們產業的衝擊面的部分他會做整體的考量"},{"start":307.921,"end":328.066,"text":"好市長那最後問一個問題就是說其實到目前來講因為如果如你們的報告所說如果有衝擊到8.3萬的就業人口那乘量公會當然是說30萬了在這樣的情形下面我們目前來講這個車關稅汽車關稅整車進口的降價的空間是存在的嗎還是不太可能坦白說"},{"start":329.983,"end":339.355,"text":"呃這個我想還是要看談判的結果再來做做這個說明好沒關係市長謝謝市長跟我們副代表請回喔那我們現在請交通部陳部長部長"},{"start":348.953,"end":364.163,"text":"很好來部長好部長我們針對內政這個就沒有跟你談關稅了這個計程車的部分我想部長應該很清楚知道到底要怎麼樣能夠成為計程車司機過去當然計程車是一個比較這個特取行業有所謂的權利金跟這個靠航的問題"},{"start":365.003,"end":380.296,"text":"那自從這個多元計程車加入之後我想我們有時候很多陳情就是說其實各車行的喊價因為這個他們要投入這個行業裡面他需要有這個牌嘛他們需要有這個營業的執照那也需要靠行所以現在的牌價"},{"start":382.137,"end":396.618,"text":"車牌使用金從8到12萬開始喊那這個問題我想從去年就在發酵我想報紙上也有一些報導那過去有講說要請可能這個各六都的交通局也好或是公路局來了解跟協調我想問一下因為"},{"start":397.259,"end":415.513,"text":"其實四大車行裡面包括容車等等容車只要600塊那其他的民間的廠商民間的民營的這個車行現狀來講很多靠這個維生的這個小黃司機或是多元汽車司機他們會去反映說這個排價好像沒有一個公平的標準是任由車行去喊價的"},{"start":416.354,"end":444.042,"text":"那我想問一下到底目前為止過去邀請六都交通局跟公路局去深入了解的狀況目前狀況是怎麼樣有沒有可能交通部去訂定一個全國一致的範圍的費用應該跟各縣市都有保持聯繫那目前針對這個有漲價的這個靠航費的狀況目前只有兩個縣市現在有看到的是基隆市跟新竹縣那從每個月1200條漲到1500那其他的14個縣市目前的靠航費的部分是沒有做調漲"},{"start":445.522,"end":458.885,"text":"那所以這個部分我們也有收集說駕駛人有沒有這樣子的反應到目前為止很像也沒有收到巧木林利收費的民意收費的這個行為那個車牌使用金 靠網費另外一回事有兩個錢的靠網費當然是你們有一個這樣的價格現在問題是車牌使用金就是營業車牌這件事情你們怎麼去管這件事情"},{"start":469.412,"end":483.392,"text":"這個部分跟我們報告一下現在計程車這個號牌的部分大概分三類那一類是優良駕駛人個人車牌的部分那另外一個部分包括這個龍車那個是屬於這個這個合作社的部分那另外一個部分的話大概就是一般計程車行"},{"start":484.113,"end":503.116,"text":"那就是本身擁有這個什麼車耳的部分那車耳的這個部分的話確實可能有一些就是說地方上面不同這個數量上面的一個這個有這樣子的情況那這個部分的話在這個應該是在100這個就是那時候多元計程車要開放的時候那有一個跨地"},{"start":503.576,"end":517.814,"text":"就是說譬如說我舉個例子說台中地區如果本身的相關車額的部分如果說不夠的話那基本上是可以跨區域到新北到台北這邊來這個就是說公會同意的話就可以調這個相關的一個這個車額"},{"start":519.997,"end":537.498,"text":"那至於說剛剛你所提到的部分就是說那這些相關車額的一個這個排費的這個部分的話確實是有一些這個差異那這個部分的話我們再請這個六都這個我想主要問題還是在六都這邊我們再請這個六都"},{"start":538.659,"end":559.623,"text":"對於這個雙方的一個部分再來了解比較細部的情況那如果說有需要這個大家來做一個這個協調這個什麼協商的部分的話這個部分我們也會跟六都來這個就是說合作讓這個計程車入行的一個這個相關負擔能夠這個就是說盡量的一個降低以上"},{"start":560.063,"end":582.333,"text":"我要釐清就其實這兩部分一個是靠行費靠行費當然你們現在有在管制這個OK這沒問題現在問題是說取得營業小車車牌這部分掛牌費這掛牌費這個權利是在交通部手上還是在各車廂手上這部分我覺得是你們是不是要把它收回來還是要怎麼樣去跟業者之間去協調不要說好像就放出去那這個價格大家去喊"},{"start":582.873,"end":595.511,"text":"那這我想對於很多想需要靠這件事情為生的他光是這件事情他就很麻煩還有一個問題現實對不起主席我再最後一分鐘講一下現狀是怎麼樣就是他今年出現在A車行"},{"start":596.614,"end":619.847,"text":"談好的權利金他掛牌OK了但是結果A車行後來經營不善或怎麼樣他賣給B車行B車行回去跟這個司機再收一次權利金他會說那前面是你跟A談的跟我B沒關係所以這個亂象這個管理的部分我想對於交通部來講這個是影響到很多基層民眾的生計我們希望交通部能夠確實的管理這個部分這邊我再補充一點"},{"start":620.487,"end":645.503,"text":"如果是這樣子的情況的話因為自備車輛成語經營基本上跟車廠都要簽契約然後這個契約基本上是經過當地公共會雙方這個會商同意之後那如果有這樣子的情況的話我們請這個交通局特別來做這個了解因為這個東西基本上已經違反這樣子的一個這個規定那一規定都可以來做查處好謝謝喔那我們請就是你們把了解狀況了解完之後再跟我們委員會來說明好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時35分）謝謝主席，先請經濟部政次何晉滄次長與經貿談判辦公室的談判代表顏副代表。"],["主席：次長及顏副代表。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好。次長，現在進入談判階段，我們當然希望很多數據能夠一致，無論是對於產業也好、對於對外談判的數字也好，這樣會比較明確。今天我想請教你一件事情，在經濟部提供的報告第2頁提到，我國車輛產業就業人數約有8.3萬人，但是如果參照媒體的報導，4月9日車輛公會提到整個車輛上下游產業受影響的有30萬就業人口、2,500家廠商。在同份報告的第2頁也提到，車輛公會呼籲政府要正視汽車產業鏈上下游30萬的就業人口。我想先就這個數字與次長討論一下，到底我國的車輛產業有多少人會受到影響？到底是8.3萬人或是30萬人？兩者之間的落差還滿大的，是否能夠說明一下？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，如果單就車輛產業是8.3萬，由於整個車輛產業鏈非常長，所以公會才有30萬就業人口的統計數據出現。關於這方面的統計數據，主計總處那邊基本上會就行業的內容提出一個官方的數字。"],["黃委員健豪：我想請問談判辦公室，在這種情況下，你們評估對國內產業或對國內就業人口產生衝擊是以8.3萬計算或是以30萬計算？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：基本上，我們的影響評估都是由產業主管機關負責盤點，而我們只是希望將它轉換成對美說明的一個相關論述。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。因為民眾的期待與廠商的說法不太一樣，民眾當然期待因為這次的事件可能使關稅降低，這樣車價就會下降，但是同時產業也擔心在整車的關稅降低之後，對於國內的車輛製造業相關人口，無論是你們今天提到的8.3萬或是車輛公會說的30萬，大家絕對都會受到衝擊。因此，今天我要問，政府認定這件事情，因為今天談判結果還沒出來，但是我們談車輛、談整車進口也好、或是談車輛製造業也好，當這件事情進行談判之後，假設後續真的受到衝擊，無論是8.3萬人或30萬人，我們出口美國的產值是35.58億美元，這是你們的數據，整個產業鏈有五千多億的金額，到底這個產業鏈有多少人會受到衝擊？如果政府這邊的數據不一致，我覺得民心會很不安，所以我想確定到底你們是用多少人來計算？如果談判辦公室是用主管機關的算法，那麼我要問經濟部到底有多少人會受到衝擊？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，在我們的報告中講得很清楚，我們是按照行政院主計總處113年的統計，所以我們引用的8.3萬人是政府的官方數據。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我知道了，但我想後續車輛公會很快會去找你們。","一樣回到關稅的問題，因為車輛是排除在對等的32%之外，包括現在暫緩90天的部分也是一樣，它本來就是適用所謂25%的部分。我想請問經濟部或OTN是否評估過，目前臺灣的稅率是17.5%，如果在談判的過程中，因為總統說要比照美加墨協定來談，在加拿大、墨西哥生產的車輛零組件是排除適用，不適用25%，當然相對的，他們進口美國車的稅率也有相對的付出。我們要問的是，今天是17.5%，你們有沒有算過？假設從17.5%往下談判，多少的稅率會對我國的產業或對多少的就業人口產生衝擊，這個有沒有計算過？"],["何次長晉滄：我們其實都有算過，只是內容也不宜在這邊討論。我想我們也給足了談判辦公室相關的資訊，讓談判代表們和美國談判的時候，可以對我們產業受到衝擊的部分做整體考量。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，最後問一個問題，其實到目前為止，如果如你們的報告所說衝擊到8.3萬名就業人口，因為車輛公會是說30萬人啦！在這樣的情形下，目前汽車關稅的部分，整車進口的降價空間存在嗎？還是不太可能？"],["何次長晉滄：這還是要看談判結果才能說明。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，次長，謝謝。次長和副代表請回，現在請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，我們現在是針對內政的部分，不和你談關稅了。針對計程車的部分，部長應該很清楚怎麼樣才能夠成為計程車司機。過去計程車是比較屬於特許行業，有所謂的權利金和靠行問題，自從多元計程車加入之後，我們也收到很多陳情，就是各車行競相喊價，因為他們要投入這個行業需要有營業執照，也需要靠行，現在車牌使用金是從8萬元到12萬元開始喊價。","這個問題去年就開始發酵，報紙也有一些報導，過去有說要請六都的交通局或是公路局去了解、協調。本席想問一下，其實在四大車行裡面，包含榮車等等，榮車只要600元，但其他的民間廠商、民營車行，以現狀來說，很多靠這個行業維生的小黃司機或是多元計程車司機，他們反映牌價好像沒有一個公定標準，任由車行喊價。","本席想問一下，因為之前有說要請六都交通局和公路局去深入了解，目前狀況怎麼樣？有沒有可能由交通部訂定全國一致的範圍和費用？"],["陳部長世凱：我們和各縣市都有保持聯繫，目前靠行費有漲價狀況的只有兩個縣市，就是基隆市和新竹縣，每個月從1,200元調漲到1,500元，其他14個縣市目前靠行費並沒有調漲。我們也有蒐集駕駛人是否有這樣的反映，到目前為止，好像並沒有收到巧立名目收費的案子。"],["黃委員健豪：本席是指車牌使用金，靠行費是另外一回事，有兩筆。"],["陳部長世凱：車牌權利金的部分，要不要請……"],["黃委員健豪：靠行費的部分，你們有訂定一個價格。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員健豪：現在的問題是車牌使用金，你們怎麼去管營業車牌這件事情？"],["林司長福山：現在計程車號牌大概分三類，一類是優良駕駛人的個人車牌；另外例如榮車這一類，那是屬於合作社的部分；還有一類是一般計程車行，就是本身擁有車額，車額確實可能因為地方不同，而有不同數量的情況。","這個部分在多元計程車開放的時候，有一個跨地區的規定，我舉個例子，如果臺中地區本身的相關車額不夠的話，基本上可以跨區域到新北、臺北，公會同意就可以調相關的車額。至於剛剛委員提到的，相關車額的牌費確實是有一些差異，因為主要問題還是在六都，我們再請六都進一步了解細部情況，如果有需要召集大家進行協商的話，我們也會和六都合作，讓計程車入行的相關負擔能夠儘量降低，以上。"],["黃委員健豪：本席要釐清的是這兩個部分，一個是靠行費，當然你們現在有在管制，這部分沒有問題。現在的問題是取得營業小客車車牌這部分。"],["陳部長世凱：掛牌費。"],["黃委員健豪：掛牌費的管理權力是在交通部手上？還是在各車行手上？你們是不是要把它收回來？還是要怎麼和業者協調？不要只是把這個權利放出去，任由大家喊價格。本席認為對很多需要靠計程車維生的人來說，光是這件事情就很麻煩。還有一個問題，對不起，主席，最後1分鐘，本席再說一下。","現狀是怎麼樣？就是他今年初先和A車行談好權利金，掛牌的問題處理好了，結果A車行後來經營不善或怎麼樣，所以賣給B車行，B車行會向這個司機再收一次權利金，因為你之前是和A談的和我們沒關係。所以針對這個亂象，因為這關係到管理，也影響到很多基層民眾的生計，我們希望交通部能夠確實管理這個部分。"],["林司長福山：委員，我再補充一點。如果是這樣的情況，因為自備車輛參與經營，基本上和車行都要簽契約，這個契約是經過當地公會雙方會商同意，如果有這樣的情況，我們請六都交通局特別去了解，因為這樣已經違反規定，依規定可以進行查處。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。你們了解完狀況之後，再向委員會說明，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢。","特別向各位委員說明，因為今天登記質詢的委員非常多，所以拜託各位委員控制時間，依照規定時間進行發言。","接下來陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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請主席邀請陳部長好 陳部長謝謝委員好部長早那今天委員會的這個主題是在就是關心美國客徵這個對等關稅對我們就是國內的交通公司部門的衝擊那剛剛很多委員都關心了我想"},{"start":33.816,"end":50.67,"text":"這個川普總統美國總統川普的這個關稅風暴確實造成全球震盪那對我們台灣的這個整個很多的面向產業啦交通運輸也有很大的一個衝擊那我想就是交通運輸在我們交通部應該就是運輸的方面那應該就是海運空運的衝擊比較大"},{"start":56.034,"end":77.268,"text":"海運的部分剛剛我們何委員也詢問很多那我想在這個部分大家比較關心的可能就是這個海運就是貨櫃的一個問題那這部分大家也擔心說是不是會重演這個COVID-19時期的這個塞港的這樣子或者是搶不到櫃的狀況那這部分交通部應該都沒問題"},{"start":79.529,"end":104.039,"text":"報告委員目前貴位的部分倉位的部分都還有餘裕另外其實更關鍵的剛剛委員有提到塞港的問題我們也會擔心說台灣會不會發生這樣的狀況港澳公司我所知道他們已經都盤點一些空地如果到時候貨櫃有大量需要囤的話我們也會挪出地方第二個就是說針對因為現在很多的廠商希望快速能夠出口"},{"start":104.759,"end":131.81,"text":"所以整個效率上面可能港澳公司這邊也應該都有做準備讓效率提高讓他貨一進來馬上可以上得了船趕快出去那這個部分是不是有請林董事長我想就不用說明了因為很多委員都詢問過了我想大家很關心那相信就是我們也是希望就是說交通部這邊對於一些過去的一些經驗然後我們可以預先做一些規劃跟就是做一些事先的一個預防這樣子"},{"start":132.43,"end":153.059,"text":"我們盡量把我們那個行政程序縮短好謝謝那本席接下來要關心的就是這個交通安全的問題還是回歸到這個交通安全的一個議題就是因為交通安全真的很重要那我們看到就是有關這個數字的統計有關就是到案數字的統計"},{"start":154.299,"end":182.007,"text":"當然就是說以113年我們事故的總件數還有事故死傷的人數都有下降了啦都有下降了那當然就是說這個下降就是也要感謝我們不管是中央或地方或者是各種手段的一個努力啦那所以我們知道就是說交通安全我們要就是提高這個交通安全最主要就是四大面向嘛這個部長你知道啦工程監理教育跟執法"},{"start":182.427,"end":204.474,"text":"那我請教一下部長這四大面向你覺得哪一項比較重要報告委員其實都很重要都很重要四個面向都很重要所以四個面向應該要均衡要平均不能特別偏重哪一個面向那其實在基層民眾的感受是覺得這個執法"},{"start":206.195,"end":235.361,"text":"好像是比較重就是比較偏重這個執法的面向因為我們現在廣設這個科技執法所以造成很多民眾他們現在就是抱怨年年然後他們就是一直在抱怨說這個好像把民眾當提款機當然我們的目的是希望降低交通事故提高這個這個道安的一個安全可是在這個執法就是事故有減的時候"},{"start":236.401,"end":263.292,"text":"民怨也上升了那要如何讓事故減民怨又不上升那個部長報告委員這個像您所列出來這個科技執法這個是警政署他們去設置的那警政署其實他們確實是有這個預算在設置這個那他們給我們的數據其實我們看得出來針對這個執法面去加強確實會讓事故率有下降目前看起來的數據是這個樣子"},{"start":264.773,"end":277.576,"text":"但是執法的面向其實大部分是不在交通部但我們也會跟執行的比如說地方政府比如說警政單位我們會跟他們溝通一個平衡性這個部分平衡性我們再來跟他們溝通"},{"start":278.385,"end":294.595,"text":"是好我想就是說當然有一些我們交通安全就是涉及到很多的單位所以也希望你們就是要橫向的一個聯繫當然就是說執法部分是警政署那我們希望交通部這邊應該也要跟他們一起配合"},{"start":295.475,"end":314.894,"text":"那另外就是說因為四個面向都是一樣的重要那所以在工程設計的部分也非常的一個重要還有監理等等那就就這個交通這個工程的部分就是道路的交通的標線標誌的設置這個是非常的一個重要的"},{"start":315.054,"end":337.701,"text":"所以我們對這個交通的標線標誌的一個劃設或者是改善都是希望能夠提高這個交通安全可是目前就是說我們在地方很多民眾在陳情反應就是說目前像我的選區內田尾永進這邊的台一線一直在進行這個就是標線的一個"},{"start":339.321,"end":356.551,"text":"變動我不曉得是改善改善是要更好可是我們發現不曉得有沒有更好因為也是民怨就是說以目前看到這個路口啊你看到這個左邊這個邊線跟安全島是不是有個比較寬的一個距離是"},{"start":357.552,"end":384.421,"text":"然後右邊的話右邊這是由北往南的一個車道就沒有就是那個黃色的邊線是很緊接著緊鄰著那個安全島的那以左邊這一個車道的話是田尾往元寧的方向是來往北那他們這邊現在是在等這個紅綠燈那如果說像這一部第一部車子那個如果說他往"},{"start":385.481,"end":410.255,"text":"中間偏一點他的車子的輪子如果壓到黃線的話這樣有沒有違規會不會被開罰這個部分我以為您剛剛說如果是壓到邊線的話對就是說現在以第一部車子他現在是停這樣子是在線內那他如果是往這個安全島的方向靠的話他的車輪一定是壓到那個黃線這樣有沒有違規有沒有會不會被罰款"},{"start":414.461,"end":431.51,"text":"這個應該沒有違規吧這個應該沒有違規吧那個誰要回答?跟委員報告一下因為這個標籤的部分有分為禁制跟這個指示的部分這個標籤看起來應該是屬於這個指示的標誌"},{"start":439.494,"end":451.612,"text":"那這個原則上就是說處罰條例單條並沒有這樣子的規定那大概通用的部分大概只有一條這個位移標誌標線這個的部分但是看起來這個應該沒有相關這個有這個滑緩的一個問題"},{"start":455.217,"end":474.494,"text":"可是目前我們就看到有民眾在地方的這個社群反應說他在這個這樣子的一個路口因為他的車子的輪子有去就是越過線結果他收到罰單了那這個是一個問題那主席不好意思因為我讓我把這個議題講完"},{"start":476.895,"end":492.202,"text":"這邊就是說目前這個入口還有一個問題就是說在我們公路總局做這樣子的變動之後本來這一個入口目前左邊這個車道是南往北的方向本來它左轉是有左轉燈的號誌的"},{"start":493.723,"end":514.688,"text":"可是目前被你們改成剩下三個號誌所以他要左轉的時候左轉的時候就非常的危險因為沒有左轉的號誌他有的車輛不熟悉他可能就是在綠燈的時候他就是要趁沒有車的時候左轉就是讓你看一個影片大概是這種狀況放一下"},{"start":518.03,"end":531.86,"text":"這個是南往北那這部車它現在要左轉可是它的這個方向是沒有左轉號誌的所以它是必須趁著就是南下的車道沒有車的時候它才左轉"},{"start":532.881,"end":552.061,"text":"可是這樣子的話他的視線如果被對向車道阻擋的話這樣子真的是非常的危險我們一直在反映報告委員這個路口我們特別再去看一下我請公路局再去看一下看了好幾次了看要怎麼改善市長你再幫我特別去關注一下"},{"start":552.882,"end":568.124,"text":"現在看到這個號誌燈四個號誌燈是北往南的一個方向還是維持四個燈還是一樣有左轉燈可是南往北就被取消掉了剩下三個燈那目前就是"},{"start":569.405,"end":590.033,"text":"經過我們反應之後公務局的做法是說在紅燈之後紅燈之後的綠燈的話對向車子他會在晚15秒讓這個南往北的車子可以有15秒可以左轉可是很多外地車或者是過路車他根本不知道有這個這樣子的一個就是"},{"start":590.513,"end":607.272,"text":"晚開這樣子的一個設計所以就會造成像剛剛那部車這樣他就是趁著綠燈的時候對象沒有車他趕快搶快可是這樣子是非常危險的所以我是覺得說我不曉得你們台一線這樣子的一個變動到底是依據什麼"},{"start":608.753,"end":631.03,"text":"規定或者以什麼基準來做這樣子的一個變動啦只是我覺得說這樣子的一個改變讓我們在地人在這邊出入的民眾都覺得顯像還生所以我是覺得說這個部分就是屬於工程面所以包括剛剛的那個寬度的問題如果說它壓線了越線了就是會被開單這個就是我們"},{"start":632.071,"end":657.326,"text":"我們的問題嘛引誘民眾違規了然後另外這個部分的改善是不是有更安全我覺得這個你們都要再去做進一步的一個了解啦那因為當初我們去反映的時候公務局給我們的回覆是說因為會再做一個什麼偏心式的一個左轉的一個改善可是我看出也沒有看到有這樣子的一個改善那我們趕快來改善好謝謝請局長追蹤謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時18分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。今天委員會的主題與美國課徵對等關稅對國內交通公私部門的衝擊有關，剛剛很多委員也都提出關心。美國總統川普的關稅風暴確實造成全球震盪，對臺灣很多面向、產業及交通運輸也有很大衝擊。以交通運輸來說，就是交通部執掌的運輸，尤以海運、空運衝擊比較大。"],["陳部長世凱：以海空運為主。"],["陳委員素月：海運部分剛剛何委員詢問了很多，我想這部分大家比較關心的就是海運貨櫃問題，因為大家擔心是不是會重演COVID-19時期塞港，甚或搶不到櫃的狀況。這部分交通部應該都沒問題吧？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前櫃位的部分、艙位的部分都還有餘裕。"],["陳委員素月：是。"],["陳部長世凱：另外，其實更關鍵的是剛剛委員提到的塞港問題，我們也擔心臺灣會不會發生這樣的狀況，據我所知，港務公司已經盤點了一些空地，如果到時候需要囤放大量貨櫃的話，我們也會挪出地方。第二個，現在很多廠商希望能夠快速出口，針對整個效率的部分，港務公司應該也都有準備，讓效率提高、讓貨一進來就能上得了船、就能趕快出去，這個部分是不是請李董事長……"],["陳委員素月：我想就不用說明了，因為許多委員都已經詢問過，大家也都很關心，希望交通部能本於過去的一些經驗，可以預先做好規劃及事先的預防。"],["李董事長賢義：我們儘量將行政程序縮短。"],["陳委員素月：對，謝謝。","本席接下來要關心的是交通安全的問題，我們還是回歸到交通安全的議題，因為交通安全真的很重要。關於道安數字的統計，113年的事故總件數及事故死傷人數都有下降了，當然也要感謝中央及地方提出各種手段的努力。"],["陳部長世凱：大家一起努力。"],["陳委員素月：我們要提高交通安全最主要有四大面向，部長，你知道啦！"],["陳部長世凱：工程、監理、教育與執法。"],["陳委員素月：對，請教部長，你認為四大面向中哪一項比較重要？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實都很重要。"],["陳委員素月：都很重要、四個面向都很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：因此，四個面向應該要均衡、要平均，不能特別偏重哪一個面向。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：但是基層民眾的感受認為執法好像是比較重耶！也就是比較偏重於執法的面向，因為現在我們廣設科技執法，造成很多民眾抱怨連連，好像是把民眾當成提款機。當然我們的目的是希望降低交通事故，提高道安的安全，但是在事故減少的同時，民怨也上升了，部長，該如何讓事故減少而民怨又不上升？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，像你所列出的科技執法是由警政署設置，其實警政署確實是有預算設置這個，從他們提供給我們的數據可以看得出來，針對執法面去加強確實會讓事故率下降，目前看起來的數據是這個樣子。其實執法的面向大部分不在交通部，但我們也會與執行的地方政府或警政單位溝通一個平衡性，關於這個部分的平衡性，我們會再與他們溝通。"],["陳委員素月：交通安全涉及到許多單位，希望你們也能夠做好橫向的聯繫，當然執法的部分是警政署負責，但我們希望交通部這邊應該也要與他們一起配合。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員素月：因為四個面向都一樣重要，所以工程設計的部分也非常重要，當然還包括監理等等。針對交通工程的部分，道路交通標線、標誌的設置是非常重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員素月：因此，我們對於交通標線、標誌的畫設或改善都是希望能夠提高交通安全，但是目前地方有許多民眾陳情反映，像在我的選區內，田尾、永靖這邊的臺1線一直在進行標線的變動，改善是為了要更好，但是我們不知道是否有更好，因為有許多的民怨。以目前看到投影片的這個路口，左邊的邊線與安全島是不是有一個比較寬的距離？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：右邊是由北往南的車道，黃色的邊線是緊鄰著安全島。左邊的車道是由田尾往員林的方向，也就是由南往北。他們現在是在等紅綠燈，如果第一部車子往中間偏一點，車輪壓到黃線的話，這樣有沒有違規？會不會被開罰？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，你剛剛是說如果壓到邊線的話？"],["陳委員素月：對，以第一部車子而言，現在它停在線內，如果它往安全島方向靠的話，車輪一定會壓到黃線，這樣有沒有違規？會不會被罰款？"],["陳部長世凱：這個應該沒有違規吧！"],["陳委員素月：誰要回答？"],["林司長福山：報告委員，因為標線分為禁制等14個部分，這個標線看起來應該是屬於指示的標誌，原則上，處罰條例單條並沒有這樣的規定，通用的部分大概只有一條，未依標誌標線的部分，但是這個看起來應該沒有相關罰鍰的問題。"],["陳委員素月：但我們就看到有民眾在地方的社群反映，因為他的車輪在這樣的路口越過線，結果就收到了罰單，這是一個問題。主席，不好意思，讓我把這個議題講完。目前這個路口還有一個問題，在公路總局做這樣的變動之後，左邊這個車道是由南往北的方向，原本左轉是有左轉燈的號誌，但是目前被你們改成剩下3個號誌，因此，車輛要左轉的時候就非常的危險，因為沒有左轉的號誌，有些車輛在不熟悉的狀況下，可能就在綠燈時趁沒有車再左轉。現在讓你們看一個影片，大概就是這種狀況。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員素月：這個是由南往北的方向，現在這輛車子想要左轉，但是它的方向並沒有左轉號誌，所以它必須趁著南下車道沒有車的時候再左轉，一旦它的視線被對向車道阻擋的話，這樣真的是非常危險，所以我們也一再的反映。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們會特別再去看一下這個路口。"],["陳委員素月：看好幾次了。"],["陳部長世凱：我會請公路局再去看要如何改善。局長，請幫我特別去關注一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳委員素月：現在看到的4個號誌燈是北往南的方向，仍然維持4個燈、仍然一樣有左轉燈，但是南往北的方向就只剩下3個燈。目前經過我們反映之後，公路局的做法是在紅燈之後的綠燈，對向車子會晚15秒，也就是南往北的車有15秒可以左轉，但是很多外地車或過路車根本不知道有晚15秒的設計，於是就會像剛剛那部車一樣，趁著綠燈時對向沒有車去搶快，這樣是非常危險的。我不知道你們對臺1線到底是依據什麼規定或基準而做這樣的變動，但是我認為這樣的改變讓在地人、在這邊出入的民眾都覺得險象環生，這個部分就是屬於工程面的問題。包括剛剛所提的寬度問題，如果壓線、越線就會被開單，這個就是我們的疑問，是不是引誘民眾違規了？另外，上述問題的改善是不是有更安全？我認為你們都要再做進一步的了解。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員素月：當初我們反映之後，公路局的回復是說會再做一個偏心式左轉的改善，但是我也沒看到有這樣的改善啊！"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會改善。請局長追蹤，謝謝。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","現在我們處理臨時提案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","案由：由於美國政府於日前（4/10）宣布對等關稅政策暫緩實施90日，受影響企業紛紛搶出貨以減少該關稅衝擊，已有出口商對於海運能量，例如港口的貨櫃、船隻是否足夠，及貨物能否趕快上船等表示擔憂，為降低產業衝擊，建請交通部及航港局籌組國際海運運輸平穩小組會議，瞭解進出口商需求，協調航商穩定進出口順暢。","提案人：蔡其昌　　李昆澤　　陳素月","二、","案由：鑑於長榮海運毒品走私案，經查核有港務公司通行證管制鬆散與航港局資訊不對稱，後續港口管制區內通行與否以通行證為主要依據，且進出入商港管制區未實施人員及行李安全檢查之情況，造成長年以來走私破口，然依據商港法第五條規定：「商港區域內治安秩序維護及協助處理違反港務法令事項，由港務警察機關執行之」，依據國安法第五條、第十九條、第二十條規定，港警應有權對出入境人員比照民航安檢實施安全檢查，然實務上則由海巡署執行相關安全檢查作業，除旅客利用金屬探安檢門、行李安檢X光機外，然船員及港務相關人員僅以目測檢查，使船員隨身攜帶毒品等走私及危險物品無法可阻，港務公司無權阻攔，港警亦無所適從，爰請海巡署、警政署、各港港警總隊，一個月內提出比照民航局安檢規格之有效安全檢查措施SOP，港務公司則提出改善通行證申請暨管理辦法，維護我國對外貿易窗口，維持社會秩序有效防治毒品走私，是否有當？敬請公決。","說明：","一、商港法第5條：「商港區域內治安秩序維護及協助處理違反港務法令事項，由港務警察機關執行之」。","二、商港法第35條：「進入商港管制區內人員及車輛，均應申請商港經營事業機構、航港局或指定機關核發通行證，並接受港務警察之檢查」。","三、國家安全法第5條：「警察或海岸巡防機關於必要時，對下列入員、物品及運輸工具，得依其職權實施檢查：一、入出境之旅客及其所攜帶之物件。二、入出境之船舶、航空器或其他運輸工具。三、航行境內之船筏、航空器及其客貨。四、前二款運輸工具之船員、機員、漁民或其他從業人員及其所攜帶之物件。對前項之檢查，執行機關於必要時，得報請行政院指定國防部命令所屬單位協助執行之」。","四、國家安全法第20條：「本法第五條所定入出境船舶、其他運輸工具及其載運人員、物品之檢查，依下列規定實施：一、船舶及其他運輸工具：核對證照與艙單，並得作清艙檢查。二、旅客、船員，漁民及其行李、物件：準用前條第一項第二款至第五款之規定檢查。三、進口之貨櫃：得於目的地實施落地檢查」。","五、國家安全法：「第19條本法第五條所定入出境航空器及其載運人員、物品之檢查，依下列規定實施：一、航空器：得作清艙檢查。出境之航空器於旅客進入後，須經核對艙單、清點人數相符，並經簽署後，始准起飛。二、進出航空站管制區之人員、車輛及其所攜帶、載運之物品，應經檢查，憑相關證件進出。三、旅客、機員：實施儀器檢查或搜索其身體。搜索婦女之身體，應命婦女行之，但不能由婦女行之者，不在此限。四、旅客、機員手提行李：應由其自行開啟接受檢查。五、旅客托運之行李：經檢查送入機艙後，如該旅客不進入航空器時，其托運行李應予取下，始准起飛。但經航空公司具結保證安全者，不在此限」。","提案人：黃健豪　　魯明哲　　廖先翔　　邱若華　　陳雪生　　林國成","三、","案由：因應美國於4/10宣布暫緩課徵全球對等關稅，臺灣產業全力把握90天黃金關鍵期，加快貨物之上船出口，然基於海運運輸歷日曠久，廠商所能把握之緩衝期更形短少，為協助國內供應鏈應對美國關稅之衝擊，政府自當窮盡一切可能措施，並維持我國出口及貿易之穩定。又因近期中美貿易戰已有升級態勢，衝擊全球海運運輸，導致中美航線無貨可運、東南亞航線爆艙之景況，為維持國際海運運輸平穩、有序進行，特請交通部航港局比照疫情特殊時期，儘速召開「國際海運運輸平穩工作小組」會議，掌握出口需求及艙位供給情形，並協調國籍航商視需要增加航班、艙位。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月","四、","案由：臺鐵豐原站為中部地區鐵道運輸重要據點，臺鐵豐原站每年上、下車達約600萬人次，更為臺中后里、東勢、潭子及神岡等地轉運中心。經查，目前豐原往、返板橋及臺北每週僅有18列次、半直達車僅有14列次，非周末之平日往、返板橋及臺北之直達及半直達車更僅各有2班。有鑑於若增加豐原─臺北之直達班次，除可縮短民眾通行時間，也可增加民眾利用豐原站搭車北上之意願，故建請臺鐵公司調整並增加往返豐原─臺北之直達班次並優化豐原站及周遭后里、栗林及潭子等車站之交通銜接，以提供旅客多元、便利之交通選擇。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月","五、","案由：「舊山線鐵道自行車」將已不再使用之鐵道轉換為文化觀光資源，成為中部地區熱門旅遊景點。經查，舊山線鐵道雖自苗栗三義開始、經勝興至臺中舊泰安，但目前舊山線鐵道自行車僅於苗栗縣境內營運，而導致臺中舊山線鐵道仍然閒置。為促進鐵道文化之動態保存，交通部觀光署於2024年補助臺中市政府辦理泰安鐵道文化園區「景點優化體驗加值計畫」，臺鐵公司亦於2025年1月13日函報交通部「舊山線基礎設施改善計畫─優先推動階段」修正報告書，研擬將鐵道自行車延伸至臺中舊泰安站，初估計劃經費達9.14億元，並刻正依交通部函復意見研擬修正計畫內容。","有鑑於臺中舊山線為我國重要鐵道文化及觀光資產，爰請臺鐵公司加速推動相關作業，亦請交通部觀光署、臺鐵公司與地方政府通力合作，串聯周遭景點、整合山線觀光廊道，提升整體觀光發展及品質。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月"],["主席：因為時間的關係，提案原旨都已經在書面，所以就不再做提案說明。","第一案，請問行政單位有無意見？"],["葉局長協隆：報告召委，行政單位遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，遵照辦理，我們就照案通過。","第二案，行政單位？"],["葉局長協隆：報告召委，這個部分已經與黃委員辦公室報告說明溝通，文字酌作修正，是否允許我報告酌作修正後的文字？"],["主席：好。"],["葉局長協隆：麻煩各位看一下，從倒數第五行的「爰請海巡署」這邊開始，文字修正為「爰請交通部會同海巡署、移民署、財政部、關務署，二個月內提出比照民航局安檢規格之有效安全檢查措施SOP，港務公司、航港局則提出改善通行證申請及使用須知，警政署及港警總隊提出相關強化指引，維護我國對外貿易窗口，維持社會秩序有效防制毒品走私，是否有當？敬請公決。」上述文字與黃委員辦公室做過協調，也已取得共識了。"],["主席：魯明哲委員同意嗎？"],["魯委員明哲：OK。"],["主席：好，同意的話，第二案就照修正後的文字通過。","第三案，行政機關有沒有意見？"],["葉局長協隆：報告召委，行政機關遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，我們就通過。","第四案，行政機關有沒有意見？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：報告召委，行政機關沒有意見，遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，遵照辦理，我們就照案通過。","第五案。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：報告召委，一樣，行政機關遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，遵照辦理，我們就照案通過。","向各位報告，臨時提案共計5案，依照行政機關與提案委員之意見，5案均已處理完畢，謝謝大家。臨時提案已處理完畢，如有委員要對上述提案補簽名，列入紀錄，刊登公報。","現在繼續請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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現在的反而是雖然鬆了一口氣但是擔心的是90天以後怎麼辦那90天的這個關鍵期裡面現在又發生一件事情出貨"},{"start":192.535,"end":209.004,"text":"趕快要出我如果不敢在這90天出我未來不知道面對什麼狀況可能會好或是可能會更不好所以在這90天現在我們的台中的產業界代表告訴我我們交通部可不可以幫幫忙幫什麼忙船"},{"start":211.484,"end":229.352,"text":"倉位還有呢這個港口的相關的可以協助產業的部分那部長你說你開過會了那這個部分有沒有盤點報告委員這個部分我們也都有盤點那我上個禮拜我就說這個變化很快但幅度不大"},{"start":230.012,"end":247.232,"text":"上個禮拜我來這邊備詢的時候那個時候我是說當時是還32%的時候我說大概降了5%我們整個艙位的數量有人退運了嘛所以降了差不多5%那到了這個禮拜回復到原本水準以外再增加了5%也就是說現在艙位大概是90%到95%左右"},{"start":249.855,"end":273.357,"text":"那目前都還有空位這個部分我們隨時都在盤點隨時掌握情況對沒有錯數字都在掌握那另外其實委員你也跟我提醒過好幾次所以我們這個航港局這邊其實禮拜十八號我們十八號禮拜五就會開一個平穩小組的會議隨時盤點除了數量之外那傳奇餐外之外還有就是它的價格我們也希望能夠平穩"},{"start":273.837,"end":291.428,"text":"重點是價格對所以這個部分我們18號就會開這個平穩的這個小組來討論這件事所以你現在航廠局在官網設置一個急用需求的調查表是那目前有出口業者填報嗎8號會員目前沒有目前沒有我們每天都會關注有在關注每天都會看"},{"start":292.409,"end":307.43,"text":"認為沒有的原因是在剛剛部長所講的盤點出來我們現在還有餘裕所以目前還有餘裕還有餘裕所以我希望啦在你4月18號的這個小組會就是下面下一頁"},{"start":308.211,"end":324.748,"text":"我們要先做好準備因為剛剛部長講的現在看起來好像我們可以安然度過但是呢90天之後不知道那再扣除可能在海上或在海上要30天所以90天扣掉30天可能是60天我們現在中部的產業界不斷地在"},{"start":327.111,"end":341.552,"text":"趕貨 趕出貨 那業者說能不能上船 對不起能不能上得了這個貨船 是一個非常大的一個挑戰所以最重要是價格"},{"start":342.313,"end":366.073,"text":"最重要是價格所以這個國際海運運輸的平穩的工作小組這個會議4月18號要開有召集哪些人來開經出口的商業同業工會還有各類別的同業工會產業工會另外就是我們三大國籍的行商還有我們經濟部、農業部相關的部會都有參與"},{"start":367.254,"end":394.87,"text":"業者 業者代表產業界呢產業界就是剛剛報告的包括工具機的這個同位公會 機械同位公會還有進出口的三個同位公會所以產業界代表都有邀請有代表來參加啦 工協會的代表那再來還有就是這個航運啊 出口業者啦 進出口公會等等啦這個一定都要在裡面好不好那4月18號結果如何也讓我們交通委員會委員知道一下那接下來"},{"start":395.911,"end":417.529,"text":"台中除了產業再來就是交通跟觀光那上次我們去豐原考察部長也到現場所以我們去考察的時候是說豐原是北台中的一個最重要的一個交通樞紐也是一個轉成的一個中心那每年大概有600萬的人次上下車那我們現在只有兩個班"},{"start":420.031,"end":441.291,"text":"應該是說往返四個班次去兩班回來兩班直達車現場考察的時候部長有承諾說願意來調整希望能夠增加增加不僅僅是增加直達的包括半直達的那部長你打算怎麼調整"},{"start":442.812,"end":464.203,"text":"這個部分應該台鐵公司已經有做調整我們現在目前剛提到平常日大概有兩個列次現在我們要再增加一倍變成六個列次再增加兩個列次所以會變成六個列次那五六日尖峰會從六列變成八列"},{"start":465.203,"end":475.237,"text":"所以這樣我們這樣算下啦每一週我們大概從本來的32列次改點以後大概6月26會改點大概會變成48個列次那請問一下什麼時候開始"},{"start":476.677,"end":496.65,"text":"6月26號會整個班表改點那6月26號就開始6月26號就開始那我們可以試狀況未來如果可以增加也可以再增加嗎我們可以觀察譬如說半年或者是明年再來看看如果真的需求量大的話是不是可以再增加可以再滾動試檢討好不好以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時9分）謝謝召委。是不是先請陳部長？"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。剛剛魯委員講到川普經濟學，講到川普宣布美國實施高關稅，引起世界大地震，臺灣當然也震得不小。但我們對行政院非常有信心，在各界對談判的期盼下，行政院由副院長鄭麗君領軍，以最快的速度進行盤點，相信部長也有被盤點到？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：要不要說一下交通部的部分？尤其剛剛有多位委員提到汽車及非關稅貿易障礙的問題。就與交通部有關的部分來說，行政院請你盤點的有哪些？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，細節當然不能講，就由談判代表去……"],["何委員欣純：就講原則性跟大概。"],["陳部長世凱：原則上就汽車的非關稅貿易障礙，其實部內也有盤點過，也跟行政院盤點過，大家已經對好了在對美談判時大概要怎麼說……"],["何委員欣純：會有幾套劇本，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，劇本其實也都有了。所有的非關稅貿易障礙中只要跟交通部相關的，我們其實都有盤點過。"],["何委員欣純：都已經盤點過？"],["陳部長世凱：對，都盤點過，這部分……"],["何委員欣純：都逐項評估了？"],["陳部長世凱：對，都有評估了。"],["何委員欣純：在未來談判過程或談判後，不管是對國內的影響或在談判過程中，都以如何能為臺灣人民取得最大利益為原則？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["何委員欣純：而且還要安然度過難關？"],["陳部長世凱：其實從川普的關稅政策出來之後，我們就開始盤點，也跟行政院有默契，也有開過會，所有的細節都對過了，所以就此向委員報告，請大家放心。"],["何委員欣純：請大家放心，因為我們對你有信心、我們對行政院有信心、對我們的執政團隊有信心。","接下來我請你再盤點一件事情。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：這個禮拜經濟委員會去臺中考察，考察美國高關稅政策對臺中產業的影響。你來自臺中，你也知道臺中產業是重中之重，很多都是以外銷出口為導向的傳統基礎工業。過程中有公協會理事長提醒我們，雖然關稅已經從32%降為10%，卻有90天的關鍵觀察期！自從川普宣布90天觀察期之後，我們的產業界從非常擔心頭痛到暫緩90天，現在雖然鬆了一口氣，但也擔心90天以後怎麼辦？而在90天的關鍵期裡又發生一件事情，也就是出貨！要趕快出貨，如果不趕在這90天內出貨，不知道未來要面對什麼樣的狀況！可能會好，或可能更不好！所以臺中的產業界代表告訴我，交通部可不可以幫幫忙？幫什麼忙？船、艙位，還有與港口相關且可以協助產業的部分。部長，你說開過會了，請問這部分有沒有盤點？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分我們都有盤點。我上禮拜就說變化很快，但幅度不大。上禮拜我來備詢還是32%，我說大概降了5%，因為當時有人退運了，所以整個艙位的數量降了差不多5%；到了這個禮拜除回復到原本水準以外，再增加了5%。也就是說，現在的艙位大概是90%到95%左右，目前都還有空位，所以我們隨時都在盤點……"],["何委員欣純：隨時掌握情況？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有錯，數字都在掌握中。另外，由於委員也提醒過好幾次，所以航港局在18號（禮拜五）就會召開平穩小組會議，除隨時盤點數量外，船期、艙位及價格我們也希望能夠平穩。"],["何委員欣純：重點是價格？"],["陳部長世凱：對，所以我們18號就會開平穩小組會議討論這件事。"],["何委員欣純：現在航港局在官網設置了急用需求調查表？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：目前有出口業者填報嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["何委員欣純：目前沒有？"],["葉局長協隆：但我們每天都會關注。"],["何委員欣純：有在關注？"],["葉局長協隆：每天都會看。"],["何委員欣純：你認為沒有的原因是因為如同剛剛部長所說，盤點出來之後還有餘裕？"],["葉局長協隆：目前艙位還有餘裕。"],["何委員欣純：我希望你們在4月18日召開小組會議前要先做好準備，從剛剛部長講的來看，好像我們可以安然度過，至於90天之後如何？不知道！再扣除貨在海上要30天時間，所以90天扣掉30天，其實只剩60天。現在中部產業界不斷在趕貨、趕出貨，業者說能不能上得了貨船是一個非常大的挑戰，所以最重要的是價格。因此，國際海運運輸平穩工作小組會議即將在4月18日召開，有召集哪些人來開？"],["葉局長協隆：跟委員報告，進出口商業同業公會，還有各類別同業公會、產業公會，另外就是三大國籍航商及經濟部、農業部等相關部會都有參與。"],["何委員欣純：業者代表及產業界呢？"],["葉局長協隆：產業界就是剛剛報告的，包括工具機同業公會、機械同業公會及進出口商業同業公會，產業界代表都有邀請。"],["何委員欣純：我建議邀請更大面向的公協會代表來參加。再來，航運業者、出口業者、進出口公會等等，一定都要在裡面，好不好？4月18日會議結果如何，也讓交通委員會委員知道一下。","臺中除了產業以外，再來就是交通跟觀光。上次我們去豐原考察，部長也有到現場。我們考察時有提到，豐原是北臺中最重要的交通樞紐，也是一個轉乘中心，每年大概有600萬人次上下車，但現在只有兩班，往返就是四個班次，去兩班、回來兩班的直達車。現場考察時部長承諾願意調整……"],["陳部長世凱：希望能夠增加。"],["何委員欣純：對，希望能夠增加。但不僅增加直達車，包括半直達的也要。部長，你打算怎麼調整？"],["陳部長世凱：這部分臺鐵公司應該已經有做調整。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，目前平常日是兩個列次，現在要再增加一倍，變成六個列次。也就是再增加兩個列次，變成六個列次。至於五、六、日尖峰時間會從六列變成八列，這樣算下來，在6月26日改點後，每週從本來的三十二列次變成四十八列次。"],["何委員欣純：請問什麼時候開始？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：6月26日。"],["陳部長世凱：6月26日整個班表改點，所以從6月26日開始。"],["何委員欣純：6月26日開始？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：若未來可以視狀況再增加的話，也可以再增加嗎？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：這個可以到時候我們再來……"],["何委員欣純：比如觀察半年？或明年再來看看？如果需求量大的話，是不是可以再增加？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我們到那時候會再滾動檢討。"],["何委員欣純：再滾動式檢討，好不好？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","接下來請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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主席各位先進我們請經濟部的郭部長郭部長以及經濟部的柳主委一起好嗎好 柳主委"},{"start":22.366,"end":48.567,"text":"委員好兩位長官好我請教因為我也是同一個問題今天很多人疑問了我們到底是第一輪還是第幾輪因為美國商務部公布的第一輪沒有台灣就日本 韓國 印度 英國 澳國英國 澳洲已經早就談過了我們沒有但是我們的總統府那裡又發布說有 第一輪談了所以我的解讀"},{"start":51.989,"end":73.535,"text":"我的解讀當然各位兩位都沒有參加但是這個對我們也很重要你們是經貿的長官大長官這個我的解讀411我仔細看了好幾份的一個報導它就是說雙方面就關稅以及非關稅貿易的障礙做了一些溝通"},{"start":74.926,"end":96.914,"text":"我感覺啊 我請教各位我這樣解讀對不對411那個會議是一種類似我們法院的裡面的準備庭他不是實質進入那個辯論庭啊真的在那去談他是一個準備庭就開始問你名字啊問你們現象啊 問你幾個項目要談啊什麼之類的我這樣解讀對不對 請教兩位長官"},{"start":101.537,"end":114.43,"text":"比較類似準備廳我想委員是這方面的專家但是我分享一下因為我太太以前也在WTO談判做了十幾年就我的認知是通常我們會做技術型的談判針對要談的條件由技術官員先做USTR先做一個技術談判然後最後才會往上走"},{"start":121.978,"end":138.724,"text":"那這個過程就要看雙方在技術談判上的爭議點多不多爭議點越少的一定會先越早上去對 這個要國務長同意吧是準備點的概念但是如果我們因為要維護台灣的權益因為大家關心的當然這個過程大家關心的是說我們不能談一個好的deal現在是10%到32%之間嘛"},{"start":147.392,"end":157.367,"text":"是不是事實上原來現在是為止10%大家好高興喔股市漲啊什麼之類的其實不要忘了我們到美國原來是3%錯了請指正原來3%這個要顧不準對吧原來是3%看產業表"},{"start":164.383,"end":192.76,"text":"要看哪一些產業AverageAverageAverage美國他本來是3.1%對就3%左右對Average是3%但是現在一概的都是10%他已經給很大的favor給很大的message所以是10%到12%我特別請教郭部長你心目中有沒有一個說我們如果談到多少我對國人就很有交代"},{"start":194.875,"end":196.436,"text":"因為我不是談判委員因為我沒有授予這樣的一個談判的目標"},{"start":218.444,"end":236.987,"text":"那如果就大家一樣的國內的想法當然是維持原來的稅率是最好那原來稅率是3%他現在他就10%但是他現在已經調到10%那這10%可能就是美國他們政府的一個目的基礎目"},{"start":237.708,"end":260.083,"text":"基礎稅率不可能再降了我們要談到10%已經是100分了啦所以我們大概可以觀察現在它的第一波出來的那個五國的稅率是什麼那個大概是一個referenceOK好那現在跟那個主委請回座跟這個有關係的其實稅率最高的是最健康食品"},{"start":261.824,"end":285.64,"text":"我剛才問了未還問了問了哪半個財政是你們管的健康食品是你們管的不是我們不管的是這個這一部分你有沒有對於我們國內的健康食品的相關產業有沒有衝擊30%如果變0可信性如何因為如果是對等關稅除非美國的關稅是0美國大概是0美國現在美國的關稅是8%8%好我們就降到8%我們有沒有印象"},{"start":291.021,"end":307.748,"text":"但是他現在對我們當然是有衝擊啦對我們目前的這個這個就是看他們如何去調適啦這畢竟是國家的大事這是一個 另外有一個汽車產業17.5汽車產業17.5還有它的零組件在那邊影響著工作人員"},{"start":315.029,"end":341.85,"text":"我們的勞工有十幾萬人衝擊是蠻大的當然有人在批評說保護下來不好啦什麼之類把他歸他現在如果歸成零這個衝擊相當大這個我們的物性價會增加失業率會增加對社會造成一個很大的社會問題這個你的觀點怎麼樣這一部分我的建議是這樣子就是說台灣因為電子零組件很強對"},{"start":343.371,"end":363.892,"text":"那麼現在台灣的這個車廠都是做油車所以我們如果跟他們建議他回到因為大部分都是日本的品牌比較多所以我們建議是不是他們的電動車可以在台灣的這些電子零組件有優勢的國家裡面可以來生產電動車這是一個最快的轉換"},{"start":364.793,"end":376.701,"text":"我覺得既有已有的員工那麼也有生產線那麼也有市場這個是我們的一個建議我回到比較笨的問題了那你期待17.5可以降到多少你覺得可以接受對產業衝擊沒那麼大大家一看你變成0我們有跑過模型了我們有跑過經濟模型大概我們大概可以7年"},{"start":391.909,"end":416.219,"text":"七年就是說在七年內如果說我們可以安排他們轉型大概不會產生衝擊啦所以七年安排轉型但是稅率就零開始囉就是最worst case是零的話最worst case就是從只要台美1000元就從零開始然後七年以後他們可以適應所以七年你要有一個輔導方案出來"},{"start":419.921,"end":440.086,"text":"我們當然會我們的輔導方案會出來嘛但我的意思就是說當我們這是基本假設啦不會這個樣子當17.5的稅萬一是零被要求是零的時候那麼對這個產業的衝擊會造成實質的影響我們跑過模型大概要七年才會產生其實你們可以去跟美國argue"},{"start":441.746,"end":463.985,"text":"這個稍微跟他討論一下所以我們意思就是說我們做最快的這個打算我們也跟原廠跟台灣的這些廠商其實我們都了解啦台灣的市場美國車即便你變零美國車也不是賣得最好的台灣人喜歡歐洲車啊日本車啊大部分來進來都還是日本車啦日本車啊對啊在美國的日本車啦在美國的日本車"},{"start":465.35,"end":490.601,"text":"所以這個基本上大家都買進口車啊因為沒有稅了以後大家沒有買進口車所以本土的車廠他們確實會造到一些這個其實從對等關稅的角度台灣的車去美國的很少都是沙灘車啦沙灘車台灣去的整車非常少但是我們的up market是很棒的是up market是很棒的是的那個半導體他說要課稅現在還沒出來你認為他可能課多少"},{"start":492.904,"end":514.876,"text":"這個還要看啊因為美國現在在做這個國安調查那我再看他的國安調查之後他們才會做一個確定啊所以我們現在很密切注意這樣的一個命題目前多少目前的話啊這個半導體的這個稅是零啊先把他繼續領吧是是謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時11分）主席、各位先進。請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["賴委員士葆：以及國發會劉主委，一起好嗎？"],["主席：劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。我請教啦！因為我也是同一個問題，今天很多人也問這個疑問，就是我們到底是第一輪還是第幾輪？因為美國商務部公布的第一輪沒有臺灣，只有日本、韓國、印度、英國、澳洲，英國、Australia已經早就談過了，我們沒有，但是總統府那裡又發布說有，第一輪談了，所以我的解讀啦！當然兩位都沒有參加，但是這個對我們又很重要，你們是經貿的大長官啊！我的解讀，411我仔細看了好幾份報導，它是說雙方面就關稅以及非關稅貿易障礙做了一些溝通，我感覺啊！我請教各位我這樣解讀對不對，411那個會議是類似我們法院裡面的準備庭，它不是實質進入辯論庭真的這樣去談，它是一個準備庭，就開始問你名字啊！問你們現象啊！問你幾個項目要談啊！什麼之類的，我這樣解讀對不對？請教兩位長官，它是比較類似準備庭。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我想委員是這方面的專家，但是我分享一下，因為我太太以前也在WTO談判做了十幾年，就我的認知是，通常我們會做技術型的談判，針對要談的條件，由技術官員先跟USTR做一個技術談判，最後才會往上走，這個過程就要看雙方在技術談判上的爭議點多不多，爭議點越少的，一定先越早……"],["賴委員士葆：所以是準備庭的概念嘛！對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：先越早上去。"],["賴委員士葆：郭部長同意吧？是準備庭的概念。"],["郭部長智輝：同意。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是我們因為要維護臺灣的權益，所以最後一定會好好地去決定。"],["賴委員士葆：當然這個都過程啦！大家關心的是我們能不能談一個好的deal，現在是10%到32%之間，是不是？現在是維持10%，大家好高興啊！股市漲啊！什麼之類的，其實不要忘了，我們到美國原來是3%，錯了請指正，原來是3%，郭部長，對吧？原來是3%。"],["郭部長智輝：要看哪一些產業啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不，average。"],["郭部長智輝：average，美國它本來是3.1%。"],["賴委員士葆：對，就3%左右嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員士葆：以前average是3%，但是現在一概都是10%，它已經給很大favor，給很大的mercy，所以是10%到12%。我特別請教郭部長，你心目中有沒有一個目標說我們如果談到多少，對國人就很有交代？當然越低越好啦！就10%最好，但是我看這個可能性也不高，我們能夠接受到哪裡？加起來除以2，10加32，42除以2等於21。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我不是談判委員，所以我可能……"],["賴委員士葆：那你就從產業發展，希望……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我沒有被授予這樣一個談判目標，如果就國人的想法，當然是維持原來的稅率最好。"],["賴委員士葆：原來稅率是3%，它現在就10%開始更新。"],["郭部長智輝：但是它現在已經調到10%，這10%可能就是美國政府的一個目的。"],["賴委員士葆：基礎稅率，不可能再降了。"],["郭部長智輝：對，可能……"],["賴委員士葆：能夠談到10%已經是100分了啦！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們可以觀察它現在第一波出來的5國的稅率是什麼，那個大概是一個reference。"],["賴委員士葆：好，主委請回座。與這個有關係的，其實稅率最高的是健康食品，我剛才跑去衛環問了，問了老半天才知道是你們管的，健康食品是你們管的，不是衛福部管的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這一部分對於我們國內健康食品的相關產業有沒有衝擊？30%如果變零，可行性如何？"],["郭部長智輝：如果是對等關稅，除非美國的關稅是零，所以大概要……"],["賴委員士葆：美國大概是零哦！他們會自己做……"],["郭部長智輝：美國的關稅是8%。"],["賴委員士葆：8%，好，那就降到8%，對我們有沒有影響？"],["郭部長智輝：對我們當然是有衝擊啦！對我們目前的……"],["賴委員士葆：我們的產業承受得起嗎？他們如果8%，我們承受得起嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是看他們如何去調適啦！這個畢竟是國家的大事。"],["賴委員士葆：這是一個。另外有一個，汽車產業17.5%，還有它的零組件，這裡面影響的工作人員，我們的勞工有十幾萬人，衝擊是滿大的。當然有人在批評說保護也不好啦！什麼之類，它現在如果歸成零，這個衝擊相當大，我們的無薪假會增加、失業率會增加，對社會造成一個很大的社會問題，你的觀點怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。這一部分我的建議是這樣子，臺灣因為電子零組件很強，那麼現在臺灣的車廠都是做油車，所以我們如果跟他們建議，因為大部分都是日本的品牌比較多，所以我們建議是不是他們的電動車，在臺灣這些電子零組件有優勢的國家裡面，可以來生產電動車，這是最快的轉換，我覺得已有的員工，那麼也有生產線、那麼也有市場，這個是我們的建議。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我回到比較笨的問題，你期待17.5%可以降到多少，你覺得可以接受，對產業衝擊沒那麼大，大家承受得起？變成零可以承受得起嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有跑過模型啦！"],["賴委員士葆：多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有跑過經濟模型。"],["賴委員士葆：大概多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概可以7年。"],["賴委員士葆：7年怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：在7年內如果我們可以安排他們轉型，大概不會產生衝擊。"],["賴委員士葆：所以7年安排轉型，但是稅率就是零開始囉？"],["郭部長智輝：就是最worst-case是零的話。"],["賴委員士葆：對，worst-case就是只要臺美一簽約……"],["郭部長智輝：17.5……"],["賴委員士葆：就從零開始。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員士葆：然後7年以後他們可以適應。"],["郭部長智輝：就是7年以後才會造成……"],["賴委員士葆：所以7年你要有一個輔導方案出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的輔導方案會出來，但我的意思是說，這是基本假設啦！不會這個樣子，當17.5%的稅萬一是零，被要求是零的時候，那麼對這個產業的衝擊會造成實質的影響，我們跑過模型，大概要7年才會產生……"],["賴委員士葆：其實你們可以去跟美國argue，稍微跟它討論一下。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們的意思是說，我們做最壞的打算，我們也跟原廠，跟臺灣的這些廠商講你做轉型。"],["賴委員士葆：其實我們都瞭解啦！以臺灣的市場，美國車即便你變零，美國車也不是賣得最好的，臺灣人喜歡歐洲車、日本車。"],["郭部長智輝：美國大部分進來都還是日本車。"],["賴委員士葆：日本車，對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：在美國的日本車。"],["賴委員士葆：在美國的日本車。"],["郭部長智輝：所以基本上大家都買進口車，因為沒有稅了以後大家都買進口車，本土的車廠確實會遭到一些影響。"],["賴委員士葆：其實從對等關稅的角度，臺灣的車去美國的很少。"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣都是沙灘車。"],["賴委員士葆：只有沙灘車。"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣去的整車非常少。"],["賴委員士葆：但是我們的aftermarket是很棒的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，aftermarket是很棒，是的。"],["賴委員士葆：半導體它說要課稅，現在還沒出來，你認為它可能課多少？"],["郭部長智輝：這個還要看，因為美國現在在做國安調查，在他們做完國安調查之後才會做一個確定，所以我們現在密切注意這樣的一個命題。"],["賴委員士葆：目前課多少？"],["郭部長智輝：目前的話，半導體的稅率是零。"],["賴委員士葆：那就想辦法繼續零吧！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請黃國昌委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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可以延期或者是申請分期那也不計利息這個部分不用付利息啊不用計算利息 不要加計利息的OK 那我想這是一個很好的一個方法畢竟這個關稅大戰也不是這些中小企業組他們"},{"start":128.43,"end":150.029,"text":"自己犯了什麼錯而是因為大環境的改變所以謝謝部長向來我對中小企業的支持我是全力支持畢竟台灣過去經濟的發展都是靠中小企業一點一滴然後慢慢的逐步的成長"},{"start":151.01,"end":172.59,"text":"所以你剛剛說,繳不起錢的,就可以延後,分36期,或者是說還可以寫個報告,利息也都可以不用出,是不是?這個充值的話,我們申請延期分期是不用加計利息的,對好,謝謝,那另外很多的銀行啊,會不會抽銀根啊?"},{"start":174.875,"end":191.773,"text":"我想在我們在參與這個業者座談會的時候許多業者都提出說希望不要抽銀根那我們這個部分也特別有提醒說告訴他們說其實不管你在續借或者是在延期的部分都可以跟原來的銀行去商討而且金管會也會跟經濟部還有銀行工會"},{"start":196.538,"end":214.794,"text":"去做討論希望給業者有比較好的一個寬緩的時間來做那也不能是做雨天收傘的動作謝謝我們希望說的要做到啦因為事實上現在有很多的這個社會上很多銀行已經開始抽銀根了"},{"start":215.68,"end":231.882,"text":"那沒有關係謝謝部長剛剛講的那麼誠懇而且那麼有善意對我們中小企業的支持所以在這裡也跟大家宣布如果全國各中小企業如果受到抽銀根的情況"},{"start":233.344,"end":262.023,"text":"會感覺企業經營困難因為企業經營不下去接下來就是裁員裁的又都是我們國人又是我們自己的兄弟姊妹所以我們是於心不忍所以裁委會也是一個很好的申訴管道那另外再請教一下部長國安基金是不是已經配合八大公股銀行已經開始進場來承接了"},{"start":263.541,"end":268.925,"text":"經過委員會的討論以後已經授權我們的執行秘書可以去做有關的一個覆盤開始動起來了嗎我想這個部分我們的由執行秘書來做執行已經在4月8號開會4月9號就開始在執行了看起來這個金額夠不夠我想過往我們這個執行秘書在操盤的部分是非常有經驗的"},{"start":293.888,"end":308.16,"text":"那如果說錢不夠可不可以把去年政府超收的稅額5280億你也可以部分先來推動這些你所謂的護盤計畫"},{"start":310.049,"end":310.669,"text":"現在3000多億計畫怎麼用?"},{"start":328.633,"end":351.658,"text":"三千多億這個部分我們第一個就是還債也多還了一些債然後原來要借錢的部分也沒有借大概1750億也沒有借那其他的部分會到稅基剩餘當然這個部分稅基剩餘要必須到決算的時候才能夠確定也才能夠去動用現在全民苦哈那我還是站在民眾的立場來"},{"start":353.769,"end":373.174,"text":"跟部長請命啊就是全民還是需要期盼今年可以一個人發一萬塊的紅包一人發一萬快樂常相伴一人發一萬大人小孩通通有希望"},{"start":374.437,"end":394.231,"text":"希望部長記住苦民所苦因為最近便當長得不像話以前一個雞腿便當大概90後來變100部長妳知道現在便當一個多少錢大概100或120左右雞腿便當池上的霸西坑"},{"start":395.908,"end":421.477,"text":"所以我的意思是說爭取的紅包是要來補貼這些嗷嗷嗷代補的一般的市井小民我們真的很需要真的很需要我在外面第一線跑大家都有一些家長可能家裡有兩個小朋友一個是四歲一個是小學一年級他們覺得現在連買奶粉錢"},{"start":422.796,"end":446.672,"text":"都有點困窘啊雖然我們上次奶粉關稅有降奶粉還是繼續漲啊部長你知道這個情況嗎我想委員一直都非常關心這個議題對我還是要繼續關心啊因為民眾的反應我們第一線就要把現實的情況來告訴部長部長另外再請教一下現在銀行啊這些"},{"start":449.673,"end":473.924,"text":"你管得到公費 手上是買了很多的美債有沒有統計累積的金額有多少這個部分我想我們會後會再把它累總以後 會總以後給委員銀行手上買了那麼多的美債那如果他 央行總裁說他到時候都不計利息等於是賴債 就是有點像倒債"},{"start":475.185,"end":503.45,"text":"那你怎麼控管這銀行會不會受到波及我想大家其實央行總裁也好幾次在立法院不管是財委會或昨天的院會質詢裡面都有做回應其實這個大家都這麼在說但是國際間好像對這個部分並沒有太多的討論之所以美債是安全的這個部分當然這個我不是這方面的專家這個怎麼判斷你要不要告訴央行總裁總裁很擔心"},{"start":504.86,"end":523.646,"text":"我想您今天的質詢央行總裁也一定都在看他人沒來啦希望你趕快跟他講因為本席在一年多兩年前就誠心問過總裁說那這個美國派遣公債會不會有問題"},{"start":526.625,"end":551.125,"text":"那當初講他說他會審慎來評估應該是OK可是這幾天他的說法已經開始感覺到是有危險的美國公債十年期的殖利率不斷的飆升啊這很不正常啊好 那我再來問一下 部長什麼叫做息產地"},{"start":552.396,"end":581.128,"text":"過去一二十年來有什麼國的產品在台灣是息產地的或是你要請經濟部說明都可以息產地我想大概大家就是一個稱法就俗稱嘛也就是說它不是我們台灣生產的Made in Taiwan但是是掛著MIT的這樣一個標籤就是這樣子啊對那就是產品的百分之多少是如果不是台灣做的就叫息產地"},{"start":582.05,"end":611.262,"text":"這個部分經濟部他們有相關的規範好請經濟部事實上現在目前從大陸從東南亞進來的物品很多都是半成品啊那請問經濟部你怎麼來界定誰是誰洗的產品有兩個原則如果呢它經過這個處理之後呢附加價值超過35%的話就是認為是台灣的產品另外一個的話就是經過加工之後"},{"start":611.704,"end":626.911,"text":"整個稅號的完全的改變這個就叫做這個台灣的產品或是標籤把它換掉是不是標籤換掉的話就是違規的行為OK好謝謝可是你講的到底算不算呢你有跟川普溝通過嗎"},{"start":632.82,"end":649.571,"text":"這個未來的話我們會透過各種管道去跟美方去做說明因為現在我發現即便那邊講很多最後全部被推翻之前有人說斬釘截鐵說最多10%後來出來是32%現在對台灣的課的稅次長你估計是幾%半導體的部分"},{"start":657.114,"end":675.601,"text":"這個部分的話未來會極力的幫業者來做爭取我想最重要的就是要維護我們國家的利益還要保持產業的競爭力有沒有可能零關稅我們要是談判的情形我們一定會去爭取產業最大的利益還有這個國家的利益不要陪著夫人又折兵"},{"start":676.98,"end":703.472,"text":"上次你在這邊我跟妳建議我們還有很多的籌碼包括央行的外匯存底我們買了大概4000多億的美國公債你也可以做一個談判的基礎以及所有的金融銀行買了多少公債你們手上有資料嗎我們所有的資料都有做萬全的準備多少"},{"start":706.462,"end":731.966,"text":"好 那我再問你一個所有保險公司這點你都不知道啦保險公司買了多少美元公債你也不知道我跟你講啊 加一加喔也是好幾千億的美元啊所以我們都在講央行 其他都沒算進去可是這些都可以作為你談判的一個籌碼是不是 次長"},{"start":736.027,"end":764.261,"text":"是 我們會 談判團隊會把各種對我方有利的都會納入考量好 謝謝你等一下可以跟莊部長聊聊他手上還有很多籌碼他沒有一次告訴你謝謝但是現在面對國難當頭大家一定要團結在一起對不對我們要口徑一致我們要團結對外來保護我們國內的所有中小企業人民的生存"},{"start":764.824,"end":765.905,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝明察委員接著我們請王世堅委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":947,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時4分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請財政部莊部長、經濟部江次長還有農業部杜次長？"],["主席：好，請莊部長、江次長，還有杜次長。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：關稅、貿易戰開打，事實上我們全國的企業都非常地緊張，不曉得未來何去何從。首先請教莊部長，5月綜所稅就要申報了，現在有什麼新的制度變革嗎？往後延了嗎？如果今年度有困難、繳不出錢，可不可以往後延？或者可以申請明年再繳？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，今年的所得稅結算申報會延長1個月，從5月1日到6月30日，讓民眾因應關稅相關政策的時候有一段寬廣的時間申報。第二個部分，如果……"],["羅委員明才：為什麼今年會往後延1個月？"],["莊部長翠雲：就如剛剛講的，因為民眾也好、企業也好，或是受影響的產業，可能要處理訂單等事情，所以不用在1個月內即時申報，讓它有一段比較寬廣的時間、寬闊的時間申報。至於它如果沒有辦法在繳稅期間內繳清的話，也可以申請延期或分期，分期最長可以分到36期，也就是分為3年繳納。"],["羅委員明才：所以可以延期就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，可以延期或申請分期，這部分也不計利息。"],["羅委員明才：不用付利息啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：不用加計利息的。"],["羅委員明才：OK，我想這是很好的方法啦！畢竟關稅大戰也不是因為這些中小企業主自己犯了什麼錯，而是因為大環境的改變，所以謝謝部長。對於中小企業，我向來也是全力支持，畢竟臺灣過去的經濟發展都是靠中小企業一點一滴、慢慢地逐步成長，所以你剛剛說繳不起錢的就可以延後、分36期或者是還可以寫個報告，利息也都可以不用出，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，如果受到這個衝擊，申請延期、分期是不用加計利息的。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。另外，會不會有很多銀行抽銀根啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們在參與業者座談會的時候，許多業者都提出希望不要抽銀根，我們就這部分也特別提醒……告訴他們，不管是續借或延期，都可以跟原來的銀行商妥。而且金管會也會跟經濟部還有銀行公會討論，希望給業者比較好的、寬緩的時間，且不能雨天收傘。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝，我們也希望說到要做到啦！事實上，現在社會上已經有很多銀行開始抽銀根了，但沒有關係，謝謝部長剛剛講得那麼誠懇，而且那麼有善意，展現對中小企業的支持，所以我在這裡也跟大家宣布，全國各中小企業如果遭受到抽銀根的情況、感覺企業經營困難，由於企業若經營不下去，接下去就是裁員啊！對不對？裁的又都是國人、是我們自己的兄弟姊妹，所以我們於心不忍啦！那麼財委會也是很好的申訴管道。","另外再請教一下部長，國安基金是不是已經配合八大公股銀行開始進場承接了？"],["莊部長翠雲：國安基金經過委員會的討論以後，已經授權執行秘書，可以做有關的護盤。"],["羅委員明才：開始動起來了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分由執行秘書執行，4月8日開會，4月9日就開始執行了。"],["羅委員明才：看起來，這個金額夠不夠？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想執行秘書過往在操盤上是非常有經驗的。"],["羅委員明才：好。","如果錢不夠，可不可以用去年政府超徵、超收的稅額5,280億元？也可以用部分先來推動這些所謂的護盤計畫啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：針對國安基金，國安基金條例裡面有規定其額度，而去年所收超過預算數的五千多億元還有一些部分屬於地方政府，中央政府大概是三千多億元。"],["羅委員明才：那這三千多億元現在計劃怎麼用？"],["莊部長翠雲：三千多億這部分，我們第一個就是用來還債，多還了一些債，原來要借錢的部分也沒有借，大概有1,750億元沒有借。其他部分計入歲計賸餘，當然歲計賸餘這部分必須到決算的時候才能夠確定，也才能夠動用。"],["羅委員明才：現在全民苦哈哈，我還是站在民眾的立場跟部長請命：全民還是需要、期盼今年可以一個人發1萬元紅包。一人發一萬，快樂常相伴；一人發一萬，大人、小孩統統有希望，希望部長記住，苦民所苦。最近便當漲得不像話啊！以前一個雞腿便當大概90元，後來變成100元。部長，你可知道現在便當一個多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：大概100元或120元左右。"],["羅委員明才：雞腿便當──池上的，140元！"],["莊部長翠雲：喔！"],["羅委員明才：我的意思是爭取紅包是要補貼這些嗷嗷待哺的一般市井小民，我們真的很需要、真的很需要！我在外面第一線跑，有些家長例如家裡可能有2個小朋友，一個4歲、一個小學一年級，他們覺得現在連買奶粉的錢都有點困窘啊！雖然上次奶粉關稅有降，但奶粉還是繼續漲啊！部長，你知道這個情況嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員一直非常關心這個議題。"],["羅委員明才：對，我還是要繼續關心啦！因為這是民眾的反映，我們在第一線，就要把現實的情況告訴部長。","部長，我另外再請教一下，你管得到公股銀行，而現在銀行手上買了很多美債，你有沒有統計累積金額有多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：這部分我們會後累總、彙總以後給委員。"],["羅委員明才：銀行手上買了那麼多美債，如果如央行總裁說的到時候都不計利息，等於是賴債，也就是有點像倒債，那你怎麼控管？這些銀行會不會受到波及？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實央行總裁也好幾次在立法院，不管是在財委會或昨天的院會質詢裡面都有回應。雖然大家都在這麼說，但是國際間對於這個部分好像並沒有太多討論。"],["羅委員明才：所以美債是安全的？"],["莊部長翠雲：我當然不是這方面的專家，這個部分怎麼判斷？"],["羅委員明才：你要不要告訴央行總裁？總裁很擔心耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：我想您今天的質詢，央行總裁也一定在看。"],["羅委員明才：他人沒來，希望你趕快跟他講。本席在一年多、兩年前就曾經問過總裁：美國發行公債會不會有問題？他當初講的是他會審慎評估，應該是OK，可是這幾天他的說法已經開始讓人感覺到是有危險的。美國公債10年期的殖利率不斷地飆升，這很不正常啊！","那我再問一下，部長，什麼叫做洗產地？過去一、二十年來，有什麼國家的產品是在臺灣洗產地的？或者你要請經濟部說明也都可以。"],["莊部長翠雲：洗產地大概就是大家一種稱法、俗稱，就是指不是台灣生產、非Made in Taiwan，但是掛著MIT這樣的標籤，就是這樣啊！"],["羅委員明才：對，那產品如果有百分之多少不是台灣做的就叫洗產地？"],["莊部長翠雲：針對這部分，經濟部有相關規範。"],["羅委員明才：好，請經濟部。事實上，目前從大陸、從東南亞進來的物品中，有很多都是半成品啊！那請問經濟部，你怎麼鑑定誰是誰洗的產品？"],["江次長文若：有2個原則：如果經過處理之後，附加價值超過35%的話，就認為是台灣的產品。另外一個是經過加工之後，整個稅號完全改變，這就叫做台灣的產品。"],["羅委員明才：或者是把標籤換掉啊！是不是？"],["江次長文若：標籤換掉的話就是違規的行為。"],["羅委員明才：OK，謝謝。可是你講的到底算不算呢？你有跟川普溝通過嗎？"],["江次長文若：未來我們會透過各種管道跟美方說明。"],["羅委員明才：現在我發現，即便講很多，最後也會全部被推翻。之前有人斬釘截鐵地說最多10%，後來出來的是32%啊！次長，你估計現在美國對台灣課的稅是幾%？我是指半導體的部分。"],["江次長文若：這個部分我們未來會極力幫業者爭取，我想最重要的就是要維護我們國家的利益，還要保持產業的競爭力。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有可能零關稅？"],["江次長文若：要視談判的情形。我們一定會爭取產業最大利益還有國家利益。"],["羅委員明才：不要賠了夫人又折兵啊！上次你在這邊，我建議你，我們還有很多籌碼，包括央行的外匯存底，我們買了大概四千多億美金的美國公債，你也可以作為談判的基礎啊！以及所有金融、銀行買了多少公債？你們手上有資料嗎？"],["江次長文若：我們就所有資料都有做萬全的準備。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["江次長文若：我們……"],["羅委員明才：好，那我再問你一個問題：所有保險公司呢？這一點你就不知道啦！保險公司買了多少美元公債？你也不知道。我跟你講啦！加一加也是好幾千億美元啦！我們都在講央行，其他都沒算進去，可是這些都可以作為你談判的籌碼啊！是不是，次長？"],["江次長文若：是，談判團隊會把各種對我方有利的資訊都納入考量。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝，你等一下可以跟莊部長聊聊啊！他手上還有很多籌碼，只是沒有一次告訴你。現在國難當頭，大家一定要團結在一起，對不對？我們要口徑一致、我們要團結對外，來保護國內所有中小企業及人民的生存。謝謝。"],["江次長文若：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝明才委員。","接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfd06bbf2f47948b63b2710058b23c04f81a52cf64e50924c04a7ded5c40f3c2c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"12:01:53 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郭部長委員好"},{"start":19.956,"end":38.428,"text":"部長早安 然後劉主委早安我想先請問劉主委根據賴總統411的說法台灣跟美國進行視訊商議而且台灣列在美國第一波的談判名單之內但是根據最新的華爾街日報報導美國財政部長宣布美國首輪的談判名單包括英國 包括澳洲 日本 南韓 印度"},{"start":47.794,"end":69.403,"text":"但是卻沒有台灣請問主委為什麼第一波沒有台灣呢如果委員記得的話第一次公告第一波名單的時候也是美國公告的那我就我的了解我沒有參與那麼多但是我的了解4月11號台灣進行了第一次的談判但這個談判一定是後續一定是一個陸續談判但這個陸續談判呢"},{"start":71.364,"end":91.048,"text":"談到最後才會做成結論那這個事情是我只能講這個談判在持續進行中持續進行中持續進行中所以第一波應該是沒有我們的意思嗎第一波美國公告如果你回頭看這是美國商務部長講的第一波但是美國政府的公告第一波是有台灣的部長你要補充一下嗎為什麼第一波沒有台灣"},{"start":96.69,"end":124.697,"text":"我們就已經跟他諮商過了啊4月11號當天我們就跟美國來做這個諮商的這個會議嘛這裡面也談到了所以當天部長也有參與沒有沒有參與那所以411的視訊商議的性質到底是什麼兩位部長跟主委其實是不清楚的是 跟委員報告那一天我們大概談的是第一個對等關稅第二個是非關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":125.737,"end":141.336,"text":"第三个是出国管制等都非常多项的这些经贸的议题所以是有具体的那有没有一些具体的产业别呢我想这个两边谈判就我个人的经验来讲一定会先确定命题是什么我们到底要谈什么"},{"start":141.983,"end":155.019,"text":"所以到底是誰跟誰談呢先談的確定不能談的就拿掉大概是這個樣子是 這個我理解但是我們現在比較想要知道的是台灣這邊是誰然後美國這邊是誰這個部長不清楚嗎"},{"start":159.384,"end":170.292,"text":"所以部長也不清楚這個我想主委也不清楚這個倒是知道是由正副院長領軍然後由談判代表辦公室那楊振尼政委領軍來談判那美國那邊呢細節我們並沒有參與美國那邊你們也不曉得所以這一點就是令本席有點擔憂就是我們談的對象到底是誰他的決策權夠大嗎能不能能夠站在"},{"start":187.405,"end":215.708,"text":"比較支持台灣的立場呢那包括說之前針對這個關稅談判呀那個美國的財政部長貝森特他就表示率先談判的國家會獲得更有利的對待那所以本席擔心的為什麼一直問說我們是不是在第一波這個名單裡面就是在擔心說我們會不會是在有利的這個名單裡面所以這一點才會一直想要請教主委請教部長"},{"start":216.949,"end":241.115,"text":"那如果假設我們當然我們有第一次談判但我們的第一次談判不代表我們在他的第一波名單裡面那如果未來我們持續談判主委跟這個部長你們有沒有預估說我們大概會在第幾波的名單當中呢這個細節我們沒有辦法預測因為我們沒有參與這裡面"},{"start":242.639,"end":264.546,"text":"好 那當然本席在這裡有建議建議就是說在面對這個關稅風波的時候更應該謹慎因為中央政府要帶給人民的是安心那這樣子有時候訊息反覆反而會造成民心不安想說我明明就覺得說我們有第一次談判了可是我們竟然不在第一波名單裡面"},{"start":265.546,"end":293.578,"text":"那這樣子會造成社會各界的不安定那我們在越艱難的時刻一定要做最壞的打算最充分的準備希望我們能夠化危機為轉機好不好這是也鼓勵主委也鼓勵部長說實在我也看到這幾週來你們都非常的辛苦不斷的跟產業在溝通不斷的在安撫產業之外也努力想要找出路那這一些努力我們其實是看在眼裡那所以只是希望說"},{"start":294.858,"end":315.764,"text":"我們的訊息啊我們的訊息一定要正確怎麼會我們的這個總統說我們在第一波名單裡面就公佈沒有 我跟你說這會造成很多民眾的一些錯亂跟不安心喔當時是美國先公告的第一波裡面在以色列跟台灣都在他的第一波裡面"},{"start":316.124,"end":335.107,"text":"對啊 但是他又公佈啦 他又最新的公佈裡面那我們也的確4月11號有的第一次的談判 是 那我們希望我們可以再不要說一定要第一波啦 就算是第二波也沒關係 我們可以在前面幾波趕快安定下來 這是我們不只是本席 我相信包括你們 以目前來看我們應該會是嘛 因為他"},{"start":336.769,"end":363.394,"text":"很多在底層的談判技術型談判裡面他應該也許我們還有一點要釐清的吧我在猜啦但是技術型談判結束之後才回到往上走做決策是我們都希望有一個最好的結果好那我是先謝謝主委然後我接下來想要請教部長在這一次的關稅議題上部長覺得什麼是現在台灣最需要去跟美國談的重點項目呢"},{"start":365.424,"end":392.214,"text":"我們最需要的重點項目就是說我們這一次跟美國所談判的關稅能夠為我們國內的廠商能夠爭取到一個很公平但是具有競爭力的這樣的一個線上面然後幫助台灣的這個產業是具有在市場在市場上面的有沒有幾個特別的產業是產業別是你覺得要在重點加強的呢"},{"start":393.334,"end":408.636,"text":"我想他對我們高關稅的部分就是他本來所設計的這個關稅的部分比較高的部分我們認為跟其他的競爭國來比較我們是比較高的那幾個領域都是我們的重點那幾個領域會是哪幾個領域呢"},{"start":410.669,"end":434.414,"text":"目前經濟部有掌握嗎不是我想我們在幾個領域就是說譬如說很多的這個國人擔心我們可能比日本高比韓國高然後比這個有的競爭國高那各個產業的狀況不一樣那本席今天想要跟部長談的就是能源這個項目部長認為我們跟美國能夠救能源這個項目"},{"start":436.31,"end":442.763,"text":"變成是我們談判的一個籌碼嗎?能源、科技都是我們談判的重點"},{"start":443.993,"end":471.323,"text":"那本席也想要提醒部長就是說核能因為美國在台協會AIT的處長古立言他在川普對等關稅尚未宣布之前在上個月的20號在美國的商會的謝年范致詞他就直言說美國可以為台灣提供全方位的這個能源解決方案其中包括核能電網技術"},{"start":472.884,"end":487.995,"text":"那他這一番話也可以是台美經貿合作的另外一個藍圖那美國的核能技術成熟那美國總統川普本身也是核能的擁護者那相信美國應該會支持這樣子的一個"},{"start":490.016,"end":508.314,"text":"貿易那所以本席想要請教部長如果從美國進口核能競速還有反應器的模組燃料棒等等是否可以作為平衡貿易順差的一個策略工具之一呢我們核能的部分對先進科技的核能我們是不反對的"},{"start":509.495,"end":524.848,"text":"我們都可以來積極的討論那我們還是三個原則啦就是說大家有共識核廢料可以處理然後安全無力那在這個三個前提之下我們對新的核能科技是不反對的"},{"start":525.549,"end":545.436,"text":"所以本席要提醒部長既然您不反對是不是能夠真正考量核能作為一種能源戰略合作讓台灣跟美國談判有優勢我們不要只是把它看成一個可能性如果可以把它當作是一個政策工具讓它具體的落實那我相信這絕對會是我們關稅談判的一個很好的籌碼是"},{"start":549.097,"end":564.844,"text":"謝謝委員的提示這一部分的話我們還是維持剛剛跟您報告的三個基本原則如果符合這三個基本原則那所有新的核能科技我們都不反對因為台灣現在真的很需要一張有價值的籌碼那既能達成減碳目標又可以強化"},{"start":569.606,"end":576.837,"text":"對美關係那既能保證這個能源穩定又能夠化解關稅壓力這不就是我們可以主動創造優勢的好機會嗎好不好 謝謝部長我們一起加油謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（12時1分）謝謝召委，請劉主委還有郭部長。"],["主席：劉主委，郭部長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早安、劉主委早安。我先請問劉主委，根據賴總統411的說法，臺灣與美國進行視訊商議，而且臺灣列在美國第一波談判名單之內，但是根據最新的華爾街日報報導，美國財政部長宣布美國首輪談判名單包括英國、澳洲、日本、南韓、印度，但是卻沒有臺灣，請問主委，為什麼第一波沒有臺灣呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果委員記得的話，第一次公告第一波名單的時候也是美國公告的，就我的瞭解，我沒有參與那麼多，但是我的瞭解，4月11日臺灣進行了第一次談判，後續一定是陸續談判，陸續談判談到最後才會作成結論，這件事情我只能講談判在持續進行中、持續進行中，4月11日就開始了。"],["張委員嘉郡：持續進行中，所以意思是第一波應該沒有我們嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第一波美國公告，如果你回頭看，這個是美國商務部長講的第一波。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是美國政府的公告，第一波是有臺灣。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你要不要補充一下？部長，你要補充一下嗎？為什麼第一波沒有臺灣？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們就已經跟它諮商過啦！4月11日當天我們就跟美國來做諮商會議，這裡面也談到……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以當天部長也有參與？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有參與，所以411視訊商議的性質到底是什麼，部長和主委其實是不清楚的？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，那一天我們大概談的，第一個是對等關稅、第二個是非關稅貿易障礙、第三個是出口管制等，有非常多項的經貿議題。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以是有具體的？"],["郭部長智輝：就是去定義要談……"],["張委員嘉郡：那有沒有一些具體的產業別呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我想兩邊談判就我個人的經驗來講，一定會先確定命題是什麼，我們到底要談什麼，然後能談的……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以到底是誰跟誰談？"],["郭部長智輝：先要確定談的，不能談的就拿掉，大概是這個樣子。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個我理解。"],["郭部長智輝：所以進行中就能夠談的部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是我們現在比較想要知道的是，臺灣這邊是誰，然後美國這邊是誰，這個部長不清楚嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是談判小組，我們兩個都不是。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以部長也不清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我想……"],["張委員嘉郡：主委也不清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，這個倒是知道，是由鄭副院長領軍，然後由貿易談判辦公室楊珍妮政委領軍在談判。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，那美國那一邊呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：細節我們並沒有參與。"],["張委員嘉郡：美國那邊你們也不曉得？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們沒有參與。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這一點令本席有點擔憂，我們談的對象到底是誰？他的決策權夠大嗎？能不能夠站在比較支持臺灣的立場呢？包括之前針對關稅談判，美國的財政部長貝森特表示，率先談判的國家會獲得更有利的對待，為什麼本席一直問說我們是不是在第一波名單裡面？就是擔心我們會不會在有利的名單裡面，所以這一點才會一直想要請教主委、請教部長。","如果假設，當然我們有第一次談判，但我們的第一次談判不代表我們在它的第一波名單裡面，如果未來我們持續談判，主委跟部長，你們有沒有預估我們大概會在第幾波名單當中？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：細節我們沒有辦法預測，因為我們沒有參與在裡面。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，本席在這裡建議，在面對關稅風波時更應該謹慎，因為中央政府要帶給人民的是安心，有時候訊息反覆反而會造成民心不安，想說耶！我明明覺得我們有第一次談判了，可是我們竟然不在第一波名單裡面，這樣會造成社會各界的不安定，所以我們在越艱難的時刻，一定要做最壞的打算、最充分的準備，希望能夠化危機為轉機，好不好？這是鼓勵主委也鼓勵部長。","說實在，我也看到這幾週以來你們都非常辛苦，不斷地跟產業在溝通、不斷地在安撫產業之外，也努力想要找出路，這一些努力我們其實是看在眼裡，只是希望說訊息一定要正確，怎麼會總統說我們在第一波名單裡面，結果公布沒有？我跟你說，這會造成很多民眾的錯亂跟不安心。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，當時美國先公告的第一波裡面，以色列跟臺灣都在它的第一波裡面，這個是美國公告出來的。"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊！但是它又公布啦！最新的公布裡面……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們也的確在4月11日有了第一次談判，我想它應該……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，那我們希望可以，不要說一定要第一波啦！就算是第二波也沒關係，我們可以在前面幾波，然後趕快安定下來，我相信不只是本席，包括你們……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以目前來看，我們應該會是嘛！因為很多在底層的談判，技術型談判裡面，也許我們還有一點要釐清的吧！我在猜啦！在技術型談判結束之後，才會往上走做決策。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我們都希望有一個最好的結果，好，先謝謝主委。","我接下來想要請教部長，在這一次的關稅議題上，部長覺得什麼是現在臺灣最需要去跟美國談的重點項目？"],["郭部長智輝：我們最需要的重點項目就是說，我們這一次跟美國所談判的關稅，能夠為國內的廠商爭取到很公平但是具有競爭力，這樣的一個線上面。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這是……"],["郭部長智輝：幫助臺灣的產業具有市場上面的競爭力。"],["張委員嘉郡：有沒有幾個特別的產業別是你覺得要再重點加強的？"],["郭部長智輝：它對我們高關稅的部分，就是它本來所設計的關稅在比較高的部分，我們認為與其他競爭國來比較，我們是比較高的那幾個領域都是我們的重點。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，那幾個領域會是哪幾個領域呢？目前經濟部有掌握嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們在幾個領域，譬如說很多國人擔心我們可能比日本高、比韓國高、比有的競爭國高，各個產業的狀況不一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。本席今天想要跟部長談的就是能源這個項目，部長認為我們跟美國能夠就能源這個項目，變成是我們談判的一個籌碼嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：能源、科技都是我們談判的重點。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席想要提醒部長，美國在臺協會（AIT）處長谷立言，他在川普對等關稅尚未宣布之前，上個月20日在美國商會的謝年飯致詞，他就直言說美國可以為臺灣提供全方位的能源解決方案，其中包括核能、電網技術，他這一番話也可以是臺美經貿合作另外一個藍圖，因為美國的核能技術成熟，美國總統川普本身也是核能的擁護者，相信美國應該會支持這樣的貿易，所以本席想要請教部長，如果從美國進口核能技術，還有反應器的模組、燃料棒等等，是否可以作為平衡貿易順差的策略工具之一？"],["郭部長智輝：核能的部分，對先進科技的核能我們是不反對的，我們都可以積極來討論，但我們還是三個原則啦！就是說大家有共識，核廢料可以處理，然後安全無慮，在這三個前提之下，我們對新的核能科技是不反對的，所以說我們可以討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席要提醒部長，既然您不反對，是不是能夠真正考量核能作為一種能源戰略合作，讓臺灣跟美國談判有優勢？我們不要只是把它看成一個可能性，如果可以把它當作政策工具，讓它具體地落實，我相信這絕對會是我們關稅談判一個很好的籌碼。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的提示，這一部分我們還是維持剛剛跟您報告的三個基本原則，如果符合這三個基本原則，所有新的核能科技我們都不反對。"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊！因為臺灣現在真的很需要一個有價值的籌碼，既能達成減碳目標又可以強化對美關係，既能保證能源穩定又能夠化解關稅壓力，這不就是我們可以主動創造優勢的好機會嗎？好不好？謝謝部長，我們一起加油。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員提示。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝部長，謝謝主委。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請賴士葆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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Taiwan然後如果對美國來講再出口到美國這個就把原來中國字變成台灣字這個叫稀產地第二個可能把"},{"start":109.168,"end":130.769,"text":"貨品進到自由貿易港區物流中心保稅區啊然後就違規他沒有做任何的加工他違規改標比如說原來上面貼的是中國製造現在把它改標成台灣製造這叫違規的改標嘛這個定義沒有錯嘛如果是簡易加工但是沒有那麼大的加工他把它改成改產地然後第二個就是說直接就違規啦他就可以改標啦那個署長這樣對不對這個定義"},{"start":134.998,"end":151.864,"text":"是報告委員基本上就是一個原型態的把它改標出去的一個透過沒有改變那麼大只有簡易或者是直接改標這個違規的改標這個都叫息產地行為對吧那息產地要有什麼樣的條件呢一個地方如果要息產地呢要"},{"start":152.384,"end":178.64,"text":"第一個從大陸如果說沒有辦法中國製大陸製變成台灣製第一個要先進東西嘛進大陸的貨品嘛齁所以一個地方要先進大陸貨品第二個要有加工廠或是工廠改加工或是改標籤嘛要有人去做這個動作嘛齁一個動作嘛齁好或是簡易加工啦齁第三個要輸往美國嘛這美國關切是不能別的地方變成他的嘛變成變成台灣的嘛輸過去所以要有這三個構成要件嘛沒錯吧署長"},{"start":181.479,"end":203.35,"text":"沒錯吧 要進貨物進來要改標或者是簡易加工或者是然後最後還要把它運到美國這是美國關心的 這叫去美國的息產地嘛 正確吧基本上就是這些貨物是標示不實貨或者是衛福規定去標示就過程是這個樣子嘛 息產地的意義是這樣子啦好 那我們來看一下所謂自由貿易港區台灣現在有幾個自由貿易港區 署長六港一空"},{"start":208.252,"end":233.05,"text":"蘇澳港 基隆港 台北港 桃園空港 台中港 安平港 高雄港還有屏東農業生技園區 這些都是自由貿易港區123456789那個生技園區 6港1空 現在至少7個啦 屏東那是生技園區那自由貿易港區 我要講一下為什麼我們金門要修這個離島經濟條例為什麼金門也是一個港府 它不能變成自由貿易港區 關公署長你知道原因嗎"},{"start":234.597,"end":237.982,"text":"報告委員金門因為它不是國際商港因為自由港區要定義在國際航空站會會國際商港金門港雖然跟廈門往來但是被定義不是國際商港沒錯吧在我們國內的法律定義如果今天是國際商港"},{"start":250.06,"end":267.837,"text":"那我們就可以直接申請啦也不用再什麼改什麼離島建條什麼事情都不用做我們就直接申請就好全部按照這個法律嘛對不對因為它不是國際商港嘛雖然賴總統認為廈門跟金門喔中華人民共和國跟中華民國一邊一國但是兩邊往來不是國際往來啊是叫小山通往來啊所以金門的位置很很"},{"start":269.699,"end":299.079,"text":"很委屈啊你一邊說我們兩邊是兩國一邊一國然後這個往來又不叫國際港又叫小山東往來所以我們想要身為用國際港的生命力申請為自由貿易港區又不被准取因為我們叫小山東港不叫國際港所以我們才說那只能修離島建制條約要符合跟國際自由貿易港一樣的待遇嘛持續改在離島建制條約裡面修法如果今天就被認為是國際港我們不用修法對不對沒錯吧就可以直接申請嘛如果金門市地域是國際港是不是可以直接申請"},{"start":303.12,"end":326.227,"text":"是國際港就可以直接申請吧任何國際港都可以申請吧如果被認定是國際港啦這不是你認定的交通部在認定如果是認定的國際港就不用申請不用再修法對不對就是可以直接依照那個自貿港區設置管理條例去申請對就是說如果金門被認為是國際港就不用再修什麼立法建設條例所以是因為我們現在法律架構我們不被認為是國際港但是"},{"start":329.006,"end":342.656,"text":"總統呢又說我們又是這個廈門跟金門又是兩邊又是一邊一國的不同的地區不同的國家互不隸屬我們又切身為名我們又變成是小山東港口所以我們才要去修這個吧好我們來看看現在實際上國內的自由貿易港區裡頭有多少"},{"start":345.858,"end":361.064,"text":"施產地就這種違規的這個行為我也有跟關火署要資料你知道財政部部長你知道現在自由剛我們提的那些金門還沒成立喔剛已經提了這些所謂的自由貿易港區因為違規轉運而被裁罰最多的自由貿易港區在哪裡嗎現行最多的在哪裡嗎部長在高雄對不對沒錯嘛我還給你看一下數據"},{"start":367.56,"end":386.899,"text":"金門什麼都還沒有做 給我們扣帽子現在高雄關 高雄關包括高雄跟台南高雄跟台南才是最大的息產地破口 以目前來講高雄關 高雄港跟安平港因為違規轉運而被裁罰的案件呢這麼多年來最多案件的是112年的48件"},{"start":389.84,"end":411.592,"text":"48件這是關公署給我們資料去年113年是37件那其他的關呢 台中關是零件這自由貿易港區不是指所有的管 只管自由貿易港區台中關是零件 基隆關是五年六件高雄關48件 台北關就是包括航空城五年一件就相當的少"},{"start":412.572,"end":425.964,"text":"那有人說是不是因為高雄港的貨運量比較大所以他比較多案件有這個違規情形不對以去年為例高雄自由貿易港區自貿港的貨運量是101萬公噸台中的是503萬噸台中的運量是高雄的5倍"},{"start":429.827,"end":434.991,"text":"但是台中的案件是零高雄的案件是48件是37件高雄關包括台南港跟安平港跟這個高雄港那其實整個來講這是你們給我知道整個來講我說的只是自由貿易港區所以自由貿易港區事實上違規的轉運的案件相對來講數字來講也是不多啦數字很少"},{"start":449.901,"end":468.633,"text":"所以自由貿易群根本不應該被扣上一個會變成所謂席產地的缺口的這種罪名今天先不要說金門就算高雄 台南啊 哪裡啊整個違規轉移情形很少其他自由貿易港區以外我們不知道但至少在這裡頭這幾年就四十幾件台中甚至是零件"},{"start":469.534,"end":496.94,"text":"所以今天很多人就把自由貿易港區呢扣上了一個帽子說做自由貿易港區就會變成違規洗產地的這種地方呢這個是對這些地區的努力的商家也是很不公平的對高雄的商家對台南商家也是不公平那不管怎麼講現在最多的案件也還是發生在高雄港所以如果照民進黨說現在高雄跟台南才是最大的洗產區破口啊如果照他們現在原則不就違規做的就是高雄跟台南嗎"},{"start":499.714,"end":523.366,"text":"這是數據是關公署我們問的你們是關公署提供給我們的這個是只問自由貿易港區不問其他全部的只問自由貿易港區的因為我們今天只提自由貿易港區剛剛委員講那個37件應該那個是華環的那個金額啦37萬不是不是來113年它是高雄關它是9件112年對9件14件啦好不管幾件很少對不對"},{"start":524.83,"end":543.016,"text":"就很少嘛 對不對自由貿易港區整個違規的形式是不是相當少如果這樣來看一年九件相對的數量是不是很少 台中關甚至零件我的意思就是說自由貿易港區它不應該被擴散一個會洗產地的這種標籤啦不然就是你們關屋署查核不立喔"},{"start":545.344,"end":564.254,"text":"是你們查而不立還是他的違規案件就是這麼少當然我們同仁一定是全力以赴查查所以他的案件九件十四件也好反正高雄台中關甚至零件所以整個的情形很好但最多的還是高雄跟台南沒錯如果以數據來看台中關的部分我跟委員再補充一下台中關他主要就是那個遊船"},{"start":565.715,"end":585.096,"text":"所以它的那個貿易額會比較多一點主要是郵品的金額比較高那不管嘛 郵船有可能會被弄成不知道什麼都會被洗產地嘛反正任何東西只要會被洗產地的也有可能嘛有關稅的問題嘛那我的意思就是說自由貿港就它本身的裁判案件這麼少要嘛就是關火署執行不力啊要嘛就事實上真的做的"},{"start":585.356,"end":602.801,"text":"沒有這種違規的情形嘛應該是這樣子我覺得這種一個自由貿易港這樣的經濟行為不應該被扣上這樣的帽子啊我的意思是說大家其實要理性來看這件事情那請問啊對未來這個息產地 假設金門啊我請問關無數如果金門哪一天變成國際港啊然後或者我們這個通過以後變成這個自由貿易港你們也會對金門睜一隻眼閉一隻眼嗎就讓他隨便息產地嗎還是也會一視同仁一樣會去查核啊"},{"start":614.364,"end":642.247,"text":"跟委員報告我們海關查核的依據是風險就是說高風險低風險我們有不同的一個查核方式如果在進門你不會查核嗎會不會查核也是會嘛對不對你再進門會不會查核還是你閉著眼睛多會查核啊經濟部啊經濟部現在你們所提出對不起再一下經濟部還沒問到經濟部你們有所提出的這個部長提出息產第五大策略你現在是認為這針對這個七大自由貿易港區嗎"},{"start":643.855,"end":657.682,"text":"還是針對還沒有 我們都還沒做金門港自貿港區的部分是屬於交通部所以我們可以加強做相關的宣導所以你們這個防止息產店五個策略事實上我們金門都還沒有成立嘛還不是針對金門嘛 對吧"},{"start":659.127,"end":686.963,"text":"沒有針對特別的地區對嘛好那所以這個不是針對金門但是民進黨上下把他講成金門那我想請問最重要一件事情來這個財政部部長其實最重要的不是只在廠商的這種自己的這種自律而已關務署啦關務署到時候要加強查核不要中國大陸進來要向美國的貨品要加強查核是落在海關同仁方面我覺得現在部長我想請問你覺得現在海關的能力是夠不夠啊"},{"start":688.308,"end":713.125,"text":"海關人力那很吃緊我也知道委員一直很關心我們海關人力的部分那我也請署長去盤點那看尤其這一次我們要加強查緝的需要多少人力那也希望委員給我們支持是我像你看你們基隆關一千人台中關三百多人高雄關一千人但是現在包括了這麼多事情的不管要加快行政效率或者是要加強查核我們這個支持 全力支持這個情形都是"},{"start":714.685,"end":728.952,"text":"現在高雄 不是高雄關 關五所人力就不足你們是不是應該財政部要趕快跟這個全序部要求再跟人事總書說這個員樂部要趕快增加是 已經在盤點當中這個是趁這個機會的話增加人力 增加行政效率"},{"start":730.092,"end":752.23,"text":"那個增加這個查核這個所謂席產地的這種力道違法那個嘛同時也要讓老百姓了解金門現在就是沒有這個辦法我們也不會成為所謂席產地的地方我們也當地也沒有加工廠也沒有這樣的能力啦所以請大家還是要把這個正常的這個所謂這個貿易的這個行為用正常的想法去想而不是一味的只要想要扣帽子啦好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩請財政部長還有關務署署長。"],["主席：好，請財政部長還有關務署署長。"],["陳委員玉珍：經濟部是下面要問，要準備喔！"],["主席：好。","本席宣布，12點開放在會場用餐。","請陳玉珍委員，你開始了。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：最近有個不知道要說是流行還是什麼，就是一直抹黑我們金門的議題──就是我們提案修正離島建設條例，要讓金門做為自由貿易港區。尤其是民進黨委員齊心上下，不但抹黑金門，還抹黑自由貿易港區這個詞啦！說我們金門要設自由貿易港區就是要為中國洗產地、開後門，我國到時候如果被懲罰，都是因為金門要做這些事情，也就是我們變成幫兇，帽子被扣得非常地大。","我們先來討論一下大家所說的，什麼叫「洗產地」？我想關務署署長對這個是專業的，財政部也專業，就來看一下我講這個對不對。什麼叫洗產地？自由貿易港區是不是會變成洗產地的特區？我們金門如果變成自由貿易港區，是不是會變成洗產地特區？我想，不能扣這麼大的帽子在離島身上，但是我們也還是要弄清楚什麼叫洗產地。關於洗產地，剛剛各個部會的報告也有說，是將已接近成品的貨品進口到台灣簡易加工，再把產品輸出。比如說本來是Made in China，到台灣以後簡易加工，改成Made in Taiwan，對美國來講，如果再出口到美國，就是把原來的中國製產品變成臺灣製，這個叫洗產地。第二個方式可能就是把貨品送進自由貿易港區、物流中心、保稅區，沒有做任何加工，違規改標，比如說原本上面貼的是中國製造，現在則改標成台灣製造，這叫違規改標嘛！這個定義沒有錯嘛！一是簡易加工，但是沒有那麼大的加工，只是改產地，第二就是直接違規、也就是改標啦！請問署長，這個定義對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，基本上就是將原型態的產品改標出去，另一個是透過加工之後……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就是沒有改變那麼大，只做簡易加工或直接改標、這是違規的改標，都叫洗產地行為對吧？"],["彭署長英偉：對，這兩種樣態都算。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯嘛！好。","那洗產地要有什麼樣的條件？一個地方如果要洗產地，第一要從大陸進口。如果要把中國製、大陸製產品變成台灣製，第一要先進東西嘛！進口大陸貨品嘛！所以那個地方要先進口大陸貨品。第二，要有加工廠。不是工廠，而是加工或改標籤，要有人做這個動作嘛！或是簡易加工啦！第三個是要輸往美國嘛！美國關心的是不能把別的地方來的貨變成台灣的輸過去。所以要有這3個構成要件，沒錯吧，署長？要有貨物進來、要改標或簡易加工，最後還要運到美國，這是美國關心的，叫做去美國的洗產地嘛！正確吧？"],["彭署長英偉：基本上就是這些貨物標示不實或者是未符規定標示。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，過程是這樣嘛！洗產地的意義是這樣啦！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。那我們來看所謂的自由貿易港區。台灣現在有幾處自由貿易港區，署長？"],["彭署長英偉：六港一空，有7個。"],["陳委員玉珍：不只，很多啦！你看：蘇澳港、基隆港、臺北港、桃園空港、臺中港、安平港、高雄港，還有屏東農業生技園區，這些都是自由貿易港區，一、二、三、四、五、六、七，有八個，加上生技園區啦！六港一空至少7個，屏東那個是生技園區。","至於自由貿易港區的定義，我要講一下為什麼我們金門要修離島建設條例。金門也是一個港口，為什麼不能變成自由貿易港區，關務署署長，你知道原因嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，金門因為不是國際商港……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為它不是國際商港嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：自由貿易港區要國際商港才可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為自由貿易港區定義是要在國際航空站或位於國際商港，金門港雖然跟廈門往來，但是定義上不是國際商港，沒錯吧？這是根據我們國內的法律定義嘛！如果是國際商港，我們就可以直接申請啦！也不用修改離島建設條例，什麼事情都不用做，直接申請就好，全部都按照法律嘛！對不對？但它不是國際商港。雖然賴總統認為廈門跟金門是中華人民共和國跟中華民國、一邊一國，但是兩邊往來不是國際往來，叫做小三通往來啊！所以金門的位置很……很委屈啊！一邊說我們兩邊是兩國、一邊一國，然後這種往來又不叫國際往來，而叫做小三通往來，所以我們想用國際港的身分去申請為自由貿易港區不被准許。因為我們叫小三通港，不叫國際港，所以我們才說只能修離島建設條例，以符合跟國際自由貿易港一樣的待遇嘛！只是改在離島建設條例裡面修法。如果今天就被認定是國際港，我們不用修法啊！對不對？沒錯吧？就可以直接申請嘛！如果金門的定義是國際港，是不是就可以直接申請，署長？是國際港就可以直接申請嘛！任何國際港都可以申請吧？"],["彭署長英偉：自由貿易港區設置……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果被認定為國際港啦！雖然這不是你認定，而是交通部認定，但如果被認定為國際港，就不用另外再修法，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：就是可以直接依照自貿港區設置管理條例申請。"],["陳委員玉珍：對！也就是說，如果金門被認定為國際港，就不用再修什麼離島建設條例。所以是因為現在的法律架構，我們不被認定為國際港，但是總統又說廈門跟金門兩邊是一邊一國、不同地區、不同國家、互不隸屬，我們妾身未明，變成小三通港口，所以我們才要修這個法嘛！","我們來看看現在國內自由貿易港區裡頭實際上有多少洗產地也就是這種違規行為，我有跟關務署要資料。財政部部長，你知道剛剛我們提的那些……金門還沒成立喔！光是在剛剛已經提的這些自由貿易港區中，因為違規轉運而被裁罰最多的自由貿易港區在哪裡嗎？現行最多的在哪裡，部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：高雄。"],["陳委員玉珍：在高雄對不對？沒錯啦！我給你看一下數據。金門什麼都還沒有做，就給我們扣帽子，現在高雄關──高雄關包括高雄跟臺南，高雄跟臺南才是最大的洗產地破口，這是以目前來講。高雄關：包括高雄港跟安平港因為違規轉運而被裁罰的案件，這麼多年來，最多案件的是112年的48件，這是關務署給我們的資料喔！去（113）年是37件。其他關呢？臺中關是0件，這是指自由貿易港區啦！不是指所有的，只管自由貿易港區。臺中關是0件，基隆關是5年6件，高雄關48件。臺北關──就是包括航空城是5年1件，也就是相當地少。有人說是不是因為高雄港的貨運量比較大，所以比較多案件有違規情形？不對！以去年為例，高雄自由貿易港區的貨運量是101萬公噸，臺中是503噸，臺中的運量是高雄的5倍，但臺中的案件數是0，高雄的案件數是48件、是37件，我是說高雄關啦！包括安平港跟高雄港。","其實整個來講，以你們給我的資料來看，我說的只是自由貿易港區，自由貿易港區違規轉運案件相對來講數量也不多啦！數字很少，所以自由貿易港區根本不應該被扣上會變成所謂洗產地缺口這種罪名。今天先不要說金門，就算高雄、臺南或哪裡，整個違規轉運情形都很少，其他地方、自由貿易港區以外我們不知道，但至少在這裡頭，這幾年只有四十幾件，臺中甚至是0件。很多人對自由貿易港區扣上一頂帽子，指稱做為自由貿易港區就會變成違規洗產地的地方，對於在這些地區努力的商家是很不公平的，對高雄的商家、對臺南的商家也不公平。不管怎麼講，現在最多的案件也還是發生在高雄港，所以如果照民進黨的說法，現在高雄跟臺南才是最大的洗產地破口啊！如果照他們現在的原則，違規最多的不就是高雄跟臺南嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我是不是能請關務署再說明一下？"],["陳委員玉珍：這數據是我們問關務署的、是關務署提供給我們的。這是只問自由貿易港區，不問其他或全部的，只問自由貿易港區，因為我們今天只提自由貿易港區嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：剛剛委員講的37件應該是罰鍰金額37萬元。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是！"],["彭署長英偉：113年高雄關是9件，112年是……"],["陳委員玉珍：喔！對，9件跟14件啦！不管幾件，很少對不對？就是很少嘛！對不對？自由貿易港區整體違規的情形是不是相當少，如果這樣來看？一年9件，相對數量是不是很少？臺中關甚至是0件，我的意思就是自由貿易港區不應該被扣上「會洗產地」這種標籤啦！不然就是你們關務署查核不力喔！是吧？是你們查核不力還是它的違規案件就是這麼少？"],["彭署長英偉：當然我們的同仁一定是全力以赴查察違規轉運。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！所以無論案件是9件也好、14件也好，反正高雄……臺中關甚至是0件嘛！所以整個情形很少。但如果以數據來講，最多的還是高雄跟臺南沒錯嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：臺中關的部分，我再跟委員補充一下。臺中關主要就是油船啦！所以貿易額會比較多一點，主要是油品的金額比較高。"],["陳委員玉珍：不管嘛！油船不知道什麼時候也可能被洗產地，反正只要涉及關稅問題，任何東西都可能被洗產地嘛！而我的意思就是自由貿易港區本身的裁罰案件這麼少，要嘛就是關務署執行不力，要嘛就是真的沒有這種違規情形，應該是這樣。我覺得自由貿易港區這樣的經濟行為不應該被扣上這樣的帽子啦！我的意思是大家其實要理性地看待這件事情。","未來面對洗產地，我請問關務署：假設金門哪一天也變成國際港，或者通過以後變成自由貿易港區，你們會對金門睜一隻眼、閉一隻眼嗎？會讓它隨便洗產地嗎？還是也會一視同仁、一樣查核？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，海關查核的依據是風險，也就是對於高風險與低風險的有不同查核方式。"],["陳委員玉珍：也會？如果在金門，你不會查核嗎？會不會查核？也會嘛！對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：我們會針對不同廠商、針對不同貨物……"],["陳委員玉珍：你在金門會不會查核？還是你會閉著眼睛？"],["彭署長英偉：都會查核啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：都會查核嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：只要是通商口岸，我們都會……"],["陳委員玉珍：那要請經濟部上臺。請問經濟部，你們部長提出防止洗產地五大策略，你認為是針對這七大自由貿易港區嗎？還是針對我們都還沒做的金門港？"],["江次長文若：自貿港區的業務屬於交通部，我們可以加強作相關宣導。"],["陳委員玉珍：就你們防止洗產地的五個策略，既然金門基本上還沒有成立，所以不是針對金門嘛！對吧？"],["江次長文若：沒有針對特別地區。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！好，所以不是針對金門，但是民進黨上下都講成金門。","那我想請問最重要的一件事。財政部部長，其實最重要的不只在於廠商自己的自律而已啦！關務署到時候若要加強查核，比方說對於中國大陸進口、要銷往美國的貨品加強查核，這工作就落在海關同仁身上。部長，我想請問，你覺得現在海關的人力夠不夠啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：海關人力當然很吃緊。我知道委員一直很關心海關人力，我也請署長盤點，尤其針對這次我們要加強查緝的部分需要多少人力，也希望委員給我們支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：是！你看基隆關1,000人、臺中關三百多人、高雄關1,000人。現在包括這麼多事情，不管是要加快行政效率或者是要加強查核，我們全力支持，但面對這些情形，現在高雄……不是高雄關，關務署的人力就不足，你們財政部是不是應該趕快跟銓敘部要求、跟人事總處說員額要趕快增加？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，已經在盤點當中，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：趁這個機會增加人力、增加行政效率、增加查核洗產地的……"],["莊部長翠雲：力道。"],["陳委員玉珍：要查違法案件，同時也要讓老百姓了解，金門現在就是沒有自由貿易港區，不會成為洗產地的地方，當地沒有加工廠、也沒有這樣的能力啦！所以請大家對於貿易行為還是要以正常的想法去想，而不是一味只想扣帽子啦！以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝玉珍委員。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfc0bbbd9bd38ecef7b2710058b23c04f81a52cf64e50924c0eedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:53:07 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報告委員我想這樣子美國的這個客戶啊大概對高階的半導體大概美國客戶都表示大概四五成的這個用戶用量在美國所以他還是要進到美國啦還是會有這樣的一個市場這是美國會考量啦但是對我們國內的半導體業現在是"},{"start":177.839,"end":197.018,"text":"很頭痛啊我們現在最重要的是跟美國的客戶表達就是說台美是合作的夥伴讓美國的政府可以了解不是說這些東西跟一般的商品是一樣的這不一樣所以這些中間商品"},{"start":198.126,"end":213.324,"text":"要来课税其实是有它的难度但是我相信美国他们也会去计算这一点我们大概目前还不清楚他怎么来课但是我们从最近美国开始美国政府在进行国安的调查"},{"start":214.125,"end":240.56,"text":"因為他認為半導體這高階的半導體影響他的國家安全所以我們台灣這邊進入也是密切的觀察這樣的一個措施所以我們會了解這個結果以後積極的跟美國政府來協商透過這一次的這個談判我們積極跟他協商最後表達的台灣就是美國的策略夥伴"},{"start":241.3,"end":246.988,"text":"所以他在下這個關稅的時候不要只針對台灣"},{"start":249.289,"end":273.795,"text":"就是要針對台灣因為是夥伴所以要區隔所以部長我們跟美國的整個生產的鏈是很多是高度互補所以我們跟美國事實上是就從你所說的來做戰略上的夥伴這個是一個很好的一個方向所以未來的談判那麼期待會有一個好的一個結果那部長那就你的判斷從411的一個視訊會談那你覺得"},{"start":277.256,"end":291.918,"text":"台灣會跟美國還有第二波或者是第三波的一個會談嗎還是411講完後他們就已經要把它變成定見了這個國際談判國際談判不會說一次就談完不會一次談完嘛先定義我們要談什麼"},{"start":293.772,"end":318.531,"text":"所以411都主要在做定義就是定義嘛哪一些東西談哪一些東西不談好那我想部長接下來整個談判我想第一個對於產業的一個守護以及當然這是農業部的問題對於整個農業應該要台灣還是要有自己的一個守護我們台灣本土我們糧食安全的這個立場我想這個談判都是很重要的好那下一個我要問這個國發會國發會這個主委"},{"start":324.633,"end":325.034,"text":"就是說這個關稅暫停90天"},{"start":329.437,"end":353.456,"text":"那台灣現在看起來就是有一股極端效應那這個極端耶大家都要看在這三個月每個月都快出出了可能在美國那邊的客戶也說不然你剩現在10%的時間都先來那所以就變成說這個極端效應變成說現在的月出了那我擔心的是說現在出貨那三個月之後哇"},{"start":354.298,"end":381.918,"text":"沒法好處啦而且這個在過去也發生過在疫情那一段時間那個整個船運塞港的時候有一段時間大家都趕著出貨在出貨完後哇 忽然一間不管是做卡特車的啦做樓梯的 做零件的全部都說 哇 他們那裡倉庫滿滿不需要台灣的訂單那現在這一波急波效應會不會在三個月之後也發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":385.118,"end":397.305,"text":"這個是有可能的因為現在幾乎所有的產業都在趕貨但是我們希望利用這三個月的時間積極的輔導廠商進行供應鏈的移轉跟新市場的開發然後來面對將來在高速的復貨之後主委要開發新市場豈是那麼簡單三個月要請他們他們只能開始著手去努力"},{"start":412.153,"end":440.549,"text":"啊到真的接著到市場那一定就是要回來的那個都要一點時間啦所以我現在也反而就是說利用這幾個空檔往前走這段時間是極端嘛都是短期的啊那之後會變成一個空窗期在進入空窗期之後我們可以想像的可能就會衍生出這個就業的問題啊或者是工廠波瀾間變成停擺這個倒不至於喔因為這三個月會讓廠商收入的現金會"},{"start":441.71,"end":457.29,"text":"比以往高很多啦那就跟我們當年在疫情結束之後瞬間急凍了一年多大家都可以過得還不錯的原因啦那這個企業一定是看一個年度的進行角度但是我在急凍的那一年我聽到很多企業事實上他們還是有受創啊"},{"start":458.855,"end":472.339,"text":"因為有時候極端跟穩定的工作他是不一樣的另外一個事情我想也跟委員報告因為整個全球都在談判那美國第二個如果我們再回頭去看川普1.0的時候川普1.0的時候他訂出高關稅之後他會經過美國內部的一個審議期跟建議期建議出來的清單"},{"start":480.798,"end":490.635,"text":"並不最後呢他總會有一些會放寬的部分所以我們還是要等待但是那是談判的結果同時要等待這段期間的一些變化因為現在這個變化是很"},{"start":492.67,"end":496.114,"text":"幾乎每天都在變我們得去準備好我們的未來的競爭力所以未來的競爭力一定要準備這個競爭的時間會衍生一些社會問題我覺得我們國大會應該要開始去思考是 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在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關組長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們財政部理事長還有經濟部郭部長 以及國防會的劉主委劉主委各位好"},{"start":28.883,"end":55.009,"text":"次長好 部長好 主委好題目是即時應應對關稅展延的資金需求要提早佈局未來產業的有案分工來 首先請教一下次長你看看這個本來要課高關稅展延90天 結果科技業出貨潮本來爆倉 周末倉位是滿的要趕在關稅後來有可能變高前 有貨先過去有沒有看到這樣的現象 次長"},{"start":57.348,"end":73.769,"text":"除了倉位有需求之外有沒有資金的需求應該也是會有資金的需求好我們來看一下美國川普政府的超高關稅嚇倒了全國的出口業全世界出口業本來約訂單暫停結果暫緩90天現在大量訂單湧入除了原料採購才能全該"},{"start":75.103,"end":91.052,"text":"有沒有本來我們的880億是要因應那種貨出不去訂單被取消融資被斷頭那現在轉過來希望說趕快給他一點融通的資金趕快要補辦進貨出料財政部有沒有準備夏業"},{"start":93.629,"end":114.634,"text":"目前財政部有沒有針對我們各產業因為展延90天的現況而這個產業的資金需求能不能即時的到位報告委員其實我們那個所有的公股行庫實際上都有運用一些自由的資金在目前平常就在協助這些產業平常就有 這時候額外需要 我要看郭部長的臉色"},{"start":115.274,"end":130.552,"text":"看看有沒有轉好來 我們往下一頁部長其實呢 洗產地的事情我問過很多次了今天呢 我就不再贅述但是還是要來了解一下到底台灣怎麼迎來其實呢 在2018年川普1.0之前我們台灣在應對"},{"start":132.386,"end":147.114,"text":"美國的時候我們台灣會有關鍵的零組件然後在中國沿海地區有我們的相關的產業鏈供應鏈做零組件內地的便宜的勞動力來去組裝然後銷美國這是2018年前的情況但是川普1.0之後變成什麼"},{"start":149.115,"end":164.808,"text":"變成是啊如果說這些零組件呢直接從中國出去不行結果我們就有一個Plan A我們有個自貿港關鍵零組件在台灣但是不需要太多勞動力的呢零組件到台灣配上去就消美國是不是這樣這就是所謂境內關外部長是不是這樣子"},{"start":166.711,"end":191.267,"text":"是這樣的一個過去啦對對對好那另外一個模式是怎樣越南取而代之越南說我有很多的勞動力把昆山蘇州上海周邊這些電子產業的零組件送到越南來台灣把關鍵資源送過去組裝好後Plan B就到美國是也有這樣的方向過去這幾年越南走這條路嗎是是好我們看一看"},{"start":191.772,"end":214.818,"text":"那現在我們看看 自貿區可以直接進儲 不用核准 是這樣嗎自貿區目前應該是這樣好 所以你看 自貿區在2024年我們的自由港進出口破3兆2024的貨櫃破300萬那過去我們現在川普說你這個不能直接中國銷美國 所以我們在台組裝"},{"start":216.912,"end":238.331,"text":"還有呢 中轉他國直接在台灣過個水就出去那現在怎麼防止中國貨路呢是 報告委員我們大概有四點可以來這個防止第一個就是來監測進口量好 第二點那麼跟蘇美的產品做全面的勾擊對比這是第一點第二點 從嚴處罰最高罰300萬或者取消進出口商的資格"},{"start":244.156,"end":254.393,"text":"第三個我們加強反傾銷的調查我都幫你寫好了部長就這一頁我都寫好了因為你們有講過嘛我們委託方總輔導廠商局長我們來看一下桃園航空城"},{"start":258.991,"end":278.412,"text":"我們2024三兆的產值呢桃園貢獻2.4兆而且2025年還有一個台北港要個智慧車輛園區但是在2018年到2024年經濟部根據自由港的條例到歐盟到英國的美國的自行車電動輔助自行車履制輪胎圈到先核准什麼意思部長認為為什麼這樣子"},{"start":281.001,"end":295.895,"text":"因為自貿區本來不用核定的嘛但這幾個東西這些進口國認為有息產地嘛所以要先核准嘛 是不是這樣是啊 確保台灣有這個產地所以說自貿區要防止息產地在川普2.0之後也行不通了那麼"},{"start":296.636,"end":325.561,"text":"越南的部分呢也被美國盯得很死也行不通了所以好像有一個說法譬如說另外找個像菲律賓這樣的國家他有很多的勞動力把一些原來台灣消美的零組件呢產業鏈移到菲律賓台灣的關鍵零組件到那邊去這個是不是就是你所謂的境外關內的一種模式是的是的很好所以呢我們往下看所以未來境外關內可能是應對所謂的息產地自貿區的模式不可行的時候來接下來我們看劉主委劉主委"},{"start":326.38,"end":342.174,"text":"台灣現在有一個國家火箭發射基地了嘛是不是對現在選定九棚嘛目前在美國SPAC-X有四個發射基地SPAC-X一次可以發射143顆低軌道的通訊衛星那麼未來有沒有可能台灣也可以來協助像"},{"start":343.275,"end":366.683,"text":"團客的大巴士有SPEX但是呢兩三顆的小型的即時的送到我們台灣來發射就是有沒有這個可能呢台灣可不可以提供低軌道通訊衛星的運載服務有沒有可能從產業的發展來講這是有可能的有可能的我們可以跟美國合作團客你處理散客我來接對不對那台灣需要什麼需要運載火箭台灣現在有辦法獨立完成運載火箭的裝備嗎我們預計2027年會自己有對"},{"start":369.884,"end":393.749,"text":"但是我們可不可能跟美國分工以前我們跟美國買波音航空客我來載但是飛機你來賣所以我們跟美國買飛機有沒有可能未來我們跟美國買火箭或買火箭當中的比較高關鍵的像火箭引擎那我們台灣組裝後來發射有沒有可能這是有可能的是的所以我要跟郭部長跟主委說的就是說其實未來我們的產業除了"},{"start":394.749,"end":418.202,"text":"自貿區不可行 防止稀產地要努力 跟美國的銷售之外我們不要老是只是想賣東西給他 想辦法也跟他買東西來 我們看看川普說什麼 大債工業化 請問劉主委川普的債工業化是把鋼鐵拉回來美國 造船又拉回來美國運動鞋 球拍 紡織品 筆電 自行車都美國自己製造嗎汽車都自己製造 是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":419.876,"end":442.081,"text":"我個人比較看法是說它應該整合對它友好的國家形成一個新的供應鏈機器所以它的再工業化不是重度最快效率最高是再分工化對不對所以中高階的美國留著中低階的排除中國後交給有岸來外包像無人機台灣現在死神這個等級的無人機美國不會交給別國生產"},{"start":445.868,"end":471.338,"text":"但是像中國的大疆那種低中低階的無人機會不會希望台灣結合以色列跟東歐的光電球我們來生產會不會這是有可能的因為我們正在復建這樣的能力是的而且我們已經有代工廠商已經產生了已經產生了嘛所以全球的產業重組的時候呢我們希望我們國發會要瞄準未來的產業需求不是只在現有的產業格局下跟美國去討論說有沒有中國成分"},{"start":471.818,"end":483.945,"text":"而是希望找到他的美國的再分工當中台灣居一個有利的位置跟美國分工合作你同意嗎同意好所以這時候的資金人力土地跟公共建設需要來最後三個問題分別請第一個對不起國發會"},{"start":486.949,"end":514.924,"text":"是不是已經評估未來的產業需求拟據了產業在全球化市佔據所需要的這四缺的這些狀況而且有解決方案國發委員會開始準備了這個有的有的好最後來請財政部財政部次長因應台灣產業受美國對等關稅影響短期資金需求提出一個方案報告可以嗎可以沒問題好請經濟部對於在中國的台商撤出中國後進駐境外關內園區的輔導方案可以提出一個說明嗎報告"},{"start":516.378,"end":537.58,"text":"這個境外觀念是您的嘛可以可以您的倡議嘛往往深得您的倡議的精髓來幫忙講這個事情最後請國發委研議全國去中供應鏈的情況之下如何提高台灣的產業全球市佔率和解決到所需要的資金人才土地跟供應建設的方案提出來一個報告跟說明可以跟本席嗎這可以啊好 謝謝主委 謝謝次長 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時44分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請財政部李次長，還有經濟部郭部長，以及國發會劉主委。"],["主席：李次長，郭部長，劉主委。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好、部長好、主委好。題目是「及時應對關稅展延資金需求，提早布局未來產業友岸分工」，首先請教次長，你看看，本來要課高關稅，現在展延90天，結果科技業出貨潮，還爆艙，週末艙位是滿的，要趕在關稅可能變高前有貨先過去，有沒有看到這樣的現象？次長。"],["李次長慶華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了艙位有需求之外，有沒有資金的需求？"],["李次長慶華：應該也是會有資金的需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，美國川普政府的超高關稅嚇倒了全世界出口業，本來以為訂單暫停，結果暫緩90天，現在大量訂單湧入，除了原料採購，還要產能全開。本來我們的880億是要因應那種貨出不去、訂單被取消、融資被斷頭，現在轉過來希望趕快給他融通的資金，要趕快補辦進貨出料，財政部有沒有準備？目前財政部有沒有掌握各產業展延90天的現況？各產業的資金需求能不能及時到位？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們所有的公股行庫事實上都有運用一些自有的資金，平常就在協助這些產業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：平常就有，這時候有額外需求，我要看郭部長的眼色，看看有沒有轉好。","部長，其實洗產地的事情我問過很多次了，今天就不再贅述，但是還是要來瞭解一下到底臺灣怎麼因應。其實在2018年川普1.0之前，我們臺灣在應對美國的時候，臺灣會有關鍵的零組件，然後在中國沿海地區有我們相關的產業鏈、供應鏈做零組件，內地便宜的勞動力去組裝，然後銷美國，這是2018年前的情況。","但是川普1.0之後變成什麼？變成說這些零組件直接從中國出去不行，結果我們就有一個plan 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謝謝主席請部長請部長委員好是 部長好 部長您在上週4月10號 您表示說對於擴大國安基金的擴編財政部已經做過評估適當時機也會處理所以請問部長您是否認同要朝這個國安基金要朝擴編的方向來進行"},{"start":34.23,"end":49.029,"text":"委員報告跟委員報告我們其實評估我們大概有相關幾個重點第一個就是說目前來說台股的市值是72兆跟在89年成立之後已經達到有9倍之多了第二個就是說外資的"},{"start":50.95,"end":74.102,"text":"比例來說佔了四成所以整個來說國安基金是不是要做把它的規模擴大這個部分一直在我們的評估當中那另外就是說雖然目前是五千億那兩千億是以我們的股權去做持押以後借款那三千億是有關基金的部分那我們其實操盤手每次都大概都在這個"},{"start":75.857,"end":98.528,"text":"2000億的這個範圍內 但世大基金本身他們也有一些用途很難懂所以這個部分我們都是在我們評估的項目之中所以你聽你這樣講你的意思就是說是朝擴編的方向來進行嘛因為市值已經比過去這個股市的市值大那麼多了高達70幾兆了嘛所以這國安基金的規模有擴編的必要嗎"},{"start":100.385,"end":117.581,"text":"這個部分一直都是在我們幾個數字裡面在評估的項目中來部長我們看一下這個我們的PPT裡面所顯示的其實我們的國安基金從2000年開始2000年的10月我們最大的一個投入的金額是1227億到了2008年金融海嘯我們投資是600億"},{"start":123.846,"end":141.868,"text":"到了前年,2022年的烏俄戰爭,投入的金額是545億,那金額大概就是說也沒有超過2000億,最多就是1227億,但是陳榮林剛才講的,其實我們不是以說我們投入的金額來做評估,"},{"start":142.729,"end":160.9,"text":"評估是整個因為現在市值已經股市的市值已經那麼大了比過去大很多所以到底國安基金面對這一次的川普的政策的不確定性對於關稅對等關稅做出這麼一下子這個招令細改"},{"start":161.58,"end":186.007,"text":"這樣子造成全國世界各地的一個整個金融其實就講金融海嘯也不為過了所以在這種情況之下當然會影響我們的股市還有很多我們的進出口產業所以我們的尤其股市我們要如何的讓我們的股市能夠穩定這一點可能國安基金投入的一個護盤的一個金額未來會有充滿很大的一個變數"},{"start":187.868,"end":194.992,"text":"所以我個人是認為說整個如果國安基金的一個擴大可能有它的必要性部長你贊同嗎謝謝委員的這樣的一個方向我想是因為"},{"start":200.954,"end":213.041,"text":"國安基金的目的就是在穩定投資人的一個信心維護這個金融資本市場的一個穩定所以部長你剛才也認為說適當時機因為你過去講適當時機你就要去這個來擴大那你所謂的適當時機是什麼時候我們都還需要再做評估謝謝委員"},{"start":222.433,"end":222.953,"text":"謝謝委員 我想我們這個部分會再積極的處理"},{"start":252.024,"end":278.227,"text":"部長我要告訴你川普給我們的時間只有90天在這90天之內充滿變數那您上週也回答說適當時機你們會提出整個這個國安基金擴編這樣子的一個方向政策方向的一個評估所以你現在要很具體告訴我啊在這90天之內有沒有可能國安基金你會做擴編"},{"start":280.56,"end":304.271,"text":"現在破冰要經過管理業條例的修正就是我們國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例要做修正所以我的意思你這個條例什麼時候可以提出來還是跟委員報告這個部分我們還是會審視的評估部長不能太久啊"},{"start":305.31,"end":312.486,"text":"你這個還是要你要加緊積極加緊腳步啊好謝謝要更積極一點好不好OK好"},{"start":314.943,"end":335.839,"text":"那另外這個對於這個今天農業部的今天的專報提到說需要有效的防堵中國大陸的大蒜還有香菇經由周邊國家進口到台灣並要求財政部關務署依據海關認定進口貨物原產地的作業要點規定需逐批的來查驗"},{"start":337.403,"end":349.418,"text":"那再含送到農業部雜糧蔬菜特措協助鑑定小組來協助鑑定原產地我想這個農業部你不用上來因為我要問關務署那個關務署啊"},{"start":353.066,"end":369.962,"text":"我在3月20號的時候就已經針對我這個有工農跟我陳情說從金門海關可以放行攜帶3公斤的一個超過我們規定的1公斤規定這樣的一個情況會影響我們這個工農的權益"},{"start":376.969,"end":406.173,"text":"那當時我要求關務署你應該就是要在每個月把你們查緝的結果做成報告來提供給我們財委會還有本席來做一個這個了解那今天農業部我們看看在報告裡面就剛有提到這個問題了對於香菇的問題怕有息產力的問題所以今天3月20到今天4月20忙到了本席想請教我們關務署你的報告什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":407.751,"end":429.645,"text":"我們這個絕對會遵照委員的指示啦會盡快提那個報告署長剩沒幾天欸到現在還沒有做出來啊我們再盤點一下好不好對4月20你就要做出來所以這個議題就代表說我過去我所關心的確實我們怕有這個有稀產地的一個問題嘛"},{"start":431.006,"end":454.619,"text":"農業部也有提出相關的一個同樣的一個意見跟看法所以關務署你要加強查緝這應該的謝謝再請教部長賴總統他講說我們未來國家的投資將積極的拖中入北往拖中入北的方向來前進部長你知道什麼叫拖中入北嗎"},{"start":457.072,"end":483.082,"text":"這個部分可能就是對中國大陸這個部分逐漸的不在乎入北是包含哪些經濟體所謂的入北是包含哪些區域的經濟體區域的部分那當然就是北半球的部分嘛 對好 那好 就北半球的部分嘛部長 目前我們的泛工股銀行在中國大陸的投資的總加數是多少"},{"start":484.616,"end":499.085,"text":"加速的部分就是我們公股行庫在中國大陸它有涉相關的分行或者是紙行全部都有全部都有八大公股銀行都有那加速的部分我們是不是會後再提供給委員"},{"start":500.666,"end":514.805,"text":"所以部長你覺得說如果托中入北這樣的政策是否就是表示說將來這些飯工股的銀行也必須完全配合我們政府的政策托中的一個政策撤出在中國大陸的投資"},{"start":516.589,"end":527.277,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們的供股行庫這幾年來對於在中國大陸的曝險情形都一直逐漸的下降以111年來說是2,601億,那到114年的2月已經只有1,462億,大概的%數是7%"},{"start":536.38,"end":560.821,"text":"它已經逐漸降低但是我們的供果航庫基本上是服務我們的台商服務我們台商它當然會隨著有關廠業的有關供應鏈的一些調整來去調整它的佈局所以這樣一個拖中入北的政策是否會影響說我們台商在這個大陸的一個權益大陸台商還有我們販工部銀行在經營上會不會有什麼風險"},{"start":564.273,"end":583.553,"text":"大陸地區的台商在經營上尤其遇到目前來說美國對中國大陸的部分是課高關稅那我想在台商的部分他們可能會有一些因應的部分那經濟部也在協助如果台商這個部分的一個需求或者回台投資或者轉移生產基金等等都會做一些調整"},{"start":588.057,"end":609.544,"text":"譬如說在那邊台商全部如果說你講的都要去脫中要入北那這放公股它的獲利會不會就會受影響公股行庫其實跟剛剛委員報告它在中國道路的破險已經逐漸下降目前大概只有百分之七非常的低跟最早的時候曾經到高達百分之十四已經逐漸降低嘛"},{"start":609.997,"end":622.468,"text":"那它主要是服務還是我們的台商為主我再利用幾秒鐘所以你認為偷中入本的政策是可行的嗎這個部分是一個國家的一個大方向是 好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時41分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長好。部長，您在上週4月10號表示對於擴大國安基金的擴編，財政部已經做過評估，適當時機也會處理，所以請問部長，您是否認同國安基金要朝擴編的方向來進行？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們大概有相關幾個重點。第一個，目前臺股市值是72兆，跟在89年成立的時候已經達到有九倍之多了；第二個，外資的比例占了四成，所以整個來說，國安基金是不是要擴大規模，這個部分一直在我們的評估當中。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外雖然目前是5,000億，其中2,000億是以我們的股權作質押進行借款；3,000億是有關基金的部分，其實操盤手每次大概都在2,000億的範圍內。當然四大基金本身也有一些用途很難動，所以這個部分都是在我們評估的項目之中。"],["林委員思銘：所以聽你這樣講，意思是朝擴編的方向來進行，因為市值已經比過去股市的市值大那麼多了，高達七十幾兆了，所以國安基金的規模有擴編的必要嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分一直都在我們幾個數字之評估項目之中。"],["林委員思銘：部長，其實國安基金從2000年10月開始，我們最大的投入金額是1,227億；到了2008年金融海嘯我們投資600億；到了前（2022）年烏俄戰爭投入金額545億。金額大概也沒有超過2,000億，最多就是1,227億。但是誠如您剛剛講的，其實我們不是以投入的金額來做評估，因為現在股市的市值已經那麼大了，比過去大很多。所以到底國安基金面對這一次川普政策的不確定性，對於對等關稅做出一下子朝令夕改，造成全國、世界各地其實講金融海嘯也不為過，所以在這種情況之下，當然會影響我們的股市，還有很多進出口產業，尤其我們要如何讓股市能夠穩定？可能國安基金投入護盤的金額，未來會充滿很大的變數。所以我個人認為，國安基金的擴大可能有它的必要性。部長，你贊同嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員給的方向，我想因為國安基金的目的就是在穩定投資人的信心，維護金融、資本市場的穩定。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以部長，你剛剛也認為適當時機，因為你過去講適當時機就要來擴大，你所謂的適當時機是什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想我們都還需要再做評估，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：還要再做評估！我接下來就想問你，因為你講適當時機就會去做擴編，然後你要做積極的評估。評估到今天為止，你可不可以有一個具體的答案？現在川普這樣的政策之下，你就要趕快做評估了，你不能還拖，你現在跟我講你還在評估，評估到什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，這個部分我們會再積極的處理。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我要告訴你，川普給我們的時間只有90天，在這90天之內充滿變數，您上次也回答適當時機會提出整個國安基金擴編之政策方向的評估。所以你現在要很具體告訴我，在這90天之內有沒有可能你會做國安基金的擴編？"],["莊部長翠雲：擴編要經過條例的修正……"],["林委員思銘：要經過條例的修正，就是國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例要做修正。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以我的意思是這個條例什麼時候可以提出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個部分我們還是會審慎的評估。"],["林委員思銘：部長，不能太久啊！你要積極加緊腳步。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：對啊！要更積極一點。","另外，今天農業部的專報有提到，需要有效地防堵中國大陸的大蒜、香菇經由周邊國家進口到台灣，並要求財政部關務署依據海關認定進口貨物原產地作業要點規定須逐批來查驗，再函送到農業部雜糧蔬菜特作協助鑑定小組來協助鑑定原產地。關務署署長，3月20號有菇農跟我陳情說，從金門海關可以放行攜帶3公斤，超過我們規定1公斤的情況，會影響菇農的權益。當時我要求關務署應該要在每個月把你們查緝的結果做成報告，提供給財委會還有本席來做了解。今天看農業部的報告裡面就有提到對於香菇怕有洗產地的問題，所以3月20日到今天，4月20日馬上要到了，本席想請教關務署，你的報告什麼時候可以出來？"],["彭署長英偉：委員，我們絕對會遵照委員的指示，會儘快提那個報告。"],["林委員思銘：署長，剩沒幾天，到現在還沒有做出來啊？"],["彭署長英偉：我們再盤點一下，好不好？"],["林委員思銘：對，4月20日要做出來。"],["彭署長英偉：這一定會做的。"],["林委員思銘：所以這個議題就代表我過去所關心的，確實我們怕有洗產地的問題，農業部也有提出同樣的意見跟看法，所以關務署要加強查緝啦！"],["彭署長英偉：是，這應該的。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝。再請教部長，賴總統講未來國家的投資將積極地往脫中入北的方向前進。部長，你知道什麼叫脫中入北嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：可能就是對中國大陸逐漸地不再做……就是依賴性下降……"],["林委員思銘：入北是包含哪些區域的經濟體？"],["莊部長翠雲：區域的部分當然就是北半球的部分。"],["林委員思銘：好，就是北半球的部分。部長，目前我們泛公股銀行在中國大陸的投資總家數是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：家數的部分，就是我們公股行庫在中國大陸都有設相關的分行或子行。"],["林委員思銘：全部都有？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，全部都有。"],["林委員思銘：八大公股銀行都有泛公股？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，家數的部分，是不是容我們會後再提供給委員？"],["林委員思銘：好。","部長，如果用脫中入北這樣的政策，你覺得是否就表示將來這些泛公股銀行也必須完全配合政府的政策、也就是脫中政策，撤出在中國大陸的投資？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，其實公股行庫這幾年來對於中國大陸的曝險情形都一直、逐漸地下降，以111年來說是2,601億元，到了114年2月已經只有1,462億元，%數大概是7%，逐漸降低。但是公股行庫基本上是服務臺商，當然會隨著有關產業、供應鏈的調整來調整其布局。"],["林委員思銘：所以脫中入北這樣的政策是否會影響臺商在大陸的權益？"],["莊部長翠雲：大陸臺商……"],["林委員思銘：還有，泛公股銀行在經營上會不會有什麼風險？"],["莊部長翠雲：大陸地區臺商在經營上……尤其在目前來說，遇到美國對中國大陸課高關稅，我想，臺商可能會有一些因應。經濟部也在協助臺商這部分的需求，或者回臺投資、或者轉移生產基地等等，都會做些調整。"],["林委員思銘：所以對泛公股行庫的風險、影響呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於風險、影響，剛剛跟委員……"],["林委員思銘：如果在那邊的臺商如你講的全部都要脫中、入北，那對泛公股銀行來說，獲利會不會就受到影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實如同剛剛跟委員報告的，公股行庫在中國大陸的曝險已經逐年下降，目前大概只有7%，非常地低，跟最早曾經高達14%相比，已經逐漸降低了嘛！且它主要服務的還是以臺商為主。"],["林委員思銘：好。","我大概再用幾秒鐘。部長，所以你認為脫中入北的政策是可行的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是國家的大方向。"],["林委員思銘：是喔？好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝思銘。","接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df4cc21cbfba9b3026b2710058b23c04f8ebda33721556222a939d2a991c27a3a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:35:20 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因為這個第一個談判是在談判決定第二次談判的時候要談什麼它裡面的重點是什麼那有沒有第二次的談判的範圍大概是在哪裡呢就是剛才所講的那裡面的題目"},{"start":184.605,"end":212.891,"text":"所以是跟第一次談的應該會更具體更聚焦才對啊對啊是更具體更聚焦只是我們那個是在進行中的事情好那我就問說這個有關半導體跟藥品因為現在這個美國他們認為說這個是屬於這個有關國安的部分那他們有可能會再課個關稅但是不論是半導體或是藥品對我們來講都相當的重要那尤其是半導體的部分的話那我想請教一下部長就半導體這部分的話跟美方"},{"start":213.57,"end":240.204,"text":"談判的這個情況是怎麼樣現在還沒有進入談這個部分美國他必須要針對這個因為對美國來講半導體是一個非常重要特別是先進半導體這屬於他國安的問題所以美國在跟我們談之前他現在正在做一波國安的調查所以我們政府的立場就是密切的觀察"},{"start":241.824,"end":262.615,"text":"這個調查到目前到結果會怎麼樣那對我們來講我們也了解國內的半導體廠商了解他們的狀況以後我們會積極的跟美國的政府來協商因為畢竟台灣的半導體跟美國的業者彼此的關係是非常緊密的我想就您所知道的"},{"start":263.115,"end":276.265,"text":"比如說昨天這個AMD他們來台灣跟我們的供應鏈在開會在談事情也就是說大家很清楚AMD是Fabless的公司所有的供應鏈都是由台灣這邊來製造來組裝的"},{"start":280.448,"end":294.739,"text":"所以這個地方因為我們做完的東西要回到美國對他來講所有的稅對他來講都是他要付的問題不是我們付所以台灣跟美國來講在半導體這個領域裡面是完全的策略夥伴"},{"start":296.431,"end":323.556,"text":"所以不是只有我們關心他是user所以美國的七大科技產業幾乎都把製造圍給台灣所以這個命題來講其實對我們台灣來講對客人美國的客人更是非常的重大我知道所以我相信這個美國政府他也會考慮這樣的一個狀況大概半導體如果以美國政府的考量那50%世界的市場都是在美國"},{"start":324.758,"end":334.743,"text":"那你們有做過模擬關稅就像之前的關稅我們有模擬就是說大概幾%到幾%那有關於半導體的關稅你們有個模擬大概會落在多少到多少之間嗎"},{"start":336.29,"end":352.344,"text":"這個我想這個要由這個美國那一方面來提出來他們當然會提出來 因為他現在在做調查嘛 對不對那我們這邊應該有因應嘛 就像是之前就是說這個4月2號之前我們也是做這個關稅的模擬那現在沒想到說一下子課到32%當然後來還有時候調整了 現在先10%那我的意思是說 我們經濟部有沒有對這個半導體的這個關稅"},{"start":360.051,"end":387.062,"text":"因為這裡面大概我們會當然會有一些模擬就是理性的模擬會怎麼樣做那非理性的模擬又會怎麼做但是超過這兩個範圍的話我們就很難去把握不過我們現在的策略上面就是希望推動國內的業者跟美國的業者共同"},{"start":388.629,"end":401.009,"text":"來關心這個命題然後希望也就是說不是只有我們單方面的就是我們也希望說我們也跟美方的業者來講因為最終他們產品是由他們來做的"},{"start":401.963,"end":426.243,"text":"那是不是也透過他們來希望讓美國的這個不管是貿易部或是他們的這個談判單位能夠就關稅這方面一起來合作來做一個管控美國他會針對半導體跟藥品這個命題對世界丟出一個他想要談的關稅就像之前的這個鋼跟鋁這樣一樣"},{"start":429.145,"end":456.356,"text":"然後在各個國家來跟他談這個是談判的一個手法基本上我們會爭取讓我們台灣的廠商具有競爭力的關稅我們要求它是在一個立足點是一個非常平等的具有競爭力的關稅這個是我們跟美國的這些客戶共同努力的一個方向那我們有跟台積電有談過了嗎"},{"start":458.359,"end":468.632,"text":"我們跟台積電台積電是一個Fabless的公司它並不是一個品牌公司對 我說有跟我是說有跟台積電提過說未來半導體的關稅"},{"start":470.538,"end":495.107,"text":"他們有沒有一個範圍我們其實跟委員報告我們其實2024年輸到美國的被認定這個半導體只有74億的美金啊然後占全球出口量只有4.6%所以很難這樣去定義好那所以你的意思是說我們要等這一個川普那邊宣布了對半導體的關稅是多少之後我們再來去跟他們談嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":495.967,"end":512.228,"text":"沒有這是我們現在大家在努力嘛大家在努力美國的客戶他們會直接跟美國的政府去反應嘛台灣這邊我們不斷的這個也是準備讓談判小組有更豐富的這些資訊嘛那將來在談判的時候可以拿出來好OK好謝謝部長謝謝主席好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時35分）謝謝主席，我們請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。辛苦了！我記得我們是在上個禮拜五（4月11日）透過視訊的方式跟美國進行有關關稅的談判，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["李委員坤城：美方談判大概的層級方便透露嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是談判委員。"],["李委員坤城：那你知不知道談判的內容？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我們談判的內容第一個是談對等關稅；第二個是非關稅貿易障礙；第三個是出口管制，以上這三個命題。"],["李委員坤城：這三個議題本來就是我們所關心的，我的意思是說，跟美方談完之後，我們有沒有一些政策要去做調整？"],["郭部長智輝：到目前為止，我們沒有收到談判小組的一些需求。"],["李委員坤城：可是已經差不多一個禮拜的時間了，就是說談完之後，還沒有說……目前不論是總統府或是行政院，關於這次關稅的一些政策，因為有談判之後，我們有哪些需要做調整、有哪些不足的或者有哪些是下一回合再繼續跟他們談的內容？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，談判進行中有很多不便在這裡報告的地方。"],["李委員坤城：我知道，但是就我剛剛所提到的，有沒有方便可以提供的訊息，也讓我們的業者能夠安心？"],["郭部長智輝：大家可以安心啦！我想總統跟院長都曾經在4月12號跟大家報告過了，談判的過程非常順暢，大概沒有什麼太大的問題。"],["李委員坤城：我可以問一下談判時間大概多久嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：談判的時間多久，我其實也沒有掌握。"],["李委員坤城：你都沒有像我一樣去關心一下那一天的視訊談判大概時間有多久、有關經濟部的內容大概是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都分工合作，我想談判小組若需要我們的資料support，我們都會來準備，是這樣子。"],["李委員坤城：好。半導體的部分有談到嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我到目前為止沒有收到談判小組的指示。"],["李委員坤城：預期會不會有第二輪的談判？"],["郭部長智輝：當然會有，因為第一個談判是在談判、決定第二次談判的時候要談什麼、裡面的重點是什麼。"],["李委員坤城：第二次談判的範圍大概是在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：就是剛才所講的，裡面……"],["李委員坤城：那不就是第一次嗎？所以第二次跟第一次談的……應該會更具體、更聚焦才對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！是更具體、更聚焦，只是那個是在進行中的事情。"],["李委員坤城：好。有關半導體跟藥品，因為現在美國他們認為這個是屬於有關國安的部分，他們有可能會再課關稅，但是不論是半導體或是藥品，對我們來講都相當重要，尤其是半導體的部分。我想請教一下部長，就半導體這部分，跟美方談判的情況是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：現在還沒有進入談這個部分。"],["李委員坤城：還沒有進入談這個部分？但是它有可能……"],["郭部長智輝：因為半導體課稅，美國必須針對這個……因為對美國來講，半導體是非常重要的，特別是先進半導體，它是屬於國安的問題，所以美國在跟我們談之前，現在正在做一波國安的調查。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們政府的立場就是密切的觀察這個調查到目前或結果會怎麼樣，對我們來講，我們也了解國內的半導體廠商，了解他們的狀況以後，我們會積極地跟美國的政府來協商，因為畢竟臺灣的半導體跟美國的業者彼此的關係是非常緊密的。我想就您所知道的，譬如說，昨天AMD他們來臺灣，跟我們的供應鏈在開會、在談事情，也就是說大家很清楚，AMD是fabless的公司，所有的供應鏈都是由臺灣這邊來製造組裝的，因為我們做完的東西要回到美國，對它來講，所有的稅都是它要付的問題，不是我們付嘛！"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以臺灣跟美國在半導體這個領域裡面完全是策略夥伴，稅不是只有我們關心啊！它是user，美國的七大科技產業幾乎都把製造委給臺灣，所以這一個命題對我們臺灣來講，對美國的客人更是非常的重大。"],["李委員坤城：我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我相信美國政府它也會考慮這樣的狀況，如果以美國政府的考量，大概半導體50%世界的市場都是在美國。"],["李委員坤城：那你們有做過模擬，就像之前的關稅我們有模擬大概幾%到幾%，有關於半導體的關稅你們有沒有模擬大概會落在多少到多少之間？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我想要由美國那一方面來提出，它……"],["李委員坤城：對，他們當然會提出來，因為它現在就在做調查嘛！對不對？那我們這邊應該要有因應，就像4月2日之前我們也是做關稅的模擬，現在沒想到一下子課到32%，當然後來它也做調整了，現在先10%，我的意思是說，經濟部有沒有對半導體的關稅……"],["郭部長智輝：這裡面我們當然會有一些模擬，就是理性的模擬會怎麼樣做，非理性的模擬又會怎麼做，但是超過這兩個範圍的話我們就很難去把握，不過我相信……"],["李委員坤城：那現在範圍咧？理性、非理性咧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在的策略上面是希望推動國內的業者和美國的業者共同來關心這個命題，然後能夠影響……"],["李委員坤城：好，所以部長你的意思是說，不是只有我們單方面的，我們也希望跟美方的業者來講，因為最後產品是由他們來做，那麼是不是也透過他們，希望讓美國不管是貿易部或是談判單位能夠就關稅這方面一起來合作，來做一個管控？"],["郭部長智輝：美國會針對半導體跟藥品這個命題，對世界丟出一個它想要談的關稅啦！就像之前的鋼和鋁一樣，然後各個國家再來跟它談，這是它談判的一個手法。基本上我們會爭取讓臺灣的廠商具有競爭力的關稅，我們要求它是一個立足點非常平等的、具有競爭力的關稅，這是我們和美國這些客戶共同努力的方向。"],["李委員坤城：那你們有跟台積電談過了嗎？你們跟台積電。"],["郭部長智輝：台積電是一個foundry的公司，它並不是一個品牌公司。"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說有跟台積電提過未來半導體的關稅，他們有沒有一個範圍？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我們其實2024年輸到美國的，被認定半導體只有74億美金，占全球出口量只有4.6%，所以很難這樣去定義。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以你的意思是說，我們要等川普那邊宣布了對半導體的關稅是多少之後，我們再去跟他們談嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，現在大家在努力嘛！大家在努力，美國的客戶他們會直接向美國政府去反映，臺灣這邊我們也是不斷地準備，讓談判小組有更豐富的資訊，將來在談判的時候可以拿出來。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請鍾佳濱委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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部長好 次長還有關務署署長我想川普提出的對等關稅已經造成了全球的非常重大的影響當然他的目的是為了重塑全球產業鏈然後美國優先但是目的其實看起來只有一個就是防堵中國"},{"start":41.071,"end":66.06,"text":"到现在为止大概防堵中国是他最终的目的那目前为止看到越南也开始担心洗产地的问题那表示说洗产地的部分在今天的专案报告里面我们也希望看到比较具体尤其是在4月4号的时候行政院经贸办当时杨哲宁的简报说低价产品洗产地违规转运是美国计算对等关税的原因是这样吗"},{"start":68.786,"end":73.089,"text":"目前還不知道次長你是我們負責談判的副代表所以您在這個過程裡面美國有把低價產品及產地作為對台灣對等關稅32%的主要原因嗎"},{"start":95.626,"end":121.641,"text":"就如同剛才部長所講的未來要跟美國協商的時候才會知道但是目前白宮官方目前沒有把洗產地成為台灣32%的主要原因吧目前還沒有吧沒看到我們找不到看他有公布那個公式就是分子分母除下來以後再乘以50%所以我們是32%對但是洗產地並不是我們的主要原因嗎"},{"start":123.022,"end":138.461,"text":"不管是不是主要原因,洗慘地這個事情我們一定要阻絕的洗慘地就是它要關稅不讓任何可能透過轉運的方式然後規避掉美國的高額關稅剛剛講嘛,因為它要防堵中國嘛"},{"start":140.916,"end":159.869,"text":"好 所以經濟部財政部跟工會我們對原產地有一定的嚴謹的流程那主要是要加工在地加工還要有實質轉型然後目前為止要超過35%才可以算是所謂的產地可是大部分很多35%的規範目前為止對美國來說它有沒有這麼明確的規範經濟部"},{"start":168.457,"end":179.347,"text":"分兩點跟委員說明很清楚哪一些東西是叫做實質轉型哪一些東西才是真正所謂的算是原產地"},{"start":180.56,"end":207.509,"text":"如果按照美國的規定美國是由海關來認定它的原產地現在的問題就是它就變成是有一些是有規範有一些是個案認定甚至有一些可能是特殊商品比如說自行車車架的那個地方才叫做原產地太陽能發電機組的那個太陽能電池的原產地才叫做原產地所以這些東西都還不清楚是嗎"},{"start":208.476,"end":233.032,"text":"根據美國的最終實質轉型規定他會看幾點第一個就是名稱特性還有使用的方法是否有改變此外呢他也會去看單一這個產品他加工的複雜程度所以兩位首長現在台灣的廠商最困擾的其實就是這些也就是說從美國來說他107年駐美代表處我們經濟組的報告是說美國政府針對FTA的協定國家會"},{"start":238.656,"end":265.75,"text":"約定原產地的證明格式但是原產地證明目前是僅供參考看海關的認定那最重要的是有些特殊商品還有特殊的規定也就是說這些東西目前為止並沒有百分之百明文或很明確的內容這就是台灣跟美國要談判的相關的細節對吧接下來的原產地可能也是要成為你們談判的內容吧"},{"start":266.89,"end":284.57,"text":"我們未來要談什麼話要看談判的相關的所以今天到底是不是原產地的部分我看到財政部的報告是事前預防事中嚴查事後嚴懲對吧在財政部報告裡面確實是這樣事前怎麼樣預防"},{"start":288.496,"end":303.62,"text":"第一个他就是说他必须拿到原产地证明或输出许可我们才可以放行所以我们台湾有能力去预防别人到台湾来洗产地的方式目前有什么样的比较具体的做法吗"},{"start":304.951,"end":328.709,"text":"具體的做法就如同我們報道 房屋署應該都有嘛 對不對那未來我們還會持續的精進那當然剛剛委員所提到就是說我們這邊有息產地的一個相關規範原產地證明的一個文件我們109年就針對貿易法修正了嘛就是怕人家來息產地然後我們看到的我現在調出來的資料"},{"start":330.55,"end":357.54,"text":"財政部只管經貿相關的這個經貿區我們目前為止貿易法實施以後我查到了五年來罰了40件只罰了140萬也就是說針對息產地的部分目前為止財政部自由貿易港區管理的部分只有40件140萬經濟部你們有針對貿易法的相關裁罰有做出開罰或者是相關的資料嗎"},{"start":358.553,"end":369.76,"text":"自貿港區是由財政部依據我們經濟部是在自貿港區以外的你們這幾年有查過多少嗎總共查了744件如果說有財閥的話是200多件財閥的金額是2800多萬所以稀產地還是一個需要"},{"start":383.325,"end":406.948,"text":"如果我們要跟美國好好談判 這個部分可能執行方面也是要做嚴查好 適中嚴查 現在有一個可能性最近看到的是美國他把所謂的小額的包裹的800塊美金的取消那顯然應該會有很多原來要寄到美國的包裹會透過其他的方式來去規避所謂的相關的高額關稅"},{"start":408.109,"end":436.566,"text":"那台湾因为我们比较优惠我们五万块以下是检疫申报然后两千块以下是免税那这个有没有可能成为将来现在大家担心的是五月份开始这个一取消之后中国大陆的相关的化整为零的这些所谓领土建会不会透过小额包裹的方式转运到台湾在借由台湾跟美国还是低关税的状况下又是另外一种习产地"},{"start":438.667,"end":454.604,"text":"關稅署 關務署這種狀況會在你們掌控之中嗎是 報告委員當然我們這個風險都有在控管當中好 我想問一下你怎麼控管他寄到台灣來再轉到美國去省下來那些高額關稅那我們怎麼控管"},{"start":455.845,"end":468.276,"text":"跟委員報告 如同委員所知道 我們現在是有這個次數平反以及這個就是說我們是低價免稅才兩千塊而已然後我們有實名認證因為他那邊要繳稅 所以他轉來轉去轉回來那你怎麼管我們有實名認證那接下來我們要做的就是對於這個中國大陸進來的這些貨物我們會扣"},{"start":480.686,"end":502.905,"text":"我們會監控它的這個流量實質監控然後看看哪些報關行哪些公司專門在進大陸的這種小額包裹然後怎麼樣看到它將來出口這些狀況的對 這些流量我們都會監控前面要做預防中間要做查緝最後出口的時候要搞清楚不要到時候被人家處罰了我們都還不知道"},{"start":503.626,"end":519.105,"text":"好不好 關務署這件事情我覺得給我一個完整的流程跟我們接下來會怎麼做的一些有沒有新的方法如果這個狀況發生五月份以後的小兒包括大量入侵的情況下你們會採取什麼樣的做法是 也跟委員報告我們其實快遞貨物"},{"start":521.728,"end":549.349,"text":"它基本上是有總貨物流量的一個控制我們很關心的是我們不要變成別人席產地的工具而且最重要的是台灣MIT已經成為一個優質產品我們希望它是一個優質產品的代名詞而不是被席產地這樣子污名化的地方另外就是財政部世界官務組織其實亞太經合會都有推動所謂的AEO優質企業認證對吧"},{"start":552.451,"end":555.514,"text":"那台灣只有400多家的原因是什麼?這些是因為廠商不願意去認證"},{"start":562.625,"end":570.468,"text":"也就是說將來如果全世界已經回到高額關稅的狀況了所以AU的優質企業認證的話可以減少所謂的通關審查也可以讓優質的廠商得到比較優惠的方式我想關務署跟財政部這個還有經濟部是不是在台灣的廠商裡面怎麼樣讓協助他們能夠面對接下去這麼多的考驗"},{"start":585.715,"end":609.909,"text":"如果加入這些目前看起來我們承認的國家只有10個但是韓國有25個互惠的國家日本有14個所以在AO認證的相關的國家同意的情況下我希望台灣也能夠找到更多的貿易夥伴來協助廠商能夠協助他們有關通關審查的相關的作業"},{"start":611.109,"end":638.043,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導這也是我們海關一直努力的目標對 所以部長跟次長我希望你們在這上面協助關務署協助台灣的廠商不是只有給他880億給他實質能夠做得到讓他面對將來的挑戰不會受到這些國家突然間變動的影響我覺得現在的問題就是以前簽的貿易協定一個總統說話就不算數了很可怕所以要幹嘛要在各個國家裡面都有相關的朋友"},{"start":639.002,"end":647.415,"text":"包括像這種國際關務世界關務組織已經有的相關的機制我們就要把它趕快好好的運用接下來最後一個小問題在這次的"},{"start":651.555,"end":668.879,"text":"習產地的過程裡面我們希望財政部剛剛講的明確化的部分還有經濟部剛剛所說的可能會成為習產地的第一優先的所謂被列為的名單你們現在有任何優先的相關的產品或者是名單嗎或者被列為所謂的高危險名單嗎"},{"start":676.431,"end":688.738,"text":"一直在做的就是301被課高關稅的以及反傾銷稅之前叫做高風險商品這些都是高風險的貨物那現在應該有新的變局了啦是沒錯所以新的變局你要有新的相關的"},{"start":691,"end":708.712,"text":"應變跟討論跟美國人他們到底現在關心的是什麼我們是不是要先因應像我看到院長下去很多的其他的廠商真的都搞不清楚現在問題是沒人搞得清楚所以希望的是經濟部跟關務署跟財政部讓"},{"start":711.114,"end":730.376,"text":"不要說民眾廠商至少搞得清楚我覺得現在很多連自己的廠商都搞不太清楚工會更不要講打電話去工會很多工會都說我們也不知道要去問財政部那為了財政部財政部說也還不知道要去看經濟部看怎麼樣跟美國人談我覺得這些動作可能要快一點好嗎"},{"start":730.856,"end":756.014,"text":"好的好 我覺得至少我們在短期內希望你們可以一個完整的明確化的原則給我們所有的工會跟廠商好嗎 財政部我想跟委員報告當然我們希望所有都非常明確但是美國的關稅政策您也知道就是常常在變一路數變我知道但是我們就至少把高風險的先列出來然後給他們一些相關的因應措施"},{"start":756.734,"end":769.272,"text":"好的 我們把相關跟經濟部一起合作什麼叫高風險的因為經濟部也已經跟廠商在舉辦了你們平常就有在整理啦只是這次要把所有的東西再重新的recheck一次好嗎好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":731,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時28分）謝謝主席，我請莊部長、經濟部江次長及關務署署長。"],["主席：請3位長官。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好。次長及關務署署長，我想川普提出的對等關稅已經造成了全球非常重大的影響，當然他的目的是為了重塑全球產業鏈，然後美國優先，但是目的其實看起來只有一個，就是防堵中國，到現在為止，大概防堵中國是他最終的目的。目前為止，看到越南也開始擔心洗產地的問題，表示洗產地的部分在今天的專案報告裡面我們也希望看到是比較具體的，尤其在4月4號的時候，當時行政院經貿辦楊珍妮的簡報提到，低價產品洗產地、違規轉運是美國計算對等關稅的原因，是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們初步看起來，那個是公式，就是上面是用逆差，下面是用他們的進口額來算，至於未來在談判的時候會不會是他一個考慮的因素，我想這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：目前還不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想目前……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，您是我們負責談判的副代表，所以您在這個過程裡面，美國有把低價產品洗產地作為對台灣對等關稅32%的主要原因嗎？"],["江次長文若：就如同剛才部長所講的，未來要……"],["黃委員珊珊：還不知道？"],["江次長文若：要跟美國協商的時候才知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是白宮官方目前沒有把洗產地成為台灣32%的主要原因吧？目前還沒有吧？沒看到，我們找不到！"],["莊部長翠雲：看它有公布的公式，就是分子、分母除下來以後，再乘以50%，所以我們是32%。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，但是洗產地並不是我們的主要原因嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不管是不是主要原因，洗產地這個事情我們一定要阻絕的。"],["黃委員珊珊：洗產地就是不要讓任何可能透過轉運的方式，規避掉美國的高額關稅，剛剛講嘛，因為他要防堵中國嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：才能夠達到他課高關稅的目的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以經濟部、財政部跟公會對原產地有一定嚴謹的流程，主要是要在地加工，還要有實質轉型，然後目前為止要超過35%才可以算是所謂的產地，可是大部分很多35%的規範，目前為止對美國來說，它有沒有這麼明確的規範？經濟部。"],["江次長文若：分兩點跟委員說明……"],["黃委員珊珊：它有沒有很清楚哪一些東西是叫做實質轉型？哪一些東西才是真正所謂的原產地？"],["江次長文若：如果按照美國的規定，美國是由海關來認定原產地，根據美國原產地……"],["黃委員珊珊：對。現在的問題就變成是有一些是有規範、有一些是個案認定，甚至有一些可能是特殊商品，比如說自行車，要產車架的那個地方才叫做原產地，太陽能發電機組的那個太陽能電池原產地才叫做原產地，所以這些東西都還不清楚，是嗎？"],["江次長文若：根據美國的最終實質轉型規定，他會看幾點，第一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要海關確認！"],["江次長文若：就是名稱、特性，還有使用的方法是否有改變，此外他也會去看單一產品加工的複雜程度。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以兩位首長，現在台灣的廠商最困擾的其實就是這些；也就是說，從美國來說，107年駐美代表處經濟組的報告說，美國政府針對FTA的協定國家會約定原產地的證明格式，但是原產地證明目前是僅供參考，看海關的認定，最重要的是有些特殊商品還有特殊的規定；也就是說，這些東西目前為止並沒有百分之百明文或很明確的內容，這就是台灣跟美國要談判的相關細節，對吧？接下來的原產地可能也是要成為你們談判的內容吧？"],["江次長文若：我們未來要談什麼要看談判雙方相關的回應內容。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天到底是不是原產地的部分，我看到財政部的報告是事前預防、事中嚴查、事後嚴懲，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：在財政部報告裡面確實是這樣，就是說事前……"],["黃委員珊珊：事前怎麼樣預防？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個就是必須拿到原產地證明或輸出許可，我們才可以放行。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們台灣有能力去預防別人到台灣來洗產地的方式，目前有什麼樣比較具體的作法？"],["莊部長翠雲：具體的作法就如同我們報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：關務署應該都有嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，未來我們還會持續的精進。當然剛剛委員所提到的，我們這邊有洗產地的相關規範，不是洗產地，就是發原產地證明文件的方式，美方……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們109年就針對貿易法修正了，就是怕人家來洗產地，然後我現在調出來的資料看到財政部只管相關的經貿區，目前為止，貿易法實施以後，我查到了5年來罰了40件，只罰了140萬；也就是說，針對洗產地的部分，目前為止財政部自由貿易港區管理的部分只有40件140萬。經濟部，你們有針對貿易法的相關裁罰做出開罰或者是相關的資料嗎？"],["江次長文若：自貿港區是由財政部依據……"],["黃委員珊珊：那經濟部呢？沒有？"],["江次長文若：我們經濟部是在自貿港區以外的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們這幾年有查過多少嗎？"],["江次長文若：這幾年總共查了744件。"],["黃委員珊珊：罰了多少錢？"],["江次長文若：如果說有裁罰的話是二百多件，裁罰的金額是二千八百多萬。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以洗產地還是一個需要……如果我們要跟美國好好談判，這個部分在執行方面也是要嚴查──事中嚴查。現在有一個可能性，最近看到的是美國把所謂小額包裹的800塊美金取消，顯然應該會有很多原來要寄到美國的包裹會透過其他方式去規避相關的高額關稅，台灣因為比較優惠，5萬塊以下是簡易申報，然後2,000塊以下是免稅，這個有沒有可能成為將來……現在大家擔心的是5月份開始，這個一取消之後，中國大陸相關的化整為零的零組件會不會透過小額包裹的方式轉運到台灣，再藉由台灣跟美國還是低關稅的狀況下，又是另外一種洗產地？關務署，這種狀況會在你們掌控之中嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我們這個風險都有在控管當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我想問一下你怎麼控管？它寄到台灣來，再轉到美國去，省下那些高額關稅，我們怎麼控管？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，如同委員所知道的，我們現在是有次數頻繁以及我們是低價免稅，才2,000塊而已。"],["黃委員珊珊：對。"],["彭署長英偉：然後我們有實名認證。"],["黃委員珊珊：我直接說，就是剛剛講的，因為那邊要繳稅，所以它轉來轉去、轉回來，那你怎麼管？"],["彭署長英偉：我們有實名認證，接下來我們要做的就是對於中國大陸進來的貨物，我們會監控它的流量。"],["黃委員珊珊：實質監控。"],["彭署長英偉：對，到美國去的，我們也會……"],["黃委員珊珊：然後看看哪些報關行、哪些公司專門在進大陸的這種小額包裹。"],["彭署長英偉：是，有些大量進來的，我們會監控。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後怎麼樣看到將來出口這些狀況的……"],["彭署長英偉：對，這些流量我們都會監控。"],["黃委員珊珊：前面要做預防，中間要做查緝。"],["彭署長英偉：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後出口的時候要搞清楚，不要到時候被人家處罰了，我們都還不知道。"],["彭署長英偉：是，了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：關務署針對這件事情，我覺得給我一個完整的流程，跟我們接下來會怎麼做？有沒有新的方法？"],["彭署長英偉：好，也跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果這種狀況發生，5月份以後的小額包裹大量入侵的情況下，你們會採取什麼樣的作法？"],["彭署長英偉：是，也跟委員報告，其實我們的快遞貨物基本上是有總貨物流量的控制，所以不至於發生大量……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們很關心的是我們不要變成別人洗產地的工具，而且最重要的是台灣MIT已經成為一個優質產品，我們希望它是一個優質產品的代名詞，而不是被洗產地污名化的地方。","另外就是世界關務組織、亞太經合會都有推動所謂的AEO優質企業認證，對吧？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：台灣只有四百多家的原因是什麼？是因為廠商不願意認證？"],["彭署長英偉：AEO也是我們海關一直在推動……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，將來如果全世界已經回到高額關稅的狀況了，AEO優質企業認證的話可以減少所謂的通關審查，也可以讓優質的廠商得到比較優惠的方式，我想關務署跟財政部還有經濟部，是不是在台灣的廠商裡面，怎麼樣協助他們能夠面對接下去這麼多的考驗？如果加入這些目前看起來我們承認的國家只有10個，但是韓國有25個互惠的國家，日本有14個，所以在AEO認證的相關國家同意的情況下，我希望台灣也能夠找到更多貿易夥伴來協助廠商，能夠協助他們有關通關審查的相關作業。"],["彭署長英偉：是，謝謝委員指導，這也是我們海關一直努力的目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，部長跟次長，我希望你們在這上面協助關務署。協助台灣的廠商，不是只有給它880億，給他們實質能夠做得到、讓他們面對將來挑戰，不會受到這些國家突然間變動的影響，我覺得現在的問題就是以前簽的貿易協定，一個總統說話就不算數了，很可怕！所以要幹嘛？要在各個國家裡面都有相關的朋友，包括像世界關務組織已經有的相關機制，我們就要把它趕快好好的運用。","接下來最後一個小問題，在這次的洗產地過程裡面，我們希望財政部剛剛講的明確化的部分，還有經濟部剛剛所說的可能會成為被列為洗產地第一優先的名單，你們現在有任何優先的相關產品或者是名單嗎？或者被列為所謂的高危險名單嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：一直在做的就是301被課高關稅以及反傾銷稅美國課……"],["黃委員珊珊：之前叫高風險商品"],["彭署長英偉：這些都是高風險的貨物。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在應該有新的變局了。"],["彭署長英偉：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以新的變局你要有新的相關應變跟討論，美國人到底現在關心的是什麼？我們是不是要先因應？像我看到院長下去，很多其他的廠商真的都搞不清楚，現在問題是沒人搞得清楚，所以希望經濟部、關務署跟財政部讓……不要說民眾，讓廠商至少搞得清楚，我覺得現在很多連自己的廠商都搞不太清楚，公會更不要講，打電話去公會很多都說：我們也不知道，要去問財政部；問了財政部，財政部說：也還不知道，要看經濟部怎麼樣跟美國人談。我覺得這些動作可能要快一點，好嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：好的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得至少我們在短期內，希望你們可以給一個完整的、明確化的原則給所有公會跟廠商，好嗎？財政部。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當然我們希望所有都非常明確，但是美國的關稅政策你也知道，就是常常在變……"],["黃委員珊珊：一日數變，我知道。但是我們至少把高風險的先列出來，然後給他們一些相關的因應措施。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們跟經濟部一起合作討論什麼叫高風險的，因為經濟部也已經跟廠商舉辦座談會……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們平常就有在整理，只是這次要把所有的東西再重新recheck一次，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝珊珊委員。","接著請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160236","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160236","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfe9198502c99d2897b2710058b23c04f8ebda33721556222aca595a3337a5a3375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:23:45 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謝謝當然隨時都準備好了來 謝謝主席有請經濟部國務部長 國務會劉主委國務部長劉主委"},{"start":26.821,"end":44.582,"text":"委員好部長我很詳細看您的報告那報告當然有些重點我大概請問一下就是捷克我們設立這個所謂你境外關內這個部分捷克已經上路了嗎捷克已經上路了嗎是那目前執行狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":46.736,"end":62.393,"text":"我們現在還是在協助國內的廠商做一些貿易諮詢不是外管的經濟組就可以做了嗎但是外管來講的話我們在那個地方"},{"start":64.554,"end":81.173,"text":"確實啦我們現在因為人力的問題啦因為境外關聯是一個很大的一個概念你要去捷克投資或者捷克台灣投資你找到他就可以解決所有的問題是不是你的觀念想法是這樣子沒有錯嘛不是那你的想法是怎麼樣"},{"start":82.199,"end":106.334,"text":"報告委員所謂的境外就是中華民國國境之外就是在捷克在福岡或者在美國某一地對不對在境外那官內的意思是什麼官內就是屬於中華民國政府可以進入協助他們落地那外管能不能協助外管很難啦外管基本上外管也有經濟組啊No no外管是從事外交工作"},{"start":107.385,"end":128.151,"text":"你們經濟組當然是協助招商經濟組是附屬在裡面經濟組是您管的是您派任的嘛你可以加強規模我的意思是說你要有這個境外官內實質的功能而不是只有表面上的意義您聽我說完如果你的人力不夠你的授權不足傑克桑那邊他只是一個諮詢"},{"start":129.571,"end":148.042,"text":"他沒辦法馬上得到他應有的協助比方說一個捷克廠商要台灣投資或者台灣去捷克投資台灣去捷克投資我透過這個那個什麼貿易外貿協會就可以了嘛所以我的意思是你要花費功能我想請教你"},{"start":149.235,"end":175.084,"text":"捷克成立到現在有多少的捷克廠商透過這個貿易投資中心來請求協助有沒有相關資料我們是基本上是輔助台灣的廠商到捷克或者是中東歐去做一些不是 你們的報告是說捷克廠商跟台灣投資也可以透過那邊去取得資賬沒有 你看到你的報告同仁是不是這樣子是雙邊的嘛"},{"start":176.874,"end":180.95,"text":"沒有錯吧是雙邊的 沒有錯嘛我看我很仔細在研究這個問題嘛"},{"start":182.836,"end":207.734,"text":"是雙邊的嗎 捷克要來台灣投資 或是台灣要去捷克投資來台灣投資是我們的 投資台灣的這樣一個部門我們主要服務的是捷克商 是捷克要來台灣投資的吧捷克要來台灣投資的 是我們投資師的工作那我們台商要去捷克投資 那個才是我們的貿易中心的工作"},{"start":210.177,"end":222.604,"text":"那直接找貿協就好啦 為什麼遠在捷克 捷克應該服務在地的捷克來商報告委員 我們現在的貿協有一點稍微不足的地方貿協只做貿易推廣"},{"start":227.387,"end":253.726,"text":"所以這裡面...我贊成啦,我贊成,但是我要有實質的說你現在4月底要在福岡,福岡有機會我去看看到底是怎麼運作的4月底什麼時候要成立?報告委員,我們未來,我們真正的落實是這樣我們在那個貿易中心,將來我們要在那邊做一個虛擬的...我了解,我實際去了解一下,你4月底日本設立嘛時間點出來了嗎?當時?"},{"start":255.987,"end":267.02,"text":"我們4月21號就會揭牌我有時間去看一看 謝謝到底有沒有實施境外達到境外關聯的功能美國也會成立今年下半年也會成立"},{"start":268.376,"end":287.352,"text":"我覺得對中小企業的協助你除了財政部這些負稅署這個李署長是不是一起來這個相關的稅務包括出口金融支持等等輸出保惠優惠通關這些措施大概是財政部在執行那我覺得經濟部可以協助的部分"},{"start":288.7,"end":308.633,"text":"你水電可以給它減免,水電是經濟部官司業,你水電針對這些受影響,比如說這個船產,比如說家裡這個金屬扣件,這個手工具,或者機器業,你水電要給它減免,讓成本可以降低,是你可以做得到的。"},{"start":309.033,"end":331.5,"text":"報告委員我想這一部分我們現在有一個措施在進行就是我們的節能減碳我們的ESCO這裡面都有一些措施我們會透過這樣子的一個辦法來協助他能夠有效率的使用能源我直接就告訴他這個這半年或者這一年受到關稅的衝擊我的水電給你減少50%我們現在水電都是虧損的狀況我知道啦 虧損當然"},{"start":336.781,"end":359.224,"text":"他們虧損更嚴重不是 我們現在幫助他幫助他能夠節能減碳我們有這個我是救急 不是救窮啦你能夠做你所掌握的政策工具裡面除了財政部的規劃是財政部在執行之外我說你可以做的水電的減免最直接而且對他們最有管成本馬上降低嘛這個齁"},{"start":361.245,"end":381.236,"text":"我跟委員報告這個部分可能會違反美國的所謂的補貼我知道WTO我也了解但是你這是個暫時性的緊急處置措施我們的方法就是趕快透過節能減碳的這樣一個措施來幫助它永遠的競爭力長期的工作"},{"start":385.058,"end":411.864,"text":"那馬上改 誰可以反應 我提出來 你們要不要做 你自己去評估啦廠商給我說 我最直接 你最直接給我解免我的成本降低 我競爭力還可以維持 我就不會倒了這給您做參考了 是 謝謝委員 劉書偉產創條例 你要政府加速產創條例投資修法我上回期我把它修了啊 為什麼你現在還修什麼他現在還沒有過"},{"start":413.541,"end":437.135,"text":"我委員會通過了 現在等院會院會總質詢之後就算通過了這個我當時招募的時候我通過的啊對我以為你另外一位在提產生條例沒有吧沒有 但是因為現在新的法案還沒有辦法公告另外經濟部這個三大投資海外方案我那天在院會質詢2027條整一個條整你先講兩次資格調整"},{"start":443.277,"end":468.009,"text":"那產業調整這個部分到底公布了沒有還沒有他因為到期我們這個2024已經到期了現在2025的這個4月份我們新的跟委員報告我們針對這次的關稅問題我們有一個擴大方案包括我們的融資都擴大一倍那這個都要等院核定"},{"start":469.151,"end":496.991,"text":"我了解啦但是你們這個要趕快合訂而且我們產業也擴大了因為很多非中國其他地方的台商要回來因為非紅供應鏈的問題必須要回來但是你們沒有這個方案趕快公佈他們沒有辦法有所依據啊所以我就給你們趕快這三大方案延長到底內容是怎麼樣趕快公告好的另外你說產業再造基金什麼是產業再造基金"},{"start":498.089,"end":502.037,"text":"我們現在是有一個實驗性的基金就是過去我們去提醒產業你需要去轉型你那個國安會要出多少錢"},{"start":509.264,"end":537.792,"text":"我們已經出了我們出了12億那總共30億的基金在第一期那過去的做法是說廠商有時候聽完了不見得會去動作那我們現在這個基金會有人會去購買股權之後有人進去管理協助他轉型之後再退出我意思說不要創造新的名詞你這既然說推動產業再造產業要怎麼再造你要不要再造到什麼樣的一個一個一個境界什麼樣的程度"},{"start":538.792,"end":542.494,"text":"不是說你拿到12億你就說你要推動產業再造是針對傳統產業突破瓶頸那你現在是跟推動傳統產業升級有什麼關係一樣的概念嘛 對不對"},{"start":553.447,"end":579.736,"text":"所以你要把傳統產業升級你要推到2.0版對 這是跟過去這個是不太一樣的概念那其實我們是多條路在進行這只是其中一個一條那這一條主要是說過去我們喊那麼多大家不見得會動或者是他不知道如何做我舉個例跟委員報告我們第一次提出來就有廠商主動來報名因為他們發現他們上市之後呢他們沒有國際化管理能力"},{"start":580.416,"end":602.331,"text":"他就很希望這個基金能夠進去協助他們建議長基金要發揮功能能立即解決問題你那麼多 大家都問我說什麼是再造基金我說我要問一下劉靜清 劉書偉大家都不知道什麼基金的內容再造基金到底是什麼東西能夠協助幫忙哪些事項現在川普對等關稅現在已經正式執行了是不是對中國的關稅4月9號對145%對100多已經正式上路了嗎對"},{"start":609.557,"end":634.05,"text":"一個禮拜了對不對 從10月9號開始一個禮拜那在中國投資的台商有沒有跟政府有相關的反應你們有沒有介紹相關的訊息跟委員報告 其實在屬於現在原來有很多台商就是規劃快速的轉回來尤其是已經台灣有工廠的他們希望利用台灣的工廠能夠進行做最後組裝達到原產力的規定"},{"start":638.272,"end":656.269,"text":"那但是因為現在有一些屬於通訊類等等的這幾個屬於在還在一個豁免期的部分就稍微收盪但其他的部分現在有在移動他所當其中面臨到第一波就145%高關稅在中國投資的廠商他們一定想回來或移到第三地沒錯 沒錯"},{"start":658.09,"end":686.634,"text":"那他們所當前遇到的問題我覺得145%短時間可能沒有辦法去改變對不對所以他們勢必在最短時間之內他就想回來或者移出中國回來最快那我們能夠給他什麼樣的協助因為他們藍莓之極啊175%耶因為專業在中國比較多耶是不是這樣對所以你可能要了解這個我們還是跟經濟部的這個投資台灣辦公室我們現在是緊密的在合作好 謝謝主委 謝謝部長好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時23分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長、國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請郭部長、劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，我很詳細看您的報告，報告當然有些重點，我大概請問一下，就是我們設立所謂境外關內的貿易投資中心，這個部分在捷克已經上路了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：目前執行的狀況怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還是在協助國內的廠商做一些貿易諮詢……"],["邱委員志偉：就直接掛號尋求協助對不對？這不是外館的經濟組就可以做了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：但是以外館來講，我們在那個地方，確實啦，我們現在因為人力的問題……"],["邱委員志偉：因為境外關內是一個很大的概念耶，你要去捷克投資或者捷克廠商要來臺灣投資，你找到它就可以解決所有問題，是不是？你的觀念、想法是這樣子，沒有錯嘛？不是？那你的想法是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，所謂的境外就是中華民國國境之外……"],["邱委員志偉：就是在捷克、在福岡或者在美國某一地嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：在境外，那關內的意思是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：關內就是屬於中華民國政府可以進入協助他們落地……"],["邱委員志偉：那外館能不能協助？"],["郭部長智輝：外館很難啦，基本上，報告委員……"],["邱委員志偉：外館也有經濟組啊！"],["郭部長智輝：No！No！外館是從事外交工作。"],["邱委員志偉：你們經濟組當然是協助招商……"],["郭部長智輝：經濟組是附屬在裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：經濟組是您管的、是您派任的嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是他們……"],["邱委員志偉：你可以加強規模。我的意思是說，要有這個境外關內實質的功能，而不是只有表面上的意義。"],["郭部長智輝：因為……"],["邱委員志偉：您聽我說完。如果你的人力不夠、你的授權不足，捷克廠商去那邊只是做個諮詢，沒辦法馬上得到他應有的協助。比方說，一個捷克廠商要來臺灣投資或者臺灣廠商要去捷克投資，臺灣廠商去捷克投資的部分透過外貿協會就可以了嘛！所以我的意思是要發揮功能。我想請教你，這個貿易投資中心在捷克成立到現在，有多少的捷克廠商透過它來請求協助？有沒有相關資料？"],["郭部長智輝：我們基本上是輔助臺灣的廠商到捷克或者是中東歐去做一些落地……"],["邱委員志偉：不是！你們的報告是說捷克廠商要在臺灣投資也可以透過那邊去取得……沒有，你看一下你的報告，經濟部的同仁，是不是這樣？是雙邊的嘛，沒有錯吧？"],["郭部長智輝：不是啊！"],["邱委員志偉：是雙邊的沒有錯嘛，我很仔細在研究這個問題嘛，是雙邊的……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有，報告委員……"],["邱委員志偉：捷克要來臺灣投資或者臺灣要去捷克投資……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有！來臺灣投資是我們投資臺灣這樣的一個部門，跟境外關內完全不一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：我們主要服務的是捷克商嘛──是捷克要來臺灣投資的嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：捷克要來臺灣投資的部分，是我們投資司的工作。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們臺商要去捷克投資是需要……"],["郭部長智輝：那個才是我們貿易中心的工作。"],["邱委員志偉：奇怪，那直接找貿協就好了啊，為什麼要遠在捷克設置這樣一個中心？那個應該服務在地的捷克臺商啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在的貿協有一點稍微不足的地方，貿協只做……"],["邱委員志偉：貿協會不足？我覺得黃志芳做得很好啊！"],["郭部長智輝：貿協只做貿易推廣，所以這裡面有一點……"],["邱委員志偉：我贊成啦，部長，我贊成，但是要有實質的功能。你們4月底也要在福岡設置貿易中心，有機會我去福岡看看到底是怎麼運作的，4月底的什麼時候要成立？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，未來我們真正的落實是這樣，我們的那個貿易中心，將來我們要在那邊做一個虛擬的科學園區……"],["邱委員志偉：我實際去了解一下，你4月底要在日本設立嘛，時間點出來了嗎？什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：我們4月21號就會揭牌。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我有時間去看一下，看是怎麼運作的……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：到底有沒有實施並達到境外關內的功能？美國在今年下半年也會成立嘛！","另外，對於中小企業的協助，財政部有一些作為，請賦稅署署長也一起上台，財政部報告中提到要營造合理的賦稅環境，包括提供出口廠商金融支持、輸出保費優惠、簡化通關措施等，這些大概是財政部在執行的，但我覺得經濟部可以協助的部分是水電可以減免，水電是經濟部國營事業，針對這些受影響的廠商，比如說傳產，比如說金屬扣件、手工具或者機械業，在水電部分要給他們減免，讓他們的成本可以降低，這是你們可以做得到的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分我們現在有一個措施在進行，就是我們的節能減碳、我們的ESCO，這裡面都有一些措施，我們會透過這樣一個辦法來協助他們有效率的使用能源。"],["邱委員志偉：我們就直接就告訴他們，這半年或者這一年因為受到關稅的衝擊，在水電方面給予減少50%……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在水電都是虧損的狀況。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道是虧損，但是他們虧損的更嚴重！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們現在幫助他們能夠節能減碳，我們有……"],["邱委員志偉：我是救急不是救窮啦！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["邱委員志偉：就你所能掌握的政策工具裡面，除了財政部的規劃是財政部在執行之外，我說你可以做的部分，水電的減免最直接，而且他們最有感，成本馬上降低嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，這個部分可能會違反美國所謂的補貼……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道啦，WTO那個我也了解，但你這是暫時性的緊急處置措施嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們的方法就是趕快透過節能減碳的這樣一個措施來幫助他們永續的競爭力……"],["邱委員志偉：節能減碳是一個長期的工作。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有，馬上改的話，馬上可以反映在它的成本降低。"],["邱委員志偉：我提出來，你們要不要做就你們自己去評估。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：廠商跟我說，最直接的就是你減免我的水電費，我的成本降低了，競爭力還可以維持，我就不會倒了，這個給您做參考啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：劉主委，關於產創條例，你要政府加速產創條例修法獎勵投資，上會期我把它修了啊！你現在還要修什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它現在還沒有過。"],["邱委員志偉：委員會通過了，現在只等院會，院會總質詢之後就會三讀通過。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們在等產創條例通過。"],["邱委員志偉：這個是我當召委的時候通過的啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我以為你另外再提產創條例，沒有吧！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，但是因為現在新的法案還沒有辦法公告實施。"],["邱委員志偉：好。另外，關於經濟部投資臺灣三大方案，我那天在院會質詢，2027調整……已經調整2次，資格調整、產業調整，這個部分到底公布了沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還沒有，因為我們這個……"],["邱委員志偉：2024年已經到期了，現在已經2025年4月份了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，針對這次的關稅問題，我們有一個擴大方案，包括我們的融資都擴大1倍，這個都要等院核定。"],["邱委員志偉：我了解啦，但是你們這個要趕快核定，然後去推動。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且我們產業也擴大了。"],["邱委員志偉：因為很多非中國其他地方的臺商要回來，因為非紅供應鏈的問題必須要回來，但是你們這個方案沒有趕快公布出來，他們沒有辦法有所依據，所以我就很急了，你們趕快讓這三大方案延長，到底內容是怎麼樣，請趕快公告。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你有提到產業再造基金，什麼是產業再造基金？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在是有一個實驗性的基金，就是過去我們提醒產業需要去轉型……"],["邱委員志偉：國發會要出多少錢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們已經出了，我們出了12億，總共30億的基金在第一期，過去的作法是，廠商有時候聽完了不見得會去動作，我們現在這個基金會去購買股權，之後有人進去管理，協助他們轉型之後再退出。"],["邱委員志偉：我的意思是說不要創造新的名詞，既然你說推動產業再造，產業要怎麼再造？你要再造到什麼樣的一個境界、什麼樣的程度，對不對？而不是說你拿了12億，你就說你要推動產業再造，是針對傳統產業突破瓶頸，那你現在跟推動傳統產業升級有什麼關係？一樣的概念嘛，對不對？所以你要把傳統產業升級，你要推動2.0版。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這是跟過去不太一樣的概念，其實我們是多條路在進行，這只是其中一條，這一條主要是說過去我們喊那麼多，大家不見得會動，或者是他們不知道如何做。我舉個例來跟委員報告，我們第一次提出來就有廠商主動來報名，因為他們發現他們上市之後，他們沒有國際化管理能力，他們就很希望這個基金能夠進去協助他們建立這樣的能力。"],["邱委員志偉：基金要發揮功能、能夠立即解決問題，大家都問我說什麼是再造基金？我說我要問一下劉鏡清劉主委，大家都不知道基金的內容，再造基金到底是什麼東西？能夠協助、幫忙哪些事項？","現在川普的對等關稅是不是已經正式執行對中國的關稅？4月9號、145%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，一百多。"],["邱委員志偉：已經正式上路了嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：一個禮拜了對不對？從4月9號開始已經一個禮拜了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：在中國投資的臺商有沒有跟政府有相關的反映？你們有沒有接到相關的訊息？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，其實原來有很多臺商就是規劃快速的轉回來，尤其是臺灣已經有工廠的，他們希望利用臺灣的工廠能夠做最後組裝，達到原產地的規定，但是因為現在有一些屬於通訊類等等，這幾個屬於還在一個豁免期的部分，就稍微slow down，但其他的部分現在有在移動。"],["邱委員志偉：還是有一些臺商在中國那邊投資，他們首當其衝，面臨到第一波145%高關稅，在中國投資的廠商一定想回來或是移到第三地，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：非紅供應鏈，他們當前遇到這個問題，145%在短時間內可能沒有辦法去改變，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以他勢必會想在最短的時間之內回來或者移出中國。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：回來最快。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們能夠給他們什麼樣的協助？因為他們是燃眉之急，145%，全球只有中國才有，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你可能要……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們跟經濟部的投資臺灣辦公室現在是緊密在合作。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝主委、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請李坤城委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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有請我們副主委好 請出位前面齁 主委齁 主委我們在質詢之前 我們先看看今天第一個標題"},{"start":17.827,"end":43.966,"text":"不是唐山過台灣沒辦點錢不是唐山過台灣沒辦點錢是唐山過台灣沒辦點錢啦齁主委這個我看今天早上那個業務報告齁我當然問幫人家張宏祿委員齁總廳擔心啦齁你的錢齁沒下的捏啊現在沒下的齁我希望我們做一個平等的合格字體齁我們要再收工啊人家平等的建設齁我們不怕失望捏主委"},{"start":45.914,"end":50.478,"text":"會不會因為我們的總預算的減少,受到衝擊?影響是一定會影響的,因為目前我們看到我們的預算3.91%、凍結3.62%那些過去以來沒有的狀況,今年最陽春"},{"start":68.274,"end":77.161,"text":"這就是合肥肥的醫生本來就在骨膚底部的青瘦的醫生他的四十一已經是青瘦的而做的事情暗斗現在學校 學校還要依賴政策 不會依賴公營那三分之一沒有 依賴政策 跟所謂的政策 隔十天的醫生沒有停在那裡行的法要落差過太多所以我們覺得四十一都在那裡瘦的錢"},{"start":97.878,"end":104.903,"text":"我還是 英國方面的合併費其實喔做的討論 做的賺但是也要賺的付出 這才是特定的"},{"start":105.942,"end":132.962,"text":"今天宋伯通主委有討論說像我們園民會 園營教室像我們在那裡但是醫生在我們那裡靠的技巧我們還是要自己努力啦可能因為針對我們所有客家鄉鎮的軟硬體的建設還要封面 包括藝文還要合格服務可以整理整理以後我們可以做民宿 做觀光"},{"start":133.722,"end":143.312,"text":"其實一個人在那裡學生的有機會多多少少人在那裡提防我們在那裡安居樂業我想主委是用那裡的設施去做"},{"start":144.104,"end":151.59,"text":"不錯不錯,我聽聽,現在天風日還在市區所以我會提醒大家,醫生很重要在醫生院的時候,在國神社其實對所有的年齡都不太好對發展都不太好我想現在也有同樣的,所有民進黨的立場一定要來支持,要拜託主委"},{"start":174.889,"end":181.511,"text":"將被刪除含有凍結的部分加進去盤點 加進去送出來我們加進去努力啦我們希望合格委員會可以發揮的作用改造可以做的事改造 尤其是我們合格的鄉親要由他們交代啦 這樣好不好好 感謝委員的支持 感謝"},{"start":194.836,"end":216.533,"text":"主委,我相信這個合格煎炮城的六堆每年公園會創邀一個節慶活動判的規模引入印太,我們也被列為全國合葬十二大的節慶活動之一,我相信主委會支持、會服從但是我們調查一些資料,會獲得明年的補助金額"},{"start":217.915,"end":221.219,"text":"差不多兩百萬 其實要兩百萬 要判在法庭還要這麼辛苦啦 主委可以看這個事情嗎沒有錯 要緊急 有國稅的意思啦 全面"},{"start":233.177,"end":236.039,"text":"從今年來,省錢的優惠比去年還要多所以,除非那個醫生,說來說去還是說到醫生如果醫生,他的規模,做這樣的態勢所以,做的支持,我們的企業一定會支持啦"},{"start":251.116,"end":255.958,"text":"主委我們台灣沒有分北課南課國庫課委會支持讓慢台山縣像我們的六堆也是合格創造一個場域我們想國庫"},{"start":267.023,"end":284.538,"text":"看到學位費,針對我們浪漫台山縣,法規十一的金費,這樣投資下去就有問題不然這樣,南部的學館員,讚美羨慕啦,看到這樣實在是天壤之別我們要想,主委要供應南部的學館員,針對他們的落差,我們用來處理讓他們入隊的學館員,更有平衡感"},{"start":292.125,"end":296.847,"text":"羅曼陀三先生大出名聲請問在六地間發動的合作我們可以由國台的法庭出來目前在國內當中包括法庭、媒體的宣傳等等我們可以在六地間提供先進行"},{"start":317.958,"end":342.248,"text":"我們是拜託主委啦吼,我們依依我們引通主委拜託的講其實因為我們雅滿在屏東攀佛洞,我們還集中在一個鄉鎮攀,我們有百雷合格鄉鎮,讓人家要行一套節目,我們有法律啦吼,我們希望百雷鄉鎮總會有針對不一樣地方特色,攀起家的藝文活動,甚至我們再度合格的邀請,"},{"start":344.009,"end":354.179,"text":"他來創業做大店長的計劃我們應該要尊敬他的基盤主要來支持好嗎我們在各方研究來支持所以最後我要說"},{"start":356.579,"end":367.144,"text":"也有委員提到客家逼的事情有提出一個質疑問題國勇司他提的是跟屏東縣兩個部署的對象共用不共用國勇司是年滿20歲屏東縣是18到20歲客委會也沒有共用18到20歲另外共同的部分"},{"start":382.031,"end":391.761,"text":"117年的課餘認證還有合格的合課餘的家庭成員我們想這個中央同地方擁有無窮用的補助的年齡的問題問題出在哪裡"},{"start":397.399,"end":402.962,"text":"要在過程中進行討論和辯論所以有請提防政府來討論的時節,為無窮人的解脫所以目前全國的統一不可以有利用的版本"},{"start":414.327,"end":416.168,"text":"沒有另外的版本 一個版本18歲到20歲 最多18歲到20歲 沒分因為我看到這樣 因為時間 創造的時間 本來要等一個年齡層後來又再加 加到18歲到20歲"},{"start":439.534,"end":443.018,"text":"另外希望客家企業可以運用到合格的商家等方有這個意義但是目前合作廠商790件平均案發61件應該不老闆"},{"start":454.773,"end":456.734,"text":"不太白,因為有要求,政府等於要三萬多元頂價要求主要他要用的條件,他要講學,所以要提供講學的導資,聽他的數位支付"},{"start":473.486,"end":480.597,"text":"所以他要由TWQ來實驗人家的言語法律所以可能有時他用的條件沒有法律符合,沒有法律掩蓋所以他要報復我,我會再請人家副代理再加強"},{"start":489.076,"end":499.622,"text":"主要來講一定要加強啦 要不然兩天的錢沒辦法用沒辦法落實我們生產經濟對啦 說生產經濟能夠活絡 還要再衝壓但是一定要深入到我們的偏鄉的地方啦加強我們的輔導啦這樣好嗎?是 一天一天 每天每天我們一起要求我們一起自我要求好 放下去大便啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時10分）謝謝召委，有請古主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委好。主委，在質詢之前請看我今日簡報的標題：不是唐山過臺灣沒半點錢，而是統刪過臺灣沒半點錢。我看今天早上的業務報告很多人問你，包含張宏陸委員都為你擔心經費沒有了，現在錢沒有了，我想身為一位屏東的客家子弟，當然會憂心我們屏東的客家建設會沒有了，主委，針對屏東的客家建設你有什麼看法？會不會因為總預算減少而受到衝擊？"],["古主任委員秀妃：影響是一定會有的，目前我們看到預算刪減1.9億、凍結3.6億，這是過去以來所沒有的狀況，今年是最嚴重的。再來，客委會預算本來就是在各部會當中敬陪末座的，預算40億已經算是很少的，但是我們要做很多的事情，推動客家文化不是依賴個人、社會，而是依賴政策，假使政策訂定了，但是沒有預算的話，就會窒礙難行、落差很大，所以我說40億還算是少的預算，客委會預算其實可以討論、可以刪減，但是這次刪的幅度太大了。"],["徐委員富癸：我記得上次有跟主委討論過，原住民和客家人人數差不多，但原民會預算是客委會的好幾倍。"],["古主任委員秀妃：3倍。"],["徐委員富癸：客委會真的還是自己要努力，對於客家鄉鎮的軟硬體建設及各方面，也包含藝文方面及客家風俗，將其整理一下，我們可以開民宿、發展觀光，其實這會讓很多年輕人有機會就地安居樂業，主委，我想這有很多事情可以做的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有錯、沒有錯，我瞭解。各地方也有很多需求，所以我認為預算是非常重要的，客委會預算算是很少的，如果再刪下去，其實對所有人都不是很好的、對政策推展也是不好的。"],["徐委員富癸：我跟民進黨所有委員都會支持你們，我要拜託主委，趕緊將被刪除及凍結的部分盤點出來，大家來努力，我們希望客家委員會可以發揮作用、推動業務，這樣對我們的客家鄉親也比較有一個交代，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝委員的支持。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，六堆尖炮城每年都會有節慶活動，舉辦的規模越來越大，當然也被列為全國客庄十二大的節慶活動之一，我想主委可以支持這個活動，但是我們稍微調閱一下資料，發現他們每年的補助經費都不多，就差不多200萬，其實200萬要舉辦這個活動是非常辛苦的，主委，你怎麼看待這個事情？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有錯，他們經費的確是有比較少一點，但是從全面來看，今年來申請的團體比去年的還多，所以客委會的預算有限，講來講去，還是講到預算，預算規模就是這個大小，所以我們能夠支持的部分一定儘量會去支持。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，現在臺灣沒有分北客、南客，過去客委會還支持我們的浪漫台三線，同樣的六堆也是客家非常重要的場域，我們過去看到客委會針對浪漫台三線花幾十億經費來投資其軟硬體，讓南部的客家人非常羨慕，這實在是天壤之別，我想主委同樣也是南部的客家人，針對這個落差，你們要如何處理，來讓六堆的客家人感覺會比較平衡一點？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有錯，浪漫台三線打出了名聲，同樣的在六堆跟花東台九線進行合作，我們也會舉辦很大的活動，目前正在規劃當中，包括活動、媒體宣傳等等，我們會在六堆跟台九線一起來進行。"],["徐委員富癸：本席拜託主委，因為我們在屏東辦活動都會集中在一個鄉鎮辦理，但我們有8個客家鄉鎮，老人家要到那個地方參加活動比較困難，我們希望8個鄉鎮針對不一樣的地方特色，一起來推動自己的藝文活動，甚至有很多客家的年經人來創業、做大店長的計畫，我認為這是非常好的計畫，也請主委支持。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們來規劃、研究及支持。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，有委員談到客家幣的事情，他們也提出一個質疑，像是高雄市跟屏東縣的補助對象不一樣，高雄市是年滿20歲，屏東縣是18到20歲，客委會同樣是18到20歲，另外，共同的部分是要通過114年的客語認證，還有客語家庭成員，我想為什麼中央和地方會有不同補助年齡的問題，問題出在哪裡？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這個過程我們一直在討論、一直在變通，所以請地方政府來討論的時候有看到不一樣的地方，目前會全國統一，不會有兩個版本，只會有一個版本。"],["徐委員富癸：原本是18歲，還是20歲？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是18歲到20歲。"],["徐委員富癸：那高雄市的部分呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：同樣是18到20歲，沒有分縣市。因為我看到補助只會對單一個年齡層，後來是再增加到18歲到20歲。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，你希望客家幣可以運用到客家的商家當中，這樣才有意義啦！但是目前的合作廠商共791家，屏東只有67家，應該不止這樣吧？"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該不止，我有要求我們的業務單位趕緊努力地去邀請店家加盟，主要是有兩個條件，一個是會講客家，所以它會貼上「𠊎講客」的標誌，第二個是數位支付，所以它要用TWQR才有辦法來接受消費，有的店家因為不符合這兩個條件，就沒辦法加入，這部分我會再請我們的業務單位再加強。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我想這一定要加強啦！不然2億元的這些錢沒辦法用、沒辦法落實到地方經濟。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是、是。我們的目標是一定要達到3,000家啦！"],["徐委員富癸：我們希望能夠活絡地方經濟，這才是最重要的，你們要深入到很多的偏鄉地區再加強輔導啦！"],["古主任委員秀妃：一定、一定。這是我們對自我的要求。"],["徐委員富癸：希望你們能達標，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝。"],["主席：羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。我都不知道徐委員是客家子弟。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員高金素梅、林思銘、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dff6cdca1932235a4203e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222abe1ab5d36ae375a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:58:29 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她跟妳說沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":109.851,"end":136.806,"text":"今年二月開始他拿的所以這早就改了啦可能因為他浪費我時間去嘛不是 還蠻改的部分啦他剛才怎麼說啦你用不安定喔 我在找他沒有啦我用不安定在推敲啦因為那時間有落差嘛那拿走的就是原始版啦那沒關係嘛 你現在澄清了嘛提案不等於決議嘛對 而且最後是改組決議只要報告 對不對"},{"start":138.507,"end":143.512,"text":"結果結論是這樣結論是這樣,但是前前後後那先不美啊那再來講有意義嗎?譬如說今年2月、3月、4月到現在講凍結事宜有意義嗎?還是有意義,因為這是一個過程不是過程,它是一直講現在被凍結事宜喔,然後之後是3.6月後啊"},{"start":165.131,"end":171.176,"text":"我現在在講這個案你浪費我很多時間我在講這個案你不要再去講到業務費我在講這個案有凍結事宜嗎最後的結論目前時候提報告提報告沒有凍結那你為什麼不講你就講一下沒有凍結我有凍結事宜嗎你現在再答覆我一次"},{"start":189.409,"end":192.672,"text":"主決意就沒有動結的那個,你真的搞不懂,連你都搞不懂經同意後,使得動之"},{"start":213.407,"end":222.151,"text":"沒有啦 凍結預算4億就劃掉啦所以沒有凍結 摸凍結 摸凍結你看 你知道主委 一個主委對這個提案都 你看 用了我三分多鐘了好 接下來 接下來 我想"},{"start":234.978,"end":244.106,"text":"我們客語的傳承還有客家文化的傳承剛剛我們張宏祿召委講得非常好他有說錢要花在刀口上"},{"start":245.91,"end":267.151,"text":"但是我們也非常肯定客核會長期以來做了很多客語推廣的努力包含網路有多元課程包含客語的認證辦了很多翻譯世界名著還有培訓了很多公開宣講員這個都做了很多沒錯但是我們看到的是這個數量就是"},{"start":269.973,"end":296.432,"text":"這個成果用這樣子的量化可是輕忽了它的品質跟我們的最終的目的是要推廣客語所以客語它是一種語言就跟我們不管學台語還是學英語一樣那需要的是環境我想主委你認同吧你只要講認同不認同就是說語言它需要的是環境而且是盡量要融入在生活中您認同嗎"},{"start":296.872,"end":319.427,"text":"我的念頭,我念頭,但是要反經,那不是一間人建立下來的對,我知道,當然當然,我沒有說,我沒有再往下講,還沒往下講啦所以呢,我們在這邊希望建議就是說,你量化的指標,是不是可以轉化成客語在日常生活中的使用"},{"start":320.989,"end":333.522,"text":"就是說你們做了那麼多但是是不是接下來包括今年的預算開始使用的時候你要讓課宇怎麼樣可以真正在每個區塊每個區塊我們在每個區塊每個區塊你慢慢的從一個區塊譬如說南部"},{"start":341.69,"end":352.454,"text":"南部他比較少客家莊但是有客家莊的地方客家人的地方你讓他一個區塊把讓這個客語可以慢慢的成為生活然後擴散就像我會哼人但是呢喉嚨會我會哼的詩啦但東東你哼什麼你會哼什麼啦"},{"start":360.837,"end":378.495,"text":"所以我們應該讓這個克魚的這種生活上的應用更多還有包含我們這個這麼多量化的指標大家你在報告中也一直寫然後每年我們也花了很多的預算那我們有沒有促進跨世代的自然傳承"},{"start":379.116,"end":403.335,"text":"也就是說要一代一代傳下去那還有就是說我們課語考試認證通過了那是否有代表他在市場在家庭在鄰里之間呢大家可以很自然的用課語來溝通甚至讓更多的人他可能不一定很會講但他已經都聽得懂課語或是可以聽得懂一半"},{"start":404.596,"end":427.274,"text":"或者是他講得出幾句客語其實就像我對台語我都聽得懂然後我可以講部分我沒辦法講得很認真對台語但是我聽得懂我可以跟人家溝通那我要講的話我就講幾句我還可以叫我全部講我又沒辦法所以我們的客語可不可以朝向這方面我們來推廣的好一點"},{"start":428.344,"end":436.967,"text":"當然圖羅維研所說的沒有錯,其實我們說的額度要罰錢,我妹妹預算不拿所以他又一點錢又散了你一直要強調這個經費,那我覺得我們現在在談預算很多人談預算的人他沒有關心你真正課宇的傳承"},{"start":454.201,"end":478.478,"text":"所以主委你不要落入那個我們客家人我們都是客家人其實所有的政治人物包括所有的這些網軍側翼他要來喊喊喊喊到最後我們自己客家人要知道我的客語是不是真的在地方有推廣是不是在台灣客語跟客家文化是保存下來的怎麼說啊怎麼說啊 同山勾腿灣啦齁沒搬兩千啦什麼三萬"},{"start":483.241,"end":509.075,"text":"岡山岡天啦所以因為他剛剛的進行時期三萬打平啦沒辦兩千啦走得一直傳承下來所以客委會的預算客委會預算每年也增加所以不要老是用這種意識形態好不好我現在講不然你生命有什麼用不然你生命有什麼用不然你生命有什麼用不然你生命有什麼用不然你生命有什麼用不然你生命有什麼用不然你生命有什麼用"},{"start":511.796,"end":520.58,"text":"我們現在課餘 我們花了那麼多錢我們要知道 陸續要喊不勞拜 永遠不夠啦不勞拜 因為你那個負責人 過困難 你會困難你們在報告裡面 你要發客家幣客家幣 你要發一千塊 發四十萬人 等於花四億"},{"start":542.25,"end":559.864,"text":"人家文化幣文化幣是給年輕人的成人禮客家幣發給18到20歲的年輕人你這是什麼理由我沒有反對我應該先講我支持客家預算但是我更支持是我們所有的預算"},{"start":560.845,"end":580.2,"text":"假設別人有更好的成果比你用少的錢或用跟你一樣的錢他有更好的成果你不要一直喊我錢要多然後都不去看成果我們要強調的是你成果要出來所以你花這個4億的客家幣你先說這個是什麼禮人家文化幣是成年禮你是什麼禮"},{"start":580.52,"end":580.92,"text":"通過特意認證的你不要給他抽籤"},{"start":603.104,"end":627.84,"text":"通過客語認證你就每個人發他一千塊我建議這第一個第二個預計發放四十萬客家幣你卻只有預估三十二萬人前往客庄人家發一千塊一個人就會帶一家人或帶兩三個朋友前往你發了四十萬客家幣一人一千四十萬人結果只預計三十二人次前往"},{"start":628.32,"end":630.781,"text":"我們要看有限的錢我們怎麼做得最好但是我全力支持客家預算好不好你現在你就說嘛我給你4億發客家幣"},{"start":656.087,"end":673.119,"text":"你既然40萬人,你只預計32萬人前往,這不太誇張了報告裡寫的啊,本案估計帶動你預估就估太少了啦,我知道,你前面浪費了我很多時間,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":699,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時58分）謝謝主席，有請古主委。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。首先，一個立法院小學堂的考試，請秀第一張投影片好嗎？我請問你，這是去年我們在審查今年總預算的時候，客委會預算在內政委員會審查時的資料，請問主委，內政委員會的提案表它會等於是最後的決議嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是，會做調整。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以我在這裡凍結該項預算4億元，最後改成怎麼樣，你說一下好嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這個後來是改主決議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，改主決議。"],["古主任委員秀妃：提報告就可以了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，提報告就可以。我想這個應該不是客委會刻意流出去給很多的網軍側翼。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有、沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是嘛，不可能。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這個應該是公開的資訊，大家都看得到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我今天這個立法院小學堂就是希望讓很多的年輕人知道，關心立法院非常好，但是要瞭解真相、要瞭解真相！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下！不要拿提案表來說這個是決議，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想跟委員說明一下，20秒就好……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有問你，我時間寶貴。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這個還沒有改決議之前就送出去了，委員會要再到大會，這個決議也有可能成真。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是！不是！我現在要跟你說不會，這是今年2月開始他拿的，所以這早就改了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：可能是還沒改的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你怎麼這麼瞭解呢？側翼是你認識的嗎？不然你怎麼會知道？"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是，是推敲啦！因為時間有落差，他拿到的就是原始版。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，你現在澄清了，提案不等於決議，而且最後是改主決議，只要報告，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：現在的結論是如此。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，結論是這樣。"],["古主任委員秀妃：可是前面可能不是這樣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在來講有意義嗎？比如，今年2月、3月、4月到現在講凍結4億有意義嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：還是有意義，因為這是一個過程。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是過程，他一直講現在被凍結4億。"],["古主任委員秀妃：現在是3.6億，但不是這個案子……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！我現在在講這個案子。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是業務費……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你浪費我很多時間，你不要再去講到業務費，我在講這個案子，有凍結4億嗎？最後的結論沒有嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前是要提報告。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，提報告，沒有凍結，那你為什麼不講？你就講一下沒有凍結嘛，我有凍結4億嗎？你現在再答復我一次。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我剛才有答復，現在是要提報告，同意之後就沒有問題，如果沒有同意可能就會有問題，這個我就不知道了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有啊！就直接提，那個主決議就沒有凍結，你真的搞不懂！連你都搞不懂。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有，書面經同意後始得動支。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，凍結預算4億就劃掉了，所以沒有凍結。"],["古主任委員秀妃：現在沒有凍結。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要這麼說也對，一個主委對這個提案都搞不懂，你看用了我3分多鐘。接下來，我們客語的傳承，還有客家文化的傳承，剛剛張宏陸召委講得非常好，他說錢要花在刀口上，但是我們也非常肯定客委會長期以來做了很多客語推廣的努力，包含網路有多元課程、辦了很多客語認證、翻譯世界名著，還有培訓很多講客語的宣講員，你們都做了很多，沒錯。但是我們看到的是這個數量、成果用這樣子來量化，可是輕忽了它的品質，我們最終的目的是要推廣客語。客語是一種語言，就跟我們不管學臺語還是學英語一樣，需要的是環境，主委，你認同吧？你只要講認同、不認同就好，語言需要的是環境，而且是盡量要融入在生活中，你認同嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我認同，不過這個環境是每一個人建立起來的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我知道，當然、當然，我沒有再往下講，我還沒往下講。所以我們建議量化的指標是不是可以轉化成客語在日常生活中的使用，你們做了那麼多，但是接下來，包括今年預算開始使用的時候，你要怎麼樣讓客語可以真正在每個區塊、每個區塊使用，如同你剛才講的環境。我們的環境能夠在每個區塊、每個區塊，慢慢的從一個區塊，譬如南部比較少客家庄，但是有客家庄的地方、客家人的地方，在這個區塊讓客語可以慢慢的成為生活，然後擴散。就像我是客家人，但是河洛話我聽得懂，但很多人聽不懂我們的客家話，所以我們應該讓客語在生活上的應用更多，還有包含這麼多的量化指標，你在報告中也一直寫，每年也花了很多的預算，我們有沒有促進跨世代的自然傳承，也就是要一代一代傳下去。","還有客語考試認證通過了，是否代表在市場、在家庭、在鄰里之間，大家可以很自然的用客語來溝通，甚至讓更多人聽得懂，他可能不一定很會講，但他已經都聽得懂客語或是可以聽得懂一半，而且講得出幾句客語，其實就像我對臺語都聽得懂，我也可以講出部分，我的臺語沒辦法講得很流利，但是我聽得懂，我可以跟人家溝通，我想要講的話還可以講得出幾句，但是叫我全部講臺語，我又沒辦法，所以我們的客語可不可以朝向這方面來推廣就好一點？"],["古主任委員秀妃：當然，剛剛委員所提到的沒有錯，其實我們講的這些都要花錢，但是我們的預算不夠，現在1.9億又刪除了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你一直要強調這個經費，我覺得我們現在在談預算，很多談預算的人沒有關心真正客語的傳承，所以主委，你不要落入那個，我們都是客家人，其實所有的政治人物，包括所有的網軍、側翼，他來喊、喊、喊、喊到最後，我們客家人自己要知道客語是不是真的在地方有推廣，在臺灣客語和客家文化是不是保存下來。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想現在客語……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我要說「唐山過臺灣無半點錢，剎猛打拚耕山耕田」，所以我們客家的精神就是「剎猛打拚」，但是「無半點錢」，還是可以一直傳承下去。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有錯，我認同委員所說的，我非常認同。"],["徐委員欣瑩：客委會的預算每年也增加，所以不要老是用這種意識形態，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是我要跟委員說明，給我20秒說明就好了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下，最重要的是，現在客語花了那麼多錢，我們要知道陸續……"],["古主任委員秀妃：還不夠、還不夠！現在還不夠，我跟委員報告，還不夠！"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，錢永遠不夠。"],["古主任委員秀妃：還是不夠，因為語言復振非常困難。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，你們在報告裡面提到要發客家幣，客家幣1,000塊要發40萬人，等於花4億，文化幣是給年輕人的成人禮，客家幣發給18到20歲的年輕人，這是什麼理由？我沒有反對，我應該先講，我支持客家預算，但是我更支持所有的預算，假設別人有更好的成果，用比你少的錢或是用跟你一樣的錢，但是有更好的成果，你不要一直喊我錢要多，然後都不去看成果，我們要強調的是你成果要出來，所以你花4億的客家幣，你先說這個是什麼禮，文化幣是成年禮，你是什麼禮？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想我們不是用「禮」的概念……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不回答，我就要打斷你了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員也很關心年輕人不講客家話，但是我們客家人在哪裡，我沒辦法一個一個找出來，我們的預算有限，所以我們提出18到20歲的年輕人使用……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你可以通過客語認證的不要抽籤，通過客語認證，你就每個人發1,000塊，這是我第一個建議。第二個，預計發放40萬份客家幣，卻只有預估32萬人前往客庄，人家是1個人發1,000塊就會帶一家人或帶兩、三個朋友前往，你發了40萬份客家幣，1人1,000元、40萬人，結果你只預計32萬人次前往，我覺得這個效率太差了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我要跟委員報告，委員一直說不要講到錢，可是我還是要講到錢，因為客委會預算不夠……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以講到錢沒關係，但是不要一直說不夠，我們要看的是有限的錢怎麼樣做到最好，但是我全力支持客家預算。"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是現在1.9億預算又被刪了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，現在我給你4億發客家幣，既然要發40萬人，你只預計32萬人前往，這不會太誇張了？"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是、不是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這是你報告裡寫的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是預估。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的預估估太少了，我知道，你前面浪費了我很多時間，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝徐委員。"],["主席：鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林國成、林國成、林國成委員不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df016196ddf0395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如果客會刪的比1.9億還多那我們的解凍的數字會跟著調 刪除的數字也會跟著調所以這個是困難所在好 沈蒙其實你講的客竅話我都聽得懂但今天在這個國會殿堂我們必須還是要對全國的民眾讓他們知道不然到時候你被誤解你就不知道要怎麼去跟誰說"},{"start":111.957,"end":138.871,"text":"對不對我覺得再來今天大家也都一直在講要提振客家化你像年輕人主委你覺得一個文化一個信仰那我們以台灣的客家族群來講就好了你覺得什麼最能夠引起共鳴然後跟大家最容易了解你覺得"},{"start":141.098,"end":164.855,"text":"委員指的意思是在台灣還是客家的部分台灣的客家就在台灣的客家然後呢在文化在語言你覺得哪一種是最容易讓人家了解的我覺得是如果讓人能夠了解親近我不是考題啦你放心答應該是跟生活有跟生活有關沒錯跟生活有關的像那個影響民眾最大的OK但我們再限縮一點點"},{"start":171.055,"end":198.07,"text":"大概是什麼?譬如說教堂、醫療、他的審判,審判裡面的三項禁忌他的審判裡面的私寵等等我跟你講信仰我覺得信仰是最容易的啦你看我們的客家我們的北港的文化或什麼的其實我覺得在這裡面"},{"start":199.793,"end":211.354,"text":"我一直覺得你那個博工照護站或什麼那不是不好 那很好但我們如果以生活一點你去看台灣有很多的廟宇"},{"start":212.435,"end":234.484,"text":"他辦得非常好大家搶著要去拜拜還要去幹嘛要去讓神明給你加持啊什麼的那你覺得我們如果要推展客家的文化跟客家的語言我們有個長期的我們從客家的信仰裡面開始來著手主委你覺得可不可行"},{"start":234.875,"end":238.659,"text":"還有好的方法 引力體、信用、Mail地盤 這些綜合體所謂的綜合體 如果我提供的話 可能會通過最大的合法 接觸到最大的跟合格有關的理想、方向 還有一個方向"},{"start":254.721,"end":274.843,"text":"一個信仰也可以讓主委你說的年輕人去參與那就像剛剛主委你說的在這個信仰在這個裡面客家話講最多啦然後連客家的音樂也可以出來連客家的美食什麼都可以出來那我們可以辦全國一系列的這個"},{"start":277.364,"end":291.341,"text":"把錢花在刀口上然後讓大家覺得很有趣然後也是信仰去拜拜就能夠得到神明的庇佑然後這個是不分族群都可以去拜拜都可以得到這個神明的庇佑"},{"start":292.658,"end":311.958,"text":"我個人覺得如果這樣子去推廣大家又可以吃到美食又可以接觸到所有的文化然後你的客家幣在這邊花也可以促進這個地方的經濟然後跟廟宗教信仰結合起來我覺得那個是非常快速去發展的诶 諸葛你覺得"},{"start":312.978,"end":331.163,"text":"我們可以去討論研究看來是用的盤理的方式當然要跟新用錢結合我覺得就像主委講跟信仰結合然後我們一次也不要心太大我們有幾個"},{"start":335.12,"end":351.781,"text":"客家人常常去拜的比如說三三國王比如說土地公那你也可以先從土地公開始啊從北中南然後各地大的土地公我們今年先來辦這個啊然後北中南然後這樣子一連一連串的活動這樣子"},{"start":353.523,"end":372.677,"text":"我覺得那客家幣在這邊花也讓這些攤販這些什麼的大家可以賺到錢啊去到那邊可以接觸到很很實際的客家文化啦我是這樣建議啊那主委你思考一下啦齁那再來剛剛也有很多委員啊一直在講童話季啦主委我不知道啦齁"},{"start":378.703,"end":408.21,"text":"你對銅花的感覺我對銅花的感覺其實它不只是漂亮而已以前多少客家人是靠銅花吃飯的主委是不是啊有一段時間這樣對不對有一段時間這個銅花是養活了不少客家人像我們中部苗栗那邊也很多是靠這個啊做茶家做什麼的很多啊都是用這些啊"},{"start":409.926,"end":429.767,"text":"主委,我們如果去日本賞櫻花,你會去看一個地方而已嗎?還是去看很多地方?很多地方嘛,對不對?所以,很可惜耶,我們台灣的童話劇我一直看看看都給縣市政府辦,我不認為那是,也不是說他錯啦,但"},{"start":430.99,"end":454.827,"text":"就沒有一個一連串的北中南或什麼或是給國外的人來這個童話季對客家的精神有多重要然後在這裡面 我們童話季可以北中南三天的行程 五天的行程台灣人也可以去啊 外國人你也可以去推銷啊東南亞多少客家人 對不對我們是不是可以包裝一個這個行程 對不對"},{"start":457.659,"end":484.702,"text":"然後陳董事長也在大家互相配合然後去宣傳欸我覺得對不對然後如果你跟我剛講的信仰的又如果時間可以配合到的又可以重複欸我覺得以生活當中啦去推推廣這個客家文化不知道主委你的感覺我認同喔對審法地盤喔認明又有感啦阿故所的VN講的齁"},{"start":486.184,"end":500.455,"text":"旅行 旅遊 信用 文化 環境 全部都結合在一起還有食物最重要的 也要像現在這樣推動可以啦 我覺得我們可以試試看啦 好不好 主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時49分）我請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：召委好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委早。今天好多委員都請教你為什麼不送解凍案，我知道身為客委會的主委，在這邊一定要用客家話來回答，這是尊重我們的族群，你也知道我也算客家人，不過，我拜託主委，你用30秒用大家聽得懂的說一下，不然你會造成誤解呀！我覺得這一點很重要，我也是半個客家人，我真的請你用國語說一下給大家聽，30秒。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，跟大家報告，客委會的預算被刪了1.9億，但是還有留一個統刪，不足的636億要行政院自行調整，而這個636億要在哪一個部會、哪一個科目下刪多少的預算都沒有明講，在沒有明講的情況下，我們當然沒有辦法送這個解凍案，因為這個是刪除，如果客委會刪得比1.9億還多，那我們解凍的數字會跟著調、刪除的數字也會跟著調，所以這個是困難所在。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。其實你講的客家話我都聽得懂，但今天在國會殿堂，我們還是必須要讓全國民眾知道，不然到時候你被誤解，你就不知道要怎麼去跟誰說，對不對？","再來，今天大家也都一直在講要提振客家話，主委，你覺得一個文化、一個信仰，我們以臺灣的客家族群來講就好了，你覺得什麼最能夠引起共鳴，然後大家最容易了解？"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員指的是在臺灣還是客家的部分？"],["張委員宏陸：臺灣的客家，就在臺灣的客家，然後在文化、在語言，你覺得哪一種是最容易讓人家了解的？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我覺得如果要讓人能夠了解、親近……"],["張委員宏陸：這不是考題，你放心答。"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該是跟生活有關的才是影響民眾最大的。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯，但我們再限縮一點點，大概是什麼？"],["古主任委員秀妃：比如交通、醫療，還有生活裡面的產業經濟、市場等等。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講我覺得信仰是最容易的，你看我們客家的伯公文化或什麼的，我一直覺得你那個伯公照護站不是不好，那個很好，但我們如果生活一點，你去看臺灣很多的廟宇辦得非常好，大家搶著要去拜拜、要去讓神明加持，那你覺得我們如果要推展客家的文化跟客家的語言，我們長期的從客家的信仰開始來著手，主委，你覺得可不可行？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是好的想法，因為在信仰或廟裡面，我們也是一個綜合體，所謂的綜合體就是我去到那裡可能聽到最多的客家話，接觸到最多和客家有關的禮俗、風俗，這是一個方向。"],["張委員宏陸：一個信仰也可以讓主委你說的年輕人去參與，就像剛剛主委說的，在信仰裡面，客家話講最多，然後客家的音樂也可以出來，連客家的美食什麼都可以出來，我們可以辦全國一系列的活動，把錢花在刀口上，然後讓大家覺得很有趣，也是信仰，去拜拜就能夠得到神明的庇佑，不分族群都可以去拜拜、都可以得到神明的庇佑，我個人覺得如果這樣去推廣，大家可以吃到美食，又可以接觸到文化，然後你的客家幣在這邊花，也可以促進這個地方的經濟，跟廟宇、宗教信仰結合起來，我覺得那是可以非常快速去發展的，主委，你覺得呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這些我們可以來討論、研究看看用什麼方式辦理，當然要跟廟的信仰權結合。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我覺得就像主委講的，必須跟信仰結合，然後我們一次也不要心太大啦，國內有幾個客家人常常去拜的，比如說三山國王、比如說土地公，你也可以先從土地公開始，從北中南、各地大的土地公廟，我們今年先來辦這個啊，然後北中南這樣子一連串的活動。我覺得客家幣在這邊花，也可以讓這些攤販或大家都可以賺到錢，去到那邊也可以接觸到很實際的客家文化，我是這樣建議啦，主委，你去思考一下。","再來，剛剛也有很多委員一直在講桐花祭，主委，我不知道你對桐花的感覺是什麼，我對桐花的感覺是它其實不只是漂亮而已，以前多少客家人是靠桐花吃飯的，主委，是不是？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，有一段時間是這樣。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？有一段時間這個桐花養活了不少客家人耶，像我們中部、苗栗那邊也很多是靠這個啊，做木屐或是做什麼的，很多都是用這些。主委，我們如果去日本賞櫻花，你會只去看一個地方而已嗎？還是去看很多地方？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會去看很多地方。"],["張委員宏陸：很多地方嘛，對不對？所以很可惜耶，我一直在看我們臺灣的桐花祭都交給縣市政府去辦，我不認為那是……也不是說它錯啦，但就沒有一個一連串的、北中南或什麼，或是給國外的人來看這個桐花祭對客家精神有多重要，然後在這裡面，我們的桐花祭可以北中南三天的行程或五天的行程，臺灣人也可以去啊，外國人你也可以去推銷啊，東南亞多少客家人，對不對？我們是不是可以包裝一個這種行程？然後陳董事長也在，大家互相配合去做宣傳，我覺得可以這樣做。然後如果這跟我剛剛講的信仰活動，時間又可以配合到的話，又可以重複，我覺得可以在生活當中去推廣客家文化，不知道主委你的感覺是什麼？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我非常認同活動應該要在生活當中讓人民有感啦，所以委員提到的旅行、旅遊、信仰、文化、環境全部都是可以結合在一起的，這確實是可行的方向……"],["張委員宏陸：還有食物。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是最重要的，確實我們目前也是朝著這個方向來推動。"],["張委員宏陸：可以啦，我覺得我們可以試試看，好不好？主委。好，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","再來，我們請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df23d9eb701d0b683603e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222ae719f831ea1415b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:38:34 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我們請客委會主委好 請主委"},{"start":11.409,"end":37.233,"text":"我想請教谷主委其實我們非常支持要推展各家文化那也支持應該樂見青年族群可以透過音樂去接觸客語但是文化的推廣不能失焦也不能跟高度政治化的場域綁在一起在您的報告當中有提到說會與大港開唱合作推動客家流行音樂那當然除了"},{"start":37.773,"end":56.32,"text":"大崗開唱之後還有浪人記 啪啪嘉年華這些可是在大崗開唱今年的活動現場我們看到歌手楊淑雅她在台上說音樂是政治 政治是音樂然後女人是政治 身體是政治身分也是政治而且還感謝現場舉著台灣獨立旗幟"},{"start":58.701,"end":70.084,"text":"呼籲大家要支持罷免志工並支持替罷免花蓮團隊加油而且高喊大罷免大成功請問一下這樣的內容是文化推廣還是政治動員"},{"start":71.678,"end":78.54,"text":"阿雄,你跟米一鴻都跟政治有關,也跟政治有關我們的所有的私情都在文化、政治、沙非之間的窮一天"},{"start":90.244,"end":97.706,"text":"所以谷主委的意思是您支持大港開唱的這些團體在整個音樂會上就提出要叩召大家罷免,大罷免大成功對,我們支持用音樂專業來發揮文化的創作所以我們支持他們用音樂來發揮音樂是來推動大罷免這樣子"},{"start":116.63,"end":121.234,"text":"道理嗎 並不必說 要我相信 尊崇民意經營 共營一起把政治立場但是我們的支持 也要引起發展好 請問一下喔 請問一下國主委剛剛從您的回答 事實上我覺得這個已經跟政治不一樣了我們當然支持音樂 我們也支持年輕人 把青年的這個族群的"},{"start":135.766,"end":156.946,"text":"音樂 透過音樂來接觸客語可是當天我想這樣的一個狀況很明顯的就是在替這個罷團在這個罷免花蓮團隊加油那而且在支持罷免志工我覺得這樣子的狀況在整個音樂活動上面事實上是失焦的那聽起來您好像也不反對嘛那請問一下您在"},{"start":157.706,"end":165.713,"text":"這個我們的報告裡面說會跟大港開唱合作推動客家流行音樂那請問針對大港開唱你沒有補助經費嗎?Q&A以前有,但是今年沒有,今年沒有補助經費但是現在大港開唱雖然沒有補助經費,但是現在也有請學家的學生、學員進入學校所以我覺得也是一個正面的做法"},{"start":183.763,"end":200.986,"text":"大港開唱的團體也已經有對外也對媒體聲明說他們不會接受政府的補助這他們對媒體有這樣的說明那為什麼你們在這個報告裡面都還要在特別寫說你們要去跟大港開唱合作這個推廣推動流行客家音樂"},{"start":201.667,"end":230.145,"text":"不可以讓大港開場我們要替全台灣我想到有個有個陰謀線我覺得我們這種相關的團體其實非常多喔不要一直只侷限於大港開場我覺得有很多優質的團體只是我們都可以請他們一起來參與推廣我們客家活動那既然大港開場都說不要接受政府的補助我覺得我們也不必熱連去替人家冷屁股喔所以這個部分請我覺得要好好的慎選我們補助的團體那也有很多很多的客家團體"},{"start":231.005,"end":232.887,"text":"其實是很值得我們來補助的請主委要特別的來討論"},{"start":248.124,"end":263.46,"text":"我說他們不需要政府補助經費啊他們也公開這樣說另外我再想請教一下這個谷主委就是說我們現在立法院在第三會期的預算審查中有凍結了藝文傳播推展預算三千萬元"},{"start":264.441,"end":277.627,"text":"那當時是請客委會只要提出詳細的報告經內政委員會同意後就可以動質那請主委說明一下針對我們這個議員推展預算中凍結的3000萬客委會是不是已經有提出解凍報告"},{"start":278.533,"end":281.654,"text":"目前這樣的結凍有規矩 凍結案有規矩但是也要檢測到金費 金費在之前的政預算請問 主委 我的題目是針對藝文推展預算中所凍結的3000萬元 你們有沒有提出結凍報告"},{"start":302.299,"end":303.52,"text":"目前針對客委會我們所提出的凍結案你們有哪一個案子提出凍結報告"},{"start":310.579,"end":314.402,"text":"目前還沒有 為什麼還沒有目前都還沒有 因為要檢測到經費三儲醫生有六百三十六億韓盟客廳要省哪些部分所以我沒辦法整堆的部分提出來請問一下何時可以提出解凍還是有誰要求你們不要提出解凍嗎沒有 沒有 沒有"},{"start":334.837,"end":353.132,"text":"課題你們現在不解凍然後一直對外說因為預算被刪預算被凍所以沒有辦法推展什麼業務那我覺得這樣子就是有點自相矛盾我們很樂意你們隨時能夠提出解凍的一個報告那只要解凍報告提出來之後呢我們經過我們內政委員會同意當然就可以馬上來執行了"},{"start":353.953,"end":354.954,"text":"以這件我剛講的預算推展這個藝文推展預算這一件的3000萬"},{"start":372.168,"end":398.214,"text":"你們提出解凍報告有什麼困難嗎還是其實也不會影響到你們的預算呢這個部分我覺得請這個主委盡快把解凍的報告送上來我們就會把預算解凍讓你們可以正常的運作那另外就是我知道主委其實非常重視就是有關的課宇的推廣"},{"start":399.634,"end":402.296,"text":"那尤其是我想也有各項各項的活動那其實根據客委會公告委託的110年全國客家人口與語言基礎的調查也是我們目前可以看到最新的調查我們的客家民眾整體會說客語的比例已經從105年的46.8%"},{"start":419.788,"end":427.871,"text":"跌到110年的38.3%5年掉了8.5那會聽得懂課餘的比例也從64.3掉到56.4%那年輕族群更是斷崖式的流失13到18歲只有11.4%會說流利的課餘19到29歲則只有15.7%會說流利的課餘請問一下針對這個部分我們課委會有沒有什麼方式能夠來協助"},{"start":449.42,"end":460.362,"text":"這個這方面的能夠提升我們的這個年輕族群還有兒童能夠能夠把他的課餘能力增加感謝委員對於這件事來看我們目前全面各方面都要去照顧到養育法律來提升學校、社區特別家庭等等不過我要跟委員報告這裡要去跟他報告我們"},{"start":478.445,"end":493.321,"text":"重啟低估的 也會擬言複雜的 困難度跟複雜性所以我們也要讓醫生 嚴嚴不拿白請主委準備來怎麼做因為現在你說低估了 客語認證的複雜性那請問你們要怎麼來去"},{"start":496.184,"end":500.226,"text":"處理這個問題比方說我們在學校說學校開行業班有一個生育的學校我們就要教但是目前我們所在的社區有的營運沒有實質所以沒辦法教我們要不要變醫生來拚實質 入獄下去所以醫生要顧補目前課委會有編預算來培養實質嗎"},{"start":523.655,"end":526.938,"text":"為什麼你們不多編一點預算呢今年還是增加了很多預算不是嗎你只要能夠提出來你們所編列的預算是用在對的地方用在正確的地方基本上"},{"start":541.389,"end":547.756,"text":"我想我們之前也講過啦如果你運算不夠甚至也可以追加減啦你要提出來你要有完整的計畫提出來那今天我們都會提出的我剛才的意思是說我們那樣的經濟其實是炎炎不辣的啦我們要替國民 國民鄉 歐洲對 是這樣啦 就是我想"},{"start":559.668,"end":588.676,"text":"因為時間的關係 所以說我想因為其實近五年的課餘能力的認證的總參加人數跟通過率我想你那邊應該都有資料那其中19歲以下的年輕族群的通過人數跟比例有沒有實際的提升還有這些數據是否與政策的推廣的成果相符而且針對各縣市辦理的這個課餘認證班我希望你能夠提供我近三年補助金額參加人數跟課程後續的追蹤成效"},{"start":589.116,"end":594.689,"text":"我们共同来去探讨一下要怎么来去解决这样的事情好吗我请你在会后再提供谢谢感谢起名言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時38分）謝謝主席，請客委會古主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：古主委好。我想請教古主委，其實我們非常支持推展客家文化，也支持並樂見青年族群可以透過音樂去接觸客語，但是文化的推廣不能失焦，也不能跟高度政治化的場域綁在一起。在您的報告當中提到，你們會與「大港開唱」合作推動客家流行音樂，當然除了「大港開唱」之外還有「浪人祭」、「叭叭嘉年華」這些。可是我們在今年「大港開唱」的活動現場看到歌手楊舒雅在臺上說：音樂是政治，政治是音樂；女人是政治，身體是政治，身分也是政治。而且她還感謝現場舉著臺灣獨立旗幟，呼籲大家要支持罷免志工，並替花蓮罷免團隊加油，還高喊「大罷免、大成功」。請問一下，這樣的內容是文化推廣還是政治動員？"],["古主任委員秀妃：每一項都跟政治有關，也跟政治脫不了關係，我們所有的事情都和文化、政治、社會是一體的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以古主委的意思是，您支持「大港開唱」的這些團體在音樂會上號召罷免、「大罷免、大成功」這樣嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我支持他們在這樣的文化場合用他們的音樂專業來發揮，是用音樂發揮文化……"],["許委員宇甄：您支持他們用音樂來發揮，但音樂是用來推動大罷免，這樣子合理嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：並不是這樣講，我尊重每一個人的政治立場，但我是支持音樂的發展。"],["許委員宇甄：請問古主委，從您剛剛的回答，事實上我覺得這已經跟政治不一樣了，我們當然支持音樂，我們也支持年輕人，讓青年族群透過音樂來接觸客語，可是當天那樣的狀況很明顯的是在替罷團、花蓮罷免團隊加油，而且是在支持罷免志工，事實上我覺得這樣子的狀況在整個音樂活動上是失焦的，聽起來您好像也不反對嘛。","請問一下，您在報告裡面提到會跟「大港開唱」合作推動客家流行音樂，請問你們有針對「大港開唱」補助經費嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：去年及以前有，但是今年沒有補助經費，現在雖然沒有對「大港開唱」補助經費，他們自己也邀請客家的樂手、音樂人來唱客家歌，所以我覺得這是很正面的做法。"],["許委員宇甄：「大港開唱」的團體也已經對外、對媒體聲明他們不會接受政府的補助，他們對媒體這樣說明，那為什麼你們在報告裡面還要再特別寫到你們要去跟「大港開唱」合作推廣流行客家音樂？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想不是跟「大港開唱」，在全臺灣差不多有6個音樂節，因為這是指標性……"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得這種相關的團體其實非常多，不要一直只侷限於「大港開唱」，有很多優質的團體，其實我們都可以請他們一起來參與推廣客家活動，既然「大港開唱」都說不要接受政府的補助，我覺得我們也不必熱臉去貼人家冷屁股，所以這部分我覺得要好好慎選我們補助的團體，也有很多很多的客家團體是很值得補助的，主委要特別的去……"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為「大港開唱」有歷史，也是國內非常大的音樂節，所以可以跟我們合作，我們如果補助經費的話，客家音樂人表演的機會也會增加。"],["許委員宇甄：但是他們說他們不需要政府補助經費，他們也公開這樣說明了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我知道。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，我想再請教一下古主委，立法院在第3會期預算審查中凍結了藝文傳播推展預算3,000萬元，當時請客委會只要提出詳細的報告，經內政委員會同意後就可以動支。請主委說明一下，針對藝文推展預算中凍結的3,000萬，客委會是不是已經有提出解凍報告？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前凍結案有很多，但這些都牽涉到經費，而經費在之前的預算……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我的題目是針對藝文推展預算中所凍結的3,000萬元，你們有沒有提出解凍報告？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前還沒有，因為這全部……"],["許委員宇甄：那請問目前客委會對我們所提出的凍結案，你們有哪一個案子提出解凍報告？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前還沒有，因為這牽涉到……"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼還沒有？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前都還沒有，因為這牽涉到經費，刪除的預算有636億，還沒確定要刪哪一個部會，所以我們沒辦法針對這部分提出。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，何時可以提出解凍？還是有誰要求你們不要提出解凍嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有，要確定……"],["許委員宇甄：你們現在不解凍，然後一直對外說因為預算被刪、預算被凍，所以沒有辦法推展什麼業務，我覺得這樣有一點自相矛盾……"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是……"],["許委員宇甄：我們很樂意你們隨時提出解凍報告，只要解凍報告提出來之後，經過我們內政委員會同意就可以馬上執行了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員說明，確定刪除的預算是1.9億，凍結的是3.6億，但是在這個之外可能還有，因為……"],["許委員宇甄：以我剛剛講到藝文推展預算這一件的3,000萬，你們提出解凍報告有什麼困難嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為那是全部的案子，不是只有那一案……"],["許委員宇甄：還是其實也不會影響到你們推廣活動的預算呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會，會影響到。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分請主委儘快把解凍的報告送上來，我們就會把預算解凍，讓你們可以正常的運作。","另外，我知道主委其實非常重視有關客語的推廣，你們有各項的活動，根據客委會公告委託的110年全國客家人口與語言基礎調查，也是我們目前可以看到的最新調查，我們客家民眾整體會說客語的比例已經從105年的46.8%跌到110年的38.3%，5年掉了8.5%，那聽得懂客語的比例也從64.3%掉到56.4%，年輕族群更是斷崖式的流失，13歲到18歲只有11.4%會說流利的客語，19歲到29歲則只有15.7%會說流利的客語。請問一下，針對這部分客委會有沒有什麼方式能夠來協助提升我們年輕族群還有兒童的客語能力？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員，從這個數字來看，我們目前要全面、各方面都照顧到，才有辦法來提升學校、社區及家庭的客語能力，不過，我要跟委員報告，也藉這個機會跟大家報告，就是我們長期低估了語言復振的困難度和複雜性，所以我們現在的預算遠遠不夠……"],["許委員宇甄：那請問主委準備怎麼做？因為現在你說低估了客語復振的複雜性，那請問你們要怎麼去處理這個問題？"],["古主任委員秀妃：比如在學校來說好了，學校開客語班，有一個小孩來學客語，我們就要教他客語，但是現在就我們所知，有的學校因為沒有師資，所以沒辦法教，那我們是不是要編預算來聘師資？這個就牽涉到預算，所以預算要更多。"],["許委員宇甄：目前客委會有編預算來培養師資嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是不夠，我要說的是不夠。"],["許委員宇甄：不夠，那為什麼你們不多編一點預算呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們編了，但是立法院又要刪啊！"],["許委員宇甄：今年還是增加了很多預算，不是嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是不夠。"],["許委員宇甄：你只要能夠提出來你們所編列的預算是用在對的地方、用在正確的地方，基本上我想我們之前也講過了，如果你預算不夠，甚至也可以追加減，你要提出來，你要有完整的計畫提出來，其實我們都會支持的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：所以我說我們低估的意思是，我們現在的經費其實是遠遠不夠的，我們要提供各面向要有……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想因為時間的關係，關於近5年客語能力認證的總參加人數跟通過率，你那邊應該都有資料，其中19歲以下年輕族群的通過人數跟比例有沒有實際的提升？還有這些數據是否與政策推廣的成果相符？另外，針對各縣市辦理的客語認證班，我希望你能夠提供我近3年補助金額、參加人數跟課程後續的追蹤成效，我們共同來去探討一下要怎麼去解決這樣的事情，好嗎？再請你會後提供，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，我們來補充資料，感謝許委員。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：謝謝許宇甄委員，我藉這個機會補充一下，剛剛還是有很多委員都提到到底為什麼不送解凍報告，我覺得這個是主委應該要再跟大家多加說明的。另外，因為我自己作為大港開唱選區的委員，也知道他們雖然是民間團體，過去也一直因為被查水表，例如用言論審查的方式、思想審查的方式去干預他們藝術性的表演，所以今年他們也沒有領補助，那連沒有領補助都可以被查水表，可想而知過去他們是多麼的辛苦。大港開唱過去一直以來都是非常包容本土文化、扶植本土文化的音樂季，在這邊一定要幫他們來說明一下。","丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員不在。","再來請張宏陸召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfe3466b66a02a40ec03e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222a086e5678e26938075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:30:22 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谷主委有請好 請主委有煙齁"},{"start":9.619,"end":30.089,"text":"主委早安啊這個今天我們要來追蹤幾個之前有追蹤過的題目然後另外問追蹤一個之前追蹤過的題目啦另外問一個新的題目我們今天談的重點是客家這個客於友善環境的一個推廣那就本席的了解啦其實也從客委會第一會期的這個業務報告就有講我們希望這個推動"},{"start":31.149,"end":60.232,"text":"這個企業社會責任倡議語言多樣性鼓勵各個企業其實都要營造一個客語友善的環境不能只有說公部門的部分有人來做但企業的部分速度比較慢所以其實過去就本期的了解包含在你們第三會期的業務報告裡面也有寫叫做公式客語無障礙環境補助計畫有補助公部門也有補助民間單位讓他有客語的志工有口譯的設備完善客語的播音等等的一些"},{"start":61.113,"end":74.093,"text":"客語友善環境的這個使用的計畫其實做得不錯然後也有一些成果那它的概念當然要公共化多元化普及化跟生活化那我今天想特別問一下在私人企業的這一部分你們現在目前為止你們覺得效果怎麼樣"},{"start":75.62,"end":100.778,"text":"當然我們都覺得很不安全面很不安全面所以要好好在經濟部主導那間興業也要說私營的創意下去談的部分主委你可不可以舉一個例子告訴大家就是說以企業這個客語友善企業的角度來講有沒有幾個比較好的例子可以鼓勵大家做示範的"},{"start":101.494,"end":102.174,"text":"哪一家醫院表現特別好?"},{"start":128.504,"end":130.99,"text":"你就直接講因為我覺得鼓勵鼓勵做這樣好事的那企業我覺得很棒像人家立新醫院立新醫院很好"},{"start":136.338,"end":161.017,"text":"好我現在之所以會提這個問題是因為你曾經有叫做多元文化企業的社會責任客語友善企業獎也就是說我願意去花資源去投入去改善環境的這些企業我就給你光榮給你頒獎就像我剛講的你要把好的好人好事說出來嘛那我注意到第一屆這111年12月28號有做過一次第一次的頒獎第二屆則是在112年12月28第三屆好像就沒有下文了這個原因是什麼呢"},{"start":161.785,"end":165.771,"text":"目前還沒有有新的協議進行所以要感謝委員提醒我們就要主動跟協議院聯絡所以等於現在是遇到瓶頸的意思嗎沒錯"},{"start":178.628,"end":206.959,"text":"這個我希望還是在課委會在這個地方還是可以加大力度來做處理啦因為我覺得方向是正確的不能停在公部門這剛剛我已經講得很清楚那另外本席做個建議就是說在獎項的設計上他其實因為就本席的了解啦你要突然之間一次到完全到位其實恐怕很困難我想這也是為什麼你會陷入瓶頸的原因嘛因為你要一次把這個整個友善環境佈建起來你可能要花很多的資源多拼很多的人力之類的那我覺得也可以鼓勵企業用階段性的方式來處理"},{"start":207.739,"end":225.291,"text":"那換言之你要怎麼樣來鼓勵怎麼樣來補助呢其實你可以把比如說獎助的項目你可以分成階段啊比如說同職獎、銀職獎、金職獎嘛或者是一星到五星等等一方面這個現在已經有在做的他還可以再進步嘛本來我環境一般班60分的我到80分的時候我可以再得獎"},{"start":226.331,"end":244.834,"text":"那一般來講我如果從0分先到20分、40分你也可以讓他給予鼓勵我覺得這是把這個整體的門檻往下降的一種方式那我覺得用這樣的方式來推廣這個對於很多企業來講他可能會比較願意去嘗試去營造客羽的友善環境請問主委對這件事你建議再講吧現在我們在研究在幾個地方看得懂我們在訪問的客戶所以我們請專家、學生也可以說第一線的行業單位在討論看得懂"},{"start":256.072,"end":264.023,"text":"那這個部分你們討論的結果什麼時候會有一個比較具體的時間我是很擔心討論討論之後就沒下文啦這跟我待會的問題有關啦這樣三三要做什麼我們要請民間的單位來討論一下"},{"start":273.915,"end":290.693,"text":"好你們研究一下沒關係會後齁這個時間時間到的時候書面報告送過來好不好讓我們了解說這個事情的辦理的狀況我還是用鼓勵的心態來談這件事情就只要你可以做可以有進步甚至是你可以突破瓶頸這我想對於建構友善的客語環境它會是一個比較加分的項目"},{"start":291.594,"end":319.256,"text":"我剛之所以講時間很重要是因為我要問第二個題目也就是有關於這個也是本席之前雖然你那時候還沒有上任但本席那時候其實就問了就是有關於企業ESG納入客家語言推動的這件事情這同樣在客委會第一會期的業務報告裡面有講基於推動國家語言文化多樣性的目標這個當初就在1月跟3月邀集了經管會文化部 園民會等等都有來做協商希望可以修正這個經管會可以修正"},{"start":321.238,"end":344.554,"text":"上市上櫃公司切社會責任實務守則啊也就是說做哪一些符合ESG嘛那要把多元語言文化把它列入維護社會公益的實踐範疇換言之就是你如果推廣友善環境你也算是盡了一份社會責任這ESG的部分這樣把它納入這個推動項目那第一位其實本期問過之前的主委楊昌正主委就是說我們說那時候講說這個到底有沒有進度"},{"start":345.014,"end":362.404,"text":"然後他說那個時候開會對於條文守則的修正其實已經有一定的共識正在跟金管會討論然後那個時候他就講說這個這個一樣跟我講幾個月之內會給我一個交代但是喔 主委這個有時候現實比較骨感這一年過去了請問現在辦理的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":363.23,"end":375.66,"text":"我跟議員報告,我們內地的事件有看到其他題目也有其他事情,目前我們沒有在調查問題,也沒有在那裡說話所以目前就在這裡沒有在調查問題沒有辦法把推廣語言友善環境納入ESG的原因是什麼呢?是誰在反對呢?或者是說誰有什麼壓力?或者你有沒有困難?"},{"start":391.292,"end":398.42,"text":"因為那個說 其實他要依照施主心 依然還在占過大部分我們無法用我們強制力量去給他藥術 故所以會遇到這樣的困難"},{"start":411.005,"end":430.414,"text":"就本席的了解你只是把多元語言的環境建構納入也就是說你願意做這件事情你就算符合ESG嘛所以其實你把它納進去企業做或不做還是在他嘛企業願意做他就可以得分嘛那不願意做那他可以做別的項目來符合企業社會責任嘛所以我覺得這個好像不衝突了是不是請你再補充說明一下"},{"start":433.116,"end":440.402,"text":"目前還是有困難,但是本來年餘的條文要加以提供的部分,現在是這樣,要加以提供就好,所以沒提條文在裡面列"},{"start":454.417,"end":475.718,"text":"好你一樣把這個東西的推動進度包含你遇到的困難因為我想知道這整個概念遇到什麼樣的阻力啦你又遇到困難也許可以解決嘛對不對跨部會的溝通也許可以有一個好的結果所以你在推動中遇到什麼樣的困難你打算用什麼樣的策略來調整來因應然後同樣可以完成這個目標你一樣啦這個會後提供書面報告給本席好嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時30分）謝謝主席，古主委有請。"],["主席：請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。今天我要來追蹤一個之前有追蹤過的題目，並另外問一個新的題目。我們今天談的重點是客語友善環境的推廣，就本席的了解，其實從客委會第1會期的業務報告就有提到，你們希望推動企業社會責任、倡議語言多樣性，鼓勵各個企業都要營造一個客語友善的環境，不能只是公部門的部分有人來做，但企業部分的速度比較慢。過去就本席的了解，包含你們在第3會期的業務報告裡面也有寫到，叫做公事客語無障礙環境補助計畫，有補助公部門，也有補助民間單位，讓他們有客語的志工、口譯的設備、完善客語的播音等等的客語友善環境使用計畫，其實做得不錯，然後也有一些成果，它的概念當然要有公共化、多元化、普及化及生活化，我今天想特別問一下在私人企業的部分，目前為止你們覺得效果怎麼樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：當然，感覺上還沒有這麼全面，所以還要再進一步地主動跟企業或是私人場域來討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你可不可以舉一個例子告訴大家？以客語友善企業的角度來講，有沒有幾個比較好的例子可以鼓勵大家做示範的？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，過去我們有跟幾個醫院合作過，因為大家會去醫院看病，這是最需要人服務的地方，所以我們在醫院就有客語的服務，這個部分我覺得是很重要的，在桃園或是在臺南都有案例。"],["牛委員煦庭：哪一家醫院表現特別好？你就直接講，因為我覺得要鼓勵做這樣好事的企業，我覺得很棒。"],["古主任委員秀妃：中壢的壢新醫院。"],["牛委員煦庭：壢新醫院，很好。我現在之所以會提這個問題，是因為你曾經有提到多元文化企業社會責任客語友善企業獎，也就是針對願意花資源去投入、去改善環境的這些企業，你們就給他們光榮、頒獎，就像我剛剛講的，你要把好人好事說出來。但我注意到第一屆在111年12月28號第一次的頒獎，第二屆則是在112年12月28號，第三屆好像就沒有下文了，這個原因是什麼呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前還沒有新的企業加入，所以感謝委員的提醒，我們會主動與企業聯繫，目前是有……"],["牛委員煦庭：等於現在是遇到瓶頸的意思嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯！"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望客委會在這個地方還是可以加大力度來做處理，因為我覺得這個方向是正確的，不能停在公部門，這個剛剛我已經講得很清楚。另外本席做個建議，在獎項的設計上，就本席的了解，要突然之間一次完全到位其實恐怕很困難，我想這也是為什麼你會陷入瓶頸的原因，因為你們要一次把整個友善環境布建起來可能要花很多資源、多聘很多人力之類的，所以我覺得也可以鼓勵企業用階段性的方式來處理。換言之，你們要怎麼樣來鼓勵、怎麼樣來補助？其實你們可以把獎助的項目分成幾個階段，比如銅質獎、銀質獎、金質獎，或者是一星到五星等等，讓現在已經有在做的還可以再進步，也就是本來環境一般般60分的，到80分的時候可以再得獎。一般來講，如果是從0分先到20分、40分的，你們也可以給予他們鼓勵，我覺得這是把整體的門檻往下降的一種方式，我認為用這樣的方式來推廣，對於很多企業來講，他們可能會比較願意去嘗試營造客語的友善環境。請問主委對於這樣的事情有什麼想法？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們現在來研究、規劃看看這樣的方式是否可行，所以我們會找專家學者或是第一線的企業單位來討論看看。"],["牛委員煦庭：關於這個部分，你們討論的結果什麼時候會有一個比較具體的時間？我是很擔心討論之後就沒下文了，這跟我待會的問題有關。"],["古主任委員秀妃：3個月可以嗎？我們要請一些民間單位來討論一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你們研究一下，沒關係，會後、時間到的時候把書面報告送過來，好不好？讓我們了解這個事情辦理的狀況，我還是用鼓勵的心態來談這件事情，只要你們可以做、可以進步，甚至可以突破瓶頸，我想對於建構友善客語環境會是一個比較加分的項目。","我剛剛之所以講時間很重要，是因為我要問第二個題目，也就是有關於……雖然本席那時候還沒有上任，但其實本席那時候就問了關於企業ESG納入客家語言推動這件事情，同樣在客委會第1會期的業務報告裡面有講，基於推動國家語言文化多樣性的目標，當初在1月跟3月邀集了金管會、文化部、原民會等等，大家都有來做協商，希望金管會可以修正上市上櫃公司企業社會責任實務守則，也就是做哪一些符合ESG，把多元語言文化列入維護社會公益的實踐範疇。換言之，如果要推廣友善環境，你們也算是盡了一份社會責任，這是ESG的部分，把它納入推動項目。第1會期的時候，本席問過之前的楊長鎮主委，我那時候問他這個到底有沒有進度，他說那時開會對於條文守則的修正其實已經有一定的共識，正在跟金管會討論，那時他一樣跟我講，說在幾個月之內會給我一個交代，但是主委，有時候現實比較骨感，一年過去了，請問現在辦理的情況怎麼樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，我上任時就有看到這樣的題目，也知道這樣的事情，目前我們沒有在條文中納入剛剛說的，所以目前進度就是這樣，沒納入條文……"],["牛委員煦庭：卡住了？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有辦法把推廣語言友善環境納入ESG的原因是什麼？是誰在反對？或者是誰有什麼壓力？還是你有沒有什麼困難？你跟大家說明一下。"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該這樣說，其實這也要企業有自主性，本身的意願還是占了大部分，我們沒辦法用強制的力量去約束他們，所以才會遇到這樣的困難。"],["牛委員煦庭：就本席的了解，這只是把多元語言環境建構納入，也就是說，當你願意做這件事情就符合ESG，所以把它納進去，企業做或不做還是在它嘛！企業願意做，它就可以得分，不願意做，那它可以做別的項目來符合企業社會責任，我覺得這個好像不衝突，是不是請你再補充說明一下？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前還是有困難，本來我們要在原有的條文加入推廣的部分，並納入其成果，想加入這個部分，同時也納入成果，所以目前沒有在條文裡面明列。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，一樣把這個東西的推動進度給我，包含你們遇到的困難，因為我想知道這整個概念遇到什麼樣的阻力，遇到的困難也許可以解決，對不對？跨部會溝通也許可以有一個好的結果。你們在推動中遇到什麼樣的困難，打算用什麼樣的策略來調整、因應，同樣可以完成這個目標？一樣在會後提供書面報告給本席，好嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝牛委員。"],["主席：我們請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df4dfec5cb880dbc9303e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222ae3b98117f6536c6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:23:07 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國會都在70個重點發展期用力 要等於國會總統存立 要在目前的政策 針對國會總統來判決"},{"start":358.067,"end":374.689,"text":"對,因為畢竟在新北就是無料理嘛,然後這個我們要怎樣去把它推廣當然啦,就是要經費嘛,那經費我們要怎樣預祝,包含找新北市大家共同來配合"},{"start":375.909,"end":386.432,"text":"讓這個地方能發展為客家一個里這是一個很重要的,那是一個山區嘛那是我們未來要推動的目標好不好好,沒問題沒問題,現在我們在跟鐵縫,跟鐵縫在交通看看鐵縫有沒有需要,我們在添置"},{"start":398.407,"end":417.432,"text":"好的好的好那我們都期待啦那我們未來還是推動一些大廠的就是那個不管是客家大戲啦還是一些子風車就是來吸引我們一些小朋友大家共同就是用我們刻意的來煽導的方式應該效果會不錯吧好謝謝好感謝"},{"start":428.237,"end":428.4,"text":"好 請留下"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時23分）主席、與會同仁，請我們的古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。針對我們刪減的預算，我看有1.9億，裡面就列入五項，包含伯公照護站、客家的推廣、產業的推廣、藝文的推廣、2個園區的營運，這1.9億的刪減對你整個運作有沒有受影響？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有受到影響，剛剛委員所提到這幾項，我們減低補助金額、給地方的金額減少、減低辦理場次，都有受影響。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委在推廣客家方面，包含本席比較注重的客家語言推廣，我們現在還有凍結3.6億，這對整個客委會的運作是一個大大的打擊，我們還是要趕快來做解套。","本席這邊跟你探討一下2012年開始舉辦的幼幼客語認證，你現在年齡又下修到4歲，4歲就可以來報名。那整個幼童的推廣成效現在是怎樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，去年（113年）有八千多人來參加，今年度是五千多人，有減少，我們會來探討原因，包括辦理的場次以及是不是我們辦得還不夠吸引幼兒來參加。"],["吳委員琪銘：客家語言的流失速度是真的非常快，我看我的選區，在新北的客家人口應該有超過60萬，光是土城、三峽等區域的人口比例也是非常高，但是我看到一些客家小朋友現在都是不講客語，這是很嚴重的問題，我們要怎樣來做推廣呢？是不是除了客家語言的推廣讓他們有一些學習的認證以外，還是辦一些……我記得過去我們辦了一個客家大院，然後客家大院全部都是用客家語言，我們要怎樣讓他們來欣賞客家戲、來學習客家語言？我認為這個成效都不錯啊！","還有一點，這個月的19號，也就是這個禮拜六土城有個桐花祭，新北就是土城這個場次，這個場次一辦都是有好幾萬人，所以我們要怎樣去推廣？你說你們錢撥給新北市，但是我先問一下主委，你那一天會不會到？"],["古主任委員秀妃：很抱歉，我可能沒辦法到，但是我的同事會到，像副主委或是主秘、處長等這些會到。"],["吳委員琪銘：副主委跟主秘？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為就是有一個差別的待遇，錢是中央出的，由中央補助，但是到了那一邊，我看要說話的機會也是不大，所以關於這一點，我認為花的錢還是要花在能夠真正宣導我們客家族群，因為每年的桐花祭辦得非常成功，所以我們還是要跟他們結合，看怎樣來辦，也都互相尊重，就是客委會有到，我們地方民意代表若沒說話那也OK，但是起碼我們出經費也是要適度地尊重我們一下，這一點應該要跟新北市政府做溝通。","另外，剛才蘇巧慧提到三峽的五寮里，五寮里是一個客家里，這個客家里我看是由客委會這邊來做輔導，我認為也是輔導得不是很成功，這一點是你們要加強的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，確實我們過去都在70個重點發展區來著力，對於比較小的庄、村里，目前我們有很多政策要針對比較小的庄頭來辦理。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為畢竟在新北就是五寮里，而我們要怎樣去做推廣，當然就是要經費，那經費我們要怎樣挹注？包含找新北市共同來配合，讓這個地方能發展為客家的一個里，這是很重要的，那是一個山區，是我們未來要推動的目標，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，沒問題、沒問題，我們會跟地方溝通，看看地方有什麼需求，我們會來協助。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，我們都期待，未來還是要推動一些大場的活動，不管是客家大戲還是紙風車，都能吸引一些小朋友，活動使用客語，這樣的宣導方式應該效果會不錯吧！"],["古主任委員秀妃：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝吳委員。"],["主席：請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df8b2c31aa2fad361503e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222a66a45ae5360df2805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:14:38 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可不可以在這邊先請妳說明解凍報告真的是因為你們不送 才沒有辦法審理嗎?請問 今天報告不是我們不送 凡是投錢 有業益的部分 公募問題的因素就是636億 而我們持行刪除的部分 我們不在經驗的一端 故事會影響到我們的學費 多大會刪1.91 還會比1.91更高"},{"start":38.134,"end":62.558,"text":"好謝謝主委的說明我在這邊再幫主委再補充一下其實總預算從公告到現在也不過三個禮拜的時間光是這個準備的期間現在就要馬上送解凍報告根本非常不合情合理更何況這個解凍報告的專案報告的用意就是希望說預算執行之後看是不是有改善的空間再來專案報告嘛"},{"start":63.038,"end":90.488,"text":"那你總預算到現在也才公告三周那你要去怎麼檢視這個預算執行期間到底有沒有改善所以現在就要送解凍報告真的是非常不合理的一件事情再加上剛剛主委說的因為立法院送出去的時候636億通刪並沒有告訴各個部會到底要各部會怎麼樣去分配自己要刪凍的金額導致現在各個部會都還不知道最後我到底還有哪些"},{"start":91.708,"end":117.551,"text":"項目哪一些預算可能會被刪到連部會自己都不知道因為立法院沒有給啊所以很多國民黨跟民眾黨的委員還在講說為什麼解斷報告不趕快送出來不就他們害的所以我是在這邊替你們喊冤啦真的非常委屈喔那前面我也要講一下因為其實剛剛有委員提到說你們過去到現在即便刪了1.9億可是還是比去年多了3億"},{"start":118.832,"end":122.295,"text":"那這個真的就不會影響你們預算執行嗎?真的不會影響你們在地方上推廣客家文化的行動嗎?民營報告一定有影響的,目前很寬度影響的用一個例子來講,剛才關心的白宮遮風站民營的站點數省重"},{"start":140.351,"end":149.893,"text":"明年要判理的內容增加,從今年來說增加的強硬,因為那批餐廳的事情,要經費一定要增加要增加的經費,雖然說有增加,但是削減的以後不太會因為餐廳輸多,所以目前已經輸影響了所有的餐廳,三百分之四七同步供待,要那些吃吃的影響"},{"start":170.1,"end":179.324,"text":"好謝謝主委的說明所以很明顯嘛剛剛也有一些委員自己提到說雖然說什麼三了1.9億但是還是增加了3億但實質上光是這個博光照護站就已經實質受影響了那我在這邊要提另外一點對於我高雄這邊的業務是比較有影響的因為裡面其實有一筆是這個客家語言升職計畫的委辦費被減列了1060萬元那這個"},{"start":198.132,"end":214.32,"text":"我很擔心的是 是不是會直接影響到 客語能力認證的 施策的場次目前我們清涼的肥膚 也會有影響所以我們清涼的部分 不會受到影響但是沒有確定以後的財產 也會有多少影響"},{"start":223.7,"end":240.237,"text":"好 這個是我非常擔心的喔因為其實我們高雄也有四個是這個客家相關的莊就是包括美濃 山林 六龜甲仙嘛那其實在我們市區其實客家的人口也不少那像我們這邊古山就也有近兩成那還有三明也是兩三成"},{"start":240.817,"end":263.786,"text":"那我很擔心說這樣子預算刪減下去或是這個凍結到時候沒有辦法解凍的話是不是會影響到我們這個失策的場次因為其實我也知道說像我們高雄真的很努力在推廣我們高雄的市府的課委會也是很努力所以這種本土文化的保存工作啊我們也是一直有在鼓勵大家趕快來考課餘這個能力的認證那甚至還提高了課餘能力的這個認證的獎勵金那我很擔心說如果到時候真的"},{"start":269.608,"end":283.333,"text":"預算被迫減少然後考試的場次影響到的話那等於是前功盡棄我們這麼地方這麼努力的在做這個本土文化的保存跟推廣然後結果中央被因為特定的委員把這個預算刪掉"},{"start":284.993,"end":302.216,"text":"導致我們推廣的這個場次進行不下去所以我這個是非常擔心啦所以我在這邊也是希望像主委剛剛講的還是盡量到時候如果預算可以有調配的空間的話盡量不要去影響到能力認證這方面的場次跟推廣"},{"start":302.897,"end":312.041,"text":"雖然他可以補充,可是他的母親也受到影響,因為他的生存率是60%他在櫃台的一部分,所以每一項的宣傳都會很感受包括他的認真,比方說像認真,宣傳會跟他講要怎麼報名,要怎麼用"},{"start":325.646,"end":331.729,"text":"感謝 感謝 因為那些人 人就不提供 有人要諮詢所以目前來說 那些受到影響的就報名的人數 可能沒那麼多對 這就是我擔心的對 光是你們宣傳費如果不夠 大家連考試的資訊都不知道"},{"start":344.494,"end":346.736,"text":"那可能報名的人次就受影響那整個能夠被保存的這次能夠因為考試而推廣這個課與認證的範圍又縮小了這就是我最擔心的一件事情那最後還有點時間我來補充爭取一下因為我知道說你們今年有這個課加幣的計畫"},{"start":361.61,"end":371.034,"text":"那我不知道說這個到底接下來會不會因為你們的可能通商那個636億被影響到或者是你們現在手上的31.9億還有凍結3.6億的目前的經費而受到影響那我希望不會"},{"start":377.017,"end":403.485,"text":"那如果不会的话在这样的前提之下可以顺利的推行客家币的计划因为我知道里面其实政策蛮好的就是说18到20岁的本国的青年可以来参与抽签然后抽出40万份然后通过客语认证的还有客语家庭的人就可以来领然后去相关的这个客家的店家消费嘛那我目前看到的是因为你们目标是3000家可是目前大概只招到了800间"},{"start":404.685,"end":432.119,"text":"相關的客家店家那我在想是不是因為你們把相關的範圍只限縮在客家文化重點發展城鄉裡面的行政區呢如果可以是不是再放寬就像我剛剛提到的我們高雄市區雖然高雄有四個六龜美濃然後山林甲仙除了這四個之外其實其他的行政區的客家人口也不少啊那像我們古山像我們三明鳳山其實都"},{"start":433.26,"end":444.724,"text":"也有一定的客家比例的人口,那是不是也可以把這些行政區放進去,不要只限縮在客家文化發展的城鄉區呢?感謝李燕,李燕提的提議,我們待會在幾次研究看它是否有法律擴大或是一般的,一般的提起以外共學的重點,也要我們研究"},{"start":457.301,"end":484.047,"text":"好謝謝主委那我的目的當然是希望說如果這一些城鄉發展區可以優先啦那重點是這一些使用客家幣的人口他們去客家的店家使用的時候可以有更多客家文化的交流嘛那包括說他的店家本身就是推廣客家文化的或者是他的店員是可以講客家話的那如果我們市區也有這樣的店家其實也可以把他們納入那目標就是三千間都可以都可以招進來嘛"},{"start":485.229,"end":485.59,"text":"好 謝謝主委 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請主席媽咪一樣齁聲音沒有出來請董事簽署一下好嗎請董事簽署一下謝謝"},{"start":30.482,"end":34.163,"text":"主委,您是否同意預算凍結不是刪除?當然,當然,凍結是凍結,但是某幾年以前還是做我們的用"},{"start":50.317,"end":70.897,"text":"對 但是說凍結不是刪除嘛 你也是同意嘛好 但是我們立法院是要行政機關就是要有完整的報告就能啟動解凍的程序 就進入解凍的程序 對嗎"},{"start":72.306,"end":77.15,"text":"目前這樣,但是有過度沒確定的因素像剛才說的,在二、三度的時間沒錯,是說沒有確定沒有預算實行政機關的工作,沒有去做嘛所以說,所以在目前我們沒有看到我們的"},{"start":96.423,"end":123.213,"text":"客家委員會向立法院提出任何一份正式書面 解凍的書面所以到目前為止也沒有提出嘛 是不是目前沒有提出 那個引擎 當時在二三度的時間 同山的時間有六八三十六一對啊 就是說我們是為什麼不提出呢"},{"start":123.773,"end":144.519,"text":"我們要提出才能解凍嘛沒有確定也是這個行政部門要去算啊因為整個一個會計單位我們整個會計單位到現在沒有去做自己該值的預算還有說該要提出報告"},{"start":145.339,"end":153.322,"text":"我們就可以解凍但是呢你也沒有提出報告啊也不願意提出報告所以說是為什麼呢還是說因為行政院沒有叫你不要提出就不要解凍沒有沒有沒有我跟議員報告因為當時森醫生有六百"},{"start":164.645,"end":166.326,"text":"所以說我們是沒有刪除的還是一樣可以用嘛對不對所以我們行政院現在公開說無法確認"},{"start":190.201,"end":194.918,"text":"就是像你说的剩余数难以题解动案"},{"start":196.531,"end":214.7,"text":"我們三讀通過你們就來用後面的行政作業就要去做嘛所以都該做的沒有去做所以根本就是偷換概念凍結預算與刪減預算是完全不同的機制連這個國小的學生都知道所以解凍案應該應對就是會刪除的但是凍結的部分預算"},{"start":224.645,"end":231.471,"text":"所以但是我看你的報告裡面都有寫你們做的哪一些啊對不對所以說不送申請凍結的方案但是呢說我們立法院讓你無法推動業務不是我們喔所以說你不要提醒人家要凍結要刪除要刪喔要再刪一段要再刪一段要刪一段要刪一段要刪一段要刪一段要刪一段要刪一段"},{"start":253.029,"end":259.731,"text":"就會進入程序但是完全沒有所以不是說凍結不等於刪除所以我們在我們的審查的預算我們共同減了我們是43億我們的編列的預算114年編列的預算43億7000多萬"},{"start":277.495,"end":278.776,"text":"我們錢只有一億九千多萬,多了四億多而已,其他都不能用"},{"start":293.271,"end":295.952,"text":"是目前為止我們看你的運作你報告裡面你還是有在運作沒有提出的解凍的編列的預算所以你怕說因為你今年14年申請太多了我們解凍後你花不完用不完所以你不敢來申請解凍"},{"start":315.503,"end":316.204,"text":"根據我們的經濟數據因為時間的關係全台詐騙集團現在已經標高了週一"},{"start":331.677,"end":356.064,"text":"單日採選就高達2億8千多萬全年就是顯示破百億啦大家的資料都知道我們所有的全民都知道說禍害年齡就是50歲以上為最多其中65以上的長者就被比較高主委很清楚我們客家族群高齡的人口比我們全國平均"},{"start":361.286,"end":368.968,"text":"就是比較聽不懂中文所以呢他只要講客家他辨識這些詐騙的就是能力比較低但是呢我們在這個部分呢我請教我們客委會防詐的議題是客家"},{"start":381.132,"end":385.096,"text":"的版本,有製作嗎?有影片嗎?有海報嗎?有手冊嗎?我們沒有看到我們向議員報告,我們今年要的沒選票,三個百分之六十,該黨都沒辦法做的,過去我們都沒有做但是呢,這個媒體說,高達一億多啊,高達一億多還在可以用嗎?"},{"start":405.776,"end":422.221,"text":"但是你們就把別人編列的大片的影片放在自己的客家的網站自嗨所以沒有達到我們要幫助的金額所以我現在要求你可以你要去要做這件事情這個也是公共議題所以說我們編列的媒體宣傳意義多"},{"start":433.985,"end":436.826,"text":"可以再做這一塊嗎?刪除了百分之三十五 更是凍結百分之三十你也自己講的所以這個不反我希望但是關於這個關鍵"},{"start":457.25,"end":460.213,"text":"這個關鍵希望說我們減少詐騙的你完全沒有去做這意義多來去做什麼還有我們現在目前我們有很多的沒錯 但是我們有現在的我們全國的我們看你們網站"},{"start":479.992,"end":500.243,"text":"科家认证今年到底有没有办影响有多少学生跟教师但是我们看你们的网站也有在进行中因为我们是冻结的费用是部分还有很多的经费还是积蓄用但是你是不是你可以自己打自己的嘴巴看有没有很痛呢"},{"start":500.563,"end":506.485,"text":"但是你講的跟做的完全是一個詐騙人的形式不是依法行政也沒有依理的定則去執行所以說全國小型的藝文競賽目前的進步還是一樣可以再進行我們看到的就是這樣子的畫面所以我們希望不要就是去騙我們"},{"start":526.733,"end":530.758,"text":"平民百姓這個都是我們可以去做的所以我們可以了如果你說這樣子的話我請你全國 給我一分鐘客家族群收遍的人數金額"},{"start":542.312,"end":552.038,"text":"大片的樣態,統計給我兩天,統計給我送到我的公司看嗎?有困難,因為你沒有去做該做的事情當然有困難還有我們立法院在行,我們的監督局有意有據"},{"start":562.884,"end":566.946,"text":"不要嘴巴一直在說我們凍結 凍結 沒法執行我們從今年到現在已經四月份了我們行政院跟各個部會沒有提出就是我們的"},{"start":588.275,"end":591.6,"text":"凍結的方案怎麼樣去解凍呢這個就是部會的工作要去做的我們希望我們要拿出證據也拿出你的行政的職責不要再去欺騙我們平民百姓了"},{"start":605.379,"end":608.504,"text":"以上希望你在兩天不行是不是一個禮拜拿出我們因為你有媒體費你要拿出我們柯家族群被受騙的資料給我一個禮拜謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時4分）有請主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主委，請教主委是否同意預算凍結不是刪除？"],["古主任委員秀妃：當然不是刪除，是凍結。"],["麥委員玉珍：你也是同意？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是凍結，但是沒有解凍前，還是無法支用的。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是是凍結不是刪除，你也同意嘛！我們立法院是要行政機關有完整的報告就能啟動解凍程序，也就是進入解凍的程序，對嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前是這樣，但是有很多不確定的因素，像剛才說的，在二、三讀的時候有636億……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，你們說沒有確定、沒有預算，因此行政機關的工作沒有去做，所以……"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們目前沒有看到客家委員會向立法院提出任何一份正式的解凍書面，到目前為止都沒有提出，是不是？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前沒有提出是因為當時在二、三讀的時候……在統刪的時候有636億要刪，但是我們各部會……"],["麥委員玉珍：為什麼不提出呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為還沒有確定……"],["麥委員玉珍：要提出才能解凍嘛，沒有確定也是行政部門要去算……"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是並沒有給我們相關的數額……"],["麥委員玉珍：整個會計單位到現在沒有去做自己該做的預算，提出報告就可以解凍，但是你們沒有提出報告，也不願意提出報告啊！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我要跟委員說……"],["麥委員玉珍：這是為什麼呢？還是行政院叫你們不要提出？不要解凍？"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是，跟委員報告，當時審預算有636億的部分要自己來做調整，這個數額太大了，所有數額……"],["麥委員玉珍：是啊，是要調整，但是我們的預算……"],["古主任委員秀妃：所有部會要刪多少都不知道，這樣送出來的話，我們也都不知道要怎麼處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，所以我們沒有刪除的還是一樣可以用，對不對？行政院現在公開說無法確認……"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是和委員報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：就是像你說的，剩餘數難以提解凍案……"],["古主任委員秀妃：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們三讀通過之後，你們就要做後面的行政作業嘛，該做的沒有去做，所以你們根本就是偷換概念，凍結預算與刪減預算完全是不同的機制，連國小的學生都知道，所以解凍案應該……"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是，跟委員報告，636億不是解凍，636億是刪除喔！是刪預算……"],["麥委員玉珍：凍結的部分是依法處理，但是我看你們的報告都有寫你們做了哪一些，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：要跟委員報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：不送申請解凍的方案，但又說我們立法院讓你們無法推動業務，不是我們喔！你們不要推卸責任……"],["古主任委員秀妃：要跟委員報告，這636億不是凍結是刪除，是刪喔！"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，有刪除、有凍結，所以凍結要提出書面報告就會進入程序……"],["古主任委員秀妃：至於要刪多少，我們客委會除了1.9億以外，還要再刪。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是完全沒有，所以凍結不等於刪除，我們在審查預算……"],["古主任委員秀妃：但比起之前刪除的預算還會有更多……"],["麥委員玉珍：114年編列預算四十三億七千多萬，我們只減了一億九千多萬，凍了四億多而已，其他都不能用，但是……"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，前面還有一個刪除數額是636億，這還沒有分配到所有的部會……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是到目前為止，我們看你們的運作，你們的報告裡面說你們還是有在運作，為什麼沒有提出解凍，你們是怕今年（114）年申請太多了，解凍後會花不完、用不完，所以你們不敢來申請解凍？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這不是事實，不是委員說的這樣，之前……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果不是這樣子的話，因為時間的關係……根據警政署統計，現在全臺詐騙集團詐騙金額已經飆高，週一單日財損就高達二億八千多萬，全年破百億，大家都知道這個資料，我們全民也都知道受害年齡以50歲以上為最多，其中65歲以上長者的比例較高。主委很清楚客家族群的高齡人口在全國平均占比，他們比較聽不懂中文，他們多講客家話，所以他們辨識詐騙的能力比較低。在這個部分，我想請教客委會，對於防詐的議題有製作客家的版本嗎？有影片嗎？有海報嗎？有手冊嗎？我們沒有看到……"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，我們今年的媒宣費刪了60%，很多都沒辦法做了，過去我們都有做，但是刪了60%這麼大的金額……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，但是你們的媒宣費高達一億多，這是可以用的……"],["古主任委員秀妃：還不夠、還不夠，客家很弱勢……"],["麥委員玉珍：你們把別人做的詐騙影片放在自己的客家網站自high，所以沒有達到我們要幫助的……"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是本來就應該要做的事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我現在要求你們，你們可不可以去做這件事情，這也是公共議題，你們編列媒體宣傳費一億多……"],["古主任委員秀妃：刪掉60%……"],["麥委員玉珍：可以再編列這一塊嗎？可以再做這一塊嗎？刪除了……你說凍結30%，你自己講的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：刪掉60%，沒這麼多經費了，再者我們過去做了這麼多的宣傳都是為了客家的聲量、能見度，但是現在大大減少了。"],["麥委員玉珍：關鍵在於我們希望減少詐騙，你們完全沒有去做，這一億多拿去做了什麼？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我要跟委員報告，我們不是沒有做，我們有做，只是整個能量都變少了，因為立法院刪掉60%的預算……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，我們現在看你們的網站，客家認證今年到底有沒有辦？影響多少學生跟教師？但是我們看你們的網站也有在進行中，因為我們是凍結費用，這部分有很多經費還是繼續用，但你們是不是自己打自己的嘴巴？看看有沒有很痛呢？你們講的跟做的完全是照命令行事……"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，我們對於延續性的計畫有繼續進行……"],["麥委員玉珍：不是依法行政，也沒有依你們的職責去執行，所以全國小型藝文競賽目前的進度……"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為預算被刪而影響我們增加的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：還是一樣可以進行，我們看到的就是這樣子的畫面，所以希望不要騙我們平民百姓，這都是你們可以去做的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：要跟委員報告，我們絕對不會騙，我們有做，但是可以說……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果你這樣子說的話，我請你們統計全國客家族群受騙的人數、金額、詐騙樣態給我，2天之內統計給我，送到我的辦公室，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，有困難。"],["麥委員玉珍：有困難？因為你們沒有去做該做的事情，當然會有困難。"],["古主任委員秀妃：在警政署裡面，對於受騙的民眾沒有分任何族群、沒有分任何族群……"],["麥委員玉珍：還有我們立法院的監督權是有依有據，所以你們要積極對解凍的事情做報告……"],["古主任委員秀妃：假設要做這些事情，請委員會多給我們預算，我們就來做這件事。"],["麥委員玉珍：不要嘴巴一直說凍結無法執行，每天……"],["古主任委員秀妃：客委會的預算已經夠少了，所以要請委員增加預算給我們。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個費用從今年到現在已經4月份了，行政院跟各個部會沒有提出，對於凍結的方案要怎麼樣去解凍，這就是部會要去做的工作，我們希望你們要拿出證據，也拿出你們的行政職責，不要再欺騙我們平民百姓了。","2天不行，希望你們是不是一個禮拜拿出……因為你們有媒體費，你們要拿出客家族群被騙的資料給我，在一個禮拜之內，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：恕難辦理。"],["主席：請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160225","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df9ca8d00c3014413603e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222a0c38360a1b553cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:56:21 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額 額 額 額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額"},{"start":76.462,"end":97.977,"text":"業務費刪除1.9億這個是光課委會的部分嘛那還有一個行政院被統刪676億請問課委會現在已經收到主席處說我們課委會必須要允諸多少目前還沒有也要630、6100的行政院自行調整的部分目前還沒有有納稅所以"},{"start":101.144,"end":130.423,"text":"怎麼樣補助所以這一筆補助經費一定會被影響到啊怎麼樣增加你剛剛的回應也沒有說要怎麼樣增加我也不懂我也不知道你要怎麼樣可以增加嘛所以很可惜齁其實今年是鼓諸位可以開始好好執行賴總統對於好好在客家庄生活以及好好推廣客語的一個工作年那國家的稅收也足以讓客委會可以多做事"},{"start":131.827,"end":139.832,"text":"主委,你原本想要多做的事情是什麼?跟議員報告,我們今年有幾個行政的計劃,剛才講到的核打B,那些過程的部分,我們要強硬,我們今年強硬諮詢委員會,特別強硬的支持內部,要去建立那個一級,還有"},{"start":155.26,"end":158.183,"text":"現行目前除了新的計劃以外還有QA延續新的計劃我們都要擴大工程 拔萊攀離 都需要經費所以產業以後雖然還有增加 但是那是不來的"},{"start":177.624,"end":193.312,"text":"簡單來講 舊的計劃可以持續做 例如博工造戶站這個做但是因為有刪除的預算博工造戶站也被刪除了嘛文化幣是新的預算 所以文化幣是可能不知道怎麼樣開始進行嗎"},{"start":196.819,"end":204.305,"text":"黑咖啡的部分我們沒辦法全面的去發,要有一些策略去感受,就等於沒辦法全面"},{"start":213.382,"end":242.555,"text":"所以就變成只能逐步的來推廣我覺得非常可惜那台灣是所有華人地區唯一有一個客家的算客委會一個唯一有客委會當部會的一個國家那最主要的目的要推廣好好客庄生活之外對於客語的推廣也是我們急需要努力的方向也要持續努力的工作"},{"start":243.075,"end":260.207,"text":"那吸引青年然後做客家幣等等的我覺得都是非常好的一個方向那如果不能做我必須要把目前我們所有刪除客委會預算的委員我必須要把他們的名字念出來啦"},{"start":266.311,"end":272.552,"text":"有新竹的包含在我們委員會裡面雖然在我們委員會審查的時候他"},{"start":273.854,"end":302.225,"text":"沒有刪到這一筆但是徐欣穎委員在二讀會的時候是舉手刪除課委會預算林思明委員在二讀會的時候是舉手刪除課委會預算傅坤祺委員在二讀會的時候是舉手刪除我們的預算徐巧欣委員號稱課級委員在二讀會的時候也是舉手刪除課委會的預算所以針對這幾個委員我必須要把他們點名"},{"start":303.704,"end":328.503,"text":"所有其他包含新住民委員包含原住民委員對他們新住民的權益對他們原住民的權益想盡辦法希望增加照顧只有這四個客委會的委員在院會的時候去大砍客委會的預算我覺得這件事情必須要講出來當然不是主委你講這是我講那所以最後"},{"start":329.023,"end":341.07,"text":"希望客委會在雖然非常辛苦的狀況下我還沒問你凍結有多少?凍結目前是30%30%推算下來差不多3.61%但是...哇!那非常大喔!其實3.9%跟3.6%那是過去兩年來合理費沒的狀況"},{"start":354.828,"end":382.686,"text":"歷年被刪跟凍最多的一次嗎?沒錯那我請問妳被凍結30%到目前行政院沒有辦法算出來那676億大家怎麼分配的狀況下會影響到客委會的哪一個業務的工作?全面都會影響到譬如阿姨妳的譬如說我們的核架工業管磨砂要請一萬人去參加目前還在核核磨法徒庭堂去判理"},{"start":383.763,"end":389.288,"text":"所以這一個客家歌謠比賽他可能要等到凍結之後才有辦法來規劃結凍結凍以後要解凍之後所以有可能有可能今年就沒法圖判"},{"start":398.427,"end":422.594,"text":"有凍結的百分之三十以外還有行政院那六百七十六億所以 客委會很多的這些不管是補助也好或者是活動也好已經嚴重影響到客委會歷年在辦理推廣客語以及各種活動或者是補助縣市政府是不是也有會受到影響我一樣想問像剛才說的白宮政府站目前已經都減少減費的減少百分之十七的減費"},{"start":428.379,"end":439.285,"text":"所以國民黨的委員都只敢問那種不用花到錢的事情真正要花到預算的事情都不敢問所以在這邊我必須要提出來謝謝也請客委會加油好感謝李委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時56分）請古主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：主委你好，謝謝。剛剛質詢到現在，所有的委員都對於你們客家委員會的事務，包含伯公照護站都有非常多的意見，甚至要推廣客家相關的，不管是語言、文化或者是觀光也好，都有提出很多的見解。","奇怪！怎麼跟我準備的方向不太一樣，好像大家忘記了，今天我的重點是要跟客委會討論，被刪了那麼多預算、被凍了那麼多預算，這些事情怎麼做，剛剛好像所有人都忘記，新北的委員還提到去年補助120萬，今年能不能增加？他忘記他刪了你們多少預算。主委說明一下，在補助方面的預算被刪了多少？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前我們全部的業務費被刪除1.9億。"],["李委員柏毅：業務費刪除1.9億，這個是光客委會的部分嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["李委員柏毅：還有一個行政院被統刪的636億，請問客委會現在已經有收到主計總處請你們客委會必須要勻支多少了嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前還沒有收到，這636億還要等行政院自行調整的部分，目前還沒有收到指示。"],["李委員柏毅：所以要怎麼樣補助？這一筆補助經費一定會被影響到，怎麼樣增加？你剛剛的回應也沒有說要怎麼樣增加，我也不懂、我也不知道你要怎麼樣可以增加？所以很可惜。今年是古主委可以開始好好執行賴總統對於在客家庄好好生活，以及好好推廣客語的工作年，國家的稅收也足以讓客委會可以多做事，主委原本想要多做的事情是什麼？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，我們今年有幾個新增的計畫，剛剛提到的「客家幣」是占非常大的部分，另外還有今年要建立青年諮詢委員會以及青年的支持系統，目前除了新的計畫以外，還有舊的延續性的計畫，我們都要擴大、加深來辦理，這些都需要經費，刪除以後雖然還有增加，但是還是嚴重不夠。"],["李委員柏毅：簡而言之，舊的計畫可以持續做，例如伯公照護站……"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以做，但是有被刪除預算，所以有減少。"],["李委員柏毅：伯公照護站的預算也被刪除了嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，有減少。"],["李委員柏毅：「文化幣」是新的預算，所以「文化幣」是可能不知道怎麼樣開始進行嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：是「客家幣」。"],["李委員柏毅：對不起，是「客家幣」。"],["古主任委員秀妃：「客家幣」的部分，我們沒辦法全面來發放，必須有一些策略來減少及節制，會採取登記制，就沒辦法全面。"],["李委員柏毅：所以就變成只能逐步的推廣，我覺得非常可惜，臺灣是所有華人地區唯一有成立客委會作為部會的國家，最主要目的是要推廣客庄好好生活之外，對於客語的推廣是我們急需要努力的方向，也要持續努力的工作，吸引青年做「客家幣」等等的政策，我覺得都是非常好的方向。","如果不能做，我必須要把目前有刪除客委會預算的委員的名字唸出來，包含在我們委員會裡的委員，雖然在委員會審查預算的時候，他們沒有刪到這一筆，但是徐欣瑩在二讀會議是舉手刪除客委會預算、林思銘委員在二讀會議是舉手刪除客委會預算、傅崐萁委員在二讀會議是舉手刪除你們的預算、徐巧芯委員號稱客籍委員，在二讀會議也是舉手刪除客委會的預算，所以針對這幾個委員，我必須要把他們點名，所有其他包含新住民委員、原住民委員，對他們新住民的權益、對他們原住民的權益想盡辦法希望增加照顧，只有這4個客家的委員在院會的時候大砍客委會的預算，我覺得這件事情必須要講出來，當然不是主委講，這是我講的。","最後希望客委會在非常辛苦的狀況下……我還沒問妳凍結有多少？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前凍結是30%，推算後差不多3.6億，但是……"],["李委員柏毅：那是非常大的金額。"],["古主任委員秀妃：確實是非常大的金額，刪除1.9億跟凍結3.6億，在過去及歷年來客委會從來沒有的狀況。"],["李委員柏毅：歷年被刪跟被凍最多的一次嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。"],["李委員柏毅：請問在目前行政院還沒有辦法算出來那636億，大家還不知道要如何分配的狀況下，客委會被凍結的30%會影響到哪一些業務的工作？"],["古主任委員秀妃：全面都會影響到，比如我們的客家歌謠觀摩賽，這活動超過1萬人參加，目前還沒辦法開始辦理。"],["李委員柏毅：這個客家歌謠比賽可能要等到解凍後才有辦法規劃。"],["古主任委員秀妃：要解凍之後……"],["李委員柏毅：要解凍之後。"],["古主任委員秀妃：要解凍之後才可以辦理這活動，如果沒有解凍，有可能今年就沒辦法辦理。"],["李委員柏毅：除了有被凍結的30%以外，還有行政院被刪的636億，客委會在很多的不管是補助也好或者是活動也好，已經嚴重影響到客委會歷年在辦理推廣客語以及各種活動或者補助縣市政府，是不是也會有受到影響？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會影響到，像剛才提到的伯公照護站，目前已經減少了17%的經費。"],["李委員柏毅：所以國民黨的委員都只敢問那種不用花到錢的事情嘛！真正要花到預算的事情都不敢問，所以在這邊我必須要提出來，謝謝，也請客委會加油。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝，李委員。"],["主席：請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df5aaafb93dccc9bfa03e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222ae5ef2ea4dde02c8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:50:53 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居地的地方喔那油桐花過去也是客家族群呃貼補家用一個很重要的經濟作物那隨著時代變遷那油桐花現在變成國內旅遊觀光的一個重要的亮點"},{"start":38.905,"end":58.791,"text":"那我想因此不管是中央跟或者是我們地方政府近年都不斷的在推廣這個油桶花季那並結合我們的客家的文化活動讓我們的美景還有我們的客家歷史文化能夠相輔相成那本席注意到客委會為了推廣我們客家文化有設立這個客庄小旅行的網站"},{"start":59.531,"end":75.856,"text":"方便民眾來查詢有相關的一些活動的地點那尤其是跟我們這個各縣市的政府來合作大力推廣這個油桐花季像是推出這個33條油桐花小旅行的路線以及許多桐花義務活動這是件好事"},{"start":76.716,"end":105.635,"text":"那本席對於谷竹野上任之後至於推廣我們各地的客家文化也是給予肯定那但是本席要跟竹野來反映一件事情就是台東的油桐花其實也非常的漂亮那尤其是在我們台東的鹿野地區因為我們台東的客家住院主要是在縱谷就是石上關山跟鹿野那鹿野地區有前陣子還有辦那個花縣鹿野客家桐花的這個活動那指導單位還是我們客委會那本席也在活動的時候遇到我們的科長"},{"start":106.716,"end":124.215,"text":"那但是我在我們柯委會的這個柯莊小旅行的這個官網上面介紹這個油桐花小旅行的這個欄目裡面並沒有看到相關的資訊那其實這是一件非常可惜的事情因為當天的活動其實非常多的人可是其實他這個活動並沒有在網站出現"},{"start":125.441,"end":151.194,"text":"那雖然台東比較偏遠那其實因為偏遠所以才是更需要大家來注意那一起來推廣我們在地的這個客家文化的美景促進更多的觀光的人潮台東縱谷的客家文化其實相對它特別它是一個各族群融合的地方它除了有客家族群外還有漢人還有原住民阿美族的朋友甚至一些是我們新住民現在形成一個很特殊的客家文化"},{"start":151.934,"end":177.522,"text":"那主要應該了解其實台東其實就是一個移民的移民城市那根據我們客人會過去的統計台東的客家人口大概是在4萬多人也佔了將近全縣將近20%那相較於桃園、新竹、苗栗這些幾個客家大縣來說雖然我們人口數比較少可是其實台東美麗的這個油桶花的景點跟客家文化其實也沒有比較差"},{"start":178.402,"end":194.957,"text":"那像是我們過去我們鹿野龍田就有一個那個油桐花大道那花季的時候非常漂亮吸引很多的遊客來這邊喝我們紅烏龍然後賞花那非常適合全家大小來這邊旅遊不過在一樣在我們客家"},{"start":196.345,"end":216.218,"text":"客庄小旅行的這網站中同樣也沒有看到這樣的相關的資訊那我記得本席在剛到立法院的時候其實在三個主委的時候其實有建議過這件事情要趕快改進那當時主委也說會來改善他目前為止還是沒有這部分我想還是要請主委來多多的來督促一下那"},{"start":217.479,"end":243.698,"text":"另外在這個網站上我們可以看到各縣市的有關遊動化或是客家文化體驗的這個套裝行程啊他的費用啊還有聯繫窗口但幾乎也都沒有看到什麼台東的商家只有只有在那個限定優惠店家中找到兩個登記在案的這個台東伴手禮的商店喔我想這樣對於台東有關客家文化的元素喔非常的可惜就是我想相信他元素很多不只有這一家而已"},{"start":244.338,"end":263.092,"text":"所以本席希望是為了要督促我們整個台東縣促進我們台東縣的這個觀光那也將我們台東的客家文化發揚廣大需要我們中央跟地方一起來努力在這邊本席也要幫台東縣來宣傳我們目前台東縣跟鹿野相公所有推出這個花縣鹿野的這個活動"},{"start":264.373,"end":284.687,"text":"現在熱烈的在進行那我們也歡迎全國各地的鄉親都可以來這邊來旅遊所以我想要請客委會的主委回去再盤點一下有關台東的相關的這個賞桶的步道油棟花的這個小旅行的資訊以及店家的資訊能夠更新在我們客委會的這個官網裡面那主委是不是回去之後可以立刻來著手"},{"start":285.407,"end":313.303,"text":"好 感謝王議員 我想要一天下去處理啦所以請你們政府也送下去判理好 謝謝主委主委我想台東是一個多元的移民城市那客家文化其實在台東其實也是很重要的一件事情我們一起來努力讓屬於這塊土地上的一個文化然後一個族群的聲音讓更多人看到那謝謝主委好 感謝王議員好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（9時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩請客委會古主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早安。主委，接下來4月到5月是客家庄很重要的觀光季節，因為4月、5月是我們的桐花祭，對不對？那油桐花生長密集的地方有很多都是我們客家族群聚集、居住之處，油桐花過去也是客家族群貼補家用一個很重要的經濟作物，隨著時代變遷，油桐花現在變成國內旅遊、觀光一個很重要的亮點，因此不管是中央或者是地方政府今年都不斷的在推廣桐花祭，並結合我們客家的文化活動，讓我們的美景還有客家歷史文化能夠相輔相成。本席也有注意到，客委會為了推廣我們客家文化，有設立了客庄小旅行的網站，方便民眾來查詢相關的活動地點，尤其是跟各縣市政府合作來大力推廣桐花祭，像推出33條油桐花小旅行的路線以及許多桐花藝文活動，這是一件好事。","本席對於古主委上任之後致力於推廣各地的客家文化予以肯定，但是本席要跟主委反映一件事情，就是臺東的油桐花其實也非常的漂亮，尤其是在我們臺東的鹿野地區，因為我們臺東的客家族群主要是在縱谷，就是池上、關山跟鹿野，前一陣子在鹿野地區還有舉辦花現鹿野鹿客的桐花活動，指導單位是客委會，本席也在參加活動的時候遇到科長。但是我在客委會客庄小旅行官網上面介紹油桐花小旅行的這個欄目裡面並沒有看到相關的資訊，其實這是一件非常可惜的事情，因為當天的活動其實有非常多人參加，可是這個活動的訊息並沒有在網站出現，雖然臺東比較偏遠，其實是因為偏遠，所以才更需要大家來注意，一起來推廣我們在地的客家文化和美景，吸引更多的觀光人潮。","臺東縱谷的客家文化其實相對很特別，因為這是一個各族群融合的地方，除了有客家族群以外，還有漢人，還有原住民、阿美族的朋友，甚至有一些新住民，所以形成一個很特殊的客家文化。主委應該也了解，其實臺東就是一個移民城市，根據客委會過去的統計，臺東的客家人口大概是四萬多人，也占了全縣將近20%，那相較於桃園、新竹、苗栗這幾個客家大縣，雖然我們的人口數比較少，可是臺東美麗的油桐花景點跟客家文化其實也沒有比較差。像過去我們鹿野龍田就有一條油桐花大道，在花季的時候非常漂亮，吸引很多的遊客來這邊喝我們紅烏龍然後賞花，非常適合全家大小來這邊旅遊，不過在這個客庄小旅行的網站中同樣也沒有看到這些相關的資訊。我記得本席在剛到立法院的時候，其實我有對上一任主委建議過這件事情要趕快改進，當時前主委也說會來改善，可是到目前為止還是沒有，我想這個部分還是要請主委來多多的督促一下。","另外，在這個網站上我們可以看到各縣市有關油桐花或是客家文化體驗的套裝行程，包括費用還有聯繫窗口，但是幾乎也都沒有看到什麼臺東的商家，只有在限定優惠店家中找到2個登記在案的臺東伴手禮商店，我想這樣對於臺東有關客家文化的元素來講非常可惜，我相信它的元素很多，不只有這一家而已。本席希望為了要督促我們整個臺東縣，促進臺東縣的觀光，可以將我們臺灣及臺東的客家文化發揚光大，需要我們中央跟地方一起來努力。","本席也要幫臺東縣作宣傳，目前臺東縣跟鹿野鄉公所有推出「花現鹿野」的活動，現在也熱烈的在進行，我們也歡迎全國各地方鄉親都可以來這邊旅遊。","請客委會主委回去再盤點一下，有關臺東相關的賞桐步道、油桐花小旅行以及店家等資訊，能夠更新在你們客委會的官網裡，主委回去後，是不是可以立刻著手？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝黃委員。我會馬上處理也會請我們業務單位趕緊辦理。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委。臺東是一個多元的移民城市，客家文化在臺東也是很重要的一件事情，我們一起來努力，讓屬於這塊土地上的一個文化、一個族群的聲音能夠更多人看到，謝謝主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝黃委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df3b0885459cb000ca03e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222a94885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:41:33 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主委你回答一下跟王委員報告 從王委員這樣下去看其實隔膩施藥的手材很符合省錢 把工作負債的條件因為經驗我們有跟他擴大除了鄉鎮期超過三分之一以上只有他的社中條三期存離"},{"start":161.201,"end":165.147,"text":"那差不多一般以送人的行李或用行李的人他就可以來選擇所以就像王美媛這樣提議的講義士提供的素材他做得比較乾淨他做得比較好"},{"start":178.196,"end":184.402,"text":"因為我當委來聽他們說的時候,就是說要申請的時候,他們的認可書會不足,但是主委你這樣說的時候,他們可以去申請這個不公站,但是在中等到今年的時候,我們有計39張出來,但是我們的經費,也有刪除的時候,如果這樣,"},{"start":203.945,"end":216.796,"text":"是可以再接受新的申請或是未來申請來 主委 您要回答一下兩個部分 第一個部分是委員講到的我們在經費刪貼 刪貼遺孫有影響到白宮這屋站 莫不錯 有影響我們民意的暫定 因為白宮這屋站"},{"start":232.149,"end":243.24,"text":"三點數變多,所以雖然說有增加一些,但是平均來說全部還是公台,公台輔助的金額,所以故事有公台的輔助"},{"start":250.644,"end":252.266,"text":"主委你現在說的,可以申請跟補助固定的,你買了再說,因為醫生的問題,所以固定的過程,因為醫生有三億,所以會減的"},{"start":268.087,"end":270.71,"text":"是不是這樣 錯錯錯因為我覺得這就是醫生要照顧家的薄工站公司一定要有醫生嘛那要有醫生才能夠讓家的薄工站的照顧更好我也希望未來的假期期拿出來的時候我們的懲辦單位"},{"start":293.618,"end":306.285,"text":"如果可以再合作一下再來一個主委我代您請教說因為我們有夾武輝跟媒體的選擇被刪減三千年的時候"},{"start":307.406,"end":318.596,"text":"我們的客家族群主流化的發展會議會和競爭創新的環境的營造會議會、客家議員、深植會議會、客家藝文發展會議會內的會議會"},{"start":327.024,"end":334.091,"text":"在裡面 我覺得第一就是用議員發展經費下去辦的因為長久以來 我也要求你們要自己做一些議員的課程讓這些孩子可以合法"},{"start":348.987,"end":361.355,"text":"我們的議員,像我講的那樣,你說的各位議員,就是說大家互相尊重,互相合適,我們也希望這個議員不能消失,但是我們是很高興的,像我們那幾位來賓,是不是今年可以再做嗎?來!"},{"start":374.584,"end":379.706,"text":"感謝王委員,我們有醫生,我們希望到國體法判例,但是它凍結醫生3%,是否解凍以前,確實會影響到醫院法庭的創持,所以我們還是希望在解凍以後,我們要有法庭去規劃醫院表現的創持"},{"start":402.735,"end":419.766,"text":"主委你說的這幾天在假期期都有藝文表演的時候會結尾如果沒有結尾的時候今年就可能沒有去假期期表演了有可能這就很嚴重對假期期來說的應用很大所以我們要關心去看要怎麼處理因為他們都說主要你們提議以來"},{"start":432.915,"end":438.318,"text":"來解凍 跟你們說沒關係 看是他們說真的要解凍還是那些人用蒸的啦應該主委 各位人喔 那些用蒸的可能聽不懂啦主委在這裡本身要跟你探討的就是說 我們都有去"},{"start":456.172,"end":462.178,"text":"假如說我們的課位的零考數有多少在這個過程當中,我們有三檔內省,有四檔內省,有五檔內省在這幾檔內,本學所看到的就是91年"},{"start":474.17,"end":479.074,"text":"九九十三年 再來九十千年 再來一百年 再來一百零三年 一百零五年 再來一百十年現在要再九十八十五年 還要算我們的統計在這裡本身要提議說 我們不要憤怒五年到算一遍 那太晚太久了我們是不是可以改變說 三年還是四年 因為五年有那麼久"},{"start":502.811,"end":505.953,"text":"主委我這個意見是不是去了解看看因為統計你讓五黨最貴顧的會考數以上因為我接受的時間夠了感謝主委對其他議題"},{"start":520.383,"end":525.468,"text":"通話機的補助,說實在我本來站在這要求說,可以補助多少嗎?然後醫生給我三年,希望醫生沒三年時,對家理事的活動,要讓他們多多協助和了解他們如何的辦活動,以及醫生多多給他們協助,以上好,感謝毛議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時41分）主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。主委，說實在的，百姓都「聽無」、都聽得「霧煞煞」，你們這個單位有被刪減也有被凍結，怎麼還會多出錢來呢？所以在這個過程當中，我覺得大家都是在說不實在的話，數字都很明顯，就已經刪了預算，又怎麼會多出來呢？所以就不應刪、不應凍啊！我覺得這個社會都亂了！","主委，剛才有說到伯公照護站，這大部分都是客家人聚集的地方，有時地方有長照服務的也都可以互相配合，但像我嘉義市，因為人數不夠，可能永遠都沒辦法申請，尤其是嘉義市鹿寮，主委，他們大部分都會聚集在那裡，尤其是一些廟裡的活動，像這幾年我們的桐花祭就移到了幸福山丘，那還是私人提供給我們使用的場地，桐花祭的部分我等一下再說，現在我要說的是伯公照護站，主委，我們是不是要有一個改變？就是雨露均霑，因為如果照你們這樣說，嘉義市永遠都申請不到伯公照護站，而這個問題要怎麼去解決，以照顧這些客家人呢？因為他們多為上了年紀的人，所以要怎麼去照顧他們呢？請主委回答一下。"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟王委員報告，照王委員說的來看，其實嘉義市這個地方符合申請伯公照護站的條件，因為今年我們有擴大申辦的條件，除了鄉鎮區超過三分之一以上，只要它的小庄頭、社區成員有達到一半以上人口是客家人口，然後會講客語的，就可以來申請了。","再來，照王委員所說的，嘉義市是有這麼一個特別的地方，它就是一個客家社區，所以它是可以來申請的。"],["王委員美惠：因為我常常聽他們說，就是在申請的時候，會因為他們的人口數不足就沒有辦法，但照主委剛剛說的，他們是可以去申請伯公照護站的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：對。"],["王委員美惠：不過在去年和今年，我們有多了39站，但我們的經費也有被刪減，如果是這樣，是不是可以再接受新的申請，還是明年再來申請？請主委回答一下。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這有兩個部分，第一個部分就是委員所說的，我們的經費被刪掉了，對伯公站的預算有影響沒錯，但是伯公站因為站點的數量變多了，我們的預算是固定的，所以雖然有增加一些，但是平均來說，全部還是有降低的，補助的金額降低了，所以補助有降低，這是第一個。"],["王委員美惠：主委，你現在說可以申請的補助是固定的，你後來又說因為預算的問題，預算是固定的，因為預算被刪了，所以補助會減少，是不是這樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得這個預算就是要照顧這裡的伯公站，說實在的，一定要有預算嘛！要有預算才能把這裡的伯公站照顧得更好。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["王委員美惠：我希望在未來嘉義市提出來的時候，承辦單位可以協助一下。","再來，主委，我要請教你，因為業務費和媒體的宣傳費被刪減了，我們有客家族群主流化發展計畫、客庄創生及環境營造計畫、客家語言深植計畫跟客家藝文發展計畫的經費，舉例來說，《雨馬》就是用藝文發展經費去辦的，長久以來，我也要求你們要在嘉義市再推動一些客語的藝文活動，來讓孩子們可以再多學一點我們的語言，像我講臺語、你說客語，就是大家互相尊重、互相學習，我們也希望這個語言不要消失，不過本席比較擔心藝文活動的規劃在今年是不是可以再做，請主委說明。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝王委員，如果我們有預算，就會繼續在各地來辦理藝文活動，但是凍結30%的預算，在還沒有解凍之前，確實會影響到藝文活動的場次，所以我還是希望可以趕緊解凍，然後我們再來規劃藝文表演的場次。"],["王委員美惠：如果像主委說的，這幾年在嘉義市都有藝文表演的計畫，那如果還沒有解凍，今年就有可能不會去嘉義市表演了？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，沒錯，這是有可能的。"],["王委員美惠：這樣就很嚴重，對嘉義市來說，影響很大啊！所以我們要趕快去看要怎麼處理，因為他們都說只要你們把解凍案送過來，他們就會來解凍，你們就趕快看他們是說真的會解凍，或者只是假裝一下，主委，你是老實人，我說用假裝的，你可能聽不懂。","主委，本席在這裡要跟你探討的就是，我們都有統計客語的人口數有多少，在這個過程當中，我們有3年算一次、有4年算一次、有5年算一次，在這幾年來，本席所看到的就是從91年到93年，再來是97年，再來是100年，再來是103年、105年，再來是110年，現在還要到115年才會統計，本席建議我們不要等那麼久，5年才算一次，這樣太久了，我們是不是可以變成3年還是4年？因為5年有比較久啦！主委，對於我的這個意見，你是不是去了解看看？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好的。"],["王委員美惠：因為統計人口數要隔5年的時間，真的是太久了！我的質詢時間到了，也感謝主委對嘉義市桐花祭的補助，說實在的，我本來在這裡想要求再補助更多，可是預算被刪了，希望你們在預算沒有被刪的時候對嘉義市的活動多多協助並了解他們是怎麼樣在辦活動，用預算多多給他們協助，以上。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝王委員。"],["主席：好，我們請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfe1dceafb2a29516903e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222a9930f9bb5cf0ddfa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:31:07 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的一些的據點可是現在新北市的部分還是沒有辦法來協助那我再簡單講一下"},{"start":103.044,"end":126.785,"text":"那以這個重點發展區來講的話是這個三分之一以上的客家人口就可以來設立那非重點發展區現在我們是把它從鄉鎮市區把它再下放成一些村裡可以來使用可是現在的問題點是說我們還是要有超過50%甚至是比過去重點發展區更多比例的人口數才能設這個"},{"start":128.826,"end":136.632,"text":"這個不公照護站那這樣子造成新北市有點困難來設立是不是可以請教主委是不是可以鬆綁既有的50%的語言使用門檻"},{"start":139.553,"end":141.955,"text":"感謝委員的關心 要補充我們肥豪、同事、友誼、尊敬、學習、共和國的幾個年頭可能在眾委員所提及多數委員所提及的要封款 也要判斷他在多次提起不適中 當然不適中 但是他符合的條件"},{"start":165.868,"end":179.237,"text":"好 謝謝主委因為上個會期其實我在這邊就已經有跟主委請教了那是不是這一次因為上個會期有請教這次還沒有拿到答案是不是大概有要多少時間可以提供一個資料書面資料給我們應該說三張頁"},{"start":184.437,"end":206.759,"text":"一個月之內嗎?三個月之內那是拜託盡快可以處理那第二個也要請教主委這個客家基本法的第三條已經明定了政府應該保護及推廣客語那依照這個文化部的語言調查報告其實現在客語的使用率有流失超過七成"},{"start":207.319,"end":226.636,"text":"那以及有四個縣市的一些比如說什麼邵安腔啊海陸腔已經屬於這個冰嶺就大家越來越講越少那這次的業務報告我們很期待可是卻沒有看見客家語言發展法草案的進度它是依照客家基本法第三條應該要來明定的一個部分"},{"start":227.136,"end":253.937,"text":"所以我們就我了解其實國民黨團有三個委員也提出相關的法案的草案那現在還沒有看到政院的版本那所以我們認為這個法制的進程有點遲緩那是不是會造成客語快速流失的這些隱憂是不是可以請教主委那現在我們的這個客語客家語言發展法最重要推廣客語的這個草案何時可以送來立法院"},{"start":254.457,"end":263.705,"text":"我們要重新系統行業發展法的討論因為內部有幾條 幾條 某種意見很清楚所以我們要有一個婚姻 婚後的婚姻 邀請大家提供意見我認為國家要進一步 關於要進一步 送入法院"},{"start":280.859,"end":305.782,"text":"這個會期有機會送進來立法院嗎?可能有困難主委要再加油了還有上個會期我有請教主委其實客語的發展有一個非常重要就是國家客家發展計畫他會訂定我們未來整個客語他整個的一些的計畫跟進度那上次有請教過主委在112年底"},{"start":308.902,"end":333.535,"text":"公佈完這個計劃以後113年度是空白當時我還認為說奇怪賴總統怎麼會130年度都空白那之前問主委現在未來預計有一個新的一期的國家課與發展計劃是114年到117年有這樣的計劃嗎有有有目前已經合理費已經整個當天好了目前尊本行政院和政院的費送國普費國普費已經在他的書籍當中"},{"start":335.598,"end":347.263,"text":"所以我請教主委那113年當時沒有提出計畫這個未來會是同案嗎還是說當時的原因發展是什麼為什麼過去的計畫是110年到112年113年是空白然後新的計畫是114年到117年那113年這樣子的沒有這樣的計畫未來是同案嗎"},{"start":356.438,"end":362.105,"text":"希望客家語言發展不能說中間斷掉一年我也是支持主委的想法應該要延續最後有請教一個重點就是說現在"},{"start":375.521,"end":394.645,"text":"這個客會要來發行這個客家幣預計好像在114年的7月要來刺激族群認同以及語言文化的參與我認為這是一個非常重要的事情可是我相信這個還在研議當中那我可不可以請教主委今年的客家幣預計發行的量為何那客家幣114年7月要發行客家幣的發放"},{"start":400.546,"end":419.045,"text":"那我們的預期的目標是什麼可以增加多少客家客於使用的比例那以及這個客家幣現在的發放就我所了解現在使用在實體的狀況就是說我實體在消費的時候可以去使用那因為本席知道說現在我們客委會很認真他有推動很多的線上課程"},{"start":420.006,"end":431.391,"text":"那我想說這些客家幣是不是也可以來購買這些線上課程這些虛擬的一些的一些的使用方式是不是可以請這個這個主委解釋一下感謝總委員我們學家幣一開始最要爭取的原因是高興以來學費提升點我講學的我直接在說學的升點"},{"start":447.157,"end":450.119,"text":"有學及認證認證的人一定多,類似學歷一定多第三,有顧慮行為、家庭要在三方面,保養高效很困難,我們要說英國的外國行為有流通適用的機會"},{"start":466.467,"end":473.091,"text":"本身的行業家庭、行業認證人員,做到在外國學院、外國學院做事的時間,做到用合法的對方最主要我們想要的事情,不是要運用的技巧,是要用合法的技巧,所以我非常要學習"},{"start":487.36,"end":488.12,"text":"所以主委謝謝 所以就是說"},{"start":515.826,"end":539.214,"text":"這個客家幣的重點是要讓大家促進客語的發展大家用客語溝通嘛所以我在使用客家幣的時候就是盡量要鼓勵大家要講客語鼓勵大家鼓勵大家還有那個送點要一天的外公學要送點的年齡沒有那預計發行的數量為何目前四十萬年四十萬 四十萬"},{"start":544.358,"end":554.748,"text":"40萬人那一個人大概可以取得1000塊但是因為我去登記我去量他們可能沒辦法按到才登記制"},{"start":561.491,"end":579.263,"text":"那最後我還是要拜託主委 我要請教一個問題其實我也是幫新北市政府發聲那新北市政府 最後一個問題新北市政府每年都會辦這個疫名季的部分那我想要請教 請主委聽一下我的問題這個112年度 這個新北市辦疫名季的整個經費是120萬"},{"start":582.064,"end":605.875,"text":"當時課委會補助300萬那113年的時候總經費也是120萬可是課委會只補助100萬為什麼會少了三倍那我希望說114年的時候因為我知道課委會的這個經費今年跟去年比起來還多了3億元那我是不是需要說課委不要再減少了好 各位請主委回答他應該我們要去審查他的記者我們要看幾百去回答"},{"start":608.436,"end":611.723,"text":"好 再拜託幫新北市的客家人來跟主委拜託好 謝謝感謝總委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時31分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。","有請古主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝古主委，謝謝。今天是客委會的質詢，有很多委員針對伯公照護站提出諸多的問題，伯公照護站就我的理解是一個非常好的政策，主要是剛剛主委特別有提到的C級照護點，讓一些長輩有機會到這些社區的聚會中心，大家一起互動及照顧他們的身體，我們希望客語的部分一定要能傳承，讓大家會講客語，很多的照護站也可以帶他們的孫子及孫女，一起來讓我們的客語可以發展。","現在伯公照護站主要設於客家文化重點發展區，本席在的新北市是屬於非重點發展區，剛剛提到新北市過去以來，在新北市有67萬的客家人口裡，依照現在的新規定，僅有一個三峽區的五寮里，可以符合設置客家社區，雖然現在我們有讓重點發展區以及非重點發展區可以多設一些伯公照護站的據點，可是現在新北市還是沒有辦法協助。我再簡單講一下，以重點發展區來講，是三分之一以上的客家人口就可以設立，現在非重點發展區是把它從鄉鎮市區再下放至村里來適用，可是現在的問題點是我們還是要有超過50%，甚至要比過去重點發展區更多比例的人口數才能設置伯公照護站，因而造成新北市設立上會有點困難，請教主委是不是可以鬆綁既有50%的語言使用門檻？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員這麼關心這個部分，我會後會跟我們同事再邀請專家學者一起來規劃及研討，就張委員及蘇委員所提的放寬問題，思考有什麼辦法可以解決都市地區客家人不集中的現象，但是又可以符合的條件。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。我上個會期在這邊就已經有跟主委請教了，上次有索取資料，這次還沒有拿到答案，大概需要多少時間可以提供書面資料給我們？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想3個月可以嗎？"],["張委員智倫：1個月之內嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：3個月。"],["張委員智倫：好，3個月之內，拜託可以盡快處理。","第二個要請教主委，客家基本法的第三條已經明定政府應該保護及推廣客語，依照文化部語言調查報告，現在客語的使用率已流失超過七成，以及有4個縣市的一些語言，比如詔安腔、海陸腔已經屬於瀕危，大家越來越講越少，我們很期待這次的業務報告，可是卻沒有看見客家語言發展法草案的進度，它是依照客家基本法第三條應該要明訂的部分，就我的了解，其實國民黨團有3個委員也提出相關法案的草案，但現在還沒有看到政院的版本，所以我們認為你們的法制進程有點遲緩，是不是會有造成客語快速流失等等的隱憂呢？請教主委，現在我們的客家語言發展法，也就是最重要推廣客語的草案，何時可以送來立法院？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們現在要重新啟動客語發展法的討論，因為當中有好幾條不同的意見很多，所以我們會有一個公開會議邀請大家來提供意見。總之，我們會加快進度將其送到立法院來審議。"],["張委員智倫：這個會期有機會送進來立法院嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這個會期可能有困難。"],["張委員智倫：沒關係，主委要再加油了，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好。"],["張委員智倫：上個會期我曾請教過主委，其實客語的發展有一個非常重要的，就是國家客家發展計畫，裡面會訂定我們未來在整個客語的一些計畫跟進度。但在112年底公布完這個計畫以後，113年度卻是空白的，當時我還覺得很奇怪，所以也問過主委，賴總統怎麼會讓113年度都空白呢？據說未來預計會提出新的一期國家客語發展計畫，是從114年到117年，有這樣的計畫嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有！目前客委會已經訂定好了，也送到行政院了，行政院正在會商並蒐集各部會意見當中。"],["張委員智倫：所以我請教主委，113年當時並沒有提出計畫，這個未來會是通案嗎？還是當時是什麼原因造成的？為什麼過去的計畫是從110年到112年；113年是空白；然後新的計畫是114年到117年，那113年沒有這樣的計畫，未來是通案嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想應該不會，未來會無縫接軌、會持續下去。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委，我希望客家語言發展不能中間斷掉一年，同時我也支持主委的想法，應該要延續。","最後請教一個重點，現在客委會要發行客家幣，時間預計好像是114年7月，這要來刺激族群認同以及語言文化的參與，我認為這是一個非常重要的事情，可是我相信這個還在研議當中，請教主委，今年客家幣預計發行的數量為何？因為114年7月要發行，對於客家幣的發放，我們的預期的目標是什麼？可以增加多少客語使用的比例？關於客家幣的發放，就我的了解，現在是實體使用的狀況，就是實體消費的時候可以去使用，本席知道我們客委會很認真，有推動很多的線上課程，所以這些客家幣是不是也可以購買這些線上課程？就是用於購買這些虛擬的課程，是不是可以請主委解釋一下？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝張委員，關於我們的客家幣，一開始之所以會想要有這個政策，是因為過去以來，那些會講客語的商店會貼有「𠊎講客」的標章；另外，有經過客家認證的人，目前累積下來已有滿多人；第三個就是鼓勵客語家庭，這三方面在經表揚過後就斷掉了，所以我們才在想，應該要讓客語有流通使用的機會，讓這些客語家庭、客家認證的人在到有「𠊎講客」標章的商店去做消費的時候，可以用客語來對話，這是我們這個發想最主要的目的，讓他們可以有講客語、使用客語的機會，所以我們發行客家幣的原因就在這裡。","再來，客家幣是一個幣別，可以促進經濟產業的循環及流通，所以我們目前在70個重點發展區來使用，但是對象要很明確，就是「𠊎講客」的商店，因為要有客語的流通，所以目前數量有多少……"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委，所以這個客家幣的重點是讓大家可以促進客語的發展，大家用客語來溝通。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["張委員智倫：所以在使用客家幣的時候，就是要鼓勵大家儘量要講客語。"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，鼓勵大家講客語，就是在「𠊎講客」的商店。"],["張委員智倫：預計發行的數量為何？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前40萬人。"],["張委員智倫：一個人大概可以取得多少？"],["古主任委員秀妃：1,000元，但是會來登記領取的人可能沒有這麼多人，我們是採登記制。"],["張委員智倫：一個人登記一次？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["張委員智倫：最後請教一個問題，我還是要拜託主委，其實我也是幫新北市政府發聲，新北市政府每年都會辦義民祭，在此想請主委聽一下我的問題，112年度新北市辦義民祭的整個經費是120萬，當時客委會補助300萬；113年的時候，總經費也是120萬，可是客委會只補助100萬，為什麼會少了3倍？我希望114年的時候，因為我知道客委會的經費今年跟去年比起來還多了3億元，所以我希望這部分經費可不可以不要再減少了？可不可以請主委回答一下？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這部分我們會來審查，這有一個審查機制，我們會看計畫來決定數額。"],["張委員智倫：好，再拜託了，我是幫新北市的客家人來跟主委拜託，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝張委員。"],["主席：請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df0f22404e5ce47b9103e1353dd96d4caaebda33721556222a8cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:21:57 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白宮照護站的學費體體放鬆有關從小學到大學的經驗有本能力和種植 做到有更快樂的環境"},{"start":49.198,"end":71.214,"text":"目前今年556宗被投擲 今年517宗被投擲 每一年都省種沒錯 那我看你看這個你剛剛說到的博工照護站目標很清楚嘛就有健康促進 親迎共榮 老幼同樂那甚至他的健康 他的對象健康雅健康的客庄銀髮族"},{"start":72.675,"end":82.065,"text":"都現在會以博工照護站做據點這我們覺得非常的樂見那我也想請問主委您剛剛說這個政策既然廣受歡迎那誰可以來申請什麼樣的資格可以來申請成為或者設立博工照護站聽到提防"},{"start":91.855,"end":118.698,"text":"只要他那個西籍據點他就可以去申請 阿提歐哥菸絲政府主體是地方政府嘛 申請的主體是地方政府但條件的話看過去我們看到這個條件的部分其實不是不是條件的部分你看你114年度推廣博工照護站的實施計畫我也很高興看到你過去是只有在客家文化重點發展區"},{"start":119.959,"end":142.255,"text":"所属的地方政府可以来申请嘛这就是所谓的客庄有客庄的地方政府那你这一次呢是首次名列把这个客家社区也条列到了这个申请的文字当中那客家社区显然就是跟客庄客家文化重点发展区是不太一样的了嘛对不对所以是放宽这是一个放宽"},{"start":145.037,"end":156.362,"text":"好所以我們現在有客庄的地方政府有客舍的地方政府都可以來申請那也就是你剛剛說的可能就是因為這個條件放寬了所以您剛剛也說了這幾年的據點不斷的增加因為客庄的話是以鄉鎮區和人口的狀況來說所以我們這麼幾年來其實客庄不太有變動就是那幾個鄉鎮可是客舍也一直在增加"},{"start":171.528,"end":186.013,"text":"所以連帶著我們的博工照護站因為可以申請的人多了嘛所以通過的也就多了我這個邏輯到這裡都沒有問題吧沒有問題 完全充好 沒有問題來 那接下來就是我要請問的主委 妳知道我們新北"},{"start":186.773,"end":204.76,"text":"新北現在有幾個客庄 有幾個客舍 有幾個博工造戶站嗎目前 客庄 有嗎 我們新北有客庄嗎有有有客庄 我們新北有客庄英國那邊說 不是整個區是客庄 它是一個社中條"},{"start":206,"end":212.965,"text":"所以你的鄉鎮的話是用什麼樣的小莊頭你的莊頭是用什麼樣的行政區村裡的部分的話來來來我們來看一下你的村裡的部分是客舍啊"},{"start":224.69,"end":239.402,"text":"你的客庄 客家文化重點發展區的話是客家人口三分之一以上嘛 鄉鎮市區所以你的意思是說包括市 包括區也都可以包括市 包括區 它那個三分之一以上三分之一嘛它就是那個客家重點發展區我們的經驗 從維也納過去前陣子我們的經驗 翻譯國台 國台的那一套不那一套的那個三分之一的客家"},{"start":252.412,"end":253.113,"text":"我替你做了一個整理我們的客庄和客舍"},{"start":270.333,"end":297.999,"text":"它的申請條件它的認定條件其實有兩個嘛一個是區域範圍就是您剛剛在說的地理狀態嘛客庄的話是鄉鎮市區客舍的話是用村裡但是會沒有問題嘛對不對然後下面是客家人口比例這個比例的話一個是三分之一的話這麼高額的話那它是客庄那你剛剛說客家人口三成以上或講客語的長者二分之一以上這個是你們認定客舍的條件不是這樣嗎"},{"start":299.019,"end":301.96,"text":"這個部分沒有問題嘛所以在這兩個條件之下我剛剛的問題是問你說新北市有客庄或客社嗎據我們的了解其實因為新北市的客家社團客家人口"},{"start":315.846,"end":335.604,"text":"雖然有67萬人但是他非常的散居他非常的散居所以這種散居的生活型態回歸到後面剛剛的認定方式我們一共就是新北市的三峽區的五寮里可以被符合認定客舍他不要說客庄了他連客舍"},{"start":336.673,"end":347.998,"text":"客舍都是非常對我們來講散居的太嚴重所以很難認定嘛所以我剛剛第一個問你說新北有客庄嗎你跟我講有我是非常疑惑我心中有問號那我們連客舍都這麼難了就這麼一個而已啊所以這是我們新北的狀況好那所以我再問你"},{"start":355.982,"end":372.261,"text":"主委我們新北有博工照護站嗎這樣下去看他做的會省錢但是沒有省錢是啊因為我們可以申請的就一共只有一個村裡而已啊所以這個村裡沒有去申請的話當然新北的博工照護站零啊"},{"start":374.163,"end":392.532,"text":"0啊這麼好的政策最多客家人口我們僅次於桃園啦我們67萬是僅次於桃園是全國第二多客家人的地方耶是最多人口的直轄市客家社人口第二多的直轄市結果我們一站博工照護站都沒有你不覺得這個狀況很奇怪嗎"},{"start":394.833,"end":396.435,"text":"所以我們會認為這個問題到底是宣傳不夠力讓你剛剛比如說你剛剛自己也在這邊照就是說我的申請條件我們是要客庄要客社才能來申請但是我們的現在條件有放寬"},{"start":411.531,"end":422.375,"text":"你講了很多 可是看起來我幫你整理成表格之後沒有啊 我們新北能夠符合的很少啊 少之又少啊所以我們連申請條件都過不了關了更不要說成立了嘛 對不對主委 所以如果是這樣 我認為我也要求您是不是應該再想辦法來調整去申請博工照護站的條件"},{"start":439.641,"end":444.564,"text":"讓散居人口市的地區也有機會加入這麼好的政策主委你的意見我們回到剛剛第一頁照顧他的目的的那個部分"},{"start":455.33,"end":475.48,"text":"你可以看到嘛既然它的目的是這麼好的狀況的話其實我認為正因為我們是散居的生活型態所以如果能夠多幾個博工照護站的話它就可以成為地方的新文化傳承中心啊新文化中心對我們客家來講其實才是真正重要的事情你可以規模縮小嘛然後預算"},{"start":478.161,"end":494.707,"text":"預算看是大家均分還是怎麼樣狀況不過我覺得你現在很可惜因為你的預算現在被刪動這麼多光是博工造戶站就被刪了700萬了我看現在今年的新增的造戶站新增的造戶站大概也都必須預算要減少了吧主委今年的博工造戶站預算有減少嗎有減少 每個站點平均減少17%"},{"start":500.789,"end":523.36,"text":"是啊 我們就已經在少經費了這樣煽動下去連博工照護站經費都沒有更不要輪到我們來申請了所以主委我明確的在這裡要求您對散居型態的如新北市應該怎麼增設博工照護站提出規劃我希望在會期結束前能夠有您的想法 客委會的想法可以嗎這個會期結束前"},{"start":526.382,"end":531.196,"text":"好 謝謝妳喔這樣我們再下次煽動預算呢解凍的時候也許我們就可以增加這個申請的機會謝謝感謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時21分）好，謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員好，早安。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委早安。請用客語發言即可，我有佩戴通譯的耳機。","主委，我今天想跟您討論一個議題，我們覺得地方上真的是很不錯、廣受歡迎的政策，就是我們的伯公照護站，主委現在伯公照護站的發展情況如何？現在的數量有多少，這幾年有增加嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員，伯公照護站是客委會在地方上有關長照非常重要的業務，老人家、長者可以有一個很快樂的地方……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前今年556站，比去年五百一十多站還多，每年都有成長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你剛剛說到的伯公照護站目標很清楚，有健康促進、青銀共融、老幼同樂，甚至目標對象包含健康、亞健康的客庄銀髮族都會以伯公照護站做據點，這我們非常樂見。我想請問主委，您剛剛說這個政策既然廣受歡迎，誰可以來申請？什麼樣的資格可以來申請成為或設立伯公照護站？"],["古主任委員秀妃：在我們地方，只要是C級的據點，他就可以透過縣市政府來申請。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主體是地方政府嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：申請的主體是地方政府，但條件的話，我們看到114年度推廣伯公照護站的實施計畫，我很高興看到過去只有在客家文化重點發展區所屬的地方政府可以來申請，就是所謂的客庄（有客庄的地方政府），那你這一次是首次明列把客家社區也條列到申請的文字當中。","客家社區顯然跟客家文化重點發展區（客庄）是不太一樣的，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是一個放寬，好，我們現在有客庄的地方政府、有客社的地方政府都可以來申請，也就是你剛剛說的，可能就是因為條件放寬了，所以這幾年的據點不斷的增加，客庄是以鄉鎮區和人口的狀況來說，我們幾年來其實客庄不太有變動，就是那幾個鄉鎮，可是客社也一直在增加，所以連帶我們的伯公照護站，因為可以申請的人多了，所以通過的也就多了，我這個邏輯到這裡都沒有問題吧？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒問題，完全對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，沒有問題。接下來，請問主委知道我們新北現在有幾個客庄？有幾個客社？有幾個伯公照護站嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們新北客庄有嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：客庄？我們新北有客庄？"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該說不是整個區是客庄，它是一個小庄頭，我們認定超過50%的小庄頭就稱為客庄。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以鄉鎮的部分是用什麼樣的小庄頭，庄頭是用什麼樣的行政區？"],["古主任委員秀妃：以村里為基礎。"],["蘇委員巧慧：村里的部分？我們來看一下，村里的部分是客社啊！鄉鎮市區的客家人口在三分之一以上列為客家文化重點發展區嘛！所以妳的意思是包括市、區，也都可以？"],["古主任委員秀妃：包括市、區，要在三分之一以上。"],["蘇委員巧慧：三分之一嘛？"],["古主任委員秀妃：它就是客家重點發展區，剛才委員有提到我們今年範圍的擴大並不是在三分之一的客家重點發展區，而是一個小庄頭、村里只要超過50%以上的客家人口就列為客家的村里。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委我覺得您這樣子……我替你做了個整理，客庄和客社的申請條件及認定條件有兩個，一個是區域範圍，是您剛剛提到的地理狀態，客庄是鄉鎮市區，客社是用村里，到這邊沒有問題嘛，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：然後是客家人口比例是三分之一，這麼高額的比例就是客庄，你剛剛提到客家人口在三成以上或講客語的二分之一以上，這是你們認定客社的條件，不是這樣嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個部分沒有問題嘛？所以在這兩個條件下，我剛剛的問題是問你，新北市有客庄或客社嗎？據我們的了解，因為新北市的客家社團、客家人口雖然有67萬人，但是它非常的散居，所以這種散居的生活型態回歸到剛剛的認定方式，只有在新北市三峽區的五寮里可以符合被認定客社，不要說客庄了，對我們來講連客社都因為散居得太嚴重，所以很難認定嘛！所以我剛剛第一個問題是問新北有客庄嗎？你跟我講有，我是非常疑惑，我心中有問號，我們連認定客社都這麼難了，就這麼一個而已啊！這是我們新北的狀況。","好，我再問主委，我們新北有伯公照護站嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：照目前是可以來申請，但是沒有人來申請。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，因為我們可以申請的就只有一個村里而已，所以它沒有去申請的話，新北的伯公照護站是「0」啊！這麼好的政策，我們67萬客家人口僅次於桃園，是全國第二多客家人的地方，也是最多人口的直轄市、客家人口第二多的直轄市，結果我們一站伯公照護站都沒有，你不覺得這個狀況很奇怪嗎？我們會認為這個問題到底是宣傳不夠力，比如你剛剛自己也在這邊繞著說，我們的申請條件是要客庄或客社才能來申請，但是現在條件有放寬，你講了很多，可是我幫你整理成表格之後，看起來沒有啊！我們新北能夠符合的很少，少之又少，所以我們連申請條件都過不了關，更不要說成立了，對不對？主委，如果是這樣，我要求您是不是應該再想辦法調整申請伯公照護站的條件，讓散居人口式的地區也有機會加入這麼好的政策。主委，您的意見呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以，我們再來檢討及思考，看看有什麼辦法讓新北、臺北等這些都市地區可以申請。"],["蘇委員巧慧：回到照護站目的的部分，既然目的是這麼好的狀況，我認為正因為我們是散居的生活型態，如果能夠多幾個伯公照護站，就可以成為地方的新文化傳承中心，這新文化中心對我們客家來講，才是真正重要的事情，可以把規模縮小，然後預算看是要大家均分還是用怎麼樣的方式？","不過我覺得你現在很可惜，因為你的預算現在被刪凍這麼多，光是伯公照護站就被刪了700萬，我看今年新增照護站的預算大概也都必須要減少了吧！主委，今年的伯公照護站預算有減少嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有減少，每個站點平均減少17%。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！我們已經少經費了，這樣刪凍下去，連伯公照護站經費都沒有，更不用輪到我們來申請了。主委，我明確的在這裡要求您對散居型態的──如新北市應該要提出怎麼增設伯公照護站的規劃，希望在會期結束前能夠有您客委會的想法，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以，我們會馬上研究及規劃。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝妳。我們在下次解凍預算的時候，也許就可以增加申請的機會，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝。"],["主席：請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-10","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","林思銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00001"}}},{"id":"160220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df9943ad8dd27ba5df2888cb4ea3dfb6c0ebda33721556222a9cc3a2a7c74431455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:05:47 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謝謝主席 有請郭部長謝謝部長 謝謝是 卓偉部長好最近我有機會跟日本前防衛的大臣有一些這個討論 私底下討論這個講到國防預算中國的國防預算的規模是日本的三倍到四倍"},{"start":28.496,"end":54.795,"text":"中國的國防預算規模是台灣的40倍這個預算的差距我們必須要考量我們有這個當我們的援軍沒有辦法及時到的時候我們要有自主防衛能量自主防衛能量一定要足夠的國防預算來支應所以目前我們目標日本2027要提到GDP的2%"},{"start":57.397,"end":85.405,"text":"2027他們的目標他們是以每年差不多好像是0.2的程度然後一直到2027到一定的年沒有他告訴我2027到2%嘛我最近看到的好像他是逐步在提升當中他跟我講的嘛他跟我講的2027到2%嘛我會朝向這個目標我們是希望徵詢能夠到3%我那天在院會質詢這個卓院長他說3%是我們階段性的目標"},{"start":86.405,"end":106.756,"text":"那美國也希望說我們再提高到3.4不管到3%或3.4%當然這預算規模很大但是跟中國的國防預算規模的差距還是很大所以我覺得應該逐步啊來增加這個國防預算佔GDP的比例那部長你有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":107.931,"end":130.618,"text":"總統已經宣示了3%是我們要達到另外我想如果總統的意思上來看的話3%也不是最後的一個底線還有可能往上增加不過重點是在於我們這個要依照我們防衛作戰的實際需要這個是因為我們"},{"start":132.182,"end":138.713,"text":"中國這麼大,那我們不可能跟他比這個所以我們不對稱的這個關鍵戰力總統說要編列特別預算,你這期程有沒有規劃?"},{"start":149.298,"end":161.505,"text":"我們當然正在進行規劃你這個回答比較抽象,也速度比較慢我們會後再討論,繼續請教第二個問題"},{"start":167.849,"end":191.051,"text":"這個我們用FMS跟DCS 日本也面臨同樣的問題他們也會分散對其他美國之外國家的相關軍事合作比方說他們跟義大利 比方說他們跟英國去次世代的戰機的研發所以FMS跟DCS 為什麼提到DCS因為它有助於對美貿易逆差的平衡"},{"start":192.132,"end":214.559,"text":"對美國貿易順差的平衡我想請教我們採用FMS DCS是您決定還是軍種的司令決定還是美國做決定我們基本上跟委員報告我們如果能夠採取軍售的管道的話那主要當然是跟美國"},{"start":215.768,"end":243.342,"text":"才有這個軍售的管道嘛那原則上如果有軍售的這個管道那又能夠縮短這個軍售的流程的話我們還是會以軍售為主但如果沒有辦法不適宜透過軍售的我們就會改採商售的方式有些非機敏性比方說旅遊採購F35非機敏性的比方說一些這個裝備的維持"},{"start":245.56,"end":273.881,"text":"也沒有相關的高端技術的管制所以這部分我們有五大信貸產業包括軍工我們怎麼樣透過DCS來協助軍工產業的發展這個很重要日本防衛廳他給我們訊息是有些是要美國會決定一定要採取FMS大部分不會大部分就是看你自己的需求"},{"start":275.379,"end":302.605,"text":"所以DCS跟FMS我的理解是國內來做決定那國內我了解三軍 軍種各有不同的本位思考有些軍種他比較傾向於這個軍購即便軍購他的這個效率契約的保障他的成本也比較貴他還是會採用軍購 我不知道什麼原因有些軍種卻反而會接受從成本考量 從這個契約的保障"},{"start":303.752,"end":329.514,"text":"你商售他有受缺的管制軍售沒有喔所以這部分你們要特別注意到這一點所以我覺得每項重大的國中採購你要走FMS還是DCS我希望部長您能夠掌握您能夠理解是我們這邊會有部裡面的連參報上來之後我這邊會有掌握還是你叫軍總自行去決定"},{"start":330.547,"end":356.669,"text":"沒有 軍種一定要到你那邊所以每個軍售案子你都會了解是好我看一下這比較表國防自主航太產業第三章對外軍售跟對內的自己相關的這個研發經費我們是給國外國內沒有所以如果是對內"},{"start":358.444,"end":386.722,"text":"我們是用這個對內的方式來用DCS它對國內相當常常可以合作漢翔是我們的這個航帶產業重要的一個龍頭也是在我的選區對不對它如果能夠把這些技術把這些生產能量留在台灣企業也有收入對軍工產業也有幫忙為什麼這比例還是要走FIMS"},{"start":388.24,"end":411.482,"text":"所以這個原則你們要把握清楚一定要非國防自主非尖端性非機敏性的美國沒有特別意見的基本上如果把商源留在國內帶動五大西端產業軍工產業發展我想這個很重要我希望每一項到底要FMS還是DCS我希望部長都能夠深切去掌握因為我有接到一些訊息"},{"start":412.796,"end":427.283,"text":"本來應該很合理 用常識來判斷不用用照驗資質來判斷 用常識來判斷應該走DCS結果莫名其妙就非得走FMS你要去了解一下我們不討論個案我討論到我所理解的狀況我想我把這個問題丟出來你們去檢討一下我說這個一定有所本"},{"start":440.611,"end":455.028,"text":"報告我們現在手裡頭29個軍售案裡面都是我們目前自主能力上面比較不足的必須採取向對外採購的方式那當然我們"},{"start":456.269,"end":478.375,"text":"我掌握有很多國內做會比軍種產還好而且兩岸變成結果兩岸變成結果在你們的工合會議室基本上是贊成DCS後來在某些軍種就變成叫FMS這部分你去了解這轉折到底是合不合理你們去了解 我不討論個案另外兩領請"},{"start":483.203,"end":511.299,"text":"在陳水扁總統任內撤除了兩獎臨請桃園縣政府當時候是朱立倫當縣長一紙公文說為了這個地方觀光所需啊地方觀光所需請國防部再恢復原來的這個所謂兩獎臨請臨請是帝王的墳墓臨請的所謂衛兵的守護工作從97年到現在一紙公文"},{"start":512.469,"end":534.341,"text":"好 請教部長如果為了振興所需 其他縣市能不能比較辦理我高雄市有義民廟我能不能請義民廟 到義民廟來這邊來做相關的守護或者操演為了觀光所需 國軍要配合地方的觀光業務嗎"},{"start":539.457,"end":566.656,"text":"從97年到現在那你現在說後來我那天問你你答不出來後來你們給我公文我才知道怎麼回事是因為桃園縣政府要求你們一紙公文叫你們為了配合地方觀光發展現在還 你調查一下去兩場領請一年去多少次去多少人我們需要花那麼多納稅的人錢去為獨裁者去墳墓做這些事情嗎"},{"start":568.426,"end":597.302,"text":"跟委員報告,我覺得根本的解決之道就我了解在民國93年1月27號蔣芳良女士還在世的時候曾經致函本部表達這個宜林安奉五指山國軍四萬公墓的一個意願所以如果能夠採取蔣芳良女士的這個遺願的這樣的一個做法,可能是一個根本的解決之道你那個是落後資訊,97年陳水扁總統任內就已經撤除了"},{"start":597.862,"end":608.883,"text":"是因為一紙公文才恢復的這個公文這個是你們的公文給我的當時確實前總統陳勝明先生是有批示啦那我覺得也曾經撤出過一段時間啊"},{"start":611.201,"end":630.761,"text":"不是,就是說他當時是說批示說尊重家屬的意願,因國葬法的統慎辦理,用事尊重就這個部分我想如果說還是以這個能夠宜林安鳳的話,我想這才是可能根本的解決之道那97年到現在多久了?"},{"start":632.076,"end":659.633,"text":"那我想我們再來持續溝通你派駐一隊國軍進駐在這個兩蔣臨請的依據是什麼就是桃園縣政府一紙公文嘛那我問你是不是其他縣政府可以比照辦理呢那你那個部長不能回答這個是哪一個單位負責督導的這後備司令部我講的有沒有錯"},{"start":660.626,"end":681.8,"text":"委員好 這個有關委員剛剛提的那個 領請的部分那針對領請這幾個字 後備指揮部在針對你們要檢討這我知道啦 是是是但是我說的是 你們當初派出的依據是什麼你們給我的公文答覆是依偎豪營縣政府一紙公文嘛 為了地方振興地方觀光所需嘛"},{"start":682.6,"end":703.651,"text":"沒有錯吧 是你們去檢討一下如果這樣子的話 其他縣市能不能比照辦理鮑委員 針對這件事情我們已經通令我們已經發文給桃園市政府預計在5月10號以前會邀集總統府行政院及桃園市政府等單位來做一個研討及做一個修訂但後續各縣市政府都會比照這一次的辦理我們在5月10號前會開一個聯審會議"},{"start":706.004,"end":729.97,"text":"如果我不質詢 我不要求 這個問題永遠 永遠加在那邊永遠就是 你轉型沒有辦法去執行我覺得你們要積極一點 是 部長你要全盤掌握 部長也許你這個 國事如馬恐怕沒有辦法針對這件事情全盤掌握我希望說 後備指揮官能夠跟部長再詳細說明因為經濟快輪到我質詢了"},{"start":732.455,"end":733.199,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝韋"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，邱委員。"],["邱委員志偉：部長好。最近我有機會跟日本前防衛的大臣有一些私底下討論，講到國防預算，中國的國防預算規模是日本的3倍到4倍，中國的國防預算規模是臺灣的40倍，預算的差距，我們必須要考量當我們的援軍沒有辦法及時到的時候，我們要有自主防衛能量，可是自主防衛能量一定要有足夠的國防預算來支應嘛，所以目前我們的目標，日本2027要提到GDP的2%，2027他們的目標。"],["顧部長立雄：他們是以每年差不多好像是0.2的程度……"],["邱委員志偉：對啦，他們的目標就是2027到2%。"],["顧部長立雄：然後一直到27……到一定的年……"],["邱委員志偉：沒有，他告訴我2027到2%嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：我最近看到的好像它是逐步在提升當中。"],["邱委員志偉：他跟我講的嘛！他跟我講2027到2%嘛，會朝向這個目標，我們是希望爭取能夠到3%，我那天在院會質詢卓院長，他說3%是我們階段性的目標，美國也希望我們能提高到3.4%，不管到3%或3.4%，當然這預算規模很大，但是跟中國的國防預算規模的差距還是很大，所以我覺得應該逐步來增加國防預算占GDP的比例，部長你有沒有什麼想法？"],["顧部長立雄：總統已經宣示了3%是我們要達到，另外我想如果以總統的意思上來看的話，3%也不是最後的一個底線……"],["邱委員志偉：對，還可能滾動式調整，那它要……"],["顧部長立雄：還有可能往上增加，不過重點是在於我們要依照我們防衛作戰的實際需要……"],["邱委員志偉：當然是啊！"],["顧部長立雄：因為中國這麼大，我們不可能跟它比這個……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，不對稱戰力很重要。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們不對稱的關鍵戰力……"],["邱委員志偉：總統說要編列特別預算，這個期程你有沒有規劃了？"],["顧部長立雄：我們當然正在進行規劃。"],["邱委員志偉：好啦，你回答得比較抽象，你速度比較慢，我們會後再討論。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我繼續請教第二個問題，我們用FMS跟DCS，日本也面臨同樣的問題，他們也會分散對其他美國之外國家的相關的軍事合作，比方說他們跟義大利、比方說他們跟英國去進行次世代戰機的研發，所謂FMS跟DCS，為什麼提到DCS？因為它有助於對美貿易逆差的平衡，對美國貿易順差的平衡，我想請教我們採用FMS、DCS是您決定還是軍種的司令決定，還是美國做決定？"],["顧部長立雄：基本上跟委員報告，我們如果能夠採取軍售的管道的話……"],["邱委員志偉：總要有個標準嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：主要當然是跟美國才有軍售的管道，原則上如果有軍售的管道，又能夠縮短軍售的流程的話，我們還是會以軍售為主。"],["邱委員志偉：如果非機敏性的……"],["顧部長立雄：但如果沒有辦法、不適宜透過軍售的，我們就會改採商售的方式。"],["邱委員志偉：有些非機敏性，比方說你如果採購F-35，非機敏性的，比方說一些裝備的維持，也沒有相關高端技術的管制，我們有五大信賴產業，包括軍工，所以這個部分我們怎麼樣透過DCS來協助軍工產業的發展，這個很重要。日本防衛廳給我們的訊息是，有些要美國會決定一定務必要採取FMS，大部分不會，大部分就是看你自己的需求，所以DCS跟FMS我的理解是國內來做決定，國內我了解三軍軍種各有不同的本位思考，有些軍種比較傾向於軍購，即便其軍購效率、契約保障，成本也比較貴，他還是會採用軍購，我不知道什麼原因，有些軍種卻反而會接受，從成本考量、從契約保障，商售有受契約的管制，軍售沒有喔！這部分你們要特別注意到這一點。所以對於每項重大的國防採購要走FMS還是DCS，我希望部長能夠掌握、能夠理解。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們這邊會由部裡面的聯參報上來之後，我這邊會有掌握。"],["邱委員志偉：還是你叫軍種自行去決定？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，軍種都要報到……"],["邱委員志偉：一定會到你那邊，所以每個軍售案子你都會了解？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我們看一下這個比較表，國防自主航太產業對外軍售跟對內自己相關的研發，如果是對外，經費我們是給國外，國內沒有受益；如果是對內，我們對內的方式是用DCS，對國內相當的廠商可以合作，漢翔是我們航太產業的重要龍頭，也是在我的選區，對不對？它如果能夠把這些技術、這些生產能量留在臺灣，企業也有收入，對軍工產業也有幫忙，為什麼這比例還是要走FMS？所以這個原則你們要把握清楚，一定要非尖端性、非機敏性的、美國沒有特別意見的，基本上如果把商源留在國內，帶動這五大信賴產業的軍工產業發展，我想這個很重要，我也希望每一項到底要FMS還是DCS，部長都能夠深切去掌握，因為我有接到一些訊息，本來應該很合理，用常識來判斷，不要用專業知識判斷，用常識判斷應該走DCS，結果莫名其妙就非得走FMS，你要去了解一下，我們不討論個案，我討論到我所理解的狀況。"],["顧部長立雄：我請戰規司回應一下。"],["邱委員志偉：我想我只是要把這問題丟出來，你們去檢討一下，我說這個一定有所本。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們現在手裡頭29個軍售案裡面，都是我們目前自主能力上面比較不足的，必須採取對外採購的方式，當然我們……"],["邱委員志偉：我有掌握到很多國內做會比軍事採購還好。"],["黃司長文啓：對，所以只要能夠國內自製的，我們一定國內自製。"],["邱委員志偉：兩案併陳的結果，你們的工合會議基本上是贊成DCS，後來在某些軍種就變成FMS，這部分你去了解這個轉折到底合不合理，你們去了解，我不討論個案。","另外，兩蔣陵寢，在陳水扁總統任內撤除掉兩蔣陵寢，桃園縣政府當時是朱立倫當縣長，一紙公文說為了地方觀光所需，請國防部再恢復原來的兩蔣陵寢，陵寢是帝王的墳墓，陵寢的衛兵守護工作從97年到現在，就靠一紙公文。好，請教部長，如果為了振興所需，其他縣市能不能比照辦理？我高雄市有義民廟，能不能請他們來義民廟這邊做相關的守護或者操演？為了觀光所需，國軍要配合地方的觀光業務嗎？從97年到現在，我那天問你，你答不出來，後來你們給我公文，我才知道怎麼回事，是因為桃園縣政府要求你們，一紙公文叫你們配合地方觀光發展，現在你調查一下，去兩蔣陵寢一年去多少人次？我們需要花那麼多納稅人的錢去為獨裁者的墳墓做這些事情嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我覺得根本的解決之道，就我了解，在民國93年1月27號，蔣方良女士還在世的時候曾經致函本部表達移靈安奉五指山國軍示範公墓的意願，所以如果能夠採取蔣方良女士遺願這樣的作法，可能是一個根本的解決之道。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，我打斷你，你那個是落後資訊，97年陳水扁總統任內就已經撤除了，是因為一紙公文才恢復的。"],["顧部長立雄：對，當時……"],["邱委員志偉：這個是你們的公文給我的。"],["顧部長立雄：當時確實前總統陳水扁先生是有批示，我覺得我們可以……"],["邱委員志偉：也曾經撤除過一段時間啊！"],["顧部長立雄：不是，就是他當時批示：尊重家屬意願，並依國葬法妥慎辦理，用示尊崇。就這個部分，如果能夠移靈安奉的話，我想這才是可能根本的解決之道。"],["邱委員志偉：97年到現在多久了？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們再來持續溝通。"],["邱委員志偉：你現在派駐的依據是什麼？你派駐儀隊，國軍進駐兩蔣陵寢的依據是什麼？就是桃園縣政府一紙公文嘛！那我問你，是不是其他縣市政府可以比照辦理呢？部長不能回答，這個是哪一個單位負責督導？"],["顧部長立雄：這個是後備司令部。"],["邱委員志偉：司令部，我講的有沒有錯？"],["薛參謀長淵銓：委員好。委員，有關委員剛剛提的陵寢的部分，針對陵寢這幾個字，後備指揮部在針對……"],["邱委員志偉：你們要檢討，這我知道。"],["薛參謀長淵銓：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但是我說的是你們當初派駐的依據是什麼？你們給我的公文答復是因為桃園縣政府一紙公文，為了振興地方觀光所需，沒有錯吧？"],["薛參謀長淵銓：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你們去檢討一下，如果這樣子的話，其他縣市政府能不能比照辦理？"],["薛參謀長淵銓：報告委員，針對這件事情，我們已經發文給桃園市政府，預計在5月10號以前會邀集總統府、行政院及桃園市政府等單位來做一個研討及修訂，當然後續各縣市政府都會比照這次辦理，我們在5月10號前會開一個聯審會議。"],["邱委員志偉：如果我不質詢、不要求，這個問題永遠僵在那邊，轉型正義永遠沒有辦法執行，我覺得你們要積極一點。"],["薛參謀長淵銓：是。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你要全盤掌握，顧部長，也許你國事如麻，恐怕沒有辦法針對這件事情全盤掌握，我希望後備指揮部能夠跟部長再詳細說明。","因為經濟委員會快輪到我質詢了，謝謝部長，謝謝各位同仁，謝謝召委。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請蘇清泉委員上臺質詢，蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員上臺質詢，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢，葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員上臺質詢，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員及黃仁委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，再請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-8","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳冠廷","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","吳宗憲","邱志偉","林憶君","黃仁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1143702_00005"}}},{"id":"160219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279dfba6290c4e8a55367a3fd8a5ba555e825ebda33721556222a55ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:07:03 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因為不要過於自信我要再提一次就是在川普還沒宣布關稅32%以前我們就宣布了把我們手中的王牌台積電赴美投資一千億"},{"start":192.93,"end":219.464,"text":"自信的認為說這樣子就可以避免高關稅但是發現了說這個太早亮牌太早亮牌就白白浪費了我們的談判籌碼外交貿易談判像日本韓國都沒有在一開始就宣布加碼投資都等到談判進行中才開始交涉那財政部在未來的這80天接近80天的這個因為大概4月9號宣布了所以在未來這80天要更加謹慎"},{"start":220.965,"end":246.923,"text":"那剛剛提到說不管是32%還是10%最後調升多少這些物價反應都是在我們所有包括你我這些消費者身上那請教部長中研院下修台灣經濟成長預測3.1%目標是難以達成你的看法如何跟中研院一樣嗎我想中研院他們是一個非常專責的機構也是國家一個智庫這個部分我想他們的"},{"start":247.931,"end":255.434,"text":"評估有他們的一個道理那整個局勢事實上都一直在變嘛現在一下32%一下回到10%那未來會是多少我想我們的經貿團隊去談判團隊一定會為國家爭取最大的利益以及維護產業的國際競爭力會以這樣的一個目標來做進行那這個訊息事實上是時常都在變化的"},{"start":270.28,"end":298.519,"text":"那就我們政府機關來說我們就做好準備同時對於委員所提到對於需要輔助的產業我們都應該要有這個支持方案來給予他們的一個支持部長我在這邊要跟部長討論一個方案就是不管結果如何所有的民眾生活一定是受到嚴重的影響那所以說好比在疫場期間的一個紓困貸款一樣我們有看到財政部目前有嚴密嚴肅對於中小企業的這個紓困貸款"},{"start":300.18,"end":325.88,"text":"但是我是希望說財政部能夠督導公股銀行研擬給勞工一般民眾的紓困貸款因為我們未來不管是結果如何都一定是32%也好或者是比現在10%更高對於台灣所有產業的衝擊都非常的大那最簡單的如果說這些產業我們剛剛提到的中小企業的紓困貸款那"},{"start":329.563,"end":349.268,"text":"國內的產業受到衝擊之後 他們最簡單最常見的方式就是裁員 公司瘦身那所以對於這樣子有可能被裁員的這些基層民眾那一被裁員 他可能是一個家庭的重心這個家庭就馬上失去了這樣子的一個經濟來源"},{"start":351.249,"end":367.523,"text":"那還有房貸要繳家人要養所以我是希望說部長能夠跟金管會勞動部一起研議提出針對一般民眾的紓困貸款針對年收入較低的這些族群給他們一個方案部長願不願意這樣做"},{"start":370.105,"end":395.964,"text":"謝謝委員我想在勞動部在這一次的一個碰到這樣的一個關稅的衝擊他也有提出相關的一個支持方案在裡面對於勞工朋友受到衝擊都有相關的一些協助的一些措施那自己在金融的部分就所知金管會會跟銀行工會這邊會來做討論做一些寬緩的設施如果這個措施出來以後我們的公股行股當然應該依照金管會所訂的一個以及銀行工會所訂的規範來做執行是"},{"start":399.57,"end":407.755,"text":"請部長跟勞動部還有金管會互相的來做一個溝通跟聯繫是的 謝謝委員謝謝部長你請回請經濟部姜政次好 次長"},{"start":418.567,"end":438.462,"text":"委員好次長好次長川普在上個禮拜宣布對等關稅暫緩實施90天那但是對中國關稅並沒有暫緩所以中國關稅高達125%那世界各國都很擔心後續引起的這些中國產品的傾銷透過第三地、席產地這些部份我想大家都討論很多"},{"start":439.162,"end":448.519,"text":"那看來財政部跟經濟部我們看了你們的報告所以財政部跟經濟部所採取的應對措施大致都相同就是嚴格審查那如果發現違規就進行懲處"},{"start":450.97,"end":469.665,"text":"那我想其他國家也一樣都很擔心中國產品傾銷的問題不只是台灣啦印尼跟我們一樣都被川普課徵32%的對等關稅那他們因此印尼國內各個產業也都跳出來呼籲說印尼政府要迅速採取行動"},{"start":470.606,"end":485.092,"text":"那我相信不只是印尼包括越南南韓等其他國家都會面臨到中國產品傾銷的威脅我想請教次長說是否考慮跟其他國家合作如何維護公平貿易營造公平貿易的環境這部分"},{"start":485.842,"end":515.417,"text":"是分兩點跟委員說明第一點我們現在的進口監測不是只有針對中國的進口產品而是全世界因為我們害怕的擔心的是說未來會被這個科與高關稅國家的產品也會進入到台灣的市場第二點因為我們跟這些國家通通都有平常就往來有經貿的這個互動所以我們也是有透過我們相關駐外單位的同仁"},{"start":516.041,"end":522.425,"text":"去跟當地的政府去了解他們的相關做法為何作為我們的相關參考我認為說除了鋼鐵半導體之外我們更應該注意我們的紡織業因為就我們看到這880億裡面700億是給"},{"start":532.172,"end":546.765,"text":"這個工業的部分那180億是農業的部分那我沒有看到針對紡織的部分有做任何的一個規劃那中國大陸的這些紡織品衣服 襪子這些東西原本要銷售到美國的"},{"start":547.406,"end":572.755,"text":"那有可能因為這樣子的關係所以就會跑到中國跑到台灣或者跑到東南亞任何一個台灣是可能是台灣日本韓國這個都有可能那所以說原來像同樣一件衣服在淘寶買比在蝦皮或任何的廠商的這個資深網站更加的便宜甚至於半價甚至於半價所以不只是衣服包含生活小物這些東西都有很大的價差"},{"start":573.835,"end":592.911,"text":"那這樣子的話我們台灣自身的這些紡織業要如何生存其實這些問題已經存在非常久了市長也知道說這一次我們這些紡織業者非常的困難那如何能夠提出具體的協助部長可以簡單說明一下市長"},{"start":593.968,"end":616.739,"text":"是分三點來說明第一點呢政府所推出的這個881並沒有排除紡織業所以紡織產業如果有需要的話也可以來申請試用第二點呢我們也主動的去跟我們的紡織業者有做交流我們有部分的業者呢其實他是生產據點是在其他的國家所以他們也會做"},{"start":617.559,"end":645.8,"text":"產能的調度第三點呢也是一樣對於中國會進來的紡織品我們從邊境就會開始做相關的管制也是會做相關進口量以及金額的這個監測如果有異常的話我們會去跟這個會不會輸美來做相關的勾結有異常的廠商名單會交給這個財政部來做這個高風險的這個名單的特別的這個監督以及查核市長請回謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":700,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時7分）謝謝，特別感謝主席。各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長早。部長，川普發布了對等關稅，對台灣祭出32%的措施，衝擊全球經濟，在4月10日的凌晨又改口將暫緩實施90天，期間是實施10%的關稅，弄得大家人心惶惶，也衝擊了百工百業，我們的報稅季又要到了，卓院長在上星期行政院院會上表示會跟財政部這邊討論，延長5月開始的報稅期，會比照COVID-19疫情期間的模式，請問部長研究得如何，這個報稅期限能不能延長到6月底？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們所得稅結算申報會延長1個月，到6月30日，我們近日會辦理公告。"],["顏委員寬恒：近日會公告？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：我想如果能夠延長報稅的期限，在目前這種不確定性的時期，對企業跟民眾將會有實質的幫助，減輕他們的負擔，希望財政部能夠迅速而且具體延長報稅的安排，讓民眾有更多的時間可以來應對目前的困境。明天行政院院會會討論新臺幣880億的支持產業方案特別條例，也會送到立法院來審議，法案通過之後，特別預算會再送來立法院，請教部長，請你簡單的跟我們說明財政部知道的部分，包含條例的財源還有金額目前由行政院喊出880億，會不會設上限？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關特別條例的部分，行政院目前都在逐條研擬當中，同時也去聽取產業的意見，對於相關需要不足的部分，看要不要再補強，這個部分都還會再進入討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以沒有上限？"],["莊部長翠雲：至於880億的部分，金額是不是在條例裡面做特別的規定，可能會在他們院裡面再做討論，重點在於我們對於財源的部分，剛剛委員提到特別條例通過以後要編列特別預算，它的財源第一個會來自於歲計賸餘或者用舉債的方式來做支應。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，這一次的關稅風波，我認為不分朝野都希望能夠讓國內業者的損失降低，降到最低，所以支持產業方案是非常重要的，要請部長多加留意，不要過於自信。我要再提一次，在川普還沒宣布關稅32%以前，我們就宣布我們手中的王牌台積電要赴美投資1,000億，自信地認為這樣子就可以避免高關稅，但是後來發現太早亮牌，而白白浪費了我們的談判籌碼。在外交貿易談判部分，像日本、韓國都沒有在一開始就宣布加碼投資，都等到談判進行中才開始交涉。財政部在未來接近80天的時間，因為是在4月9號宣布，所以在未來的這80天要更加謹慎，剛剛提到不管是32%還是10%，最後調升多少，物價的反映都是在所有包括你我、消費者的身上。請教部長，中研院下修台灣經濟成長預測，3.1%的目標是難以達成，你的看法如何？跟中研院一樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：中研院是一個非常專責的機構，也是國家的智庫，我想他們的評估是有其道理，事實上整個局勢都一直在變，一下32%，一下回到10%，未來會是多少？我想我們的經貿談判團隊一定會為國家爭取最大的利益，以及維護產業的國際競爭力，會以這樣的目標來進行。訊息是時常都在變化的，就政府機關來說，我們就是做好準備，同時對於委員所提到的，針對需要扶助的產業，我們都應該要有支持方案來給予他們支持。"],["顏委員寬恒：我在這邊要跟部長討論一個方案，就是不管結果如何，所有的民眾生活一定是受到嚴重的影響，好比在疫情期間的紓困貸款一樣，我們看到財政部目前有在研擬對於中小企業的紓困貸款，但是我是希望財政部能夠督導公股銀行研擬給勞工、一般民眾的紓困貸款，因為未來不管結果如何，32%也好或者是比現在的10%更高，對於台灣所有產業的衝擊都非常地大。我們剛剛提到的中小企業紓困貸款，如果國內的產業受到衝擊之後，他們最簡單、最常見的方式就是裁員，讓公司瘦身，所以對於有可能被裁員的這些基層民眾，他可能是一個家庭的重心，一被裁員，這個家庭就馬上失去了經濟來源，但是還有房貸要繳、家人要養。因此我希望部長能夠跟金管會、勞動部一起研議提出針對一般民眾的紓困貸款，針對年收入較低的這些族群，給他們一個方案，部長願不願意這樣做？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，勞動部在這一次碰到這樣的關稅衝擊，它也有提出相關的支持方案，裡面對於勞工朋友所受到的衝擊都有相關的一些協助措施。至於在金融的部分，就我所知，金管會會跟銀行公會做討論，做一些寬緩的措施，如果這個措施出來以後，我們的公股行庫當然應該依照金管會以及銀行公會所訂定的規範來執行。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，再請部長跟勞動部及金管會互相來做一個溝通與研議。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝部長，你請回。","我請經濟部江政次。"],["主席：請次長。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長好。次長，川普在上個禮拜宣布對等關稅暫緩實施90天，但是對中國關稅並沒有暫緩，所以中國關稅高達125%，世界各國都很擔心後續引起中國產品的傾銷，透過第三地洗產地的這些部分我想大家都討論很多。我們看了財政部跟經濟部的報告，看來財政部跟經濟部所採取的應對措施大致都相同，就是嚴格審查，如果發現違規就進行懲處。我想其他國家也一樣都很擔心中國產品傾銷的問題，不只是台灣，印尼跟我們一樣都被川普課徵32%的對等關稅，因此印尼國內各個產業也都跳出來呼籲印尼政府要迅速採取行動。我相信不只是印尼，包括越南、南韓等其他國家都會面臨到中國產品傾銷的威脅。我想請教次長，是否考慮跟其他國家合作，看如何維護公平貿易、營造公平貿易的環境？"],["江次長文若：分兩點跟委員說明，第一點，我們現在的進口監測不是只有針對中國的進口產品，而是對全世界，因為我們害怕、擔心的是，未來被課予高關稅國家的產品也會進入到台灣市場。第二點，因為我們跟這些國家平常就有往來，通通都有經貿的互動，所以我們也是有透過相關駐外單位同仁去跟當地政府了解他們的相關作法為何，以作為我們的參考。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長，我認為除了鋼鐵、半導體之外，我們更應該注意紡織業，因為就我們看到的這880億裡面，其中700億是工業部分、180億是農業部分，我沒有看到針對紡織的部分有做任何的規劃，中國大陸的紡織品，衣服、襪子這些東西原本要銷售到美國的，有可能因為這樣子的關係就會跑到台灣或者跑到東南亞任何一個國家，台灣、日本、韓國都有可能。原來同樣一件衣服在淘寶買比在蝦皮或任何廠商的自身網站更加便宜，甚至於半價，所以不只是衣服，包含生活小物，這些東西都有很大的價差，這樣子的話，台灣自身的這些紡織業要如何生存？其實這些問題已經存在非常久了，次長也知道這一次這些紡織業者非常地困難，如何能夠提出具體的協助，次長可以簡單說明一下嗎？"],["江次長文若：分三點來說明，第一點，政府所推出的880億並沒有排除紡織業，所以紡織產業如果有需要的話，也可以來申請適用。第二點，我們也主動去跟紡織業者做交流，有部分的業者其實生產據點是在其他的國家，所以他們也會做產能的調度。第三點，也是一樣，對於中國進來的紡織品，我們從邊境就會開始做相關的管制，也會做進口量以及金額的監測，如果有異常的話，我們會針對會不會輸美來做相關的勾稽，有異常的廠商名單會交給財政部來做高風險名單的特別監督及查核。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝，次長請回。"],["主席：謝謝寬恒委員，我們先休息10分鐘。","休息（11時17分）","繼續開會（11時28分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","林思銘","陳玉珍","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","黃國昌","林楚茵","徐富癸","陳冠廷","牛煦庭","黃捷","邱志偉"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、農業部及公平交易委員會就「防範中國大陸產品低價傾銷及透\n過台灣洗產地問題之因應策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00003"}}},{"id":"160217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df0b7886baa331ff29b2710058b23c04f8ebda33721556222aaca9bc7b5eabd6695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:01:40 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請郭部長"},{"start":20.851,"end":27.276,"text":"美國原先規劃了台灣的要課徵32%的對等關稅在4月9日宣布了各國的對等關稅暫緩了90天而且只是徵收了10%的基準關稅這也是有給我們充足的時間可以對於未來整個情勢的演變做好準備"},{"start":44.308,"end":62.927,"text":"所以说我们的行政院也特别也下乡了去做一个我们产业的请听之旅来针对这个产业的对对等干税所面临的困境还有什么需求的部分的话来做协助部长您也有亲自过去第一站就到我们桃园"},{"start":63.527,"end":91.532,"text":"包括桃園台中彰化跟高雄那部長你也聽到說產業很多的需求這些需求除了你們六個層面去給協助幫忙之外那很多產業所提出來的問題部長你認為這些問題你有什麼解決的方案或者是你還有加強什麼哪些部分嗎是報告委員我想很多的這個在這個座談過程中發現有一些剛開始我們可能稍微沒有想到的問題那也非常好"},{"start":92.472,"end":101.612,"text":"透過這樣的一個座談我們發現有一些需要改正譬如說很多的業者關心我們會不會雨天收傘"},{"start":103.51,"end":132.022,"text":"那這個問題是當初我們沒有想像到的那也謝謝大家的關心我們馬上做出一個這個就貸展延的這樣的一個措施就是說就有了貸款當你有認為有需要的時候那麼你這個企業要繼續的經營下去利息可以繳我們同意馬上展延六個月展延六個月然後你可以繳息不還本然後信保基金的配合這些展延的保證"},{"start":133.603,"end":153.979,"text":"這個就是第一件事情再來就是說有的廠商反應說你這個保證的額度是不是能夠再加大一點我們這方面都有調整不是 你有認真聽因為我有參加這個座談所以產業提出來了不只是這些有關於電的問題還有土地的問題等等"},{"start":157.342,"end":160.125,"text":"就是因為他們本來要投資的現在因為對等關稅的問題可能會暫緩投資或是設廠的問題這個部分的話我們也希望橫向方面不管是跟國發會或是財政部那邊也給他們適當的一個比較暢通的溝通的管道好不好"},{"start":172.879,"end":190.516,"text":"是在桃園的部分確實如委員所指教的土地的問題我們現在因為桃園大概土地已經比較少了可以做生產的土地會比較少我們現在在南部嘉義以南大概有四個工業區是經濟部所屬的產業園區"},{"start":194.46,"end":210.663,"text":"然後這裡面大概加起來好幾百公頃那我們採取因為大家現在都覺得土地太貴像桃園的土地真的就是非常的貴不利於生產所以我們幫助他們我們現在的土地只租不售只租不售"},{"start":211.184,"end":234.721,"text":"那對於這個租金的部分我們都可以考慮在他現場的時候考慮給他一些或者是融資或者是他的租賃問題對這個部分我們都會根據業者他們的這個需求滾動式的這個改善也就是幫助這個業者能夠順利的這個返台然後在台灣所以部長這個我們已經開了四場後面還有幾場嗎還是各縣市會陸續依序我們會"},{"start":238.644,"end":267.784,"text":"各地來展開各地來展開這些因為你都去座談的市場你知道業界很多聲音很多需求必須要給大家給我們長官們知道才能夠給他們溝通給他們一個管道給他們做個協助這個才是我們的本意所以我們希望這方面的話我們就依序陸續在辦後面還有幾場呢你說辦座談會是不是對座談會我們大概目前我收到的大概有三場"},{"start":268.624,"end":279.289,"text":"還要再增加三場 包括新北 台南等等加起來有三場好 部長會有這種對等關稅的問題就是美國他要解決的他們這個逆差的問題嘛那這個逆差的問題的話我們賴總統的話也特別說要對美國擴大來增加這個"},{"start":287.272,"end":300.737,"text":"採購那部長您這邊的Title也說要針對這個最主要大宗的這個天然氣的採購那我們看到我們對美國的天然氣的採購是百分之在我們整個進口量來講的話是佔了百分之九點八"},{"start":301.677,"end":321.073,"text":"那因為美國我們購買的話運輸成本的問題要考慮到所以我們才會只有9.8%因為在美國運輸的話大概要20天左右那其他國家像澳洲的話大概是10天卡達的話大概是15天左右那現在我們跟美國擴大這天然氣的採購部長有沒有想到這成本問題那當然在3月20號的時候有提到說美國的阿拉斯加啦"},{"start":326.758,"end":332.182,"text":"阿拉斯加如果這個採礦採購這個天然氣的話它的運輸的話會縮減到10天那我們成本當然會降低但是還是未支出 還沒有採購雖然要投資將近440億美元但是哪些國家會投資有順利嗎就算你順利的話也在2030年那這個5年的時間我們對美國的採購天然氣的話"},{"start":352.498,"end":366.311,"text":"那有可能就會到他們的本土地方那本土的運輸還是一樣這麼久的時間運輸成本還是會提高難道部長還要讓我們中油跟台電要承受這個成本虧損的問題這麼嚴峻嗎"},{"start":369.039,"end":398.179,"text":"報告委員我想這個就是成本的問題啦那採購多少量量價這些都有關係啦那所以剛才那個鄭委員也有問我這個說為什麼我當初跟他講這個跟別的委員講這個幅度不太一樣確實是這樣子就是說因為量價的關係我們當然方向是未來的方向可能是朝一個比較高一點的目標啦這就是看談判的這樣的一個結果是怎麼樣子"},{"start":399.279,"end":415.208,"text":"所以我們也沒有辦法確定但是以目前來講不到10%的這個採購量我們當然是衡量怎麼樣子透過採購的力量然後可以讓我們取得的這個成本更低這個是我們的目標10年2000億的採購"},{"start":417.329,"end":420.93,"text":"剛剛有人問到這清單問題我覺得這清單我們不要被動它給我們什麼東西我們就買什麼要我們台灣有需要什麼我們去買什麼譬如說你天然氣我們有需要我們去購買那除了這個主要的這個原料跟天然氣以外還有很多的像機械的用具或者是電機設備精密的儀器跟航空器等等這些也是我們進口的大品項裡面"},{"start":443.635,"end":459.268,"text":"所以我們也可以把這些我們需求的量了多少把它放入清單我們主動出局主動提供去溝通這才是我們談判對雙方都有利的是不是是的我想談判都是彼此大家雙方來交換彼此的需求不是單方面的啦"},{"start":459.688,"end":479.687,"text":"都是雙方面的彼此交換需求然後去談出一個好的良善的一個結果所以我想委員所提示的這一些部分也都是我們考慮的範圍所以這要注意的也是我們考慮的範圍還有就是說美國對於各國的這個對等關稅率那其中"},{"start":481.516,"end":504.372,"text":"有其他國家會擔心一個洗產地為什麼提到這個部分就像菲律賓的話才18%新加坡的話10%那菲律賓的克克珍這個18%的稅率遠低於台灣的32%那我們政府若是依照你原先的計畫要到菲律賓設置這個產業園區的話會不會被美方認為說你是有特定要洗產地的嫌疑"},{"start":505.593,"end":530.325,"text":"報告委員我想我們目前大家在談的32% 18%這些都是暫定的稅率所以現在這些都已經被調到所謂的基本的稅率10%那我想這90天以後才會明朗化所以對我們來講我們都在爭取在台灣台灣的業者都可以找到一個具有競爭力的這樣的一個關稅條件"},{"start":533.146,"end":545.29,"text":"那我們在達成這個總統的這個日不落國的競爭條件也是一樣我們會幫助台灣的業者找到具有競爭這個位置競爭的這個區域來把他的這個市場擴大我們剛剛講過了這個全球的市場"},{"start":552.293,"end":573.415,"text":"我想剛才劉主委也講得非常清楚全球市場不是只有美國全球市場這麼大我們的模式就是幫助台灣的產業找到具有競爭力的方向找到這樣的競爭力的產品讓我們在台灣幫助它提升它的競爭力這個是我們經濟部最主要的工作"},{"start":574.335,"end":599.909,"text":"所以在這邊也提醒部長包括我們的劉組委跟我們次長那針對於這個對等關稅我們還是在這個整個清單裡面的話我們不是一定是天然氣也可以有新的核能新的核能的採購的話也是一個擴大採購的一個方式這也是可以做的那至於說這個稀產地這個方面的話我們也要多去關心"},{"start":600.849,"end":612.621,"text":"要注意這個問題不要被美國認為說我們是稀產地的話這樣子不利我們的談判邀請經濟部要去注意瞭解去掌握這所有的變化才能夠讓我們的產業能夠避開這個關稅的風險好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時1分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，美國原先規劃對臺灣要課徵32%的對等關稅，在4月9號宣布各國的對等關稅暫緩90天，而且只徵收10%的基本關稅，這也是給我們充裕的時間，可以對於未來整個情勢的演變做好準備。行政院也特別下鄉做一個產業的傾聽之旅，針對產業因為對等關稅所面臨的困境及需求的部分來做協助。部長，你有親自過去，第一站就到我們桃園，包括桃園、臺中、彰化跟高雄，部長你也聽到產業很多的需求，這些需求除了你們從六個層面給予協助、幫忙之外，很多產業所提出來的問題，部長，你認為這些問題有什麼解決的方案或是你還有加強哪些部分嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想在座談過程中，發現一些剛開始我們可能沒有想到的問題……"],["呂委員玉玲：很多個案嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：透過這樣的座談，我們發現有一些需要改正，譬如說很多業者關心我們會不會雨天收傘，這個問題是當初我們沒有想像到的，也謝謝大家的關心，我們馬上做出舊貸展延的措施，就是舊有的貸款，當你認為有需要的時候，企業要繼續經營下去，利息也可以繳，我們同意馬上展延六個月，可以繳息不還本，信保基金也配合這些展延的保證，這是第一件事情。再來就是，有的廠商反映保證的額度是不是能夠再加大一點，我們這方面都有調整。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你有認真聽，因為我有參加這個座談，所以產業提出來的不只是這些，也有關於電的問題，還有土地的問題等等，就是因為他們本來要投資，現在因為對等關稅的問題，可能會暫緩投資或設廠，這個部分我們也希望在橫向方面，不管是你們跟國發會或財政部那邊，也給他們一個比較適當、暢通的溝通管道，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，在桃園的部分，確實如委員所指教的，土地的問題，因為桃園可以做生產的土地比較少，現在在南部、嘉義以南大概有四個工業區，是經濟部所屬的產業園區，這裡面加起來大概好幾百公頃，因為大家現在都覺得土地太貴，像桃園的土地真的就是非常貴，不利於生產，所以我們幫助他們，現在土地只租不售，對於租金的部分，我們都可以考慮，在建廠的時候，考慮給它一些……"],["呂委員玉玲：不只是融資或者是租賃問題，給予優惠。"],["郭部長智輝：對，這部分我們都會根據業者的需求滾動式改善，也就是幫助業者能夠順利返臺，然後在臺灣……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，這個已經開了四場，後面還有幾場？還是各縣市會陸續依序辦理呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會各地來展開這些……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為你都去座談了四場，你知道業界很多聲音、很多需求，必須要給大家、給我們長官們知道，才能夠給他們一個溝通管道，來協助他們，這才是我們的本意，所以我們希望這方面就依序陸續再辦，後面還有幾場呢？"],["郭部長智輝：你說辦座談會是不是？"],["呂委員玉玲：對。"],["郭部長智輝：目前我收到的大概有三場。"],["呂委員玉玲：還要再辦三場。"],["郭部長智輝：包括新北、臺南等等加起來有三場。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。部長，會有這個對等關稅的問題，就是美國要解決逆差的問題，這個逆差的問題，我們賴總統也特別說要對美國擴大、增加採購，部長，你這邊的態度也說要針對最主要大宗的天然氣來做採購，我們看到我們對美國天然氣的採購，在我們整個進口量來講是占9.8%，因為我們向美國購買的話，要考慮到運輸成本的問題，所以我們才會只有9.8%，因為從美國運輸的話大概要20天左右，其他國家，像澳洲的話大概是10天，卡達的話大概是15天左右。現在我們要跟美國擴大天然氣的採購，部長有沒有想到成本問題？在3月20號的時候有提到美國的阿拉斯加，如果採購天然氣，運輸會縮減到10天，我們的成本當然會降低，但這還是未知數，還沒有採購，雖然要投資將近440億美元，但是哪些國家會投資？有順利嗎？就算順利也是要到2030年，這5年時間我們對美國採購天然氣的話，有可能就會從他們本土來採購，從本土運輸還是一樣需要這麼久的時間，運輸成本還是會提高，難道部長還要讓我們中油跟台電承受這麼嚴峻的成本虧損問題嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這就是成本的問題，採購多少量，量、價這些都有關係，剛才鄭委員也有問我這個部分，說為什麼我當初跟他講、跟別的委員講的幅度不太一樣，確實是這樣子，就是因為量、價的關係，當然我們未來的方向是朝一個比較高一點的目標，這就是看談判的結果是怎麼樣，所以我們也沒有辦法確定，但是以目前來講，不到10%的採購量，我們當然是衡量怎麼樣透過採購的力量可以讓取得的成本更低，這是我們的目標。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，10年2,000億的採購，剛剛有人問到清單問題，我覺得這個清單我們不要被動，不要它給我們什麼東西我們就買什麼，要我們臺灣有需要什麼才去買什麼，譬如說天然氣我們有需要，我們就去購買。除了主要的原料及天然氣以外，還有很多像是機械用具或是電機設備、精密儀器以及航空器等等，這些也是我們進口的大的品項，所以我們也可以將這些部分需求多少的量放入清單，我們主動出擊、主動提供，去溝通，這才是對我們談判雙方都有利的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我想談判都是彼此大家雙方來交換彼此的需求……"],["呂委員玉玲：不是單方面的。"],["郭部長智輝：都是雙方面的，彼此交換需求，然後去談出一個好的、良善的結果，所以我想委員所提示的這些部分也都是我們考慮的範圍。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這是要注意的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，這些都是我們考慮的範圍。"],["呂委員玉玲：還有就是美國對各國的對等關稅率，有其他國家會擔心洗產地，為什麼提到這個部分？因為菲律賓是18%，新加坡是10%，菲律賓被課徵的18%稅率遠低於臺灣的32%，我們政府若是依照原先的計畫要到菲律賓設置產業園區，會不會被美方認為你有特定要洗產地的嫌疑？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們目前大家在談的32%、18%，這些都是暫定的稅率，所以現在這些都已經被調到所謂的基本稅率10%，我想這90天以後才會明朗化，對我們來講，我們都在爭取臺灣業者都可以找到一個具有競爭力的關稅條件，我們在達成總統的「日不落國競爭條件」也是一樣，我們會幫助臺灣的業者找到具有競爭力的位置、區域來把他的市場擴大。我們剛剛講過了，剛才劉主委也講得非常清楚，全球市場不是只有美國，全球市場這麼大，我們的模式就是幫助臺灣的產業找到具有競爭力的方向、找到具有競爭力的產品，我們在臺灣幫助他、提升他的競爭力，這個是我們經濟部最主要的工作。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以在這邊也提醒部長，包括劉主委跟次長，針對於對等關稅，在整個清單裡面，我們不一定是天然氣，也可以有新的核能，新的核能採購也是一個擴大採購的方式，這也是可以做的。至於洗產地方面，我們也要多去關心、注意這個問題，不要被美國認為我們在洗產地，否則不利我們的談判，請經濟部要去注意、了解、掌握這所有的變化，才能夠讓我們的產業避開關稅的風險，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"],["賴委員瑞隆：(11時12分）謝謝召委，先請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：先請教一下，因為大家都關心美國的財長點名優先的五國：韓國、英國、澳洲、印度跟日本，在我們的數據上面，其實我們應該之前有先談過了，部長，現在你所了解狀況是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的狀況就是，4月11號我們已經跟美國做諮商了，主要的內容我們在這裡跟委員報告：主要的內容就談對等關稅；第二個非關稅貿易障礙以及出口管制等，已經談這一些多項的經貿議題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：已經有談了，其實也是依賴總統的5項原則跟他們談的，回應整個川普總統、美國政府，所以這5點的部分其實都已經跟美方做談判了？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以有初步來談了。但是為什麼財長這樣講？他這個點名是優先跟這五個國家先簽訂，他們朝這個目標前進嗎？為什麼沒有包含臺灣在裡面？"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經談了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以其實有談。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是有談，我們跟以色列有談，在我們之前他也先跟越南談，這個是有進度的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以就像賴總統前幾天講的，跟以色列、跟臺灣，我們是第一批在談的，我們一直在談。但是財長點名這5國也是他們現在優先要處理的目標。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，是這樣子的，像我個人的經驗來講，關於國際談判，我工作了大概快50年，國際談判我也談滿多的，我們第一個會去確認談判的命題是什麼，要談什麼東西先確認一下，不然的話，講一堆大家拋來拋去的，會去決定談的內容跟程序，這是第一個先界定的部分；第二個才會進入實質的討論，大家把資料拿出來實質的討論，彼此的利益再去談出來；第三個再做整體的conclusion。這是談判的一個過程，我相信我們這一次談的不脫離這種國際談判的格式，因為美國要跟這麼多的國家談判其實也不容易，對他來講，他一定要確定你要跟我談什麼、我跟你談什麼，這是過程，所以為什麼他一個禮拜只能談5個國家就是這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：70個都要跟他談，所以現在有的人會去解讀不包括臺灣，事實上臺灣已經在談了。"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣已經談過了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：OK，我們只是再次讓外界清楚，不要某些講法好像一副臺灣沒有在進行，事實上，剛剛部長提到臺灣4月11號已經在進行當中了。"],["郭部長智輝：4月11號已經談過了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：經濟部的同仁也有參與其中，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：這個談判小組我不是那麼清楚。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以有談了，有談就對了。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，比較不好意思，我不是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒關係，有些讓部長做一些保留，這個沒有關係。","再來，我請教電費的問題，因為我們現在凍漲，部長，現在凍漲之後，其實台電當時為了吸收油價上漲的部分吸收了大概6,000億，我們會再提出追加預算嗎？我到地方上聽到很多人都說，因為美國這些關稅問題，他們很擔憂接下來在7、8月的夏季電價，很多人甚至希望政府要來撥補、來支持，會再提出追加預算嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會綜合考量實際進行的狀況，夏季電價我們之前就已經在討論漲不漲，上一次的討論裡面就已經確定不漲價。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，先不漲。"],["郭部長智輝：是這樣子進行，下一波電價委員會討論是在9月底。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那會不會再提出來？經濟部考不考慮再提出追加預算來降低台電的壓力？"],["郭部長智輝：現在是這樣子，我上一次有呼籲過，我們考慮所有國家的CPI、相關的狀況、關稅的衝擊，所以我們在3月的時候就提出來不漲價，但是為了台電的經營、台電的財務狀況，我們真的希望當初所提出來的2,000億撥補大院能夠通過，讓我們可以拿到這2,000億撥補來改善我們台電的財務。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部長的意思應該是──還是要繼續支持、希望一樣能夠支持2,000億來撥補台電。至於什麼樣的形式經濟部會來研議，事實上，還是希望用2,000億撥補這樣的形式來協助台電。"],["郭部長智輝：這樣能夠給我們台電馬上有提綱挈領、立顯的改善效果。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望把所有的方式全部提出來了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為現在聽起來，在野黨很多也慢慢覺得應該不要讓產業受到影響，所以希望來支持台電，我也希望部長把這些方案再次提出來，好不好？讓台電不要承受這麼巨大的財務壓力。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下，現在我們關稅有880億的支持方案，裡面有700億是跟工業有關，這個應該是一個底標，因為隨著跟美國談判會有不同的一些狀況，但是政府支持這些基礎傳統產業、支持中小企業、支持受影響產業的這個態度沒有變，對不對？"]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謝謝主席核許我們交通部陳部長好 陳部長還有我們經濟部何次長何次長來財政部謝次長好還有我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的嚴副總代表委員好"},{"start":29.451,"end":52.436,"text":"好 謝謝四位 謝謝主席排今天的一個比較複合性的一個題目有這麼多的部會到達交通委員會首先是不是要請我們這個嚴副總代表因為要貿易談判我相信這個準備應該是長年在準備非常積極就請問一下我先問一下就是你覺得這一次就是川普"},{"start":54.217,"end":72.055,"text":"總統他的對等關稅的一個政策或者世界貿易的這樣的所謂的大戰有可能要引發你覺得對台灣來講這是台美單一的建議還是會是變成世界貿易的一個多方向的大戰你們現在的判斷是怎麼樣"},{"start":74.159,"end":100.625,"text":"因為我想川普政府現在所科徵的對等關稅是他的起手式我說就貿易的層面是起手式之一那這個起手式是針對超過180個國家來科徵的所以我想他應該不是他不是純粹一個台灣面對的問題而是全世界都正在處理那只是說每一個國家因為他面對的情況這個關稅的高低不同所以大家各自處理的方式就不同好"},{"start":102.284,"end":115.789,"text":"這個我覺得業界包括很多學者的看法大概跟你這樣蠻一致的因為這會觸發一個全世界的一個很多的一個變化因為現在不可預期90天之後會是發生什麼樣一個情況"},{"start":116.829,"end":132.855,"text":"整個世界貿易是如何的組合是產生了多邊還是大國效應還是區塊的能夠加緊密聯合我覺得因為時代有很多種變化但是大家應該可以確定這絕對不是單一台美的一些問題也就是說"},{"start":134.716,"end":149.163,"text":"你在談這件事的時候你要看一下看一下我在談好了譬如說剛剛講的這個非關稅貿易障礙美國現在只能進一年75輛的一個汽車那可是你說我們要改"},{"start":150.163,"end":169.444,"text":"沒有那麼簡單啊這是我們2002年參加WTO裡面選擇的我們聯合國歐洲的經濟委員會跟他們1958年的一個一個用他那邊的一個數字算出來的嘛那當然你也可以啊我跟你談然後我不理歐盟所以我覺得很多的關稅是一個問題和貿易障礙"},{"start":171.866,"end":196.767,"text":"非關稅貿易戰其實交通部還真的蠻多的真的蠻多的你們要好好去研究一下那請教一下我們財政部好不好財政部請問一下我們台灣前五大貿易順差國前五大貿易順差國這些貿易夥伴貿易夥伴大概有哪些不一定要排順序美國 日本歐盟 中國"},{"start":198.432,"end":218.685,"text":"歐盟沒有來這個部分因為這是你們的關務署的一個訊息那現在就是去年去年剛結帳去年現在看起來貿易順差排序的話第一名中國大陸跟香港第二名美國第三名新加坡第四名越南第五名馬來西亞"},{"start":220.166,"end":232.492,"text":"那這個部分我們是純粹用它的貿易順差的一個順序來排的那我們也看了一下光這個前五名前五名的一個貿易順差"},{"start":238.188,"end":266.06,"text":"他的比重到底多少也出口啦大家都知道我們出口多嘛人家進口少就感覺我們台灣的貿易順差感覺我們生意做得比較好那我們在出口排名前五名前五名就是順差前五名來看他的總金額這還沒有把日本加進來大概就已經將近七成到八成所以他比重是很強的也許我們後面還有五十個貿易夥伴五十個貿易夥伴但是金額是相對比較少的那我這樣講這個意思是什麼呢"},{"start":266.94,"end":294.231,"text":"我一看起來就知道這一次談判要非常重非常謹慎所以我看到行政院長也提出很多這些想法我希望談得很順利啦因為這東西知識體大對台灣的一個產業科技的產業甚至未來會不會經濟蕭條都非常有關聯但是我們希望剛剛我們副總代表談的是我相信很多的專家學員在想你們在談的時候要特別注意一件事情也就是說"},{"start":295.231,"end":322.336,"text":"美國這個非常重要它的一個出口額佔我們行政院公布的我們去年度總出口金額4750億美元的一個出口的總額大概佔23%當然重要 四分之一但是你們要回頭去想7乘5還有7乘5我任何一個貿易一個措施 一個互惠關係可能會什麼樣的影響我真的是建議你們要注意"},{"start":323.537,"end":324.942,"text":"那我想問一下次長"},{"start":326.243,"end":346.676,"text":"右邊川普經濟學首先我們要談判有一個基礎我們經常在地方做一些民間的處理那個基礎是很重要的譬如說車禍球場一個人開500萬然後你一上去是要從500萬開始談嗎但一般都會說抱歉100萬所以我們覺得現在給的基礎你認不認同美國32%第二個美國32%他簡單的算法就是就"},{"start":355.402,"end":371.218,"text":"美國來說他是逆差他就會吃虧了我貿易逆差基本上就是除以我的進口從台灣進口的總額然後再除以2大概是32%比例那你認不認同那如果你認同的話會有破窗效應"},{"start":372.443,"end":392.408,"text":"世界貿易會有破莊效應喔就哇台灣真的很棒是一個非常好的貿易夥伴我只要加加減減除除貿易順差國每一個都照這樣的去加減除除的話我只列前五大順差國這個部分來現在換你說第一個你認不認同這樣的一個算法這個數字"},{"start":393.684,"end":413.914,"text":"是跟委員報告這是川普政府他們計算對等關稅的這個方式其實我們在第一時間據我了解我們的外交單位跟我們的經貿談判辦公室已經跟美方傳達了一個不合理的一個方式是你覺得這個算數學啦不合理就是你們覺得OK啦"},{"start":416.785,"end":442.504,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想這個公式合不合理很多國家都有提出我們的不同質疑特別是它的公式的計算上就如同您剛才提到的它只有用逆差的數額跟出口到這個美國去的總金額來作為這個加減乘除的一個公式但是實際上它有加上一些變數包括譬如說台灣跟美國之間我們有一些進口價格的替代性或者是說它對於台灣的產品是不是一個剛性需求"},{"start":443.084,"end":466.599,"text":"這些每一個國家的係數就美國現在這個公式來說都是一樣的係數所以確實來說看起來有一些不合理的這是根本一個不合理的一個算法而且他算出來那個貿易順差逆差跟個別的關稅有些是根本沒有直接關聯的所以每個國家大部分都覺得一頭霧水那我覺得這個的部分絕對不是一個我們談判的基點"},{"start":467.819,"end":489.134,"text":"幾點我們自己要算出來好吧就算我們大概預估是什麼樣一個方向我真的要建議這個是非常非常重要像我們剛剛講說汽車的非關稅的貿易的這個障礙那這種真的還是蠻多的我要請部長回去尤其市長也在這裡你們真的要去盤點一下不是只有那個數字的問題"},{"start":490.115,"end":515.234,"text":"你們中間有太多了如果無限上綱的話就是我們幾年前抗爭的歐盟義大利的EVICO這個貨車你們規定五公噸以下只要一般的駕照就可以了但是加上這個車六公尺六公尺就不行你要去考貨車大貨車的一個駕照人家已經抗議了非常多次這是標準的如果就外國來講"},{"start":516.135,"end":533.804,"text":"是標準的非關稅的貿易障礙為什麼因為設計這個障礙我車就不用進口了所以我是覺得這個部分包括監理業務你車安的業務有很多的問題是需要去處理的最後經濟部長我最後"},{"start":536.84,"end":550.494,"text":"我覺得因為你們幾位最主要是談判的主力那當然國家的一個產業經濟在經濟部一個重責大任對於產業的訊息我看到你們也下槍去講那我想最後我做個結論"},{"start":552.376,"end":574.135,"text":"現在我們真的是希望在談判的時候不要產生那種破窗效應啊就說 喔 原來這樣的對台灣就可以喔 原來我這樣的台灣就會來我這邊投資我覺得你們要特別注意這件事情但是我是真的建議啦建議給你們現在 尤其談判代表現在看起來有四個籌碼"},{"start":575.416,"end":584.974,"text":"第一個公司部門對美國加大採購跟投資但是我要拜託一下所有談判的人都知道我跟我老婆做談判的時候也一定要"},{"start":586.17,"end":610.005,"text":"談好了才付錢你知道嗎你現在第一個談判頭碼你還沒談台積電一千萬他已經開了這叫先跑先跑通不算喔我在談判的過程大通也簽約了連電也都談好了我告訴你你政府如果出發到那裡的時候已經裝到別人口袋的時候不要作為談判頭碼我覺得你們要稍微控制一下"},{"start":610.825,"end":621.582,"text":"那至於說關稅要降低這看起來是第二個方向但如果是覺得你們到底是只對這個台美的關稅這樣那BNW會不會打電話來罵人換歐盟來抗議我們這要講一下"},{"start":625.968,"end":649.425,"text":"第三個外匯存體的投放運用那外界有很多的猜測請你們也要注意第四個我覺得跟交通部也非常有關係甚至農委會啊他現在非關稅的貿易障礙哪一些可以去調整哪一些是人家會問的我也希望你們事先去盤整希望台灣我們能夠在很安穩相對"},{"start":651.326,"end":655.589,"text":"相對好的情況來挺過這一次的川普經濟學謝謝大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":725,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時58分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳部長、經濟部何次長、財政部謝次長。"],["主席：陳部長、何次長、財政部謝次長。"],["魯委員明哲：還有行政院經貿談判辦公室的顏副總代表。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝4位，也謝謝主席今天排一個比較複合性的題目，有這麼多的部會到達交通委員會。首先請顏副總代表，因為要貿易談判，相信你應該是長年在準備，也非常積極，先請問一下，你覺得這一次川普總統的對等關稅政策，或者世界貿易大戰有可能要引發，你覺得對臺灣來講，這是臺美單一的爭議，還是會變成世界貿易多方向大戰，你們現在判斷是怎麼樣？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為我想川普政府現在所課徵的對等關稅就貿易的層面是起手式之一，而這起手式是針對超過180個國家來課徵的，應該不是純粹臺灣面對的問題，而是全世界都正在處理，只是每一個國家因為面對的情況及關稅的高低不同，所以大家各自處理的方式就不同。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我覺得業界包括很多學者的看法，大概都跟妳蠻一致的，這會觸發全世界很多的變化，因為現在不可預期90天之後會是發生什麼樣的情況？整個世界貿易是如何的組合？是產生了多邊？還是大國效應？還是區塊的能夠緊密聯合？我覺得因為時代有很多種變化，但是大家應該可以確定這絕對不是單一臺美的問題。也就是你在談這件事的時候，你要看一下，我這談好了，譬如剛剛提到的非關稅貿易障礙，美國現在一年只能進75輛汽車，可是你說我們要改也沒有那麼簡單啊！這是我們2002年參加WTO選擇的，聯合國歐洲經濟委員會1958年用他們的數字計算出來的，當然你也可以跟美國談，然後不理歐盟，所以我覺得很多的關稅是一個問題，非關稅貿易障礙其實交通部還真的滿多的，你們要好好去研究一下。","請教財政部，臺灣前五大貿易順差國，這些貿易夥伴大概有哪些？不一定要排順序。"],["謝次長鈴媛：美國、日本、歐盟及中國。"],["魯委員明哲：好，沒有歐盟。這是你們關務署的資訊，去年看起來貿易順差的排序是，第一名中國大陸跟香港、第二名美國、第三名新加坡、第四名越南、第五名馬來西亞，這純粹是用貿易順差排序的，光這前五名貿易順差的比重到底多少？大家都知道我們出口多，人家進口少，就感覺臺灣的貿易順差生意做得比較好，就以順差前五名出口額來看，這總金額還沒有把日本加進來大概就已經將近七成到八成，所以它比重是很強的，也許我們後面還有50個貿易夥伴，但是金額相對是比較少的，我的意思是什麼呢？我們一看就知道這次談判要非常謹慎。","看到行政院長提出很多想法，我希望談得很順利，因為這茲事體大，對臺灣的科技產業，甚至未來會不會經濟蕭條都非常有關聯。我們希望剛剛副總代表談的，相信很多專家學者在想，你們在談的時候要特別注意一件事情，行政院去年度所公布總出口金額4,750億美元，其中美國大概就占23%約四分之一，當然非常重要，但是你們要回頭想還有75%，任何一個貿易、一個措施、一個互惠關係，可能會什麼樣的影響？我建議你們要注意。","請問次長，有關川普經濟學，首先我們要談判有個基礎。我們經常在地方做一些民間的處理，談判的基礎是很重要，比如車禍求償有人開價500萬，然後你就要從500萬開始談嗎？但一般人都會說：抱歉！100萬。所以現在妳認不認同美國給的基礎32%？這簡單的算法，就美國來說是逆差，覺得吃虧。貿易逆差基本上是除以從臺灣的進口總額，再除以2，比例大概是32%，妳認不認同？如果認同的話世界貿易會有破窗效應，哇！臺灣真的很棒，是一個非常好的貿易夥伴，我只要加加、減減、除除，我們的貿易順差國，每一個都照這樣加減乘除的話，只要列這前五大順差國。現在換你說，第一個，妳認不認同這數字的算法？"],["謝次長鈴媛：跟委員報告，這是川普政府計算對等關稅的方式，據我了解，其實在第一時間我們的外交單位跟經貿談判辦公室就已經跟美方傳達了不合理的方式。"],["魯委員明哲：副總代表，妳覺得這不合理算式OK嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，我想這個公式合不合理，很多國家都有提出不同質疑，特別是它的公式計算上，就如同您剛才提到的，就只有用逆差的數額跟出口到美國的總金額來作為加減乘除的公式。實際上，它有加上一些變數，譬如包括臺灣跟美國之間有一些進口價格的替代性，或者是對於臺灣的產品是不是一個剛性需求，就美國現在這個公式來說，每一個國家的係數都是一樣的，所以確實看起來有一些不合理的地方。"],["魯委員明哲：這根本是一個不合理的算法，而且算出來貿易順差、逆差，跟個別的關稅有些根本沒有直接關聯，所以每一個國家大部分都覺得一頭霧水，我覺得這個部分絕對不是我們談判的基點，我們自己要算出來，大概預估是什麼樣的方向，我要建議這是非常、非常重要，像剛剛提到汽車的非關稅貿易障礙還是蠻多的。部長回去之後，尤其司長也在這裡，請你們真的要去盤點一下，不是只有數字的問題，你們中間有太多了，如果無限上綱的話，就是我們幾年前抗爭歐洲、義大利IVECO」的貨車，你們規定在5公噸以下，只要一般駕照就可以駕駛，但是加上這個車6公尺就不行，就要去考大貨車的駕照，人家已經抗議了非常多次，如果就外國來講，是標準的非關稅貿易障礙，為什麼？因為設立這個障礙，車就不用進口了，我覺得包括監理業務、車安的業務，有很多的問題是需要處理的。","最後請教經濟部次長，因為你們幾位是最主要的談判主力，國家的產業經濟是經濟部的重責大任，對於產業的訊息，我看到你們也下鄉宣講。最後做個結論，現在真的希望在談判的時候，不要產生破窗效應，就是喔！原來這樣對臺灣就可以喔！原來我這樣的臺灣就會來我這邊投資。我覺得你們要特別注意這件事情。","我建議尤其談判代表，現在看起來有四個籌碼，第一個，公私部門對美國加大採購跟投資，我要拜託一下，所有談判的人都知道，像我跟我老婆做談判的時候，一定要談好了才付錢，你知道嗎？現在第一個談判籌碼都還沒談，結果台積電已經宣布投資1,000億，這叫先跑，先跑通通不算喔！我們還在談判的過程，大同也簽約了，聯電也都談好了，我告訴你政府如果出發到那裡，已經裝到別人口袋的時候，不要作為談判籌碼，你們要稍微控制一下；第二個，要降低關稅，如果只對臺美的關稅調降，BMW會不會打電話來罵人，換歐盟來抗議我們？這要思考一下；第三個，外匯存底的投放運用，外界有很多猜測，請你們也要注意：第四個，我覺得跟交通部也非常有關係，甚至農委會，現在非關稅貿易障礙，哪些可以去調整？哪些是人家會問的？你們事先去盤整，希望臺灣能夠很安穩及相對好的情況，來挺過這一次的川普經濟學，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。","特別跟大家報告，在陳素月委員質詢完畢後，我們就處理臨時提案。","接下來請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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感謝主席本期邀請我們交通部陳部長好 陳部長委員好部長好部長我們今天在這裡討論美國關稅這次的對台灣的一個影響是其中大家前幾天討論很多的是汽車業但汽車業大家討論的就是台灣的關稅"},{"start":31.727,"end":57.486,"text":"17.5%還有30%的貨物稅但是我要請教部長美國這一次他針對他的四十幾個主要貿易國家他每一個國家他都寫一份報告我查了這四十幾個國家他點名汽車就是對美國汽車不公平的主要國家只有台灣其他都是一些奇奇怪怪像非洲一些國家"},{"start":58.752,"end":66.057,"text":"可是美國點名台灣對美國的汽車有貿易障礙他沒有講關稅也沒有講什麼貨物稅當然關稅我們太高 貨物稅我們太高這個我們現在可以跟美國來談"},{"start":77.045,"end":105.336,"text":"那現在看起來大概主管部會大家也就美國這個部分在談但美國對於台灣美國車子到台灣來它最大的不滿它是技術性的障礙不是關稅非關稅貿易障礙對可是我看這幾天在討論汽車業汽車的影響都是講財政部 經濟部我從來沒看交通部交通部都躲起來"},{"start":106.789,"end":119.855,"text":"今天造成汽車業被美國點名最主要的就是交通部政策造成的美方點名的是technical barriers to trade技術性的貿易障礙你知道我們的障礙是什麼嗎"},{"start":121.079,"end":140.294,"text":"報告委員其實汽車的部分有三項一項當然是交通部的一些法規上面是有一些限制沒有錯安全檢驗的部分標準檢驗的部分那第二項其實是跟能源是有相關的也就是我們能源署對汽車油耗也是有限制我講的是美國點名我們的障礙是什麼東西"},{"start":141.295,"end":162.941,"text":"我看起來你好像不懂這個部分耶你說的技術障礙我再跟你講技術障礙沒有說完美國這次點名技術障礙可能很多種也不止三種那美國點名我們是什麼地方安全法規標準的部分不是美國點名的是說我們對美國車子啊到台灣來我們一個車型一年配額限制75輛"},{"start":167.506,"end":187.516,"text":"那你知不知道 之前我們對美國車子到台灣來我們一個車型 原本一年限制多少輛很像最早期是從兩千輛到七十五輛慢慢慢慢降 降到現在七十五一種車型所以你要針對美國不滿的地方來 你今天的報告裡面寫的 你不寫也不寫這裡面寫的 航運 貨運 觀光"},{"start":192.301,"end":198.034,"text":"你針對這幾天討論最多的就是汽車包委員這個部分我們其實跟那你的報告應該告訴我們"},{"start":200.093,"end":226.773,"text":"那針對這個部分你要怎麼處理因為這個確實有一點不公平啦那美國進口的二手車有沒有配合沒有配合沒有配合喔這變得很奇怪的喔所以美國的二手車到台灣來啊就所謂的掛過 在美國掛過牌的啦就是我們台灣你說的外匯車啦李秋車啦一年哇 這個好幾萬台啊這個蠻多的很多台喔對"},{"start":227.935,"end":246.953,"text":"所以台灣上路的美規中古車啊各位看啦 這個其實看得出來啦我們外行 我為了這個才去研究因為世界上有兩大系統一個是歐盟的規則一個是美國聯邦經濟安全標準那台灣加入WTO的時候我們採用的是歐盟標準"},{"start":247.93,"end":273.038,"text":"因為世界主要汽車大國都在歐洲啦所以如果從歐洲進口車沒有這個問題沒有配合啦而且就是只要歐盟審核通過的車子就可以到台灣來但美國車子我們就特別定下一個障礙一個車型一年只能75台原本是一年2000台啊那現在變成到75台我不知道車安中心為什麼這麼定啊這誰定的啊"},{"start":276.518,"end":301.639,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員所提到確實就是說這個現行這個車輛安全法規的部分的話大家都是調和聯合國一位一席法規進來那原則上就是說國際上各個車廠要銷售到各地的這個車輛的話基本上就是要符合當地國的這個法規那當時這個純美規車輛的部分基本上就是說純美規你為什麼先回答我的問題"},{"start":304.681,"end":330.508,"text":"從2000台到75台那為什麼美國二手車你就沒有限配當時對於純美規的這個車輛基本上其實我們是相較於日本或是這個韓國是特別開了一條路就是說純美規的車輛還可以到這一個國內來那剛剛委員所提到那個外匯車中古車的部分的話因為他是屬於這個使用過的車輛他的法規檢測項目比較少所以"},{"start":330.868,"end":342.968,"text":"如果玫瑰車你講的是我們特別開個縫那為什麼二手車都可以就沒有限制然後你新車就給他限制我現在不是你在這邊跟我講現在是美方把這樣子認為是一個貿易障礙"},{"start":346.868,"end":374.529,"text":"他特別點名台灣你怎麼給我做這樣的限制報告委員這個部分我們已經跟行政院那邊也都有做溝通那未來該怎麼樣去跟美國談判其實我們也都已經有版本我跟你說啦部長我跟你講他們這個一個你們車安中心還有陸中獅這邊你們這個非常衙門化你這官僚你也回答不出來啊你兩兄弟現在槓七十五台所以各位有沒有注意到啊其實啊"},{"start":376.348,"end":403.386,"text":"台灣現在看不到純美國車的車子啦像卡迪拉克啦雪佛朗這些你大概看不到啦那福特為什麼看得到那福特車子為什麼看不到福特車子都是歐規的啦他們是做歐規的沒錯他們都用歐規的車包含特斯拉雖然在美國製造但是他是用歐規的車他們都用歐規的車因為我們台灣人汗水只用車營70幾台嘛"},{"start":406.397,"end":419.325,"text":"那現在造成啊我記得好像Poeta有一個車型有一個車啦他就用一個車型他其實同一台車啦他用不同的規格車子就申請為四五種車型用這樣來鑽漏洞那你也是準啊"},{"start":424.085,"end":451.017,"text":"你賣準跟委員報告他那個沒有專注因為我們是同意車同意這個規格車輛行駛我跟你講這個如果不是美國把它點出來說你台灣設一個貿易障礙我也不知道我也不知道我們有這麼多人我現在發現啦美方指責我們這個貿易障礙這有得力啊你憑什麼人就市長來決定啦對不對但其實日韓各國也都是那我跟你講喔你這樣的話對於"},{"start":454.27,"end":470.014,"text":"你不要被旁邊人給影響美國沒有跟日本車 韓國車美國車是銷到日本 韓國美國沒有點出貿易障礙他只有特別點台灣你不要被旁邊的幕僚給你唬爛去還有 你要跟我們寫關稅對台灣的交通部對關稅的因應還有影響台灣有個產業會影響很大"},{"start":478.208,"end":497.464,"text":"台灣沒有車子銷美國啦 幾乎沒有但台灣的汽車零組件 銷美國量很大啦台灣一年有1000多億的汽車零組件這是台灣非常重要的衛銷產業啦台灣非常強啦包括燈啦 輪框啦 輪壺 一大堆啦你現在如果美國用這樣的關稅齁那這個汽車零組件我們賺的"},{"start":499.728,"end":522.453,"text":"你裡面連寫也沒寫到報告員這是在經濟部的報告裡面那跟你交通部沒關係嗎對不對零組件的產業不是我的產業這些也是我們交通部車輛的零組件嘛照你寫各位可以看一下交通部寫的這個報告跟美國關稅跟交通部一樣應用也沒有你寫起來是毫無影響啊那我再告訴你你躲了好幾天啊"},{"start":526.052,"end":554.774,"text":"去美方點名我們的汽車貿易障礙要出來回答這個問題的是交通部啦財政部講的是關稅 那沒有錯我去談經濟部有去談你的關稅或是稅那你交通部要出來回答這個問題嘛你告訴我台灣是很少見的來 你去查一下美國對這幾十個主要貿易國家有提到汽車台灣大概是唯一啦"},{"start":555.816,"end":572.174,"text":"其他國家我沒有看到你說日本 韓國沒有啦美方沒有認為他美國撤資到日本 韓國有什麼障礙只有點名我們台灣點名就是這個問題這個其實不合理啦那如果沒有美國來點名的話其實沒人知道他們也是照幹啦"},{"start":572.955,"end":580.669,"text":"你旁邊那些他們什麼相關單位報告委員第一時間我們已經跟行政院那邊都有溝通我知道因為美國都跟你講了他還沒講我們就再處理了好謝謝主席啦謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時38分）感謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。部長，我們今天在這裡討論美國關稅對臺灣的影響，其中大家前幾天討論很多的是汽車業，大家討論的是臺灣汽車的關稅17.5%還有30%的貨物稅，但是我要請教部長，美國這一次針對四十幾個主要貿易國家，每一個國家他們都寫一份報告，我查了這四十幾個國家，他們點名汽車，就是對美國汽車不公平的主要國家只有臺灣，其他都是一些奇奇怪怪的，像一些非洲國家，可是美國點名臺灣對美國的汽車有貿易障礙，他們沒有講關稅，也沒有講什麼貨物稅，當然關稅我們太高、貨物稅我們太高，這個我們現在可以跟美國來談，現在看起來，大概主管部會也就美國這個部分在談，美國對於臺灣，美國車子到臺灣來，最大的不滿是技術性的障礙，不是關稅。"],["陳部長世凱：非關稅貿易障礙。"],["林委員俊憲：對，可是我看這幾天在討論汽車業及汽車的影響，都是講財政部、經濟部，我從來沒看到交通部，交通部都躲起來，今天造成汽車業被美國點名，最主要的就是交通部的政策造成的，美方點名的是Technical Barriers to Trade（技術性貿易障礙），你知道我們的障礙是什麼嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實汽車的部分有3項，第一項當然是交通部的一些法規上面有些限制，沒有錯！安全檢驗、標準檢驗的部分。第二項其實跟能源是有相關的，也就是能源署對於汽車油耗也是有限制……"],["林委員俊憲：我講的是美國點名我們的障礙是什麼東西，我看起來你好像不懂這個部分，你沒有……"],["陳部長世凱：不會啊！你說的技術障礙，我在跟你講技術障礙，沒有錯啊！"],["林委員俊憲：不是，美國這次點名，技術障礙可能很多種，也不只3種。"],["陳部長世凱：對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：美國點名我們的是什麼地方？"],["陳部長世凱：安全法規標準的部分。"],["林委員俊憲：不是，美國點名的是我們對美國車子到臺灣來，一個車型一年……"],["陳部長世凱：你說的是配額。"],["林委員俊憲：配額限制75輛。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：那你知不知道是之前我們對美國車子到臺灣來，一個車型原本一年限制多少輛？"],["陳部長世凱：很像最早期是從2,000……"],["林委員俊憲：2,000輛到75輛。"],["陳部長世凱：慢慢慢慢降，降到現在一種車型75輛。"],["林委員俊憲：所以你要針對美國不滿的地方，你今天的報告連寫也沒寫到，這裡面寫的航運、貨運、觀光，你要針對這幾天討論最多的汽車。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們其實跟……"],["林委員俊憲：你的報告應該要告訴我們，針對這個部分要怎麼處理？因為這個確實有一點不公平，美國進口的二手車有沒有配額？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有配額，這變得很奇怪，所以美國的二手車到臺灣來所謂在美國掛過牌的，就是我們臺灣說的外匯車、二手車啦！一年好幾萬臺。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個蠻多的。"],["林委員俊憲：很多臺哦！所以臺灣上路的美規中古車，各位看，這個其實看得出來，但是我們外行，我為了這個才去研究，因為世界上有兩大系統，一個是歐盟的規則，一個是美國聯邦汽車安全標準。臺灣加入WTO的時候，我們採用的是歐盟標準，因為世界主要汽車大國都在歐洲，所以如果歐洲進口車沒有這個問題，沒有配額，而且只要歐盟審核通過的車子就可以到臺灣來，但是美國車子我們就特別定下一個障礙，一個車型一年只能75臺，原本是一年2,000臺，現在變成75臺，我不知道車安中心為什麼這麼定？這是誰定的？75臺是怎麼定的？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，剛剛委員所提到的就是現行車輛安全法規的部分，大家都是調和聯合國UNECE法規進來。"],["林委員俊憲：對。"],["林司長福山：原則上，國際上各個車廠要銷售到各地的車輛就是要符合當地國的法規，當時純美規車輛的部分基本上就是，純美規……"],["林委員俊憲：你為什麼限定？回答我的問題，從2,000臺到75臺，為什麼美國二手車就沒有限配額？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，當時對於純美規的車輛，其實我們相較於日本或者是韓國，是特別開了一條路，就是純美規的車輛還是可以到國內來，剛剛委員所提到外匯車、中古車的部分，因為它是屬於使用過的車輛，它的法規檢測項目比較少，所以……"],["林委員俊憲：如果美規車你講的是我們特別開個縫，為什麼二手車可以沒有限制，然後新車就限制？現在不是你在這邊跟我講，現在是美方認為這樣是一個貿易障礙，他們特別點名臺灣為什麼做這樣的限制。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們已經跟行政院也都有做溝通，未來該怎麼樣跟美國談判，其實我們也都已經有版本，這個都沒有問題。"],["林委員俊憲：我跟你說，部長，因為你們車安中心還有路政司，你們非常衙門化，這些官僚也回答不出來，2,000輛為什麼要降到75輛？所以各位有沒有注意到其實臺灣現在看不到純美國車的車子，像凱迪拉克、雪佛蘭這些大概看不到啦！那福特為什麼看得到？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，雖然有開75輛，但是沒有人需要啦！"],["林委員俊憲：福特的車子為什麼看得到？福特車子都是歐規的。"],["陳部長世凱：他們是做歐規的，沒錯！"],["林委員俊憲：都用歐規的車進來。"],["陳部長世凱：包含特斯拉雖然在美國製造，但它是用歐規。"],["林委員俊憲：他們都用歐規的車，因為臺灣限制一種車型七十幾臺嘛！現在造成我記得好像Toyota有一個車就用一個車型……其實是同一臺車用不同規格的車子申請為四、五種車型，用這樣來鑽漏洞。"],["陳部長世凱：委員說的是廂型車啦！"],["林委員俊憲：那你也是准啊！你們也准！"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，那個沒有鑽漏洞，因為我們是同意這個規格的車輛型式，因為他們的車輛型式都不同……"],["林委員俊憲：我跟你講，如果不是美國把它點出來說臺灣設一個貿易障礙，我也不知道我們有這個限制，我現在發現美方指責我們這個貿易障礙，這是有道理啊！你憑什麼這樣？就由市場來決定啦！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：但其實日、韓各國也都是這樣做。"],["林委員俊憲：我跟你講，你不要被旁邊的人影響，美國車子銷到日本、韓國，美國沒有點出貿易障礙，他只有特別點臺灣，你不要被旁邊的幕僚「唬爛」了，你要寫出交通部對關稅的因應還有影響，臺灣有一個產業會影響很大，臺灣沒有車子銷美國，幾乎沒有，但臺灣的汽車零組件銷往美國的量很大，臺灣一年有一千多億的汽車零組件，這是臺灣非常重要的外銷產業，臺灣非常強，包括燈、輪框、輪弧等一大堆，現在如果美國用這樣的關稅，汽車零組件穩慘的，你裡面連寫也沒寫到。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是在經濟部的報告裡面。"],["林委員俊憲：跟交通部沒有關係嗎？對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：零組件的產業不是我們交通部這邊。"],["林委員俊憲：這些也是你們交通部車輛的零組件嘛！照你寫的，各位可以看一下交通部寫的報告，美國關稅跟交通部一點影響也沒有，你們寫起來是毫無影響，我再在告訴你……"],["陳部長世凱：那個在經濟部的報告裡面有提到。"],["林委員俊憲：你躲了好幾天，美方點名我們的汽車貿易障礙，要出來回答這個問題的是交通部。財政部講的是關稅，沒有錯，可以去談。經濟部也去談你的關稅、貨物稅。那你交通部要出來回答這個問題嘛！你們有講到嗎？臺灣是很少見的，你去查一下美國對這幾十個主要貿易國家有提到汽車，臺灣大概是唯一啦！其他國家我沒有看到，你說日本、韓國，沒有，美方沒有認為美國車子到日本、韓國有什麼障礙，只有點名我們臺灣，就點名這個問題，這個其實不合理啦！如果沒有美國點名的話，其實沒人知道，他們也是照幹，你旁邊那些是什麼相關單位？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，第一時間我們已經跟行政院那邊都有溝通看怎麼……"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，因為美國都跟你講了，你怎麼可以不溝通？"],["陳部長世凱：他還沒講，我們就在處理了。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席：各位請就座。","接下來請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","葉元之","王美惠","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","陳冠廷","游顥","林宜瑾","邱志偉"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長、經濟部次長、\n外交部次長、財政部次長及行政院經貿談判辦公室就「美國課徵對等關稅對我國交通公私部門之\n衝擊與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00012"}}},{"id":"160213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f9d2e74df98279df5598280f33fae43cf316f6363e53358eebda33721556222a771403a2bdfbe5105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:27:28 - 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部長剛才本席在主持會議的時候當然因為我常主張小問題看出以後就沒有大問題所以我特別稱讚你們這個報告書裡面基本上照抄機率蠻低的所以值得肯定當然我們就希望有關單位"},{"start":57.839,"end":83.929,"text":"照抄的比例要低一點項目可以但是內容不可以因為每人做的工作完全不一樣所以這點要跟你肯定一下那另外一個啦我們說實在除了我們交通業務因為我們有常有機會在交通委員會我們做充分溝通對於整個業務部分那當然還是要提醒一下該解凍的"},{"start":85.389,"end":103.567,"text":"盡快趕快送來這是我的呼籲沒有一個召委一直呼籲你趕快來解凍的啦但是你們有什麼難處是另外一回事但是我必須要去強調解凍非常重要因為我們交通委員會在審查預算的時候"},{"start":104.648,"end":117.303,"text":"基本上對交通部所有的建設包括觀光署包括公路等等這些建設我們很少刪的所以這個部分你不要把它扯到業務會跟特資會的問題扯到這裡來台灣的建設絕對不能分黨派"},{"start":124.071,"end":143.872,"text":"所以這個我要特別提醒我們這個部長這個部分可能要儘快啦台灣的建設也不要等啦不管國際的情勢如何艱難我想台灣還是要往前走這是我蠻提醒的那現在我就要來談第一個部分這個"},{"start":147.333,"end":172.754,"text":"高關稅到底我們交通部雖然不是主管機關但是最起碼的話也是會衝擊啊你說我們三大航空公司我們海運啊海輪啊這等等東西也是有關我要了解一下剛剛我們這個洪孟愷在問你們都還在規劃我相信包括觀光包括整個我們交通運輸"},{"start":173.815,"end":201.836,"text":"就很簡單啊我們汽車進口等等這些像我們電動搭巴士等等這些一定會去衝擊那我請問部長你們現在在整個這些損傷的這些評估到底有沒有跟業者了解他們到底現在需求以及未來未以籌謀的等等面對高關稅這個部分部長"},{"start":203.777,"end":221.067,"text":"有沒有召集他們來了解真正的問題有沒有報告委員第一波影響會比較大大概是海空運啦那海空運的部分我們隨時跟業者保持密切的聯繫並且針對他們的定位率也好或者是定倉率也好我們隨時都在掌握那另外一方面針對這個"},{"start":222.729,"end":238.227,"text":"業者例如說是工業的業者他們出口或許有需要訂倉那有沒有這個急需的這個調查的部分我們也隨時在做所以我們也有這個航港局也有做這個調查表到目前為止我們航港局並沒有收到業者的這個需求"},{"start":239.128,"end":258.823,"text":"所以這個部分海空運的部分我們密切在觀察也密切在關注如果隨時有變化需要請我們的國籍的航空公司也好或者是船運公司該怎麼配合我們都會來配合好那這個部分我們隨時在掌握好部長我還是要建議啦因為交通運輸業確確實實也在你主管屬下啦"},{"start":259.463,"end":276.373,"text":"所以我在認為各行各業一定會有衝擊但是在交通部分你特別還是要去關心一下包括航空公司包括海運包括等等那另外一個我不曉得因為財政部的次長你們在整個報關業務如何去簡化"},{"start":279.835,"end":306.57,"text":"也就是通關的業務部分我不曉得部長有沒有跟財政部啊這裡做一個便民的溝通這很重要耶這很重要目前其實通關狀況是沒有篩報的狀況那其實如果在通關線上有發生篩報的情形比如說轉運貨物或進出口貨物量激增的話其實我們第一線同仁都會激動官務長都會激動調派人員來處理喔"},{"start":309.432,"end":323.444,"text":"那這個部分我們跟交通部在通商口岸的部分都會維持密切的合作來保障通關的順暢所以我說實在的啦越艱難的時代越要便民所以我問題要問這個議題就很簡單雖然這個我們政府做得到的我們說實在我們就盡量要去方便"},{"start":333.613,"end":340.208,"text":"最後啊 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農民是很少的"},{"start":504.033,"end":526.499,"text":"你有沒有考慮到這個應該要如何去爭取到農民最最高的一個最小的損失最高的這個機會好謝謝那個委員我想對我們農民來說我們一定是尊重我們的農業主管機關對於跟我們農產的這相關的評論哎呀農業部沒有用啦"},{"start":528.007,"end":546.089,"text":"是沒有機會來罵他啦這真的不是站在農民他是在當官嘛農業部本來就是這樣嘛但是你們現在在談判結果會影響他們的執政也是影響他們的決策所以我要聽聽你在這個部分你有什麼看法"},{"start":547.608,"end":575.384,"text":"我想我們所理解到的如果農產品進一步的開放的話可能會包括或許因為如果科珍對等關稅的話有可能美國對於農產的這個需求或許它整體性的需求會降低因為我們要看現在台灣出口到美國去的可能是像蝴蝶蘭這一類的產品它未必是一個民生必須現在比較嚴重的是稻米的部分是一定崩盤"},{"start":576.565,"end":604.255,"text":"一定崩盤所以當然啦因為農業是非常管的那我也希望我們原代表這裡把這個意見帶回去不要只有談企業有關這當然很重要但是農民零關稅這是我們台灣利農以來我們非常重要也是非常衝擊的一個部分請"},{"start":605.695,"end":628.942,"text":"你們在談判小組要納入這些危機的處理跟農民的利益這個要特別去考慮好不好好一定納入這個要拜託好不好那最後我還是要拜託包括財政部包括我們部長這個部分的各方面的交通有關的這些可能要納入這些提供資訊給他們談判小組好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（10時27分）主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["林委員國成：還有財政部次長。"],["主席：請財政部次長。"],["林委員國成：還有行政院辦公室顏慧欣副代表。"],["主席：請顏副代表。"],["陳部長世凱：召委好。"],["林委員國成：部長，剛才本席在主持會議的時候，當然因為我常主張小問題看出以後就沒有大問題！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員國成：我特別稱讚你們的報告書裡面基本上照抄機率滿低的，所以值得肯定！當然，我們都希望有關單位照抄比例要低一點，項目可以，但是內容不可以，因為每年做的工作完全不一樣，所以這一點要肯定你一下。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：另外一個，我們說實在的，除了交通業務，因為我們常有機會在交通委員會做充分溝通，對於整個業務，當然還是要提醒一下，該解凍的儘快、趕快送來，這是我的呼籲。沒有一個召委一直呼籲你趕快來解凍的啦！你們有什麼難處是另外一回事，但是我必須要強調，解凍非常重要，因為我們交通委員會在審查預算的時候，基本上對交通部所有建設，包括觀光署，包括公路等等，這些建設我們很少刪的，這個部分不要把它扯到業務費跟特支費的問題，不要扯到這裡來！臺灣的建設絕對不能分黨派，所以我要特別提醒部長，這個部分可能要儘快，臺灣的建設不要等，不管國際情勢如何艱難，我想臺灣還是要往前走，這是我們期許的。","現在我就要來談第一個部分，對於高關稅，交通部雖然不是主管機關，但是最起碼也是會衝擊啊！你說我們三大航空公司、海運、海輪等等也是有關，我要了解一下，剛剛我們洪孟楷在問，你們都還在規劃，我相信包括觀光及整個交通運輸，就很簡單啊！我們汽車進口這些，像我們電動大巴士等等，這些一定會去衝擊，我請問部長，你們現在對於這些損傷的評估到底有沒有了解業者現在的需求？以及未來未雨綢繆的面對高關稅這個部分，部長，有沒有召集他們來了解真正的問題，有沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，第一波影響比較大的大概是海空運，對於海空運，我們隨時跟業者保持密切的聯繫，並且針對他們的訂位率也好，或者是訂艙率，我們隨時都在掌握。另外一方面，針對業者，例如工業的業者，他們出口或許有需要訂艙，有沒有急需調查的部分，我們也隨時在做，所以我們航港局也有做調查表，到目前為止，我們航港局並沒有收到業者的需求，所以海空運的部分我們密切在觀察，也密切在關注，如果隨時有變化，需要請我們的國籍航空公司或者是船運公司，該怎麼配合我們都會來配合，這個部分我們隨時在掌握。"],["林委員國成：好，部長，我還是要建議，因為交通運輸業確確實實也在你主管之下，所以我認為各行各業一定會有衝擊，但是在交通部分，你特別還是要去關心一下，包括航空公司、包括海運等等。","另外，財政部的次長，你們整個報關業務如何去簡化，也就是通關的業務部分，我不曉得部長有沒有跟財政部這裡做一個便民的溝通？這很重要！"],["謝次長鈴媛：是，目前其實通關狀況是沒有塞爆的，如果在通關線上有發生塞爆的情形，比如說轉運貨物或進口貨物量激增的話，我們第一線同仁都會機動，關務長都會機動調派人員來處理，這個部分我們跟交通部在通商口岸都會維持密切的合作，來保障通關的順暢。"],["林委員國成：對，我說實在的，越艱難的時代越要便民，所以我要問這個很簡單的議題，我們政府做得到的，說實在的，就儘量要去方便。","最後，顏慧欣副代表，我要請教你一個問題，我們承認現在的情況來看，大國是非常任性的，但是小國也是認命，所以你們現在在對岸談判的時候，說實在的，有時候我要建議，談判當然有機密跟它的手法，可是我看到我們現在在整個經貿談判小組當中，你們要未雨綢繆，第一個產生什麼、第二個產生什麼，要有ABC的替代方案，可是我看我們只有一招，零關稅談起，當然不是說不對，但是零關稅談起，顏副代表，在這裡我特別要請教一下，我們的農業、我們的漁業，我們的農民零關稅會很慘的，這個你們一定知道，今天當然不是跟農業有關，可是最起碼這也是談判籌碼之一，不是說一個零關稅，有一個議題跟美國來談，我告訴你，你是要前進兩步退一步，可是美國是只有前進不會後退，但是談判技巧的過程當中，你們零關稅的情況之下，有沒有考慮到農民，尤其是稻穀崩盤的危機？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，我想委員也非常清楚跟美國談判絕對是一個壓力不小的對象。"],["林委員國成：所以我講大國是任性、小國是認命，所以這些東西我們也知道你們的難處，可是我們該爭取的還是要爭取，不是嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：當然，絕對是，基本上就像我們剛開始就預先模擬，我們會模擬美國可能會課關稅10%到20%，或者是20%到30%還是30%，我們實際上有預估非常多的方案，就像我們的準備工作一樣，我們談判也是這樣子。"],["林委員國成：好，顏代表，你對農產品，尤其我們臺灣的農民，請問一下你們有什麼補救跟因應之道，稻米一進來，我們的稻米一定崩盤，我看到我們880億的補助當中，在這個部分，農民是很少的，你有沒有考慮到應該要如何去爭取到農民最小的損失、最高的機會？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，我想對我們農民來說，我們一定是尊重我們的農業主管機關對於農產的相關評估。"],["林委員國成：農業部沒有用啦，是沒有機會來罵他啦！真的不是站在農民，他是在當官嘛！農業部本來就是這樣嘛！但是你們現在在談判，結果會影響他們的執政，也是影響他們的決策，所以我要聽聽你在這個部分，你有什麼看法？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想我們所理解到的，如果農產品進一步開放的話，因為如果課徵對等關稅的話，有可能美國對於農產的需求，或許它整體性的需求會降低，因為我們現在臺灣出口到美國去的，可能是像蝴蝶蘭這一類的產品，它未必是一個民生必需品。"],["林委員國成：現在比較嚴重的是稻米的部分，是一定崩盤，因為農業是非常廣的，我也希望我們顏代表把這個意見帶回去，不要只有談與企業有關，這當然很重要，但是對於農民零關稅，這是臺灣立農以來對我們非常重要也是非常衝擊的部分，請你們談判小組要納入這些危機的處理跟農民的利益，這個要特別考慮，好不好？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：好，一定納入。"],["林委員國成：這個要拜託，好不好？最後我還是要拜託，包括財政部、包括部長，各方面與交通有關的可能要納入，提供資訊給他們談判小組，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員國成）：接下來請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","黃健豪","陳雪生","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","陳俊宇","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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