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本席請副主委請吳副主委好 非常感謝主席因為沒有預期到我們前一位委員沒有要講常常會發生所以我們會從辦公室衝過來謝謝副主委今天我們要審這個"},{"start":24.361,"end":46.653,"text":"國家海洋科技營運中心的設置條例草案我們想請問一下國家海洋科技中心現在因為有國科會海洋中心所以我不知道說這兩個的區隔您可以簡單說一下嗎國科會那個國實驗下設的中心比較是佛學術研究跟學校在做申請的"},{"start":47.333,"end":62.824,"text":"那我們的這個海科中心未來會比較針對那個船模實驗室以及這個調查船的營運管理當然也會受海委會的一些督導然後執行一些事項所以兩個是有層次上的一些區隔"},{"start":63.464,"end":81.114,"text":"好 那因為我們看到你們提的這個報告報告裡面兩大目標嘛一個是提升我國海洋科技能力第二個是厚植海洋科技研究能量那當然您剛剛講的大概是你們五大效益裡面的前三項 沒有錯"},{"start":82.774,"end":102.841,"text":"滿足完整船模試驗需求還有發展本土關鍵的核心技術還有建構國家海洋調查船隊沒有錯但是我本席也很好奇因為你還有第四點加速海域基礎資料建置那所以這個部分"},{"start":104.482,"end":121.456,"text":"因為剛好我念的碩博士都是整個全球海洋面的不管近海還是海洋還是遠洋就是整個大洋的這方面的研究所以我想請問那你們這個列在第四點有沒有相關的人可以來做這一項的說明"},{"start":125.882,"end":136.897,"text":"報告委員加速海域基礎資料調查的一個建制主要就是因為其實我們現在一直在建制當中的我們現在目前國海院本身有設置一個國家海洋資料庫我是國際海洋院院長"},{"start":141.04,"end":162.408,"text":"現在我們本身就有在建置海域基礎資料了包括所有包括本院的計劃還有其他單位的這個計劃案所收集的這個海域的一個資料都有做建置的然後包括我們設計一個國家海洋資料庫然後第二點就是說如果我們未來中心成立的話我們本身有調查船那調查船就可以更有系統的一般所謂的研究船嗎"},{"start":162.848,"end":184.958,"text":"對 就研究船 對 就是可以有更有系統的在去整個全海域的一個區域作業的規劃調查那會發展一些技術嗎 因為就我本席了解好像現在很多技術都是跟美國 NOAA在買的我們現在目前調查船裡面所配置的科儀這一部分是會有構置這個比較尖端的一個科儀的部分那這部分是不是有再做進一步的技術研發"},{"start":186.141,"end":215.368,"text":"所以其實這個海洋委員會的海洋科技營運中心它主要就還是為了我們那個船舶的因為你們本來這些基本的建制一直都有在海洋研究院就有了所以這個它主要還是這個整個船舶實驗室或是發展這個核心技術那我想請教一下你們這邊有設立董事長董事長他有需要一些專業嗎還是其實不用"},{"start":216.44,"end":225.612,"text":"我們這個是行政法人現在國內行政法人的立法體會有監督機關的首長都是無幾職的來做一個擔任主要是負責監督機關會來負責監督這個行政法人"},{"start":229.355,"end":244.89,"text":"所以你們這個所謂國家海洋科技營運中心像海委會也會要購置所謂的無人機不管是空中的還是水底下的你們都會需要購置那像這個部分你們在未來這個營運中心"},{"start":247.692,"end":261.698,"text":"開始之後這個部分會讓我們對採購這一些對海洋科技跟海洋整個的監控會有幫助嗎因為剛好我們今天在內政委員會是海委會嘛那我們這個"},{"start":265.246,"end":289.87,"text":"從112年到今年114年我想你們知道我們採購的這個無人機我們跟廠商簽約了兩億多結果到今年本來應該要交貨了結果呢發現這個不敷使用可能要毀約了要解約啦那像這個未來我們如果有這個海洋科技營運中心的話那是不是可以就我們比較不會就這樣這個好像就"},{"start":293.871,"end":323.237,"text":"到了第三年突然錢也損失了然後我們人等於這個進度我們採購無人機也沒有辦法達成我們預期目標好 謝謝委員那有關於無人機部分我們現在目前調查船的規劃裡面是沒有的那我們調查船主要是做海上的調查所以會有配置下我的意思就是說你是寫說海洋科技營運中心所以你們其實應該就是大概也不叫海洋科技可能就是只是要"},{"start":323.897,"end":352.558,"text":"做這個船而已不一定 還有船模船模也是很重要的一塊因為相關的嘛 船模實驗嘛船模事實上非常重要的一塊裡面會包括關鍵核心本土關鍵技術核心的一個建制所以你們這個並不這名稱很大啦海洋 國家海洋科技營運中心但實際上你大概就是只做船模就跟委員報告我們現在國家沒有自己的船模實驗室啦那很多的實驗還要跑到國外去那你應該成立一個船模"},{"start":353.419,"end":378.151,"text":"但為了傳模實驗室跟調查團經費給下去 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我們大家請就座來 我們繼續開會好 現在我們介紹備席的官員首先我們介紹我們國家運輸應安會的主任委員寧信德副主任委員何慶生委員陳天士委員詹文華"},{"start":1822.025,"end":1835.508,"text":"委員李延遠主任秘書姚承安執行長林佩達我們航空調查組組長劉東敏水路調查組組長蘇水渡"},{"start":1844.521,"end":1871.672,"text":"鐵道調查組組長吳吉春公路調查組組長曾崧仁曾仁崧運輸安全組組長鄭永安運輸工程組組長莊禮璋人事室廖軍會主任政風室"},{"start":1873.103,"end":1899.796,"text":"康主任熙平主計處主任孫淑信秘書處主任楊英文以上這些委員接下來我們就請我們應安會林信德主任委員來報告我們本日國家運"},{"start":1903.009,"end":1930.996,"text":"運輸安全調查委員會業務報告現在請應安會林主委進行報告主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好今天非常榮幸列席貴委員會向主席及各位委員報告應安會的業務重點進行各位委員不吝給予指教"},{"start":1932.642,"end":1951.159,"text":"本會主要的職長是重大運輸事故的調查調查範圍涵蓋航空水路鐵道公路其透過系統性的調查完整發掘可能的噪音及安全的風險提出改善建議以防止類似事故的再次發生相關的業務重點分數如下第一"},{"start":1952.29,"end":1978.255,"text":"重大運輸事故的調查業務那麼有關調查進度方面日本會108年的8月1號成立期間也就是3月30日為止運輸事故的立案調查共有306件已經有277件結案目前還有29件在根據調查中說明如下航空部份立案21件已經結案17件上有4件調查中共發布40項的安全改善協議"},{"start":1980.296,"end":1989.925,"text":"水務立案226件已經結案216件還有10件在調查中共發布301項的安全改善建議鐵道立案32件已結案28件還有4件在調查中共發布221項安全改善建議"},{"start":2002.093,"end":2030.366,"text":"公路立案27件 已經結案16件 上有11件調查中 共發布161項安全改善決議有關近期受關注的重大案件事故 報告如下關於113年10月31日玉洲啟航雜貨船也有案即擱淺的事故那麼這個是一級案 已經在去年的11月公布初步報告"},{"start":2031.587,"end":2054.963,"text":"依據今年的5月公佈事實資料報告12月份會完成整個最終的調查報告國務2114年的1月3日台鐵第125次志強號期堵站出軌以設備損害的事故案這個是二級案那麼依據今年的7月會發佈事實資料報告明年的1月完成最終的調查報告國務3"},{"start":2058.7,"end":2079.565,"text":"去年11月17日帶有公車在台北市忠孝東路往東鎮鄉街口追撞大都會公車的事故這個是一級案依據在今年的5月發布式的報告明年的5月完成最終的調查報告今年的1月25日一輛"},{"start":2081.204,"end":2109.002,"text":"也就是今年這個農曆春節假期的第一天一輛超氧小客車租運公司所屬的現代電動小客車在國道1號亞美休息站的閘道往南自創分割老後起火造成四個人死亡四個人受傷那麼這個案子是一級的案子預計今年七月發布事實追加報告那麼明年的七月完成最終的調查報告現在報告又重點"},{"start":2110.407,"end":2114.567,"text":"第一提升航空水路鐵道及公路事故的較強能量"},{"start":2115.829,"end":2142.734,"text":"為提升本會的調查能量本會藉由辦理研討會專題演講訓練及參與演習等方式持續強化事故的調查能量相關資料請參閱那麼在人因跟工程調查能量介入方面本年度持續發展認知人因調查訓練教材以及強化運劇內部生還因素相關資料的記錄與處理的能力二"},{"start":2144.512,"end":2151.574,"text":"為增進與國際運輸安全組織交流提升我國國際能見度本會積極參與國際運輸安全組織聯會及會議此外為經濟本會調查人員專業技術及期許運輸安全調查薪資與技術我們會派演參加國際運輸調查專業的訓練詳細的資料請參閱第三"},{"start":2170.227,"end":2184.619,"text":"積極爭取主辦事故調查國際論壇那麼今年會有兩個重要的記錄論壇第一個就是亞太事故調查工程論壇這個案子已經在今年的4月8號到10號已經在台北舉行完畢"},{"start":2185.64,"end":2210.25,"text":"那麼有8個國家代表議會對整個輝煌紀錄器、索漢紀錄器、各式印製紀錄裝置及現場的精密糧食等工程技術議題進行深度的交流另外一個就是鐵道事故調查的國際論壇準備在今年的10月21日到24日在我國舉辦預計會有10國的代表來參加對鐵道事故的調查技術跟方我會進行交流跟討論"},{"start":2212.008,"end":2231.601,"text":"那麼有關提升運氣紀錄器的解讀能量方面本會已經完成113年度有關航空水路鐵道公路相關紀錄裝置的這個普查報告相關的解讀率如下航空的部分已經提升到100%水路的部分已經從92.73提升到98.42鐵道的紀錄100%公路的部分紀錄器也是解讀率達到100%"},{"start":2240.513,"end":2257.706,"text":"現在報告 醫術安全支援報告系統的運作狀況以及成果本會自108年改制基金總計接獲446支援報告 去年度接獲112件包括航空30件 水路19件 鐵道44件及公路19件"},{"start":2261.259,"end":2268.97,"text":"並篩選國內外具有分享價值的報告編算已發行8期資源報告的系統專刊但年度迄今已經接受28件的資源報告並規劃於4月份發行4期的專刊"},{"start":2275.802,"end":2283.985,"text":"有關藝術安全改善建議的一個追蹤本會迄今共發布1792項的藝術安全改善建議完成改善的有1691項完成率94.4%剩下101項各單位人在積極改善中其中列管超過三年的有"},{"start":2297.538,"end":2324.799,"text":"16項那麼都涉及它是法律規範的一個標準的修訂還有系統設施組織編織等面向的改善所以它需要時間比較長其中航空部門國防部空軍設定部有兩項水路部門交通部航港局跟港部公司各三項鐵道部門交通部鐵道局跟台鐵公司共計有9項那攻略部門交通部跟攻略局有兩項那麼今年的"},{"start":2326.174,"end":2347.967,"text":"3月11號10號的時候我們也開了市場的協調會那麼請我們分四個模組請各被建議的單位超過三年列管的這個案子請他們來開會那跟他研商到底有什麼困難後續有什麼可以協助他們的希望他們能夠技術完整改善"},{"start":2349.537,"end":2374.763,"text":"那麼第七有關運輸安全議題的研究我們這113年期每年4月份就會發布改善協議的評估報告分析各模組安全的議題那麼依照分析是113年年底事故統計跟改善協議的資料規範的議題如下航空的部分是超新級載具的安全主要事故的類別依序是飛行中失控"},{"start":2375.783,"end":2399.181,"text":"操控下撞擊地障與發動機故障或事象水路的部分最主要的議題是以水作業與管理船舶交通服務系統作業與管理三港運作管理海圖製作與發行遺傳作業與遺傳作業運作的安全在鐵塔的部分是台鐵的組織跟管理正線火災事故與皮膠道的安全管理"},{"start":2400.117,"end":2428.045,"text":"公路的部分是遊覽車跟公路汽車客運業行車的安全危險品運送的安全大陸設計養護及具先進駕駛輔助系統也就是一般所謂的ADAS車輛跟計程車的行車安全等等最後有關執行科技計畫部分我們這去年開始就已經有開始為期四年的所謂建立我國新型運氣事故調查技術與安全研究計畫那麼今天是第二年"},{"start":2430.902,"end":2455.181,"text":"最主要是三大的研究主軸啊的主要成果有如下 關於盤點先進運具的國際安全標準及事故調查的法規 關二執行大車動態模擬以車架撞擊測試以及港區流暢模擬研究 關三建置駕駛員生理行為量測分析系統並優化人因訓練課程先來報告"},{"start":2459.093,"end":2471.141,"text":"大院委員關切的議題執行情形第一有關重大運輸事故範圍的修正那麼這個已經在今年的A28會前交通部共同發布了第二有關辦理先進駕駛輔助系統及電動車輛制調查"},{"start":2474.113,"end":2502.045,"text":"我們今年有一個調查案已經結案另外有個新案已經立案在調查那麼結案的案子是在前年11月30日有立案調查自用小客車在國道1號北上大亞路段發生追撞攻城仿撞車的事故那麼這個在去年的11月29號已經公布調查報告調查報告中提出車輛安全的審驗以及交通管制設施等改善設施以避免類似事情再發生那麼新的兩案呢第一個案子就是"},{"start":2503.277,"end":2510.044,"text":"去年6月6號電動小赫車是國道1號虎尾路段往南自創護欄然後墜落在路面起火燃燒"},{"start":2511.769,"end":2538.02,"text":"另外一個就是也就是剛剛提到的今年春節的第一天電動小客車國道要亞美休息站砸到往南自撞後起火的這個事故那麼我們這兩個案子我們集體調動人力希望能夠變成一個標竿的案子所以我們預計第一個案子會在今年的2月發布事實資料報告那第二個案子在今年的7月發布事實資料報告那我們希望能夠儘早來公布最終的調查報告"},{"start":2539.807,"end":2542.633,"text":"那麼有關調查案子暫期通過的改善"},{"start":2544.707,"end":2572.804,"text":"我們本會成立之後水路案件因為遺傳的事故超過預期那各調查模組人力又分成兩階段譬如說我們在110年之前很多事故都發生但是我們的人力的補足一直到110年到年尾的時候才補足所以我們的人力一方面要新進人員又要訓練又要制定法規要做標準作為程序等等所以我們人力當時沒有辦法 cover所以事實上會有展期的沒有錯可是呢"},{"start":2573.504,"end":2597.32,"text":"可是自110年到去年為止所有的暫期案件幾乎都已經回到正常譬如說水路從52件下降到0件鐵道的部分從5件下降到0件航空從4件掉到0件公路從1件下降所以我們目前為止我們暫期的案子幾乎是沒有了這是我們的成效最後來包括我們一級市政的行銷"},{"start":2598.513,"end":2611.685,"text":"的績效我們希望能夠繼續強化重大運輸事故的調查機制以提升運輸的安全第二深化國際合作提升運輸安全能見度第三透過專業訓練強化事故調查與數據分析的能力"},{"start":2614.963,"end":2643.492,"text":"所有結議本會將秉持獨立公正專業的精神透過強化事故調查機制深化國際合作及推動專業訓練有效提升藝術安全降低重大藝術事故發生率並採取積極措施來避免事故的發生確保我國藝術安全隨著科技進步與時並進感謝委員波榮聆聽敬請各位委員對本會也支持共同為提升我國海陸空藝術安全執行努力報告完畢"},{"start":2645.253,"end":2657.788,"text":"好 謝謝我們林主委現在我們進行詢問我來補充介紹一下我們委員會非常認真的洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2661.903,"end":2688,"text":"好 現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項執行答詢時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員花園登記的時間10點30分截止各委員如果有提案請以10點以前提出以便我們議事人員的彙整"},{"start":2689.179,"end":2713.821,"text":"暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午言則不休息現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行好 主席謝謝 麻煩請我們林主委好 林主委"},{"start":2719.083,"end":2740.067,"text":"好 主委好 主委本席剛剛聆聽了您的這個業務報告其中針對本席過去一直也很關注的就是AIDAS自動駕駛輔助系統你們也針對這個部分有做事故調查報告本席也把它給看完了那你的結論其實還是不脫離第一是有所謂的人為因素 對不對"},{"start":2740.68,"end":2765.996,"text":"那第二就說在這個撞擊的所謂的這個工程車的一個部分其實可能ADAS的這個系統有不管是什麼樣的系統它有一些是沒有辦法偵測到說緩步的工程車的狀況是不是這樣子對 對 回答對不起對不起我剛剛在看 對不起沒關係 來 主委"},{"start":2768.211,"end":2797.537,"text":"是嗎對啊好那其中人為的因素的部分我們要怎麼樣降低我想這應該是我們大家共同也來努力的地方是在ADAS自動駕駛輔助系統其實重點是要幫助駕駛可以某種程度上減輕駕駛的負擔但是絕對不是替代駕駛對不對沒有錯好在2021年其實在自動輔助系統出來之後就已經有在網路上有所謂的這個叫自駕神器我不知道主委有沒有聽過"},{"start":2799.815,"end":2826.199,"text":"有嘛就是說自動下駛因為我們要防止說人為不要去雙手解放開所以說他就是要求說你手一定要在方向盤上但是這個上有政策下有對策啊所以說就有人就是賣所謂的這個防撞神器就是配重盤在方向盤上模擬手放在那上面那2022年2023年也都有相關報導那但是到目前為止"},{"start":2827.113,"end":2854.951,"text":"主委知道這樣的一個神器可以在哪裡買得到嗎我是不知道因為你沒有開自動駕駛車網路上有嘛對啊大家同仁也都清楚是不是因為本席查了一下到目前為止隨便查你的隨便查你的這個關鍵字還不用太多洋洋灑灑"},{"start":2856.55,"end":2882.086,"text":"都是啊我就不講哪個廠牌啊但是它的價格從多少錢從329塊一直到就差不多300多塊它就是模擬一個沙包放在那個方向盤上那我有看到交通部也有注意速發部也有注意所以說有發函給在去年年底的時候有發函給一些比較大的拍賣場拍賣賣場"},{"start":2884.673,"end":2901.123,"text":"警告說這有可能會造成這所謂的道教條例但是還是沒有辦法完全的根基啊而且本席我也沒有開自動自動駕駛車啊我也沒有開電動車啊但是我隨便查一下這樣的一個部分就已經有看到300多塊"},{"start":2902.344,"end":2919.945,"text":"那如果說我們做出來的報告是告訴人講是說人為的因素佔很大宗ADAS你不能完全信任你還是要專注在這個價值上那這樣子的一個自駕神器配重神器就跟我們的政策背道而馳啊主委"},{"start":2922.065,"end":2947.695,"text":"台灣還沒有達到百分之百自家工人的系統他們都是屬於先進價值輔助系統自從上次戴雅路端那個案子公布之後我們有去訪查高工局甚至工路局他們在各個主要道路的高速公路那個顯示板他們都會警告說"},{"start":2948.935,"end":2975.393,"text":"進入茶大的時候在某些特殊狀況的時候請勿開啟先進駕駛因為他認為他有他的局限性是主委現在就是現實狀況跟我們實際狀況不同嘛我們不能只是學術研究我現在講的是說我另外再找到另外一個拍賣他從700多塊到1000多塊不等就可以替代騙電腦你有在駕駛那這樣子的部分"},{"start":2976.448,"end":3003.051,"text":"運安會已經做出報告也告訴大家說人為的因素占大宗這是你的結論嘛對那這樣子是不是能夠運安會你找到問題協同網路主管機關也有觸發部協同交通部協同經濟部至少讓這樣子的因為這個東西很難界定它是否違法但是它確實會造成道路上非常嚴重的交通安全"},{"start":3004.229,"end":3026.45,"text":"那既然你運安會已經做出了報告也證實是說A大使不能完全的信任那能不能有比較明確告訴我們的駕駛朋友不要使用這樣的一個工具有可能害人害己方便久思久思但是只要有一次不方便那就是天人永隔可以嗎"},{"start":3027.529,"end":3045.235,"text":"我認為這個是可行的我們會把這個資訊納入下一次我們在有關電動車A大使調查的過程裡面我們特別建議的是本席要求的是應該是要找交通部應該是要找速發部共同來沒有錯沒有錯我們會協調交通部跟交通部說你這個有關未來的這個檢驗好多久時間可以來做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":3050.138,"end":3072.127,"text":"不要讓民眾那麼方便使用好像這個東西是變成是我們沒有鼓勵啊我們甚至要求說不應該要出現這樣的東西啊因為它跟我們的設計是背道而馳的啊是 我們來協調交通部 塑化部 經濟部看有關這個所謂自駕自駕車跟A-DOS這個它是還是有區隔的啦好 所以因為我還有其他議題一個月內我們來溝通協調可以嗎"},{"start":3075.436,"end":3090.855,"text":"我們來協助交通部看看不是協助我們跟他講你們找交通部找速發部找經濟部找相關部會來溝通這樣的一個部分好嗎一個月內那如果說後續的資料再請提供給本席那再來第二個"},{"start":3091.696,"end":3114.734,"text":"主委現在我們看到說這個隨身電源啊很多航空公司我們國內的航空都禁止對不對因為他有可能有自然的狀況但是隨身電源大家比較能夠理解可是現在還有一些情況我想這也是從我們的飛安自願報告系統裡面這今年2月找出來的一個自動自願報告系統您看一下他說"},{"start":3116.062,"end":3135.557,"text":"藍牙耳機因為現在我們有太多東西都是所謂的這個有離電池藍牙耳機也是一個這個是2月20號的時候有人反映說做航空公司的時候他藍牙耳機掉到座位裡面因為考量藍牙耳機有離電池沒有取出來會對飛航造成安全危險他可能卡在那邊"},{"start":3137.657,"end":3148.977,"text":"不小心或是未來有可能有自然的風險導致派遣員工等等拆除座椅拿出耳機而造成航班的延誤您知道這個狀況嗎"},{"start":3150.763,"end":3175.23,"text":"對 我有聽說 但是我覺得這個實際上是這個上個宗旨講對越來越多的土花作花我會把這個訊息再跟他確認本席現在要講 你們 您看一下你的處理結果是未來發生類似事情優先通報並且用相關的辦法 磁吸棒 磁加物等來取出耳機嘛"},{"start":3176.05,"end":3204.23,"text":"那不是只是針對這個因為您剛剛講到上有政策沒有錯就是現在有越來越多我們國人使用或是說全世界的先進產品越來越多是有離電池那掛一漏萬的情況下是不是應該我們要超前部署就是說針對這個部分有一視同仁的要求跟標準或是說參考其他國家的案例該怎麼樣的處理我們不可能禁止國人或是不可能禁止全世界人類不用藍牙耳機"},{"start":3205.302,"end":3210.269,"text":"那有這樣的狀況要怎麼樣處理是不是應該要訂出一個標準跟方法"},{"start":3211.372,"end":3239.295,"text":"我們會在揮揚安全事件調查案子裡面我們把這個因素考慮裡面跟民產局再協調請他們要特別注意這個把他拉進去或者是說是不是之後可能要求我們機場公司還是相關單位可能因為針對這個離電池藍芽耳機它可能它的特性是有你看磁吸棒它可能裡面是有磁鐵或者是說有金屬相關所以採取磁吸棒比較容易把卡在"},{"start":3241.03,"end":3267.273,"text":"隙縫裡面的這些物品給取出來是不是而不是發生問題之後找不到工具對 這個是很好的一個意見我會同樣轉給美鳳姐前面跟航空公司在討論的時候這個也是屬於其中的一個改善的方式好 因為現在我們看到就是說有自然的一個狀況嘛 是那甚至我們這個月還有看到高鐵或台鐵也有隨身電源自然的狀況當然"},{"start":3268.974,"end":3287.535,"text":"路上的交通工具我也查了各全國都目前是沒有禁止路上交通工具使用但是宣導的部分要告訴國人是說離電池他如果說使用壽命太久可能會有相關的運輸風險這可能也是未來我們要考量的狀況最後講到電池啊"},{"start":3288.835,"end":3308.011,"text":"為什麼會這樣提就是因為最近也有一個議題我想我也在這邊提出來跟主委這邊來就教主委兩天前有平面媒體報導非法改裝露營車的問題我不知道你有沒有注意到其實最主要是台灣現在因為疫情過後很多的民眾也都認為是說露營是一個風潮"},{"start":3309.992,"end":3337.713,"text":"那所以說就會購買露營車但是購買車輛去改裝露營車可是台灣現在的道路相關法規不管是交通部不管是我們其他單位其實對於露營車的規範沒有那麼的明確那其中衍生一個很大的問題是很多人會去做這個露營車的一個改裝但是因為沒有改裝法規所以就變成是他會先送車體給車安中心"},{"start":3342.107,"end":3363.415,"text":"這個先去驗車 驗車完畢之後再去做改裝那改裝民間改裝廠他可能還會有增加什麼太陽光電板或者說這個增加這個便宜的電瓶而導致充電時候行走時候起火時有所聞那這些狀況其實無形當中也都會增加在道路上的一個安全風險"},{"start":3365.033,"end":3388.881,"text":"確實沒有錯 我會提醒交通主管機關來注意這一點 確實沒有錯主委 因為這個部分現在還沒有發生 其實我覺得很好的情況是運安會如果我們每一次都可以針對這些事情來去做超前的討論我本席是期待的 因為代表沒有事情發生我們都是在討論未來有可能的風險 我們來降低風險"},{"start":3390.41,"end":3416.685,"text":"所以現在露營車的狀況前幾天大篇幅的報導那有講到是說希望有合格合法的改裝規範規劃到底怎麼樣的改裝是符合我們的標準符合我們的需求那以及可以讓真的使用露營車的人合法安心上路這一點部分運安會可以跟交通部來做怎麼樣的一個努力"},{"start":3417.321,"end":3444.156,"text":"我們可以把它變成一個議題式的案子來做分析跟交通部來合作好那這個議題我們什麼時候可以啟動因為這個不好意思這不是我們主管但是我要跟交通部協調說有這個議題你們是不是只派公路局或是哪個單位來對這個案子來跟我們做我們有一個運輸安全組我們跟他看看有沒有這個議題試試看怎麼樣來研究這個好那我也拜託主委那是不是就是一個月內"},{"start":3444.936,"end":3469.591,"text":"跟交通部內針對這個議題來去做溝通是沒問題好感謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們洪孟凱委員好接下來再請第二位林國成召委發言"},{"start":3481.516,"end":3502.841,"text":"好 謝謝主席我要請林主委請林信德主委何副主委請何慶生副主委陳委員 張委員 李委員還有姚主任秘書 林執行長"},{"start":3505.735,"end":3530.883,"text":"陳天志委員 張文煥委員 李延年委員姚承安主任秘書 林佩達執行長 請好 主委我一向對我們貴單位我非常支持但是我會非常嚴謹的監督我非常在乎的"},{"start":3532.386,"end":3560.947,"text":"就是領導團結的問題所以為什麼我也請三位委員副主委還有執行長還有主任秘書這一整個應安會裡面主導就是主委但是撫蔽的就是在座的幾位領導人所以我必須要跟主委還有在座幾位的重要幹部"},{"start":3562.54,"end":3582.669,"text":"一定要提醒一句話團結就是力量所以我請幾位上來主要沒惡意而是呼籲要團結但是我必須要提醒一件事情我們這個單位"},{"start":3585.672,"end":3599.336,"text":"是一個行政專業單位跟一般行政不一樣喔你們是專業單位喔為什麼你們的前嫌就是國家運輸安全調查委員會為什麼要掛國家"},{"start":3601.553,"end":3629.783,"text":"是超越行政是超越任何一個部會而是什麼只要有國家兩制通常就是獨立行使單位所以我不希望你有政治力的介入這點我想主委你有什麼看法我來快兩年我都沒有感覺有政治力的介入而且是獨立專業的好"},{"start":3632.265,"end":3650.437,"text":"我本委員會我每一次在執行到處聽到就是我們不讓你解凍請問主委我們應安會解凍的東西送到立法院來了沒有我們已經準備好那行政院他會統籌辦理啊"},{"start":3652.443,"end":3677.637,"text":"是統籌辦理 因為我也知道啦行政院不要你們個別送嘛要統一才送嘛實體下很多部會首長就跟我講他們也想要送啊過去傳統的東西只要委員會通過了以後大概就沒有問題啊當然因為這次的審查預算 我承認"},{"start":3679.229,"end":3702.085,"text":"就殺到你們要害嘛 一個就是特資會 一個就是業務會嘛其實特資會是對你們傷的最嚴重但是 這叫做監督啊 要提醒大家不是你們沒有錢就不能做事啊公務人員本來就是這樣啊 不是嗎 主委所以 我還是要呼籲"},{"start":3703.426,"end":3717.078,"text":"應安會該解凍的盡快解凍你送來我身為那個召委我都願意叫你們送的那我就感覺到很奇怪我們交通"},{"start":3718.379,"end":3736,"text":"委員會裡面所有人我都呼籲他趕快送到現在 召委拜託你們送全世界找不到這樣欸你們為什麼一天到晚就是一定要什麼統一啊或什麼這個叫做什麼 政治力的介入"},{"start":3739.478,"end":3748.603,"text":"這個立法院要你們解凍你們不解凍你們就只有一句話當初你們要我們解凍為什麼要當初要幫我們凍其實這本來就審查預算裡面的一個"},{"start":3756.747,"end":3781.227,"text":"方法這解凍的問題就是你把問題說清楚講明白那就可以解凍就可以使用啊沒有3啊你們現在都混搖不清啊解凍跟3億算是不一樣的所以主委我為什麼要特別去提你不要有政治力的介入這個是我要呼籲你當然啦"},{"start":3782.335,"end":3788.652,"text":"你這個單位雖然小單位但是權力之大可是你們都沒有應用"},{"start":3790.053,"end":3812.378,"text":"該調查的還是要調查所以主委不要跟他們這跟大罷免無關啊該送的還是要送這是我以重心長特別啊給主委一個建議還有在台上的重要幹部你們不要以為你們是副主委就無權利你們不要以為你們是委員你們就無權利不是的"},{"start":3813.418,"end":3826.628,"text":"應該要給主委適當的方式替他們分憂解勞這是最主要的一個問題不是嗎所以我還是希望啦主委解凍的問題盡快"},{"start":3829.428,"end":3847.382,"text":"獨立單位有獨立單位的形式這個你們特別要去爭取啦好不好好來另外我還是要談啦主委我們的缺額在擴大人才流失是非常頭痛的"},{"start":3847.984,"end":3874.154,"text":"因為這個單位啊我講快一點沒有這個基本概念是無華來這個單位的啦你這個不是一般公務人員隨隨便便調來那最起碼的話一定要有他的專業嘛不是航空專長就是公路啊或者車禍有一些問題所以 主委為什麼現在切而擴大到底人補進來了沒有"},{"start":3876.204,"end":3887.269,"text":"我們的缺額就是正常的人員流動像到目前為止近三年我們的人員流動有進有出大概是目前淨流出大概三個人"},{"start":3888.592,"end":3903.281,"text":"還好啊還好是但是在我看來一點都不好對不對人眼流動會有流電會有流動因為你這個單位流動一個人你就要未以籌謀因為你們是專業一個單位"},{"start":3905.982,"end":3924.249,"text":"你們這個人才是不好找的啦所以為什麼我把請在座幾位上來就是撫蔽你之外還有一點肯定你們這些都是專業在我們底下這些組長也都是專業的哪一個不是專業的"},{"start":3925.858,"end":3949.375,"text":"所以我還是要你不要把它當成這個流動力的問題就是你們業務的問題要特別去注意還有一點就是你們現在很奇怪你們提出來的建議跟你們提出來的這些改進措施來 主委"},{"start":3950.49,"end":3978.583,"text":"那為什麼你們都不理你們 為什麼沒有啊 我們我們這個改善協議的完成率越來越高啊 而且這個被促進的單位他們如果有困難我們有幾個機制 譬如說我們每三個月就會有一個即協調會議那每半年還會有一個檢討會議那今年的3月11號、12號我們還特別加開市場會議好 那我請問一下台鐵為什麼你們就政這麼多項完成率會這麼低"},{"start":3979.949,"end":4008.185,"text":"因為他需要很多時間對嘛所以我跟你講這個只要行政院長我坦白講啦你這個單位行政院長如果不支持你當然但是留步話嘛所以這些牽涉到安全的問題拜託主委要去爭取該監督的還是要監督該追蹤的還是要監督所以在這個部分我還是建議你們要提出來除了除了"},{"start":4009.145,"end":4038.685,"text":"建議改善之外你們根本就沒有監督機制嘛所以我建議我們在座幾位回去稍微研究一下我雖然我雖然是提出改進但是我後面有氣無力啊我沒有法的依據去追蹤去要求他改進啊處處都要所屬單位長官去督促這個叫做間接的監督這個效力不好的"},{"start":4039.265,"end":4054.433,"text":"要我們應安會有直接監督的力道所以我建議這個部分該修法的該修辦法或者該修法去把它放進去的這個是要特別這個特別我建議啦"},{"start":4055.353,"end":4072.436,"text":"那最後我還是期待啦流動力的問題還有跟這些政治力的結合問題我還是希望主委最後我還是呼籲團結就是力量雖然我們是小單位但是我們的責任重大"},{"start":4073.582,"end":4095.322,"text":"責任重大所以最後我給你建議的就是說你如果覺得後續監督改進的力道不足就要修改法令去把它放進去這樣的話可能在整個行政機關的效益會更好這樣的話也會達到我們應安會的一切"},{"start":4096.343,"end":4107.209,"text":"保護所有的這些交通安全是有所幫助的主委這點我給你建議我希望你參考一下好不好好謝謝好接下來我們李崑澤委員執行"},{"start":4131.843,"end":4135.734,"text":"謝謝主席 請一下林主委好 應安會林主委"},{"start":4139.808,"end":4168.093,"text":"委員好 運安會是在2019年成立也即將要進入第六年了當初我們在推動運安會的一個成立從非安會提升為運安會最主要是希望能夠提升事故調查的量能也能夠提出改善的建議最重要是監督改善的一個落實"},{"start":4169.173,"end":4192.319,"text":"那在相關的這樣的一個事故的發生調查的過程當然也累積了非常多的資料那這些資料不管是事故發生的資料或者是改善的相關的建議它都是日後我們改善交通安全的一個最重要的基礎資料這樣的一個基礎資料我們還是發現它有幾個問題第一個它難以查詢"},{"start":4199.158,"end":4218.192,"text":"第二他是沒有進行了風險的一個因素的一個統整另外就是對於進一步資料的分析這個部分沒有落實來主委簡單說明一下我們應安會的這樣的一個基礎資料目前是不是有這樣的一個問題"},{"start":4220.207,"end":4234.075,"text":"謝謝委員的指導,事實上我們才112年10月份開始,就對整個事務調查常用統計圖表,我們已經有增加這個功能。那麼目前,目前藝術環節改善建議的這個頁面,我們電腦的頁面可以選定相關條件,關鍵是就可以去查。"},{"start":4239.218,"end":4258.475,"text":"那我現在正在研議委員剛剛提到的動態統計儀錶板我們今年年底就要進製完成好這個目前的進度是如何這個建制這個統計的儀錶板這個在過去我們已經提出很多次的要求啊對對來趕快來說明啊什麼時候進入的那委員你好"},{"start":4260.902,"end":4287.823,"text":"那我們大概規劃分兩年來建置那第一年像今年我們會把整個感染建議的統計數字的那個儀表板建好那明年的話就會真的委員所提的這些安全風險包括安全議題的部分也把它納入這個網站上面幫助對 當然這個儀表板要納入風險的樣態分析跟政策建議的這個追蹤這個是這個儀表板最重要的功能目前你們的規劃是如何"},{"start":4288.59,"end":4310.326,"text":"對我們就是其實我們會今年已經有做先期的作業像我們在委員要求我們每年頒布的這個感染建議的評估報告我們已經把這個風險分析的安全議題納入了那這個是前期的作業那因為這個前期作業完之後那才會把它納到這個網頁上呈現那這兩年我們預計明年應該可以是完成好"},{"start":4310.686,"end":4331.359,"text":"那接下來我們運安會一個重要的工作除了這個儀表板的建置我想數據跟資訊的公開是下一步的關鍵那交通安全不只是運安會的一個重要的職責以及交通部重要的工作當然有很多的學者或者是民間我認為這個數據跟資訊應該要公開就是說我們這個數據儀表板"},{"start":4337.223,"end":4361.276,"text":"應該要作為開放式的一個交通安全的一個資料庫那我們針對各類事故的樣態及風險分析還有系統性的風險樣態的這個分析我們要開放這個API或是資料的查詢平台讓民間跟學術研究可以使用來 主委說明一下應該是包括在裡面"},{"start":4362.256,"end":4389.481,"text":"開放API這個讓民間學術能夠進一階這個是應該在裡面的這個是我們要努力推動的工作當然我們對於相關的這些基本的一個基礎的統計還有分析的系統最主要就是要統計要分析當然最重要就是改善那我們這個儀表板的建設希望能夠依照我們的一個要求要去落實"},{"start":4390.501,"end":4403.576,"text":"另外我要跟主委來討論一下就是有關於我們的年度運輸安全改善的建議評估報告他有提出相關的改善建議的這個結案率"},{"start":4405.458,"end":4428.986,"text":"那我們看到飛航事故前年的改善的建議結案率98.6那今年提升到99.5那公路事故83.5前年那今年已經提升到87那鐵道的事故有83.3前年結案率那今年也提升到89.6"},{"start":4431.027,"end":4448.42,"text":"那水路事故呢 水路事故73.4啊 雖然略有提升但是還是有兩層啊 這個未結案 那這個部分啊來主委說明一下 為什麼還是水路事故這個部分還是有兩層沒有結案呢"},{"start":4450.458,"end":4465.394,"text":"那個水路組因為他有時候他是有季節性也不能講季節性有時候在某一段時間他案子特別多的時候就感覺上他會擠在一起那人力是固定的這個理由不夠充實來水路組來說明嘛為什麼還要兩次"},{"start":4467.777,"end":4486.223,"text":"他的水路的事故主要是什麼?然後未結案的這個結案率為什麼會還有兩成的差距?有關於這部分最主要是之前發生有很多案子都是涉以這個飲水作為的修訂尤其最主要是飲水法"},{"start":4486.983,"end":4505.177,"text":"還有這個就是VTS有關於這個船舶標示條例那這樣的一個航路標示條例那這個修法的過程比較冗長尤其是飲水法總共有40條大概已經要修了三十幾條所以這一部分呢航港局已經在努力的在做那我們也積極的在跟他們溝通"},{"start":4506.978,"end":4518.925,"text":"這個必須要提升他的結案率這個是建議改善的結案率這是非常重要的一個關鍵點另外我來提醒一下雲南匯就是在2020年的10月"},{"start":4523.067,"end":4528.612,"text":"其實我就曾經針對無人車電動車這些新興的載具它的運輸安全的問題執行過運安會當然我們知道電動車的快速增加它當然也會帶來相關的交通風險"},{"start":4540.303,"end":4566.451,"text":"當然電動私人載具的快速增加是要為了達成國家的一個淨零的目標那科音業其實也要全面的電動化這是一個趨勢嘛但是它也帶來另外一種風險因為電動車的物理特性它的電動車如果發生事故其實我們在新聞已經看過很多了它起火燃燒的溫度還有它持續的時間"},{"start":4567.811,"end":4596.334,"text":"比傳統的油車還要久那滅火的方式也有所限制這都是在發展電動車的過程裡面社會所注意到的相關的風險那當然我知道運安會也在起手調查有兩起的電動車的事故那運安會其實也參與過國際電動車的相關的安全會議那目前我國電動車的安全的規範"},{"start":4598.151,"end":4619.604,"text":"我要請教運安會有沒有相關應該改善的建議來說明一下這一點我們就比較力不從心因為事實上為了調查電動車的事故我們也有加長訓練譬如說我們派人出國到美國警察大學或是理達警察大學他們有關電動車電池向外面的那種燃燒怎麼鋪面還有過照什麼"},{"start":4621.425,"end":4648.638,"text":"那國內消防署他們也有有關電動車起火什麼我們也去參與他們的這個有關滅火訓練等等那事實上電動車三大部分嘛電池電控電池電動電池還有那個它裡面的安全控制工程部分但是現在台灣有關電池譬如說電動車起火看起來明明是撲滅啦它過一陣子的時候它又起火燃燒"},{"start":4650.238,"end":4670.547,"text":"這個不是我們的主委我們現在提到電動車這些相關的載具它真的是一個敬禮目標的一個交通運輸工具的趨勢那當然我們現在都知道電動大巴士也在政府的補助以及推動之下也在快速的成長"},{"start":4671.647,"end":4685.826,"text":"那電動大巴士的如果說以這樣電動車的物理特性以及相關它滅火的相關的限制或者是它起火的這種特性如果說我們的運安會主委在這邊說我們這個沒有辦法沒有基礎"},{"start":4689.431,"end":4709.984,"text":"這個會讓民眾憂心如果電動大巴士發生重大的交通意外事故第一個我們首先我們的調查量能就沒有第二個我們沒有無從相關的建議改善這個是一個很大的缺陷這個主委要特別去針對今年針對這種電動車相關的這種事故他的調查量能"},{"start":4715.327,"end":4719.191,"text":"以及相關的法規我們必須要去進行檢討我們車輛電池安全規格"},{"start":4723.28,"end":4745.82,"text":"還有消防交通等等的法規是不是要去增訂增修這個都要去討論啊以及事故發生時候的處理流程是怎樣來主委說明一下你們現在有沒有概念如果電動大巴士發生這種起火或者是重大的交通事故你們處理的流程是什麼"},{"start":4747.239,"end":4763.766,"text":"其實是這樣子啦這個就我剛剛講的電動車三大部分嘛一個是電機一個是電池一個是控制嘛那麼電池的部分目前事實上你看在國外的新聞也有常常看到就是說不管是"},{"start":4765.566,"end":4792.114,"text":"電動車在地下室電動車或者是電動的大巴士或什麼它起火燃燒現在全世界都在研究這個到底電池它到底有哪些的特性它燃燒之後怎麼撲滅它那因為大家會調查是說它已經發送完之後我們去調查但是沒有錯委員講的沒有錯我們也要知道說當時是為什麼會燃燒或什麼這個要加緊相關的因應主委你今天的說法會讓社會大眾"},{"start":4795.475,"end":4821.003,"text":"會產生疑慮我們對於電動大巴士以及相關的電動車相關的事故的調查到目前的基礎非常的薄弱幾乎等於零這個會讓民眾來擔憂我們應安會應該要針對這些新興的載具加速的因應其實我記得我在質詢之後好幾年前大概五年前"},{"start":4821.923,"end":4842.825,"text":"大概質詢這個相關的電動車新興載具的議題那運安會其實有去做進行調查範圍的一個修訂那這個運安會在這個過程裡面有沒有進行相關的研究這個進度會不會太慢 來說明一下 簡單說明一下"},{"start":4844.953,"end":4872.813,"text":"我們還在蒐集資料中中啦現在還是在蒐集資料進度太慢 民眾擔憂我們會加快腳步這個會讓社會大眾針對這樣的一個新興載具它電動大巴等等的這樣一個電動車無人車相關的這個交通事故的調查量能啊竟然是幾乎等於0這個我們非常的擔憂你是沒有啦 就是已經開始在動了啦"},{"start":4873.913,"end":4898.032,"text":"已經開始在動了這個答案真的是民眾會非常生氣我們要加緊我們的相關的這個一個調查的量以及相關的預防措施現在就要去啟動它相關的預防機制以及研究好不好是謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝我們李坤哲委員請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":4910.391,"end":4913.523,"text":"謝謝主席 又請我們議員會 林主委好 林主委"},{"start":4918.271,"end":4945.568,"text":"好 林國偉好那我接著這個剛剛我們李昆哲委員談到的電動車那電動車事實上確實我想在世界各地都快速成長那在台灣也呈現這個現象我們看過去10年從全台灣那一年只有664輛的電動當然還混合先講清楚那這個部分包括油電車那到了我們今年兩個月前"},{"start":4946.528,"end":4973.255,"text":"2月份2025年2月份已經到達11萬4千多輛的電動車在台灣我們登記如果以這個幅度來講的話是成長10年成長170倍他成長的一個幅度確實是非常非常大請教一下我特別有看到我們在去年前年我記得在林口有一個影星叫是林志穎嗎"},{"start":4975.434,"end":4996.962,"text":"發生電動車什麼樣事故的時候那時候我不知道是不是林主委啦我都不清楚我還沒到任還沒有齁那時候我們就好多人委員跟那個主委啊他討論討論去啊最後我記得沒錯那時候結論說抱歉這四人的載具齁跟我們運安會基本上的原則是不介入"},{"start":4998.052,"end":5021.199,"text":"那到了你今年到1月剛剛講發生那個楊梅交流道那個蠻重大的事故起火造成四死四傷的一個慘劇之後所以我們看到在2月份當然謝謝你們啦我認為說應安會慢了真的是慢了那到今天2月8號我們也看到你們當然這個來修改了公告修訂了"},{"start":5023.975,"end":5051.4,"text":"這個運輸事故 重大運輸事故範圍將電動車電動車輛只要具先進的ADAS的車輛也納入你們一個調查的範圍讓過去說好像完全不行的現在有點普了 也展開了調查那現在目前你們對於這種電動車的事故調查大概有多少起就剛剛報告的有現在兩件兩件在調查中嗎"},{"start":5052.739,"end":5072.897,"text":"好那我們也預告啦因為現在正好關稅大戰那如果台灣要用零關稅去談進口汽車非常可能會是一個被降低的這個的部分那未來在國外有很多相對的便宜的各式車輛都會進來會造成台灣的一個車輛"},{"start":5075.76,"end":5103.834,"text":"各種的一個情況可能改變我認為電動車電動車他這個趨勢是會更快速的一個成長你剛剛講的我們電動車調查這個進度我也去看了一下去年的6月份跟今年的1月25號陽梅休息站這個的部分都有造成了死傷尤其在陽梅交叉道這個部分全國極度關注因為覺得太悲慘了裡面有非常多的"},{"start":5104.594,"end":5112.461,"text":"可愛的小朋友嘛那當然我們看了有到去年6月6號這一件你也在調查中嘛然後當然1月25號"},{"start":5114.571,"end":5141.713,"text":"對你們來說應該發生時間還需要去累積更多的一個證據我就請問一下齁能不能大概說一下你們大概有SOP調查的整個程序大約是要多久你們自己要求自己的我們調查是分成五大階段來是現場作證階段嘛然後這個事實資料報告階段然後事實分析還有審查等等"},{"start":5142.153,"end":5158.426,"text":"那這個案子目前是屬於這個事實資料發布之後的階段進入這個分析的階段大概要5個月嘛最主要調查的重點是這樣子啦那去年6月6號的呢去年6月6號這個來已經發布事實資料報告"},{"start":5169.128,"end":5177.826,"text":"發布了 今天早上發布了結果昨天才還沒有好啦好啦我覺得 人民對於當時"},{"start":5180.305,"end":5201.502,"text":"我們應該會成立的期待我覺得莫忘初衷啦第一個我們覺得這麼多複雜的訊息這樣的一個專業的交通事故我們希望有一個單位能夠在相對有效率的讓人民能夠知道有自治權益第二個呢能夠提供一個正確的一個訊息"},{"start":5202.898,"end":5219.937,"text":"第三個是運安會這個專業的單位提供了重要的一個運輸事故訊息給相關單位之後能夠造成一個良性的循環它能夠改善到最後能夠避險的這個部分但我是覺得在很多的效率上"},{"start":5221.318,"end":5246.687,"text":"如果你是人力不夠 人力根本不夠有些的部分不成比例 譬如說水路啊什麼大家人力就不對稱那這個部分我是覺得你身為這個主管你必須要去自己去主張啊你看看啊 因為院外會的功能很重要嘛高工局他跟大家講他的調查的結果 他的說法113年6月6號那個事情是變換車道不當"},{"start":5248.43,"end":5276.126,"text":"那是定案了嗎是決定了嗎然後1月25號因為很多記者媒體訪問這種公開的聲明也算是一種他的高工局這件事情認定的調查的一個說明他認為是車輛機械操作不當我說天啊你知道嗎這個事情不管是人為那是我自己操作不當球場可能不見得有利但如果是機械"},{"start":5277.335,"end":5296.994,"text":"或者SITEN自駕ADAS系統的一個故障或者相關的車輛的因素那他可能車商可以求償最後一個不好意思是你道路設計有問題啊因為陽梅這個部分就很多人在說嘛那就是你高空局或者你的平面道路你的主管單位有問題"},{"start":5297.955,"end":5319.142,"text":"大家在等這個報告其實我是覺得不光是一個結果第一個促成這個機構他到底是不是交通道路設計不當或者到底車輛有問題大家都在等你這個報告還是你認同現在關乎你所有的報告就是結果嗎一個是變換車道不當一個是車輛機械操作不當這是不是結果"},{"start":5320.882,"end":5343.408,"text":"高工局的改善措施或者是他的事故調查寫的措施只是他初步的看法他真正造勢的原因還是我剛剛報告我們還是從五階段裡面一個一個去抽絲剝繭嘛不一樣的他的報告有點等同我們的事實資料報告一樣但是我們還要進入分析還要進入去審查等等不太一樣啊"},{"start":5344.568,"end":5368.366,"text":"所以問題現在就有很多人氣啊甚至車禍的傷者 當事人啊甚至有一些比較關心的甚至有一些專家學者還在持續對這件事情完全不同的跟高官局不同的一個說法他在等待你嘛所以一個大家可信的公平正義的一個裁判所以我們也希望在速度稍微能夠快一點 好吧這兩個在"},{"start":5369.947,"end":5385.815,"text":"調查中那我們再說一下你調查已經結束了這個ADAS就是這種輔助或者所謂的那種自駕的一個輔助的一個系統這就不只電動車啦一般的車輛現在先進的車輛都有搭載這樣的一個功能那"},{"start":5387.034,"end":5404.413,"text":"在高速公路上面我們的工程緩撞車被追撞的事件還是真的是蠻多的蠻多的我們就以一個112年啊因為太近了你說你沒調查好嘛112年11月底發生在我們國道1號"},{"start":5406.249,"end":5427.295,"text":"中部的路段 工程緩撞車 遭小客車撞擊因為後面調查那小客車有開啟ADAS系統好啦 你們經過了一年啦在113年 去年的11月29號 你們可能規定是一年啦 也發布了"},{"start":5427.955,"end":5451.715,"text":"你們確實的一個調查運輸這個事故的調查報告就表示你們完成你們負責任完成了那這種報告呢也後面送交了交通部他有必須建議他改善的事項按照的歐洲委員會制定的相關的基準來做什麼樣的改善讓更完善那給高工局呢也跟他講說因為這發生在內側"},{"start":5453.576,"end":5465.613,"text":"高速公路內側的車道這邊的車道是超車車道你要特別的怎麼樣注意你有說強化移動性內側車道施工什麼管制布設方式我剛剛講最後期待"},{"start":5470.339,"end":5483.246,"text":"你們專業的訊息在座費了這麼多腦筋啊專家學者包括學界甚至學校大家提供一些意見你提出來了給交通部跟高工局那現在處理情況"},{"start":5486.9,"end":5509.499,"text":"還是狀態又改變 又是今天早上又改變了 主委 來你說一下像這個不是已讀不回啦 因為依照依照法律的規定 它有90天要恢復嘛那90天法律完之後 我們要還要報行政院 因為行政院還要辦廣考一次所以一般這個都是有一定的程序然後另外就是"},{"start":5510.68,"end":5522.999,"text":"他剛聽我同學講他有提意見但是那個意見不對他又重提啦他們有一點有一點有一點怎麼講還在掙扎是不是掙扎"},{"start":5525.825,"end":5544.867,"text":"所以我們把他退回他從體啦是這樣子啦不是引渡的啦我是覺得齁因為我跟你講民眾的一個期待不能這樣在政府這樣弄來弄去對民眾沒有意義民眾在罵的時候不好意思他絕對不光是罵政府某一個單位哪一個局哪一個組不可能罵"},{"start":5546.248,"end":5558.997,"text":"你們都不知道在搞什麼嘛你們按照你們的運輸事故調查法第27條第一項誠如你說的嘛你調查報告完成之後給相關機關90天之內就是我先講現在是139天"},{"start":5563.62,"end":5589.678,"text":"現在是139天遠遠超過了一個多月他們應該提出什麼呢他們應該這些單位要向行政院提出處理報告我是完全念條文啦處理報告那處理報告基本的精神就是針對你們提供專業意見可行的趕快做執行計畫嘛就像我們今天會編預算要執行計畫出來那如果不可行的有障礙的或者再跟你們回報因為這個必須複製你們所以在90天"},{"start":5593.86,"end":5611.206,"text":"顯然是沒有任何的一個狀況如果複資你們的部分你們還在等候回覆或者處理中嗎那你對於這種相關單位沒有辦法在法令的這個效能中來配合或達成改善你會不會自己也有點無奈那種感覺你可不可以說明一下"},{"start":5612.286,"end":5633.26,"text":"我們倒不是無奈啦,因為我們希望他提的計畫能夠更周圍一點,如果他提的這個不吞不養,不是他提的比較一種例行公事的話,我們覺得這個跟我們所當時的初衷是沒有達到的,所以我們就退回叫他重提,但是我們後面還有一個行政院管考的半年的管考的建議,還是會繼續追蹤下去啦。"},{"start":5634.62,"end":5645.253,"text":"現在交通部回了嗎?回復了嗎?交通部回復了沒有?都回復了嗎?那你這邊為什麼說等候回復?"},{"start":5650.834,"end":5679.954,"text":"你們這個狀態是什麼意思跟國人報告在高工局的部分他們已經有提出處理報告跟方向指引計畫了那目前的狀況是我們已經發函請他們重提第二次那他們的這個計畫內容那我們覺得還有一些改善的地方所以現在是在請他們重提第二次的過程那交通部呢那交通部的已經來了所以我們目前是在等高工局的今天早上嗎今天早上來啦因為我們會等高工局你們這個報告是哪個單位寫的是這樣嗎你這樣描述的過程是這樣嗎"},{"start":5681.374,"end":5709.183,"text":"你知道嗎這個東西就簡單講一件事情我們講規規矩矩清清楚楚的這個球在誰手上 燙手三衣丟給誰了那總是你們自己要知道嘛現在你們這個訊息就說 抱歉你們還沒給我訊息你們這個報告就是這樣如果你們覺得像你剛剛講的完全狀態不應該在這裡我是跟主委建議一下譬如說以回復正在處理中嘛他就明明跟你回復啦對不對 初步的回復都可以嘛"},{"start":5710.134,"end":5734.896,"text":"那最後跟主委建議一下我們希望你們的這個很多的一個專業的意見最後變成他的一個改善的計畫能夠整體在整個面上面能夠在掀起預防這個問題因為我們再看一下國道緩撞車被撞的事件AIDAS這不光是電車任何車輛有AIDAS系統的我們特別在看從"},{"start":5737.242,"end":5757.522,"text":"兩年多前到112年11月那時候本來有216件結果我們看到了有裝有ADAS的其中有開啟的有73件但是還是裝上去了那我們研究當時就有很多的報告希望怎麼改善結果我們再看一年半之後快兩年之後統計到114年3月總共累積的"},{"start":5761.366,"end":5790.155,"text":"持續增加而且有開啟的ADAS的幅度在從30%上到36%這是我剛剛在跟你提不管說你們我相信你們的專業啦你們給高工局的建議或是說給交通部的建議我希望能夠某一些能夠盡快落實從這個整個面向上面從實體的數據上面真的能夠逐步向好的一方發展我們"},{"start":5791.155,"end":5803.493,"text":"持續努力好不好對 這個也是我們希望他能做到的謝謝委員指導好 謝謝好 謝謝我們魯明哲委員在這裡我特別要跟"},{"start":5804.639,"end":5821.949,"text":"提醒我們林組委跟所有列席的官員在答詢的當中資料要精準資料要精準不要委員提出問題然後明明是有來的來文跟補充要把它講清楚"},{"start":5822.709,"end":5850.774,"text":"這樣不會產生官員跟立委執行當中的這些誤差矛盾這樣的話就失掉我們今天業務報告跟執行的功能好不好來 接下來我們請陳樹業委員執行謝謝主席 請主席邀請林主委好 林主委"},{"start":5855.251,"end":5873.86,"text":"各位早安本席在這邊也是要來關心這個電動車目前就是有關這個電動車的一個事故調查的部分那我們根據公路局的一個統計數字我們可以看到很明顯的從2018年一直到2024年這個電動車的一個登記數真的是非常明顯的一個攀升一直到去年底2024年"},{"start":5882.944,"end":5884.386,"text":"這個純電車的一個統計數字已經有達到96397這個量的這個數字那當然包含就是油電混合的話就是將近11萬的這樣子的一個登記數"},{"start":5898.686,"end":5924.076,"text":"所以也表示出就是說這個電動車的一個市場這個也蠻熱絡的也被接受度也蠻高的那當然就是說從這個電動車的一個使用的一個普遍性之後這個意外的事故當然就是會有看到一些案例陸續的一個發生那當然我們也很明顯的看到就是也剛剛我們那個盧委員也剛剛提到的這個"},{"start":5924.896,"end":5947.322,"text":"之前的一個明星他的這個特斯拉事故著火起火之後就是引起了大家的一個注目從這一起的一個事故才引起大家在委員會有關心就是我們運安會對於這樣子的一個特斯拉的車輛這個意外事故的時候我們的調查"},{"start":5948.829,"end":5965.405,"text":"是不是有那個量能那當時當然這個都還沒有那個當時運安會是回覆說針對這個部分還沒有可能還沒有去這個啟動那在大家關心之後我想這幾年就是應該一兩年的時間運安會應該有陸續針對這樣子的一個個案應該有進行去關心"},{"start":5972.392,"end":5999.584,"text":"那目前就是說這樣子的案例比較少那應該比較明顯的就是最近比較重大的一個事故就是湖尾那個國道一號南下這個湖尾段還有我們今年一月份在陽明這個休息站的這兩起事故是引起社會大眾非常大的一個震驚跟注目那這兩起我們運安會是不是都已經有這個列案調查了"},{"start":6001.212,"end":6026.1,"text":"市主委現在重大運輸市公安委修正完之後只要是電動車的我們就不會用以前那種出來看個案現在都會調查全部會列入調查那麼電動車事實上最近幾個案子的歸納出來大部分電池安全是一個很重要的問題電池安全還有駕駛操作的程序之外也是我們調查的重點"},{"start":6028.242,"end":6048.029,"text":"駕駛的操作目前我們有列案調查的就是去年6月這一件跟今年1月這一件總共兩件那去年6月這一件已經報告已經公布了嗎去年6月的報告還沒公布"},{"start":6049.769,"end":6066.043,"text":"對 幾月會公佈?今年七月要公佈還是年底?今年年底今年年底要公佈目前還沒有公佈?還沒有那我看到有一份資料怎麼你們在今年二月就已經公佈了?"},{"start":6066.621,"end":6078.549,"text":"那是事實資料報告事實資料的報告事實資料報告就是說你就現況的蒐集的資料做報告那報告完之後要進入分析階段分析階段就經過還有一個專業小組審查會議檢視會滿繁雜的然後到最後才進入這個審查"},{"start":6085.453,"end":6110.684,"text":"是 好 那就是確定的一個事故的一個調查要到年底才會公布那目前因為我們也看到就是說主委也有表示就是說有關這個電動車的一個事故的調查我們會修訂就是運輸事故的調查法 是不是 是會修訂相關的一個法令 那目前這個法令的進度是如何"},{"start":6111.584,"end":6125.187,"text":"目前還在修法中啦 還被措施 但是沒有妨礙到我們因為因為作為事實範圍我們已經訂定了所以沒有妨礙到我們對金融商的調查所以這個法令跟我們的這個目前在進行中的兩個案子是不會"},{"start":6126.167,"end":6139.576,"text":"我們在進行當中不會因為有一些資料的取得沒有辦法取得需要透過修法去取得應該還不至於我們也希望電動車我想也是未來可能這個"},{"start":6145.36,"end":6168.216,"text":"成長的速度應該也是會持續的一個成長因為目前就是因應整個國際這種就是減冷減碳這樣的一個趨勢我想這種測量數還是會增加所以有關這類型的事故的調查我們也希望就是運動會這邊能夠有比較多的一個就是技術跟量能來"},{"start":6169.469,"end":6187.946,"text":"就是進行這一類的一個調查那另外我再請教就是說有關這一類因為我們這樣子的一個案例在國內也算是比較就是少所以我們不曉得說這一方面的案例我們會去國外做一個經驗的一個汲取跟交流嗎"},{"start":6190.365,"end":6211.091,"text":"我們對這個預算算成我們也蠻傷腦筋的因為我們國外要去受訓的量能就會減少我們也開始在檢討他的優先先後管理的次序那麼人員的訓練確實也會縮短那尤其是國外你如果去開會我們因為我們運燙會"},{"start":6213.752,"end":6240.337,"text":"在國際間的這個指揮運輸安全調查這個community裡面我們算是能見度還蠻高的如果我們不能去的話那我們在國外相關重要年度會議裡面都會對一些法規既定的一個修改我們可能就沒有辦法在第一時間參與這個是蠻遺憾的是因為剛剛我們就是主委在做這個報告郵報報告的時候這是我看您的簡報"},{"start":6242.062,"end":6266.518,"text":"就是你們剛剛的簡報那你有提到就是預期的施政績效你也是分三個面向是三大區塊那其中一個深化國際合作提升我國運輸安全能見度這個是很大的一個比重對不對對那這樣子的話如果說我們在114年度的一個預算被刪掉了六成"},{"start":6267.898,"end":6282.988,"text":"剩下的這樣子的一個預算數你要如何去達到你預期的一個績效可能會打折扣啦打折扣對我想這樣子對我們整個就是預安會的一個運作可能會有很大的一個阻礙吧"},{"start":6283.874,"end":6311.401,"text":"然後會變成有時候我們要實體去參加會議我們沒有辦法出國的話就會跟對方講我們改成視訊或者是用什麼方式或縮短縮短時程或者是改變改變計畫的這個這個這個這個行程等等也也蠻困擾的是就是說對於這種經驗的交流當然就是說可以透過視訊這樣的一個變通的方式然後那我們也看到就是說在應該是"},{"start":6314.332,"end":6339.709,"text":"今年就是我們慾安會有受邀就是參與那個日本日航的就是羽田機場的這個非安事故的一個調查我們有受邀去做這樣子的一個參與跨國性的一個事故調查如果說像這樣子的話我們這種出國旅費被刪減的話恐怕這樣子的一個協助我們可能就使不上力了"},{"start":6339.949,"end":6368.647,"text":"就會排擠我們的預算會排擠會排擠就比較可惜是 所以這樣子的話對我們的運安會就是說整個運作真的是一個非常大的會有影響會有影響是 所以這個預算我覺得說運安會是一個非常專業的一個單位所以這個預算其實也跟相較其他的單位來看也不是非常龐大可是確實每一筆都是非常一個重要所以"},{"start":6369.788,"end":6397.317,"text":"對於這樣子的一個刪減數我們也是覺得非常的一個遺憾是我們單位的預算不多所以如果刪的那個比例雖然跟外單位比起來好像錢不多事實上比例還蠻高的比例高可是每一項經費都是都很珍貴每一項經費都很珍貴對你們來說是有非常那個重要謝謝委員的關心那刪了也跟東又不一樣根本毫無毫無希望了嘛刪減就是刪減掉了啦"},{"start":6398.678,"end":6422.518,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝好 那你們就是要自己要加油 謝謝委員關心 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝陳樹業委員特別跟大會報告一下我們喜智捷委員喜智捷召委執行完我們就休息十分鐘那現在請何新淳委員執行"},{"start":6427.58,"end":6432.204,"text":"謝謝昭偉 我們請林主委好 請林主委主委好今天早上很多委員都在關心電動車的電池的問題那你們說正在調查中 因為有幾件事故已經出現那我就要問 接著也是電池的問題 行動電源"},{"start":6454.628,"end":6476.657,"text":"我們看到已經不管是國內來國內在酷寒飛往新加坡的時候他在112的1月11號有一個新聞通報新聞稿那確實呢行動電源一過熱起火機艙內煙霧瀰漫他發生了什麼行動電源起火那有沒有影響飛安"},{"start":6478.735,"end":6506.798,"text":"主委你認為有沒有影響飛安當然有影響飛安但是你們呢在你們根據你們有通報你們要通報你們之後事故調查了之後你們有回本案非屬重大運輸事故非本會調查範圍好我尊重在那一次酷航的這一個事件裡面沒有造成重大的運輸事故但是我覺得要跟主委"},{"start":6507.694,"end":6519.005,"text":"提醒飛機上的行動電源起火不是只有國內的這個酷航一個案子國際上的案例頻傳釜山航空在2025年的1月28號"},{"start":6522.796,"end":6551.318,"text":"造成整個飛機的前半段機艙燒毀你看看連機艙的頂部通通都燒毀那在2025的3月21號香港航空也是經傳行李架起火原來行李架上裡面行李裡面有行動電源他的這個行李架的上面的這個空間你看也是燒成這個樣子"},{"start":6553.203,"end":6573.247,"text":"在下一頁我們雖然看到國際的規範裡面各航空公司在飛機上已經禁用行動電源但是我看到一件又一件的事故發生我就盤點了一下我們現在各個航空公司裡面雖然在航程當中"},{"start":6573.787,"end":6591.168,"text":"航班當中全程禁止使用跟充電行動電源但是放置的位置有沒有建議有沒有指引沒有中華航空只是建議還避免放在位置上方的行李櫃長榮航空沒有明確的規範"},{"start":6592.469,"end":6620.181,"text":"新宇航空只建議你要隨身攜帶並放置妥當也沒有規範要放在哪裡比較好台灣虎航也沒有明確規範華信航空建議不要將行動電源放置在座位上方的行李櫃利用航空請隨身攜帶也希望不要放在座椅上方的置物櫃放在哪裡是一個重點"},{"start":6621.88,"end":6650.652,"text":"行動電源呢之所以會常常在自然也好或者是在飛航的期間也好有沒有發生任何事故的可能性這個都是我們必須要放在心上也希望政府能夠有明確的指引告訴大家我們在坐飛機的時候不容許有一絲一絲絲的這個不安全性不容許有一絲絲的風險尤其在飛機上我想主委你同意我的說法吧"},{"start":6652.415,"end":6662.885,"text":"同意嗎同意同意這個我想這個越來越複雜那個越來越複雜民行局應該要找他們來靠要綠定清楚"},{"start":6663.53,"end":6688.041,"text":"民航局說他們遵守國際規範啊那國際規範之外呢還是發生事故那我們有沒有更主動明確的去做一個安全指引我要告訴你喔主委你不要告訴我這不是你的事喔你現在一口就說那是民航局的事民航局有事沒事確實他也是他的業務主管他要做那你運安會的高度你們是獨立調查單位"},{"start":6690.197,"end":6712.329,"text":"4月13號在我們台灣的高鐵也發生了行動電源起火高鐵有通報嗎沒有通報沒有嘛沒有通報那很好很好的是什麼你知道嗎還好不幸中的萬幸是沒有發生什麼問題事故就是所謂的這個行李雖然著火冒煙車廂的這個煙霧的偵測被偵測到了"},{"start":6716.935,"end":6738.73,"text":"大響但是呢我們有這個旅客來協助滅火器有成功的滅火所以呢那列車長也第一時間有疏散那我相信第一個交通運具裡面的安全問題是屬於我們運安會可不可以做的我告訴你主委你在你的職長裡面"},{"start":6740.812,"end":6755.444,"text":"運輸事故的趨勢分析運輸安全的改善建議之追蹤以及運輸安全的專案研究這個在你的運安會的執掌這個第二條規定的清清楚楚"},{"start":6756.084,"end":6774.377,"text":"那你越南會不能被動的有重大事故發生的時候我才要來調查我們國人更希望的是什麼當你注意到這些影響到運輸過程中的安全有這樣子系列性的不斷發生的事件的時候如果有這樣的趨勢"},{"start":6776.318,"end":6791.978,"text":"那我們能不能主動的來做分析研究來提供一個安全指引主委可不可以謝謝委員你的意見跟我們的做法是一致的我到現在還沒看到啊我們現在是這樣子我們所有的調查案子我們會撈出它的一些議題式的"},{"start":6792.839,"end":6810.648,"text":"把他撈出來說這幾個案子有共同的系統性的問題那行動電源這個你說你有撈出來那行動電源你有立案來做一個分析研究嗎因為電源的火車它不是高鐵這個它不是屬於正線火災不是屬於重大運輸範圍裡面的應該要調查的範圍那好那你說高鐵不是好"},{"start":6812.199,"end":6841.526,"text":"不幸中的萬幸沒有人受傷沒有擴大事故那我現在意思喔從飛航當中的行動電源的起火到高鐵裡面的行動電源起火你這一系列的事故你剛剛說嘛你要撈事件嘛撈數據嘛那這樣一系列的這個行動電源的起火了那你認為運安會要不要主動的去做立案分析研析然後有什麼樣的安全指引"},{"start":6842.266,"end":6859.234,"text":"如果他進入我們運輸安全事務調查範圍內的時候就會去撈出來因為這幾個案子就是他有系統性的問題所以你現在跟我說的是我跟你講的這一系列的行動電源起火是跟你沒關係的"},{"start":6860.39,"end":6876.085,"text":"像高鐵這個它是屬於鐵路行車規則裡面飛航裡面咧飛行航空當中的行動電源的放置問題呢這也是如果它涉及有延燒然後造成設備損害造成航空機損害的時候我剛剛給你看了那麼多照片不就是了嗎對對對但是這個還有一個界線"},{"start":6879.969,"end":6899.279,"text":"什麼界限 藝人學運動會 獨立機關是比較高規格的這個呢 這個是一般的生活中的小事情所以跟你運動會沒有關係嗎他如果在課堂裡面他冒煙 可是他沒有燃燒啊主委 拜託你好不好你這樣子回答讓人家沒辦法接受欸"},{"start":6903.381,"end":6910.767,"text":"國人的安全難道會因為他只有冒煙沒有失火不是我是指是不是我們的立案是不是我們立案調查的範圍我是指這個不是說我們不關心我剛剛跟你講你的資料裡面不是只有立案調查你還有事故的趨勢的分析你還有安全改善建議你還可以有安全的專案研究"},{"start":6926.738,"end":6930.761,"text":"沒有錯這個也是我們關注的這個範圍沒有錯那我剛剛就要提醒你啊行動電源會起火會自燃已經不是只有飛機上的問題而已連在高鐵也可能出現這個問題那剛剛很多委員都在關心電動車的電池的問題那表示我們所有陸海空裡面所有的電動的運具裡面的電池的問題行動電源的問題會不會"},{"start":6956.241,"end":6972.11,"text":"造成我們的交通運具的運輸過程的危險那這樣子夠不夠可以成立一個專案來研究來告訴大家告訴國人說還有告訴所有的交通運具的所屬單位跟他們的從業人員我們碰到這些事情的時候該怎麼應應該怎麼處理該怎麼面對國人的安全是第一要緊的事"},{"start":6981.567,"end":6997.974,"text":"主委對不對對嘛那你剛剛一開始回答是什麼意思啊不是我剛剛的意思是說他是不是屬於立案範圍裡面但是這個案子確實是你的職長又不是只有立案範圍才要去調查才做調查而已"},{"start":6999.014,"end":7022.339,"text":"我們不能防範於未然嗎可以可以可以嘛是那我就告訴你已經一系列的事情都發生了行動電源電動車的電磁問題那你運安會可不可以主動的立案來做研究分析來給予安全指引這個有那麼難嗎不會啊我們會立一個案子來做來做持續分析趨勢分析"},{"start":7023.752,"end":7040.093,"text":"主委啊 主委 你也好有擔當OK啦OK啦 最快什麼 多久的時間要成立我們一個月內把它整理出來然後看看我們未來的趨勢要怎麼就後續怎麼計畫做 好不好一個月內喔 謝謝"},{"start":7043.441,"end":7068.75,"text":"好謝謝何新淳委員那特別再提醒喜智捷委員執行完畢以後休息10分鐘現在請喜智捷委員喜智捷召委執行好謝謝主席我們請主委好主委林主委"},{"start":7072.076,"end":7101.479,"text":"好 委員好主委好我剛才剛才心存說到氣到要死其實主委我覺得運動會應該要講很清楚就是說哪一些是你工作要調查直接的有一些是你間接的那是直接的要列入你的撈出來的主題間接的你要不要撈出來你的主題那到底分際在哪裡你要告訴我清楚甚至就是說到底"},{"start":7103.734,"end":7124.964,"text":"因為防範未然有時候你不知道嚴重到什麼程度所以比如說你以行動電源來講全世界各國現在的國際標準是什麼你指揮對於行動電源上飛機的這個國際標準是什麼 指揮知道嗎我們手上沒有這個資料都沒有人知道 有人知道嗎 原來會有人知道你要再報告一下"},{"start":7132.422,"end":7156.985,"text":"報告委員那個目前來講在IKEA上面他有一些這樣子的質疑但是並沒有他最主要是說對於飛機上的使用及充電這兩個是禁止的其他關於怎麼樣置放並沒有一個國際上的一個標準所以是禁止使用行動電源禁止使用就是禁止但是攜帶"},{"start":7158.106,"end":7174.249,"text":"他國際沒有規範所以你就講清楚嘛那主委您知道意思嗎那就是說將來這個行動電源上飛機是要國際規範還是台灣自己要不要規範這個部分你們要研究一下嘛"},{"start":7175.27,"end":7195.203,"text":"對 台灣應該要有自己的綠定啦 應該要有啦對因為每個國家的國情不要假設國際選舉有規定 它也是一個最低要求標準而已啊對 所以剛剛新竹委員問的說你們要這樣子確明確的回答 懂我意思嗎你這樣子呼 這樣子回答齁 不怪那天都會想起 你知道嗎"},{"start":7196.344,"end":7201.31,"text":"主委你懂我意思嗎我覺得你將來可能這個部分回答要精準一點我舉個例子事實上有一些做得好的要謝謝你們你們的那個"},{"start":7218.468,"end":7243.523,"text":"報告裡面的第二點有講到辦理具先進駕駛輔助系統之電動車量之調查這個其實本席要求過很多次那看到你們有做我覺得也還蠻高興的啦就是說以前我們看到那個自駕車車禍雖然自駕車車禍死亡人數不足3人但是呢以前你們是死亡人數超過3人才會啟動調查"},{"start":7245.024,"end":7265.053,"text":"那我現在要求就是之前就要求說你自駕車因為它不只是一般的車輛而已它可能還有一些電腦系統那有一些網路通訊等等的問題所以這個部分你們現在有進入調查我是覺得應該還是給你們肯定啦有做的要額外 沒做的要檢討"},{"start":7267.394,"end":7290.593,"text":"所以這點也要跟你們討論一下 謝謝你們不過呢 這個還是有所不足就是說這個法規你們可以看到自駕車分了六等級那現在我們台灣做到的應該是到二就是駕駛他有一些自己可以自控但是還是要有人駕駛三"},{"start":7293.379,"end":7314.396,"text":"Level 3的系統有辨識環境能力駕駛適當干涉這個現在台灣有沒有沒有沒有台灣現在頂多是2.5而已那上面高雄港有港自駕車這是算Level幾你說高雄港有港自駕車"},{"start":7316.874,"end":7340.351,"text":"這個我...你不曉得?所以你不是說有專案在研究嗎?研究到連國用,現在開始做了不知道高雄這個郵港自家座位,依照這個判斷我覺得他應該是Level 4了因為他在港區內,真的是無人駕駛你只要上去,他就帶你郵港"},{"start":7342.145,"end":7355.551,"text":"所以我是覺得你們的即時訊息可能要再載入一下要比較敏感一點而且要去了解就是說到底這個自駕系統你們去研究甚至有些那個什麼"},{"start":7356.789,"end":7385.698,"text":"在地下室召喚的比如說你停車停在地下室那有些人每次都找不到車他就按一下B他就開過來了這個其實是蠻方便的但是現在這個特斯拉有在用對不對對用的結果有沒有安全疑慮那如果對於這個網路通訊演算有一些網路的斷網的時候那他的安全到底有沒有疑慮"},{"start":7387.011,"end":7415.954,"text":"那你現在這個部分不知道有沒有研究我們還抱歉還沒有這方面的研究所以我看你們的調查你們是調查報告可以給我看一下嗎那個你們調查之後的報告看你們調查哪一些讓我知道一下好不好好好那再來就是說主委其實我跟各位有做要額外沒有做要檢討之前我們看過那個原子能委員會那個我也讓主委看過嘛"},{"start":7417.131,"end":7439.473,"text":"其實科普教育包括運安、飛安、交通安全的教育很重要其實那個合約所之前我跟他要求人們也做原子能、科技、科普等你看檔案很好耶也對人民很多一線的學習跟直接的教育有很大的功用那我們來看我們自己的"},{"start":7440.589,"end":7455.491,"text":"我們自己的當時主委都有答應我就是我在112年113年4月113年6月主委都認為說這個中藥那要辦而且會跟交通部跟台鐵一起辦"},{"start":7457.47,"end":7476.367,"text":"現在你給我答應,還沒辦?去年有辦,去年年底在高雄有辦我們也發了一系列的宣導活動或者是研討會來教育活動譬如說我們還特別到福原大學去宣導航空教育安全然後海洋大學我也有去"},{"start":7477.088,"end":7488.747,"text":"我看你表現有六場座談跟研討會有啦有座啦那這個是不是有機會像那個我們看我後面那個雲子能委會他們辦的"},{"start":7490.134,"end":7512.588,"text":"所以它這個是就是對社會比較普及的教育啦就類似科普教育這樣子啦那你那個當然是有對象的有做我們也是覺得還不錯啦有進步我們就是先鼓勵嘛後面還有什麼有機會再發展進步的空間像原子能科技科普展這樣子類似的這樣子的活動我們有機會來辦嗎"},{"start":7514.68,"end":7529.168,"text":"我們可以研究來辦啦這個其實是這個方向是對的還不錯啦是是所以這樣主委有承諾來辦沒問題啦沒問題啦希望說我們可以照主委的承諾能夠看到對民間更多你包括普悠瑪啦"},{"start":7530.248,"end":7549.778,"text":"包括太魯閣啦他這發生到底是什麼情形我們調查他又是怎樣那你比如說你在不同的車廂如果真的有什麼狀況有什麼應變措施有機會減少生命的安全的維護這個部分其實都有一些算是科普教育可以去指導的"},{"start":7551.119,"end":7565.315,"text":"那包括鐵路舉他的慶祝黃豆 事實上我覺得有時候我們不能說今日功績明日忘記嘛就是說今天普悠瑪跟太魯閣這個事情在我們印象當中真的都是有很大的傷亡啦"},{"start":7565.916,"end":7579.793,"text":"那像這個部分是不是像鐵路局有辦活動之外運動會是不是也可以跟鐵路局一起類似這樣子的一個宣導也讓人民記得這樣子一個傷痛那現在國家是不是已經"},{"start":7581.274,"end":7596.629,"text":"運安跟鐵路局是不是已經改善將來這個部分的疑慮安全可以沒有安全的疑慮可以將來的行車都可以安全這個部分是不是主委也一併來思考就是說跟鐵路局你們把這個成果總是要讓大家知道一下好不好"},{"start":7597.269,"end":7615.559,"text":"我們可以把 變成一個鐵道安全的議題然後 把他倒進酒來搬啊這樣好不好我是希望說 這樣喔真的 我們要看到未來這個情形不要再發生啦是 謝謝所以最重要 我們運安就是你們處理事故之外以後事故不再發生 這是我們最大的目的嘛"},{"start":7616.139,"end":7639.628,"text":"所以希望說這個部分那主委就可以跟鐵路局那一起像這個一個know-how的一個整理然後讓呈現給人民知道我想這個也相當的重要好不好這個就主委也找時間再繼續來辦理好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員長 謝謝OK 謝謝好 謝謝喜智傑召委現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7670.215,"end":7671.216,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7685.384,"end":7714.48,"text":"請問請問"},{"start":7721.615,"end":7733.821,"text":"我們現在在走我們現在在走我們在走我們在走"},{"start":7743.047,"end":7747.832,"text":"前面的桌子的空間很涼快"},{"start":7758.382,"end":7758.662,"text":"誰會是在那邊"},{"start":7773.456,"end":7780.304,"text":"好 我現在來打給你們看好 打給你們看好 打給你們看"},{"start":7789.415,"end":7792.597,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":7812.188,"end":7823.27,"text":"再加水,再加水再加水再加水再加水再加水再加水再加水再加水再加水再加水再加水"},{"start":7840.433,"end":7862.218,"text":"他們的 他們的 他們的 他們的 他們的 他們的 他們的 他們的 他們的 他們的"},{"start":7865.499,"end":7866.239,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7888.208,"end":7890.089,"text":"這間餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳"},{"start":7915.701,"end":7919.524,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":7937.822,"end":7938.742,"text":"新竹新竹"},{"start":7966.152,"end":7995.759,"text":"對"},{"start":8006.092,"end":8006.112,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":8011.756,"end":8011.776,"text":"香蕉"},{"start":8042.176,"end":8048.219,"text":"這張圖是在2012年, 當時是在2012年, 當時是在2012年"},{"start":8065.468,"end":8092.315,"text":"如果想要多做一件事的話就來做一件事如果想要多做一件事的話就來做一件事如果想要多做一件事的話就來做一件事如果想要多做一件事的話就來做一件事如果想要多做一件事的話就來做一件事如果想要多做一件事的話就來做一件事"},{"start":8095.036,"end":8095.056,"text":"身體"},{"start":8124.195,"end":8149.392,"text":"市長在講說我們要先把經濟環境整理好我只想要一個對於我只想要一個對於就是說我們在整理整理整理整理整理整理整理整理整理整理"},{"start":8159.17,"end":8160.954,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8246.854,"end":8273.425,"text":"好 現在各位官員請就座請林靜憲委員執行謝謝主席 本席邀請我們運安會林主委運安會林主委委員好"},{"start":8274.79,"end":8303.433,"text":"所以有兩件交通異常的狀況請教主委有了解嗎第一個就是高鐵啊到站沒有開門然後車子就開走了另外一個就是台鐵啊有一個列車他停車的時候呢超過月台所以鐵路的台鐵的駕駛啊就把ATP改掉然後再倒車"},{"start":8304.605,"end":8331.644,"text":"再倒車回到月台去這件事情 主委知道嗎知道那我們 慾觀會有介入調查嗎這個案子還沒有到調查不過我們認為應該有檢討的空間什麼檢討空間 你想要調查嗎他們的列車駕駛跟他們列車廠之間他們整個公司的整個處理師第一個喔 高鐵從創立以來大概第一次發生這種狀況"},{"start":8334.127,"end":8359.081,"text":"就是你車子停了 沒有開門然後呢 要把車開走這班車是北上的還好它停在板橋所以在板橋要下車的旅客沒有辦法下車上車當然也不行但頂多沒有辦法下車的旅客多載一站到台北下車"},{"start":8360.899,"end":8369.062,"text":"那這台車如果是在台中沒有開門 那旅客就麻煩啦你在台中沒辦法下車 會不會直接強迫載到台北或板橋來那 主委你有坐過高鐵嗎有有有高鐵上下車啊 它都是 因為我這個也算職業坐高鐵的啦 我在自己坐的啦"},{"start":8383.342,"end":8403.454,"text":"他一定要有一定的訊號他還用手勢還有巡車邊的人員然後當場的指揮場鎮主任指揮還用吹哨子司機才可以開走那他沒有開車門所以也沒有指揮他可以開走他沒有得到可以開走的訊號他就把車開走所以我覺得這個已經不是有沒有開門的問題這個是已經是一個算"},{"start":8414.315,"end":8441.181,"text":"如果第一個以高鐵過去營運績效那麼好安全的評價那麼高發生這種事情我覺得要介入調查而且過去像這種台鐵高鐵基本上應該要有因為他們都是重要的運輸工具如果發生重大的缺失甚至有安全性的問題都應該要由公正第三者調查"},{"start":8442.622,"end":8463.962,"text":"你現在不調查就變成高鐵自己調查自己了台鐵自己調查自己了那那麼查的可不可能大事化小對不對 都內部的人嘛 對不對所以這個也是為什麼議員會要成立的目的嘛你們就是一個專業公正的第三者我認為應該要介入調查了否則啊"},{"start":8467.728,"end":8479.933,"text":"高鐵發生這麼離譜的錯誤啦如果以我搭車的經驗啦這個是很離譜因為你車子停下來也會有訊號要你開車門而且車長 列車長也會開車門他有兩個鑰匙 應該是有兩個鑰匙那時候駕駛沒有打開因為開車門的列車長也會把鑰匙他會去轉開嘛好 那如果轉不開他跟駕駛怎麼聯絡聯絡不上嗎"},{"start":8499.243,"end":8527.092,"text":"然後如果你沒有開車門他絕對不可能給你訊號叫你開走應該是這樣子吧那他為什麼可以把車開走呢沒有等到現在就把車開走我覺得請運安委密切注意這種事情因為通常重大事故都會由不當停車開始的我們來看台鐵台鐵在今年2025年已經有六次的"},{"start":8528.206,"end":8553.773,"text":"不當停車啦1月5號他停車位置認錯所以最後一個車廂沒有進入月台最後一班車沒有進入月台啦2月27號過站不停3月13號停車超出月台有四個車廂啦停車停到位置啦3月13號一樣喔過站不停3月20號過站不停"},{"start":8558.636,"end":8583.088,"text":"4月11號停車位置錯了超出月台台鐵今年已經有6次停車不當那我們再來看台鐵在過去有個案例他在高雄戈戎沙地處就發生重大鐵道事故了他也是因為過站不停然後再倒車當時就有"},{"start":8586.653,"end":8612.801,"text":"就有曾經發生過啦那國外喔 日本有一個慘案啦日本發生一個慘案是日本JRC日本喔他有一個班車啦那司機喔停錯位置就不當停車他超過了月台72公尺後來呢 他已經要倒車嘛然後倒車以後那個霧點了嘛所以他就加速嘛希望把時間給彌補回來"},{"start":8614.978,"end":8644.447,"text":"結果就超速超速那個造成出軌就撞到了公寓撞到大樓死了一百多個人所以這個就是蝴蝶效應不要小看停車停錯這個就是管理有問題那你從這種小地方這種最基本的不容許犯錯的那你都會犯錯了那如果發生重大事故那當然沒有意外了"},{"start":8645.796,"end":8665.351,"text":"你看啊我整理給主委看啊台北台北就今年就有六件我說我希望啊包括我剛給主委分享的這一次台鐵的違規停車啊不當停車啦也請議員會主動了解好不好你現在有霸王條款了嗎"},{"start":8667.208,"end":8696.397,"text":"對不對今年二月今年二月我過去就一直要求你們要把運安會的罷網條款再改回來什麼樣的事故運安會可以介入但是運安會應該也有一個罷網條款就是如果你運安會認為該事件你有主動權可以介入你認為這個事件不單純必須要在進一步調查其實你是可以介入的是這樣"},{"start":8697.979,"end":8707.482,"text":"這個是可以研議的那你這個我希望你應該進入去調查吧還有現在這樣發生一個案例啊就是華航降轉這個問題啊華航有一個班機要飛新加坡主委知道這個事情吧知道對不對他飛了一個多小時"},{"start":8723.1,"end":8750.091,"text":"往往這班機飛了一個小時從桃園要飛到新加坡飛了快一半結果有出現異常再飛回來飛回來降轉在高雄小港機場當時就有人質疑啦你都飛一半了如果小問題為什麼不停越南就停附近什麼我也不知道啦就整個飛機再飛回來"},{"start":8752.981,"end":8767.869,"text":"那這個案子運安會有調查嗎因為他轉將這個是還算一般也沒有嘛但是那轉將原因呢我們有在關注他這個案子為什麼會沒有就近轉將這個案子也沒有報給運安會運安會有收到發行轉報過來了嗎"},{"start":8778.714,"end":8794.107,"text":"報告委員這個案子是民航局他已經在調查了所以民航局有複製到運安會那我們也知道說這個事件的他的原因是經過的原因我們有在關注這個事件以上報告你的關注程度跟我一樣看新聞"},{"start":8796.26,"end":8820.818,"text":"因為 應安會如果接到有正式的立案的話 你在網站會公佈啦就所謂的初步 初步調查你這個案子連初步調查都沒有就是你現在根本就不去調查這個事情只是民安局告訴你而已嘛那這個 我認為 飛機的這種異常 更嚴重啦 更嚴重啦"},{"start":8822.149,"end":8844.414,"text":"有一些非常安全喔就只要稍微有意外都是死傷都會很慘重的我也希望醫院會啊像這種狀況啊院會應該要多也可以主動了解吧我們主動了解好不好這個就是所謂霸王條款的作用嘛對那我再那我再提一點在三三雕角喔有一台貨車台鐵的貨車出軌"},{"start":8847.842,"end":8875.478,"text":"或是出軌就造成民眾不便嘛 當然嘛 已經整個卡住了後來復軌 就是把這個拖軌的列車再把它弄好拖了很長的時間啊那為什麼拖那麼長時間台鐵把責任推給運安會 推給貴會啦台鐵說啊 拖了那麼久 這個列車才復軌是因為啊 在等運安會來做調查"},{"start":8877.336,"end":8891.526,"text":"就好像有時候我們發現車子碰撞的車禍 會停在路邊當警察來看嗎那這個事情呢 就怎麼會造成 啊 耽擱那麼久現在台鐵說是因為等運安會了"},{"start":8893.906,"end":8921.332,"text":"我也沒什麼時間我講快一點結果運安會說沒有啊早上11點的出軌啊我運安會啊1點多就派人來了我3點以前我就調查完畢了那台鐵拖到5點車輛車廂才覆軌我了解是這樣子啦我不知道是哪一邊講錯啦但是你要知道如果如果台鐵的消息不是不正確那你們要澄清啊"},{"start":8922.745,"end":8949.688,"text":"你運動安衛有一個訊息澄清專區主委知道嗎知道現在是空白啦你從來沒有澄清過任何消息啦我是給主委你提起啦這個人家會關注啊那你已經知道火車出軌了這個算重大意外啦你要趕快去看啦台鐵說是不是因為你拖到時間啊我不知道是不是這樣子啦"},{"start":8951.127,"end":8977.731,"text":"你是不是啊他們對媒體講說在等一段會這是他們比較work in level的人啦工程技術人員講的啦那你要 你可以澄清一下你為什麼不澄清還是你當做那個沒關係啦沒有你的事我們有要跟他澄清說這個因為他有話要說過才有話要說的是喔是喔你的意思是這樣對不對我是提醒你啦你有澄清你該澄清嘛對不對"},{"start":8979.707,"end":8979.968,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委員現在請徐富奎委員執行"},{"start":9015.818,"end":9040.597,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們林主委好 運安會林主委主委早主委我想這個運安會是我們台灣這個跨運區安全調查的最高的一個專責機構那我想這幾年下來我們也發現一個很嚴重的問題就是說這個"},{"start":9041.838,"end":9065.988,"text":"我們整個這個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向而不是一個風險的一個導向所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委我想這個剛剛我們林俊炫委員在提的我自己有發現好幾個問題就是說我們這個運安會的這個立案標準過於僵化明明很多案件這個存在危險存在這個已經出了事故"},{"start":9066.528,"end":9073.442,"text":"但我們運安會卻沒有介入去做一個高風險的一個調查處理的一個機制問題到底出在哪裡 主委"},{"start":9075.646,"end":9100.612,"text":"委員講的確實沒有錯一般外面的認知是說這個影響為何沒有調查問題是他法律的規定在中大藝術法委員裡面有一個律定剛剛林俊賢委員講的也沒有說我們有另外一個罷免條款所以如果認為造成人民生命財產安全什麼我就應該要進入調查確實是有這個機制主委你說我們說的都沒有不對但是要怎麼去改變這樣子一個制度"},{"start":9102.433,"end":9116.962,"text":"我們有幾個案子今天早上講有一些電動車我們都主動去關切他說這個案子要調查確實是這樣主委我想像我剛剛我要舉一個例子就是我們去年我們台鐵有個內圍案這事主委知道沒有"},{"start":9119.924,"end":9137.197,"text":"我們有一個三三三四次的那個去建車的司機員沒有遵守這個SOP進行倒車那這個事情聽起來是說因為還好沒有出事情所以這個我們好像就把他當閒 事之不宜人家給處理"},{"start":9141.503,"end":9162.635,"text":"這個令維這個案子有調查嗎沒有調查沒有沒有對那像這樣的一個制度怎麼去處理我們都總是這樣被動這個被動式的一個調查這樣一個機制難道不應該檢討嗎還是我們應該建立一個高潛在風險的一個事故的一個立案機制我是不是請提到主人好請說"},{"start":9165.894,"end":9188.637,"text":"委員跟委員報告內圍站這一個案子我們有主動去了解那過去台鐵有幾次的這一個司機員停車位置不當不管他有沒有通報我們都會主動了解那沒有立案是因為他沒有到達立案的門檻但是我們有持續關注那是情況我們會啟用報案條款去立案那我舉一個例子過去在年底"},{"start":9189.198,"end":9214.5,"text":"那台鐵有幾次這個吊車的事件因為我們發現到它的頻率很高所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款那立案調查以上主委那我請教一下像這樣子一個院安會一個專業跟人力的資源的部分我記得上次我們一直在委員一直在討論到目前為止我們相關的人力跟這個專業的這個資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎"},{"start":9215.836,"end":9227.941,"text":"目前我們的利害OK但是委員剛剛提的這個風險導向確實是一個很好的idea因為因為我們如果調查的報告做最後導出根本照樣的說我們"},{"start":9229.677,"end":9245,"text":"報告的過程中會有說跟風險因素有關係的我們也會有做重新分析所以類似的東西類似的事件出來的時候我們都會會做定性定量都會是啦這邊還是要提醒一下主委因為我們現在的這個"},{"start":9246.701,"end":9272.806,"text":"運具的領域都不一樣啦所以需要的一個事故調查的人力的部分也要有涵蓋包含像智慧公路無人機還有自駕車這些的那個新興運具的一個調查的一個專業嗎是不是這樣才能夠去符合這樣的一個需求嘛對我們現在也用AI的技術引進來每一個組都有在用開始在引導了所以這本應該還是要趕快去盤點應該去落實啦你沒有人是可以做這個工作"},{"start":9276.166,"end":9299.721,"text":"主委 我想這個沒有客氣 應該是要補人就要來補人啦是是是那另外我想 主委 我們運安會是不是有面臨一個所謂的資料取得困難甚至是一個多頭管轄的問題議員的了解 你們在調查這個鐵路事故的時候要跟台鐵索取這個行控資料調查飛安的時候要跟民航局跟航管中心借這個資料"},{"start":9300.862,"end":9329.27,"text":"而且有時候還涉及外包的一個維修業者那主委如果一旦事故發生那院會能不能在第一時間取得完整沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料目前為止應該沒有這個現象取得都是OK的這樣是不是有必要我們來推動一個跨部會即時資料的調閱平台跟一個事故資料的備份機制來避免我們的調查過程受到阻礙這有沒有這個必要性"},{"start":9330.083,"end":9358.203,"text":"要不請執行長你看看這個因為這個涉及多模組的報告委員目前我們在包括航空包括鐵道的一個部分我們在取得資料的部分目前各單位都是相當的配合沒有問題目前為止沒有聽到有任何的一個困難那有沒有必要來推動這個跨部會的即時資料調閱平台謝謝委員這邊的一個關心那如果未來我們有"},{"start":9359.535,"end":9364.12,"text":"有相關的這樣子一個需求的話我們是不是再請委員再協助本會"},{"start":9365.219,"end":9390.297,"text":"我想這個是很重要的一個機制啦這個我們也應該是要立即取得資料趕後來做調查那我另外還是要提醒主委因為我們現在我們運安會的這個調查報告有時候等半年甚至一年才會出來這個我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了而且對於我們社會來講大家知道事故發生之後就是要知道真相但是我們現在都一直在等等幾步等沒這個消息"},{"start":9391.998,"end":9408.823,"text":"這個部分的那個機制主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查"},{"start":9410.783,"end":9434.519,"text":"那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計賠償保險理賠所以我們會不會要很精準"},{"start":9437.361,"end":9463.119,"text":"但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊 我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教齁如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制"},{"start":9464.276,"end":9487.568,"text":"事實上我們的事實資料報告出來監察院都會拿去看那看監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告就會跟 欸你這個單位有行政疏失啊什麼但是我們不是要以處罰為目的我們是要找出根本的噪音這才是我們的關鍵啊 對對是啦 要等到這個不接受報告這個事情後續還是不改進這個怎麼做處理後續"},{"start":9489.901,"end":9506.67,"text":"我們會流程上看看用怎麼樣對社會大眾關注的案子會讓他更體貼我們可以適時的可以總是找出問題一定要改進啊改進我們也要去追蹤啊要去追蹤你們做的報告有什麼意義沒意義啊事故還是會發生啊"},{"start":9508.42,"end":9519.495,"text":"這個螺絲還是會掉滿地啊那我們一般行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院講行政院也有政務委也在有時候會定期開這個會請交通部、鄉會主管那個局處會來"},{"start":9523.28,"end":9540.785,"text":"所以針對剛剛我提的那幾個點齁能不能在一個月之內給我們一個書面的報告針對我講的包含這個階段性的資訊公告還有一個所謂的一個調閱平台的部分我們是不是做一個研究好不好沒問題啊沒問題一個月之內給我一個報告好不好沒問題沒問題好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝徐副國務委員現在請廖先祥委員執行"},{"start":9557.298,"end":9566.555,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 麻煩邀請我們林主委好 應安會林主委阿維好主委好 這剛剛"},{"start":9568.768,"end":9597.327,"text":"我剛剛聽到這個林俊憲委員的這個詢答啦那有提到說可能台鐵發生事故的時候那都會說等運安會的人來到現場所以等了一些時間其實我自己本身有這樣子的一個經驗啦在之前有一次連假的時候那也是在大概在平溪縣的時候有一個出軌啦出軌的事情那他們也是用這樣子的方式回答我說要等到運安會的人到了現場把該採集的資料採集了完了之後他們的工程單位的人員才能夠去做"},{"start":9598.067,"end":9619.837,"text":"後續的一個搶救跟復救的一個工作當然等我們的人來我們這個可能在上班日或者是連假的時候我們人員到達的時間總是比較沒有一定因為我們畢竟不是像他們那種大的單位隨時都有人駐守那我想確認一下我們運安會針對各項的事故那可能尤其是公路的運輸或者是鐵道運輸這個可能會比較影響到這個"},{"start":9623.739,"end":9631.888,"text":"通勤 民眾通勤的一些問題我們有沒有在不同的時段要求我們的同仁抵達的一個時間的限制就自通報期"},{"start":9634.189,"end":9659.443,"text":"事實上我們有24小時在值班你們都24小時值班我們一通報就是第一時間就同仁如果是下班時間馬上就會調回來所以各組也都會有都有各組24小時值班我們運安會有一個24小時值班人員值班人員就負責通報所以航空的水路鐵道什麼就通報各調查組的人該回來所以休息的時候就會把他們Call回來沒有錯"},{"start":9660.504,"end":9666.442,"text":"包括他們休息的時候我們也都會有待命的就是說我們雖然是休息但是可能也都會有相關的一個"},{"start":9667.421,"end":9692.105,"text":"待命的輪值表就是說如果說在這段休假的期間有需要的話雖然說你休假那我們會優先找誰會有這樣子的一個機制嗎有各組各組放假日長假日都有輪值表就是說你下班你雖然是譬如說前面一節假期嘛四天那你是輪到的你不准離開大台北地區你不可以到南部去有都有那有相關的要求抵達時間的一個要求嗎"},{"start":9693.165,"end":9710.612,"text":"呃最快的速度都會快最快了都是一到就包計程車就過去因為可能台鐵都會說我們的人先到了但是運航位的人還沒到我想這個這個是誤傳誤傳好好那沒關係我們現場調查總是要一些時間啊我想有時候呃各自單位會有不同的立場啊那"},{"start":9712.032,"end":9739.418,"text":"指責別的單位都是最容易的那就是可能之後在相關的摩擦或者說在怎樣的情況下我們台鐵能夠做哪一些預制的準備動作可能在等我們運安會在調查的時候人員到達前或者是調查過程收證的過程中我們來一些處置桌子有時候我們也可以跟那些比較頻繁發生事故的單位有一些在時程上面的一些合作的模式希望說我們後面能夠多一些協調少一點摩擦這樣子是因為"},{"start":9742.045,"end":9763.128,"text":"因為我們最快的時間尤其是鐵路因為他很快就要復舊要恢復他的運轉我們會最快的時間去事實上還有一個原因就是我們最快的時間去會把證據流失我們要蒐集證據我們要帶著儀器不是空手去我們要帶著儀器有的儀器是重型的有的時候是輕型的不一定要看case by case"},{"start":9763.288,"end":9782.023,"text":"是好那就後續再麻煩是謝謝委員長那另外啊再看我們的這個今天的報告啊因為之前去年有一個那個入籍的船隻嘛那在野柳外海擱淺嘛那我就看了一下我們後面針對各個單位啊針對各個單位我們預案會提出的缺失未改正的一些統計表我們發現"},{"start":9784.265,"end":9812.942,"text":"有些單位跟其他單位落差的還蠻大的包括航港局他的總案件數就是自己一個人高高在上這樣子那三年以上的雖然說案件數沒那麼高但是台鐵這個單位確實也比其他單位的數量明顯的增加了許多我不曉得我們實際上在跟這兩個單位在溝通的時候我們是提出了哪些東西讓他們好像沒有辦法達成有沒有辦法做一些減要的概述"},{"start":9813.629,"end":9834.088,"text":"可能今年到了這個我們颱風季要如果說有任何的水域發生事故的話對我們的漁民大家都是非常擔心的啦我們也是希望說避免那看到這樣子的一個未達成缺失的一個案件統計大家真的還是會比較擔心的能不能針對這兩個單位的缺失狀況跟大家說明一下"},{"start":9836.892,"end":9863.942,"text":"呃有些單位像台鐵台鐵他的被安全感他的那個項目裡面的設計台鐵的組織要調整譬如說他要安裝這個駕駛式的影音記錄器設置等等他要設計法規的修訂等等所以這些對台鐵來講就是屬於就是他幾十年來沒做突然要做他需要制度面甚至他必須要跟同仁所以跟經費有關嗎還是單純管理面的問題"},{"start":9864.859,"end":9887.886,"text":"有的是經費有的是管理面有的是觀念的溝通好那可不可以會後就是針對台鐵的這五項的缺失我們三年以上的沒有改善的這五項具體的一個項目我們的可能給他們的資料也給我們也給我辦公室或者是給交委會一份這樣子沒問題那另外港港局的部分20多件"},{"start":9889.667,"end":9904.844,"text":"香港局齁都是飲水人的這個安全管理的問題飲水人辦事處啊 強制飲水區啊或者是這個VTS系統的整個制度內的改善等等他也是長期以來所累積出來的問題所以他需要較多時間"},{"start":9905.805,"end":9935.218,"text":"所以就是長期累積的問題所以這個算是岸上管裡面的問題還是航行上面的一些管裡面的問題都有但是最主要還是在岸上這邊的問題岸上這邊的問題嗎那陸籍的船隻的這個部分我們預計五月提這個會有先會有一個中期的一個報告算是一個中期的報告嘛那年底的時候會有一個完整的報告那在這段時間那大家當然還是會擔心啦那有沒有部分的東西是可以先立即要求航港局去做改善的"},{"start":9936.501,"end":9958.408,"text":"我們可以給委員一些資料就是說他有分階段分期之後我們可以把資料給委員參考就是分階段就出判的時候就會有一些可能希望他們改善的項目然後中期的時候5月的這份報告也會有部分的改項目包括最後期末的時候今年年底的部分也會有一些具體的改項目是這樣子分階段嗎"},{"start":9959.488,"end":9985.078,"text":"都沒有說分短中長期的但是我們調查報告過程調查過程中是就如我剛剛講他有有譬如說事實資料報告然後調查期限當前通告等等那這些過程中因為水路單位 港港局 港務公司 交通部因為每一個調查案都是屬於參與式調查他們都有派員來參與所以他們在參與的過程中就會知道他們都已經知道都會知道嘛"},{"start":9985.458,"end":10004.782,"text":"所以很多調查案到我們最終調查報告出來之後然後提出安全改善建議結果他安全改善一下就提出來因為他過程中已經開始在做了那到目前野柳的這個個案我們目前所認定可能最大的為師會是在哪一邊就是需要最具體改善的項目"},{"start":10005.762,"end":10030.364,"text":"就是我剛剛講制度沒有就飲水人的問題嘛飲水辦事處的問題等等嘛那有沒有具體的就是哪的這個制度的哪個問題有就是他飲水瓦他要蓋嘛他修飲水瓦花很多時間他已經花了一兩年的時間因為那個是一個很大的一個花有沒有辦法用比較白畫的方式就是可能他造成這次事故最主要的原因啦白畫一點好我請水路組調查一下因為他比較細好"},{"start":10033.089,"end":10052.197,"text":"有關於那個是玉洲起航他從基隆港離開那個時候剛好是颱風他去避颱他到廣東的附近避颱這個避颱的過程中因為外面的颱風外圍環流非常的強烈所以他沒辦法順利的到達他的目的去避航"},{"start":10052.617,"end":10077.997,"text":"那這中間他就被這個強烈的風就吹到這個就是這個岸上擱淺那這個案子呢他最主要的事就是剛好談到他避台他如果去因為他是在這個港區裡面碰到颱風的時候我如果及時讓這條船出去但是他之前又破有個案子他把兩個這個他把一個喬斯基給推倒自己喬斯基也壞掉"},{"start":10078.557,"end":10095.396,"text":"所以這個案子本身又要賠償他談賠償需要時間所以這個賠償的時間也耽擱到這個後面的離港時間所以是一連串的包括是在港區裡面他什麼時候要離開港區需要飲水人所以剛剛我們主委提到這個飲水人的事情"},{"start":10095.956,"end":10114.715,"text":"所以就是說這是一連串的事情就在一起到最後他就沒辦法這個順利這個去避台所以這中間呢我們就牽涉到的是有飲水欄的啦有這個防台措施啦還有這個這條船呢因為他是擱淺在這個我們的北海岸這附近但是這個時候因為天氣非常不好"},{"start":10115.356,"end":10131.48,"text":"它雖然是一條非常大的救難船但是我們國內目前其實並沒有這麼大型的救難船已經知道它會擱淺但是它還沒擱淺之前能不能趕快把它抓回來這是一個我們要討論的議題所以後面這個也是我們運安會調查的重點就是事故發生之後處理的緊急應變問題是以上"},{"start":10134.281,"end":10147.489,"text":"好 那就是今年颱風季也要到啦 去年每年都有颱風 那就希望說大家擔心的事情我們能夠督促我們的香港局不要再讓類似的情況再次的發生 再麻煩我們領養會 好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝廖先祥委員現在請蔡其昌副院長執行"},{"start":10165.401,"end":10189.627,"text":"謝謝主席 大家早請林主委好 應安衛林主委主委早這個有兩個議題想跟你分享一下一些意見跟看法第一個大概就是這個剛剛應該今天早上或許應該有委員也問到這個陽梅休息站"},{"start":10192.87,"end":10211.247,"text":"一個分隔島這幾年我隨便查了一下應該好幾起事故都撞這個分隔島今年最新的就是今年的1月25日撞了分隔島結果就有起火造成了傷亡"},{"start":10212.706,"end":10223.452,"text":"主委你大概知道這個事情你們也開始著手進行調查公路組應該有在調查那現在調查的進度是什麼現在調查進度"},{"start":10227.401,"end":10245.828,"text":"跟委員報告那目前我們已經去收集相關的資料並且把這個電動車拖掉到我們的一個消防署的一個場地裡面去做整個車輛電池的一個檢查那我們預計預計會在這個"},{"start":10255.054,"end":10270.957,"text":"七月份的時候會出一個事實資料的一個報告那再來會去做分析跟審查所以最晚會在明年的七月去完成這個調查報告的一個發布好好組長那個你你"},{"start":10272.369,"end":10293.781,"text":"那一個分隔島每次撞都是電動車嗎或者是都是含有自動駕駛或者輔助駕駛系統的車子嗎就你們的現行的資料裡面我先不管那個調查最後那個結果跟原因啦就是說以目前可見的這些撞上去的是不是都是電動車輔助駕駛系統的車子"},{"start":10297.506,"end":10309.784,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經收集這個歷次的一個資料那你撞了幾次你現在手上有的資料撞了幾次就那一個分隔島每次都撞那一個"},{"start":10311.893,"end":10326.602,"text":"對 目前有大概比較我今天手上比較掌握的大概有七件七件對 那有一個是遊覽車也撞那一個對 也是撞那這七件裡面的車輛是否都是"},{"start":10327.884,"end":10357.162,"text":"自駕系統 或者有輔助駕駛系統那大概有三件是有開啟那駕駛說他有開啟 先不管他有沒有開啟是不是都是有這樣的車子並不是 還有是一般的車輛也都會去在初步你不覺得很弔詭嗎就一個分隔島撞七次的就你有的資料啦至少他就撞七次了那你會不會覺得這個現在不是七月啦 不談玄學就是"},{"start":10358.837,"end":10379.885,"text":"這裡面的原因我覺得是值得探究因為老是撞這個地方這很怪那當然今年1月這個是有媒體報導是有開啟輔助駕駛系統那本席從這一題裡面我其實很擔憂一個事情科技一直在發展跟進步"},{"start":10381.007,"end":10410.106,"text":"所以未來這個運具當中它所包括以後AI的運用或者等等它勢必會越來越多的對人類看起來更方便但是它的安全性它必須跟因為它的安全性不管你雷達不管你用攝像鏡頭就簡單講現在我們可預知的科技的概念跟體系它基本上跟環境都產生很大的關係"},{"start":10411.287,"end":10437.74,"text":"那我當然不知道這個雲南會調查這個結果是不是因為譬如說標線或者其他的裡面的環境的裝置物讓輔助系統去誤判這個我不知道因為要等你們專家來調查出那個結果但是這個結果啊還要一段時間你7月才公布你所收集到的這些事實狀況那你要再進行調查可能又要一段滿場的時間"},{"start":10439.602,"end":10454.915,"text":"可是這些科技國人同胞每天正在使用輔助駕駛系統大家也逐漸的熟悉而且我相信很多人或許他就很習慣在某一些時段或者某一些路段他就開啟了輔助駕駛系統"},{"start":10457.182,"end":10476.113,"text":"那如果這樣的問題不趕快解決我覺得這個其實是一件蠻令人擔憂的事情蠻令人擔憂因為大家都在做這個事情那我講過它跟環境會有關係嘛因為它是電腦所以它透過雷達透過攝像鏡頭然後讀取快速判讀"},{"start":10476.906,"end":10499.59,"text":"然後這個輔助系統它就會依照這個判讀的結果去做操作但如果這個環境我們沒有辦法細緻的去掌握到特別是一個地方老是撞那裡那這個有一點危險就簡單講就是說下一個會不會又開了如果假設它跟輔助系統的判讀錯誤有關"},{"start":10502.83,"end":10524.461,"text":"那會不會下一個在那個地方開輔助駕駛系統的人又再來一次所以有時候有一些案子它是有急迫性的就是說它可能對你其他運具或載具的這些使用發生事故 大型事故或許你用比較長的時間 因為它不常被發生"},{"start":10527.412,"end":10554.721,"text":"所以或許他時效現場可以容許你做一個比較完整性依照你們的進程跟流程去做調查但是本席比較擔心的是老是撞這裡然後這裡面又有一些是開了輔助系統我不知道這有沒有關聯性但我覺得像這種事情應該是不是有一種機制你們應該要緊述的去做至少把它至少把這個可能性先排除說應該不是"},{"start":10556.899,"end":10573.231,"text":"開輔助系統的問題所以主委你現在懂我在講什麼嗎這個可不可以先來去調查了解或者做一點排除或者讓大家安心或者你警告大家最好這裡不要開輔助系統因為它有可能是原因之一"},{"start":10575.562,"end":10599.047,"text":"對 委員這個分析的非常透徹這個案子的調查重點我們是分成三個組在做一個道路環境分組還有車輛跟紀錄器的分組還有一個操作生涯因素因素其中有關道路環境分組裡面特別講要檢視道路跟它的交通工程設計它是不是符合法規就剛剛委員講的跟我們的方向是一致的"},{"start":10600.058,"end":10624.541,"text":"所以我的意思是說至少你如果沒有你一定要等到這個115年以後才可能把那個調查這是你們預估嘛那可不可以再事先做一點警示或者是狀況的排除就它不是最終報告但優先去把它做一點了解跟讓提醒我覺得這個可不可以"},{"start":10625.423,"end":10646.569,"text":"這個案子我們已經立案調查那過程中我們有跟高空局有在聯絡高空局事實上他已經對這個路口已經開始在看要怎麼改善他已經在研究了所以是不是輔助系統不知道所以我的意思就是說這是攸關人命"},{"start":10647.557,"end":10667.919,"text":"所以我但是我知道你們有程序你們要嚴謹因為你們講的話或許會對社會或者對產業的有一點衝擊對但是我的意思還是老話一句人命無價如果說你說一件案子老是就是就發生過一次可是在你的手上就七次都撞同一個地方"},{"start":10669.398,"end":10694.204,"text":"這件事情我覺得不能夠跟一般的案件等閒失之沒有錯好不好主委你去研究一下看什麼方式去做一點提示提醒或者說確定排除這個應該可不可以提早一下可不可以我們可以研究一下謝謝那第二件齁這個就是我們助理在非安報告裡面早上好像委員有提到這個耳機掉掉到那個椅子那個事情"},{"start":10695.455,"end":10719.484,"text":"所以這個是這樣子 像這些東西第一個我們不可能禁止大家不戴耳機然後你也不可能禁止不戴那種單顆會掉落那種耳機的確是很容易掉落我自己使用的經驗來講 我也常常會不小心就掉落那要不要制定一個系統 因為後來這個案子的處理方式是拆椅子"},{"start":10720.438,"end":10744.366,"text":"就是叫飛機先不要飛因為那個耳機裡面有電池嘛那怕產生危險所以我們叫飛機不要飛航空公司也算負責叫飛機不要飛然後拆椅子拆完之後把那個耳機取出然後裝回去然後再飛那像這種案子啊這個以後我認為他掉落的機率蠻高的"},{"start":10745.267,"end":10760.577,"text":"所以那這個要不要我們來有一套SOP或者使用什麼樣的方式可以來比拆椅子更可以快速排除啦因為你動不動一個不小心掉了那飛機可能一耽誤又一個小時兩個小時甚至更久"},{"start":10761.414,"end":10784.943,"text":"那這個對我們在航空業或者說對旅客的甚至商務的方便性跟效率上面這個都會造成很大的衝擊所以我的看法是第一個不可能叫人家不戴耳機第二個不可能影響飛行安全我們就給他飛了所以我們一定要有第三種選擇就是怎麼樣可以快速排除所以"},{"start":10786.187,"end":10811.401,"text":"運安會是不是找至少國航裡面椅子的設計它有多少種樣態那這些樣態可能如果發生這種情況它掉落的位置在什麼位置有可能可以做什麼樣處理這個是不是可以來做一個SOP或者一個簡單的指引這種東西我們可以來研議看看好不好或是把它綠定出來對就是有建議他們找大家來討論一下看這個因為這個"},{"start":10813.699,"end":10838.845,"text":"諸葛我不知道你有沒有使用啦你應該沒有使用啦像我就是有使用的可能我年紀還算輕啦不知道這沒有老人家的問題啦很多老人家我看他也在用我在公園看到那個老人家在運動的時候他也帶跟我相同的耳機可是我覺得這個耳機真的容易掉真的容易掉像我們家買這種耳機啊最常發生的原因就是掉了一個"},{"start":10840.131,"end":10868.453,"text":"就是小朋友不小心掉了或者我自己又不小心就掉了掉了一顆所以我覺得掉落是會容易會容易發生的事情所以研議一下啦好沒問題我們來先走幾個開會對這個應該不宜拖太久啦看怎麼處理好不好三個月半年內就把他把這個排除的方式有一個指引啦是謝謝好謝謝好謝謝蔡其章副院長"},{"start":10870.546,"end":10890.247,"text":"請遊浩委員執行謝謝 協會主席 那有請主委好 運安會林主委"},{"start":10895.863,"end":10925.103,"text":"委員好主委好剛才在會議之前我們有遇到感謝你誇獎我都對運安會不錯但是主委對於包括會內的業務那我也希望說對於不錯是真的讓我們的運安會不管是人力資源物力來講都能夠充足才能夠對於我們社會各界符合這個期待來展現這個主委的魄力"},{"start":10925.603,"end":10941.246,"text":"那同樣的延續之前我們碰面的時候那時候跟您就教了那這個人力補充的部分啊那從在去年的時候就跟主委有提到那時候跟人事行政總署反映的一個情況想問一下主委目前進度為何"},{"start":10942.23,"end":10959.781,"text":"目前人力因為我們高峰期過了那我們內部當時也在做這個每個調查官的主要專長次要專長那我們也在做這個我們成立一個叫做檢視資源小組就是說在不是那麼專業的Domain Knowledge的情況之下"},{"start":10960.842,"end":10983.043,"text":"因為我們調查的過程有五個階段嘛一個是通報現場直接可以回答我預計在今年或明年有沒有機會能夠來增加人力或是過大變質我們希望這樣子啊那目前人事行政總署的回覆是如何但是我們知道困難度很高如果委員會幫我們push一下我們非常感謝我們當然樂意push啊那目前的話就是回覆來講的話是說沒有辦法嗎"},{"start":10985.558,"end":11006.843,"text":"如果說沒有辦法的話那我們就接著來去質詢人事行政總署看他如何來協助那麼重要的一個單位那這個攸關在整個國內的這個包含運輸安全的改善那我是覺得說必須要讓大家有充足的能力甚至還有充足的一個資源因為這個部分必須要用人才來能夠去決定還有這個所謂調查的結果"},{"start":11007.711,"end":11034.349,"text":"那沒關係那個我還是現在來講目前還沒有人力上面能夠更好的消息那我也希望說要如何能夠協助預案會提高人力的這個部分那我們是希望說能夠有所進展那這樣子我相信也是同仁們的期待那接著要請教一下主委這個預案會我剛才聽國城召委在質詢的時候也提到解凍案可以趕快送那目前來講有準備要送了嗎"},{"start":11035.151,"end":11062.716,"text":"準備要送了 在鎖上 都已經寫得差不多了寫得差不多 對好 那我相信如果說那麼重要的一個解答案我們看到其實在任何的一個預算不管是凍結或者是刪除案我們一定是基於預算的使用我們要為人民勘緊荷包那所以說這個部分不應該成為這個所謂他們在操作大罷免來添柴火的這種題目那尤其是運安會 大家的loading那麼重"},{"start":11063.456,"end":11085.032,"text":"所以是希望說盡快將這個解凍案能夠送交委員會那讓這個過程趕快盡快來加速如果說可以的話我看其實許多的部會其實都已經送了我看如果可以的話運安會早晚也在這邊提出了呼喊跟期待嘛那我是覺得為了同仁啊那不管是行政院這邊給怎麼樣的壓力啊那我是覺得"},{"start":11085.712,"end":11094.186,"text":"基於同仁跟部會機關來講大家的業務來講可以盡快送出的話那在這個月的話是可以完成送出了嗎"},{"start":11101.571,"end":11119.278,"text":"同樣的就是說在上次的話本席在諮詢的時候交通部長他那時候有提到因為當然大家每個同仁在處理的這個報告是非常的多還調查世界也都是重大影響交通運輸安全等等的一些事項才會進行調查又是可能是相關的造成傷亡"},{"start":11119.918,"end":11139.192,"text":"那時候其實在交通部長陳時凱有提到當然說最好的一個時間是希望3到6個月那可是現在目前來講也首先與這個人力的關係那所以幾乎要到1到3年那所以本席想要這個就交部長在這個行政程序法他有一個51條有一個即時性原則"},{"start":11140.012,"end":11158.189,"text":"那如何能夠在運安會的報告在取得重要的一個交通議題的調查中它能夠有階段性的一個資訊揭露機制就是在重大的一些議題上面來講可能初步來講調查的因為同樣的這些許多的事件都是社會大眾所關注矚目的"},{"start":11158.749,"end":11174.637,"text":"那在這個階段性的一個機制 揭露的機制那尤其是大概在三個月內中大事件能夠先有一個初步的一個內容那我想請問一下主委在這個機制上目前的安排進度為何目前這個機制實際上應該還算OK因為每個調查"},{"start":11176.338,"end":11202.199,"text":"事故的案件進行的過程中都會有一個叫做所謂調查期間的安全通告那麼在事實資料報告公布的時候被調查機關的單位他們都有事先因為他參與一次調查嘛從一開始來參與組織婚婚會議啊參與這個研討找證據的時候他們都在裡面所以他們就是我們一邊調查他一邊也在改善他也都知道"},{"start":11202.699,"end":11229.77,"text":"但是最主要是因為運安會他有公信力在那所以說像這樣子未來來講在重大的這種在調查的事件來講那是不是可以在三個月左右在階段性的揭露那運安會可以有這樣子的機制來回應我們有一個新聞發布的一個處理重要點如果在某一個階段裡面這個案子是屬於社會重大關注的案子那我們會事實被揭露出去"},{"start":11230.56,"end":11248.67,"text":"那所以說時間上的話大概是什麼時候它不一定它是每個case都不太一樣那我本席在這裡是希望願會如果社會關注有重大事件其實這個大家都能夠可受公平的那在三個月左右的話能夠有一個初步揭露讓同仁能夠把重點先做一個社會的回應這樣子可以達到嗎這個是可以做得到的OK好"},{"start":11249.25,"end":11272.764,"text":"那接下來剛才許多委員都針對ADAS的這種先進駕駛輔助系統還在進行諮詢那本市長要接著問在這個包括後面的一個調查報告要改善的一些過程中那前端在調查資料的時候這些民間的車廠或是他們提供資訊或是配合調查的一個情況有沒有遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":11274.97,"end":11299.91,"text":"目前還沒有耶所以這些車廠或是民間業者原則上都會配合運安會那在機關的平行聯繫上面來講有時候需要進入約談一些可能要訪談的對象或者是甚至有一些相關的一些技術面的部分甚至有涉及到司法檢調的部分他們也都全力配合運安會嗎目前都OK的都全力配合好那沒關係那我覺得要就教就是"},{"start":11300.771,"end":11326.409,"text":"那各模組尚未完成改善建議的這個部分就這個列表的部分那其實運安會有時候都要承擔一些比較吃虧的就是做出了許多改善建議建議事項那他可能受建議單位不僅是交通部可能包含各部會可能包含縣市政府那他們在配合運安會受建議的改善建議內容他的執行情況如何"},{"start":11328.929,"end":11349.92,"text":"這一兩年確實是那個完成率提高很大大概有10%到15%左右可以配合運安會嘛那在於各部會來講的話哪一個部會的配合率最高哪一個部會的配合率難度相較來講也高都還不錯啊交通部最高嗎"},{"start":11351.329,"end":11370.345,"text":"交通部就底下就還 你是走部本部還是底下高空局當然是涵蓋啊涵蓋都OK啊好啦沒關係在這裡不要讓你得罪其他部會那本席還是在這裡要提出啦就是還是要建議運安會能夠跟行政院這邊溝通就許多的一個改善建議的單位啊"},{"start":11370.845,"end":11388.67,"text":"他們現在來講在運安會所提出的建議啊那如果他們沒有辦法去配合完成或是他時間有時候配合到修法他需要曠日廢時或是有時候需要配合到計畫的經費來去做類似像機場的改道標籤的設置甚至塔台的重新的調整或是甚至路線的修改那可能曠日廢時"},{"start":11389.85,"end":11404.162,"text":"但是沒有辦法結案的這個部分其實都還是列在這個運安會上面那所以說本席還是在這裡先提出就是運安會可以跟行政院還是看如何能夠讓各個部會來配合運安會的一個改善建議那來打"},{"start":11406.164,"end":11429.46,"text":"提高這個諮詢率啊不然的話院會畢竟許多的專家學者不管是技術或者是法規但是如果說能夠配合來去修正的進度或者是這個比例來講不夠高的話那其實是非常可惜啊那所以本身還是建議就是主委這邊再加強與其他部會的溝通那至於說其他部會的諮詢率的狀況我下次再跟你談好"},{"start":11430.458,"end":11448.935,"text":"其他部位其實並不多耶大概都是交通部比較多對啊大部分因為主要是交通事故啊但是裡面其實有涉及到國防部啊有涉及到內政部等等的也都有啊那所以說這個相關他們要改善的一個情況那如何能夠提高這個比例跟他的實效性"},{"start":11449.855,"end":11478.835,"text":"這個行政院每定期都有開一個協調會多久開一次大概半年因為我們會報到他們去嘛那我坦白講半年一次這個間隔太長我坦白講那我很希望說下次可以溝通至少三個月要開一次那不斷縮短吧因為這個畢竟這些重大事故的改善建議都是大家心血的結晶那這個也是必須要改善的事那行政院都有完全在掌握啦要掌握得好"},{"start":11479.655,"end":11487.824,"text":"好 OK 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝優浩委員請邱若驊委員執行好 謝謝主席 主席請林主委好 應安委林主委"},{"start":11504.912,"end":11516.719,"text":"主委好主委我們先來看到台鐵台鐵的部分那我們先來看到台鐵根據台鐵的資料那台鐵目前營運的它的軌道網路它的全長大概是1065公里那從110年的1億5493萬人次那逐年成長到113年的2億3707萬人次那它成長的幅度很可觀"},{"start":11528.647,"end":11536.333,"text":"那我們先看到它全線總共有242座車站那現有的鐵路車輛有4709輛那其中它的牽引用的機車有245輛客車有2973輛貨車有1491輛那由此可見啊 台鐵是無國籍為重要的大眾運輸系統那本席就近期台鐵連續發生多起事故請教主委"},{"start":11556.667,"end":11578.472,"text":"那我們來看到最近有發生無起吊車作業有關的意外事故那首先我們來看到113年12月19號在花蓮他花蓮幾乎斷發生洗車線出軌事件那同一天呢在潮州潮州的基地列車他衝撞他撞了子沖檔的事件那在今年的1月3號"},{"start":11580.219,"end":11589.009,"text":"那E500型的自強號在歧獨吊車場他吊車的時候作業的時候發生出軌然後造成8個轉車器損毀那情況相當的嚴重8個轉車器都壓爛了那今年的2月11號呢"},{"start":11596.016,"end":11621.412,"text":"也一樣是潮州集體他吊車的機車與PP自強號發生碰撞那我們看到2月18號在七堵吊車作業發生疏失同樣的他的轉換器都被列車壓爛了那主委台鐵在短短兩個月內發生五起重大吊車意外事故那可見他在吊車的安全作業管理上可能存在問題主委針對這些事故 醫院會有做調查嗎"},{"start":11624.117,"end":11627.006,"text":"這七個案子都調查了裡面說的"},{"start":11631.433,"end":11656.728,"text":"跟委員報告 吊車案件在我們的法規規定不是我們調查的範圍但是因為我們有發現到陳獨剛委員提到的他在短期之內發生的頻率過高所以我們在今年1月3號發生的七堵站這個出軌事故我們就使用這個霸王條款立案調查那也徹底利用這個案子針對於台鐵目前吊車的狀況包括他的規定管理等等那進行調查"},{"start":11657.248,"end":11679.358,"text":"所以這五個事故案件中只有調查一件嗎目前就是以緝毒案這件調查那他目前調查進度公委員報告這個案子我們目前預計在今年的7月發布事實資料報告那會在明年的1月前發布最終調查報告我們用最短的時間把這個報告完成"},{"start":11679.878,"end":11688.892,"text":"OK好謝謝您的說明那我們可以說我們可以看到那很顯然的台鐵在他的安全管理上面存在問題那這邊院會是不是要介入"},{"start":11691.035,"end":11717.605,"text":"來調查針對這次台鐵他們在半年內發生這麼多起事故因為院安會只調查一件可是他卻很頻繁的那每次看到都是在在七堵然後同樣的是在潮州我們可以類似的案子我們可以去把他追出來然後一次告訴他說你這個類似案子這麼多就像電動車當時也是一樣就類似的一起調查這樣"},{"start":11718.985,"end":11741.746,"text":"是可以這樣做是可以這樣做嗎那院會什麼時候會介入調查當然我們也會跟台磊溝通嘛我會一直關注他他就會有壓力好那另外請教主委一個問題那鐵道局在2月14號的時候他也針對冒進號車還有推行運轉推進運轉還有吊車吊車時未採取必要之防護措施還有"},{"start":11742.987,"end":11763.854,"text":"同一避涉區間同時運轉兩列以上的列車的問題表示他會加強他的執法力度以強化運轉安全所以你認為鐵道局他這樣的這一次他的加強執法作為足以改善台鐵他們在調度上面管理長期存在的問題嗎確實是有有一些問題你要不要請鐵道組長來答一下"},{"start":11767.32,"end":11793.269,"text":"有關於監理機關對於營運機構他所施予的這一些管理措施那原則上只要能夠改善這個鐵道安全那我們都樂觀其成那我們也尊重監理機關的做法本席認為國家運輸安全應該要主動的積極來協助各級政府他們還有機關他們機構並且幫助他們預防事故的發生那本席在這邊想要向主委反映一個具體的情況我們先來看到影片"},{"start":11796.101,"end":11808.781,"text":"我們來看一下我們上山列車山西那就是他現在位置等一下位置然後等一下他上山之後他的山西會不會變幽靈列車我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車先來看"},{"start":11812.541,"end":11827.156,"text":"出不見了一股、二股、三股、九股、一股還有車,還有車不見了,但他不到時候就沒了,他要去叫路到那個基地喔沒了,就這樣"},{"start":11828.43,"end":11855.841,"text":"這是發生在一樣是台鐵潮州站那今年3月20號那畫面中我們可以很清楚的看到列車明明還在月台上可是他列車運行的狀況他的監視器的畫面卻沒有顯示那該號次的列車還有他相關的資訊那這個車子後他後續也有進到潮州基地進行檢測作業那照道理說這個列車運行的監視狀況應該要如實反映他的位置還有編號所以您怎麼看"},{"start":11861.673,"end":11875.9,"text":"報告委員 剛剛看了這個影片之後因為我們目前沒有收到這一個案子的通報也沒有相關的資訊那是不是懇請委員可以讓我們回去我們再跟台鐵要相關的資料進行仔細的了解"},{"start":11876.62,"end":11895.176,"text":"OK請 請院會務必要調查因為這個情況非常的嚴重那主委本席請教您您過去是有擔任民航機關的首長那對於飛行安全事故有高度的專業那還有經驗是飛安領域的專家因此本席想要請教主委那如果雷達上民航機突然出現"},{"start":11896.757,"end":11919.596,"text":"訊號消失這個問題是不是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重那我們剛才看到影片是不是同樣一樣這個這個我們同樣的情況要去關注他對那什麼時候院會什麼時候會介入調查什麼時候會向台鐵來做瞭解我們回去馬上做回去馬上做OK那預計他調查的時間要多長有點"},{"start":11922.686,"end":11938.96,"text":"包委員那我等一下回去立刻跟台鐵索取相關的資料那我們來研判整個就是事故的內容有沒有達到我們立案標準那不管有沒有立案調查我們都會針對這件事情做仔細的了解請再提供本席就是相關的調查資料沒有問題准辦"},{"start":11940.001,"end":11967.618,"text":"是 那主委我們剛才看到這影片它就像飛機的擂台一樣 它突然的消失了明明列車還在月台上面可是在它的監控畫面我們卻看不到相關的資訊所以請優安會務必要正視這個情形我們正視 我們正視 確實沒有錯如果沒有及時掌握的話這可能會危及乘客的安全對我們不希望發生事故有發生就是傷及民眾的人身安全還是就是生命財產安全危害到然後我們才來做調查"},{"start":11968.599,"end":11994.373,"text":"OK 請院會要積極謝謝主委謝謝主席好 謝謝邱若驊委員請黃建豪委員執行好 謝謝主席 主席我們請院會主委林主委好 林主委"},{"start":12000.111,"end":12023.03,"text":"主委好 主委這個今天針對運安會部分本席有一個疑問我想剛剛前面有一個委員提到說就是列管的改善事故台鐵被列管的改善事件裡面有一項包含就是說列車駕駛是能不能依照運安會的調查報告要求來安裝聲音影像的紀錄器這部分剛好今天我也看到一個報導我想確認一下這今天報導我知道運安會知不知道"},{"start":12024.551,"end":12052,"text":"雙鐵的狀況多那交通部長也希望說價值上能夠裝監視器那我想請教一下因為這個案子我想從當年從這個普悠瑪事故之後107年到現在今天這麼多年了那我想你們在去年也提出了相關的修法的一個方向那我想問一下到底目前的狀況卡在哪裡那為什麼後來又被退回來是不是公會的反彈還是有哪裡公眾出現問題所以導致這個檢討報告到目前為止雖然提出了檢討但是實際上"},{"start":12053.661,"end":12076.734,"text":"好像要在這個駕駛室來安裝相關的監視影像系統好像有困難是不是主委我們的建議是給鐵道局那鐵道局他當然他有他的考量他跟公衛這邊跟台鐵公衛這邊他們有在溝通他裝這個影音或者是攝影機的這個建議事實上是"},{"start":12077.794,"end":12092.923,"text":"事實上是可以可以兼顧個人隱私可以兼顧公共藝術安全兩者都可以兼顧的啦可以達到雙贏的主要你可以有沒有機會在這邊說明一下要怎麼樣做到兼顧的這部分因為當然就我們的了解啦其實國外其他"},{"start":12093.923,"end":12117.888,"text":"像比如說法國或比如說日本等等的這些鐵道也發展成發達的國家他們的架子是也是安裝那到底當初他們怎麼溝通或是說他們的做法怎麼樣那在這一次的因為在這個檢討報告裡面你沒有特別提到說怎麼樣面對這個有時候這些工會的成員他們要求所謂隱私的問題那主委你有沒有機會在這邊講一下到底要怎麼樣兼顧安全跟兼顧隱私的部分各位請主委說明"},{"start":12118.716,"end":12139.675,"text":"事實上裝這個記錄器 影音或者是聲音或者是影像的記錄器這個他的目的是要為了事故調查嘛那平常平常沒有人會去看因為他只有錄音錄影就是兩小時嘛那兩小時過後之後他就會覆蓋上去 覆蓋上去那國外或者是我們國內像"},{"start":12141.056,"end":12166.393,"text":"像我所了解的像桃園集結他就有裝嘛所以說他裝那個攝像機的那個鏡頭角度什麼他只是局部要有一個角度的限制何況裝了之後要去解讀要把它download下來的人還有一定規範的限制並不是任何人可以去看的所以對個人隱私個人各自方面他是應該是"},{"start":12168.164,"end":12184.915,"text":"應該是不會有這個議題但是我們想說鐵炮局他也知道這個要因為這是長久以來這麼幾十年來的要突然這樣改變市紀委員公會他們可能有一些觀念要需要鐵炮局跟他們溝通主委謝謝說明因為這個我想"},{"start":12186.897,"end":12204.931,"text":"這段時間來我想不管是剛剛這麼多委員提到是剛剛十幾位委員大家都提到說最近這個雙鐵的不管是台鐵高鐵都好都是的確都有些駕駛個人的問題導致失誤的發生那當然民眾一個這個高鐵或一個台鐵上面的民眾幾百人在上面"},{"start":12205.632,"end":12220.515,"text":"所以如果能夠確實的掌握到如果萬一出狀況能夠事後來究責知道真實原因在哪裡我想對民眾的安全也是非常重要那當然知道說你們在第一線溝通的時候的確我遇到工會有些反彈但是我們希望你能夠把"},{"start":12221.71,"end":12248.4,"text":"其他國家或其他的這個案例明確的能夠執行的方案能夠提出來來降低這個反彈的聲音要不然如果是僵在這邊你看從107年發生調查完到現在已經又過了這個6年的時間了6年7年時間那中間也發生了其他的事故那這意外發生一次之後都是很多的人命的所以我希望說這個院會能夠去加強跟鐵道局也好或跟工會工會是你們溝通嗎還是鐵道局溝通你們只負責調查而已"},{"start":12249.02,"end":12268.948,"text":"鐵道局溝通嗎我們是建議鐵道局可以譬如說他們可以去就剛剛委員講的去國外去美國去加拿大他們都有這個綠定去觀摩可以找公會的人一起去看不是他想像中這樣子完全是保護個人的國外這部分其他國家的執行案例是由你們提供還是鐵道局自己去考察"},{"start":12270.184,"end":12291.738,"text":"我說其他國家的案例其他國家怎麼執行這件事情的案例是由你們越南會來提供相關的幕僚資料給鐵道局給交通部還是要由交通部他們自己去調查國外的做法我們有提供資料給他們他們就會去做審備他們去看好謝謝主委那後續等交通部來我再問他那接下來這個"},{"start":12294.195,"end":12318.564,"text":"今年2月有修訂的運輸事故調查法來擴大了重大運輸的這個事故範圍那包含了大家很關心的是電動車啦自動駕駛等等的案例列入但是我要跟主委請教的是說從過去幾年立案調查數量來講的話因為你們應該會有分組嘛航空水路鐵道公路那過去這幾年從2018年的數據到現在來講相對來講公路的立案調查數量是最少的"},{"start":12319.444,"end":12334.813,"text":"當然有可能是因為公路的過去的定義比較嚴格或是公路的這個真的屬於重大事故的案例沒這麼多這當然有可能是數據上呈現的結果是這樣子那問題是說你今年二月把這個所謂的電動車也好自動駕駛的這個先進輔助駕駛的系統列入事故調查範圍之後"},{"start":12336.894,"end":12363.02,"text":"這就等於是公路組的業務嘛那你在這個事情上既然把它入法了那我想問一下你的人事分配上面你的公路組有提升嗎還是用G有的人力會不會遇到人力不足的問題主委你講到重點啦就是因為現在新興硬具或者是一些校車電動車出來我們要調查所以公路組現在我們就把其他組都調人力過去再訓練"},{"start":12364.161,"end":12371.173,"text":"確實是這樣子沒有錯主委我想跟你確認一下你是說因為你本來是分四組嘛那當然各自有各自的專業你比如說我懂航空的人"},{"start":12372.413,"end":12393.663,"text":"過去調查的是這個空難的問題或是非常安全的問題來調查那你現在如果公路的量能要提升你們不是重新招考還是直接內部直接調動而已我們雙管旗下重新我們有缺從外面招進來然後另外我們把鐵套組一個調查官的缺調過去所以你們是緣而有變動嘛那人呢我是講就是"},{"start":12394.727,"end":12416.277,"text":"原格當然會變動嘛原格變動沒問題那我講的是專業人才的部分我們擔心的是專業人今天因為你今天既然二月提了二月到現在也才兩月而已啦其實也是蠻近的我只要講說公路組在這部分的專業的部分人是有沒有提升還有另外一件事情是剛好昨天這個教育委員會在修水AIG本法那未來包含自駕車也好或是包含這個駕駛輔助系統"},{"start":12417.918,"end":12441.032,"text":"可能也都是列在所謂AI基本法的這個狀況裡面所以我要問的是運安會有沒有隨著科技的進步去應聘 聘用更多類似的相關專業人才因為這個公路的定義它不是在過去這樣子因為過去可能就是真的是大型的可能遊覽車事故啦或是大型的這種交通事故才是歸你們調查那未來會不會有這個問題"},{"start":12441.892,"end":12468.49,"text":"不會 其實剛剛委員講的其實不是只有公路我們其他調查組我們從外面新併進來的考題裡面我們都會跟他講說你對AI的這個都會注入這個議題裡面所以我們也跟著時代科技在進步在與時並進那剛剛講到我們公路組就是因為有些信息抑鬱的事故的發生的案子的增加所以我們人一直在"},{"start":12469.19,"end":12482.491,"text":"所以現在我們四個調查模組裡面就是公共家族人最多啊公共組人最多嗎對 因為他的案子會越來越多對啊 我就想擔心這個事情那最後因為時間不夠我最後再跟主委提醒一下我們看到一些數據喔"},{"start":12484,"end":12506.542,"text":"這之前的絕賺報告裡面有人提醒到說這個運營會的這個剩餘的經費裡面來講最主要都來自於人事費的結餘那我要給主委一個提醒是說像民航局他們在出勤在各項的這個報案說測試等等的民航局是有一個標準每小時支付多少的金額給這些所謂的這個工作人員"},{"start":12508.183,"end":12537.142,"text":"我剛提到運安會這部分因為現在既然有所謂新的科技進來那你公務組也要提升相關的人才那你們每年的這個人事費的剩餘也這麼多相對比較多啦這是決算報告裡面提出的這個提醒那我們期待說如果後續在這公務上面你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的終點費的支給表讓真正專業人才能夠替運安會在調查過程裡面來服務主委有沒有可能做到這件事情這個我們的研究看看"},{"start":12538.055,"end":12545.317,"text":"你研究完什麼時候研究要研究多久我也就看看因為究竟不太一樣因為他們就有一點類似灰心蝦子的味道"},{"start":12546.656,"end":12574.598,"text":"對啊但是今天你們這個你們今天這麼多這個因為你們其實我講真的我剛剛有一個時間沒有講到就是你們人事的這個流動率相對還是比較高啦我們當然希望你們留才啦你既然剩這麼多錢我說你每年都剩這麼多這個經費我們當然期待說彈性運用嘛你要幫人才願意幫你做事情那我覺得相關的這個支付的這個標準應該要定出來不要說都是臨時薪水那大家當然算了下來大家就往航空公司跑或往其他外面的公司跑了嘛"},{"start":12574.758,"end":12594.543,"text":"那我們期待說預案會是我們我國唯一的專業的獨立機構在調查這種安全事故那你的人才如果能夠留下來透過我剛提到的像參考民調局的方式我覺得對這些專業人才來講能夠有個佳績你留才才有這個方向不然你這麼多人是不是要做什麼 主委"},{"start":12595.39,"end":12608.079,"text":"我們也希望這樣做但是有相關的規範我們還是要研擬研擬看看啦你提出來我們才能夠研擬你要提出來案子我們才能討論嘛好不好主委你回去研究一下啦可不可以好我們去看看好主委謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":12612.485,"end":12634.951,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在高金樹梅委員高金樹梅委員高金樹梅委員不在陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在"},{"start":12636.131,"end":12657.591,"text":"葉延之現在請葉延之委員執行請那個主委好 應安會林主委"},{"start":12663.765,"end":12681.672,"text":"問一個那個飛行安全的問題因為前兩天華航啊被人家發現說他有一架飛機是要飛新加坡結果到了越南的外海呢忽然間又返回台灣然後後來是在那個小港機場降落我不知道這主委知道這事嗎我知道"},{"start":12683.493,"end":12692.67,"text":"現在這個問題被大家拿來質疑點就是說有一個機師過去的機師講說華航是不是有可能他是因為單引擎故障"},{"start":12694.107,"end":12715.024,"text":"那後來看到華航的聲明 華航的聲明是說因為機師是質疑說華航為什麼不是直接飛往新加坡他那時候從越南到新加坡只要一個小時但是華航卻返回台灣 他也多飛了總共飛三小時 等於是多飛兩小時跟飛到新加坡相比"},{"start":12715.905,"end":12736.975,"text":"然後來華航的聲明並沒有否認說他可能是單引擎故障只是講他們是按照標準的作業程序而且經過專業判斷所以回到台灣來做維修我想先跟主委請教一下因為這也跟運輸安全有關啦過去有沒有類似的案例"},{"start":12738.103,"end":12754.604,"text":"就是說那個飛機飛到一半的時候忽然間可能單引擎故障或者是其他故障這個case有很多啦比如說飛機上有突發狀況啦有人生病啦我是說單引擎故障啦單引擎故障單引擎故障有啦有沒有類似案例但是"},{"start":12755.225,"end":12770.993,"text":"但是要轉向哪裡是由機師做最後決定有類似案例我們現在的法規有沒有規定說單引擎故障應該要飛往哪個機場法規有沒有規定沒有民航法沒有規定嗎沒有民航法有沒有規定說"},{"start":12772.394,"end":12794.081,"text":"當發生單引擎故障的時候 應該要飛往途中的備用機場 或者是有沒有規定那你剛用說沒有不是 他飛行計畫裡面 他會填說我在某一個航點某一個位置上 我的備用機場在哪裡 他有填報民航法有沒有規定有規定嗎 主委你都不清楚"},{"start":12795.325,"end":12816.554,"text":"所以民航法有規定說如果發生單引擎故障要飛往目的地盡快飛往目的地或者是途中的備用機場有嗎他飛行計畫都要就停有嗎有那請問一下這個華航的目的地是新加坡對那他在越南的時候去新加坡只要一小時但是回台灣要三小時那這樣有沒有違反民航法規定"},{"start":12819.677,"end":12840.026,"text":"報告委員跟委員報告一下就是一般來講像剛剛林主委講的在飛航途中一定會有一些不正常的情勢發生我是講引擎故障這比較危險的狀況引擎故障這樣子比較高風險的目前在國際航空公司裡面他們都會有一個標準的程序按照民航法然後其中是什麼嘛"},{"start":12841.167,"end":12857.186,"text":"是所謂的inflight shutdown 叫空中引擎關車那在這裡面呢 就航空公司在現在的現行規定裡面航空公司他的聯合管制中心要中整所有的包含四項基本上四項大原則 第一項就是安全"},{"start":12857.907,"end":12873.649,"text":"我知道我現在問說要飛到哪個機場不要答非所問好不好主委已經答非所問換了一個人來又答非所問所以按照規定他是要飛往新加坡還是要在附近越南的備用機場降落還是要回台灣是按照規定是哪一個"},{"start":12875.21,"end":12891.764,"text":"報委員這個要看當時情況因為今天沒有答案沒關係我繼續問那這台飛機是空中巴士嗎350那空中巴士有沒有原廠的規定空中巴士的規定單引擎故障要盡快飛往最近機場是的"},{"start":12892.711,"end":12917.622,"text":"所以如果按照民防法或者是民航法或者是空中巴士感覺上飛回台灣做維修都是蠻奇怪的一件事是不是現在民航局跟我們也在去對那所以你們認為這個有可能因為最後最後是沒有事情啊那那個當然是最好是這樣可是如果萬一發生事情是不是一件算危險的事"},{"start":12918.522,"end":12930.413,"text":"所以過去我不知道說因為聽起來好像你們剛剛一開始主委說過去也有發生類似的事情可是回答好像不清不楚所以好像不是把飛航安全當一回事"},{"start":12932.843,"end":12959.201,"text":"報告委員這個在國際上除了國際航空其他的航空公司也有發生同樣的情況那他們考量除了安全以外還有旅客的舒適度譬如說你講到旅客舒適度我問你啦他今天從台灣已經飛到越南了再一個小時就到新加坡了所以一個小時他就到目的地結果你又飛回來三小時那你覺得對旅客而言他會希望直接飛到新加坡還是飛回台灣如果你是旅客的話"},{"start":12960.839,"end":12979.222,"text":"當然到新加坡當然嘛所以這事情聽起來都是有問題嘛這個如果有機會的話查一下跟大家講第二個我問一下運安衛因為之前有很多委員包括立法院法治局一直講說你們調查的時間太久主要是因為人力不足啦那現在你們有沒有擴充人力啊"},{"start":12980.553,"end":12993.48,"text":"調查案越快出來其實對於比如說事故的當事人家屬或者是後續的一些法律的問題調查報告越快出來對大家來說越能夠心安嗎那我不知道在增加人力的部分裡面有什麼計畫嗎"},{"start":12995.973,"end":13011.918,"text":"我們有要準備擴充整地沒有錯但是現階段我們自己內部先做在一些點地調控總量管理但是如果說我們未來有一些新興的案子出來的時候我們確實會跟人事行政總署來爭取一波"},{"start":13013.018,"end":13040.876,"text":"所以好像你感覺沒有一個很具體的答案沒關係 因為我時間關係我最後一個問題因為剛剛我也有聽別委員也有問您啦因為你們現在是有在辦理那個先進駕駛輔助系統或電動車車上調查所以本來你們重大事務調查的範圍喔是說有一二三點嘛第一點是三人以上你們會調查但是因為有加一個第三點情況特殊或新興運具應該就指的是比如電動車或是有自駕的這種嘛那有一個案例是去年六月份的時候"},{"start":13041.696,"end":13062.45,"text":"那個時候有一個這個虎尾自撞那他應該是開自動車他應該是開電動車啦那你們說這個報告很快就出來了從去年六月事故到今年二月大概半年多一點時間就公佈了那這個現在你們調查報告是有發現先進駕駛輔助系統有什麼問題嗎我請郭路徐問一下"},{"start":13070.848,"end":13092.924,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子其實是在調查中那我們調查中去發現說這個駕駛其實是並沒有去啟動這個ADAS的一個系統是一個駕駛他自己分心操作所造成的所以你們去調查你一開始因為他是電動車所以你就會先去調查"},{"start":13093.604,"end":13121.074,"text":"但是後續發現跟電動車無關你還是會繼續調查然後調查了六到八個月跟大家說跟電動車無關這樣你們調查報告是這樣子嗎跟委員報告你們如果能力不足的話你如果能力不足的話應該把能力放在比較充分的地方啦好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝葉言之委員"},{"start":13122.997,"end":13151.406,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請張祺凱委員執行請安安會林主委好 應安會林主委"},{"start":13154.83,"end":13179.009,"text":"好 各位好 主委最近這四月十三號啊 特訓飛去新加坡這個章魚機場這次飛去出事 已經過了一萬年了我只有兩個非常重要 不只要立案趕快調查第一個你今天要非常明確的宣示 因為人命關天這個事件啊 當初十三號一陣飛機上有181個乘客"},{"start":13183.19,"end":13205.31,"text":"181條人命 還包括所有這個機組員這事情要非常非常的謹慎非常謹慎 而且你們剛剛都提到了 以前都有類似的這個案子嘛這次你要記取教訓 我先跟你講一個最重要的他違反非常多的規定 第一航空器飛行作業管理規則第76條 來 主委你看一下"},{"start":13209.46,"end":13238.4,"text":"如果有發生單邊的發動機失效最久的航行時間是多久六十分鐘對不對它是不是嚴重違反它明明有一個可以在一小時內可以降落的地方而且是它本來設定的目的地耶結果一步就來嚴重違法違反規定再一步就來修改這是第一個非常嚴重的缺失跟違法"},{"start":13239.5,"end":13261.017,"text":"對不對 是不是很嚴重 注意嚴重違法 很嚴重 對不對 這是第一項第二個也很嚴重啊飛機起飛一定有備用機場嘛 對不對 有沒有那天的備用機場在哪 目的地來 目的地是新加坡的章魚機場 那個備用機場那天有幾個"},{"start":13265.472,"end":13282.381,"text":"他有好幾個好幾個備用的這個機場啊台北我去三處了第一個台北第二個香港第三個馬尼拉第四個遠港第五個福寺牆第六個新加坡第七個吉隆坡沒有小港機場啊這個很嚴重啊你最基本的飛行的這個導引"},{"start":13291.107,"end":13314.207,"text":"你之前就做了一個備用機場了你全部都不用你怎麼會跑到小港機場呢這第二 是不是很嚴重對嘛 對不對第三個 剛才你在說國際上怎麼公判呢雙引擎的飛機如果發生單引擎失效第一件事情 其實"},{"start":13315.498,"end":13320.901,"text":"最近的嘛所以最合適的嘛這種卡塔富士也要安全嘛 對不對怎麼連這個最基本的都沒有好那這個國際的這個規範是怎麼規範如果飛機的狀態或者飛行受到影響有可能使得飛機變得不安全馬上就要在最近的地方選擇最近的最合適的馬上就要下來他沒有做這件事情第二"},{"start":13345.962,"end":13368.833,"text":"剩餘的這個燃料不足也要趕快去處理這是另外一個問題了那天的飛機你的燃料夠嗎你本來四個小時的飛機這樣過去對不對你本來預定到新加坡是7點鐘嘛你冒著燃料不足的這個狀況這又是另外一個危險了"},{"start":13372.213,"end":13395.491,"text":"另外一個指引如果天氣或者飛行環境或者附近有可以使用的你就不能飛太遠的地方這些都是國際上的指引嘛所以你看我一路上這樣下來一路練過來這事情嚴不嚴重所以很嚴重對不對是好所以我具體的這個要求我具體的要求第一個應安會"},{"start":13397.992,"end":13420.741,"text":"對這個嚴重的飛航事件要立即做立案的這個調查 這是第一個馬上立案調查OK 主委OK嗎因為這個民調局已經在調查中了我們會請他提供我們的粗暴資料而且今天就應該很嚴正的說明我應該是第一個把你所有的缺失 包括違法違規危險性都講很清楚了"},{"start":13421.84,"end":13447.147,"text":"對不對你認為很危險嘛 對不對所以不只立案調查也要快而且要很嚴正的聲明這種事情不能再發生這攸關人命好不好第二個你要去要求民進黨參照美國聯邦航空條例FAA的這個規定訂出一個更明確的我們今天有些規範啊可是你剛剛一直在講安全的同時你說有國際的這個規範嘛 對不對"},{"start":13449.813,"end":13472.754,"text":"依照FAA定一個更明確的規範跟國際是要接軌的好不好這是第二個可以做嗎可以嗎可以喔第三要求民進黨要盡快對外界的這個餘力要釐清而且做一個明確的規範而且要跟時間賽跑要盡快好不好不然我們現在質詢的心聲有類似的個案又在發生啦好不好"},{"start":13474.075,"end":13497.346,"text":"所以這個案子不要拖延好不好因為這個案子目前在網路上面跟論壇上面引起已經燒起來了啦已經整體燒起來了不要讓這把火再繼續燒了要讓人民可以安心而且做一個有能力解決問題的政府應安會若是說請我去買就說你速度太慢嘛利用這個機會"},{"start":13499.24,"end":13521.836,"text":"跟時間賽跑 做出成績來 好不好保障某一位去搭飛機的人這個安全 好不好是好 這位老店 跟時間賽跑 交換好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員好 謝謝登記委員已軍花言完畢 作以下決定一 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我們開始開會 請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員14人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開始開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期內政委員會第十次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年4月16日星期三上午九時四分至十一時十九分 地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等14人 列席委員林德福委員等16人"},{"start":1925.442,"end":1946.256,"text":"列席官員、客家委員會主任委員古秀菲及相關人員、財團法人、客家公共傳播基金會董事長陳邦整及相關人員、客家電視台台長向聖岩、主席張昭吉委員洪璐。報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄決定、確定。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人、客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務該況並備質詢。"},{"start":1948.217,"end":1949.698,"text":"好 請問各位委員 上次會議事務有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1979.417,"end":2000.795,"text":"好那意思如確定那我們繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況並被質詢宣讀完畢好我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員張志倫委員黃婕委員"},{"start":2008.761,"end":2035.756,"text":"王美惠委員來囉,徐欣怡委員海委會主委管碧玲管主委海巡署副署長張忠榮海洋保育署署長陸曉雲國家海洋研究院副院長李寶欽"},{"start":2039.192,"end":2062.172,"text":"好那現在進行詢問 委員諮詢前原例做幾...為了趕時間 因為今天跟司法聯席請海洋委員會 我們管組委員報告"},{"start":2070.629,"end":2093.137,"text":"各位委員 各位同仁 各位媒體朋友 大家早安今天應邀列席大院內政委員會就主管業務提出報告並被質詢 倍感榮幸敬請委員給予指教賴總統113年國慶演說提到要強化台灣的韌性應對極端氣候風險邁向全球2050年淨零轉型的目標"},{"start":2095.798,"end":2121.06,"text":"所以我们也正遵循行政院所定的国家希望工程的施政目标跟工作重点加速各项海洋事务让国家更安全让台湾航向世界也让世界拥抱台湾那么在今年1月22日我们向国人报告113年海洋治理的四大突破当中我们说明包含了毒品枪弹阻拦倍增"},{"start":2121.761,"end":2138.839,"text":"海洋保育法通过海洋污染防治基金成立以及海洋平权大步向前走除了这四大突破以外我们也首度颁发了海洋文化奖携手地方政府办理海洋素养教育国家传媒实验室动土"},{"start":2139.42,"end":2166.573,"text":"海洋调查船动工以及明定每年11月8日为海巡节张选海巡人员的无私奉献在面对三个墙台侵台造成十余艘民间船只的搁浅我们迅速动员紧急应变尽可能减少对环境的冲击另外也持续落实三岸四海的责任让台湾成为更安全更有韧性的海洋国家"},{"start":2167.253,"end":2187.546,"text":"感謝各位委員的指導與支持以下請就本會近期的重要業務推展跟未來的施政重點則要提出報告首先在堅守三岸捍衛國土的部分我們113年期間應對了4次中國大陸的軍演其中同時發現小目標偷渡都有棄貨"},{"start":2188.627,"end":2208.318,"text":"但是我们也及时的期货了这小目标的偷渡保卫了国家的安全我们完成了三次远洋巡护任务执行26艘次的公海登舰我们于台日及台飞的海域各派遣128及134航次编排东沙巡护65"},{"start":2210.198,"end":2228.693,"text":"南沙巡护31航次驱离违法越界的陆船1671艘次扣留20艘另外接获电信海岸损坏的通报提升层级以国安程序处理我们其中洪泰58切断海岸案"},{"start":2229.213,"end":2248.883,"text":"司法机关业余起诉有关于海域治安的部分我们弃货枪支60支枪弹1647颗各级的毒品10532公斤包括昨天都还有新的毒品被弃货那么农渔蓄产品341,001公斤屍灸136公升以及活体动物达2942支并查获偷渡犯73人"},{"start":2257.848,"end":2277.457,"text":"另外我们也调高了偷渡贩的检举奖金有关入籍的偷渡贩每年检举奖金我们调高为每名五万元有关于本国跟外国籍的话每名是一万元从113年迄今也没有越界盗杀的情势了"},{"start":2278.377,"end":2305.95,"text":"有关于保障国人平安的部分以及油气安全提升的部分我们优化了GoOcean的APP我们投入了3620万元支持32项计划来推动智慧海滩的管理我们并且设立了免费救生仪的借用站执行了救生469人及救难449人有关于守护污染有关于防治污染提升应处能量的部分"},{"start":2306.57,"end":2323.974,"text":"我们现地查核了22处的猎管事业传播646艘次而且充实了10处应变资产的仓库我们总共实兵训练了27个场次扩大稽查猎管事业与港口的污染达3913件次"},{"start":2326.8,"end":2329.482,"text":"我们也设置了牡蛎养殖区的海域水质自动监测站两处"},{"start":2356.722,"end":2384.483,"text":"并且本年还会再加码补助试做那么有关于海费治理的部分我们补助地方政府办理回收渔网及保利龙累计回收344.04公吨其中有247.5公吨有拿来做海费的再利用我们并且强化海费再生联盟的体质累计成长到了66家开发海费高质化的产品达56种"},{"start":2386.064,"end":2397.356,"text":"为了完善科学的佐证在生态保护的部分我们执行了七大类物种的监测调查推估大约有3.6万只的智归孵化"},{"start":2398.971,"end":2421.676,"text":"我们在救援搁浅的鲸豚的部分达208只以及海龟440只审查野生动物的输出入申请案达938件开放友善钓鱼的钓点开放158处我们也结合了20家潜水业者认养了40处的珊瑚礁的棲地"},{"start":2422.296,"end":2444.071,"text":"我們為了要推動海洋保育的ESG我們成立了海洋保育的ESG的媒合平台而且上市上櫃永續發展15守則也已經納入了海洋ESG作為公司評鑑的範例這是一個很大的突破我們多館旗下的也在探索海洋"},{"start":2444.531,"end":2473.219,"text":"国家海洋科技营运中心的设置条例草案宋大院今天也在司法法治委员会联席会议当中审议之中行政院核定我们海洋污染防治基金收支管理及运用办法了之后我们也已经开了第一次的管理会另外我们也发布了海洋污染防治的白皮书在各项工作当中的国际合作海洋科学研究的部分"},{"start":2473.759,"end":2500.645,"text":"我们也跟印度的地球科学部合作跟所属的机构共同的签署MOU并且把国际的OSS教材入校教学总共我们补助了五个地方政府来办理有5621位师生来参与鼓励文化振兴的部分以及推动其他的国际合作的部分还有组织编制的精实以及建立友善职场的部分"},{"start":2501.145,"end":2511.391,"text":"请委员参阅书面资料在自弹期间也都有新的成效出现至于未来施政的重点仅仅要说明我们未来的方向"},{"start":2514.13,"end":2532.501,"text":"未來手中推動的還是我們必須因為是在國家船舶實驗室以及調查船已經在興建的過程當中所以有關於我們的科技營運的中心的這個行政法人今天在司法法治委員會"},{"start":2533.561,"end":2557.796,"text":"審議的這個條例對我們下個階段的工作目標來講至關重要因為相關的公共建設都已經在進行的過程當中這個行政法人必須要趕快的能夠訓練跟禁用專業的人才來進行相關的工作的進行相當的重要所以這個將會是我們下個階段工作當中非常重要的一個重點"},{"start":2558.596,"end":2585.877,"text":"另外在科技服勤强化执法的能量能够保护我们的国安治安与平安的部分为社会舆论非常重视的一块因此我们也在推动海空一体精锐海巡的中长城计划的审议过程当中这也是我们下个阶段这个海空一体的中长城计划的审议将也是我们下一个阶段推动工作当中的重中之重也都持续的在进行相关的会议的审议"},{"start":2586.417,"end":2613.732,"text":"另外有关于民间的力量的投入然后共同的来保护海洋的这个部分也将会是下个阶段的工作重点所以海洋保育的ESG我们有了媒合的平台以后接下来的挑战是我们必须去媒合出更多能够投入海洋保育的民间的企业民间的力量共同的来参与总之展望未来我们会聚焦在以科学为基础的生态保育"},{"start":2614.372,"end":2629.06,"text":"兼顾灾防及国安的海洋科研以及海空一体的精锐海巡三大施政方向容我再重复一遍这三大施政的方向将是以科学为基础的生态保育兼顾灾防及国安的海洋科研"},{"start":2629.58,"end":2643.446,"text":"以及海空一体的精锐海巡这三大施政方向将是我们下个阶段要全力推动的主要的方向以上简要的报告再次感谢委员对于本会的爱护跟指导敬请指教"},{"start":2651.018,"end":2671.881,"text":"好 我們現在進行詢答 委員諮詢前原力做幾點宣告每位委員發言時間 本會議員5加2然後非本會議員5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記那今天就不處理臨時提案各位有沒有什麼意見沒有好 那我們請登記第一位的張志倫委員"},{"start":2683.953,"end":2690.565,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早是有請那個海委會管閉營主委好請管主委"},{"start":2695.475,"end":2724.312,"text":"委員好主委好主委辛苦了首先本席在這邊也代表立法院代表我自己非常感謝我們這個海委會海巡同仁的辛苦跟辛勞那依據這個海委會今天的業務報告第二頁中國大陸的公務船舶軍艦常態性的在我國台灣的周邊海域活動頻繁的進行軍演以及灰色地帶的行動那本席想要請教這個主委的部分"},{"start":2725.342,"end":2754.742,"text":"現在就最近的新聞顯示這個大陸的這個不管是軍艦或是船舶基本上都有靠近我們臺灣的這個海域的24海里那我想要請教我們海巡海委會這邊的想法是說現在是不是很多的這個軍艦都會靠著我們的24海里這邊周邊來去做海警船海警船海警船海警船然後那是不是有些漁船船舶會進到我們的24海里"},{"start":2755.963,"end":2769.693,"text":"我們都在驅離,去年驅離1600多艘次是,那我的意思是說他們現在除了這樣子類似有點軍事演習跟這些公務的傳播的巡弋以外是不是還有在做其他的灰色地帶的形式的"},{"start":2772.054,"end":2794.449,"text":"謝謝委員跟委員報告除了軍演以外那另外就是平常除了海警船其實各類的公務船也都有襲擾的行動包括他們的海事的船舶另外是科研船尤其是科研船的評次也非常的高甚至於有一些比較機敏的拖船那另外跟委員報告我們也掌握了某種程度也掌握了他們的民兵船的活動"},{"start":2796.43,"end":2811.555,"text":"所以我們對於這些船舶的掌握其實是非常的複雜非常的龐雜那另外就是說我們目前高度密駐的高度密駐的是小目標的偷渡的背後因為他們幾乎就是一個模組了"},{"start":2812.475,"end":2829.58,"text":"所以小目標的偷渡尤其是高度的扣合者軍演每一次的軍演過去的4次的軍演每一次的軍演在當天的早上或者是前一天的晚上等等都有小目標的偷渡進來所以那個高度的扣合我們也在密注"},{"start":2834.284,"end":2853.34,"text":"主委現在也講到我剛剛下一個問題所以現在不管大陸的灰色地帶行動其實我認為海巡跟海委會其實很認真不管在情報蒐集巡邏部署跟跨部會協調部分都非常的辛苦那我請教這個主委的部分那我們現在"},{"start":2854.381,"end":2869.95,"text":"面臨到這樣的情況我們有沒有想說如何加強跟其他國家比如說日本或美國在我們台灣的海域安全方面的共同的合作共同來因應現在目前大陸在我們台灣海域這樣的擴張行為"},{"start":2872.294,"end":2901.474,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟周邊國家確實有很多多邊的合作那這些多邊的合作就是容我請委員諒解就是說我們會跟委員的辦公室來做公開我們可能就不適合原則上就是說整個印太地區共同的利益這個區域的和平是大家共同的利益另外我們也非常的加重在"},{"start":2902.234,"end":2929.325,"text":"人民的福祉的創造也就是救生救難方面所以無論是國家安全或者是人民的保障這個部分我們都有多邊的合作是好那我請教主委最近一個新聞我相信也是很多人所關注的就是有個新聞是說因為現在很多大陸相關的一些擴張行為包含有大陸的漁船或會掛台灣的這個這個AIS就是識別的系統來去讓這個"},{"start":2931.646,"end":2948.832,"text":"我們的海巡比較難去做一些的識別那剛剛您在報告的時候我好像有聽到不知道是不是您口誤那是不是有台灣的漁船會掛中國的AIS那它的目的為何這個是我剛有聽到這一段是我不知道沒有寫在報告裡面是是真的嗎"},{"start":2949.632,"end":2961.701,"text":"這是一個事實,我們確實是有查獲到台灣的漁船掛中國船舶的假名他的目的為何?應該是在大陸的海域捕魚,或許對他們來講有所方便"},{"start":2968.726,"end":2993.157,"text":"但是我們現在遇到的困擾是說相關於就是在AIS上面的引力或者是這個詐騙吧它的這種訛詐就是在使用AIS上面的訛詐這個部分我們還必須去修傳播法才會有罰則我瞭解 所以現在是無法可管的部分嗎"},{"start":2994.317,"end":3018.733,"text":"呃我們在在相關的管理上面我們當然會有指引會有各種的管理齁但是罰則的部分我們還需要再再再修好那這邊我也希望主委我們盡快提出相關的呃這個是屬於交通部門所以我們跟航港局已經有表達而且雙方也都有有過會議在討論那草案也已經有了目前在呃行政院內部的審議程序之中好謝謝主委修傳播法"},{"start":3019.073,"end":3043.368,"text":"好 那希望說這個相關如果有這樣的情況我相信也是勿往勿中應該有相關的法令來處理這樣的事情那再接下來我請教就是其實我們非常關心海巡這個相關弟兄他們的裝備那之前殿察院的調查報告有顯示這個海巡署在之前我們講的比如說驚嚇事件或無人機的採購上有一些採購跟使用上的一個缺失"},{"start":3044.108,"end":3051.508,"text":"那我想請教現在主委的部分就我所了解之前像這個驚嚇事件的密錄器之前有一些說"},{"start":3053.021,"end":3079.559,"text":"密錄器不足的用手持的一些部分的問題好像已經有改善蠻多的那我想要請教接下來就是說因為海巡的人員非常辛苦所以未來執勤的部分可能會使用類似無人機的一些的方式來去增強這個海巡人員在執勤上面的一些方便性那可是之前的新聞有顯示說有些無人機的部分好像採購的部分其實是沒有辦法因應我們這個台灣海域的有些東北季風的所謂的影響"},{"start":3080.379,"end":3100.596,"text":"所以造成我們的一些無人機的一些損傷的部分那我想要請教主委針對無人機不管是在使用人員有沒有人可以操作跟我們現在無人機的一些整個品質的方面有沒有一些精進的報告或是你們現在做的情況為如何或者說你們未來有沒有考慮要擴大無人機的使用範圍"},{"start":3103.214,"end":3123.321,"text":"增加空中的量能是下個階段海巡發展也是一個重點我剛剛有報告海空一體的中長期計畫裡面確實我們會希望能夠部署無人機過去海巡算是我們國家政府的內部最早採用導入無人機科技的一個機關"},{"start":3124.381,"end":3150.032,"text":"所以它在導入的初期都是第一階段的嘗試因此監察院當時對我們會有一些糾正是因為大家都是初期的經驗這是第一點第二點就是無人機基本上它分很多種類型那其中耐浪性比較不足的這一些的類型呢我們目前當然也有那現在有沒有統整就是說我記得我們現在海巡大概只有幾台的無人機"},{"start":3152.533,"end":3174.923,"text":"20台無人機嘛那現在有沒有幾台也沒有統整出來說哪一些是不耐這些強風的哪一些未來還要再繼續就是還可以耐強風可以來支持未來我們會增加不同形態不同型形態的機型好那就拜託說看說會後是不是可以提供個報告讓我們委員知道說我們現在無人機未來在海巡的這些發展上我們會希望我們"},{"start":3176.324,"end":3202.336,"text":"因為中長堤計畫還沒有被核定所以我們大概就是一個蓋瓜的方向好不好好那最後一個問題實際的關係那其實最重要的就是海委會跟海巡對我們台灣的這個沿岸的防治機制有沒有一些具體的改善措施因為大家最近都知道看到新聞說大陸這個漁船有越界捕魚的情況甚至這個有海警船在我們金門海域活動那我覺得讓這個我們"},{"start":3203.877,"end":3229.859,"text":"台灣人民感覺到之前最震驚的一個新聞事件就是有這個中國籍的男子闖入淡水港的事件那當時是就新聞報導所述就是說因為當時沒有就是說有發現可是不知道這個船是大陸的漁船然後讓這個男子中國籍男子有闖入我們淡水港的事件那後續整個"},{"start":3230.8,"end":3247.274,"text":"我目前看到新聞還有跟海委會所詢問好像這個的防堵機制有沒有一個更完整的一些防堵機制是不是可以諸位各位報告就是說淡水河是人為的疏失但是那個疏失是出在那個判斷"},{"start":3248.155,"end":3275.108,"text":"就是以當時是白天然後直衝而入然後他們從這個整個判斷上把它判斷成是我們的漁船回來沒錯沒錯所以就是說判斷的問題嘛但是有的部分呢它是因為裝備設備的不足但是跟我們報告我剛有報告過你看我們四次軍演四次軍演每天每一次的軍演配合的小目標偷渡我們都抓到那其實很多抓到的並沒有揭露出來"},{"start":3275.808,"end":3304.818,"text":"那基本上我們海巡在這個部分的防守是值得人民信賴主委我想要說的是過去從人為判斷有沒有改變的一些方式是不是可以在這邊稍微跟民眾說明一下第一個我們在岸際我們在岸際的監測的部分我們有加強未來也會更加強那未來加強的部分會需要一點時間但是單獨的個別的熱點的加強的部分我們陸續有在做會比較快"},{"start":3305.849,"end":3328.969,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那大家辛苦了 謝謝好 我們請蘇喬惠委員好 謝謝主席 我們請管主委好 請主委"},{"start":3336.882,"end":3364.002,"text":"主委剛剛您在進入會場的時候議場的時候其實我看到有非常多的媒體記者都在追著你詢問現在大家很關心的這個我們的這個海巡弟兄啊或者上次有說要進行大規模的這個調查了解狀況以後看看部隊裡面是不是也有人有這個中國拘留證的問題你有一個方回答我想請主委在備詢台上是不是正式的跟我們說明一下調查的如何"},{"start":3366.324,"end":3391.918,"text":"後續要怎麼處理好 各位也說明就是說定居證是沒有沒有定居證的沒有定居證所以剛剛說沒有剛剛跟媒體說沒有是定居證沒有那居住證有三位護照也沒有所以護照定居證都沒有但是有三位那這三位你怎麼處置三位是在我們招募之前取得的那已經依法全部都註銷了那會涉及到機敏的業務嗎"},{"start":3396.181,"end":3410.567,"text":"目前他們沒有都沒有嗎我想是這樣國安的問題是絕對不容跨線的所以它在方方面面的處置上面其實我們都要非常的注意這個是我想政府一體大家都是應該要注意的各單位都應該注意"},{"start":3412.268,"end":3418.012,"text":"所以我今天除了剛剛要再讓您說得更清楚一點的這個拘留證的問題之外我也想來談談最近大家討論很多的海底電纜都被破壞 頻頻被破壞的這個部分我想先請問主委主委你知道我們這個台灣周圍很依賴在海底電纜嘛那海底電纜有分通信電纜跟電力電纜兩種我們的通信電纜在有多少"},{"start":3438.708,"end":3441.231,"text":"我們有國際的14條 國內的也有10條 有這麼多的電纜那最近發生的電纜被破壞的事件大概有多少嗎"},{"start":3456.158,"end":3481.915,"text":"呃 數字大概是今年是30年 電力也有一件喔電力有一件對 我沒有要抽考你這種問答題 備答附送的啦資料都在這裡我們是跟速發部調出來的資料速發部給我們的資料是從2021年迄今有三十幾件啦有三十幾件這樣子的狀況喔而且我問他說為什麼沒有2021年之前的我猜想喔 我自己猜想的"},{"start":3482.555,"end":3491.42,"text":"是也許是在2021年之前沒有這麼頻繁發生的狀況所以某程度我們是不是也可以覺得這種發生的頻率已經開始有電纜被破壞的常態化的狀況呢這個數字是速發布給我們的而且我們可以看到每一次這個電纜如果是壞掉的話平均的修復大概就是要2000萬左右那修復的時間還沒有辦法確定"},{"start":3510.189,"end":3526.361,"text":"所以可以看得出來這其實是一個很嚴重的狀況主委你應該了解這個電纜被破壞的狀況嘛而且這個破壞的電纜還是我們請署長回答也可以看哪一個單位就是這個被破壞的狀況看起來都大概是什麼樣的原因發生的"},{"start":3527.461,"end":3556.073,"text":"有第一個有自然的斷裂第二個有也其實也有些案例是漁船意外那我們晚進比較高度密駐的是有一些權宜輪是不是故意那以這一次虹太來講那檢察官初步調查的結果是認為說是有故意我們也認為說我們長達三天監控他然後這中間誰去監控他我們海巡"},{"start":3556.493,"end":3574.501,"text":"是海巡嘛好那我其實這就是今天我最重要的問題我們可以看到這個通信電纜是重要的它的破壞頻率在增高而且破壞的看起來大部分是中國的抽砂船中國的漁船還有當然有其他商船自燃的這樣的狀況"},{"start":3575.501,"end":3586.283,"text":"好 那處理的人是誰第一線處理的都是海巡單位可是這些電纜的主管單位是誰呢這些主管單位我看得出我去調查了一下主管單位海底電纜因為是電信業所以它屬於通船會處理的然後因為海底電纜又是關鍵基礎設施所以其實又歸速發部管那這些船來破壞海底電纜的船是誰呢因為船的出入是屬於交通部航管局所以所有的主管機關都是別人"},{"start":3604.847,"end":3614.779,"text":"可是去第一線處理的是誰是海巡啊我想請署長或者是主委你可不可以跟我們分享一下你們在實務上你們不是主管機關但是卻是第一線的主管單位你們會不會有困難會不會有什麼辛苦在這裡讓你有時間說明一下"},{"start":3620.926,"end":3637.633,"text":"跟委員報告 因此就會有一些狀況是非常需要進一步去做跨部會的合作的譬如說晚進的兩艘船所造成的斷纜事件來講的話那前面的順興99跟後面的宏泰168"},{"start":3638.953,"end":3654.541,"text":"兩艘船的處理程序就不一樣那前面的順興其實他是願意配合我們進港所以他從當天我們抓到他以後他一直配合我們等著要進港就等到第二天的早上他說他們沒辦法再等了"},{"start":3655.021,"end":3671.042,"text":"那這個時候就是跨部會的程序在當時因為它是解編了我們的海底電纜曾經解編成為非關鍵基礎設施所以那個時候它還不是關鍵基礎設施所以它因為一般的程序所以它進港就有困難"},{"start":3672.103,"end":3681.587,"text":"在這種情況之下所以經過這個事件以後我們就把它恢復為關鍵基礎設施我沒有反對它是關鍵基礎設施我只是本來要借用這個單位借用這個時間邀請主委主委剛剛已經講了在法規管理上面的困難張署長我也想請你分享一下你第一線地修會不會有什麼問題吃苦耐勞真的很辛苦"},{"start":3695.914,"end":3710.631,"text":"署長我寫寶貴的時間給你要不要分享一下特別跟委員報告那我們對於海域的監控部門我們還允許適用我們的雷達包括跟友軍的聯合勤監的部門那對於在自由在海岸區域的這些船舶我們會去監控它另外重要的"},{"start":3710.831,"end":3733.49,"text":"畢竟對於海嵐部分它有一個告警的設施那我們根據這個部分我們去第一個時間點我們發現可疑滯留或者是有可能是這個權益輪波我們就會派艦去處理第一時間就會處理所以我們第一時間我們會主動發現可疑我們就去處理這是本於你們權責嘛在海疆上面發現狀況你們就會過去可是過去了以後要處理的時候你的權你的責"},{"start":3734.591,"end":3758.525,"text":"清楚嗎你有辦法處理嗎你的困難在哪裡這個部分就是說如果是我們覺得有犯罪可疑我們會去處理第一個部分如果沒有犯罪可疑他在那個區域我們先處理告警然後通知航港單位做航空管理先廣播那如果不行的話我們的海巡署的艦船也會去做相關的處理跟所有的勤務作為"},{"start":3758.905,"end":3763.568,"text":"謝謝署長啦我想這個行行都有專業啦因為我在3月的時候也跟海委會跟海巡署這邊討論過我們辦公室有來討論過所以在海上執法是櫃會的專業那定立法地修正法令應該是我們立法委員應該要盡的職責我發現有幾個部分啦齁這個其實我們討論過嘛現在海巡署在執法的時候的困難"},{"start":3783.402,"end":3787.526,"text":"應該是可以有比如說船隻定位系統GIS為常態且為正確的開發目前無法則導致可以船隻抓不勝抓那我覺得這個就可以討論了嘛然後電信管理法的72條所稱未遂犯定義不明什麼是未遂犯這個部分應該要讓海巡署可以"},{"start":3804.102,"end":3808.288,"text":"有清楚的定義讓你們執法能夠順暢也不會遭到這種抗拒等等然後再來現行的處罰沒有包括船隻禁止再進入有國海域扣押或沒入等樣態船隻常常遭到驅離之後又再繞回來防不勝防"},{"start":3819.545,"end":3835.938,"text":"我想這幾個都是海巡弟兄其實在實務執行上面會發生的狀況所以我非常同意也期待主委因為主委你的經驗和高度其實很可以跨部會剛剛說的這部分我是認為其實應該在進行修法的部分海巡組的弟兄當然裝備要有要錢給錢 要人給人我總是這樣講所以剛剛聽到裝備"},{"start":3842.403,"end":3850.429,"text":"要增裝備 我就想到我們的預算被煽動這麼多實在是還要說要裝裝備 這實在是很辛苦不過我覺得法規要能夠明確讓各位有權才能夠請他們負責 我覺得這也是必要的啦謝謝委員關心 剛剛委員真的是真知灼見譬如說剛剛提到AIS沒有罰則的部分那我們海巡就去跟港港局聯絡 希望他們去修傳播法"},{"start":3867.62,"end":3880.355,"text":"那另外譬如說前天之所以被判決沒入的那個抽砂船也是我們去請委員替我們修法所以呢那個船舶最後沒入才會被判決定這樣子"},{"start":3883.097,"end":3902.286,"text":"那我是希望主委把這些相關的法條其實是可以請這個在會後給我們一份報告讓整個委員會一起來為您做支持就是說以電力來講的話現在電力的纜線斷掉它的法則跟電信就不一樣我們要修電業法才能夠對齊這個也是我們也有在溝通好那請提供資料給委員會謝謝好請回答我們委員"},{"start":3917.082,"end":3919.505,"text":"主席 我們請主委請主委主委好主委 剛才我聽到蘇貿委員有跟你談到我們裡面有說在裡面"},{"start":3938.578,"end":3940.561,"text":"之前在10月本席有跟你提起說,我們裡面的人可能有問題跟你說你的手中,還有那個茶,還有碗,他們知道他們自己的不對"},{"start":3954.379,"end":3966.311,"text":"出來主修,因為我認為海巡署是對一個國家的重要性,裡面如果有插隊,不應該插隊的人,是非常嚴重。主委是不是剛才所說的,裡面中國的新聞局,"},{"start":3976.6,"end":3987.602,"text":"這是有三個基礎症 基礎症那現在要怎麼處理他已經取消了 跟委員報告他已經在海巡陣場拿到的中國就很方便 幫我們補助補助的 給我們一些優惠叫我們去申請 我們沒有金錢嘛所以他是在海巡陣場他拿到的我們現在調查的時候 後來都委員已經取消了"},{"start":4004.066,"end":4011.551,"text":"這樣就是表示主委我們裡面的人他沒有做機密的工作喔 他沒有做機密的工作因為我們那麼煩惱的就是我們那麼煩惱的就是剛才委員關心的洩密的共諜那個部分我也是很憂心的因為是怎樣呢 當國防部宣佈說他們裡面有60多個人是有中國的新聞證的"},{"start":4030.555,"end":4043.138,"text":"這是非常嚴重所以我覺得每一個單位我們都要重視去注意尤其現在港鐵在中華民國的台灣以前我們常常會想說國會在你身邊我們都會想說不然大家又要反攻大陸他們的家也不敢來回家但是現在就是有理應外合"},{"start":4060.723,"end":4065.891,"text":"有很多問題出在於我們中華民國的台灣尤其在台灣"},{"start":4069.423,"end":4073.685,"text":"是很恐怖的,所以說主委,他這次你說要補充什麼,因為我看你的看資料,來這是有關那個工地的部分,現在有案件嘛,有的案件是已經有在判刑的階段,還沒定案,有的案件是要在偵查的中間,還沒起訴"},{"start":4093.395,"end":4102.117,"text":"但是對我們來說,我們看到這個政案已經判刑確定的,那是很嚴重的那很嚴重,去人頭錢嘛我有說過,我手頭都很嚴重,因為大家檢舉後手頭有責任嘛,我們都一直在對著因為主委,我們尊重使喚啦,不然判出來的時候,我們都認為他沒有罪啦"},{"start":4121.101,"end":4124.745,"text":"但是看出來的時候你看到他們的惡質真的對到台灣這個海巡的"},{"start":4129.813,"end":4136.158,"text":"整個的規定,我們非常擔心他用這個金錢,那個養豬是超級的不符合比例的養豬在引誘非常非常重金在引誘你拿一張名片可以兩萬塊、一萬塊你如果說拿我"},{"start":4154.091,"end":4161.014,"text":"找一個人 我就給你五十萬 這件事實在是很惡劣很惡劣的那前面的地盤 我也覺得很奇怪為什麼在地下之爭 都知道什麼人騙錢 主動來在觸摸所以我說理性外合就是這樣 裡面的人知道什麼人騙錢"},{"start":4175.12,"end":4183.784,"text":"又去補給他來接受來處理啦所以我覺得你們要先去注意啦不是說實話這樣做說實話也對一個國家非常"},{"start":4190.106,"end":4201.895,"text":"所以我們在第一線在面對中國我有一個很深的感受我是認為像我們在海上保護國家在拚命我們都很希望社會給我們很大的力量給我們支持變成一種無形的國防所以我們團結如果中國做不對的時候不要反倒在賣我們的生活如果中國做不對就是團結我們要有一個力量去對抗中國"},{"start":4219.428,"end":4221.79,"text":"不要鼓勵我們台灣害損的人你還說香港要賣台灣人賣這裡的害損工作你還不好啦這是我最大的惡質啦譬如說我害損有共諜我是小孩啊"},{"start":4235.043,"end":4242.489,"text":"做不對的就是中國啊你這樣把我們滲透啊所以這時候如果有說到我要叫我們的總統陸大臣我在海運委員會我這樣在看我實在是覺得很痛心絕對是不對的風險嘛你如果用這種流量專民團結來說給中國聽大家也去中國跟他們的關係也都不錯的時候趕在他們的面前跟他們說這裡是有的沒有有啦所以說喔主委你直接說嘛"},{"start":4265.007,"end":4268.849,"text":"中華民國,台灣的百姓,看清人的名字,什麼人敢去告台灣這塊土地的啦?我們有說過去有的,你還要去替別人騙自己的人,這是非常不應該啦!主委,你剛才說痛心,心肝乾脆,你還要那麼乾脆,因為今年的疫情,對你來說是非常挑戰!"},{"start":4292.02,"end":4296.542,"text":"因為在這裏我相信每一個人有去關心我們的綜藝生都有去瞭解因為大家想想久久一般的那些說跟你們的綜藝生增加五十幾億跟你們是要看什麼還是什麼但是在本席看起來跟你們提供好關的我們讓你們做的資料看"},{"start":4321.54,"end":4330.89,"text":"我們最擔憂的就是海巡執行的設備裡面,主要是高原管那這樣你聽到有發動他們的裝備,去處理就好"},{"start":4338.764,"end":4343.709,"text":"因為我覺得這裏面有很多啦 跟我們接觸的時間也不夠啦就算那裏面有兩隻船你要交集 你也沒辦法交如果沒辦法交的話 這兩隻船會放在海邊好營運啦沒有辦法去保護台灣啦"},{"start":4361.087,"end":4369.836,"text":"我們當然是希望我不要再糾纏,你尊重要好好的,有好的錢給我們補貨你又沒有錢給人家,怎麼讓你補貨不是說我去買豬肉給你寫,不要再給我們寫本來是年底要糾纏,這兩隻其實也算大錢"},{"start":4380.666,"end":4382.368,"text":"我們就沒辦法 那個設備呢?設備是這樣 設備實在是小名的 委員當然啦 這是顧到愛心船 它會保護全台灣中華民國的安全"},{"start":4396.944,"end":4403.068,"text":"所以我一定要替他報他要買防彈背心他要買短武器所以我一定要替他報他如果我說我不是你選擇我跟你同情你又要怎麼講主委他這個有台有台喔有台之後我就必須替他報所以替他報 替他報到最後就是兩下子沒辦法了"},{"start":4425.061,"end":4428.024,"text":"這兩層說實在很好笑的因為我覺得長久以來都為了國家的保護你一層做好了可以高的選擇你覺得沒有這個議程之后我們連江縣沒有跟議程做新聞那是配偶的議員在議會這層配偶的副管理員還是管理員叫他要去跟我們問因為我們連江縣一層軍在那裡驅離"},{"start":4454.545,"end":4458.126,"text":"一大早以後,居民都會很高興連一大早做的事,就要配合議員去勞軍每一大早其實都要去勞軍這時候有時候我們的時間比較不充足拜託你給我一個宿命"},{"start":4479.33,"end":4486.892,"text":"尤其這兩天我們沒有預算的時候 未來要怎麼樣?還有這個蝦皮糕要怎麼樣?要怎麼樣?以上好 謝謝好 我們請黃建民委員好 謝謝主席 我們有請海委會管主委好 請主委"},{"start":4513.441,"end":4539.886,"text":"主委早 主委今天是海委會的業務報告本席看完了海委會的報告之後想要針對一個議題跟主委來聊聊因為這是最近台中鄉親非常關心的一個議題在我們海委會的報告裡面有提到一個業務就是落實離岸風場生態影響評估我們目標就是要確保離岸風場開發對於生態環境的影響降至最低"},{"start":4540.706,"end":4558.241,"text":"那113年我們監管了四座離岸風電水下基礎工程包括雲林台電二起海龍二號三號風場並且與我們的環境部來合作進行七次的這個稽查包括五次的陸域檢查跟兩次的海岸海域巡查"},{"start":4559.122,"end":4583.449,"text":"那由此可見我們對發展離岸風電跟生態之間的保護海委會尤其是海保署扮演的非常非常重要關鍵的角色在海保署的官網上面我們也特別提到為了海洋保育以及資源的永續利用海保署積極的參與各項各機關海洋保育案件的審查跟這個審議"},{"start":4585.149,"end":4594.818,"text":"那就我們海域生態跟海域水質等提供相關的意見並且依照我們這個環境評估法環境影響評估法裡面參與的這個委員會專案小組會議還有環境監督會議參與離岸風力發電的相關的這個審議"},{"start":4602.625,"end":4630.045,"text":"那為什麼不是這個地方說的這個事情我們特別挑這件事因為最近有風電的業者講在台東的海岸線設置大型的風電機那這件事情其實引起我們當地居民很大的爭議本是要強調雖然他們目前規劃的是陸域的風電但是他的業務就在我們台東的海岸線電管所以因此跟我們這個海洋保育息息相關我們還是要關注"},{"start":4630.745,"end":4649.13,"text":"是相信像主委你也非常清楚我們台東海岸線可以說全國是全國最美的海岸線那還有會其實這幾年其實也投入很多在做海洋保育這一塊在台東那我想尤其我們整個海岸線的這海洋生態資源非常的豐富台東可以說是面對太平洋的最前線"},{"start":4650.31,"end":4674.084,"text":"因此這個緊鄰海岸的這個風電不僅是對居民會造成影響我相信它還對沿海的生態會造成衝擊那尤其這個開發業者他預計是要在台東的海岸線設置將近60座由南到北將近60座的這個風力發電機我想這一旦生育下去我們台東這最美麗的海藏可能就不復存在我想台東也會斷送台灣也會斷送一處這個文明國際的這個風景"},{"start":4678.834,"end":4700.885,"text":"那關於我們目前業者在台東的這個陸域封建的規劃案負責審查的機關是主要是經濟部跟環境部啦那本期其實在立法院也不斷地強表達地方的心聲那我們堅決不同意未經共識的開發案破壞我們的環境而且要求主管機關要嚴格來審查我們目前已經有陸續獲得經濟部長跟環境部長的這個"},{"start":4705.727,"end":4729.86,"text":"表態就是他不支持陸域風電在我們東海岸的推動那根據我們經濟部能源局過去委託台灣地區風力潛能分佈模擬分析的結果我們台灣主要的風力潛能蘊藏區除了澎湖的離島之外主要分佈還是在西部的這個沿海地區這是它邊國的部分那一直對於我們東部的鄉親來講我們很難想像有一天風電會進駐在"},{"start":4732.216,"end":4757.077,"text":"台東可能要發展這個風電那這個對當地的環境恐怕也會造成很大的這個影響不過我想除了這一次台東的風電事件之外其實在2020年的時候也有曾經業者討論在台灣的這個東北部的這個外海就是北 外海的北方的這個三個島嶼設置風電廠會引起那個疑難的漁民很強烈的抗議我想這些案例都"},{"start":4758.118,"end":4773.713,"text":"看到就是代表這些風電業者已經目標將這個方向轉到東部來規劃雖然說我們海委會主管的是離岸風電我們這邊也想要請教管主委我身為我國海洋保育的主管機關的首長"},{"start":4774.614,"end":4791.546,"text":"那針對未來無分市離岸風電或者是陸域風電的開發案若是在我們全國最美麗的台東的海岸線來進行或者是會可能影響到我們珍貴的海洋生態是不是會堅持 堅守我們主管機關的權責積極的傾聽我們在地的聲音"},{"start":4797.01,"end":4818.928,"text":"這沒有經過共識的開放破壞環境我想也在環評的過程裡面積極的扮演這個監督的這個功能一起來守護我們台東的海洋資源這部分想要請主委來表態一下跟委員報告分三個部分第一個部分是我們今年度對台東縣政府在海洋保育方面的補助大概是1700萬"},{"start":4823.152,"end":4840.489,"text":"1716萬那這個是第一另外就是說我們有在地守護的計畫有在地守護團隊的話那他們依在地的聲音在地的守護的團隊如果有出來提案我們也會扶植他們所以在台東也有在地守護的團隊在"},{"start":4842.728,"end":4866.645,"text":"那他主要是做那個資源調查好那那另外就是說我們對於這個案其實海保署陸署長他也已經有關注到雖然他是陸域的案但是他有在關注好那我們會積極主動的關注那我想環境部也部長也有對對這個案表達他基本的態度好那基本上就如同我在報告中所說"},{"start":4867.626,"end":4882.034,"text":"我們會建立以科學為基礎的生態保育所以在科學為基礎的話很重要就是要調查所以在調查的這個部分我們會主動的來關注我會主動的來做謝謝主委"},{"start":4885.796,"end":4904.608,"text":"這個問題讓台東人很驚訝就是說這整個生態會造成很大的影響那我想我們一起來守護我們整個海洋資源也守護我們東部美麗的海岸線那謝謝主委這邊的謝謝主委謝謝主委謝謝主席好 謝謝黃建民委員再來我們請張宏祿召委"},{"start":4917.253,"end":4923.804,"text":"那我請主委跟那個副署長我請主委跟署長請主委跟署長"},{"start":4937.132,"end":4947.434,"text":"主委跟署長其實剛剛很多人都在講我們的海嵐被斷的事情其實衍生出來問題我們的球場幾乎都反而我們要賠錢才對吧這個署長可以回答我們是不是幾乎都要賠錢我請署長回答我們過去只有兩個案成功"},{"start":4967.112,"end":4980.996,"text":"對請署長回答這邊跟委員報告我們從開始有海瀾被破壞以後我們有兩件事酋長成功那你只救你的這個部分就好了那個什麼電纜的修復那個是他們的事情齁那是中華電信機啊救我們的救我們的"},{"start":4986.622,"end":5012.168,"text":"那個跟委員報告因為我們要投注在防制海濫這個安全的部分我們投注很多心力那我們那我們現在就是說海濫部分第一個部分就是我們除了要關注在周邊航行的船舶以外我們還要派很多勤務去做船舶便士這個是等下我跟你講船被扣押的時候船舶的停泊費誰出啊"},{"start":5013.587,"end":5027.221,"text":"呃之前是就是我們處理機關來處理我們處理但是後來1月6號以後還有會有開過跨部會會議那這個部分只要是犯罪證據明確的話是全部由中華電信跟韓港局來處理啊再來人員勒"},{"start":5031.84,"end":5047.816,"text":"他上面這個犯罪的所有人員船長什麼這些呢?這個全部都是由中央電信跟航港局來處理後續的是由他們包括他們的這個所有的站面的補給啊這些由代理行他們的全部來處理這個賽上次1月6號開的快播已經協調了"},{"start":5049.443,"end":5074.417,"text":"所以現在都他們嘛是那再來如果船隻扣押之後呢那個拍賣的錢現在是歸我們還是歸拍賣就歸國庫他是由法院來拍賣對不對這個是中華電信這個海嵐這個事情嘛現在是這樣但從以前到現在我們只要扣押了船"},{"start":5075.835,"end":5095.322,"text":"幾乎我們都賠錢比較多吧對有沒有賺錢過的因為像桌上停泊費、保管這些全部我們很清楚在處理我知道啦我們是不是都賠錢比較多是都賠錢比較多嘛那再來他的人員呢他的犯法的人員呢可能關一關也就走了吧"},{"start":5096.523,"end":5106.991,"text":"這個部分就是法院判決如果是他是有罪的話就會判處徒刑那在台灣就會服完刑期以後由透過陸委會方式跟移民署方式來遣返"},{"start":5108.552,"end":5129.597,"text":"對啦 就是廣完就走了嘛 對不對剛剛也有委員說啊 就很多的問題啊希望我們啊 這個海委會啊能夠把它整理出來我們該修法的就修法像這種的我跟你講 尤其對惡劣的對我們的對岸惡劣的這種的因為我們"},{"start":5130.837,"end":5151.898,"text":"如果修法然後要求他有一些賠償或什麼的或更多的責任我覺得才會嚇阻啦不然我跟你講反正喔他來都是有目的的啦他拿到的代價比他被關的還多啦每個人都會繼續來啦那我們如果台灣不修法這個問題沒有辦法解決啦不知道主委你的看法"},{"start":5153.168,"end":5173.556,"text":"謝謝委員馬上就可以提的就是說那我就比照抽砂船啊抽砂船現在我們經過修法也是很感謝委員們的支持之後呢第一個我船就可以沒入了所以前天就判決了沒入發回更審然後沒入第二個我還可以同時給他病科這個罰金"},{"start":5177.077,"end":5200.115,"text":"所以如果我們把它修在電業法是電力的嘛輸配電的然後電信那個電信管理法是是這個海嵐的斷纜的船嘛目前沒有目前沒有這個這個條款那確實是可以可以修目前是只有刑責但是船的沒入啊罰金等等這些我們可以來修"},{"start":5201.558,"end":5225.295,"text":"對 我的意思是說 我舉這個例子那我們來修這個法但可能要請你們再多想不是 請你們要再多想一點有 像AIS的部分我們也去請那個 航港局修了那另外就是說 小船小船不掛AIS 小船沒有納管的事我們也一直都在溝通現在波特船也是很嚴重的一個問題所以很多"},{"start":5228.057,"end":5249.593,"text":"其實很多法都是我們海巡這裡執法以後反應給主管部門去修法來的對 我的意思就是這樣以這一個全漁船的這種例子這樣子啦包括現在很多的甲漁船我們應該要修法能夠想到的一次就圍堵啦"},{"start":5250.713,"end":5274.308,"text":"不夠的再來補不要說一個一個來修要修法就一次然後各單位所以我才今天說要請你們海委會包括跟海巡署有相關的你們實際上遇到的要就一次我們來做盤點如果有委員的支持我們在跨部會的協調會更方便更好我們一定支持這個也不是為了委員有好幾個法我們都認為說應該要啟動修法"},{"start":5276.989,"end":5305.348,"text":"這個是為了台灣啊包括我剛剛講的那個電液法的部分我們如果是電力像我們不久以前去取締一個電力斷纜那個是出配電喔他斷纜喔那我們去抓到了船喔那結果呢他那個意外就非故意過失他就不罰他就沒有處罰過失這個有很多啦很多樣態啦我現在講的就是我們把全部的樣態拿在一起一次處理啦是賣負又一個一個來啦賣負啦"},{"start":5307.489,"end":5332.04,"text":"人家是非常惡意的而且你們現在沒有錢沒有油你們連油費都不夠的情況之下你們能夠百分之百的確保說能夠保護到我們漁民保護到所有的人民嗎然後可以抓走私嗎我覺得這一點我相信主委你也不敢保證吧在沒有錢沒有油的情況之下"},{"start":5332.81,"end":5350.346,"text":"跟委員報告我們才前幾天回來的我們一千來回一千多海里然後想要去救一個船長因為他中風後來把他戒護回來光油錢光油錢大概都五六百萬那像這樣的遠洋救援我們就要五六百萬"},{"start":5351.107,"end":5372.094,"text":"那另外就是我們24小時的運作然後全國有這麼多的安檢所等等那我們的電費也不夠去年的電費都還用第二預備金替我們付了一千萬那今年水電費這樣一山我們現在也是苦哈哈也是很自愛我知道啦 主委電費齁"},{"start":5374.52,"end":5384.246,"text":"也很重要啦 但可能冷氣不用吹啦但油錢不夠 連救人都不行啦這個才是重點啦 主委謝謝謝謝委員謝謝張宏錄 張偉好 那再來我們請李博義委員"},{"start":5402.968,"end":5423.113,"text":"謝謝有請管主委跟署長好請主委跟署長委員好肩負台灣的這個海岸安全而且有我們所有周邊的這些沿海的安全那我想海委會海巡署壓力非常的沉重"},{"start":5424.488,"end":5433.844,"text":"在這邊先給所有海巡署的同仁們加油我們還是希望站在執政黨的委員我們雖然在"},{"start":5434.961,"end":5460.432,"text":"去年1月以及後來的復翼案都沒有能夠成功把海委會海巡署相關的預算可以爭取下來但是我覺得我們必須要在這邊跟國人來講清楚這些預算去了哪這些預算發生什麼事我先講海底電纜每個人都在講海底電纜今年的1月3號有一個有一艘"},{"start":5462.326,"end":5486.667,"text":"柯麥隆級的貨船它的拋錨導致海底電纜受損那很快的國防外交委員會的林義軍召委他就召開了這一個專案報告國安局提出幾點建議包含加強電纜周邊的海域重點巡查這個是海巡署的工作"},{"start":5487.731,"end":5513.238,"text":"完備海染設施防護演練這個海巡署的工作推動國際交流提升合作聯防加強權宜輪檢管管制通報這也是海巡署的工作很多海巡署的工作演完這一場專案報告之後呢1月21 1月22藍白漏葉表決通過史上最大筆的預算煽動案"},{"start":5516.786,"end":5522.264,"text":"我講一下這個時序接下來2月25號又發生了一件"},{"start":5523.49,"end":5543.83,"text":"台澎三號海纜全斷障礙經過經查之後是由多哥級的鴻泰號郵輪這台鴻泰號就是剛剛主委有跟其他委員討論到的全一輪它不但有中國的這些身份之外它同時也有註冊台灣的"},{"start":5548.486,"end":5553.418,"text":"台灣是宏泰58那他在中國是金龍吧"},{"start":5554.172,"end":5580.282,"text":"他有很多的名字還有善美還有宏泰168跟宏泰58所以剛剛主委講到的這個必須要做這些我們在處理我們在處理上一個法案的時候我們有增加這些罰則他罰錢之外那我們希望還是要增加刑責針對這個蓄意用灰色手段在破壞台灣電纜的這些船隻接下來3月12號"},{"start":5582.605,"end":5607.906,"text":"我們給藍白一次復議機會那也給我們海巡署再一次機會我們能不能再把這些經費要回來3月12號總預算的復議案對不起我們還是沒有辦法得到國民黨跟民眾黨的支持所以我在這邊要問主委的是在這兩次預算案裡面被刪掉的預算裡面"},{"start":5608.939,"end":5633.167,"text":"我看到的資料是3減10億 凍結11億我想要重複一下 我記得我們在內政委員會我們守得很辛苦啊 我們努力的說服國民黨及內政委員會的委員不要刪凍這麼多我想請主席處長說明一下我們在內政委員會被刪除凍結的預算是多少"},{"start":5635.339,"end":5660.306,"text":"包包委員 那個我們在內委會被刪減了1530萬1530萬 但是我們到議員會的時候發生什麼事被刪了10.8億 通山的部分被誰通山那時候就是民眾黨團有提一個通山決 通山的提案就是這一份 通山案通山海巡署15%的預算"},{"start":5665.137,"end":5681.45,"text":"凍結11億的預算就是這一份民眾黨在院會通山海巡署15%也就是10億的預算裡面再加上國民黨在內政委員會做了什麼決議 處長"},{"start":5685.848,"end":5712.451,"text":"國民黨委員在內政委員會做的刪除的決議不得留用刪除的預算不得留用的決議因為那個在通商裡面的話以前都有一個為了執行彈性嘛所以他有一個執行彈性今年的話他有限制通商部分的話取消留用的規定國民黨在內政委員會取消留用的規定台灣民眾黨在院會刪除15%"},{"start":5714.292,"end":5720.723,"text":"也就是說你今年度可能要交的船會沒有辦法交船來 主委 這個是不是請你回應"},{"start":5722.723,"end":5746.381,"text":"各位委員報告 刪掉的這10億多呢我們最後 最後悄悄來悄悄去大概就是兩艘船沒辦法交船為什麼兩艘船沒有辦法交因為我們以前若是希望抬掉的錢我們有一個決議 那個決議就是說我們可以去替代對 我剛剛講過了嘛 這個決議已經被國民黨委員在內政委員會決議拿掉了"},{"start":5749.844,"end":5769.521,"text":"拿掉了我們現在變成不能補回來不能補所以今年這兩隻船就沒辦法航船但是最好他好了對不對 造好了對不對年底會造好年底造好但是依今年被30億的預算是沒有辦法交船的對那另外就是說其實最嚴重的不是這個我們現在第一年"},{"start":5772.862,"end":5800.632,"text":"七上八下還懸而未決的是那六百多億怎麼辦那六百多億萬一到時候真的必須刪然後分配而下現在講的只有這個統三的啦還沒有包含六百多億還沒有包含六百多億行政院跟我們現在海委會還沒有辦法算出來到底六百多億海委會必須要被刪幾億嗎那可能是好幾十億就是我全部解凍都還不夠啦"},{"start":5801.152,"end":5827.508,"text":"所以你解凍也沒辦法啦你不用解凍 因為你解凍那些都要抬掉的又不夠給台我們把海巡署視為國防的一部分國民黨加民眾黨這幾個預算的決議其實就是讓台灣的海巡 讓台灣的國防敗殼了主委你同不同意這樣我剛剛有舉例 譬如說我們的連江艦好了那我再舉例 譬如說鴻泰鴻泰一艘船"},{"start":5828.988,"end":5833.01,"text":"要海底電纜我首先在那裡感到好我一台大船去就有辦法抓到你的時候還是兩台船就有辦法包抄給你找不到的時候這兩台船就牽涉到我斷纜的船抓到沒有啦"},{"start":5843.473,"end":5848.515,"text":"那個斷纜的磚是幾六千甚至萬噸的,是貨輪我們的磚更大一台也兩千噸、六百噸、最大一台四千噸但是我兩台過去的時候,你更大一台不敢把我弄的時候,我可能也抓到你會中這邊風太,我們就是去找他嘛我就不怕你遭,我抓到你會中"},{"start":5866.64,"end":5895.379,"text":"對 船上的人的安全設備我兩台船我就有辦法抓斷纜船了啦你現在兩台船沒辦法搞船 你看影響多大啦阿剛才我舉的連江艦的例子 一台艦喔一台艦它就有辦法給陪侯抓 頭土魚抓得很開心啦抓到他的魚丸 要再叫管隊少這兩台船 你剛剛講的海底戀郎跟漁民的安全都發生疑慮我們必須要跟國人說明清楚 謝謝"},{"start":5896.7,"end":5901.305,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝李博弈委員再來我們請麥玉珍委員謝謝主席 尤其主委好 請管主委"},{"start":5925.898,"end":5951.268,"text":"好主委好首先我們都沒有分黨派我們都大家都肯定我們海洋委員會在113年推動了就是堅守三岸守護四海伸手海洋的努力並在國家海洋的治理邊境的安全海洋保育及"},{"start":5952.423,"end":5968.341,"text":"近鄰轉型等政策面的不錯的進展我們都很肯定還有加上說我們每一個部會啊到處招搖 鋪天蓋地但是我們的管組委"},{"start":5969.802,"end":5970.143,"text":"所以我們的海委會在2014年編了335億"},{"start":5985.538,"end":5990.461,"text":"3886萬還增訂比去年多了53億還有我們海洋科研海委會的也是在今年也增資了7500萬也通過30案入選這些都是我們的預算裡面所以說面對當前的極端氣候差距所以我們的"},{"start":6015.578,"end":6019.722,"text":"灰色地帶的衝突高還有以及的全球對燃炭與生態的法制的高度的關注台灣若成為一個真正的海洋國家因為我們在這裡看到那邊是溫良家所以說我們覺得海洋的國家真的是很重要大家就是做一個"},{"start":6039.353,"end":6046.641,"text":"不只是具備海上的防衛能力還更需擁有的科學為基礎我們的制度為骨幹跨領整合維和的核心的"},{"start":6055.529,"end":6075.192,"text":"治理架構所以我們的主委真的是給你拍拍手所以我們都會認同你也是覺得說整個經費你都沒有再去向其他人所以這些委員一直要提出提出讓你不得你要去講一下所以說我們希望我們歸會在報告中有三個重點政策方向提出幾個問題我們希望說"},{"start":6085.094,"end":6086.055,"text":"我們的組委要給我們一些建議所以我們是看到在113年的時候再到114年3月我們的海委會針對我們中國大陸的業界的"},{"start":6103.261,"end":6106.422,"text":"的距離1671艘還有扣留20艘還有罰了730萬元沒入的這8艘這個量真的很龐大但是我們戰略防疫角度的觀之才有就是重要的幾個問題需要說一個澄清就是因為灰色地帶有就是"},{"start":6130.654,"end":6139.929,"text":"超常就是這個常態化了海巡高感知知能力還有仰賴的是科技的補全還有"},{"start":6143.281,"end":6151.785,"text":"請問在截止日前全國完成部署的紅外線的夜影還有監控的共點有幾處這個部分還有說我們已經是是否該含就是所有的高風險的熱帶區還有是否具備夜間辦事與AI的警能力"},{"start":6171.253,"end":6184.625,"text":"這個部分是不是說我們的主委這邊這幾點可以說明一下謝謝委員關心也謝謝委員的肯定那我跟委員報告就是說是不是容我來辦公室跟委員說明剛剛的這幾個部署詳細的部署的內容因為比較不適合機敏的"},{"start":6191.451,"end":6216.25,"text":"没问题没问题我们都欢迎最资深的立委又最认真的主委所以我们希望就是这个就是我们要有准确性再来去又没有说可能会误判或者误判后呢我们要如何查证人力如何配置还有说我们能够快速排除这些状况这个部分也希望说"},{"start":6216.789,"end":6223.116,"text":"我們主委這邊我們很少有誤判的狀況對有一些就是關於這個希望說是誤判的一次那我也馬上第二天第二天上午就馬上該懲處就立刻懲處我們要是非分明所以我們希望說就是聯合這些監控的小組"},{"start":6237.35,"end":6263.391,"text":"就是要研究啦就是我們希望是有這個部分想要更了解因為我們就是大家做事情就是要那個穩重又有實際所以我們希望說有這樣子的一個一個關注希望說我們主委這樣子的硬硬的這樣子的威脅的話這個就是灰色地帶的威脅所以我們希望說有這樣子的一個"},{"start":6264.519,"end":6282.584,"text":"所以你說你要到辦公室跟我講所以我們第二個就是說在請教就是關於就是我們海洋污染還有生態退化的問題所以在113年至114年3月也是海污緊急的應變達到256件海難事件也佔了140件所以我們"},{"start":6290.046,"end":6293.169,"text":"非海南的116件請問256件的應變中心實際有污染後的效果為何還有我們的量能允許下座第一線的應變人員平均反應的時間還有出勤的"},{"start":6310.925,"end":6318.57,"text":"這出勤力的列管所以我們希望說然後就是因為時間的關係所以我們主委可以在針對就是海洋保護一個公告後第一階段的實施後續就是何時可以完成這兩件可以給我一個回應"},{"start":6331.457,"end":6352.676,"text":"那個出勤的時間的部分 可能就比較沒辦法 為什麼呢因為出勤的人員 中央地方政府還有民間是這樣三合一一起在應變但是屬於我們海委會海保署的人員 各位有報告齁我看到那時候譬如說玉洲啟航 半月三點半在調度"},{"start":6354.858,"end":6382.852,"text":"我們一定要它要不然汙染的時候我們就必須要把資材整合好然後運到現場然後開始拉攔油索還沒汙染就要開始做了所以那個LINE的資料都可以讓大家看到會感動到掉眼淚我們本來三點半要在連絡這些事情所以初勤我是覺得初勤、濾勤大家不用擔心我們台灣的海域"},{"start":6384.534,"end":6385.636,"text":"來一次颱風 來兩次颱風總共就11艘大船擱淺"},{"start":6391.496,"end":6417.401,"text":"那個海汙的處理到現在還在處理蘭嶼的船還有獄舟起航還有擱淺的那些還有三艘加起來還有五艘到現在還在處理所以請為我們放心我們是日以繼夜非常積極的在應變因此我們海上的污染多半都事先防範或者是立即捕捉到目前為止這幾年來"},{"start":6420.262,"end":6439.565,"text":"都沒有嚴重的污染出現那背後就是大家的努力就是詳細也真的有用心所以就是讓你多講讓更多我們就是對我們的海委會我們海保人力非常少我們覺得說這個真的是要多讓更多人知道"},{"start":6439.945,"end":6447.55,"text":"因為有時候資料不足或者是沒有完整所以我們希望說這些都要去完整讓我們可以更了解更清楚對我們的海洋國家就是名副其實"},{"start":6460.558,"end":6482.877,"text":"這樣子的話我們才會有這樣子的制度還有科技還有就是跨部會的治理我們希望說我們的主委你主動提出改革也主動說要來在我辦公室要跟我們做報告還有預算性的效力還有執行的效力我覺得這個就是我們"},{"start":6485.257,"end":6497.163,"text":"大家都是肯定的我們謝謝我們的主委對我們的用心對我們海洋國家的用心謝謝好我們請黃婕委員好謝謝主席我們請管主委好請主委"},{"start":6516.89,"end":6517.174,"text":"委員好"},{"start":6518.24,"end":6546.368,"text":"好 主委好首先我還是要跟您再次的請教這個預算的部分因為其實很多委員都有提到了3月底公告的這個總預算被刪減跟凍結的結果很可能造成很多重要的預算沒有辦法執行下去那我就我幾個非常關心的部分來跟您請教第一個是國外旅費的部分被刪了60%那這一點我非常擔心是因為還記得上一次總諮詢的時候我也在"},{"start":6547.188,"end":6572.49,"text":"一場請教主委說我們是不是應該要針對最近的海瀾的狀況來加強擴大跟國際聯防在海瀾外交以及國際安全上面做更多的區域聯防那當時我認為接下來很重要就是利用這個國外旅費的部分來參加更多的國際安全的會議然後像波羅的海周遭的國家一樣進行海瀾的外交結果"},{"start":6574.372,"end":6587.008,"text":"現在我們國外的旅費被通刪了60%這是一個非常非常大的打擊等於直接銷入我們在海域安全上面跟其他國家的交流這是我在這邊要非常嚴厲譴責也要在這邊"},{"start":6590.533,"end":6593.556,"text":"希望呼籲接下來如果還有類似的經費絕對不能這樣亂刪因為這跟我們接下來非常關注的海域跟其他國際上的交流非常之重要啊尤其是我才剛提到海南外交結果就被砍掉了各位原報告"},{"start":6605.689,"end":6626.493,"text":"就是海巡的部分有特別做一個決議說海巡35%就好那海委會整體還是在60%但是問題在海巡更嚴重為什麼呢他雖然3的%數是15%但他弄一個不得留用不得留用的意思就是說你不夠欠錢過去是我海委會可以給你每年都給我海委會出國的錢"},{"start":6631.454,"end":6641.285,"text":"因為海巡你要去跟其他的國家交流要去跟他們學習 要去跟他們訓練我們的海巡是很多 還要去跟他們做外交所以他們都沒辦法 已經每年都沒辦法 都要我幫忙"},{"start":6647.171,"end":6671.258,"text":"現在連港澳客也不能和他因為他就規定不能留用所以這個部分說起來數字裡面常有實在是不為人知的苦楚在裡面所以國外的旅費對我們來講尤其是海巡不得留用的這部分是很大的傷害那國內的旅費"},{"start":6673.238,"end":6692.322,"text":"我們真的是很辛苦跟委員報告國內的旅費刪除的結果雖然你說總額幾千萬不多但是委員我們就因此我們東沙的弟兄他們要回來休假都要搭飛機來回我們因為國內旅費刪減的結果"},{"start":6695.143,"end":6708.237,"text":"我們三百分之二十而且不得留用導致於我們東沙的弟兄沒有辦法百分之百的就可以搭飛機來回休假是影響他們休假的權益嗎"},{"start":6711.295,"end":6726.072,"text":"我們就變成在調度上會影響我們在調度上面的摯愛那另外就是他要花更多的時間在交通我們就要去把他喬準出來所以他沒有多少行李我們就要去喬準喬準的時候時間就比較長所以休假的時間還有交通的時間長長就影響我們的調度"},{"start":6733.34,"end":6750.599,"text":"我們都不可以到外面看不到整個海巡現在變成國內的出差、散雜費全部不能領出差有時候要買一個便當現在自己出錢了以前就是出差、散雜費現在都完全不能領"},{"start":6751.62,"end":6776.833,"text":"是啦 對於公務員真的很辛苦啦這個我們大家也是非常努力做事為了國家為了海域的安全在努力結果現在被刪成這樣對於我們公務員的打擊士氣打擊也是非常大那我在這邊講一個我認為也是非常嚴重的啦就是設備費因為這個海巡在第一線是非常非常需要良好的設備來守護他們的安全還有進行搜救的安全結果這次設備費砍了6% 8.9億"},{"start":6779.995,"end":6806.85,"text":"那是不是他們在個人的設備上面的更新都會受到影響啊本來有影響就是說我那個設備裡面已經有新的案嘛新增預算 新增預算不是說增加就很快樂增加都是救命錢啦實在是一塊錢都不應該省啦為什麼我要買防彈背心的啦我要買藍解鎖的啦我要買短武器的啦"},{"start":6807.39,"end":6815.654,"text":"我要買救生救難設備這個我們都有看過海巡人員在海上第一線的這個工作執行是非常辛苦的非常高風險的"},{"start":6822.829,"end":6836.058,"text":"所以講到這邊我是覺得很難過啦也替我們海巡人員感到很不捨啦就不敢咩所以在這邊也是再次的幫我們辛苦的海巡人打氣啦那在這邊還有一點時間我要講一下這個海嵐的事情因為其實我在總質詢也提過了包括說現在我們海嵐受到的風險是非常高的"},{"start":6842.782,"end":6864.11,"text":"那其實在4月1號我知道行政院也因為我們非常有的很多委員都很關心所以有開了一個強化我國海嵐的研討會議那之後也有提相關的修法的準備那我不知道說現在準備的進度到哪裡了那我在這邊提一個喔因為其實最近中國他們不只是用貨船用漁船最近還用科研船"},{"start":6864.79,"end":6879.061,"text":"那他們這種類似的間諜船越來越多了那最近有一個中國的研究是說他們會把這個切斷海欖的工具搭載在科研船上面然後不只是淺海的海欖可以切斷連深海的海欖他們也覬覦"},{"start":6881.078,"end":6894.353,"text":"那這種間諜船在我看來是風險非常高那最近澳洲也因為中國的這個探索一號直接跟著他們的海嵐的路線沿著他們海嵐路線在行駛讓澳洲非常警戒"},{"start":6895.39,"end":6913.895,"text":"那像這種間諜船接下來是不是也會影響如果他們不只是在我們台灣海峽未來他們在我們東部在我們北部開始覬覦我們的深海的海嵐該怎麼辦是不是應該眼光看遠一點他們現在包括我知道你們最近終於把這個台澎三號"},{"start":6914.875,"end":6929.808,"text":"虹泰58終於可以用司法來制裁嘛這個初步有一個好的結果那未來除此之外其他法律修法相關之外我們這些深海的海嵐到底有沒有一些防範的方式以及往前看到底該怎麼預防"},{"start":6932.359,"end":6951.497,"text":"我想中華電信本身也很努力他們也在對於他們的海嵐的汰換或者是海嵐的這個發展的各方面的技術還有備援系統等等他們都有努力的在精進那對於海嵐的守護他們也有智慧的監控的系統"},{"start":6952.558,"end":6969.691,"text":"那我晚近也有陸陸續續在請海巡跟他們建議就是說無人機隊的守護說不定也可以引進我們國內已經有無人機隊被僱用來巡查直升機隊巡查離岸風電"},{"start":6971.832,"end":6993.63,"text":"那直升機隊能夠民間如果租賃 雇用來幫忙也做巡查那我們海巡就會有中華電信 航港局跟海巡之外我們有三層的防護之外 再加一層空中這樣的一個巡防那我們最近也都有在溝通"},{"start":6997.293,"end":7020.079,"text":"那委員剛剛講的修法的部分我們4月22號要開第二次會議行政院政務委員會來主持各部會就分頭回去他們需要修的法分頭回去研議那第二次會議是4月22號會開太好了4月22號開第二次會那我也希望盡快啦因為我看起來是非常迫切"},{"start":7021.279,"end":7046.599,"text":"就最近這個澳洲的例子看起來然後再加上因為我們現在的法律上法律工具真的很不足包括說現在只能預警啊驅離啊那什麼時候可以沒入什麼時候可以開罰不知道是有刑責也可以開罰但是對於船的沒入目前還沒有像那個那個塗財法跟專精法一樣就是說"},{"start":7047.6,"end":7076.055,"text":"以我們現在的民刑法的體系來看這一艘船的船東是別人然後犯罪行為人是船長跟船員那以我們現在的司法體系呢它又不是他們的船那又不是船東犯的法所以你要沒入的話法律是不允許的所以我們必須去修法說這種犯刑的船雖然非屬行為人所有也"},{"start":7077.215,"end":7089.344,"text":"應該沒入也可以沒入好必須修這個法我們才有辦法得到得到法院的支持好謝謝那我也希望朝這個方向再加緊研議好謝謝主委謝謝謝謝好請您去定位謝謝主席管主委有請好請主委"},{"start":7110.753,"end":7133.4,"text":"主委早安今天先從海底電纜的事件開始探討這個今年國內有四次的海底電纜斷裂的事件這個1月3號基隆的外海國際海纜被順興39拖斷1月15跟1月22台馬3號跟台馬2號後來按照海委會的查詢結果應該是自然裂化就是斷裂2月25號颱風3號海纜遭中國權益論這個鴻泰來拖斷"},{"start":7137.681,"end":7163.655,"text":"那我想要請從這幾個事件裡面討論幾個事情就以1月3號基隆外海國際海欄斷裂事件來講這個當天啊這個7點45分其實就發生海欄斷裂的狀況那當然海巡到中午嘛12點40分左右其實才接到中華電信的通報然後來針對順興號來去做攔查這個中間的時間好像長了一些啦你們彼此之間這個政府之間的跨部的通報的"},{"start":7164.797,"end":7169.457,"text":"時機跟跨部的協調這是不是應該有一些改善的空間你們還有會做哪些努力"},{"start":7170.154,"end":7198.1,"text":"跟委員報告我們經過國安程序之後有稍微縮短時間但是之前時間比較長倒也不是疏忽或者是疏失最主要是我們判斷到什麼階段的問題跟委員報告我們海巡會遇到一種狀況就是第一次判斷出來的點位我們的船去了結果告訴我們說不對不對在另一個點位"},{"start":7198.92,"end":7224.113,"text":"中間會差三四十海域所以你們判斷點位的資料來源其實也是來自於中華電信嗎所以其實給他們時間做精確的判斷是有必要但是如果說我們判斷說是故意行為的可能性很高的時候呢我們海巡就願意我們也願意負擔這種成本"},{"start":7224.893,"end":7247.052,"text":"像我們在剛剛委員講的這幾次當中我們就有齁出去結果說不對又回來所以這個有兩個問題嘛第一個是說這個海嵐的所有者基本上都是中華電信來做管理等等他有沒有辦法第一時間精準的通報資料這第一個這個需要你們政府跨部的加強溝通跟協調啦這個時間總算要縮短第二個是你有辦法第一時間去掌握相關船舶的位置跟狀況嗎"},{"start":7248.713,"end":7274.3,"text":"宏泰就是我們事先就監控他 監控了三天我現在就先講順興這件事 還有他衍生出來一些問題以順興號來講 其他就是AIS他可能會關掉或是想辦法規避這件事情那就本期的了解 這個現行傳播法應該是要規定就是說要理論上應該要開啟AIS系統但如果沒有開啟好像也沒有罰則對不對對那這個部分是不是應該要做一些修正跟加強的把控呢"},{"start":7275.858,"end":7289.013,"text":"傳播法這一次研議的內容也包含這一點還包括說它變換或者它開了又關 開了又關沒錯嘛 它可能有意規避奇怪的行為嘛那我們現在先分級我們有一個黑名單"},{"start":7290.614,"end":7313.31,"text":"分級的指標裡面就有你是不是開了又關開了又關我今天要問這個問題的關鍵其實在傳播法到底什麼時候要修法你們政府現在有沒有打算要針對這個地方做規制的調整我們持續在跨部會的開會協調之中那有沒有一些比如說時間進度上的安排因為我覺得這好像是看起來這個事情是國安危機嘛對不對4月22號要開第二次會議"},{"start":7315.311,"end":7341.284,"text":"4月22號開第二次會議有沒有預計什麼時候會把這個修法跟妳剛剛講的分級制度也許都是一個可以改善的狀況因為其實我們是執法單位業務主管不是我們法不是我們修是我們去要求修所以你們在提出需求的時候現在有沒有人給你阻力就是他們不想做麻煩這個怎麼會嗎因為傳播法修法我們其實講很久我們當然希望越快越好所以那個製造阻力的單位是誰我們來幫忙溝通一下我跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":7343.125,"end":7370.964,"text":"這個修法為什麼會那麼困難因為它涉及一修法的時候它適用的範圍是包括所有的漁民那這個部分的話溝通的時間就會比較長時間成本就會比較高你剛剛都講時間很長你總要有一個比如說目標吧比如說半年之內我要整合完初步的意見然後刑事初步的法條然後怎麼樣什麼時候要送到行政院來核定再進到立法院來審查你們現在有這個時間表嗎"},{"start":7373.625,"end":7383.49,"text":"我們不是主管機關沒辦法定時間表但是以我們來講我們就是很積極的在溝通另外一個是預先預防的一個機制啦雖然你沒有辦法第一時間判斷海嵐發生斷裂的地點在哪裡對不對但海嵐的位置總是固定的嘛"},{"start":7393.376,"end":7409.839,"text":"那現在看起來以海委會公布的一些新聞等等也好大概就是有些把毛放下去然後跑嘛然後毛會把海欄勾斷嘛對不對現在看起來這個行為看起來是長這個樣子那有沒有什麼比如說禁毛區啊或怎麼樣一些設置的一些事前預防的機制海委會有沒有一些準備呢"},{"start":7410.419,"end":7424.678,"text":"海岸區作為禁錨區那個是會需要經過公告然後去界定它的範圍那經過這兩次事件以後呢範圍應該要如何重新公告跟法定有在考慮"},{"start":7426.06,"end":7449.159,"text":"那這一部分應該會比修傳播法稍微簡單一點吧這個部分比較快 下個禮拜會開會下個禮拜會開會 什麼時候會有進到公告的程序呢會處理這個 這個都是航港局的權責我想不管是修傳播法也好 或者是你公告競跑局或者說你剛講的一些分級等等你總要有一些事前預防跟可以先處理的機制我們現在已經都在事前預防 是"},{"start":7450.375,"end":7473.952,"text":"這個強度要出來嘛你才能避免就這樣子奇怪的事情在發生所以我們可以抓到宏泰就是因為他還沒斷的時候我們已經去到他的我們要確定的是接下來類似這樣的事情你可以有預前掌握嘛或者是預防其實除了宏泰我們後續還抓了抓了兩次沒關係你後續的一些成果我們有一個案喔委員我們有一個案是同時抓到兩艘沒關係你後續有一些成果跟你現行的機制跟"},{"start":7474.452,"end":7494.569,"text":"有不足之處跟你遇到的困難你在會後你整理個詳細的報告我都已經很明確的講就是說要預防這樣的事情其實大家都會覺得說這個為了海南的穩定性啊為了國家安全大家會願意去支持那主力在哪裡你總要講出來嘛大家才能夠趕快溝通啊搞不好大家可以一起把這個事情加速嘛所以你把遇到的障礙跟困難跟預計的時間會後整理一份資料"},{"start":7495.169,"end":7511.83,"text":"最後一分鐘我一定要問現在大家都真正在去執行這些事情當然就是辛苦了海巡的弟兄嘛我們修正警察人員人事條例保障退休人員的權益但限職人員也很重要啊現在大家越來越多人去講因為實務上以台海兩岸的特殊狀況來講海巡常常是在第一線嘛"},{"start":7512.47,"end":7541.793,"text":"有的時候拍那個貢獻的照片海軍拍得比海軍清楚對不對可是最近現在大家在講我們要加強國防戰力我們要改善志願役弟兄的待遇增加了他的戰鬥佳績海軍都增加了那請問我們海巡署的弟兄他們算警職人員嘛那麼警職人員這些待遇他們做的事情其實跟海軍沒什麼兩樣甚至大家都講現在海軍要變成所謂的第二海軍了那他們做的事情竟然沒有什麼兩樣而且甚至風險跟前線變化都更多那請問海軍的現職人員的待遇應不應該提升"},{"start":7542.897,"end":7570.332,"text":"警職的部分因為海巡就是軍警文三種身份那軍職的話我們隨著軍職的調升都有做相當的配合跟著這個軍職的部分走現在是警職的部分那警職的部分其實這幾年也陸陸續續有調升一些那晚進我們也在爭取一兩項那能不能容委員就是在我這裡先先不去"},{"start":7571.372,"end":7590.203,"text":"沒關係你詳細資料跟你的方向我一樣會給你時間來做處理但是我只是要藉這樣的機會提醒我們在爭取然後有十分得到人事部門的了解沒關係你都整理好一樣跟剛剛一樣把它整理好因為關鍵是你現在在執行的狀況甚至第一線有些警職人員甚至文職人員也要到第一線去處理嘛"},{"start":7590.583,"end":7607.295,"text":"那你不要說大家是同工但不同酬的狀況然後去影響基層的士氣所以我們講我們支持海巡支持軍警等等都是不分退休還是限職都應該要合理的提升這是我們的立場所以如果我是希望海委會這邊也要很積極嘛如果說軍事人員都提升了你應該要比照嘛"},{"start":7607.435,"end":7629.161,"text":"各位委員報告我一面非常積極的在爭取一面呢我勧勉勉勵我的同仁我們國家的責任扛在身上讓他們信賴長官心情不要浮動那當然嘛那我一面有安撫這個事情也都我們署長也都到第一現場這個都是你們本來就應該要做的事情嘛但尤其是我今天特別會提這個事情就是因為"},{"start":7634.042,"end":7655.091,"text":"我特別會提醒這些事情就是因為現在國防外交委員會等他們已經開始在討論軍人待遇的提升嘛那不要出現落差影響士氣嘛所以我覺得海軍這邊要去做準備好不好所以你把相關的一樣你的規劃跟你的接下來的節奏跟也許會遇到的障礙你一樣先整理嘛我們大家都一起來協助溝通然後幫海軍弟兄爭取更好的待遇這樣可以嗎好謝謝主委好謝謝主委辛苦了好我們請區議長委員"},{"start":7667.752,"end":7670.411,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請管碧玲管主委好 請主委"},{"start":7677.025,"end":7699.881,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想今天針對這個我們海委會的這個報告我想我們其實大家都很關注就是說我們台灣是現在身處在印太的這個前線那也是地緣政治的一個焦點那也是數位戰爭的第一線所以海底電纜這個就像是數位生命線的保護已經我想已經不單純只是商業問題而且是攸關國家的這個戰略問題"},{"start":7704.164,"end":7729.394,"text":"那當然今年一月短短三週內台灣就發生了三期的海底電纜的事故除了順興39號之外然後另外在台澎三號電纜更是被鴻泰貨輪斷纜那另外在上個月這個中國大陸也公開的展示一種新型的海底電纜切割機說號稱它可以深入4000公尺海底切斷最堅硬的裝甲電纜那請問主委"},{"start":7731.155,"end":7743.66,"text":"台灣目前的海巡設備是否具備對三千公尺以下的海域的偵測與干擾能力對於水下無人設備進行電纜的迫害作用那海委會是不是已經有跨部會的應對計畫"},{"start":7745.223,"end":7761.699,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員關心有關於水下的偵測的部分呢目前我們還屬於在規劃的階段那大概什麼時候可以規劃可能沒有辦法非常的快比如說有沒有一個時程的規劃涉及就是說我們有沒有要"},{"start":7763.34,"end":7775.147,"text":"國產化如果有的話那國內現在的發展的這個進度的掌握呢基本上我們都在所以如果依主委現在的回答其實等於是還沒開始嗎"},{"start":7776.56,"end":7798.553,"text":"有 我們都已經開始 開過很多會開過很多會 可是剛剛講的嘛針對要用哪一種方式 哪一種方法好像都還在討論中嘛在討論中 這個是事實就已經發生了三期的這個電纜的這個事故啦所以我是覺得應該是要加快加快這樣子的一個評估的一個階段要怎麼來做喔因為這個我想這個攸關我們整個的這個數位的這個生命線的一個相關的訊息啊"},{"start":7804.577,"end":7821.289,"text":"就是相關的守護的途徑非常的多元那包括業主中華電信的本身他們也都在精進那什麼樣的權責什麼樣的技術配屬在什麼樣的部門也都有分工"},{"start":7821.989,"end":7834.957,"text":"那以海巡來講的話我們目前水下或者是水面的無人載具的部分我們目前的進度就是我們開始在規劃研議我們也開過了研討會但是空中我們會比較成熟那請問要研議多久的時間才會比較具體的這個"},{"start":7842.701,"end":7862.006,"text":"就是針對我們3000公尺以下的這個海域的偵測跟干擾人力這樣子的一個派巡設備目前的進度來講如果很具體的要回答這個問題的話有一個指標就是說我們今年來不來得及提出從明年開始的中產業計畫最快最快"},{"start":7863.226,"end":7872.333,"text":"今年開始的中長期計劃今年來不來得及提出來那這個部分我們還不是那麼有把握我們用情監偵系統我們用中華電信的智慧監控系統跟港港局的智慧航安系統跟海巡署的情監偵系統我們三道防線"},{"start":7887.023,"end":7914.385,"text":"那侦测完之后有什么防护的所以我们既抓到了顺兴99我们也抓到了宏泰56那顺兴没有进来是因为那个时候它还不是关键基础设施所以它的进港程序就比较会受到现有制度的影响我想我们目前应该要探讨的是怎么不是只有我们侦测是未来要怎么去预防这样的一个状况发生因为一旦台北电缆被切断之后"},{"start":7914.765,"end":7936.956,"text":"因為預防所以才抓得到你要再恢復要花更久的時間跟更久的精力跟金錢所以跟委員報告我們關係是對的你一定要事先預防所以事先預防的部分呢也是因為我們事先預防所以我希望能夠加快這個時程還沒有斷我們就在現場那是不是可以加快這個時程好不好剛剛講這個言語的時程"},{"start":7937.756,"end":7945.983,"text":"然後另外就是剛剛提到就是說我們如果發現這個可疑傳播靠近敏感海嵐區域的時候我們的線上巡邏艦艇能夠幾個小時到達現場"},{"start":7948.666,"end":7978.167,"text":"我們要看第一個我們要看第一個我們的距離是多遠然後第二個涉及當時的海象跟委員報告就是鴻泰我們監控了他三天那海象一可以我們馬上就去了所以還沒有斷五年財那如果海象惡劣的狀況之下呢會不會就束手無策海上也不會束手無策那會用什麼方式因為如果是如果是那個我們用雷達還是監控著他如果真的是"},{"start":7978.587,"end":7994.639,"text":"發生斷纜的時候我們還是要去追現在我們這個海巡署這邊是不是有全天候的輪班跟快速應變的機制呢有我們都有都有整個機制我們可以請請海巡的同仁來來做詳細的說如果有需要的話"},{"start":7995.239,"end":8021.926,"text":"好那是不是可以因為時間關係是不是這個是不是會後再把詳細的資料送到辦公室好嗎跟委員先補充說明一下就是我們現在在六大徵景區每一天都固定有一艘大艦在線上那另外在12海浬內我們固定都有每一個海巡隊都有兩艘巡防機在線上所以我們第一時間就可以掌握海面所有的目標那剛剛委員有特別提示到就是說我們多少時間會到那取決於我們距離通報點多遠"},{"start":8023.166,"end":8042.898,"text":"那目前我們把海嵐那個區域一接收到通報之後你們就會馬上過去那我們現在是把那個海嵐的區域列為我們的巡查的重點之一所以虹台為什麼那麼快到是因為我們就在現場那剛剛您提到的海嵐區域是不是已經被列為受保護的海域那台灣是不是有這個海嵐防衛地圖呢"},{"start":8044.938,"end":8060.444,"text":"就是我們現在海欄區在電子地圖電子海圖上面都有公告都有公布我們是不是有這個海欄防衛地圖有有有那中華電信它對於每個海欄都有一個告警設置就是Source的一個系統所以只要船舶"},{"start":8062.216,"end":8088.27,"text":"超過20公尺然後航速低於5節然後接近海南1公里它這個系統就會自動告急那我們同時也會收到這個告急我想海底電纜被破壞會使台灣的基礎建設可能會跟經濟的運作會造成長期的壓力那其實也非常需要海委會跟海巡署大家強藉乎那當然如果有需要相對應的經費不管是人啊甚至需要家人要造船需要相關的加班費"},{"start":8090.031,"end":8098.67,"text":"我想 海委會也可以積極地來續上我們的財政跟儲計單位爭取只要預算送來立法院 我們一定會全力支持這樣可以嗎 主委"},{"start":8100.95,"end":8125.225,"text":"我們就是遇到今年有兩艘船不能不能交船的困難因為今年的預算刪減的結果就造成了這個困境如果委員能夠支持我們就是希望未來不要再有發生這樣的狀況謝謝委員剛剛我已經提過就是說只要有需要相關的經費其實你們提出來跟財主還有跟這個主計單位提出那再送到立法院來我們一定會全力支持"},{"start":8125.925,"end":8146.521,"text":"那當然因為海巡弟兄說實在相對非常的辛苦啦所以我也希望說而且他們面臨其實很多都是高危險這個高壓力的所以說我想這個部分也希望說我們海委會這邊能夠針對海巡署的部分我們多給他們一些相關的經費那需要我們立法院來支持的我們一定會全力協助謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":8153.277,"end":8166.378,"text":"鄭正琴 鄭正琴 鄭正琴委員不在 我們請高津素美委員謝謝周浩文 有請主委好 請主委"},{"start":8173.588,"end":8188.938,"text":"主委早看到4月14號海委會的國家海洋研究院還有中山大學主辦的2025國際太平洋海洋教育工作者網絡國際研討會你們邀請了日本加拿大美國還有澳洲等地的學者"},{"start":8190.819,"end":8206.031,"text":"針對傳統生態知識視角下的海洋素養來對話來自亞太的聲音的議題探討然後最後閉幕的時候你們還發布了一個打狗宣言那打狗宣言的重要內容包含優先考量傳統生態知識系統並且要保障傳統族群的權利"},{"start":8211.235,"end":8239.446,"text":"然後各國要建立制度框架來保護並且來支持傳統生態知識的社群權利還有海洋保育中傳統生態知識要納入政策制定的核心要素以及促進海洋科學家跟社區居民的深度合作還有海洋科學研究資金優先支持來社群參與然後建立國際平台有七大承諾很多沒有錯吧"},{"start":8241.006,"end":8266.858,"text":"請問主委你有共同連署了嗎他們的連署主要以他們的成員為主那我們有象徵性的連署但是那個連署書沒有要讓他們帶去聯合國帶去聯合國去倡議的部分是他們自己社群的人才有資格做連署所以我們有象徵性的連署所以象徵性也就是說海委會你們願意承諾海洋政策會往這個方向來進展對不對"},{"start":8268.178,"end":8284.929,"text":"各位原報告我在這個會中我也去分享了我們已經有做的部分那他們對於說我們的海保法可以把原住民的諮商同意權放進去可以把原住民家漁民成為少數有否決權"},{"start":8286.05,"end":8309.517,"text":"他們對於這兩點印象非常的深刻因為這就代表著說我們原住民族的傳統的海洋的智慧傳統的生態的知識是被我們引進到決策的程序那這一點他們覺得我們做得很好對也就是大家非常的努力嘛然後你這個打狗宣言的其實也跟本席"},{"start":8310.437,"end":8334.013,"text":"當時我們在審海洋保育法的時候我非常堅持的核心理念所以我們可以說是創紀錄的把這個少數否決權放進來所以因此我們有要求要求六個月之內要在原住民地區各縣市辦理至少三場次的相關法案的說明會"},{"start":8334.913,"end":8363.531,"text":"并且也邀请我们组人参与然后积极来沟通嘛对不对然后让我们的组人了解一下这个法的利弊得失还有后续的会有影响请问一下现在我们这个场是办理的怎么样我们办完了五场然后执法的部分你知道参与的人数有多少吗然后执法的人数我们也都陆陆续续有做你知道有多少人参加吗这三场总共是一百多人那详细的情形我是不是请组长来说明"},{"start":8364.131,"end":8392.216,"text":"好可以為什麼這麼少人委員我們當時解讀的這個然後也跟溝通的過程所以當時的認定是沒有我現在問你為什麼那麼少人我們基本上在地所有的部落我們其實都有發你們進入到部落了嗎然後你們去你們去這個這個這個開展的這個座談會是在禮拜幾所以其實問題蠻大的所以呢其實我也看到了我們的主任他有在這個"},{"start":8393.036,"end":8410.051,"text":"雖然105個人參加他有提出幾個疑慮啦第一個疑慮就是要求你們要到部落再去召開說明會對吧然後還有誤犯的時候怎麼樣來減輕這樣的機制還有就是原住民文化記憶之間跟我們這個法律的競合問題還有"},{"start":8411.832,"end":8438.944,"text":"批戶區劃設的原住民代表的比例其實呢這些都是我們在修這個癌包法的時候本席非常堅持的立場那請問一下我們有第8條第19條第26條對不對好這個我就不再因為時間的關係我就不再說明了那這這三條當中我們有講到非常多的問題就是你的配套執法請問一下配套執法什麼時候會出來是"},{"start":8440.385,"end":8460.755,"text":"也跟委員這邊說明一下目前我們所有的14個執法應該現在有8個已經預告完成了那我剛剛講的第8條第19條第26條這跟原住民都有相關的問題而且也跟你們剛剛主委所說的打狗宣言的這個不謀而合我們的理念是不謀而合是跟委員說明第26條就是針對如果他之後有任何的"},{"start":8465.297,"end":8491.805,"text":"不OK受罰的他必須要受獎習課程那這是第26條那目前這個執法已經預告完成然後再做後面的法制作業有嗎有這三條有嗎第8條第19條第26條有嗎第19條是獎勵的部分那獎勵的部分基本上是我們已經有這個獎勵辦法已經完成已經是在會內作業那第26條呢保育獎期的課程要納入原住民族知識還有原住民族生物多樣性的課程"},{"start":8492.205,"end":8507.62,"text":"是跟委員說明一下就是這個的執法是已經預告完成然後現在在做法沒有我現在跟你問你的是這第19條對有26條內容是什麼內容有包含他必須要含原住民相關的這個知識跟原住民相關的內容那你們該怎麼做"},{"start":8509.201,"end":8537.578,"text":"他如果受罰之後他基本上有不同的課程要上那我們在去年的十月也開始起了一個標案就是針對這些的課程開始要編這些的教材那目前的規劃是他會有兩個小時的教材四個小時的教材跟八個小時的教材那裡面都有含教材怎麼來呃先跟呃跟委員說明是這些教材現在在走的過程裡面他有涉及原住民相關的這個部分我們會請原住民的呃專家老師跟部落的人幫我們看過那原是去年十月你知道現在園民會有建立一個知識體系嗎"},{"start":8539.139,"end":8564.966,"text":"這個也會納在這個的這個標案他們去參考的裡面那特別針對原住民用海的部分我們今年也有一個計畫是在調查整個東海岸的原住民的傳統用海所以他等於是從那個資料庫裡面他有理論的知識然後再透過今年的這個原住民用海的這個調查他會有各種不同的案例所以這些都會納在這個因為時間的關係在這邊我有三個強烈的要求好不好主委您聽一下第一個呢打狗宣言竟然強調的是傳統生態知識"},{"start":8566.966,"end":8593.282,"text":"我們希望你們拿出具體的規劃、期程還有做法第二個海洋保育法裡面的國際交流補助你們應該要編列專門的經費來支持族人怎麼樣去推廣跟交流傳統生態知識第三個海洋保育法裡面原住民知識跟原住民族生養多樣性的課程我認為你們應該要結合原住民族知識體系"},{"start":8594.483,"end":8612.655,"text":"也就是原民會現在其實已經建立了必須要由海委會教育部還有原民會你們來進行這個所謂的橫向平台要真正來落實合作跟對話可不可以我們把備案做好因為現在委外在研究我們備案出來以後跨部會會來協調"},{"start":8614.816,"end":8629.778,"text":"最後我要提醒主委蔡總統她在105年的時候她跟原住民道歉她曾經承諾過要推動原住民的自治要推動原住民的土地跟海洋海域法然後轉型政業要納入原住民可是到現在全部都飄跳"},{"start":8630.639,"end":8657.5,"text":"跳票了所以我在想既然剛剛主委您也非常贊同而且你們也簽署了這個所謂的打狗宣言要強調傳統知識保障跟維護我們真的希望拿出具體的作為然後以上可能還沒有辦法具體講述的部分我也請相關的業務同仁能夠到我的辦公室來我們到一定的進度有內容的時候我們就跟委員報告好謝謝"},{"start":8663.939,"end":8683.353,"text":"好 我們請新穎委員好 謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請主委"},{"start":8690.768,"end":8715.237,"text":"主委好管主委好今天我想很多委員都很關心我們這個海底電纜的安全的問題那當然您也有表達這個海委會是執法單位執法單位因為海底電纜它這個涵蓋的這個部會還有層面都很廣包含國安包含通訊那您也有提到說"},{"start":8716.938,"end":8740.075,"text":"已經有在做跨部會的整合 是那請問跨部會的會議是誰來主導 誰是那個主責的看項目 如果是所有的法令規章各部會負責的部分都必須要修的部分那就是政委會主持我們負責法制的政委會主持法制的就是政委 對 法制的"},{"start":8740.515,"end":8752.93,"text":"那像譬如說事發一開始的時候是我們海委會來招集那看看項目那譬如說下個禮拜要開的修電纜是誰修電纜的電纜壞了"},{"start":8756.395,"end":8773.915,"text":"電纜壞了那個技術面我們大概就是中華電信他們跟速發部去處理那譬如說下禮拜要開的是有關於海纜涉及的海域我們到底要公告多大範圍作為禁錨的區域那這個就由交通部"},{"start":8775.036,"end":8803.139,"text":"所以那個區域反而是交通部那是交通部委會不是海委會沒有 我們是執法我們就都不是權責機關所以你們是按照他們規定區域多少我們提供修法的需求然後是主管部門必須去修區域他們規定了以後你們按照那個區域來做執法所以這一次就是今年2月的這個鴻泰58號的事件那您也說你們監控了三天大概三十幾個小時"},{"start":8805.14,"end":8834.12,"text":"那现在最大问题不止三天不止有啦有啦因为它跨中间第一天后段跟第三天前段那所以你们因为很明显的就是等于是监控长达三十几个小时然后又广播七次然后都不听对都不听然后我们反而都已经监控了还让海揽被破坏所以这个就凸显出"},{"start":8835.2,"end":8854.164,"text":"我們到現場以後才破壞的警告了而且監控了但是沒辦法把他驅離沒有辦法去驅離取締就是因為法令不足所以我們很希望要重判他真的是不可原諒七次耶"},{"start":8858.166,"end":8877.405,"text":"對對對那通常警告不從我們應該就可能可以驅離甚至取締為什麼不做這個動作當時海象的問題是海象的問題今天是因為海象就算有法令也還是沒辦法取締跟驅離可是我們是實在是奮勇泛濫因為海象"},{"start":8877.945,"end":8894.757,"text":"有时候我们硬顶都得顶出去但是连顶都顶不出去的时候这个就变成我们要监控那么久本席想了解的是就算法令完备了可以取缔可以驱离也有可能因为海象我们没办法吗"},{"start":8896.801,"end":8925.307,"text":"我們基本上最近的這些案例我們基本上有的是事先會到譬如說鴻泰另外譬如說順心99是我們追到追到的案子不只順心99我們大多數都會追到現在主要本席就想建議有沒有在考慮好像有蠻多學者專家有在考慮是不是要有一個海底電纜的安全專法"},{"start":8927.612,"end":8952.375,"text":"那來統合整個的海事電信國安以及基礎設施那也包含了你們他們這個違法的時候我們是要驅離取締因為我覺得太誇張了廣播七次然後監控三十幾個小時最後我們的電纜還是被破壞了那當然我們都覺得那個船隻很故意而且很有問題"},{"start":8953.476,"end":8969.525,"text":"您重判我們也認同但是我們自己的專法在哪裡這是一個問題第二個本席想要問我們都已經看到它一直在那個區塊然後我們自己也知道底下可能有海嵐"},{"start":8970.578,"end":8986.466,"text":"有電纜其實他自己也知道因為他那個海圖會顯示所以我們給人家知道那重點就是說我們有沒有水下無人機可以去確認譬如說他一直在那裡我也不知道他有沒有破壞那我們有沒有水下無人機"},{"start":8986.886,"end":9001.071,"text":"我們目前沒有我們目前的我們大調查船有附帶一個水下無人載具將來可以調用它來用那這個東西最近行政院核定要讓我們買了但是還沒有製作出規格"},{"start":9005.532,"end":9028.508,"text":"所以未來會買這個是我們調查船附帶有那到時候調查船就可以徵用來做這個事所以那海巡還沒有海巡還沒有但是國海院有我剛剛講的這個是我們的國海院所以我海委會呢已經有一個水下溫宅局同樣都是海委會的而且他本來調查船這種時候有可以出去"},{"start":9029.909,"end":9053.07,"text":"那所以這個海底電纜的安全專法有沒有考慮設專法目前因為權責不在我們所以我這裡沒有在考慮這個方向我沒有提專法為什麼呢因為它其實涉及的都是非常專業的各部會的專業所以我們一方面有電信管理法"},{"start":9053.731,"end":9059.048,"text":"那本席請教你海底店究竟是誰管轄誰是管轄者"},{"start":9060.312,"end":9082.141,"text":"它歸NCC跟速發部的部分比較多所以這個必須要明確問問還有誰可以進行相關的修正但是航安的部分是交通部那我們是執法我們都執法所以我們還是希望我們海底電可以說是我們台灣通訊的生命線千萬不能讓這個生命線長長斷長長斷這就是國安危機"},{"start":9086.902,"end":9111.249,"text":"接著還有一點點時間本席想要請教去年本席也有請教過主委我們有在規劃無人機是空中的無人機我們也看到原本預計的114年度就是今年要驗收的無人機突然出問題廠商無法履約"},{"start":9112.069,"end":9138.503,"text":"你們又重新開始所以本席想請教你這個無人機第二代的無人機計畫經費是兩億多嘛兩億一千八百三十五萬七千元那現在你重新修正計畫你的經費的部分我請署長說明前面執行了一兩年結果最後這個無疾而終因為我們要求的那個功能他最後做不出來那我請署長說明"},{"start":9142.974,"end":9150.261,"text":"這邊跟委員說明那我們那個計劃是112年開始到114要開始交今年要交市價那我們在整個測試的過程當中因為他沒有辦法達到我們想要需求滯空兩小時的這個時間所以這個部分經過所有的法律程序以後因為這個合約最後他沒辦法履約最後解約那按照解約的話我們經費是怎麼樣"},{"start":9170.338,"end":9186.244,"text":"原本兩億多嘛現在那廠商拿多少最後這個解約以後因為他還要做相關的這些賠償我們知道我們現在要重新起案的也是兩億多只有差了將近五千萬左右"},{"start":9187.188,"end":9213.101,"text":"所以用原來的錢再補五千萬然後我們重新四月嘛我看你們四月提修正計劃好那我們當然我們對就是海委會我們海巡這裡我們的配備我們一定支持那當然我們也希望這個國家的計劃我們不希望一再的落空所以這個部分我們大家一起加油好謝謝"},{"start":9217.116,"end":9232.438,"text":"好我們請陳培宇委員好謝謝主席我就直接請海保署好了可以更直接的就不勞煩主委了謝謝來請海保署"},{"start":9237.216,"end":9261.426,"text":"好呃是署長是署長你好我想要直接跟您討論關於離島是金門還有馬祖也就是連江縣他們過往在遇到海廢的問題喔來下一張呃基本上這些海廢喔其實是我們在現場實地拍攝照的照的照片那根據相關的統計資料每一年相關要清出來在金門還有連江也就是馬祖清出來的海廢喔"},{"start":9261.986,"end":9286.423,"text":"其實超過數百噸我想這個數字你們一定非常非常的清楚可是我覺得最大的困境就是目前這些海廢其實有大量是來自於中國沿岸的生活廢棄物還有來自海上的航道儀器物當然也有來自我們台灣本島的漂流物我甚至在馬祖的座談會當中我聽到當地非常非常多的"},{"start":9287.421,"end":9307.351,"text":"民宿業者或者是當地在做生意的或是當地的住民告訴我們他們每年都要發動非常多志工一起參與這個清除海廢而這個清除海廢的工作它其實是大量的勞務而且呢如果不去做這些事情我們以為它會隨海洋漂走其實是不會的來下一張"},{"start":9308.211,"end":9323.709,"text":"那也因為有這個問題呢我們其實知道金門他們過去說要把這個海漂垃圾還給中國他們說要用浮桶的方法把它帶回去馬祖也曾經多次公開呼籲說垃圾應該要回歸來源因為呢這麼大量的離島海廢其實"},{"start":9324.83,"end":9342.521,"text":"大量不成比例的都是在承擔所謂他國海廢的處境我們認為這件事情我們到底可以怎麼想像因為這不是你們單方面可以解決的就像剛剛徐新英委員說海嵐這件事情其實也不是海委會單方面可以解決的如果有中國敵意刻意屢次入侵"},{"start":9343.021,"end":9370.561,"text":"然后破坏台湾海垒你们怎么做更多的海防兄弟往前线冲其实也不能够确保不会一再发生所以我们认真来看海废这件事情我们希望它可以还给离岛居民一个干净的海洋因为那是他们的生活空间而且那些海废确实已经造成生活的困扰我们看一下你们的资料113年度海漂底废弃物还有微型塑胶分布调查的分析计划里面"},{"start":9371.161,"end":9394.567,"text":"你們有針對台灣的海洋海廢還有海底的廢棄物進行定點調查還有採樣分析可是你們目前的計畫只有針對北部還有外海的海域沒有針對離島做完整的中長期監測那離島的長期資料其實一直都是不夠的我不知道我們有沒有機會建立一個關於屬於專屬於離島的海廢監測指標還有回報系統"},{"start":9399.562,"end":9415.522,"text":"可不可以請您簡單回應一下跟委員這邊報告一下就是目前這邊委員收到之前的這個資料包含定點或者是採用分析比較是剛提到說本島這邊最海漂或者是海底的這個部分那特別針對金門跟馬祖或者是離島的這個部分我們其實今年也開始"},{"start":9416.242,"end":9432.218,"text":"今年是指2025年開始啟動對就是我們的中長城的計畫那也配合這些離島的離島建設方案因為這些離島基本上他們都有離島建設方案那他們離島建設方案裡面其實也都有跟海洋污染的部分有關所以他們其實也都有海汙水質跟海廢這三個部分"},{"start":9433.339,"end":9449.506,"text":"可是你老先生方案很多錢其實撥到地方上去使用的不是嗎是但是因為他會有一部分的錢是需要中央的同時的配合款所以基本上我們也會同步的看過他們的計劃所以我們也希望把這個部分去導到說大家會有共同的這個目標跟方向所以"},{"start":9450.946,"end":9479.55,"text":"那如果他有中央跟地方的配合我认为我们海保署就应该加强管控的力道或者是协助他们订定真的更完整的计划那如同您刚刚说书长您刚刚说这个相关计划可不可以会后给我们先给我们办公室我觉得要确认我们如何协助地方政府完成居民他们对于这个海费的想象跟许愿因为这真的会影响到他们的生活那可是我认为如果我们还是没有相关指标其实还是有危险所以我们希望会后你给我们的资料里面我们共同来研究一下好"},{"start":9479.85,"end":9497.371,"text":"好那接下來我們想要問一下其實你們在113到116有訂定一個污染防治劑接近海洋計畫我相信你非常熟悉但是我要再次強調這個計畫裡面我們目前所看到的資料你們希望推動地方參與鼓勵回收再利用專案性補助這都是一個沒有針對離島"},{"start":9498.712,"end":9526.513,"text":"跟委員這邊說明這個其實有針對離島就是像我們提到說我們的前海戰將或者是環保艦隊這個其實都有離島所以金門跟馬祖其實也都有環保艦隊跟前海戰將的培訓那基本上那個環保艦隊就是從他們開始出去就必須把自己的垃圾帶回來然後當要去清的時候他們也會跟著一起清那前海戰將基本上我們是培訓一些潛水相關的人在碰到有些海廢的時候其實這些有技術或者經過訓練的人他們就會下去清"},{"start":9528.394,"end":9555.006,"text":"這個也是在113到116這個計畫當中但是在根據離島的部分我剛剛講針對離島的部分我認為應該跟北部跟所謂的台灣的海域其實是不一樣的那這個部分你們有研究在加強嗎是這個部分我們會特別針對離島有在基本上就是像大象可能會相同就是比如說針對剛說的前海沾漿或是這些的大象會相同可是特別針對離島因為像剛委員這邊有提到他們的垃圾如果清出來之後他要運回來基本上是非常"},{"start":9555.586,"end":9581.604,"text":"非常困難的所以我們會有特別的那個回收或是處理的方式比如說像大型的那個那個保麗龍他就會必須要冷壓或者是這個一樣是中央要跟地方合作嗎是對我們這邊也有相關的經費補助所以可是相關經費補助如果又只是落於中央給錢然後沒有積極的監督地方政府或是協助地方政府的角色我們只是把錢花完但是我們看不到實質的效果所以在這個部分是不是也可以會後提供資料給我們"},{"start":9582.284,"end":9599.592,"text":"或者是我們就直接來約開會確認我們目前所服務的金馬地區真的有確實落到不管是在海洋污染潔淨防治計畫或者是海漂的部分好不好好 那我想這兩個海洋的議題就麻煩你們帶回去那我們辦公室之後會再積極跟你們約開會好 謝謝好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 我們請林建啟委員"},{"start":9618.72,"end":9621.905,"text":"主席 普院同仁大家好我們請主委好 請主委"},{"start":9630.719,"end":9647.806,"text":"主委好本期今天就整個海委會的一個本期關心的相關的這個業務來跟您做一個討論那首先是有關於跨部會協調性的問題那因為整個海洋政策其實是我們海委會這邊來主導但是我們知道在實際執行上"},{"start":9649.207,"end":9658.298,"text":"其實還有各部會的一些相關比較專業的這個業務所以本席這邊有關心這個整個海洋政策跟海委會主導的這樣一個平台目前的一個狀況所以我們知道呢在整個這個高"},{"start":9667.189,"end":9683.23,"text":"海洋的相關事務裡面呢那麼藍色經濟跟港口的物流目前是交通部在主導的那漁業經濟呢應該是在農業部那海洋環境的污染呢跟海岸災防的這個防治又環境部還有內政部"},{"start":9684.051,"end":9706.901,"text":"那麼國防安全跟海事工程又牽扯到經濟部、國防部、科技部那本席剛從另外一個委員會過來因為你們要成立那個國家海洋科技研究中心那其實很多人關心的都國安的問題但本席這邊也關心到海洋專業知識的公共性的問題所以這邊其實你們是海洋治理的一個中枢機關"},{"start":9707.841,"end":9721.21,"text":"那國家海洋政策白皮書也是你們擬的那所以除了這個召開協調會議然後擬定相關的這個白皮書以外呢那你們也提到了2050在整個淨林航運路徑圖還有智慧海港的轉型還有淨海綠能的一個規劃等等的項目那這個這些項目要怎麼來落實有誰來落實"},{"start":9732.998,"end":9750.251,"text":"那麼在國家是不是有納入國家的中長期的預算還是目前還在政策構想的層級本行剛才林林總總把這個整個的分工但是也有分工的專業性可是你又是一個主導的單位那實際的執行上我們都知道這個政府的一個分工我不知道你們這邊目前的一個狀態是如何"},{"start":9752.733,"end":9769.975,"text":"跟委員報告當初海洋委員會他到底是要是海洋部或者是海洋委員會經過非常複雜跟坎坷的激盪的過程那最後呢定位為海洋委員會而且編制高度的小"},{"start":9772.698,"end":9793.79,"text":"因此它就被定位成為是協調整合的機關但是海巡跟海保跟國海院它擔負比較多的食物的主管業務比如說海洋保育的話它就是屬於我們野生動物保育跟海洋保育的主管機關"},{"start":9795.872,"end":9818.448,"text":"海巡當然就有國安治安平安上面海岸巡防法是主管但是他所執法的業務也都分散在其他的業務主管機關所以協調整合跟海巡執法跟海委會的協調整合比較是當初的定位"},{"start":9819.288,"end":9841.807,"text":"因为业务发展的结果慢慢的我们会有比较多协调整合的结果变成刚刚委员所讲的比较大的一个主导性但是那个主导性还是建立在我们的协调整合上就我刚刚讲我们刚刚一直在讲的要修传播法就不是我们来我们的业务"},{"start":9842.487,"end":9862.821,"text":"要修傳播法就是交通部的業務但是主導性我們相當的強因為我們在執法的過程就告訴你說AIS的問題你不能不修了所以這個部分我們的主導還是經由這樣的過程來產生基本上包括剛剛所講的綠能的產業"},{"start":9864.702,"end":9882.108,"text":"我們基本上還是以經濟部才是業務主管的部門但是當有中央跨部會需要協調整合中央的地方政府需要協調整合或者是民間跟政府需要協調整合來找我們海委會的時候我們就會啟動個案的協調整合"},{"start":9885.109,"end":9890.694,"text":"那當我們 因為當初本來是海洋部的這個構想最後變成海委會的時候就有目前的這些狀況那我們在這些狀況當中我們盡量的把它做到最好看起來就是一個協調整合的這個平台所以有許多的這個相關的主導的業務那台灣作為一個島國那四面環海"},{"start":9913.473,"end":9920.1,"text":"看起來我們離整個海洋國家的距離還有一大段但是我們漸漸的用中長期計畫把那個主導性慢慢的就建立了很大所以剛才本席這邊提到的這個2050的這個那幾個比如說海運路線等等你們都已經納入國家中長期而且有預算的一個編列嗎"},{"start":9933.153,"end":9952.927,"text":"譬如說科研 我們就把 譬如說近鄰轉型的學專的補助 科專的補助計畫我們就從零預算 現在變成好幾千萬的預算所以我們就藉由這一種中長期計畫我們慢慢的在建立一些主導性"},{"start":9953.804,"end":9968.361,"text":"那謝謝就麻煩主委把剛才本席這邊講的那幾個方向那你們中長期目前有具體的在預算上還有時程的規劃上的相關計畫給本席補充好嗎那最後一個問題本席知道您也蠻關心海洋教育文化的"},{"start":9969.002,"end":9984.702,"text":"所以我讲的比较对不起刚才那个部分补充一点所以目前海岸灾后的管理是属于营建署那污水的追踪又环境部所以你们有没有一个海域灾防的规划海域的污染是归我们"},{"start":9986.703,"end":10006.109,"text":"但是要處理源頭的時候海域的災防當中的房屋也是歸我們這個整體性的系統有沒有可能由海委會這邊來處理但是如果是海難的話如果海域的災害是海難的話它的主導災害防救體系裡面就是中央就是交通部門"},{"start":10009.891,"end":10035.366,"text":"這邊一個比較具體的問題主要的問題跟建議我知道你們在國研院或是你們的海洋研究中心的海洋教育也有一些相關的推動然後是不是可以給本席一些補充就是你們跟教育部的一個整合的平台跟目前大家各司其職的一個內容跟規劃那另外本席這邊很具體的提出來"},{"start":10036.666,"end":10063.94,"text":"你們有沒有可能來設置海洋教育場域認證的地點然後提供校外教學交通補助跟師資配套的相關的這個支持呢我們來研究好不好我們在推動的海洋科學序列的這個OSS的海洋素養教育的這一塊我們當然就有我們的工作的方案那委員所說我們再進一步來了解好的謝謝主委那就請會後補充相關的資料跟做一些討論好謝謝"},{"start":10065.521,"end":10066.641,"text":"好 我們請吳清明委員好 主席一位同仁請我們還有一位我們的管主委好 請主委委員好好 主委好 主委"},{"start":10089.615,"end":10102.943,"text":"我早上看了很多委員大家都在關心這個海底電纜的破壞那已經有很多次了包含我們台灣對澎湖這一線還有台灣對馬祖這一線這兩線"},{"start":10106.717,"end":10131.497,"text":"都是遭到我們的船隻破壞那這都是我們海巡在起地的方面海巡真的是很辛苦啦我早上看了大家也都是很肯定所以我們管制委你帶領海巡真的我們還是要再強硬一點讓維護我們國家的安全這是我們的重重之重"},{"start":10132.778,"end":10157.171,"text":"那這裡針對說因為海底電纜的破壞性這大家都知道但是本席在這邊因為我們是北部選出來的因為我看我們的國家船舶實驗室興建是在興達港也是我們高雄嘛"},{"start":10159.472,"end":10169.715,"text":"我是跟主委分享一下,是不是我們北部有基隆、淡水、土地因為海巡很多,都是總部會設在高雄嘛那我們這邊是不是也可以來設一個分部讓我們的海巡弟兄,也不要說兩地這樣奔波也不好吧"},{"start":10183.038,"end":10202.483,"text":"那你在北部這邊我是提議說我們也是可以來設個分部也好就是船某的實驗室西龍那邊應該附地也不成問題淡水這邊應該也是OK吧那是行政法人啦行政法人"},{"start":10203.343,"end":10213.527,"text":"現在就是要有土地還有買土如果有土地還有買土吃對我們來說我們都很高興現在也都很欠所以這就要下去研究我們現在在找北部的買土要來井家找也找也都找到群峰去才有所以群峰以外的地方有沒有可能有什麼買土什麼土地給我們用"},{"start":10231.793,"end":10248.131,"text":"我們還真是不太了解,還有很多位置是要找到群眾才有的是啊,我說我們都著重在高雄,所以說在這個部分是不是可以我們如果是海保署,海保署其實是很需要分部啦"},{"start":10251.013,"end":10264.736,"text":"不然就看海保署有可能來發展看海保署也太小如果海保署有需要分部的時候來瞭解這裡請委員也提供我們找到什麼地方有問題跟我們說好這是我的建議希望主委你給我們納入考量好不好是 好再來我講"},{"start":10278.018,"end":10280.661,"text":"現在我聽王美惠委員指示說有兩部船已經要航船,經費又有問題這都很嚴重,我今天看中華民國海巡室的船"},{"start":10298.642,"end":10313.053,"text":"錢又沒辦法拿到 還有園地 民間也有困擾啦 準風他們做準的人的負擔 我們站在那裡 他們的手柄也給我們站在那裡是啊 所以說這是很嚴重的問題啊 錢也沒辦法找時間拿到這是民間也有困難啦 對對對 在我們來說 實在是很可惜我們的力量也減少啦 因為他們都有照我們的"},{"start":10322.98,"end":10331.949,"text":"規格程序在做的 本來11月高準的沒那麼高10月11月的年底 年底兩下大準沒那麼高這有時候去做生工業者 他的資金的問題放不下也有可能會產生很多後遺症 尤其我們是一個國家 國家的東西"},{"start":10347.819,"end":10357.005,"text":"還沒辦法如期來解決自己很嚴重的問題這就是標明看起來不會說你現在五十多歲了把你抬一折 要算什麼 怎麼會要求但是事實不是這樣我五十多歲裡面三十九個月就是像這種的時間久了要錢給人家對 站久了金錢要付錢的是啊這去抬就變成我錢就沒多高了嗯"},{"start":10376.796,"end":10385.219,"text":"所以這些都要去缺乏現在就沒辦法 現在又找不到方法現在也還怕說六百多億如果要賺不知道要賺多少我們賺多少這六百多億如果要求我們要賺如果說要賺二十八%如果說要賺二十八%很恐怖現在六百億下來我們如果分配就二十八%"},{"start":10403.085,"end":10407.604,"text":"所有解凍所有的凍結案中台也要報告"},{"start":10409.065,"end":10426.275,"text":"對啊,那一棟就沒意義啊,因為那一棟都要裝台啊,還沒搞,還要台頭回來現在就用的,所以很困擾的,我們現在也,譬如說電風一鍋煲煮到現在我們也都還沒下去耶,因為你就沒沒收,就壞了壞了,壞壞壞了,台灣話叫做壞壞壞了,選擇未決啦,不是好像說,我們的海洋委員會,生水補肥都是獨特的問題啦,"},{"start":10435.701,"end":10448.592,"text":"很多我們的醫生都瘦剪 很多也是大家都跳腳所以這都是未來都要去確保所以因為畢竟人人是比我們還順 結果你又沒辦法如期來護人的錢 這都做成困擾了還有一點 我要來好 主委你先解釋 我就問海巡署署長委員好好 署長"},{"start":10462.927,"end":10470.509,"text":"針對齁,我講齁,我好好關心講齁,我們的東沙齁,東沙現在我們海巡署的我們的同仁多少有在那?呃,詳細數字我可以保留一下,但是,將近三百。齁,這樣齁,你說齁,在三百齁,你說齁,在預算的方面齁,現在已經都縮減齁,他們講,"},{"start":10484.881,"end":10505.289,"text":"放假的期間我們過去都是有民航機在照嘛你現在政府喔考慮說民航機沒辦法照但是你要借錢回來你只要錢就要照一天啊民航機一小時所以說喔這差距太大這也是你要輸定要去缺貨啊"},{"start":10506.514,"end":10526.665,"text":"因為這邊的採旅費,國內旅費部分,光東沙、東南沙就貸600多萬,就是說我們到今年的9月1號、10月,我們沒有給民航班,所以我們用客輪去代替,這客輪就要遭一天,22點鐘到24點鐘,所以這時間的"},{"start":10530.107,"end":10535.692,"text":"優等 營用動員的辦法 第二點如果那時候海上不好 客輪沒開我們動員沒辦法所以這個營用很大"},{"start":10542.079,"end":10548.145,"text":"這書中這你要去繪補 是不然你協調說我們的軍方這邊會用的他說他們會用的老母雞過去我看過去還有老母雞可以背不然你這樣做 我想說這是他們的權力你繪補的時候來回就要兩天"},{"start":10562.02,"end":10562.48,"text":"我們請蔣冠廷委"},{"start":10596.994,"end":10597.939,"text":"你好我們請主委"},{"start":10608.445,"end":10629.715,"text":"主委好我看最近很多這種灰色輕勞那我們的海委會海巡署真的都辛苦了但是除了辛苦之外我們還有一部分想要請教也是跟最近美方的合作的可能性昨天我在質詢國防部部長的時候我有提到說現在美國特別是在造船業他們希望是復興造船業"},{"start":10630.535,"end":10646.521,"text":"那針對中國在海上的侵擾不管是透過他們軍事準軍事非軍事各種手段那已經是非常嚴峻的問題那在這樣嚴峻的問題下我們有沒有足夠的船艦來去應對我想這是一個大災問"},{"start":10647.381,"end":10662.978,"text":"因為看起來以中國的造船數量跟他們的造船實力如同我昨天引據CSIS的這個資訊也可以看得出來他大概是佔了全球大概53%那剩下就由韓國日本跟其他國家來去負擔這個船艦的製造"},{"start":10664.86,"end":10692.648,"text":"就我所知報告中有提到說我們113年完成15艘然後58艘艇要交付高緯度的遠洋巡護船也已經動工但是我也觀察到海巡署我們現在轄下的船艦1000噸以上大型船艦大概只有14艘在2000噸到3000噸的對比中國海警的擁有的艦艇大概數量是我國的10倍"},{"start":10693.388,"end":10715.622,"text":"也就是說在這樣的狀況之下我們要推動國建國造我們強調本土的產業鏈的建構但是同時我們也知道說在這樣的數量比例如此的不均衡的狀況之下那跟主要的盟國合作是必須且一定要盡速去做的想請教主委有沒有跟這些相關的單位來接觸過然後討論過這樣的議題"},{"start":10718.639,"end":10739.656,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們跟多邊的國家有進行合作但是合作的項目裡面要來包括說能夠補我們艦船艇數量不足的這個部分可能會比較困難我們目前合作的領域"},{"start":10740.576,"end":10759.916,"text":"因為這個都涉及領海領階區主權這相關的考量但是我們鄰國甚至於遠自歐洲而來對於台灣海峽作為自由航行公海"},{"start":10761.377,"end":10776.242,"text":"這樣的一個共識是有的那這個部分其實以去年來講大概有十個國家十個國家的艦船的軍艦航行經過那我現在講的主要是針對製造的量跟製造的部分我們剛剛提到船艦量比較不夠不知道海巡還有沒有這樣的構想"},{"start":10788.246,"end":10811.347,"text":"就是合作這樣子跟MODO合作特別是我們的造船當然是以國艦國造為優先但是如果未來我們新的造艦計畫遇到說國內的製造的量能情況都已經滿載的情況那我們既然是開國際標當然也有可能譬如說我們的調查船"},{"start":10812.128,"end":10831.267,"text":"都很有可能會是國外去標到都有可能但是海巡目前還是以國艦國造為我們的主軸我的意思是說以我們現在的狀況我們的海巡我們的要講艦隊也好我們的這樣子的能量"},{"start":10832.549,"end":10846.584,"text":"它數量是夠還是不夠我想當然是不夠的因為面對中國這麼多就算我們國產我們全力去推動我們的產業鏈但是還是有一定的局限就是我們沒有辦法製造那麼多的產業但是如同我們剛才講的"},{"start":10847.905,"end":10862.919,"text":"雖然說中國他建造的數量是我們的數以十倍但是如果我們納入我們同盟的朋友比方說日本比方說韓國比方說美國那我們的產量就可以倍增我的意思是說除了我們協助在維修上面也好"},{"start":10863.419,"end":10884.236,"text":"在造船材料模具電供系統方面提供我們的能量讓我們的盟友能夠建造更多建造更快之外我們也要思考說怎麼樣在全球的產業鏈特別是跟我國比較友好的國家能夠讓他們協助我們也擴大我們的產業鏈我們講的產業鏈不是只有製造而已甚至我一直在強調就是說我們購買"},{"start":10887.583,"end":10903.201,"text":"建造有沒有可能租用那確保說我們的這個在海巡的這些艦艇數量能夠有效的應對這是第一個部分所以我昨天在問這個顧部長我說有沒有想到要跟美方合作"},{"start":10904.102,"end":10926.629,"text":"他說現在有一些東西沒有辦法揭露這個資訊但是他們有這樣的意向所以我在這邊是想問一下主委有沒有意向跟美方合作我們提供我們的這些技術也好共同去計畫也好共同去生產也好是不是把這個市場做大能夠增加我們在海巡在我們在海洋上面能夠面對灰色侵擾的能力"},{"start":10930.629,"end":10946.337,"text":"如果是去租用船就涉及也是人的問題那我們每一年能夠培訓起來的人力也導致於我們造船的速度也等於影響到我們造船的速度"},{"start":10947.157,"end":10960.813,"text":"所以在這個部分要來進行國際合作的時候又有區域穩定跟國安層級的問題那這個部分決策的層級可能就不在於我們海巡或者是海委會"},{"start":10962.134,"end":10989.733,"text":"那也是一個涉及主權行使上面的國際合作的課題所以這個部分比較高度的複雜性我們會後有機會再跟委員多請教多探討看看委員的願景跟藍圖如果比較具體值得我們來學習研議考量的方向我們會來了解"},{"start":10991.414,"end":11015.651,"text":"好 謝謝主委 謝謝好 我們請區副委員謝謝主席 有請我們管主委好 請主委局委員好"},{"start":11016.392,"end":11044.829,"text":"主委好主委我想請教一下這個因為這陣子我們一直有發現這個在我們這個屏東仿山的這個海嵐區也有一艘坦尚尼亞的貨輪還有另外一艘柯麥隆的一個貨輪滯留半年以上那我想這個是一個非常嚴重的一個問題啦那尤其我們現在目前這個群一輪這個持續危害國安的事件我想也引起國人的高度關注那請教主委我們有沒有掌握相關的一個資訊"},{"start":11046.153,"end":11061.938,"text":"我們對於這些全輿輪分級以後管理那海上長期滯留的目標我們都有相當程度的掌握那特定的這一艘船我們有掌握那掌握的細節如果委員有需要的話我們請署長來跟委員做說明好不好謝謝"},{"start":11064.865,"end":11079.527,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告那因為這輛超船就是就是我們監控的東京備忘乳裡面96艘的其中但是他是被我們評估為沒有威脅性的那第二部分就是他滯留在那個地方我們"},{"start":11080.328,"end":11095.922,"text":"除了靠近我們的水域以後我們會請航港局以船機構管理方式來廣播它離開那不行的話我們的海巡的艦船你就會上去看那這兩艘其中有一艘我們登檢過兩次那基本上上面沒有任何的問題"},{"start":11096.912,"end":11123.25,"text":"都有去登檢這個部分還是要請諸位多注意畢竟這個國安的問題也是國人很關注那我想還有也應該拿出一個強硬的態度來做處理就是我剛剛跟委員報告就說因為分級所以我們就有掌握那雖然說他分級沒有危險性我們還是去登檢兩次了還是要謹慎處理"},{"start":11127.772,"end":11156.026,"text":"主委那這個部分因為我的選區有我們的小琉球那目前小琉球也是我們台灣很熱門的一個觀光的一個景點那每年大概有一百多萬的遊客那我想當然過去我們這個周邊的海域包含我們的海委會也好還有我們的大鵬灣管理處還有屏東縣政府我想大家針對這個觀光資源的保護也都應該要盡一份的責任但是我想去年我們監察院"},{"start":11156.567,"end":11166.537,"text":"有針對這個小琉球的自然生態保育的部分有針對我們還會有提出一個糾正那主委我想這個小琉球的這個海域的一個"},{"start":11167.825,"end":11194.45,"text":"生物的多樣性還有甚至我們一個觀光資源的保護我想主委這邊是不是應該加強來多做一些作為各位委員報告我在主持我們海委會的委員會議的時候可以說對風景管理處其實是給很大的壓力因為我也認為小琉球的生態承載量這件事情目前掌控的程度還有可以精進的地方"},{"start":11195.11,"end":11213.738,"text":"虽然医务主管部门不在海委会但是我都透过委员会议要求一定要做生态承载量的调查重新去估算每日的可以容纳的容售的观光的人口"},{"start":11214.418,"end":11237.544,"text":"那目前這個數字我們認為說對於生態承載量而言負擔還是很重這是一點另外就是說對於潮間帶的管理的部分我們過去也經過協調整合那屏東縣政府也非常的關心那晚近甚至於屏東縣政府對於這個潮間帶的管理都還有進一步想要化這個靜置區的計畫我們也都有參與在開會"},{"start":11244.266,"end":11269.483,"text":"當然它受損就是珊瑚的覆蓋率受到影響這個部分確實是有但是總體來講我們在這個部分是真的是不斷的在朝向改善的方向它是朝改善的方向在走但是我們是希望能夠保護的更多"},{"start":11270.408,"end":11284.825,"text":"對但是如果這個生態這個美景不見了我想遊客也不會去這也是我們必要跨部會來整合的一個部分那依主委的高度應該是這個來帶領這個我們相關的單位大家一起來努力我們非常重視這一塊謝謝委員關心"},{"start":11289.911,"end":11305.707,"text":"另外今年農曆年節過後我想我這邊也接到很多起我們遠洋的漁民甚至外籍漁工在作業的時候因為生病那必須請我們這個海巡的同仁來做救援"},{"start":11306.414,"end":11327.726,"text":"那這邊也特別感謝這個我們海巡的同仁都在第一時間能夠跟我們的漁業署能夠搭配那最快的時間能夠這個救援不過我覺得這個在處理上面因為有畢竟這個我們跟國搜中心跟漁業署這個通報之間的一個有時候一個資訊的落差所以這部分是不是應該搭一個平台來一起來努力"},{"start":11328.38,"end":11351.656,"text":"我們目前有平台我再來瞭解委員所說的哪一個個案在資訊上造成落差這個我也很驚訝因為基本上這個平台要很順暢然後要很精確我會來瞭解因為有時候這些路途比較那個海上的時間比較長那我們必須要很精準的掌握到我們國收甚至海巡署的船艦什麼時候可以接到這個"},{"start":11352.978,"end":11358.132,"text":"這個生病的一個漁民趕快把他後送到我們的本島來就醫啦這個時間上有一些落差"},{"start":11359.942,"end":11380.297,"text":"像我們前幾天就是上個禮拜才來回一千多海里去介護一位中風的船長回來那跟委員報告就是說其實我也希望委員來共同來協助我的理想的構想是外交部跟農業部門對於"},{"start":11382.859,"end":11409.085,"text":"我們補助進港的費用然後或者是去找好的保險制度來開設讓我們的漁船我們的船東有能力讓我們的這些遇到發生事情的時候可以就近在就近的第三國趕快就近去就醫像我們最近有的是他可以去關島就近就醫的"},{"start":11411.306,"end":11423.14,"text":"都不願意主要是因為醫療費用那麼高然後進港也要費用交通也要費用所以這個部分我們來回一趟光油錢就600萬600萬我要是成為"},{"start":11427.345,"end":11447.744,"text":"外交跟農業部門漁業部門的補助費用下去的話什麼費用都夠啊所以但是呢就卡在制度面所以這個部分也要來突破那我們已經要求召開會議協調但是協調的結果還是沒有辦法全部突破為什麼呢因為"},{"start":11449.065,"end":11474.926,"text":"因為漁船的船員多半都非本國國籍所以我們的補助的制度就會遇到這個國籍的界限就非本國國民嘛就遇到了界限所以卡住了但是呢我最近又去公文希望再再度展開下個階段的跨部會協調整合再請委員一起來我非常認同主委的看法所以我們一起來努力畢竟這個"},{"start":11477.929,"end":11492.21,"text":"因為千里救援本來就是我一直放在心頭所以我就會不捨說實在是每天都想說你還沒回來我不去接但是要去接又不是我們的量能做得到那種糾結很深"},{"start":11493.792,"end":11511.87,"text":"尤其現在黑尾漁記有很多漁船在海上的作業隨時都有風險這部分我們希望趕快建立這樣的一個制度但是海巡這樣子千里救援的量能調度也都是困難所以我們都盡全力在做主委這個找時間我們再來整合一下好 謝謝委員請正面再回"},{"start":11539.717,"end":11551.927,"text":"主席我們主委請主委主委好辛苦了謝謝首先謝謝這個"},{"start":11555.612,"end":11581.6,"text":"我們在審查這個海洋保育法的時候這個海洋委員會給予很多的支持列政委員會都能夠共同好厲害這個法完成這個法是那對於這個法裡面有很多原住民的條款這個像第5條第8條第19條當然還有一些"},{"start":11582.679,"end":11608.095,"text":"法則的部分也有涉及到原住民相關這前面的條文那這樣這個完成這個法之後也謝謝海洋委員會到各地區辦署名會這個我都有去了解這個要謝謝當然後續就是執行那執行這個過程當中當然有一些"},{"start":11609.786,"end":11638.139,"text":"這個執法要訂定今天這個我來不及準備但是我看了你們的預告這個12345有五個執法正在預告之中有三個是到5月26另外就是有兩個是到6月那我之所以特別提就是"},{"start":11639.332,"end":11666.395,"text":"當然因為很多這個鄉親不見得瞭解這個預告的程序所以不見得會去上網當然如果有相關的這些意見的話就是請這個我們海洋委員會盡量給予採納好那我們看這個海洋保育法這個第八條當然從第八條裡面"},{"start":11669.28,"end":11689.739,"text":"這個第一項很重要的就是中央主管機關得救海洋生態系統有特別保護必要且未經其他主管機關化設為海洋保護期者化定為海洋庇護期這個部分是一個很重要的條文"},{"start":11690.658,"end":11718.529,"text":"而這個條文裡面我有說一直要怎麼去釐清你們跟那個海岸管理法的那個界限不曉得你們有沒有跟那個內政部或是別的部會這個海域到底是從哪裡開始一般人民不清楚也許你們很清楚這個海域跟海岸"},{"start":11720.927,"end":11725.052,"text":"這個怎麼去去劃分因為也不可能去劃線"},{"start":11727.287,"end":11751.259,"text":"所以這個部分是一個你們再提書面的資料給我委員確實提到一個問題點因為海岸管理法有禁岸海域好的管理範圍的相關的條款如果到時候需要釐清的時候就會遇到這個問題本來我們在規劃的"},{"start":11756.201,"end":11771.763,"text":"海域管理法草案會涉及這些各地方政府或各級政府不同的海域管理的權責要不要統一劃歸中央我們在做草案的時候有考慮這個課題"},{"start":11773.405,"end":11794.262,"text":"但是這個課題涉及是中央地方以及中央各機關彼此之間全責要重新統整的問題我們要不要把山海裡保留給地方政府呢或者是全部收歸海域管理法中央管理呢這個問題目前因為爭議性比較大"},{"start":11797.384,"end":11813.642,"text":"所以我們海域管理法目前草案都還沒有定調所以這中間就會包含委員您提到的海岸管理法或者是其他的保護區相關的法令都一樣都有這個問題是"},{"start":11815.342,"end":11834.124,"text":"好這個謝謝就是要還是要釐清了那另外就是按照這個海洋保育法第八條這個所規定的這個第二項第二項第八條的第二項這個你們這個審議會組成了嗎"},{"start":11838.484,"end":11861.697,"text":"组成了还没还没还没对对对我们执法都还没有所以这个省议会还没有成立都还没有都还在修执法所以母法也还没有实施好对那这个就是属于第二项就是第二项要定这个办法所以这个是正在是这次的依告的好"},{"start":11862.694,"end":11888.474,"text":"那第一項跟第二項都要訂執法所以都要訂執法這個部分再請剛才我提過的我們會多注意各方面的聲音如果當初當初你們在辦說明會的時候到各地區說明會的如果他們的意見是跟這個有關係的也可以給納入我們都有回應謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11892.844,"end":11921.276,"text":"好 謝謝我們 好林俊賢 林俊賢 林俊賢委員不在何欣瓊 何欣瓊 何欣瓊委員不在陳初悦 陳初悦 陳初悦委員不在洪門凱 洪門凱 洪門凱委員不在我們請鍾嘉斌委員二主席 在場委員先進列席的政府居然所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴有請我們管碧玲 管主委好 請出位"},{"start":11927.958,"end":11941.731,"text":"主委好 辛苦了 早上在研究室裡面看各位委員對我們海委會的指教我在這裡特別也肯定我們主委在這個工作上的付出尤其是最近一些灰色地帶的滋擾我們覺得後來海巡署的處置應該是有效的嚇止這些包括盜挖沙跟海覽的行為"},{"start":11949.278,"end":11958.406,"text":"那後續可不可以請諸位簡短的說明一下後續在這兩個方面的強化作為是不是有哪些未經之處需要立法院在各種的計畫經費或是設備上的加強"},{"start":11961.732,"end":11979.323,"text":"好 謝謝委員有關於抽砂的部分抽砂船已經現在完全不來了那我們修了屠宰法以後罰則加重非常的多那這個真的嚇阻的作用就出來了過去最多的時候一年是4000多少次"},{"start":11980.203,"end":12007.987,"text":"所以這個部分我們有做到這個地步那最後一個判決也在前幾天二審的判決就是傳我們要給他沒入這個案大概卡了三年那另外有關海嵐的部分我們在處理的程序上有一個能夠更有效率處理的跨部會的國安程序那這個部分我們已經建立起來了那剩下來要做的包括修法的部分"},{"start":12008.527,"end":12027.277,"text":"那修法的部分剛剛報告的是我們在跨部會應該要修法讓他更精進的那個部分我們管理這個全野輪的方法當中他AIS的問題我們要修傳播法的部分等等"},{"start":12028.297,"end":12047.7,"text":"那22號會開第二次會議那另外我們在畫社這個海嵐範圍要去畫社要去公告那個靜茅區靜博區的這個部分是下禮拜會持續再來開會所以這些部分都有在精進"},{"start":12048.666,"end":12076.005,"text":"那就這部分您說到修法那在修法之前相關的資訊的取得是不是受通暢因為我們都知道之前的權宜輪或者說幽靈船他們可能需要港務單位提供必要的這些船舶資料那這些部分過去我也曾經質詢過交通部跟航港局那請問我們在跨部會的部分海委會要取得這些資訊因為在修法完成之前我們需要透過更多的資訊來掌握可能的潛在對象有沒有什麼困難"},{"start":12076.963,"end":12099.074,"text":"我們分兩個部分一個部分是說航港單位會給我們相關的資料那我們就建立黑名單那這個黑名單我們會分級有高度威脅的或低度威脅的所以這些資料的取得都沒有問題都沒有問題那另外是其實我們每天的監偵針系統我們每天的勤監偵系統我們每天都在海上看"},{"start":12099.694,"end":12105.578,"text":"所以那個海嵐的區域我們已經特別加以密駐的情況之下有一些狀況發生我們也會主動的發現我們也會去發現到說你滯留的船舶它不在黑名單內我們還是會關注會監控那剛剛講到針尖的能力"},{"start":12117.805,"end":12131.507,"text":"過去我在多次之前海委會的主委因為過去大部分都有海軍背景來擔任我也曾經形容海委會是我們的第二海軍又一是海巡署那這個過程當中它畢竟做一個和平的一個警戒力量過去我們有船有艦"},{"start":12133.169,"end":12153.581,"text":"那我也曾經詢問過在有人載具的部分航空器的部分有沒有計畫要去取得必要的航空器有人航空器來作為我們提升我們艱增能力在滯空時間跟監控上像日本的海上警視廳他們都有一個這樣的一個海巡機台灣我們海委會或海巡組有沒有打算要建置這樣的機動能力"},{"start":12154.824,"end":12177.532,"text":"我們目前當然是以無人機隊為主那到底要不要增加定義機有人機的部分沒有排除研議我們也都還有在研議之中那但是是以什麼樣的機制負擔什麼樣的功能目前並還沒有定案"},{"start":12179.813,"end":12207.077,"text":"我瞭解這個有人機是一個龐大的工程那在這之前你們無人機的機隊現在有懸疑機我看要補充懸疑機那麼定義機也有無人載具目前在這個長滯空時機跟短滯空時機的交互運用上你們無人機的機隊的建置計畫有沒有一個短中長程的目標未來會有中長期計畫我們正在爭取然後正在審議的過程之中目前的機隊規模大概有多少是不是署長可以幫我們做說明一下我們可能"},{"start":12208.911,"end":12210.257,"text":"形容說你可以講的部分"},{"start":12211.58,"end":12237.14,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在要準備規劃的目前現有的機型除了我們原來建置的旋翼型的以外我們現在也有各服務組都有建置自己多軸的無人機部分那這個數量容會後再跟委員報告主委我最後一點時間 佔一點時間我是要希望也跟海巡署有一個建議是現在我們無人機的運用無人載具在台灣算是還蠻關鍵上蠻先進的"},{"start":12239.102,"end":12261.816,"text":"那麼其實就算海巡署使用的這些無人機也不定義現用艦載機其實無人機它的一個交替使用呢你可以用陸基為基地如果你們海巡署能夠建立陸基為基地的長程的定義基去交錯配合我們這個艦載機來交替做成一個監控網的話這個部分是可以去思考的這個部分不用回答我只提供給您建言"},{"start":12262.276,"end":12281.654,"text":"那另外一個呢就是屬於衛星的偵測部分合成孔徑雷達現在的運用很成熟那麼很多的科研機構都有在使用我相信不管在海洋保育上或者是海面的監控上那麼這樣的一個合成孔徑雷達在現在這麼多的衛星低軌道的衛星的運用上呢它已經是有一個成熟的商用市場"},{"start":12282.375,"end":12303.631,"text":"那未來不排除海委會能夠有自己使用的這樣的一個衛星的一個時段或者一個專屬那目前呢也是可以考慮去做商用上去採購一些這種合成孔線雷達對於我們所必要的時間跟地段的監控那這兩個部分呢提供給我們主委未來在海巡業務上的做一個參考好的我們再來跟委員報告好謝謝"},{"start":12309.241,"end":12332.779,"text":"好 議員制 議員制 議員制 議員不在好登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘經語發言完畢 詢答結束委員丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日會議到此結束 現在上會"}]}},{"id":"16602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16602","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce79a2056330309a27e60f8021a25648d4af80a8cb003b9ba262f328a99ad96535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】\n【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-17T08:30:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-17T12:04:00+08:00","duration":12789,"影片長度":"03:33:09","委員發言時間":"08:30:51 - 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各位委員女士先生大家好感謝大院關切跟重視本會所提的國家海洋科技營運中心的設計條例設置條例然後優先納入這個審議的排程那本日應邀提出報告跟說明也敬請各位委員會議支持不吝指導那以下僅就條例草案的制定研究跟立法重點來進行報告"},{"start":2138.138,"end":2160.683,"text":"那有關制定原油的部分為了補足我國船模試驗的缺口增加海洋產業的國際競爭力本會國海院在111年開始執行國家船模實驗室的多功能水槽建置計畫另外為了進行全海域的基礎調查提供海洋治理跟國家安全的重要資訊國海院也在112年啟動了海洋基礎資料調查船的興建計畫"},{"start":2162.103,"end":2183.548,"text":"國家傳播實驗室已經在113年的6月開工預計在116年完工新建期間必須配置專業的人才參與工程的規劃跟操作教育訓練讓籌建跟培訓同步另外調查船的部分100噸級跟300噸級的海洋基礎資料調查船已經在113年12月開工預計在115年完工必須在開航前8個月派遣關鍵的船員跟探測技術幹部"},{"start":2192.651,"end":2215.768,"text":"駐場參與訓練來取得國際安全管理認證因應國家船模實驗室跟海洋基礎資料調查船的相關工程的籌建以及未來運作的維護需求行政院在114年3月13日通過海洋委員會所提的行政法人國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例的草案並於同日含送大院審議那立法的重點的部分呢"},{"start":2217.062,"end":2240.482,"text":"本次立法透過新設國家海洋科技營運中心來統籌管理海洋調查船以及國家船模實驗室營運中心是行政法人具有提升我國海洋科技能力以及後置海洋科技研究能量等兩大目標以及滿足完整的船模實驗需求發展本土關鍵核心技術建構國家海洋調查船隊加速"},{"start":2241.283,"end":2265.634,"text":"海域基礎資料的建置 組織彈性 留任關鍵人才等五大的效益它的內涵包括船舶實驗室可以滿足國艦商船跟特殊船舶的完整船舶的實驗需求第二個在船舶實驗室完工啟用之後我們不需要再向國外去租借試驗水槽來進行各項性能的試驗那也可以避免一些機密的資訊的外洩"},{"start":2267.95,"end":2281.628,"text":"那建構國家的海洋調查團隊執行海洋的環境調查統整海洋調查團的資源發揮國家海洋研發的能量也確保我國海洋科技優勢跟永續的發展另外也可以加速海域的基礎資料的"},{"start":2282.95,"end":2302.032,"text":"建制來提升海洋的科技研發跟海洋產業在國際的競爭優勢那麼另外藉由這個組織的一個彈性可以留任關鍵的人才來凸顯這個專業技術人力禁用培訓以留任的優勢提升施政的效力跟國家的競爭力"},{"start":2303.493,"end":2330.578,"text":"那結與本條例草案對台灣國建國造政策的推動海洋產業國際競爭力的提升全海域基礎調查的執行以及本土關鍵核心技術發展的事項而至為重要那在條例完成立法之後呢本會會具以訂定各項的規章透過適當的監督機制以及績效的評鑑制度呢來達到這個行政法院專業化以及提升效能等等的目的那敬請各位委員給予支持以及指教謝謝"},{"start":2334.246,"end":2343.401,"text":"好 謝謝副支委我們接下來請行政院人事行政總署副任市長 懷副任市長"},{"start":2347.626,"end":2368.228,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早安今天大院司法及法治內政委員會聯席會議來審查行政院行情審議的海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案本總署應要列席自告榮幸那緊究涉及本總署業務報告如下本次海洋委員會是應所屬的海洋研究船籌設"},{"start":2369.81,"end":2395.327,"text":"國家草謀實驗室跟海洋基礎調查船等需要及後置海洋科技研究能量加強我國海洋產業競爭力來規劃以行政法人國家海洋科技營運中心因為屬於執行特定公共事務具有人才專業以及符合行政法人法所設定的目的所以設置條例中對於它的設立組織運作監督以及營運解散等均有詳細的規範以落實專業治理確保國家海洋的遂行運作"},{"start":2400.59,"end":2417.818,"text":"這個設置條例草案也經過行政院相關機關會審後予以審查完略 送大院來審議 敬請會議支持那草案條例在實際審核時 委員如果有垂詢的時候本總署再詳語說明並尊重大院審議的結果那以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2422.321,"end":2439.486,"text":"好謝謝我們機關代表報告完畢相關的書面內容請各位就參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始來進行詢問由於今天是"},{"start":2440.426,"end":2464.305,"text":"本會跟內政委員會兩會來聯席會議所以成員一共有27位所以本聯席會委員詢答時間6分鐘非本聯席會委員詢答時間3分鐘都不再延長了那我們上午10點半截止發言登記我們現在請第一位登記這第一名蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":2478.988,"end":2483.45,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們就請吳政次好 吳政府委員早好 市長早 副主委好我想要詢問的 這今天我們既然是在審查這個國家海洋科技營運中心的設置條例所以我想我們就是應該來搞清楚 講清楚"},{"start":2502.438,"end":2528.434,"text":"未來我們到底設置的這個中心這個行政法人到底可以擔任什麼樣的業務然後他能夠帶來什麼樣的效應所以我們才會同意按照這個方式也按照行政院版的這個草案那我們來進行這個設置條例嘛對不對所以副主委那第一件第一個的話就請你說明一下那我們未來這個中心最重要的三大核心業務或者是還有其他這核心業務是什麼"},{"start":2533.084,"end":2554.165,"text":"這個國家海洋科技中心設置那他的業務範疇呢在剛剛的口頭報告我們有進行重點的一個說明就是一個船模實驗室對船模實驗室的營運管理然後海洋調查船的營運管理那另外有一個是科技專業人才的學助培育因為這個人才是專業性的所以他"},{"start":2555.065,"end":2570.958,"text":"將來怎麼留任啊什麼都非常的重要所以簡單講這一個行政中心這個行政法人啦這個營運中心未來設置之後最簡單的講法就是我們要把台灣的船舶研究方式留在台灣所以第一我們設置一個自己的研究實驗室"},{"start":2572.159,"end":2578.444,"text":"第二因為我們造了很多自己的船所以我們有船隊所以我們也用這個營運中心來做經營嘛有實驗室有船隊然後當然有人才所以我們留住人才這就是三大的我們的目標好可是我現在看草案的第三條這個中心的業務範圍其實這麼多項裡面您剛剛講的這個主要是包含在第二項跟第三項當中可是你再繼續看"},{"start":2598.037,"end":2614.005,"text":"這些項目跟現在國家既有的一些行政機關其實業務上是重疊的我做了一些搜尋我可以看到現在的相關研究單位裡面有國海院的海洋產業及工程研究中心它就是跟實驗室有類似的"},{"start":2614.485,"end":2635.962,"text":"然後呢這個海洋科學及資訊研究中心也一樣是在做這個科研的部分那當然更不要說後面的船舶暨海洋的研發中心就是造船的還有最重要目前其實大部分的這個國研院的海洋科技研究中心其實也都有相關的跟目前我們在做的不管是實驗室船舶的相關的研究"},{"start":2638.924,"end":2665.155,"text":"或者是船隊的研發其實都是相關的那未來你這一些工作要怎麼區分因為我想這個東西是跟我們未來的人才調度工作重複等等都是有關係的副主委你這邊怎麼回答那個國海院剛剛委員這邊有提到的國海院有幾個研究中心那國海院本身它是一個任務政策任務型的這樣子的一個研究的單位"},{"start":2665.735,"end":2678.766,"text":"那他主要任務還是要協助海洋委員會因為海洋委員會是統籌協調整理整理的海洋政策我們先我們一個人只有五分鐘六分鐘所以你可不可以稍微我再問的是你的權責會來會怎麼區分"},{"start":2680.728,"end":2703.329,"text":"好 謝謝那簡單報告就是國海院本身剛剛提到的研究中心呢他比較是隸屬於海委會然後接受海委會的一個所隸屬然後做的一些比較政策型的任務型的這樣子的一個研究調查那另外呢在這個目前的這個海洋科技營運中心這個設置條例呢他重點在調查船"},{"start":2703.829,"end":2724.268,"text":"跟這個船模實驗室的營運的部分那另外剛剛提到像那個國科會這個國師院底下的這個海洋科技的這個中心呢他比較是跟學術研究就是國學術研究然後這些需求比較是個案性的所以這個權責上是可以做區隔的有些是比較政策"},{"start":2724.969,"end":2738.464,"text":"位階稍微高一點的然後有些是個案執行面的那我們的設置今天的這個草案是主要是for船模實驗室跟這個調查船當然也會受這個監督單位跟督導單位的一些指示來辦理相關的"},{"start":2739.926,"end":2765.106,"text":"其實我覺得沒有非常的清楚啦不過我大概可以了解我舉個例子來講的話過去這個經濟部加交通部合資成立的這個財團法人船舶暨海洋研發中心我們看到他的業務就是有船舶工程規劃工程設計這就是跟國建國造是有關係的嘛那你這個國研院下面這個國研院國科會的國研院台灣海洋科技研究中心是目前唯一有的這個科管科研船的單位"},{"start":2768.849,"end":2779.419,"text":"所以我本來要問的是說那現在我們新的單位出來了你的權責怎麼分因為這個權責我覺得會涉及到工作有沒有重複會不會有同職競爭甚至是統籌協調將來是誰在上面誰在下面不過你剛剛的意思應該是說未來這些現有的單位都會繼續做但他們只做政策研究的部分至於實際上的船"},{"start":2792.13,"end":2802.757,"text":"怎麼做 造船的部分 把船蓋出來從研究到製造 還有未來的經營就會都是我們這個新的今天的營運中心的工作所以您認為這個是很可以區分的 對嗎是這個意思"},{"start":2807.52,"end":2830.828,"text":"白話文因為我們的質詢其實很多民眾會看他才會理解為什麼國家在現在本來已經有研究海研究船了還要再加一個單位好那我們希望如果可以這樣的話是增強我們的國際實力船舶研究但最重要的我覺得是人才流用的這部分因為我們可以看到過去其實有很多國機國造國艦國造因為是單項計劃計劃結束以後錢就不夠了沒有錢不夠經費以後這些人才因為做過案子"},{"start":2837.49,"end":2863.104,"text":"訓練好了 結果沒有後續的案子之後反而人才會流到國家去這個經國號戰機就是一個最明顯的例子嘛所以我反而是希望 會會 委會可以向行政院爭取更多的計畫 經費 預算讓我們這個行政中心 既然已經做了就要把它做好 而且可以長久的用不然我看你們的預算其實比之前現有的單位都還要少啊"},{"start":2864.578,"end":2892.929,"text":"就是未來我們在規劃包括人力的需求上面我們現在其實都有在編估還有人才的職能的訓練內涵也都已經國海院都已經做了相關的一些的設施對啊因為我看你才爭取3點多億結果其他的單位加一加都比你現在爭取的還要還要多啊因為我們現在在蓋那個那個船舶實驗室跟駕船你就說你會爭取啦委員幫忙啦對不對我都已經在幫你爭取預算了你還沒有對啊還沒有接求這就實在是你看院長笑成這樣"},{"start":2895.089,"end":2906.813,"text":"好啦 那因為時間的關係 我們可以繼續討論那希望這個中心呢 可以發展起來對台灣的科研 對傳播研究 人才流用是好的 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝蘇巧克委員今天先禮拜 先要跟他說說來 接下一位質詢委員 我們有請程培宇委員"},{"start":2923.49,"end":2931.316,"text":"好 謝謝主席那第一趴先請海委會我們吳政府好 謝謝"},{"start":2933.871,"end":2957.883,"text":"好 副主委早我其實要問的跟巧惠委員也差不多不過事實上我們之前在教文的時候已經跟國科會討論過了那國科會也說在這個部分他們確實會努力跟上不過在去年的幾個大型颱風之後其實就有台灣自己在地的學者專家有提出很嚴正的關於這個海洋的研究這個資料給你看一下 來下一張"},{"start":2959.043,"end":2981.697,"text":"這個是成大地科系的劉老師他在第二段這邊他有說海委會所轄海巡署的單位服役中的船艦從大型巡防艦到小型巡邏艇有181艘可是卻沒有任何一艘可以執行固定的持續穩定收集周遭海域海洋基礎調查資料的海洋研究船只能取海水撈樣"},{"start":2982.597,"end":2992.965,"text":"那也就是說他們認為自取海洋國家的台灣在海洋治理上沒有獲取所需關鍵資料的必要工具可不可以回覆一下目前關於這個部分你們的推進"},{"start":2994.397,"end":3017.623,"text":"官委員報告今天的這個設置中心條例事實上我們就是針對全海域基礎調查船我們現在國海院有三艘全海域基礎調查船有三艘正在建造中那100噸跟300噸的在115年可以完工那另外有一個4000噸的這個是目前最大的這種調查船會在118年完工"},{"start":3018.797,"end":3029.889,"text":"好 那如果這些船完工之後是不是就真的可以做到剛剛這麼多專家學者所呼籲的海洋基礎調查研究資料不是只有載有海水取樣你們目前給他的規劃分工"},{"start":3031.095,"end":3052.578,"text":"為了這個調查船的這個建造事實上就是為了擴大這整個全海域的一個基礎的資料調查好那如果是這樣其實我其實還有想到關於人才的問題其實喬惠委員剛剛有提到因為法人的優勢就是他在禁用人才的彈性跟相關的營運上相對於公務機關是好的那目前你們在這邊的規劃方向可不可以跟我們簡單說明一下"},{"start":3054.236,"end":3081.799,"text":"我們未來會爭取大概這個中心希望有100個元額的這樣子的一個設置那裡面當然是專業的人力的部分會大概達到79人這個從船模的製造設計等等操演等等還有調查船的這個關鍵的幹部還有這些探測的幹部等等這個是人力的配置上面我們目前已經有所規劃"},{"start":3082.58,"end":3110.111,"text":"好 所以100個人裡面會有79人是做你剛剛所說的這些專業的工作但是我不確定你們目前相關的薪資等級規劃事實上在教育化委會之前就談過台灣在高等研究機構其實給的薪資相較於亞洲其他國家其實是低的所以就導致於台灣非常難留住這些高階的技術人才高階的專業人才我不知道在這個議題上你們有沒有相關的研究就是在留才的薪資彈性上"},{"start":3111.809,"end":3133.624,"text":"那個國海院院長來說明一下因為我覺得薪資夠好其實才是最務實的啦謝謝委員那目前我們大概預估大概如果說能夠順利明年15年8月營運的話那主要的一些主要裡面的一個算是營業處裡面的同仁的話那大概就是會有"},{"start":3134.324,"end":3135.265,"text":"聽起來其實還是沒有太回答我很務實的問題啦"},{"start":3150.362,"end":3177.183,"text":"我要講的就是這些高階研究技術人才他們之所以願意留在台灣除了是自己的家鄉他有愛台灣的心之外如果相關的福利跟薪水給得不夠好或是相關那個等那個他們的續薪的等級其實他們沒有什麼動力但是根據你剛剛的回答我覺得看起來其實還沒有回應到我們的問題但我們今天有時間有限就麻煩你們會後提供給我們你們相關人才還有新等的資料我們看一看可不可以為這些願意留下來貢獻台灣"},{"start":3179.024,"end":3202.672,"text":"貢獻給台灣自己專業的人才更好的薪資福利好不好會後提供資料給我們好謝謝喔那我們接下來談另外一個事情運動部成立在即我之前就有問過關於海委會一個問題我說運動部要成立那目前台灣是一個海洋國家而且台灣確實有非常興盛的水域運動可是也因為水域運動非常興盛相關的水域事故其實很多"},{"start":3203.152,"end":3231.423,"text":"但必須老實的說台灣在相關水域運動事故相關的保險相關的證照相關的監管上過去體育署認為不是他們的業務他們就推給了海委會可是對於海委會來說可能也不認同這是你們的業務所以當時我就發文請教你們你們給我的回覆非常誠實你們說運動部在籌備的過程當中沒有邀請海委會參與可是海委會自己勇於認識你們說面對全民運動政策的制定"},{"start":3231.983,"end":3246.49,"text":"在水域運動上海委會可以並且願意成為運動部在成立過程當中行政治理的關鍵助力這個部分我可不可以請你正面再回覆你們是目前為止依然是這樣的態度嗎就是願意積極協助運動部"},{"start":3248.111,"end":3260.636,"text":"報告委員答案是確實是的這個也是海委會的職責我想這個部分我們希望你們跨部會進行討論這個部分不知道你們有沒有機會壓一個時間還是說你覺得由我們辦公室來共同召開兩個部會的跨部會討論是比較適合的"},{"start":3265.849,"end":3292.903,"text":"這個我們可以尊重委員這邊如果跨部會先討論一下後續海委會再做一個更深入的一些的協調也是一個可行的方式好那這個部分就我們辦公室來召開跨部會的討論好不好因為水域運動這件事情它不管是證照保險相關檢理政策確實需要海委會過去的非常多的資料進行水域事故細節的調查跟討論讓運動部做一個非常重要在制定政策法規資源非常重要的依據所以我們會召開跨部會討論"},{"start":3293.703,"end":3296.971,"text":"好 以上這邊先謝謝你們接下來我要請任總跟全序部"},{"start":3299.011,"end":3327.243,"text":"啊 主席 主席 主席 讓我問一下一分鐘就好好 謝謝主席看你要問多久好 好 來 謝謝主席來 人寵跟情緒部勞動節要到了 不要緊張我們要問勞動節公務員放假不要緊張 不要緊張我們來看你們的法規因為我知道勞動節公務員放假行政院這邊有在努力可是我要講我們有非常多公務人員他們家裡都有六歲以下的幼兒可是一旦遇到勞動節放假這件事情他們的小孩就不知道要去哪裡這個現象其實你們一直都知道對不對"},{"start":3328.503,"end":3342.883,"text":"目前有希望怎麼解決嗎這個部分在公務員請假你們會說你們有家庭照顧假嗎叫他拿他那七天的家庭照顧假來放掉其他其中一天對不對因為我們必須還是要照現行的那個請假規則"},{"start":3343.464,"end":3360.86,"text":"沒錯沒錯好我們來看你們現行的請假規則就是這個你們說英式要請試假給七天家庭照顧假有七天如果他要請幼兒照顧假就請他用原來的家庭照顧假七減一他就只剩下六天的家庭照顧假那在性工法裡面的勞動節不需要上班所以照顧小孩也不需要另外請假"},{"start":3361.681,"end":3366.243,"text":"我知道你們其實在相關修法討論其實全序部跟人總各有各自的負責人總負責政策全序部負責法務法務的制定但是我想要問可是在你們今年下一張在你們今年四月剛剛公佈的公務人員請假規則裡面你們把幼兒照顧假條款拿掉了可是在去年的版本裡面卻有幼兒照顧假那今年為什麼拿掉我不知道可能是因為行政院已經在討論"},{"start":3388.832,"end":3410.131,"text":"公務員可不可以在勞動節放假所以你們這邊就先拿掉了我猜測是這樣我認為你們不是惡意為之我認為是嬰兒在討論好 所以下一張所以這邊我可不可以積極的拜託公務人員請假規則修正我們辦公室的建議是這樣可不可以在公務人員請假規則正式納入幼兒照顧假的概念有沒有機會做這個討論"},{"start":3411.656,"end":3432.52,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前請假規則就是還在廣納就是收集意見的階段所以各機關的意見還有委員這邊提的意見我們都會帶回去做一個通盤考慮好你剛剛已經說了都還在廣收意見那我的意見應該也是其中一部分意見那就拜託你們納入討論因為對於公務人員來說我們建立一個友善的生育職場從公務機關開始我認為是一個非常正面"},{"start":3436.121,"end":3462.823,"text":"的範例所以呢這邊我們辦公室會積極的在追蹤這個題目我再說一次對於公務系統裡面在因為跟勞動相關法規休假造成的育兒上的差異其實很多公務員已經抱怨很久了如果我們真的希望留下更多優秀的公務員在這件事情上我認為政府帶頭示範是非常非常的重要所以各自的政策各自的法規那任總這邊可不可以說一下你們的立場"},{"start":3464.246,"end":3488.548,"text":"他的立場我很清楚了 全序部說廣受意見討論中那任總這邊的態度呢因為目前也跟委員報告 因為還沒有有意見還沒有出來那等出來的時候 我想委員的意見我們都會在那個會上來仔細聊那你個人是支持的嗎因為這是委員會沒有個人的問題好啦 但是我認為廣大意見討論真的非常重要而且我希望往這個正向方向移動好不好謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":3491.431,"end":3494.974,"text":"謝謝陳培委員 接下來我們有請王國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 有請副主委請副主委副院長"},{"start":3512.237,"end":3536.082,"text":"今天提出這個海洋科技營運中心行政法人的設置條例草案在你們的書面報告裡面非常清楚的說他會涉及到本土關鍵核心技術的發展那為了要避免有關於國防機密相關的事情能夠不要洩漏啦不要到外國去其他的地方做實驗所以要發展這樣子的一個行政法人這樣的理解沒有錯吧"},{"start":3537.247,"end":3566.095,"text":"那按照這個行政法人設置的規定這些行政法人禁用的人員有公務員服務法的適用嗎我們目前沒有但是我們在未來會有一般查核跟特殊查核那所有禁止的人員都要經過查核第一個我們回答問題具體明確就好了啦第一個沒有公務員服務法的適用第二個你們在20條裡面有所謂安全查核的機制嘛分為一般查核跟特殊查核嘛一般查核由誰來做"},{"start":3568.602,"end":3594.25,"text":"內部機關內部會建立這個安全查核機制對一般查核有誰來做有哪一個部會來做啦海委會那特殊查核有誰來做一樣是我們機關來做兩個都海委會自己做你們在設置這個辦法的時候有沒有參考國家自動安全研究院設置條例嘛有有有國家自動安全研究院的他一般查核誰做"},{"start":3600.842,"end":3621.742,"text":"唉唷 他們的一般查核是自己做 特殊查核是監督機關做嘛那基本的法條的構造要搞清楚嘛我看你們20條就是從這個地方來的嘛所以我現在才問你嘛啊你現在規範以後一般查核誰做我再給你一次機會再講一次一般查核誰做監督機關"},{"start":3623.154,"end":3648.446,"text":"特殊查核誰做監督機關我們會跟國安單位這邊會再做進一步的一個協調我跟你說你如果是按照國家自通安全研究院來講一般查核是行政法人自己做特殊查核是監督機關做按照你們剛剛的回答未來這個海洋科技的研究中心一般查核跟特殊查核都是海委會要自己做是嗎確定嗎"},{"start":3650.583,"end":3660.169,"text":"想清楚喔不要到時候相關的執法授權給你們送來立法院以後完全不是這麼回事再給你們一次機會一般查核是不是韓委會做一般沒有 韓委會啦"},{"start":3667.987,"end":3691.25,"text":"對 一般查核是海委會然後特殊查核也是海委會特殊查核海委會還有我們會跟國安單位再進一步來製作所以你們現在要走的道路跟國家資通安全研究院人員安全查核辦法就不一樣是嗎我們會更嚴格啦會更嚴格好 那你們就特殊查核的事項列了哪些特殊查核的事項出來沒有"},{"start":3693.814,"end":3723.152,"text":"我們現在正在嚴定當中正在嚴定當中嘛有一個草案對國家自動安全研究院裡面特殊查核的事項包不包括你們未來要放在特殊查核的事項裡面有應該都有嘛我要提醒你們注意的事情是說國家自動安全研究院本來設置了這個辦法他已經有問題了啦他交給數位部去做特殊安全查核我看完他特殊安全查核的事項以後我完全看不懂"},{"start":3724.424,"end":3739.366,"text":"數位部有能力自己做嗎你是不是曾經在動員勘亂時期終止後跟內亂外患經判決確定或通緝有案三位結案者有密切聯繫有密切聯繫的數位部有辦法自己做我看就不可能吧"},{"start":3740.492,"end":3765.619,"text":"我看就不可能嘛因為現在喔你們要求的授權範圍20條的規定喔是全部交給你們讓你們自己去訂執法所以我就很擔心啊你們訂的執法能不能用規範的密度夠不夠因為這是你們自己講的嘛會牽涉到國家機密的機敏資訊嘛不要到時候執法授權給你們規範有問題"},{"start":3770.307,"end":3792.905,"text":"查核的密度有問題搞了一堆應該要接受特殊查核的沒有接受特殊查核成為共諜滲透的破口這件事情海委會授權給你們真的有信心做好嗎還是我們在立法階段的時候應該要考慮把你們20條的規定提升到法律的層次來弄"},{"start":3794.222,"end":3818.139,"text":"現在韓委會的立場是希望授權給你們你們會負全責還是希望本院在修法的時候把他拉到法律的層面上來請副主委報告委員我們還是希望授權的方式韓委會絕對會把關好所以如果授權給你們到時候沒有做好誰要負責韓委會會負責好非常的好第二個我要提醒你們的事情是我一直在追蹤我的國軍弟兄的防彈背心"},{"start":3822.956,"end":3845.702,"text":"過去這幾年一拖拉鼓不肖的廠商在得標從中國進不合格的抗彈纖維部來做我們國軍弟兄啊的抗彈背心這我看不下去啦自我們國軍弟兄啊的安危與不顧韓委會也有針對抗彈背心啊辦招標對不對是嘛最近是得標是哪一家公司"},{"start":3852.949,"end":3878.624,"text":"這部分的廢貨我再跟委員報告來 我秀給你看這是公開資訊啦就是連戰嘛 是吧這個是公開資訊啦 這個不是國家機密啦我在政府採購網上面就看到啦是不是連戰公司是吧 是是嘛 這家公司有沒有問題都經過政府採購法依規定得標的來來來 我秀給你看啦"},{"start":3880.865,"end":3891.768,"text":"這個沒有得標的廠商公衛跟聯戰之前在其他的抗彈背心的時候已經因為違標被起訴還被停權當然他在起訴跟停權以前剛好在你們得標以後差一個月"},{"start":3900.58,"end":3923.7,"text":"差一個月但是這個會讓我很擔心這兩家在調查局那邊微標的公司又跑到海委會那邊兩家同時出現結果又是連戰得標這件事情海委會或者是海巡署有沒有下去了解這部分的話我們政風單位在招聘的時候都有參與這個我們會持續關注"},{"start":3926.616,"end":3949.856,"text":"我最後講一件事喔 不僅僅是持續關注 請特別關注為什麼我會講這件事情啊 因為這家聯戰公司啊 他不是只有微標喔他之前在其他針對有關於我們國防部的抗彈背心的時候 他的供應商他的供應商從哪裡進步啊從中華人民共和國進步啊列職啊"},{"start":3951.51,"end":3964.398,"text":"被找到啦現在我在擔心的是什麼擔心的是你們海巡署給我們海巡弟兄的那一批啊 抗彈背心是不是有一樣的問題啊這件事情海巡署下去把關"},{"start":3966.462,"end":3987.442,"text":"查清楚好不好包委員我們一定會一個保管我們規範也有規定不可以有紅色供應鏈所以這個在國防部也有這個規定嘛就有紅色供應鏈了嘛又同一個廠商嘛所以我今天才善意的來提醒你們回去了解清楚一個禮拜之內給我書面報告可不可以可以好 謝謝"},{"start":3990.694,"end":3994.116,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢我們接下來請省發會委員質詢阿川了主席我們現在請副主委有請副主委委員早"},{"start":4021.241,"end":4043.833,"text":"副主委早我們今天就這個國家海洋科技的營運中心設置條例我們要進行審查了那這個剛才前面幾位委員也大概針對這個我們的這個設置這樣子行政法人的相關的這些未來的權責等等有跟你進行過溝通那我這裡大概要請問就是說我們現在你能不能說明一下我們過去這樣子這麼多年"},{"start":4044.733,"end":4051.874,"text":"我們現在為什麼我們海委會認為我們營運中心有設置的急迫性"},{"start":4053.356,"end":4073.4,"text":"急迫性在哪裡?過去我們是怎麼做的?為什麼現在有急迫性了?設置之後跟現在有哪些改變?主要是國海淵有兩個中長城的計畫一個是國家船模實驗室的建造,一個是調查船一個是調查船,一個是船模實驗室這兩項功能我們現在還沒有國家營運中心我們現在沒有這樣的船模實驗室我們現在也沒有這樣的調查船那我們現在是怎麼做的?"},{"start":4079.221,"end":4108.268,"text":"我們目前的船模實驗沒有那麼完整就是在一些學校裡面有船模實驗但是我們這一次建造的更完整包括奈海的性能水槽我們現在沒有營運這個國家的這個調查船那我們現在這些海洋資訊的這些調查是怎麼做的我們目前還是有像國科會的那個實驗院的還是有一些科研船但是我們這一次是全海域的基礎調查的這樣子的那我們現在沒有做全海域的基礎調查嗎有但是還是會受到一些限制現在是怎麼做的"},{"start":4109.188,"end":4123.831,"text":"現在沒有營運中心怎麼做的你這個要講我們才知道說那為什麼設置現在要設置這個行政法人是必須的報告委員那現在的話就是有一些預算那由國海院在執行那像我們目前執行的一個方式通常就是以委辦的方式委辦"},{"start":4124.492,"end":4144.406,"text":"對 尾辦的方式 尾辦的方式去租船尾誰辦 現在大多數是尾誰辦有些是測量公司 有些是學術單位國內的還是國際的 國內的那如果說是屬於要租船的話那租船的話大概會有一些科業船也可以來租用那如果說是屬於一些測會的話 有時候有一些是私人的一些測會公司"},{"start":4144.946,"end":4171.284,"text":"那如果我們未來有這個調查船的話那海委會本身就可以發揮這樣子的一個功能我覺得這個要講這個我們要對外說明清楚為什麼我們現在要做這個船舶實驗室是重要的為什麼我們現在要做國家自己的這個全海域的調查船這個是重要的這個是重要的這個前提成立我們才要我們才來說那接下來這要怎麼營運要怎麼營運之後我們才說這營運到底我們是要用公部門來營運還是用行政法人來營運對不對所以這個部分這個要先講清楚"},{"start":4175.146,"end":4191.775,"text":"那我們現在要成立這樣子的營運中心我們來看看其他國際的國家他們有沒有做我們現在目前沒有我們國家一直過去到現在一直沒有我們現在看看國外的這些例子包括美國美國他是在這個"},{"start":4194.67,"end":4221.466,"text":"美國是他們有一個國家科學技術政策辦公室下面設了一個國家科技國家科學技術小組委員會所以美國他是用公部門來營運這些事情美國用公部門英國呢英國也是公部門英國他設置一個科學技術委員會下面設一個海洋科學協調委員會他也是屬於公部門那臨近跟我們條件最接近臨近我們的日本日本他"},{"start":4222.711,"end":4247.407,"text":"原本也是設立公部門,原本在1971年就設置了一個海洋科學技術中心但他們在2004年把這樣的公部門的海洋科學技術中心他們把它改成行政法人在2004年提早我們21年的時間設立了這樣的行政法人這個行政法人叫做海洋地球科學技術振興機構這樣的行政法人"},{"start":4251.24,"end":4276.054,"text":"那所以這個我們也看剛剛在講這個急迫性我們現在看其他國家在日本他們的這些這樣子的大型的海洋調查船日本現在目前有幾艘你們知道嗎大型的有七艘大型的有七艘中國有幾艘中國的大概六十艘以上六十艘以上那我們台灣呢"},{"start":4277.236,"end":4293.93,"text":"目前沒有嗎?台灣現在目前就是以科學服務的,科研服務的話有海野,國科會下面有4艘國科會下面有4艘?對,還有農業服務也有那我們現在急迫,我們現在在進行我們已經進行招標,現在在做的是幾噸的?我們現在100噸300,未來還有4000未來有4000喔我現在"},{"start":4301.629,"end":4330.256,"text":"這個部分我馬上跟你討論但我在這個之前我們回到前面的問題剛才其他委員也有問到啦我們現在有國海院剛剛很多人關心我們現在目前的這個這個國海院跟我們的這個營運未來要設置的營運中心他的全責我看起來全責大致上是重疊真正特殊的就是船舶實驗室跟調查船的營運嘛對不對只有這兩個其他大部分是特殊那我想請問一下副主委我們現在這個我們目前的這個國海院"},{"start":4331.189,"end":4347.802,"text":"他是我們海委會下屬的三級機關嗎?對,他的依據是什麼?海外組織法第幾條?國海院的組織法第幾條?第一條第一條的內容是什麼?"},{"start":4361.741,"end":4387.737,"text":"剛剛講你們海委會的組織法海委會組織法的這個第五條裡面本會之次級機關沒有國海沒有國海院只有兩個一個海巡署一個海洋保育署你現在講這個這個國家海洋研究院組織法的第一條他說海洋委員會為辦理海洋政策規劃海洋資源調度海洋沒有提到我們海委會啊"},{"start":4392.11,"end":4400.394,"text":"海洋委員會未辦理所以他是我們的三級機關嗎是嗎我們一直都這樣定位我知道你們是這樣定位的但是我們的組織辦法是不是應該調整"},{"start":4408.956,"end":4432.392,"text":"是那個報告委員喔我們在那個行政院主改以後只要是屬於70個局屬的部分他才會他的部會組織法會定說本部或本委員會所屬的次級機構是什麼什麼什麼什麼那麼因為海聯院他是屬於我們中央行政機關組織法上面的研究試驗等等的這些單位那這個部分在我們體系上先講到這裡這部分我認為我們的這個組織條例應該要做調整這第一個第二個我們未來這個副主委"},{"start":4439.456,"end":4463.558,"text":"我們現在剛剛有講到我們現在100噸跟300噸現在已經發包 已經招標 現在正在興建當中嘛那未來我們成立這個營運中心之後我們現在的這個包括它的招標 包括禮約執行都是由都是由這個國海院在做那未來它船舶完成之後它會用什麼方式來交到營運中心呢它會直接移交嗎 還是會委託還是由國海院委託行政法人來營運呢"},{"start":4467.082,"end":4483.709,"text":"目前的一個方式可能會以無償借用的一個方式給用借用的對 無償借用的一個方式給行政法人借用給行政法人來營運來營運 對所以他未來他的這個權利還是在還是在海委會在海委會在海委會在監督"},{"start":4484.97,"end":4500.597,"text":"借用也不是委託而是借用用借用的方式所有權還是掛在海委會這個很特別因為我看到現在我沒有看到說有所謂借用的方式來營運這部分我進一步了解我們營運的相關法規最後"},{"start":4504.779,"end":4522.873,"text":"我們這個這個目前的這個條例齁我這樣隨便盤點齁我目前的條例草案裡面齁我隨便盤點就有就有大概有七項以上的法未來的這個相關授權的辦法就在我們的草案裡面這授權我們未來主管機關要訂定辦法就是說我們今天如果通過了這個通過了這個這個設置條例之後我們還有"},{"start":4525.555,"end":4546.69,"text":"至少七樣以上我現在隨便盤點大概就有七條以上的授權授權我們還會為了要制定相關的辦法這些辦法制定好我們準備好了嗎我們來得及在明年八月八月之前完成嗎我們現在雲童部都在研擬了那我們這樣的體力也是參照其他的行政法人我知道我現在來得及嗎已經在研擬了已經在研擬了因為相當多了我們我看到規劃了"},{"start":4547.791,"end":4567.498,"text":"有相關的組織設施條例裡面授權這麼多的定定辦法的條例並不多我們這個有至少七項以上七個條文以上授權你們制定辦法這部分我希望說你們能夠同步的來完成能夠趕上你們計畫中的明年八月的營運好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝省發會委員接下來我們請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":4586.499,"end":4610.447,"text":"主席好有請副主委副主委委員好副主委好我想請教一下我們目前包括中央研究院國立成功大學海洋大學以及交通部的航港級等單位都有海洋調查"},{"start":4611.887,"end":4615.771,"text":"就是模擬的設備所以請教一下我們海科中心與這些單位的功能積分還有協調分工是什麼是否有進行資源盤點的報告避免重複投資是否有能提供的具體的資料"},{"start":4634.329,"end":4663.12,"text":"各位報告就是我們事實上都有去盤點不會有資源重疊的一個狀況那跟那個國食院下設的這個海科中心事實上他們我剛剛有報告他們是屬於比較學術研究或學術研究型的個案執行的部分那我們這個設置中心國家海航科技營運中心未來主要要這個船模實驗室還有調查船整體的一個營運這樣子的一個管理等等的主要的是這個部分的功能"},{"start":4663.72,"end":4683.855,"text":"那現在各單位有的這些船舶我們其實上也接近一些國家在整合海洋調查研究船隊這樣的一個經驗我們也會建立這個科研船的合作平台跟資源機制這個是都有在做規劃好你在講這樣子你看我上次的PPT是不是打臉你自己呢"},{"start":4685.731,"end":4701.02,"text":"你講的東西是不是你說很平均但是這個資料是不是打臉你自己70%這樣是不是你講的是不是跟我們看到你們的資料是這樣"},{"start":4704.785,"end":4728.576,"text":"請問一下那個70%這個資料我不曉得委員是從哪邊來不過我們自己這邊的一個調查裡面事實上目前現有的一個科研船確實在科研單位的需求都不夠的是依據國科會的資料百分之百是依據國科會的資料因為國科會它的運作方式是由各學術單位會來提出申請那確實現在目前申請的所以你們的誇不會就是說這樣子誇的嗎"},{"start":4729.716,"end":4753.482,"text":"他們做他們的我們做我們的我們不知道他們怎麼樣我只有知道我的就好我們知道他們的我的意思是說國科會它是針對的是所謂的學術型的一個個人學者的一個計畫的一個申請再去做傳奇的一個安排所以我才要說你們有沒有盤點有沒有就是說資源投資的還有資源的重疊"},{"start":4754.922,"end":4779.586,"text":"這樣子每一個人做都一樣的話 我們的政府的錢我們人民的錢 那不是隨便花嗎所以說我希望就是要說提供具體的資料給我但是我們看到的是這樣 那是你們講的又不一樣是不是就很直接打臉了 對不對現在的研究船企那個是不足的對 就整個吊航船的那個能量能是不夠的"},{"start":4780.867,"end":4807.582,"text":"所以說你們就是要去跟就是國科會來去做跨部會來去研究來去整合來看要怎麼樣去盤點我覺得才達到我們要設立這個好意這個中心因為我們海科中心採的是行政法人模式但是目前要提升營運的彈性但是過去如就是國研院"},{"start":4808.783,"end":4820.568,"text":"支車會也出現法人化後的效率未見提升所以財務與人事的模式也是很模糊等的問題所以要請教我們本中心的營運的績效評估還有機制上如何設計還有第二個是否有年度的KBI有哪個部會負責職責監督"},{"start":4835.174,"end":4844.369,"text":"還有為拔成這樣的效果所以我們要如何有進廠的或重整的機制這個部分有沒有"},{"start":4845.487,"end":4868.107,"text":"蔣委員報告 未來的監督機關就是海洋委員會那我們剛剛委員提到我們要的是機制還有一個一個設計的部分讓我們更清楚因為你要設中心大家都認同但是要讓人民讓說大家覺得這個對大家是好的我們希望就是完整"},{"start":4869.288,"end":4886.229,"text":"謝謝委員提醒那這些部分我們現在都在草擬相關的執法當中包括我剛剛提到的這些監督的機制啦 制度啦當然也會借鑒其他法人的一些的曾經營運的一些的狀況所以我們是可以參考說我們日本海上的"},{"start":4887.999,"end":4906.675,"text":"技術安全研究所每年發表的年度的績效報告依據這樣子的貢獻產官寫就是產業應用與國際合作的上方的評估所以我們也是要去參考別人好的東西這怎麼樣去評估的我們要去做"},{"start":4909.636,"end":4930.541,"text":"所以說我們希望就是要完整一點讓大家覺得說我們要採用這樣子的資料我們再更了解我們在做什麼還有我們現在第三題我想要問的是說我們國家當前即使掌握水下地的形圖之還有金岸的"},{"start":4931.561,"end":4934.522,"text":"流產還有港灣穩定的模擬等資料用以強化我們海事的安全還有國防部以海洋災害的預警所以本中心未來三年有哪些重點科技以任務可具體的展現比如說我們如何與國防隊"},{"start":4954.407,"end":4963.915,"text":"國防部、經濟部還有漁業署等單位進行資料就是公告或成果轉化這個部分"},{"start":4966.489,"end":4987.878,"text":"所以調查船的這個興建跟船模實驗室的這樣子的一個建造是非常重要的將來這些所取得的資訊就是剛剛委員所提到的不管是國防的安全或者是一些生態產業等等發展的這些相關的資訊還有海洋綠能等等相關的這些海底調查的一些資訊我們都會提供給"},{"start":4988.618,"end":5008.696,"text":"相關的機關事實上他們就可以做一個非常好的運用那這個也是我們全海域基礎資料調查船要興建大中小三三種包括4000噸的這樣子的一個所以你很滿意現在的效果嗎我們因為現在在未來是我們要努力的這樣的目標因為所以你也看到說在打臉就是說我們國家"},{"start":5011.578,"end":5015.661,"text":"海底地形就這樣我們日本韓國所以這我們希望的我們真的準備好一個跨部會的整合還有產學轉譯效果要高而且為我們海洋主權與產業的競爭力貢獻中心有準備好這樣子了嗎我們認為說我們的"},{"start":5035.972,"end":5046.862,"text":"這個國家級的中心設立是良善的但是我希望看到的就是不只是一個單位我們希望的是一個能夠整合還有就是協同我們創造這個產值的實際"},{"start":5053.768,"end":5074.665,"text":"還有說各部會要回去檢討,如何他部會讓這個中心,讓這個中心不是一個單位為了設而設,這樣子的話才真正的為我們的海洋,為大家真的是好所以我希望說在一個月內可以提供給我完整的資料嗎"},{"start":5076.026,"end":5076.646,"text":"謝謝麥義臻委員 接下來請張志倫委員"},{"start":5106.924,"end":5112.494,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請海委會好 請副主委"},{"start":5118.57,"end":5145.418,"text":"我們副主委好首先請教一下今天我們討論的是有關於這個國家海洋科技中心的這個相關的一個草案根據海委會的報告顯示國家海洋科技營運中心的主要目標是提升我國海洋科技能力厚植海洋科技研究能量並強化我國海域基礎資訊的掌握那我想要請教我們副主委"},{"start":5146.138,"end":5164.069,"text":"那其實在過去我們國家也發花了很多的人民的預算來去做相關我們國家海洋的一些的這個硬體的一些設置比如說現在預算中心又特別指出我們國海院有一個國家船模實驗多功能水槽建置計畫"},{"start":5165.35,"end":5193.959,"text":"那這個相關的計畫我們也可以看到過去的經費大概是31億然後因為整個原物料上漲的跟一些外部的因素增加成44億那我們現在有點擔心的是這個計畫主要就是希望大家剛剛很多委員都有提到希望我們國家未來在一些船的一些試驗上可以不用到國外去在台灣就可以使用就可以完成以免一些重要的機密外洩"},{"start":5194.699,"end":5203.257,"text":"那我想要請教一下我們這個預算已經增加了大概13億左右那我們現在整體的計畫這個預算中心很擔心其實是不是有比較慢的一個情形"},{"start":5207.913,"end":5226.104,"text":"目前因為這兩個計畫主要是弓箭計畫就是調查船的部分是112到我先請教那個國家船模實驗室現在目前的進度到多少現在大概6點多%因為現在主要是土建6點多%主要是因為土建因為我們是蓋在興達港"},{"start":5230.466,"end":5244.512,"text":"13%因為今年主要是土建的部分因為土建因為它剛在興達港那興達港那邊附近它比較靠海所以事實上當時的一個工程工程上是比較複雜一點所以有延有耽誤嗎現在目前是沒有陸期進行那預期現在完成13%未來預計什麼時候會完工預計是115年今天116116年116年會完成預計116年"},{"start":5254.096,"end":5274.992,"text":"好 那我再請教 其實大家希望說人民納稅錢要用在刀口上那做這個實驗室主要原因就是因為現在國內有試做船艦的船模的實驗水槽沒有辦法提供完整的船模實驗項目那我們現在我們國海院所做的這一個船模的實驗室未來是可以"},{"start":5275.717,"end":5291.353,"text":"可以做我們的整整完整的船模的實驗嗎?對 各位報告他這個可以做到完整的就是包括那個奈海性能的水槽啦還有迴旋臂的水槽等等這個現在都目前國內是沒有的 對所以我們會把整體完整性的一個實驗這樣子實驗室建造起來"},{"start":5293.435,"end":5308.021,"text":"好那希望說大家可以再努力把這個進度給趕上那第二個就是講到的有關於這個大家重視的這個調查船的部分其實經費也從這個也經費也增加了蠻多總經費到31億那其實"},{"start":5311.643,"end":5328.136,"text":"預算中心也特別提說其實過去來講進度非常的緩慢尤其在112年的時候執行率只有23%然後而且在113年的時候的預算都是集中在年底才執行那我可不可以請教一下我們現在這些調查船海洋調查船的進度有趕上嗎"},{"start":5330.74,"end":5346.166,"text":"現在我們釣魚船主要會有三艘那第一艘跟第二艘100噸跟300噸已經去年開工了現在正在興建當中那4000噸的部分因為我們今年有剛通過這個變更計畫所以事實上經費又在增加了因為主要是因為那個現在都是屬於"},{"start":5347.166,"end":5373.613,"text":"造船都是屬於賣方的市場還有包括整個物價上揚所以這次也很謝謝就是已經有通過第二次變更那我們一季四千噸的部分今年算是我們的重頭戲啦希望能夠四千噸最大這一艘嘛對最大這一艘希望能夠在今年年底能夠完成發包今年完成發包對希望那請問一下有沒有整個工程進度有拖延的情況目前四千噸是因為還沒嘛那一百噸跟三百噸目前是沒有的現在是如期在興建當中那大概什麼時候會完成"},{"start":5374.693,"end":5377.955,"text":"100、300噸大概是100噸跟300噸是115年的年底完工然後4000噸的部分是118年完工"},{"start":5383.128,"end":5410.298,"text":"118年完工嗎對是現在好那也拜託因為這都我相信人民都很期待那接下來我就要請教就是有關於今天的草案有關的國家海洋營運中心的設置那因為我認為現在目前的設置我們很多委員對於整個草案為什麼要設置都有相當多的疑問那我們現在需要當然希望說有需要就必須要設置那我可是我從現在海委會的報告裡面沒有看到說我們這個海洋科技營運中心"},{"start":5411.1,"end":5416.216,"text":"設置整體所要的這些經費大概需要多少經費跟人力好像目前都好像沒有規劃"},{"start":5418.058,"end":5445.537,"text":"跟委員報告他必須要用行政法人的原因事實上就是我們的包括這些人才的專業性非常的高然後未來的營運的效能等等比較有彈性那我們的這個經費的部分我們目前是一估從116明年是1515我們大概需要經費大概是6000萬左右然後16會到3億然後17跟18大概3.6億目前是有一個經費的估算"},{"start":5446.819,"end":5449.676,"text":"那人員的部分也有一些禁用的這樣子的規劃"},{"start":5450.728,"end":5478.272,"text":"好就是說其實本席想要請教我們海委會的部分就是說現在我們所有海洋的整個強化韌性的部分我們做這麼多的東西所以不管從現在的建造以及未來人力的配置以及我們這個營運中心的整個建造跟未來人力的配置的部分我覺得就是人才的培育的部分其實是本席所擔心的我們到底有沒有那麼多的經費有沒有那麼多人力的培育"},{"start":5479.973,"end":5502.011,"text":"以及未來我們怎麼樣去執行這些方面本席還是希望說是不是可以提供一個完整的計畫你現在有需要這麼多的經費這麼多的人力那我們台灣現在有這麼多的人力來去做比如說未來調查船的行駛的調查或者是說未來我們整個營運中心有這麼多的人力可以來執行這樣的東西嗎你們現在有辦法回答嗎"},{"start":5504.004,"end":5531.547,"text":"因為這個經費都很多 人力都很多報告委員 事實上我們現在就開始有在做人力培訓了那我們之前就是大概有12個種子教師針對船母的 因為船母它非常的複雜包括整個一些精密儀器的一些操作所以事實上我們已經有完成一部分的國內跟國外的一個培訓那這個是為了我們的種子部隊啦那當然我們也是希望說委員能夠支持讓我們這個行政法能夠成立的話讓我們能夠透過預算裡面能夠如期來來招聘更多專業的人才"},{"start":5532.648,"end":5554.398,"text":"好那最後一個問題有時間的關係喔其實我們現在做這麼多的經費建造未來人力的培訓跟未來營運喔其實我們認為要在這個很重要就是希望說國家的安全的機密不要外洩嗎那我想一下這些人才培訓的有這個安全考核是依照什麼規定來執行未來可以確保國家機密跟技術不會外洩有沒有相關的"},{"start":5555.038,"end":5582.748,"text":"還有會不會建立這個安全查核的機制會有包括一般性的查核跟特殊的這個查核那這個監督的機制要將來會在執法裡面來訂定所以目前就是說現在這個部分我們現在草案裡面是沒有看到相關的對 那是授權海委會監督機關來訂定好 那所以拜託未來海委會的部分的時候我們花了那麼多錢所以花了那麼多人力所以未來整個保密的機制我也希望說海委會可以重視好 注意到這些好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":5585.916,"end":5592.502,"text":"好 謝謝張志文 張委員接下來我們請張宏祿委員質詢我請這個副主委跟這個副主委這個院長"},{"start":5612.236,"end":5613.378,"text":"那個副主委跟這個陳院長,其實啊"},{"start":5628.891,"end":5642.313,"text":"我們台灣現在有很多關於海洋研究很多的單位然後也在各個部會裡面其實都有那我們今天成立這個我也是支持但我有一個問題想要請教一下"},{"start":5643.786,"end":5666.294,"text":"我們現在各個部會有沒有業務重疊的有沒有需要整編的那如何去跨部會的協調然後能夠用成更好的一個協調機制不要同樣一件事情兩個單位在做花兩倍的錢我覺得我今天第一個重點想要請教"},{"start":5669.678,"end":5687.552,"text":"這個部分事實上我們也特別注意也謝謝委員關心資源不會重置各個單位它有各自的一個分工未來我們海委會跟國海運還有這個科研中心我們要做的一件事情還包括整合就是剛剛委員提到的不要重置資源"},{"start":5687.892,"end":5705.849,"text":"所以我們也會去整合相關的不管是調查船的這些船隊或者是船模實驗室我們去結合現行各個大學已經有的一些實驗然後把它做成一個船模實驗的國家隊等等這個我們都有在規劃然後會去注意到說不要資源重置好 那跨部會誰主導跨部會誰主導"},{"start":5713.772,"end":5730.703,"text":"我們有主動譬如說恰恰國科會啦或者是像農業部水事所他們現在也有一些研究船然後交通部的部分那還有會因為我們的職責上面統籌協調整合所有的海洋政策事務所以我們都主動的在做這些事情不不不你回答我一個問題誰主導"},{"start":5738.834,"end":5752.323,"text":"不是嘛我剛剛的問題啊各部會都有啊然後有很多都是重複的那你們剛剛回答我說你們跨部會你們都有去協調啊然後不要重複啊不要連教育部連學校都有那我只問一個問題啊誰去主導這個"},{"start":5757.025,"end":5768.292,"text":"啊不然你們都跟我說跨部會我也知道啊我也在行政機關十幾年啊跨部會大家都來啊到最後沒有一個人負責啊沒有一個人去處理事情等於是白談"},{"start":5771.327,"end":5795.132,"text":"就是當然海委會會希望來主導這整個的整合協調但是如果機關之間有一些業務面向上面的分工有什麼需要行政院來協助的部分我們也會請行政院來協助不不不 副主委我剛問的就是我也不想讓你為難你剛就想說你也需要你主導就我所知"},{"start":5796.573,"end":5806.298,"text":"目前就是沒有一個部會可以去主導啦也沒有一個部會可以去協調啦重點是在這嘛 是不是啊人來扮演這個角色不不不 你要回答我的問題啊"},{"start":5811.67,"end":5831.389,"text":"對 有一些這樣的問題就在那裡好啦好啦 你也不方便講啦 我也知道啦但我們都很支持這些研究家這些啊我也先說我是支持啊 但我們不能讓這個事情一拖再拖啦我們不能讓這個事情永遠在這邊嘛 對不對"},{"start":5833.531,"end":5855.056,"text":"我們立法委員我們立法院是要監督你們行政機關預算的執行的什麼的對不對那我們發現了這個問題啊那你今天有這麼多我們又成立了這個又成立了什麼的我覺得就像你說的如果你海委會你想說你要主導要主導的人要扛責"},{"start":5857.348,"end":5882.65,"text":"責任跟權力是要的那你們可以主動去跟行政院啊去跟院長報告啊就這幾個我們大家拿出來盤點哪些跟海委會的業務是很直接的你們願意負全部的責任那你們也願意去主導我覺得應該要這樣子解決這一個很混雜的問題而且這有什麼好處"},{"start":5884.141,"end":5907.499,"text":"很多的東西 很多的 如果你們可以這樣子的話有的預算可以不用多編有的人員可以不用那麼多然後方向明確往前走不是這個單位我往右研究 這個單位我往左研究我往南 往東 哇 到時候連會診都沒有辦法會診你們現在是不是遇到這個問題"},{"start":5912.118,"end":5930.405,"text":"你回答我的問題就好 你們現在是不是遇到這個問題有一些整合上的問題需要解決你一直都避重就輕啦 我也不想為難你啦你們確實就是遇到這個問題嘛那就是遇到問題 我現在就開解方給你你要去這樣做啦 那你們"},{"start":5932.194,"end":5947.252,"text":"海委會 我也認為海委會應該要負起這個整個海洋計畫 海洋研究 海洋保育海洋的未來的規劃什麼的這個本來我認為就是海委會應該要的責任那你其他的部會"},{"start":5948.793,"end":5972.526,"text":"大家要相互配合我說你們的主導不是叫你們威權然後說你們怎樣怎樣都要聽你們的我那個意思是總要有一個總負責的人一個總負責的然後大家去然後有這樣的整合包括明年的預算的編列大家就可以透過這個整合的會議這樣大家去看預算不要重複編列然後放在重點"},{"start":5973.607,"end":5983.881,"text":"然後你們那個騎乘這樣子規劃才要這樣出來啊這樣這一點可不可以做到啦我們會往這個方向來演繹也跟行政院來做報告你們會往這個方向來演繹"},{"start":5988.191,"end":6014.42,"text":"我不反對啦但我覺得啦應該要負責任的說就是要這樣子走因為你沒有辦法決定回去跟你們主委報告然後跟院長報告我覺得要這樣啦這樣才能整合這個已經好多年了都沒有處理啦可以嗎報告我剛剛提到就是說希望還有要擔起這樣的角色跟責任好啦你就這樣做啦好謝謝委員"},{"start":6016.598,"end":6025.324,"text":"好,謝謝我們最帥的張宏祿委員接下來請王美惠委員質詢主席,我們請副主委請副主委有請王一川委員,你要過來你好"},{"start":6043.191,"end":6052.913,"text":"你好 副主委 今天我們討論到國家海洋科技條例裡面的草案這是新的嘛 因為是新的 現在來討論行政法律的問題但是現在 我覺得受這個法"},{"start":6066.616,"end":6068.677,"text":"我是非常贊同,剛才我們董事會說責任歸屬在哪裡,我認為你慢慢走走因為我認為在這裡要討論,就是可以啦,這個法則開"},{"start":6087.87,"end":6091.736,"text":"真的有到位啦因為我認為不要說開支跟付出的心肺就看多少在這裡啦所以你對剛才"},{"start":6101.936,"end":6125.476,"text":"妳還有要補充什麼嗎?副主委謝謝委員的確還有會是責無旁貸我們要把這個責任擔負起來那這個船模實驗室跟國家調查團隊可以建造完成之後整個國家的這種調查整個調查的量能還有國家關鍵技術的這個核心技術的一些提升等等的確就可以有非常大的一個注意"},{"start":6126.537,"end":6132.882,"text":"因為 副主委我為什麼要跟你講到這個問題 因為本席也有提到在這裡面 我的意見可能跟你們的意見比較不一樣因為我裡面的條例的時候 我也 我們的外國人"},{"start":6144.145,"end":6159.039,"text":"還是正經在中國的 還是澳門的港澳的都不能擔任我們裡面的黨官署那個副主席你認為本席會有多少希望可以這個法我提議的這個你覺得認為如何來"},{"start":6167.382,"end":6193.983,"text":"根本報告這個部分事實上我們在規劃未來的這個董監事還有一些執行人員的時候事實上也是朝這個方向朝這個方向對 只是說因為我們的整個立法的體力我們有參照到行政法人法還有其他的行政法人的立法體力那未來我們會在那個安全查核的面向上面來阻絕這個部分對啦 因為我覺得你如果做檔案署在裡面"},{"start":6195.184,"end":6206.747,"text":"有很多重要的文具裡面的資料,他都可以看,還可以了解因為我覺得,我們要想這個法律學院,也要讓他到位不是說想想,如果不去做,不去改革,也有可能會繼續去擔任這個職務"},{"start":6222.245,"end":6245.694,"text":"這是有可能的喔你如果不用心去了解的時候我講的這個問題有可能會產生喔你覺得未來在執法裡面我們也會去做相關的規範那鹿港澳人民本來就不可能進入我們這個國家海洋科技運營中心啦對因為依照它本身的條例的規範有一些對啦 條例的規範 但是未來有可能我們要"},{"start":6251.028,"end":6254.75,"text":"不然發生我們就要想啦 不然發生以後說這樣就太慢了在這裏面的編制當中 因為本身後來你們找你們的資料來看的時候你們有在營運中心裏面有編制裏面的零碗 一百個嘛一百個裏面的營運處裏面 占中間那八十個 七十九個啦"},{"start":6279.986,"end":6284.468,"text":"未來你們有可能再去拯救這些人嗎?來未來的營運狀況,初期我們現在就是100個人喔,初期跟未來,這樣我就給問你的了,給說的了我是說你未來有可能還是不會再拯救啦營運狀態,因為我就是本社會來問這個因為我們18、15年,今年要移送"},{"start":6309.974,"end":6311.756,"text":"是非常嚴峻 因為要把行為做好 新的一定要有政策所以你不用煩惱 改政策你就要政策 我也會支持支持這個議席的時候 我們會相當的考慮看要怎麼去解決這個問題 還要緊"},{"start":6333.444,"end":6335.726,"text":"不然你說 本來就不夠 又不夠情感這樣你設一個要做什麼 再多多設"},{"start":6341.787,"end":6355.133,"text":"我們都很精密的有去估算然後當然要讓這個中心能夠做非常好的營運所以人力需求上都有估算因為我認為日本可以領袖什麼事情的原因就是說我們不要說我們本來要接的現在為了大家在那裡看 還有為了整個問題的時候"},{"start":6365.098,"end":6369.1,"text":"若同樣十月不成功,差不多十五個崗位你叫十月做,這樣也非常不應該這樣做的崗位也不會努力,也不會好事尤其我們這個法規要保護台灣的安全中華民國不是親切不負而已在這裡,本席跟你說,這個問題跟人員的成功"},{"start":6394.127,"end":6409.874,"text":"還有外國籍的可以擔任什麼 你來相當去考慮 去了解這個問題因為我感覺說 你如果有資料的時候早期還要去給別人啊 更何況他可以擔任這個 早期他可以資料出來這樣就海融融了啦沒有 我沒有讓這些人認知好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6421.902,"end":6425.786,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員接下來請莊瑞雄委員謝謝主席 我們有請副主委副主委請"},{"start":6440.942,"end":6466.335,"text":"副主委好我想本席要先肯定我們海委會的一個努力在我們月初的時候通過了海巡軍職薪資待遇跟國軍同步這樣去做提升讓我們海巡起薪也達到四萬塊我相信將近有九千位的機程士官兵來受惠這對於我們長年在第一線守護海域保護人民的海巡兄弟這個是一季的一個強心針"},{"start":6468.036,"end":6486.154,"text":"但是本席在這個地方也要特別提出來另一個急迫的一個問題就是說我們在去年警消還有移民署還有空勤這個都是有夜間危險的一個勤務的一個津貼"},{"start":6488.076,"end":6508.739,"text":"對於我們海巡弟兄來講的話,深夜為勞性的一個勤務的一個補貼啊,到現在還是空白。我不曉得你們的看法是怎麼樣啦。諸位已經講過說,你們說這個是未來的一個目標啦,但是這個聽起來就讓人就覺得,沒有負理由聽起來都蒼白又無力啦。"},{"start":6509.5,"end":6528.002,"text":"因為我都一直覺得說你台海局勢如果越緊張啊我們海巡面對了其實說實在話啦最緊張的就是共軍啦那不分晝月這樣子給你挑釁的話那你這個共軍或者中國的海軍或者那一些這個亂七八糟的船"},{"start":6528.823,"end":6549.142,"text":"他也不會只有挑白天來啊他晚上也會來啊所以你海巡的弟兄是不分白天跟黑夜在巡訪冒著這樣深夜的一個風浪頂著這個風險值極高的一個勤務啊卻沒有這個配套補貼的一個制度啊我覺得這個是實質的不對等布小林的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6550.151,"end":6575.792,"text":"就是跟委員報告其實管主委對這個部分就誠如他所說的啦其實他非常努力的在爭取啦那我們對同仁的權益尤其是剛剛提到的這些深夜圍牢的這個津貼的部分希望可以得到院裡面還有你們規劃了沒有我們有規劃有規劃可以請我們副主長報告委員非常感謝委員的關心那目前跟我們仁總在持續溝通協調中"},{"start":6578.625,"end":6596.184,"text":"這個其實海巡弟兄的勤務其實非常的一個繁重你說不只是守海 其實守海就是在守國他們同時肩負的你說邊境的一個巡防 海上的執法還有你看我們海邊那個地方 其實都是一些災難的一個救援多重的這樣的一個任務"},{"start":6597.685,"end":6625.096,"text":"海巡過去 海委會過去對人員這個權益相當於重視 我們都是去肯定但是我們希望這一塊盡速到位這個變成一個制度的一個黑影 這不對很努力的在爭取這一塊 跟人種要努力啦 好不好那我針對今天這麼多委員一直在提到我們今天這個海洋科技的一個資源整合的問題我相信你們也聽到很多"},{"start":6626.651,"end":6648.94,"text":"機關重疊的問題很多的計畫像我們今天在審這個立法的一個草案的一個立法的一個目的你最主要是強化國家整體海洋的科技的一個量能你像比如說你這個第三條裡面就列舉了海洋調查設施管理人才培育國際合作等七大項的一個業務但是我也注意到"},{"start":6649.42,"end":6669.247,"text":"你去看我們國家研究院其實早就設有台灣海洋科技研究中心那你說從它的主要任務從平台的建構到研究船的維運人才培育跟草案所提到的新中心業務其實這個都你看高度的重疊啦真的是高度的一個重疊啦所以我要請你做說明的就是說"},{"start":6670.687,"end":6689.945,"text":"為什麼已經在國衛院中心的情況之下我們還需要再設立一個新的國家海洋科技營運中心我們擔心的就是說你這個人力跟資源重複的一個配置的問題其實大家更擔心的啦我私底下在問啦更擔心的是你只有多了一個可以申請計畫的法人單位而已啦簡單說明"},{"start":6694.333,"end":6718.496,"text":"國海院下設的這幾個重新事實上都是比較政策研究型的這樣子的一些個單位那我們這一次的這個科技調查中心海洋的這個事實上他很重點在傳模實驗室跟未來整個國家調查團隊的營運管理功能還有這些專業的人才的培育跟留才這個是他會非常不同於現在國海院在處理的業務的面向"},{"start":6719.482,"end":6746.892,"text":"我們最擔心的是什麼呢其實你多了一個單位如果多一份力量那是好事啊可是你如果多了一個單位只是分散掉而已那其實就是無濟於事啦所以我真正想請教的啊你說以目前你看的就是說你看台灣目前涉及海洋的學術跟科研單位就那麼多海大中山城大還有這個國研院船舶中心各部位海洋計畫現在這一些啊各做各的啦"},{"start":6748.402,"end":6773.969,"text":"你互不相通甚至於互相在搶人搶船搶人搶資源這個常常大家是有耳聞的那就是說這次設立中心是不是真正具備有統籌協調的一個實權你未來研究船的一個調度實驗設施的維運還有資料的整合跟管理是不是能夠集中到這個中心來做一個平台那如果變成一個申請的窗口的話要怎麼做"},{"start":6776.458,"end":6801.107,"text":"我們最擔心的是這個啦你這科研的資源你不能各吹各的海風你中心設立以後應該是你應該是一個羅盤應該是一個舵手應該是一個整合者要不然大家小乖 大家像這個樣子而已這個要特別了 尤其你剛提到留才 要留住人才其實我們真的 以現在你這個制度你可以留住人才嗎"},{"start":6802.264,"end":6813.91,"text":"你要留住人才就很簡單啊你第一個你的薪水是多少啊你的制度到底有沒有給他保障啊你的升遷你的升遷的制度是怎麼樣啊那這一些你很難看你們草創階段啊看得出來啊一個你看這個我們現在喔海洋科系的你畢業後 兩條路嘛 對吧做科研嘛 不然要走準嘛走準 你要三伏一戶多少錢你知道嗎 像萬海跟長榮的多少你知道嗎 十八萬"},{"start":6831.127,"end":6841.294,"text":"你這趴生要換多少來之後大家計畫做一做計畫結束 走掉了你說叫他繼續留下來繼續留下來他會覺得我也沒有升遷的管道"},{"start":6842.285,"end":6865.531,"text":"我薪水又不夠多大家學到經驗以後 酸這個對他們到底是有沒有吸引力也就是說我們目前科研體系根本沒有辦法提供相對應的流財的一個誘因所以說你要流財 育財 生財你這個機制如果沒有先做好的話你這個到最後你的中心是人才的流動站"},{"start":6866.531,"end":6889.351,"text":"我們要把它變成是人採的基地 培育的基地這樣才對啊所以我可以理解我們中興要採比較彈性的聘用制度但是如果說你只有這樣的短期契約 沒有升遷的階梯甚至於沒有績效的獎勵 薪資又缺乏彈性這個常常會變成一個中繼站這個我提出來啊 要特別特別啊"},{"start":6889.811,"end":6916.749,"text":"我們海外委員會這邊要特別去留意你看你今年海洋科技專案補助計畫擴編到七千五百萬七千五百萬對學界是一個鼓舞但是研究計畫做完人走了成果也跟著流失你補助這些都是短期的而已制度才是一個關鍵這個副主委我是覺得謝謝委員提醒我們都有往這個方面包括留才怎麼樣為了能夠把人才留在這個中心裡面"},{"start":6918.351,"end":6922.215,"text":"我就跟妳說妳情緒多 妳說不出來了妳的比較多口碑 妳的比較多白筆的啊妳只說要留財來 簡單做一個回應"},{"start":6929.81,"end":6954.572,"text":"我們現在目前是比照教育人員生活條例還有很多的獎金制度那船員的部分會比照一般外面的船員的一個薪資是啊 所以誘因在哪裡你們認為這個誘因就夠了我覺得誘因來講除了薪水以外還有包括它是屬於公法的行政法的我覺得相對來講它的一個工作上的穩定性確實也會吸引到一些造船相關系所的一些學生"},{"start":6955.413,"end":6982.447,"text":"因為我們有問過 我們有去做一些survey啦當然他們也期待到業界啦不過這個全職業本來都是大家人主要的選定啦那當然我們希望說我們這個制度 行李料 這個單位可以行李料可以去我們跟你這樣提出問題是叫你們要未雨綢繆啊不然你設計這個中心要重疊性的要幹什麼你涉及到如果說搶資源的啦說一艘船啦 你要決定要給誰啦"},{"start":6983.763,"end":7011.674,"text":"你到最後什麼人要處理 你這個中心有沒有辦法做決定當最後的一個仲裁者所以我都覺得這個大家要誠實去做一個面對先把問題先提出來最後一個問題你中心可能會涉及到機敏性的資訊的問題如何去把關關鍵人員的一個禁用我看你們今天早上主委也去提到還有會這邊好像也有在中國有居住權的"},{"start":7015.081,"end":7032.14,"text":"你們現在清查出來是幾位清查有三位是在中國有居住證他是從小因為父親是台商所以從小就有居住證在那邊成長但是在招募我們志願士兵之後他都已經完成申請撤銷"},{"start":7033.101,"end":7050.448,"text":"那所以他現在從事的是士兵都是願意士兵路上的還是海上的暗巡路上暗巡那還好啊你像譬如說我們現在以現在來看的話研發單位或者艦艇或者情搜或者直通或者新型的一個武器的"},{"start":7050.908,"end":7075.724,"text":"那你如果說在對讓這些中國有居住證的人我們的民眾還是心裡頭比較不安心啦所以國安部門以後這一塊啊你們說禁用人員你們要做考核 你要怎麼考核你是一個法人欸那是不是也比照啊 跟國安單位你要不要考核 你不能跟人家說我調查你有沒有犯罪紀錄沒做過三次 看有沒有犯罪的沒跟人家這樣讓夫妻同盟起來對對的"},{"start":7080.587,"end":7102.396,"text":"這個就比較草率啦是不是也可以跟國安單位這個地方啊你們要好好的去研擬這個制度的一個創建剛開始的時候就要非常謹慎因為我們非常嚴謹那將來也會有特殊查核的部分我們會跟安全單位來合作請安全單位來協助這個都有限在這樣的規劃當中這個一定要規劃得非常謹慎啦好不好這不能開玩笑啦"},{"start":7108.538,"end":7127.994,"text":"那個夜間的危老人家 你說只有警察有 消防有 空勤有 漁民署有真正每個晚上不分白天作業 晚上反而是最危險這個我們的整個海巡弟兄反而沒有很奇怪 趕快把它補起來好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員 接下來我們請李柏毅委員"},{"start":7151.966,"end":7157.429,"text":"謝謝,我們請副主委跟海洋研究院院長副主委、院長請"},{"start":7163.462,"end":7169.865,"text":"我剛還有海巡署副署長也到我剛在樓下內政委員會剛質詢完管組委還有我們署長"},{"start":7178.355,"end":7200.19,"text":"針對海底電纜被破壞的事情針對這些罰則有沒有要提高最重要的是針對在立法院被刪除以及凍結的預算對我們執行這些業務造成的影響剛剛也講得非常清楚在內政委員會裡面其實只有刪除1500萬跟凍結1億"},{"start":7203.237,"end":7228.038,"text":"但是到了院會被台灣民眾黨直接提案統三百分之十五造成的影響那剛剛也講得很清楚在海巡署的部分有兩艘船沒有辦法交付兩艘船沒有辦法交付直接造成執行如果要斷我們電纜的這些船隻的包夾等等的在業務上是有困難的"},{"start":7229.528,"end":7241.001,"text":"凍結的部分在這些巡查方面直接造成我們現在相關油料以及維修的這些問題這個是剛在樓下內政委員會的問題我們現在要審我們現在要討論國家海洋科技營運中心的這個條例的問題我先請教"},{"start":7249.031,"end":7270.745,"text":"我剛講的通山15%裡面在我們國家傳模實驗室裡面受影響的預算有哪個可不可以請院長來回答通山部分的話傳模實驗室大概3億多那會影響到就是照播系統跟這個土木建設的部分土木建設影響到我們怎麼進駐"},{"start":7272.998,"end":7294.976,"text":"什麼時候要進駐?土木現在已經進駐了我們現在有多少人員即將要進駐?當然包含我們的這個海洋基礎我們的岩吊船什麼時候開始?應該說現在還在興建當中那現在進駐的都是施工的人員那我們如果這個可能有1億2,今年度1億2還有凍結的部分會影響到多少?"},{"start":7298.258,"end":7313.861,"text":"會影響到 市供的話可能期程上就會在多兩個月多兩個月所以今年會好嗎 還是要明年我們現在目前預計還是如期希望在116年的時候完工 如期完工 穿模實驗室"},{"start":7315.343,"end":7330.848,"text":"2016年所以今年度可能就是部分影響那其實現在因為工班非常的難找確實也是面臨到這個整個大環境之下所以我們現在很努力啦現在目前工班是如期在進駐那現在工期也是如期"},{"start":7331.568,"end":7355.424,"text":"好 謝謝所以我還是釐清一下我們相關的進度影響到多少那國海院當然還負責到國家相關所有的這些包含海洋產業的這些問題那海洋產業我一直對於一項想要就教你知道台灣我們我國籍的船舶的船員目前"},{"start":7356.618,"end":7385.174,"text":"一直停留在五千六百人左右那從當然從疫情期間會比較缺那當然後來我們其他的這些包含商船包含漁船那也包含我們現在我們現在的海調船都需要這些相關的船員那我想要請教我想要請教我們海員院的院長國海院院長的是"},{"start":7386.383,"end":7406.119,"text":"有沒有研擬一個政策 你看喔 我這個數字給你看我國現在船員合計加起來是7000個左右但是所需的這些船員不斷地需要不斷地增加增加的都是外國籍的船員比較多"},{"start":7408.177,"end":7424.896,"text":"這凸顯一個問題就是我們有沒有把船員當作一個海洋的資產海洋的產業要來培訓那如果要來培訓要來讓更多人願意比如說讀航海系的讀這些相關科系的學生願意投入的話"},{"start":7425.757,"end":7443.762,"text":"我們有沒有可能跟內政部這邊來研議有沒有相關的替代役比如說這個替代役一年那就可以讓這些人取得傳言證之外那他也有相關的薪水等等的院長是不是也就這一方面來做一個研議跟討論還有跟產業來討論有沒有這個相關的需求"},{"start":7456.003,"end":7475.843,"text":"那個麥克風這個業務是屬於交通部業務屬於航港局啦對但我講我現在問你的是海洋產業的這一個問題海洋產業是不是我們如果就這個現在目前的行政法人的部分我們現在目前是有聘那個替代役的部分有有有徵聘沒有沒有沒有沒有不是不是在你們裡面的替代役我是說船員的部分"},{"start":7476.664,"end":7496.71,"text":"船員是不是為海洋產業之一啊是那船員短缺的問題我們有沒有要跟內政部來研議這一些相關的替代意不是說在你的不是在你不是在你委員這個部分因為是交通部航港局那邊的一個權責來我就給你看數字我們會建議我就給你看數字"},{"start":7497.955,"end":7519.666,"text":"我國船員就一直停滯在這裡那為什麼我們一直要聘國外的船員當然可能也有價錢的問題啦可能這些東南亞以及或者是中國船員的薪水比較低但是我們有沒有要厚實我們的這些船員的這些人力的基礎那我希望我們藉由這個討論"},{"start":7521.307,"end":7533.734,"text":"那可以來也跟這個相關的議政單位來討論有沒有增加替代役的這些空間會跟交通部內政部討論謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝李博義委員接下來我們請黃婕委員好謝謝主席我們請副主委請副主委"},{"start":7552.943,"end":7578.056,"text":"副主委好今天我們要來審查這個國家海洋科技營運中心的草案的條例當然我非常肯定因為我覺得這個是在國建國造的基礎之下非常重要的延伸因為有這個傳播實驗室建立之後我們才會有一些基礎數據才可以繼續做好我們的關鍵基礎設施那這個傳播設計能力當然也非常重要那我在這邊想要提一個接下來可能會有的風險"},{"start":7579.136,"end":7600.888,"text":"就是這個草案設置下去之後我們必須要慎防我們裡面的非常重要的機敏資訊不應該外流怎麼說呢因為我看一下其實你們一直都 海委會一直都有跟像我們高雄有兩個是有海事相關的科系的學校像是中山大學 高雄科技大學都有很好的交流"},{"start":7601.528,"end":7623.902,"text":"那這個當然我非常認同那可是這種合作接下來在如果是碰到相關國防相關的機密以及你們重要的基礎資訊是不是會有一些風險在這邊想要提醒就是因為接下來你們會辦理一些海洋的調查還有實驗技術的研究很多都是機密的資訊尤其是海洋地形會測數據"},{"start":7625.863,"end":7644.15,"text":"那這個未來都是我們潛艦作戰非常重要的基礎那我們到底要怎麼保障我們的數據安全呢我在這邊提一個喔因為其實你也知道說現在世界各地包括歐洲包括美國都在打擊中國的學術間諜可是我們這兩個學校啊交流的對象裡面"},{"start":7648.832,"end":7677.759,"text":"有很多中國的軍工大學那你也知道說其實我們最近才剛公告我們教育部有公告我國的大學跟中國的國防七子跟統戰部的三校總共有十個學校就是他們所謂那幾個為解放軍效力的然後研究都是為了要提供給解放軍資訊的十個統戰學校裡面我們中山大學交流的對象就有三間是本次被禁止交流的對象"},{"start":7679.245,"end":7700.126,"text":"高雄科技大學姊妹校裡面也有一間屬於中國的國防棲子也就是說接下來我們在我們這個這麼好的學校接下來跟他們進行這個海洋科學研究的交流的時候會不會有這個中國學術間諜的風險呢在這邊先請副主委回答"},{"start":7701.406,"end":7723.096,"text":"我們這個中心的這個人員的聘用我們非常重視這個特別是機敏資訊的這樣子的維護所以我們未來會有一個安全的查核辦法對於這些人員的禁用的部分會有一般性的查核跟特殊查核那特殊查核的部分我們會協調安全單位一起來做協助那這些工作都是由海委會來做一個監督的這樣的一個工作"},{"start":7724.508,"end":7743.86,"text":"對 這就是我想在這邊提醒的因為其實我們這一次我們賴總統也講得很明確嘛17項的國安的統戰因應策略裡面學術也是一個重點尤其是接下來任何的學術交流都應該要去政治化 去風險化但是你也知道在中國就是軍民融合"},{"start":7744.52,"end":7761.738,"text":"他們所有的基礎科學的研究都是為了他們的解放軍在效力這個都是事實那至於說我們現在高雄的這兩所學校跟你們有這麼多的海事合作接下來如果他們繼續跟中國這些國防棲子跟他們統戰部的這幾個軍校合作"},{"start":7764.321,"end":7779.999,"text":"該怎麼辦那當然現在也已經禁止了啦那只是說接下來會不會有像這樣的風險像你像副主委剛剛講的就是接下來的審核就變得非常重要所以我也希望在這邊再次的提醒這是一個接下來必須要慎防的事情"},{"start":7781.08,"end":7803.161,"text":"那再來就是資安風險跟人員的訓練那我在這邊也想要提醒一件事情其實國安局今年初有公告這個去年2024年中共網駭手法的分析報告那我們去年被駭客攻擊的次數是240萬次比前年又增加了一倍那很多都是來自中共的網軍"},{"start":7804.302,"end":7830.343,"text":"那大家也知道說它這個裡面它有把類型分出來以電信業傳播的領域增長了650%交通方面是70%國防供應鏈是57%那這三大領域就是中共的網軍駭客攻擊的對象的三大領域那再來所以我也想要請教接下來我們國家海洋科技營運中心接下來成立之後"},{"start":7831.604,"end":7855.649,"text":"那我們的資通安全的標準是不是可以跟國際標準同步那因為我認為啦就是國建國造我真的非常的關心那很多基地也都在高雄那接下來這些資安的標準到底要怎麼樣做到防護以防我們接下來這麼好的傳模的實驗室這麼好的基礎資訊未來被滲透被攻擊然後甚至是被洩露該怎麼辦"},{"start":7860.374,"end":7887.412,"text":"有關於我們在揣摩的部分我們現在目前朝向資安的規劃是在B級所以B級裡面所法規法書裡面所要求的項目剛剛成都委員提到的有一些駭客的供給供給還有包括整個軟硬體的一個設施我們事實上都會同步同步在進行所以我們事實上不只剛剛成都副主委提到的我們在人員的部分一般查核安全查核還有包括我們在軟硬體的部分在實驗室的軟硬體的部分這部分我們事實上都已經有規劃好了"},{"start":7888.853,"end":7913.198,"text":"還有包括整個資料的一個機密保護我們會遵照一些相關的一個計畫裡面事實上我們現在目前也在持續進行當中就是有關於我們國海委員委託的這些計畫包括村委員提到的一些地形車會水文這些資料事實上我們都有簽跟委託單位都有簽保密協定OK好謝謝院長的補充說明那這個我也希望你們的承諾接下來都可以用這麼高的標準來審慎應對好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":7919.079,"end":7938.274,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員這個副主委你看從早上問到現在那麼多委員都就是這個整個國安的問題因為涉及到海底電纜還有戰略資訊這個確實 國安部份把關要非常的一個確實我們接下來有請我們林倩琦林委員資訊"},{"start":7945.174,"end":7957.268,"text":"主席還有我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請吳副主委有請我們吳副主委或者陳院長大家一起來探討有關於我們這個組織成立本席這邊關心的一些議題"},{"start":7961.637,"end":7985.837,"text":"這個國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例的草案一目前送出來的這個方案是希望能夠透過行政法人然後藉由制度鬆綁跟企業化的管理來提升我們海洋科技的研究跟調查的能力但是這個草案的一些實施的細節制度的設計跟未來的運作我們希望能夠有一些這些疑問能夠一些釐清例如這個是比較整個系統性的問題"},{"start":7986.838,"end":8002.761,"text":"所以行政法的模式是不是能夠真正落實公眾利益跟績效的這個監督這是一個問題那第二個部分是高度專業的人才的培育跟留任的計畫可不可以有具體的一個策略然後跟誘因"},{"start":8003.462,"end":8020.438,"text":"這是本席今天第二大的系統問題那還有新設的營運中心如何跟我們現在在高雄興達港那麼多眾多的海洋科技的設施進行明顯的分工跟資源的整合也不會重疊跟浪費所以本席今天就針對這幾項來跟貴委員會做一個討論"},{"start":8026.723,"end":8043.036,"text":"所以一開始就是針對行政法人的國家海洋科技營運中心那麼在加速人士經費採購制度的靈活運用上可能是要行政法人這樣一個主軸來做處理但是過度強調彈性跟效率那伴隨來的風險就是公務監督的難度增加"},{"start":8048.88,"end":8069.187,"text":"然後還有公共財產管理的透明度也降低了然後還有預算資金運用缺乏妥善管理的這個問題那很重要在這個草案當中我也沒有看到相對的比較明確的評鑑指標標準跟落實的方式那如果沒有能夠達到你們所訂定的績效那整個究責的問題"},{"start":8070.808,"end":8099.325,"text":"所以本席這邊想要請教一下那海委會如何能夠確保我們這樣一個企業化管理模式的這個國家海洋科技營運中心能夠符合公共利益那在人事鬆綁之後呢那內控機制會弱化那利益迴避是不是會相對困難可不可以進一步來說明那剛才本席也提到的有關於人員培訓設備營運效能的具體考核項目跟問責的程序"},{"start":8100.285,"end":8110.234,"text":"那如果沒有能夠達到你們預期的效益那除了所謂的效益不彰草案中規定的解散機制以外你們還有什麼樣子的應對措施嗎"},{"start":8112.113,"end":8134.174,"text":"麻煩副主委先跟委員報告就是他必須要用行政法人來設立的這樣的一個必要性就是剛剛提到他有非常多需要專業人才的一個禁用然後運作上的一個彈性讓他保持那個效能的部分那委員剛剛關切的包括這個監督的機制啦或者是會不會有一些評估的指標啦或者是會計制度等等"},{"start":8134.694,"end":8163.181,"text":"那這個在我們的條例裡面呢授權未來要訂定相關的一些執法來做這個相關的制度的一個建制那這樣子的一個規定也是參照其他法人其他行政法人現有我們國家大概有11個行政法人我們參照那個其他行政法人的立法體力然後用授權執法的方式未來會把委員關切的這些問題包括他的這個績效指標等等的都會在執法裡面來做一個更詳細的一個律定"},{"start":8164.079,"end":8175.524,"text":"好的謝謝副主委所以在海委會在監督這個執法或行政命令的這個訂定的同時也請你們注意你們立法的這個意旨那不要讓這些後續的這個作為糟蹭了"},{"start":8179.502,"end":8192.006,"text":"好 那第二個部分因為其實你們用這樣子的一個組織最重要就是人才的培育所以本席這邊要談的是人才培訓跟留任的這個問題如果你們能夠有這麼多專業人才那你們一直強調船舶的操作 海洋的調查還有設備的操作 船舶設計跟資料分析等等"},{"start":8200.268,"end":8228.96,"text":"那這個對於我們在海上這個經常接觸的人都非常重要那但是呢你們草案目前只有談到人才培訓的同步進行可是卻沒有講到這個相對的具體的時程跟培訓的這個制度所以這也是本席又回到剛才講的效度上的一個問題那對於這個法案通過之後呢那後續的這個部分其實能夠怎麼樣來真正的檢視真的也請你們多加注意"},{"start":8229.72,"end":8252.62,"text":"但是這邊我們談到的這個人力的培訓其實成本很高那如果沒有合理的薪資升遷管道還有人才養成的這個路徑那我們也可能讓這個中心變成從人才的訓練中心變成人才的儲備中心因此你們能不能具體的交代那未來國家海洋科技營運中心在專業人才培訓的計劃詳細的時程"},{"start":8254.682,"end":8276.403,"text":"具體的內容還有如何確保人員的留任那這個部分呢其實關係到我們整個海洋技術的研發人才那目前你們有沒有什麼樣子的一個規劃謝謝立委提問我們現在目前船舶部分已經有第一批已經完成第一批的人才培訓了包括國內跟國外的"},{"start":8278.586,"end":8296.267,"text":"現在目前就是還會在明年開始又會針對船模 船模的製造就是說把大船變成小船的那個船模製造也會啟動這個所謂的國內人才的一個培訓那當然我們也希望啦這一些透過培訓的這些人才能夠留任下來"},{"start":8297.108,"end":8307.684,"text":"然後接下去我們法輪成立的時候順便就可以直接來過去那這邊也是我們努力的目標成立委員提到所以我們會在新制的部分也會做這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":8309.059,"end":8332.863,"text":"好的 那本席這邊希望會後能夠給我補充一下那個時程還有訓練的一個細節 好不好你們留任 最主要是留任的誘因喔好 那最後呢 我還是為我們所在的這個高雄來請命新達港已經形成一個龐大的海洋的這個發展區域中心那麼經濟部有海洋科技產業專區在這邊喔國研院 那個海洋科研中心那另外"},{"start":8333.323,"end":8353.192,"text":"你們海委會自身的國家船模實驗室跟國海院的試驗園區那整個那麼多的重大設施在這邊那整個區域範圍這麼大那有這麼多的單位你們如何在現有的機構上的定位的一個分工模式去做一個處理那當然很重要的就是說那請問你們在跨部會協調的初步方案目前是如何規劃的"},{"start":8358.515,"end":8367.213,"text":"還有未來新設的營運中心有沒有融合園區整體佈局避免土地資源分散重疊使用的情形這個針對"},{"start":8370.158,"end":8393.638,"text":"這個跨部會我想這個是我們未來都會遇到的這個問題那當然我再回應一下剛才前面有聽到委員對於國安的這個問題非常的重視但是像本席經常在海上對於資訊的公共性也是非常的關心因為好多在海上的水文相關的資訊我們沒有的話那在海上其實也是個困難"},{"start":8394.659,"end":8408.398,"text":"對國外想要來台灣的人也是一種困難你們如何在國安跟台灣的國際化中間取到一個平衡那這個部分是不是可以在會後給本席一個相關的報告跟回應好嗎 好 謝謝"},{"start":8411.601,"end":8430.617,"text":"好 謝謝林倩琦委員那主席先做會議程序的一個宣告啦由於我們上午的會議進行到現在都沒有休息我們稍後在吳世堯委員詢答完畢以後休息五分鐘那接下來我們有請來翁曉琳委員諮詢你要不要笑一笑我不知道要怎麼贏"},{"start":8444.581,"end":8465.846,"text":"謝謝主席有請吳副主委是副主委我想今天大家很關心的就是未來是不是海委會底下有必要要設置一個國家海洋科技營運中心因為這看起來又是在民進黨政府這個"},{"start":8467.747,"end":8484.588,"text":"執政的任期內又多增加一個行政法人我們先來看在民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人"},{"start":8486.755,"end":8506.671,"text":"那麼這個設置行政法人為什麼看從107年開始以來陸陸續續的也設置了大概有七八個行政法人那其實我們知道設置行政法人他有一個很大的問題就是似乎就是想要應該說就"},{"start":8509.373,"end":8517.199,"text":"外界會質疑設置行政法人的問題是不是有意要規避政府的監督"},{"start":8520.611,"end":8544.927,"text":"報告委員 未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟那個基礎資料的這個調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後呢我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要"},{"start":8545.467,"end":8571.099,"text":"但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技運用中心"},{"start":8571.701,"end":8588.744,"text":"根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人"},{"start":8589.164,"end":8604.733,"text":"那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能"},{"start":8605.478,"end":8624.808,"text":"其實也就是說只是為了一個調查船什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別再額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少"},{"start":8629.206,"end":8645.519,"text":"人員的部分 國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋 科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116 16 17 18大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算"},{"start":8652.307,"end":8669.122,"text":"所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高"},{"start":8670.686,"end":8697.458,"text":"3億到1億8億是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好"},{"start":8699.017,"end":8719.545,"text":"大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有跌床加工第二個他們的"},{"start":8722.046,"end":8731.112,"text":"自籌能力裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心的未來他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些"},{"start":8735.187,"end":8758.462,"text":"現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個"},{"start":8759.002,"end":8780.145,"text":"那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個收入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託"},{"start":8781.207,"end":8807.92,"text":"如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例"},{"start":8808.78,"end":8832.134,"text":"至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌"},{"start":8833.188,"end":8850.173,"text":"好 我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的"},{"start":8851.313,"end":8871.63,"text":"例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍不僅沒有自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔好 以上希望你們一個月之內給我提一個報告好 謝謝"},{"start":8874.059,"end":8898.066,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳翁委員接下來我們有請劉許廷劉委員質詢你的名字我念不中你要給他佩服開玩笑好 謝謝主席這個我們吳副主委然後國海院陳院長跟海保署請我們副主委還有國海院陳院長"},{"start":8905.229,"end":8907.572,"text":"好謝謝齁這個我先請教一下今天我們討論的是這個"},{"start":8910.632,"end":8935.493,"text":"相關的這個海科中心的這個相關的一個條文那當然啦就基於這個海洋的保護科技的研究強化國家的實力等等那當然多做一點事情這個我們當然用開放的心態來面對不過我也要提醒一下就是說剛剛有很多委員去談到比如說財務資產的問題啊人員重複的問題這個希望這個相關的一些資料收集齊全做充分的溝通未來在法療進入審查的時候它其實才會比較順利啦"},{"start":8937.114,"end":8957.612,"text":"那這樣子的硬體建設的支持我想大部分人都不會反對只要說明清楚不會遇到太多的阻力但我想今天想要借這樣一個機會我反而要問一下有關軟體的部分這個去年第一會期我們在審查這個海保法在審議完畢的時候其實本席有提出相關的一個附帶決議那也經過內政委員會當初一致的"},{"start":8958.072,"end":8983.376,"text":"通過那就是由這個讓海委會這邊要針對這個海洋保育的這個知識的建構要讓我們第一線的執法人員有更好的這樣子的一個本領啦你才有辦法去貫徹海保法當初設計出來的一些初衷那我想請問一下這個海洋保育的相關課程因為那時候規定了比如說總訓練時數要到20個小時以上要定期回訓機制這樣子的一套遊戲規則請問現在設計到什麼樣的階段"},{"start":8989.442,"end":9017.824,"text":"報告委員那我們現在我們的這個人員的經用包括我們的巡查員跟觀察員的部分現階段都還在持續的規劃那我們當然也針對我們自己保育巡查員或是將來在保育執法上這些人員的執法能力包括他的課程設計然後他的認證跟他未來面對民眾的部分我們在現階段來講我們有正在"},{"start":9019.045,"end":9037.641,"text":"這個署長召集我們正在規劃跟策劃當中現在針對這樣子的一個課程跟訓練機制的設計是誰負責海保署還是我們自己承辦的這個組就在來規劃這些相關的課程那當然會會邀請我們的專家學者來提供我們的意見在執法上"},{"start":9038.582,"end":9054.482,"text":"對 我現在要講你剛剛有講看起來有講一些方向但我總覺得好像沒有很具體因為附帶決議的內容其實是非常具體的也就是說為了充實相關執法人員相關的一些知識要有海洋保育知識 巡護海洋野生動物的概念環境維護 污染防治"},{"start":9055.103,"end":9072.963,"text":"甚至違反犯罪的偵查還有一部分原住民族嘛因為很多這很關心嘛因為有原住民捕魚的問題還有生物多樣性等等的一些課程訓練時數20小時以上要定期回訓所以看起來它應該是一個完整的課表跟一個機制比如說分幾梯多少人受訓什麼時候來受訓有沒有一些比較具體像這樣子的一個這樣子的設計"},{"start":9075.663,"end":9104.182,"text":"各位報告我們有一個執法的預告是針對這個上課的內容還有課程的時數那目前已經在預告當中這是未來執法的一部分那剛剛海保署副長提到就是整個規劃的部分那我們會後也可以再提供一個資料給委員好你會後提供資料這一個啊另外一個我要講就是說這我們希望喔這個因為我想這樣的事情一定對於海委會一定也有一些新增的工作嘛這個或多或少都有些負擔這個就是大家要同力合作不要把它只是當成海保署的事情"},{"start":9104.522,"end":9128.271,"text":"那這個當然也不會因為實務上第一線是海巡啦海巡大家都知道他其實非常非常的辛苦剛剛在樓下我們海委會業務報我已經講了這個都變第二海軍了那個待遇歸待遇待遇要增加但我覺得除了待遇之外你現在立刻可以做的其實是因應這些新增的工作你應該立刻提供他強而有力的後勤資源換言之海保署這要改變規劃的他要他不只要符合當初的精神他也要很實用"},{"start":9128.931,"end":9154.264,"text":"讓大家用最簡單最輕鬆的方式掌握最多的知識那我今天特別來講請國海院我們在硬體建設讓相關的這些你如果要一個行政法人等等大家用開放的心態來處理那我覺得軟體上國海院應該做研究嘛就本席的了解這聽起來就非常的純學術啦但我希望它不能只是純學術啦你國海院對海洋野生動物的知識啊污染的防治等等應該也有一些研究量對不對"},{"start":9156.354,"end":9182.72,"text":"有啦確實啦我們不是只有做學術啦不是只有做學術很好我就想聽這句話我們是為了政策而研究而學術為了政策而研究對不對那請問你在這個我們上次通過的附帶決議跟海保署規劃課程的內容裡面有沒有跟你們做會商你們可以提供什麼樣的協助我們事實上我們都有保持非常密切的一個聯繫啦針對這個課程裡面的一個設計的一個內涵事實上海保署事實上我們這邊都會有互相會有提供意見好這個"},{"start":9184.813,"end":9208.192,"text":"本席確定就是要今天質詢就是要強調這件事情就是說你還有會所有的體系要通力合作第一線的海巡是最辛苦的所以你們其他部門要給他很強的後勤資源尤其是國海院的部分那剛剛已經講很清楚有在密切的對話那我們就希望盡快的來看到具體的成果所以我希望你剛剛除了你剛剛講的一些資料之外最後這個我們現在支持未來啦這個海報法要上路要執行之後"},{"start":9209.073,"end":9237.978,"text":"支援海保署執法的相關的人數是多少其中有多少會接受相關的海洋保育課程也就是說你現在整個計畫的一個推動的推動的進度啦上課的總時數回訊的機制都要提供相關的數據資料我們希望海溝中心當然是有硬體的提升這當然大家樂觀其成但軟體部分的支援就希望國海院海保署要多費心讓海保法當初修正完畢之後那個初衷可以順利落實可以嗎可以可以好 相關資料你們要多久時間交給大家來參考"},{"start":9240.738,"end":9253.561,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜當然好啊OK好不好那我們就等相關的資料請盡量詳詞可以嗎可以可以好謝謝辛苦了謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝劉委員的質詢接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們的副主委吳副主委跟陳院長請吳副主委還有郭海韻陳院長"},{"start":9273.36,"end":9274.341,"text":"對要專心 不要分心"},{"start":9276.314,"end":9289.801,"text":"辛苦了 謝謝兩位今天很把握這六分鐘的時間我想我會用不同的面向來看看在未來海科重新成立的這些過程樣樣相向的這個定位我們不要遺漏了非常重要的一塊叫做人文而人文當中吳思瑤最在乎的就是文化"},{"start":9301.306,"end":9321.072,"text":"跟海科中心不能成為outside的面向就是保存跟活化水下的文資我這裡要念一段當初我們在成立海委會的時候蘇貞昌前院長說的一段話他說海洋不只帶給我們漁獲更滋養豐富我們的精神與文化"},{"start":9321.852,"end":9344.031,"text":"一個國家面對海洋的態度 往往影響國家長遠的未來雖然台灣開放海洋 擁抱海洋的起步較晚但是只要我們目標明確我們一定能夠成為一個真正現代化的海洋國家能為我們的疆疆孫孫留下非常豐厚的海洋資產"},{"start":9345.805,"end":9356.715,"text":"所以說呢我今天要跟兩位探討我剛剛聽了很多委員他關切的要成立國家海洋科技中心大家都看到了科技層面科技研發的量能也看到我們在國防建構安全韌性我們要國建國造我們要強化我們的海上生命線的很多巡防它需要人力物力軟體硬體的部件這都是"},{"start":9370.928,"end":9376.597,"text":"提升海洋國家競爭力的重要面向所以Yes我們需要國家海洋科技中心下一頁"},{"start":9377.97,"end":9402.513,"text":"而你們成立這個中心的兩個重要的業務任務當然在船舶實驗室的建置跟調查船的建置那目前都一個118年一個116年所以說我也都支持我也希望都能夠在預算政策法制的面向給你們很大的支持但是呢下一頁"},{"start":9403.803,"end":9429.657,"text":"我們之所以用行政法人就是鬆綁他的人事任用讓我們可以延攬更專業的人才還可以培育然後呢我們可以活化組織可以給予組織還有資金籌措更大的彈性還包括採購那是非常重要的所以我非常支持用行政法人剛剛前面有委員說用行政法人聽起來好像很多弊端好像就會規避監督並沒有"},{"start":9431.858,"end":9459.58,"text":"行政法人我們專業的立委都知道行政法人還是需要接受立法院的監督我過去在教育文化委員會文化部門是最多行政法人的因為就是要讓他專業人才的鬆綁以及組織運用的彈性所以說技術專業人才一次到位我會支持這個條例我會支持這個中心但是不要忘了重要的文化使命下一頁"},{"start":9460.861,"end":9475.151,"text":"文資局文化部的文資局跟我們海委會的國海院強強聯手在2020年就簽訂了水下文資保存的MOU陳院長您是好像剛到任是嗎"},{"start":9476.775,"end":9502.082,"text":"那之前簽署的是前院長 邱永芳前院長當初文化部跟海委會強強聯手就是要跟上聯合國在2001年就已經有的全球都要做水下文資UNESCO甚至有個公約而台灣也進一步在文資法之後我們2016年就訂定了水下文資的專法"},{"start":9502.762,"end":9523.331,"text":"所以這是一個當然文化部帶頭可是新的文化保存、文化再利用還有尤其水下它需要非常多的科技的support才能夠有利於去做水下文資的考古、調查等等當初簽的這個MOU啊這新到任的陳院長你有什麼掌握"},{"start":9526.505,"end":9542.736,"text":"這文化工作上全部掌握全部掌握好那請問有什麼樣具體的進展因為已經簽了五年囉因為其實我們簽了五年我們持續都有跟文化局在做文字局文字局不好意思文字局持續有我們有辦理文字局的一個計畫那這個計畫裡面事實上我們現在目前針對沉船"},{"start":9546.218,"end":9563.165,"text":"還有包括台江區域裡面的一些可能的水下的文資我們都利用我們的科技包括像那個電地組還有包括一些雷達或一些聲納的一些系統裡面我們事實上有去探測它水下可能的一個存在的物品謝謝你的都有掌握好 下一頁"},{"start":9564.185,"end":9581.314,"text":"但都有掌握是真的嗎我希望因為今天如果我們在審這個條例的時候當然當中很重要的就是這個基礎調查的研究船的興建4000噸級的這一艘它當中很重要的一個功能用途就是水下文資的調查"},{"start":9582.475,"end":9607.715,"text":"那台澎的海域目前的水中目標物97筆其中20筆目標物被辨識成為具有文資的意義物六處的沉船處從江金雲一號當然從江金雲一號的發現開始建構了台灣對於水下文資的全部一個翻天覆地的一個新的時代讓我們台灣人知道說那時候是國立歷史博物館帶頭的"},{"start":9609.176,"end":9632.896,"text":"所以讓我們發現說台灣的周遭原來台澎海域有這麼豐富的水下文資從那一個將軍一號的調研考古開始我們水下文資的工作開始往前站所以今天的計畫裡頭不要忘了喔這個4000噸級的研究船的建制計畫當中很重要的是水下文資的調查也是它的重要使命喔下一頁"},{"start":9633.957,"end":9651.649,"text":"那為什麼今天我們在審這個設置條例裡頭海科中心的業務範圍六大項第七項是其他沒有提及任何一個文資的調研的協力不要漏了如果剛剛院長所說都有掌握"},{"start":9652.694,"end":9672.76,"text":"也都有合作那我們在這個設置辦法裡頭就不要讓文化成為outsider下一頁所以請支持好下一頁吳思瑤的版本我會增加一項未來的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例第三條的業務範圍執掌會增加一個水下文資的調查協力應當沒有問題嗎"},{"start":9675.501,"end":9697.617,"text":"好不好支持我的版本然後呢長遠來講是要催生台灣催生一個國家級的水下博物館就在澎湖啊就在澎湖這一個水下博物館的計畫我不曉得現在進展到哪裡因為今天沒有文化部的人列席啊這個水下博物館的這個計畫請問院長您大概可以知說明一下嗎"},{"start":9698.646,"end":9716.134,"text":"我印象中 因為好像是在白沙啦澎湖的白沙那一塊好 進展到哪裡你不能講印象中 你是意料中的沒有啦 現在我可以說嗎這個藥物主要是屬於文化部的我知道 我知道所以我今天來就教於你就是說你們不要忘了文化的任務好 歐陽姐 步步都是文化部"},{"start":9717.318,"end":9720.001,"text":"那如果文化部繼續朝因為當初是希望2040年啦時程還很久啦如果說文化部全力的我當然會對文化部門持續的倡議請你們全力來協力"},{"start":9740.3,"end":9758.917,"text":"畢竟科學的研究有助於文化資產的調研尤其水下的考古而且最新的國際文化的資產的保存也就強化文化資產的韌性都需要借助科技而且科技不只是在保存端它可以在後端的典藏"},{"start":9759.978,"end":9771.609,"text":"策展推廣的那一塊用科技的導入來協助他能夠讓更多人來親近各類的文化資產譬如說科技的導入我們的水"},{"start":9772.901,"end":9792.143,"text":"水下國家的博物館計畫我們可能是陸地的那種基地型不是一般國際做真的水下型所以必須藉助科技的研發來幫助大家可以用AR VR各種新的科技技術來體驗水下的文化資產我今天時間到了所以我提醒我提醒再提醒"},{"start":9793.484,"end":9819.615,"text":"離島有非常強大的文化觀光的優勢跟實力如果能夠建構水下文資台灣成為世界的重要國家的話發展離島的建設就不需要靠離島建設條例去替中國洗產地了所以你們有非常重要的文化使命來副主委您要補充謝謝委員的提醒我們會跟文化部通力來合作然後往這個目標大家能夠盡快的達到這樣的目標"},{"start":9820.976,"end":9848.749,"text":"那因為那個院長您也剛到任我提醒回去review當初跟文資局的簽署的MOU我當然理解這個主責是文化部但是在一個新設組織的誕生的過程我一定要叮嚀你們文化不要成為outsider我們都要有文化思維好不好那給你們鼓勵謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝吳司堯委員我們現在呢依先前的宣告先休息五分鐘再繼續諮詢"},{"start":10187.298,"end":10195.923,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接下來我們有請我們王宏威王委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請我們吳副主委有請吳副主委還有我們的副人事長副人事長"},{"start":10219.168,"end":10240.159,"text":"請問一下我們這個海洋科技營運中心請問一下未來我們成立的話一年的預算會是多少錢目前預估115年下半年會需要到6000萬的經費然後116年大概3億116到118大概差不多3億左右"},{"start":10241.164,"end":10257.827,"text":"所以正常的话因为你这个115年是因为下半年成立所以正常的话一年的预算是超过3亿对不对好那我请问一下那么请问一下我们的中心的原额预估原额是多少"},{"start":10258.839,"end":10277.833,"text":"100人100人所以未來是一個100人的原額的業務然後一年要花到3億我看到資料是317118是要花到3億6對不對那這個部分這個錢預算是主要是由公務支出嘛"},{"start":10278.593,"end":10287.542,"text":"主要是公務支出所以我們把它可以視為是未來我們政府要負擔一年大概3億6一個100元額的一個中心好 我再請教一下我們現在海委會的員額屬於警察文職人員的部分"},{"start":10298.853,"end":10311.982,"text":"現在我們看到的資料預算原額是4248人現有的原額人數是3653人所以呢事實上我們現在不足原來的預算原額對吧對還沒有全部進行"},{"start":10314.909,"end":10332.055,"text":"好 所以如果按照這個數字來看的話我們海委會其實如果我們要充實我們相關的業務要充實我們相關的員額其實我們並沒有到頂我們還有差額大概將近600人將近600人所以"},{"start":10336.716,"end":10352.151,"text":"夫人市長所以我們如果今天要用同樣的業務如果在海委會覺得說我需要有這些業務然後我的其實我可以用的員額人數更多將近600人是吧"},{"start":10354.271,"end":10372.077,"text":"謝謝委員提示那我跟委員報告一下因為他這個差了590幾人是因為海巡署跟海委會他有提報海巡特考高補考試的職缺那這個部分每年都有固定的考試那我們在今年114年2月的時候因為海巡署他有那個增建造艦的計畫"},{"start":10373.897,"end":10392.59,"text":"那這個部分因為艦跨要交了所以接下來我們依照他每一條船應該配置多少人這部分還有核定增加原格海巡署 海委會未來他們會再提就這些人的規劃再提報海巡特考的人員進去所以這個等於是說考試前所以這個意思是說因為你要補足假如說你要補足這將近六百人他們需要考試"},{"start":10399.875,"end":10418.494,"text":"但是如果你到這個中心的話就不需要考試是吧因為這兩個是不同的身份屬性兩個是不同這邊的是屬於海巡的基本上就是等於是公務員那那個是行政法人所自己禁用的那他們的要求資格等等那兩個是不一樣完全不一樣"},{"start":10418.834,"end":10436.787,"text":"好可是問題是說當我們成立行政法人我們就要去看就是原來這個行政法人他的業務到底我原來海委會或者我原來海委會所成立的其他的行政法人他的業務有沒有涵蓋好我們來看一下"},{"start":10438.292,"end":10445.337,"text":"這裡面就是有沒有業務重疊的地方譬如講你現在國家海洋科技運營中心你們現在有所謂的八大業務但是我們海委會還成立了"},{"start":10454.503,"end":10475.058,"text":"包含的這個就是海洋研究院還有我們國家實驗研究院的台灣海洋科技研究中心所以如果我們去對比一下相關的業務按照你們的八大業務裡面起碼有很多的業務事實上包含國家海洋研究院"},{"start":10475.879,"end":10494.772,"text":"或者是我們國家實驗研究院的海洋科技研究中心或者是我們國家研究院的船舶及海洋產業研發中心等等也都有相關的業務所以我想請教的就是"},{"start":10496.161,"end":10506.445,"text":"我們所要發展的這些業務沒有不好但是它中間有沒有一再的成立行政法人而讓他的業務有跌床架屋的一個問題因為我剛剛特別講一個原額一百人的我們這個中心"},{"start":10514.648,"end":10535.937,"text":"那未來一年都要花到三億六那事實上你去看我們現在的行政中心我們現在很多的行政法人中心幾乎大家都沒有什麼自籌的能力雖然說有一些自償有些你可以募款或者是你甚至可以舉債但舉債也一定要有自償性所以我們成立越來越多的所謂的行政法人"},{"start":10538.658,"end":10565.926,"text":"那過去所詬病的就是成立行政法人之後他用的錢是誰的錢 仍然是公務預算他並不會因此他自己有我們不要說他有什麼變成金積母啦他至少要自給自足 也沒有絕大部分的行政法人都沒有自給自足的能力他全部用的是公務預算好 那如果他的業務有其特殊性必要性 我們覺得也OK可是如果按照這個業務來看的話這八大業務"},{"start":10568.907,"end":10586.351,"text":"那你的那個國家海洋研究院呢還有國家實驗研究院也都有這些業務啊那我請問一下原來的行政法人你也沒有裁撤啊你也沒有裁撤然後每天生一些新的業務然後說我必須要再增加這些業務一年要花掉3億6每一次我們在講說我們有一個法條他就會出來說我們這個有沒有裁員呢這個裁員來自哪裡啊對不對"},{"start":10598.314,"end":10626.842,"text":"一年316也不是一個小數字啊而且是原額100元所以這個有關業務重疊的部分那個副主委有沒有說法經費的部分不會年年因為等到我們自主營運之後呢未來有一些受託的業務呢也可以增加收入的來源會降低政府的這樣子的經費的意志那你預估未來316有多少他是可以自籌的可以告訴我們成立一個新的中心財務規劃非常非常重要"},{"start":10627.302,"end":10642.437,"text":"好 那一年316 那麼有多少的經費可以來自於自籌我本來是想說會逐年的可以來降低政府的這個預租的一個經費然後詳細的估算的部分當然那個國海院那邊他會去做一個整理這樣不行喔 對"},{"start":10643.058,"end":10670.185,"text":"我意思就是說我們現在政府因為不管是有一些新的機構成立或者是尤其這個行政法人我覺得未來其實在財務的部分要有一個比較嚴謹的估算不然你跟我講說每個要成立的時候都說我們一定會想辦法自籌財源我們一定會想辦法來降低我們公務預算的這個負擔可是後來不但沒有降低有的還越來越多"},{"start":10671.445,"end":10689.813,"text":"是不是所以我在這邊希望你們可不可以用最短的時間至少一個禮拜的時間能夠把你們有關於未來的財務規劃比較詳細的資料提供給包含我們的內政委員會跟我們司法法治委員會可以嗎可不可以兩個禮拜"},{"start":10692.234,"end":10713.519,"text":"兩個禮拜可以啊因為我覺得這個時間我希望你們提出來的是因為提出來它未來就是我們可以去追蹤考核的嘛不然每個人都是這樣子嘛想要成立成立之後你也關不掉啊所以我剛才講啊請你們也好好去研究啊跟其他的國史院也好或者這個海洋研究院也好"},{"start":10713.999,"end":10719.705,"text":"妳有沒有跌床架屋的地方呢有沒有其他地方 它緣何可以刪減呢不然我們養人 養人 再養人養了一些人 兩個業務也差不多是要打架嗎 還是大家要互別苗頭呢是不是 因為"},{"start":10729.996,"end":10749.519,"text":"國家政府的資源有限這些業務我都承認它是重要的可是同樣的業務有三組人馬在做那就是不對的 那就叫做沒有效率那說到更難聽一點 大家會覺得說你們是不是要去酬庸啊都會有這樣的質疑 好不好"},{"start":10751.28,"end":10777.028,"text":"這個業務會不會重置的部分事實上我們都一直有在盤點而且我們也知道很多委員都關切這個議題那我們這個海科中心事實上對於這個調查船整體包括我們未來4000噸的這個調查船這個是其他的中心所沒有的然後我們的國家船模實驗室未來的營運這個也是其他的中心所沒有的包括那個國科會下屬的這個這個實驗院的這個中心的部分他主要是佛大學跟學術單位啦所以"},{"start":10778.268,"end":10790.296,"text":"我們都有去盤點這些不要去重置這個資源那這個對於國家的整個關鍵核心技術包括這些船模實驗的本土化是非常重要的一個旅程好 我跟你講我就在講我沒有說這業務不重要好 那你這兩個禮拜請給我"},{"start":10793.999,"end":10803.208,"text":"比如說你海洋調查及實驗技術之研究開發是你第一個業務嗎對不對可是問題是海洋研究院也有同樣業務那請問這兩個業務有什麼不同可不可以告訴我一下譬如說國家海洋調查船的營運管理這麼重要重要"},{"start":10810.836,"end":10835.922,"text":"好 那可是問題是國家海洋研究院 船舶機海洋產業研發中心也有同樣的業務那你們兩個業務 兩個單位的業務又有什麼不一樣呢好不好 你這兩個禮拜可以把這個業務有沒有重疊有沒有疊床架屋的問題也能幫忙理清好不好我們提供報告 然後做一個比較詳細的說明美 我跟你講 真的一年316 我總是希望我們的錢花在刀口上好不好 好 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10838.664,"end":10852.106,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員這個早上的委員到現在其實大家相同的問題都很關注啦所以這個兩個禮拜請提供資料給內政委員會跟司法法制委員會接下來我們有請王逸川委員質詢我們請副主委請副主委跟院長好關海陳院長"},{"start":10869.525,"end":10872.972,"text":"請教一下這個國家海洋研究院的陳院長"},{"start":10874.52,"end":10900.499,"text":"在這一個新的海洋科技營運中心的這個設置條例的第三條有寫到中心的業務這些業務會有一些跟你現在組長的這一個院研究院的業務會有重疊對吧那這個重疊的部分你站在一個現在是一個國家海洋研究院的院長的角度這業務大家接下來怎麼分工"},{"start":10902.672,"end":10925.562,"text":"謝謝委員提問其實講重疊是文字上可是事實上我們在執行上是不一樣的國海院主要還是負責所謂的一個研究的一個規劃政策面那現在目前成立的行政法人主要是要想要實地能夠執行全海域的真正的一個調查全海域的調查我想強調這個沒辦法在國海院做沒辦法因為我們現在國海院因為全海院調查要傳這是傳源"},{"start":10928.275,"end":10947.808,"text":"我講說如果調查船的部分 這次要船員聘僱的是船長、輪機長、大管還有包括探測長實施這些專業科技的部分船某的部分也沒辦法 因為船某是涉及非常高精明度的船某的實驗 還有包括設備的安裝還有包括實驗數據 還有包括我們要水下載具的參數這一部分現在目前來講 國海院裡面的人力現在編制只有78名"},{"start":10956.474,"end":10966.337,"text":"而且當時的郭海銘你們的人也不是在做這些事情那現在新的成立了這個營運中心這裡頭顯然會不會有公務員嗎營運中心沒有沒有公務員沒有"},{"start":10971.257,"end":10991.457,"text":"OK那第二個啊是這一個你剛剛講原來編制有100人100人含船員嗎應該說我們沒有應該說中心裡面事實上是沒有編制的只是說我們預估基本的預估船母跟調查船需要的人因為你這一艘船蓋完一定有至少基本的這個配備的船員好那100人含船員"},{"start":10992.317,"end":11020.235,"text":"對 海船員好 那接下來我看你頭比較具有特色是那個4000噸的那一艘嘛因為100噸跟300噸現在各海洋聯盟的大學應該也有100噸跟300噸了或者是商業的調查船有嗎 有所以你們做這個100噸跟300噸做什麼用前海域的調查 還有包括像吳斯堯委員有提到不是 那這些現在海洋聯盟的大學沒辦法做嘛"},{"start":11021.404,"end":11039.078,"text":"聯盟大學他們主要是做這個現在國科會下面就是有四招嘛大概都是一千噸八百多噸以上的他們主要是做這個科學研究的各個老師去跟國會申請這個所謂的傳奇那我們現在目前有做一些100噸跟300噸那你們這個100噸跟300噸的接下來這些老師申請研究的時候會來跟你們申請嗎"},{"start":11044.224,"end":11072.53,"text":"自己國海運會編預算來執行全海域的調查所以你們不接受其他人來要求嗎應該說目前我們優先順序上還是以我們本要執行本預算的這個全海域調查當然如果說有其他的一個船級上的一個需求的話我們當然也樂意就是說可以跟學術單位合作提到你們的這個收入嘛那你們如果要接受其他單位的委託或者是借你們的船其實這個船本來是海委會也不是這個中心的啦那"},{"start":11073.63,"end":11080.978,"text":"就要有收入啊 那這個收入當然你就是要會去跟那個海洋聯盟那些或者國科會他們的船會有競爭啊"},{"start":11083.846,"end":11107.061,"text":"應該說現在目前國科會系統裡面大概學員單位的申請大概只有78可以安排到傳期所以事實上這個是有缺口的所以事實上我們執行的任務跟國科會的那個系統裡面的對象是不同的那我們現在目前本院在執行全海域調查裡面事實上我們也跟內政部還有包括經濟部都有很密切的一個合作因為內政部本身也會做那個地會調查"},{"start":11108.041,"end":11126.331,"text":"那經濟部他有時候因為一些業務上的一個需要也會做一些海洋的一些資源的一個探測那所以在這部分裡面我們互相的一個計畫上的一個支援事實上是會向互補的那如果未來調查團如果能夠成立的話新建完工的話我們希望能夠把台灣整個全海域的一個調查能夠把它整個完工的一個"},{"start":11126.431,"end":11143.297,"text":"那這些現有的調達船不管是國家的或者是商業的或者是接下來你們這營運中心的100噸、300噸跟4000噸的船每一艘船的分工啊這個行政院有政務委員在整合嗎"},{"start":11147.547,"end":11169.638,"text":"海委會自己本身的三艘調查團部分我們這邊跟其他的包括國科會的包括其他大學的應該是未來啦 未來我們會期待成立一個所謂的研究船的一個平台那針對這個所謂的需求端還有包括調查船的這個船期的供應端裡面我們希望能夠建置一個"},{"start":11169.738,"end":11189.741,"text":"我是建議你們主動跟行政院報告,請行政院找政務委員出來整合因為接下來的調查,包括學校老師的調查,不要大家弄到最後變成一種狀況就是找商業船比較容易,或者找國科會比較容易,找營運中心很麻煩"},{"start":11190.322,"end":11210.635,"text":"好 就是不要這種 就是到最後還要去競爭啦 這個競爭是沒有意義的啦那第二個這個4000噸的這一艘啊 接下來會是台灣現有的最大艘嘛 對不對最大艘調查船那這個操作這一艘船的 就是這個營運中心不會委外"},{"start":11214.394,"end":11223.344,"text":"那你們100個人裡頭 就是說你們原有編制這100嘛不是編制就是說你們期待會有100的嘛那會不會這些人到最後他們是在發包啊我先再跟委員澄清一下 我們現在100的你們是沒有包括4000噸的船員喔"},{"start":11234.151,"end":11262.912,"text":"因為我們現在沒有顧到那麼遠因為那個4000噸大概會在118年的時候才完工所以我們現在比較穩健啦穩健的推估我為什麼這樣問這些同仁接下來進到營運中心的同仁會不會再辦招標啊不會啦 因為本身我們就是拚顧船員啊那你們這個營運中心會有設研究人員嗎沒有應該說船舶實驗室會有啦應該說裡面的編制會有船舶跟釣船員船舶實驗室會再有委託大學老師做實驗嗎"},{"start":11264.451,"end":11267.172,"text":"因為交通部運輸研究所雖然他是這個公務體系但是他的大部分現在的研究員都在做發包工作"},{"start":11281.36,"end":11303.631,"text":"都在委託學校老師 顧問公司做研究那就失去了這個設立的意義嘛所以你們如果這個營運中心啊盡可能自己培養自己的研究人員才能夠把人才留住嘛不要到這種高階的研究人員博士啊 助理教授級進來到這個中心他竟然在辦理發包的工作這個就沒有什麼意義了好 謝謝謝謝王一川委員我們接下來請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":11317.853,"end":11338.928,"text":"主席有請吳副主委 請吳副主委副主委好那今天司法內政聯席審查國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案那我們的海委會管弊林主委沒有出席"},{"start":11339.946,"end":11368.953,"text":"那我個人是覺得這個主委有時間去參加民進黨人民式投家的宣講會來為所謂的大罷免助政那卻不出席海委會所屬的行政法案設置條例的審議那也算是一個比較特殊的時間管理主委在內政委員會業務報告那我現在請教您 請教副主委海巡署去年跟今年對預算各多少海巡署 那個謝副可以請我們副署長來說"},{"start":11372.532,"end":11398.701,"text":"委員好我們大概都是兩百多億兩百多少我印象中是兩百三十幾億你是海委會你還要靠印象我是海巡署我是說海巡署你還要靠印象精確數字再跟委員報告你是海巡署你的預算編列還要靠印象還精確數字會後再報告嗎有這種事情嗎不會吧"},{"start":11407.701,"end":11415.825,"text":"好啦 你也示範一個我們的海巡署 去年編列253.56億嘛 沒錯吧今年編列288.35億嘛 對不對增加34.78億嘛 對不對我都沒錯嘛 對不對自己的預算我覺得還是要多了解一點啦我覺得"},{"start":11429.808,"end":11451.604,"text":"這個真的也不是 這對一個部門 我在部門待過這對部門本身來講common sense對部門來說是common sense如果這個都不知道 我覺得是有點遺憾謝謝委員指教那主委在3月29號參加高雄廠的人民士投價政策宣講會他說海巡署的預算被刪了8.27億元 對不對被凍結8.85億元"},{"start":11458.55,"end":11487.149,"text":"沒錯嘛那因為預算被刪減所以他認為說8艘海巡艦艇無法養護睡休不能出門那海巡官兵拋神槍救生衣戰術背心防彈頭盔都受到影響那管主也說在海上遇到對方有武器時海巡弟兄保護自己防彈背心防彈頭盔怎麼能刪很不甘預算被刪是刪掉海巡弟兄姊妹的平安"},{"start":11488.854,"end":11496.716,"text":"我剛剛看到也跟您在就教討論 實際上我們去年跟今年的預算編列從253億到288億 增加了34.78億預算比去年增加 結果防彈背心 防彈頭盔都沒有了"},{"start":11512.481,"end":11530.107,"text":"我不知道那是以前就沒有防彈背心防彈頭盔還是現在我們還循屬要把防彈背心跟防彈頭盔拿掉呢以前預算更少的時候這些都在那結果現在預算更多了反而不在"},{"start":11532.482,"end":11554.75,"text":"包委員 因為在編預算的時候 我們有不同科目別有的有增加 有的有減少我就問你防彈背心 防彈頭盔嘛 主委講的啊是 這部分我們除了8億好啦 去年有沒有嘛去年都有 也有今年沒有了嗎那個數目不夠 所以我們會減相減相啊我告訴你啦 多了34億"},{"start":11556.946,"end":11567.477,"text":"超過百分之十以上了啦預算增加啦那還跟我講說連防彈背心 防彈頭盔它是被刪掉喔還不是營養不夠喔講白了就是無病呻吟"},{"start":11575.39,"end":11592.065,"text":"也就是配合所謂的大罷免做的一系列的造謠那我想請問 沒關係啦我覺得海巡弟兄的安全我們還是最在乎的嘛 對不對那既然我們主委一直大聲哭窮那我想請問海委會跟海巡署的預算解答案什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":11596.307,"end":11620.597,"text":"我們目前正在整理那個解通報告因為有146案那其中有126案要專案報告所以必須要仔細的去檢視這些委員所要求的內容所以目前還在處理報告當中現在幾月啊現在4月我看起來不急嘛海巡弟兄的防彈頭盔防彈背心海巡弟兄的所有東西你們竟然都說凍結案"},{"start":11623.052,"end":11641.727,"text":"預算增加的人還說凍結衝擊到結果現在跟我講說都還在準備沒藥沒金啦那我想問嘛都還在準備下禮拜可以嗎可以把解凍案拿出來嗎作為主管"},{"start":11653.229,"end":11676.474,"text":"這個連這個都不知道就沒準備嘛還要幕僚跟你講這麼重大的事如果是我以前當政府官員解凍案什麼時候送出來我會不知道還要靠幕僚就跟剛剛預算多少還要去查資料要匯後報告因為行政院現在自行調整的三點數好啦我跟你講行政院跟你們下的指令就是不要放解凍案啦我知道啦就這麼簡單啦所以你們就在拖嘛那我要問你齁"},{"start":11680.956,"end":11708.91,"text":"下個月可以送出來嗎?給我一個期間好不好?20秒過去了,給不出期間反無奈的海巡弟兄的安全,照你們的說法如果是被凍結有影響那麼大的話你們無藥無菌"},{"start":11710.899,"end":11729.13,"text":"連下個月你都沒辦法告訴我說 把那個解斷案提出來那兩個月後可以嗎還是到年底好了 年底提好不好要不然年底提 還是大罷免結束後再提是不是大罷免結束後就會提了這個沒關係啦沒關係啊 大有關係拖到現在都沒有拿出來我們都關心海巡弟兄啊"},{"start":11739.517,"end":11768.291,"text":"可是在解凍案這件事情上 抱歉我沒有看到海委會跟海巡署的關係 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員的質詢這個解凍案 這個確實這個部分 你們說一共一百幾案這個工程就好大了 這個工程好大還要在院會交下來 還要召委再排案來 接下來我們有請高金素梅委員"},{"start":11773.871,"end":11788.085,"text":"有請副主委有請副主委副主委你在立法院多久了大聲一點嗎委員是說在海委會對兩年多"},{"start":11789.016,"end":11814.776,"text":"所以妳也是算是資深的公務員對不對我是基層公務員上來好 我在立法院23年了我真的第一次看到我們的行政院可以開口的跟我們所有的行政部門說不要提出解凍案這是太離譜了我看到妳剛剛都無奈委員146案我們的確需要時間不管幾案我們審完預算到現在已經多久了"},{"start":11815.692,"end":11840.785,"text":"因為今年公告的時間多久了今天公告是3月才公告嘛 對不對好了 不要在這裡辯解了啦你們竟然覺得我們的海巡地胸安全是這麼重要你們早就應該要提出來了這是我在立法院23年來已經開議了然後從來不排解動案這是莫名其妙好 今天我要審查你的海洋委員會的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例"},{"start":11841.545,"end":11861.259,"text":"我看到了你們從專業人才 組織彈性 政府監督 還有公共利用來說明設置行政法人的優勢我覺得呢 潛藏了非常多的質疑的地方首先在業務方面 我們來談一下為了國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建置計畫 已經有6年囉從111年到116年"},{"start":11865.362,"end":11870.024,"text":"然後還有海洋基礎資料調查船興建計劃112年到118年6年的計劃但是我們看一下我們去年在審查預算的時候我們就發現國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建設計劃從111年開始112年就大幅修正你們的計劃要調整13億餘元並且你們要展延期程18個月"},{"start":11893.672,"end":11911.852,"text":"113年你們的執行率就不如預期了呀再來看海洋基礎資料調查船興建計畫從112年就有預算執行率非常低的問題請問副主委為什麼不先解討這兩個計畫執行的問題反而急於意識要設置行政法人請簡短說明"},{"start":11916.036,"end":11918.158,"text":"因為在施工的過程當中也發現第一個整個地基的部分因為靠海"},{"start":11934.455,"end":11948.95,"text":"包括所謂的工程我們那個整個基樁要往下再挖深還有包括基柱要再加所以這以後不會有形成問題嗎不會你席在百元成立以後你就可以就不會有這個地層下旋的問題了嗎所以我們現在工程的部分就是要解決這個"},{"start":11951.132,"end":11967.682,"text":"我們可以看到你的計畫才剛上路就不斷的更改一直加錢還拖延時程結果你們的執行率是一塌糊塗然後接著我要跟你來談人的問題我們有看到非常多的行政法人董事長不是部長就是政委"},{"start":11968.522,"end":11992.734,"text":"不是副首長就是政事整個法人變成了監督機關的延伸而我們行政法人設立本來他的目的是要補足政府的不足民間的不及重點是要非常專業要中立還有有效率請問一下副主委我們的海洋科技營運中心的董事長會有主委還是底下的政事兼任"},{"start":11994.616,"end":12020.995,"text":"請問目前的規劃是由主委對嘛這個因為監督機關也要討論說誰比較合適啦好啦我知道啦我要講的是規劃設置好公開公平公正的人選招聘機制就應該是要來好好監督行政法人結果呢你們的這個部長次長參加了你要怎麼樣監督呢"},{"start":12022.216,"end":12035.463,"text":"然後整個行政法人搞成行政機關的黑機關這還有獨立性專業性可言嗎你們雖然表面上說人事任用表面上是有彈性的實際上我們看到一片綠油油你們更誇張的是還說規劃編制要100人然後未來可以依照營運情況來增加"},{"start":12046.687,"end":12061.059,"text":"你們為什麼不讓人認為這是預留人事大門然後方便塞人養人的計畫我們來看一下以前往例行政法人長期以來一直以來就有行政不章的問題我們在114年度審預算的時候我們看到的是"},{"start":12066.523,"end":12088.428,"text":"國家表演藝術中心國家電影視聽文化中心國家太空中心文化內容策進院等等多個行政法人通通被發現幾乎都是要全面仰賴政府的補助他的收入結構極度單一更諷刺的是連他們自己提出的績效評鑑報告他們都非常的承認也坦承說自籌裁員嚴重不足"},{"start":12095.151,"end":12104.28,"text":"這個完全是背離了行政法人 應該要有的自主營運還有永續發展的精神請問一下 設置行政法人的目的是為了什麼?"},{"start":12106.056,"end":12133.272,"text":"這個部分當然一開始需要有政府支援的挹注啦因為這個是一個國家的關鍵核心你不要再講這些了當時在成立這些法人的時候他們也都這麼講啊可是呢他們現在講什麼他們現在都講說我們的居校請願報告他說自籌裁員嚴重不足耶那你們以後會不會自籌裁員也嚴重不足呢請問一下會有一個估算報告會提供到這個委員會來"},{"start":12134.457,"end":12149.912,"text":"所以你的意思說以後不會營運不足囉你們會變成另外一個政府的負擔請問會不會 如果會怎麼辦我要提醒副主委啦國家海洋科技營運中心在115年雖然你們只有編6300多萬但是118年預算你們就膨脹到了3.6億"},{"start":12157.62,"end":12181.58,"text":"而且這還是預估喔這樣的征服不僅僅令人質疑預算控管的合理性尤其你們一半的費用都用在人事費也是讓人擔心未來會不會變成一個高耗能低效益的行政法人然後放眼一看全部都是綠油油副主委我告訴你我們不是反對海洋科技"},{"start":12182.501,"end":12188.727,"text":"我們也沒有反對但是呢我們是要監督而且你們做的事情是要配套然後我們真的不希望它是一個掛羊頭賣狗肉的機構如果你們這一套邏輯成立的話那麼以後是不是每一個部會都可以設立行政法人那麼以後立法院要怎麼實質監督你們"},{"start":12205.743,"end":12228.612,"text":"我們的這個傳播實驗室跟調查團的部分這個專業人力就是專業人才的那個需求度的部分非常的高那這個不是一般的就是說考試啊或什麼禁用可以你剛剛都已經說了啦剛剛也有委員在剛剛也有委員在質詢你們這部分所以最後我要說的是請你們把制度設計清楚"},{"start":12229.352,"end":12252.689,"text":"把責任理清楚然後把財政影響講清楚然後再來談立法最後人民的納稅錢不是給執政黨隨便拿來亂花用的我們看到以前的行政法人的績效不彰就可以清楚知道我不希望你們未來成立之後又變成另外一個這個不彰的行政法人可以嗎"},{"start":12253.89,"end":12266.418,"text":"請你們負責任請你們負責任好不好請你們把我剛剛以上講的這幾個通通收來立法院了之後我們再來評估要不要立法我們的立法宣布委員支持 謝謝"},{"start":12270.245,"end":12292.62,"text":"謝謝高菁委員 接下來請徐宇珍委員 徐宇珍委員不在徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在鄭正前 鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在岳元之 岳元之 岳元之委員不在"},{"start":12294.025,"end":12309.497,"text":"這樣就都不來了 好 來我們所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料會以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及聯席"},{"start":12313.381,"end":12337.831,"text":"那這樣就今天所有提的沒有沒有沒有我們本次的會議就到此結束了那我們所提的書面質詢軍列錄徐宇貞委員所提書面質詢有提嗎軍列錄記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那我們本次會議"},{"start":12339.051,"end":12353.457,"text":"到此結束 哎呀 你剛才說來 我說結束你怎麼來來 請徐 人都還沒走啦徐議員質詢 來 三位我還沒說完啦川伯白他還沒跟你說看你那個氣喘聲那麼大就是很盡責 多給你一分鐘"},{"start":12369.76,"end":12386.999,"text":"感謝主席我先處理一下會議時間 上午會議時間我們繼續進行到所有委員登記發言 詢問結束為止接著請齊信維質詢謝謝主席 本席請副主委請吳副主委"},{"start":12390.859,"end":12392.94,"text":"副主委今天我們要審這個"},{"start":12408.269,"end":12430.558,"text":"國家海洋科技營運中心的設置條例草案我們想請問一下國家海洋科技中心那現在因為有國科會海洋中心所以我不知道說這兩個的區隔您可以簡單說一下嗎國科會那個國實驗下設的中心比較是佛學術研究跟學校在做申請的"},{"start":12431.238,"end":12446.731,"text":"那我們的這個海科中心未來會比較針對那個船模實驗室以及這個調查船的營運管理當然也會受海委會的一些督導然後執行一些事項所以兩個是有層次上的一些區隔"},{"start":12447.392,"end":12465.024,"text":"好 那因為我們看到你們提的這個報告報告裡面兩大目標嘛一個是提升我國海洋科技能力第二個是厚植海洋科技研究能量那當然您剛剛講的大概是你們五大效益裡面的前三項 沒有錯"},{"start":12466.686,"end":12486.759,"text":"滿足完整船模試驗需求還有發展本土關鍵的核心技術還有建構國家海洋調查船隊沒有錯但是我本席也很好奇因為你還有第四點加速海域基礎資料建置所以這個部分"},{"start":12488.393,"end":12505.864,"text":"因為剛好我念的碩博士都是整個全球海洋面的不管近海還是海洋還是遠洋就是整個大洋的這方面的研究所以我想請問那你們這個列在第四點有沒有相關的人可以來做這一項的說明"},{"start":12509.788,"end":12521.222,"text":"報告委員那加速海域基礎資料調查的一個建制主要就是因為其實我們現在一直在建制當中的我們現在目前國海院本身有設置一個國家海洋資料庫我是國際海洋院院長"},{"start":12524.944,"end":12546.313,"text":"現在我們本身就有在建置海域基礎資料了包括所有包括本院的計劃還有其他單位的這個計劃案所收集的這個海域的一個資料都有做建置的然後包括我們設計一個國家海洋資料庫然後第二點就是說如果我們未來中心成立的話我們本身有調查船那調查船就可以更有系統的一般所謂的研究船嗎"},{"start":12546.773,"end":12568.885,"text":"對 就研究船 對 就是可以有更有系統的在去整個全海域的一個區域作業的規劃調查那會發展一些技術嗎因為就我本席了解好像現在很多技術都是跟美國 跟NOAA在買的我們現在目前調查船裡面所配置的科儀這一部分是會有構置這個比較尖端的一個科儀的部分那這部分是不是有再做進一步的技術研發"},{"start":12570.049,"end":12599.275,"text":"所以其實這個海洋委員會的海洋科技營運中心它主要就還是為了我們那個船舶的因為你們本來這些基本的建制一直都有在海洋研究院就有了所以這一個它主要還是這個整個船舶實驗室或是發展這個核心技術那我想請教一下那個你們這邊有設立董事長董事長他有需要一些專業嗎還是其實不用"},{"start":12600.348,"end":12609.518,"text":"我們這個是行政法人現在國內行政法人的立法體會有監督機關的首長都是無給職的來做一個擔任主要是負責監督機關會來負責監督這個行政法人"},{"start":12613.263,"end":12628.795,"text":"所以你們這個所謂國家海洋科技營運中心像海委會也會要購置所謂的無人機不管是空中的還是水底下的你們都會需要購置那像這個部分你們在未來這個營運中心"},{"start":12631.598,"end":12645.618,"text":"開始之後這個部分會讓我們對採購這一些對海洋科技跟海洋整個的監控會有幫助嗎因為剛好我們今天在內政委員會是海委會嘛那我們這個"},{"start":12649.15,"end":12673.798,"text":"從112年到今年114年我想你們知道我們採購的這個無人機我們跟廠商簽約了兩億多結果到今年本來應該要交貨了結果呢發現這個不敷使用可能要毀約了要解約了那像這個未來我們如果有這個海洋科技營運中心的話那是不是可以就我們比較不會就這樣這個好像就"},{"start":12677.796,"end":12707.148,"text":"到了第三年突然錢也損失了然後我們人等於這個進度我們採購的無人機也沒有辦法達成我們預期目標謝謝委員那有關於無人機部分我們現在目前調查船的規劃裡面是沒有的那我們調查船主要是做海上的調查所以會有配置下一些我的意思就是說你是寫說海洋科技營運中心所以你們其實應該就是大概也不叫海洋科技可能就是只是要"},{"start":12707.808,"end":12736.467,"text":"做這個船而已不一定 還有船模船模也是很重要的一塊就相關的嘛 船模實驗嘛船模事實上非常重要的一塊裡面會包括關鍵核心本土關鍵技術核心的一個建制所以你們這個並不這名稱很大啦海洋 國家海洋科技營運中心但實際上你大概就是只做船模我們現在國家沒有自己的船模實驗室啦那很多的實驗還要跑到國外去那你應該成立一個船模"},{"start":12737.327,"end":12762.058,"text":"但為了傳模實驗室跟調查團經費給下去 人力給下去不就差不多可以人才的部分需要專業性度非常高所以我們必須要用一個比較彈性的行政法人的方式來把這些人才實驗室也可以聘很多的人才吧但我們現在是國海院如果在國海院底下它是有機關員額的限制還有禁用的一個管道的限制所以沒有辦法在現在國海院裡面處理"},{"start":12762.938,"end":12776.348,"text":"好 了解 我想這個大家可能也可以來深思好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝徐信儀委員的質詢本次會議到此結束我們現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"160295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4c7efaaea7935444d320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b49df83089e6eba09255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:47:09 - 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單位的功能積分還有協調分工是什麼是否有進行資源盤點的報告避免重複投資是否有能提供的具體的資料"},{"start":58.8,"end":87.591,"text":"各位報告就是我們事實上都有去盤點不會有資源重疊的一個狀況那跟那個國食院下設的這個海科中心事實上他們我剛剛有報告他們是屬於比較學術研究或學術研究型的個案執行的部分那我們這個設置中心國家海航科技營運中心未來主要要這個船模實驗室還有調查船整體的一個營運這樣子的一個管理等等的主要的是這個部分的功能"},{"start":88.191,"end":108.326,"text":"那現在各單位有的這些船舶我們其實上也接近一些國家在整合海洋調查研究船隊這樣的一個經驗我們也會建立這個科研船的合作平台跟資源機制這個是都有在做規劃好你在講這樣子你看我上次的PPT是不是打臉你自己呢"},{"start":110.199,"end":125.497,"text":"你講的東西是不是你說很平均但是這個資料是不是打臉你自己70%這樣是不是你講的是不是跟我們看到你們的資料是這樣"},{"start":129.272,"end":153.046,"text":"請問一下那個70%這個資料我不曉得委員是從哪邊來不過我們自己的這邊的一個調查裡面事實上目前現有的一個科研船確實在科研單位的需求都不夠的100%是依據國科會的資料因為國科會它的運作方式是由各學術單位會來提出申請那確實現在目前申請的所以你們的誇不會就是說這樣子誇的嗎"},{"start":154.187,"end":177.969,"text":"他們做他們的我們做我們的我們不知道他們怎麼樣我只有知道我的就好我們知道他們的我的意思是說國科會他是針對的是所謂的學術型的一個個人學者的一個計畫的一個申請再去做傳奇的一個安排所以我才要說你們有沒有盤點有沒有就是說資源投資的還有資源的重疊"},{"start":179.41,"end":203.703,"text":"這樣子每一個人做都一樣的話 我們政府的錢 我們人民的錢都是隨便花嗎所以說我希望就是要說提供具體的資料給我但是我們看到的是這樣 那是你們講的又不一樣是不是就很直接打臉了對不對現在的研究船企那個是不足的 對 就整個吊航船的那個量能是不夠的"},{"start":205.344,"end":232.059,"text":"所以說你們就是要去跟就是國科會來去做跨部會來去研究來去整合來看要怎麼樣去盤點我覺得才達到我們要設立這個好意這個中心因為我們海科中心採的是行政法人模式但是目前要提升營運的彈性但是過去如就是國研院"},{"start":233.26,"end":245.05,"text":"知車會也出現法人化後的效率未見提升所以財務與人事的模式也是很模糊等的問題所以要請教我們本中心的營運的績效評估還有機制上如何設計還有第二個是否有年度的KBI有哪個部會負責職責監督"},{"start":259.641,"end":280.094,"text":"還有未拔成那樣的效果所以我們要如何有進廠的或重整的機制這個部分有沒有蔣委員報告未來的監督機關就是海洋委員會那我們剛剛委員提到的我們要的是機制還有一個一個設計的部分讓我們更清楚因為你要設中心大家都認同"},{"start":286.078,"end":310.7,"text":"但是要讓人民讓說大家覺得這個對大家是好的我們希望就是完整謝謝委員提醒那這些部分我們現在都在草擬相關的執法當中包括我剛剛提到的這些監督的機制啦 制度啦當然也會借鑒其他法人的一些的曾經營運的一些的狀況好 所以我們是可以參考說我們日本海上的"},{"start":312.468,"end":331.169,"text":"技術安全研究所每年發表的年度的績效報告依據這樣子的貢獻產官寫就是產業應用與國際合作的上方的評估所以我們也是要去參考別人好的東西這怎麼樣去評估的我們要去做"},{"start":332.31,"end":340.552,"text":"度績效報告所以說我們希望就是要完整一點讓大家覺得說我們要採用這樣子的資料我們再更了解我們在做什麼還有我們現在第三題我想要問的是說我們國家當前繼續掌握水下地的形圖之還有金岸的"},{"start":356.035,"end":358.998,"text":"流產還有港灣穩定的模擬等資料用以強化我們海事的安全還有國防部以海洋災害的預警所以本中心未來三年有哪些重點科技以任務可具體的展現比如說我們如何與國防隊"},{"start":378.898,"end":388.394,"text":"國防部、經濟部還有漁業署等單位進行資料就是公告或成果轉化這個部分"},{"start":390.98,"end":405.828,"text":"所以調查船的這個興建跟船模實驗室的這樣子的一個建造是非常重要的將來這些所取得的資訊就是剛剛委員所提到的不管是國防的安全或者是一些生態、產業等等發展的這些相關的資訊還有海洋綠能等等相關的這些"},{"start":410.07,"end":433.167,"text":"海底調查的一些資訊我們都會提供給相關的機關事實上他們就可以做一個非常好的運用那這個也是我們全海域基礎資料調查船要興建大中小三三種包括4000噸的這樣子的一個所以你很滿意現在的效果嗎我們因為現在在未來是我們要努力的這樣的目標因為所以你也看到說在打臉就是說我們國家"},{"start":436.049,"end":440.831,"text":"海底地形就這樣我們日本韓國所以這我們希望的我們真的準備好一個跨部會的整合還有產學轉譯效果要高而且為我們海洋主權與產業的競爭力貢獻中心有準備好這樣子了嗎我們認為說我們的這個國家級的中心設立是良善的"},{"start":464.522,"end":475.85,"text":"但是我希望看到的就是不只是一個單位我們希望的是一個能夠整合還有就是協同我們創造這個產值的實際還有說各部會要回去檢討如何他部會讓這個中心讓那個中心不是一個單位為了設而設"},{"start":489.28,"end":507.51,"text":"這樣子的話才真正的為我們的海洋 為大家真的是好所以我希望說在一個月內可以提供給我完整的資料嗎這樣可以讓你跟別人說你做得好嗎有有 委員提醒的這些都是我們的目標希望是這樣 好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16599","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685e79a2056330309a2d3ce1f984cbe58114af80a8cb003b9ba3ab3d084712b79495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月16日及17日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-17T08:30:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-17T13:16:00+08:00","duration":17124,"影片長度":"04:45:24","委員發言時間":"08:30:36 - 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謝謝七二變遷署署長蔡玲儀 謝謝大氣環境司司長黃偉明 謝謝水質保護司司長王玉斌 謝謝監測資訊司司長張順欽 謝謝縱委公約司副司長溫修輝"},{"start":1844.674,"end":1868.222,"text":"環境保護師副署長呂雅文資源循環署副署長林建山環境管理署副署長林左翔還有化學物質管理署副署長林長平謝謝國家環境研究院主任周國鼎謝謝會計處專門委員莊惠如"},{"start":1872.586,"end":1893.623,"text":"還有經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇新謝謝民運署副署長彭淑梅謝謝商業發展署署長蔡群儀標準檢驗局檢驗計政鄭乃源還有國民事業管理師科長林漢龍"},{"start":1895.418,"end":1914.833,"text":"好 謝謝台灣電力股份有限公司專業總工程師溫環正好 謝謝台灣總股肯有限公司處長張華瑜謝謝外交部北美司副社長焦國祐謝謝條約法律師科長張家銘"},{"start":1919.755,"end":1945.311,"text":"好謝謝還有我們勞動部職業安全衛生署現在是副署長馬上就要變署長了我們林玉堂好恭喜教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶好謝謝還有我們國民及學情教育署的專門委員薛承佑謝謝好接下來請環境部彭部長就本日議程並案報告請"},{"start":1954.451,"end":1981.164,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在場的媒體朋友好那我來進行兩個報告的專案報告委員報告可不可以有總共十分鐘因為有兩個可以嗎?好那第一個是美國總統川普在今年1月20號就任典禮的時候隨即簽署行政命令退出巴黎氣候協定那預計這個協定是在明年的1月27號就是2026年1月27號生效那他的目前來說的話因為在去年年底的時候"},{"start":1981.684,"end":1995.946,"text":"拜登總統曾經制定了美國NDC 3.0依照目前的這個情況還是具有他的一個效力不過未來他退出之後可能會弱化他的執行而且不予之落實第二個國際上其實目前對NDC 3.0"},{"start":1997.148,"end":2026.4,"text":"也就是說這個減碳目標要到2035年其實目前來說的話還是具有高度的共識目前有19個國家已經繳交了目前沒有一個國家宣布放棄或是退出那另外一個最重要的是美國的確在最近也在修改相關的法令放寬化石燃料或是空污等等的一個限制那台灣來說的話當然如果按照全球美國的趨勢來看的話的確會受到一些減量進程的影響所以可能會未來在低碳技術"},{"start":2027.02,"end":2043.6,"text":"或是相關的減碳的這個企圖性會受到一些影響不過呢因為我們台灣在半導體還有綠能的零組件的供應鏈或許可以來填補這個市場的需求另外一個呢這個也是我們台灣未來面對轉型可以說是一個很好的一個時機因為可能會放慢下來"},{"start":2044.161,"end":2060.779,"text":"我們原先可能比較落後的進度就可以稍微追上來最重要的是說我們是國家國際社會的一員我們也是氣候受災的國家我們趕快走也可以找到我們相近理念的國家一起來努力那目前呢我們針對美國關稅政策最近鄰推動的影響"},{"start":2061.36,"end":2089.14,"text":"大概有兩個部分全球的部分第一個供應鏈受阻當然綠能設備的成本預期未來會增加第二個呢全球綠能的投資的信心還有他減碳的企圖也會顯著的一個受挫第三個呢就是化石燃料可能因為他的價格會開始降低會有他的競爭性這個呢都是不確定的一個影響那但是呢其實全世界到目前為止沒有一個國家做出一個淨零調整的相關的策略"},{"start":2089.54,"end":2106.908,"text":"所以我們對未來還是有信心第一個我們台灣面對的對策上我們進行的目標我們1月23號由戴清德總統公布之後我們的目標不變但是我們會協助企業來進行減碳成本的降低朝向低碳供應鏈能夠盡量讓這個產業輔導我們會進行一些協助降低它的衝擊第二個在這段時間在轉換的過程當中我們要"},{"start":2114.392,"end":2129.137,"text":"趕快推動綠色跟數位雙軸轉型來提高產業的競爭力第三個呢是我們兩個方案就是育領人才的培訓大規模的培訓第二個呢是我們有百億的綠色成長的基金來協助年輕人協助新創公司可以來做綠色的發展"},{"start":2130.157,"end":2154.196,"text":"所以我們希望把化為基為轉基成為台灣成長的新助力那第一個策略一呢是我們會強化氣候政策跟碳治理的主導力我們還會是會遵從大院前幾年公布的氣候變遷因應法我們會積極落實來推動特別是我們有20項的旗艦計畫正在進行未來也需要經費也希望立法院可以協助第二個呢碳定價的制度我們會持續的來進行預計呢現在是已經開始起步了明年5月31號"},{"start":2159.52,"end":2168.927,"text":"要收費收到正式的錢那預計我們同步也會展開跟國際社會同步的就是總量管制的排放教育預計2026年底我們希望來先行測試希望在2027年啟動這個都是幫助產業遇到這種碳關稅的壓力之下提早的一個佈局"},{"start":2178.854,"end":2201.114,"text":"那當然啦最重要的是說因為有些東南亞的國家他進口進來他沒有實施碳稅或碳費的確會對我們台灣本地的產業不公所以我們目前呢也在積極的在研議台版的CBAN就碳邊際的調整機制希望呢我們的產業在國內本地不要遭受到不公平的競爭另外一個呢我們會主動的協助企業提出自願減量的計畫"},{"start":2202.395,"end":2225.008,"text":"目前預計是在6月30號每一個企業我們列管的280幾家企業300多家企業都要提出來他這樣的話他可以得到明年碳費的這個減量的一個幅度那另外一個CBAN要怎麼做其實目前呢歐盟的CBAN如期的在2026年會上路並沒有延緩一年但是他是主要是在2027年2月可以購買"},{"start":2227.169,"end":2245.996,"text":"這個購買的憑證時間是延到2027年2月這個就有一點像是我們的碳費是明年再收繳稅一樣的概念差了一年的時間他還是從明年1月1號開始來做這個事情目前台北的CBAN我們正針對申報的對象產品計算方式跟申報的方式在做研議當中我們已經召開了專家諮詢會議未來就會跟一些產業界我們未來首先的就是針對鋼鐵水泥這是第一批"},{"start":2254.479,"end":2278.952,"text":"這種所謂的碳排放強度來進行試申報來做這個事情所以這個是我們已經在啟動這個演繹了那未來呢第二個呢我們要提供我們的政策工具的應用跟執行力這個就是打底的工作大概有五個面向第一個我們會協助碳盤查業績揭露的供應鏈減碳這個最好有一個很大的平台減輕企業的負擔第二個呢要完備產品碳足跡的資料因為未來呢"},{"start":2279.372,"end":2290.878,"text":"等到這個關稅或是最近過的話這個國際的碳足跡應該的要求會非常的熱烈第三個呢我們國內會強化這個綠色採購目前呢我們過去大概只有3%是屬於綠色採購未來呢我們希望2030年能夠成長到10%這個大概就是1600億台幣的採購這個是政府的採購未來呢這個其實也包括民間的主動的採購會結合在一起"},{"start":2302.845,"end":2315.439,"text":"第四個呢就是百育的綠色成長基金提供企業轉型到綠色產業的資金的一個協助第五個呢就擴大綠領人才的培訓量能我們過去呢其實公布的綠領人才48小時的課而且相對的是比較"},{"start":2319.383,"end":2341.719,"text":"經濟划算之後受到很大的關注一下就是秒殺我們目前跟28個大學分為北中南四個東四個區在進行協助預計我們會這個會再擴大還會提出一些增能的課程那第三個是推動產業轉型跟跨部會的協助平台我們會針對重點的高碳產業協助他們導入一些新的科技像碳補作電氣化作替代燃料"},{"start":2342.199,"end":2365.84,"text":"或是說跟國科會合作發展製程、低碳設備或數位轉型等等那另外我們本來就有跟經濟部、經管會、國科會就有一個平台我們會加速讓這個產業能夠前面的先走能夠帶動小的產業我們成立一個綠色產業轉型的聯合平台另外一個會跟經管會合作在綠色金融、綠色信貸跟債券方面能夠再強化"},{"start":2366.801,"end":2396.164,"text":"那另外一個最重要的第四個就是國際參與跟政策對接目前我們會積極找到跟我們相關的產業能夠進行氣候治理的對接包含政策的協調或是相互的認證的機制第二個我們還是會積極希望台灣要加入相關的國際組織提供我們政策的透明度跟國際的參與的信任度第三個就是希望結合我們的友邦擴大我國企業出口市場跟商機特別是綠色能源廢棄物處理等等"},{"start":2396.664,"end":2413.739,"text":"那另外一個呢跟各位大院報告其實這個是新的資料我們正式的版本應該會在6月會公佈不過目前我們算出來跟各個部會協調出來我們2023年的減量叫2005年的幅度是4.64%那之前呢各位可能看到的數據是2022年2022年是大概是1.8%"},{"start":2416.681,"end":2435.914,"text":"所以我們2023年已經有顯著的減碳有顯著的一個成效目前我們預測大概在2024 2025大概有5到6然後2025可能會到8到9左右那當然這個要看未來我們GDP的發展我們會努力的希望這個數字能夠更好一些但是這個我們的確是邁向這個減碳的一個幅度"},{"start":2438.075,"end":2458.95,"text":"最後呢我們跟大家報告2050淨零碳排還是國際上主要的推動目標雖然遇到這個關稅的挑戰但是呢其實目前全世界沒有一個國家有顯著的轉彎或是一個退縮那我國呢還是會積極的我們希望在今年年底COP30前在巴西舉辦之前我們提出我們的國家的NDC3.0"},{"start":2461.092,"end":2489.571,"text":"總統在1月23在國家氣候變遷對策委員會提出的是NDC3.0Beta版現在我們正跟進行跨部會的溝通還有社會的溝通工作希望社會能夠給我們更多的意見能夠讓轉型更能成功更為具體那另外一個是針對美國關稅的國際新局我們會持續的來研議能夠希望打造供應鏈讓經濟安全跟永續成長的雙重目標這是我第一份報告那請幫我切到第二份的報告那第二份報告"},{"start":2490.531,"end":2517.84,"text":"跟各位報告的是所謂的很多委員關心的國內的校園賣場工作場域的室內空氣污染針對室內空氣污染物的管理跟防治的進進作為目前其實我國的這個室內空氣品質的管理其實是全世界僅次於韓國第二個發布的是在這已經經歷了14年的一個時間那我們分為兩批第一批是103年公告的大型場所"},{"start":2518.26,"end":2546.301,"text":"第二批呢是106年公布的那110年呢我們又推動了這個自內空氣品質的自主的管理的標章目前呢第一批大概有436家的企業這包含了大專院校或是重要的公共的一個場所那第二批呢是增加了例如說博物館電影院視聽場所健身房等等的總共有1200家左右所以整個加起來大概是1600家是目前第一批跟第二批"},{"start":2546.721,"end":2575.742,"text":"要符合室內空品列管的一個單位那這個裡面呢就會有一些有意思的因為這個裡面呢有的是每一年要列管有的是兩年要列管那管理一次呢就要找專業的這個檢測機構去量那這個成本來說的話大概一次大概要兩三萬塊那另外一個呢是他的這個場域也要設定專責的人員所以其實他對於一些這種所謂的幼兒園等等的相對的我們就遭遇到他們反映了人力不足或是定檢成本高昂的一個問題"},{"start":2576.502,"end":2593.162,"text":"所以目前來說的話我們現在過去在推動了一個要自主管理的標章的一個推動針對大專院校幼兒園或商場他們主動來做不過也很誠實的跟各位報告他的比例相對的還是比較低那未來我們要怎麼做呢第一個我們還是要加強的一個宣導"},{"start":2593.743,"end":2615.107,"text":"我們會跟教育部衛福部積極的合作從源頭管制例如說它的使用的建築的材料要濾建材第二個換氣通風第三個室內可以透過空氣清淨機或是植物的方式來做淨化這個如果前途可以減量的好就可以管制會有更大的成效那針對那個要花費很多錢的部分其實有一個方法"},{"start":2615.447,"end":2633.672,"text":"就是利用連續自動的監測的儀器目前有些連續自動監測的這個品質不好所以這個未來有待於我們持續的跟產業界一起發展連續自動監測而且智慧化例如說配合通風像現在我們的這個我們這個場域大概是七百八九百多的pp"},{"start":2634.352,"end":2649.891,"text":"PPM如果待會進行到1000多的話可能這個通風會增強這個就是一個新的方式所以類似這樣的方式我們會逐步的增加對公共區域跟兒少的校園硬性跟柔性的一個管理我們希望源頭廣至跟原來的這個方式雙軌並行"},{"start":2651.272,"end":2668.427,"text":"那最重要的是要重視這個兒少因為兒少他的敏感族群他如果遇到一個影響影響會比我們成人大很多我們會積極的推廣自主的標章的管理那未來我們要怎麼做呢第一個我們目前在過去這幾個月我們也找了各界從環保團體"},{"start":2670.549,"end":2686.702,"text":"或是各界從許願池開始策略平台或是公民咖啡館已經擬定了空氣品質政策白皮書那預計希望我們在4月底可以趕快對外公布那這個事實上是為了我們環境部結合大家可以發展的方向"},{"start":2687.162,"end":2703.562,"text":"那這裡面有一個很重要的作為就是呼應我們未來第三期的空氣污染防治策略我們希望空氣品質可以降得更好那這裡面當然也包含了室內空氣品質的策略也在裡面那未來我們會積極盤點修正檢討的目前的空氣污染防治法"},{"start":2704.422,"end":2727.973,"text":"空污法的修法也在我們未來要擬定的策略之一包含了固定污染源、移動污染源等等相關的我們希望在下個會期如果我們有順利快的話希望下個會期能夠送到大院能夠來進行一個修正因為上次修正到現在為止已經有一段時間了我們希望配合我們台灣的發展能夠再進行修正空污法的修正以上所有報告 謝謝"},{"start":2735.416,"end":2758.511,"text":"好謝謝部長報告那有關本市會議各項說明資料進列錄記錄刊登公報現在開始尋答做一下宣告第一本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有順便質詢請於上月前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理歷史提案10點半截止"},{"start":2759.946,"end":2764.775,"text":"截止收案 現在請登記第一位委員是陳昭志從委員來做詢問的謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長"},{"start":2776.074,"end":2802.538,"text":"陳委員早部長剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告不過現在大概還相當完整不過還在很多還在研議階段那川普總統拋出的這個高額關稅雖然其實還有不定數還有變數但是因為大家都要嚴正以待因為我們也不知道台灣的這個籌碼跟我們談判能力到如何還要從所認定的那剛剛你自己也報告到就是說他宣布他等於再次宣布"},{"start":2802.978,"end":2819.8,"text":"他第一次擔任總統他就宣布要退出巴黎協定因為他對這個覺得不是那麼重要那這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定而且這個時間是一月就是他就職的時候所以我是認為在這個部分環境部應該要就提早就要有"},{"start":2820.741,"end":2834.568,"text":"這個準備當然關稅是後來的事情所以是這樣子就是說當然你剛剛也報告台灣推動這個淨零轉型的產業其實還是會有一些挑戰尤其特別是正在推動淨零轉型的這個關鍵出口的產業"},{"start":2836.229,"end":2863.945,"text":"那台灣企業本來他就要面對這個關稅這個碳費跟那個綠能轉型的這個內部成本那現在又要面對可能的這個出口美國是被課以這個額外的關稅他等於是一種雙重處罰的概念有一點double punishment的這個概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了"},{"start":2864.965,"end":2889.82,"text":"你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長式的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是"},{"start":2890.74,"end":2918.557,"text":"真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策"},{"start":2919.897,"end":2939.595,"text":"那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯"},{"start":2940.836,"end":2964.674,"text":"但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是你會如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用"},{"start":2966.055,"end":2977.973,"text":"但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎"},{"start":2979.165,"end":3005.98,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊源高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴陣以待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業"},{"start":3007.441,"end":3033.86,"text":"我再提醒你因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的"},{"start":3034.921,"end":3055.4,"text":"他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情"},{"start":3056.401,"end":3072.972,"text":"不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則"},{"start":3074.333,"end":3100.755,"text":"因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個"},{"start":3102.096,"end":3130.451,"text":"部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎 您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的智慧圍籬會做得更好"},{"start":3131.411,"end":3136.995,"text":"為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下"},{"start":3162.931,"end":3188.48,"text":"他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑幕就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片"},{"start":3201.039,"end":3226.465,"text":"部長我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片因為才12秒,他轉進來然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場"},{"start":3228.473,"end":3243.108,"text":"這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊"},{"start":3244.349,"end":3263.854,"text":"去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜式還是發生了報告委員這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內"},{"start":3266.055,"end":3294.714,"text":"現內無法這個完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來呢會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方現在合法的業者部長這個就是說其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分"},{"start":3295.194,"end":3299.259,"text":"他們互相勾結然後繞一圈就出場再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資場販賣連單繞場"},{"start":3314.376,"end":3334.037,"text":"偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理其中電子連單的措施及工作你是不是可以做到解決解除業者規避追蹤器偽造不實連單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題"},{"start":3335.739,"end":3359.153,"text":"這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談的差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公佈我們有一套做法因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有1000萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方"},{"start":3359.724,"end":3377.413,"text":"不只爛到他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你以後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊"},{"start":3379.313,"end":3401.362,"text":"這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3409.29,"end":3412.673,"text":"主席麻煩我們的環境部部長林委員好"},{"start":3431.847,"end":3459.484,"text":"部長我們今天還是要再來討論我們的兒少的環境部好像事實上是看不到兒少然後也聽不到學校的那個污染求救所以我們來看一下 部長延續我3月18的一個質詢我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題孩子應該不是成人的縮影縮小版"},{"start":3461.087,"end":3484.277,"text":"他們器官還在發育而且他們的呼吸的速度事實上是我們成人的兩倍而且活動量大然後體重又輕所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像的還嚴重多了這是世界衛生組織歐盟的研究都有提出來那空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期而且是不可逆的"},{"start":3484.775,"end":3512.601,"text":"部長想問你這事實上是上次我們就有一個基本公司對不對那既然認同的話我們就來看一個很大的問題就部長我上次質詢就提過室內空氣空瓶的空瓶法竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入我認為這不是個別疏忽而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略而燒為什麼這樣提而且公約在2014年已經國內"},{"start":3514.119,"end":3527.952,"text":"自行法通過之後再一年的時間要提出優先檢視清單三年內要修法五年內要完全符合公約那意味著什麼意味著2020年的話"},{"start":3531.334,"end":3553.18,"text":"應該是要完全符合可是當然你會講說環境部事實上2023年才成立可是話再說回來前面還有環保署所以就想到底環境部做了什麼有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規有沒有根據CRC這些提過任何的修法跟行政配套"},{"start":3554.687,"end":3571.4,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是我非常贊同委員對於這樣的看法目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員說的CRC那個方式我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中有一些學校在緊急應變的時候的處理的確有一些特別的法案的條例來出來"},{"start":3571.98,"end":3598.648,"text":"但是在整個這個就是屬於這種突發應變事故的時候的處理的確是有針對這個校園來做處理但是以整個空汙法裡面還沒有針對那我們也希望未來在修空汙法的時候能夠再特別再強化這一塊你知道這中間今天2017年 2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為"},{"start":3599.168,"end":3623.689,"text":"你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議啦除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款"},{"start":3624.898,"end":3654.658,"text":"因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好"},{"start":3655.058,"end":3680.655,"text":"就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個"},{"start":3681.764,"end":3705.161,"text":"連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的共識所以我們的鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整"},{"start":3706.803,"end":3726.945,"text":"是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機"},{"start":3728.366,"end":3752.082,"text":"還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央"},{"start":3754.203,"end":3770.428,"text":"預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正"},{"start":3770.928,"end":3791.648,"text":"好 這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹"},{"start":3792.23,"end":3821.913,"text":"可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道 讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個"},{"start":3822.877,"end":3849.476,"text":"污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染"},{"start":3850.177,"end":3860.534,"text":"請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部"},{"start":3861.36,"end":3887.556,"text":"我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動"},{"start":3888.689,"end":3915.907,"text":"在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中生他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年對你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情"},{"start":3916.369,"end":3938.134,"text":"最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為"},{"start":3940.114,"end":3963.914,"text":"最後就變成學生要往外移 弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪"},{"start":3964.966,"end":3987.982,"text":"所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要透過"},{"start":3988.967,"end":4016.21,"text":"報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施"},{"start":4016.69,"end":4045.375,"text":"因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為"},{"start":4046.135,"end":4075.097,"text":"外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃"},{"start":4076.783,"end":4094.941,"text":"好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強監測"},{"start":4096.882,"end":4122.88,"text":"稽查主動協助學校通報啊協助學校而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回"},{"start":4124.794,"end":4146.13,"text":"這個委員這個部分我們是有列管啦但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年"},{"start":4147.47,"end":4169.175,"text":"2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區"},{"start":4170.99,"end":4189.855,"text":"建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面 活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳清輝委員來做詢問"},{"start":4206.994,"end":4207.734,"text":"這邊是蠻多人關注的您最近對外的一些發言所以"},{"start":4229.807,"end":4255.59,"text":"今天我也趕快熟讀一下您的發言所以本席第一個想問的問題是說您在前幾天出席國家安全防衛任性委員會出來之後呢您認為說許多委員都有達到一樣的共識對於台灣如果應對能源封鎖的話針對國安的風險在考量國安應該要保留核能這是您說的嗎"},{"start":4256.514,"end":4277.174,"text":"包委員那個媒體報導有錯第一個這個全方位任性還沒有開我是說這個國家安全不是我們氣候變遷這個所阻擋的這個應該從那個委員會可以去做討論所以其實我當天說得很清楚我也跟我同仁確認過我是這樣講的嗎其實他裡面可能是他把一些刪掉了"},{"start":4277.574,"end":4288.603,"text":"因為這個文章中提到說現場有企業對您提問說台海若發生封鎖恐嚴重影響國安所以您表示說對進口天然氣的依賴確實涉及國安因此在討論相關議題的時候你說在你曾經參加過這樣子的委員會"},{"start":4298.832,"end":4324.786,"text":"沒有沒有不是這樣講的我是說其實各種的能源包含很多的國家在推動能源政策的時候其實核能他們也是國安的一個選項之一那這個部分呢我們可以未來也可以來討論這個事情那這個討論的平台不在我們氣候變遷對策委員會是在這個全方位任性從國家安全的角度因為我們不是國家安全的單位啊所以我們其實那天我昨天是昨天我昨天他問我我這樣打的但是我很遺憾媒體是這樣寫的"},{"start":4325.626,"end":4353.841,"text":"所以您是以什麼身份來聊這些您認為這個議題會在國安當中討論他們請我去做Keynote Speaker我沒有做國安的討論我是說其實在國際上的確有這樣的討論但是其實是有些國家的案例台灣還並沒有這樣的討論那您認為那您會認為因為你是環境部嘛所以您認為核能是否會對台灣的淨零碳排等等我們需要達到的這些國際任務會有幫助呢"},{"start":4354.481,"end":4377.397,"text":"如果說低碳能源的話當然是有幫助不過報告委員因為當時我們訂這個減碳目標的時候核能我也看到裡面那這問題是說要法定通過還要這個安全檢查然後還有地層斷層的這個處理然後甚至呢最後還有經費核廢料等等其實這個算起來費用很高也要花很久的時間所以其實最後淨離的目標就沒有辦法"},{"start":4377.657,"end":4395.571,"text":"您專業環境部長的意見您是認為核能的確是對淨零碳排有幫助但是背後還有很多事情需要處理剛剛您的意思是這樣子對 要很多錢還要花很多的時間不是說明天就可以繼續用了所以這個基本上這個是我們沒有辦法掌控的所以那時候我們推淨零的時候沒有把它放進去"},{"start":4395.811,"end":4419.176,"text":"好那再來呢因為您當天除了稍微聊到國安以外您說呢這個中央沒有非核家園的信仰也沒有也不是所謂行政團隊的神主牌所以你們說這個政府的態度是很開放的請問您講的這個中央代表的是什麼中央因為現在中央政府的中央"},{"start":4419.896,"end":4439.884,"text":"跟民進黨黨主席的中央是同一個中央您這個提到的這個是指我們行政團隊因為委員在大院的時候包含卓院長或是總統在氣候變遷對策委員會也曾經多說過非二加元不是神主牌之類的話所以其實我是就是引述而已並沒有說這個是我們政策上有很大的轉彎並沒有轉彎"},{"start":4441.144,"end":4454.671,"text":"但因為我們現在總統同時也是民進黨的黨主席嘛所以你的意思是說行政團隊的這個中央團隊認為非核家園已經不再是神主牌所以代表說你們也有可能會轉彎沒有就是說我們很開放的來討論這個事情開放的來討論對對對"},{"start":4459.454,"end":4468.341,"text":"那另外您在這個訪談您是當Keynote Speaker嘛所以您也有提到說SMR的這個問題所以因為我們現在剛好面臨國人非常關心的90天關稅談判而賴總統也有提到說能源是我們談判的籌碼之一請問這個SMR是不是你們內部也開始有在討論是不是關稅談判的籌碼之一呢"},{"start":4484.893,"end":4501.655,"text":"包括因為能源或是核能或是核廢料真的不是我們環境部主管的單位可能是經濟部但是您聊蠻多的但是因為我們是關心淨零所以我們的確是很認真的去做瞭解那以現在全世界SMR目前最快最快可以商轉可能是2030年"},{"start":4503.497,"end":4526.055,"text":"這個我的意思是說在談判的籌碼能源SMR列入談判的籌碼跟它什麼時候開始相轉我想這是兩回事吧那既然您參加的這些委員會可能也同時都涵蓋有經濟部的部長也涵蓋有和安會等等你們全部都會一起參加這些會議嘛所以我也想知道說大家是不是都跟您有一樣的想法因為您對於SMR也蠻多看法的"},{"start":4529.017,"end":4554.922,"text":"的確它的確是一個新的這個新的技術但是也跟委員報告他蠻貴的這個其實目前最新的一個美國的new scale的2030年完工的大概一個機組462M大概就要花到105億美元這個其實很貴還不如蓋一個新的所以基本上不管是SMR或是一種核能的重啟或研議其實第一個他費用第二個是說他跟社會的溝通的成本還有各種核廢料其實都"},{"start":4555.662,"end":4572.643,"text":"說真的還蠻困難的可是因為全民都蠻關切這個90天的貿易關稅談判嘛所以既然能源一定會是談判其中的一個選項之一所以大家也就會想要知道說SMR是不是就籌碼之一嘛目前我自己我沒有參與那個討論這個SMR的會議"},{"start":4575.126,"end":4595.781,"text":"我想因為目前全世界還沒有SMR開始商轉所以應該不會列入這樣那因為剛剛你有提到說這些核能相關的議題其實還需要很多的社會凝聚共識也要非常多的溝通所以既然能源是其中一個談判籌碼之一的話我也希望您知道談判之後呢也可以盡快的展開這些溝通好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":4598.563,"end":4624.989,"text":"對 因為聽起來的話我們也很擔心這個SMR它列入溝通那它也會對我們國家的能源政策造成一個蠻重大的衝擊嘛好 謝謝好 那下一個想問一下這個是我們今年1月底太陽能光電環屏終於納入環屏的標準那這些內容就包括以下我劃線的這也是您認同的嘛濕地 山坡地 動物保護區等等潮間帶你覺得這樣子夠嗎"},{"start":4628.223,"end":4648.542,"text":"有沒有遺漏的報告委員其實環評有兩個目的世界主管機關一個是例如說經濟部像能源署就是主管機關之一他們有他們的生態檢核的機制那我們是超過一定的量大就要送到我們這邊環評所以基本上目前是我們有參考其他國家和日本的進行方式那這是我去年執行的內容我們也稍微播放一下"},{"start":4651.021,"end":4665.987,"text":"因為你剛提到量我們等一下也會來討論量放在屋頂上可以費率比較高嘛所以就很多人其實他覺得餘溫結果他故意去架了一個屋頂然後再放到屋頂上這個我想你們都已經知道了啦好計算起來呢這些"},{"start":4666.627,"end":4692.167,"text":"不需要做環射檢核的屋頂加起來已經1117公頃好我們來對比之前你說需要環評有一個高爾夫球場曾經接受過很嚴重的環評很詳細的環評才52公頃結果剛剛大家都說這個屋頂上有多好我們獎勵他們結果1117公頃現在都沒有人在管他們這個是很違背一般人民的認知現在許多人是假養殖在增重店"},{"start":4694.881,"end":4697.403,"text":"好 剛剛你有講到量嘛很明顯的這些屋頂上的量是很大的喔全部統計起來是非常大的那這邊呢 是許多多人民也有跟我們反映啦等一下我會給你看一個陳情我們先看 你在規定"},{"start":4718.099,"end":4739.196,"text":"風力發電你在規定水力發電你在規定核能潮汐地熱後面從來就沒有一個單書沒有這種括號的東西出現可是呢針對這個其實國人是最在意的許許多多弊案而且利益牽扯最複雜的光點你後面有這一大段的括號單書寫不含設置於屋頂上或屬其他開發行為附屬"},{"start":4744.54,"end":4766.553,"text":"等等事業主管機關確認者就是你剛提到的經濟部為什麼為什麼第一個是屋頂上本來就是沒有限制甚至說餘溫上面這個餘電共生那個就是不用去做特別的環評那個是目的事業主管機關他經過這個生態檢核過後其實他有他的標準那目前是不用經過環評"},{"start":4767.774,"end":4782.985,"text":"好但這個也是我們許多啦許多人 那人民啊他們已經不堪其擾這個社區進去到處就是光電板像狗皮膏藥一樣好在這邊第六點你看我曾經質詢過蘇清璇召委也帶著環境部一起去看現在屏東是什麼樣子"},{"start":4789.069,"end":4814.526,"text":"那當然你剛剛說屬於經濟部的核可就不用環評結果呢我們都發現他們是砍樹來放光電板那你還把這些大家最在意的你知道很多餘溫因為放了光電板已經變成一灘臭水變成這樣子這些也是你走訪中南部所看到的也是我們中南部現在鄉親很在意的啊"},{"start":4815.952,"end":4820.569,"text":"結果你在修改的時候還特別列了一個其他能源政策都沒有的單數"},{"start":4822.096,"end":4848.05,"text":"包委員 這個其實是第一個是造林一個是平地 一個是山坡地例如說像蘇委員說的就是山坡地它是15公頃以上或是20M就要還平所以基本上有一定的單數因為那個是很早期弄的的確那時候沒有任何的限制那現在是有了 而且加嚴了好 那這邊我們看因為你第一片這個slide你就說提到量你覺得這個光電板的量但是你看這邊"},{"start":4849.511,"end":4855.577,"text":"你既然他已經是但書了以外然後他卻是近幾年來越來越多從108年到112年屋頂上比地面型還要多超過現在併網的一半結果你變相還加一個但書你覺得113年 114年 115年你會怎麼預期他屋頂型會不會越來越多"},{"start":4870.402,"end":4895.622,"text":"屋頂型基本上是應該是被鼓勵的因為它不是說從現有的農地或是說各種的新開發的林地去做改變屋頂型是基本上是被鼓勵的而且我們的獎勵處置裡面被鼓勵但是也需要受到環境部的規範嗎基本上目前是不用做因為屋頂型的這個量其實它不會太大而且是個別個別小的剛剛已經跟你說它是併網一半好這邊啊"},{"start":4897.082,"end":4917.399,"text":"你們在做這個預告的時候其實你們有附上一個email你有提到說60日內請提供建議等等那為什麼我會詢問你這件事就是因為我們有收到一位中南部阿貝的陳情他的意思是說他已經受不了了他走進他的社區到處就是而且還蓋在水溝上根本沒有什麼環境部的管制嘛"},{"start":4917.879,"end":4939.245,"text":"那這是去年8月他把這整封信貼給我們他講到說很多屋頂上的光點他反映給你們知道是假屋頂型只是因為設置的條件比較寬鬆所以故意蓋一個屋頂就明明他那邊其實不需要屋頂他為了做屋頂型又去硬扯一個鐵皮屋蓋了一個屋頂那反而很妨害下面的生態"},{"start":4940.145,"end":4961.95,"text":"但因為他是不需要你們的檢核而且費率還比地面型還要高所以就變成一個變相的發財之道難怪申請量暴增結果你們公告的草案竟然直接去免去屋頂型的環評成為大漏洞所以請將以上的建議納入並且考慮修正結果你知道嗎這封信已讀不回"},{"start":4962.95,"end":4976.696,"text":"所以我也搞不太清楚你們叫大家寄信到你們這個可能是林彥祺的信箱然後說要參考大家的修正意見那已讀不回所以你們到底有沒有納入"},{"start":4977.444,"end":5001.469,"text":"包委員這個我們會再跟能源署再來做協調因為這個部分屋頂型的光電是主要是他們有他們的一個機制生態檢核的機制然後是由這個能源署在主管的所以我們會再來瞭解好不好這個案例這個幾個案例這是未來的政策請問你們在這段時間是不是也陸續收到許多意見有沒有你們有回覆嗎還是全部都沒有回覆"},{"start":5001.929,"end":5020.992,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛您提到的那個就是公開徵詢意見是在我們預告期間收集的各界意見那我們收集的意見以後其實也有開公聽演商會然後也會跟各個相關的行政機關做研究所以也不是說所有收到陳情的意見我們都會在最後修法定案的時候去採納因為這可能要綜合很多的意見"},{"start":5022.073,"end":5043.73,"text":"你們不一定要採納但是你們可能也要回覆一下人家是好本來阿貝是希望你們可以他希望帶你們去看他的社區或是拍一些照片給你們但就全部沒有回覆結果最後就直接上路了是這個我們在會後我們再了解一下因為有很多意見其實我們有最後有做一個回應的表然後可能在這一個"},{"start":5044.851,"end":5054.434,"text":"這個案例我們去了解一下那個陳情仁的意見我們是不是有收到好那之後再跟你們繼續追蹤這個屋頂型的好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長來請部長"},{"start":5076.084,"end":5088.941,"text":"王委員好部長好部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施環評的這個29條"},{"start":5092.104,"end":5096.848,"text":"來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些呢都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是"},{"start":5116.471,"end":5135.632,"text":"像小二甲這樣子化整圍嶺的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的"},{"start":5136.215,"end":5158.272,"text":"所以小二甲的情況不會再出現 不會不會原地的都可以被管制 國保委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展所以表示說這個是有效的那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈"},{"start":5161.474,"end":5169.759,"text":"就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風林20餘年因為要毀林種電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈"},{"start":5176.365,"end":5193.99,"text":"那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的"},{"start":5194.79,"end":5212.027,"text":"因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈"},{"start":5217.472,"end":5235.909,"text":"包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商啊那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法"},{"start":5236.75,"end":5254.576,"text":"本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案"},{"start":5257.057,"end":5275.208,"text":"而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎"},{"start":5287.613,"end":5294.658,"text":"對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些"},{"start":5312.011,"end":5335.195,"text":"你要種個一二十年他對整個環境他所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這一些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這一次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生"},{"start":5339.076,"end":5347.873,"text":"我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場"},{"start":5351.823,"end":5372.959,"text":"到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎"},{"start":5374.974,"end":5390.142,"text":"這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們有辦法做的"},{"start":5390.302,"end":5393.544,"text":"但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要"},{"start":5406.994,"end":5421.388,"text":"你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面"},{"start":5423.55,"end":5444.703,"text":"看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺啦就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋"},{"start":5447.304,"end":5473.338,"text":"好 包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制"},{"start":5473.738,"end":5490.917,"text":"所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中"},{"start":5491.437,"end":5518.151,"text":"好 那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席 包括委員通通都沒有發現或者去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討 好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子 這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧"},{"start":5519.54,"end":5523.924,"text":"我去過台東 但是不知道那個地方有那麼多風險台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":5542.361,"end":5571.674,"text":"在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上"},{"start":5572.134,"end":5589.737,"text":"所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法"},{"start":5590.297,"end":5618.417,"text":"並沒有像這個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待"},{"start":5619.978,"end":5643.075,"text":"那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空瓶的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500"},{"start":5646.698,"end":5668.19,"text":"就是在補助這些學校今天是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這一個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這一個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主"},{"start":5668.61,"end":5688.5,"text":"的管理標章 這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵錢也給得太少了 現在物價通膨 3500是可以做什麼 3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來 就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分 你們有一個"},{"start":5698.76,"end":5716.794,"text":"這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學"},{"start":5717.475,"end":5743.057,"text":"就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以"},{"start":5747.093,"end":5769.409,"text":"公務員報告 那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論"},{"start":5770.49,"end":5789.933,"text":"那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下"},{"start":5790.353,"end":5805.887,"text":"好啊 因為隨著物價水準 你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少 所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦 這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高 好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請盧信義委員來做宣討"},{"start":5820.767,"end":5826.992,"text":"就針對美國關稅的問題,先提出幾個問題請問部長,你知道川普為什麼要退出巴黎氣候協定嗎?"},{"start":5839.591,"end":5854.769,"text":"因為美國在共和黨跟民主黨他們對於這個氣候變遷的看法一直都是不大一樣的那他大概是從美國共和黨傳統的這種所謂的化石燃料派不相信氣候變遷這樣延伸出來的"},{"start":5855.233,"end":5872.468,"text":"那我大概翻了一下資料大概川普的想法就是說可能就即便是你已經投入了這麼多金額他的預期效益沒有達到那也就是說剛剛我們看這個圖表就是說拜登政府他投入了大概1.6兆"},{"start":5875.131,"end":5895.471,"text":"結果呢他的那個目標只有下降0.2%那也就是說當然就川普來講他上任以後他在2017年就提過一次現在再度上任的時候他當然就還要發揮他以前的想法就是說他即便美國付出這麼多對氣候的貢獻其實沒有他們想像中那麼好那就回頭來看我們"},{"start":5896.212,"end":5918.74,"text":"我們的NDC就是說自定貢獻每5年要更換就是說更新那我想知道說2035年我們燃煤大概9%那我們的Gas的燃氣要54%這個部分你的看法是怎麼樣你覺得可以達到嗎這個是目前這個是由能源經濟部門能源署在做規劃的那我們當然對他們是有信心"},{"start":5919.653,"end":5934.483,"text":"OK那我想知道說我們現在的所謂的carbon border也就是說我們的碳邊境這邊這邊你是說大概我們116年2月這個部分會開始做然後我們的台版會出來那我們台版是什麼時候會出現"},{"start":5934.963,"end":5951.856,"text":"我們希望是未來這幾個月因為主要是針對重點的產業那這個也要跟經濟部一起合作那50噸的這個後面的這個這個量是怎麼定出來的這個就是第一個我們要觀察這個歐盟他大概是夏天的時候七八月的時候他應該會把它細節出來"},{"start":5953.217,"end":5970.968,"text":"那你希望能夠擴大他的豁免門檻那你希望到什麼樣的程度基本上至少要讓我們本地的鋼鐵業或是水泥不要受到這個從其他地方進來沒有碳碳碎的碳廢的一個國家的一個衝擊等於說我們必須要公平正義"},{"start":5971.428,"end":5985.217,"text":"這些事情都是比較專業比較新所以我希望在多方面的一些教育上面都可以呈現出來那我剛剛有看到這個報告裡面在第十頁的部分說我們結合大專院校要開放精靈的課程"},{"start":5987.598,"end":6007.996,"text":"那預計可以培養大概3500人次以上那我當然就原住民的立場來說我希望在按照人口比例我們這個至少要有70到100人受到訓練所以這個部分有做規劃嗎好 這個部分我們有跟原住民委員會來談他們也表達高度的意願細節我們是不是主任"},{"start":6008.897,"end":6027.909,"text":"我們已經跟原民會討論過兩次包括這個禮拜一原民會都表達強烈的意願他們會推派一些原住民的代表來參加我們課程我希望這個訓練人才裡面會有至少70名原住民的學生或者是說所謂的這個領域裡面來受到訓練"},{"start":6031.151,"end":6046.268,"text":"我們是希望未來可以有一個原住民的專班啦特別針對原住民的事業特別來做一些訓練這個還要原民會的同意這是美國加徵關稅公總有六項建議大概我來念一下第一項就是說"},{"start":6047.009,"end":6062.457,"text":"申請簡化 變名這些 放寬紓困第二個就是我們產業各類別來做政策第三個就是對美的採購團工種能夠協助擴大對美的採購 降低台美貿易逆差這些 以後有六項建議 你看過了嗎"},{"start":6065.147,"end":6086.063,"text":"我收到了 碳費他們希望能夠延到2027我有收到這個訊息是嗎對OK那剛才我們的幾個委員有提到我們現在台東的那個東海岸的所謂的我們的風力發電那剛才王議員說現在五十幾座 其實不是是27公里裡面它要建33個風力發電那其實"},{"start":6089.486,"end":6107.543,"text":"如果你去過那裡你會發現其實它的陸地其實是非常少的大部分就是海然後陸地一點點然後就開始就是我們居民生活的地方所以其實如果就它風力發電那個基座可能距離不有可能只有不到500公尺的距離所以我在想這個部分以後"},{"start":6108.143,"end":6135.7,"text":"部長 你在做看到環境影響評估的時候其實就對這個部分應該要很大的一個去肯定說它對我們原住民的傳統領域這個部分是不是有很多方面的影響因為我們都希望說有山影嘛中央跟地方影嘛然後我們地區的民眾影可是如果說它的負面確實是高於它未來這個山影的局面的時候你的考量其實是應該是很重要的所以我希望聽到你對這方面的一些見解"},{"start":6136.548,"end":6161.583,"text":"OK好謝謝委員因為風機在2009年開始有一個環皮的限制是250公尺半徑然後後來到2023年大概到500公尺可是之前現在的影響例如說在彰化雲林有一些居民的抱怨都是當時很早時候沒有相關法令定下來的的確產生很大的問題那目前呢也跟委員報告為什麼我要主動說因為其實有最近有很多的這種離岸風"},{"start":6163.004,"end":6180.435,"text":"綠蜂店他來我們部內申請環評其實委員都給他們高度的這個審核的一個標準特別是說提醒他們注意不大能夠過啦所以我就提醒他們如果要來申請那就要更加嚴更做更多的溝通才有辦法過那500公尺是一個基本的門檻"},{"start":6181.255,"end":6205.351,"text":"是所以就其實就以後要設置之前我希望你能夠過去看一下甚至參加泰馬里或者是大武達人這方面的一些部落一些所謂的溝通的一個會議或者說至少是縣政府曾經所辦的這些我希望能夠主動參加不過委員因為他是屬於他準備要籌劃要蓋他連報告都還沒送到我們那邊所以我們也不知道好那我只是"},{"start":6205.891,"end":6235.399,"text":"因為我在這邊要轉達我們在地部落的一些聲音然後剛才有提到我們獅子國中所謂的瀝青廠距離獅子國中只有500公尺不到的一個距離那剛才聽到王一鳴委員講到說有一個什麼什麼新風專案就是可以有排氣的這些系統希望這個工廠可能不太可能說離開這個學校那是不是就學校的一個設置或者是說它一個排湊的這個通風系統能不能也加進來不是只有獨厚我們竹水溪縣的"},{"start":6237,"end":6253.009,"text":"其實我們這個要源頭管理所以他現在我們所掌握的是他的製程裡面的確是讓這個臭氣排出來所以我們希望說因為他但是他一個月只有工作兩天所以我們要等到那個天知道他然後教育他來做改變這個只要他解決後面的問題就解決了"},{"start":6253.049,"end":6274.849,"text":"所以常常有環保單位去監測的時候就測不到就像我之前提到的那個法灣就是距離那個畜牧產業非常近其實我上個上個禮拜有去馬家鄉再做一次鄉鎮座談他們又再次提到我們法灣也就是我們排灣族發源地的這個村莊呢他距離那個養雞養豬場實在是太近了可是我們一"},{"start":6275.089,"end":6301.512,"text":"一而再再而上的去講這個事情可是只要是環保單位去查其實就查不到任何意味可是生活在那邊的人每天晚上或者是來固定時間就會產生這樣子的一個問題然後或者是看到一大片的就是蒼蠅圍在他們的餐桌所以這個部分我是覺得部長你雖然去過了可是我是覺得還是要有個時間表至少讓民眾知道說環境部有在努力政府有在努力讓居民生活能夠安心可以嗎"},{"start":6301.852,"end":6325.768,"text":"好可以這報委員上次看到那個養豬場其實我們也給他們很大的道德勸說你一定要做不做的話我們會加鹽查核所以我們認為是要源頭要管理是最重要的如果源頭專理做得好這個問題就不見了我還是希望環境部有時間表謝謝好謝謝好謝謝陸委員謝謝部長那我們會在這邊做報告我們等"},{"start":6328.264,"end":6341.42,"text":"這個邱正軍委員宣導結束後休息十分鐘好請就緣主席好我們一樣請彭部長"},{"start":6347.688,"end":6367.053,"text":"還是剛剛我看幾個委員都有提到就是陸域風電的問題陸域風電跟光電一樣一直都有很多爭議但是我們民進黨為了邁向2025非核家園的願景大量發展我們光電跟風電現在為了推動2050年達到近年排放的目標"},{"start":6372.082,"end":6380.643,"text":"光電和風電又要增加但是這反而讓台灣的環境永續跟人民的生活品質失衡我們先看一下那個影片"},{"start":6384.682,"end":6413.119,"text":"將那個拜拜那個箱啊插下去才看到快死掉了我都好暈喔我都站不穩喔跟醫生講醫生有沒有說什麼醫生說沒辦法那個政府要那個你有什麼辦法這樣他跟我這樣講我說醫生你看要怎麼辦你可以證明給我嗎他說那那個政府要這個你有辦法嗎這樣他就這樣講我也不清楚因為醫生也沒辦法對醫生說那個政府要那個你"},{"start":6413.979,"end":6414.441,"text":"有辦法嗎 你會贏他嗎"},{"start":6418.713,"end":6443.735,"text":"看到這影片我們的住戶我感覺到他非常的無助那這是彰化方院的居民他就住在風機的附近他說風機帶來的眩影讓他每天都在暈去看醫生也看不好他問醫生怎麼辦剛剛我看到大家看到影片了但是部長他的家就在那邊你要他們怎麼辦我看到這個影片真的覺得蠻不忍的部長的感覺呢"},{"start":6444.82,"end":6471.14,"text":"這的確這個眩影或是低頻的噪音或是那個風切聲的確是讓居民是很不舒服但是委員這個影片我有看過我週末的時候也特別去查其實那個大概就是2009、2010那時候我們國家大概是2000年有一次大波的陸域風險的開發接下來是2009年其實現在的問題就是那時候沒有完整的像現在500公尺的環評所累積下來的那目前的確這個是一個問題"},{"start":6472.461,"end":6499.344,"text":"所以我們為什麼說我前一陣子會主動的說如果要入獄風機的話因為台灣地小人稠所以真的要蓋的話要請開發單位要三思一定要做好處理才可以蓋我知道這是從2000年左右就開始推動那當然後來我們這個在106年我們風力發電四年的計畫裡面政策依舊是非常明確就是邁向2025的非核家園的願景"},{"start":6500.345,"end":6521.974,"text":"那這就是我們民進黨的神主牌之一嘛那麼快速增加風機的政策是從這個時候開始的那其實民進黨政府要做什麼法律就會配合修什麼你們要推風電光電基本上就算看到問題聽到居民這個抗議我想請問部長你還會照這個意思去做嗎"},{"start":6523.194,"end":6545.167,"text":"報告委員這個第一個是風電有分離岸風電跟陸域風機那我們針對是陸域陸域其實對所以部長很支持嗎你是陸域風機如果他要蓋的話是要500公尺以上等於是直徑要一公里所以基本上在台灣要找到這樣的土地是不容易的那最好是多到離岸區會比較好那所以如果他還是要做我們政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":6545.487,"end":6573.604,"text":"基本上他現在有非常多有幾起的這種所謂陸域風機的環評都要送到環境部其實他要通過的機會是非常辛苦的對我們看到那個鴻威風場剛剛被環評這個否決掉那居民都很高興那但是我現在看到彰化還有8座的風場正在開發數量好像還有90多隻還有我們那個東部也是一樣總共有58座大風機"},{"start":6575.086,"end":6589.258,"text":"我們都知道其實大家有去過我們花東地區應該可以看到我們的海岸線是非常漂亮的也是我們台灣的一個非常美的一個美景那麼如果這個地方如果都插滿風景您覺得部長您看得下去嗎"},{"start":6590.03,"end":6613.355,"text":"基本上他雖然可能有些風機可能是超過500公尺距離這個建築物可是其實他對景觀的影響是非常的大的所以我才會特別說這一定要請開發單位我真的是個人是不支持也不鼓勵我看經濟部是不鼓勵也是不鼓勵那台灣的可是台電的網站還是在說要持續發展"},{"start":6615.735,"end":6630.406,"text":"那我看我也看到部長在媒體上講您是不支持的那我在想一個問題就是說我們能不能把這個東西就立法寫得更嚴謹一點讓這些事情就不會再發生嗎這個立法有沒有準備讓這個陸域風場走入歷史"},{"start":6640.285,"end":6666.241,"text":"這個應該是能源主管機關這個經濟部能源署的工作這不是我們環評的工作我覺得是可以大家來討論這個問題如果這個東西確實我記得其實只要每一次地方上有設這種陸域的風場的時候地方上的反彈都是非常大的那既然是這樣全台灣我想不管設在哪裡大家都會反對那如果是這樣是不是我們在這個規定上面是不是來做重研的一個審查"},{"start":6667.012,"end":6690.188,"text":"包永其實這個因為我自己也到歐洲很多地方去看過他們的陸域風機不過人家的特性就是非常大我們台灣跟人家不能比啊而且他們歐洲人有一個講說聽到咻咻的聲音代表錢一直進來所以他們是歡迎的所以基本上台灣如果要要推動陸域風機的話其實整個重新的大家認知跟我剛剛聽到那個咻咻咻的聲音錢就進來是進到誰的口袋"},{"start":6694.58,"end":6706.416,"text":"進到居民可以分啊所以這基本上還是我們綠能的口袋這個一定要跟這個民眾例如說像那次公民電廠那樣的概念這樣發展會比較妥當以前是250公尺嘛以前是200現在是要500嘛對不對"},{"start":6709.64,"end":6737.871,"text":"可是我看11月的時候那個方院鄉代表會就通過了決議他們規定是離建築物1000公尺就1公里那也就是半徑這樣整圈就是2公里你覺得這樣可行嗎可以這樣調整嗎這個是屬於地方的權責他們希望有到的規模我們也都尊重但是目前我們的規範是500但是500其實在台灣已經相對非常困難了因為這樣子如果我們沒有訂一個好的標準就會造成這個企業"},{"start":6739.071,"end":6765.361,"text":"跟我們的政府在做還有居民在做對抗嘛那對地方來講也是不好的啊OK好委員這個部分我們其實這個是我們環境部在環評規範可以來進行的所以我們也可以來考慮我希望大家是統統一的標準啊不要讓地方去扛讓那個造成這個地方那麼多的這個雜音跟那個這個這個鬥爭嘛好不好好謝謝還有現在我們看到那個碳費"},{"start":6766.909,"end":6782.997,"text":"所以我們現在川普老大常常轉個身說法就不一樣了那他現在退出巴黎氣候協定目前看起來其他各國是沒有要跟進的那對我們的影響好像不大"},{"start":6783.977,"end":6805.629,"text":"你在3月初的時候還認為說歐盟在這個CBAN上面可能會往後實施一年嘛那會延到2027年他們的新草案也還在調整但你的報告是說我們歐盟的CBAN會如期舉行而且會擴大後面門檻跟簡化流程這個對我們出口的鋼鐵"},{"start":6807.69,"end":6826.155,"text":"相關下游產品是會有影響的那現在面對的是不確定的關稅跟加收的碳費是要撥兩成比啦我看到英國本來就是在2027年才要開始實施如果接下來歐盟是因為關稅或其他因素延後上路的話或者是有更多後面 我們會跟進嘛"},{"start":6827.715,"end":6847.049,"text":"我們會密切注意國際的這個情勢啦但是也跟委員說得很清楚就是國際上並沒有一個國家因此因為關稅的問題來大轉彎那歐盟目前其實他過去一開始要法案宣布之後我們看到很多的訊息是會以後一年但是目前來看的話歐盟並沒有往後延只是2027年2月才要交"},{"start":6847.509,"end":6872.419,"text":"可以開始購買這個這個碳的憑證所以目前來看的話我們目前當然啦不排除有一些國家進行大規模氣候變遷的這個政策的調整我們會滾動式的因為產業會擔心啦就是成本增加嘛 毛利減少那可能很多企業會面臨這個是不是可以經營下去的問題那2008年金融海嘯那一年我想影響最大的時間也是在一年以後"},{"start":6873.479,"end":6897.984,"text":"那我想川普現在這個對等關稅已經很多行業被影響了那我們也在預測可能就在明年的話可能也會有很多的這個廠商受到影響那我希望政府啊能夠幫我們企業去想一個出路因為我們目的不是要收碳費嘛如果我們企業關了我們什麼錢都收不到那個也不是我們要的我希望環境部這邊能夠"},{"start":6899.384,"end":6926.418,"text":"再擬定或者是多一些配套或者一些優惠措施來因應這一對這個關稅的問題引起的這些問題裡面能夠做一些調整這樣好嗎好可以委員其實我們是要幫企業順利的雙軸轉型成功這是我們要的目的啦收攤費的意義也在這邊好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長六位想要委員訓導結束之後我們就休息十分鐘謝謝"},{"start":6935.363,"end":6937.746,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們彭部長六人好 部長好我想今天應該大家都很關心喔這個川普總統上台之後他再次表明退出這個巴黎氣候協定那也根據"},{"start":6952.519,"end":6964.816,"text":"國際能源總署的評估美國退出協定可能導致全球減碳的努力損失將近20%以上的動能那這個決定當然對我們全球的氣候治理影響非常大"},{"start":6965.834,"end":6985.749,"text":"那麼再加上現在美國關稅的政策轉彎讓我們出口產業的這個淨零轉型會造成大的壓力那台灣企業也面臨著關稅壁壘跟這個碳邊境調整機制的雙重挑戰剛剛講過但是我們也有看到有看到一個是40%的出口企業表示可能會放緩這個"},{"start":6987.53,"end":7009.59,"text":"碳減排的投資那根據你的報告也有寫到美國政策造成了全球綠能投資這個投資的信心或減碳的企圖受挫是可以預見的那畢竟對於整個企業來說投入這個減碳是提高很多的成本再加上現在的關稅那可能直接導致所謂的企業獲利下降甚至虧損倒閉的問題我也接續著剛剛我們求證局委員在問這兩難的困境"},{"start":7015.086,"end":7033.037,"text":"初步你也有在你的受訪裡面有講到可能初步全國的碳費規模就會破300億左右50到60億然後後面會再增加那再來就是關稅的部分也根據經濟部的推廣的影響也非常的高那我想要請問一下部長目前面對現在的這個"},{"start":7034.747,"end":7060.074,"text":"整體的不管是關稅的衝擊等等的對於企業美國的這個政策轉變我們政府有沒有更詳盡的量化分析評估它對於這個國內產業淨零轉型的具體衝擊是多少好 幫國委員其實第一個是要知道它的關稅最後是版本是什麼因為其實每天都在變所以其實我們是滾動式的在調整你沒有照這個層次去做一個比較細緻的分析嗎比如說講到10% 20%或32%"},{"start":7064.015,"end":7089.436,"text":"還沒有到那麼細緻因為畢竟關稅他的這個代表的意義跟他的量體比這個碳大很多所以我們基本上是看完之後也看這個相關產業的發展然後最後決定說像這樣的結論就是我們預估可能的一個情境但是實際上有多少信心數減少多少投資多少這個還要在一段時間才能估算的出來那你們可以依照現在因為你至少就10%的現在就是10%嘛那未來"},{"start":7092.498,"end":7119.218,"text":"可能還會再提高那對於這樣子有沒有一個比較比較細緻的量化的分析因為目前這個我們的電子業的影響雖然是有但是沒有想像中來的這麼的高那台灣的主要的碳費很大的來源現在是半導體業的影響那當然了石化產業或鋼鐵業過去幾年經營的比較辛苦所以其實我們現在對於那種需要幫忙的部分我們也會爭取的經費跟經濟部一起來合作協助產業轉型"},{"start":7120.299,"end":7148.476,"text":"好謝謝這就是接下來要問的因為你也看到你說具體的減碳目標是不會改變的那我想要問在這樣的情況之下你們會不會針對尤其是我們中部有這些重災區有很多的中小企業像你說鋼鐵或甚至一些機械業等等的有沒有可能採取這個降低減碳目標或者是針對特定的或者是暫緩收取碳費的方式來協助這些企業來達到這個轉型的可行的措施"},{"start":7149.156,"end":7172.107,"text":"那你也有提到一些專案補助的輔導那具體的內容是什麼因為這個都會影響到如何協助企業在這麼複雜的國際環境中可以堅定的推進淨零轉型好 謝謝委員因為整個中南部有很多的扣建業者特別是螺絲的業者他們疏歐他們都很擔心不過跟委員報告其實因為目前的扣建業者只有一家要收碳費"},{"start":7172.987,"end":7197.515,"text":"大概他大概交的話大概只要交18萬如果按照他什麼都不做檢探18萬就好了所以其實影響是很小的那第二個呢他對蘇歐可能會有影響可是目前的CBAN他的目前的草案是50噸以上才要再收所以50噸的對多數的企業特別是中小企業蘇歐其實沒有那麼高所以請中小企業其實可以放心那目前的我們會加強跟歐盟的聯繫如果"},{"start":7197.915,"end":7207.696,"text":"因為目前的擴建業者基本上大多只有一家要收而已其他多數都不用收碳費所以目前我們會積極的來保障他們在歐盟的協商的部分能夠銜接得上"},{"start":7208.274,"end":7231.289,"text":"那針對去美國的這些出口的企業呢目前美國出口的跟碳是比較沒有什麼影響因為美國沒有美國的CBAN但是問題是說我覺得產業在這波關稅的挑戰之下它的轉型是最重要的轉型兩個一個是綠色轉型一個數位轉型那這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起積極來合作協助這種所謂的會碳排的產業"},{"start":7232.109,"end":7247.121,"text":"對 因為其實我也有看到你們今天報告有寫到一個你們去年7月1號有發布這個溫室氣體減量額度的交易拍賣跟移轉管理辦法對啊 截至今年的4月11日起有受理了63案的這個專案註冊申請那通過了16案那環境部在去年辦理5場次的這個自願減量專案的說明會共計908人參加那我就想說那你們今年預估要辦幾場是不是可以擴大辦理"},{"start":7261.938,"end":7289.483,"text":"報告委員這個我們正在演繹這個預計會有非常多場來跟產業來溝通中部也會去進行所以到時候也請委員多給我們知道我們預計會有很多場去做產業面對面的溝通因為有時候我們設想的問題不見得每一個廠商都可以一定要現場溝通所以我今天的問題就是說這個部分有沒有預計新的一年要辦多少場非常多目前我們自己隨便算大概都三四十場以上好很好謝謝"},{"start":7290.703,"end":7311.542,"text":"因為目前上一年是五場看到如果有這樣子的成效可以繼續再辦理下去我們也會支持另外就是在淨零轉型的部分當然不僅是挑戰也是機遇那根據2024年的中華民國溫室氣體的排放清測報告在能源部分燃料的燃燒還是仍然是主要的排放來源那超過了50%"},{"start":7313.163,"end":7325.442,"text":"那你今天的書面報告也有提到說石化燃料提升就提高了他競爭力變成主流也是可以預見的但是反過來說台灣經歷這麼多年了這些再生能源風電啊等等等等的其實"},{"start":7326.755,"end":7347.903,"text":"不僅可以看到未來是有這個極限的存在也不可能真正取代所謂的石化能源的目標那簡單來講現在我們真的也是進度落後所以剛剛其實有委員問到有關於這個非核家園這個神主牌我是想要請問當然現在立法院的在野黨很多的立委也有提案要來修這個法"},{"start":7349.324,"end":7363.05,"text":"但我想要請問一下因為這個過程中想要問部長你的態度是什麼因為你剛剛有講到有媒體錯誤報導錯誤引用是不是就是有擷取部分可是然後你說這個應該是在全方位任性委員會挑戰不是在你的氣候變遷委員會討論可是這個部分我覺得我也沒有很認同我覺得氣候變遷委員會應該也要討論因為這跟碳排也有很大的關係所以我就想要問那部長你自己的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":7379.216,"end":7389.187,"text":"包委員因為我當時在算這個淨零的路徑的時候這個的確是一個選項但是我自己真的去算了之後發現有很多的可執行的難度的問題"},{"start":7390.379,"end":7412.781,"text":"且很多廢料安全的問題斷層的問題這個都不是我可以解決的那包含現在包含美國也有很多是支持也質疑我們的執政團隊為什麼這個這個選項不選擇啊那我沒關係我只是想問你個人的表態啊因為總不能夠為什麼這時候要問啊就是你總是要表態說你究竟認為這個是不是一個可行的方案而且你支持不支持"},{"start":7413.622,"end":7430.747,"text":"這個困難可以克服 包含修法也是一種困難可是總不能說 之前我質詢過我們的院長也說 之前的另外一位部長也說你們先修法通過啊但問題是 好啊 修法通過了你們會執行嗎這就是我的問題所以我希望部長在這個部分是不是可以表態一下"},{"start":7431.647,"end":7460.003,"text":"因為我不是核能的主管機關我也不是能源主管機關我們從淨零碳排的確是可以給一些意見從這個角度你支持嗎我認為當然這個其實它有很多複雜的因素例如說像我們過去的核電廠是沒有環評的也不知道當時的地理的狀況現在到這個時間點如果也要做要完整的去做處理這個以我們環評的經驗花上幾年都跑不掉所以基本上我會覺得是說這個很多困難挑戰所以你認為"},{"start":7460.683,"end":7483.744,"text":"你不支持我不是不支持就是說真的要做起來很困難所以部長不是不支持只是過程中有很多挑戰基本上我是開放來看這個事情任何好的能源好的方式我們都開放來討論但是這的確有它歷史的共業因為過去決定這個事情不是那麼民主的來執行的嘛現在所以這個問題要做真的很辛苦啦那所以部長還是不願意表態支持不支持那如果立法院修法通過之後你會支持嗎"},{"start":7484.91,"end":7507.616,"text":"我會遵照大院的這個建議但是我必須也提醒這個委員這個要真的要做是非常辛苦的因為台灣沒有這樣的經驗過好那最後一個問題台中有民眾響應我們的環保回收那並遵照這個減三排三大步驟操作後將手機回收結果殊不知啊他回收的隔天開始他的Apple Pay"},{"start":7508.096,"end":7530.322,"text":"竟然被盜用還盜刷了高鐵票而且共73筆的交易高達10萬元以上重點是整個過程中他也沒有收到任何交易的簡訊通知那想要請教部長一下面對民眾響應這個環保回收而且即便已經遵照了步驟來操作卻仍遭到盜刷跟資料外洩的事情是否會讓民眾不敢再響應這個環保活動"},{"start":7532.841,"end":7555.719,"text":"這個委員我今天才知道這個事情我再來請我們了解一下你知道嗎這個部分我們我們再了解一下麻煩部長了解一下因為我想這個是一件本來是善意但發生這個事可能會影響到大家的這個回收的意願OK好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝六位謝謝部長我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7574.531,"end":7575.845,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":7604.957,"end":7605.125,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8251.143,"end":8265.29,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 下一位我們請劉建國委員好 謝謝主席 有請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":8271.575,"end":8285.086,"text":"部長這個美國家大越大排在也是全球第二大所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟政策的發展這不真的事實就會比這次政府調高關稅"},{"start":8286.607,"end":8310.794,"text":"那引發各國的這樣的一連串的我稱作化學反應然後也讓各界開始擔憂貴衝一道全球減碳禁營的這樣的一個腳步啦但是我是發現本部長在媒體上的發言都表現得相當樂觀的態度認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間那部長可以看"},{"start":8311.554,"end":8323.42,"text":"你的說法在同影片的1月22還有3月31的報導你大致上歸納兩點第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋然後台灣將積極強化與美國合作那第二"},{"start":8326.932,"end":8345.114,"text":"不是只看川普要轉彎的,不用做這個減碳,而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道,做更有效的對接,沒有錯嗎?剛剛之前講的那個合和的事情有斷章取義,這部份應該是沒有啦,對不對?"},{"start":8346.756,"end":8358.184,"text":"我不反對部長的樂觀但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀川普在1月20號上任之後就當天宣布要退出巴黎協定"},{"start":8358.936,"end":8387.433,"text":"然後對這個全球減碳的計畫這個一定會造成一定的這樣的一個衝擊但是同時我們小部長有沒有注意到紐約時報在4月10號有一篇報導據傳美國環境保護署EPA目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體同胞計畫的範圍這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其二氧化碳基因其導致地球冷化的氣體排放量"},{"start":8389.048,"end":8401.142,"text":"所以這雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實但實際上紐約時報還是一個權益性的媒體我想他一定有所本所以我想對川普三年之後的作為"},{"start":8402.523,"end":8420.906,"text":"我們可以發現它是比較維護企業的利益,但是這種作為減碳淨零的其實都有巨大的衝擊。陳如部長早上的報告,台灣是氣候受害的國家,我想環境部可以樂觀,但是相關的因應必須提早。"},{"start":8421.747,"end":8444.606,"text":"要有作為部長可以認同嗎非常認同 包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣"},{"start":8445.146,"end":8464.711,"text":"但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的碳會費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對"},{"start":8470.273,"end":8491.203,"text":"然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期整應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一"},{"start":8497.08,"end":8515.867,"text":"確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以"},{"start":8516.147,"end":8535.248,"text":"我們會看 例如說90天後現在只剩下80幾天了那個90天 80 90天以後到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙"},{"start":8536.71,"end":8556.245,"text":"就是做企業的後盾嘛所以我們的盡力目標不會走回投入但達成時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮或立刻去了解這個排單到位的狀況聽聽他們的意見那我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致的"},{"start":8557.926,"end":8570.634,"text":"如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多"},{"start":8572.995,"end":8576.959,"text":"3.54% 將近4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例"},{"start":8592.815,"end":8598.679,"text":"並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了自身難保了要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失"},{"start":8609.406,"end":8632.425,"text":"好,報告委員,這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持,那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些遺緩經費的調整行政院也是你不知道過江喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁這個能夠...對,還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為,兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好"},{"start":8633.666,"end":8657.002,"text":"好沒問題沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始各大委員會都裝設這個"},{"start":8658.563,"end":8679.792,"text":"CO2的數值的監控儀器花信各大委員會開會時常常也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、餐館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講"},{"start":8681.38,"end":8706.436,"text":"看不到一個更積極的一個管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是談評啦實際上是談評齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視是我自愛難行"},{"start":8708.115,"end":8720.425,"text":"這個是真的有很大的問題如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生部長看一下這個叫什麼LalapopLalapop在哪裡"},{"start":8730.438,"end":8737.751,"text":"南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚怪一個拉拉破變成人體"},{"start":8739.929,"end":8763.303,"text":"空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一片網友的受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個假酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到"},{"start":8765.083,"end":8779.524,"text":"然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清清機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了"},{"start":8780.825,"end":8797.3,"text":"內場回應目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心"},{"start":8803.291,"end":8816.151,"text":"我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?"},{"start":8818.681,"end":8838.142,"text":"今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席,當逛街的民眾有這種問題,然後賣場裡面還有貴位的員工,還有施工的工人,他們就不會受到影響。也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天,到底他們的安全誰來把關?"},{"start":8839.5,"end":8844.845,"text":"那我再回到這個數據,消費度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛、嗜醉、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個消費度到底是誰來把關?"},{"start":8863.188,"end":8889.178,"text":"包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物好啊現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對來說那目前這個拉拉破因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中"},{"start":8889.918,"end":8901.088,"text":"好 部長你答問我台北市環保局有去稽查嘛 到現在還沒有結論嘛對 3月20號開幕了對 3月21號他就去了對 3月21號就去了對 去了 你知道要去幹嘛 稽查嘛 去稽查 對好 你看這個過程3月20開幕 3月21號他就去了 3月24要求四次專責人員然後4月2號 北市環保局請檢測公司採樣"},{"start":8918.786,"end":8937.031,"text":"你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜"},{"start":8948.798,"end":8969,"text":"這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啊對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣"},{"start":8973.187,"end":8983.475,"text":"這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛 對不對好 你再看齁 環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧對齁這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個等你跟Moto說就好"},{"start":8998.579,"end":9012.429,"text":"跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000ppm這部分當時在"},{"start":9015.231,"end":9035.458,"text":"跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準"},{"start":9039.139,"end":9067.65,"text":"但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到時候一個講一千一個講五千"},{"start":9068.82,"end":9086.729,"text":"你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。"},{"start":9088.066,"end":9108.371,"text":"我剛才講了啊,它當下也在持續施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,這等於是兩部法律在看同一個廠子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的衝突跟矛盾"},{"start":9110.796,"end":9125.768,"text":"包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定"},{"start":9129.611,"end":9145.92,"text":"這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年啦通過之後不聽不懂"},{"start":9147.12,"end":9170.707,"text":"這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我可能要包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次針對室內空瓶的這樣的一個秀啊,包含用這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?"},{"start":9171.627,"end":9194.512,"text":"把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆"},{"start":9196.482,"end":9223.933,"text":"我還是要求一個時間嘛 你一個月不行 不然最少兩個月嘛 可以吧好 謝謝好 謝謝 下一位我們請托宣吉委員好 謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長來 請部長"},{"start":9229.48,"end":9245.091,"text":"好 部長好那在月初美國片面宣布全球加徵關稅那我們台灣首當其衝被加徵32%雖然現在在談判期有90天的緩衝期可是仍然有10%的基本關稅"},{"start":9246.212,"end":9268.768,"text":"那我也看部長在報導的時候也有表示說這個對等關稅的衝擊很有可能比歐盟的西變影響還大那再加上我國跟美國近鄰轉型還有近鄰減碳的工作上有很多的合作那這一部分我們環境部的相關部門有沒有針對這影響評估有做一些報告嗎"},{"start":9270.029,"end":9285.021,"text":"其實第一個是說他的關稅32到現在為止一直在滾動的在弄那可能是未來90天以內就會有新的結果那其實我們一直在關注美國新的一個政策那因為也的確委員說的都是道理就是說美國現在已經不談氣候變遷了但是他會談循環經濟所以對我們環境部來說的話也是重要的一環"},{"start":9290.646,"end":9317.742,"text":"所以我們會積極的是衝擊有多少像委員提到的影響的產品或是說減碳的供應鏈等等這個是我們關注的我們會一個一個來來看產業的細項我們還是要等整個經濟部或是我們談判出來的結果之後一步一步的在細緻上談一下我們的衝擊大概有多少啊我們的確是很認真在準備這個事情好部長那你有提到其實像這一波美國大幅提高這個關稅你看他像對中國"},{"start":9318.542,"end":9343.541,"text":"的制品關稅它提高到245%那一定會影響中國的鋼鐵鋁還有太陽能設備跟電動車的電池等那這些近鄰關鍵的材料那雖然好像只對中國有影響但是事實上這些原物料跟零組件都是全球減碳供應鏈不可或缺的一部分那這樣子是不是會"},{"start":9344.562,"end":9365.833,"text":"放緩我國企業對於轉型的進程或者會增加我們這些綠色轉型的成本包委員因為如果說以這個太陽能設備或是離岸風電相關的設備我們是沒有中國的紅色供應鏈在裡面所以我們的這種再生能源的這個進展應該不是受到直接立即的一個衝擊"},{"start":9366.793,"end":9392.656,"text":"但是其他的部分例如說好電動車電池等等這個就是我們未來要關注的一個焦點因為畢竟中國在這個稀土的掌握或是重金屬的掌握是有一大的比例如果說全世界這個關稅起的話其實這個對我們後續這樣電池產業的衝擊會很大那這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來寫上這個事情因為這個數據經濟部包含產發署他們會比我們敏感很多我們會尊重他們的意見來做後續的研判"},{"start":9393.357,"end":9404.566,"text":"所以部長的意思說針對電動車電池這部分可能影響比較大對其實這個因為中國扮演很大的一個稀土例如說外來的鋰電池等等這個可能都會受到一些衝擊但是這個還要觀察啦那像那這個電動車電池這些的產業他會"},{"start":9410.471,"end":9428.968,"text":"變成會優先終止這個投資的計畫嗎可能就是說第一個是會不會斷鏈全球供應鏈會不會斷鏈斷鏈之後其實這個就產生價格的一個波動這個後續的影響這個我想經濟部可能比我們會更清楚但是我覺得這樣對我們來說的話發展可能會受到一些影響"},{"start":9429.989,"end":9451.89,"text":"那像這個它這個連鎖效應會不會影響到我們整個國家的減碳工作甚至我們的減碳目標需不需要來做調整第一個是說我們認為因為我們1月23號好不容易匯集整個行政團隊還有整個我們現在正在進行匯集一個目標之後跟大眾來進行溝通我們好不容易有一個目標我們這時候在"},{"start":9452.25,"end":9468.501,"text":"在改而且那個改的這個目標現在還不確定所以我們還是維持現在的一個狀況但是我們會擴大跟產業跟各界的一個溝通如果溝通我們掌握到好的數據的時候未來還有滾動調整的一個空間所以我們現在是穩定大家往前走甚至是趁這個機會轉型為最優先的目標"},{"start":9471.343,"end":9486.055,"text":"所以目前還不到調整目標的階段目前來看的話因為最後的數字還沒有出來如果最後的數字出來對產業可能活不下去了我們會配合經濟部我們會爭取預算是不是對產業有一些更好的一個輔導的方案"},{"start":9487.861,"end":9508.966,"text":"那我們下週也會舉辦這個氣候變遷委員會那是不是有機會把關稅影響到衝擊這些綠色轉型的這些事項在談判的過程中可以跟總統談一下可以爭取台美淨零排碳的合作機會像我們擔心說不要只跟美國"},{"start":9511.139,"end":9527.048,"text":"談這個買碳排高的天然氣是不是有機會擴大投資針對綠能像我們這部分可以擴大投資的機會也可以爭取發展淨零碳排的意願包委員當然這個天然氣只是一部分我覺得那個不是大的重點"},{"start":9527.628,"end":9556.878,"text":"美國有很多近鄰的新的科技例如說碳捕捉跟封存的CCS等等或是各種新的工具我們都非常期待當然川普總統對離岸風電等等會覺得說這個不重要這個其實我們也都聽到了所以我們其實在裡面應該會有一些建議當然這個都是我們的建議最後整個合作還是要看我們的國安團隊或談判團隊對美國的協商對啊 因為我們希望不要只放在碳排高的天然氣上面"},{"start":9557.638,"end":9573.96,"text":"盡量擴大投資的機會去找一些綠能把我們這個近年碳排的這些能源有機會來多採購好 可以可以好 那部長在之前報導的時候也有提到我們有關注一下你說有評估"},{"start":9575.444,"end":9591.59,"text":"跟行政院來爭取經費設計一套協助企業綠色轉型的方案那你也說大概目標一到兩個月就能提出來讓企業能更有提早減碳的意願那這部分我們初步的規劃有出來了嗎"},{"start":9592.33,"end":9617.956,"text":"目前還沒有只是說因為第一個我們還是要等那個關稅最後談判的結果到底誰受衝擊我們一定要因為現在的這個經費是非常的緊縮所以我們要針對受影響的為第一優先我們不希望浪費錢所以這個部分我們要等這個關稅最後談判定了哪一個產業影響最大我們就針對那個來做這個所謂的客製化的來做處理所以目前還沒有但是我必須說"},{"start":9618.596,"end":9647.415,"text":"這個是我們很關注的我們會一直緊盯的來調整來關注這個事情所以要等到關稅定那你看哪個受哪個企業產業受影響比較大再來做調整這個報告委員這個兩個部分一個是從這個我們的經濟部門經貿談判部門最後的結果那另外一個呢是我們環境部會積極的跟產業來溝通因為有時候從產業直接的市場上的溝通或是我們談判最後的溝通兩方面得到的一個結果我相信會對企業是最有用的"},{"start":9648.476,"end":9671.141,"text":"那我們剛剛都有提到美國對全球加徵關稅的影響勢必會影響到我們減碳設備跟原物料價格的連動上漲那針對這部分也會影響到企業推展綠色轉型的意願那我們是不是針對碳費的收入有沒有機會用於協助產業綠色轉型減少他們企業壓力緩衝的機會"},{"start":9676.082,"end":9705.722,"text":"因為我們現在這個就在規劃因為我們的碳費審議委員會在前幾個禮拜有開過第一次會議那下一次會議可能就要談說未來這個明年的這個如果有收到碳費之後明年的這個經費要怎麼去做使用那現在因為遇到這個關稅的這個衝擊我想這個其實是我們最關心的所以我也贊同未來兩個這個委員提到的一個綠色轉型的方案實成或是說如何幫助這個受重啟的產業他的能夠順利轉型成功所以我非常同意委員的看法"},{"start":9706.442,"end":9731.739,"text":"因為我們就擔心說因為關稅的問題會拖延影響到我國淨零減碳的進度所以這個碳費他本來就有補助相關機關執行溫室氣體減量工作的用意所以應該朝這一部分我們來擴大補助對象對受關稅影響較大的產業我們用碳費協助他推展綠色轉型的工作那也對於我們"},{"start":9732.72,"end":9758.411,"text":"環境部達成2030、2035減碳目標應該有比較大的注意吧對對 這個我們會來列入考慮但是因為這個還沒有出來等到出來有影響我們一定會做出這樣的考量對啊 因為我們希望這個碳飛能夠協助產業來做這個綠色轉型的工作對對好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林淑文委員來做詢答"},{"start":9764.091,"end":9782.47,"text":"林淑芬委員啊我老公人該該誰?我想說我聽到黃好 謝謝主席喔 是不是請我們彭部長部長林委員好部長好"},{"start":9784.12,"end":9811.541,"text":"大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過就是說這個產業界工廠透過SIMS系統CEMS系統做了空污數據造假那個時候我們就發現其實這些業者他們使用的DHS系統就是DAS系統裡面竟然有即時值的寫入的功能而且不可以"},{"start":9813.996,"end":9822.588,"text":"不只可以及時的傳輸數據還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料那我現在講說"},{"start":9824.76,"end":9830.825,"text":"依照各公司場所應該設置連續自動監測設施就是SIMS系統的這一些固定污染源從製程來看 從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染 排放高風險"},{"start":9847.628,"end":9856.118,"text":"我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐"},{"start":9860.781,"end":9882.821,"text":"再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主"},{"start":9886.724,"end":9893.568,"text":"然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼 因為它高風險 高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了 揭露了台塑的六清廠"},{"start":9915.999,"end":9923.622,"text":"屢屢發現超標 然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據 偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣 所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改"},{"start":9936.167,"end":9949.998,"text":"那我們24小時的監測算什麼 所以這不是一個小事 這是整個連續監測制度 連續監測系統的信任的崩解"},{"start":9951.175,"end":9953.056,"text":"所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下"},{"start":9970.831,"end":9973.513,"text":"這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來"},{"start":9987.424,"end":10001.592,"text":"所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統"},{"start":10007.145,"end":10020.771,"text":"如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位"},{"start":10026.004,"end":10053.791,"text":"你是誰 對啦 你是哪個單位 時間暫停一下主席 我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個 質詢這個問題 為什麼有人一直問請問 我只是請教一下 我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示 剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎"},{"start":10055.533,"end":10077.458,"text":"對啦 哪個單位 哪個記者 哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解 主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字 處理主席請你裁示啦"},{"start":10084.883,"end":10106.622,"text":"請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報 哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解"},{"start":10108.305,"end":10119.576,"text":"主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業"},{"start":10123.959,"end":10139.771,"text":"企業費欺負這個大財團 我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個祖密 到這裡面來的每個人是誰 你都搞不清楚狀況 這樣行嗎你以為在這裡問政 沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思 就在那邊講說 但是你是哪來來 給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下"},{"start":10153.995,"end":10154.475,"text":"台灣時報我為什麼要講這個呢"},{"start":10177.287,"end":10188.95,"text":"我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是做假的判你命的那樣呢你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法"},{"start":10204.995,"end":10219.412,"text":"你們的DAS系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下 應經中央主管機關認可的"},{"start":10221.695,"end":10249.011,"text":"驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是"},{"start":10249.963,"end":10264.812,"text":"你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼"},{"start":10266.203,"end":10280.445,"text":"好 包委你在1月2號你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你夾車給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業 焚化爐 事業廢棄業鋼鐵業"},{"start":10295.945,"end":10304.83,"text":"水泥業然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除 刪除你也稍微解說一下"},{"start":10311.19,"end":10335.822,"text":"保證你不知道喔 會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道 這重大政策不是 包委員重大變革 而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣"},{"start":10338.823,"end":10340.446,"text":"給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續監測系統還當兒戲"},{"start":10348.322,"end":10373.948,"text":"保證員你說你不知道喔 你可以說你不知道這叫走不動 要回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是 包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦 我告訴你我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的"},{"start":10377.409,"end":10391.287,"text":"林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?不然你不知道啦,你把業務單位去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。"},{"start":10393.149,"end":10407.684,"text":"他們用手把這一個辦法刪除 我唸給你聽非常暴力 非常的赤裸裸 非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量"},{"start":10413.65,"end":10417.793,"text":"總和共 總和共 給你八年的時間輔導業者給你八年的時間準備 給你八年要做你說沒有人可以來驗證 沒有人力可以消化 可以把關"},{"start":10431.804,"end":10445.152,"text":"喔 你們這麼聰明 聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉 改成說啊沒關係啦 這個大使系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣"},{"start":10447.932,"end":10454.535,"text":"二零一七年 也是交給地方政府去監督我講比較難聽的 台塑六親為例台塑六親 地方的建設 如果需要錢給他簽申請 拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的整個 整個有鄉鎮的台塑六親不可以忘記了一件人說到冠中 一件人說到義中 一件人說到鄉中是這樣"},{"start":10475.39,"end":10485.299,"text":"你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業、不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇,地方政府也沒有專頁去做"},{"start":10499.147,"end":10519.247,"text":"然後人家就不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初"},{"start":10522.43,"end":10540.483,"text":"把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣 天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好 我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看"},{"start":10541.536,"end":10545.763,"text":"你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格"},{"start":10556.372,"end":10562.534,"text":"這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西應監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個"},{"start":10573.971,"end":10595.743,"text":"氮氧化硫 氯化氫 氯氧化氮 揮發性有機物質 排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中 污染 污染外部化 環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔 我們也知道 對不對你是自己這樣喔高風險 高污染的"},{"start":10602.628,"end":10605.369,"text":"我們才做24小時連續監測高風險 高汙染的 你把連續監測的制度 系統 這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了 制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改 因為廠商台塑篡改 所以我們才要改善這個"},{"start":10627.894,"end":10646.013,"text":"監督的系統要確保他是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度 只是認真去執行而已現在你 現在怎麼樣 你是要宣示對圖利石化業者 圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者 是嗎"},{"start":10647.284,"end":10665.558,"text":"博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對我的說法不是喔你們對我的說法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量"},{"start":10675.726,"end":10682.21,"text":"你現在在這裡說 跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔 今天你不可以這麼亂說你現在是怎樣 1月2號改掉了"},{"start":10690.987,"end":10714.58,"text":"你知道地方環保局的問題嗎 地方環保局的問題有什麼 你就要搞地方 下放給地方 地方有沒有能力有沒有能力 沒錯 顯然你都不知道這個事情知識體大 災團鬆到要死 人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌 佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜 排名是前三大現在是怎樣"},{"start":10718.237,"end":10721.159,"text":"不對 你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你現在是用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死 人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的 你說給我們聽一下"},{"start":10746.229,"end":10773.329,"text":"其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都中招八年啦 八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足 騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個 空污的"},{"start":10776.092,"end":10792.781,"text":"量能不足 全國是幾個 倒幾個四百五十個 四百五十個五百隻 沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說 我覺得笑話 保證還有理由嗎 還有理由嗎現在是怎樣 栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低"},{"start":10803.117,"end":10811.579,"text":"超標的連罰金都不繳超標的開罰單而已現在唸罰單就可以篡改 改改都唸罰單就不罰了騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假還不是你們 不是你們去找的是我們揭發的你們包庇的"},{"start":10831.226,"end":10847.798,"text":"2017年 從以前 從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們 我們揭發了 揭弊了你們還不改 還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦 你快說啊 保證我很不願意拖時間 但是這個問題這麼嚴重 我沒有辦法接受"},{"start":10855.694,"end":10861.46,"text":"人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗"},{"start":10878.789,"end":10892.937,"text":"我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼"},{"start":10893.871,"end":10912.806,"text":"那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告"},{"start":10916.428,"end":10940.199,"text":"你們 你沒有看你們的SIMS計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知"},{"start":10941.633,"end":10944.575,"text":"現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供讓他們知道,讓他們沒人看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板"},{"start":10955.234,"end":10975.719,"text":"能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的"},{"start":10980.2,"end":11003.216,"text":"你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統"},{"start":11004.156,"end":11017.468,"text":"還要能夠比對Modbus、TCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你 你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒有人力 也沒有人 也沒有專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們"},{"start":11025.353,"end":11044.88,"text":"就現有的 你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛 異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update 沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸"},{"start":11047.941,"end":11053.044,"text":"甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中"},{"start":11059.844,"end":11080.646,"text":"出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況"},{"start":11082.285,"end":11092.654,"text":"這不是沒發生過喔 我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞 在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體 產出不實數據大規模造假 虛報監測值 欺騙政府而下面的人 眼睛都看不見 頂頭的人 脖子都聽不聽"},{"start":11111.257,"end":11116.1,"text":"保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了"},{"start":11128.035,"end":11143.626,"text":"整個管理的制度又回到業者 財團自己裝監測器自己回報數據然後呢 地方自行查核六天一天 人家說是冠中 一天是疑中 兩天是重中這樣喔 現在這是要怎麼感動啦你這個走回頭路 過去就沒辦法了你現在說這樣子行 這是在欺騙誰啦"},{"start":11158.061,"end":11173.162,"text":"環境部要給我 也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三"},{"start":11175.011,"end":11201.107,"text":"你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做"},{"start":11202.168,"end":11210.997,"text":"像話嗎 太粗魯了 太暴力了1月1號要做 1月2號整掉 辦法刪掉 通通都改掉你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎 你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎 吃相難看啦 包庇的難看啦不覺得嗎"},{"start":11225.796,"end":11240.479,"text":"包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啦那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分資訊的提升這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔是是你不要說到說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改造回來嗎改革能夠停滯嗎還不是改革欸監察制度都沒有改欸"},{"start":11254.386,"end":11267.251,"text":"只是你的管理 漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的 又把它拿掉了荒謬 華天下之大雞 欺騙人民啦這不是包庇 什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做 你說你要回去調查"},{"start":11279.827,"end":11283.528,"text":"我現在在問你 就我所講的這個 你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好 給我一點時間你不覺得應該要 這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的人人在台上講話 啊我們要起一個橋 但是我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補走一下好 就是這樣處理的啊 你不知道嗎"},{"start":11307.079,"end":11315.443,"text":"你叫男人手短的業者 男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者感到可憐 感到可憐不然你說說也感到可憐如果男人手短 吃人嘴軟"},{"start":11325.985,"end":11344.094,"text":"還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你連夾布丹威我也可以懷疑 何立東懷疑是在惹事好慷啦石化產業大財團鋼鐵業都股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費請勿 多肥紅包不知道送多少別再說其他的對不對你裡面有人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快"},{"start":11354.54,"end":11370.59,"text":"這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好 我會去回答小姐再給妳委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝我們林曙芬委員發言那接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長請彭部長"},{"start":11386.537,"end":11406.604,"text":"黃委員好部長我先這個就剛剛淑芬委員講的我們真的希望就是部長要認真的去思考一下那也要去了解真正去了解到底是什麼樣的原因那另外我先從我們地方的事情先講起就是說就剛剛淑芬委員講的"},{"start":11408.204,"end":11424.06,"text":"其實有很多事情如果說要由地方的環保局來做監測或審查的話其實有時候會有地方人情的壓力像彰化地區在這幾年當中我們看到在上禮拜六公共電視有一個紀錄片就記錄整個彰化沿海地區"},{"start":11430.246,"end":11453.256,"text":"的這個環境的污染那其中有一部分是這個廢棄土的這個污染那我知道其實我當立委到現在幾乎每一個會期都會特別提到就是說在我們的這個地方有很多有的是在那個比較人煙稀少的地方或者是在八卦山山脈山谷"},{"start":11453.823,"end":11481.491,"text":"被亂到廢土或者是廢棄物的這個部分那這個地方是在彰化的西南角那原本是一個可能一個生態的一個園區後來因為沒有繼續經營那後來就變成這樣的一座可能就是廢棄土堆置的一個地方那我希望部長能夠知道就是說其實我們有很多的這個廢棄物的"},{"start":11483.671,"end":11502.679,"text":"這個處理廠他們也許你們都有那個GPS的那個定位或者是有什麼樣的監測那可是就是說上有政策下有對策有很多在半途或者是先到某一處先堆置之後再有非法的這個車輛然後再"},{"start":11504.539,"end":11525.532,"text":"再去這個人煙稀少的地方去請到所以我不知道就是說我們環境部對於這樣的一個狀況未來怎麼樣去預防或者現在這樣的一個廢棄物亂到的這種情形其實還是非常的多那我不知道說環境部在部長的這個領導之下針對這樣的一個狀況那我們要怎麼去改進"},{"start":11529.785,"end":11545.958,"text":"好 報告委員第一個是這個是所謂的有兩個一個是營建剩餘土石方跟營建廢棄物這兩個部分那當然這兩個部分一個是內政部國土署管的一個是營建這個廢棄物是環境部循環署管的這兩個部位之間其實過去呢"},{"start":11546.858,"end":11565.745,"text":"總有一些模糊地帶我們這邊是有連單在做處理那邊的土石方剛剛也有委員說他等於是會繞單出去所以目前兩個部會的確合在一起然後這個有中央我們兩個都願意來承擔做這個事情另外一個是這個也要跟地方政府因為彰化其實是本身"},{"start":11566.545,"end":11589.721,"text":"是被別人盜的所以其實我們現在是針對一些會輸出的縣市我們一個一個去談那希望大家一起合作組成一個平台首先就是全流向的管理它一定要這個進出到尾巴都要確定不要像現在這樣繞單的一個情況所以管理的機制要加強所以你們現在有這樣做嗎現在這要做因為也跟委員報告我們統計出來一年台灣大概是1000萬方應該是差不多1000萬噸"},{"start":11593.803,"end":11620.955,"text":"這個量真的在拖到當中所以我們也真的認知到這個問題也跨部會在協調因為過去其實這個跨級到很多的單位大家可能會覺得我只好做好我自己的但是就產出這樣的問題而且是三四十年來累積就這樣所以我們真的在處理但是還要一點點時間因為這個其實第一個需要經費第二個是很多部會的整合中央跟地方這個要一點點時間那我們現在工作的幾個月快要收尾了快要完成了"},{"start":11622.5,"end":11635.434,"text":"我們希望說這個問題能夠解決啦因為我也提了很多次那確實當時是說因為我們有那個GPS的那個衛星定位所以應該可以很容易去監測那結果真的是"},{"start":11638.717,"end":11663.568,"text":"有一些不肖業者他就是用繞單的方式或者是先在某個地方堆置堆置完之後再載到其他非法的那個堆置場去所以我覺得這個問題應該要確實真的要去解決要不然在我們的那個彰化有很多我剛剛講的八卦山的山谷或者是在這個彰化的西南角沿岸地區可能就是有一些廢棄的餘溫廢棄的那個農田"},{"start":11667.129,"end":11679.379,"text":"都被堆滿了這樣的一個土石方或者是廢棄物的那種有的根本不知道它是什麼東西啦所以我覺得說也麻煩部長或者是跟國土署這邊真的要盡速的將這個問題來解決"},{"start":11683.721,"end":11704.874,"text":"這個我們在進行當中大概還要再幾個月跟委員保證這個是我們正在進行的當中有結果第一個會跟委員報告好那另外我想請教就是說在那個川普總統上任之後那在4月初的這個對等關稅的這個問題那在他上任的時候那時候也提出來一個就是要"},{"start":11705.534,"end":11708.696,"text":"推出這個巴黎協定嘛 氣候協定那我想請教就是說在我們整個台灣的針對於這個淨零碳排或者是整個這樣的一個碳費會不會因為美國所提出來的這一個"},{"start":11722.965,"end":11750.319,"text":"這個譬如說退出這個巴黎氣候協定那會不會有做什麼樣的調整報告委員因為碳費目前我們是初期是300塊100塊50塊而且又高碳洩漏我們是不要有綠色通膨造成企業很大負擔先求有再求好的概念去推動這個制度所以目前我們也有算一些受到產業的影響的這個公司其實影響很低但是其實也有一些產業他可能就活不下去所以我們的確"},{"start":11751.86,"end":11772.172,"text":"但是這個還要等關稅最後結果出來之後我們應該會滾動的來做調整等於是還是要幫助產業但是這個也是一個轉型的機會所以你們是會做一個調整如果說對我們台灣衝擊很大最後的報告出來那我們當然一定要政府是企業的後盾我們一定會必須要來做處理"},{"start":11773.452,"end":11796.941,"text":"我們也希望就是說因為台灣是外貿就是外銷取向的一個國家那在4月3號就是川普總統提出來這個對等關稅這個議題其實對於基層的像宜彰化這邊中小企業居多那其實他們已經都出來了那有的甚至都沒有單所以對於就是說未來台灣可能"},{"start":11797.581,"end":11812.835,"text":"在某方面如果說對於我們的這個碳費或者是說這個美國這邊他們整個淨零碳排如果他們自己本身都有做一些調整的話那有沒有可能就是說我們也會做一個滾動式的一個調整"},{"start":11814.076,"end":11838.808,"text":"所以這個也是這個地方非常關心的因為總是要讓地方能夠活得下去如果說活不下去的話其實也會影響到很多勞工的生計所以我也希望就是說環境部針對這一部分也是因為我們要跟國際接軌一方面我們要跟國際接軌那一方面又要讓我們所有的地方這些產業"},{"start":11841.529,"end":11861.75,"text":"能夠符合我們的規定那又可以生存下去所以我覺得環境部也是扮演一個非常重要的一個角色我們會滾動式來調整就是說我們會做企業的後盾絕對不會說這個時候還要如果說真的企業經營不下去也不是我們樂見的所以我們一定會滾動式來做調整來協助"},{"start":11865.113,"end":11890.984,"text":"另外我想請教一下就是說未來我們原本說2030年就是階段減碳目標就是有那個逐漸減碳那我想問一下就是在今天問一下部長就是針對你覺得說2030年你的這個減碳的目標有沒有鬆動或者是還是充滿著信心或者是你覺得說未來可能也會做一些調整"},{"start":11891.964,"end":11903.83,"text":"對 報告委員今天我有公布一個數字就是2023年我們的減碳跟2005比是4.64上一個數字是1.8表示我們台灣的減碳是有成效的那未來我們目前預估2024大概是5到6然後2025"},{"start":11907.972,"end":11934.052,"text":"大概是8到9左右這樣的一個幅度所以我們按照這個趨勢下去當然我們28加減2我是希望是至少要28但是萬一整個局勢變差有可能會減2到26所以我們給他一個範圍但是說真的現在關稅的衝擊可能比這個還要來的大所以說真的我等到最後出來說不定我們還在建議是不是要變成再多一個1%或2%再做修正這個的確是有可能"},{"start":11934.752,"end":11956.957,"text":"我不是那麼剛硬的說一定要怎麼樣台灣要生存還是最重要的對對對好那我在這邊也是感謝部長因為你是一個肯做事的人所以我剛剛提到的地方的這個污染的這個議題我們希望就是說能夠我們要有一些政策有一些對策來積極的解決那另外就是說因應美國的這個關稅的議題那其實我們針對環境部"},{"start":11961.218,"end":11987.56,"text":"原本所提出來的一些政策我覺得應該是要有一些滾動式的一個調整好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言那接下來請翁曉琳委員發言好有請部長彭部長"},{"start":11993.098,"end":12021.035,"text":"是部長好我其實看了今天部長這邊所提的報告我尤其關心的是有關於就是在已經被公告的要嚴格控管的這空氣品質的場所的這個議題那麼我們知道其實依照室內空氣品質管制法第6條的規定現在是主管機關他可以綜合各種考量的因素來公告要受到更嚴格的空氣品質"},{"start":12022.175,"end":12038.127,"text":"標準的這樣的公私立場所可是在我們研究發現裡面有看到就是似乎高中以下的學校包含幼兒園等等的這個是排除在外就是還沒有在你們公告的場所裡面不知道原因是什麼"},{"start":12039.243,"end":12062.079,"text":"當時其實在推的時候因為這個是很久以前大概106的時候其實有去做溝通可是他們第一個是沒有這個預算因為做一次這個檢查大概要兩三萬塊而且他有一個專責的人員所以大部分的這種中小學他覺得他們的預算還有各方面人力不夠的確是有抗拒所以我們後來改用這個自主標章等於是稍微輕一點來鼓勵他來進行並不是強勢型的"},{"start":12064.08,"end":12089.469,"text":"我想這邊想提醒部長就是說因為其實為什麼要做公告一些公私立場所要受到更為嚴格的空氣品質的管制那麼無疑就是考量到就是國民的健康安全還有特定的族群的健康的問題那麼但是像是幼兒園高中以下的學校等等這些孩子們其實更需要乾淨的空氣"},{"start":12090.369,"end":12093.993,"text":"室內空氣品質必須要更加良好但是現在卻因為就是可能我們在訂定相關的授權辦法的時候沒有考慮到場所的差異性那麼卻又把他們排除在外然後只鼓勵他們要去推動這種自主標章本心認為其實這樣是不夠的是不是應該環境部要去研擬"},{"start":12115.091,"end":12142.527,"text":"各别特别的办法能够让高中以下的学校幼儿园或是财力比较不足的这样的一个场所他们也能够有一个更好的一个可以自主空气品质管理的这样的一个机制那么甚至环境部也可以去编列相关的费用去补助这些学校还有幼儿园然后让他们也能够这个有"},{"start":12143.562,"end":12169.128,"text":"他們裡面的這個空氣品質可以達到符合我們現在的要求否則的話我認為說最應該要照顧的就是小孩們就是年輕的孩子們他們的健康就反而是他們是被排除在外的但是這部分的話我希望環境部是不是可以去研擬相關的這個辦法可以因場所的差異而去制定特別的標準"},{"start":12169.468,"end":12192.566,"text":"好這個我們會努力啦因為最主要還是現在的有一些這個連續自動的監測就是他結合IOT例如說送風等等這個其實我們看到市場已經很成熟了所以我們會因為這個如果真的要檢測要花兩三萬塊然後他還要花錢去做改善其實對於很多的業者都是很大的負擔他們會很抗拒那現在有一些IOT的工具如果說"},{"start":12193.526,"end":12214.271,"text":"政府部門可以提供相對應的補貼補助那麼來把相關的這個系統建立起來我覺得是有必要的那麼接下來呢我還要再請教的另外一個問題就是說其實現在呢在部長就是您也曾經提到為了要管制移動的污染源所以鼓勵地方的環保局要劃設國中校園旁邊有個空品的維護區那麼現在我們看到已經有六個縣市他們在"},{"start":12221.553,"end":12245.367,"text":"一些中小學旁邊有規劃空氣品質維護區不過就是我們也發現就是這些空氣品質維護區就除了花蓮的中正國小他們已經有了一個清楚什麼空氣污染物質的改善其他的學校都還沒有一個具體改善的數據或是就不知道環境部到底對於這些學校的周邊的空氣品質有必要去進行追蹤"},{"start":12246.24,"end":12270.915,"text":"OK 報告委員現在大概有91個啦91個空民維護區不過學校真的只有只有中小學只有10個那現在呢大概有30個正在規劃當中就是說其實第一個我們優先是在工廠附近的等等的那個要先做所以這個部分是一激烈這個我要跟地方環保局一起來合作也要人力所以目前我們的確是跟有些這個所謂的風險區域的縣市環保局在討論當中"},{"start":12272.756,"end":12287.965,"text":"我認為說這個要積極的去做有些他已經設置都一兩年了可是我們沒有看到有任何改善的數據不要說空氣品質維護區畫在那裡只是好看的只想要符合法規上的要求但是沒有實際的作為的話就沒有意義這部分的話也請"},{"start":12288.605,"end":12308.004,"text":"部長要去盯這件事情接下來還有一個部分就是說其實我們知道有一些地方就像剛剛譬如說有些小學它就在工業區那麼現在就空氣品質監測系統所測定的項目裡面基本上好像是不涵蓋臭味對不對"},{"start":12308.905,"end":12311.727,"text":"錯位其實要每個人認知的錯不一樣所以其實錯位是蠻特別那個要有專業的人來聞臭屍來都判別的可是在你們的空氣品質的監測在測定項目裡面的話就是有關於錯位的部分"},{"start":12324.734,"end":12339.679,"text":"它是屬於得測定項目難道國外或是我們現在沒有個技術可以比較客觀的去測量有關於臭味的部分嗎因為確實我們也知道有些小學他們就在工業區旁邊尤其又在瀝青廠旁邊那聞的味道是非常不舒服的"},{"start":12340.559,"end":12362.445,"text":"這個部分的話我難道沒有辦法可以去克服這樣的一個檢測的難度嗎這個因為臭味是要人工有專門的聞臭師他是很專業的在做的確環境部有一些配合的但是例如說我舉例臭豆腐有人說香有人說臭所以每個認定不一樣可是你看我現在的那個有關於那個瀝青製成的涵蓋的物質"},{"start":12364.619,"end":12380.005,"text":"你看這些包含什麼本啊這些其實這些都是對於人體的身體健康非常不好的一些物質對那這個部分是沒有辦法去測嗎還是現在已經有在測了嗎多環分香進化"},{"start":12381.516,"end":12401.457,"text":"核物還有什麼碗類乳碗類多環分香碳氫化合物不好意思跟你們報告因為那個會有味道的東西它成分都不一樣好像有淡的它通常有味道有硫的它通常有味道所以你就沒有無差別的方式要去測這個臭味是什麼"},{"start":12401.917,"end":12425.908,"text":"很難就是不可能除非怎樣回到實驗室用那個支撲儀來跑那就會比較清楚說是哪一些成分那不然的話人的感官其實我們的鼻子的最低真的極限很零很低很低的濃度各種不同的話混在一起沒有沒有一個簡單的儀器可以來做這個我們目前都在嘗試但沒有還沒有成分是啦我認為說這個應該在科學上面還是有"},{"start":12426.728,"end":12433.274,"text":"辦法去克服的這個技術上面或是當然像部長講的每個人的主觀的感覺是不一樣但是還是有一個一般共同的標準嗎如果說全部的士紳都已經聞到哇濃濃的這種瀝青的這個化學物質的味道不能講說這個覺得說啊這個是他們的這個嗅覺太靈敏了所以把忽略委員這個只要有個案來申報通知我們都會有專業團隊去協助檢測"},{"start":12451.049,"end":12455.091,"text":"因為這個部分譬如說這個小學就在立青廠的旁邊它長期可能就在這樣的環境下所以可能更應該需要長時間的去常態性的去檢測而不適合就是說都是等待人民主動的去檢舉然後去舉報然後才來做這樣子的事情我覺得這樣的話其實環境部就還有地方環保局就不太負責任了最後我還要講一個議題就是其實在過去韓國瑜"},{"start":12480.246,"end":12489.97,"text":"院長擔任高雄市市長的時候曾經有提出過一個議題就是可以在校園裡面設置冷氣機與空氣清淨機所謂的雙機計劃那劉建國委員之前也曾經有倡議說在雲林的麥寮國小可以安裝新風系統其實我認為這個部分其實確實是有助於可以改善室內空氣品質"},{"start":12505.117,"end":12525.658,"text":"那不知道環境部對於這個部分有沒有什麼看法未來有沒有可能提撥相關的補助費用補助這些至少在工業區旁的小學們可以優先的去申請改善空氣品質的設備OK 鮑委員那個新風系統是劉委員為了左水溪陽城特別去爭取的這個是教育部在做補助"},{"start":12526.338,"end":12547.012,"text":"那這個剛剛有報告說他是未來是不是要再檢討那另外一個的是韓市長的這個那時候韓院長的時候推動的是冷氣機現在中小學都有了但是空氣清淨機呢還是要看需求啦不限的每個學校都是在供氣污染區但是如果有的話就跟這個興奉系統有一點類似是那我們會再來研議是可以就是綜合性的去"},{"start":12548.353,"end":12569.684,"text":"盤點到底哪些學校它是有急迫性的必要就像我們剛剛講的在工業區旁的小學其實看起來也不是太多頂多大概幾時間吧可以優先從那些學校來進行改善總之就是說現在因為我們少子化所以每個孩子都是我們的寶貝我們都希望他們的身體健康能夠得到最好的照顧那政府該花的錢還是要花"},{"start":12571.665,"end":12582.929,"text":"該補助的還是要補助 這個我們來研究一下 希望部長這邊可以特別關注這件事情 好 謝謝葉榮小林委員的發言 那接下來請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝 麻煩請彭部長麻煩請彭部長"},{"start":12596.252,"end":12620.723,"text":"侯委員好部長好感謝周偉安排今天這是蠻符合時事議題的那本席剛剛也聆聽好幾位委員的一個質詢我就直接就教因為最主要現在最重要是美國的關稅產業衝擊那請教環境部有沒有針對我們出口導向產業的減碳投資策略做提前評估有沒有掌握所謂的受影響的企業清單"},{"start":12621.523,"end":12632.211,"text":"目前我們還是看這個關稅因為關稅32%你剛剛有講就32%到最後多少不知道但是我有注意到您剛剛講到一句話就是說有些產業會活不下去"},{"start":12632.981,"end":12661.595,"text":"哪些產業目前如果32%的有一些傳統產業的確是非常辛苦那不過我們也在做比對是跟我們碳費的關聯性到底是如何目前我們來看的話的確有一些但是不是很大是啊但是你剛有講到所以說本席現在是想問的是說你們環境部盤點的狀況針對說這樣子的一個衝擊那你剛提到是說有產業活不下去那甚至有講到轉型嘛福島轉型"},{"start":12662.642,"end":12689.799,"text":"那我想請教具體的方案現在演你了嗎其實這個最重要是要看最後關稅的談判的最後的結果所以目前我們說真的我們只能說去預你可能最後的衝擊是什麼因為最後每個產業是不一樣的那當然最早是半導體業那當然32%是很幾乎是大家都衝擊很大那部長那一天上禮拜五的專案報告或是說這禮拜二的院長的總質詢我想你有在現場嗎都在都在都在現場"},{"start":12690.84,"end":12707.202,"text":"記不記得上禮拜五的專案報告裡面院長有講到一個880億的方案那其中裡面我們那時候就講了會不會還有需要再盤點的部分院長也在我禮拜二總之選的時候就有講了就是說880億是一開始提出來但是有可能因應現在的變化"},{"start":12708.483,"end":12735.631,"text":"會再請各部會再匯集再提出那我也問就是說880億會是最終嗎院長好像鬆口了然後不一定因為我們要經過特別條例所以有可能未來下個禮拜報出來的特別條例的相關草案會比880億的規模更多對不對那現在我們環境部有沒有針對這個部分也譬如說我們現在盤點有可能的衝擊假設我們以最壞的打算真的到時候還是32%降不下來"},{"start":12737.051,"end":12745.307,"text":"那我們受到衝擊以及我們後續轉型的一個方案的部分有沒有跟行政院爭取額度爭取中"},{"start":12746.092,"end":12772.682,"text":"我們還在爭取中預計會要爭取多少額度現在還很難盤算的出來下個禮拜院長就醫院長的講法下禮拜就要把特別條例送到立法院因為報告這個委員會因為880其實他很早就定案了是 700億經濟部嘛 180億農業部嘛所以沒有環境部啊對 那時候本席現在在那我們是希望未來第二波或是第三波的時候我可以把我們相關的產業可以納進來"},{"start":12773.542,"end":12794,"text":"是 但是現在以特別條例來講應該要超前部署就是說我們現在還是要做好打算特別條例編過之後請注意喔 部長要有一個正確的觀念特別條例編過之後我們是訂一個上限譬如說那個時候易厚振興3800億但不是說3800億你就是一定要用完"},{"start":12794.58,"end":12802.267,"text":"如果說真的我們的景氣恢復之後3800億裡面有一些也是可以不要用但是我們訂個上限3800億那一樣的道理如果說這一次因應美國關稅的調整880億假設880億或說假設到時候院長提出來1500億"},{"start":12811.936,"end":12840.814,"text":"那可能各部會先把需求丟入讓行政院統籌送來到立法院因為正式要三讀通過特別條例也需要差不多兩個月的時間還會經過財政委員會以及各委員大家來做一個審查那但是你如果說現在沒有先掛號沒有先爭取你就沒有你懂我意思嗎對所以這才是為什麼本席關注的是你有講到有產業活不下去你有講到要協助轉型那但是我們的工具跟辦法是什麼"},{"start":12842.05,"end":12871.273,"text":"因為第一個是如果說產業真的活不下去其實經濟部產發署那邊他們是主要負責的那我們這邊是關注於轉型轉型的過程當中他們是不是需要各種綠色轉型的一個協助那這個部分我們也會跟他們一起合作所以掛號的部分也跟委員報告我們的確去掛號但是其實到最後的這個金額多少我們也在等行政院到最後是不是通知我們有沒有那個額度把它放進去當然我們是希望是能夠在這個領域部分能夠多幫一點企業的忙我們在爭取"},{"start":12871.513,"end":12890.568,"text":"因為環境部的預算相對少是所以我才會提到是說如果有一定要大力的爭取才有機會協助我當然知道說企業還是經濟部為主但是我們怎麼樣利用這所謂的綠色的部分來去協助企業轉型這也是我們的契機點對"},{"start":12892.389,"end":12913.782,"text":"來部長那另外跟你請教現在台版的碳邊境調整機制也就是這一個你在報告裡面有特別提到說目前都還在做跨部會的協商4月有協商過一次那現在到底有沒有施行的時程目前我們在等那個歐盟的細則因為目前歐盟的細則還是會讓歐盟先行"},{"start":12915.103,"end":12940.496,"text":"歐盟的因為歐盟是確定這個明年開始要收然後後年2027年2月開始可以去買那個憑證等於是說目前我們是緊盯的歐盟的角度那歐盟也很關心我們會怎麼訂那我們也跟他們報告跟他們討論說我們會跟你們一起走就是說我會參照你們的因為這個會減少各種的這個因為如果我們要訂一個台版的CBAN也是要通報這個WTO等等的所以這個其實是一個很複雜"},{"start":12941.176,"end":12965.912,"text":"因為現在包括說主要出口產業鋼鐵水泥這也是你報告裡面有提到的嘛這一些的業者也好相關的從業人員也都一直在關心我們到底說我們什麼時候會提出來或說是不是有可能有施行的時程以來回推做預作準備而不要變大家措手不及所以從您剛剛的這個回答我是不是可以以來推敲就是說至少是讓歐盟先行我們看歐盟的一個狀況我們再來做後續的一個處理"},{"start":12967.373,"end":12993.491,"text":"歐盟是明年1月1號開始施行那他的辦法應該在暑假的時候七八月的時候細節會有一些公佈那整個大的框架他已經很清楚了所以我們大概會照著他的框架走所以如果說我們明年例如說他今年已經開始試申報了我說不定我們明年開始就可以開始試申報例如說水泥從這個越南進口的水泥他就要必須申報他的碳排係數那我們還會有別的工具例如說"},{"start":12994.031,"end":13015.729,"text":"我們的公共工程建設要求說一定要有碳足跡那這個呢就是會保障我們國內做轉型的水泥業或鋼鐵業有追蹤的機制對我們現在是準備要這樣做好所以說還是要有預告期讓相關業者都有規則可循對一定的最後一個部分抱歉因為您也提到一個綠能人才培育"},{"start":13016.289,"end":13035.986,"text":"量能3500名一年現在施行幾年了現在今年是轉換因為過去像去年環境部大概是一年大概1000人而已培訓那現在我們改變方式跟28個大學合作所以基本上是3500是我們基本的拿到證照的目前有多少位"},{"start":13036.246,"end":13060.945,"text":"目前才剛開始所以現在例如說我們四月開班第一班就16分鐘就秒殺所以目前很快的大概會同步的大概28個大學都會陸續的開課所以我們預計年底今年應該會有3500人對但過去完成培訓的呢過去大概總共加起來沒有本席來部長來你可以回答嗎過去完成培訓的人員有多少位"},{"start":13061.499,"end":13085.653,"text":"部長來之前是環境部自己辦很努力的辦我們去年只有辦一千人部長來了以後改變方式就是結合二十八個大學一起來辦就是把這個量能提升所以我們以後每一年可以提升到三千五百人次不是 你剛講這個話跟部長剛講有什麼我現在會是說完成培訓你不能把部長講的話再重新再講一遍去年一千人"},{"start":13086.113,"end":13104.393,"text":"就一千人一千人好那部長本席提出來方向我已肯定但本席提出來的用意其實是說培訓人數一回事產業有沒有用是一回事這一千人有多少人是投入到產業做相關的這個減碳或者是綠能工作"},{"start":13105.174,"end":13133.048,"text":"有沒有追蹤我們部長來了以後我們今年跟104銀行合作一起做綠領人才的這個就業趨勢報告所以這個今年才開始開始進行所以我們那今年的第一班剛才講3500人這個今年第一班是4月26會開第一班所以這個以後我們會結合104這個調查報告一起把這些弄進去我們才會知道多少會受完訊以後會回到產業"},{"start":13134.068,"end":13158.763,"text":"委員就是說我知道你的問題過去其實上完課我們不知道他的流向啦未來我會管理啦就如同說我們畢業生我們當然希望是說他上了我們的培育課程我們也真的編列預算也真的培養人才了人才要盡其流嘛人才要盡所用嘛所以說是不是真的能夠到這樣的一個相關行業而不是他拿到了證照結果他不是做這樣的工作"},{"start":13159.735,"end":13182.614,"text":"培訓可能就浪費了我們也沒有真正媒合那尤其是我們目前有到底有多少的需求是需要這樣人才的現在在伊尼斯上面有兩萬兩千個工作機會可能年輕人所以如果說照你這樣子的推估其實三千五百位培訓完的應該都可以投入職場而且都是做相關工作嘛所以這也是本席講的有要做後續的追蹤"},{"start":13183.71,"end":13198.26,"text":"讓我們投入的每一筆培訓的預算以及人才都能夠真真正正的進入到相關的行業是可以做後續追蹤可以沒問題好謝謝好謝謝洪文凱委員發言那接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席我們還是麻煩彭部長"},{"start":13219.317,"end":13240.857,"text":"謝謝你剛剛花很多時間讓大家知道目前針對環境部正在執行一些業務尤其是對今天的主題在空屋方面還有在室內品質的方面做了哪一些的努力所以就實務上等一下來跟您請教那第二個題目就是相關於如何能夠研議引導企業資源有效落實到ESG的這個模式"},{"start":13243.098,"end":13269.106,"text":"我想很謝謝部長在上個月底也麻煩您到長庚醫院去考察具體的成果我們可以看到就是持續要麻煩環境部、衛福部跟經濟部等能夠持續精進醫院的節能減碳的政策來協助醫院藉由ESCO等等措施來有效落實節能減碳跟環境永續的目標"},{"start":13270.046,"end":13290.957,"text":"那第二部分就是要麻煩環境部來精進醫院室內空氣品質的標準來研議醫院周邊化射空品維護區的必要性效益這些的這個研議的部分那另外也針對水錯辦法的修正來請貴部輔導醫院落實污水的處理"},{"start":13292.978,"end":13319.732,"text":"當場看到其實長庚體系或長庚林口醫學中心這方面是做了非常進步那也得到部長很多的這些除了當場給予一些建議以外那也知道未來如何能夠協助其他的醫療機構也有類似的改善的措施那這部分因為當天比較匆忙那今天部長還有時間可以再做一點相關的補充嗎針對這個"},{"start":13322.094,"end":13338.772,"text":"結報委員那個我必須說很多的公立醫院相對的誘因沒有像長庚體系這麼的好所以說真的我們也我也鼓勵說長庚醫院是不是他們的行政的可不可以幫很多的其他醫院但是也跟委員報告其實很多的公立醫院他們其實"},{"start":13339.813,"end":13361.574,"text":"很多沒有那麼的積極啦有些部門很積極有些沒有那麼積極我們現在正在想辦法是不是有沒有一些好的方法讓公立醫院部立醫院可能都要積極的做我現在從這個長庚醫院來看的話民間的醫院的量能還有他的動機跟企圖心是真的比公家部門來得積極的這個是我們公部門要檢討的"},{"start":13362.628,"end":13378.555,"text":"好我想大家要共同努力一起來求進步那針對今天的這個討論的主題也要麻煩勞動部跟那個教育部的代表恭喜林玉堂副署長吉祥身份署長"},{"start":13379.395,"end":13396.474,"text":"那另外我們也麻煩那個教育部資格司跟國教署的兩位專門委員包括廖雙茜跟薛承佑專委一起來討論一下從下一張的這個幻燈片我們發現不管是在這個工廠"},{"start":13397.535,"end":13414.063,"text":"工作的場域或者是教育的場域其實不管是周邊的這個空氣品質或者是室內品質真的還是有很多值得我們持續來求精進的地方那這張幻燈片我們可以看得到在工作場域"},{"start":13415.023,"end":13442.822,"text":"目前的數據好像違規到這個有關於工作環境監測實質辦法第七條第一款規定的非常的少這個跟印象的落差其實蠻大的因為我們了解像我們現在市內的CO2是648原則上是希望超過1000嘛所以現在是很合乎規定可是我們不知道為什麼目前可以去查核到的這些違反的場次"},{"start":13443.662,"end":13455.449,"text":"就以工作的這個場域為主來看的話每六個月應該監測二氧化碳濃度一次以上可是這個量似乎跟我們所理解真的是有很大的落差"},{"start":13457.008,"end":13481.197,"text":"那這個對這個保障工作場域的勞工的健康其實是有一些影響那這部分不知道未來勞動部指南署這邊有沒有更好的方式去架設一個平台讓大家符合規範符合要求的這些廠家能夠據實的來呈報他們監測的成果這部分不知道目前的執行狀況如何是 各位報告"},{"start":13483.178,"end":13507.412,"text":"在委員秀這張圖裡面,它基本上是依據職業安全服務法那它的部分的話,它這個剛剛提到這個違規的事項基本上它是來自於一般辦公場所裡面的這個設有空調中央空調裡面的這個二氧化碳的一個剛剛委員提到六個月要測一次那這個違反事項就是我們去勞檢的時候發現"},{"start":13509.918,"end":13526.117,"text":"這個僱主沒有每六個月測一次是這個部分那至於這個實務上測的結果大概都是維持在700到800之間並不會一般辦公場所如果他沒有使用到其他的化學物質基本上都是在1000以下"},{"start":13527.307,"end":13549.773,"text":"所以能不能請他們能夠主動的把這些監測到的相關的數值通報到你們的單位或者是相關的單位一起來掌握到他們是不是有除了有一些違規的內涵以外那實際上到底他的這些空氣品質在室內是如何有辦法維持的"},{"start":13550.513,"end":13575.003,"text":"至少是要合乎到規定那除了二氧化碳以外其實像鉛、丙酮、甲烷那些更對勞工或者是影響更明顯的這個當然他需要長期監測才有辦法知道對於勞工的這個健康的影響那這部分如果能夠有一個主動通報的機制我們建立大數據的話將來處理起來也更能夠發揮他的效果這部分"},{"start":13576.264,"end":13588.544,"text":"將來是不是有機會請這個勞動部跟環境部共同來研擬看看這樣的平台的設置那如果這個平台的話未來我們是不是能夠也把這個訊息揭露給公眾能夠做具體的參考"},{"start":13591.146,"end":13616.394,"text":"報告委員因為過去是例如說早一天去做檢測那當然那個就要花一整天的時間那未來現在的像我們現在這個會議是這樣的數據其實如果經過環境部認可之後有可能就像委員這樣的數字能夠出來讓大家及時的知道但是這個我們會再研究一下如果準確性還有他的網路上可以弄得到的話我們很樂觀啟程有這樣的方式來推動"},{"start":13618.085,"end":13642.67,"text":"好那就麻煩兩個單位來演繹看看那再過來就是要有關這個校園周邊的部分我們也知道校園周邊空屋的管制很需要也很重要因為這牽扯到學童的健康還有他未來的成長那我們也知道全國172間的學校跟違規工廠相距其實不到500公尺這個是真的很希望能夠有效去改善那再參考"},{"start":13644.19,"end":13673.107,"text":"尤其是這個歐洲的國家他們針對於局部地區尤其在學校附近都有很好的一些方式在處理法國、荷蘭、英國等等他們很希望能夠提供及時的、空瓶的這些建設那如果是像瑞典的話他們還希望能夠有一個培訓的一些作為那還有部分的北歐國家設立綠色學校帶來包括植栽隔離、測量限速進行等"},{"start":13674.428,"end":13688.668,"text":"這個部分不知道教育部相關單位有沒有一些機制正在做這方面的精進跟我們報告一下就是我們教育部就是我們會跟環境部來做密切合作"},{"start":13689.088,"end":13706.249,"text":"我們現在就是依據環境部他的空氣室內空氣污染的一個指引的一個做法在我們第一個首先會非常重視那個源頭管理等到源頭管理的話就是源頭管制就是跟環境部就是說能夠請環境部能夠跟地方要求說"},{"start":13707.55,"end":13733.892,"text":"加強了稽查是不是有空污的一些污染源那把這部分給做好管制那第二個部分就是我們有一個新風換氣系統新風換氣系統這邊國教所等也可以來補充一下就是部裡會來針對這些學校來做相關的一些是不是評估之後是不是需要來裝設這些新風換氣系統來保障學童的一個呼吸權這樣子"},{"start":13737.914,"end":13761.303,"text":"那因為那個是室內嘛那這個如果室外的空氣比如說前幾天其實這個空汙影響非常嚴重那學校有沒有辦法及時知道這些空氣品質在這個授課教學過程當中就能夠及時的去幫助學校或者是引導學生做哪一些環境上的適應我們也知道比如說現在台灣夏天非常熱"},{"start":13762.683,"end":13779.793,"text":"所以呢為了怕這個高溫引起重休課或等等的措施就會有一些警示存在所以這部分學校有沒有機會跟環境部這邊有一個共同的方式來處理這個我們跟環境部有那個有一個受體"},{"start":13781.194,"end":13798.325,"text":"檢測的一個系統但是每小時會更新在我們部裡跟地方政府的教育局也都在這個群組裡面如果說突然有一些空氣惡化的一個狀況的話我們也會及時的通報地方教育局地方教育局他會透過校安系統來跟學校"},{"start":13799.565,"end":13821.673,"text":"對即時來通知他們比如說要採取相關的一些因應防護作為比如說門窗緊閉或是相關的一些比如說怎麼樣學童在回去的時候可能比如說戴口罩來保護他自己的一個身體健康這部分我們都有去提醒學校那相關的SOP我們部裡也有訂相關的一個規定來保障這些學生"},{"start":13822.153,"end":13848.399,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝大家的用心不過委員這個我會來精進一下因為這個的確我們台灣還有進步的空間啦我們會跟教育部一起來再來合作再來提出一個新的對策OK 好 謝謝那現在我們部長還有教育部這邊那另外最後一個相關環境部如果能夠有效的引導企業資源來落實這個永續經營的永續發展的部分我們也知道不管是"},{"start":13849.739,"end":13873.405,"text":"過去的CSR ESG到未來的SDG大型企業跟上市會公司其實都希望能夠對社會有更多的這些協助那這一部分這邊幾個例子我想部長也應該清楚就是有關的海委會針對這些需求他們成立了一個海洋保育ESG的媒合平台"},{"start":13874.225,"end":13894.591,"text":"在這個平台裡面企業端就可以從很多個這個海洋保育聯合項目裡面找到適合的合作機會然後民間團體還有地方政府就可以把這些他們的需求提到相關的企業讓他們去尋求合作夥伴那這是才今年在二月初的時候成立的"},{"start":13895.331,"end":13920.099,"text":"那現在是4月嘛那經過這些努力他們就發現從原來大家很喜歡做淨灘的活動呢開始改變他們如何處理這些海廢物的這些可能造成的影響那這個平台兩個多月以來其實已經初步媒合21個團體28個案正在做執行或者是已經完成了企劃"},{"start":13921.019,"end":13944.314,"text":"那相信這個對於證交所所屬的公司的治理評鑑來講他們就找到一個很好的接入口能夠讓剛剛講過的大型企業或者是相關的這些資源可以投入到這邊來所以他們一定海洋淨好生物保育棲地守護海洋素養等等的跟海洋相關的這些內容都可以處理進來"},{"start":13945.575,"end":13962.903,"text":"我想這是一個很好的一個模式那可是環境部所張力的更多不管是空氣啦廢水啊或者是等等的廢毒等等那這部分不知道部長你有沒有這方面的一些企劃或者是想法"},{"start":13964.254,"end":13980.775,"text":"因為環境部過去環保署通常我們是一個管制單位所以其實都跟會有點緊張的關係就是說我們要罰人家處罰人家制定標準那我們最近其實改變幅度蠻大的例如說我們在其實他這個業局是創造一個平台媒合的平台"},{"start":13981.215,"end":14009.514,"text":"那我們呢是實際上去做例如說重規司他就淨零綠生活十一住行娛樂那種大聯盟已經把企業都全部扣進來已經有一百四十幾家企業那氣候署也有我們每個私署如果跟產業有溝通了就想要公私協力一起來完成某一些事就是說把公部門的預算槓桿到民間一起來參與所以其實我們也有做但是他們是支援一個平台來媒合撮合我們就直接去做一些事情公私協力來完成政府的淨零所以一點點不一樣"},{"start":14010.775,"end":14039.062,"text":"我是覺得等到過一段時間成果之後再跟委員報告哪一個效果好如果他們這個好的話我們也願意來學習啦好啊 非常期待因為我們上次也去看過紀錄片種土那也感受到台灣真的很需要大家共同來守護我們的有了健康的國土就有健康的國民當然就會有健康的台灣大家一起努力謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝王振旭委員發言那接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":14058.019,"end":14065.624,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長有請彭部長周委員好部長好"},{"start":14067.254,"end":14094.768,"text":"根據環境影響評估法前面一條的第五條就是開發行為對環境有不良影響質疑就要進行環境影響評估而這個環境影響評估法第五條所列舉的總共有十項當然第十一項是其他中央主管機關所核定的"},{"start":14095.796,"end":14119.339,"text":"那光這十項來講,基本上所有的進行都會涉及到什麼呢?就會涉及到原住民族基本法第21條政府或私人以原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地從事土地開發、資源利用"},{"start":14120.04,"end":14128.854,"text":"生態保育及學術研究因諮商並起的援助民族或部落同意或參與所以這個部分"},{"start":14129.915,"end":14158.262,"text":"就是就會涉及到這個到底要先進行這個原住民族基本法第21條的規定先經過部落諮商同意還是直接就先進行環境影響評估然後又有第一階段又有第二階段對不對這樣的一個會有這個到底誰先誰後"},{"start":14159.517,"end":14173.525,"text":"然後對原住民族而言哪個有利或是對業者而言哪一個有利因為要進行環境影響評估不管是第一階段或是第二階段"},{"start":14174.926,"end":14195.671,"text":"都要花不少的費用吧要吧報告委員原住民的法跟環評法是兩個平行的我們這邊是環境的把關所以如果是涉及到原住民的那我們就會請原住民相關的單位一起來審這個案子所以這個是我們還是最終的環評保護環境品質保護的這個部長不太一樣因為你這個請"},{"start":14202.898,"end":14230.18,"text":"原住民相關的機關 譬如說延民會去參加這個環境影響評估的會議他不能代表那個部落對 不能代表那個部落所以這個是不一樣的 那個只是一個相關的機關去參與而已所以這個部分 我個人的建議啦我個人的建議 就是說"},{"start":14232.589,"end":14258.551,"text":"這個業者你可以通告說業者是不是你要先經過部落的同意如果涉及到部落的部分不要到時候第一階段完成了第二階段也完成了結果後來部落不同意對不對那對業者是非常不利啊所以這個然後這個環境影響評估的期間第一階段第二階段部落就一直很擔心啊"},{"start":14260.311,"end":14289.4,"text":"所以這個部分是一個兩方面怎麼去共同的去處理如果能夠先進行原住民部落的諮商同意不是沒有這種案例喔對我就講這個蘇花安交通部的蘇花安蘇花公路有一段有三段要改為它名稱叫蘇花安蘇花改都已經完成了那另外蘇花安"},{"start":14291.041,"end":14298.591,"text":"在最後一次的環評大會之前呢所有的部落的諮商統一都已經完成了"},{"start":14300.487,"end":14326.653,"text":"所以這個部分其實是可以這樣子去進行的部長你認同嗎我非常認同因為任何的開發單位一定要跟當地的住民例如說原住民做好細部的溝通他們送進環評到我那邊我們來審核才有機會會比較容易過關因為任何的單位其實都可以來旁聽也可以來發言這是環評的制度所以我們都有考慮到這個系統所以例如說我舉例像台東"},{"start":14327.853,"end":14345.904,"text":"這陣子說要蓋陸域風機其實我相信當地的原住民就感受到這樣的東西我們也聽到了也看到了所以我們也表態了這個有關提到這個東海岸的風電的部分確實以這樣的一個密密碼碼"},{"start":14349.247,"end":14362.14,"text":"25個還不包含那個大武啊達了那個海岸喔那個如果包含的話就更多囉所以整個東海岸就是這樣所以這個部分第一個鄉公所反對"},{"start":14365.031,"end":14382.247,"text":"長濱鄉公所已經表達反對成功鎮公所表達反對當地的人民表達反對台東縣政府也表達反對所以最近都被質詢除了你被質詢之外還有經濟部經濟部長直接就說如果地方政府反對"},{"start":14384.141,"end":14393.724,"text":"我就不同意是那就還要不要進行所以這個部分的乾脆就所以你們跟內政經濟部跟環境部這邊要讓這個要讓這個業者知道啊啊"},{"start":14400.29,"end":14429.021,"text":"尤其是經濟部長說他親口在立法院說的台中憲政我反對他就不同意那就還要不要進行不要浪費任何的環境影響那個開發他如果是在地的居民有很嚴重的反對其實要過的機會環評委員都會縱觀所有的那我們最近看到很多陸域封建的案例都是附近的民眾的反對地方的反對沒有辦法過的所以這個是最重要要聽民意是最重要的所以我的意思說這個相關的這些意見"},{"start":14430.221,"end":14447.532,"text":"也請這個因為法案沒有明訂所以就請這個環境部因為現在目前是這個案是在你們在公告嘛對還沒有送進來完全沒有送進來是開發單位自己在準備當中對對對所以你們要把這些意見"},{"start":14448.913,"end":14468.649,"text":"給他們因為我們一般相關的這些意見我們沒有管到給他們所以你們可以給他們現在我們因為有大量幾千則的意見在我們環境部的公開網站留言所以我們都會給開發單位他們會知道會處理但是沒有的就是在立法院經濟部長親自"},{"start":14470.39,"end":14483.694,"text":"回應說地方政府不同意他就反就不會不會轉那個也要讓他們知道啊是他們我相信他們比我們更清楚我不知道好謝謝好謝謝曾天才委員發言那接下來請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那有請環境部部長謝謝有請彭部長"},{"start":14500.65,"end":14520.438,"text":"陳委員好部長你好部長在上一次3月17號一樣是跟您質詢我們討論到關於兒少式空氣污染的高風險族群也相對敏感那當時我就有拜託您說需要政府提出更多的保護措施同時我們也希望有跨部會的工作小組"},{"start":14521.178,"end":14543.842,"text":"那您的承諾呢讓我們辦公室非常順利的在4月9號我們已經邀請了環境部教育部衛福部還有專家學者一併召開內部的討論會議喔那這個討論會議上我們其實討論到非常多比較仔細的事情那也很感謝環境部的同仁在當天有一些很具體的共識讓我們後續在很多政策的推動上可以往下走"},{"start":14544.242,"end":14554.232,"text":"第一個跟部長分享一下第一個是我們談到關於工業區周邊學校的劃設這件事情因為目前呢在我們所謂空氣品質維護區現在目前現行有91個空維區那9個在工業區10個在學校"},{"start":14560.558,"end":14580.748,"text":"其他91個扣掉10個再扣掉9個其他都不在空污重災區這個我們日後再討論但是只有10個在學校這件事情呢我們也可以理解可能對於地方縣市政府來說他們的認定跟你們的認定標準不一樣或是他們的認定跟很多專家學者認為孩童是高風險高敏感這件事情的認知不一樣"},{"start":14581.508,"end":14596.381,"text":"但有沒有機會我們多多增加工業區周遭學校的畫社這件事情可不可以讓環境部積極的跟地方政府來討論到底是在畫社上有什麼困難還是跟社區溝通有什麼困難部長你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":14596.721,"end":14611.636,"text":"好謝謝委員能夠對這個議題主動來找我們第一個是我非常贊同委員的看法但是這個設定其實執行上是地方沒錯所以我們會可能要增加溝通的頻率然後一些方案讓他們願意來做所以這個部分我們會來積極來推動這個事情"},{"start":14614.158,"end":14631.154,"text":"好 那我們這邊其實也提出一個還蠻具體的建議因為地方上目前都在規劃通學步道這是為了確保孩子們行的安全如果要跟地方政府溝通他們覺得在這個議題上有困難其實我們比較具體的建議可以先結合地方政府的通學步道這件事情去想像"},{"start":14631.574,"end":14651.322,"text":"也許他們就比較可以理解到底這件事情可以怎麼做那我想具體的方向我們比較希望環境部真的可以主動的形容地方政府問一下他們相關的進度或者是有什麼困難跟問題需要你們積極的討論或者是找協助專家學者來協助這個部分就拜託你們再進一步考量那也謝謝部長剛剛非常正向的回應"},{"start":14652.142,"end":14678.465,"text":"第二個是關於控務法第85條我們談到違規如果對學校有影響的要從重處罰當時的從重的罰款是說加重0.1到0.5倍可是我們卻掉了這兩年的裁罰紀錄是零沒有從學校通報這邊來的那當時的困難我們聽到大氣司很明白告訴我們因為這個檢舉的主體必須是學校才會納入有所謂的學校受到影響"},{"start":14679.306,"end":14705.726,"text":"可是部長你可以想像一個情境假設我們現在立法院這邊是一所學校我們旁邊的工廠失火了然後有這個空瓶的問題老師們第一時間做的應該是疏散孩子或者是尋求相關的幫助或是請家長趕快把孩子們帶回老師們想的第一件事一定不是打去環保局檢舉對不對可能是周邊的居民才有想到要去檢舉那如果學校沒有打這種檢舉電話對於地方的環保局他們的認定就是學校沒有受到影響"},{"start":14706.667,"end":14717.449,"text":"那我不會說這是公務人員的問題我會說這是現行法規規範的問題導致於學校如果沒有打這一通電話我們就不會認定學校的空品有受到影響"},{"start":14718.84,"end":14738.978,"text":"這件事情我認為其實我們可以透過條文的改善跟調整讓這件事情其實可以促成那但是我們並不是為了要處罰廠商而去做這件事情是我們希望在積極保護而上呼吸品質這件事情上我們有更積極的作為部長你覺得我這個建議我們可不可以往這邊去努力"},{"start":14740.739,"end":14754.853,"text":"其實我們現在是針對即興的事件例如說隔壁失火會不會往我們這邊飄我們有一個預警的機制是通知學校當然委員提的建議很好未來是不是我們這個預警的機制順道"},{"start":14755.413,"end":14769.829,"text":"如果通過學校的話加重裁罰我們可以來研議這個事情就是空腹法的部分修正是不是重重甚至剛剛委員說的這個處罰的比例飄到學校是不夠太輕的零點幾倍所以我們是不是再加重我們可以考慮"},{"start":14770.87,"end":14797.416,"text":"加重的部分我其实现在还在讨论还在研究但是我觉得你刚刚讲就是如果它确实已经造成学校影响可是我们真的不必要要学校打一通电话才算数的话我们往这里演绎真的是好的方向谢谢部长那至于这些裁罚的金额也就是所谓的这个基金目前它的裁罚用途目前并没有放在所谓学校空瓶改善学童紧急保护疏散医药的部分有没有机会往这里去讨论跟演绎"},{"start":14798.116,"end":14815.589,"text":"因為目前那個財劃法裡面這種罰款是到地方政府所以這個就變成地方政府願不願意給學校沒關係我當然知道是地方政府所以我們也許來想一想怎麼跟地方政府溝通站在積極保護兒少學校空品這件事情上我們可以更有作為"},{"start":14816.67,"end":14842.706,"text":"好 那接下來關於談到所謂有害空氣污染的部分目前它的監測數字雖然都有上網公開可是說實話那個公開的資料它其實是比較適合科學家閱讀就算很多科學家認為那個都已經簡化過了精簡過了但是對於很多住民來說其實不方便閱讀而且資料也不及時它對於一般人來說是沒有可靜性的那我們甚至也認為其實相關的資料如果有兒少版就更好了"},{"start":14843.126,"end":14871.3,"text":"也就是兒少版跟一般人的閱讀版而不是現在我們認為已經科普化的版本那當時在跨部會的會議在我們辦公室召開那個內部的會議討論上我們很感謝大旗死友說會回去研議這件事情那我想這邊部長是不是也可以給我們一個承諾我們如何把這個資料可以更親民然後甚至有兒少版那孩子知道說今天我可不可以出去打球今天我可不可以出去運動這個空品是不是適合我出去做戶外活動的"},{"start":14871.98,"end":14894.786,"text":"好 這個我們來研議一下因為其實我也看環境部的網站並沒有針對小朋友的研究啦但是我們跟小朋友相關的那這個我們會來研究整個針對這個族群再提供一些服務出來那另外一個呢是我們會研議這個環境地圖把這個污染數據把它視覺化那委員講的能不能容易懂那不是學科學的也可以懂這個我們會來努力"},{"start":14895.086,"end":14913.98,"text":"好那包含還有耳哨的部分喔好那最後再講一下我們當天還有提到目前這個有害空氣污染的部分只有其中有管道排放標準而不是空氣中的標準其實很難呈現可是我們那天在討論的時候其實就有人提到應該可以呈現每一根管道歷年來有沒有改善的數字比較這個有機會帶回去研議嗎"},{"start":14917.122,"end":14939.321,"text":"好 這個我們回去研究一下因為不知道他這個數據存在 應該是沒有問題好 沒關係就回去研議那我們辦公室目前規劃是在6月或7月希望可以召開第二次像這樣子的內部討論會議所以我們今天才這麼積極提出很多問題那有一些有進展 有一些進展還需要一些時間我也希望在這之前我們希望有這些相關進度的報告 好不好"},{"start":14940.482,"end":14959.416,"text":"謝謝委員主席再給我一分鐘就好要講到綠領人才的部分綠領工作我知道部長你之前有去參加一個跟104人力銀行合作提出綠領人才就業趨勢報告那我們也成立了近鄰綠領人才培育聯盟這個培育課程我目前給予高度的肯定可是我們來看一下我們跟國際趨勢的對接在聯合國國際勞工"},{"start":14962.739,"end":14987.408,"text":"组织里面我们把保护生态系统视为是一个绿领工作很重要的内容跟定义可是在我们台湾的环境部培育课程里面其实没有提到这件事情那当然我知道很多环境部过往的同仁可能会认为生态这件事情是农业部的事情可是我刚要说目前在国际的趋势如果是这样台湾如果忽略了生态其实是非常可惜的"},{"start":14987.768,"end":15008.361,"text":"那尤其這幾年很多企業都在談ESG有人也開始談TNFD也就是自然相關財務揭露甚至生物多樣性也已經被永續評比機構納為評分項目我認為台灣在這件事情上不應該沒有這個進度跟相關的討論可不可以有機會在兩個月內給我們相關的規劃報告還是部長您認為我們剛剛所說的生態這個部分不應該納入我們國內的綠領人才規劃內容"},{"start":15015.746,"end":15042.178,"text":"包委員生態是我們有納入我們兩萬兩千人裡面是有生態的項目在裡面但是我知道這個領域真的在快速發展當中所以我們有請我們同仁是不是找生態的人因為我們這48小時是Basic的能夠額外Plus上去所以例如說12或是24小時加值的一個課程所以這個部分我們希望未來等到這個第一班開完之後後面到下半年能不能把別的Plus像生態這種把它加進來變成一個額外的課程"},{"start":15043.439,"end":15053.487,"text":"那我目前規劃兩個月內給我們相關的報告是可行的嗎?沒問題 謝謝委員謝謝部長 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培宇委員的發言那接下來請張綺凱委員發言"},{"start":15071.067,"end":15085.843,"text":"請請彭部長還有這個勞動部職業安全衛生署的林益棠林副署長林副署長委員好保齡很高興剛才聽到你說你說台東那個美麗的海岸線不會被破壞啦"},{"start":15087.566,"end":15112.571,"text":"生態環境優先嘛對不對我剛才聽到一句話我覺得要肯定你說啊如果當地的居民強烈反對的這要傾聽民意要重視就不會成嘛所以我今天一方面肯定就是說台東這個美麗的海岸沒有被破壞的不只環境部部長已經明確講了經濟部部長也說他不會允許這個開發我們今天應該可以可以公佈啦跟台東的這個民眾跟全團民眾講這個"},{"start":15115.114,"end":15136.492,"text":"台東這個海岸線的這個路上風機應該乘的機率是很低的這是個好消息第一我跟他進一步問你剛講說要傾聽民意啊我經常要問你這個基隆市街嘛對不對我也希望你多傾聽那邊的民意好不好多去注意那邊一方面是生態跟它的這個環境如果它有污染那天我們有共識了嘛盡快去改善它好不好"},{"start":15137.413,"end":15165.503,"text":"包委那個我們3月26號已經派人去查了我們用這個介紹戒避者保護法我組成一個團隊我希望大概月底或是5月初有一個報告再給委員參考已經去查了已經去查了已經率隊去台電裡面查了現在要等一段時間因為我們已經要求台電提供相關的資料了如果他有隱密的話我相信因為目前我知道已經檢調也在查了所以如果檢調如果有會跟我們要資料我們會提供給檢調那如果我們有結果也會再跟委員報告"},{"start":15166.581,"end":15193.97,"text":"第一個盡快啦第一個絕對不允許在汙染的地方更重要的不要汙染造成當地民眾的傷害戴奧欽那個致癌的嘛好不好一定要做到這裡第二個當地居民為什麼那麼反對世界不是不能討論喔是他們反映很多意見嘛譬如說現在的郵輪台灣郵輪都是從吉隆港進來對不對你現在放了那個世界天然氣存儲在那邊會不會影響到他們其實大家知道嘛以前台灣每次有發生戰爭"},{"start":15195.558,"end":15204.547,"text":"都是從基隆港登陸的所以當地民眾有這聲音,你剛提的很好請聽民意,好不好請您副署長副署長恭喜聽說你下禮拜就要升任署長了先恭喜你不過,任重道遠我先來問一個很重要的事情很多地方政府"},{"start":15220.011,"end":15226.954,"text":"都在埋怨一件事這可能也是你上任應該馬上解決的就是這個勞檢嚴從2016年開始他們就在哀怨說快過勞快過勞了結果到現在為止勞動部還在說他們要做一些改善要支持什麼草案做一些9任的獎金的留任他的根本問題出在這個地方"},{"start":15246.348,"end":15269.245,"text":"副所長 你知道你們屬於跟你們勞動部給這個勞檢員訂的那個一年的KPI是多少跟委員報告 我們這個KPI基本上是因為我們是補助地方政府去聘用勞動條件檢查員所以就會有所謂的工作量所以大概我們現在一年的工作量勞檢的話是200場次"},{"start":15273.24,"end":15292.752,"text":"你這樣賣頂到先我管這個等一下我會進一步跟你講這個連監察院都提出檢討報告要你們改你到現在沒有改一天你上班公務員一天上班幾天扣掉休假日結果你平均一年的KPI你現在要檢查200件耶這怎麼做得來呢這幾乎天天都在勞檢耶對不對"},{"start":15302.759,"end":15327.646,"text":"這太高了啦我來給你看現在地方政府反應是兩個你定了這個勞檢勞檢員的KPI這麼高勞檢員就是去檢查人家有沒有問題的啊結果你本身又過勞這不是很碰刺嗎這是第一個點那現在老實講現在因為我們人口在減少嘛很多地方又是用那個遠距的有沒有你很多地方應該可以做一個修正了那另外"},{"start":15329.301,"end":15351.819,"text":"我是很希望你們趕快去檢討這個KPI要怎麼講我給你看一個齁這不是只有地方的這個政府在反應監察院啊來你看一下 我給你看監察院的調查監察院的調查啊 他說每一個案子啊每一個案子你要去檢查 你要做什麼事情第一個 你要先看他的出勤的紀錄比對薪資的這個情勢 這個第一"},{"start":15354.639,"end":15366.641,"text":"第二,你要跟僱主說明相關的法規第三,你要撰寫檢討報告的通知第四,你可能要開裁處書至少要長達一個月以上一個案子出去勞檢平均條約20小時這個你比較清楚嘛,對不對你訂200,一個案子出去20個小時監察已經調查了叫你們改"},{"start":15382.931,"end":15385.001,"text":"所以你下禮拜上陣以後"},{"start":15386.024,"end":15411.217,"text":"列地要認趕快把它做一個檢討做一個處理好不好謝謝委員關心這個我們第一線勞動檢查員的辛勞確實那這個部分我們其實持續在做一些不管是在工具面或是說剛剛講的廠市面怎麼去換算因為並不一定說每一位這個200廠市一定是勞檢有時候我們在做一些仿試的話也會把它記為工作量這個我們就陸續在做一些優化跟精進謝謝委員關心"},{"start":15413.298,"end":15430.851,"text":"監察院調查完之後他是有明確要你做一些改正的啦他明明確確的你看以後你單列的這個時數啊你會增加的工作量太大嘛所以他有時候你看一個月的那個工作時間加班數超過50點鐘超過50個小時甚至各個機關加班費有時候規定只能給20那你就違規啊對不對"},{"start":15439.673,"end":15459.084,"text":"你是強人所難啊 你導致你的這個你自己的勞工 自己的員工過勞嘛 那又違反規定嘛欸 勞動部去年底那個霸凌案啊引起很大的仙人大波 到現在都還沒有完全解決勞動部是很多人工作時間是過場的"},{"start":15461.752,"end":15484.224,"text":"不是只有勞檢員 要整體去檢討 特別去年這個事情一定要引以為戒不要霸凌自己的員工 好不好 不要讓他們工作時間太長後來檢察官不是也進去調你們所有加班的時數嗎 打卡的 對不對這事情到現在還在查啊 勞檢員你在地方你又害了他們不只是工作時間這麼長 連加班時數都明定啦你就20個小時 結果你給了50個小時 這就違規了嘛"},{"start":15487.606,"end":15511.597,"text":"所以那時候監察院明確要求你們說你要嘛用什麼方式減少他們這個工作量這樣他可以做得更好啊不然你就增加人力嘛對不對另外一個他提那你對於他們的這個對於他們這個加班的這個方式啊你要有一個核實的一個專案加班最重要的事情嘛到現在都沒做啊來我具體來我現在今天具體的做三個要求好第一個"},{"start":15515.868,"end":15518.5,"text":"我請你中央啊 要去了解整個地方勞檢的這個狀況"},{"start":15521.15,"end":15545.385,"text":"你長久都在做這個事情嘛 對不對 副署長接著署長以後更要做你現在要很完整的 深刻的去了解地方整個勞檢這個狀況然後作為你後續編預算的這個參考為什麼要這樣做因為每年預算都在滾動嘛對不對 都在滾動嘛然後請勞動部你統計出來今年十月底跟去年一整年的"},{"start":15546.417,"end":15574.587,"text":"整個那個腦檢的那個狀況跟那個件數好不好好你這個提出來這個一個禮拜給我可以嗎你是不是再給我們一段時間一個禮拜上任那一個月啦好 謝謝一個月給我一個月給我這個資料這個就是OK然後第二個請你趕快提出一個具體的一個改善方案就是說這個KPI真的一年200件真的太多了去檢討一下甚至很多人都建議啊降到150 100多都合理啦"},{"start":15576.007,"end":15595.759,"text":"檢討一下這個要你在這個一個月內好不好檢討完以後給我一個報告不要再造成那個地方的這些工作人員真的是太辛苦了第三個請你們要提出新的工作分配改善方式包括你這個補助型計畫業務越來越偏低然後你要求地方這個勞檢員做了一堆那個他們現在不是只有勞檢的問題"},{"start":15597.13,"end":15618.86,"text":"你看他們還碰到一堆什麼不是勞檢類型的分類工作你還掉進去辦什麼說明會整堆的你整個都要納進去好不好整體做一個盤整好不好本席今天非常具體的三個要求那恭喜你下禮拜上任請把他列為第一要任好不好那一個月內給我一個檢討的這個方針跟改變跟改善好不好沒問題謝謝"},{"start":15621.448,"end":15647.54,"text":"好 謝謝張祺凱委員的發言那徐姓委員改書面質詢那葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員然後王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員何新淳委員 何新淳委員 何新淳委員那接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":15654.619,"end":15682.72,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席請一下彭部長有請彭部長姚委員好 部長好部長 全世界大概有超過200個國家共同簽署了巴黎氣候協定那從2016年就生效了目標是在2100年前可以將全球均溫控制在上升幅度大概1.5"},{"start":15684.361,"end":15712.427,"text":"五度那協議中也也有承諾就是很重要的一個氣候融資因為這是一個全球性的問題所以可能有一些比較比較貧窮的國家必須要有融資的問題才可以協助貧窮國家適應氣候變遷並且讓他轉向使用再生能源那美國"},{"start":15714.782,"end":15734.998,"text":"這個算是第二次退出巴黎氣候協定我想要請問一下部長因為他第一次是因為協定的規定所以他2017年就宣布2020年才正式退出第一次退出的時候對於我國"},{"start":15736.124,"end":15759.364,"text":"有沒有產生什麼影響報告委員那個時候其實減碳還正式準備要啟動當中所以我們那時候其實減碳也才剛要開始大概都是平的沒有什麼減碳的成果所以現在全世界要減碳大概都是過去這五年當中減得特別有效果那也就是說第二次現在退出"},{"start":15760.02,"end":15765.845,"text":"宣布退出什麼時候生效明年一月生效明年一月就生效明年一月生效"},{"start":15769.005,"end":15798.177,"text":"看起來是會不會對我們環境部推動淨零碳排的政策會有什麼阻力報告委員因為政府是對一個大的方針它會不會對全球有影響一定會有影響但是其實我們減碳其實也要看供應鏈例如說我會看蘋果或是我們的伺服器的組裝它會不會那些大廠影響到它減碳的目標那目前雖然聯邦政府美國聯邦政府有改了可是下面基本上"},{"start":15798.737,"end":15815.616,"text":"沒有一個地方改而且很多的州他還是維持原有的建立目標所以目前我們一直在觀察當中這個影響會有多大而且全世界還沒有一個國家說我要調整我的目標所以目前我們還是審慎樂觀啦就是就是我我我我"},{"start":15817.057,"end":15831.088,"text":"我覺得部長這樣子的回答好像還蠻正確的,就是說全球性的一個方向在走,美國縱使退出也不大會影響,是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":15833.79,"end":15857.846,"text":"因為美國大概佔了現在大概20幾%左右的排碳量那當然最大的是中國那當然啦中國的減碳會不會受到美國的這個影響整個貿易壁壘的影響這個還有待觀察但是這個我們就是一直在關切例如說綠色產業例如說綠能或是汽油科技的供應鏈會不會斷鏈這個是我們最關心的如果被斷鏈那減碳真的會有影響對我"},{"start":15861.179,"end":15869.729,"text":"對 就這樣子問好了就是說會不會減少因為供應鏈的問題嘛那美國退出了會不會減少企業投資減碳技術的誘因"},{"start":15872.927,"end":15895.77,"text":"那環境部這邊怎麼確保台灣的綠色轉型進程會可以導致因為美國的這個他們的銀行的確最近有退出整個國際的淨領的金融的相關的機構沒有再倡議了美國幾個大銀行因為他們要表態這個會影響到全球部分的綠色投資的資金的位移"},{"start":15896.311,"end":15925.539,"text":"我們一直在關注那我們台灣目前呢其實整個趨勢因為我們台灣要賣東西不是只有美國還有別的地方所以基本上我們到目前為止我們也主動的訪問很多金融機構等等大家當然大家都在看大家都在等但是我目前的共識是我們現在暫時不用改變但是如果真的全世界做出一些改變我們一定會滾動式的調整也就是說我們必須要先做好做好一切的準備對我們在準備當中那我問一下就是"},{"start":15926.879,"end":15948.249,"text":"因為還是會有一些產業受到衝擊對不對那碳費會不會緩增報告委因為目前碳費真的說得很少啦我舉例像中鋼一年3600億的營業額如果按照我們估計它碳費大概只要繳3億多所以1%這個會不會痛當然1%是痛啦"},{"start":15951.95,"end":15966.216,"text":"還OK啦這個全世界大概都會收到4、5%以上的幅度啦那所以目前會有一點點壓力但是就又不要給大家馬上變成負債的一個結果這個是我們的期待啦"},{"start":15967.409,"end":15995.04,"text":"所以我們會不會延長徵收碳費的輔導期目前我們第一個是說碳費的時間不會變這個目前這是我們的態度那第二個是不是在某方面的今年1月要開始算是算明年5月31號繳所以現在不是現在要從企業身上拿錢出來是明年5月31號所以我們還有很充裕的時間做出最好的判斷"},{"start":15996.906,"end":16023.197,"text":"因為歐盟的碳冰箭的調整機制也有可能會延後一年實施鵝豹圍沒有延後它還是明年1月1號開始實施但是是2027年就後年2月開始去買憑證就有點像是我們今年開始做明年要繳錢一樣所以它並不是延後沒有延後沒有延後"},{"start":16028.305,"end":16053.534,"text":"我最後問一個問題就是我們室內空氣品質的品質管理法大概從2011年就公布了大概有1600處是環境部公告的室內空品納管場所"},{"start":16055.423,"end":16064.809,"text":"我這邊有環境部所提的資料是近兩年來違反的裁罰數字零這個是因為大家做得好還是我們檢查裁罰的人力的問題"},{"start":16069.704,"end":16088.696,"text":"其實最主要以前的裁罰幾件大概都是沒有涉專責人員像最近那個拉拉破南港那個他就是剛成立沒有涉專責人員所以理論上他可能就會被裁罰了所以類似這樣的東西是比較多但是因為我們通常檢測我們也在跟同事講到有沒有辦法"},{"start":16089.797,"end":16106.868,"text":"檢討一下檢測的方法因為目前檢測是會有請這個外面的顧問公司去檢那通常有時候第一次檢不過可能第二次準備好了就檢過了所以這個我們也在思考說有沒有更好的方法有沒有自動連續的儀器來去做取代現在的神功因為那個要兩三萬塊啦"},{"start":16108.369,"end":16133.927,"text":"對當然法律立法的目的不在裁罰啦可是呢可是假如說假如說是真的不應該裁罰所以沒有裁罰這個是好的可是假如是因為其他我們的人力或者是其他的種種因素沒有裁罰這個說一個法已經公布了近兩年裁罰數是零這個還蠻"},{"start":16136.449,"end":16146.88,"text":"還蠻值得討論看看問題到底在哪裡的其實目前到現在為止49件啦那至於說其實113年也有3件啦那去年是應該是"},{"start":16148.123,"end":16170.913,"text":"去年三件,前年是一件,還是有,一個加起來是五萬塊其實他的罰則沒有很重,我們會來再檢討一下反正我還是要講只有法律,並沒有辦法完成很多事情"},{"start":16173.054,"end":16187.904,"text":"這個就土法不足以自行嘛所以還是必須要努力的去執行法律這個才是立法的主要目的最後我還是講一下剛剛陳佩玉委員大概也有講到就是中國海費的問題"},{"start":16189.465,"end":16213.421,"text":"希望部裡面這邊假如有足夠的經費或者是我們想辦法協助三個離島線看怎麼讓三個離島線的海洋可以更乾淨一點讓海灘可以少一點中國飄過來的垃圾這個我們從源頭管理是不可能啦"},{"start":16214.702,"end":16234.641,"text":"我們只能不停止的淨灘、打撈,這真的是一件非常厭煩的事情希望部裡面這邊可以主動跟三哥哥離島線,看有沒有什麼資源可以提供給"},{"start":16236.443,"end":16242.171,"text":"金門澎湖馬祖的縣政府讓地方來把海洋清一清"},{"start":16267.162,"end":16284.112,"text":"好 謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部新任職安署林署長"},{"start":16296.847,"end":16318.975,"text":"麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度"},{"start":16324.217,"end":16340.347,"text":"有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台"},{"start":16341.247,"end":16368.186,"text":"但是並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分"},{"start":16369.81,"end":16396.943,"text":"最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業"},{"start":16401.734,"end":16422.911,"text":"局限空間他基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域他受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面他就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是"},{"start":16427.65,"end":16450.497,"text":"我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎"},{"start":16454.505,"end":16474.667,"text":"沒有特別就這個部分 因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要你回頭看看啦 因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業"},{"start":16476.189,"end":16504.281,"text":"还有清洗污水槽作业造成四人中毒昏迷两人身体不适住院观察还有4月10号桃园下水道罕管内从事缆线检查作业一人被大水冲走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六石坪工厂两个兄弟从事这个伐积抽水作业吸入硫化氢中毒死亡总共造成36住院"},{"start":16505.041,"end":16533.538,"text":"發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的非常認同委員謝謝那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池伐機抽水時呢因為"},{"start":16534.278,"end":16551.265,"text":"吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池溺壁那治安署的中區治安中心呢14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確"},{"start":16554.196,"end":16572.036,"text":"跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的實在正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧"},{"start":16573.478,"end":16588.672,"text":"那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會"},{"start":16590.984,"end":16612.391,"text":"好那這樣反應都很正常嘛那如果這樣的案例讓所有的這個回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括這個外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守這個安全措施吧"},{"start":16613.251,"end":16638.034,"text":"可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工"},{"start":16639.833,"end":16667.675,"text":"是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":16668.824,"end":16686.03,"text":"這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導沒問題那為什麼就是說因為"},{"start":16691.088,"end":16712.884,"text":"看来大部分的时候你们都是只会去劳动检查然后出事了就调查开罚然后就没了因为大家不知道发生的原因跟状况也没有办法从中得到教训所以大家不懂得预防所以同类型的灾害就不断的发生"},{"start":16714.526,"end":16732.721,"text":"接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛"},{"start":16733.683,"end":16760.771,"text":"好 存檔了 因為風雪還存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好 所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙"},{"start":16761.511,"end":16788.505,"text":"那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦"},{"start":16788.925,"end":16813.829,"text":"只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了"},{"start":16815.295,"end":16843.933,"text":"目前看起來好像是這樣職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞檢是絕對不過的因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是"},{"start":16846.174,"end":16872.75,"text":"剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次了不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫"},{"start":16873.936,"end":16888.508,"text":"跟維保我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟維保這個資料 旁邊的人知道嗎"},{"start":16894.656,"end":16904.36,"text":"我們這個系統非常龐大 從民國93年都電訊到現在好 所以你回去看一下 是好 那目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例如果重大職災的話 基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分80%或10%的資訊都提供給家屬"},{"start":16916.889,"end":16935.661,"text":"你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反應喔實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷很多這樣的比例不高嗎"},{"start":16939.217,"end":16961.99,"text":"確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看"},{"start":16963.941,"end":16979.474,"text":"講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊"},{"start":16980.054,"end":16999.853,"text":"好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以open data"},{"start":17002.682,"end":17013.607,"text":"委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開對那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好"},{"start":17023.188,"end":17037.476,"text":"我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎委員那就兩個月謝謝"},{"start":17038.797,"end":17060.557,"text":"好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究 希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助職安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員"},{"start":17066.345,"end":17087.004,"text":"那本日會議詢答全部結束委員蘇清泉 徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者"},{"start":17087.803,"end":17096.87,"text":"請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆為人另有要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":17143.902,"end":17143.962,"text":"请勿模仿"}]}},{"id":"160365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4b045863bd2e611e9db8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b49ab895d7d41794bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:07:32 - 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碳費他們希望能夠延到2027我有收到這個訊息是嗎?對OK那剛才我們的幾個委員有提到我們現在台東的那個東海岸的所謂的我們的風力發電那剛才王議員說現在五十幾座 其實不是啊是27公里裡面它要建33個風力發電那其實"},{"start":273.564,"end":291.6,"text":"如果你去過那裡你會發現其實它的陸地其實是非常少的大部分就是海然後陸地一點點然後就開始就是我們居民生活的地方所以其實如果就它風力發電那個基座可能距離部落可能只有不到500公尺的距離所以我在想這個部分以後"},{"start":292.22,"end":319.75,"text":"部長 你在做看到環境影響評估的時候其實就對這個部分應該要很大的一個去肯定說它對我們原住民的傳統領域這個部分是不是有很多方面的影響因為我們都希望說有山影嘛中央跟地方影嘛然後我們地區的民眾影可是如果說它的負面確實是高於它未來這個山影的局面的時候你的考量其實是應該是很重要的所以我希望聽到你對這方面的一些見解"},{"start":320.626,"end":343.764,"text":"OK好謝謝委員因為風機在2009年開始有一個環皮的限制是250公尺半徑然後後來到2023年大概到500公尺可是之前現在的影響例如說在彰化雲林有一些居民的抱怨都是當時很早時候沒有相關法令定下來的的確產生很大的問題那目前呢也跟委員報告為什麼我要主動說因為其實"},{"start":344.664,"end":364.516,"text":"最近有很多的這種陸域風電他來我們部內申請環評其實委員都給他們高度的審核的一個標準特別是說提醒他們注意不大能夠過啦所以我就提醒他們如果要來申請那就要更加嚴更做更多的溝通才有辦法過那500公尺是一個基本的門檻"},{"start":365.316,"end":389.415,"text":"是 所以就其實就以後要設置之前我希望你能夠過去看一下甚至參加泰馬里或者是大武達人這方面的一些部落一些所謂的溝通的一個會議或者說至少是縣政府曾經所辦的這些我希望能夠主動參加吳博文委員因為他是屬於他準備要籌劃要蓋他連報告都還沒送到我們那邊所以我們也不知道好 那我只是"},{"start":389.955,"end":419.161,"text":"因為我在這邊要轉達我們在地部落的一些聲音然後剛才有提到我們獅子國中所謂的瀝青場距離獅子國中只有500公尺不到的一個距離那剛才聽到王一鳴委員講到說有一個什麼什麼新風專案就是可以有排氣的這些系統希望這個工廠可能不太可能說離開這個學校嘛那是不是就學校的一個設置或者是說它一個排湊的這個通風系統能不能也加進來不是只有獨厚我們竹水溪縣的"},{"start":421.083,"end":437.105,"text":"其實我們這個要源頭管理所以他現在我們所掌握的是他的製程裡面的確是讓這個臭氣排出來所以我們希望說因為他但是他一個月只有工作兩天所以我們要等到那個天知道他然後教育他來做改變這個只要他解決後面的問題就解決了"},{"start":437.125,"end":458.65,"text":"所以常常有環保單位去監測的時候就測不到就像我之前提到的那個法灣就是距離那個畜牧產業非常近其實我上個禮拜有去馬家鄉再做一次鄉鎮座談他們又再次提到我們法灣也就是我們排灣族發源地的這個村莊呢它距離那個養雞養豬場實在是太近了可是我們"},{"start":459.17,"end":485.593,"text":"一而再再而上的去講這個事情可是只要是環保單位去查其實就查不到任何意味可是生活在那邊的人每天晚上或者是來固定時間就會產生這樣子的一個問題然後或者是看到一大片的就是蒼蠅圍在他們的餐桌所以這個部分我是覺得部長你雖然去過了可是我是覺得還是要有個時間表至少讓民眾知道說環境部有在努力政府有在努力讓居民生活能夠安心可以嗎"},{"start":486.873,"end":500.238,"text":"報告委員上次看到那個養豬場其實我們也給他們很大的道德勸說你一定要做不做的話我們會加鹽查核所以我們認為是源頭要管理是最重要的如果源頭專利做得好這個問題就不見了我還是希望環境部有時間表謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":437,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時7分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長早。針對美國關稅的部分，先提出幾個問題，我想請問部長，你知道川普為什麼要退出巴黎氣候協定嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為美國在共和黨跟民主黨，對於氣候變遷的看法，一直都不大一樣，大概是從美國共和黨傳統的化石燃料派，不相信氣候變遷延伸出來的。"],["盧委員縣一：我翻一下資料，川普的想法是即便已經投入這麼多金額，預期效應沒有達到，剛剛我們看圖表，拜登政府投入大概1.6兆，結果目標只有下降0.2%。川普在2017年就提過一次，現在再度上任也持續抱持以前的想法，就是即便美國付出這麼多對氣候的貢獻，結果沒有他們想像中那麼好。回頭來看我們的NDC制定貢獻每5年要更新，我想知道2035年燃煤大概9%、燃氣要54%，你的看法是怎麼樣？你覺得可以達到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個目前是由經濟部門能源署在規劃，我們當然對他們有信心。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道所謂的carbon border，也就是碳邊境大概116年2月會開始做，我們臺版什麼時候會出現？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望是未來這幾個月，主要針對重點的產業，也要跟經濟部一起合作。"],["盧委員縣一：50噸的豁免量是怎麼訂出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，我們要觀察歐盟，大概是夏天7、8月會有細節出來。"],["盧委員縣一：希望能夠擴大豁免門檻到什麼程度？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，至少要讓我們本地的鋼鐵業或水泥業，不要受到從其他那些沒有碳稅、碳費的國家進來而衝擊，等於是我們必須要公平正義。"],["盧委員縣一：這些事情都是比較專業、比較新。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我希望在多方面的教育都可以呈現出來，我剛有看到你這個報告裡面第10頁說，我們結合大專院校開設淨零綠領增能課程，預計可以培養一年3,500人次以上。就原住民的立場來說，我希望按照人口比例，至少要有70到100人受到訓練，這個部分有規劃嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個部分我們有跟原住民委員會來談，他們也表達高度的意願，細節請主任來說明。"],["周主任國鼎：我們已經跟原民會討論過2次，包括這個禮拜一，原民會都表達強烈的意願，他們會推派一些原住民的代表來參加我們的課程。"],["盧委員縣一：我希望訓練人才裡面會有至少70名的原住民學生，或是在這個領域裡面的人來受訓練。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是希望未來可以有一個原住民的專班，特別針對原住民事業做一些訓練，這個還要原民會的同意。"],["盧委員縣一：這次美國加徵關稅，工總有六項建議，我來念一下：第一、申請簡化、便民，放寬紓困；第二、針對各產業別制訂政策；第三、成立「對美採購團」，工總能夠協助擴大對美採購，降低臺美貿易逆差……等等，一共六項建議，你看過了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我收到了，他們希望碳費能夠延到2027年，我有收到這個訊息。"],["盧委員縣一：是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。剛才幾個委員有提到現在臺東東海岸的風力發電，剛才王育敏委員說現在有五十幾座，其實不是，是27公里裡面要建33座風力發電，如果你去過那裡，你會發現陸地是非常少的，大部分就是海，陸地只有一點點，然後就是居民生活的地方，所以風力發電基座距離部落可能只有不到500公尺。部長，你看到環境影響評估的時候，應該要對這個部分要特別concern，對原住民的傳統領域是不是有很多方面的影響？因為我們都希望有三贏，中央跟地方贏、地區的民眾贏，如果未來它的負面影響高於三贏的局面，你的考量是很重要的，所以我希望聽到你對這方面的見解。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。因為風機在2009年開始有環評的限制是半徑250公尺，後來到2023年增加到500公尺，可是現在例如彰化、雲林有一些居民的抱怨，都是當時沒有相關法令訂下來，的確產生很大的問題。","跟委員報告，為什麼我要主動說？因為最近有很多的陸域風電來我們部內申請環評，其實委員都以高度審核的標準提醒他們注意，不大能夠過啦！我就提醒他們，如果要來申請，就要更加嚴、做更多的溝通，才有辦法過。500公尺是一個基本的門檻。"],["盧委員縣一：以後要設置之前，我希望你能夠過去看一下，甚至參加太麻里或者是大武、達仁的一些部落溝通會議或者至少是縣政府層級所辦的會議。我希望你能夠主動參加，聽聽……"],["彭部長啓明：不過委員，因為是準備籌劃要蓋，連報告都還沒送到我們那邊，所以我們也不知道。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我要轉達我們在地部落的聲音。","剛才有提到獅子國中的瀝青廠，距離獅子國中只有500公尺不到。剛才有聽到王育敏委員講到新風專案可以有排氣的系統，因為這個工廠可能不太可能離開這個學校，學校是不是能設置排臭的通風系統，不是只有獨厚濁水溪線，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個要源頭管理，現在我們所掌握的是它的製程裡面的確是讓臭氣排出來，但是他一個月只有工作2天，所以我們要等到工作天教育他來改變，只要他解決，後面的問題就解決了。"],["盧委員縣一：常常有環保單位去監測的時候，就是測不到。","就像我之前提到的筏灣，距離畜牧場非常近，我上個禮拜有去馬賽鄉再做一次鄉鎮座談，他們又再次提到筏灣，也就是我們排灣族發源地的村莊，距離養雞、養豬場實在是太近了。雖然我們一而再、再而三的去講這個事情，可是只要是環保單位去查，就查不到任何異味，而生活在那邊的人，每天晚上或者固定時間就會產生這樣的問題或者看到一大群的蒼蠅圍在他們的餐桌。針對這個部分，部長雖然去過了，可是我是覺得還是要有一個時間表，至少讓民眾知道，環境部有在努力，政府有在努力，讓居民生活能夠安心，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。報告委員，上次看到那個養豬場，我們也給他們很大的道德勸說，你一定要做，不做的話，我們會加嚴查核，所以我們認為要源頭管理是最重要的，如果源頭管理做得好，這個問題就不見。"],["盧委員縣一：還是希望環境部有時間表，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員，謝謝部長。","委員會報告，我們等邱鎮軍委員詢答結束後，休息10分鐘。請邱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長來 請部長王委員好部長好 部長我們今天討論這個環境部重要的議題首先我就是要針對之前你們修的這個法就是開發行為要實施還品的這個29條"},{"start":27.206,"end":31.95,"text":"來跟您做討論那主要是過去會要修正29條有看到台南小二甲的案例這個化整為零還有就是大規模的毀零重電那這些都不需要環評引發社會非常大的一個爭議那我就要請教你你修法完之後這兩個議題有沒有充分解決了第一個是"},{"start":51.556,"end":60.316,"text":"像小二甲這樣子化整為領的部分在你新通過的法令裡面是不是未來就可以全面性的杜絕"},{"start":61.918,"end":84.759,"text":"包委員其實目前對於這個農地或濕地或是說山坡地或是造林地其實目前按照現在的這個規定的話是有列入管制的所以小二甲的情況不會再出現不會不會原地的都可以被管制包委員這個都有光電業者都來跟我們抗議所以表示說這個這個環評的是有效因為他們也擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展好所以表示說這個是有效的好"},{"start":85.239,"end":104.823,"text":"那在小二甲的這個杜絕的部分化整危險的部分有成效但是有一個部分呢毀零重電我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈就是之前發生在嘉義縣東石鄉這個台塘林場造地77公頃人工防風零20餘年因為要毀零重電鄉親大幅的抗議跟反彈"},{"start":111.451,"end":129.094,"text":"那這件事情呢你們當時也說會透過修法來處理結果我看了你們的修法在29條裡面你們還是開了一個綠燈啊只要能源主管機關同意者不在此限那你這有修跟沒修這個完全是一樣的"},{"start":129.875,"end":146.87,"text":"因為這一些大規模的光電都是經濟部就是默許嘛因為現在缺電嘛所以同意他們開發那你為什麼還在這邊就是你們自己環境部這個你們自己的這個權利就是你們不敢用出來還刻意給這個經濟部一個開綠燈"},{"start":152.557,"end":171.02,"text":"包委員這個因為這個當時定的定義的是跨部會的協商那其實針對政府核定的這個相關的補助的土地例如說像這個是台湯的土地或是說公有的土地本身就是屬於經由能源主管機關同意的就沒有在我們的管轄的範圍裡面我覺得這個是經濟部主管的這樣的一個修法"},{"start":171.841,"end":189.685,"text":"本席還是不能同意因為其實各部會各司其職環境部你應該要肩負的就是整個環境的永續你的考量點跟經濟部一定是不一樣的那今天環評的這個權利就在你的手上所以基本上你是應該要用環境部的角度來看待這樣的一個個案"},{"start":192.146,"end":210.278,"text":"而不是你用整個權力還回去給經濟部經濟部當然是官官相護啊他怎麼可能會去擋自己旗下的這個光電業者的開發所以如果是這樣子你這一個的修法有修等於沒有修啦部長你自己有沒有看到這個問題這一點我是覺得環境部不應該去退讓你看以嘉義縣的這一個它整個是高達77公頃欸這麼大規模整個毀零重電部長如果是你你可以同意嗎"},{"start":222.698,"end":229.763,"text":"這個對於環境的永續連鄉親都大力的抗議那未來類似這樣的案例只要經濟部同意他一樣照樣通過這個主要是這個地才是屬於台塘的地啊這個是經濟部部長之外主管我知道是他們的地但是這樣大規模違反環境永續的原則然後大規模的去把樹砍掉你知道這些"},{"start":247.096,"end":276.816,"text":"你要種個一二十年它對整個環境它所帶來的正面的影響是很大的那你今天為了這些光電業者的利益你就整個把它大規模的毀壞我覺得這個部分是你們這次修法上面一個很大的漏洞而且也沒有補起來我希望部長你可以看到這樣子的一個問題你們應該持續去演繹我真的不希望下一個這種大規模的毀零種電的情況在台灣再發生我覺得這個是違反永續的世界潮流的"},{"start":277.336,"end":283.24,"text":"也違反減碳的精神那接下來我要讓你看一下現在環境部針對幾個環評你們的立場"},{"start":286.909,"end":308.045,"text":"到底是什麼怎麼看起來這個立場都不太一致像這個基隆協和電廠這個事後被發現這個土地有遭受到污染那你們是事後你們等於是先過環評事後再說我們再來揭弊再來嚴查這樣子是對的嗎環評不是應該是把關在前面嗎"},{"start":310.059,"end":325.224,"text":"這個部分部長你有什麼意見關於基隆協和電廠其實任何人他想要開發可能開發這個土地或等等他有他自己的意願那他送來我們這邊地方我們是裁判的角色所以我們沒有辦法說你不准給我送過來這個我們是要做的"},{"start":325.384,"end":328.628,"text":"但是你的環評的決策就很重要通過跟不通過它就是有意義的當它不符合你整個環評的要件的時候你是可以讓它不通過的這個就是環境部我們要你獨立出來升格你一個很重要"},{"start":342.086,"end":356.503,"text":"你要扮演一個把關的機制但是在這個金融協和電廠我還是看到很抱歉我坦白講這個雖然部長你之前有說你們不是經濟部的經濟部不是大哥你們不是小弟但是在一些關鍵的環評的案件上面"},{"start":358.646,"end":381.768,"text":"看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強還是你有口難言因為這個是行政院要通過的東西即使是環境部也不能擋就必須順著經濟部的意就是一定是要讓他通過我個人看到是有這樣子的一個感覺就是你是不是即使你貴為部長也有身不由己的地方這個是上面有交辦的應該要過的所以你們也不能擋"},{"start":382.389,"end":408.423,"text":"好 包委員我擔任環境部長之內我沒有接遇到我的院長給我一個指示這個案要過或不要過我也從來不會跟環評委員說這個要給我過不過從來沒有過任何的暗示或是明示所以這個其實任何的環評開發單位他只要做得好環境影響評估他速度夠快到環評委員會能夠過得了也說服得了地方其實他就會比較容易過所以這個是這樣的道理所以我並沒有說一個限制"},{"start":408.823,"end":426.002,"text":"所以委員說東石是東石的案例協和電廠其實這個不是揭弊因為其實根據法令它是跟那個土壤土屋是無關的那現在呢因為我接受到委員的一些爆料所以我們就組成一個專案小組看當時他有沒有隱匿這個事情的確現在正在查核當中"},{"start":426.522,"end":451.155,"text":"好 那這個案子我希望你們繼續去查核如果當時在環評過程當中有隱匿而你們的環評的主席包括委員通通都沒有發現或去忽視這一些團體所指出來的這些原因我覺得你們應該要檢討 好不好這個案子也應該要注意另外一個是台東陸域封店這一個案子 這個現在在網路上有很多的討論台東這個部長有去過吧"},{"start":454.646,"end":459.01,"text":"我去過台東 但是不知道那個地方有放那麼多風氣台東的海岸線其實非常的漂亮所以他現在要把它種滿的這個風力發電就是五十幾座這個引發非常大的一個批評那這件事情我也很好奇環境部在這當中你們又要扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":477.446,"end":506.753,"text":"在這件事情當中是地方的角色還是你中央有角色完全是看台東縣政府還是環境部你們會在這件事情上面就是給予意見包委員其實任何的風機陸域跟海域都是要環境部要審核的所以他目前他想要開發那他經過他的程序送到我們那個網站有一個評核他報告書都還沒有送進來還在意見徵詢的階段所以其實那天其實我自己看到那個狀況因為我過去也去看過日本的風機他們大概要500公尺以上"},{"start":507.213,"end":524.822,"text":"所以這次其實引發台東鄉親的疑慮我們也很重視所以我才提出我的看法出來所以我要提醒部長就是說像台東陸域封店我肯定你有餘地時間表達自己的看法但是在其他的環評案件我覺得你的看法"},{"start":525.382,"end":553.491,"text":"並沒有像這一個案件就是這麼勇於的直接表達出來我是覺得作為環境部部長其實你有你的原則你有你的底線你有你的看法這個是我們對你的期待因為你來自民間你沒有包袱那這樣子我覺得我們整個的環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平公正而且可以適度的去節制像經濟部有一些不當的開發案在你們的守護底下我們的環境才可以永續這個是我們對你的期待"},{"start":555.071,"end":564.836,"text":"那最後我要問一個就是有關於這個今天有一個議題就是環境部你們現在在針對空品的部分對於學校或誘託場所你們現在的補助坦白講你們那個給的點值給的獎勵真的金額很低我不知道部長自己知不知道你們的這個鼓勵呢最高35萬點換算成台幣大概只有3,500就是在補助這些學校"},{"start":585.008,"end":606.465,"text":"是金額很低那像台北市他們去補助這個托嬰他一次就兩萬塊那所以這個部分是不是環境部我是希望你們回去檢討就是說我們對於這一些孩子的場所你們用獎勵的方式鼓勵大家就是來做自主的管理標章這個我很認同但是你們的獎勵"},{"start":608.407,"end":623.579,"text":"錢也給得太少 現在物價通膨 3500是可以做什麼 3500真的是非常杯水車薪這個部分我希望你們可以去研議那另外一個今天教育部也有來 就是我要提醒這個教育部這個教育部代表請上來你們現在針對這個改善幼兒園或是學校的部分 你們有一個"},{"start":633.846,"end":651.88,"text":"這個新風換氣的系統但是你們現在補助僅限於彰化跟雲林那這個部分我覺得是太少了因為現在位於污染區的這個學校不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林其他地區也有像嘉義縣市的話他們現在也有四所小學"},{"start":652.56,"end":678.142,"text":"就是他的這個污染的工廠距離他大概就只有500公尺喔那他一樣會對學生造成影響所以這個教育部的代表是不是可以回應喔就是我希望你們可以擴大你們這一個新風換氣的這個系統我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的是不是未來針對有些縣市他距離這個污染的工廠是比較近的然後一樣有受到影響的學校你們也可以去擴大補助給予他們一些補助可不可以"},{"start":682.179,"end":704.491,"text":"公務員報告 那目前部裡面的針對雲林跟彰化縣桌水溪沿岸的部分學校有做補助那這主要是配合行政院整體的桌水溪陽城防治及改善方案那至於嘉義縣市的這些受到工廠可能的影響的學校是否納入這部分我們會配合整體計畫一起來做研議討論"},{"start":705.592,"end":724.998,"text":"那就請你們回去研議因為其實受到衝擊的其實不是只有彰化跟雲梁其他縣市同樣也會有那部長針對你們提高你們的這個獎勵補助你們是不是可以回去研議三千五真的很少因為台北市現在很有錢比我們有錢多了所以我們會再想辦法再擠一下"},{"start":725.458,"end":740.391,"text":"好啊因為隨著物價水準你們應該調高一下你們的補助好不好因為現在物價真的漲得很兇我們預算今年還比較少所以以後還請委員多支持好啦好啦這個該對兒少要大方的你們這個獎勵補助應該要提高好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時55分）謝謝主席。有請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。我們今天討論與環境部有關的重要議題，首先我要針對之前你們所預告的「開發行為應實施環評影響評估細目及範圍認定標準」部分條文修正草案的第二十九條來跟您討論。之所以要修正第二十九條，是因為臺南小二甲化整為零，大規模毀林種電，且不需要環評，引發非常大的社會爭議。所以我要請教你，在修法完之後，這兩個議題是否充分解決？像小二甲化整為零的狀況，未來在環境部新通過的法令裡，是不是可以全面性杜絕？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前對於農地、溼地或山坡地、造林地，都按照現在的規定列入管制。"],["王委員育敏：所以小二甲的情況不會再出現？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["王委員育敏：鹽地都可以被管制？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，光電業者都來跟我們抗議了，代表納入環評是有效的，因為他們擔心會阻礙太陽光電的發展，就代表這是有效的。"],["王委員育敏：所以在杜絕小二甲化整為零的問題上有成效，但是毀林種電呢？我看到你們還是幫經濟部開了綠燈！像嘉義縣東石鄉的台糖林場造地77公頃，人工防風林做了二十餘年，卻因為要種電而毀林，引起鄉親的大幅抗議跟反彈！你們當時說這件事會透過修法來處理，結果我看了第二十九條的修正，你們還是開了綠燈，只要經能源主管機關同意者不在此限，所以有修跟沒修完全是一樣的！這些大規模光電都是經濟部所默許的，因為現在缺電，所以同意他們開發，為什麼環境部不敢用自己的權力，還刻意給經濟部開綠燈？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個定義當時經過跨部會協商，不過經政府核定的相關補助的土地，例如台糖土地或公有土地，本身即屬經由能源主管機關同意的，所以就不在我們的管轄範圍內，因為這是經濟部主管的。"],["王委員育敏：本席還是不能同意這樣的修法！各部會各司其職，環境部所肩負的就是整個環境的永續，所以你的考量點跟經濟部一定不一樣！今天環評的權力就在你手上，因此，應該以環境部的角度來看待這樣的個案，而不是把權力還給經濟部！經濟部當然是官官相護，怎麼可能會擋自己旗下光電業者的開發？這樣的話，這條的修法有修等於沒有修！部長，你自己有沒有看到這問題？我覺得環境部不應該退讓！以嘉義縣這塊土地來說，高達七十七公頃林地被大規模毀林種電。部長，如果是你的話，你可以同意嗎？對環境永續造成的影響，連鄉親都大力抗議，未來類似這樣的案例，只要經濟部同意就會照樣通過。"],["彭部長啓明：主要是因為這塊地是屬於台糖的地，經濟部是目的事業主管機關……"],["王委員育敏：我知道是他們的地，但大規模違反環境永續原則、大規模把樹砍掉，這些樹要種上一、二十年，對整個環境所帶來的正面影響是很大的！但今天為了光電業者的利益，就整個大規模毀壞，我覺得這是你們這次修法上一個很大的漏洞，而且沒有補起來！我希望部長可以看到問題，且應該持續研議，我真的不希望下一個大規模毀林種電的情況又在臺灣再次發生，這違反了永續的世界潮流，也違反減碳精神。","接下來我要讓你看，現在環境部針對幾個案件的環評立場到底是什麼？怎麼看起來立場都不太一致？像基隆協和電廠，事後被發現土地遭受污染，你們先過環評，事後再揭弊、再嚴查，這樣子對嗎？環評不是應該在前面把關嗎？這個部分，部長有什麼意見？關於基隆協和電廠。"],["彭部長啓明：其實任何人想要開發土地或等等，有自己的意願，送過來我們這邊，我們只是裁判的角色，沒有辦法不准他們送過來，這是我沒有辦法做的。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但是你環評的決策就很重要嘛！通過跟不通過要有意義，當不符合環評的要件，你可以讓它不通過，這就是要環境部獨立升格很重要的原因，你要扮演把關的機制。關於基隆協和電廠，我很抱歉要坦白講，雖然部長之前說經濟部不是大哥，你們不是小弟，但是在一些關鍵的環評案件上，看起來經濟部的主導性還是很強，還是你有口難言？因為這是行政院要通過的東西，即使是環境部也不能擋，必須順著經濟部的意思一定要通過？我個人看到是有這樣的感覺，你是不是即使貴為部長也有身不由己的地方？這是上面交辦應該要過，所以你們也不能擋？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我擔任環境部長任內，沒有接到院長給我指示案子要過或不要過，我也從來不會給環評委員任何暗示或是明示，任何的環評開發單位只要做得好，環境影響評估速度夠快，到環評委員會能夠通過，也說服得了地方，就會比較容易過，是這樣的道理，我並沒有限制。東石是東石的案例，協和電廠不是揭弊，其實根據法令，跟土污是無關的，而是接受委員的爆料後，所以我們組成專案小組看當時有沒有隱匿這件事情，現在正在查核當中。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個案子我希望你們繼續查核，如果當時在環評過程有隱匿，而你們環評的主席包括委員，通通都沒有發現或者忽視團體所指出來的原因，我覺得你們應該要檢討，好不好？這個案子應該要注意。","另外是臺東陸域風電這個案子，現在網路上有很多的討論，部長有去過臺東吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我去過臺東，但是不知道地方有蓋那麼多風機。"],["王委員育敏：臺東的海岸線非常的漂亮，現在要把它種滿五十幾座風力發電，引發大量的批評，我很好奇環境部在這件事情當中又要扮演什麼樣的角色，是地方的角色，還是中央的角色？完全是看臺東縣政府，還是環境部會在這件事情上給予意見？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實任何的風機，陸域跟海域都是環境部要審核，目前想要開發，經過程序送到我們網站有一個評核，但它報告書都還沒有送進來，還在意見徵詢的階段，其實我也去看過日本的風機，他們大概要距離500公尺以上，這次引發臺東鄉親的疑慮，我們也很重視，所以我才提出看法。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要提醒部長，像臺東陸域風電，我肯定你勇於第一時間表達自己的看法，但是在其他的環評案件，我覺得你的看法並沒有像這個案件這麼勇於直接表達出來。作為環境部部長，你有你的原則、你有你的底線、你有你的看法，這是我們對你的期待，因為你來自民間沒有包袱，環境部扮演的角色才可以更公平、公正，而且可以適度地節制。像經濟部有一些不當的開發案，在你們的守護底下環境才可以永續，這是我們對你的期待。","最後關於環境部現在針對空品的部分，對於學校或幼托場所的補助，坦白講，你們給的點值、獎勵金額真的很低，我不知道部長知不知道，你們給的鼓勵最高35萬點，換算成臺幣大概只有3,500，補助學校的金額真的很低，像臺北市補助托嬰，一次就2萬塊，所以我希望環境部能回去檢討。對於孩子的場所，你們用的獎勵方式，鼓勵大家做自主的管理標章，這個我很認同，但是你們獎勵的錢給得太少，現在物價通膨，3,500可以做什麼？3,500真的是非常杯水車薪。這個部分，我希望你們可以去研議。","另外今天教育部也有來，我要提醒教育部，教育部代表請上來，你們現在針對改善幼兒園或者是學校，有一個新風換氣的系統，但是補助僅限於彰化跟雲林，我覺得太少，因為現在位於污染區的學校，不是只有集中在彰化跟雲林，其他地區像嘉義縣市也有4所小學，污染的工廠距離他們大概就只有500公尺，一樣會對學生造成影響，教育部的代表是不是可以回應？我希望你們可以擴大新風換氣的系統，我覺得對於改善孩子健康是有幫助的，是不是未來針對有些縣市距離污染的工廠是比較近，一樣有受到影響的學校，你們可以擴大給予他們補助，可不可以？"],["薛專門委員承祐：跟委員報告，目前部裡針對雲林跟彰化縣、濁水溪沿岸的部分學校有補助，主要是配合行政院整體的濁水溪養成防治及改善方案，至於嘉義縣市可能受到工廠影響的學校是否納入，我們會配合整體計畫一起研議、討論。"],["王委員育敏：好，請你們回去研議，因為受到衝擊的不是只有彰化跟雲林，其他縣市同樣也會有。部長，針對提高你們的獎勵補助，是不是可以回去研議？3,500真的很少。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為臺北市現在很有錢，比我們有錢多了，我們會再想辦法再擠一下。"],["王委員育敏：好啊。隨著物價水準你們也該調高一下補助，好不好？因為現在物價真的漲得很兇。"],["彭部長啓明：我們預算今年還比較少，所以以後還請委員多支持。"],["王委員育敏：好啦。對兒少要大方，你們獎勵補助應該要提高，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請盧縣一委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}},{"id":"160363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a448c2e0f230910af4db8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b490fea439d9936a0d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:40:35 - 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Speaker我沒有做國安的討論我是說其實在國際上的確有這樣的討論但是其實是有些國家的案例台灣還並沒有這樣的討論那您認為那您會認為因為你是環境部嘛所以您認為核能是否會對台灣的淨零碳排等等我們需要達到的這些國際任務會有幫助呢"},{"start":155.593,"end":178.515,"text":"如果說低碳能源的話當然是有幫助不過報告委員因為當時我們訂這個減碳目標的時候核能我也看到裡面那這問題是說要法定通過還要這個安全檢查然後還有地層斷層的這個處理然後甚至呢最後還有經費核廢料等等其實這個算起來費用很高也要花很久的時間所以其實最後淨離的目標是沒有辦法"},{"start":178.955,"end":196.666,"text":"您專業環境部長的意見您是認為核能的確是對淨零碳排有幫助但是背後還有很多事情需要處理剛剛您的意思是這樣子對 要很多錢還要花很多的時間不是說明天就可以繼續用了所以這個基本上這個是我們沒有辦法掌控的所以那時候我們推淨零的時候沒有把它放進去"},{"start":196.886,"end":213.181,"text":"好那再來呢因為您當天除了稍微聊到國安以外您說呢這個中央沒有非核家園的信仰也沒有也不是所謂行政團隊的神主牌所以你們說這個政府的態度是很開放的"},{"start":214.322,"end":240.995,"text":"請問您講的這個中央代表的是什麼中央因為現在中央政府的中央跟民進黨黨主席的中央是同一個中央您這個提到的這個是指我們行政團隊因為委員在大院的時候包含卓院長或是總統在氣候變遷對策委員會也曾經多說過非二加元不是神主牌之類的話所以其實我是就是引述而已並沒有說這個是我們政策上有很大的轉彎並沒有轉彎"},{"start":242.236,"end":255.761,"text":"但因為我們現在總統同時也是民進黨的黨主席嘛所以你的意思是說行政團隊的這個中央團隊認為非核家園已經不再是神主牌所以代表說你們也有可能會轉彎沒有就是說我們很開放的來討論這個事情開放的來討論對對對"},{"start":260.563,"end":269.431,"text":"那另外您在這個訪談您是當Keynote Speaker嘛所以您也有提到說SMR的這個問題所以因為我們現在剛好面臨國人非常關心的90天關稅談判而賴總統也有提到說能源是我們談判的籌碼之一請問這個SMR是不是你們內部也開始有在討論是不是關稅談判的籌碼之一呢"},{"start":285.985,"end":302.747,"text":"包括因為能源或是核能或是核廢料真的不是我們環境部主管的單位可能是經濟部但是您聊蠻多的但是因為我們是關心淨零所以我們的確是很認真的去做瞭解那以現在全世界SMR目前最快最快可以商轉可能是2030年"},{"start":304.589,"end":327.147,"text":"這個我的意思是說在談判的籌碼能源SMR列入談判的籌碼跟它什麼時候開始相轉我想這是兩回事吧那既然您參加的這些委員會可能也同時都涵蓋有經濟部的部長也涵蓋有和安會等等你們全部都會一起參加這些會議嘛所以我也想知道說大家是不是都跟您有一樣的想法因為您對於SMR也蠻多看法的"},{"start":330.109,"end":356.014,"text":"的確它的確是一個新的這個新的技術但是也跟委員報告他蠻貴的這個其實目前最新的一個美國的new scale的2030年完工的大概一個機組462M大概就要花到105億美元這個其實很貴還不如蓋一個新的所以基本上不管是SMR或是一種核能的重啟或研議其實第一個他費用第二個是說他跟社會的溝通的成本還有各種核廢料其實都"},{"start":356.754,"end":381.107,"text":"說真的還蠻困難的可是因為全民都蠻關切這個90天的貿易關稅談判嘛所以既然能源一定會是談判其中的一個選項之一所以大家也就會想要知道說SMR是不是就籌碼之一嘛目前我自己我沒有參與那個討論這個SMR的會議那我想因為目前全世界也還沒有SMR開始商轉所以應該不會列入這個"},{"start":381.547,"end":407.812,"text":"那因為剛剛你有提到說這些核能相關的議題其實還需要很多的社會凝聚共識也要非常多的溝通所以既然能源是其中一個談判籌碼之一的話我也希望您知道談判之後呢也可以盡快的展開這些溝通好嗎好 謝謝對 因為聽起來的話我們也很擔心這個SMR它列入溝通那它也會對我們國家的能源政策造成一個蠻重大的衝擊嘛好 謝謝"},{"start":410.131,"end":426.095,"text":"好 那下一個想問一下這個是我們今年1月底太陽能光電環屏終於納入環屏的標準那這些內容就包括以下我劃線的這也是您認同的嘛濕地 山坡地 動物保護區等等潮間帶你覺得這樣子夠嗎"},{"start":429.315,"end":449.634,"text":"有沒有遺漏的報告委員其實環評有兩個目的世界主管機關一個是例如說經濟部像能源署就是主管機關之一他們有他們的生態檢核的機制那我們是超過一定的量大就要送到我們這邊環評所以基本上目前是我們有參考其他國家和日本的進行方式那這是我去年執行的內容我們也稍微播放一下"},{"start":452.113,"end":467.096,"text":"因為你剛提到量我們等一下也會來討論量放在屋頂上可以費率比較高嘛所以就很多人其實他覺得餘溫結果他故意去架了一個屋頂然後再放到屋頂上這個我想你們都已經知道了啦計算起來呢這些"},{"start":467.717,"end":493.258,"text":"不需要做環射檢核的屋頂加起來已經1117公頃好我們來對比之前你說需要環評有一個高爾夫球場曾經接受過很嚴重的環評很詳細的環評才52公頃結果剛剛大家都說這個屋頂上有多好我們獎勵他們結果1117公頃現在都沒有人在管他們這個是很違背一般人民的認知現在許多人是假養殖在增重店"},{"start":495.973,"end":498.515,"text":"好 剛剛你有講到量嘛很明顯的這些屋頂上的量是很大的喔全部統計起來是非常大的那這邊呢 是許多多人民也有跟我們反映啦等一下我會給你看一個澄清我們先看 你在規定風力發電"},{"start":520.151,"end":549,"text":"你在規定水利發電你在規定核能潮汐地熱後面從來就沒有一個單書沒有這種括號的東西出現可是呢針對這個其實國人最在意的許許多多弊案而且利益牽扯最複雜的光點你後面有這一大段的括號單書寫不含設置於屋頂上或屬其他開發行為附屬等等事業主管機關確認者就是你剛提到的經濟部"},{"start":550.6,"end":567.646,"text":"為什麼為什麼第一個是屋頂上本來就是沒有限制甚至說餘溫上面這個餘電共生那個就是不用去做特別的環評那個是目的世界主管機關他經過這個生態檢核過後其實他有他的標準那目前是不用經過環評"},{"start":568.866,"end":588.865,"text":"好但這個也是我們許許多啦許多人那人民啊他們已經不堪其擾這個社區進去到處就是光電板像狗皮膏藥一樣好在這邊第六點你看我曾經質詢過蘇清玄招委也帶著環境部一起去看現在屏東是什麼樣子"},{"start":590.166,"end":615.618,"text":"那當然你剛剛說屬於經濟部的核可就不用環評結果呢我們都發現他們是砍樹來放光電板那你還把這些大家最在意的你知道很多餘溫因為放了光電板已經變成一灘臭水變成這樣子這些也是你走訪中南部所看到的也是我們中南部現在鄉親很在意的啊"},{"start":617.064,"end":621.661,"text":"結果你在修改的時候還特別列了一個其他能源政策都沒有的單數"},{"start":623.188,"end":649.145,"text":"包委員這個其實是第一個是造林一個是平地一個是山坡地例如說像蘇委員說的就是山坡地它是15公頃以上或是20M就要還平所以基本上有一定的單數那個因為那個是很早期弄的的確那時候沒有任何的限制那現在是有了而且加嚴了好那這邊我們看因為你第一片這個slide你就說提到量你覺得這個光電板的量但你看這邊"},{"start":650.606,"end":656.671,"text":"你既然他已經是但書了以外然後他卻是近幾年來越來越多從108年到112年屋頂上比地面型還要多超過現在併網的一半結果你變相還加一個但書你覺得113年 114年 115年你會怎麼預期他屋頂型會不會越來越多"},{"start":671.494,"end":696.711,"text":"屋頂型基本上是應該是被鼓勵的因為他不是說從現有的農地或是說各種的新開發的林地去做改變屋頂型是基本上是被鼓勵的而且我們的獎勵被鼓勵但是也需要受到環境部的規範嗎基本上目前是不用做因為屋頂型的這個量其實他不會不會太大但是而且是個別個別小的剛已經跟你說他是病亡一半好這邊啊"},{"start":698.174,"end":721.539,"text":"你們在做這個預告的時候其實你們有附上一個email你有提到說60日內請提供建議等等那為什麼我會詢問你這件事就是因為我們有收到一位中南部阿貝的陳情他的意思是說他已經受不了了他走進他的社區到處就是而且還蓋在水溝上根本沒有什麼環境部的管制嘛那這是去年8月他把這整封信貼給我們"},{"start":722.759,"end":740.345,"text":"他講到說很多屋頂上的光點他反映給你們知道是假屋頂型只是因為設置的條件比較寬鬆所以故意蓋一個屋頂就明明他那邊其實不需要屋頂他為了做屋頂型又去硬扯一個鐵皮屋蓋了一個屋頂那反而很妨害下面的生態"},{"start":741.305,"end":763.041,"text":"但因為他是不需要你們的檢核而且費率還比地面型還要高所以就變成一個變相的發財之道難怪申請量暴增結果你們公告的草案竟然直接去免去屋頂型的環評成為大漏洞所以請將以上的建議納入並且考慮修正結果你知道嗎這封信已讀不回"},{"start":764.022,"end":775.555,"text":"所以我也搞不太清楚你們叫大家寄信到你們這個可能是林彥祺的信箱然後說要參考大家的修正意見那已讀不回所以你們到底有沒有納入"},{"start":779.479,"end":802.578,"text":"這個我們會再跟能源署再來做協調因為這個部分屋頂型的光電是主要是他們有他們的一個機制生態檢核的機制然後是由這個能源署在主管的所以我們會再來瞭解好不好這個案例這個幾個案例這是未來的政策請問你們在這段期間是不是也陸續收到許多意見有沒有你們有回覆嗎還是全部都沒有回覆"},{"start":803.018,"end":825.672,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛您提到的那個就是公開徵詢意見是在我們預告期間收集的各界意見那我們收集的意見以後其實也有開公聽演商會然後也會跟各個相關的行政機關做研究所以也不是說所有收到陳情的意見我們都會在最後修法定案的時候去採納因為這可能要綜合很多的意見我知道你們不一定要採納但是你們可能也要回復一下人家"},{"start":826.512,"end":852.253,"text":"因為本來阿伯是希望你們可以他希望帶你們去看他的社區或是拍一些照片給你們但就全部沒有回覆結果最後就直接上路了是這個我們在會後我們再瞭解一下因為有很多意見其實我們有最後有做一個回應的表然後可能在這個這個案例我們去了解一下那個陳情人的意見我們是不是有收到那之後再跟你們繼續追蹤這個屋頂型的好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時40分）謝謝主席，謝謝各位官員，謝謝委員。我也想請環境部部長，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：蠻多人關注您最近對外的一些發言，所以今天我也趕快熟讀一下您的發言。本席第一個想問的問題是，您前幾天出席國家安全防衛韌性委員會之後認為許多委員都有達到一樣的共識，對於臺灣如何應對能源封鎖，針對國安的風險，考量國安則應該要保留核能，這是您說的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個媒體報導有錯，第一個，全社會防衛韌性還沒有開，我是說國家安全不是我們氣候變遷所阻擋的，這應該可以從那個委員會去討論，所以其實我當天說得很清楚，我也跟我同仁確認過，也問同仁我是這樣講的嗎？他們可能把一些內容刪掉了。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，因為這個文章中提到現場有企業對您提問：臺海若發生封鎖，恐嚴重影響國安。您表示對進口天然氣的依賴確實涉及國安，因此在討論相關議題的時候，你說你曾經參加過這樣子的委員會……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我不是這樣講的。我是說各種能源，包含很多國家在推動能源政策時，其實核能也是國安的選項之一。對於這個部分，我們未來也可以來討論這個事情，那這個討論平臺不在氣候變遷對策委員會，是在全社會防衛韌性，從國家安全的角度，因為我們不是國家安全的單位，其實他們昨天問我，我這樣答的，但我很遺憾媒體是這樣寫的。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您是以什麼身分來聊這些，您認為這個議題可以在國安當中討論？"],["彭部長啓明：他們請我去做keynote 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speaker，所以你也提到SMR的問題，因為我們現在剛好面臨國人非常關心的90天關稅談判，賴總統也提到能源是我們談判的籌碼之一，請問這個SMR是不是在你們內部也開始討論？是不是關稅談判的籌碼之一呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為能源、核能或是核廢料，我們環境部真的不是主管單位，可能是經濟部……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是您聊蠻多的。"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們關心淨零，所以我們的確是很認真的去了解，以現在全世界的SMR來說，目前最快可以商轉的時間可能是2030年。"],["陳委員菁徽：我的意思是，在談判籌碼方面，我想能源SMR列入談判籌碼跟它什麼時候開始商轉是兩回事吧？既然您參加這些委員會可能同時都涵蓋有經濟部的部長，也涵蓋有核安會等等，你們全部都會一起參加這些會議，所以我也想知道，大家是不是都跟您有一樣的想法？因為您對於SMR也蠻多看法的。"],["彭部長啓明：它的確是一個新的技術，但是也跟委員報告，它蠻貴的，其實美國目前最新的newskill，大概在2030年完工的機組，462MW就要花到105億美元，這個其實很貴，還不如蓋一個新的。基本上不管是SMR或是核能的重啟或研議，第一個是費用，第二個是跟社會溝通的成本，還有各種核廢料，說真的都還蠻困難的。"],["陳委員菁徽：是的，可是因為全民都蠻關切這個90天的貿易關稅談判，既然能源一定會是其中談判的選項之一，所以大家也就會想要知道SMR是不是籌碼之一。"],["彭部長啓明：目前我沒有參與討論SMR的會議，因為目前全世界也還沒有SMR開始商轉，所以應該不會列入。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為剛剛你有提到核能相關的議題，其實還需要凝聚很多的社會共識，也需要非常多的溝通，既然能源是其中的一個談判籌碼的話，我也希望您知道談判之後可以儘快展開這些溝通，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為我們也很擔心SMR如果列入溝通，也會對我們國家能源政策造成蠻重大的衝擊。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，下一個想問，今年1月底太陽能光電環評終於納入環評的標準，簡報中的這些內容，包括我畫線的，這也是您認同的嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：溼地、山坡地、動物保護區、潮間帶等等，你覺得這樣子夠嗎？有沒有遺漏的？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實環評有兩個目的事業主管機關，一個是經濟部，像能源署就是主管機關之一，他們有他們生態檢核的機制；那我們是超過一定的量就要送到我們這邊環評，目前我們有參考其他國家跟日本的進行方式。"],["陳委員菁徽：這是我去年質詢的內容，我們稍微播放一下。因為你剛剛提到量，我們等一下也會討論量。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛你有講到量，很明顯的，這些屋頂上的量是很大的，全部統計起來是非常大的，這邊是許許多多人民跟我們反映的，等一下我會給你看一個陳情，我們先看你們規定風力發電、水力發電，你們在規定核能、潮汐、地熱後面從來就沒有但書，沒有括號這種東西出現，可是針對這個，其實國人最在意的是許許多多弊案，而且是利益牽扯最複雜的光電，你們在後面有一大段的括號、但書寫「不含設置於屋頂上，或屬其他開發行為之附屬……事業主管機關確認者」，也就是你剛剛提到的經濟部，為什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，屋頂上本來就沒有限制，甚至魚塭上的漁電共生也不用特別做環評，因為目的事業主管機關經過生態檢核後有其標準所在，所以目前不用經過環評。"],["陳委員菁徽：但有許多人已經不堪其擾，因為一進去社區到處都是光電板，就像狗皮膏藥一樣。你看第六點，我曾經質詢過，蘇清泉召委也帶著環境部一起去看現在屏東是什麼樣子！你剛剛說只要經濟部核可就不用環評，但我們發現他們是砍樹來放光電板，你還把大家最在意的……很多魚塭因為放了光電板，已經變成一灘臭水，變成了這樣子！這些是你走訪中南部所看到的，也是現在中南部鄉親很在意的問題，結果修改的時候，還特別列了一個其他能源政策都沒有的但書。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是造林，而且一個是平地，一個是山坡地。例如蘇委員說的就是山坡地，凡十五公頃以上或超過20Mega就要環評，基本上有一定的但書。不過那是早期所弄的，那時確實沒有任何限制，現在已經有了，也加嚴了。"],["陳委員菁徽：你提到光電板的量，還說已經有但書。其實近幾年光電板不但越來越多，從108年到112年，屋頂型已經比地面型還多，甚至超過併網的一半，結果你竟然還變相加上但書？113年、114年、115年你會怎麼預期？屋頂型會不會越來越多？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上屋頂型應該是被鼓勵的，因為並非改變現有農地或新開發林地，所以屋頂型基本上是被鼓勵的，而且我們的獎勵措施……"],["陳委員菁徽：雖然鼓勵，但也需要受到環境部的規範啊！"],["彭部長啓明：基本上目前不用做，因為屋頂型的量不會太大，且都是個別、個別小的……"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛已經說過它占了併網的一半！你們在預告的時候有附上email，還說於60日內提供建議等等。為什麼我會問你這件事？因為我們收到來自中南部一位阿伯的陳情，他說已經受不了了，不僅社區裡到處都是，而且還蓋在水溝上，環境部根本沒有管制。阿伯在去年8月把整封信貼給我們，信中講到，很多屋頂型光電其實是假屋頂型，因為設置條件比較寬鬆，就故意蓋了一個屋頂。明明根本不需要屋頂，只是為了做屋頂型，所以硬是蓋了鐵皮屋屋頂，反而妨害了下面的生態。由於屋頂型不需要環境部檢核，費率也比地面型高，成了變相的發財之道，難怪申請量暴增！結果你們所公告的草案，竟然直接免去屋頂型的環評，成為大漏洞！因此，該民眾希望能將以上建議納入，並且考慮修正。部長，這封信被已讀不回，實在讓我搞不清楚！你們叫大家寄信到你們所公告的信箱，說要參考大家的修正意見，結果又已讀不回，請問你們到底有沒有納入？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這點我們會再跟能源署協調，因為屋頂型光電的生態檢核機制由能源署所主管，所以我們會再來了解，好不好？至少就這幾個案例及未來政策。"],["陳委員菁徽：請問你們在這段期間是不是有陸續收到許多意見？有沒有？你們有回復嗎？還是全部都沒有回復？"],["呂副司長雅雯：跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到的公開徵詢意見一事，是我們在預告期間所蒐集的各界意見。我們蒐集意見後，其實也有召開公聽研商會，並與各相關行政機關做研究。因此並非所有收到的陳情意見都會在最後修法定案時採納，畢竟需要綜合很多意見去考量。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道你們不一定要採納，但你們可能需要回復一下。"],["呂副司長雅雯：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：本來阿伯是希望帶你們去看他的社區或是拍一些照片給你們看，但你們沒有回復，甚至最後就直接上路！"],["呂副司長雅雯：是，會後我們再了解一下，其實我們最後有針對很多意見做了回應表，就委員所提到的案例，我們會去了解一下陳情人的意見，看我們是不是有收到。"],["陳委員菁徽：我再繼續追蹤屋頂型的問題。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請王育敏委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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2021年因為每五年會有國家報告幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在那空汙又對兒童影響這麼大為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為"},{"start":177.308,"end":201.829,"text":"你剛剛講的事實上是單點的一些零散的法規所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的那請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點而且研議在環境基本法名列兒童最佳利益的保障條款"},{"start":203.035,"end":232.795,"text":"因為這過去本來就應該按照兒權公益四大原則去盤點你所有法規不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的所以也想問部長你這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程好委員這個再給我們再研議一下因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有但是委員特別提到的比較長期特別是空污整個整體的危害特別弱勢的可能還有一帶進步的空間那這個部分我們會再來研議一下好不好"},{"start":233.195,"end":258.795,"text":"就是說因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區現在都是屬於一種政策型的我們在希望有建立這個制度但是還沒有入法來做這個事情因為明年2026年又是要交第三次國家報告的時候我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色始終都沒有看到而且26號意見書已經都出來了氣候權本來就是孩子的基本的權利那你不能給他一個"},{"start":259.884,"end":275.844,"text":"連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學可是我們相對的來看其他國家那既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任所以我們不能忽略兒童我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護這是國際的公式"},{"start":277.202,"end":305.072,"text":"所以我們鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空屋的防治做得非常的完整是對於幼兒園小學比一般場所高標準可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些甚至他們在2019年修正了我們的學校保健法當然這是教育部的責任來明訂學校的校長要協助學校要空氣品質管理甚至中央要有補助去強制裝所謂空氣清淨機"},{"start":306.512,"end":330.202,"text":"還有擴大整個的範圍也就是監測範圍甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛這也是上次我提醒說否則每次都說只是臭味也沒有檢測到什麼樣的一個有害物質讓他們可是只要臭味的話事實上我們在那邊整天在那學習的話效果並不是這麼的好甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難來動用中央"},{"start":332.343,"end":348.568,"text":"預算的改善校園的設備這其他國家做的所以在這邊想問部長環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求同步參考韓國的經驗從法規預算行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正"},{"start":349.548,"end":369.785,"text":"這個沒有問題不過我也跟委員說因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多啦我們PM2.5大概平均是12.8去年那韓國大概還有20左右所以韓國的確遇到重大甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多但是委員的意見非常的好那我們會列入一個參考來加入演繹"},{"start":370.37,"end":391.406,"text":"可是你說他很嚴重所以他啟動可是我們沒有他很嚴重我們一直完全也都沒有在做我知道我知道 讓我覺得百思不解今天尤其是我們已經兒權公約國內法化還這麼不注重兒少的權益那學校呢為什麼這個通報通報為什麼這麼難這麼久部長所以想請你正視一個問題我們的學校老師是來教書的不是來幫你做那個"},{"start":400.997,"end":427.616,"text":"污染偵查員的從2014年的文府國小到現在2025年的獅子國中這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重如果你講說台灣的沒有韓國這麼嚴重可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話那你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢可是學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理沒下文最常聽到的就是臭味不等於污染"},{"start":428.317,"end":438.668,"text":"請再觀察看看啊結果就是老師自己記錄校長自己陳情奔走這樣是對的嗎為什麼老師要是在做環境單位的工作做你環境部"},{"start":439.482,"end":465.703,"text":"我們的環保局的一個工作那這些案例從西樹林獅子國中通報多年無效甚至很多老師都想放棄了部長我認為這不是一個個案是制度的問題所以部長我想問的更直接一點現在學校校園空氣品質警示防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局跟公害專線通報後環保單位有主動"},{"start":466.824,"end":494.066,"text":"在做追蹤列管嗎有我們是主要是環管署他們是屬於稽查的單位他們會去經理部長要回答之前要先看獅子國中是他們2019陸續回應最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才說而且處理到現在2025年你如果講說有那另外一個環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色你說有的話那你們平常真的在對那個環保局做了什麼事情"},{"start":494.489,"end":507.361,"text":"最主要是針對一些例如說工業區特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊其實大概有100多個學校我們都有重點的來協助來輔導為什麼人家獅子國中2019年到現在2025年幾年了因為它那個是有一個曆青的工廠它是一個月工作兩天所以在那兩天當中所以我們在等那兩天我上次也提過因為"},{"start":518.251,"end":542.046,"text":"最後就變成學生要往外移 弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件這件事情應該要去處理所以部長也要問的是學校通報那個污染後常常只有稽查就沒有後續稽查完就結束了所以老師學生還得自己蒐證上街頭才能換來處理那你環境部在哪"},{"start":543.106,"end":565.733,"text":"所以部長如果罪證確鑿的話這樣子是不是還要再走花好多年做體制外的申訴你認為現行制度真的有效嗎如果你剛剛講說環保局有在處理那為什麼我剛剛講私子國中都是一直2019年到2025年所以如果有效的話為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐自力救濟而且一定要"},{"start":566.073,"end":594.338,"text":"透過報導者來報導或者是新聞媒體來揭露所以請問一下環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空屋的SOP是整個通報系統我們目前是針對我們其實在之前就有發布公司場所對學校影響的會加重裁罰不過委員剛剛特別提到的這個有一些敏感高敏感的大概100多間學校我們會再來想辦法說是不是有一些更好的措施"},{"start":594.818,"end":623.518,"text":"因為過去其實我也是常常會從這個媒體上面看到這樣的一個訊息所以未來我們會跟教育部來研議如果遇到空污事件或公關事件通報程序能不能再更好一點特別是所謂的弱勢在這種所謂的工廠周邊的學校所以我們會加強的首先會來處理所以部長也不是像你報告當中你今天提出來書面報告裡面第六頁講說環境部就去編寫一個校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊因為"},{"start":624.278,"end":653.223,"text":"外部的空氣飄進來的話你叫我怎麼自主管理所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制不是把問題又丟回去給學校讓校長老師疲於奔命這個你們認不認同認同那所以你願不願意重新檢視我們環境部在這個流程的角色是不是主動扛起更多的責任邀請相關部會一起規劃"},{"start":654.923,"end":673.082,"text":"好可以再來大家也要再提一次環境部還有個缺席就是我要追問關於工業區周邊的學校的防護在2018年6年前教育部就的防護校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單加強"},{"start":675.024,"end":701.017,"text":"監測 稽查 主動協助學校通報啊協助學校 而不是學校自己來跟你們通報是你要協助學校通報但我們看到的是確實要老師申訴最近媒體通報環境部才會動所以部長這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪有沒有固定監測 尤其我現在上面列的那幾個學校協調更新 甚至還是只上彈兵或者是對教育部已讀不回"},{"start":702.931,"end":724.267,"text":"這個委員這個部分我們是有列管但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題我會在一點時間我再來瞭解好不好好那就麻煩環境部是不是第一個先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單啟動修法跟凝聚政策因為明年"},{"start":725.607,"end":747.315,"text":"2026年本來就是第三次國家報告要交你們不要再做缺席第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的一個角色在所以SOP要訂出來再申訴機制那再加強工業區的周邊的中小學的盤點然後空氣品質的監控的一個項目來針對我們高污染熱區"},{"start":749.13,"end":767.912,"text":"建立長期的監控跟資源的協助不要像你這邊如果是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願你的系列裡面活動裡面第七頁想說好空氣許願池我覺得應該請俄哨來跟部長來許願希望能夠真的是落實以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":311,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時27分）主席，麻煩環境部部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。部長，我們今天還是要再來討論，環境部好像看不到兒少，然聽不到學校的污染求救，所以我們來看一下。部長，延續我3月18的質詢，我想在這邊跟你確認一個共識問題，孩子應該不是成人的縮影、縮小版，因為他們的器官還在發育，而且他們呼吸的速率、速度事實上是成人的兩倍，而且活動量大然後體重又輕，所以對於空氣污染的吸收跟傷害比成人想像得還嚴重多了，這是世界衛生組織、歐盟的研究都有提出來的，空污對於成長階段的兒童健康影響會更長期，而且是不可逆的。部長，想問你，這事實上是上次我們就有的基本共識，對不對？認同吧！"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯！"],["林委員月琴：既然認同的話，我們就來看一個很大的問題。我上次質詢就有提過室內空品的空品法，竟然沒有把高中以下的學校列入，我認為這不是個別疏忽，而是環境部整個政策都非常忽略兒少，為什麼這樣提？兒權公約在2014年國內施行法通過之後，再1年的時間要提出優先檢視清單，3年內要修法、5年內要完全符合公約，那意味著什麼？意味著2020年應該要完全符合，當然你會說環境部事實上2023年才成立，可是話再說回來，前面還有環保署，所以就想到底環境部做了什麼？有沒有提出過兒童優先盤點的法規？有沒有根據CRC這一些提過任何的修法跟行政配套？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我非常贊同委員這樣的看法，目前我自己看到我們過去對於委員所說CRC的方式，我們在空污法裡面有針對一些高中，還有一些學校在緊急應變時的處理，的確有一些特別的法案條例出來，屬於這種突發應變事故時的處理的確是有針對校園，但是以整個空污法裡面還沒有，我們也希望未來在修空污法的時候，能夠特別再強化這一塊。"],["林委員月琴：你知道這中間經歷2017年、2021年，因為每五年會有國家報告要繳，幾乎都沒有看到你們的角色在，那空污又對兒童影響這麼大，為什麼環境部沒有具體的作為？你剛剛所講的，事實上是單點的、一些零散的法規，所以我具體建議除了前次要求環境部主動納入兒少權法的主管機關以外，因為現在兒少權法事實上你們是沒有角色的，請環境部依據公約全面啟動法規盤點，而且研議在環境基本法明列兒童最佳利益的保障條款。因為過去本來就應該要按照兒權公約四大原則去盤點所有法規，不要變成兒童權益在環境部事實上是失蹤的，所以也想問部長，這部分你願不願意啟動並提出時程？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個再給我們研議一下，因為第一個是我們針對緊急應變事故的時候有，但是委員特別提到的比較長期，特別是空污整體危害弱勢者，可能還有待進步的空間，這個部分我們會再來研議一下，好不好？因為包含了噪音或是空污等等國中小像空品維護區，現在都是屬於一種政策型的，我們希望建立這個制度，但是還沒有入法來做這個事情。"],["林委員月琴：好。因為明（2026）年又是要交第3次國家報告的時候，我不希望你們又是一個缺席的角色，始終都沒有看到。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員月琴：而且第26號意見書已經都出來了，氣候權本來就是孩子的基本權利，不能連他在上學的時候都沒有辦法安心上學。","可是我們相對的來看其他國家，既然保障全民健康是環境部的責任，所以我們不能忽略兒童，我上次就提醒過需要的是更高標準的保護，這是國際的共識。鄰近國家韓國這幾年對於兒童空污的防制做得非常完整，對於幼兒園、小學比一般場所高標準，可是你看我們連高中以下都沒有訂這些，甚至他們在2019年修正了學校保健法，當然這是教育部的責任，明定學校校長要協助學校空氣品質管理，甚至中央有補助教室強制裝空氣清淨機，還有擴大整個監測範圍，甚至學校周遭應該有流動的監測車輛，這也是上次我提醒，否則每次都只說是臭味，卻沒有檢測到什麼樣有害物質。可是只要有臭味的話，事實上整天在那邊學習，效果並不是這麼好，甚至政府還可以宣布社會災難，動用中央預算改善校園設備，這是其他國家做的。所以想問部長，環境部是不是願意延續我剛才的要求，同步參考韓國經驗，從法規、預算、行政命令這三個層次啟動全面的盤點跟修正？"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個沒有問題。不過我也跟委員說，因為韓國的空污比我們糟很多，我們PM2.5去年大概平均是12.8μg/m3，韓國大概還有20μg/m3左右，所以韓國的確遇到重大……甚至他們還有來自於中國大陸的沙塵暴，所以其實他們的空污事件比我們多很多。但是委員的意見非常好，我們會列入參考並加入研議。"],["林委員月琴：你說它很嚴重，所以他要啟動，雖然我們沒有他們那麼嚴重……"],["彭部長啓明：我們還可以更好。"],["林委員月琴：可是我們也是完全都沒有在做。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我知道。"],["林委員月琴：這讓我覺得百思不解，尤其是我們已經將兒權公約國內法化，還這麼不注重兒少權益。","學校為什麼空污通報為什麼這麼難、這麼久？部長，所以想請你正視一個問題，學校老師是來教書的，不是來幫你做污染偵查員的，從2014年的文府國小，到現在2025年的獅子國中，這些學校事後都被證實污染嚴重，你說臺灣沒有韓國這麼嚴重，可是有些學校如果比韓國嚴重的話，你為什麼都沒有一些積極的處置呢？學校和校長當初的通報卻都是沒有人理、沒下文，最常聽到的就是「臭味不等於污染，請再觀察看看」，結果就是老師自己記錄、校長自己陳情奔走，這樣是對的嗎？為什麼老師在做環境單位的工作，做環境部、環保局的工作？重溪、樹林、獅子國中等這些案例通報多年無效，甚至很多老師都想放棄了。部長，我認為這不是一個個案，是制度的問題，所以我想問得更直接一點，現在學校校園空氣品質警示及防護計畫要求學校通報當地環保局及撥打公害專線，通報後，環保單位有主動追蹤列管嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們主要是環管署，他們是屬於稽查的單位，他們會去盡力。"],["林委員月琴：部長，要回答之前要先看，獅子國中從2019陸續反映，最近是有媒體踢爆之後你們才做，而且處理到現在2025年，你如果講說有……另外，環境部到底在這個流程扮演什麼角色？你說有的話，平常環保局做了什麼事情？"],["彭部長啓明：最主要是針對一些例如工業區、特殊性的工業區或是重大污染源旁邊，其實大概有一百多個學校，我們都有重點協助、輔導。"],["林委員月琴：為什麼獅子國中從2019年反映到現在2025年？幾年了？"],["彭部長啓明：因為它是有一個瀝青工廠，一個月工作兩天，所以在那兩天當中、所以我們也在等那兩天，我們會去抓……"],["林委員月琴：我上次也提過，因為最後就變成學生要往外移，弱勢的孩子根本沒有條件，這件事情應該要去處理，所以部長，也要問的是學校通報污染後，常常只有稽查就沒有後續，稽查完就結束了，所以老師、學生還得自己蒐證，上街頭才能換來處理，那環境部在哪？部長，如果罪證確鑿的話，這樣子是不是還要再花好多年走體制外的申訴？你認為現行制度真的有效嗎？如果是你剛剛說的環保局有在處理，為什麼我剛剛講獅子國中2019年到2025年都是一直……如果有效的話，為什麼這些學校真的要自己苦撐、自力救濟，而且一定要透過報導者報導或者是新聞媒體揭露？請問一下，環境部現在有沒有一套針對校園空污通報系統的SOP？"],["彭部長啓明：我們其實之前就有發布公私場所危害空品……對學校有影響的會加重裁罰。不過委員剛剛特別提到，有一些高敏感的大概一百多間學校，我們會再來想辦法是不是有一些更好的措施。因為過去其實我也常常會從媒體上面看到這樣的訊息，所以未來我們會跟教育部研議，如果遇到空污事件或公害事件通報程序能不能再更好一點，特別是所謂的弱勢在這種工廠周邊的學校，所以我們會加強的首先來處理。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長，也不是像你今天提出的書面報告裡面第6頁所講，環境部編寫校園室內空氣品質自主管理維護指引手冊，因為外部的空氣飄進來的話，你叫我怎麼自主管理？所以我認為環保單位是不是應該要主動列管追蹤、公開處理狀況及再申訴的機制，不是把問題又丟回去給學校，讓校長、老師疲於奔命，這個你們認不認同？"],["彭部長啓明：認同。"],["林委員月琴：你願不願意重新檢視環境部在這個流程的角色，是不是主動扛起更多的責任，邀請相關部會一起規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["林委員月琴：再來，當然也要再提一次，環境部還有一個缺失，就是我要追問關於工業區周邊學校的防護，在2018年，六年前教育部校園防護計畫早就建議環境部要協助盤點工業區3公里範圍的中小學名單，加強監測稽查，主動協助學校通報，而不是學校自己來跟你們通報，是你要協助學校通報，我們看到的卻是要老師申訴，最近媒體通報，環境部才會動。部長，這個防護計畫的盤點到底執行到哪？有沒有固定監測？尤其我現在上邊列的那幾個學校協調更新，甚至還是紙上談兵或者是對教育部已讀不回。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個部分我們是有列管，但是這個程序上能不能更好一點或更直接解決這個問題，我會再用一點時間來了解，好不好？"],["林委員月琴：好，那就麻煩環境部，第一個，先把兒童納入環境部的政策核心，依兒權公約提出環境部優先盤點清單，啟動修法跟凝聚政策，因為明（2026）年本來就是第3次國家報告要交，你們不要再缺席。第二個是建立學校空污通報跟協助機制來強化環保單位的角色，所以那個SOP還有再申訴機制要訂出來，再加強盤點工業區周邊中小學空氣品質監控的項目，針對高污染熱區建立長期監控跟資源協助，不要像……是不是可以請孩子跟你們許願？你們的系列活動裡面，在第7頁講到「好空氣許願池」，我覺得應該請兒少來跟部長許願，希望能夠真的落實。以上，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳菁徽委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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punishment的概念資源就被壓縮了那因為台北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了那部長我不知道你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了"},{"start":99.064,"end":123.735,"text":"你覺得你準備好了嗎包委員其實川普總統在第一任總統的時候我就一直關注他的推特其實我對他的確是很努力的在知道川普總統的想法那他上任之後他有很多的作為包含他的這個內閣的閣員包含美國的新任的環保署署長我們的確環境部是有一個部長室的團隊每天都在看每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響我們的確是"},{"start":124.835,"end":152.655,"text":"真的是每天每天都在處理這個事情所以我必須說準備是一定要準備但是是不是能夠馬上應對的到幫助產業這個要一段時間但是我們積極的在做這個事情因為我個人他退出的時候因為在他一上任就幾百個那個行政命令他都已經簽署了所以我現在認為說環境部應該要是比其他的事情就是說應該有更早的這個準備那我為什麼會這樣問呢因為4月7號您出席一場活動你有提到四大對策"},{"start":153.996,"end":173.691,"text":"那你說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟的碳邊境調整機制就是你剛剛談的C邊所以目前對台灣業者來說你有期待說先存活下來會比這個淨零永續更重要這件事沒有人會否認因為這個是一個等於一個急來的一個海嘯"},{"start":174.932,"end":198.769,"text":"但是你也有說過說淨零目標不變,剛剛你的報告也有提到,那這個我們是非常支持的所以您覺得這個如果環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎?就是剛剛你提到是一個有個數字是2026年5月嗎?就是如期開徵碳費嗎?就是今年1月1號開始定價了,然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用"},{"start":200.151,"end":212.069,"text":"但是在這個川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下那你有辦法覺得說環保政策也顧及了那麼廠商也能夠存活嗎"},{"start":213.257,"end":240.079,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是當然我們一開始32%的時候其實基本上這個衝擊遠高於西本而且大的非常的多所以我們其實是嚴正理待那當然啦現在的情況是一直還在滾動的在修正當中我們還不知道最後如果最後呢對於一些廠商而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣例如說現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業那的確呢我們這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助能夠來幫助傳統的產業"},{"start":241.4,"end":267.215,"text":"部長我再提醒您因為川普把CBAN當作一種關稅壁壘他的概念是這樣他是一個關稅障礙所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘那你現在在90天當中這個談判要到了90天的談判期間你有辦法堅持到最後嗎你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎就是如果美方要求我們取消所謂的"},{"start":269.016,"end":289.495,"text":"他認為的關稅的壁壘因為他認為CBAN是一個障礙你有把握嗎這個我們未來會仔細的看歐盟的CBAN的影響因為目前CBAN只有兩個國家有我認為他一定會跟歐盟提出這個要求這個歐盟啟動的CBAN所以他也會跟我們談這件事情"},{"start":290.496,"end":307.071,"text":"不過報告委員其實歐盟的CBAN也經歷了非常長期27到28個國家大概有十幾年的一個討論所以它在利潤的基礎還有它的可執行性是比歐盟完整的多那就是川普會講道理的意思囉是不是因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則"},{"start":308.432,"end":334.85,"text":"因為我們台灣未來要做生意不是只有美國歐洲也很重要其他各國也很重要所以我們必須用還是有這個社會責任的角度地球公民的責任來看這件事情我想我是希望說我們在談判努力談判當中你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛有一些點包括補貼他不要嘛那個關稅壁壘他不要嘛那這個東西你要想辦法又要去談判又要去這個讓說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛這個部分那這個"},{"start":336.191,"end":364.548,"text":"部長我現在想跟你談另外一個問題這個我的題目叫環保集團的五軌搬運法那我想請部長說明目前環境部輕運機器及時GPS的追蹤系統您滿意現在目前的整體運作跟查核嗎您對這套系統您熟悉嗎您滿意嗎包委員我們目前有在爭取行政院的我們下一期的預算行政院已經通過了但是預算還在爭取當中我們下一期整個完整的這種智慧圍籬會做得更好"},{"start":365.509,"end":371.073,"text":"為什麼我會這樣問因為前幾天我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會在桃園環保犯罪的現場你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表就是說這個是很OK可是我想告訴你在桃園環保這個桃園現在發生一個案例我想跟你就叫土石方搬運的問題我等一下會放出一段影片這段影片我稍微說明一下"},{"start":397.009,"end":422.576,"text":"他沒有按規定把車內的這個土石方就放在這個堆置場他就繞過跑掉了繞過蓋個黑布就轉走了他等於就是就是虛孕故事一場就是欺騙嘛就我現在就是定格等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來那個中間那個紅色的他就是第一輛那我大家可以看前面兩輛就是說我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下影片"},{"start":435.134,"end":460.561,"text":"部長,我不曉得你們看清楚,我可以再放一片,因為才12秒他轉進來,然後蓋到黑布,然後轉走了他作假,他根本沒有到在這個堆置場啊我想再放12秒,再放一次給大家看一下這個環保署的所有官員進來,出去的時候加了黑布跑掉了,根本沒有放在堆置場"},{"start":462.568,"end":477.201,"text":"這個幾年前我就有放過但不一樣的影片現在就是民眾這個檢舉的所以短短一分鐘這兩輛這卡車的上面土石放偷天換日神不知鬼不覺的就把它拿出去拿出去做什麼不是爛到就是去賣啊"},{"start":478.462,"end":490.836,"text":"去高額獲利啊那我想了解為什麼環境部你已經跟內政部已經攜手強化追蹤這個營建剩餘的土石方的管制那這個離譜是還是發生了這個現在我們正在進行當中我們近期的也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方整個自己境內自己"},{"start":499.025,"end":510.781,"text":"市內 縣內無法完整處理的那我們進行跟他們討論我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們在整合各個部會還有中央跟地方"},{"start":514.305,"end":529.978,"text":"其實報導者在2020就有告訴你說他從這個國土變異點找到台南屏東桃園都有發現這個爛到就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者他這個就是運輸的部分那土石方的那個資料堆置場這個是存放部分他們互相勾結"},{"start":530.979,"end":535.603,"text":"然後繞一圈就出廠再去爛道那一來規避GPS的監測那一來從中獲取暴利很重要前年8月雲林雲林的檢查跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣連單繞廠偽造不實連單的違法行為那部長你去年3月就上路的營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理那其中電子連單的措施及工作"},{"start":559.542,"end":585.456,"text":"你是不是可以做到解決解除這個業者規避追蹤器偽造不實言單跟廢棄物被濫到的問題你的做法有沒有辦法解除這個問題啊好 包委員這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作那整個細節呢委員再給我們一點點時間因為我們談得差不多了一些具體的措施也即將會提出來那我們也跟地方全面的都在談合作所以再給我們一點時間我們完成之後會對您公布我們有一套做法"},{"start":585.876,"end":611.449,"text":"因為這個目前委員說的都是事實大概一年台灣有一千萬噸左右是流到這種爛道的沒有去處的地方不只爛道他後來如果再用在營建的話那這個品質堪慮啊對沒錯那部長這個其實這很多年了啦你現在如果說還是速度要快啦我也希望你後來會後可以給我一個時間表就是說我想了解因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就放過一次而且是舊的資料現在又有新的資料還繼續啊"},{"start":613.429,"end":635.455,"text":"這個未來希望委員可以多支持因為這個事情是台灣長久幾十年來沒有解決的事情還是要面對嘛不然我們就在教育大家如果你不處理我們等於在掩護他們的話我們等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢這個是我最痛恨的事如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分不復法的部分那等於說我這樣可以賺錢啊我這樣做法可以賺錢啊對不對合法的那個營業廠也是這樣做啊部長請多努力好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":643.186,"end":643.206,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，剛剛我有仔細聽你的報告，現在大概相當完整，不過很多還在研議階段。川普總統拋出的高額關稅雖然還有不定數及變數，但是大家都要嚴正以待，因為我們也不知道臺灣的籌碼跟我們的談判能力如何。剛剛你自己也報告到，從他第一次擔任總統時就宣布要退出巴黎協定，因為他覺得這個不是那麼重要，這次他等於再次宣布要退出巴黎協定，而且這個時間是1月，就是他就職的時候，所以我認為在這個部分環境部應該提早就要有所準備，當然關稅是後來的事情。再者，你剛剛也報告臺灣推動淨零轉型產業其實還是會有一些挑戰，尤其是正在推動淨零轉型的關鍵出口產業。臺灣企業本來就要面對碳費跟綠能轉型的內部成本，現在又要面對可能出口美國被課以額外的關稅，它等於是一種雙重處罰，有一點double punishment的概念，資源就被壓縮了。因為臺北市市長蔣萬安說他準備好了，部長，我不知道，你會不會覺得你自己也準備好了？你覺得你準備好了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實川普總統在擔任第一任總統的時候，我就一直關注他的Twitter，其實我的確是很努力想知道川普總統的想法，比如他上任之後有很多的作為，包含他的內閣閣員及美國新任的環保署署長，的確環境部部長室有一個團隊每天都在看，每天都在分析他可能對我們的影響，我們的確真的是每天、每天都在處理這個事情，所以我必須說準備是一定要準備，但是是否能夠馬上應對到並幫助產業，這需要一段時間，而我們積極的在做這個事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為他說要退出時，在他一上任就有幾百個行政命令，都已經簽署了，所以我認為對比其他的事情，環境部應該有更早的準備。我為什麼會這樣問？因為4月7號您出席一場活動有提到4大對策，您說美國關稅的風波衝擊遠遠超過歐盟碳邊境調整機制，就是你剛剛談的CBAM，所以目前對臺灣業者來說，你有提到先存活下來會比淨零永續更重要，這件事沒有人會否認，因為這等於是一個急來的海嘯，但是你有說過淨零目標不變，剛剛你的報告也有提到，這個我們是非常支持的，所以您覺得環境部真的可以如期開徵碳費嗎？剛剛你提到一個數字是在2026年5月，就是你們會如期開徵碳費嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：今年1月1號開始定價了，然後明年5月31號要繳今年的費用。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是在川普透過高額關稅要強迫把製造業帶回美國這種期待之下，你覺得有辦法環保政策顧及了，廠商也能夠存活嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是當然一開始32%的時候，基本上這個衝擊遠高於CBAM，而且大非常多，所以我們其實是嚴陣以待。當然現在的情況是一直還在滾動修正當中，我們還不知道最後，如果最後對於一些廠商……而且每一個廠商影響的程度不一樣，例如現在可能比較辛苦的就是所謂的傳統製造業，的確我們在這個部分也會跟經濟部一起來協助，希望能夠幫助傳統產業。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我再提醒你，因為川普把CBAM當作一種關稅壁壘，他的概念是這樣，它是一個關稅障礙，所以我現在談的就是碳關稅的壁壘。那現在在90天當中的談判，90天的談判期間要到了，你有辦法堅持到最後嗎？你有辦法說服國人跟行政院嗎？就是如果美方要求我們取消它所認為的關稅壁壘，因為它認為CBAM是一個barrier、一個障礙，那你有把握嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們未來會仔細地看歐盟CBAM的影響，因為目前CBAM只有兩個國家有。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是看歐盟。我認為它一定會跟歐盟提出要求，因為是歐盟啟動CBAM，所以它也會跟我們談這件事情。"],["彭部長啓明：對，不過報告委員，其實歐盟的CBAM也經歷了非常長期，包含27到28個國家，大概有十幾年的討論，所以它在立論的基礎還有可執行性完整得多。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就川普會講道理的意思囉！是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為他打破了整個全球的遊戲規則。"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為臺灣未來要做生意不是只有美國，歐洲也很重要，其他各國也很重要，所以我們還是必須用社會責任的角度、地球公民的責任來看這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我是希望我們在努力談判當中，你要知道這個就碰到他的痛點嘛！有一些點，包括補貼，他不要嘛！關稅壁壘，他不要嘛！這個東西你要想辦法，要談判、又要說服國人跟行政院可以支持嘛！","部長，我現在想跟你談另外一個問題，我的題目叫環保集團的五鬼搬運法，我想請部長說明，目前環境部清運機具即時GPS的追蹤系統，您滿意現在的整體運作跟查核嗎？對這套系統，您熟悉嗎？您滿意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我目前有在爭取行政院下一期的預算，行政院已經通過了，但是預算還在爭取當中，我們下一期整個完整的智慧圍籬會做得更好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，為什麼我會這樣問？因為前幾天，我看到貴部有舉辦了一個很棒的露天記者會，在桃園環保犯罪的現場，你召開了一個打擊犯罪的成果發表，這個是很OK。可是我想告訴你，桃園現在發生一個案例，想跟您就教土石方搬運的問題。我等一下會放出一段影片，這段影片我稍微說明一下，就是裡面會出現4部砂石車，它沒有按規定把車內的土石方放在堆置場，就繞過、跑掉了，繞過、蓋個黑布就轉走了，等於就是虛應故事一場，就是欺騙嘛！我現在就是定格，等一下大家看現在定格那個紅色冒出來、中間紅色的就是第一輛，大家可以看前面是兩輛，我現在開始播放影片讓部長看一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我不知道你有沒有看清楚，我可以再放一遍，因為才12秒。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我知道……"],["陳委員昭姿：它轉進來……"],["彭部長啓明：對，我知道，這個叫繞單。"],["陳委員昭姿：對不對？然後蓋黑布，然後轉走了，它作假，根本沒有倒在這個堆置場，是不是？我想再放12秒，再放一次給環保署的所有官員看一下，進來、出去的時候加了黑布，跑掉了，根本沒有放在堆置場，這個幾年前我就有放過，但是不一樣的影片，現在是民眾檢舉的。短短1分鐘卡車上面的土石方偷天換日、神不知鬼不覺地就把它拿出去，拿出去做什麼？不是濫倒就是去賣啊！去高額獲利啊！那我想了解為什麼既然環境部已經跟內政部攜手強化追蹤營建剩餘的土石方管制，這個離譜事還是發生了？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個現在我們正在進行當中，我們近期也拜訪了桃園還有幾個這種營建土石方，自己境內、自己市內、縣內無法完整處理的，我們進行跟他們討論，我們未來會有一個很大的平台來做這個事那委員再給我們一點點時間，因為我們在整合各個部會，還有中央跟地方……"],["陳委員昭姿：現在有合法的業者……部長，其實報導者在2020就有說從國土變異點找到臺南、屏東、桃園都有發現濫倒，就是營建剩餘的土石方發生過土方業者是運輸的部分，土石方的堆置場，則是存放的部分，他們互相勾結，然後繞一圈就出場再去濫倒，一來規避GPS的監測，二來從中獲取暴利。很重要，前年8月，雲林的警察跟環保局也都有查到合法的土資廠販賣聯單、繞場、偽造不實聯單的違法行為。部長，去年3月營建及裝修廢棄物流向管理就上路，其中電子單聯單的措施、稽核工作，是不是可以做到解除業者規避追蹤器、偽造不實聯單跟廢棄物被濫倒的問題？你的作法有沒有辦法解除這個問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是環境部跟內政部跨部會在合作，整個細節請委員再給我們一點的時間，因為我們談得差不多了，一些具體的措施也即將會提出來，我們也跟地方全面都在談合作，所以再給我們一點時間，我們完成之後會對您公布，我們有一套作法。因為目前委員說的都是事實，大概一年臺灣有1,000萬噸左右是流到這種濫倒的、沒有去處的地方。"],["陳委員昭姿：不只濫倒，它後來如果再用在營建的話，那這個品質堪慮。"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，其實這很多年了，現在還是速度要快，我也希望你會後可以給我一個時間表，我想了解。因為我已經在前任部長的時候我就爆過一次而且是舊的資料，現在又有新的資料，還繼續啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，未來希望委員可以多支持，因為這個事情是臺灣長久、幾十年來沒有解決的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是要面對嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，我知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：不然我們就再教育大家，如果你不處理，等於在掩護他們，也等於告訴大家怎麼樣做壞事可以賺錢，這是我最痛恨的事。如果我們不去處理犯罪的部分、不法的部分，等於這樣可以賺錢、這樣的做法可以賺錢，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：合法的營業場也是這樣做啊！部長請多努力。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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謝主席那那個因為我還是在這邊再次謝謝部長幫助台東所以我今天就不請您上台了首先我想先請我請那個勞動部信任職安署林署長"},{"start":43.619,"end":65.747,"text":"來麻煩林署長林副署長林玉堂林副署長是這樣子我想先請教您說是否贊成開放植栽報告我想了解一下您的態度"},{"start":71.013,"end":87.126,"text":"有關職業災害的資料的透明化跟公開揭露這個是我們紅部長一直在要我們這邊在做努力的方向目前其實在部裡面目前的一個有關職業災害的資訊的揭露已經有很多平台"},{"start":88.027,"end":114.958,"text":"但是呢並沒有把整個報告書整個送到這個平台上因為這是涉及到這個相關的一個規範那但是個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點原因然後罰款金額等等我們在我們其他的公開平台都有放你說現在目前公告的是重大職災我們看一下你們公告的這個部分"},{"start":116.584,"end":143.738,"text":"最後最後一頁吧其實就是這麼簡單我那天已經有放過這一張了就是這個離災人數然後地點工程名稱就這樣那這個完全看不出對未來是沒有幫助的所以我接下來我再請教就是局限空間是不是室內作業"},{"start":148.508,"end":169.704,"text":"局限空間它基本上就是我們這個勞工在進出這個工作的那個場域它受限那是不是室內呢那就要看因情形而定如果說以這個建築物來講地下室裡面它就有可能會有一個所謂的這個需要一個人孔蓋打開以後人進去那這個就是局限空間是"},{"start":174.425,"end":197.288,"text":"我希望你可以不要被你們的原來的署長影響因為我的答案很簡單我的問題很簡單就是局限空間是不是室內作業是或者不是而已如果以我剛剛舉的例子就是室內作業沒有錯好那有含釋嗎"},{"start":201.28,"end":221.44,"text":"沒有特別就這個部分因為好像我們也沒有受到這樣的一個需要我們這邊有在問答因為我幫你統計了其實目前從以前到現在應該有八個那最近一個月連續發生了三件侷限空間作業時的災害包括了3月23號台中金屬表面處理業"},{"start":223.101,"end":241.429,"text":"還有清洗污水槽作業造成四人中毒昏迷兩人身體不適住院觀察還有4月10號桃園下水道罕管內從事纜線檢查作業一人被大水沖走了溺斃死亡4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟"},{"start":243.19,"end":262.65,"text":"從事這個伐機抽水作業吸入硫化氫中毒死亡總共造成36住院發生頻率有上升的情形那如何避免這個室內侷限空間的危害指安署應該要有積極的對策不曉得您認不認同我剛講的"},{"start":266.133,"end":291.792,"text":"那特別是在這個月的13日雲林縣斗六市這一家食品公司傳出了兩死公安意外那黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收的池閥機抽水時因為吸入了這個早期昏迷跌落回收池逆避那職安署的中區職安中心14日的時候有表示池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫"},{"start":292.532,"end":318.811,"text":"是這次植栽主要的原因喔那這個訊息是不是正確跟委員報告目前整個案子的詳細發生原因我們的植栽正在進行調查進行那這個是我們初步當天我們的勞檢員在案發後初步到現場初步了解的原因是不是那是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池有吧"},{"start":320.251,"end":335.379,"text":"那是不是回收池就一定會抽水那會抽水的話就容易造成這個硫化氫跑出來那這種有毒的物質事業單位跟這個勞工如果知道了你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡死亡風險的作業嗎不會"},{"start":337.756,"end":359.163,"text":"好 那這樣反應都很正常那如果這樣的案例讓所有的回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者包括外包商知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生難道他們就不會想要預防嗎應該是會吧他們也應該會去遵守安全措施吧"},{"start":360.023,"end":384.803,"text":"可是呢這樣的案例一直在發生喔所以本席才會一直請你們說要開放職災調查報告我已經講了很多次那我要再請教就是全國各種行業以及這個從事局限空間作業的勞工你們有掌握嗎你們可不可以透過這個調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的這個行職業跟勞工"},{"start":386.604,"end":414.446,"text":"是跟委員報告確實我們有跟國土署這邊內政部國土署這邊有在合作像包括下水道的這些資料等等我們有陸續在跟各部會有在做資料的一個互相的一個借解所以狀況如何你們行業別都完全有掌握嗎跟委員報告大概沒有辦法完全掌握而且還有臨時工的部分臨時工的部分你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":415.599,"end":432.538,"text":"這困難度非常高因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了特別是我們很多族人又特別臨時工又特別多那這個部分所以要請你們再加把勁那你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導"},{"start":433.917,"end":459.879,"text":"沒問題那為什麼就是說因為看來大部分的時候你們都是只會去勞動檢查然後出事了呢就調查開罰然後就沒了因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況也沒有辦法從中得到教訓所以大家不懂得預防所以同類型的這個災害就不斷的發生嘛"},{"start":461.3,"end":479.493,"text":"接下來呢發生之後接下來就是等著這個新聞報導去就是應該是說你們在調查開罰之後然後實在調查報告批示完你們就存檔了嘛"},{"start":480.455,"end":507.566,"text":"好 存檔了 因為封起來存檔了所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況那再來就是等著這個新聞報導去講這個不幸的悲劇啊好 所以這個是一個二循環那就是說這些調查報告其實是可以去個資之後那就是說為什麼不能公務使用我是覺得很莫名其妙"},{"start":508.286,"end":535.28,"text":"那其他的這個重大職災也是一樣針對特定這個暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導我相信像火災的爆炸然後墜落還有這個侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則就是要有效的定期的教育訓練那我相信沒有人是願意這個冒著生命危險去做這些工作啦"},{"start":535.72,"end":560.604,"text":"只要他们能够知道说危险是什么在哪里怎么预防那别人是怎么发生意外的我想这些都是你们这个职灾调查报告的一个非常宝贵的资讯一定要揭露那我再请教就是职灾调查报告经过你们批准之后是不是就封存在自己内部欣赏了"},{"start":562.07,"end":590.708,"text":"目前看起來好像是這樣公文報告 職災調查報告基本上到最後整個公文的最後存檔之前其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的這個宣導那確實這個光看 很多剛剛舉的那些例子光靠勞解是絕對不夠的我這樣問 因為我比較關心那個職災調查報告的部分我沒有要問你說宣導什麼東西那現在就是"},{"start":592.949,"end":619.525,"text":"剛剛就說你報告完基本上就內部封城你沒有就是完整的公告嗎沒有啊沒有完整的公布啊我們剛剛你如果忘記我可以再放一次給你看還要嗎第三次不用了吧那多久以後會把它key進資料庫對你們多久通常實在發生多久之後你們會把它key進資料庫"},{"start":620.711,"end":635.287,"text":"跟微報告我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統了所以整個都在系統裡面好那我可以請你提供這個存檔的格式給本席嗎好那再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料跟微報告這個資料旁邊的人知道嗎"},{"start":641.448,"end":650.994,"text":"我們這個系統非常龐大 從民國93年都電運到現在所以你回去看一下目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例"},{"start":653.202,"end":679.096,"text":"如果重大實災的話基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較這個應該其實大部分百分之八十有十的資訊都提供給家屬你確定都提供給家屬因為很多的家屬跟我們反映實際的案例就是說家屬還要跟你們申請也未必申請得到完整的資訊而且都非常依賴這個檢查機關或者法院來調卷"},{"start":680.896,"end":708.778,"text":"很多這樣的比例不高嗎確實是現在目前是由家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候再提供我知道啊家屬一定會找你們要但是你們到底給多少嗎我想我只是點出這個那你如果覺得說家屬跟你們調你們就給完整的資訊你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證那可能拍令很快會下來你看看"},{"start":710.713,"end":726.243,"text":"講話要很我說你答詢要很注意啦你回頭去看看啦家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊再不然又有多少是勞師動眾讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的你回去換算一下比例啊"},{"start":726.843,"end":746.628,"text":"好那我希望是說透過這一次的植栽的這個教訓悲劇可以不要再發生那最重要的是你們的資料能不能有效的應用那這個事情能不能順利的進行關鍵在於植栽署能不能開放你們就是剛剛講的這些資料那你們什麼時候才可以open data"},{"start":749.456,"end":758.798,"text":"委員應該是有在委員會的提案那這個部分我們目前正在研議也在處理說怎麼樣讓這個職業障礙的一個資料盡量公開那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議啊不會研議一輩子嗎任期都有限啊委員給我們三個月的時間好不好"},{"start":769.98,"end":784.328,"text":"我記得我質詢的要求我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久應該最多都到兩個月而已是那就兩個月是謝謝好那我如果說今天一個月你行嗎喂那就兩個月謝謝"},{"start":785.589,"end":807.314,"text":"好啦那就兩個月齁那你們好好研究 希望兩個月後就有好消息所以我最後也希望說環境部跟這個經濟部各機關齁大家可以一起來協助治安署來掌握各個事業單位的這個高風險的這個設備跟機具然後大家一起為這個室內作業的有毒物質預防曝露一起盡一份心力好謝謝謝謝陳盈委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1042,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時1分）謝謝主席。我在這邊還是再一次謝謝部長幫助臺東，今天就不請您上臺了。首先，我想先請勞動部新任職安署林署長。"],["主席：麻煩林毓堂副署長。"],["陳委員瑩：我想先請教您，是否贊成開放職災報告？我想了解一下您的態度。"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝委員垂詢。有關職業災害資料透明化跟公開揭露，是洪部長一直要我們努力的方向。目前本部有關職業災害的資訊揭露已經有很多平臺，但是並沒有把整個報告書送到平臺上，因為這個涉及到相關規範。但是將個案做成宣導資料或是災害發生的地點、原因及罰鍰金額等等，我們在其他的公開平臺都有放。"],["陳委員瑩：你說目前公告的是……"],["林副署長毓堂：重大職災。"],["陳委員瑩：我們看一下你們公告的部分，其實就是這麼簡單，我那天已經有放過這一張了，就是罹災人數，然後地點、工程名稱，就這樣，完全看不出原因，對未來是沒有幫助的。接下來我再請教，侷限空間是不是室內作業？"],["林副署長毓堂：侷限空間基本上就是勞工進出工作的那個場域受限，至於是不是室內，那就要因情形而定。如果以建築物來講，地下室裡面就有可能會有一個所謂的需要打開人孔蓋以後人進去的場域，這個就是侷限空間。"],["陳委員瑩：我希望你可以不要太被你們原來的署長影響，因為我的問題很簡單，就是侷限空間是不是室內作業？回答是或者不是而已。"],["林副署長毓堂：如果以我剛剛舉的例子，就是室內作業，沒有錯。"],["陳委員瑩：有函釋嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：沒有特別就這個部分解釋，因為好像我們沒有收到需要我們回答的請求。"],["陳委員瑩：你回頭看看，因為我幫你統計了，其實從以前到現在，應該有8個。最近一個月連續發生了3件侷限空間作業災害，包括3月23號臺中金屬表面處理業，清洗污水槽作業造成4人中毒昏迷、兩人身體不適住院觀察；還有4月10號桃園下水道涵管內從事纜線檢查作業，1人被大水沖走、溺斃死亡；4月13日斗六食品工廠兩個兄弟從事筏基抽水作業，吸入硫化氫中毒死亡，總共造成3死6住院，發生頻率有上升的情形，如何避免侷限空間的危害，職安署應該要有積極的對策，您認不認同我剛剛講的？"],["林副署長毓堂：非常認同委員的意見。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。特別是在這個月的13日，雲林縣斗六市一家食品公司傳出兩死公安意外，黃姓兄弟進行雨水回收池的筏基抽水作業，因為吸入了沼氣昏迷，跌落回收池溺斃。職安署中區職安中心14日表示，池水中含有高濃度的硫化氫，是這次職災主要的原因。這個訊息是不是正確？"],["林副署長毓堂：目前整個案子的詳細發生原因，我們正在進行職災調查，這個是當天我們的勞檢員在案發後到現場初步了解的原因。"],["陳委員瑩：是不是食品公司都有類似的回收池？有吧？"],["林副署長毓堂：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：是不是回收池就一定會抽水？會抽水的話，就容易造成硫化氫跑出來，事業單位跟勞工如果知道有這種有毒物質，你覺得他們還會冒險從事這樣有死亡風險的作業嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這樣反應都很正常嘛！如果這樣的案例，讓所有回收池可能產生硫化氫的業者，包括外包商，知道別人發生了而他們可能也會發生，難道他們就不會想要預防嗎？應該是會吧？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：他們也應該會去遵守這個安全措施吧？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：可是這樣的案例一直在發生，所以本席才會一直請你們要開放職災調查報告，我已經講了很多次。我要再請教，全國各種行業及從事侷限空間作業的勞工，你們有掌握嗎？你們可不可以透過調查或跨部會的合作來掌握可能發生的行（職）業跟勞工？"],["林副署長毓堂：確實我們有跟內政部國土署在合作，包括下水道這些資料等等，我們有陸續跟各部會互相在做資料的介接。"],["陳委員瑩：所以狀況如何？你們都完全有掌握行業別嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：大概沒有辦法完全掌握。"],["陳委員瑩：很複雜！"],["林副署長毓堂：對，很複雜。"],["陳委員瑩：而且還有臨時工的部分，你們有掌握嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：這困難度非常高，因為他有時候作業只有半天或兩個小時就離開了，所以我們……"],["陳委員瑩：特別是我們很多族人當臨時工又特別多。"],["林副署長毓堂：是，了解。"],["陳委員瑩：這個部分要請你們再加把勁。你們可不可以根據這些慘痛的教訓去宣導？"],["林副署長毓堂：沒問題。"],["陳委員瑩：看來大部分的時候，你們都只會去勞動檢查，出事了就調查開罰，然後就沒了。因為大家不知道發生的原因跟狀況，就沒有辦法從中得到教訓，所以不懂得預防，以致於同類型的災害就不斷發生，發生之後，接下來就是等著新聞報導，應該是說你們在調查開罰之後，職災調查報告批示完就存檔了。因為封起來、存檔了，所以才會有我剛剛講的那個狀況。再來就是等著新聞報導這個不幸的悲劇，所以這是一個惡循環。這些調查報告其實可以去個資之後公開，為什麼不能公務使用？我是覺得很莫名其妙，其他的重大職災也是一樣。針對特定暴露風險族群去做有效的預防宣導，我相信像火災的爆炸，然後墜落，還有侷限空間都是一樣的預防原則，就是要有效、定期的教育訓練，我相信沒有人願意冒著生命危險去做這些工作，只要他們能夠知道危險是什麼、在哪裡、怎麼預防、別人是怎麼發生意外的，我想這些都是你們職災調查報告非常寶貴的資訊，一定要揭露。我再請教，職災調查報告經過你們批准之後，是不是就封存在自己內部欣賞了？目前看起來好像是這樣。"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，職災調查報告基本上整個公文到最後存檔之前，其實我們還是會做剛剛委員關心的宣導，確實看很多剛剛舉的例子，光靠勞檢是絕對不夠的……"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣問啦，因為我比較關心職災調查報告的部分，我沒有要問你宣導什麼東西，剛剛就是你報告完基本上就內部封存，你沒有完整的公告嘛！沒有啊！沒有完整的公布啊！"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我們剛剛……你如果忘記，我可以再放一次給你看，還要嗎？第三次，不用了吧！"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員瑩：多久以後會把它key進資料庫？通常職災發生多久之後，你們會把它key進資料庫？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們從這個案子開始啟動調查就進入到資訊系統，所以整個都在系統裡面。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我可以請你提供存檔的格式給本席嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，再來你們現在的電腦存檔存了多少筆資料？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這個資料非常……"],["陳委員瑩：旁邊的人知道嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：我們這個系統非常龐大，從民國93年建立到現在。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你回去看一下。"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，目前提供給職災勞工的家屬大概有多少比例？"],["林副署長毓堂：如果重大職災的話，基本上檢查報告書會去掉很多比較……應該其實大部分百分之八、九十的資訊都提供給家屬。"],["陳委員瑩：你都去掉了？你確定都提供給家屬？"],["林副署長毓堂：家屬如果需要的話。"],["陳委員瑩：因為很多的家屬跟我們反映，實際的案例就是家屬還要跟你們申請，也未必申請得到完整的資訊，而且都非常倚賴檢察機關或者法院來調卷，這樣的比例不高嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：確實現在目前是有家屬來跟我們索取資料的時候才提供。"],["陳委員瑩：我知道啊！家屬一定會找你們要，但是你們到底給多少？我想我只是點出這個。"],["林副署長毓堂：好。"],["陳委員瑩：你如果覺得家屬跟你們調，你們就給完整的資訊，你敢在這裡拍胸脯保證？可能派令很快會下來，你看看，講話要很……我說你答詢要很注意，你回頭去看看，家屬調閱到底拿到多少資訊，再不然又有多少是勞師動眾，讓檢調機關跟法院來調卷的？你回去換算一下比例。我希望透過這一次的職災的教訓，悲劇可以不要再發生，最重要的是，你們的資料能不能有效地應用，這個事情能不能順利地進行，關鍵在於職安署能不能開放剛剛講的這些資料，你們什麼時候才可以Open Data？"],["林副署長毓堂：委員應該是有在衛環委員會提案，這個部分我們目前正在研議，也在處理看怎麼樣讓職業災害的資料儘量公開。"],["陳委員瑩：對，那你預估大概需要多久的時間研議？不會研議一輩子吧！任期都有限。"],["林副署長毓堂：委員，給我們三個月時間好不好？"],["陳委員瑩：我記得我質詢的要求，我通常不會給人家到三個月那麼久，應該最多都到兩個月而已。"],["林副署長毓堂：是，那就兩個月，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我今天如果說一個月，你行嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：委員，那就兩個月，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦，那就兩個月，你們好好研議，希望兩個月後就有好消息。所以我最後也希望環境部跟經濟部各機關，大家可以一起協助職安署來掌握各個事業單位的高風險設備跟機具，大家為室內作業有毒物質預防暴露一起盡一份心力，謝謝。"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員蘇清泉、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","一、臺版CBAM制度設計之合理性","1.產品範圍與產業衝擊評估不足","今天報告提及臺版CBAM將針對「高碳洩漏風險產品」（如鋼鐵、水泥）進行試申報，但未明確界定「高碳洩漏」的判定標準（如碳排放強度閾值或進口依存度）。若範圍過廣，可能涵蓋非戰略性產業（如食品加工），反而增加中小企業行政成本；若範圍過窄，則無法有效防止碳洩漏。","2.邊境稅收分配機制不透明","報告強調臺版CBAM旨在保障本土產業競爭力，但未說明徵收之碳關稅用途（如專項用於綠能基建或納入一般財政）。此不透明性可能引發外界質疑政策工具變相成為新稅源，削弱社會支持度。","3.與國際規則之銜接漏洞","報告參考歐盟CBAM修訂草案（豁免小型進口商），但未提及臺灣如何處理與東南亞國家（如越南、印尼）之區域貿易協定（FTA）衝突。若臺版CBAM稅率高於FTA減免幅度，可能導致出口企業轉向其他低標準市場，違背政策初衷。","二、室內空氣品質管理政策之執行","1.自主管理標章之實效性存疑","今天報告顯示，截至2025年3月全台核發2,138張自主管理標章，但未公開標章持有場所之後續抽檢合格率。若標章僅依據單次檢測結果發放（「定期檢測報告」），缺乏動態監測機制，可能滋生「認證造假」風險。例如，幼兒園透過短期空氣清淨設備改善數值通過驗收，但日常通風管理仍不合格。","2.敏弱族群保護之落差","報告強調校園、醫療場所為優先管制對象，但未針對特殊族群（如孕婦、慢性病患者）制定差異化管理標準。例如，孕婦對甲醛敏感度為一般人的2倍，但現行TVOC標準（0.56 ppm）未區分場所使用特性，可能無法有效保護高危人群。","3.物聯網監測系統之技術瓶頸","報告提出「連續自動監測」作為改善方案，但未評估臺灣既有建築物之電力負載能力。例如，老舊校舍配電系統若無法負荷即時監測設備（如CO2傳感器需24小時運轉），可能導致系統建置流於形式，或增加場所營運成本。","請針對前述內容，作文字回復，以釐清政策作為。"],["委員徐欣瑩書面質詢：","【立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次會議】","校園空污防制改革","一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","◆一、引言：從校園教室中的每一口呼吸談起","近日，環境部長彭啓明提出「空品政策白皮書」，預告成立全國空氣品質監測與預報中心，此舉雖令人期待，卻也凸顯一個長期被忽略的嚴重問題──我們的孩子，在教室中是否呼吸著乾淨的空氣？校園不該成為空污的死角，更不該成為兒童健康的風險來源。","◆「我們打造了一座座的校舍，卻忘了讓孩子們有權呼吸乾淨的空氣。」","台灣在空氣污染防制政策中，往往著重室外工業與交通排放，然而，室內空氣品質──尤其是校園環境中的空品監測與改善機制，卻長期遭到忽視。","兒童是對污染最敏感的族群，我們必須問：當空污來襲，政府是否有足夠的制度與資源，保護我們下一代的健康？","◆二、主體論述(一)：體制破碎，校園空品治理失能","【政策錯誤／制度荒謬】現行校園空氣污染管理，法規分屬多個部會（環境部、教育部、衛福部），卻缺乏協調統籌與責任整合：","●《室內空氣品質管理法》未將教育部列為主管校園空氣的機關；","●兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》也未將環境部納入主管機關；","●導致校園空品惡化時，缺乏明確權責與應變指導，僅能臨時停課、調整課表，無法系統應對。","【數據與案例分析】","●根據2013年《國民健康訪問調查》，未滿12歲兒童中有12.5%曾出現氣喘症狀。","●台灣研究顯示，兒童氣喘發作與PM2.5、PM10、NOx等空污物濃度高度相關。","●秋冬季節與石化工業區附近學校，為高風險區域。","◆「兒童不是縮小版的大人，不能用成人標準保護孩子的健康。」","【公共政策理論支持】","●Beck「風險社會」理論指出：部會分工過細導致「組織性的不負責任性」。","●當責任分散，每個部會只管一角，無人對全局負責。","【改革主張】","●修法明訂教育部與環境部為校園空品共同主管機關。","●建立跨部會「兒少空污防治小組」，定期評估政策與更新指標。","●增列學校空氣品質監測與改善的專項預算，並建立即時通報系統與應變機制。","◆三、主體論述(二)：制度缺口，兒童脆弱性未被看見","【政策錯誤／制度荒謬】","●台灣的環境風險評估多以「成人平均值」為基準，忽略兒童生理與代謝特性。","●兒童環境健康缺乏單獨政策與標準，現行應變流程僅以「學生」或「慢性病患者」作為模糊指標。","【數據與案例分析】","●WHO報告指出，全球每年1/4的五歲以下兒童死亡與環境因子有關。","●UNICEF UK揭露：英國1/3嬰兒呼吸不安全空氣，空污每年造成NHS超過4,000萬英鎊支出。","◆「兒童的呼吸，不能成為政策的盲點。」","◆「兒童的呼吸，不是成人縮小版，請看到兒童的脆弱性（vulnerability）。」","【公共政策理論支持】","●CRC第24條明定：「國家應採取適當措施，防止環境污染對兒童健康造成危害」。","●SDG目標明確指出：2030年實現「兒童納入所有政策」（CAP-2030）。","【改革主張】","●引進年齡分層風險標準，制定兒童特定空品指標與應變規範。","●參考韓國與美國加州作法，建立以兒童為核心的室內空氣品質標準與換氣參數。","●設置兒童環境健康政策研究中心，建立兒童空汙影響資料庫，提供制度化決策基礎。","◆四、主體論述(三)：預算缺乏，軟硬體建設落後","【政策錯誤／制度荒謬】","●台灣校園室內空品改善缺乏長期專項預算，現有措施多為短期應急，缺乏制度性長期改善規劃。","●僅在「空品惡化」時段調整課表、取消戶外課程，卻無法從源頭改善教室內的空品。","【數據與案例分析】","●韓國將校園空品納入《學校衛生法》，訂定比一般場所更嚴格標準，並提供改善預算。","（韓國近年之修法，特別考量幼童和學生之脆弱性，對校園訂定比一般場所更嚴格之監測標準，幼兒園之室內空品監測，則監測更多空氣污染物。另外，韓國將空氣污染治理納入《學校衛生法》，建立校園中空品監測與改善的法源基礎，將其常規化，對各級校園編列預算，改善軟硬體，保護兒少的呼吸健康權利。）","●聯合國兒童基金會（英國）UNICEF UK的報告也指出國家政策缺乏考量兒少脆弱性之空污政策，因此倡議國家納入考量。","●美國CEHN（兒童環境健康網絡」Children'sEnvironmental Health Network，簡稱CEHN）推動以兒童為中心的空污標準，並引導政府提高監測與換氣標準。","◆「我們不能讓學童的健康，輸在預算表上的一個刪節號。」","【公共政策理論支持】","●成本效益分析指出：空污導致的兒童健康損害，其社會成本遠高於校園改善支出。","【改革主張】","●編列專項「校園空品改善預算」，用於空氣清淨設備、換氣系統升級、綠建築標準推動。","●優先改善空污熱點區域學校，建立示範學校、績效回饋與公民參與監督機制。","◆五、結語：制度若不動，災難就會重演","◆「制度如果不動，災難就會重演。」","校園，是孩子們成長與學習的場所，不該是讓他們遭受健康威脅的溫床。","今天我們談的不只是空污，而是政府責任的斷裂，是對兒童基本權益的漠視，是體制「不作為」的證明。","我在這裡，嚴正要求環境部與教育部：","●立即啟動《室內空氣品質管理法》修法，明訂教育部為共同主管機關；","●訂定各級學校適用於學生的空氣品質標準與應變流程；","●建立跨部會合作平台，制定「兒少空污防治白皮書」，並確保預算到位、責任明確。","也請各位委員、媒體與社會共同關注：我們有責任為孩子打造一個安全、健康、能安心呼吸的學習空間。","◆「改革不是喊口號，而是捲起袖子把事情做好。」"],["主席：現在作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（13時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長有請彭部長姚委員好 部長好部長 全世界大概有超過200個國家共同簽署了巴黎氣候協定那從2016年就生效了目標是在2100年前可以將全球均溫控制在上升幅度大概1.5"},{"start":35.76,"end":63.847,"text":"五度那協議中也也有承諾就是很重要的一個氣候融資因為這是一個全球性的問題所以可能有一些比較比較貧窮的國家必須要有融資的問題才可以協助貧窮國家適應氣候變遷並且讓他轉向使用再生能源那美國"},{"start":66.179,"end":86.414,"text":"這個算是第二次退出巴黎氣候協定我想要請問一下部長因為他第一次是因為協定的規定所以他2017年就宣布2020年才正式退出第一次退出的時候對於我國"},{"start":87.54,"end":109.212,"text":"有沒有產生什麼影響報告委員那個時候其實減碳還正式準備要啟動當中所以我們那時候其實減碳也才剛要開始大概都是平的沒有什麼減碳的成果所以現在全世界要減碳大概都是過去這五年當中減得特別有效果那也就是說第二次"},{"start":110.242,"end":117.282,"text":"現在退出宣佈退出什麼時候生效明年1月生效明年1月就生效明年1月生效"},{"start":120.421,"end":141.517,"text":"看起來是會不會對我們環境部推動淨零碳排的政策會有什麼阻力報告委員因為政府是對一個大的方針他會不會對全球有影響一定會有影響但是其實我們減碳其實也要看供應鏈例如說我會看蘋果或是我們的伺服器的組裝"},{"start":142.338,"end":166.832,"text":"他會不會那些大廠影響到他減他的目標那目前雖然聯邦政府美國聯邦政府有改了可是下面基本上沒有一個地方改而且很多的州他還是維持原有的建立目標所以目前我們一直在觀察當中這個影響會有多大而且全世界還沒有一個國家說我要調整我的目標所以目前我們還是審慎樂觀就是就是我我我我"},{"start":168.453,"end":182.526,"text":"我覺得部長這樣子的回答好像還蠻正確的,就是說全球性的一個方向在走,美國縱使退出也不大會影響,是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":185.189,"end":207.266,"text":"因為美國大概佔了現在大概20幾%左右的排碳量那當然最大的是中國那當然啦中國的減碳會不會受到美國的這個影響整個貿易壁壘的影響這個還有待觀察但是這個我們就是一直在關切例如說綠色產業例如說綠能或是汽油科技的供應鏈會不會斷鏈這個是我們最關心的如果被斷鏈那減碳真的會有影響對我"},{"start":212.58,"end":221.154,"text":"對 就這樣子問好了就是說會不會減少因為供應鏈的問題嘛那美國退出了會不會減少企業投資減碳技術的誘因"},{"start":224.326,"end":247.151,"text":"那環境部這邊怎麼確保台灣的綠色轉型進程會可以...報告委員因為美國的這個他們的銀行的確最近有退出整個國際的淨領的金融的相關的機構沒有再倡議了美國幾個大銀行因為他們要表態這個會影響到全球部分的綠色投資的資金的位移"},{"start":247.711,"end":274.17,"text":"我們一直在關注那我們台灣目前其實整個趨勢因為我們台灣要賣東西不是只有美國還有別的地方所以基本上我們到目前為止我們也主動的訪問很多金融機構等等大家當然大家都在看大家都在等但是我目前的共識是我們現在暫時不用改變但是如果真的全世界做出一些改變我們一定會滾動式的調整也就是我們必須要先做好一切的準備"},{"start":275.211,"end":299.665,"text":"我們在準備當中那我問一下就是因為還是會有一些產業受到衝擊對不對那碳費會不會緩增報告委因為目前碳費真的說得很少啦我舉例像中鋼一年3600億的營業額如果按照我們估計它碳費大概只要繳3億多所以1%這個會不會痛當然1%是痛啦"},{"start":303.347,"end":317.635,"text":"還OK啦這個全世界大概都會收到4、5%以上的幅度啦那所以目前會有一點點壓力但是就又不要給大家馬上變成負債的一個結果這個是我們的期待啦"},{"start":318.826,"end":346.459,"text":"所以我們會不會延長徵收碳費的輔導期目前我們第一個是說碳費的時間不會變這個目前這是我們的態度那第二個是不是在某方面的今年1月要開始算是算明年5月31號繳所以現在不是現在要從企業身上拿錢出來是明年5月31號所以我們還有很充裕的時間做出最好的判斷"},{"start":348.305,"end":373.613,"text":"因為歐盟的碳冰箭的調整機制也有可能會延後一年實施鵝豹圍沒有延後它還是明年1月1號開始實施但是是2027年就後年2月開始去買憑證就有點像是我們今年開始做明年要繳錢一樣所以它並不是延後沒有延後沒有延後"},{"start":379.724,"end":404.958,"text":"我最後問一個問題就是我們室內空氣品質的品質管理法大概從2011年就公布了大概有1600處是環境部公告的室內空品納管場所"},{"start":406.821,"end":416.145,"text":"我這邊有環境部所提的資料是近兩年來違反的裁罰數字零這個是因為大家做得好還是我們檢查裁罰的人力的問題"},{"start":421.127,"end":440.106,"text":"其實最主要以前的裁罰幾件大概都是沒有涉專責人員像最近那個拉拉破南港那個他就是剛成立沒有涉專責人員所以理論上他可能就會被裁罰了所以類似這樣的東西是比較多但是因為我們通常檢測我們也在跟同事講到有沒有辦法"},{"start":441.207,"end":458.284,"text":"檢討一下檢測的方法因為目前檢測是會有請這個外面的顧問公司去檢那通常有時候第一次檢不過可能第二次準備好了就檢過了所以這個我們也在思考說有沒有更好的方法有沒有自動連續的儀器來去做取代現在的神功因為那個要兩三萬塊啦"},{"start":459.765,"end":485.31,"text":"對當然法律立法的目的不在裁罰啦可是呢可是假如說假如說是真的不應該裁罰所以沒有裁罰這個是好的可是假如是因為其他我們的人力或者是其他的種種因素沒有裁罰這個說一個法已經公布了近兩年裁罰數是零這個還滿"},{"start":487.85,"end":510.978,"text":"還蠻值得討論看看問題到底在哪裡的其實目前到現在為止49件啦那至於說其實113年也有3件啦那去年是應該是去年是去年3件啦然後前年是1件啦還是有大概都罰罰大概5萬一個是5萬加起來是5萬塊其實他的罰則沒有很重"},{"start":511.718,"end":533.9,"text":"沒有很重那我們會來再檢討一下反正就是我們就是還是我還是要講就是只有法律並沒有辦法完成很多事情這個就土法不足以自行所以還是必須要努力的去執行法律這個才是立法的主要目的最後我還是講一下剛剛"},{"start":535.521,"end":548.27,"text":"陳佩玉議員大概也有講到就是中國海費的問題希望部裡面這邊假如有足夠的經費或者是我們想辦法協助三個離島縣看怎麼"},{"start":551.952,"end":574.679,"text":"怎麼讓三個領導線的海洋可以更乾淨一點讓海灘可以少一點中國漂過來的垃圾這個我們從源頭管理是不可能啦我們只能不停止的淨灘然後打撈這個真的是一件非常"},{"start":576.059,"end":593.587,"text":"讓你厭煩的事情希望部裡面這邊可以主動跟三個地道縣看有沒有什麼資源可以提供給金門澎湖馬祖的縣政府讓地方來把海洋清一清"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":994,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時51分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下彭部長。"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，全世界大概有超過200個國家共同簽署了巴黎氣候協定，從2016年就生效了，目標是在2100年前可以將全球均溫上升幅度控制在1.5度左右，協議中也有承諾一個很重要的氣候融資，因為這是一個全球性的問題，所以可能有些比較貧窮的國家必須要有融資的問題，才可以協助貧窮國家適應氣候變遷，並且讓他轉向使用再生能源。美國算是第2次退出巴黎氣候協定，我想要請問部長的是，他第一次是因為協定的規定，所以他2017年就宣布，2020年才正式退出，第一次退出的時候，對於我國有沒有產生什麼影響？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個時候減碳才正式準備要啟動，我們那時候減碳也才剛要開始，所以大概都是平的，沒有什麼減碳的成果，現在全世界要減碳，大概也都是過去這5年當中減得特別有效果。"],["楊委員曜：好，也就是說，現在宣布第二次退出，什麼時候會生效？"],["彭部長啓明：明年1月生效。"],["楊委員曜：好，明年1月生效，看起來對我們環境部推動淨零碳排的政策會不會有什麼阻力？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為政府是對一個大的方針，這會不會對全球有影響？一定會有影響，但是我們減碳其實也要看供應鏈，例如說，我會看蘋果或是我們伺服器的組裝，會不會影響到那些大廠減碳的目標。目前雖然美國聯邦政府有改了，可是基本上下面沒有一個地方改，而且很多州還是維持原有的淨零目標，所以目前我們一直在觀察這個影響會有多大，而且全世界還沒有一個國家說我要調整我的目標，所以目前我們還是審慎、樂觀。"],["楊委員曜：我覺得部長這樣子回答好像還滿正確的，就是說，全球性的方向在走，縱使美國退出也不大有會影響，是這樣子嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為美國現在大概占百分之二十幾的排碳量，當然最大的是中國，至於中國的減碳會不會受到美國的影響、整個貿易壁壘的影響？這個還有待觀察，但是我們就是一直在關切，例如說綠色產業，像是綠能或是氣候科技的供應鏈會不會斷鏈，這個是我們最關心的，如果被斷鏈，減碳就真的會有影響。"],["楊委員曜：對，我這樣子問好了，因為供應鏈的問題，美國退出會不會減少企業投資減碳技術的誘因？環境部怎麼確保臺灣的綠色轉型進程可以保持……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，美國的銀行的確最近有退出整個國際淨零金融的相關機構，沒有在倡議了，美國幾個大銀行，因為他們要表態，這個會影響到全球部分綠色投資的資金的位移，我們一直有在關注。而臺灣目前整個趨勢，因為臺灣賣東西不是只有賣美國，還有別的地方，所以基本上到目前為止，我們也主動的訪問很多金融機構等等，當然大家都在看、大家都在等，但是我們目前的共識是，我們現在暫時不用改變，但是如果真的全世界做出一些改變，我們一定會滾動式的調整。"],["楊委員曜：也就是我們必須要先做好一切的準備，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們在準備當中。"],["楊委員曜：我問一下，因為還是會有一些產業受到衝擊，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：碳費會不會緩徵？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為目前碳費真的收得很少，我舉例，像中鋼一年3,600億的營業額，按照我們的估計，它的碳費大概只要繳三億多，大概1%，這個會不會痛？當然1%是痛啦，但應該還OK，全世界大概都會收到4、5%以上的幅度，所以目前會有一點點壓力，但是又不要給大家馬上變成負債的結果，這個是我們的期待。"],["楊委員曜：所以我們會不會延長徵收碳費的輔導期？"],["彭部長啓明：目前第一個，碳費的時間不會變，這是目前我們的態度。第二個，是不是在某方面的……"],["楊委員曜：是不是從2027年？"],["彭部長啓明：是今年1月1日開始算，明年5月31日繳，所以不是現在要從企業身上拿錢出來，而是明年5月31日，所以我們還有很充裕的時間做出最好的判斷。"],["楊委員曜：因為歐盟碳邊境調整機制也有可能會延後一年實施，有沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，沒有延後，還是明年1月1日開始實施，但是2027年，也就是後年2月開始去買憑證，就有點像我們今年開始做，明年要繳錢一樣，很像。"],["楊委員曜：所以它並不是延後？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有延後。"],["楊委員曜：我最後問一個問題，室內空氣品質管理法從2011年就公布了，大概有1,600處是環境部公告的室內空品納管場所，我這邊有環境部所提的資料，近兩年來違反的裁罰數字是「0」，這個是因為大家做得好，還是是檢查、裁罰的人力問題？"],["彭部長啓明：其實最主要以前的裁罰中，有幾件大概都是沒有設專責人員，像最近南港的LaLaport就是剛成立但沒有設專責人員，所以理論上它可能就會被裁罰，所以類似這樣的東西是比較多。但是我們也在跟同事講到有沒有辦法檢討一下檢測的方法，因為目前檢測是會請外面的顧問公司去檢，有時候第一次檢不過，可能第二次準備好了就檢過了，所以這個我們也在思考看有沒有更好的方法，有沒有自動連續的儀器來去取代現在的人工，因為那個要2、3萬塊。"],["楊委員曜：對，當然法律立法的目的不在裁罰。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：可是假如真的不應該裁罰所以沒有裁罰，這個是好的，可是假如是因為我們的人力或者是其他種種因素而沒有裁罰，畢竟這個法已經公布近兩年了，裁罰數是「0」，這個還滿值得討論看看問題到底在哪裡。"],["彭部長啓明：其實到現在為止有49件，其實113年也有3件，前年是1件，還是有罰，大概都罰……一個加起來是5萬塊，其實它的罰則沒有很重，我們會再來檢討一下。"],["楊委員曜：我還是要講，只有法律並沒有辦法完成很多事情，徒法不足以自行，還是必須要努力地去執行法律，這個才是立法的主要目的。","最後，我還是講一下，剛剛陳培瑜委員大概也有講到，就是中國海廢的問題，希望部裡假如有足夠的經費，想辦法協助三個離島縣，看怎麼讓三個離島縣的海洋可以更乾淨一點，讓海灘可以少一點中國漂過來的垃圾。"],["彭部長啓明：OK。"],["楊委員曜：這個要我們從源頭管理不可能，只能不停地淨灘、打撈，真的是一件非常讓人厭煩的事情！希望部裡可以主動看有沒有什麼資源可以提供給金門、澎湖、馬祖的縣政府，讓地方來把海洋清一清。"],["彭部長啓明：OK。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。我們研究看看，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員發言。","接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍"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你知道你們屬於跟你們勞動部給這個勞檢員訂的那個一年的KPI是多少跟委員報告 我們這個KPI基本上是因為我們是補助地方政府去聘用勞動條件檢查員所以就會有所謂的工作量所以大概我們現在一年的工作量勞檢的話是200場次"},{"start":214.212,"end":225.137,"text":"你這樣賣頂到先我拐這個等一下我會進一步跟你講這個連監察院都提出檢討報告要你們改你到現在沒有改一天你上班公務員一天上班幾天扣掉休假日結果你平均一年的KPI你現在要檢查200件這怎麼做得來呢這幾乎天天都在勞檢對不對"},{"start":243.732,"end":268.636,"text":"這太高了啦我來給你看現在地方政府反應是兩個你訂了這個勞檢勞檢員這個KPI這麼高勞檢員就是去檢查人家有沒有問題的啊結果你本身又過勞這不是很碰刺嗎這是第一個點那現在老實講現在因為我們人口在減少嘛很多地方又是用那個遠距的有沒有你很多地方應該可以做一個修正了那另外"},{"start":270.294,"end":292.889,"text":"我是很希望你們趕快去檢討這個KPI要怎麼講我給你看一個齁這不是只有地方的這個政府在反應監察院啊來你看一下我給你看監察院的調查監察院的調查啊他說每一個案子啊每一個案子你要去檢查你要做什麼事情第一個你要先看他的出勤的紀錄比對薪資的這個情緒這個第一"},{"start":295.612,"end":308.101,"text":"第二你還要跟僱主說明相關的這個法規第三你要撰寫檢討的這個檢討報告的這個通知第四你可能要開裁處書至少要長達一個月以上一個案子出去勞檢平均起來差不多二十點鐘這個你比較清楚嘛對不對你訂兩百一個案子出去二十個小時監察已經調查了叫你們改"},{"start":323.907,"end":325.983,"text":"所以你下禮拜上陣以後"},{"start":326.997,"end":352.187,"text":"列地要認趕快把它做一個檢討做一個處理好不好謝謝委員關心這個我們第一線勞動檢查員的辛勞確實那這個部分我們其實持續在做一些不管是在工具面或是說剛剛講的廠市面怎麼去換算因為並不一定說每一位這個200廠市一定是勞檢有時候我們在做一些仿試的話也會把它記為工作量這個我們就陸續在做一些優化跟精進謝謝委員關心"},{"start":354.268,"end":377.283,"text":"監察院調查完之後他是有明確要你做一些改正的啦他明明確確的你看以後你單列的這個時數啊你會增加的工作量太大嘛所以他有時候你看一個月的那個工作時間加班數超過50點鐘超過50個小時甚至各個機關加班費有時候規定只能給20那你就違規啊對不對"},{"start":380.663,"end":400.056,"text":"你這個強人所難啊 你導致你的這個你自己的勞工 自己的員工過勞嘛 然後又違反規定嘛欸 勞動部去年底那個霸凌案啊引起很大的仙人大波 到現在都還沒有完全解決勞動不是很多人工作時間是過場的"},{"start":402.725,"end":425.195,"text":"不是只有勞檢員要整體去檢討特別去年這個事情一定要引以為戒不要霸凌自己的員工好不好不要讓他們工作時間太長後來檢察官不是也進去調你們所有加班的時數嗎打卡的對不對這事情到現在還在查啊勞檢員你在地方你又害得他們不只是工作時間這麼長連加班時數都明定啦你就20個小時結果你給了50個小時這就違規了嘛"},{"start":428.596,"end":452.676,"text":"所以那時候監察院明確要求你們說你要嘛用什麼方式減少他們這個工作量這樣他可以做得更好啊不然你就增加人力嘛對不對另外一個他提那你對於他們的這個對於他們這個加班的這個方式啊你要有一個核實的一個專案加班最重要的就是這個事情嘛到現在都沒做啊來我具體來我現在今天具體的做三個要求好第一個"},{"start":456.84,"end":459.467,"text":"我請你中央啊 要去了解整個地方勞檢的這個狀況"},{"start":462.14,"end":486.383,"text":"你長久都在做這個事情嘛跟著副署長接著署長以後更要做你現在要很完整的深刻的去了解地方整個勞檢這個狀況然後作為你過去編預算的這個參考為什麼要這樣做因為每年預算都在滾動嘛對不對都在滾動嘛然後請勞動部你統計出來今年十月底跟去年一整年的"},{"start":487.404,"end":515.58,"text":"整個那個腦檢的那個狀況跟那個件數好不好好你這個提出來這個一個禮拜給我可以嗎你是不是再給我們一段時間一個禮拜上任那一個月啦好 謝謝一個月給我一個月給我這個資料這個就是OK然後第二個請你趕快提出一個具體的一個改善方案就是說這個KPI真的一年200件真的太多了去檢討一下甚至很多人都建議啊降到150 100多都合理啦"},{"start":516.981,"end":536.743,"text":"檢討一下這個要你在這個一個月內好不好檢討完以後給我一個報告不要再造成那個地方的這些工作人員真的是太辛苦了第三個請你們要提出新的工作分配改善方式包括你這個補助型計畫業務越來越偏低然後你要求地方這個勞檢員做了一堆那個他們現在不是只有勞檢的問題"},{"start":538.103,"end":559.828,"text":"你看他們還碰到一堆什麼不是勞檢類型的分類工作你還在那邊辦什麼說明會整堆的你整個都要納進去好不好整體做一個盤整好不好本席今天非常具體的三個要求那恭喜你下禮拜上任請把他列為第一要任好不好那一個月內給我一個檢討的這個方針跟改變跟改善好不好好謝謝好謝謝張祺可"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時41分）請彭部長，還有勞動部職業安全衛生署林毓堂副署長。"],["主席：請部長、副署長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，很高興剛才聽到你說臺東那個美麗的海岸線不會被破壞，生態環境優先嘛！我剛才聽到一句話，我覺得要肯定，你說如果當地的居民強烈反對的，要傾聽民意、要重視，就不會成嘛！所以我今天一方面肯定臺東這個美麗的海岸沒有被破壞，不只環境部部長已經明確講了，經濟部部長也說他不會允許這個開發，我們今天應該幾乎可以公布了，跟臺東的民眾、跟全臺灣民眾講，臺東海岸線陸上風機成的機率應該是很低的，這是一個好消息。","第二個，我更要進一步問，你剛才講說要傾聽民意，我上次問你基隆四接，我也希望你多傾聽那邊的民意，多去注意那邊，一方面是生態跟它的環境，如果它有污染，那天我們有共識了，儘快去改善，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們3月26號已經派人去查了，我們依據揭弊者保護法組成一個團隊，我希望大概月底或是5月初有一個報告再給委員參考。"],["張委員啓楷：已經去查了？"],["彭部長啓明：已經去查了，已經率隊去台電裡面查了。"],["張委員啓楷：你說什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：現在要等一段時間，因為我們已經要求台電提供相關的資料了，如果它有隱匿的話，目前我知道檢調也已經在查了，所以如果檢調有跟我們要資料，我們會提供給檢調，如果我們有結果也會再跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：好，第一，儘快啦！第二，絕對不允許污染那個地方，更重要的是不要讓污染造成當地民眾的傷害，因為戴奧辛是致癌物質，一定要做到。","第二個，當地居民為什麼那麼反對四接？不是不能討論喔！是他們反映很多意見，例如現在臺灣的郵輪都是從基隆港進來，現在放四接的天然氣儲存槽在那邊會不會影響到他們？其實大家都知道，以前臺灣每次發生戰爭都是從基隆港登陸，所以當地民眾有些聲音，你剛剛提的很好，傾聽民意，這個我們共同努力。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：接著請林副署長。副署長，恭喜！聽說你下禮拜就要升任署長了，先恭喜你啦！"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：不過任重道遠，我先問一個很重要的事情，很多地方政府都在埋怨一件事，這可能也是你上任後應該要馬上解決的，勞檢員從2016年開始就在哀怨說快過勞了，結果到現在為止勞動部還在說他們要做一些改善，要推動支持草案、做一些久任的獎金留才。它的根本問題出在這個地方，副署長，你知道你們署裡跟勞動部幫勞檢員定的一年的KPI是多少嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們這個KPI基本上因為我們是補助地方政府去聘用勞動條件檢查員，所以就會有所謂的工作量，我們現在勞檢一年的工作量大概是200場次。"],["張委員啓楷：不會定得太高嗎？這個等一下我會進一步跟你講，連監察院都提出檢討報告要你們改，你們到現在都沒有改。公務員扣掉休假日一年上班幾天？結果你們平均一年的KPI叫他要檢查200件耶！這怎麼做得來呢？這樣幾乎天天都在勞檢耶！對不對？這太高了啦！","現在地方政府的反映有兩個，你把勞檢員的KPI定這麼高，勞檢員就是去檢查人家有沒有問題的，結果他本身就過勞，這不是很諷刺嗎？這是第一點。老實講，現在因為我們人口在減少，很多地方又是用遠距的，所以很多地方應該可以做一個修正。另外，我是很希望你們趕快去檢討這個KPI要怎麼降低，這不是只有地方的政府在反映，我給你看監察院的調查，監察委員說，每一個案子去檢查時要做什麼事情？第一個，你要先看他的出勤紀錄比對薪資的清冊；第二個，你要跟雇主說明相關的法規；第三個，你要撰寫檢查的檢查結果通知；第四個，你可能還要開裁處書，至少要長達一個月以上，出去勞檢一個案子需要的時間平均起來差不多是20個小時。這個你比我清楚，你的KPI定在200，出去勞檢一個案子要20個小時，監察院已經調查了，叫你們改，所以你下禮拜上任以後列為第一要任，趕快把它做一個檢討、做一個處理，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝委員關心我們第一線勞動檢查員的辛勞，確實，這個部分我們其實持續在做一些，不管是在工具面或是剛剛講的場次面怎麼去換算，因為並不一定這200場次一定是勞檢，有時候做一些訪視也會把它記為工作量，這個我們已經陸陸續續在做一些優化跟精進，謝謝委員關心。"],["張委員啓楷：監察院調查完之後，它是有明確要你做一些改正，你看，它說因為增加的工作量太大，所以有時候一個月的加班時數超過50個小時，甚至各個機關的加班費有時候規定只能給20小時，那你就違規啊！你是強人所難啊！導致你自己的員工過勞，又違反規定。勞動部去年底的那個霸凌案引起軒然大波，到現在都還沒有完全解決，勞動部很多人的工作時間是過長的，不是只有勞檢員，要整體去檢討，特別是去年這個事情一定要引以為戒，不要霸凌自己的員工、不要讓他們工作時間太長，好不好？後來檢察官不是也進去調你們所有加班、打卡的時數嗎？這個事情到現在還在查，在地方你又害得勞檢員不只是工作時間這麼長，連加班時數明定是20個小時，結果他加班50個小時，這都違規了嘛！那時候監察院明確要求你們要用什麼方式減少他們的工作量，讓他可以做得更好，不然你就增加人力，對不對？另外，對於他們的加班你要有一個覈實的專案加班，最主要是做這三樣事情，到現在都沒做。","我今天具體做三個要求，第一個，請中央要去了解整個地方勞檢的狀況，副署長，你長久都在做這個事情，接了署長以後更要做。"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在要很完整的、深刻的去了解地方整個勞檢的狀況，作為後續編預算的參考。為什麼要這樣做？因為每年預算都在滾動，請勞動部統計出來今年至10月底跟去年一整年整個勞檢的狀況跟件數，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：請把這個提出來，一個禮拜給我可以嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：委員，是不是再給我們一段時間？"],["張委員啓楷：那就一個月啦！"],["林副署長毓堂：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：一個月給我這個資料。第二個，請你趕快提出一個具體的改善方案，這個KPI一年200件真的太多了，去檢討一下，甚至很多人都建議，降到一百五、一百多都合理啦！檢討一下，一樣檢討完後一個月內給我一個報告，不要再造成地方工作人員的負擔，真的是太辛苦了。第三個，請你們要提出新的工作分配改善方式，包括這個補助型計畫業務越來越偏低，然後你要求地方勞檢員做一堆，他們現在不是只有勞檢的問題，你看他們還碰到一堆不是勞檢類型的份內工作，你要叫他們去辦說明會什麼一大堆的，你整個都要納進去，整體做一個盤整，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：本席今天提出非常具體的三個要求，恭喜你下禮拜上任，請把它列為第一要任，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：一個月內給我一個檢討的方針跟改善方案，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：是，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的發言。","徐欣瑩委員改書面質詢。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那有請環境部部長 謝謝有請彭部長陳委員好好 部長你好部長在上一次3月17號一樣是跟您質詢我們討論到關於兒少式空氣污染的高風險族群也相對敏感那當時我就有拜託您說需要政府提出更多的保護措施同時我們也希望有跨部會的工作小組那您的承諾呢讓我們辦公室非常順利的"},{"start":32.861,"end":52.351,"text":"在4月9號我們已經邀請了環境部教育部衛福部還有專家學者一併召開內部的討論會議喔那這個討論會議上我們其實討論到非常多比較仔細的事情那也很感謝環境部的同仁在當天有一些很具體的共識讓我們後續在很多政策的推動上可以往下走"},{"start":52.771,"end":62.76,"text":"第一個跟部長分享一下第一個是我們談到關於工業區周邊學校的劃設這件事情因為目前呢在我們所謂空氣品質維護區現在目前現行有91個空維區那9個在工業區10個在學校"},{"start":69.085,"end":89.24,"text":"其他91個扣掉10個再扣掉9個其他都不在空污重災區這個我們日後再討論但是只有10個在學校這件事情呢我們也可以理解可能對於地方縣市政府來說他們的認定跟你們的認定標準不一樣或是他們的認定跟很多專家學者認為孩童是高風險高敏感這件事情的認知不一樣"},{"start":90.04,"end":104.913,"text":"但有沒有機會我們多多增加工業區周遭學校的畫社這件事情可不可以讓環境部積極的跟地方政府來討論到底是在畫社上有什麼困難還是跟社區溝通有什麼困難部長你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":105.714,"end":120.168,"text":"謝謝委員能夠對這個議題主動來找我們第一個是我非常贊同委員的看法但是這個設定其實執行上是地方報決所以我們會可能要增加溝通的頻率然後一些方案讓他們願意來做所以這個部分我們會來積極來推動這個事情"},{"start":122.691,"end":150.917,"text":"好那我們這邊其實也提出一個還蠻具體的建議因為地方上目前都在規劃通學步道這是為了確保孩子們行的安全如果要跟地方政府溝通他們覺得在這個議題上有困難其實我們比較具體的建議可以先結合地方政府的通學步道這件事情去想像也許他們就比較可以理解到底這件事情可以怎麼做那我想具體的方向我們比較希望環境部真的可以主動的行論地方政府問一下他們相關的進度或者是有什麼"},{"start":151.497,"end":168.204,"text":"困難跟問題需要你們積極的討論或者是找協助專家學者來協助這個部分就拜託你們再進一步考量那也謝謝部長剛剛非常正向的回應第二個是關於控務法第85條我們談到違規如果對學校有影響的要從重處罰當時的從重的罰款是說加重0.1到0.5倍可是我們去調了這兩年的裁罰紀錄是零"},{"start":175.347,"end":189.927,"text":"沒有從學校通報這邊來的那當時的困難我們聽到大氣司很明白告訴我們因為這個檢舉的主體必須是學校才會納入有所謂的學校受到影響可是部長你可以想像一個情境假設我們"},{"start":191.128,"end":214.24,"text":"現在立法院這邊是一所學校我們旁邊的工廠失火了然後有這個空瓶的問題老師們第一時間做的應該是疏散孩子或者是尋求相關的幫助或是請家長趕快把孩子們帶回老師們想的第一件事一定不是打去環保局檢舉對不對可能是周邊的居民才有想到要去檢舉那如果學校沒有打這通檢舉電話對於地方的環保局他們的認定就是學校沒有受到影響"},{"start":215.2,"end":225.976,"text":"那我不會說這是公務人員的問題我會說這是現行法規規範的問題導致於學校如果沒有打這一通電話我們就不會認定學校的空品有受到影響"},{"start":227.376,"end":247.51,"text":"這件事情我認為其實我們可以透過條文的改善跟調整讓這件事情其實可以促成那但是我們並不是為了要處罰廠商而去做這件事情是我們希望在積極保護而上呼吸品質這件事情上我們有更積極的作為部長你覺得我這個建議我們可不可以往這邊去努力"},{"start":249.271,"end":261.658,"text":"其實我們現在是針對即興的事件例如說隔壁失火會不會往我們這邊飄我們有一個預警的機制是通知學校當然委員提的建議很好未來是不是我們這個預警的機制"},{"start":263.939,"end":278.355,"text":"如果通過學校的話加重裁罰我們可以來研議這個事情就是控訴法的部分修正是不是重重甚至剛剛委員說的這個處罰的比例飄到學校是不夠太輕的零點幾倍所以我們是不是再加重我們可以考慮"},{"start":279.396,"end":305.951,"text":"加重的部分我其实现在还在讨论还在研究但是我觉得你刚刚讲就是如果它确实已经造成学校影响可是我们真的不必要要学校打一通电话才算数的话我们往这里演绎真的是好的方向谢谢部长那至于这些裁罚的金额也就是所谓的这个基金目前它的裁罚用途目前并没有放在所谓学校空瓶改善学童紧急保护疏散医药的部分有没有机会往这里去讨论跟演绎"},{"start":306.651,"end":329.046,"text":"因為目前那個財劃法裡面這種罰款是到地方政府所以這個就變成地方政府願不願意給學校好 那沒關係我當然知道是地方政府所以我們也許來想一想怎麼跟地方政府溝通站在積極保護兒少學校空品這件事情上我們可以更有作為好 那接下來關於談到所謂有害空氣污染的部分"},{"start":329.426,"end":356.845,"text":"目前它的監測數字雖然都有上網公開可是說實話那個公開的資料它其實是比較適合科學家閱讀就算很多科學家認為那個都已經簡化過了精簡過了但是對於很多住民來說其實不方便閱讀而且資料也不及時它對於一般人來說是沒有可靜性的那我們甚至也認為其實相關的資料如果有兒少版就更好了也就是兒少版跟一般人的閱讀版而不是現在我們認為已經科普化的版本"},{"start":357.225,"end":379.692,"text":"那當時在跨部會的會議在我們辦公室召開那個內部的會議討論上我們很感謝大氣死友說會回去研議這件事情那我想這邊部長是不是也可以給我們一個承諾我們如何把這個資料可以更親民然後甚至有兒少版讓孩子知道說今天我可不可以出去打球今天我可不可以出去運動這個空品是不是適合我出去做戶外活動的"},{"start":381.552,"end":403.318,"text":"我們來研議一下因為其實我也看環境部的網站並沒有針對小朋友的研究但是我們跟小朋友相關的那這個我們會來研究整個針對這個族群再提供一些服務出來那另外一個是我們會研議這個環境地圖把這個污染數據把它視覺化那委員講的能不能容易懂不是學科學的也可以懂這個我們會來努力"},{"start":403.618,"end":422.633,"text":"好 那包含還有兒少的部分喔好 那最後再講一下我們當天還有提到目前這個有害空氣污染的部分只有其中有管道排放標準而不是空氣中的標準其實很難呈現可是我們那天在討論的時候其實就有人提到應該可以呈現每一根管道歷年來有沒有改善的數字比較這個有機會待會去研議嗎"},{"start":425.635,"end":447.836,"text":"好這個我們回去研究一下因為不知道他這個數據存在應該是沒有問題沒問題就回去研議那我們辦公室目前規劃是在6月或7月希望可以召開第二次像這樣子的內部討論會議所以我們今天才這麼積極提出很多問題那有一些有進展有一些進展還需要一些時間我也希望在那之前我們希望有這些相關進度的報告好不好"},{"start":448.556,"end":467.815,"text":"謝謝委員主席再給我一分鐘就好要講到綠領人才的部分綠領工作我知道部長你之前有去參加一個跟104人力銀行合作提出綠領人才就業趨勢報告那我們也成立了近鄰綠領人才培育聯盟這個培育課程我目前給予高度的肯定可是我們來看一下我們跟國際趨勢的對接在聯合國國際勞工"},{"start":471.879,"end":495.958,"text":"組織裡面我們把保護生態系統視為是一個綠領工作很重要的內容跟定義可是在我們台灣的環境部培育課程裡面其實沒有提到這件事情那當然我知道很多環境部過往的同仁可能會認為生態這件事情是農業部的事情可是我剛要說目前在國際的趨勢如果是這樣台灣如果忽略了生態其實是非常可惜的"},{"start":496.298,"end":509.608,"text":"那尤其這幾年很多企業都在談ESG有人也開始談TNFD也就是自然相關財務揭露甚至生物多樣性也已經被永續評比機構納為評分項目我認為台灣在這件事情上不應該沒有這個進度跟相關的討論可不可以有機會在兩個月內給我們相關的規劃報告還是部長您認為我們剛剛所說的生態這個部分不應該納入我們國內的綠領人才規劃內容"},{"start":524.259,"end":550.71,"text":"包委員 生態是我們有納入我們兩萬兩千人裡面是有生態的項目在裡面但是我知道這個領域真的在快速發展當中所以我們有請我們同仁是不是找生態的人因為我們這48小時是Basic的能夠額外Plus上去所以例如說12或是24小時加值的一個課程所以這個部分我們希望未來等到這個第一班開完之後後面到下半年能不能把別的Plus像生態這種把它加進來變成一個額外的課程"},{"start":551.971,"end":560.577,"text":"那我目前規劃兩個月內給我們相關的報告是可行的嗎?沒問題 謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培育委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":925,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時32分）謝謝主席，有請環境部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好！"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你好！部長，在上一次（3月17日）一樣是跟您質詢，我們討論到關於兒少是空氣污染的高風險族群，他們也相對敏感，當時我就有拜託您需要政府提出更多的保護措施，同時我們也希望有跨部會的工作小組。您的承諾讓我們辦公室非常順利的在4月9日邀請了環境部、教育部、衛福部，還有專家學者，一併召開內部的討論會議，這個討論會議上，我們其實討論到非常多比較仔細的事情，也很感謝環境部的同仁在當天有一些很具體的共識，讓我們後續在很多政策的推動上可以往下走。","跟部長分享一下，第一個是我們談到關於工業區周邊學校的劃設這件事情，所謂的空氣品質維護區，現行有91個空維區，9個在工業區，10個在學校，91個扣掉10個，再扣掉9個，其他都不在空污重災區，這個我們日後再討論；只有10個在學校這件事情我們也可以理解，可能對於地方縣市政府來說，他們的認定跟你們的認定標準不一樣，或是他們的認定跟很多專家學者認為孩童是高風險、高敏感這件事情的認知不一樣，但有沒有機會我們多多增加工業區周遭學校的劃設，這件事情可不可以讓環境部積極的跟地方政府來討論，到底是在劃設上有什麼困難，還是跟社區溝通有什麼困難？部長，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員能夠對這個議題主動來找我們。第一個是我非常贊同委員的看法，但是這個設定其實執行上是地方環保局……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯、沒錯、沒錯。"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們可能要增加溝通的頻率，然後一些方案讓他們願意來做，我們會來積極推動這個事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們其實也提出一個還滿具體的建議，因為地方上目前都在規劃通學步道，這是為了確保孩子們行的安全，如果跟地方政府溝通，他們覺得在這個議題上有困難，其實我們比較具體的建議可以先結合地方政府的通學步道這件事情去想像，也許他們就比較可以理解到底這件事情可以怎麼做。具體的方向是我們比較希望環境部真的可以主動行文地方政府，問一下他們相關的進度，或者是有什麼困難、問題需要你們積極的討論或者是找專家、學者來協助。這個部分就拜託你們再進一步考量……"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：也謝謝部長剛剛非常正向的回應。第二個是關於空污法第八十五條，我們談到違規如果對學校有影響的，要從重處罰。當時從重的罰款是加重0.1到0.5倍，可是我們去調了這2年的裁罰紀錄，是0，沒有從學校通報來的。當時的困難我們聽到大氣司很明白告訴我們，因為這個檢舉的主體必須是學校，才會納入所謂的學校有受到影響。部長，可是你可以想像一個情境，假設現在立法院這邊是一所學校，我們旁邊的工廠失火了，有空品的問題，老師們第一時間做的應該是疏散孩子或者是尋求相關的幫助，或是請家長趕快把孩子們帶回，老師們想的第一件事一定不是打去環保局檢舉，對不對？可能是周邊的居民才有想到要去檢舉，如果學校沒有打這通檢舉電話，地方環保局的認定就是學校沒有受到影響。我不會說這是公務人員的問題，會說這是現行法規規範的問題，導致於學校如果沒有打這一通電話，我們就不會認定學校的空品有受到影響，這件事情我認為其實可以透過條文的改善及調整促成，但是我們並不是為了要處罰廠商而去做這件事情，而是希望在積極保護兒少呼吸品質這件事情上有更積極的作為。部長，就我這個建議，你覺得我們可不可以往這邊去努力？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，謝謝委員。其實我們現在是針對急性的事件，例如隔壁失火，會不會往我們這邊飄，我們有一個預警的機制是通知學校，當然委員提的建議很好，未來是不是如果通過學校的話，這個預警的機制順道加重裁罰，我們可以來研議這個事情，就是空污法的部分是不是修正從重，甚至剛剛委員說的，飄到學校的這個處罰比例是不是不夠、太輕了，僅零點幾倍，是不是再加重，這些我們可以考慮。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個加重的部分，我其實現在還在討論、還在研究，但是我覺得你剛剛講的，如果它確實已經造成學校的影響，我們真的不必要要學校打一通電話才算數，所以我們往這裡研議真的是一個好的方向，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：至於這些裁罰的金額，也就是所謂的基金，目前它的用途並沒有放在所謂學校空品改善、學童緊急保護、疏散、醫療的部分，有沒有機會往這裡去討論及研議？"],["彭部長啓明：因為目前財劃法裡面這種罰款是到地方政府，所以這個就變成地方政府願不願意給學校的這個問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，我當然知道是地方政府，所以我們也許來想一想，怎麼跟地方政府溝通，站在積極保護兒少學校空品這件事情上，我們可以更有作為。","接下來關於談到所謂有害空氣污染的部分，目前它的監測數值雖然都有上網公開，可是那個公開的資料其實是比較適合科學家閱讀，就算很多科學家認為那個都已經簡化過了、精簡過了，但是對於很多住民來說，其實不方便閱讀，資料也不即時，它對於一般人來說是沒有可近性的，我們甚至也認為，相關的資料如果有兒少版就更好了，也就是兒少版與一般人的閱讀版，而不是現在我們認為已經科普化的版本。當時在我們辦公室召開的跨部會內部討論會議上，我們很感謝大氣司有說回去會研議這件事情，我想部長是不是也可以給我們一個承諾，我們如何讓這個資料可以更親民，甚至有兒少版，讓孩子知道今天他可不可以出去打球、今天他可不可以出去運動、這個空品是不是適合他出去做戶外活動的。"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我們再研議一下，因為其實我也看到環境部的網站並沒有針對小朋友的研究，但是我們跟小朋友是有相關的，我們會來研究，針對這個族群，再多提供一些服務出來。另外一個是我們會研議環境地圖，把這個污染數據視覺化，像委員講的，能夠容易懂，讓不是學科學的也可以懂，這個我們會來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，還有包含兒少的部分。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後再講一下，我們當天還有提到目前有害空氣污染的部分只有管道排放標準，而不是空氣中的標準，這個其實很難呈現，可是我們那天在討論的時候，就有人提到，應該可以呈現每一根管道歷年來有沒有改善的數字比較，這個有機會帶回去研議嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我們回去研究一下，應該是沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，就回去研議。我們辦公室目前規劃是在6月或7月希望可以召開第二次像這樣子的內部討論會議，所以我們今天才這麼積極提出很多問題，有一些有進展，有一些進展還需要一些時間，在這之前，我們也希望有這些相關進度的報告，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，再給我1分鐘就好。部長，要講到綠領人才的部分，綠領工作，我知道部長之前有跟104人力銀行合作提出綠領人才就業趨勢報告，我們也成立了淨零綠領人才培育聯盟，這個培育課程我目前給予高度的肯定，可是我們來看一下我們跟國際趨勢的對接，聯合國國際勞工組織把保護生態系統視為是一個綠領工作很重要的內容跟定義，可是在臺灣環境部的培育課程裡其實沒有提到這件事情，當然我知道過往很多環境部的同仁可能會認為生態這件事情是農業部的事情，可是我剛剛說，目前國際的趨勢如果是這樣，臺灣如果忽略了生態其實是非常可惜的，尤其這幾年很多企業都在談ESG，有人也開始談TNFD（自然相關財務揭露），甚至生物多樣性也已經被永續評比機構納為評分項目，我認為臺灣在這件事情上不應該沒有進度跟相關的討論，可不可以有機會在兩個月內給我們相關的規劃報告？還是部長您認為我們剛剛所說的生態這個部分不應該納入國內綠領人才的規劃內容？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，生態我們有納入，我們2萬2,000人裡面是有生態的項目在裡面，但是我知道這個領域真的在快速發展當中，因為我們這48小時是basic的，所以我們有請我們同仁是不是找生態的人能夠額外plus上去，例如12小時或是24小時加值的課程，所以這個部分我們希望未來等到第一班開完之後，後面到下半年能不能把別的像生態這種plus的加進來，把它變成一個額外的課程。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我目前規劃兩個月內給我們相關的報告是可行的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的發言。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 有請部長有請彭部長周委員好部長好"},{"start":24.251,"end":51.767,"text":"根據環境影響評估法前面一條的第五條就是開發行為對環境有不良影響質疑就要進行環境影響評估而這個環境影響評估法第五條所列舉的總共有十項當然第十一項是其他中央主管機關所核定的"},{"start":52.793,"end":76.336,"text":"那光這十項來講,基本上所有的進行都會涉及到什麼呢?就會涉及到原住民族基本法第21條政府或私人以原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地從事土地開發、資源利用"},{"start":77.037,"end":84.012,"text":"生態保衛及學術研究因諮商並起的援助民族或部落同意或參與"},{"start":85.305,"end":111.067,"text":"所以這個部分就是就會涉及到這個到底要先進行這個原住民族基本法第21條的規定先經過部落諮商同意還是直接就先進行環境影響評估然後又有第一階段又有第二階段對不對"},{"start":113.317,"end":130.54,"text":"這樣的一個會有這個到底誰先誰後然後對原住民族而言哪個有利或是對業者而言哪一個有利因為要進行環境影響評估不管是第一階段或是第二階段"},{"start":131.926,"end":152.672,"text":"都要花不少的費用吧要吧報告委員原住民的這個法跟環評法是兩個平行的我們這邊是環境的把關所以如果是涉及到原住民的那我們就會請原住民相關的單位一起來審這個案子所以這個是我們還是最終的環評保護環境品質保護的這個部長不太一樣因為你這個請"},{"start":159.898,"end":187.177,"text":"原住民相關的機關 譬如說延民會去參加這個環境影響評估的會議他不能代表那個部落對不對 不能代表那個部落所以這個是不一樣的 那個只是一個相關的機關去參與而已所以這個部分 我個人的建議啦我個人的建議 就是說"},{"start":189.586,"end":215.548,"text":"這個業者你可以通告說業者是不是你要先經過部落的同意如果涉及到部落的部分不要到時候第一階段完成了第二階段也完成了結果後來部落不同意對不對那對業者是非常不利啊所以這個然後這個環境影響評估的期間第一階段第二階段部落就一直很擔心啊"},{"start":217.308,"end":246.409,"text":"所以這個部分是一個兩方面怎麼去共同的去處理如果能夠先進行原住民部落的諮商同意不是沒有這種案例喔對我就講這個蘇花安交通部的蘇花安蘇花公路有一段有三段要改為它名稱叫蘇花安蘇花改都已經完成了那另外蘇花安"},{"start":248.038,"end":255.588,"text":"在最後一次的環評大會之前呢所有的部落的諮商統一都已經完成了"},{"start":257.484,"end":283.649,"text":"所以這個部分其實是可以這樣子去進行的部長你認同嗎我非常認同因為任何的開發單位一定要跟當地的住民例如說原住民做好細部的溝通他們送進環評到我們那邊我們來審核才有機會會比較容易過關因為任何的單位其實都可以來旁聽也可以來發言這是環評的制度所以我們都有考慮到這個系統所以例如說我舉例像台東"},{"start":284.849,"end":298.48,"text":"這陣子說要蓋陸域風機其實我相信當地的原住民就感受到這樣的東西我們也聽到了也看到了所以我們也表態了這個有關提到這個東海岸的風電的部分"},{"start":301.001,"end":319.134,"text":"以這樣的一個密密碼碼,25個,還不包含那個大武達了那個海岸,那個如果包含的話就更多了所以整個東海岸就是這樣,所以這個部分,第一個,相公所反對"},{"start":322.027,"end":339.243,"text":"長濱鄉公所已經表達反對成功鎮公所表達反對當地的人民表達反對台東縣政府也表達反對所以最近都被質詢除了你被質詢之外還有經濟部經濟部長直接就說如果地方政府反對"},{"start":341.138,"end":350.723,"text":"我就不同意是那就還要不要進行所以這個部分的乾脆就所以你們跟內政經濟部跟環境部這邊要讓這個要讓這個業者知道啊啊"},{"start":357.287,"end":386.014,"text":"尤其是經濟部長說他親口在立法院說的台中憲政我反對他就不同意那就還要不要進行不要浪費任何的環境影響那個開發他如果是在地的居民有很嚴重的反對其實要過的機會環評委員都會縱觀所有的那我們最近看到很多陸域封建的案例都是附近的民眾的反對地方的反對沒有辦法過的所以這個是最重要要聽民意是最重要的所以我的意思說這個相關的這些意見"},{"start":387.214,"end":413.032,"text":"也請這個因為法案沒有明訂所以就請這個環境部因為現在目前是這個案是在你們在公告嘛對還沒有送進來完全沒有送進來是開發單位自己在準備當中對對對所以你們要把這些意見給他們因為我們一般相關的這些意見無法我們沒有管道給他們嘛所以你們可以給他們"},{"start":413.992,"end":440.859,"text":"現在我們因為有大量幾千則的意見在我們環境部的公開網站留言所以我們都會給開發單位他們會知道會處理但是沒有的就是在立法院經濟部長親自回應的時候地方政府不同意他就不會准那個也要讓他們知道我相信他們比我們更清楚謝謝謝謝曾天才委員發言那接下來請陳培宇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時24分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。根據環境影響評估法第五條，開發行為對環境有不良影響之虞，就要進行環境影響評估。而這個環境影響評估法第五條所列舉的總共有10項，當然第11項是其他經中央主管機關所核定的，光這10項來講，基本上所有的進行都會涉及到什麼？都會涉及到原住民族基本法第二十一條，政府或私人以原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地從事土地開發、資源利用、生態保育及學術研究，應諮商並取得原住民族或部落同意或參與。所以這個部分就會涉及到底要先進行原住民族基本法第二十一條的規定，先經過部落諮商同意，還是直接就先進行環境影響評估，然後又有第一階段、又有第二階段，對不對？這樣會有到底誰先誰後的問題，然後對原住民族而言哪個有利，或是對業者而言哪個有利，因為要進行環境影響評估，不管是第一階段或是第二階段，都要花不少的費用，要吧？"],["彭部長啓明：要。報告委員，原住民的這個法跟環評法是兩個平行的，我們這邊是環境的把關，所以如果是涉及到原住民的，我們就會請原住民相關的單位一起來審這個案子，我們還是最終的環評保護、環境品質保護的機關。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，不太一樣，因為你請原住民相關的機關，譬如說原民會去參加環境影響評估的會議，它不能代表那個部落，對不對？不能代表那個部落，所以這個是不一樣的，那個只是一個相關的機關去參與而已，所以這個部分我個人的建議是，如果涉及到部落的部分，你可以告知業者是不是要先經過部落的同意，不要到時候第一階段完成了，第二階段也完成了，結果後來部落不同意，對不對？那對業者是非常不利啊！然後環境影響評估的期間，第一階段、第二階段，部落就一直很擔心，所以這個部分是一個兩方面怎麼共同去處理的問題，如果能夠先進行原住民部落的諮商同意，畢竟不是沒有這種案例喔！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我就講交通部的蘇花安，蘇花公路有三段要改，它的名稱叫蘇花安，蘇花改都已經完成了，另外的是蘇花安。在最後一次的環評大會之前，所有部落的諮商同意都已經完成了，所以這個部分其實是可以這樣去進行的，部長你認同嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我非常認同，因為任何的開發單位一定要跟當地的住民，例如原住民做好細部的溝通，他們送環評到我們那邊審核，才有機會比較容易過關，因為任何的單位其實都可以來旁聽，也可以來發言，這是環評的制度，所以我們都有考慮到這個系統。例如臺東這陣子說要蓋陸域風機，其實我相信當地的原住民就感受到這樣的東西，我們也聽到了、也看到了，所以我們也表態了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，有關你提到東海岸風電的部分，確實以這樣密密麻麻的25個，還不包含大武、達仁的海岸，那個如果包含的話就更多，整個東海岸都是這樣。所以這個部分，第一個，鄉公所反對，長濱鄉公所已經表達反對；成功鎮公所表達反對；當地的人民表達反對；臺東縣政府也表達反對，所以最近你們都被質詢，除了你被質詢之外，還有經濟部，經濟部長直接就說，如果地方政府反對，他們就不同意。這樣還要不要進行？經濟部及環境部要讓這個業者知道，尤其是經濟部長親口在立法院說的，臺東縣政府反對他就不同意。這樣還要不要進行？不要浪費相關的資源。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，任何的開發如果在地的居民有很嚴重的反對，其實要過的機會不高，環評委員都會綜觀所有的意見，我們最近看到很多陸域風機的案例，都是附近民眾反對、地方反對沒有辦法過的，所以這個是最重要的，要聽民意是最重要的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，所以我的意思是相關的這些意見也請給他們，因為法也沒有明定啦！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以就請環境部處理，因為目前這個案子是你們在公告嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，還沒有送進來，完全沒有送進來，是開發單位自己在準備當中。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對、對、對，所以你們要把這些意見給他們，因為我們相關的這些意見並沒有管道給他們嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以你們可以給他們。"],["彭部長啓明：好，現在因為有大量、幾千則的意見在環境部的公開網站留言，所以我們都會給那個開發單位，他們會知道、會處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，但是那裡沒有的，就是在立法院經濟部長親自回應，地方政府不同意他就不會准，那個也要讓他們知道。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我相信他們比我們更清楚，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員發言。接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}},{"id":"160355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4a551476f85581258db8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b496c539369133b2ff25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:10:40 - 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跟委員報告在委員秀這張投影片它基本上是依據職業安全服務法"},{"start":286.226,"end":305.242,"text":"那他的部分的話他這個剛剛提到這個這個違規的事項基本上他是來自於一般辦公場所裡面的這個設有空調中央空調裡面的這個二氧化碳的一個剛剛委員提到六個月要測一次那這個違反事項就是我們去勞檢的時候發現"},{"start":307.75,"end":323.657,"text":"這個僱主沒有每六個月測一次是這個部分那至於這個實務上測的結果大概都是維持在700到800之間並不會一般辦公場所如果他沒有使用到其他的化學物質基本上都是在1000以下"},{"start":325.157,"end":347.619,"text":"所以能不能請他們能夠主動的把這些監測到的相關的數值通報到你們的單位或者是相關的單位一起來掌握到他們是不是有除了有一些違規的內涵以外那實際上到底他的這些空氣品質在室內是如何有辦法維持的"},{"start":348.34,"end":374.341,"text":"至少是要合乎到規定那除了二氧化碳以外其實像鉛、丙酮、甲烷那些更對勞工或者是影響更明顯的這個當然他需要長期監測才有辦法知道對於勞工的這個健康的影響那這部分如果能夠有一個主動通報的機制我們建立大數據的話將來處理起來也更能夠發揮它的效果這部分將來是不是有機會請這個"},{"start":376.303,"end":386.379,"text":"勞動部跟環境部共同來研擬看看這樣的平台的設置那如果這個平台的話未來我們是不是能夠也把這個訊息揭露給公眾能夠做具體的參考"},{"start":388.972,"end":414.224,"text":"報告委員因為過去是例如說早一天去做檢測那當然那個就要花一整天的時間那未來現在的像我們現在這個會議是這樣的數據其實如果經過環境部認可之後有可能就像委員這樣的數字能夠出來讓大家及時的知道但是這個我們會再研究一下如果準確性還有他的網路上可以弄得到的話我們很樂觀其成有這樣的方式來推動"},{"start":415.918,"end":440.516,"text":"好那就麻煩兩個單位來演繹看看好那再過來就是要有關這個校園周邊的部分我們也知道校園周邊空屋的管制很需要也很重要因為這牽扯到學童的健康還有他未來的成長那我們也知道全國172間的學校跟違規工廠相距其實不到500公尺這個是真的很希望能夠有效去改善那再參考"},{"start":442.018,"end":461.438,"text":"尤其是這個歐洲國家他們針對於局部地區尤其在學校附近都很好的一些方式在處理法國荷蘭英國等等他們希望能夠提供及時的空瓶的這些建設那如果是像瑞典的話他們還希望能夠有一個培訓的"},{"start":462.7,"end":479.575,"text":"一些作為那還有部分的北歐國家設立綠色學校帶來包括植栽隔離測量線數進行等那這個部分不知道教育部相關單位有沒有一些機制正在做這方面的精進"},{"start":480.656,"end":504.063,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們教育部就是我們會跟環境部來做密切的合作但我們現在就是依據環境部他的空氣室內空氣污染的一個指引的一個做法在我們第一個首先會非常重視那個源頭管理等到源頭管理的話就是源頭管制就是跟環境部就是說能夠請環境部能夠跟地方要求說"},{"start":505.383,"end":531.692,"text":"加強了稽查是不是有空污的一些污染源那把這部分給做好管制那第二個部分就是我們有一個新風換氣系統新風換氣系統這邊國教所也可以來補充一下就是部理會來針對這些學校來做相關的一些是不是評估之後是不是需要來裝設這些新風換氣系統來保障學童的一個呼吸權這樣子"},{"start":535.734,"end":559.147,"text":"那因為那個是室內嘛那這個如果室外的空氣比如說前幾天其實這個空汙影響非常嚴重那學校有沒有辦法及時知道這些空氣品質在這個授課教學過程當中就能夠及時的去幫助學校或者是引導學生做哪一些環境上的適應我們也知道比如說現在台灣夏天非常熱"},{"start":560.508,"end":577.629,"text":"所以呢為了怕這個高溫引起重休課或等等的措施就會有一些警示存在所以這部分學校有沒有機會跟環境部這邊有一個共同的方式來處理這個我們跟環境部有那個有一個受體"},{"start":579.03,"end":596.165,"text":"檢測的一個系統它是每小時會更新只要我們部裡跟地方政府的教育局也都在這個群組裡面如果說突然有一些空氣惡化的一個狀況的話我們也會及時的通報地方教育局地方教育局他會透過校安系統來跟學校"},{"start":597.387,"end":619.529,"text":"對即時來通知他們比如說要採取相關的一些因應防護作為比如說門窗緊閉或是相關的一些比如說怎麼樣學童在回去的時候可能比如說戴口罩來保護他自己的一個身體健康這部分我們都有去提醒學校那相關的SOP我們部裡也有訂相關的一個規定來保障這些學生"},{"start":620.65,"end":640.45,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝大家的用心不過這個我會來精進一下因為這個的確我們台灣還有進步的空間啦那我們會跟教育部一起來再來合作再來提出一個新的對策OK OK 好 謝謝那就幫部長還有教育部這邊那另外最後一個相關的環境部如果能夠有效的引導企業資源"},{"start":641.912,"end":657.869,"text":"來落實這個永續經營的永續發展的部分我們也知道不管是過去的這個CSR ESG到未來的SDG大型企業跟上市會公司其實都希望能夠對社會有更多的這些協助"},{"start":659.19,"end":678.843,"text":"那這一部分這邊幾個例子我想部長也應該清楚就是有關的海委會針對這些需求他們成立了一個海洋保育ESG的媒合平台那在這個平台裡面呢企業端就可以從很多個這個海洋保育媒合項目裡面找到適合的合作機會"},{"start":679.864,"end":695.734,"text":"然後民間團體還有地方政府就可以把這些他們的需求提到相關的企業讓他們去尋求合作和伴那這是才今年在二月初的時候成立的那現在是四月嘛那經過這些努力"},{"start":696.474,"end":717.934,"text":"他們就發現從原來大家很喜歡做淨灘的活動開始改變他們如何處理這些海廢物的這些可能造成的影響那這個平台兩個多月以來其實已經初步每合21個團體28個案正在做執行或者是已經完成了企劃"},{"start":718.835,"end":742.227,"text":"那相信這個對於證交所所屬的公司的治理評鑑來講他們就找到一個很好的接入口能夠讓剛剛講的大型企業或者是相關的這些資源可以投入到這邊來所以他們一定海洋淨好生物保育棲地守護海洋素養等等的跟海洋相關的這些內容都可以處理進來"},{"start":743.388,"end":760.715,"text":"我想這是一個很好的一個模式那可是環境部所張力的更多不管是空氣啦廢水啊或者是等等的廢毒等等那這部分不知道部長你有沒有這方面的一些企劃或者是想法"},{"start":762.065,"end":783.215,"text":"因為環境部過去環保署通常我們是一個管制單位所以其實都跟會有點緊張的關係就是說我們要罰人家處罰人家制定標準那我們最近其實改變幅度蠻大的例如說我們在其實他這個業局是創造一個平台媒合的平台那我們是實際上去做例如說重規司他就淨零綠生活"},{"start":783.715,"end":800.587,"text":"十一住行娛樂那種大聯盟已經把企業都全部扣進去已經有140幾家企業那氣候署也有我們每個私署如果跟產業有溝通的就想要公私協力一起來完成某一些事就是說把公部門的預算槓桿到民間一起來參與所以其實我們也有做但是他們是"},{"start":801.187,"end":815.007,"text":"支援一個平台來媒合撮合我們就直接去做一些事情公司協力來完成政府的禁令所以一點點不一樣我是覺得等到過一段時間成果之後再跟委員報告哪一個效果好如果他們這個好的話我們也願意來學習啦"},{"start":816.087,"end":834.084,"text":"好啊非常期待因為我們上次也去看過紀錄片種土也感受到臺灣真的很需要大家共同來守護我們的有了健康的國土就有健康的國民當然就會有健康的臺灣大家一起努力謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王振旭"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時10分）謝謝主席，還是麻煩彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：彭部長好。謝謝你剛剛花很多時間讓大家知道目前環境部正在執行的一些業務，尤其針對今天的主題，在空污方面，還有室內空氣品質方面做了哪一些努力，等一下我會就實務上的一些問題跟您請教。第二個題目是如何引導企業資源有效落實ESG模式？","首先謝謝部長上個月底一起到長庚醫院考察，具體的成果是第一，麻煩環境部、衛福部及經濟部等，要持續精進醫院的節能減碳政策，協助醫院藉由ESCO等措施，有效落實節能減碳及環境永續的目標。第二，麻煩環境部精進醫院室內空氣品質標準，並研議醫院週邊劃設空品維護區的必要性效益。另外，針對水措辦法的修正，請貴部輔導醫院落實污水處理。那天我們當場看到長庚體系或長庚林口醫學中心在這方面做得非常進步，部長除了當場給予一些建議外，也知道未來如何協助其他醫療機構也能有類似的改善措施，這部分因為當天比較匆忙，今天部長還有一些時間，是否可以針對這個部分，再做相關的補充？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須說，很多公立醫院相對誘因沒有像長庚體系這麼好，所以我也鼓勵長庚醫院的行政部門，是不是可以幫助其他醫院？但也跟委員報告，很多公立醫院其實沒有那麼積極，當然有些部分很積極，有些沒有那麼積極，所以我們現在正在想辦法，看看是不是有一些好的方法，可以讓公立醫院、部立醫院都能積極去做。從長庚醫院來看，民間醫院的量能、動機跟企圖心，是真的比公家部門來得積極的，這個是公部門要檢討的。"],["王委員正旭：好，我想大家共同努力，一起求進步。針對今天討論的主題，也要麻煩勞動部跟教育部的代表。","恭喜林毓堂副署長即將升任署長，另外也要麻煩教育部資科司跟國教署的兩位專門委員，包括廖雙慶跟薛承祐專委，大家一起來討論。","從這一張圖表中，我們發現工作的場域或是教育的場域，不管是週邊的空氣品質或者室內空氣品質，真的還有很多值得我們持續精進的地方，這張圖片上看到的工作場域相關數據，好像違反「勞工作業環境監測實施辦法」第七條第一款規定的非常少，這跟我們的印象落差其實滿大的，因為根據我們的了解，室內CO2的濃度原則上是不希望超過1,000，現在我們室內的數值是68，所以很合乎規定。目前我們去查察的這些違反的場室，以工作場域來看，本來應該是每六個月監測二氧化碳濃度一次以上，可是這個量似乎跟我們所理解的有很大的落差，這對於保障工作場域的勞工健康其實是有一些影響，這部分不知道未來勞動部職安署有沒有更好的方式去架設一個平臺，讓符合規範、符合要求的這些廠家能夠據實呈報他們監測的成果？這部分不知道目前的執行狀況如何？"],["林副署長毓堂：是，跟委員報告，在委員show的這張圖裡面，基本上是依據職業安全衛生法，剛剛提到的違規事項，基本上是來自於一般辦公場所內設有中央空調的二氧化碳濃度，剛剛委員提到每六個月要測一次，而這個違反事項就是我們去勞檢的時候，發現雇主沒有每六個月測一次，這是這個部分。至於實務上測到的結果，大概都是維持在700到800之間，一般辦公場所如果沒有使用到其他化學物質，基本上都是在1,000以下。"],["王委員正旭：能不能請他們主動把這些監測到的數值通報到你們單位或者是相關單位，一起來掌握他們除了是不是有一些違規的內涵外，實際上的室內空氣品質是如何，至少是要合乎規定。除了二氧化碳以外，其實像鉛、丙酮、甲苯等，對勞工健康會有更明顯的影響，當然這需要長期監測才有辦法知道對勞工的健康影響，這部分如果能有一個主動通報的機制，我們建立大數據，將來在處理上也更能發揮效果，這部分將來是不是有機會請勞動部跟環境部共同來研擬這樣一個平臺的設置？如果有了這個平臺，未來我們就能夠把相關訊息揭露給公眾，提供他們具體的參考。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，過去譬如是找一天去檢測，當然就要花一整天的時間，未來像我們現在這個會議室這樣的數據，如果經過環境部認可，有可能就有像委員這樣的數字出來，讓大家即時知道，這個我們會再研究一下，如果準確性還有網路上可以弄得到，我們樂觀其成有這樣的方式來推動。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩兩個單位來研議看看。再來就是有關於校園週邊的空污管制。我們知道校園週邊空污的管制很需要，也很重要，因為這牽扯到學童的健康及未來的成長，但是全國有172間學校與違規工廠相距不到500公尺，這個真的很希望能夠有效改善。參考歐洲國家作法，他們對於局部地區，尤其是學校附近，都有很好的一些方式在處理，法國、荷蘭、英國等等都能提供即時空品的監測，瑞典的話，他們還有一個培訓作為；部分北歐國家更設立「綠色學校帶」，包括植栽隔離、車輛限速、禁行等，不知道教育部或相關單位有沒有一些機制正在做這方面的精進？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：跟委員報告，我們教育部會跟環境部密切合作，現在就是依據環境部的室內空氣污染指引，首先會非常重視源頭管制，就是請環境部要求地方要加強稽查是不是有空污污染源，做好這部分的管制。第二個部分，我們有一個新風換氣系統，新風換氣系統的問題，等一下國教署也可以來補充說明，就是部裡會針對一些學校，評估是否需要裝設新風換氣系統，以保障學童的呼吸權。"],["王委員正旭：好，OK，這個是室內部分，如果是室外的空氣，比如前幾天空污影響非常嚴重，學校有沒有辦法即時知道空氣品質，在授課教學的過程當中，即時幫助學校或者引導學生做哪一些環境上的適應？我們也知道，比如說現在臺灣夏天非常熱，為了怕高溫引起休克等等，所以有些措施就會有一些警示存在，這部分學校有沒有機會跟環境部有一個共同的方式來處理？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：也跟委員報告一下，我們跟環境部有一個受體檢測的系統，它每小時會更新一次，我們部裡跟地方政府的教育局也都在這個群組裡面，如果突然有一些空氣惡化狀況的話，我們也會即時通報地方教育局，地方教育局會透過校安系統來即時通知學校採取相關的一些因應防護作為，比如說門窗緊閉或是相關的一些作為，像是學童在回去的時候，可能要戴口罩來保護他自己的身體健康，這部分我們都有去提醒學校，相關的SOP我們部裡也有訂相關的規定來保障這些學生。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝，謝謝大家的用心。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們會來精進一下，的確我們臺灣還有進步的空間，我們會跟教育部一起合作，再來提出一個新的對策。"],["王委員正旭：OK，好，謝謝，那就麻煩部長，還有教育部這邊。","最後是環境部如何能夠有效引導企業資源，來落實永續發展的部分。我們也知道，不管是過去的CSR、ESG，到未來的SDGs，大型企業跟上市櫃公司其實都希望能夠對社會有更多的協助，這一部分在這邊舉個例子，我想部長也應該清楚，就是有關於海委會，針對這些需求他們成立了一個海洋保育ESG的媒合平臺，在這個平臺裡面，企業端就可以從很多的海洋保育媒合項目裡面找到適合的合作機會，然後民間團體還有地方政府就可以把他們的需求提給相關的企業，讓他們去尋求合作夥伴，這個是今年2月初的時候成立的，現在是4月，經過這些努力，他們就發現原來大家很喜歡做的淨灘活動開始改變他們如何處理這些海廢物可能造成的影響，這個平臺推出兩個多月以來，其實已經初步媒合了21個團體28個案子正在做執行或者是已經完成了企劃。相信這個對於證交所所屬的公司治理評鑑來講，他們就找到一個很好的切入口，能夠讓剛剛講的大型企業或者是相關的資源可以投入到這邊來，所以他們擬定了海洋淨好、生物保育、棲地守護、海洋素養等等跟海洋相關的內容都可以處理進來，我想這是一個很好的模式。可是環境部所掌理的更多，不管是空氣、廢水或者是廢土等等，這個部分不知道部長有沒有這方面的一些企劃或者是想法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，環境部過去是環保署，通常我們是一個管制單位，所以其實會有一點緊張的關係，就是說我們要罰人家、處罰人家、制定標準。我們最近其實改變幅度滿大的，例如說我們在……其實這個ESG是創造一個媒合的平臺，那我們是實際上去做，例如綜規司的淨零綠生活，食衣住行育樂的大聯盟已經把企業都加進來，且已經有一百四十幾家企業；氣候署也有，我們每個司署如果跟產業有溝通的，就要公私協力一起來完成某一些事，就是把公部門的預算槓桿到民間一起來參與，所以其實我們也有做，但是他們是建立一個平臺來媒合、撮合，我們就直接去做一些事情，公私協力來完成政府的淨零，所以一點點不一樣，我是覺得等到過一段時間有成果之後，再跟委員報告哪一個效果好，如果他們這個方式好的話，我們也願意來學習。"],["王委員正旭：好，非常期待，因為我們上次也去看過紀錄片「種土」，也感受到臺灣真的很需要大家共同來守護，有了健康的國土就有健康的國民，當然就會有健康的臺灣，大家一起努力。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員的發言。","那接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國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台鐵是吳國基為重要的大眾運輸系統那本席就近期台鐵連續發生多起事故請教主委"},{"start":62.742,"end":84.464,"text":"那我們來看到最近有發生無起吊車作業有關的意外事故那首先我們來看到113年12月19號在花蓮他花蓮幾乎斷發生洗車線出軌事件那同一天呢在潮州潮州的基地列車他衝撞他撞了子沖檔的事件那在今年的1月3號"},{"start":86.294,"end":95.084,"text":"那E500型的自強號在歧獨吊車場他吊車的時候作業的時候發生出軌然後造成8個轉車器損毀那情況相當的嚴重8個轉車器都壓爛了那今年的2月11號呢"},{"start":102.091,"end":131.283,"text":"也一樣是潮州集體他吊車的機車與PP自強號發生碰撞那我們看到2月18號在七堵吊車作業發生疏失同樣的他的轉換器都被列車壓爛了那主委台鐵在短短兩個月內發生五起重大吊車意外事故那可見他在吊車的安全作業管理上可能存在問題主委針對這些事故 醫院會有做調查嗎這七個案子都調查"},{"start":132.967,"end":133.623,"text":"里面说的一点"},{"start":135.327,"end":162.806,"text":"OK好沒問題委員好 跟委員報告吊車案件在我們的法規規定不是我們調查的範圍但是因為我們有發現到陳獨剛委員提到的他在短期之內發生的頻率過高所以我們在今年1月3號發生的七堵站這個出軌事故我們就使用這個霸王條款立案調查那也徹底利用這個案子針對於台鐵目前吊車的狀況包括他的規定管理等等那進行調查"},{"start":163.326,"end":185.436,"text":"所以這五個事故案件中只有調查一件嗎目前就是以緝毒案這件調查那他目前調查進度公委員報告這個案子我們目前預計在今年的7月發布事實資料報告那會在明年的1月前發布最終調查報告我們用最短的時間把這個報告完成"},{"start":185.953,"end":194.971,"text":"OK好謝謝您的說明那我們可以說我們可以看到那很顯然的台鐵在他的安全管理上面存在問題那這邊院會是不是要介入"},{"start":197.11,"end":223.68,"text":"來調查針對這次台鐵他們在半年內發生這麼多起事故因為院安會只調查一件可是他卻很頻繁的那每次看到都是在在七堵然後同樣的是在潮州我們可以類似的案子我們可以去把他追出來然後一次告訴他說你這個類似案子這麼多就像電動車當時也是一樣就類似的一起調查這樣"},{"start":225.06,"end":248.453,"text":"是可以這樣做是可以這樣做嗎那院會什麼時候會介入調查當然我們也會跟台磊溝通嘛我會一直關注他他就會有壓力是喔確實是這樣子好那另外請教主委一個問題那鐵道局在2月14號的時候他也針對冒進號車還有推行運轉推進運轉還有吊車吊車時未採取必要之防護措施喔還有"},{"start":249.053,"end":269.948,"text":"同一避涉區間同時運轉兩列以上的列車的問題表示他會加強他的執法力度以強化運轉安全所以你認為鐵道局他這樣的這次他的加強執法作為足以改善台鐵他們在調度上面管理長期存在的問題嗎確實是有有一些問題你要不要請鐵道組組長來答一下"},{"start":273.396,"end":299.35,"text":"有關於監理機關對於營運機構他所施予的這一些管理措施那原則上只要能夠改善這個鐵道安全那我們都樂觀其成那我們也尊重監理機關的做法本席認為國家運輸安全應該要主動的積極來協助各級政府他們還有機關他們機構並且幫助他們預防事故的發生那本席在這邊想要向主委反映一個具體的情況我們先來看到影片"},{"start":302.179,"end":314.023,"text":"我們來看一下我們到站列車,那就是他現在位置然後等一下他到站之後,他的站列車會不會變幽靈列車我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車,先來看"},{"start":318.607,"end":333.215,"text":"都不見了一股、二股、三股、九股、一股還有車,還有車不見了,但他不知道車站沒了,然後他要去叫路到那個基地喔沒了,就這樣"},{"start":334.505,"end":361.916,"text":"這是發生在一樣是台鐵潮州站那今年3月20號那畫面中我們可以很清楚的看到列車明明還在月台上可是他列車運行的狀況他的監視器的畫面卻沒有顯示那該號次的列車還有他相關的資訊那這個車子後他後續也有進到潮州基地進行檢測作業那照道理說這個列車運行的監視狀況應該要如實反映他的位置還有編號所以您怎麼看"},{"start":369.391,"end":381.955,"text":"剛剛看了這個影片之後因為我們目前沒有收到這一個案子的通報也沒有相關的資訊那是不是懇請委員可以讓我們回去我們再跟台鐵要相關的資料進行仔細的了解"},{"start":382.695,"end":401.251,"text":"OK請 請院會務必要調查因為這個情況非常的嚴重那主委本席請教您您過去是有擔任民航機關的首長那對於飛行安全事故有高度的專業那還有經驗是飛安領域的專家因此本席想要請教主委那如果雷達上民航機突然出現"},{"start":402.832,"end":425.674,"text":"訊號消失這個問題是不是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重那我們剛才看到影片是不是同樣一樣這個這個我們同樣的情況要去關注他對那什麼時候院會什麼時候會介入調查什麼時候會向台鐵來做了解我們回去馬上做回去馬上做OK那預計他調查的時間要多長有點"},{"start":428.762,"end":445.038,"text":"包委員那我等一下回去立刻跟台鐵索取相關的資料那我們來研判整個就是事故的內容有沒有達到我們立案標準那不管有沒有立案調查我們都會針對這件事情做仔細的了解請再提供本席就是相關的調查資料沒有問題准辦"},{"start":446.079,"end":473.679,"text":"是 那主委我們剛才看到這影片 它就像飛機的擂台一樣 它突然的消失了明明列車還在月台上面 可是在它的監控畫面我們卻看不到相關的資訊所以請優安會務必要正視這個情形我們正視 我們確實沒有錯如果沒有及時掌握的話 這可能會危及乘客的安全對 我們不希望發生事故 有發生就是傷及民眾的人身安全還是就是生命財產安全危害到 然後我們才來做調查"},{"start":474.681,"end":476.568,"text":"OK 請院會要積極謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":739,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時41分）謝謝主席。主席，請林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。主委，我們先來看臺鐵的部分，根據臺鐵的資料，目前營運的軌道路網全長大概是1,065公里，從110年的1億5,493萬人次，逐年成長到113年的2億3,707萬人次，成長的幅度很可觀。我們先看到全線總共有242座車站，鐵路車輛有4,709輛，其中牽引用機車有245輛、客車有2,973輛，貨車有1,491輛，由此可見，臺鐵是我國極為重要的大眾運輸系統。本席就臺鐵近期連續發生多起事故請教主委，我們看到最近有發生5起有關調車作業的意外事故。首先113年12月19號花蓮機務段發生洗車線出軌事件；同一天在潮州基地列車衝撞止衝擋事件；在今年1月3號E500型自強號在七堵調車場調車作業時，發生出軌，造成8個轉轍器損毀之情況相當嚴重，8個轉轍器都壓爛了；今年2月11號也一樣是潮州基地調車機車與PP自強號發生碰撞；2月18號在七堵調車作業發生疏失，同樣的轉換器都被列車壓爛了。","臺鐵在短短兩個月內發生5起重大調車意外事故，可見在調車的安全作業管理上可能存在問題。主委，針對這些事故運安會有調查嗎？"],["吳組長吉村：委員好。跟委員報告，調車案件在法規規定不是我們調查範圍，但是因為我們有發現誠如剛剛委員提到的，它在短期之內發生的頻率過高，所以在今年1月3號發生七堵站出軌事故，我們就使用霸王條款立案調查，也澈底利用這個案子，針對臺鐵目前調車的狀況，包括它的規定、管理等等進行調查。"],["邱委員若華：所以這5個事故案件中只有調查一件嗎？"],["吳組長吉村：目前就是以七堵案這件做調查。"],["邱委員若華：目前調查的進度？"],["吳組長吉村：跟委員報告，這個案子我們目前預計在今年7月發布事實資料報告，會在明年1月前發布最終調查報告，我們用最短時間把這個報告完成。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝您的說明。主委，我們可以看到很顯然臺鐵在安全管理上面存在問題，運安會是不是要介入調查？臺鐵半年內發生這麼多起事故，運安會只調查一件，可是它卻很頻繁的發生，每次看到都是在七堵或是在潮州。"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以把類似的案子追出來，然後一次告訴臺鐵類似案子這麼多，就像電動車當時也是一樣，就類似的一起調查，是可以這樣做。"],["邱委員若華：運安會什麼時候會介入調查？"],["林主任委員信得：類似的東西，當然我們也會跟臺鐵溝通，我會一直關注它，它就會有壓力，確實是這樣子。"],["邱委員若華：好，另外請教主委一個問題，鐵道局在2月14號也針對冒進號誌、退行運轉及調車時未採取必要之防護措施，還有同一閉塞區間同時運轉二列以上列車的問題，表示會加強它的執法力度以強化運轉安全。主委，你認為鐵道局這一次這樣的加強執法作為，足以改善臺鐵在調度管理上長期存在的問題嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我請鐵道組組長來回答。"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，關於監理機關對於營運機構所施予的管理措施，原則上只要能夠改善鐵道安全，我們都樂觀其成，我們也尊重監理機關的作法。"],["邱委員若華：是，本席認為國家運輸安全調查委員會應該要主動積極協助各級政府、機關及機構，並且幫助它們預防事故的發生。本席想要在這邊向主委反映一個具體的情況，我們先來看影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：這一樣發生在臺鐵潮州站，是在今年3月20號，畫面中我們可以很清楚的看到列車明明還在月臺上，可是列車運行的狀況，監視器畫面卻沒有顯示該號次列車及相關資訊，這個車子後續也有進到潮州基地進行檢測作業，照道理說，這個列車運行的監視狀況應該要如實反映它的位置還有編號。主委，您怎麼看？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，剛剛看了這個影片，因為我們目前沒有收到這一個案子的通報，也沒有相關的資訊，是不是懇請委員可以讓我們回去，再跟臺鐵要相關的資料進行仔細的了解？"],["邱委員若華：OK，請運安會務必要調查，因為這個情況非常的嚴重。主委，本席請教您，您過去有擔任民航機關的首長，對於飛航安全事故有高度的專業與經驗，是飛安領域的專家。因此，本席要請教主委，如果雷達上突然出現民航機訊號消失，這個問題是不是非常嚴重？"],["林主任委員信得：非常嚴重。"],["邱委員若華：我們剛剛看到的影片是不是同樣的情況？"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們會去關注它。"],["邱委員若華：運安會什麼時候會介入調查？什麼時候會向臺鐵來做了解？"],["林主任委員信得：我們回去馬上做。"],["邱委員若華：OK，預計調查的時間要多長？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，我等一下回去立刻跟臺鐵索取相關的資料，我們來研判整個事故的內容有沒有達到立案標準。不管有沒有立案調查，我們都會針對這件事情做仔細的了解。"],["邱委員若華：請再提供本席相關的調查資料。"],["吳組長吉村：沒有問題，遵辦。"],["邱委員若華：主委，我們剛剛看到這影片，就像飛機的雷達一樣突然地消失，明明列車還在月臺上，可是在它的監控畫面，我們卻看不到相關的資訊，請運安會務必要正視這個情形。"],["林主任委員信得：確實沒有錯。"],["邱委員若華：如果沒有及時掌握的話，這可能會危及乘客的安全。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["邱委員若華：我們不希望發生事故，不要傷及民眾的人身安全，還是危害到生命財產安全，然後我們才來調查，請運安會要積極，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員關注。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。","請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a44662a317fc07a8eb320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b49cbc4003ec59502775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:39:22 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請吳副主委副主委好那今天司法內政聯席審查國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案那我們的海委會管弊林主委沒有出席"},{"start":29.059,"end":58.081,"text":"那我個人是覺得這個主委有時間去參加民進黨人民式投家的宣講會來為所謂的大罷免助政那卻不出席海委會所屬的行政法人設置條例的審議可以報告委員嗎也算是一個比較特殊的時間管理主委在內政委員會業務報告那我現在請教您 請教副主委海巡署去年跟今年對預算各多少海巡署 那個 謝副可以請我們副署長來說"},{"start":61.648,"end":87.817,"text":"委員好我們大概都是兩百多億兩百多少我印象中是兩百三十幾億你是海委會你還要靠印象我是海巡署我是說海巡署你還要靠印象精確數字在跟委員報告你是海巡署你的預算編列還要靠印象還精確數字會後再報告嗎有這種事情嗎不會吧"},{"start":96.827,"end":104.63,"text":"好啦 你也示範一個我們的海巡署 去年編列253.56億嘛 沒錯吧是今年編列288.35億嘛 對不對增加30億增加34.78億嘛 對不對我都沒錯嘛 對不對自己的預算我覺得還是要多了解一點啦是我覺得"},{"start":118.92,"end":140.799,"text":"這個真的也不是 這對一個部門 我在部門待過這對部門本身來講common sense對部門來說是common sense那如果這個都不知道 我覺得是有點遺憾謝謝委員指教那主委在3月29號參加高雄廠的人民士投價政策宣講會他說海巡署的預算被刪了8.27億元 對不對被凍結8.85億元嘛"},{"start":147.663,"end":176.259,"text":"沒錯嘛那因為預算被刪減所以他認為說8艘海巡艦艇無法養護睡休不能出門那海巡官兵拋神槍救生衣戰術背心防彈頭盔都受到影響那管主也說在海上遇到對方有武器時海巡弟兄保護自己防彈背心防彈頭盔怎麼能刪很不甘預算被刪是刪掉海巡弟兄姊妹的平安"},{"start":177.964,"end":188.128,"text":"我剛剛看到也跟您在就教討論 實際上我們去年跟今年的預算編列從253億到288億 增加了34.78億預算比去年增加 結果防彈背心 防彈頭盔都沒有了"},{"start":201.594,"end":219.22,"text":"我不知道那是以前就沒有防彈背心防彈頭盔還是現在我們還循屬要把防彈背心跟防彈頭盔拿掉呢以前預算更少的時候這些都在那結果現在預算更多了反而不在"},{"start":221.595,"end":243.883,"text":"包委員 因為在編預算的時候 我們有不同科目別有的有增加 有的有減少我就問你防彈背心 防彈頭盔嘛 主委講的啊是 這部分我們除了8億好啦 去年有沒有嘛去年都有 也有今年沒有了嗎那個數目不夠 所以我們會減相減相啊我告訴你啦 多了34億"},{"start":246.058,"end":256.725,"text":"超過百分之十以上了啦 預算增加啦那還跟我講說連防彈背心 防彈頭盔 它是被刪掉喔還不是營養不夠喔講白了 就是無病呻吟"},{"start":264.522,"end":281.174,"text":"也就是配合所謂的大罷免做的一系列的造謠那我想請問 沒關係啦我覺得海巡弟兄的安全我們還是最在乎的嘛 對不對那既然我們主委一直大聲哭窮那我想請問海委會跟海巡署的預算解答案什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":285.43,"end":309.724,"text":"我們目前正在整理那個解通報告因為有146案那其中有126案要專案報告所以必須要仔細的去檢視這些委員所要求的內容所以目前還在處理報告當中現在幾月啊現在4月我看起來不急嘛海巡弟兄的防彈頭盔防彈背心海巡弟兄的所有東西你們竟然都說凍結案"},{"start":312.185,"end":330.837,"text":"預算增加的人還說凍結衝擊到結果現在跟我講說都還在準備沒藥沒金啦那我想問嘛都還在準備下禮拜可以嗎可以把解斷要拿出來嗎作為主管"},{"start":342.343,"end":365.582,"text":"連這個都不知道就沒準備嘛還要幕僚跟你講這麼重大的事如果是我以前當政府官員解凍案什麼時候送出來我會不知道還要靠幕僚就跟剛剛預算多少還要去查資料要匯後報告因為行政院現在進行調整的三點數的報告好啦我跟你講行政院跟你們下的指令就是不要放解凍案啦我知道啦就這麼簡單啦所以你們就在拖嘛那我要問你齁"},{"start":370.069,"end":398.018,"text":"下個月可以送出來嗎?給我一個期間好不好?20秒過去了,給不出期間反無奈的海巡弟兄的安全,照你們的說法如果是被凍結有影響那麼大的話你們無藥無菌"},{"start":400.012,"end":418.242,"text":"連下個月你都沒辦法告訴我說 把那個解斷案提出來那兩個月後可以嗎還是到年底好了 年底提好不好要不然年底提 還是大罷免結束後再提是不是大罷免結束後就會提了這個沒關係啦沒關係啊 大有關係拖到現在都沒有拿出來我們都關心海巡弟兄啊"},{"start":428.649,"end":433.666,"text":"可是在解冬安這件事情上 抱歉我沒有看到海委會跟海巡署的關係 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應安會的林主委主委最近這四個月十三號啊特訓飛去新加坡這個仗義機場這次飛去出事 已經過了一萬年了我覺得有兩個非常重要 不只要立案趕快調查因為你今天要非常明確的宣示 因為人命關天"},{"start":33.491,"end":57.461,"text":"這個事件啊 當初13號一尊 飛機上有181個乘客耶181條人命 還包括所有這個機組員這事情要非常非常的謹慎非常謹慎 而且你們剛剛都提到了 以前都有類似的這個案子嘛這次一定要記取教訓 我先跟你講一個最重要的他違反非常多的規定 第一"},{"start":60.011,"end":74.678,"text":"航空器飛行作業管理規則第76條如果有發生單邊的發動機失效最久的航行時間是多久60分鐘對不對他是不是嚴重違反他明明有一個可以在一小時內可以降落的地方而且是他本來設定的目的地結果一步就來"},{"start":90.359,"end":116.509,"text":"嚴重違法 違反規定 跟北斗回來修槓這是第一個非常嚴重的缺失跟違法對不對是不是很嚴重 注意嚴重違法 很嚴重對不對 這是第一項第二個也很嚴重啊飛機起飛 一定有備用機場嘛 對不對有沒有那一天的備用機場 你知道 目的地來 目的地是新加坡的"},{"start":117.932,"end":140.348,"text":"章魚機場 他的備用機場那天有幾個他有好幾個備用的這個機場啊台北 我去搜尋了 第一個台北第二個香港第三個馬尼拉第四個岩港第五個福寺牆第六個新加坡第七個吉隆坡沒有小港機場啊這個很嚴重啊"},{"start":145.919,"end":172.119,"text":"你最基本的飛行的這個導引你之前就做了一個備用機場了切 你全部都不用你怎麼會跑到小港機場呢這第二 是不是很嚴重對嘛 對不對第三個 剛才在說國際上怎麼規範呢雙引擎的飛機如果發生單引擎失效第一件事情 其實"},{"start":173.396,"end":178.859,"text":"最近的嘛所以最合適的嘛這種卡到手也要安全嘛 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要讓人民可以安心而且做一個有能力解決問題的政府應安會如果是說請我去買就說你速度太慢嘛利用這個機會"},{"start":357.142,"end":366.082,"text":"跟時間賽跑做出成績來好不好保障某一位去搭飛機的人這個安全好不好是這位老店跟時間賽跑喔 交換好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 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運安會林主委問一個那個飛行安全的問題因為前兩天華航被人家發現說他有一架飛機是要飛新加坡結果到了越南的外海呢忽然間又返回台灣然後後來是在那個小港機場降落我不知道主委知道這事嗎我知道"},{"start":29.893,"end":39.072,"text":"現在這個問題被大家拿來質疑點就是說有一個機師過去的機師講說華航是不是有可能他是因為單引擎故障"},{"start":40.509,"end":61.424,"text":"那後來看到華航的聲明 華航的聲明是說因為機師是質疑說華航為什麼不是直接飛往新加坡他那時候從越南到新加坡只要一個小時但是華航卻返回台灣 他也多飛了總共飛三小時 等於是多飛兩小時跟飛到新加坡相比"},{"start":62.305,"end":83.377,"text":"然後來華航的聲明並沒有否認說他可能是單引擎故障只是講他們是按照標準的作業程序而且經過專業判斷所以回到台灣來做維修我想先跟主委請教一下因為這也跟運輸安全有關啦過去有沒有類似的案例"},{"start":84.482,"end":100.983,"text":"就是說那個飛機飛到一半的時候忽然間可能單引擎故障或者是其他故障這個case有很多啦比如說飛機上有突發狀況啦有人生病啦我是說單引擎故障啦單引擎故障單引擎故障有啦有沒有類似案例但是"},{"start":101.624,"end":117.392,"text":"但是要轉向哪裡是由機師做最後決定有類似案例我們現在的法規有沒有規定說單引擎故障應該要飛往哪個機場法規有沒有規定沒有民航法沒有規定嗎沒有民航法有沒有規定說"},{"start":118.773,"end":140.484,"text":"當發生單引擎故障的時候 應該要飛往途中的備用機場對 它有備用計畫對 或者是 有沒有規定那你剛用說沒有它會 不是它飛行計畫裡面 它會填說我在某一個航點某一個位置上 我的備用 備用機場在哪裡它有填報民航法有沒有規定民航法有沒有規定 有規定嗎 主委你都不清楚"},{"start":141.704,"end":162.734,"text":"所以民航法有規定說如果發生單引擎故障要飛往目的地盡快飛往目的地或者是途中的備用機場有嗎他飛行機會都要救到天堂還有規定嗎有 那請問一下這個華航的目的地是不是新加坡對那他在越南的時候去新加坡只要一小時但是回台灣要三小時那這樣有沒有違反民航法規定"},{"start":166.076,"end":186.403,"text":"報告委員跟委員報告一下就是一般來講像剛剛林主委講的在飛航途中一定會有一些不正常的情勢發生我是講引擎故障這比較危險的狀況引擎故障這樣子比較高風險的目前在國際航空公司裡面他們都會有一個標準的程序按照民航法然後其中是什麼嘛"},{"start":187.564,"end":203.585,"text":"是所謂的In-Flight Shutdown 叫空中引擎觀測那在這裡面就航空公司在現在的現行規定裡面航空公司他的聯合管制中心要中整所有的包含四項基本上四項大原則第一項就是安全"},{"start":204.306,"end":220.012,"text":"我知道我現在問說要飛到哪個機場不要答非所問好不好主委已經答非所問換了一個人來又答非所問所以按照規定他是要飛往新加坡還是要在附近越南的備用機場降落還是要回台灣是按照規定是哪一個謝謝"},{"start":221.592,"end":238.146,"text":"報委員這個要看當時情況因為今天沒有答案沒關係我繼續問那這台飛機是空中巴士嗎350那空中巴士有沒有原廠的規定空中巴士的規定單引擎故障要盡快飛往最近機場是的"},{"start":239.113,"end":264.001,"text":"所以如果按照民航法或者是空中巴士感覺上飛回台灣做維修都是蠻奇怪的一件事是不是現在民航局跟我們也在去對所以你們認為這個有可能因為最後是沒有事情那當然是最好是這樣可是如果萬一發生事情是不是一件算危險的事"},{"start":264.921,"end":276.809,"text":"所以過去我不知道說因為聽起來好像你們剛剛一開始主委說過去也有發生類似的事情可是回答好像不清不楚所以好像不是把飛航安全當一回事"},{"start":279.223,"end":305.604,"text":"報告委員這個在國際上除了國際航空其他的航空公司也有發生同樣的情況那他們考量除了安全以外還有旅客的舒適度譬如說如果好你講到旅客舒適度我問你啦他今天已經飛到從台灣已經飛到越南了再一個小時就到新加坡了所以一個小時他就到目的地結果你又飛回來三小時然後那你覺得對旅客而言他會希望直接飛到新加坡還是飛回台灣如果你是旅客的話"},{"start":307.217,"end":325.422,"text":"當然到新加坡當然嘛所以這事情聽起來都是個問題嘛這個如果有機會的話查一下跟大家講第二個我問一下運安衛因為之前有很多委員包括立法院法治局一直講說你們調查的時間太久主要是因為人力不足啦那現在你們有沒有擴充人力"},{"start":326.952,"end":339.879,"text":"調查案越快出來其實對於比如說事故的當事人家屬或者是後續的一些法律的問題調查報告越快出來對大家來說越能夠心安嗎那我不知道在增加人力的部分你們有什麼計畫嗎"},{"start":342.372,"end":358.323,"text":"我們有要準備擴充人力沒有錯但是現階段我們自己內部先做在一些點地調控總量管理但是如果說我們未來有一些新興的案子出來的時候我們確實會跟人事行政總署來爭取一波"},{"start":359.404,"end":387.255,"text":"所以好像你感覺沒有一個很具體的答案沒關係 因為我時間關係我最後一個問題因為剛剛我也有聽別委員也有問您嘛因為你們現在是有在辦理那個先進駕駛輔助系統或電動車 車輛調查所以本來你們重大事務調查的範圍是說有一二三點嘛第一點是三人以上你們會調查但是因為有加一個第三點情況特殊或新興運具應該就指的是比如電動車或是有自駕的這種嘛那有一個案例是去年六月份的時候"},{"start":388.075,"end":408.821,"text":"那個時候有一個這個虎尾自撞那他應該是開自動車他應該是開電動車啦那你們說這個報告很快就出來了從去年6月事故到今年2月大概半年多一點時間就公布了那這個現在你們調查報告是有發現先進駕駛輔助系統有什麼問題嗎我請公路主委來講"},{"start":417.23,"end":439.303,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子其實是在調查中那我們調查中去發現說這個駕駛其實是並沒有去啟動這個ADAS的一個系統是一個駕駛他自己分心操作所造成的所以你們去調查你一開始因為他是電動車所以你就會先去調查"},{"start":440.003,"end":463.478,"text":"但是後續發現跟電動車無關你還是會繼續調查然後調查了6到8個月跟大家說跟電動車無關這樣你們調查的報告是這樣子嗎跟委員報告其實他還有非常多的因素你如果能力不足的話應該把能力放在比較充分的地方啦好不好 好 謝謝好 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聘用更多類似的相關專業人才因為這個公路的定義它不是在過去這樣子因為過去可能就是真的是大型的可能遊覽車事故啦或是大型的這種交通事故才是歸你們調查那未來會不會有這個問題"},{"start":452.936,"end":468.594,"text":"不會 其實剛剛委員講的其實不是只有公路我們其他調查組我們從外面新併新來的考題裡面我們都會跟他講說你對AI的這個都會注入這個議題裡面所以我們也跟著時代科技在進步在與時並進"},{"start":470.916,"end":493.545,"text":"那剛剛講到我們公路組就是因為有些信息抑鬱的事故的發生的案子的增加嘛所以我們人一直在增加所以現在我們四個調查模組裡面就是公路組人最多啊公路組人最多嗎對因為他案子會越來越多對啊我就想擔心這個事情那最後因為時間不夠我最後再跟主委提醒一下我們看到一些數據喔"},{"start":495.038,"end":517.574,"text":"這之前的絕賺報告裡面有人提醒到說這個運營會的剩餘的經費裡面來講最主要都來自於人事費的結餘那我要給主委一個提醒是說像民航局他們在出勤在各項的報案說測試等等的民航局是有一個標準每小時支付多少的金額給這些所謂的這個工作人員"},{"start":519.235,"end":548.191,"text":"我剛提到運安會這部分因為現在既然有所謂新的科技進來那你公務組也要提升相關的人才那你們每年的這個人事費的剩餘也這麼多相對比較多啦這是決算報告裡面提出的這個提醒那我們期待說如果後續在這公務上面你們是不是也能夠訂一個很明確的終點費的支給表讓真正專業人才能夠替運安會在調查過程裡面來服務主委有沒有可能做到這件事情這個我們的研究看看"},{"start":549.113,"end":556.375,"text":"你研究完什麼時候研究要研究多久我也就看看因為究竟不太一樣因為他們就有一點類似灰心蝦子的味道"},{"start":557.714,"end":585.656,"text":"對啊 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謝會主席 那有請主委好 運安會林主委"},{"start":10.828,"end":39.267,"text":"主委好剛才在會議之前我們有遇到感謝你誇獎我都對運安會不錯但是主委對於包括會內的業務那我也希望說對於不錯是真的讓我們的運安會不管是人力資源物力來講都能夠充足才能夠對於我們社會各界符合這個期待來展現這個主委的魄力"},{"start":39.767,"end":55.376,"text":"那同樣的延續之前我們碰面的時候那時候跟您就教了那這個人力補充的部分啊那從在去年的時候就跟主委有提到那時候跟人事行政總署反映的一個情況想問一下主委目前進度為何"},{"start":56.397,"end":73.946,"text":"目前人力因為我們高峰期過了那我們內部當時也在做這個每個調查官的主要專長次要專長那我們也在做這個我們成立一個叫做檢視資源小組就是說在不是那麼專業的Domain Knowledge的情況之下"},{"start":75.006,"end":97.183,"text":"因為我們調查的過程有五個階段嘛一個是通報現場直接可以回答我預計在今年或明年有沒有機會能夠來增加人力或是擴大變質我們希望這樣子啦那目前人事行政總署的回覆是如何但是我們知道困難度很高如果委員會幫我們push一下我們非常感謝我們當然樂意push啊那目前的話就是回覆來講的話是說沒有辦法嗎"},{"start":99.724,"end":121.006,"text":"如果說沒有辦法的話那我們就接著來去質詢人事行政總署看他如何來協助那麼重要的一個單位那這個攸關在整個國內的這個包含運輸安全的改善那我是覺得說必須要讓大家有充足的能力甚至還有充足的一個資源因為這個部分必須要用人才來能夠去決定還有這個所謂調查的結果"},{"start":121.857,"end":148.516,"text":"那沒關係那個我還是現在來講目前還沒有人力上面能夠更好的消息那我也希望說要如何能夠協助預案會提高人力的這個部分那我們是希望說能夠有所進展那這樣子我相信也是同仁們的期待那接著要請教一下主委這個預案會我剛才聽國城召委在質詢的時候也提到解凍案可以趕快送那目前來講就準備要送了嗎"},{"start":149.318,"end":167.377,"text":"準備要送了 在鎖上了 都已經寫的差不多了寫的差不多 對好 那我相信如果說那麼重要的一個解答案我們看到其實在任何的一個預算不管是凍結或者是刪除案我們一定是基於預算的使用我們要為人民勘緊荷包"},{"start":168.038,"end":185.244,"text":"那所以說這個部分不應該成為這個所謂他們在操作大罷免來添柴火的這種題目那尤其是運安會大家的loading那麼重所以是希望說盡快將這個解凍案能夠送交就是委員會那讓這個過程趕快盡快來加速如果說可以的話"},{"start":186.024,"end":208.347,"text":"我看其實許多的部會其實都已經送了我看如果可以的話運安會早晚也在這邊提出了呼喊跟期待嘛那我是覺得為了同仁啊那不管是行政院這邊給怎麼樣的壓力啊那我是覺得基於同仁跟部會機關來講大家的業務來講可以盡快送出的話那在這個月的話是可以完成送出了嗎"},{"start":215.735,"end":233.442,"text":"同樣的就是說在上次的話本席在諮詢的時候交通部長他那時候有提到因為當然大家每個同仁在處理這個報告是非常的多還調查世界也都是重大影響交通運輸安全等等的一些事項才會進行調查又是可能是相關的造成傷亡"},{"start":234.082,"end":253.35,"text":"那時候其實在交通部長陳時凱有提到當然說最好的一個時間是希望3到6個月那可是現在目前來講也首先與這個人力的關係那所以幾乎要到1到3年那所以本期想要這個就交部長在這個行政程序法他有一個51條有一個即時性原則"},{"start":254.17,"end":272.347,"text":"那如何能夠在運安會的報告在主要的一個交通議題的調查中它能夠有階段性的一個資訊揭露機制就是在重大的一些議題上面來講可能初步來講調查的因為同樣的這些許多的事件都是社會大眾所關注矚目的"},{"start":272.907,"end":288.801,"text":"那在這個階段性的一個機制 揭露的機制那尤其是大概在三個月內中大事件能夠先有一個初步的一個內容那我想請問一下主委在這個機制上目前的安排進度為何目前這個機制實際上應該還算OK因為每個調查"},{"start":290.502,"end":316.346,"text":"事故的案件進行的過程中都會有一個叫做所謂調查期間的安全通告那麼在事實資料報告公布的時候被調查機關的單位他們都有事先因為他參與一次調查嘛從一開始來參與組織婚婚會議啊參與這個研討找證據的時候他們都在裡面所以他們就是我們一邊調查他一邊也在改善他也都知道"},{"start":316.866,"end":343.937,"text":"但是最主要是因為運安會它有公信力在那所以說像這樣子未來來講在重大的這種在調查的事件來講那是不是可以在三個月左右在階段性的揭露那運安會可以有這樣子的機制來回應我們有一個新聞發布的一個處理重要點如果在某一個階段裡面這個案子是屬於社會重大關注的案子那我們會適時可以揭露出去"},{"start":344.724,"end":361.096,"text":"那所以說時間上的話大概是什麼時候 不一定 它是每個case都不太一樣那我本席在這裡是希望願會如果社會關注的重大事件其實這個大家都能夠可受公平的那在三個月左右的話能夠有一個初步揭露讓同仁能夠把重點先做一個社會的回應這樣子可以達到嗎"},{"start":361.696,"end":386.934,"text":"這個是可以做得到的OK好那在接下來剛才許多委員都針對ADS的這種先進駕駛輔助系統還在進行諮詢那本市長要接著問在這個包括後面的一個調查報告啊在改善的一些過程中那前端在調查資料的時候這些民間的車廠或是他們提供資訊或是配合調查的一個情況有沒有遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":389.133,"end":414.058,"text":"目前還沒有耶所以這些車廠或是民間業者原則上都會配合運安會對那在機關的平行聯繫上面來講有時候需要進入約談一些可能要訪談的對象或者是甚至有一些相關的一些技術面的部分甚至有涉及到司法檢調的部分他們也都全力配合運安會嗎目前都OK的都全力配合好那沒關係那我覺得要就教就是"},{"start":414.938,"end":440.549,"text":"那各模組尚未完成改善建議的這個部分就這個列表的部分那其實運安會有時候都要承擔一些比較吃虧的就是做出了許多改善建議建議事項那他可能受建議單位不僅是交通部可能包含各部會可能包含縣市政府那他們在配合運安會受建議的改善建議內容他的執行情況如何"},{"start":443.453,"end":464.084,"text":"這1、2年確實是那個完成率提高很大大概多少大概有10%到15%左右10%到15%可以配合運安會嘛那在於各部會來講的話哪一個部會的配合率最高哪一個部會的配合率難度相較來講也高都還不錯啊都還不錯 交通部最高嗎"},{"start":465.496,"end":484.515,"text":"交通部就底下,你是走部本部還是底下高空局?當然是涵蓋啊涵蓋都OK啊好啦沒關係,在這裡不要讓你得罪其他部會那本席還是在這裡要提出啦就是還是要建議運安會能夠跟行政院這邊溝通許多的一個改善建議的單位啊"},{"start":484.995,"end":503.155,"text":"他們現在來講在運安會所提出的建議啊那如果他們沒有辦法去配合完成或是他時間有時候配合到修法他需要匡日費時或是有時候需要配合到計畫的經費來去做類似像機場的改道標籤的設置甚至塔台的重新的調整或是甚至路線的修改那可能匡日費時"},{"start":504.016,"end":518.326,"text":"但是沒有辦法結案的這個部分其實都還是列在這個運安會上面啦那所以說本席還是在這裡先提出就是運安會可以跟行政院還是看如何能夠讓各個部會來配合運安會的一個改善建議那來打"},{"start":520.327,"end":543.628,"text":"提高這個諮詢率啊不然的話院會畢竟許多的專家學者不管是技術或者是法規但是如果說能夠配合來去修正的進度或者是這個比例來講不夠高的話那其實是非常可惜啊那所以本身還是建議就是主委這邊再加強與其他部會的溝通那至於說其他部會的諮詢率的狀況我下次再跟你談好"},{"start":544.605,"end":567.527,"text":"其他部位其實並不多耶大概都是交通部比較多對啊大部分因為主要是交通事故啊但是裡面其實有涉及到國防部啊有涉及到內政部等等的也都有啊那所以說這個相關他們要改善的一個情況那如何能夠提高這個比例跟它的實效性這個行政院每定期都有開一個協調會多久開一次"},{"start":568.248,"end":592.978,"text":"大概半年因為我們會報到他們去嘛那我坦白講半年一次這個間隔太長我坦白講那我很希望說下次可以溝通至少三個月要開一次嘛那不斷縮短吧因為這個畢竟這些重大事故的改善建議都是大家心血的捷徑那這個也是必須要改善的事那行政院都有完全在掌握啦掌握要掌握得好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時31分）謝謝會議主席。有請主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["游委員顥：主委好。剛才在會議之前我有遇到主委，感謝主委誇獎我對運安會還不錯，但主委對於會內業務……既然覺得我對運安會不錯，那麼我希望運安會不管在人力、資源或物力都能充足，這樣才能符合社會各界的期待，希望主委能展現魄力。","延續之前見面時向主委就教的問題。有關人力補充一事，我去年就跟主委提過，當時主委說會跟人事行政總處反映，請問主委目前進度為何？"],["林主任委員信得：目前人力的部分，由於高峰期過了，我們內部也針對每個調查官的主要專長及次要專長做過調查，並成立檢視資源小組，在不是那麼專業的domain knowledge的情況下……我們調查分五個階段，一個是通報現場……"],["游委員顥：主委，請你直接回答我，今年或明年有沒有機會增加人力，甚或擴大編制？"],["林主任委員信得：我們是希望這樣子，但是……"],["游委員顥：目前人事行政總處的回復如何？"],["林主任委員信得：我們知道困難度很高，如果委員能幫我們push一下，我們會非常感謝。"],["游委員顥：我們當然樂意push。目前的回復是沒有辦法？如果沒有辦法的話，那我就質詢人事行政總處，看他如何來給予協助。運安會是那麼重要的單位，攸關國內運輸安全的改善，所以必須要有充足的人力，甚至必須要有充足的資源，畢竟你們必須用人才來決定調查結果！沒關係，雖然目前在人力上沒有更好的消息，但我還是希望能協助運安會提高人力，也希望有所進展，相信這也是同仁們的期待。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：接著請教主委，剛才聽林國成召委在質詢時提到，希望運安會解凍案的報告可以趕快送，你們有準備要送了嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：都在手上，準備要送了！都已經準備了，也寫得差不多了。"],["游委員顥：差不多了？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["游委員顥：畢竟解凍案很重要，其實不管是預算凍結案或刪除案的提出，一定是基於為人民看緊荷包而監督預算的使用，所以不應該成為他們操作大罷免添柴火的理由。尤其運安會負荷那麼重，希望你們能儘快將解凍案的報告送交委員會，讓過程可以儘快加速。其實許多部會都已經送了，召委也提出呼籲跟期待，因此，不管行政院給予怎麼樣的壓力，基於同仁與部會機關業務的立場，我希望可以儘快送出。請問這個月可以完成並送出嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：好，我們跟主計處聯絡看看，應該可以。"],["游委員顥：這個月可以？"],["林主任委員信得：試看看。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。上次本席在質詢時，交通部長有提到每個同仁處理的報告非常多，通常都是重大且影響交通運輸安全的事項才會進行調查，甚至有些可能造成傷亡。那時候交通部陳部長提到，最好的時間是三到六個月，但目前受限於人力的關係，幾乎需要一到三年的時間！本席就教主委，行政程序法第五十一條有所謂的即時性原則，運安會針對重要交通議題的調查報告，是否能有階段性的資訊揭露機制？也就是在一些重大議題上，初步來講調查的……畢竟這些事件都是社會大眾關心與矚目的，如果能有階段性的揭露機制，最好是在三個月內，針對重大事件調查先揭露初步的內容。請問主委，目前在這個機制上的進度為何？"],["林主任委員信得：目前機制應該還算OK，因為在每個事故案件調查過程中，有所謂的調查期間安全通告。在事實資料報告公布時，被調查的機關單位都可以事先……因為他們有參與調查，從一開始參與組織分工會議、參與研討，甚或找證據時都在裡面，所以我們一邊調查，他們也一邊改善，他們都知道。"],["游委員顥：運安會有公信力在，未來針對重大事件的調查，是不是可以在三個月左右做階段性的揭露？運安會可不可以建立這樣的機制與回應？"],["林主任委員信得：我們有新聞發布處理作業要點，如果這個案子是社會所關注的重大案子，那麼在調查到某階段時，我們會適時揭露。"],["游委員顥：時間上大概是什麼時候？"],["林主任委員信得：不一定，因為每個case都不太一樣。"],["游委員顥：針對社會關注的重大事件做這樣的揭露應該是可受公評的。若在三個月左右時做初步揭露，讓同仁先針對社會期待做重點回應，這樣可以達到嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：這是可以做得到的。"],["游委員顥：OK。接下來，剛才許多委員都針對先進駕駛輔助系統ADAS提出質詢，本席也想接著問。在調查及改善過程中，前端在進行調查並蒐集資料時，需要民間車廠提供資訊或配合調查，請問有沒有遇到什麼樣的困難？"],["林主任委員信得：目前還沒有。"],["游委員顥：所以這些車廠或民間業者原則上都會配合運安會？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["游委員顥：在機關的平行聯繫來講，有時候可能需要約談或訪談一些對象，或涉及技術面與司法檢調部分，他們也都全力配合運安會？"],["林主任委員信得：目前都OK，都全力配合。"],["游委員顥：我接著要就教的是各模組尚未完成改善建議的部分，即列表部分。其實運安會比較吃虧的是，你們做出了許多改善建議事項，受建議單位不僅有交通部，可能還包含各部會，甚至可能包含縣市政府，他們針對運安會提出的改善建議內容的執行情況如何？"],["林主任委員信得：這一、兩年完成率確實提高很多。"],["游委員顥：大概多少？"],["林主任委員信得：大概有10%到15%左右。"],["游委員顥：10%到15%可以配合運安會？"],["林主任委員信得：對，確實有改善。"],["游委員顥：以各部會來講，哪個部會的配合率高？哪個部會的配合難度也較高？"],["林主任委員信得：都還不錯。"],["游委員顥：都還不錯？交通部最高嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：委員是指交通部本部，還是底下的高公局……"],["游委員顥：當然都涵蓋在內。"],["林主任委員信得：涵蓋的話，都OK。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，不要讓你在這裡得罪其他部會。本席在這裡還是建議運安會要跟行政院溝通，許多收到改善建議的單位，對於運安會提出的建議，如果它們沒有辦法配合完成，或時間上配合到修法曠日費時，或需要配合到計畫的經費，類似像機場的改道、標線的設置，甚至塔臺的重新調整，或路線的修改，可能曠日費時而沒有辦法結案的部分，其實都還是列在運安會上面，所以本席還是在這裡先提出，運安會還是可以跟行政院看看如何能夠讓各個部會配合運安會的改善建議提高執行率。運安會畢竟有許多專家學者，不管是技術或法規，如果能夠配合修正的進度或比例不夠高的話，其實非常可惜，所以本席還是建議主委再加強與其他部會溝通，至於其他部會執行率的狀況，我下次再跟你探討。"],["林主任委員信得：其他部會其實並不多，大概都是交通部比較多。"],["游委員顥：對，因為主要是交通事故。這裡面其實涉及到國防部、內政部等等的也都有，它們要改善相關的情況，如何能夠提高比例跟時效性……"],["林主任委員信得：行政院定期都有開協調會。"],["游委員顥：多久開一次？"],["林主任委員信得：大概半年，因為我們會報到行政院去，它知道……"],["游委員顥：坦白講半年一次間隔太長。"],["林主任委員信得：我們努力縮短。"],["游委員顥：對，我很希望下次可以溝通至少三個月要開一次，不斷縮短吧！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["游委員顥：畢竟重大事故的改善建議都是大家心血的結晶，也是必須要改善的事。"],["林主任委員信得：行政院都有完全掌握。"],["游委員顥：掌握要掌握得好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員。","請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a402254d4d7036f6a6cf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b498184ff050374ff9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:19:46 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不談玄學就是"},{"start":195.732,"end":213.93,"text":"這裡面的原因我覺得是值得探究啦因為老是撞這個地方這很怪那當然今年一月這個是有媒體報導是有開啟這個輔助駕駛系統那本席啊從這一題裡面我其實很擔憂一個事情"},{"start":215.307,"end":231.897,"text":"科技一直在發展跟進步所以未來這個運劇當中它所包括以後AI的運用或者等等它勢必會越來越多的對人類看起來更方便"},{"start":232.737,"end":258.251,"text":"但是他的安全性他必須跟因為他的安全性不管你雷達不管你用攝像鏡頭就簡單講現在我們可預知的科技的概念跟體系他基本上跟環境都產生很大的關係那我當然不知道這個雲南會調查這個結果是不是因為譬如說標線或者其他的裡面的環境的裝置物讓"},{"start":259.87,"end":278.087,"text":"輔助系統去誤判這個我不知道因為要等你們專家來調查出那個結果但是這個結果啊還要一段時間你七月才公布你所收集到的這些事實狀況那你要再進行調查可能又要一段滿場的時間可是這些科技"},{"start":279.64,"end":291.933,"text":"國人同胞每天正在使用輔助駕駛系統大家也逐漸的熟悉而且我相信很多人或許他就很習慣在某一些時段或者某一些路段他就開啟了輔助駕駛系統"},{"start":294.076,"end":313.007,"text":"那如果這樣的問題不趕快解決我覺得這個其實是一件蠻令人擔憂的事情蠻令人擔憂因為大家都在做這個事情那我講過它跟環境會有關係嘛因為它是電腦所以它透過雷達透過攝像鏡頭然後讀取快速判讀"},{"start":313.8,"end":337.813,"text":"然後這個輔助系統他就會依照這個判讀的結果去做操作但如果這個環境我們沒有辦法細緻的去掌握到特別是一個地方老是撞那裡那這個有一點危險就簡單講就是說下一個會不會又開了如果假設他跟輔助系統的判讀錯誤有關"},{"start":339.724,"end":360.992,"text":"那會不會下一個在那個地方開輔助駕駛系統的人又再來一次所以有時候有一些案子它是有急迫性的就是說它可能對你其他運具或載具的這些使用發生事故 大型事故或許你用比較長的時間 因為它不常被發生"},{"start":364.306,"end":383.578,"text":"所以或許它時效性上可以容許你做一個比較完整性依照你們的進程跟流程去做調查但是本席比較擔心的是老是撞這裡然後這裡面又有一些是開了輔助系統我不知道這有沒有關聯性但我覺得像這種事情應該是不是有一種機制"},{"start":385.134,"end":410.145,"text":"你們應該要儘速的去做至少把這個可能性先排除說應該不是開輔助系統的問題所以主委你現在懂我在講什麼嗎這個可不可以先來去調查了解或者做一點排除或者讓大家安心或者你警告大家最好這裡不要開輔助系統因為它有可能是原因之一"},{"start":413.077,"end":435.924,"text":"這個分析的非常透徹這個案子的調查重點我們是分成三個組在做一個道路環境分組還有車輛跟紀錄器的分組還有一個操作生涯因素因素其中有關道路環境分組裡面特別講要檢視道路跟它的交通工程設計它是不是符合法規就剛剛委員講的跟我們的方向是一致的"},{"start":436.952,"end":461.436,"text":"所以我的意思是說至少你如果沒有你一定要等到這個115年以後才可能把那個調查但是你們預估嘛那可不可以再事先做一點警示或者是狀況的排除就它不是最終報告但優先去把它做一點了解跟讓提醒我覺得這個可不可以"},{"start":462.318,"end":483.48,"text":"這個案子我們已經立案調查那過程中我們有跟高空局有在聯絡高空局事實上他已經對這個路口已經開始在看要怎麼改善他已經在研究了所以是不是輔助系統不知道所以我的意思就是說這是攸關人命"},{"start":484.451,"end":504.796,"text":"所以我但是我知道你們有程序你們要嚴謹因為你們講的話或許會對社會或者對產業的有一點衝擊對但是我的意思還是老話一句人命無價如果說你說一件案子老是就是就發生過一次可是在你的手上就七次都撞同一個地方"},{"start":506.292,"end":531.098,"text":"這件事情我覺得不能夠跟一般的案件等閒失之沒有錯好不好主委你去研究一下看什麼方式去做一點提示提醒或者說確定排除這個應該可不可以提早一下可不可以我們可以研究一下謝謝那第二件齁這個就是我們助理在非安報告裡面早上好像委員有提到這個耳機掉掉到那個椅子那個事情"},{"start":532.352,"end":556.384,"text":"所以這個是這樣子 像這些東西第一個我們不可能禁止大家不戴耳機然後你也不可能禁止不戴那種單顆會掉落那種耳機的確是很容易掉落 我自己使用的經驗來講我也常常會不小心就掉落那要不要制定一個系統 因為後來這個案子的處理方式是拆椅子"},{"start":557.332,"end":581.257,"text":"就是叫飛機先不要飛因為那個耳機裡面有電池嘛那怕產生危險所以我們叫飛機不要飛航空公司也算負責叫飛機不要飛然後拆椅子拆完之後把那個耳機取出然後裝回去然後再飛那像這種案子啊這個以後我認為他掉落的機率蠻高的"},{"start":582.685,"end":597.451,"text":"那這個要不要我們來有一套SOP或者使用什麼樣的方式可以來比拆椅子更可以快速排除因為你動不動一個不小心掉了那飛機可能一耽誤又一個小時兩個小時甚至更久"},{"start":598.311,"end":621.823,"text":"那這個對我們在航空業或者說對旅客的甚至商務的方便性跟效率上面這個都會造成很大的衝擊所以我的看法是第一個不可能叫人家不戴耳機第二個不可能影響飛安安全我們就給他飛了所以我們一定要有第三種選擇就是怎麼樣可以快速排除所以"},{"start":623.061,"end":648.286,"text":"醫院會是不是找至少國行裡面椅子的設計它有多少種樣態那這些樣態可能如果發生這種情況它掉落的位置在什麼位置有可能可以做什麼樣處理這個是不是可以來做一個SOP或者一個簡單的指引這種東西我們可以來研議看看好不好或是把它綠定出來對對對就是建議他們找大家來討論一下看這個因為這個"},{"start":650.593,"end":675.745,"text":"諸葛我不知道你有沒有使用啦你應該沒有使用啦對像我就是有使用的可能我年紀還算輕啦不知道這沒有老人家的問題啦很多老人家我看他也在用因為我在公園看到那個老人家在運動的時候他也帶跟我相同的耳機可是我覺得這個耳機真的容易掉真的容易掉那像我們家買這種耳機啊最常發生的原因就是掉了一個"},{"start":677.017,"end":700.535,"text":"就是小朋友不小心掉了或者我自己也不小心就掉了掉了一顆所以我覺得掉落是會容易會容易發生的事情所以研議一下啦好沒問題我們來先走幾個開會對這個應該不宜拖太久啦看怎麼處理好不好三個月半年內就把他把這個排除的方式有一個指引啦是謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時19分）謝謝主席，大家早。請林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。有兩個議題想跟你分享一下一些意見跟看法，第一個是今天早上或許有委員問到，關於楊梅休息站的分隔島，我隨便查了一下，這幾年應該有好幾起事故都是撞這個分隔島，最新的就是在今年1月25日，有人撞了分隔島之後起火造成傷亡。主委大概知道這個事情嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對，我知道。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們也開始著手進行調查了？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：公路組應該有在調查喔？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：現在調查的進度是什麼？"],["曾組長仁松：跟委員報告，目前我們已經去蒐集相關的資料，並且把電動車拖吊到消防署的場地裡面，去做車輛的電池檢查。我們預計在7月份的時候出一個事實資料的報告，會再去做分析跟審查，所以最晚會在明年7月完成這個調查報告的發布。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，組長，每次撞那一個分隔島的都是電動車嗎？都是含有自動駕駛還是輔助駕駛系統的車子嗎？就你們現行的資料來看，我先不管那個調查最後的結果跟原因，以目前可見的，那些撞上去的是不是都是電動車，或是輔助駕駛系統的車子？"],["曾組長仁松：跟委員報告，我們已經蒐集歷次的資料……"],["蔡委員其昌：那裡撞了幾次了？根據你現在手上有的資料，那裡撞了幾次了？就那一個分隔島，每次都是撞那一個……"],["曾組長仁松：對，目前大概……今天我手上掌握的大概有7件。"],["蔡委員其昌：7件？"],["曾組長仁松：對，有一個是遊覽車……"],["蔡委員其昌：也撞那一個？"],["曾組長仁松：對，也是撞那個。"],["蔡委員其昌：這7件的車輛是否都是自駕系統或者有輔助駕駛系統的？"],["曾組長仁松：有3件是有開啟的，駕駛說他有開啟……"],["蔡委員其昌：先不管他有沒有開啟，是不是都是這樣的車子？"],["曾組長仁松：並不是，一般的車輛也會去……"],["蔡委員其昌：那你不覺得很弔詭嗎？一個分隔島被撞了7次，就你持有的資料，至少它就被撞了7次，你會不會覺得這個……現在不是7月，不談玄學啦！我覺得這裡面的原因是值得探究的，因為老是撞這個地方，這很怪！","今年1月的案例，媒體報導他是有開啟輔助駕駛系統。從這一題裡面，本席其實很擔憂一個事情，科技一直在發展跟進步，所以未來的運具，包括以後AI應用勢必會越來越多，看起來對人類更方便，但是它的安全性必須跟……對於安全性，不管你是用雷達、不管你是用攝像鏡頭，簡單講，現在我們可預知的科技概念跟體系基本上跟環境都產生很大的關係。我不知道運安會調查結果是不是因為……譬如標線或者是其他環境裝置物讓輔助系統誤判，這個我不知道，因為要等你們專家調查出結果，但是這個結果還要一段時間，你們7月才公布你們所蒐集到的事實狀況，還要再進行調查，這可能又要一段蠻長的時間。","對於這些科技，國人同胞每天正在使用，大家也逐漸熟悉輔助駕駛系統，而且我相信或許有很多人很習慣在某一些時段或者某一些路段開啟輔助駕駛系統，如果這樣的問題不趕快解決，我覺得這其實是一件蠻令人擔憂的事情，因為大家都在做這個事情。我講過，它跟環境會有關係，因為它是電腦，所以它透過雷達、透過攝像鏡頭讀取，快速判讀之後告訴輔助系統，它就會依照這個判讀結果去操作，但如果我們沒有辦法細緻的掌握環境，特別是老是撞到那個地方，這個有點危險啦！簡單來講，下一個會不會又開了……假設它跟輔助系統的判讀錯誤有關，會不會下一個在那個地方開輔助駕駛系統的人又再來一次？所以有時候有一些案子是有急迫性的，可能對於其他運具或載具的使用，當發生大型事故，或許你們會用比較長的時間，因為它不常發生，也或許它時效性長，可以容許你們依照進程跟流程去做比較完整的調查，但是本席比較擔心的是，老是撞這裡，然後又有一些是開了輔助系統。我不知道這有沒有關聯性，但這種事情是不是應該要有一種機制？你們應該要儘速去做，至少把這個可能性先排除──應該不是開輔助系統的問題。主委你現在懂我在講什麼嗎？這個可不可以先去調查、了解？或者做相關排除之後讓大家安心，還是你警告大家在那裡最好不要開輔助系統，因為它有可能是原因之一。"],["林主任委員信得：對，委員分析的非常透澈，關於這個案子的調查重點，我們分成三個組在做，一個是道路環境分組，還有車輛跟紀錄器的分組，還有一個是操作生還因素，其中有關道路環境的分組裡面，特別講到要檢視這個道路跟交通工程設計是不是符合法規，就如剛剛委員講的，跟我們的方向是一致的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以我的意思是，你們一定要等到115年以後才可能把那個調查完成，這是你們預估的嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：可不可以事先做一點警示或者是狀況的排除？它雖然不是最終的報告，但優先把它做一點了解跟提醒，這個可不可以？"],["林主任委員信得：針對這個案子，我們已經立案調查，過程中我們有跟高公局聯絡，事實上高公局對這個路口已經開始在看要怎麼改善，他們已經在研究了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以是不是輔助系統？不知道？我的意思是，這攸關人命，我知道你們有程序，你們要嚴謹，因為你們講的話或許會對社會、對產業有一點衝擊……"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我的意思是……還是老話一句，人命無價……"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果一件案子只有發生過一次……可是在你的手上就有7次都撞同一個地方，這件事情我覺得不能夠跟一般的案件等閒視之，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委去研究一下，看用什麼方式做一點提示、提醒，或者確定排除，這個可不可以提早一下？"],["林主任委員信得：可以，我們可以研究這個方向。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。第二件，我們助理在飛安報告裡面……這個早上好像有委員提到，就是耳機掉入椅子的那件事情。主委，是這樣子的，像這些東西，第一個，我們不可能禁止大家戴耳機，也不可能禁止戴那種單顆會掉落的耳機，它的確是很容易掉落，以我自己的使用經驗來講，我也常常會不小心掉落，那要不要制定一個系統？因為這個案子後來的處理方式是拆椅子，就是叫飛機先不要飛，因為那個耳機裡面有電池，怕會產生危險，所以叫飛機不要飛，航空公司也算負責，他們叫飛機不要飛，然後拆椅子，拆完之後把那個耳機取出，把椅子裝回去之後再飛。像這種案子，我認為它以後掉落的機率蠻高的，主委，這要不要有一套SOP？或者使用什麼樣的方式可以比拆椅子更快速排除，因為一個不小心掉了，飛機可能就耽誤一個小時、兩個小時甚至更久，這對航空業或者對旅客及商務的方便性跟效率都會造成很大的衝擊，所以我的看法是，第一個，不可能叫人家不戴耳機；第二個，不可能在影響飛安的情況下就讓它飛了，所以一定要有第三種選擇，也就是怎麼樣可以快速排除狀況。因此，運安會是不是先看看國航在椅子的設計上有多少種樣態？一旦發生這種情況，這些樣態所掉落的位置會在哪裡？可以做怎麼樣的處理？這是不是可以做成SOP或簡單的指引？"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以來研議看看……"],["蔡委員其昌：好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：或把它律定出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對。"],["林主任委員信得：建議他們……"],["蔡委員其昌：找大家來討論一下。我不知道主委有沒有使用，我想你應該沒有使用，但我是有在使用的，可能我年紀還算輕，不過這不是老人家的問題，我看很多老人家也在用。我看到老人家在公園運動時，也戴跟我相同的耳機。我覺得這種耳機真的很容易掉，買這種耳機最常發生的就是掉了一顆，小朋友不小心掉了，或者自己不小心就掉了，可見是很容易掉落的，所以研議一下，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題，我們先找幾個單位來開會，看怎麼處理……"],["蔡委員其昌：這件事不宜拖太久，好不好？三個月或半年內就提出排除問題的指引，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員關心。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4095b300cfa8af1f9cf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b491ed3886e2543e9df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時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謝謝主席喔 麻煩邀請我們林主委好 應安會林主委主委好這剛剛"},{"start":12.246,"end":40.808,"text":"我剛剛聽到這個林俊憲委員的這個詢答啦那有提到說可能台鐵發生事故的時候那都會說等運安會的人來到現場所以等了一些時間其實我自己本身有這樣子的一個經驗啦在之前有一次連假的時候那也是在大概在平溪縣的時候有一個出軌啦出軌的事情那他們也是用這樣子的方式回答我說要等到運安會的人到了現場把該採集的資料採集完了之後他們的工程單位的人員才能夠去做"},{"start":41.568,"end":63.318,"text":"後續的一個搶救跟復救的一個工作當然等我們的人來我們這個可能在上班日或者是連假的時候我們人員到達的時間總是比較沒有一定因為我們畢竟不是像他們那種大的單位隨時都有人駐守那我想確認一下我們運安會針對各項的事故那可能尤其是公路的運輸或者是鐵道運輸這個可能會比較影響到這個"},{"start":67.22,"end":75.369,"text":"通勤 民眾通勤的一些問題我們有沒有在不同的時段要求我們的同仁抵達的一個時間的限制就自通報期"},{"start":77.545,"end":102.944,"text":"事實上我們有24小時在值班你們都24小時值班對 我們一通報就是第一時間就同仁如果是下班時間都會馬上就會調回來所以各組也都會有都有各組24小時值班我們運安會有一個24小時值班人員這個值班人員就負責通報屬於航空的水路鐵道什麼就通報各調查組的人該回來是 所以說休息的時候就會把他們Call回來沒有錯"},{"start":103.985,"end":109.925,"text":"包括他們休息的時候我們也都會有待命的就是說我們雖然是休息但是可能也都會有相關的一個"},{"start":110.902,"end":135.567,"text":"待命的輪值表就是說如果說在這段休假的期間有需要的話雖然說你休假那我們會優先找誰會有這樣子的一個機制嗎有各組各組放假日長假日都有輪值表就是說你下班你雖然是譬如說前面一節假期嘛四天那你是輪到的你不准離開大台北地區你不可以到南部去有都有是嗎那有相關的要求抵達時間的一個要求嗎"},{"start":136.647,"end":153.793,"text":"呃 最快的速度都會快最快了怎麼都是一到就包計程車就過去因為可能台鐵都會說我們的人先到了但是運航位的人還沒到我想這個這個是誤傳誤傳喔好 那沒關係我們現場調查總是要一些時間啦我想 有時候各自單位會有不同的立場啦"},{"start":155.593,"end":182.901,"text":"指責別的單位都是最容易的啦那就是可能之後在相關的摩擦或者說在怎樣的情況下我們台鐵能夠做哪一些預制的準備動作可能在等我們運安會在調查的時候人員到達前或者是調查過程 收證的過程中我們哪一些處置桌子有時候我們也可以跟哪一些比較頻繁發生事故的單位有一些在時程上面的一些合作的模式啦希望說我們後面能夠多一些協調 少一點摩擦這樣子是 因為"},{"start":185.526,"end":206.629,"text":"因為我們最快的時間尤其是鐵路因為他很快就要復舊要恢復他的運轉我們會最快的速度去事實上還有一個原因就是我們最快的時間去會把證據流失我們要蒐集證據我們要帶著儀器不是空手去我們要帶著儀器有的儀器是重型的有的時候是輕型的不一定要看case by case"},{"start":206.769,"end":225.514,"text":"是好那就後續再麻煩是謝謝委員長那另外啊再看我們的這個今天的報告啊因為之前去年有一個那個入籍的船隻嘛那在野柳外海擱淺嘛那我就看了一下我們後面針對各個單位啊針對各個單位我們預案會提出的缺失未改正的一些統計表我們發現"},{"start":227.734,"end":256.617,"text":"有些單位跟其他單位落差的還蠻大的包括航港局這個他的案件數總案件數就是自己一個人高高在上這樣子那三年以上的三年以上的雖然說案件數沒那麼高但是台鐵這個單位確實也比其他單位的數量明顯的增加了許多我不曉得我們實際上在跟這兩個單位在溝通的時候我們是提出了哪些東西讓他們好像沒有辦法達成有沒有辦法做一些減要的概述因為"},{"start":257.13,"end":277.569,"text":"可能今年到了這個我們颱風季要如果說有任何的水域發生事故的話對我們的漁民大家都是非常擔心的啦我們也是希望說避免那看到這樣子的一個未達成缺失的一個案件統計大家真的還是會比較擔心的能不能針對這兩個單位的缺失狀況跟大家說明一下"},{"start":280.373,"end":307.421,"text":"呃有些單位像台鐵台鐵他的被安全感他的那個項目裡面的設計台鐵的組織要調整譬如說他要安裝這個駕駛式的影音記錄器設置等等他要設計法規的修訂等等所以這些對台鐵來講就是屬於就是他幾十年來沒做突然要做他需要制度面甚至他必須要跟同仁所以跟經費有關嗎還是單純管理面的問題"},{"start":308.34,"end":331.37,"text":"有的是經費有的是管理面有的是觀念的溝通好那可不可以會後就是針對台鐵的這五項的缺失我們三年以上的沒有改善的這五項具體的一個項目我們的可能給他們的資料也給我們也給我辦公室或者是給交委會一份這樣子沒問題那另外港港局的部分20多件"},{"start":333.157,"end":348.305,"text":"香港局齁都是飲水人的這個安全管理的問題飲水人辦事處啊強制飲水區啊或者是這個VTS系統的整個制度內的改善等等他也是長期以來說累積出來的問題所以他需要較多時間"},{"start":349.286,"end":378.699,"text":"所以就是長期累積的問題所以這個算是岸上管裡面的問題還是航行上面的一些管裡面的問題都有但是最主要還是在岸上這邊的問題岸上這邊的問題嗎那陸籍的船隻的這個部分我們預計五月提這個會有先會有一個中期的一個報告算是一個中期的報告嘛那年底的時候會有一個完整的報告那在這段時間那大家當然還是會擔心啦那有沒有部分的東西是可以先立即要求航港局去做改善的"},{"start":379.982,"end":401.889,"text":"我們可以給委員一些資料就是說他有分階段分期之後我們可以把資料給委員參考就是分階段就出判的時候就會有一些可能希望他們改善的項目然後中期的時候5月的這份報告也會有部分的改項目包括最後期末的時候今年年底的部分也會有一些具體的改項目是這樣子分階段嗎"},{"start":402.969,"end":428.556,"text":"都沒有說分短中長期啦但是我們調查報告過程調查過程中是就如我剛剛講他有有譬如說事實資料報告然後調查期限當前通告等等那這些過程中因為水路單位 港港局 港務公司 交通部因為每一個調查案都是屬於參與式調查他們都有派員來參與所以他們在參與的過程中就會知道他們都已經知道都會知道嘛"},{"start":428.956,"end":457.022,"text":"所以很多調查案到我們最終調查報告出來之後然後提出安全改善建議結果他安全改善一下子就提出來因為他過程中已經開始在做了那到目前野柳的這個個案我們目前所認定可能最大的為師會是在哪一邊就是需要具體改善的項目就是我剛剛講制度沒有就飲水人的問題嘛飲水辦事處的問題等等嘛有沒有具體的就是這個制度的哪個問題"},{"start":457.884,"end":473.249,"text":"有就是他移水瓦他要蓋嘛他修移水瓦花很多時間他已經花了一兩年的時間因為那個是一個很大的一個花有沒有辦法用比較白畫的方式就是可能他造成這次事故最主要的原因白畫一點好我請水路主調查因為他比較細好"},{"start":476.572,"end":495.695,"text":"有關於那個是玉州啟航他從基隆港離開那個時候剛好是颱風他去避颱他到廣東附近避颱這個避颱的過程中因為外面的颱風外圍環流非常的強烈所以他沒辦法順利的到達他的目的去避航"},{"start":496.095,"end":521.464,"text":"那這中間他就被這個強烈的風就吹到這個就是就是這個岸上擱淺那這個案子呢他最主要的事就是剛好談到他避台他如果去因為他是在這個港區裡面碰到颱風的時候我如果及時讓這條船就出去但是他之前要破有個案子他把兩個這個他把一個喬斯基給給推倒自己喬斯基也壞掉"},{"start":522.044,"end":538.884,"text":"所以這個案子本身又要賠償 它談賠償需要時間所以這個賠償的時間 也耽擱到後面的離港時間所以是一連串的 包括在港區裡面它什麼時候要離開港區需要飲水人所以剛剛我們主委提到這個飲水人的事情"},{"start":539.424,"end":564.939,"text":"所以就是說這是一連串的事情就在一起然後到時候他就沒辦法這個順利這個去避難所以這中間呢我們就牽涉到的是有飲水欄的啦有這個防台措施啦還有這個這條船呢他因為他是擱淺在這個我們的北海岸這附近但是這個時候因為天氣非常不好他去一條非常大的這個救難船但是我們國內目前其實並沒有這麼大型的救難船"},{"start":565.819,"end":589.598,"text":"已經知道他會擱淺但是他還沒擱淺之前能不能趕快把他抓回來這是一個我們要討論的議題所以後面這個也是我們運安會調查的重點就是事故發生之後處理的緊急應變問題是以上好那就是今年颱風季也要到了去年每年都有颱風那就希望說大家擔心的事情我們能夠督促我們的香港局不要再讓類似的情況再次的發生再麻煩我們的運安會好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":562,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時9分）謝謝主席。麻煩邀請林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：主委好。我剛剛聽到林俊憲委員的詢答，有提到臺鐵發生事故的時候，都會說等運安會的人到現場，所以等了一些時間。其實我自己本身也有這樣子的經驗，之前有一次連假的時候，也是在平溪線出軌的事情，他們也是用這樣子的方式回答我，說要等到運安會的人到現場把該採集的資料採集完之後，他們的工程單位人員才能夠做後續搶救跟復舊的工作。當然等你們的人來，可能在上班日或者是連假的時候，你們人員到達的時間總是比較沒有一定，畢竟不是像他們那種大的單位隨時都有人駐守。我想確認一下運安會針對各項事故，尤其是公路運輸或者是鐵道運輸，可能比較會影響到民眾通勤的一些問題，自通報起有沒有在不同的時段要求同仁抵達的時間限制？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上我們有24小時值班。"],["廖委員先翔：你們都24小時值班？"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們一通報就是第一時間，同仁如果是下班時間就會馬上調回來。"],["廖委員先翔：所以各組也都會有？"],["林主任委員信得：都有。"],["廖委員先翔：各組24小時值班？"],["林主任委員信得：不是，我們運安會有一個24小時的值班人員，那位值班人員就負責通報屬於航空、水路、鐵道的，會通報各調查組的人該回來就回來。"],["廖委員先翔：是，所以休息的時候就會把他們call回來這樣子。"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["廖委員先翔：包括他們休息的時候也都會有待命的，雖然是休息，但是可能也都會有相關的待命輪值表，如果在這段休假期間有需要的話，雖然在休假，你們會優先找誰，會有這樣的機制嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：有，各組放假日、長假日都有輪值表，例如雖然是清明節假期4天，但是你有輪到的，你就不准離開大臺北地區，你不可以到南部去，都有這樣的機制。"],["廖委員先翔：是嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["廖委員先翔：有相關抵達時間的要求嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：最快的速度都會快，都是一到就包計程車過去。"],["廖委員先翔：臺鐵可能都會說他們的人先到了，但是運安會的人還沒到，我想這個……"],["林主任委員信得：這個是誤傳啦！"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，你們現場調查總是要一些時間，我想有時候各單位會有不同的立場，指責別單位都是最容易的啦，可能之後在相關的摩擦或者在怎樣的情況下，臺鐵能夠做哪一些預置的準備動作，可能在等運安會調查的時候，人員到達前或者是調查蒐證的過程中有哪些處置措施，有時候跟一些比較頻繁發生事故的單位在時程上面的合作模式，希望後面能夠多一些協調，少一點摩擦。"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們最快的時程，尤其是鐵路，因為它很快就要復舊、要恢復它的運轉嘛！我們會最快的時間去。事實上還有一個原因，如果我們不是最快的時間去，證據會流失，且我們要蒐集證據就要帶著儀器，也不是空手去，我們要帶著儀器，有的儀器是重型的，有的時候是輕型，不一定，要看case，case by case。"],["廖委員先翔：那就後續再麻煩。"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，再看今天的報告，去年有一艘陸籍船隻在野柳外海擱淺，我就看了一下後面針對各個單位，運安會提出的缺失未改正的一些統計表，我們發現有些單位跟其他單位落差還滿大的，包括航港局的總案件數就是自己一個人高高在上，3年以上的雖然說案件數沒那麼高，但是臺鐵這個單位確實也比其他單位的數量明顯增加了許多。我不曉得你們實際上在跟這兩個單位溝通的時候，你們是提出了哪些東西讓他們好像沒有辦法達成，有沒有辦法做一些簡要概述？今年到了颱風季，如果有任何水域發生事故，我們的漁民都非常擔心，我們也希望避免看到這樣子未達成缺失案件統計。大家真的還是會比較擔心，你能不能針對這兩個單位的缺失狀況跟大家說明一下？"],["林主任委員信得：有些單位像臺鐵，臺鐵的改善項目裡面涉及臺鐵的組織要調整，譬如說他要安裝、設置駕駛室的影音紀錄器涉及法規的修訂等等，這些對臺鐵來講，就是屬於幾十年來沒做，突然要做，是制度面，甚至必須要跟同仁、工會溝通。"],["廖委員先翔：所以跟經費有關嗎？還是單純管理面的問題？"],["林主任委員信得：有的是經費、有的是管理面、有的是觀念的溝通，都有。"],["廖委員先翔：好，會後可不可以針對臺鐵3年以上沒有改善的這五項具體項目，你們給他們的資料，也給我辦公室或者是給交委會一份？"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，航港局的部分呢？二十多件。"],["林主任委員信得：航港局都是引水人的安全管理問題，引水人辦事處、強制引水區或者是VTS系統等制度面的改善等等，也是長期以來累積出來的問題，所以需要較多時間。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是長期累積的問題，這算是岸上管理面的問題，還是航行管理面的問題？"],["林主任委員信得：都有，但是最主要還是岸上的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：岸上這邊的問題嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對，都有。"],["廖委員先翔：陸籍船隻的部分，我們預計5月會先有一個中期報告，年底的時候會有一個完整報告，這段時間大家當然還是會擔心，有沒有部分的內容是可以先立即要求航港局改善的？"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以會後給委員一些資料，說他有分階段、分期做，我們可以把資料給委員參考。"],["廖委員先翔：就是分階段，初判的時候就會有一些可能希望他們改善的項目，然後中期的時候，5月的這份報告也會有部分的改善項目，包括最後期末的時候，今年年底的部分也會有一些具體的改善項目，是這樣子分階段嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：倒沒有分短、中、長期，但是我們調查的過程中，就如同我剛剛講，譬如說事實資料報告，然後調查期間安全通告等等，這些過程中水路單位，包括航港局、港務公司、交通部，因為每一個調查案都是屬於參與式調查，他們都有派員參與。"],["廖委員先翔：所以他們在參與的過程中就會知道？"],["林主任委員信得：他們都已經知道。"],["廖委員先翔：都會知道嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：很多調查案到我們最終調查報告出來之後提出安全改善建議，結果安全改善他一下子就提出來，因為過程中他已經開始在做了。"],["廖委員先翔：目前野柳的這個個案認定可能最大的違失會是在哪一邊？就是需要具體改善的項目。"],["林主任委員信得：就是我剛剛講制度面嘛！就是引水員的問題、引水辦事處的問題等等。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有具體制度的哪個問題？"],["林主任委員信得：有，就是引水法要改，修引水法花很多時間，已經花了一、兩年的時間，因為那個是一個很大的法規。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有辦法用比較白話的方式？就是可能造成這一次事故最主要的原因，白話一點。"],["林主任委員信得：好，我請水路調查組來講，因為它比較細。"],["廖委員先翔：好。"],["蘇組長水灶：委員好。有關於這個部分主要是鈺州啟航，它從基隆港離開，那個時候剛好是颱風，它要到廣東附近避颱，在避颱的過程中，因為颱風外圍環流非常強烈，所以它沒辦法順利到達目的地去避颱，這中間就被強烈的風吹到岸上擱淺。這個案子最主要就是它要避颱，它在港區裡面碰到颱風來的時候，我如何及時讓這條船出去，但是它之前又有一個案子，它把一個橋式機給推倒，自己橋式機也壞掉。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["蘇組長水灶：所以這個案子本身又要賠償，但談賠償需要時間，這個賠償的時間耽擱到後面的離港時間，所以是一連串的，包括在港區裡面什麼時候要離開港區需要引水人，就是剛剛我們主委提到引水人的事情，所以這是一連串的事情糾在一起，最後它就沒辦法順利避颱，所以這中間牽涉到的有引水人的、有防颱措施。還有這條船是擱淺在我們的北海岸附近，這個時候因為天氣非常不好，它需要一條非常大的救難船，但是我們國內目前其實並沒有這麼大型的救難船，已經知道它會擱淺，它還沒擱淺之前，能不能趕快把它抓回來，這是一個我們要討論的議題。"],["廖委員先翔：所以後面這個也是我們運安會調查的重點……"],["蘇組長水灶：對，也是我們調查重點。"],["廖委員先翔：就是事故發生之後處理的緊急應變問題。"],["蘇組長水灶：是，以上。"],["廖委員先翔：好，今年颱風季也要到了，每年都會有颱風，就大家擔心的事情，希望你們能夠督促航港局，不要再讓類似的情況再次發生，再麻煩運安會，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請蔡其昌副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a461a02fd460881bf3cf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b499f7d644b0591455c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:00:37 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我們運安會是不是有面臨一個所謂的資料取得困難甚至是一個多頭管轄的問題議員的了解 你們在調查這個鐵路事故的時候要跟台鐵索取這個行控資料調查非安的時候要跟民航局跟航管中心借這個資料"},{"start":285.859,"end":314.27,"text":"而且有時候還涉及外包的一個維修業者那主委 如果一旦事故發生那院會能不能在第一時間取得完整沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料目前為止應該沒有 取得都是OK的這樣是不是有必要我們來推動一個跨部會即時資料的調閱平台跟一個事故資料的備份機制來避免我們的調查過程受到阻礙這有沒有這個必要性"},{"start":315.083,"end":342.86,"text":"要不許執行長你看看這個因為這個涉及多模組的報告委員目前我們在包括航空包括鐵道的一個部分我們在取得資料的部分目前各單位都是相當的配合沒有問題是目前為止沒有聽到有任何的一個困難那有沒有必要來推動這個跨部會的即時資料調閱平台謝謝委員這邊的一個關心那如果未來我們有"},{"start":344.553,"end":349.123,"text":"有相關的這樣子一個需求的話我們是不是再請委員再協助本會"},{"start":350.236,"end":376.098,"text":"我想這個是很重要的一個機制啦這個我們也應該是要立即取得資料趕後來做調查那我另外還是要提醒主委因為我們現在我們運安會的這個調查報告有時候等半年甚至一年才會出來這個我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了而且對於我們社會來講大家知道事故發生之後就是要知道真相但是我們現在都一直在等等幾步等了沒這個消息"},{"start":376.998,"end":393.838,"text":"這個部分的那個機制 主委要怎麼去做一個階段性的資訊公開的制度怎麼樣讓我們這個社會大眾能夠盡快了解一下這個進度這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃委員這個意見真的非常好因為我們是一個參與式的調查"},{"start":395.78,"end":421.821,"text":"那麼調查過程中我們會有一個叫做調查期間的安全通告那最主要我們中間前半段還有一個事實資料報告但是事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講說這個案子最主要有幾個幾個幾個現象發生讓他知道那真正的原因因為我們的原因尤其是水路如果有當然我們要精準啊對對對我們有設計一場保險里面所以我們會不會要很精準"},{"start":422.361,"end":447.796,"text":"但譬如說我們第一階段一個月之內能不能有個初步的一個報告三個月之內能不能有一個進度的一個報告我們其實有初步報告是啊 我覺得這樣對社會大眾有一個高台我們往這個方向來努力啦每個案子都有初步報告主委我再請教如果說你們報告交給主管機關之後我們的對方不採納我們這樣的一個建議我們有什麼樣的一個機制"},{"start":448.996,"end":470.281,"text":"事實上我們的事實資料報告出來 監察院都會拿去看看監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告就會跟 欸你這個單位有行政疏失啊什麼但是我們不是要以處罰為目的 我們是要找出根本的噪音這才是我們的關鍵啊 對對是啦 如果不接受報告這個事情 後續還是不改進這個怎麼做處理"},{"start":472.697,"end":492.137,"text":"後續我們會流程上看看用怎麼樣請到對社會大眾關注的案子會讓他更體貼我們可以適時的可以總是找出問題一定要改進啊改進我們也要去追蹤啊要追蹤不然你們在報告有什麼意義沒意義啊事故還是會發生啊"},{"start":493.437,"end":504.492,"text":"這個螺絲還是會掉滿地啊那我們一般行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院列管的時候我們跟行政院講行政院也有政務委也在有時候會定期開這個會請交通部、鄉會主管那個局處會來"},{"start":508.397,"end":524.819,"text":"所以針對剛剛我提的那幾個點齁能不能在一個月之內給我們一個書面的報告針對我講的包含這個階段性的資訊公告還有一個所謂的一個調閱平台的部分我們是不是做一個研究好不好一個月之內給我一個報告好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":502,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時）謝謝主席。有請林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早。主委，運安會是臺灣跨運具安全調查的最高專責機構，這幾年下來，我們發現一個很嚴重的問題，就是整個運輸安全制度上面存在高度的結果導向，而不是風險導向，所以今天有幾個問題要請教一下主委。剛剛林俊憲委員提的，我自己也發現好幾個問題，就是運安會的立案標準過於僵化，明明很多案件存在危險，已經出了事故，運安會卻沒有介入進行高風險調查處理的機制。主委，問題到底出在哪裡？"],["林主任委員信得：委員講的確實沒有錯，一般外面的認知是這個有影響，運安會為什麼沒有調查？但問題是法律規定在重大運輸範圍裡面，它有一個律定。剛剛林俊憲委員講的也沒有錯，我們有另外一個霸王條款，如果認為造成人民生命、財產、安全或什麼的，我們就應該要介入調查，確實是有這個機制。"],["徐委員富癸：對啊！主委，你說我們講的都沒錯，但是要怎麼去改變這樣的制度？"],["林主任委員信得：對、對！有幾個案子，例如今天早上講的有一些電動車，我們都主動去關切，說這個案子要調查，確實是這樣子。"],["徐委員富癸：好，主委，像我剛剛要舉的例子，去年臺鐵有一個內惟案，這個事故主委知道嗎？有一台3334次的區間車司機員沒有遵守SOP倒車，聽起來這件事情到最後還好沒有出事情，所以你們好像就把它等閒視之、沒有認真處理，有這樣的情形嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有調查。"],["徐委員富癸：像這樣的制度怎麼去處理？你們總是這麼被動式的調查，這樣的機制難道不應該檢討嗎？還是你們應該建立一個高潛在風險事故的立案機制？"],["林主任委員信得：我是不是請鐵道組的人說明？"],["徐委員富癸：好，請說。"],["吳組長吉村：委員好。跟委員報告，內惟站這一個案子，我們有主動去瞭解，過去臺鐵有幾次司機員停車位置不當，不管他有沒有通報，我們都會主動瞭解，沒有立案是因為它沒有到達立案的門檻，但是我們有持續關注，我們會視情況啟用霸王條款去立案。我舉一個例子，過去在年底臺鐵有幾次調車的事件，因為我們發現到它的頻率很高，所以我們在今年就啟動霸王條款來立案調查，以上。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我請教一下，像運安會專業資源跟人力的部分，我記得上次我們在委員會一直在討論，到目前為止，相關的人力跟專業資源的部分還有什麼不足的地方嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：目前我們人力還OK，但是委員剛剛提的風險導向確實是一個很好的idea，如果調查報告最後找出根本的肇因，在我們報告的過程中提到跟風險因素有關係時，我們也會進行逐件分析，所以類似事件出來的時候，我們對定性、定量都會做。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！在此還是要提醒一下主委，現在運具的領域都不一樣，需要事故調查的人力也要包含像智慧公路、無人機，還有自駕車這些新興運具的調查專業，是不是這樣？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["徐委員富癸：才能夠符合這樣的需求嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們現在也引用AI的技術進來，每一個組都有在用，開始在引導了。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分還是應該要趕快去盤點、應該去落實，如果沒有人力要怎麼進行這些工作？主委，我想這不用客氣，如果需要補人就應該要補人啦！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，主委，運安會是不是有面臨資料取得困難，甚至是多頭管轄的問題？以我們的瞭解，你們在調查鐵路事故的時候，要跟臺鐵索取行控資料，調查飛安的時候，要跟民航局跟航管中心借資料，而且有時候還會涉及外包的維修業者。主委，一旦事故發生，運安會能不能在第一時間取得完整、沒有經過篡改的關鍵資料？"],["林主任委員信得：目前為止，應該沒有……"],["徐委員富癸：應該沒有這個現象啦？"],["林主任委員信得：取得都是OK的。"],["徐委員富癸：是不是有必要推動跨部會即時資料的調閱平臺跟事故資料的備份機制，避免你們的調查過程受到阻礙，有沒有這個必要性？"],["林主任委員信得：要不要請執行長來看看？因為這個涉及到多模組的部分。"],["林執行長沛達：報告委員，包括航空、鐵道，我們在取得資料的部分，目前各單位都相當地配合。"],["徐委員富癸：沒有問題？"],["林執行長沛達：是。目前為止，沒有聽到有任何的困難。"],["徐委員富癸：有沒有必要推動跨部會的即時資料調閱平臺？"],["林執行長沛達：謝謝委員的關心，如果未來我們有相關的需求，是不是再請委員協助本會？"],["徐委員富癸：我想這個是很重要的機制，你們也應該要立即取得資料，趕快調查。另外，我還是要提醒主委，運安會的調查報告有時候要等半年，甚至一年才會出來，我覺得這個時效真的是太慢了。對社會來講，事故發生之後，大家就是要知道真相，但是我們現在都一直在等，等半天也等不到消息。對這部分的機制，主委，要怎麼去做一個階段性資訊公開的制度、怎麼樣讓社會大眾能夠儘快瞭解相關進度？這部分有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["林主任委員信得：委員這個意見真的非常好，我們是參與式調查，在調查過程中，我們會有叫作調查期間的安全通告，最主要我們在前半段還有一個事實資料報告，事實資料就是會跟社會大眾講這個案子最主要有幾個現象發生，讓大家知道，至於真正的原因，尤其是水路，如果有……"],["徐委員富癸：當然你們要精準啦！對，但是前面……"],["林主任委員信得：對！有涉及賠償、保險理賠，所以我們後面要很精準。"],["徐委員富癸：譬如說，第一階段在一個月之內能不能有一個初步報告、三個月之內能不能有一個進度的報告，是不是可以這樣？"],["林主任委員信得：我們確實有初步報告。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！我覺得這樣對社會大眾也有一個交代。"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯，我們有處理。"],["徐委員富癸：你們往這個方向來努力啦！"],["林主任委員信得：每案子都有初步報告。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我再請教，如果你們的報告交給主管機關之後，對方不採納你們這樣的建議，你們有什麼樣的機制？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上，我們的事實資料報告出來後，監察院都會拿去看，監察院就直接根據我們的事實資料報告，跟這個單位說有行政疏失或什麼的，但我們不是要以處罰為目的，而是要找出根本的肇因。"],["徐委員富癸：這才是你們的關鍵啊！"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊，那有沒有遇到不接受報告的事情？後續如果還是沒有改進怎麼處理？"],["林主任委員信得：我們會從流程上看看用怎麼樣的方式，對社會大眾關注的案子會讓它更體貼，我們可以適時的……"],["徐委員富癸：總是要找出問題，一定要改進啊！"],["林主任委員信得：對！"],["徐委員富癸：有改進，你們也要去追蹤啊！沒有追蹤，你們做這份報告有什麼意義？就沒意義啊！"],["林主任委員信得：有啦。"],["徐委員富癸：事故還是會發生啊！螺絲還是會掉滿地啊！"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯，一般我們跟行政院列管的時候，我們會跟行政院講，行政院政務委員有時候也會定期開會，請交通部相關主管的局處來，他們知道啊。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，針對剛剛我提的那幾個點，能不能在一個月之內給我們一份書面報告，針對我講的，包含階段性的資訊公告及調閱平臺的部分，你們是不是做一個研究，好不好？一個月之內給我一份報告，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160343","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160343","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a435d6f5154aa84a33cf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b49709c5d5d9e4bc9205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:48:03 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本席邀請我們運安會林主委運安會林主委委員好主委好有兩件交通異常的狀況請教主委有瞭解嗎第一個就是高鐵啊到站沒有開門然後車子就要開走了另外一個就是台鐵啊"},{"start":33.854,"end":54.226,"text":"有一個列車 他停車的時候呢 超過月台所以 鐵路的 台鐵的駕駛啊 就把ATP改掉 然後再倒車再倒車回到月台去啊這兩件事情 主委知道嗎知道 知道那我們 運管會有介入調查嗎"},{"start":56.5,"end":85.159,"text":"這個案子還沒有到調查階段不過我們認為應該有檢討的空間什麼檢討空間就是他們的 你想要調查嗎他們的列車駕駛跟他們列車長之間他們整個公司的整個處理層第一個喔高鐵從創立以來大概第一次發生這種狀況就是你車子停了沒有開門然後呢 要把車開走這班車是北上啦還好他停在板橋"},{"start":86.633,"end":109.85,"text":"所以在板橋要下車的旅客沒有辦法下車上車當然也不行但頂多沒有辦法下車的旅客多載一站到台北下車那這台車如果是在台中沒有開門那旅客就麻煩了你在台中沒辦法下車會不會直接強迫載到台北或板橋來那主委你有坐過高鐵嗎"},{"start":114.781,"end":136.257,"text":"有有有高鐵上下車啊 它都是因為我這個也算職業做高鐵的啦我才這麼多他一定要有一定的訊號 他還用手勢還有巡車邊的人員然後當場的指揮 場鎮主任指揮還用吹哨子司機才可以開走那他沒有開車門"},{"start":140.717,"end":168.859,"text":"所以也沒有指揮他可以開走他沒有得到可以開走的訊號他就把車開走了所以我覺得這個已經不是啊有沒有開門的問題喔這個是已經是一個算如果第一個以高鐵啊過去營運績效那麼好啊安全的評價那麼高發生這種事情啊我覺得要介入調查了而且啊過去像這種台鐵高鐵啊"},{"start":171.311,"end":198.257,"text":"基本上應該要有 因為他們都是重要的運輸工具如果發生重大的缺失啦 甚至有安全性的問題都應該要由公正第三者調查你現在不調查就變成高鐵自己調查自己啦台鐵自己調查自己啦那他們查的 可不可能大事化小對不對 都來不及的人嘛 對不對所以這個也是為什麼運安會要成立的目的嘛"},{"start":199.261,"end":217.485,"text":"你們就是一個專業 公正的第三者我認為應該要介入調查否則啊 高鐵發生這麼離譜的錯誤啦如果以我搭車的經驗 這個是很離譜因為你車子停下來 也會有訊號要你開車門而且車長 列車長也會開車門他有兩個鑰匙 應該是有兩個鑰匙 那時候駕駛沒有打開"},{"start":225.646,"end":234.735,"text":"因為開車門的 列車長也會把鑰匙 他會去轉開嘛那如果轉不開 他跟駕駛怎麼聯絡 聯絡不上嗎然後 如果你沒有開車門 他絕對不可能給你訊號叫你開走應該是這樣子吧 那為什麼可以把車開走呢沒有通道訊號就把車開走"},{"start":251.445,"end":279.131,"text":"我覺得請運安委員密切注意這種事情因為通常重大事故都會由不當停車開始的我們來看台鐵台鐵在今年2025年已經有6次的不當停車1月5號他停車位置認錯所以最後一個車廂沒有進入月台最後一班車沒有進入月台2月27號"},{"start":282.262,"end":306.07,"text":"過站不停3月13號停車超出月台有四個車廂啊停車停到位置了3月13號一樣哦過站不停3月20號過站不停4月11號停車位置錯了超出月台台鐵哦今年已經有六次停車不當那我們再來看啊"},{"start":311.434,"end":323.769,"text":"台鐵在過去有個案例他在高雄戈戎沙地處就發生重大鐵道事故他也是因為過站不停然後再倒車當時就有"},{"start":327.403,"end":343.532,"text":"就有曾經發生過啦那國外喔 日本有一個慘案啦日本發生一個慘案是日本JRC日本喔他有一個班車啦那司機喔停錯位置 就不當停車他超過了月台72公尺後來呢 他應該倒車嘛然後倒車以後那個霧點了嘛所以他就加速啦希望把時間給彌補回來"},{"start":355.729,"end":385.195,"text":"結果就超速超速那個造成出軌就撞到了公寓撞到大樓死了一百多個人所以這個就是蝴蝶效應不要小看停車停錯啦這個就是管理有問題啦那你從這種小地方這種最基本的不容許犯錯的那你都會犯錯了那如果發生重大事故那當然沒有意外啦"},{"start":386.547,"end":406.204,"text":"你看啊 我整理給主委看啊台北 台北就 今年就有六件我說我希望啊 包括我剛給主委分享的這一次台鐵的違規停車啊不當停車啦也請議員會主動了解好不好你現在有報完條款了嘛"},{"start":407.956,"end":437.245,"text":"對不對今年二月啊今年二月我過去就一直要求你們要把運安會的罷網條款再改回來啦什麼樣的事故運安會可以介入但是運安會應該也有一個罷網條款就是如果你運安會認為該事件你有主動權可以介入你認為這個事件不單純必須要再進一步調查其實你是可以介入的是不是這樣"},{"start":438.747,"end":447.95,"text":"這個是可以研議的那你這個我希望你應該進入去調查吧還有現在這樣發生一個案例啊就是華航降轉這個問題啊華航有個班機要飛新加坡主委知道這個事情吧哎知道對不對他飛了一個多小時"},{"start":463.868,"end":490.859,"text":"往往這班機飛了一個小時從桃園要飛到新加坡飛了快一半結果有出現異常再飛回來飛回來降轉在高雄小港機場當時就有人質疑啦你都飛一半了如果小問題為什麼不停越南就停附近什麼我也不知道啦就整個飛機再飛回來"},{"start":493.749,"end":508.639,"text":"那這個案子運安會有調查嗎因為他轉將這個是還算一般也沒有嘛但是那轉將原因呢我們有在關注他這個案子為什麼會沒有就近轉將這個案子也沒有報給運安會運安會有收到發行轉報過來了嗎"},{"start":519.342,"end":534.877,"text":"報告委員這個案子是民航局他已經在調查了所以民航局有複製到運安會那我們也知道說這個事件的他的原因是經務的原因我們有在關注這個事件以上報告你的關注程度跟我一樣看新聞"},{"start":537.029,"end":561.569,"text":"因為 應安會如果接到有正式的立案的話 你在網站會公佈啦就所謂的初步 初步調查你這個案子連初步調查都沒有就是你現在檢查不去調查這個事情只是民安局告訴你而已嘛那這個 我認為飛機的這種異常 更嚴重啦 更嚴重啦"},{"start":562.919,"end":584.925,"text":"有一些非常安全喔就只要稍微有意外都是死傷都會很慘重的我也希望運安會啊像這種狀況啊運安會應該要多也可以主動了解吧我們主動了解好不好這個就是所謂霸王條款的作用嘛那我再提一點在三雕角喔有一台貨車台鐵的貨車出軌"},{"start":588.613,"end":616.224,"text":"或者出軌就造成民眾不便嘛 當然嘛 已經整個卡住了後來復軌 就是把這個拖軌的列車再把它弄好拖了很長的時間啊那為什麼拖那麼長時間台鐵把責任推給運安會 推給貴會啦台鐵說啊 拖了那麼久 這個列車才復軌是因為啊 在等運安會來做調查"},{"start":618.107,"end":631.754,"text":"就好像有時候我們發現車子碰撞的車禍會停在路邊當警察來看嗎那這個事情呢就怎麼會造成耽擱那麼久現在台鐵說是因為等運安會"},{"start":634.654,"end":662.08,"text":"我也沒什麼時間我講快一點結果運安會說沒有啊早上11點的出軌啊我運安會啊1點多就派人來啦我3點以前我就調查完畢了那台鐵拖到5點車輛車廂才要覆軌我了解是這樣子啦我不知道是哪一邊講錯啦但是你要知道如果如果台鐵的消息不是不正確那你們要澄清啊"},{"start":663.513,"end":687.471,"text":"你運動安衛有一個訊息澄清專區主委知道嗎知道現在是空白啦你從來沒有澄清過任何消息啦我是給主委你提起啦這個人家會關注啊那你已經知道火車出軌了這個算重大意外啦你要趕快去看啦有台鐵說是因為你拖到時間啦我不知道是不是這樣子啦"},{"start":691.894,"end":718.479,"text":"你是不是啊他們對媒體講說在等一段會這是他們比較work in level的人啦工程技術層跟你講的啦那你可以澄清一下你為什麼不澄清還是你當做那個沒關係啦沒有你的事我們有跟他澄清說這個他要我講故事我不會講的喔是喔是喔你的意思是這樣對不對我是提醒你啦你有澄清你該澄清嘛對不對"},{"start":720.478,"end":739.168,"text":"事情發生 權責就要...不能大家都擺爛啊反正你隨便 你扶手碰到你的我做好了 我有關係 你又不會說不要有這種態度好不好這都交通事故耶 這都重要的事情耶這都影響到一般人的權益耶 好不好好 謝謝主委 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level的人、工程技術人員講的，事實上不是啦！"],["林委員俊憲：你可以澄清一下，你為什麼不澄清？還是你覺得那也沒關係，又沒有你的事情？"],["林主任委員信得：我們有跟他澄清，所以這個……"],["林委員俊憲：覺得管他的，他要亂講就隨他亂講，你的意思是這樣就對了？我是提醒你，你需要澄清，你就該澄清嘛，對不對？事情發生了權責就要……不能大家都擺爛啊！反正他胡說八道他的，我做我的，我不管他怎麼去胡亂說，不要有這種態度，好不好？這都是交通事故欸！這些都是重要的事情欸！這都影響到一般人的權利，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a444441406e28350f5db8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b490feb37a46d737cc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:00:24 - 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麻煩請彭部長麻煩請彭部長"},{"start":10.686,"end":35.177,"text":"侯委員好部長好感謝周偉安排今天這是蠻符合時事議題的那本席剛也聆聽好幾位委員的一個質詢我就直接就教因為最主要現在最重要是美國的關稅產業衝擊那請教環境部有沒有針對我們出口導向產業的減碳投資策略做提前評估有沒有掌握所謂的受影響的企業清單"},{"start":35.977,"end":61.278,"text":"目前我們還是看這個關稅因為關稅32%你剛有講就32%到最後多少不知道但是我有注意到你剛講到一句話就是說有些產業會活不下去哪些產業目前如果32%的有一些傳統產業的確是非常辛苦不過我們也在做比對是跟我們碳費的關聯性到底是如何目前我們來看的話的確有一些但是不是很大"},{"start":61.798,"end":76.059,"text":"是啊 但是你剛剛有講到所以說本席現在是想問的是說你們環境部盤點的狀況針對說這樣子的一個衝擊那你剛剛提到是說油產業活不下去那甚至有講到轉型嘛福島轉型"},{"start":77.1,"end":103.316,"text":"那我想請教具體的方案現在演你了嗎其實這個最重要是要看最後關稅的談判的最後的結果所以目前我們說真的我們只能說去預你可能最後的衝擊是什麼因為最後每個產業是不一樣的那當然最早是半導體業那當然32%是很幾乎是大家都衝擊很大那部長那一天上禮拜五的專案報告或是說這禮拜二的院長的總質詢我想你有在現場嗎都在現場"},{"start":105.297,"end":122.26,"text":"記不記得上禮拜有專案報告裡面院長有講到一個880億的方案那其中裡面我們那時候就講了會不會還有需要再盤點的部分院長也在我禮拜二總之選的時候就有講了就是說880億是一開始提出來但是有可能因應現在的變化"},{"start":122.92,"end":150.785,"text":"會再請各部會再匯集再提出那我也問就是說880億會是最終嗎院長好像鬆口了講不一定因為我們要經過特別條例所以有可能未來下個禮拜報出來的特別條例的相關草案會比880億的規模更多對不對那現在我們環境部有沒有針對這個部分也譬如說我們現在盤點有可能的衝擊假設我們以最壞的打算真的到時候還是32%降不下來"},{"start":151.505,"end":170.236,"text":"那我們受到衝擊以及我們後續轉型的一個方案的部分有沒有跟行政院爭取額度爭取中我們現在爭取中預計會要爭取多少額度現在還蠻難盤算的出來下個禮拜院長就醫院長的講法下禮拜就要把特別條例送到立法院"},{"start":172.697,"end":187.566,"text":"因為八百八其實他很早就定案了七百億經濟部嘛一百八十億農業部嘛所以沒有環境部啊那我們是希望未來第二波或是第三波的時候我可以把我們相關的產業可以納進來但是現在以特別條例來講"},{"start":191.603,"end":204.218,"text":"應該要超前部署就是說我們現在還是要做好打算特別條例編過之後請注意喔 部長要有一個正確的觀念特別條例編過之後我們是訂一個上限譬如說那個時候易厚振興3800億"},{"start":206.22,"end":220.946,"text":"但不是說3800億你就是一定要用完如果說真的我們的景氣恢復之後3800億裡面有一些也是可以不要用但是我們訂個上限3800億那一樣的道理如果說這一次因應美國關稅的調整880億假設880億或者說假設到時候院長提出來1500億"},{"start":226.388,"end":255.251,"text":"那可能各部會先把需求丟入讓行政院統籌送來到立法院因為正式要三讀通過特別條例也需要差不多兩個月的時間還會經過財政委員會以及各委員大家來做一個審查那但是你如果說現在沒有先掛號沒有先爭取你就沒有你懂我意思嗎對所以這才是為什麼本席關注的是你有講到有產業活不下去你有講到要協助轉型那但是我們的工具跟辦法是什麼"},{"start":256.504,"end":285.303,"text":"因為第一個是如果說產業真的活不下去其實經濟部產發署那邊他們是主要負責的那我們這邊是關注於轉型轉型的過程當中他們是不是需要各種綠色轉型的一個協助那這個部分我們也會跟他們一起合作所以掛號的部分也跟委員報告我們的確去掛號但是其實到最後的這個金額多少我們也在等行政院到最後是不是通知我們有沒有那個額度把它放進去當然我們是希望是能夠在這個領域部分能夠多幫一點企業的忙"},{"start":286.264,"end":305.013,"text":"因為環境部的預算相對少所以我才會提到是說如果有一定要大力的爭取才有機會協助我當然知道說企業還是經濟部為主但是我們怎麼樣利用這所謂的綠色的部分來去協助企業轉型這也是我們的契機點"},{"start":306.834,"end":329.217,"text":"來部長那另外跟你請教現在台版的碳邊境調整機制也就是這一個你在報告裡面有特別提到說目前都還在做跨部會的協商4月有協商過一次那現在到底有沒有施行的時程目前我們在等那個歐盟的細則因為目前歐盟的細則還是會讓歐盟先行"},{"start":329.537,"end":354.953,"text":"歐盟的因為歐盟是確定這個明年開始要收然後後年2027年2月開始可以去買那個憑證等於是說目前我們是緊盯的歐盟的角度那歐盟也很關心我們會怎麼訂那我們也跟他們報告跟他們討論說我們會跟你們一起走就是說我會參照你們的因為這個會減少各種的這個因為如果我們要訂一個台版的CBAN也是要通報這個WTO等等的所以這個其實是一個很複雜"},{"start":355.613,"end":381.207,"text":"因為現在包括說主要出口產業鋼鐵水泥這也是你報告裡面有提到的嘛這一些的業者也好相關的從業人員也都一直在關心我們到底說我們什麼時候提出來或說是不是有可能有施行的時程以來回推做預作準備而不要變大家措手不及所以從您剛剛的這個回答我是不是可以以來推敲就是說至少是讓歐盟先行我們看歐盟的一個狀況我們再來做後續的一個處理"},{"start":381.827,"end":407.945,"text":"歐盟是明年1月1號開始施行那他的辦法應該在暑假的時候7、8月的時候細節會有一些公佈那整個大的框架他已經很清楚了所以我們大概會照著他的框架走所以如果說我們明年例如說他今年已經開始試申報了說不定我們明年開始就可以開始試申報例如說水泥從這個越南進口的水泥他就要必須申報他的碳排系數那我們還會有別的工具例如說"},{"start":408.485,"end":434.606,"text":"我們的公共工程建設要求說一定要有碳足跡那這個呢就是會保障我們國內做轉型的水泥業或鋼鐵業這是一個有追蹤的機制對對對我們現在是準備要這樣做好所以說還是要有預告期讓相關業者都有規則可循對一定的最後一個部分抱歉因為您也提到一個綠能人才培育量能3500名一年現在施行幾年了"},{"start":435.827,"end":450.443,"text":"現在今年是轉換因為過去像去年環境部大概是一年大概1000人而已培訓那現在我們改變方式跟28個大學合作所以基本上是3500是我們基本的拿到證照的目前有多少位"},{"start":450.703,"end":475.394,"text":"目前才剛開始所以現在例如說我們四月開班第一班就16分鐘就秒殺所以目前很快的大概會同步的大概28個大學都會陸續的開課所以我們預計年底今年應該會有3500人對但過去完成培訓的呢過去大概總共加起來沒有本席來部長來你可以回答嗎過去完成培訓的人員有多少位"},{"start":475.956,"end":499.382,"text":"部長來之前是環境部自己辦很努力的辦我們去年只有辦一千人部長來了以後改變方式就是結合二十八個大學一起來辦就是把這個量能提升所以我們以後每一年可以提升到三千五百人次不是 你剛講這個話跟部長剛講有什麼我現在後來是說完成培訓你不能把部長講的話再重新再講一遍"},{"start":500.282,"end":518.844,"text":"去年就一千人一千人好那部長本席提出來方向我已肯定但本席提出來的用意其實是說培訓人數一回事產業有沒有用是一回事這一千人有多少人是投入到產業做相關的這個減碳或者是綠能工作"},{"start":519.625,"end":547.479,"text":"有沒有追蹤我們部長來了以後我們今年跟104銀行合作一起做綠領人才的這個就業趨勢報告所以這個今年才開始開始進行所以我們那今年的第一班剛才講3500人這個今年第一班是4月26會開第一班所以這個以後我們會結合104這個調查報告一起把這些弄進去我們才會知道多少會受完訊以後會回到產業"},{"start":548.524,"end":573.197,"text":"委員就是說我知道你的問題過去其實上完課我們不知道他的流向啦未來我會管理啦就如同說我們畢業生我們當然希望是說他上了我們的培育課程我們也真的編列預算也真的培養人才了人才要盡其流嘛人才要盡所用嘛所以說是不是真的能夠到這樣的一個相關行業而不是他拿到了證照結果他不是做這樣的工作"},{"start":574.192,"end":597.054,"text":"培訓可能就浪費了我們也沒有真正媒合那尤其是我們目前有到底有多少的需求是需要這樣人才的現在在伊尼斯上面有兩萬兩千個工作機會可能年輕人所以如果說照你這樣子的推估其實3500位培訓完的應該都可以投入職場而且都是做相關工作嘛所以這也是本席講的有要做後續的追蹤"},{"start":598.148,"end":607.804,"text":"讓我們投入的每一筆培訓的預算以及人才都能夠真真正正的進入到相關的行業是可以做後續追蹤可以沒問題好謝謝好謝謝洪孟凱委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":810,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時）主席，謝謝。麻煩請彭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。感謝召委安排今天的議程，真的是滿符合時事議題的，本席剛剛也聆聽好幾位委員的質詢，我就直接就教，因為現在最重要的是美國關稅產業衝擊，請教環境部有沒有針對我們出口導向產業的減碳投資策略做提前評估，有沒有掌握所謂受影響的企業清單？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們還是看關稅，因為關稅32%……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛有講，30%、20%到最後會多少不知道，但是我有注意到您剛剛講到一句話，你說有些產業會活不下去，是哪些產業？"],["彭部長啓明：目前如果是32%，有一些傳統產業的確是非常辛苦，不過我們也在做比對，跟我們碳費的關聯性到底是如何？目前我們來看的話，的確有一些，但不是很大。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，但是你剛剛有講到。所以本席現在是想問的是你們環境部盤點的狀況，針對這樣子的衝擊，你剛剛提到有產業活不下去，甚至有講到輔導轉型，那麼我想請教具體的方案現在研擬了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實這個最重要是要看關稅談判最後的結果，所以目前說真的，我們只能去預擬可能最後的衝擊是什麼，因為最後每個產業是不一樣的，當然最早是半導體業，而32%幾乎是大家都衝擊很大。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，上禮拜五的專案報告或是這禮拜二院長的總質詢，我想你有在現場嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：都在。"],["洪委員孟楷：都在現場？那麼記不記得上禮拜五的專案報告裡面，院長有講到一個880億的方案，我們那時候就講了，會不會還有需要再盤點的部分，院長也在我禮拜二總質詢的時候就講了，他說880億是一開始提出來，但是有可能因應現在的變化，會再請各部會再彙集、再提出，我也問880億會是最終嗎？院長好像鬆口了，他講不一定，因為我們要經過特別條例，所以有可能未來下個禮拜報出來的特別條例相關草案會比880億的規模更多，對不對？現在環境部有沒有針對這個部分，譬如我們現在盤點有可能的衝擊，假設我們以最壞的打算，真的到最後還是32%，降不下來，我們受到的衝擊以及我們後續轉型的方案這部分，有沒有跟行政院爭取額度？"],["彭部長啓明：我們在爭取中。"],["洪委員孟楷：預計要爭取多少額度？"],["彭部長啓明：現在還很難盤算得下來。"],["洪委員孟楷：依院長的講法，下禮拜就要把特別條例送到立法院了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，因為880億其實很早就定案了，特別是針對那32%。"],["洪委員孟楷：700億是經濟部，180億是農業部，所以沒有環境部。"],["彭部長啓明：對，那時候因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在……"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望未來第二波或是第三波的時候，我可以把我們相關的產業納進來，我們正在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是現在以特別條例來講，應該要超前部署，我們現在還是要做最壞打算，特別條例編過之後，請注意，部長要有一個正確的觀念，特別條例編過之後，我們是訂一個上限，譬如那個時候疫後振興3,800億，但不是3,800億就是一定要用完，如果說真的，我們的景氣恢復之後，3,800億裡面有一些也是可以不要用，但是我們訂一個上限3,800億。一樣的道理，如果這一次因應美國關稅調整880億，假設880億或者假設到時候院長提出來1,500億，可能各部會先把需求丟入，讓行政院統籌送來到立法院，因為正式要三讀通過特別條例，也需要差不多兩個月的時間，還會經過財政委員會以及各委員大家來做審查，但是你如果現在沒有先掛號、先爭取，你就沒有，你懂我意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這才是為什麼本席關注到你有講到有產業活不下去，你有講到要協助轉型，但是我們的工具跟辦法是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，如果產業真的活不下去，其實經濟部產發署那邊，他們是主要負責的，我們這邊是關注於轉型的過程當中，他們是不是需要各種綠色轉型的協助，這個部分，我們也會跟他們一起合作，所以掛號的部分也跟委員報告，我們的確有去掛號，但是其實到最後的金額是多少，我們也在等行政院到最後通知我們有沒有那個額度把它放進去，當然我們是希望是能夠在這個領域的部分多幫一點企業的忙，我們在爭取當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為環境部的預算相對少。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我才會提到如果有，一定要大力的爭取，才有機會協助，我當然知道企業還是經濟部為主，但是我們怎麼樣利用所謂綠色轉型的部分，協助企業轉型，這也是我們的契機點。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，另外跟你請教，現在臺版的碳邊境調整機制，也就是你在報告裡面有特別提到，目前都還在做跨部會的協商，4月有協商過一次。"],["彭部長啓明：對，4月協商……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在到底有沒有施行的時程？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們在等歐盟的細則，因為目前歐盟的細則大概……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是會讓歐盟先行？"],["彭部長啓明：因為歐盟是確定明年開始要收，然後後年2027年2月開始可以去買那個憑證，等於是目前我們是緊盯著歐盟的角度，歐盟也很關心我們會怎麼定，我們也跟他們討論，說我們會跟他們一起走，我們會參照他們，因為這會減少各種……因為如果我們要訂一個臺版的CBAM，也是要通報WTO等等的，所以這個其實是一個很複雜的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為現在主要出口產業包括鋼鐵、水泥，這也是你報告裡面有提到的，這一些的業者也好，相關的從業人員也都一直在關心到底我們什麼時候會提出來，或者是不是有可能有施行的時程以回推預做準備，而不要變成大家措手不及。所以從您剛剛的這個回答，我是不是可以來推敲，至少是讓歐盟先行，看歐盟的狀況，我們再來做後續的處理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，歐盟是明年1月1日開始施行，它的辦法應該在暑假7、8月的時候，細節會有一些公布，至於整個大的框架，它已經很清楚了，我們大概會照著它的框架走，例如它今年已經開始試申報了，說不定我們明年就可以開始試申報，例如從越南進口的水泥，它就必須要申報它的碳排係數。我們還會有別的工具，例如我們的公共工程建設要求一定要有碳足跡，這個就是會保障我們國內做轉型的水泥業或鋼鐵業，這是一個很好的保護方法。"],["洪委員孟楷：有追蹤的機制？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們現在準備要這樣做。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以還是要有預告期，讓相關業者都有規則可循。"],["彭部長啓明：對，一定的。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後一個部分，抱歉！因為您也提到一個綠能人才培育量能，一年3,500名，現在施行幾年了？"],["彭部長啓明：今年是轉換，因為像去年環境部一年大概1,000人而已，自己培訓。現在我們改變方式，我們跟28個大學合作，所以3,500名是我們基本的。"],["洪委員孟楷：拿到證照的，目前有多少位？"],["彭部長啓明：目前才剛開始，例如我們4月開班，第一班16分鐘就秒殺，所以很快的大概同步的28個大學都會陸續開課，所以我們預計年底，今年應該會有3,500人。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但過去完成培訓的呢？"],["彭部長啓明：過去大概總共加起來……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有。來，部長……","你可以回答嗎？過去完成培訓的人員有多少位？"],["周主任國鼎：部長來之前是環境部自己辦，很努力的辦，我們去年只有辦1,000人，部長來了以後改變方式，就是結合28個大學一起辦，把這個量能提升，所以我們以後每一年可以提升到3,500人次。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，你剛剛講這個話跟部長剛剛講的有什麼不同？我現在問的是完成培訓，你不能把部長講的話再重新講一遍。"],["周主任國鼎：去年1,000人。"],["彭部長啓明：就1,000人。"],["洪委員孟楷：1,000人？好。部長，方向我予以肯定，但本席提出來的用意，其實是要說培訓人數一回事，產業有沒有用是一回事，這1,000人有多少人是投入到產業做相關的減碳或者是綠能工作，有沒有追蹤？"],["周主任國鼎：部長來了以後，我們今年跟104銀行合作，一起做綠領人才的就業趨勢報告，所以今年才開始進行，今年的第一班，剛才講的3,500人，4月26日會開今年的第一班，以後會結合104的調查報告一起把這些弄進去，然後我們才會知道多少人受完訓以後會回到產業。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我知道你的問題，就是過去其實上完課，我們不知道他的流向，未來我們會管理。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，就如同我們畢業生，我們當然希望他上了我們的培育課程，我們也真的編列預算、也真的培養人才了，人才要盡其留、人才要盡所用嘛！所以說是不是真的能夠到相關行業，而不是拿到證照，結果卻不是做這樣的工作，那培訓可能就浪費了，我們也沒有真正媒合，尤其我們目前到底有多少這樣的人才需求？"],["彭部長啓明：現在在104上有22,000個工作機會，可能年輕人……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，如果照你這樣的推估，3,500位培訓完後，應該都可以投入職場，而且都是做相關工作？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這也是本席講的，應該要做後續追蹤，讓我們投入培訓的每一筆預算及人才，都能夠真真正正進入到相關行業，可以做後續追蹤嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以、可以，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}},{"id":"160341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a425ab4a240ab783bbdb8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b492895f56770e3b51c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:50:17 - 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有請部長 彭部長"},{"start":14.139,"end":42.065,"text":"是部長好我其實看了今天部長這邊所提的報告我尤其關心的是有關於就是在已經被公告的要嚴格控管的這空氣品質的場所的這個議題那麼我們知道其實依照室內空氣品質管制法第6條的規定現在是主管機關他可以綜合各種考量的因素來公告要受到更嚴格的空氣品質"},{"start":43.206,"end":59.147,"text":"標準的這樣的公私立場所可是呢在我們研究發現裡面呢有看到就是似乎高中以下的學校包含幼兒園啊等等的這個是排除在外就是還沒有在你們公告的這個場所裡面不知道原因是什麼"},{"start":60.284,"end":83.12,"text":"當時其實在推的時候因為這個是很久以前大概106的時候其實有去做溝通可是他們第一個是沒有這個預算因為做一次這個檢查大概要兩三萬塊而且他有一個專責的人員所以大部分的這種中小學他覺得他們的預算還有各方面人力不夠的確是有抗拒所以我們後來改用這個自主標章等於是稍微輕一點來鼓勵他來進行並不是強勢型的"},{"start":85.121,"end":110.522,"text":"我想這邊想提醒部長就是說因為其實為什麼要做公告一些公私立場所要受到更為嚴格的空氣品質的管制那麼無疑就是考量到就是國民的健康安全還有特定的族群的健康的問題那麼但是像是幼兒園高中以下的學校等等這些孩子們其實更需要乾淨的空氣"},{"start":111.663,"end":131.09,"text":"品質 室內空氣品質必須要更加良好那但是現在卻因為就是可能我們在訂定相關的授權辦法的時候沒有考慮到場所的差異性那麼卻又把他們排除在外然後只鼓勵他們要去推動這種這個什麼自主標章本心認為其實這樣是不夠的是不是應該環境部要去研擬這個"},{"start":136.132,"end":163.568,"text":"各别特别的办法能够让高中以下的学校幼儿园或是财力比较不足的这样的一个场所他们也能够有一个更好的一个可以自主空气品质管理的这样的一个机制那么甚至环境部也可以去编列相关的费用去补助这些学校还有幼儿园然后让他们也能够这个有"},{"start":164.606,"end":190.169,"text":"他們裡面的這個空氣品質可以達到符合我們現在的要求否則的話我認為說最應該要照顧的就是小孩們就是年輕的孩子們他們的健康就反而是他們是被排除在外的但是這部分的話我希望環境部是不是可以去研擬相關的這個辦法可以因場所的差異而去制定特別的標準"},{"start":190.489,"end":213.311,"text":"好這個我們會努力啦因為最主要還是現在的有一些這個連續自動的監測就是他結合IOT例如說送風等等這個其實我們看到市場已經很成熟了所以我們會因為這個如果真的要檢測要花兩三萬塊然後他還要花錢去做改善其實對於很多的業者都是很大的負擔他們會很抗拒那現在有一些IOT的工具"},{"start":214.572,"end":235.316,"text":"政府部門可以提供相對應的補貼補助那麼來把相關的這個系統建立起來我覺得是有必要的那麼接下來呢我還要再請教的另外一個問題就是說其實現在呢在部長就是您也曾經提到為了要管制移動的污染源所以鼓勵地方的環保局要劃設國中校園旁邊有個空品的維護區那麼現在我們看到已經有六個縣市他們在"},{"start":242.597,"end":266.405,"text":"一些中小學旁邊有規劃空氣品質維護區不過就是我們也發現就是這些空氣品質維護區就除了花蓮的中正國小他們已經有了一個清楚什麼空氣污染物質的改善其他的學校都還沒有一個具體改善的數據或是就不知道環境部到底對於這些學校的周邊的空氣品質有必要去進行追蹤"},{"start":267.281,"end":291.956,"text":"OK 報告委員現在大概有91個啦91個空民維護區不過學校真的只有只有中小學只有10個那現在呢大概有30個正在規劃當中就是說其實第一個我們優先是在工廠附近的等等的那個要先做所以這個部分是一激烈這個我要跟地方環保局一起來合作也要人力所以目前我們的確是跟有些這個所謂的風險區域的縣市環保局在討論當中"},{"start":293.797,"end":308.986,"text":"我認為說這個要積極的去做有些它已經設置都一兩年了可是我們沒有看到有任何改善的數據不要說空氣品質維護區畫在那裡只是好看的只想要符合法規上的要求但是沒有實際的作為的話就沒有意義這部分的話也請"},{"start":309.646,"end":329.027,"text":"部長要去盯這件事情接下來還有一個部分就是說其實我們知道有一些地方就像剛剛譬如說有些小學它就在工業區那麼現在就空氣品質監測系統所測定的項目裡面基本上好像是不涵蓋臭味對不對"},{"start":329.926,"end":332.768,"text":"錯位其實要每個人認知的錯不一樣所以其實錯位是蠻特別那個要有專業的人來聞臭屍來都判別的可是在你們的空氣品質的監測在測定項目裡面的話就是有關於錯位的部分"},{"start":345.775,"end":360.72,"text":"它是屬於得測定項目難道國外或是我們現在沒有個技術可以比較客觀的去測量有關於臭味的部分嗎因為確實我們也知道有些小學他們就在工業區旁邊尤其又在瀝青廠旁邊那聞的味道是非常不舒服的"},{"start":361.6,"end":383.486,"text":"這個部分的話我難道沒有辦法可以去克服這樣的一個檢測的難度嗎因為臭味是要人工有專門的蚊臭師他是很專業的在做我們的確環境部有一些配合的但是例如說我舉例臭豆腐有人說香有人說臭所以每個認定不一樣可是你看我現在的那個有關於那個瀝青製成的涵蓋的物質"},{"start":385.66,"end":401.062,"text":"你看這些包含什麼本啊這些其實這些都是對於人體的身體健康非常不好的一些物質對那這個部分是沒有辦法去測嗎還是現在已經有在測了嗎多環分香進化"},{"start":402.557,"end":422.498,"text":"核物還有什麼碗類乳碗類多環分香碳氫化合物不好意思跟你們報告因為那個會有味道的東西它成分都不一樣好像有淡的它通常有味道有硫的它通常有味道所以你就沒有無差別的方式要去測這個臭味是什麼"},{"start":422.958,"end":446.949,"text":"很難 幾乎是不可能除非怎樣回到實驗室用那個支撲儀來跑那就會比較清楚說是哪一些成分那不然的話人的感官其實我們的鼻子的最低真正極限很零很低 很低的濃度各種不同的話混在一起沒有一個簡單的儀器可以來做這個我們目前都在嘗試但沒有還沒有成分是啦 我認為說這個應該在科學上面還是有"},{"start":447.769,"end":454.316,"text":"辦法去克服的這個技術上面或是當然像部長講的每個人的主觀的感覺是不一樣但是還是有一個一般共同的標準嗎如果說全部的士紳都已經聞到哇濃濃的這種瀝青的這個化學物質的味道不能講說這個覺得說啊這個是他們的這個嗅覺太靈敏了所以把忽略委員這個只要有個案來申報通知我們都會有專業團隊去協助檢測"},{"start":472.073,"end":477.235,"text":"因為這個部分譬如說這個小學就在立青廠的旁邊它長期可能就在這樣的環境下所以可能更應該需要長時間的去常態性的去檢測而不適合就是說都是等待人民主動的去檢舉然後去舉報然後才來做這樣子的事情我覺得這樣的話其實環境部就還有地方環保局就不太負責任了之後我還要講一個議題就是其實在過去韓國瑜"},{"start":501.267,"end":514.533,"text":"院長擔任高雄市市長的時候曾經有提出過一個議題就是可以在校園裡面那麼設置冷氣機與空氣清淨機所謂的雙機計劃那劉建國委員之前也曾經有倡議說在雲林的麥寮國小可以安裝新風系統其實我認為這個部分其實確實是有助於可以改善室內空氣品質"},{"start":526.158,"end":546.701,"text":"那不知道環境部對於這個部分有沒有什麼看法未來有沒有可能提撥相關的補助費用補助這些至少在工業區旁的小學們可以優先的去申請改善空氣品質的設備報委員那個新風系統是劉委員為了左水溪陽城特別去爭取的這個是教育部在做補助"},{"start":547.382,"end":568.053,"text":"那這個剛剛有報告說他未來是不是要再檢討那另外一個呢是韓市長的這個那時候韓院長的時候推動的是冷氣機現在中小學都有了但是空氣清淨機呢還是要看需求啦不限的每個學校都是在供氣污染區但是如果有的話就跟這個興奉系統有一點類似是那我們會再來研議可以就是綜合性的去"},{"start":569.393,"end":590.72,"text":"盤點到底哪些學校它是有急迫性的必要就像我們剛剛講的這工業區旁的小學其實看起來也不是太多頂多大概幾時間吧可以優先從那些學校來進行改善總之就是說現在因為我們少子化所以每個孩子都是我們的寶貝我們都希望他們的身體健康能夠得到最好的照顧那政府該花的錢還是要花"},{"start":592.702,"end":597.676,"text":"該補助的還是要補助 這邊希望部長這邊可以特別關注這件事情"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":769,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時50分）請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長好。看了今天部長所提的報告，我尤其關心的是，關於已經被公告要嚴格控管空氣品質的場所的議題。依照室內空氣品質管制法第六條規定，現在主管機關可以綜合各種考量的因素，公告要受到更嚴格的空氣品質標準管制的公私立場所。可是我們的研究發現，似乎高中以下學校，包含幼兒園等等，是排除在外的，就是還沒有在你們公告的場所裡面，不知道原因是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：當時在推的時候，因為這個是很久以前，大概106年其實有去溝通，可是第一個，他們沒有這個預算，因為做一次這個檢查大概要二、三萬塊，而且還要有一個專責人員，大部分的中小學覺得他們的預算還有各方面人力不夠，的確是有抗拒。所以我們後來改用自主標章，等於是稍微輕一點地鼓勵他來進行，並不是強制性的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想提醒部長，為什麼公告一些公私立場所要受到更為嚴格的空氣品質管制，無疑就是考量到國民健康安全還有特定族群的健康問題。像幼兒園、高中以下學校等等，這些孩子們其實更需要乾淨的空氣品質，室內空氣品質必須更加良好，但是現在卻因為可能我們在訂定相關授權辦法的時候，沒有考慮到場所的差異性，卻又把他們排除在外，只鼓勵他們要去推動什麼自主標章。本席認為其實這樣是不夠的，是不是環境部應該要研擬特別的辦法，能夠讓高中以下學校、幼兒園或是財力比較不足的場所，他們也能夠有更好、可以自主的針對空氣品質管理的一個機制？甚至環境部也可以編列相關費用補助這些學校還有幼兒園，讓他們裡面的空氣品質可以達到符合我們現在的要求。否則的話，我認為，最應該要照顧的是小孩們，就是年輕孩子們的健康，結果反而他們是被排除在外的。我希望環境部是不是可以研擬相關的辦法，因場所的差異制定特別的標準？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會努力，因為最主要還是現在有一些連續自動的監測，它結合IoT，例如送風等等，我們看到市場已經很成熟了。如果真的要檢測要花二、三萬塊，然後他還要花錢做改善，其實對於很多業者都是很大的負擔，他們會很抗拒，現在有一些IoT的工具……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，但這部分如果政府部門可以提供相對應的補貼、補助，把相關的系統建立起來，我覺得是有必要的。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我還要再請教另外一個問題，部長您也曾經提到，為了要管制移動污染源，所以鼓勵地方環保局要劃設國中校園旁邊有個空品維護區。現在我們看到已經有6個縣市，在一些中小學旁邊有規劃空氣品質維護區。不過我們也發現，這些空氣品質維護區，除了花蓮中正國小，他們已經有了一個清楚的空氣污染物質的改善，其他的學校都還沒有一個具體改善的數據或是……不知道環境部到底對於這些學校周邊的空氣品質有沒有進行追蹤？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在大概有91個空品維護區，不過學校在中小學的部分真的只有10個，現在大概有30個正在規劃當中。其實我們第一個優先的是在工廠附近等等的，那個要先做。"],["翁委員曉玲：對。"],["彭部長啓明：這個我要跟地方環保局一起合作，也要人力，所以目前我們的確是跟一些所謂風險區的縣市環保局在討論當中，希望擴大。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我認為這個要積極去做。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：有些都已經設置一、兩年了，可是我們沒有看到有任何改善的數據，不要說空氣品質維護區劃在那裡只是好看的、只是好像符合法規上的要求，但是沒有實際的作為的話就沒有意義，也請部長要去盯這件事情。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來還有一個部分，我們知道有些地方，譬如有些小學就在工業區，現在就空氣品質監測系統所測定的項目裡面，基本上好像是不涵蓋臭味，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：臭味，每個人認知的臭不一樣，所以其實臭味是滿特別的，那個要由專業的人、聞臭師來做判別。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是在你們空氣品質監測站的測定項目裡面，有關於臭味的部分，它是屬於得測定項目，難道國外或是我們現在沒有一個技術，可以比較客觀地去測量有關於臭味的部分嗎？確實我們也知道有些小學就在工業區旁邊，尤其又在瀝青廠旁邊，聞到的味道令人非常不舒服，就這個部分難道沒有辦法去克服檢測上的難度嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為臭味是要人工、有專門的聞臭師是很專業在做，的確環境部有一些配合的。但我舉例，臭豆腐有人說香、有人說臭，每個人的認定不一樣，所以……"],["翁委員曉玲：可是有關於瀝青製程涵蓋的物質，包含苯這些，其實都是對於人體健康非常不好的一些物質，這個部分沒有辦法去測嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個可以……"],["翁委員曉玲：還是現在已經有在測了嗎？多環芳香烴化合物、烷類、鹵烷類、多環芳香烴碳氫化合物。"],["張司長順欽：不好意思，跟委員報告，因為那個會有味道的東西，它成分都不一樣，好像有氮的它通常會有味道、有硫的它通常會有味道，所以沒有無差別的方式去測這個臭味是什麼，很難，幾乎是不可能，除非採樣回到實驗室用質譜儀跑，就會比較清楚是哪一些成分。不然的話人的感官，其實我們鼻子的最低偵測極限很靈，很低的濃度，各種不同的化合物混在一起，但沒有一個簡單的儀器可以做，這個我們目前都在嘗試，但還沒有成功。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我認為這應該在科學上面還是有辦法克服的，技術上面或是當然像部長講的每個人主觀的感覺不一樣，但還是有一般共同的標準，如果全部師生都已經聞到濃濃的瀝青化學物質的味道，不能覺得說這是他們的嗅覺太靈敏了，所以你把它忽略不計。"],["彭部長啓明：這個只要有個案來申報通知，我們都會有專業團隊協助檢測，來做這個事情。"],["翁委員曉玲：譬如這個小學就在瀝青廠旁邊，長期就在這樣的環境下，所以可能更需要長時間、常態性的檢測，而不適合都是等待人民主動檢舉、舉報後才做這樣子的事情。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得這樣的話，其實環境部還有地方環保局就不太負責任了。"],["彭部長啓明：是，像那個……我們會進行。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，最後我還要講一個議題，過去韓國瑜院長擔任高雄市市長的時候，曾經提出過一個議題，就是可以在校園裡面設置冷氣機與空氣清淨機，所謂的「雙機計畫」。劉建國委員之前也曾經倡議，在雲林麥寮國小可以安裝「新風系統」。我認為這確實有助於改善室內空氣品質，不知道環境部對於這個部分有沒有什麼看法、未來有沒有可能提撥相關的補助費用，至少在工業區旁的小學們可以優先申請改善空氣品質的設備？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，新風系統是劉委員為了濁水溪揚塵特別爭取的，這個是教育部在補助，剛剛有報告未來是不是要再檢討。","另外一個是那時候的韓市長，就是韓院長推動的，冷氣機現在中小學都有了，但是空氣清淨機還是要看需求，不見得每個學校都是在空氣污染區，如果有的話就跟新風系統有一點類似，那我們會再研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以這部分是不是可以綜合性地盤點，到底哪些學校有急迫性必要？就像我們剛剛講的，工業區旁的小學其實看起來也不是太多，頂多大概幾十間，可以優先從那些學校來進行改善。總之，現在因為我們少子化，所以每個孩子都是我們的寶貝，我們都希望他們的身體健康，能夠得到最好的照顧，政府該花的錢還是要花、該補助的還是要補助。"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我們來研究一下。"],["翁委員曉玲：希望部長這邊可以特別關注這件事情。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，以上。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的發言。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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辛苦了 早上在研究室裡面看各位委員對我們海委會的指教那我在這裡特別也肯定我們主委在這個工作上的付出尤其是最近一些灰色地帶的滋擾我們覺得後來海巡署的處置應該是有效的克制這些包括盜挖沙跟割海欄的行為"},{"start":34.4,"end":43.526,"text":"那後續可不可以請諸位簡短的說明一下後續在這兩個方面的強化作為是不是有哪些未經之處需要立法院在各種的計畫經費或是設備上的加強"},{"start":48.533,"end":64.442,"text":"有關於抽砂的部分 抽砂船已經現在完全不來了我們修了屠宰法以後 罰則加重非常的多這個真的嚇阻的作用就出來了過去最多的時候一年是4000多艘次"},{"start":65.322,"end":89.627,"text":"所以這個部分我們有做到這個地步那最後一個判決也在前幾天二審的判決就是傳我們要給他沒入這個案大概卡了三年那另外有關海嵐的部分我們在處理的程序上有一個能夠更有效率處理的跨部會的國安程序那這個部分我們已經建立起來了"},{"start":90.547,"end":112.414,"text":"剩下來要做的包括修法的部分修法的部分剛剛報告的是我們在跨部會應該要修法讓他更精進的那個部分我們管理這個全野輪的方法當中他AIS的問題我們要修傳播法的部分等等"},{"start":113.414,"end":132.816,"text":"那22號會開第二次會議那另外我們在畫社這個海嵐範圍要去畫社要去公告那個靜茅區靜博區的這個部分是下禮拜會持續再來開會所以這些部分都有在精進"},{"start":133.803,"end":161.346,"text":"那就這部分您說到修法那在修法之前相關的資訊的取得是不是都通暢因為我們都知道之前的權宜輪或者說幽靈船他們可能需要港務單位提供必要的這些船舶資料那這些部分過去我也曾經質詢過交通部跟航港局那請問我們在跨部會的部分海委會要取得這些資訊因為在修法完成之前我們需要透過更多的資訊來掌握可能的潛在對象有沒有什麼困難"},{"start":162.079,"end":178.976,"text":"我們分兩個部分一個部分是說航港單位會給我們相關的資料那我們就建立黑名單那這個黑名單我們會分級有高度威脅的或低度威脅的所以這些資料的取得都沒有問題都沒有問題那另外是其實我們每天的監偵偵系統我們每天的情監偵系統我們每天都在海上看"},{"start":184.822,"end":192.03,"text":"所以那個海嵐的區域我們已經特別加以密駐的情況之下有一些狀況發生我們也會主動的發現我們也會去發現到說你滯留的船舶它不在黑名單內我們還是會關注會監控那剛剛講到針尖的能力"},{"start":202.942,"end":216.881,"text":"過去我在多次之前海委會的主委因為過去大部分都有海軍背景來擔任我也曾經形容海委會是我們的第二海軍又一是海巡署那這個過程當中它畢竟做一個和平的一個警戒力量過去我們有船有艦"},{"start":218.303,"end":238.697,"text":"那我也曾經詢問過在有人載具的部分航空器的部分有沒有計畫要去取得必要的航空器有人航空器來作為我們提升我們艱增能力在滯空時間跟監控上像日本的海上警視廳他們都有一個這樣的一個海巡機台灣我們海委會或海巡組有沒有打算要建置這樣的機動能力"},{"start":239.943,"end":259.868,"text":"我們目前當然是以無人機隊為主那到底要不要增加定義機有人機的部分沒有排除研議我們也都還有在研議之中但是是以什麼樣的機制負擔什麼樣的功能目前並還沒有定案"},{"start":264.949,"end":292.213,"text":"我了解這個有人機是一個龐大的工程那在這之前你們無人機的機隊現在有懸疑機我看要補充懸疑機那麼定義機也有無人載具目前在這個長滯空時機跟短滯空時機的交互運用上你們無人機的機隊的建置計畫有沒有一個短中長程的目標未來會有中長期計畫我們正在爭取然後正在審議的過程之中目前的機隊規模大概有多少是不是署長可以幫我們做說明一下我們可能"},{"start":294.049,"end":295.378,"text":"形容說你可以講的部分"},{"start":296.699,"end":322.259,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在要準備規劃的目前現有的機型除了我們原來建置的旋翼型的以外我們現在也有各服務組都有建置自己多軸的無人機部分這個數量容會後再跟委員報告主委我最後一點時間我希望跟海巡署有一個建議是現在我們無人機的運用無人載具在台灣算是還蠻關鍵上蠻先進的"},{"start":324.241,"end":346.955,"text":"那麼其實就算海巡署使用的這些無人機也不定義現用艦載機其實無人機它的一個交替使用呢你可以用陸基為基地如果你們海巡署能夠建立陸基為基地的長程的定義基去交錯配合我們這個艦載機來交替做成一個監控網的話這個部分是可以去思考的這個部分不用回答我是提供給您建言"},{"start":347.395,"end":366.781,"text":"那另外一個呢就是屬於衛星的偵測部分合成孔徑雷達現在的運用很成熟那麼很多的科研機構都有在使用我相信不管在海洋保育上或者是海面的監控上那麼這樣的一個合成孔徑雷達在現在這麼多的衛星低軌道的衛星的運用上呢它已經是有一個成熟的商用市場"},{"start":367.501,"end":388.473,"text":"那未來不排除海委會能夠有自己使用的這樣的一個衛星的一個時段或者一個專屬那目前呢也是可以考慮去做商用商去採購一些這種合成孔線雷達對於我們所必要的時間跟地段的監控那這兩個部分呢提供給我們主委未來在海巡業務上的做一個參考好的我們再來跟委員報告好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":895,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時49分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴。有請管碧玲管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，辛苦了。早上在研究室裡面看各位委員對海委會的指教，我在這裡特別也肯定主委在這個工作上的付出。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：尤其是最近一些灰色地帶的滋擾，我們覺得後來海巡署的處置應該是有效地遏止包括盜挖砂及割海纜的行為，可不可以請主委簡短地說明一下，後續在這兩個方面的強化作為是不是有哪些未竟之處，需要立法院協助在各種計畫、經費或是設備上的加強？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。有關於抽砂的部分，抽砂船現在已經完全不來了，我們修了土採法以後，罰則加重非常多，嚇阻的作用真的就出來了，過去最多的時候一年是四千多艘次，所以這個部分我們有做到這個地步。最後一個二審的判決也在前幾天出來，就是我們要沒入船隻，這個案子大概卡了3年。","另外，有關海纜的部分，我們在處理的程序上有一個能夠更有效率處理的跨部會國安程序，這個部分我們已經建立起來了。剩下來要做的包括修法的部分，剛剛報告的是我們在跨部會應該要修法使其更精進的部分，我們管理權宜輪的方法當中，AIS的問題、要修船舶法的部分等等，22日會開第2次會議；另外，在劃設海纜範圍、公告禁錨區或禁泊區的部分，是下禮拜會持續再來開會，所以這些部分都有在精進。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。就這部分，您說到修法，在修法之前，相關資訊的取得是不是夠通暢？我們都知道，之前權宜輪或者幽靈船可能需要港務單位提供必要的船舶資料，這些部分過去我也曾經質詢過交通部及航港局，請問在跨部會的部分，因為在修法完成之前，我們需要透過更多的資訊掌握可能的潛在對象，海委會要取得這些資訊有沒有什麼困難？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們分兩個部分，一個是航港單位會給我們相關的資料，我們就建立黑名單，這個黑名單會分級，有高度威脅的或低度威脅的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這些資料的取得都沒有問題？"],["管主任委員碧玲：都沒有問題。另外，其實我們透過情監偵系統每天都在海上看，所以海纜的區域我們已經特別加以密注的情況之下，有一些狀況發生，我們也會主動地發現，即便發現滯留的船舶不在黑名單內，我們還是會關注、會監控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛講到偵監的能力，過去海委會的主委大部分都由具海軍背景的來擔任，我也曾經形容海委會、尤其是海巡署是我們的第二海軍，在這個過程當中，作為一個和平的警戒力量，過去我們有船、艦，我也曾經詢問過，在有人載具的部分、航空器的部分，有沒有計劃要去取得必要的有人航空器，作為在滯空時間及監控上提升你們的監偵能力？像日本的海上保安廳都有這樣的海巡機，我們臺灣的海委會或海巡署有沒有打算要建置這樣的機動能力？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前當然是以無人機隊為主，到底要不要增加定翼機、有人機的部分，我們沒有排除研議，也都還有在研議之中，但是以什麼樣的機制、負擔什麼樣的功能，目前還沒有定案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解建置有人機是一個龐大的工程，在此之前你們無人機的機隊，像旋翼機，我看要補充旋翼機，定翼機有無人載具，目前在長滯空機和短滯空機的交互運用上，你們無人機機隊的建置計畫有沒有一個短中長程的目標？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來會有中長期計畫，我們正在爭取、正在審議的過程之中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前的機隊規模大概有多少？是不是署長可以幫我們說明一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就你可以講的部分。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，我們現在準備的規劃是，目前現有的機型除了原來建置的旋翼型的以外，各分署都有建置自己的多軸無人機部分，至於數量，請容會後再跟委員報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。主委，我最後占用一點時間，我希望給海巡署一個建議，現在無人機、無人載具的運用，臺灣在觀念上算是滿先進的，其實就算是海巡署使用的這些無人機，也不一定限用艦載機，其實無人機的交替使用可以用陸基為基地，如果你們海巡署能夠建立以陸基為基地的長程定翼機，交錯配合艦載機來交替，做成一個監控網的話，這是可以思考的，這個部分不用回答，我只是提供您建言。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外一個就是屬於衛星的偵測部分，合成孔徑雷達現在的運用很成熟，很多科研機構都有在使用，我相信不管在海洋保育上或海面監控上，這樣的合成孔徑雷達在現在這麼多低軌道衛星的運用上已經有成熟的商用市場，未來不排除海委會能夠有自己使用的衛星時段或專屬，目前也是可以考慮去商用市場採購一些這種合成孔徑雷達對於我們必要的時間及地段的監控。這兩個部分提供主委未來在海巡業務上做一個參考。以上。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，我們再來跟委員報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於1週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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art":279.932,"end":292.548,"text":"那另外就是按照這個海洋保育法第八條這個所規定的這個第二項第二項第八條第二項這個你們這個審議會組成了嗎"},{"start":298.115,"end":327.604,"text":"組成了還沒成立我們執法都還沒有所以這個審議會還沒有成立都還沒有都還在修執法所以母法也還沒有實施那這個就是屬於第二項就是第二項要定這個辦法所以這個是正在是這次的依稿的好那第一項跟第二項都要定執法所以都要定執法"},{"start":328.363,"end":350.17,"text":"這個部分再請這個剛才我提過的我們會多注意各方面的聲音如果當初當初你們在辦說明會的時候到各地區說明會的如果他們的意見是跟這個有關係的也可以給納入我們都有我們都有回應謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時43分）主席，請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好，辛苦了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：首先謝謝我們在審查海洋保育法的時候，海洋委員會給予很多支持，我們內政委員會都能夠共同完成這個法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好厲害，這個法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對於這個法裡面有很多原住民的條款，像第五條、第八條、第十九條，當然還有一些罰則的部分也有涉及到原住民相關，這是前面的條文。完成這個法之後，也謝謝海洋委員會到各地去辦說明會。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個我都有去了解。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝！當然後續就是執行了，執行的過程當中當然有一些子法要訂定。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天我來不及準備，但是我有看了你們的預告，有5個子法正在預告之中，有3個是到5月26日，另外有2個是到6月。我之所以特別提，當然因為很多鄉親不見得了解預告的程序，所以也不見得會去上網，如果有相關意見的話，就是請海洋委員會能夠儘量給予採納。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","陳素月、陳素月、陳素月委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","丁學忠"],"page_start":297,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00005"}}},{"id":"160338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4ccedce7e9db0c1918e6452bc7faa753875aa7aeb25548b49d7f6994ea375bf835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:34:30 - 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謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時34分）謝謝主席，有請我們管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委好。主委，我想請教一下，因為這陣子我們發現在我們屏東枋山的海纜區有一艘坦尚尼亞的貨輪，還有另外一艘喀麥隆的貨輪滯留半年以上，我想這個是一個非常嚴重的問題，尤其目前權宜輪持續危害國安的事件，也引起國人的高度關注。請教主委，我們有沒有掌握相關的資訊？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們對於這些權宜輪分級以後管理與海上長期滯留的目標，我們都有相當程度的掌握，特定的這一艘船，我們有掌握，掌握的細節，如果委員有需要的話，我們請署長來跟委員說明，好不好？謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：特別跟委員報告，因為這兩艘船就是在我們監控的「東京備忘錄」96艘裡面，但是它是被我們評估為沒有威脅性的。第二部分，它滯留在那個地方，我們除了靠近我們的水域以後，我們會請航港局以廣播方式讓它離開，不行的話，我們海巡的艦船艇就會上去看，而這兩艘其中有一艘我們登檢過兩次，基本上上面沒有任何的問題。"],["徐委員富癸：都有去登檢？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這個部分還是要請主委多注意，畢竟國安的問題也是國人很關注，我想海委會也應該拿出一個強硬的態度來處理。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我剛剛跟委員報告，因為分級所以我們就有掌握，雖然說它分級沒有危險性，我們還是去登檢兩次了，所以……"],["徐委員富癸：還是要謹慎處理啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們會謹慎。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，因為我的選區有小琉球，目前小琉球也是我們臺灣很熱門的一個觀光景點，每一年大概有一百多萬的遊客。當然，過去我們周邊的海域，包含我們的海委會也好，還有大鵬灣管理處、還有屏東縣政府，我想大家針對這個觀光資源的保護，也都應該要盡一份的責任。但是去年監察院有針對小琉球的自然生態保育的部分……"],["管主任委員碧玲：珊瑚……"],["徐委員富癸：針對我們海委會有提出一個糾正。主委，我想小琉球海域生物的多樣性，甚至我們觀光資源的保護，主委這邊是不是應該加強多做一些作為？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我在主持海委會委員會議的時候，其實可以說對風景管理處是給予很大的壓力，因為我也認為，小琉球的生態承載量這件事情，目前掌控的程度還有可以精進的地方。雖然業務主管部門不在海委會，但是我都透過委員會議要求一定要做生態承載量的調查，重新去估算每日可以容納、容受的觀光的人口，目前這個數字，我們認為對於生態承載量而言，負擔還是很重，這是一點。另外，對於潮間帶管理的部分，我們過去也經過協調整合，屏東縣政府也非常的關心，晚近甚至屏東縣政府對於潮間帶的管理都還有進一步想要劃禁制區的計畫，我們也都有參與開會。當然，珊瑚受損、覆蓋率受到影響這個部分確實是有，但是總體來講，我們真的是不斷的在朝向改善的方向。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我想這必須要跨部會一起來整合。"],["管主任委員碧玲：它是朝改善的方向在走，但是我們是希望能夠保護得更多。"],["徐委員富癸：對，但是如果生態破壞、美景不見了，我想遊客也不會去了，所以也是我們必須要跨部會一起來整合的部分。依主委的高度，應該是來帶領我們相關的單位，大家一起來努力，大家一起來打拚啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們非常重視這一塊，謝謝委員關心。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，另外，今年農曆年節過後，我也接到很多起遠洋的漁民，甚至外籍漁工，他們因為在作業的時候生病，必須請我們海巡的同仁來救援，這邊也特別謝謝我們海巡的同仁，在第一時間跟我們的漁業署能夠搭配，在最快的時間能夠救援。不過我覺得在處理上面，畢竟我們跟國搜中心跟漁業署在通報之間有時候有一些資訊的落差，主委，這部分是不是應該搭一個平臺一起來努力？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前有平臺，我再來了解委員所說的哪一個個案在資訊上造成落差，這個我也很驚訝，因為基本上這個平臺要很順暢，然後要很精確，我會來了解。"],["徐委員富癸：因為有時候有一些路途在海上的時間比較長，我們必須要很精準地掌握到國搜，甚至海巡署的船艦什麼時候可以接到這個生病的漁民，趕快把他後送到本島就醫，這個時間上有一些落差。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們上個禮拜才來回一千多浬去戒護一位中風的船長回來，跟委員報告，其實我也希望委員共同來協助，我的理想構想是外交部跟農業部門對於我們補助進港的費用或者是去找好的保險制度來開設，讓我們的漁船、我們的船東有能力在發生事情的時候可以就近在第三國趕快去就醫，像有的是可以去關島就近就醫的……"],["徐委員富癸：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：都不願意。"],["徐委員富癸：因為醫療費用很高啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：主要是因為醫療費用那麼高，然後進港也要費用、交通也要費用，但這個部分我們來回一趟光油錢就600萬，600萬要是成為外交跟農業部門、漁業部門的補助費用下去的話，什麼費用都夠啊！"],["徐委員富癸：是。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是就卡在制度面，所以這個部分也要來突破，我們已經要求召開會議協調，但是協調的結果還是沒有辦法全部突破，為什麼呢？因為漁船的船員多半都非本國國籍，所以我們的補助制度就會遇到國籍的界線，因為是非本國國民就遇到了界線，所以卡住了。但是我最近又去公文，希望再度展開下個階段的跨部會協調整合，再請委員一起來協助我們。"],["徐委員富癸：我非常認同主委的看法，所以我們一起來努力。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["徐委員富癸：畢竟在外國就醫還有語言的問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為千里救援本來就是我一直放在心頭，所以我就會不捨，實在是每天都在想，你還沒回來，我不去接，但是要去接，又不是我們的量能做得到，那種糾結很深。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其現在黑鮪魚季有很多漁船在海上作業，隨時都有風險。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分我們希望趕快建立這樣一個制度。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是海巡這樣子千里救援的量能調度也都是困難，所以我們都盡全力在做。"],["徐委員富癸：好，主委，這個我們找時間再來整合一下。謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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些相關的單位來接觸過然後討論過這樣的議題"},{"start":121.096,"end":142.117,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們跟多邊的國家有進行合作但是合作的項目裡面要來包括說能夠補我們艦船艇數量不足的這個部分可能會比較困難我們目前合作的領域"},{"start":143.037,"end":162.37,"text":"因為這個都涉及領海領階區主權這相關的考量但是我們鄰國甚至於遠自歐洲而來對於台灣海峽作為自由航行公海"},{"start":163.831,"end":178.699,"text":"這樣的一個共識是有的那這個部分其實以去年來講大概有十個國家十個國家的艦船的軍艦航行經過那我現在講的主要是針對製造的量跟製造的部分我們剛剛提到船艦量比較不夠不知道海巡還有沒有這樣的構想"},{"start":190.706,"end":213.8,"text":"就是合作這樣子跟摩托合作特別是我們的造船當然是以國艦國造為優先但是如果未來我們新的造艦計畫遇到說國內的製造的量能情況都已經滿載的情況那我們既然是開國際標當然也有可能譬如說我們的調查船"},{"start":214.58,"end":233.725,"text":"都很有可能會是國外去標到都有可能但是海巡目前還是以國艦國造為我們的主軸我的意思是說以我們現在的狀況我們的海巡我們的要講艦隊也好我們的這樣子的能量"},{"start":235.005,"end":249.036,"text":"它數量是夠還是不夠我想當然是不夠的因為面對中國這麼多就算我們國產我們全力去推動我們的產業鏈但是還是有一定的局限就是我們沒有辦法製造那麼多的產業但是如同我們剛才講的"},{"start":250.365,"end":265.376,"text":"雖然說中國他建造的數量是我們的數以十倍但是如果我們納入我們同盟的朋友比方說日本比方說韓國比方說美國那我們的產量就可以倍增我的意思是說除了我們協助在維修上面也好"},{"start":265.876,"end":286.693,"text":"在造船材料模具電供系統方面提供我們的能量讓我們的盟友能夠建造更多建造更快之外我們也要思考說怎麼樣在全球的產業鏈特別是跟我國比較友好的國家能夠讓他們協助我們也擴大我們的產業鏈我們講的產業鏈不是只有製造而已甚至我一直在強調就是說我們購買"},{"start":290.04,"end":305.658,"text":"建造有沒有可能租用那確保說我們的這個在海巡的這些艦艇數量能夠有效的應對這是第一個部分所以我昨天在問這個顧部長我說有沒有想到要跟美方合作"},{"start":306.559,"end":329.086,"text":"他說現在有一些東西沒有辦法揭露這個資訊但是他們有這樣的意向所以我在這邊是想問一下主委有沒有意向跟美方合作我們提供我們的這些技術也好共同去計畫也好共同去生產也好是不是把這個市場做大能夠增加我們在海巡在我們在海洋上面能夠面對灰色侵擾的能力"},{"start":333.087,"end":348.811,"text":"如果是去租用船就涉及也是人的問題那我們每一年能夠培訓起來的人力也導致於我們造船的速度也等於影響到我們造船的速度"},{"start":349.611,"end":363.267,"text":"所以在這個部分要來進行國際合作的時候又有區域穩定跟國安層級的問題那這個部分決策的層級可能就不在於我們海巡或者是海委會"},{"start":364.588,"end":392.175,"text":"那也是一個涉及主權行使上面的國際合作的課題所以這個部分比較高度的複雜性我們會後有機會再跟委員多請教多探討看看委員的願景跟藍圖如果比較具體值得我們來學習研議考量的方向我們會來了解"},{"start":393.896,"end":394.86,"text":"好 谢谢主委 谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":793,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時27分）你好，我們請主委。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘代）：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。我看最近很多這種灰色侵擾，我們的海委會、海巡署都辛苦了！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是除了辛苦之外，我們還有一部分想要請教，也就是最近跟美方合作的可能性。昨天我在質詢國防部部長的時候有提到，現在美國，特別是造船業，他們希望復興造船業，針對中國在海上的侵擾，不管是透過他們軍事、準軍事、非軍事等各種手段，那已經是非常嚴峻的問題，在這樣嚴峻的問題下，我們有沒有足夠的船艦去應對？我想這是一個大哉問，因為看起來以中國的造船數量跟他們的造船實力，如同我昨天引據CSIS的資訊也可以看得出來，它占了全球大概53%，剩下就由韓國、日本跟其他國家去負擔船艦的製造。就我所知，報告中有提到，我們113年完成15艘，然後有58艘要交付的高緯度遠洋巡護船也已經動工。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，第一艘……"],["陳委員冠廷：但是我也觀察到海巡署現在轄下的船艦，1,000噸以上的大型船艦大概只有14艘，在2,000噸到3,000噸的對比，中國海警擁有的艦艇數量大概是我國的10倍，也就是說，在這樣的狀況之下，我們要推動國艦國造，強調本土產業鏈的建構，但是同時我們也知道在這樣的數量比例如此不均衡的狀況之下，跟主要的盟國合作是必須且一定要儘速去做的。想請教主委，有沒有跟這些相關的單位接觸過、討論過這樣的議題？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們跟多邊的國家有進行合作，但是合作的項目裡面，要能夠包括來補我們艦船艇數量不足的這個部分，就我們目前合作的領域來說，可能會比較困難，因為這個都涉及領海、鄰接區及主權相關的考量。但是我們鄰國甚至遠自歐洲而來的，對於臺灣海峽作為自由航行、公海，這樣的一個共識是有的，這個部分以去年來講，大概有10個國家的艦船、軍艦航行經過……"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，我覺得這個都很好，自由航行，我現在講的主要是針對製造的量跟……"],["管主任委員碧玲：製造是不是？製造的話，造船業……"],["陳委員冠廷：製造的部分，我要提到製造量比較不夠，不知道海巡、海委會有沒有這樣的構想，跟盟國合作，特別是美國？但是合作的項目裡面，要能夠包括來補我們艦船艇數量不足的這個部分，就我們目前合作的領域來說，可能會比較困難，因為這個都涉及領海、鄰接區及主權相關的考量。但是我們鄰國甚至遠自歐洲而來的，對於臺灣海峽作為自由航行、公海，這樣的一個共識是有的，這個部分以去年來講，大概有10個國家的艦船、軍艦航行經過……"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，我覺得這個都很好，自由航行，我現在講的主要是針對製造的量跟……"],["管主任委員碧玲：製造是不是？製造的話，造船業……"],["陳委員冠廷：製造的部分，我要提到製造量比較不夠，不知道海巡、海委會有沒有這樣的構想，跟盟國合作，特別是美國？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的造船當然是以國艦國造為優先，但是如果未來我們新的造艦計畫，遇到國內製造量能都已經滿載的情況，我們既然是開國際標，當然也有可能譬如說我們的調查船，很有可能是國外去標到，都有可能，但是海巡目前還是以國艦國造為我們的主軸。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，我的意思是說，以我們現在的狀況，我們的海巡艦隊也好，我們這樣子的能量，數量是夠還是不夠？"],["管主任委員碧玲：都不夠。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想當然是不夠的，因為面對中國這麼多……就算我們國產全力去推動我們的產業鏈，但還是有一定的侷限，就是我們沒辦法製造那麼多的船艦。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，需要時間。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是如同我們剛才講的，雖然中國建造的數量是我們的數以十倍，如果我們納入同盟的朋友，比方說日本、比方說韓國、比方說美國，那我們的產量就可以倍增。我的意思是說，除了我們協助在維修上面，在造船、材料、模具、電控系統方面提供我們的能量，讓我們的盟友能夠建造更多、建造更快之外，我們也要思考怎麼樣在全球的產業鏈，特別是跟我國比較友好的國家，能夠讓他們協助，我們也擴大我們的產業鏈。我們講的產業鏈不是只有製造而已，甚至我一直在強調，我們購買、建造，有沒有可能租用？確保我們海巡的這些艦艇數量能夠有效的應對，這是第一個部分。所以我昨天問顧部長有沒有想到要跟美方合作？他說現在有一些東西沒有辦法揭露這個資訊，但是他們有這樣的意向，所以我是想問一下主委，有沒有意向跟美方合作？我們提供這些技術也好，共同去計畫也好，共同去生產也好，是不是把這一個市場做大，能夠增加我們海巡在海洋上能夠面對灰色侵擾的能力？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，如果是去租用船，就涉及也是人的問題，我們每一年能夠培訓起來的人力，也等於影響到我們造船的速度，所以在這個部分要來進行國際合作的時候，又有區域穩定跟國安層級的問題，這個部分決策的層級可能就不在於我們海巡或者是海委會，也是一個涉及主權行使上面國際合作的課題，所以這個部分有比較高度的複雜性，我們會後有機會再跟委員多請教、多探討，看看委員的願景跟藍圖，如果比較具體，有值得我們來學習、研議、考量的方向，我們會來了解，這樣好不好？"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：好，我們請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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好再來我講"},{"start":201.977,"end":204.639,"text":"現在我聽到網美會委員指示說有兩部船已經要航船 經費又有問題這都很嚴重 我今天看中華民國海巡署的船"},{"start":222.618,"end":235.222,"text":"錢又沒辦法拿到 還有園地 民間也有困擾我們站在那裡 他們的手柄也給我們站在那裡所以說這是很嚴重的問題 錢也沒辦法找時間拿到這是民間也有困難 對對對在我們來說 實在是很可惜 我們的力量也減少了因為他們都有照顧我們的"},{"start":246.945,"end":254.81,"text":"規格程序在做的 本來11月高準的沒那麼高10月11月的年底 年底兩下大準沒那麼高有時候去做新工業 這裡的資金問題放不下有可能會產生很多後遺症 尤其我們是一個國家 很多標國家的東西"},{"start":271.235,"end":279.816,"text":"還沒辦法講如今來來搞這次是很嚴重的問題這就是標明看起來不會說你現在五十多歲了把你抬到十幾歲剩下什麼 怎麼會要求但是事實不是這樣我五十多歲裡面三十九個月就是像這種的時間夠了要錢給人家對 站有很站有金錢要付錢的是啊這去抬到了就變成說我我錢就沒多高嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":300.76,"end":311.069,"text":"所以這些都要去缺乏現在就沒有辦法 現在又找不到方法現在也還怕說 六百多億如果要賺不知道要賺多少我們賺多少這六百多億如果要求我們要賺 如果說要賺二十八%如果說要賺二十八% 很恐怖現在六百多億下來 我們如果分配就二十八%"},{"start":327.064,"end":331.796,"text":"所有解凍所有的凍結案中台也要報告"},{"start":333.041,"end":352.477,"text":"對啊,那一棟就沒意義啊,因為那一棟都要裝台啊,還沒搞,還要台頭回來,現在在用的,所以很困擾的,我們現在也,譬如說電風一鍋煲煮到現在,我們也都還沒下去,因為你就沒沒收,就壞了壞了,壞壞壞了,台灣話叫做壞壞壞了,懸崖未決啦,不是好像說,我們的海洋的人,很多補貨都是遇到這個問題啦,"},{"start":359.503,"end":361.745,"text":"好 主委你先接話 我就問海巡署署長委員好好 署長"},{"start":386.903,"end":388.585,"text":"針對我好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好好"},{"start":408.84,"end":429.248,"text":"放假的期間我們過去都是有民航機在照嘛你現在政府考慮說民航機沒辦法照但是你要借錢回來你只要錢就要照一天啊民航機一小時所以說這差距太大這也是你要輸定要去缺貨啊"},{"start":430.493,"end":450.642,"text":"因為這邊的採旅費 國內旅費部分光東沙 東南沙就貸600多萬就是說我們到今年的9月1號10月我們沒有給民航班所以我們用客輪去代替這客輪就要走一天 22點鐘到24點鐘所以這個時間的"},{"start":454.083,"end":460.729,"text":"優等 應用動員的辦法 第二點如果如果如果如果如果如果如果如果如果如果如果如果"},{"start":466.015,"end":472.121,"text":"這書中這你要去繪補是不然你協調說我們的軍方這邊會用的他說他們會用的老母雞過去我看過去還有老母雞可以背不然你這樣做我想說這是他們的權力你繪補的時候來回就要兩天"},{"start":485.976,"end":495.882,"text":"這部份我們都跟國防部合了,所以這部份應該基本上今年應該是沒什麼問題啦對啦,好,謝謝,這是他們的管理,沒有你說,就是我們的東林辦跟我們來回的兩天啊,好不好好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":728,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時19分）主席、與會同仁。請海委會管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，我早上看了很多委員都在關心海底電纜的破壞，已經有很多次了，包含臺灣對澎湖這一線，還有臺灣對馬祖這一線，這兩線都是遭到我們的船隻破壞，這都是我們的海巡在取締，海巡真的是很辛苦，我早上看到大家也都是很肯定，所以管主委帶領的海巡，你們還是要再強硬一點，維護我們國家的安全，這是我們的重中之重。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：針對他們對海底電纜的破壞，這個大家都知道，但是本席在這邊要說，因為我們是北部選出來的，我看我們國家船舶實驗室是興建在興達港，也就是高雄嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：我是跟主委分享一下，我們北部有基隆、淡水……"],["管主任委員碧玲：要有土地啦！因為那邊有提供土地給我們。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為我們的海巡很多，總部也設在高雄，我們這邊是不是也可以設一個分部？讓我們的海巡弟兄不用兩地跑，這樣奔波也不好吧！我是提議你在北部這邊也可以設個分部，就是船舶的實驗室，基隆那邊腹地應該也不成問題、淡水這邊應該也是OK吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：應該是行政法人啦，現在就是要有土地還有碼頭，如果有土地和碼頭，對我們來說我們都很高興，現在也都很缺。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以這就要去研究，我們現在在找北部的碼頭地點要來增加，但找也找不到，都要找到軍方那才有，所以軍方以外的地方有沒有可能有碼頭、土地給我們用，我們再進一步了解，好不好？到目前為止是都要找到軍方那邊才有。"],["吳委員琪銘：是啊，我說你們都著重高雄啊，所以這個部分是不是可以來設一個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們海保署其實是很需要分部，不然就看海保署有沒有可能來發展看看，海保署也是太小了，如果海保署有需要分部的時候再來了解，請委員也替我們找看看有什麼地方有地，再跟我們說。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，這是我的建議，希望主委納入考量，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：再來，早上我聽王美惠委員質詢提到，我們有兩艘船已經要交船了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，年底。"],["吳委員琪銘：但我們的經費又有問題，這很嚴重！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是啊！"],["吳委員琪銘：今天標的是我們中華民國海巡署的造船，錢卻沒辦法拿到，又延期……"],["管主任委員碧玲：民間也有困擾。"],["吳委員琪銘：你會造成造船方的負擔……"],["管主任委員碧玲：它的廠房也讓我們占據了。"],["吳委員琪銘：是啊，所以這是很嚴重的問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：錢也都沒辦法如期拿到，這樣民間也會有困難。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對我們來說實在是很可惜，我們的力量也減少了。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為他們都有照我們的規格、程序在進行……"],["管主任委員碧玲：本來是11月交船的，結果沒辦法交，10月、11月年底兩艘大船都沒辦法交。"],["吳委員琪銘：是，這也會造成業者資金的問題、周轉不過去，也有可能會產生很多後遺症，尤其我們作為國家，它投標製造國家的東西還沒辦法如期交，這是很嚴重的問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這就是說從表面上看你的預算增加五十多億，把你砍個10億算什麼，怎麼會「哀哀叫」？但是事實不是這樣，我五十多億裡面有三十九億多就是像這種的，時間到了要把錢付給人家，照契約今年要付錢的，這部分被砍了之後變成我的船就沒辦法交了。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以這個都要去克服。"],["管主任委員碧玲：現在就沒辦法，還找不到方法，我現在也擔心這六百多億如果要再砍，不知道配額要我們砍多少，這六百多億如果再要求我們砍，如果要再砍28%，很恐怖呢！"],["吳委員琪銘：是啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：現在600億下來，我們如果再分配到要砍28%，所有的凍結案都砍了也不夠，那解凍就沒意義了，因為都要全砍啊！"],["吳委員琪銘：是啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：而且還不夠，還要回來砍現在在用的，所以很困擾，比方說現在地方有一些補助，到現在我們也都還沒補助下去，因為我們就「沐沐泅」，台語叫做「盪盪幌」，懸而未決啦！"],["吳委員琪銘：這個不是只有海洋委員會，很多部會都是遇到這個問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：很困擾，地方也很困擾。"],["吳委員琪銘：我們很多的預算都縮減很多，也是大家都跳腳，所以這都是未來要去克服的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：希望明年不要再有這樣的事情。"],["吳委員琪銘：畢竟人家是標到我們海巡的案子，結果又沒辦法如期付人家錢，這都造成困擾了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委，你先請坐，還有一點我來問海巡署署長。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，我比較關心我們的東沙，現在有多少海巡署同仁在那？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：詳細數字我保留一下，但是將近300。"],["吳委員琪銘：你說300人，預算方面現在已經都縮減了，他們在放假期間，我們過去都是有民航機在飛嘛。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：你現在經費卡住，民航機沒辦法飛，但是你要搭船回來，光是船的航行就要1天了，民航機是1小時。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：這差距太大了，這也是署長你要去克服的。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，因為這次差旅費在國內旅費的部分，光東沙、南沙就被砍了六百多萬，也就是說我們到今年9月以後，10月就沒有民航機可以飛，所以我們用客輪替代，客輪要航行1天，22小時到24小時，所以這個時間就拉長了，會影響同仁放假。第二點，如果那個時候海象不好、客輪不開，我們同仁就沒辦法放假，所以這影響很大。"],["吳委員琪銘：沒有，署長，這個你要去克服。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：不然你協調我們軍方這邊可用的飛機，如果他們可以用「老母雞」，我看我們過去還有「老母雞」可以飛，這樣才有辦法，這是他們的權利，放假的時間光來回就要兩天，這對我們……"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，這部分我們都有跟國防部協調，基本上今年應該是沒什麼問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝，這是他們的權利，不然我們的同仁放假，光來回就2天，好不好？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["主席：我們請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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普院同仁 大家好我們請主委好 請主委"},{"start":13.142,"end":30.229,"text":"主委好本期今天就整個海委會的一個本期關心的相關的這個業務來跟您做一個討論那首先是有關於跨部會協調性的問題那因為整個海洋政策其實是我們海委會這邊來主導但是我們知道在實際執行上"},{"start":31.63,"end":36.256,"text":"其實還有各部會的一些相關比較專業的這個業務所以本席這邊有關心這個整個海洋政策跟海委會主導的這樣一個平台目前的一個狀況所以我們知道呢在整個這個高"},{"start":47.97,"end":48.431,"text":"環境部和內政部"},{"start":66.474,"end":89.352,"text":"那麼國防安全跟海事工程又牽扯到經濟部、國防部、科技部那本席剛從另外一個委員會過來因為你們要成立那個國家海洋科技研究中心那其實很多人關心的都國安的問題但本席這邊也關心到海洋專業知識的公共性的問題所以這邊其實你們是海洋治理的一個中枢機關"},{"start":90.233,"end":107.353,"text":"那國家海洋政策白皮書也是你們擬的那所以除了這個召開協調會議那擬定相關的這個白皮書以外呢那你們也提到了2050在整個淨林航運路徑圖還有智慧海港的轉型還有淨海"},{"start":108.574,"end":132.693,"text":"綠能的一個規劃等等的項目那這個這些項目要怎麼來落實有誰來落實那麼在國家是不是有納入國家的中長期的預算還是目前還在政策構想的層級本行剛才林林總總把這個整個的分工但是也有分工的專業性可是你又是一個主導的單位那實際的執行上我們都知道這個政府的一個分工我不知道你們這邊目前的一個狀態是如何"},{"start":136.616,"end":152.38,"text":"當初海洋委員會他到底是要是海洋部或者是海洋委員會經過非常複雜跟坎坷的激盪的過程那最後呢定位為海洋委員會而且編制高度的小"},{"start":153.917,"end":176.24,"text":"編制很小因此它就被定位成為是協調整合的機關但是海巡跟海保跟國海院它擔負比較多的食物的主管業務比如說海洋保育的話它就是屬於我們野生動物保育跟海洋保育的這個主管機關"},{"start":177.681,"end":200.885,"text":"那海巡當然就有國安治安平安上面海岸巡防法是主管但是他所執法的業務也都分散在其他的業務主管機關所以協調整合跟海巡執法跟海委會的協調整合比較是當初的定位"},{"start":201.725,"end":224.23,"text":"因为业务发展的结果慢慢的我们会有比较多协调整合的结果变成刚刚委员所讲的比较大的一个主导性但是那个主导性还是建立在我们的协调整合上就我刚刚讲我们刚刚一直在讲的要修传播法就不是我们来我们的业务"},{"start":224.91,"end":244.481,"text":"要修傳播法就是交通部的業務但是主導性我們相當的強因為我們在執法的過程就告訴你說AIS的問題你不能不修了所以我們的主導還是經由這樣的過程來產生基本上包括剛剛所講的綠能的產業"},{"start":247.142,"end":263.43,"text":"我們基本上還是以經濟部才是業務主管的部門但是當有中央跨部會需要協調整合中央的地方政府需要協調整合或者是民間跟政府需要協調整合來找我們海委會的時候我們就會啟動個案的協調整合"},{"start":267.532,"end":273.136,"text":"那當我們 因為當初本來是海洋部的這個構想最後變成海委會的時候就有目前的這些狀況那我們在這些狀況當中我們盡量的把它做到最好看起來就是一個協調整合的這個平台所以有許多的這個相關的主導的業務那台灣作為一個島國那四面環海"},{"start":295.894,"end":305.265,"text":"看起來我們離整個海洋國家的距離還有一大段但是我們漸漸的用中長期計畫把那個主導性慢慢的就建立了很大所以剛才本席這邊提到的這個2050的這個那幾個比如說海運路線等等你們都已經納入國家中長期而且有預算的一個便利嗎"},{"start":315.576,"end":335.356,"text":"譬如說科研 我們就把 譬如說近鄰轉型的學專的補助 科專的補助計劃我們就從零預算 現在變成好幾千萬的預算所以我們就藉由這一種中長期計劃我們慢慢的在建立一些主導性"},{"start":336.224,"end":350.784,"text":"那謝謝就麻煩主委把剛才本席這邊講的那幾個方向那你們中長期目前有具體的在預算上還有時程的規劃上的相關計畫給本席補充好嗎那最後一個問題本席知道您也蠻關心海洋教育文化的"},{"start":351.425,"end":367.125,"text":"所以我讲的比较对不起刚才那个部分我补充一点所以目前海岸灾后的管理是属于营建署那污水的追踪又环境部所以你们有没有一个海域灾防的规划海域的污染是归我们"},{"start":369.126,"end":388.532,"text":"但是要處理源頭的時候海域的災防當中的房屋也是歸我們這個整體性的系統有沒有可能由海委會這邊來處理但是如果是海難的話如果海域的災害是海難的話它的主導災害防救體系裡面就是中央就是交通部門"},{"start":392.334,"end":417.294,"text":"這邊一個比較具體的問題主要的問題跟建議我知道你們在國研院或是你們的海洋研究中心的海洋教育也有一些相關的推動然後是不是可以給本席一些補充就你們跟教育部的一個整合的平台跟目前大家各司其職的一個內容跟規劃那另外本席這邊很具體的提出來"},{"start":419.075,"end":446.352,"text":"你們有沒有可能來設置海洋教育場域認證的地點然後提供校外教學交通補助跟師資配套的相關的這個支持呢我們來研究好不好我們在推動的海洋科學序列的這個OSS的海洋素養教育的這一塊我們當然就有我們的工作的方案那委員所說我們再進一步來了解好的謝謝主委那就請會後補充相關的資料跟做一些討論好謝謝"},{"start":447.95,"end":448.96,"text":"好 我們請五千名委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":698,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時11分）主席、府院同仁，大家好。我們請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：主委好。今天要就海委會本席關心的相關業務來跟你做一個討論，首先是有關於跨部會協調性的問題，因為整個海洋政策是由海委會這邊主導，但是我們知道在實際執行上其實還有各部會一些相關、比較專業的業務，所以本席關心整個海洋政策與海委會主導的平臺目前的狀況。在高度部會協調的海洋相關事務裡面，藍色經濟及港口物流目前是交通部在主導，漁業經濟應該是在農業部，海洋環境污染及海岸災防防治涉及環境部和內政部，國防安全及海事工程又牽扯到經濟部、國防部、科技部，本席剛從另外一個委員會過來，因為你們要成立國家海洋科技研究中心，其實很多人關心的都是國安問題，但本席這邊要關心海洋專業知識的公共性問題。其實你們是海洋治理的中樞機關，國家海洋政策白皮書也是你們擬的，除了召開協調會議、擬定相關白皮書以外，你們也提到2050整個淨零航運路徑圖，還有智慧海港轉型、近海綠能規劃等項目，這些項目要怎麼落實，由誰來落實？是不是有納入國家的中長期預算還是目前還在政策構想的層級？","本席剛才林林總總把整個分工敘明，也有分工的專業性，你又是一個主導單位，我們都知道政府的分工，在實際的執行上，我不知道你們這邊目前的狀態如何？所以要跟你就教。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，當初海洋委員會到底是要海洋部或者是海洋委員會，經過非常複雜和坎坷的激盪過程，最後定位為海洋委員會，而且編制高度的小、編制很小，因此它就被定位成為是協調整合機關。但是海巡、海保和國海院擔負比較多的實務主管業務，譬如在海洋保育方面，就屬於野生動物保育、海洋保育的主管機關；海巡當然就有「國安、治安、平安」三安，海岸巡防法是主管，但是它所執法的業務也都分散在其他的業務主管機關，所以海巡執法與海委會的協調整合比較是當初的定位。","因為業務發展，慢慢的我們會有比較多協調整合的結果，變成剛剛委員所講的比較大的主導性，但是那個主導性還是建立在我們的協調整合上，譬如我剛剛一直在講的，要修船舶法就不是我們的業務，要修船舶法是交通部的業務，但是我們的主導性相當地強，因為我們在執法的過程就告訴你AIS的問題不能不修了，所以我們的主導還是經由這樣的過程來產生。基本上包括剛剛所講的綠能產業，經濟部還是業務主管部門，但是當有中央跨部會需要協調整合，中央和地方政府需要協調整合或者是民間和政府需要協調整合來找海委會的時候，我們就會啟動個案的協調整合。當我們……"],["林委員倩綺：有點可惜啦！這個看起來還滿無力的，然後個案整合的情況滿多的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為當初本來是海洋部的構想，最後變成海委會的時候，就有目前的這些狀況，我們在這些狀況當中儘量把它做到最好，到目前為止……"],["林委員倩綺：看起來就是一個協調整合的平臺，所以有許多相關的主導業務，臺灣作為一個島國，四面環海，看起來我們離海洋國家的距離還有一大段。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是我們漸漸用中長期計畫，把主導性慢慢的建立得很大。"],["林委員倩綺：剛才本席提到2050的那幾個項目，比如航運路線等等，你們都已經納入國家中長期計畫，而且有預算的編列嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：譬如科研、淨零轉型的學專補助、科專補助計畫，我們就從零預算到現在變成好幾千萬的預算，所以我們藉由這種中長期計畫，慢慢的在建立一些主導性。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，麻煩主委把剛才本席講的那幾個方向，你們中長期目前有具體的在預算上，還有時程規劃上的相關計畫，給本席補充，好嗎？最後一個問題，本席知道你也滿關心海洋教育文化的。對不起，剛才那個部分我補充一點，目前海岸災後的管理是屬於營建署，污水追蹤又是環境部，所以你們有沒有一個海域災防的規劃呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：海域的污染是歸我們。"],["林委員倩綺：好，海域的污染是歸你們……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是要處理源頭的話……"],["林委員倩綺：但是海域的災防呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：海域災防當中的防污也是歸我們。"],["林委員倩綺：這一個整體性的系統有沒有可能由海委會這邊來主導和處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果海域的災害是海難的話，它的主導在災害防救體系裡面就是中央、就是交通部門。"],["林委員倩綺：好，這邊有一個比較具體的問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：還好，我們都還算順暢。"],["林委員倩綺：主要的問題和建議，我知道你們國海院或者是海洋研究中心對海洋教育也有相關的推動，是不是可以給本席一些補充，就你們與教育部的整合平臺，以及目前大家各司其職的內容及規劃。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["林委員倩綺：另外，本席這邊很具體的提出來，你們有沒有可能設置海洋教育場域認證的地點，提供校外教學、交通補助和師資配套的相關支持？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們來研究，好不好？我們在推動海洋科學序列（OSS）的海洋素養教育這一塊，當然就有我們的工作方案，至於委員所說的，我們再進一步來了解。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝主委，就請會後補充相關的資料，跟做一些討論，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["主席：我們請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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請海保署"},{"start":11.021,"end":34.997,"text":"好是署長是署長你好我想要直接跟您討論關於離島是金門還有馬祖也就是連江縣他們過往在遇到海廢的問題來下一張基本上這些海廢其實是我們在現場實地拍攝照的照片那根據相關統計資料每一年相關要清出來在金門還有連江也就是馬祖清出來的海廢"},{"start":35.777,"end":60.237,"text":"其實超過數百噸我想這個數字你們一定非常非常的清楚可是我覺得最大的困境就是目前這些海廢其實有大量是來自於中國沿岸的生活廢棄物還有來自海上的航道儀器物當然也有來自我們台灣本島的漂流物我甚至在馬祖的座談會當中我聽到當地非常非常多的"},{"start":61.218,"end":81.256,"text":"民宿业者或者是当地在做生意的或是当地的住民告诉我们他们每年都要发动非常多志工一起参与这个清除海费而这个清除海费的工作它其实是大量的劳务而且呢如果不去做这些事情我们以为它会随海洋漂走其实是不会的来下一张"},{"start":82.037,"end":94.172,"text":"那也因為有這個問題呢我們其實知道金門他們過去說要把這個海漂垃圾還給中國他們說要用浮桶的方法把它帶回去馬祖也曾經多次公開呼籲說垃圾應該要回歸來源因為呢這麼大量的離島海廢其實"},{"start":98.638,"end":116.326,"text":"大量不成比例的都是在承擔所謂他國海廢的處境我們認為這件事情我們到底可以怎麼想像因為這不是你們單方面可以解決的就像剛剛徐新英委員說海嵐這件事情其實也不是海委會單方面可以解決的如果有中國敵意刻意屢次入侵"},{"start":116.826,"end":136.467,"text":"然後破壞台灣海磊你們怎麼做更多的海防兄弟往前線衝其實也不能夠確保不會一再發生所以我們認真來看海廢這件事情我們希望他可以還給離島居民一個乾淨的海洋因為那是他們的生活空間而且那些海廢確實已經造成生活的困擾"},{"start":137.248,"end":160.728,"text":"我們看一下你們的資料113年度海漂底廢棄物還有微型塑膠分布調查的分析計畫裡面你們有針對台灣的海洋海廢還有海底的廢棄物進行定點調查還有採樣分析可是你們目前的計畫只有針對北部還有外海的海域沒有針對離島做完整的中長期監測"},{"start":161.989,"end":189.327,"text":"那離島的長期資料其實一直都是不夠的我不知道我們有沒有機會建立一個關於屬於專屬於離島的海費監測指標還有回報系統可不可以請您簡單回應一下是跟委員這邊報告一下就是目前這邊委員收到之前的這個資料包含定點或者是採用分析比較是剛提到說本島這邊對沒錯海漂或者是海底的這個部分那特別針對金門跟馬祖或者是離島的這個部分我們其實今年也開始"},{"start":190.047,"end":206.021,"text":"今年是指2025年開始起動對 就是我們的中長城的計畫那也配合這些離島的離島建設方案因為這些離島基本上他們都有離島建設方案那他們離島建設方案裡面其實也都有跟海洋污染的部分有關所以他們其實也都有海汙水質跟海廢這三個部分"},{"start":207.162,"end":223.329,"text":"可是你老先生方案很多錢其實撥到地方上去使用的不是嗎是但是因為他會有一部分的錢是需要中央的同時的配合款所以基本上我們也會同步的看過他們的計劃所以我們也希望把這個部分去導到說大家會有共同的這個目標跟方向所以"},{"start":224.757,"end":253.349,"text":"那如果它有中央跟地方的配合我认为我们海保署就应该要加强管控的力道或者是协助他们订定真的更完整的计划那如同您刚刚说书长您刚刚说这个相关计划可不可以会后给我们先给我们办公室我觉得要确认我们如何协助地方政府完成居民他们对于这个海费的想象跟许愿因为这真的会影响到他们的生活那可是我认为如果我们还是没有相关指标其实还是有危险所以我们希望会后你给我们的资料里面我们共同来研究一下好"},{"start":253.669,"end":271.175,"text":"好 那接下來我們想要問一下其實你們在113到116有訂定一個污染防治劑接近海洋計畫我相信你非常熟悉但是我要再次強調這個計畫裡面我們目前所看到的資料你們希望推動地方參與鼓勵回收再利用專案性補助這都是一個沒有針對離島"},{"start":272.515,"end":300.316,"text":"跟委員這邊說明這個其實有針對離島就是像我們提到說我們的前海戰將或者是環保艦隊這個其實都有離島所以金門跟馬祖其實也都有環保艦隊跟前海戰將的培訓那基本上那個環保艦隊就是從他們開始出去就必須把自己的垃圾帶回來然後當要去清的時候他們也會跟著一起去清那前海戰將基本上我們是培訓一些潛水相關的人在碰到有些海廢的時候其實這些有技術或者經過訓練的人他們就會下去清"},{"start":302.197,"end":328.812,"text":"這個也是在113到116這個計畫當中但是在根據離島的部分我剛剛講針對離島的部分我認為應該跟北部跟所謂的台灣的海域其實是不一樣的那這個部分你們有研究在加強嗎是這個部分我們會特別針對離島有在基本上就是像大象可能會相同就是比如說針對剛說的前海沾漿或是這些的大象會相同可是特別針對離島因為像剛委員這邊有提到他們的垃圾如果清出來之後他要運回來基本上是非常"},{"start":329.392,"end":355.632,"text":"非常困難的所以我們會有特別的那個回收或是處理的方式比如說像大型的那個那個保麗龍他就會必須要冷壓或者是這個一樣是中央要跟地方合作嗎是對我們這邊也有相關的經費補助所以可是相關經費補助如果又只是落於中央給錢然後沒有積極的監督地方政府或是協助地方政府的角色我們只是把錢花完但是我們看不到實質的效果所以在這個部分是不是也可以會後提供資料給我們"},{"start":356.092,"end":375.052,"text":"或者是我们就直接来约开会确认我们目前所服务的金马地区真的有确实落到不管是在海洋污染捷径防治计划或者是海漂的部分好不好好那我想这两个海洋的议题就麻烦你们带回去那我们办公室之后会再积极跟你们约开会好谢谢好谢谢署长谢谢主席谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我就直接請海保署好了，這樣更直接，所以就不勞煩主委了，謝謝。"],["主席：來，請海保署。"],["陳委員培瑜：是署長嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：是，委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長，你好。我想要直接跟您討論關於離島，就是金門還有馬祖，也就是連江縣，他們過往也遇到海廢的問題，基本上，這些海廢的照片是我們在現場實地拍攝的，根據相關的統計資料，每一年在金門還有連江也就是馬祖所清出來的海廢其實超過數百噸，我想這個數字你們一定非常非常的清楚。"],["陸署長曉筠：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我覺得最大的困境就是目前這些海廢其實有大量是來自於中國沿岸的生活廢棄物，還有來自海上的航道遺棄物，當然也有來自我們臺灣本島的漂流物，甚至在馬祖的座談會當中，我有聽到當地非常非常多的民宿業者或者是在當地做生意的人說，也有當地的住民告訴我們，他們每年都要發動非常多志工一起參與清除海廢，而這個清除海廢的工作其實是大量的勞務，而且如果不去做這件事情，我們以為它會隨海洋漂走，其實是不會的。也因為有這個問題，我們其實知道，金門的人在過去說要把海漂垃圾還給中國，他們說要用浮桶的方法把它帶回去，馬祖也曾經多次公開呼籲垃圾應該要回歸來源，因為這麼大量的離島海廢其實都是不成比例在承擔他國海廢的處境，我們認為這件事情並不是你們單方面可以解決的，就像剛剛徐欣瑩委員所說的海纜這件事情，其實也不是海委會單方面可以解決的，如果有中國出於敵意而刻意地屢次入侵，然後破壞臺灣海纜，你們要怎麼做？即使更多的海防兄弟往前線衝，其實也不能夠確保不會一再發生。所以我們認真來看海廢這件事情，我們希望可以還給離島居民一個乾淨的海洋，因為那是他們的生活空間，而且那些海廢確實已經造成生活的困擾。我們看一下你們的資料，在113年度海漂底廢棄物及微型塑膠分布調查的分析計畫裡面，你們有針對臺灣的海洋海廢還有海底的廢棄物進行定點調查，還有採樣分析，可是你們目前的計畫只有針對北部還有外海的海域，並沒有針對離島做完整的中長期監測，所以離島的長期資料其實一直都是不夠的，我不知道我們有沒有機會建立一個專屬於離島的海廢監測指標還有回報系統，可不可以請你簡單回應一下？"],["陸署長曉筠：跟委員報告，就是目前委員這邊收到之前的這個資料，包含定點或者是採樣分析，比較是剛才所說本島這邊的海漂或者是海底的這個部分……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯。"],["陸署長曉筠：特別針對金門跟馬祖或者是離島的這個部分，我們從今年也開始啟動一些中長程……"],["陳委員培瑜：今年是指2025年開始啟動？"],["陸署長曉筠：對，就是我們的中長程計畫，那也配合這些離島的離島建設方案，因為這些離島基本上都有離島建設方案，在這些離島建設方案裡面其實也都有跟海洋污染相關的部分，他們其實也都有海污、水質跟海廢這三個部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是離島建設方案有很多錢其實是撥到地方上去使用的，不是嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：是，但是因為會有一部分的錢是需要中央同時的配合款，基本上我們也會同步的看過他們的計畫，所以我們也希望把這個部分去導到大家會有共同的目標跟方向。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果有中央跟地方的配合，我認為我們海保署就應該要加強管控的力道，或者是協助他們訂定真正更完整的計畫，關於剛剛署長說的相關計畫，可不可以在會後送給我們辦公室？"],["陸署長曉筠：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得要確認我們如何協助地方政府完成居民對於這個海廢的想像跟許願，因為這真的會影響到他們的生活，我認為如果我們還是沒有相關的指標，其實還是會有危險，所以我們希望會後你送給我們資料，我們共同來研究一下。"],["陸署長曉筠：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來我們想要問一下，其實你們有訂定一個113到116年污染防治暨潔淨海洋計畫，我相信你非常熟悉，但是我要再次強調，在這個計畫裡面，根據我們目前所看到的資料，你們希望推動地方參與、鼓勵回收再利用、專案型補助，可是這些都沒有針對離島。"],["陸署長曉筠：跟委員說明，這個其實有針對離島，就是像我們的潛海戰將或者是環保艦隊，這個部分其實都有離島，所以金門跟馬祖其實也都有環保艦隊跟潛海戰將的的培訓，基本上，那個環保艦隊就是必須把自己的垃圾帶回來，然後當要去清理的時候，他們也會跟著一起去清。那潛海戰將基本上就是培訓一些與潛水相關的人，在碰到有些海廢的時候，其實這些有技術或者經過訓練的人，他們就會下去清。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個也是在113到116年的計畫當中嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：是，這個也是。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是針對離島的部分，我認為應該跟北部和所謂的臺灣海域是不一樣的，這個部分你們有研究再加強嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：我們會特別針對離島這個部分，基本上在這些大項可能會相同，比如剛剛說的潛海戰將或是這些大項會相同，可是特別針對離島，像剛剛委員有提到他們的垃圾如果清出來之後要運回來，基本上是非常困難的，所以我們會有特別的回收或是處理的方式，比如像大型的保麗龍就必須要冷壓或熱壓。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個一樣是中央要跟地方合作嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：對，我們這邊有相關的經費補助。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是相關經費補助如果又只是落於中央給錢，然後沒有積極監督地方政府或是協助地方政府的角色，我們只是把錢花完，但是看不到實質的效果，所以在這個部分是不是也可以會後提供資料給我們？或者是我們就直接約開會，確認目前所服務的金馬地區真的有確實落實，不管是在海洋污染潔淨防治計畫或者是海漂的部分，好不好？"],["陸署長曉筠：是，我們再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想這兩個海洋議題就麻煩你們帶回去，我們辦公室之後會再積極跟你們約開會，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["陸署長曉筠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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如果是所有的法令規章各部會負責的部分都必須要修的部分那就是政委會主持我們負責法制的政委會主持"},{"start":59.847,"end":71.966,"text":"那像譬如說事發一開始的時候是我們海委會來招集那看看項目那譬如說下個禮拜要開的修電纜是什麼修電纜的話電纜壞了"},{"start":75.752,"end":93.247,"text":"電纜壞了那個技術面我們大概就是中華電信他們跟速發部去處理那譬如說下禮拜要開的是有關於海纜涉及的海域我們到底要公告多大範圍作為禁錨的區域那這個就由交通部"},{"start":94.788,"end":122.474,"text":"所以那個區域反而是交通部不是海委會沒有我們是執法我們就都不是權責機關你們是按照他們規定區域多少我們提供修法的需求然後是主管部門必須去修區域他們規定了以後你們按照那個區域來做執法所以這一次就是今年二月的這個紅太五八號的事件那您也說你們監控了三天大概三十幾個小時"},{"start":123.954,"end":153.457,"text":"那现在最大问题不止三天不止有啦有啦因为它跨中间第一天后段跟第三天前段那所以你们因为很明显的就是等于是监控长达三十几个小时然后又广播七次然后都不听对都不听然后我们反而都已经监控了还让海揽被破坏所以这个就凸显出"},{"start":154.558,"end":173.514,"text":"我們到現場以後才破壞的警告了而且監控了但是沒辦法把他驅離沒有辦法去驅離取締就是因為法令不足所以我們很希望要重判他真的是不可原諒七次耶"},{"start":177.497,"end":196.736,"text":"對對對那通常警告不從我們應該就可能可以驅離甚至取締為什麼不做這個當時海象的問題是海象的問題就算有法令也還是沒辦法取締跟驅離可是我們是實在是奮勇泛濫因為海象"},{"start":197.296,"end":214.108,"text":"有时候我们硬顶都得顶出去但是连顶都顶不出去的时候这个就变成我们要监控本席想了解的是就算法令完备了可以取缔可以驱离也有可能因为海象我们没办法吗"},{"start":216.152,"end":244.678,"text":"我們基本上最近的這些案例我們基本上有的是事先會到譬如說鴻泰那另外譬如說順心99是我們追到那追到的案子不只順心99我們大多數都會追到那現在主要本席就想建議有沒有在考慮好像有蠻多學者專家有在考慮是不是要有一個海底電纜的安全專法"},{"start":246.966,"end":271.691,"text":"那來統合整個的海事電信國安以及基礎設施那也包含了你們他們這個違法的時候我們是要驅離取締因為我覺得太誇張了廣播七次然後監控三十幾個小時最後我們的電纜還是被破壞了那當然我們都覺得那個船隻很故意而且很有問題"},{"start":272.811,"end":288.876,"text":"您重判我們也認同但是我們自己的專法在哪裡這是一個問題第二個本席想要問我們都已經看到它一直在那個區塊然後我們自己也知道底下可能有海嵐"},{"start":289.912,"end":305.833,"text":"有電纜其實他自己也知道因為他那個海圖會顯示所以我們給人家知道那重點就是說我們有沒有水下無人機可以去確認譬如說他一直在那裡我也不知道他有沒有破壞那我們有沒有水下無人機"},{"start":306.274,"end":331.102,"text":"我們目前沒有我們目前的我們的大調查船有附帶一個水下無人載具將來可以調用它來用那這個東西最近行政院核定要讓我們買了但是還沒有製作出規格還沒有招商還沒有發包這個是我們調查船附帶有那到時候調查船就可以用來做這個事所以"},{"start":333.062,"end":354.238,"text":"那海巡還沒有 海巡還沒有 但是國海院有我剛剛講的這個是我們的國海院所以我海委會呢 已經有一個水下無人載具同樣都是海委會的而且他本來調查船這種時候也可以出去那所以這個海底電纜的安全專法有沒有考慮設專法"},{"start":355.979,"end":376.324,"text":"目前因為權責不在我們所以我這裡沒有在考慮這個方向我沒有提專法為什麼呢因為它其實涉及的都是非常專業的各部會的專業所以我們一方面有電信管理法那本席請教你海底電究竟是誰管轄誰是管轄者"},{"start":379.664,"end":401.479,"text":"她歸NCC跟速發部的部分比較多所以這個必須要明確明確還有誰可以進行相關的修正但是航安的部分是交通部那我們是執法我們都執法所以我們還是希望啦我們海底電可以說是我們台灣通訊的生命線千萬不能讓這個生命線長長斷長長斷這就是國安危機"},{"start":406.244,"end":412.596,"text":"接著還有一點點時間本席想要請教去年本席也有請教過主委"},{"start":413.513,"end":436.687,"text":"我們有在規劃無人機是空中的無人機那我們也看到原本預計的這個114年度就是今年要驗收的無人機突然出問題廠商無法履約你們又重新開始所以本席想請教你這個無人機第二代的無人機計劃"},{"start":438.848,"end":458.621,"text":"經費是兩億多嘛 兩億一千八百三十五萬七千元那現在你重新修正計畫 你的經費的部分我請署長說明好不好前面執行了一兩年 結果最後這個無疾而終因為我們要求的那個功能 它最後做不出來那我請署長說明好不好"},{"start":462.328,"end":486.633,"text":"這邊跟委員說明那我們那個計劃是112年開始到114要開始交今年要交市價那我們在整個測試的過程當中因為他沒有辦法達到我們想要需求滯空兩小時的這個時間所以這個部分經過所有的法律程序以後怎麼辦因為這個合約最後他沒辦法履約最後解約那按照解約的話我們經費是怎麼樣"},{"start":489.674,"end":505.59,"text":"原本兩億多嘛現在那廠商拿多少最後這個解約以後因為他還要做相關的也還沒提出來你們還不知道我們知道我們現在要重新起案的也是兩億多只有差了將近五千萬左右"},{"start":506.522,"end":532.455,"text":"所以用原來的錢再補五千萬然後我們重新四月嘛我看你們四月提修正計畫好那我們當然我們對就是海委會我們海巡這裡我們的配備我們一定支持那當然我們也希望這個國家的計畫我們不希望一再的落空所以這個部分我們大家一起加油好謝謝"},{"start":536.469,"end":536.834,"text":"好,我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：管主委好。今天很多委員都很關心我們海底電纜安全的問題，當然您也有表達海委會是執法單位，因為海底電纜所涵蓋的部會及層面都很廣，包含國安，包含通訊，您也有提到已經有在做跨部會的整合，請問跨部會的會議是誰來主導？誰是主責的單位？"],["管主任委員碧玲：看項目，如果是所有的法令規章各部會負責必須要修的部分，那就是政委會主持，負責法制的政委會主持。"],["徐委員欣瑩：法制的部分就是政委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，法制的部分。另外是譬如像事發一開始的時候，是由海委會來召集……"],["徐委員欣瑩：第一線……"],["管主任委員碧玲：譬如說下個禮拜要開的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：修電纜是誰？電纜壞了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果是電纜壞了，技術面大概就是由中華電信跟數發部去處理。譬如說下禮拜要開的是有關於海纜涉及的海域，我們到底要公告多大範圍作為禁錨的區域，這個就由交通部他們來主責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以那個區域反而是交通部……"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是交通部……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是海委會？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，我們是負責執法，我們不是權責機關，所以我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是按照他們規定區域多少……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們提供修法的需求，然後是主管部門必須去修。"],["徐委員欣瑩：區域他們規定了以後，你們按照那個區域來執法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：針對今年2月宏泰58號的事件，您也說你們監控了三天，大概三十幾個小時……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不只三天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為它跨中間，第一天後段跟第三天前段啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很明顯的是你們監控長達三十幾個小時，然後又廣播了七次，然後……"],["管主任委員碧玲：它都不聽。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，都不聽！然後我們都已經監控了，反而還讓海纜被破壞，所以這個就凸顯出……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們到現場以後才破壞的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，警告了而且監控了，但是沒辦法把它驅離，沒有辦法去驅離、取締，就是因為法令不足，因為沒有辦法……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我們很希望要重判，它真的是不可原諒啦！七次耶！"],["徐委員欣瑩：通常警告不從，我們可能就可以驅離，甚至取締，為什麼不做這個動作？"],["管主任委員碧玲：當時海象的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是海象的問題？"],["管主任委員碧玲：就是因為海象，這種季節……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就算有法令也還是沒辦法取締跟驅離？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們實在是奮勇犯難，因為海象有時候我們硬頂都得頂出去，但是連頂都頂不出去的時候，就變成我們要監控那麼久。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想了解的是，就算法令完備可以取締、可以驅離，也有可能因為海象我們沒辦法嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：關於最近的這些案例，基本上我們有的是事先會到，譬如說宏泰；另外譬如順興39是我們追到嘛！追到的案子不只是順興39，我們大多數都會追到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席主要是想建議，好像有蠻多學者專家有在考慮是不是要有一個海底電纜的安全專法？來統合整個海事、電信、國安以及基礎設施，也包含了在他們違法的時候我們要驅離、取締，因為我覺得太誇張了，已經廣播7次，然後監控三十幾個小時，最後我們的電纜還是被破壞了，我們都覺得那個船隻很故意，而且很有問題，要重判我們也認同，但是我們自己的專法在哪裡？這是一個問題。第二個，本席想要問，我們都已經看到它一直在那個區塊，然後我們自己也知道底下可能有海纜、有電纜……"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實它自己也知道，因為在海圖上都會顯示。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們給人家知道……"],["管主任委員碧玲：那個是公開的海圖。"],["徐委員欣瑩：重點就是我們有沒有水下無人機可以去確認，譬如說，它一直在那裡，我也不知道它有沒有破壞，那我們有沒有水下無人機這種設備？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那為什麼不考慮採購？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的大調查船有附帶一個水下無人載具，將來可以調過來用，最近行政院核定要讓我們買這個東西了，但是還沒有製作出規格、還沒有招商、還沒有發包。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以未來會買嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個是我們調查船有附帶，那到時候就可以徵用調查船來做這個事，那海巡還沒有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可不可以針對我的問題回答？現在行政院已經核定，所以未來你們會買？"],["管主任委員碧玲：海巡還沒有，但是國海院有，我剛剛講的是我們的國海院，所以海委會已經有一個水下無人載具。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們還是可以調用，因為同樣都是海委會的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：可以，而且調查船本來在這種時候也可以出去。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以針對海底電纜的安全有沒有考慮設專法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前因為權責不在我們，所以我這裡沒有在考慮這個方向。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你剛剛有講法令方面是這樣，那你也沒提議嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有提專法，為什麼呢？因為它其實涉及的都是各部會的專業，是非常專業的，我們一方面有電信管理法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那本席請教你，海底電纜究竟是由誰管轄？誰是管轄者？"],["管主任委員碧玲：它歸NCC跟數發部的部分比較多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個必須要明確規定，誰可以進行相關的蒐證？"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是航安的部分是交通部，那我們是執法，我們都是執法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為海底電纜可以說是我們臺灣通訊的生命線，所以千萬不能讓這個生命線常常斷掉，如果常常斷掉，這就是國安危機。","好，我還有一點點時間，本席想要請教一個問題，去年本席也有請教過主委，我們有在規劃無人機，就是空中的無人機，那我們也看到，原本預計在114年度也就是今年要驗收的無人機突然出問題，廠商無法履約，你們又重新開始，所以本席想請教主委，你這個第二代無人機計畫的經費是2億1,835萬7,000元，現在你重新修正計畫，那經費的部分……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我請署長說明好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：前面執行了一、二年，結果最後卻無疾而終。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為對我們所要求的那個功能，他最後做不出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那最後這個經費是怎麼樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我請署長來說明。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員說明，我們那個計畫是112年開始，在114年要開始交，今年要交4架，在整個測試的過程當中，因為它沒有辦法達到我們滯空兩小時的這個需求，所以在經過所有的法律程序以後就……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣要怎麼辦？對這個合約最後它沒辦法履約了。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：對，就解約。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後解約了，那我們的經費是怎麼樣？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：我們重新再……"],["徐委員欣瑩：原本是二億多，在這個解約以後，最後廠商拿了多少？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：在解約以後，因為它還要做相關的賠償……"],["徐委員欣瑩：也還沒提出來，你們還不知道？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：我們知道，我們現在要重新啟案的也是二億多，只有差了將近5,000萬左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是用原來的錢？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：對，用原來的錢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：要再補5,000萬……"],["張副主任委員忠龍：重新開啟計畫。"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後重新開始，我看你們在4月提修正計畫。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們對海委會、海巡的配備一定支持，當然我們也不希望國家的計畫一再的落空，所以對這個部分我們大家一起加油，謝謝。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，我們請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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也就是大家非常的努力嘛然後你這個打狗宣言其實也跟本席"},{"start":146.311,"end":169.87,"text":"當時我們在審海洋保育法的時候我非常堅持的核心理念所以我們可以說是創紀錄的把這個少數否決權放進來所以因此我們有要求要求六個月之內要在原住民地區各縣市辦理至少三場次的相關法案的說明會"},{"start":170.951,"end":200.531,"text":"並且也邀請我們族人參與然後積極來溝通嘛對不對然後讓我們的族人了解一下這個法的利弊得失還有後續的會有影響請問一下現在我們這個場是辦理的怎麼樣我們辦完了五場然後執法的部分你知道參與的人數有多少嗎然後執法的人數我們也都陸陸續續有做你知道有多少人參加嗎這三場總共是一百多人那詳細的情形我是不是請署長來說明好可以"},{"start":202.812,"end":228.086,"text":"為什麼這麼少人我們當時解讀的這個然後也跟溝通的過程所以當時的認定是沒有我現在問你為什麼那麼少人我們基本上在地所有的部落我們其實都有發你們進入到部落了嗎然後你們去你們去這個這個這個開展的這個座談會是在禮拜幾所以其實問題蠻大的所以呢其實我也看到了我們的主任他有在這個"},{"start":228.886,"end":245.923,"text":"雖然105個人參加他有提出幾個疑慮第一個疑慮就是要求你們要到部落再去召開說明會 對吧然後還有誤犯的時候怎麼樣來減輕這樣的機制還有就是原住民文化記憶之間跟我們這個法律的競合問題還有"},{"start":247.705,"end":274.815,"text":"批戶區劃設的原住民代表的比例其實呢這些都是我們在修這個癌包法的時候本席非常堅持的立場那請問一下我們有第8條第19條第26條對不對好這個我就不再因為時間的關係我就不再說明了那這這三條當中我們有講到非常多的問題就是你的配套執法請問一下配套執法什麼時候會出來是"},{"start":276.255,"end":296.888,"text":"也跟委員這邊說明一下目前我們所有的14個執法應該現在有8個已經預告完成了那我剛剛講的第8條第19條第26條這跟原住民都有相關的問題而且也跟你們剛剛主委所說的打狗宣言的這個不謀而合我們的理念是不謀而合是跟委員說明第26條就是針對如果他之後有任何的"},{"start":301.171,"end":327.928,"text":"不OK受罰的他必須要受獎習課程那這是第26條那目前這個執法已經預告完成然後再做後面的法制作業有嗎有這三條有嗎第8條第19條第26條有嗎第19條是獎勵的部分那獎勵的部分基本上是我們已經有這個獎勵辦法已經完成已經是在會內作業那第26條呢保育獎期的課程要納入原住民族知識還有原住民族生物多樣性的課程呢"},{"start":328.268,"end":343.231,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是這個的執法是已經預告完成然後現在在做法沒有我現在跟你問你的是第19條有26條內容是什麼內容有包含他必須要含原住民相關的這個知識跟原住民相關的內容"},{"start":343.692,"end":371.314,"text":"那你們該怎麼做他如果受罰之後他基本上有不同的課程要上那我們在去年的十月也開始起了一個標案就是針對這些的課程開始要編這些的教材那目前的規劃是他會有兩個小時的教材四個小時的教材跟八個小時的教材那裡面都有含教材怎麼來呃先跟呃跟委員說明是這些教材現在在走的過程裡面他有涉及原住民相關的這個部分我們會請原住民的呃專家老師跟部落的人幫我們看過那因為是去年十月"},{"start":371.394,"end":397.869,"text":"你覺得現在原民會有建立一個知識體系嗎有 這個也會納在這個的這個標案他們去參考的裡面那特別針對原住民用海的部分我們今年也有一個計畫是在調查整個東海岸的原住民的傳統用海所以它等於是從那個資料庫裡面它有理論的知識然後再透過今年的這個原住民用海的這個調查它會有各種不同的案例所以這些都會納在這個因為時間的關係在這邊我有三個強烈的要求好不好 主委您"},{"start":398.869,"end":425.763,"text":"第一個打狗宣言既然強調的是傳統生態知識我們希望你們拿出具體的規劃、期程還有做法第二個海洋保育法裡面的國際交流補助你們應該要編列專門的經費來支持族人怎麼樣去催廣跟交流傳統生態知識第三個海洋保育法裡面原住民知識跟原住民族生養多樣性的課程"},{"start":426.343,"end":448.517,"text":"我認為你們應該要結合原住民族知識體系也就是原民會現在其實已經在建立了必須要由海委會教育部還有原民會你們來進行這個所謂的橫向平台要真正來落實合作跟對話可不可以我們把備案做好因為現在委外在研究我們備案出來以後跨部會會來協調"},{"start":450.678,"end":465.629,"text":"最後我要提醒主委蔡總統她在105年的時候她跟原住民道歉她曾經承諾過要推動原住民的自治要推動原住民的土地跟海洋海域法然後轉型政業要納入原住民可是到現在全部都飄跳"},{"start":466.509,"end":493.345,"text":"跳票了所以我在想既然剛剛主委您也非常贊同而且你們也簽署了這個所謂的打狗宣言要強調傳統知識保障跟維護我們真的希望拿出具體的作為然後以上可能還沒有辦法具體講述的部分我也請相關的業務同仁能夠到我的辦公室來我們到一定的進度有內容的時候我們就跟委員報告好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時47分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：主委早。4月14號海委會的國家海洋研究院還有中山大學主辦的「2025年國際太平洋海洋教育者網絡國際研討會」，你們邀請了日本、加拿大、美國及澳洲等地的學者，針對「傳統生態知識視角下的海洋素養對話：來自亞太的聲音」議題進行探討，最後閉幕的時候你們還發布了一個打狗宣言，打狗宣言的重要內容包含：優先考量傳統生態知識系統，並且要保障傳統族群的權利；各國要建立制度框架，來保護並且來支持傳統生態知識的社群權利；在海洋保育中，傳統生態知識要納入政策制定的核心要素；促進海洋科學家跟社區居民的深度合作；海洋科學研究資金優先支持社群參與；建立國際平臺。有七大承諾，很多，沒有錯吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問主委，你有共同連署了嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們的連署主要以他們的成員為主，我們有象徵性的連署，但是那個連署書沒有要讓他們帶去聯合國，帶去聯合國倡議的部分是他們自己社群的人才有資格做連署，而我們有象徵性的連署。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所謂象徵性也就是說，海委會你們願意承諾海洋政策會往這個方向來進展，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我在這個會中也去分享了我們已經有做的部分，針對我們的海保法可以把原住民的諮商同意權放進去、可以把原住民加漁民成為少數有否決權，他們對於這兩點印象非常的深刻，因為這就代表著我們原住民族傳統的海洋智慧、傳統的生態知識是被我們引進到決策的程序，這一點他們覺得我們做得很好。"],["高金委員素梅：對，也就是大家非常的努力，這個打狗宣言其實也是當時我們在審海洋保育法的時候，本席非常堅持的核心理念，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以我們可以說是創紀錄的把少數否決權放進來。"],["高金委員素梅：因此，我們有要求六個月之內要在原住民地區各縣市辦理至少3場次的相關法案的說明會，並且邀請我們族人參與，然後積極來溝通，讓我們的族人了解一下這個法的利弊得失，還有後續會有的影響。請問一下，現在這個場次辦理的怎麼樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們辦完了5場，然後子法的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：你知道參與的人數有多少嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：然後子法的部分我們也都陸陸續續有做……"],["高金委員素梅：你知道這3場有多少人參加嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：總共是一百多人，詳細的情形我是不是請署長來說明？"],["高金委員素梅：可以。"],["陸署長曉筠：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼這麼少人？"],["陸署長曉筠：委員，我們當時解讀跟溝通的過程，所以當時的認定是……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我現在問你的是為什麼那麼少人？"],["陸署長曉筠：我們基本上在地所有的部落都有發。"],["高金委員素梅：你們進入到部落了嗎？你們去舉行座談會是在禮拜幾？所以其實問題蠻大的，雖然是105個人參加，我也看到了我們的族人有提出幾個疑慮，第一個疑慮就是要求你們要到部落再去召開說明會，對吧？還有誤犯的時候怎麼樣減輕的機制，以及原住民文化祭儀跟這個法律之間的競合問題，和庇護區劃設的原住民代表的比例，其實這些都是我們在修海保法的時候本席非常堅持的立場。請問一下，我們有第八條、第十九條、第二十六條，因為時間的關係，我就不再說明，這3條當中我們有講到非常多的問題，就是你的配套子法，請問一下配套子法什麼時候會出來？"],["陸署長曉筠：也跟委員說明一下，我們所有的14個子法，現在有8個已經預告完成了。"],["高金委員素梅：我剛剛講的第八條、第十九條、第二十六條跟原住民都有相關，而且也跟剛剛主委所說的打狗宣言不謀而合，我們的理念是不謀而合。"],["陸署長曉筠：跟委員說明，第二十六條是針對如果他之後有任何的不OK要受罰的，他必須要受講習課程，這是第二十六條的規定，目前這個子法已經預告完成，現在在進行後面的法制作業……"],["高金委員素梅：有嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：有，這部分……"],["高金委員素梅：這三條有嗎？第八條、第十九條、第二十六條有嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：第十九條是獎勵的部分，針對獎勵的部分，基本上我們的獎勵辦法已經完成，已經在會內作業。"],["高金委員素梅：第二十六條呢？"],["陸署長曉筠：第二十六條目前……"],["高金委員素梅：保育講習要納入原住民族知識以及原住民族生物多樣性的課程呢？"],["陸署長曉筠：跟委員說明一下，這項子法已經預告完成，現在正在進行法制作業。"],["高金委員素梅：我現在問你的是第十九條……"],["陸署長曉筠：有，第二十六條……"],["高金委員素梅：內容是什麼？"],["陸署長曉筠：內容包含它必須要含原住民相關的知識以及原住民相關的內容，就是如果……"],["高金委員素梅：那你們該怎麼做？"],["陸署長曉筠：他如果受罰之後，基本上他有不同的課程要上，我們在去年10月也開始起了一個標案，就是針對這些課程要開始編相關教材，目前的規劃是它會有2個小時的教材、4個小時的教材和8個小時的教材，裡面都有含……"],["高金委員素梅：教材怎麼來？"],["陸署長曉筠：跟委員說明，這些教材在編的過程裡面，如果有涉及原住民相關的部分，我們會請原住民的專家、老師跟部落的人幫我們看過，因為是去年10月起的案子……"],["高金委員素梅：你知道現在原民會有建立一個知識體系嗎？"],["陸署長曉筠：有，這個也會納在這個標案裡面讓他們去參考，特別針對原住民用海的部分，我們今年也有一個計畫是在調查整個東海岸原住民的傳統用海，等於是在那個資料庫裡面有理論的知識，然後再透過今年的原住民用海調查，會有各種不同的案例，所以這些都會納在一般的課程裡面，我們再把詳細的資料跟委員報告。"],["高金委員素梅：因為時間的關係，在這邊我有三個強烈的要求，請主委您聽一下：第一個，打狗宣言既然強調的是傳統生態知識，我們希望你們拿出具體的規劃、期程及做法……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們再跟委員報告。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個，針對海洋保育法裡面的國際交流補助，你們應該要編列專門的經費來支持族人去推廣及交流傳統生態知識。第三個，有關海洋保育法裡面原住民知識跟原住民族生物多樣性的課程，我認為你們應該要結合原住民族知識體系，也就是原民會現在其實已經在建立了，必須要由海委會、教育部及原民會來進行所謂的橫向平臺，要真正落實合作跟對話，這三項可不可以？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會把備案做好，因為現在委外在研究，等備案出來以後會進行跨部會協調。"],["高金委員素梅：最後我要提醒主委，蔡總統在105年的時候跟原住民道歉，他曾經承諾過要推動原住民自治、要推動原住民族土地及海域法，然後轉型正義要納入原住民，可是現在全部都跳票了，所以我在想既然剛剛主委您也非常贊同，而且你們也簽署了所謂的打狗宣言，要強調傳統知識保障跟維護，我們真的希望你們拿出具體的作為。以上可能還沒有辦法具體講述的部分，也請相關的業務同仁能夠到我的辦公室來，再來一起討論好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，到一定的進度、有內容的時候，我們就跟委員報告。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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我們都已經開始 開過很多會可是剛剛講的嘛 針對要用哪一種方式哪一種方法好像都還在討論中嘛這個是事實就已經發生了三期的這個電纜的這個事故啦所以我是覺得應該是要加快加快這樣子的一個評估的一個階段要怎麼來做喔因為這個我想這個攸關我們整個的這個數位的這個生命線的一個相關的訊息啊"},{"start":137.289,"end":153.661,"text":"相關的守護的途徑非常多元 包括業主中華電信本身也都在精進 什麼樣的權責什麼樣的技術配屬在什麼樣的部門也都有分工"},{"start":154.361,"end":167.327,"text":"那以海巡來講的話我們目前水下或者是水面的無人載具的部分我們目前的進度就是我們開始在規劃研議我們也開過了研討會但是空中我們會比較成熟那請問要研議多久的時間才會比較具體的這個"},{"start":175.07,"end":194.391,"text":"就是針對我們3000公尺以下的這個海域的偵測跟干擾人力這樣子的一個派巡設備如果很具體的要回答這個問題的話有一個指標就是說我們今年來不來得及提出從明年開始的中長期計畫最快最快"},{"start":195.452,"end":204.699,"text":"我們明年開始的中長期計劃今年來不來得及提出來那這個部分我們還不是那麼有把握我們用情監偵系統我們用中華電信的智慧監控系統跟港港局的智慧航安系統跟海巡署的情監偵系統我們三道防線"},{"start":219.409,"end":224.873,"text":"所以我們既抓到了順興99我們也抓到了宏泰56順興沒有進來是因為那個時候它還不是關鍵基礎設施所以它的進港程序就比較會受到現有制度的影響我們目前應該要探討的是怎麼不是只有我們偵測是未來要怎麼去預防這樣的一個狀況發生"},{"start":245.128,"end":260.163,"text":"一旦台北電纜被切斷之後因為預防所以才抓得到你要再恢復要花更久的時間跟更久的精力跟金錢所以各位委員報告我們關心是對的你一定要事先預防所以事先預防的部分呢也是因為我們事先預防"},{"start":261.144,"end":280.331,"text":"所以我希望能够加快这个时辰还没有断我们就在现场那是不是可以加快这个时辰好不好刚刚讲这个言语的时辰然后另外就是刚刚提到就是说我们如果发现这个可疑传播靠近敏感海揽区域的时候我们的线上巡逻舰艇能够几个小时到达现场"},{"start":281.035,"end":304.869,"text":"我們要看第一個我們要看第一個我們的距離是多遠然後第二個涉及當時的海象跟委員報告就是鴻泰我們監控了他三天那海象一可以我們馬上就去了那如果海象惡劣的狀況之下呢會不會就束手無策海象也不會束手無策那會用什麼方式因為如果是"},{"start":305.649,"end":327.03,"text":"如果是那個我們用雷達還是監控著他如果真的是發生斷纜的時候我們還是要去追現在我們這個海巡署這邊是不是有全天候的輪班跟快速應變的機制呢有我們都有都有整個機制我們可以請請海巡的同仁來來做詳細的說如果有需要的話"},{"start":327.611,"end":354.334,"text":"好那是不是可以因為時間關係是不是這個是不是會後再把詳細的資料送到辦公室好嗎跟委員先補充說明一下就是我們現在在六大增進區每一天都固定有一艘大艦在線上那另外在12海浬內我們固定都有每一個海巡隊都有兩艘巡防機在線上所以我們第一時間就可以掌握海面所有的目標那剛剛委員有特別提示到就是說我們多少時間會到那取決於我們距離通報點多遠"},{"start":355.535,"end":375.287,"text":"那目前我們把海嵐那個區域一接收到通報之後你們就會馬上過去那我們現在是把那個海嵐的區域列為我們的巡查的重點之一所以虹台為什麼那麼快到是因為我們就在現場那剛剛您提到的海嵐區域是不是已經被列為受保護的海域那台灣是不是有這個海嵐防衛地圖呢"},{"start":377.308,"end":392.835,"text":"就是我們現在海嵐區在電子地圖電子海圖上面都有公告都有公布那中華電信它也有一個這個海嵐防衛地圖有有有那中華電信它對於每個海嵐都有一個告警設置就是Source的一個系統所以只要船舶"},{"start":394.608,"end":420.64,"text":"超過20公尺然後航速低於5節然後接近海南1公里它這個系統就會自動告急那我們同時也會收到這個告急我想海底電纜被破壞會使台灣的基礎建設可能會跟經濟的運作會造成長期的壓力那其實也非常需要海委會跟海巡署大家強藉乎那當然如果有需要相對應的經費不管是人啊就是需要加人要造船需要相關的加班費"},{"start":422.401,"end":431.044,"text":"我想 海委會也可以積極地來去向我們的財政跟儲計單位爭取只要預算送來立法院 我們一定會全力支持這樣可以嗎 主委"},{"start":433.343,"end":457.72,"text":"我們就是遇到今年有兩艘船不能不能交船的困難因為今年的預算刪減的結果就造成了這個困境如果委員能夠支持我們就是希望未來不要再有發生這樣的狀況謝謝委員剛剛我已經提過就是說只要有需要相關的經費其實你們提出來跟財主還有跟這個主計單位提出那再送到立法院來我們一定會全力支持"},{"start":458.3,"end":478.889,"text":"那當然因為海巡弟兄說實在相對非常的辛苦啦所以我也希望說而且他們面臨其實很多都是高危險這個高壓力的所以說我想這個部分也希望說我們海委會這邊能夠針對海巡署的部分我們多給他們一些相關的經費那需要我們立法院來支持的我們一定會全力協助謝謝主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":475,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時38分）謝謝主席，請管碧玲管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委好。今天針對海委會的報告，我們大家其實都很關注，我們臺灣身處印太的前線，是地緣政治的焦點，也是數位戰爭的第一線，所以海底電纜就像是數位生命線的保護，我想已經不單純只是商業問題，而是攸關國家戰略的問題。今年1月短短3週內臺灣就發生了3起海底電纜的事故，除了順興39號之外，另外臺澎3號電纜更是被宏泰貨輪斷纜，另外，在上個月中國大陸也公開展示一種新型的海底電纜切割機，號稱它可以深入4,000公尺海底，切斷最堅硬的裝甲電纜。請問主委，臺灣目前的海巡設備是否具備對3,000公尺以下的海域偵測與干擾能力？對於水下無人設備進行電纜的破壞作用，海委會是不是已經有跨部會的應對計畫？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心，有關於水下偵測的部分，目前我們還屬於規劃的階段。"],["許委員宇甄：那大概什麼時候可以規劃好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：可能沒有辦法非常快，因為涉及……"],["許委員宇甄：比如有沒有一個時程的規劃？"],["管主任委員碧玲：涉及我們有沒有要國產化，如果有的話，那國內現在發展進度的掌握，基本上我們都在……"],["許委員宇甄：所以依主委現在的回答，其實等於還沒開始？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，我們都已經開始，開過很多會。"],["許委員宇甄：雖然開過很多會，可是剛剛講針對要用哪一種方式、哪一種方法，好像都還在討論中。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是事實。"],["許委員宇甄：可是我們光1月就已經發生了3起電纜事故，所以我覺得應該要加快評估，看要怎麼來做，因為這攸關我們整個數位生命線。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，相關的守護途徑非常多元，包括業主中華電信本身，他們也都在精進，那什麼樣的權責、什麼樣的技術、配屬在什麼樣的部門也都有分工，以海巡來講，目前水下或水面的無人載具，我們的進度就是開始在規劃研議，我們也開過了研討會。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛主委講開始在規劃研議……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是空中部分我們會比較成熟。"],["許委員宇甄：那請問要研議多久的時間，針對3,000公尺以下海域的偵測跟干擾能力這樣的海巡設備？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，以目前的進度來講，如果要很具體回答這個問題，有一個指標，就是我們今年來不來得及提出從明年開始的中長期計畫。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，最快、最快是明年？"],["管主任委員碧玲：就是「從明年開始的中長期計畫」今年來不來得及提出來，這個部分我們還不是那麼有把握。"],["許委員宇甄：目前遇到這樣的狀況的時候，海巡署、海委會可以怎麼來處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們用中華電信的智慧監控系統、航港局的智慧航安系統跟海巡署的情監偵系統，三道防線……"],["許委員宇甄：那偵測完之後有什麼防護的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我們既抓到了順興39，我們也抓到了宏泰58，順興沒有進來是因為那個時候它還不是關鍵基礎設施，所以它的進港程序就比較會受到現有制度的影響。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想我們目前應該要探討的不是只有偵測，是未來要怎麼去預防這樣的狀況發生，因為一旦海底電纜被切斷之後……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都預防了，因為預防所以才抓得到。"],["許委員宇甄：基本上你要再恢復要花更久的時間、更久的精力跟金錢。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對、對、對，所以跟委員報告，委員關心的是對的，一定要事先預防，也是因為我們事先預防，所以宏泰還沒有斷之前我們就在現場了。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我希望能夠加快這個時程可以嗎？是不是可以加快這個研議的時程？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們會來加快。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，剛剛提到我們如果發現可疑船舶靠近敏感海纜區域的時候，我們的線上巡邏艦艇能夠幾個小時到達現場？"],["管主任委員碧玲：第一個，我們要看我們的距離是多遠；第二個，涉及當時的海象。跟委員報告，例如宏泰，我們監控了它3天，海象一可以，我們馬上就去了，所以還沒有斷，我們就在了。"],["許委員宇甄：那如果是海象惡劣的狀況之下呢？會不會就束手無策呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：也不會束手無策。"],["許委員宇甄：那會用什麼方式？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為我們用雷達還是監控著它，如果真的發生斷纜的時候，我們還是要去抓回來。"],["許委員宇甄：現在海巡署是不是有全天候的輪班跟快速應變的機制呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，我們都有整個機制，如果委員有需要的話，我們可以請海巡的同仁來做詳細的說明。"],["許委員宇甄：好，因為時間關係，會後再把詳細的資料送到辦公室好嗎？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員先補充說明一下，我們現在在六大偵巡區每一天都固定有1艘大艦在線上，另外在12浬內固定每一個海巡隊都有2艘巡防艇在線上，所以我們第一時間就可以掌握海面所有的目標。剛剛委員有特別提示到我們多少時間會到？那取決於我們距離通報點多遠，目前我們把海纜那個區域……"],["許委員宇甄：一接到通報之後，你們就會馬上過去？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：對，我們現在是把有海纜的區域列為我們巡查的重點之一，所以宏泰那時候為什麼那麼快到，是因為我們就在現場。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛您提到的海纜區域是不是已經被列為受保護的海域？臺灣是不是有海纜防衛地圖呢？這個國際間都已經有了。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，現在我們海纜區在電子地圖、電子海圖上面都有公告、都有公布。"],["許委員宇甄：那我們有嗎？我們是不是有這個海纜防衛地圖？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：有，中華電信對於每個海纜都有一個告警設施，就是SAWS系統，所以只要船舶超過20公尺，航速低於5節，然後接近海纜1公里，這個系統就會自動告警，我們同時也會收到這個告警。"],["許委員宇甄：我想海底電纜被破壞可能會使臺灣的基礎建設跟經濟的運作造成長期的壓力，也非常需要海委會跟海巡署大家加強戒護，當然如果有需要相對應的經費，不管是人，需要加人、要造船，需要相關的加班費，我想海委會也可以積極的去向財政跟主計單位爭取，只要預算送來立法院，我們一定會全力支持，這樣可以嗎？主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們就是遇到今年有2艘船不能交船的困難，因為今年預算刪減的結果就造成了這個困境，如果委員能夠支持，我們就是希望未來不要再發生這樣的狀況，謝謝委員。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛我已經提過，只要需要相關的經費，其實你們跟財政還有主計單位提出，再送到立法院來，我們一定會全力支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實委員會很支持我們，現在就是委員會只刪了1,500萬，但是到院會就刪到10億……"],["許委員宇甄：因為海巡弟兄說實在相對非常的辛苦，而且他們面臨的很多都是高危險、高壓力的，所以這個部分也希望海委會能夠針對海巡署的部分多給他們一些相關的經費，需要我們立法院來支持的，我們一定會全力協助，謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["主席：鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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是有沒有預計什麼時候會把這個修法跟妳剛剛講的分級制度也許都是一個可以改善的狀況因為其實我們是執法單位業務主管不是我們法不是我們修是我們去你們去提出需求嘛所以你們在提出需求現在有沒有人給你阻力就是他們不想做啊麻煩這個怎麼了 會嗎因為傳播法修法我們其實講很久我們當然希望越快越好所以那個製造阻力的單位是誰我們來幫忙溝通一下我跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":242.081,"end":269.92,"text":"這個修法為什麼會那麼困難因為它涉及一修法的時候它適用的範圍是包括所有的漁民那這個部分的話溝通的時間就會比較長時間成本就會比較高你剛剛都講時間很長你總要有一個比如說目標吧比如說我們半年之內我要整合完初步的意見然後刑事初步的法條然後怎麼樣什麼時候要送到行政院來核定再進到立法院來審查你們現在有這個時間表嗎"},{"start":272.021,"end":291.746,"text":"我們不是主管機關沒辦法定時間表但是以我們來講我們就是很積極的在溝通我們積極的在溝通另外一個是預先預防的一個機制啦就是如果至少雖然你沒有辦法第一時間判斷海嵐發生斷裂的地點在哪裡對不對但海嵐的位置總是固定的嘛"},{"start":292.335,"end":308.781,"text":"那現在看起來以海委會公布的一些新聞等等也好大概就是有些把毛放下去然後跑嘛然後毛會把海欄勾斷嘛對不對現在看起來這個行為看起來是長這個樣子那有沒有什麼比如說禁毛區啊或怎麼樣一些設置的一些事前預防的機制海委會有沒有一些準備呢"},{"start":309.361,"end":323.613,"text":"海南區作為禁錨區是會需要經過公告去界定它的範圍經過這兩次事件以後呢範圍應該要如何重新公告跟法定有在考慮"},{"start":325.015,"end":348.115,"text":"那這一部分應該會比修傳播法稍微簡單一點吧這個部分比較快 下個禮拜會開會下個禮拜會開會 什麼時候會有進到公告的程序呢會處理這個 這個都是航港局的權責我想不管是修傳播法也好 或者是你公告競跑局或者說你剛講的一些分級等等你總要有一些事前預防跟可以先處理的機制我們現在已經都在事前預防 是"},{"start":349.337,"end":372.888,"text":"這個強度要出來嘛你才能避免就這樣子奇怪的事情在發生所以我們會抓到紅太就是因為他還沒斷的時候我們已經去到他的我們要確定的是接下來類似這樣的事情你可以有預前掌握嘛或者是預防其實除了紅太我們後續還抓了抓了兩次沒關係你後續的一些成果我們有一個案喔委員我們有一個案是同時抓到兩艘沒關係你後續有一些成果跟你現行的機制跟"},{"start":373.408,"end":393.511,"text":"有不足之處跟你遇到的困難你在會後你整理個詳細的報告我都已經很明確的講就是說要預防這樣的事情其實大家都會覺得說這個為了海南的穩定性啊為了國家安全大家會願意去支持那主力在哪裡你總要講出來嘛大家才能夠趕快的溝通啊搞不好大家可以一起把這個事情加速嘛所以你把遇到的障礙跟困難跟預計的時間會後整理一份資料"},{"start":393.971,"end":410.775,"text":"好最後一分鐘我一定要問現在大家都真正在去執行這些事情當然就是辛苦了海巡的弟兄嘛我們修正你們警察人員人事條例保障退休人員的權益但限職人員也很重要啊現在大家越來越多人去講因為實務上以台海兩岸的特殊狀況來講海巡常常是在第一線嘛"},{"start":411.415,"end":440.735,"text":"有的時候拍那個貢獻的照片海軍拍得比海軍清楚對不對可是最近現在大家在講我們要加強國防戰力我們要改善志願役弟兄的待遇增加他的戰鬥佳績海軍都增加了那請問我們海巡署的弟兄他們算警職人員嘛他們警職人員這些待遇他們做的事情其實跟海軍沒什麼兩樣甚至大家都講現在海軍要變成所謂的第二海軍了那他們做的事情竟然沒有什麼兩樣而且甚至風險跟前線變化都更多那請問海軍的限職人員的待遇應不應該提升"},{"start":441.835,"end":469.291,"text":"警職的部分因為海巡就是軍警文三種身份那軍職的話我們隨著軍職的調升都有做相當的配合軍職就跟著這個軍職的部分走絕大部分現在是警職的部分那警職的部分其實這幾年也陸陸續續有調升一些那晚近我們也在爭取一兩項那能不能容委員就是在我這裡先先不去"},{"start":470.311,"end":488.682,"text":"沒關係你詳細資料跟你的方向我一樣會給你時間來做處理但是我只是要藉這樣的機會來提醒我們在爭取然後有十分得到人事部門的了解沒關係你都整理好一樣跟剛剛一樣把它整理好因為關鍵是你現在在執行的狀況甚至第一線有些警職人員甚至文職人員也要到第一線去處理嘛"},{"start":489.542,"end":506.237,"text":"那你不要說大家是同工但不同酬的狀況然後去影響基層的士氣所以我們講我們支持海巡支持軍警等等都是不分退休還是限職都應該要合理的提升這是我們的立場所以如果我是希望海委會這邊也要很積極嘛如果說軍事人員都提升了你應該要比照嘛"},{"start":506.397,"end":532.781,"text":"各位委員報告我一面非常積極的在爭取一面呢我勧勉勉勵我的同仁我們國家的責任扛在身上讓他們信賴長官心情不要浮動那當然嘛那我一面有安撫這個事情也都我們署長也都到第一現場這個都是你們本來就應該做的事情嗎對 都在安定我今天特別會提這個事就是因為大家士氣高昂"},{"start":532.981,"end":553.651,"text":"我特別會提醒這些事情就是因為現在國防外交委員會等他們已經開始在討論軍人待遇的提升嘛那不要出現落差影響士氣嘛所以我覺得海軍這件事要去做準備好不好所以你把相關的一樣你的規劃跟你的接下來的節奏跟也許會遇到的障礙你一樣先整理嘛我們大家都一起來協助溝通然後幫海軍弟兄爭取更好的待遇這樣可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了好我們請區域政委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":400,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時29分）謝謝主席，請管主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。今天先從海底電纜的事件開始探討，今年國內有4次的海底電纜斷裂的事件，首先是1月3日基隆外海的國際海纜被「順興39」拖斷，其次是1月15日跟1月22日臺馬二號、三號，後來經海委會的查證結果，應該是自然劣化造成斷裂，以及2月25日「臺澎三號」海纜遭中國權宜輪「宏泰58」拖斷。我想從這幾個事件裡討論幾件事情，就1月3日基隆外海國際海纜斷裂事件來講，其實當天7時45分就發生海纜斷裂的狀況，海巡到中午12時40分左右才接到中華電信的通報、才針對順興號做攔查，這個中間的時間好像長了一些，你們彼此之間、政府之間跨部通報的時機跟跨部的協調是不是應該有一些改善的空間，你們海委會做了哪些努力？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們經過國安程序之後，有稍微縮短時間，但是之前時間比較長倒也不是疏忽或者是疏失，最主要是我們判斷到什麼階段的問題。跟委員報告，我們海巡會遇到一種狀況，就是第一次判斷出來的點位，我們的船去了，結果告訴我們說：不對、不對，在另一個點位。中間會差……"],["牛委員煦庭：其實距離很遠，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：差三、四十浬。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你們判斷點位的資料來源，也是來自於中華電信？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是中華電信，其實給他們時間做精確的判斷是有必要。但如果我們判斷是故意行為的可能性很高的時候，我們海巡也願意負擔這種成本，像剛剛委員提到的這幾次當中，我們就有出去，結果通報點位不對又回來的。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，這有兩個問題，第一個是海纜的所有者，基本上由中華電信來管理，它有沒有辦法第一時間精準通報資料，這個需要你們政府跨部加強溝通跟協調，這個時間總是要縮短；第二個是你們有沒有辦法第一時間掌握相關船舶的位置跟狀況？"],["管主任委員碧玲：宏泰就是我們事先就監控它監控了三天。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，那是事先，我現在就先講順興這件事，還有它衍生出來的一些問題。以順興號來講，就是它可能會關掉AIS或想辦法規避這件事情，就本席的了解，船舶法應該是要規定，就是理論上應該要開啟AIS系統，但如果沒有開啟，好像也沒有罰則，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那這個部分是不是應該要做一些修正跟加強管控呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：船舶法這一次研議的內容也包含這一點，還包括變換或它開了又關、開了又關。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯嘛，它可能有意規避、有奇怪的行為嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們現在先分級，我們有個黑名單，在分級的指標裡面就有你是不是開了又關、開了又關，你是不是……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天要問這個問題其實重點在船舶法到底什麼時候要修法，政府現在有沒有打算要針對這部分做規制的調整？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們持續在跨部會開會協調之中。"],["牛委員煦庭：那有沒有一些比如時間進度上的安排？因為我覺得看起來這個事情是國安危機嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：4月22號要開第二次會議。"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有預計什麼時候會把這個修法跟你剛剛講的分級制度提出來？也許都是一個可以改善的狀況。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為我們是執法單位，業務主管不是我們，法不是我們修，是我們去要求……"],["牛委員煦庭：是你們去提出需求嘛，所以在你們提出需求的時候，有沒有人給你阻力？就是他們不想做或覺得麻煩怎麼怎麼的，會嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們當然希望越快越好，因為船舶法修法其實我們講很久了。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以那個製造阻力的單位是誰？我們來幫忙溝通一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我跟委員報告，這個修法為什麼會那麼困難呢？因為它一涉及修法的時候，適用的範圍包括所有的漁民，這個部分溝通的時間就會比較長，時間成本就會比較高。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你剛剛講時間很長嘛……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我們都能體諒。"],["牛委員煦庭：你總要有一個比如目標吧？比如半年之內要整合完初步的意見，然後形成初步的法條，然後什麼時候要送到行政院核定，再送到立法院審查，你們現在有這個時間表嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不是主管機關，沒辦法訂時間表，但是以我們來講……"],["牛委員煦庭：但是就你可以透露的就是阻力很大就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們就是很積極的在溝通。"],["牛委員煦庭：另外一個是事先預防的機制，雖然你沒有辦法第一時間判斷海纜發生斷裂的地點在哪裡，但海纜的位置總是固定的嘛，現在看起來以海委會發布的新聞等等也好，大概就是有些船隻把錨放下去然後跑，然後錨會把海纜勾斷，現在看起來是這樣，那有沒有什麼比如禁錨區的設置等事前預防的機制？海委會有沒有一些準備呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：海纜區作為禁錨區需要經過公告，然後去界定它的範圍，經過這兩次事件以後，範圍應該要如何重新公告跟劃定有在考慮。"],["牛委員煦庭：那這一部分應該會比修船舶法稍微簡單一點吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分比較快，下個禮拜二會開會處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼時候會進到公告的程序呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這都是航港局的權責。"],["牛委員煦庭：不管是修船舶法、公告禁錨區或你剛剛講的分級等等，你總要有一些事前預防跟可以先處理的機制，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們現在已經都在事前預防。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個強度要出來，才能避免這樣奇怪的事情再發生。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會抓到宏泰，就是因為它還沒斷的時候，我們已經到現場了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們要確定的是接下來類似這樣的事情，你可以預先掌握或預防。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，其實除了宏泰，我們後續還抓了兩次。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，後續的一些成果……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們有一個案是同時抓到兩艘。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你後續有一些成果、現行機制的不足之處跟你遇到的困難，會後你整理一個詳細的報告。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我都已經很明確的講，就是要預防這樣的事情，其實為了海纜的穩定性、為了國家安全，大家都會願意支持，那阻力在哪裡你總要講出來嘛，大家才能夠溝通，搞不好大家可以一起把這個事情加速嘛。所以你把遇到的障礙、困難跟預計的時間，會後整理一份資料。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後一分鐘我一定要問，現在真正在執行這些事情的，當然就是辛苦了海巡的弟兄，所以我們修正警察人員人事條例，是要保障退休人員的權益，但現職人員也很重要，現在有越來越多人在講，實務上以臺海兩岸的特殊狀況來講，海巡常常是在第一線，有時候拍共艦的照片，海巡拍得比海軍清楚，可是最近大家在講我們要加強國防戰力，我們要改善志願役弟兄的待遇，增加他的戰鬥加給，海軍都增加了，那海巡署的弟兄算警職人員，他們做的事情其實跟海軍沒什麼兩樣，甚至大家都講現在海巡要變成所謂的第二海軍了，那他們做的事情既然沒有什麼兩樣，甚至風險跟前線變化都更多，請問海巡現職人員的待遇應不應該提升？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為海巡就是軍警文三種身分，軍職的話，我們隨著軍職的調升都有做相當的配合。"],["牛委員煦庭：軍職就有跟著軍職的部分走。"],["管主任委員碧玲：絕大部分是跟著它走。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在是警職的部分。"],["管主任委員碧玲：警職的部分其實這幾年也陸陸續續有調升一些，晚近我們也在爭取一、兩項，能不能請委員容我在這裡先不……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，詳細資料跟你的方向，我一樣會給你時間來處理。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為還沒有最後核對，但我們在爭取。"],["牛委員煦庭：我只是要藉這樣的機會提醒你，你看都發生了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：然後有十分得到人事部門的了解。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你都整理好，跟剛剛一樣把它整理好，因為關鍵是現在在執行的狀況，有些警職人員甚至文職人員也要到第一線去處理。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我可以整理。"],["牛委員煦庭：那不要說大家是同工但不同酬，然後去影響基層的士氣，所以我們講我們支持海巡、支持軍警等等，不分退休還是現職，都應該要合理的提升，這是我們的立場。所以我是希望海委會也要積極，如果軍職人員都提升了，你應該要比照嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我一面非常積極的在爭取，一面我勉勵我的同仁，國家的責任我們扛在身上，讓他們信賴長官，心情不要浮動。"],["牛委員煦庭：那當然嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那我一面有安撫這個事情，我們署長也都到第一線，我們分署長也都……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個都是你們本來就應該要做的事情。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，都在安定……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天特別會提這個事，就是因為……"],["管主任委員碧玲：大家士氣高昂。"],["牛委員煦庭：我特別會提醒這些事，就是因為現在比如外交及國防委員會，他們已經開始在討論軍人待遇的提升，那不要出現落差，影響士氣，所以請海巡署這邊預作準備。所以一樣，你把你的規劃跟接下來的節奏，以及也許會遇到的障礙，先整理嘛，我們大家一起來協助溝通，幫海巡弟兄爭取更好的待遇，這樣可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝主委，辛苦了！"],["主席：請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","丁學忠"],"page_start":297,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00005"}}},{"id":"160329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160329","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a43de83089dc00ffdc8e6452bc7faa753875aa7aeb25548b49b0f7f8ee9a7a6aef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:19:36 - 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謝謝主席 我們請貫主委好 請主委委員好"},{"start":10.765,"end":38.893,"text":"好 主委好首先我還是要跟您再次的請教這個預算的部分因為其實很多委員都有提到了3月底公告的這個總預算被刪減跟凍結的結果很可能造成很多重要的預算沒有辦法執行下去那我就我幾個非常關心的部分來跟您請教第一個是國外旅費的部分被刪了60%那這一點我非常擔心是因為還記得上一次總諮詢的時候我也在"},{"start":39.713,"end":65.015,"text":"一場請教主委說我們是不是應該要針對最近的海瀾的狀況來加強擴大跟國際聯防在海瀾外交以及國際安全上面做更多的區域聯防那當時我認為接下來很重要就是利用這個國外旅費的部分來參加更多的國際安全的會議然後像波羅的海周遭的國家一樣進行海瀾的外交結果"},{"start":66.897,"end":79.534,"text":"現在我們國外的旅費被通刪了60%這是一個非常非常大的打擊等於直接銷入我們在海域安全上面跟其他國家的交流這是我在這邊要非常嚴厲譴責也要在這邊"},{"start":83.079,"end":86.083,"text":"希望呼籲接下來如果還有類似的經費絕對不能這樣亂刪因為這跟我們接下來非常關注的海域跟其他國際上的交流非常之重要啊尤其是我才剛提到海南外交結果就被砍掉了各位原報告"},{"start":98.218,"end":119.275,"text":"就是海巡的部分有特別做一個決議說海巡35%就好那海委會整體還是在60%但是問題在海巡更嚴重為什麼呢他雖然3的%數是15%但他弄一個不得留用不得留用的意思就是說你不夠欠錢過去是我海委會可以給你每年都給我海委會出國的錢"},{"start":123.979,"end":133.81,"text":"因為海巡你要去跟其他的國家交流要去跟他們學習 要去跟他們訓練我們的海巡是很多的 還要去跟他們做外交所以他們都沒辦法 已經每年都沒辦法 都要我幫忙"},{"start":139.697,"end":163.797,"text":"現在連交換口也不能給他因為他就規定不能留用所以這個部分說起來數字裡面常有實在是不為人知的苦楚在裡面所以國外的旅費對我們來講尤其是海巡不得留用的這部分是很大的傷害那國內的旅費"},{"start":165.758,"end":184.864,"text":"我們真的是很辛苦跟委員報告國內的旅費刪除的結果雖然你說總額幾千萬不多但是委員我們就因此我們東沙的弟兄他們要回來休假都要搭飛機來回我們因為國內旅費刪減的結果"},{"start":187.685,"end":202.251,"text":"我們三百分之二十而且不得留用導致於我們東沙的弟兄沒有辦法百分之百的就可以搭飛機來回休假是影響他們休假的權益嗎"},{"start":203.818,"end":220.223,"text":"我們就變成在調度上會影響我們在調度上面的摯愛那另外就是他要花更多的時間在交通我們就要去把他喬準出來所以他沒有多少行李我們就要去喬準喬準的時候時間就比較長所以休假的時間還有交通的時間等等就影響我們的調度"},{"start":225.865,"end":243.124,"text":"我們都不可以到外面看不到,那整個海巡現在變成國內的出差、散雜費全部不能領你出差有時候要買一個便當,現在自己出錢,以前就是出差、散雜費,現在都完全不能領"},{"start":244.145,"end":268.579,"text":"是啦 對於公務員真的很辛苦啦這個我們大家也是非常努力做事為了國家為了海域的安全在努力結果現在被刪成這樣對於我們公務員的打擊士氣打擊也是非常大那我在這邊講一個我認為也是非常嚴重的啦就是設備費因為這個海巡在第一線是非常非常需要良好的設備來守護他們的安全還有進行搜救的安全"},{"start":269.239,"end":295.367,"text":"結果這次設備費砍了6%8.9億那是不是他們在個人的設備上面的更新都會受到影響啊本來有影響就是說我那個設備裡面今年有新的案嘛新增預算新增預算不是說增加就很快樂增加都是救命錢實在是一塊錢都不應該省為什麼我要買防彈背心的我要買攔截鎖的"},{"start":297.068,"end":308.46,"text":"我要買短武器的啦我要買救生救難設備這個我們都有看過海巡人員在海上第一線的這個工作執行是非常辛苦的非常高風險的要補一個個就變成我兩台船沒辦法高船了"},{"start":315.371,"end":326.983,"text":"所以講到這邊我是覺得很難過啦也替我們海巡人員感到很不捨啦就不敢咩所以在這邊也是再次的幫我們辛苦的海巡人打氣啦那在這邊還有一點時間我要講一下這個海嵐的事情因為其實我在總質詢也提過了包括說現在我們"},{"start":332.489,"end":355.135,"text":"海嵐受到的風險是非常高的那其實在4月1號我知道行政院也因為我們非常有的很多委員都很關心所以有開了一個強化我國海嵐的研討會議那之後也有提相關的修法的準備那我不知道說現在準備的進度到哪裡了那我在這邊提一個因為其實最近中國他們不只是用貨船用漁船最近還用科研船"},{"start":357.336,"end":371.597,"text":"那他們這種類似的間諜船越來越多了那最近有一個中國的研究是說他們會把這個切斷海欖的工具搭載在科研船上面然後不只是淺海的海欖可以切斷連深海的海欖他們也覬覦"},{"start":373.604,"end":386.871,"text":"那這種間諜船在我看來是風險非常高那最近澳洲也因為中國的這個探索一號直接跟著他們的海嵐的路線沿著他們海嵐路線在行駛讓澳洲非常警戒"},{"start":387.918,"end":406.44,"text":"那像這種間諜船接下來是不是也會影響如果他們不只是在我們台灣海峽未來他們在我們東部在我們北部開始覬覦我們的深海的海嵐該怎麼辦是不是應該眼光看遠一點他們現在包括我知道你們最近終於把這個台澎三號"},{"start":407.401,"end":422.336,"text":"虹泰58終於可以用司法來制裁嘛這個初步有一個好的結果那未來除此之外其他法律修法相關之外我們這些深海的海嵐到底有沒有一些防範的方式以及往前看到底該怎麼預防"},{"start":424.884,"end":444.022,"text":"我想中華電信本身也很努力他們也在對於他們的海嵐的汰換或者是海嵐的這個發展的各方面的技術還有備援系統等等他們都有努力的在精進那對於海嵐的守護他們也有智慧的監控的系統"},{"start":445.083,"end":462.216,"text":"那我晚近也有陸陸續續在請海巡跟他們建議就是說無人機隊的守護說不定也可以引進我們國內已經有無人機隊被僱用來巡查直升機隊巡查離岸風電"},{"start":464.358,"end":486.153,"text":"那直升機隊能夠民間如果租賃 雇用來幫忙也做巡查那我們海巡就會有中華電信 航港局跟海巡之外我們有三層的防護之外 再加一層空中這樣的一個巡防那我們最近也都有在溝通"},{"start":489.815,"end":512.605,"text":"那委員剛剛講的修法的部分我們4月22號要開第二次會議行政院政務委員會來主持各部會就分頭回去他們需要修的法分頭回去研議那第二次會議是4月22號會開太好了4月22號開第二次會那我也希望盡快啦因為我看起來是非常迫切"},{"start":513.805,"end":539.125,"text":"就最近這個澳洲的例子看起來然後再加上因為我們現在的法律上法律工具真的很不足包括說現在只能預警啊驅離啊那什麼時候可以沒入什麼時候可以開罰不知道是有刑責也可以開罰但是對於船的沒入目前還沒有像那個那個塗財法跟專精法一樣就是說"},{"start":540.126,"end":568.572,"text":"以我們現在的民刑法的體系來看這一艘船的船東是別人然後犯罪行為人是船長跟船員那以我們現在的司法體系呢它又不是他們的船那又不是船東犯的法所以你要沒入的話法律是不允許的所以我們必須去修法說這種犯刑的船雖然非屬行為人所有也"},{"start":569.752,"end":581.32,"text":"應該沒入也可以沒入必須修這個法我們才有辦法得到法院的支持好謝謝那我也希望朝這個方向再加緊研議好謝謝主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":360,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。首先我還是要跟您再次請教預算的部分，因為很多委員其實都有提到3月底公告的總預算被刪減跟凍結的結果，很可能造成很多重要的預算沒有辦法執行下去，我就針對幾個我非常關心的部分來跟您請教。","第一個是國外旅費的部分被刪了60%，這一點我非常擔心是因為還記得上一次總質詢的時候，我也在議場請教主委我們是不是應該要針對最近的海纜狀況加強擴大跟國際聯防，在海纜外交以及國際安全上面做更多的區域聯防，當時我認為接下來很重要的就是利用國外旅費的部分來參加更多的國際安全會議，像波羅的海周遭的國家一樣進行海纜的外交。結果現在我們的國外旅費被通刪了60%，這是一個非常非常大的打擊，等於直接削弱我們在海域安全上面跟其他國家的交流，這是我在這邊要非常嚴厲譴責的，也要在這邊呼籲，希望接下來如果還有類似的經費，絕對不能這樣亂刪，因為這對我們非常關注的海域及其他國際上的交流非常之重要，尤其是我才剛提到海纜外交，結果就被砍掉了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，針對海巡的部分，有特別做一個決議是海巡刪15%就好，海委會整體還是在60%，但是問題在海巡更嚴重，為什麼呢？雖然刪的百分比是15%，但是弄了一個不得流用的限制，不得流用的意思就是說如果不夠、缺錢，過去海委會可以提供，它每年都跟海委會要出國的錢，因為海巡要去跟其他的國家交流，要去那邊學習、訓練，我們的海巡有很多也要去外面做外交，所以他們已經每年都不夠了，都來跟我要……"],["黃委員捷：今年沒辦法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：現在來跟我要，我也不能給他，因為規定不能流用。"],["黃委員捷：是啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個數字裡藏著不為人知的苦楚在裡面；所以國外的旅費對我們來講，尤其海巡不得流用的部分是很大的傷害；國內旅費的部分，我們真的是很辛苦，跟委員報告，雖然國內的旅費刪除總額幾千萬、不多，但是我們東沙的弟兄要回來休假，都是要搭飛機來回，也因為國內旅費被刪減20%且不得流用，導致我們東沙的弟兄沒有辦法百分之百的可以搭飛機來回休假……"],["黃委員捷：等於影響他們休假的權益嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：就變成會影響我們的調度，另外是他要花更多的時間在交通上，我們要去幫他調度船班，所以他沒辦法坐飛機，我們就要去調度船班，調度船班的時間會耗費比較久，所以休假的時間，還有交通的時間等等因素，就會影響我們的調度，這些我們是忙得要命，但外人根本都不知道；現在整個海巡的國內出差及膳雜費全部不能領，我也很捨不得，有時候你出差要買一個便當，現在要自己出錢了，以前出差的膳雜費，現在完全都不能領。"],["黃委員捷：是，對於公務員真的很辛苦啦！我們大家也是非常努力做事，為了國家、為了海域的安全在努力，結果現在被刪成這樣，對於我們公務員的士氣打擊也是非常大。"],["管主任委員碧玲：主要是這部分不能流用……"],["黃委員捷：另外我認為也是非常嚴重的就是「設備費」，因為海巡在第一線是非常非常需要良好的設備來守護他們的安全，還有進行搜救的安全，結果這次設備費被砍了6%，有8.9億，是不是他們個人設備上的更新都會受到影響？"],["管主任委員碧玲：本來就有影響，今年我們設備裡有新的採購案，新增預算不是增加就很快樂，增加的都是救命錢啊！"],["黃委員捷：是啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：實在是一塊錢都不應該刪啊！"],["黃委員捷：是啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：為什麼？我要買防彈背心、買攔截索、買短武器、買救生救難設備……"],["黃委員捷：我們都有看到海巡人員在海上第一線執行工作是非常辛苦的、非常高風險的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，還是被刪，我們一直補，補的結果就變成我們兩艘船沒辦法交船。"],["黃委員捷：講到這邊，我是覺得很難過，也替我們海巡人員感到很不捨啦！在這邊再次幫我們辛苦的海巡人員打氣。","還有點時間，我要說明一下海纜的事情，因為我在總質詢也提過了，包括現在我們海纜受到的風險是非常高的，因為有很多委員都非常關心，所以行政院在4月1日有召開強化我國海纜的研討會議，之後也有提相關修法的準備，不知道現在準備的進度到哪裡？我在這邊提一個，因為中國不只是用貨船、用漁船，最近還用科研船，他們這種類似的間諜船越來越多，最近有一個中國的研究，他們會把切斷海纜的工具搭載在科研船上面，不只是淺海的海纜可以切斷，連深海的海纜也覬覦，這種間諜船在我看來是風險非常高，最近澳洲也因為中國的「探索一號」沿著他們的海纜路線在行駛，讓澳洲非常警戒。像這種間諜船接下來是不是也會影響？如果他們不只是在臺灣海峽，未來在我們東部、北部開始覬覦我們深海的海纜，該怎麼辦？是不是應該眼光看遠一點？我知道你們最近終於可以用司法制裁「臺澎三號」、「宏泰58」，這個初步有一個好的結果，未來除其他相關法律修法之外，我們這些深海的海纜，到底有沒有一些防範的方式，以及往前看到底該怎麼預防？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，中華電信本身也很努力，他們在對於他們海纜的汰換或者是發展海纜各方面的技術，還有備援系統等等，都有努力地在精進；對於海纜的守護，他們也有智慧的監控系統，我晚近也有陸陸續續在請海巡跟他們建議，說不定無人機隊的守護也可以引進。我們國內已經有無人機隊、直升機隊被僱用來巡查離岸風電，如果租賃及僱用民間直升機隊來幫忙巡查，我們海巡就會有中華電信、航港局跟海巡這三層的防護之外，再加一層空中的巡防……"],["黃委員捷：無人機的巡防。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們最近都有在溝通。委員剛剛提到修法的部分，我們在4月22日會召開第二次會議。"],["黃委員捷：OK！"],["管主任委員碧玲：行政院政務委員會來主持，各部會會就他們需要修法的分頭回去研議，第二次會議是安排在4月22日。"],["黃委員捷：太好了，4月22日開第二次會議，我也希望儘快啦！因為我看起來是非常迫切，就最近這個澳洲的例子，看起來……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我再把那個名稱補給委員。"],["黃委員捷：再加上因為我們現在法律上的工具真的很不足，包括現在只能預警、驅離，什麼時候可以沒入？什麼時候可以開罰？不知道？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是有刑責也可以開罰，但是對於船的沒入，目前還沒有像土採法跟專經法一樣，以現在民刑法的體系來看，這艘船的船東是別人，然後犯罪行為人是船長跟船員，以我們現在的司法體系，它又不是他們的船，那又不是船東犯的法，要沒入是法律不允許的，所以我們必須針對這種犯行的船去修法，雖然它非屬行為人所有，也應該沒入，也可以沒入。"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：必須修這個法……"],["黃委員捷：支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們才有辦法得到法院的支持。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。我也希望朝這個方向再加緊研議，好謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["主席：請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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才有就是重要的幾個問題需要說一個澄清就是因為灰色地帶有就是"},{"start":214.749,"end":224.025,"text":"超常就是這個常態化了海巡高感知知能力還有仰賴的是科技的補群還有"},{"start":227.394,"end":235.878,"text":"請問在截止日前全國完成部署的紅外線的夜影還有監控的共點有幾處這個部分還有說我們已經是是否該含就是所有的高風險的熱帶區還有是否具備夜間辦事與AI的警能力"},{"start":255.349,"end":260.494,"text":"這個部分是不是說我們的主委這邊這幾點可以說明一下謝謝委員關心也謝謝委員的肯定那我跟委員報告就是說是不是容我來辦公室跟委員說明剛剛的這幾個部署詳細的部署的內容因為比較不適合基民的"},{"start":275.546,"end":300.343,"text":"没问题没问题我们都欢迎最资深的立委又最认真的主委所以我们希望就是这个就是我们要有准确性再来去又没有说可能会误判或者误判后我们要如何查证人力如何配置还有说我们能够快速排除这些状况这个部分也希望说"},{"start":300.885,"end":307.692,"text":"我們主委這邊我們很少有誤判的狀況對有一些就是關於這個希望說是誤判的一次那我也馬上第二天第二天上午就馬上該懲處就立刻懲處我們要是非分明所以我們希望說就是聯合這些監控的小組"},{"start":321.466,"end":342.926,"text":"就是要研究啦就是我們希望是有這個部分想要更了解因為我們就是大家做事情就是要那個穩重又有實際所以我們希望說有這樣子的一個一個關注希望說我們主委這樣子的硬硬的這樣子的威脅的話這個就是會設地帶的威脅所以我們希望說有這樣子的一個"},{"start":348.614,"end":366.58,"text":"所以你說你要到辦公室跟我講所以我們第二個就是說再請教就是關於就是我們海洋污染還有生態退化的問題所以在113年至114年3月也是海污緊急的應變達到256件海難事件也佔了140件所以我們"},{"start":374.142,"end":377.285,"text":"非海南的116件請問256件的應變中心實際有污染後的效果為何還有我們的量能允許下座第一線的應變人員平均反應的時間還有出勤的"},{"start":395.04,"end":402.064,"text":"出勤力的列管所以我們希望說然後就是因為時間的關係所以我們主委可以在針對就是海洋保護一個公告後第一階段的實施後續就是何時可以完成這兩件可以給我一個回應"},{"start":415.572,"end":437.19,"text":"那個出勤的時間的部分 可能就比較沒辦法 為什麼呢因為出勤的人員 中央地方政府還有民間是這樣三合一一起在應變但是屬於我們海委會海保署的人員 各位有報告齁我看到那時候譬如說玉洲啟航 半月三點半在調度"},{"start":438.971,"end":466.945,"text":"我們一定要它要不然汙染的時候我們就必須要把資材整合好然後運到現場然後開始拉攔油索還沒汙染就要開始做了所以那個LINE的資料都可以讓大家看到會感動到掉眼淚我們本來三點半要在連絡這些事情所以初勤我是覺得初勤、濾勤大家不用擔心我們台灣的海域"},{"start":468.648,"end":470.013,"text":"來一次颱風 來兩次颱風總共就11艘大船擱淺"},{"start":475.595,"end":501.556,"text":"那個海汙的處理到現在還在處理蘭嶼的船還有玉舟起航還有擱淺的那些還有三艘加起來還有五艘到現在還在處理所以親會員放心我們是日以繼夜非常積極的在應變因此我們海上的污染多半都事先防範或者是立即捕捉到目前為止這幾年來"},{"start":504.378,"end":509.341,"text":"都沒有嚴重的污染出現我們謝謝主委就是詳細也真的有用心所以就是讓你多講讓更多我們就是對我們的海委會這邊我們覺得說這個真的是要多讓更多人知道"},{"start":524.05,"end":531.658,"text":"因為有時候資料不足或者是沒有完整所以我們希望說這些都要去完整讓我們可以更了解更清楚對我們的海洋國家就是名副其實"},{"start":544.153,"end":547.275,"text":"這樣子的話我們才會有這樣子的制度還有科技還有就是跨部會的治理我們希望說我們的主委你主動提出改革也主動說要來在我辦公室要跟我們做報告還有預算性的效力還有執行的效力我覺得這個就是我們"},{"start":569.353,"end":579.73,"text":"大家都是肯定的我們謝謝我們的主委對我們的用心對我們海洋國家的用心謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。首先，我們大家都不分黨派的肯定海洋委員會在113年推動了「堅守三安、守護四海、探索海洋」的努力，並在國家海洋治理、邊境安全、海洋保育及淨零轉型等政策面上有不錯的進展，我們都很肯定。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有，加上我們每個部會到處造謠，鋪天蓋地的，但是我們的管主委，「惦惦仔做」、做好就好了，不用每天在那邊……"],["管主任委員碧玲：有啦，我也有實際去講……"],["麥委員玉珍：對該做的要去做。","海委會在114年編了335億3,886萬，比去年多了53億，還有海洋科研補助計畫方面，海委會的補助金額也在今年增至7,500萬，通過30案入選，這些都是在你們編列的預算裡面。面對當前極端氣候加劇、灰色地帶的衝突升高，以及全球對藍碳與生態法治的高度關注，臺灣若想成為一個真正的海洋國家，因為我們在這裡看到的那邊是我娘家啦，所以我們覺得海洋國家真的是很重要，大家要做的不只是具備海上的防衛能力，更須擁有以科學為基礎、以制度為骨幹、跨域整合為核心的治理架構，所以主委，我們真的要給你拍拍手，我們都會認同，對於整個經費，你也都沒有像其他人那樣，是這些委員一直提出、提出，讓你不得不去講一下。","我們針對貴會報告中的三個重點政策方向提出幾個問題，希望主委給我們一些回應及說明。我們看到從113年到114年3月，海委會對中國大陸越界船舶是驅離1,671艘、扣留20艘、罰鍰730萬元、沒入8艘，這個數量真的很龐大，但是我們從戰略防禦角度觀之，仍有幾個重要的問題希望能夠予以澄清：首先是灰色地帶行動漸趨常態化，海巡署的高感知能力多仰賴科技輔勤，請問截至目前為止，全國完成部署的紅外線熱影像監控點有幾處？是否已經涵蓋所有高風險熱區？是否具備夜間辨識與AI預警能力？這幾個部分是不是請主委說明一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員關心，也謝謝委員的肯定。跟委員報告，是不是容我去辦公室跟委員說明剛剛這幾個詳細部署的內容，因為事涉機敏資訊，比較不適合在這裡公開回答。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒問題、沒問題，我們都歡迎最資深的立委，也是最認真的主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望這個部分要有準確性，因為有可能會誤判，如果誤判，之後我們要如何查證？人力如何配置？還有我們如何能夠快速排除這些狀況？這幾個部分也希望主委這邊……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很少有誤判的狀況，但是……"],["麥委員玉珍：對、對，有一些就是關於這個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：淡水河這次確實是誤判了一次，我也馬上在第二天上午就對該懲處的立刻懲處，我們要是非分明，紀律要嚴明。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們希望聯合監控小組要去研究啦，我們希望對於這個部分能夠更了解，大家做事情就是要穩重且實際，所以我們有這樣的一個關注，也希望主委能因應這樣的威脅、灰色地帶的威脅，所以我們希望有這樣的……你說你要到辦公室來跟我講嘛。","第二個要請教的是關於海洋污染及生態退化的問題，在113年至114年3月間，海污緊急應變達到256件，其中海難事件占了140件，非海難的是116件。請問這256件應變案件中，實際有污染後果的比例為何？還有，在我們的量能允許下，第一線應變人員的平均反應時間及出勤率是否有列管？因為時間的關係，本席還想請問主委的是，海洋保育法公告後，第一階段條文已經實施，請問後續子法何時可以完成？請主委針對這兩個部分給我一個回應。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，出勤時間的部分可能比較沒有辦法，為什麼呢？因為出勤的人員是中央、地方政府及民間這樣三合一一起在應變，但是屬於我們海委會海保署的人員，跟委員報告，像颱風來襲的時候，譬如說「鈺洲啟航」這個案子，我們到半夜三點半還在調度，因為我們一定要在它還沒有污染的時候就必須把資材整合好，運到現場，然後開始拉攔油索，在還沒污染就要開始做了，所以那個LINE的資料如果大家看到都會感動到掉眼淚，因為我們直到半夜三點半都還在聯絡這些事情，所以我是覺得出勤率的部分請大家不用擔心。","我們臺灣的海域，兩次颱風來襲總共就有11艘大船擱淺，那個海污到現在都還在處理，蘭嶼的船、鈺洲啟航，以及擱淺的那3艘，加起來還有5艘到現在還在處理，所以請委員放心，我們是日以繼夜、非常積極地在應變。我們海上的污染多半都是事先防範或者是立即捕捉，到目前為止，這幾年來，都沒有嚴重的污染出現，這背後就是大家的努力。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝主委詳細的說明，也真的是有用心，所以就讓你多講，讓更多人對海委會這邊……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝，我們海保人力非常少，但是……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，我們覺得這個真的是要讓更多人知道，因為有時候資料不足或者是不夠完整，所以我們希望這些都要去做完整，讓我們可以……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們海保署才七十幾個人，真的很了不起！"],["麥委員玉珍：讓我們可以更了解、更清楚，讓我們能夠成為名副其實的海洋國家，而且我們要真正落實制度建構、科學決策及跨部會整合的治理，希望主委能夠主動提出改革，剛剛主委也主動說要來我辦公室跟我做報告，還有預算有效性及執行率，我覺得這個是我們大家都予以肯定的地方，謝謝主委對我們海洋國家的用心，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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有請管主委跟署長好 請主委跟署長委員好 肩負台灣的這個海岸安全而且有我們所有周邊的這些沿海的安全那我想海委會海巡署壓力非常的沉重"},{"start":32.118,"end":60,"text":"在這邊先給所有海巡署的同仁們加油我們還是希望站在執政黨的委員我們雖然在去年1月以及後來的復議案都沒有能夠成功把海委會海巡署相關的預算可以爭取下來但是我覺得我們必須要在這邊跟國人來講清楚這些預算去了哪這些預算發生什麼事"},{"start":60.72,"end":87.286,"text":"我先講海底電纜,每個人都在講海底電纜今年的1月3號有一艘克麥隆級的貨船它的拋錨導致海底電纜受損那很快的國防外交委員會的林義軍召委他就召開了這一個專案報告國安局提出幾點建議包含加強"},{"start":90.383,"end":109.349,"text":"電纜周邊的海域重點巡查這個是海巡署的工作完備海纜設施防護演練這個海巡署的工作推動國際交流提升合作聯防加強權宜輪檢管管制通報這也是海巡署的工作"},{"start":110.168,"end":129.873,"text":"很多海巡署的工作演完這一場專案報告之後呢1月21、1月22藍白漏葉表決通過史上最大筆的預算煽動案我講一下這個時序接下來2月25號又發生了一件"},{"start":131.118,"end":151.299,"text":"台澎三號海纜全面全段障礙經過經查之後是由多哥級的鴻泰號郵輪這台鴻泰號就是剛剛主委有跟其他委員討論到的權宜輪他不但有中國的這些身份之外他同時也有註冊台灣的"},{"start":156.094,"end":161.046,"text":"台灣是宏泰58那他在中國是金龍吧"},{"start":161.8,"end":187.89,"text":"他有很多個名字還有善美還有宏泰168跟宏泰58所以剛剛主委講到的這個必須要做這些我們在處理我們在處理上一個法案的時候我們有增加這些罰則他罰錢之外那我們希望還是要增加刑責針對這個蓄意用灰色手段在破壞台灣電纜的這些船隻接下來3月12號"},{"start":190.236,"end":215.251,"text":"我們給藍白一次復議機會那也給我們海巡署再一次機會我們能不能再把這些經費要回來3月12號總預算的復議案對不起我們還是沒有辦法得到國民黨跟民眾黨的支持所以我在這邊要問主委的是在這兩次預算案裡面被刪掉的預算裡面"},{"start":216.55,"end":240.775,"text":"我看到的資料是3減10億 凍結11億我想要重複一下 我記得我們在內政委員會我們守得很辛苦啊 我們努力的說服國民黨及內政委員會的委員不要刪凍這麼多我想請主席處長說明一下我們在內政委員會被刪除凍結的預算是多少"},{"start":243.147,"end":267.937,"text":"報告委員我們在內委會被刪減了1530萬1530萬但是我們到議員會的時候發生什麼事被刪了10.8億通山的部分被誰通山那時候就是民眾黨團有提一個通山決通山的提案就是這一份通山案通山海巡署15%的預算"},{"start":272.745,"end":289.078,"text":"凍結11億的預算就是這一份民眾黨在院會通山海巡署15%也就是10億的預算裡面再加上國民黨在內政委員會做了什麼決議 處長"},{"start":293.476,"end":320.079,"text":"國民黨委員在內政委員會做的刪除的決議不得留用刪除的預算不得留用的決議因為那個在通山裡面的話以前都有一個為了執行彈性嘛所以他有一個執行彈性然後今年的話他有限制通山部分的話取消留用的規定國民黨在內政委員會取消留用的規定台灣民眾黨在院會刪除15%"},{"start":321.92,"end":328.326,"text":"也就是說你今年度可能要交的船會沒有辦法交船來主委這個是不是請你回應"},{"start":330.331,"end":354.009,"text":"各位委員報告刪掉的這10億多呢我們最後最後橋車來橋車去大概就是兩艘船沒辦法交船為什麼兩艘船沒有辦法交因為因為我們以前若是希望抬掉的錢我們有一個決議那個決議就是說我們可以去替代對我剛剛講過了嘛這個決議已經被國民黨委員在內政委員會決議拿掉了"},{"start":357.472,"end":383.778,"text":"拿掉了我們現在變成不能補回來不能補所以今年這兩隻船就沒辦法搞船但是他好了對不對他造好了對不對年底會造好年底造好但是依今年被30億的預算是沒有辦法交船的對那另外就是說其實最嚴重的也不是這個我們現在第一年齁七上八下還懸而未決的是那600多億怎麼辦"},{"start":385.816,"end":413.905,"text":"那六百多億萬一到時候真的必須刪然後分配而下來現在講的只有這個統三的啦還沒有包含六百多億還沒有包含六百多億行政院跟我們現在海委會還沒有辦法算出來到底六百多億海委會必須要被刪幾億嘛那可能是好幾十億就是我全部解凍都還不夠啦所以你解凍也沒辦法啦你不用解凍因為你解凍都要抬掉又不夠回來"},{"start":415.566,"end":435.139,"text":"海巡署是為國防的一部分國民黨加民眾黨這幾個預算的決議其實就是讓台灣的海巡讓台灣的國防敗卡了主委你同不同意這樣我剛剛有舉例譬如說我們的連江艦好了那我再舉例譬如說鴻泰鴻泰一艘船"},{"start":436.62,"end":440.786,"text":"要海底電纜 我首先在那裡你感到好 我一台大船去就有辦法把你抓到的時候還是兩台船就有辦法把你包抄 讓你跑不去的時候這兩台船就牽涉到 我斷纜的船抓得到嗎"},{"start":451.101,"end":459.83,"text":"那段時間是幾六千 甚至萬噸的 是貨輪啊我們的錢更大一代 也兩千噸 六百噸 最大一代四千噸但是我兩代過去的時候 你更大一代 不敢跟我說話的時候我可能也知道你會中嘛 這邊風態 我們就是去找他嘛我就不怕你走嘛 我知道你會中嘛"},{"start":474.265,"end":503.007,"text":"對 船上個人的安全設備我兩台船 我就有辦法抓斷纜船啊你現在兩台船沒辦法搞船 你看影響多大啊剛才我舉的連江艦的例子 一台船喔一台船 它就有辦法給陪伴抓 頭土魚抓得很高興啦抓到他的魚丸 要再叫管隊少這兩台船 你剛剛講的海底電纜跟漁民的安全都發生疑慮我們必須要跟國人說明清楚 謝謝"},{"start":504.17,"end":507.066,"text":"謝謝委員好 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就是廣完就走了嘛 對不對剛剛也有委員說啊 就很多的問題啊希望我們啊 這個海委會啊能夠把它整理出來我們該修法的就修法像這種的我跟你講 尤其對惡劣的對我們的對岸惡劣的這種的因為我們"},{"start":209.967,"end":231.025,"text":"如果修法然後要求他有一些賠償或什麼的或更多的責任我覺得才會嚇阻啦不然我跟你講反正喔他來都是有目的的啦他拿到的代價比他被關的還多啦每個人都會繼續來啦那我們如果台灣不修法這個問題沒有辦法解決啦不知道主委你的看法"},{"start":232.298,"end":252.595,"text":"謝謝委員馬上就可以提的就是說那我就比照抽砂船啊抽砂船現在我們經過修法也是很感謝委員們的支持之後呢第一個我船就可以沒入了所以前天就判決了沒入發回更審然後沒入第二個我還可以同時給他病科這個罰金"},{"start":256.198,"end":279.258,"text":"所以如果我們把它修在電業法是電力的嘛輸配電的然後電信那個電信管理法是是這個海嵐的斷纜的船嘛目前沒有目前沒有這個這個條款那確實是可以可以修目前是只有刑責但是船的沒入啊罰金等等這些我們可以來修"},{"start":280.688,"end":294.137,"text":"對 我的意思是說我舉這個例子那我們來修這個法但可能要請你們再多想不是 請你們要再多想一點有 像AIS的部分我們也去請那個 航港局修了"},{"start":295.018,"end":313.626,"text":"那另外就是說小船不掛AIS小船沒有納管的事我們也一直都在溝通現在波特船也是很嚴重的一個問題所以很多其實很多法都是我們海巡這裡執法以後反應給主管部門去修法來的"},{"start":314.406,"end":328.722,"text":"主委我的意思就是這樣以這一個全漁船的這種例子這樣子啦包括現在很多的甲漁船我們應該要修法能夠想到的一次就圍堵啦"},{"start":329.843,"end":353.438,"text":"不夠的再來補不要說一個一個來修要修法就一次然後各單位所以我才今天說要請你們海委會包括跟海巡署有相關的你們實際上遇到的要就一次我們來做盤點如果有委員的支持我們在跨部會的協調會更方便更好我們一定支持這個也不是為了委員有好幾個法我們都認為說應該要啟動修法"},{"start":356.119,"end":384.478,"text":"這個是為了台灣啊包括我剛剛講的那個電液法的部分我們如果是電力像我們不久以前去取締一個電力斷纜那個是出配電喔它斷纜喔讓我們去抓到了船喔那結果呢它那個意外就非故意過失它就不罰它就沒有處罰過失這個有很多啦很多樣態啦我現在講的就是我們把全部的樣態拿在一起一次處理啦是賣負又一個一個來啦賣負啦"},{"start":386.619,"end":411.164,"text":"人家是非常惡意的而且你們現在沒有錢沒有油你們連油費都不夠的情況之下你們能夠百分之百的確保說能夠保護到我們漁民保護到所有的人民嗎然後可以抓走私嗎我覺得這一點我相信主委你也不敢保證吧在沒有錢沒有油的情況之下"},{"start":411.94,"end":429.476,"text":"跟委員報告我們才前幾天回來的我們一千來回一千多海里然後想要去救一個船長因為他中風後來把他戒護回來光油錢光油錢大概都五六百萬那像這樣的遠洋救援我們就要五六百萬"},{"start":430.237,"end":451.237,"text":"那另外就是我們24小時的運作然後全國有這麼多的安檢所等等那我們的電費也不夠去年的電費都還用第二預備金替我們付了一千萬那今年水電費這樣一山我們現在也是苦哈哈也是很自愛我知道啦 主委電費齁"},{"start":453.669,"end":461.145,"text":"也很重要啦 但可能冷氣不用吹啦但有錢不夠連救人都不行啦這個才是重點啦 主委謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時53分）我請主委跟署長。"],["主席：請主委跟署長。"],["張委員宏陸：主委跟署長，其實剛剛很多人都在講我們海纜被斷的事情，衍生出來的問題是，我們的求償幾乎……反而我們要賠錢對吧，這個署長也可以回答，我們是不是幾乎都要賠錢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我請署長回答，我們過去只有2個案成功。"],["張委員宏陸：對，請署長回答。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，從開始有海纜被破壞以後，我們有2件是求償成功。"],["張委員宏陸：你只就你這個部分就好了，電纜修復是他們的事情，那是中華電信架的，就我們的。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，在海纜安全維護的部分我們投注很多心力，現在就海纜的部分，第一個，我們除了要關注在周邊航行的船舶以外，我們還要派很多勤務去做船舶辨識區域……"],["張委員宏陸：不，這個是等一下，我跟你講，船被扣押之後，船舶的停泊費誰出？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：之前是我們處理機關來處理……"],["張委員宏陸：對，我的意思就是你們。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：但是後來1月6號以後海委會有開過跨部會會議，這個部分只要犯罪證據明確的話，是全部由中華電信跟航港局來處理。"],["張委員宏陸：再來，人員呢，上面犯罪的所有人員、船長這些呢？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：這些全部都是由中華電信跟航港局來處理，後續的事由他們，包括他們所有的補給，這些由代理行全部來處理，這個在上次1月6號開的跨部會會議已經協調好了。"],["張委員宏陸：所以現在都他們嘛？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：再來，如果船隻被扣押之後，拍賣的錢現在是歸我們還是歸中華電信？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：拍賣就歸國庫，它是由法院來拍賣。"],["張委員宏陸：歸國庫嘛，對不對？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個是中華電信海纜的事情，現在是這樣。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：但從以前到現在，我們只要扣押了船，幾乎我們都賠錢比較多吧？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：對。"],["張委員宏陸：有沒有賺錢過的？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：因為像停泊費、保管這些全部是我們海巡署在處理。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啦，我們是不是都賠錢比較多？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：都賠錢比較多嘛？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：對。"],["張委員宏陸：再來，犯法的人員呢，可能關一關也就走了吧？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：這個部分就是依法院判決，如果他有罪的話就會判處徒刑，在臺灣服完刑期以後，透過陸委會方式跟移民署方式來遣返。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，就是關完就走了嘛，對不對？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：剛剛也有委員說，針對很多的問題希望海委會能夠整理出來，我們該修法的就修法，像這一種的，我跟你講，尤其對惡劣的、對岸惡劣的這一種，如果修法要求他有一些賠償或更多的責任，我覺得才會嚇阻。不然我跟你講，反正他來都是有目的的，他拿到的代價比他被關的還多，每個人都會繼續來，如果臺灣不修法，這個問題沒有辦法解決。不知道主委你的看法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員，馬上就可以提的就是比照抽砂船，抽砂船現在經過我們修法之後，也是很感謝委員們的支持，第一個，船就可以沒入了，所以前天就判決了沒入，發回更審然後沒入；第二個，還可以同時併科罰金。所以如果我們把它修在……電業法是關於電力的、輸配電的，電信管理法是關於海纜、斷纜的船，目前沒有這個條款，確實是可以修，目前只有刑責，但是船的沒入、罰金等等這些我們可以來修。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我舉這個例子，那我們來修這個法，可能要請你們再多想……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，大概是經濟部門……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，請你們要再多想一點，不只是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，像AIS的部分我們也請航港局修了，另外關於小船不掛AIS、小船沒有納管的事，我們也一直都在溝通，現在波特船也是很嚴重的一個問題。"],["張委員宏陸：對！"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實很多法都是我們海巡這裡執法以後反映給主管部門而修法的。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我的意思就是這樣，以這種權宜船的例子，包括現在很多的假漁船，我們應該要修法，能夠想到的一次就圍堵，不夠的再來補，不要一個、一個來修，要修法就一次，然後各單位，所以我才會要請你們海委會跟海巡署針對相關的、你們實際上遇到的，要就一次。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們來做盤點，如果有委員的支持，我們在跨部會的協調會更方便、更好溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：我們一定支持，這個也不是為了委員。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有好幾個法我們都認為應該要啟動修法。"],["張委員宏陸：這個是為了臺灣！"],["管主任委員碧玲：包括我剛剛講的電業法部分，如果是電力，像我們不久以前去取締一個電力斷纜，那個是輸配電斷纜，我們抓到了船，結果它屬於意外，非故意過失就不罰，它就沒有處罰過失。"],["張委員宏陸：這個有很多樣態，我現在講的就是，我們把全部的樣態拿在一起一次處理，來不及再一個、一個來，來不及了！人家是非常惡意的，而且你們現在沒有錢、沒有油，你們連油費都不夠的情況之下……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們的水電費……跟委員報告……"],["張委員宏陸：你們能夠確保百分之百保護到我們漁民、保護到所有的人民嗎，然後可以抓走私嗎？這一點我相信主委也不敢保證吧，在沒有沒有錢、沒有油的情況之下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，就像前幾天才回來的，我們來回一千多浬想要去救一個船長，因為他中風，後來把他接回來，光油錢大概都五、六萬，像這樣的遠洋救援就要五、六萬；另外就是我們24小時運作，全國有這麼多的安檢所等等，我們的電費也不夠，去年的電費都還用第二預備金替我們付了1,000萬，而今年水電費這樣一刪，我們現在也是苦哈哈，也是很窒礙！"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，主委，電費也很重要，不過可能冷氣可以不用吹，但油錢不夠連救人都不行，這個才是重點，主委，謝謝！"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","再來我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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主委今天是海委會的這個業務報告那本席看完了海委會的報告之後想要針對一個議題跟主委來聊聊因為這是最近台中鄉親非常關心的一個議題那在我們海委會的報告裡面有提到一個業務就是落實離岸風場生態影響評估那麼目標就是要確保離岸風場開發對於生態環境的影響降至最低"},{"start":38.214,"end":55.746,"text":"那113年我們監管了四座離岸風電水下基礎工程包括雲林台電二起海龍二號三號風場並且與我們的環境部來合作進行七次的這個稽查包括五次的陸域檢查跟兩次的海岸海域巡查"},{"start":56.647,"end":80.956,"text":"那由此可見我們對發展離岸風電跟生態之間的保護海委會尤其是海保署扮演的非常非常重要關鍵的角色在海保署的官網上面我們也特別提到為了海洋保育以及資源的永續利用海保署積極的參與各項各機關海洋保育案件的審查跟這個審議"},{"start":82.677,"end":92.204,"text":"那就我們海域生態跟海域水質等提供相關的意見並且依照我們這個環境評估法環境影響評估法裡面參與的這個委員會專案小組會議還有環境監督會議參與離岸風力發電的相關的這個審議"},{"start":100.154,"end":127.571,"text":"那為什麼不是這個地方說的這個事情我們特別挑這件事因為最近有風電的業者想要在台東的海岸線設置大型的風電機那這件事情其實引起我們當地居民很大的爭議本是要強調雖然他們目前規劃的是陸域的風電但是它的業務就在我們台東的海岸線電管所以因此跟我們這個海洋保育息息相關我們還是要關注"},{"start":128.271,"end":146.636,"text":"是相信像主委你也非常清楚台東海岸線可以說全國是全國最美的海岸線那還有會其實這幾年其實也投入很多在做海洋保育這一塊在台東這邊那我想尤其我們整個海岸線的這海洋生態資源非常的豐富台東可以說是面對太平洋的最前線"},{"start":147.836,"end":171.635,"text":"因此這個緊鄰海岸的這個風電不僅是對居民會造成影響我相信它還對沿海的生態會造成衝擊那尤其這個開發業者他預計是要在台東的海岸線設置將近60座由南到北將近60座的這個風力發電機我想這個一旦失去下去我們台東這最美的海藏可能就不復存在我想台東也會斷送台灣也會斷送一處這個文明國際的這個風景"},{"start":176.36,"end":198.89,"text":"那關於我們目前業者在台東的這個陸域封建的規劃案負責審查的機關是主要是經濟部跟環境部啦那本期其實在立法院也不斷地強表達地方的心聲那我們堅決不同意未經共識的開發案破案的環境而且要求主管機關要嚴格來審查我們目前已經有陸續獲得經濟部長跟環境部長的這個"},{"start":203.252,"end":227.392,"text":"表態就是他不支持陸域風電在我們東海岸的推動那根據我們經濟部能源局過去委託台灣地區風力潛能分佈模擬分析的結果我們台灣主要的風力潛能運藏區除了澎湖的離島之外主要分佈還是在西部的這個沿海地區 這是它邊國的部分那以此對於我們東部的鄉親來講我們很難想像有一天風電會進駐在"},{"start":229.741,"end":254.586,"text":"台東可能要發展這個風電那這個對當地的環境恐怕有造成很大的這個影響不過我想除了這一次台東的風電事件之外其實在2020年的時候也有曾經業者打算在台灣的這個東北部的這個外海就是外海的北方的這個三個島嶼設置風電廠不過引起那個疑難的漁民的強烈的抗議我想這些案例都"},{"start":255.626,"end":271.215,"text":"看到就是代表這些風電業者已經目標將這個方向轉到東部來規劃雖然說我們海委會主管的是離岸風電我們這邊也想要請教管主委我身為我國海洋保育的主管機關的首長"},{"start":272.136,"end":289.071,"text":"那針對未來無分市離岸風電或者是陸域風電的開發案若是在我們全國最美麗的台東的海岸線來進行或者是會可能影響到我們珍貴的海洋生態是不是會堅持 堅守我們主管機關的權責積極的傾聽我們在地的聲音"},{"start":294.536,"end":316.456,"text":"這沒有經過共識的開放破壞的環境我想也在環評的過程裡面積極的扮演這個監督的這個功能一起來守護我們台東的海洋資源這部分想要請主委來表態一下跟委員報告分三個部分第一個部分是我們今年度對台東縣政府在海洋保育方面的補助大概是1700萬"},{"start":321.679,"end":337.909,"text":"1716萬這個是第一另外就是說我們有在地守護的計畫有在地守護團隊的話那他們依在地的聲音在地的守護的團隊如果有出來提案我們也會扶植他們所以在台東也有在地守護的團隊在"},{"start":340.233,"end":364.17,"text":"那他主要是做那個資源調查那那另外就是說我們對於這個案其實海保署陸署長他也已經有關注到雖然他是陸域的案但是他有在關注好那我們會積極主動的關注那我想環境部也部長也有對對這個案表達他基本的態度好那基本上就如同我在報告中所說"},{"start":365.151,"end":379.576,"text":"我們會建立以科學為基礎的生態保育所以在科學為基礎的話很重要就是要調查所以在調查的這個部分我們會主動的來關注我會主動的來做謝謝主委"},{"start":383.319,"end":396.835,"text":"這個問題讓台東人很驚訝就是說這整個生態會造成很大的影響那我想我們一起來守護我們整個海洋資源也守護我們東部美麗的海岸線那謝謝主委這邊的謝謝主委謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我們有請海委會管主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早。主委，今天是海委會的業務報告，本席看完海委會的報告之後，想要針對一個議題跟主委來聊聊，因為這是最近臺東鄉親非常關心的議題。在海委會報告裡面有提到一個業務就是落實離岸風場生態影響評估，目標是要確保離岸風場開發對於生態環境的影響降至最低，113年監管了四座離岸風電水下基礎工程，包括雲林、台電二期、海龍二號、三號風場，並且與環境部合作進行7次稽查，包括5次陸域檢查跟2次海域巡查，由此可見，對於發展離岸風電跟生態之間的保護，海委會尤其是海保署扮演了非常、非常重要關鍵的角色。在海保署的官網上面也特別提到，為了海洋保育以及資源的永續利用，海保署積極參與各機關海洋保育案件的審查及審議，就海域生態及海域水質等提供相關意見，並且依照環境影響評估法相關規定，參與委員會專案小組會議、環境監督會議以及離岸風力發電的相關審議。為什麼本席會特別提到這件事情？我們特別提到這個是因為最近有風電業者想要在臺東的海岸線設置大型的風電機，這件事情其實引起我們當地居民很大的爭議，本席要強調，雖然他們目前規劃的是陸域的風電，但是就位在我們臺東的海岸線上面，因此跟我們的海洋保育息息相關。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們還是要關注。"],["黃委員建賓：是，相信主委你也非常清楚，臺東的海岸線可以說是全國最美的海岸線。"],["管主任委員碧玲：很美麗，是。"],["黃委員建賓：海委會這幾年其實也投入很多在做臺東的海洋保育這一塊。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的補助非常地多。"],["黃委員建賓：尤其我們整個海岸線的海洋生態資源非常豐富，臺東可以說是面對太平洋的最前線，因此這個緊鄰海岸的風電機，不僅是對居民會造成影響，我相信它也會對沿海的生態造成衝擊，尤其這個開發業者預計是要在臺東的海岸線由南到北設置將近60座的風力發電機，我想一旦設置下去，我們臺東最美麗的海線可能就不復存在，臺灣也會斷送一處聞名國際的風景。","關於目前業者在臺東的陸域風電規劃案，負責審查的機關主要是經濟部及環境部，本席其實在立法院也不斷地表達地方的心聲，我們堅決不同意未獲共識的開發案破壞我們的環境，而且要求主管機關要嚴格來審查。我們目前已經有陸續獲得經濟部長及環境部長的表態，就是他們不支持陸域風電在我們東海岸的推動。根據經濟部能源局過去委託臺灣地區風力潛能分布模擬分析的結果，臺灣主要的風力潛能蘊藏區除了澎湖等離島之外，主要還是分布在西部的沿海地區，這是他們的評估報告。因此對於我們東部的鄉親來講，我們很難想像有一天風電會進駐臺東，可能要發展風電，這對於當地的環境恐怕也會造成很大的影響。","不過，我想除了這一次臺東的風電事件之外，其實在2020年的時候，也曾經有業者打算在臺灣的東北部外海，就是外海的北方三個島嶼設置風電廠，引起宜蘭漁民的強烈抗議。我想這些案例都代表這些風電業者已經將目標方向轉到東部來規劃，雖然海委會主管的是離岸風電，不過我這邊也想要請教管主委，身為我國海洋保育主管機關的首長，針對未來無論是離岸風電或是陸域風電的開發案，若是在我們全國最美麗的臺東的海岸線來進行，或者是可能會影響到我們珍貴的海洋生態，是不是會堅持、堅守主管機關的權責，積極地傾聽我們在地的聲音，反對這個沒有經過共識的開發案破壞我們的環境？我想你們也應該在環評的過程裡面積極地扮演監督的功能，一起來守護我們臺東的海洋資源，這部分想要請主委來表態一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，分三個部分：第一個部分是我們今年度對臺東縣政府在海洋保育方面的補助大概是1,716萬，這是第一個；另外就是我們有在地守護的計畫，有在地守護團隊的話，他們依在地的聲音，在地的守護團隊如果有出來提案，我們也會扶植他們，所以在臺東也有在地守護團隊在，它主要是做資源調查。另外，我們對於這個案，其實海保署陸署長也已經有關注到，雖然它是陸域的案，但是他有在關注，我們會積極、主動地關注，環境部部長也有對這個案表達基本的態度。基本上就如同我在報告中所說，我們會建立以科學為基礎的生態保育，以科學為基礎的話，很重要就是要調查，所以在調查的這個部分，我們會主動地來關注、我會主動地來做。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委。其實這個問題真的讓臺東人很驚訝，因為這整個生態會造成很大的影響，我想我們一起來守護整個海洋資源、也守護我們東部美麗的海岸線。謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：哪裡。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：謝謝黃建賓委員。","再來我們請張宏陸召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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請主委主委好主委 剛才我聽到蘇僑會委員有跟你談到我們裡面有公帖裡面"},{"start":20.697,"end":24.743,"text":"之前在十一月本席有跟你提起說我們裡面的人可能有問題跟你說你的手中那個茶跟雲網他們知道他們自己的不對"},{"start":36.478,"end":48.41,"text":"出來主修,因為我認為海巡署是對一個國家的重要性,裡面如果有插隊,不應該插隊的人,是非常嚴重。主委是不是剛才所說的,裡面中國的新聞局,"},{"start":58.699,"end":68.983,"text":"這是有三個基礎症那現在要怎麼處理他已經取消了,跟委員報告,他已經在海巡陣場拿到的中國就很方便,給我們補助補助的,給我們一些優惠叫我們去申請,我們沒有金錢嘛所以他是在海巡陣場他拿到的我們現在調查的時候,後來都議員已經取消了"},{"start":86.168,"end":95.454,"text":"這樣就是標示主委我們裡面的人她沒有做機密的工作因為我們很煩惱的就是我們很煩惱的就是剛才委員關心的洩密的共諜那個部分我也是很憂心的因為是怎樣呢 昨天國防部宣佈說他們裡面有60多個人是有中國的新聞證的"},{"start":112.654,"end":125.257,"text":"這是非常嚴重所以我覺得每一個單位我們都要重視去注意尤其現在講在中華民國的台灣以前我們常常會想說國會在你身邊我們都會想說沒有啦 大家又要反對大陸人如果怕也不敢來會回來但是現在就是有理應外合啦"},{"start":142.822,"end":147.988,"text":"有很多問題出在於我們中華民國的台灣尤其在台灣"},{"start":151.522,"end":157.964,"text":"是很恐怖的,所以說主委,他這次你說要補充什麼,因為我看你的看資料,來這是有關那個工地的部分,現在有案件嘛,有的案件是已經有在判刑的階段,還沒定案,有的案件是要在偵查的中間,還沒起訴"},{"start":175.491,"end":184.373,"text":"但是對我們來說,我們看到這個政案已經判刑確定的,那是很嚴重的那很嚴重,去跟人家討錢嘛我有說過,我手頭,因為大家都檢舉了手頭有十個案嘛,我們都一直在對折因為主委,我們尊重手法啦,不然判出來的時候,我們都認為他沒做啦"},{"start":203.197,"end":206.843,"text":"但是看出來的時候你看到他們的惡質真的對到台灣這個海巡的"},{"start":211.912,"end":218.137,"text":"整個的規定,我們非常擔心他用這個金錢,那個養豬是超級的不符合比例的養豬在引誘非常非常重金在引誘你拿一張名片可以兩萬塊、一萬塊你如果說拿我"},{"start":235.93,"end":240.711,"text":"找一個人 我就給你五十萬 這種事實在是很惡劣很惡劣的那前面的地盤 我也覺得很奇怪為什麼在地下之爭 都知道什麼人騙錢 主動在那裡騙錢所以我說理應外合就是這樣 裡面的人知道什麼人騙錢"},{"start":257.216,"end":261.679,"text":"又去補給他來接受來處理啦所以我覺得你們要最先去注意啦不是說實話這樣做說實話也對一個國家非常"},{"start":272.205,"end":283.914,"text":"所以我們在第一線在面對中國我有一個很深的感受我是認為像我們在海上在保護國家在拚命我們都很希望社會給我們很大的力量給我們支持變成一種無形的國防所以我們團結如果中國做不對的時候不要反倒在美我們的政府如果中國做不對就是團結我們要有一個力量去對抗中國"},{"start":301.527,"end":303.889,"text":"太鼓勵我們台灣害損的人了你還說對香港要賣台灣人啊賣這裡的害損工作你還不好啦你能說我害損有共諜?譬如說我害損有共諜我是太害啊"},{"start":317.142,"end":324.485,"text":"做不對的是中國啊你這樣把我們滲透啊所以這時候如果有說到我要叫我們的總統陸大臣我在海運委員會我這樣在看我實在是覺得很痛心絕對是不對的風險嘛你如果用這種流量專民團結來說給中國聽大家也去中國跟他們的關係也都不錯的時候加在他們的面前跟他們說這裡是有的沒有啦剛才說主委你直接說嘛"},{"start":347.112,"end":350.836,"text":"中華民國,台灣的百姓,看清人的面,什麼人敢去救台灣這塊土地的啦,怎麼說不去有意,你還要去替別人愛自己的人,這是非常不應該啦,跟主委,你剛才說痛心,心肝要乾脆,你還要乾脆,因為今年的疫情,對你來說是非常挑戰,"},{"start":374.116,"end":378.638,"text":"因為在這裏我相信每一個人尤其關心我們的綜藝生都有去瞭解因為大家想想久久一般的那些說跟你們的綜藝生增加五十幾億跟你們是要看什麼還是什麼但是在本席看起來跟你們提供好關的我們讓你們做的資料看"},{"start":403.639,"end":412.987,"text":"我們最擔憂的就是海巡執行的設備裡面的高硬鋼那這樣你聽到有發動他們的裝備去處理就好"},{"start":420.863,"end":425.784,"text":"因為我覺得這裏面有很多啦 跟我們接觸的時間也不夠啦就算那裏面有兩隻船你要交集 你也沒辦法交如果沒辦法交的話 這兩隻船會放在海邊好營運啦沒有辦法去保護台灣啦"},{"start":443.188,"end":452.131,"text":"我們當然是希望我沒辦法搞準,你尊重要好好的,有好的準,給我們補貨他如果沒辦法,你又沒錢給人家,怎麼讓你補貨不是說我去賣豬肉給你卸,沒辦法給我們卸本來是年底要搞準,這兩隻其實也是算大錢"},{"start":462.775,"end":465.876,"text":"我們就沒辦法 那個設備呢?設備是這樣的 設備實在是小名的 委員當然啦 這是顧到愛心信 他會保護全台灣 中華民國的安全啊"},{"start":479.04,"end":485.165,"text":"所以我一定要替他報他要買防彈背心他要買短武器所以我一定要替他報他如果我說我不是你選擇我跟你同情你又要怎麼講主委他這個有台有台了有台之後我就必須替他報所以替他報替到最後就是兩下子沒辦法了"},{"start":507.143,"end":510.125,"text":"這兩層說實在很可笑的因為我覺得長久以來都為了國家的保護你一層做好了可以交衛生你不給這個議程紙給他我們連江縣沒有跟議程紙做新聞那是配偶的議員在議會這層配偶的副管理員還是管理員叫他要去跟我們問因為我們連江縣一層軍在那裡驅離"},{"start":536.644,"end":538.784,"text":"一大早以後一大早做的事情就要配合議員去勞軍每一大早其實都要去勞軍有時候我們的時間沒有充足拜託你給我一個宿命"},{"start":561.43,"end":563.554,"text":"尤其這兩隻孫子,我們沒有醫生的時候,未來要怎麼樣?還有這個蝦皮,要怎麼做?醫生?好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":155,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時36分）主席，請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。主委，剛才我聽到蘇巧慧委員跟你探討內部有共諜的問題，之前在11月本席也有跟你提到你們裡面的人可能有一些有問題，你說你手中的資料還在調查，希望他們能夠知道自己的錯誤，出面自首。我覺得海巡署對國家的重要性不言可喻，內部如果涉有不應涉及的人，是非常嚴重的。主委，剛才你說裡面沒有中國的身分證，只是有3個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒護照，是居住證。"],["王委員美惠：那個現在要怎麼處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他已經註銷了。跟委員報告，他們是在進入海巡署之前拿到的，因為中國用各種方法、提供某種補助或優惠，叫我們的人去申請，當時我們沒有禁止，所以他們是進入海巡署之前拿到的，我們這次調查以後，都已經依法註銷了。"],["王委員美惠：主委，這就表示你們裡面的人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：他沒有做機密的工作。"],["王委員美惠：他沒有做機密的工作。我們擔心的是昨天……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們擔心的是剛才委員關心的洩密的共諜……"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那個部分我也很憂心，要很謹慎。"],["王委員美惠：因為昨天國防部也宣布他們內部有62個人持有中國的身分證，這是非常嚴重的，所以我覺得每一個單位都要詳細去注意，尤其現在共諜在中華民國臺灣……以前我們讀書的時候說「匪諜就在你身邊」，我們心想都要反攻大陸了，他們也怕、不敢來、會回去，但是現在有裡應外合，有很多問題出現在中華民國臺灣，尤其在立法院是很恐怖的。主委，針對這一點，你還有沒有要補充什麼？因為我看到你在看資料。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是有關共諜的部分，現在我們有案件，有的案件是已經在判刑的階段，還沒有定讞；有的案件仍在偵查之中，還沒有起訴。但是對我們來講，我們看到先前已經判刑確定的就已經很嚴重了，就是去跟人家要錢。我有說過，經過大家檢舉以後，我手上有10個案子，我們都一直在追蹤，它有斷點，有的查不出來。"],["王委員美惠：主委，我們尊重司法，還沒有判決之前，我們都認為他是無罪的，不過判決出來以後，你看到他們的惡質對臺灣海巡有所影響的整個過程，讓我們非常地擔心。"],["管主任委員碧玲：它運用的金錢額度超級不符合比例，用非常、非常的重金在引誘人。拿1張名片可以換到一、二萬元，或是替它招募到1個人就給50萬，這種事情實在是太惡質、太惡質了！"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：侵入的地步也讓我覺得很奇怪，為什麼地下錢莊都知道誰缺錢，主動去touch？所以對我們來說，我們要很認真、很認真去監督。"],["王委員美惠：所以我說裡應外合就是這樣，裡面的人知道誰缺錢，就通報給它接觸、處理，所以我覺得你們要詳細去注意。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["王委員美惠：說實在的，這樣做讓我們對國家非常擔憂。"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我們在第一線面對中國，我有一個很深的感受。像我們海巡署在海上保護國家、在「拚」命，我們都很希望社會給我們很大的力量來支持，變成無形的國防，所以我們應該團結，如果中國做得不對的時候，我們不能反而回過頭責罵我們的政府，如果中國做得不對，我們更應該要團結……"],["王委員美惠：這才是最重要的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們要有力量去對抗中國。"],["王委員美惠：應該鼓勵我們臺灣的海巡，卻還替中國在罵臺灣人、罵海巡做得不好，這是非常地惡質！"],["管主任委員碧玲：譬如我們海巡有共諜，我們是受害的，做不對的是中國，它滲透我們，所以在這個時候如果因為有共諜，就叫我們的總統下臺，我在海洋委員會，我這樣看，實在是覺得很痛心，這絕對是不對的方向……"],["王委員美惠：很痛心。"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果用這種力量，全民團結來說給中國聽，大家也去中國，跟他們的關係也都不錯的時候，敢在他們的面前跟他們說真實的話嗎？你如果敢說才是力量嘛。"],["王委員美惠：對啦，所以主委你在這裡說希望中華民國、臺灣的百姓看清楚、認清楚，是誰在顧臺灣這塊土地，哪有被人欺負了還在替別人罵自己的人？這是非常不應該。主委你剛剛說痛心、心裡難過，你還更難過，因為今年的預算對你來說是非常挑戰的一年，我相信每一個人，尤其關心我們總預算的人都有去了解，有些人口口聲聲說你們增加預算就增加了五十幾億，還在喊什麼、「哀」什麼？不過本席看起來，從你們提供給我們的資料來看，我們比較擔憂的就是海巡的執行設備，主委，這個部分是九億多，這樣你們今年有沒有辦法處理好船舶的部分？這裡面有很多事項要討論，但我們質詢的時間也不夠，我們還擔心其中這兩艘船的部分，你要交錢也沒辦法交……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒辦法交啊。"],["王委員美惠：如果沒辦法交，這兩艘船會放在海邊無法使用，沒有辦法用來保護臺灣啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們當然是希望當沒辦法交船時，船廠要有好的船塢好好保護……"],["王委員美惠：你又沒錢給人家，人家要怎麼幫你好好保護？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為民間的企業不可能讓你賒帳嘛，那不像是去買豬肉還可以賒帳嘛，他們沒辦法這樣，本來是年底要交船，這兩艘其實也算是大船……"],["王委員美惠：那你們就沒有錢啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們就沒辦法。"],["王委員美惠：設備的部分呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：設備是這樣子，設備真的是生命，委員，我們的後勤……"],["王委員美惠：當然啦，這是有關海巡署的，他們要保護全臺灣、中華民國的安全啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我們一定要幫他們補嘛，他們要買防彈背心、要買短武器……"],["王委員美惠：現在沒錢要怎麼買？"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我們一定要幫他們補，要想辦法幫他們補嘛。"],["王委員美惠：他們如果說我不是刪這個部分，我只是凍結，那你要怎麼說？主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們有刪這個部分。"],["王委員美惠：有刪啦。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有刪，所以我必須幫他們補……"],["王委員美惠：刪這個預算的立委實在很惡質喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以補來補去最後就變成這兩艘船沒辦法交船啦。"],["王委員美惠：這兩艘船說實在很可惜，因為長久以來都是為了保護國家，結果當船做好了、可以交的時候，難道不用把這個預算的錢給你們？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們連江艦沒多久以前才有新聞，是澎湖的議員在議會質詢澎湖的副縣長還是縣長，叫他要去慰問我們，因為我們連江艦一成軍就在那邊驅離……"],["王委員美惠：對啊，都顧得非常好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：一艘船而已喔，驅離之後，漁民捕土魠魚捕得很高興，只有一艘而已，一艘船做的事情就被澎湖的議員叫縣政府要去勞軍，所以每一艘船其實都差很多。"],["王委員美惠：主委，今天時間比較不充足，拜託你給我一個書面。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["王委員美惠：尤其這兩艘船，我們沒預算的時候，未來要怎麼辦？還有設備九億多的部分要怎麼辦……"],["管主任委員碧玲：變成要拖。"],["王委員美惠：以上。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們請管主委好 請主委"},{"start":10.602,"end":37.72,"text":"主委剛剛您在進入會場的時候議場的時候其實我看到有非常多的媒體記者都在追著你詢問現在大家很關心的這個我們的這個海巡弟兄啊或者上次有說要進行大規模的這個調查了解狀況以後看看部隊裡面是不是也有人有這個中國拘留證的問題你有一個方回答我想請主委在備詢台上是不是正式的跟我們說明一下調查的如何"},{"start":39.801,"end":68.262,"text":"後續要怎麼處理好 各位也說明就是說定居證是沒有沒有定居證的沒有定居證所以剛剛說沒有剛剛跟媒體說沒有是定居證沒有那居住證有三位護照也沒有所以護照定居證都沒有但是有三位那這三位你怎麼處置三位是在我們招募之前取得的那已經依法全部都註銷了那會涉及到機敏的業務嗎"},{"start":69.901,"end":72.945,"text":"目前他們沒有都沒有嗎我想是這樣國安的問題是絕對不容跨線的所以他在方方面面的處置上面其實我們都要非常的注意這個是我想政府一體大家都是應該要注意的各單位都應該注意"},{"start":85.979,"end":91.721,"text":"所以我今天除了剛剛要再讓您說得更清楚一點的這個拘留證的問題之外我也想來談談最近大家討論很多的海底電纜都被破壞 頻頻被破壞的這個部分我想先請問主委主委你知道我們這個台灣周圍很依賴在海底電纜嘛那海底電纜有分通信電纜跟電力電纜兩種我們的通信電纜在有多少"},{"start":112.43,"end":115.092,"text":"我們有國際的14條 國內的也有10條 有這麼多的電纜那最近發生的這些電纜被破壞的事件大概有多少嗎"},{"start":129.861,"end":155.855,"text":"數字大概是今年是三千 電力也有一件電力有一件我沒有要抽考你這種問答題備答附送的資料都在這裡我們是跟速發部調出來的資料速發部給我們的資料是從2021年迄今有三十幾件有三十幾件這樣子的狀況而且我問他說為什麼沒有2021年之前的我猜想 我自己猜想的"},{"start":156.255,"end":168.261,"text":"是也許是在2021年之前沒有這麼頻繁發生的狀況所以某程度我們是不是也可以覺得這種發生的頻率已經開始有電纜被破壞的常態化的狀況呢這個數字是速發部給我們的而且我們可以看到每一次這個電纜如果是壞掉的話平均的修復大概就是要2000萬左右那修復的時間還沒有辦法確定"},{"start":183.889,"end":200.081,"text":"所以可以看得出來這其實是一個很嚴重的狀況主委你應該了解這個電纜被破壞的狀況而且這個破壞的電纜還是我們請署長回答也可以看哪一個單位就是這個被破壞的狀況看起來都大概是什麼樣的原因發生的"},{"start":201.181,"end":221.907,"text":"有第一個有自然的斷裂第二個有也其實也有些案例是漁船意外那我們晚進比較高度密駐的是有一些權宜輪是不是故意那以這一次洪太來講那警察官初步調查的結果是認為說是有故意我們也認為說我們長達三天監控他"},{"start":225.868,"end":233.252,"text":"然後這中間有7次我們海巡是海巡嘛好那我其實這就是今天我最重要的問題我們可以看到這個通信電纜是重要的它的破壞頻率在增高而且破壞的看起來大部分是中國的抽砂船中國的漁船還有當然有其他商船自燃的這樣的狀況"},{"start":249.221,"end":277.981,"text":"好 那處理的人是誰第一線處理的都是海巡單位可是這些電纜的主管單位是誰呢這些主管單位我看得出我去調查了一下主管單位海底電纜因為是電信業所以它屬於通船會處理的然後因為海底電纜又是關鍵基礎設施所以其實又歸速發部管那這些船來破壞海底電纜的船是誰呢因為船的出入是屬於交通部航管局所以所有的主管機關都是別人"},{"start":278.561,"end":288.484,"text":"可是去第一線處理的是誰是海巡啊我想請署長或者是主委你可不可以跟我們分享一下你們在實務上你們不是主管機關但是卻是第一線的主管單位你們會不會有困難會不會有什麼辛苦在這裡讓你有時間說明一下"},{"start":294.646,"end":307.563,"text":"跟委員報告 因此就會有一些狀況是非常需要進一步去做跨部會的合作的譬如說晚進的兩艘船所造成的斷纜事件來講的話那前面的順興99跟後面的宏泰168"},{"start":312.669,"end":328.244,"text":"兩艘船的處理程序就不一樣那前面的順興其實他是願意配合我們進港所以他從當天我們抓到他以後他一直配合我們等著要進港就等到第二天的早上他說他們沒辦法再等了"},{"start":328.724,"end":350.373,"text":"那這個時候就是跨部會的程序在當時因為它是解編了我們的海底電纜曾經解編成為非關鍵基礎設施所以那個時候它還不是關鍵基礎設施所以它因為一般的程序所以它進港就有困難在這種情況之下所以經過這個事件以後我們就把它恢復為關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":351.994,"end":369.04,"text":"那恢復為關鍵基礎設施我沒有反對啊我沒有反對它是關鍵基礎設施我只是本來要借用這個單位借用這個時間邀請主委主委剛剛已經講了在法規管理上面的困難處長張署長我也想請你分享一下你第一線地修會不會有什麼問題他們吃苦耐勞真的很辛苦"},{"start":369.62,"end":384.337,"text":"署長我寫寶貴的時間給你要不要分享一下特別跟委員報告那我們對於海域的監控部門海巡署是用我們的雷達包括跟友軍的聯合勤監的部門那對於在自由在海岸區域的這些船舶我們會去監控它另外重要的"},{"start":384.517,"end":406.65,"text":"最近對於海南部分他有一個告警的設施那我們根據這個部分我們去第一個時間點我們發現可疑滯留或者是有可能是這個權益輪迫我們就會派件去處理第一時間就會處理所以我們第一時間我們會主動發現可疑我們就去處理這是本於你們權責嘛在海疆上面發現狀況你們就會過去可是過去了以後要處理的時候你的權你的責"},{"start":408.291,"end":432.225,"text":"清楚嗎?你有辦法處理嗎?你的困難在哪裡?這個部分就是說,如果是我們覺得有犯罪可疑,我們會去驅離第一個部分,如果沒有犯罪可疑,他在那個區域我們先驅離告警然後通知航港單位,做航空管理先去廣播那如果不行的話,我們的海巡署的艦船也會去做相關的驅離跟所有的勤務作為"},{"start":432.645,"end":437.309,"text":"謝謝署長啦我想這個行行都有專業啦因為我在3月的時候也跟海委會跟海巡署這邊討論過我們辦公室有來討論過所以在海上執法是櫃會的專業那定立法地修正法令應該是我們立法委員應該要盡的職責我發現有幾個部分啦齁這個其實我們討論過嘛現在海巡署在執法的時候的困難"},{"start":457.107,"end":460.928,"text":"應該是可以有比如說船隻定位系統GIS為常態且為正確的開發目前無法則導致可以船隻抓不勝抓那我覺得這個就可以討論了嘛然後電信管理法的72條所稱未遂犯定義不明什麼是未遂犯這個部分應該要讓海巡署可以"},{"start":477.814,"end":482,"text":"有清楚的定義讓你們執法能夠順暢也不會遭到這種抗拒等等然後再來現行的處罰沒有包括船隻禁止再進入有國海域扣押或沒入等樣態船隻常常遭到驅離之後又再繞回來防不勝防"},{"start":493.254,"end":509.641,"text":"我想這幾個都是海巡弟兄其實在實務執行上面會發生的狀況所以我非常同意也期待主委因為主委你的經驗和高度其實很可以跨部會剛剛說的這部分我是認為其實應該在進行修法的部分海巡組的弟兄當然裝備要有要錢給錢 要人給人我總是這樣講所以剛剛聽到裝備"},{"start":516.103,"end":524.145,"text":"要真裝備 我就想到我們的預算被煽動這麼多實在是還要說要裝裝備 這實在是很辛苦不過我覺得法規要能夠明確讓各位有權才能夠請他們負責 我覺得這也是必要的啦謝謝委員關心 剛剛委員真的是真知灼見譬如說剛剛提到AIS沒有罰則的部分那我們海巡就去跟航港局聯絡 希望他們去修傳播法"},{"start":541.329,"end":554.064,"text":"那另外譬如說前天之所以被判決沒入的那個抽砂船也是我們去請委員替我們修法所以呢那個船舶最後沒入才會被判決定這樣子"},{"start":556.807,"end":575.488,"text":"謝謝那我是希望主委把這些相關的法條其實是可以請這個在會後給我們一份報告讓整個委員會一起來為您做支持譬如說以電力來講的話現在電力的纜線斷掉它的法則跟電信就不一樣我們要修電業法才能夠對齊這個也是我們也有在溝通好那請提供資料給委員會謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":103,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時26分）謝謝主席，請管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，剛剛您在進入會場的時候，我看到有非常多的媒體記者都在追著你詢問現在大家很關心我們的海巡弟兄或者上次有說要進行大規模的調查，在了解狀況以後看看部隊裡面是不是也有人有中國居留證的問題，對此你有一番回答，我想請主委在備詢臺上正式的跟我們說明一下調查得如何、後續要怎麼處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員說明，定居證是沒有，護照也是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有定居證的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有定居證，所以剛剛跟媒體說沒有是指定居證沒有。居住證有三位，護照也沒有，所以護照、定居證都沒有，但是有三位……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這三位你怎麼處置？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這三位是在我們招募之前取得的，已經依法全部都註銷了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那會涉及機敏的業務嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前他們沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都沒有嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：國安問題是絕對不容跨線的，所以在方方面面的處置上面我們都要非常注意，政府一體，這是大家都應該要注意的，各單位都應該注意。今天除了剛剛要再讓您說得更清楚一點的居留證的問題之外，我也想來談談最近大家討論很多的海底電纜頻頻被破壞的部分，我想先請問主委，你知道臺灣很依賴周圍的海底電纜，海底電纜有分通信電纜跟電力電纜兩種，我們的通信電纜現在有多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有國際……"],["蘇委員巧慧：國際的十四條嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有國際的跟國內線。"],["蘇委員巧慧：國際的有十四條，國內的也有十條，有這麼多的電纜，最近發生這些電纜被破壞的事件大概有多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：大概是今年三件，但是電力的部分也有一件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我沒有要抽考你這種背答複誦的問答題，資料都在這裡，我們是跟數發部調出來的資料，數發部給我們的資料是從2021年迄今有三十幾件這樣子的狀況，而且我問它說為什麼沒有2021年之前的？我自己猜想也許是在2021年之前沒有這麼頻繁發生的狀況，所以某種程度我們是不是也可以認為這種發生的頻率已經開始有電纜被破壞常態化的狀況呢？這個數字是數發部給我們的，而且我們可以看到每一次電纜如果壞掉的話，修復平均大概就是要2,000萬左右，修復的時間還沒有辦法確定，所以可以看得出來這其實是一個很嚴重的狀況。主委，你應該了解電纜被破壞的狀況，而且被破壞的電纜……還是我們請署長回答也可以，這些被破壞的狀況看起來大概是什麼樣的原因發生的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：第一個有自然的斷裂，第二個其實也有一些案例是漁船意外，我們晚近比較高度密注的是有一些權宜輪是不是故意……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：以這一次的宏泰來講，檢察官初步調查的結果是認為有故意，我們也認為我們長達三天監控它，然後這中間……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是誰去監控它？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們海巡……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是海巡嘛！其實這就是我今天最重要的問題，我們可以看到這個通信電纜是重要的，它被破壞的頻率在增高，而且破壞的看起來大部分是中國的抽砂船、中國的漁船，當然還有其他商船或自然的狀況，那處理的人是誰？第一線處理的都是海巡單位，可是這些電纜的主管單位是誰呢？針對主管單位，我去調查了一下，因為海底電纜是電信業，所以它是屬於通傳會處理的；然後因為海底電纜是關鍵基礎設施，所以又歸數發部管。來破壞海底電纜的船是誰呢？因為船的出入是屬於交通部航港局主管，所以所有的主管機關都是別人耶！可是去第一線處理的是誰？是海巡啊！我想請署長或者是主委可不可以跟我分享一下你們在實務上碰到的狀況？你們不是主管機關，但卻是第一線的主管單位，你們會不會有困難、會不會有什麼辛苦？在這裡讓你有時間說明一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，因此就會有一些狀況是非常需要進一步去做跨部會合作的，比如以晚近兩艘船所造成的斷纜事件來講的話，前面的順興39跟後面的宏泰168兩艘船的處理程序就不一樣，前面的順興其實是願意配合我們進港，所以從當天我們抓到它以後，它一直配合我們等著要進港，結果等到第二天早上，他們表示沒有辦法再等了，這個時候就是跨部會的程序，在當時因為它是解編了，我們的海底電纜曾經解編成為非關鍵基礎設施……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那個時候它還不是關鍵基礎設施，在這種情況之下，因為一般的程序，它進港就有困難，所以經過這個事件以後，我們就把它恢復為關鍵基礎設施，那恢復為關鍵基礎設施……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我沒有反對它是關鍵基礎設施，我只是本來要借用這個時間邀請主委，主委剛剛已經講了在法規、管理上面的困難，張署長，我也想請你分享一下，第一線弟兄會不會有什麼問題？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們吃苦耐勞，真的很辛苦。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。署長，我寶貴的時間給你，要不要分享一下？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：特別跟委員報告，對於海域的監控，我們海巡署是用雷達、包括跟友軍聯合情監偵的部分，對於滯留在海纜區域的船舶，我們會去監控它。另外，中華電信對於海纜部分有一個告警的設施，我們根據這個部分在第一個時間點發現可疑、滯留，或者有可能是權宜輪的部分，我們第一時間就會派艦去處理，所以第一時間我們會主動發現可疑就去處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是本於你們的權責嘛。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在海疆上面發現狀況，你們就會過去。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是過去了以後，要處理的時候，你的權、你的責清楚嗎？你有辦法處理嗎？你的困難在哪裡？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：就這個部分，如果我們覺得有犯罪可疑，我們會去驅離，第一個部分，如果沒有犯罪可疑，它在那個區域，我們就先驅離、告警，然後通知航港單位，如果港口有管理就先廣播，如果不行的話，我們海巡署的艦船艇會去做相關的驅離及所有的巡護作業。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝署長。我想行行都有專業，我在3月的時候也跟海委會、海巡署討論過，我們辦公室有來討論過。在海上執法是貴會的專業，制定法律、修正法令是我們立法委員應該盡的職責。我發現有幾個部分，其實我們討論過，現在海巡署在執法時的困難，應該是可以有……比如船隻定位系統（GIS）未常態且未正確地開啟，目前無罰則，導致可疑船隻抓不勝抓。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，要修船舶法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得這個就可以討論了。其次，電信管理法第七十二條所稱未遂犯定義不明，什麼是未遂犯？這個部分應該有清楚的定義，讓海巡署執法能夠順暢，也不會遭到抗拒等等。再來，現行的處罰沒有包括船隻禁止再進入我國海域、扣押或沒入等樣態，船隻常常遭到驅離之後又再繞回來，讓人防不勝防。我想這幾個都是海巡弟兄在實務執行上會發生的狀況，所以我非常同意……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員關心。"],["蘇委員巧慧：也期待主委，因為以主委的經驗和高度，其實很可以跨部會。剛剛說的這部分，我認為是應該進行修法的部分。海巡署的弟兄當然裝備要有，要錢給錢、要人給人，我總是這樣講。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以剛剛聽到裝備……要增裝備，我就想到我們的預算被刪凍這麼多，還說要增裝備，實在是很辛苦。不過我覺得法規要能夠明確，讓各位有權，才能夠請他們負責，我覺得這也是必要的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員關心，剛剛委員真的是真知灼見，譬如剛剛提到AIS沒有罰則的部分，我們海巡就去跟航港局聯絡，希望他們去修船舶法。另外，譬如前天那個抽砂船之所以被判決沒入，也是我們去請委員替我們修法，所以船舶最後沒入才會被判確定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝。我希望主委把這些相關的法條在會後給我們一份報告，讓整個委員會一起支持你們。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。譬如以電力來講的話，現在電力的纜線斷掉，它的罰則跟電信就不一樣，我們要修電業法，才能夠對齊，這個我們也有在溝通。謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，請提供資料給委員會，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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所以現在是無法可管的部分嗎"},{"start":310.679,"end":334.52,"text":"呃我們在在相關的管理上面我們當然會有指引會有各種的管理齁但是罰則的部分我們還需要再再好那這邊我也希望主委我們盡快提出相關的呃這個是屬於交通部門所以我們跟航港局已經有表達而且雙方也都有有過會議在討論那草案也已經有了目前在呃行政院內部的審議程序之中好謝謝主委"},{"start":335.421,"end":359.733,"text":"好那希望說這個相關如果有這樣的情況我相信也是勿往勿中應該有相關的法令來處理這樣的事情那再接下來我請教就是其實我們非常關心海巡這個相關弟兄他們的裝備那之前監察院的調查報告有顯示這個海巡署在之前我們講的比如說驚嚇事件或無人機的採購上有一些採購跟使用上的一個缺失"},{"start":360.473,"end":367.86,"text":"那我想請教現在主委的部分就我所了解之前像這個驚嚇事件的密錄器之前有一些說"},{"start":369.369,"end":395.904,"text":"密錄器不足的用手持的一些部分的問題好像已經有改善蠻多的那我想要請教接下來就是說因為海巡的人員非常辛苦所以未來執行的部分可能會使用類似無人機的一些的方式來去增強這個海巡人員在執行上面的一些方便性那可是之前的新聞有顯示說有些無人機的部分好像採購的部分其實是沒有辦法因應我們這個台灣海域的有些東北季風的所謂的影響"},{"start":396.904,"end":416.944,"text":"會造成我們的一些無人機的一些損傷的部分那我想要請教主委針對無人機不管是在使用人員有沒有人可以操作跟我們現在無人機的一些整個品質的方面有沒有一些精進的報告或是你們現在做的情況為如何或者說你們未來有沒有考慮要擴大無人機的使用範圍"},{"start":419.583,"end":439.682,"text":"增加空中的量能是下一個階段海巡發展也是一個重點我剛剛有報告海空一體的中長期計畫裡面確實我們會希望能夠部署無人機過去海巡算是我們國家政府的內部最早採用導入無人機科技的一個機關"},{"start":440.743,"end":467.738,"text":"所以它在導入的初期都是第一階段的嘗試因此監察院當時對我們會有一些糾正是因為大家都是初期的經驗這是第一點第二點就是無人機基本上它分很多種類型那其中耐浪性比較不足的這一些的類型呢我們目前當然也有那現在有沒有統整就是說我記得我們現在海巡大概現在還有大概有幾台的無人機"},{"start":468.898,"end":491.491,"text":"20台無人機嘛那現在有沒有幾台統整出來說哪一些是不耐這些強風的哪一些未來還要再繼續就是還可以耐強風可以來支持未來我們會增加不同型態的機型好那就拜託說看說會後是不是可以提供個報告讓我們委員知道說我們現在無人機未來在海巡的這些發展上我們會希望"},{"start":492.692,"end":514.39,"text":"因為中台移棄環還沒有被核定所以我們大概就是一個蓋瓜的方向好不好好那最後一個問題實際的關係那其實最重要的就是海委會跟海巡對我們台灣的這個沿岸的防治機制有沒有一些具體的改善措施因為大家最近都知道看到新聞說大陸這個漁船有越界捕魚的情況"},{"start":515.191,"end":530.449,"text":"甚至這個有海警船在我們金門海域活動那我覺得讓這個我們台灣人民感覺到最之前最震驚的一個新聞事件就是有這個中國籍的男子闖入淡水港的事件那當時是就新聞報導"},{"start":531.87,"end":557.624,"text":"所述就是說因為當時沒有就是說有發現可是不知道這個船是大陸的漁船然後讓這個男子中國型男子有闖入我們淡水港的事件那後續整個我目前看到新聞還有會所詢問好像這個的防堵機制有沒有一個更完整的一些防堵機制是不是可以諸位"},{"start":558.224,"end":573.23,"text":"各位委員報告就是說淡水河這個是人為的疏失但是那個疏失是出在那個判斷就是以當時是白天然後直衝而入然後他們從這個整個判斷上把它判斷成是我們的漁船回來沒錯沒錯所以就是說判斷的問題嘛"},{"start":574.21,"end":596.198,"text":"但是有的部分它是因為裝備設備的不足但是我剛有報告過你看我們四次軍演每一次的軍演配合的小目標偷渡我們都抓到其實很多抓到的並沒有揭露出來基本上我們海巡在這個部分的防守是值得人民"},{"start":596.858,"end":623.708,"text":"信賴所以是說主委我想要說的是過去從人為判斷是有沒有改變的一些方式是不是可以在這邊稍微跟民眾說明一下第一個我們在案記我們在案記的監測的部分我們有加強未來也會更加強那未來加強的部分會需要一點時間但是單獨的個別的熱點的加強的部分我們陸續有在做會比較快好謝謝主委那大家辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":58,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時15分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請海委會管碧玲主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。主委辛苦了，首先本席在這邊代表立法院跟我自己感謝海委會海巡同仁的辛苦跟辛勞。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：依據海委會今天的業務報告第二頁，中國大陸的公務船舶、軍艦常態性的在我國周邊海域活動，頻繁的進行軍演及灰色地帶行動，而最近的新聞顯示，大陸的軍艦或船舶，基本上都有靠近我們臺灣的海域24浬。我想請教海巡署、海委會的想法，現在是不是很多軍艦都會靠著我們的24浬去做……"],["管主任委員碧玲：海警船，不是軍艦。"],["張委員智倫：那是不是有些漁船、船舶會進到我們的24浬？"],["管主任委員碧玲：漁船我們都在驅離，去年驅離了一千六百多艘次。"],["張委員智倫：我的意思是說，他們現在除了這樣類似軍事演習跟公務船舶的巡弋以外，是不是還有在做其他的灰色地帶行動的模式？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝委員。跟委員報告，除了軍演以外，平常除了海警船，其實各類的公務船也都有襲擾的行動，包括他們的海事船舶、科研船，尤其是科研船的頻次也非常的高，甚至還有一些比較機敏的拖船。另外跟委員報告，我們某種程度也掌握了他們民兵船的活動。所以我們對於這些船舶的掌握，其實非常的複雜、非常的龐雜。另外就是我們目前高度密注的是小目標偷渡的背後，因為他們幾乎就是一個模組了，所以小目標的偷渡，尤其是高度的扣合著軍演，過去4次的軍演每一次在當天早上或是前一天晚上都有小目標的偷渡進來，對於這個高度的扣合，我們也在密注。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝，所以非常辛苦。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們舉例不完。"],["張委員智倫：所以主委現在也講到我剛剛的第二個問題，現在包括大陸的灰色地帶行動，我認為海巡跟海委會都很認真，不管在情報蒐集、巡邏部署跟跨部會協調，都非常辛苦。請教主委，我們現在面臨這樣的情況，有沒有想要如何加強跟其他國家，比如日本或美國，在我們臺灣海域安全方面合作，共同來因應現在大陸在我們臺灣海域的擴張行為？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們跟周邊國家確實有很多多邊合作，這些多邊合作，容我請委員諒解，我們會跟委員的辦公室來做詳細的說明。"],["張委員智倫：好，這個可以，沒問題，私下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：公開我們可能就不適合。"],["張委員智倫：沒問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：原則上整個印太地區的和平就是這個區域共同的利益，另外，我們也非常著重人民福祉的創造，也就是救生、救難方面，所以無論是國家安全或是人民的保障，我們都有多邊的合作。"],["張委員智倫：好，那我請教主委，最近有一則新聞，我相信也是很多人所關注的，就是現在大陸有很多擴張行為，包含大陸的漁船或掛臺灣AIS（識別系統）的船舶，讓我們海巡比較難做識別，剛剛您在報告的時候，我好像有聽到，不曉得是不是您口誤，是不是有臺灣的漁船會掛中國的AIS？那它的目的為何？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有。"],["張委員智倫：我剛剛有聽到這一段，但沒有寫在報告裡面，是真的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是一個事實，我們確實是有查獲到臺灣的漁船掛中國船舶的假名。"],["張委員智倫：它的目的為何？你們是怎麼查緝到的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：應該是在大陸的海域捕魚或許對他們來講有所方便，但是我們現在遇到的困擾是在AIS上面的隱匿或訛詐，就是在使用AIS上面的訛詐，這個部分我們還必須去修船舶法才會有罰則，目前沒有罰則。"],["張委員智倫：我了解，所以現在是無法可管嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在相關的管理上當然會有指引，會有各種的管理，但是罰則的部分，我們還需要再修法。"],["張委員智倫：好，也希望主委儘快提出相關的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個是屬於交通部門，所以我們已經向航港局表達，而且雙方也都有過會議在討論，草案也已經有了，目前在行政院內部的審議程序之中──修船舶法。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委，如果有這樣的情況，我希望也是勿枉勿縱，應該有相關的法令來處理。","接下來我再請教，其實我們非常關心海巡弟兄的裝備，之前監察院的調查報告顯示，海巡署在之前我們講的比如金廈事件或無人機的採購上，有一些採購跟使用上的缺失，我想要請教一下主委，就我所了解，像金廈事件的密錄器，之前因密錄器不足而用手持攝影機的問題好像已經改善蠻多的。接下來我想請教的是，因為海巡人員非常辛苦，所以未來可能會使用類似無人機的方式來增強海巡人員在執勤上面的方便性，可是之前的新聞顯示有些無人機的採購其實沒有辦法因應臺灣海域東北季風的影響，所以造成我們一些無人機的損傷。我想請教主委，針對無人機的使用人員，也就是有沒有人可以操作，以及現在無人機的品質方面，有沒有一些精進的報告或是你們現在做的情況如何？或者是你們未來有沒有考慮要擴大無人機的適用範圍？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，增加空中的量能也是下個階段海巡發展的一個重點，我剛剛也有報告，在海空一體的中長期計畫裡面，確實我們希望能夠部署無人機。過去海巡算是我們國家政府內部最早導入無人機科技的機關，所以它在導入的初期都是第一階段的嘗試，監察院當時對我們會有一些糾正是因為大家都是初期的經驗，這是第一點。第二點，無人機基本上分很多種類型，其中有耐浪性比較不足的這些類型，我們目前當然也有，就是它……"],["張委員智倫：現在有沒有統整？我記得海巡現在大概還有20臺無人機，你們有沒有統整出來哪一些是不耐強風的？哪一些是可以耐強風未來還可以繼續執勤的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來我們會增加不同型態的機型。"],["張委員智倫：好，那就拜託會後是不是可以提供一份報告，讓我們委員知道無人機未來在海巡的發展上需要……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為中長期計畫還沒有被核定，所以我們大概就是一個概括的方向好不好？"],["張委員智倫：好，因為時間的關係，最後一個問題，其實最重要的就是海委會跟海巡對臺灣沿岸的防堵機制有沒有一些具體的改善措施？大家最近都看到新聞說大陸漁船有越界捕魚的情況，甚至有海警船在金門海域活動，我覺得之前讓臺灣人民感到最震驚的新聞就是有中國籍的男子闖入淡水港的事件，就新聞報導所述是當時雖然有發現，可是不知道這艘船是大陸的漁船，然後就讓這位中國籍男子闖入淡水港。就我目前所看到的新聞還有對海委會的詢問，這方面有沒有一個更完整的防堵機制，是不是可以請主委說明？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，淡水河這個事件是人為的疏失，但是那個疏失是出在判斷，就是當時是白天，然後它直衝而入，他們把它判斷成是我們的漁船回來……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，所以就是判斷的問題嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：有些部分是因為設備不足，但其實我剛剛也有報告過，你看我們四次軍演，每一次軍演所配合的小目標偷渡我們都有抓到，其實很多抓到的並沒有揭露出來，基本上海巡在這個部分的防守是值得人民信賴的，有時候沒有辦法做到零漏接，但是我們幾乎要做到零漏接。"],["張委員智倫：我想要說的是過去的人為判斷有沒有一些改變的方式，是不是可以在這邊稍微跟民眾說明一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：第一個，我們在岸際監測的部分有加強，未來也會更加強，未來加強的部分會需要一點時間，而單獨的、個別的熱點加強的部分，我們陸續有在做，這部分會比較快。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委，大家辛苦了，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["主席：請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-11","speakers":["張宏陸","張智倫","蘇巧慧","王美惠","黃建賓","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳琪銘","陳冠廷","徐富癸","鄭天財Sra 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已經有6年囉從111年到116年"},{"start":96.494,"end":101.158,"text":"然後還有海洋基礎資料調查船興建計劃112年到118年6年的計劃但是我們看一下我們去年在審查預算的時候我們就發現國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建設計劃從111年開始112年就大幅修正你們的計劃要調整13億餘元並且你們要展延期程18個月"},{"start":124.798,"end":142.978,"text":"113年你們的執行率就不如預期了呀再來看海洋基礎資料調查船興建計畫從112年就有預算執行率非常低的問題請問副主委為什麼不先解討這兩個計畫執行的問題反而急於意識要設置行政法人請簡短說明"},{"start":147.162,"end":149.604,"text":"因為在施工的過程當中也發現第一個整個的那個地基的部分因為靠海"},{"start":165.579,"end":180.076,"text":"包括所謂的工程我們那個整個基樁要往下再挖深還有包括基柱要再加所以這以後不會有形成問題嗎不會你席在百元成立以後你就可以就不會有這個地層下旋的問題了嗎所以我們現在工程的部分就是要解決這個"},{"start":181.798,"end":198.828,"text":"公法啦我們可以看到你的計畫才剛上路就不斷地更改一直加錢還拖延時程結果你們的執行率是一塌糊塗然後接著我要跟你來談人的問題我們有看到非常多的行政法人董事長不是部長就是政委"},{"start":199.668,"end":223.857,"text":"不是副首長就是政事整個法人變成了監督機關的延伸而我們行政法人的設立本來他的目的是要補足政府之不足民間的不吉重點是要非常專業要中立還有有效率請問一下副主委我們的海洋科技營運中心的董事長會有主委還是底下的政事兼任"},{"start":225.742,"end":252.123,"text":"請問目前的規劃是有主委對嘛這個因為監督機關也要討論說誰比較合適啦好啦我知道啦我要講的是規劃設置好公開公平公正的人選招聘機制就應該是要來好好監督行政法人結果呢你們的本這個部長次長參加了你要怎麼樣監督呢"},{"start":253.359,"end":269.688,"text":"然後整個行政法人搞成習政機關的黑機關這還有獨立性、專業性可言嗎?你們雖然表面上說人事任用表面上是有彈性的實際上我們看到一片綠油油你們更誇張的是還說規劃編制要100人然後未來可以依照營運情況來增加"},{"start":277.833,"end":292.187,"text":"你們為什麼不讓人認為這是預留人士大門然後方便塞人養人的計畫我們來看一下以前往例行政法人長期以來一直以來就有行政不章的問題我們在114年度審預算的時候我們看到的是"},{"start":297.652,"end":323.434,"text":"國家表演藝術中心國家電影視聽文化中心國家太空中心文化內容策進院等等多個行政法人通通被發現幾乎都是要全面仰賴政府的補助他的收入結構極度單一更諷刺的是連他們自己提出的績效評鑑報告他們都非常的承認也坦承說自籌裁員嚴重不足"},{"start":326.156,"end":335.404,"text":"這個完全是背離了行政法人 應該要有的自主營運還有永續發展的精神請問一下 設置行政法人的目的是為了什麼?"},{"start":337.184,"end":364.401,"text":"這個部分當然一開始需要有政府支援的挹注啦因為這個是一個國家的關鍵核心你不要再講這些了當時在成立這些法人的時候他們也都這麼講啊可是呢他們現在講什麼他們現在都講說我們的居校請願報告他說自籌裁員嚴重不足耶那你們以後會不會自籌裁員也嚴重不足呢請問一下會有一個估算報告會提供到這個委員會來"},{"start":365.58,"end":381.056,"text":"所以你的意思說以後不會營運不足囉你們會變成另外一個政府的負擔請問會不會 如果會怎麼辦我要提醒副主委啦國家海洋科技營運中心在115年雖然你們只有編6300多萬但是118年預算你們就膨脹到了3.6億"},{"start":388.764,"end":407.907,"text":"而且這還是預估喔這樣的征服不僅僅令人質疑預算控管的合理性尤其你們一半的費用都用在人事費也是讓人擔心未來會不會變成一個高耗能低效益的行政法人然後放眼一看全部都是綠油油"},{"start":408.988,"end":423.999,"text":"副主委我告訴你我們不是反對海洋科技我們也沒有反對但是呢我們是要監督而且你們做的事情是要配套然後我們真的不希望它是一個掛羊頭賣狗肉的機構如果你們這一套邏輯成立的話那麼以後是不是每一個部會都可以設立行政法人那麼以後立法院要怎麼實質監督你們"},{"start":436.867,"end":459.755,"text":"我們的傳播實驗室跟調查團的部分這個專業人力就是專業人才的那個需求度的部分非常的高那這個不是一般的就是說考試啊或什麼禁用可以你剛剛都已經說了啦剛剛也有委員在質詢你們這部分所以最後我要說的是請你們把制度設計清楚"},{"start":460.495,"end":483.807,"text":"把責任理清楚然後把財政影響講清楚然後再來談立法最後人民的納稅錢不是給執政黨隨便拿來亂花用的我們看到以前的行政法人的績效不彰就可以清楚知道我不希望你們未來成立之後又變成另外一個這個不彰的行政法人可以嗎"},{"start":485.027,"end":498.261,"text":"請你們負責任請你們負責任好不好請你們把我剛剛以上講的這幾個通通收來立法院了之後我們再來評估要不要立法我們的立法宣布委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝高金委員接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時47分）有請副主委。"],["主席：有請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：副主委，你在立法院多久了？可以大聲一點嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員是說在海委會？"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：二年多。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你也算是資深的公務員，對不對？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我是基層公務員上來。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我在立法院23年了，我真的第一次看到行政院可以開口跟我們所有行政部門說，不要提出解凍案，這太離譜了，我看到你剛剛那無奈。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員，146案我們的確需要時間。"],["高金委員素梅：不管幾案，我們審完預算，到現在已經多久了？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：但因為今年公告的時間比較……"],["高金委員素梅：多久了？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：今年3月才公告嘛？對不對？"],["高金委員素梅：好了，不要在這裡辯解啦！你們既然覺得我們海巡弟兄的安全這麼重要，你們早就應該要提出來了。這是我在立法院23年來，已經開議了，然後都不排解凍案，真是莫名其妙。","今天我要審查海洋委員會的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例，我看到你們拿專業人才、組織彈性、政府監督、還有公共利用來說明設置行政法人的優勢，我覺得潛藏非常多令人質疑的地方。","首先，在業務方面，我們來談一下，「國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建置計畫」已經快6年了，從111年到116年；還有「海洋基礎資料調查船興建計畫」從112年到118年，6年期的計畫。但是我們看一下，去年在審查預算的時候，我們發現國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建置計畫從111年開始，112年就大幅修正你們的計畫，要調增十三億餘元，並且你們要展延期程18個月，113年你們的執行率就不如預期了。再來，海洋基礎資料調查船興建計畫從112年就有預算執行率非常低的問題。請問副主委，為什麼不先檢討這兩個計畫執行的問題，反而急於一時要設置行政法人？請簡短說明。"],["陳院長璋玲：謝謝委員關心，剛剛提到執行率的問題，其實我們現在船模的部分已經有在興建了，主要是設在興達港比較靠近海的地方。在施工的過程當中也發現了幾個問題，第一個整個地基的部分，因為靠海，工程整個基樁要往下再挖深，還有基柱要再加寬……"],["高金委員素梅：這以後不會形成問題嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：不會。"],["高金委員素梅：行政法人成立了以後，就不會有地層下陷的問題了嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：我們現在工程的部分就是要解決這個問題，這個工法的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：好，我們可以看到你的計畫才剛上路就不斷地更改，一直加錢，還拖延時程，結果你們的執行率是一塌糊塗。","接著，我要跟你談人的問題，我們看到非常多的行政法人，董事長不是部長就是政委，不是副首長就是政次，整個法人變成監督機關的延伸。我們行政法人設立本來的目的是要補足政府之不足、民間的不及，重點是要非常專業、中立、有效率。","請問副主委，海洋科技營運中心的董事長會由主委還是底下的政次兼任？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：目前的規劃是由主委。"],["高金委員素梅：對嘛！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：因為監督機關也要討論誰比較合適。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，我知道啦，我要講的是規劃設置好公開、公平、公正的人選招聘機制，就應該要來好好監督行政法人，結果你們的部長、次長參加了，那要怎麼監督呢？整個行政法人搞成行政機關的黑機關，這還有獨立性、專業性可言嗎？你們雖然說人事任用表面上是有彈性的，實際上我們看到一片綠友友，你們更誇張還說規劃編制要100人，未來可以依照營運情況增加，你們就會讓人認為這是預留人事大門，方便塞人、養人的計畫。","我們來看往例，行政法人長期以來一直就有行政不彰的問題。在114年度審預算的時候，我們還看到國家表演藝術中心、國家電影視聽文化中心、國家太空中心、文化內容策進院等等多個行政法人，通通被發現幾乎都要全面仰賴政府的補助，它的收入結構極度單一，更諷刺的是，連他們自己提出的績效評鑑報告都承認、也坦承自籌財源嚴重不足，這完全背離了行政法人應該要有的自主營運，還有永續發展的精神。","請問一下，設置行政法人目的是為了什麼？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：報告委員，這個部分當然一開始需要有政府資源的挹注，因為這個是一個國家的關鍵核心技術……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要再講這些了，當時成立這些法人的時候，他們也都這麼講啊！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：在船模實驗室跟……"],["高金委員素梅：可是他們現在講什麼？他們現在績效評鑑報告都講自籌財源嚴重不足，請問一下，你們以後會不會自籌財源也嚴重不足呢？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：剛剛有提到會有一個估算報告提供到委員會來。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的意思說，以後不會營運不足？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們會來……"],["高金委員素梅：你們不會變成另外一個政府的負擔？請問會不會？如果會怎麼辦？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們還是要有一段時間挹注資源，這個攸關海洋科技營運中心設施的興建……"],["高金委員素梅：我要提醒副主委，國家海洋科技營運中心在115年雖然你們只有編六千三百多萬，但是118年的預算就膨脹到3.6億，而且這還是預估。這樣的增幅不僅僅令人質疑預算控管的合理性，尤其你們一半的費用都用在人事費，也讓人擔心未來會不會變成一個高耗能、低效益的行政法人，放眼一看，全部都是綠友友。","副主委我告訴你，我們不是反對海洋科技，我們是要監督，而且你們做的事情要有配套，我們真的不希望是一個掛羊頭賣狗肉的機構。如果你們這一套邏輯成立的話，以後是不是每一個部會都可以設立行政法人？以後立法院要怎麼實質監督你們？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，我們船模實驗室跟調查船專業人才的需求度非常高，這個不是一般的考試或進用就可以……人事費用是要留才。"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛都已經說了，剛剛也有委員在質詢你們這個部分。最後，我要說的是，請你們把制度設計清楚、把責任釐清楚、把財政影響講清楚，然後再來談立法。人民的納稅錢不是給執政黨隨便拿來亂花用的，我們看到以前行政法人的績效不彰，就可以清楚知道，我不希望你們未來成立之後，又變成另外一個績效不彰的行政法人，可以嗎？請你們負責任。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：請委員支持我們同步立法……"],["高金委員素梅：請你們負責任。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：會，我們會把相關的機制組建好。"],["高金委員素梅：你們把我剛剛以上提到的這幾個資料，通通送來立法院之後，我們再來評估要不要立法，謝謝。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們的立法希望委員支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金委員。","接下來請許宇甄、許宇甄委員，許宇甄委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","鄭天財、鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及聯席委員會。本次的會議就到此結束，許宇甄所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160320","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160320","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a45c2634d32fae248fdb8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b49ea4ab2856517d8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:40:13 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問題，也跨部會在協調，因為其實這涉及很多單位，大家可能會覺得我只要做好我自己這部分，但是就產生這樣的問題，而且是三、四十年累積下來就這樣了。我們真的在處理，但是還要一點點時間，因為這第一個需要經費，第二個需要很多部會、中央跟地方的整合，這要一點點時間，我們現在工作了幾個月，快要收尾了、快要完成了。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我們希望這個問題能夠解決，因為我也提了很多次，當時是說有GPS的衛星定位，所以應該很容易去監測，結果真的有一些不肖業者就是用繞單的方式，或者是先在某個地方堆置，堆置完之後，再載到其他非法的堆置場去。所以，我覺得這個問題應該要確實解決，要不然在我們彰化像我剛剛講的八卦山的山谷或彰化西南角沿岸地區，可能有一些廢棄的魚塭、廢棄的農田都被堆滿了廢棄土石方或廢棄物，有的根本不知道它是什麼東西。所以麻煩部長跟國土署要儘速將這個問題解決。"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們在進行當中，那大概還要再幾個月，我跟委員保證，這個是我們正在進行的工作，有結果會第一個跟委員報告。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。","另外，川普總統在4月初提出對等關稅，那在他上任的時候，也提出要退出巴黎氣候協定，我想請教，我們臺灣針對淨零碳排或碳費，會不會因為美國提出要退出巴黎氣候協定而做什麼樣的調整？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為碳費我們初期是三百塊、一百塊、五十塊，而且又有高碳洩漏，我們是希望不要有綠色通膨，造成企業很大負擔，用先求有再求好的概念去推動這個制度，目前我們也有評估可能受到產業影響的公司，其實影響很低，但是也有一些產業可能就活不下去。這個還要等關稅的最後結果出來之後，我們應該會來做滾動的調整，等於還是要幫助產業，但這也是一個轉型的機會。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以你們會做一個調整？"],["彭部長啓明：如果說最後的報告出來，對我們臺灣衝擊很大，那政府是企業的後盾，我們當然必須要來處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，因為臺灣是外銷取向的國家，4月3號川普總統提出對等關稅這個議題，彰化這邊以中小企業居多，其實他們也都很擔心，有的甚至都沒有單，所以，未來臺灣可能在某方面，對於我們的碳費或者美國針對淨零碳排，他們自己本身都有做一些調整的話，那有沒有可能我們也會做滾動式的調整，這也是地方非常關心的，因為總是要讓地方能夠活得下去，如果說活不下去的話，其實也會影響到很多勞工的生計。我也希望環境部針對這一部分，因為一方面我們要跟國際接軌，另一方面又要讓地方產業能夠符合我們的規定，又可以生存下去，我覺得環境部也扮演一個非常重要的角色。"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個部分我們會滾動式的來調整，就是我們會做企業的後盾，因為企業真的經營不下去也不是我們樂見的，所以我們一定會做滾動式的調整來協助。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。","另外，我想請教一下，我們原本說2030年達到階段減碳目標，就是逐漸減碳，請問部長，你覺得對2030年這個減碳的目標有沒有鬆動或者你還是充滿著信心？或者是你覺得未來可能也會做一些調整？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，今天我有公布一個數字，就是2023年我們的減碳跟2005年比是4.64，上一個數字是1.8，表示我們臺灣的減碳是有成效的，那我們目前預估2024年大概是5到6，然後2025年大概是8到9左右這樣一個幅度，如果按照這個趨勢下去，28加減2，我是希望至少要28，但是萬一整個局勢變差，有可能會減2到26，所以我們給它一個範圍。但是說真的，現在關稅的衝擊可能比這個還要來得大，所以等到最後結果出來，說不定我們還要再建議是不是要再多1%或2%，這個的確是有可能，我不是那麼剛硬的說一定要怎麼樣，臺灣要生存還是最重要的。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。我在這邊也是感謝部長，因為你是一個肯做事的人，所以我剛剛提到的地方污染的議題，希望要有一些政策、對策來積極的解決。另外，因應美國關稅的議題，針對環境部原本所提出來的一些政策，我覺得應該要有滾動式調整，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言。","接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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從產業來看大多數都集中在高污染的高風險的產業排放高污染 排放高風險"},{"start":78.874,"end":87.36,"text":"我講白了你們所列的這一些資料裡面就是水泥製造業水泥窯然後再來就是鋼鐵冶煉業電糊爐"},{"start":92.047,"end":114.064,"text":"再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐再來是石化產業大家都知道我剛剛所念的石化產業鋼鐵業水泥業焚化爐事業廢棄物焚化爐這些都是大財團大產業大業主"},{"start":117.967,"end":124.811,"text":"然後管制它必須24小時不間斷都要及時監測它的空污排放為什麼 因為它高風險 高污染可是我們2017年就講了而且廠商在你們設定的DAS系統裡面可以篡改資料2017年我們就講了 揭露了台塑的六清廠"},{"start":147.265,"end":152.929,"text":"屢屢發現超標 然後一超標就屢屢手動修正然後篡改數據 偽造監測數據我們做這個是不是要做什麼如果可以這樣 所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改"},{"start":167.426,"end":181.264,"text":"那我们24小时的监测算什么所以这不是一个小事这是整个连续监测制度连续监测系统的信任的崩解"},{"start":182.438,"end":184.319,"text":"所以我現在是為了怕部長你不知道所以我再remind一下"},{"start":202.073,"end":204.776,"text":"這個SIMS系統透過DAS的這個系統還要負責收集運算壓縮分類上傳把整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面來"},{"start":218.67,"end":232.836,"text":"所以這個SIMS的連續自動監測系統即時監控污染數據但是數據不是直接就連線到你這裡來喔它還需要中介系統就是DAS這個系統DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統"},{"start":238.41,"end":255.901,"text":"如果這個監測的大腦就是大使的系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞那政府接收這些連續監測的數據會失真請問你在後面拍我的是哪一個單位"},{"start":257.267,"end":285.039,"text":"你是誰 對啦你是哪個單位 時間暫停一下主席 我有權宜問題要請教當我在質疑這個 質詢這個問題為什麼有人一直問啊請問我只是請教一下我需要了解在座對我們立法院的問政是公開可受公平但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題主席請裁示剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎"},{"start":286.776,"end":308.704,"text":"對啦 哪個單位 哪個記者 哪一報可以告訴我們嗎我們議場裡面也發生過啊游志斌這種事件啊那我想要了解 主席請裁示這個權宜問題先處理特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者叫什麼名字 處理處理主席請你裁示啦"},{"start":316.147,"end":331.742,"text":"請問一下是記者嗎我只是想要了解而已哪一個報 哪一個傳媒記者叫什麼名字我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬沒有私下報告公開在這裡我想要公開了解"},{"start":339.571,"end":350.988,"text":"主席我不希望在這裡佔用大家太多時間但是關係到委員的也有可能是人身安全的問題啊我接下來要打財團啊要就針對鋼鐵業石化業"},{"start":355.222,"end":370.955,"text":"企業費企務這個大財團我就是要針對他們啊是不是可以麻煩報哪一個那個 主委這裡面來的每個人是誰你都搞不清楚狀況這樣行嗎立委在這裡問政沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎不好意思各位就在那邊講說但是你是哪來來給他給主席看一下可不可以交給主席看一下"},{"start":385.377,"end":385.798,"text":"台灣時報我為什麼要講這個"},{"start":408.533,"end":421.083,"text":"我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下你們2009年20年就是109年我從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案發現你們SIMS連續監測系統是造假騙人命的那樣你們終於在2020年在SIMS的管理辦法第31條明定了你們修改的辦法"},{"start":436.263,"end":450.496,"text":"你們的大使系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試而且要取得合格的證明文件你們的修改文字如下 應經中央主管機關認可的"},{"start":452.958,"end":469.049,"text":"驗證審查機構依規定程序與事項完成系統測試並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明不但如此你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構做複查連續兩年合格的才可以免查否則要重新送審而且這一個修正從114年1月1號正式施行也就是"},{"start":481.226,"end":496.212,"text":"你們從2017年我們揭露2020年才要改而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行但是部長你現在你上任的時候你做了什麼你做了什麼好 包委"},{"start":499.881,"end":519.676,"text":"你把這一個辦法整條刪除走回頭路經過百年才會改的這百年的時間給你行政部門給你環境部可以有時間慢慢的因應給你八年的緩衝期我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業鋼鐵業、水泥業"},{"start":528.908,"end":534.411,"text":"然後你們這八年做了什麼八年後你直接說刪除 刪除你也稍微解說一下"},{"start":542.453,"end":567.082,"text":"保證你不知道喔 會害羞的人到底要做什麼你不知道 這重大政策重大變革而且走回頭路而且包庇業者推卸責任我今天很生氣喔我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好結果你2025年近年幾條辦法的文字全部刪除所有的管制全部刪除你現在是怎樣"},{"start":570.083,"end":571.707,"text":"給你們爭笑還是給你們爭笑?你在玩假的你把連續階段系統還當兒戲"},{"start":579.585,"end":605.386,"text":"保證你講 你不知道喔 你可以說你不知道這叫政府單位來回答這個細節我待會請我們市長來報告細節不需要報告不是 包委員第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家監測造假不要不手軟 你不要講這個你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定你基於什麼樣的考量我知道啦 我告訴你 我們來質詢我來質詢是不是青菜來質詢的"},{"start":608.669,"end":622.549,"text":"林淑媛你之前,如果沒有專業,我今天來跟你講這個,你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除,你知道嗎?後天你不知道啦,你夾業務單位回去,我不跟你講,你被下面的人欺騙,欺上瞞下。"},{"start":624.412,"end":639.988,"text":"他們用手把這一個辦法刪除 我唸給你聽非常暴力 非常的赤裸裸 非常直接你們說現在能夠擔任大使審查機構第三方驗證的單位 太少了沒有人力來消化這個審查量"},{"start":644.893,"end":649.437,"text":"中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中學中"},{"start":663.05,"end":673.702,"text":"喔 你們這麼聰明 聰明到用這個理由然後就把審查制度改掉 改成說 啊沒關係啦這個DAS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了當初也是這樣耶"},{"start":679.195,"end":682.957,"text":"二零一七年 也是交給地方政府去監討我講比較難聽的 台塑六清為例台塑六清地方的建設是需要一個六強申請 拜託你來幫我們補助鄉鎮的幾個幾個鄉鎮的台塑六清不可以忘記了一間人說的館長 一間人說的議長 一間人說的鄉長是這樣"},{"start":706.656,"end":716.766,"text":"你們現在說我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業不要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐我們的連續監測系統抓到這裡,交給地方政府去監督查核2017年抓到這裡,地方政府都沒有領略包庇地方政府也沒有專頁可以做"},{"start":730.41,"end":750.487,"text":"然後人家不斷的造假所以才找到說環境部願意要第三方審查確保公平專業和不偽造不篡改現在你走回頭路讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證這跟你當初"},{"start":753.69,"end":771.585,"text":"把整條辦法刪光的公告的審查機制不一樣 天跟地的差別啦差別是天跟地耶好 我跟你報告完看理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了部長你怎麼看"},{"start":772.779,"end":778.869,"text":"你的任內1月1號要施行1月2號把條文都改掉都不用做了整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假沒那麼嚴格"},{"start":787.618,"end":802.492,"text":"這樣空污喔不是用愛發電而已用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣啦連續監測系統要監測什麼東西因監測的東西各種製程很多包括二氧化硫總還原硫這個"},{"start":805.216,"end":826.924,"text":"氮氧化硫 氯化氫 氯氧化氮揮發性有機物質 排放流率等等這些東西直接排放到空氣當中污染 污染外部化 環境成本外部化然後然後叫人民去承擔我們也知道 對不對你是自己這樣高風險 高污染的"},{"start":833.891,"end":857.26,"text":"我們才做24小時連續監測高風險 高汙染的 你把連續監測的制度 系統 這樣改掉好不容易國家要認真把關了 制度都沒變喔只是曾經發生了篡改 因為廠商台塑篡改所以我們才要改善這個"},{"start":859.157,"end":877.267,"text":"監督的系統要確保它是正確不能篡改沒有改變制度 只是認真去執行而已現在你 現在怎麼樣 你是要宣示對圖利石化業者 圖利鋼鐵業者圖利失業廢棄物焚化爐的業者圖利水泥窯的業者 是嗎"},{"start":878.547,"end":902.235,"text":"博電你說看你現在是在給我們爭笑的嗎報委員那個之前是大使現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理的這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因啦那委員提出的這個要改的原因不是喔你們對外的公法不是喔你們對外的公法不要再胡說八道喔你們到外講法是可以擔任大使審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了沒有人力消化全部的案量"},{"start":906.997,"end":913.468,"text":"你現在在這裡說 跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔 今天你不可以在這裡亂講你現在是怎樣 1月2號改掉了"},{"start":922.23,"end":945.85,"text":"你知道地方環保局的問題嗎 地方環保局的問題有什麼 你就要搞地方 下放給地方 地方有沒有能力有沒有能力 保證 顯然你都不知道這個事情 知識體大 災團鬆到要死 人民的喜不喜感不要忘了肺癌 佔台灣癌症的這個排行榜 排名是前三大 現在是怎樣"},{"start":949.5,"end":952.421,"text":"不對 你現在是用廢來吸空汙嗎用人民的廢來吸財團的空汙嗎現在你自己用人民的廢自己吸空汙嗎財團賺錢賺的死 人民生病病的要死是這樣子嗎你改這個改什麼不對的 你說給我們聽一下"},{"start":977.492,"end":1004.572,"text":"其實這個第一個是當時這個量能在檢測的是給你八年的時間準備還在講量能給你從2020年制定這一條到現在也四五年了還在講量能我是今年改明年就施行嗎不是喔都正早八年啦 八年的時間你準備你跟我說量能不足 騙笑的全部SIMS監測系統有幾個 空污的"},{"start":1007.355,"end":1024.043,"text":"量能不足 專購是幾個 倒幾個四百五十個 四百五十個五百隻 沒栽掉茶葉你現在這樣說 我覺得笑話 保證還有理由嗎 還有理由嗎現在是怎樣 栽培都這麼爽空污排放出來成本這麼低"},{"start":1034.383,"end":1042.848,"text":"超標了 連罰金都不繳超標了 開罰單而已現在連罰單都可以篡改 改改都連罰單都不划了 騙笑的這不是裝笑的嗎當時我們揭發數據可以造假 還不是你們不是你們去找的 是我們揭發的你們包庇的"},{"start":1062.469,"end":1079.602,"text":"2017年 從以前 從我連續監督系統到2017年揭發揭露這個弊案以前政府都在包庇我們我們揭發了 揭弊了你們還不改 還給我們改回來現在是怎樣啦 你快說啊 保證我很不願意拖時間 但是這個問題這麼嚴重 我沒有辦法接受"},{"start":1086.96,"end":1092.725,"text":"人民也沒辦法接受中華婚姻自己的鄉親也沒辦法接受好 委員這個我回去再來好好的了解再給委員做一個報告可以嗎我先跟你報告一下地方政府因為你要讓地方政府自己透過這個查核程式去檢驗"},{"start":1110.051,"end":1124.208,"text":"我現在說一個地方政府把整個大使的查核責任交給城市交給地方政府環保局來做你們說你們會提供查核工具你們提供城市這個工具是什麼"},{"start":1125.134,"end":1134.302,"text":"那也要有人操作地方環保局人力夠嗎專業夠嗎資料判讀的能力有嗎系統設定錯誤排除一本說明書就可以學會的嗎你們委外的SIMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時你們要寫什麼報告"},{"start":1147.693,"end":1171.448,"text":"你們沒有看你們的限時計畫的監測的團隊去查訪發現各環保局常因人力不足沒有辦法及時掌握公司場所的資料異常仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的餘限和斷線通知"},{"start":1174.919,"end":1180.141,"text":"現在連基本的鈔票問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道就沒人在看啦你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板"},{"start":1186.496,"end":1207.242,"text":"能夠顯示超標缺漏斷線等異常行為但是你們自己去檢查發現現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板即便環保局在第一線還沒有辦法能夠真正及時因應這你們自己去查的時候發現的對你"},{"start":1211.463,"end":1234.461,"text":"你們設計了一個系統那也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心但是問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這一些工具的使用你們的這個報告也提到系統的操作需要模擬程式資料比對模組查核案件的管理系統"},{"start":1235.422,"end":1248.133,"text":"還要能夠比對Modbus TCP協定下的傳輸數據我問你 你自己去集合地方環保局就發現都沒人力 也沒人 也沒專業你現在要再下放這個東西給他們"},{"start":1256.617,"end":1276.157,"text":"就現有的 你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏狀態嘛 異常的問題有些地方環保局呢資料的維護仍然停留在上一個城市的版本都沒有update 沒有更新欸甚至跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致欸"},{"start":1279.204,"end":1284.316,"text":"甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試大使的訊號傳輸查核過程中"},{"start":1291.107,"end":1311.909,"text":"出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況而且明顯不符合SIMS管理辦法的相關規範這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染的狀況"},{"start":1313.55,"end":1322.717,"text":"這不是沒發生過喔 我已經講過了台塑也不是只有六清喔台塑在南亞 在台畫廠都曾經透過大使的軟體 產出不實數據大規模造假 虛報監測值 欺騙政府而下面的人 眼睛都看不見 電台的人每天都在那裡聽不聽"},{"start":1342.523,"end":1347.365,"text":"保定你們不是不知道這些案例啊我們都講過了所以你們2020年才修法所以要求大使的系統必須經過驗證結果今天你把它刪除了"},{"start":1359.298,"end":1386.217,"text":"整個管理的制度又回到業者財團自己裝監測器 自己回報數據然後呢 地方自行查核 六天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天兩天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天一天"},{"start":1389.304,"end":1404.607,"text":"環境部要給我 也不是給我給全國的人民一個說法作為SIMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的大使的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說三就三你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路為什麼走回去包庇業者包庇大財團有利於這些業者"},{"start":1418.792,"end":1442.091,"text":"可以造假的這一條路上呢為什麼為什麼改革到一半1月1號今年1月1號要施行1月2號就中斷不用再做像話嗎太粗魯了太暴力了1月1號要做1月2號整條辦法刪掉通通都改掉"},{"start":1443.271,"end":1451.858,"text":"你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的太難看了嗎吃相難看啊包庇的難看啊不對不覺得嗎包委員那個現在是用資訊系統在做處理啊那那個資料的部分也有在封存在處理那現在這個部分這個通通都資訊系統在處理喔有SIMS全部都資訊系統喔你不要說未來是資訊系統過去也是資訊系統"},{"start":1473.715,"end":1498.506,"text":"不要在這裡用這種文字來呼嚨大家你現在要把改革回來了嗎?改革能夠停滯嗎?還不是改革耶 監察制度都沒有改耶只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來耶叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來耶你把這個漏洞本來要堵起來的 又把它拿掉了荒謬 華天下之大雞"},{"start":1503.01,"end":1513.812,"text":"欺騙人民啊這不是包庇什麼是包庇你現在要怎麼做你說你要回去調查我現在在問你 就我所講的這個你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎應不應該我回去了解好不好 給我一點時間你不覺得應該要 這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的"},{"start":1528.479,"end":1545.245,"text":"我們知道大陸政府 啊我們要蓋一條橋 大陸我們沒有錢啊大廈你可不可以幫我們補助一下好 就是這樣處理的啊 你不知道嗎你叫男人手短的業者 男人手短的政府真的去感到那個業者 可不可能 可不可能不然你說說嘛 更有可能 如果男人手短 吃人嘴軟"},{"start":1557.228,"end":1575.377,"text":"還是要監督什麼?那是爭笑的嘛你們走不進去 我也能懷疑 何理得懷疑?是得多少好錢啦石化產業 大財團鋼鐵業 多股票上市櫃公司的大財團失業費債務 多肥 紅包不知道算多少別再說其他的 對不對你們裡面的人拿錢嗎?不會不會?不要講得這麼快"},{"start":1585.803,"end":1590.167,"text":"這些官僚2017年都還在都是他們一路包庇到現在太難看了好 委員我回去回條解再給你委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝我們林淑芬委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時13分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。大概2017年我在這裡也質詢過，就是產業界、工廠透過CEMS系統做的空污數據造假，那個時候我們就發現這些業者使用的DAHS系統竟然有即時值寫入的功能，而且不只可以即時的傳輸數據，還能夠回頭改掉原始資料庫裡面的資料。那我就要講，依照規定，各公私場所應設置連續自動監測設施，就是CEMS系統，這一些固定污染源從製程來看、從產業來看，大多數都集中在排放高污染、高風險的產業。我講白了，你們所列的這一些資料裡面，就是水泥製造業、水泥窯，然後是鋼鐵冶煉業、電弧爐，再來是事業廢棄物的焚化爐和一般廢棄物的焚化爐，最後是石化產業。大家都知道我剛剛所唸的，石化產業、鋼鐵業、水泥業、事業廢棄物焚化爐等這些都是大財團、大產業、大業主，管制他們必須24小時不間斷，都要即時監測他們的空污排放，為什麼？因為他們是高風險、高污染。","可是我們2017年就講了，而且廠商在你們設定的DAHS系統裡面可以篡改資料，2017年我們就講了、揭露了，台塑六輕廠屢屢發現超標，然後一超標就屢屢手動修正，繼而篡改數據、偽造監測數據，那我們裝CEMS要做什麼？如果可以這樣，所有的監測數據都可以回頭篡改，那我們24小時的監測算什麼？所以這不是一個小事，而是整個連續監測制度、連續監測系統的信任崩解，可以宣告這是造假的，如果可以回頭篡改，那麼這個監測是假的、沒用的、欺騙人民的！我現在是為了怕部長不知道，所以我再remind一下。"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：這個CEMS系統透過DAHS系統，還要負責蒐集、運算、壓縮、分類、上傳，整個連續監測才能夠送到你們部裡面，所以這個CEMS連續自動監測系統能即時監控污染數據，但是數據不是直接就連線到你們這裡來喔！它還需要中介系統，就是DAHS系統，DAHS就是數據採集和處理系統，如果這個監測的大腦，就是DAHS系統可以被廠商動手腳或者是本身設計有漏洞，那政府接收這一些連續監測的數據就會失真。","請問在後面拍我的是哪一個單位？你是誰？對啦！你是哪個單位？時間暫停一下，主席，我有權宜問題要請教，當我在質詢這個問題，為什麼有人……我只是請教一下，我需要了解。立法院的問政是公開、可受公評，但我需要知道為什麼有人特別關注這個議題，主席請裁示，剛才站起來的那一位是記者嗎？對啦！哪個單位、哪個記者、哪一家報社？可以告訴我們嗎？我們議場裡面也發生過游智彬這種事件啊！我想要了解，主席請裁示，這個權宜問題先處理，特別關注我在質詢這個議題的這一個記者是哪個單位的記者？叫什麼名字？請主秘處理，主席，請你裁示。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：請問一下，是記者嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：我只是想要了解而已，哪一個報社、哪一個傳媒？記者叫什麼名字？我想要了解你為什麼對於這個議題特別要拍林淑芬。"],["在場人員：私下跟委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有私下報告，公開在這裡，我想要公開了解。主席，我不希望在這裡占用大家太多時間，但是關係到委員的……也有可能是人身安全的問題啊！我接下來要打財團啊！就要針對鋼鐵業、石化業、事業廢棄物這些大財團，我就是要針對他們啊！"],["主席：是不是可以麻煩報出是哪一個……"],["林委員淑芬：主秘，到這裡面的每個人是誰，你都搞不清楚狀況，這樣行嗎？立委在這裡問政，沒有人身安全的疑慮嗎？"],["主席：不好意思，可不可以就站在那邊講你是哪個……"],["林委員淑芬：來，給主席看一下，可不可以交給主席看一下？沒關係，幫你們報社打知名度也沒關係。"],["主席：好，確定是記者，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：不是，我不能接受，你要告訴我叫什麼名字？"],["主席：臺灣時報。"],["林委員淑芬：臺灣時報還是臺灣醒報？"],["主席：時報。"],["林委員淑芬：臺灣時報？好。","來，我為什麼要講這個呢？從2017年我們揭露了這個弊案，發現你們的CEMS連續監測系統是造假的、是騙人民的之後，在我們不斷的努力要求跟監督之下，你們終於在2020年修改CEMS的管理辦法，在管理辦法第三十一條明定，你們的DAHS系統必須送交中央主管機關認可的第三方審查機構進行測試，而且要取得合格的證明文件。你們的修改文字如下「應經中央主管機關認可的驗證審查機構，依規定程序與事項完成系統測試，並取得驗證審查合格的文件證明。」不但如此，你們的辦法還要求每年至少一次送第三方查驗機構複查，連續兩年合格的才可免查，否則要重新送審。而且這個修正條文從114年1月1號正式施行，也就是你們從2017年經我們揭露，直到2020年才要改，而且是拖了8年到今年的1月1號才要施行。但是部長，現在你上任的時候，你做了什麼？你做了什麼！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：你在1月2號把這一個辦法整條刪除，走回頭路，經過8年才要改的，這8年的時間讓業者、讓行政部門環境部有時間慢慢的因應，給你8年的緩衝期，我們管制石化產業、焚化爐、事業廢棄業、鋼鐵業、水泥業，然後你們這8年做了什麼？8年後你直接說刪除、刪除，你也稍微解釋一下。部長，你不知道喔？下面的人到底在做什麼，你不知道？這是重大政策……"],["彭部長啓明：不是，報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：這是重大變革，而且走回頭路，而且包庇業者、推卸責任，我今天很生氣喔！我們從2017年搞到2020年才搞好，結果你2025年竟然將整條辦法的文字全部刪除，所有的管制全部刪除，你現在是怎樣？把人民「裝痟的」，還是把立委「裝痟的」？你在玩假的，你把連續監測系統當兒戲！部長，你說！你不知道喔？你可以說你不知道，再叫業務單位來回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個細節我待會請我們司長來報告……"],["林委員淑芬：細節不需要報告。"],["彭部長啓明：不是，報告委員，第一個是我對於這種監測造假的是不手軟，所以我們前一陣子也重罰了幾家大型的公司……"],["林委員淑芬：監測造假不手軟，你不要講這個，你告訴我這一條你的政策裁定是基於什麼樣的考量？我知道啦，我告訴你，我來質詢難道是隨便來質詢的嗎？林淑芬的質詢，如果不專業，我敢來跟你說這個？你們用什麼理由把整條辦法刪除，你知道嗎？部長，你不知道啦！","業務單位回去，我沒有要跟你說。","你被下面的人欺騙，欺上瞞下，他們用什麼方式把這一個辦法刪除，我唸給你聽，非常的暴力、非常的赤裸裸、非常的直接。你們說現在能夠擔任DAHS審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了，沒有人力來消化審查量。總共給你8年的時間輔導業者、給你8年的時間準備，到第8年要做了，你說沒有人可以來驗證、沒有人力可以消化、可以把關，你們這麼聰明，聰明到用這個理由就把審查制度改掉，改成說沒關係啦，這個DAHS系統交給地方環保局去查核就好了。當初也是這樣，2017年也是交給地方政府去監督，我講難聽一點，以台塑六輕為例，地方的建設如果需要錢跟六輕申請，拜託你來補助我們呢！它是拿幾億、幾億的給鄉鎮呢！台塑六輕不要忘記──一支煙囪給縣長、一支煙囪給議長、一支煙囪給鄉長，是這樣呢。你們現在說，我們不要再對石化業、不要再對鋼鐵業、要再對事業廢棄物的焚化爐用我們的連續監測系統抓得這麼緊，就交給地方政府去監督查核。","2017年抓到這些弊案，地方政府沒有能力監督，甚至還包庇，地方政府也沒有專業可以做，然後抓到他們造假，不斷的造假，所以才讓環境部願意納入第三方審查，確保公平、專業和不偽造、不篡改。現在你走回頭路，讓地方環保局自己用查核程式驗證，這個把整條辦法刪光的跟你當初公告的審查機制不一樣，天跟地的差別，差別是天跟地耶！好，我跟你報告完了，他的理由就是交給地方政府用程式去跑就好了。","部長，你怎麼看？你的任內1月1號要施行，1月2號把條文都改掉，都不用做了，整個連續監測系統可以繼續造假，沒那麼嚴格了，這樣空污不是用愛發電而已，還是用人民的肺來吸這一些廢氣。連續監測系統要監測什麼東西？各種製程應監測的項目很多，包括二氧化硫、總還原硫、氮氧化硫、氯化氫、一氧化碳、揮發性有機物質、排放流率等等，這些東西直接排放到空氣當中會造成污染，污染外部化，環境成本外部化，然後叫人民去承擔，我們也知道，對不對？你是支持這樣喔？高風險、高污染的我們才做24小時連續監測，高風險、高污染的，你把連續監測的制度、系統就這樣改掉。好不容易國家要認真把關了，制度都沒變，只是曾經發生了竄改，因為廠商台塑竄改監測數據，所以我們才要改善這個監督系統，要確保它是正確不能竄改的，沒有改變制度，只是認真去執行而已。現在是怎樣？你是在宣示要圖利石化業者、圖利鋼鐵業者、圖利事業廢棄物焚化爐的業者、圖利水泥窯的業者，是嗎？部長，你說說看，你現在是在「共阮裝痟的」嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個之前是DAHS，現在其實用資訊系統可以來做處理了，這個就是我所了解當時要改的一個原因，那委員提出的這個……"],["林委員淑芬：要改的原因不是這個喔，你們對外的講法不是喔，不要在那裡胡說八道，你們對外的講法是可以擔任DAHS審查機構的第三方驗證單位太少了，沒有人力消化全部的案量。你現在在這裡講的跟你對外宣稱的理由不一樣喔，今天不要在這裡「烏白講」！","現在是怎樣、你現在是怎樣，1月2號改掉了，你知道地方環保局的問題嗎？地方環保局的問題有什麼你知道嗎？你現在要交給地方、下放給地方，地方有沒有能力？有沒有能力？部長，顯然你都不知道這件事情茲事體大。財團爽得要死，人民的肺部肺癌，不要忘了，肺癌占臺灣癌症排行榜、排名是前三大，現在是怎樣？部長，你現在是支持用肺來吸空污嗎？用人民的肺來吸財團的空污嗎？現在你支持用人民的肺自己吸空污嗎？財團賺錢賺得要死，人民生病病得要死，是這樣子嗎？你們改這個是為了什麼目的的，你們說給我們聽一下。"],["彭部長啓明：其實第一個是當時檢測的量能是不夠的……"],["林委員淑芬：給你8年的時間準備還在講量能！給你從2020年制定這一條，到現在也四、五年了，還在講量能，我是今年改明年就施行嗎？不是喔！總共跑8年了，8年的時間讓你準備，你跟我說量能不足，「騙痟的」！全部CEMS監測系統，有幾個是監測空污的？你說量能不足，那全國是幾個？450個？"],["黃司長偉鳴：500支。"],["林委員淑芬：500支，沒辦法查驗？你現在這樣講，我覺得是笑話！部長，還有理由嗎？還有理由嗎？現在是怎樣？財團都這麼爽，空污排放出來成本這麼低，超標了連罰金都不繳，超標了就開罰單而已，現在連罰單都可以篡改，改一改連罰單都不罰了，「騙痟的」！這不是「裝痟的」嗎？","當時我們揭發數據可以造假，還不是你們去找的，是我們揭發的，你們包庇的，從有連續監測系統到2017年揭發、揭露這個弊案以前，政府都在包庇，我們揭發了、揭弊了，你們還不改，還給它改回來，現在是怎樣？你快講啦，部長。我很不願意拖時間，但是這個問題這麼嚴重，我沒辦法接受！人民也沒辦法接受！彰化、雲林、嘉義的鄉親也沒辦法接受！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我回去再來好好的了解，再跟委員做一個報告。"],["林委員淑芬：我先跟你報告一下，因為你們要交給地方政府他們自己透過查核程式去檢驗，我現在說一個，地方政府把整個DAHS的查核責任交給程式、交給地方政府環保局來做，你們說你們會提供查核工具、你們提供程式，這個工具是什麼？那也要有人操作，地方環保局人力夠嗎？專業夠嗎？資料判讀的能力有嗎？系統設定錯誤排除，一本說明書就可以學會的嗎？你們委外的CEMS計畫團隊到各地方環保局去做績效訪查時，你們要寫成報告，而你們CEMS計畫的監測團隊去查訪時發現，各環保局常因人力不足，沒有辦法即時掌握公私場所的資料異常，仍然高度依賴環境部這裡的警示系統所發出的逾限和斷線通知，現在連基本的超標問題都靠中央提供給他們才知道，地方沒人在看啦！你們即便開發了異常數據儀表板，能夠顯示超標、缺漏、斷線等異常行為，但是你們自己去稽查發現，現場地方環保局的人力跟操作的能量仍然是短板，即便環保局在第一線，還沒有辦法能夠真正即時因應，這是你們自己去查的時候發現的。","第二，你們設計了一個系統，也體現了你們希望推動數據化管理的決心，但問題是地方環保局沒有專業能力可以跟得上這些工具的使用，你們的報告也提到，系統的操作需要模擬程式、資料比對模組、查核案件的管理系統，還要能夠比對Modbus TCP協定下的傳輸數據。我問你，你們自己去稽核地方環保局就發現他們都沒有能力，沒有人力也沒有專業，你們現在還要再下放這個東西給他們，就現有的部分，你們就發現地方環保局常見數據缺漏、狀態碼異常的問題，有些地方環保局資料的維護仍然停留在上一個程式的版本，都沒有更新（update）或是跟廠商實際設備的資訊不一致，甚至部分的地方環保局在進行拔除訊號線測試中斷儀器跟測試DAHS的訊號傳輸查核過程中，出現了監測數據異常或監測數據狀態的代碼異常的狀況，而且明顯不符合CEMS管理辦法的相關規範，這都說明了地方環保局在現場操作上資訊落差沒有解決，甚至可能是故意要掩蓋真正的污染狀況。這不是沒發生過，我已經講過了，台塑也不是只有六輕，台塑在南亞、在台化廠都曾經透過DAHS的軟體產出不實數據，大規模造假、虛報監測值，欺騙政府，而下面的人眼睛都看不到，上面的人耳朵也都聽不到。","部長，你們不是不知道這些案例，我們都講過了，所以你們2020年才修法，要求DAHS的系統必須經過驗證，結果今天你把它刪除了，整個管理的制度又回到業者、財團自己裝監測器，自己回報數據，然後地方自行查核，如果六輕一支煙囪給縣長、一支給議長、兩支給鄉長，現在這樣是要怎麼監督？你們走回頭路，過去就沒辦法了，你現在說這樣子可行，這是在欺騙誰？環境部要給我，也不是給我，而是給全國人民一個說法！作為CEMS連續監測系統制度中最重要的DAHS的第三方驗證查核機制被你們說刪就刪，你要告訴大家你為什麼走回頭路，為什麼走回去包庇業者、包庇大財團，有利於這些業者可以造假的這一條路上呢？為什麼？為什麼改革到一半，今年1月1號要施行，1月2號就中斷，不用再做，像話嗎？太粗魯了、太暴力了！1月1號要做，1月2號就整條刪掉，統統都改掉，你不覺得這樣太暴力嗎？你們不覺得這樣子太赤裸裸的、太難看了嗎？吃相難看啦！包庇得太難看啦！部長不覺得嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在是用資訊系統在做處理……"],["林委員淑芬：過去也是啦！"],["彭部長啓明：那個資料也有在封存、在處理，現在這個部分……"],["林委員淑芬：這個統統都是資訊系統在處理？有CEMS，全部都是資訊系統？"],["彭部長啓明：是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：你不要說未來是資訊系統，過去也是資訊系統，不要在這裡用這種文字來「唬弄」大家！你現在要把它改回來嗎？改革能夠停滯嗎？這還不是改革，監測制度都沒有改，只是你的管理漏洞要堵起來，叫你把你的系統管理的漏洞要堵起來，這個漏洞本來要堵起來，你又把它拿掉了，荒謬！滑天下之大稽！欺騙人民啦！這不是包庇，什麼是包庇？你現在要怎麼做？你說你要回去調查，我現在問你，就我所講的這個，你難道不覺得這個漏洞應該要堵起來嗎？應不應該？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我回去了解好不好？給我一點時間。"],["林委員淑芬：你不覺得這個漏洞絕對不允許嗎？你不覺得地方政府其實是沒有能力的？我們知道地方政府要蓋一座橋但是沒錢，台塑能不能補助我們一點？好。就是這樣處理的啊！你不知道嗎？你叫拿人手短的政府真的去監督那個業者，有可能嗎？有可能嗎？部長，你說看看，有可能嗎？如果拿人手短、吃人嘴軟，這樣要監督什麼？你「裝痟的」嘛！你們的業務單位，我也可以懷疑、合理的懷疑，是拿了多少好處？石化產業、大財團、鋼鐵業都是股票上市櫃公司的大財團，事業廢棄物多肥！紅包不知道送了多少，不要再說其他的，對不對？你們裡面有人拿錢嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["林委員淑芬：不會？不要講得這麼快，這些官僚2017年都還在，都是他們一路包庇到現在，太難看了！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我回去一定去了解，再給委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","接下來請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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這次要船員聘僱的是船長、輪機長、大管還有包括探測長 實施這些專業科技的部分船某的部分也沒辦法 因為船某是涉及非常高精明度的船某的實驗還有設備的安裝 還有實驗數據 還有水下載具的參數"},{"start":98.189,"end":112.547,"text":"那這一部分現在目前來講國海院裡面的人力現在目前編制只有78名而且當時國海院裡面的人也不是在做這些事情OK那現在新的成立了這個營運中心啊這裡頭顯然會不會有公務員嗎營運中心沒有沒有公務員沒有"},{"start":117.532,"end":137.646,"text":"OK那第二個啊是這個你剛剛講原來編制有100人100人含船員嗎應該說我們沒有應該說中心裡面實際上是沒有編制的只是說我們預估基本的預估船母跟調查船需要的人因為你這一艘船蓋完你一定有至少基本的這個配備的船員好那100人含船員"},{"start":138.506,"end":166.447,"text":"對 海船園好 那接下來我看你頭比較具有特色是那個4000噸的那一艘嘛因為100噸跟300噸現在各海洋聯盟的大學應該也有100噸跟300噸了或者是商業的調查船有嗎 有所以你們做這個100噸跟300噸做什麼用前海域的調查還有包括像吳斯曉委員有提到不是 那這些現在海洋聯盟的大學沒辦法做嘛"},{"start":167.616,"end":185.27,"text":"聯盟大學他們主要是做這個像現在國科會下面就是有四招嘛大概都是一千噸八百多噸以上的他們主要是做這個科學研究的各個老師去跟國會申請這個所謂的傳奇那我們現在目前有做一些100噸跟300噸那你們這個100噸跟300噸的接下來這些老師申請研究的時候會來跟你們申請嗎"},{"start":190.715,"end":218.084,"text":"國海運會編預算來執行全海域的調查所以你們不接受其他人來要求嗎應該說目前我們優先順序上還是以我們本要執行本預算的這個全海域調查當然如果說有其他的一個船級上的一個需求的話我們當然也樂意跟學術單位合作提到你們的這個收入嘛那你們如果要接受其他單位的委託或者是借你們的船其實這個船本來是海委會也不是這個中心的啦"},{"start":219.845,"end":227.353,"text":"就要有收入啊 那這個收入當然你就是要會去跟那個海洋聯盟那些或者國科會他們的船會有競爭啊"},{"start":230.06,"end":253.393,"text":"應該說現在目前國科會系統裡面大概學術的學員單位的申請大概只有78可以安排到傳期所以事實上這個是有缺口的所以事實上我們執行的任務跟國科會的那個系統裡面的對象是不同的那我們現在目前本院在執行全海域調查裡面事實上我們也跟內政部還有包括經濟部都有很密切的一個合作因為內政部本身也會做那個定位調查"},{"start":254.253,"end":272.522,"text":"那經濟部他有說因為一些業務上的一個需要也會做一些海洋的一些資源的一個探測那所以在這部分裡面我們互相的一個計畫上的一個支援事實上是會相互補的那如果未來調查船如果能夠成立的話新建完工的話我們希望能夠把台灣整個全台域的一個調查能夠把它整個完工的一個"},{"start":272.622,"end":289.509,"text":"那這一些現有的調達船不管是國家的或者是商業的或者是接下來你們這營運中心的100噸、300噸跟4000噸的船每一艘船的分工啊這個行政院有政務委員在整合嗎"},{"start":292.238,"end":315.755,"text":"如果是海委會自己本身的三艘調查團部分我們這邊跟其他的包括國科會的包括其他大學的應該是未來啦 未來我們會期待成立一個所謂的研究船的一個平台那針對這個所謂的需求端還有包括調查船的這個船期的供應端裡面我們希望能夠建置"},{"start":316.015,"end":335.933,"text":"我是建議你們主動跟這個行政院報告請行政院找政務委員出來整合啦因為接下來的這些調查包括學校老師的調查不要大家弄到最後變成一種狀況就是找商業船比較容易或者找國科會比較容易找這個營運中心很麻煩"},{"start":336.533,"end":356.847,"text":"好 就是不要這種 就是到最後還要去競爭啦 這個競爭是沒有意義的啦那第二個這個4000噸的這一艘啊 接下來會是台灣現有的最大艘嘛 對不對最大艘調查船那這個操作這一艘船的 就是這個營運中心不會委外"},{"start":359.608,"end":369.537,"text":"沒錯好 那你們100個人裡頭啊就是說這出函喔不是 我說你們現在原有編制這100嘛不是編制就是說你們期待會有100的嘛那會不會這些人到最後他們是在發包啊我現在再跟委員澄清一下我們現在100人你們是沒有包括4000噸的船員喔"},{"start":380.362,"end":409.108,"text":"因為我們現在沒有顧到那麼遠因為那個4000噸大概會在118年的時候才完工所以我們現在比較穩健啦穩健的推估我為什麼這樣問這些同仁接下來進到營運中心的同仁會不會再辦招標啊不會啦 因為本身我們就是拚顧船員啊那你們這個營運中心會有設研究人員嗎沒有應該說船舶實驗室會有啦應該說裡面的編制會有船舶跟釣船船員船舶實驗室會再有委託大學老師做實驗嗎"},{"start":410.643,"end":413.384,"text":"因為交通部運輸研究所雖然他是這個公務體系但是他的大部分現在的研究員都在做發包工作"},{"start":427.532,"end":449.148,"text":"都在委託學校老師 顧問公司做研究那就失去了這個設立的意義嘛所以你們如果這個營運中心啊盡可能自己培養自己的研究人員才能夠把人才留住嘛不要到這種高階的研究人員博士啊 助理教授級進來到這個中心他竟然在辦理發包的工作這個就沒有什麼意義了好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（11時31分）請副主委跟院長。"],["主席：請吳副主委及國海院陳院長。"],["王委員義川：請教一下國家海洋研究院的陳院長，在海洋科技營運中心設置條例第三條有規定中心的業務，這些業務會有一些跟你現在主掌的海洋研究院的業務重疊，對吧？對於重疊的部分，站在國家海洋研究院院長的角度，你認為這些業務接下來大家要怎麼分工？"],["陳院長璋玲：謝謝委員提問，其實講重疊是文字上，可是事實上我們在執行上是不一樣的，國海院主要還是負責所謂研究規劃的政策面，目前成立的行政法人主要是想要實地能夠執行全海域的、真正的調查，我想要強調的是全海域的調查。"],["王委員義川：這個沒辦法在國海院做嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：沒辦法，因為全海域調查的調查船是船員，我要講的是，如果是調查船的部分，要聘僱的是船長、輪機長、大管這些人員，還有包括探測長，他們實施的是專業科儀的部分。船模的部分也沒辦法，因為船模涉及非常高機敏度的船模實驗，還包括設備的安裝、實驗數據，以及有沒有要水下載具的一些參數。這部分以目前來講，國海院的人力編制目前只有78名，而且當時國海院裡面的人也不是在做這些事情。"],["王委員義川：OK，現在這個新成立的營運中心，裡頭顯然不會有公務員嘛？"],["陳院長璋玲：營運中心沒有。"],["王委員義川：沒有公務員？"],["陳院長璋玲：沒有公務員。"],["王委員義川：第二個，你剛剛講員額編制有100人，這100人是含船員嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：應該說，中心裡面事實上是沒有編制的，只是我們基本預估船模跟調查船需要的人，因為這一艘船蓋完後一定至少會有基本配備的船員人數。"],["王委員義川：好，那麼這100人有含船員？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，含船員。"],["王委員義川：好。接下來，我看到裡頭比較具有特色的是4,000噸的那一艘，因為以100噸跟300噸來說，現在各海洋聯盟的大學應該也有100噸跟300噸的船，或者是商業的調查船，有嘛？"],["陳院長璋玲：有。"],["王委員義川：所以你們100噸跟300噸的船是做什麼用？"],["陳院長璋玲：淺海域的調查，還有包括像吳思瑤委員有提到的，就是說如果現在水下文資……"],["王委員義川：不是，這一些現在海洋聯盟的大學沒辦法做嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：海洋聯盟大學主要是做這個……像現在國科會下面就是有4艘，大概都是1,000噸、800噸以上的，他們主要是做科學研究的，for各個老師去跟國科會申請所謂的船期，我們目前有做一些100噸跟300噸的是透過委辦計畫……"],["王委員義川：那你們100噸跟300噸的，接下來這些老師要做研究的時候會來跟你們申請嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：不是，是我們自己國海院會編預算來執行全海域的調查。"],["王委員義川：所以你們不接受其他人來要求嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：應該說，目前我們在優先順序上還是要執行本預算的全海域調查，當然，如果有其他船期上的需求的話，我們當然也樂意可以跟學術單位合作。"],["王委員義川：剛剛有提到你們的收入，你們如果要接受其他單位的委託，或者是借你們的船，其實這個船本來是海委會的，也不是中心的，那就要有收入，當然就會跟海洋聯盟或者國科會的船有所競爭啊！"],["陳院長璋玲：應該說在目前國科會的系統裡面，學研單位的申請大概只有70%可以安排到船期，所以事實上這個是有缺口的，而我們執行的任務跟國科會那個系統裡面的對象是不同的。目前本院在執行全海域調查裡面，事實上我們跟內政部、經濟部都有很密切的合作，因為內政部本身也會做地繪調查，經濟部有時候因為一些業務上的需要，也會做一些海洋資源的探測，所以在這個部分，我們在計畫上的支援事實上是互補的，如果未來調查船能夠成立、興建完工的話，我們希望能夠把臺灣整個全海域的調查更完備的補齊。"],["王委員義川：好，現有這些調查船不管是國家的或者是商業的，或是接下來你們營運中心的100噸、300噸跟4,000噸的船，每一艘船的分工，行政院有政務委員在整合嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：如果是海委會自己本身的3艘調查船，我們當然一定會整合。"],["王委員義川：沒有，我是說跟其他的，包括國科會的，包括其他大學的。"],["陳院長璋玲：未來我們會期待成立一個研究船的平臺，針對的需求端，還有包括調查船船期的供應端，我們希望能夠建置一個平臺。"],["王委員義川：我是建議你們主動跟行政院報告，請行政院找政務委員出來整合，因為接下來的這些調查，包括學校老師的調查，不要大家弄到最後變成一種狀況，就是找商業船比較容易，或者找國科會的比較容易，找營運中心卻很麻煩，不要有這種到最後還要去競爭，這個競爭是沒有意義的啦！","第二個，4,000噸的這一艘接下來會是臺灣現有的最大艘，對不對？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，現有最大艘調查船。"],["王委員義川：操作這艘船的就是這個營運中心？"],["陳院長璋玲：對。"],["王委員義川：不會委外？"],["陳院長璋玲：沒錯。"],["王委員義川：好，那你們100個人裡頭……"],["陳院長璋玲：不含……"],["王委員義川：我是說你們現在原有的編制是100人，不是編制，就是你們期待會有100人，會不會這些人到最後是在做發包？"],["陳院長璋玲：我再跟委員澄清一下，我們現在這100人裡面是沒有包括4,000噸船的船員，我們現在沒有估到那麼遠，因為4,000噸的船大概會在118年的時候才完工，所以我們現在比較穩健的推估是……"],["王委員義川：我為什麼會這樣問？接下來進到營運中心的這些同仁會不會是在辦招標？"],["陳院長璋玲：不會，因為我們本身就是聘僱船員，除非……"],["王委員義川：那你們這個營運中心會設研究人員嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：沒有，應該說船模實驗室會有，裡面的編制會有船模、調查跟船員……"],["王委員義川：那船模實驗室會再去委託大學老師做實驗嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：要看到時候的營運……不會，我們自己會開發本土的觀測技術。"],["王委員義川：好，這個都列入紀錄喔，因為交通部運輸研究所雖然是公務體系，但是它大部分的研究員現在都在做發包工作，都在委託學校老師、顧問公司做研究，那就失去它設立的意義嘛！你們這個營運中心要盡可能培養自己的研究人員，才能夠把人才留住，不要到最後變成這些高階研究人員、博士、助理教授級的人進到這個中心之後，竟然在辦理發包工作，這樣就沒有什麼意義了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員。","接下來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160317","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160317","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4a57cffe7eac2dcd8320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b49ef8a19ad8d4174405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:20:51 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我再請教一下我們現在海委會的員額屬於警察文職人員的部分"},{"start":100.679,"end":113.786,"text":"現在我們看到的資料預算原額是4248人現有的原額人數是3653人所以呢事實上我們現在不足原來的預算原額對吧對還沒有全部進行"},{"start":116.718,"end":127.863,"text":"好 所以如果按照這個數字來看的話我們海委會其實如果我們要充實我們相關的業務要充實我們相關的員額其實我們並沒有到頂我們還有差額大概將近600人將近600人所以"},{"start":138.533,"end":153.973,"text":"副人事長所以我們如果今天要用同樣的業務如果在海委會覺得說我需要有這些業務然後我的其實我可以用的員額人數更多將近600人是吧"},{"start":156.094,"end":174.09,"text":"謝謝委員提示那我跟委員報告一下因為他這個差了590幾人是因為海巡署跟海委會他有提報海巡特考高補考試的職缺那這個部分每年都有固定的考試那我們在今年114年2月的時候因為海巡署他有那個增建造艦的計畫"},{"start":176.412,"end":193.202,"text":"這個部分因為建跨要交了所以接下來我們依照他每一條船應該配置多少人這部分還有核定增加原格海巡署海委會未來他們會再提就這些人的規劃再提報海巡特考的人員進去所以這個等於是說考試前的"},{"start":195.043,"end":220.303,"text":"所以這個意思是說因為你要補足假如說你要補足這將近六百人他們需要考試但是如果你到這個中心的話就不需要考試是吧因為這兩個是不同的身份屬性兩個是不同這邊的是屬於海巡的基本上就是等於是公務員那那個是行政法人所自己禁用的那他們的要求資格等等那兩個是不一樣完全不一樣"},{"start":220.663,"end":238.588,"text":"好可是問題是說當我們成立行政法人我們就要去看就是原來這個行政法人他的業務到底我原來海委會或者我原來海委會所成立的其他的行政法人他的業務有沒有涵蓋好我們來看一下"},{"start":240.118,"end":247.163,"text":"這裡面就是有沒有業務重疊的地方譬如講你現在國家海洋科技營運中心你們現在有所謂的八大業務但是我們海委會還成立了"},{"start":256.329,"end":276.864,"text":"包含的這個就是海洋研究院還有我們國家實驗研究院的台灣海洋科技研究中心所以如果我們去對比一下相關的業務按照你們的八大業務裡面起碼有很多的業務事實上包含國家海洋研究院"},{"start":277.685,"end":296.583,"text":"或者是我們國家實驗研究院的海洋科技研究中心或者是我們國家研究院的船舶及海洋產業研發中心等等也都有相關的業務所以我想請教的就是"},{"start":297.97,"end":308.277,"text":"我們所要發展的這些業務沒有不好但是它中間有沒有一再的成立行政法人而讓他的業務有跌床架屋的一個問題因為我剛剛特別講一個原額100人的我們這個中心"},{"start":316.463,"end":338.422,"text":"那未來一年都要花到三億六那事實上你去看我們現在的行政中心我們現在很多的行政法人中心幾乎大家都沒有什麼自籌的能力雖然說有一些自償 有些你可以募款或者是你甚至可以舉債 但舉債也一定要有自償性所以我們成立越來越多的所謂的行政法人"},{"start":340.484,"end":367.892,"text":"那過去所詬病的就是成立行政法人之後他用的錢是誰的錢 仍然是公務預算他並不會因此他自己有我們不要說他有什麼變成金積母啦他至少要自給自足 也沒有絕大部分的行政法人都沒有自給自足的能力他全部用的是公務預算好 那如果他的業務有其特殊性必要性 我們覺得也OK可是如果按照這個業務來看的話這八大業務"},{"start":370.373,"end":388.163,"text":"那你的那個國家海洋研究院呢還有國家實驗研究院也都有這些業務啊那我請問一下原來的行政法人你也沒有裁撤啊你也沒有裁撤然後每天生一些新的業務然後說我必須要再增加這些業務一年要花掉3億6每一次我們在講說我們有一個法條他就會出來說我們這個有沒有裁員呢這個裁員來自哪裡啊對不對"},{"start":400.129,"end":428.691,"text":"一年316也不是一個小數字啊而且是原本100人所以這個有關業務重疊的部分那個副主委有沒有說法經費的部分不會年年因為等到我們自主營運之後呢未來有一些受託的業務呢也可以增加收入的來源會降低政府的這樣子的經費的意志那你預估未來316有多少他是可以自籌的可以告訴我們成立一個新的中心財務規劃非常非常重要"},{"start":429.111,"end":445.504,"text":"好 那一年3億6那麼有多少的經費可以來自於自籌這個都留紀錄喔我剛剛是講說會逐年的可以來降低政府的這個預祝的一個經費然後詳細的估算的部分當然那個國海院那邊他會去做一個整理這樣不行喔對我意思就是說"},{"start":446.525,"end":472.014,"text":"我們現在政府因為不管是有一些新的機構成立或者是尤其這個行政法人我覺得未來其實在財務的部分要有一個比較嚴謹的估算不然你跟我講說每個要成立的時候都說我們一定會想辦法自籌財源我們一定會想辦法來降低我們公務預算的這個負擔可是後來不但沒有降低有的還越來越多"},{"start":473.254,"end":491.679,"text":"是不是所以我在這邊希望你們可以用最短的時間至少一個禮拜的時間能夠把你們有關於未來的財務規劃比較詳細的資料提供給包含我們的內政委員會跟我們司法法治委員會可以嗎可不可以兩個禮拜"},{"start":494.04,"end":515.348,"text":"兩個禮拜可以啊因為我覺得這個時間我希望你們提出來的是因為提出來它未來就是我們可以去追蹤考核的嘛不然每個人都是這樣子嘛想要成立成立之後你也關不掉啊所以我剛才講啊請你們也好好去研究啊跟其他的國史院也好或者這個海洋研究院也好"},{"start":515.828,"end":521.493,"text":"妳有沒有跌床架屋的地方呢有沒有其他地方 它原額可以刪減呢不然我們養人 養人 再養人養了一些人 兩個業務也差不多是要打架嗎 還是大家要互別苗頭呢是不是 因為"},{"start":531.822,"end":551.333,"text":"國家政府的資源有限這些業務我都承認它是重要的可是同樣的業務有三組人馬在做那就是不對的那就叫做沒有效率那說到更難聽一點大家會覺得說你們是不是要去酬庸啊都會有這樣的質疑好不好"},{"start":551.633,"end":578.848,"text":"好 這個業務會不會重置的部分事實上我們都一直有在盤點而且我們也知道很多委員都關切這個議題那我們這個海科中心事實上對於這個調查船整體包括我們未來4000噸的這個調查船這個是其他的中心所沒有的然後我們的國家船模實驗室未來的營運這個也是其他的中心所沒有的包括那個國科會下屬的這個這個實驗院的這個中心的部分它主要是佛大學跟學術單位啦 所以"},{"start":580.089,"end":593.88,"text":"我們都有去盤點這些不要去重置這個資源那這個對於國家的整個關鍵核心技術包括這些船模實驗的本土化是非常重要的一個旅程好 我跟你講我就在講我沒有說這業務不重要好 那你這兩個禮拜請給我"},{"start":595.802,"end":605.025,"text":"比如說你海洋調查及實驗技術之研究開發是你第一個業務嗎對不對可是問題是海洋研究院也有同樣業務那請問這兩個業務有什麼不同可不可以告訴我一下譬如說國家海洋調查船的營運管理這麼重要重要"},{"start":612.648,"end":637.764,"text":"好 那可是問題是國家海洋研究院 船舶機海洋產業研發中心也有同樣的業務那你們兩個業務 兩個單位的業務又有什麼不一樣呢好不好 你這兩個禮拜可以把這個業務有沒有重疊有沒有疊床架屋的問題也能幫忙釐清好不好我們提供報告 然後做一個比較詳細的說明美 我跟你講 真的一年316 我總是希望我們的錢花在刀口上好不好 好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時20分）謝謝主席，我請吳副主委。"],["主席：有請吳副主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有副人事長。"],["主席：副人事長。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["懷副人事長敍：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副主委好、副人事長好。請問一下，未來我們成立海洋科技營運中心的話，一年的預算會是多少錢？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：目前預估115年下半年會需要6,000萬的經費，然後116年大概3億，116到118大概差不多3億左右。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為115年是下半年成立，所以正常的話，一年的預算超過3億，對不對？請問一下，中心的預估員額是多少？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：100人。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以未來是100個員額的業務，然後一年要花到3億，我看到的資料是，甚至117、118要花到3億6，對不對？這個預算主要是由公務支出嘛？主要是公務支出，所以我們可以把它視為，未來我們政府要負擔一年大概3億6、100個員額的一個中心。","我再請教一下，現在海委會員額屬於警察、文職人員的部分，依我們看到的資料，預算員額是4,248人，現有員額人數是3,653人，事實上，你們現在不足原來的預算員額，對吧？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，還沒有全部進用。"],["王委員鴻薇：按照這個數字來看的話，海委會如果要充實相關的業務、要充實相關的員額，其實你們並沒有到頂，還有差額大概將近600人。副人事長，假設海委會覺得需要有這些業務，而且它可以用的員額人數更多，將近600人，是吧？"],["懷副人事長敍：謝謝委員提示，我跟委員報告一下，關於它這個差額五百九十幾人，是因為海巡署跟海委會有提報海巡特考、高普考試的職缺，這個部分每年都有固定的考試。今年114年2月的時候，因為海巡署有增建、造艦的計畫，這個部分因為艦快要交了，所以接下來我們依照每一條船應該要配置多少人，這個部分還有核定增加員額給它。海委會未來會就這些人的規劃再提報海巡特考的人員進去，所以這個等於是考試前的落差空間。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個意思是說，假如你要補足這將近600人的員額，他們需要考試，但如果是到這個中心的話就不需要考試，是吧？"],["懷副人事長敍：這兩個是不同的身分屬性，這邊的是屬於海巡的，基本上等於是公務員，那個則是行政法人自己進用的人員，他們的要求、資格等等，兩個是不同的。"],["王委員鴻薇：不一樣？"],["懷副人事長敍：完全不一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，問題是當我們要成立行政法人，我們就要去看看這個行政法人的業務與原來海委會或海委會成立的其他行政法人的業務有沒有涵蓋。我們來看一下這裡面有沒有業務重疊的地方，譬如你們規劃中的國家海洋科技營運中心有所謂的八大業務，但是海委會還成立了海洋研究院，而國家實驗研究院也有台灣海洋科技研究中心。如果我們去對比一下相關的業務，按照你們的八大業務來看，事實上有很多業務，包含國家海洋研究院、國家實驗研究院的海洋科技研究中心，或者是國家研究院的船舶暨海洋產業研發中心等等，也都有相關的業務。我想要請教的就是，我們所要發展的這些業務沒有不好，但是這中間有沒有一再地成立行政法人，而在業務上有疊床架屋的問題？","我剛剛特別講到，一個員額100人的中心，未來一年都要花到3.6億，事實上你去看現在的行政法人、中心，我們現在有很多的行政法人、中心幾乎都沒有什麼自籌的能力。雖然說有一些可以自償，有一些可以募款，甚至是可以舉債，但是舉債也一定要有自償性。我們成立越來越多的行政法人，過去所詬病的就是成立行政法人之後，它用的錢是誰的錢？仍然是公務預算，並不會因此自己有錢，我們不要說它會變成金雞母，至少要自給自足，但也沒有，絕大部分的行政法人都沒有自給自足的能力，全部用的是公務預算。","好，如果它的業務有其特殊性、必要性，我們覺得也OK，可是如果按照這八大業務來看的話，你的國家海洋研究院、國家實驗研究院下的中心也都有這些業務啊！請問一下，原來的行政法人也沒有裁撤，然後每天生一些新的業務就說必須再增加這些業務，一年要花掉3.6億，一年要花掉3.6億！每一次當我們提出一個法條，他們就會出來問我們這個有沒有財源、財源來自哪裡，對不對？一年3.6億也不是一個小數字，而且是員額100人！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，經費的部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：有關業務重疊的部分，副主委有沒有說法？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：經費的部分不會年年，因為等到我們自主營運之後，未來有一些受託的業務也可以增加收入的來源，會降低政府經費的挹注，這是第一個。"],["王委員鴻薇：你預估未來3.6億有多少是它可以自籌的？成立一個新的中心，財務規劃非常非常重要，一年3.6億，有多少經費可以來自自籌？這個都會留紀錄喔。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們是講說會逐年降低政府挹注的經費，至於詳細估算的部分，國海院會去整理。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣不行喔！我的意思就是說，現在政府不管是有一些新的機構成立，尤其是行政法人，我覺得未來在財務的部分要有比較嚴謹的估算，不然每個要成立的時候都說一定會想辦法自籌財源、一定會想辦法降低公務預算的負擔，可是後來不但沒有降低，有的還越來越多，是不是？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，我們會往那個……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我在這邊希望你們可以用最短的時間，至少一個禮拜的時間，能夠把你們有關於未來財務規劃比較詳細的資料提供給我們，包含內政委員會、司法及法制委員會，可以嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員，可不可以兩個禮拜？給他們一點時間。"],["王委員鴻薇：兩個禮拜？可以啊！我希望你們提出來的是未來我們可以去追蹤、考核的嘛，不然每個人都是這樣，想要成立，成立之後也關不掉啊！所以我剛才講，請你們也好好去研究，跟其他的國實院也好，或者海洋研究院也好，有沒有疊床架屋的地方呢？有沒有其他地方的員額可以刪減呢？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：報告委員，這個部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：不然我們養人、養人、再養人，養了一些人，兩個業務也差不多，是要打架嗎？還是大家要互別苗頭呢？是不是？國家政府的資源有限，這些業務我都承認它是重要的，可是同樣的業務有三組人馬在做，那就是不對的，那就叫做沒有效率，說得更難聽一點，大家會覺得你們是不是要去酬庸？都會有這樣的質疑，好不好？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，這個業務會不會重置的部分，事實上我們一直都有盤點，而且我們也知道很多委員都關切這個議題。我們這個海科中心事實上對於調查船整體，包括我們未來4,000噸的調查船，這個是其他中心沒有的；然後我們的國家船模實驗室未來的營運，這個也是其他中心沒有的，包括國科會下屬的實研院的中心，它主要是for大學跟學術單位，所以我們都有去盤點，然後不要重置資源，這個對於國家的整個關鍵核心技術，包括這些船模實驗的本土化是非常重要的一個里程……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛就講了，我沒有說這個業務不重要，那就請你在兩個禮拜給我相關的資料，比如說「海洋調查及實驗技術之研究開發」是你們這個中心的第一個業務，對不對？問題是海洋研究院也有同樣的業務，請問這兩個業務有什麼不同，可不可以告訴我一下？又譬如「國家海洋調查船之營運管理」這個業務重不重要？重要！可是問題是國家海洋研究院的船舶暨海洋產業研發中心也有同樣的業務，兩個單位的業務又有什麼不一樣呢？請你們在兩個禮拜內幫忙釐清這些單位的業務有沒有重疊、有沒有疊床架屋的問題，好不好？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，我們提供報告，做比較詳細的說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：我跟你講，真的，一年3.6億，我總是希望我們的錢花在刀口上，好不好？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。從早上到現在，其實委員對於相同的問題都很關注，所以請兩個禮拜內提供資料給內政委員會跟司法及法制委員會。","接下來請王義川委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a40dd73259727ad23d320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b4929602ffc9a9b6cbf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:05:09 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謝謝兩位今天很把握這六分鐘的時間我想我會用不同的面向來看看在未來海科重新成立的這些過程樣樣相向的這個定位我們不要遺漏了非常重要的一塊叫做人文而人文當中吳思瑤最在乎的就是文化"},{"start":46.101,"end":65.867,"text":"跟海科中心不能成為outside的面向就是保存跟活化水下的文資我這裡要念一段當初我們在成立海委會的時候蘇貞昌前院長說的一段話他說海洋不只帶給我們漁獲更滋養豐富我們的精神與文化"},{"start":66.647,"end":88.815,"text":"一個國家面對海洋的態度 往往影響國家長遠的未來雖然台灣開放海洋 擁抱海洋的起步較晚但是只要我們目標明確我們一定能夠成為一個真正現代化的海洋國家能為我們的疆疆孫孫留下非常豐厚的海洋資產"},{"start":90.6,"end":106.287,"text":"所以說呢我今天要跟兩位探討我剛剛聽了很多委員他關切的要成立國家海洋科技中心大家都看到了科技層面科技研發的量能也看到我們在國防建構安全韌性我們要國建國造我們要強化我們的海上生命線的很多巡防它需要人力物力軟體硬體的部件這都是提升海洋國家競爭力的重要面向"},{"start":118.692,"end":147.088,"text":"所以 YES 我們需要國家海洋科技中心 下一頁而你們成立這個中心的兩個重要的業務 任務當然在船舶實驗室的建置跟調查船的建置那目前都一個118年 一個116年所以說我也都支持我也希望都能夠在預算 政策 法治的面向給你們很大的支持但是呢 下一頁"},{"start":148.598,"end":174.455,"text":"我們之所以用行政法人就是鬆綁他的人事任用讓我們可以延攬更專業的人才還可以培育然後呢我們可以活化組織可以給予組織還有資金籌措更大的彈性還包括採購那是非常重要的所以我非常支持用行政法人剛剛前面有委員說用行政法人聽起來好像很多弊端好像就會規避監督並沒有"},{"start":176.656,"end":204.375,"text":"行政法人我們專業的立委都知道行政法人還是需要接受立法院的監督我過去在教育文化委員會文化部門是最多行政法人的因為就是要讓他專業人才的鬆綁以及組織運用的彈性所以說技術專業人才一次到位我會支持這個條例我會支持這個中心但是不要忘了重要的文化使命下一頁"},{"start":205.636,"end":219.946,"text":"文資局文化部的文資局跟我們海委會的國海院強強聯手在2020年就簽訂了水下文資保存的MOU陳院長您是好像剛到任是嗎"},{"start":221.567,"end":246.455,"text":"那之前簽署的是前院長 邱永芳前院長當初文化部跟海委會強強聯手就是要跟上聯合國在2001年就已經有的全球都要做水下文資UNESCO甚至有個公約而台灣也進一步在文資法之後我們2016年就訂定了水下文資的專法"},{"start":247.555,"end":268.129,"text":"所以這是一個 當然文化部帶頭 可是新的文化保存 文化再利用還有 尤其水下 它需要非常多的科技的support才能夠有利於去做水下文資的考古調查等等當初簽的這個MOU啊 這新到任的陳院長你有什麼掌握"},{"start":271.301,"end":298.552,"text":"這文化工作上全部掌握全部掌握好那請問有什麼樣具體的進展因為已經簽了五年囉因為其實我們簽了五年我們持續都有跟文化局在做文字局文字局不好意思文字局持續有我們有辦理文字局的一個計畫那這個計畫裡面事實上我們現在目前針對沉船還有包括台江區域裡面的一些可能的水下的文資我們都利用我們的科技包括像那個電地組啦"},{"start":299.352,"end":325.844,"text":"還有包括一些雷達或一些聲納的一些系統裡面我們事實上有去探測它水下可能的一個存在的物品謝謝你的都有掌握好下一頁但都有掌握是真的嗎我希望啊因為今天如果我們在審這個條例的時候當然當中很重要的就是這個基礎調查的研究船的興建4000噸級的這一艘它當中很重要的一個功能用途就是水下文資的調查"},{"start":327.285,"end":352.551,"text":"那台澎的海域目前的水中目標物97筆其中20筆目標物被辨識成為具有文資的意義物六處的沉船處從江金雲一號當然從江金雲一號的發現開始建構了台灣對於水下文資的全部一個翻天覆地的一個新的時代讓我們台灣人知道說那時候是國立歷史博物館帶頭的"},{"start":353.971,"end":377.694,"text":"所以讓我們發現說台灣的周遭原來台澎海域有這麼豐富的水下文資從那一個將軍一號的調研考古開始我們水下文資的工作開始往前站所以今天的計畫裡頭不要忘了喔這個4000噸級的研究船的建制計畫當中很重要的是水下文資的調查也是它的重要使命喔下一頁"},{"start":378.755,"end":396.445,"text":"那為什麼今天我們在審這個設置條例裡頭海科中心的業務範圍六大項第七項是其他沒有提及任何一個文資的調研的協力不要漏了如果剛剛院長所說都有掌握"},{"start":397.489,"end":417.57,"text":"也都有合作那我們在這個設置辦法裡頭就不要讓文化成為outsider下一頁所以請支持好下一頁吳思瑤的版本我會增加一項未來的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例第三條的業務範圍執掌會增加一個水下文資的調查協力應當沒有問題嗎"},{"start":420.293,"end":442.409,"text":"好不好支持我的版本然後呢長遠來講是要催生台灣催生一個國家級的水下博物館就在澎湖啊就在澎湖這一個水下博物館的計畫我不曉得現在進展到哪裡因為今天沒有文化部的人列席啊這個水下博物館的這個計畫請問院長您大概可以知說明一下嗎"},{"start":443.564,"end":460.926,"text":"印象中好像是在白沙啦澎湖的白沙那一塊好 進展到哪裡你不能講印象中 你是意料中的現在我可以說嗎這個藥物主要是屬於文化部的我知道 我知道所以我今天要來就教於你就是說你們不要忘了文化的任務部部都是文化部"},{"start":462.113,"end":464.856,"text":"那如果文化部繼續朝因為當初是希望2040年啦時程還很久啦如果說文化部全力的我當然會對文化部門持續的倡議請你們全力來協力"},{"start":485.095,"end":503.712,"text":"畢竟科學的研究有助於文化資產的調研尤其水下的考古而且最新的國際文化的資產的保存也就強化文化資產的韌性都需要借助科技而且科技不只是在保存端它可以在後端的典藏"},{"start":504.773,"end":516.415,"text":"策展推廣的那一塊用科技的導入來協助他能夠讓更多人來親近各類的文化資產譬如說科技的導入我們的水"},{"start":517.699,"end":532.485,"text":"水下國家的博物館計畫我們可能是陸地的那種基地型不是一般國際做真的水下型所以必須藉助科技的研發來幫助大家可以用AR 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謝謝主席那請我們彭部長請部長"},{"start":18.303,"end":33.93,"text":"好 部長好那在月初美國片面宣布全球加徵關稅那我們台灣首當其衝被加徵32%雖然現在在談判期有90天的緩衝期可是仍然有10%的基本關稅"},{"start":35.051,"end":57.59,"text":"那我也看部長在報導的時候有表示說這個對等關稅的衝擊很有可能比歐盟的西變影響還大那再加上我國跟美國近鄰轉型還有近鄰減碳的工作上有很多的合作那這一部分我們環境部的相關部門有沒有針對這影響評估有做一些報告嗎"},{"start":58.851,"end":75.022,"text":"其實第一個是說他的關稅32到現在為止一直在滾動的在弄那可能是未來90天以內就會有新的結果那其實我們一直在關注美國新的一個政策那因為也的確委員說的都是道理就是說美國現在已經不談氣候變遷了例如說但是他會談循環經濟所以對我們環境部來說的話也是重要的一環"},{"start":79.485,"end":99.186,"text":"所以我們會積極的是衝擊有多少像委員提到的影響的產品或是說減碳的供應鏈等等這個是我們關注的我們會一個一個來看產業的細項我們還是要等整個經濟部或是我們談判出來的結果之後一步一步的在細緻上談一下我們的衝擊大概有多少我們的確是很認真在準備這個事情"},{"start":99.767,"end":125.986,"text":"好部長那你有提到其實像這一波美國大幅提高這個關稅你看它像對中國的製品關稅它提高到245%那一定會影響中國的鋼鐵鋁還有太陽能設備跟電動車的電池等那這些近鄰關鍵的材料那雖然好像只對中國有影響但是事實上這些原物料跟零組件"},{"start":126.506,"end":140.803,"text":"都是全球減碳供應鏈不可或缺的一部分那這樣子是不是會放緩我國企業對於轉型的進程或者會增加我們這些綠色轉型的成本"},{"start":141.644,"end":163.242,"text":"包括因為如果說以這個太陽能設備或是離岸風電的相關的設備我們是沒有中國的紅色供應鏈在裡面所以我們的這種再生能源的這個進展應該不是受到直接立即的一個衝擊但是其他的部分例如說好電動車電子等等這個就是我們未來要關注的一個焦點因為畢竟中國在這個稀土的掌握"},{"start":163.622,"end":186.305,"text":"或是重金屬的掌握是有一大的比例如果說全世界這個關稅起的話其實這個對我們後續這樣電池產業的衝擊會很大那這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來寫上這個事情因為這個數據經濟部包含產發署他們會比我們敏感很多我們會尊重他們的意見來做後續的研判所以部長的意思說針對電動車電池這部分可能影響比較大"},{"start":186.685,"end":196.436,"text":"對其實這個因為中國扮演很大的一個稀土例如說未來的鋰電池等等這個可能都會受到一些衝擊但是這個還要觀察啦那像那這個電動車電池這些的產業它會變成會優先終止這個投資的計畫嗎"},{"start":202.683,"end":217.771,"text":"可能就是說第一個是會不會斷鏈全球供應鏈會不會斷鏈斷鏈之後其實這個就產生價格的一個波動這個後續的影響這個我想經濟部可能比我們會更清楚但是我覺得這樣對我們來說的話發展可能會受到一些影響"},{"start":218.832,"end":236.592,"text":"那像這個它這個連鎖效應會不會影響到我們整個國家的減碳工作甚至我們的減碳目標需不需要來做調整第一個是說我們認為因為我們1月23號好不容易匯集整個行政團隊還有整個我們現在正在進行匯集一個目標之後跟"},{"start":237.193,"end":257.324,"text":"大眾來進行溝通我們好不容易有一個目標我們這時候在改而且那個改的這個目標現在還不確定所以我們還是維持現在的一個狀況但是我們會擴大跟產業跟各界的一個溝通如果溝通我們掌握到好的數據的時候未來還有滾動調整的一個空間所以我們現在是穩定大家往前走甚至是趁這個機會轉型為最優先的目標"},{"start":260.166,"end":274.998,"text":"所以目前還不到調整目標的階段目前來看的話因為最後的數字還沒有出來如果最後的數字出來對產業可能活不下去了我們會配合經濟部我們會爭取預算是不是對產業有一些更好的一個輔導的方案"},{"start":276.704,"end":297.811,"text":"那我們下週也會舉辦這個氣候變遷委員會那是不是有機會把關稅影響到衝擊這些綠色轉型的這些事項在談判的過程中可以跟總統談一下可以爭取台美淨零排碳的合作機會像我們擔心說不要只跟美國"},{"start":299.963,"end":325.24,"text":"談這個買碳排高的天然氣是不是有機會擴大投資針對綠能像我們這部分可以擴大投資的機會也可以爭取發展淨零碳排的意願包委員當然這個天然氣只是一部分啦我覺得那個不是大的重點美國有很多淨零的新的科技例如說碳補儲跟風存等CCS等等或是各種新的工具我們都非常期待當然"},{"start":325.8,"end":352.71,"text":"川普總統對離岸風電等等會覺得說這個不重要這個其實我們也都聽到了所以我們其實在裡面應該會有一些建議當然這個都是我們的建議最後整個合作還是要看我們的國安團隊或談判團隊對美國的協商對啊 因為我們希望不要只放在碳排高的天然氣上面盡量擴大投資的機會去找一些綠能把我們這個近年碳排的這些能源"},{"start":353.55,"end":380.407,"text":"有機會來多採購好可以可以好那部長在之前報導的時候也有提到我們有關注一下你說有評估跟行政院來爭取經費設計一套協助企業綠色轉型的方案那你也說大概目標一到兩個月就能提出來讓企業能更有提早減碳的意願那這部分我們初步的規劃有出來了嗎"},{"start":381.147,"end":402.224,"text":"目前還沒有只是說因為第一個我們還是要等那個關稅最後談判的結果到底誰受衝擊我們一定要因為現在的這個經費是非常的緊縮所以我們要針對受影響的為第一優先我們不希望浪費錢所以這個部分我們要等這個關稅最後談判定了哪一個產業影響最大我們就針對那個來做這個所謂的客製化的來做處理"},{"start":405.046,"end":418.942,"text":"所以目前還沒有但是我必須說這個是我們很關注的我們會一直緊盯的來調整來關注這個事情所以要等到關稅定案看哪個受哪個企業產業受影響比較大再來做調整這個報告委員這個兩個部分"},{"start":420.423,"end":436.235,"text":"一個是從我們的經貿談判部門最後的結果另外一個是我們環境部會積極的跟產業來溝通因為有時候從產業直接的市場上的溝通或是我們談判最後的溝通兩方面得到的一個結果我相信會對企業是最有用的"},{"start":437.298,"end":460.038,"text":"那我們剛剛都有提到美國對全球加徵關稅的影響勢必會影響到我們減碳設備跟原物料價格的連動上漲那針對這部分也會影響到企業推展綠色轉型的意願那我們是不是針對碳費的收入有沒有機會用於協助產業綠色轉型減少他們企業壓力緩衝的機會"},{"start":464.922,"end":491.82,"text":"因為我們現在這個就在規劃因為我們的碳費審議委員會在前幾個禮拜有開過第一次會議那下一次會議可能就要談說未來這個明年的這個如果有收到碳費之後明年的這個經費要怎麼去做使用那現在因為遇到這個關稅的這個衝擊我想這個其實是我們最關心的所以我也贊同未來兩個這個委員提到的一個綠色轉型的方案實成或是說如何幫助這個受重啟的產業他的能夠順利轉型成功"},{"start":495.262,"end":520.58,"text":"因為我們就擔心說因為關稅的問題會拖延影響到我國淨零減碳的進度所以這個碳費它本來就有補助相關機關執行溫室氣體減量工作的用意所以應該朝這一部分我們來擴大補助對象對受關稅影響較大的產業我們用碳費協助它推展綠色轉型的工作那也對於我們"},{"start":521.54,"end":534.671,"text":"環境部達成2030、2035減碳目標應該有比較大的注意吧對對 這個我們會來列入考慮但是因為這個還沒有出來等到出來有影響我們一定會做出這樣的考量對啊 因為我們希望這個碳飛能夠協助產業來做這個綠色轉型的工作對對好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員 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謝謝主席這個我們吳副主委然後國海院陳院長跟海保署請我們副主委還有國海院陳院長好 謝謝齁這個我先請教一下今天我們討論的是這個"},{"start":27.785,"end":52.566,"text":"相關的這個海科中心的這個相關的一個條文那當然啦就基於這個海洋的保護科技的研究強化國家的實力等等那當然多做一點事情這個我們當然用開放的心態來面對不過我也要提醒一下就是說剛剛有很多委員去談到比如說財務資產的問題啊人員重複的問題這個希望這個相關的一些資料要收集齊全做充分的溝通未來在法療進入審查的時候它其實才會比較順利啦"},{"start":54.247,"end":72.503,"text":"那這樣子的硬體建設的支持我想大部分人都不會反對只要說明清楚不會遇到太多的阻力但我想今天想要借這樣的一個機會我反而要問一下有關軟體的部分這個去年第一會期我們在審查這個海保法在審議完畢的時候其實本席有提出相關的一個附帶決議那也經過內政委員會當初一致的"},{"start":75.225,"end":100.545,"text":"通過那就是由這個讓海委會這邊要針對這個海洋保育的這個知識的建構要讓我們第一線的執法人員有更好的這樣子的一個本領啦你才有辦法去貫徹海保法當初設計出來的一些初衷那我想請問一下這個海洋保育的相關課程因為那時候規定了比如說總訓練時數要到20個小時以上要定期回訓機制這樣子的一套遊戲規則請問現在設計到什麼樣的階段"},{"start":106.589,"end":134.972,"text":"報告委員那我們現在我們的這個人員的經用包括我們的巡查員跟觀察員的部分現階段都還在持續的規劃那我們當然也針對我們自己保育巡查員或是將來在保育執法上這些人員的執法能力包括他的課程設計然後他的認證跟他未來面對民眾的部分我們在現階段來講我們有正在"},{"start":136.193,"end":154.791,"text":"這個署長召集我們正在規劃跟策劃當中現在針對這樣子的一個課程跟訓練機制的設計是誰負責海保署還是我們自己承辦的這個組就在來規劃這些相關的課程那當然會會邀請我們的專家學者來提供我們的意見在執法上"},{"start":155.732,"end":171.628,"text":"對我現在要講你剛剛有講看起來有講一些方向但我總覺得好像沒有很具體因為附帶決議的內容其實是非常具體的也就是說為了充實相關執法人員這個相關的一些知識要有海洋保育知識啊巡護啊海洋野生動物的概念環境維護污染防治"},{"start":172.248,"end":190.096,"text":"甚至違反犯罪的偵查還有一部分原住民族嘛因為很多人關心嘛因為有原住民捕魚的問題還有生物多樣性等等的一些課程訓練時數20小時以上要定期回訓所以看起來它應該是一個完整的課表跟一個機制比如說分幾梯多少人受訓什麼時候來受訓有沒有一些比較具體像這樣子的一個這樣子的設計"},{"start":192.813,"end":221.313,"text":"各位報告我們有一個執法的預告是針對這個上課的內容還有課程的時數那目前已經在預告當中這是未來執法的一部分那剛剛海保署副長提到就是整個規劃的部分那我們會後也可以再提供一個資料給委員好你會後提供資料這一個啊另外一個我要講就是說這我們希望喔這個因為我想這樣的事情一定對於海委會一定也有一些新增的工作嘛就是或多或少都有些負擔這個就是大家要同力合作不要把它只是當成海保署的事情"},{"start":221.673,"end":245.421,"text":"那這個當然也不會因為實務上第一線是海巡啦海巡大家都知道他其實非常非常的辛苦剛剛在樓下我們海委會業務報我已經講了這個都變第二海軍了那個待遇歸待遇待遇要增加但我覺得除了待遇之外你現在立刻可以做的其實是因應這些新增的工作你應該立刻提供他強而有力的後勤資源換言之海保署這個要改變規劃的他要他不只要符合當初的精神他也要很實用"},{"start":246.221,"end":271.371,"text":"讓大家用最簡單最輕鬆的方式掌握最多的知識那我今天特別來講請國海院我們在硬體建設讓相關的這些你如果要一個行政法人等等大家用開放的心態來處理那我覺得軟體上國海院應該做研究嘛就本席的了解這聽起來就非常的純學術啦但我希望它不能只是純學術啦你國海院對海洋野生動物的知識啊污染的防治等等應該也有一些研究量對不對"},{"start":273.504,"end":299.88,"text":"有啦確實啦我們不是只有做學術啦不是只有做學術很好我就想聽這句話我們是為了政策而研究而學術為了政策而研究對不對那請問你在這個我們上次通過的附帶決議跟海保署規劃課程的內容裡面有沒有跟你們做會商你們可以提供什麼樣的協助我們事實上我們都有保持非常密切的一個聯繫啦針對這個課程裡面的一個設計的一個內涵事實上海保署事實上我們這邊都會有互相會有提供意見好這個"},{"start":301.943,"end":325.346,"text":"本席確定就是要今天質詢就是要強調這件事情就是說你還有會所有的體系要通力合作第一線的海巡是最辛苦的所以你們其他部門要給他很強的後勤資源尤其是國海院的部分那剛剛已經講很清楚有在密切的對話那我們就希望盡快的來看到具體的成果所以我希望你剛剛除了你剛剛講的一些資料之外最後這個我們現在支持未來這個海報法要上路要執行之後"},{"start":326.207,"end":355.142,"text":"支援海保署執法的相關的人數是多少其中有多少會接受相關的海洋保育課程也就是說你現在整個計畫的一個推動的進度啦上課的總時數回訊的機制都要提供相關的數據資料我們希望海哥中心當然是有硬體的提升這當然大家樂觀其成但軟體部分的支援就希望國海院海保署要多費心讓海保法當初修正完畢之後那個初衷可以順利落實可以嗎可以可以好 相關資料你們要多久時間交給大家來參考"},{"start":357.886,"end":364.259,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜當然好啊OK好不好那我們就等相關的資料請盡量詳時可以嗎可以可以好謝謝辛苦了謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":560,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時59分）謝謝主席。請吳副主委，然後國海院陳院長跟海保署。"],["主席：請我們副主委，還有國海院陳院長。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我先請教一下，今天我們討論的是海科中心相關的條文，當然就是基於海洋的保護、科技的研究、強化國家的實力等等，當然多做一點事情，這我們當然用開放的心態面對。不過我也要提醒一下，剛剛有很多委員談到比如財務自償的問題、人員重複的問題，希望要將相關的一些資料蒐集齊全，充分的溝通，未來在法條進入審查的時候才會比較順利。這樣子的硬體建設的支持，我想大部分人都不會反對，只要說明清楚，不會遇到太多阻力。但今天藉由這樣的機會，我反而要問一下有關軟體的部分。去年第1會期我們在審查海保法，審議完畢的時候，其實本席有提出相關的附帶決議，也經過內政委員會一致通過，請海委會要針對海洋保育的知識建構，讓我們第一線的執法人員有更好的本領，才有辦法貫徹海保法當初設計出來的初衷。我想請問一下有關海洋保育的相關課程，因為那時候規定，比如總訓練時數要20個小時以上、要定期回訓的機制，這樣的一套遊戲規則，請問現在設計到什麼樣的階段？"],["施副署長義哲：報告委員，現在我們的人員進用，包括巡查員跟觀察員的部分，現階段都還在持續地規劃。我們當然也針對我們自己的保育巡查員或是將來在保育執法上這些人員的執法能力，包括相關課程設計及認證，以及未來面對民眾的部分，在現階段來講，是由署長召集，我們正在規劃跟籌劃當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在針對這樣的課程跟訓練機制的設計是誰負責？海保署還是……"],["施副署長義哲：我們自己承辦的組就來規劃這些相關課程，當然會邀請專家學者提供我們有關執法的意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你剛剛看起來有講一些方向，但我總覺得好像沒有很具體。附帶決議的內容其實是非常具體的，為了充實相關執法人員的相關知識，要有海洋保育知識、巡護、海洋野生動物的概念，還有環境維護、污染防治，甚至違反犯罪的偵查，還有一部分是原住民族，這部分很多人關心，因為有原住民捕魚的問題，還有生物多樣性等等的課程，訓練時數20小時以上，並且要定期回訓，看起來這應該是一個完整的課表跟機制，比如說分幾梯、多少人受訓、什麼時候來受訓，有沒有一些比較具體像這樣子的設計？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，我們有一個子法的預告，是針對上課的內容還有課程的時數，目前已經在預告當中，這是未來子法的一部分。剛剛海保署副署長提到整個規劃的部分，我們會後也可以再提供一個資料給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你會後提供資料，這是一個。另外一個我要講的就是，我想這樣的事情一定對海委會有一些……因為這是新增的工作嘛，或多或少都有一些負擔，這就是大家要通力合作，不要只是當成海保署的事情，這當然也不會，因為實務上第一線是海巡，大家都知道海巡其實非常、非常地辛苦，剛剛海委會在樓下業務報告時，我已經講了，這都變第二海軍了，待遇歸待遇，待遇要增加，但我覺得除了待遇之外，你現在立刻可以做的，因應這些新增的工作，應該立刻提供他們強而有力的後勤資源。換言之，海保署規劃的不只要符合當初的精神，也要很實用，讓他們用最簡單、最輕鬆的方式掌握最多的知識，我今天特別要講，請國海院，在硬體建設的部分，你如果要用行政法人等等，大家用開放的心態來處理；我覺得在軟體上，國海院應該要做研究。就本席的了解，這聽起來就非常純學術，但我希望不能只是純學術，國海院對於海洋野生動物的知識、污染的防治等等應該也有一些研究量能，對不對？"],["陳院長璋玲：有，確實，我們不是只有做學術……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是只有做學術，很好，我就想聽這句話。"],["陳院長璋玲：我們是為了政策而研究而學術。"],["牛委員煦庭：為了政策而研究，對不對？"],["陳院長璋玲：而學術，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我請問你，我們上次通過附帶決議，海保署規劃課程的內容裡面有沒有跟你們會商、你們可以提供什麼樣的協助？"],["陳院長璋玲：事實上我們都有保持非常密切的聯繫，針對課程裡面的設計內涵，我們跟海保署互相……我們都有提供意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。本席今天質詢就是要強調這件事情，海委會所有的體系要通力合作。第一線的海巡是最辛苦的，所以你們其他部門要給它很強的後勤支援。尤其是國海院的部分，剛剛已經講得很清楚，有在密切對話，那我們希望儘快看到具體的成果。我希望除了你剛剛講的那些資料之外，最後，未來海保法上路執行之後，支援海保署執法的相關人數是多少，其中有多少會接受相關的海洋保育課程？現在整個計畫的推動進度、上課的總時數、回訓的機制都要提供相關的數據資料。海科中心當然是有關硬體的提升，這部分當然大家樂觀其成，但軟體部分的支援，希望國海院、海保署要多費心，讓海保法修正完畢之後當初的初衷可以順利落實，可以嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：可以，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：相關資料你們要多久時間交給大家參考？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：兩個禮拜，當然好啊，OK，那我們就等相關的資料，請儘量詳實，可以嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：可以、可以，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員的質詢。","接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160313","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160313","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a432b21395a6415166db8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b490c9ded73aea8ac595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:48:13 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部長可以認同嗎非常認同 包委員你剛才說的那個美國環保署他真的是的確在修改各種的空污或是污染的這個標準在放寬當中而且是要以經濟這個讓美國再次偉大為一個前提來發展環保那的確跟我們目前環境部推動的這個台灣的環境保護是有一點點不大一樣"},{"start":189.921,"end":209.489,"text":"但是我們目前來看的話因為這個只是一個短期的現象我們還是很謹慎的來因應各種未來的可能它的變化到底衝擊有多大我們的確是很謹慎的來但是因為近年還是我們還是要樂觀啦還是要努力鼓勵大家去做所以謹慎要審慎這個台灣今年的攤費費率就是剩下5月就馬上進行TEST的申報對不對"},{"start":215.031,"end":238.573,"text":"然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度的排放量的碳匯目前預定的期準應該都沒有改變嗎?沒有改變這個如果都沒有改變的情況之下美國對等關稅把台灣列為提高到32%的國家雖然現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期那萬一"},{"start":241.838,"end":266.682,"text":"確定過這90天之後確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受債戶環境部這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎包委因為我們現在錢是明年的5月31號才要繳所以我們有一段的時間可以不是馬上的就是可以去做決定所以我們會看例如說90天後現在只剩下八十幾天了那個90天八九十天以後"},{"start":267.362,"end":291.158,"text":"到底實際上受多少影響甚至到明年我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整基本上我的理念還是一樣要讓企業可以活下去活下去然後他們需要一些幫忙我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙就是做企業的後盾嘛對對對所以我們的盡力目標不會走位投入但達成的時間點是我有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況這個都是要列入考慮"},{"start":292.399,"end":315.415,"text":"或立刻去了解這個排蛋倒露的狀況聽聽他們的意見我們一定做到後盾這個我跟部長的想法是一致因為如果對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業部分大小環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾但部長你也曾經說過今年環境部的預算遭申請差不多"},{"start":317.757,"end":323.262,"text":"3.54%嘛 已經4%了那凍結12.83%那氣候變遷署所當其衝然後可能影響到這個500場的排碳大戶的碳匯自主減量計畫審查進度以及到歐盟協調這個碳匯扣底的比例"},{"start":337.595,"end":343.458,"text":"並會減少台灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。所以環境部氣候署自己也已經靈菩薩過疆了,自身難保了,要怎麼在這次的關稅當產業的後盾,輔導產業順利減淡減輕損失。"},{"start":354.184,"end":371.372,"text":"好,報告委員這個部分我們是補強的方式第一個我們額外在行政院在爭取一些支持啦經費上的一個支持那另外一個呢是我們在經費上也在做一些移環經費行政院也是你不是要過將喔對,等於是我們大家都在很辛苦的來面對啦也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手齁"},{"start":373.493,"end":397.169,"text":"還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為兩週內給委員會做一個參考好不好好沒問題那今天有兩個專題嘛第二個就是我們除了要因應這個川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨的衝擊外另外是針對國內校園賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防治的經濟作為我對安排這個專題是不僅是本會期的開始"},{"start":403.333,"end":424.57,"text":"CO2的數值的監控儀器發現各大委員會開會時廠長也標到1000ppm以上超過環境庇護的精英值我想同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心這個校園、實驗室、場館等室內空瓶的標準目前坦白講"},{"start":426.138,"end":451.312,"text":"看不到一個更積極的管理因應作為這是第一件事情我要直白講的就是說臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法從一百年在立法院立法完成之後實際上是坦平啦實際上是坦平齁這個跟民眾稀疑相關的一部法律齁可以從立法到之間整整十四年完全不用修法也完全沒有檢視自我自在難行"},{"start":452.894,"end":462.999,"text":"這個是真的有很大的問題齁如果這個法律專門完美就不會有以下這一則的新聞發生齁部長看一下這叫什麼LALAPO在哪裡"},{"start":475.216,"end":482.067,"text":"南港你還練得清楚,你不曉得他在哪裡,我還練不清楚過一個拉拉破變成人體"},{"start":484.69,"end":508.055,"text":"空氣清淨機逛到一半眼睛腫痛然後爆過敏性的睫毛炎一票網友也受害那台北市在3月20號的新開幕的一個購物中心四天吸引差不多20萬人潮結果有民眾在網路反映然後有投影片這個甲酸味確實蠻重的在一樓就可以聞到"},{"start":509.855,"end":524.371,"text":"然後樓上味道很重真的不想待很久這是網友的一些說法然後還說我的眼睛超不舒服的大家進去當人體空氣清淨機然後去完過大過敏味道超刺鼻等等等我就不再贅述了賣場回應"},{"start":526.573,"end":542.003,"text":"目前商場仍在部分櫃位正在裝修中但基於施工的規範進行空瓶的數值也符合標準並無超標的實際狀況來發生雖然每個人對氣味感受不同但仍會針對這個設施內的空瓶持續的監測與留心"},{"start":548.069,"end":560.9,"text":"我要表達說民眾一邊逛街,賣場一邊裝修,那民眾管理有甲酸胃、甲醛胃、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻,賣場還說一切合格,逛街民眾的感受度,所以這到底是誰的問題?"},{"start":563.439,"end":582.896,"text":"今天我們有邀請基部跟勞動部一起出席當逛街的民眾有這種問題人家賣場裡面還有貴位的員工嘛對不對還有施工的工人他們就不會受到影響也許員工跟工作的勞工在場裡整整待了一天到底他們的安全誰來把關"},{"start":584.278,"end":589.622,"text":"那我再回到這個數據啦,稀厚度的數值,超過1000ppm,我們委會會,環境部會給我們訊息說,就會產生頭痛啦、視罪啦、反射減退、倦怠等症狀,賣場開幕4天,然後擁護20萬人潮,這個稀厚度到底是誰來把關?"},{"start":607.947,"end":633.936,"text":"包委員這個其實三月的時候因為發生這個問題的時候環保局台北市環保局已經去查了那查驗的結果還沒有正式公開那目前我們來看應該不是甲醛可能有別的這個污染物現在等到他們正式的公佈我們才可以對外說那目前這個Lalapo因為他目前他還沒有依據我們這個室內空瓶法的這個維護管理計畫跟設置專職人員所以其實目前台北市環保局正在處理當中"},{"start":634.696,"end":656.413,"text":"好,部長你答問我,台北市環保局有去稽查嘛,到現在還沒有結論嘛。對,對,對。3月20號開幕了。對,3月21號他就去了。對,3月21號就去了。對,對,對。去了,你知道他去幹嘛?稽查嘛,對不對?去稽查,對,對,對。好,那你看這個過程。3月20開幕,3月21號他就去了,是不是去了啊?3月24要求四次專職人員,然後4月2號,北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。對。"},{"start":663.564,"end":681.813,"text":"你覺得這程序沒有問題?有改進的空間啊?沒有把我跳過去嗎?你跟環保局不是一樣21號20號開幕連續4天21號去採樣然後現在24號要求設置專責人員4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣足足過了快兩個禮拜"},{"start":693.559,"end":713.781,"text":"這個程序部長你怎麼看?他到底要採什麼東西?他採的是例如說因為通常我們這個新裝潢部長打我他可能不是什麼假不是什麼什麼已經很難去論斷了啦對不對開幕四天二十萬他到開幕四三月二十號他到四月二號才去採樣"},{"start":717.945,"end":727.91,"text":"這應該要更積極的來管理啦所以這就是有問題嘛 對不對好 你再看齁 環境部訂的CO2監測值是1000ppm我們責任署訂的CO2標準是5000ppm沒有錯吧 對吧這兩個人物差為什麼這麼大我來 署長我給他叫一遍啦你兩個單獨沒得說就好"},{"start":743.36,"end":757.199,"text":"跟委員報告這個兩個法它適用的環境跟對象不一樣在子彈法的話它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質所以它在這個或是說剛剛委員提到這個5000 ppm這部分當時在"},{"start":760.003,"end":779.555,"text":"跟學者專家在制定的時候是有參考國外的一個標準目前英國跟美國都還是才工作場所裡面還是才5000的PBM我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面他可能會產生CO2像是我們在做那個碳酸飲料的工廠裡面他就會有可能他的副產品就是CO2所以他在這個整個當時在設這個標準的時候就採取比較高的一個標準"},{"start":783.917,"end":812.428,"text":"但是我們是在治安法的部分是用這個整個安全衛生的控制措施在避免這個勞工遭受到危害我應該剛剛都有把問題挑出來講了治安署站在治安署的本業裡面去看待他可能是在一個勞動的一個環境裡面但是你看這一個事件裡面他不是有賣場他有勞動的環境到時候你們兩個單位到的時候一個講一千一個講五千"},{"start":814.919,"end":831.51,"text":"你們可以在現場裡面去做這樣的分開去認定嗎?我想也有困難吧?這個是屬於我們這個室內空瓶法的公告的場所,所以他要照我們的一簽。是,但是他也當下還在持續施工。"},{"start":832.844,"end":853.152,"text":"我剛剛有講了啊,它當下在持續的施工啊,這賣場自己講的啊所以我才講說一部法律營業,等於是兩部法律在看同一個場子但是有不一樣的樣態,一個是賣場它現在在營業,另外一個它還持續在加工那這顯然不是很大的吞吐跟矛盾"},{"start":855.578,"end":872.386,"text":"包委員我的認定是只要是室內空瓶它只要是有人潮可以進去的話就應該適用於我們的法令那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂的工廠型的在施工型的這個基本上只要有我們的民眾去就應該適用我們1000ppm的規定不不不 等一下"},{"start":874.387,"end":890.883,"text":"這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態在發生中嘛對不對我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦我覺得我們國內對室內空瓶的這樣的一個要求跟標準跟積極的作為真的是很薄弱我才會講說這部法律躺了14年了通過之後不等不等了"},{"start":891.884,"end":915.479,"text":"這不對啦,這不對啦,好不好?我好像包含這個稽查程序,地方政府是這種稽查的程序,又更不對嘛,對不對?是不是請部長,可以召集,包含我們未來的署長,大家一起共同召開一次,針對室內空瓶的這樣一個秀啊,包含用這樣的這一次的這個事件來看,不管是治安署,不管是我們環境部,到底應該如何來?"},{"start":916.4,"end":939.287,"text":"把這個法可以修得更完備啦好不好因為我們也提出了我們的空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法那我們也把這個室內空瓶這個法也把它放進去一起來看這個事情一個月內嘛可以吧這個來得及嗎應該來得及啦我們先開會言商好不好先開會言商然後再給委員答覆"},{"start":941.26,"end":949.45,"text":"我還是要求一個時間啦你一個月不行不然最少兩個月嘛可以吧好謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請陀軒吉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時48分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，美國家大業大，排碳也是全球第二大，所以美國的一舉一動都會衝擊到全球各國的經濟與政策的發展，這是不爭的事實，就好比這次川普調高關稅，引發各國這樣一連串的化學反應，也讓各界開始擔憂會衝擊到全球減碳淨零這樣的腳步，但是我發現彭部長在媒體上的發言都表現出相當樂觀的態度，認為減碳上與美國有非常大的合作空間。","部長可以看你的說法，在1月22日還有3月31日的報導，你大致上歸納兩點，第一個就是全球減碳的趨勢不可擋，臺灣將積極強化與美國合作，第二個、不是只看「川普要轉彎了，不用做減碳」，而是要聚焦如何加大與美國的合作力道，做更有效的對接。沒有錯嘛！這是部長講的……"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛講之前核能的事情是有斷章取義，這個部分應該是沒有，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：我不反對部長的樂觀，但是這個前提還是必須要審慎才能夠樂觀。川普在1月20日上任之後，當天就宣布要退出巴黎協定，這個對全球的減碳計畫一定會造成衝擊，但是我不曉得部長有沒有注意到，紐約時報在4月10日有一篇報導，據傳美國環境保護署（EPA）目前正推動大幅削減溫室氣體通報計畫的範圍，這將使美國多數大型污染不再需要公開揭露其二氧化碳及其導致地球暖化的氣體排放量。這個雖然沒有得到美國官方的證實，但是實際上紐約時報也是一個權威性的媒體，我想它一定有所本。就川普上任之後的作為，我們可以發現他是比較維護企業的利益，但是這種作為對減碳淨零其實有巨大的衝擊。誠如部長早上的報告，臺灣是氣候受害的國家，我想環境部可以樂觀，但是相關的因應必須提早要有作為啊！部長可以認同嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：非常認同，報告委員，你剛才說的美國環保署的確在修改各種空污或是污染的標準，在放寬當中，而且是要以經濟讓美國再次偉大為前提來發展環保，的確跟目前環境部推動的臺灣環境保護是有一點點不大一樣，但是我們目前來看的話，因為這只是一個短期的現象，我們還是很謹慎地來因應各種未來的可能。它的變化到底衝擊有多大，我們的確是很謹慎地來……"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["彭部長啓明：但是淨零我們還是要樂觀，還是要努力鼓勵大家去做。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！所以要謹慎、要審慎。臺灣今年的碳費率正式生效，5月就要馬上進行test的申報，對不對？然後明年5月正式開始繳交114年度排放量的碳費，目前預定的期程應該都沒有改變嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有改變。"],["劉委員建國：OK，好，如果都沒有改變的情況之下，美國對等關稅把臺灣列為提高到32%的國家，現在已經剩下不到90天的談判期，萬一確定了，過了這90天之後，確定有某些的碳排產業成為關稅的受災戶，環境部有什麼因應的方案嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為錢是明年的5月31號才要繳，所以我們有一段的時間可以緩衝，不是馬上就得去決定，所以我們會看譬如90天後，現在只剩下八十幾天了，八、九十天以後到底實際上受多少影響，甚至到明年，我們會配合來進行滾動式的調整。基本上，我的理念還是一樣，要讓企業可以活下去，然後他們需要一些幫忙，我們額外會爭取預算來幫產業的忙。"],["劉委員建國：就是做企業的後盾嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以我們的淨零目標不會走回頭路，但達成的時間點是否有變化或是要因應企業實際的狀況，這個都是要列入考慮。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：或立刻去了解排碳大戶的狀況，聽聽他們意見，我們一定做它的後盾。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：我跟部長的想法是一致，對於關稅受到影響的碳排產業不分大小，環境部、政府都是必須要做他們最堅強的後盾。部長也曾經說過，今年環境部的預算遭刪減差不多3.54%嘛！將近4%了，凍結12.83%，氣候變遷署首當其衝，然後可能影響到500場排碳大戶的碳費自主減量計畫審查進度，以及到歐盟協調碳費扣抵的比例，並會減少臺灣參與國際氣候談判的機會。坦白講，環境部氣候署自己也已經泥菩薩過江──自身難保了，要怎麼在這次的關稅中當產業的後盾，輔導產業順利減碳、減輕損失？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個部分我們是補強的方式，第一個，我們額外在行政院再爭取一些支持，經費上的支持。另外一個是我們在經費上也在做一些……"],["劉委員建國：行政院也是泥菩薩過江喔！"],["彭部長啓明：對，等於是大家都很辛苦來面對，也希望未來立法院能夠高抬貴手，能夠……"],["劉委員建國：還是請部長是不是有相關的一些因應作為，兩週內給委員會參考，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：可以啦！今天有兩個專題，第二個就是我們除了要因應川普的對等關稅造成碳排淨零的衝擊外，另外是針對國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物的管理及防制的精進作為，我特別幫你安排這個專題，不僅是本會期開始各大委員會都裝設了CO2數值的監控儀器，發現各大委員會開會時常常也飆到1,000ppm以上，超過環境部的建議值。同時委員會的很多委員也都一直在關心的校園、實驗室、場館等室內空品的標準，目前坦白講，看不到更積極的管理因應作為啦！這是第一件事情，我要直白講的就是說，臺灣的室內空氣品質管理法，從100年在立法院立法完成之後，實際上是躺平，跟民眾息息相關的一部法律，可以從立法到施行整整14年完全不用修法，也完全沒有檢視是否窒礙難行，這個真的有很大的問題。如果這個法律這麼完美就不會有以下這一則新聞發生，部長看一下，這個叫做什麼？LaLaport……"],["彭部長啓明：LaLaport！"],["劉委員建國：LaLaport！我沒有去過，抱歉，LaLaport在哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：南港。"],["劉委員建國：OK！你還唸得清楚，也不曉得它在哪裡？我還唸不清楚呢！「逛LaLaport，變成『人體空氣清淨機』，他逛到一半眼睛腫痛，爆過敏性結膜炎，一票網友也受害」。臺北市在3月20號新開幕一個購物中心，4天吸引差不多20萬人潮，結果民眾在網路反映，投影片有提到：「甲醛味確實蠻重的，在一樓就可以聞到」，「樓上味道很重，真的不想待很久」，這是網友的一些說法，然後還有「眼睛超不舒服」、「大家進去當人體空氣清新機」、「去玩到過敏」、「味道超刺鼻」等等，我就不再贅述。賣場的回應是目前商場部分櫃位仍正在裝修中，皆按施工規範進行，空氣品質也符合標準，並無超標的實際狀況發生，雖然每個人對氣味感受不同，但仍會針對設施內的空品持續監測與留心。","我要表達的是，民眾一邊逛街，賣場一邊裝修，民眾反映有甲醛味、眼睛痛、味道刺鼻，賣場還說一切合格。對於逛街民眾的感受度，所以這到底是誰的問題？今天我們有邀經濟部跟勞動部一起出席，當逛街的民眾有這樣的問題，難道賣場裡面、還有櫃位的員工、施工的工人，他們就不會受到影響？尤其員工跟工作的勞工在場域中整整待了一天，到底他們的安全誰來把關？我們再回到這個數據，CO2數值超過1,000ppm，而環境部給我們的訊息是會產生頭痛、嗜睡、反射減退、倦怠等症狀。賣場開幕4天，然後湧入20萬的人潮，CO2到底誰來把關？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實3月發生這個問題的時候，臺北市環保局已經去查了，查驗的結果還沒有正式公開，目前我們來看，應該不是甲醛，可能有別的污染物，現在等到他們正式公布，我們才可以對外說。因為目前LaLaport還沒有依據室內空品法的維護管理計畫設置專責人員，所以其實目前臺北市環保局正在處理當中。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長，你答復我臺北市環保局有去稽查，到現在還沒有結論。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：3月20號開幕了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，3月21號它就去了。"],["劉委員建國：對，3月21號就去了，你知道它去幹嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：去稽查。"],["劉委員建國：好，你看這個過程，3月20號開幕，3月21號它就去了，真的是去了；3月24號要求設置專責人員，然後4月2號北市環保局請檢測公司採樣。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：你覺得這個程序沒有問題？"],["彭部長啓明：有改進的空間啦！真的是……"],["劉委員建國：你跟環保局不是一樣嗎？20號開幕，連續4天，21號去採樣，然後3月24號要求設置專責人員，4月2號北市環保局才請檢測公司去採樣，足足過了快兩個禮拜，這個程序部長怎麼看？它到底要採什麼東西？"],["彭部長啓明：它採的是……例如說，因為通常新裝潢……"],["劉委員建國：所以剛剛部長答復我，它可能不是什麼甲醛或不是什麼的，已經很難去論斷了，對不對？開幕4天有20萬人，開幕是3月20號，它到4月2號才去採樣。"],["彭部長啓明：這應該要更積極地來管理啦！"],["劉委員建國：所以這就是有問題嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：你再看，環境部定的CO2建議值是1,000ppm，職安署定的CO2標準是5,000ppm，沒有錯吧，對嗎？這兩個落差為什麼這麼大？署長，我先叫你「署長」好了，請問你們兩個單位沒辦法講好嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這兩個法適用的環境跟對象不一樣，在職安法的話，它適用的是在特定的場域有使用到化學物質或是剛剛委員提到5,000ppm，這部分當時在跟學者專家制定的時候，是有參考國外的標準，目前英國跟美國在工作場所裡面還是採5,000ppm，我想他的考量是因為在特定的工作場所裡面，它可能會產生CO2，像說我們在做碳酸飲料的工廠裡面，它的副產品就會有可能是CO2，所以當時在設這個標準的時候，就採取比較高的一個標準，但是在職安法的部分是用整個安全衛生的控制措施，避免勞工遭受到危害。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛應該都有把問題挑出來講了，職安署站在職安署的本業裡面去看待，它可能是在一個勞動的環境裡面，但是你看這一個事件，它不只有賣場，它也有勞動的環境，到時候你們兩個單位一到的時候，一個講1,000ppm，一個講5,000ppm，你們可以在現場分開去做認定嗎？我想也有困難吧？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是屬於我們室內空品法公告的場所，所以它要照我們的1,000ppm。"],["劉委員建國：是，但是它當下還在持續施工，我剛剛有講了，它當下還在持續施工，這賣場自己講的啊！所以我才想這等於是兩部法律在看同一個場址，但是有不一樣的樣態，一個是賣場，它現在營業；另外一個，它是持續在加工，這顯然不是很大的衝突跟矛盾？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我的認定是只要是室內空品，只要是有人潮可以進去的話，就應該適用於我們的法令，那勞動部這邊應該是屬於這種所謂工廠型的、在施工型，基本上，只要有民眾去，就應該適用我們1,000ppm的規定。"],["劉委員建國：不，部長，當下是這兩個樣態都持續在進行中兩個樣態都在發生中嘛，對不對？我還是要回歸到一句話就對了啦，我覺得我們國內對室內空品的要求跟標準跟積極的作為，真的是很薄弱，我才會講這部法律躺了14年，通過之後卻不能動了，這不對啦！好不好？包含稽查程序，地方政府是這種稽查的程序，又更不對嘛，對不對？是不是請部長可以召集，包括我們未來的署長，大家一起共同召開一次會議，針對室內空品的修法，包含用這一次的事件來看，不管是職安署還是環境部，到底應該如何把這個法修得更完備，好不好？可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們也提出了空污法可能未來會開始研議要來修法，我們也會把室內空品法放進去，一起來看這個事情。"],["劉委員建國：一個月內可以吧？應該來得及吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我們先開會研商，好不好？先開會研商，然後再給委員答復。"],["劉委員建國：我還是要求一個時間，你一個月不行，不然最少兩個月，可以吧？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}},{"id":"160312","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160312","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4784a2cfd51dfbcfa320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b492d37d3f517c779ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:51:26 - 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未來還是海委會來監督不會有規避的問題那就海委會來講我們設置這個行政法人因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料的調查船的部分他需要非常高度專業的這些人才的一個禁用然後包括他未來運作上的一個彈性效能等等所以評估之後我們確實認為說有設立行政法人的這樣的一個必要"},{"start":113.095,"end":138.727,"text":"但是因為你們之前才設立了這個國家海洋研究院我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊那所以沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下可能另外在職缺的部分然後可以透過約聘人員然後等等的讓它更為彈性而不需要在政府的既有這個已經相當繁複的組織架構底下然後又再多增設一個海洋科技營運中心"},{"start":139.327,"end":156.352,"text":"根本報告我們當初有跟院裡面來請證這些相關的人員那因為他有上百位的人員然後包括這些非常專業的這樣子的一個人才很難用公務員考試的方式來聘用所以院裡面也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人"},{"start":156.772,"end":172.367,"text":"那國海院跟這個設置中心跟這個營運中心事實上它的業務是有區隔的不會重疊那特別是這個營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的一個營運還有調查船的整個的管理維運等等它是副主要的一個功能"},{"start":173.106,"end":192.51,"text":"所以就是說只是為了一個調查船 什麼船模中心有沒有必要特別在額外再增設一個機構然後來做這方面的營運更何況我們知道其實就現在我們沒有看到就是你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心預估未來會有多少的經費規模你們的預算規模是多少"},{"start":196.834,"end":213.145,"text":"人員的部分國海院目前只有78元我們要增加事實上非常困難我說海洋科技營運中心你們未來預估要花政府多少錢經費的部分我們從115年開始預估115年下半年我們還需要大概6000萬左右的經費然後116、117、118大概差不多3億左右的這樣子的一個經費的估算"},{"start":219.918,"end":236.747,"text":"所以未來大概就是3億對就是後三年對116到118對我的意思是說你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話大概會每年大概預算就是差不多3億3億左右嗎還是更高"},{"start":238.314,"end":265.069,"text":"到18是3億左右對但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運然後他會有受託一些的業務等等的也會降低這個政府的在的支出然後會有自償率的這樣提高是因為現在的這個我們看到我現在盧列的這個行政法人其實他們遇到了一些問題就是他們自籌能力都不好"},{"start":266.645,"end":290.312,"text":"大部分都是靠政府的預算的捐補助來指引或者是說他們可能拿的相關研究計畫也都是從其他的部會機關所取得所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於說第一個跟現行的組織有沒有疊床加屋第二個他們的自從能力"},{"start":290.912,"end":298.741,"text":"裁員自籌能力如何那你們現在就是看起來海洋科技營運中心為了他們可以從哪裡可以自主裁員自籌裁員從哪些"},{"start":302.815,"end":326.09,"text":"現在目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給一些外面的單位或學校來去執行這樣子的一個計畫那未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話當然國海院本身的一個義務就是要做全海域的調查那這些的一個經費裡面事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託來委託這個行政法人來做這樣子的一個執行這是第一個"},{"start":326.63,"end":347.751,"text":"那第二個我們也期待說未來這個整個船舶實驗室如果能夠如期的一個完成的話那未來甚至可以針對這個國內的相關的一個部會的特殊的一個船舶甚至是商業的船舶特殊的商業船舶的一個需求那這部分也是一個輸入來源那未來在更穩定的一個發展之下我們希望說也能夠來去接受這個國外的一個所謂的船舶的一個委託"},{"start":348.655,"end":375.528,"text":"是 如果說聽你們這樣講的話看起來就是未來海洋科技營運中心的主要的這個自籌來源又還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定他給了這個海洋科技營運中心之後可能要補助給其他學校機關團體的經費就又沒有了所以我的想法是說其實你海洋科技營運中心應該要有個很清楚的未來的自籌比例"},{"start":376.408,"end":399.739,"text":"至少差不多一半以上他未來可以透過自籌裁員來支應否則的話我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔不會全就是由國海院這邊直接全部由他那邊轉因為我們將來受託包括那個船母實驗有商船啦一般性的一些船舶啦那這些都是他的收入來源那我們會朝委員所期許的我們可以至少可以超過一半這樣子的一個自籌"},{"start":400.919,"end":429.178,"text":"我希望說這個之後你們可以再提供一個比較清楚的未來五年這個假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後它的自籌比例的規劃以及它的自籌裁員的管道是如何因為這個我們看到過去的例子這些行政法人其實他們成立之後後來都面臨到就營運上面的困難那我不希望說之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍"},{"start":431.179,"end":434.683,"text":"自己生存下來的能力還要拖垮政府的負擔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時51分）謝謝主席。有請吳副主委。"],["主席：有請吳副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天大家很關心的就是，未來海委會底下是不是有必要設置國家海洋科技營運中心，因為這看起來是在民進黨政府執政的任期內，又多增加行政法人。我們先來看，民進黨政府這些年其實已經設置了蠻多的行政法人，從107年以來，陸陸續續設置了大概有七、八個行政法人。其實我們知道設置行政法人有一個很大的問題，應該說外界會質疑設置行政法人，是不是有意要規避政府的監督？就這個部分，你怎麼看？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：未來還是海委會來監督，不會有規避的問題。就海委會來講，我們設置這個行政法人，因為船模實驗室跟基礎資料調查船需要進用非常高度專業的這些人才，包括未來運作上的彈性、效能等等，所以評估之後，我們認為確實有設立行政法人這樣的必要。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是你們之前才設立了國家海洋研究院，我們可以看到兩邊的業務範圍其實有相當程度的重疊，難道沒有辦法在國家海洋研究院底下，另外增設職缺，可以透過約聘人員等等，讓它更為彈性，就不需要在政府既有已經相當繁複的組織架構底下，又再多增設海洋科技營運中心？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們當初有跟院裡請增相關人員，因為有上百位人員，包括這些非常專業的人才，很難用公務員高考考試的方式來聘用，所以院裡也請我們來思考要不要設立行政法人。事實上國海院跟這個營運中心的業務是有區隔的，不會重疊，特別是營運中心將來對於船模實驗室的營運，還有調查船的管理、維運等等，這是它主要的功能。"],["翁委員曉玲：也就是只是為了調查船、船模實驗室，有沒有必要特別再額外增設機構來做這方面的營運？更何況我們知道，現在我沒有看到你們對於要成立海洋科技營運中心，預估未來會有多少的經費規模。你們的預算規模是多少？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：人員的部分，國海院目前只有78員，要增加事實上非常困難，然後經費的部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：我是說海洋科技營運中心，你們預估未來要花政府多少錢？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：經費的部分我們從115年開始，預估115年下半年還需要大概6,000萬左右的經費，然後116年、117年、118年估算差不多3億左右的經費。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以未來大概就是3億成立海洋……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，就是後三年，116年到118年。"],["翁委員曉玲：我的意思是說，你們這裡接下來如果要成立國家海洋科技營運中心的話，每年大概預算就是差不多3億左右嗎？還是更高？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：到118年是3億左右，但未來因為我們的行政法人會自主營運，它會受託一些業務等等，也會降低政府的支出，然後自償率會提高。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，因為我們看到我現在臚列的行政法人，其實他們遇到一些問題就是自籌能力都不好，大部分都是靠政府預算的捐補助來支應，或者是他們的相關研究計畫也可能都是從其他的部會機關取得。所以其實成立一個行政法人最重要的問題還是在於，第一個，跟現行的組織有沒有疊床架屋；第二個，他們的財源自籌能力如何。海洋科技營運中心未來可以從哪裡自籌財源？從哪些地方可以自籌財源？"],["陳院長璋玲：現在的初步規劃，事實上目前我們國海院的委辦計畫裡面也都是委託給外面的單位或學校去執行這樣的計畫，未來如果行政法人能夠順利成立的話，當然國海院本身的義務就是要做全海域的調查，這些經費裡面，事實上我們就可以依照行政程序法裡面的行政委託，委託行政法人做這樣的執行，這是第一個。","第二個。我們也期待未來整個船模實驗室如果能夠如期完成的話，未來甚至可以針對國內相關部會的特殊船舶，甚至是商業船舶，即特殊商業船舶的需求，這部分也是一個收入來源。未來在更穩定的發展之下，我們希望也能夠來接受國外船模的委託。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，如果聽你們這樣講的話，看起來未來海洋科技營運中心主要的自籌來源還是回到由海洋研究院這裡來支應，但是海洋研究院的預算也是有一定，它給了海洋科技營運中心之後，可能要補助給其他學校、機關團體的經費就又沒有了。所以我的想法是，其實海洋科技營運中心未來應該要有一個很清楚的自籌比例，至少差不多要一半以上，它未來可以透過自籌財源來支應，否則的話，我覺得這也是增加政府的負擔。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：不會直接全部由國海院那邊轉，因為我們將來受託包括船模實驗有商船、一般性的船舶，這些都是它的收入來源，我們會朝委員所期許的，至少可以超過一半自籌。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望之後你們可以再提供比較清楚的資料，說明未來五年假設海洋科技營運中心成立之後，它的自籌比例規劃以及它的自籌財源管道是如何。我們看到過去的例子，其實這些行政法人成立之後，後來都面臨營運上的困難。我不希望之後成立了海洋科技營運中心又重蹈覆轍，不僅沒有自己生存下來的能力，還要拖垮政府的負擔，以上。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：再提供資料給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：希望你們一個月之內給我提供報告。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","接下來有請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160311","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a413c54086f22eeb94320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b49ed10e96a0c6279545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:43:13 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那第二個部分因為其實你們用這樣子的一個組織最重要的就是人才的培育所以本席這邊要談的是人才培訓跟留任的這個問題如果你們能夠有這麼多專業人才那你們一直強調船舶的操作 海洋的調查還有設備的操作 船舶設計跟資料分析等等那這個對於我們在海上經常接觸的人都非常的重要"},{"start":265.372,"end":289.045,"text":"但是你們草案目前只有談到人才培訓的同步進行可是卻沒有講到這個相對的具體的時程跟培訓的這個制度所以這也是本席又回到剛才講的效度上的一個問題那對於這個法案通過之後呢那後續的這個部分其實能夠怎麼樣來真正的檢視真的也請你們多加注意"},{"start":289.805,"end":318.558,"text":"但是這邊我們談到的這個人力的培訓其實成本很高那如果沒有合理的薪資升遷管道還有人才養成的這個路徑那我們也可能讓這個中心變成從人才的訓練中心變成人才的儲備中心因此你們能不能具體的交代那未來國家海洋科技營運中心在專業人才培訓的計畫詳細的實行具體的內容還有如何確保人員的留任"},{"start":319.198,"end":336.497,"text":"那這個部分呢其實關係到我們整個海洋技術的研發人才那目前你們有沒有什麼樣子的一個規劃謝謝立委提問我們現在目前船舶部分已經有第一批已經完成第一批的人才培訓了包括國內跟國外的"},{"start":338.679,"end":356.332,"text":"現在目前就是還會在明年開始又會針對船模 船模的製造就是做把大船變成小船的那個船模製造也會啟動這個所謂的國內人才的一個培訓那當然我們也希望啦這一些透過培訓的這些人才能夠留任下來"},{"start":357.173,"end":367.759,"text":"然後接下去我們法輪成立的時候順便就可以直接來過去那這部分也是我們努力的目標成立委員提到所以我們會在新制的部分也會做這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":369.144,"end":392.14,"text":"好的 那本席這邊希望會後能夠給我補充一下那個時程還有訓練的一個細節 好不好你們留任 最主要是留任的誘因喔好 那最後呢 我還是為我們所在的這個高雄來請命興達港已經形成一個龐大的海洋的這個發展區域中心那麼經濟部有海洋科技產業專區在這邊喔國研院 那個海洋科研中心"},{"start":392.7,"end":413.276,"text":"那另外你們海委會自身的國家船模實驗室跟國海院的試驗園區那整個那麼多的重大設施在這邊那整個區域範圍這麼大那有這麼多的單位你們如何在現有的機構上的定位的一個分工模式去做一個處理那當然很重要的就是說那請問你們在跨部會協調的初步方案目前是如何規劃的"},{"start":418.58,"end":427.284,"text":"還有未來新設的營運中心有沒有融合園區整體佈局避免土地資源分散重疊使用的情形這個針對"},{"start":430.22,"end":453.703,"text":"這個跨部會我想這個是我們未來都會遇到的這個問題那當然我再回應一下剛才前面有聽到委員對於國安的這個問題非常的重視但是像本席經常在海上對於資訊的公共性也是非常的關心因為好多在海上的水文相關的資訊我們沒有的話那在海上其實也是個困難"},{"start":454.745,"end":468.12,"text":"對國外想要來台灣的人也是一種困難你們如何在國安跟台灣的國際化中間取到一個平衡那這個部分是不是可以在會後給本席一個相關的報告跟回應好嗎 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時43分）主席，還有府院同仁，大家好，是不是先請吳副主委？"],["主席：有請吳副主委。"],["林委員倩綺：或者陳院長也一起來探討這個組織的成立，本席所關心的一些議題。","以目前國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例所送出來的這個草案，是希望透過行政法人，藉由制度鬆綁跟企業化的管理，提升我們海洋科技的研究跟調查能力，但這個草案的一些實施細節、制度設計，及未來的運作，我們也希望有一些疑問能夠有所釐清。這個問題是比較系統性的問題，就是行政法人模式是不是能夠真正落實公眾利益跟績效的監督？這是第一個問題。第二個問題，高度專業人才的培育和留任計畫，可不可以有具體的策略和誘因？這是本席今天的第二個大的系統問題。還有新設的營運中心，如何和現在高雄興達港眾多的海洋科技設施進行明顯的分工跟資源整合，而不會重疊與浪費？本席今天就針對這幾項問題跟貴委員會做個討論。","一開始就是針對國家海洋科技營運中心在加速人事、經費、採購制度的靈活運用上，可能要由行政法人這樣一個主軸來處理，但是過度強調彈性跟效率，伴隨而來的風險就是公務監督的難度增加，公共財產管理的透明度也降低了，還有預算資金運用缺乏妥善管理的問題。很重要的，在這個草案當中，我也沒有看到相對比較明確的評鑑指標、標準跟落實的方式，以及如果沒有能夠達到你們所訂定績效究責的問題，所以本席想要請教一下，海委會如何確保企業化管理模式的國家海洋科技營運中心能夠符合公共利益？在人事鬆綁之後，內控機制會弱化，利益迴避是不是會相對困難？可不可以進一步來說明？剛才本席也提到，有關人員培訓、設備營運效能的具體考核項目跟問責的程序，如果沒有能夠達到你們預期的效益，除了所謂的效益不彰，草案中規定的解散機制以外，你們還有什麼樣的應對措施嗎？麻煩副主委，謝謝。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：必須要用行政法人來設立的必要性，就是剛剛提到它需要進用非常多專業人才，以及運作上的彈性讓它保持效能。委員剛剛關切的，包括監督的機制或者會不會有一些評估的指標，又或者會計制度等等，在條例裡面授權未來要訂定一些子法來建置相關制度。這樣的規定也是參照其他行政法人，我國現有大概11個行政法人，我們參照其他行政法人的立法體例，用授權子法的方式，未來會把委員關切的這些問題，包括績效指標等等，都會在子法裡面更詳細的律定。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝副主委。海委會在監督子法或行政命令訂定的同時，也請注意你們立法的意旨，不要讓後續的作為「走鐘」。","第二個部分，其實你們用這樣的組織最重要的就是人才的培育，所以本席要談人才培訓跟留任的問題，如果你們能夠有這麼多專業人才。你們一直強調船舶的操作、海洋的調查，還有設備的操作、船模設計跟資料分析等等，對於在海上經常接觸的人都非常重要。草案目前只有談到人才培訓的同步進行，卻沒有講到相對具體的時程跟培訓制度，所以這又回到本席剛才講效度上的問題。對於這個法案通過之後，後續的部分能夠怎麼樣來真正的檢視，真的也請你們多加注意。但我要談的是，人力培訓的成本其實很高，如果沒有合理的薪資、升遷管道，還有人才養成路徑，我們也可能讓這個中心從人才的訓練中心變成人才的儲備中心，因此，你們能不能具體的交代，未來國家海洋科技營運中心在專業人才培訓的計畫、詳細的時程、具體的內容，還有如何確保人員的留任？這個部分關係到整個海洋技術的研發人才，目前你們有沒有什麼樣的規劃？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：國海院相關的規劃？"],["林委員倩綺：是。"],["陳院長璋玲：謝謝委員提問。目前船模的部分，已經完成第一批的人才培訓了，包括國內跟國外有12位。明年開始會針對船模的製造，就是把大船變成小船的船模製造，也會啟動所謂的國內人才培訓。當然我們也希望這一些透過培訓的人才能夠留任，接下來，我們法人成立的時候，就可以直接過去。這部分也是我們努力的目標，誠如委員提到的，而我們在薪資的部分也會做這樣的考量。"],["林委員倩綺：本席希望會後能夠給我補充一下時程還有訓練的細節，好不好？最主要是留任的誘因。","最後，我還是為我們所在的高雄來請命。興達港已經形成一個龐大的海洋發展區域中心，經濟部在這邊有海洋科技產業專區，國研院有海洋科研中心，另外還有海委會自身的國家船模實驗室跟國海院試驗園區。有那麼多的重大設施在這邊，整個區域範圍這麼大，有這麼多的單位，你們如何在現有的機構定位分工模式去處理？當然很重要的是，請問你們在跨部會協調的初步方案，目前是如何規劃的？還有未來新設的營運中心，有沒有融合園區整體布局，避免土地資源分散、重疊使用的情形？針對這個部分，我想是未來跨部會都會遇到的問題。","我再回應一下，剛才我聽到前面有委員對於國安的問題非常重視，像本席經常在海上，對於資訊的公共性也是非常關心，因為好多在海上的水文，我們沒有相關資訊的話，在海上其實也是個困難，對國外想要來臺灣的人也是一種困難。你們如何在國安跟臺灣的國際化中間取得平衡，這個部分是不是可以在會後給本席一個相關的報告跟回應，好嗎？謝謝。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。","主席先作會議程序宣告：由於上午會議進行到現在都沒有休息，稍後在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢以後，休息5分鐘。","接下來有請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160310","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4f37bbdd5a3b3a453320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b498a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:36:32 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謝謝主席 我們請副主委請副主委"},{"start":15.045,"end":39.539,"text":"今天我們要來審查這個國家海洋科技營運中心的草案的條例當然我非常肯定因為我覺得這個是在國建國造的基礎之下非常重要的延伸因為有這個傳播實驗室建立之後我們才會有一些基礎數據才可以繼續做好我們的關鍵基礎設施那這個傳播設計能力當然也非常重要那我在這邊想要提一個接下來可能會有的風險"},{"start":40.62,"end":62.373,"text":"就是這個草案設置下去之後我們必須要慎防我們裡面的非常重要的機敏資訊不應該外流怎麼說呢因為我看一下其實你們一直都 海委會一直都有跟像我們高雄有兩個是有海事相關的科系的學校像是中山大學 高雄科技大學都有很好的交流"},{"start":63.013,"end":85.387,"text":"那這個當然我非常認同那可是這種合作接下來在如果是碰到相關國防相關的機密以及你們重要的基礎資訊是不是會有一些風險在這邊想要提醒就是因為接下來你們會辦理一些海洋的調查還有實驗技術的研究很多都是機密的資訊尤其是海洋地形會測數據"},{"start":87.348,"end":105.632,"text":"那這個未來都是我們潛艦作戰非常重要的基礎那我們到底要怎麼保障我們的數據安全呢我在這邊提一個喔因為其實你也知道說現在世界各地包括歐洲包括美國都在打擊中國的學術間諜可是我們這兩個學校啊交流的對象裡面"},{"start":110.333,"end":139.253,"text":"有很多中國的軍工大學那你也知道說其實我們最近才剛公告我們教育部有公告我國的大學跟中國的國防七子跟統戰部的三校總共有十個學校就是他們所謂那幾個為解放軍效力的然後研究都是為了要提供給解放軍資訊的十個統戰學校裡面我們中山大學交流的對象就有三間是本次被禁止交流的對象"},{"start":140.73,"end":161.611,"text":"高雄科技大學姊妹校裡面也有一間屬於中國的國防棲子也就是說接下來我們在我們這個這麼好的學校接下來跟他們進行這個海洋科學研究的交流的時候會不會有這個中國學術間諜的風險呢在這邊先請副主委回答"},{"start":162.892,"end":184.294,"text":"我們這個中心的人員的聘用我們非常重視特別是機敏資訊的維護所以我們未來會有一個安全的查核辦法對於這些人員的禁用的部分會有一般性的查核跟特殊查核那特殊查核的部分我們會協調安全單位一起來做協助那這些工作都是由海委會來做一個監督的工作"},{"start":185.992,"end":205.365,"text":"對 這就是我想在這邊提醒的因為其實我們這一次我們賴總統也講得很明確嘛17項的國安的統戰因應策略裡面學術也是一個重點尤其是接下來任何的學術交流都應該要去政治化 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謝謝主席 我們請主委好 主委 林主委好 委員好主委好我剛才剛才心存說到氣到要死其實主委我覺得運動會應該要講很清楚就是說哪一些是你工作要調查直接的有一些是你間接的但是直接的要列入你的"},{"start":28.759,"end":50.73,"text":"撈出來的主題間接的你要不要撈出來你的主題那到底分際在哪裡你要告訴我清楚甚至就是說到底多嚴重啦因為這防範未然有時候你不知道嚴重到什麼程度所以比如說你以行動隊員來講全世界各國現在的國際標準是什麼你指揮對於行動隊員上飛機的這個國際標準是什麼 主委知道嗎"},{"start":56.638,"end":65.136,"text":"我們手上沒有這個資料都沒人知道 有人知道嗎 原來會有人知道你要再報告一下"},{"start":68.395,"end":92.958,"text":"報告委員那個目前來講在IKEA上面他有一些這樣子的質疑但是並沒有他最主要是說對於飛機上的使用及充電這兩個是禁止的其他關於怎麼樣置放並沒有一個國際上的一個標準所以是禁止使用行動電源禁止使用就是禁止但是攜帶"},{"start":94.099,"end":110.241,"text":"他國際沒有規範所以你就講清楚嘛那主委您知道意思嗎那就是說將來這個行動電源上飛機是要國際規範還是台灣自己要不要規範這個部分你們要研究一下嘛"},{"start":111.562,"end":131.214,"text":"對 臺灣應該要有自己的綠定啦 應該要有啦對每個國家的國情不要假設國際政治有規定 它也是一個最低要求標準而已啊對 所以剛剛新竹委員問的說你們要這樣子確明確的回答 懂我意思嗎你這樣子呼 這樣子回答齁 不怪那天都會想起 你知道嗎"},{"start":132.114,"end":151.643,"text":"你還不放入你的調查範圍之內現在就要等那個真的收起來要真的回紀錄下來要真的很多人過生日這樣才來調查主委你懂我意思嗎我覺得你將來可能這個部分回答要精準一點是 謝謝我舉個例子事實上有一些做得好的要謝謝你們你們的那個"},{"start":154.458,"end":179.513,"text":"報告裡面的第二點有講到辦理具先進駕駛輔助系統之電動車輛之調查這個其實本席要求過很多次那看到你們有做我覺得也還蠻高興的啦就是說以前我們看到那個自駕車車禍雖然自駕車車禍死亡人數不足3人但是呢以前你們是死亡人數超過3人才會啟動調查"},{"start":181.014,"end":201.02,"text":"那我現在要求就是之前就要求說你自駕車因為它不只是一般的車輛而已它可能還有一些電腦系統那有一些網路通訊等等的問題所以這個部分你們現在有進入調查我是覺得應該還是給你們肯定啦有做的要額外 沒做的要檢討"},{"start":203.381,"end":226.583,"text":"所以這點也要跟你們討論一下 謝謝你們不過呢 這個還是有所不足就是說這個法規你們可以看到自駕車它分了六等級那現在我們台灣做到的應該是到二就是駕駛它有一些自己可以自控但是還是要有人駕駛三"},{"start":229.349,"end":250.386,"text":"Level 3系統有辨識環境能力駕駛適當干涉這個現在台灣有沒有沒有沒有台灣現在頂多是2.5而已那上面高雄港有港自駕車這是算Level幾你說高雄港有港自駕車"},{"start":252.865,"end":276.324,"text":"這個我...你不曉得?所以你不是說有專案在研究嗎?研究到連郭榮,現在開始做了不知道?高雄這個遊港,這叫做我來依照這個判斷,我覺得他應該是Level 4了因為他在港區內,真的是無人駕駛你只要上去,他就帶你遊港"},{"start":278.134,"end":291.551,"text":"所以我是覺得你們的即時訊息可能要再載入一下要比較敏感一點而且要去了解就是說到底這個自駕系統你們去研究甚至有些那個什麼"},{"start":292.782,"end":321.694,"text":"在地下室召喚的比如說你停車停在地下室那有些人每次都找不到車他就按一下B他就開過來了這個其實是蠻方便的但是現在這個特斯拉有在用對不對對用的結果有沒有安全疑慮那如果對於這個網路通訊演算有一些網路的斷網的時候那他的安全到底有沒有疑慮"},{"start":322.984,"end":351.944,"text":"那你現在這個部分不知道有沒有研究我們還抱歉還沒有這方面的研究所以我看你們的調查你們是調查報告可以給我看一下嗎那個你們調查之後的報告看你們調查哪一些讓我知道一下好不好好好那再來就是說主委其實我跟各位有做要額外沒有做要檢討之前我們看過那個原子能委員會那個我也讓主委看過嘛"},{"start":353.121,"end":375.462,"text":"其實科普教育包括運安、飛安、交通安全的教育很重要其實那個合約所之前我跟他要求人們也做原子能、科技、科普等你看檔案很好也對人民很多一線的學習跟直接的教育有很大的功用那我們來看我們自己的"},{"start":376.581,"end":391.481,"text":"我們自己當時主委都有答應我就是我在112年113年4月113年6月主委都認為說這個中藥那要辦而且會跟交通部跟台鐵一起辦"},{"start":393.463,"end":412.338,"text":"現在你給我答應,還沒辦?去年有辦,去年年底在高雄有辦我們也發了一系列的宣導活動或者是研討會來教育活動譬如說我們還特別到福原大學去宣導航空教育安全海航大學我也有去"},{"start":413.078,"end":415.642,"text":"有六場座談跟研討會那這個是不是有機會像那個我們看後面那個雲子能委會他們辦的"},{"start":426.124,"end":448.558,"text":"所以它這個是就是對社會比較普及的教育啦就類似科普教育這樣子啦那你那個當然是有對象的有做我們也是覺得還不錯啦有進步我們就是先鼓勵嘛後面還有什麼有機會再發展進步的空間像原子能科技科普展這樣子類似的這樣子的活動我們有機會來辦嗎"},{"start":450.659,"end":465.377,"text":"我們可以研究來辦啦這個其實是這個方向是對的還不錯啦是是所以這樣主委有承諾來辦沒問題啦沒問題啦希望說我們可以照主委的承諾齁能夠看到對民間更多你包括普悠瑪啦"},{"start":466.218,"end":485.768,"text":"包括太魯閣啦他這發生到底是什麼情形我們調查他又是怎樣那你比如說你在不同的車廂如果真的有什麼狀況有什麼應變措施有機會減少生命的安全的維護這個部分其實都有一些算是科普教育可以去指導的"},{"start":487.108,"end":515.788,"text":"那包括鐵路局他的慶祝黃豆 事實上我覺得有時候我們不能說今日公祭明日旺祭就是說今天普悠瑪跟太魯閣這個事情在我們印象當中真的都是有很大的傷亡那像這個部分是不是像鐵路局有辦活動之外運動會是不是也可以跟鐵路局一起類似這樣子的一個宣導也讓人民記得這樣子一個傷痛那現在國家是不是已經"},{"start":517.269,"end":532.601,"text":"運安跟鐵路局是不是已經改善將來這個部分的疑慮安全可以沒有安全的疑慮可以將來的行車都可以安全這個部分是不是主委也一併來思考就是說跟鐵路局你們把這個成果總是要讓大家知道一下好不好"},{"start":533.101,"end":551.7,"text":"我們可以把 變成一個鐵道安全的議題然後 把他倒進酒來辦這樣好不好我是希望說 這樣喔 真的我們要看到未來 這個情形不要再發生啦是 謝謝所以最重要 我們運安就是你們處理事故之外以後事故不再發生 這是我們最大的目的嘛是"},{"start":552.14,"end":566.781,"text":"所以希望說這個部分那主委就可以跟鐵路局那一起像這個一個know-how的一個整理然後讓呈現給人民知道我想這個也相當的重要好不好這個就主委也找時間再繼續來辦理好不好好 謝謝 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沒有中華航空只是建議還避免放在位置上方的行李櫃長榮航空沒有明確的規範"},{"start":166.07,"end":193.781,"text":"新宇航空只建議你要隨身攜帶並放置妥當也沒有規範要放在哪裡比較好台灣虎航也沒有明確規範華信航空建議不要將行動電源放置在座位上方的行李櫃利用航空請隨身攜帶也希望不要放在座椅上方的置物櫃放在哪裡是一個重點"},{"start":195.484,"end":224.233,"text":"行動電源之所以會常常在自然也好或者是在飛航的期間也好有沒有發生任何事故的可能性這個都是我們必須要放在心上也希望政府能夠有明確的指引告訴大家我們在坐飛機的時候不容許有一絲一絲的不安全性不容許有一絲絲的風險尤其在飛機上我想主委你同意我的說法吧"},{"start":226.015,"end":236.483,"text":"同意嗎同意同意這個我想這個越來越複雜那個越來越複雜民航局應該要找他們來靠要綠定清楚"},{"start":237.113,"end":262.396,"text":"民航局說他們遵守國際規範啊那國際規範之外呢還是發生事故那我們有沒有更主動明確的去做一個安全指引我要告訴你喔主委你不要告訴我這不是你的事喔你現在一口就說那是民航局的事民航局有事沒事確實他也是他的業務主管他要做那你運安會的高度你們是獨立調查單位"},{"start":263.798,"end":285.912,"text":"4月13號在我們台灣的高鐵也發生了行動電源起火高鐵有通報嗎沒有通報沒有嘛沒有通報那很好很好的是什麼你知道嗎還好不幸中的萬幸是沒有發生什麼問題事故就是所謂的這個行李雖然著火冒煙車廂的這個煙霧的偵測被偵測到了"},{"start":290.536,"end":312.311,"text":"大小但是呢我們有這個旅客來協助滅火器有成功的滅火所以呢那列車長也第一時間有疏散那我相信第一個交通運具裡面的安全問題是屬於我們運安會可不可以做的我告訴你主委你在你的職長裡面"},{"start":314.392,"end":329.037,"text":"運輸事故的趨勢分析運輸安全的改善建議之追蹤以及運輸安全的專案研究這個在你的運安會的執掌這個第二條規定的清清楚楚"},{"start":329.673,"end":347.978,"text":"那你越南會不能被動的有重大事故發生的時候我才要來調查我們國人更希望的是什麼當你注意到這些影響到運輸過程中的安全有這樣子系列性的不斷發生的事件的時候如果有這樣的趨勢"},{"start":349.898,"end":365.563,"text":"那我們能不能主動的來做分析研究來提供一個安全指引主委可不可以謝謝委員你的意見跟我們的做法是一致的我到現在還沒看到啊我們現在是這樣子我們所有的調查案子我們會撈出它的一些議題式的"},{"start":366.443,"end":384.256,"text":"把他撈出來說這幾個案子有共同的系統性的問題那行動電源這個你說你有撈出來那行動電源你有立案來做一個分析研究嗎因為電源的火車它不是高鐵這個它不是屬於正線火災不是屬於重大運輸範圍裡面的應該要調查的範圍那好那你說高鐵不是好"},{"start":385.799,"end":415.132,"text":"不幸中的萬幸沒有人受傷沒有擴大事故那我現在意思喔從飛航當中的行動電源的起火到高鐵裡面的行動電源起火你這一系列的事故你剛剛說嘛你要撈事件嘛撈數據嘛那這樣一系列的這個行動電源的起火了那你認為運安會要不要主動的去做立案分析研析然後有什麼樣的安全指引"},{"start":415.873,"end":432.774,"text":"對 如果他進入我們運輸安全事務調查範圍內的時候就會去撈出來因為這幾個案子就是他有信不信的問題所以你現在跟我說的是我跟你講的這一系列的行動電源起火是跟你沒關係的"},{"start":433.991,"end":449.849,"text":"像高鐵這個它是屬於鐵路行車規則裡面飛行航空當中的行動電源的放置問題呢這也是如果它涉及有延燒然後造成設備損害造成航空機損害的時候我剛剛給你看了那麼多照片不就是了嗎對對對但是這個還有一個界線"},{"start":453.573,"end":472.863,"text":"什麼界限 藝人水利安會 奴隸機關是比較高規格的 這個呢 這個是一般的生活中的小事情 所以跟你藝人會沒有關係嗎他如果在客廂裡面他冒煙 可是他沒有燃燒啊主委 拜託你好不好 你這樣子回答讓人家沒辦法接受欸"},{"start":476.968,"end":486.273,"text":"國人的安全難道會因為他只有冒煙沒有失火不是我是指是不是我們的立案是不是我們立案調查的範圍我是指這個不是說我們不關心我剛剛跟你講你的資料裡面不是只有立案調查啊你還有事故的趨勢的分析啊你還有安全改善建議啊你還可以有安全的專案研究啊"},{"start":500.339,"end":510.161,"text":"沒有錯這個也是我們關注的這個範圍沒有錯那我剛剛就要提醒你啊行動電源會起火會自燃已經不是只有飛機上的問題而已連在高鐵也可能出現這個問題那剛剛很多委員都在關心電動車的電池的問題那表示我們所有陸海空裡面所有的電動的運具裡面的電池的問題行動電源的問題會不會"},{"start":529.824,"end":545.712,"text":"造成我們的交通運具的運輸過程的危險那這樣子夠不夠可以成立一個專案來研究來告訴大家告訴國人說還有告訴所有的交通運具的所屬單位跟他們的從業人員我們碰到這些事情的時候該怎麼應應該怎麼處理該怎麼面對國人的安全是第一要緊的事"},{"start":555.168,"end":571.568,"text":"主委對不對對嘛那你剛剛一開始回答是什麼意思啊不是我剛剛的意思是說他是不是屬於立案範圍裡面但是這個案子確實你的執掌又不是只有立案範圍才要去調查才做調查而已"},{"start":572.609,"end":582.639,"text":"我們不能防範於未然嗎可以可以可以嘛是那我就告訴你已經一系列的事情都發生了行動電源電動車的電磁問題那你運安會可不可以主動的立案來做研究分析來給予安全指引這個有那麼難嗎不會啊我們會立一個案子來做來做持續分析趨勢分析"},{"start":597.261,"end":614.434,"text":"主委啊 主委 你也好有擔當OK啦 OK啦好 最快什麼 多久的時間要成立我們一個月內把它整理出來然後看看我們未來的趨勢要怎麼就後續怎麼計畫做 好不好一個月內喔 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時17分）謝謝召委。我們請林主委。"],["主席：好，請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：主委好。今天早上很多委員都在關心電動車的電池問題，你們說正在調查中，因為有幾件事故已經出現了，我要接著問的也是電池的問題，即行動電源。我們看到國內，112年1月11號有一則通報新聞稿，酷航飛往新加坡的時候，確實行動電源疑過熱起火，機艙內煙霧瀰漫，發生了什麼事？行動電源起火，那有沒有影響飛安？主委，你認為有沒有影響飛安？"],["林主任委員信得：當然有影響飛安啊！"],["何委員欣純：當然有影響飛安。有通報你們，要通報你們，事故調查之後，你們表示本案非屬重大運輸事故，非本會調查範圍。好，我尊重，雖然在那一次酷航事件裡面沒有造成重大的運輸事故，但是我接著要提醒主委，飛機上的行動電源起火，不是只有國內這個酷航的案子，國際上的案例頻傳。釜山航空在2025年1月28號造成飛機的前半段機艙燒毀，你看看連機艙的頂部統統都燒毀；另外，在2025年3月21號，香港航空也是驚傳行李架起火，原來行李架上行李裡面有行動電源，行李架上面的空間也是燒成這個樣子。","我們雖然看到國際的規範裡面，各航空公司在飛機上已經禁用行動電源，但是我看到一件又一件的事故發生，我就盤點了一下，現在各個航空公司雖然在航程當中、航班當中全程禁止使用行動電源跟充電，但是放置的位置有沒有建議、有沒有指引？沒有。中華航空只是建議避免放在位置上方行李櫃；長榮航空沒有明確的規範；星宇航空只是建議要隨身攜帶並放置妥當，也沒有規範要放在哪裡比較好；台灣虎航也沒有明確規範；華信航空建議不要將行動電源放置座位上方行李櫃；立榮航空則是請隨身攜帶，也希望不要放在座椅上方置物櫃。","放在哪裡是一個重點，行動電源之所以常常會自燃也好，或者是在飛航期間也好，有沒有發生任何事故的可能性，這個我們都必須要放在心上，也希望政府能夠有明確的指引告訴大家。我們在坐飛機的時候，不容許有一絲絲的不安全性、不容許有一絲絲風險，尤其在飛機上。我想主委同意我的說法吧？同意嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：同意。我想越來越複雜，民航局應該找他們來開會，要律定清楚。"],["何委員欣純：民航局說他們遵守國際規範啊！國際規範之外，還是發生事故。我們有沒有更主動、明確地去做一個安全指引？我要告訴你，主委不要告訴我這不是你的事喔！你現在一口就說那是民航局的事，民航局有事、沒事，確實他也是其業務主管，他要做。依運安會的高度，你們是獨立調查單位，4月13號台灣高鐵也發生了行動電源起火，高鐵有通報嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有通報。"],["何委員欣純：沒有嘛！沒有通報，那很好，很好的是什麼，你知道嗎？還好不幸中的萬幸是沒有發生什麼事故，這個行李雖然著火、冒煙，車廂的煙霧偵測器偵測到了而大響，但是有旅客協助用滅火器成功滅火，列車長也在第一時間疏散。","第一個，交通運具裡面的安全問題，是不是屬於運安會可以做的，我告訴主委，「運輸事故趨勢分析、運輸安全改善建議之追蹤及運輸安全專案研究」，運安會的職掌在第二條規定得清清楚楚。運安會不能被動地只是有重大事故發生的時候才要調查，國人更希望的是什麼？當你注意到影響運輸過程中的安全有這樣系列性、不斷發生的事件時，如果有這樣的趨勢，我們能不能主動分析研究，提供一個安全指引？主委，可不可以？"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員，你的意見跟我們的作法是一致的……"],["何委員欣純：我到現在還沒看到。"],["林主任委員信得：我們現在是這樣子，所有的調查案子我們會撈出一些議題式的，把它撈出來說這幾個案子有共同的系統性問題，就會變成這樣子……"],["何委員欣純：你說你有撈出來，那行動電源你有立案分析研究嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：高鐵這個不是屬於正線的火災，不是屬於重大運輸事故裡面應該要調查的範圍，但是……"],["何委員欣純：你說高鐵這個不是，好，不幸中的萬幸，沒有人受傷、沒有擴大事故……"],["林主任委員信得：如果有……"],["何委員欣純：我現在的意思是，從飛航當中的行動電源起火，到高鐵裡面的行動電源起火這一系列事故，你剛剛說你要撈事件、撈數據，這一系列的行動電源起火，你認為運安會要不要主動立案研析，然後有什麼樣的安全指引？"],["林主任委員信得：對，如果它進入……"],["何委員欣純：對，那有沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：如果它進入運輸安全事故調查範圍內的時候，就會去撈出來，這幾個案子就是有系統性的問題。"],["何委員欣純：所以你現在跟我說的是，我跟你講的這一系列行動電源起火跟你沒關係了？"],["林主任委員信得：像高鐵這個是屬於鐵路行車規則裡面他自己要去處理的。"],["何委員欣純：飛航裡面呢？航空當中行動電源的放置問題呢？"],["林主任委員信得：這個也是，如果涉及有延燒，造成設備損害，造成航空器有危害的時候……"],["何委員欣純：我剛剛給你看那麼多照片不就是了嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對，但是這還有一個界線。"],["何委員欣純：什麼界線？"],["林主任委員信得：就是屬於我們的，我們就調查，有通報，我們就調查……"],["何委員欣純：意思是說運安會獨立機關是比較高規格的，這個只是一般生活中的小事情，所以跟你運安會沒有關係嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：不是，如果在客艙裡面冒煙，可是它沒有燃燒，他已經處理完……"],["何委員欣純：主委，拜託你好不好？你這樣子回答讓人家沒辦法接受！國人的安全，難道會因為只有冒煙、沒有失火，大家就……"],["林主任委員信得：不是，我是指是不是我們立案調查的範圍，我是指這個，不是說我們不關心。"],["何委員欣純：我剛剛跟你講，你的職掌裡面不是只有立案調查，你還有事故趨勢分析、安全改善建議，你還可以有安全專案研究！"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。這個也是我們關注的範圍，沒有錯。"],["何委員欣純：我剛剛就提醒你，行動電源會起火、會自燃已經不是只有飛機上的問題而已，連在高鐵也可能出現這個問題，還有剛剛很多委員都在關心電動車的電池問題，表示我們陸、海、空裡面所有電動運具裡面的電池問題、行動電源的問題，會不會造成交通運具在運輸過程的危險？這樣子能不能夠成立一個專案研究，告訴大家……"],["林主任委員信得：可以，這個可以……"],["何委員欣純：告訴國人，還有告訴所有交通運具的所屬單位跟他們的從業人員，我們碰到這些事情的時候該怎麼因應、該怎麼處理、該怎麼面對？國人安全是第一要緊的事。主委，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們會……"],["何委員欣純：對嘛！那你剛剛一開始的回答是什麼意思？"],["林主任委員信得：不是，我剛剛的意思是說它是不是屬於立案範圍裡面，但這個案子確實……"],["何委員欣純：你的職掌又不是只有立案範圍才要做調查而已，我們不能防範於未然嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：可以。"],["何委員欣純：可以嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["何委員欣純：那我就告訴你，都已經發生一系列的事情了，行動電源、電動車的電池問題，運安會可不可以主動立案研究分析，給予安全指引？這個有那麼難嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：不會，我們會立一個案子做趨勢分析。"],["何委員欣純：對啊！主委，你也要有擔當些。"],["林主任委員信得：OK。"],["何委員欣純：OK嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["何委員欣純：好，最快是多久的時間要成立？"],["林主任委員信得：我們一個月內把它整理出來，然後看看我們未來的趨勢、後續怎麼計畫去做，好不好？"],["何委員欣純：好，一個月內。"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","特別再提醒，許智傑委員質詢完畢以後，休息10分鐘。","現在請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160307","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160307","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4dae7f22f6362acc3cf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b49621747a0e7dfbc9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:07:49 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請主席邀請林主委林主委"},{"start":10.47,"end":28.06,"text":"各位早安本席在這邊也是要來關心這個電動車目前就是有關這個電動車的一個事故調查的部分那我們根據公路局的一個統計數字我們可以看到很明顯的從2018年一直到2024年這個電動車的一個登記數真的是非常明顯的一個攀升一直到去年底2024年"},{"start":37.125,"end":38.587,"text":"這個純電車的一個統計數字已經有達到96397這個量的這個數字那當然包含就是油電混合的話就是將近11萬的這樣子的一個登記數"},{"start":52.884,"end":78.271,"text":"所以也表示出就是說這個電動車的一個市場這個也蠻熱絡的也被接受度也蠻高的那當然就是說從這個電動車的一個使用的一個普遍性之後這個意外的事故當然就是會有看到一些案例陸續的一個發生那當然我們也很明顯的看到就是也剛剛我們那個盧委員也剛剛提到的這個"},{"start":79.091,"end":101.519,"text":"之前的一個明星他的這個特斯拉事故著火起火之後就是引起了大家的一個注目從這一起的一個事故才引起大家在委員會有關心就是我們運安會對於這樣子的一個特斯拉的車輛這個意外事故的時候我們的調查"},{"start":103.044,"end":119.608,"text":"是不是有那個量能那當時當然這個都還沒有那個當時運安會是回覆說針對這個部分還沒有可能還沒有去這個啟動那在大家關心之後我想這幾年就是應該一兩年的時間運安會應該有陸續針對這樣子的一個個案應該有進行去關心"},{"start":126.61,"end":153.779,"text":"那目前就是說這樣子的案例比較少那應該比較明顯的就是最近比較重大的一個事故就是湖尾那個國道一號南下這個湖尾段還有我們今年一月份在陽明這個休息站的這兩起事故是引起社會大眾非常大的一個震驚跟注目那這兩起我們運安會是不是都已經有這個列案調查了"},{"start":155.413,"end":180.314,"text":"市主委現在重大運輸事務方委修正完之後只要是電動車的我們就不會用以前那種出來看個案現在都會調查全部會列入調查對 那麼那個電動車事實上最近幾個案子的歸納出來大部分電池安全是一個很重要的問題電池安全還有駕駛操作的程序之外也是我們調查的重點對"},{"start":182.437,"end":202.23,"text":"駕駛的操作目前我們有列案調查的就是去年6月這一件跟今年1月這一件總共兩件那去年6月這一件已經報告已經公布了嗎去年6月的報告還沒公布"},{"start":203.967,"end":220.243,"text":"對,幾月會公佈?今年七月要公佈?還是年底?今年年底今年年底要公佈?是目前還沒有公佈?還沒有那我看到有一份資料怎麼你們在今年二月就已經公佈了?"},{"start":220.816,"end":234.907,"text":"那是事實資料報告事實資料的報告事實資料報告就是說你就現況的蒐集的資料做報告那報告完之後要做進入分析階段分析階段就經過還有一個專業小組審查會議檢視會滿繁雜的然後到最後才進入這個審查"},{"start":239.651,"end":264.882,"text":"是 好 那就是確定的一個事故的一個調查要到年底才會公布那目前因為我們也看到就是說主委也有表示就是說有關這個電動車的一個事故的調查我們會修訂就是運輸事故的調查法 是不是 是會修訂相關的一個法令 那目前這個法令的進度是如何"},{"start":265.799,"end":279.386,"text":"目前還在修法中啦 還沒有被修行但是沒有妨礙到我們因為因為坐在事實範圍我們已經訂定了所以沒有妨礙到我們對金融商的調查所以這個法令跟我們的這個目前在進行中的兩個案子是不會"},{"start":280.185,"end":293.814,"text":"我們在進行當中不會因為有一些資料的取得沒有辦法取得需要透過修法去取得應該還不至於我們也希望電動車我想也是未來可能這個"},{"start":299.558,"end":316.949,"text":"成長的速度應該也是會持續的一個成長因為目前就是因應整個國際這種就是減冷減碳這樣的一個趨勢我想這種測量數還是會增加所以有關在這類型的事故的調查我們也希望就是運營會這邊能夠有比較"},{"start":320.154,"end":342.145,"text":"多的一個就是技術跟量能來就是進行這一類的一個調查那另外我再請教就是說有關這一類因為我們這樣子的一個案例在國內也算是比較就是少所以我們不曉得說這一方面的案例我們會去國外做一個經驗的一個汲取跟交流嗎"},{"start":344.58,"end":364.989,"text":"我們對這個預算算是我們也蠻傷腦筋的因為我們國外要去授訓的量能就會減少我們也開始在檢討他的優先先後管理的次序人員的訓練確實也會縮短那尤其是國外你如果去開會我們因為我們運燙會"},{"start":367.95,"end":386.227,"text":"在國際間的這個指揮運輸安全調查這個community裡面我們算是能見度還蠻高的如果我們不能去的話那我們在國外相關重要的年度會議裡面都會對一些法規既定的一個修改我們可能就沒有辦法在第一時間參與這個是蠻遺憾的"},{"start":388.317,"end":408.428,"text":"是因為剛剛我們就是主委在做這個報告又報告的時候這是我看您的簡報就是你們剛剛的簡報那你有提到就是說預期的施政績效你也是分三個面向是三大區塊那其中一個深化國際合作提升我國運輸安全能見度這個是"},{"start":410.729,"end":437.206,"text":"很大的一個比重嘛對不對對那這樣子的話如果說我們在114年度的一個預算被刪掉了六成剩下的這樣子的一個預算數你要如何去達到你預期的一個績效可能會打折扣打折扣對我想這樣子對我們整個就是預安會的一個運作可能會有很大的一個阻礙吧"},{"start":438.072,"end":465.597,"text":"那會變成有時候我們要實體去參加會議我們沒有辦法出國的話就會跟對方講我們改成視訊或者是用什麼方式縮短時程或者是改變計畫的這個行程等等也蠻困擾的是就是說對於這種經驗的交流當然就是說可以透過視訊這樣的一個變通的方式那我們也看到就是說在應該是"},{"start":468.53,"end":493.91,"text":"今年就是我們慾安會有受邀就是參與那個日本日航的就是羽田機場的這個非安事故的一個調查我們有受邀去做這樣子的一個參與跨國性的一個事故調查如果說像這樣子的話我們這種出國旅費被刪減的話恐怕這樣子的一個協助我們可能就使不上力了"},{"start":494.15,"end":522.846,"text":"就會排擠我們的預算會排擠會排擠就比較可惜是所以這樣子的話對我們的運安會就是說整個運作真的是一個非常大的會有影響會有影響所以這個預算我覺得說運安會是一個非常專業的一個單位所以這個預算其實也跟相較其他的單位來看也不是非常龐大可是確實每一筆都是非常一個重要所以"},{"start":524.006,"end":551.528,"text":"對於這樣子的一個刪減數我們也是覺得非常的一個遺憾是 我們單位的預算不多所以如果刪的那個比例雖然跟外單位比起來好像錢不多事實上比例還蠻高的比例高 可是每一項經費都是都很珍貴 每一項經費都很珍貴對你們來說就有非常那個重要謝謝委員的關心那刪了也跟動又不一樣根本毫無 毫無希望了嘛刪減就是刪減掉了啦"},{"start":553.45,"end":557.234,"text":"謝謝吳園,謝謝好,那就,你們就是要自己要加油謝謝吳園,謝謝好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時7分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：主委早安。"],["林主任委員信得：早。"],["陳委員素月：本席在這邊也是要關心目前電動車的事故調查，根據公路局的統計數字，我們可以看到很明顯的，從2018年一直到2024年，電動車的登記數真的非常明顯的攀升，一直到去年底2024年，純電車的登記數已經達到9萬6,397輛，當然包含油電混合車的話，登記數就將近11萬，這也表示出電動車的市場也滿熱絡的，接受度也滿高的。電動車的使用日漸普遍之後，當然就會看到一些意外事故案例陸續發生，當然我們也看到，剛剛魯委員也提到的案例，之前有一個明星，他的特斯拉發生事故起火之後引起大家注目，從這一起事故才引起大家在委員會關心，我們運安會對於這一類特斯拉車輛意外事故的調查是否有量能，當時運安會的回復是，針對這個部分可能還沒有啟動。在大家關心之後，我想這幾年，應該這一、兩年的時間，運安會應該有陸續關心這樣的個案嘛。目前這樣的案例比較少，應該比較明顯的、最近比較重大的事故就是國道1號南下虎尾段，還有今年1月份在楊梅休息站的這兩起事故，引起社會大眾非常大的震驚與矚目，這兩起我們運安會是不是都已經有立案調查了？主委。"],["林主任委員信得：現在重大運輸事故之範圍修正完之後，只要是電動車，我們不會用以前那種看個案的方式，現在都會調查……"],["陳委員素月：全部會列入調查？"],["林主任委員信得：對。關於電動車，事實上最近幾個案子歸納出來，大部分電池安全是一個很重要的問題。"],["陳委員素月：電池安全。"],["林主任委員信得：對，電池安全，還有駕駛操作程序這方面也是我們調查的重點。"],["陳委員素月：駕駛的操作。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["陳委員素月：目前我們有立案調查的就是去年6月這一件跟今年1月這一件，總共2件？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["陳委員素月：去年6月這一件的報告已經公布了？"],["林主任委員信得：去年6月的報告還沒公布，今年年底要公布。"],["陳委員素月：今年年底要公布？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：目前還沒有公布？"],["林主任委員信得：還沒有。"],["陳委員素月：我怎麼有看到一份資料是你們在今年2月就已經公布了。"],["林主任委員信得：那是事實資料報告。"],["陳委員素月：事實資料報告。"],["林主任委員信得：對，事實資料報告是就現況蒐集的資料做報告，報告完之後要進入分析階段，分析階段還有一個專業小組審查會議，滿繁雜的，到最後才進入審查。"],["陳委員素月：好，就是確定的事故調查要到年底才會公布？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：主委也有表示有關電動車事故的調查，我們會修訂運輸事故調查法，是不是？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：會修訂相關的法令，那目前這個法令的進度如何？"],["林主任委員信得：目前還在修法中，但是因為重大運輸事故之範圍我們已經訂定了，所以沒有妨礙到我們對電動車的調查。"],["陳委員素月：所以這個法令跟目前在進行中的兩個案子不會……"],["林主任委員信得：不會有扞格之處……"],["陳委員素月：不會嘛，我們在進行當中，不會因為有一些資料沒有辦法取得，需要透過修法去取得？"],["林主任委員信得：應該還不至於。"],["陳委員素月：還不至於。"],["林主任委員信得：不至於、不至於，OK的。"],["陳委員素月：我想電動車未來成長的速度應該也是會持續成長，因應目前整個國際上節能減碳這樣的趨勢，我想這種車輛數還是會增加，所以有關這一類型的事故調查，我們也希望運安會能夠有比較多的技術跟量能進行這一類的調查。","另外，我再請教，有關這一類，這樣的案例在國內也算是比較少，不曉得對於這方面的案例，我們會去國外做經驗的汲取跟交流嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對於這個預算被刪除，我們也滿傷腦筋的，因為我們去國外受訓的量能就會減少，我們也開始在減少，依輕重緩急的次序，人員的訓練確實也會縮短。尤其是國外，你如果去開會，因為運安會在國際間運輸安全調查這個community裡面算是能見度還滿高的，如果我們不能去的話，在國外相關重要的年度會議裡面，都會對一些法規修改，我們可能就沒有辦法在第一時間參與，這也是滿遺憾的。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛主委在做業務報告的時候，我有看您的簡報，你們剛剛的簡報有提到預期的施政績效有分三個面向、三大區塊，其中一個是深化國際合作，提升我國運輸安全能見度。這個是很大的比重，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["陳委員素月：如果我們114年度的預算被刪掉6成，剩下這樣的預算數，你要如何去達到你預期的績效？"],["林主任委員信得：可能會打折扣啦！"],["陳委員素月：打折扣？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["陳委員素月：我想這樣對整個運安會的運作可能會有很大的阻礙。"],["林主任委員信得：會變成有時候我們要去參加實體會議，若我們沒有辦法出國的話，就會跟對方講我們要改成視訊，或者是用什麼方式，或是縮短時程，或者是改變計畫的行程等等，也是滿困擾的。"],["陳委員素月：對於這種經驗的交流，當然可以透過視訊這樣的變通方式。我們也看到，今年我們運安會有受邀參與日航羽田機場的飛安事故調查，我們有受邀參與跨國性的事故調查……"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：如果我們的出國旅費被刪減的話，這樣子的協助我們可能就使不上力了。"],["林主任委員信得：我們的預算會排擠，就會比較可惜。"],["陳委員素月：所以這樣對我們運安會整個運作真的是一個非常大的阻礙。"],["林主任委員信得：會有影響。"],["陳委員素月：關於這個預算，我覺得運安會是一個非常專業的單位，雖然這個預算相較於其他單位也不是非常龐大，卻是每一筆都非常重要，對於這樣的刪減數，我們也是覺得非常遺憾。"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們單位的預算不多，所以如果刪的比例……雖然跟外單位比起來好像刪的錢不多，但事實上，比例還滿高的。"],["陳委員素月：比例高，而且每一項經費都是非常非常重要，對你們來說，非常重要。"],["林主任委員信得：每一項經費都很珍貴，謝謝委員的關心。"],["陳委員素月：刪了跟凍又不一樣，根本毫無希望了，刪減就是刪減掉了。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：那你們就是要自己辛苦一點，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員的關心。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。特別跟大會報告一下，許智傑召委質詢完，我們就休息10分鐘。","現在請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160306","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160306","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4696fc16797b9cc95cf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b498466b1d63248431c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"09:52:12 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又請我們議官會林主委好 林主委"},{"start":9.418,"end":35.774,"text":"好 林副委員好那我接著這個剛剛我們李昆哲委員談到的電動車那電動車事實上確實我想在世界各地都快速成長那在台灣也呈現這個現象我們看過去10年從全台灣那一年只有664輛的電動當然還混合先講清楚那這個部分包括油電車那到了我們今年兩個月前"},{"start":37.635,"end":64.369,"text":"2月份2025年2月份已經到達11萬4千多輛的電動車在台灣我們登記如果以這個幅度來講的話是成長10年成長170倍成長的一個幅度確實是非常非常大請教一下我特別有看到我們在去年前年我記得在林口有一個影星叫林志穎"},{"start":66.561,"end":88.095,"text":"發生電動車什麼樣事故的時候那時候我不知道是不是林主委啦我都不清楚我還沒討論還沒有齁那時候我們就好多人委員跟那個主委啊大家討論討論去啊最後我記得沒錯那時候結論說抱歉這四人的載具齁跟我們運安會基本上的原則是不介入"},{"start":89.178,"end":112.331,"text":"那到了你今年到1月剛剛講發生那個楊梅交流道那個蠻重大的事故起火造成四死四傷的一個慘劇之後就我們看到在2月份當然謝謝你們啦我認為說應安會慢了真的是慢了那到今天2月8號我們也看到你們當然這個來修改了公告修訂了"},{"start":115.102,"end":142.529,"text":"這個運輸事故 重大運輸事故範圍將電動車電動車輛只要具先進的ADAS車輛也納入你們一個調查的範圍讓過去說好像完全不行的現在有點普了 也展開了調查那現在目前你們對於這種電動車的事故調查大概有多少起就剛剛報告的有現在兩件兩件在調查中嗎"},{"start":143.882,"end":143.902,"text":"好"},{"start":145.188,"end":165.698,"text":"那我沒有預告啦因為現在正好關稅大戰那如果台灣要用零關稅去談進口汽車非常可能會是一個被降低的這個的部分那未來在國外有很多相對的便宜的各式車輛都會進來會造成台灣的一個車輛各種的一個情況可能改變我認為電動車它這個趨勢是會更快速的一個成長"},{"start":175.143,"end":203.571,"text":"你剛剛講的我們電動車調查這個進度我也去看了一下去年的6月份跟今年的1月25號陽梅休息站這個的部分都有造成了死傷尤其在陽梅交叉道這個部分全國極度關注因為覺得太悲慘了裡面有非常多的可愛的小朋友那當然我們看了回到去年6月6號這一件你也在調查中然後當然1月25號"},{"start":205.678,"end":232.803,"text":"對你們來說應該發生時間還需要去累積更多的一個證據我就請問一下喔能不能大概說一下你們大概有SOP調查的整個程序大約是要多久你們自己要求自己的我們調查是分成五大階段來是現場受診階段嘛然後這個事實資料報告階段然後至少要分析還有審查等等"},{"start":233.283,"end":252.714,"text":"那這個案子目前是屬於這個事實資料發布之後的階段進入這個分析的階段大概要5個月最主要調查的重點是這樣子那去年6月6號的呢去年6月6號這個來已經發布事實資料報告"},{"start":260.257,"end":288.753,"text":"發布了 今天早上發布了嗎結果昨天才還沒有好啦好啦我覺得人民對於當時我們雲安會成立的期待我覺得莫忘初衷第一個我們覺得這麼多複雜的訊息這樣的一個專業的交通事故我們希望有一個單位能夠在相對有效率的讓人民能夠知道 有知的權利第二個呢能夠"},{"start":290.481,"end":311.063,"text":"提供一個正確的一個訊息第三個是運安會這個專業的單位提供了重要的一個運輸事故訊息給相關單位之後能夠造成一個良性的循環他能夠改善到最後能夠避險的這個的部分但我是覺得在很多的效率上"},{"start":312.444,"end":337.804,"text":"如果你是人力不夠人力根本不夠有些的部分不成比例譬如說水路啊什麼大家人力就不對稱那這個部分我是覺得你身為這個主管你必須要去自己去主張啊你看看啊因為醫護安慰的功能很重要嘛高工局他跟大家講他的調查的結果他的說法113年6月6號那個事情是變換車道不當"},{"start":339.537,"end":367.258,"text":"那是定案了嗎是決定了嗎然後1月25號因為很多記者媒體訪問這種公開的聲明也算是一種他的高工局這件事情認定的調查的一個說明他認為是車輛機械操作不當我說天啊你知道嗎這個事情不管是人為那是我自己操作不當球場可能不見得有利但如果是機械"},{"start":368.462,"end":388.124,"text":"或者SITEN自駕ADAS系統的一個故障或者相關的車輛的因素那他可能車商可以求償最後一個不好意思是你道路設計有問題啊因為陽梅這個部分就很多人在說嘛那就是你高空局或者你的平面道路你的主管單位有問題"},{"start":389.085,"end":409.948,"text":"大家在等這個報告其實我是覺得不光是一個結果第一個促成這個機構他到底是不是交通道路設計不當或者到底車輛有問題大家都在等你這個報告還是你認同現在高滬宇說的這個報告就是結果嗎一個是變換車道不當一個是車輛急著操作不當這是不是結果"},{"start":412.008,"end":434.535,"text":"高工局的改善措施或者是他的事務調查寫的這個措施只是他初步的看法他真正造勢的原因還是我剛剛報告我們還是從五階段裡面一個一個去抽絲剝繭嘛不一樣的他的報告有點等同我們的事實資料報告一樣但是我們還要進入分析還要進入去審查等等不太一樣啊"},{"start":435.695,"end":459.493,"text":"所以問題現在就有很多人氣啊甚至車禍的傷者 當事人啊甚至有一些比較關心的甚至有一些專家學者還在持續對這件事情完全不同的跟高官局不同的一個說法他在等待你嘛所以一個大家可信的公平正義的一個裁判所以我們也希望在速度稍微能夠快一點 好吧這兩個在"},{"start":461.054,"end":476.921,"text":"調查中那我們再說一下你調查已經結束了這個ADAS就是這種輔助或者所謂的那種自駕的一個輔助的一個系統這就不只電動車啦一般的車輛現在先進的車輛都有搭載這樣的一個功能那"},{"start":478.16,"end":499.552,"text":"在高速公路上面我們的工程緩撞車被追撞的事件還是真的是蠻多的蠻多的我們就以一個112年啊因為太近了你說你沒調查好嘛112年11月底發生在我們國道1號中部的路段工程緩撞車"},{"start":501.317,"end":518.425,"text":"遭這個小客車啊這個撞擊因為後面調查那個小客車有開啟ADAS系統好了你們經過了一年啊在113年去年的11月29號你們可能規定是一年啊也發布了"},{"start":519.065,"end":542.844,"text":"你們確實的一個調查運輸這個事故的調查報告就表示你們完成你們負責任完成了那這種報告呢也後面送交了交通部他有必須建議他改善的事項按照的歐洲委員會制定的相關的基準來做什麼樣的改善讓更完善那給高工局呢也跟他講說因為這發生在內側"},{"start":544.705,"end":554.428,"text":"高速公路內側的車道這邊的車道是超車車道你要特別的怎麼樣注意你有說強化移動性內側車道施工什麼管制布設方式我剛講最後期待"},{"start":561.465,"end":574.358,"text":"你們專業的訊息在座費這麼多腦筋啊專家學者包括學界甚至學校大家提供一些意見你提出來了給交通部跟高工局那現在處理情況"},{"start":578.186,"end":600.606,"text":"還是狀態有改變 又是今天早上又改變了 主委來說一下像這個不是已讀不回啦 因為依照依照法律的規定 它有90天要恢復嘛那90天法律完之後 我們還要報行政院因為行政院還有辦廣考一次 所以一般這個都是有一定的程序然後另外就是"},{"start":601.787,"end":614.368,"text":"他剛起聽我同學講他有提意見但是那個意見不對又又又又他又重提啊他們有一點有一點有一點有一點呃怎麼講你還在掙扎是掙扎哈哈"},{"start":616.952,"end":635.993,"text":"所以我們把他退回他從體啦是這樣子啦不是以德為我是覺得齁因為我跟你講民眾的一個期待不能這樣在政府這樣弄來弄去對民眾沒有意義民眾在罵的時候不好意思他絕對不光是罵政府某一個單位哪一個局哪一個組不可能罵"},{"start":637.354,"end":650.103,"text":"你們都不知道在搞什麼嘛你們按照你們的運輸事故調查法第27條第一項誠如你說的嘛你調查報告完成之後給相關機關90天之內就是我先講喔現在是139天"},{"start":654.746,"end":680.804,"text":"現在是139天遠遠超過了一個多月他們應該提出什麼呢他們應該這些單位要向行政院提出處理報告我是完全念條文啦處理報告那處理報告基本的精神就是針對你們提供專業意見可行的趕快做執行計畫吧就像我們今年會編預算要執行計畫出來那如果不可行的有障礙的或者再跟你們回報因為這個必須複製你們所以在90天"},{"start":684.986,"end":702.335,"text":"顯然是沒有任何的一個狀況如果複資你們的部分你們還在等候回覆或者處理中嗎那你對於這種相關單位沒有辦法在法令的這個效能中來配合或達成改善你會不會自己也有點無奈那種感覺你可不可以說明一下"},{"start":703.395,"end":731.708,"text":"我們倒不是無奈啦因為我希望他提的計畫能夠更周圍一點如果他提的這個不吞不養不是不是說他提的比較一種例行公事的話我們覺得這個跟跟我們所當時的初衷是是沒有達到的所以我們就退回叫他重提但是我們後面還有一個行政院管考的半年的管考的建議還是會繼續追蹤下去的啊現在交通部回了嗎回復了嗎高工局回了嗎回了嘛"},{"start":732.355,"end":740.324,"text":"高 交通部回覆了沒有都回覆了嘛是吧都回覆了吧 對那你這邊為什麼說要等候回覆高空局的部分他們重提嘛 來"},{"start":741.96,"end":771.06,"text":"你們這個狀態是什麼意思跟委員報告在高工局的部分他們已經有提出處理報告跟分向指引計畫了那目前的狀況是我們已經發函請他們重提第二次那他們的這個計畫內容那我們覺得還有一些改善的地方所以現在是在請他們重提第二次的過程那交通部呢那交通部的已經來了所以我們今天是在等高工局的今天早上嗎 今天早上來啦我們會等高工局你們這個報告是哪個單位寫的是這樣嗎 你這樣描述的過程是這樣嗎"},{"start":772.5,"end":800.318,"text":"你知道嗎這個東西就簡單講一件事情我們講規規矩矩清清楚楚的這個球在誰手上 燙手上丟給誰了那總是你們自己要知道嘛現在你們這個訊息就是抱歉你們還沒給我訊息你們這個報告就是這樣如果你們覺得你像你剛剛講的完全狀態不應該在這裡我是跟主委建議一下你們譬如說已回復正在處理中嘛他就明明跟你回復啦對不對初步的回復都可以嘛"},{"start":801.263,"end":825.993,"text":"那最後跟主委建議一下我們希望你們的這個很多的一個專業的意見最後變成他的一個改善的計畫能夠整體在整個面上面能夠在掀起預防這個問題因為我們再看一下國道緩撞車被撞的事件AIDAS這不光是電車任何車輛有AIDAS系統的我們特別在看從"},{"start":828.351,"end":848.629,"text":"兩年多前到112年11月那時候本來有216件結果我們看到了有裝有ADAS的其中有開啟的有73件但是還是裝上去了那我們研究當時就有很多的報告希望怎麼改善結果我們再看一年半之後快兩年之後統計機到114年3月總共累積了"},{"start":852.492,"end":881.282,"text":"持續增加而且有開啟的ADAS的幅度在從30%上到36%這是我剛剛在跟你提不管說你們我相信你們的專業啦你們給高工局的建議或是說給交通部的建議我希望能夠某一些能夠盡快落實從這個整個面向上面從實體的數據上面真的能夠逐步向好的一方發展我們"},{"start":882.282,"end":887.198,"text":"持續努力好不好對這也是我們希望他能做到的謝謝我也知道好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（9時52分）謝謝主席，請運安會林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：林主委，我接著剛剛李昆澤委員談到的電動車，事實上，電動車確實在世界各地都快速成長，在臺灣也呈現這樣的現象。我們看過去十年，那一年全臺灣只有664輛的電動車，當然還含混合的，先講清楚，這個部分也包括油電車；到了今年，兩個月前的2月份，2025年2月已經到達十一萬四千多輛的電動車在臺灣登記。如果以這個幅度來講的話，十年成長了170倍，成長的幅度確實是非常非常大。我想請教一下，我有特別看到，大前年我記得有一個影星叫林志穎在林口發生電動車事故，那時候我不知道是不是林主委……"],["林主任委員信得：我還沒有到任。"],["魯委員明哲：那時候有好多委員跟主委討論來、討論去，我記得沒錯的話，最後的結論是說：抱歉，這是私人的載具，運安會基本的原則是不介入。到了今年1月，剛剛講到楊梅交流道發生蠻重大的事故，因起火造成4死4傷的慘劇。之後我們看到在2月份，當然也要謝謝你們，但我認為運安會慢了，真的是慢了，到了今年的2月18號，我們看到你們公告修訂了重大運輸事故之範圍，將電動車輛、具先進ADAS的車輛也納入調查的範圍，讓過去好像完全不行的，現在有點譜了，也展開了調查。目前你們對於這種電動車的事故調查大概有多少起？"],["林主任委員信得：就如我剛剛報告的，現在有兩件在調查中。"],["魯委員明哲：我們也預告，現在正好關稅大戰，如果臺灣要用零關稅去談，進口汽車非常可能會是一個被降低的部分，未來國外有很多相對便宜的各式車輛都會進來，會造成臺灣車輛的各種情況可能改變，我認為電動車的趨勢會更快速地成長。你剛剛講到電動車的調查進度，我也去看了一下，去年6月跟今年1月25號的楊梅休息站事故都有造成死傷，尤其在楊梅交流道的部分，全國極度關注，都覺得太悲慘了，因為裡面有非常多可愛的小朋友。我們看到去年6月6號這一件你們在調查中，而1月25號的事故，對你們來說，發生時間應該比較近，還需要去累積更多的證據。我就請問，能不能大概說一下，你們調查SOP的整個程序大約要多久？你們自己要求自己的部分。"],["林主任委員信得：我們的調查是分成5大階段，如現場蒐證、事實資料報告、分析及審查等等，這個案子目前是屬於事實資料發布之後的分析階段，大概要5個月，審查階段要5個月，調查最主要的重點是這樣子的，目前……"],["魯委員明哲：去年6月6號的呢？"],["林主任委員信得：去年6月6號的部分，已經發布事實資料報告。"],["魯委員明哲：今天早上發布了嘛？我昨天查還沒有。人民對於當時運安會成立的期待，我覺得莫忘初衷啦！第一個，我們覺得有這麼多複雜的訊息，而這樣的一個交通事故，我們希望有專業的單位能夠相對有效率地讓人民能夠知道，人民有知的權利；第二個，能夠提供一個正確的訊息；第三個，運安會是專業的單位，在提供重要的運輸事故訊息給相關單位之後，能夠造成一個良性的循環，不僅能去改善，最後還能達到避險。但我覺得在很多的效率上，如果你們人力不夠，有些部分不成比例，譬如水路等等，大家的人力就不對稱，針對這個部分，我覺得你身為主管，你必須要自己去主張。","你看看，運安會的功能很重要，高公局跟大家講他們的調查結果，據他們的說法，113年6月6號的事故是變換車道不當，但是定案了嗎？是決定了嗎？然後1月25號的，有很多記者媒體訪問，這種公開的聲明也算是一種高公局對這件事情認定的調查說明，他們認為是車輛機械操作不當。我的天啊，你知道嗎？這件事情若是人為，那是他自己操作不當，求償可能不見得有利，但如果是機械或是自駕ADAS系統故障，或者相關的車輛因素，那他可能可以向車商求償。最後一個，可能是道路設計有問題，因為楊梅這個部分就有很多人在說，那就是高公局或者平面道路的主管單位有問題。大家在等這個報告，其實我覺得不光是一個結果，第一個，促成這個的原因，到底是不是交通道路設計不當，或者是車輛有問題，大家都在等你們這個報告，還是你認同現在高公局說的這個報告就是結果嗎？一個是變換車道不當，一個是車輛機械操作不當，這是不是結果？"],["林主任委員信得：高公局的事故調查寫的只是他們初步的看法，而真正肇事的原因，還是如我剛剛所報告的，我們還是要從5階段裡面去一個一個抽絲剝繭，是不一樣的，他們的報告等同我們的事實資料報告，但是我們還要進入分析、還要進入審查等等，不太一樣啊！"],["魯委員明哲：所以現在很多人很氣啊！像車禍的傷者、當事人，甚至有一些比較關心的，或甚至有些專家學者，還持續對這件事情跟高公局有不同的說法，大家在等待你們嘛！要一個大家可信的公平正義裁判，所以我們希望速度稍微能夠快一點。","好吧！這兩個在調查中，那我們再說一下你們調查已經結束的。ADAS就是所謂自駕的輔助系統，這就不只電動車了，現在一般先進的車輛都有搭載這個功能。在高速公路上面，我們的工程緩撞車被追撞的事件還真的蠻多的，我們就以112年為例，因為時間太近的，你說你還沒調查好。112年11月底發生在國道一號中部路段，工程緩撞車遭小客車撞擊，後面調查發現小客車有開啟ADAS系統，你們經過了一年，在113年（去年）的11月29號，你們可能規定是一年，你們也確實發布了一個運輸事故的調查報告，這表示你們負責任的完成調查了。","這個報告後面也送交了交通部，其中有建議它必須改善的事項，按照歐洲委員會制定的相關基準來做什麼樣的改善，讓它更完善；也跟高公局說，因為這個發生在高速公路內側的車道，這個車道是超車車道，你要特別怎麼樣注意，你有說強化移動性，內側車道施工什麼管制布設等等，然後呢？我剛剛講最後期待你們專業的訊息，在座的專家學者費了這麼多腦筋，包括學界，甚至於學校，大家提供了一些意見，你提出來給交通部跟高公局，那現在的處理情況呢？還是狀態又改變，又是今天早上，又改變了？主委，你說一下。"],["林主任委員信得：像這個不是已讀不回，因為依照法定的規定，它有90天要回復，90天回復完之後，我們還要報行政院，行政院還有半年管考一次，所以一般這個都是有一定的程序。另外，聽我同仁講高公局有提意見，但是那個意見不對，它又重提，他們有一點有一點怎麼講……"],["魯委員明哲：還在掙扎，是不是？還在掙扎？"],["林主任委員信得：是我們把它退回，它重提，是這樣子，不是已讀不回。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有，我是覺得面對民眾的期待不能這樣，在政府之間這樣弄來弄去，對民眾沒有意義，民眾在罵的時候，不好意思，他絕對不光是罵政府某一個單位、哪一個局、哪一個組，不可能嘛！等於是不知道在搞什麼嘛！你們按照運輸事故調查法第二十七條第一項，誠如你說的，你調查報告完成之後給相關機關，90天之內，我先講，現在是139天，遠遠超過了一個多月，他們應該提出什麼呢？這些單位應該要向行政院提出處理報告。","我是完全念條文，要提出處理報告。處理報告基本的精神就是，針對你們提供的專業意見，可行的趕快做執行計畫，就像我今年會編預算，要有執行計畫出來；如果不可行的、有障礙的，儘快跟你們回報，因為這個必須副知你們，所以在90天顯然是沒有任何的一個狀況，如果副知你們的部分，你們還在等候回復或者處理中嗎？你對於這種相關單位沒有辦法配合法令發揮效能或者達成改善，你會不會自己也有點無奈的那種感覺？你可不可以說明一下？"],["林主任委員信得：我們倒不是無奈，我希望它提的計畫能夠更周延一點，如果它提了個不痛不癢的內容，比如它提的比較是屬於一種例行公事的話，我們覺得我們當時的初衷是沒有達到的，所以我們就退回叫它重提，但是我們後面還有行政院每半年的管考建議，還是會繼續追蹤下去的。"],["魯委員明哲：現在交通部回了嗎？回復了嗎？都回復了嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["魯委員明哲：那你這邊為什麼說等候回復？"],["林主任委員信得：高公局的部分，他們重提嘛。"],["魯委員明哲：你們這個狀態是什麼意思？"],["鄭組長永安：跟委員報告，在高公局的部分，他們已經有提出處理報告跟分項執行計畫了，目前的狀況是，我們已經發函請他們重提第二次，因為他們的計畫內容，我們覺得還有一些要改善的地方，所以現在是在請他們重提第二次的過程。"],["魯委員明哲：那交通部呢？"],["鄭組長永安：交通部的已經來了，所以我們目前是在等高公局的……"],["魯委員明哲：今天早上嘛？今天早上來了。"],["鄭組長永安：我們會等高公局的來，一起送……"],["魯委員明哲：你們這個報告是哪個單位寫的？是這樣嗎？你描述的過程是這樣嗎？你知道嗎？這個東西就簡單講，一件事情我們講規規矩矩、清清楚楚的，這個球在誰手上，燙手山芋丟給誰了？總是你們自己要知道嘛！現在你們這個訊息就是說「不好意思，你們還沒給我訊息。」你們這個報告就是這樣。如果你們覺得，像你剛剛講的，狀態完全不應該在這裡。我是跟主委建議一下，比如說已回復，正在處理中，它明明跟你回復啦，對不對？初步的回復都可以嘛。","最後跟主委建議一下，我們希望你們很多專業意見最後變成一個改善的計畫，能夠在整體的層面上達到先期預防的效果。我們再看一下國道緩撞車被撞的事件，ADAS這個不光是電動車，任何車輛有ADAS系統，我們特別再看，從兩年多前110年12月到112年11月，那時候總數本來有216件，結果我們看到了，有裝ADAS的，其中有開啟的有73件，但是還是撞上去了。你當時就有很多的報告，希望怎麼改善，結果我們再看一年半快兩年之後，統計到114年3月累積件數持續增加，而且有開啟ADAS的幅度再從34%漲到36%。這是我剛剛在跟你提，我相信你們的專業，你們給高公局的建議或是給交通部的建議，我希望某一些能夠儘快落實，從整個面向上，從實體的數據上面，真的能夠逐步向好的地方發展。我們持續努力，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：對，這也是我們希望他們做到的，謝謝委員指導。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。","在這裡我特別要提醒林主委跟所有列席的官員，在答詢當中資料要精準，不要委員提出問題，明明是有來文跟補充，要把它講清楚，這樣不會產生官員跟立委質詢當中的誤差、矛盾，否則的話就失掉我們今天業務報告跟質詢的功能，好不好？","接下來，我們請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7"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應安會林主委"},{"start":7.709,"end":36.01,"text":"委員好 運安會是在2019年成立也即將要進入第六年了當初我們在推動運安會的一個成立從非安會提升為運安會最主要是希望能夠提升事故調查的量能也能夠提出改善的建議最重要是監督改善的一個落實"},{"start":37.071,"end":60.215,"text":"那在相關的這樣的一個事故的發生調查的過程當然也累積了非常多的資料那這些資料不管是事故發生的資料或者是改善的相關的建議它都是日後我們改善交通安全的一個最重要的基礎資料這樣的一個基礎資料我們還是發現它有幾個問題第一個它難以查詢"},{"start":67.059,"end":86.09,"text":"第二他是沒有進行了風險的一個因素的一個統整另外就是對於進一步資料的分析這個部分沒有落實來主委簡單說明一下我們應安會的這樣的一個基礎資料目前是不是有這樣的一個問題"},{"start":88.127,"end":106.656,"text":"謝謝委員的指導 事實上我們才112年10月份開始就對整個事務調查常用統計圖表我們已經有增加這個功能那麼目前 目前藝術安全改善建議的這個頁面我們電腦的頁面可以選定相關條件 關鍵字就可以去查"},{"start":107.136,"end":126.013,"text":"那我現在正在研議委員剛剛提到的動態統計儀錶板我們今年年底就要進製完成好這個目前的進度是如何這個建制這個統計的儀錶板這個在過去我們已經提出很多次的要求啊來趕快來說明啊什麼時候進入的那委員你好"},{"start":128.803,"end":155.741,"text":"那我們大概規劃分兩年來建置那第一年像今年我們會把整個感染建議的統計數字的那個儀表板建好那明年的話就會真的委員所提的這些安全風險包括安全議題的部分也把它納入這個網站上面幫助對當然這個儀表板要納入風險的樣態分析跟政策建議的這個追蹤這個是這個儀表板最重要的功能目前你們的規劃是如何"},{"start":156.488,"end":178.244,"text":"對我們就是其實我們會今年已經有做先期的作業像我們在委員要求我們每年頒布的這個感染建議的評估報告我們已經把這個風險分析的安全議題納入了那這個是前期的作業那因為這個前期作業完之後那才會把它納到這個網頁上呈現那這兩年我們預計明年應該可以是完成好"},{"start":178.584,"end":199.28,"text":"那接下來我們運安會一個重要的工作除了這個儀表板的建置我想數據跟資訊的公開是下一步的關鍵那交通安全不只是運安會的一個重要的職責以及交通部重要的工作當然有很多的學者或者是民間我認為這個數據跟資訊應該要公開就是說我們這個數據儀表板"},{"start":205.144,"end":229.174,"text":"應該要作為開放式的一個交通安全的一個資料庫那我們針對各類事故的樣態及風險分析還有系統性的風險樣態的這個分析我們要開放這個API或是資料的查詢平台讓民間跟學術研究可以使用來 主委說明一下應該是包括在裡面"},{"start":230.174,"end":257.402,"text":"開放API這個讓民間學術能夠進一階這個是應該在裡面的這個是我們要努力推動的工作當然我們對於相關的這些基本的一個基礎的統計還有分析的系統最主要就是要統計要分析當然最重要就是改善那我們這個儀表板的建設希望能夠依照我們的一個要求要去落實"},{"start":258.402,"end":271.497,"text":"另外我要跟主委來討論一下就是有關於我們的年度運輸安全改善的建議評估報告他有提出相關的改善建議的這個結案率"},{"start":273.379,"end":296.905,"text":"那我們看到飛航事故前年的改善的建議結案率98.6那今年提升到99.5那公路事故83.5前年那今年已經提升到87那鐵道的事故有83.3前年結案率那今年也提升到89.6"},{"start":298.945,"end":316.338,"text":"那水路事故呢 水路事故73.4啊 雖然略有提升但是還是有兩層啊 這個未結案 那這個部分啊來主委說明一下 為什麼還是水路事故這個部分還是有兩層沒有結案呢"},{"start":318.372,"end":333.299,"text":"那個水路組因為他有時候他是有季節性也不能講季節性有時候在某一段時間他案子特別多的時候就感覺上他會擠在一起那人力是固定的這個理由不夠充實來水路組來說明嘛為什麼還要兩次"},{"start":335.68,"end":358.789,"text":"他的水路的事故主要是什麼?然後未結案的這個結案率為什麼會還有兩成的差距?有關於這部分最主要是之前發生有很多案子都是涉以這個飲水作為的修訂尤其最主要是飲水法還有這個就是VTS有關於這個川某標示條例"},{"start":359.309,"end":373.085,"text":"那這樣的一個航路標識條例那這個修法的過程比較隆長尤其是飲水法總共有40條大概已經要修了30幾條所以這一部分呢航空局已經在努力的在做那我們也積極在跟他們溝通"},{"start":374.887,"end":386.84,"text":"這個必須要提升他的結案率這個是建議改善的結案率這個是非常重要的一個關鍵點另外我來提醒一下雲南匯就是在2020年的10月"},{"start":390.965,"end":396.511,"text":"其實我就曾經針對無人車、電動車這些新興的載具它的運輸安全的問題,質詢過運安會當然我們知道電動車的快速增加它當然也會帶來相關的交通風險"},{"start":408.204,"end":434.349,"text":"當然電動私人載具的快速增加是要為了達成國家的一個禁令的目標那科音業其實也要全面的電動化這是一個趨勢嘛但是它也帶來另外一種風險因為電動車的物理特性它的電動車如果發生事故其實我們在新聞已經看過很多了它起火燃燒的溫度還有它持續的時間"},{"start":435.709,"end":464.236,"text":"比傳統的油車還要久那滅火的方式也有所限制這都是在發展電動車的過程裡面社會所注意到的相關的風險那當然我知道運安會也在起手調查有兩起的電動車的事故那運安會其實也參與過國際電動車的相關的安全會議那目前我國電動車的安全的規範"},{"start":466.052,"end":487.523,"text":"我要請教運安會有沒有相關應該改善的建議來說明一下這一點我們就比較力不從心因為事實上為了調查電動車的事故我們也有加長訓練譬如說我們派人出國到美國警察大學佛羅里達警察大學他們有關電動車電池向外面的那種燃燒怎麼鋪面還有過照什麼"},{"start":489.324,"end":516.558,"text":"那國內消防署他們也有關電動車起火什麼我們也去參與他們的這個有關滅火訓練等等那事實上電動車三大部分嘛電池電控電池電動電池還有那個它裡面的安全控制工程部分但是現在台灣有關電池譬如說電動車起火看起來明明是撲滅啦它過一陣子的時候它又起火燃燒"},{"start":518.159,"end":538.468,"text":"這個不是我們的主委我們現在提到電動車這些相關的載具它真的是一個敬禮目標的一個交通運輸工具的趨勢那當然我們現在都知道電動大巴士也在政府的補助以及推動之下也在快速的成長"},{"start":539.548,"end":555.544,"text":"那電動大巴士的如果說以這樣電動車的物理特性以及相關它滅火的相關的限制或者是它起火的這種特性如果說我們的運安會主委在這邊說我們這個沒有辦法沒有基礎"},{"start":557.326,"end":577.902,"text":"這個會讓民眾憂心如果電動大巴士發生重大的交通意外事故第一個我們首先我們的調查量能就沒有第二個我們沒有無從相關的建議改善這個是一個很大的缺陷這個主委要特別去針對今年針對這種電動車相關的這種事故他的調查量能"},{"start":583.226,"end":587.11,"text":"以及相關的法規我們必須要去進行檢討我們車輛電池安全規格"},{"start":591.198,"end":613.721,"text":"還有消防交通等等的法規是不是要去增訂增修這個都要去討論啊以及事故發生時候的處理流程是怎樣來主委說明一下你們現在有沒有概念如果電動大巴士發生這種起火或者是重大的交通事故你們處理的流程是什麼"},{"start":615.137,"end":631.697,"text":"其實是這樣子啦這個就我剛剛講的電動車三大部分嘛一個是電機一個是電池一個是控制嘛那麼電池的部分目前事實上你看在國外的新聞也有常常看到就是說不管是"},{"start":633.478,"end":660.032,"text":"電動車在地下室電動車或者是電動的大巴士或什麼它起火燃燒現在全世界都在研究這個到底以電池它到底有哪些的特性它燃燒之後怎麼撲滅它那因為大家會調查是說它已經發生完了所以我們去調查但是沒有錯委員講的沒有錯我們也要知道說當時是為什麼會燃燒或什麼這個要加緊相關的因應主委你今天的說法會讓社會大眾"},{"start":663.393,"end":688.904,"text":"會產生疑慮我們對於電動大巴士以及相關的電動車相關的事故的調查到目前的基礎非常的薄弱幾乎等於零這個會讓民眾來擔憂我們應安會應該要針對這些新興的載具加速的因應其實我記得我在質詢之後好幾年前大概五年前"},{"start":689.824,"end":710.727,"text":"大概質詢這個相關的電動車新興載具的議題那運安會其實有去做進行調查範圍的一個修訂那這個運安會在這個過程裡面有沒有進行相關的研究這個進度會不會太慢 來說明一下 簡單說明一下"},{"start":712.871,"end":740.733,"text":"我們還在收集資料中中確實現在還是在收集資料 進度太慢 民眾擔憂我們會加快腳步這個會讓社會大眾針對這樣的一個新興載具它電動大巴等等的這樣一個電動車無人車相關的這個交通事故的調查量能竟然是幾乎等於零 這個我們非常的擔憂你是沒有啦 就是已經開始在動了啦"},{"start":741.935,"end":758.032,"text":"已經開始在動了這個答案真的是民眾會非常生氣我們要加緊我們的相關的這個一個調查的量以及相關的預防措施現在就要去啟動它相關的預防機制以及研究好不好是謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時39分）謝謝主席，請一下林主委。"],["主席：好，運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：主委好，運安會是在2019年成立，也即將要進入第6年了。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：當初我們在推動運安會的成立，從飛安會提升為運安會，最主要是希望能夠提升對事故調查的量能，也能夠提出改善的建議，最重要的是監督改善的落實，在相關的事故發生後，在整個調查過程中當然也累積了非常多的資料，這些資料不管是事故發生的資料，或者是改善的相關建議，都是日後我們改善交通安全最重要的基礎資料，這樣的基礎資料，我們還是發現它有幾個問題，第一個，它難以查詢；第二，它沒有進行風險因素的統整；另外，就是對於進一步的資料分析這個部分沒有落實。主委簡單說明一下運安會的基礎資料目前是不是有這樣的問題？"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員的指導，事實上112年10月份開始，整個事故調查常用統計圖表，我們已經有增加這個功能，目前運輸安全改善建議的這個頁面，我們電腦的頁面可以選相關條件、關鍵字去查。我們現在正在研議委員剛剛提到的動態統計儀表板，今年年底就會建置完成。"],["李委員昆澤：好，目前建置統計儀表板的進度是如何？我們過去已經提出很多次的要求。"],["林主任委員信得：今年年底……"],["李委員昆澤：趕快來說明。"],["鄭組長永安：委員你好。我們大概規劃分2年來建置，第一年，像今年我們會把整個改善建議的統計數字儀表板建好，明年就會針對委員所提的這些安全風險，包括安全議題的部分，也把它納入這個網站上面，幫助民眾查詢。"],["李委員昆澤：對，當然這個儀表板要納入風險的樣態分析跟政策建議的追蹤，這是這個儀表板最重要的功能，目前你們規劃是如何？"],["鄭組長永安：我們今年已經有做先期的作業，像委員要求我們每年頒布改善建議的評估報告，我們已經納入風險分析的安全議題，這個是前期的作業，這個前期作業完之後，才會把它納到這個網頁上呈現，這兩年、我們預計明年應該可以設置完成。"],["李委員昆澤：好，接下來，運安會一個重要的工作除了儀表板的建置，我想數據跟資訊的公開是下一步的關鍵，交通安全不只是運安會一個重要的職責以及交通部重要的工作，我認為這個數據跟資訊應該要公開，這個數據儀表板應該要作為一個開放式的交通安全資料庫，針對各類事故的樣態及風險分析還有系統性的風險樣態分析，我們要開放API或者是資料的查詢平臺，讓民間跟學術研究可以使用，請主委說明一下。"],["林主任委員信得：應該是包括在裡面，開放API讓民間學術能夠介接，這個應該在裡面。"],["李委員昆澤：這個是我們要努力推動的工作。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["李委員昆澤：對於相關這些基本、基礎的統計還有分析的系統，最主要就是要統計、要分析，當然最重要就是改善，這個儀表板的建置希望能夠依照我們的要求去落實。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["李委員昆澤：另外我要跟主委來討論一下，有關於年度運輸安全改善的建議評估報告，它有提出相關的改善建議結案率，我們看到飛航事故，前年的改善建議結案率98.6，今年提升到99.5，公路事故前年83.5，今年已經提升到87，鐵道的事故前年結案率有83.3，今年也提升到89.6，水路事故前年是73.4，今年雖然略有提升，但還是有兩成未結案。這個部分請主委說明一下，為什麼水路事故這個部分還是有兩成沒有結案？"],["林主任委員信得：因為有時候它有季節性，也不能講季節性，有時候在某一段時間，它案子特別多的時候，感覺上它會擠在一起，那人力是固定的。"],["李委員昆澤：這個理由不夠充實，請水路組來說明。"],["林主任委員信得：請組長跟委員說明為什麼還有兩成。"],["李委員昆澤：水路事故主要是什麼？未結案的結案率為什麼還有兩成的差距？"],["蘇組長水灶：委員好。有關於這部分，最主要是之前發生很多案子都是涉及引水作業的修訂，尤其最主要是引水法，還有航路標識條例，其修法過程比較冗長，尤其是引水法總共有40條，大概要修三十幾條，這部分航港局已經努力在做，我們也積極跟他們溝通，以上報告。"],["李委員昆澤：必須提升它的結案率，建議改善的結案率是非常重要的一個關鍵點。","另外，我來提醒一下運安會，在2020年10月，其實我就曾經針對無人車、電動車這一些新興載具的運輸安全問題質詢過運安會，當然我們知道電動車快速增加也會帶來相關的交通風險，電動私人載具的快速增加，是為了達成國家的淨零目標，客運業其實也要全面電動化，這是一個趨勢嘛！但是它也帶來另外一種風險，其實我們在新聞已經看過很多了，因為電動車的物理特性，電動車如果發生事故，它起火燃燒的溫度還有它持續的時間比傳統的油車還要高也久，滅火的方式也有所限制，這都是在發展電動車的過程裡面，社會注意到的相關風險。我知道運安會也在調查兩起電動車事故，運安會其實也參與過國際電動車相關的安全會議。我要請教運安會，目前我國電動車的安全規範有沒有相關應該改善的建議？來說明一下。"],["林主任委員信得：這一點我們就比較力不從心，事實上，為了調查電動車的事故，我們也有加強訓練，譬如說我們派人出國到美國北佛羅里達大學，他們有有關電動車電池燃燒、撲滅還有構造等等的，國內消防署也有關於電動車起火什麼的，我們也去參與他們有關的滅火訓練等等。","事實上，電動車有三大部分，電池、電控還有它裡面安全控制工程部分，但是現在臺灣有關電池，譬如說電動車起火，看起來明明是撲滅了，但過一陣子之後，它又起火燃燒，這個不是我們的……"],["李委員昆澤：主委，我們現在提到電動車這些相關的載具，它真的是淨零目標的交通運輸工具的趨勢，當然我們現在都知道，電動大巴士在政府的補助以及推動之下，也在快速的成長。關於電動大巴士，以電動車這樣的物理特性以及它滅火的相關限制，或者是它起火的這種特性，如果運安會主委在這邊說我們沒有辦法、沒有基礎，這會讓民眾憂心。如果電動大巴士發生重大的交通意外事故，第一個，我們沒有調查量能，第二個，我們沒有相關的建議改善，這個是一個很大的缺陷。主委要特別針對今年這種電動車相關的事故，它的調查量能以及相關的法規，我們必須要檢討車輛電池、安全、規格還有消防、交通等等的法規，是不是要去增訂、增修，這個都要去討論，以及事故發生時候的處理流程是怎樣？主委說明一下你們現在有沒有概念？如果電動大巴士發生起火或者是重大的交通事故，你們處理的流程是什麼？"],["林主任委員信得：其實是這樣子，就我剛剛講的，電動車有三大部分，一個是電機、一個是電池、一個是控制，電池的部分，目前事實上，你看國外的新聞也常常看到不管電動車在地下室，或者是電動大巴士起火燃燒，現在全世界都在研究鋰電池到底有哪些特性，燃燒之後要怎麼撲滅。運安會所做的調查是已經發生完之後再去調查，但是委員講得沒有錯，我們也要知道當時為什麼會燃燒或其他的，我們……"],["李委員昆澤：這部分要加緊相關的因應。"],["林主任委員信得：對，要加緊腳步。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，你今天的說法會讓社會大眾產生疑慮，我們對於電動大巴士以及電動車相關的事故調查，到目前的基礎非常地薄弱，幾乎等於零，這會讓民眾擔憂，運安會應該要針對這些新興載具加速地因應。我記得好幾年前，大概五年前我有質詢過相關電動車、新興載具的議題，在質詢之後運安會有進行調查範圍的修訂，請問運安會在這個過程裡面有沒有進行相關的研究，進度會不會太慢？簡單說明一下。"],["林主任委員信得：我們還在蒐集資料當中，確實……"],["李委員昆澤：現在還是在蒐集資料當中？"],["林主任委員信得：對，確實是。"],["李委員昆澤：進度太慢，民眾擔憂。"],["林主任委員信得：我們會加快腳步。"],["李委員昆澤：我們針對這樣的新興載具──電動大巴、電動車、無人車等相關的交通事故調查量能竟然幾乎等於零，這會讓社會大眾非常地擔憂啊！"],["林主任委員信得：沒有零啦！已經開始在動了，謝謝委員的指教。"],["李委員昆澤：這個答案真的會讓民眾非常生氣，我們要加緊相關的調查量能及預防措施，現在就要去啟動相關的預防機制及研究，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160304","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160304","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4cf83f77f75355c4ccf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b49ae5225588713dd165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:28:23 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謝謝主席我要請林主委請林信德主委何副主委請何慶生副主委陳委員 張委員 李委員還有姚主任秘書 林執行長"},{"start":26.281,"end":51.412,"text":"陳天志委員 張文煥委員 李延年委員姚承安主任秘書 林佩達執行長好 主委我一向對我們貴單位我非常支持但是我會非常嚴謹的監督我非常在乎的"},{"start":52.915,"end":81.468,"text":"就是領導團結的問題所以為什麼我也請三位委員副主委還有執行長還有主任秘書這一整個運安會裡面主導就是主委但是撫蔽的就是在座的幾位領導人所以我必須要跟主委還有在座幾位的重要幹部"},{"start":83.086,"end":103.204,"text":"一定要提醒一句話團結就是力量所以我請幾位上來主要沒惡意而是呼籲要團結但是我必須要提醒一件事情我們這個單位"},{"start":106.221,"end":119.868,"text":"是一個行政專業單位跟一般行政不一樣喔你們是專業單位喔為什麼你們的前嫌就是國家運輸安全調查委員會為什麼要掛國家"},{"start":122.082,"end":150.312,"text":"是超越行政是超越任何一個部會而是什麼只要有國家兩制通常就是獨立行使單位所以我不希望你有政治力的介入這一點我想主委你有什麼看法我來快兩年我都沒有感覺有政治力的介入而且是獨立專業的好"},{"start":152.811,"end":170.984,"text":"我本委員會我每一次在執行到處聽到就是我們不讓你解凍請問主委我們應安會解凍的東西送到立法院來了沒有我們已經準備好那行政院他會統籌辦理啊"},{"start":172.97,"end":198.163,"text":"是統籌辦理 因為我也知道啦行政院不要你們個別送嘛要統一才送嘛實體下很多部會首長就跟我講他們也想要送啊過去傳統的東西只要委員會通過了以後大概就沒有問題啊當然因為這次的審查預算 我承認"},{"start":199.758,"end":222.614,"text":"就殺到你們要害嘛 一個就是特資會 一個就是業務會嘛其實特資會是對你們傷的最嚴重但是這叫做監督啊 要提醒大家不是你們沒有錢就不能做事啊公務人員本來就是這樣啊 不是嗎 主委所以我還是要呼籲"},{"start":223.955,"end":237.607,"text":"應安會該解凍的盡快解凍你送來我身為那個召委我都願意叫你們送的那我就感覺到很奇怪我們交通"},{"start":238.925,"end":256.534,"text":"委員會裡面所有人我都呼籲他趕快送到現在 召委拜託你們送全世界找不到這樣欸你們為什麼一天到晚就是一定要什麼統一啊或什麼這個叫做什麼 政治力的介入"},{"start":260.025,"end":270.275,"text":"這個立法院要你們解凍你們不解凍你們就只有一句話當初你們要我們解凍為什麼要當初要幫我們凍其實這本來就審查預算裡面的一個"},{"start":277.296,"end":300.972,"text":"方法這解凍的問題就是你把問題說清楚講明白那就可以解凍就可以使用啊沒有3啊你們現在都混搖不清啊解凍跟3億算是不一樣的所以主委我為什麼要特別去提你不要有政治力的介入這個是我要呼籲你當然啦"},{"start":302.884,"end":309.178,"text":"你這個單位雖然小單位但是權力之大可是你們都沒有應用"},{"start":310.599,"end":332.924,"text":"該調查的還是要調查所以主委不要跟他們這跟大罷免無關啊該送的還是要送這是我以重心長特別啊給主委一個建議還有在台上的重要幹部你們不要以為你們是副主委就無權利你們不要以為你們是委員你們就無權利不是的"},{"start":333.964,"end":347.179,"text":"應該要給主委適當的方式替他們分憂解勞這是最主要的一個問題不是嗎所以我還是希望啦主委解凍的問題盡快"},{"start":349.977,"end":367.911,"text":"獨立單位有獨立單位的形式這個你們特別要去爭取啦好不好好來另外我還是要談啦主委我們的缺額在擴大人才流失是非常頭痛的"},{"start":368.51,"end":394.703,"text":"因為這個單位啊我講快一點沒有這個基本概念是無華來這個單位的啦你這個不是一般公務人員隨隨便便調來那最起碼的話一定要有他的專業嘛不是航空專長就是公路啊或者車禍有一些問題所以主委為什麼現在切額擴大到底人補進來了沒有"},{"start":396.733,"end":407.818,"text":"我們的缺額就是正常的人員流動像到目前為止近三年我們的人員流動有進有出大概是目前淨流出大概三個人"},{"start":409.241,"end":423.827,"text":"還好啊還好是但是在我看來一點都不好對不對人眼流動會有流電會有流動因為你這個單位流動一個人你就要為以籌謀因為你們是專業一個單位"},{"start":426.508,"end":444.795,"text":"你們這個人才是不好找的啦所以為什麼我把請這個在座幾位上來就是撫蔽你之外還有一點肯定你們這些都是專業那在我們這個底下這些組長也都是專業的哪一個不是專業的"},{"start":446.395,"end":469.905,"text":"所以我還是要你不要把它當成這個流動力的問題就是你們業務的問題要特別去注意還有一點就是你們現在很奇怪你們提出來的建議跟你們提出來的這些改進措施來 主委"},{"start":471.019,"end":499.112,"text":"那為什麼你們都不理你們為什麼沒有啊 我們我們這個改善協議的完成率越來越高而且這個被促進的單位他們如果有困難我們我們有幾個機制譬如說我們每三個月就會有一個計協調會議那每半年還會有一個檢討會議那今年的3月11號12號我們還特別加開市場會議好 那我請問一下台鐵為什麼你們就政這麼多項完成率會這麼低"},{"start":500.478,"end":528.691,"text":"因為他需要很多時間對嘛所以我跟你講這個只要行政院長我坦白講啦你這個單位行政院長如果不支持你當然但是流布話嘛所以這些牽涉到安全的問題拜託主委要去爭取該監督的還是要監督該追蹤的還是要監督所以在這個部分我還是建議你們要提出來除了除了"},{"start":529.671,"end":559.231,"text":"建議改善之外你們根本就沒有監督機制嘛所以我建議我們在座幾位回去稍微研究一下我雖然我雖然是提出改進但是我後面有氣無力啊我沒有法的依據去追蹤去要求他改進啊處處都要所屬單位長官去督促這個叫做間接的監督這個效力不好的"},{"start":559.791,"end":574.979,"text":"要我們應安會有直接監督的力道所以我建議這個部分該修法的該修辦法或者該修法去把它放進去的這個是要特別這個特別我建議啦"},{"start":575.879,"end":592.979,"text":"那最後我還是期待啦流動力的問題還有跟這些政治力的結合問題我還是希望主委最後我還是呼籲團結就是力量雖然我們是小單位但是我們的責任重大"},{"start":594.111,"end":615.871,"text":"責任重大所以最後我給你建議的就是說你如果覺得後續監督改進的力道不足就要修改法令去把它放進去這樣的話可能在整個行政機關的效益會更好這樣的話也會達到我們應安會的一切"},{"start":616.872,"end":626.993,"text":"保護所有的這些交通安全是有所幫助的主委這點我給你建議我希望你參考一下好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時28分）謝謝主席，我要請林主委、何副主委、陳委員、張委員、李委員、姚主任秘書、林執行長。"],["主席：請林信得主委、何慶生副主委、陳天賜委員、張文環委員、李延年委員、姚辰安主任秘書、林沛達執行長。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["林委員國成：主委，我一向對貴單位非常支持，但是我會非常嚴謹的監督，我非常在乎的就是領導、團結的問題，所以為什麼我也請三位委員、副主委、執行長還有主任秘書上來，整個運安會裡面，主導的就是主委，但是輔弼的就是在座的幾位領導人，所以我必須跟主委還有在座幾位重要幹部提醒一句話，團結就是力量！"],["林主任委員信得：一定的！一定的！"],["林委員國成：我請幾位上來並沒有惡意，而是呼籲要團結。但是我必須要提醒一件事情，你們這個單位是一個專業行政單位，跟一般行政不一樣，你們是專業單位，你們的全銜是國家運輸安全調查委員會，為什麼前面要掛「國家」？因為是超越一般行政，是超越任何一個部會，只要有「國家」兩個字，通常就是獨立行使職權的單位，所以我不希望你有政治力的介入，主委，你對這一點有什麼看法？"],["林主任委員信得：我來快兩年了，我都沒有感覺到有政治力的介入，完全是獨立專業的。"],["林委員國成：好，我每一次在本委員會質詢，到處聽到的就是我們不讓你解凍，請問主委，運安會的解凍案送到立法院了沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：我們已經準備好了，行政院會統籌辦理。"],["林委員國成：是統籌辦理，我也知道，因為行政院不要你們個別送，要統一送。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["林委員國成：有很多部會首長私底下跟我講，他們也想要送，根據過去的傳統，只要委員會通過以後，大概就沒有問題了。當然在這一次審查預算，我承認就殺到你們的要害，一個就是特支費，一個就是業務費，其實特支費對你們傷得最嚴重，但是這叫做監督，就是要提醒大家，不是你們沒有錢就不能做事啊！主委，公務人員本來就是這樣啊！不是嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：所以我還是要呼籲，運安會該解凍的要儘快解凍，你把解凍案送過來，我身為召委，我都願意叫你們送了，那我就覺得很奇怪，對我們交通委員會審查的所有單位，我都呼籲要趕快送，召委拜託你們送，全世界找不到這樣的，你們為什麼一天到晚就是一定要統一送來？這個叫做什麼？就是政治力的介入，立法院要幫你們解凍，你們不把解凍案送來，你們只有講一句話：為什麼當初要凍我們的預算？其實這本來就是審查預算裡面的一個方法，就是你針對委員提的問題說清楚、講明白，那就可以解凍、就可以使用了，並沒有刪啊！可是你們現在都混淆不清，凍結跟刪預算是不一樣的。主委，我為什麼要特別提醒你不要有政治力的介入，我是要呼籲你，你這個單位雖然是小單位，權力卻很大，可是你們都沒有運用，該調查的還是要調查。主委，這跟大罷免無關，該送的還是要送，我特別語重心長的給主委一個建議，還有這幾位在臺上的重要幹部，你們不要以為你們是副主委就無權力，你們不要以為你們是委員就無權力，不是這樣的，應該要以適當的方式替主委分憂解勞，這是最主要的一個問題，不是嗎？主委，我還是希望解凍的問題儘快解決，獨立單位要獨立的行使，所以你們要特別去爭取，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：另外，我還是要談一點，就是你們的缺額再擴大，人才流失是非常頭痛的問題，如果沒有這方面的基本概念，是無法來這個單位的，不是隨隨便便把一般公務人員調來就可以勝任，最起碼一定要有專業，不是有航空方面的專長，就是對公路或者車禍問題有研究。主委，為什麼現在缺額會擴大，到底人補進來了沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：我們就是正常的人員流動，近3年我們的人員有進也有出，到目前淨流出大概是3個人，還好啊！"],["林委員國成：還好嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：但是在我看來，這樣一點都不好，主委，人員會有流動，你這個單位有流動1個人，你就要未雨綢繆，因為你們是專業的單位，這方面的人才是不好找的啦！為什麼我請這幾位上來？除了要他們輔弼你之外，還有就是肯定你們這些專業的人，坐在底下的這些組長也都是專業的，哪一個人不是專業的？所以你不要認為這個只是流動率的問題，這就是你們業務的問題，所以要特別去注意。還有一點，你們現在很奇怪，主委，對你們提出來的建議跟你們提出來的這些改進措施，為什麼那些單位都不理你們？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有啊！我們改善建議的完成率越來越高，而且受建議的單位如果有困難，我們也有幾個機制，譬如說，我們每3個月就會有一個季協調會議，每半年還會有一個檢討會議，我們在今年3月11號、12號還特別加開4場會議。"],["林委員國成：好，那我請問一下，為什麼你們糾正臺鐵這麼多項，完成率卻這麼低？"],["林主任委員信得：因為它需要很多時間，不但要編預算，組織也要調整。"],["林委員國成：對嘛！我坦白講，行政院長如果不支持你這個單位，那當然就是牛步化嘛！這些是牽涉到安全的問題，所以拜託主委要去爭取，該監督的還是要監督，該追蹤的還是要追蹤。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：對這個部分我還是建議你們要提出來，除了建議改善之外，你們根本就沒有監督機制嘛！所以我建議在座幾位回去稍微研究一下，因為雖然有提出改進的建議，但是後面有氣無力啊！也沒有法的依據去追蹤、去要求他改進啊！處處都要所屬單位長官去督促，這個叫做間接的監督，這個成效是不好的，應該要讓運安會有直接監督的力道，所以我建議對這個部分應該要修法或修辦法把它放進去，我特別提出這個建議。","最後，我還是期待你們解決流動率的問題還有政治力介入的問題，主委，最後我還是要呼籲，團結就是力量，雖然我們是小單位，但是我們的責任重大，責任非常重大，所以我要建議你，如果你覺得後續監督改進的力道不足，就要修改法令把它放進去，這樣可能在整個行政機關的效益會更好，對於運安會保護所有交通安全也有所幫助，主委，這一點是我給你的建議，我希望你參考一下好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員國成）：接下來請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4763e2541cb8c4794cf11904fa481b7b675aa7aeb25548b490ee0c4d3fa6fe9775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:15:30 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主委好 主委本席剛剛聆聽了您的這個業務報告其中針對本席過去一直也很關注的就是ADAS 自動駕駛輔助系統你們也針對這個部分有做事故調查報告本席也把它給看完了那你的結論其實還是不脫離第一是有所謂的人為因素 對不對"},{"start":33.994,"end":59.336,"text":"那第二就說在這個撞擊的所謂的這個工程車的一個部分其實可能ADAS的這個系統有不管是什麼樣的系統它有一些是沒有辦法偵測到說緩步的工程車的狀況是不是這樣子對 對 回答對不起對不起我剛剛在看對不起好沒關係 來 主委"},{"start":61.542,"end":90.865,"text":"是嗎對啊好那其中人為的因素的部分我們要怎麼樣降低我想這應該是我們大家共同也來努力的地方是在ADAS自動駕駛輔助系統其實重點是要幫助駕駛可以某種程度上減輕駕駛的負擔但是絕對不是替代駕駛對不對沒有錯好在2021年其實在自動輔助系統出來之後就已經有在網路上有所謂的這個叫自駕神器我不知道主委有沒有聽過"},{"start":93.125,"end":119.492,"text":"有嘛就是說自動下駛因為我們要防止說人為不要去雙手解放開所以說他就是要求說你手一定要在方向盤上但是這個上有政策下有對策啊所以說就有人就是賣所謂的這個防撞神器就是配重盤在方向盤上模擬手放在那上面那2022年2023年也都有相關報導那但是到目前為止"},{"start":120.424,"end":148.279,"text":"主委知道這樣的一個神器可以在哪裡買得到嗎我是不知道不知道因為你沒有開自動駕駛車網路上有嘛對啊大家同仁也都清楚是不是因為本席查了一下到目前為止隨便查你的隨便查你的這個關鍵字還不用太多洋洋灑灑"},{"start":149.878,"end":175.413,"text":"都是啊我就不講哪個廠牌啊但是它的價格從多少錢從329塊一直到就差不多300多塊它就是模擬一個沙包放在那個方向盤上那我有看到交通部也有注意速發部也有注意所以說有發函給在去年年底的時候有發函給一些比較大的拍賣場拍賣賣場"},{"start":178.004,"end":194.434,"text":"警告說這有可能會造成這所謂的道教條例但是還是沒有辦法完全的根基啊而且本時我也沒有開自動自動駕駛車啊我也沒有開電動車啊但是我隨便查一下這樣的一個部分就已經有看到300多塊"},{"start":195.675,"end":213.253,"text":"那如果說我們做出來的報告是告訴人講是說人為的因素佔很大宗ADAS你不能完全信任你還是要專注在這個價值上那這樣子的一個自駕神器配重神器就跟我們的政策背道而馳啊 主委"},{"start":215.393,"end":241.006,"text":"台灣還沒有達到百分之百自家工人的系統他們都是屬於先進價值輔助系統那自從上次那個戴雅路端那個案子公布之後我們有去訪查那個高工局甚至公路局他們在各個主要道路的那個高速公路那個顯示板他們都會警告說"},{"start":242.246,"end":268.706,"text":"進入茶大的時候在某些特殊狀況的時候請勿開啟先進駕駛因為他認為他有他的局限性是主委現在就是現實狀況跟我們實際狀況不同嘛我們不能只是學術研究我現在講的是說我另外再找到另外一個拍賣他從700多塊到1000多塊不等就可以替代騙電腦你有在駕駛那這樣子的部分"},{"start":269.756,"end":296.378,"text":"運安會已經做出報告也告訴大家說人為的因素占大宗這是你的結論嘛對那這樣子是不是能夠運安會你找到問題協同網路主管機關 速發部協同交通部 協同經濟部至少讓這樣子的因為這個東西很難界定它是否違法但是它確實會造成道路上非常嚴重的交通安全"},{"start":297.54,"end":319.753,"text":"那既然你運安會已經做出了報告也證實是說A大使不能完全的信任那能不能有比較明確告訴我們的駕駛朋友不要使用這樣的一個工具有可能害人害己方便99次但是只要有一次不方便那就是天人永隔可以嗎"},{"start":320.839,"end":338.085,"text":"我認為這個是很可惜的我們會把這個資訊納入下一次我們在有關電動車ADAS的調查過程裡面我們特別建議的是本席要求的是應該是要找交通部應該是要找速發部共同來沒有錯我們會協調交通部會跟交通部說你這個有關未來的這個檢驗多久時間可以來做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":343.328,"end":365.314,"text":"我們會不要讓民眾那麼方便使用好像這個東西是變成是我們沒有鼓勵啊我們甚至要求說不應該要出現這樣的東西啊因為它跟我們的設計是背道而馳的啊是我們來協調交通部啊 塑化部啊 經濟部看有關這個所謂自駕自駕車跟經濟就ADAS這個它是還是有區隔的啦好 所以因為我還有其他議題一個月內我們來溝通協調可以嗎"},{"start":368.747,"end":384.165,"text":"我們來協助交通部看看不是協助我們跟他講你們找交通部找速發部找經濟部找相關部會來溝通這樣的一個部分好嗎一個月內那如果說後續的資料再請提供給本席那再來第二個"},{"start":385.006,"end":408.035,"text":"主委現在我們看到說這個隨身電源啊很多航空公司我們國內的航空都禁止對不對因為它有可能有自然的狀況但是隨身電源大家比較能夠理解可是現在還有一些情況我想這也是從我們的飛安自願報告系統裡面這今年2月找出來的一個自願報告系統您看一下他說"},{"start":409.373,"end":428.89,"text":"藍牙耳機因為現在我們有太多東西都是所謂的這個有離電池嘛藍牙耳機也是一個這個是2月20號的時候有人反映說坐航空公司的時候他藍牙耳機掉到座位裡面因為考量藍牙耳機有離電池沒有取出來會對飛航造成安全危險他可能卡在那邊"},{"start":430.967,"end":440.479,"text":"不小心或是未來有可能有自然的風險導致派遣員工等等拆除座椅拿出耳機而造成航班的延誤"},{"start":441.994,"end":468.577,"text":"您知道這個狀況嗎對 我有聽說 但是我覺得這個實際上是這個上一段時間對越來越多的突發狀況我會把這個訊息再跟他確認本席現在要講 你們您看一下你的處理結果是未來發生類似事情優先通報並且用相關的辦法磁吸棒 磁加物等來取出耳機嘛"},{"start":469.378,"end":497.551,"text":"那不是只是針對這個因為您剛剛講到上有政策沒有錯就是現在有越來越多我們國人使用的時候或是說全世界的先進產品越來越多是有離電池那掛一漏萬的情況下是不是應該我們要超前部署就是說針對這個部分有一視同仁的要求跟標準或是說參考其他國家的案例該怎麼樣的處理我們不可能禁止國人或是不可能禁止全世界人類不用藍牙耳機"},{"start":498.581,"end":503.598,"text":"那有這樣的狀況要怎麼樣處理是不是應該要訂出一個標準跟方法"},{"start":504.702,"end":532.606,"text":"我們會在揮揚安全事件調查案子裡面把這個藝術考慮裡面跟民產局在協調請他們要特別注意這個把他拉進去或者是說是不是之後可能要求我們機場公司還是相關單位可能因為針對這個離電池藍芽耳機他可能他的特性是有你看磁吸棒他可能裡面是有磁鐵或是說有金屬相關所以採取磁吸棒比較容易把卡在"},{"start":534.841,"end":555.671,"text":"細縫裡面的這些物品給取出來是不是而不是發生問題之後找不到工具對 這個是很好的一個意見我會同樣轉給美鳳姐前面跟航空公司討論的時候這個也是屬於其中的一個改善的方式好 因為現在我們看到就是說有自然的一個狀況嘛那甚至我們這個"},{"start":557.372,"end":580.846,"text":"這個月還有看到高鐵或台鐵也有隨身電源自燃的狀況當然路上的交通工具我也查了各全國都目前是沒有禁止路上交通工具使用但是宣導的部分要告訴國人是說離電池他如果說使用壽命太久可能有相關的運輸風險這可能也是未來我們要考量的狀況最後講到電池啊"},{"start":582.165,"end":601.336,"text":"為什麼會這樣提就是因為最近也有一個議題我想我也在這邊提出來跟主委這邊來就教主委兩天前有平面媒體報導非法改裝露營車的問題我不知道你有沒有注意到其實最主要是台灣現在因為疫情過後很多的民眾也都認為是說露營是一個風潮"},{"start":603.317,"end":631.004,"text":"那所以說就會購買露營車但是購買車輛去改裝露營車可是台灣現在的道路相關法規不管是交通部不管是我們其他單位其實對於露營車的規範沒有那麼的明確那其中衍生一個很大的問題是很多人會去做這個露營車的一個改裝但是因為沒有改裝法規所以就變成是他會先送車體給車安中心"},{"start":636.059,"end":656.759,"text":"這個先去驗車 驗車完畢之後再去做改裝那改裝民間改裝廠他可能還會有增加什麼太陽光電板或者說這個增加這個便宜的電瓶而導致充電時候行走時候起火時有所聞那這些狀況其實無形當中也都會增加在道路上的一個安全風險"},{"start":658.344,"end":681.632,"text":"確實沒有錯 我會提醒交通主管機關來注意這一點 確實沒有錯主委 因為這個部分現在還沒有發生 其實我覺得很好的情況是運安會如果我們每一次都可以針對這些事情來去做超前的討論我本席是期待的 因為代表沒有事情發生我們都是在討論未來有可能的風險 我們來降低風險"},{"start":683.72,"end":710.019,"text":"所以現在露營車的狀況前幾天大篇幅的報導那有講到是說希望有合格合法的改裝規範規劃到底怎麼樣的改裝是符合我們的標準符合我們的需求那以及可以讓真的使用露營車的人合法安心上路這一點部分運安會可以跟交通部來做怎麼樣的一個努力"},{"start":710.632,"end":719.357,"text":"我們可以把它變成一個議題式的案子來做分析跟交通部來合作好那這個議題我們什麼時候可以啟動"},{"start":720.476,"end":740.956,"text":"這個也要因為這個不好意思這不是我們主管但是我要跟交通部協調說有這個議題你們是不是只派公路局啊或是哪個單位來對這個案子來跟我們做我們有一個運輸安全組我們跟他看看有沒有這個議題試試看怎麼樣來研究這個好那我也拜託主委那是不是就是一個月內跟交通部內針對這個議題來去做溝通是沒問題好感謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":95,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時15分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請林主委。"],["主席：林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，本席剛剛聆聽了你的業務報告，其中針對本席過去一直也很關注的就是ADAS自動駕駛輔助系統，你們也針對這個部分有做事故調查報告，本席也把它看完了，你的結論其實還是不脫離第一，是有所謂的人為因素，對不對？第二，在緩撞工程車的部分，其實可能ADAS的系統，不管是什麼樣的系統，有一些是沒有辦法偵測到緩撞工程車的狀況，是不是這樣子？"],["林主任委員信得：對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：請回答。"],["主席：請回答。"],["林主任委員信得：對不起，我剛剛在跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係。主委，是嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。其中人為因素的部分，我們要怎麼樣降低，我想這應該是我們大家也來共同努力的地方。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：ADAS自動駕駛輔助系統其實重點是要幫助駕駛，可以某種程度上減輕駕駛的負擔，但是絕對不是替代駕駛，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：在2021年其實在自動輔助系統出來之後，在網路上就已經有所謂的自駕神器，我不知道主委有沒有聽過？"],["林主任委員信得：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嘛！自動駕駛，因為我們要防止人為因素，不要雙手解放開，所以就是要求你手一定要在方向盤上，但是上有政策，下有對策，所以有人就賣所謂的自駕神器，就是配重盤，在方向盤上模擬手放在上面，2022年、2023年也都有相關報導。到目前為止，主委知道這樣的神器可以在哪裡買得到嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我是不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：不知道？因為你沒有開自動駕駛車。網路上有嘛！同仁也都清楚，是不是？因為本席查了一下，到目前為止，隨便查，關鍵字還不用太多，洋洋灑灑都是，我就不講哪個廠牌，但是它的價格有329元等等，差不多就是三百多塊，它就是模擬一個沙包放在那個方向盤上，我有看到交通部也有注意，數發部也有注意，所以在去年年底的時候，有發函給一些比較大的拍賣賣場，警告這有可能會違反道交條例，但是還是沒有辦法完全的根絕。本席也沒有開自動駕駛車，我也沒有開電動車，但是我隨便查一下就已經有看到，三百多塊。如果我們做出的報告是告訴我們人為的因素占很大宗，ADAS不能完全信任，你還是要專注在駕駛上，這樣子的自駕神器、配重神器就跟我們的政策背道而馳。"],["林主任委員信得：臺灣還沒有達到百分之百自駕功能的系統，它們都是屬於先進駕駛輔助系統，自從上次大雅路段那個案子公布之後，我們有去訪查，高公局甚至公路局在各個主要道路、高速公路的顯示板，他們都會警告進入閘道的時候、在某個特殊路段的時候，請勿開啟先進駕駛模式，因為他們認為它有侷限性。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。主委，現在就是現實狀況跟實際狀況不同，我們不能只是學術研究。我現在講的是，我另外再找到一個拍賣賣場，它從七百多塊到一千多塊不等就可以替代，騙電腦有在駕駛。這樣子的部分，運安會已經做出報告，也告訴大家說，人為的因素占大宗，這是你的結論嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是運安會找到問題後，能夠協同網路主管機關數發部，協同交通部，協同經濟部來做？因為這個東西很難界定它是否違法，但是它確實會造成道路上非常嚴重的交通安全風險。既然運安會已經做出了報告，也證實了ADAS不能完全的信任，能不能比較明確地告訴我們駕駛朋友，不要使用這樣一個工具，有可能害人害己，方便99次，但是只要有1次不方便，那就是天人永隔，可以嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我認為這是可行的，我們會把這個資訊納入下一次有關電動車ADAS的調查過程裡面，我們會特別把它點出來，請交通部……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席要求的是應該要找交通部，應該要找數發部共同來把它點出來，請交通部……"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯！沒有錯！我們會協調交通部，跟交通部講，有關未來的檢驗……"],["洪委員孟楷：多久時間可以處理？不要讓民眾那麼方便使用後，變成這個東西好像是可以的。我們並沒有鼓勵，我們甚至要求不應該出現這樣的東西，因為它跟我們的設計是背道而馳的。"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們來協調交通部、數發部、經濟部，就有關自駕車跟ADAS的部分，畢竟它還是有區隔的……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我還有其他議題要問，所以1個月內來溝通協調，可以嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們來跟交通部講……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們找交通部、找數發部、找經濟部、找相關部會溝通這樣一個部分，好嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們來……"],["洪委員孟楷：1個月內，如果有後續的資料，再請提供給本席。","再來是第二個，主委，現在的隨身電源我們國內的航空公司都禁止了，因為它有可能有自燃的狀況，而隨身電源的情況大家比較能夠理解，可是現在還有一些情況，這是今年2月從我們的飛安自願報告系統看到的，請主委看一下。這裡提到藍芽耳機，因為現在我們有太多東西都含有鋰電池，藍芽耳機也是其中一個。2月20號的時候，有人反映，有旅客搭飛機的時候，他的藍芽耳機掉到座位裡面，因為考量藍芽耳機含有鋰電池，沒有取出來的話會對飛航造成安全風險，卡在那邊可能會有意外或是未來可能有自燃的風險，導致派遣員工上機拆除座椅拿出耳機，進而造成航班延誤。您知道這個狀況嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對，我有聽說，確實有越來越多的突發狀況，我會再跟民航局確認這個訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在要講的是，您看一下，處理結果是未來發生類似事情優先通報，並且用相關的辦法，像磁吸棒、拾物夾等方式取出耳機。不是只有針對這個，您剛剛講到上有政策，沒有錯，現在有越來越多國人使用或是全世界越來越多先進產品含有鋰電池，在掛一漏萬的情況下，是不是我們應該要超前部署，針對這個部分有一視同仁的要求跟標準，或是參考其他國家的案例，該做怎麼樣的處理？我們不可能禁止國人或是不可能禁止全世界人類不要用藍芽耳機，有這樣的狀況時要怎麼樣處理，是不是應該要訂出一個標準跟方法？"],["林主任委員信得：我們會在飛航安全事件調查案子裡面，把這個因素考慮在裡面，再跟民航局協調，請他們要特別注意這個，把它納進去，改善……"],["洪委員孟楷：或者是之後可能去要求機場公司還是相關單位，針對鋰電池、藍芽耳機等等的特性，像磁吸棒，裡面可能有磁鐵或者是金屬相關，採用磁吸棒比較容易把卡在細縫裡面的那些物品給取出來，是不是？而不是發生問題之後找不到工具。"],["林主任委員信得：對，這是一個很好的意見，我會同樣轉給民航局，請它在跟航空公司討論的時候，這也可以是其中一個改善的方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在我們看到有自燃的狀況，甚至這個月還看到高鐵或臺鐵也有發生隨身電源自燃的狀況，當然陸上的交通工具，我也查了，全國目前都沒有禁止陸上交通工具使用，但是宣導的部分要告訴國人，鋰電池如果使用壽命太久，可能會有相關的運輸風險，這可能也是未來我們要考量的狀況。","最後，講到電池，為什麼會這樣提？因為最近也有一個議題，我在這邊也提出來跟主委就教。主委，兩天前有平面媒體報導非法改裝露營車的問題，我不知道你有沒有注意到？最主要是因為臺灣在疫情過後，很多民眾也都認為露營是一個風潮，所以就會去購買車輛來改裝成露營車，可是臺灣現在的道路相關法規，不管是交通部或是其他單位，其實對於露營車的規範並沒有那麼明確。其中衍生一個很大的問題是，很多人會去改裝露營車，但是因為沒有改裝的相關法規，所以變成他會先送車體給車安中心驗車，驗車完畢之後再去改裝，而民間改裝廠可能還會增加太陽光電板或是增加較便宜的電瓶，導致充電或行走的時候起火，這時有所聞，這些狀況其實無形當中也都會增加道路上的安全風險。"],["林主任委員信得：確實沒有錯，我會提醒交通主管機關來注意這一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，這個部分現在還沒有發生，其實我覺得有一個很好的情況，如果運安會每一次都可以針對這些事情做超前的討論，本席是期待的，因為代表還沒有事情發生，我們都是在討論未來可能的風險，想辦法降低風險。","現在露營車的狀況前幾天有大篇幅的報導，當中有講到希望有合格、合法的改裝規範，規劃到底怎麼樣改裝才符合我們的標準、符合我們的需求，讓真的要使用露營車的人可以合法、安心上路，這一點運安會可以跟交通部來做什麼樣的努力？"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以把它變成一個議題式的案子分析，並跟交通部合作。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這個議題我們什麼時候可以啟動？"],["林主任委員信得：不好意思，這不是我們主管，但是我要跟交通部協調說有這個議題，你們是不是指派公路局或是哪個單位，針對這個案子跟我們的運輸安全組進行相關的研究。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我也拜託主委，是不是1個月內跟交通部針對這個議題去溝通？"],["林主任委員信得：是，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，感謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。"],["主席（洪委員孟楷代）：接下來再請第二位林國成召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},{"id":"160302","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160302","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4b902423cdfb04023320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b490756ed8debd6e0f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:29:51 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20%或32%"},{"start":136.111,"end":158.21,"text":"還沒有到那麼細緻因為畢竟關稅它的這個代表的意義跟它的量體比這個碳大很多所以我們基本上是看完之後也看這個相關產業的發展然後最後決定說像這樣的結論就是我們預估可能的一個情境但是實際上有多少信心減少多少投資減少多少這個還要再一段時間才能估算的出來"},{"start":158.951,"end":187.102,"text":"那你們可以依照現在因為你至少就10%的現在就是10%嘛那未來可能還會再提高那對於這樣子有沒有一個比較細緻的量化的分析因為目前這個我們的電子業的影響雖然是有但是沒有想像中來得這麼的高那台灣的主要的碳費很大的來源現在是半導體業的影響那當然啦石化產業或鋼鐵業他過去幾年經營得比較辛苦所以其實我們現在對於那種需要"},{"start":188.123,"end":197.353,"text":"幫忙的部分我們也會爭取的經費跟經濟部一起來合作協助產業轉型好謝謝這就是接下來要問的因為你也看到你說具體的減碳目標是不會改變的"},{"start":197.932,"end":220.574,"text":"那我想要問在這樣的情況之下你們會不會針對尤其是我們中部有這些重災區啊有很多的中小企業像你說鋼鐵或甚至一些機械業等等的有沒有可能採取這個降低減碳目標或者是針對特定的或者是暫緩收取碳費的方式來協助這些企業來達到這個轉型的可行的措施"},{"start":221.235,"end":244.213,"text":"那你也有提到一些專案補助的輔導那具體的內容是什麼因為這個都會影響到如何協助企業在這麼複雜的國際環境中可以堅定的推進淨零轉型好謝謝委員因為整個中南部有很多的扣件業者特別是螺絲的業者他們疏歐他們都很擔心不過跟委員報告其實因為目前的扣件業者只有一家要收碳費"},{"start":245.074,"end":269.617,"text":"大概他大概交的話大概只要交18萬如果按照他什麼都不做檢探18萬就好了所以其實影響是很小的那第二個呢他對蘇歐可能會有影響可是目前的CBAN他的目前的草案是50噸以上才要再收所以50噸的對多數的企業特別是中小企業蘇歐其實沒有那麼高所以請中小企業其實可以放心那目前的我們會加強跟歐盟的聯繫如果"},{"start":269.997,"end":279.762,"text":"因為目前的擴建業者基本上大多只有一家要收而已其他多數都不用收碳費所以目前我們會積極的來保障他們在歐盟的協商的部分能夠銜接的上"},{"start":280.373,"end":303.368,"text":"那針對去美國的這些出口的企業呢目前美國出口的跟碳是比較沒有什麼影響因為美國沒有美國的CBAN但是問題是說我覺得產業在這波關稅的挑戰之下它的轉型是最重要的轉型兩個一個是綠色轉型一個是數位轉型那這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起積極來合作協助這種所謂的會碳排的產業"},{"start":304.188,"end":322.142,"text":"對 因為其實我也有看到你們今天報告有寫到一個你們去年7月1號有發布這個溫室氣體減量額度的交易拍賣跟移轉管理辦法對不對 它截至今年的4月11日起有受理了63案的這個專案註冊申請那通過了16案那環境部在去年辦理5場次的這個自願減量專案的說明會共計908人參加那我就想說那你們今年預估要辦幾場是不是可以擴大辦理"},{"start":334.037,"end":361.585,"text":"報告委員 這個我們正在演繹這個預計會有非常多場來跟產業來溝通中部也會去進行所以到時候也請委員多跟我們知道我們預計會有很多場去做產業面對面的溝通因為有時候我們設想的問題不見得每一個廠商都可以對 一定要現場溝通所以我今天問題就是說這個部分有沒有預計新的一年要辦多少場非常多目前我們自己隨便算大概都三四十場以上好 很好 謝謝"},{"start":362.805,"end":383.961,"text":"因為目前上一年是五場看到如果有這樣子的成效可以繼續再辦理下去我們也會支持另外就是在淨零轉型的部分當然不僅是挑戰也是機遇那根據2024年的中華民國溫室氣體的排放清測報告在能源部分燃料的燃燒還是仍然是主要的排放來源那超過了50%"},{"start":385.262,"end":397.518,"text":"那你今天的書面報告也有提到說石化燃料提升就提高了他競爭力變成主流也是可以預見的但是反過來說台灣經歷這麼多年了這些再生能源風電啊等等等等的其實"},{"start":398.834,"end":420.383,"text":"不僅可以看到未來是有這個極限的存在也不可能真正取代所謂的石化能源的目標那簡單來講現在我們真的也是進度落後所以剛剛其實有委員問到有關於這個非核家園這個神主牌我是想要請問當然現在立法院的在野黨很多的立委也有提案要來修這個法"},{"start":421.403,"end":435.749,"text":"但我想要請問一下因為這個過程中想要問部長你的態度是什麼因為你剛剛有講到有媒體錯誤報導錯誤引用是不是就是有擷取部分可是然後你說這個應該是在全方位任性委員會討論不是在你的氣候變遷委員會討論可是這個部分我覺得我也沒有很認同我覺得氣候變遷委員會應該也要討論因為這跟碳排也有很大的關係所以我就想要問那部長你自己的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":451.315,"end":461.266,"text":"包委員因為我當時在算這個淨零的路徑的時候這個的確是一個選項但是我自己真的去算了之後發現有很多的可執行的難度的問題"},{"start":462.778,"end":484.864,"text":"錢很多 廢料 安全的問題 斷層的問題這個都不是我可以解決的那包含現在 包含美國也有很多是支持也質疑我們的執政團隊為什麼這個選項不選擇啊那我 沒關係我只是想問你個人的表態啊因為總不能夠 為什麼這時候要問啊就是你總是要表態說你究竟認為這個是不是一個可行的方案而且你支持不支持"},{"start":485.704,"end":502.846,"text":"這困難可以克服 包含修法也是一種困難可是總不能說 之前我質詢過我們的院長也說 之前的另外一位部長也說你們先修法通過但問題是 好啊 修法通過了你們會執行嗎這就是我的問題所以我希望部長在這個部分是不是可以表態一下"},{"start":503.206,"end":532.341,"text":"不過包委員因為我不是核能的主管機關我也不是能源主管機關我們從淨零碳排的確是可以給一些意見那事實上從這個角度你支持嗎我認為當然這個其實它有很多複雜的因素例如說像我們過去的核電廠是沒有環評的也不知道當時的地理的狀況現在到這個時間點如果也要做要完整的去做處理這個以我們環評的經驗花上幾年都跑不掉所以基本上我會覺得是說這個很多困難挑戰所以你認為"},{"start":532.841,"end":555.845,"text":"你不支持我不是不支持就是說真的要說起來很困難部長不是不支持只是過程中有很多挑戰基本上我是開放來看這個事情任何好的能源好的方式我們都開放來討論但是這的確有它歷史的共業因為過去決定這個事情不是那麼民主的來執行的嘛現在所以這個問題要做真的很辛苦啦那所以部長還是不願意表態支持不支持那如果立法院修法通過之後你會支持嗎"},{"start":556.992,"end":579.724,"text":"我會遵照大院的這個建議但是我必須也提醒這個委員這個要真的要做是非常辛苦的因為台灣沒有這樣的經驗過好那最後一個問題台中有民眾響應我們的環保回收那並遵照這個減三排三大步驟操作後將手機回收結果殊不知啊他回收的隔天開始他的Apple Pay"},{"start":580.191,"end":602.417,"text":"竟然被盜用還盜刷了高鐵票而且共73筆的交易高達10萬元以上重點是整個過程中他也沒有收到任何交易的簡訊通知那想要請教部長一下面對民眾響應這個環保回收而且即便已經遵照了步驟來操作卻仍遭到盜刷跟資料外洩的事情是否會讓民眾不敢再響應這個環保活動"},{"start":604.94,"end":622.697,"text":"這個委員我今天才知道這個事情我再來請我們了解一下你知道嗎這個部分我們我們再了解一下那麻煩部長了解一下因為我想這個是一件本來是善意但發生這個事可能會影響到大家的這個回收的意願OK好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝六委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["彭部長啓明：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。我想今天大家應該都很關心川普總統上臺之後，他再次表明退出巴黎氣候協定，根據國際能源總署的評估，美國退出協定可能導致全球減碳的努力損失將近20%以上的動能，這個決定當然對全球的氣候治理影響非常大。再加上現在美國關稅的政策轉彎，對我們出口產業的淨零轉型造成很大的壓力，臺灣企業也面臨著關稅壁壘跟碳邊境調整機制的雙重挑戰，剛剛講過了。但是我們也看到有40%的出口企業表示可能會放緩碳減排的投資。你的報告也有寫到，美國政策造成了全球綠能投資的信心或減碳的企圖受挫是可以預見的，畢竟對於整個企業來說，投入減碳要提高很多的成本，再加上現在的關稅，可能直接導致所謂的企業獲利下降，甚至虧損倒閉的問題。我也接續著剛剛邱鎮軍委員在問的，這兩難的困境，你也在你的受訪裡面有講到，可能初步全國的碳費規模就會破300億左右……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，50到60億。"],["廖委員偉翔：50到60億？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後後面會再增加。再來就是關稅的部分，根據經濟部推估的影響也非常高，我想要請問一下部長，目前面對現在整體的不管是關稅的衝擊等等，對於美國的政策轉變，政府有沒有更詳盡的量化分析評估？它對於國內產業淨零轉型的具體衝擊是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個是要知道他的關稅最後的版本是什麼，因為每天都在變，所以我們是滾動式的在調整，那……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們有照這個層次去做一個比較細緻的分析嗎？比如假設10%、20%或32%。"],["彭部長啓明：還沒有到這麼細緻，畢竟關稅所代表的意義跟它的量體比碳大很多，還要大很多，所以我們基本上是看完之後，也看相關產業的發展，然後最後決定這樣的結論就是我們預估可能的情境，但是實際上有多少，信心數減少多少、投資減少多少，這個還要再一段時間才能估算得出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你們可以依照現在，因為現在就是10%，那未來可能還會再提高，對於這樣子有沒有一個比較細緻的量化分析？"],["彭部長啓明：因為目前我們電子業的影響雖然是有，但是沒有想像中來得這麼的高，那臺灣主要的碳費，很大的來源現在是半導體業的影響，當然石化產業或鋼鐵業過去幾年經營得比較辛苦，所以現在對於那種需要幫忙的部分，我們也會爭取經費，跟經濟部一起來合作，協助產業轉型。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。這就是接下來要問的，因為你說具體的減碳目標是不會改變的，那我想要問，在這樣的情況之下，你們會不會針對……尤其是我們中部有重災區，有很多的中小企業，像你說的鋼鐵或甚至是一些機械業等等，有沒有可能採取降低減碳的目標或者是針對特定的企業暫緩收取碳費的方式，來協助這些企業達到轉型的可行措施？你也有提到一些專案補助的輔導，具體的內容是什麼？因為這個都會影響到如何協助企業，在這麼複雜的國際環境中還可以堅定的推進淨零轉型。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。整個中南部有很多的扣件業者，特別是螺絲的業者，他們輸歐都很擔心，不過跟委員報告，因為目前的扣件業者只有1家要收碳費，他交的話，大概只要交18萬。如果減碳他什麼都不做，繳18萬就好了，所以其實影響是很小的。","第二個，對他輸歐可能會有影響，可是目前CBAM的草案是50噸以上才要收，多數的企業，特別是中小企業，輸歐其實沒有那麼高，請中小企業可以放心，目前我們會加強跟歐盟聯繫。因為目前的扣件業者基本上只有1家要收而已，其他多數都不用收碳費，所以目前我們會積極來保障他們在歐盟的協商部分能夠銜接得上。"],["廖委員偉翔：針對這些出口去美國的企業呢？"],["彭部長啓明：目前出口美國的跟碳是比較沒有什麼影響，因為美國沒有美國的CBAM，但問題是我覺得產業在這波關稅的挑戰之下，它的轉型是最重要的，轉型有兩個，一個是綠色轉型，一個是數位轉型，這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起積極來合作，協助這種所謂會碳排的產業。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，其實我有看到你們今天的報告有寫到，你們去年7月1日有發布「溫室氣體減量額度交易拍賣及移轉管理辦法」，對不對？截至今年的4月11日止，有受理了63案的專案註冊申請，通過了16案。環境部在去年辦理5場次自願減量專案的說明會，共計908人參加。我就想你們今年預估要辦幾場，是不是可以擴大辦理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們正在研議，預計會有非常多場來跟產業溝通，中部也會進行，到時候也請委員多給我們指導……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，很好！"],["彭部長啓明：我們預計會有很多場去做產業面對面的溝通，因為有時候我們設想的問題不見得都可以符合每一個廠商的需求。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，對，一定要現場溝通，所以我今天的問題是這個部分有沒有預計新的一年要辦多少場？"],["彭部長啓明：非常多，目前我們自己隨便算，大概都30、40場以上。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，很好！謝謝。上一年是5場，既然有這樣子的成效，可以繼續再辦理下去，我們也會支持。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外，淨零轉型不僅是挑戰，也是機遇。根據2024年中華民國國家溫室氣體排放清冊報告，能源部門燃料的燃燒仍然是主要的排放來源，超過了50%，你今天的書面報告也有提到，石化燃料提高競爭力變成主流也是可以預見的，而且反過來說，臺灣經歷這麼多年這些再生能源、風電等等的，其實不僅可以看到未來是有極限的存在，也不可能達到真正取代所謂石化能源的目標。簡單來講，現在我們真的也是進度落後。剛剛有委員問到，有關非核家園這個神主牌，當然現在立法院在野黨很多立委也有提案要來修這個法，但我想要請問一下部長，這個過程中，你的態度是什麼？因為你剛剛講到有媒體錯誤報導、錯誤引用，是不是？就是……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：擷取部分，你說這個應該是在全社會防衛韌性委員會討論，不是在你的氣候變遷委員會討論。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：可是這個部分我也沒有很認同，我覺得氣候變遷委員會應該也要討論，因為這跟碳排也有很大的關係，所以我就想要問，部長，你自己的態度到底是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我當時在算淨零路徑，這的確是一個選項，但是我自己真的去算了之後，發現有很多可執行的難度問題，錢很多、核廢料……"],["廖委員偉翔：很多問題……"],["彭部長啓明：安全的問題、斷層的問題，這些都不是我可以解決的。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在包含美國有很多是支持，也質疑我們的執政團隊為什麼不選擇這個選項。沒關係！我只是想問你個人的表態，為什麼這個時候要問？就是你總是要表態你究竟認為這個是不是一個可行的方案，而且你支不支持，這個困難可以克服，包含修法也是一種困難。之前我質詢過，另外一位部長，他說我們先修法通過，但問題是修法通過了，你們會支持、會執行嗎？這就是我的問題，所以我希望部長在這個部分是不是可以表態一下？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我不是核能的主管機關，也不是能源主管機關，我們從淨零碳排的確是可以給一些意見，事實上……"],["廖委員偉翔：從淨零碳排的角度，你支持嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我認為這個其實有很多複雜的因素，例如過去的核電廠是沒有環評的，也不知道當時的地理狀況，現在到這個時間點，如果要做，要完整的去處理，以我們環評的經驗，這個花上幾年都跑不掉，所以基本上我會覺得這個有很多的困難、挑戰。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你認為你不支持？"],["彭部長啓明：我不是不支持，只是說真的要做起來很困難。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長不是不支持，只是認為過程中有很多挑戰？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，基本上，我是開放來看這個事情，任何好的能源、好的方式，我們都開放來討論，但是這的確有它歷史的共業，因為過去決定這個事情不是那麼民主的來執行，所以現在這個要做真的很辛苦。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長還是不願意表態支持不支持，如果立法院修法通過之後，你會支持嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我會遵照大院的建議，但是我也必須提醒委員，這個真的要做是非常辛苦的，因為臺灣沒有這樣的經驗過。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。最後一個問題，臺中有民眾響應環保回收，並遵照檢、刪、排三大步驟操作後，將手機回收，結果殊不知他回收的隔天開始，他的Apple Pay竟然被盜用，還盜刷了高鐵票，而且共73筆的交易，高達10萬元以上，重點是整個過程中，他沒有收到任何交易的簡訊通知。想要請教部長一下，民眾響應環保回收，即便已經遵照了步驟來操作，卻仍遭到盜刷及資料外洩的事情，是否會讓民眾不敢再響應這個環保活動？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我今天才知道這個事情，我們了解一下，再跟委員回復。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，麻煩部長了解一下，因為我想這個本來是善意的，但發生這個事，可能會影響到大家的回收意願。"],["彭部長啓明：好……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席（林委員淑芬代）：繼續開會。","下一位請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請副主委副主委請"},{"start":12.549,"end":37.919,"text":"部主委好我想本席要先肯定我們海委會的一個努力在我們月初的時候通過了海巡軍職薪資待遇跟國軍同步這樣去做提升讓我們海巡起薪也達到四萬塊我相信將近有九千位的集成士官兵來受惠這對於我們長年在第一線守護海域保護人民的海巡兄弟這個是一季的一個強心針"},{"start":39.62,"end":57.726,"text":"但是本席在這個地方也要特別提出來另一個急迫的一個問題就是說我們在去年警消還有移民署還有空勤這個都是有夜間危險的一個勤務的一個津貼"},{"start":59.666,"end":80.318,"text":"對於我們海巡弟兄來講的話,深夜為勞性的一個勤務的一個補貼啊,到現在還是空白。我不曉得你們的看法是怎麼樣啦。諸位已經講過說,你們說這個是未來的一個目標啦,但是這個聽起來就讓人就覺得,沒有負理由聽起來都蒼白又無力啦。"},{"start":81.098,"end":99.572,"text":"因為我都一直覺得說你台海局勢如果越緊張啊我們海巡面對了其實說實在話啦最緊張的就是共軍啦那不分之後又這樣子給你挑釁的話那你這個共軍或者中國的海軍或者那一些這個亂七八糟的船"},{"start":100.413,"end":120.732,"text":"他也不會只有挑白天來啊他晚上也會來啊所以你海巡的弟兄是不分白天跟黑夜在巡訪冒著這樣深夜的一個風浪頂著這個風險這個風險值極高的一個勤務啊卻沒有這個配套補貼的一個制度啊我覺得這個是實質的不對等布小林的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":121.598,"end":147.377,"text":"我就是跟委員報告其實管主委對這個部分就誠如他所說的啦其實他非常努力的在爭取啦那我們對同仁的權益尤其是剛剛提到的這些深夜圍牢的這個津貼的部分希望可以得到院裡面還有你們規劃了沒有我們有規劃有規劃可以請我們副主長報告委員非常感謝委員的關心那目前跟我們仁總在持續溝通協調中"},{"start":150.212,"end":167.771,"text":"這個其實海巡弟兄情務其實非常的一個繁重你說不只是守海 其實守海就是在守國他們同時肩負的你說邊境的一個巡防 海上的執法還有你看我們海邊那個地方 其實都是一些災難的一個救援多重的這樣的一個任務"},{"start":169.272,"end":196.693,"text":"海巡過去 海委會過去對人員這個權益相當於重視 我們都是去肯定但是我們希望這一塊盡速到位這個變成一個制度的一個黑影 這不對很努力的在爭取這一塊 跟人種要努力啦 好不好那我針對今天這麼多委員一直在提到我們今天這個海洋科技的一個資源整合的問題我相信你們也聽到很多"},{"start":198.238,"end":220.539,"text":"機關重疊的問題很多的計畫像我們今天在審這個立法的一個草案的一個立法的一個目的你最主要是強化國家整體海洋的科技的一個量能你像比如說你這個第三條裡面就列舉了海洋調查設施管理人才培育國際合作等七大項的一個業務但是我也注意到"},{"start":220.999,"end":240.856,"text":"你去看我們國家研究院其實早就設有台灣海洋科技研究中心那你說從它的主要任務從平台的建構到研究船的維運人才培育跟草案所提到的新中心業務其實這個都你看高度的重疊啦真的是高度的一個重疊啦所以我要請你做說明的就是說"},{"start":242.277,"end":263.151,"text":"為什麼已經在那個國衛院中心的情況之下我們還需要再設立一個新的國家海洋科技營運中心我們擔心的就是說你這個人力跟資源重複的一個配置的問題其實大家更擔心的啦我私底下在問啦更擔心的是你只是多了一個可以申請計畫的一個法人單位而已啦簡單說明"},{"start":265.92,"end":290.08,"text":"國海院下設的這幾個重新事實上都是比較政策研究型的這樣子的一些個單位那我們這一次的這個科技調查中心海洋的這個事實上他很重點在傳模實驗室跟未來整個國家調查團隊的營運管理功能還有這些專業的人才的培育跟留才這個是他會非常不同於現在國海院在處理的業務的面向"},{"start":291.069,"end":318.493,"text":"我們最擔心的是什麼呢其實你多了一個單位如果多一份力量那是好事啊可是你如果多了一個單位只是分散掉而已那其實就是無濟於事啦所以我真正想請教的啊你說以目前你看的就是說你看台灣目前涉及海洋的學術跟科研單位就那麼多海大中山城大還有這個國研院船舶中心各部位海洋計畫現在這一些啊各做各的啦"},{"start":319.989,"end":345.456,"text":"你互不相通甚至於互相在搶人搶船搶人搶資源這個常常大家是有耳聞的那就是說這次設立中心是不是真正具備有統籌協調的一個實權你未來研究船的一個調度實驗設施的維運還有資料的整合跟管理是不是能夠集中到這個中心來做一個平台那如果變成一個申請的窗口的話要怎麼做"},{"start":348.045,"end":372.707,"text":"我們最擔心的是這個啦你這科研的資源你不能各吹各的海風你中心設立以後應該是你應該是一個羅盤應該是一個舵手應該是一個整合者要不然大家小乖 大家像這個樣子而已這個要特別了 尤其你剛提到留財 要留住人才其實我們真的我們以現在你這個制度你可以留住人才嗎"},{"start":373.851,"end":398.127,"text":"你要留住人才就很簡單啊你第一個你的薪水是多少啊你的制度到底有沒有給他保障啊你的升遷你的升遷的制度是怎麼樣啊那這一些你很難看你們草創階段啊看得出來啊一個你看這個我們現在啊海洋科系的你畢業後 兩條路嘛 對吧做科研嘛 不然要走準嘛走準 你要三伏一戶多少錢你知道嗎 像萬海跟長榮的多少你知道嗎 十八萬"},{"start":402.734,"end":412.882,"text":"你這趴生要用多少來之後大家計畫做一做計畫結束 走掉了你說叫他繼續留下來繼續留下來他會覺得我也沒有升遷的管道"},{"start":413.872,"end":437.118,"text":"我薪水又不夠多大家學到經驗以後 酸這個對他們到底是有沒有吸引力也就是說我們目前科研體系根本沒有辦法提供相對應的流財的一個誘因所以說你要流財 育財 要生財你這個機制如果沒有先做好的話你這個報紙中心是人才的流動站"},{"start":438.118,"end":453.979,"text":"我們要把它變成是人採的基地培育的基地這樣才對啊所以我可以理解我們中興要採比較彈性的聘用制度但是如果說你只有這樣的短期契約沒有升遷的階梯甚至於沒有績效的獎勵薪資又缺乏彈性"},{"start":455.68,"end":477.671,"text":"這個常常會變成一個終極戰這個我提出來要特別特別我們海委會這邊要特別去留意你看你今年海洋科技專案補助計畫擴編到7500萬7500萬對學界是一個鼓舞但是研究計畫做完人走了成果也跟著流失了你補助這些都是短期的而已制度才是一個關鍵"},{"start":480.453,"end":493.127,"text":"這個副主委我是覺得剛好謝謝委員提醒我們都有往這個方面包括留財怎麼樣為了能夠把人才留在這個中心裡面對我就跟你說你情緒多你講不出來情緒多你講話好比你講都不會比的你只說要留財來 簡單做一個回應"},{"start":501.397,"end":526.143,"text":"我們現在目前是比照教育人員生活條例還有很多的獎金制度那船員的部分會比照一般外面的船員的一個薪資是啊 所以誘因在哪裡你們認為這個誘因就夠了我覺得誘因來講除了薪水以外還有包括它是屬於公法的行政法的我覺得相對來講它的一個工作上的穩定性確實也會吸引到一些造船相關系所的一些學生"},{"start":527.143,"end":554.022,"text":"因為我們有問過 我們有去做一些survey啦當然他們也期待到業界啦不過這個全職業本來都是大家人主要的選定啦那當然我們希望說我們這個制度 行李料 這個單位可以行李料可以去我們跟你這樣提出問題是叫你們要未雨綢繆啊不然你設計這個中心要重疊性的要幹什麼你涉及到如果說搶資源的啦說一艘船啦 你要決定要給誰啦"},{"start":555.37,"end":583.261,"text":"你到最後什麼人要處理你這個中心有沒有辦法做決定當最後的一個仲裁者所以我都覺得這個大家要誠實去做一個面對先把問題先提出來最後一個問題你中心可能會涉及到機敏性的資訊的問題如何去把關關鍵人員的一個禁用我看你們今天早上主委也去提到還有會這邊好像也有在中國有居住權的"},{"start":586.667,"end":603.724,"text":"你們現在清查出來是幾位清查有三位是在中國有居住證他是從小因為父親是台商所以從小就有居住證在那邊成長但是在招募我們志願士兵之後他都已經完成申請撤銷"},{"start":604.685,"end":622.035,"text":"那所以他現在從事的是士兵都是願意士兵路上的還是海上的暗巡路上暗巡那還好啊你像譬如說我們現在以現在來看的話研發單位或者艦艇或者情收或者直通或者新型的一個武器的"},{"start":622.495,"end":647.311,"text":"那你如果說在對讓這些中國有居住證的人我們的民眾還是心裡頭比較不安心啦所以國安部門以後這一塊啊你們說禁用人員你們要做考核 你要怎麼考核你是一個法人欸那是不是也比照跟國安單位你要不要考核 你不能跟人家說我調查你有沒有犯罪紀錄沒有做過三次 看有沒有犯罪的沒有 只能讓父子同盟起來對對的"},{"start":652.174,"end":673.979,"text":"這個就比較草率啦是不是也可以跟國安單位這個地方啊你們要好好的去研擬這個制度的一個創建剛開始的時候就要非常謹慎人員的經驗我們非常嚴謹那將來也會有特殊查核的部分我們會跟安全單位來合作請安全單位來協助這個都有限在這樣的規劃當中這個一定要規劃得非常謹慎啦好不好這不能開玩笑啦"},{"start":680.12,"end":698.651,"text":"那個夜間的危老人家 你說只有警察有 消防有 空情有 漁民署有真正每個晚上不分白天作業 晚上反而是最危險這個我們的整個海巡弟兄反而沒有很奇怪 趕快把它補起來好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時18分）謝謝主席。有請副主委。"],["主席：副主委請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副主委好。本席要先肯定海委會的努力，在月初的時候通過了海巡軍職薪資待遇，和國軍同步提升，讓海巡基層士官兵起薪也達到4萬塊，我相信將近有9,000位受惠，這對於長年在第一線守護海域、保護人民的海巡兄弟是一劑強心針。但是本席在此也要特別提出另一個急迫的問題，去年警消、移民署還有空勤，都有夜間危險勤務的津貼，對於海巡弟兄來講，深夜危勞性勤務補貼到現在還是空白，我不曉得你們的看法是怎麼樣？管主委已經講過這是未來的目標，但是沒有附理由聽起來都讓人覺得蒼白又無力。我一直覺得臺海局勢如果越緊張，說實在話，海巡最緊張的就是面對共軍，他們這樣不分晝夜的來挑釁，共軍、中國海軍或一些亂七八糟的船也不會只挑白天來，晚上也會來，所以海巡弟兄是不分白天跟黑夜在巡防，冒著深夜的風浪、頂著風險，是風險值極高的勤務，卻沒有配套補貼制度，我覺得這是實質不對等，不曉得你的看法怎麼樣？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，管主委對這個部分誠如他所說的，事實上他非常努力地在爭取，我們對同仁的權益，尤其是剛剛提到深夜危勞津貼的部分，希望可以得到院裡面還有……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們規劃了沒有？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們有規劃。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有規劃。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：可以請副署長報告。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，非常感謝委員的關心，目前跟人總在持續溝通協調中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：海巡弟兄的勤務其實非常的繁重，不只是守海，其實守海就是在守國，他們同時肩負邊境的巡防、海上的執法，還有你看海邊地方的一些災難救援，多重的任務性質，海委會過去對人員的權益相當重視，我們都肯定，但是我們希望這一塊儘速到位，變成一個制度的黑影這不對啊！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們現在很努力跟人總在爭取。"],["莊委員瑞雄：要努力，好不好？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有！"],["莊委員瑞雄：針對今天這麼多委員一直提到海洋科技資源整合的問題，我相信你們也聽到很多機關業務重疊的問題，很多的計畫像我們今天審草案立法的目的，最主要是強化國家整體海洋科技的量能，比如第三條就列舉海洋調查、設施管理、人才培育、國際合作等七大項業務，但是我也注意到國家實驗研究院早就設有台灣海洋科技研究中心，它的主要任務從平台的建構到研究船的維運及人才培育，跟草案所提到新的中心業務真的是高度重疊，所以我要請你說明，在已經有國研院台灣海洋科技研究中心的情況下，為什麼還需要再設立一個新的國家海洋科技營運中心？我們擔心的是人力跟資源重複配置的問題，其實大家更擔心只是多了一個可以申請計畫的法人單位而已。請簡單說明。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：國海院下設的幾個中心都是比較偏政策型的研究單位，我們的海洋科技營運中心事實上重點在船模實驗室跟未來整個國家調查船隊的營運管理功能，還有專業人才的培育跟留才，這是非常不同於現在國海院處理業務的面向。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們最擔心的是什麼呢？其實你多了一個單位，如果多一份力量那是好事，可是你如果多了一個單位，只是分散掉業務而已，那其實就是無濟於事。所以我真正想請教，以臺灣目前涉及海洋的學術跟科研單位就那麼多，海大、中山、成大，還有國研院、船舶中心、各部會海洋計畫，現在這一些都各做各的、互不相通，甚至於互相在搶人、搶船、搶資源，這個大家都時有耳聞，這一次設立中心是不是真正具備統籌協調的實權？未來研究船的調度、實驗設施的維運，還有資料的整合跟管理是不是能夠集中到營運中心來做一個平台？如果變成另一個申請的窗口，那又何必要做？我們最擔心的是這個。","科研的資源不能各吹各的海風，中心設立以後應該是一個羅盤、一個舵手、一個整合者，不然大家就會互相牽制、互相搶資源而已，這個要特別注意。尤其剛剛提到要留住人才，以你現在的制度可以留住人才嗎？你要留住人才很簡單，第一個，你的薪水是多少啊？你的制度到底有沒有給他保障？你的升遷制度是怎麼樣？這一些很難在你們草創階段看得出來。你看現在海洋科系畢業之後只有兩條路，做科研人員，不然就跑船。三副一個月多少錢，你知道嗎？像萬海跟長榮的薪水多少，你知道嗎？18萬啊！你這個單位打算要給人家多少？如果人來了之後大家計畫做一做，計畫結束後就走掉了，你說叫他繼續留下來，他會覺得繼續留下來也沒有升遷的管道，薪水又不夠多，大家學到經驗以後就走了。這對他們到底有沒有吸引力？我們目前的科研體系根本沒有辦法提供相對應留才的誘因，所以你要留才、育才、升才，這個機制如果沒有先做好的話，到最後你的中心是人才的流動站。我們要把它變成人才的基地、培育的基地這樣才對，所以我可以理解中心要採比較彈性的聘用制度，但是如果你只有這樣的短期契約，沒有升遷的階梯，甚至於沒有績效的獎勵，薪資又缺乏彈性，這個常常會變成一個中繼站。我提出來，海委會要特別留意，你看今年海洋科技專案補助計畫擴編到7,500萬，7,500萬對學界是一個鼓舞，但是研究計畫做完，人走了，成果也跟著流失了，你補助這些都是短期的而已，制度才是一個關鍵。副主委，我是覺得……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員提醒，我們都有往這個方面，包括留才，未來怎麼樣能夠把人才留在這個中心裡面。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就問你薪水多少，你說不出來，你要跟外面比，你沒辦法跟人家比的，你們只說要留才？來，簡單做一個回應。"],["陳院長璋玲：我們目前是比照教育人員任用條例，還有很多的獎金制度，船員的部分會比照一般外面船員的薪資。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以誘因在哪裡？你們認為這個誘因就夠了？"],["陳院長璋玲：我覺得誘因來講，除了薪水以外，還有包括它是屬於公法的行政法人，我覺得相對來講，它工作上的穩定性確實也會吸引一些造船相關系所的學生。因為我們有問過，我們有做一些survey，當然他們也期待到業界……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，你們聚集招攏人員，當他們學一學，叫他們做一做之後，人家學到功夫，大家就要跑了。"],["陳院長璋玲：不過職業本來都是大家自由的選擇，當然我們希望這個制度成立之後、這個單位可以成立之後，可以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們跟你這樣提出問題，是叫你們要未雨綢繆啊！不然你設計這個中心，重疊性的要幹什麼？如果涉及搶資源，譬如一艘船，決定要給誰、到最後什麼人要處理，你們這個中心有辦法去做決定，當最後的一個仲裁者？我覺得大家要誠實面對，我先把問題提出。","最後一個問題，你的中心可能會有涉及機敏性資訊的問題，如何把關關鍵人員的進用？我看今天早上主委也提到，海委會好像也有在中國有居住權的，你們有幾個？你們說你們有3個，你們現在清查出來是幾位？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，目前清查有3位在中國有居住證，他是因為父親是臺商，所以從小就有居住證，在那邊成長，但是在我們招募志願士兵之後，他都已經完成申請撤銷。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以他現在從事的是？"],["謝副署長慶欽：士兵，都是志願役士兵。"],["莊委員瑞雄：士兵？陸上的還是海上的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：岸巡，陸上的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：岸巡，那還好，譬如我們以現在來看的話，研發單位、或者艦艇、或者情蒐、或者資通、或者新型武器的，如果是這些在中國有居住證的人，我們民眾的心裡頭還是比較不安心，所以國安部門以後這一塊，你們說進用人員，你們要考核，你要怎麼考核？你是一個法人，是不是也比照國安單位？你要考核，不能只有調查有沒有犯罪紀錄、祖宗三代有沒有犯罪，不能只有這樣拿戶籍謄本來比對而已，這個就比較草率。是不是也可以比照國安單位？你們要好好研擬，制度的創建在剛開始的時候就要非常謹慎。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有，人員的進用，我們非常嚴謹，將來也會有特殊查核的部分，我們會跟安全單位合作，請安全單位來協助，現在都有這樣在規劃當中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我希望這個一定要規劃得非常謹慎，好不好？這不能開玩笑。","還有夜間的危勞津貼，你說只有警察有、消防有、空勤有、漁民署有，真正沒有在分白天、晚上作業，晚上反而是最危險的，我們整個海巡弟兄反而沒有，這很奇怪，趕快把它補起來，好不好？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們會非常努力，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員。","接下來請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a464700a6055551ab1db8644d80871ec8675aa7aeb25548b4994c373f717d6a0d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:16:11 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為關稅或其他因素延後上路的話或者是有更多後面 我們會跟進嘛"},{"start":495.431,"end":512.641,"text":"我們會密切注意國際的情勢但是也跟委員說得很清楚就是國際上並沒有一個國家因此因為關稅的問題來大轉彎那歐盟目前其實他過去一開始要法案宣布之後我們看到很多的訊息是會以後一年但是目前來看的話歐盟並沒有往後延"},{"start":513.061,"end":540.127,"text":"只是2027年2月才要可以開始購買這個碳的憑證所以目前來看的話我們目前當然啦不排除有一些國家進行大規模氣候變遷的整個政策的調整我們會滾動式的因為產業會擔心啦就是成本增加嘛 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副主委今天我們討論到國家海洋科技條例裡面的草案這是新的嘛因為是新的 現在來討論行政法律的問題現在我就是覺得修這個法"},{"start":39.62,"end":41.661,"text":"我是非常贊同,剛才我們董事會說責任歸屬在哪裡,我認為你慢慢走走因為我認為在這裡要討論的,就是可以啦,這個法則"},{"start":60.854,"end":62.818,"text":"真的有到位啦因為我覺得不要說開支付出的心血就看多少在這裡啦所以你對剛才"},{"start":74.939,"end":98.456,"text":"妳有再要補充什麼嗎 來 副主委謝謝委員 那的確還有會是責無旁貸啦我們也要把這個責任擔負起來那這個船模實驗室跟國家調查團隊可以建造完成之後整個國家的這種調查整個調查的量能啦還有國家關鍵技術的這個核心技術的一些提升等等的確就可以有非常大的一個注意"},{"start":99.537,"end":104.323,"text":"因為 副主委 我想要跟你講到這個問題因為本席也有提到在這裡面 我的意見可能跟你們的意見比較不一樣因為我裡面的條例的時候 我問我們的外國人"},{"start":116.988,"end":137.545,"text":"或是正經在中國的 或是澳門的港澳的都不能擔任我們裡面的黨官署副主席你認為本席會有多少希望可以這個法我提議的這個你覺得認為如何來"},{"start":140.385,"end":163.659,"text":"根本報告這個部分事實上我們在規劃未來的這個董監事還有一些執行人員的時候事實上也是朝這個方向朝這個方向對對對只是說因為我們的整個立法的體力我們有參照到行政法人法還有其他的行政法人的立法體力那未來我們會在那個安全查核的面向上面來阻絕這個部分對啦"},{"start":164.039,"end":179.747,"text":"因為我覺得你如果做檔案書裡面有很多重要的文句裡面的資料他都可以看 還可以了解因為我覺得我們要想這個法律學院也要讓他到位不是說想一想 如果不去做 不去解決也有可能會再去擔任"},{"start":193.234,"end":202.19,"text":"這個節目這是有可能的你如果沒有用心去了解的時候我說的這個問題有可能會產生"},{"start":205.322,"end":218.709,"text":"你覺得未來在執法裡面我們也會去做相關的規範那陸港澳人民本來就不可能進入我們這個國家海洋科技運營中心因為依照它本身的條例的規範有一些對啦 條例的規範 但是未來有可能我們要"},{"start":223.991,"end":227.633,"text":"不然我們就要想啦 不然想了以後 怎麼會這樣 這樣就太慢了在這裏面的編制當中 因為本省澳 當你帶你的資料來看的時候你有在營運中心裏面 有編制裏面的零元 一百的嘛一百的營運處裏面 占最快八十多 七十九個啦"},{"start":252.99,"end":257.473,"text":"未來你們有可能再去拯救這些人嗎?未來的營運狀況,初期我們現在就是100個人初期跟未來,我再問你,再說我是說你未來有可能還是不會再拯救營運狀態因為我就是本社會來問這個因為我們85年,今年要移送"},{"start":283.038,"end":290.244,"text":"是非常嚴峻,所以說你有想,因為要把行為做好,新的一定要有成果所以你沒煩惱,改成果你就要成果,我也支持支持這個遺症的時候,我們要相當的考慮,看要怎樣去解決這個問題,還要緊"},{"start":306.428,"end":309.832,"text":"不然你說 香港本來就不夠 香港不夠情感 這樣你設這個要做什麼 再多多設"},{"start":314.79,"end":322.775,"text":"我們都很精密的有去估算然後當然要讓這個中心能夠做非常好的營運所以人力需求上都有估算"},{"start":345.03,"end":350.275,"text":"這樣也非常不應該這樣做下去的行為也不會努力也不會好事尤其我們這個法規說要保護台灣的安全中華民國不是親切不負而已在這裡本身跟你說這個問題跟人員的情感"},{"start":368.021,"end":382.048,"text":"有外國籍的可以擔任什麼 去考慮 去了解這個問題因為我認為 你如果有資料的時候早期還要去給別人 更何況他可以擔任這個 早期才可以資料出來這樣就海融融了沒有讓這些人認知好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時11分）主席，請副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：你好，副主委。今天我們討論國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案，這是新的嘛，因為是新的才會現在討論行政法人的問題。對於修這個法，我是非常贊同，剛才我們的同事在問責任歸屬在哪裡，我覺得你有點害怕，我們在這裡討論，如果這個法通過了，真的有到位，我覺得不要說花錢，光是在這裡付出心血就看有多少了。對於剛才的質詢，你有要補充什麼嗎？副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員，的確海委會是責無旁貸，我們要把這個責任擔負起來，船模實驗室跟國家調查船隊建造完成之後，對於整個國家的調查量能，還有國家關鍵核心技術的提升等等，的確可以有非常大的助益。"],["王委員美惠：副主委，我為什麼會跟你說到這個問題，因為本席也有提案，但我的意見可能跟你們的意見比較不一樣，因為我所提的條例是希望外國籍或是曾經在中國、港、澳的都不能擔任裡面的董監事。副主委，對於本席的擔憂以及針對本法提議的部分，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，這個部分我們在規劃未來的董監事，還有一些執行人員的時候，事實上也是朝這個方向。"],["王委員美惠：喔，朝這個方向？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，只是因為整個立法體例，我們有參照到行政法人法，還有其他的行政法人立法體例，未來我們會在安全查核的面向上阻絕這個部分。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！因為董監事在裡面有很多重要資料都可以看得到，又可以了解。要修這個法就希望讓它比較到位，不是只有想一想，如果不去做、不去解決，也有可能會被納入擔任這個職務，這是有可能的，如果沒有用心去了解，我所說的這個問題是有可能會產生的，你覺得呢？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：未來在子法裡面，我們也會去做相關的規範，陸港澳人民本來就不可能進入我們國家海洋科技營運中心，因為依照它本身條例的規範……"],["王委員美惠：對，條例的規範，不過我們要在事情發生前就先設想，不要在事情發生之後才說怎麼會這樣，這樣就太慢了。在這個編制當中，因為本席後來有索取你們的資料來看，營運中心編制的人員共計100人，其中營運處就占79人，將近80人，未來你們有可能再去增加人員嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：會視未來的營運狀況，初期現在就是100人。"],["王委員美惠：那我就多問、多講了，我是說你未來有沒有可能再增加？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：要視營運狀態跟需求狀況。"],["王委員美惠：營運狀態。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對。"],["王委員美惠：副主委，本席為何要問這個？因為今年審115年的預算非常的嚴峻，要把工作做好又是新的營運中心，一定要增加人力，所以你不用擔心，該增加就要增加，我們也會支持，只是在審核預算的時候要多加考量如何解決人力問題比較重要，不然本來人力就不夠又不敢增加，這樣新設立營運中心要幹嘛，不就多設立了。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們都有很精密的估算，當然要讓營運中心能夠有非常好的營運，所以人力需求上都有估算。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得業務當中的任何事情，不要說你們本來要10個人，現在因為各界在關注提出一些問題，你們不但沒有增加人力，還讓差不多需要15人的工作叫10人來做，樣也非常不應該，這樣工作起來也不會有效率、也沒辦法做得好，尤其我們立法目的是要保護臺灣、中華民國的安全，不是隨隨便便設立而已。所以本席跟你說的人員增加以及外國籍人員可以擔任怎樣的職務，你們要認真去了解、去考慮這個問題，因為我覺得你們的重要資料都可能被竊取了，更何況如果讓他擔任職務，他伺機將資料竊取出來，這樣就糟糕了！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：不會，我們沒有讓這些人任職，謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員義川代）：謝謝王美惠委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4d6b863773b132de9320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b49016580a9b45654d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:04:08 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今天請國務院長來 我請這個副主委跟這個請副主委這個院長你要講好對著院長沒有啦 國海院的院長要跟國海院的國海院的陳院長委員好"},{"start":29.912,"end":47.717,"text":"副主委跟陳院長,其實我們台灣現在有很多關於海洋研究的單位,也在各個部會裡面其實都有。我們今天成立這個,我也是支持,但我有一個問題想要請教一下。"},{"start":49.212,"end":71.718,"text":"我們現在各個部會有沒有業務重疊的有沒有需要整編的那如何去跨部會的協調然後能夠用成更好的一個協調機制不要同樣一件事情兩個單位在做花兩倍的錢我覺得我今天第一個重點想要請教"},{"start":75.106,"end":92.955,"text":"這個部分事實上我們也特別注意也謝謝委員關心那資源不會重置啦那各個單位他有各自的一個分工那未來我們海委會跟國海院還有這個科研中心我們要做的一件事情還包括整合就是剛剛委員提到的不要重置資源"},{"start":93.215,"end":111.259,"text":"所以我們也會去整合相關的不管是調查船的這些船隊或者是船模實驗室我們去結合現行各個大學已經有的一些實驗然後把它做成一個船模實驗的國家隊等等這個我們都有在規劃然後會去注意到說不要資源重置好 那跨部會誰主導跨部會誰主導"},{"start":119.198,"end":136.133,"text":"我們有主動譬如說恰恰國科會啦或者是像農業部水事所他們現在也有一些研究船然後交通部的部分那還有會因為我們的職責上面統籌協調整合所有的海洋政策事務所以我們都主動的在做這些事情不不不你回答我一個問題誰主導"},{"start":144.261,"end":157.749,"text":"不是嘛 我剛剛的問題啊 各部會都有啊然後有很多都是重複的那你們剛剛回答我說你們跨部會你們都有去協調啊然後不要重複啊 不要連教育部 連學校都有那我只問一個問題啊誰去主導這個"},{"start":162.572,"end":173.717,"text":"不然你們都跟我說跨部會 我也知道啊 我也在行政機關十幾年啊跨部會大家都來啊到最後沒有一個人負責沒有一個人去處理事情等於是白談"},{"start":176.753,"end":200.561,"text":"就是當然海委會會希望來主導這整個的整合協調但是如果機關之間有一些業務面向上面的分工有什麼需要行政院來協助的部分我們也會請行政院來協助不不不 副主委我剛問的就是我也不想讓你為難你剛就想說你也需要你主導就我所知"},{"start":202,"end":215.668,"text":"目前就是沒有一個部會可以去主導啦也沒有一個部會可以去協調啦重點是在這嘛 是不是啊人來扮演這個角色不不不 你要回答我的問題啊"},{"start":217.36,"end":236.639,"text":"有一些這樣的問題就在那裡好啦好啦 你也不方便講啦 我也知道啦但我們都很支持這樣這些研究這些啊我也先說我是支持啊 但我們不能讓這個事情一拖再拖啦我們不能讓這個事情永遠在這邊嘛 對不對"},{"start":238.961,"end":260.505,"text":"我們立法委員 我們立法院是要監督你們行政機關預算的執行的什麼的 對不對那我們發現了這個問題啊那你今天有這麼多 我們又成立了這個 又成立了什麼的我覺得就像你說的如果你海委會 你想說你要主導要主導的人要扛責"},{"start":262.752,"end":288.057,"text":"責任跟權力是要的那你們可以主動去跟行政院啊對不對去跟院長報告啊就這幾個我們大家拿出來盤點哪些跟海委會的業務是很直接的你們願意負全部的責任那你們也願意去主導我覺得應該要這樣子解決這一個很混雜的問題而且這有什麼好處"},{"start":289.551,"end":312.923,"text":"很多的東西 很多的 如果你們可以這樣子的話有的預算可以不用多編有的人員可以不用那麼多然後方向明確往前走不是這個單位我往右研究 這個單位我往左研究我往南 往東 到時候連彙整都沒有辦法彙整你們現在是不是遇到這個問題"},{"start":317.544,"end":335.832,"text":"你回答我的問題就好 你們現在是不是遇到這個問題有一些整合上的問題需要解決你一直都避重就輕啦 我也不想為難你啦你們確實就是遇到這個問題嘛那就是遇到問題 我現在就開解方給你你要去這樣做啦 那你們"},{"start":337.621,"end":352.679,"text":"海委會 我也認為海委會應該要負起這個整個海洋計畫 海洋研究 海洋保育海洋的未來的規劃什麼的這個本來我認為就是海委會應該要的責任那你其他的部會"},{"start":354.22,"end":377.952,"text":"大家要相互配合我說你們的主導不是叫你們威權然後說你們怎樣怎樣都要聽你們的我那個意思是總要有一個總負責的人一個總負責的然後大家去然後有這樣的整合包括明年的預算的編列大家就可以透過這個整合的會議這樣大家去看預算不要重複編列然後放在重點"},{"start":379.013,"end":389.308,"text":"然後你們那個騎乘這樣子規劃才要這樣出來啊這樣這一點可不可以做到啦我們會往這個方向來演繹也跟行政院來做報告你們會往這個方向來演繹"},{"start":393.598,"end":419.836,"text":"我不反對啦但我覺得啦應該要負責任的說就是要這樣子走那你沒有辦法決定回去跟你們主委報告然後跟院長報告我覺得要這樣啦這樣才能整合這個已經好多年了都沒有處理啦可以嗎報告我剛剛提到就說希望還有要擔起這樣的角色跟責任好啦你就這樣做啦好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":366,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時4分）我請副主委跟院長。"],["主席：請副主委。你要講好是哪一個院長？"],["張委員宏陸：沒有啦，國海院的院長，這裡只有國海院的院長。"],["主席：國海院陳院長。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委跟陳院長，其實臺灣現在有很多關於海洋研究的單位，在各個部會裡面都有，我們今天成立這個，我也是支持啦，但我有一個問題想要請教一下，我們現在各個部會跟這樣有沒有業務重疊的？有沒有需要整編的？如何跨部會協調，然後能夠用成一個更好的協調機制？不要同樣一件事情兩個單位在做，花兩倍的錢。這是我今天第一個重點想要請教的。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我跟委員報告，這個部分事實上我們也特別注意，也謝謝委員關心，資源不會重置，各個單位有各自的分工，未來我們海委會跟國海院還有這個科技營運中心要做的一件事情還包括整合，就是剛剛委員提到的不要重置資源，所以我們也會去整合相關的，不管是調查船這些船隊，或者是船模實驗室，我們去結合現行各個大學已經有的一些實驗，然後把它做成一個船模實驗國家隊等等，這個我們都有在規劃，也會注意到不要資源重置。"],["張委員宏陸：好，那跨部會誰主導？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跨部會？"],["張委員宏陸：誰主導？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們有主動，譬如說洽國科會，或者是農業部水試所他們現在也有一些研究船，然後交通部的部分。至於海委會，因為我們的職責上統籌協調整合所有海洋政策事務，所以我們都主動在做這些事情。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不、不，你回答我一個問題，誰主導？"],["陳院長璋玲：是主導調查船，還是……"],["張委員宏陸：不是嘛，我剛剛的問題啊，各部會都有，然後有很多都是重複的，你們剛剛回答我說跨部會你們都有去協調，然後不要重複，連教育部、連學校都有，那我只問一個問題，誰去主導這個？不然你們都跟我說跨部會，我也知道啊！我也在行政機關十幾年，跨部會大家都來，到最後沒有一個人負責，沒有一個人去處理事情，等於是白談！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：當然海委會會希望主導這整個整合協調，但是如果機關之間有一些業務面向上的分工，有什麼需要行政院協助的部分，我們也會請行政院協助。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，副主委，我剛剛問的就是……我也不想讓你為難，你剛剛說你也希望你主導，但就我所知，目前就是沒有一個部會可以去主導啦！也沒有一個部會可以去協調啦！重點是在這嘛！是不是啊？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：要有人來扮演這個角色。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，你要回答我的問題啊！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有一些這樣的問題存在沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好啦！你也不方便講，我也知道啦！但我們都很支持這些研究，我先說我是支持，但我們不能讓這個事情一拖再拖，我們不能讓這個事情永遠在這邊嘛！對不對？我們立法委員、我們立法院是要監督你們行政機關的預算執行，對不對？我們發現了這個問題，今天有這麼多，我們又成立了這個、又成立了什麼，我覺得就像你說的，如果海委會想要主導，要主導的人就要扛責，責任跟權力是要的，那你們可以主動去跟行政院院長報告啊！就這幾個大家拿出來盤點，哪些跟海委會的業務是很直接的，你們願意負全部的責任，你們也願意去主導，我覺得應該要這樣子解決這一個很混雜的問題，而且這有什麼好處？很多事情如果你們可以這樣子的話，有的預算可以不用多編，有的人員可以不用那麼多，然後方向明確往前走，不是這個單位往右研究、這個單位往左研究、往南、往東，到時候連彙整都沒有辦法彙整。你們現在是不是遇到這個問題？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：……解決這些問題。"],["張委員宏陸：你回答我的問題就好，你們現在是不是遇到這個問題？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有一些整合上的問題需要解決。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，你一直都避重就輕，我也不想為難你，你們確實就是遇到這個問題嘛！既然遇到問題，我現在就開解方給你，你要去這樣做啦！我也認為你們海委會應該要負起整個海洋計畫、海洋研究、海洋保育、海洋未來的規劃什麼的，我認為這個本來就是海委會應該要負的責任，其他的部會大家要相互配合。我說你們的主導不是叫你們威權，然後要人家怎樣、怎樣，都要聽你們的，我那個意思是總要有一個總負責的人，有一個總負責的，有這樣的整合，包括明年的預算編列，大家就可以透過這個整合的會議，大家去看預算不要重複編列，然後放在重點，你們那個期程這樣子規劃才要這樣出來啊！這一點可不可以做到？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員，我們會往這個方向研議，也跟行政院報告。"],["張委員宏陸：你們會往這個方向研議，我不反對啦！但我覺得應該要負責任的說，就是要這樣子走！你沒有辦法決定，回去跟你們主委報告，然後跟院長報告，我覺得要這樣啦！這樣才能整合，這個已經好多年了，都沒有處理啦！可以嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，我剛剛提的就是希望海委會要擔起這樣的角色跟責任，對。"],["張委員宏陸：好啦！你就這樣做啦！謝謝。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝我們最帥的張宏陸委員。","接下來請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a47efa7ce7a2057aa2320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b49c178a6095f115eaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:55:49 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謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請海委會好 請副主委"},{"start":23.484,"end":50.336,"text":"我們副主委好首先請教一下今天我們討論的是有關於這個國家海洋科技中心的這個相關的一個草案根據海委會的報告顯示國家海洋科技營運中心的主要目標是提升我國海洋科技能力厚植海洋科技研究能量並強化我國海域基礎資訊的掌握那我想要請教我們副主委"},{"start":51.076,"end":68.982,"text":"那其實在過去我們國家也發花了很多的人民的預算來去做相關我們國家海洋的一些的這個硬體的一些設置比如說現在預算中心又特別指出我們國海院有一個國家船模實驗多功能水槽建置計畫"},{"start":70.262,"end":98.891,"text":"那這個相關的計畫我們也可以看到過去的經費大概是31億然後因為整個原物料上漲的跟一些外部的因素增加成44億那我們現在有點擔心的是這個計畫主要就是希望大家剛剛很多委員都有提到希望我們國家未來在一些船的一些試驗上可以不用到國外去在台灣就可以使用就可以完成以免一些重要的機密外洩"},{"start":99.631,"end":108.172,"text":"那我想要請教一下我們這個預算已經增加了大概13億左右那我們現在整體的計畫這個預算中心很擔心其實是不是有比較慢的一個情形"},{"start":112.845,"end":130.836,"text":"目前因為這兩個計畫主要是公建計畫就是調查船的部分是一二到我先請教那個國家船模實驗室現在目前的進度到多少現在大概6點多%因為現在主要是土建6點多%主要是因為土建因為我們是蓋在興達港"},{"start":135.399,"end":149.426,"text":"13% 因為今年主要是土建的部分因為土建因為他剛在新達港那新達港那邊附近他比較靠海所以事實上當時的一個工程工程上是比較複雜一點所以有耽誤嗎現在目前是沒有 陸期進行那預期現在完成13%未來預計什麼時候會完工預計是115年 今年116116年116年會完成預計116年"},{"start":159.011,"end":179.923,"text":"好 那我再請教 其實大家希望說人民納稅錢要用在刀口上那做這個實驗室主要原因就是因為現在國內有四座船艦的船模的實驗水槽沒有辦法提供完整的船模實驗項目那我們現在我們國海院所做的這一個船模的實驗室未來是可以"},{"start":180.643,"end":197.33,"text":"可以做我們的整整完整的船模的實驗嗎對跟我們報告他這個可以做到完整的就是包括那個奈海性能的水槽啦還有迴旋臂的水槽等等這個現在都目前國內是沒有的對所以我們會把整體完整性的一個實驗這樣子實驗室建造起來"},{"start":198.371,"end":209.345,"text":"好那希望說大家可以再努力把這個進度給趕上那第二個就是講到的有關於這個大家重視的這個調查船的部分其實經費也從這個經費也增加了蠻多總經費到31億那其實"},{"start":216.575,"end":233.046,"text":"預算中心也特別提說其實過去來講進度非常的緩慢尤其在112年的時候執行率只有23%然後而且在113年的時候的預算都是集中在年底才執行那我可不可以請教一下我們現在這些調查船海洋調查船的進度有趕上嗎"},{"start":235.414,"end":251.101,"text":"目前有 現在我們釣蝦船主要會有三艘那第一艘跟第二艘100噸跟300噸已經去年開工了 現在正在興建當中那4000噸的部分因為我們今年有剛通過這個變更計畫所以事實上經費又在增加了因為主要是因為那個現在都是屬於"},{"start":252.081,"end":268.056,"text":"造船都是屬於賣方的市場還有包括整個物價上揚所以這次也很謝謝就是已經有通過第二次變更那我們一季四千噸的部分今年算是我們的重頭戲啦四千噸最大這一艘嘛對 最大這一艘希望能夠在今年年底能夠完成發包今年完成發包對 希望"},{"start":268.976,"end":286.786,"text":"那請問一下有沒有整個工程進度有拖延的情況目前四千噸因為還沒嘛那一百噸跟三百噸目前是沒有的現在是如期在興建當中那大概什麼時候會完成一百三百噸大概一百噸跟三百噸是一百一一五年的年底完工然後四千噸的部分是一一八年完工"},{"start":288.043,"end":309.028,"text":"118年完工嗎對是現在好那也拜託因為這都我相信人民都很期待那接下來我就要請教就是有關於今天的草案有關的國家海洋營運中心的設置那因為我認為現在目前的設置我們很多委員對於整個草案為什麼要設置都有相當多的疑問那我們當然希望說有需要就必須要設置"},{"start":309.989,"end":321.129,"text":"可是我從現在海委會的報告裡面沒有看到說我們這個海洋科技營運中心設置整體所要的這些經費大概需要多少經費跟人力好像目前都好像沒有規劃"},{"start":322.992,"end":350.472,"text":"跟委員報告他必須要用行政法人的原因事實上就是我們的包括這些人才的專業性非常的高然後未來的營運的效能等等比較有彈性啦那我們的這個經費的部分呢我們目前是一估從一百一十六一百明年是一五一五我們大概需要經費大概是六千萬左右然後一六會到三億然後一七跟一八大概三點六一目前是有一個經費的估算對"},{"start":351.734,"end":354.591,"text":"那人員的部分也有一些禁用的這樣子的規劃"},{"start":355.66,"end":383.203,"text":"好 就是說其實本席想要請教我們海委會的部分就是說現在我們所有海洋的整個強化韌性的部分我們做了這麼多的東西所以不管從現在的建造以及未來人力的配置以及我們這個營運中心的整個建造跟未來人力的配置的部分我覺得就是人才的培育的部分其實是本席所擔心的我們到底有沒有那麼多的經費有沒有那麼多人力的培育"},{"start":384.884,"end":406.923,"text":"以及未來我們怎麼樣去執行這些方面本席還是希望說是不是可以提供一個完整的計畫你現在有需要這麼多的經費這麼多的人力那我們台灣現在有這麼多的人力來去做比如說未來調查船的行駛的調查或者是說未來我們整個營運中心有這麼多的人力可以來執行這樣的東西嗎你們現在有辦法回答嗎"},{"start":408.94,"end":436.462,"text":"因為這個經費都很多 人力都很多報告委員 事實上我們現在就開始有在做人力培訓了那我們之前就是大概有12個種子教師針對船母的 因為船母它非常的複雜包括整個一些精密儀器的一些操作所以事實上我們已經有完成一部分的國內跟國外的一個培訓那這個是為了我們的種子部隊啦那當然我們也是希望說委員能夠支持讓我們這個行政法能夠成立的話讓我們能夠透過預算裡面能夠如期來來招聘更多專業的人才"},{"start":437.563,"end":459.31,"text":"好那最後一個問題有時間的關係其實我們現在做這麼多的經費建造未來人力的培訓跟未來營運其實我們認為要在這個很重要就是希望說國家的安全的機密不要外洩那我想一下這些人才培訓的有這個安全考核是依照什麼規定來執行未來可以確保國家機密跟技術不會外洩有沒有相關的"},{"start":459.83,"end":487.508,"text":"海委會會建立這個安全查核的機制會有包括一般性的查核跟特殊的這個查核那這個監督的機制要將來會在執法裡面來訂定所以目前就是說現在這個部分我們現在草案裡面是沒有看到相關的對 那是授權海委會監督機關來訂定好 那所以拜託未來海委會的部分的時候我們花了那麼多錢所以花了那麼多人力所以未來整個保密的機制我也希望說海委會可以重視我注意到這些好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時55分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，大家早，有請海委會。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員早。"],["張委員智倫：副主委好。首先請教一下，今天我們討論有關於國家海洋科技中心相關的草案，根據海委會的報告顯示，國家海洋科技營運中心的主要目標是提升我國海洋科技能力，厚植海洋科技研究能量，並強化我國海域基礎資訊的掌握。我想請教副主委，其實在過去，我們國家也花了很多人民的預算，設置國家海洋相關的一些硬體。比如說現在預算中心又特別指出，我們國海院有一個「國家船模實驗室多功能水槽建置計畫」，從這個相關的計畫，我們也可以看到過去的經費大概是三十一億，然後因為整個原物料上漲跟一些外部的因素，增加成44億。我們現在有點擔心的是，這個計畫，剛剛很多委員都有提到，主要就是希望我們國家未來在一些船的試驗上可以不用到國外去，在臺灣就可以使用，就可以完成，以免一些重要的機密外洩。我想要請教，這個預算已經增加了大概十三億左右，而我們現在整體的計畫，預算中心很擔心是不是有比較慢的情形。"],["陳院長璋玲：目前這兩個計畫主要是公建計畫，調查船的部分是112到118……"],["張委員智倫：我先請教國家船模實驗室目前的進度到多少？"],["陳院長璋玲：大概百分之六點多，因為現在主要是土建……"],["張委員智倫：百分之六點多？"],["陳院長璋玲：百分之六點多，主要在土建，因為我們是蓋在興達港……不好意思，是13%。"],["張委員智倫：13%？"],["陳院長璋玲：今年主要是土建的部分，因為土建蓋在興達港，而興達港附近比較靠海，事實上當時的工程是比較複雜一點。"],["張委員智倫：所以有耽誤嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：目前是沒有，如期進行。"],["張委員智倫：現在完成13%，未來預計什麼時候會完工？"],["陳院長璋玲：預計是116年。"],["張委員智倫：116年？116年會完成嘛？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：預計116年，對。"],["張委員智倫：好，我再請教，其實大家希望人民的納稅錢要用在刀口上，做這個實驗室主要原因，就是現在國內有4座船模的實驗水槽皆沒有辦法提供完整的船模實驗項目嘛！現在國海院所做的船模實驗室，未來可以做完整船模的實驗嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，跟委員報告，它可以做到完整的，包括耐海性能的水槽，還有迴旋臂的水槽等等，這個目前國內是沒有的，所以我們會把整體、完整性的實驗室建造起來。"],["張委員智倫：好，希望大家可以再努力，把進度給趕上。","第二個，關於大家重視的調查船的部分，經費也增加了蠻多，總經費到31億，其實預算中心也特別提，過去進度非常緩慢，尤其在112年的時候，執行率只有23%，而且在113年時的預算都是集中在年底才執行。我可不可以請教，我們現在這些海洋調查船的進度有趕上嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：目前有，現在我們調查船主要會有3艘，第1艘跟第2艘即100噸跟300噸的去年已經開工了，現在正在興建當中，至於4,000噸的部分，因為我們今年剛剛通過變更計畫，所以經費又再增加了，主要因為現在造船都是屬於賣方的市場，還有包括整個物價上揚，所以這次也很謝謝已經通過第二次變更。我們預計4,000噸的部分，今年算是我們的重頭戲，希望今年能夠如期……"],["張委員智倫：4,000噸是最大這一艘嘛？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，最大這一艘，希望能夠在今年年底完成發包。"],["張委員智倫：今年完成發包？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，希望。"],["張委員智倫：請問一下，整個工程進度有沒有拖延的情況？"],["陳院長璋玲：4,000噸是因為還沒嘛，而100噸跟300噸目前沒有拖延，現在如期在興建當中。"],["張委員智倫：大概什麼時候會完成？"],["陳院長璋玲：100噸跟300噸，大概是……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：100噸跟300噸是在115年的年底完工，然後4,000噸的部分是118年完工。"],["張委員智倫：118年完工？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，4,000噸。"],["張委員智倫：好，那也拜託，因為我相信人民都很期待。","接下來我就要請教今天的國家海洋營運中心設置條例草案。我認為目前設置……我們很多委員對於整個草案為什麼要設置都有相當多的疑問啦！我們當然希望有需要就必須要設置，可是我從現在海委會的報告裡面，沒有看到我們海洋科技營運中心設置整體所要的這些經費，大概需要多少的經費跟人力，目前好像都沒有規劃喔！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，它必須要用行政法人的原因，事實上就是因為這些人才的專業性非常高，然後未來營運的效能等等，會比較有彈性啦！經費的部分，我們目前預估明（115）年需要的經費大概是六千萬左右，然後116年會到3億，然後117年跟118年大概3.6億，所以是有一個經費的估算，對人員的部分也有一些進用的規劃。"],["張委員智倫：好，其實本席想要請教海委會，現在我們所有海洋強化韌性的部分，我們做這麼多的東西，不管從現在的建造以及未來人力的配置，以及我們營運中心整個建造跟未來人力的配置的部分，人才培育其實是本席擔心的。我們到底有沒有那麼多的經費，有沒有那麼多的人力來培育？以及未來我們怎麼樣去執行？這些方面本席還是希望是不是可以提供一個完整的計畫？你現在需要這麼多的經費、這麼多的人力，臺灣現在有這麼多人力做未來調查船行駛的調查，或者是未來整個營運中心嗎？會有這麼多人力來執行這樣的東西嗎？你們現在有辦法回答嗎？因為這個經費都很多、人力都很多。"],["陳院長璋玲：報告委員，事實上我們現在就開始在做人力培訓了，我們之前針對船模的部分大概有12個種子教師，因為船模非常的複雜，包括整個精密儀器的一些操作，所以事實上我們已經有完成一部分國內跟國外的培訓，這個是為了我們的種子部隊啦！當然，我們也希望委員能夠支持，讓我們行政法人能夠成立，讓我們透過預算能夠如期招聘更多專業的人才。"],["張委員智倫：好。最後一個問題，時間的關係，現在有這麼多的經費用在建造、未來人力的培訓跟未來的營運，我們認為很重要的前提，就是希望國家安全機密不要外洩嘛！請問這些人才培訓的安全考核是依照什麼規定來執行的？未來才可以確保國家機密跟技術不會外洩。有沒有相關的、已經制定的機制？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：之後會建立安全查核機制，會有包括一般性的查核跟特殊的查核，這個監督的機制，將來會在子法裡面來訂定。"],["張委員智倫：所以目前這個部分，我們現在的草案裡面沒有看到相關的……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，它是授權海委會監督機關來訂定。"],["張委員智倫：拜託海委會，我們花了那麼多錢，花了那麼多人力，未來整個保密的機制，我也希望海委會可以重視。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們有注意到這些。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：謝謝張智倫委員。","接下來請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a49ebbd1eab8999843320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b49e33ea871862e03655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:37:32 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我們現在請副主委有請副主委委員早"},{"start":23.255,"end":45.827,"text":"副主委早我們今天就這個國家海洋科技的營運中心設置條例我們要進行審查了那這個剛才前面幾位委員也大概針對這個我們的這個設置這樣子行政法人的相關的這些未來的權責等等有跟你進行過溝通那我這裡大概要請問就是說我們現在你能不能說明一下我們過去這樣子這麼多年"},{"start":46.747,"end":53.888,"text":"我們現在為什麼我們海委會認為我們營運中心有設置的急迫性"},{"start":55.37,"end":80.295,"text":"急迫性在哪裡?過去我們是怎麼做的?為什麼現在有急迫性?設置之後跟現在有哪些改變?主要是國海院有兩個中長城的計畫一個是國家船模實驗室的建造,一個是調查船一個是調查船,一個是船模實驗室這兩項功能我們現在還沒有國家營運中心我們現在沒有這樣的船模實驗室我們現在也沒有這樣的調查船那我們現在是怎麼做的?"},{"start":81.235,"end":110.297,"text":"我們目前的船模實驗沒有那麼完整就是在一些學校裡面有船模實驗但是我們這一次建造的更完整包括安奈海的性能水槽我們現在沒有營運這個國家的這個調查船那我們現在這些海洋資訊的這些調查是怎麼做的我們目前還是有像國科會的那個實驗院的還是有一些科研船但是我們這一次是全海域的基礎調查的這樣子的我們現在沒有做全海域的基礎調查嗎有但是還是會受到一些限制現在是怎麼做的"},{"start":111.198,"end":130.307,"text":"現在沒有營運中心是怎麼做的你這個要講我們才知道說那為什麼設置現在要設置這個行政法人是必須的報告委員那現在的話就是有一些預算那由國海院在執行那像我們目前執行的一個方式通常就是以委辦的方式委辦對委辦的方式對事實上我們現在是委辦對是委辦的方式委誰辦現在大多數委誰辦"},{"start":132.568,"end":161.196,"text":"有些是測量公司有些是學術單位國內的還是國際的國內的那如果說是屬於要租船的話那租船的話大概會有一些科業船也可以來租用那如果說是屬於一些測會的話有時候有一些是私人的一些測會公司那如果我們未來有這個調查船的話那海委會本身就可以發揮這樣子的一個功能我覺得這個要講這個我們要對外說明清楚為什麼我們現在要做這個船舶實驗室是重要的為什麼我們現在要做國家級的自己的這個全海域的調查船這個是重要的"},{"start":161.796,"end":178.6,"text":"這個是重要的這個前提成立我們才要我們才來說那接下來這要怎麼營運要怎麼營運之後我們才說這營運到底我們是要用公部門來營運還是用行政法人來營運對不對所以這個部分這個要先講清楚那我們現在要成立這樣子的營運中心"},{"start":183.038,"end":210.578,"text":"來看看其他國際的國家他們有沒有做我們現在目前沒有我們國家一直過去到現在一直沒有我們現在看看國外的這些例子包括美國美國他們有一個國家科學技術政策辦公室下面設了一個國家科學技術小組委員會所以美國他是用公部門來營運這些事情美國用公部門英國也是公部門"},{"start":211.778,"end":223.478,"text":"英國他設置一個科學技術委員會下面設一個海洋科學協調委員會他還是屬於公部門那跟我們條件最接近 鄰近我們的日本日本他"},{"start":224.704,"end":249.458,"text":"原本也是設立公部門,原本在1971年就設置了一個海洋科學技術中心但他們在2004年把這樣的公部門的海洋科學技術中心他們把它改成行政法人在2004年提早我們21年的時間設立了這樣的行政法人這個行政法人叫做海洋地球科學技術振興機構這樣的行政法人"},{"start":253.257,"end":278.068,"text":"那所以這個我們也看剛剛在講這個急迫性我們現在看其他國家在日本他們的這些這樣子的大型的海洋調查船日本現在目前有幾艘你們知道嗎大型的有七艘大型的有七艘中國有幾艘中國的大概六十艘以上六十艘以上那我們台灣呢"},{"start":279.249,"end":295.933,"text":"目前沒有嗎 台灣現在目前就是以科學服務的 科研服務的話有海野 國科會下面有4艘國科會下面有4艘 還有農業服務也有那我們現在急迫 我們現在在進行我們已經進行招標 現在在做的是幾噸的300 我們現在100噸 300 100跟300 未來還有4000未來有4000我現在"},{"start":303.643,"end":332.282,"text":"這個部分我馬上跟你討論但我在這個之前我們回到前面的問題剛才其他委員也有問到啦齁我們現在有國海院剛剛很多人有關心我們現在目前的這個這個國海院跟我們的這個營運未來要設置的營運中心他的全責我看起來全責大致上是重疊真正特殊的就是船舶實驗室跟調查船的營運嘛對不對只有這兩個其他大部分是特殊那我想請問一下副主委我們現在這個我們目前的這個國海院"},{"start":333.203,"end":349.969,"text":"他是我們海委會下屬的三級機關嗎?對,他的依據是什麼?海委會組織條例第幾條?國海院的組織法第幾條?第一條第一條的內容是什麼?"},{"start":363.755,"end":389.751,"text":"剛剛講你們海委會的組織法海委會組織法的這個第五條裡面本會之次級機關沒有國海沒有國海院只有兩個一個海巡署一個海洋保育署你現在講這個這個國家海洋研究院組織法的第一條他說海洋委員會為辦理海洋政策規劃海洋資源交入海洋沒有提到我們海委會啊"},{"start":394.124,"end":402.416,"text":"海洋委員會未辦理所以他是我們的三級機關嗎是嗎我們一直都這樣定位我知道你們是這樣定位的但是我們的組織辦法是不是應該調整"},{"start":410.97,"end":434.406,"text":"是那個報告委員喔我們在那個行政院主改以後齁只要是屬於70個局屬的部分他才會他的部會組織法會定說本部或本委員會所屬的次級機構是什麼什麼什麼什麼那麼因為海聯院他是屬於我們中央行政機關組織法上面的研究試驗等等的這些單位那這個部分在我們體系上先講到這裡啦齁這部分我認為我們的這個組織條例要要要應該要做調整啦齁這第一個第二個我們未來齁這個副主委"},{"start":441.25,"end":465.566,"text":"我們現在剛剛有講到我們現在100噸跟300噸現在已經發包 已經招標 現在正在興建當中嘛那未來我們成立這個營運中心之後我們現在的這個包括它的招標 包括禮約執行都是由都是由這個國海院在做那未來它船舶完成之後它會用什麼方式來交到營運中心呢它會直接移交嗎 還是會委託還是由國海院委託行政法人來營運呢"},{"start":469.099,"end":485.728,"text":"目前的一個方式可能會以無償借用的一個方式給用借用的對 無償借用的一個方式給行政法人借用給行政法人來營運來營運 對所以他未來他的這個權利還是在還是在海委會在海委會在海委會在監督"},{"start":486.969,"end":502.596,"text":"借用也不是委託而是借用用借用的方式所有權還是掛在海委會這個很特別因為我看到現在我沒有看到說有所謂借用的方式來營運這部分我進一步了解我們營運的相關法規最後"},{"start":506.798,"end":524.91,"text":"我們這個這個目前的這個條例齁我這樣隨便盤點齁我目前的條例草案裡面齁我隨便盤點就有就有大概有七項以上的法未來的這個相關授權的辦法就在我們的草案裡面這授權我們未來主管機關要訂定辦法就是說我們今天如果通過了這個通過了這個這個設置條例之後我們還有"},{"start":527.572,"end":548.686,"text":"至少七樣以上我現在隨便盤點大概就有七條以上的授權授權我們還會為了要制定相關的辦法這些辦法制定好我們準備好了嗎我們來得及在明年八月八月之前完成嗎我們現在已經同步都在研擬了那我們這樣的體力也是參照其他的行政法人我知道我現在來得及嗎已經在研擬了已經在研擬了因為相當多了我們我看到規劃了"},{"start":549.807,"end":568.145,"text":"有相關的組織設施條例裡面授權這麼多的定定辦法的條例並不多我們這個有至少7個條文以上授權你們制定辦法這部分我希望說你們能夠同步的來完成能夠趕上你們計畫中的明年8月的營運好不好好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時37分）主席，我們現在請副主委。"],["主席：有請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：副主委早。我們今天就國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例進行審查，剛才前面幾位委員也大概針對設置行政法人未來的權責等等，有跟你進行溝通，我這裡大概要請問的是，你能不能說明一下，我們過去這麼多年，現在為什麼海委會認為營運中心有設置的急迫性？急迫性在哪裡？過去你們是怎麼做的，為什麼現在有急迫性？設置之後跟現在的作法有哪些改變？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，主要是國海院有兩個中長程計畫，一個是國家船模實驗室的建造，一個是調查船。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，一個是調查船、一個是船模實驗室。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對、對，這兩個其實營運……"],["沈委員發惠：這兩項功能，我們現在還沒有國家營運中心、沒有船模實驗室也沒有調查船，我們現在是怎麼做的？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們目前的船模實驗沒有那麼完整，就是在一些學校裡面有船模實驗，但是我們這一次建造得更完整，包括耐海性能水槽、迴旋臂水槽等等。"],["沈委員發惠：我們現在沒有營運國家的調查船，那現在海洋資訊的調查是怎麼做的？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們目前還是有，像國科會實研院還是有一些科研船，但是我們這一次是全海域基礎調查的調查船。"],["沈委員發惠：我們現在沒有做全海域的基礎調查嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有，但是還是會受到一些限制。"],["沈委員發惠：那現在是怎麼做的？現在沒有營運中心是怎麼做的？這個你要講，我們才知道為什麼現在設置這個行政法人是必須的。"],["陳院長璋玲：報告委員，現在有一些預算是由國海院執行，我們目前執行的方式通常就是委辦的方式。"],["沈委員發惠：委辦？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，委辦的方式，委辦的方式會去租船……"],["沈委員發惠：對，事實上我們現在是委辦嘛！"],["陳院長璋玲：是，委辦的方式去租船。"],["沈委員發惠：委誰辦？現在大多數是委誰辦？"],["陳院長璋玲：有些是測量公司，有些是學術單位，如果有需要……"],["沈委員發惠：國內的還是國際的？"],["陳院長璋玲：國內的。如果是屬於要租船的話，大概會有一些科研船也可以來租用，如果是屬於一些測繪的話，有時候會是私人的測繪公司。如果我們未來有這個調查船，海委會本身就可以發揮這樣的功能。"],["沈委員發惠：我們要對外說明清楚，為什麼我們現在要做船模實驗室是重要的？為什麼我們現在要做國家級、自己的全海域調查船是重要的？「這個是重要的」前提成立，我們接下來才說要怎麼營運，談到要怎麼營運之後，我們才來說營運到底是要用公部門營運，還是用行政法人營運，對不對？所以這個部分要先講清楚。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：是。"],["沈委員發惠：現在要成立營運中心，我們來看看國際上其他國家有沒有做，我們目前沒有嘛，我們國家從過去到現在一直沒有。我們現在看到國外的這些例子，包括美國，美國有一個國家科學技術政策辦公室，下面設立一個海洋科學技術小組委員會，所以美國是用公部門來營運這件事情；英國也是公部門，英國設置科學技術委員會下面設立一個海洋科學協調委員會，它也是屬於公部門；跟我們條件最接近、鄰近我們的日本，日本原本也是設立在公部門，他們在1971年就設置了一個海洋科學技術中心，但他們在2004年把公部門的海洋科學技術中心改成行政法人，在2004年，他們提早我們21年的時間設立了這樣的行政法人，這個行政法人叫作海洋地球科學技術振興機構。剛剛在講這個急迫性，我們現在看到其他國家，像在日本他們擁有大型的海洋調查船，目前有幾艘，你們知道嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：大型的有7艘。"],["沈委員發惠：大型的有7艘啦！中國有幾艘？"],["陳院長璋玲：中國的大概是60艘以上。"],["沈委員發惠：那我們臺灣呢？目前沒有嘛？"],["陳院長璋玲：臺灣目前就是以科研服務來看，國科會下面有4艘，還有農業部水試所也有。"],["沈委員發惠：我們現在已經進行招標、現在在做的是幾噸的？300？"],["陳院長璋玲：我們現在是100噸、300噸，未來還有4,000噸。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我馬上跟你討論，但在這個之前，我們回到前面的問題，剛才其他委員也有問到，我們現在有國海院，剛剛很多委員關心目前國海院跟未來要設置的營運中心，我看起來權責大致上是重疊，真正特殊的就是船模實驗室跟調查船的營運，對不對？只有這兩個，其他大部分是雷同。我想請問一下副主委，目前國海院是海委會下屬的三級機關嗎？它的依據是什麼？海洋委員會組織法第幾條？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：國海院組織法。"],["沈委員發惠：國海院組織法第幾條？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：第一條。"],["沈委員發惠：第一條的內容是什麼？你剛剛講海委會組織法第五條裡面「本會之次級機關」，沒有國海院，只有兩個，一個海巡署、一個海洋保育署；你現在講的國家海洋研究院組織法第一條「海洋委員會為辦理海洋政策規劃、海洋資源調查……」沒有提到海委會啊！所以它是你們的三級機關嗎？是嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對、對，人總……我們一直都這樣定位。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道你們是這樣的定位，但你們的組織辦法是不是應該要調整？"],["懷副人事長敍：報告委員，我們在行政院組改以後，只要是屬於70個局署的部分，才會在其部會組織法訂定本部或本委員會所屬的次級機構是什麼、什麼、什麼，因為海研院是屬於中央行政機關組織法上面的研究試驗等等的這些單位，這個部分在我們體制上都可以擺進去，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：好，因為時間的關係，先講到這裡。這部分我認為你們的組織條例應該要調整，這是第一個。第二個，副主委，剛剛有講到，我們100噸跟300噸已經發包、招標，現在正在興建當中，包括它的招標、履約執行，都是由國海院在做，未來我們成立這個營運中心，在船舶完成之後，它會用什麼方式交到營運中心？它會直接移交嗎？還是會委託，或是由國海院委託行政法人來營運？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：這個國海院有規劃。"],["陳院長璋玲：目前可能會以無償借用的方式給行政法人。"],["沈委員發惠：用借用的？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，以無償借用的方式給行政法人用。"],["沈委員發惠：借用給行政法人來營運？"],["陳院長璋玲：對。"],["沈委員發惠：所以未來它的權力還是在海委會？"],["陳院長璋玲：在海委會，海委會在監督。"],["沈委員發惠：但是你們借用？"],["陳院長璋玲：對。"],["沈委員發惠：也不是委託，而是借用，用借用的方式？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，所有權還是掛在海委會。"],["沈委員發惠：這個很特別，因為我看到現在，我沒有看到有所謂用借用的方式來營運的。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：因為我們希望所有權還是留在……"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我再進一步了解我們營運的相關法規。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，我們再跟委員報告。"],["沈委員發惠：最後，在目前的條例草案裡面，我隨便盤點就有大概七項以上授權未來的主管機關要訂定辦法，也就是說我們今天如果通過了這個設置條例，我現在隨便盤點，大概就有七條以上授權海委會未來要制定相關的辦法，這些辦法的制定，你們準備好了嗎？來得及在明年8月之前完成嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：這個子法我們現在已經同步在研擬了，我們這樣的體例也是參照其他的行政法人。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，來得及嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：已經在研擬了。"],["沈委員發惠：已經在研擬了？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，我們已經在規劃了。"],["沈委員發惠：因為相當多，我看組織設置條例裡面授權訂定這麼多辦法的並不多。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有，草案大概初步都有。"],["沈委員發惠：我們這個至少有七個條文以上授權你們制定辦法，這部分我希望你們能夠同步完成……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：報告委員，我們都有在……"],["沈委員發惠：能夠趕上你們計畫的明年8月營運，好不好？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員義川代）：好，謝謝沈發惠委員。","接下來請麥玉珍委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：（9時47）主席好，有請副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：副主委好。目前包括中央研究院、國立成功大學、海洋大學，以及交通部航港局等單位，都有海洋調查或模擬的設備，所以請教一下，海科中心與這些單位的功能區分，還有協調分工是什麼？是否有進行資源盤點報告，避免重複投資？是否能提供具體資料？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，我們事實上都有去盤點，不會有資源重疊的狀況。跟國實院下設的海科中心……我剛剛有報告，事實上他們比較是屬於學術研究，for學術研究型的個案執行部分。我們這個中心──國家海洋科技營運中心，未來主要是船模實驗室，還有調查船整體的營運管理等等，主要是這部分的功能。現在各單位有的這些船舶，我們事實上也借鏡一些國家整合海洋調查、研究船隊這樣的經驗，我們也會建立科研船的合作平臺跟資源機制，這個都有在規劃。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你這樣子講，你再看我的PPT，是不是打臉你自己呢？你講的東西是說很平均，但是這個資料是不是打臉你自己？70%欸！這樣你講的是不是跟我們看到你們的資料不一樣呢？"],["陳院長璋玲：70%這個資料我不曉得委員是從哪邊取得的，不過在我們自己的調查裡面，事實上目前現有的科研船確實以科研單位的需求來看是不夠的。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個是依據國科會的資料，百分之百是依據國科會的資料。"],["陳院長璋玲：因為國科會的運作方式是由各學術單位提出申請，確實目前申請的……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們的跨部會就是這樣子跨的嗎？他們做他們的，我們做我們的，我們不知道他們怎麼樣，我只知道我的就好，這樣嗎？"],["陳院長璋玲：沒有，我們知道他們的。我的意思是說，國科會針對的是所謂學術型個人學者計畫的申請，再去做船期的安排。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我才要問你們有沒有盤點。"],["陳院長璋玲：有。"],["麥委員玉珍：有沒有重複投資或資源重疊？每一個人做的都是一樣的話，我們政府的錢、人民的錢都是隨便花嗎？所以我希望能提供具體的資料給我。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們看到的是這樣，但是你們講的又不一樣……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員，我們也有去盤點。"],["麥委員玉珍：是不是就直接打臉了，對不對？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：不會，現在研究船期那個是不足的，就是整個調查船的量能是不夠的。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們要跟國科會跨部會去研究、去整合，看要怎麼樣去盤點，我覺得才能符合我們要設立這個中心的美意，因為海科中心採的是行政法人模式，目的在提升營運的彈性，但是過去如國研院、資策會也出現法人化後的效率未見提升、財務與人事問責模糊等問題，所以要請教中心的營運績效評估，還有機制上如何設計？第二個，是否有年度的KPI，由哪個部會主責監督？若未達成預期成果，是否有退場或重整的機制？這個部分有沒有？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，未來的監督機關就是海洋委員會，剛剛委員提到的……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們要的是機制，還有……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，剛剛委員提到的這些機制、制度等等……"],["麥委員玉珍：設計的部分一個、一個讓我們更清楚。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：剛剛提到我們有提子法……"],["麥委員玉珍：你要設中心大家都認同，但是要讓人民覺得這個對大家是好的，我們希望完整。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員提醒，這部分我們現在都在草擬相關的子法當中，包括剛剛提到的這些監督的機制、制度，當然也會借鑑其他法人曾經營運的一些狀況。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我們可以參考日本海上技術安全研究所每年發表的年度績效報告，依據科研貢獻、產官學，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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":152,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時29分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：副主委早。今天提出國家海洋科技營運中心行政法人設置條例草案，在你們的書面報告裡面非常清楚地提到，它會涉及到本土關鍵核心技術的發展，為了要避免有關於國防機密相關的事情能夠不要洩漏，不要到外國其他的地方去做實驗，所以要發展這樣的行政法人，這樣的理解沒有錯吧？按照行政法人設置的規定，這些行政法人進用的人員有公務人員服務法的適用嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：目前沒有，但是我們未來會有一般查核和特殊查核，所有的進用人員都要經過查核。"],["黃委員國昌：非常好，我們回答問題具體明確就好了，第一個，沒有公務人員服務法的適用。第二個，你們在第二十條裡面有所謂的安全查核機制，分為一般查核和特殊查核，一般查核由誰來做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：內部機關會建立這個安全查核機制。"],["黃委員國昌：一般查核由誰來做？由哪一個部會來做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：海委會。"],["黃委員國昌：特殊查核由誰來做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：一樣是我們機關來做。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個都海委會自己做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，會有不同的查核。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在設置這個辦法的時候有沒有參考國家資通安全研究院設置條例？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有。"],["黃委員國昌：國家資通安全研究院的一般查核是誰做？他們的一般查核是自己做，特殊查核是監督機關做，基本的法條構造要搞清楚，我看你們的第二十條就是從這個地方來的，所以我才問你，現在規範以後一般查核誰做，我再給你一次機會再講一次，一般查核誰做？"],["陳院長璋玲：監督機關。"],["黃委員國昌：特殊查核誰做？"],["陳院長璋玲：監督機關，我們會跟國安單位再做進一步的協調。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟你說，如果是按照國家資通安全研究院的規定，一般查核是行政法人自己做，特殊查核是監督機關做，但是按照你們剛剛的回答，未來海洋科技營運中心的一般查核和特殊查核都是海委會要自己做，是嗎？確定嗎？想清楚喔！不要到時候相關的子法授權給你們，送來立法院以後完全不是這麼回事，再給你們一次機會，一般查核是不是海委會做？"],["陳院長璋玲：一般查核是海委會。"],["黃委員國昌：特殊查核也是海委會？"],["陳院長璋玲：特殊查核是海委會，還有我們會跟國安單位再進一步來制作。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們現在要走的道路，跟國家資通安全研究院人員安全查核辦法就不一樣了，是嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們會更嚴格。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們就特殊查核事項列了哪些特殊查核的事項出來？"],["陳院長璋玲：我們現在正在研訂當中。"],["黃委員國昌：正在研訂當中？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，有一個草案。"],["黃委員國昌：國家資通安全研究院裡面的特殊查核事項，包括不包括你們未來要放在特殊查核的事項裡面？"],["陳院長璋玲：有。"],["黃委員國昌：應該都有嘛？"],["陳院長璋玲：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我要提醒你們注意的事情是，國家資通安全研究院本來設置的辦法已經有問題了，它交給數位部去做特殊安全查核，我看完它的特殊安全查核事項以後，我完全看不懂，數位部有能力自己做嗎？例如，你是不是曾經在動員戡亂時期終止後，和內亂、外患經判刑確定或通緝有案尚未結案者有密切聯繫，有密切聯繫的，數位部有辦法自己做？我看就不可能嘛！因為現在你們要求的授權範圍，第二十條的規定是全部交給你們，讓你們自己去訂定子法，所以我很擔心你們訂定的子法能不能用、規範的密度夠不夠。因為這是你們自己講的，會牽涉到國家機密的機敏資訊，不要到時候子法授權給你們，規範有問題、查核的密度有問題，搞了一堆應該要接受特殊查核的沒有接受特殊查核，成為共諜滲透的破口，海委會，這件事情授權給你們真的有信心做好嗎？還是我們在立法階段的時候應該要考慮把你們第二十條的規定提升到法律的層次來弄？現在海委會的立場是希望授權給你們，你們會負全責？還是希望本院在修法的時候把它拉到法律的層面上？請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：報告委員，我們還是希望用授權的方式，海委會絕對會把關。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以如果授權給你們，到時候沒有做好，誰要負責？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：海委會會負責。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常的好！第二個，我要提醒你們的事情是，我一直在追蹤我們國軍弟兄的防彈背心，過去這幾年，一拖拉庫不肖的廠商在得標，從中國進不合格的抗彈纖維布來做我們國軍弟兄的抗彈背心，這我看不下去啦！置我們國軍弟兄的安危於不顧，海委會也有針對抗彈背心辦招標，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！最近一次得標是哪一家公司？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這部分會後再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我秀給你看，這是公開資訊，就是聯戰嘛，是吧？這個是公開資訊，這個不是國家機密，我是在政府採購網上面就看到的，是不是聯戰公司？是吧？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是！"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！這家公司有沒有問題？"],["謝副署長慶欽：都是經過政府採購法依規定得標的。"],["黃委員國昌：來、來，我秀給你看。這個沒有得標的廠商攻衛跟聯戰，之前在其他的抗彈背心的時候，已經因為圍標被起訴了，還被停權了，當然它在起訴跟停權以前，剛好在你們得標以後，差一個月，但是這個會讓我很擔心，這兩家在調查局那邊圍標的公司，又跑到海委會那邊，兩家同時出現，結果又是聯戰得標，這件事情海委會或者是海巡署有沒有下去瞭解？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這部分的話，我們政風單位在招標的時候都有參與，我們會持續關注。"],["黃委員國昌：我最後講一件事，不僅僅是持續關注，請特別關注，為什麼我會講這件事情？因為這家聯戰公司不是只有圍標，之前在針對有關於國防部的抗彈背心時，它的供應商從哪裡進布？從中華人民共和國進布，劣質啊！被找到了！現在我在擔心的是什麼？擔心的是你們海巡署給海巡弟兄的那一批抗彈背心，是不是有一樣的問題，這件事情海巡署下去把關、查清楚，好不好？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們一定會嚴格把關，我們的規範也有規定，不可以有紅色供應鏈，所以這個在……"],["黃委員國昌：是啦！對啦！國防部也有這個規定，但就有紅色供應鏈嘛！又是同一個廠商嘛！所以我今天才善意的來提醒你們，回去瞭解清楚，一個禮拜之內給我書面報告，可不可以？"],["謝副署長慶欽：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","接下來請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a4bd83de3063f57116320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b494b6c22afa25882645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:19:34 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謝謝主席那第一趴先請海委會我們吳政府好 謝謝"},{"start":12.967,"end":32.904,"text":"好副主委早我其實要問的跟巧惠委員也差不多不過呢事實上我們之前在教文的時候已經跟國科會討論過了那國科會也說在這個部分他們確實會努力跟上不過在去年的幾個大型颱風之後呢其實就有台灣自己在地的學者專家有提出很嚴正的關於這個"},{"start":34.986,"end":60.754,"text":"海洋的研究這個資料給你看一下來下一張這個是成大地科系的劉老師他在第二段這邊他有說海委會所轄海巡署的單位服役中的船艦從大型巡防艦到小型巡邏艇有181艘可是卻沒有任何一艘可以執行固定的持續穩定收集周遭海域海洋基礎調查資料的海洋研究船只能取海水撈樣那也就是說"},{"start":63.055,"end":72.044,"text":"他們認為自取海洋國家的台灣在海洋治理上沒有獲取所需關鍵資料的必要工具可不可以回覆一下目前關於這個部分你們的推進"},{"start":73.496,"end":96.719,"text":"郭委員報告今天的這個設置中心條例事實上我們就是針對全海域基礎調查船我們現在國海院有三艘全海域基礎調查船有三艘正在建造中那100噸跟300噸的在115年可以完工那另外有一個4000噸的這個是目前最大的這種調查船會在118年完工"},{"start":97.875,"end":108.962,"text":"好那如果這些船完工之後是不是就真的可以做到剛剛這麼多專家學者所呼籲的海洋基礎調查研究資料不是只有在有海水取樣你們目前給他的規劃分工"},{"start":110.174,"end":131.674,"text":"為了這個調查船的這個建造事實上就是為了擴大這整個全海域的一個基礎的資料調查好那如果是這樣其實我其實還有想到關於人才的問題其實喬惠委員剛剛有提到因為法人的優勢就是他在禁用人才的彈性跟相關的營運上相對於公務機關是好的那目前你們在這邊的規劃方向可不可以跟我們簡單說明一下"},{"start":133.314,"end":160.875,"text":"我們未來會爭取大概這個中心希望有100個元額的這樣子的一個設置那裡面當然是專業的人力的部分會大概達到79人這個從船模的製造設計等等操演等等還有調查船的這個關鍵的幹部還有這些探測的幹部等等這個是人力的配置上面我們目前已經有所規劃"},{"start":161.656,"end":189.207,"text":"好 所以100個人裡面會有79人是做你剛剛所說的這些專業的工作但是我不確定你們目前相關的薪資等級規劃事實上在教育化委會之前就談過台灣在高等研究機構其實給的薪資相較於亞洲其他國家其實是低的所以就導致於台灣非常難留住這些高階的技術人才高階的專業人才我不知道在這個議題上你們有沒有相關的研究就是在留才的薪資彈性上"},{"start":190.885,"end":212.719,"text":"那個國海院院長來說明一下因為我覺得薪資夠好其實才是最務實的啦謝謝委員那目前我們大概目前大概預估大概如果說能夠順利明年15年8月營運的話那主要的一些主要裡面的一個算是營業處裡面的同仁的話那大概就是會有"},{"start":213.379,"end":214.34,"text":"聽起來其實還是沒有太回答我很務實的問題啦"},{"start":229.434,"end":256.26,"text":"我要講的就是這些高階研究技術人才他們之所以願意留在台灣除了是自己的家鄉他有愛台灣的心之外如果相關的福利跟薪水給得不夠好或是相關他們的敘心的等級其實他們沒有什麼動力但是根據你剛剛的回答我覺得看起來其實還沒有回應到我們的問題但我們今天有時間有限就麻煩你們會後提供給我們你們相關人才還有新等的資料我們看一看可不可以為這些願意留下來貢獻台灣"},{"start":258.121,"end":281.782,"text":"貢獻給台灣自己專業的人才更好的薪資福利好不好會後提供資料給我們好謝謝喔那我們接下來談另外一個事情運動部成立在即我之前就有問過關於海委會一個問題我說運動部要成立那目前台灣是一個海洋國家而且台灣確實有非常興盛的水域運動可是也因為水域運動非常興盛相關的水域事故其實很多"},{"start":282.242,"end":310.521,"text":"但必须老实的说台湾在相关水域运动事故相关的保险相关的证照相关的监管上过去体育署认为不是他们的业务他们就推给了海委会可是对于海委会来说可能也不认同这是你们的业务所以当时我就发文请教你们你们给我的回复非常诚实你们说运动部在筹备的过程当中没有邀请海委会参与可是海委会自己勇于认识你们说面对全民运动政策的制定"},{"start":311.081,"end":325.105,"text":"在水域運動上海委會可以並且願意成為運動部在成立過程當中行政治理的關鍵助力這個部分我可不可以請你正面再回覆你們是目前為止依然是這樣的態度嗎就是願意積極協助運動部"},{"start":327.206,"end":339.732,"text":"報告委員答案是確實是的這個也是海委會的職責我想這個部分我們希望你們跨部會進行討論這個部分不知道你們有沒有機會壓一個時間還是說你覺得由我們辦公室來共同召開兩個部會的跨部會討論是比較適合的"},{"start":344.927,"end":371.99,"text":"這個我們可以尊重委員這邊如果跨部會先討論一下後續海委會再做一個更深入的一些的協調也是一個可行的方式好那這個部分就我們辦公室來召開跨部會的討論好不好因為水域運動這件事情他不管是證照保險相關檢理政策確實需要海委會過去的非常多的資料進行水域事故細節的調查跟討論讓運動部做一個非常重要在制定政策法規資源非常重要的依據所以我們會召開跨部會討論"},{"start":372.771,"end":380.83,"text":"好 以上這邊先謝謝你們接下來我要請袁總跟全序部主席 主席 主席 給我們解一分鐘就好"},{"start":381.877,"end":408.447,"text":"好 謝謝主席看你愛蒙老鼓好 來 謝謝主席來 人寵跟全序部勞動節要到了不要緊張我們要問勞動節公務員放假不要緊張我們來看你們的法規因為我知道勞動節公務員放假行政院這邊有在努力可是我要講我們有非常多公務人員他們家裡都有六歲以下的幼兒可是一旦遇到勞動節放假這件事情他們的小孩就不知道要去哪裡這個現象其實你們一直都知道對不對目前有希望怎麼解決嗎"},{"start":409.667,"end":433.079,"text":"這個部分在公務員請假你們會說你們有家庭照顧假嘛叫他拿他那七天的家庭照顧假來放掉其他其中一天對不對因為我們必須還是要回還是要照現行的那個那個請假規則沒錯沒錯好我們來看你們現行的請假規則就是這個你們說醫師要請試假給七天家庭照顧假有七天如果他要請幼兒照顧假就請他用原來的家庭照顧假七減一"},{"start":433.939,"end":462.762,"text":"他就只剩下六天的家庭照顧假那在性工法裡面的勞動節不需要上班所以照顧小孩也不需要另外請假我知道你們其實在相關修法討論其實全序部跟人總各有各自的負責人總負責政策全序部負責法務法務的制定但是我想要問可是在你們今年下一張在你們今年四月剛剛公佈的公務人員請假規則裡面你們把幼兒照顧假條款拿掉了可是在去年的版本裡面卻有幼兒照顧假"},{"start":463.823,"end":489.219,"text":"那今年為什麼拿掉我不知道可能是因為行政院已經在討論公務員可不可以在勞動節放假所以你們這邊就先拿掉了我猜測是這樣我認為你們不是惡意為之我認為是因為我在討論好所以下一張所以這邊我可不可以積極的拜託公務員請假規則修正我們辦公室的建議是這樣可不可以在公務人員請假規則正式納入幼兒照顧假的概念有沒有機會做這個討論"},{"start":490.731,"end":511.611,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前請假規則就是還在廣納就是收集意見的階段所以各機關的意見還有委員這邊提的意見我們都會帶回去做一個通盤考慮好你剛剛已經說了都還在廣收意見那我的意見應該也是其中一部分意見那就拜託你們納入討論因為對於公務人員來說我們建立一個友善的生育職場從公務機關開始我認為是一個非常正面"},{"start":515.214,"end":541.905,"text":"的範例所以呢這邊我們辦公室會積極的在追蹤這個題目我再說一次對於公務系統裡面在因為跟勞動相關法規休假造成的育兒上的差異其實很多公務員已經抱怨很久了如果我們真的希望留下更多優秀的公務員在這件事情上我認為政府帶頭示範是非常非常的重要所以各自的政策各自的法規那任總這邊可不可以說一下你們的立場"},{"start":543.322,"end":567.648,"text":"他的立場我很清楚了 全序部說廣受意見討論中那任總這邊的態度呢因為目前也跟委員報告 因為還沒有有意見還沒有出來 那等出來的時候我想委員的意見我們都會在那個會上來仔細來討論那你個人是支持的嗎因為這是委員會沒有個人的問題好啦 但是我認為廣大意見討論真的非常重要而且我希望往這個正向方向移動好不好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時19分）謝謝主席，第一part先請海委會，謝謝。"],["主席：我們吳政副。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：副主委早。我其實要問的跟巧慧委員也差不多，不過事實上我們之前在教文的時候已經跟國科會討論過了，國科會也說在這個部分他們確實會努力跟上，不過在去年的幾個大型颱風之後，其實就有臺灣自己在地的學者專家提出很嚴正關於海洋的研究，這個資料給你看一下。這是成大地科系的劉老師，他在第二段這邊有說，海委會所轄海巡署等單位服役中的船艦，從大型巡防艦到小型巡邏艇有181艘，卻沒有任何一艘可以執行固定、持續穩定蒐集周遭海域海洋基礎調查資料的海洋研究船，只能撈海水取樣。也就是說，他們認為自詡海洋國家的臺灣，在海洋治理上沒有獲取所需關鍵資料的必要工具。可不可以回復一下目前關於這個部分你們的推進？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，今天的這個設置中心條例，事實上我們就是針對全海域基礎調查船，現在國海院有3艘……"],["陳委員培瑜：全海域基礎調查船？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，有3艘正在建造中，100噸跟300噸的在115年可以完工，另外有一個4,000噸的，這個是目前最大的調查船，會在118年完工。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。如果這些船完工之後，是不是就真的可以做到剛剛這麼多專家學者所呼籲的海洋基礎調查研究資料，不是只有海水取樣？你們目前給它的規劃分工是？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：這個調查船的建造，事實上就是為了擴大整個全海域基礎的資料調查。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果是這樣，我還有想到關於人才的問題，其實巧慧委員剛剛也有提到，法人的優勢就是進用人才的彈性跟相關的營運，相對於公務機關是好的，目前你們在這邊的規劃方向，可不可以跟我們簡單說明一下？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們未來會希望爭取這個中心有100個員額的設置，當然裡面專業人力的部分會大概達到79人，從船模的製造、設計、操演等等，還有調查船的關鍵幹部，還有這些探測的幹部等等，在人力的配置上面，我們目前已經有所規劃。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以100個人裡面會有79人是做你剛剛所說這些專業的工作，但是我不確定你們目前相關的薪資等級規劃，事實上教育及文化委員會之前就談過，臺灣高等研究機構給的薪資相較於亞洲其他國家其實是低的，導致臺灣非常難留住這些高階的技術人才、高階的專業人才。我不知道在這個議題上，你們有沒有相關的研究？就是在留才的薪資彈性上。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：請國海院院長來說明一下。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我覺得薪資夠好其實才是最務實的。"],["陳院長璋玲：謝謝委員。目前我們有大概預估，如果能夠順利在明年115年8月營運的話，主要的……算是營業處裡面的同仁的話，我們目前的規劃是會比照教育人員任用條例的薪資，還會加上一些獎金，尤其是船員部分的話，還有所謂的出海獎金，所以這部分我們大概有預留一些規劃，未來會作為吸引留才的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來其實還是沒有太回答我，這是很務實的問題，我要講就是這些高階研究技術人才，他們之所以願意留在臺灣，除了是自己的家鄉、他有愛臺灣的心之外，如果相關的福利跟薪水給得不夠好，或是相關敘薪的等級不夠好，其實他們沒有什麼動力。根據你剛剛的回答，我覺得看起來其實還沒有回應到我們的問題，但我們今天時間有限，麻煩你們會後提供給我們你們相關人才還有薪等的資料，我們看一看可不可以為這些願意留下來貢獻臺灣的專業人才更好的薪資福利，好不好？會後提供資料給我們。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，會後提供，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。我們接下來談另外一個事情，運動部成立在即，我之前就有問過海委會一個問題，我說運動部要成立，目前臺灣是一個海洋國家，而且臺灣確實有非常興盛的水域運動，也因為水域運動非常興盛，相關的水域事故其實很多。但必須老實的說，臺灣在相關水域運動事故相關的保險、相關的證照、相關的監管上，過去體育署認為不是他們的業務，他們就推給海委會，可是對於海委會來說，可能也不認同這是你們的業務，所以當時我就發文請教你們，你們給我的回復非常誠實，你們說運動部在籌備的過程當中沒有邀請海委會參與，可是海委會自己勇於任事，你們說面對全民運動政策的制定，在水域運動上，海委會可以並且願意成為運動部在成立過程當中「循證治理」的關鍵助力，這個部分我可不可以請你正面再回復，目前為止，你們依然是這樣的態度嗎？就是願意積極協助運動部？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：報告委員，答案確實是的，這個也是海委會的職責。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我希望你們跨部會進行討論，不知道有沒有機會押一個時間？還是你覺得由我們辦公室來共同召開兩個部會的跨部會討論是比較適合的？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們可以尊重委員這邊如果跨部會先討論一下，後續海委會再做一個更深入的協調，也是一個可行的方式。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分就由我們辦公室來召開跨部會的討論，因為水域運動這件事情不管是證照、保險、相關監理政策，確實需要海委會提供過去非常多的資料，來進行水域事故細節的調查和討論，讓運動部作為制定政策、法規資源非常重要的依據，所以我們會召開跨部會討論，以上先謝謝你們。","接下來我要請人總及銓敘部。主席，讓我再問1分鐘就好了，謝謝主席。"],["主席：看你要問多久。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主席。請問人總和銓敘部，勞動節要到了，我沒有要問勞動節公務員放假的議題，不要緊張！不要緊張！我們來看你們的法規，我知道勞動節公務員放假，行政院這邊有在努力了，可是我要講我們有非常多公務人員家裡都有6歲以下的幼兒，一旦遇到勞動節放假這件事情，他們的小孩就不知道要去哪裡，這個現象其實你們一直都知道，對不對？目前有希望怎麼解決嗎？"],["懷副人事長敍：這個部分在公務人員請假規則……"],["陳委員培瑜：你們會說你們有家庭照顧假，叫他拿那7天的家庭照顧假來放掉其中1天，對不對？"],["懷副人事長敍：因為我們還是照現行的請假規則。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，我們來看你們現行的請假規則，因事要請事假給7天、家庭照顧假有7天，如果他要請幼兒照顧假，就請他用原來的家庭照顧假，7減1就只剩下6天的家庭照顧假；在性工法的規定裡面，勞動節不需要上班，所以照顧小孩也不需要另外請假。我知道你們其實在做相關修法討論了，銓敘部和人總各有各自負責的事項，人總負責政策；銓敘部負責法務的制定。但是我想要問的是，在你們今年4月剛剛公布的公務人員請假規則裡面，把幼兒照顧假條款拿掉了，可是在去年的版本裡面卻有幼兒照顧假，我不知道今年為什麼拿掉。可能是因為行政院已經在討論公務員可不可以在勞動節放假，所以你們這邊就先拿掉了，我猜測是這樣，我認為你們不是惡意為之，我認為是因為有在討論。所以我可不可以積極的拜託，關於公務人員請假規則的修正，我們辦公室的建議是這樣，可不可以在公務人員請假規則正式納入幼兒照顧假的概念，有沒有機會做這個討論？"],["黃簡任視察佳慧：跟委員報告，因為目前請假規則都還在廣納、蒐集意見的階段，所以各機關的意見還有委員這邊提的意見，我們都會帶回去做一個通盤考量。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，你剛剛已經說了，都還在廣蒐意見，我的意見應該也是其中一部分的意見，那就拜託你們納入討論，因為對於公務人員來說，從公務機關開始建立一個友善的生育職場，我認為是一個非常正面的範例，所以我們辦公室會積極追蹤這個題目。我再說一次，對於公務系統因為跟勞動相關法規休假造成的育兒上的差異，其實很多公務員已經抱怨很久了，如果我們真的希望留下更多優秀的公務員，在這件事情上，我認為政府帶頭示範是非常非常重要。所以各自的政策、各自的法規，人總可不可以說一下你們的立場？他的立場我很清楚了，銓敘部說廣蒐意見討論中，人總這邊的態度呢？"],["懷副人事長敍：跟委員報告，因為目前意見還沒有出來，等出來之後，包括委員的意見，我們都會在會議上來仔細的討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：你個人是支持的嗎？"],["懷副人事長敍：因為這是委員會，沒有個人的問題，不好意思。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但是我認為廣納意見討論真的非常重要，而且我希望往這個正向方向移動，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來有請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},{"id":"160291","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160291","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2d17dc46794b9a48407b3ec8f4ab0a8320d1b8aa55c960075aa7aeb25548b497831a244d6e4ae105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:12:04 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謝謝主席 那我們就請吳政次好 吳政傅委員早好 市長早 副主委好我想要詢問的這今天我們既然是在審查這個國家海洋科技營運中心的設置條例所以我想我們就是應該來搞清楚 講清楚"},{"start":31.992,"end":59.168,"text":"未來我們到底設置的這個中心這個行政法人到底可以擔任什麼樣的業務然後他能夠帶來什麼樣的效應所以我們才會同意按照這個方式也按照行政院版的這個草案那我們來進行這個設置條例嘛對不對所以副主委那第一件第一個的話就請你說明一下那我們未來這個中心最重要的三大核心業務或者是還有其他的核心業務是什麼"},{"start":62.656,"end":73.324,"text":"國家海洋科技營運中心設置它的業務範疇在剛剛的口頭報告我們有進行重點的一個說明就是一個船模實驗室的營運管理然後海洋調查船的營運管理"},{"start":78.447,"end":100.516,"text":"那另外有一個是科技專業人才的協助培育因為這個人才是專業性的所以他將來怎麼留任啊什麼都非常的重要所以簡單講這一個行政中心這個行政法人啦這個營運中心未來設置之後最簡單的講法就是我們要把台灣的船舶研究方式留在台灣所以第一我們設置一個自己的研究實驗室"},{"start":101.716,"end":109.238,"text":"第二因為我們造了很多自己的船所以我們有船隊所以我們也用這個營運中心來做經營嘛有實驗室有船隊然後當然有人才所以我們留住人才這就是三大的我們的目標好可是我現在看草案的第三條這個中心的業務範圍其實這麼多項裡面您剛剛講的這個主要是包含在第二項跟第三項當中可是你再繼續看"},{"start":127.603,"end":143.584,"text":"這些項目跟現在國家既有的一些行政機關其實業務上是重疊的我做了一些搜尋我可以看到現在的相關研究單位裡面有國海院的海洋產業及工程研究中心它就是跟實驗室有類似的"},{"start":144.065,"end":165.518,"text":"然後呢這個海洋科學及資訊研究中心也一樣是在做這個科研的部分那當然更不要說後面的船舶暨海洋的研發中心就是造船的還有最重要目前其實大部分的這個國研院的海洋科技研究中心其實也都有相關的跟目前我們在做的不管是實驗室船舶的相關的研究"},{"start":168.48,"end":194.731,"text":"或者是船隊的研發其實都是相關的那未來你這一些工作要怎麼區分因為我想這個東西是跟我們未來的人才調度工作重複等等都是有關係的副主委你這邊怎麼回答那個國海院剛剛委員這邊有提到的國海院有幾個研究中心那國海院本身它是一個任務政策任務型的這樣子的一個研究的單位"},{"start":195.291,"end":208.003,"text":"那他主要任務還是要協助海洋委員會因為海洋委員會是統籌協調整理整理的海洋政策我們先我們一個人只有五分鐘六分鐘所以你可不可以稍微我在問的是你的權責會來會怎麼區分"},{"start":210.285,"end":232.885,"text":"好 謝謝那簡單報告就是國海院本身剛剛提到的研究中心呢他比較是隸屬於海委會然後接受海委會的一個所隸屬然後做的一些比較政策型的任務型的這樣子的一個研究調查那另外呢在這個目前的這個海洋科技營運中心這個設置條例呢他重點在調查船"},{"start":233.405,"end":253.821,"text":"跟這個船模實驗室的營運的部分那另外剛剛提到像那個國科會這個國師院底下的這個海洋科技的這個中心呢他比較是跟學術研究就是國學術研究然後這些需求比較是個案性的所以這個權責上是可以做區隔的有些是比較政策"},{"start":254.522,"end":268.679,"text":"位階稍微高一點的然後有些是個案執行面的那我們的設置今天的這個草案是主要是for船模實驗室跟這個調查船當然也會受這個監督單位跟督導單位的一些指示來辦理相關的"},{"start":269.48,"end":296.11,"text":"其實我覺得沒有非常的清楚啦不過我大概可以了解我舉個例子來講的話過去這個經濟部加交通部合資成立的這個財團法人船舶暨海洋研發中心我們看到他的業務就是有船舶工程規劃工程設計這就是跟國建國造是有關係的嘛那你這個國研院下面這個國研院國科會的國研院台灣海洋科技研究中心是目前唯一有的這個科管管科研船的單位"},{"start":298.431,"end":310.798,"text":"所以我本來要問的是說那現在我們新的單位出來了你的權責怎麼分因為這個權責我覺得會涉及到工作有沒有重複會不會有同職競爭甚至是統籌協調將來是誰在上面誰在下面不過你剛剛的意思應該是說未來這些現有的單位都會繼續做但他們只做政策研究的部分至於實際上的船"},{"start":321.704,"end":332.334,"text":"怎麼做 造船的部分 把船蓋出來從研究到製造 還有未來的經營就會都是我們這個新的今天的營運中心的工作所以您認為這個是很可以區分的 對嗎是這個意思"},{"start":336.718,"end":360.385,"text":"我們要用白話文因為我們的質詢其實很多民眾會看他才會理解為什麼國家在現在本來已經有研究海研究船了還要再加一個單位好那我們希望如果可以這樣的話是增強我們的國際實力船舶研究但最重要的我覺得是人才流用的這部分因為我們可以看到過去其實有很多國機國造國艦國造因為是單項計劃計劃結束以後錢就不夠了沒有錢不夠經費以後這些人才因為做過案子"},{"start":367.047,"end":392.671,"text":"訓練好了 結果沒有後續的案子之後反而人才會流到國家去這個經國號戰機就是一個最明顯的例子嘛所以我反而是希望貴會 委會可以向行政院爭取更多的計畫 經費 預算讓我們這個行政中心 既然已經做了就要把它做好 而且可以長久的用不然我看你們的預算其實比之前現有的單位都還要少啊"},{"start":394.134,"end":422.866,"text":"就是未來我們在規劃包括人力的需求上面我們現在其實都有在編估還有人才的職能的訓練內涵也都已經 國海院都已經做了相關的一些的設施對啊 因為我看你才爭取3點多億結果其他的單位加一加都比你現在爭取的還要多啊因為我們現在在蓋那個船舶實驗室跟電腦船你就說你會爭取啦 我也會幫忙啦 對不對我都已經在幫你爭取預算了你還沒有推啊 還沒有接求這就實在是 你看院長笑成這樣"},{"start":424.667,"end":434.675,"text":"好啦那因為時間的關係我們可以繼續討論那希望這個中心呢可以發展起來對台灣的科研對傳播研究人才流用是好的謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":88,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時12分）謝謝主席，請吳副主委。"],["主席：好，吳副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：副主委好。既然我們今天要審查國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例，所以我們應該搞清楚、講清楚，未來要設置的這個中心、行政法人，到底可以擔任什麼樣的業務、帶來什麼樣的效應，這樣我們才能同意按照這個方式進行，也就是依照行政院版本的草案來設置這個中心，對不對？所以副主委，第一個問題請你說明，未來這個中心最重要的三大核心業務，或者是還有其他的核心業務是什麼？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，國家海洋科技營運中心的業務範疇，在剛剛的口頭報告中已經有進行重點說明，一個是船模實驗室的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，船模實驗室。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：營運管理，還有海洋調查船的營運管理，另外一個是科技專業人才的學術培育，因為人才是專業性的，所以他將來的留任什麼的，都非常重要。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個行政法人、營運中心未來設置之後，最簡單的講法，就是要把臺灣的船舶研究方式留在臺灣，所以第一，設置一個我們自己的研究實驗室；第二，因為我們造了很多自己的船，所以我們有船隊，也用這個營運中心來經營；有實驗室、有船隊，當然要有人才，所以要留住人才，這就是三大目標。可是我們看草案第三條，在營運中心這麼多項業務範圍裡面，您剛剛講的主要包含在第二項跟第三項，可是你再繼續看，這些項目跟現在國家既有的一些行政機關，其實業務上是重疊的。我做了一些搜尋，看到目前我們的相關研究單位裡面，有國海院的海洋產業及工程研究中心，這是跟實驗室有類似的；然後海洋科學及資訊研究中心，也一樣是在做科研的部分，更不要說後面的船舶暨海洋研發中心，就是造船的；還有最重要的，目前大部分國研院的海洋科技研究中心，其實也都有相關的業務，就是跟目前我們要做的，不管是實驗室、船舶相關研究，或者是船隊的研發，其實都是相關的，未來這一些工作你們要怎麼區分？因為我想這個東西是跟我們未來的人才調度、工作重複等等都是有關係的，副主委，你這邊怎麼回答？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：剛剛委員提到的國海院有幾個研究中心，國海院本身它是一個政策任務型的研究單位，它主要的任務還是要協助海洋委員會，因為海洋委員會是統籌協調整體的海洋政策……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們一個人只有5分鐘、6分鐘，所以你可不可以稍微……"],["吳副主任委員美紅：不好意思。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我問的是你的權責未來會怎麼區分？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：好，謝謝。簡單報告就是，國海院本身剛剛提到的這些研究中心，它比較是隸屬於海委會，接受海委會所隸屬，然後做一些比較政策型的、任務型的研究調查。另外，目前的海洋科技營運中心設置條例，它重點在調查船跟船模實驗室的營運部分。另外，剛剛提到像國科會國實院底下的海洋科技中心，它比較是跟學術研究，就是for學術研究，這些需求比較是個案性的，所以在權責上是可以區隔的，有些是比較政策，位階稍微高一點的，然後有些是個案執行面的。我們今天的這個草案主要是for船模實驗室跟調查船，當然也會受監督單位跟督導單位的一些指示辦理相關的業務。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這樣講的話，其實我覺得沒有非常的清楚，不過我大概可以了解。我舉個例子來講的話，過去經濟部加交通部合資成立的財團法人船舶暨海洋研發中心，我們看到它的業務有船舶工程規劃、工程設計，這就是跟國艦國造是有關係的。國科會的國研院臺灣海洋科技研究中心是目前唯一有的管科研船的單位，所以我本來要問的是，我們新的單位出來了，你的權責怎麼分？因為這個權責我覺得會涉及工作有沒有重複，會不會有同職競爭，甚至是統籌協調，將來是誰在上面誰在下面。不過你剛剛的意思應該是說，未來這些現有的單位都會繼續做，但他們只做政策研究的部分，至於實際上的船怎麼做，造船的部分，把船蓋出來，從研究到製造，還有未來的經營，就會都是我們今天這個新的營運中心的工作，所以您認為這個是很可以區分的，對嗎？是這個意思？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員幫我們釐得更清楚。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對不起，我們要用白話文，因為我們的質詢其實很多民眾會看，他才會理解為什麼國家現在本來已經有研究海的研究船了，還要再加一個單位嘛！好，我們希望如果可以這樣的話，是增強我們的國際實力跟船舶研究，但最重要的我覺得是人才留用這部分。我們可以看到過去其實有很多國機國造、國艦國造，因為是單項計畫，計畫結束以後錢就不夠了，沒有錢、不夠經費以後，這些人才因為做過案子，訓練好了，結果沒有後續的案子之後，反而人才會流到其他國家去，經國號戰機就是一個最明顯的例子，所以我反而是希望貴委員會可以向行政院爭取更多的經費、預算，這個行政中心既然已經做了，就要把它做好，而且可以長久的用，不然我看你們的預算其實比現有的單位都還要少。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：未來我們的規劃包括人力需求上面，我們現在其實都有在編估，還有人才的一些職能的訓練內涵，國海院都已經做了相關的一些設置。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我看你才爭取三點多億，結果其他的單位加一加都比你現在爭取的還要多。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：因為我們現在在蓋船模實驗室跟調查船……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你就說你會爭取，委員幫忙啦！對不對？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我都已經在幫你爭取預算了，你還沒有接球，這就實在是……你看院長笑成這樣，好啦！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為時間的關係，我們可以繼續討論，希望這個中心可以發展起來，對臺灣的科研、對船舶研究、人才留用是好的，謝謝。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位質詢委員有請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}