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吳釗燮都做不到那我自把事實說明清楚因為如同剛剛那個黃委員所說如果我們一切依照法律來看憲法六七條六三條他本來就有我們立法院可以成立委員會嘛而且對於一些重要的政府官員我們除了法律案預算案之外跟國家有關的重要事項本來就可以請他來說明所以這也是為什麼我們這次安排的這個會議我們希望說"},{"start":224.489,"end":249.164,"text":"竟然我們的政府每天在那邊喊說我們現在遭共諜滲透是史上最嚴重那甚至要恢復軍審法恢復一大堆法而且還要修改國安法兩岸人民條例竟然有這麼多這麼多這麼多的意見他認為共諜這麼嚴重結果呢今天敵人就在本能室我們的共諜就在國安會卻不處理那如果依照這次台北地檢署處理"},{"start":250.882,"end":269.22,"text":"國民黨的台北市黨部只認為說有黨工涉案那就要把黨部主委也要申請羈押他說因為推定黨部主委也有涉案那是不是若依照檢方的這個邏輯的話那是不是國安會底下有員工涉案那國安會秘書長也有涉案"},{"start":270.001,"end":298.96,"text":"所以我想說我們不是說預斷他有涉案但我們希望他能夠來說明這就是我們這次安排這個會議的主要的目的更何況這個人待過總統府跟國安會跟外交部其實將近九年的時間他只有做過一次的安全考核那我們也希望說了解這個是什麼這是我今天排案的目的跟委員報告不好意思喔再用主席一點時間因為這件事情非常重要我理解主席曾經努力過所遭遇到的困難"},{"start":300.121,"end":326.699,"text":"那剛剛主席所提到的那個是在2013年10月16號的時候內政委員會由民主進步黨的段宜康召委他排了一個專案報告那個時候邀請國安會的秘書長到結果國安會沒有派人來那個時候由段宜康以及現在監察院的秘書長李俊逸還有高雄市的市長陳其邁他們一起提案什麼提案譴責國安會"},{"start":329.716,"end":356.009,"text":"譴責國安會說他們為什麼可以不派人來我覺得這是基本上國家法治的問題個案的部分個案的部分吳釗燮是不是有心虛是不是覺得丟臉不敢來那個是他個人的問題但我現在重視的是什麼重視的是國家安全會議組織法第八條是被廢了嗎如果沒有被廢的話"},{"start":357.645,"end":377.757,"text":"召委都已經發文 請國安會派人來 竟然可以不來沒有關係啊 我就依照相同的規格當天 段宜康召委一開始的時候在處理這個議案 國安會沒有派人來的議案是請議事人員聯絡"},{"start":379.429,"end":406.04,"text":"請他們在今天會議結束以前派人到司法法治委員會來是不是可以拜託召委提醒一下國家安全會議2013年10月16號就已經被民進黨的委員提案譴責過了啊結果今天他們自己執政自己可以不來這什麼道理啊是不是可以麻煩請主席才是麻煩我們的議事同仁辛苦一下"},{"start":408.314,"end":431.849,"text":"撥個電話通知我們的國家安全會議官威很大官威大的不得了啊說不來就不來那這個部分我們就麻煩議事人員聯繫那如果官會那邊有任何意見的話就可以跟他用2013年段奕康召委當時召集會議的時候他的論述可以直接請官會那邊參考那我們一樣請他們能夠派員過來好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16605","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2db8f3324780817fdece50009cd90371cebd9360bdedb08522b3b158be29699e715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-21T08:30:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-21T11:55:00+08:00","duration":12247,"影片長度":"03:24:07","委員發言時間":"08:30:53 - 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陳景林人事處處長 李世儀政工處公使 韓建豪組建處處長 李佩華資訊及電務處處長 林啟文公眾外交協調會執行長 蕭光偉"},{"start":2017.553,"end":2043.493,"text":"國際事務辦公室執行長陳剛毅非政府組織國際事務會執行長江振偉台灣日本關係協會秘書長范正國台灣美國事務委員會秘書長邱高偉外交及國際事務學院副院長陳文宜"},{"start":2046.33,"end":2069.79,"text":"領事事務局代理局長陳尚友財團法人國際合作發展基金會秘書長黃玉玲財團法人台灣民主基金會副執行長盧業忠財團法人太平經濟合作理事會中華民國委員秘書長許俊斌"},{"start":2077.238,"end":2100.247,"text":"補充介紹我們陳俊宇委員羅美玲委員好確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次的會議議事錄有無疑落錯誤或需要更正之處好那議事錄確定"},{"start":2104.073,"end":2107.722,"text":"本會議邀請外交部林曉龍部長業務報告概況必備諮詢請林部長上台報告"},{"start":2121.263,"end":2138.099,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安很榮幸再次獲邀前來進行外交業務報告非常感謝大院和各位委員對外交工作的支持書面報告請參閱 以下就重點說明 敬請指教"},{"start":2139.417,"end":2152.426,"text":"在過去337天以來總和外交已累積不少成果與具體的進展特別是總統繁榮南島智慧永續之旅圓滿成功造訪"},{"start":2154.056,"end":2181.151,"text":"太平洋三友邦並順利過境美國夏威夷和關島成果豐碩本人也先後率團訪問我八個友邦和美國等12個友好國家深化同盟關係和強化經貿連結在這一段期間儘管中國對我打壓矮化恫嚇變本加厲但是國際友我挺台力道屢創新高"},{"start":2182.95,"end":2204.999,"text":"美日歐等民主夥伴國家很多也以實際行動捍衛台海自由航行權也持續在國際場域重申維持台海和平穩定的重要性反制中國扭曲聯大第二七五八號決議以及支持台灣有意義的參與國際組織那我們也積極的推動龍幫八大旗艦計畫"},{"start":2211.735,"end":2227.292,"text":"不僅固邦更朝榮邦的目標來邁進展望未來我們將繼續全力推動總和外交各項工作實現賴總統的價值外交理念和經濟日不落國願景今年以來國際政經情勢更加詭譎多變"},{"start":2228.593,"end":2246.87,"text":"包括川普總統重掌白宮等發展導致全球地緣政治經貿格局和國際秩序都面臨劇烈變動和重新洗牌目前還在重新形塑之中此外當前許多還有涉及的美中博弈"},{"start":2248.089,"end":2265.136,"text":"俄乌战争等地缘政治严峻挑战而全球经贸环境也在快速变化及重构中充满变数以及不确定性甚至冲突加剧我们会继续以推动总和外交农帮计划以及建构"},{"start":2266.28,"end":2289.645,"text":"全球民主價值鏈印太第一島鏈和飛鵬供應鏈的台灣三鏈戰略來因應當前全球的變局另一方面我們也要協助國內業者立足台灣佈局全球我們更要進一步連結世界尤其對接美國的民主夥伴我們非常感謝美國政府"},{"start":2290.525,"end":2311.835,"text":"對台灣的支持而面對川普政府各項新政以及關稅的新局我們將持續秉持互惠雙贏的精神和美國政府保持密切溝通和協商以創造雙贏外交部也會全力落實總統提出的五大國安策略及17項因應策略"},{"start":2312.515,"end":2335.063,"text":"透過和友盟合作向世界宣示我們反對中國併吞也將反制中國消滅台灣矮化台灣主權的野心和作為自上個會期以來我們推動總和外交的主要重點如下第一從故邦到龍邦雙贏共榮除了賴總統成功出訪太平洋三個友邦"},{"start":2337.785,"end":2359.712,"text":"會晤馬紹爾群島土華路以及帛琉等友邦元首我友邦元首政要高層也樂意來訪在國際上為我直言各項合作項目也體現護龍的精神此外我們也會落實賴總統邀請友邦青年來台圓夢的宣誓規劃今年就會有4個友邦青年團共約50人以及約25個"},{"start":2362.13,"end":2370.32,"text":"提案來台圓夢的方案同時也將在兩年內達成倍增本部台灣獎學金入許名額的目標"},{"start":2371.564,"end":2392.753,"text":"第二台美夥伴關係穩健深化美國行政部門持續重視對台安全承諾美國國會也推動高度友台的法案面對川普新政台美持續拓展合作契機台積電在上個月宣布對美國再投資一千億美元賴總統也提出全球半導體民主供應鏈"},{"start":2394.963,"end":2409.069,"text":"全球半導體民主供應夥伴倡議凸顯台美高科技產業密切的合作此外賴總統上任後已經有五位美國州長先後率團訪美以實際行動支持雙邊合作"},{"start":2410.45,"end":2436.438,"text":"有助於進一步提升台美經貿往來及實質的商機第三台日關係密切友好日本政府持續重申維持台海和平穩定的重要性台日在經貿漁業等實質領域合作關係穩健日本國會參眾議員陸續來訪互動密切友好故前首相安倍晉三夫人安倍召會"},{"start":2437.543,"end":2452.173,"text":"也於今年2月出席哈利法克斯論壇台北年會再再彰顯台日的友好第四 台歐關係持續深化歐盟對外事務部英國 德國 瑞典以及七大工業國集團就是G7"},{"start":2453.434,"end":2478.715,"text":"透過公開方式或聯合聲明對中國在台海周邊進行軍演表達嚴正關切歐洲議會也高票通過友台的決議再度關切中國升高台海緊張情勢支持持續深化台歐多面向合作與交流各國的政要若以訪台展現台歐交流穩定深化挺台密度與聲量持續提升第五 善用台灣經濟優勢實現經濟外交"},{"start":2481.437,"end":2506.34,"text":"本部協助推動行政院經濟外交工作小組並設有三個專案小組全面拓展我與美國等夥伴國家的經濟外交合作針對龍幫八大旗艦計畫先鋒人才培育專案以及資安等議題整合跨部會的資源強化資訊交流及協作此外本部也已經和環境部文化部"},{"start":2507.18,"end":2525.425,"text":"衛福部、農業部、教育部等部會攜手,透過成立跨部會工作諮詢小組、籌組、公衛醫療臺灣隊、智慧新農業顧問團等機制,加強協調政府及整合公司部門支持員,以推動農幫計畫。6.繼續強化與新南向國家關係,推動新南向2.0。"},{"start":2530.686,"end":2548.506,"text":"我們推動以人為本的新南向2.0並提倡數位新南向以數位的實力、軟實力作為與世界及新南向國家的橋樑及樞紐將我國與新南向國家的雙邊關係提升到新的高度強化印太地區民主國家的經濟韌性"},{"start":2549.887,"end":2564.815,"text":"本部3月和台灣亞洲交流基金會合辦第八屆玉山論壇展現台灣在國際情勢下的重新定位強調我們有意願也有能力與西南向印太及全世界的國家合作藉由提供技術與經驗"},{"start":2566.796,"end":2586.884,"text":"與民主國家持續打造乾淨網路與非紅供應鏈並善用當地的資本、人才與技術推動產業的台灣PlusN的模式台灣加N的模式打造台灣與區域以及世界夥伴合作的行動方案第七 累積國際參與動能國際間支持及認同台灣國際參與的力道穩定攀升"},{"start":2593.087,"end":2603.977,"text":"如今年2月世界衛生組織執行委員會10個會員國友邦美日英法德澳以色列以及歐盟等代表發言挺台我們也持續透過亞太經濟合作"},{"start":2606.889,"end":2630.981,"text":"APEC展現台灣專業務實有貢獻的影響力第八積極向國際社會發聲我們持續以多元方式向國際發聲配合APEC命輪聯會聯合國氣候變化綱要公約第29屆第一方大會等國際場域以及重要政策主題及文化軟實力等主軸增加台灣的正面曝光加強國際文宣"},{"start":2631.741,"end":2657.968,"text":"第九 多元推進外交主流化我們持續在原住民、科技、治安、文化、人權、NGO等不同領域推動外交主流化並加強結合公司部門的能量打造台灣成為印太NGO中心也延續和文化部合作參與巴黎文化奧運的成功經驗規劃本年日本大阪2025世界博覽會"},{"start":2659.537,"end":2684.768,"text":"推動台灣歐洲文化年擴大宣揚台灣軟實力及優質國際形象第十積極提升為民服務效能和便民的措施這包括調整相關探親簽證的停留期限與加拿大育空特區簽署免試護照互換駕照的協議令今年1月1日起正式實施的有條件"},{"start":2686.108,"end":2700.787,"text":"線上的身換護照措施檢證辨明也讓人民有感本部將繼續全力穩健推動總和外交各項工作也期盼大院各位委員繼續給予支持和指教以上報告敬請視教 謝謝"},{"start":2709.242,"end":2725.268,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請以10點30分前提出11點左右處理那現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請林佳龍部長"},{"start":2746.563,"end":2763.568,"text":"部長早 部長在上個禮拜呢這個國民黨的青年軍這個成員叫宋建良的他因為在罷免李昆城委員李昆城委員的這個連署案因為涉嫌偽造文書然後遭到新北地檢署的這個約談那在移送賦訊的時候呢他帶著這個有納稅符號的這個備章還有手持希特勒的這個著作然後比出這個納稅的這個敬意的手而手勢引起這個社會的這個嘩然"},{"start":2773.851,"end":2779.177,"text":"那當然這個德國在台協會呢認為這個行為是非常的無恥喔那以色列駐台代表處也表達了這個嚴重的強烈的這個譴責那這件事情呢其實呢不單單是對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的這個衝擊那也影響到我們跟德國還有以色列等國的這個外交的這個邦誼喔"},{"start":2793.112,"end":2799.694,"text":"那其實我們除了這次的事件之外呢其實像過去其實國內陸續也發生過極其類似就是誤踩國際紅線的這個行為例如前幾年就有某一間這個高中在校慶的時候表演這個就是穿著表演的時候穿著這個納粹的這個服飾然後模仿這個德軍輕衛隊呢受教業的這個場景那像在2011年的時候其實也有"},{"start":2822.799,"end":2838.861,"text":"學生在參加國防部的戰鬥營的時候也是身穿納粹的軍服等等所以為了避免類似的情形發生我們外交部對這個部分我們要如何對這些年輕的孩子做一個再教育"},{"start":2839.201,"end":2841.463,"text":"因為當然我們知道教育部在一些歷史課本有提到關於納粹的過去對人類歷史的一些柔令跟一些迫害可是好像還是有些國內的孩子似乎不太了解他們"},{"start":2856.094,"end":2862.457,"text":"實際上呢對納粹行為不是那麼的清楚像外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候都必須要跟外館這個德國或是納粹或是跟國際來做道歉甚至說呼籲國人該怎麼做該要尊重他國的這個文化的這個歷史可是單單呼籲本席覺得應該是不足的應該是不足的我們如何要對這些孩子們"},{"start":2881.627,"end":2906.323,"text":"予以這個教育 這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已啊 部長是 委員我同意這個對於這個這件事件 外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責我們用這麼重 就是嚴正的譴責也是要就是有個機會教育要讓國人也跟國際都了解我們在對於這一個"},{"start":2908.945,"end":2922.746,"text":"用納稅的符號跟旗幟那麼濫用我們自由法治社會的一個言論的自由受到憲法的保障但是這一些是這個"},{"start":2924.969,"end":2943.061,"text":"不只是說負面的意義這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責另外一方面也是透過我們跟包括很多的"},{"start":2944.762,"end":2966.139,"text":"活動包括像這個有關於這個納稅大屠殺這樣的一個反思包括舉辦活動包括像HoverCost這些讓更多人的了解除了學校教育要加強以外我們在社會各個層面也必須對於使用這個納稅的這種過去殘害人類的"},{"start":2970.402,"end":2981.14,"text":"符號跟旗幟啊其實是表達絕不容忍也不會就是說讓這樣的事情在台灣就是發展"},{"start":2983.155,"end":3007.861,"text":"對 因為我剛剛有提到了 每次發生這個事情外交部就必須要站出來 像剛剛部長所提到了就譴責啊 那不然就辦一些活動其實我們也必須要讓國人知道 就像部長剛才所講的其實言論自由 其實它是有界限的那我們有盤點過幾個國家 尤其像德國德國它是明文禁止使用 就是說"},{"start":3008.701,"end":3016.444,"text":"有納粹標誌的這些任何的這個物品那再來也禁止穿著這納粹的軍服使用納粹敬禮宣揚納粹主義德國是還是明文禁止不然的話違反者他將以煽動種族仇恨的這個罪名來起訴那法國的話如果你出犯了以上的這些行為的話其實他是有罰款的那奧地利呢甚至呢他是處於一年以上十年以下有期徒刑情節嚴重的等於處於二十年的有期徒刑"},{"start":3036.013,"end":3061.17,"text":"那澳洲也是一樣他2025年透過的反仇恨犯罪法他最高是可處十二徒刑那泰國曾經也是發現像亞洲的泰國像之前有一個女子團體呢她在彩排的時候穿著納粹的這個萬字圖案的這個衣服那之後呢她還必須要向這個以色列大使來道歉而且共同舉辦教育活動像這個部分的話在台灣可能真的就比較少了"},{"start":3062.278,"end":3083.915,"text":"當這些人他在就像部長所說的也許是無知也許是無知那可是我們要讓他們如何了解像國外的話他其實是一個禁忌耶可是台灣的話不能只有外交部一代的道歉譴責而已那國人也必須要有所教育讓他們知道說其實你已經踩了國際的這個紅線"},{"start":3085.256,"end":3093.986,"text":"所以這部分的話我在想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同我們是不是來舉辦一些教育活動讓這些年輕的孩子知道說其實你已經抵觸了這個國際的這個紅線了這是本期的這個建議啦"},{"start":3100.253,"end":3128.555,"text":"OK好那再來呢我想請教一下就是說在上個月底的時候緬甸呢發生了規模7.7的這個強烈地震我們看到呢有很多的這個官方跟民間的這個單位他有發起了對緬甸地震災區的這個震災的捐款活動那當然要在捐款之前必須要跟這個衛福部社會救助司這邊來申請合法的這個勸募的這個活動我先想請教一下像這些善款到國外去我們有哪個"},{"start":3129.455,"end":3157.085,"text":"單位在監督嗎 請問部長當然如果因為要勸募必須向衛福部登記那有主管機關的監督那如果涉外因為我們外管尤其是如果以我們政府發起的當然我們會嚴格的來落實這些監督那有些民間他們的不管是善款或善刑透過非政府組織或其他的方式"},{"start":3158.025,"end":3179.016,"text":"那他們可能是以實際的行動表達對於這些災害他們的關心跟援助那這個部分我們會盡量的來去宣導一方面協助同時讓他們了解因為這都涉及到勸募的行為必須依法來辦理"},{"start":3180.117,"end":3207.816,"text":"為什麼本席會這麼問?像之前我們那個土耳其發生這個大陣的時候其實有很多這個善款流到這個台灣中心去嘛結果呢後來這個善款到底是如何使用的後來去向不明所以這一次這個緬甸的這個雖然發生了大陣可是有很多民眾其實有在擔心他捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建那會不會說不知情之下"},{"start":3208.817,"end":3230.292,"text":"甚至會流入軍政府手中作為一級的資金等等都有這些聲音出來所以這次緬甸的這個大政我們發現就是說民眾很有疑慮因為大家都很擔心說之前土耳其大政的時候國人有透過這個募資平台來募款那這台灣中心到後來錢到哪裡去了完全不知道"},{"start":3231.252,"end":3245.913,"text":"國人很擔心這件事情會發生所以我剛才就在提到就是說那部長有提到了如果是政府這邊來辦理的募款也許你們有所可以監督可是民間呢民間的捐款到國外去我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶是"},{"start":3246.794,"end":3260.75,"text":"國共委員報告其實在第一時間除了跟緬甸方面聯繫希望派遣救災人員過去那因為也涉及到他們沒有接受嘛那我們就支持民間包括很多的慈善基金會他們進入"},{"start":3263.392,"end":3288.142,"text":"他們比較有經驗以外其實很多台商這個台商的協會或聯誼會他們也有在地的人脈所以我們就用間接的方式來協助那另外僑委會在第一時間也有跟台商會來聯繫所以這些都是表達我們對於這些就是不管是救災 震災的關懷跟協助那可是呢確實在有一些國家它比較"},{"start":3289.822,"end":3312.372,"text":"就是比較不上軌道尤其是涉及到這些善款的利用我們也記取過去的經驗我們怎麼樣去實質的幫助到需要幫助的人而不是只是給錢因為錢就是會有產生非常執行的問題那在海外有時候啦真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚的去監督到每一筆錢的流向"},{"start":3313.713,"end":3335.249,"text":"如果我們跟NGO或跟台商會的合作他們至少是一個在台灣算是有一定的代表性的社團這個也能夠達到援助的一個目標但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須要接受嚴格的監督這個是要做一些區別的"},{"start":3336.723,"end":3353.443,"text":"部長是這樣子喔因為剛剛部長還是在提這對於這個民間單位的這個募款目前說實在聽起來是我們這個監督單位的系統是還沒有建立起來海外喔真的是因為我們多次其實包括在東南亞發生的很多災難國人真的也是很熱"},{"start":3354.384,"end":3357.406,"text":"這是國人的愛心但是在執行面會有一些落差因為畢竟他那些國家法制比較欠缺會有時候中間人像你在緬甸來講就好幾個政府了所以這次緬甸的捐款國人很有疑慮錢拿去用在哪裡或者是這個都會造成無法去追蹤"},{"start":3377.581,"end":3399.021,"text":"所以避免國人的愛心被有心人所利用我想外交部跟有關單位相關單位應該要來建立一個比較有系統的這個管道如何去監督這筆錢否則國人還是有疑慮畢竟土耳其的事情之前也發生了台灣中心大家都還以為是台灣的政府"},{"start":3399.601,"end":3423.074,"text":"成立的一個 因為它用台灣中心 實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了所有的建設也都不知道在哪邊所以這個部分的話 我想這部分應該外交部也要來加強跟各個單位來做一個討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝陸美玲委員上台質詢接下來由陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":3436.22,"end":3464.256,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請林佳龍部長部長早 辛苦了我們台灣護照根據這個最新的2025年的亨利護照指數顯示我們名列全世界第34名是可免簽通行139個旅遊的一個目的地那我想在此"},{"start":3465.116,"end":3492.891,"text":"來就叫我們部長台灣護照排名提升越來越好用那目前我們正在爭取的相關互惠的免簽、自動通關待遇還有相關的這些與其他國家的互惠的方式近期內是否會有增加的機會那可否請教部長是否可以透露有可能是哪些區域或是哪些國家有可能會有好消息"},{"start":3495.014,"end":3514.052,"text":"我們在東南亞也有一些在進行中國家那就是因為免簽也涉及到因為有一些簽證費用的處理那這當然是互惠雙向的一個進行那因為我們也給東南亞有一些國家"},{"start":3515.693,"end":3537.484,"text":"因為基於觀光或其他的這些包括各種的移工進出等等的方便我們也像對方國家也能夠基於對等的原則來辦理另外當然就是說在包括其實因為像主要的民主國家我們大概都有免簽了不管是美日或者是像歐盟"},{"start":3538.624,"end":3561.401,"text":"但是有一些像在不管是中東或者是非洲還有其他地方雖然是往來沒有那麼頻繁不過這個就是一個如果能夠免簽那也會促進雙方面的交流包括商務或觀光所以我們也是跟很多國家在溝通台灣是大家都喜歡來那怎麼樣基於對等"},{"start":3563.843,"end":3579.341,"text":"互惠的原則我們也一一在檢視所以也希望說能夠再不斷的增加免簽的對象國家另外一個就是因為現在很多都是用電子簽或其他的方式或落地簽這也都在我們努力的範圍"},{"start":3582.52,"end":3603.432,"text":"本年度我們外交部的業務費還有美宣費還有旅費被煽動包括外交部領事事務局的預算其中有一條1.2億的部分這筆預算主要是用於購置空白護照那刪減後僅能支應購買185萬本的空白護照"},{"start":3607.694,"end":3633.471,"text":"那如果今年國人申辦護照依然像往年這麼踴躍的話我們推估在這個今年的十月底左右,空白護照安全存量就會吃緊那我想就叫部長就是依目前的這個實際的情況預算執行的情形那我們空白護照與印發的這個作業是否會受到影響那影響的情形我們該如何來因應"},{"start":3634.597,"end":3649.218,"text":"是 各位委員報告確實因為預算的三貨棟尤其在護照的部分我們內部的估計大概到十月可能就沒有辦法再印製所以這個部分我請領務局是不是來更詳細說明一下"},{"start":3651.691,"end":3668.785,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝委員林務局報告這樣子 因為我們在去年我們預估我們會印280萬本結果我們總共印了286萬本那今年呢 我們現在1到3月應該說到3月底 甚至到上個禮拜我們總共合發了大概69萬本"},{"start":3670.106,"end":3682.996,"text":"那也就是說今年依照我們的預估是可以應該要核發209萬本那依照這樣的一個速度來看的話我們大概短缺是15到20萬本剛剛委員有提到"},{"start":3685.638,"end":3713.411,"text":"那這一部分呢因為我們有所謂的安全存量這有點類似說家裡面都有安全的存款這樣子那這會造成一個卯池飲糧的一個現象就是說我們會把我們的安全存量提前把它用盡用完那這一部分我們領務局已經考慮到了我們會跟我們護照供應商中央印製廠來做一個密切的聯繫或許我們早一點展開這個所謂的招標工作等等來因應以上報告"},{"start":3713.971,"end":3735.607,"text":"安全存量就可以因應十月份以後我們的安全存量大概是一估兩個月那一個月大概是20到25萬本也就是說我們的安全存量是大概四五十萬本那因為到十月底如果用完的話那可能我們到12月就真的一本都不剩了所以我們要提早作業這個部分好"},{"start":3736.388,"end":3757.289,"text":"那我想再就教就是這個依據我們之前的相關領照的一個數據五一勞動節的這個前後會是一個這個換照的一個高峰期那我們領務局的各辦事處是否已經提前做好準備對於各地申辦的這個量能我們是不是已經都準備充足了"},{"start":3761.458,"end":3774.585,"text":"五一勞動節確實因為我們勞工朋友依照勞基法勞動基準法他是放假的但我們公務機關並沒有放假所以這個對我們那個護照的就修建跟合法都是一個非常大的挑戰"},{"start":3775.405,"end":3796.265,"text":"那跟委員報告事實上從每年的3月到5月都是我們護照核發的一個高峰期因為民眾有在暑期出國的一個必要所以5月1號是一個特殊的日子但是對我們來講3到5月都是一個非常高的高峰期那本局好像外交部領事處局跟我們外交部四個辦事處都做好相應的準備"},{"start":3797.026,"end":3823.226,"text":"那我們的同仁現在其實都已經在加班然後假日也必須要來加班因為這個工作負荷相當的重不過外交部所有的同仁都有信心要來應付這樣一個挑戰謝謝好那我想針對這個護照的部分我請外交部能夠持續的來做好相關的準備讓台灣的護照可以在國際上的使用更加的這個便利也可以持續的精進讓這個民眾要換發的過程裡面"},{"start":3827.268,"end":3845.733,"text":"這個申辦的過程能夠更加的便利性那另外我想就叫部長就是對於我們這個友邦的相關問題的一個討論那在這個立陶宛他在這個2021年的時候允許台灣在他的首都設立以台灣為名的一個代表處"},{"start":3847.013,"end":3872.027,"text":"引發中國的不滿對於立陶宛祭出外交與經濟的制裁立陶宛的總理帕魯克在去年底上任之後多次表示希望能夠和中國恢復外交關係近期也傳出與中國恢復外交關係的對話已經在進行當中立陶宛是否可能迫於中國的壓力"},{"start":3873.389,"end":3877.077,"text":"更改台灣的代表出名稱,進一步影響到台灣和立陶宛的雙邊關係"},{"start":3879.644,"end":3900.349,"text":"報告委員 立陶宛政府包括總理他們也都對他表示立陶宛跟中國在諮商是不是在恢復大使館或一些外交的關係他不會以更改臺灣我們的代表處的名稱來迎合"},{"start":3906.95,"end":3926.778,"text":"那這個部分因為也是我想他們政府也是延續的那也有對外表示他們不會再壓力下去做這個更名未來這數年也都會維持就是我們這個所謂的Taiwanese Residential Office這樣的一個住管的名稱"},{"start":3928.389,"end":3944.782,"text":"另外南非的部分,南非政府惡意打壓片面的要求台灣代表處遷離首都並且在3月試圖將我們聯絡代表處降級更改為商務代表處目前我們雙方針對這個部分的協商進度違和"},{"start":3947.384,"end":3966.613,"text":"如果南非的執政政府執意要改變現狀的話,那我們後續會有如何的一個因應的作為而且中國動作頻頻,那我們應該如何來避免這種效益會擴散,進一步影響到導致這個骨牌效應的出現"},{"start":3970.195,"end":3981.668,"text":"確實南非在中國的壓力之下企圖要求我們牽管、更名還有矮化我們駐地的一些權限"},{"start":3989.236,"end":4009.346,"text":"不過經過不斷的交涉在他們原先訂這是三月底嘛必須要簽管但目前不沒有再持續這樣的要求我們也瞭解因為我們也訴求就是說我們要讓南非政府瞭解這個我們"},{"start":4010.426,"end":4037.287,"text":"互設代表處是基於1997年兩國政府達成的這個結略就是協議這裡面白紙黑字都在要任何的更改必須雙面雙方來這個對談所以沒有啟動這個程序就擅自單方面的去更改對台的關係這是違反雙方的這個協議那這個也是南非很多友人他們據以力爭"},{"start":4038.628,"end":4054.452,"text":"就是南非還是一個法治國家,它就不能夠自己違法那當然在這個過程當中,我們怎麼樣能夠說之以理雖然我們這是有法的依據,那我們也是不卑不亢所以就這整件事情來講,這快一年來我們的應處,也讓南非這麼感受到我們的堅持"},{"start":4062.994,"end":4087.81,"text":"我們不會去在壓力下妥協可是呢我們也是很理性的希望跟他來溝通怎麼共同來去應對可能南非面對的壓力那我想這個基於這次的經驗我想對外交同仁來講也是一個很大的激勵我們不是一定就是零和我們就是必須在說之我們有我們的這個"},{"start":4092.173,"end":4111.808,"text":"說裡以外要得到國際的支持所以包括美國包括歐洲很多國家其實包括日本等都是透過他們正式的外交管道有表達對這個史詩的關心所以我想這一件事情啊也讓我們台灣的外交空間不但沒有受到打壓而且得到更多國際的一個支持"},{"start":4116.483,"end":4141.423,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘我想再就教部長最後一個問題就是這個2023年3月的時候洪都拉斯與我國斷交那今年底他們將進行這個大選那傳出有許多位的在野候選人也都希望能夠繼續跟台灣來恢復邦交的關係那針對這個部分我們外交部是不是有掌握到相關的這個情勢是否有可能會與洪都拉斯再復交的可能"},{"start":4142.578,"end":4166.487,"text":"報告委員確實有洪都拉斯的總統參選人有表示如果他們勝選會恢復跟台灣的邦交當然我們這是歡迎不過我想這個因為我們也是密切在關注對於這個尤其是中美洲特別是在美國川普政府尤其是那個國務卿盧比奧他訪問之後的影響"},{"start":4169.288,"end":4186.014,"text":"因為他在瓜地馬拉跟這個阿聯酋總統的記者會裡面公開肯定瓜地馬拉維持跟台灣的邦交國而且也肯定台灣持續的增加對瓜地馬拉的不管是投資或是援助那我們把邦交國的關係做好"},{"start":4186.394,"end":4201.98,"text":"也會讓更多的友邦跟台灣就是包括恢復邦交這裡面一個很重要影響宏都拉斯的就是所謂的他的白蝦這個產業現在是很慘整個是瓦解掉我們也在支持旁邊國家的貝里斯"},{"start":4203.801,"end":4223.11,"text":"已經得到衛福部派船去做很多茶廠檢疫近期內已經都陸續的完成程序我們的農幫計畫也是透過這樣的方式因為台灣的業者也很需要進口大量的白蝦甚至龍蝦所以我們的台灣是有一定的經濟實力我們幫助友邦能夠繁榮而且以跟台灣友邦交國為榮"},{"start":4228.713,"end":4244.433,"text":"這也是榮邦計畫我們現在用經濟外交來讓很多國家比如說我們在南美洲有巴拉圭那把巴拉圭的這個榮邦計畫做好之後周邊國家他想跟我們談的時候就很簡單我說如果你跟台灣建交或恢復邦交我們就比照辦理是"},{"start":4245.313,"end":4265.72,"text":"這個就是我們現在的經濟外交籠幫計畫整個發揮的一個效果我想對台灣來講現在的不管經濟科技的實力我們的各種的台灣發展經驗已經可以很多友邦他們有興趣的已經不是一般的員外比方台灣參觀我們的所謂的智慧城市展"},{"start":4268.021,"end":4288.847,"text":"電腦展 還有半導體展 AI展他們都覺得台灣的包括我們智慧城市的解決方案他們也想要整體的能夠應用在他國家所以這個是我們的國家隊所謂的心驗型聯合艦隊就包括了非常多我們包括像電信的公司 中華電信或者是涉及到一些科技的像工研院 資策會"},{"start":4291.288,"end":4318.288,"text":"那當然外貿協會就是我們標準的我們這個所謂的聯合艦隊裡面的我們的成員這種方式我們也感覺到有亮點可以這個作為示範計畫在巴拉圭的這一個台巴的科技台巴的智慧科技園區即將這個已經就是整地完成在建廠這個都是新的榮邦計畫的模式以上再補充 謝謝"},{"start":4319.289,"end":4332.239,"text":"那我們也期待藉由部長的這個新的外交策略來帶領我們台灣在外交空間能夠尋求新的一個突破謝謝部長好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員質詢好 謝謝下面我們請黃仁委員提出質詢我們請部長"},{"start":4349.155,"end":4350.237,"text":"有請林部長謝謝部長好委員好"},{"start":4358.308,"end":4384.404,"text":"那個關於預算的解凍,我今天講的比較務實一點我想114年的年度的預算,外交部的預算凍結案有幾個案子目前已經送了幾個案子,幾個結凍的來到立法院那現在已經四月下旬了那以往這個時候外交部不會有解凍案"},{"start":4385.424,"end":4412.475,"text":"送來立法院尋求解凍了但今年很特別到目前還是零案是什麼樣的原因有沒有任何朝野立法委員組織外交部送解凍案來立法院我想應該都不會我想部長你來回答這個問題好不好關於解凍的案到現在為什麼目前來講還是零案"},{"start":4414.879,"end":4429.496,"text":"報告委員一方面是當然行政院或主計總署他在會診各部會的這個解凍案那因為這個相關的這個總數怎麼認定這涉及到大院跟這個行政院之間經過我想"},{"start":4432.74,"end":4449.031,"text":"不斷的在諮商這個我們也會配合來辦理那這次比較特別的是要經過立法院院會通過才能夠解凍這個程序跟過去周國委員會就可以完成是又不太一樣所以我想行政院一定有通盤的考量"},{"start":4449.943,"end":4469.411,"text":"我想這個紛紛擾擾現在是已經捆腰四天現在全國人都認為說我們為什麼一直沒有解凍然後呢全國現在行政院沒有錢可以去執行在各縣市裡面或者是各個預算裡面這個就是一個誤導四天"},{"start":4470.791,"end":4489.199,"text":"那有關於預算的解凍原因各有不同解凍條件也難以自分很多只要提交書面報告就可以解凍了但幾乎沒有解凍的難度如果不會真的在等前為什麼沒有提出書面的報告"},{"start":4489.918,"end":4503.21,"text":"是因為解凍報告寫不出來嗎那另外就是執政黨一直抱怨預算遭到預算害得部會無法做事那但是各部會自己不送不送解凍案是不是表示"},{"start":4503.829,"end":4526.523,"text":"其遭解凍案的前確實沒有急迫性那基本是了解行政院或主席總署下令各部會暫時不准提解凍案外交部有沒有收到這個命令我想應該是行政院主委院長下的命令吧那你來說明一下好不好"},{"start":4527.844,"end":4550.179,"text":"而我們外交部針對凍結案都在進行準備當中那因為這次要大院通過才能夠解凍那因為大院對應的就是行政院所以我們外交部也是會配合來辦理那如果說我想一個另外的方法如果委員能夠讓他交回來到"},{"start":4551.159,"end":4568.013,"text":"從大院交回到委員會我想這個事情就更單純了一點我想部長你有難言之處啦我當然知道好不好那因為行政院或組織總署是不是打算用解凍案當作大版面的工具然後故意押案這是不是"},{"start":4569.334,"end":4584.366,"text":"產生了一個堵值所以這個是我要提醒我們這個部長那你盡快送來因為零一個案子都沒有送來那所以這個就是比較有一點特別的一個狀況那另外就是"},{"start":4586.182,"end":4612.596,"text":"為被美國列入的關稅優先的談判談判國那部長本希在4月10號安排外交部和相關部會報告美國開啟這個全球關稅戰的議題當時各部會曾經在曾經在90天內緩衝洗和掛上號的洗頁中但是沒想到之後美國財長列出的第一波談判的名單並沒有台灣"},{"start":4614.097,"end":4629.825,"text":"跟讓本席感到嚴重的是手破條件談判的五個國家中不但沒有我國反而包含我國貿易的重要競爭對手韓國和日本那請問部長"},{"start":4630.945,"end":4654.462,"text":"在外交部是否就此向美國交涉向美國表達不應該無視台灣在全球貿易中的重要性提出台灣印在美國談判優先名單的訴求那部長你認為我們要不要爭取來做一個優先的名單當中你來說明一下"},{"start":4656.158,"end":4680.236,"text":"報告委員 我們已經在優先名單而且同步平行在展開台美的談判所謂外傳我們不在優先名單 這有出路我們跟美國的包括貿易代表署也已經建立了管道就具體的項目已經在諮商"},{"start":4680.896,"end":4687.139,"text":"那因為這個一下子美國要面對這麼多國家怎麼進行包括除了視訊以外實體的談判這個都需要安排包括時間、地點以及這個談判項目的優先順序那任委員報告是我們應該是會診已經很聚焦有這個幾類的這個議題然後哪些項目雙方面我想包括賴總統在"},{"start":4710.268,"end":4721.832,"text":"不管他透過這個錄影的方式或是投稿國際的媒體也展現了我們的所謂台美的這個經貿關係的路徑圖那那個路徑圖的項目很明確比如說有不管是五大項目那這裡面包括關稅的談判以外"},{"start":4733.216,"end":4760.149,"text":"還包括非關稅貿易障礙投資採購或者是出口管制也就是息產地的問題這些都已經有對應啊已經整理出議題清單今天為什麼提出這個五國當中我們並沒有台灣這是一個數據也是一個事實那是列舉啦那應該是我們是在優先名單第一波的名單已經展開了在台美以4月11號先行進行的視訊的會議"},{"start":4762.31,"end":4789.893,"text":"那可能在世信會議中不是貿易的談判這個不要混淆視聽本席特別期待我會應該在優先貿易談判的名單中原因有兩個第一個90天的暫緩時間並不多貿易談判本身也需要時間若無法被放人優先名單很可能遇到戰時期台灣"},{"start":4790.917,"end":4806.656,"text":"還上不了台辦桌所以這個問題我想我們一定要重視因為有關於台灣是一個重要的貿易貿易國家所以這個就是我們請部長要用心"},{"start":4809.318,"end":4832.084,"text":"第三個就是我們南非代表處遭到清除的南非首都那本席去年就一直關心南非住管的處境並且多次質詢相關的狀況雖然在外交部的同仁努力之下我駐南非代表處仍然在"},{"start":4833.22,"end":4847.92,"text":"普勒托利亞正常的運作在南非政府推動我牽掛及降級的立場乃非常堅持向南非提出的協商要求也沒有獲得具體的回應"},{"start":4849.282,"end":4865.5,"text":"表示危機並沒有解除本席整理了事件的始末第一,2023年12月南非國際關係合作部口頭要求我國駐南非代表處遷出首都佛羅托莉亞"},{"start":4867.722,"end":4895.299,"text":"第二,2024的4月南非正式發出結列要求我國駐南非代表處在半年內簽字耶漢尼斯堡第三,2024的11月我國駐南非代表處舉辦的國慶酒會當中南非再一次以電郵寄送結列要求10月30日"},{"start":4896.62,"end":4915.291,"text":"前完成搬遷並威脅若不搬遷將關閉這代表處那2025的1月南非政府再度致函我駐南非代表處要求在3月底以前搬離佛羅多利亞並試圖將代表處降級為更名為貿易辦事處2025的3月南非媒體報導3月底完成台北辦事處的"},{"start":4925.256,"end":4950.447,"text":"簽署這更名2025的3月25號那我國外交部向南非提出協商的要求包含建議實地人員組織以協議簽署方式細節等待南非政府的回應2025年的3月31號南非要求頒獻的最後的期限我駐非駐南非代表處來維持政黨運作但非洲"},{"start":4954.208,"end":4971.502,"text":"這個南非政府對於協商要求的並沒有回應所以請問部長現在已經事業下旬了對於協商的南非政府有回應了沒有那當然根據部長之答詢的內容如果真的被迫簽這個簽管或降級"},{"start":4972.302,"end":5000.012,"text":"外交部能採取的措施包含一 強力的抗議二 要求南非駐台辦事處遷出台北三 嚴審南非人士簽證的申請四 暫停雙邊合作及貿易的反制那我想這個措施對於南非政府能不能產生反制的效用呢那部長你來回答一下"},{"start":5000.731,"end":5023.245,"text":"我們基於對等跟互惠的原則因為外交行為嘛 我們有我們的國家的立場他們也有他們國家的立場所以在這個情形之下 我們都準備好應處的方案可是我們希望還是能夠據理力爭目前到已經是4月21號 他們並沒有強"},{"start":5026.727,"end":5051.186,"text":"自的要我們簽管那這個時候我們當然知道他們也有一些考量比如說他們如果是一個法治國家那這個管財產是台灣的那怎麼迫使我們簽呢可是我們在應變的方案當然對於我們管務人員的安全或領悟怎麼去進行我們都有一些沙盤推演的對策這個就是我們這個"},{"start":5053.949,"end":5080.083,"text":"要危機處理的一個準備啦那現在的情形是他們內部政府也正在進行重新的檢視到底能不能這樣子違反法律或契約然後也違背了國際的輿論甚至他的現在的聯合政府啊他們裡面的這個政黨也有公開反對的國會議員也是"},{"start":5082.245,"end":5110.223,"text":"這個就是要提示部長因為既然你剛提的不管是陳俊宇委員所提的他是一個法治的國家但是對國際的信守承諾也應該遵行所以對台灣來講的話非常的重要因為我們台灣很多的華僑都在南非我們要保障他們在南非不管是從事經貿任何的事務應該是要保障他們在南非的"},{"start":5114.106,"end":5124.372,"text":"請主席再給我一分鐘另外剛剛我看到在業務報告裡面的應用外交主流化務實擴展"},{"start":5128.134,"end":5149.594,"text":"這個十億的外交我想我針對原住民的外交的MGO中心我想你有什麼樣的目前這個推動進展跟未來你來說明一下是總和外交我特別強調包括原住民外交當然也包括MGO的外交因為我們外交處境很特別原住民是我們台灣很大的資產"},{"start":5150.535,"end":5175.575,"text":"特別跟南島語系的國家我想在賴總統上次的這個太平洋三個友邦還有訪問跟過境美國就可以看到那這個原住民的方面我們除了有無論所大使有兩位有這樣的背景以外我們也加強在各種的文化經濟還有國際組織上面的互動跟合作當然我也很期待有"},{"start":5176.235,"end":5196.932,"text":"更多的原住民大使所以我們這個真的也是很激起希望能夠有這樣的人才針對這個原民外交的MGO的推動我想這個賴總統已經任命有兩個原住民無認所的大使那我想下一次的外交業務報告裡面我也想請這個兩位"},{"start":5199.154,"end":5217.646,"text":"吳任所的外交大使也請他列席我想問問他他未來短期中期長期的推動的外交事務包含南東以西的這樣的一個南太平洋北太平洋的這樣的一個怎麼樣做的連結來做一個報告一下好不好"},{"start":5218.266,"end":5232.827,"text":"好 我跟委員說明在這個上週紐西蘭有七位國會議員來訪問就有原住民的國會議員那真的是他們很關心這個原住民的外交另外甚至加拿大"},{"start":5233.488,"end":5254.503,"text":"他們也都有很多原住民的政策而且這已經不是只與一般的交流包括經濟文化權利的保障很多制度啊政策可以相互來交流跟學習所以委員提到兩位無論所大者他們各有負責的這個領域當然我們要看要也讓我們的國內國人知道就是說目前這個"},{"start":5255.644,"end":5278.694,"text":"原民外交的一些推動的政策而且我們在外交的樹裡面現在每況愈下那我們希望說能夠提振提升更能夠擴展一下我們的國際事業好不好是 那我也建議委員因為包括原民會啦還有幾個相關的部會如果能夠一併來做一個整體的對原住民外交的檢視我們就可以有更多能夠促成我們一併邀請好不好謝謝謝謝黃人委員"},{"start":5284.955,"end":5300.776,"text":"下面我們請陳冠廷委員來質詢您好我們請部長"},{"start":5311.55,"end":5340.29,"text":"部長好 委員長部長剛才其實有幾位委員有提到關稅的部分那我想要請教一下現在的進度特別是日美之間已經有一些談判的一些進度出現那當然根據一些媒體有提到說日本他可能是在北國全球上面的談判中可以視為一個典範但是當然日方不見得是所有人都這麼認為特別是只要是談判特別是在這種狀況之下他可能有得有捨"},{"start":5341.01,"end":5362.087,"text":"那這樣的狀況包含一些農作物可能必須要有一些讓步會衝擊到他們的農業也好 汽車業也好那我們可以從中得到什麼樣的資訊 情報以及從中得到什麼樣的經驗讓我們在跟美方談判的時候能夠更加的有餘裕這是第一個部分第二個就是日方怎麼樣應對中國"},{"start":5363.388,"end":5382.974,"text":"我為什麼要特別講因為中國商務部有各種的這種非常戰狼式的這種反擊對美方的反擊甚至是對美方的盟友甚至都要見縫插針對此我們有什麼樣反制或者做好相應的準備嗎各位說明確實我們也密切關注美日之間的關稅談判"},{"start":5384.935,"end":5409.146,"text":"那因為他們有直接的邦交關係嘛那有包括甚至我想川普就可以這個在他們在比較工作階層談判的場合他也後來也參加這確實是特殊的風格我們也密切關注那因為每日之間因為涉及到這個關稅貿易以外其實他們有一個很大的問題農產品的問題是汽車"},{"start":5413.407,"end":5432.174,"text":"這個產業對好像日本影響非常的大這個然後另外就是他們的所謂的安保就是說軍費的分攤的問題這個也是另外一個比較特別因為他們有這個日美安保的這個協定那在台灣方面我們很密切的關注尤其包括因為我們沒有汽車這樣一個這麼關鍵性到可以可能這個涉及到這個"},{"start":5439.996,"end":5465.601,"text":"就是日本的一個整個產業的一個發展那另外一個就是他們日方的談判策略跟結果我們也密切關注因為雖然我們也同步展開了跟美國的談判可是我想川普是把日本當作一個示範要讓各國來看所以我們也密切的關注謝謝部長那我還是強調一下就是說我們跟日方的關係也是很緊密的"},{"start":5466.141,"end":5491.457,"text":"那在這個談判的節奏上面我們可以從中觀察到那常常會節奏上面可能還是以美方為主導的節奏那所以我是希望說在在美國的我們的辦事處也好那加強對日方的聯繫那從中汲取一些經驗那快速的去反應這未來的談判都是會有加分的那特別要觀察就是說日方怎麼去應對中國的壓力因為"},{"start":5492.197,"end":5516.796,"text":"從日方的這個反應也可以成為我們未來的一些各種情境上面的演習所以我們是在第一批但同時第一批裡面的首先的最重要的日本可能已經給我們很好的一些經驗的或者是一些我們可以效法的一些做法那我們還是都要警惕一下因為看起來這還是會蓋成他們的一些衝擊剛才你提到的一些農業也好他們的這個汽車產業也好"},{"start":5519.318,"end":5528.186,"text":"那從中看到他們的節奏是什麼對我方我跟委員補充一點就是其實我們在先前談台美21世紀貿易倡議的時候針對第二階段包括農產品 工業 環境還有一些涉及到的項目我們已經其實剛好有這個準備"},{"start":5539.896,"end":5554.177,"text":"那這關鍵就是說我們的衝擊跟整個怎麼樣去配套對國內可能的影響所以相對來講我相信我們的準備工作是應該做得比較完整麻煩部長也要全力的來守護我們特別是我們是來自嘉義農業縣"},{"start":5555.359,"end":5574.884,"text":"那對於我方的這個農業必須要它的衝擊要把它降到最低這是我希望外交部來去協助的再來第二個部分就是剛才你提到這個安全保障還有軍費分擔等等那根據華府智庫的統計CSIS 他說美國目前全球的造船產能只有0.13%"},{"start":5576.784,"end":5594.354,"text":"那是落後中國南韓那中國是53%那南韓是29%日本是13%那甚至美方的這個造船的產能是落後於台灣大概是0.29%那我的意思是說剛才我們提到各項的這個跟外交談判的時候"},{"start":5595.254,"end":5614.087,"text":"對我方跟對對方都能夠雙贏的是什麼我認為就是安全領域上面在造船領域上面我們現在台灣的造船有很多優勢譬如以高雄為核心的這個國艦國造的產業聚落包含台船中心等等都有那我們的實際是有公務船海巡軍艦特種的作業船都有"},{"start":5614.947,"end":5639.374,"text":"我想請教部長外交部針對台美造船業的合作立場是什麼有沒有辦法來協助不管是海委會或者是其他相關的這些部門來去跟AIT來去就相關部門直接來接觸不管是維修共享維修產線共享設計健行或者是來確保我們印太區能夠保有量能的這種可能性想請部長來回應一下"},{"start":5640.114,"end":5661.454,"text":"是 確實我想因為川普總統上任之後就成立了造船的辦公室在直屬總統府之下他也跟韓國那時候這個尹錫悅總統第一個議題談的就是造船業因為對於中國造船業已經不只是在商用甚至在軍事上幾乎是"},{"start":5662.745,"end":5682.763,"text":"快要壟斷了整個國際的市場所以他也對於他的所謂的停港費有中國造船的都可以甚至是一百萬一百五十萬美金的這個稅那這個就是希望另外一方面要加強美國跟他的友邦的造船業這個就是台灣因為這幾年國建國造還有我們的造船產業也發展起來"},{"start":5688.408,"end":5691.13,"text":"所以這個部分除了自用之外我們跟美國現在有一個經濟繁榮夥伴對話在去年我們續約了第二屆就是新的五年裡面我們就提出針對運輸安全相關的項目那我們也會把造船業放進來這不只是配合美國的政策我們也希望在這個造船產業利用這一波的機會"},{"start":5710.823,"end":5729.022,"text":"讓台灣可以輸出到國際包括尤其是第一島鏈我想面對中國的整個青老除了軍艦以外包括海警船包括很多其他的西藏他們灰色地帶的這個青老非常的嚴重所以很多的這個我們海巡署用的這個"},{"start":5734.407,"end":5759.479,"text":"船艦這個快艇都是我們現在優先要發展國造以外也希望能夠輸出那跟美國能夠有合作在國際上市場也能夠佔有一個一定的地位謝謝部長那這也是符合美方跟我們的共同利益那我們剛才提到說安全的共享安全的這個確保其實這就是一個方向那我還是希望台美能夠透過制度性的合作"},{"start":5760.299,"end":5787.739,"text":"然後來去融入他們區域的造船體系那其實不管是在造船的船體本身或者是它的相關產業鏈特別是我國的通訊產業等等那這些產業聚落我們都有那我希望更加主動的來去談那部長我不知道你還記不記得我們在之前我在質詢經濟部長的時候我有特別提到說有美方的智庫有把這一個川普把關稅的公式的錯漏之處把它指出來"},{"start":5789.42,"end":5809.758,"text":"有那你不覺得這個智庫對我國非常友善嗎智庫因為有時候當然我們都很重視啦基本上我們跟美國的智庫的交往非常的平凡那這個部分他們所發表的專業的研究我們也都會參考所以我覺得智庫外交對台灣來說是無關"},{"start":5811.92,"end":5833.736,"text":"不是無關這個政黨的它是智庫外交是對台灣來講是重中之重因為你沒有辦法去推測說哪一個智庫會在什麼時候會對我們提出最關鍵的協助像上次傳統基金會就是提出很關鍵的協助對我國來講對我們關稅台灣來講都非常重要這是無關黨派的"},{"start":5834.376,"end":5859.224,"text":"這是對台灣有最大利益的我們希望外交部能夠加強協助在台灣的各個智庫然後對美方的這些智庫之間的關係那當然我們的駐美辦事處跟這些智庫都長年以來都有很深厚的關係我們也是希望能夠持續來去加強那當然我還是想要請教外交部是不是有沒有考慮把這個包含外交學院與你基金會啊國科會教育部等等"},{"start":5859.904,"end":5879.507,"text":"建立這些美國的一些研究學人你知道各個智庫他們都有研究學人來到我們台的這些駐點研究機制這是長期之間的人才培育無關黨派不管是共和黨還是民主黨不管是比較親共和黨還是民主黨的智庫都可以來台灣來跟我們有長期的關聯"},{"start":5880.208,"end":5901.181,"text":"那這樣的關係建立之後在關鍵的時刻特別是在關稅的時候他們就能夠指出對台灣有利有益的論述好 各位有人說除了美處啦密切積極跟這個在美國的智庫有很多的交流合作舉辦活動以外我們事實上也很多邀請那當然有一些計畫"},{"start":5902.663,"end":5928.744,"text":"專案性的委託 或者是說他以這個學人獎學金的方式進行那我們也尊重他們的學術的自主啦另外就是說我們的玉山論壇 凱達克拉論壇常常也都會邀請說也有一些他們的成果的展現那在關鍵時刻我們也是透過這些智庫進行所謂惡鬼外交甚至1.5鬼到1鬼都可以透過智庫做平台"},{"start":5929.204,"end":5955.282,"text":"那在台灣像美國的IRI、NDI還有這個NED還有這些就是不管共和民主的不同政黨他們成立的這些智庫還有包括民主基金會我們更是有對應的這個台灣的民主基金會所以這個智庫是非常頻繁現在已經不只美國跟歐洲特別這方面的交流現在非常的蓬勃發展"},{"start":5956.283,"end":5971.341,"text":"謝謝部長我特別強調過去我在智庫服務的時候那我的一些部署或者是實習生有的在日本大使館工作他是日本人有的在印尼的總統府工作那後來他們都有跟我國在駐地的辦事處有很深的連結"},{"start":5972.082,"end":5989.41,"text":"我現在是鼓勵我們駐館包括日本的我們的代表處啊積極的透過東京啊除了連結日本相關的智庫以外也連結其他國家住在東京他們不管是大使館或者是這一些智庫相關的一些代表"},{"start":5991.846,"end":6014.431,"text":"我想請問趙委我可以再問最後一題嗎好謝謝趙委那最後一點其實就快速回應就好安全許可的機制這個部分我們剛剛有提到這麼多的事情裡面最重要的就是人但如果人他沒有做過背景查核的話我們不知道他代表誰甚至是他背後的能量是在會不會來去導引他做出傷害國家利益的事情"},{"start":6015.211,"end":6033.232,"text":"那在美國國務院有外交安全局外交安全局裡面是專門處理接觸機密人員的資格審查那我當然知道說我們現在未來要配合行政院等等這樣的說法我有聽到那我也知道說院長也有提到相關的這個未來的一個方向但是"},{"start":6034.215,"end":6056.805,"text":"我是希望說評估的範圍他能夠從國家的忠誠財務到犯罪、民、刑事都要特別是民事也必須要包含在那有沒有可能外交部主動來去承擔一下在行政院跨部會議把你們的這個方向指引來跟行政院來分享來做一個主導特別是在外交部本身部內"},{"start":6057.941,"end":6084.668,"text":"是外交人員除了經過國家考試我們其實尤其是在派外的時候都有很進一步的安全查核那至於說幕僚人員這一波涉及到的就是機要有任用或者其他約聘那也必須建立更完整的制度而且要加以落實所以我們藉由這個一些發生的事件我們有在積極的"},{"start":6087.569,"end":6108.524,"text":"希望在制度面更加的能夠來做一些完整的規範我講這個原因是因為你講到農幫或者是經貿外交經貿談判那就涉及我國的重大利益這個就是非常機密的事情所以我才想說安全核可被檢查這個部分來好好研究一下"},{"start":6109.625,"end":6136.041,"text":"美國的話在聯邦的單位是由國防部的反情報安全局來去執行95%的這個背景查核那當然國防部說這個是調查局的工作那國安局的話是有國安局自己內部的所以其實現在每個部門都還有一些不同的查核機制那我是希望說部長你們可以自己來做部內的檢討看什麼樣的機制最符合外交部特別跟機貿相關的謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":6140.757,"end":6146.64,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢那接下來由沈伯陽召委上台諮詢好 謝謝主席 那有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":6169.742,"end":6197.703,"text":"部長好好久不見因為剛剛前面有接續到這個考核的事情我在想說因為今天剛好隔壁調查局也有來人事總署今天沒有來但是這個考核的事情確實是非常的重要不過我打算等一下到隔壁問所以我就先問個外交的不過考核確實真的很重要我今天大概有四個問題第一個當然就是跟我們的預算有關係就是說"},{"start":6198.604,"end":6227.205,"text":"我有看到這一個外交部跟Discovery有合資一些這個紀錄片然後也有得獎那我看到今年的3月16到22有這些這個網紅組團訪台對不對說這一個觀看數是3,500那我覺得這個算是在總和外交裡面非常重要的一環因為它尤其是第二個它已經接觸到一般的人民不只是而且不只是說什麼是單純的知識分子而已就是說很廣泛的一般的庶民都可以去接收到這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":6228.366,"end":6257.797,"text":"那但是因為我剛好前陣子就上禮拜了我們有去外交學院那外交學院因為他們現在也有在辦這一個全民外交的課程那他有點是在帶譬如說台灣的一些NGO或者說偏鄉等等之類他們怎麼去加入這個總和外交那但是現在就是他們好不容易如果把人也可以把他訓練出來然後或許也可以跟外交部搭配那國傳司現在這個預算的部分是不是受到比較大的影響那目前因為畢竟他已經受到影響了我們大概也不能做什麼"},{"start":6258.237,"end":6259.881,"text":"那像因應的這個策略有什麼"},{"start":6261.124,"end":6286.366,"text":"因為他不能夠做這些文宣影響真的很大因為你還是要透過一些媒體管道去傳播我當然巧不難為無名之炊但是我當然盡量變通所以我就自己有時候親自上場開記者會然後辦活動然後變成一個議題甚至有爭論都不要緊就吸引國際媒體的報導"},{"start":6288.968,"end":6304.477,"text":"因為國內比較屬於我想大家都了解這個都很關心外交部可是在國際上因為中國它現在是排山倒海的它的所謂的一帶一路這些在很多國家去事實上有一些都已經是"},{"start":6306.23,"end":6334.924,"text":"涉及到違法的行為他也在做那我們要以合法的方式去對抗他然後就宣傳好像參加國際組織我們要讓更多的人來支持台灣的時候我們卻沒有這樣子的一個文宣的費用當然我是這個一方面是很難為但是也很難過啦所以我希望我自己或者像我最近辦這個不管是所謂的大阪世博要去發現要去所謂的尋找台灣Finding Taiwan我就變成一個活動"},{"start":6335.684,"end":6362.352,"text":"然後號召限制各地的人來投件這個就不是宣傳但是它會不會有效果也會有一些突破然後像歐洲像我知道去年奧運是文化奧運效果非常好歐洲人很有興趣所以我們今年有推出這個歐洲台灣文化年可是一樣沒有文宣的費用我們是要把外館年度性的活動做個檢討之後我們把它聚焦然後以活動或新聞稿或各種方式"},{"start":6362.932,"end":6380.725,"text":"包括一些網紅的邀請那有一些是幾乎半贊助的方式所以委員剛剛提到包括像我們國傳司邀請的四位網紅其中一位啦我舉個例子這個瓜地馬拉的這個網紅他在一週裡面那我也跟他互動他總共接觸到3200萬"},{"start":6384.93,"end":6399.049,"text":"人 點閱這西班牙語系啊那這個就是我想國團司也是功不可沒但是畢竟啦我們都要透過活動而不是一般的文宣管道真的也是會有點精疲力竭或是說力有未待"},{"start":6399.429,"end":6415.057,"text":"對 因為現在這個砍的這個狀況我就覺得說這個運作非常困難那剛剛聽到部長第一個當然就是透過個人透過個人去參與活動先自己製造新聞這個當然是會稍微比較辛苦一點那另外我剛剛有提到像士博這一次我已經這樣等大家看見臺灣"},{"start":6416.158,"end":6442.192,"text":"那我上面因為剛好聽到這一個我順便問一下就是說因為現在在這一個展場因為畢竟它不能夠直接弄出這個台灣的元素嘛對不對那如果說我們現在要把這一個元素把它增強這是剛剛講的剛剛已經講已經在做了那第二個就是說因為我們這個也有一些在那邊的同仁他們就有回報說其實在那個當地的這個導覽就日文的導覽他們有不斷的提到台灣"},{"start":6442.972,"end":6456.119,"text":"因為他是導覽他導覽的時候他在語音上但是因為他是在日文的時候提到那不知道就是說可不可以會同經濟部因為我知道最主要其實是在經濟部在弄那這個會同經濟部看能不能有更多這個語言的一個方式讓台灣可以呈現其實"},{"start":6459.209,"end":6481.011,"text":"台灣我們不去講大家都知道那因為日本當然也是協助我們用玉山這個科技諸事會社去登記了一個叫TEDWORKTEDWORK的但TW這個台灣也是TW但是我覺得這個就很自然的我們現在是從實質參與之後其實也是很有張力"},{"start":6481.792,"end":6487.758,"text":"很多日本人去看的時候打卡上傳那有些人甚至問TW不是台灣打個問號年輕人很有創意變成一個新聞事情我覺得這個也都是在大家覺得怎麼樣透過這樣的一個參與參與就能夠讓大家看見"},{"start":6501.952,"end":6526.664,"text":"至於說有一些官方的一些限制我們盡量去爭取可是我想民間的空間是無限大因為畢竟日本也是一個民主的社會所以這個是委員提到就是說它的台灣元素是具體而為的呈現在這個館我們經濟部不管是我們外貿協會號召了台灣所有的這一些新興科技"},{"start":6527.564,"end":6539.113,"text":"包括AI晶片還有所有的虛實整合的這一些資通訊產業還有智慧的這些解決方案我是覺得就像奧運當時在東京舉行的時候日本的NHK就稱我們是台灣隊我們有時候"},{"start":6548.834,"end":6564.368,"text":"有時候因為中國的霸道可是大家都知道心照不宣那透過自發性的力量呈現其實有時候適得其反反而對中共來講想打壓我們效果反而大所以委員也可以去參訪透過委員參訪你也有很多的粉絲以這個方式來幫助讓台灣能夠被世界看見"},{"start":6573.857,"end":6591.157,"text":"不過說到這一個就是說中國的ABA啦中國的打壓這件事情因為最近也是變得比較嚴重那因為WHA就是也要就WHO的事情所以也差不多要進行了所以我想後面再問一下就是說中越這個我先挑過就是說目前這一個WHA這件事情"},{"start":6591.838,"end":6605.397,"text":"就是因為畢竟離美國離開還有一段時間但是就是說我們之前很著重在2758那現在因為這件事情也快了那這個跟衛福部相關的合作針對這件事情有沒有一個相關的報告跟國人知道一下"},{"start":6605.951,"end":6633.605,"text":"我覺得跟委員報告其實美國雖然對世界衛生組織也許新的政府有一些不同的做法不過對台的支持力道並沒有減低今年二月這個在世界衛生組織的執行委員會裡面就是美日等國的這自然公開的對台灣來發聲以外其實中共想要用27582決議來排除台灣他們反而激起了這一些理念相近國家也表態"},{"start":6634.725,"end":6653.004,"text":"這很多都是有幫忙表態2758的所以有時候危機就是轉機因為中共打壓無所不在所以我們怎麼樣能夠透過各界有點是有時候也是借力使力讓台灣的聲音被聽見那可以跟中共我們站在同樣一個舞台上"},{"start":6653.624,"end":6673.036,"text":"大家能夠就是我們能為台灣來發聲對我們就是說對外當然我覺得外交部在應對中國威脅那現在當然是預算上有所不足這是一件事但是有些創意的發想這當然是很好那當然就是內部就是說我那天在去這個學院的時候也有特別跟他們提到因為內部我們也可能會有滲透或間諜"},{"start":6675.197,"end":6702.613,"text":"那內部的這個滲透跟間諜除了等一下這個隔壁那個忠誠考核是隔壁現在在問的我待會去隔壁問但其中有一項就是說這個教學因為在怎麼做一些忠誠考核義務還不如說他在過程當中對這個的學習因為今天我不是說只是要抓比如說被滲透者而已我們還需要一個蠻關鍵的地方就是裡面的人要怎麼知道對方的手法是什麼那我之前在這一個外交學院的時候我就問就是說資安的部分因為之前有建議過然後也已經放進去了"},{"start":6703.934,"end":6729.22,"text":"就是跟資訊滲透有關的那人員滲透有關的如果未來也可以放進去我們那天大概也有一個初步的結論那再請部長就是跟外交學院再提醒一下這件事情的課程的一個整合可能會變得更重要那就是我跟委員說明賴總統提到的那個所謂的不管是反滲透反併吞那些決議我們外交部現在也在辦理當中所以除了資安人安的部分我們也會特別強調"},{"start":6730.76,"end":6753.005,"text":"因為這個對於外館本身的那些人員他們經常被騷擾又可能被滲透他等於是內外交迫所以這個部分如果能夠給人員更多的訓練的話他們可能更能夠去抵抗中國的威脅關稅的部分我想說很多人問過那我看有時間差不多我就先不問謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈培洋周圍上台諮詢接下來林楚英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":6768.017,"end":6769.12,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請林部長"},{"start":6778.479,"end":6789.286,"text":"部長好時間來到了這個四月底那我們知道這個二月份總預算復議之後現在國民黨開始針對總預算的解凍那麼我想從剛剛這個一路下來我想等一下可能蠻多國民黨的委員要詢問其實我也想問這個問題因為呢我確實也發現了國民黨最近包括他們剛剛黨團好像也開了個記者會那麼也開始在講"},{"start":6806.556,"end":6821.602,"text":"到底為什麼不預算解凍我先帶大家來看一下這個部分國民黨他們確實做了一個所謂預算解凍的倒數計時器我剛看了一個最新的他們現在已經說是總統公告總預算通過已經來到了31天"},{"start":6823.183,"end":6831.835,"text":"但是我想國民黨在講這個預算解凍的時候可能自己沒有搞清楚或是真的就是盲投盲表決連自己當時我們挑燈夜戰通過了什麼案子可能都不知道我來幫國民黨念一下這個是當時我們表決而且我們覺得萬萬不可的"},{"start":6840.366,"end":6848.489,"text":"在有關於外交部總體部本部的預算當中他說外交部的業務費要凍結本來是70後來手寫改成了50可是他說要等到執行30%之後才能申請解凍而且還要院會同意所以言下之意現在二月份才剛過而且總統公佈嘛那麼現在才幾天請問我們現在執行超過30%了嗎"},{"start":6869.649,"end":6877.375,"text":"剛剛還沒有如果做剛剛委員提的那個時間點的話是啊而且如果說要百分之三十才能申請的話那這不是開全天下玩笑嗎就是之前你們大筆一揮一動不是要七十就是要五十而且還說要執行了百分之三十那當時說這個凍結是為了要認真監督現在逼你們趕快提出來解凍那不就是逼你們在一個月之內趕快把百分之三十給花掉"},{"start":6899.433,"end":6902.603,"text":"請問部長可以這樣子來使用預算您會這樣用預算嗎"},{"start":6904.352,"end":6919.925,"text":"不會因為預算執行都要嚴格的監督因為其實三層啊我有12個月那就是要到4月才能夠接近三層嘛現在才4月嘛那當然而且這個應該是講以時間來算啦到了4月我們第一季才有機會把它過完嘛但是預算是可能用一季一季來執行的嗎我相信很多的預算"},{"start":6933.016,"end":6940.825,"text":"它其實是一整筆規劃出去對不對對 它不會說4月底就結束它可能要執行到年底但預算已經啟動所以這個是三層確實是很難去做這樣的一個要求啦"},{"start":6947.253,"end":6971.182,"text":"就是說才解凍 如果要的話因為立法院會期也有限制啊那我們的很多的項目我們無法啟動比如說跟國際的很多的這些合作案你不能等到這個所謂的執行30你現在就一執行他就會違反他已經幫我們凍結了而且我現在不能夠提案去解凍"},{"start":6972.482,"end":6986.412,"text":"所以根本無法啟動所以這根本就是邏輯上面的妙物所以為什麼本席想要利用這質詢的短短的幾分鐘時間讓部長好好回答因為等一下國民黨的委員上來你可能沒有辦法把這中間的邏輯講清楚因為這就是設計了一個完全讓你動彈不得所以這也是為什麼卓榮泰卓院長當時在跟人民宣講跟人民報告的時候特別提到了解凍就等同刪除"},{"start":7000.902,"end":7019.403,"text":"因為就像您剛剛所說的他說要執行百分之三十才能申請解凍但是就像您所說的有一些他一發包出去可能就超過三十了那你就不能動因為你一旦動你是不是就違反立法院的決議那所以面對這樣的狀況部長我們現在該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7022.768,"end":7041.843,"text":"如果要問我有沒有什麼亡羊補牢我們一個一個來解其中以前都是委員會審查就通過是不是可以請大院通過一個決議交回來委員會這樣子還可以爭取一點時間不然如果現在大院的議程還在總質詢還有專案的報告還有其他的這個是會沒有時間"},{"start":7049.749,"end":7069.024,"text":"大院來通過任何一項所以我覺得我有跟外交國防委員們報告因為這個真的是外交是不分黨派尤其是假設到現在這個所謂的凍結50%我們的外館到6月30號就要打烊的話這個真的傷害國家之大"},{"start":7070.404,"end":7081.676,"text":"那這樣也都是外館的約聘人員也不能用那些水電啊等等的話這個真的是已經迫在眉梢了啦必須要趕快為之處理對確實部長講出來重點就是在這個業務費的部分很多人都會認為說業務費不知道是什麼其實外館的水電房租租金日常"},{"start":7090.126,"end":7097.873,"text":"非執行業務的所用的其實通通都在這個所謂業務費然後更不要講說我們像國外旅費被刪了15%一般事務費被刪10%那麼媒體宣傳費更是全部的刪除喔我想剛剛前面沈博洋委員提到的我們過去有機會跟國際的媒體來做合作好好的來行銷跟宣傳台灣我想如果大家有去看YouTube就知道隨便打一個中國中國的旅遊"},{"start":7116.829,"end":7133.983,"text":"中國有許多他們狹下的官媒所做的這個什麼舌尖上的中國啦然後中國的好吃、好喝、好玩的這種行銷其實是遍佈整個網路世界我們其實真的單單只是就"},{"start":7134.884,"end":7148.342,"text":"不涉政治只是單獨的國家的形象宣傳旅遊可能都已經比他們來的弱勢如果現在宣傳費又全部刪除其實這個等於是等同讓我們在國際上面噤聲"},{"start":7150.825,"end":7166.276,"text":"那我們如果是這樣的話真的部長還是要想出一些方法另外我要講的就像剛剛部長你所提到的國外旅費的部分因為本席來國防外交委員會之後確實有許多到國外去也看到外管同仁非常的辛苦喔我就來講這個藍白亂砍刪除預算之後原定編定的10億5582萬元"},{"start":7172.861,"end":7193.627,"text":"因為以前面凍結50%然後呢可用的部分又有包括之前的15%被刪掉因為有所謂的統刪如果我隨便以一個畫大餅來給大家看你就會發現其實剩下的只剩下35%所以可用的大概是6億6千多萬不到6億7千萬那麼對於外館來講我們知道我們很多的外館"},{"start":7198.689,"end":7218.057,"text":"它其實是幅員遼闊然後很多的這些如果他們國外的差旅費被縮減到只剩下35%的時候那麼現在他們如何來進行他們的差旅或管務應該要如何來維持總不能一直都坐在辦公室裡面不出門吧"},{"start":7219.073,"end":7233.198,"text":"跟委員報告這影響例如我們要派人員到外館或是派的住館都需要用到這一筆費用也就是我們人事的調動會被冷凍起來"},{"start":7235.999,"end":7251.52,"text":"另外當然我們自己也許我們出訪我們盡量的減少一點但是立法委員也要出訪啊像最近委員會就會到美國嘛那這個也都是在這一筆預算裡面那我們也到底是不是應該等比例統三十五趴"},{"start":7252.581,"end":7276.227,"text":"還是怎麼樣其實這個很頭痛啦我們同仁就是想說怎麼去處理這些問題因為如果說等比例的話那都要一併35%嘛可是我們還是覺得立委出國其實對台灣來講是很有幫助的尤其到華府啊去替台灣發聲而且是跨黨派的所以這個部分我也是跟同仁講說我們就算再辛苦啦立委的部分我們怎麼樣讓大家能夠出榜為台灣來發聲"},{"start":7278.007,"end":7305.855,"text":"好我覺得喔其實在這個預算的凍結的過程中其實民進黨的立法委員同樣的也希望能夠爭取預算解凍但是如果以國民黨在我們當時院會當中表決所通過的很多他設下了許多你看不到的陷阱那麼如果你們沒有講清楚就會變成是你們好像不願意解凍或是故意不解凍但是就像我前面說的他們用一個一個的限制讓你們根本動彈不得"},{"start":7307.635,"end":7323.997,"text":"這個部分必須要對外講清楚因為民進黨也希望協助只是我們人數上 表決不贏但是論輸不能輸好嗎 部長好謝謝謝謝林柱英委員上台諮詢接下來有王定宇委員上台諮詢"},{"start":7336.496,"end":7365.409,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長好我今天有三個問題要請教我們部長因為今天是業務報告第一個就我們邦交關係以目前我們看這兩天在巴拉圭的媒體報導說洪都拉斯因為被中國騙了簡單一句話就中國承諾的事情不僅沒有做到"},{"start":7366.309,"end":7387.848,"text":"反而把中國廉價的貨品倒進去宏都拉斯的市場導致宏都拉斯的失業率不斷上升另外白蝦的部分過去佔他們出口的40%台灣的報價好 佔比也高一年跟他們大概有2億美金的交易額等等所以有傳出兩個消息一個是宏都拉斯的外交部長說想要來找台灣"},{"start":7390.39,"end":7409.425,"text":"他當時見利忘義中國的大撒幣大概只撒到他們的政治人物他們的民眾並沒有得到好處把頭賣收起 背誰受苦那現在他們的外交部長他知道國內的經濟局勢出問題了說想要回頭拜託跟台灣是不是能夠重啟經貿等等"},{"start":7410.646,"end":7423.169,"text":"那第二個是巴拉圭這個媒體報導說紅國有意向重新尋求跟我們台灣的所謂的邦交關係我不知道部長對這個事情有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":7423.678,"end":7449.221,"text":"是他們宏都拉斯的總統候選人之一有公開的表示 是他還不只一位啦有兩位 就是說如果他們獲選 當選為總統執政他們要恢復跟台灣的邦交 這個是他們講的那當然我們也密切關注另外就是說 我是從白瞎這個事情可以看到是我們幫忙宏都拉斯發展起來的 他有點忘恩負義"},{"start":7450.562,"end":7468.503,"text":"結果傷了他們的人民中國答應了都跳票而且還請消中國跳票國家其實可以整理出一個名冊了他跳票國家很多所以我們現在幫忙貝里斯發展白蝦而且現在我們業者都認為貝里斯的環境"},{"start":7469.744,"end":7489.563,"text":"來養殖白蝦比紅兔拉絲好很多坦白講我們幫了很多國家我們也不走大傻逼的路線了不花錢不走經濟文化外交但紅股有做這樣表述的時候我請教部長他們的外交部長雷伊娜或他們的經貿部長有沒有透過總是過去是邦交國有沒有透過關係尋求我國的協助"},{"start":7492.706,"end":7520.299,"text":"因為外交涉及到我想有一些是機密性我就不好意思在公開場合我另外私底下再跟委員來詳細報告他們公開有講嘛那當然我們也聽到了但是事實上當然不可能用這個方式去談到這個所謂的重新去進口的問題國家利益國家尊嚴還是要守住對就是說我們是一個好朋友但是不是潘納也就是說當你"},{"start":7521.88,"end":7541.3,"text":"做出對我們國家實質損害的時候坦白講我不吃白蝦都可以我不見得要買別人的絕對不可能買他的嘛這是國人的一個心情那我接著這個問題我請教我們部長目前全世界國家當中有沒有國家在尋求跟台灣重建或建立正式的外交關係"},{"start":7543.161,"end":7567.767,"text":"我們現在的所謂總和外交其實從以前的固邦發展到隆邦進一步要拓邦那當然我們要拓邦必須做好隆邦因為人家就會覺得跟台灣建交是可以學習台灣的發展模式這樣才會有助於固邦所以這個是三位一體所以委員講的沒有錯這個是理論嘛有些國家是很羨慕"},{"start":7569.448,"end":7584.768,"text":"跟我們建交的國家得到的發展經驗比如說像史瓦帝尼我們對他的幫助不是一般的援外我們已經在建構他的智慧城市然後醫院 農業其實這些都是周邊國家 像我們電網我是要請教就是說"},{"start":7587.091,"end":7611.066,"text":"我們當然我們台灣是全世界大概以外交的教科書來講是獨立的一章啦我們跟主流國家也許沒有正式的邦交關係但是跟主流國家像美國啦歐盟互動的關係甚至於比他們有邦交關係的還要密切這是一課我現在問的是另外一課就是說我們正式官方的邦交關係曾經有某太平洋的島國也曾經說過"},{"start":7612.367,"end":7628.117,"text":"那南美洲有兩個國家曾經有人表達過我現在正式詢問我們國家的外交部就是說就你現在了解有沒有國家我們要問哪一國在尋求跟我們重建或建立新的正式邦交關係"},{"start":7630.57,"end":7653.519,"text":"我們在朝這個目標啦 當然還沒有到成熟的階段不過我們當然希望能夠增加邦交國不過我們現在是先把我們的這個邦交國的發展模式做好因為以前在談這個是不是建交 涉及到是不是要什麼樣的條件我們現在就是沒條件 我們這個條件就是我們在我們建交國家發展的模式"},{"start":7654.159,"end":7679.349,"text":"都可以適用在未來跟我們建交的國家因為我問這個問題是2758號決議文在世界各主流國家美國還有很多州政府英國啦或者義大利的外委會啦都通過2758號決議文的真相是不涉及台灣而2758號決議文是當年中國建構所謂的一中不管是政策或原則的法理基礎"},{"start":7680.329,"end":7704.334,"text":"這個法理基礎你去看那個原文根本沒有處理台灣的代表權問題所以美國相當積極告訴各國說根據這個決議各國應該可以跟台灣發展關係也是台灣參加國際組織的法律基礎這個是在法律戰上面所以這幾年的2758號決議文演變到後面要展現出來的成果就是有些國家縱使他跟中國有邦交"},{"start":7705.034,"end":7731.676,"text":"他也是可以跟台灣邦交另外一個就是國際的組織特別是聯合國轄下的組織台灣並沒有被任何國家代表包括中國這個法理基礎現在全世界澳洲先通過決議了所以我用這一個基礎才會問部長目前有沒有國家他們未必要跟中國斷交可是尋求跟台灣重建相當程度的外交關係有還是沒有或者說現在未成熟不能表達"},{"start":7733.463,"end":7756.986,"text":"在法理上剛剛委員講以2758號就是這個解釋文現在得到美國還有友邦的支持大家一定要清楚這要做很多在做溝通宣傳嘛讓大家瞭解不是中共講的2758號就一中原則然後台灣就中華人民共和國這個是已經我講我們在做一些國際上面的攻防嘛可是另外來講有些國家他知道跟台灣"},{"start":7757.907,"end":7786.868,"text":"建立邦交是好的可是這個是有空間但現實上是什麼可能他們的執政黨或他們的精英或他們因為被控制包括一些債務陷阱整個國家幾乎都被中國控制他就很難再改變那這個時候怎麼樣去尋求外交關係的拓展我們當然也會評估另外也就是包括像美日一些國家對他們來講也是重要的戰略位置的地方我想在中美洲"},{"start":7787.688,"end":7809.341,"text":"委員就知道我想這個盧比奧國務卿去之後我想在中美洲我們我們現在只剩下瓜地馬拉跟這個貝里斯可是很多國家都會覺得說現在美國的政策對西半球的重視那台灣所在之地啊這也可以加強跟美國關係這個都是正面的也許有些東西正在cooking當中不便"},{"start":7810.101,"end":7833.274,"text":"但我覺得這一塊其實是從法理基礎到實質的案例也許是一個努力的方向他要抗壓性我們要協助他避免中國的經濟脅迫我們中國的排山倒海這個是會讓一些國家有所顧忌所以我們要跟美國起來push back我請教一個態度的問題就是說我們在外交部這邊曾經編列協助烏克蘭的經費"},{"start":7836.596,"end":7862.325,"text":"那目前美國對烏克蘭的態度川普政府對烏克蘭的態度確實有很明顯的不同那我們不替別國詮釋他們的外交政策我們現在回過來review我們國家的部分那烏克蘭當然過去他們跟中國關係不錯但是也看到澤倫斯基總統這兩天開始揭露中國軍演俄羅斯甚至有中國傭兵在烏克蘭戰場打仗也抓了兩個戰俘開了國際記者會"},{"start":7865.286,"end":7875.314,"text":"我請教一下我們國家目前的態度對於烏克蘭的人道援助是會繼續還是會跟隨著美國的節奏做一個重新的評估"},{"start":7877.065,"end":7900.835,"text":"我們還是會從人道援助持續在支持烏克蘭包括像城市發展很多重建像最近智慧城市展很多烏克蘭的市長來其實他們也面對很大壓力所以中央政府受制於這個國際現實但是地方政府就有空間那現在澤倫斯基已經公開講了事實上去年的這個NATO的這個高峰會就已經點名"},{"start":7902.356,"end":7915.725,"text":"俄武戰爭俄國背後的所謂的Decisive Enabler關鍵的推手就是中共啊 中國啊那現在烏克蘭面對到 甚至中國也有人去參軍這個是我們當然希望"},{"start":7920.788,"end":7945.716,"text":"我簡單講我們希望烏克蘭能夠不要去因為中國的因素限制了跟台灣的來往他們過去被中國這樣子簽了所謂的他們簽了好多條約我只問一件事情就是目前跟烏克蘭地方政府的交流持續人道援助持續但是新的局勢的變化烏克蘭的中央政府跟我方到底有沒有開始接觸還是保持跟原來一樣"},{"start":7947.729,"end":7964.053,"text":"其實接觸是有限,我們就是透過第三國因為其實在中東歐的國家也很關心烏克蘭跟台灣有一些合作,我們有一些援外或有一些互動當然也透過第三國好,我們有機會再談謝謝,謝謝部長謝謝王定一委員上台諮詢那待會兒辛曉欣委員執行完畢後休息五分鐘然後我們請馬文清委員上台諮詢"},{"start":7983.887,"end":7984.868,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長部長早"},{"start":8000.461,"end":8016.501,"text":"外交部其實在很多的互動上面應該主動一點應該是比較好啦過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣部長剛剛有委員提到就是我們預算凍結的部分我們現在如果要提出解凍最大的困難在哪裡"},{"start":8018.813,"end":8036.945,"text":"我想因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議最大的困難告訴我們最大的困難因為過去每年都有解凍的程序部長您也擔任過立法委員現在跟過去如果有不同現在最大的困難在哪裡如果現在要提出解凍的話"},{"start":8037.731,"end":8065.244,"text":"就是有一些規定比如說業務要執行三層啊然後這個因為洞協一半然後因為立法院會期也可能五月底那這個時間的壓縮在五月底之前像現在都可以提出來過去其實就三層的那個規定我們有一些業務是還不符合可以提出解凍的標準三層的規定到現在我們一年12個月現在已經快要五月了如果再一個月大概就六個月就半年了"},{"start":8066.104,"end":8094.794,"text":"我們到現在如果連30%都還執行不了第一可能我們的執行力有問題第二我們的預算幅編太多所以它足以硬硬所以你到現在連30%都還沒用到因為它的標準就很簡單它就是30%你就可以提出解凍如果這樣都還做不到我能想到的大概就這兩個理由因為你還沒送出來因為有些國際合作案你一簽下去之後"},{"start":8096.072,"end":8110.104,"text":"他沒有辦法分階段來執行Yes No 那個就是1跟0的問題我想您很清楚我說您擔任過立法委員所謂的30%一定是你一般的常態業務如果你提出來如果這個被"},{"start":8111.645,"end":8126.438,"text":"在野黨或者甚至執政黨有意見的話立法院有意見的話其實都可以再做說明可是連提都還沒有提這38%達不到我就剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的你在國際合作國際合作你也可以進行到30%啊不管你是哪一部分"},{"start":8129.941,"end":8138.467,"text":"所謂的不確定性是你在執行完成以後才會有不確定性可是你在計劃的當下當你在要這個預算的時候你沒有告訴我們立法院說這個有不確定性我們甚至可以不要編是這樣嗎如果30%都還沒有達到我們現在已經過了快要已經五月了這個部分請我們外交部自己本身去做完檢討以後為什麼不能夠提出來如果30%都還辦不到那是執行不利"},{"start":8159.66,"end":8163.122,"text":"這是要跟外交部提醒的不要把它再推到在野黨上面那另外今天部長也有提到我們現在根據外交部的消息南非政府已經在要求"},{"start":8174.93,"end":8182.096,"text":"台灣駐南非的代表處在三月底之前要遷離首都並且將住處甚至降級而且更名這個部分我們直接被台北我們本來是台北聯絡代表處現在直接被改名成為台北商務辦事處這個部分部長在說明的時候有提到說我們目前還是運作正常我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常"},{"start":8203.112,"end":8218.118,"text":"因為我們甚至在被降級的部分它本來是準大使的這樣的一個地位那你現在變成這樣子我們對等措施是什麼我們也看不到"},{"start":8219.895,"end":8245.722,"text":"因為除了牽管或降級或涉及到一些名稱我們都一一有在就是說除了我們拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外也在協商中那以剛剛委員講的其實他雖然有那樣子說但實質上我們目前還是按照原來來運作除了沒有牽管以外就是有一些"},{"start":8246.722,"end":8261.359,"text":"外交上面的互動啊並不是如他們自己先前有些宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情那這代表有空間所以有空間我們據理力爭也希望說能夠讓他知道利弊得失啦"},{"start":8262.2,"end":8276.226,"text":"他國內外現在的壓力也很大那他也應該會開始去考慮啊如果單方的行為可能會引致的後果部長我們現在已經被直接改名了他要求我們簽我們還沒簽沒有錯可是我們已經被改名那你從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處我說其實他在等級上面已經差了一大截準大使變成我們一個只是一個貿易的一個代表處那另外"},{"start":8289.411,"end":8296.656,"text":"目前實質上還是維持原來的關係那我們以前什麼名稱都不重要為什麼我們在國際上面會想要不擋所以如果我們要讓全體人民有共識你應該很清楚的讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的然後是我們要持續的力爭而不是告訴我們運作正常可是我們看到的它是不正常"},{"start":8316.59,"end":8318.871,"text":"因為他直接把我們歸類我們現在已經四五月了他已經把我們改掉了嘛你一點辦法都沒有我們說要對等的措施也看不到他直接把我們降級以外而且他把我們歸類成國際組織"},{"start":8334.278,"end":8337.041,"text":"他把我們歸類成國際組織我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有可是我們被改變了那這個部分我想要請教的是因為就這個問題的延伸我們目前還看不到不過我們請"},{"start":8351.915,"end":8367.43,"text":"外交部可以提供相關的書面資料我們要怎麼樣去因應因為我們看到的部長剛剛也提到說像南非的住管是我們的資產那我們過去有許多的錢利都是管處直接就被沒收而且還移交給中國"},{"start":8369.352,"end":8385.614,"text":"使用我們看到很多的案例像巴拿馬那時候我們在住巴拿馬的那個使館我們大概有2200萬美元這已經大概台幣7億多了可是在當時直接就移交給中國"},{"start":8386.835,"end":8409.425,"text":"那另外還有多米尼加斷交的時候我們的很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產像薩爾瓦多我們赤字3000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管然後做其他的公共用途還有非洲的案例有聖多美"},{"start":8410.523,"end":8424.778,"text":"普林西比這個也是我們有很多的國會大廈啊或者他們原住的總統府等等其實那時候大概也都被他們要求我們台方人員都必須要撤離管社還有布吉納法所還有像"},{"start":8426.179,"end":8437.102,"text":"索羅門群島還有吉里巴斯等等我念到的這些其實我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭一定會爭取可是我們從頭到現在看起來只要被拿走的我們就拿不回來了而且好像也沒有發生的機會"},{"start":8444.224,"end":8456.508,"text":"也沒有特別的管道那像南非這個也是因為他已經逐步逐步從去年十月到現在又說三月那現在沒有明確的日期可是他已經直接就這樣做了對我們都是在國格上面一個很大的損害而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響甚至我們未來像這樣的一個管產或者像我們台商的這些利益他怎麼辦管產的部分部長您怎麼看"},{"start":8473.103,"end":8494.992,"text":"因為他沒有辦法就是如期的迫使我們簽管現在我們還在使用中那我們也會據理力爭那會窮盡一些方法那他也感受到壓力來自於內外的所以這個時候有空間我們繼續協商我們要捍衛我們的館產因為我們也找了律師做了研究他們也找了有律師跟這個"},{"start":8497.153,"end":8513.304,"text":"有關的所以我想這個這個大家研究完就會知道就是這個財產的所屬第一個財產的所屬我剛剛念了一堆所有的國家其實只要跟我們斷交以後他幾乎我們都拿不回來所以我們在還可以因應的時候你要怎麼樣確保這是一個方向因為另外一個"},{"start":8518.007,"end":8520.75,"text":"部分就是紐時的報導就是說川普他原理要簽行政命令要大幅改組國務院而且要砍非洲行動跟關閉當地大使館還有領事館"},{"start":8533.542,"end":8537.064,"text":"那我們在這個部分因為我們說對於南非的談判我們是找美國日本甚至還有G7的國家幫我們發聲然後幫我們說話可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方甚至有點是驕傲因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展"},{"start":8554.994,"end":8570.15,"text":"可是像這樣子的一個狀況美國現在突然有這樣子的一個做法這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎剛剛部長說我們所有的狀況裡都有做沙盤推演這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎有 因為當然美國的政府"},{"start":8570.791,"end":8595.448,"text":"因為國務卿Rubio也剛剛有表示並沒有說先前傳的那樣但是就算是有什麼樣變化我們台灣在非洲的外交關係就是我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交然後我們另外有五個代表處持續會發展那再來就是跟南非他自己現在面對到的就是美國把他的駐美大使趕走"},{"start":8596.689,"end":8612.939,"text":"驅除出境 列為不受歡迎人物阿哥啊 就是說非洲這個所謂成長的機會法案是關係著包括南非所以他們為南非內部有很多的討論要不要屈從中國因為南非腸道他的外交自主嘛還是說應該跟台灣之間的關係應該要修好"},{"start":8618.482,"end":8622.063,"text":"對因為你剛剛提的是美國我說美國現在有一個這樣的做法那美國會怎麼做那是美國一個大國他有辦法去跟南非或者整個歐洲抗衡我們現在沒有辦法我們自己的邦交國我們自己鞏固沒有錯可是像南非我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題我們不要再多做掩飾如果萬一因為"},{"start":8640.831,"end":8643.013,"text":"原來還有美國可以幫我們講話或者其他的你說G7就是歐洲啦其他的國家可以幫我們講話現在顯然美國都已經跟他交惡的情況之下我們要怎麼樣自保這個外交部要先想清楚而且你的沙盤推演裡面這個應該要列入重點項目因為我們已經沒有靠山了"},{"start":8661.71,"end":8664.311,"text":"所以這樣有可能我們很多的資產還有我們台商還有我們原來在那裡多年所做的努力其實都有可能會化為烏有這個部分外交部是應該要提前應應的你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分好不好"},{"start":8676.755,"end":8685.245,"text":"好我會都親自主持那另外因為剛剛有提到震災的部分不好意思主席再跟您接一點點時間震災的捐款剛剛部長也提到任何的捐款都應該要嚴格的監督因為這個都是大家"},{"start":8694.995,"end":8699.097,"text":"捐出來而且都是救命錢所以非常的重要所以在這裡對於緬甸政災的捐款或者每一筆他一分一毫其實都牽涉到大家的愛心那過去我們在對於烏克蘭的一個提供的一些資助還有包括我們之前也提過在"},{"start":8718.739,"end":8723.764,"text":"立法院也提到的就是有國內成立的商會民間自己成立的商會他們公開募款說要捐給敘利亞的這個善款還有之前我們用透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的這幾個部分我們請外交部提供現在進行的一個狀況不管你的查核或者我們後續的執行的結果"},{"start":8740.939,"end":8761.108,"text":"比如說我們透過捷克的NGO的這個組織然後捐給烏克蘭的這個部分因為已經大概過快一年了吧這個進度到底怎麼樣執行的成果到底怎麼樣啊到底送了哪些物資也希望我們用一樣的嚴格的監督的態度來面對它好不好好請提供資料書面資料謝謝好謝謝謝謝馬文君委員上台諮詢接下來有許巧欣委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8777.363,"end":8779.565,"text":"謝謝主席我們請林佳龍部長部長好我也好我想現在大家最關心的都是在這個川普的這個關稅戰裡面雖然延了這個90天可是這代表說我們爭取90天的時間但每一分每一秒其實都是非常珍貴的那我想要先問一下我們目前談判的窗口是美國貿易代表USTR還是美國的財長"},{"start":8810.245,"end":8820.991,"text":"大家其實都很擔心的是說因為川普他們的政權的特殊性跟過去美國他在拜登時期是不太一樣的我們針對這個USTR來溝通的話那美國財長這邊那我們有沒有什麼方式能夠比較快的來接近他們"},{"start":8830.909,"end":8848.303,"text":"我們有多元的管道除了美國貿易代表署以外當然其他的方面我們透過各個管道也都在傳達但是我們現在是用USTR作為因為你要進入到項目的談判所以我問你一個問題先前我們傳出來說我們是在第一批名單的時候指的是在USTR是第一批名單"},{"start":8856.81,"end":8865.62,"text":"然后先前有说我们有视讯会议然后谈得非常的顺畅也是指的在美国贸易代表USTR这个部分吗"},{"start":8866.246,"end":8890.261,"text":"USTR都有在裡面因為它是最主要的主管機關對 所以我的意思是說我們在優先名單裡面那是在哪一個的優先名單裡面因為美國政政這個部分它等於是有不同的管道嘛您剛也談到了所以我要問的事情是我們當初像民眾說我們在第一批跟以色列一起而且我們做過視訊會議了相談甚歡這個部分我們所接頭的是哪一個單位"},{"start":8896.192,"end":8916.62,"text":"美國川普政府他們基於他們的主管跟分工那都已經對接了所以不是USTRUSTR是最重要的因為到談判的階段具體的項目一定是USTR因為如果您所說的是我們跟川普政府已經接頭了那就是指的是美國財長囉"},{"start":8918.561,"end":8923.706,"text":"他們當然會協調 我想不只是說財長 或者是商務部 或者是國務院我想美國政府也是一體的 那既然是說那組團 因為台美之間長期就是透過我們的OTN跟他的USTR對接 因為這裡面有很多技術系統所以這個我們當時說跟以色列的第一批是由USTR這裡主導的嗎?"},{"start":8941.501,"end":8950.628,"text":"是好那因為呢我們就覺得很奇怪我們大家都以為我們在第一批的談判裡面可是呢美國財長這邊呢說的所謂的優先名單五個國家裡面卻沒有談到我們我們可以看到談判時程跟各國的立場其實是日本韓國英國澳洲跟印度他們都已經目標在六週之內或者說最近來跟美國財長這邊來溝通我想要問的是這兩個有什麼差別"},{"start":8970.481,"end":8980.893,"text":"就是我們當時所說的我們在第一批而且已經視訊而且已經談得很好那跟現在所說的美國首批貿易談判對象的五國六國裡面沒有台灣差異在哪裡可不可以幫我們說明一下"},{"start":8987.401,"end":9014.032,"text":"因為他列舉這五國並沒有排斥其他國家就像台灣或以色列對但是他是首批嘛我們已經放榜了嘛所以不是現在才上榜我們現在上榜啊我們就有在談啊所以說現在進行是所以首批貿易對談判對象在日本、韓國、英國、澳洲、印度他們其實不是首批我們其實比他們還要更前面他現在說等五國五國等啦不只這五國啊"},{"start":9014.412,"end":9039.033,"text":"所以我們也包含在這裡面只是他沒有寫出來優先名單也在第一批我們也在第一批所以應該是日本韓國英國澳洲印度加台灣以及其他國家是這樣說嗎對所以你的意思是說美國財長說我們首批貿易談判對象漏掉了台灣沒有漏掉他們已經宣布了就是台灣就是在談"},{"start":9039.653,"end":9047.676,"text":"沒有啊因為財長所說的東西跟美國USDR所說的內容跟現在上面也沒有以色列啊上面也沒有談嘛因為談判喔他不會是由財長單獨去談嘛他是美國川普政府他盡力分工主管然後看哪一個"},{"start":9055.739,"end":9071.737,"text":"這個非常有趣就是說在川普任內的體制跟過去有點不一樣很多事情是美國財長他說了算真正跟美國財長有溝通到的像美國財長他每天都有很多川普相關的發言才是最近身到川普身邊能夠去做談判的"},{"start":9073.499,"end":9100.194,"text":"如果我們走的都是USTR這個路線說我們在USTR裡面排的是首位並不等同於在我們美國財長這邊也就是他真正正式的談判裡面排的是首位那我們應該要怎麼樣讓兩者之間能夠結合在一起呢各位媒體這是第一批的名單就是有台灣那因為這次談除了USTR談的我們一般的所謂的這個貿易涉及的跟關稅有關其實"},{"start":9101.295,"end":9118.621,"text":"除了對等關稅以外也有那個擴充貿易法案裡面的232條那也有其他的跟投資是啦但是我們現在談的我現在談的就只有在川普的關稅戰的這個部分而已其他的部分我們先不談我們先談關稅戰因為國人最關心的是關稅戰嘛"},{"start":9122.762,"end":9139.156,"text":"那我們可以看到日本韓國英國澳洲跟印度他們基本上都是很多人他們都比如說已經排定比如說像是當時韓國是下周嘛然後呢這個英國的話是兩國官員已經數週會談那我們看日本日本是他們有這個"},{"start":9146.603,"end":9155.089,"text":"經濟再生擔當大臣斥責量16號到18號訪美那我想問一下我們目前在川普的這個關稅案的談判是政務委員鄭麗君那請問副院長副院長對不起那請問他什麼時候會赴美談判"},{"start":9165.487,"end":9181.574,"text":"都已經有在洽談談判的時間地點跟方式我只能講說這個同步平行在進行中那我們以台灣跟日本來比較好了這個是在4月17號的時候我們可以看到美國總統川普"},{"start":9183.155,"end":9209.1,"text":"他祭出對等關稅日本經濟再生大臣赤澤亮到美國去談判那他就想說呢用川普自己的個人帳號寫說呢有重大的進展也就是呢日本派出了他們相對應的這個官員到美國進行談判那我要請問外交部的就是那我們台灣接下來會有官員赴美與川普進行談判嗎"},{"start":9210.829,"end":9229.425,"text":"也會也會所以會像這個畫面長的這樣子我不知道川普因為他是中間跑進來的你說誰是中間跑進來的我沒辦法決定因為他的這個風格很特別但是我們的規劃目標是像日本這樣子的型態嗎還是我們有其他的目標型態"},{"start":9230.146,"end":9249.426,"text":"現在跟委員報告我們不管是總統講的台美經貿這個深化的路徑圖或者是我們先前透過視訊雙方面進行已經彙整聚焦的項目都在進行中進行中那請問在什麼時候時間點上面因為談判涉及到雙方面啦當然當然我們知道"},{"start":9250.647,"end":9267.867,"text":"機密性那也希望不受干擾能夠順利的進行我們今天也沒有問說你們談的是什麼項目這個交給你們自己去處理但是我想要問的是既然您剛剛已經講到了有這麼多的談判項目都已經有非常重大的進展那最後兩個問題一個是我們會不會赴美"},{"start":9271.25,"end":9299.122,"text":"談判就是公開赴美談判第二個事情是公開赴美談判之後那什麼時候會對國人宣布我們最後的談判結果兩個問題我們都有這樣的準備赴美談判那因為有90天那策略上的怎麼樣去進行因為包括那個美日談判對我們來講也是很重要的參考我們怎麼樣有更多的資訊去對我們最有利的談判"},{"start":9299.762,"end":9318.647,"text":"那我們要了解美方他現在有一些安排那我們也做好準備所以你剛講的就是說我們會依照這樣的一個我們跟美方談好的節奏來進行目前都是溝通順暢也都按照雙方面的一個準備在進行中所以我們在90天以內就是說從他宣布關稅的90天以內會向國人公佈我們所兩邊會談的最終結果嗎"},{"start":9326.189,"end":9341.697,"text":"一定要公佈啊 我們當然希望越早沒有 因為它有可能會在延期嘛但是在第一批裡面 其他國家在談啦我們也要謹慎的很注意去了解所以我們非常確定我們在90天以內嘛儘管它有可能再往後延長的話我們也是鎖定在90天內 是嗎對 我們當然是以這樣做準備OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝謝小新委員上台諮詢現在休息五分鐘 五分鐘後繼續詢問"},{"start":9674.045,"end":9674.065,"text":"嗯"},{"start":9719.025,"end":9724.268,"text":"好 現在開始開會接下來由我們黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":9749.823,"end":9764.107,"text":"部長你那個辦公室的機要有沒有依法辦,特殊安全查核?我的辦公室的機要,有。那是不是應該依法要辦?依法是不是要辦?"},{"start":9767.194,"end":9792.272,"text":"我們是要辦就是按照他的那個他的負責的業務跟職級是 好 來一般的跟特殊的現在我今天在司法法治委員會問那司法法治委員會啊調查局局長剛剛跟我說因為之前吳釗燮帶在身邊十幾年的親信何仁傑帶到外交部的時候我問"},{"start":9794.059,"end":9799.688,"text":"依法是不是要辦特殊安全查核?對阿居局長給我的答案是沒有辦"},{"start":9800.865,"end":9825.356,"text":"這件事情你有掌握嗎?有你有掌握嗎?是我問吊牙局的時候,剛剛吊牙局局長,我也不曉得他是不是不高興他說他們是被動,用人機關給他們,他們才會去查核那這個是用人機關的問題那如果依法要查核,卻沒有查核現在外交部有理解為什麼當初沒有送給吊牙局辦特殊查核嗎?"},{"start":9826.531,"end":9853.602,"text":"我請我們展開政風調查那目前這是兩回事啦第一件事情因為部長你了解我的個性我不喜歡把問題糊在一起談談不清楚今天我在外交國防我問的關鍵問題是他告訴我第一個依法要查核第二個外交部沒有送給他們查核第三個所以沒有查核現在我的問題來了外交部為什麼沒有送給調查局要辦查核"},{"start":9855.335,"end":9867.885,"text":"這個是我現在的問題因為我那時候還不是部長嘛我了解所以我剛才問你說這個狀況你有沒有掌握嘛有有嘛是那所以現在為什麼沒有送給調查局辦查核你不知道"},{"start":9868.943,"end":9887.345,"text":"我知道因為我一看到這個是有一些問題存在嘛所以當外界在詢問我的時候我知道說這件事情在偵辦中我雖然沒有對外講我知道問題的關鍵包括這一點是那你現在問題的關鍵沒有刑事偵辦交給刑事偵辦這個我們大家都尊重啊"},{"start":9888.166,"end":9910.793,"text":"但現在問題是在行政程序上今天吊牙局是在隔壁啊 釋法法治委員會啊大聲喊說那是因為外交部沒有送給他們啊所以我現在才請教你嘛你剛剛說你掌握了狀況嘛外交部沒有送嘛那這件事誰要負責任他曾經有查過 那是很久以前啦那是照外交部來講 應該要辦理對嘛 那為什麼沒有送 誰要負責任 這是我的問題"},{"start":9915.254,"end":9923.204,"text":"所以我就啟動了調查 內部調查就我的部分就政風調查 包括這一點也要進行調查需要調查多久"},{"start":9924.58,"end":9953.804,"text":"這個就看我們政鋒來來來 請政鋒 需要調查多久這個事情很簡單啊應該要送 當初沒有送誰決定不要送 誰要負責任這個事情要調查很久 這個有這麼困難嗎來 請報告委員 我們在4月14號4月12號 接到部長室的指示我們就開始啟動調查了然後目前已經調查到將近告一段落然後我們現在在做資料的整理"},{"start":9954.85,"end":9964.685,"text":"什麼時候可以調查完我們努力盡快的在希望能夠在這一周能夠把它做出來這一周完成嘛 來請部長"},{"start":9966.479,"end":9990.509,"text":"部長我再強調一次,司法偵辦當然尊重司法偵辦嘛我們所有的社會大眾也會看嘛看說當初黃曲榮這個不肖的商人為了錢在那邊搞共諜然後幫中共發展組織那個組織的網絡有多廣現在浮上水面的只有三個人嘛"},{"start":9991.289,"end":10009.375,"text":"那但是看黃曲榮他做的時間接觸範圍的廣度恐怕涉案的範圍不僅止於此但無論如何我們尊重司法檢調機關的偵辦社會大眾也都會檢視但我現在回到的是外交部的部分部長請你不要誤會"},{"start":10010.495,"end":10035.121,"text":"你那時候還不是部長,我不會要你承擔不屬於你的責任這是我向來的問政風格那但是,現在既然您是部長,也只有您在這個位置上可以告訴全體國人說,當初為什麼該送沒有送那第二個,針對這件事情沒有送到底誰應該要負什麼樣子的責任針對這件事情,部長"},{"start":10037.042,"end":10044.472,"text":"剛剛說這個禮拜調查會完畢嘛那接下來就行政責任啦行政責任就責的部分部長需要多久"},{"start":10046.735,"end":10070.869,"text":"我想我們 但是最快的時間嘛 因為這個事情這個都形容詞啦 他說這個禮拜會做完嘛那我說他做完了以後 接下來行政究責 行政上要怎麼處理就是部長您的權爭了嗎我們會加速來進行 因為我要了解 看到他的調查報告涉及 因為我希望他能夠更周延啦沒有關係啦 因為他那麼久的時間涉及人員業務 部長 我只跟你說啦 禁書辦理 禁書辦理"},{"start":10073.691,"end":10090.667,"text":"那第二個事情是這個事情您是什麼時候知道的我是在這個就是有委員去質疑是所謂一個核心的到那個時間點才知道嗎對專門委員我才知道"},{"start":10093.356,"end":10114.585,"text":"沒關係 接下來的問題會進入非常深的深水區那可能也不是你可以回答沒關係我今天詢問你的問題就到此為止就先打住但我期待喔政風的說這個禮拜可以做完嘛那我希望你要展現一個態度給國人看"},{"start":10115.834,"end":10140.679,"text":"我們按照目前的安全查核機制該送沒有送這件事情一定要有人負責任那就等您看完政府公司調查的報告的時候下一次下一次我希望你看完這個報告了以後盡速的追究責任從嚴辦理可以嗎我們一定憑公辦理好謝謝黃國昌委員上台資訊接下來有廖先祥委員上台資訊"},{"start":10151.65,"end":10153.571,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請我們的林部長部長 早安之前裴洛西來的時候有一些可能錯誤的資訊就提到說我們外交部有花錢去請裴洛西來那是查核中心有查核是沒有但是我們外交部每年有依照美國法定的規範"},{"start":10176.533,"end":10191.525,"text":"每個月編列10萬美金去跟這個美國的政治的公安公司來進行對美的遊說就是過去每個月10萬那一年就大概3000多萬的台幣那今年還是一樣保持一樣的規模嗎我來請我們北美司長因為這個詳細的數字會業務範圍來請"},{"start":10195.866,"end":10210.976,"text":"是 我們今年到目前為止 聘用的公關跟往年的規模是差不多的差不多 對 目前是差不多一個月差不多十萬嘛 美金這個數字的話 我可能需要再verify一下"},{"start":10211.556,"end":10235.155,"text":"好沒問題那除了這些給公安公司依照法令給付的依照美國法令給付之外那譬如說最近這個龐培奧美國國務卿有來台灣嘛那有媒體披露說有民間的公司有花錢邀請他過來那我想跟部長確認民間公司花的這筆資金跟我們外交部有沒有任何的關係"},{"start":10236.83,"end":10258.851,"text":"因為是不是有花什麼資金因為前後的有一些查核好像也不太一致不過我們沒有沒有就是民間公司怎麼做他們的事就算他有花錢我們不太了解也跟我們外交部沒有任何的金錢上面的金流關係我想確認一下因為每年我就大概了解一下規模金額的一個規模那如果說每年就是這筆公關"},{"start":10260.383,"end":10284.986,"text":"費用的話,那三千多萬台幣嘛大家會期待多這三千多萬的一個遊說費用能夠在適時的這個在應該要發揮作用的時候能夠發揮作用嘛那我想跟部長確認,那現在美國川普上台就任之後那剛剛很多人討論到了一個經濟問題那我們每年花費的這個公關的費用目的是為了要遊說嘛有沒有在這時候派上用場"},{"start":10286.759,"end":10310.985,"text":"我們長期對美國的不管公關或是說這些諮詢都在進行中效果也都良好我想當然我們是因為理念相近他們其實美國的法律非常嚴格的他們的政治人物也都有遵行所以這一點倒是請放心那效果來講我想我們如果從推崇效果不一定直接相關啦但是透過各種的管道去就是能夠這個對美國"},{"start":10313.726,"end":10340.333,"text":"因為美國是個民主國家他行政哪有國會當然就是都以合法的方式去就是去進行公關對 我說對象對美嘛 對美是一個輪廓 大大的輪廓嘛那現在好像是因為現在大家都會認為說好像川普也沒什麼在理財院或眾院嘛常常就是一人講的話 然後就當作政策宣布嘛所以我要確認一下這筆錢是"},{"start":10342.483,"end":10367.789,"text":"主要的對象是可能白宮參院或是眾院你們的重心是在哪邊我們的美處跟公關公司他們會有最好的判斷因為效果是都是很好的那這件事情你有沒有跟公關公司說就是台灣現在面臨到這麼大的一個經貿問題那請他們在公關上面給予協助那他們有沒有有一些具體的您能講我不知道你能不能講有沒有具體的一個反饋"},{"start":10369.676,"end":10388.411,"text":"有,因為美國這個是個多元民主的國家,它的遊說也有法律的依據都是依這樣辦理,那一定是效果是有的那他們怎麼,那既然是依法,那這部分會,像美國就會公開金額或什麼嗎?那內容會不會公開?這個委屈依照美國法令辦理會公開嗎?可以公開嗎?"},{"start":10392.959,"end":10414.617,"text":"就是該揭露就揭露 沒有揭露的 我們在執行單位他們一定有他們的判斷既然可以揭露的話 那有沒有我們這邊可以明確的實質的內容委員都拿一點 如果有比較具體的 您希望能夠垂詢我們來看怎麼樣了解因為這樣子比較籠統一點"},{"start":10418.259,"end":10442.707,"text":"經貿問題我們公關公司有沒有具體的協助我們外交部我們中華民國政府我舉個例子來講當然比如說我們台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判過程那怎麼樣得到更多的支持這都需要很多資訊那他們透過這個遊說政治的一個法律的依據去進行公關的顧問或者是怎麼樣去溝通所以效果都是良好的"},{"start":10442.947,"end":10465.388,"text":"我想其實經費只要是合法的我們都不會有太多意見只要符合美國法令那就政治公關的工作或許跟我們國內的政治環境不太一樣當然它是合法但是我們也希望說這筆錢每年3000多萬給了美國公關公司那它就要有相對應的一些我們需要它的時候它必須要有相對應的一些功能來協助我們的政府"},{"start":10466.63,"end":10473.487,"text":"對 就是一定的要求那你希望說我們過去可能大家認得說我們對面的管道不是很多"},{"start":10475.263,"end":10500.415,"text":"很多啦我跟委員包括韓國瑜院長能夠進入到國會參加總統就職典禮這也不是一般公關其實我們跟美國的關係是真的除了這種公關以外最主要是我們的理念一致我們美出的經營真的是包括所有的這些可能性都不是金錢可以去評估的也是像美國政治它是你要講道理的"},{"start":10501.435,"end":10522.795,"text":"我們就期待我們立法院通過的預算 給我們外交部用那錢既然花了 那就希望在適當的時候 要有適當的一個效果我們不斷地來精進那透過我們已經委託的機關 那請他們用力的協助 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝廖安的支持謝謝廖新祥委員上台諮詢 接下來有王宏威委員上台諮詢"},{"start":10529.98,"end":10532.842,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請林部長好 部長請問一下 是就是外交部所任用的這個一等資義那麼如果進外交部的話 要不要做忠誠查核 依法要不要做"},{"start":10553.436,"end":10562.536,"text":"呃 要 要嘛 應該要一般查核 特殊查核 看他的業務啦 負責的範圍但是一等之一 一等之一需要做忠誠查核 特殊查核嘛"},{"start":10564.745,"end":10584.281,"text":"就是這個有主管機關嘛像就是說它涉及的業務是有這樣的一個機密性應該要送特殊查核因為這是根據公務人員的任用法第四條只要是你出任或者是調任或者是在任都要辦理相關的查核"},{"start":10585.27,"end":10605.722,"text":"那我因為今天在我們國防就在隔壁國防在我們司法法治委員會有委員問到問到就是涉及共諜案的何仁杰因為大家都知道他歷任了包含國安會還有外交部那所以調查局的說法是說何仁杰他在任職這個"},{"start":10608.382,"end":10633.353,"text":"國安會的時候曾經查核過一次但是他之後再去調任到其他的機關譬如總統府跟外交部都沒有查核所以請問一下如果說我們先不管總統府的部分如果是他到國安會然後他再進外交部是不是外交部應該與查核才對是"},{"start":10636.167,"end":10646.312,"text":"所以依照何仁杰的案子如果他在2016年5月才進行過一次的查核他又到了外交部跟總統府所以這個有沒有違法的問題"},{"start":10648.575,"end":10672.026,"text":"我想這個涉及到依法行政的部分他是重返這個外交部不過我想您問我的話我認為是應該要查核依法應該要查核那麼請問一下外交部一等之一會涉及哪些的這些機密的任務或者是文件"},{"start":10675.32,"end":10696.434,"text":"因為他是機要任用,就是看他部長任用他賦予他什麼任務,我想一般都有相當的機敏性所以一等資義確實有機敏性,但他也要具體看每一個人的業務當你用一等資義去任用的時候,基本上他一定會碰到一些機敏性的資料跟業務才對"},{"start":10697.586,"end":10716.807,"text":"就看部長賦予他的業務範圍但是我是認為一等這個機要的這個資歷的任用他是涉及到機要那當然也可能會涉及到機民的業務所以以部長您來看就是這位涉及共諜案的何仁傑"},{"start":10717.788,"end":10745.569,"text":"在這個過程裡面是不是確實出現了一些問題就是說我們該查核的時候沒有依法去做查核而他涉入一些機敏的資料機敏的業務那麼他甚至應該辦理一些特殊的查核那我剛才講的是不管是出任在任調任這還是這是基本款這是基本款如果他有涉及國家安全重大利益的還要做特殊查核"},{"start":10746.289,"end":10752.413,"text":"所以也就是說今天會是會出現這樣的一個問題那是不是要在這過程裡面確實有過失及疏漏的地方有關於司法偵辦在進行中那那個部分我想檢調也會來查明但是就行政調查的部分我啟動正風調查就是希望釐清這個何源當時所負責的業務涉及的機密事項那些資料有給那個相關單位嗎"},{"start":10775.91,"end":10788.905,"text":"現在就是在整理中我們的政風處最近就是很密集的在會診而且在約尋相關的人了解他的業務所涉及的一些機敏性的範圍到哪裡"},{"start":10791.557,"end":10812.415,"text":"對我想應該要做全力的偵辦而且呢我剛才說這裡面顯然在我們有應該依法去做的沒有去依法做應該要做的沒有做好那因為時間關係我想請問一下部長在4月初緬甸發生大地震那當時呢外交部有特別提到因為我們關心台灣人在緬甸的狀況因為緬甸詐騙事實上詐騙台灣人的狀況"},{"start":10818.22,"end":10823.524,"text":"非常非常多而且有很多帶救援的這些人應該還帶救援因為我們現在海外詐騙事實上前陣子曾經稍微降下來一些我們可以看到2023的時候確實有降下來可是從去年開始到今年今年我們是統計到4月8號海外的詐騙又回升了而且如果我們看資料統計"},{"start":10846.382,"end":10865.067,"text":"以緬甸、遼國來說還有泰國我們成功救援的比例是偏低的泰國、緬甸、遼國我們的救援比例是偏低的所以我想請教一下我們外交部針對海外詐騙的回升還有針對要加強救援我們國人回台灣我們有什麼樣的精進防範的辦法"},{"start":10872.495,"end":10899.947,"text":"是首先自2022年期間當然我們也已經協助救援的人數也高達1500人但是因為這個數字實在是這個太多了多到就是說其實剛剛委員所提到的這個整個救援數的比例還是有限那首先因為這涉及到跨部會的業務所以我們也有行政院包括政務委員來協調因為除了我們外管我們外管是負責急難救助可是有一些警政"},{"start":10900.447,"end":10922.203,"text":"第二就是說涉及到的這一些跨境的犯罪那我們就必須請外管那過去是各自在進行我們就外管是一體的這一點在第一線來做救援工作是很重要那因為有一些國家涉及到像緬甸或是說您提到的寮國真的是一些國家的一個"},{"start":10924.545,"end":10943.598,"text":"制度比較不上軌道所以我們會透過間接的方式第三國或有熱心的人士或台商來協助那怎麼樣做到能夠確保救人優先但是又能夠符合我們的一些法律行政的規範不會讓公務員陷入險境或為難這個都是我們在不斷的檢討跟改進當中"},{"start":10945.619,"end":10956.368,"text":"這個部分我希望可以書面提供給本委員或者是我們那個外交委員會來做這個了解因為我要特別去提醒部長按照我們現在的數據顯示從去年開始其實國外詐騙它的"},{"start":10960.791,"end":10986.16,"text":"建樹又開始在升高我也知道外館要去營救是非常辛苦的那當然包含我們國內的宣傳國內的防度其實是非常重要但是這部分因為我們看到的數據讓我們有些擔心去年的數據又開始上升然後再加上我們當然也希望能夠提高我們的救援率這個部分就麻煩我們外交部提供書面的資料給我們 好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":10989.101,"end":11001.531,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員上台諮詢接下來有吳世瑤委員上台諮詢吳世瑤委員吳世瑤不在那接下來有張啟改委員上台諮詢"},{"start":11017.604,"end":11018.29,"text":"請林家榮林部長"},{"start":11027.51,"end":11051.515,"text":"保定喂好丁蓋你化解了民主基金會的人事僵局我是高度肯定的謝謝你提出來之後找到一個韓國瑜可以接受的人民進黨政府也可以接受的人那個是賴清德總統在最近上任快一年朝野和解跟朝野合作成功的一個案例我高度肯定我也期待這邊我們跟美國這次的談判不要搞到後來"},{"start":11057.605,"end":11076.135,"text":"投降各地賠款你落下一個各地賠款的外交部長好不好我們來想想有沒有什麼是美國願意給的而且是我們台灣需要的那我先問這個進展第一個你一直好像聽你講這個談判非常樂觀那我還在那邊問這個經濟部的處長江次長他從那次視訊完之後就停頓了連這個談判都沒開始啊"},{"start":11084.534,"end":11110.311,"text":"那現在是進度停擺了嗎?還是怎麼樣?都進行中,我們美處跟美方都有很頻繁的在溝通安排進一步的談判日本都談了第一階段結束了嘛現在南韓還要開始,我們差不多要再等多久?我們都有洽談了適當的時間跟這個出席的人員等來啦,我們來畫危機為轉機啦"},{"start":11113.909,"end":11142.906,"text":"談判一定是有拿的時候也要給嘛對不對我們有沒有想出來不是美國只有他喊牌說叫我們買這個金幣這個大概跑不掉啦對不對那個不算進去這個不算在這個逆差裡面這個也是很大的一個當然在省啊對他沒有算進去我們就要跟他講嘛對不對那除了這個之外要我們一直去投資台積電去還有我們的產業一直去投資之外有沒有是他們也要給我們我們也需要的"},{"start":11143.706,"end":11156.11,"text":"有沒有想過 例子能源呢我先開個頭 等一下看你有什麼好方法吧所以我們外交部有邀請金融美台商會阿拉斯加州長來參加所謂的忘年會就是美台的這個我知道 這個很好那我進一步來講 你講到天然氣我問了經濟部經濟部說我們目前所有天然氣的採購"},{"start":11171.235,"end":11198.752,"text":"美國佔我們的10%現在可能要增加兩到三倍那我提一個更具體的建議是你剛剛講阿拉斯加官方的天然氣來了我們跟他合資一起來賺錢這會不會更好如果這樣很好啊對不對進井路透社就有一個新聞他說有440億美金整條的他希望跟我們合作現在南韓也在爭取對不對包括要挖天然氣管道管線我們一起來投資一起來賺錢可以嗎"},{"start":11200.986,"end":11225.888,"text":"這會更好 比那個去買 買了很多天然氣又更好投資當然能夠建立的合作關係更緊密這是一個更好的路嘛第二個 而且以後如果這個除了這個商業的考量其實能源安全啊 跟韌性因為我想美國跟台灣如果說阿拉斯加的天然氣啊它不會比較受制於中國的影響對嘛 所以第一個我們有共識也是應該是個好的方法除了"},{"start":11227.129,"end":11249.125,"text":"擴大去買天然氣投資方面一起賺錢這應該是我們這次可以談的一個很大的突破第二個核能啊核能是一個好議題啊你有注意到AIT的處長古立言最近講了兩三次了對不對有他說對他說核能美國跟日本現在在重啟核能它穩定而且價格是低的我們電競就不用像現在一直在漲啊"},{"start":11250.455,"end":11269.983,"text":"美國商會一直在呼籲美國商會每一次跟我們談的第一件事情都說台灣現在他們來投資最大問題是什麼我們的能源可能不夠我們的電力可能不夠因為我們現在要推展半導體跟AI我們價格一直漲而且常常亂調三年調五次他說他們現在投資都碰到問題有一個穩定價格又低的就是核能"},{"start":11274.665,"end":11288.639,"text":"我跟委員講 核能部門來先救核廢料處理美國很有經驗跟技術 這個也是我們需要解決的問題他們的解決 這個也是一個合作的項目所以這個我們有共識 去突破 去跟美國要談包括核廢料他們幫我們處理"},{"start":11291.201,"end":11298.687,"text":"這個核能的設備包括Humble服務我們全部跟他買這個利差就降下來了喔而且是他要的嘛川普也在講川普的選舉就是能源的輸出果嘛所以他在天然氣轉啊轉啊轉啊天然氣就開始賣那我們說要不要合資第二個核能的部分我們跟你買買設備買技術那這個對我們的電力幫助很大啊我們發展AI半導體就有幫助了對不對第一個電價不只不用漲還降"},{"start":11320.945,"end":11344.143,"text":"因為我們現在一度電大概3.8塊核電大概只有1.3塊那你去買那個什麼再生能源5.8塊來回之間我們電價就可以降核能的發展有一些政策跟主管其實不是外教部但我想是核廢料的處理因為美方有很好的經驗跟這個設備還有相關的如果能夠協助台灣處理我想這個也對於縮短"},{"start":11345.064,"end":11348.731,"text":"所以我們是不是有共識把這個列為一個事實上經濟部也說這個可以列為討論我們去爭取看看如果包括你講的他可以幫我們處理核廢料美國處理得很好啊"},{"start":11355.805,"end":11375.993,"text":"現在的一方面法令上我們已經都提案了法令我們會趕快去處理然後最近這一兩年美國跟日本他們這個核能就40年過後日本已經延長到60年了美國有些地方都已經到80了我們現在的核二核三都是40年就要停了我們會爭取再20年這個沒有問題這技術上沒有問題還有包括核廢料美國都可以處理當然請他來幫我們處理這是一個美國要給我們而且對我們來講是需要這個才是有突破"},{"start":11384.676,"end":11402.148,"text":"這樣不只不讓變成什麼割地賠款 上前祖國期待喔 跟民主基金的人事案一樣我們再做一個突破好不好那最後我大概用一分鐘時間問一下那個吳釗燮他六年 八個邦交國因為那個共諜案嘛對不對你現在怎麼處理 你有前面去清查嗎不要又發生類似狀況"},{"start":11404.878,"end":11420.111,"text":"我有折騰政風處進行調查也就他接觸的業務跟人事等這個調查最近會完成我們來做損害控管"},{"start":11421.071,"end":11426.213,"text":"也能夠避免未來再發生調查完要對外要公開好不好不要再出現斷交的狀況所以有點時間我請教一下剛剛是我提的天然氣不是只有買還要投資一起賺錢第二個考慮核能重啟核能美國幫他們處理核污肥料你說你也有一些想法是不是有什麼突破的方法"},{"start":11443.049,"end":11458.797,"text":"沒有 有關於能源 台灣因為是個能源進口國那如果能夠從美國來進口包括天然氣或油或等其實這個也多一層能源安全的考量因為美國會用他的船來運送然後這個期間也會經過我們台灣附近的海域"},{"start":11464.499,"end":11473.283,"text":"這個是也是兼具有經濟跟安全上的考量啦這是一個那核廢料如果不解決其實談核能其實台灣社會就是沒有辦法進入到下一個階段去談核電的問題但是未來的技術我想有一些開放的就是大家都討論的空間但是核廢料的先來幫忙台灣如果能夠協助處理我想這個應該跨黨派啦大家會從這裡切入也只是一個比較好的路徑美國很有經驗有技術可以處理嘛"},{"start":11493.373,"end":11521.095,"text":"那核電除了核二 核二跟核三可以核二是可以重啟 核三可以研擬核四廠在那邊整個總體檢一下那甚至現在全世界都有小型的核電廠對不對這是民進黨比較不排斥的這個都可以好好去談好不好那我們共同努力希望繼這個民主基金會人事案之外這次的談判外交部可以辦理一個更積極的好不好 做一些突破我們化危機為轉機我們不只有去投降好不好 共同努力謝謝我們要來努力"},{"start":11523.377,"end":11526.359,"text":"謝謝張啟凱委員上台諮詢接下來李昆城委員上台諮詢謝謝主席我們請外交部林部長"},{"start":11541.633,"end":11565.466,"text":"主席好 委員好部長好 辛苦了這個我早上聽到很多委員在講說那為什麼我們行政院或是外交部預算不趕快解凍啊我在想說那為什麼當時候要去刪預算 要去凍結預算早知如此 何必當初啊我來看一下在總預算通過之後那您有寫到台灣在世界舞台已被消音"},{"start":11566.306,"end":11570.109,"text":"那其中關於業務費凍結了50% 37.64億然後媒體政策還有業務宣傳的經費全數刪除1.11億然後國外旅費刪減了15% 總計1.58億所以前陣子我有看到媒體有在寫"},{"start":11587.748,"end":11609.3,"text":"這個有關於外交部的這個業務費凍結50%要執行30%之後才能升級解凍而且呢解凍呢要經過立法院的院會同意才有辦法凍之那所以我剛剛聽到很多這個立委在講啦說趕快解凍啊現在不是已經快要三分之一了啦那為什麼當時候業務費要凍到50%那業務費凍到50%有什麼樣的影響部長能不能再做個說明"},{"start":11617.45,"end":11637.6,"text":"業務會凍結50%影響不是只有50%因為很多業務是要先期規劃去洽商才能夠未來同意之後來執行所以我想這一次的凍結數因為是一個統動所以它沒有去分項目所以有些項目你會發現說會影響我們政務的推動尤其是外管"},{"start":11638.42,"end":11666.326,"text":"因為很多的外交其實是交涉都要上都要一年以上的時間才能夠逐步的進行所以可能當時並沒有考慮到外交的一個特色所以我們這部分也是說有請求就是說如果以前是有委員會來解凍如果也許針對外交部分大院能夠能夠針對這個決議做一些新的通過的提案讓外交可以"},{"start":11669.107,"end":11687.603,"text":"我們可以不受這個洞穴這樣子影響因為現在影響已經產生了產生什麼樣的影響 有沒有一些比較具體的有一些我們在外館當然有些固定支出 除了這個水電房租就是有一些約用人員 其實我們高度的也是需要一些約"},{"start":11689.707,"end":11710.366,"text":"聘僱的人員那些在管務的經營上是很重要那尤其有一些領務或有一些行政協助的事項那雖然這些只是一個機關裡面的可能在最基層的執行人員可是因為我們要減少我們一些公務的負擔我們不可能都用公務員嘛這個部分的影響是相當大的在外觀"},{"start":11711.648,"end":11729.347,"text":"提到外管的事情我請教一下部長我們在國外有租用的117間的社管是不是有可能在7月就可能繳不出房租就算是我們有自由的住外管社會不會也因為到了7月繳不出水電費無法正常營運其實這個部分"},{"start":11732.833,"end":11760.347,"text":"因為公務員他都會很就是說依法行政所以如果說大院能夠有解釋這個部分可以除外或者是我們的這個主緝單位能夠有統一的解釋那我不是指的處長啦我指的是說整個行政院跟立法院之間能夠就因為這個事情真的是會傷害到我們外交嘛這個部分那當然"},{"start":11762.316,"end":11776.449,"text":"這些所謂固定的支出是不是就要算在這個所謂凍三的這個統凍的範圍這個也是另外一個可以大家來討論的方向但是它就是一起刪的嘛因為這是含在業務費裡面"},{"start":11777.09,"end":11797.026,"text":"三就三就沒辦法啦要去追加與否嘛但是我說動的部分其實動有時候比三影響的更大它的傷害因為它不確定性因為你會不會解凍因為我們必須尊重立法院職權也許最後動了之後最後沒有通過解凍啊有可能啊不能夠排除這種可能啊"},{"start":11797.966,"end":11811.696,"text":"會不會發生就是說 將來有一天或是最近我們的副院長曾立軍要到美國去做這個談判然後到了美國 連一個能夠開燈的辦公室都沒有會不會最快發生這種情況六月之前是 目前沒有動的這個部分因為他這個是要"},{"start":11821.352,"end":11835.037,"text":"就是一半嘛我們當然可以會移緩季節我們怎麼樣去針對因為這次規定齁其實這次也是麻煩欸不能留用很多項目不能留用所以就沒有辦法來這個"},{"start":11837.058,"end":11850.452,"text":"這個所謂的不管以緩計及或者是留用不過如果是上半年因為川普講這90天應該是在我們最近的就是會來執行我也不希望這個事情發生這個部分我們為了確保國家利益我是無論如何一定要讓我們團隊能夠順利出發如果到美國去的話"},{"start":11859.241,"end":11882.75,"text":"好 那最後一個問題 因為這個在4月16號發生要罷免我的領銜人在這個新北地檢應訊的時候這一個穿著這個納粹的背章然後拿著這個希特勒的我的奮鬥的書然後甚至還舉這個希特勒這個鏡手裡引起了這個外交事件這是國際醜聞這包含這個以色列駐台代表有個聲明他說這個呢"},{"start":11885.771,"end":11899.577,"text":"這個對於在台灣納稅標誌還有希特勒著作遭公開展示一事表達深切的關切與強烈的譴責然後呢德國在台協會呢也是他說呢這件事情呢是帶有政治目的是一個無恥的行為這兩個聲明呢"},{"start":11903.158,"end":11924.533,"text":"幾乎就是在國民黨的黨主席朱立倫他在第一時間沒有承認說這是一個錯誤的事情反而拿這件事情再來消費民進黨我就看到了不論是德國在台協會或是以色列駐台代表馬上發出了這兩個嚴重的聲明那我再請教一下部長我們台灣民主集結會預定在這個月的月底"},{"start":11925.054,"end":11952.936,"text":"是不是會跟這個德國在台協會還有以色列在台的這個辦事處會共同舉辦一個國際猶太大屠殺紀念日的活動對這個活動我們去年也都有舉辦那個今年也都有外交部也都會支持也有參與副執行長有在場能不能就這個活動再做個說明那尤其在4月16日發生這件事情之後對於我們辦這個活動有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":11954.317,"end":11975.326,"text":"報告委員,我想辦理這樣子一個活動,我們台灣民族基金會是抱持著一個我們緬懷過去,我們不能遺忘過去,同時更重要的是要能夠積極的提倡我們台灣內部,對於這樣子一個在人類歷史上發生過這樣的悲慘的悲劇,這樣子一段歷史要能夠記憶,同時我們也要避免未來悲劇會持續的發生。"},{"start":11977.048,"end":11996.066,"text":"接下來我們會跟以色列駐台北的辦事處還有德國在台協會我們一起來共構這樣子的一個活動屆時也會有國內非常多的先進然後包括我們的總統也都會依照往例都會出席今年也設計了相當多元的一些活動"},{"start":11996.787,"end":12009.632,"text":"那主要的目標還是要提醒我們的公眾在這樣子的一個議題上面基本上它是一個沒有模糊空間我們對於這個人道對於人類歷史我們是應該要能夠正視這個活動是幾號開始辦"},{"start":12012.586,"end":12032.669,"text":"以我這個目前知道是4月23號4月23號辦那這個也有邀請總統來參加就對了那我在想說這件事情發生之後因為以色列跟德國代表處他們都有發出聲明他們有沒有來跟外交部來講這件事情來 部長我們都有保持聯繫所以其實外交部"},{"start":12034.025,"end":12060.291,"text":"在第一時間我在群組裡面而且我對用字譴制我是很慎重就是說外交部對這種以極為不當的方式表達個人意見予以嚴正譴責就是說嚴正譴責這是我想在外交上面是很重的就是我們對這件事情非常的重視而且認為這個是破壞台灣整體的形象"},{"start":12061.031,"end":12085.977,"text":"而且傷害其他國家人民的感情我們不容許這個有模糊的空間這一點我們也希望這個是不幸的事情我說這個包括就是這位這位去用納粹符號跟旗幟去表態的這一位國人我們也希望能夠作為一個負面教材"},{"start":12086.937,"end":12115.331,"text":"一個機會教育一個負面的示範那避免未來再發生我們也必須要就是利用這個事件來告訴國人這件事情是一個歷史的悲劇是人類可以說一個大慘劇我們不能夠把它當作一般的事情好像這個只是在嘲諷或是想要用這個東西去表達抗議這是沒有能夠就是混淆或模糊的空間"},{"start":12115.871,"end":12134.382,"text":"那以色列或是德國代表處有來跟外交部特別提到這件事情嗎?我們亞非斯負責的業務都有跟他們很密切的聯繫尤其最近要舉辦這個所謂國際猶太大屠殺紀念日活動我們很密切的來聯繫我們也會支持跟參與"},{"start":12135.683,"end":12159.883,"text":"好 我就希望說這件事情在當天的這個活動裡面能夠再把它做個說明那我最後也希望說能夠國人跟政府一起攜手努力我們展現台灣是一個就是民主自由尊重人權的國家對世界上不同的文化宗教跟族群要有同理心來實現更美好 更有包容性的未來OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":12161.904,"end":12175.278,"text":"謝謝李坤臣委員上台諮詢接下來有鄭天才委員上台諮詢鄭天才委員上台諮詢鄭天才委員上台諮詢鄭天才委員不在以上"},{"start":12177.364,"end":12191.953,"text":"登記實質的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由林玉君委員提書面質詢請列入登記並刊登公報"},{"start":12192.953,"end":12210.331,"text":"委員書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位以書面與兩周內答覆為另約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"16604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16604","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eab8f3324780817fde1097cfa4245e4149bd9360bdedb085229d6e57bef30d523e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案。二、審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-21T08:30:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-21T11:25:00+08:00","duration":10483,"影片長度":"02:54:43","委員發言時間":"08:30:17 - 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請主任秘書報告出席人數我們現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1849.113,"end":1872.498,"text":"立法院第十一届第三会情念证委员会第十一次全体委员会议议事录时间114年4月17日星期四上午9时2分至11时56分地点红楼202会议室出席委员苏巧慧委员等13人练习委员洪孟凯委员等12人请假委员丁学忠委员1人练习官员海洋委员会主任委员管碧玲记相关人员主席张昭记委员洪录"},{"start":1873.178,"end":1889.47,"text":"報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請海洋委員會主任委員衰童所屬列席報告業務概況並備質詢海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲報告委員張志倫等19人質詢分別由海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲及相關人員答覆說明"},{"start":1890.17,"end":1914.091,"text":"決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員丁雪忠所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會宣讀完畢好謝謝請問各位委員上次會議意思錄有錯誤或遺留之處沒有好謝謝意思錄確定那我們現在繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1917.875,"end":1941.347,"text":"1審查委員劉許廷等17人擬拘行政區劃罰草案案2審查委員邱振軍等18人擬拘行政區劃罰草案案宣讀完畢好那本日議程所列討論事項我們就合併詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席的官員委員的部分首先是張志倫委員王美惠委員還有黃婕委員"},{"start":1947.659,"end":1960.173,"text":"官員部分 我們內政部 劉思芳部長人民委員會常務副主任委員 鍾欣華還有我們財政部國庫署 林秀燕副處長"},{"start":1964.397,"end":1980.046,"text":"好謝謝那提案說明的部分因為這個我們就不特別說明所以今天我們就不進行提案說明我們待會尋答的時候再一併處理現在請內政部劉思芳部長針對行政缺化法的部分進行報告"},{"start":1986.495,"end":2007.348,"text":"周委主席还有各位委员女士先生大家早首先对于各位委员就内政业务推动的关注跟指导表达由衷感谢那今天内政委员会审查由牛许婷委员等人所提报的这个行政区划法还有邱振军委员等所分别提的行政区划法的草案共计两案"},{"start":2008.228,"end":2033.673,"text":"那內政部應邀列席報告跟備詢深感榮幸那緊究行政區劃法相關規定跟本部的推動情形委員的提案說明請各位委員來參考按照憲法第108條第一項的規定行政區劃由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之現行法律有關行政區劃的規定目前在地方製度法"},{"start":2034.333,"end":2052.49,"text":"只有改制直轄市以及相關的配套而村裡邊阻調整則授權地方訂定自治法規具以辦理其餘涉及直轄市縣或者是括號市還有鄉還有鎮市區的新設廢址或調整等都需要另依法律規定"},{"start":2053.431,"end":2068.244,"text":"為了因應各界對於行政區劃法制度法制化的要求本部從81年開始推動行政區劃相關的立法工作有六度報到行政院含送大院來審議但是都沒有完成立法"},{"start":2068.524,"end":2082.589,"text":"那顯示就是還需要凝聚最大的共識所以內政部最近一次是在109年12月21日將行政區劃的程序法的草案函報行政院審查當中那內政部並且已經針對行政院所審查所提立法原則一議在111年辦理專家學者的諮詢會議以及112年辦理委託研究"},{"start":2093.312,"end":2116.505,"text":"並且在113年將內政部所嚴處的意見請行政院參酌繼續審議有關大院牛許廷委員等人的提案版本第12條以及邱振軍委員等人提案版本的第11條均有涉及將行政區劃程序納入公民投票的機制但是仍然有部分有待斟酌的地方說明如此"},{"start":2117.225,"end":2134.003,"text":"首先現行公民投票法是為禁止行政區劃相關事項作為公民投票的提案但究竟適用全國性或地方性的公民投票如何界定各種行政區劃類型公民投票之提案人連署人以及投票權人的範圍等並會"},{"start":2136.485,"end":2154.96,"text":"是不是會產生相關區域的人數多寡衍生投票公平性的問題都值得進一步的探討以凝聚共識其次內政部在112年辦理的委託研究當中其中關於行政區化與公民投票關聯議題的研究結果主要認為以"},{"start":2156.101,"end":2176.68,"text":"各國所推動的行政區劃經驗來講公民投票並非必然的程序如果為了強化公民參與的機制公民投票也不是唯一的方法另外行政區劃程序當中所採取的公民投票方式將面臨如何決定辦理公民投票的主管機關經費以及如何決定通過額度的問題"},{"start":2178.041,"end":2189.307,"text":"一併提供給委員了解跟參考最後內政部已經就現行行政區劃的相關規定行政區劃所涉及公民投票部分在書面報告當中有較詳細的說明也請各委員參考指教謝謝"},{"start":2194.929,"end":2223.964,"text":"好 謝謝劉思芳部長的說明其他單位的報告我們就請委員自行參閱我們會刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前遠離座以下幾點宣告第一 本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時得延長一分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記第二 因為今天法案處理我們本次會議不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見沒有好 謝謝那現在進行詢答我們先請登記第一位的張志倫委員發言"},{"start":2234.056,"end":2238.249,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":2247.234,"end":2272.44,"text":"張委員早部長早今天非常感謝我們召委主席今天排這個有關於行政區劃法草案的審查會首先要跟我們部長報告一下因為本席是來自於新北市中和區也是過去台北縣升格為新北市的範圍內中和區跟部長報告中和區以前叫中和鄉"},{"start":2277.101,"end":2298.422,"text":"中和軍後來升格就是因為有帝制法的關係升格以後變成中和式跟永和式然後升格完了以後其實大家一開始是蠻開心的那台北縣也升為新北市那升格完了以後過去還沒升格前我們可以用帝制法來處理那剛剛其實部長有特別報告說升格為新北市了以後那我們是希望說"},{"start":2299.543,"end":2318.39,"text":"升格為新北市以後比如說台北縣改為新北市成為直轄市了以後是本來的目的是想要平衡城鄉跟行政區的一些差異那可是因為升格了以後其實我們過去的台北縣也是29個鄉鎮市區那升格了以後變成新北市還是29個這個鄉鎮市區就變成說升格了以後"},{"start":2321.471,"end":2341.448,"text":"因為現在沒有行政區劃法的一個可以讓我們調整比如說中和區、永和區、板橋區等等這些的原因了以後導致變成行政區的範圍一致那人口面積不變導致說我們現在比較擔心的是在我們現在沒有相關的行政區劃法的"},{"start":2342.168,"end":2366.79,"text":"的這些法令下我們的行政區沒辦法調整反而導致我們現在當時的利益良善可是變成現在有些區的自治表現跟自理能力上呈現衰退就是有些區可能因為以新北市的角度來講他要照顧每一個區可是有些區的有一些的比如說人口數等等的一些差異導致原本的利益良善的部分導致現在會有一些發展"},{"start":2368.615,"end":2390.275,"text":"的一些平衡的一些問題所以我們認為說修整這些行政區劃法有它的必要性所以本席在這邊也跟部長報告我們提供的數字給您像我們以我現在在的一個地方我們在的是中和區中和區有40多萬人那可是我們以區公所的緣額才151個人"},{"start":2392.637,"end":2414.347,"text":"所以顧名思有一個區公所的人要平均服務的是大概兩千多名的我們的里民那以比如說比較我們新北市比較偏向的一些區我們不要講特定的區好了可是以這個人口數的比例算起來的話大概一個區公所的人員平均服務大概兩到三百個我們的這個鄉親跟里民"},{"start":2414.867,"end":2438.257,"text":"所以可以看到將近有10倍的一個差距所以變成說新北市他要平均服務每一個區域的時候可是會造成我們會擔心有些行政資源上的一些的沒辦法去普及我們所有的這個鄉親所以我認為這也是這個主席我們招委今天提這個草案修法的一個過程所以是不是先請教部長針對現在的行政區劃"},{"start":2439.83,"end":2467.278,"text":"可能會影響到行政治理造成資源分配不公比如說像我也跟這個部長報告像過去這個COVID-19的時間我們比如說區公所的人也非常辛苦我們衛生局的人也非常辛苦就是因為這些行政區分法造成的一些問題大家有時候會比較苦不堪言或者甚至有些公共建設的重複投資而且我們現在跨區比如說每個區要跨區其實串聯上也相對的困難"},{"start":2468.118,"end":2486.824,"text":"內政部剛剛有提說從81年修法到109年到111年到113年你們有沒有辦法針對現在的現象提出具體的檢討以及你們現在有沒有修法現在已經提到行政院的部分有沒有一個具體的時效來幫助現在沒有行政區劃法所產生的一些問題請部長回答"},{"start":2489.792,"end":2507.387,"text":"謝謝張委員對於行政區劃法的重視張委員所提到的部分大概所涉及的不會只有行政區劃法包括地方制度法您剛有提到中和鄉升格成中和市後來中和市不管怎麼樣台北縣又升格成新北市這裡面又牽涉到財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2510.69,"end":2515.755,"text":"所以事實上可以看得出來就是要解決委員所在綜合的地方所產生的問題的話行政區劃法、地方制度法跟財政收支劃分法這是三個基本的方向如果現在再加上牛委員跟邱委員所提到的是公民投票的話這再加上四個"},{"start":2528.886,"end":2535.176,"text":"四個法律那既然有這個四個法律案的時候其實在最早前我們在109年的時候有報到行政院去在討論到這些問題的時候大概要從公平性還有它的生態圈的發展"},{"start":2544.389,"end":2560.359,"text":"還有是否呢居民是否這個會同意這樣的方向三個來研議但是呢確實複雜因為每個地區的缺點或是優點呢大家都各不相同要你依據共識寫成條文呢確實有困擾那但是呢如果剛剛委員所提到的就是說你認為行政區劃法要如何的更改會更能夠切應委員所關心的這個綜合的這個問題的話呢我們願意聽聽委員的高見"},{"start":2570.586,"end":2590.7,"text":"是 我認為這個部分是不是跟部長報告一下就是說月前81年已經透過相關的這個修法已經開始啟動了那您剛剛有報告從111年113年其實現在的其實內政部你們是有你們的版本現在送給行政院那不知道說行政院剛剛也可能是考量部長的一些想法"},{"start":2591.44,"end":2613.102,"text":"然後現在還是在做整個的審查當中可是我要跟部長報告就是依照地方制度法七支三條其實裡面就已經有規定說就是要依照這個地方制度法的部分就是做相關的執法所以也拜託部長這邊看是說看是說是不是大家可以來討論看看辦一些公聽會還是說怎麼樣的一些方式可以讓大家"},{"start":2613.502,"end":2634.318,"text":"越來越聚焦然後讓這個整個行政區劃法可以有一個這個進展我相信因為我也剛剛跟部長報告過了比如說里長像我們新北市的里長其實一個里幹事他要服務好幾個里長那我就比如說像我剛剛也跟跟部長特別說明的比如說疫情期間各區造成很多的"},{"start":2635.298,"end":2659.356,"text":"辛苦的一個部分所以還是要拜託部長這邊可以來幫忙一下好那今天我還是在最後實際的關係來做一個結論就是說行政區劃法對於這些有升格的直轄縣市我認為是一個在他整個整個治理的一個重構的一個關鍵所以我還是要拜託部長是不是可以加速請行政院來做一個"},{"start":2660.917,"end":2677.521,"text":"這個進度或者是開一些公聽會不能讓這個行政區劃法只是變成一個走現在走程序我們應該大家一起來努力讓整個我們所有深隔的直轄市的各區可以未來的發展可以一個更好的一個方向以上謝謝好謝謝張志倫委員下一位我們請張宏祿召委"},{"start":2694.178,"end":2720.195,"text":"好來我請部長跟這個地政司司長劉市長地政司司長有請那民政司司長也留著我兩個都跟著民政司司長我兩個都兩個都叫好那就張檢仁視察跟蘇檢仁視察請一起跟鄭市長不好意思民政跟地政"},{"start":2723.26,"end":2742.094,"text":"好,我先請問一下啦,這個如果地方的這個區域重劃或什麼的啊除了民政的之外啊,我要請問一下,那個其他的地政資料啊或什麼資料是不是也要重新來?"},{"start":2746.99,"end":2761.715,"text":"結論上事務所的服務的部分其實有些是跨轄區的部分不是啦我是說比如說我本來是在這一個裡換去別的裡我們這樣簡單一點你們的地震資料要不要也要趕"},{"start":2762.598,"end":2778.201,"text":"有可能因為行政區域調整之後他的事務所服務的區域會變動那所以可能地址資料部分可能要重新調整也要嘛好謝謝那你可以先回去我為什麼要請第一任司長先講"},{"start":2780.051,"end":2802.932,"text":"行政區劃法我個人認為重新劃分尤其是行政區劃法我認為是有討論的必要然後台灣這麼小其實現在維持市級政府其實我也覺得沒有什麼特別的必要要維持這樣所以行政區劃法我認為是可以討論但它的牽涉就又更廣了如果你有任何的改變"},{"start":2804.11,"end":2826.35,"text":"每個人民從他的身份證 從他的很多的資料是不是全部都要改啊 我請問一下部長是 當然都要改當然都要改嘛 改應該要花不少錢吧對嘛 部長這個錢應該非常的多啦真的是非常多所以行政區的話 我認為是要討論 但"},{"start":2828.649,"end":2844.31,"text":"可能他牽扯到的法令還有財政收支劃分法還有地方制度法等等很多都要一併連動都要一併連動所以其實就我所知啦在行政院齁"},{"start":2845.391,"end":2869.874,"text":"他之前也有提過一個草案但後來因為大家的意見非常的多然後反映出來也是必須應該去檢討解決的事情所以在那次提出之後我們行政院內政部是不是也繼續廣徵各方的意見這個事情現在還在做是不是啊"},{"start":2870.395,"end":2878.049,"text":"對 我們在112年的時候有委託研究那現在把研究的結果在9月多的時候有送到行政院來參考"},{"start":2880.379,"end":2905.739,"text":"那裡面涉及到的部分就是說他的疑義啦就是說地方製度法跟行政區劃法如何做借階還有這個鄉鎮市區的行政區是否授權由地方政府來決定那這個地方製度法還有行政區劃的審議跟核定還有是否適合作為公民投票這幾項到目前為止這個學者專家或者是地方上的一些這個地方"},{"start":2908.181,"end":2924.9,"text":"政府都有不同的看法因為他們自己本身所碰到的問題都不相同對啦因為該檢討的事情我們應該要去檢討去面對但這是一個知識體大我個人一直認為說要來討論這個問題但必須要討論的完整因為呢"},{"start":2929.909,"end":2953.449,"text":"如果一個地區它的行政區域的重劃我們不可能兩三年重劃一次吧可能這個一次啊就用了50年100年了所以這個必須要好好的去思考啦那個我請教師長一下這個可能你比較清楚師長日本平成大合併這件事你知道嗎"},{"start":2956.788,"end":2984.543,"text":"你知道啦那結果他後來造成了什麼的影響成鄉差距是有影響我直接跟市長你講好了啦日本的平成大合併他也是遇到跟我們現在討論的問題是一模一樣的日本也是面對這個問題但平成大合併之後"},{"start":2985.714,"end":3013.056,"text":"他們並沒有解決所有的問題他們就是像我剛剛說的只有從行政區化的調整然後他們日本有一些很小的鄉鎮把小鄉鎮兩個變成一個但後來也沒有解決問題反而窮的還是越來越窮沒有錢的還是沒有錢所以平成大合併它就是跟我們現在討論的一樣"},{"start":3014.807,"end":3041.223,"text":"他就是要解決這些問題結果問題沒有解決那我們要藉經日本的經驗我們今天要討論這個行政區域法法討論是應該的但剛剛我所講的相關的法令的配套也要一併討論才能徹底的解決啦是不是啊市長是的所以市長我跟你講我建議你可以把平成大合併這些拿出來再給大家看一下"},{"start":3041.656,"end":3068.649,"text":"日本犯的錯我們不要再同樣犯錯日本的平成大合併可能大家都沒有去關注我那時候我就覺得哇有破例我就一直看他的資料結果咧有破例是一件事情沒有解決問題是一件更嚴重的事情你看日本現在很多鄉下連房子都沒有人要住啊但那當然不是一個行政區的話單一的問題所以我在這邊部長我覺得啦"},{"start":3072.281,"end":3086.529,"text":"應該來討論這一個行政區劃法但我們這幾年繼續研究繼續去處理的問題其實也應該給內政委員會一些資料大家用這些資料再來討論再來詳細的討論來處理這個問題我覺得這個問題我們要解決但我覺得應該要花點時間來解決不然"},{"start":3096.855,"end":3106.582,"text":"我們所有的立法委員也會變成罪人為什麼變成罪人我再說一次拒舉平成大合併大家來看就知道了這個"},{"start":3108.735,"end":3137.547,"text":"造成日本現在很多問題待解決所以部長可不可以說你把這些資料給大家然後大家好好來討論然後甚至把你們這些要研究的你們之前的草案有哪些要修改我覺得都可以給大家來參考一下是 我們會遵照委員的指示來辦理把日本平成合併的部分還有目前我們在行政區劃的推動上面碰到什麼困擾因為原先會覺得說地方制度的就是"},{"start":3138.067,"end":3155.138,"text":"希望能夠這個尊重這個地方制度然後用行政區劃的程序法但是目前看起來很多委員所問的就是行政區劃的實質的部分是指什麼那牽涉到了就很多所以剛剛有委員也提到說是不是可以開公聽會的方式我們也會樂觀其成我覺得部長"},{"start":3159.46,"end":3180.189,"text":"這個真的可能有需要因為你剛講的程序法跟作用法跟實質法其實我覺得是完全不一樣的概念那概念完全不一樣你要實行下去我跟你講也是完全不一樣我們要很審慎可能要讓所有的委員知道程序法作用法還有實質法這些的不同點在哪裡我們去立法才不會有差錯好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":3186.496,"end":3190.958,"text":"好感謝張宏祿召委感謝劉思峰部長下一位我們有請劉許廷召委好謝謝主席劉思峰部長有請"},{"start":3205.68,"end":3233.253,"text":"好 謝謝這根據我們憲法108條一項二款規定行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之然而現行行政區域的新設廢址或調整除村里林的邊阻跟調整或者是縣市合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定之外其他的各種行政區劃的調整基本上是沒有法源依據的那麼歷經時代更迭社會變遷人口流動產業結構"},{"start":3235.935,"end":3259.194,"text":"轉變、區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多在台灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實急待調整去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢去提升地方治理的品質跟效能所以我想推動行政區劃法它是有迫切的需求而且必須要依法治化希望在接下來的討論之中可以有更多委員來繼續支持行政區劃法的討論這個是我就要問一下部長"},{"start":3264.778,"end":3270.292,"text":"這剛剛委員這個張宏祿召委講的很多都是很合理的就希望他有審慎的討論但這個劉部長你知不知道這個行政區他的討論從什麼時候就開始了"},{"start":3275.934,"end":3301.852,"text":"從民國八十一年到現在三十幾年啦有改變過但是改變的不多啦改變的不多嘛對不對碰到的困擾還不少碰到的困擾不少嘛對不對所以歷經了李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統等等好幾任分別都有不同的版本但每一次到了最後都基本上就是不是卡在行政院沒有共識就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了"},{"start":3302.572,"end":3310.863,"text":"我們有六次的部分有六次的部分我想部長也很清楚那我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區的例據提出來的而是"},{"start":3314.295,"end":3332.238,"text":"而是我們現在總統當初的台南市長賴清德的心聲當初他在做台南市長的時候當然就談過財化法的問題他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候他有講這個財政收支劃分法地方制度法行政區劃法是均衡台灣發展重要的三法"},{"start":3332.95,"end":3357.584,"text":"要來做處理嘛所以也是在我們賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法的草案嘛那時候叫行政區劃程序法嘛那有這樣的一個草案也進到了這個內政委員會的一讀會但是後來就沒有然後了嘛那當然就因為隨著行政院長的換人隨著屆期的不連續然後這個案子又再次的胎死腹中這本席是覺得非常非常可惜啦"},{"start":3358.024,"end":3370.694,"text":"那我想行政區號就如同我剛剛講的就現在啊你除了縣市合併而且不只是合併喔你還能夠升格你可以利用地方制度法之外其他有很多的調整它其實是沒有辦法來做處理的下一張再下一張這看過了"},{"start":3374.5,"end":3398.769,"text":"我就舉我自己選區的例子啊這我龜山的這個回籠地區啊這當初本席那時候在賴清德總統提出院辦草案的時候本席在競選這個第一次競選桃園市議員啊我在我回籠地區我就講這地方很有趣啊它轄區是我桃園的龜山但是跟新北新莊跟我們新北樹林交界我們回籠地區啊這個電化區嘛我們桃園是03開頭但回籠是02啊然後他們繳電費要到新莊繳水費要到樹林啊"},{"start":3403.613,"end":3407.433,"text":"這就是這邊的生活 基本上他的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的"},{"start":3408.297,"end":3437.456,"text":"所以也因為這樣他常常被桃園 自然而然他就是邊界的治理嘛他可能就變成末梢的地方那麼相對來講他得到的重視跟資源不管是藍綠執政都一樣他常常就是那個被遺忘的山不管地帶所以那時候我看到了中央當初有提行政區劃法的草案我覺得非常的高興啊所以我就在我們回鴻地區跟我們鄉親來講現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題我們應該做好準備大家未來這個你可以把你的心聲大聲的講出來"},{"start":3438.557,"end":3453.749,"text":"後來回籠鄉親也很期待啊也因為這樣給了我很多的支持可是很遺憾的是我當選的議員之後後來發現這個法案並沒有通過那這個鄉親的溯源他一直想要把心情講出來這樣子的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難啊這就是行政區沒有辦法有效的遊戲規則來做討論的一個問題啊"},{"start":3457.532,"end":3470.526,"text":"部長 像這樣子的問題你以你們現在行政院的統計你們過去其實也寫過草案像這樣子邊界三不管地帶然後可能有必要要透過行政區畫調整的方式全台灣一共有幾處 你們有沒有做過統計可以 沒問題"},{"start":3475.985,"end":3496.574,"text":"事實上這個有關區界的一個劃分的部分如果有一些不明的現行大概就可以這個來做處理那是那個只是間界的問題土地間界一樣不一樣我想是生活圈的調整歷來有關行政催化法的討論大概沒有通過原因就是"},{"start":3498.072,"end":3519.928,"text":"各界對於行政規劃大概都有各種不同的一個想像事實上這個各種的討論實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理可能就很難來做執行所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政規劃程序法就提供一個行政規劃的遊戲規則"},{"start":3523.874,"end":3544.699,"text":"我要跟部長再補充啊 其實也不只是跨縣市的這樣子的一個區域的一個重整我桃園市裡面啊 兩個區之間 有那種地界很奇怪的 一樣生活圈不一樣的我哪怕是我桃園市裡面 區跟區之間 里跟里之間的調整他也都沒有辦法去處理 這個就是現在的問題 原因是什麼 我沒有法源依據嘛"},{"start":3545.399,"end":3559.742,"text":"譬如說我龜山的山德里其實有一塊它其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的但是一個畫區的時候畫畫在山德里面變得跟飛地一樣然後我曾經有跟桃園市議會質詢結果桃園市長說因為我們沒有一套"},{"start":3560.643,"end":3579.297,"text":"即便是我桃園市內部各區之間要做行政區的調整也沒有法源依據所以我講這些東西也許從全國宏觀的角度來看它可能只是一個很小的事情可是這對於在地的居民來講它是一件大事情所以我覺得剛剛我們市長有回答現在不管是成立院版的行政區劃法的行政區劃程序法"},{"start":3581.539,"end":3605.852,"text":"或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃吧它其實概念是一樣的也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則我很同意剛剛張宏祿召委講的你在做行政區劃的時候它會造成城鄉發展不均的問題啊它會造成地方的一些衝突所以每一個案子它都要經過充分討論這一點本席百分之百贊同但現在的問題不是沒有討論啊現在問題是連開始都不能開始因為你沒有任何的法源依據我現在請問部長"},{"start":3607.433,"end":3623.73,"text":"這個我看了你們的那個書面報告你們有寫113年啊這個最新你們委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院那以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後請問你們現在院版因為之前部長有講過嘛行政區法一定會有院版嘛對不對還是說現在不會有院版了"},{"start":3625.933,"end":3652.327,"text":"部長未來要有院版的話我們希望會有一個公聽的程序啦就是剛剛我有回答委員的問題啦第一個就是說我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法還是行政區劃的程序法那這兩個是完全不同的概念行政區劃的程序法的話就是我們就是像委員所說的很簡單的一句話就是我們把遊戲規則弄出來讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循那但是呢這個部分呢就是要公聽以後"},{"start":3653.027,"end":3679.646,"text":"包括縣市政府願意同意這樣的方式我們才推出來所以推出來這個部分呢本來就是我們必須要處理的上個會期跟上上個會期其實本期都有在不管是夜報或者是專報的時候都有去提到這個概念那當初大家的回答都一樣就是一定會有願版但是你們要有點時間去整理我說OK你有時間去研究然後讓它推出來完整我是OK的但我想知道你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後送進來的東西跟你當初啊"},{"start":3680.106,"end":3707.861,"text":"賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候當初推出來的草案版本現在會不會有差別基本上行政院針對跟地方制度法的借鞋的問題還有公投然後它是不是屬於行政處分它這個有關決定機關決定之後的效果等等大概法律上的這些問題還必須做深入的一個討論"},{"start":3709.073,"end":3722.619,"text":"還要討論那你們到底還要討論多久我今天就會幫我這些因為行政區化沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊那你們到底要討論多久內政部已經把相關的意見在去年送到行政院那這個部分行政院應該會去審來做處理"},{"start":3724.66,"end":3747.83,"text":"去程 我要問時間啊部長有沒有時間表你們要不要稍微加大一下力度說這是很多委員關心的事情目前還沒有那我要講的部分就是說可能要請委員把它區分開來如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題譬如說生活圈或者是居民的方便性那再來再次牽涉到說是屬於比較僵硬的制度就是說新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間"},{"start":3748.73,"end":3775.997,"text":"那是實際溝通的問題嘛就是程序上所以我們希望把程序定出來以後呢朝這方面但是呢我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候似乎有一些不管是委員也好還有學者專家覺得說這樣不行我們要把這個實質的部分要放進去所以就有人提到說那財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來那這樣子就越複雜所以到目前為止呢行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的包括桃園的龜山我現在講我現在剛剛跟你講你說"},{"start":3777.998,"end":3800.877,"text":"我們其實要的只是一個遊戲規則因為你每一個個案到最後的深水區一定是地方的討論嘛對不對 你一定是地方討論包括縣市政府的討論公民的差異等等因為中央也有這種這個稅賦上面的部分要處理啊沒錯 但你要有遊戲規則嘛就是地方稅你要納到什麼地方啊然後切割出去以後這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起我們現在 我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異其實概念上也是遊戲規則"},{"start":3801.758,"end":3827.059,"text":"我建議是有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好你實際上遇到狀況討論的時候因為到了最後決定的一定是地方地方政府的討論結果嘛跟中央的專家決定我理解我理解但是所以因為這樣子所以你打算遊戲規則都不做嗎我跟委員報告一下譬如說在那個委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們說我們可不可以北北激逃變成是一個大的城市那請問這個是中央的議題還是地方的議題"},{"start":3829.841,"end":3852.038,"text":"或者是說矽脂要不要跟基隆合併之類的那這些議題呢我們就造成很多照顧管制帶因為你連討論的平台跟遊戲規則跟法源依據都沒有嘛所以都變成空談嘛我們現在至少要有一個法源依據它有機會可以執行你才能去思考說我到底要不要做這件事情對不對但是你不能因為說因為這個很複雜所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有"},{"start":3852.538,"end":3854.701,"text":"我剛剛有回答過委員的問題就是說我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這相關的議題把它釐清清楚並不是表示說很複雜就不解決很複雜還是需要解決那這裡面所牽涉到的部分就是我剛剛所說的"},{"start":3868.642,"end":3887.348,"text":"我們本來在那個109之後呢想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法讓它簡單一點我只提遊戲規則那當然委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票那另外一回事但是這個行政區劃的程序法在內部包括有一些這個學者跟專家他們就不同意他說你這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題所以我們變得又比較審慎要來重新評估也就是我們所說的在我們共識"},{"start":3893.47,"end":3908.377,"text":"共識不是法條共識都還沒有形成之前啊單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法不夠完全好譬如說我們如果把這個行政區劃法送出去以後我看財政部一定馬上問說那請問一下這個地方稅怎麼樣做區分那其他的縣市議會有些議會覺得說我這邊割一塊出去了我的議員的這個名額又不見了"},{"start":3918.041,"end":3941.171,"text":"所以又跟地方制度有關我本來是希望說如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下盡量去因為我們現在是台灣是一個民意非常發達的部分盡量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主但是呢這個又牽涉到說我不要減少我的利益我希望增加我的部分最後的結論一定是最後只有遊戲規則比較容易走啦"},{"start":3945.353,"end":3967.478,"text":"就是回到當初的曾經提出過的願板但是我們希望有共識才來推啦因為時間不夠了所以你現在打算要多少時間之內你可以把剛剛張宏祿趙薇講的很好你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境你把資料提供給委員參考嘛這第一個第二個你們自己內政部會不會召開各縣市的這個協調會議啊或者是一個公聽會包含學者專家來你們會主動來辦嗎"},{"start":3970.52,"end":3996.406,"text":"我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過已經辦過了嘛可是我們希望說如果在立法院裡面有這樣的公聽程序的話可以再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會可以來表達他們的意見這樣子我們再收攏這些意見的話可能會更好所以你們112年已經做過座談嘛對不對113年研究案的資料已經回來那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考這是OK的吧"},{"start":3997.598,"end":4013.152,"text":"這個沒有問題對不對我們的委託研究嘛對 委託研究嘛 跟你一些困境你內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK你補充一些資料我們來安排公聽會 我認為都很好好 大家縣市政府再次來討論但是希望啊這是賴清德總統當做行政院長很重要的政見"},{"start":4014.113,"end":4035.311,"text":"不要這種跟民生生活有關的法案這種東西又被耽誤掉這本席是不接受的好不好我可以再等你一段時間等你的願板我都覺得是OK的但不能一等再等等到最後又變成屆期不連續那這樣對我的鄉親來講那就是很大的一個衝擊啊所以部長一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料我們來做後續的討論包含公聽會等等然後願板的時間表我們把它研擬出來這樣可以嗎"},{"start":4040.097,"end":4055.374,"text":"提供我們現在的資訊給委會各委員參考可以嗎我們看資料之後開公聽會到時候要請部長要配合應該沒有問題吧你們一定會配合嘛對不對也要跟縣市政府先講可能會有這樣一個事情可以嗎"},{"start":4056.752,"end":4082.488,"text":"那開完之後會不會院版會不會比較快一點公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話是由委員會發函我們可以排啊我在這邊公開的承諾你我可以排啊我們可以用這個這個委員會的時間我們來安排就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣這當然可以開好不好但我們希望開了之前大家的資料要充分對不對而且開要有意義啊你不能開完之後然後又不了了之了嘛對不對我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦"},{"start":4083.708,"end":4111.531,"text":"報告委員其實不是說開完之後不了了而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟反雜然後沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決我一直在提醒的是這一點所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候就因為是這樣所以就不了了之了嗎借其不蓄審也是一個原因啦到底是借其不蓄審還是當初沒有公示啊因為他好像是第...對不起不知道哪一年都提出來的對啊107年提出來嘛"},{"start":4112.593,"end":4117.426,"text":"然後1109年之後就藉其不續省那到底是藉其不續省還是還是做不到"},{"start":4118.851,"end":4142.92,"text":"你就把話講清楚吧我無法回答你無法回答我現在沒這個資格那你覺得現在他當總統他還會不會想做這個事嗎我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區畫跟所有的生活圈的實質的部分呢充分配合然後讓所有的居民了解一下說行政區畫是在幫助他們做更好的生活的部分的建設尤其是公共建設的話大家都會樂觀其成啦對嘛你這個態度比較好報告委員"},{"start":4144.821,"end":4170.341,"text":"但是沒有共識齁倉促推出反而會是副作用很大我完全了解啊我們在這個地方質詢其實聽了就是個真相到底是不是沒有共識還是因為藉其不去去審因為沒有共識是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了就把他公開清楚講明白我覺得這樣子也沒有關係但是看起來我們需要多一點討論好那我們就趕快收集資料我們趕快來辦公廳會但我希望回到這法案的初衷可以解決人民生活的問題可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":4173.37,"end":4177.032,"text":"好 謝謝劉許晴 趙偉 謝謝劉部長我們下一位有請王美惠委員這是我們這裡的部長劉部長 部長在這裡喔在上面擺在上面擺"},{"start":4200.546,"end":4206.754,"text":"我們知道非常多人去一個不應該自治的地方因為有地方受到影響但是我覺得補償做得很好"},{"start":4216.667,"end":4224.529,"text":"你剛才說全部都要寒鬆的,不然在那裡用武力,在那裡玩多久我覺得對你會越大,跟黑白說的越來越多因為我覺得一個地方,你要集會遊行或要做什麼,應該都要去申請"},{"start":4240.556,"end":4252.464,"text":"國家有國家的法規啦 我覺得最近這半天來 我覺得大家想不想去看就不去看像地檢署看了一遍 還說來 哪怕你們大小所以普天 我覺得你的做法 我覺得非常好 能夠給你"},{"start":4265.553,"end":4269.517,"text":"會更加多,所以在中禮拜拜時的時候,你的做法,我認為是利用全部寒鬆的,但是我的感覺是,你對中禮拜時這樣做,但是在這半年來,也有這樣的綜合,你是怎樣?"},{"start":4286.252,"end":4291.197,"text":"沒有看出這個全部來寒鬆來 補充妳的回答謝謝委員的指導我相信站在內政部的立場就是支持我們的經濟事務他們針對這個一規有限法裡面會相關規定來辦理所以我今天也有針對這個部分就是說我們的經濟事務的經濟動力尤其在處理這種聚眾"},{"start":4311.235,"end":4311.696,"text":"因為我站在一個這個就是"},{"start":4330.035,"end":4335.802,"text":"督導那個警政的立場上面的我就不針對個案來繼續發言因為他現在已經進入偵查的程序所以我覺得這樣子會比較好那過去好幾年當中呢我們在有關集會遊行的部分都有特別討論到禁制區"},{"start":4346.092,"end":4366.625,"text":"這個禁制區除了說譬如說是我們的這個中央政府所在地的要塞之外那還有軍事要塞那同時呢我們希望增加的像包括像這個法院或者是這個醫院因為醫院有很多這種聚眾滋擾的事件我們認為不適合因為醫院是一個看病的地方不是來吵架的地方"},{"start":4367.385,"end":4396.344,"text":"那希望在禁制區裡面大家都能夠遵守那這個有遵守的話大家有這個遵守的規範的話呢那警方是站在雙方能夠平和來處理有關任何的爭議事件呢這是我們的初衷而不是為了要傳喚某人或是為了要做這個政治性上面的一個宣示我想這個都不是集會遊行法希望大家能夠本於原來的初衷把自己要表達的立場講得非常清楚之後但是就是要遵守集會遊行的規則"},{"start":4397.365,"end":4399.927,"text":"因為保證,在這裏我覺得很好笑啦,一個收到沒去收這個款,又揮揮三尺,沒這樣,給北省看出他的做法,我覺得他的年紀實在是很差勁的"},{"start":4419.167,"end":4423.351,"text":"所以在國家有國家的法律所以一定要有法律的人要讓他知道有法律的問題所以在這個規定當中我也覺得補充這個處理方法我認為可以更多"},{"start":4438.342,"end":4443.807,"text":"會比較好 不會對你說話會越來越嚴重 我覺得一個社會一直對你如果不講道理 互不分 互不分的時候這個國家會害來 普通 剛才你說到我們的行政化分化 你們一定"},{"start":4459.721,"end":4463.364,"text":"立法會的經驗又恢復以來有八十一年到現在尤其我們的大中共也希望可以有這個做法但是裡面的做法有人提案"},{"start":4475.532,"end":4479.416,"text":"裡面有稍微不講 稍微不講的時候 也要問補充 以我自己來講我自己 我也願望 我的資源那些 我的零銷售那些我的生活圈來自己去那些 若是說 只有一塊而已"},{"start":4496.803,"end":4499.925,"text":"追尋是不是可以未來加二次民用是不是可以未來加二次我也愿意這樣因為加二次在幾十年前加新疆買賣新機要不然我們中央的政府跟我們說你新機要不然在這裡你看不是加花輪功新機就好了"},{"start":4523.459,"end":4525.46,"text":"是長久以來 要怎麼阻止他 你看他年紀和身體又有差喔再來這個過程中 你的行政會看文化 也會牽涉到"},{"start":4544.161,"end":4551.283,"text":"財政手法,這是都一樣在這裡的做法本席是要跟你說,這是非常大件事,不是說啊,現在改改就好了每一項都要去了解去做,尤其是你認為本席說這樣"},{"start":4568.779,"end":4581.983,"text":"如果問政府的時候,他不要說道啦,跟我嘉義市要那些零控訴,可以主管那些,跟財政可以再分那些的時候,是不是可以來補充,你回答一下感謝委員的關心,委員本來就是嘉義市非常認真發表的民意代表我也要跟委員報告,行政區劃法,我們是希望可以可長可久啦"},{"start":4596.148,"end":4600.35,"text":"不是因為今天這個地方有一個栗多我大家就擠擠在那裡有栗差的話大家都趕快遠離所以為什麼會碰到這個困難就是說大家都想要好的要肥肉的部分骨頭的部分或者是肌肉的部分就丟給別人"},{"start":4615.435,"end":4633.282,"text":"但是呢 又希望好的部分留下來 譬如說我剛剛有提到我們不管是地方制度 或者是行政區的話在處理縣市合併的時候 大家都希望好的合併那上一次有人在提到 譬如說這個某一個縣市就是有很多科學園區的地方 要不要合併這最重要 現在科學園區的地方 大家都要走出去"},{"start":4637.963,"end":4658.45,"text":"對 但是這個部分跟行政區的規劃比較沒有相關可是科學園區是會改變的所以我們很希望說它是大家一起來討論就是說這個公平的一個遊戲規則怎麼樣制定出來那可以看得出來在都會區的民意代表跟在非都會區的民意代表的想像是不一樣的"},{"start":4659.89,"end":4663.752,"text":"阿或者是說我剛剛所提的你剛才有說到的財政收支的微分的部分大家都希望說不好的先維持下去但是錢就要流下來阿這個部分財政收支劃分法如果針對我們行政區劃的處理的話它一定會有不同的想像"},{"start":4676.977,"end":4704.263,"text":"當然尊重以財政部為主的部分那再來地方制度就是剛剛所提的一般來講如果縣市要合併是地方縣市政府跟地方縣市議會兩個通過他們內部的一個程序如果同意以後可以報中央或是中央可以直接指定但是中央到目前為止通常沒有會直接指定因為這樣子不好沒有這個尊重民意但是地方要上來的時候呢這個四個地方縣市政府跟縣市議會意見就不一樣"},{"start":4706.523,"end":4720.656,"text":"如果四個地方的縣市的意見不一樣因為通常大的一定會零價小的多的一定會零價少的少的不同意多的一定同意然後小的不同意大的一定同意之類的"},{"start":4721.917,"end":4741.282,"text":"那這個我們就很難做決定所以通常都會卡住那這個跟這個不管是人的關係或者是生活圈的概念或者是財政的概念呢其實它是一個比較複雜的機制啦但是到目前為止呢雖然很多不管是在朝或在野的很多立委都提出來這樣子的一個爭議但是這個爭議呢對行政機關來講要把它收攏或者是一個有凝聚這個共識確實不容易"},{"start":4749.384,"end":4761.809,"text":"就好像說前兩年我們提出說行政區劃法乾脆就改成行政區劃程序法其實還沒有送到行政院就有人反對了所以我們也會碰到這方面的困擾柏庭在這裡本學要跟你說很乾脆的事情我們也要去做在這個你剛才說的跟本學所想的都一樣我們勿忙"},{"start":4771.053,"end":4773.995,"text":"發明的時候,電池是更加發電,更加好,資源更加多不是發明的時候,變成越增加越少,越沒有資源所以我們在這個發明的時候,也非常重要我們希望中央把電池用心用好,是要讓電池沒發電的,可以越發電,交通越方便"},{"start":4800.913,"end":4806.334,"text":"不要為了威嚇說如果沒有人愛,不愛就像議員在這裡,跟吃肉的都被撞上去這樣也不好,所以我希望部長可以說本席自己探討的問題未來我們要怎麼做的時候,一定要納入可以讓合平均的,不可以差太多,以上好,謝謝文委會委員"},{"start":4830.427,"end":4831.868,"text":"下一位我們請李博毅委員質詢謝謝部長 今天只能問你延續剛剛王美惠委員的話題我想跟部長請教很簡單的問題台灣現在是民主 我覺得不只民主最重要的是法治的社會"},{"start":4856.065,"end":4882.829,"text":"這一個法治的社會如果有遇到過去我當然小時候曾經看過啦有幫派去包圍警察局的時候警察怎麼處理部長我不曉得委員小時候是指民國紀典的事情應該就是我小學的時候吧三十年前啊如果是現在的話大概不會有這樣的狀況馬上馬上就是因為他不能到那個警察機關前面去這樣幫派包圍警察局"},{"start":4883.362,"end":4910.845,"text":"就是質疑警察的執法能力質疑公權力現在有另外一件事情啦政黨率人去包圍地檢署這是要做什麼他影響台灣的法治影響檢察官判決或者是影響檢察官做相關調查的新政還要施壓恐嚇檢察官那所以呢當天"},{"start":4912.469,"end":4930.054,"text":"中國國民黨號召包圍台北地檢署警政署舉牌七次裡面包含蔣萬安市長在7點24分的時候在北檢外面受訪7點29分進入禁制區內7點40分發言7點54分離開中間警政署很有技巧在蔣萬安進到"},{"start":4941.217,"end":4952.492,"text":"禁制區以後沒有舉牌過等到蔣萬安出了這個禁制區之後才第二次舉牌部長"},{"start":4953.963,"end":4978.966,"text":"首都市長進入台北地檢署禁制區內企圖影響司法當然內政部有內政部處理的方式我在這邊要講的是全台灣都在看台灣的法治倒退而且由台北市長帶頭啦在蔣萬安身上永遠留下一筆破壞台灣不是民主喔是法治的觀念"},{"start":4980.165,"end":4985.011,"text":"跟30年前幫派去圍警察局有什麼不一樣不是你有沒有辦法做一個回應"},{"start":4990.505,"end":5012.903,"text":"第一個我們的集會遊行法希望能夠去政治化任何人如果你要挑戰集會遊行法裡面尤其是法律所訂定的部分的話站在主管機關的立場我有要求就是要嚴正執行那所以呢我也覺得我們的警員非常的警察非常的辛苦尤其是這一次呢以台北市警局當然我們還有若干的這個保安警察"},{"start":5013.803,"end":5037.589,"text":"在兩天的時間內幾乎24小時在旁邊待命所以我剛有講過台北市警這個是警政署執法的當然辛苦還有技巧但是我們要跟國人說明的還是很重點的一個為什麼北檢外面不是可以拘禁的地方為什麼是禁制區因為這些人想要影響檢察官的調查"},{"start":5040.697,"end":5065.202,"text":"就跟法院要判決前你到司法院去辦什麼活動都是一樣的都是企圖要影響這直接影響了台灣最有價值的民主第二個法治我們這是一個法治國家是謝謝 謝謝部長接下來我想針對今天的這個內容剛才主席也有講到包含這個賴清德總統擔任院長的時候其實提出來的"},{"start":5067.85,"end":5083.088,"text":"行政區劃法其實要完整的講賴院長那時候的想法應該是把公債法行政區劃法還有財政收支劃分法一起來談因為這個行政區劃法其實剛剛部長也講到很重要的一點"},{"start":5083.789,"end":5111.77,"text":"希望如果有行政區劃法之後這個行政區劃會是完整的而不是今天某個鄉鎮他希望他可以劃入另外一個直轄市那所以由鄉鎮來公投我覺得這個問題會是更麻煩更複雜那尤其我覺得以北北、基桃會比較多這些相關的事務包含很多新北市的離台北市就一線之隔"},{"start":5112.47,"end":5133.75,"text":"那他們也要主張如果有台北市的門牌的話這個房價暴增一坪馬上暴增所以這個議題其實需要內政部還有行政院一樣要做出比較完整的一些討論尤其是跟地方的討論千萬千萬我們一定不能像財化法一樣"},{"start":5134.731,"end":5159.515,"text":"一劃下去整個行政區劃都亂掉我覺得這個是我們內政委員會接下來必須要很嚴肅很嚴正的來討論這些問題包含它是程序法或者是接下來的相關的公聽會以及跟地方政府的相關的這些討論希望內政部都可以跟地方政府來做一些比較完整的討論那我也看到"},{"start":5161.035,"end":5176.441,"text":"從2018年這個行政院提出這個院版之後呢到2023年內政部也有對是不是納入公投有做一些相關的研究的報告我想這些都是我們必須要很嚴肅的來討論跟參考的來請這個市長來做一個回應2023年後來這個公投的演繹"},{"start":5186.377,"end":5202.695,"text":"用委託研究基本上對於公投參考各國的經驗並不是必要的程序有些國家反而公投會牽涉到多大的區域要公投公投反而會變成行政區塊的阻礙也有這種情況"},{"start":5206.019,"end":5217.674,"text":"所以都是要很嚴肅的來討論當然今天召委的意思是說你要讓這個區的人充分發聲他沒有要保證說就要讓你劃進去新北市啦謝謝"},{"start":5227.802,"end":5235.521,"text":"我們要的就是一個遊戲規則啦內容上都可以在法條的時候討論但我們希望有具體的進度好不好好 謝謝李柏毅委員的資訊下一位我們請黃婕委員"},{"start":5243.68,"end":5259.062,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請部長劉國民黨有請部長想先跟您請教上禮拜國民黨的黨主席朱立倫率領國民黨的立委跟議員到了集會遊行的靜置區去抗議"},{"start":5260.023,"end":5281.442,"text":"那我不知道說當然部長非常有魄力第一時間就是有用這個急擁法說如果都有進到禁制區包括朱立倫主席謝龍介以及他們的發言人楊志宇等等要直接移送法辦那我想問喔因為其實在場還有其他的人包括徐巧欣等等他們把這個鐵馬護欄都推倒了"},{"start":5284.384,"end":5307.647,"text":"那請問這樣有違反什麼樣的法律嗎報告委員這樣的部分的話我們請這個警政同仁在現場因為他們有收證我們根據收證的事實的話就按照相關的規定來辦理那當然您剛所提到的部分就是說因為他們在到這個北檢前面去做抗議的時候本來就是由國民黨的黨主席發動的"},{"start":5308.868,"end":5332.482,"text":"那再來就是他的發言人也在現場所以我們台北市警局在回應台北市議會的很多質詢的時候特別提到這三位可能把他列為是守謀或者是他的發起活動的代言人是好謝謝部長說明那當然如果有違反這個社會法或是其他違反自由法的人士我也都希望這個警政署可以依法來辦理"},{"start":5333.382,"end":5337.784,"text":"那我也要在這邊要聲援當天包括四茶貓到現場可是其實警察在現場並沒有去協助維持民眾的人身安全那甚至他被暴力對待被用瓶子這樣子丟然後甚至是被打都沒有警察出手相助那這個畫面也看得非常多民眾覺得很心疼就是你一個集會"},{"start":5357.952,"end":5370.198,"text":"最重要的 警察在現場最重要的工作就是維持所有民眾的人身安全不要讓這樣的衝突加劇可是我看到的是警察在現場放任這樣的行為不斷的發生甚至讓民眾的情緒越來越高漲最後這個暴民衝上去然後攻擊一個無辜的民眾那我不希望接下來還有這樣的事情發生"},{"start":5381.983,"end":5392.996,"text":"所以我要在這邊拜託部長拜託警政署接下來一定要務必讓所有的民眾都是安全的好嗎是 報告委員這件事情包括您在內有多位委員來質詢所以我們有從旁來協助這位網紅他如果有需要提告的話那我們按照相關規定來辦理"},{"start":5401.286,"end":5419.87,"text":"好謝謝部長說明那再來進到今天這個行政區劃法這行政區劃法我大致看了一下其實覺得牽涉的層面真的非常廣非常非常的複雜包括剛剛其實博弈委員提到你光是一個行政區你前面他的行政區改了一個名字就例如說啦"},{"start":5421.051,"end":5442.091,"text":"萬華區改中正區中正區改萬華區就好了哇這個地價房價可能就差很多然後再來如果你改了一個住址下去可能你的身份證要改你的交通的節點所有的資訊全部都要改所有的資料這裡的路名什麼的全部都要改那這個可能都是"},{"start":5443.192,"end":5460.544,"text":"這是幾大的事情一改下去大家都要重新的調整那這個也需要非常大的一筆經費那再來就是如果到時候選區重新劃分然後土地面積人口都有重新切割的話那可能在座的民代可能席次也會受影響"},{"start":5461.144,"end":5488.499,"text":"立委啦 議員啦然後包括當地的村里長等等是不是之後的席次也都要重新調整這個也必須要來考慮那再來我覺得最重要的還是如果接下來包括其實剛剛我們主席有提到的這個回籠到底要不要併台北的問題這個其實應該也要跟我們地方縣市政府討論過吧那剛剛我不知道部長是說前年的時候是已經都有跟各縣市政府討論過一輪了是嗎"},{"start":5491.169,"end":5515.574,"text":"好基本上是討論制度上的問題而不是個案的討論OK所以就是還沒有進到說要意願要或不要而是說這個授權到底要不要給出去是這樣子嗎是基本上的討論還是在制度上的討論對那對那我好奇的是說那大家有沒有共識覺得說要不要先把這個程序法的授權先給出來"},{"start":5517.301,"end":5532.009,"text":"到底誰來決定然後要不要開始進行這個討論了大家各縣市現在的共識如何我還蠻好奇的就是大家如果有共識那我們來討論我覺得都很正面看待可是我不知道現在各縣市的態度到底如何"},{"start":5532.389,"end":5546.718,"text":"因為像我自己在高雄市我也還不知道說我們高雄市其實包括我們市長或是其他的其他的立委的意見議員的意見然後里長大家的意見如何這個是不是還需要再收攏還是說你們其實有共識"},{"start":5548.905,"end":5572.614,"text":"在一般各種不同區域的調整的這個部分包含這個不同跨縣市之間的或直轄市的改制當然有很多不同的意見那事實上在地方制度法裡面是有規定說直轄市改制之後的區域必須做一些調整剛剛也有一些委員有提到但是因為"},{"start":5573.784,"end":5587.974,"text":"這個整個的調整的一個範圍包含小到區大到可能跨這個縣市之下等等有涉及到不同的一個法律的層面所以討論商要收攏的確要花一些時間來做討論"},{"start":5589.534,"end":5619.154,"text":"好謝謝對啊因為聽起來真的是牽涉層面太廣了所以我剛剛光是我提的這幾個問題接下來如果要討論可能一項一項都要來細緻的討論那當然我覺得在此之前可以先做的是資源的分配啦因為這個行政區劃法很多縣市的目的也都是希望說接下來的生活圈可以讓同一個生活圈可以一致然後使用同樣的資源大家的資源分配下去是平均的但是我認為在此之前其實才劃法就可以做啦"},{"start":5619.694,"end":5626.721,"text":"那只是因為現在新的財劃法上路之後我不知道說財劃法上路之後會不會跟這個行政區劃法接下來有漢格或是衝突的地方好 請財政部說明一下因為我乍看之下光是說因為原本有一個直轄市的分配額嘛那如果直轄市的分配額就例如說現在我一個非直轄市的一個區撥出去了"},{"start":5645.509,"end":5664.967,"text":"那會不會反而因為財劃法的關係讓新的行政區劃法被撥出去之後反而享受不到原本的資源我擔心的是這個是跟我們報告那行政區劃法的這個如果他的這個計劃施行之後那在這個財政收支劃分的部分必須要配合來做檢討"},{"start":5667.937,"end":5692.123,"text":"對所以因為我們才剛修完才化法那當然我沒有很認同原本的現在的版本只是說如果到時候我們要來處理行政區劃法才化法還要再重修對不對必須要重新再檢討調整是的所以其實我看下去有非常多部法律必須要同時重新討論包括地方制度法跟我們行政區劃法到底有沒有衝突的地方然後包括才化法"},{"start":5692.563,"end":5712.317,"text":"是不是也要搭配著調整那這是一個非常大非常多部法律必須要同時來檢討的一件事情所以我希望如果接下來要討論可以那是不是也可以委請交委再多辦幾場公聽會然後我們再把地方縣市都邀來大家再把一件事情一件事情細細的討論之後那尋求一個共識再上路"},{"start":5717.213,"end":5726.722,"text":"好那這個就是相信大家應該都都希望可以朝這個方向啦那希望這個部長接下來也持續的收攏地方的意見好謝謝"},{"start":5730.075,"end":5754.986,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員的質詢我跟委員會報告排公聽會當然沒有問題但是因為現在大家在討論看起來目前為止的狀況就是說不可能去涉及在一部法律裡面涉及實質的東西先要有遊戲規則像我們跟地方縣市政府如果有討論現在狀況一定是我連遊戲規則都沒有要怎麼討論所以你實質的東西並不會有任何的進展我們希望透過法案的審查、詢答、公聽會等等就盡速的把這個遊戲規則催生出來以利討論以上跟大家補充說明"},{"start":5758.388,"end":5759.569,"text":"下一位我們請徐益臻委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請劉世芳 劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":5777.425,"end":5803.245,"text":"部長好我想今天我們討論的是行政區劃法的部分其實這個內政部在民國80年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作那到了106年當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統在年終記者會議均衡台灣為題宣誓將啟動研議台灣行政區的重劃那在107年的5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案"},{"start":5804.045,"end":5824.426,"text":"那我想不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併其實都需要有完整的法源依據才能避免爭端那當然我們今天在討論兩個版本之前我們可以先回顧到四年前在2021年的時候時任新竹市長林志堅他拋出竹竹餅那當時新竹縣長楊文科這處長"},{"start":5827.089,"end":5855.798,"text":"猪猪喵合并那人口数就可以达到升格为直辖式的门槛但也牵扯出县市合并缺乏法源基础当然当时民进党为了猪猪并有强推地方制度法的修法并以禁服二读的方式闯关当然最后在国民党的强力杯葛之下修法到目前并没有通过那请问部长县市合并应该是要由上而下还是由下而上来整合推动"},{"start":5856.483,"end":5879.728,"text":"報告委員現在兩種這個方式都可以但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動因為還是要有綜合地方的民意所以由下而上來推動的話我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們的這個公民行政的方向我想不管由上而下由下而上其實最重要就是要有明確的法源"},{"start":5880.369,"end":5890.29,"text":"才能避免過去因人涉事的爭議那請問部長內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作"},{"start":5891.268,"end":5917.454,"text":"報告委員我們在那個113年的9月的時候呢當時就是前任的這個這個內政部長有提到說是不是我們用行政區劃的程序法的方式來推動那但是呢因為我們在要推動到行政院去參考的過程當中呢很多專家學者會覺得說光就行政區劃的這樣的遊戲規則推動的時候呢你如果沒有去把這個實質法"},{"start":5918.854,"end":5939.671,"text":"包括財政的部分所以那支部有規劃提出嗎目前我們是有一個送到這個行政院的一個審查當中是109年送上去叫行政區劃程序法109年送上去那今年是114年了就是5年前送上去對 但是剛剛有跟委員提到就是行政院在111年有審查之後有提出四個這個原則的疑義我剛在這個書面報告還有這個口頭報告都提到了"},{"start":5946.596,"end":5973.051,"text":"就是跟地方制度的界階的問題還有公民投票的問題請部長針對不管是行政區劃法還是行政區劃法的這個程序法的草案也希望盡快能夠不能像一拖了五年然後完全都沒有下文是我們會來努力謝謝部長那另外想請教部長就是在2008年11月的時候時任民進黨的主席蔡英文在民進黨執政時會能修正集會遊行法來道歉那"},{"start":5974.412,"end":6000.409,"text":"集會遊行法的第六條規定禁制區就是如果集會遊行的話須經政府同意並在第六條規定禁制區針對極有法的爭議大法官釋字第718號也有指出緊急集會無需許可那部長你說要將4月17號到台北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦請問你移送我了嗎"},{"start":6001.729,"end":6025.78,"text":"報告委員我剛所說的部分就是說在我們的集會遊行法的規定裡面我們會按照規定來處理如果必要的話就是移送法辦但是移送法辦的過程當中還有包括我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁他們在收證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據所以我們現在就是依照台北市我給你看嘛我在現場"},{"start":6026.68,"end":6046.186,"text":"我剛有跟委員報告過就是說我們移送的過程當中我們是尊重警政署的意見過去八年啦我想民進黨執政的時候都認為這個民進黨之前主張極右法是惡法結果現在民進黨執政的時候卻用這個來打壓一級那按照部長的標準您可以看一下"},{"start":6046.946,"end":6066.639,"text":"在2008年我剛有講過了時任立委的賴清德總統擔任民進黨的幹事長提出集會遊行的修法那要將許可制改為報備職而且取消集遊管制區並刪除主管機關的命令集會遊行的一個權利那甚至在2008年的這個"},{"start":6068.76,"end":6090.947,"text":"這個雲林地檢署這個有關蘇志芬的社會案當時呢我們的民進黨的立委柯建民也有號召群眾包圍地檢署另外呢在去年的這個2024年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院當時的柯建民總召有在現場蠱惑甚至宗家兵也有移除柵欄揮手衝進青鳥"},{"start":6095.115,"end":6117.309,"text":"那請問當時有移送法辦嗎當時部長你有主張要向這些人移送法辦嗎報告委員那個立法院立法院是可以這樣子的嗎立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎是可以這樣子的方式嗎就我所了解立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區"},{"start":6118.647,"end":6121.85,"text":"所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣投放進來嗎可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎"},{"start":6124.878,"end":6150.777,"text":"我們都依法行政我們當然鼓勵依法行政但是不能只是半藍不爛綠但是也要有事實的依據我們是依據事實來做任何集會遊行法的規定所以當時沒有嘛那我再請教一下部長您看一下4月19號的民進黨的遊行依照集遊法第四條的規定集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土那現場有人主張台獨算不算違反集遊法要不要全部移送法辦"},{"start":6152.037,"end":6179.816,"text":"這個我們會尊重這個警政署對於集會遊行法上面的事實依據來做是否移送的根據部長我要提醒你喔有時候不要對民進黨有利的你們就堅持然後對於現在呢你們就是辦男不辦女所以希望集會遊行法如果過時了就應該要修正該修正就要修正所要不要移送的部分的話是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定那部長你那時候在講說全數要移送是下至到期嗎"},{"start":6180.436,"end":6207.094,"text":"沒有,我跟委員報告,我所說的部分我想委員按照依法委員職權行使法跟按照極有法,或是按照社會秩序維護法各種不同的主要機關我在行政系統,不敢去干預司法那尤其是我們在野黨,請你們一定要依法行政,不要辦懶不辦理是,我一定是依法行政,謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":6208.942,"end":6224.693,"text":"好 謝謝徐益臻委員的質詢 下一位我們請吳祁銘委員好 主席我們與會同仁請我們內政部部長 劉部長有請"},{"start":6231.315,"end":6253.38,"text":"委員好 部長好 今天我們行政區劃分法這個籌劃這個劃分法的意義 我看今天很多委員 大家都針對區域因為我們區域真的有點混亂 所以在107年在我們的行政院也有提出區劃法"},{"start":6255.538,"end":6280.406,"text":"但是在過去那幾年因為大家的共識還不過吧那今天我看咱的召委又排這個行政企劃法但是咱的行政企劃法你要實施之前呢應該是地方政府要先去統籌因為有很多區域我看咱的召委他所說的在我們飛龍這個地方"},{"start":6283.243,"end":6307.031,"text":"這位所在以前在台北縣跟現在新北市大家都認為說山不管地帶山不管地帶但是你這是面臨兩個直轄市桃園跟新北那你還是要地方去統籌好才辦來公聽會甚至到中央來制定那不然你制定了"},{"start":6308.56,"end":6322.237,"text":"縣市不配合那也是沒辦法實施那因為在新北市存在的很多包含你了解在我們本郊契坤契坤你知道嗎我知道剛才委員有報告到有一間酒櫃這邊叫大漢溪"},{"start":6328.492,"end":6350.389,"text":"旁邊這七億一塊是板橋一塊是全部都是樹林所以這整個七億未來要討論有很多七億都要納入去討論包含我們的三峽我們的北大北大一半又是樹林一半又是三峽所以我認為說不是我們在中央來"},{"start":6353.301,"end":6378.531,"text":"來開這個會應該是從地方縣市鄉鎮當然現在是七啦這些來做個統籌統籌的看怎樣來做大家畢竟有兩個直轄市也要取得兩個縣直轄市的共識你才有辦法來推動啊不能像我們財化法你財化法中央制定你"},{"start":6379.605,"end":6397.16,"text":"地方上還是沒辦法成共識那你又會面臨像財化法一樣是不是這樣 博定是 感謝委員對地方上的關心蘇息兄我們現在碰到的一個困擾就是說它有分成中央的層級跟地方的層級"},{"start":6398.081,"end":6414.173,"text":"地方的層級有些是地方縣市自己內部譬如說區跟區要不要整併或者鄉鎮跟鄉鎮要不要整併或者是林里要不要做整併要分開或者調整或者這個部分的話是地方制度的牽涉的面向比較廣"},{"start":6415.034,"end":6435.106,"text":"另外一個就是跨縣市那跨縣市還有跨直轄市或跨非直轄縣市的問題還有一個是整個大區域就好像有人也在提倡說全台灣是不是只要分成四區就好了北北基桃一大區那這個呢都會牽涉到非常多的部分因為不是只有人口面積跟土地還有它的資源"},{"start":6436.127,"end":6457.615,"text":"要不要重新分配那我想民意代表站在民意的這個立場上面一定會爭取最好的方式但是每個人都爭取最好的方式的話那就比較不好的就會被不被爭取那這樣的狀況之下呢我們如果再加入一個公民複決或是公民投票的方式的話會加深他的"},{"start":6458.115,"end":6487.065,"text":"那個城鄉差距或資源分配上不公平的地方所以我們剛有特別提到就是如果要切除掉這些爭議性非常大的只剩下一個程序法就是制定遊戲規則到底夠不夠目前看起來有些學者他們覺得這樣是不夠的也就是說我們把所有全台灣的這樣子從小到村裡大到整個這個直轄縣市要不要合併的部分全部把它放到一個行政區劃的程序法裡面呢"},{"start":6487.765,"end":6498.603,"text":"恐怕會置私欲焚所以為什麼說六次的推動不管是藉其不敘審或是當時有些滾動式的縣市合併的問題都沒有辦法整併得非常的好"},{"start":6499.747,"end":6528.468,"text":"像譬如說我現在看到新北市是直接升格那桃園呢也是直接升格那台中縣市是合併升格那高雄縣市呢是直接合併升格那台南市是直接合併升格那它的牽涉程序是縣市跟市那好像看起來只要縣市政府跟縣市議會經過他們的程序同意的報到行政院大概都不會有太大的困擾但是現在一直往下到那個區跟里"},{"start":6529.83,"end":6545.325,"text":"栗 栗啦 村的部分的話呢就會有點複雜因為那個中央如果要長臂管轄到那個部分的話確實用一個行政區劃法會有點這個會太複雜因為全台灣七八千個里"},{"start":6545.945,"end":6546.185,"text":"所以我也說"},{"start":6575.899,"end":6593.735,"text":"拜託保證 因為這一定要說地方政府跟地方政府大家都要先去協調好 是然後區會要去規劃好這樣我們才能整個 不然你中央好 答應了你就像財務法在地方上又有非常多的聲音那這樣我們在這裡用 因為這"},{"start":6596.617,"end":6617.009,"text":"企劃法未來的規劃是牽扯好幾十年的事啊可能話下去就不會再改變了你當了部長我們當了民意代表未來都要承受啊好不好還是要謹慎啦要很完整的規劃好不好謝謝委員指教"},{"start":6620.616,"end":6637.841,"text":"好謝謝吳祁銘委員您提供了兩個很好的例子所以各區裡面也都有行政區調整的問題但我還要再次強調沒有遊戲規則就沒辦法討論因為大家現在遇到這個事第一時間就說啊現在沒有法源依據所以就沒討論我是覺得這真的是比較可惜所以遊戲規則遊戲規則我們反覆強調好下一位我們請高金素美委員質詢謝謝主席有請部長還有園民會中副主委劉部長中副主委有請"},{"start":6651.642,"end":6664.854,"text":"也請部長看一下我們中府主委他在105年的時候他有寫過原住民族政策的發展跟影響這當中他有提到原住民族政策的目標是以原住民族的史觀詮釋歷史為事實基礎"},{"start":6668.317,"end":6694.328,"text":"然後規劃原民轉型正義具體權利恢復或補償措施走向族群之間真正的和諧而這書中呢也明確的指出原住民史觀強調的是原民早於國家形成之前就已經存在主權人權自由理應該被承認跟尊重請教一下中副主委是委員"},{"start":6697.455,"end":6714.049,"text":"民進黨執政已經到10年了到今天而原住民使官跟主權的理念是否是有真正體現我們的行政區劃制度當中是不是有被納入我們有非常多的政策的規劃跟制度的設計更為包括這個在105年總統"},{"start":6720.919,"end":6740.711,"text":"蔡英文代表政府向民族道歉的時候就針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法所以我們在這幾年來針對原住民族史觀的建置我們都不遺餘力也處理了很多一些歷史事件的資料跟目前史觀的建置所以部長請問一下你也支持吧"},{"start":6741.846,"end":6764.269,"text":"是 我想剛剛副主委所講的部分也是我們的立場好 謝謝既然大家都同意的話那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史日據時期的翻地制度把原住民族隔離管理差別對待從制度上就切割了我們的主體性而殖民政權設置了什麼福肯署 資產局"},{"start":6765.45,"end":6780.455,"text":"粗暴的濫墾濫伐掠奪山林跟土地的資源我們比較遺憾的是殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中原住民族被行政區劃切割了"},{"start":6783.632,"end":6800.881,"text":"我相信中副主委你很清楚我也相信部長也很清楚包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為七個縣市而排灣族呢他跨越了屏東跟台東兩個地區族群的整體性遭完全的破壞"},{"start":6801.801,"end":6819.786,"text":"然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合因此在今天我非常支持召委的行政區劃法的構想這個構想是將族群特性人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量"},{"start":6820.566,"end":6839.338,"text":"那我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配他應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求請問一下部長您同意這樣子的看法嗎"},{"start":6841.08,"end":6857.611,"text":"呃我想呃我想那個高金委員所提到的部分呢就是對於原住民的關心哈嗯但是在行政區劃上面的確實沒有錯現行的行政區劃法呢在透過分流立法的方式呢並沒有現行哈並沒有把原住民"},{"start":6858.551,"end":6885.196,"text":"劃定在裡面原住民的區域但是未來如果有實質的民族自治尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議很好"},{"start":6888.357,"end":6911.838,"text":"也就是說由下而上 大家來共同討論 對吧好 所以我主張 既然大家都談到了原住民的自治原住民自治跟屠海法 其實在地法院講了很久一直都沒有付諸行動那既然自治還沒談到 我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法我們開始把這個構想概念放在裡面"},{"start":6912.478,"end":6936.145,"text":"所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央三脈保育軸為基礎然後來整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構這不僅僅只是資源的再分配的問題而是必須要結合產業發展、生態保育跟財政的調配"},{"start":6937.425,"end":6963.137,"text":"來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革我想以這樣子作為一個中心的討論的主軸中副主委你應該同意吧謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心的確這20幾年來如何自治如何劃分包括所謂土地也好或者權力也好或權限也好這個都是一直以來大家都在討論的一個議題"},{"start":6964.212,"end":6989.891,"text":"那針對委員的看法我是尊重委員這樣的一個想法好 非常謝謝不管是部長也好 園民會也好都同意我的看法也支持我的理念支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年中副主委你所寫的民族政策的發展跟影響 對吧那所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝趙偉提了今天的這個行政區劃法的構想跟概念那的確我們需要討論"},{"start":6991.212,"end":6995.557,"text":"因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論也沒有辦法定下遊戲規則所以我在這邊有兩個請求第一個我請內政部跟園民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項"},{"start":7008.952,"end":7024.906,"text":"並且希望你們在一週之內要回覆本席辦公室第一個就是針對上會期地制法第八十三之七條直轄市三地區財政挹注相關的問題我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果"},{"start":7026.007,"end":7044.577,"text":"第二個要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃的方案並且以本席剛剛所提到的國土計劃中裡面的中央三脈寶玉軸為基礎然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業"},{"start":7046.098,"end":7075.084,"text":"儘速提出具體方向跟時間因為有提出這個之後呢也方便我們在公聽會也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法以上兩點需求希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室可以嗎跟委員報告這兩個議題都尤其是第二個議題還蠻蠻難大的不曉得一週的時間夠不夠喔好那你認為要多久"},{"start":7075.998,"end":7100.118,"text":"因為這個一定不好討論協文部長報告委員是這樣子地制法八十三支七條的部分我的同仁是告訴我說財政部好像有一些他們的這個說明那另外就是有關國土計畫我想高俊維非常清楚國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中它是需要六年"},{"start":7101.124,"end":7126.164,"text":"的時間延到6年以後所以目前為止呢我們的國土計劃呢是以延到6年在區域計劃或者其他相關的計劃的時候再來做調整那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎我是很抱歉我比較才疏學淺我是第一次聽到是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後呢再來跟我們的國土計劃的相關單位提出一個方向好嗎"},{"start":7126.724,"end":7151.437,"text":"中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了是但是在國土計劃法裡面並沒有列進去對您當時還在做我們同事的時候其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸的問題但是現行的國土計劃法尤其是那個大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊所以我們並沒有在我們的這個這個行政單位的同仁裡面把它列為是這個現在要提出一週內要提出這個具體的時程所以你認為要多久的時間多久的時間能夠"},{"start":7154.679,"end":7167.967,"text":"我我我必須要問我們的國土署的同仁這樣子好不好給你們一個月的時間好不好至少至少至少要有一些看法那如果有任何意見的話可以到我辦公室我們來做一些討論好嗎"},{"start":7173.805,"end":7195.87,"text":"報告高經緯我們同仁說這個你所提到的國土空間發展的這個部分是國發會所提的部分讓我們回去我們自己行政單位做一下內部的這個資訊上的收集整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎所以一個月可以好那請內政部跟這個園民會一個月之內"},{"start":7197.561,"end":7213.75,"text":"對於以上我提的這兩個方案一個月之內能夠提供給我是就是內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊把它收攏過來以後再提供給委員參考好嗎好OK謝謝謝謝高清素美委員的諮詢下一位我們請廖先祥委員諮詢"},{"start":7231.26,"end":7253.026,"text":"好 謝謝部長 劉部長有請很主動 謝謝柳澤部長早安 這個今天討論的是行政區劃那行政區劃過去在北部的討論可能也是因為我是北部的民意代表說到的資訊也是比較多啦那也是因為在北部的行政區劃我們新北市的過去台北縣跟現在新北市的劃分"},{"start":7253.786,"end":7263.434,"text":"好像就是過去因為可能就是適應為了台北市的發展然後為了調整台北市的發展那剩下的給新北市所以說台北縣新北市的一個形狀大家看起來會比較奇怪所以說在過去的前部長林右昌在"},{"start":7269.299,"end":7289.329,"text":"當然基隆市長的時候也有提出他一些的構想包括基隆跟一些東北角跟北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市或者是跟汐止結合起來那到這個台北市變成大台北市或者是現在的基隆市長謝國良他也有做過一些去年有做一些討論就是可能北北基桃合併或者是基隆市直接來跟這個新北市來做合併那這兩個方案"},{"start":7296.212,"end":7313.357,"text":"那或者是說謝宜農先生不同政黨謝宜農先生也有提出來基隆跟汐止合併跟台北市合併那跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方那身為內政部的角色面對社會上那麼多的討論你們現在有沒有"},{"start":7315.518,"end":7333.311,"text":"自己的一些想法我不是說您支持哪些方案而是您有沒有看到現況的哪一些問題他們可能一定是看到現況的某些問題所以才提出來一些方案來討論那您就於對於北北基這樣子的行政劃分您看到的一些問題那可能未來您認為可能會調整的方向大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":7333.951,"end":7351.383,"text":"是謝謝委員對於選區裡面或者是說對於周遭的一些城鄉發展的部分那我跟委員這個做一個比較大致上的我的想法第一個就是說很多委員會覺得說如果把所有的這些區劃的調整全部放在行政區劃法確實太複雜"},{"start":7353.564,"end":7369.409,"text":"因為它所有的地理條件也好或者人口或是發展的條件都不相同所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序但是在處理程序的過程當中不是只有由上而下譬如說由行政院跟縣市地方政府然後共同決定"},{"start":7370.049,"end":7397.442,"text":"它裡面還有立法院還有各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至如果以宜蘭為主還有鄉鎮代表會那這些都代表民意這是一個那另外一個就是說如果只有處理程序然後不處理實質也就是說我們把它劃進去譬如說汐止它現在的生活圈是以新北為主還是基隆為主還是台北為主可能您的選民就有不同的意見所以你要以生活圈來劃區劃"},{"start":7399.443,"end":7426.77,"text":"或者是要以譬如說可能是跟自己的剛剛有委員有提到我是原住民的區劃為主那就各種不同的想法但是呢我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去要把它收攏所以我們才會說爭議很大那過去呢這個歷任呢好多委員不管是朝野的委員都有提到甚至我們自己行政院有六次但六次都沒有辦法成功不是因為委員不夠努力而是因為意見太多"},{"start":7427.85,"end":7449.159,"text":"你說六四是指法的部分還是法律法律是意見無法收容那委員如果會程序歸程序啦或是說這個剛剛講的就是一些背景問題那我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題是實質上的問題就是我剛剛所說的很多委員會希望爭取最好的在自己的選區"},{"start":7450.6,"end":7477.345,"text":"啊不好的不要在我的選區就是也沒有好不好啦這個這個都是都是我們的民眾嘛不會有就像基隆市長謝國良的立場或者是說這個台北市新北市長侯友宇的立場不一樣他們是首長嘛你說你要把新北市的六個區撥給基隆市那當然行政總長立場一定會認為他一定會認為不是那麼的妥當嘛我過去的發言他的立場就是這樣子嘛但是"},{"start":7477.665,"end":7499.743,"text":"不同樣的一個位置不一樣的行政單位所看到的角度是不一樣地方行政首長有地方首長看到行政區劃的一個角度那我們內政部是看全國性的我們會有全國性的一個角度那一定是現況有一些需要討論的事情嘛所以說基隆其實基隆當然是首長討論比較多那當然我是系者的民意代表嘛"},{"start":7500.123,"end":7525.431,"text":"系者民眾也會有相關的討論那一定是看到現況的問題比如說生活圈剛剛部長講的生活圈或是交通建設基隆捷運為什麼一條基隆捷運需要跨到這個台北市 汐止 基隆交通建設需要三個行政所擋在同一邊變成說地方建設的一個討論它的程序會比其他地方來的困難或者說增加一些程序所以大家才希望說在行政"},{"start":7526.391,"end":7550.88,"text":"去化方面能夠做一些檢討來減少一些我們行政程序上面本位主義上面的一些摩擦所以才請教部長您看到的實際的問題有哪一些可能可以怎麼樣來檢討我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的如果你是屬於中央層級要決定的部分的話我可能要決定譬如說北北基島是不是一個大的生活圈"},{"start":7551.58,"end":7566.927,"text":"所以既然是一個大的生活圈在現在行政院他並沒有強制要求說這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市而是先解決您剛所說的捷運是不是可以四通八達這個北北基桃都可以在裡面甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭我想你也非常清楚"},{"start":7567.447,"end":7584.113,"text":"這是我們看到的但是地方裡面譬如說新北市你新北市區公所下面還有一些禮要不要調整那如果你調整出去或調整進來會牽涉到什麼會牽涉到議員的額度又不一樣了人口不一樣"},{"start":7585.433,"end":7607.542,"text":"對我的立場來說其實細子病走說不定我這個問題就不在但其實我不是很在乎啦好的方案才是最重要啦那我知道可能今天臨時跟您討論這個比較敏感的問題你也不敢講太直接但我既然知道既然我們要再次討論行政區劃法那我想北北基這個問題是不是未來就會被討論出來那我們行政院必須要有自己行政院的一個"},{"start":7608.662,"end":7636.92,"text":"方案或者是立場跟想法來做一些討論我們行政院的方案譬如說國發會它有對於公共建設的部分會比較好因為可以跨縣市那但是呢財政部的話就財政收支另外不同部會我們內政部就是管這個行政區域的主管機關所以我們會很困難那後續就是希望有一些更實質上的一些想法能夠做討論所以我們非常支持說如果用公聽會的方式把不管是跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來"},{"start":7638.221,"end":7664.789,"text":"請他們講一下他們對於這個行政區劃的基本上的看法後面理解可不可以提出比較建設性的方案的話我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝廖先祥委員這委員跟我一樣即便行政區會影響到我們的選區但是人民的利益是比我們個人政治利益還重要的好謝謝那這個丁學忠委員發言完之後我們休息三分鐘現在請丁學忠委員質詢"},{"start":7667.165,"end":7672.891,"text":"感謝主席 感謝副長我認為最近在地方都聽到一些像我們這個道路特寬的開發案上到我們這個土地證書審議小組去討論 時間都比較久但是在這裡也希望跟我們的國庭討論一下 有一些案"},{"start":7689.827,"end":7693.009,"text":"需要土地整合 都已經來完成了在那邊把岸上跟我們國的神蹟發現有時候會五百斤新澤園 還有時候又會卡成古雖然我們來這邊國王啊 請勞您來這個新澤園 想有什麼可以"},{"start":7711.862,"end":7735.432,"text":"來改變這個方式 增加我們區域的速度 加這個效力感謝委員的關心 我知道有兩個你委員比較在乎 我請我們的行政董事長跟你回答一下好 委員委員所垂詢的部分應該是滿國大大就上禮拜在土增小組討論這兩案那這兩案其實在討論的過程中其實小組針對整個案子的一些公閉性部分 還有一些疑慮"},{"start":7736.132,"end":7749.146,"text":"那也請雲林縣政府在補正中,那我們會盡量去協助雲林縣政府在補強這一塊那事先做檢視,那如果過程中如果沒有問題的話,會盡快來排會處理一個見識案,其實我們覺得說,時間拖延久,對地方的發電會有關啦或是說土地清修已經達到90多塊啦"},{"start":7758.888,"end":7762.15,"text":"時間也已經達到九十五分鐘了創業的國分 希望我們這個省座可以維持當這個公共利益跟我們個人民眾的利益這個中間的均衡可以順利的合作來完成這個國分希望可以來到三天"},{"start":7780.676,"end":7794.812,"text":"定委員的關心我們會盡速來處理不過土增的條例就是這個樣子那我們盡快會再跟雲林縣政府請他趕快把我們所這個會議結論裡面的部分趕快回應給我們那我們就可以盡快來通過土增"},{"start":7796.394,"end":7800.075,"text":"好 感謝姑娘 另外還有一項關於我們這個中教園間團體和大陸交流我們內政部正在向公開說明說有推出赴大陸交流資訊公開的專項歡迎你們團體和合作社要去大陸進行約會或是中教交流進行來登記來登錄這個活動資訊"},{"start":7826.994,"end":7834.698,"text":"我們鼓勵我們的社團宗教業務他們去登記他們為我的選區是很多的我們這個宗教的這個所在我們也希望說他們落實登記之後像之前像之前我過去也跟國長提起他們進行宗教交流所以要去接受調查"},{"start":7856.206,"end":7861.888,"text":"這個國分過去都有發生過像這個國分我們登錄實際來 登錄之後真的實際來 落實到我們政府的政策登錄公開化 透明化之後後來會發生什麼問題報告委員 我很感謝委員的支持我們現在就是 只要去大陸 大陸來沒有"},{"start":7880.27,"end":7891.995,"text":"我們是採取鼓勵制度啦 有一些宗教團體因為我們有本屆宗教團體的主巡會議六十幾個大廟來參加 因為這是好的風險所以在我們定期的部分是只有定期社團還是廟本身譬如說婚姻 白宮 媽祖經 只有這樣而已 裡面的人沒有"},{"start":7902.321,"end":7920.871,"text":"自然人沒有在那裡面他去的這個時間跟去的地點讓我們知道一下而且是採取自由的他如果不願意登記我們也沒有辦法我知道現在只是只是在公開資訊的話那未來會不會變成是有調查的方式的話那是"},{"start":7921.671,"end":7930.197,"text":"牽涉到我們的國安法跟反滲透法那又不一樣那不一定是內政部那不是內政部的主要主政我知啊我知啊這個國分我們也需要好好了解一下我們從高高樓從高高樓去到大樓我們金雙石都中國的事我們騙人家跟選舉搞的都有事我們就覺得很奇怪"},{"start":7943.405,"end":7944.806,"text":"包括委員這個要整體的可能要詢問相關的單位才會比較清楚希望啦 我也鼓勵宗教團體可以落實我們政府的政策 落實經濟這個資訊透明"},{"start":7958.359,"end":7962.281,"text":"我們都支持這個政策 希望宗教交流單純化就好真的六十來年我們就單純化就好 不過後來又發生到要再去調查我們覺得這樣對宗教交流的風向意向就已經不好"},{"start":7984.07,"end":8003.77,"text":"不過委員這裡面有立案登記的一個宗廟團體其實都是鼓勵人向上而且是以宗教為目的啦但是這裡面還有未立案未立案我們也鼓勵啦那未立案的話就比較複雜一點我想這一點可能要請委員多了解一下是 我了解 好 感謝國長 謝謝好 謝謝 按照剛剛宣告我們休息三分鐘"},{"start":8270.294,"end":8279.572,"text":"報委員會我們繼續開會我們繼續進行詢答接下來請黃建斌委員質詢黃建斌委員改書面下一位我們請徐欣穎委員質詢"},{"start":8298.082,"end":8301.344,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請部長 劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好部長好 今天我們這個召委非常的用心等於是我們這個所謂的行政區劃法已經是一部行政區劃法草案它已經是蒙城的一部草案"},{"start":8327.322,"end":8349.441,"text":"您知道从什么时候开始到现在吗从好像民国81年对对对民国81年到现在但历经难虑都没有人好像真正的很重视而且整个的来推动所以今天本席在开始咨询跟您讨论之前我想我们这一个"},{"start":8350.41,"end":8376.933,"text":"这个行政区划法的草案它关乎的刚刚前面很多委员都有讲到不管是我们这个整个的治理效能生活圈的整合甚至民主的原则各方面它凸显了很多问题所以我们才会觉得说这个草案不能再躺在那了我们必须好好的来讨论当然本席也听到部长您刚刚回答很多委员你都"},{"start":8377.533,"end":8404.493,"text":"等於說你很有經驗不管擔任民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長你覺得這個法案要討論會有很多的很繁雜的甚至也很多的困難很多的阻礙但是本席在這裡要先講的就是說難勝能勝所以才難能可貴我們的這個中央單位我們不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭應該多做一些解決民眾的問題"},{"start":8406.494,"end":8431.599,"text":"所以今天的讨论包括等一下本席提到的点也许有些会跟新竹有关但是我觉得我都不预设立场我也不为了不管是自己或是我们纯粹新竹县的利益而是要站在民众的需求还有这个时代的变迁它应该要能够来因应所以部长您认同吧这样的立场"},{"start":8432.539,"end":8458.025,"text":"徐委員所提的我很多都認同只有一件事情就是我們沒有搞鬥爭我們都是依法來行政尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法它是涉及到跨政黨跟跨縣市的我們感受就是說中央多做一些真正治理還有對民眾好的少搞一些對立接著本席要來就教我們現在整個的行政區劃法"},{"start":8459.125,"end":8487.526,"text":"它常常是都不太能反映都市人口的都市的發展跟人口的變遷所以產生了很多的問題等於是凸顯出我們行政區劃的這個要盡快來進行譬如我想剛剛王美惠委員也有提到我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來已經等於嘉義市人口已經有26萬加上嘉義縣"},{"start":8488.627,"end":8504.909,"text":"那这两个县市它分治那包含新竹县市也是一样新竹县现在人口已经60万新竹市46万加起来已经有100多万100万以上那现在像这种小县市"},{"start":8506.431,"end":8534.075,"text":"我們人民生活有很多的嫌惡設施包含像生命紀念園區像焚化爐大家都不是很想要但是如果這種生活圈或是區域的這種治理它可以整合的話那就不見得每個縣市它一定要有自己的可能像我們其實新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市"},{"start":8534.675,"end":8554.994,"text":"當然因為人口的一直的增加大概新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到應該也是會碰到就是說我們這個縣市所以站在這樣子您這個中央的立場是如何"},{"start":8555.995,"end":8569.105,"text":"報告委員那個其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的你沒有辦法容納所有的從國家發展到地方村里組織的部分所以我的意思就是說應該這樣講我們行政區劃你要去討論的時候"},{"start":8573.359,"end":8592.637,"text":"你一定會跟地方政府嘛跟所謂民意代表去溝通的時候那你的主力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題嘛所以您也一直的講我剛剛聽前面一些委員都說很困難很繁雜還有可能"},{"start":8593.457,"end":8607.022,"text":"有些人會同意有些人你說什麼大零價少然後多零價大零價小多零價少所以這個東西就是所以我本席的意思就是說我們應該是去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的"},{"start":8613.019,"end":8631.51,"text":"我想您大概不是很懂我們的意思接著我也譬如說像新竹縣市合併之前吵過你應該有印象像這個就是新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期它其實在民國七十幾年之前本來是合併的後來分開了"},{"start":8633.351,"end":8656.049,"text":"那現在分開以後各自發展得非常好然後又有這種合併的聲音但是本席要一直強調我沒有特定的立場但是新竹縣市你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在那很多的科學園區的工作的人口他是來自新竹縣市的所以新竹縣到新竹市有一個叫金國橋的"},{"start":8657.29,"end":8682.465,"text":"他這一條橋已經長期塞車20幾年了沒有解決因為縣市的分治縣市的分治沒有解決所以竹科的人可能正常時間不是上下班時間我可能騎車或開車20分鐘到上下班時間一個小時那如果再加上下雨一個半小時"},{"start":8683.875,"end":8693.901,"text":"這個就是一個很大的問題再來本席這個一個統計數字你看一下我們以這個稅收新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第五"},{"start":8698.742,"end":8726.575,"text":"贏過另外兩個六都六都的桃園市跟台南市但是我們得到新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第九就加起來它的得到的比例是第九那我這樣講不是凸顯說我要爭取什麼我們今天不管升格或不升格不能是利益考量但是你看我講的二十幾年的塞車情況"},{"start":8727.884,"end":8751.698,"text":"其實大家都現在每一個人都覺得這個我在這邊住30年20幾年永遠塞車我們中央也沒有協助你也知道一個交通的整個改善拓寬這不可能地方縣市政府可以這個跟這個我們整個的區域計畫是有關的那再來因為時間關係最後我要再提一點就是我們"},{"start":8753.004,"end":8773.675,"text":"整個的這個區域規劃尤其是升格它不是一種獎勵升格像這個你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例譬如我舉例像桃園市桃園市升格之後它的面積一樣人口數升格後升格前沒有差很多"},{"start":8774.275,"end":8786.017,"text":"但是因為他是直轄市所以變成他的公務人員新增了三千多人他的財政負擔也是一年人事費也增加了一百多億"},{"start":8786.94,"end":8813.732,"text":"那實際上這個服務的量能跟品質有沒有比較好不知道但是可能未來如果要考慮這個的話包含嘉義縣市新竹縣市或其他縣市你要合併的時候你一樣這麼大的面積人口數你合併之後他也不會急劇可是你如果合併之後你的這個人事費還有人事的這相關規定這個都要考量"},{"start":8814.472,"end":8823.324,"text":"您有聽懂本席表達的所以這些未來可能都是那我們今天因為主席排了這個案我們大家必須來正視必須來正視"},{"start":8826.877,"end":8851.223,"text":"所以這個很多縣市 再還有一個彰化縣彰化縣在台中升格之後其實整個彰化縣的人口也整個有吸食效應也這樣離開所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年這個行政區區劃法草案到現在本來只有一個直轄市現在變六個可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡"},{"start":8852.003,"end":8876.037,"text":"那你這個直轄市升格之後對旁邊的縣市它造成的影響跟效益這些我們都希望這個中央能夠來重視那現在既然如果要開啟本席是認為就是說是不是要不斷的溝通您一直說沒有共識沒有共識更要不斷的溝通討論更加努力的來凝聚共識"},{"start":8877.398,"end":8900.901,"text":"如果能夠達成而且能夠對台灣我們各縣市的不管是生活區域治理各方面能夠更好我們希望您這內政部長這邊也許跟院長反映總統反映我們應該積極來做剛剛本席沒提到就是北北基的這個大生活圈甚至大台北地區的這個交通各方面"},{"start":8901.742,"end":8915.791,"text":"所以不是我們民眾不希望只有到颱風降才有所有區域治理的整合我們希望生活上各方面也都能夠改善今天就是反映民意也希望部長部長你最後有沒有什麼要回應的"},{"start":8919.656,"end":8944.71,"text":"你們非常的關心也非常的了解狀況了您剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格升格是最重要不是只有合併但是就有人提到說那新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起這是一個那還有一個您剛提到中張投那彰化跟桃園中張投跟南投要不要跟台中一起那還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格但是旁邊的雲林跟"},{"start":8946.471,"end":8963.373,"text":"其他的縣市會不會就有不同的意見就是說這個是我們在考量當中啊就是跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實這很重要還有一個您提到零幣效應有這個焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常啊"},{"start":8964.174,"end":8980.34,"text":"大家都不希望那個畫到自己的選區裡面那這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾所以為什麼到現在為止啊有些比較小的這個縣市啊他們的這個這個林碧效應應該有的這個焚化爐都沒有以我們在高雄的例子來講"},{"start":8981.687,"end":9001.583,"text":"我們遠從這個中部還有到東部都代收幫忙處理這個環境的廢棄物那其實是非常大的困擾甚至跨離島都有那為什麼因為就是跟區域治理也產生不同的困擾所以也是提供給委員做參考那我們當然會來努力 這些我知道但這個跟每個行政首長他"},{"start":9002.344,"end":9019.711,"text":"要來做而且怎麼樣去突破這個都有關那剛剛你既然講到新竹縣市最後最後我想講一下當初新竹縣市的升格會為什麼會最後失敗而且被社會指責是因為當時只是一黨之私"},{"start":9020.031,"end":9044.731,"text":"因人設事所以造成了一些問題所以我們希望行政區劃要公開透明而且要長期規劃我本席最後強調人民的利益公眾的利益是唯一考量而且是最重要的考量希望部長我們接下來如果中央要來推動也不要因為很多困難都不溝通不凝聚不去討論所以我們希望還是要進步啦好 謝謝"},{"start":9047.775,"end":9073.585,"text":"好 謝謝徐欣穎委員的諮詢 下一位我們請鄭天才委員諮詢好 主席 有請部長還有中副主委劉副部長 中副主委有請"},{"start":9079.142,"end":9103.219,"text":"部長好 政府主委好今天談行政企劃法非常謝謝趙偉安排也提出了這個草案這個憲法第108條規定的很明確由中央立法並執行之行政企劃行政企劃必須要由中央來立法在內政部的報告裡面"},{"start":9104.079,"end":9126.213,"text":"也提到從81年內政部提出這個行政企劃相關的立法工作雖然這個在當時的立法院沒有完成但是還是要做畢竟這是憲法所賦予的職責所賦予的職責在怎麼樣去"},{"start":9128.38,"end":9154.406,"text":"這個積極的溝通協調提出這個好的一個法律的查案那現在既然這個召委安排了這個行政企劃法也提案了所以我的建議就是這個內政部應該也要提出相應的這些最起碼審查條文的時候要有一個把這個"},{"start":9157.697,"end":9184.869,"text":"認為經過多年的一個討論能不能讓大家都能夠有一個往共識的方向去努力的地方那對原住民族而言行政企劃法如果能夠通過對我們後面還沒有完成的事情就會有幫助譬如說這個原住民族基本法第四條規定"},{"start":9188.332,"end":9211.163,"text":"這個要實行原住民族自治因為現在只有這個山地鄉的這個地方自治還沒有民族的自治所以原住民族基本法第四條特別明定要制定原住民族自治法這會跟行政企劃也會有關係"},{"start":9213.646,"end":9237.337,"text":"那蔡總統在105年8月1號向原住民族道歉的時候也特別承諾我們會加快的把這個原住民族自治法送到立法院審議但是蔡總統任內的8年並沒有提出連從原民會送到行政院都沒有"},{"start":9239.299,"end":9265.972,"text":"這個部分也是從原住民族基本法通過之後陳水扁總統任內有把原住民族自治法從嚴明會送到這個行政院那馬英九總統任內也有跟原住民族自治相關的這些草案嚴明會送到這個行政院"},{"start":9266.75,"end":9289.815,"text":"行政院還把相關的這些草案送到立法院只不過是立法院後來沒有沒有完成是很遺憾很可惜那在過去的8年現在已經9年了我們先講這個原住民族基本法94年公佈施行現在正好20年了20年了20年這個前任的"},{"start":9297.344,"end":9319.578,"text":"蘇貞昌院長他說要分流立法既然要分流立法原住民族自治法一步到位有困難所以有分流立法接下來我就提了這個這個跟內政部的職責有關係我們看外島彭福縣金門縣連江縣"},{"start":9322.196,"end":9350.787,"text":"都是縣他人口也不多人口面積都不多所以我曾經提出在上一屆提了這個地方制度法的修法要成立原住民族自治縣只要三萬人以上合併原住民的鄉鎮市合併之後達到人口三萬人以上"},{"start":9351.721,"end":9381.241,"text":"就是這個三萬人是根據參考什麼就是參考外島的人口數當然我們的面積絕對是比他們大絕對比他們大所以這個要成立自治線這樣的一個建議這樣的一個草案當初在上一屆沒有完成請問一下部長這個地方制度法如果我們提出草案來修正的話"},{"start":9382.764,"end":9410.214,"text":"這要成立原住民族自治縣部長的意見報告委員我不是很清楚說所謂的原住民族鄉鎮市合併後之三人口達三萬人以上那他是根據什麼樣子的法源來授權的那目前在我們的地方製度法裡面或者行政區劃法裡面呢並沒有這樣的法源基礎就是要修法就是要修法因為既然這個"},{"start":9412.06,"end":9437.627,"text":"以民族以民族來去成立有困難的話那是不是最起碼整個一個縣 增加一個縣就好增加一個縣原住民族自治縣 一個縣那個只要是跟這個當然要經過 我的條文當時是這樣都要經過"},{"start":9440.305,"end":9469.168,"text":"各縣市政府以及議會的同意譬如說譬如說這個以南投縣來講南投縣信義鄉跟這個仁愛鄉他要合併跟其他的鄉要合併成立自治縣的話必須要經過南投縣議會南投縣政府的同意譬如說"},{"start":9470.514,"end":9497.221,"text":"這個加一阿里山鄉也是一樣阿里山鄉事實上這些我上次這些縣都願意了為什麼他那麼遙遠偏遠了以高雄市來講部長你在高雄市待過嗎那三個區要離開的話我相信高雄市議會的同意都會同意是這樣的所以這個部分的"},{"start":9498.826,"end":9500.351,"text":"這個未來希望能夠繼續的討論 好不好謝謝時間的關係 謝謝"},{"start":9506.032,"end":9533.79,"text":"好謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢下一位蘇巧慧委員改書面下一位請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員好不在好我們現在這個登記發言的委員除了不在場者之外其餘均已發言完畢我們的詢答結束黃劍斌委員蘇巧慧委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":9535.171,"end":9541.444,"text":"報告委員會這次會議我們要進行法案條文的宣讀現在請宣讀討論事項所列法案之條文請宣讀"},{"start":9543.752,"end":9566.488,"text":"委员牛雪婷等17人提案委员邱正军等18人提案名称行政区划法委员牛雪婷等17人提案委员邱正军等18人提案第一条本法依中华民国宪法第108条第一项第二款规定制定之委员牛雪婷等17人提案委员邱正军等18人提案第二条本法所称主管机关在中央委内政部在直辖市为直辖市政府在县市为县市政府"},{"start":9567.168,"end":9594.636,"text":"委员刘许婷等17人提案委员邱正军等18人提案第三条本法所称行政区划指行政区域之新设备指或调整请向所称行政区域指省指辖市县市或乡镇市区委员刘许婷等17人提案委员邱正军等18人提案第四条本法所称行政区域之调整指下列情形一划分一行政区域为二以上之行政区域二合并二以上行政区域之一部或全部为一行政区域三划分一行政区域"},{"start":9595.416,"end":9612.197,"text":"之一部并入另一行政区域四其他有关行政区域之调整第五条委员刘许婷等17人提案第五条行政区域有下列情形之一者除依地方制度法第七条之一规定办理改制者外得依本法规定办理行政区域化依配合政府层级或组织变更"},{"start":9612.857,"end":9638.4,"text":"2.因行政管辖之需要3.配合国土整体规划4.因地理环境变迁5.因政治经济社会文化或其他特殊情势变更委员邱正军等18人提案训文修正为行政区域有下列情形之一者除县市改制或与其他直辖市县市合并改制为直辖市应依地方制度法制规定办理外得依本法规定办理行政区划第三款修正为配合国土发展其余同委员刘许婷等17人提案"},{"start":9641.642,"end":9652.186,"text":"第六条,行政区划应配合国土整体规划并考量下列因素,一,人口规模及成长趋势,二,自然及人文资源之合理分配,三,山川湖泊海岸及海域之分布。"},{"start":9652.87,"end":9677.036,"text":"四 族群特性及人文历史脉络五 地方财政六 产业交通教育文化之发展七 环境保护及生态保育八 灾害防救九 都会区生活圈或生态圈之归属十 地方民意十一 选举区之划分十二 其他影响地方治理之事项委员邱正军等18人提案第四款修正为选举区之划分删除第五款之第十一款第二款一列第五款其余同委员牛许婷等17人提案"},{"start":9680.498,"end":9705.619,"text":"第七条行政区划计划由下列机关拟定后提出但直辖市山地原住民区之行政区划由直辖市主管机关或直辖市山地原住民区公所拟定后提出一涉及省直辖市或县市之行政区划者中央主管机关或相关直辖市县市主管机关二涉及乡镇市之行政区划者县主管机关或相关乡镇市公所"},{"start":9706.099,"end":9721.012,"text":"三涉及紫霞市或市之区之行政区划者紫霞市或市主管机关人民或团体别减负相关资料以书面或网际网路方式向该管机关提出行政区划之建议该管机关应于收到建议后60日内回复并公告之"},{"start":9721.693,"end":9749.407,"text":"委員邱正軍等18人提案第7條行政區劃由下列機關提出一涉及省直轄市或縣市之行政區劃由中央主管機關或相關直轄市縣市主管機關提出二涉及鄉鎮市之行政區劃由縣主管機關或相關鄉鎮市公所提出三涉及直轄市或市之區之行政區劃由直轄市或市主管機關提出但直轄市山地原住民區之行政區劃由直轄市主管機關或直轄市山地原住民區公所提出"},{"start":9750.487,"end":9769.942,"text":"第8条委员刘许婷等17任提案第8条各级主管机关乡镇市公所或直辖市山地原住民区公所应邀集应邀集学者专家民间团体地方居民代表原住民族代表及关系部落代表表示意见并以适当方式广征意见后拟定行政区化计划草案在命第9条"},{"start":9770.39,"end":9797.628,"text":"第一款至第七款第九款第十一款至第十三款规定之事项行政区划计划草案拟定后应于各该指辖市县市政府及乡镇市区公所公开展览六十日并办理地方公民民意调查及公听会行政区划计划草案拟定机关应将公开展览及公听会之日起及地点刊登政府公报或新闻指任何人或团体得于公开展览期间内已书面在名姓名或名称及地址向该机关提出意见"},{"start":9798.388,"end":9826.06,"text":"行政区划计划草案拟定机关应参佐第二项地方公民民意调查及公听会之意见提出行政区划计划送交该管处管机关审议并刊登政府公报或新闻纸有下列情形之一需办理之下是县市或乡镇市区行政区域调整者得免一第二项规定办理地方公民民意调查因行政区域界限不准有碍行政管理而地级户籍情形与行政区域界限不符"},{"start":9826.58,"end":9851.274,"text":"三配合都市计划或土地存化需调整行政区域界限四行政区域内土地面积增加或减少需调整行政区域界限委员邱正军等18人提案第一项第二项为各级主管机关乡镇市公所或是辖市山地原住民区公所提出行政区划前应研拟行政区划计划草案与相关行政区域内公告30日并办理公民民意调查及公听会"},{"start":9852.074,"end":9866.971,"text":"前項行政區劃計劃草案應在明第九條第二項第一款至第六款第九款第十一款至第十三款規定之事項第三項同委員牛許廷等17人提案第五項並著作文字修正第九條委員牛許廷等17人提案"},{"start":9867.552,"end":9887.806,"text":"第九条行政区划计划应在以下列示下一行政区划目标二行政区划范围三行政区划原因四行政区划后之行政区域名称五行政区划前后行政区域人口及面积六行政区划前后利弊得失分析七替代方案及其评估八地方公民民意调查之分析及公听会议见之参材理由"},{"start":9888.486,"end":9892.049,"text":"9.标注行政区划前后行政界限之行政区域图10."},{"start":9892.049,"end":9893.891,"text":"界限汇杆情形11."},{"start":9893.891,"end":9901.517,"text":"行政区划后相关机关购学校组织变更业务调整人员一波财产一转及自治法规处理之规划12."},{"start":9901.517,"end":9906.862,"text":"行政区划后相关机关购学校预算编制及执行等事项之规划原则13."},{"start":9906.862,"end":9916.35,"text":"其他有关行政区划之事项委员邱正军等18人提案增订第一项为各级主管机关乡镇市公所或直辖市山地原住民区公所"},{"start":9916.77,"end":9931.198,"text":"拟定行政区划计划时除有前条第三项之请行外应参佐前条第一项公民民意调查及公听会之意见第二项第八款为八公民民意调查及公听会之分析报告其余同委员有许停等17人提案"},{"start":9931.898,"end":9950.35,"text":"第十条 涉及省直辖市或县市之行政区划计划 由中央主管机关拟定者应送相关直辖市县市主管机关征询其意见 由直辖市县市主管机关拟定者应经该直辖市县市议会同意 涉及其他直辖市"},{"start":9951.29,"end":9965.39,"text":"縣市行政區域之調整並應送該指甲市縣市政府及其議會同意涉及鄉鎮市之行政區劃計劃由縣主管機關擬定者應送相關鄉鎮市公所徵詢其意見由鄉鎮市公所擬定者應"},{"start":9966.491,"end":9982.652,"text":"应经该乡镇市民代表会同意涉及其他乡镇市行政区域之调整并应送该乡镇市公所及其代表会同意涉及区之行政区划计划应送该指辖市或市议会征询其意见但涉及指辖市山地原住民区之行政区划计划"},{"start":9983.012,"end":10002.586,"text":"由直辖市主管机关拟定者应送该直辖市山地原住民区公所征询其意见由直辖市山地原住民区公所拟定者应经该直辖市山地原住民区民代表会同意涉及其他直辖市山地原住民区行政区域之调整并应送该直辖市山地原住民区公所及其代表会同意"},{"start":10003.226,"end":10024.855,"text":"受徵詢之直轄市縣市主管機關或鄉鎮市區公所應徵詢該地方議會或代表會之意見涉及原住民族地區者應並徵詢原住民族中央主管機關及關係部落之意見請向徵詢所得之意見由直轄市縣市主管機關或鄉鎮市區公所彙整並成上級主管機關"},{"start":10025.915,"end":10052.642,"text":"委员邱正军等18人提案第四项后段修正为并连同该地方议会或代表会之意见并成上级主管机关其余同委员刘许廷等17人提案第一至第四项第十一条委员刘许廷等17人提案第十一条行政区划计划其审议及核定机关如下应涉及省职辖市或县市之行政区划计划由中央主管机关审议通过后报行政院核定"},{"start":10053.642,"end":10075.028,"text":"二涉及乡镇市区执行政区划计划由直辖市县市主管机关审议通过后报中央主管机关核定前项审议及核定各应于60日内完成但请行特殊者其审议及核定期限得以延长延长以60日为限第一项核定应包括实施日期其日期应配合相关地方公职人员任期届满之日"},{"start":10075.808,"end":10098.79,"text":"委員邱振均等18人提案第一項同委員牛許琴等17人提案第一項第二項第三項為前項核定應包括實施日期其日期應配合相關地方公職人員任期屆滿之日行政區劃計劃為行政院或中央主管機關於60日內不予核定者各級機關得依公民投票法規定提出地方性公民投票不受公民投票法"},{"start":10099.23,"end":10127.16,"text":"第9条至第13条及第23条之规定行政院或中央主管机关应于投票结果公告后依其结果办理之委员扭曲亭等17人提案第12条行政区划计划经该管主管机关审议通过后行政院或中央主管机关应任应部与核定者应于60日内交付该行政区划计划区域公民附决请向附决准用公民投票法关于地方性公民投票之规定"},{"start":10128.34,"end":10146.979,"text":"委员刘雪婷等17人提案第13条各级主管机关为审议行政区区划计划应涉行政区划计划审议委员会并置委员人数如下其中学者专家社会公正人士及地方居民代表人数不得少于总数二分之一任意性别不得少于总数三分之一"},{"start":10147.339,"end":10175.052,"text":"但涉及原住民族地区者原住民族代表或关系部落代表不得少于总数三分之一应涉及省 直辖市或县市之行政区划计划者21人至27人二涉及乡镇市区之行政区划计划者15人至21人行政区划计划审议委员会会议应做成会议记录并公开之行政区划计划审议委员会之设置及审议办法由中央主管机关定之委员邱振军等18人提案第12条"},{"start":10176.773,"end":10196.006,"text":"各级主管机关为审议行政区域化计划应邀集学者、专家、社会公正人士及相关行政机关之代表以合议制方式办理,请向成员人数11人至25人,其中学者、专家及社会公正人士人数不得少于总数三分之一,成员任意性别不得少于总数三分之一。"},{"start":10197.662,"end":10221.49,"text":"委員劉許廷等17人提案第14條委員邱振均等18人提案第13條涉及省直轄市或縣市之行政區劃計劃中央主管機關應於收到行政院核定公文之次日起30日內將行政區劃計劃發布並公告其實施日期涉及鄉鎮市區之行政區劃計劃直轄市縣市主管機關應收到中央主管機關核定之"},{"start":10222.07,"end":10247.377,"text":"公文之次日起30日内将行政区划计划发布并公告其实施委员牛许婷等17人提案第15条第15条各级主管机关于行政区划计划发布后应会同相关机关办理下列事项一关于业务之移转及交接之事项二关于财产之移转及交接之事项三关于前二款之争议协调事项四其他经中央主管机关指定之事项"},{"start":10248.337,"end":10272.625,"text":"请向第二款财产其移转划分原则如下因原行政区域所属之机关购及学校改立后其经管之不动产其中公用部分产权移转行政区划后之行政区域非公用部分仍属原行政区域所有动产部分其属行政区划后之行政区域需要使用者随同移转不需使用者仍属原行政区域所有"},{"start":10273.405,"end":10302.721,"text":"二 坐落行政区划后之行政区域内之原行政区域所属房地其属公用及做公共设施使用之公用财产其产权依转行政区划后之行政区域其于人归原行政区域三 非属行政区划相关行政区域所有之财产仍依原有权属四 第一款及第二款规定于原行政区划于原行政区域废止时其属原行政区域之财产归属于行政区划后之行政区域"},{"start":10303.181,"end":10324.413,"text":"第一项移转及交接之事项应于行政区划计划实施前完成各级主管机关会同相关机关办理第一项第三款事项经协调仍无法解决时得报共同上级机关决定之行政区划后相关行政区域内业务财产之移转交接争议协调及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之"},{"start":10325.453,"end":10336.191,"text":"委员邱正军等18人提案第14条第一项第三款为三关于业务财产之移转及交接之争议协调事项其余同委员牛许婷等17人提案第15条"},{"start":10338.208,"end":10356.185,"text":"委员牛许婷等17人提案第16条委员邱振军等18人提案第15条行政区划计划实施后应由相关指辖市县市主管机关会统相关机关依该计划疏离界标测绘界限与界标位置及计算面积并汇聚图说于6个月内到中央主管机关备查"},{"start":10357.026,"end":10382.342,"text":"委员刘许晴等17人提案第17条委员邱振军等18人提案第16条行政区划计划实施后自治法规之处理原则如下因新设置行政区域有继续使用原行政区域自治法规之必要者得由新设置地方政府核定公告后继续适用其继续适用期间不得逾二年而废止自行政区域其自治法规除以钱款规定有继续适用之必要者应由新设置地方政府废止"},{"start":10382.782,"end":10404.195,"text":"三非属前二款之情形者原行政区域之自治法规应由该地方自治团体修正或废止委员林许婷等17人提案第18条委员邱振军等18人提案第17条行政区划计划实施后相关行政区域之机关及所属机关购学校预算之执行依下列方式处理依其业务位移转折原"},{"start":10405.035,"end":10431.552,"text":"未移转者原机关购集学校一原列预算继续执行二企业务经营转者承受机关购集学校人一移转前原列相关预算继续执行委员林许婷等17人提案第19条委员邱正军等18人提案第18条行政区划计划实施后相关行政区域之财政授之划分调整日期中央法律与命令之适用及公务人员移拨等事项"},{"start":10432.432,"end":10461.263,"text":"准用地方制度法第87條之三第二項及第五項至第九項規定委員扭曲亭等17人提案第20條委員邱振軍等18人提案第19條本法實行細則由中央主管機關定之委員扭曲亭等17人提案第21條委員邱振軍等18人提案第20條本法自公布日實行宣讀完畢好謝謝我們做以下決議討論事項所列之議案另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16606","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcb8f3324780817fde6e917ab2baf49428bd9360bdedb08522a242a9b603afc1105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-21T08:30:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-21T13:14:00+08:00","duration":17007,"影片長度":"04:43:27","委員發言時間":"08:30:33 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報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2148.24,"end":2169.486,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們現在先介紹到場委員黃國昌委員那接著我們介紹到場的官員 應要列席官員司法院副秘書長 王副秘書長 梅英法務部 政部長明謙法務部調查局 陳局長百利法務部廉政署 馮署長陳主席會議詢問"},{"start":2185.24,"end":2206.035,"text":"好 請說謝謝主席我一開始有個會議詢問因為今天我們要針對的是有關於共諜滲透以及我們相關安全考核機制的作為我看到今天邀請列席的官員名單當中國家安全會議"},{"start":2207.873,"end":2213.62,"text":"上面一片空白我要跟主席確認一下今天國安會有派人來嗎"},{"start":2216.457,"end":2238.518,"text":"跟我一說明喔 今天國安會沒有派人來那為什麼可以不派人來那這個部分我再說明一下那國安會也沒有跟我請假那他們確實有一個人跑到我辦公室然後拿了一個信封然後我的助理有問國安會的自稱國安會的人員說這是什麼他就說想要請假 但是我助理因為"},{"start":2239.919,"end":2267.993,"text":"問他有沒有跟召委這邊講那國安會說沒有所以我助理就拒收因為他沒有經過我的同意我要跟主席說明一下就是說目前國安會秘書長吳釗燮他的親信涉及到的共諜洩密案可以是目前在我們整個國安案件當中啊層級最高 太陽最嚴重的"},{"start":2269.438,"end":2290.89,"text":"結果今天國安會排這麼重要的報告沒有經過主席的同意竟然半個人都沒有到委員會來我要提醒一下依照國家安全會議所成立的組織法國家安全會議組織法第八條明定"},{"start":2292.191,"end":2315.523,"text":"國家安全會議及其所屬的國家安全局是受立法院監督我想主席是法律人這個法條白紙黑字寫得非常非常的明確如果今天司法法治委員會針對這麼重要的事情國安會不要說祕書長吳釗燮我不知道他是尷尬還是心虛不敢來"},{"start":2321.004,"end":2350.013,"text":"我不做預斷但半個人都沒有來那請問國家安全會議組織法第八條他們受立法院的監督是形同巨文嗎是形同巨文嗎如果當法條寫得這麼清楚那請問國家安全會議所謂受立法院的監督是要怎麼監督連主席排這麼重要的議案目前在整個共諜風暴中心的國安會"},{"start":2351.311,"end":2355.722,"text":"都可以不派人來請問本院到底要如何監督"},{"start":2357.93,"end":2382.522,"text":"當然就是說我有稍微去看了一下過往的記錄那在段宜康曾經也就國安會不到場他曾經有嚴厲的批判過所以其實民進黨在擔任召委的時期當然也有對國安會不來有意見那我再看了一下過往的記錄其實顧立雄以前在擔任秘書長的時候其實他如果沒有辦法到他是會請假的"},{"start":2383.743,"end":2410.315,"text":"那我不知道為什麼顧立雄做得到 吳釗燮都做不到那我只把事實說明清楚因為如同剛剛那個黃委員所說如果我們一切依照法律來看憲法六七條六三條他本來就有我們立法院可以成立委員會嘛而且對於一些重要的政府官員我們除了法律案預算案之外跟國家有關的重要事項本來就可以請他來說明所以這也是為什麼我們這次安排的這個會議我們希望說"},{"start":2411.676,"end":2435.954,"text":"竟然我們的政府每天在那邊喊說我們現在遭共諜滲透是史上最嚴重那甚至要恢復軍審法恢復一大堆法而且還要修改國安法兩岸人民條例竟然有這麼多這麼多這麼多的意見他認為共諜這麼嚴重結果呢今天敵人就在本能室我們的共諜就在國安會卻不處理那如果一到這次台北地檢署處理"},{"start":2438.07,"end":2463.762,"text":"國民黨的台北市黨部只認為說有黨工涉案那就要把黨部主委也要申請羈押他說因為推定黨部主委也有涉案那是不是若依照檢方的這個邏輯的話那是不是國安會底下有員工涉案那國安會秘書長也有涉案所以我想說我們不是說預斷他有涉案但我們希望他能夠來說明這就是我們這次安排這個會議的"},{"start":2465.003,"end":2486.121,"text":"主要的目的,更何況這個人待過總統府跟國安會跟外交部其實將近九年的時間,他只有做過一次的安全考核那我們也希望說了解這個是什麼,這是我今天排案的目的,跟委員報告不好意思,再用主席一點時間,因為這件事情非常重要我理解主席曾經努力過,所遭遇到的困難"},{"start":2487.304,"end":2513.963,"text":"那剛剛主席所提到的那個是在2013年10月16號的時候內政委員會由民主進步黨的段宜康召委他排了一個專案報告那個時候邀請國安會的秘書長到結果國安會沒有派人來那個時候由段宜康以及現在監察院的秘書長李俊逸還有高雄市的市長陳其邁他們一起提案什麼提案譴責國安會"},{"start":2516.883,"end":2543.175,"text":"譴責國安會說他們為什麼可以不派人來我覺得這是基本上國家法治的問題個案的部分個案的部分吳釗燮是不是有心虛是不是覺得丟臉不敢來那個是他個人的問題但我現在重視的是什麼重視的是國家安全會議組織法第八條是被廢了嗎如果沒有被廢的話"},{"start":2544.81,"end":2558.164,"text":"召委都已經發文請國安會派人來竟然可以不來沒有關係啊我就依照相同的規格相同的規格當天段宜康召委"},{"start":2559.687,"end":2582.31,"text":"一開始的時候在處理這個議案國安會沒有派人來的議案是請議事人員聯絡請他們在今天會議結束以前派人到司法法治委員會來是不是可以拜託召委提醒一下國家安全會議2013年10月16號就已經被民進黨的委員提案譴責過啦"},{"start":2584.757,"end":2603.146,"text":"結果今天他們自己執政自己可以不來這什麼道理啊是不是可以麻煩請主席才是麻煩我們的議事同仁辛苦一下撥個電話通知我們的國家安全會議官威很大官威大的不得了啊說不來就不來"},{"start":2604.721,"end":2619.04,"text":"那這個部分我們就麻煩議事人員聯繫那如果管會那邊有任何意見的話就可以跟他用2013年段奕康召委當時召集會議的時候他的論述可以直接請管會那邊參考那我們一樣請他們能夠派員過來好 謝謝"},{"start":2624.041,"end":2645.968,"text":"剛剛因為會議詢問結束剛剛為其介紹的列席代表 參議員名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄由於議事錄之前已經全部讀完畢了我們現在尚未確定 那我們現在先確定議事錄請問各位 我們補充介紹林倩琦委員請問各位就上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":2647.409,"end":2669.603,"text":"那沒有的話一律確定我們今天的議程是排定邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部長等率所屬相關單位列席就軍審判專庭執行現狀並就共諜滲透機密資料洩漏等國安事件還有中程安全查核機制提出檢討報告還有防制措施進行專題報告並備諮詢"},{"start":2671.544,"end":2680.9,"text":"好 那現在進行報告 每位發言時間三分鐘我們首先請治療院副秘書長王副秘書長報告那接著下一位我們請法務部部長鄭部長報告 謝謝"},{"start":2688.857,"end":2717.946,"text":"好主席各位委員各位現金大家早安今天貴委員會就軍事審判專庭的執行現況還有國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制檢討報告跟防制措施等案本院奉邀前來列席報告敬請指教第一點一百零二年軍事審判修法之後陳平時期的現役軍人涉及到"},{"start":2719.026,"end":2747.355,"text":"陸海空軍刑法就交由普通法院審理修法之後本院就含請法院成立專庭或是專股辦理該類案件配合112年12月施行的國家安全法19條規定本院也修正了司法事務分配辦法明定了國家國安軍事專業案件所含括的案件種類"},{"start":2749.635,"end":2757.458,"text":"到目前各個法院都有成立了國安軍事審判專庭或者是專股從102年之後"},{"start":2762.588,"end":2786.919,"text":"依這個司法事務分配辦法第12條的那個規定就是辦理專庭的庭長或法官每年都應該要受專業的專業案件相關的那個研習時數要達12個小時以上所以從102年開始法官學院和司法院都陸續辦理了相關的那個課程"},{"start":2789.081,"end":2814.741,"text":"進行賠利除了就是講授那個課程之外也有邀請國家安全局還有軍事情報局跟海巡署等單位一起進行那個案例研習那今年除了就是3月份剛舉辦的這個研習這裡頭又包括了這個有關於那個泄密案的那個研討之外那也有新增的那個課程"},{"start":2817.696,"end":2844.776,"text":"除此之外就是那個從103年到113年的相關案件受理就如這上面所在的從地院高院到最高分別有1347件78件27件那另外就是為了那個保護相關的這些審判當中的這些知名資訊還有國家安全也有相關措施譬如說法庭不公開還有拒絕跟限制對質結問還有限制月卷"},{"start":2845.296,"end":2866.918,"text":"以及相關承辦人員的那個促進管制那這個大家都有那個嚴格那個遵守齁那其餘的那個討論的議題呢因為市社執行層面還有增防作為或是立法政策那本院尊重權責機關還有貴院的意見及決定以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2868.594,"end":2872.898,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安"},{"start":2884.594,"end":2902.127,"text":"今天奉邀列席委員會就軍事審判專庭執行現況並就共的滲透機密資料、泄密等國安案事件及終成安全考機制提出檢討包括防治機制代表本部列席報告並被質詢"},{"start":2903.248,"end":2929.673,"text":"那報告的一個重點就是第一近期供碟滲透事件曾迅速都變數量上升的一個情況以及遭供碟滲透的對象及管道這一部分呢實務上增加很多的一個類型最主要第一是科技掏空境外敵對勢力藉由設立空殼公司甲外接獲在地協力者等手段惡力挖角人採取的科技人力資源及研發成果嚴重威脅我國財力競爭力經濟安全"},{"start":2931.754,"end":2935.005,"text":"第二種是借選滲透,藉由在地媒體超過網紅行銷"},{"start":2937.142,"end":2964.08,"text":"藝人表現等新型的輿論工具搭配附入旅遊等等來妨害我國民主政治與社會的一個運作第三是灰色地帶的一個洗腦灰色地帶洗腦包括名傳在我國外島禁限制海域活動切斷我國海底電纜輕裝偷渡入國境等太陽那三開類型的案件檢查機關經驗檢查宿辦向上溯源加強強制處分周圍並起訴災難"},{"start":2965.765,"end":2989.081,"text":"那國安案件的一個量呢現在是上升的 偵辦國家安全法陸資非法在台挖角侵害營業秘密乃至反滲透法案件之數量進了有升高的趨勢詳細的數字請參閱書面報告那另外滲透人員面相及滲透管道多遠 依實務案例分析結果對岸"},{"start":2990.427,"end":3007.323,"text":"策反對象以均質及關鍵技術機密的人員為主滲透管道具高度隱密及靈活性受限地域金流查詢人員掌握等限制較難要較之一般的案件搞出許多那未來的一個展望第一是落實公視"},{"start":3008.744,"end":3024.202,"text":"機密的一個管控軍工產業國家核心技術關鍵技術殖密企業的內部安全查爾機密保存技術移轉過程經落實執行機密管考強化公司機密人員的防密意識建立綿密的一個保防機制第二就是精進檢調偵辦"},{"start":3026.976,"end":3044.068,"text":"團隊的一個職能那藉由不同案件的磨合歷練累積能量並重視經驗傳承定期舉辦官研討會提升檢調團隊專業及本職學能第三是強化刑事司法的思維增審機關應景及官罰"},{"start":3046.209,"end":3072.956,"text":"犯罪對國家生存發展具危害性專注強化國安法思維法治思維將國家存緩之利害深植人心透過加入延期建立真審實務穩定而有效的法律運作的一個機制面對境外敵對勢力不斷壓迫侵擾本部所屬檢查機關將堅持信念提升專業本地職責打擊不法犯刑維護國家安全以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3074.309,"end":3082.776,"text":"好 謝謝部長 那下一位我們請電話局局長陳局長報告那接下來一位麻煩法務部馮署長報告"},{"start":3086.775,"end":3113.763,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會緊就今天的討論主題提出專題報告那首先是鑒於中共不斷擴大滲透我國的各級政府機關竊取國家的機敏資訊那援救中程安全核可的機制提出檢討報告及防治措施希望能夠透過這個查核機制來發現潛存的安全風險"},{"start":3115.003,"end":3143.41,"text":"那其次報告我國現行的安全查核機制目前依照查核對象的不同分成四類的查核機制第一類是一般的公務人員依照公務人員內用法的規定辦理一般查核另外本法授權行政院人事行政總署訂定涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法以正面表列方式辦理查核那第二類是情報機關及所屬的情報人員及情報協助人員"},{"start":3144.91,"end":3171.113,"text":"那這個是依照國家情報工作法由各情報機關的首長指定所屬的保防督察政風來辦理安全查核那第三類是國防部與所屬機關構部隊學校及所監督的行政法人及人員及其他因為業務關係從事或參與國防安全事務的人員那這一類是依照國防法由國防部所屬的保防安全單位來辦理安全查核"},{"start":3172.134,"end":3192.872,"text":"第四類是國家自動安全研究院人員依照該院的設置條例授權速發部來訂定查核辦法是由治安院及速發部來辦理安全查核檢討四項第一個是因辦理查核的人員的提列範圍擁有不足目前是採正面表列有1328個職務必須辦理"},{"start":3195.734,"end":3217.569,"text":"那個特殊查核但是這1328個職務不含立法院及各地方自治團體等具有揭秘的條件的人員而且僅限於特定職務容易導致真正有揭秘人的沒有被納管那第二個是受查核人因為他的查核的項目違反這個真實揭露義務欠缺這個處罰的規定"},{"start":3220.111,"end":3248.409,"text":"那第三個部分是查核項目沒有納入財務信用以及債務狀況那第四個缺失是任期期間的定期不定期查核的機制欠缺那在防治措施的部分第一點是全面檢視何時提列因查核的對象並以所任職務揭秘的條件來作為依據那第二是增訂受查核人違反這個查核項目真實揭露義務的處罰規定"},{"start":3250.711,"end":3279.144,"text":"那第三是查核項目建議增加這個財務債信的狀況那第四個部分是增設在任職期間定期及不定期的查核機制那第五個部分是納入內部人事陣風的安全查核來作為協力那遇到有異常的時候應該要啟動訪談的機制機先來發現安全的風險那第六是參考外國的立法例定定專法一體納管以上報告"},{"start":3289.192,"end":3307.847,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席會員會召開的軍事審判專庭之執行現況並就共諜滲透 機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件忠誠安全核可機制會議進行專題報告本署對這個議題說明如下第一本署的這個業務執掌作為"},{"start":3309.728,"end":3335.248,"text":"督導全國政風機構落實機關安全跟公務機密維護的工作我們依照政風機構強化機關安全及公務機密維護的實施方案第一我們辦理了公務機密跟安全維護的檢查資訊使用管理集合第二提列機關的廉政風險人員掌握涉密人員的出境及反台通報掌握公務員附路及反台通報收報影響"},{"start":3336.269,"end":3357.642,"text":"國家安全或利益之餘的違常案件辦理正風人員維護業務的教育訓練那本署因為也是國安防護工作的一員會與國安團隊橫向通報發揮國安的聯防那麼未來呢我們也會加強盤點一支洩密的業務及風險的人員那麼在強化具體座位上加強的"},{"start":3358.562,"end":3381.688,"text":"涉密業務內控的集合跟檢查機制然後加長教育宣導建立公務人員或機關人員的國安意識那麼廉政風險人員的風險控管在這個部分上公險人員不適合擔任機敏的職務那也會適時提醒機關的首長對於這樣的就是對於公務機敏業務上面的一個直期輪調那另外精進機關內對同仁隊異常"},{"start":3385.249,"end":3401.085,"text":"或者滲透案件的舉報機制、從優的獎勵、保護吹哨、揭弊納機落實機密文件的保密措施及檢核機制也增進政風機構掌握、附入及出境的異常跟滲透的情勢"},{"start":3402.006,"end":3431.609,"text":"那另外有關於中層安全核可機制那目前是因為由這個人事機構跟調局來做辦理那麼依照公務員任用法第四條第二項公務人員涉及到國家安全或重大利益的時候的辦理特殊查核那麼也依照涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核的辦法第二條跟第四條那這個部分就是由這個各主管機關報請總統府國家安全會議或主管"},{"start":3432.169,"end":3452.295,"text":"的一個院會會同考試院公告那為各機關任用公務人員前會含情法務部調查局做特殊的查核那有關於這個部分上如果需要那個聯任署這個協助的話我們會盡力的協助以上好 謝謝署長那請問今天提出書院報告的機關有補充報告"},{"start":3454.278,"end":3471.508,"text":"那沒有的話我先宣告一下剛剛議事人員有聯繫國安會那國安會的說法就是說依照憲政的慣例所以他們今天不會出來那當然因為我剛剛也有請議事人員要跟他們"},{"start":3472.529,"end":3493.491,"text":"特別提到說多元康委員在2013年的時候也特別有就這種案子甚至他還於譴責所以國安會得到我們這樣訊息之後還是表示不願意過來那以上就跟委員會報告那今天所以那個黃委員有沒有什麼要補充"},{"start":3498.479,"end":3526.905,"text":"我其實在剛剛上面的時候我已經把話說得非常清楚了那如果國安會全力傲慢到這樣子的程度的話之前提醒他們的先例那個是民進黨他們提的潛車案國家安全會議組織法裡面也規範的這麼明確那恐怕是我們自己這個國會要重新的去思考"},{"start":3529.011,"end":3556.253,"text":"不是像國家安全會議所講的什麼憲政慣例如果這是所謂的憲政慣例的話那國家安全會議組織法第八條是違憲還是拒穩更何況之前都有潛力被譴責過了這個恐怕是本院要去深思所謂國會的監督國家安全會議組織法第八條到底要怎麼落實的問題"},{"start":3559.025,"end":3584.574,"text":"不過我覺得也不要影響今天實質會議的進行因為如果因為國安會展現出了權力的傲慢吳釗燮事情這麼大動了結果還以為大家沒有辦法對他怎麼樣我看我們後續再來處理不要妨礙今天其他機關跟委員的巡大"},{"start":3585.259,"end":3614.501,"text":"是 跟黃委員說明我這邊當然是很希望說國安會能夠派人來所以今天我並沒有指定說國安會要派哪一個層級的人來我等於是給予國安會最大的空間所以今天的簽調表上面你並沒有看到國安會是哪一個特定的人所以我這邊已經給予國安會完全的善意讓他自己可以決定要派哪一個層級的人來因為這跟2013年又有一點不太一樣因為我們今天是國安會秘書長他的身邊的助理涉共諜案"},{"start":3615.021,"end":3632.642,"text":"這是非常非常非常嚴重的事情尤其是國安會是在總統府裡面他是要保護我們國家安全就自己的秘書長的助理涉犯共諜案這麼嚴重的事所以我才會很正式的希望今天他們能夠來說明但是他自認為他不需要受到民意的監督"},{"start":3633.263,"end":3655.976,"text":"那我想說這部分他自己要違法那還有而且違反我心中認為我剛所說的憲法的規定憲法規定非常的清楚既然他要做這樣子的違法那我想說我們自己要不要就像當初段怡康的做法要要於譴責這部分我們會再思考好謝謝那我想我們就接著趕快會議的進行好那接完待"},{"start":3661.875,"end":3679.78,"text":"今晚代表都已經報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為五分鐘並不再延長那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3688.097,"end":3712.896,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長調查局局長要協助可以一起上來部長好 局長好今年部長"},{"start":3714.011,"end":3722.922,"text":"在辦調查局局長交接的時候下令要強化偵辦國安案件我今天看了法務部的報告"},{"start":3724.781,"end":3749.778,"text":"針對國安案件你們整理出了三種嚴重的類型一個是科技掏空一個是借選滲透一個是發展組織利用軍人拍攝投降影音這個是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告這部長名字掛的報告部長很清楚來我請問一下部長現在色誘透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重"},{"start":3754.077,"end":3769.83,"text":"因為媒體說很嚴重嘛但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊我想說是活在平行時空啊還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃不敢寫色誘的類型嚴不嚴重媒體說很嚴重啊你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提啊嚴不嚴重"},{"start":3779.952,"end":3800.683,"text":"你總知道什麼類型嚴重 知道往哪邊加強偵辦啊那種被色誘的 輕功舔中的照片出來了就說是deep-seek結果給調查局去鑑定鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講丟人現眼啊丟人現眼啊不是假訊息不是身為"},{"start":3810.165,"end":3835.769,"text":"啊法務部的報告半個字都不敢提來現在啊綠色共諜啊攻佔我們民主進步黨的府院黨啊這個在法務部報告的第幾類型啊因為我看那三個類型這裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊結果法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫增設第四類型"},{"start":3839.946,"end":3848.153,"text":"部長請回答這邊我們是以整理目前較多的一個主要的這樣還不夠多一個報告這樣子還不夠多"},{"start":3851.774,"end":3875.455,"text":"這樣還覺得少就對了這個應該這個這個綠色所謂什麼這個共諜橫行那這部分我們都有查緝這個也是我們根據我們這些的一個一個情資而查到的我們一個一個來啦現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫的對不對完不完整吧這個我們寫的都說很正確就是把所有我們所謂的所謂我就問你嘛呃這個是放在第幾類型我們再來加強嘛好"},{"start":3879.398,"end":3898.825,"text":"我就是有指教嘛 放不進你那三個類型嘛 那就請你加強嘛那這個類型的話我們可以 我們這是主要的類型嘛那我們並沒有否認所有 剛剛委員就講這些的一個類型好 我們一步一步來喔現在何仁杰遭到羈押吳釗燮長期待在身邊的親信針對何仁杰洩漏國家機密這樣子的犯行"},{"start":3906.414,"end":3928.997,"text":"目前偵辦 吳釗燮該不該一起偵辦這個吳秘書長有沒有這些的一個問題我想這個是我不會干涉指導 干涉介入個案那這個檢察官如果有證據的話我想任何人只要涉及供帖我想檢察只有犯罪選員就會依法來偵辦說得很好嘛"},{"start":3929.929,"end":3952.518,"text":"那大家就接著看嘛看是不是有偵辦嘛我現在喔部長你看一下我上面寫不是要不要喔要不要交給檢察官嘛現在我在談的是規範的事情是該不該嘛之前我公開記者會講過啦在國安法裡面就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過示範"},{"start":3957.299,"end":3980.776,"text":"這個是有處罰過失犯 這個有處罰過失犯嘛這個過失的態樣要如何來加以界定應該注意 沒有注意能夠注意 卻沒有注意養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久洩漏了國家機密他有沒有注意義務他有注意義務吧他有盡到他的注意義務嗎來 請教部長"},{"start":3984.791,"end":3996.337,"text":"這個是指過失或是指過失的一個洩漏交付等等的這些的一個行為嘛而不是說旁邊有供點的話他就那些也有所以嘛現在部長在解釋法條的時候順便就把五招線給開脫了嘛是不是"},{"start":4001.533,"end":4023.052,"text":"沒什麼開脫啦就是有合乎到犯罪的過程要見當然檢查只有犯罪性檢查就會立案沒關係啊 全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛有沒有雙標嘛這個沒有雙標就依法偵辦有犯罪行為就是依法嚴判我們繼續往下看喔 何仁杰他受國家機密保護法26條列管的對象"},{"start":4025.723,"end":4039.721,"text":"這個我去調過了這個問題我問了非常久發函給外交部啊外交部是用普通件不是用密件回函所以確認了何仁杰他是國家親密保護法26條啊列管的對象下一個問題啊"},{"start":4042.693,"end":4064.68,"text":"針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作今天局長有報告嘛是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛有一般的安全查核有特殊的安全查核就何仁傑的部分他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一何仁傑他有經過一次的這個特殊查核什麼時候105年5月105年5月來看一下局長"},{"start":4070.017,"end":4098.141,"text":"只有一次來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定第五條第一項說各機關辦理特殊查核應該在他出任在任或轉任第二條鎖定職務前辦理完畢所以你講的2016年的查核指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嗎是好"},{"start":4099.266,"end":4125.902,"text":"那他到2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有在查核這個部分有還是沒有沒有在為什麼沒有按照法條的規定不是應該要在辦查核嗎那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們所以是總統府沒有通知總統府秘書長是沒有通知所以沒有辦就有關和人節的部分就是查過2016年對嘛現在喔 局長"},{"start":4126.946,"end":4139.606,"text":"我們是法律人啦所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛我們一條一條來不要混在一起講啦第一個按照法律的規定他從國安會到總統府秘書長了"},{"start":4141.3,"end":4156.588,"text":"需不需要再辦查核按照法條的規定他在載任或出任載任或是調任這個特殊查核職務這是不是調任是嘛應該要辦應該要辦嘛說清楚嘛法條說應該要辦卻沒有辦現在我問題來了法條說他轉任應該要辦但是卻沒有提報上來要辦這個責任誰要負這個應該"},{"start":4170.854,"end":4191.642,"text":"推給人事機構的人說最基層的那個人事機構的人扛責對嘛現在就是法規上應該要做現實上沒有在做所以我才請教你嘛這件事情誰要負責還是沒有人需要負責反正清拆瞎下來啦"},{"start":4194.711,"end":4207.486,"text":"誰要負責這個是人事行政總署人事行政總署要負責喔哇 你這樣講可能人事長多在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍蛤"},{"start":4210.208,"end":4238.387,"text":"總統府秘書長是沒有報查核結果是人事長要負責這樣對嗎沒有法條是人事行政總署主管啦好好好沒有關係那個可能到時候齁主席再排一下請人事長來啊因為調查局局長說他要負責啊沒有我是我要講清楚法條是人事行政總署主管但是這個要提出查核是用人機關要主管是嘛就是用人機關嘛那用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎"},{"start":4240.899,"end":4268.977,"text":"到外交部的時候他有沒有在辦查核沒有嘛是不是沒有在外交部要看他的那個來來來看一下啦剛剛你講的一千多種我都幫你整理出來了嘛外交部秘書辦理部長室秘書業務人員辦理部長室是機要業務啊這不就是這個不就是和人節的位置嗎到外交部的時候還有在辦特殊查核嗎"},{"start":4270.7,"end":4289.654,"text":"有嗎 沒有吧所以現在變成的是什麼 用人機關要負責嘛總統府秘書長要負責嘛外交部部長要負責嘛都是吳昭憲帶在身邊的人辦一次 後來都不用辦那不是吳昭憲要負責 誰要負責來 再往下看吳尚宇 有沒有辦特殊查核"},{"start":4300.322,"end":4318.047,"text":"一樣啦這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦他有沒有辦特殊查核有還是沒有他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核放在副總統辦公室耶處理機密業務耶"},{"start":4319.924,"end":4335.313,"text":"結果現在這個共諜才發現原來我們的安全查核機制啊是形同具穩啦 形同具穩啦不僅和人節 和人節只辦一次 吳尚宇是連辦都沒有辦過誰要負責 誰要負責用人機關要負責 剛剛你講的嘛 隨時來清德要負責嗎"},{"start":4344.71,"end":4370.099,"text":"他辦公室的人啊人事單位要負責又推給人事人員啊人事單位要主動喊給我們來特殊查核是不是可以請調查局回去追究今天發函給用人機關依法該查核為什麼沒有查核你如果連這件事情都不敢做今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎"},{"start":4371.34,"end":4389.749,"text":"我們已經討論出來了嘛所以我現在要你問他嘛你當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎法規上面應該要查核 現實上沒有查核如果這樣不是個問題 那什麼是問題如果這不是問題 什麼是問題"},{"start":4397.663,"end":4402.627,"text":"還是試射我們現在的總統很尷尬問都不敢問皮球踢來踢去現在不想要怎麼踢太尷尬了現在被抓起來這個連查核都沒查核蛤"},{"start":4424.076,"end":4437.809,"text":"這不是檢討制度的問題而已啊這個是依照現在的制度應該要做卻沒有做但是我們負責查核的機關法務部調查局顯然不敢追究責任"},{"start":4440.307,"end":4463.974,"text":"報委員 這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究我知道嘛 所以我要你去追究責任嘛在整個體制裡面我們是被動 我知道我們是被動所以我要你去報委員去問用人器官機關什麼時候要用人 他要調什麼人這個是機關的人事的事件我們也不會知道沒錯 你說的都對所以我要你去問嘛去問用人器官啊你當初怎麼沒有報這個人來給我們調查局查核"},{"start":4466.499,"end":4490.3,"text":"我想這個不是我們調查局的這個不是你們調查局的喔應該要報給你們 卻沒有報給你們還不是調查局的職責 那是誰的職責這個才是最大的問題嘛對嘛 但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任嘛事情不就是這樣嗎 超級清楚的沒有人敢去追究啊"},{"start":4496.728,"end":4518.016,"text":"來 請教一下部長我們洩密的對象啊洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國啊刑責上啊 法定刑應不應該區別對待 贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責 贊不贊成這是一個立法政策的問題是 所以你贊不贊成這個要廣大意見要廣大意見嘛當初啊 邱泰山反對"},{"start":4523.22,"end":4551.311,"text":"他很明確啊 邱太三反對啊那奇怪了我們的總統不是把中國講成制定境外敵對勢力洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰啊結果現在法務部要強化國安 要防止洩密連洩密給中國法定刑要提高這件事情都不敢講怕尷尬喔 怕尷尬是不是因為之前民進黨政府反對過啊"},{"start":4554.679,"end":4578.517,"text":"之前邱太三反對過啊我第一次當立委的時候為了這個事情跟邱太三辯論了幾次他反對啊到院會表決的時候民進黨一再阻擋不處理拖到2029年拖到2019年不得不處理了最後是什麼最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺"},{"start":4582.95,"end":4596.088,"text":"把提高對中國泄密的處罰封殺難怪你今天只能夠軟軟的說要廣納社會意見法務部連這個基本態度都不敢表達被封殺了啦"},{"start":4597.52,"end":4623.118,"text":"你可以請你的幕僚把整個立法的歷程整理給你看啦在立法院公報裡面通通都有啦我希望喔我也利用這個機會公開呼籲我們國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案了希望著點神意啊到時候希望法務部啊能夠勇敢的支持 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":4636.57,"end":4653.446,"text":"謝謝主席 府院同仁大家好我現在這邊請司法院的副秘書長和法務部部長還有國防部大概就兩位處長 對不起 國防部今天的代表國防部代表"},{"start":4663.001,"end":4684.998,"text":"主席 大家好我們今天就是因為我們來共同面對這個共諜滲透的一個狀況然後來探討我們軍事審判跟國安體系的一個落差所以今天這個軍事審判制度跟國安執法的這個缺口我想希望透過今天大家的探討然後再做一個系統性的一個處理跟改革"},{"start":4686.319,"end":4713.738,"text":"剛才在報告裡面 鳳姨書長也談到了2013年修法之後基本上我們的軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時的法院的一個管轄在暫時才會回復軍法系統但是為了配合過渡跟備戰的需要其實在現在的整個軍事審判法的第五條 第二項規定地方法院也設如您所講的專庭跟專股來負責國防安全跟軍機有關的特殊案件"},{"start":4714.378,"end":4733.099,"text":"那現在這個制度大概實行了多少年了?軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何呢?兩位從那個103年1月13號開始到現在11年嗎?11年多對,如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢?"},{"start":4735.413,"end":4752.65,"text":"運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢"},{"start":4754.704,"end":4778.187,"text":"目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎"},{"start":4779.268,"end":4797.227,"text":"當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛"},{"start":4798.769,"end":4821.085,"text":"所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分"},{"start":4825.868,"end":4840.543,"text":"然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討"},{"start":4842.15,"end":4869.592,"text":"那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情"},{"start":4871.55,"end":4896.489,"text":"那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全責監修國安部"},{"start":4896.949,"end":4915.785,"text":"的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判這是軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國安部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關國防部的代表要不要來回應一下"},{"start":4919.912,"end":4943.738,"text":"委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判"},{"start":4945.658,"end":4966.381,"text":"那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了"},{"start":4967.442,"end":4979.916,"text":"應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎報委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請"},{"start":4981.778,"end":5011.121,"text":"司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事而不是由司法官那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判"},{"start":5011.781,"end":5025.486,"text":"包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定"},{"start":5026.562,"end":5054.075,"text":"那是用對實體法部分確實是有這樣子的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判事務工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛對吧"},{"start":5055.296,"end":5069.052,"text":"你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是 謝謝委員"},{"start":5076.428,"end":5083.277,"text":"好 謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起"},{"start":5087.83,"end":5107.744,"text":"好 那現在在我們面對整個涉及軍機或戰備演訓的這個案件時那目前建構了具機密資訊保護機制的一個審判環境相關物證跟資料保全如何兼顧司法程序與國安維護那請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢"},{"start":5112.542,"end":5114.903,"text":"那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧"},{"start":5126.407,"end":5152.807,"text":"跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對予以提供副秘書長你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢真的是這樣嗎"},{"start":5153.667,"end":5160.934,"text":"向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦"},{"start":5181.702,"end":5199.982,"text":"其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條"},{"start":5202.284,"end":5228.331,"text":"已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道"},{"start":5229.831,"end":5250.381,"text":"前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的"},{"start":5252.082,"end":5269.09,"text":"那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的狀態嗎部長"},{"start":5279.04,"end":5298.152,"text":"這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有 這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬 那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分"},{"start":5299.133,"end":5311.868,"text":"他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官"},{"start":5318.236,"end":5332.726,"text":"我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押"},{"start":5333.687,"end":5352.714,"text":"所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道你為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的"},{"start":5355.835,"end":5384.736,"text":"最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的舉證認定與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條"},{"start":5385.236,"end":5404.995,"text":"但是低適用 那整個處理出來的狀態 其實讓人民對於法治教育 其實產生了很多信心的危機好 那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論 好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝 那下一位我們請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":5411.536,"end":5417.394,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請司法院法務部還有警政署司法院法務部警政署"},{"start":5429.312,"end":5445.717,"text":"好 那我想要先看一下週末有一個新聞但是可能你們都不一定有注意到就是關於竹北涉嫌虐童的教練之前三百萬交保但是呢 出境未到未到庭法院發布通緝令我不知道你們有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":5446.957,"end":5470.914,"text":"好有看到這個新聞那我們來看一下這件事情事實上造成非常多家長群組的恐慌大家都在問關於虐童的事件好不容易好像台灣的行政機關有了比較多積極的作為可是到底這件事情是哪裡破了洞怎麼會讓這個虐童案甚至這個人還有相關金融犯罪的事情正在審判當中但是我們就讓他出境了我們就讓他逃跑了我們來看一下事實上這個案件"},{"start":5473.536,"end":5502.328,"text":"案子是在去年的10月那我非常感谢相关的检察官在2月的部分就已经起诉了我认为非常的有效率虽然当时检察官有申请羁押可是法官当下没有裁准严押那我们在新闻里面看到其实当时这个法官如果新闻是可信当时这个法官他对于嫌犯的做法并不认同甚至法官有提到这个嫌犯有试图灭证的做法"},{"start":5502.888,"end":5521.673,"text":"所以最後呢裁定300萬交保並且限制居住但是沒有限制出境我要再強調一次沒有限制出境所以他後來就逃跑了到3月的時候要開庭看不到人發現他逃跑了到了4月法院才公佈要沒入300萬保證金發布通緝還請領務局註銷他的護照"},{"start":5527.714,"end":5546.303,"text":"我想要问在这件事情上我们到底出了什么事情一个一个来我想先问法务部关于这个案件当时检察官有没有看告对于法官所做出的没有裁准严压然后呢也没有限制出境当时这个做法检察官有没有提出看告"},{"start":5548.806,"end":5573.119,"text":"在2月5日那個起訴醫審法院的時候那個法院那是沒有通知檢察官到庭及表達意見所以檢察官是沒有到庭陳述意見的機會那所以法官這直接就裁定300萬的一個交保跟限制秩序他每天到派出所報到這個法院這個也沒有裁定到目前為止都沒有送有裁定"},{"start":5573.579,"end":5594.515,"text":"送到檢察官 所以檢到目前都完全沒有辦法去提出抗告了解了 好 那就您的立場喔就您的立場 你覺得這個案子在這樣的處理過程上有沒有瑕疵這個以我們檢方來講 我們是沒有瑕疵的對好 那院方我就要請那個來回答好 那我們來聽一下院方你們的說法"},{"start":5598.864,"end":5613.322,"text":"這個程序部分我們可能還要再跟那個新竹地院再查明是不是這個情況查明是不是這個情況的意思是要查明什麼情況程序上就是裁定送達的問題是裁定送達的問題嗎"},{"start":5619.522,"end":5631.587,"text":"我想要請你們多說一點為什麼會發生這個事情那當時法官他們的態度到底是什麼他明明自己都說了他認為他有滅證的嫌疑而且他也不認同嫌犯的做法但是為什麼還是做出了這個裁決"},{"start":5634.801,"end":5649.847,"text":"關於那個法官就是說他怎麼決定就是要不要羈押要不要繼續延押或者是用什麼那個替代的那個處分還沒有做限制出境的處分喔這個是那個法官他們個別就是個案的那個裁量"},{"start":5650.327,"end":5663.4,"text":"那邊我們行政就是司法行政也不變智慧就是說好這個我們當然尊重我之前您說出司法行政我們不方便智慧但是我認為這件事情看起來其實是有問題的對不對而且現在這個人呢已經氣飽潛逃"},{"start":5665.402,"end":5679.943,"text":"那我們不知道後續虐童案的進度可是我認為這件事情其實是讓非常多家長都覺得非常不滿那個焦慮不是來自於我的小孩可能會再送到這個人手上而是我們整個司法系統為什麼對於這樣的虐童案如此的輕忽我覺得是這個態度的問題"},{"start":5681.705,"end":5702.423,"text":"我覺得這個部分一定要注意不然我覺得我們做了再多關於兒少修法保護的努力但是我覺得我們家長不會有感我們的孩子也不會有感那甚至有更多的兒少代表他們也會對這件事情表達不滿到底要怎麼樣要什麼樣的強度才能讓這些不管是司法系統或者是檢調系統的人認為這件事情是重要的而且是非常非常嚴肅的"},{"start":5704.057,"end":5723.251,"text":"謝謝委員好 那我想要問一下警政署我們現在有辦法掌握他的行蹤嗎我個人認為是有困難啦因為他要到派手來做報到但是他已經棄保潛逃出境他沒有來報到那我們趕快通報DM才知道他潛逃"},{"start":5724.181,"end":5747.516,"text":"就是按照正常程序當然是這樣嘛我也知道我會得到這樣的回答但是我還是要請你們說清楚因為現在有非常多公民或是家長都會看所有立法院的直播我覺得相關的責任分工一定要搞清楚到底哪裡出了差錯所以我想不管是司法院這邊或者是警政署這邊或者是法務部這邊我覺得我們應該要共同來討論這件事情真的真的非常的嚴肅再來我要問"},{"start":5750.058,"end":5767.678,"text":"他没有被限制出境可是我要再次提醒这个人他不是只有虐童他还有涉犯金融犯罪不罚所得超过上千万如果我们来看一下什么样的情况下检察官或者是法官可以限制他限制出境出海"},{"start":5768.118,"end":5797.001,"text":"如果我們回到法規範來看我的投影片有寫得很清楚我們認為他有相當的理由或者是有逃亡之餘或者是我們認為有相當的理由認為他有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或者是勾串共犯或證人之餘者我們應該要限制出境這就是為什麼我剛剛一直請教院方為什麼法官會做出這樣的裁定我們覺得真的要給人民一個交代要給家長一個交代要給在乎兒少權利的人一個交代可不可以請院方再就這個部分回應一下"},{"start":5801.389,"end":5810.048,"text":"目前起訴到法院就是虐童這個部分那這個涉及金融這個部分他現在還在那個起訴還在偵查中"},{"start":5811.351,"end":5836.121,"text":"我當然知道還在偵查中但我要再次強調我們真的認為如果你就一般老百姓來看這個法規範大家會認為他其實就已經當時可以限制出境了可能就不會有今天這個獨家新聞跑出來然後害你們還要站在這邊被我質詢這個問題而且我要再次強調當時這個人他之所以要被羈押是因為就是檢察官對他提起所有的這些事情是因為他虐童"},{"start":5836.801,"end":5859.6,"text":"那雖然小孩現在還活著好像是看起來罪不自死可是我要說這件事情其實當時引起非常非常多的討論而且虐童案一而再再而再的發生我們來看一下社會上到底有多關注虐童案我們在公共政策倡議平台上近五年如果我們用虐童作為關鍵字光是成案的就超過九件"},{"start":5860.12,"end":5875.44,"text":"什麼意思呢我不知道各位長官你們知不知道這個公共政策平台要呈案有多麼的困難基本上他比現在在街頭罷免連署志工在做事情還要困難他用手機跟email雙認證他才可以完成這個簽署連署後面後續的連署"},{"start":5877.202,"end":5897.785,"text":"所以呢有這麼多人在關心兒虐案這件事情我覺得整個社會語情的方向你們一定要搞清楚而不是認為它只是單一虐童個案或者是只是再一個再一個再一個並不是這樣的在社會大眾的眼裡看起來是好像整個系統對於像這樣的人是包容的是縱放的或者是我們好像不是那麼積極"},{"start":5898.846,"end":5917.972,"text":"所以我今天花這麼多時間我之所以在司法法治委員會一再問兒少這件事情就是他可能在你們過去的政策視野當中你們是很容易忽略的你們覺得就只是另外一個個案就只是另外一個個案但我要告訴你們真的不是這樣光是公共政策平台而虐兒的部分成案了有九案更不要講如果我把"},{"start":5919.832,"end":5940.787,"text":"額虐這兩個字拿掉 我用更廣泛的耳哨案件來定義那就更多人在公共政策倡議平台上不斷想要告訴我們行政機關我們有多麼在意這件事情那這正巧是你們可以做的事情可以嗎好 那我想相關的檢討報告不管是法務部 司法院 警政署可不可以在一個月內提交相關檢討報告"},{"start":5942.458,"end":5952.164,"text":"可以嗎 那警政署也可以嗎好 謝謝你們我覺得共同關心這件事情真的非常重要好 謝謝 請回那接下來我要請調查局我們回到今天的主題"},{"start":5954.5,"end":5981.745,"text":"好 那調查局在移動的過程當中我就先說在你們的調查報告裡面我看到我非常給予肯定你們關於安全查核的對象跟法源你們做出了整理看起來其實也是給立法院相關的建議你們很重要的提到立法院還有地方自治團體等其他政府機關內具有接觸 知悉 持有 存取或使用機敏資料的公務人員目前都不是查核對象 對不對是"},{"start":5982.665,"end":6004.735,"text":"好那關於這件事情我們其實也提了相關的修法建議對不對我來看一下而且你們提到該精進的事項我覺得也講得很具體一個是救法員的部分也就是我現在頭影片寫的一跟二關於還有關於查核項目沒有列入財務信用我覺得這件事情也很重要確實在很多共點案的線索裡面我們看到當事人其實是有財務困難有財務破口的需求"},{"start":6007.856,"end":6031.646,"text":"再來第四個 任職於前查核欠缺任職期間定期跟不定期的查核也就是有些人可能在入職前做了查核後續就沒有再做查核謝謝你們提出的建議喔那你們的 針對你們這些建議你們甚至提了精進的內容第六點 我的投影片上用紅色來表示我想問一下你們這個做法應該是參考美國跟德國的做法 對嗎是"},{"start":6032.426,"end":6058.525,"text":"好那你們要不要多說一下為什麼你們認為這個做法在台灣真的可行嗎因為學者專家的報告是一回事但是落實在現場到底可不可行我覺得這個才是最重要的是我想我們就是盡量去參考外國比較先進的這些立法例那當然還要經過跨部會的一些協商還有這個貴院的支持"},{"start":6059.646,"end":6076.232,"text":"聽起來其實還需要很多討論但是我今天要給予調查局的報告給予高度的肯定你們找出現行的問題然後也提出具體的建議做法那我時間有限我想我就簡單的拜託調查局針對相關檢討事項跟規劃有沒有機會在一個月內相關提出相關的會議結論"},{"start":6078.195,"end":6094.392,"text":"我們可以提出我們的精進的一個建議比較詳細的做法但是跨部會的行政的協商我想因為特查辦法是由行政院人事行政總處他是主管的機關我想這個我們要尊重那個人總"},{"start":6094.872,"end":6119.965,"text":"好 沒關係但是就你們自己更內部更清楚的資料可以先給我們自己跨部會的部分也許你們可以先簡單提出一個想像跟規劃我們再來看看有沒有機會促成跨部會的討論第二個 相關的立法程序有沒有機會在兩個月內給我們立法院相關立法建議給司法委員會的所有委員參考是 可以可以喔 好 謝謝還有謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝那我們下一位請審法會委員發言"},{"start":6134.779,"end":6146.712,"text":"主席我先請司法院副秘書長麻煩司法院副秘書長另外是不是也請國防部國防部今天有兩位代表我們請法律事務司的處長"},{"start":6154.616,"end":6169.083,"text":"我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股執行的現況這個部分目前我們是依照國安法第19條我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股未來但是在這個"},{"start":6176.677,"end":6191.027,"text":"這個今年我們總統有宣示那我們這個部長也有表示我們未來將會要恢復這個軍事審判制度恢復軍事審判制度之後這個未來這個有關國安跟軍事的審判專庭的部分應該會有"},{"start":6192.288,"end":6211.93,"text":"會有所改變,制度會有所改變所以我大概這是先請國防部來說明一下目前有關這個軍事這個我們部長也提到說強調說要確保未來這個軍法官的獨立性我目前的規劃跟這個進度怎麼樣我們這個有關於這個這個軍法官的未來這個來源跟他現在狀況的規劃"},{"start":6213.251,"end":6239.545,"text":"好 委員好 我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要的就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一個法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對 這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院"},{"start":6240.686,"end":6254.825,"text":"來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在研議目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟也會有嗎目前有嗎"},{"start":6255.666,"end":6276.047,"text":"有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為我們開這個因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有"},{"start":6276.967,"end":6282.113,"text":"不是這樣子我們改時間我認為說談這麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問"},{"start":6299.912,"end":6328.169,"text":"那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股"},{"start":6329.366,"end":6347.583,"text":"那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法"},{"start":6349.384,"end":6375.924,"text":"這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的"},{"start":6378.052,"end":6400.862,"text":"的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個"},{"start":6406.195,"end":6424.592,"text":"跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個"},{"start":6426.643,"end":6448.533,"text":"如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言他要來整理原住民軍人身份"},{"start":6450.388,"end":6475.716,"text":"原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神"},{"start":6477.256,"end":6486.681,"text":"可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生那這個就是一種選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的我這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊"},{"start":6503.77,"end":6522.683,"text":"這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大黃委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有"},{"start":6526.325,"end":6552.25,"text":"共諜案是共諜案它即使不是共諜案但是它原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了競合就是說它有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說它是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能它跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分它就因為它性侵它的軍人角色所以它競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理"},{"start":6553.922,"end":6562.861,"text":"原住民也是一樣,他有軍人又有原住民身份,你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件,是由國安軍事專庭來審理"},{"start":6564.305,"end":6577.899,"text":"我們現在是有兩類,一類是軍事審判,還有一個是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道,所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討,這是第一個問題我們目前國安"},{"start":6587.884,"end":6610.529,"text":"這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就是每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天"},{"start":6615.631,"end":6623.026,"text":"一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎"},{"start":6627.162,"end":6646.808,"text":"我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12個小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為"},{"start":6650.229,"end":6670.466,"text":"事實上目前這些案件有很多案件這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回覆的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要"},{"start":6675.698,"end":6701.216,"text":"檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告 部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台"},{"start":6701.701,"end":6725.567,"text":"他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署以及各地檢署都以國防部對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內"},{"start":6726.267,"end":6748.913,"text":"這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級"},{"start":6750.714,"end":6769.611,"text":"那舊個案他還沒有給你,必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子這些橫向的聯繫平台,我認為法務部應該要來建議起來那這個時間的關係,再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個"},{"start":6770.711,"end":6799.649,"text":"比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是"},{"start":6800.549,"end":6820.77,"text":"沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲辦也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對"},{"start":6823.066,"end":6837.453,"text":"那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不已公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於"},{"start":6839.455,"end":6866.397,"text":"這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能"},{"start":6867.557,"end":6887.635,"text":"都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題啦齁那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考啦齁他有一些提示"},{"start":6889.036,"end":6916.992,"text":"他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他就完全就不能公開這是連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下"},{"start":6917.623,"end":6944.976,"text":"是 那我們再研議好不好 你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這個部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好 以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":6966.247,"end":6992.419,"text":"今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文"},{"start":6998.803,"end":7015.347,"text":"跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們"},{"start":7025.086,"end":7042.184,"text":"我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院"},{"start":7043.137,"end":7060.907,"text":"被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議國安會秘書長來立法院被選對"},{"start":7071.229,"end":7085.468,"text":"那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦"},{"start":7092.305,"end":7112.748,"text":"這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員 讓他們有時間去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候 他是都會請假啦就沒有來啊 就請假他會請假 那現在是我這邊跟那個醫事人員這邊都沒有收到請假"},{"start":7114.297,"end":7135.22,"text":"好所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩醫事人尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過這第一個好那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長謝謝麻煩局長部長"},{"start":7142.751,"end":7165.761,"text":"我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到關於國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數幾十件包括國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦"},{"start":7172.803,"end":7188.631,"text":"這個都有好那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有這個都有也都有好OK好"},{"start":7189.434,"end":7209.276,"text":"那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核"},{"start":7210.404,"end":7236.314,"text":"那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、載任、調任那如果說啊,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查"},{"start":7237.485,"end":7259.951,"text":"因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查那這一個部長你認為,譬如說部長你的司機你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的,你想查"},{"start":7260.816,"end":7289.08,"text":"你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以考慮可以討論討論的可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是"},{"start":7289.58,"end":7310.135,"text":"那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關的資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊 有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡"},{"start":7314.434,"end":7336.071,"text":"那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個職務是必須要被查可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜"},{"start":7339.033,"end":7361.742,"text":"南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員"},{"start":7366.694,"end":7379.02,"text":"假設這個部長就住在這個官社我沒有說法國部長 因為我不知道住哪裡假設某部長他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊這個部長每天回來的時間清潔人員 人員門口他就每天記錄這個"},{"start":7389.383,"end":7395.766,"text":"我就簡單舉這種例子 社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去 怎麼有人寄 都一人付一支寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭 這個該不該被討論啊"},{"start":7403.524,"end":7431.492,"text":"我覺得這個是可以討論啦 但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候 社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太閒 你們要說什麼 大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說 這一個一來一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點 好不好 加速這一個討論好 那這一個我只能講說這個相關的比如說境外敵對勢力可能"},{"start":7432.392,"end":7456.053,"text":"接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員國會助理是其中一種對吧 國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證 他就進來了那有些是相關的職員 有些都不是公務員"},{"start":7457.398,"end":7483.169,"text":"像這一條線 我舉例子比如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有個信封然後裡面有一個加密的信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄 相關的文件現在問題來了這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了"},{"start":7486.789,"end":7508.84,"text":"那這當然對立委來說 我們就把他打開來看看完之後啊 看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把他睡掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦 我看完之後我就把他睡掉了 這是一種第二種 我看完之後我就跟助理講說 拿去睡掉那我的助理就看到了嘛"},{"start":7512.503,"end":7535.823,"text":"第三種 我也沒有講 我就整包 都拿去睡覺 都拿去回收這文就出去了 國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範我覺得 像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡 助理說助理你幫我拿去睡 助理只要喵一下"},{"start":7536.837,"end":7544.294,"text":"他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦 可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範"},{"start":7546.188,"end":7565.336,"text":"這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把他納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法"},{"start":7568.537,"end":7595.774,"text":"來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪"},{"start":7596.374,"end":7621.637,"text":"阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法"},{"start":7622.878,"end":7645.655,"text":"我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那你們的報告裡頭有提到財產"},{"start":7648.53,"end":7669.899,"text":"我們公務員有這個財產財產不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報"},{"start":7671.089,"end":7693.372,"text":"那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對是是是那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關他說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定"},{"start":7695.173,"end":7715.851,"text":"所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會 我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況 那個可能就進入司法調查 不是特殊查"},{"start":7716.414,"end":7723.905,"text":"OK 好 我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署 偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策"},{"start":7731.041,"end":7755.429,"text":"引導 暗示 明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發"},{"start":7756.189,"end":7781.854,"text":"有告發或者中選會 現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案 來偵辦的這個沒有 不是 我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是 我們就是採客觀公正 物完物中的一個辦案的一個態度齁這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊 手法啦 手法啦 這一些齁這個都是檢察官 負責的這個檢察官"},{"start":7783.574,"end":7804.284,"text":"他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個阿你外部跟人家檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你外部說這個有的沒的還是說"},{"start":7806.485,"end":7820.936,"text":"你就是檢察官你的手法你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案你掌握的訊息怎麼樣怎麼樣你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了這個是委員說的就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":7824.425,"end":7853.513,"text":"謝謝王委員 那在這邊跟委員會還有王委員報告一下王委員請問我們詢問的事項就是過往到底國安會有沒有派員來我們這邊確實有查到 剛剛醫事人員有查到在第九屆第一會期第七次全體委員會議的時候當時的召委是段宜康召委確實也不是法律案或預算案國安會也有派員到場 以上"},{"start":7857.148,"end":7858.393,"text":"當時的主題我看一下"},{"start":7863.855,"end":7887.624,"text":"就國家資安體系及國家資通安全科技中心籌備情形進行專題報告並被質詢這是當時的那個記錄我再重申一次是立法院第九屆第一會期司法及法治委員會第七次全體委員會會議當時的召委是段宜康召委"},{"start":7888.164,"end":7902.579,"text":"那就以上我剛說明的那個題目他們有進行專題報告跟被質詢當時的國安會確實有派員到場那我們今天的會議其實我們對國安會我們也沒有指定要哪一位來"},{"start":7904.25,"end":7918.632,"text":"他們當時是派諮詢委員到場我們今天也是沒有指定要任何人所以我們今天的國安會的簽到欄是空白的各位可以去看我們也是依循過往的做法去做以上"},{"start":7920.662,"end":7947.199,"text":"請假就對了對我在這邊跟那個王委員報告一下確實完全沒有來請假那國安會這一次是沒有那剛剛在各位委員還沒有到場的時候那我們有請議事人員有詢問國安會那國安會也是表示說他們依據憲政的制度他們不願意到場剛剛議事人員跟我回報如此以上是就剛王一川委員的詢問加以說明好那我們接下來就請"},{"start":7948.44,"end":7967.103,"text":"我們先做一個會議程序的宣告第一個就是我們待會在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後我們休息五分鐘這是第一件事第二件事就是現在有委員提出臨時提案"},{"start":7967.964,"end":7978.113,"text":"那依據本會的網歷時間是在11點左右處理但是時間有點太近了所以我預告那個宣告的時間呢我們是在"},{"start":7979.788,"end":8000.72,"text":"我們先宣告處理時間是在本日的11點40分處理委員所提出來的臨時提案那屆時如果有委員正在詢答我們就是在該委員詢答完畢之後就馬上進行處理那以上好那接下來我們請王宏威委員進行詢答謝謝"},{"start":8014.349,"end":8034.427,"text":"好 先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到"},{"start":8034.967,"end":8050.914,"text":"所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會"},{"start":8052.154,"end":8057.336,"text":"那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責"},{"start":8080.524,"end":8085.308,"text":"王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會訪問一下所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟"},{"start":8109.628,"end":8111.749,"text":"我們的調查局局長好 部長 局長在上週 其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場 吳思瑤委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部"},{"start":8137.097,"end":8149.601,"text":"那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來"},{"start":8153.542,"end":8179.86,"text":"因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公"},{"start":8181.341,"end":8204.974,"text":"結果在當天搜索的時候 竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長 他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室 而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機 滑了三四個小時"},{"start":8206.451,"end":8233.269,"text":"我想請問如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下跟中山大同黨部何干為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長"},{"start":8237.493,"end":8249.331,"text":"請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊然後我也是被罷免的對象所以"},{"start":8250.851,"end":8270.504,"text":"我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼"},{"start":8275.902,"end":8296.068,"text":"中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩奕嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長 局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎 依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":8302.463,"end":8327.329,"text":"搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分這個法官所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這運營共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎"},{"start":8328.669,"end":8333.051,"text":"可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔"},{"start":8339.573,"end":8364.928,"text":"這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要憑我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎"},{"start":8367.854,"end":8371.419,"text":"直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是"},{"start":8382.984,"end":8407.712,"text":"依法來處理的 還叫依法處理可以依法到這種地步 依法來打激戰敵嗎而且跟委員報告 我對各案的說索票 等於說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機 讓他看手機的內容嗎可不可以 可不可以 來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛 那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部 沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎 那是一個同意處所 它是以處所嘛"},{"start":8413.188,"end":8438.69,"text":"可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以這個搜索票一搜索要搜仔搜索要怎麼進來搜索票那這有沒有濫權問題有沒有"},{"start":8440.572,"end":8467.251,"text":"既然是法官的核准搜索票 可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊 可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以 按照你這樣講可以嗎"},{"start":8468.457,"end":8476.525,"text":"這個是個案我不表示意見 那我想 我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎 好 再來看好 再來看 我跟你講 你們這一陣子無法無天來 在高雄 高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站 要求把現場工作人員帶走"},{"start":8491.579,"end":8511.282,"text":"然後要求 就說 你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走請問一下 這個是合法的 執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票 去連署站 要求把人帶走 可以嗎"},{"start":8514.139,"end":8532.267,"text":"這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太"},{"start":8532.967,"end":8560.413,"text":"有搜索票嗎重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有"},{"start":8562.954,"end":8570.318,"text":"還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢 跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎 跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來"},{"start":8583.905,"end":8597.411,"text":"這不叫司法干預 什麼叫做司法干預再來 我們在網路上也流傳影片然後這個霸雙節的 在高雄霸來來把這個影片放一下"},{"start":8599.372,"end":8622.331,"text":"政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好 你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下"},{"start":8626.361,"end":8641.368,"text":"來罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬 你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦"},{"start":8643.083,"end":8662.334,"text":"我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪"},{"start":8670.799,"end":8680.822,"text":"五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛那一罪一罰啦那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長想成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來"},{"start":8691.365,"end":8714.601,"text":"中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好 你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好 你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦"},{"start":8717.043,"end":8733.31,"text":"按鈴 按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎"},{"start":8737.092,"end":8741.334,"text":"這個是一個個案執行的一個 又來個案了齁 對啊 又來個案 每個都是個案了 這個合法的嘛 這個合法的嘛 部長 這個是 這個是 頭髮你以前怎麼不辦啊頭髮你以前有辦嗎 你還好意思在這邊 你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦 來 再來看再來看 我跟你講啊 你們哪選擇性辦的案 在這邊"},{"start":8760.041,"end":8761.702,"text":"韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了"},{"start":8780.936,"end":8782.317,"text":"有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談"},{"start":8798.972,"end":8804.136,"text":"有沒有搜索 有沒有生壓 有沒有嘛通通是按照委託文書辦嘛還有個資嘛 涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣 當然不一樣 報名韓國瑜不用搜索 不用約談 不用生壓 不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人 哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴 哪一個被生壓來 你告訴我"},{"start":8826.654,"end":8853.397,"text":"這個個案齁 我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了 沒有辦嘛 而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的 而且要起訴後來呢 這個檢察長不願意辦 而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後 才不起訴這也是個案喔 按照部長的說法也是個案喔"},{"start":8854.258,"end":8860.702,"text":"不會辦 不能辦 不敢辦好 你以為只有這一個嗎 再來再來怎麼會不同呢 一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同 部長 你在這邊凹吧 說謊吧哪有什麼不同 他是不是用偽造文書來辦 是不是"},{"start":8877.748,"end":8888.454,"text":"這是兩個不同的案件有怎麼樣 當然一個罷免韓國瑜一個罷免吳思堯啊 不一樣啊 真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊 給他辦到死啊好 再來連署 除了罷免之外總統 副總統選舉 如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍 也需要連署好 5271名死人"},{"start":8906.021,"end":8917.052,"text":"連署 這個呢 這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個 你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下 5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎"},{"start":8929.678,"end":8954.193,"text":"2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就真辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有"},{"start":8959.408,"end":8965.474,"text":"我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊 有沒有"},{"start":8966.713,"end":8972.516,"text":"每個個案又是不一樣 為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣 半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結 雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發"},{"start":8990.245,"end":9008.744,"text":"但是呢 沒有 第一個 沒有登門去按門鈴 沒有去約談 沒有去搜索 沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以妳的最後的結論是什麼 我告訴大家 那個就叫做選擇性辦案"},{"start":9010.626,"end":9026.531,"text":"那個就叫做雙標辦案那個就叫做辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做依照上意來辦案不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦怎麼沒有這回事 這證據嘛這個證據就是證據來辦案啊那部長你為什麼 你說我當時沒有當部長當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶為什麼你一個都沒有約談"},{"start":9034.853,"end":9055.538,"text":"蛤 你也不敢批評啊 對不對 OK啊那個個案呢 所以我直接說你們現在 所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案 為什麼同樣的個案我問你 大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦 是不是"},{"start":9057.21,"end":9082.744,"text":"他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題"},{"start":9084.485,"end":9110.334,"text":"現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正部長"},{"start":9111.374,"end":9126.781,"text":"局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦"},{"start":9128.533,"end":9150.64,"text":"這不叫做 這個 我真的想請問 民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機 他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛"},{"start":9151.923,"end":9162.834,"text":"他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛 對付我王宏威嗎"},{"start":9164.4,"end":9182.795,"text":"對不對 我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投 在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係"},{"start":9184.252,"end":9207.36,"text":"你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來 局長你告訴我為什麼 憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走"},{"start":9214.286,"end":9220.695,"text":"因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了 又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情"},{"start":9227.85,"end":9235.057,"text":"你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這怎麼樣依法偵辦 依什麼法 依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案 辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係"},{"start":9247.27,"end":9253.234,"text":"什麼叫依法偵辦來 部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員 中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法"},{"start":9275.376,"end":9293.188,"text":"以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊"},{"start":9305.233,"end":9311.917,"text":"在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好 謝謝那我們下一位請沈博洋委員發言"},{"start":9335.957,"end":9341.723,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長 局長委員好"},{"start":9349.83,"end":9376.44,"text":"好 部長好 局長好那這個我這個會期還沒有過來這邊我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案我覺得是說這個不太妥當但是我還是要釐清一下就是說因為我是要問忠誠義務的事情剛剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了那第一個就是說剛剛有提到這一個韓國瑜那時候有1300多件我還是要講一下這1300多件是不合格數他死亡是"},{"start":9377.02,"end":9390.982,"text":"死亡是95 95佔0.3%那像這一次以張宏祿委員為例他的死亡率是7%那剛剛有提到郭台銘因為郭台銘的那一個分數是100多萬份所以他的那個佔的是"},{"start":9392.043,"end":9410.49,"text":"我看一下我剛才按了一下計算機百分之0.005啦所以就是說死亡連署這件事情其實它有一個誤差範圍在誤差範圍之下通常來講就是要看到底是不是有偽造的情勢那像基隆這一件也是一樣我看他們在問的時候他們就是想說這些交出來的人"},{"start":9411.01,"end":9431.028,"text":"明明他可能就已經死他不一定是死亡他可能跟死亡無關但有沒有偽造的情形是他個別看但今天在這一個國民黨所發起的罷免運動裡面其實很明顯的可以發現那是跟名冊有關因為他們自己就有說他們抄名冊嘛所以他跟個別有人交出來有可能偽造跟你抄名冊這是兩件完全不同的事情"},{"start":9432.449,"end":9458.234,"text":"把這個都全部混在一起講然後這都是個案我是覺得在國會的殿堂這樣說真的不是很妥當啦所以這個這也只能請部長就是說針對個案的部分可能不能夠回答的太多啦剛剛聽起來應該都是有警守這個分際但是說真的我是不希望就是我只是要來問別的事情但是看到這樣的一個局面那但是接下來我想問一下就是這一個忠誠考核的這件事情就是說"},{"start":9460.916,"end":9478.984,"text":"這個終審考核我認為有幾個階段第一個就是他到底是要對誰然後再來就是他什麼時候要查還要查什麼內容大概就這三個那這個查的對象我那時候在看你們今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說因為立院也有公職人員那立院的公職人員是可以查的這個沒問題"},{"start":9479.864,"end":9504.324,"text":"對不對 他包含在這個裡面嘛但是就是說如果我們只要把這個範圍稍微擴大一下因為現在的範圍有點窄但是畢竟他是公職人員如果請調查局查可能還合理但如果一旦進入到譬如說助理的部分可能就會打一個問號所以我在這邊想問一下就是第一個就是說目前機要的部分是有包含在這一個那個辦法嗎就是有一個涉及什麼XXX那個辦法裡面機要有包含在裡面嗎"},{"start":9506.195,"end":9529.876,"text":"現在的一千三百多人有沒有機要報告委員目前有部分的部會他的機要人員是有在這個查核表裡面對但是剛剛委員提到立法院的公職人員目前立法院是沒有提列對沒有在裡面的對對對所以這個範圍當然這個設成就第一個機要是不是應該更大範圍的第一個"},{"start":9530.596,"end":9559.676,"text":"第二個就是說立法院如果他是公職人員我覺得是有機會因為他是公職人員這有機會然後第三個就是說呢這一個可能接觸的人員剛剛逸川有提到那個比如說保全啊清潔啊因為在美國他就分這三大類第一大類就是那種高度風險的就是跟國家機密有關的那第二大類就是一些委外廠商因為有時候委外廠商也會接觸到嘛所以他也要做security check這個careerance然後第三種就是他其實不應該接觸到但是可能接觸到比如說保全"},{"start":9560.576,"end":9585.324,"text":"清潔他們是把這三類都納入那因為這個是畢竟是辦法我是在想說我們有沒有可能修一個稍微先動一下母法但是這個辦法再做一個相對的修正那這個可能到之後我們再來做這個討論因為這個範圍我覺得會有一個不夠大的問題但是範圍雖然有不夠大但是範圍有時候一旦遇到利潤有可能會遇到一些障礙就像剛剛提到像助理這個部分因為如果助理的查核"},{"start":9586.264,"end":9603.163,"text":"是交給調查局來吵和他們一定會講說那我如果說我這是目前我是反對黨你怎麼可以來吵我助理等等之類可能又會有這樣的一個聲音所以這個到底該怎麼做我是有點擔心因為如果留給立法院做聽起來是合理但是問題是立法院剛剛內部自己做的話立法院沒有那個專長"},{"start":9604.713,"end":9623.799,"text":"所以到最後是要怎麼去做這個協助我覺得可能變得很重要你說立法院我們不管是院長或者其他層級的人叫他去做這種Security Check我覺得是做不到的啦所以我覺得這個要考慮一下我覺得這可以思考一下那第二個查核時機啦這個剛剛其實已經有提過就是說時間點就是說就任以前轉職什麼等等之類那時候要查一次嘛對不對那"},{"start":9624.699,"end":9644.128,"text":"再來就是說中間有可能五年有可能八年要再查一次然後再來還有離職以後就離職以後相關的規範我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的居人什麼等等之類的有做但顯然那個範圍又跟前面的有點不一樣所以那個範圍要怎麼去一致化就是前 中 後我覺得這很重要"},{"start":9644.708,"end":9658.889,"text":"那最後就是一個查核內容因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面內容就是有沒有附中啦有沒有這個家人有沒有在中國做什麼特定的事情啦但是我看美國的查核項目其實"},{"start":9660.29,"end":9686.525,"text":"蠻多的我們有可能要全面的盤點一下因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況啦我覺得這可能就是一個就是說他們那種中層柴核項目甚至有時候可以高達千項那我們可能可以把人員分成高中低三種不同的風險來做盤點那所以我覺得之後我覺得可能要盡速來討論就是我們在這邊如法我們要怎麼做然後那邊辦法可以做什麼樣的修改我覺得這幾個層次可能這可能蠻快需要是需要比較快速的盤點因為這個東西其實說起來是有點複雜啦"},{"start":9689.446,"end":9717.611,"text":"所以可能要請就法務部還要請調查局針對這件事情來多幫忙好 謝謝委員那最後就是我還是不太想講到那個事情不過這個因為我們這個吳委員他也是召委就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類或是各樣的方式所以可能我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答但是就是雖然個案不能回答但是在通案的部分比如說目前我們搜索的這個太陽可能有哪些"},{"start":9718.651,"end":9744.346,"text":"然後當然說當然並沒有剛剛其實是每一個個案的不同他發動的方式不同嗎有些可能是交件的人有時候可能是連署了有可能是提供名冊的人各式各樣不一樣那可能要稍微釐清一下但是還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面這個我說真的我今天早上因為我聽因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核義務的狀況我從早上聽到現在還是聽了不少個案那再請法務部和大局要多多注意好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":9746.565,"end":9769.825,"text":"好 謝謝沈委員 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言那吳思堯委員發言完畢之後 我們就休息五分鐘謝謝召委 有請部長麻煩部長等一下國防部的代表要一起 就是那個王處長"},{"start":9773.952,"end":9801.36,"text":"也是非常遺憾 司法法治委員會這個會期以來不斷地不斷地就個案然後來對官員為難大家就來講制度 就來論法一再地去講個案而且甚至是當事人也要有起碼的利益迴避針對剛剛王宏威委員所垂詢的事項我想很簡要的還是需要做幾個歸納第一個 民主不容造假"},{"start":9802.452,"end":9816.328,"text":"對不對民主絕對不容造假不管是過去國民黨執政時期的投票的作票它會影響選舉的公正或者是現在已經越來越少但還是會發生的會選"},{"start":9818.11,"end":9844.747,"text":"只要會選就會有刑責可能他當選也無效所以在罷免這件事情上一旦在連署涉及造假他也應當有同樣的民主不容造假的那個法律的效力還有政治的效力這是第一件事所以說民主不容造假不管是藍的綠的不分對象都應當查辦如果有違法事證"},{"start":9845.888,"end":9854.672,"text":"所以說呢現在中選會依職務告發部長你知道有幾件嗎根委員報41件41件嗎這41件是全部都是罷籃的嗎就是各黨派都有不是所以說中選會依職務告發的41件有藍有綠有違法事證就要辦因為民主不容造假這第一件事情"},{"start":9870.16,"end":9896.82,"text":"第二件事情現在來偵辦的這些事件裡頭呢其實法是誰修的上個會期國民黨翁小林委員所提案的選罷法98-2條所以法是國民黨修的第二個證據是誰提供的我以台北市來講台北市所提供的這些證據是台北市的地方選委會"},{"start":9898.772,"end":9909.966,"text":"提供的地方選委會的主委是身兼台北市政府的秘書長也是蔣萬安親自任命的李泰鑫主委他親自在議會的備詢就說了"},{"start":9912.768,"end":9934.53,"text":"所有在台北市的死人連署幽靈連署造假連署都是誰查對誰提報的呢都是戶政事務所以及台北市的選委會所以現在檢調所偵辦的證據是誰提供的就台北市而言就是台北市政府所提供的嘛對不對這第二件事情"},{"start":9935.07,"end":9962.188,"text":"法是誰修的國民黨修的證據是誰提供的到目前為止是地方選委會所查對提報的我這樣理解正確吧第三個犯罪就是犯罪違法就是違法不論是誰該辦就辦司法偵辦的核心是證據而不是政治我已經N次說明了所以說剛剛的證據"},{"start":9964.406,"end":9984.493,"text":"提供給檢調的是台北市長蔣萬安主管的選委會提供的我不曉得為什麼有委員一直在這裡為難官員而且就個案好 我是當事人我在台下聽到真的是我實在很不想講我的案子吳思瑤的死亡連署86位佔4.09%"},{"start":9988.308,"end":10011.494,"text":"韓國瑜當初的死亡連署佔百分之零點三郭台銘那時候的死亡連署甚至連百分之零點零一都不到武四堯這一區的死亡幽靈連署高達八十六件佔百分之四點零九錯假連署整個錯誤率高達百分之三十四點五如果這是台北市選委會提供的喔所以如果是檢察官辦案"},{"start":10012.654,"end":10040.605,"text":"他就循證據去辦嘛我要把事情講清楚我不容有些人在這裡混淆然後來鬥臭司法來施壓司法我真的覺得比遺憾更遺憾好 接下來今天的主題喔保密防諜人人有責防範共諜呢就請國會一起來支持國安法案喔夏妍我年紀小的時候我是沒有什麼機會看童話故事"},{"start":10041.687,"end":10049.88,"text":"我年紀小的時候我是翻著爸爸帶回家的黨外雜誌在看的所以對於過去很多戒嚴時期的軍閥大嬸"},{"start":10052.193,"end":10073.184,"text":"1980年的美麗島事件的軍閥大審這在那個年代讓很多長一輩的台灣人對於軍審這件事情它存有一個時代遺留的標籤就是過去國民黨執政的戒嚴時期軍審會拿來打壓迫害政治犯"},{"start":10073.936,"end":10092.675,"text":"美麗島的軍閥大審就是我們這一代人印象深刻的事情所以要撕掉這個標籤新的要推動的軍事審查制度不能再犯嘛未來在對象上不可能再發生破壞政治犯的狀況嘛還是國防部要來講因為對象不一樣嘛"},{"start":10096.278,"end":10124.476,"text":"委員好 針對剛剛委員提的這個部分其實這次的修正第一個就是我們對象部分一定是現任軍人所以不會對平民也不會對政治犯現在也沒有這所謂的政治犯的辦案的狀況您先回答這個部分 下一頁我們要撕掉軍事審判在台灣人民心中另外一個標籤就是洪仲秋事件當初他沒有公開透明的審判機制還有軍中的階級"},{"start":10125.777,"end":10137.775,"text":"被霸凌所以軍中人權那個時候大家站出來以致於我們的軍事審判制度做了革新未來如果恢復的軍事審判制度會不會再發生同樣的洪仲秋的事件"},{"start":10138.564,"end":10162.246,"text":"報告委員這個案件其實給我們的啟示也是非常大所以我們這次的修正部分當然會針對當時的審判制度是不是有要修正的部分一定會來檢討的是所以不會再有下一個這樣的事件我們在新的軍事審判制度這個制度重新改革研議的時候一定要提醒彼此也要告訴社會再下一頁"},{"start":10163.936,"end":10186.198,"text":"現在早期的戒嚴時期 軍審會拿來對抗對付政治犯然後在過去洪仲秋那個時代可能會拿來對於一般軍中的一般案件現在我們如果要恢復軍事審判是因應新生 也不是新生事物啦而是說越來越嚴重的共諜滲透的事件嘛"},{"start":10187.839,"end":10200.951,"text":"這是現在我們重啟這個制度的一個很重要的現在我們要因應的危機所以說以這幾年來我看到共諜案的起訴人數是成長了400%從2024年已經到64位2021年只有16位"},{"start":10208.126,"end":10220.158,"text":"而我們一再的大家非常的訝異對於軍人佔共諜的比例不管退役或現役居然加總是佔66%也因為這樣子的與日俱增的共諜威脅在軍中"},{"start":10228.226,"end":10255.266,"text":"所以我們要嚴議啟動恢復軍事審判這是因應新的狀況我認為社會也會支持下一頁所以未來軍事審判重開機的話因為對象跟範圍都明確的界定所以不會針對一般平民他針對的是現役軍人而且是現役軍人當中犯陸海空軍刑法第二邊當中的重要的"},{"start":10257.936,"end":10271.22,"text":"所以說未來的制度配套非常重要它限縮了對象跟範圍是限於軍人職務上的犯罪為主如違反效忠國家職責罪章等等"},{"start":10272.06,"end":10280.045,"text":"然後未來我們要啟動配套的修法包括軍事法院組織法軍事檢察署的組織法也要來制定軍法官的人事條例要強化從事偵審的軍法官必須具備一定程度的軍事歷練然後呢在符合公平審判的原則正當法律程序的原則之下呢也要來採行全面強制的辯護廢除階級管轄等等也就是新"},{"start":10301.738,"end":10315.118,"text":"的恢復的軍事審判跟過去的軍事審判完全不一樣是不是是沒錯這個剛委員所提示的這些都是我們目前在修法的一個方向跟這個範圍那現在演繹到哪裡"},{"start":10318.167,"end":10337.047,"text":"目前我們針對細部條文都有在做調整那剛才也跟司法院副局長也講了我們這禮拜會跟司法院做一個交流跟協調所以預計如果跟司法院會嫌然後後續可能送到立法院審議的啟程會是落在"},{"start":10338.646,"end":10347.089,"text":"目前的規劃我們是在下半年會希望所以下會期渴望我們下半年會提到行政院去看行政院什麼時候再送過來所以我們有充分的時間我想未來在委員會各類的公聽會各類的制度的討論是必要的我們要私下過去均審在台灣人民心中那個負面的觀感負面的標籤這是我們努力的方向下演"},{"start":10365.134,"end":10386.631,"text":"但是共諜是無孔不入無所不在的宗教學術藝人網紅黑道乃至於民意代表這是過去我們所彙種的各個面向而法務部今天的報告書裡頭部長你們特別提到科技掏空利用這個危害經濟安全的這個"},{"start":10387.812,"end":10414.85,"text":"危害产业竞争力的这种并购啦或者是挖角啦或者是来窃取商业机密等等的产业的危机还有借选的渗透是第二类第三类当然就是军中相关的发展组织特别是用利诱或色诱的方式来拍摄投降的影音来瓦解我方国军的士气来破坏军纪无所不在"},{"start":10417.772,"end":10431.371,"text":"所以說呢防範共諜軍事審判只是其中一部分他是針對現役軍人他出賣國家違背職務 下一頁但是在社會面是很重要的"},{"start":10432.905,"end":10450.267,"text":"禮拜六凱道超過五萬人站出來拒絕統戰人民的怒吼響徹雲霄另外一個事情呢是2024年啊公民監督聯盟對於立法院的年度代表字是什麼部長知道嗎"},{"start":10452.182,"end":10478.687,"text":"就是共匪的匪啊小心共匪有沒有在立法院呢居然2024年立法院的年度代表字被公民監督聯盟長期來監督觀察立法院的問政品質的居然匪這個字被貼上了立法院我覺得這個也是立法院要思緒的負面標籤所以怎麼做呢"},{"start":10480.697,"end":10508.525,"text":"民進黨推的國安實法如果立法院要撕掉那個匪的負面標籤請在野黨的委員一起來支持國安法案目前民進黨提出來的有實法喔我這邊就不贅述其實當中跟法務部跟國防部很多都相關譬如說反滲透法啦國家安全法等等可是目前為止光"},{"start":10509.765,"end":10537.192,"text":"立委附中登載報備就已經被擋了332次如果立法院要撕掉匪共匪就在立法院嗎這個標籤的話請藍白的委員不要再擋國安實法因為如果國安實法繼續擋我們想方設法想要針對軍事審判的制度提了好多配套的修法一樣擋住不好啊"},{"start":10538.288,"end":10549.526,"text":"對不對這是我們共同面對的困境跟僵局在下一頁不只如此啊藍白的委員不只反國安法案還推親中法案"},{"start":10551.124,"end":10580.103,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例國家安全戰略法不再急投票離島建設條例不只洗人口還要洗產地然後還要把國家安全戰略的總統職權要擴大到立法院來決議定之立法院可以監督甚至反滲透法的修正案還要限縮將刑事責任改為行政罰還天啊我們的立法院在扯後腿我們的立法院在鬥退擼尾"},{"start":10581.664,"end":10605.957,"text":"這只是現在在野黨的委員推出來的親中法案的冰山一角我真的很擔心今天召委排了我們未來想要恢復軍事審判有效的針對百分之六十六的軍人被滲透的這個對象來加強他的刑責加強他的防範透過一個更透明更公開的軍事審判制度可是你在立法院賣鬼啊"},{"start":10609.844,"end":10622.711,"text":"要怎麼辦下一頁剛剛的問題我知道你們很難回答因為連我是執政黨的黨團幹部我都很難回答我每天還在奮戰我最後要提醒喔"},{"start":10624.025,"end":10649.827,"text":"回到也是相關的主題中國的借選也是破壞台灣民主制度非常嚴重的一種破壞民主的行為法務部你們過去的專案報告提出幾大樣類境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤或是透過散佈假訊息的認知作戰我提醒你們有借選就有借罷"},{"start":10651.618,"end":10673.914,"text":"有介入選舉就會有介入罷免的未來的投票或是現在二階的連署都有可能就以現在發動罷免的幾個領銜人就以我自己的這一區罷免吳思耀的領銜人有非常明確的紅統背景"},{"start":10674.898,"end":10701.969,"text":"而罷免許智傑委員的領銜人他甚至也要查查他還有沒有具備中國籍我不知道這個要查所以說過去在選舉的時候都有選舉的專案嘛對不對那部長法務部針對有可能的會不會發生的境外勢力比照過去借選的方法現在來借罷 介入罷免的民主"},{"start":10703.291,"end":10706.194,"text":"的這個手段你們會不會也啟動像選舉時期一樣的這種專案來強化"},{"start":10711.729,"end":10739.605,"text":"目前這個我們再來嚴厲我們請那個最高檢來嚴厲我要提醒你們因為同樣的都是境外敵對勢力透過各種方式不管認知作戰網路賭盤或是境外資金的介入來介入現在當然是在二階連署如果有未造的那就讓檢調去辦案但是這當中未來如果進入投票其實都很可能發生這個就會選舉叉叉"},{"start":10740.626,"end":10767.907,"text":"是 所以你們要有選舉查查的專案比較民主的選舉我們的罷免也是民主制度的一環我們超前部署不分對象秉公處置因為我們捍衛的都是台灣中華民國的民主我在這裡提醒您好嗎提醒法務部那國防部的同仁我們繼續不曉得怎麼辦軍事審判制度如果就藍白在這裡任何國安法案都擋"},{"start":10768.747,"end":10780.943,"text":"我實在對於未來軍事審判制度要上路能不能夠有效來防範軍人的被滲透我都相對悲觀但我們不會放棄努力好嗎 謝謝處長 謝謝部長好 謝謝 我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":11188.825,"end":11197.209,"text":"我們接下來繼續開會翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員下一位我們請鄭天才委員進行詢問鄭天才委員詢問完畢之後我們就處理臨時提案 謝謝"},{"start":11212.859,"end":11235.757,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請法務部部長麻煩部長還有調查局局長部長好 局長好我們看最近的共諜案"},{"start":11237.712,"end":11261.177,"text":"這個我們總統辦公室的之一吳尚儀這個涉及共諜案然後這個吳釗燮他的前助理也就在外交部國安會他的助理之一的這個身份的很高都是紀澳人員"},{"start":11262.726,"end":11290.983,"text":"姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜案當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思源還有這個新北市議員李怡典當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案"},{"start":11292.233,"end":11318.722,"text":"那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個"},{"start":11321.226,"end":11345.545,"text":"花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官的資料裡面顯示"},{"start":11347.129,"end":11369.752,"text":"責任明良真違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的"},{"start":11371.946,"end":11392.025,"text":"有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個我知道這個這個就是一個"},{"start":11397.281,"end":11418.894,"text":"辦欄不辦例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文"},{"start":11420.615,"end":11448.546,"text":"個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借職務上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條"},{"start":11450.762,"end":11472.993,"text":"公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項 第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核"},{"start":11474.221,"end":11503.359,"text":"公務 選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務"},{"start":11504.943,"end":11529.8,"text":"更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替代役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍"},{"start":11533.485,"end":11559.976,"text":"戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長"},{"start":11564.468,"end":11573.673,"text":"局長 調查局局長 怎麼樣本來就要去查 去問他因為我父級資料看不出來啊"},{"start":11575.488,"end":11591.719,"text":"謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部"},{"start":11595.602,"end":11615.202,"text":"這個你說當然你一定回答說這個個案不可以回答但是法律的規定最起碼有責任有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解所有的代法局能夠了解相關的法規好不好我們現在就是依這個法在執行好謝謝"},{"start":11618.629,"end":11647.674,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在就依照先前宣告所以臨時提案總共有一案宣讀後再進行處理那我們現在請議事人員宣讀臨時提案一列以今日本會邀請司法院副秘書長法務部部長法務部調查局局長法務部廉政署署長國家安全會議等進行專題報告並被質詢舉料國安會敬禮為今主席准假未派員到會列席依我國近期接連爆出共諜案執政府"},{"start":11648.414,"end":11669.419,"text":"執政黨、府院黨皆淪陷從2017年5月24日吳釗燮擔任總統府秘書長、2018年2月26日外交部部長甚至現在擔任國家安全會議秘書長、共諜皆隨時左右甚至總統、世衛士也淪陷可說敵人就在本能寺然國安會禁衛道會列席如此心虛"},{"start":11670.259,"end":11693.216,"text":"且藐視國會之行為令人瞠目結舌且不恥二 國家安全會議組織法第八條國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院之監督國家安全局組織另以法律定之本會依法監督國安會自無爭議三 中央行政機關組織基準法第三條依機關就法定事務有決定並表示國家意思於外部而依組織法律或命令以下簡稱組織法規設立行使公權力之組織"},{"start":11696.258,"end":11721.398,"text":"國安會既為機關且下轄國安局所謂諮詢機關實屬矛盾原此決議如下一國安會未經本會輪值召委同意拒絕到會接受監督藐視本會應受應於譴責二國安會應於今日十二點前派員列席本會報告提案人委員黃國昌 林倩琦 王宏威宣讀完畢好 謝謝那請問提案委員有補充說明沒有"},{"start":11721.923,"end":11725.467,"text":"那針對臨時提案 請問機關有其他意見或說明那沒有的話 請問在場委員有異議或是有意見補充 王委員"},{"start":11746.269,"end":11755.192,"text":"我再詢問一次我們司法法治委員會的同仁你們有沒有收到國家安全會議的請假書函可以回答嗎你們剛剛10點多回答我都沒有對不對對 他們有發文 但是我們沒收文你們沒收到是吧我們沒收文好"},{"start":11773.817,"end":11783.382,"text":"2025年4月18號16點39分18秒立法院司法法治委員會 收文確認你們自己收啦 你們的電子公文自己收啦然後我剛剛問你 主席還叫你們去查你們都收咧你們都收公文 然後主席叫你們去查查完之後你說你們都沒收到我剛剛10點多問你 你們都沒收到"},{"start":11804.807,"end":11814.563,"text":"然後吳宗憲委員辦公室是在2022年4月18號16點38分50秒收到了沒有 沒有這種事情啊沒有啊"},{"start":11819.301,"end":11834.562,"text":"我們這邊沒有收那誰幫你們收啦對,而且我已經說明得非常清楚了當天有自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室那我辦公室...好,那稍微我不為難你我不為難你我..."},{"start":11837.145,"end":11856.66,"text":"他說要請假 然後他就問了那位國安會的人說 請問有沒有跟召委說他說沒有 那我們同仁就拒收這我剛剛在電子公文有報告過OK 這我九點多有聽到 我現在只是要確認司法法治委員會的同仁你們在禮拜五沒有收到任何的電子公文你們也沒有任何的確認 對嗎"},{"start":11858.527,"end":11866.89,"text":"我剛剛10點都問一次你們說對我現在要問你們要說對要確定喔這個所有收文的紀錄都在上面"},{"start":11884.824,"end":11908.332,"text":"我想我這邊就是從頭到尾沒有來跟我請假就對了講一個最簡單的我不管國安會今天跟誰請假那各位很多人也都做過召委那如果說今天機關的人來他完全連我他們都不來理我那我今天不管他跟誰請假就是沒有人來跟我請假以上吳委員"},{"start":11910.649,"end":11921.277,"text":"主席剛剛您不是說國安會有派人到您辦公室要跟您請假嗎這不是剛剛您說的您現在又說沒有人來跟您請假我再說一次他沒有來找我"},{"start":11922.88,"end":11940.261,"text":"到您的辦公室不是要找委員嗎事實只有我清楚 我跟各位報告 我說清楚一下第一個 有一位自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室拿了一個信封袋"},{"start":11940.862,"end":11961.485,"text":"然後跟我助理問他說你是誰有什麼事因為他事先完全沒有跟我們通知然後這位人自稱是國安會的人說想要來請假然後我的助理就問他說有沒有跟昭偉說過那他們說沒有那我助理非常簡單的就跟他說那他拒收除非他們先跟我講"},{"start":11962.626,"end":11973.135,"text":"大家都做過召委那今天如果有任何一個機關很簡單就說我如果要請假我不想去我就不爽寄個email給你那就代表我請假成功這部分我不接受因為我們委員不是一天24小時都坐在辦公室嗎"},{"start":11982.162,"end":12003.418,"text":"所以各個部門要找委員送公文說明預算說明法案那必然都會先派員我想剛剛主席所說的國安會不知道是誰應當是國安會的聯絡人或者是業務單位的誰沒有人知道他是誰他不可能沒有人知道他是誰而且事先沒有先約跑進來進了你的辦公室就說他是國安會的人重點是沒有人來跟我說"},{"start":12011.884,"end":12015.066,"text":"委員如果您當召委我們要跟你講話他不告訴你我沒有緊張啦我是要跟你講狀況你不要在那邊亂帶風向奇怪了"},{"start":12024.15,"end":12044.506,"text":"我在恢復整個事實譬如說常常會有文化部的到辦公室說遞資料給吳委員吳思堯委員那吳委員不在就資料留給我們那如果吳委員看到資料還有進一步想要理解我會再打電話給文化部也許是部長也許是次長"},{"start":12045.609,"end":12050.914,"text":"一般都是這樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣"},{"start":12064.606,"end":12068.768,"text":"那他第一時間吃了閉門羹我們可以解釋的就是他吃了閉門羹吳釗偉不認同這種方式他吃了閉門羹那不代表他沒有試圖要去請假這第一件事是您不接受第二件事情就是這個收發文的系統"},{"start":12083.257,"end":12105.292,"text":"可能要請立法院的立法院的因為呢這個收發文的系統非常清楚的載明說司法法治委員會2025年4月18日16點39分18秒已經寄了這個請假的函文而且收文方確認然後在之前的28秒前2025年4月18號16點38分50秒"},{"start":12113.637,"end":12131.812,"text":"是寄給吳宗憲、昭偉辦公室而且收文方確認那如果說那個昭偉您這邊說您沒有收到然後司法法治委員會也說你們沒有收到那可能要請立法院的資訊處來查一下那這個東西因為很清楚嘛這是系統顯示的嘛"},{"start":12132.752,"end":12148.275,"text":"那難道就是系統出錯了嗎主席我想直接處理好嗎直接處理我是要委員的意思那以後吳校委員您當召委的時候任何一個機關不想來寫個email給你今天我就表示我請假完成你就必須聽我的"},{"start":12149.318,"end":12176.274,"text":"是這樣的意思嗎我今天擔任召委我擔任主席請尊重我的意見麻煩來跟我說清楚要請假的原因如果說今天有任何人想要請假麻煩跟主席說明請假的原因並且得到主席的同意這是立法院一直以來的慣例我們不接受你寫一個email或一個電子公文進來"},{"start":12176.994,"end":12181.081,"text":"我就要照單全收各機關的想法沒有沒有主席不要緊張沒有這種事情"},{"start":12182.369,"end":12185.491,"text":"我們只是在釐清他有沒有寄函文我們只是在釐清我沒有說您接不接受請假 等一下 趙偉我剛剛的詢問只是在確認他們有沒有試圖來請假那有電子還有當日那您不接受這是另外一個層次沒有試圖來請假"},{"start":12208.268,"end":12208.809,"text":"請問一下我們臨時提案提案非常清楚"},{"start":12225.191,"end":12251.403,"text":"未經主席準價第一段請大家看到未經主席準價未派員到會列席好那最後我們的決議第一個也是國安會未經本會輪值召委同意未經同意然後拒絕到會接受監督所以我想剛才所講的這些事情跟我們的提案無關跟我們提案無關所以在這邊直接請求主席來處理臨時提案"},{"start":12252.663,"end":12265.429,"text":"是 謝謝 那我再跟各位報告另外一件事情依據我國的法制 我國的憲法制度立法委員是監督政府 不是護航政府那我們就依法處理那我們現在處理臨時提案 來 莊委員"},{"start":12267.858,"end":12288.722,"text":"趙薇 你也趙薇 我也趙薇講這個話 可能要稍微斟酌一下請坐 我不會針對你就是說其實 確實請假要趙薇來准假這也都是事實所以你們都很生氣沒有跟趙薇請假 你會很生氣吧會同仇敵愾 對不對我告訴你 前兩個禮拜"},{"start":12293.476,"end":12316.69,"text":"我邊更議程那一次請立法院秘書長周恩來來列席報告他連請假都沒跟我請假你應該跟我一樣生氣才對他是一定要來不是嗎那你剛提到的就是說其實提他涉及到有沒有請假那是一個意思表示的問題意思表示本來第一個有口頭"},{"start":12318.613,"end":12322.537,"text":"這個書面我們法律院我們都很清楚嘛他確實有請假但是你沒准啦應該這樣講嘛這樣才完整嘛對不對就是說國安會的人他有需要給你請假可是因為你是召委你認為他必須要親自來給你請假才可以他沒有來找我請假我再講一次"},{"start":12338.035,"end":12349.17,"text":"當然啦 我懂你的意思 我也沒有說他找你請假嘛就他到辦公室去嘛 搞不好去了他想找你嘛 還沒碰到你嘛那這個也沒有負面的評價嘛那所以呢 應該就是回到說"},{"start":12355.637,"end":12378.392,"text":"國安會的秘書長他到底有沒有這個義務到立法院備詢國安會的秘書長可不可以到立法院備詢當然可以啊你報告預算的時候當然要到立法院備詢啦國家安全的大政政策的部分他當然也就必須要來啦那個案的部分其實這個就代表會有爭議啊那你說很生氣你要譴責他"},{"start":12380.993,"end":12400.861,"text":"這個就是行李如意而已嘛我也不會有意見嘛可是不要去講說沒有人找你請假或者說在本案裡面屬性不明的時候你要發動這個譴責案這當然是一個政治的一個主張我也不會有意見可是我必須要告訴你就是說我們召委常常會碰到這種狀況該來的他連請都不請喔你們的好朋友"},{"start":12408.545,"end":12425.044,"text":"這個會有相同標準但是我也沒有去做處理年紀大了那開玩笑那年紀那麼大我一譴責他那萬一怎麼樣別上罵名我才不要呢那真的我話還是要講清楚啦以上謝謝莊委員那我這邊再一次的說明狀況"},{"start":12427.608,"end":12442.51,"text":"事實上就是確實國安會有一位自稱國安會的人在先沒有跟我們聯絡的情況下跑到辦公室去拿了一個信封說要請假那我們同仁問他有沒有跟我講過那一位人說沒有"},{"start":12443.271,"end":12471.209,"text":"那我們同仁也是跟他說叫他要跟召委講一下但是從此就完全沒有任何訊息我想中委員當召委一定也不可能接受這樣子的做法那如果這樣子的話那是不是請假變成是我跟你報備就好了那也不用經過你的同意這也不是立法院一直以來的做法那第二個就是說有關中委員剛剛提到的秘書長的部分我想我們今天從頭到尾我們都沒有指定要求秘書長要到"},{"start":12472.21,"end":12486.222,"text":"我們是依據以前的慣例那這個慣例甚至是段宜康以前多次的慣例那我後來又再找出好幾次國安會都有派人來在非法律案以及非預算案的時候都有派人來那我們今天並沒有指定一定要祕書長來"},{"start":12487.783,"end":12514.98,"text":"所以大家可以看到我們簽到處的名字部分是空白其實我們是他們派任何人來我們可以接受我們只要能夠問到我們的問題就好其實我已經給國安會最大的空間了我並沒有指定他要來就個案部分或怎麼樣去做報告所以這以上是我說明的部分但我覺得我還是必須堅守立法院的尊嚴任何機關受立法院的邀請那如果你不能來"},{"start":12516.101,"end":12540.894,"text":"就要麻煩你請假,而且要經過召委統,我想這一直以來都是這麼做不管面對國民黨或民進黨那今天就是沒有任何一位國安會的人來跟我請假所以這就是結論,我們不要在講一些用字遣詞上面的文字在那邊玩,我覺得不需要今天我跟各位報告,就是沒有任何一個人來跟我請假,好謝謝那我們來處理臨時提案"},{"start":12551.866,"end":12563.21,"text":"主席不好意思你們可不可以拜託主席再回應一下關於這個電子公文收發系統的問題剛剛吳思耀委員有提出來說到底是不是需要資訊處幫忙確認不然為什麼我們現在手上拿這個表達"},{"start":12567.551,"end":12575.38,"text":"他所說的是收文方確認這是我們資訊系統出的問題還是因為斯大法斯委員會的議事人員你們的認知不一樣時間的關係我想說明清楚如果今天是報備制那你們說的都可以"},{"start":12582.908,"end":12608.152,"text":"但今天請弄清楚在立法院是許可要召委同意而且沒有任何一個人打一通電話或見到我的面來跟我講今天沒有辦法過來以上就是我已經說明的非常清楚了你既然要去搞公文搞那些那以後所有的機關在貴黨當召委的時候我寫個email給你那就代表你請假你不准你給我試試看是這樣嗎所以我沒有辦法"},{"start":12609.346,"end":12630.998,"text":"不是 他沒有來找我請假 這要我講幾次大家才聽得懂沒有任何一個人來找我請假不要再去凹那些 沒有任何一個人來找我請假 這就是事實那我們來出於臨時提案我沒有時間在這邊跟你們玩文字遊戲臨時提案的部分 請問在場委員就臨時提案有意義"},{"start":12632.639,"end":12660.767,"text":"好有異議的話那我們舉手表決好那表決前請先清點在場出席委員人數好那在場出席委員11人那我們現在開始進行表決就今日的臨時提案贊成者請舉手好請放下反對者請舉手"},{"start":12665.633,"end":12675.566,"text":"好請放下好那個表決結果在場出席委員11人贊成者6人反對者5人本案贊成者多數通過"},{"start":12679.889,"end":12698.694,"text":"好那我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間持續進行至所登記發言委員詢答結束為止接著我們請陳冠廷委員發言陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷委員徐宇貞委員接著我們請徐宇貞委員發言"},{"start":12719.362,"end":12725.364,"text":"謝謝主席我們請防務部鎮部長跟調查局陳局長好 麻煩鎮部長 局長委員好部長好部長我想請教一下這段時間我們對於這個檢調的辦案方式覺得十分的困惑就是檢調單位對於國民黨罷免綠委的連署動作如臨大敵"},{"start":12745.43,"end":12762.11,"text":"不但大動作搜索我們國民黨的地方黨部還對我們台北市黨部的主委黃磊錦如深壓敬見結果法院最後也判決說無任何證據可證其涉案甚至連經手提人名冊的事實都不存在"},{"start":12762.831,"end":12783.436,"text":"所以這種先射箭後劃靶的這種荒唐巨馬象徵著警察圈的一個濫用檢察圈的一個濫用更是對民主政治的一個踐踏而且讓大家感到困惑的是對於參與聯署的年輕人要50萬交保甚至有的被鮮壓但是對於涉及共諜案在"},{"start":12784.116,"end":12788.279,"text":"我們的前立法院院長的辦公室的助理設共諜案的才20萬交保所以請問一下部長為什麼可以有這樣子的一個差別"},{"start":12795.989,"end":12814.043,"text":"跟委員報告因為是個案的一個不同就像共諜案也有人收押嘛共諜案收押是在他離開了這個地方被調查大概一年半之後後院的壓力才收押的那個案的情節也不同那我也沒有參與過辦案那請問部長你沒有參與你又說這是個案那我想請教你你認為涉嫌共諜而且危害到國家安全比較重要"},{"start":12823.99,"end":12847.883,"text":"還是這個偽造文書比較重要哪個情節比較重大這個案的情節本來就不一樣嘛所以供諜不是有收押的嗎有好幾個要請問一下我剛剛提到的這原來在我們前這個立法院長游錫坤辦公室的這個助理盛楚英他用20萬交保他原來在立法院院長的辦公室喔那涉及供諜結果他居然可以這樣輕輕放過用20萬交保部長剛剛我聽到你說這是個案"},{"start":12852.145,"end":12864.879,"text":"好 那請問個案的話 共諜案表示比較不重要但是我們被因為連署疑似 疑似偽造文書的就生壓境界我們最近有四個都收押了嘛"},{"start":12865.763,"end":12882.269,"text":"對不對但是這四個收押是在一年半他離職一年半之後礙於輿論的壓力才收押的所以最後國安社很重視所以才會被爭霸所以如果還是這樣子一個雙標的存在其實人民對司法真的沒有辦法信服沒有雙標的話我們覺得好我剛剛有問部長嘛到底你覺得國家安全比較重要還是涉及偽造文書比較重要為什麼可以這樣子"},{"start":12891.292,"end":12911.283,"text":"偽造人書50萬交保涉及共諜20萬交保部長我很尊重您我覺得這個部分您也是這方面的事實上您一路上來您在法務部的各個位置都歷練過相信您對於這樣子的一個標準您自然心中有一個定見"},{"start":12912.384,"end":12929.795,"text":"但是我想全國人民都在看看我們的檢調系統看我們的法務系統要怎麼來去處理這樣子一個案子可是我們目前看到都是這種雙重標準而且半藍不半綠所以這一次我們看到的這些檢調的刀鋒根本就是針對在野黨"},{"start":12930.896,"end":12949.132,"text":"要不然的話不會用這樣的一個方式我們現在還有這個國民黨的黨部的副主委在收下禁建還有國民黨黨部的同仁在收下禁建然後接下來這個新北市黨部已經交保的新北市的地檢署又說要提出這個抗告"},{"start":12949.913,"end":12968.312,"text":"所以讓人家覺得就是小案大辦甚至高雄的這個領銜人徐尚賢他爸爸也提到了說這根本就是小鳥大炮打小鳥的一個狀況為什麼我們的檢調系統我們的法務系統會讓人民這樣的不幸福我覺得這個部分我覺得法務部真的要好好的來檢討一下"},{"start":12970.175,"end":12995.157,"text":"這個法官都准 這個搜索票是法官准的那個羈押也是法官剛剛我想王宏威委員有跟您提到嘛我們的台北市黨部跟我們這個幾個區黨部是聯合辦公的所以針對霸雙無的案子呢是在市北還有在這個萬華中正可是卻搜索了中山大同而且帶著我們的黨員名冊這樣是可以的嗎"},{"start":12995.851,"end":13021.442,"text":"喔這個是個案齁那因為我對個案我不清楚部長那又是個案了也就是說我們現在如果在同一個共享辦公室辦公的話全部的人都要配合這個搜索嗎假設我今天就在一個共享辦公室那今天要調查A公司那我剩下的公司全部都要配合搜索嗎我有這個義務要配合搜索嗎可以拿走我們的名冊嗎你現在是要調查"},{"start":13025.464,"end":13037.604,"text":"霸雙無的連鎖案沒錯吧那是屬於市北跟這個中正萬華跟大同中山又有什麼關係怎麼可以用這樣的一個方式那另外呢我也請教這個陳局長"},{"start":13040.202,"end":13066.056,"text":"有關媒體報導就是有一天呢調查局忽然通知這個我們的外站的官員進行聯合線上視訊要求這個各外勤站還有權力偵辦罷免偽造及往生連署的案件喔那調查局在視訊中也特別的舉台南檢調辦林俊憲跟王定宇罷免造假的案子參與那當然我想參與視訊的人員"},{"start":13068.217,"end":13081.574,"text":"接下來就毛起來衝藍營的罷免的涉案喔而且調查局也為此提供專簽績效獎勵辦罷免案查詐騙有績效獎金嗎查供諜有績效獎金嗎為什麼查這個罷免連署的就有績效獎金沒有"},{"start":13086.8,"end":13112.142,"text":"沒有,是怎麼樣?沒有績效獎金那有這件事嗎?剛剛講的,有這樣的一個視訊會議嗎?但是沒有針對藍綠,對我們來說只有證據,沒有藍綠那請問一下,不管是部長,還有我們的局長在3月24號,我們就有去提告10位罷藍委的聯署人還有領銜團體,他們有偽造情勢的事情到現在快一個月了,一件都沒辦"},{"start":13113.163,"end":13117.472,"text":"但是呢現在罷綠委的呢一件一件的一直偵辦所以你剛剛講的沒有這個辦藍不辦綠的問題根本就是雙標"},{"start":13123.516,"end":13143.109,"text":"要不然為什麼我們從3月20日去提告的到現在都沒辦反而後面提告的已經都在甄辦了4月1號中選會提出來這樣子的一個告發之後馬上就如火如荼的到處搜索大搜索然後大這個大收押那為什麼我們3月20日去提告到現在都一件都沒辦"},{"start":13144.109,"end":13160.787,"text":"我是不曉得委員提告的是哪些啦但是以調查局在執行目前在執行來講的話我們不會去管他藍的綠的我們就是只有管證據當天我們提告的有罷免這個油耗的偽造情勢的有罷免王宏威的偽造情勢的"},{"start":13161.207,"end":13175.957,"text":"有罷免丁薛忠的偽造情事甚至有罷免高宏安市長的偽造情事總共有10件我們是到地檢署去提告的所以到現在將近一個月都沒有提告但4月1號中選會才提出這樣的告發卻已經連續偵辦而且到處亂搜查而且剛剛我們也講過了針對我們黃綠主委的部分"},{"start":13182.922,"end":13210.011,"text":"事後根本查無完全事證不能因為他就是黨部的高層他就被這個懷疑是設法所以這次檢調的這樣的一個動作已經引起所有民眾的一個憤怒了所以請局長針對這個部分說明我想我再次跟委員報告在我們的調查的過程裡面我們就是只有看證據不會去看它藍綠所以不管是藍的綠的只要有證據我們一律通通都會判那剛剛我提的"},{"start":13212.312,"end":13219.597,"text":"這個罷 這個罷 攔尾的部分我們去告發的到現在快一個月了為什麼都沒有那那檢察官有發查的我們一定都是在偵查中那所以呢"},{"start":13220.592,"end":13239.865,"text":"所以發查的那些偵查中然後快賣是由你們自己決定要先查哪一件是由你們自己決定要蒐證啊這個部分要蒐證啊那請問要蒐證的狀況下為什麼沒辦法蒐證你看像後面的像前兩天呢這個什麼罷免那個我們林沛翔委員的有116件被告發"},{"start":13242.026,"end":13260.986,"text":"好 結果咧 不是去偵查 不是去搜索領銜人或霸團居然去找連署的人 問他有沒有連署這樣的執法是不是過當 而且是不是也是搞錯重點對啊 所以委員就是說 如果我們努力去做那你又說我們這個做了過頭"},{"start":13263.828,"end":13284.962,"text":"主長 你剛講的話都有在錄影 你要負責喔我剛剛講的是說 人家去提告的部分你應該是要去找領銜人嘛 你應該去找霸團嘛你怎麼會去找連署人說 你有沒有去連署而且早上六點半就去人家家裡搜索"},{"start":13285.882,"end":13309.5,"text":"這樣叫做你們有查這個我們依照檢察官的指揮檢察官的指揮檢察官的指揮叫你們這樣做只要去查連署人 不用查領銜人 不用查霸團看個案的內容 我現在沒有辦法跟你說我想部長還有局長我覺得檢調應該要司法公正請還給我們人民一個信任真的不要再這樣子辦男不辦女我們本來就是依法正辦 謝謝"},{"start":13312.349,"end":13314.57,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言請部長跟局長好 麻煩部長 局長"},{"start":13347.647,"end":13371.061,"text":"司法最基本的一定是要公正公平對不對我看了一下目前因為這個罷免案的連署兩邊去檢舉之後中選會告發的罷免就是民進黨連署有15個案子再加高鴻安一共16個案子"},{"start":13372.946,"end":13387.024,"text":"相對這邊國民黨罷民進黨17個案子16比17結果目前已經辦了國民黨已經被辦了5個案子0比5這個有符合司法的公正跟公平嗎"},{"start":13391.017,"end":13417.08,"text":"這個每個案件的一個案情不一樣啦 案情不一樣那我也不會干涉介入 我也沒有去參與了解這些事你有聽到你這層檢察官說你這樣是不是變成司法打手了怎麼會這麼不公平 你看看咧明明是加起來16比17啊你再怎麼取樣都不可能出現這種不公平吧剛剛 局長你剛才的意思你剛才的意思是法務部"},{"start":13418.26,"end":13437.856,"text":"檢察官這邊都沒有沒有沒有發查你現在責任是推給那個推給那個檢察官這邊嗎沒有檢察官有發查但是應該是沒有全部我們現在沒發查你為什麼0比5呢為什麼出現0比5你的意思是報告員如果你有注意到的話其實目前現在發動偵辦的都是一些死亡連署"},{"start":13439.147,"end":13461.664,"text":"的一個狀況基隆您配講那個是110多個不是死亡連署是什麼那個不是死亡連署他沒有任何死亡連署嗎來你看他不是你看中選會來看中選會的告發他什麼一件以上有涉及死亡連署或者其他的這裡面有多少16個案15加1包括高雄案的有多少是有死亡連署的你目前辦案子給我看有沒有"},{"start":13463.005,"end":13470.932,"text":"我們現在辦的都是死亡連署因為死亡連署死亡連署就是一個很明顯你不要硬啊 你不要閃避這16個案子裡面沒有任何一個案子是有死亡連署的嗎這個要看個案的要看個案 你這邊已經辦了南京這邊辦了5個啊你這邊16個 我問你16個裡面沒有任何一個有死亡連署嗎"},{"start":13487.113,"end":13503.983,"text":"其實對我們來說沒有這個要經得起考驗喔這個非常經得起考驗對我們來說其實是沒有藍綠我們只是從這些死亡連署的人數太多的這些狀況可能檢察官覺得這個是比較嚴重的第一個中選會是有一個以上他就告發了這是第一次嘛對不對第一次的"},{"start":13506.144,"end":13522.919,"text":"那你應該同時辦啊你覺得有 到目前我就是在辦啊你去辦 辦到一個5比0報告一個5比0局長 局長 局長你能不能給我的答案 局長現在是嚴重 這個司法的天秤 嚴重傾斜嘛我看到也知道啊現在就是說 你到底當時要辦"},{"start":13524.801,"end":13544.217,"text":"你要公平嘛我現在不是講藍綠的問題你要司法是要公正跟公平的你什麼時候綠的才要辦我們很同意委員說這個司法要公平我們不是講藍綠你這樣有公平嗎我們現在就是針對如果委員你去看那些死亡連署的狀況你就會出現你就會知道說問題出在哪裡對啊你綠的我就問你綠的都沒有死亡連署嗎"},{"start":13551.341,"end":13571.769,"text":"都沒有是嗎?15加1 包括高黃界的案 霸藍的15個案子 都沒有嗎?現在在國會殿堂 現在是對著全民講話 局長現在檢驗兩個嘛 你什麼時候開始辦綠第二個你在辦的時候有多少個是有死亡連署是綠的發起的一定經得起考驗 一定經得起考驗"},{"start":13572.622,"end":13597.717,"text":"好 現在是考驗 有 全民正在看你你目前已經經不起考驗了0比5你接下來就看你的進度來 保定幫你理解我們年紀都差不多啦我跟你講一個比較沉痛的事情我們這個年紀啊我們經過戒嚴到解嚴多少人為了台灣的民主法治 人權不要說流血流汗 連性命都丟了啦那鄭南榕為了爭取言論100%你們現在辦這個案子這樣"},{"start":13601.572,"end":13626.809,"text":"這樣辦不只是沒有公正沒有公平我問你一個最簡單的你應該是一個民主素養的法務部長轉秀改民主國家除了台灣這一次國民黨的台北市黨部被你們搜索了近景連柯文哲家裡面跟民眾黨的中央黨部都被你們搜索了你的腦海裡面全世界民主國家有那個國家"},{"start":13628.901,"end":13657.183,"text":"檢調去搜索在野黨的這個辦公室的有沒有幾個給我聽這個我對這邊是沒有人介入美國如果共和黨執政如果共和黨執政敢去搜索民進黨民主黨任何一個辦公室而且這個是權力分立的嘛這個有犯罪嫌疑要搜索的話這是要跟法院申請的如果法院沒有搜索的必要所以柏定我說你我們的年紀差不多我們經歷了那個整個民主進程你現在倒退如何啦"},{"start":13658.984,"end":13675.139,"text":"這個對你來講歷史定位這是一個傷害你要想辦法去補貼王往前邁進我剛問你的是一個全世界的標準全世界有哪個民主國家發生了最近這八九個月以來民眾黨的中央黨部被搜索國民黨的"},{"start":13676.53,"end":13704.13,"text":"台南的黨部被搜索台北市黨部被搜索現在台南新北都有多少人有五個人被你們縮壓我現在問的是一個普世的價值全世界民主國家美國這樣共和黨執政他敢去搜索民主黨的這個黨部嗎所以跟委員報告這個圍罩署要圍罩題這本來就是破壞民主法治的基石所以這次貴大院也是不是在去年也通過了選罷法的修法"},{"start":13705.83,"end":13729.619,"text":"嚴懲就是這些圍罩鼠鴨圍罩這些的提議的這些的未經他們同意的我現在跟你講的我現在跟你講的是這個本來就是我現在跟你講的是你的歷史定位怎麼樣去捍衛台灣的法治跟人權我給你一個標準是說你去看看全世界的全世界的民主國家有哪一個民主國家"},{"start":13730.579,"end":13748.902,"text":"在野黨的黨部 中央黨部像最近這8個多月以來被這樣收手你們要經得去考驗那你如果還在意的話我講的話你還在意的話要想一想 夜深人靜的時候想一想你的歷史定位是什麼好 接下來司法處剛剛講的公正跟公平比例原則很重要嘛 對不對這是比例原則也很重要嘛 我問啊共諜案 民進黨連環報你們有沒有要好好去辦"},{"start":13758.502,"end":13779.596,"text":"相對的比例原則 你說有死人去連署偽造文書嘛 告知嘛 對不對這是重罪嗎國家安全這個才是國家安全法這個才是重罪法 七年以上啊這邊五年以下啊你現在用大砲打小鳥不只是無比零的問題耶需要去大縮手 大縮腰嗎這個沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":13783.832,"end":13792.154,"text":"個案不同啊個案不同 這五個個案變成一個通案嘛 對不對結果你五個通案的原則是什麼就是大搜索大收押嘛不是這樣嗎這個犯罪嫌疑重大當然有刑訴書啊 101條的這些要件的話 申請判決嫌疑重大 它的圖顯是五年以下它是重大犯罪嗎你要好好辦 你去辦共諜案民進黨的共諜案這完全是回到法律"},{"start":13812.038,"end":13836.819,"text":"刑事訴訟法的法律都有規定以及那個案情以及那個偵查案罪已經有多少法界的人士從學者到法官到檢察官律師在提醒你嚴重違反這個比例原則你都沒有聽進去嗎不要再大砲倒小鳥了來我們再看看以前的個案你從早上被問的同樣的案子以前為什麼沒有大搜索沒有大收押"},{"start":13838.4,"end":13858.112,"text":"韓國瑜一千多個案子喔我想這個不起訴所分是在你那個人已經理由說得非常的清楚非常的清楚來 法定 你說理由來我們看看呢 當初啊 綠營在高雄罷免高雄市長韓國瑜後來沒有起訴 高雄的地檢署的檢察官在那個起訴書那個不起訴裡面說什麼"},{"start":13859.502,"end":13886.43,"text":"他說在蒐集連署的過程裡面並沒有附議證系統等方式去核對跟比照身份證字號所以自毅然去驅使說你要發責有連署者是提議前就已經死亡的情形所以是被告等人根本就難以迎之刑死偽造文書罪當初這個檢察官是這樣提的這個理由現在存不存在"},{"start":13887.338,"end":13908.412,"text":"存在啊 再看看郭台銘 郭台銘更多耶郭台銘五千兩百七十一個 郭台銘監督在說他們比例比較低這個數目是這麼大耶這個案子 第一個 沒有大搜索 更沒有大收押後來約談了三個主要的幹部對不對約談完以後 今年三月份 聽各位喔上個月 這個剛剛簽結喔"},{"start":13911.916,"end":13932.548,"text":"這兩個案子都沒事 結果你現在不只有事 你還大收手大收押你是不是有嚴重違反法律的比例原則好來 再看下一個人們以下更生氣的是什麼你有很多大案子要辦 我剛才說的你還要去辦民進黨這個共諜案聯環報 這個不是影響更大第二個 打詐的案子啊今年三月份"},{"start":13937.233,"end":13958.71,"text":"台灣人民被騙了一萬六千多件損失的錢高達七十一億這每個案子可能都是破一個家庭甚至是幾個人可能會想不開的事情這多嚴重啊莫定我們不要講多啦你跟我我們如果被騙個十萬塊你可能還了幾十天一輩子搞不好都記得有些人是一輩子的居蓄關財本都不見了"},{"start":13960.046,"end":13988.199,"text":"整個可能都家破人亡了你們有好好去打仗嗎你多一點心思去辦這個事嘛不是 我現在跟你講是比較你現在花了那麼多的人力這個打仗本來就是我們現在整個辦單人員就全力在這打仗所以那個打仗的成果我要講一下檢察官跟警方非常的認真在辦這個很辛苦嘛可是第一個是所以你現在把人力你現在把人力 把減掉人力移出去搞"},{"start":13990.58,"end":14019.762,"text":"去搞這個偽造文書稅你這樣不是對不起你們檢察官記不起調查局的人員嗎抓重點做嘛 這個是不是更重要是不是 人民現在就是說我代表人民在問你你把打詐的事情做好不要把人力分出去做一些人民生氣的事情反正有任何的犯罪 犯罪嫌疑我想辦案人員都會都會積極的你的人力有限嘛 對不對輕重緩急嘛 你現在這個該重的地方不重 該輕的不輕這明確的話 你怎麼可以不辦呢"},{"start":14020.683,"end":14031.848,"text":"你有辦啊 所以第一個公平那第二個就是委婉比例原則嘛你把最終的事情多做才是重要的共諜案跟打詐來 最後我最後做一個最後做一個適合三個要求基於法律的平等原則不要雙標辦案不要讓人家覺得說案子碰到民進黨就轉彎了"},{"start":14041.038,"end":14062.177,"text":"所以請一座內你針對藍綠你在辦的狀況是怎麼樣給本席一個報告第二個依照比例原則你既然你在辦的這個偽造文書過往的人他這個連署請你把共諜案你們目前做到什麼程度也跟本席報告一下我現在不是只有本席要的全民現在盯著你們在看另外呢"},{"start":14063.26,"end":14086.985,"text":"各界現在在講 政府是濫用司法檢調的這個潛力 以大砲打小奶這個行徑我覺得不是只有對立法院負責你們應該公開開個記者會 也提出個說明以示眾議 不要讓你們基層的檢察官跟調查員接著說你們做長官的高高在上 聽不到基層的聲音也沒有去捍衛他們的這個形象一個禮拜都要一個公開說明 可以嗎"},{"start":14092.322,"end":14111.647,"text":"主席我要求這三個特別是第三項請給本席一個八卦然後你們對外要明確的說明好不好跟全民做一個交代就麻煩照剛委員所說的處理我們年紀都差不多啦台灣真的是在一個非常危險的狀況我們年輕的時候那麼辛辛苦苦建立的民主法治人權"},{"start":14113.339,"end":14122.162,"text":"那就趕快踩煞車 怎麼讓他回到一個公正公平好不好 那這我能了解的啦好 謝謝我們下一位請羅志強委員發言主席有請部長跟局長麻煩部長 局長"},{"start":14146.321,"end":14173.914,"text":"委員好部長 局長我剛剛跟我們齊凱委員不太一樣我是在這邊是要肯定你們我覺得我們的這個檢察官跟調查局武功學得很好我送你們幾句話武林至尊 綠色簡調清算天下 莫敢不從威風 先給你一個大大的讚肯定我先來請教一下"},{"start":14175.633,"end":14188.772,"text":"對付霸律你們的招數叫九陰白骨爪吹破首腦招招取命兇狠威風只要是敢霸民進黨的"},{"start":14190.293,"end":14216.872,"text":"你們查領銜人 抓領銜人 押領銜人查國民黨黨部 清算國民黨黨工通通抓 直接吹破首腦九陰白骨爪在你們檢調跟法務部的威風之下真的發揮的淋漓盡致啊我給你們大大按讚金庸的筆下 活靈活現就出了我們一個綠色檢調九陰白骨爪真的威風啊"},{"start":14218.015,"end":14239.517,"text":"可是我跟您講您威風的不只是九陰白骨爪您的乾坤大挪移也讓我嘆為觀止啊遇到罷免藍的有啦我也要平衡啦告訴大家說我沒有罷藍罷綠我都抓遇到罷免藍的到基隆去哇不一樣耶表面所謂的伴綠實際打藍"},{"start":14243.149,"end":14254.498,"text":"這個時候就不抓領銜人了啊這個時候就不去搜索民進黨的黨部啦跑去騷擾連署人大清早六點半去騷擾連署人太厲害了金庸都沒你厲害 太厲害了嫁禍林佩祥 市井領銜人因為 喔抱歉喔 那些連署人都被搜了"},{"start":14270.506,"end":14291.125,"text":"就告訴領銜人 資料該整理一下 要躲就躲我就問一下部長跟局長 奇怪為什麼遇到今天大藍的到基隆去的時候 忽然你就不收領銜人不押領銜人 不去查搜索民進黨的黨部了"},{"start":14292.434,"end":14318.656,"text":"這麼溫柔啊原來還有溫柔版的乾坤大挪移啊還是九陰白骨爪只是對著在野黨出啊部長 請問跟委員報告齁 因為我也不會介入個案齁那這個是個案這有檢察官跟整個指揮偵辦犯罪的這個這個我 我我不知道不介入好啦 你金庸第三大招出來叫一推二五六"},{"start":14320.231,"end":14338.208,"text":"前面不是振振有詞跟我們的張祺凱辯論為什麼我現在問到你就答不出來了是偵查中的案件我沒辦法去問是啦是啦萬用符保生符好啦沒關係通你疑問三不知通通推個案介入到個案的一個處理"},{"start":14339.848,"end":14363.814,"text":"所以我不會去處理各位個案來來來 局長來你也不會幹 我幫你先回答了不介入個案 對不對是感謝您一問三不失雙人組加上剪掉的所謂腳印白骨爪配上乾坤大挪移威風凌厲啦威風凌厲啦當國人都傻瓜嗎 看不出來嗎"},{"start":14366.547,"end":14386.805,"text":"都看不出來嗎是 我想國人應該看得到死亡連署的狀況有啊有啊你有沒有辦基隆有沒有辦基隆剛剛不是拿基隆做例子說不要說我們辦藍不辦綠基隆我們辦啦對啊我們辦了基隆你又說我們太早出門股長 朝棧太早出門太早出門查連署人"},{"start":14388.326,"end":14403.715,"text":"你另外太早出門去抓領銜人 搜索羈押推給檢察官好棒棒的時候 就是你們今天沒有差別待遇差別待遇說推給檢察官 說檢察官自己來決定我跟你講 你今天只辦藍不辦綠 我們是痛心"},{"start":14412.622,"end":14423.468,"text":"你結果今天為了要假裝你藍綠都辦你搞一個樣板叫基隆結果目的是赤裸裸去嫁禍林佩祥很多人在罵林佩祥啦"},{"start":14424.938,"end":14442.325,"text":"林佩祥好恐怖喔 還可以騷擾今天連署人家裡林佩祥多冤 他指揮得了你檢調嗎 請問林佩祥指揮得了檢調嗎 鄭總回答得出來嗎我可以回應你的質問嗎來 我問你的問題 林佩祥指揮得了檢調嗎我想我們這個罷免的連署案 其實"},{"start":14446.167,"end":14474.962,"text":"我們今天要抓的一個重點就是有沒有影響到我們選舉罷免的公平性這對我們國家來來來基隆有沒有影響到選舉罷免的公平性這對我們國家來講是非常非常重要的好啦好啦好啦我沒有在跟你講抓我還沒跟你講抓不抓的問題我講的是抓要不要公平啊你當然就問你嘛今天基隆基隆來來對一定會公平的一定會公平一定公平啊好公平啊九英白五爪對乾坤大龍你這超公平的一定非常公平啊"},{"start":14477.298,"end":14491.535,"text":"不要當大家是瞎子 真的 我就直接問你嘛來來來 你的法學素養深厚 兩位齁民主國家齁 有哪個民主國家司法檢調大舉搜索最大在野黨黨部的"},{"start":14492.489,"end":14509.939,"text":"其實這個問題其實不需要法學素養很深厚啦現在就是說偽造文書到底是不是犯罪來啦來啦我去問你嘛國際通歷不用法學素養很深厚你就那麼猛為什麼會偽造文書是不是犯罪啊不是迫害沒有來回答我啊有沒有哪個民主國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部的"},{"start":14510.859,"end":14528.718,"text":"搜索需要法官核發的令狀不是說我們要搜索就能夠搜索你們檢察官有沒有申請申請也要提出證據啊我告訴你司法綁在一起我現在講的是檢察官是你到現在不敢回答我因為就是沒有有啦 我錯了 我投降有啦 希特勒有啦沒有啊 我有回答希特勒有"},{"start":14531.58,"end":14548.293,"text":"這個我有回答你啊我告訴你啊 你回答我什麼哪個國家的名字給我聽 德國嗎哪個國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部嘛好啦 你要跟我鬼打牆金庸第四招 心血的功夫叫鬼打牆 我也佩服你"},{"start":14549.494,"end":14568.645,"text":"交給社會公平 我回答問你哪個國家到現在一個字都吐不出來 一個國家你都吐不出來鬼打牆 你逃避問題沒關係 我告訴你很簡單大法官說你可以逃避問題啊 說謊都無罪啊我剛剛已經跟我們部長多次交流這件事情今天我們在這邊 隨便你們怎麼講來 沒關係 我來告訴你我現在問你下一個問題這件事啊 你們扯到什麼地步"},{"start":14578.527,"end":14588.57,"text":"啊 扯到什麼地步共諜案 盛楚英 20萬交保我的辦公室主任 陳冠安 也是20萬交保你們用什麼罪去偵辦他 20萬交保偽造文書嘛"},{"start":14597.014,"end":14606.959,"text":"是不是這個我們尊重這個不是我們的權責我沒有問你權責問題我們尊重檢察官跟法官來來來 部長部長請問用什麼罪用什麼案子用什麼罪名加20萬交保這個涉嫌各司法41條跟刑法210條你看嘛 局長還有那個選罷法98條局長"},{"start":14627.472,"end":14643.204,"text":"局長 人家部長就沒個案 你就個案 學一下沒有 我肯定啊 部長你緊張什麼對嘛好啦好啦 部長我肯定你啦沒關係啦 我肯定你啦來來來 我肯定你都不行 我否定你才高興公然打臉我們調查局局長 謝謝你他個案咧 你狀況外就不要推個案來我想請教你下一個問題啊我告訴你啊 很抱歉 很抱歉"},{"start":14657.864,"end":14665.85,"text":"如果今天陳觀安從頭到尾沒有涉入你講的那個選罷法的所謂偽造連署也好 瑕疵連署也好 死人連署也好請問你們檢方在做這事有沒有涉及濫權啊為什麼要涉及濫權 我告訴你為什麼要這樣問這個怎麼會涉及 這是依法偵辦怎麼會涉及濫權依法偵辦啊 謝謝你來 我告訴你 別人我不敢講"},{"start":14687.472,"end":14696.439,"text":"別人我不敢講陳冠安當時罷免雙無的團體希望他站出來來幫忙發聲他有跑來跟我報告我問了他一句話 你有沒有參與連署 會不會參與連署他說不會 他不參與連署只是站出來講話我跟你賭啦"},{"start":14716.516,"end":14737.086,"text":"他沒有涉及任何瑕疵連署跟你所謂死亡連署偽造文書啦我保證沒有啦這個我在這邊我不談個案了隨便你啦我不談個案我告訴你 你那千變萬化功很厲害啦對到你今天想答的問題你就沒有個案問題對到你不想答的問題你就個案問題我知道啦 部長你現在的習慣是如此啦我又不是不認識你但我要告訴你啊陳關就是沒有涉入啦"},{"start":14744.195,"end":14755.468,"text":"但是為什麼今天要20萬交保 我跟你講你們陽謀是什麼啦就扣他手機嘛 扣他電腦 手機電腦有沒有扣有沒有扣 不清楚啊 就扣了啦辦公室我的資料有沒有收進去 就收了啦"},{"start":14764.551,"end":14780.171,"text":"我告訴你我給你一個建議真的拜託你請問我辦公室所有跟陳觀安以及陳觀安參與我辦公室各項群組乃至於陳觀安我們一起在揭弊所集合的群組裡面的所有訊息請問有沒有匯報給我們賴清德總統啊"},{"start":14784.728,"end":14807.04,"text":"這個怎麼可能呢?當然嘛 你一定說不可能 我知道 我做球給你啊我都沒辦法去做我做球給你 我就等你否認嘛那你就否認完就好啦我告訴你 獅子賴清德總統今天等著看我羅志強辦公室透明化啦我也直接跟你講 我跟部長講 跟局長講趕快來搜我"},{"start":14810.649,"end":14831.206,"text":"趕快來搜我 我敞開大門 歡迎你們我做好進去的準備了啦我還不懂你們在幹什麼一從頭到尾搜索陳冠恩 相專無間 志在志強啦他根本沒有任何事 沒有犯任何一點法我吱吱聲響就是因為我還真的問過他有沒有去參與連署工作他說沒有"},{"start":14839.318,"end":14863.598,"text":"只是他們希望他來幫忙講話幫忙講話20萬交保共諜案20萬交保搞了半天幫忙監督民進黨的罪責難是跟共諜案一樣啊部長我跟你講 局長跟你講將心比心啊我今天的感受 請你體諒一下你的辦公室主任被這樣對待我看你要不要站出來講話就是這樣子啊"},{"start":14868.832,"end":14898.137,"text":"所以我今天說一句實在話今天我們看到你那麼多的一些所謂辯詞 誓詞人民眼睛不瞎啦我在這邊呼籲全台灣人民司法檢調淪落到跟希特勒一樣的時候我告訴你今天封陳冠安的口明天查羅志強的帳後天割台灣人民的喉"},{"start":14899.228,"end":14920.568,"text":"4月29號 拜託大家上街頭真的拜託大家上街頭我今天看到就是這個樣子謝謝下一位我們請馬文君委員 馬文君委員 馬文君委員那個羅委員 羅委員 羅委員"},{"start":14926.324,"end":14943.714,"text":"我們接下來就麻煩羅委員代理主席有請吳宗憲委員我們麻煩部長、局長還有署長部長、局長、署長有請"},{"start":14954.205,"end":14979.28,"text":"委員好謝謝三位 三位午安其實我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是"},{"start":14982.242,"end":15003.489,"text":"並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人"},{"start":15005.009,"end":15032.46,"text":"他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道"},{"start":15033.32,"end":15052.212,"text":"你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的"},{"start":15053.547,"end":15082.703,"text":"如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡 搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些 還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊"},{"start":15083.303,"end":15104.334,"text":"因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面"},{"start":15105.214,"end":15132.422,"text":"如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站"},{"start":15133.982,"end":15153.443,"text":"有人去罷免了現場叫某一個某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼"},{"start":15154.364,"end":15170.325,"text":"那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊"},{"start":15171.526,"end":15191.367,"text":"叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來假裝G票出來那你民眾就知道跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走"},{"start":15192.586,"end":15220.051,"text":"這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以部分媒體報導的訊息更是"},{"start":15221.912,"end":15239.094,"text":"我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理"},{"start":15239.494,"end":15258.772,"text":"那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好 謝謝部長好 那"},{"start":15259.861,"end":15288.494,"text":"我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等這個但是呢我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做"},{"start":15289.905,"end":15307.767,"text":"但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導"},{"start":15308.428,"end":15333.655,"text":"那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關去處理那因為主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":15337.015,"end":15356.801,"text":"因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有沒有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理"},{"start":15358.191,"end":15378.227,"text":"原則屬沒有碰這一塊好 謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊 盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係"},{"start":15383.231,"end":15405.505,"text":"那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人像我行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說這個人只是安排行程的啦不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程"},{"start":15405.965,"end":15428.927,"text":"所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的"},{"start":15429.628,"end":15447.496,"text":"的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好 謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下"},{"start":15453.938,"end":15475.503,"text":"這個數據之外 那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件 還起訴幾件 跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做的我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是 好 那今天沒準備沒關係 那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢 我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件"},{"start":15476.423,"end":15499.249,"text":"那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣就是說"},{"start":15501.84,"end":15524.998,"text":"反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的"},{"start":15525.658,"end":15540.327,"text":"但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴"},{"start":15542.688,"end":15558.183,"text":"到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼"},{"start":15558.963,"end":15572.995,"text":"變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問"},{"start":15574.116,"end":15603.158,"text":"這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事"},{"start":15604.059,"end":15618.216,"text":"你們要起訴他 判有罪 我都覺得應該而且這些人就給他死 就是給他從眾處理我都贊成 我都支持 因為他叛國 他對不起我們台灣人但是呢 問題是今天的法律設計"},{"start":15619.997,"end":15640.446,"text":"他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個 因為"},{"start":15641.847,"end":15660.849,"text":"我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪"},{"start":15661.469,"end":15675.919,"text":"結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎"},{"start":15677.83,"end":15696.167,"text":"因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了"},{"start":15697.248,"end":15720.534,"text":"另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是"},{"start":15721.754,"end":15746.981,"text":"鄉下的老人家這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的那難道是因為績效嗎因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候一個是打字另外一個問嘛後來我們發現還有"},{"start":15749.424,"end":15778.46,"text":"問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分人一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案好那"},{"start":15779.681,"end":15803.596,"text":"再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬效應很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙"},{"start":15804.156,"end":15810.706,"text":"然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子"},{"start":15812.13,"end":15839.565,"text":"那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的還起訴換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題"},{"start":15841.286,"end":15854.043,"text":"如果有一些陪著你們所謂祖賢 祖謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都還起訴了結果後來祖賢因為證據不足判無罪"},{"start":15855.202,"end":15874.338,"text":"那這樣怎麼辦那這些被騙被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理法務部有沒有思考這個問題或調局有沒有思考這個問題報告委員那個你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個一個太樣"},{"start":15875.519,"end":15888.912,"text":"所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴這個案子就是在選舉前的那"},{"start":15893.957,"end":15909.508,"text":"這個案子因為現在一般這種這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對這案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來"},{"start":15910.769,"end":15937.919,"text":"我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來好那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人"},{"start":15939.52,"end":15960.456,"text":"判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子然後第二個就是我剛剛提到的詢問時候的方式"},{"start":15961.517,"end":15982.691,"text":"用騙的 用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說 除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷除非像這樣子啦 那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光"},{"start":15984.605,"end":16006.007,"text":"那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法定的程序再包括部長這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論割愛"},{"start":16007.745,"end":16030.88,"text":"你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那部長"},{"start":16032.393,"end":16041.248,"text":"我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣"},{"start":16043.138,"end":16061.897,"text":"這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點"},{"start":16064.6,"end":16082.668,"text":"好啦 最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦 司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的"},{"start":16083.852,"end":16095.678,"text":"國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位"},{"start":16114.329,"end":16132.199,"text":"好 不好意思 謝謝莊銳雄委員 請多擔待謝謝張委員 有請我們法務部部長還有剛剛還有一個廖先祥 廖先祥 廖先祥接下來我們請莊銳雄委員發言法務部部長 還有我們大局局長"},{"start":16138.184,"end":16166.821,"text":"國務委員好部長還有局長我覺得剛剛吳委員 吳昭偉在質詢的時候你們都答得不好都答得不好你要想 壓倒要撲人刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒心連三撲五個任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊 三百三十九條"},{"start":16169.721,"end":16186.941,"text":"五年以下有期徒刑我都說五年以下的連署騙五天騙十天承辦一年我們押不押社會有壓力同樣啊210條偽造私文書啊大量在連署造假死亡連署這個也是五年以下集團性的"},{"start":16187.722,"end":16198.628,"text":"你說同樣的一個罪責 你就叫檢察官說 求你講的 都放 甚至有人講說哎喲 這個比例原則啦 甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的一個空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊 所以你們解釋得不好 兩位都請回 不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":16217.731,"end":16247.074,"text":"好 委員好我想來請 還有我們 呃 還有我還不敢問副秘書長 國安部我們今天政治專案局保安保防安全處處長也有到嘛 齁國安部 還有我們 還有軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長請你們上來不是刁難你們啦 是因為剛好呃 我其實在上禮拜啊 請教過我們司法院啦這整個國安案件的一個審理啊 這個部分啊我 因為"},{"start":16248.001,"end":16272.298,"text":"我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上個禮拜去考察我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱"},{"start":16275.02,"end":16289.372,"text":"那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說"},{"start":16290.593,"end":16315.283,"text":"都已經把機密交給敵人了 怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講 他會認為你這個洩密的文件 你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件 那就很麻煩了那所以呢 法官審理的時候 必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是 國防部說 回給法院說 這是一般文件而已"},{"start":16315.804,"end":16318.973,"text":"可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪"},{"start":16324.909,"end":16345.747,"text":"很合理啊 如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊 看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛 府民司法沒有公開審理那所以呢 也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差"},{"start":16346.528,"end":16356.536,"text":"那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境"},{"start":16375.285,"end":16393.962,"text":"跟過去整個軍事審判 軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長"},{"start":16395.336,"end":16424.537,"text":"好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢"},{"start":16424.957,"end":16452.819,"text":"他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他那個保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的"},{"start":16453.379,"end":16475.84,"text":"那有在那個 就是個案中呢 也有發生過 就是說因為偵查的時候 如果你羈押人的時候 他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間 就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢 這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候 就起訴來了"},{"start":16476.801,"end":16499.44,"text":"那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這一個個案呢他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況呢他就會涉及到了"},{"start":16500,"end":16512.613,"text":"就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況"},{"start":16516.036,"end":16540.351,"text":"就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素嘛那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件"},{"start":16541.152,"end":16544.054,"text":"所以問題就來了我們列席所有的單位"},{"start":16571.992,"end":16595.485,"text":"你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說"},{"start":16597.267,"end":16626.613,"text":"一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法人員上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎"},{"start":16628.322,"end":16632.448,"text":"你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊"},{"start":16633.206,"end":16659.792,"text":"那你這到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎 請說明委員好 我是國安部法律司法律基調處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強"},{"start":16660.672,"end":16688.601,"text":"那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說比如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年吧對不對"},{"start":16690.615,"end":16718.562,"text":"那你法官是有終身保障咧?其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦"},{"start":16719.122,"end":16722.605,"text":"那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階 這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性"},{"start":16734.535,"end":16754.406,"text":"這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方這個我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足"},{"start":16755.166,"end":16778.519,"text":"制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計"},{"start":16780.16,"end":16797.051,"text":"但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件"},{"start":16798.864,"end":16825.315,"text":"居士案件都有協助所以嘛所以嘛畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則"},{"start":16827.416,"end":16848.697,"text":"涉及到一個判決啊那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部啊或者說法務部啊或者相關的一個單位啊大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好 謝謝"},{"start":16853.818,"end":16872.616,"text":"好 謝謝所有發言 登記發言委員都已經發言完畢那詢問結束我這邊還要請法務部跟會同調局一個月內要給我這邊一個報告就是2023年到2024年立委大選期間違反選罷法還有反滲透法"},{"start":16878.248,"end":16906.225,"text":"就是裡面這些案子中有牽結不起訴還有還起訴的件數還起訴處分的件數已經職權送在意的案件數還有整理判決無罪的理由因為這個東西對我們將來有關反滲透法的偵辦還有法律問題將來是否要修法我覺得這個很重要所以麻煩一下法務部跟"},{"start":16907.388,"end":16908.396,"text":"教育局能夠"},{"start":16910.109,"end":16937.56,"text":"在一個月內給我一份這個報告因為我從目前我手上看到的數據來看有關反滲透法他的簽結不起訴他的比例真的非常高也就是說他最後判一審有罪的其實比例已經很低最後確定會判有罪的我還不知道會到多低那這個可能是有才能夠有利於我們將來對於反滲透法我們希望他怎麼樣把它精緻化好謝謝各位"},{"start":16939.844,"end":16960.92,"text":"那委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或是以書面答覆請相關資料請速送交個別委員還有本會委員翁曉琳陳冠廷所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆那本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":16966.368,"end":16967.27,"text":"好 今天不打工"},{"start":16998.527,"end":16999.548,"text":"谢谢 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"160430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c897e751135d0e27f2d5119736a8127fe7d42ed77fd6a325e1e339ddae18a2dfb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:43:54 - 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謝謝"},{"start":13.407,"end":33.482,"text":"好 先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到"},{"start":34.042,"end":49.998,"text":"所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會"},{"start":51.219,"end":56.401,"text":"那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責"},{"start":80.352,"end":94,"text":"王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會報告所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟"},{"start":108.689,"end":110.809,"text":"我們的調查局局長好 部長 局長在上週 其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場 吳思堯委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部"},{"start":136.155,"end":148.666,"text":"那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來"},{"start":152.609,"end":178.921,"text":"因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公"},{"start":180.422,"end":204.058,"text":"結果在當天搜索的時候 竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長 他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室 而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機 滑了三四個小時"},{"start":205.509,"end":217.735,"text":"我想請問 如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下 跟中山大同黨不何干"},{"start":219.06,"end":235.229,"text":"為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊"},{"start":245.256,"end":269.589,"text":"然後我也是被罷免的對象所以我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼"},{"start":274.963,"end":295.133,"text":"中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩義嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長 局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎 依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告齁"},{"start":301.525,"end":326.418,"text":"搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這一共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎"},{"start":327.739,"end":332.104,"text":"可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔"},{"start":338.634,"end":363.987,"text":"這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要別人我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎"},{"start":366.735,"end":370.5,"text":"我直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是"},{"start":382.045,"end":406.773,"text":"依法來處理的 還叫依法處理 依法到這種地步 依法來打擊陣敵嗎而且跟委員報告 我對各案的說索票 可是你說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機讓他看手機的內容嗎 可不可以 可不可以 來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛 那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部 沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎 那是一個統一訴訟 它是以訴索嘛"},{"start":412.267,"end":434.473,"text":"可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以那這有沒有濫權問題 有沒有"},{"start":439.634,"end":465.809,"text":"既然法官都核准搜索票可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以 按照你這樣講可以嗎"},{"start":467.518,"end":483.834,"text":"這個是個案我不表示意見 那我想 我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎 好 再來看好 再來看 我跟你講 你們這一陣子無法無天來 在高雄 高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站 要求把現場工作人員帶走"},{"start":490.66,"end":510.34,"text":"然後要求 就說 你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走好 請問一下 這個是合法的執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票 去連署站 要求把人帶走 可以嗎"},{"start":513.197,"end":531.346,"text":"這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太"},{"start":533.487,"end":559.504,"text":"重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有"},{"start":562.006,"end":569.374,"text":"還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢 跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎 跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來"},{"start":582.967,"end":588.892,"text":"這不叫司法干預 什麼叫做司法干預再來 我們在網路上也流傳影片齁然後這個 霸雙節的 在高雄霸來來 把這個影片放一下"},{"start":598.44,"end":621.392,"text":"政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好 你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下"},{"start":625.194,"end":626.855,"text":"罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬 你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦"},{"start":642.145,"end":661.394,"text":"我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就是刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪"},{"start":669.861,"end":679.886,"text":"五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛不一罪一罰啊那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長講成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來"},{"start":690.43,"end":713.663,"text":"中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好 你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好 你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦"},{"start":716.104,"end":732.369,"text":"按鈴 按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎"},{"start":736.153,"end":740.295,"text":"這個是一個個案執行的一個 又來個案了齁 對啊 又來個案 每個都是個案了 這個合法的嘛 部長 這個是 這個是 投法你以前怎麼不辦啊投法你以前有辦嗎 你還好意思在這邊 你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦 來 再來看再來看 我跟你講 你們哪選擇性辦辦在這邊"},{"start":759.103,"end":760.765,"text":"韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了"},{"start":779.994,"end":781.375,"text":"有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談"},{"start":798.011,"end":803.192,"text":"有沒有搜索 有沒有生壓 有沒有嘛通通是按照委書或文書辦嘛還有個資嘛 涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣 當然不一樣 報名 韓國瑜不用不用搜索 不用約談 不用生壓 不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人 哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴 哪一個被生壓來 你告訴我"},{"start":825.716,"end":852.456,"text":"這個個案我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了 沒有辦嘛而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的 而且要起訴後來呢 這個檢察長不願意辦而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後 才不起訴這也是個案喔按照部長的說法也是個案喔"},{"start":853.317,"end":859.76,"text":"不會辦 不能辦 不敢辦好 你以為只有這一個嗎 再來再來怎麼會不同呢 一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同 部長 你在這邊凹吧 說謊吧哪有什麼不同 他是不是用偽造文書來辦 是不是"},{"start":876.81,"end":887.534,"text":"這是兩個不同的案件當然一個罷免韓國瑜 一個罷免吳思堯啊不一樣啊 真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊 給他辦到死啊好 再來連署 除了罷免之外總統 副總統選舉 如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍 也需要連署好 5271名死人"},{"start":905.083,"end":916.112,"text":"連署 這個呢 這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個 你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下 5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎"},{"start":928.76,"end":953.26,"text":"2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就偵辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有不一樣有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有"},{"start":958.487,"end":964.536,"text":"我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊 有沒有"},{"start":965.774,"end":971.577,"text":"每個個案是不一樣 為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣 半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結 雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發"},{"start":989.304,"end":1007.846,"text":"但是呢沒有第一個沒有登門去按門鈴沒有去約談沒有去搜索沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以你的最後的結論是什麼我告訴大家那個就叫做選擇性辦案"},{"start":1009.69,"end":1024.022,"text":"那個就叫做 雙標辦案 那個就叫做 辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做 依照上意來辦案 不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦 這個證據嘛那部長你為什麼 你說 我當時沒有當部長 當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶 為什麼你一個都沒有約談"},{"start":1033.911,"end":1054.065,"text":"蛤 你也不敢批評啊 對不對 OK啊 那個個案呢所以 我直接說 你們現在 所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案 為什麼同樣的個案我問你 大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦 是不是"},{"start":1056.271,"end":1081.805,"text":"他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題"},{"start":1083.566,"end":1109.178,"text":"現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正"},{"start":1110.439,"end":1125.856,"text":"局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦"},{"start":1127.615,"end":1149.702,"text":"這不叫做 這個 我真的想請問 民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機 他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛"},{"start":1150.984,"end":1161.906,"text":"他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛 對付我王宏威嗎"},{"start":1163.462,"end":1181.857,"text":"對不對 我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投 在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係"},{"start":1183.311,"end":1201.119,"text":"你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來 局長你告訴我為什麼 憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走"},{"start":1213.345,"end":1219.994,"text":"因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了 又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情"},{"start":1226.929,"end":1244.97,"text":"你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這什麼叫依法偵辦 依什麼法 依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案 辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係"},{"start":1246.411,"end":1252.313,"text":"什麼叫依法偵辦來 部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法"},{"start":1274.437,"end":1292.25,"text":"以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以這是個案的又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊"},{"start":1304.295,"end":1310.766,"text":"在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時44分）先就剛才主席所公布的事項，感謝主席還有議事人員，把之前有關國安會或國安會秘書長，有沒有到立法院來備詢查得非常清楚，應該已經讓司法及法制委員會的委員都充分理解，所以依照今天的狀況，即使沒有派人來，竟然完全沒有請假的動作，這是完全的漠視，事實上，也極為不尊重立法院以及司法及法制委員會，我覺得確實應該予以譴責，也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員，加上過去確實有案例，這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政，過去的民進黨政府可以對立法院、對委員會有一個基本的尊重，但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有！連請假都沒有！我覺得這個部分確實應該予以譴責！"],["主席：我跟王委員報告一下，在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候，他都會請假，所以我們會再跟國安會溝通一下。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯，所以請問一下，顧立雄可以，為什麼吳釗燮不可以？吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎？還是他心虛不敢來，也不做請假？好，謝謝我們主席的說明。","主席，我先請我們的法務部長跟調查局局長。"],["主席：麻煩請部長及調查局局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、局長，上週震驚全社會的就是有關於因為要偵查罷免案，包含其中一個當事人也有在現場，就是吳思瑤委員，還有吳沛憶委員，因此來搜索國民黨臺北市黨部，這部分剛才部長說是依法來做，但是我想請教部長跟局長，在你們辦案的過程裡面，有沒有司法濫權的問題？有沒有打擊政敵的問題？因為我們臺北市黨部是在臺北市長春路、中山區，正好是在本人的選區，結果在整個搜索過程裡面，在長春路同一棟大樓裡面，除了臺北市黨部，也有我們中山、大同區黨部在那邊辦公，而且它是分開辦公，非常明確的分開辦公，結果當天在搜索的時候，竟然我們中山、大同區黨部的負責人，我們稱他是執行長，他一樣被搜索，不但被搜索整個辦公室，還要求交出手機，然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機滑了三、四個小時。","我想請問，如果今天罷免吳思瑤是在士林、北投區；罷免吳沛憶是中正、萬華區，請問一下跟中山、大同區黨部何干？為什麼可以去搜索中山、大同區黨部的辦公室？為什麼可以要求他交出手機，在那邊滑了三、四個小時，然後再把這個手機交回給我們區黨部的執行長，請問一下有何干係？而且這個干係是什麼呢？本人的選區正好是中山區，我也是被罷免的對象，所以我們整個中山區認為，假所謂的搜索臺北市黨部之名，把根本不相關的中山、大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番；而且更過分的是，最後還把中山、大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走，拿中山、大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼？中山、大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎？可以罷免吳沛憶嗎？請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料？部長、局長，這個是合理的程序嗎？這有在依法行政嗎？有在依法搜索嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，搜索一定是令狀主義，一定要法官核票、核准搜索票上的這些處所跟對象。"],["王委員鴻薇：這一共是有4個行政區，而中山、大同區跟這兩個區域完全沒有關係，為什麼他的手機可以被搜索？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有沒有關係是個案的判斷、認定，這部分因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：可以這樣認定嗎？可以這樣認定嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我不能去干涉……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣是不是所有各縣市你通通都可以搜索了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法院核票的喔！這是有令狀的喔！不是我們檢調人員要去哪裡搜就去哪裡搜！"],["王委員鴻薇：他到那邊搜，明知那是中山、大同區黨部；明知它的業務跟那個沒有相關，他的手機可以被搜索？我想請問一下部長、局長，比方說我正好在那邊辦公，可是我跟這一些業務完全沒有關係，你可以要求我交出手機嗎？你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎？我直接說，這個黨部主委他只有輔選我的資料。請問一下，這跟罷免吳思瑤、跟罷免吳沛憶有什麼關係？你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是依法來處理的。"],["王委員鴻薇：還叫依法處理？可以依法到這種地步！可以依法來打擊政敵嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法官發出的搜索票，而且跟委員報告，我對個案並不清楚……"],["王委員鴻薇：我問你，搜索票可以要求現場的人交出手機，讓他看手機的內容嗎？可不可以？告訴我！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是要個案來認定，就是要有法院的搜索票。"],["王委員鴻薇：法院的搜索票沒有包含中山區黨部，沒有包含大同區黨部啊！可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是同一處所，是以處所來判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：但那是不同辦公嘛！你知道現在有很多的共享辦公室嗎？多的咧！你知道民間有多少共享辦公室？可能A、B、C、D、E公司都共享一個辦公室，若你搜索那個辦公室，要辦A公司，你可以要B公司、C公司的人員把他的資料交出來、把他的手機交出來，可不可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依搜索票所載，而搜索票怎麼記載……"],["王委員鴻薇：這有沒有濫權問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：既然法官都核准搜索票，有可以搜索的處所及範圍那個沒有濫權啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以部長告訴我，今天你要辦士林、北投區的罷免案；辦中正、萬華區的罷免案，但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山、大同區的黨部，可以要求黨部負責人交出手機，可以直接帶走中山、大同區黨部的名冊，你告訴我可不可以？按照你這樣講，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案，我不表示意見，我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索。"],["王委員鴻薇：有在依法嗎？好，我跟你講，你們這一陣子是無法無天！","再來看下一個，在高雄，穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員，到了鳳山工協市場連署站，要求把現場工作人員帶走，然後問他有沒有搜索票？沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走，沒有拿搜索票就要把人帶走，請問一下，這個是合法的執法程序嗎？沒有拿搜索票可以去連署站並要求把人帶走，可以嗎？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我想委員提到的是媒體的報導，現場的狀況當天檢察官也有聲明，事實的狀況是去找這個受搜索人，而他已經聯絡他的太太，他說他太太在那個連署站，所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太……"],["王委員鴻薇：他拿了搜索票嗎？重點是他拿了搜索票嗎？"],["陳局長白立：有搜索票，這個受搜索人已經同意到他家去搜索，但是鑰匙在他太太身上，他太太當時在連署站……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以他就可以把受搜索人的太太帶走？"],["陳局長白立：沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：他太太是受搜索人嗎？"],["陳局長白立：受搜索人說，去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門。這是受搜索人同意的，我們的同仁只是到那個連署站……"],["王委員鴻薇：受搜索人可以同意把他太太帶走嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有說要把他太太帶走。"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，還有人跟我反映，他們在現場本來要去連署，結果調查人員跟他說：你下午再來！下午再來！有這樣子嗎？跑到人家的連署站，要求帶人走，然後對要去連署的人說：你下午再來。這不叫司法干預，什麼叫做司法干預？"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有要到連署站帶人走的狀況。"],["王委員鴻薇：再來，網路上也流傳一個影片，就是高雄雙罷劫的影片，來，把這個影片放一下。","（播放影片）"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後，直接被壓在地上，有壓制這樣一個動作。我想請問一下，罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯，要在現場直接銬手銬，抓著他的腰帶，然後抓進去之後，直接被壓制在地上摩擦？現在是怎麼樣？司法可以惡劣到這種地步嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法是公正的，司法絕對不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下他犯了什麼罪？他犯了什麼罪？來，部長說，他犯了什麼罪？被戴了手銬，然後進去直接被壓制在地上。"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是刑法偽造文書罪跟……"],["王委員鴻薇：就是偽造文書罪嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有個資法嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊，偽造文書罪、個資法，偽造文書罪是不是重罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：五年以下。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，五年以下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且一罪一罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：要一罪一罰啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，本來就一罪一罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你要用一罪一罰，所以你又在嚇唬人……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有嚇唬人，這是法律規定的，委員，這是法律……"],["王委員鴻薇：你要一罪一罰嘛，我待會給你看，我待會給你看，好，既然部長講成這樣，你這個嘴臉還這樣，來、來、來、來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這個徐尚賢被聲押，所以我說他這有違法逮捕或……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們再來看，一罪一罰，太好了，中選會告發罷免林沛祥有116件的連署是涉嫌偽造案，你們也有辦，因為大家現在都說怎麼辦藍不辦綠呢？好，你要辦綠啊，可是很奇怪喔，你辦綠不是說去辦他們的罷團，也不是去辦領銜人，也不是去辦幹部，直接一大早6點半按門鈴叫人家開門，這是連署人，請問一下以前有這樣的辦法嗎？以前有這樣直接去找連署人，6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免，有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個個案執行的……"],["王委員鴻薇：又來個案了喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊。"],["王委員鴻薇：又來個案，每個都是個案嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是合法的嘛……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，合法你以前怎麼不辦啊？合法你以前有辦嗎？你還好意思在這邊……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我怎麼……"],["王委員鴻薇：你還好意思在這邊講？怎麼不辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來有犯罪嫌疑，本來就是要偵辦嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：再來看，再來看，我跟你講，你們選擇性辦案，在這邊還可以大言不慚……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有選擇性辦案，我們是客觀公正，抱持毋枉毋縱的態度來偵辦，絕對沒有什麼選擇性辦案。"],["王委員鴻薇：韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署、有沒有偽造連署？有沒有？韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署、有沒有偽造連署？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分檢察官就已經釐清了。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有？我問你有沒有啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是有連署人後來發生死亡的情形。"],["王委員鴻薇：有嘛，好，請問你辦了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有分案偵辦，這個案件有辦啊。"],["王委員鴻薇：有辦了，不起訴嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不就辦了然後釐清了嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問你一下，有沒有約談、有沒有搜索、有沒有聲押？有沒有嘛？通通是按照偽造文書還有涉及違反個資法辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件的情形都不一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：不一樣，當然不一樣，罷免韓國瑜不用搜索、不用約談、不用聲押，不一樣啊！請問一下一千三百多個人哪一個被搜索、哪一個被按門鈴、哪一個被聲押？來，你告訴我，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這種個案我不清楚……"],["王委員鴻薇：你又不清楚了，沒有辦嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我不會指導，我不會干涉指導，因為這是個案嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有辦，而且我直接告訴你，當時高檢署的檢察長被爆料，其實當時的檢察官是要辦的，而且要起訴，後來檢察長不願意辦，甚至中間還去換檢察官，換了另外一個檢察官之後才不起訴，這也是個案喔！按照部長的說法，也是個案喔，不會辦、不能辦、不敢辦，好，你以為只有這一個嗎？再來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，這件是妨害名譽案件，跟偽造文書，這是兩個不同的案件嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會不同呢？一樣是有偽造連署啊，有什麼不同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個妨害名譽的案件啊。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你在這邊拗吧、說謊吧，哪有什麼不同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在拗啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：他是不是用偽造文書來辦，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是兩個不同的案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：有什麼不同？一個罷免韓國瑜、一個罷免吳思瑤啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個偵辦的是不一樣的檢察官。"],["王委員鴻薇：不一樣啊，真不一樣，韓國瑜的就不要約談、不能辦啊，罷免吳思瑤就給他辦到死啦。","再來，連署，除了罷免之外，總統、副總統選舉，如果你是無黨籍也需要連署，5,271名死人連署，這個其實是中選會告發的，中選會在之後告發5,271個，你說什麼在韓國瑜之前，那麼請問一下，5,271名偽造連署有辦嗎？2023年的選舉，有辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個檢察官不就偵辦了，有釐清嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：全部簽結，好，我問你，有沒有6點半按鈴去詢問，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：又個案，好。來，我再問你，有沒有約談？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件有不同的……有的有約談、有的沒約談。"],["王委員鴻薇：又不一樣，不一樣、不一樣，對，個案都不一樣。再問你有沒有搜索、有沒有帶走名冊，有沒有？欸，我這邊罷吳思瑤帶走我中山區的黨員名冊欸！我請問你有沒有帶走名冊，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：又是不一樣、不一樣，不一樣，好……"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的證據的……"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼呢？因為罷韓國瑜不一樣，罷郭台銘也不一樣啊，因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉，郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊，因為他才會分國民黨的票啊，所以最後全部簽結，雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發，但是第一個，沒有登門去按門鈴、沒有去約談、沒有去搜索、沒有去聲押，這就是部長口中所謂的個案，所以你最後的結論是什麼？我告訴大家，那個就叫做選擇性辦案，那個就叫做雙標辦案，那個就叫做辦藍不辦綠辦案，這就叫做依照上意來辦案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：不叫做個案啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有這回事啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼沒有這回事，這證據嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個證據……"],["王委員鴻薇：郭台銘為什麼……那部長為什麼你說：欸，我當時沒有當部長，當時的部長真是莫名其妙，五千多個人耶，為什麼你一個都沒有約談？啊？你也不敢批評啊！對不對？OK啊！那個個案啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會去介入指導個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我直接說，你們現在……所以部長，你還好意思在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案，為什麼同樣的個案，我問你大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦？是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：對嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛！那一定要有犯罪嫌疑，才有辦法去查嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據、罷郭台銘沒有證據，對不對？罷免其他人都沒有證據，但是只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據，你是這個意思吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是尊重檢察官的偵辦，因為我不會過問。"],["王委員鴻薇：你尊重？我直接講，我最後一個問題，現在直接都說是由邢泰釗下令來偵辦，是不是？邢泰釗下令要偵辦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：邢總長下令偵辦？"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這我不清楚，因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何去處理，因為他是檢察一體的檢察總長嘛！個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方、檢察機關他們對個案的一個處理，我只是一個……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、局長都要為歷史留下紀錄，比如說你看罷郭台銘也好、罷韓國瑜也好，這些都會留下紀錄，未來你們也都會留下紀錄，我剛剛講了這麼多的案例，你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦，這不叫做……我真的想請問民進黨是不是要雙標？如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免，然後可以去搜索另外一個選區黨部負責人的手機，去滑人家的手機，他最後是還給他，因為他根本不能扣押他手機嘛！他根本不能扣押他手機嘛！他直接可以去要求人家解碼、看人家手機，那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區、根本不搭嘎選區的黨員名冊帶走呢？帶走幹嘛？對付我王鴻薇嗎？對不對？我請問一下，在整個的罷免案裡面，你如果說今天是罷王鴻薇團體，你帶走中山區黨部的黨員名冊還有道理，在罷免士林北投、在罷免中正萬華，請問一下，跟中山區、大同區到底有什麼關係？你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊？來，局長你告訴我，為什麼、憑什麼？"],["陳局長白立：我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀，在同一個處所裡面，其實我們也很難去區分哪個……"],["王委員鴻薇：那你把人家情書也帶走好啦！你把人家家書也帶走好啦！"],["陳局長白立：看個案的內容。"],["王委員鴻薇：只要你覺得可以帶走，你就帶走啊！那我請問黨員名冊，不是那個選區的黨員名冊，為什麼你們可以帶走？"],["陳局長白立：因為這個牽涉到具體的個案，我想不對個案的內容……"],["王委員鴻薇：又來了，又是個案。"],["陳局長白立：做說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：這種個案沒有問題嗎？你們繼續濫權好了，我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情，你們這樣檢察官可以如此地濫權，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官沒有濫權啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼沒有濫權呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依法偵辦哪有什麼濫權？"],["王委員鴻薇：這怎麼叫依法偵辦？依什麼法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果濫權的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下，我中山區黨部的這些負責人跟這個罷免案、跟罷免吳思瑤及吳沛憶有什麼關係？什麼叫依法偵辦？來，部長，你敢這樣講，我請問一下中山區的黨員、中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤、罷免吳沛憶有什麼關係？你告訴我，大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係，你告訴我？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依照法官核發的搜索票……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫依照法官？你們難道現場不會判斷嗎？我告訴你，現在真的很多共用辦公室，按照你這種說法，以後大家非常恐怖啊，只要是共用辦公室，旁邊跟我共用辦公室的人出事，我統統要被搜索啊！可以這樣嗎？我問你可不可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案的、個案的……"],["王委員鴻薇：又來個案了，你拗不過就用個案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：我跟你講，這就叫做司法濫權，這就叫做整肅政敵，不折不扣，我請你們適可而止，你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊，在那邊講什麼侈言個案，你們的個案就是你們個案去整肅人家嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是這樣的嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。那我們下一位請沈伯洋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長 局長委員好"},{"start":29.929,"end":56.56,"text":"好部長 局長好那這個我這個會期還沒有過來這邊我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案我覺得是說這個不太妥當但是我還是要釐清一下就是說因為我是要問忠誠義務的事情剛剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了那第一個就是說剛剛有提到這一個韓國瑜那時候有1300多件我還是要講一下這1300多件是不合格數他死亡是"},{"start":57.14,"end":71.385,"text":"死亡是95 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check，我覺得是做不到的，所以我覺得這個要考慮一下，我覺得這可以思考一下。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：第二個是查核時機，這個剛剛其實已經有提過，時間點就是就任以前、轉職什麼等等之類，那時候要查一次嘛，對不對？再來是中間有可能五年、有可能八年要再查一次，再來還有離職以後，關於離職以後相關的規範，我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的軍人什麼等等之類的有做，但顯然那個範圍又跟前面有點不一樣，所以範圍要怎麼去一致化，就是前、中、後，我覺得這很重要。","最後就是查核內容，因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面，內容就是有沒有赴中、家人有沒有在中國做什麼特定的事情，但是我看美國的查核項目其實蠻多的，我們有可能要全面的盤點一下。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況，我覺得這可能就是一個，他們那種忠誠查核項目有時候甚至可以高達千項，我們可能可以把人員分成高、中、低三種不同的風險來做盤點。所以我覺得之後可能要儘速來討論，母法這邊我們要怎麼做，然後辦法可以做什麼樣的修改，我覺得這幾個層次可能需要比較快速的盤點，因為這個東西說起來其實是有點複雜啦！所以可能要請法務部還有調查局針對這件事情來多幫忙。"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後，我本來不太想講到那件事情，不過因為吳委員也是召委，就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類各式各樣的方式，我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答，雖然個案不能回答，但是在通案的部分，比如說目前我們搜索的態樣可能有哪些，剛剛講的其實是每一個個案的不同，所以他發動的方式不同，有些可能是交件的人，有時候可能是連署人，有可能是提供名冊的人，各式各樣不一樣，那可能要稍微釐清一下，還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面，我說真的，因為我今天早上聽……因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核義務的狀況，我從早上聽到現在也是聽了不少個案，再請法務部和調查局再多多注意，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。下一位請吳思瑤委員發言，吳思瑤委員發言完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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亞洲要撲人"},{"start":23.78,"end":38.732,"text":"刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒刑連三破五的任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊 三百三十九條"},{"start":41.629,"end":58.87,"text":"五年以下有期徒刑,我都說五年以下的,連署騙五天騙十天,承辦一年我們押不押,社會有壓力同樣啊,210條違照私文書,這次大量在連署造假,死亡連署這個,也是五年以下,集團性的"},{"start":59.631,"end":70.575,"text":"你說同樣的一個罪責 你就叫檢察官說 求你講的 都放 甚至有人講說哎喲 這個比例原則啦 甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊 所以你們解釋得不好 兩位都請回 不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":89.639,"end":91.741,"text":"國防部還有我們軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長"},{"start":108.07,"end":122.937,"text":"請你們上來不是刁難你們啦所以剛好我其實在上禮拜請教過我們司法院整個國安案件的一個審理這個部分因為我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上禮拜去考察"},{"start":123.777,"end":149.876,"text":"我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候"},{"start":152.638,"end":173.308,"text":"文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說都已經把機密交給敵人了怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講他會認為你這個洩密的文件你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件"},{"start":174.048,"end":194.637,"text":"那就很麻煩啦那就很麻煩啦那所以呢法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是國防部說回給法院說這是一般文件而已可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪"},{"start":196.837,"end":217.67,"text":"很合理啊 如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話 很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊 看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛 服務卿是吧 沒有公開審理那所以呢 也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差"},{"start":218.45,"end":226.191,"text":"那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境"},{"start":247.196,"end":257.486,"text":"跟過去整個軍事審判 軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長"},{"start":267.264,"end":296.466,"text":"好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢"},{"start":296.886,"end":324.748,"text":"他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他的保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的"},{"start":325.308,"end":347.748,"text":"那有在那個 就是個案中呢 又有發生過 就是說因為偵查的時候 如果你羈押人的時候 他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間 就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢 這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候 就起訴來了"},{"start":348.709,"end":371.343,"text":"那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這個個案他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況他就會涉及到了"},{"start":371.923,"end":385.541,"text":"就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況"},{"start":387.964,"end":412.279,"text":"就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件"},{"start":413.08,"end":415.041,"text":"所以問題就來了我們練習所有的單位"},{"start":443.901,"end":467.402,"text":"你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說"},{"start":469.195,"end":498.522,"text":"一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎"},{"start":500.233,"end":505.824,"text":"你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊然後你這到了"},{"start":506.533,"end":531.723,"text":"到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎請說明委員好 我是國防部法律司法律機構處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強"},{"start":532.583,"end":561.333,"text":"那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練 以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說譬如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年嘛 對不對"},{"start":562.526,"end":590.473,"text":"那法官是有終身保障咧?包委員其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦"},{"start":591.033,"end":594.516,"text":"那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階 這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性"},{"start":606.444,"end":626.317,"text":"這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足"},{"start":627.077,"end":650.43,"text":"制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計"},{"start":652.071,"end":668.977,"text":"但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件"},{"start":670.793,"end":697.223,"text":"居士案件都有協助所以嘛 畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則"},{"start":699.324,"end":720.596,"text":"涉及到一個判決那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部或者說法務部或者相關的一個單位大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1474,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時59分）謝謝召委，有請法務部部長及調查局局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長還有局長，我覺得剛剛吳召委在質詢的時候，你們都答得不好，你想想看，拿刀砍人刑法第二百七十七條傷害罪，5年以下有期徒刑。連續砍5個人，任何一個檢察官你押不押？社會重大矚目案件，不是嗎？詐欺罪第三百三十九條，最輕本刑5年以下有期徒刑。連續騙5件、騙10件，承辦檢察官押不押？社會有壓力。同樣，第二百一十條偽造私文書，就這次大量的連署造假、死亡連署也是5年以下有期徒刑，集團性的。","你說同樣的一個罪責，你叫檢察官都像你們說的都辦，甚至有人講比例原則，好像大砲在打小鳥。讓檢察官有辦案的空間是好事，這樣解釋就好了，所以你們解釋得不好，兩位都請回，不想問你們了。","我們請司法院的副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我不能只問副秘書長，今天國防部政治作戰局保防安全處處長也有到嘛！請國防部，還有軍事安全總隊總隊長汪總隊長，請你們上來不是刁難你們，我其實上禮拜請教過司法院國安案件的審理，這個部分因為我覺得沒有得到答案，可是我們上個禮拜去考察法官學院的時候，本席突然得到了一些靈感，所以要來就教，一般國安案件沒有公開審理，所以一般民眾只會看到結果，看到結果以後，過程比較沒有辦法理解，因為過程沒有辦法公開，所以民眾對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱。","法院有時候審理一個案件的時候，文來文去，到底有沒有違反到國安？涉及到資料的調查，民眾會認為都已經把機密交給敵人了，怎麼判這麼輕？可是對法官來講，他會認為洩密的文件，到底是有沒有涉及到機密或是一般的文件？那就很麻煩，所以法官審理的時候必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級，甚至保密的期限，到最後如果國防部回給法院說這是一般文件而已，可是媒體一披露已經把這些機密交給敵人了，法院判下來無罪，很合理啊！如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話，很有可能真的是無罪，這會產生很大的問題。大家看不到法官怎麼做出這個判決，因為沒有公開審理，所以也沒有辦法知道法官心證形成的過程，自然會有落差。","第二個，我剛提到的法院在等國防部的鑑定時間也會去拖延，有時候一來一往，連羈押的期間都已經過了。本席要提出來的就是，現在的法官也不諳（不熟悉）軍事跟國安風險的評估，不是說他程度低，是整個養成的過程裡面，還有所處的環境跟過去軍事審判，軍法官的看法會有所不同，司法院是不是藉這個機會好好來說明，你們還有沒有什麼樣的難處，應該可以跟社會來做溝通，這一點要來請教副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：非常謝謝委員，委員有提出了一些法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到的情況，當然每個個案的情形都不一樣，委員確實有講到一個情況比較普遍，我們在今年法官學院對於確定的案件做個案研討的時候有呈現出一個狀況，因為所謂的機密資料必須是要經過國防部判定它的屬性，這些資料是屬於哪種機密，是屬於國家機密，或國防應秘密，或國防以外的應秘密，甚至只是一般的文書，都是要經過國防部來判定它的屬性，還有種類、保密期間，這個是法院必須尊重的。個案中也有發生過，因為偵查的時候，如果你羈押人，他們辦案期間全部就只有4個月時間（羈押期間），所以常常因為偵查期間不夠，有碰過在偵查中這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候就起訴了，所以法院必須就這一些……因為有時候起訴罪數非常多，甚至這個個案就起訴了36項的罪，就要一個一個去問到底是哪一種機密，像這一種情況就會涉及到時間上的延長，甚至有判定回來之後，其實根本就不是屬於機密，那就不構成犯罪，跟構成要件不符合，就必須要判無罪的情形。","委員剛才有講到一個情況，關於最後產生的風險，等於是犯罪的損害有多大，這是量刑其中一個很大的因素，我們所建議法官的焦點團體，焦點團體包括國防部，還有國安局等團體，他們建議法院辦理國安案件犯罪態樣的量刑審酌注意事項，其中一個很重要的就是產生的風險評估，這個部分我們也是尊重主責機關，像是國防部，他們有時候回復的內容會比較簡略，或是比較抽象。有以上的一些情形。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以問題就來了，我們列席所有的單位，你們不是在看戲，跟你們有很重大的關係，一個案子到底最後法官會判出來會是怎樣？其實很多都是各個單位的問題，法官在做獨立審判的時候，有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實，常常都會影響到最後案件具體的判決。","譬如說一個案子到最後罪責是不是相當？判決做出來，你也要說得通，老百姓才有辦法去信服。本席為什麼今天再一次請司法院上來？原因就是我們接下來如果要恢復到軍事審判的話，這個制度的設計裡面，我們最擔心的像比如說國防部，法官的地位到底是什麼？對於軍法官專業的養成，你們真的準備好了嗎？因為你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的，到真正有急迫的時候，你們真的有辦法去運作嗎？請說明。"],["王處長正誼：委員好，我是國防部法律事務司法紀調查處處長。針對委員垂詢的這個部分，軍法官在103年之後，確實沒有從事偵審的工作，但是在未來如果修法恢復之後，我們會跟司法院也好、法務部也好，會針對訓練部分來做加強，其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分，其實是沒有太多問題，未來針對不管是偵察技巧或是審判上應該要注意的事情，我們會跟相關機關來做協調、訓練，以上。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是比較懷疑，不是說他的程度不好，有時候那個文化真的會不同，比如上尉，你們上尉多久一定要升上去，否則就要強制退伍？17年，對不對？"],["王處長正誼：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法官是有終身保障。"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，軍法官的部分確實是軍官，但是他也是審判法上的法官。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然，他是軍官嘛！他在審判的時候，當然他也叫做法官，可是跟普通法院的法官，就是不一樣。普通法官地位的保障、審判的獨立比較有辦法確保。如果是軍法官，涉及到他升遷的問題，還有軍階，這個是不是毫無影響到他審判的時候的獨立性，這個其實都值得去探討。"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，這個我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然啦！所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看，大家在看這整個軍法官是不是專業性不足？制度上的設計是不是有漏洞？要怎麼樣補強？尤其是軍法官的身分跟普通法院的法官也不一樣，就變成身分不明啊！有升遷壓力問題的時候，會涉及到整個審判獨立的保障。我希望未來整個制度的改革，你們可以好好的趕快去提出這樣的一個制度上的設計，但是以目前來看，比如你們軍法官有調到各地檢署或法院跟著他們一起學習及協助辦案。"],["王處長正誼：調到地檢署協助辦案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，借協助辦案，問題是你們辦的也未必是國安案件。"],["王處長正誼：軍事案件都有協助。"],["莊委員瑞雄：畢竟還是有本質上的不同，至於剛剛所提到的，就教副秘書長有關法官在量刑的部分，當然你們有類似參考標準的準則在，但那個部分是不是太過於簡略？應該要更具體或者怎麼樣在制度上再作精進？否則涉及到的判決，常常有時候跟社會上的認知落差會很大，這部分司法院也應該跟國防部、法務部或者相關的單位，大家共同再做研擬，司法到最後最重要的還是要回歸於人民對它的信賴，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，所有登記發言委員都已發言完畢，詢答結束。","請法務部及調查局在一個月內提供給我有關2023年到2024年立委大選期間，違反選罷法及反滲透法的案件中有簽結不起訴，還有緩起訴的件數，在緩起訴處分的件數中，已經職權送再議的案件數，還有整理判決無罪的理由，因為這些資料對我們將來有關反滲透法的偵辦及法律問題是否要修法，我覺得很重要。再次麻煩請法務部跟調查局能夠在一個月內提供給我這一份報告，因為從目前我所看到的數據，有關反滲透法簽結不起訴的比例真的非常高，也就是最後一審判有罪的比例已經很低，還不知道最後確定判有罪的會到多低？這才能夠有利於將來對於反滲透法的修法，我們希望要把它精緻化，好，謝謝各位。","有關委員質詢要求提供的相關資料，或是以書面答復的，請相關資料儘速送交個別委員及本會；委員翁曉玲、陳冠廷所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄及刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面回復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝那我們麻煩部長 局長還有署長部長 局長 署長有請委員好"},{"start":26.438,"end":44.367,"text":"謝謝三位三位午安我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是"},{"start":47.328,"end":68.574,"text":"並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人"},{"start":70.094,"end":97.545,"text":"他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題啊那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗啊而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道"},{"start":98.405,"end":117.297,"text":"你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的"},{"start":118.632,"end":147.785,"text":"如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索了現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡 搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些 還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊"},{"start":148.385,"end":174.344,"text":"因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看好 如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容"},{"start":174.964,"end":201.645,"text":"如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人在搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他 為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站有人去罷免了現場叫某一個"},{"start":202.813,"end":218.528,"text":"某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼"},{"start":219.449,"end":235.41,"text":"那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊"},{"start":236.631,"end":256.439,"text":"叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來甲官G票出來那你民眾就只好跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走"},{"start":257.672,"end":284.613,"text":"這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這個也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以不問媒體報導的訊息跟事實"},{"start":287.014,"end":304.16,"text":"我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理"},{"start":304.6,"end":323.874,"text":"那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據那部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好 謝謝部長好 那"},{"start":324.963,"end":343.694,"text":"我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等但是我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊"},{"start":345.223,"end":372.859,"text":"跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導"},{"start":373.519,"end":398.776,"text":"那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":402.117,"end":421.919,"text":"因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理"},{"start":423.3,"end":444.131,"text":"原則屬沒有碰這一塊好謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊 盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係"},{"start":448.333,"end":470.587,"text":"那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人 行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說 這個人只是安排行程的啦 不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的 尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程"},{"start":471.047,"end":493.993,"text":"所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的"},{"start":494.713,"end":512.603,"text":"的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好 謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下"},{"start":519.027,"end":540.604,"text":"這個數據之外 那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件 還起訴幾件 跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是 好 那今天沒準備沒關係 那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢 我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件"},{"start":542.705,"end":565.191,"text":"那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道那但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣啦就是說"},{"start":566.923,"end":590.08,"text":"反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的"},{"start":590.74,"end":605.412,"text":"但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴"},{"start":607.774,"end":623.269,"text":"到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼"},{"start":624.069,"end":638.097,"text":"變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問"},{"start":639.218,"end":668.245,"text":"這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事"},{"start":669.145,"end":683.299,"text":"你們要起訴他 判有罪 我都覺得應該 而且這些人就給他死不是給他死 就是給他從眾處理我都贊成 我都支持 因為他叛國 他對不起我們台灣人但是呢 問題是今天的法律設計"},{"start":685.083,"end":705.532,"text":"他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個 因為"},{"start":706.733,"end":725.949,"text":"我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪"},{"start":726.549,"end":741.024,"text":"結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎"},{"start":742.912,"end":761.312,"text":"因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了"},{"start":762.333,"end":785.639,"text":"另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是"},{"start":786.839,"end":811.282,"text":"鄉下的老人家 這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的 那難道是因為績效嗎 因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦 那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候 一個是打字 另外一個問嘛"},{"start":812.103,"end":824.703,"text":"後來我們發現還有問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路"},{"start":827.346,"end":842.311,"text":"那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分的一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案"},{"start":844.771,"end":868.678,"text":"再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬消疫很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙"},{"start":869.238,"end":875.814,"text":"然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子"},{"start":877.216,"end":899.676,"text":"那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接好那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險"},{"start":900.416,"end":919.131,"text":"他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴 換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題如果有一些陪著你們所謂主嫌 主謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都緩起訴了結果後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪"},{"start":920.285,"end":939.441,"text":"那這樣怎麼辦?那這些被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理?法務部有沒有思考這個問題?或調局有沒有思考這個問題?報委員,你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個太樣"},{"start":940.602,"end":955.442,"text":"所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴因為我剛有提到了這個案子就是在選舉前的那"},{"start":959.066,"end":974.596,"text":"這個案子因為現在一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對 這個案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來"},{"start":975.877,"end":1003.005,"text":"我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人"},{"start":1004.622,"end":1016.207,"text":"判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會"},{"start":1017.406,"end":1038.911,"text":"等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子第二個就是我剛剛提到的訊問時候的方式用騙的用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷"},{"start":1040.171,"end":1066.638,"text":"除非像這樣子啦那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法庭的程序再包括部長"},{"start":1067.998,"end":1095.963,"text":"這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論個案你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那 部長"},{"start":1097.338,"end":1106.328,"text":"我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣"},{"start":1108.224,"end":1127.003,"text":"這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點"},{"start":1129.685,"end":1147.774,"text":"好啦 最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦 司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的"},{"start":1148.937,"end":1160.78,"text":"國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1434,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時39分）好，謝謝。麻煩部長、局長還有署長。"],["主席：部長、局長、署長，有請。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝三位，三位午安。剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在，當然就個案的部分在立法院儘量不要去質詢，我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解，但是我剛剛看一下，其實大家也都在問個案，包括吳思瑤委員也在問個案。我剛剛聽過來覺得大家在爭執的，並不是像剛剛局長所說的「偽造文書是不是犯罪？」。對，偽造文書是犯罪沒錯，但大家比較在意的是，你是不是公平一致的對待，我想大家一直在強調這個點，而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪。我在這邊跟全國人報告，偽造文書就是犯罪。但是大家在意的是，不能因為這個人的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式，這是第一個。","第二個，法律上最講求的就是手段跟目的之間比例原則的問題，你要達到的目的是什麼？搜索跟羈押的目的是為了保全證據，那你要保全什麼證據將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗，而不是你今天構成犯罪，我就可以去你家搜索。侵占遺失物也是犯罪、罵人一句三字經也是犯罪，難道你罵人家一句話，我就要去你家搜索，把你羈押嗎？所以不是「犯罪」，你就可以做這些事情，而你要去考量的是公平性及目的手段的比例原則，這個部分我先說清楚，因為從早上聽到現在。","第二個要講的點，也是剛剛有人提到的，如果今天執行機關的人進去搜索現場，其實搜索票上面都載明非常清楚，今天搜索哪裡、搜索目的是什麼、可以扣押哪些東西，還有被搜索的人是誰，所以今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看，這是絕對不對的，如果今天有人這樣做，要麻煩調查局或法務部至少要跟同仁講，不能做這種事情。我自己以前帶隊搜索時，如果看到這種情況我一定會制止，因為他不是被搜索人。照你這樣講的話，今天如果到某一家公司搜索，是不是全公司同仁的手機都交出來看一看？如果今天承辦人可以去看人家手機，我想請問那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面？如果沒有，既然沒有要扣押它，又憑什麼去看他手機的內容，如果有這樣的事情是絕對違法。","所以我在這邊也跟國人報告，這是正當的、合法的訴訟之法律上的權力，如果今天你在現場、你也不是被搜索人、搜索案件也跟你無關，執行者叫你交出手機或叫你跟他走，你根本就不用理會，為什麼要理他？就像那天調查站有人去罷免的現場叫某一個民眾跟他走一樣，我覺得最簡單就是出示拘票把他帶走，否則在那邊跟他糾纏做什麼？他不願意去就不用去，更不應該在現場一直跟他糾纏半天，現在當然講一個理由說因為他先生說要找他……今天是當事人不願意，就算夫妻關係，先生也不能逼太太去哪裡、先生也不能叫調查官把太太帶回家，這都不對，所以這個執行是有問題的。我當天看新聞在報導就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼，怎麼可以到現場糾纏、叫當事人跟他回去，否則檢察官就出示拘票，民眾就只好跟他走，我個人覺得是這樣。這是正當的法律程序、是民眾的權利，除非我講錯，部長跟局長都可以打臉我，如果我沒有講錯，今天你到現場拗民眾跟你走，這本來就是違法的，你就是不能做這種事情，更何況今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說，公務員怎麼可以做這種事情，這個也不對。","沒有，這跟法務部沒有關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛剛委員關心高雄的這件事件，事實上高雄地檢署發新聞稿表示，調查局人員經出示證件表明身分，沒有再執行任何搜索、扣押、拘提……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以部分媒體報導的訊息跟事實不符，這個部分高雄地檢署……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有意見，因為確實有媒體報導他沒有出示證件，這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論。我今天的意見是，不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件，今天沒有檢察官的拘票就不能叫民眾跟你走，這是一個最簡單的道理。報導是調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣，我覺得那是兩回事，就像你也沒有權力命令你太太去哪裡，或叫調查官把你太太帶去哪裡，我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據。部長剛剛講的東西我懂，但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊。好，謝謝部長。","我先請教廉政署，請問你們100年到現在對機關安全維護等等，但是卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的共諜，你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，有關機關安全跟公務機密維護的這一塊，其實各政風單位的人都有在做，但我們主要做的是針對維護公務上的機密，未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力；至於像是國家機密的部分，我們也會儘量減少人員的接觸；關於安全意識的部分也會去宣導；再來，對於一些違常的事件，我們如果發現，也會主動地協助提供資料給負責的機關去偵辦。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想你們都知道哪一件，主要是吳釗燮以前的助理，因為案子還在偵辦，所以細節跟詳情我不去過問，我只想知道為什麼一個人到那邊9年卻只有做過一次的安全考核，是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["馮署長成：因為目前忠誠查核的法源依據在公務員任用法，對於某些特別需要查核的部分，那些職務是經過公告以後再請調查局來做，實際上負責查核跟查核的項目是由調查局來做，廉政署沒有碰這一塊。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝署長，謝謝署長說明得非常清楚。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，這幾位大概只有何仁傑當時初任是在職務列表裡面，所以他有查核過一次，另外，像吳尚雨、盛礎纓都沒有在職務列表裡面，所以他們都沒有經過特殊查核，也跟機關沒有關係。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝局長。也跟各位說明，其實我個人在行政機關也待過，今天有媒體出來說，這個人只是安排行程的、不是重要人員。我覺得是騙人的，行程分為公開跟非公開，能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的，尤其是會觸碰到非公開的行程，所以如果有一個人可以安排到重要長官的行程，但他卻是共諜，其實對長官的安全傷害非常大，所以我覺得有一些媒體很奇怪，喜歡帶風向，不是安排行程的人就不重要，反而我覺得是更重要的。"],["陳局長白立：是，同意委員的說法，所以將來希望從接密的條件去匡哪些是需要查核的對象。"],["吳委員宗憲：好、好、好，謝謝。","我再請教法務部跟調查局，因為我看了一段時間，我有看到你們反滲透法的報告，你們說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件，2024年起訴60件，我想請教這些數據之外，在這一段時間施行以來，不起訴幾件？緩起訴幾件？跟簽結幾件？你們有沒有去做統計？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我這邊沒有資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有是不是？好，今天沒準備沒關係，我跟各位報告，目前我手上看到的，無罪有10件，而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴；一審判有罪的是4件，在起訴一審有罪的這4件當中，將來會不會被維持有罪判決也不知道，但有更多是不起訴或是簽結，我看到一個報導，說臺北市有21個人直接不起訴；花蓮也有約談22個，後來也都不起訴，還有更多都是直接簽結。","我的意思是，反滲透法出來之後，其實我對這部法律有非常多的懷疑，因為起訴後將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據，今天如果依照反滲透法，受敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的，這些證據將來檢察官要怎麼去跟對岸要？難道你行文去國臺辦請他們提供自己的犯罪證據，或請他們提供這一團的核銷單據？你覺得國臺辦會理你嗎？其實不可能，所以將來起訴到法院會判有罪的，我覺得我不用看結論，光是從法律的設計都覺得應該很不容易，除非是在極端罕見情況下法官才有可能判有罪，到最後反滲透法變成什麼？變成是擾民的工具，將來我一定會去要所有的數據，弄清楚這段時間傳喚多少人？找多少民眾來？有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問？這就像早期在查選舉招待旅遊一樣，一次兩、三百人被帶到調查站去問，就會變成像這樣的狀況再發生。","在以前我們都認為搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴，非常擾民，到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說，如果今天可以證明他拿中共的資金來臺灣做一些違法事，你們要起訴他判有罪，我覺得應該從重處理，我都贊成、我都支持，因為他叛國，他對不起臺灣人。但是問題是今天的法律設計，很多直接證據將來在法庭上面根本拿不出來，所以搞到最後，反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾人民的做法，反滲透法在政治上感覺像是殺雞儆猴，讓大家不敢出來。","為什麼我今天會提到這個？因為我就任到現在一年多，有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情，他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品交流，結果他們被搜索、被帶回去、被扣手機，大家嚇得要死，有非常多是鄉下人，被問之後，即使後來一審判無罪，不是沒有起訴，是一審判無罪，結果鄰里看到他都不敢跟他講話，這是政府對待人民的方式嗎？民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家，結果反而傷害自己的頭家，我最近收到非常多陳情。","我還有看到一件資料，因為是已經起訴到院方，我有看到閱卷後的資料，我發現一個狀況，有用騙的，在做筆錄的時候，跟老人家說另外一個人已經承認，結果看筆錄的時間點，他告訴老人家另外一位已經承認的時間點，另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄，因為筆錄都有時間，所以怎麼會把二、三十年前那種用騙的、用拗的、用恐嚇的問筆錄模式放在今天，而且對付的是鄉下的老人家？其實我不太能接受，尤其司法改革已經這麼久，怎麼還在走回頭路用騙的？難道是為了績效嗎？因為什麼嗎？更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪，我覺得不應該。還有做筆錄的時候，一個是打字，另外一個問，後來發現還有問到一半，有長官進來指導辦案，叫當事人要承認，讓我覺得訊問的方式在走回頭路。我講的是現在受理的個案，但是還有一部分一審還沒有判，現在沒有辦法跟你們講，如果在案子結束之後，如果有人問我，我會整個講出來，因為我不想干涉任何個案。","再來，我還要提最高檢察署有發新聞稿說，有人問到說反滲透法處理下，會不會造成寒蟬效應、很多人民受害？他們說沒有，主要是對於行為人或主謀，可是我們看到這一段時間，所有反滲透法的案子是非常多善良老百姓被叫去問、被嚇得要死，檢察官跟他說，你就認一認，緩起訴沒事，所以導致有很多案子民眾只是去旅遊，回來怕繼續惹事或被關嚇得要死，所以就直接說：好，我認，給我緩起訴。現在發生一個問題，其實我自己當過檢察官都很清楚，當事人有時候承認，就給他緩起訴，可是證據到底充不充足，承辦檢察官自己其實心知肚明，很多時候甚至因為證據不足，覺得起訴有風險，他會跟當事人講，不然我給你最輕微的緩起訴，換你的承認。將來會發生一個問題，如果有一些陪著你們所謂的主嫌到大陸去旅遊，結果回來之後，去參加旅遊的人都承認、都緩起訴，後來主嫌因為證據不足判無罪，這樣怎麼辦？被騙緩起訴的這些人以後怎麼處理？法務部有沒有思考這個問題？或調查局有沒有思考這個問題？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你剛剛提的狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的，反滲透法要規範的是，受滲透來源指示、委託、資助而違反選罷法，選罷法是其中一個態樣，所以基本上，反滲透法處罰對象是揪團的人，如果以你說去大陸旅遊，法條要處罰是揪團的人，所以參團的人絕對不會受到起訴或不起訴，他們是證人的身分。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，因為我剛剛有提到，這個案子就是在選舉前的，因為現在……"],["陳局長白立：一般這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這些案子在選舉前，這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室密切地聯繫，因為有部分還沒有被判，目前到一審判決的都無罪，將來我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候就可以把案子公開，到時候再來談。","但是我要跟各位報告一件事情，選舉到了，總是用這種方式讓大家噤聲，我覺得這樣不對，因為我們明明是民主國家，現在的政黨一直追求民主，結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼？另外是在問筆錄時……我剛剛提到緩起訴的部分，不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人判無罪，其他到場的那些人反而變成緩起訴，就等著看將來會不會這樣？因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了。沒關係，我會等其他人在一審都判完之後，再來跟大家討論這個案子。","第二個，我剛剛提到訊問時候的方式是用騙的、用拐的，跟各位報告，如果你認為筆錄真的敢像以前一樣不錄音、不錄影，或是像高虹安或者是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷，除非像這樣子，發生了什麼事我不知道，否則全程錄音、錄影的話，所有訊問的方式將來都會曝光，不要說到最後別人把這個資料在開庭時拿出來，再來被大家質疑，我覺得沒必要這樣，尤其最近來跟我陳情的幾個案子，很多都有很嚴重的違反法定程序。","再包括這個案件已經起訴了，已經不是我在偵查中討論個案，你們北檢的那位檢察官跑去問沈慶京的時候，竟然可以在被告的訊問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷，我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄，主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄，我們什麼時候對於被告的訊問筆錄還可以括號被告的眼神怎麼樣，我真的不知道可以這樣做。我這樣講不知道部長會不會聽的進去，但我覺得司法的信任度被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞，這不是國家的福氣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個筆錄的記載，這本來就是書記官的職權，我當過書記官喔！這個本來就可以記載被告的神情，本來就可以記載的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們會記載被告拒答、哭泣等等的，但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎？請部長自己先想清楚這個點。","最後，我認為司法是拿來抓犯罪的，司法不是政治工具，國安法的目的是為了針對跟清算中共對臺灣的滲透勢力，不是拿來對付無辜的國人，請大家記住這一點，司法是對付犯罪的，國安法是對付外來的，例如中共滲透的外來勢力，所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具，國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：不好意思，謝謝莊瑞雄委員，請多擔待。","廖先翔、廖先翔、廖先翔。","請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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我們是痛心"},{"start":285.523,"end":296.385,"text":"你結果今天為了要假裝你藍綠都辦你搞一個樣板叫基隆結果目的是赤裸裸去嫁禍林佩祥很多人在罵林佩祥啊"},{"start":297.839,"end":315.226,"text":"林佩祥好恐怖喔還可以騷擾今天連署人家裡啊林佩祥多冤啊他指揮得了你檢調嗎請問林佩祥指揮得了檢調嗎鄭總回答得出來嗎我可以回應你的質問嗎來我問你的問題林佩祥指揮得了檢調嗎我想我們這個罷免的連署案其實"},{"start":319.048,"end":347.866,"text":"我們今天要抓的一個重點就是有沒有影響到我們選舉罷免的公平性這對我們國家來來來基隆有沒有影響到選舉罷免的公平性這對我們國家來講是非常非常重要的好啦好啦好啦我沒有在跟你講抓我還沒跟你講抓不抓的問題我講的是抓要不要公平啊你當然就問你嘛今天基隆基隆來來對一定會公平的一定會公平一定公平啊好公平啊九英白五爪對乾坤大榮你這超公平的一定非常公平啊"},{"start":350.179,"end":364.433,"text":"不要當大家是瞎子真的 我就直接問你嘛來來來 你的法學素養深厚 兩位齁民主國家齁 有哪個民主國家司法檢調大舉搜索 最大在野黨黨部的"},{"start":365.373,"end":382.82,"text":"其實這個問題其實不需要法學素養很深厚啦現在就是說偽造文書到底是不是犯罪來啦來啦我就問你嘛國際通歷不用法學素養很深厚你就那麼猛為什麼會偽造文書不是犯罪啊不是迫害沒有來回答我啊有沒有哪個民主國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部的"},{"start":383.74,"end":398.663,"text":"搜索需要法官核發的令狀不是說我們要搜索就能夠搜索你們檢察官有沒有申請申請也要提出證據啊我告訴你 司法就綁在一起我現在講的是檢察官是你到現在不敢回答我 因為就是沒有有啦 我錯了 我投降"},{"start":399.324,"end":421.194,"text":"有啦 希特勒有啦希特勒有啦對啊 我有回答你啊我告訴你啊 你回答我什麼哪個國家的名字給我聽 德國嗎哪個國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部嘛好啦 你要跟我鬼打牆金庸第四招 新寫的功夫叫鬼打牆 我也佩服你"},{"start":422.395,"end":441.55,"text":"交給社會公平我回答問你哪個國家到現在一個字都吐不出來一個國家你都吐不出來鬼打牆你逃避問題沒關係我告訴你很簡單大法官說你可以逃避問題說謊都無罪我剛剛已經跟我們部長多次交流這件事情今天我們在這邊我們隨便你們怎麼講來沒關係我來告訴你我現在問你下一個問題這件事啊你們扯到什麼地步"},{"start":451.428,"end":470.101,"text":"啊?扯到什麼地步?共諜案勝處因二十萬交保我的辦公室主任陳冠安也是二十萬交保你們用什麼罪去偵辦他二十萬交保?偽造文書嘛?是不是?"},{"start":471.638,"end":481.922,"text":"這個我們尊重檢察官跟法官這個不是我們的權責我沒有問你權責問題我們尊重檢察官跟法官來來來 部長部長請問用什麼罪用什麼案子用什麼罪名交20萬交保這個涉嫌各司法41條跟刑法210條你看嘛 局長還有那個選罷法98條 局長"},{"start":500.373,"end":513.84,"text":"局長 人家部長就沒個案你就個案 學一下來我肯定啊 部長你緊張什麼對嘛好啦好啦 部長我肯定你啦沒關係啦 我肯定你啦來來來 我肯定你都不行我要否定你才高興公然打臉我們調查局局長 謝謝你他個案咧你狀況外就不要推個案來我想請教你下一個問題啊我告訴你啊 很抱歉很抱歉"},{"start":530.765,"end":538.751,"text":"如果今天陳觀安從頭到尾沒有涉入你講的那個選罷法的所謂偽造連署也好 瑕疵連署也好 死人連署也好請問你們檢方在做這事有沒有涉及濫權啊為什麼要涉及濫權 我告訴你為什麼要這樣問這個怎麼會涉及 這是依法偵辦怎麼會涉及濫權依法偵辦啊 謝謝你我告訴你 別人我不敢講"},{"start":560.373,"end":569.34,"text":"別人我不敢講陳冠安當時罷免雙無的團體希望他站出來來幫忙發聲他有跑來跟我報告我問了他一句話你有沒有參與連署會不會參與連署他說不會 他不參與連署只是站出來講話我跟你賭啦"},{"start":589.414,"end":610.012,"text":"他沒有涉及任何瑕疵連署跟你所謂死亡連署偽造文書啦我保證沒有啦這個我在這邊我不談個案了隨便你啦我不談個案我告訴你 你那千變萬化功很厲害啦對到你今天想答的問題你就沒有個案問題對到你不想答的問題就個案問題我知道啦 部長你現在的習慣是如此啦我又不是不認識你但我要告訴你啊陳關就是沒有涉入啦"},{"start":617.076,"end":628.371,"text":"但是為什麼今天要20萬交保 我跟你講你們陽謀是什麼啦就扣他手機嘛 扣他電腦 手機電腦有沒有扣有沒有扣 不清楚啊 就扣了啦辦公室我的資料有沒有收進去 就收了啦"},{"start":637.432,"end":653.072,"text":"我告訴你我給你一個建議真的拜託你請問我辦公室所有跟陳觀安以及陳觀安參與我辦公室各項群組乃至於陳觀安我們一起在揭弊所集合的群組裡面的所有訊息請問有沒有匯報給我們賴清德總統啊"},{"start":657.612,"end":681.782,"text":"這個怎麼可能呢?當然嘛 你一定說不可能 我知道 我做球給你啊我都沒辦法去做 我做球給你 我就等你否認嘛那你就否認完就好啦我告訴你 獅子賴清德總統今天等著看我羅志強辦公室透明化啦我也直接跟你講 我跟部長講 跟局長講趕快來搜我"},{"start":683.55,"end":701.225,"text":"趕快來搜我 我敞開大門歡迎你們我做好進去的準備了啦 我還不懂你們在幹什麼你從頭到尾搜索陳冠恩 相專無間 自在自強啦他根本沒有任何事 沒有犯任何一點法我吱吱聲響 就是因為我還真的問過他有沒有去參與連署工作 他說沒有"},{"start":712.222,"end":736.497,"text":"只是他們希望他來幫忙講話幫忙講話20萬交保共諜案20萬交保搞了半天幫忙監督民進黨的罪責難是跟共諜案一樣啊部長我跟你講 局長跟你講將心比心啊我今天的感受 請你體諒一下你的辦公室主任被這樣對待我看你要不要站出來講話就是這樣子啊"},{"start":741.733,"end":771.056,"text":"所以我今天說一句實在話今天我們看到你那麼多的一些所謂辯詞 誓詞人民眼睛不瞎啦我在這邊呼籲全台灣人民司法檢調淪落到跟希特勒一樣的時候我告訴你今天封陳冠安的口明天查羅志強的帳後天割台灣人民的喉"},{"start":772.129,"end":781.079,"text":"4月29號 拜託大家上街頭真的拜託大家上街頭我今天看到就是這個樣子謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1332,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時26分）主席，有請部長跟局長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長、局長，我跟剛剛的啓楷委員不太一樣，我在這邊是要肯定你們，我覺得我們的檢察官跟調查局武功學得很好，我送你們幾句話：武林至尊，綠色檢調，清算天下，莫敢不從！威風！先給你一個大大的讚，肯定！我先來請教一下，對付罷綠，你們的招數叫九陰白骨爪，催破首腦，招招取命，兇狠威風！只要是敢罷民進黨的，你們查領銜人、抓領銜人、押領銜人、查國民黨黨部、清算國民黨黨工，統統抓！直接催破首腦，九陰白骨爪在你們檢調跟法務部的威風之下真的發揮得淋漓盡致！我給你們大大按讚！金庸筆下活靈活現就出了我們一個綠色檢調，九陰白骨爪真的威風啊！","可是我跟您講，您威風的不只是九陰白骨爪，您的乾坤大挪移也讓我嘆為觀止，遇到罷免藍的……有啦！為了要平衡，告訴大家：沒有、沒有，罷藍、罷綠，我都抓。遇到罷免藍的，到基隆去，不一樣欸！表面所謂的辦綠，實際打藍，這個時候就不抓領銜人了，這個時候就不去搜索民進黨的黨部啦？跑去騷擾連署人，大清早六點半去騷擾連署人，太厲害了！金庸都沒你們厲害，太厲害了！嫁禍林沛祥來示警領銜人，抱歉！那些連署人都被搜了，就告訴領銜人，資料該整理一下喔！要躲就躲。我就問一下部長跟局長，奇怪，為什麼遇到罷藍的，到基隆去的時候忽然就不搜領銜人、不押領銜人、不去搜索民進黨的黨部了？這麼溫柔啊？原來還有溫柔版的乾坤大挪移，還是九陰白骨爪只是對著在野黨出？部長，請問。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為我也不會介入個案，這個是個案，這有檢察官指揮偵辦犯罪，這個我不指導、不介入……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！金庸第三大招出來叫一推二五六！前面不是振振有詞跟張啓楷辯論？為什麼我現在問到你又答不出來了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是偵查中的案件，我沒辦法……"],["羅委員智強：是啦！是啦！萬用符、保身符啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊！委員，難道你希望……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！沒關係啦！封你一問三不知，統統推個案啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員當然應該不希望我介入到個案的處理吧？所以我也不會去處理個案。"],["羅委員智強：局長，來，我幫你先回答了，不介入個案，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["羅委員智強：是喔？感謝您！"],["陳局長白立：偵查不公開。"],["羅委員智強：一問三不知雙人組，加上檢調的所謂九陰白骨爪，配上乾坤大挪移，威風凌厲啦！威風凌厲啦！當國人都傻瓜嗎？看不出來嗎？都看不出來嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是，我想國人應該看得到死亡連署的狀況啦！"],["羅委員智強：有啊、有啊，你有沒有辦基隆？"],["陳局長白立：死亡連署……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有辦基隆？剛剛不是拿基隆做例子，不要說你們辦藍不辦綠，基隆你們辦啦！"],["陳局長白立：對啊！我們辦了基隆，你又說我們太早出門。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！基隆辦了！哇！鼓掌，超讚！太早出門？太早出門查連署人！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["羅委員智強：另外是太早出門去抓領銜人，搜索、羈押……"],["陳局長白立：這個個案我們是依照檢察官的指揮。"],["羅委員智強：喔！又推給檢察官？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["羅委員智強：好棒棒的時候就是你們今天沒有差別待遇，有差別待遇的時候推給檢察官，說檢察官自己來決定。我跟你講，你今天只辦藍不辦綠，我們是痛心，你今天為了要假裝藍綠都辦，你搞一個樣板叫基隆，結果目的是赤裸裸去嫁禍林沛祥，很多人都在罵林沛祥啊！林沛祥好恐怖喔！還可以騷擾連署人家裡，林沛祥多冤啊！他指揮得了你檢調嗎？請問，林沛祥指揮得了檢調嗎？這總回答得出來了吧？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我可以回應你的質問嗎？"],["羅委員智強：來，我問你的問題，林沛祥指揮得了檢調嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我想這個罷免的連署案，其實我們今天要抓的一個重點就是有沒有影響到選舉罷免的公平性，這對我們國家來講……"],["羅委員智強：來、來、來，基隆有沒有影響到選舉罷免的公平性？"],["陳局長白立：是非常非常重要的。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！好啦！好啦！我還沒跟你講抓不抓的問題，我講的是抓要不要公平啊！我就問你嘛，今天基隆……"],["陳局長白立：當然一定會公平，這一定會公平的，一定會公平。"],["羅委員智強：一定公平啊？好公平啊！九陰白骨爪對乾坤大挪移，你這超公平的！"],["陳局長白立：一定非常公平。"],["羅委員智強：非常猛！不要當大家是瞎子，真的！我就直接問你嘛，來、來、來，你的法學素養深厚，兩位，有哪個民主國家司法檢調大舉搜索最大在野黨黨部的？"],["陳局長白立：其實這個問題不需要法學素養很深厚啦！現在就是說偽造文書到底是不是犯罪的問題。"],["羅委員智強：來啦、來啦，我就問你嘛！國際通例，不用法學素養深厚，你就那麼猛、那麼威，回答我啊！"],["陳局長白立：偽造文書就是犯罪啊！不是迫害！"],["羅委員智強：來，回答我啊！有沒有哪個民主國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部的？"],["陳局長白立：搜索需要法官核發的令狀，不是說我們要搜索就能夠搜索。"],["羅委員智強：你們檢察官有沒有聲請？"],["陳局長白立：聲請也要提出證據啊！要能夠提出證據。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，司法是綁在一起，我現在講的是檢察官。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["羅委員智強：你到現在不敢回答我，因為就是沒有！有啦！我錯了，我投降，有啦！希特勒有啦！"],["陳局長白立：沒有啊，我有回答……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不能這樣講。"],["陳局長白立：這個我有回答你啊！對啊，我有回答你啊！"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你……你回答我什麼？哪個國家，你講給我聽！德國嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們檢察官去搜索，他去聲搜的時候一定要提出證據。"],["羅委員智強：哪個國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部嘛？"],["陳局長白立：一定要提出證據，由法官認同啊！"],["羅委員智強：好啦！你要給我鬼打牆，金庸第四招，新寫的功夫叫鬼打牆！我也佩服你！"],["陳局長白立：這個我不曉得哪一招，這個我不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：交給社會公評，我問你哪個國家，到現在一個字都吐不出來，一個國家你都吐不出來，鬼打牆！你逃避問題沒關係，我告訴你，很簡單，大法官說你可以逃避問題，說謊都無罪！剛剛我已經跟我們部長多次交流這件事情了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會說謊。"],["陳局長白立：不會，不會說謊，我們在國會殿堂不會說謊。"],["羅委員智強：今天我們在這邊，來，沒關係！我來告訴你，我現在問你下一個問題，這件事你們扯到什麼地步，扯到什麼地步？共諜案盛礎纓20萬交保，我的辦公室主任陳冠安也是20萬交保，你們用什麼罪去偵辦他，20萬交保？偽造文書嘛，是不是？"],["陳局長白立：這個我們尊重檢察官跟法官……"],["羅委員智強：哎呀！又尊重啦？"],["陳局長白立：這個不是我們的權責。"],["羅委員智強：啊？我沒有問你權責問題耶！"],["陳局長白立：這個我們尊重檢察官跟法官……"],["羅委員智強：來，部長，來，部長，請問用什麼罪、用什麼案子、用什麼罪名，讓他20萬交保？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個涉嫌個資法第四十一條跟刑法第兩百一十條。"],["羅委員智強：你看嘛！局長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有選罷法第九十八條之二。"],["羅委員智強：局長，人家部長就沒個案，你就個案？學一下！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，這個就是……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，我肯定啊！部長，你緊張什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是個案。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：20萬交保，我們要尊重檢察官的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦、好啦，部長，我肯定你啦！沒關係啦，我肯定你啦！肯定你都不行？我否定你才高興？公然打臉我們調查局局長，謝謝你，他說個案耶！你狀況外就不要推個案。","來，我想請教下一個問題，我告訴你，很抱歉！很抱歉！如果今天陳冠安從頭到尾根本沒有涉入你講的那個選罷法所謂偽造連署也好、瑕疵連署也好、死人連署也好，請問你們檢方在做這件事有沒有涉及濫權？為什麼叫涉及濫權？我告訴你為什麼要這樣問！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個怎麼涉及濫權？這是依法偵辦，怎麼會涉及濫權？"],["羅委員智強：好、好、好，依法偵辦，謝謝你。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊！這個法院審核過了。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，別人我不敢講……"],["鄭部長銘謙：難道法院也濫權嗎？"],["羅委員智強：等我問完，謝謝您！別人我不敢講，當時罷免雙吳的團體希望陳冠安站出來幫忙發聲，他有跑來跟我報告，我問了他一句話，你有沒有參與連署？會不會參與連署？他說不會，他不參與連署，只是站出來講話，我跟你賭啦！他沒有涉及任何瑕疵連署、死亡連署跟偽造文書，我保證沒有。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在這邊不談個案。"],["羅委員智強：隨便你。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不談個案。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你那千變萬化功很厲害，對到你今天想答的問題，就沒有個案問題；對到你不想答的問題，就是個案。我知道，部長，你現在的習慣是如此，我又不是不認識你，但我要告訴你，陳冠安就是沒有涉入，但是為什麼今天要20萬交保，你們的陽謀是什麼？就扣他手機、扣他電腦。手機、電腦有沒有扣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：不清楚啊！就扣了。我辦公室的資料有沒有搜進去？就搜了啦！我給你一個建議，真的拜託你，請問我辦公室所有跟陳冠安有關，以及陳冠安參與我辦公室各項群組，乃至於陳冠安和我們一起在揭弊所集合的群組裡面的所有訊息，請問有沒有彙報給賴清德總統？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個怎麼可能呢？"],["羅委員智強：當然嘛！你一定說不可能，我知道，我做球給你。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對個案都沒辦法做……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，我做球給你，我就等你否認嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：絕對是不可能的事。"],["羅委員智強：你否認完就好。我告訴你失職，賴清德總統今天等著看我羅智強辦公室透明化，我也直接跟你講、跟部長講、跟局長講，趕快來搜我，我敞開大門歡迎你們，我做好進去的準備了，我還不懂你們在幹什麼，你從頭到尾搜索陳冠安，項莊舞劍志在智強啦！他根本沒有做任何事、沒有犯任何一點法，我知之甚詳，就是因為我還真的問過他有沒有去參與連署工作，他說沒有，只是他們希望他來幫忙講話，幫忙講話20萬交保、共諜案20萬交保，搞了半天，幫忙監督民進黨的罪、責難是跟共諜案一樣。部長跟局長，將心比心，我今天的感受請你體諒一下，你的辦公室主任被這樣對待，我看你要不要站出來講話。","所以我說一句實在話，今天我們看到你那麼多所謂的辯詞、誓詞，人民眼睛不瞎，我在這邊也呼籲全臺灣人民，司法檢調淪落到跟希特勒一樣的時候，今天封陳冠安的口，明天查羅智強的帳，後天割臺灣人民的喉。4月29號真的拜託大家上街頭，我今天看到就是這個樣子，謝謝。"],["主席：好，下一位我們請馬文君委員，馬文君委員、馬文君委員。","接下來就麻煩羅委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：有請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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案情不一樣那我也不會干涉介入 我也沒有去參與了解這些事你有聽到你這層檢察官說你這樣是不是變成司法打手了怎麼會這麼不公平 你看看咧明明是加起來16比17啊你再怎麼取樣都不可能出現這麼不公平吧剛剛 局長 你剛才的意思你剛才的意思是法務部"},{"start":102.967,"end":122.883,"text":"檢察官這邊都沒有沒有沒有發查你現在責任是推給那個推給那個檢察官這邊嗎沒有檢察官有發查但是應該是沒有全部我們現在沒發查你為什麼0比5呢為什麼出現0比5你的意思是報告員如果你有注意到的話其實目前現在發動偵辦的都是一些死亡連署"},{"start":123.854,"end":146.377,"text":"的一個狀況基隆您配講那個是110多個不是死亡連署是什麼那個不是死亡連署他沒有任何死亡連署嗎來你看你看中選會來看中選會的告發他什麼一件以上有涉及死亡連署或者其他的這裡面有多少16個案15加1包括高雄案的有多少是有死亡連署的你目前辦一個案子給我看有沒有"},{"start":147.598,"end":155.66,"text":"我們現在辦的都是死亡連署 因為死亡連署死亡連署就是一個很明顯的地方你不要硬啊 你不要閃避 這16個案子裡面沒有任何一個案子是有死亡連署的嗎這個要看個案的要看個案 你這邊已經辦了 南京這邊辦了5個啊你這邊16個 我問你 16個裡面沒有任何一個有死亡連署嗎"},{"start":171.84,"end":188.695,"text":"其實對我們來說沒有這個要經得起考驗喔這個非常經得起考驗對我們來說其實是沒有藍綠我們只是從這些死亡連署的人數太多的這些狀況可能檢察官覺得這個是比較嚴重的第一個中選會是有一個以上他就告發了這是第一次嘛對不對第一次的"},{"start":190.851,"end":207.849,"text":"那你應該同時辦啊你覺得有 到目前我就是在辦啊你去辦 辦到一個5比0包括一個5比0局長 局長你能不能給我的答案 局長現在是嚴重 這個司法的天秤 嚴重傾斜嘛我看到也知道啊現在就是說 你到底當時要辦"},{"start":209.511,"end":232.851,"text":"你要公平嘛我現在不是講藍綠的問題你要司法是要公正跟公平的你什麼時候綠的才要辦我們很同意喔我們很同意委員說這個這個司法要公平我們不是講藍綠啊你這樣有公平嗎所以我們現在就是針對如果委員你去看那些死亡連署的狀況你就會出現你就會知道說問題出在哪裡對啊啊你綠的我就問你嘛綠的都沒有死亡連署嗎"},{"start":236.05,"end":255.416,"text":"都沒有是嗎15加1 包括高黃金的案 霸藍的15個案子都沒有嗎現在在國會殿堂 現在是對著全民講話 局長現在檢驗兩個嘛 你什麼時候開始辦律第二個你在辦的時候有多少個是有死亡連署是律的發起的一定經得起考驗"},{"start":257.332,"end":282.45,"text":"好 現在去考驗 有 全民正在看你你目前已經經不起考驗了0比5 你接下來就看你的進度來 保定 我問你一下我們年紀都差不多啦我跟你講一個比較沉痛的事情我們這個年紀啊 我們經過戒嚴到解嚴多少人為了台灣的民主法治 人權不要說流血流汗 連性命都丟了啦那鄭南榕為了爭取言論100%你們現在辦這個案子這樣"},{"start":286.282,"end":311.536,"text":"這樣辦不只是沒有公正沒有公平我問你一個最簡單的你應該是一個民主素養的法務部長全世界的民主國家除了台灣這一次國民黨的台北市黨部被你們搜索了近景連柯文哲家裡面跟民眾黨的中央黨部都被你們搜索了你的腦海裡面全世界民主國家有那個國家"},{"start":313.291,"end":341.89,"text":"檢調去搜索在野黨的這個辦公室的有沒有幾個給我聽這個我對這邊是沒有研究美國如果共和黨執政如果共和黨執政敢去搜索民進黨民主黨任何一個辦公室而且這個是權力分立的嘛這個有犯罪嫌疑要搜索的話這是要跟法院申請的如果法院沒有搜索的必要所以柏定我說你我們年紀差不多我們經歷了那個整個民主進程你現在倒退如何啦"},{"start":344.012,"end":359.866,"text":"這個對你來講歷史定位這是一個傷害你要想辦法去補破往往前邁進我剛問你的是一個全世界的標準全世界有哪個民主國家發生了最近這八九個月以來民眾黨的中央黨部被搜索國民黨的"},{"start":361.26,"end":376.493,"text":"台南的黨部被搜索台北市黨部被搜索現在台南新北都有多少人有五個人被你們縮壓我現在問的是一個普世的價值全世界民主國家美國這樣共和黨執政他敢去搜索民主黨的這個黨部嗎"},{"start":378.214,"end":397.169,"text":"所以跟委員報告 這個違照屬押 違照提議這本來就是破壞民主法制的基石嘛所以這次貴大院也是不是在去年也通過了選罷法的修法就嚴懲就是這些違照屬押 違照這些的提議的這些的未經他們同意的 這些違照法所以這個本來就是"},{"start":400.231,"end":427.76,"text":"我現在要講的是你的歷史定位今天怎麼樣去捍衛台灣的法治跟人權我給你一個標準是說你去看看全世界的全世界的民主國家有哪一個民主國家的在野黨的黨部中央黨部像最近這八個多月以來被這樣搜索你們要經得去考驗那你如果還在意的話我講的話你還在意的話要想一想夜深人靜的時候想一想你的歷史定位是什麼"},{"start":428.373,"end":454.429,"text":"好 接下來司法處剛剛講的公正跟公平比例原則很重要嘛 對不對這是比例原則也很重要嘛 我問啊共諜案 民進黨連環報你們有沒有要好好去辦相對的比例原則 你說有死人去連署委照文書嘛 告知嘛 對不對這是重罪嗎國家安全這個才是國家安全法這個才是重罪法 七年以上啊"},{"start":456.422,"end":464.148,"text":"這邊五年以下就你現在用大砲打小鳥不只是5比0的問題耶需要去大收手大縮壓嗎這個沒有違反比例的原則個案不同啊個案不同這五個個案變成一個通案嘛對不對結果你五個通案的原則是什麼就是大收手大縮壓嘛不是這樣嗎"},{"start":480.715,"end":489.55,"text":"這個犯罪嫌疑重大當然有刑事司法101條的這些要件都發生嫌疑重大他的徒刑是五年以下他是重大犯罪嗎"},{"start":490.559,"end":511.06,"text":"你要好好辦 你去辦共諜案 民進黨的共諜案這完全是回到法律刑事訴訟法的法律得益的規定以及那個案情 以及那個偵查案罪所必要的已經有多少法界的人士 從學者到法官到檢察官 律師在提醒你嚴重違反這個比例原則 你都沒有聽進去嗎"},{"start":512.389,"end":521.528,"text":"不要再大砲倒小鳥了來 我們再看看以前的個案你從早上被問的同樣的案子以前為什麼沒有大搜索 沒有大收押"},{"start":523.127,"end":542.834,"text":"韓國瑜一千多個案子喔我想這個不起訴所分是在你那個人已經理由說得非常的清楚非常的清楚來 博定 你說理由來我們看看呢當初啊 綠營在高雄罷免高雄市長韓國瑜後來沒有起訴綠營地檢署的更高官第一個起訴書那個不起訴人在說什麼"},{"start":544.212,"end":571.137,"text":"他說在蒐集連署的過程裡面並沒有護意證系統等方式去核對跟比照身份證字號所以自義難去驅使說你要發覺有連署者是提議前就已經死亡的情形所以是被告等人根本就難以迎之刑死偽造文書罪當初這個檢察官是這樣提的這個理由現在存不存在"},{"start":572.048,"end":593.119,"text":"存在啊 再看看郭台銘 郭台銘更多耶郭台銘五千兩百七十一個 剛才民進黨在講他們比例比較低這個數目是這麼大耶這個案子第一個 沒有大搜索 更沒有大收押後來約談了三個主要的幹部對不對約談完以後 今年三月份 聽各位喔上個月 這個剛剛簽結喔"},{"start":596.645,"end":617.234,"text":"這兩個案子都沒事 結果你現在不只有事 你還大縮手大縮鴨你是不是有嚴重違反法律的比例原則好來 再看下一個人民現在更生氣的是什麼你有很多大案子要辦 我剛才說的你還要去辦 民進黨這個共諜案聯環報 這個不是影響更大 第二個打詐的案子啊今年三月份"},{"start":621.96,"end":643.437,"text":"台灣人民被騙了一萬六千多件損失的錢高達七十一億這每個案子可能都是破一個家庭甚至是幾個人可能會想不開的事情這多嚴重啊莫定 我們不要講多啦你跟我我們如果被騙個十萬塊你可能還了幾十天 一輩子搞不好都記得有些人是一輩子的居蓄 關財本都不見了"},{"start":644.773,"end":672.926,"text":"整個可能都家破人亡了你們有好好去打仗嗎你多一點心思去辦這個事嘛不是 我現在跟你講是比較你現在花了那麼多的人力這個打仗本來就是我們現在整個辦單人員就全力在這打仗所以那個成果我整個檢察官跟警方非常的認真在辦這個很辛苦嘛可是第一個是所以你現在把人力你現在把人力 把減掉人力移出去搞"},{"start":675.307,"end":702.106,"text":"去搞這個偽造文書稅你這樣不是對不起你們檢察官記不起調查局的人員嗎抓重點做嘛 這個是不是更重要是不是人民現在就說 我代表人民在問你你把打詐的事情做好不要把人力分出去做一些人民生氣的事情反正有任何的犯罪 犯罪嫌疑我想辦案人員都會 都會積極的你的人力有限嘛 對不對輕重緩急嘛 你現在這個該重的地方不重 該輕的不輕你怎麼可以不辦呢"},{"start":705.39,"end":716.576,"text":"你有辦啦 所以第一個公平那第二個就是委婉比例原則嘛你把最重要的事情多做才是重要的共諜案跟打詐來 最後我最後做一個最後做一個適合三個要求基於法律的平等原則不要雙標辦案不要讓人家覺得說案子碰到民進黨就轉彎了"},{"start":725.765,"end":746.887,"text":"所以請一座內你針對藍綠你在辦的狀況是怎麼樣給本席一個報告第二個依照比例原則你既然你在辦的這個偽造文書過往的人他這個連署請你把共諜案你們目前做到什麼程度也跟本席報告一下我現在不是只有本席要的全民現在盯著你們在看另外呢"},{"start":747.97,"end":771.691,"text":"各界現在在講 政府是濫用司法檢調的這個潛力 以大砲打小奶這個行徑我覺得不是只有對立法院負責你們應該公開開個記者會 也提出個說明以示眾議 不要讓你們基層的檢察官跟調查員接著說你們做長官的高高在上 聽不到基層的聲音也沒有去捍衛他們的這個形象一個禮拜都要一個公開說明 可以嗎"},{"start":777.049,"end":796.374,"text":"主席我要求這三個特別是第三項請給本席一個八卦然後你們對外要明確的說明好不好跟全民做個交代就麻煩照剛委員所說的處理我們年紀差不多啦台灣真的是在一個非常危險的狀況我們年輕的時候那麼辛辛苦苦建立的民主法治人權"},{"start":798.807,"end":804.152,"text":"趕快踩煞車 怎麼讓他回到一個公正公平好不好 那這我留給你啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1240,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時12分）請部長跟局長。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長、局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，司法最基本的一定是要公正、公平，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個同意。"],["張委員啓楷：我看了一下目前罷免案的連署，兩邊去檢舉之後，關於中選會告發的案子，其中罷藍的（就是民進黨連署的）有15個案子，再加高虹安1案一共16個案子；相對這邊國民黨罷民進黨的17個案子，16比17。結果目前已經辦的，國民黨已經被辦了5個案子，0比5，這個有符合司法的公正跟公平嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件的案情不一樣，案情不一樣，我也不會干涉介入，我也沒有去參與了解這些事。"],["張委員啓楷：你有聽到你們基層的檢察官說你們這樣是不是變成司法打手了，怎麼會這麼不公平？你看，明明加起來是16比17，你再怎麼取樣都不可能出現這麼不公平吧！剛剛局長的意思，你剛才的意思是法務部檢察官這邊都沒有發查，你現在是把責任推給檢察官這邊嗎？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，檢察官有發查，但是應該是沒有全部，我們現在……"],["張委員啓楷：沒發查，你為什麼是0比5呢？為什麼出現0比5？你的意思是……"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，如果你有注意到的話，其實現在發動偵辦的都是一些死亡連署的狀況……"],["張委員啓楷：基隆林沛祥那一百一十多個不是死亡連署是什麼？"],["陳局長白立：那個不是，那個不是死亡連署，那個不是死亡連署。"],["張委員啓楷：他沒有任何的死亡連署嗎？來，你看……"],["陳局長白立：它不是。"],["張委員啓楷：你看中選會，來，你看中選會告發的條件是什麼？一件以上有涉及死亡連署或有其他疑似偽造的狀況，這裡面有多少？16個案，15加1包括高虹安的，有多少是有死亡連署的，你目前有辦一個案子給我看，有沒有？"],["陳局長白立：有，我們現在辦的都是死亡連署的，因為死亡連署……"],["張委員啓楷：你的意思是，沒有、沒有、沒有，局長……"],["陳局長白立：死亡連署就是一個很明顯的偽造。"],["張委員啓楷：你不要硬拗，不要硬拗，你不要閃避，不要閃避。這16個案子裡面，沒有任何一個案子是有死亡連署的嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個要看個案的內容……"],["張委員啓楷：要看個案？藍軍這邊你已經辦了5個，另一邊16個，我問你16個裡面沒有任何一個有死亡連署嗎？"],["陳局長白立：其實對我們來說沒有藍綠……"],["張委員啓楷：這個要經得起考驗喔。"],["陳局長白立：這個非常經得起考驗，對我們來說其實是沒有藍綠，我們只是從死亡連署人數太多的這些案件，可能檢察官覺得這個也是比較嚴重的，所以優先發動偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，中選會是有1個以上死亡連署就告發了，這是第一個，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，那你應該同時辦啊，你有嗎？到目前……"],["陳局長白立：有啊，我們有在辦啊，你說基隆那一件……"],["張委員啓楷：你有在辦，辦到一個5比0？局長，局長，局長，你能不能給我一個答案？局長，現在這個司法的天秤嚴重傾斜嘛，用膝蓋看也知道，現在就是說你到底什麼時候要辦？你要公平嘛！我現在不是講藍綠的問題，司法是要公正跟公平的，什麼時候綠的才要辦？"],["陳局長白立：我們很同意，我們很同意委員說司法要公平，我們不是講藍綠。"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣有公平嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們現在就是針對……如果委員去看那些死亡連署的狀況，你就會知道問題出在哪裡。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！我就問你嘛，綠的都沒有死亡連署嗎？都沒有是嗎？"],["陳局長白立：對我們……"],["張委員啓楷：15加1，包括高虹安這個案子，罷藍的15個案子都沒有嗎？現在在國會殿堂，現在是對著全民講話，局長。"],["陳局長白立：是，我知道、我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：現在要檢驗兩個，你什麼時候開始辦綠？"],["陳局長白立：一定禁得起考驗。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你在辦的時候有多少個有死亡連署是綠的發起的？"],["陳局長白立：一定禁得起考驗、一定禁得起考驗。"],["張委員啓楷：好，禁得起考驗，全民正在看你，你目前已經禁不起考驗了，0比5……"],["陳局長白立：不會啊！我們目前禁得起考驗。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來就看你的進度。","部長，我問你一下，我們的年紀都差不多，我跟你講一個比較沉重的事情，我們這個年紀經過戒嚴到解嚴，多少人為了臺灣的民主、法治、人權，不要說流血、流汗，連性命都丟了，像鄭南榕為了爭取言論自由百分之百，你們現在辦這個案子這樣辦，不只是沒有公正、沒有公平，我問你一個最簡單的，你應該是一個有民主素養的法務部長，全世界的民主國家當中，除了臺灣這一次國民黨的臺北市黨部被你們搜索了，之前連柯文哲家裡面跟民眾黨的中央黨部都被你們搜索了，在你的腦海裡面，全世界民主國家有哪一個國家檢調去搜索在野黨的辦公室，有沒有？舉一個例子給我聽！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對這個是沒有研究，但是我們的案件本來就是……"],["張委員啓楷：美國如果共和黨執政敢去搜索民主黨任何一個辦公室……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這是權力分立，有犯罪嫌疑要搜索的話，這是要跟法院聲請的，如果法院認為沒有搜索的必要，那就……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我說我們的年紀差不多，我們經歷了整個民主進程，你現在「倒退攄」了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有「倒退攄」啦！"],["張委員啓楷：對你的歷史定位，這是一個傷害，你要想辦法去補破網。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還是一直往前邁進啦！"],["張委員啓楷：往前邁進？我剛剛問你的是一個全世界的標準，全世界有哪個民主國家發生像最近這八、九個月以來，民眾黨的中央黨部被搜索、國民黨的臺南黨部被搜索及臺北市黨部被搜索，現在臺南、新北有5個人被你們收押，我現在問的是一個普世價值，全世界的民主國家當中，美國現在是共和黨執政，他敢去搜索民主黨的黨部嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，偽造署押、偽造提議，這本來就是破壞民主法治的基石嘛！所以這次大院在去年也通過了選罷法的修法，嚴懲這些偽造署押、偽造提議等這些未經他們同意的偽造。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在跟你講的，我再跟你講一次……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來就是……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在說的是你的歷史定位……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們的歷史潮流……"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼樣去捍衛臺灣的法治跟人權，我給你一個標準是說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有人可以容許這個偽造署押……"],["張委員啓楷：你去看看全世界的民主國家，有哪一個民主國家的在野黨黨部、中央黨部像最近這八個多月以來被這樣搜索，你們要禁得起考驗。你如果還在意的話，我講的話你還在意的話，你要想一想，夜深人靜的時候想一想你的歷史定位是什麼。","接下來，司法除了剛剛講的公正跟公平，比例原則很重要，對不對？比例原則也很重要嘛。關於共諜案，民進黨共諜案連環爆，你們有沒有好好去辦？相對的比例原則，你說有死人去連署，這是偽造文書、個資嘛，對不對？這是重罪嗎？國家安全、國家安全法這個才是重罪吧，七年以上啊！這邊是五年以下啊！結果你現在用大砲打小鳥，不只是5比0的問題，有需要去大搜索、大收押嗎？這個有沒有違反比例原則？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案不同啦。"],["張委員啓楷：個案不同？這5個個案變成1個通案嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是通案……"],["張委員啓楷：結果5個通案的原則是什麼？就是大搜索、大收押嘛！不是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個犯罪嫌疑重大，有刑事訴訟法第一百零一條的這些要件的話，向法院聲請……"],["張委員啓楷：嫌疑重大？他的徒刑是五年以下，他是重大犯罪嗎？你要好好辦，你去辦共諜案、民進黨的共諜案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於能不能羈押，沒有說五年以下就不能羈押，這完全是回到法律、刑事訴訟法的法律規定以及案情、偵查犯罪所必要的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，已經有多少法界的人士，從學者到法官跟檢察官、律師在提醒你，嚴重違反比例原則，你都沒有聽進去嗎？不要再用大砲打小鳥了！","我們再看看以前的個案，你從早上被問的，同樣的案子以前為什麼沒有大搜索、沒有大收押？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有……"],["張委員啓楷：韓國瑜，一千多個案子哦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個不起訴處分的理由說得非常清楚、非常的清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說到理由，我們來看看，當初綠營在高雄罷免高雄市長韓國瑜，後來沒有起訴，高雄地檢署檢察官在不起訴書裡面說什麼？他說，在收集連署的過程裡面並沒有戶役政系統等方式去查核比對身分證字號，自亦難期許得以發覺有連署者在提議前就已經死亡的情形，所以被告等人根本就難繩以行使偽造文書罪。當初這個檢察官是提這個理由，現在存不存在？存在啊！再看看郭台銘，郭台銘更多耶！郭台銘的部分有5,271個，民進黨說他們的比例比較低，這個數目字這麼大耶！這個案子第一個，沒有大搜索，更沒有大收押，後來約談了3個主要的幹部，對不對？約談完以後，今年3月份、上個月剛剛簽結，這兩個案子都沒事，結果你現在不只有事，你要大搜索、大收押，你是不是嚴重違反法律的比例原則？","再看下一個，人民現在更生氣的是什麼？你有很多大案子要辦，我剛才說了，你好好去辦民進黨這個共諜案，連環爆這個不是影響更大？第二個是打詐的案子，今年3月份，臺灣人民被騙了一萬六千多件，損失的錢高達71億，這每一個案子可能都會讓一個家庭破碎，甚至是幾個人可能會想不開的事情，這多嚴重啊！部長，我們不要講多啦，你跟我如果被騙個10萬塊，你可能會煩惱好幾天，一輩子搞不好都記得，有些人是一輩子的積蓄、棺材本都不見了，整個家可能就家破人亡了，你們有好好去打詐嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你多一點心思去辦這個事情嘛，我現在跟你講的是比較，你現在花了那麼多的人力，部長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，關於打詐，本來我們現在整個辦案人員就是全力在打詐，所以打詐的成果……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道檢察官跟警方非常認真在辦，很辛苦嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們也要對這些打詐英雄……"],["張委員啓楷：可是第一個是……所以你現在把人力、把檢調人力移去搞這個偽造文書罪，你這樣不是對不起你們檢察官、對不起調查局的人員嗎？抓重點做嘛！這個是不是更重要？是不是？我就是代表人民在問你，你把打詐的事情做好，不要把人力分出去做一些人民生氣的事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：反正有任何的犯罪、犯罪嫌疑，我想辦案人員都會積極去查辦。"],["張委員啓楷：你的人力有限嘛，對不對？有輕重緩急嘛，你現在該重的地方不重，該輕的不輕。"],["鄭部長銘謙：犯罪擺在你面前了，罪證明確的話，你怎麼可以不辦呢？"],["張委員啓楷：你有辦啊！所以第一個是公平，第二個就是違反比例原則嘛，你把最重要的事情都做才是重要的，即共諜案跟打詐。","我最後有三個要求：首先要基於法律的平等原則，不要雙標辦案，不要讓人家覺得案子碰到民進黨就轉彎了，所以針對藍、綠，你現在辦的狀況是怎麼樣？請於一週內給本席一個報告。第二個，依照比例原則，既然你在辦這個偽造文書、過往的人的連署，請你把共諜案你們目前做到什麼程度也跟本席報告一下，現在不是只有本席要的，全民現在也盯著你們在看。另外，各界現在在講，政府是濫用司法檢調的權力，這個行徑是以大砲打小鳥，我覺得不是只有對立法院負責，你們應該公開開個記者會提出說明，以釋眾疑，不要讓你們基層的檢察官跟調查員覺得你們做長官的高高在上、聽不到基層的聲音、也沒有去捍衛他們的形象，一個禮拜做一個對外公開說明，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：可以？OK。主席，我要求這三個，特別是第三項，請給本席一個報告，然後你們對外也要有明確的說明，好不好？跟全民做個交代。"],["主席：好，就麻煩照剛剛委員所說的處理。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們的年紀真的都差不多啦！臺灣真的是在一個非常危險的狀況，我們年輕的時候那麼辛辛苦苦建立的民主、法治、人權，來得及，趕快踩煞車！怎麼讓它回到一個公正、公平，好不好？我們一起努力一下啦！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},{"id":"160424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8e387e718e131eb60d5119736a8127fe72f7633afc40a593b4763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"12:02:21 - 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我們請防護政部長跟調查局陳局長好 麻煩政部長 局長"},{"start":28.646,"end":46.765,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想請教一下這段時間我們對於這個檢調的辦方式覺得十分的困惑就是檢調單位對於國民黨罷免綠委的連署動作如臨大敵不但大動作搜索我們國民黨的地方黨部"},{"start":47.526,"end":61.281,"text":"還對我們台北市黨部的主委黃磊錦如深壓禁建結果法院最後也判決說無任何證據可證其涉案甚至連經手提人名冊的事實都不存在所以這種"},{"start":62.022,"end":81.217,"text":"先射箭後劃靶的這種荒唐巨馬象徵著警察軍的一個濫用檢察軍的一個濫用更是對民主政治的一個踐踏而且讓大家感到困惑的是對於參與聯署的年輕人要50萬交保甚至有的被鮮壓但是對於涉及共諜案"},{"start":82.458,"end":89.703,"text":"我們的前立法院院長的辦公室的助理設共諜案的才20萬交保所以請問一下部長為什麼可以有這樣子的一個差別"},{"start":94.351,"end":113.187,"text":"跟委員報告因為是個案的一個不同就像共諜案也有人收押嘛共諜案收押是在他離開了這個地方被調查大概一年半之後後與委員的壓力才收押的那個案的情節也不同那我也沒有參與過辦案那請問部長你沒有參與你又說這是個案那我想請教你你認為涉嫌共諜而且危害到國家安全比較重要"},{"start":122.334,"end":147.053,"text":"還是這個偽造文書比較重要哪個情節比較重大這個個案的情節本來就不一樣嘛所以供諜不是有收押的嗎有好幾個標籤那請問一下我剛剛提到的原來在我們前立法院長游錫坤辦公室的助理盛楚英他用20萬交保他原來在立法院院長的辦公室喔那涉及供諜結果他居然可以這樣輕輕放過用20萬交保部長剛剛我聽到你說這是個案"},{"start":150.495,"end":163.225,"text":"好 那請問個案的話 共諜案表示比較不重要但是我們被因為連署疑似 疑似偽造文書的就生壓境界有好幾位 我們最近有四個都收押了嘛"},{"start":164.105,"end":172.008,"text":"對不對但是這四個收押是在一年半他離職一年半之後礙於輿論的壓力才收押的所以如果還是這樣子一個雙標的存在其實人民對司法真的沒有辦法信服沒有雙標的話我們覺得好我剛剛有問部長嘛到底你覺得國家安全比較重要還是涉及偽造文書比較重要為什麼可以這樣子"},{"start":189.394,"end":209.645,"text":"委召人數五十萬交保涉及供點二十萬交保部長我很尊重您我覺得這個部分您也是這方面的事實上您一路上來您在法務部的各個位置都歷練過相信您對於這樣子一個標準您自然心中有一個定見"},{"start":210.726,"end":228.137,"text":"但是我想全國人民都在看看我們的檢調系統看我們的法務系統要怎麼來去處理這樣子一個案子可是我們目前看到都是這種雙重標準而且半藍不半綠所以這一次我們看到的這些檢調的刀鋒根本就是針對在野黨"},{"start":229.258,"end":246.218,"text":"要不然的話不會用這樣的一個方式我們現在還有這個國民黨的黨部的副主委在收押禁建還有國民黨黨部的同仁在收押禁建然後接下來這個新北市黨部已經交保的新北市的地檢署又說要提出這個抗告"},{"start":248.26,"end":266.648,"text":"所以讓人家覺得就是小案大辦甚至高雄的這個領銜人徐尚賢他爸爸也提到了說這根本就是小鳥大炮打小鳥的一個狀況為什麼我們的檢調系統我們的法務系統會讓人民這樣的不幸福我覺得這個部分我覺得法務部真的要好好的來檢討一下"},{"start":268.52,"end":293.519,"text":"這個法官都准 這個搜索票是法官准的那個羈押也是法官剛剛我想王宏威委員有跟您提到嘛我們的台北市黨部跟我們這個幾個區黨部是聯合辦公的所以針對霸雙無的案子呢是在市北還有在這個萬華中正可是卻搜索了中山大同而且帶著我們的黨員名冊這樣是可以的嗎"},{"start":294.212,"end":319.789,"text":"喔 這個是個案齁 那因為我對個案 我不清楚因為 就等於是個案喔也就是說我們現在如果在同一個共享辦公室辦公的話全部的人都要配合這個搜索嗎假設我今天就在一個共享辦公室那今天要調查A公司那我剩下的公司全部都要配合搜索嗎我有這個義務要配合搜索嗎可以拿走我們的名冊嗎你現在是要調查"},{"start":323.812,"end":335.964,"text":"霸雙無的連鎖案沒錯吧那是屬於市北跟這個中正萬華跟大同中山又有什麼關係怎麼可以用這樣的一個方式那另外呢我也請教這個陳局長"},{"start":338.567,"end":364.393,"text":"有關媒體報導就是有一天呢調查局忽然通知這個我們的外站的官員進行聯合線上視訊要求這個各外勤站還有權力偵辦罷免偽造及往生連署的案件喔那調查局在視訊中也特別的舉台南檢調辦林俊憲跟王定宇罷免造假的案子參與那當然我想參與視訊的人員"},{"start":366.573,"end":383.912,"text":"接下來就毛起來衝藍營的罷免的涉案喔而且調查局也為此提供專簽績效獎勵辦罷免案查詐騙有績效獎金嗎查供諜有績效獎金嗎為什麼查這個罷免連署的就有績效獎金沒有"},{"start":385.153,"end":410.485,"text":"沒有,是怎麼樣?沒有績效獎金那有這件事嗎?剛剛講的,有這樣子一個視訊會議嗎?但是沒有針對藍綠,對我們來說只有證據,沒有藍綠那請問一下,不管是部長,還有我們的局長在3月24號,我們就有去提告10位罷藍委的聯署人還有領銜團體,他們有偽造情勢的事情到現在快一個月了,一件都沒辦"},{"start":411.505,"end":416.954,"text":"但是呢現在罷綠委的呢一件一件的一直偵辦所以你剛剛講的沒有這個辦藍不辦綠的問題根本就是雙標"},{"start":421.86,"end":441.448,"text":"要不然為什麼我們從3月20日去提告的到現在都沒辦反而後面提告的已經都在甄辦了4月1號中選會提出來這樣子的一個告發之後馬上就如火如荼的到處搜索大搜索然後大這個大收壓那為什麼我們3月20日去提告到現在都一件都沒辦"},{"start":442.468,"end":465.06,"text":"我是不曉得委員提告的是哪些啦但是以調查局在執行目前在執行來講的話我們不會去管他藍的綠的我們就是只有管證據當天我們提告的有罷免這個尤浩的偽造情事的有罷免王宏威的偽造情事的有罷免丁薛忠的偽造情事甚至還罷免高宏安市長的偽造情事總共有10件"},{"start":465.981,"end":474.313,"text":"這個地檢署我們是到地檢署提告的所以到現在將近一個月都沒有提告但4月1號中選會才提出這樣的告發卻已經連續偵辦而且到處亂搜查而且剛剛我們也講過了針對我們黃綠主委的部分"},{"start":481.264,"end":508.353,"text":"事後根本查無完全事證不能因為他就是黨部的高層他就被這個懷疑是設法所以這次減調的這樣的一個動作已經引起所有民眾的一個憤怒了所以請局長針對這個部分說明我想我再次跟委員報告在我們的調查的過程裡面我們就是只有看證據不會去看他藍綠所以不管是藍的綠的只要有證據我們一律通通都會判那剛剛我提的"},{"start":510.054,"end":516.398,"text":"這個霸藍圍的部分我們去告發的到現在快一個月了為什麼都沒有那檢察官有發查的我們一定都是在偵查中那所以呢"},{"start":518.937,"end":539.272,"text":"所以發查的那些偵查中然後快賣是由你們自己決定要先查哪一件是由你們自己決定要蒐證啊這個部分要蒐證啊那請問要蒐證的狀況下為什麼沒辦法蒐證你看像後面的像前兩天呢這個什麼罷免那個我們林沛翔委員的有116件被告發"},{"start":540.373,"end":559.331,"text":"好 結果咧 不是去偵查 不是去搜索領銜人或霸團居然去找連署的人 問他有沒有連署這樣的執法是不是過當 而且是不是也是搞錯重點對啊 所以委員就是說 如果我們努力去做那你又說我們這個做了過頭"},{"start":562.173,"end":583.327,"text":"主長 你剛剛舉那個例子就是沒有顏色啊你剛剛提的那個就是我們沒有顏色我剛剛講的是說 人家去提告的部分你應該是要去找領銜人嘛 你應該去找霸團嘛你怎麼會去找連署人說 你有沒有去連署而且早上六點半就去人家家裡搜索"},{"start":584.227,"end":608.17,"text":"這樣叫做你們有查這個我們依照檢察官的指揮檢察官的指揮叫你們這樣做只要去查連署人 不用查領銜人 不用查霸團看個案的內容 我現在沒有辦法跟你說我想部長還有局長我覺得檢調應該要司法公正請還給我們人民一個信任真的不要再這樣子辦男不辦女我們本來就是依法正辦 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1172,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（12時2分）謝謝主席，我們請法務部鄭部長跟調查局陳局長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長、陳局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。部長，我想請教一下，這段時間我們對於檢調的辦案方式覺得十分的困惑，就是檢調單位對於國民黨罷免綠委的連署動作如臨大敵，不但大動作搜索我們國民黨的地方黨部，還對我們臺北市黨部主委黃呂錦茹聲押禁見，結果法院最後也判決無任何證據可證其涉案，甚至連經手提議人名冊的事實都不存在，所以這種先射箭後畫靶的荒唐劇碼，象徵警察權的濫用、檢察權的濫用，更是對民主政治的一個踐踏。而且讓大家感到困惑的是，對於參與連署的年輕人要50萬交保，甚至有的被聲押，但是對於涉及共諜案，前立法院院長辦公室助理涉共諜案的才20萬交保，所以請問一下部長，為什麼可以有這樣的一個差別？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為是個案的不同，就像共諜案也有人被收押嘛……"],["許委員宇甄：共諜案收押是在他離開了這個地方，被調查大概一年半之後……"],["鄭部長銘謙：有的人是收押……"],["許委員宇甄：迫於輿論的壓力才收押的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有的人是交保，個案的情節不同，我也沒有參與辦案，我對案件……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，你沒有參與，你又說這是個案，那我想請教你，你認為涉嫌共諜且危害到國家安全比較重要，還是偽造文書比較重要？哪個情節比較重大？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的情節本來就不一樣嘛，所以共諜不是有收押了嗎？有好幾個……"],["許委員宇甄：好，那請問一下，我剛剛提到的，前立法院長游錫堃辦公室的助理盛礎纓用20萬交保，他原來在立法院院長辦公室喔，涉及共諜案結果居然可以這樣輕輕放過，用20萬交保。部長，剛剛我聽到您說這是個案。好，如果是個案的話，是不是表示共諜案比較不重要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我沒有講說共諜案不重要……"],["許委員宇甄：但是我們因為連署疑似偽造文書的就聲押禁見……"],["鄭部長銘謙：共諜案的有好幾位，最近有4個都收押了嘛，對不對？"],["許委員宇甄：對，這4個收押是在一年半，他離職一年半之後，礙於輿論的壓力才收押的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們對共諜案很重視，所以才會被偵辦、被聲押，而且法官也准了……"],["許委員宇甄：如果還是這樣子有雙標的存在……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有雙標！"],["許委員宇甄：其實人民對司法真的沒有辦法信服！沒有雙標的話，我剛剛有問部長嘛，到底你覺得國家安全比較重要還是涉及偽造文書比較重要？為什麼可以這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個共諜涉及國家安全……"],["許委員宇甄：偽造文書50萬交保，涉及共諜20萬交保……"],["鄭部長銘謙：連署涉及民主政治的基礎嘛，對不對？這個都很重要啊！"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我很尊重您，我覺得在這個部分，您也是這方面的……事實上，您一路上來，您在法務部的各個位置都歷練過，相信對於這樣的一個標準，您自然心中有一個定見，但是我想全國人民都在看，看我們的檢調系統、看我們的法務系統要怎麼去處理這樣的一個案子，可是目前看到都是這種雙重標準，而且辦藍不辦綠喔！所以，這一次我們看到，檢調的刀鋒根本就是針對在野黨，要不然的話，不會用這樣的一個方式。現在還有國民黨黨部的副主委在收押禁見，還有國民黨黨部的同仁在收押禁見，接下來對於新北市黨部已經交保的，新北地檢署又說要提出抗告，讓人家覺得就是小案大辦，甚至高雄的領銜人徐尚賢，他爸爸也提到說，這根本就是大炮打小鳥的狀況。為什麼我們的檢調系統、我們的法務系統會讓人民這樣不信服？這個部分我覺得法務部真的要好好地檢討一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：搜索票是法官准的，至於羈押也是法官裁定……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛我想王鴻薇委員也有提到，我們的臺北市黨部跟幾個區黨部是聯合辦公的，罷雙吳的案子是在士（林）北（投）還有萬華中正，可是卻搜索了中山大同，而且帶走我們的黨員名冊，這樣是可以的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案，因為對個案我就不清楚，因為……"],["許委員宇甄：好，部長，那又是個案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來就是個案，因為是偵查中的，是不是可以在哪些……"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，我們現在如果在同一個共享辦公室辦公的話，全部的人都要配合這個搜索嗎？假設我今天就在一個共享辦公室，今天要調查A公司，那剩下的公司全部都要配合搜索嗎？我有這個義務要配合搜索嗎？可以拿走我們的名冊嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個搜索本來就是依法院核准的搜索票當初的……"],["許委員宇甄：你現在是要調查罷雙吳的連署案，沒錯吧？那是屬於士北跟中正萬華，跟大同中山又有什麼關係，怎麼可以用這樣的方式？","另外，我也請教陳局長，根據媒體報導，有一天調查局忽然通知外站的官員進行聯合線上視訊，要求各外勤站全力偵辦罷免偽造及往生連署的案件，調查局在視訊中也特別舉臺南檢調辦林俊憲跟王定宇罷免造假的案子。當然我想參與視訊的人員，接下來就卯起來衝藍營罷免的涉案，而且調查局也為此提供專簽績效獎勵辦罷免案。查詐騙有績效獎金嗎？查共諜有績效獎金嗎？為什麼查罷免連署的就有績效獎金？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有是怎麼樣？"],["陳局長白立：沒有績效獎金。"],["許委員宇甄：那有剛剛講的這件事嗎？有這樣一個視訊會議嗎？"],["陳局長白立：有，有這件事情，但是沒有針對藍綠，對我們來說只有證據沒有藍綠。"],["許委員宇甄：那請問一下不管是部長還是局長，3月24號我們就去提告10位罷藍委的連署人還有領銜團體有偽造的情事，到現在快一個月了，一件都沒辦，但是現在罷綠委的一件一件一直偵辦，所以您剛剛講的，沒有辦藍不辦綠的問題，根本就是雙標。要不然為什麼我們3月24號去提告的到現在都沒辦，反而後面提告的已經都在偵辦了，4月1號中選會提出告發之後，馬上就如火如荼的到處大搜索、大收押，為什麼我們3月24號去提告的，到現在一件都沒辦？"],["陳局長白立：我不曉得委員提告的是哪些，但是以調查局目前的執行來講，我們不會去管他藍的綠的，我們就是只有管證據而已。"],["許委員宇甄：好，當天我們提告的有罷免游顥偽造情事的，有罷免王鴻薇偽造情事的，有罷免丁學忠偽造情事的，甚至還有罷免高虹安市長偽造情事的，總共有10件。我們是到地檢署去提告的，到現在將近一個月都沒有提報……"],["陳局長白立：那應該就是在偵查中。"],["許委員宇甄：但4月1號中選會才提出告發，卻已經連續偵辦，而且到處亂搜索，剛剛我們也講過了，針對我們黃呂主委的部分，事後根本查無完全事證，不能因為他是黨部的高層就被懷疑是涉法，這次檢調的動作已經引起所有民眾的憤怒了，所以請局長針對這個部分說明。"],["陳局長白立：我再次跟委員報告，在我們調查的過程裡面，我們就只有看證據，不會去看他藍綠，所以不管是藍的、綠的，只要有證據，我們一律通通都會偵辦。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那剛剛我提的罷藍委的部分，我們去告發到現在快一個月了，為什麼都沒有辦？"],["陳局長白立：檢察官有發查的，我們一定都是在偵查中。"],["許委員宇甄：那所以呢？所以發查的，你們現在在偵查中……"],["陳局長白立：那就要蒐證啊！"],["許委員宇甄：然後快慢是由你們自己決定，要先查哪一件也是由你們自己決定？"],["陳局長白立：要蒐證，這個部分要蒐證。"],["許委員宇甄：那請問要蒐證的狀況下，為什麼沒辦法蒐證？"],["陳局長白立：其實我們也很多都在執行……"],["許委員宇甄：你看像後面的，像前兩天罷免我們林沛祥委員的有116件被告發，結果咧？不是去搜索領銜人或罷團，居然去找連署的人問他有沒有連署，這樣的執法是不是過當、是不是也搞錯重點？"],["陳局長白立：對啊，委員，如果我們努力去做，你又說我們這邊做得過頭；你說我們分顏色，你剛剛舉那個例子，就證明我們沒有顏色啊！"],["許委員宇甄：局長，局長，局長，你現在講的話都有錄影，你要負責喔……"],["陳局長白立：你剛剛提的那個就是我們沒有顏色，其實我們還是都照做……"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛講的是說，關於人家去提告的部分，你應該是要去查領銜人嘛、你應該去查罷團嘛，你怎麼會去找連署人問你有沒有去連署，而且早上六點半就去人家家裡搜索，這樣叫做你們有查？"],["陳局長白立：這個我們依照檢察官的指揮，對，這個我們依照檢察官的指揮。"],["許委員宇甄：檢察官的指揮？檢察官的指揮叫你們這樣做，只要去查連署人，不用查領銜人、不用查罷團？"],["陳局長白立：看個案的內容，我現在沒有辦法跟你說。"],["許委員宇甄：部長還有局長，我覺得檢調應該要司法公正，請還給我們人民一個信任，真的不要再這樣辦藍不辦綠。謝謝。"],["陳局長白立：會，我們會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們本來就是依法偵辦，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},{"id":"160423","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8220bf232a112675ed5119736a8127fe72f7633afc40a593b474f7bb0d3e6380e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:37:21 - 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謝謝主席 各位委員有請法務部部長麻煩部長還有調查局局長部長好 局長好"},{"start":31.367,"end":54.778,"text":"我們看這個最近的這個共諜案這個我們總統辦公室的之一吳尚儀這個涉及共諜案然後這個吳釗燮他的前助理也就在外交部國安會他的助理"},{"start":55.908,"end":81.427,"text":"姿意的身份都很高都是驚傲人員姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思演還有這個新北市議員李儀典"},{"start":83.547,"end":108.981,"text":"當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室"},{"start":113.782,"end":142.379,"text":"沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官"},{"start":143.527,"end":168.589,"text":"的資料裡面顯示得認明良真犯違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的"},{"start":170.785,"end":189.836,"text":"有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個這個依法來自寫"},{"start":196.141,"end":217.731,"text":"犯難不犯例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文"},{"start":219.452,"end":247.383,"text":"個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借植物上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條"},{"start":249.602,"end":271.855,"text":"公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項 第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核"},{"start":273.078,"end":302.195,"text":"公務 選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務"},{"start":303.783,"end":328.645,"text":"更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍"},{"start":332.342,"end":359.1,"text":"戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長"},{"start":363.325,"end":372.53,"text":"局長 調查局局長 怎麼樣本來就要去查 去問他因為我父親知道看不出來啊"},{"start":374.345,"end":390.578,"text":"謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部"},{"start":394.458,"end":414.038,"text":"這個你說當然你一定回答說這個個案不便回答但是法律的規定最起碼有責任有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解所有的代法局能夠了解相關的法規好不好有 我們現在就是依這個法在執行好 謝謝 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1009,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時37分）主席、各位委員，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有調查局局長。"],["主席：局長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好、局長好。我們看最近這個共諜案，總統辦公室諮議吳尚雨涉及共諜案；吳釗燮的前助理，也就是在外交部、國安會的助理，他們身分都很高，都是機要人員、諮議，諮議九職等的身分很高，也涉及共諜案。當然除了這個之外還有其他的，譬如說民進黨民主學院前副主任邱世元，還有新北市議員李余典，以及其他曾經當過立委助理的都涉及共諜案。我們就看這些共諜案，無論是外交部或是國安會還是總統府，這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索，也沒有搜索民進黨的辦公室，都沒有去搜索。但是我們看花蓮縣政府民政處的處長──明良臻，他們不但搜索花蓮縣政府，而且還羈押明良臻處長，花蓮地方法院裁定的理由有三點，在檢察官的資料裡面顯示，得認明良臻犯違反個人資料保護法第四十四條、第四十一條之公務員假借職務上機會非法利用個人資料罪，嫌疑重大。請問一下部長，過去涉及個人資料保護法、違反個資法的有哪些是去搜索然後羈押的？可以提出相關的案例嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我這邊沒有，我手上沒有這部分的資料。我想以這個個案來講，檢察官有跟法院聲請搜索，法官有核准搜索票，依法執行……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道這個就是辦藍不辦綠，何況是共諜案！這麼嚴重耶！個人資料保護法有嚴重到要搜索還要羈押？寫得很明確啊，依照個人資料保護法，好，我們就來看條文，個人資料保護法第四十一條，這是剛才提的條文，意圖為自己或第三人不法之利益或損害他人之利益，而違反這些條文規定……處五年以下有期徒刑。我們看個人資料保護法第四十四條，公務員假借職務上的權力，加重其刑；個人資料保護法第十六條，公務機關對個人資料之利用，除第六條第一項……第六條就是那個醫院的部分，其他有下列情形者，得為特定目的外之利用：法律明文規定。","公職人員選舉罷免法第七十六條本來就是要去查核，選委會透過相關的戶政人員本來就要去查對到底是不是他本人，針對個資資料對不對，這本來就要去查對，選舉委員會收到罷免案，提議人就要去查這個身分資料到底對不對，這是法律的義務。更重要的，大家比較沒有注意的，公職人員選舉罷免法第七十七條，現役軍人、服替代役之現役役男或公務人員，不得為罷免案的提議人。光看這個戶籍資料，早期我們的戶籍資料會有職業欄，現在戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了，沒有職業欄了，那他是不是現役軍人要去查核啊！他是不是替代役要查核啊！他是不是公務人員要查核啊！他是依法去查核，結果被稱為查水表，然後要搜索、羈押。部長、調查局局長怎麼樣？本來就要去查的，本來就要問啊！因為戶籍資料看不出來啊！"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員，關於個案偵查的內容，我無法在這邊說明……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，你們都會這樣回答……"],["陳局長白立：不過也謝謝委員剛才提到的，個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑，而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["陳局長白立：所以也謝謝委員提醒這部分法條的規定。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個要請法務部，當然你一定回答這個是個案，你不便回答，但是法律的規定，最起碼有責任、有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解，讓調查局能夠了解相關的法規，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：有，我們現在就是依這個法在執行。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在就依照先前宣告，處理臨時提案共一案，宣讀後再進行處理。","今日（04/21）本（司法及法制委員）會邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。詎料，國安會竟於未經主席准假，未派員到會列席。","1.我國近期接連爆出共諜案，執政黨府院黨皆淪陷。從2017年5月24日吳釗燮擔任總統府秘書長、2018年2月26日外交部部長、甚至現在擔任國家安全會議秘書長，共諜皆隨侍左右，甚至總統侍衛室也淪陷，可說敵人就在本能寺。然國安會竟未到會列席，如此心虛且藐視國會之行為令人瞠目結舌且不齒。","2.國家安全會議組織法第8條「國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院之監督，國家安全局組織另以法律定之。」本會依法監督國安會，自無爭議。","3.《中央行政機關組織基準法》第三條：","一、機關：就法定事務，有決定並表示國家意思於外部，而依組織法律或命令（以下簡稱組織法規）設立，行使公權力之組織。","國安會既為機關且下轄國安局，所謂「諮詢機關」實屬矛盾。","爰此決議如下：","1.國家安全會議未經本會輪值召委同意，拒絕到會接受監督，藐視本會應予譴責。","2.國家安全會議應於今日12：00前派員列席本會報告。","提案人：黃國昌　　林倩綺　　王鴻薇"],["主席：謝謝。請問提案委員有無補充說明？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有。"],["主席：好。針對臨時提案，請問機關有無其他意見或說明？（無）沒有。","請問在場委員有無異議或是有意見補充？"],["王委員義川：有！"],["主席：王委員。"],["王委員義川：坐在這裡發言就可以了？好。","我再詢問一次我們司法法制委員會的同仁，你們有沒有收到國家安全會議的請假書函？可以回答嗎？你們剛剛10點多回答我都沒有，對不對？"],["張主任秘書智為：對，他們有發文，但是我們沒收文。"],["王委員義川：你們沒收到，是不是？"],["張主任秘書智為：我們沒收文。"],["王委員義川：好。2025年4月18號16點39分18秒，立法院司法法制委員會收文確認。你們自己收了，你們的電子公文自己收了。然後我剛剛問你，主席還叫你們去查，你們都收了耶，你們都收了公文，然後主席叫你們去查，查完之後你說你們都沒收到，我剛剛10點多問你，你們說沒收到。然後吳宗憲委員辦公室是在2025年4月18號16點38分50秒收到了。"],["主席：沒有！沒有這種事情！"],["王委員義川：收文方確認。"],["主席：沒有啊！"],["陳委員培瑜：有啊，這裡啊，電子公文收發系統啊！"],["主席：我們這邊沒有收。"],["王委員義川：那誰幫你們收了？"],["主席：而且我已經說明得非常清楚了……"],["沈委員發惠：……舌頭長在你嘴巴……"],["主席：當天有自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室，我辦公室……"],["王委員義川：召委，我不為難你……"],["主席：我辦公室的人問他要做什麼，他說要請假。然後他就問了那位國安會的人：請問有沒有跟召委說？他說：沒有。那我們同仁就拒收，這個我剛剛在現場有跟王委員報告過。"],["王委員義川：這個我9點多有聽到，我現在只是要確認司法及法制委員會的同仁在禮拜五沒有收到任何的電子公文？你們也沒有任何的確認，對嗎？我剛剛10點多問一次，你們說對，我現在問你們又說對。要確定喔？所有收文的紀錄都在上面。"],["沈委員發惠：這叫周萬來解釋一下！叫周萬來來解釋為什麼會這樣，當天他們就收到收文方確認了。"],["主席：我想我這邊就是從頭到尾沒有來跟我請假就對了，講一個最簡單的，我不管國安會今天跟誰請假，各位很多人也都做過召委，如果今天機關的人來，連我他們都不不來理我，那我今天不管他跟誰請假啊，就是沒有人來跟我請假。以上。","好，吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，剛剛您不是說國安會有派人到您辦公室要跟您請假嗎？這不是剛剛您說的？您現在又說沒有人來跟您請假。"],["主席：我再說一次，他沒有來找我。有一天……"],["吳委員思瑤：到您的辦公室不是要找委員嗎？"],["主席：吳委員，我先說清楚，吳委員不要在那邊……"],["吳委員思瑤：不是、不是，我想要釐清……"],["主席：不要在那邊搞不清楚，事實只有我清楚……"],["吳委員思瑤：因為剛剛您說的啊！"],["主席：我跟各位報告，我說清楚一下。第一個，有一位自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室，拿了一個信封袋，然後我助理問他「你是誰？有什麼事？」，因為他事先完全沒有跟我們通知，然後這位自稱是國安會的人說想要來請假。然後我的助理就問他「有沒有跟召委說過？」他說「沒有」，那我助理非常簡單的就跟他說「拒收」，除非他們先跟我講。","大家都做過召委，今天如果有任何一個機關很簡單就說：我要請假，我不想去……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：我就不爽，寄個email給你，就代表我請假成功……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有、沒有，謝謝主席的說明。"],["主席：這個部分我不接受。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席的說明。因為我們委員不是一天24小時都坐在辦公室嘛，所以各個部門要找委員送公文、說明預算、說明法案，那必然都會先派員，我想剛剛主席所說的國安會不知道是誰，應當是國安會的聯絡人或者是業務單位的誰，我不知道……"],["主席：沒有人知道他是誰。"],["吳委員思瑤：不可能是假冒的……"],["主席：沒有人知道他是誰，而且事先沒有先約就跑進來……"],["吳委員思瑤：好啦，主席，我在說話。"],["主席：進了你的辦公室就說他是國安會的人，重點是沒有人來跟我說……"],["吳委員思瑤：那就是我們……"],["主席：吳委員，如果您當召委……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，我講完，我講完……"],["主席：有人要跟你講話……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我講完，你不用緊張……"],["主席：然後他不告訴你……"],["吳委員思瑤：你不用講，我還沒講完啦！"],["主席：我沒有緊張啦，我是要跟你講狀況……"],["吳委員思瑤：就是說，我們辦公室……"],["主席：你不要在那邊亂帶風向。"],["吳委員思瑤：奇怪了，我在恢復整個事實，譬如說，常常會有文化部的人到辦公室說要遞資料給吳委員、吳思瑤委員，吳委員不在，他們會把資料留給我們，如果吳委員看到資料還有進一步想要理解，我會再打電話給文化部，也許是部長，也許是次長，一般都是這樣，很少說……"],["主席：沒有啦，請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣，你不要在那邊亂講！"],["吳委員思瑤：不然是要……好，沒關係……"],["主席：請假要經過召委同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：召委，因為要請得您的同意不就是要到您的辦公室去跟您請示嗎？"],["主席：他要不要跟我說？他需不需要來跟我講……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，他第一時間吃了閉門羹……"],["主席：到今天此刻為止，國安會沒有任何人來跟我說過。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們可以解釋的是，他吃了閉門羹，吳召委不認同這種方式，他吃了閉門羹，但不代表他沒有試圖要去請假，這第一件事，是您不接受。","第二件事情就是這個收發文的系統，可能要請立法院的……"],["主席：所以我不接受，他們就可以不來，是不是？"],["吳委員思瑤：因為這個收發文的系統非常清楚地載明，司法及法制委員會2025年4月18號16點39分18秒，已經寄了這個請假函文，而且收文方確認；然後在之前的28秒前，2025年4月18號16點38分50秒是寄給吳宗憲召委辦公室，而且收文方確認。","如果召委您這邊說您沒有收到，然後司法及法制委員會也說你們沒有收到，那可能要請立法院的資訊處來查一下這個東西，因為很清楚嘛，這是系統顯示的嘛，難道是系統出錯了嗎？"],["主席：那就這樣……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席！主席，我想……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們先釐清一下有沒有請假。"],["王委員鴻薇：直接處理好嗎？請直接處理。"],["主席：依照吳思瑤委員的意思，以後吳思瑤委員您當召委的時候，任何一個機關不想來，寫個email給你，就表示我請假完成，你就必須聽我的，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你承認你們收到了！"],["主席：我今天擔任召委，我擔任主席……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您承認您收到了嗎？"],["主席：請尊重我的意見！"],["陳委員培瑜：現在就是問清楚……"],["主席：……麻煩來跟我說清楚要請假的原因，如果說今天有任何人想要請假，麻煩跟主席說明請假的原因，並且得到主席的同意，這是立法院一直以來的慣例，我們不接受你寫一個email或一個電子公文進來，我就要照單全收各機關的想法，沒有那種事情！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有！主席不要緊張！"],["沈委員發惠：……你有沒有收到公文……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們只是在釐清他有沒有寄函文……"],["主席：還有誰要發表意見？"],["吳委員思瑤：我們只是在釐清，我沒有說你接不接受……"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：真的是！等一下！"],["主席：我跟你講，沈委員，不要講那些，你上次罵我，我還……"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下！我剛剛的詢問只是在確認他們有沒有試圖來請假，有電子還有……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席！"],["主席：沒有試圖來請假……"],["吳委員思瑤：您不接受這是另外一個層次……"],["主席：我這邊跟您說清楚，沒有試圖來請假……"],["吳委員思瑤：您不接受這是另外一個層次，那他寄的這個文，還有一個人去你辦公室要送公文，那是事實。"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，她講完我可以講嗎？"],["主席：好，我在這邊跟各位報告，沒有試圖來請假，謝謝各位。","王委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：那登載在這個公文收發系統的是什麼？"],["王委員鴻薇：我們臨時提案的提案文非常清楚，是「未經主席准假」，請大家看第一段末是「未經主席准假，未派員到會列席」；最後我們的決議，第一個也是「國安會未經本會輪值召委同意，拒絕到會接受監督」，所以我想剛才所講的這些事情跟我們的提案無關，跟我們提案無關，所以在這邊直接請求主席來處理臨時提案。"],["主席：是，謝謝。","我再跟各位報告另外一件事情，依據我國的法制、我國的憲法制度，立法委員是監督政府，不是護航政府，我們就依法處理。","我們現在處理臨時提案。","來，莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委，你是召委，我也是召委，講這個話可能要稍微斟酌一下。請坐，我不會針對你啦。","確實，請假要召委來准假，這也是事實，所以你們都很生氣，沒有跟召委請假，你會很生氣嘛，會同仇敵愾嘛，對不對？我告訴你啦，前兩個禮拜我變更議程那一次，請立法院秘書長周萬來來列席報告，他連請假都沒跟我請假，你應該跟我一樣生氣才對，他是一定要來，不是嗎？那你剛剛提到的就是說，其實是他涉及到有沒有請假，那是一個意思表示的問題啦，意思表示本來就第一個有口頭，第二個有書面，我們法律人都很清楚嘛，他確實有請假，但是你沒准啦，應該這樣講嘛，這樣才完整嘛，對不對？就是說國安會的人有去要跟你請假，可是因為你是召委，你認為他必須要親自來跟你請假才可以。"],["主席：沒有、沒有！他沒有來找我請假，我再講一次，他沒有來找我請假。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然啦！我懂你的意思，我也沒有說他找你請假嘛，就是他到辦公室去了，他搞不好去是想要找你，但沒碰到你，這個也沒有負面的評價嘛。所以呢，應該就是回到國安會秘書長到底有沒有這個義務到立法院備詢，國安會秘書長可不可以到立法院備詢？當然可以啊，碰到預算審查的時候，當然要到立法院備詢；有關國家安全大政、政策的部分，他當然也必須要來；但個案的部分，其實就會有爭議。你很生氣，你要譴責他，這個就是行禮如儀而已嘛，我也不會有意見嘛，可是不要去講說沒有人找你請假，或者說在本案屬性不明的時候，你要發動這個譴責案，這當然是一個政治的主張，我也不會有意見。","可是我必須要告訴你的就是說，我們召委常常會碰到這種狀況，該來的，他連請都不請，就你們的好朋友，對不對？這個會有相同標準，但是我也沒有去做處理，他年紀大，開玩笑，年紀那麼大，我一譴責他，萬一怎麼樣，我還背上罵名，我才不要呢！真的，我話還是要講清楚啦！以上。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","我這邊再一次的說明狀況，事實上就是確實有一位自稱國安會的人在事先沒有跟我們聯絡的情況下跑到辦公室去，拿了一個信封說要請假，我們同仁問他有沒有跟我講過，那一位人說沒有，我們同仁也是跟他說，叫他要跟召委講一下，但是從此就完全沒有任何訊息。我想莊委員當召委一定也不可能接受這樣子的作法，如果這樣子的話，是不是請假變成是跟你報備就好了，也不用經過你的同意？這也不是立法院一直以來的作法。","第二個，有關莊委員剛剛提到秘書長的部分，我想今天從頭到尾我們都沒有指定要求秘書長要到，我們是依據以前的慣例，這個慣例甚至是段宜康以前多次的慣例，我後來又再找出好幾次國安會都有派人來，在非法律案以及非預算案的時候都有派人來，我們今天並沒有指定一定要秘書長來，所以大家可以看到我們簽到處的名字部分是空白，其實他們派任何人來我們可以接受，我們只要能夠問到我們的問題就好，其實我今天已經給國安會最大的空間了，我並沒有指定他要來就個案部分或怎麼樣去做報告，以上是我說明的部分。","我覺得我還是必須堅守立法院的尊嚴，任何機關受立法院的邀請，如果你不能來，就要麻煩你請假，而且要經過召委同意，我想一直以來都是這麼做，不管面對國民黨或民進黨，今天就是沒有任何一位國安會的人來跟我請假，所以這就是結論，我們不要在一些用字遣詞上面的文字在那邊玩，我覺得不需要。今天我跟各位報告，就是沒有任何一個人來跟我請假，謝謝。","我們來處理臨時提案。請問在場委員，針對臨時提案……"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，不好意思，可不可以拜託主席再回應一下關於電子公文收發系統的問題？剛剛吳思瑤委員有提出來說，到底是不是需要資訊……"],["王委員鴻薇：已經回應過了！"],["陳委員培瑜：是不是需要資訊處幫忙確認？不然為什麼我們現在手上拿這個表上面顯示的是收文方確認……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，這跟提案無關！"],["陳委員培瑜：這是我們資訊系統出了問題，還是因為司法及法制委員會的議事人員的認知不一樣？"],["主席：陳委員，因為時間的關係，我想說明清楚，如果今天是報備制，那你們說的都可以，但今天請弄清楚，在立法院是許可，要召委同意，而且沒有任何一個人打一通電話或見到我的面來跟我講今天沒有辦法過來，以上我已經說明的非常清楚。你既然要去搞公文、搞那些，以後所有的機關在貴黨召委的時候，寫個email給你就代表跟你請假了，你不准就給我試試看，是這樣嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：……是說你有沒有說謊……"],["主席：不是！他沒有來找我請假，這要我講幾次大家才聽得懂？沒有任何一個人來找我請假，不要再去拗那些……"],["陳委員培瑜：你有沒有……"],["主席：沒有任何一個來找我請假，這就是事實。我們來處理臨時提案，我沒有時間在這邊跟你們玩文字遊戲。","針對臨時提案的部分，請問在場委員，就臨時提案有無異議？（有）有異議的話，我們採舉手表決。","在表決前，請先清點在場出席委員人數。","（清點人數）"],["主席：在場出席委員11人。","現在進行表決，就今日的臨時提案，贊成者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好，請放下。","反對者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好，請放下。","報告表決結果：在場出席委員11人，贊成者6人，反對者5人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","現在先處理會議時間，上午會議時間持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接著繼續進行詢答。請陳冠廷委員發言，陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員。","請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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其實我們高度的也是需要一些約"},{"start":152.216,"end":172.875,"text":"聘僱的人員那些在管務的經營上是很重要那尤其有一些領務或有一些行政協助的事項那雖然這些只是一個機關裡面的可能在最基層的執行人員可是因為我們要減少我們一些公務的負擔我們不可能都用公務員嘛這個部分的影響是相當大的在外觀"},{"start":174.157,"end":191.853,"text":"提到外管的事情我請教一下部長這個我們在國外有租用的117間的社管然後是不是有可能在7月就可能繳不出房租那就算是我們有這個自有的住外的管社會不會也因為到了7月繳不出水電費無法正常營運其實這個部分"},{"start":195.342,"end":222.641,"text":"因為公務員他都會很就是說依法行政所以如果說大院能夠有解釋這個部分可以除外或者是我們的這個主緝單位能夠有統一的解釋那我不是指的處長啦我指的是說整個行政院跟立法院之間能夠就因為這個事情真的是會傷害到我們外交嘛這個部分那當然"},{"start":224.822,"end":238.895,"text":"這些所謂固定的支出是不是就要算在這個所謂凍三的這個統凍的範圍這個也是另外一個可以大家來討論的方向但是它就是一起刪的嘛因為這是含在業務費裡面"},{"start":239.616,"end":259.134,"text":"三就三就沒辦法啦要去追加與否嘛但是我說動的部分其實動有時候比三影響的更大它的傷害因為它不確定性因為你會不會解凍因為我們必須尊重立法院職權也許最後動了之後最後沒有通過解凍啊有可能啊不能夠排除這種可能啊"},{"start":260.075,"end":274.201,"text":"那會不會發生就是說 將來有一天或是最近我們的副院長曾立軍要到美國去做這個談判然後到了美國 連一個能夠開燈的辦公室都沒有會不會最快發生這種情況六月之前是 目前沒有動的這個部分因為他這個是要"},{"start":285.278,"end":297.545,"text":"就是一半嘛我們當然可以會移緩季節我們怎麼樣去針對那因為這次規定齁其實這次也是麻煩欸不能留用對啊就不能留用很多項目不能留用所以就沒有辦法來這個"},{"start":299.567,"end":312.978,"text":"這個所謂的不管已婉即即或者是留用不過這樣如果是上半年因為川普講這90天應該是在我們最近的就是會來執行我也不希望這個事情發生這個部分我們為了確保國家利益我是無論如何一定要讓我們團隊能夠順利出發如果到美國去的話"},{"start":321.766,"end":345.178,"text":"好 那最後一個問題 因為這個在4月16號發生要罷免我的領銜人在這個新北地檢應訊的時候這一個穿著這個納粹的背章然後拿著這個希特勒的我的奮鬥的書然後甚至還舉這個希特勒這個鏡手裡引起了這個外交事件這是國際醜聞這包含這個以色列駐台代表有個聲明他說這個呢"},{"start":348.279,"end":362.086,"text":"這個對於在台灣納稅標誌還有希特勒著作遭公開展示一事表達深切的關切與強烈的譴責然後呢德國在台協會呢也是他說呢這件事情呢是帶有政治目的是一個無恥的行為這兩個聲明呢"},{"start":365.667,"end":387.043,"text":"幾乎就是在國民黨的黨主席朱立倫他在第一時間沒有承認說這是一個錯誤的事情反而拿這件事情再來消費民進黨我就看到了不論是德國在台協會或是以色列駐台代表馬上發出了這兩個嚴重的聲明那我再請教一下部長我們台灣民主集結會預定在這個月的月底"},{"start":387.563,"end":415.464,"text":"是不是會跟這個德國在台協會還有以色列在台的這個辦事處會共同舉辦一個國際猶太大屠殺紀念日的活動對這個活動我們去年也都有舉辦那個今年也都有外交部也都會支持也會參與副執行長有在場能不能就這個活動再做個說明那尤其在4月16日發生這件事情之後對於我們辦這個活動有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":416.825,"end":437.835,"text":"報告委員,我想辦理這樣子一個活動,我們台灣民主基金會是抱持著一個我們緬懷過去,我們不能遺忘過去,同時更重要的是要能夠積極的提倡我們台灣內部,對於這樣子一個在人類歷史上發生過這樣的悲慘的悲劇,這樣子一段歷史要能夠記憶,同時我們也要避免未來悲劇會持續的發生。"},{"start":439.556,"end":458.572,"text":"接下來我們會跟以色列駐台北的辦事處還有德國在台協會我們一起來共構這樣子的一個活動屆時也會有國內非常多的先進然後包括我們的總統也都會依照往例都會出席今年也設計了相當多元的一些活動"},{"start":459.292,"end":472.118,"text":"那主要的目標還是要提醒我們的公眾在這樣子的一個議題上面基本上它是一個沒有模糊空間我們對於這個人道對於人類歷史我們是應該要能夠正視這個活動是幾號開始辦"},{"start":475.095,"end":495.178,"text":"以我這個目前知道是4月23號4月23號辦那這個也有邀請總統來參加就對了那我在想說這件事情發生之後因為以色列跟德國代表處他們都有發出聲明他們有沒有來跟外交部來講這件事情來 部長我們都有保持聯繫所以其實外交部"},{"start":496.533,"end":509.702,"text":"在第一時間我在群組裡面而且我對用字譴制我是很慎重就是說外交部對這種以極為不當的方式表達個人意見與嚴正譴責就是說嚴正譴責就是"},{"start":513.624,"end":531.978,"text":"我想在外交上面是很重的就是我們對這件事情非常的重視而且認為這個是破壞台灣整體的形象而且傷害其他國家人民的感情我們不容許這個有模糊的空間這一點我們也需要"},{"start":534.219,"end":538.461,"text":"這個是不幸的事情 我說包括這位去用納粹符號跟旗幟去表態的這位國人我們也希望能夠作為一個負面教材"},{"start":549.446,"end":577.839,"text":"一個機會教育一個負面的示範避免未來再發生我們也必須要利用這個事件來告訴國人這件事情是一個歷史的悲劇是人類可以說一個大慘劇我們不能夠把它當作一般的事情好像只是在嘲諷或是想要用這個東西去表達抗議這是沒有能夠混淆或模糊的空間"},{"start":578.379,"end":596.886,"text":"那以色列或是德國代表處有來跟外交部特別提到這件事情嗎?我們亞非斯負責的業務都有跟他們很密切的聯繫,尤其最近要舉辦這一個所謂國際猶太大屠殺紀念日活動,我們很密切的來聯繫,我們也會支持跟參與。"},{"start":598.526,"end":620.896,"text":"我是希望說這件事情在當天的這個活動裡面能夠再把它做個說明我最後也希望說能夠國人跟政府一起攜手努力我們展現台灣是一個民主自由尊重人權的國家對世界上不同的文化宗教跟族群要有同理心來實現更美好更有包容性的未來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時43分）謝謝主席，請外交部林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：主席好、委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了！我早上聽到很多委員在講，為什麼行政院或是外交部的預算不趕快解凍，我在想那為什麼當時要去刪預算、要去凍結預算？早知如此，何必當初？我們來看一下，在總預算通過之後，您有寫到臺灣在世界舞臺已被消音，其中業務費凍結了50%，總計37.64億；媒體政策還有業務宣傳的經費全數刪除，總計1.11億；國外旅費刪減了15%，總計1.58億。前陣子我有看到媒體報導，外交部的業務費凍結50%，要執行30%之後才能申請解凍，而且解凍要經過立法院院會同意才有辦法動支。我剛剛聽到很多立委在講要趕快解凍，現在不是已經快要三分之一了嗎？那為什麼當時業務費要凍到50%？業務費凍到50%有什麼樣的影響？部長能不能再做個說明？"],["林部長佳龍：業務費凍結50%，影響的不是只有50%，因為很多業務是要先期規劃、去洽商，才能夠在未來同意之後執行。我想這一次的凍結數因為是統凍，沒有去分項目，所以你就會發現有一些項目會影響我們政務的推動，尤其是外館，因為很多外交交涉都要一年以上的時間才能逐步進行，可能當時並沒有考慮到外交的特色，所以我們對這部分會提出請求。以前委員會即可解凍，至於外交部分，希望大院能夠針對這項決議做新的提案並通過，讓外交可以不受凍結影響，因為現在影響已經產生了！"],["李委員坤城：影響已經產生了？產生什麼樣的影響？有沒有比較具體的……"],["林部長佳龍：像外館有些固定支出，除了水、電、房租以外，還有一些約用人員。其實我們也高度需要一些約聘僱人員，這對館務的經營很重要，尤其是一些領務或行政協助事項。雖然這只是一個機關裡最基層的執行人員，但為了減少公務負擔，我們不可能都用公務員，所以外館這部分的影響相當大。"],["李委員坤城：提到外館，我請教部長。我們在國外租用了117間館舍，是不是有可能7月就繳不出房租？即使是自有的駐外館舍，會不會到了7月因為繳不出水電費而無法正常營運？"],["林部長佳龍：公務員都會依法行政，若大院能解釋這部分除外或主計單位能有統一的解釋……我不是指處長，我指的是行政院與立法院能夠就……因為這件事真的會傷害到我們的外交！當然，這些所謂的固定支出是不是算在統凍範圍？這也是另一個大家可以討論的方向。"],["李委員坤城：但現在就是一起刪了，畢竟都含在業務費裡面。"],["林部長佳龍：如果刪了就沒辦法，後續要看是否另外追加。我現在說的是凍的部分，其實凍的傷害有時候比刪影響更大，因為具有不確定性，也涉及會不會解凍，畢竟我們必須尊重立法院的職權，也許凍了之後，最後沒有通過解凍！"],["李委員坤城：有可能。"],["林部長佳龍：不能夠排除這種可能。"],["李委員坤城：會不會將來有一天……最近鄭麗君副院長要去美國談判，會不會到了美國卻連個能夠開燈的辦公室都沒有？最壞會不會發生這種情況？"],["林部長佳龍：6月之前沒有觸及凍的部分，因為必須先執行一半，我們當然可以移緩濟急，看怎麼樣去針對……因為這次的規定很麻煩，不能流用……"],["李委員坤城：對，不能流用。"],["林部長佳龍：很多項目不能流用，所以就沒有辦法移緩濟急或流用。以上半年來說，因為川普講了90天，所以我們最近就會來執行。"],["李委員坤城：我也不希望這種事情發生。"],["林部長佳龍：為確保國家利益，這部分無論如何我一定要讓我們的談判團隊能順利出發到美國去。"],["李委員坤城：最後一個問題，4月16日要罷免我的領銜人在新北地檢應訊時，穿著納粹臂章，拿著希特勒的《我的奮鬥》這本書，甚至還舉希特勒舉手禮，引發外交事件，成了一件國際醜聞！以色列駐臺代表發表聲明說，對於納粹標誌及希特勒著作在臺灣遭公開展示一事，表達深切關切與強烈譴責；德國在臺協會也說，這件事帶有政治目的，是一個無恥的行為。國民黨黨主席朱立倫在第一時間並未承認這是一件錯誤的事情，反而拿來消費民進黨，所以我看到這兩個聲明，不論是德國在臺協會或以色列駐臺代表，馬上發出這兩個嚴重聲明。請教部長，臺灣民主基金會是否預定在這個月月底，跟德國在臺協會及以色列在臺辦事處，共同舉辦國際猶太大屠殺紀念日活動？"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們去年也有舉辦，今年外交部也會支持，也會參與。"],["李委員坤城：今天副執行長有在場，能否就該活動做個說明？尤其4月16日事件發生之後，對於我們辦這個活動有什麼樣的影響？"],["盧副執行長業中：報告委員，對於辦理這樣的活動，臺灣民主基金會是抱持著緬懷過去、不能遺忘過去的態度，更重要的是，積極提倡臺灣內部能夠記憶這樣一件發生在人類歷史上的悲慘悲劇，同時避免未來悲劇持續發生。接下來我們會跟以色列駐臺北辦事處還有德國在臺協會一起共構這樣一個活動，屆時國內會有非常多先進，包括總統都會依照往例出席。我們今年設計了相當多元的活動，主要目標還是要提醒我們的公眾，在這樣的議題上，基本上沒有模糊空間，對於人道、對於人類歷史，我們應該要正視！"],["李委員坤城：這個活動幾號開始辦？"],["盧副執行長業中：以我目前所知是4月23日。"],["李委員坤城：4月23日辦？"],["盧副執行長業中：是。"],["李委員坤城：也有邀請總統來參加就對了？"],["盧副執行長業中：是的。"],["李委員坤城：這件事發生之後，以色列跟德國代表處都發出聲明，請問他們有沒有跟外交部講這件事情，部長？"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有保持聯繫，其實外交部在第一時間……"],["李委員坤城：我知道有發出聲明。"],["林部長佳龍：我在群組裡面發文，而且我的用字遣辭非常慎重。也就是說，外交部對這種以極為不當的方式表達個人意見予以嚴正譴責，「嚴正譴責」就外交上來說用字是很重的，代表我們對這件事情非常重視，也認為這破壞臺灣的整體形象，傷害其他國家人民的感情，我們不容許這個有模糊的空間！這是不幸的事情，包括使用納粹符號跟旗幟表態的這位國人，我們希望能夠作為負面教材，或者應該說機會教育，一個負面的示範，避免未來再發生。我們也必須利用這個事件來告訴國人，這件事情是一個歷史悲劇，是人類的一個大慘劇，我們不能夠把它當作一般的事情，好像只是在嘲諷，或是想要藉此去表達抗議，這沒有混淆或模糊的空間！"],["李委員坤城：以色列或德國代表處有跟外交部特別提到這件事情嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：亞非司負責相關業務，都有跟他們保持密切聯繫，尤其最近要舉辦國際猶太大屠殺紀念日活動，我們很密切地聯繫，也會支持跟參與。"],["李委員坤城：我希望在當天的活動裡能再就這件事做個說明。"],["林部長佳龍：我最後也希望國人能跟政府一起攜手努力，展現臺灣是一個民主自由、尊重人權的國家，對世界上不同的文化、宗教跟族群要有同理心，實現更美好、更有包容性的未來。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員上臺質詢。","接下來由鄭天財委員上臺質詢，鄭天財委員上臺質詢、鄭天財委員上臺質詢，鄭天財委員不在。","以上已登記質詢委員除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內答復，委員另定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c80ac9656d1956bdc1f4553849aeee05e46292c42d4fa30ae9d8480a73c251d2965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:34:33 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林部長"},{"start":10.513,"end":34.523,"text":"保定我也好丁蓋啊你化解了這個民主基金會的這個人事僵局我是高度肯定的謝謝你提出來之後讓找到一個韓國瑜可以接受的人民進黨政府也可以接受的人那個是賴清德總統啊在最近這一上任快一年啊朝野和解跟朝野合作成功的一個案例我高度肯定那我也期待這邊啊我們跟美國這次的談判啊不要搞到後來"},{"start":40.609,"end":65.316,"text":"投降各地賠款你落下一個各地賠款的外交部長好不好好我們等一下來想看看有沒有什麼是美國印尼給的而且是我們台灣需要的那我先問這個進展第一個你一直好像聽你講這個談判非常樂觀啊 包括我上禮拜問這個經濟部的處長啊江次長他是從那次視訊完之後就停頓啊連這個談判都沒開始啊那現在想想進度停擺了嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":69.605,"end":93.075,"text":"都進行中 我們美處跟美方都有很頻繁的在溝通安排進一步的談判日本都談了第一階段結束了現在南韓還要開始 我們差不多要再等多久我們都有洽談了適當的時間跟出席的人員等來啦 我們來畫危機為轉機"},{"start":96.912,"end":125.913,"text":"談判一定是有拿的時候也要給嘛對不對我們有沒有想出來不是美國只有他喊牌說叫我們買這個金幣這個大概跑不掉啦對不對那個不算進去這個不算在這個逆差裡面這個也是很大的一個當然他在省啊對他沒有算進去我們就要跟他講嘛對不對那除了這個之外要我們一直去投資台積電去還有我們的產業一直去投資之外有沒有是他們也要給我們我們也需要的"},{"start":126.713,"end":138.655,"text":"有沒有想過 例子是能源呢我先開個頭 等一下看你有什麼好方法吧所以我們外交部有邀請金融美台商會阿拉斯加州長來參加所謂的忘年會就是美台的這個我知道 這個很好那我進一步來講 你講到天然氣我問了經濟部經濟部說我們目前所有天然氣的採購"},{"start":154.238,"end":170.823,"text":"美國佔我們的10%現在可能要增加兩到三倍那我提一個更具體的建議是你剛剛講阿拉斯加官方的天然氣來了我們跟他合資一起來賺錢這會不會更好如果這樣很好啊對不對進井路透社就有一個新聞他說有440億美金整條的他希望跟我們合作現在南韓在爭取對不對包括要挖天然氣管道管線我們一起來投資一起來賺錢可以嗎"},{"start":183.992,"end":208.892,"text":"這會更好 比那個去買 買了很多天然氣又更好投資當然能夠建立的合作關係更緊密這是一個更好的路嘛第二個 而且以後如果這個 除了這個商業的考量其實 能源安全啊 跟韌性因為我想美國跟台灣 如果說阿拉斯加的天然氣啊它不會比較受制於中國的影響對嘛 所以第一個我們有共識 也是一個好的方法除了"},{"start":210.133,"end":232.129,"text":"擴大去買天然氣投資方面一起賺錢這應該是我們這次可以談的一個很大的突破第二個核能啊核能是一個好議題啊你有注意到AIT的處長古立言最近講了兩三次了對不對有他說對他說核能美國跟日本現在在重啟核能他穩定而且價格是低的我們電競就不用像現在一直在漲啊"},{"start":233.462,"end":252.867,"text":"美國商會一直在呼籲美國商會每一次跟我們談的第一件事情都說台灣現在他們來投資最大問題是什麼我們的能源可能不夠我們的電力可能不夠因為我們現在要推展半導體跟AI我們價格一直漲而且常常亂調三年調五次他說他們現在投資都碰到問題有一個穩定價格又低的就是核能"},{"start":257.668,"end":271.642,"text":"我跟委員講 核能部門來先救核廢料處理美國很有經驗跟技術 這個也是我們需要解決的問題他們的解決 這個也是一個合作的項目所以這個我們有共識 去突破 去跟美國要談包括核廢料他們幫我們處理"},{"start":274.204,"end":281.686,"text":"這個核能的設備包括Humble服務我們全部跟他買這個利差就降下來喔而且是他要的嘛川普也在講川普的選舉就是能源的輸出果嘛所以他在天然氣轉啊轉啊轉啊天然氣就開始賣那我們說要不要合資第二個核能的部分我們跟你買買設備買技術那這個對我們的電力幫助很大啊我們發展AI半導體就有幫助了對不對第一個電價不只不用漲還降"},{"start":303.931,"end":325.746,"text":"因為我們現在一度電大概3.8塊核電大概只有1.3塊那你去買那個什麼再生能源5.8塊來回之間我們電價就可以降核能的發展有一些政策跟主管其實不是外教部但我想是核廢料的處理因為美方有很好的經驗跟這個設備還有相關的如果能夠協助台灣處理我想這個也對於縮短"},{"start":328.268,"end":331.735,"text":"我們是不是有共識把這個列為一個雖然經濟部也說這個可以列為討論我們去爭取看看如果包括你講的他可以幫我們處理核廢料美國處理得很好啊"},{"start":337.608,"end":358.998,"text":"對不對現在的一方面法令上我們已經都提案了法令我們會趕快去處理然後最近這一兩年美國跟日本他們這個核能就40年過後日本已經延長到60年了嘛對不對美國有些地方都已經到80了我們現在的核二核三都是40年就要停了我們會爭取再20年這個沒有問題這技術上沒有問題還有包括核廢料美國都可以處理當然請他來幫我們處理嘛好不好這是一個美國要給我們而且對我們來講是需要這個才是有突破啦"},{"start":367.662,"end":385.628,"text":"這樣不只不讓變成什麼割地賠款 上前祖國期待喔 跟民主基金的人事案一樣我們再做一個突破好不好那最後我大概用一分鐘時間問一下那個吳釗燮那六年 八個那個邦交國因為那個共諜案嘛 對不對你現在怎麼處理 你有前面去清查嗎不要又發生 又發生類似狀況"},{"start":387.884,"end":403.115,"text":"我有責成政鋒處進行調查就他接觸的業務跟人事等這個調查最近會完成我們來做損害控管"},{"start":404.075,"end":410.137,"text":"也能夠避免未來再發生調查完要對外要公開好不好不要再出現斷交的狀況所以有一點時間我請教一下剛剛是我提的天然氣不是只有買還要投資一起賺錢第二個考慮核能重啟核能美國幫他們處理核污肥料你說你也有一些想法是不是有什麼突破的方法"},{"start":426.035,"end":440.471,"text":"沒有 有關於能源 台灣因為是個能源進口國那如果能夠從美國來進口包括天然氣或油或等其實這個也多一層能源安全的考量因為美國會用他的船"},{"start":441.772,"end":466.572,"text":"來運送啊然後這個期間也會經過這個我們台灣附近的海域嘛這個是也是兼具有經濟跟安全上的考量啦這是一個那核廢料如果不解決其實談核能其實台灣社會就是沒有辦法進入到下一個階段去談核電的問題但是未來的技術我想有一些開放的就是大家都討論的空間但是核廢料的先來幫忙台灣如果能夠協助處理我想這個應該跨黨派啦"},{"start":470.775,"end":486.302,"text":"大家會從這裡切入也只是一個比較好的路徑美國很有經驗有技術可以處理那核電除了核二跟核三可以核二是可以重啟核三可以研擬核四廠在那邊整個總體檢一下那甚至現在全世界都有小型的核電廠"},{"start":487.463,"end":503.006,"text":"對不對這是民進黨比較不排斥的這個都可以好好去談好不好那我們共同努力希望繼這個民主基金會人事案之外這次的談判外交部可以辦理一個更積極的做一些突破我們化危機為轉機我們不自由去投降好不好共同努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時34分）請林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，上次你化解了民主基金會的人事僵局，我是高度肯定的。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你提出來之後，找到一個韓國瑜可以接受的人，民進黨政府也可以接受的人，那個是賴清德總統上任快一年，朝野和解跟朝野合作成功的一個案例，我高度肯定，我也期待這次我們跟美國的談判，不要搞到後來投降、割地賠款，你落下一個割地賠款的外交部長名聲，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們努力。"],["張委員啓楷：再想看看有沒有什麼是美國願意給的，而且是我們臺灣需要的。我先問這個進展，第一個，好像一直聽你講談判非常樂觀，不過我上禮拜問經濟部江次長，他說從那次視訊完之後就停擺，連談判都還沒開始，現在是進度停擺了，還是怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：都在進行中，我們美處跟美方都有很頻繁地在溝通、安排進一步的談判。"],["張委員啓楷：日本都談了，第一階段結束了，現在南韓也要開始了，我們差不多還要等多久？"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有洽談了適當的時間跟出席的人員等等。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我們來化危機為轉機，談判一定是有拿的時候也要給，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你們有沒有想出來……不是只有美國在喊牌說叫我們買軍備，這個大概跑不掉，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：那個不算進關稅談判裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：這個不算在逆差裡面？"],["林部長佳龍：當然，我們也會主張這也是很大的一個採購。"],["張委員啓楷：當然要算啊！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["張委員啓楷：它沒有算進去，我們就要跟它講，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["張委員啓楷：除了這個之外，一直要我們台積電去投資，還有要我們的產業也一直去投資之外，有沒有是他們也要給我們，我們也需要的？有沒有想過？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["張委員啓楷：例如能源，我先開個頭，等一下看你有什麼好方法，好不好？來。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們外交部有經由美臺商會，邀請阿拉斯加州長來參加忘年會，就是美臺的……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，這個很好。我進一步來講，你講到天然氣，我問了經濟部，經濟部說我們目前所有天然氣的採購，美國占10%，現在可能要增加兩到三倍。我提一個更具體的建議，你剛剛講了，阿拉斯加官方的天然氣來了，我們跟它合資一起賺錢，這會不會更好？"],["林部長佳龍：如果是這樣，很好啊！"],["張委員啓楷：以前路透社就有一個新聞，它說有440億美金，好幾兆的啊！它希望跟我們合作，現在南韓也在爭取，對不對？包括要挖天然氣、管線，我們一起投資，一起賺錢，可以嗎？這會不會更好？比去買很多天然氣又更好。"],["林部長佳龍：投資當然能夠建立的合作關係更緊密。"],["張委員啓楷：對，這是一個更好的路嘛。第二個……"],["林部長佳龍：而且以後除了商業的考量，其實能源安全跟韌性……因為我想美國跟臺灣如果合作，阿拉斯加的天然氣比較不會受中國影響。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，所以第一個我們有共識，這應該也是一個好的方法，除了擴大去買天然氣，投資方面一起賺錢，這應該是我們這次可以談的一個很大的突破。第二個，核能，核能是一個好議題，你有注意到AIT的處長谷立言最近講了兩、三次了，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["張委員啓楷：對，他說美國跟日本現在都在重啟核能，它穩定，而且價格是低的，我們電價就不用像現在一直在漲啊！美國商會也一直在呼籲，它每一次跟我們談的第一件事情都在講，現在他們來臺灣投資，碰到的最大問題是什麼？我們的能源可能不夠，我們的電力可能不夠，因為我們現在要推展半導體跟AI。第二個，我們的價格一直漲，而且常常都要調，3年調了5次，他說他們現在投資都碰到問題。有一個穩定、價格又低的能源，就是核能嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員講，核能部分，先就核廢料處理來講，美國很有經驗跟技術。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：這個也是我們很需要解決的問題，所以這也是一個合作的項目。"],["張委員啓楷：佳龍，所以這個我們有共識，去突破、去跟美國好好談，包括核廢料他們幫我們處理，這個核能的……"],["林部長佳龍：洽談啦，看怎麼合作來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：核能的設備，包括它的服務，我們全部跟它買，這個逆差就降下來了。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["張委員啓楷：而且是它要的嘛，川普也在講，川普選舉提的就是能源的輸出國嘛，所以它的天然氣鑽啊、鑽啊、鑽啊，天然氣就開始賣了。我們說一方面合資，第二個，核能的部分，我們跟它買，買設備、買技術，這個對我們的電力幫助很大，我們發展AI、半導體就有幫助了，對不對？電價不只不用漲，還降，因為我們現在1度電大概3.8塊，核電大概只有1.3塊，你買再生能源是5.8塊，來回之間，我們電價就可以降了。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，核能的發展有一些政策跟主管機關，不是外交部，但我想核廢料的處理美方有很好的經驗跟設備，還有相關的部分，如果能夠協助臺灣處理，我想這個對於縮短臺美的一些……"],["張委員啓楷：我們是不是有共識？把這個列為項目之一，事實上經濟部也說這個可以列為討論內容，我們去爭取看看。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["張委員啓楷：如果包括你講的，他們可以幫我們處理核廢料，美國處理得很好啊，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在一方面法令上我們都已經提案了，法令我們會趕快處理。最近這一、兩年，美國跟日本的核能在40年過後延役了，日本已經延長到60年了，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["張委員啓楷：美國有些地方都已經到80年了，我們現在的核二、核三都是40年就要停了，我們可以爭取再20年，這沒有問題，這個技術上沒有問題。還有包括核廢料，美國可以處理，當然請它來幫我們處理，好不好？這一個美國要給我們，而且對我們來講是需要的，這個才有突破啦！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這樣不只不用變成割地賠款、喪權辱國，也期待跟民主基金的人事案一樣，我們再做一個突破，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["張委員啓楷：最後，我大概用1分鐘的時間問一下。吳釗燮那個6年8個邦交國……因為那個共諜案，對不對？你現在怎麼處理？你有全面清查嗎？不要又發生類似狀況。"],["林部長佳龍：我有責成政風處進行調查，就他接觸的業務跟人事等等，這個調查最近會完成，我們會做損害控管，也能夠避免未來再發生。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，調查完要對外公開，好不好？不要再出現斷交的狀況。最後一點時間我請教一下，剛剛我提的天然氣不是只有買，還要投資一起賺錢。第二個，考慮核能，重啟核能，包括美國幫我們處理核廢料，你說你也有一些想法，是不是？有什麼突破的方法？"],["林部長佳龍：有關能源，臺灣是個能源進口國，如果能夠從美國進口，包括天然氣或油或其他等等，其實這個也多一層能源安全的考量，因為美國會用它的船運送，這個期間也會經過我們臺灣附近的海域，這也是兼具經濟跟安全上的考量，這是一個。核廢料如果不解決，其實臺灣社會就是沒有辦法進入下個階段去談核電的問題，但是未來的技術，我想有一些開放的……大家都有討論的空間，但是核廢料的部分，先來幫忙臺灣。如果能夠協助處理，我想這個應該跨黨派，大家從這裡切入，也許是一個比較好的路徑。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，美國很有經驗，有技術可以處理。核電除了核二跟核三可以……核二可以重啟，核三可以延役，核四廠整個總體檢一下，甚至現在全世界都有小型的核電廠了，對不對？這是民進黨比較不排斥的，這個都可以好好去談，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：了解。"],["張委員啓楷：我們共同努力，希望繼民主基金會人事案之外，這次去談判外交部可以扮演一個更積極的角色，好不好？再繼續突破。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：我們化危機為轉機，不是只有去投降，好不好？謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["張委員啓楷：共同努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員上臺質詢。","接下來請李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8172089d52d43c26ff4553849aeee05e46292c42d4fa30ae9f4276e10a0b5a9ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:26:27 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我是當事人我在台下聽到真的是我實在很不想講我的案子吳思瑤的死亡連署86位佔4.09%"},{"start":238.598,"end":250.863,"text":"韓國瑜當初的死亡連署佔0.3%郭台銘那時候的死亡連署甚至連0.01%都不到伍思堯這一區的死亡幽靈連署高達86件佔4.09%錯假連署整個錯誤率高達34.5%這是台北市選委會提供的所以如果是檢察官辦案"},{"start":262.947,"end":290.898,"text":"他就循證據去辦嘛 我要把事情講清楚我不容有些人在這裡混淆 然後來鬥臭司法來施壓司法 我真的覺得比遺憾更遺憾好 接下來今天的主題喔 保密防諜人人有責防範共諜呢 就請國會一起來支持國安法案喔 夏業我年紀小的時候 我是沒有什麼機會看童話故事"},{"start":291.98,"end":300.925,"text":"我年紀小的時候我是翻著爸爸帶回家的黨外雜誌在看的所以對於過去很多戒嚴時期的軍閥大神"},{"start":302.483,"end":323.477,"text":"1980年的美麗島事件的軍閥大審這在那個年代讓很多長一輩的台灣人對於軍審這件事情它存有一個時代遺留的標籤就是過去國民黨執政的戒嚴時期軍審會拿來打壓迫害政治犯"},{"start":324.229,"end":342.948,"text":"美麗島的軍閥大神就是我們這一代人印象深刻的事情所以要撕掉這個標籤新的要推動的軍事審查制度不能再犯嘛未來在對象上不可能再發生破壞政治犯的狀況嘛還是國防部要來講因為對象不一樣嘛"},{"start":346.568,"end":374.746,"text":"委員好 針對剛剛委員提的這個部分其實這次的修正第一個就是我們對象部分一定是限定是現役軍人所以不會對平民也不會對政治犯現在也沒有這所謂的政治犯的辦案的狀況您先回答這個部分 下一頁我們要撕掉軍事審判在台灣人民心中另外一個標籤就是洪仲秋事件當初他沒有公開透明的審判機制還有軍中的階級"},{"start":376.067,"end":388.068,"text":"被霸凌所以軍中人權那個時候大家站出來以致於我們的軍事審判制度做了革新未來如果恢復的軍事審判制度會不會再發生同樣的洪仲秋的事件"},{"start":388.854,"end":412.523,"text":"報告委員 這個案件其實給我們的啟示也是非常大所以我們這次的修正部分當然會針對當時的審判制度是不是有要修正的部分一定會來檢討的 是所以不會再有下一個這樣的事件我們在新的軍事審判制度這個制度重新改革研議的時候一定要提醒彼此也要告訴社會再下一頁"},{"start":414.226,"end":435.995,"text":"現在早期的戒嚴時期軍審會拿來對抗對付政治犯然後在過去洪仲秋那個時代可能會拿來對於一般軍中的一般案件現在我們如果要恢復軍事審判是因應新生也不是新生事物啦而是說越來越嚴重的共諜滲透的事件嘛這是現在我們重啟這個制度的一個很重要的現在"},{"start":442.478,"end":451.924,"text":"我們要因應的危機所以說以這幾年來我看到共諜案的起訴人數是成長了400%從2024年已經到64位2021年只有16位"},{"start":458.368,"end":470.433,"text":"而我們一再的大家非常的訝異對於軍人佔共諜的比例不管退役或現役居然加總是佔66%也因為這樣子的與日俱增的共諜威脅在軍中"},{"start":478.516,"end":505.542,"text":"所以我們要嚴議啟動恢復軍事審判這是因應新的狀況我認為社會也會支持所以未來軍事審判重開機的話因為對象跟範圍都明確的界定所以不會針對一般平民他針對的是現役軍人而且是現役軍人當中犯陸海空軍刑法第二邊當中的重要的"},{"start":508.228,"end":521.526,"text":"所以說未來的制度配套非常重要它限縮了對象跟範圍是限於軍人職務上的犯罪為主如違反效忠國家職責罪章等等"},{"start":522.347,"end":530.352,"text":"然後未來我們要啟動配套的修法包括軍事法院組織法軍事檢察署的組織法也要來制定軍法官的人事條例要強化從事偵審的軍法官必須具備一定程度的軍事歷練然後呢在符合公平審判的原則正當法律程序的原則之下呢也要來採行全面強制的辯護廢除階級管轄等等也就是新的"},{"start":552.827,"end":565.371,"text":"恢復的軍事審判跟過去的軍事審判完全不一樣是不是是沒錯這個剛委員所提示的這些都是我們目前在修法的一個方向跟這個範圍那現在演繹到哪裡"},{"start":568.452,"end":587.329,"text":"目前我們針對細部條文都有在做調整那剛才也跟司法院副局長也講了我們這禮拜會跟司法院做一個交流跟協調所以預計如果跟司法院會嫌然後後續可能送到立法院審議的啟程會是落在"},{"start":588.936,"end":597.383,"text":"目前的規劃我們是在下半年會希望所以下會期渴望我們下半年會提到行政院去一下看行政院什麼時候再送過來所以我們有充分的時間我想未來在委員會各類的公聽會各類的制度的討論是必要的我們要撕下過去軍審在台灣人民心中那個負面的觀感負面的標籤這是我們努力的方向下一頁"},{"start":615.416,"end":633.282,"text":"但是共諜是無孔不入無所不在的宗教學術藝人網紅黑道乃至於民意代表這是過去我們所會種的各個面向而法務部今天的報告書裡頭部長你們特別提到科技掏空"},{"start":634.102,"end":637.945,"text":"利用這個危害經濟安全的這個危害產業競爭力的這種併購啦或者是挖角啦或者是來竊取商業機密等等的產業的危機還有借選的滲透是第二類"},{"start":650.354,"end":674.003,"text":"第三類當然就是軍中相關的發展組織特別是用利誘或色誘的方式來拍攝投降的影音來瓦解我方國軍的士氣來破壞軍紀無所不在行太多層面廣所以說呢防範共諜軍事審判只是其中一部分他是針對現役軍人他出賣國家違背職務下一頁"},{"start":679.025,"end":700.555,"text":"但是在社會面是很重要的禮拜六凱道超過五萬人站出來拒絕統戰人民的怒吼響徹雲霄另外一個事情呢是2024年啊公民監督聯盟對於立法院的年度代表字是什麼部長知道嗎"},{"start":702.472,"end":728.977,"text":"就是共匪的匪啊小心共匪有沒有在立法院呢居然2024年立法院的年度代表字被公民監督聯盟長期來監督觀察立法院的問證品質的居然匪這個字被貼上了立法院我覺得這個也是立法院要思緒的負面標籤所以怎麼做呢"},{"start":730.967,"end":758.795,"text":"民進黨推的國安實法如果立法院要撕掉那個匪的負面標籤請在野黨的委員一起來支持國安法案目前民進黨提出來的有實法喔我這邊就不贅述其實當中跟法務部跟國防部很多都相關譬如說反滲透法啦國家安全法等等可是目前為止光"},{"start":760.055,"end":787.482,"text":"立委附中登載報備就已經被擋了332次如果立法院要撕掉匪共匪就在立法院嗎這個標籤的話請藍白的委員不要再擋國安實法因為如果國安實法繼續擋我們想方設法想要針對軍事審判的制度提了好多配套的修法一樣擋住不好啊"},{"start":788.582,"end":799.797,"text":"對不對這是我們共同面對的困境跟僵局在下一頁不只如此啊藍白的委員不只反國安法案還推親中法案"},{"start":801.414,"end":830.393,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例國家安全戰略法不在即投票離島建設條例不只洗人口還要洗產地然後還要把國家安全戰略的總統職權要擴大到立法院來決議定之立法院可以監督甚至反滲透法的修正案還要限縮將刑事責任改為行政罰還天啊我們的立法院在扯後腿我們的立法院在鬥退擼尾"},{"start":831.954,"end":856.227,"text":"這只是現在在野黨的委員推出來的親中法案的冰山一角我真的很擔心今天召委排了我們未來想要恢復軍事審判有效的針對百分之六十六的軍人被滲透的這個對象來加強他的刑責加強他的防範透過一個更透明更公開的軍事審判制度可是你在立法院賣鬼啊"},{"start":860.114,"end":873.007,"text":"要怎麼辦下一頁剛剛的問題我知道你們很難回答因為連我是執政黨的黨團幹部我都很難回答我每天還在奮戰我最後要提醒喔"},{"start":874.315,"end":900.111,"text":"回到也是相關的主題中國的借選也是破壞台灣民主制度非常嚴重的一種破壞民主的行為法務部你們過去的專報提出幾大樣類境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤或是透過散佈假訊息的認知作戰我提醒你們有借選就有借罷"},{"start":901.909,"end":924.207,"text":"有介入選舉就會有介入罷免的未來的投票或是現在二階的連署都有可能就以現在發動罷免的幾個領銜人就以我自己的這一區罷免吳思耀的領銜人有非常明確的紅統背景"},{"start":925.188,"end":952.254,"text":"而罷免許智傑委員的領銜人他甚至也要查查他還有沒有具備中國籍我不知道這個要查所以說過去在選舉的時候都有選舉的專案嘛對不對那部長法務部針對有可能的會不會發生的境外勢力比照過去借選的方法現在來借罷介入罷免的民主"},{"start":953.581,"end":956.484,"text":"的這個手段你們會不會也啟動像選舉時期一樣的這種專案來強化"},{"start":962.02,"end":989.894,"text":"目前這個我們再來嚴厲我們請那個最高檢來嚴厲我要提醒你們因為同樣的都是境外敵對勢力透過各種方式不管認知作戰網路賭盤或是境外資金的介入來介入現在當然是在二階連署如果有未造的那就讓檢調去辦案但是這當中未來如果進入投票其實都很可能發生這個就會選舉叉叉"},{"start":990.914,"end":996.716,"text":"是所以你們要有選舉查查的專案比較民主的選舉我們的罷免也是民主制度的一環我們超前部署不分對象秉公處置因為我們捍衛的都是台灣中華民國的民主我在這裡提醒您好嗎提醒法務部那國防部的同仁我們繼續不曉得怎麼辦軍事審判制度如果就藍白在這裡任何國安法案都擋"},{"start":1019.025,"end":1029.961,"text":"我實在對於未來軍事審判制度要上路能不能夠有效來防範軍人的被滲透我都相對悲觀但我們不會放棄努力好嗎謝謝處長謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":959,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時13分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下國防部的代表也要一起，就是王處長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：也是非常遺憾，司法及法制委員會這個會期以來，不斷的、不斷的就個案來對官員為難，大家就來講制度、就來論法，一再的去講個案，而且甚至是當事人也要有起碼的利益迴避。針對剛剛王鴻薇委員所垂詢的事項，我想很簡要的還是需要做幾個歸納，第一個，民主不容造假，對不對？民主絕對不容造假，不管是過去國民黨執政時期的投票、作票，它會影響選舉的公正，或現在已經越來越少，但還是會發生的賄選，只要賄選就會有刑責，可能他當選也無效，所以在罷免這件事情上，一旦在連署涉及造假，他也應當有同樣民主不容造假的法律效力還有政治的效力，這是第一件事。","所以說民主不容造假，如果有違法事證，不管是藍的、綠的，不分對象都應當查辦，所以說現在中選會依職務告發，部長知道有幾件嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，41件。"],["吳委員思瑤：這41件全部都是罷藍的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：各黨派都有。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以中選會依職務告發的41件有藍有綠，有違法事證就要辦，因為民主不容造假，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，現在來偵辦的這些事件裡頭，其實法是誰修的？上個會期國民黨翁曉玲委員所提案的選罷法第九十八條之二，所以法是國民黨修的，第二個，證據是誰提供的？我以臺北市來講，臺北市所提供的這些證據是臺北市地方選委會提供的，地方選委會的主委是身兼臺北市政府的秘書長，也是蔣萬安親自任命的李泰興主委，他親自在議會的備詢就說了，所有在臺北市的死人連署、幽靈連署、造假連署都是誰查對、誰提報的呢？都是戶政事務所以及臺北市的選委會，所以現在檢調所偵辦的證據是誰提供的？就臺北市而言，就是臺北市政府所提供的，對不對？這第二件事情，法是誰修的？國民黨修的，證據是誰提供的？到目前為止，是地方選委會所查對、提報的，我這樣理解正確吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：正確。"],["吳委員思瑤：第三個，犯罪就是犯罪，違法就是違法，不論是誰，該辦就辦，司法偵辦的核心是證據而不是政治，我已經N次說明了，所以剛剛提到提供證據給檢調的是臺北市長蔣萬安主管的選委會，我不曉得為什麼有委員一直在這裡為難官員，而且是就個案。","我是當事人，我在臺下聽到真的是，我實在很不想講我的案子。吳思瑤的死亡連署86位，占4.09%，韓國瑜當初的死亡連署占0.3%，郭台銘那時的死亡連署甚至連0.01%都不到，吳思瑤這一區的死亡幽靈連署高達86件，占4.09%，錯假連署整個錯誤率高達34.5%，這是臺北市選委會提供的，所以如果是檢察官辦案，他就循證據去辦，我要把事情講清楚，我不容有些人在這裡混淆，然後來鬥臭司法、來施壓司法，我真的覺得比遺憾更遺憾。","接下來是今天的主題，保密防諜，人人有責，防範共諜就請國會一起來支持國安法案。我年紀小的時候，我是沒有什麼機會看童話故事，我年紀小的時候，我是翻著爸爸帶回家的黨外雜誌在看的，所以對於過去很多戒嚴時期的軍法大審、1980年的美麗島事件的軍法大審，這在那個年代，讓很多長一輩的臺灣人對於軍審這件事情存有一個時代遺留的標籤，就是過去國民黨執政的戒嚴時期，軍審會拿來打壓迫害政治犯，美麗島的軍法大審就是我們這一代人印象深刻的事情，所以要撕掉這個標籤，新的、要推動的軍事審查制度不能再犯，未來在對象上不可能再發生迫害政治犯的狀況嘛？還是國防部要來講？因為對象不一樣嘛？"],["王處長正誼：委員好。針對剛剛委員提的這個部分，其實這次的修正，第一個就是我們對象部分一定是現役軍人……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以不會對平民、也不會對政治犯嘛？"],["王處長正誼：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在也沒有所謂的政治犯辦案的狀況，您先回答這個部分。","我們要撕掉軍事審判在臺灣人民心中另外一個標籤，就是洪仲丘事件，當初他沒有公開透明的審判機制還有軍中的階級，他被霸凌，所以軍中人權……那個時候大家站出來，以至於我們的軍事審判制度做了革新，未來如果恢復的軍事審判制度會不會再發生同樣的洪仲丘事件？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，這個案件給我們的啟示也是非常大，這次修正當然會針對當時的審判制度是不是有要修正的部分，一定會來檢討、來修改。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以不會再有下一個這樣的事件，我們在新的軍事審判制度重新改革研議的時候，一定要提醒彼此，也要告訴社會。"],["王處長正誼：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：早期的戒嚴時期，軍審會拿來對抗、對付政治犯，在過去洪仲丘那個時代，可能會拿來對軍中的一般案件，現在如果我們要恢復軍事審判，是因應新生，也不是新生事務啦，而是越來越嚴重的共諜滲透事件，這是現在我們重啟這個制度一個很重要、必須因應的危機。所以這幾年來，我看到共諜案的起訴人數是成長了400%，2024年已經到64位，2021年只有16位，而大家一再非常訝異，對於軍人占共諜的比例，不管退役或現役居然加總是占66%，也因為這樣子與日俱增的共諜威脅在軍中，所以我們要研議啟動恢復軍事審判，這是因應新的狀況，我認為社會也會支持。","未來軍事審判重開機的話，因為對象跟範圍都明確的界定，所以不會針對一般平民，它針對的是現役軍人，而且是現役軍人犯陸海空軍刑法第二編當中重要的……"],["王處長正誼：軍事犯。"],["吳委員思瑤：軍事犯。所以未來的制度配套非常重要，它限縮的對象跟範圍是限於軍人職務上的犯罪為主，如違反效忠國家職責罪章等等。未來我們要啟動配套的修法，包括軍事法院組織法、軍事檢察署的組織法，也要來制定軍法官的人事條例，要強化從事偵審的軍法官必須具備一定程度的軍事歷練，然後在符合公平審判的原則、正當法律程序的原則之下，也要來採行全面強制的辯護、廢除階級管轄等等，也就是新的、恢復的軍事審判跟過去的軍事審判完全不一樣，是不是？"],["王處長正誼：是，沒錯。剛剛委員所提示的這些都是我們目前在修法的方向跟範圍。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在研議到哪裡？"],["王處長正誼：目前我們針對細部條文都有在做調整，剛才司法院副秘書長也講了，我們這禮拜會跟司法院做交流協調跟溝通。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以如果跟司法院會銜後，預計後續送到立法院審議的期程可能會是落在？"],["王處長正誼：目前的規劃，我們希望在下半年……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以下個會期我們可望好好討論？"],["王處長正誼：沒有，我們下半年會提到行政院去，看行政院……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，看行政院什麼時候再送過來？OK，所以我們有充分的時間，我想未來在委員會、各類的公聽會，各類制度的討論是必要的，我們要撕下過去軍審在臺灣人民心中負面的觀感、負面的標籤，這是我們努力的方向。","但是共諜是無孔不入、無所不在的，宗教、學術、藝人、網紅、黑道，乃至於民意代表，這是過去我們所彙整的各個面向。而法務部今天的報告書裡頭，部長，你們特別提到科技掏空，利用危害經濟安全、危害產業競爭力的這種併購啦或者是挖角啦，或者是來竊取商業機密等等產業的危機，還有介選的滲透，這是第二類。第三類當然就是軍中相關的發展組織，特別是用利誘或色誘的方式來拍攝投降的影音，來瓦解我方國軍的士氣、來破壞軍紀，無所不在，形態多、層面廣，所以防範共諜，軍事審判只是其中一部分，它是針對現役軍人出賣國家、違背職務。但是在社會面是很重要的，禮拜六凱道超過五萬人站出來拒絕統戰，人民的怒吼響徹雲霄，另外一個事情是2024年公民監督聯盟對於立法院的年度代表字是什麼，部長，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡面有寫……"],["吳委員思瑤：就是共匪的「匪」啊！小心共匪有沒有在立法院呢？居然2024年立法院的年度代表字……公民監督聯盟長期以來監督與觀察立法院問政品質，居然「匪」這個字被貼上了立法院，我覺得這個也是立法院要撕去的負面標籤。所以怎麼做呢？民進黨推的國安10法，如果立法院要撕掉「匪」的負面標籤，請在野黨的委員一起來支持國安法案。","目前民進黨提出來的有10法，我這邊就不贅述，其實當中跟法務部、國防部很多都相關，譬如說反滲透法、國家安全法等等，可是目前為止，光立委赴中登載報備就已經被擋了332次。如果立法院要撕掉「匪」以及「共匪就在立法院嗎？」這個標籤的話，請藍白的委員不要再擋國安10法。因為如果繼續擋國安10法，我們想方設法、想針對軍事審判的制度提了好多配套的修法，一樣被擋住就沒效用了，對不對？這是我們共同面對的困境跟僵局。","不只如此，藍白的委員不只反國安法案，還推親中法案耶！兩岸人民關係條例、國家安全戰略法、不在籍投票、離島建設條例，不只洗人口，還要洗產地；然後還要把國家安全戰略的總統職權要擴大到立法院來決議定之，立法院可以監督；甚至反滲透法的修正案還要限縮，將刑事責任改為行政罰鍰。天啊！我們的立法院在扯後腿，我們的立法院在「倒退嚕」耶！這只是現在在野黨的委員推出來的親中法案的冰山一角，我真的很擔心，今天召委排了……我們未來想要恢復軍事審判，有效的針對66%的軍人、被滲透的對象來加強他的刑責、加強他的防範，透過一個更透明、更公開的軍事審判制度。可是在立法院卻過不了啊！要怎麼辦？要怎麼辦？","剛剛的問題我知道你們很難回答，因為連我是執政黨的黨團幹部，我都很難回答，我每天還在奮戰。最後要提醒，回到也是相關的主題─中國的介選，也是一種非常嚴重破壞臺灣民主制度的行為。法務部過去的專案報告提出幾大樣類，境外資金的介選、網路選舉的賭盤，或是透過散布假訊息的認知作戰，我提醒你們，有介選就有介罷，有介入選舉就會有介入罷免，無論在未來的投票或是現在二階的連署都有可能。就以現在發動罷免的幾個領銜人來說，以我自己的這一區，罷免吳思瑤的領銜人有非常明確的紅統背景；而罷免許智傑委員的領銜人甚至也要查查他還有沒有具備中國籍，我不知道，這個要查。所以過去在選舉的時候都有選舉的專案，對不對？部長，法務部針對境外勢力可能比照過去介選的方法，現在來介罷、介入民主罷免的手段，你們會不會也啟動像選舉時期一樣的專案來強化？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前這個我們再來研議，我們請最高檢來研議。"],["吳委員思瑤：我要提醒你們，因為同樣的都是境外敵對勢力透過各種方式，不管認知作戰、網路賭盤或是境外資金來介入，現在當然是在二階連署，如果有偽造的，那就讓檢調去辦案。但是這當中，未來如果進入投票，其實都很可能發生……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就會選舉查察。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以你們要有選舉查察的專案，比照民主的選舉，我們的罷免也是民主制度的一環，我們超前部署，不分對象秉公處置，因為我們捍衛的都是臺灣中華民國的民主，我在這裡提醒您，好嗎？提醒法務部。國防部的同仁，我們繼續……不曉得怎麼辦，關於軍事審判制度，如果藍白在這裡任何國安法案都擋，我實在對於未來軍事審判制度要上路，能不能夠有效防範軍人被滲透都相對悲觀，但我們不會放棄努力，好嗎？謝謝處長、謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時30分）","繼續（11時37分）"],["主席：我們接下來繼續開會。","翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","下一位請鄭天財委員進行詢答，鄭天財委員詢答完畢之後，我們就處理臨時提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 邀請我們的林部長"},{"start":9.557,"end":34.916,"text":"部長 早安這個之前這個裴洛西來的時候有一些可能錯誤的資訊嘛就提到說我們外交部有花錢去請裴洛西來那事實查核中心有查核是沒有但是我們外交部每年有這個依照美國法定的規範這個每個月編列十萬美金去跟這個美國的政治的公安公司來進行對美的遊說嘛就是過去每個月十萬那一年就大概三千多萬的台幣那今年還是一樣保持一樣的規模嗎"},{"start":39.413,"end":59.85,"text":"我來請我們北美市長 因為這個詳細的數字會業務範圍來 請是 我們今年到目前為止 聘用的公關跟往年的規模是差不多的差不多 對 目前是差不多一個月差不多十萬嘛 美金這個數字的話 我可能需要再verify一下"},{"start":60.43,"end":84.032,"text":"好沒問題那除了這些給公安公司依照法令給付的依照美國法令給付之外那譬如說最近這個龐培奧美國國務卿有來台灣嘛那有媒體披露說有民間的公司有花錢邀請他過來那我想跟部長確認民間公司花的這筆資金跟我們外交部有沒有任何的關係"},{"start":85.703,"end":107.708,"text":"因為是不是有花什麼資金因為前後的有一些查核好像也不太一致不過我們沒有沒有就是民間公司怎麼做他們的事就算他有花錢我們不太了解也跟我們外交部沒有任何的金錢上面的金流關係好那我想確認一下因為每年我就大概了解一下規模金額的一個規模那如果說每年就是這筆公關"},{"start":108.948,"end":133.837,"text":"的費用的話那三千多萬台幣嘛大家會期待多這三千多萬的一個遊說費用能夠在適時的這個在應該要發揮作用的時候能夠發揮作用嘛那我想跟部長確認那現在美國川普上台就任之後那剛剛很多人討論到了一個經濟問題那我們每年花費的這個這個公關的費用目的是為了要遊說嘛有沒有在這時候派上用場"},{"start":135.65,"end":159.856,"text":"我們長期對美國的不管公關或是說這些諮詢都在進行中效果也都良好我想當然我們是因為理念相近他們其實美國的法律非常嚴格的他們的政治人物也都有遵行所以這一點倒是請放心那效果來講我想我們如果從推崇效果不一定直接相關啦但是透過各種的管道去就是能夠這個對美國"},{"start":162.597,"end":189.006,"text":"因為美國是個民主國家,他行政哪有國會還是美國政府當然就是都以合法的方式去進行公關對,我是說對象對美嘛,對美是一個輪廓,大的輪廓嘛那現在好像行政跟國會部門都有啊因為現在大家都會認為說好像川普也沒什麼在第三院或眾院嘛常常就是一人講的話然後就當作政策宣布嘛所以我要確認一下這筆錢"},{"start":191.357,"end":216.674,"text":"主要的對象是可能白宮、參院或是眾院你們的重心是在哪邊?我們的美處跟公關公司他們會有最好的判斷因為效果是都是很好的那這件事情你有沒有跟公關公司說就是台灣現在面臨到這麼大的一個經貿問題那請他們在公關上面給予協助那他們有沒有有一些具體的您能講我不知道你能不能講有沒有具體的一個反饋"},{"start":218.55,"end":241.024,"text":"有,因為美國這個是個多元民主的國家,它的遊說也有法律的依據都是依這樣辦理,那一定是效果是有的那他們怎麼,那既然是依法,那這部分會,像美國就會公開金額或什麼嗎?那內容會不會公開?這個委屈依照美國的法令,依照美國的法令辦理會公開嗎?可以公開嗎?"},{"start":241.833,"end":257.896,"text":"就是該揭露就揭露沒有揭露的我想這個我們在執行單位他們一定有他們的判斷既然可以揭露的話那有沒有我們這邊可以明確的實質的內容看委員對哪一點如果有比較具體的您希望能夠隨循我們來看怎麼樣了解因為這樣子比較籠統一點我想只是說就這個"},{"start":267.139,"end":291.597,"text":"經貿問題我們公關公司有沒有具體的協助我們外交部我們中華民國政府我舉個例子來講當然比如說我們台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判過程那怎麼樣得到更多的支持這都需要很多資訊那他們透過這個遊說政治的一個法律的依據去進行公關的顧問或者是怎麼樣去溝通所以效果都是良好的"},{"start":291.817,"end":314.259,"text":"我想其實經費只要是合法的我們都不會有太多意見只要符合美國法令那就政治公關的工作或許跟我們國內的政治環境不太一樣當然它是合法但是我們也希望說這筆錢每年3000多萬給了美國公關公司那它就要有相對應的一些我們需要它的時候它必須要有相對應的一些功能來協助我們的政府"},{"start":315.801,"end":322.353,"text":"對 這是一定的要求那你希望說我們過去可能大家認得說我們對面的管道不是很多"},{"start":323.277,"end":346.565,"text":"我跟委員包括韓國瑜院長能夠進入到國會參加總統就職典禮這也不是一般公關其實我們跟美國的關係是真的除了這種公關以外最重要是我們的理念一致我們每處的經營真的是包括所有的這些可能性都不是金錢可以去評估的也是像美國政治它是你要講道理的"},{"start":350.306,"end":364.479,"text":"我們就期待我們通過立法院通過的預算給我們外交部用那錢既然花了那就希望在適當的時候要有適當的一個效果我們不斷的來精進那透過我們已經委託的機關那請他們用力的協助好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時20分）謝謝主席，邀請我們的林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長早安。之前裴洛西來的時候，可能有一些錯誤的資訊提到外交部花錢去請裴洛西來，事實查核中心有查核，是沒有，但是我們外交部每年有依照美國法令的規範，每個月編列10萬美金，跟美國政治公關公司進行對美的遊說，過去每個月10萬，一年就大概三千多萬臺幣，今年還是保持一樣的規模嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我請北美司長說明，因為這個攸關詳細的數字或業務範圍。"],["王司長良玉：我們今年到目前為止聘用的公關，跟往年的規模是差不多的。"],["廖委員先翔：差不多？"],["王司長良玉：對！目前是差不多。"],["廖委員先翔：一個月差不多是10萬美金嘛？"],["王司長良玉：這個數字的話，我可能需要再verify一下。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒問題。除了依照美國法令給付公關公司之外，譬如說，最近龐培歐美國前國務卿有來臺灣，有媒體披露民間公司有花錢邀請他過來。我想跟部長確認民間公司花的這筆資金，跟我們外交部有沒有任何關係？"],["林部長佳龍：是不是有花什麼資金，因為前後的部分也有一些查核，好像也不太一致，不過我們沒有、政府沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：民間公司怎麼做，那是他們的事，就算他們有花錢……"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們不太瞭解。"],["廖委員先翔：也跟我們外交部沒有任何金錢上面的金流關係？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我想確認一下，我就大概瞭解一下金額的規模，如果每年就是這筆公關費用，即三千多萬臺幣，大家會期待這三千多萬的遊說費用，能夠適時在應該要發揮作用的時候發揮作用。我想跟部長確認，現在美國川普上臺就任之後，剛剛很多人討論到的經濟問題，我們每年花費的公關費用，目的是為了要遊說，有沒有在這時候派上用場？"],["林部長佳龍：我們長期對美國的不管是公關或諮詢都在進行中，效果也都良好。當然我們是因為理念相近，其實美國的法律非常嚴格，他們的政治人物也都有遵行，所以這一點倒是請放心。效果來講，我們如果推崇效果，不一定直接相關啦！但是透過各種管道能夠對美國……因為美國是個民主國家，其行政還有國會……"],["廖委員先翔：這筆錢最主要的對象是參議院、眾議院，還是美國政府？"],["林部長佳龍：當然都是以合法的方式去進行公關。"],["廖委員先翔：對，我是說對象，對美是一個大的輪廓，現在好像……"],["林部長佳龍：行政跟國會部門都有啊！"],["廖委員先翔：現在大家都會認為，好像川普也沒什麼在理參議院或眾議院，常常就是一人講的話就當作政策宣布，所以我要確認一下這筆錢主要的對象可能是白宮、參議院或是眾議院；你們的重心是在哪邊，我們才能夠判斷其效力在哪裡。"],["林部長佳龍：我想我們的美處跟公關公司會有最好的判斷，我們都是信任，因為效果都是很好的。"],["廖委員先翔：這件事情你們有沒有跟公關公司說，臺灣現在面臨這麼大的經貿問題，請他們在公關上面給予協助？他們有沒有一些具體的反饋？我不知道你能不能講。"],["林部長佳龍：有，因為美國是多元民主的國家，他的遊說也有法律的依據，都是依這樣來辦理，效果一定是有的。"],["廖委員先翔：既然是依法，像美國就會公開金額或什麼的，那內容會不會公開？"],["林部長佳龍：這個就是……"],["廖委員先翔：依照美國的法令？"],["林部長佳龍：對，依照美國的法令辦理。"],["廖委員先翔：會公開嗎？可以公開嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：該揭露就揭露，沒有揭露的，我想在執行單位，他們一定有他們的判斷。"],["廖委員先翔：既然要揭露、既然可以揭露的話，你們這邊有沒有明確的、實質的內容，就是遊說公司替我們做了什麼事情？"],["林部長佳龍：看委員關心哪一點，如果有比較具體的部分您希望能夠垂詢，我們來看怎麼樣瞭解。現在比較籠統一點，我想只是……"],["廖委員先翔：就經貿問題，公關公司有沒有具體地協助我們外交部、我們中華民國政府？"],["林部長佳龍：我舉個例子來講，比如說，臺美21世紀貿易倡議的談判過程怎麼樣得到更多支持，這都需要很多的資訊。他們透過遊說政治的法律依據去進行公關、顧問，或者是怎麼樣去溝通，這效果都是良好的。"],["廖委員先翔：其實經費只要是合法的，我們都不會有太多的意見，只要符合美國法令，政治公關的工作或許跟我們國內的政治環境不太一樣，當然它是合法的，但是我們也希望這筆錢每年三千多萬給了美國的公關公司，當我們需要它的時候，它必須要有相對應的一些功能來協助我們的政府。我也希望……"],["林部長佳龍：對，這是一定的要求，也會落實。"],["廖委員先翔：過去可能大家認為我們對美的管道不是很多，也希望錢花了……"],["林部長佳龍：很多啦！我跟委員報告，譬如韓國瑜院長能夠進入國會參加總統就職典禮，這也不是一般的公關，其實我們跟美國的關係，除了這種公關以外，最主要是我們的理念一致，我們美處的經營是「無暝無日」的，所有的這些可能性都不是金錢可以去評估的。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，我……"],["林部長佳龍：現在的美國政治，你要講道理的。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，我們就期待，立法院通過的預算給外交部用，錢既然花了，希望在適當的時候要有適當的效果，以上，再麻煩外交部。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們不斷地來精進。"],["廖委員先翔：透過我們已經委託的機關，請他們用力地協助，好不好？謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝立法院的支持。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員上臺質詢。","接下來由王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8c77bd8985c5e1f28f4553849aeee05e46292c42d4fa30ae9fa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:13:09 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都尊重啊"},{"start":154.463,"end":177.08,"text":"但現在問題是在行政程序上今天調查局是在隔壁啊 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但是最快的時間嘛 因為這個事情這個都形容詞啦 他說這個禮拜會做完嘛那我說他做完了以後 接下來行政究責 行政上要怎麼處理 就是部長您的我們會加速來進行 因為我要了解 看到他的調查報告的涉及 因為我希望他能夠更周延啦沒有關係啦 因為他那麼久的時間涉及的人員的業務"},{"start":336.739,"end":356.946,"text":"盡速辦理好盡速辦理那第二個事情是這個事情您是什麼時候知道的我是在這個就是有委員去質疑是所謂一個核心的到那個時間點才知道對專門委員我才知道"},{"start":359.656,"end":380.865,"text":"沒關係 接下來的問題會進入非常深的深水區那可能也不是你可以回答 沒關係我今天詢問你的問題就到此為止就先打住但我期待喔 政鋒的說這個禮拜可以做完嘛那我希望 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增加一個縣就好增加一個縣原住民族自治縣 一個縣那個只要是跟這個當然要經過 我的條文當時是這樣都要經過"},{"start":383.271,"end":412.154,"text":"各縣市政府以及議會的同意譬如說譬如說這個以南投縣來講南投縣信義鄉跟這個仁愛鄉他要合併跟其他的鄉要合併成立自治縣的話必須要經過南投縣議會南投縣政府的同意譬如說"},{"start":413.48,"end":442.444,"text":"這個加一阿里山鄉也是一樣阿里山鄉事實上這些我上次這些縣都願意啦為什麼他那麼遙遠偏遠以高雄市來講部長你在高雄市待過嗎那三個區要離開的話我相信高雄市議會都同意都會同意是這樣的所以這個部分的這個未來希望能夠"},{"start":443.293,"end":443.994,"text":"能夠繼續的討論 好不好謝謝時間的關係 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":621,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時1分）主席，有請部長還有鍾副主委。"],["主席：劉部長、鍾副主委有請。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好，鍾副主委好。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：就是要修法，因為既然以民族去成立有困難的話，那是不是最起碼增加一個縣就好了？就是增加原住民族自治縣，當然是要通過我提的條文，就是都要經過各縣市政府以及議會的同意，譬如說，以南投縣來講，南投縣的信義鄉跟仁愛鄉要跟其他的鄉合併成立自治縣的話，就必須要經過南投縣議會、南投縣政府的同意，像嘉義阿里山鄉也是一樣，事實上，這些縣都願意，為什麼？因為它是那麼遙遠、偏遠。以高雄市來講，部長，你在高雄市待過，如果那3個區要離開的話，我相信高雄市議會都會同意，應該是這樣的，所以這個部分希望未來能夠繼續的討論，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位蘇巧慧委員改書面。","下一位請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","登記發言的委員除了不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。黃建賓委員、蘇巧慧委員所提的書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 本席有請部長 劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好部長好 今天我們這個召委非常的用心等於是我們這個所謂的行政區劃法已經是一部行政區劃法草案它已經是蒙城的一部草案"},{"start":44.079,"end":63.192,"text":"您知道從什麼時候開始到現在嗎?從好像民國八十一年對 民國八十一年到現在但歷經藍綠都沒有人好像真正的很重視而且整個的來推動所以今天本席在開始質詢跟您討論之前我想我們這一個"},{"start":67.15,"end":93.658,"text":"这个行政区划法的草案它关乎的刚刚前面很多委员都有讲到不管是我们这个整个的治理效能生活圈的整合甚至民主的原则各方面它凸显了很多问题所以我们才会觉得说这个草案不能再躺在那我们必须好好的来讨论当然本席也听到部长您刚刚回答很多委员你都"},{"start":94.278,"end":120.713,"text":"等於說你很有經驗不管擔任民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長你覺得這個法案要討論會有很多的很繁雜的甚至也很多的困難很多的阻礙但是本席在這裡要先講的就是說難勝能勝所以才難能可貴我們的這個中央單位我們不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭應該多做一些解決民眾的問題"},{"start":123.234,"end":148.339,"text":"所以今天的讨论包括等一下本席提到的点也许有些会跟新竹有关但是我觉得我都不预设立场我也不为了不管是自己或是我们纯粹新竹县的利益而是要站在民众的需求还有这个时代的变迁它应该要能够来因应所以部长您认同吧这样的立场"},{"start":149.279,"end":174.781,"text":"徐委員所提的我很多都認同只有一件事情就是我們沒有搞鬥爭我們都是依法來行政尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法它是涉及到跨政黨跟跨縣市的我們感受就是說中央多做一些真正治理還有對民眾好的少搞一些對立接著本席要來就教我們現在整個的行政區劃法"},{"start":175.862,"end":204.267,"text":"它常常是都不太能反映都市的人口的都市的發展跟人口的變遷所以產生了很多的問題等於是凸顯出我們行政區劃的這個要盡快來進行譬如我想剛剛王美惠委員也有提到我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來已經等於嘉義市人口已經有26萬加上嘉義縣"},{"start":205.367,"end":221.632,"text":"那这两个县市它分治那包含新竹县市也是一样新竹县现在人口已经60万新竹市46万加起来已经有100多万100万以上那现在像这种小县市"},{"start":223.172,"end":250.812,"text":"我們人民生活有很多的嫌惡設施包含像生命紀念園區像焚化爐大家都不是很想要但是如果這種生活圈或是區域的這種治理它可以整合的話那就不見得每個縣市它一定要有自己的可能像我們其實新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市"},{"start":251.412,"end":270.277,"text":"當然因為人口的一直的增加大概新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到應該也是會碰到就是說我們這個縣市所以站在這樣子您這個中央的立場是如何"},{"start":272.719,"end":286.318,"text":"報告委員那個其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的你沒有辦法容納所有的從國家發展到地方村里組織的部分所以我的意思就是說應該這樣講我們行政區劃你要去討論的時候"},{"start":290.1,"end":309.372,"text":"你一定會跟地方政府嘛跟所謂民意代表去溝通的時候那你的主力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題嘛所以您也一直的講我剛剛聽前面一些委員都說很困難很繁雜還有可能"},{"start":310.192,"end":323.777,"text":"有些人會同意有些人你說什麼大零價少然後多零價大零價小多零價少所以這個東西就是所以我本席的意思就是說我們應該是去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的"},{"start":328.821,"end":345.928,"text":"那我想您大概不是很懂我們的意思那接著我也譬如說像新竹縣市合併之前吵過你應該有印象那像這個就是新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期它其實在民國70幾年之前本來是合併的後來分開了"},{"start":350.089,"end":372.792,"text":"那現在分開以後各自發展得非常好然後又有這種合併的聲音但是本席要一直強調我沒有特定的立場但是新竹縣市你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在那很多的科學園區的工作的人口他是來自新竹縣市的所以新竹縣到新竹市有一個叫金國橋的"},{"start":374.033,"end":399.206,"text":"他這一條橋已經長期塞車20幾年了沒有解決因為縣市的分治縣市的分治沒有解決所以竹科的人可能正常時間不是上下班時間我可能騎車或開車20分鐘到上下班時間一個小時那如果再加上下雨一個半小時"},{"start":400.616,"end":410.64,"text":"這個就是一個很大的問題再來本席這個一個統計數字你看一下我們以這個稅收新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第五"},{"start":415.483,"end":442.975,"text":"贏過另外兩個六都六都的桃園市跟台南市但是我們得到新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第九就加起來它的得到的比例是第九那我這樣講不是凸顯說我要爭取什麼我們今天不管升格或不升格不能是利益考量但是你看我講的二十幾年的塞車情況"},{"start":444.625,"end":468.43,"text":"其實大家都現在現在每一個人都覺得這個我在這邊住30年20幾年永遠塞車我們中央也沒有協助你也知道一個交通的整個改善拓寬這不可能地方縣市政府可以這個跟這個我們整個的區域計畫是有關的那再來因為時間關係最後我要再提一點就是我們"},{"start":469.744,"end":490.419,"text":"整個的這個區域規劃尤其是升格它不是一種獎勵升格像這個你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例譬如我舉例像桃園市桃園市升格之後它的面積一樣人口數升格後升格前沒有差很多"},{"start":491.019,"end":502.975,"text":"但是因為他是直轄市所以變成他的公務人員新增了三千多人他的財政負擔也是一年人事費也增加了一百多億那實際上"},{"start":505.188,"end":530.485,"text":"这个服务的量能跟品质有没有比较好不知道但是可能未来如果要考虑这个的话包含嘉义县市新竹县市或其他县市你要合并的时候你一样这么大的面积人口数你合并之后它也不会急剧可是你如果合并之后你的这个人事费还有人事的这相关规定这个都要考量"},{"start":531.225,"end":540.05,"text":"您有聽懂本席表達的所以這些未來可能都是那我們今天因為主席排了這個案我們大家必須來正視必須來正視"},{"start":543.618,"end":567.966,"text":"所以這個很多縣市然後再還有一個彰化縣彰化縣在台中升格之後其實整個彰化縣的人口也整個有吸食效應也這樣離開所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年這個行政區區劃法草案到現在本來只有一個直轄市現在變六個可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡"},{"start":568.726,"end":593.645,"text":"那你這個職強式升格之後對旁邊的縣市它造成的影響跟效益這些我們都希望這個中央能夠來重視那現在既然如果要開啟本席是認為就是說是不是要不斷的溝通您一直說沒有共識沒有共識更要不斷的溝通討論更加努力的來凝聚共識那"},{"start":594.145,"end":603.26,"text":"如果能夠達成而且能夠對台灣我們各縣市的不管是生活區域治理各方面能夠更好我們希望"},{"start":604.625,"end":633.233,"text":"您这内政部长这边也许跟院长反映总统反映我们应该积极来做刚刚本席没提到就是北北极的这个大生活圈甚至大台北地区的这个交通各方面所以不是我们民众不希望只有到台风架才有所有区域治理的整合我们希望生活上各方面也都能够改善今天就是反映民意也希望部长部长你最后有没有什么要回应的"},{"start":636.397,"end":661.448,"text":"你們非常的關心也非常的了解狀況了您剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格升格是最重要不是只有合併但是就有人提到說那新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起這是一個那還有一個您剛提到中張投那彰化跟桃園中張投跟南投要不要跟台中一起那還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格但是旁邊的雲林跟"},{"start":663.209,"end":680.094,"text":"其他的縣市會不會就有不同的意見就是說這個是我們在考量當中啊就是跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實是很重要還有一個您提到零幣效應有這個焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常啊"},{"start":680.914,"end":697.08,"text":"大家都不希望那個化到自己的選區裡面那這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾所以為什麼到現在為止啊有些比較小的這個縣市啊他們的這個這個林碧效應應該有的這個焚化爐都沒有以我們在高雄的例子來講"},{"start":698.41,"end":718.322,"text":"我們遠從這個中部還有到東部都代收幫忙處理這個環境的廢棄物那其實是非常大的困擾甚至跨離島都有那為什麼因為就是跟區域治理也產生不同的困擾所以也是提供給委員做參考那我們當然會來努力 這些我知道但這個跟每個行政首長他"},{"start":719.082,"end":736.472,"text":"要來做而且怎麼樣去突破這個都有關那剛剛你既然講到新竹縣市最後最後我想講一下當初新竹縣市的升格會為什麼會最後失敗而且被社會指責是因為當時只是一黨之私"},{"start":736.772,"end":762.843,"text":"因人涉事所以造成了一些问题所以我们希望行政区画要公开透明而且要长期规划我本席最后强调人民的利益公众的利益是唯一考量而且是最重要的考量希望部长我们接下来如果中央要来推动也不要因为很多困难都不沟通不凝聚不去讨论所以我们希望还是要进步谢谢谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時48分）好，謝謝主席。本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。今天我們召委非常的用心，所謂的行政區劃法草案已經是一部蒙塵的草案，您知道從什麼時候開始到現在嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好像是民國81年嗎？已經很久了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對，從民國81年到現在，歷經藍綠好像都沒有人真正重視而且整個來推動，所以今天本席在開始質詢之前跟您討論，有關這個行政區劃法草案所關乎的，剛剛前面很多委員都有講到，不管是我們整個治理效能、生活圈的整合，甚至民主的原則各方面，它凸顯了很多問題，所以我們才會覺得這個草案不能再躺在那裡了，我們必須好好來討論。當然，本席也聽到部長您剛剛回答很多委員，等於說你很有經驗，不管擔任民意代表或是擔任行政首長，你覺得這個法案的討論會有很多、很繁雜的，甚至也有很多的困難、很多的阻礙！但是本席在這裡要先講的就是「難勝能勝」，所以才難能可貴，我們的中央單位不要只搞政治對立或鬥爭，應該多做一些事來解決民眾的問題，所以今天的討論包括等一下本席提到的點，也許有些會跟新竹有關，但是我都不預設立場，我也不為了自己或是純粹新竹縣的利益，而是要站在民眾的需求還有時代的變遷，這些都應該要能夠來因應。所以部長，您認同這樣的立場吧？"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員所提的，我很多都認同，只有一件事情，就是我們沒有搞鬥爭，我們都是依法來行政。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。"],["劉部長世芳：尤其今天所提到的行政區劃法，它是涉及到跨政黨和跨縣市。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說那個心思。OK！OK！我們的感受就是請中央多做一些真正的治理還有對民眾好的，少搞一些對立。好，接著本席要來就教，現在整個行政區劃法常常都不能反映都市的發展跟人口的變遷，所以產生了很多問題，等於是凸顯出相關行政區劃要儘快來進行。譬如，剛剛王美惠委員也有提到，我們知道嘉義縣市人口加起來，嘉義市人口已經有26萬再加上嘉義縣，這兩個縣市它分治，包含新竹縣市也是一樣，新竹縣現在人口已經有60萬，新竹市46萬，加起來已經有一百多萬、100萬以上，現在像這種小縣市，我們人民的生活有很多嫌惡設施，包含像生命紀念園區、焚化爐，大家都不是很想要，但是如果這種生活圈或是區域治理可以整合的話，就不見得每個縣市一定要有自己的，像我們新竹縣市早期生命園區幾乎都在新竹市，但因為人口一直增加，新竹縣也開始在思考這個問題，所以這個部分在未來您應該也是會碰到，針對像我們這樣的縣市，所以您站在中央的立場是如何？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實行政區劃法就是我剛所說的，你沒有辦法容納所有的，從國家發展到地方村里組織……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對，我知道、我知道，所以我的意思就是說，我們要去討論行政區劃的時候，你一定會跟地方政府、民意代表溝通。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的阻力就來自於現在本席接下來要一直跟您談的這些問題，所以您也一直在講，我剛剛聽你回復前面一些委員，你就說很困難、很繁雜，還有可能有些人會同意，你還說什麼大凌駕小、多凌駕少等等，所以本席的意思就是說，我們應該去討論怎麼樣對這個區域是好的，對不對？我想，您大概不是很懂我們的意思，接著我以新竹縣市合併為例，之前有吵過，你應該有印象，新竹縣市合併是因為新竹縣市長期……其實在民國七十幾年之前本來是合併的，後來分開了，現在分開以後，各自發展得非常好，然後又有這種合併的聲音，但是本席要一直強調，我沒有特定的立場，但是你也知道最大的新竹科學園區在新竹縣市，很多的科學園區的工作人口來自新竹縣市，所以新竹縣到新竹市有一條經國橋，這條橋已經長期塞車二十幾年沒有解決，因為縣市分治導致沒有解決，所以竹科的人在正常時間（不是上下班時間）可能騎車或開車20分鐘就到了，但是在上下班時間要1個小時，如果再加上下雨，可能要一個半小時，這就是一個很大的問題。","再來，一個統計數字你看一下，我們以稅收來看，新竹縣市加起來的稅收是全國排名第5，贏過另外兩個六都──桃園市及臺南市，但是新竹縣市得到補助款的比例是全國第9，就是加起來得到的比例是第9，我這樣講不是凸顯我要爭取什麼，我們今天不管升格或不升格，不能是利益考量，但是你看我講的，二十幾年的塞車情況，其實現在每個人都覺得自己在這邊住二、三十年，永遠塞車，中央也沒有協助，你也知道整個交通的改善、拓寬不可能地方縣市政府就可以，這個跟整個區域計畫是有關的。","再來因為時間的關係，最後我要再提一點，就是整個區域規劃，尤其是升格，它不是一種獎勵，你應該知道地方行政機關組織條例，譬如我舉例像桃園市，桃園市升格之後，它的面積一樣，人口數升格前後沒有差很多，但是因為它是直轄市，所以變成它的公務人員新增了三千多人，它的財政負擔人事費一年也增加了一百多億，實際上服務量能跟品質有沒有比較好？不知道，但是可能未來如果要考慮這個的話，包含嘉義縣市、新竹縣市或其他縣市要合併的時候，一樣這麼大的面積、人口數合併之後，它也不會集聚嘛！可是如果合併之後，人事費還有人事相關規定都要考量，您有聽懂本席所表達的？"],["劉部長世芳：我懂。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這些未來可能都是，今天因為主席排了這個案，我們大家必須來正視，所以很多縣市……還有彰化縣，彰化縣在臺中升格之後，其實整個彰化縣的人口也有磁吸效應，也這樣離開。所以我們在考慮整個包括從民國八十幾年行政區劃法草案到現在，本來只有1個直轄市現在變6個，可是行政區劃法草案還躺在那裡，直轄市升格之後，對旁邊縣市所造成的影響及效益，這些我們都希望中央能夠重視，現在既然要開啟，本席認為是不是要不斷地溝通，您一直說沒有共識，沒有共識更要不斷地溝通、討論，更加努力地來凝聚共識，如果能夠達成而且對臺灣各縣市不管是生活、區域治理等各方面能夠更好，我們希望內政部長這邊也許跟院長反映、跟總統反映，我們應該積極來做，剛剛本席沒提到的就是北北基的大生活圈，甚至大臺北地區的交通等各方面，所以我們民眾不希望只有要放颱風假時才有區域治理的整合，我們希望生活上各方面也都能夠改善，今天就是反映民意，也希望部長……部長，你最後有沒有什麼要回應的？"],["劉部長世芳：委員非常關心、也非常了解狀況，您剛剛提到新竹縣市的合併升格，升格是最重要的，不是只有合併，但是就有人提到新竹縣市為什麼不跟苗栗一起？這是一個，還有一個，您剛剛提到中彰投，彰化跟南投要不要跟臺中一起？還有提到嘉義縣市合併升格，但是旁邊的雲林跟其他縣市會不會就有不同的意見？就是說這個是我們在考量當中，跟區域治理或者是跟預算的分配其實這很重要。還有您提到有鄰避效應，焚化爐或者是殯葬設施通常大家都不希望劃到自己的選區裡面，這個就是我們所碰到最大的困擾，所以為什麼到現在為止，有一些比較小的縣市，他們因為鄰避效應所以連應該要有的焚化爐都沒有，以我們在高雄的例子來講，遠從中部到東部，我們都有代收、幫忙處理環境的廢棄物，那其實是非常大的困擾，甚至跨離島都有，為什麼？就是因為區域治理而產生不同的困擾，所以也提供給委員做參考，那我們當然會來努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些我知道，當然這要看每個行政首長要怎麼來做、要怎麼樣去突破，這個都有關。你既然講到新竹縣市，我就想講一下，當初新竹縣市的升格最後為什麼會失敗而且被社會指責，就是因為當時只是一黨之私、因人設事，造成了一些問題，所以我們希望行政區劃要公開透明，而且要長期規劃。本席最後要強調，人民的利益、公眾的利益是唯一考量，而且是最重要的考量，部長，我們接下來如果中央要來推動，也不要因為有很多困難所以都不溝通、不凝聚共識、不去討論，我們希望還是要進步，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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所以我的意思是說我們在優先名單裡面那是在哪一個的優先名單裡面因為美國針對這個部分它等於是有不同的管道嘛您剛剛也談到了所以我要問的事情是我們當初像民眾說我們在第一批跟以色列一起而且我們做過視訊會議了相談甚歡這個部分我們所接頭的是哪一個單位"},{"start":119.451,"end":139.879,"text":"美國川普政府他們基於他們的主管跟分工那都已經對接了所以不是USTRUSTR是最重要的因為到談判的階段具體的項目一定是USTR他們是跨部會的如果您所說的是我們跟川普政府已經接頭了那就是指的是美國財長囉"},{"start":141.82,"end":145.563,"text":"他們當然會協調我想不只是說財長或者是商務部或者是國務院我想美國政府也是一體的嘛那既然是說那組團因為台美之間長期就是透過我們的OTN跟他的USTR對接對因為這裡面有很多技術所以這個我們當時說跟以色列的第一批是由USTR這裡主導的嗎"},{"start":164.76,"end":173.887,"text":"是因為我們就覺得很奇怪我們大家都以為我們在第一批的談判裡面可是美國財長這邊說的所謂的優先名單五個國家裡面卻沒有談到我們我們可以看到談判時程跟各國的立場其實是日本、韓國、英國、澳洲跟印度他們都已經目標在六週之內或者說最近來跟美國財長這邊來溝通我想要問的是這兩個有什麼差別"},{"start":193.743,"end":198.409,"text":"就是我們當時所說的我們在第一批而且已經視訊而且已經談得很好那跟現在所說的美國首批貿易談判對象的五國六國裡面沒有台灣差異在哪裡可不可以幫我們說明一下"},{"start":210.66,"end":234.893,"text":"因為他列舉這五國並沒有排斥其他國家就像台灣或以色列對但是他是首批嘛我們已經放榜了嘛所以不是現在才上榜我們現在上榜是指上榜啊我們就有在談啊所以說現在進行是所以首批貿易對談判對象在日本、韓國、英國、澳洲、印度他們其實不是首批我們其實比他們還要更前面他說等五國五國等啦不只這五國啊"},{"start":237.654,"end":262.292,"text":"所以我們也包含在這裡面只是他沒有寫出來優先名單也在第一批我們也在第一批所以應該是日本韓國英國澳洲印度加台灣以及其他國家是這樣說嗎對所以你的意思是說美國財長說我們首批貿易談判對象漏掉了台灣沒有漏掉他們已經宣布了就是台灣就是在談"},{"start":262.912,"end":270.962,"text":"沒有啊因為財長所說的東西跟美國USDR所說的內容跟現在上面也沒有以色列啊上面也沒有談嘛因為談判喔他不會是由財長單獨去談嘛他是美國川普政府他盡力分工主管然後看哪一個國家算怎麼樣"},{"start":278.991,"end":294.977,"text":"這個非常有趣就是說在川普任內的體制跟過去有點不一樣很多事情是美國財長他說了算真正跟美國財長有溝通到的像美國財長他每天都有很多川普相關的發言才是最近身到川普身邊能夠去做談判的"},{"start":296.758,"end":317.03,"text":"如果我們走的都是USTR這個路線說我們在USTR裡面排的是首位並不等同於在我們美國財長這邊也就是他真正正式的談判裡面排的是首位那我們應該要怎麼樣讓兩者之間能夠結合在一起呢各位媒體這是第一批的名單就是有台灣那因為這次談除了USTR談的我們一般的所謂的這個貿易涉及的跟關稅有關其實"},{"start":324.554,"end":336.568,"text":"除了對等關稅以外也有那個擴充貿易法案裡面的232條那也有其他的跟投資是啦但是我們現在談的我現在談的就只有在川普的關稅戰的這個部分而已其他的部分我們先不談我們先談關稅戰因為國人最關心的是關稅戰嘛"},{"start":346.038,"end":357.861,"text":"那我們可以看到日本韓國英國澳洲跟印度他們基本上都是很多人他們都比如說已經排定比如說像是當時韓國是下周嘛然後呢這個英國的話是兩國官員已經數週會談那我們看日本日本是他們有這個"},{"start":369.324,"end":373.447,"text":"經濟再生擔當大臣赤澤亮16號到18號訪美那我想問一下我們目前在川普的這個關稅案的談判是政務委員鄭麗君那請問副院長副院長對不起那請問他什麼時候會赴美談判"},{"start":388.746,"end":414.926,"text":"都已經有在洽談談判的時間地點跟方式我只能講說這是同步平行在進行中那我們以台灣跟日本來比較好了這個是在4月17號的時候我們可以看到美國總統川普他祭出對等關稅日本經濟再生大臣赤澤亮到美國去談判他就想說用川普自己的個人賬號寫說有重大的進展"},{"start":417.648,"end":432.364,"text":"也就是日本派出了他們相對應的官員到美國進行談判那我要請問外交部的就是我們台灣接下來會有官員赴美與川普進行談判嗎?"},{"start":434.089,"end":452.685,"text":"也會也會所以會像這個畫面長的這樣子我不知道川普因為他是中間跑進來的你說誰是中間跑進來的我沒辦法決定因為他的這個風格很特別但是我們的規劃目標是像日本這樣子的型態嗎還是我們有其他的目標型態"},{"start":453.385,"end":467.096,"text":"現在跟委員報告我們不管是總統講的台美經貿這個深化的路徑圖或者是我們先前透過視訊雙方面進行已經彙整聚焦的項目都在進行中進行中那請問在什麼時候時間點上面因為談判涉及到雙方面啦當然當然我們知道"},{"start":473.901,"end":491.108,"text":"機密性我今天也沒有問你們談我們今天也沒有問說你們談的是什麼項目這個交給你們自己去處理但是我想要問的是既然您剛剛已經講到了有這麼多的談判項目都已經有非常重大的進展那最後兩個問題一個是我們會不會赴美"},{"start":494.509,"end":505.856,"text":"談判就是公開赴美談判第二個事情是公開赴美談判之後那什麼時候會對國人宣布我們最後的談判結果兩個問題我們都有這樣的準備赴美談判那因為有90天那策略上的怎麼樣去進行因為包括那個美日談判對我們來講也是很重要的參考我們怎麼樣有更多的資訊去對我們最有利的談判"},{"start":523.027,"end":541.902,"text":"那我們要了解美方他現在有一些安排那我們也做好準備所以你剛講的就是說我們會依照這樣的一個我們跟美方談好的節奏來進行目前都是溝通順暢也都按照雙方面的所以我們在90天以內就是說從他宣佈關稅的90天以內會向國人公佈我們所兩邊會談的最終結果嗎"},{"start":549.448,"end":565.194,"text":"一定要公佈我們希望越早但是在第一批裡面其他國家在談我們也要謹慎的很注意去了解所以我們非常確定我們在90天以內儘管它有可能再往後延長的話我們也是鎖定在90天內是嗎對我們當然是以這樣做準備謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時57分）謝謝主席，請林佳龍部長。部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想現在大家最關心的都是川普的關稅戰，雖然延了90天，可是這代表我們爭取這90天的時間，每一分、每一秒都是非常珍貴的。我想要先問一下，我們目前談判的窗口是美國貿易代表署（USTR），還是美國的財長？"],["林部長佳龍：USTR。"],["徐委員巧芯：USTR，對不對？大家都很擔心的是，因為川普政權的特殊性，跟過去美國拜登時期是不太一樣的，我們針對USTR來溝通的話，對於美國財長這邊，我們有沒有什麼方式能夠比較快地接近他們？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有多元的管道，除了美國貿易代表署以外，在其他方面，我們透過各個管道也都在傳達訊息。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們現在是用USTR作為我們的……"],["林部長佳龍：因為要進入項目的談判，USTR是主管機關。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以我問一個問題，先前傳出我們是在第一批名單的時候，指的是在USTR的第一批名單；先前有說我們有視訊會議，談得非常順暢，也是指在美國貿易代表署（USTR）這個部分嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：USTR都有在裡面，因為它是最主要的主管機關。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以我的意思是，我們在優先名單裡面是在哪一個的優先名單裡面？因為美國針對這個部分等於是有不同的管道，您剛剛也談到了……"],["林部長佳龍：他們也有整合。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我要問的事情是，我們當初向民眾說我們在第一批，跟以色列一起，而且我們做過視訊會議了，相談甚歡，這個部分我們所接頭的是哪一個單位？"],["林部長佳龍：美國川普政府基於他們的主管跟分工，跟我們政府都已經對接了。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以不是USTR？"],["林部長佳龍：USTR是最重要的，因為在談判的階段，具體的項目一定是USTR，可是他們是跨部會的。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果您所說的是我們跟川普政府已經接頭了，那就是指的是美國財長囉？"],["林部長佳龍：他們當然會協調，我想不只是財長、商務部或者是國務院，我想美國政府也是一體的，現在主談的部分，因為臺美之間長期就是透過我們的OTN跟它的USTR對接。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["林部長佳龍：因為這裡面有很多技術性的問題要處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們當時說跟以色列成為第一批，是由USTR這裡主導的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我們覺得很奇怪，大家都以為我們在第一批的談判裡面，可是美國財長所說的優先名單5個國家裡面卻沒有談到我們。我們可以看到談判時程和各國立場，其實日本、韓國、英國、澳洲和印度都已經說，目標在六週之內或最近跟美國財長溝通。我想要問的是這兩個有什麼差別。我們當時所說的，我們在第一批，而且已經視訊、談得很好，跟現在美國首批貿易談判對象的5國、6國裡面沒有臺灣，差異在哪裡，可不可以幫我們說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：它列舉這5國並沒有排斥其他國家，就像臺灣或以色列。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，但它是首批嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經放榜了，不是現在才上榜。"],["徐委員巧芯：放榜是指什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就有在談了，已經在進行中，現在進行式。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。所以首批貿易談判對象，日本、韓國、英國、澳洲、印度其實不是首批，我們比他們還要更前面？"],["林部長佳龍：他是說國等，不只這5國。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們也包含在這裡面，只是他沒有寫出來？"],["林部長佳龍：我們也在優先名單，也在第一批談判的對象。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們也在第一批，所以應該是日本、韓國、英國、澳洲、印度加臺灣以及其他國家，是這樣說嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你的意思是，美國財長說首批貿易談判對象漏掉了臺灣？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有漏掉，他們已經宣布了，臺灣就是在談了。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，財長所說的東西和美國USTR所說的內容，現在上面也沒有以色列、上面也沒有臺灣。"],["林部長佳龍：談判不會是由財長單獨去談，一定是美國川普政府基於分工、主管……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個有趣了……"],["林部長佳龍：然後跟每一個國家要怎麼來談……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個非常有趣，川普任內的體制跟過去有點不一樣，很多事情是美國財長說了算，真正跟美國財長有溝通到的，像美國財長每天都有很多川普相關的發言，才是最晉升到川普身邊能夠去談判的。如果我們走的都是USTR這個路線，說我們在USTR裡面排的是首位，並不等同於在美國財長這邊，也就是在他真正正式的談判裡面排的是首位。我們應該要怎麼樣讓兩者之間能夠結合在一起呢？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，第一批名單就是有臺灣，因為這次談的，除了USTR談的一般所謂貿易涉及跟關稅有關，其實除了對等關稅以外，也有擴充貿易法案裡面的232條款，也有其他跟投資相關的……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們現在談的……"],["林部長佳龍：涉及跨部會。"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在談的就只有川普關稅戰的這個部分而已，其他的部分我們先不談，我們先談關稅戰，因為國人最關心的是關稅戰，我們可以看到日本、韓國、英國、澳洲和印度基本上都已經排定，比如，韓國是下週，英國是兩國官員已經數週會談。我們看日本，日本經濟再生擔當大臣赤澤亮正16日至18日訪美。我想問一下，我們目前川普關稅案的談判代表是政務委員鄭麗君，請問……"],["林部長佳龍：不是，是副院長。"],["徐委員巧芯：對不起！請問他什麼時候會赴美談判？"],["林部長佳龍：都已經有在洽談談判的時間、地點和方式，我只能講這是同步平行在進行中。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們以臺灣跟日本來比較好了，4月17日我們可以看到美國總統川普祭出對等關稅，日本經濟再生大臣赤澤亮正到美國談判，川普在自己的個人帳號說有重大進展，也就是日本派出了他們相對應的官員到美國進行談判。我要請問外交部的是，我們臺灣接下來會有官員赴美與川普進行談判嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：也會。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以會像這個畫面長這樣子？"],["林部長佳龍：我不知道，因為川普是中間跑進來的。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說誰是中間跑進來的？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒辦法決定，因為他的風格很特別。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們的規劃目標是像日本這樣子的型態嗎？還是我們有其他的目標型態？"],["林部長佳龍：先跟委員報告，不管是總統講的臺美經貿深化的路徑圖，或者是我們先前透過視訊雙方面進行已經彙整聚焦的項目，都在進行中。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問在什麼時間點上面可能會公布給大眾？"],["林部長佳龍：因為談判涉及雙方面的機密性……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，我知道。"],["林部長佳龍：我們也希望不受干擾，能夠順利地進行。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們今天也沒有問你們談的是什麼項目，這個交給你們自己去處理，但是我想要問的是，既然你剛剛已經講到有這麼多的談判項目，都已經有非常重大的進展，最後兩個問題，一個是我們會不會赴美談判，就是公開赴美談判？第二個事情是公開赴美談判之後，什麼時候會對國人宣布我們最後的談判結果？兩個問題。"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有赴美談判這樣的準備，因為有90天，策略上怎麼樣去進行，包括美日談判對我們來講也是很重要的參考，我們怎麼樣有更多的資訊，去進行對我們最有利的談判，我們也要瞭解美方現在有一些安排，我們也做好準備，所以你剛剛講的，我們會依照跟美方談好的節奏來進行，目前都是溝通順暢，也都按照雙方面的準備在進行中。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們在90天以內，從他宣布關稅的90天以內，會向國人公布我們兩邊會談的最終結果嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：一定要公布，我們當然希望越早越好。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為他有可能會再延期。"],["林部長佳龍：在第一批裡面其他國家在談，我們也要謹慎地很注意去瞭解，作為參考。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們非常確定我們在90天以內，儘管他有可能再往後延長，我們也是鎖定在90天內，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們當然是以這樣做準備。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK！謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。","現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘後繼續詢答。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時12分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來由黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c881962791b48811f9f4553849aeee05e40fed3d90e8b9dd2efa5ec6075ae9718d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:43:59 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麻煩請部長部長早委員早"},{"start":17.523,"end":33.586,"text":"外交部其實在很多的互動上面應該主動一點應該是比較好啦過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣部長剛剛有委員提到就是我們預算凍結的部分我們現在如果要提出解凍最大的困難在哪裡"},{"start":35.894,"end":54.001,"text":"我想因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議最大的困難告訴我們最大的困難因為過去每年都有解凍的程序部長您也擔任過立法委員現在跟過去如果有不同現在最大的困難在哪裡如果現在要提出解凍的話"},{"start":54.801,"end":82.309,"text":"就是有一些規定比如說業務要執行三成啊然後這個因為洞協一半然後因為立法院會期也可能五月底那這個時間的壓縮在五月底之前像現在都可以提出來過去其實就三成的那個規定我們有一些業務是還不符合可以提出解凍的標準三成的規定到現在我們一年12個月現在已經快要五月了如果再一個月大概就六個月就半年了"},{"start":83.189,"end":111.874,"text":"我們到現在如果連30%都還執行不了第一可能我們的執行力有問題第二我們的預算幅編太多所以它足以硬硬所以你到現在連30%都還沒用到因為它的標準就很簡單它就是30%你就可以提出解凍如果這樣都還做不到我能想到的大概就這兩個理由因為你還沒送出來因為有些國際合作案你一簽下去之後"},{"start":113.154,"end":127.775,"text":"她沒有辦法分階段來執行Yes No 那個就是1跟0的問題我想您很清楚我說您擔任過立法委員所謂的30%一定是你一般的常態業務如果你提出來如果這個被"},{"start":128.716,"end":145.558,"text":"在野黨或者甚至執政黨有意見的話立法院有意見的話其實都可以再做說明可是連提都還沒有提這三十八答不到我就剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的你在國際合作國際合作你也可以進行到百分之三十啊不管你是哪一部分"},{"start":147,"end":153.663,"text":"所謂的不確定性是你在執行完成以後才會有不確定性可是你在計劃的當下當你在要這個預算的時候你沒有告訴我們立法院說這個有不確定性我們甚至可以不要編是這樣嗎如果30%都還沒有達到我們現在已經過了快要已經五月了這個部分請我們外交部自己本身去做完檢討以後為什麼不能夠提出來如果30%都還辦不到那是執行不利"},{"start":176.733,"end":180.158,"text":"這是要跟外交部提醒的不要把它再推到在野黨上面那另外今天部長也有提到我們現在根據外交部的消息南非政府已經在要求"},{"start":191.995,"end":199.16,"text":"台灣駐南非的代表處在三月底之前要遷離首都並且將住處甚至降級而且更名這個部分我們直接被台北我們本來是台北聯絡代表處現在直接被改名成為台北商務辦事處這個部分部長在說明的時候有提到說我們目前還是運作正常我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常"},{"start":220.174,"end":235.18,"text":"因為我們甚至在被降級的部分他本來是準大使的這樣的一個地位那你現在變成這樣子我們對等措施是什麼我們也看不到"},{"start":236.96,"end":262.803,"text":"因為除了牽管或降級或涉及到一些名稱我們都一一有在就是說除了我們拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外也在協商中那你剛剛委員講的其實他雖然有那樣子說但實質上我們目前還是按照原來來運作除了沒有牽管以外就是有一些"},{"start":263.784,"end":278.424,"text":"外交上面的互動並不是如他們自己先前有些宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情那這代表有空間所以有空間我們據理力爭也希望說能夠讓他知道利弊得失啦"},{"start":278.905,"end":283.208,"text":"他國內外現在的壓力也很大那他也應該會開始去考慮啊如果單方的行為可能會引致的後果部長我們現在已經被直接改名了他要求我們簽我們還沒簽沒有錯可是我們已經被改名那你從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處我說其實他在等級上面已經差了一大截準大使變成我們一個只是一個貿易的一個代表處那另外"},{"start":306.442,"end":313.725,"text":"目前實質上還是維持原來的關係那我們以前什麼名稱都不重要為什麼我們在國際上面會想要那種所以如果我們要讓全體人民有共識你應該很清楚的讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的然後是我們要持續的力爭而不是告訴我們運作正常可是我們看到的它是不正常"},{"start":333.672,"end":335.933,"text":"因為他直接把我們歸類我們現在已經四五月了他已經把我們改掉了嘛你一點辦法都沒有我們說要對等的措施也看不到他直接把我們降級以外而且他把我們歸類成國際組織"},{"start":351.36,"end":353.583,"text":"他把我們歸類成國際組織我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有可是我們被改變了那這個部分我想要請教的是因為就這個問題的延伸我們目前還看不到不過我們請"},{"start":368.98,"end":384.512,"text":"外交部可以提供相關的書面資料我們要怎麼樣去因應因為我們看到的部長剛剛也提到說像南非的住管是我們的資產那我們過去有許多的前例都是管處直接就被沒收而且還移交給中國"},{"start":386.433,"end":402.665,"text":"使用我們看到很多的案例像巴拿馬那時候我們在住巴拿馬的那個使館我們大概有2200萬美元這已經大概台幣7億多了可是在當時直接就移交給中國"},{"start":403.906,"end":420.561,"text":"那另外還有多米尼加斷交的時候我們的很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產像薩爾瓦多我們赤字3000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管然後做其他的公共用途還有非洲的案例有聖多美"},{"start":427.588,"end":441.835,"text":"普林西比這個也是我們有很多的國會大廈啊或者他們原住的總統府等等其實那時候大概也都被他們要求我們台方人員都必須要撤離管社還有布吉納法所還有像"},{"start":443.235,"end":455.104,"text":"所羅門群島還有吉里巴斯等等我念到的這些其實我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭一定會爭取可是我們從頭到現在看起來只要被拿走的我們就拿不回來了而且好像也沒有發生的機會"},{"start":461.289,"end":474.82,"text":"也沒有特別的管道那像南非這個也是因為他已經逐步逐步從去年十月到現在又說三月那現在沒有明確的日期可是他已經直接就這樣做了對我們都是在國格上面一個很大的損害而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響甚至我們未來像這樣的一個管產或者像我們台商的這些利益他怎麼辦管產的部分部長您怎麼看"},{"start":490.168,"end":505.237,"text":"因為他並沒有辦法就是如期的迫使我們簽管現在我們還在使用中那我們也會具體力爭那會窮盡一些方法那他也感受到壓力來自於內外的所以這個時候有空間我們繼續協商我們要捍衛我們的館產"},{"start":508.579,"end":530.349,"text":"因為我們也找了律師做了研究他們也找了有律師跟這個有關的所以我想這個大家研究完就會知道就是財產的所屬第一個財產的所屬我剛剛念了一堆所有的國家其實只要跟我們斷交以後他幾乎我們都拿不回來所以我們在還可以因應的時候你要怎麼樣確保這是一個方向因為另外一個"},{"start":535.091,"end":537.834,"text":"部分就是紐時的報導就是說川普他原理要簽行政命令要大幅改組國務院而且要砍非洲行動跟關閉當地大使館還有領事館"},{"start":550.606,"end":554.13,"text":"那我們在這個部分因為我們說對於南非的談判我們是找美國日本甚至還有G7的國家幫我們發聲然後幫我們說話可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方甚至有點是驕傲因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展"},{"start":572.068,"end":587.233,"text":"可是像這樣子的一個狀況美國現在突然有這樣子的一個做法這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎剛剛部長說我們所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎有 因為當然美國的政府"},{"start":587.853,"end":612.51,"text":"因為國務卿Rubio也剛剛有表示並沒有說先前傳的那樣但是就算是有什麼樣變化我們台灣在非洲的外交關係就是我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交然後我們另外有五個代表處持續會發展那再來就是跟南非他自己現在面對到的就是美國把他的駐美大使趕走"},{"start":613.751,"end":630.002,"text":"驅除出境 列為不受歡迎人物阿哥啊 就是說非洲這個所謂成長的機會法案是關係著包括南非所以他們為南非內部有很多的討論要不要屈從中國因為南非嘗到他的外交自主嘛還是說應該跟台灣之間的關係應該要修好"},{"start":635.546,"end":639.147,"text":"對因為你剛剛提的是美國我說美國現在有一個這樣的做法那美國會怎麼做那是美國一個大國他有辦法去跟南非或者整個歐洲抗衡我們現在沒有辦法我們自己的邦交國我們自己鞏固沒有錯可是像南非我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題我們不要再多做掩飾如果萬一因為"},{"start":657.895,"end":659.956,"text":"原來還有美國可以幫我們講話或者其他的你說G7就是歐洲啦其他的國家可以幫我們講話現在顯然美國都已經跟他交惡的情況之下我們要怎麼樣自保這個外交部要先想清楚而且你的沙盤推演裡面這個應該要列入重點項目因為我們已經沒有靠山了"},{"start":678.786,"end":680.708,"text":"所以這樣有可能我們很多的資產還有我們台商還有我們原來在那裡多年所做的努力其實都有可能會化為烏有這個部分外交部是應該要提前應應的你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分好不好"},{"start":693.817,"end":702.307,"text":"好我會都親自主持那另外因為剛剛有提到震災的部分不好意思主席再跟您接一點點時間震災的捐款剛剛部長也提到任何的捐款都應該要嚴格的監督因為這個都是大家"},{"start":712.097,"end":716.16,"text":"捐出來而且都是救命錢所以非常的重要所以在這裡對於緬甸政災的捐款或者每一筆他一分一毫其實都牽涉到大家的愛心那過去我們在對於烏克蘭的一個提供的一些資助還有包括我們之前也提過在"},{"start":735.803,"end":741.288,"text":"立法院也提到的就是有國內成立的商會民間自己成立的商會他們公開募款說要捐給敘利亞的這個善款還有之前我們用透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的這幾個部分我們請外交部提供現在進行的一個狀況不管你的查核或者我們後續的執行的結果"},{"start":758.021,"end":761.825,"text":"比如說我們透過捷克的NGO的組織然後捐給烏克蘭的這個部分因為已經大概過快一年了吧這個進度到底怎麼樣執行的成果到底怎麼樣到底送了哪些物資也希望我們用一樣的嚴格的監督的態度來面對它好不好請提供資料書面資料謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":302,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時43分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：外交部在很多的互動上面應該主動一點會比較好，過去跟現在好像有一點點不一樣，剛剛有委員提到預算凍結的部分，現在如果要提出解凍，最大的困難在哪裡？"],["林部長佳龍：因為涉及到大院通過的一些決議……"],["馬委員文君：最大的困難在哪裡？請告訴我們最大的困難。因為過去每年都有解凍的程序，部長，您也擔任過立法委員，現在跟過去如果有不同，請問現在最大的困難在哪裡？如果現在要提出解凍的話。"],["林部長佳龍：就是有一些規定，比如說業務要執行三成，然後因為凍結一半，而立法院會期可能到5月底就結束，時間的壓縮……"],["馬委員文君：為什麼不在5月底之前，像現在都可以提出來啊！過去也都是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：因為就三成的規定，我們有一些業務還不符合可以提出解凍的標準。"],["馬委員文君：關於三成的規定，一年12個月，現在已經快要5月了，再一個月就6個月，大概就半年了，如果到現在連30%都還執行不了，第一，可能執行力有問題；第二就是預算浮編太多，所以足以因應，也因此你到現在連30%都還沒用到。其實它的標準很簡單，只要執行30%就可以提出解凍，如果這樣都還做不到，我能想到的大概就這兩個理由，因為你還沒送出來，你也不知道……"],["林部長佳龍：因為有些國際合作案一簽下去之後，它沒有辦法分階段來執行，只有Yes或No，那就是1跟0的問題。"],["馬委員文君：我所謂的30%絕對不會是這個部分。部長，我想您很清楚，因為您也曾擔任過立法委員，所謂的30%一定是針對一般的常態業務，如果你提出來，而立法院的在野黨或執政黨有意見的話，其實都可以再作說明，可是現在連提都還沒有提，這30%達不到，我剛剛提到的那兩個理由是最明確的。你剛才說到國際合作，國際合作也可以進行到30%啊！不管你是哪一部分……"],["林部長佳龍：後面的不確定性……"],["馬委員文君：所謂的不確定性，是在執行完成以後才會有不確定性。可是在計畫的當下，當你在要這筆預算的時候，你並沒有告訴立法院說這個有不確定性，我們甚至可以不要編，是這樣嗎？如果30%都還沒有達到，而現在都已經快要5月了，這個部分請外交部自己去檢討，為什麼不能夠提出來？如果30%都還辦不到，那是執行不力。這一點是本席要跟外交部提醒的，不要再把它推到在野黨上面。","另外，今天部長也有提到根據外交部的消息，南非政府已經再度要求臺灣駐南非代表處在3月底之前要遷離首都，並且將駐處降級，而且更名，我們本來是臺北聯絡代表處，現在直接被改名成為臺北商務辦事處。針對這個部分，部長在說明的時候有提到目前還是運作正常，我不知道這個部分要怎麼運作正常？在被降級的部分，它本來是準大使館的地位，現在變成這樣子，我們的對等措施是什麼也看不到。"],["林部長佳龍：關於遷館、降級或涉及到一些名稱，我們都一一在處理，除了拒絕這些違反雙邊協議的行為之外，也在協商中……"],["馬委員文君：可是它已經做了。"],["林部長佳龍：以剛剛委員講的，它雖然有那樣子說，但實質上我們目前還是按照原來的方式在運作，除了沒有遷館以外，其實有一些外交上面的互動，並不是如他們自己先前所宣稱的時間或有一些要做的事情，這就代表有空間，有空間我們就據理力爭，也希望能夠讓它知道利弊得失，它國內外現在的壓力也很大，它也應該會開始去考慮單方的行為可能會引致的後果。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們現在已經被直接改名了，它要求我們遷，我們還沒遷沒有錯，可是我們已經被改名，從臺北聯絡代表處變成商務代表處，其實在等級上面已經差了一大截，從準大使館變成只是一個貿易代表處。另外，我們甚至被它……"],["林部長佳龍：目前實質上還是維持原來的關係。"],["馬委員文君：如果以前什麼名稱不重要，為什麼我們在國際上面會想要……"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然持續在抗議、協商。"],["馬委員文君：如果要讓全體人民有共識，你應該很清楚地讓大家知道南非對我們是不公平的，我們要持續的力爭，而不是告訴我們運作正常，可是我們看到的是不正常，因為它直接把我們歸類……"],["林部長佳龍：3月底的底線現在也無限期延長了……"],["馬委員文君：現在已經快要5月了，他已經把我們的名稱改掉了嘛！你一點辦法都沒有，我們說要對等的措施也看不到，除了直接把我們降級以外，而且它把我們歸類成國際組織，我們也看不到我們的對等措施是什麼，因為在國內他們一點改變都沒有，可是我們被改變了。針對這個部分我想要請教的是，就這個問題的延伸目前還看不到，不過請外交部可以提供相關的書面資料，說明我們要怎麼樣去因應。","剛才部長也提到像南非的駐館是我們的資產，過去有許多前例都是館處直接就被沒收，而且還移交給中國使用。我們看到很多的案例，像巴拿馬，那時候我們駐巴拿馬的使館大概價值2,200萬美元、臺幣七億多，可是當時就直接移交給中國；另外還有多明尼加，斷交的時候，我們很多的房產也是被歸類為中國財產；像薩爾瓦多，我們斥資3,000萬美金所興建的中薩文化經貿中心就直接被薩國政府接管，做其他的公共用途；非洲的案例有聖多美普林西比，我們有很多的國會大廈或原住的總統府等等，那時候也都被他們要求臺方人員都必須要撤離館舍；還有布吉納法索、索羅門群島、吉里巴斯等等。以上我唸到的這些，我們每次都告訴國人或者在立法院說我們一定會據理力爭、一定會爭取，可是從以前到現在，看起來只要被拿走的，我們就拿不回來了，而且好像也沒有發聲的機會，也沒有特別的管道。","像南非也是，因為它已經逐步、逐步地，從去年10月到現在又說3月，現在沒有明確的日期，可是它已經直接就這樣做了，對我們的國格上面都是很大的損害，而且對我們的權益也造成很大的影響，甚至我們未來像這樣的館產或者臺商的利益要怎麼辦？館產的部分，部長，你怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：因為它並沒有辦法如期地迫使我們遷館，現在我們還在使用中，我們也會據理力爭、窮盡一切方法，它也感受到來自於內、外的壓力，所以這個時候有空間，我們繼續協商。我們一定捍衛我們的館產，我們也找了律師、做了研究，他們也找了律師跟有關的……所以我想大家研究完就會知道財產的所屬。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們務實地面對，第一個，有關財產的所屬，我剛剛唸了一堆的國家，其實只要跟我們斷交以後，我們幾乎都拿不回來，所以我們在還可以因應的時候要怎麼樣確保，這是一個方向。另外一個部分就是紐時報導川普研擬要簽行政命令，大幅改組國務院，而且要砍非洲行動，並關閉當地大使館及領事館。對於南非的談判，我們說是找美國、日本、甚至G7的國家幫我們發聲、幫我們說話，可是看起來美國已經要放棄這個地方，甚至有點交惡，因為中國已經把所有的勢力都往非洲在推展。像這樣子的狀況，美國現在突然有這樣的做法，這個有在我們的沙盤推演裡面嗎？剛剛部長說所有的狀況你都有做沙盤推演，這個部分有做沙盤推演嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有。當然，美國政府的國務卿Rubio有表示並沒有先前傳的那樣，但是就算是有什麼樣的變化，我們臺灣在非洲的外交關係，比如我們跟史瓦帝尼要鞏固邦交，我們另外有5個代表處持續會發展，再來就是跟南非。南非現在面對到的就是美國把它的駐美大使趕走、驅逐出境、列為不受歡迎人物，然後AGOA（非洲成長與機會法案）是關係著南非，所以南非內部有很多的討論，包括要不要屈從中國，因為南非強調外交自主，還是跟臺灣之間的關係應該要修好。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你剛剛提的是美國，我說美國現在有這樣的做法，美國會怎麼做？美國是一個大國，有辦法跟南非或整個歐洲抗衡，我們現在沒有辦法，我們自己的邦交國自己鞏固沒有錯，可是像南非，我們現在已經面臨到這樣的問題，我們不要再多作掩飾，因為原來還有美國可以幫我們講話，或者其他的G7、歐洲等等國家可以幫我們講話，現在顯然美國都已經跟它交惡的情況之下，我們要怎麼樣自保？外交部要先想清楚。而且在你的沙盤推演裡面，這個應該要列入重點項目，因為我們已經沒有靠山了，我們有很多的資產、臺商、原來在那裡多年來所做的努力，其實都有可能會化為烏有，就這個部分外交部應該要提前因應，你的沙盤推演也應該要做這個部分，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我會都親自主持這些沙盤推演。"],["馬委員文君：好。另外，剛剛也有提到賑災的部分。不好意思，主席，再跟您借一點點時間。關於賑災的捐款，剛剛部長也提到，任何捐款都應該要嚴格地監督，因為這些都是大家捐出來的，而且都是救命錢，所以非常地重要。緬甸賑災捐款的每一筆、一分一毫都牽涉到大家的愛心，包括過去我們對於烏克蘭提供的資助，還有我們立法院之前也提到，國內民間自己成立的商會公開募款要捐給敘利亞的善款，以及之前我們透過公務預算捐給烏克蘭的部分，請外交部提供現在進行的狀況，不管是你們的查核或者後續執行的結果，比如我們透過捷克NGO的組織捐給烏克蘭的部分，現在過了大概快一年了，這個進度到底怎麼樣？執行的成果到底怎麼樣？到底送了哪些物資？也希望我們用一樣嚴格監督的態度來面對，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：請提供書面資料，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員上臺質詢。","接下來由徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":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這請假對 他會請假 那現在是我這邊跟那個議事人員這邊都沒有收到請假好 OK 好 所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩議事人員尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過 這第一個好 那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長 謝謝麻煩局長 部長"},{"start":196.67,"end":219.637,"text":"好,我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到這些關於這些國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數,幾十件幾十件這樣包括這個國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦"},{"start":226.882,"end":242.7,"text":"這個都有好 那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有 這個都有也都有 好 OK 好"},{"start":243.513,"end":263.773,"text":"那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好"},{"start":264.502,"end":290.424,"text":"那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、在任、調任那如果說,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查"},{"start":291.563,"end":312.501,"text":"因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的"},{"start":313.527,"end":323.262,"text":"阿你想查你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口"},{"start":324.397,"end":343.158,"text":"所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以討論啦可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是"},{"start":343.678,"end":364.214,"text":"那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡"},{"start":368.53,"end":390.167,"text":"那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個植物是必須要被查核可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜"},{"start":393.129,"end":415.837,"text":"南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員"},{"start":420.769,"end":440.219,"text":"假設這個部長就住在這個官社,我沒有說法和部長,因為我不知道住哪裡啦假設某部長啊,他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊嘛那這個部長每天回來的時間啊,這個清潔人員啊、什麼人員、什麼人員門口什麼的他就每天記錄啊,欸這個"},{"start":443.462,"end":450.914,"text":"我就簡單舉這種例子 社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去 怎麼有人寄 怎麼一人付一支 寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭 這個該不該被討論啊"},{"start":457.603,"end":477.323,"text":"我覺得這個是可以討論啦 但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候就社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太合理 說到最後大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說這一個一拉一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點 好不好 加速這一個討論"},{"start":479.545,"end":503.854,"text":"那這一個 我只能講說這個相關的 比如境外敵對勢力可能接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員 國會助理是其中一種對吧 國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證"},{"start":505.199,"end":530.419,"text":"他就進來了那有些是相關的職員有些都不是公務員那像這一條線我舉例子譬如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有一個信封然後裡面有一個加密的這個信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄相關的這一個文件現在問題來了"},{"start":533.121,"end":559.294,"text":"這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種"},{"start":560.202,"end":579.131,"text":"第二種我看完之後我就跟助理講說拿去碎掉那我的助理就看到了嘛第三種我也沒有講我就整包啊都拿去碎掉 都拿去回收欸 這個文就出去了國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範"},{"start":581.618,"end":598.37,"text":"我覺得像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡助理只要喵一下他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範"},{"start":600.287,"end":619.439,"text":"這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把它納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法"},{"start":622.621,"end":649.85,"text":"來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪"},{"start":650.45,"end":675.697,"text":"阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法"},{"start":676.957,"end":696.927,"text":"我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那這個你們的報告裡頭有提到財產"},{"start":702.628,"end":723.977,"text":"我們公務員有這個財產單位不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這一些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報"},{"start":725.185,"end":747.271,"text":"那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定"},{"start":749.251,"end":769.93,"text":"所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會 我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況 那個可能就進入司法調查 不是特殊查"},{"start":771.153,"end":777.979,"text":"我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策"},{"start":785.117,"end":809.528,"text":"引導 暗示 明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發"},{"start":810.268,"end":834.225,"text":"有告發或者中選會 現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案 來偵辦的這個沒有 不是我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是我們就是採客觀公正 毋安毋忠的一個辦案的態度這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊 手法啦 手法啦 這一些齁 這個都是"},{"start":835.045,"end":858.359,"text":"檢察官負責的這個檢察官他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個啊你給我布檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你給我布說這個有的沒的還是說"},{"start":860.58,"end":876.255,"text":"你就是檢察官 你的手法 你的手法 你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案 你掌握的訊息 怎麼樣怎麼樣 你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了對 這個是委員說的 就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那在這邊跟那個委員會還有"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時26分）我先擦一下，我剛剛看第一個在質詢，很恐怖！","我先會議詢問一下，主席，今天國安會沒來嘛？"],["主席：沒有。"],["王委員義川：國安會是什麼時候發公文到我們委員會？"],["主席：沒有，從來都沒有，他完全沒有……"],["王委員義川：都沒有？請教委員會的同仁、委員會的主秘是什麼時候收到國安會的公文？"],["主席：都沒有，他從頭到尾都沒有請假。"],["王委員義川：我可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文？"],["張主任秘書智為：跟委員報告，我們沒有收到公文。"],["王委員義川：你們沒有收到公文？到現在都沒收到公文？"],["張主任秘書智為：原則上，通常公文都會先送到召委辦公室那裡。"],["王委員義川：我說委員會什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知？"],["張主任秘書智為：我們沒有收到公文。"],["王委員義川：都沒有？到現在都沒有？確定？"],["張主任秘書智為：是。"],["王委員義川：OK。我再問一下，歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢的？"],["主席：王委員，我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點，因為2013年的時候，當時段宜康……"],["王委員義川：沒有，我是問國安會秘書長有沒有因為預算案跟法律案之外的會議來立法院備詢的？那個時候是為了譴責金溥聰，因為金溥聰不來，所以要譴責他！但我是問歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長在非法律案跟預算審查的時候出現在立法院備詢的？"],["主席：這可能還需要請議事人員查一下，我們先給議事人員時間，讓他們有時間去查一下。"],["王委員義川：OK。"],["主席：之前顧立雄擔任的時候，他是都會請假。"],["王委員義川：沒有來就請假對啊！"],["主席：對，他會請假，但現在是我這邊跟議事人員那邊都沒有收到請假通知。"],["王委員義川：OK，所以請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長在非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢的？"],["主席：好，這再麻煩議事人員處理。"],["王委員義川：尤其是金溥聰的任內有沒有來過？這是第一個。","那我就開始我的質詢。請調查局長跟法務部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩局長、部長。"],["王委員義川：我先請教部長，在你們的報告裡頭有提到關於國安案件每年大概都兩位數，幾十件、幾十件這樣，包括國安法跟反滲透法，請問這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦，還是相關單位的人發現可疑，請你們幫忙辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個都有。"],["王委員義川：好，最近比較熱門的那幾個案子，是單位自己提出來的，還是你們發現來辦的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：都有，這個都有。"],["王委員義川：也都有？OK。我再請問調查局局長，請問被安全查核的人知不知道他正在被查核？"],["陳局長白立：委員好。知道，必須要經過他的同意，因為有很多查核的項目是要他同意簽了名以後，我們才會去進行查核。"],["王委員義川：好，這一個特殊查核，剛剛你們的報告也提到，因為是初任或轉任。"],["陳局長白立：初任、再任、調任。"],["王委員義川：好，如果首長發現跟他相關的人，假設是他的司機，他覺得他的司機可能洩密，他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫忙查？"],["陳局長白立：因為不在這1,328個職務列表裡面，我們是沒有法源的依據來查。"],["王委員義川：好。部長，你來當部長有司機嘛！如果你認為你的司機怪怪的，你想查，你會怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為司機不是公務員，他只是一個僱員而已……"],["王委員義川：所以這會不會是破口？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們就要看立法，看有沒有把機要人員及司機全部都列入，這個是可以考慮的。"],["王委員義川：可以討論啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以討論。"],["王委員義川：第二個，調查局的報告裡頭有寫，你們現在是用職務嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：現在提到可不可以用揭密的條件跟接觸到資訊的內容，請問你們現在的想法，就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關機密內容的定義會設定在哪裡？就是說有摸到這些資訊、有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核，那一條線你們會劃在哪裡？"],["陳局長白立：那條線，其實應該要看他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密內容，我舉個例子來講，譬如說受查核的這個職務是必須要被查核的，可是他周邊的這些機要人員、會經手公文的這些人並沒有受到特殊查核……"],["王委員義川：沒錯！"],["陳局長白立：這個時候這個範圍就應該要囊括進來。"],["王委員義川：當然也不能無限上綱。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：所以這個事情我覺得要加速，也許是加速社會上的討論，說一個比較合理的。我舉個例子，譬如說行政院在信義路有一個信義官舍，信義官舍裡面總有清潔人員、整個環境維護的人員，假設部長就住在這個官舍，我沒有說是法務部長，因為我不知道你住哪裡。假設某部長可能也經常接觸這些國安資訊，然後部長每天回來的時間，清潔人員、什麼人員、什麼人員等等，他就每天紀錄，我就簡單舉這種例子，就是社會比較容易認知……"],["陳局長白立：我瞭解委員的意思。"],["王委員義川：就是說這個人都幾點回去，都有一個人負責記錄，記錄下來後不知道拿去給誰，在你們現在的思考裡頭，這個該不該被討論？"],["陳局長白立：我覺得這個是可以討論，但是這樣子的面向是不是太廣了？這個我們要思考。"],["王委員義川：所以我說在社會討論的時候，有的人覺得這樣太誇張，這樣討論到最後大家都要被查，這不合理！但是對於那一條線，我覺得速度要快一點，要加速討論。"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員義川：好。我只能講說相關的境外敵對勢力可能接觸的人員，國會助理是其中一種，對吧？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：但在立法院裡頭進進出出的不是只有國會助理，立法院進進出出非常多人，他只要換個證就進來了，有些是相關的職員，但都不是公務員。像這一條線，我舉個例子，比如我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件，密件就是外面有一個信封，裡面有一個加密的信封，然後有一個公文書，可能是相關的會議紀錄或文件。現在問題來了，這些拿來我們辦公室以後都沒有叫我們簽收，東西放著人就走了，當然對立委來說，我們就把它打開來看，看完之後就是關鍵了，看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了。因為他沒有叫我回收，給我之後他就走了，那一份我看完之後就把它碎掉了，這是一種。第二種是我看完之後就跟助理說：拿去碎掉！那我的助理就看到了。第三種是我沒有講，我可能就把整包或桌上一大堆都拿去碎掉、回收，這個文就洩漏出去了，國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範。假如我沒有自己碎，我的助理可能就會看到，比如我叫助理幫我拿去碎，助理只要瞄一下，他就會看到那個文件大概是什麼，可能是封面或者是第1頁之類的，國家該不該規範這個部分？"],["陳局長白立：針對這個部分，如果是立法院內的一般公務人員，目前可以透過行政院人總的特查辦法把他納進來；如果是立法委員的助理，因為他不是公務人員，所以這個部分應該要由立法院的組織法授權訂定子法作為執行的依據，規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員從事職務運行相關的助理是不是要納入查核，這個我們尊重立法院。"],["王委員義川：我請問一下，假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的，比如最近每次都請客吃飯，或最近買一臺新車，又或常常說他要出國，我可不可以說局長：你幫我查一下他？我可以做這個動作嗎？"],["陳局長白立：委員可以，可是我們不能做。"],["王委員義川：委員可以是什麼意思？"],["陳局長白立：委員可以主動提出來請我們查，但是我們沒有法源的依據，沒辦法配合委員。"],["王委員義川：所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理、B助理、C助理？"],["陳局長白立：但是我會回復委員，說我們沒有執法的依據，沒有辦法。"],["王委員義川：我可以提，但是你們不會做？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：OK。假設部長要提，然後希望你們查，他是一個公務員，然後部長提了，請你們查，當事人也知道他被查，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：如果是按照特查辦法，當事人必須要簽署，他同意，我們才會進行查核。"],["王委員義川：你們的報告裡頭又有提到財產，因為公務員有財產來源不明罪，公職人員要財產申報，有時候公務員的職等並沒有那麼高，所以不用申報，可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊或每天跟在誰的旁邊，這些人可能就是隨著部長進退，反正他也不是公務員。這些人的財產原則上不用申報，你們做特殊查核的時候，要查他的財產，也要他同意，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：如果他不同意呢？"],["陳局長白立：現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人（被查核人）同意，他如果不同意的話，我們就會告訴他的用人機關，說這個人不同意。至於要不要用，就由用人機關來決定。"],["王委員義川：如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關不提報，調查局是不會去查的就對了？"],["陳局長白立：不會，我們是被動，用人機關函查，我們才會查。"],["王委員義川：除非接到檢舉？"],["陳局長白立：檢舉又是另外一個狀況，可能就進入司法調查，不是特殊查核。"],["王委員義川：我最後問一下部長，最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署、偽造連署，法務部有沒有政策引導、暗示、明示，說只辦誰、不辦誰？部長有沒有下過這種命令？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是絕對沒有。因為這個都是民眾告發或中選會告發才來偵辦，有犯罪嫌疑的，當然檢調要嚴辦，我們沒有什麼立場跟任何考量，純粹就是案件的偵辦。"],["王委員義川：就是有人去告發？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有人告發或中選會，目前都是中選會或者民眾來告發才立案偵辦的，我們沒有任何的考量。我們就是採客觀公正、勿枉勿縱的辦案態度，沒有任何的政治考量。"],["王委員義川：包括偵辦的方式、手法，這一些都是負責的檢察官自己去決定、研判嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個案，我們不會去介入、干涉、指導，個案完全是由檢察官指揮偵辦……"],["王委員義川：法務部會不會跟檢察官說，你這樣偵辦社會觀感不好，不要這樣、太粗魯等等，會嗎？法務部會說這種話嗎？還是你就是檢察官，你的手法或你要怎麼偵辦，那是你針對個案掌握的訊息怎麼樣就去辦，完全是檢察官自己決定就對了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，委員說的就是目前偵辦的現況。"],["王委員義川：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。那在這邊跟委員會還有王委員報告一下，剛剛王委員請我們詢問的事項，就是過往到底國安會有沒有派員來。剛剛議事人員有查到第9屆第1會期第7次全體委員會議，當時的召委是段宜康委員，確實也不是法律案或預算案，國安會也有派員到場。"],["吳委員思瑤：當時的主題是什麼？"],["主席：當時的主題是「就『國家資安體系及國家資通安全科技中心』籌備情形，進行專題報告，並備質詢」，這是當時的紀錄。我再重申一次是立法院第9屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會會議，當時的召委是段宜康委員，就我剛剛說明的題目，他們有進行專題報告跟備詢，當時國安會確實有派員到場。今天的會議對於國安會，我們沒有指定要哪一位來，他們當時是派諮詢委員到場，我們今天也是沒有指定要任何人，所以今天國安會的簽到欄是空白的，各位可以去看，我們是依循過往的作法去做。"],["王委員義川：請教一個……"],["主席：我在這邊跟王委員報告一下，確實完全沒有來請假，國安會這次是沒有。剛剛在各位委員還沒有到場的時候，我們有請議事人員詢問國安會，國安會也是表示，他們依據憲政制度，不願意到場。剛剛議事人員跟我如此回報，以上是就剛剛王義川委員的詢問加以說明。","接下來，我先作會議程序宣告：第一、待會兒在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。這是第一件事。第二件事就是現在有委員提出臨時提案，依據本會往例是在11點左右處理，但是時間有點太近了，所以我預先宣告處理時間，本日11點40分處理委員所提出的臨時提案，屆時如果有委員正在詢答，我們就是在該委員詢答完畢之後，馬上進行處理。","接下來請王鴻薇委員進行詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長好我今天有三個問題要請教我們部長因為今天是業務報告一個就我們邦交關係以目前我們看這兩天在巴拉圭的媒體報導說洪都拉斯因為被中國騙了簡單一句話就是中國承諾的事情不僅沒有做到"},{"start":29.995,"end":52.034,"text":"反而把中國廉價的貨品倒進去宏都拉斯的市場導致宏都拉斯的失業率不斷上升另外白蝦的部分過去佔他們出口的40%台灣的報價好 佔比也高一年跟他們大概有2億美金的交易額等等所以有傳出兩個消息一個是宏都拉斯的外交部長說想要來找台灣"},{"start":54.076,"end":73.111,"text":"他當時見利忘義,中國的大撒幣大概只撒到他們的政治人物,他們的民眾並沒有得到好處,把頭賣出去,背死受苦。那現在他們的外交部長,他知道國內的經濟局勢出問題了,說想要回頭拜託跟台灣,是不是能夠重啟經貿等等。"},{"start":74.332,"end":95.332,"text":"那第二個是巴拉圭這個媒體報導說紅國有意向重新尋求跟我們台灣的所謂的邦交關係我不知道部長對這個事情有什麼樣的看法是他們洪都拉斯的總統候選人之一有公開的表示是還不只一位啦有兩位就是說如果他們獲選當選為總統"},{"start":98.876,"end":112.887,"text":"執政他們要恢復跟台灣的邦交這個是他們講的那當然我們也密切關注另外就是說我是從白蝦這個事情可以看到是我們幫忙宏都拉斯發展起來的他有點忘恩負義"},{"start":114.248,"end":132.209,"text":"結果傷了他們的人民中國答應了都跳票而且還請消中國跳票國家其實可以整理出一個名冊了他跳票國家很多所以我們現在幫忙貝里斯發展白蝦而且現在我們業者都認為貝里斯的環境"},{"start":133.43,"end":153.247,"text":"來養殖白蝦比宏圖拉斯好很多坦白講我們幫了很多國家啦那我們也不走大傻逼的路線了不花錢不走金錢文外交但宏國有做這樣表述的時候我請教部長他們的外交部長雷伊娜或他們的經貿部長有沒有透過總是過去是邦交國嘛有沒有透過關係尋求我國的協助"},{"start":156.389,"end":184.706,"text":"因為外交涉及到我想有一些是機密性我就不好意思在公開場合我另外私底下再跟委員來詳細報告他們公開有講嘛那當然我們也聽到了但是事實上當然不可能用這個方式去談到這個所謂的重新去進口的問題國家利益國家尊嚴還是要守住對就是說我們是一個好朋友但是不是潘納也就是說當你"},{"start":185.566,"end":204.971,"text":"做出對我們國家實質損害的時候坦白講我不吃白蝦都可以我不見得要買別人的絕對不可能買他的嘛這是國人的一個心情那我接著這個問題我請教我們部長目前全世界國家當中有沒有國家在尋求跟台灣重建或建立正式的外交關係"},{"start":206.843,"end":231.613,"text":"我們現在的所謂總和外交其實從以前的固邦發展到隆邦進一步要拓邦那當然我們要拓邦必須做好隆邦因為人家就會覺得跟台灣建交是可以學習台灣的發展模式這樣才會有助於固邦所以這個是三位一體所以委員講的沒有錯這個是理論嘛有些國家是很羨慕啊"},{"start":233.134,"end":248.454,"text":"跟我們建交的國家得到的發展經驗比如說像史瓦帝尼我們對他的幫助不是一般的援外我們已經在建構他的智慧城市然後醫院 農業其實這些都是周邊國家現在我們電網我是要請教就是說"},{"start":250.777,"end":274.752,"text":"我們當然我們台灣是全世界大概以外交的教科書來講是獨立的一章啦我們跟主流國家也許沒有正式的邦交關係但是跟主流國家像美國啦歐盟互動的關係甚至於比他們有邦交關係的還要密切這是一課我現在問的是另外一課就是說我們正式官方的邦交關係曾經有某太平洋的島國也曾經說過"},{"start":276.033,"end":291.814,"text":"那南美洲有兩個國家曾經有人表達過我現在正式詢問我們國家的外交部就是說就你現在了解有沒有國家我們要問哪一國在尋求跟我們重建或建立新的正式邦交關係"},{"start":294.256,"end":317.202,"text":"我們在朝這個目標啦 當然還沒有到成熟的階段不過我們當然希望能夠增加邦交國不過我們現在是先把我們的這個邦交國的發展模式做好因為以前在談這個是不是建交 涉及到是不是要什麼樣的條件我們現在就是沒條件 我們這個條件就是我們在我們建交國家發展的模式"},{"start":317.842,"end":344.334,"text":"都可以適用在未來跟我們建交的國家因為我問這個問題是2758號決議文在世界各主流國家美國還有很多州政府英國啦或者義大利的外委會啦都通過2758號決議文的真相是不涉及台灣而2758號決議文是當年中國建構所謂的一中不管是政策或原則的法理基礎這個法理基礎"},{"start":345.014,"end":368.034,"text":"你去看那個原文根本沒有處理台灣的代表權問題所以美國相當積極告訴各國說根據這個決議各國應該可以跟台灣發展關係也是台灣參加國際組織的法律基礎這個在法律戰上面所以這幾年的2758號決議文演變到後面要展現出來的成果就是有些國家縱使他跟中國有邦交"},{"start":368.715,"end":395.376,"text":"他也是可以跟台灣邦交另外一個就是國際的組織特別是聯合國轄下的組織台灣並沒有被任何國家代表包括中國這個法理基礎現在全世界澳洲先通過決議了所以我用這一個基礎才會問部長目前有沒有國家他們未必要跟中國斷交可是尋求跟台灣重建相當程度的外交關係有還是沒有或者說現在未成熟不能表達"},{"start":397.146,"end":420.653,"text":"在法理上剛剛委員講以2758號就是這個解釋文現在得到美國還有友邦的支持大家一定要清楚這要做很多在做溝通宣傳嘛讓大家了解不是中共講的2758號就一中原則然後台灣就中華人民共和國這個是已經我講我們在做一些國際上面的攻防嘛可是另外來講就有些國家他知道跟台灣"},{"start":421.593,"end":441.472,"text":"建立邦交是好的 可是這個是有空間 但現實上是什麼可能他們的執政黨或他們的精英啊 或他們因為被控制啦包括一些債務陷阱啦整個國家幾乎都被中國控制他就很難再改變那這個時候怎麼樣去尋求外交關係的拓展啊"},{"start":441.932,"end":458.605,"text":"我們當然也會評估另外也就是包括像美日一些國家對他們來講也是重要的戰略位置的地方我想在中美洲委員就知道我想這個盧比奧國務卿去之後我想在中美洲我們現在只剩下瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯"},{"start":460.166,"end":483.556,"text":"很多國家都會覺得說 現在美國的政策對西半球的重視那台灣所在之地啊 就也可以加強跟美國關係這個都是正面的也許有些東西正在cooking當中 不便透露但我覺得這一塊其實是從法理基礎到實質的案例也許是一個努力的方向我另外一個請問當然要抗壓性 我們要協助他避免中國的經濟脅迫"},{"start":484.616,"end":490.658,"text":"我請教一個態度的問題就是說我們在外交部這邊曾經編列協助烏克蘭的經費那目前美國對烏克蘭的態度川普政府對烏克蘭的態度確實有很明顯的不同那我們不替別國詮釋他們的外交政策我們現在回過來review我們國家的部分"},{"start":513.166,"end":539.018,"text":"那烏克蘭當然過去他們跟中國關係不錯但是也看到澤倫斯基總統這兩天開始揭露中國軍演俄羅斯甚至有中國傭兵在烏克蘭戰場打仗也抓了兩個戰俘開了國際記者會我請教一下我們國家目前的態度對於烏克蘭的人道援助是會繼續還是會跟隨著美國的節奏做一個重新的評估"},{"start":540.751,"end":564.521,"text":"我們還是會從人道援助持續在支持烏克蘭包括像城市發展很多重建像最近智慧城市展很多烏克蘭的市長來其實他們也面對很大壓力所以中央政府受制於這個國際現實但是地方政府就有空間那現在澤倫斯基已經公開講了事實上去年的這個NATO的這個高峰會就已經點名"},{"start":566.042,"end":579.633,"text":"二無戰爭 俄國背後的所謂的Decisive Enabler關鍵的推手就是中共啊 中國啊那現在烏克蘭面對到 甚至中國也有人去參軍"},{"start":581.614,"end":609.412,"text":"這個是我們當然希望我們希望烏克蘭能夠不要去因為中國的因素限制了跟台灣的來往他們過去被中國這樣子簽了所謂的他們簽了好多條約我只問一件事情就是目前跟烏克蘭地方政府的交流持續人道援助持續但是新的局勢的變化烏克蘭的中央政府跟我方到底有沒有開始接觸還是保持跟原來一樣"},{"start":611.416,"end":626.65,"text":"其實接觸是有限,我們就是透過第三國因為其實在中東歐的國家也很關心烏克蘭跟台灣有一些合作,我們有一些援外或有一些互動當然也透過第三國我們有機會再探討這問題,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：早。"],["王委員定宇：我今天有三個問題要請教部長，因為今天是業務報告，第一個就我們的邦交關係，目前我們看這兩天在巴拉圭的媒體報導，說宏都拉斯因為被中國騙了，簡單一句話就是中國承諾的事情不僅沒有做到，反而把中國廉價的貨品倒進去宏都拉斯的市場，導致宏都拉斯的失業率不斷上升；另外，白蝦過去占他們出口的40%，臺灣的報價好、占比也高，一年跟他們的交易額大概有2億美金等等。所以有傳出兩個消息，一個是宏都拉斯的外交部長說，想要來找臺灣，他當時見利忘義，中國大撒幣大概只撒到他們的政治人物，他們的民眾並沒有得到好處，只收買上頭，百姓受苦。現在他們的外交部長知道國內的經濟局勢出問題了，所以想要回頭拜託，跟臺灣是不是能夠重啟經貿等等。第二個是巴拉圭這個媒體報導說，宏國有意向重新尋求跟臺灣的邦交關係。我不知道部長對這個事情有什麼樣的看法？"],["林部長佳龍：他們宏都拉斯的總統候選人之一有公開表示，事實上還不只1位，有2位，就是說如果他們當選為總統執政，他們要恢復跟臺灣的邦交。這個是他們講的，當然我們也密切關注。另外，從白蝦這個事情可以看到，是我們幫忙宏都拉斯發展起來的，他有點忘恩負義，結果傷了他們的人民。中國答應的都跳票，而且還傾銷到宏都拉斯……"],["王委員定宇：中國跳票的國家其實可以整理出一個名冊，他跳票的國家很多。"],["林部長佳龍：是，所以我們現在幫忙貝里斯發展白蝦，而且現在我們的業者都認為，貝里斯的環境養殖白蝦比宏都拉斯好很多。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，我們幫了很多國家，我們也不走大撒幣的路線了，不花錢、不走金錢外交，但宏國有做這樣表述的時候，我請教部長，過去他們總是邦交國，他們的外交部長雷依納或他們的經貿部長有沒有透過關係尋求我國的協助？"],["林部長佳龍：因為外交的部分我想有一些涉及機密性，我就不好意思在公開場合說明，我另外私底下再跟委員詳細報告。他們有公開講，當然我們也聽到了，但是事實上不可能用這個方式談重新進口的問題。"],["王委員定宇：國家利益、國家尊嚴還是要守住。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我們是一個好朋友，但是不是「盼仔」，也就是說，當你做出對我們國家造成實質損害的時候，坦白講，我不吃白蝦都可以，我不見得要買別人的，絕對不可能買他的，這是國人的心情。","接著我請教部長這個問題，目前全世界的國家當中，有沒有國家尋求跟臺灣重建或建立正式的外交關係？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，我們現在所謂總和外交，其實從以前的固邦發展到榮邦，然後進一步要拓邦。當然，我們要拓邦必須做好榮邦，因為人家就會覺得跟臺灣建交可以學習臺灣的發展模式，這樣才會有助於固邦，這個是三位一體，所以委員講得沒有錯……"],["王委員定宇：這個是理論……"],["林部長佳龍：有些國家很羨慕跟我們建交的國家得到的發展經驗，比如像史瓦帝尼，我們對他的幫助不是一般的援外，我們已經在建構他的智慧城市、醫院、農業等等，其實這些都是周邊國家，單單像電網……"],["王委員定宇：我是要請教，當然我們臺灣在全世界以外交的教科書來講是獨立的一章，我們跟主流國家也許沒有正式的邦交關係，但是跟主流國家，像美國、歐盟互動的關係，甚至於比他們有邦交關係的還要密切，這是一課。我現在問的是另外一課，就是我們正式、官方的邦交關係。曾經有某太平洋的島國也說過，南美洲也有2個國家曾經有人表達過，我現在正式詢問我們國家的外交部，就你現在了解，有沒有國家，我沒有問哪一國，在尋求跟我們重建或是建立新的正式邦交關係？"],["林部長佳龍：我們在朝這個目標，還沒有到成熟的階段。我們當然希望能夠增加邦交國，不過我們現在是先把這個邦交國的發展模式做好，因為以前在談是不是建交，涉及是不是要什麼樣的條件，我們現在就是沒條件。我們的條件就是，與我們建交國家發展的模式，都可以適用在未來跟我們建交的國家。"],["王委員定宇：我問這個問題的原因是由於聯合國大會2758號決議文，世界各主流國家，像美國、很多州政府、英國或者義大利的外委會都通過2758號決議文的真相不涉及臺灣。2758號決議文是當年中國建構所謂的一中，不管是政策或原則的法理基礎。這個法理基礎，你去看那個原文，根本沒有處理臺灣的代表權問題，所以美國相當積極告訴各國說，根據這個決議，各國應該可以跟臺灣發展關係，也是臺灣參加國際組織的法律基礎，這個是在法律戰上面。所以這幾年2758號決議文演變到後面展現出來的成果，就是有些國家縱使跟中國有邦交，他也可以跟臺灣有邦交。另外一個就是國際組織，特別是聯合國轄下的組織，臺灣並沒有被任何國家代表，包括中國，這個法理基礎現在全世界中澳洲先通過決議了，所以我基於這一個基礎才會問部長，目前有沒有國家，他們未必要跟中國斷交，可是在尋求跟臺灣重建相當程度的外交關係，有還是沒有？或者說現在未成熟，不能表達？"],["林部長佳龍：在法理上，剛剛委員講到2758號解釋文，現在得到美國及友邦的支持，大家已經比較清楚，這要做很多溝通、宣傳，讓大家了解不是中共講的2758號就是一中原則、臺灣是中華人民共和國的一部分，我們已經在做一些國際上面的攻防。可是另外一方面來講，有些國家知道跟臺灣建立邦交是好的，這方面是有空間，但現實上是什麼？可能他們的執政黨或他們的菁英被控制了，因為一些債務的陷阱，整個國家幾乎都被中國控制，它就很難再改變，這個時候怎麼樣去尋求外交關係的拓展，我們當然也會評估。另外就是包括像美、日一些國家，對他們來講也是重要的戰略位置，委員也知道在中美洲，Rubio國務卿去之後……目前我們在中美洲只剩下瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯兩個邦交國，可是很多國家都會覺得現在美國政策對西半球的重視，臺灣所在之地也可以加強跟美國的關係，這個都是正面的。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我不為難你啦，也許有些東西正在cooking當中，不便透露，但我覺得這一塊從法理基礎到實質的案例，也許是一個努力的方向，我另外一個要請教你的……"],["林部長佳龍：它要有抗壓性，我們要協助它避免中國的經濟脅迫。"],["王委員定宇：那當然，這個要……"],["林部長佳龍：中國的排山倒海會讓一些國家有所顧忌，所以我們要跟美國一起來push back。"],["王委員定宇：這個要多層次的合作。","最後一分鐘我想請教一個態度的問題，外交部曾經編列協助烏克蘭的經費，目前美國川普政府對烏克蘭態度確實有很明顯的不同，我們不替別國詮釋他們的外交政策，我們現在回過頭來review我們國家的部分，烏克蘭過去跟中國的關係不錯，但是我們也看到澤倫斯基總統這兩天開始揭露中國軍援俄羅斯，甚至有中國傭兵在烏克蘭戰場打仗，也抓了兩個戰俘，開了國際記者會。我請教一下我們國家目前的態度，對於烏克蘭的人道援助是會繼續，還是會跟隨美國的節奏重新評估？"],["林部長佳龍：我們還是會從人道援助持續支持烏克蘭，包括城市發展及很多重建，像最近智慧城市展很多烏克蘭的市長來，其實他們也面對很大壓力，他們的中央政府受制於國際現實，但是地方政府就有空間，現在澤倫斯基已經公開講了，事實上去年的NATO高峰會就已經點名在俄烏戰爭當中，俄國背後的關鍵推手就是中國，甚至中國也有人去參軍，我們當然希望……"],["王委員定宇：因為時間的關係……"],["林部長佳龍：我簡單講一下，我們希望烏克蘭不要因為中國的因素而限制了跟臺灣的來往。"],["王委員定宇：他們過去跟中國簽了許多條約，我只問一件事情，就是目前跟烏克蘭地方政府的交流持續、人道援助持續，但是面對新的局勢變化，烏克蘭中央政府跟我方到底有沒有開始接觸？還是保持跟原來一樣？"],["林部長佳龍：其實接觸是有限，我們甚至還透過第三國，其實中東歐的國家也很關心烏克蘭，他們跟臺灣有一些合作，我們有一些援外或有一些互動，當然也透過第三國。"],["王委員定宇：好，我們有機會再來探討這個問題，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員上臺質詢，待會兒徐巧芯委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160410","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160410","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8c4643f889672f074de1cdb79e21bd2990fed3d90e8b9dd2ef710b917354ebcad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"10:38:03 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感謝副長我認為最近在地方都聽到一些像我們這個陀螺特寬的開發案上到我們這個土地證書審議小組去討論 時間都比較久"},{"start":22.25,"end":25.193,"text":"在這裡也希望跟國調討論一下有一個案子需要土地整合都已經來完成了土地案子上跟國會的信息發現有時候會有五百件新責案還有時候會卡很久雖然我們內政國務也很努力在擺這個新責會但是有什麼可以"},{"start":48.244,"end":65.779,"text":"來改變這個方式 增加我們區域的速度跟這個效力 感謝委員的關心 我知道有兩個你委員比較在乎的 我請我們的行政董事跟你回答一下好 委員委員所垂詢的部分應該是滿國大道 就上上禮拜在土增小組討論這兩案 那這兩案其實"},{"start":67.72,"end":85.53,"text":"在討論的過程中其實小組針對整個案子的一些公閉性部分還有一些疑慮那也請雲林縣政府在補正中那我們會盡量去協助雲林縣政府在補強這一塊那事先做檢視那如果過程中如果沒有問題的話會盡快來排會處理一個見識案其實我們覺得說時間拖延到對地方的發電會有關還有一項土地清修已經達到90多塊"},{"start":95.427,"end":99.009,"text":"時間也已經達到九十五分鐘了創業的國分 希望我們這個省座可以維持當這個公共利益跟我們個人民眾的利益這個中間的均衡可以順利的合作來完成這個國分希望可以來到三天"},{"start":117.058,"end":121.42,"text":"定委員的關心我們會盡速來處理不過土征的條例就是這個樣子那我們盡快會再跟雲林縣政府請他趕快把我們所這個會議結論裡面的部分趕快回應給我們那我們就可以盡快來通過土征好 感謝國長另外再一次關於我們這個中高運幹團體和大陸交流"},{"start":140.652,"end":144.373,"text":"我們內政部正在公開說明說有推出赴大陸交流資訊公開的專項歡迎你們團體跟合作社去大陸經營藥物或中藥交流進程來登記來登錄這個活動資訊"},{"start":163.376,"end":171.079,"text":"我們鼓勵我們的社團宗教業務他們去登記因為我的社區是很多宗教的地方我們也希望說他們落實登記之後像之前我過去也跟國長提起他們進行宗教交流所以要去接受調查"},{"start":192.588,"end":198.652,"text":"這個國分過去都有發生過像這個國分 我們登錄實際來 登錄之後真的實際來 落實到我們政府的政策登錄公開化 透明化之後 後來會發生什麼問題報告委員 我很感謝委員的支持我們現在就是 只要去大陸 大陸來沒有"},{"start":216.653,"end":228.396,"text":"我們是採取鼓勵制度啦 有一些宗教團體 因為我們有半個宗教團體的主巡會議六十幾個大廟來參加 因為這是好的風險所以在我們定期的部分是只有定期社團 還是廟本身譬如說 婚禮 八卦 媽祖經 只有這樣而已 裡面的人沒有"},{"start":238.703,"end":265.379,"text":"自然人沒有在那裡面他去的這個時間跟去的地點讓我們知道一下而且是採取自由的是他如果不願意登記我們也沒有辦法我知道現在只是只是在讓他更公開資訊的話那未來會不會變成是有調查的方式的話那是牽涉到我們的國安法跟反滲透法那又不一樣那不一定是內政那不是內政部會主要主政我知道"},{"start":265.879,"end":270.301,"text":"這個國分我們也需要了解一下,我們總共的交流,總共的交流去跟大陸,我們金融系都有事情,我們平平和選舉搞就都有事情,我們就感覺很奇怪。報告委員,這個要整體的,可能要詢問相關的單位才會比較清楚。希望啦,我也鼓勵總共團體,可以落實我們政府的政策,落實經濟。"},{"start":292.229,"end":298.995,"text":"這個資訊透明 這我們都真的支持我們這個進程希望說 宗教交流我們把它單純化就好我們把它單純化 它就真的六十來年紀了我們就把它單純化就好 別說在後面還有那個發生到說喔 回來就要再去調查要去做我們覺得說這樣對一個宗教交流的那個人那個風向意向就已經沒有好處了"},{"start":320.452,"end":340.146,"text":"不過委員這裡面有立案登記的一個宗廟團體其實都是鼓勵人向上而且是以宗教為目的啦但是這裡面還有未立案未立案我們也鼓勵啦那未立案的話就比較複雜一點我想這一點可能要請委員多了解一下是 我了解 好 感謝國長 謝謝好 謝謝 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謝謝 部長 劉部長有請很主動 謝謝柳澤部長 早安 這個今天討論的是行政區劃那行政區劃過去在北部的討論可能也是因為我是北部的民意代表 說到的資訊也是比較多啦那也是因為在北部的行政區劃我們新北市的 過去台北縣跟現在新北市的劃分"},{"start":27.591,"end":50.721,"text":"好像是過去因為可能就是適應為了台北市的發展然後為了調整台北市的發展那剩下的給新北市所以說台北縣新北市的一個形狀大家看起來會比較奇怪所以說在過去的前部長林毆昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他一些的構想包括基隆跟一些東北角跟北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市或者是跟汐止結合起來那到這個台北市變成大台北市"},{"start":56.744,"end":65.907,"text":"或者是現在的基隆市長謝國良他也有做過一些去年有做一些討論就是可能北北基桃合併或者是基隆市直接來跟這個新北市來做合併那這兩個方案那或者是說謝宜農先生不同政黨謝宜農先生也有提出來基隆跟汐止合併跟台北市合併那跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方"},{"start":82.253,"end":107.137,"text":"那身為內政部的角色面對社會上那麼多的討論你們現在有沒有自己的一些想法我不是說您支持哪些方案而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問題他們可能一定是看到現況的某些問題所以才提出來一些方案來討論那您對於北北基這樣子的行政劃分您看到的一些問題那可能未來您認為可能會調整的方向大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":107.768,"end":125.187,"text":"是謝謝委員對於選區裡面或者是說對於周遭的一些城鄉發展的部分那我跟委員這個做一個比較大致上的我的想法第一個就是說很多委員會覺得說如果把所有的這些區劃的調整全部放在行政區劃法確實太複雜"},{"start":127.369,"end":143.243,"text":"因為它所有的地理條件也好或者人口或是發展的條件都不相同所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序但是在處理程序的過程當中不是只有由上而下譬如說由行政院跟縣市地方政府然後共同決定"},{"start":143.863,"end":171.265,"text":"它裡面還有立法院還有各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至如果以宜蘭為主還有鄉鎮代表會那這些都代表民意這是一個那另外一個就是說如果只有處理程序然後不處理實質也就是說我們把它劃進去譬如說汐止它現在的生活圈是以新北為主還是基隆為主還是台北為主可能您的選民就有不同的意見所以你要以生活圈來劃區劃"},{"start":173.246,"end":200.576,"text":"或者是要以譬如說可能是跟自己的剛剛有委員有提到我是原住民的區劃為主那就各種不同的想法但是呢我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去要把它收攏所以我們才會說爭議很大那過去呢這個歷任呢好多委員不管是朝野的委員都有提到甚至我們自己行政院有六次但六次都沒有辦法成功不是因為委員不夠努力而是因為意見太多"},{"start":201.656,"end":222.983,"text":"你說六四是指法的部分還是法律法律是意見無法收容那委員如果會程序歸程序啦或是說這個剛剛講的就是一些背景問題那我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題是實質上的問題就是我剛剛所說的很多委員會希望爭取最好的在自己的選區"},{"start":224.543,"end":231.495,"text":"不好的不要在我的選區就是也沒有好不好啦這個都是我們的民眾嘛不會有就像"},{"start":232.817,"end":256.082,"text":"基隆市長謝國良的立場或者說新北市長侯友宇的立場不一樣他們是首長嘛你說你要把新北市的六個區撥給基隆市那當然行政首長的立場一定會認為他一定會認為不是那麼的妥當嘛我過去的發言他的立場就是這樣子嘛但是不同樣的一個位置不一樣的行政單位所看到的角色不一樣"},{"start":256.502,"end":273.531,"text":"地方行政首長看到行政區畫的一個角度那我們內政部是看全國性的我們會有全國性的一個角度那一定是現況有一些需要討論的事情嘛所以說基隆其實基隆當然是首長討論比較多那當然我是系者民意代表嘛"},{"start":273.931,"end":299.237,"text":"系的民眾也會有相關的討論那一定是看到現況的問題比如說生活圈剛剛部長講的生活圈或是交通建設基隆捷運為什麼一條基隆捷運需要跨到這個台北市 汐止 基隆交通建設需要三個行政所擋在同一邊變成說地方建設的一個討論它的程序會比其他地方來的困難或者說增加一些程序所以大家才希望說在行政"},{"start":300.197,"end":324.685,"text":"出發方面能夠做一些檢討來減少一些我們行政程序上面本位主義上面的一些摩擦啦那所以才請教部長您看到的實際的問題有哪一些那可能可以怎麼樣來檢討我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法啦我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的如果你是屬於這個中央層級要決定的部分的話我可能要決定譬如說北北基島是不是一個大的生活圈"},{"start":325.385,"end":340.735,"text":"所以既然是一個大的生活圈在現在行政院他並沒有強制要求說這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市而是先解決您剛所說的捷運是不是可以四通八達這個北北基桃都可以在裡面甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭我想你也非常清楚"},{"start":341.255,"end":353.785,"text":"這是我們看到的但是地方裡面譬如說新北市你新北市區公所下面還有一些禮要不要調整那如果你調整出去或調整進來會牽涉到什麼會牽涉到議員的"},{"start":356.347,"end":381.364,"text":"額度又不一樣了,人口不一樣了對,其實對我的立場來說其實細子病種說不定我這個位置就不在了但其實我不是很在乎啦好的方案才是最重要啦那我知道可能今天臨時跟您討論這個比較敏感的問題你也不敢講太直接但我既然知道既然我們要再次討論行政區劃法那我想北北基這個問題是不是未來就會被討論出來那我們行政院必須要有自己行政院的一個"},{"start":382.485,"end":410.746,"text":"方案或者是立場跟想法來做一些討論我們行政院的方案譬如說國發會它有對於公共建設的部分會比較好因為可以跨縣市那但是呢財政部的話就財政收支因為不同部會我們內政部就管這個行政區域的主管機關所以我們會很困難那後續就是希望有一些更實質上的一些想法能夠做討論所以我們非常支持說如果用公聽會的方式把不管是跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來"},{"start":412.028,"end":422.63,"text":"請他們講一下他們對於這個行政區劃的基本上的看法後面理解可不可以提出比較建設性的方案的話我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（10時30分）謝謝，部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["廖委員先翔：部長早安，今天討論的是行政區劃法。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員先翔：行政區劃過去在北部的討論，可能也因為我是北部的民意代表，收到的資訊也比較多，也是因為北部的行政區劃，過去臺北縣跟現在新北市的劃分可能是為適應臺北市的發展、為了調整臺北市的發展，剩下的就給新北市，所以臺北縣（新北市）的形狀大家看起來就比較奇怪。","雖然過去的前部長林右昌在擔任基隆市長的時候也有提出他的一些構想，包括基隆跟東北角、北海岸的一些行政區合併為北海市，或者是跟汐止結合起來納到臺北市變成大臺北市，或者是現在的基隆市長謝國樑去年也有做過一些討論，就是可讓北北基桃合併，或者是基隆市直接跟新北市合併這兩個方案，或者是不同政黨的吳怡農先生也有提出基隆、汐止跟臺北市合併，這跟前面兩者的論述其實也有一致的地方。","身為內政部的角色，面對社會上那麼多討論，你們現在有沒有一些自己的想法？並不是說您支持哪些方案，而是您有沒有看到現況的哪些問……他們一定是看到了現況的某些問題，所以才提出一些方案來討論，您對於北北基這樣的行政區劃分，及所看到的一些問題，未來你認為可能要調整的方向大概是怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員對於選區裡或是對周遭城鄉發展的部分……我跟委員說一個我大致上的想法。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["劉部長世芳：第一個就是，很多委員會覺得，如果把所有這些區劃的調整全部放到行政區劃法確實太複雜，因為所有的地理條件也好，或者人口、發展的條件都不相同，所以想把它簡化為只有處理程序。但是在處理程序的過程當中，不是只有由上而下，譬如由行政院跟縣市地方政府共同決定，它裡面還有立法院、各種不同的縣市議會或者甚至……如果以宜蘭為主的，還有鄉鎮代表會，這些都代表民意，這是一個。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["劉部長世芳：另外一個就是，如果只有處理程序而不處理實質，也就是說，我們把它劃進去，譬如說汐止，它現在的生活圈是以新北為主，還是基隆為主，還是臺北為主？您的選民可能就有不同的意見，所以你要以生活圈來區劃，或者是要以……譬如可能是跟自己的……剛剛有委員提到，我是原住民的區劃為主，那就有各種不同的想法。但是我們不能任由這些想法一直發散出去，而要把它收攏，所我們才會說爭議很大。過去歷任好多委員，不管是朝野的委員都有提到，甚至我們自己行政院也有6次，但是6次都沒有辦法成功，並不是因為委員不夠努力，而是因為意見太多。"],["廖委員先翔：你說的6次是指法的部分，還是……"],["劉部長世芳：是法律。因為意見無法收攏，委員如果想要關心……"],["廖委員先翔：程序歸程序，或者是剛剛講的，就是一些背景……我想跟部長討論的是實質上的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是，實質的部分就是我剛剛所說的，很多委員希望爭取最好的在自己的選區，不好的不要在我的選區。"],["廖委員先翔：也沒有好不好啦，這個都是我們的民眾，就像基隆市長謝國樑的立場，或者是新北市長侯友宜的立場不一樣，他們是首長，你說你要把新北市的6個區撥給基隆市，站在行政首長的立場一定會認為不是那麼地妥當，他過去發言的立場就是這樣子嘛！但是不同的位置、不一樣的行政單位所看到的角度就不一樣，地方行政首長有地方首長看到行政區劃的角度，你們內政部是看全國性的，會有全國性的角度，一定是現況有一些須要討論的事情，所以基隆……其實基隆還是首長討論得比較多，當然我是汐止的民意代表，汐止的民眾也會有相關的討論，也一定是看到現況的問題，比如說，剛剛部長講的生活圈，或者是交通建設，像一條基隆捷運是跨臺北市、汐止、基隆的交通建設，需要3個行政首長的同意，就變成地方建設討論的程序會比其他地方來得困難，或者是增加一些程序，所以大家才希望在行政區劃方面能夠做一些檢討，減少一些行政程序上面、本位主義上面的一些摩擦，所以才要請教部長，您看到的實際問題有哪一些？可能可以怎麼樣來檢討？"],["劉部長世芳：我們尊重每一位縣市地方首長的看法，我看到的問題就是剛剛所說的，如果你是屬於中央層級要決定的部分，我可能要決定，譬如說北北基桃是不是一個大的生活圈，既然是一個大的生活圈，現在行政院並沒有強制要求要將這個大的生活圈變成是一個大的城市，而是先解決您剛剛所說的，捷運是不是可以四通八達，讓北北基桃都可以在裡面？甚至有人希望可以延伸到宜蘭，我想你也非常清楚，這是我們看到的，但是地方裡面，譬如新北市，你新北市區公所下面還有一些里，要不要調整？如果你調整出去或調整進來，會牽涉到什麼？會牽涉到議員的額度，這就又不一樣了，因為人口不一樣，選區就不一樣。"],["廖委員先翔：其實就我的立場來說，汐止併走說不定我的這個位置就不在了……"],["劉部長世芳：對，人口就下降……"],["廖委員先翔：但我其實不是很在乎啦，好的方案才是最重要的。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員先翔：我知道，可能今天臨時跟你討論這個比較敏感的問題，你也不敢講得太直接，但我們既然要再次討論行政區劃法，我想北北基這個問題未來勢必會被討論出來，行政院就必須要有自己的方案或是立場跟想法來做一些討論。"],["劉部長世芳：我們行政院的方案，譬如說國發會對公共建設的部分會比較好……因為可以跨縣市，但是財政部的話就有財政收支，因為不同縣市……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，不同部會，內政部就是管行政區劃的主管機關嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我們會很困擾。"],["廖委員先翔：後續就是希望有一些更實質上的想法能夠討論。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們非常支持能用公聽會的方式，不管是把跨部會或者是跨地方政府請過來，請他們講一下他們對這個行政區劃基本上的看法或理解，可不可以提出比較建設性的方案，我們都會遵照各個縣市地方政府所提供的意見。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖先翔委員，委員跟我一樣，即便行政區劃會影響到我們的選區，但人民的利益還是比我們個人的政治利益更重要，謝謝。丁學忠委員發言之後，我們休息3分鐘。","現在請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我想剛剛副主委所講的部分也是我們的立場好 謝謝既然大家都同意的話那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史日據時期的翻地制度把原住民族隔離管理差別對待從制度上就切割了我們的主體性而殖民政權設置了福肯署 紙產局"},{"start":125.843,"end":141.481,"text":"粗暴的濫墾濫伐掠奪山林跟土地的資源我們比較遺憾的是殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中原住民族被行政區劃切割了"},{"start":144.025,"end":161.276,"text":"我相信中副主委你很清楚我也相信部長也很清楚包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為七個縣市而排灣族呢他跨越了屏東跟台東兩個地區族群的整體性遭完全的破壞"},{"start":162.196,"end":180.198,"text":"然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合因此在今天我非常支持召委的行政區劃法的構想這個構想是將族群特性人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量"},{"start":180.959,"end":199.731,"text":"那我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配他應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求請問一下部長您同意這樣子的看法嗎"},{"start":201.473,"end":218.003,"text":"呃我想呃我想那個高金委員所提到的部分呢就是對於原住民的關心哈嗯但是在行政區劃上面呢確實沒有錯現行的行政區劃法呢在透過分流立法的方式呢並沒有現行哈並沒有把原住民"},{"start":218.923,"end":245.588,"text":"劃定在裡面原住民的區域但是未來如果有實質的民族自治尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議很好"},{"start":248.749,"end":271.909,"text":"也就是說由下而上 大家來共同討論 對吧好 所以呢 我主張 既然大家都談到了原住民的自治原住民的自治跟屠海法 其實呢 在立法院講了很久一直都沒有付諸行動 那既然呢 自治還沒談到我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法 我們開始把這個構想概念放在裡面"},{"start":272.85,"end":293.197,"text":"所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央三脈堡玉軸為基礎然後來整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構這不僅僅只是資源的再分配的問題而是必須要結合產業發展"},{"start":294.457,"end":323.031,"text":"生態保育跟財政的調配來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革我想以這樣子作為一個中心的討論的主軸中副主委你應該同意吧謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心的確這20幾年來如何自治如何劃分包括所謂土地也好或者權力也好或權限也好這個都是一直以來大家都在討論的一個議題"},{"start":324.585,"end":343.631,"text":"那針對委員的看法我是尊重委員這樣的一個想法好 非常謝謝不管是部長也好 園民會也好都同意我的看法也支持我的理念支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年中副主委你所寫的民族政策的發展跟影響 對吧那所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝昭緯"},{"start":344.591,"end":355.965,"text":"提了今天的行政區劃法的構想跟概念的確我們需要討論因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論也沒有辦法定下遊戲規則所以我在這邊有兩個請求"},{"start":363.655,"end":385.297,"text":"第一個我請內政部跟園民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項並且希望你們在一週之內要回覆本席辦公室第一個就是針對上會期地制法第83之7條直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果"},{"start":386.378,"end":404.969,"text":"第二個要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃的方案並且以本席剛剛所提到的國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業"},{"start":406.49,"end":435.476,"text":"儘速提出具體方向跟時間因為有提出這個之後呢也方便我們在公聽會也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法以上兩點需求希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室可以嗎跟委員報告這兩個議題都尤其是第二個議題還蠻蠻難大的不曉得一週的時間夠不夠喔好那你認為要多久"},{"start":436.411,"end":460.493,"text":"因為這個一定不好討論協文部長 報告委員是這樣子 地制法八十三支七條的部分我的同仁是告訴我說 財政部好像有一些他們的這個說明那另外就是有關國土計畫 我想高俊維非常清楚國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中 它是需要六年"},{"start":461.496,"end":486.556,"text":"的時間延到6年以後所以目前為止呢我們的國土計畫呢是以延到6年在區域計畫或者其他相關的計畫的時候再來做調整那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎我是很抱歉我比較才疏學淺我是第一次聽到是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後呢再來跟我們的國土計畫的相關單位提出一個方向好嗎"},{"start":487.116,"end":512.713,"text":"中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了是但是在國土計劃法裡面並沒有列進去對您當時還在做我們同事的時候其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸的問題但是現行的國土計劃法尤其是那個大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊所以我們並沒有在我們的這個行政單位的同仁裡面把它列為是這個現在要提出一週內要提出這個具體的時程所以您認為要多久的時間多久的時間能夠"},{"start":515.674,"end":528.361,"text":"我必須要問我們的國土署的同仁這樣子好不好給你們一個月的時間好不好至少要有一些看法如果有任何意見的話可以到我辦公室我們來做一些討論好嗎"},{"start":534.199,"end":556.27,"text":"報告高經緯我們同仁說你所提到的國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的部分讓我們回去我們自己行政單位做一下內部的資訊上的收集整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎所以一個月可以好那請內政部跟這個園民會一個月之內"},{"start":557.936,"end":572.982,"text":"對於以上我提的這兩個方案一個月之內能夠提供給我是就是內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊把它收攏過來以後再提供給委員參考好嗎好OK謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時21分）謝謝主席，我請部長，還有原民會鍾副主委。"],["主席：劉部長、鍾副主委有請。"],["劉部長世芳：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：也請部長看一下，我們鍾副主委在105年的時候，他有寫過「原住民族政策的發展與影響」，在這當中他有提到，原住民族政策的目標是以原住民族的史觀詮釋歷史為事實基礎，然後規劃原民轉型正義具體權利恢復或補償措施，走向族群之間真正的和解。而這書中也明確的指出，原住民史觀強調的是原民早於國家形成之前就已經存在，主權、人權、自由理應該被承認跟尊重。請教一下鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，委員。"],["高金委員素梅：民進黨執政到今天已經10年了，而原住民史觀跟主權的理念是不是有真正體現在我們的行政區劃制度當中？是不是有被納入我們非常多政策的規劃跟制度的設計？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，在105年總統蔡英文代表政府向原住民族道歉的時候，針對建立史觀這個部分有提出一些看法，所以我們在這幾年來，針對原住民族史觀的建置，我們都不遺餘力，也處理了很多歷史事件的資料跟史觀的建置。"],["高金委員素梅：好。部長，請問一下，你也支持吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想剛剛副主委所講的部分，也是我們的立場。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。既然大家都同意的話，那麼我們就先來回顧一下歷史，日治時期的蕃地制度把原住民族隔離管理、差別對待，從制度上就切割了我們的主體性，而殖民政權設置了什麼？撫墾署、殖產局，粗暴的濫墾、濫伐，掠奪山林跟土地的資源，我們比較遺憾的是，殖民治理的邏輯到現在仍然存在在我們的制度當中。原住民族被行政區劃切割了，我相信鍾副主委你很清楚，我相信部長也很清楚，包括我們的泰雅族就被分裂為7個縣市，排灣族則跨越了屏東跟臺東兩個地區，族群的整體性遭完全的破壞，然後治理的資源根本沒有辦法整合。","因此，今天我非常支持召委行政區劃法的構想，這個構想是將族群特性、人文歷史還有環境保護納入行政區劃的核心考量，我相信大家都支持也都同意行政區劃不應該只是人口跟地理的分配，它應該反映的是對歷史正義跟文化的尊重，並且要正視原住民的文化脈絡跟集體需求。請問一下部長，您同意這樣子的看法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想高金委員所提到的部分就是對於原住民的關心，但是在行政區劃上面……確實沒有錯，現行的行政區劃法透過分流立法的方式，並沒有把原住民的區域劃定在裡面……"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["劉部長世芳：但是未來如果有實質的民族自治，尤其是原住民族自治的相關法制的話，我們願意透過公聽的方式或是學者專家提供的意見，看是否有方便可以放到這個裡面，但是因為它所涉及到的部分還是要透過包括各縣市地方政府，還有就是原住民區域裡面的族群的部分一起來共同討論，我想這樣子比較不會產生太多的爭議。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好，也就是說由下而上，大家來共同討論，對吧？好，所以我主張……既然大家都談到了原住民的自治，原住民的自治跟土海法其實在立法院講了很久，一直都沒有付諸行動，既然自治還沒談到，我們現在就從所謂的行政區劃法，我們開始把這個構想、概念放在裡面，所以我主張以國土計畫中裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎，然後整合原鄉55個鄉鎮市區，來打造一套符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃的架構，這不僅僅只是資源再分配的問題，而是必須要結合產業發展、生態保育跟財政的調配，來推動符合原住民族發展需求的行政區劃改革，我想以這樣子作為一個中心討論的主軸，鍾副主委你應該同意吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員對於原住民族自治的關心，的確這二十幾年來如何自治、如何劃分，包括所謂土地也好，或者權力也好，或者權限也好，這個一直以來都是大家在討論的議題，針對委員的看法，我是尊重委員這樣的想法。"],["高金委員素梅：好，非常謝謝，不管是部長也好，原民會也好，都同意我的看法，也支持我的理念，支持我的理念其實也就是支持105年鍾副主委你所寫的「民族政策的發展與影響」，對吧？所以今天在這裡我也非常謝謝召委提了今天這個行政區劃法的構想跟概念，的確我們需要討論，因為沒有一個法作為依據的時候就沒有辦法討論，也沒有辦法訂下遊戲規則，所以我在這邊有兩個請求：第一個，我請內政部跟原民會要儘速完成以下兩項的事項，並且希望你們在一週之內要回復本席辦公室，第一個就是針對上會期地制法第八十三條之七，直轄市山地區財政挹注相關的問題，我要請內政部提出你們的研議結果。第二個，要請兩機關共同來研擬最適合原住民族的行政區劃方案，並且以本席剛剛所提國土計畫裡面的中央山脈保育軸為基礎，然後進行後續整體規劃跟相關法制作業，儘速提出具體方向跟時程。因為提出這個之後，除了方便我們公聽會，也方便我們地方由下而上提出一些構想跟想法。以上兩點需求，希望你們在一週之內能夠提供給本席辦公室，可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這兩個議題，尤其是第二個議題滿大的，不曉得一週的時間夠不夠。"],["高金委員素梅：好，那你認為要多久？請問部長？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，地制法第八十三條之七的部分，我的同仁告訴我說，財政部好像有一些他們的說明。另外就是有關國土計畫，我想高金委員非常清楚，國土計畫法在大院審查的過程當中，它是需要6年的時間，延到6年以後，所以目前為止，我們的國土計畫是延6年，在區域計畫或者其他相關計畫的時候再來做調整。那現在您所提到的中央山脈保育軸為基礎，很抱歉，我比較才疏學淺，我是第一次聽到，是不是容我了解一下這個狀況以後，再來跟我們國土計畫相關單位提出一個方向好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：中央山脈保育軸的問題其實談了很久了。"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是在國土計畫法裡面並沒有列進去。"],["高金委員素梅：對，您當時還在做我們同事的時候，其實我就一直提出這個中央山脈保育軸。"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是現行的國土計畫法，尤其是大院所通過的部分並沒有提到這一塊，所以我們行政單位的同仁並沒有把它列為是……現在一週內要提出具體的時程，恐怕會有困擾。"],["高金委員素梅：所以您認為要多久的時間？多久的時間能夠……"],["劉部長世芳：我必須要問我們國土署的同仁。"],["高金委員素梅：這樣子好不好，給你們一個月的時間，好不好？至少要有一些看法，如果有任何意見的話，可以到我的辦公室，我們來做一些討論好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告高金委員，我們同仁說您所提到的這個國土空間發展的部分是國發會所提的，回去後我們行政單位自己會做一下內部資訊上的蒐集，整合以後再提供給委員參考好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以一個月可以嗎？請內政部跟原民會一個月之內對以上我提的這兩個方案提供給我。"],["劉部長世芳：是，內政部跟原住民委員會還有財政部跟國發會把這些資訊收攏過來以後，再提供給委員參考好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：好，OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢。","下一位我們請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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村的部分的話呢就會有點複雜因為那個中央如果要長臂管轄到那個部分的話確實用一個行政區劃法會有點這個會太複雜 因為全台灣"},{"start":328.749,"end":345.883,"text":"七八千個里不可能去處理這個部分所以我們才會說姿勢體大不是不願意解決而是說如何找到一個大家都可以接受的方式要凝聚共識那我們是不是有跟地方政府來討論過有但是地方政府也隨著他的不同首長又有不同的看法議會也一樣四年一邊議會四年一邊不一樣的議長說出來的理由也是不太一樣所以這就很困擾的地方"},{"start":357.893,"end":377.079,"text":"所以我認為,拜託北京,因為這一定要說地方政府跟地方政府大家都要先去協調好,然後區會要去規劃好這樣我們才能整個,不然你中央好答應了,你就像財劃法那地方上又有非常多的聲音,那這樣我們在這裡,因為這個"},{"start":380.18,"end":399.619,"text":"企劃法未來的規劃是牽涉好幾十年的事可能畫下去就不會再改變了你當了部長我們當了民意代表未來都要承受啊好不好還是要要謹慎啦要很完整的規劃好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":487,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時14分）主席、與會同仁，請內政部部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長好。今天行政區域劃分法，籌劃區域劃分的意義，我看今天很多委員都針對區域，因為我們的區域真的有點混亂，所以107年行政院也有提出區劃法，但是過去幾年大家的共識還不夠，今天我看召委又排行政區劃法，但是行政區劃法要實施之前，應該是地方政府要先去統籌，因為有很多區域，像召委所說的迴龍，這個地方以前在臺北縣，現在是新北市，都被列為三不管地帶，但是它鄰接兩個直轄市──桃園跟新北，還是要地方去統籌好，辦公聽會，再送到中央來制定，要不然制定了，如果縣市不配合，那也沒辦法實施。在新北市存在很多這種情況，部長，你知道我們板橋溪崑嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，剛才委員有提到。"],["吳委員琪銘：浮洲橋跨𧻗大漢溪，一邊是板橋，一邊全部是樹林，未來有很多區域都要納入討論；包含三峽，像北大一半是樹林、一半是三峽，所以我認為不是只有中央來開會，應該是從地方、縣市、鄉鎮區來做一個統籌，看怎樣來做。畢竟有兩個直轄市，也要取得兩個直轄市的共識，你才有辦法來推動啊！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：不能像財劃法，財劃法中央制定，地方上沒辦法成共識，那你又會面臨像財劃法一樣，是不是這樣？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：是，感謝委員對地方的關心，事實上我們現在碰到的一個困擾就是，它有分成中央的層級跟地方的層級，在地方的層級，有些是地方、縣市自己內部，譬如區跟區要不要整併，或者鄉鎮跟鄉鎮要不要整併，或者是鄰里要不要分開或調整，這個部分是地方制度牽涉的面向比較廣；另外一個就是跨縣市，跨縣市還有跨直轄市或跨非直轄縣市的問題；還有一個是整個大區域，就好像有人也在提倡全臺灣是不是只要分成四區就好了，北北基桃一大區，這都會牽涉到非常多的部分，不是只有人口、面積跟土地，還有資源要不要重新分配。我想民意代表站在民意的立場，一定會爭取最好的方式，但是每個人都爭取最好的方式的話，那比較不好的就會不被爭取，在這樣的狀況之下，我們如果再加入一個公民複決或是公民投票的方式的話，會加深城鄉差距或資源分配上不公平的地方。","我們剛剛有特別提到，如果要切除掉這些爭議性非常大的，只剩下一個程序法，就是制定遊戲規則到底夠不夠，目前看起來，有些學者認為這樣是不夠的，也就是我們把全臺灣小到村里、大到直轄縣市要不要合併的部分，都放到一個行政區劃的程序法裡面，恐怕會治絲益棼。所以為什麼6次推動，不管是屆期不續審，或是當時有些滾動式的縣市合併問題，都沒有辦法整併得非常好。譬如我現在看到新北市是直接升格，桃園也是直接升格，臺中縣市是合併升格，高雄縣市是合併升格，臺南縣市是合併升格，它牽涉的程序是縣市跟市，看起來好像只要縣市政府跟縣市議會同意，報到行政院，大概都不會有太大的困擾。但是現在如果中央要長臂管轄到區、里、村的話，就會太複雜，因為全臺灣七、八千個里，用一個行政區劃法不可能處理到這個部分。所以我們才會說茲事體大，不是不願意解決，而是如何找到一個大家都可以接受的方式，要凝聚共識。那我們是不是有跟地方政府來討論過？有，但是地方政府也隨著首長不同又有不同的看法，議會也一樣，議會4年一屆，4年一位不一樣的議長，說出來的理由也不太一樣，所以這就是很困擾的地方。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，所以我才說拜託部長，因為這一定要地方政府跟地方政府大家先去協調好，然後區也要去規劃好，這樣我們才能整個……不然你中央答應了，就像財劃法，那地方上又有非常多的聲音，這樣我們在這裡要……因為區劃法未來的規劃是牽扯好幾十年的事……"],["劉部長世芳：是，可能劃下去就不會再改變了。"],["吳委員琪銘：你當部長，我們當民意代表，未來都要承受，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：還是要謹慎，要有很完整的規劃，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員，你提供了兩個很好的例子，所以各區裡面也都有行政區調整的問題。但我還是要再次強調，沒有遊戲規則就沒辦法討論，因為大家現在遇到這個事，第一時間就說現在沒有法源依據，所以就沒討論，我是覺得這真的是比較可惜，所以遊戲規則、遊戲規則，我們反覆強調。","下一位我們請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":14.011,"end":40.512,"text":"主委你好部長好我想今天我們討論的是行政區劃法的部分其實這個內政部在民國80年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作那到了106年當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統在年終記者會議均衡台灣為題宣誓將啟動研議台灣行政區的重劃那在107年的5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案"},{"start":41.332,"end":61.837,"text":"那我想不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併其實都需要有完整的法源依據才能避免爭端那當然我們今天在討論兩個版本之前我們可以先回顧到四年前在2021年的時候時任新竹市長林志堅他拋出竹竹餅那當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張"},{"start":64.358,"end":93.067,"text":"猪猪喵合并那人口数就可以达到升格为直辖式的门槛但也牵扯出县市合并缺乏法源基础当然当时民进党为了猪猪并有强推地方制度法的修法并以禁服二读的方式闯关当然最后在国民党的强力杯葛之下修法到目前并没有通过那请问部长县市合并应该是要由上而下还是由下而上来整合推动"},{"start":93.772,"end":120.022,"text":"報告委員現在兩種這個方式都可以但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動因為還是要有綜合地方的民意所以由下而上來推動的話我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們的這個公民行政的方向我想不管由上而下由下而上其實最重要就是要有明確的法源才能避免過去因人涉事的一個爭議那請問部長"},{"start":121.983,"end":127.557,"text":"內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作"},{"start":128.537,"end":150.409,"text":"報告委員我們在那個113年的9月的時候呢當時就是前任的這個內政部長有提到說是不是我們用行政區劃的程序法的方式來推動那但是呢因為我們在要推動到行政院去參考的過程當中呢很多專家學者會覺得說光就行政區劃的這樣的遊戲規則推動的時候呢你如果沒有去把這個實質法"},{"start":156.132,"end":176.945,"text":"包括財政的部分所以那支部有規劃提出嗎目前我們是有一個送到這個行政院的一個審查當中是109年送上去叫行政區劃程序法109年送上去那今年是114年了就是5年前送上去對 但是剛剛有跟委員提到就是行政院在111年有審查之後有提出四個這個原則的疑義我剛在這個書面報告還有這個口頭報告都提到了"},{"start":183.869,"end":198.77,"text":"就是跟地方制度的借鉴的问题还有公民投票的问题对 请部长针对不管是行政区划法还是行政区划法的这个程序法的草案也希望尽快能够不能像一拖了五年然后完全都没有下文是 我们会来努力谢谢部长"},{"start":199.27,"end":213.892,"text":"那另外想請教部長就是在2008年11月的時候時任民進黨的主席蔡英文在民進黨執政時會能修正集會遊行法來道歉那集會遊行法的第六條規定禁制區"},{"start":215.213,"end":237.682,"text":"就是如果集會遊行的話需經政府同意並在第六條規定禁制區針對極有法的爭議大法官釋字第718號也有指出緊急集會無需許可那部長你說要將4月17號到台北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦請問你移送我了嗎"},{"start":239.002,"end":261.557,"text":"報告委員我剛所說的部分就是說在我們的集會遊行法的規定裡面我們會按照規定來處理如果必要的話就是移送法辦但是移送法辦的過程當中還有包括我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁他們在收證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據所以我們現在就是依照我給你看我在現場"},{"start":263.578,"end":290.31,"text":"我刚有跟委员报告过就是说我们移送的过程当中我们是尊重警政署的意见过去八年我想民进党执政的时候都认为这个民进党之前主张极有法是恶法结果现在民进党执政的时候却用这个来打压异己那按照部长的标准您可以看一下在2008年我刚刚有讲过了时任立委的赖清德总统担任民进党"},{"start":291.01,"end":316.563,"text":"的幹事長提出集會遊行的修法那要將許可制改為報備職而且取消集遊管制區並刪除主管機關的命令集會遊行的一個權利那甚至在2008年的這個雲林地檢署這個有關蘇志芬的社會案當時呢我們的民進黨的立委柯建民也有號召群眾包圍地檢署另外呢在去年的這個"},{"start":319.124,"end":328.891,"text":"二次年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院當時的柯建民總召有在現場蠱惑甚至鍾嘉斌也有移除柵欄揮手衝進青鳥這個闖立院那請問當時有移送法辦嗎"},{"start":338.425,"end":357.34,"text":"當時部長你有主張要向這些人移送法班嗎?報告委員那個立法院是不是集會遊行的地方立法院是可以這樣子的嗎?立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎?是可以這樣子的方式嗎?就我所了解立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎?可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎?"},{"start":362.148,"end":388.037,"text":"我們都依法行政我們當然鼓勵依法行政但是不能只是辦爛不爛的綠但是也要有事實的依據我們是依據事實來做任何集會遊行法的規定所以當時沒有嘛那我再請教一下部長您看一下4月19號的民進黨的遊行依照集遊法第四條的規定集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土那現場有人主張台獨算不算違反集遊法要不要全部移送法辦"},{"start":389.317,"end":416.845,"text":"這個我們會尊重這個警政署對於集會遊行法上面的事實依據來做是否移送的根據部長我要提醒你喔有時候不要對於民進黨有利的你們就堅持然後對於現在呢你們就是辦男不辦女所以希望集會遊行法如果過時了就應該要修正該修正就要修正所要要不要移送的部分的話是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定那部長你那時候在講說全數要移送是價值到齊嗎"},{"start":417.705,"end":444.38,"text":"沒有,我跟委員報告,我所說的部分,呃,我想,委員按照依法委員職權行使法,跟按照極有法,或是按照社會秩序維護法,各種不同的主法機關,我在行政系統,去干預司法,那尤其是我們在野黨,請你們一定要依法行政,不要辦案不辦理。是,我一定是依法行政,謝謝委員的指教。"},{"start":446.209,"end":447.824,"text":"好 謝謝徐益臻委員的指導"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時6分）謝謝主席，請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。我們今天討論的是行政區劃法的部分，其實內政部在民國81年就已經開始推動行政區劃法的工作，到了106年，當時擔任行政院長的賴清德總統，在年終記者會以均衡臺灣為題，宣示將啟動研議臺灣行政區的重劃，在107年5月的院會也通過行政區劃法的草案。部長，不管是縣市的合併或是行政區的整併，其實都需要有完整的法源依據，才能避免爭端。","今天在討論兩個版本之前，我們可以先回顧到4年前，在2021年時任新竹市長林智堅拋出「竹竹併」，當時新竹縣長楊文科則主張竹竹苗合併，人口數就可以達到升格為直轄市的門檻，但也牽扯出縣市合併缺乏法源基礎，當時民進黨為了「竹竹併」強推地方制度法的修法，並以逕付二讀的方式闖關，最後在國民黨的強力杯葛之下修法到目前並沒有通過。請問部長，縣市合併應該是要由上而下，還是由下而上來整合推動？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在兩種方式都可以，但是目前行政院幾乎沒有由上而下這樣推動，因為還是要綜合地方的民意，所以由下而上來推動的話，我覺得這樣子的方向可能比較符合目前我們公民行政的方向。"],["許委員宇甄：不管由上而下或由下而上，其實最重要是要有明確的法源，才能避免過去因人設事的爭議。請問部長，內政部現在有沒有規劃出行政區劃法草案或者行政區劃程序法草案的工作？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在113年9月當時的前任內政部長有提到，是不是用行政區劃程序法的方式來推動？但是我們在推動並送到行政院參考的過程當中，很多專家及學者覺得光就行政區劃的這樣遊戲規則推動的時候，如果沒有把實質法，包括財政的部分，或是包括其他……"],["許委員宇甄：內政部有提出規劃嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們有一部行政區劃程序法在109年已經送到行政院，目前在審查當中……"],["許委員宇甄：109年就送去，今年是114年，也就是5年前送去。"],["劉部長世芳：剛剛有跟委員提到，行政院在111年審查後，有提出4個原則的疑義，我剛剛在書面報告，還有口頭報告都有提到，就是跟地方制度介接的問題、授權的問題，還有公民投票的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：請部長針對不管是行政區劃法，還是行政區劃程序法的草案希望能夠儘快辦理，不能一拖了5年，然後完全都沒有下文。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們會再努力。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝部長。另外，請教部長，在2008年11月民進黨執政時，時任民進黨的黨主席蔡英文針對未能修正集會遊行法來道歉，集會遊行法第六條規定禁制區，集會遊行須經政府同意，並在第六條規定禁制區。針對集遊法的爭議，大法官釋字第718號也指出緊急集會無須許可，部長，你說要將4月17號到臺北地檢署抗議司法不公的所有人都移送法辦？請問你移送我了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛所說的就是我們會按照集會遊行法的規定來處理，如果必要的話，就是移送法辦，但是移送法辦要看我們第一線非常辛苦的警政同仁，他們在蒐證的過程當中是否有提出事實的依據，所以我們現在就是依照臺北市……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你移送我了嗎？我給你看，我在現場，你移送我了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛有跟委員報告過，就是我們移送的過程當中，我們是尊重警政署的意見。"],["許委員宇甄：民進黨之前都主張集遊法是惡法，結果民進黨執政以後卻用這個來打壓異己。按照部長的標準，您可以看一下，我剛剛有講過了，2008年時任立委的賴清德總統擔任民進黨的幹事長，提出集會遊行法修法，要將許可制改為報備制，而且取消集遊管制區，並刪除主管機關命令集會遊行的權力；甚至在2008年雲林地檢署，有關蘇治芬的涉賄案，當時民進黨立委柯建銘也號召群眾包圍地檢署；另外去年2024年12月20號青鳥包圍立法院，當時的柯建銘總召有在現場蠱惑，鍾佳濱甚至移除柵欄，揮手青鳥闖立院，請問當時有移送法辦嗎？當時部長您有主張要將這些人移送法辦嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，立法院是不是集會遊行……"],["許委員宇甄：立法院是可以這樣子的嗎？立法院是可以衝撞進來的嗎？是可以用這樣的方式讓青鳥進來的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：就我所了解，立法院現在不是集會遊行的禁制區。"],["許委員宇甄：所以部長是鼓勵可以這樣衝撞進來嗎？可以用這樣的方式推倒柵欄嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都依法行政。"],["許委員宇甄：我們當然鼓勵依法行政，但是不能只辦藍不辦綠。"],["劉部長世芳：但是也要有事實的依據，我們是依據事實來執行任何集會遊行法的規定。"],["許委員宇甄：所以當時沒有嘛。好，那我再請教一下部長，您看一下4月19號的民進黨遊行，依照集遊法第四條的規定，集會遊行不得主張共產主義或分裂國土，那現場有人主張臺獨算不算違反集遊法？要不要全部移送法辦？"],["劉部長世芳：這個我們會尊重警政署對於集會遊行法上的事實依據來做是否移送的根據。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我要提醒你，有時候不要對於民進黨有利的，你們就堅持，現在你們就是辦藍不辦綠。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都非常中立。"],["許委員宇甄：所以集會遊行法如果過時了，就應該要修正。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我特別提到要不要移送，是我們的警政同仁按照集會遊行法的相關規定……"],["許委員宇甄：那部長你那時候說全數要移送，是下指導棋嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我跟委員報告，我所說的部分……"],["許委員宇甄：那要不要就移送我吧！我告訴你了我在場，我在場，你可以移送。"],["劉部長世芳：委員按照立法委員職權行使法跟按照集遊法或按照社會秩序維護法，各有不同的主管機關……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，不要把司法還有你們的行政公權力……"],["劉部長世芳：我在行政系統，不敢干預司法。"],["許委員宇甄：當作你們的工具來欺壓異己，尤其是我們在野黨，請你們一定要依法行政，不要辦藍不辦綠，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我一定依法行政，謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","下一位請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們先請部長"},{"start":8.297,"end":36.266,"text":"劉部長有請部長想先跟您請教上禮拜國民黨的黨主席朱立倫率領國民黨的立委跟議員到了集會遊行的禁制區去抗議那我不知道說當然部長非常有魄力第一時間就是有用這個急優法說如果都有進到禁制區包括朱立倫主席謝龍介以及他們的發言人楊志宇等等要直接移送法辦"},{"start":36.986,"end":39.969,"text":"那我想問喔 因為其實在場還有其他的人 包括徐巧欣等等 他們把這個鐵馬護欄都推倒了那請問這樣有違反什麼樣的法律嗎報告委員 這樣的部分的話 我們請這個警政同仁在現場 因為他們有收證我們根據收證的事實的話呢 就按照相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":59.227,"end":83.678,"text":"那當然您剛所提到的部分就是說因為他們在到這個北檢前面去做抗議的時候呢本來就是由國民黨的黨主席發動的那再來就是他的發言人也在現場所以我們台北市警局在回應台北市議會的很多質詢的時候有特別提到這三位可能把它列為是守謀或者是他的發起活動的代言人"},{"start":84.918,"end":98.003,"text":"好 謝謝部長說明那當然如果有違反這個社委法或是其他違反極有法的人士我也都希望這個警政署可以依法來辦理那我也要在這邊要聲援當天包括四茶貓到現場可是其實警察在現場並沒有去協助維持民眾的人身安全那甚至他被暴力對待被用瓶子這樣子丟然後甚至是被打"},{"start":112.048,"end":126.499,"text":"都沒有警察出手相助那這個畫面也看得非常多民眾覺得很心疼就是你一個集會最重要的警察在現場最重要工作就是維持所有民眾的人身安全不要讓這樣的衝突加劇可是我看到的是警察在現場放任這樣的行為不斷的發生甚至讓民眾的情緒越來越高漲"},{"start":135.245,"end":154.776,"text":"最後這個暴民衝上去然後攻擊一個無辜的民眾那我不希望接下來還有這樣的事情發生所以我要在這邊拜託部長拜託警政署接下來一定要務必讓所有的民眾都是安全的好嗎是 報告委員這件事情包括您在內有多位委員來質詢所以我們有從旁來協助這位網紅他如果有需要提告的話那我們按照相關規定來辦理"},{"start":163.061,"end":181.341,"text":"好謝謝部長說明那再來進到今天這個行政區劃法這行政區劃法我大致看了一下其實覺得牽涉的層面真的非常廣非常非常的複雜包括剛剛其實博弈委員提到你光是一個行政區你前面他的行政區改了一個名字就例如說啦"},{"start":182.822,"end":203.847,"text":"萬華區改中正區中正區改萬華區就好了哇這個地價房價可能就差很多然後再來如果你改了一個住址下去可能你的身份證要改你的交通的節點所有的資訊全部都要改所有的資料這裡的路名什麼的全部都要改那這個可能都是"},{"start":204.967,"end":222.329,"text":"這是幾大的事情一改下去大家都要重新的調整那這個也需要非常大的一筆經費那再來就是如果到時候選區重新劃分然後土地面積人口都有重新切割的話那可能在座的民代可能席次也會受影響"},{"start":222.91,"end":236.52,"text":"立委啦議員啦然後包括當地的村里長等等是不是之後的席次也都要重新調整這個也必須要來考慮那再來我覺得最重要的還是如果接下來包括其實剛剛我們主席有提到的這個回籠到底要不要併台北的問題這個其實應該也要跟我們地方縣政府討論過吧那剛剛我不知道部長是說前年的時候是已經都有跟各縣市政府討論過一輪了是嗎"},{"start":252.961,"end":277.351,"text":"好基本上是討論制度上的問題而不是個案的討論OK所以就是還沒有進到說要意願要或不要而是說這個授權到底要不要給出去是這樣子嗎是基本上的討論還是在制度上的討論對那我好奇的是說那大家有沒有共識覺得說要不要先把這個程序法的授權先給出來"},{"start":279.093,"end":293.784,"text":"到底誰來決定然後要不要開始進行這個討論了大家各縣市現在的共識如何我還蠻好奇的就是大家如果有共識那我們來討論我覺得都很正面看待可是我不知道現在各縣市的態度到底如何"},{"start":294.164,"end":308.492,"text":"因為像我自己在高雄市我也還不知道說我們高雄市其實包括我們市長或是其他的其他的立委的意見議員的意見然後里長大家的意見如何這個是不是還需要再收攏還是說你們其實有共識"},{"start":310.677,"end":333.321,"text":"在一般各種不同區域的調整的這個部分包含這個不同跨縣市之間的或直轄市的改制當然有很多不同的意見那事實上在地方制度法裡面是有規定說直轄市改制之後的區域必須做一些調整剛剛也有一些委員有提到"},{"start":333.801,"end":349.751,"text":"但是因為這個整個的調整的一個範圍包含小到區大到可能跨這個縣市之下等等有涉及到不同的一個法律的層面所以討論商要收攏的確要花一些時間來做討論"},{"start":351.308,"end":380.928,"text":"好謝謝對啊因為聽起來真的是牽涉層面太廣了所以我剛剛光是我提的這幾個問題接下來如果要討論可能一項一項都要來細緻的討論那當然我覺得在此之前可以先做的是資源的分配啦因為這個行政區劃法很多縣市的目的也都是希望說接下來的生活圈可以讓同一個生活圈可以一致然後使用同樣的資源大家的資源分配下去是平均的但是我認為在此之前其實才劃法就可以做啦"},{"start":381.468,"end":389.43,"text":"那只是因為現在新的財劃法上路之後我不知道說財劃法上路之後會不會跟這個行政區劃法接下來有漢格或是衝突的地方好 請財政部說明一下因為我乍看之下光是說因為原本有一個直轄市的分配額嘛那如果直轄市的分配額就例如說現在我一個非直轄市的一個區撥出去了"},{"start":407.284,"end":426.736,"text":"那會不會反而因為財劃法的關係讓新的行政區劃法被撥出去之後反而享受不到原本的資源我擔心的是這個是跟我們報告那行政區劃法的這個如果他的這個計劃施行之後那在這個財政收支劃分的部分必須要配合來做檢討"},{"start":429.712,"end":453.898,"text":"對所以因為我們才剛修完才化法那當然我沒有很認同原本的現在的版本只是說如果到時候我們要來處理行政區劃法才化法還要再重修對不對必須要重新再檢討調整是的所以其實我看下去有非常多部法律必須要同時重新討論包括地方制度法跟我們行政區劃法到底有沒有衝突的地方然後包括才化法"},{"start":454.338,"end":477.197,"text":"是不是也要搭配着调整那这是一个非常大非常多部法律必须要同时来检讨的一件事情所以我希望如果接下来要讨论可以那是不是也可以委请交委再多办几场公听会然后我们再把地方县市都邀来大家再把一件事情一件事情细细的讨论之后那寻求一个共识再上路"},{"start":478.988,"end":488.501,"text":"好那這個就是相信大家應該都希望可以朝這個方向啦那希望這個部長接下來也持續的收攏地方的意見好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我們先請部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長，想先跟您請教，上禮拜國民黨黨主席朱立倫率領國民黨的立委跟議員到了集會遊行的禁制區去抗議，當然部長非常有魄力，第一時間就是用集遊法說，如果有進到禁制區，包括朱立倫主席、謝龍介以及他們的發言人楊智伃等等要直接移送法辦，那我想問，因為其實在場還有其他人包括徐巧芯等等，他們把鐵馬護欄都推倒了，請問這樣有違反什麼樣的法律嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，關於這個部分，因為我們警政同仁在現場有蒐證，我們根據蒐證的事實，就按照相關的規定來辦理。至於您剛剛所提到的部分，因為他們到北檢前面去做抗議的時候，本來是由國民黨黨主席發動的，再來就是他的發言人也在現場，所以臺北市警局在回應臺北市議會的很多質詢的時候有特別提到這3位，可能把他列為首謀，或者他是發起活動的代言人。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明。當然如果有違反社維法，或是其他違反集遊法的人士，我也都希望警政署可以依法來辦理。我也要在這邊聲援當天包括四叉貓到現場，可是其實警察在現場並沒有去協助維持民眾的人身安全，甚至他被暴力對待，被用瓶子這樣子丟，甚至是被打，都沒有警察出手相助，看到這個畫面，非常多民眾都覺得很心疼。一個集會，警察在現場最重要的工作就是維持所有民眾的人身安全，不要讓這樣的衝突加劇，可是我看到的是警察在現場放任這樣的行為不斷地發生，甚至讓民眾的情緒越來越高漲，最後這個暴民衝上去，攻擊一個無辜的民眾，我不希望接下來還有這樣的事情發生，所以在這邊要拜託部長、拜託警政署，接下來務必要讓所有的民眾都是安全的，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，包括您在內，已經有多位委員質詢這件事情，我們有從旁來協助這位網紅，如果他有需要提告，我們會按照相關規定來辦理。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長說明。再來進入到行政區劃法草案，我大致看了一下這個草案，我覺得牽涉的層面真的非常廣、非常的複雜，包括剛剛柏毅委員也提到，光是一個行政區要改名字，例如萬華區改中正區、中正區改萬華區就好了，哇！這個地價及房價可能就差很多，如果要改住址，可能你的身分證、交通的節點、所有的資訊全部都要改，所有的資料、路名什麼的全部都要改，這都是茲事體大的事情，一改下去，大家都要重新的調整，這也需要非常大的一筆經費；再來，如果到時候選區重新劃分，土地、面積、人口都有重新切割的話，可能在座的民代的席次也會受影響，包括立委、議員、當地的村里長等等，是不是之後的席次都要重新調整，這也必須要一起考慮。","再來，我覺得最重要的如果接下來，包括剛剛主席有提到的迴龍到底要不要併臺北的問題，也應該要跟我們地方縣市政府討論過吧！剛剛部長提到在前年的時候已經都有跟各縣市政府討論過一輪了，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我請司長說明。"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["鄭司長英弘：基本上，是討論制度上的問題，而不是個案的討論。"],["黃委員捷：OK！所以還沒有討論到意願，要或不要？而是這個授權到底要不要下放，是這樣子嗎？"],["鄭司長英弘：是，基本上，還是在制度上的討論，而不是個案的討論。"],["黃委員捷：對，我好奇的是大家有沒有共識？要不要先把程序法的授權先給出來？到底誰來決定？要不要開始進行這個討論？各縣市現在的共識為何？我還蠻好奇的，大家如果有共識，我們來討論，我是很正面看待，可是不知道現在各縣市的態度到底如何？因為像我自己在高雄市，也還不知道我們高雄市，包括市長或是其他的立委、議員及里長的意見，大家的意見如何？是不是還需要再收攏？還是你們其實已經有共識了？"],["鄭司長英弘：在調整一般各種不同區域的部分，包含跨不同縣市之間的或者直轄市的改制，有很多不同的意見；事實上，在地方制度法裡是有規定直轄市改制之後的區，必須做一些調整，剛剛有一些委員有提到，因為整個調整的範圍，包含小到區，大到可能跨……"],["黃委員捷：跨縣市的。"],["鄭司長英弘：跨縣市、直轄市等等，有涉及到不同的法律層面，所以要收攏意見的確要花一些時間做討論。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。對啊！因為聽起來真的是牽涉層面太廣了，所以光是我剛剛提的這幾個問題，接下來如果要討論，可能一項一項都要細緻地討論；在此之前可以先做的是資源的分配，因為行政區劃法在很多縣市的目的也都是希望可以讓同一個生活圈可以一致，並使用同樣的資源，大家的資源分配下去是平均的，但是我認為在此之前，其實財劃法就可以做啦！只是因為現在新的財劃法上路之後，我不知道會不會跟行政區劃法有扞格或是衝突的地方？"],["劉部長世芳：請財政部說明。"],["黃委員捷：好，請財政部說明一下。我乍看之下，因為原本有一個直轄市的分配額，如果直轄市的分配額……例如現在一個非直轄市的一個區撥出去了，會不會因為財劃法的關係，讓新的行政區劃法被撥出去後，反而享受不到原本的資源？我擔心的是這個。"],["林副署長秀燕：跟委員報告，如果行政區劃法的計畫施行之後，在財政收支劃分的部分必須要配合做檢討。"],["黃委員捷：對，我們才剛修完財劃法，當然我沒有很認同現在的版本，只是如果到時候我們要來處理行政區劃法，財劃法還要再重修，對不對？"],["林副署長秀燕：必須要重新再檢討調整。"],["黃委員捷：是的，我看有非常多部法律都必須要同時重新討論，包括地方制度法跟行政區劃法到底有沒有衝突的地方？財劃法是不是也要搭配著調整？這是一個非常大、非常多部法律必須要同時來檢討的一件事情，所以我希望如果接下來要討論，「可以」，是不是也可以委請召委多辦幾場公聽會，再把地方縣市都邀來，大家再把一件一件事情細細的討論後，尋求一個共識然後再上路？好，相信大家應該都希望可以朝這個方向，也希望部長接下來持續的收攏地方的意見。"],["劉部長世芳：好的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","跟委員會報告，安排公聽會當然沒有問題，但是現在大家的討論到目前為止，不可能在一部法律裡涉及實質的東西，先要有遊戲規則，像如果我們跟地方縣市政府討論，現在的狀況是連遊戲規則都沒有，要怎麼討論？所以實質的東西並不會有任何的進展，我們希望透過法案的審查、詢答、公聽會等等，儘速的把遊戲規則催生出來，以利討論，以上跟大家補充說明。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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補償在這裡喔 在上禮拜 妳好 在上禮拜我們知道說 貴重的責任 去一個不應該自治的地方又有地方收到 去高興 但是我認為說補償做得很好"},{"start":29.503,"end":32.506,"text":"你剛才說全部都是寒鬆的,不然在那裡擁護你,在那裡玩多久我覺得對你會越大,會越來越多因為我覺得一個地方,你要集會遊行或要做什麼,應該都要去申請"},{"start":53.388,"end":62.618,"text":"國家有國家的法規啦 我覺得最近這半天來 我覺得大家想不去帶就不去帶像地檢署看了一輩子 還來 還派你們大小所以普天 我覺得說 你的"},{"start":72.529,"end":77.09,"text":"做法我認為非常好,可以讓你更加健康所以在定禮拜拜時的時候,你的做法,我認為利用全部寒鬆的不過我的感覺是,你對於定禮拜時這樣做"},{"start":92.415,"end":96.799,"text":"但是在這半年來 也有這樣的綜合 你是如何沒有看出這個全部來寒鬆來 補充你會的事情感謝委員的指導 我相信站在內政部的立場 就是支持我們的經濟事務他們針對這個一契遊行法裡面 會相關規定來辦理"},{"start":115.658,"end":120.761,"text":"所以我今天也有針對這個部分就是說我們經濟署的經濟動力尤其在處理這種聚眾的部分他們要有那個修正有確實然後把所有的證據都收集齊全之後應該函送的或者應該傳喚的就按照集會遊行法的相關規定來辦理但是呢因為我站在一個這個就是"},{"start":142.851,"end":148.076,"text":"督導那個警政的立場上面呢我就不針對個案來繼續發言因為他現在已經進入偵查的程序所以我覺得這樣子會比較好那過去好幾年當中呢我們在有關集會遊行的部分呢都有特別討論到禁制區"},{"start":158.924,"end":179.46,"text":"這個禁制區除了說譬如說是我們的這個中央政府所在地的要塞之外那還有軍事要塞那同時呢我們希望增加的像包括像這個這個法院或者是這個醫院因為醫院有很多這種聚眾滋擾的事件我們認為的不適合因為醫院是一個看病的地方不是來吵架的地方"},{"start":180.2,"end":209.179,"text":"那希望在禁制區裡面大家都能夠遵守那這個有遵守的話大家有這個遵守的規範的話呢那警方是站在雙方能夠平和來處理有關任何的爭議事件呢這是我們的初衷而不是為了要傳喚某人或是為了要做這個政治性上面的一個宣示我想這個都不是集會遊行法希望大家能夠本於原來的初衷把自己要表達的立場講得非常清楚之後但是就是要遵守集會遊行的規則"},{"start":210.18,"end":215.926,"text":"因為保證在這裏 我覺得很好笑啦 一個收到沒去收這個款 又揮揮三尺沒這樣 給北省看出他的做法 我覺得他的年紀 實在很差勁"},{"start":231.983,"end":236.147,"text":"所以在國家有國家的法律所以一定要有法律的人要讓他知道有法律的問題所以在這個規定當中我也覺得補充這個處理方法我覺得可以更多"},{"start":251.175,"end":256.619,"text":"會比較好 不會對你說話會越來越嚴重 我覺得一個社會一直對你如果我們不講道理 互翻互補的時候 這個國家會害來 普通 剛才你說到 我們的行政化分化 你們一定"},{"start":272.557,"end":276.179,"text":"日本的經濟嘛,在過去以來有八十一年到現在,尤其我們的大中共,也希望可以有這個做法,但是裡面的做法,有人提案"},{"start":288.365,"end":291.066,"text":"裡面有稍微不講,稍微不講的時候,也要問補充,以我自己來講,我自己,我也不問我的資源,我的零考數,我的生活圈,我自己,如果說,我們一張臉"},{"start":309.636,"end":316.341,"text":"追尋是不是可以未來加二次民用是不是可以未來加二次我也愿意這樣因為加二次在幾十年前跟新疆爬爬升級要不然我們中央的政府跟我們說你升級要不然在這裡你看不是跟法輪功升級就好了"},{"start":336.255,"end":340.078,"text":"是長久以來 要怎麼阻止他 你看他年紀和身體又有差喔再來這個過程中 你的行政會看文化 也會牽涉到"},{"start":356.937,"end":364.3,"text":"財政手法,這是都一樣在這裡的做法本身是要跟你說,這是非常大件事,不是說啊,青菜蓋蓋就好了每一項都要去了解去做,尤其是你認為本身說這樣"},{"start":380.514,"end":394.819,"text":"如果問政府的時候,他不要說道啦,我自己買那些零銷售,可以主管那些,跟財政可以再分那些的時候,是不是可以來補充,你回答一下感謝委員的關心,委員本來就是自己非常認真發表的民意代表我也要向委員報告,行政區劃法,我們是希望可以可長可久啦"},{"start":408.965,"end":413.187,"text":"不是因為今天這個地方有一個栗多,我每天都擠一擠在那裡,有栗差的話,大家都趕快遠離所以為什麼會碰到這個困難,就是說大家都想要好的,肥肉的部分,骨頭的部分,肌肉的部分就丟給別人"},{"start":428.257,"end":445.952,"text":"但是呢 又希望好的部分留下來 譬如說我剛剛有提到我們不管是地方制度 或者是行政區的話在處理縣市合併的時候 大家都希望好的合併那上一次有人在提到 譬如說這個某一個縣市就是有很多科學園區的地方 要不要合併這最重要 現在科學園區的地方 大家都不會走出來"},{"start":450.776,"end":471.262,"text":"對 但是這個部分跟行政區化的這個規劃比較沒有相關可是科學園區是會改變的所以我們很希望說它是大家一起來討論就是說這個公平的一個遊戲規則怎麼樣制定出來那可以看得出來在都會區的民意代表跟在非都會區的民意代表的想像是不一樣的"},{"start":472.862,"end":476.563,"text":"或者是說我剛剛所提的你剛才有說到的財政收支的微分的部分大家都希望說不好的先維持下去但是錢要留下來這個部分財政收支劃分法如果針對我們行政區劃的處理的話它一定會有不同的想像"},{"start":489.788,"end":516.674,"text":"我們當然尊重以財政部為主的部分那再來地方制度就是剛剛所提的一般來講如果縣市要合併是地方縣市政府跟地方縣市議會兩個通過他們內部的一個程序如果同意以後可以報中央或是中央可以直接指定但是中央到目前為止通常沒有會直接指定因為這樣子不好沒有這個尊重民意但是地方要上來的時候呢這個四個地方縣市政府跟縣市議會意見就不一樣"},{"start":519.375,"end":533.512,"text":"如果四個地方的縣市的意見不一樣因為通常大的一定會零價小的多的一定會零價少的少的不同意多的一定同意然後小的不同意大的一定同意之類的"},{"start":534.753,"end":555.318,"text":"那這個我們就很難做決定所以通常都會卡住那這個跟這個不管是人的關係或者是生活圈的概念或者是財政的概念呢其實它是一個比較複雜的機制啦但是到目前為止呢雖然很多不管是在朝或在野的很多立委都提出來這樣子的一個爭議但是這個爭議呢對行政機關來講要把它收攏或者是一個有凝聚這個共識確實不容易"},{"start":562.219,"end":574.645,"text":"就好像說前兩年我們提出說行政區劃法乾脆就改成行政區劃程序法其實還沒有送到行政院就有人反對了所以我們也會碰到這方面的困擾柏庭在這本縣要跟你說很艱苦的事情我們也要去做在這個你剛才說的跟本縣所想的都一樣我們勿忙"},{"start":583.909,"end":588.45,"text":"花粉期的電池是更加發展、更加好、資源更加多不是花粉期的時候變成越增加越少、越沒有資源所以我們在這個花粉的時候,也非常重要我們希望中央把電池用心用好,是要讓電池沒有發展的"},{"start":610.276,"end":613.358,"text":"可以越發展 交通越方便啦不要為了說 跟越沒人愛 比不愛 同樣的議員在這裡跟吃肉的都被撞到那裡去 這樣也不好 所以我問補充 能不能說 本身自己探討的問題未來我們要怎麼做的時候 一定要哪裏 能夠合平均的啦 不能差太多啦 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謝謝主席啊 劉思峰部長有請"},{"start":12.506,"end":40.079,"text":"好 謝謝根據我們憲法108條一項二款規定行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之或交由省縣執行之然而現行行政區域的新設廢址或調整除村里林的編組跟調整或者是縣市合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定之外其他的各種行政區劃的調整基本上是沒有法源依據的那麼歷經時代更迭社會變遷人口流動產業結構"},{"start":42.761,"end":66.095,"text":"轉變區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多在台灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實急待調整去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢去提升地方治理的品質跟效能所以我想推動行政區劃法它是有迫切的需求而且必須要於法治化希望在接下來的討論之中可以有更多委員來繼續支持行政區劃法的討論這個是我就要問一下部長"},{"start":71.621,"end":77.095,"text":"這剛剛委員這個張宏祿召委講的很多都是很合理的就希望他有審慎的討論但這個劉部長你知不知道這個行政區他的討論從什麼時候就開始了"},{"start":82.757,"end":109.169,"text":"從民國八十一年到現在三十幾年啦有改變過但是改變的不多啦改變的不多嘛對不對碰到的困擾還不少碰到的困擾不少嘛對不對所以歷經了李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統等等好幾任分別都有不同的版本但每一次到最後都基本上就是不是卡在行政院沒有共識就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之"},{"start":109.309,"end":117.705,"text":"我們有六次的部分有六次的部分我想部長也很清楚那我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區的例據提出來的而是"},{"start":121.121,"end":139.064,"text":"而是我們現在總統當初的台南市長賴清德的心聲當初他在做台南市長的時候當然就談過財化法的問題他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候他有講這個財政收支劃分法地方制度法行政區劃法是均衡台灣發展重要的三法"},{"start":139.775,"end":164.43,"text":"要來做處理嘛所以也是在我們賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法的草案嘛那時候叫行政區劃程序法嘛那有這樣的一個草案也進到了這個內政委員會的一讀會但是後來就沒有然後了嘛那當然就因為隨著行政院長的換人隨著屆期的不連續這案子又再次的胎死腹中這本行是覺得非常非常可惜啦"},{"start":164.85,"end":177.317,"text":"那我想行政區號就如同我剛剛講的就現在啊你除了縣市合併而且不只是合併喔你還能夠升格你可以利用地方制度法之外其他有很多的調整他其實是沒有辦法來做處理的下一張再下一張這看過了"},{"start":181.345,"end":205.593,"text":"我就舉我自己選區的例子啊這我龜山的這個回籠地區啊這當初本席那時候在賴清德總統提出院辦草案的時候本席那時候在競選這個第一次競選桃園市議員啊我在我回籠地區我就講這個地方很有趣啊它轄區是我桃園的龜山但是跟新北新莊跟我們新北樹林交界我們回籠地區啊這個電化區嘛我們桃園是03開頭但回籠是02啊然後他們繳電費要到新莊繳水費要到樹林啊"},{"start":210.436,"end":213.934,"text":"這就是這邊的生活 基本上他的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的"},{"start":215.143,"end":244.282,"text":"所以也因為這樣他常常被桃園 自然而然他就是邊界的治理嘛他可能就變成末梢的地方那麼相對來講他得到的重視跟資源不管是藍綠執政都一樣他常常就是那個被遺忘的山不管地帶所以那時候我看到了中央當初有提行政區劃法的草案我覺得非常的高興啊所以我就在我們回鴻地區跟我們鄉親來講現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題我們應該做好準備大家未來這個你可以把你的心聲大聲的講出來"},{"start":245.403,"end":260.573,"text":"後來回籠鄉親也很期待啊也因為這樣給了我很多的支持可是很遺憾的是我當選的議員之後後來發現這個法案並沒有通過那這個鄉親的溯源他一直想要把心情講出來這樣子的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難啊這就是行政區沒有辦法有效的遊戲規則來做討論的一個問題啊"},{"start":264.355,"end":277.345,"text":"部長 像這樣子的問題你以你們現在行政院的統計你們過去其實也寫過草案像這樣子邊界三不管地帶然後可能有必要要透過行政區畫調整的方式全台灣一共有幾處 你們有沒有做過統計可以沒問題"},{"start":282.831,"end":303.397,"text":"事實上這個有關區界的一個劃分的部分如果有一些不明的現行大概就可以這個來做處理那是那個是那個是間界的問題土地間界要不一樣我想生活圈的調整歷來有關行政計劃法的討論大概沒有通過原因就是"},{"start":304.915,"end":326.754,"text":"各界對於行政規劃大概都有各種不同的一個想像事實上這個各種的討論實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理可能就很難來做執行所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政規劃程序法就提供一個行政規劃的遊戲規則"},{"start":330.7,"end":351.541,"text":"我要跟部長再補充啊 其實也不只是跨縣市的這樣子的一個區域的一個重整我桃園市裡面啊 兩個區之間 有那種地界很奇怪的 一樣生活圈不一樣的我哪怕是我桃園市裡面 區跟區之間 裡跟裡之間的調整他也都沒有辦法去處理 這個就是現在的問題 原因是什麼 我沒有法源依據嘛"},{"start":352.242,"end":366.549,"text":"譬如說我龜山的山德里其實有一塊它其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的但是一個畫區的時候畫畫在山德里面變得跟飛地一樣然後我曾經有跟桃園市議會質詢結果桃園市長說因為我們沒有一套"},{"start":367.469,"end":386.123,"text":"即便是我桃園市內部啊各區之間要做行政區的調整也沒有法源依據所以我講這些東西啊也許啊從全國宏觀的角度來看它可能只是一個很小的事情可是這對於在地的居民來講它是一件大事情所以我覺得剛剛我們市長有回答現在不管是成立院版的行政區劃法的行政區劃程序法"},{"start":388.365,"end":412.698,"text":"或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法它其實概念是一樣的也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則我很同意剛剛張宏祿召委講的你在做行政區劃的時候它會造成城鄉發展不均的問題啊它會造成地方的一些衝突所以每一個案子它都要經過充分討論這一點本席百分之百贊同但現在的問題不是沒有討論啦現在問題是連開始都不能開始因為你沒有任何的法源依據我現在請問部長"},{"start":414.279,"end":430.574,"text":"這個我看了你們的那個書面報告你們有寫113年啊這個最新你們委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院那以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後請問你們現在院版因為之前部長有講過嘛行政區法一定會有院版嘛對不對還是說現在不會有院版了部長"},{"start":434.188,"end":463.348,"text":"未來要有院版的話我們希望會有一個公聽的程序啦就是剛剛我有回答委員的問題啦第一個就是說我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法還是行政區劃的程序法那這兩個是完全不同的概念行政區劃的程序法的話就是我們就是像委員所說的很簡單的一句話就是我們把遊戲規則弄出來讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循那但是呢這個部分呢就是要公聽以後包括縣市政府願意同意這樣的方式我們才推出來"},{"start":463.948,"end":490.563,"text":"所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的上個會期跟上上個會期其實本期都有在不管是夜報或者是專報的時候都有去提到這個概念那當初大家的回答都一樣就是一定會有院版但是你們要有點時間去整理我說OK你有時間去研究然後讓它推出來完整我是OK的但我想知道你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後送進來的東西跟你當初啊賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候當初推出來的草案版本現在會不會有差別市長"},{"start":493.996,"end":514.686,"text":"基本上行政院針對跟地方制度法的界階的問題還有公投然後它是不是屬於行政處分它這個有關決定機關決定之後的效果等等大概法律上的這些問題還必須做深入的一個討論"},{"start":515.906,"end":529.463,"text":"還要討論 那你們到底還要討論多久我今天就會幫我這些因為行政區化沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊那你們到底要討論多久內政部已經把相關的意見在去年送到行政院那這個部分行政院應該會去審來做處理"},{"start":532.365,"end":554.992,"text":"我要問時間啊部長有沒有時間表你們要不要稍微加大一下力度說這是很多委員關心的事情目前還沒有那我要講的部分就是說可能請委員把它區分開來如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題譬如說生活圈或者是居民的方便性那再來再次牽涉到說是屬於比較僵硬的制度就是說新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間那是實際溝通的問題嘛"},{"start":556.693,"end":582.838,"text":"就是程序上所以我們希望把程序定出來以後呢朝這方面但是呢我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候似乎有一些不管是委員也好還有學者專家覺得說這樣不行我們要把這個實質的部分要放進去所以就有人提到說那財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來那這樣子就越複雜所以到目前為止呢行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的包括桃園的龜山我現在講我現在剛剛跟你講你說"},{"start":584.838,"end":607.684,"text":"我們其實要的只是一個遊戲規則因為你每一個個案到最後的深水區一定是地方的討論嘛對不對你一定是地方討論包括縣市政府的討論公民的差異等等因為中央也有這種這個稅賦上面的部分要處理啊沒錯但你要遊戲規則嘛就是地方稅你要納到什麼地方啊然後切割出去以後這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起我們現在我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異其實概念上也是遊戲規則"},{"start":608.584,"end":622.995,"text":"我建議是有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好你實際上遇到狀況討論的時候因為到了最後決定的一定是地方地方政府的討論結果嘛跟中央的專家 中央也必須要表達意見啊我理解我理解但是所以因為這樣子所以你打算遊戲規則都不做"},{"start":623.715,"end":641.64,"text":"報告一下譬如說在委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們說我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市那請問這個是中央的議題還是地方的議題或者是說汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的那這些議題呢現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已嘛因為你連討論的平台跟遊戲規則跟法院依據都沒有嘛"},{"start":647.282,"end":670.319,"text":"所以都變成空談嘛我們現在至少要有一個法源依據它有機會可以執行你才能去思考說我到底要不要做這件事情對不對但是你不能因為說因為這個很複雜所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有那不就等於是倒閉問題嗎我剛有回答過委員的問題就是說我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這相關的議題把它釐清清楚並不是表示說很複雜就不解決很複雜還是需要解決對嘛我要聽的是這個啦"},{"start":671.98,"end":694.11,"text":"對那在這裡面所牽涉到的部分就是我剛剛所說的我們本來在那個109之後呢想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法讓它簡單一點我只提遊戲規則那當然委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票那另外一回事但是這個行政區劃的程序法在內部包括有一些這個學者跟專家他們就不同意他說你這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題所以我們變得又比較審慎要來重新評估也就是我們所說的在我們共識"},{"start":700.313,"end":715.26,"text":"共識不是法條共識都還沒有形成之前啊單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法不夠完全好譬如說我們如果把這個行政區劃法送出去以後我看財政部一定馬上問說那請問一下這個地方稅怎麼樣做區分那其他的縣市議會有些議會覺得說我這邊割一塊出去了我的議員的這個名額又不見了"},{"start":724.884,"end":748.019,"text":"所以又跟地方制度有關我本來是希望說如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下盡量去因為我們現在是台灣是一個民意非常發達的部分盡量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主但是呢這個又牽涉到說我不要減少我的利益我希望增加我的部分最後的結論一定是最後只有遊戲規則比較容易走啦"},{"start":752.182,"end":774.934,"text":"就是回到當初的曾經提出過的願板但是我們希望有共識才來推啦因為時間不夠了所以你現在打算要多多少時間之內你可以把剛剛張宏錄趙薇講的很好啊你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境你把資料提供給委員參考嘛這第一個第二個你們自己內政部會不會召開各縣市的這個協調會議啊或者是一個公聽會包含學者專家來你們會主動來辦嗎"},{"start":777.366,"end":803.232,"text":"我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過已經辦過了嘛可是我們希望說如果在立法院裡面有這樣的公聽程序的話可以再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會可以來表達他們的意見這樣子我們再收攏這些意見的話可能會更好所以你們112年已經做過座談嘛對不對113年研究案的資料已經回來那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考這是OK的吧"},{"start":804.421,"end":819.978,"text":"這個沒有問題對不對我們的委託研究嘛對 委託研究嘛 跟你那些困境你內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK你補充一些資料我們來安排公聽會 我認為都很好好 大家縣市政府再次來討論但是希望啊這是賴清德總統當做行政院長很重要的政見"},{"start":820.939,"end":842.132,"text":"不要這種跟民生生活有關的法案這種東西又被耽誤掉這本行是不接受的好不好我可以再等你一段時間等你的願板我都覺得是OK的但不能一等再等等到最後又變成屆期不連續那這樣對我的鄉親來講那就是很大的一個衝擊啦所以部長一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料我們來做後續的討論包含公聽會等等然後願板的時間表我們把它研擬出來這樣可以嗎"},{"start":846.94,"end":862.198,"text":"提供我們現在的資訊給那個委會各委員參考可以嗎我們看資料之後開公聽會到時候要請部長要配合應該沒有問題吧你們一定會配合嘛對不對也要跟縣市政府先講可能會有這樣一個事情可以嗎"},{"start":863.578,"end":889.974,"text":"那開完之後會不會院版會不會比較快一點公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話是由委員會發函我們可以排啊我在這邊公開的承諾你我可以排啊我們可以用這個這個委員會的時間我們來安排就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣這當然可以開好不好那我們希望開了之前大家的資料要充分對不對而且開要有意義啊你不能開完之後然後又不了了之了嘛對不對我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦"},{"start":890.534,"end":916.468,"text":"報告委員其實不是說開完之後不聊聊而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜然後沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決我一直在提醒的是這一點所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候就因為是這樣所以就不聊聊之了嗎藉其不續審也是一個原因啦到底是藉其不續審還是當初沒有公示啊因為他好像是第...對不起不然哪一年都提出來的對啊"},{"start":917.588,"end":924.253,"text":"107年提出來嘛然後109年之後就戒急不續審那到底是戒急不續審還是還是做不到"},{"start":925.677,"end":949.683,"text":"你就把話講清楚吧我無法回答你無法回答我現在沒這個資格那你覺得現在他當總統他還會不會想做這個事嗎我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區畫跟所有的生活圈的實質的部分呢充分配合然後讓所有的居民了解一下說行政區畫是在幫助他們做更好的生活的部分的建設尤其是公共建設的話大家都會樂觀其成啦對嘛你這個態度比較好報告委員"},{"start":951.664,"end":977.162,"text":"但是沒有共識齁倉促推出反而會是副作用很大我完全了解啊我們在這個地方質詢其實聽了就是個真相到底是因為沒有共識還是因為藉其不去去審因為沒有共識是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了就把他公開清楚講明白我覺得這樣子也沒有關係但是看起來我們需要多一點討論好那我們就趕快收集資料我們趕快來辦公廳會但我希望回到這法案的初衷可以解決人民生活的問題可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝羅許廷"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":280,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時23分）謝謝主席，劉世芳部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據憲法第一百零八條第一項第二款規定，行政區劃的事項應該由中央立法並執行之，或交由省縣執行之。然而現行行政區域的新設、廢止或調整，除村（里）、鄰的編組跟調整，或者是縣（市）合併升格直轄市等事項在地方制度法已有規定外，其他各種行政區劃的調整，基本上是沒有法源依據的。那麼歷經時代更迭、社會變遷、人口流動、產業結構轉變、區域發展等綜合因素形成的空間變遷其實有很多，在臺灣的各個角落有很多的行政區域其實亟待調整，去符合生活圈跟產業發展的趨勢，去提升地方治理的品質跟效能，所以我想推動行政區劃法是有迫切需求的，而且必須要予以法制化。希望在接下來的討論中，可以有更多的委員繼續支持行政區劃法的討論。","這個我就要問一下部長了，剛剛張宏陸召委講到的，很多都是很合理的，就是希望要審慎地討論，但劉部長你知不知道行政區劃的討論從什麼時候就開始了？"],["劉部長世芳：從民國81年到現在。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，從民國81年到現在，三十幾年了。"],["劉部長世芳：有改變過，但是改變的不多。"],["牛委員煦庭：改變的不多，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：表示碰到的困擾還不少。"],["牛委員煦庭：碰到的困擾不少，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以歷經了李登輝總統、陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統等等，好幾任，分別都有不同的版本，但每一次到了最後，基本上不是卡在行政院沒有共識，就是送進立法院之後因為屆期不連續而不了了之。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們六次都沒辦法處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：有六次的部分嘛，我想部長也很清楚。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得這件事情也不是哪一個個別的委員基於選區利益提出來的，而是我們現在的總統，當初的臺南市長賴清德的心聲，當初他在做臺南市長的時候就有談過財劃法的問題，他在做蔡英文總統手下的行政院長的時候，也有講財政收支劃分法、地方制度法、行政區劃法是均衡臺灣發展重要的三法，要來做處理。所以在賴清德總統當初擔任行政院長的時候，其實就有提出院版的行政區劃法草案，那時候叫行政區劃程序法，這樣的一個草案也進到了內政委員會一讀會，但是後來就沒有然後了，因為隨著行政院長換人，隨著屆期不連續，這個案子又再次地胎死腹中，本席是覺得非常非常可惜啦！我想行政區劃就如同我剛剛講的，現在除了縣市合併，而且不只是合併，還要能夠升格，可以利用地方制度法之外，其他有很多的調整其實是沒有辦法做處理的。","我就舉我自己選區的例子──龜山的迴龍地區，當初賴清德總統提出院版草案的時候，本席那時候第一次競選桃園市議員，我在迴龍地區就講了，這個地方很有趣，轄區是桃園的龜山，但是跟新北新莊跟新北樹林交界，電話區碼桃園是03開頭，但是迴龍是02，他們繳電費要到新莊，繳水費要到樹林，這就是那邊的生活。基本上它的生活圈其實跟新北市的距離是比較近的，也因為這樣，它常常被桃園認為……它自然而然就是當邊界來治理，它可能就變成末梢的地方，相對來講，它得到的重視跟資源，不管是藍、綠執政都一樣，它常常就是那個被遺忘的三不管地帶。所以那時候我看到了中央有提行政區劃法的草案，我覺得非常的高興，就跟我們迴龍地區的鄉親講：現在中央有打算要面對生活區調整的問題，我們應該做好準備，大家未來可以把你的心聲大聲地講出來。迴龍的鄉親也很期待，也因為這樣給了我很多的支持，可是很遺憾的是，我當選議員之後，我發現這個法案並沒有通過，這個是鄉親的宿願，他們一直想要把心情講出來，這樣的一個問題就遇到了重大的困難，這就是行政區沒有辦法有有效的遊戲規則來做討論的問題。部長，像這樣子的問題，以你們現在行政院的統計，你們過去其實也寫過草案，像這樣邊界、三不管地帶，可能有必要透過行政區劃調整的方式，全臺灣一共有幾處，你們有沒有做過統計？"],["劉部長世芳：請司長來說明一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以，沒問題。"],["鄭司長英弘：事實上，有關區界劃分的部分，如果有一些不明的，現行大概就可以來做處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：那個只是鑑界的問題，土地鑑界不一樣，我講的是生活圈的調整而已。"],["鄭司長英弘：歷來有關行政區劃法的討論，沒有通過的原因大概就是各界對於行政區劃都有各種不同的想像。事實上，各種的討論、實際的討論放到法裡面來做處理，可能就很難來執行，所以內政部109年送到行政院的版本是行政區劃程序法，就提供一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：遊戲規則，對不對？"],["鄭司長英弘：是的，行政區劃的遊戲規則。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我要跟部長再補充，其實也不只是跨縣市的區域重整，桃園市裡面兩個區之間有那種地界很奇怪的，一樣的生活圈或不一樣的，哪怕是桃園市裡面區跟區之間、里跟里之間的調整，也都沒有辦法去處理，這個就是現在的問題，原因是什麼？沒有法源依據，比如說龜山的山德里有一塊其實離桃園的萬壽里比較近，然後那個中間其實是有建築做區隔的，但是因為劃區的時候劃在山德里，就變得跟飛地一樣。我曾經有在桃園市議會質詢，結果桃園市政府講因為我們沒有一套法源依據，所以即便是桃園市內部各區之間要做行政區的調整，也沒有法源依據。我講這些東西，也許從全國宏觀的角度來看，可能只是一個很小的事情，可是這對於在地的居民來講是一件大事情。所以剛剛司長有回答，現在不管是行政院版的行政區劃程序法，或者是本席這次提出的行政區劃法，其實概念是一樣的，也就是需要一個全國可以適用的遊戲規則。我很同意剛剛張宏陸召委講的，在做行政區劃的時候會不會造成城鄉發展不均的問題？會不會造成地方的衝突？所以每一個案子都要經過充分討論，這一點本席百分之百贊同，但現在的問題不是沒有討論，而是連開始都不能開始，因為你沒有任何的法源依據。","我請問部長，我看了你們的書面報告裡面有寫，113年你們最新委託出去的研究成果已經回到了行政院，以你們現在看完這些研究成果之後，請問你們院版……因為之前部長有講過行政區劃法一定會有院版，對不對？還是說現在不會有院版了？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：未來要有院版的話，我們希望有一個公聽的程序啦，剛剛我有回答委員的問題，第一個，我們現在到底要送的是行政區劃法，還是行政區劃的程序法，這兩個是完全不同的概念。行政區劃程序法的話，就是像委員所說的，很簡單的一句話，我們把遊戲規則弄出來……"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：讓中央跟地方政府有所遵循。但是，這個部分就是要公聽以後，包括縣市政府願意、同意用這樣的方式，我們才推出來，所以推出來這個部分本來就是我們必須要處理的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，上個會期跟上上會期，其實本席都有在不管業報或者是專報的時候去提到這個概念，當初大家的回答都一樣，就是一定會有院版，但是你們需要點時間去整理。我說OK，你有時間去研究，然後讓它推出來完整，我是OK的，但我想知道，你現在經過了研究調查這些程序之後，送進來的東西，跟當初賴清德總統做行政院院長的時候推出來的草案版本，會不會有差別？"],["鄭司長英弘：基本上，行政院針對跟地方制度法介接的問題還有公投，然後它是不是屬於行政處分，有關機關決定之後的效果等等，法律上的這些問題大概還必須做深入的討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：還要討論？你們到底還要討論多久？我今天就是幫這些因為行政區劃沒有辦法調整而受苦的民眾在發聲啊！你們到底要討論多久？"],["鄭司長英弘：內政部已經在去年把相關的意見送到行政院，這個部分行政院應該會續審處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：續審，但我要問時間啊！部長，有沒有時間表？你們要不要稍微加大一下力度，這是很多委員關心的事情。"],["劉部長世芳：是，目前還沒有，我要講的可能就是要請委員把它區分開來，如果您剛所提的都是實質上的問題，譬如說生活圈……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：或者是居民的方便性，再來是牽涉到屬於比較僵硬的制度，就是新北市政府跟桃園市政府之間……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是實際溝通的問題嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，就是程序上，所以我們希望把程序訂出來以後朝這方面，但是我們把行政區劃的程序法送上去的時候，似乎有一些不管是委員也好，還有學者專家覺得這樣不行，我們要把實質的部分放進去，所以就有人提到財政收支劃分法是不是要一起納進來，這樣子就越複雜。所以到目前為止，行政區劃法沒有辦法單獨解決剛剛牛委員所提到的，包括桃園龜山和新北的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，我們要的其實只是一個遊戲規則，因為你每一個個案到了最後的深水區一定是地方的討論，對不對？你一定是地方的討論，包含縣市政府的討論、公民的參與等等……"],["劉部長世芳：中央也要討論啊！因為中央也有稅賦上面的部分要處理啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，但你要有遊戲規則嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：譬如說地方稅要納到什麼地方？然後切割出去以後，這個稅是留在原地還是要跟著一起……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在看到的版本其實跟當初的院版大同小異，概念上也是遊戲規則，我建議有遊戲規則就先把它訂出來就好，等實際上遇到狀況討論的時候，因為到了最後，決定的一定是中央的專家學者與地方政府的討論結果……"],["劉部長世芳：中央也必須要表達意見啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：我理解，我理解，因為這樣子，所以你打算連遊戲規則都不做嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告，譬如委員所關心的包括像龜山或者迴龍的問題，但是我們所碰到也有人告訴我們，我們可不可以北北基桃變成是一個大的城市？那請問這個是中央的議題，還是地方的議題？或者是汐止要不要跟基隆合併之類的……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：這些議題我們就造成很多三不管地帶……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在大家談這個議題都只能講而已，因為你連討論的平臺、遊戲規則跟法源依據都沒有，所以都變成空談嘛！我們現在至少要有一個法源依據，讓它有機會可以執行，你才能去思考到底要不要做這件事情，對不對？但是你不能因為這個很複雜，所以我連基本規則跟開始都沒有，那不就等於是逃避問題嗎？對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我剛剛有回答過委員的問題，就是我們是不是可以跟地方政府再來把這些相關的議題釐清楚，並不是表示很複雜就不解決，很複雜還是需要解決……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！我要聽的是這個啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對，這裡面所牽涉到的部分，就是我剛剛所說的，我們本來在109年之後想要把行政區劃法變成行政區劃的程序法，就是讓它簡單一點，我只提遊戲規則，當然，委員你自己的版本又加了公民投票，那另外一回事……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，那另外一回事，我們今天時間不夠……"],["劉部長世芳：但是這個行政區劃的程序法，在內部包括一些學者跟專家，他們就不同意，說這樣沒有辦法解決這個問題，所以我們變得又比較審慎，要來重新評估。也就是我們所說的，在我們共識……是共識、不是法條，共識都還沒有形成之前，單獨送出去一個行政區劃法或行政區劃的程序法，不夠完全。譬如說，我們如果把行政區劃法送出去以後，我看財政部一定馬上說：請問地方稅怎麼樣做區分？其他的縣市議會，有些議會覺得我這邊割一塊出去了，我議員的名額又不見了……"],["牛委員煦庭：席次，對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以又跟地方制度有關。我本來是希望如果程序法比較完全的狀況之下，儘量去……因為我們現在臺灣民意非常發達，儘量以地方制度的縣市議會或者是民意代表的抉擇為主，但是這個又牽涉到我不要減少我的利益，我希望增加我的部分，這個就是我們更大的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以最後的結論一定是只有遊戲規則比較容易走，就是回到當初曾經提出過的院版嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是我們希望有共識才來推啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長，因為時間不夠了，所以你現在打算要在多少時間之內，可以把……剛剛張宏陸召委講得很好，你至少要把你們現在研究成果跟困境的資料提供給委員參考，這是第一個。第二個，內政部自己會不會召開各縣市的協調會議或者是一個公聽會，包含學者專家都來參與，你們會主動來辦嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們在112年的時候就已經有辦過，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：已經辦過了嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：可是我們希望如果在立法院裡面也有這樣的公聽程序的話，可以再邀請……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你希望立法院辦？我覺得可以啊，你把想法丟出來都是好事啊！"],["劉部長世芳：再邀請地方縣市政府還有地方縣市議會，可以來表達他們的意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長，既然……"],["劉部長世芳：我們再收攏這些意見的話，可能會更好。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你們112年已經做過座談，對不對？113年研究案的資料已經回來，那就一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料給委員會做參考，這是OK的嘛？這個沒有問題，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的委託研究嘛？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，委託研究跟你的一些困境，內政部要再補充一些書面報告什麼我覺得都OK，你補充一些資料，我們來安排公聽會，我認為都很好，大家縣市政府再次來討論。但是我希望，這是賴清德總統當初做行政院院長很重要的政見啦，不要像這種跟民生生活有關的法案、這種東西又被耽誤掉，本席是不接受的，好不好？我可以再等你一段時間，等你的院版，我都覺得是OK的，但不能一等再等，等到最後又變成屆期不連續，這樣對我的鄉親來講就是很大的一個衝擊啦！所以部長，一個禮拜之內提供相關的資料，我們來做後續的討論，包含公聽會等等，然後院版的時間表，我們把它研擬出來，這樣可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們提供我們現在的資訊給委員會各委員參考，可以嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：我們看了資料之後召開公聽會，到時候要請部長配合，應該沒有問題吧？"],["劉部長世芳：公聽會我們當然……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們一定會配合嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：官員都一定要配合。"],["牛委員煦庭：也要跟縣市政府先講好，可能會有這樣一個事情，可以嗎？開完之後，院版會不會比較快一點？"],["劉部長世芳：公聽會的程序如果是委員會開的話，是由委員會發函邀請他們……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們可以排啊，我在這邊公開的承諾你，我可以排啊！我們可以用委員會的時間來安排，就像之前討論其他修法公聽會一樣，這當然可以開，好不好？但我們希望開會之前大家的資料要充分，而且開要有意義，你不能開完之後又不了了之了，對不對？我是希望今天可以問出院版的時間表啦！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實不是說開完之後不了了之，而是開完之後意見會非常的紛亂跟繁雜，沒有辦法用一個行政區劃或是行政區劃程序法來解決，我一直在提醒的是這一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以賴清德總統當初做院長的時候，是因為這樣所以就不了了之了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：屆期不續審也是一個原因啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：到底是屆期不續審，還是當初沒有共識啊？"],["劉部長世芳：都有，因為他好像是……對不起，我不知道他哪一年提出來的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，107年提出來嘛，109年之後就屆期不續審，到底是屆期不續審還是做不到？你就把話講清楚吧！"],["劉部長世芳：我無法回答以前的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：你無法回答？"],["劉部長世芳：因為我現在沒那個資料。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得他現在當總統之後，他還會不會想做這個事？"],["劉部長世芳：我想只要能夠讓我們的行政區劃跟所有的生活圈實質的部分充分配合，然後讓所有的居民了解行政區劃是在幫助他們做更好生活的建設，尤其是公共建設的話，大家都會樂觀其成啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！你這個態度比較好嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，但是沒有共識就倉促推出反而是副作用很大……"],["牛委員煦庭：我完全了解啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我還是一再的強調這一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們在這個地方質詢其實想聽的就是真相，到底是因為沒有共識，還是因為屆期不續審？因為沒有共識，是不是造成他現在做總統之後不推這個事了，你就公開把它清楚講明白，我覺得這樣子也沒有關係，但是看起來我們需要多一點討論，好，那我們就趕快蒐集資料、趕快來辦公聽會，但我希望回到這個法案的初衷，可以解決人民生活的問題，可以嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委，謝謝劉部長。","下一位有請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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從他的很多的資料是不是全部都要改啊我請問一下部長是 當然都要改當然都要改嘛改 應該要花不少錢吧對嘛 部長這個錢應該非常的多啦真的是非常多所以行政區的話 我認為是要討論但"},{"start":139.98,"end":155.638,"text":"可能牠牽扯到的法令還有財政收支劃分法還有地方制度法等等很多都要一併連動都要一併連動所以其實就我所知啦在行政院齁"},{"start":156.699,"end":181.191,"text":"他之前也有提過一個草案但後來因為大家的意見非常的多然後反映出來也是必須應該去檢討解決的事情所以在那次提出之後我們行政院內政部是不是也繼續廣徵各方的意見這個事情現在還在做是不是啊"},{"start":181.711,"end":189.381,"text":"對我們在112年的時候有委託研究那現在把研究的結果呢在9月多的時候有送到行政院來參考"},{"start":191.692,"end":217.045,"text":"那裡面涉及到的部分就是說它的疑義就是說地方製度法跟行政區劃法如何做借階還有這個鄉鎮市區的行政區是否授權由地方政府來決定那這個地方製度法還有行政區劃的審議跟核定還有是否適合作為公民投票這幾項到目前為止這個學者專家或者是地方上的一些這個地方"},{"start":219.486,"end":236.216,"text":"政府都有不同的看法因為他們自己本身所碰到的問題都不相同對啦因為該檢討的事情我們應該要去檢討去面對但這是一個知識體大我個人一直認為說要來討論這個問題但必須要討論的完整因為呢"},{"start":241.24,"end":264.767,"text":"如果一個地區它的行政區域的重劃我們不可能兩三年重劃一次吧可能這個一次啊就用了50年100年了所以這個必須要好好的去思考啦那個我請教師長一下這個可能你比較清楚師長日本平成大合併這件事你知道嗎"},{"start":268.118,"end":295.845,"text":"你知道啦那結果他後來造成了什麼的影響成鄉差距是有影響我直接跟市長你講好了啦日本的平成大合併他也是遇到跟我們現在討論的問題是一模一樣的日本也是面對這個問題但平成大合併之後"},{"start":297.045,"end":324.394,"text":"他們並沒有解決所有的問題他們就是像我剛剛說的只有從行政區化的調整然後他們日本有一些很小的鄉鎮把小鄉鎮兩個變成一個但後來也沒有解決問題反而窮的還是越來越窮沒有錢的還是沒有錢所以平成大合併它就是跟我們現在討論的一樣"},{"start":326.121,"end":352.554,"text":"他就是要解決這些問題結果問題沒有解決那我們要借盡日本的經驗我們今天要討論這個行政區劃法討論是應該的但剛剛我所講的相關的法令的配套也要一併討論才能徹底的解決啦是不是啊市長是的所以市長我跟你講我建議你可以把平成大合併這些拿出來再給大家看一下"},{"start":352.97,"end":379.96,"text":"日本犯的錯我們不要再同樣犯錯日本的平成大合併可能大家都沒有去關注我那時候我就覺得哇有魄力我就一直看他的資料結果勒有魄力是一件事情沒有解決問題是一件更嚴重的事情你看日本現在很多鄉下連房子都沒有人要住啊但那當然不是一個行政區的話單一的問題所以我在這邊部長我覺得啦"},{"start":383.612,"end":397.862,"text":"應該來討論這一個行政區劃法但我們這幾年繼續研究繼續去處理的問題其實也應該給內政委員會一些資料大家用這些資料再來討論再來詳細的討論來處理這個問題我覺得這個問題我們要解決但我覺得應該要花點時間來解決不然"},{"start":408.169,"end":417.909,"text":"我們所有的立法委員也會變成罪人為什麼變成罪人我再說一次去舉平成大合併大家來看就知道了這個"},{"start":420.066,"end":445.309,"text":"造成日本現在很多問題待解決所以部長可不可以說你把這些資料給大家然後大家好好來討論然後甚至把你們這些要研究的你們之前的草案有哪些要修改我覺得都可以給大家來參考一下是 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時15分）請部長及地政司司長。"],["主席：劉部長、地政司司長有請。"],["張委員宏陸：然後民政司司長也留著。"],["劉部長世芳：民政嗎？"],["張委員宏陸：我兩個都有……"],["主席：更正，民政司司長。"],["張委員宏陸：我兩個都……"],["劉部長世芳：兩個都要。"],["主席：兩個都請，好，請張簡任視察及鄭司長一起，地政及民政。"],["張委員宏陸：我先請問一下，如果地方的區域重劃或什麼，除了民政的之外，地政司，我要請問一下，其他的地政資料或是什麼資料是不是也要重新來？"],["張簡任視察則民：理論上，事務所服務的部分其實有些是跨轄區的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我是說……比如說，我本來是在這個里換去別的里，我們這樣簡單講，你們的地政資料要不要也要改？"],["張簡任視察則民：有可能，因為行政區域調整之後，事務所服務的區域會變動，所以可能地籍資料的部分可能要重新調整。"],["張委員宏陸：也要嘛？"],["張簡任視察則民：對。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝，你可以先回去。","我為什麼要請地政司先講？行政區劃我個人認為重新劃分，尤其是行政區劃法，我認為是有討論的必要，然後臺灣這麼小，現在維持四級政府，其實我也覺得沒有什麼特別的必要要維持這樣，所以行政區劃法我認為是可以討論，但它的牽涉就又更廣了，如果你有任何改變，每個人民從他的身分證、他的很多資料是不是全部都要改啊？我請問一下部長。"],["劉部長世芳：是，當然都要改。"],["張委員宏陸：當然都要改嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：改應該要花不少錢吧？"],["劉部長世芳：非常的多。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！部長，這個錢應該非常多啦！"],["劉部長世芳：真的是非常多。"],["張委員宏陸：所以行政區劃法我認為是要討論，但可能它牽扯到的法令，還有財政收支劃分法及地方制度法等等很多都要一併連動，所以其實就我所知，行政院之前也有提過一個草案，但後來因為大家的意見非常多，然後反映出來也是必須應該去檢討解決的事情，所以在那次提出之後，行政院、內政部是不是也繼續廣徵各方意見，這個事情現在還在做是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們在112年的時候有委託研究，現在研究的結果在9月多的時候有送到行政院來參考。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以……"],["劉部長世芳：裡面涉及到疑義的部分就是說，地方制度法跟行政區劃法如何介接？還有鄉鎮市區的行政區是否授權由地方政府來決定，這個就是地方制度法，還有行政區劃的審議及核定，還有是否適合作為公民投票等，這幾項到目前為止，學者專家或者是地方上的一些……地方政府都有不同的看法，因為他們自己本身所碰到的問題都不相同。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！因為該檢討的事情，我們應該要去檢討、要去面對，但這個茲事體大，我個人一直認為要來討論這個問題，但必須要完整的討論，因為如果一個地區的行政區域重劃，我們不可能兩、三年重劃一次，可能這個一次就用50年、100年了，所以這個必須要好好的思考。","我請教司長一下，可能你比較清楚，司長，日本平成大合併這件事你知道嗎？"],["鄭司長英弘：有印象。"],["張委員宏陸：你知道啦！結果它後來造成了什麼影響？"],["鄭司長英弘：城鄉差距是有影響。"],["張委員宏陸：我直接跟司長講好了，日本的平成大合併也是遇到跟我們現在討論的一模一樣的問題，日本也是面對這個問題，但平成大合併之後，他們並沒有解決所有的問題，他們就像我剛剛說的，只有從行政區劃調整，然後把日本一些很小的鄉鎮，兩個變成一個，但後來也沒有解決問題，窮的還是越來越窮，沒有錢的還是沒有錢。所以平成大合併跟我們現在討論的一樣，它就是要解決這些問題，結果問題沒有解決。我們要借鏡日本的經驗，今天我們要討論行政區劃法，討論是應該的，但剛剛我所講的，相關法令的配套也要一併討論，才能澈底解決，司長，是不是？"],["鄭司長英弘：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：司長，所以我跟你講，我建議你可以把平成大合併這些資料拿出來再給大家看一下，日本犯的錯，我們不要再同樣犯錯。日本的平成大合併可能大家都沒有去關注，那時候我就覺得有魄力，一直看它的資料，結果有魄力是一件事情，沒有解決問題是一件更嚴重的事情。你看，日本現在很多鄉下連房子都沒有人要住，當然，那不是單一行政區劃的問題。","部長，我覺得應該來討論行政區劃法，但我們這幾年繼續研究、繼續去處理的問題，其實也應該給內政委員會一些資料，大家用這些資料再來詳細地討論、來處理這個問題。我覺得這個問題我們要解決，但應該要花點時間來解決，不然我們所有的立法委員也會變成罪人，為什麼變成罪人？我再說一次，舉平成大合併來看大家就知道了，這個造成日本現在很多問題待解決，所以部長你可不可以把這些資料給大家，然後大家好好來討論？甚至把你們這些要研究的、你們之前的草案有哪些要修改，我覺得都可以給大家參考一下。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們會遵照委員的指示來辦理，把日本平成大合併的部分，還有目前我們在行政區劃的推動上面碰到什麼困擾提供給大家，因為原先會覺得希望能夠尊重地方制度，然後用行政區劃的程序法，但是目前看起來，很多委員所問的，都是行政區劃的實質部分是指什麼，牽涉到的就很多，所以剛剛有委員也提到是不是可以以開公聽會的方式，我們也會樂觀其成。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我覺得這個可能真的有需要，因為你剛剛講的程序法、作用法、實質法，其實我覺得是完全不一樣的概念，概念完全不一樣喔！"],["劉部長世芳：對，不一樣的概念。"],["張委員宏陸：你要施行下去，我跟你講，也是完全不一樣。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們要很審慎。"],["張委員宏陸：所以可能要讓所有的委員知道，程序法、作用法還有實質法這些的不同點在哪裡，我們去立法才不會有差錯，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席（張委員智倫代）：好，感謝張宏陸召委，謝謝劉世芳部長。","下一位有請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-12","speakers":["牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","高金素梅","廖先翔","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請林部長"},{"start":10.732,"end":21.537,"text":"部長好時間來到了這個4月底那我們知道這個二月份總預算復議之後現在國民黨開始針對總預算的解凍那麼我想從剛剛這個一路下來我想等一下可能蠻多國民黨的委員要詢問其實我也想問這個問題因為呢我確實也發現了國民黨最近包括他們剛剛黨團好像也開了個記者會那麼也開始在講"},{"start":38.806,"end":53.852,"text":"到底為什麼不預算解凍我先帶大家來看一下這個部分國民黨他們確實做了一個所謂預算解凍的倒數計時器我剛看了一個最新的他們現在已經說是總統公告總預算通過已經來到了31天"},{"start":55.453,"end":64.085,"text":"但是我想國民黨在講這個預算解凍的時候可能自己沒有搞清楚或是真的就是盲投盲表決連自己當時我們挑燈夜戰通過了什麼案子可能都不知道我來幫國民黨念一下這個是當時我們表決而且我們覺得萬萬不可的"},{"start":72.616,"end":94.662,"text":"在有關於外交部總體部本部的預算當中他說外交部的業務費要凍結本來是70後來手寫改成了50可是他說要等到執行30%之後才能申請解凍而且還要院會同意所以言下之意現在二月份才剛過而且總統公佈嘛那麼現在才幾天請問我們現在執行超過30%了嗎"},{"start":101.919,"end":119.945,"text":"剛剛還沒有如果做剛剛委員提的那個時間點的話是啊而且如果說要百分之三十才能申請的話那這不是開全天下玩笑嗎就是之前你們大筆一揮一動不是要七十就是要五十而且還說要執行了百分之三十"},{"start":122.506,"end":131.573,"text":"當時說這個凍結是為了要認真監督現在逼你們趕快提出來解凍那不就是逼你們在一個月之內趕快把百分之三十給花掉請問部長可以這樣子來使用預算您會這樣用預算嗎"},{"start":136.607,"end":151.717,"text":"不會因為預算執行都要嚴格的監督因為其實三成啊如果12個月那就是要到4月才能夠接近三成嘛現在才4月嘛那當然而且這個應該是講以時間來算啦到了4月我們第一季才有機會把它過完嘛但是預算是可能用一季一季來執行的嗎我相信很多的預算"},{"start":165.266,"end":172.991,"text":"他其實是一整筆規劃出去對不對對他不會說4月底就結束他可能要執行到年底但預算已經啟動所以這個是三層確實是很難去做這樣的一個要求啦"},{"start":179.505,"end":203.468,"text":"就是說才解凍 如果要的話因為立法院會期也有限制啊那我們的很多的項目現在要我們無法啟動 比如說跟國際的很多的這些合作案你不能等到這個所謂的執行30你現在就一執行 它就會違反它已經幫我們凍結了而且我現在不能夠提案去解凍"},{"start":204.729,"end":215.137,"text":"所以根本無法啟動所以這根本就是邏輯上面的妙物所以為什麼本席想要利用這質詢的短短的幾分鐘時間讓部長好好回答因為等一下國民黨的委員上來你可能沒有辦法把這中間的邏輯講清楚"},{"start":219.56,"end":221.202,"text":"因為這就是設計了一個完全讓你動彈不得所以這也是為什麼卓榮泰卓院長當時在跟人民宣講跟人民報告的時候特別提到了解凍就等同刪除因為就像您剛剛所說的"},{"start":235.157,"end":251.556,"text":"他說要執行百分之三十才能申請解凍但是就像您所說的有一些他一發包出去可能就超過三十了那你就不能動因為你一旦動你是不是就違反立法院的決議那所以面對這樣的狀況部長我們現在該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":254.997,"end":279.519,"text":"如果要問我有沒有什麼亡羊補牢我們一個一個來解其中以前都是委員會審查就通過是不是可以請大院通過一個決議交回來委員會這樣子還可以爭取一點時間不然如果現在大院的議程還在總質詢還有專案的報告還有其他的這個是會沒有時間"},{"start":282.021,"end":301.288,"text":"大院來通過任何一項所以我覺得我有跟外交國防委員們報告因為這個真的是外交是不分黨派尤其是假設到現在這個所謂的凍結50%我們的外館到6月30號就要打烊的話這個真的傷害國家之大"},{"start":302.654,"end":321.856,"text":"那這樣也都是外館的約聘人員也不能用那些水電啊等等的話這個真的是已經迫在眉梢了啦必須要趕快為之處理對確實部長講出來重點就是在這個業務費的部分很多人都會認為說業務費不知道是什麼其實外館的水電房租租金日常"},{"start":322.376,"end":330.143,"text":"非執行業務的所用的其實通通都在這個所謂業務費然後更不要講說我們像國外旅費被刪了15%一般事務費被刪10%那麼媒體宣傳費更是全部的刪除喔我想剛剛前面沈博洋委員提到的我們過去有機會跟國際的媒體來做合作好好的來行銷跟宣傳台灣我想如果大家有去看YouTube就知道隨便打一個中國中國的旅遊"},{"start":349.099,"end":366.255,"text":"中國有許多他們狹下的官媒所做的這個什麼舌尖上的中國啦然後中國的好吃、好喝、好玩的這種行銷其實是遍佈整個網路世界我們其實真的單單只是就"},{"start":367.136,"end":380.715,"text":"不涉政治只是單獨的國家的形象宣傳旅遊可能都已經比他們來的弱勢如果現在宣傳費又全部刪除其實這個等於是等同讓我們在國際上面噤聲"},{"start":383.078,"end":398.167,"text":"那我們如果是這樣的話真的部長還是要想出一些方法另外我要講的就像剛剛部長你所提到的國外旅費的部分因為本席來國防外交委員會之後確實有許多到國外去也看到外管同仁非常的辛苦喔我就來講這個藍白亂砍刪除預算之後原定編定的10億5582萬元"},{"start":405.131,"end":425.895,"text":"因為以前面凍結50%然後呢可用的部分又有包括之前的15%被刪掉因為有所謂的統刪如果我隨便以一個畫大餅來給大家看你就會發現其實剩下的只剩下35%所以可用的大概是6億6千多萬不到6億7千萬那麼對於外館來講我們知道我們很多的外館"},{"start":430.936,"end":450.324,"text":"它其實是幅員遼闊然後很多的這些如果他們國外的差旅費被縮減到只剩下35%的時候那麼現在他們如何來進行他們的差旅或管務應該要如何來維持總不能一直都坐在辦公室裡面不出門吧"},{"start":451.345,"end":465.47,"text":"跟委員報告 這影響我舉例子來講 比如說我們要派人員到外館或是說調他派的住館這個都需要用到這一筆費用也就是我們人事的調動會被冷凍起來"},{"start":468.251,"end":483.773,"text":"另外當然我們自己也許我們出訪我們盡量的減少一點但是立法委員也要出訪啊像最近委員會就會到美國嘛那這個也都是在這一筆預算裡面那我們也到底是不是應該等比例統三十五趴"},{"start":484.834,"end":508.495,"text":"還是怎麼樣其實這個很頭痛啦我們同仁就是想說怎麼去處理這些問題因為如果說等比例的話那都要一併35%嘛可是我們還是覺得立委出國其實對台灣來講是很有幫助的而且到華府啊去替台灣發聲而且是跨黨派的所以這個部分我也是跟同仁講說我們就算再辛苦啦立委的部分我們怎麼樣讓大家能夠出榜為台灣來發聲"},{"start":510.276,"end":538.113,"text":"好我覺得喔其實在這個預算的凍結的過程中其實民進黨的立法委員同樣的也希望能夠爭取預算解凍但是如果以國民黨在我們當時院會當中表決所通過的很多他設下了許多你看不到的陷阱那麼如果你們沒有講清楚就會變成是你們好像不願意解凍或是故意不解凍但是就像我前面說的他們用一個一個的限制讓你們根本動彈不得"},{"start":539.895,"end":548.207,"text":"這個部分必須要對外講清楚因為民進黨也希望協助只是我們人數上表決不贏但是論輸不能輸好嗎 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委員好 我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對 這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院"},{"start":118.568,"end":132.701,"text":"來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在願意目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟國外集團也會做協調目前有嗎"},{"start":133.562,"end":147.966,"text":"有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有"},{"start":154.868,"end":176.047,"text":"不是這樣子我們改時間我現在意思就是說我認為說談那麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個所謂這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問"},{"start":177.816,"end":206.05,"text":"那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股"},{"start":207.27,"end":225.467,"text":"那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法"},{"start":227.268,"end":253.828,"text":"這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的"},{"start":255.956,"end":278.775,"text":"的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個"},{"start":284.079,"end":301.112,"text":"跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟他設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個"},{"start":304.526,"end":326.417,"text":"如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言它來整理原住民軍人身份"},{"start":328.269,"end":353.62,"text":"原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神"},{"start":354.46,"end":380.028,"text":"我就是認為有可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生我知道這就是競合嘛那這個就是一種選擇就是用選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的那我個人認為啦所以我在這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊"},{"start":381.648,"end":400.567,"text":"這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大啊報告委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有"},{"start":404.21,"end":430.17,"text":"共諜案是共諜案他即使不是共諜案但是他原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了你們跟下競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說他是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能可能他跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分他就因為他性侵他的軍人角色所以他競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理"},{"start":431.803,"end":440.845,"text":"原住民也是一樣 他有軍人又有原住民身份 你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理並不是 他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件 也是由國安軍事專庭來審理啊"},{"start":442.186,"end":453.529,"text":"我們現在是有兩類一類是軍事審判還有的是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討這是第一個問題我們目前也有設置我們這個目前國安"},{"start":465.785,"end":488.43,"text":"這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天"},{"start":493.511,"end":500.915,"text":"一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎"},{"start":505.063,"end":530.901,"text":"我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為事實上我這些案件目前這些案件有很多案件這些"},{"start":531.821,"end":548.349,"text":"這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回復的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要"},{"start":553.591,"end":579.114,"text":"檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告 部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台"},{"start":579.585,"end":603.474,"text":"他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署齁以及各地檢署都以國防部齁對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件齁我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內"},{"start":604.154,"end":626.833,"text":"這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級"},{"start":629.035,"end":647.48,"text":"舊個案他還沒有給你必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子的這些橫向的聯繫平台我認為法務部應該要來建議起來這個時間的關係再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個"},{"start":648.595,"end":677.553,"text":"比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回我這個接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是"},{"start":678.453,"end":698.428,"text":"沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲判也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對"},{"start":700.95,"end":715.337,"text":"那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不予公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於"},{"start":717.118,"end":744.298,"text":"這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能"},{"start":745.438,"end":765.503,"text":"都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考他有一些提示"},{"start":766.923,"end":794.876,"text":"他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他是完全就不能公開甚至連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下"},{"start":795.524,"end":814.639,"text":"是 那我們再研議好不好 你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好 以上好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時12分）主席，我先請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩司法院副秘書長。"],["沈委員發惠：另外是不是也請國防部？"],["主席：國防部今天有兩位代表來。"],["沈委員發惠：我們請法律事務司的處長。","我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股的執行現況，這個部分，目前依照國安法第十九條，我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股，但是今年我們總統有宣示，部長也有表示，我們未來將會恢復軍事審判制度，恢復軍事審判制度之後，未來有關國安跟軍事審判專庭的部分，應該會有所改變，制度會有所改變，所以我大概先請國防部來說明一下，目前有關軍事審判的部分，我們部長也強調要確保未來軍法官的獨立性，目前的規劃跟進度怎麼樣？有關於軍法官未來的來源跟現在狀況的規劃。"],["王處長正誼：委員好，我是國防部法律司法紀調查處處長。至於剛剛委員提到軍法官獨立的部分，因為這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外，其實最重要的是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一套法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個制度。"],["沈委員發惠：對，這個是最重要的。"],["王處長正誼：這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法以及相關的組織法……"],["沈委員發惠：現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院來進行有關於未來包括法官人才來源的相關討論，有沒有開啟？還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在研議？"],["王處長正誼：目前我們部裡面在草擬條文，也會跟相關機關協調。"],["沈委員發惠：有嗎？目前有嗎？副秘書長，目前司法院有接到國防部有關這個……"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，本來就是預計今天早上國防部來跟司法院洽談這方面的議題……"],["沈委員發惠：本來就今天早上要洽談？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，後來取消了，因為國防部……"],["沈委員發惠：因為立法院本委員會開會，妨礙你們未來軍法制度的設計進度就對了？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有，沒有，不是這樣子，我們改時間。"],["沈委員發惠：不是這樣？我知道啦！我的意思是說，我認為談那麼久，國防部跟司法院應該就未來所謂確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源等有所接觸、有所研習才對啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，國防部請回。未來軍事審判制度恢復之前，目前是採取所謂的國安軍事審判專庭、專股，就目前的狀況，我要跟副秘書長請教。目前依照國安法第十九條設置國安跟軍事專業案件的專庭、專股，在國安法第十九條之下，司法院有一個「各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法」，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：依照這個分配辦法來分配哪一些案件是屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股，我特別注意到這個分配辦法的附表二有關刑事事務部分，其中第六項是國安軍事專業案件第二款提到，上開案件與其他專業案件競合時，由國安專業軍事法庭審理。這當中的競合，包括如性侵、原住民、貪污等，這種情形的競合，都是由國安軍事法庭審理，請問這樣的制度設計精神是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，就是……"],["沈委員發惠：可能是軍人身分觸犯這些罪，而軍人身分跟原住民身分有競合的時候，還是由國安軍事專庭來審理……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：有關性侵案件，還是由國安軍事法庭審理，這樣國安軍事專庭的負荷以及其設置的精神，有沒有扞格之處？"],["王副秘書長梅英：在承平的時候，如果軍人涉犯軍刑法時，依專庭的設計……"],["沈委員發惠：你們是用過去承平時期軍事審判的觀念來規定這樣的競合辦法，但事實上，國安軍事審判專庭很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件，所以就國安案件的專業而言，他要來審理原住民軍人身分，而原住民身分在法律上有一些不同的程序，但因為指定為軍人，所以把這個案件也納到國安軍事專庭裡面，我認為這有值得檢討之處。"],["王副秘書長梅英：在那個法院的設計，就是如果當事人是原民的時候，他有他原民專業的背景，另外就是國安跟軍事……"],["沈委員發惠：對，原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神，我就是認為有……"],["王副秘書長梅英：可是在有些案件，它會同時發生……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，這是一種競合嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，這就是一種選擇……"],["沈委員發惠：但競合……"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是用選擇，我們覺得哪一個……"],["沈委員發惠：這是我個人認為啦，所以我在這邊主張你們是不是來檢討一下，未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前，把這些競合的部分全部由國安軍事法庭審理，我個人認為是有值得檢討之處，我認為這些案件，不一定要因為他是軍人身分，就規定由國安專庭審理，這樣會讓國安軍事專庭的專業角色模糊掉，而且它所投入的這些專業範疇也會擴大啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我解釋一下。我舉個例子，今天假設是一個原民，他是軍人，或者是……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：涉犯共諜案的時候，因為它的本質……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有，共諜案是共諜案，即使不是共諜案，但因為他是原住民身分，現在原住民身分競合了，你們跟……"],["王副秘書長梅英：競合就是說他有涉犯國安這樣的事情，或者是說他是屬於……"],["沈委員發惠：不是喔！如果是軍人性侵，軍人性侵可能跟國安沒有任何相關……"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我們現在……"],["沈委員發惠：軍人性侵的部分，因為他性侵，而他有軍人角色，所以競合了，你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理；原住民也一樣，他是軍人，又有原住民身分，就由國安軍事專庭審理，但他涉案的不一定是國安案件，不是國安案件也要由國安軍事專庭審理啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我們現在有兩類，一類是軍事審判，還有一個是國安，這兩個通通都是在一個專庭。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，所以我認為這樣的設計有值得檢討之處，請你們回去檢討啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，我們會檢討。"],["沈委員發惠：這是第一個問題。另外，目前國安專庭最大的問題，就是大家認為法官受一般司法訓練，但他在國安方面的相關認知可能有所不足，因此設計出一套研習制度，即每年應參加與該專業案件有關之研習，合計時間達12小時。一年12小時，一天如果2小時，就差不多是6天，但一年12小時的研習，是不是因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理，你們有進行相關的評估嗎？我之前問你們時，你們說有進行意見調查，意見調查結果，大部分的法官認為有幫助。有幫助是有幫助，當然是有幫助，但是成效如何，不是用意見調查方式了解，而是你們應該要去評估這樣的12小時研習，是不是足以讓他們負有相關的專業？這部分請你們去評估。事實上，目前很多案件延宕的很大原因，就是相關的橫向聯繫不足，有些機密事項，到底機密等級到什麼等級，你們去函問國防部，國防部時間拖很久，回復的時間緩慢，而且內容又很簡要或抽象，讓法院無從就國防部所提供的相關資料進行了解，這種橫向聯繫的問題，其實監察院也曾提出報告，部長，你知道嗎？這部分你們有什麼樣的檢討？這個可能跟法務部有關，有關相關的橫向聯繫，是不是應該由法務部來建立相關的平臺？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關於平臺的建立，最高檢察署以及各地檢署都有和國防部、軍事單位建立個案處理的聯繫平臺。"],["沈委員發惠：這是個案處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外……"],["沈委員發惠：有關國安案件處理的相關單位，包括司法警察，包括政戰局、保安處、軍安總隊等，都應該納在這個平臺之內……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立平臺。"],["沈委員發惠：應該利用這個平臺來降低目前所有橫向聯繫上的最大困難，我剛剛講的是實務上法官認為的最大困難，包括國防部回復很慢，而且回復內容很簡要且抽象，去文兩個月之後，有時就只有回你一個法條而已，說什麼哪一種列A級，哪一種列B級，但個案問題就必須再去函詢問第二次，這樣的橫向聯繫平臺，我認為法務部應該要建立起來。","時間關係，我再談一個我個人認為目前這個制度上一個比較重要的問題，這是有關司法院的問題。按照國家機密保護法第二十五條第一項規定，法院、檢察機關受理之案件涉及國家機密時，其程序不公開之。我知道這是目前的作法，幾乎這些國安案件所有的檔案都沒辦法公開，不只沒有對社會公開，連對院內不同承辦者也都沒有公開，也就是說不同的法官根本就不曉得其他的國安案件所有的審理程序跟判決結果的相關理由等等，通通一無所知，通通都是機密，對不對？目前是都列為機密，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：當然針對國安案件，當時的設計是列為機密，程序上不予公開，基於國家安全，這有一定的考量，也是對於機密事項保護的考量，但是這樣的設計，是不是能夠進行公平審判；這樣的審判結果，是不是符合社會法益；以及這樣的相關監督，還有它的程序正義究竟有沒有保障，甚至對於未來學界以及社會各界要研究相關國安案件的關聯性、這些國安案件的學術累積，幾乎都不可能，都妨礙到了，就因為你們目前這種完全不公開的辦法，使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題。我的意思不是說，所以它就必須要大公開，也不是！但我認為像美國有一些作法是值得參考的，他有一些提示，有關於如何提示這些機密資訊，美國都有一套相關的規定，有一些去識別化、有一些用代號等等相關的方式，而不是因為它是國安案件，所以就完全不能公開，甚至連同樣法院裡面不同的法官也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件，這個案件甲案跟乙案，我連想參考甲案的判決可能都沒有辦法，因為它是機密，完全不公開的。這部分司法院是不是檢討一下？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，我們再研議。"],["沈委員發惠：你們去研議好不好？我知道現在國安案件最重要的，你們很多都是按照你們的量刑指引在判決，對於這個量刑指引，你們也應該要定期檢討，這個部分我未來有時間再跟你們院來進行討論。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},{"id":"160397","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c82c836d4b79dc6767f4553849aeee05e40fed3d90e8b9dd2e5a7e32037ed90a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:13:33 - 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然後辦活動然後變成一個議題甚至有爭論都不要緊就吸引國際媒體的報導"},{"start":131.179,"end":146.38,"text":"其實國內比較屬於我想大家都了解這個都很關心外交部可是在國際上因為中國它現在是排山倒海的它的所謂的一帶一路這些到很多國家去事實上有一些都已經是"},{"start":148.124,"end":176.801,"text":"涉及到違法的行為他也在做那我們要以合法的方式去對抗他然後就宣傳好像參加國際組織我們要讓更多的人來支持台灣的時候我們卻沒有這樣子的一個文宣的費用當然我是這個一方面是很難為但是也很難過啦所以我希望我自己或者像我最近辦這個不管是所謂的大阪世博要去發現要去所謂的尋找台灣Finding Taiwan我就變成一個活動"},{"start":177.581,"end":204.233,"text":"然後號召限制各地的人來投件這個就不是宣傳但是它會不會有效果也會有一些突破然後像歐洲像我知道去年奧運我們的文化奧運效果非常好歐洲人很有興趣所以我們今年有推出這個歐洲台灣文化年可是一樣沒有文宣的費用我們只要把外館啊年度性的活動做個檢討之後我們把它聚焦然後以活動或新聞稿或各種方式"},{"start":204.813,"end":222.48,"text":"包括一些網紅的邀請那有一些是幾乎半贊助的方式所以委員剛剛提到包括像我們國傳司邀請的四位網紅其中一位啦我舉個例子這個瓜地馬拉的這個網紅他在一週裡面那我也跟他互動他總共接觸到3200萬"},{"start":225.162,"end":240.923,"text":"人 點閱哦 人事啦人事 還有西班牙語系啊那這個就是我想國團司也是功不可沒但是畢竟啦我們都要透過活動而不是一般的文宣管道真的也是會有點精疲力竭或是說力有未待"},{"start":241.323,"end":256.254,"text":"對 因為現在這個砍的這個狀況我就覺得說這個運作非常困難那剛剛聽到部長第一個當然就是透過個人透過個人去參與活動先自己製造新聞這個當然是會稍微比較辛苦一點那另外剛剛有提到像士博這一次已經讓大家看見台灣"},{"start":258.115,"end":279.595,"text":"我順便問一下,現在在這個展場,畢竟它不能夠直接弄出台灣的元素,那如果說我們現在要把這個元素增強,這是剛剛講的已經在做了,那第二個就是說,因為我們也有一些在那邊的同仁,他們就有回報說,其實在當地的導覽,"},{"start":281.637,"end":298.01,"text":"就日文的導覽他們有不斷的提到台灣因為他是導覽他導覽的時候他在語音上但是因為他是在日文的時候提到那不知道就是說可不可以會同經濟部因為我知道最主要其實是在經濟部在弄那這個會同經濟部看能不能有更多這個語言的一個方式讓台灣可以呈現其實"},{"start":301.104,"end":322.872,"text":"台灣我們不去講大家都知道那因為日本當然也是協助我們用玉山這個科技諸事會社去登記了一個叫TEDWORKTEDWORK的但TW這個台灣也是TW但是我覺得這個就很自然的我們現在這種實質參與之後其實也是很有張力"},{"start":323.672,"end":329.636,"text":"很多日本人去看的時候打卡上傳那有些人甚至問TW不是台灣打個問號年輕人很有創意變成一個新聞事情我覺得這個也都是在大家覺得怎麼樣透過這樣的一個參與參與就能夠讓大家看見"},{"start":343.846,"end":368.558,"text":"至於說有一些官方的一些限制我們盡量去爭取可是我想民間的空間是無限大因為畢竟日本也是一個民主的社會所以這個是委員提到就是說它的台灣元素是具體而為的呈現在這個館我們經濟部不管是我們外貿協會號召了台灣所有的這一些新興科技"},{"start":369.438,"end":381.105,"text":"包括AI晶片還有所有的虛實整合的這一些資通訊產業還有智慧的這些解決方案我是覺得就像奧運當時在東京舉行的時候日本的NHK就稱我們是台灣隊是啊那我們有時候"},{"start":390.731,"end":409.369,"text":"有時候因為中國的霸道可是大家都知道心照不宣那透過自發性的力量呈現其實有時候適得其反反而對中共來講想打壓我們的效果反而大所以委員也可以去參訪透過委員參訪您也有很多的粉絲以這個方式來幫助讓台灣能夠被世界看見"},{"start":415.735,"end":433.024,"text":"不過說到這一個就是說中國的ABA中國的打壓這件事情因為最近也是變得比較嚴重那因為WHO就是也要就WHO的事情所以也差不多要進行了所以我想後面再問一下就是說中越這個我先挑過就是說目前這一個WHO這件事情"},{"start":433.724,"end":447.274,"text":"就是因為畢竟離美國離開還有一段時間但是就是說我們之前很著重在2758那現在因為這件事情也快了那這個跟衛福部相關的合作針對這件事情有沒有一個相關的報告跟國人指導一下"},{"start":447.845,"end":475.5,"text":"我覺得跟委員報告其實美國雖然對世界衛生組織也許新的政府有一些不同的做法不過對台灣的支持力道並沒有減低今年二月這個在世界衛生組織的執行委員會裡面就是美日等國的這自然公開的對台灣來發聲以外其實中共想要用27582決議來排除台灣他們反而激起了這一些理念相近國家也表態"},{"start":476.841,"end":494.902,"text":"這很多都是有幫我們表態2758的所以有時候危機就是轉機因為中共打壓無所不在所以我們怎麼樣能夠透過各界有點是有時候也是借力使力讓台灣的聲音被聽見那可以跟中共我們站在同樣一個舞台上"},{"start":495.522,"end":514.931,"text":"大家能夠就是我們能為台灣來發聲對不過我們就是說對外當然我覺得外交部在應對中國威脅那現在當然是預算上有所不足這是一件事但是有一些創意的發想這當然是很好那當然就是內部就是說我那天在去這個學院的時候有特別跟他們提到因為內部我們也可能會有滲透或間諜"},{"start":517.072,"end":544.487,"text":"那內部的這個滲透跟間諜除了等一下這個隔壁那個忠誠考核是不是隔壁現在在問我待會去隔壁問但其中有一項就是說這個教學因為在怎麼做一些忠誠考核義務還不如說他在過程當中對這個的學習因為今天我不是說只是要抓比如說被滲透者而已我們還需要一個蠻關鍵的地方就是裡面的人要怎麼知道對方的手法是什麼那我之前在這一個外交學院的時候我就問就是說資安的部分因為之前有建議過然後也已經放進去了"},{"start":545.828,"end":571.097,"text":"就是跟資訊滲透有關的那人員滲透有關的如果未來也可以放輕鬆我們那天大概也有一個初步的結論那再請部長就是跟外交學院再提醒一下這件事情的課程的一個整合可能會變得更重要那就是我剛剛也說明賴總統提到的那個所謂的不管是反滲透反併吞那些決議我們外交部現在也在辦理當中所以除了資安人安的部分我們也會特別強調"},{"start":572.618,"end":588.537,"text":"因為這個對於外館本身的那些人員他們經常被騷擾又可能被滲透他等於是內外交迫所以這個部分如果能夠給人員更多的訓練的話他們可能更能夠去抵抗中國的威脅關稅的部分我想說很多人問過了那我看有時間差不多我就先不問謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈培陽周圍上台"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":196,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時13分）謝謝主席。有請部長，謝謝。","部長好！"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好久不見！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為前面有提到考核的事情，我在想說，今天剛好隔壁會議室調查局有派人來，雖然人事總處今天沒有人來，但是這個考核的事情確實非常重要，不過我打算等一下再到隔壁會議室去問，在這裡就先問跟外交有關的，不過考核也確實很重要。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：我今天大概有四個問題，第一個當然就是跟預算有關係，我看到外交部跟Discovery有合製一些紀錄片，然後也有得獎。我還看到今年3月16日到22日有網紅組團訪臺，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：說這個紀錄片的觀看數是3,500萬次，我覺得這算是在總合外交裡面非常重要的一環，尤其是第二個，它已經接觸到一般的人民，而且不只是單純的知識分子而已，就是很廣泛的、一般的庶民都可以去接收到這樣一個訊息。但是我上禮拜剛好有去外交學院，因為他們現在也有在辦全民外交的課程，它有點是在帶譬如說臺灣的一些NGO，或者說偏鄉等等之類的怎麼去加入總合外交。現在就是如果他們好不容易可以把人訓練出來，然後或許也可以跟外交部搭配，但國傳司現在的預算是不是受到比較大的影響？畢竟它目前已經受到影響了，也不大知道能做什麼，請問你們現在有什麼因應的策略？"],["林部長佳龍：它不能夠做這些文宣，影響真的很大，因為你還是要透過一些媒體管道去傳播。雖然巧婦難為無米之炊，但我當然會儘量變通，所以我自己有時候就親自上場開記者會或是辦活動，讓它變成一個議題，甚至有爭論都不要緊，就是吸引國際媒體來報導。因為國內比較屬於……我想大家都了解、都很關心外交部，可是在國際上，因為中國現在是排山倒海地，它所謂的一帶一路到很多國家去，事實上有些都已經涉及違法的行為，它也在做，我們要以合法的方式去對抗它，然後就宣傳，像參加國際組織，我們要讓更多人來支持臺灣的時候卻沒有這樣子的文宣費用。","當然，我一方面是很難為，但是也很難過，所以我希望我自己或者像我最近辦這個大阪世博的「尋找臺灣」（Finding TAIWAN），就是把它變成一個活動，甚至號召各地的人來投件，這個就不是宣傳。但是它會不會有效果？我覺得也會有一些突破。像歐洲，我知道去年文化奧運效果非常好，歐洲人很有興趣，所以我們今年有推出「歐洲台灣文化年」，可是一樣沒有文宣的費用，我們是要把外館的年度性活動做個檢討之後，把它聚焦，然後以活動或新聞稿等各種方式，包括一些網紅的邀請，其中有些幾乎是半贊助的方式。所以委員剛剛提到，包括像我們國傳司邀請的4位網紅，我舉個例子，其中一位瓜地馬拉的網紅，在一週裡面我也跟他互動，他總共接觸到3,200萬人點閱……"],["沈委員伯洋：人次啦！"],["林部長佳龍：對，人次。他是西班牙語系，這個我想國傳司也是功不可沒，但是畢竟我們都要透過活動，而不是一般的文宣管道，真的也是會有點筋疲力竭，或是說力有未逮。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為現在預算被砍的這個狀況，我是覺得運作非常困難，剛剛聽到部長說第一個當然就是透過個人去參與活動，先自己製造新聞，這當然是比較辛苦一點。另外像剛才有提到這次世博要怎麼讓大家看見臺灣，因為剛好聽到這個，我順便問一下，現在這個展場畢竟不能夠直接弄出臺灣的元素對不對？那麼如果我們現在要把這個元素增強，就是剛剛講的已經在做了，那第二個就是說，因為我們也有一些在那邊的同仁回報說，其實當地的日文導覽有不斷提到臺灣，因為是導覽，導覽的時候是透過語音箱，但因為是在日文的部分提到，不知道你們可不可以會同經濟部？因為我知道最主要其實是經濟部在負責，是不是可以會同經濟部，看能不能透過更多語言的方式，讓臺灣可以呈現？"],["林部長佳龍：其實臺灣我們不去講，大家都知道，當然，日本也協助我們用玉山科技株式會社的名義去登記了一個「TECH WORLD（TW）館」，「臺灣」的簡稱也是TW，我覺得這個就很自然的，我們現在重視實質參與之後，其實也是很有張力的，很多日本人去看的時候會打卡、上傳，有些人甚至問：TW不是臺灣？還打個問號。"],["沈委員伯洋：對啦！他是……"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得年輕人很有創意，把它變成一個新聞。我覺得這也都是大家覺得怎麼樣透過這樣的一個參與，參與就能夠讓大家看見！至於說有一些官方的限制，我們儘量去爭取，可是我想，民間的空間是無限大的，因為畢竟日本也是一個民主的社會。所以這個是委員提到的，它的臺灣元素是具體而微地呈現在這個館，我們的經濟部、外貿協會號召了臺灣所有的新興科技，包括AI、晶片，還有所有虛實整合的資通訊產業，才有這些智慧的解決方案。","我是覺得，就像奧運當時在東京舉行的時候，日本的NHK就稱我們是臺灣隊。"],["沈委員伯洋：是啊！是啊！"],["林部長佳龍：有時候因為中國霸道會如此，可是大家都知道，心照不宣，透過自發性的力量呈現，對中共來講，其實有時候反而適得其反，想打壓我們，效果反而更大……"],["沈委員伯洋：他們會造成反效果。"],["林部長佳龍：所以委員也可以去參訪……"],["沈委員伯洋：我們再看有什麼時間。"],["林部長佳龍：透過委員參訪，您也有很多粉絲，以這個方式來幫助，讓臺灣能夠被世界看見。"],["沈委員伯洋：不過說到中國的鴨霸、中國的打壓這件事情，最近也變得比較嚴重，WHA的事情也差不多要進行了……"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我想後面再問一下，目前離美國離開還有一段時間，我們之前很著重在2758，現在這件事情也快了，你們跟衛福部相關的合作，針對這件事情，有沒有相關的報告讓國人知道一下？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，美國新的政府雖然對世界衛生組織也許有一些不同的作法，不過對臺灣的支持力道並沒有減低，今年2月在世界衛生組織的執行委員會裡面，美、日等國也公開為臺灣發聲。其實中共想要用2758號決議排除臺灣，反而激起了這些理念相近國家也公開表態……"],["沈委員伯洋：有，很多都是有幫我們表態2758的。"],["林部長佳龍：是，所以有時候危機就是轉機，因為中共打壓無所不在，我們怎麼樣能夠透過各界，有時候也是借力使力，讓臺灣的聲音被聽見，可以跟中共站在同樣一個舞臺上，大家能夠為臺灣發聲。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，不過對外，我覺得現在外交部在應對中國威脅當然預算上是有所不足，這是一件事，但是有些創意的發想很好。","至於內部，我那天去學院的時候也有特別跟他們提到，內部也可能會有滲透或間諜，內部的滲透或間諜，除了忠誠考核……這是隔壁的會議現在在問的，我待會去隔壁問。其中還有一項，就是教學，因為再怎麼做一些忠誠考核，還不如他在過程當中對這個的學習，因為今天我們不是只要抓被滲透者而已，我們還需要一個蠻關鍵的地方，就是裡面的人要怎麼知道對方的手法是什麼。我之前在外交學院的時候就有問資安的部分，之前有建議過，也已經放進去了，就是跟資訊滲透有關的，跟人員滲透有關的，如果未來也可以放進去……我們那天大概也有一個初步的結論，請部長跟外交學院再提醒一下，這件事情的課程整合可能會變得更重要。","關稅……"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，賴總統提到的不管是反滲透或是反併吞那些決議，外交部現在也在辦理當中，所以除了資安，人安的部分，我們也會特別強化。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒錯、沒錯，因為外館本身的人員，他們經常性被騷擾，又可能被滲透，等於是內外交迫，所以這個部分如果能夠給人員更多訓練的話，他們可能更能夠抵抗中國的威脅……"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：關稅的部分，很多人問過，我看我的時間差不多了，我就先不問，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委上臺質詢。接下來林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160396","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160396","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8e62a5d01f946ccb1f4553849aeee05e40fed3d90e8b9dd2ecba6a9359c3954295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:59:15 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委員長部長剛才其實有幾位委員有提到關稅的部分那我想要請教一下現在的進度特別是日美之間已經有一些談判的一些進度出現那當然根據一些媒體有提到說日本他可能是在北國全球上面的談判中可以視為一個典範但是當然日方不見得是所有人都這麼認為特別是只要是談判特別是在這種狀況之下他可能有得有捨"},{"start":40.751,"end":61.831,"text":"那這樣的狀況包含一些農作物可能必須要有一些讓步會衝擊到他們的農業也好汽車業也好那我們可以從中得到什麼樣的資訊情報以及從中得到什麼樣的經驗讓我們在跟美方談判的時候能夠更加的有餘裕這是第一個部分第二個就是日方怎麼樣應對中國"},{"start":63.132,"end":82.704,"text":"我為什麼要特別講因為中國商務部有各種的這種非常戰狼式的這種反擊對美方的反擊甚至是對美方的盟友甚至都要見縫插針對此我們有什麼樣反制或者做好相應的準備嗎那委員說明確實我們也密切關注美日之間的關稅談判"},{"start":84.685,"end":109.01,"text":"那因為他們有直接的邦交關係嘛那有包括甚至我想川普就可以這個在他們在比較工作階層談判的場合他也後來也參加這確實是特殊的風格我們也密切關注那因為每日之間因為涉及到這個關稅貿易以外其實他們有一個很大的問題農產品的問題是汽車"},{"start":113.152,"end":130.421,"text":"這個產業對好像日本影響非常的大這個然後另外就是他們的所謂的安保就是說軍費的分攤的問題這個也是另外一個比較特別因為他們有這個日美安保的這個協定嘛那在台灣方面我們很密切的關注尤其包括"},{"start":131.041,"end":160.056,"text":"因為我們沒有汽車這樣一個這麼關鍵性到可以可能這個涉及到這個就是日本的一個整個產業的一個發展那另外一個就是他們日方的談判策略跟結果我們也密切關注因為雖然我們也同步展開了跟美國的談判可是我想川普是把日本當作一個示範要讓各國來看所以我們也密切的關注"},{"start":161.057,"end":165.35,"text":"謝謝部長那我還是強調一下就是說我們跟日方的關係也是很緊密的"},{"start":165.885,"end":191.19,"text":"那在這個談判的節奏上面我們可以從中觀察到那常常會節奏上面可能還是以美方為主導的節奏那所以我是希望說在在美國的我們的辦事處也好那加強對日方的聯繫那從中汲取一些經驗那快速的去反映這未來的談判都是會有加分的那特別要觀察就是說日方怎麼去應對中國的壓力因為"},{"start":191.93,"end":216.524,"text":"從日方的這個反應也可以成為我們未來的一些各種情境上面的演習所以我們是在第一批但同時第一批裡面的首先的最重要的日本可能已經給我們很好的一些經驗的或者是一些我們可以效法的一些做法那我們還是都要警惕一下因為看起來這還是會蓋成他們的一些衝擊剛才你提到的一些農業也好他們的這個汽車產業也好"},{"start":219.385,"end":224.849,"text":"從中看到他們的節奏是什麼我跟委員補充一點我們在先前談台美21世紀貿易倡議的時候針對第二階段包括農產品、工業、環境還有一些涉及到的項目我們已經剛好有這個準備"},{"start":239.62,"end":253.91,"text":"那這關鍵就是說我們的衝擊跟整個怎麼樣去配套對國內可能的影響所以相對來講我相信我們的準備工作是應該做得比較完整麻煩部長也要全力的來守護我們特別是我們是來自嘉義農業縣"},{"start":255.111,"end":274.649,"text":"那對我方的這個農業必須要它的衝擊要把它降到最低這是我希望外交部來去協助的那再來第二個部分就是剛才你提到這個安全保障還有軍費分擔等等那根據華府智庫的統計CSIS 他說美國目前全球的造船廠只有0.13%"},{"start":276.531,"end":294.114,"text":"那是落後中國南韓那中國是53%那南韓是29%日本是13%那甚至美方的這個造船的產能是落後於台灣大概是0.29%那我的意思是說剛才我們提到各項的這一個跟外交談判的時候"},{"start":294.995,"end":313.83,"text":"對我方跟對對方都能夠雙贏的是什麼我認為就是安全領域上面在造船領域上面我們現在台灣的造船有很多優勢譬如以高雄為核心的這個國艦國造的產業聚落包含台船中心等等都有那我們的實機是有公務船海巡軍艦特種的作業船都有"},{"start":314.691,"end":339.121,"text":"我想請教部長外交部針對台美造船業的合作立場是什麼有沒有辦法來協助不管是海委會或者是其他相關的這些部門來去跟AIT來去就相關部門直接來接觸不管是維修共享維修產線共享設計健行或者是來確保我們印太區能夠保有量能的這種可能性想請部長來回應一下"},{"start":339.841,"end":361.166,"text":"是 確實我想因為川普總統上任之後就成立了造船的辦公室在直屬總統母之下他也跟韓國那時候這個尹錫悅總統第一個議題談的就是造船業因為對於中國造船業已經不只是在商用甚至在軍事上幾乎是"},{"start":362.492,"end":382.485,"text":"快要壟斷了整個國際的市場所以他也對於他的所謂的停港費有中國造船的都刻意甚至是一百萬一百五十萬美金的這個稅那這個就是希望另外一方面要加強美國跟他的友邦的造船業這個就是台灣因為這幾年國建國造還有我們的造船產業也發展起來"},{"start":388.149,"end":390.871,"text":"所以這個部分除了自用之外我們跟美國現在有一個經濟繁榮夥伴對話在去年我們續約了第二屆就是新的五年裡面我們就提出針對運輸安全相關的項目那我們也會把造船業放進來這不只是配合美國的政策我們也希望在這個造船產業利用這一波的機會"},{"start":410.565,"end":428.852,"text":"讓台灣可以輸出到國際包括尤其是第一島鏈我想面對中國的整個青老除了軍艦以外包括海警船包括很多其他的西藏他們灰色地帶的這個青老非常的嚴重所以很多的這個我們海巡署用的這個"},{"start":434.154,"end":459.203,"text":"船艦這個快艇都是我們現在優先要發展國造以外也希望能夠輸出那跟美國能夠有合作在國際上市場也能夠佔有一個一定的地位謝謝部長那這也是符合美方跟我們的共同利益那我們剛才提到說安全的共享安全的這個確保其實這就是一個方向那我還是希望台美能夠透過制度性的合作"},{"start":460.043,"end":487.452,"text":"然後來去融入他們區域的造船體系那其實不管是在造船的船體本身或者是它的相關產業鏈特別是我國的通訊產業等等那這些產業聚落我們都有那我希望更加主動的來去談那部長我不知道你還記不記得我們在之前我在質詢經濟部長的時候我有特別提到說有美方的智庫有把這一個川普把關稅的公式的錯漏之處把它指出來"},{"start":490.035,"end":509.523,"text":"那你不覺得這個智庫對我國非常友善嗎智庫 因為有時候當然我們都很重視啦基本上我們跟美國的智庫的交往非常的平凡那這個部分他們所發表的專業的研究我們也都會參考所以我覺得智庫外交對台灣來說是無關"},{"start":512.044,"end":533.46,"text":"不是這無關這個政黨的它是智庫外交是對台灣來講是重中之重因為你沒有辦法去推測說哪一個智庫會在什麼時候會對我們提出最關鍵的協助像上次傳統基金會就是提出很關鍵的協助對我國來講對我們關稅台灣來講都非常重要這是無關黨派的"},{"start":534.1,"end":558.968,"text":"這是對台灣有最大利益的我們希望外交部能夠加強協助在台灣的各個智庫然後對美方的這些智庫之間的關係那當然我們的駐美辦事處跟這些智庫都長年以來都有很深厚的關係我們也是希望能夠持續來去加強那當然我還是想要請教外交部是不是有沒有考慮把這個包含外交學院與你基金會啊國科會教育部等等"},{"start":559.648,"end":579.235,"text":"建立這些美國的一些研究學人你知道各個智庫他們都有研究學人來到我們台的這些駐點研究機制這是長期之間的人才培育無關黨派不管是共和黨還是民主黨不管是比較親共和黨還是民主黨的智庫都可以來台灣來跟我們有長期的關聯"},{"start":579.935,"end":596.28,"text":"那這樣的關係建立之後在關鍵的時候特別是在關稅的時候他們就能夠指出對台灣有利有益的論述好 各位說明除了美處啦密切積極跟這個在美國的智庫有很多的交流合作"},{"start":597.801,"end":613.255,"text":"舉辦活動以外 我們事實上也很多邀請那當然有一些計畫專案性的委託 或者是說他以這個學人獎學金的方式進行 那我們也尊重他們的學術的自主另外就是說我們的玉山論壇 凱達克拉"},{"start":615.156,"end":630.17,"text":"論壇的人常常也都會邀請說也有一些他們的成果的展現那在關鍵時刻我們也是透過這些智庫進行所謂惡鬼外交甚至1.5鬼到1鬼都可以透過智庫做平台那在駐台灣像美國的IRI NDI"},{"start":634.353,"end":654.703,"text":"還有這個NED啦還有這些就是不管共和民主的不同政黨他們成立的這些智庫還有包括民主基金會我們更是有對應的這個台灣的民主基金會所以這個智庫是非常頻繁現在已經不只美國跟歐洲啊特別這方面的交流現在非常的蓬勃發展"},{"start":656.023,"end":671.082,"text":"謝謝部長我特別強調過去我在智庫服務的時候那我的一些部署或者是實習生有的在日本大使館工作他是日本人有的在印尼的總統府工作那後來他們都有跟我國在駐地的辦事處有很深的連結"},{"start":671.803,"end":689.157,"text":"我現在是鼓勵我們駐館包括日本的我們的代表處積極的透過東京啊除了連結日本相關的智庫以外也連結其他國家住在東京他們不管是大使館或者是這一些智庫相關的一些代表"},{"start":692.43,"end":714.175,"text":"我可以再問最後一題嗎 最後一點其實就快速回應就好安全許可的機制這個部分我們剛剛有提到這麼多的事情裡面最重要的就是人但如果人他沒有做過背景查核的話我們不知道他代表誰甚至是他背後的能量是在會不會來去導引他做出傷害國家利益的事情"},{"start":714.955,"end":732.963,"text":"那在美國國務院有外交安全局外交安全局裡面是專門處理接觸機密人員的資格審查那我當然知道說我們現在未來要配合行政院等等這樣的說法我有聽到那我也知道說院長也有提到相關的這個未來的一個方向但是"},{"start":733.959,"end":756.557,"text":"我是希望說評估的範圍他能夠從國家的忠誠財務到犯罪、民、刑事都要特別是民事也必須要包含在那有沒有可能外交部主動來去承擔一下在行政院跨部會議把你們的這個方向指引來跟行政院來分享來做一個主導特別是在外交部本身部內"},{"start":757.665,"end":784.413,"text":"是外交人員除了經過國家考試我們其實尤其是在派外的時候都有很進一步的安全查核至於說幕僚人員這一波涉及到的就是機要有任用或者其他約聘那也必須建立更完整的制度而且要加以落實所以我們藉由這個一些發生的事件我們有在積極的檢討"},{"start":787.034,"end":808.268,"text":"也是希望在制度面更加的能夠來做一些完整的規範我講這個的原因是因為你講到農幫或者是經貿外交經貿談判那就涉及我國的重大利益這個就是非常機密的事情所以我才想說安全核可被檢查這個部分來好好研究一下"},{"start":809.369,"end":835.791,"text":"美國的話在聯邦的單位是由國防部的反情報安全局來去執行95%的這個背景查核那當然國防部說這個是調查局的工作那國安局的話是有國安局自己內部的所以其實現在每個部門都還有一些不同的查核機制那我是希望說部長你們可以自己來做部內的檢討看什麼樣的機制最符合外交部特別跟機貿相關的謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":157,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時59分）你好，我們請部長。部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，剛剛其實有幾位委員有提到關稅的部分，我想要請教一下現在的進度，特別是日美之間已經有一些談判的進度出現，當然一些媒體有提到，日本在美國對全球的談判中可能可以視為一個典範，但是當然日方不見得是所有人都這麼認為，特別只要是談判，在這種狀況之下，可能有得有捨，這樣的狀況，包含一些農作物可能必須要有些讓步，會衝擊到他們的農業、汽車業。我們可以從中得到什麼樣的資訊、情報，以及從中得到什麼樣的經驗，讓我們在跟美方談判的時候能夠更加有餘裕？這是第一個部分。","第二個就是日方怎麼樣應對中國，我為什麼要特別講？因為中國商務部有各種非常戰狼式的反擊，對美方的反擊，對美方的盟友甚至都要見縫插針，對此我們有什麼樣反制或者做好相應的準備？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，確實我們也密切關注美、日之間的關稅談判，因為他們有直接的邦交關係，甚至我想川普就可以在……他們在比較是工作階層談判的場合，他後來也參加，這確實是特殊的風格，我們也密切關注。美、日之間因為涉及到關稅貿易以外，其實他們有一個很大的問題，除了農產品的問題以外是汽車，這個產業我想對日本的影響非常大。另外就是他們所謂的安保，就是軍費分攤的問題，這也是另外一個比較特別的，因為他們有日美安保協定。","在臺灣方面，我們很密切關注，因為我們沒有汽車這麼關鍵到可能涉及……就是日本整個產業的發展，另外一個就是，日方的談判策略跟結果，我們也密切關注。雖然我們也同步展開跟美國的談判，可是我想川普是把日本當作一個示範，要讓各國看，所以我們也密切關注。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我還是強調一下，我們跟日方的關係也是很緊密的，在談判的節奏上面，我們可以從中觀察到，常常節奏上面可能還是以美方為主導的節奏。所以我希望，我們在美國的辦事處也好，加強對日方的聯繫，從中汲取一些經驗，快速反應，這對未來談判都是會加分的。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：特別要觀察的就是日方怎麼應對中國的壓力，因為從日方的這個反應也可以成為我們未來各種情境上面的演習。我們是在第一批，但同時第一批裡面首先的、最重要的日本，可能已經給我們很好的一些經驗或者我們可以效法的一些作法，我們還是都要警惕一下，因為看起來這還是會造成他們的一些衝擊。剛才你提到的農業也好，他們的汽車產業也好，從中看到他們的節奏是什麼，對我方是……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員補充一點，其實我們先前談臺美21世紀貿易倡議的時候，針對第二階段，包括農產品、工業、環境，還有一些涉及到的項目，我們剛好有這個準備，關鍵就是我們的衝擊跟整個怎麼樣去配套、對國內可能的影響，所以相對來講，我相信我們的準備工作應該做得比較完整。"],["陳委員冠廷：麻煩部長也要全力守護好，特別是我們來自嘉義的農業縣，對於我方農業的衝擊，必須要把它降到最低。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：這是我希望外交部協助的。再來第二個部分，剛才你提到安全保障還有軍費分擔等等，根據華府智庫的統計、CSIS，他說美國目前全球的造船產能只有0.13%，落後中國、南韓，中國是53%，南韓是29%，日本是13%，甚至美方的造船產能落後於臺灣，大概是0.29%。我的意思是，剛才我們提到各項外交談判的時候，對於我方及對方都能夠雙贏的是什麼，我認為就是安全領域上面。在造船領域上面，現在臺灣的造船有很多優勢，譬如以高雄為核心的國艦國造產業聚落，包含台船、中信等等都有，我們的實績是有公務船，海巡軍艦、特種的作業船都有。我想請教部長，外交部針對臺美造船業合作的立場是什麼？有沒有辦法協助，不管是海委會或者其他相關的部門，跟AIT就相關部門直接接觸，不管是共享維修產線、共享設計艦型，或者是確保我們印太區域能夠保有量能的這種可能性，想請部長回應一下。"],["林部長佳龍：是，確實，因為川普總統上任之後就成立了造船的辦公室，直屬總統府之下，他也跟韓國，那時候尹錫悅總統第一個議題談的就是造船業，因為中國的造船業已經不只是在商用，甚至軍事上，幾乎快要壟斷整個國際市場，所以他也對於他所謂的停港費，中國造船的都課以甚至是100、150萬美金的稅，就是希望另外一方面加強美國跟他友邦的造船業。臺灣因為這幾年國艦國造，還有我們的造船產業也發展起來，這個部分除了自用之外，我們跟美國現在有一個經濟繁榮夥伴對話，去年我們續約了第2屆，就是新的5年，裡面就有提出針對運輸安全相關的項目，我們也會把造船業放進來。這不只是配合美國的政策，我們也希望造船產業利用這一波機會，讓臺灣可以輸出到國際，尤其是第一島鏈。我想面對中國的整個侵擾，除了軍艦以外，包括海警船，包括很多其他的，事實上他們灰色地帶的侵擾非常嚴重，所以很多我們海巡署用的船艦、快艇，都是我們現在優先要發展的，國造以外也希望能夠輸出，跟美國能夠有合作，在國際上市場也能夠占有一定地位。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，這也符合美方跟我們的共同利益。我們剛才提到安全的共享、安全的確保，其實這就是一個方向，我還是希望臺美能夠透過制度性的合作，融入他們區域的造船體系。其實不管是在造船的船體本身，或者是它的相關產業鏈，特別是我國的通訊產業等等，這些產業聚落我們都有，我希望更加主動地去談。部長，我不知道你還記不記得，之前我在質詢經濟部長的時候，我有特別提到，美方的智庫有把川普關稅公式的錯漏之處指出來。"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：你不覺得這個智庫對我國非常友善嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：智庫，因為有時候……當然我們都很重視，基本上我們跟美國智庫的交往非常頻繁。這個部分，他們所發表的專業研究，我們也都會參考。"],["陳委員冠廷：我覺得智庫外交對臺灣來說，這個無關政黨的，智庫外交對臺灣來講是重中之重，因為你沒有辦法去推測哪一個智庫在什麼時候會對我們提出最關鍵的協助。像上次傳統基金會就提出很關鍵的協助，對我國來講……"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：對我們關稅談判來講都非常重要，這是無關黨派的，是對臺灣有最大利益的。我們希望外交部能夠加強協助，在臺灣的各個智庫，然後對美方這些智庫之間的關係，當然我們的駐美辦事處跟這些智庫長年以來都有很深厚的關係，我們也希望能夠持續加強。","當然我還是想要請教，外交部有沒有考慮，把包含外交學院、媒體基金會、國科會、教育部等等，建立這些……美國的一些研究學人，你知道各個智庫都有研究學人……"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：來到我們臺灣的這些駐點研究機制，這是長期的人才培育，無關黨派，不管是共和黨還是民主黨，不管是比較親共和黨還是民主黨的智庫，都可以來臺灣跟我們有長期的關聯。這樣的關係建立之後，在關鍵的時刻，特別是在關稅，他們就能夠指出對臺灣有利、有益的論述。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，除了美處密切積極跟美國智庫有很多的交流合作、舉辦活動以外，我們事實上也有很多邀請……當然有一些計畫專案性委託，或者以學人獎學金的方式進行，我們也尊重他們的學術自主。另外，我們的玉山論壇、凱達格蘭論壇也常常都會邀請，也有一些他們成果的展現。在關鍵時刻，我們也是透過這些智庫進行所謂二軌外交，甚至一點五軌到一軌，都可以透過智庫做平臺。駐臺灣的像美國的IRI、NDI……就是NED，不管共和、民主，不同政黨成立的這些智庫，包括民主基金會，我們更是有對應的臺灣民主基金會，所以智庫的交流非常頻繁，現在已經不只美國，特別是跟歐洲在這方面的交流，現在也非常蓬勃地發展。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我要特別強調，過去我在智庫服務的時候，我的一些部屬或者實習生，有的是在日本大使館工作的日本人，有的在印尼的總統府工作，後來他們都跟我國在駐地的辦事處有很深的連結……"],["林部長佳龍：我現在也是鼓勵我們的駐館，包括我們在日本的代表處，積極地透過東京，除了連結日本相關的智庫以外，也連結其他國家駐在東京的不管是大使館或者是智庫的相關代表。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想請問召委，我可以再問最後一題嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝召委。","最後一點其實快速回應就好，部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：有關安全許可機制的部分，我們剛剛有提到，在這麼多的事情裡面，最重要的就是人，但如果對人沒有做過背景查核的話，我們不知道他代表誰，甚至他背後的能量會不會導引他做出傷害國家利益的事情。美國國務院有外交安全局專門處理接觸機密人員的資格審查，我當然知道我們未來要配合行政院等等，我有聽到這樣的說法，我也知道院長有提到未來的相關方向。但是我希望評估的範圍能夠從對國家的忠誠、財務到犯罪，民刑事都要，特別是民事也必須包含在內。請問外交部有沒有可能主動來去承擔一下，在行政院跨部會會議把你們的這個方向指引來跟行政院分享，並且來做一個主導，特別是在外交部本身、部內？"],["林部長佳龍：是，外交人員除了經過國家考試，尤其是在外派的時候，我們其實都有做進一步的安全查核，至於幕僚人員，這一波涉及的就是機要任用或者其他約聘，也必須建立更完整的制度，而且要加以落實。所以藉由這些已經發生的事件，我們有在積極檢討，也是希望在制度面做一些更加完整的規範。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我講這個的原因是因為你一講到榮邦，或者是經貿外交、經貿談判，就涉及我國的重大利益，這個就是非常機密的事情，所以我才想說安全核可、背景查核這個部分要來好好研究一下。美國在聯邦的單位是由國防部的反情報安全局去執行95%的背景查核，當然，國防部說這個是調查局的工作，國安局的話是有國安局自己內部的做法，所以其實現在每個部門都還有一些不同的查核機制，我是希望部長你們可以自己來做部內的檢討，看什麼樣的機制最符合外交部，特別是跟經貿相關的。","謝謝部長！"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員仁）：謝謝陳冠廷委員上台質詢。接下來由沈伯洋召委上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8821e29232273d817d5119736a8127fe70fed3d90e8b9dd2ef7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:00:48 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謝謝主席 那有請司法院 法務部 還有警政署司法院 法務部 警政署"},{"start":20.93,"end":37.338,"text":"好 那我想要先看一下週末有一個新聞但是可能你們都不一定有注意到就是關於竹北涉嫌虐童的教練之前三百萬交保但是呢 出境未到未到庭法院發布通緝令我不知道你們有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":38.559,"end":62.535,"text":"好有看到這個新聞那我們來看一下這件事情事實上造成非常多家長群組的恐慌大家都在問關於虐童的事件好不容易好像台灣的行政機關有了比較多積極的作為可是到底這件事情是哪裡破了洞怎麼會讓這個虐童案甚至這個人還有相關金融犯罪的事情正在審判當中但是我們就讓他出境了我們就讓他逃跑了我們來看一下事實上這個案件"},{"start":65.157,"end":93.932,"text":"案子是在去年的10月那我非常感谢相关的检察官在2月的部分就已经起诉了我认为非常的有效率虽然当时检察官有申请羁押可是法官当下没有裁准严押那我们在新闻里面看到其实当时这个法官如果新闻是可信当时这个法官他对于嫌犯的做法并不认同甚至法官有提到这个嫌犯有试图灭证的做法"},{"start":94.512,"end":114.29,"text":"所以最後呢 裁定三百萬交保 並且限制居住但是沒有限制出境 我要再強調一次 沒有限制出境所以他後來就逃跑了 到三月的時候要開庭看不到人 發現他逃跑了到了四月 法院才公佈 要沒入三百萬保證金發佈通緝 還請領務局註銷他的護照"},{"start":119.335,"end":137.922,"text":"我想要问在这件事情上我们到底出了什么事情一个一个来我想先问法务部关于这个案件当时检察官有没有抗告对于法官所做出的没有裁准严压然后呢也没有限制出境当时这个做法检察官有没有提出抗告"},{"start":140.427,"end":164.74,"text":"在2月5日那個起訴醫審法院的時候那個法院那是沒有通知檢察官到庭及表達意見所以檢察官是沒有到庭陳述意見的機會那所以法官這直接就裁定300萬的一個交保跟限制秩序他每天到派出所報到這個法院這個也沒有裁定到目前為止都沒有送有裁定"},{"start":165.2,"end":186.127,"text":"送到檢察官 所以檢到目前都完全沒有辦法去提出抗告了解了 好 那就您的立場喔就您的立場 你覺得這個案子在這樣的處理過程上有沒有瑕疵這個以我們檢方來講 我們是沒有瑕疵的對好 那院方我就要請那個來回答好 那我們來聽一下院方您的說法"},{"start":190.488,"end":204.941,"text":"這個程序部分我們可能還要再跟那個新竹地院再查明是不是這個情況查明是不是這個情況的意思是要查明什麼情況程序上就是裁定送達的問題是裁定送達的問題嗎"},{"start":211.144,"end":223.211,"text":"我想要請你們多說一點為什麼會發生這個事情那當時法官他們的態度到底是什麼他明明自己都說了他認為他有滅證的嫌疑而且他也不認同嫌犯的做法但是為什麼還是做出了這個裁決"},{"start":226.422,"end":241.466,"text":"關於那個法官就是說他怎麼決定就是要不要羈押要不要繼續延押或者是用什麼那個替代的那個處分還沒有做限制出境的處分喔這個是那個法官他們個別就是個案的那個裁量"},{"start":241.946,"end":255.021,"text":"那邊我們行政就是司法行政也不變智慧就是說好這個我們當然尊重我謝謝您說出司法行政我們不方便智慧但是我認為這件事情看起來其實是有問題的對不對而且現在這個人呢已經氣飽潛逃"},{"start":257.023,"end":271.565,"text":"那我們不知道後續虐童案的進度可是我認為這件事情其實是讓非常多家長都覺得非常不滿那個焦慮不是來自於我的小孩可能會再送到這個人手上而是我們整個司法系統為什麼對於這樣的虐童案如此的輕忽我覺得是這個態度的問題"},{"start":273.027,"end":294.05,"text":"好不好我覺得這個部分一定要注意不然我覺得我們做了再多關於兒少修法保護的努力但是我覺得我們家長不會有感我們的孩子也不會有感那甚至有更多的兒少代表他們也會對這件事情表達不滿到底要怎麼樣要什麼樣的強度才能讓這些不管是司法系統或者是檢調系統的人認為這件事情是重要的而且是非常非常嚴肅的"},{"start":295.679,"end":314.875,"text":"謝謝委員好 那我想要問一下警政署我們現在有辦法掌握他的行蹤嗎我個人認為是有困難啦因為他要到派手來做報到但是他已經棄保潛逃出境他沒有來報到那我們趕快通報DM才知道他潛逃"},{"start":315.802,"end":339.14,"text":"就是按照正常程序當然是這樣嘛我也知道我會得到這樣的回答但是我還是要請你們說清楚因為現在有非常多公民或是家長都會看所有立法院的直播我覺得相關的責任分工一定要搞清楚到底哪裡出了差錯所以我想不管是司法院這邊或者是警政署這邊或者是法務部這邊我覺得我們應該要共同來討論這件事情真的真的非常的嚴肅再來我要問"},{"start":341.682,"end":359.297,"text":"他沒有被限制出境可是我要再次提醒這個人他不是只有虐童他還有涉犯金融犯罪不罰所得超過上千萬如果我們來看一下什麼樣的情況下檢察官或者是法官可以限制他限制出境出海"},{"start":359.737,"end":388.605,"text":"如果我們回到法規範來看我的投影片有寫得很清楚我們認為他有相當的理由或者是有逃亡之餘或者是我們認為有相當的理由認為他有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或者是勾串共犯或證人之餘者我們應該要限制出境這就是為什麼我剛剛一直請教院方為什麼法官會做出這樣的裁定我們覺得真的要給人民一個交代要給家長一個交代要給在乎兒少權利的人一個交代可不可以請院方再就這個部分回應一下"},{"start":392.329,"end":399.643,"text":"報告委員 目前起訴到法院就是虐童這個部分那涉及金融這個部分他現在還在起訴還在偵查中"},{"start":402.972,"end":427.742,"text":"我當然知道還在偵查中但我要再次強調我們真的認為如果你就一般老百姓來看這個法規範大家會認為他其實就已經當時可以限制出境了可能就不會有今天這個獨家新聞跑出來然後害你們還要站在這邊被我質詢這個問題而且我要再次強調當時這個人他之所以要被羈押是因為就是檢察官對他提起所有的這些事情是因為他虐童"},{"start":428.422,"end":451.213,"text":"那雖然小孩現在還活著好像是看起來罪不自死可是我要說這件事情其實當時引起非常非常多的討論而且虐童案一而再再而再的發生我們來看一下社會上到底有多關注虐童案我們在公共政策倡議平台上近五年如果我們用虐童作為關鍵字光是成案的就超過九件"},{"start":451.733,"end":480.734,"text":"什麼意思呢我不知道各位長官你們知不知道這個公共政策平台要成案有多麼的困難基本上他比現在在街頭罷免連署的志工在做事情還要困難他用手機跟email雙認證他才可以完成這個簽署連署後面後續的連署所以呢有這麼多人在關心兒虐案這件事情我覺得整個社會語情的方向你們一定要搞清楚而不是認為他只是單一虐童個案或者是只是再一個再一個再一個並不是這樣的"},{"start":481.354,"end":510.381,"text":"在社會大眾的眼裡看起來是好像整個系統對於像這樣的人是包容的是縱放的或者是我們好像不是那麼積極所以我今天花這麼多時間我之所以在司法法治委員會一再問兒少這件事情就是他可能在你們過去的政策視野當中你們是很容易忽略的你們覺得就只是另外一個個案就只是另外一個個案但我要告訴你們真的不是這樣光是公共政策平台而虐兒的部分成案了有九案更不要講如果我把"},{"start":511.461,"end":532.409,"text":"額虐這兩個字拿掉 我用更廣泛的耳哨案件來定義那就更多人在公共政策倡議平台上不斷想要告訴我們行政機關我們有多麼在意這件事情那這正巧是你們可以做的事情可以嗎好 那我想喔 相關的檢討報告不管是法務部 司法院 警政署可不可以在一個月內提交相關檢討報告"},{"start":534.079,"end":543.801,"text":"可以嗎 那警政署也可以嗎好 謝謝你們我覺得共同關心這件事情真的非常重要好 謝謝 請回那接下來我要請調查局我們回到今天的主題"},{"start":546.121,"end":573.366,"text":"好 那調查局在移動的過程當中我就先說在你們的調查報告裡面我看到我非常給予肯定你們關於安全查核的對象跟法源你們做出了整理看起來其實也是給立法院相關的建議你們很重要的提到立法院還有地方自治團體等其他政府機關內具有接觸 知悉 持有 存取或使用機敏資料的公務人員目前都不是查核對象 對不對是"},{"start":574.286,"end":596.56,"text":"好那關於這件事情我們其實也提了相關的修法建議對不對我來看一下而且你們提到該精進的事項我覺得也講得很具體一個是救法員的部分也就是我現在頭影片寫的一跟二關於還有關於查核項目沒有列入財務信用我覺得這件事情也很重要確實在很多共點案的線索裡面我們看到當事人其實是有財務困難有財務破口的需求再來第四個"},{"start":600.703,"end":628.713,"text":"任職於前查核欠缺任職期間定期跟不定期的查核也就是有些人可能在入職前做了查核後續就沒有再做查核謝謝你們提出的建議那你們的針對你們這些建議你們甚至提了精進的內容第六點我的投影片上用紅色來表示我想問一下你們這個做法應該是參考美國跟德國的做法對嗎是好那你們要不要多說一下為什麼你們認為這個做法在台灣真的可行嗎"},{"start":631.508,"end":650.166,"text":"因為學者專家的報告是一回事但是落實在現場到底可不可行我覺得這個才是最重要的我想我們就是盡量去參考外國比較先進的這些立法例當然還要經過跨部會的一些協商還有貴院的支持"},{"start":651.267,"end":667.855,"text":"聽起來其實還需要很多討論但是我今天要給予調查局的報告給予高度的肯定你們找出現行的問題然後也提出具體的建議做法那我時間有限我想我就簡單的拜託調查局針對相關檢討事項跟規劃有沒有機會在一個月內相關提出相關的會議結論"},{"start":669.816,"end":686.007,"text":"我們可以提出我們的精進的一個建議比較詳細的做法但是跨部會的行政的協商我想因為特查辦法是由行政院人事行政總處他是主管的機關我想這個我們要尊重那個人總"},{"start":686.527,"end":706.116,"text":"好 沒關係但是就你們自己更內部更清楚的資料可以先給我們自己跨部會的部分也許你們可以先簡單提出一個想像跟規劃我們再來看看有沒有機會促成跨部會的討論第二個 相關的立法程序有沒有機會在兩個月內給我們立法院相關立法建議給司法委員會的所有委員參考是 可以可以喔好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":572,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時）謝謝主席，有請司法院、法務部，還有警政署。"],["主席：請司法院、法務部、警政署。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想要先看周末有一個新聞，但是可能你們不一定有注意到，就是關於竹北涉嫌虐童的教練，之前300萬交保，但是出境未到庭，法院發布通緝令，我不知道你們有沒有看到這個新聞？好，有看到這個新聞。","這件事情造成非常多家長群組的恐慌，大家都在問關於虐童的事件，好不容易好像臺灣的行政機關有了比較多積極的作為，可是這件事情是哪裡破了洞，怎麼會讓這個虐童案，甚至這個人還有金融犯罪的事情，正在審判當中，但是我們就讓他出境了，我們就讓他逃跑了？","這個案子是在去年10月，我非常感謝相關的檢察官在2月就已經起訴了，我認為非常的有效率，雖然當時檢察官有申請羈押，可是法官當下沒有裁准延押。如果新聞是可信，當時這個法官對於嫌犯的作法並不認同，甚至法官有提到這個嫌犯有試圖滅證的作法，所以最後裁定300萬交保，並且限制住居，但是沒有限制出境，我要再強調一次，沒有限制出境，所以他後來就逃跑了，到3月的時候要開庭，看不到人，發現他逃跑了。到了4月，法院才公布要沒入300萬保證金，發布通緝，函請領務局註銷他的護照。我想要問在這件事情上，我們到底出了什麼事情，一個一個來，我想先問法務部，關於這個案件，對於法官所做出的沒有裁准延押，也沒有限制出境，當時這個作法，檢察官有沒有提出抗告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，在2月5日起訴一審法院的時候，法院沒有通知檢察官到庭及表達意見，所以檢察官是沒有到庭陳述意見的機會，所以法官直接裁定300萬的交保跟限制住居，還有每天到派出所報到。法院到目前為止都沒有裁定送到檢察官這邊，所以檢察官目前完全沒有辦法去提出抗告。"],["陳委員培瑜：了解，就您的立場，你覺得這個案子在這樣的處理過程上有沒有瑕疵？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以我們檢方來講，我們是沒有瑕疵的。"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那院方，我就請院方來回答。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我們來聽一下院方你們的說法。"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個程序部分，我們可能還要再跟新竹地院查明是不是這個情況。"],["陳委員培瑜：「查明是不是這個情況」的意思是要查明什麼情況？"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是裁定送達的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：是裁定送達的問題嗎？我想要請你們多說一點，為什麼會發生這個事情？當時法官他們的態度到底是什麼？他明明自己都說了，他認為他有滅證的嫌疑，而且他也不認同嫌犯的作法，但是為什麼還是做出了這個裁決？"],["王副秘書長梅英：關於法官要怎麼決定，要不要羈押、要不要繼續延押，或是用替代的處分……"],["陳委員培瑜：包含沒有做限制出境的處分喔！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，這個是法官個案的裁量，我們司法行政也不便置喙，就是說……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個我們當然尊重，我謝謝您說出司法行政不便置喙，但是我認為這件事情看起來其實是有問題的，而且現在這個人已經棄保潛逃，我們不知道後續虐童案的進度，可是我認為這件事情其實是讓非常多家長都覺得非常不滿，那個焦慮不是來自於我的小孩可能會再送到這個人手上，而是我們整個司法系統為什麼對於這樣的虐童案如此的輕忽，我覺得是這個態度的問題，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得這個部分一定要注意，不然我們做了再多關於兒少修法保護的努力，我覺得我們家長不會有感，我們的孩子也不會有感，甚至有更多的兒少代表，他們也會對這件事情表達不滿，到底要怎麼樣、要什麼樣的強度才能讓這些不管是司法系統或者是檢調系統的人認為這件事情是重要的，而且是非常、非常嚴肅的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。我想要問一下警政署，我們現在有辦法掌握他的行蹤嗎？我個人認為是有困難。"],["陳組長源輝：因為他要到派出所來報到。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是他已經棄保潛逃出境。"],["陳組長源輝：他沒有來報到，我們趕快通報地院，才知道他潛逃。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是按照正常程序，當然是這樣嘛！"],["陳組長源輝：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我也知道我會得到這樣的回答，但是我還是要請你們說清楚，因為現在有非常多公民或是家長都會看所有立法院的直播，我覺得相關的責任分工一定要搞清楚，到底哪裡出了差錯，所以我想不管是司法院這邊，或者是警政署這邊，或者是法務部這邊，我覺得我們應該要共同來討論這件事情，真的、真的非常的嚴肅。再來，我也要問，他沒有被限制出境，可是我要再次提醒，這個人他不是只有虐童，他還有涉犯金融犯罪，不法所得超過上千萬，我們來看什麼樣的情況下，檢察官或者是法官可以限制他出境出海。如果我們回到法規範來看，我的投影片寫得很清楚，我們有相當的理由認為他有逃亡之虞，或者是我們有相當理由認為他有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或者是勾串共犯或證人之虞者，我們應該要限制出境。這就是為什麼我剛剛一直請教院方，為什麼法官會做出這樣的裁定，我們覺得真的要給人民一個交代，要給家長一個交代，要給在乎兒少權利的人一個交代，可不可以請院方再就這個部分回應一下？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，目前起訴到法院的，就是虐童這個部分，涉及金融的這個部分，現在還在偵查中。"],["陳委員培瑜：我當然知道還在偵查中，但我要再次強調，我們真的認為如果你就一般老百姓來看這個法規範，大家會認為他其實當時就已經可以限制出境了，可能就不會有今天這個獨家新聞跑出來，然後害你們還要站在這邊，被我質詢這個問題，而且我要再次強調，當時這個人之所以要被羈押，檢察官對他提起所有的這些事情是因為他虐童，雖然小孩現在還活著，好像是看起來罪不至死，可是我要說這件事情其實當時引起非常、非常多的討論，而且虐童案一而再再而三的發生，我們來看一下社會上到底有多關注虐童案，在公共政策倡議平臺上，如果我們用虐童作為關鍵字，近5年光是成案的就超過9件，什麼意思呢？我不知道各位長官知不知道這個公共政策平臺要成案有多麼的困難，基本上它比現在在街頭罷免連署的志工在做的事情還要困難，它用手機跟email雙認證，才可以完成簽署後續的連署，所以有這麼多人在關心兒虐案這件事情，我覺得整個社會輿情的方向，你們一定要搞清楚，而不是認為它只是單一虐童個案，或者只是再一個、再一個、再一個，並不是這樣的。在社會大眾的眼裡看起來，好像整個系統對於像這樣的人是包容的、是縱放的，或者我們好像不是那麼積極。所以我今天花這麼多時間，我之前在司法及法制委員會一再問兒少這件事情，就是它可能在你們過去的政策視野當中，你們是很容易忽略的，你們覺得就只是另外一個個案，但我要告訴你們真的不是這樣，光是公共政策平臺虐兒的部分，成案的有9案，更不要講，如果我把兒虐這兩個字拿掉，我用更廣泛的兒少案件來定義，那就更多人在公共政策倡議平臺上不斷想要告訴行政機關，我們有多麼在意這件事情，而這正巧是你們可以做的事情，可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我想相關的檢討報告，不管是法務部、司法院、警政署可不可以在一個月內提交相關檢討報告？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以嗎？警政署也可以嗎？好，謝謝你們。我覺得共同關心這件事情真的非常重要，謝謝！請回。","接下來我要請調查局，我們回到今天的主題，調查局在移動過程當中，我就先說。我看到你們的調查報告，我非常給予肯定，你們在關於安全查核的對象跟法源，你們做出了整理，看起來其實也是給立法院相關的建議。你們很重要的提到，立法院還有地方自治團體等其他政府機關內具有接觸、知悉、持有、存取或使用機敏資料的公務人員，目前都不是查核對象，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，關於這件事情，你們其實也提了相關的修法建議，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且你們提到該精進的事項，我覺得也講得很具體，一個是就法源的部分，也就是我現在投影片寫的第一點跟第二點。還有第三點，關於查核項目沒有列入財務信用，我覺得這件事情也很重要，確實在很多共諜案的線索裡面，我們看到當事人其實是有財務困難、有財務破口的需求。再來，第四個是僅於任職前查核，欠缺任職期間定期跟不定期的查核，也就是有些人可能在入職前做了查核，後續就沒有再做查核。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝你們提出的建議，針對你們這些建議，你們甚至提了精進的內容，其中第六點，我的投影片上用紅色來表示，我想問一下，你們這個作法應該是參考美國跟德國的作法對嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，你們要不要多說一下，你們認為這個作法在臺灣真的可行嗎？因為學者專家的報告是一回事，但是落實在現場，到底可不可行，我覺得這個才是最重要的。"],["陳局長白立：是，我想我們就是儘量去參考外國比較先進的這些立法例，當然還要經過跨部會的一些協商，還有貴院的支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來其實還需要很多討論，但是今天對於調查局的報告，我要給予高度的肯定。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：你們找出現行的問題，然後也提出具體的建議作法。","因為我時間有限，我想我就簡單拜託調查局針對相關檢討事項跟規劃，有沒有機會在一個月內提出相關的會議結論？"],["陳局長白立：我們可以提出我們精進建議比較詳細的作法。"],["陳委員培瑜：更具體的內容、更詳細的作法？"],["陳局長白立：對。但是跨部會的行政協商，我想因為特查辦法的主管機關是行政院人事行政總處，我想我們要尊重人總。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，但是就你們自己內部更清楚的資料可以先給我們。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：至於跨部會的部分，也許你們可以先簡單提出一個想像跟規劃，我們再來看看有沒有機會促成跨部會的討論。第二個，相關的立法程序有沒有機會在兩個月內給我們立法院相關立法建議，給司法委員會的所有委員參考？"],["陳局長白立：是，可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以？好，謝謝。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},{"id":"160394","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160394","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c874e5286e5996c1aad5119736a8127fe70fed3d90e8b9dd2ecd6849d3fc6a78aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:47:47 - 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如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢?"},{"start":107.837,"end":125.073,"text":"運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢"},{"start":127.127,"end":150.61,"text":"目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了那之後所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎"},{"start":151.691,"end":166.247,"text":"當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛"},{"start":171.192,"end":193.51,"text":"所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分"},{"start":198.294,"end":212.964,"text":"然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討"},{"start":214.585,"end":241.998,"text":"那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情"},{"start":243.973,"end":268.898,"text":"那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全職警務就國安部"},{"start":269.358,"end":288.209,"text":"的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國防部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關啊國防部的代表要不要來回應一下"},{"start":292.335,"end":316.831,"text":"委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判"},{"start":318.072,"end":338.787,"text":"那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了"},{"start":339.868,"end":352.342,"text":"應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎包委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請"},{"start":354.184,"end":383.545,"text":"司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判"},{"start":384.205,"end":397.905,"text":"包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定"},{"start":400.366,"end":426.881,"text":"已經有這樣的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判室工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛 對吧"},{"start":427.721,"end":443.975,"text":"你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是 謝謝委員"},{"start":448.851,"end":455.7,"text":"好 謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起"},{"start":460.253,"end":461.294,"text":"請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢"},{"start":484.968,"end":487.308,"text":"那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧"},{"start":498.83,"end":525.208,"text":"跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對 予以提供副秘書長 你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢 真的是這樣嗎"},{"start":526.108,"end":548.718,"text":"向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦"},{"start":554.125,"end":572.385,"text":"其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條"},{"start":574.707,"end":600.754,"text":"已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道"},{"start":602.254,"end":622.802,"text":"前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的"},{"start":624.503,"end":641.515,"text":"那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的一個狀態嗎部長"},{"start":651.463,"end":670.578,"text":"這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有 這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬 那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分"},{"start":671.539,"end":684.57,"text":"他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官"},{"start":690.656,"end":705.149,"text":"我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押"},{"start":706.11,"end":725.137,"text":"所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道您為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的"},{"start":728.258,"end":742.967,"text":"最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的矩陣認定"},{"start":745.748,"end":770.444,"text":"與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條但是低適用那整個處理出來的狀態其實讓人民對於法治教育其實產生了很多信心的危機好那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時47分）謝謝主席。府院同仁大家好，我先請司法院的副秘書長和法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長、部長。"],["林委員倩綺：國防部今天的代表。"],["主席：國防部代表。"],["林委員倩綺：主席，大家好。今天共同面對共諜滲透的狀況，來探討軍事審判跟國安體系的落差、軍事審判制度跟國安執法的缺口，我希望透過大家的探討，做系統性的處理跟改革。剛才在報告裡面，副秘書長談到，2013年修法之後，基本上，軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時法院的管轄，在戰時才會回復軍法系統，但是為了配合過度跟備戰的需要，在現在軍事審判法第五條第二項的規定，地方法院也如您所講的設專庭跟專股，負責國防安全跟軍紀有關的特殊案件，現在這個制度大概實行多少年？軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何？兩位。"],["王副秘書長梅英：從103年1月13號開始到現在。"],["林委員倩綺：11年嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：十一年多。"],["林委員倩綺：如您報告所講的。運作的情形如何？"],["王副秘書長梅英：運作情形，目前都成立專庭跟專股，有專門的法官，法官也要接受培訓。"],["林委員倩綺：是，您剛才在報告裡面有講過，運作上有沒有需要討論跟改變的空間？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前大家比較關心的是，量刑是不是符合外界的期待，在108年的時候，有個重要的關鍵點是在國安法修法之後，法定刑已經大幅提高。"],["林委員倩綺：所以除了量刑以外，你們對於目前其他狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：當然法官的培力也必須再更一步精進，另外有些案件，譬如說，是不是機密鑑定的部分，在時間上或者專業上也必須跟其他相關單位……"],["林委員倩綺：這個可能跟其他相關部會有一點關係。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：所以如果照您所講，軍事審判的專庭已經運作很多年，目前看起來也沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要，運作多年的狀況好像還持平，處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉，然後你們每年都有軍法的訓練，還有一些戰時演練的課程，如您所講的12個學分。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：再來，軍刑法也有戰時的特殊規定，所以軍事法庭還需要再回復嗎？本席有一些質疑跟懷疑，是不是請你們再做探討？也請法務部一起來瞭解本席所講的，軍方的訓練是為了領導統御，因此會採取上命下從，但是審判的制度必須要獨立，審判者不能受到上級命令或指導，更不可以被其他勢力所影響，這是軍方做不到的，所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：軍事審判是否整個要修法，這不是法務部主管的法規，我想……"],["林委員倩綺：您的看法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這邊我不談個人看法，這是國家軍事審判的政策，是不是合乎現實的需要，我們都尊重權責機關國防部的決定。"],["林委員倩綺：所以司法院、法務部都尊重相關的單位，國防部要不要……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這不是我們主管的法規，軍事審判法及相關的法令，主管機關都是國防部。"],["林委員倩綺：但是相關的系統都跟你們有關。國防部的代表要不要回應一下？"],["王處長正誼：委員好，我是國防部法律司法紀調查處處長王正誼，就剛剛委員所提問的軍事審判制度是否回復的部分，回應如下：第一個，總統在3月13號宣示恢復軍事審判的相關條件，本部在當天記者會上也有強調說明，其實就現行的軍事審判法來看，戰時還是要恢復軍事審判，恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作。"],["林委員倩綺：本席提醒你們，在你們公告這件事情之後，其實還有所謂軍法官的問題。"],["王處長正誼：是。"],["林委員倩綺：軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到法院之後，設專股專庭，他們也已經差不多熟悉，你們軍法官有多久沒有運作？"],["王處長正誼：應該有11年，103年開始就沒有在從事。"],["林委員倩綺：對，如果都沒有在運作，你覺得現在回復適宜嗎？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，這部分其實有同步在規劃，未來如果恢復軍事審判，軍法官的訓練會協請司法院及法務部給予我們相關……"],["林委員倩綺：為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，剛剛有提到戰時審判的部分，還是需要有審判制度，未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事，而不是由司法官。"],["林委員倩綺：軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作，但是在法院專股或專庭的運作上，也已經有一些經驗，為什麼不就現行的體制去做處理，又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，因為其實審判分為兩個制度，平時跟戰時的兩個制度，現在是就平時的部分來轉換，戰時的部分……"],["林委員倩綺：戰時如同本席所講的，軍刑法也有一些戰時的特殊規定。"],["王處長正誼：對，實體法部分確實是有這樣子的規定。"],["林委員倩綺：已經有特殊規定，你又要執行很久沒有執行的軍法官的系統，而且現行法院也執行到有一點經驗，你們為什麼要做沒有效度的事情？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，其實整體來看，從平時以外，因為戰時還是軍法官要回到審判實務工作，如果……"],["林委員倩綺：所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通，對吧？你們一直想著戰時、軍法，可是現在在過渡的時期，也有一些機制去處理，那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的系統來做未來有可能延伸的處理？這個是不是請跨部會把這樣的邏輯帶進去好嗎？"],["王處長正誼：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。接下來，國防部的代表，對不起。","現在我們面對涉及軍機或戰備演訓的案件時，目前建構具機密資訊保護機制的審判環境，相關物證跟資料保全，如何兼顧司法程序與國安維護，請問國防部，這個部分你們怎麼來因應？"],["簡處長熒宏：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：這其實是剛才司法院有講的，審判的過程當中，對於密件、相關資料的調閱等等，這個部分，我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題。"],["簡處長熒宏：跟委員報告，我是國防部保防安全處處長簡熒宏。針對涉及到共諜案件的人員，有87.5%都是由我們官兵主動檢舉，有關涉及到國軍內部機密資訊的部分，我們都會配合檢調機關，針對外流資訊都會予以審認。"],["林委員倩綺：真的嗎？"],["簡處長熒宏：對，予以提供……"],["林委員倩綺：副秘書長，你們都這樣嗎？真的是這樣嗎？"],["簡處長熒宏：向委員說明，截至目前，每個個案所外流資訊，都是由檢調機關函請國防部來做機密資訊的審認，依照審認的各層級，我們會同各產資單位以及各聯參實施複審之後，提供給檢察機關來予以審認，予以據以判處重刑，報告完畢。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝處長在這邊念臺詞。其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係，我們也知道實際執行上，有的時候都有點空，法訂的很重，但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面，確實是有很大的問題，所以本席在這邊談一下司法面，在刑法第一百零九條到一百一十三條已經針對內亂、外患罪有一些規範了，但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或戰時的情節，適用性有限，所以檢察官目前仍以國安法、刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴，但是條文的設計跟態樣有一些脫節，所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑。","我們知道前行政院長游錫堃的辦公室助理盛礎纓，一直到總統府的吳尚雨，這幾個案件都讓人民感到非常質疑，像盛礎纓僅僅20萬元交保，但他已經長期收取各種類型的資金。在國安法裡面，為敵對勢力發展組織或洩漏國家機密者，刑期是七年以上，盛礎纓這樣的行為，收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年，部長，這難道沒有到長期性的狀態嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：刑期跟具保是不是要有一定的連帶關係，這是兩碼事。剛才委員關心，盛姓人士的具保20萬的問題，具保最主要是羈押的替代處分，他是認為沒有羈押的必要，就用保證金的方式來防止他的逃亡，這是防逃的一個機制，是一個保全證據的方法。"],["林委員倩綺：我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險。"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的部分，我想承辦的檢察官會就個案證據收集，以及他的必要性來做認定，有沒有羈押必要，就刑事訴訟法一百零一條的規定，如果有羈押的必要，我想檢方會申請法院來羈押，但是他認為……"],["林委員倩綺：這樣的結果，其實帶給外界很多的質疑，我們知道你為了防止潛逃跟滅證，在國安的案件裡面，有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡，或是組織殘餘接觸的能力，還有動用地下資金逃亡的管道，我想這都應該要納入風險評估。","最後，因為時間的關係，本席還是語重心長的提醒：現行的國家安全法、反滲透法，刑法內亂、外患之規範，雖然構成某一些條件，但檢察體系對於敵對勢力的舉證、認定與標準，還有相關單位證據提供的適宜性，我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做系統性處理，才不會讓整個法條上，好像高法條但是低適用，處理出來的狀態讓人民對於法治教育產生很多信心危機。以上請各部門好好的討論，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},{"id":"160393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c847f30198ea17b049f4553849aeee05e40fed3d90e8b9dd2e73d84130179852065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:43:22 - 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委員好"},{"start":11.004,"end":37.127,"text":"那個關於預算的解凍,我今天講的比較務實一點我想114年的年度預算,外交部的預算凍結案有幾個案子目前已經送了幾個案子,幾個解凍的來到立法院那現在已經四月下旬了那以往這個時候外交部不會有解凍案"},{"start":38.108,"end":65.188,"text":"送來立法院尋求解凍了但今年很特別到目前還是零案是什麼樣的原因有沒有任何朝野立法委員組織外交部送解凍案來立法院我想應該都不會我想部長你來回答這個問題好不好關於解凍的案到現在為什麼目前來講還是零案"},{"start":67.575,"end":82.192,"text":"報告委員一方面是當然行政院或主計總署他在會診各部會的這個解凍案那因為這個相關的這個總數怎麼認定這涉及到大院跟這個行政院之間經過我想"},{"start":85.436,"end":101.724,"text":"不斷的在諮商這個我們也會配合來辦理那這次比較特別的是要經過立法院院會通過才能夠解凍這個程序跟過去周國委員會就可以完成是又不太一樣所以我想行政院一定有通盤的考量"},{"start":102.659,"end":121.566,"text":"我想這個紛紛擾擾,現在是已經捆腰四天現在全國人都認為說,我們為什麼一直沒有解凍然後呢,全國現在行政院沒有錢可以去執行在各縣市裡面或是各個預算裡面這個就是一個誤導四天"},{"start":123.487,"end":141.892,"text":"那有關於預算的解凍原因各有不同解凍條件也難以自分很多只要提交書面報告就可以解凍了但幾乎沒有解凍的難度如果不會真的在等前為什麼沒有提出書面的報告"},{"start":142.614,"end":155.904,"text":"是因為解凍報告寫不出來嗎那另外就是執政黨一直抱怨預算遭到預算害得部會無法做事那但是各部會自己不送不送解凍案是不是表示"},{"start":156.525,"end":179.219,"text":"其遭解凍案的前確實沒有急迫性基本是了解行政院或主席總署下令各部會暫時不准提解凍案外交部有沒有受到這個命令我想應該是行政院主委院長下的命令吧那你來說明一下好不好"},{"start":181.321,"end":201.674,"text":"我們外交部針對凍結案都在進行準備當中因為這次要大院通過才能夠解凍因為大院對應的就是行政院所以我們外交部也是會配合來辦理那如果說我想一個另外的方法如果委員能夠讓他交回來到"},{"start":203.855,"end":220.709,"text":"從大院交回到委員會我想這個事情就更單純了一點我想部長你有難言之處啦我當然知道好不好那因為行政院或組織總署是不是打算用解凍案當作大版面的工具然後故意押案這是不是"},{"start":222.03,"end":237.062,"text":"產生了一個堵值所以這個是我要提醒我們這個部長那你盡快送來因為零一個案子都沒有送來那所以這個就是比較有一點特別的一個狀況那另外就是"},{"start":238.878,"end":263.337,"text":"為被美國列入的關稅優先的談判談判國那部長本希在4月10號安排外交部和相關部會報告美國開啟這個全球關稅戰的議題當時各部會曾經在曾經在90天內緩衝洗和掛上號的洗頁中但是沒想到之後美國財長列出的第一波"},{"start":263.977,"end":279.137,"text":"談判的名單並沒有台灣更讓本席感到嚴重的是首波條件談判的五個國家中不但沒有我國反而包含我國貿易的重要競爭對手"},{"start":281.26,"end":307.013,"text":"韓國和日本那請問部長在外交部是否就此向美國交涉向美國表達不應該無視台灣在全球貿易中的重要性提出台灣印在美國談判優先名單的訴求那部長你認為我們要不要爭取來做一個優先的名單當中你來說明一下"},{"start":308.735,"end":332.927,"text":"報告委員我們已經在優先名單而且同步平行在展開台美的談判這個是所謂外傳我們不在優先名單這有出路我們跟美國的包括貿易代表署也已經建立了管道就具體的項目已經在諮商"},{"start":333.607,"end":339.832,"text":"那因為這個一下子美國要面對這麼多國家怎麼進行包括除了視訊以外實體的談判這個都需要安排包括時間、地點以及這個談判項目的優先順序那任委員報告是我們應該是會診已經很聚焦有這個幾類的議題然後哪些項目雙方面我想包括賴總統在"},{"start":362.97,"end":373.592,"text":"不管他透過這個錄影的方式或是投稿國際的媒體也展現了我們的所謂台美的這個經貿關係的路徑圖那那個路徑圖的項目很明確比如說有不管是五大項目那這裡面包括關稅的談判以外"},{"start":385.915,"end":408.531,"text":"還包括非關稅貿易障礙投資採購或者是出口管制也就是息產地的問題這些都已經有對應啊已經整理出議題清單今天為什麼提出這個五國當中我們並沒有台灣這是一個數據也是一個事實那是列舉啦應該是我們是在優先名單第一波的名單已經展開了"},{"start":409.352,"end":437.092,"text":"台美以4月11號先行進行的視訊的會議那可能在視訊會議中不是貿易的談判這個不要混淆視聽本席特別期待我會應該在優先貿易談判的名單中原因有兩個第一個90天的暫緩時間並不多貿易談判本身也需要時間若無法被"},{"start":438.593,"end":459.35,"text":"被放人優先名單很可能遇到戰時期台灣還上不了台辦桌所以這個問題我想我們一定要重視因為有關於台灣是一個重要的一個貿易貿易國家所以這個就是我們請部長要用心"},{"start":462.011,"end":484.786,"text":"第三個是我們南非代表處遭到侵出的南非首都本席去年就一直關心南非住管的處境並且多次質詢相關的狀況雖然在外交部的同仁努力之下我駐南非代表處仍然在"},{"start":485.916,"end":500.616,"text":"普勒托利亞正常的運作在南非政府推動我牽掛及降級的立場乃非常堅持向南非提出的協商要求也沒有獲得具體的回應"},{"start":501.978,"end":518.194,"text":"表示危機並沒有解除,本席整理了事件的始末。第一,2023年12月,南非國際關係合作部口頭要求我國駐南非代表處遷出首都佛羅托利亞。"},{"start":520.416,"end":536.703,"text":"第二,2024的4月南非正式發出結列要求我國駐南非代表處在半年內簽字耶漢尼斯堡第三,2024的10月我國駐南非代表處舉辦的國慶酒會當中南非再次以電郵寄送結列要求10月30日"},{"start":549.328,"end":568.004,"text":"且完成搬遷並威脅若不搬遷將關閉這代表處那2025的1月南非政府再度致函我駐南非代表處要求在3月底以前搬離布拉多利亞並試圖將代表處降級為更名為貿易辦事處2025的3月南非媒體報導3月底完成台北辦事處的"},{"start":577.952,"end":603.14,"text":"簽署這更名2025的3月25號那我國外交部向南非提出協商的要求包含建議實地人員組織以協議簽署方式細節等待南非政府的回應2025年的3月31號南非要求頒獻的最後的期限我駐非駐南非代表處來維持政黨運作但非洲"},{"start":606.901,"end":624.198,"text":"這個南非政府對於協商要求的並沒有回應所以請問部長現在已經事業下旬了對於協商的南非政府有回應了沒有那當然根據部長之答詢的內容如果真的被迫簽這個簽管或降級"},{"start":624.998,"end":652.706,"text":"外交部能採取的措施包含一 強力的抗議二 要求南非駐台辦事處遷出台北三 嚴審南非人士簽證的申請四 暫停雙邊合作及貿易的反制那我想這個措施對於南非政府能不能產生反制的效用呢那部長你來回答一下"},{"start":653.427,"end":675.939,"text":"我們基於對等跟互惠的原則因為外交行為嘛 我們有我們的國家的立場他們也有他們國家的立場所以在這個情形之下 我們都準備好應處的方案可是我們希望還是能夠據理力爭目前到已經是4月21號 他們並沒有強"},{"start":679.421,"end":703.866,"text":"自的要我們簽管那這個時候我們當然知道他們也有一些考量比如說他們如果是一個法治國家那這個管財產是台灣的那怎麼迫使我們簽呢可是我們在應變的方案當然對於我們管務人員的安全或領悟怎麼去進行我們都有一些沙盤推演的對策這個就是我們這個"},{"start":706.643,"end":731.41,"text":"要危機處理的一個準備啦那現在的情形是他們的內部政府也正在進行重新的檢視到底能不能這樣子違反法律或契約然後也違背了國際的輿論甚至他的現在的聯合政府啊他們裡面的這個政黨也有公開反對的國會議員也是"},{"start":733.931,"end":763.517,"text":"部長這個就是要提示部長因為既然你剛提的不管是陳俊宇委員所提的他是一個法治的國家但是對國際的信守承諾也應該遵行所以對台灣來講的話非常的重要因為我們台灣很多的華僑都在南非我們要保障他們在南非不管是從事經貿任何的事務應該是要保障他們在南非的我想"},{"start":766.799,"end":777.065,"text":"請主席再給我一分鐘另外剛剛我看到在業務報告裡面的應用外交主流化務實擴展"},{"start":780.848,"end":802.29,"text":"這個十億的外交我想我針對原住民的外交的MGO中心我想你有什麼樣的目前這個推動進展跟未來你來說明一下是總和外交我特別強調包括原住民外交但也包括MGO的外交因為我們外交處境很特別原住民是我們台灣很大的資產"},{"start":803.211,"end":830.683,"text":"特別跟南島語系的國家我想在賴總統上次的這個太平洋三個友邦還有訪問跟過境美國就可以看到那這個原住民的方面我們除了有無論所大使有兩位有這樣的背景以外我們也加強在各種的文化經濟還有國際組織上面的互動跟合作當然我也很期待有更多的原住民大使"},{"start":831.743,"end":849.609,"text":"我們這個也是很激起希望能夠有這樣的人才既然部長針對這個原民外交的MGO的推動我想這個賴總統已經任命有兩個原住民無認所的大使那我想下一次的外交業務報告裡面我也想請這個兩位"},{"start":851.85,"end":870.362,"text":"吳任所的外交大使也請他列席我想問問他他未來短期中期長期的推動的外交事務包含南東以西的這樣的一個南太平洋北太平洋的這樣的一個怎麼樣做的連結來做一個報告一下好不好"},{"start":870.962,"end":885.52,"text":"好 我跟委員說明一下這個上週紐西蘭有七位國會議員來訪問就有原住民的國會議員那真的是他們很關心這個原住民的外交另外甚至加拿大"},{"start":886.201,"end":907.196,"text":"他們也都有很多原住民的政策而且這已經不是只以一般的交流包括經濟文化權利的保障很多制度啊政策可以相互來交流跟學習所以委員提到兩位無認所大使他們各有負責的這個領域當然我們要看要也讓我們的國內國人知道就是說目前這個"},{"start":908.357,"end":931.271,"text":"原民外交的一些推動的政策而且我們在外交的樹裡面現在每況愈下那我們希望說能夠提振提升更能夠擴展一下我們的國際事業好不好是 那我也建議委員因為包括原民會啦還有幾個相關的部會如果能夠一併來做一個整體的對原住民外交的檢視我們就可以有更多能夠促成我們一併邀請好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":129,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時43分）請部長。"],["主席：請林部長，謝謝。"],["黃委員仁：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員仁：關於預算的解凍，我今天講得比較務實一點，114年的年度預算，外交部的預算凍結案目前已經送了幾個解凍案來到立法院？現在已經是4月下旬，以往這個時候外交部會有解凍案送來立法院尋求解凍，但今年很特別，到目前還是零案，是什麼樣的原因？有沒有任何朝野立法委員阻止外交部送解凍案來立法院？我想應該都不會。部長，你來回答這個問題，好不好？關於解凍的案子，為什麼到目前為止還是零案？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，一方面是行政院或主計總處在彙整各部會的解凍案，因為相關總數怎麼認定涉及大院跟行政院之間，經過不斷諮商，我們也會配合辦理。這次比較特別的是要經過立法院院會通過才能夠解凍，這個程序跟過去透過委員會就可以完成又不太一樣，所以我想行政院一定有通盤的考量。"],["黃委員仁：我想這個紛紛擾擾現在已經混淆視聽了，全國人民都認為為什麼一直沒有解凍。現在行政院沒有錢可以在各縣市執行各項預算，這就是誤導大眾、混淆視聽。有關於預算的解凍原因各有不同，解凍條件也有難易之分，很多只要提交書面報告就可以解凍了，幾乎沒有解凍的難度，如果部會真的要等錢用，為什麼沒有提出書面報告？是因為解凍報告寫不出來嗎？另外就是執政黨一直抱怨預算遭到刪除，害得部會無法做事，但是各部會自己不送解凍案，是不是表示其遭凍結的錢確實沒有急迫性？據本席了解，行政院或主計總處下令各部會暫時不准提解凍案，外交部有沒有收到這個命令？我想應該是行政院卓院長下的命令吧！你來說明一下好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：我們外交部針對凍結案都在進行準備當中，因為這次要大院通過才能夠解凍，而大院對應的就是行政院，所以我們外交部也是會配合辦理。我想一個另外的方法，如果委員能夠讓它從大院交回委員會，我想這個事情就更單純一點。"],["黃委員仁：我想部長有難言之處，我當然知道！行政院或主計總處是不是打算用解凍案當作大罷免的工具，故意壓案，這是不是產生了所謂的瀆職？這個是我要提醒部長的，請你儘快送來，因為連一個案子都沒有送來，這就是比較特別的狀況，好不好？","另外就是未被美國列入關稅優先談判國，部長，本席在4月10號安排外交部和相關部會報告美國開啟全球關稅戰的議題，當時各部會沉浸在90天內的緩衝期和掛上號的喜悅中，但是沒想到之後美國財長列出的第一波談判名單並沒有臺灣，更讓本席感到嚴重的是，首波條件談判的5個國家中不但沒有我國，反而包含我國貿易的重要競爭對手──韓國和日本。請問部長，外交部是否就此向美國交涉，向美國表達不應該無視臺灣在全球貿易中的重要性，提出臺灣應在美國談判優先名單的訴求？部長，你認為我們要不要爭取列在優先名單當中？來，說明一下。"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，我們已經在優先名單，而且同步平行展開臺美的談判，所謂外傳我們不在優先名單，這有出入。我們跟美國的，包括貿易代表署也已經建立了管道，具體的項目已經在諮商。因為一下子美國要面對這麼多國家怎麼進行，除了視訊以外，還有實體的談判，這些都需要安排，包括時間、地點以及談判項目的優先順序。跟委員報告，我們應該是彙整已經很聚焦幾類議題，然後哪些項目，包括賴總統不管是透過錄影的方式，或是投稿國際媒體，也展現了我們臺美的經貿關係路徑圖，那個路徑圖的項目很明確。比如說，不管是五大項目，這裡面除了關稅的談判以外，還包括非關稅貿易障礙、投資、採購，或者是出口管制，也就是洗產地的問題，這些都已經有對應並整理出議題清單。"],["黃委員仁：今天為什麼提出這個問題，因為優先談判五國當中並沒有臺灣，這是一個數據，也是一個事實。"],["林部長佳龍：那是列舉，我們應該是在優先名單，第一波的名單已經展開了。"],["黃委員仁：臺美在4月11號先行進行視訊會議，可能在視訊會議中不是貿易談判，這個不要混淆視聽。本席特別期待我國應該在優先貿易談判的名單中，原因有兩個：第一個，90天的暫緩時間並不多，貿易談判本身也需要時間，若無法被放入優先名單，很可能過了暫緩期，臺灣還上不了談判桌，所以這個問題一定要重視，因為臺灣是一個重要的貿易國家，所以請部長要用心；第二個，我們南非代表處遭到被迫遷出南非首都，本席去年就一直關心南非駐館的處境，並且多次質詢相關的狀況，雖然在外交部同仁的努力之下，我國駐南非代表處仍然在普勒托利亞正常的運作，但南非政府推動遷館及降級的立場非常堅持，向南非提出的協商要求，也沒有獲得具體的回應，表示危機並沒有解除。","本席整理事件的始末：第一、2023年12月南非國際關係與合作部口頭要求我國駐南非代表處遷出首都普勒托利亞；第二、2024年4月南非正式發出節略，要求我國駐南非代表處在半年內遷至約翰尼斯堡；第三、2024年10月我國駐南非代表處舉辦國慶酒會當日，南非再次以電郵寄送節略，要求10月30號前完成搬遷，並威脅若不搬遷將關閉代表處；2025年1月南非政府再度致函我國駐南非代表處，要求在3月底前搬離普勒托利亞，並試圖將代表處降級更名為「貿易辦事處」；2025年3月南非媒體報導，3月底完成台北辦事處的遷處及更名，2025年3月25號我國外交部向南非提出協商要求，包含建議時地、人員組成與協議簽署方式等細節，等待南非政府回應；2025年3月31號南非要求搬遷的最後期限，我駐南非代表處仍維持正常運作，但南非政府對於協商要求沒有回應。","請問部長，現在已經4月下旬了，對於協商的內容南非政府有回應了沒？根據部長答詢的內容，如果真的被迫遷館或降級，外交部能採取的措施包含：一、強力的抗議；二、要求南非駐臺辦事處遷出臺北；三、嚴審南非人士簽證的申請；四、暫停雙邊合作及貿易的反制。我想這些措施對於南非政府能不能產生反制的效用呢？部長，你來回答一下。"],["林部長佳龍：我們基於對等跟互惠的原則，針對這些外交行為，我們有我們國家的立場，他們也有他們國家的立場，所以在這個情形之下，我們都準備好應處的方案，可是我們還是希望能夠據理力爭。到目前已經是4月21號，他們並沒有強制地要我們遷館，這個時候我們當然知道他們也有些考量，比如他們是個法治國家，館是臺灣的財產，怎麼能迫使我們遷呢？我們應變的方案，當然對於我們館務人員的安全或領務怎麼進行，我們都有一些沙盤推演的對策，這就是我們要危機處理的準備。現在的情形是，他們內部政府正在重新進行檢視，到底能不能這樣子違反法律或契約，也違背了國際輿論，甚至現在聯合政府內部政黨也有公開反對的，國會議員也是。"],["黃委員仁：好，部長，這要提醒部長，既然你剛剛提的，不管是陳俊宇委員所提的，它是一個法治國家，但也應該遵行國際間的信守承諾，所以對臺灣來講非常的重要，因為臺灣很多的華僑都在南非，我們要保障他們在南非不管是從事經貿等任何事務，應該要保障他們在南非的……我想據理力爭，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員仁：請主席再給我一分鐘。另外，剛剛我看到業務報告裡的運用外交主流化務實擴展實益外交，針對原住民外交NGO的中心，目前有什麼樣的推動跟進展以及未來？你來說明一下。"],["林部長佳龍：總和外交，我特別強調原住民外交，也包括NGO的外交，因為我們外交處境很特別，原住民是我們臺灣很大的資產，特別跟南島語系的國家，在賴總統上次出訪太平洋的三個友邦，還有訪問跟過境美國就可以看到。原住民方面，我們除了兩位無任所大使有這樣的背景以外，我們也加強各種文化、經濟，還有國際組織上的互動跟合作。當然委員很期待有更多的原住民大使，我們真的很希望能夠有這樣的人才。"],["黃委員仁：既然針對原民外交NGO的推動，賴總統已經任命兩個原住民擔任無任所大使，下一次的外交業務報告裡面，我想請這兩位無任所大使也列席，我想問他們未來短期、中期、長期推動的外交事務，包含南島語系的南太平洋、北太平洋怎麼樣連結來做一個報告，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，跟委員說明，上週紐西蘭有7位國會議員來訪，就有原住民的國會議員，他們真的很關心原住民的外交；另外甚至連加拿大也都有很多原住民的政策，這已經不只是一般的交流，包括經濟、文化、權利的保障，很多制度及政策可以相互交流跟學習。委員提到兩位無任所大使各有負責的領域。"],["黃委員仁：當然我們也要讓國人知道，目前原民外交的一些推動政策，而且我們在外交事務裡面現在每況愈下，希望能夠提振、提升，更能夠擴展我們的國際視野，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我也建議委員，原民會還有幾個相關的部會，如果能夠一併檢視整體的原住民外交，我們就可以有更多能夠促成合作。"],["黃委員仁：好，我們一併邀請，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員。","我們請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160392","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160392","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8db099b95456f1b0dd5119736a8127fe7a7b5a1fcb72359eba3b85e23f7c4a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:32:00 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麻煩有請法務部部長調查局局長要協助可以一起上來部長好 局長好今年部長"},{"start":33.379,"end":42.291,"text":"在辦調查局局長交接的時候下令要強化偵辦國安案件我今天看了法務部的報告"},{"start":44.151,"end":69.15,"text":"針對國安案件你們整理出了三種嚴重的類型一個是科技掏空一個是借選滲透一個是發展組織利用軍人拍攝投降影音這個是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告這部長名字掛的報告部長很清楚請問一下部長現在色誘透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重"},{"start":73.426,"end":89.177,"text":"因為媒體說很嚴重嘛但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊我想說是活在平行時空啊還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃不敢寫色誘的類型嚴不嚴重媒體說很嚴重啊你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提啊嚴不嚴重"},{"start":100.101,"end":119.811,"text":"你總知道什麼類型嚴重 知道往哪邊加強偵辦啊那種被色誘的 輕功舔中的照片出來了就說是deep-seek結果給調查局去鑑定鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講丟人現眼啊丟人現眼啊不是假訊息不是身為"},{"start":129.537,"end":155.115,"text":"啊法務部的報告半個字都不敢提來現在啊綠色共諜啊攻佔我們民主進步黨的府院黨啊這個在法務部報告的第幾類型啊因為我看那三個類型這裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊今天法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫增設第四類型"},{"start":159.315,"end":167.35,"text":"部長請回答這邊我們是以整理目前較多的一個主要的這樣還不夠多一個報告這樣子還不夠多"},{"start":171.143,"end":197.725,"text":"這樣還覺得少就對了這個應該這個這個綠色所謂什麼這個共諜橫行那這部分我們都有查緝這個也是我們根據我們這些的一個情資而查到的我們一個一個來啦現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫的對不對完不完整嘛這個我們寫的都說很正確就是把所有我們所謂的類型呈現出來嘛這個是放在第幾類型你指教的話我們再來加強嘛好"},{"start":198.766,"end":218.193,"text":"我就是有指教嘛 放不進你那三個類型嘛 那就請你加強嘛那這個類型的話我們可以 我們這是主要的類型嘛那我們並沒有否認所有 剛剛委員就講這些的一個類型好 我們一步一步來喔現在何仁杰遭到羈押吳釗燮長期待在身邊的親信針對何仁杰洩露國家機密這樣子的犯行"},{"start":225.782,"end":226.705,"text":"目前偵辦吳釗燮該不該一起偵辦"},{"start":233.524,"end":258.396,"text":"這個吳秘書長有沒有這些的一個問題我想這個是我不會干涉指導 干涉介入個案那這個檢察官如果有證據的話我想任何人只要涉及共諜我想檢察只有犯罪群體就會依法來偵辦說得很好嘛那大家就接著看嘛看是不是有偵辦嘛我現在喔 部長你看一下我上面寫不是要不要喔"},{"start":259.369,"end":272.033,"text":"要不要交給檢察官嘛現在我在談的是規範的事情是該不該嘛之前我公開記者會講過啦在國安法裡面就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過失犯這個是有處罰過失犯這個有處罰過失犯嘛這個過失的態樣要如何來加以界定應該注意沒有注意能夠注意卻沒有注意"},{"start":288.827,"end":300.122,"text":"養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久洩漏了國家機密他有沒有注意義務他有注意義務吧他有盡到他的注意義務嗎來 請教部長"},{"start":304.159,"end":315.793,"text":"這個是指過失或是指過失的一個洩漏交付等等的這些的一個行為嘛而不是說旁邊有供點的話他就那些就所以嘛現在部長在解釋法條的時候順便就把五招線給開脫了嘛是不是"},{"start":320.902,"end":342.416,"text":"沒什麼開脫啦 就是有合乎到犯罪的過程要見當然檢測只有犯罪性檢察官就會立案沒關係啊 全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛有沒有雙標嘛這個沒有雙標就依法偵辦有犯罪行為就是依法嚴判我們繼續往下看 何仁杰他受國家機密保護法26條列管的對象"},{"start":345.072,"end":359.167,"text":"這個我去調過了這個問題我問了非常久發函給外交部啊外交部是用普通件不是用密件回函所以確認了何仁杰他是國家親密保護法26條啊列管的對象下一個問題啊"},{"start":362.066,"end":384.065,"text":"針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作今天局長有報告嘛是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛有一般的安全查核有特殊的安全查核就何仁傑的部分他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一何仁傑他有經過一次的這個特殊查核什麼時候105年5月105年5月來看一下局長"},{"start":389.389,"end":417.508,"text":"只有一次嘛 來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定第五條第一項說各機關辦理特殊查核應該在他出任在任或轉任第二條鎖定職務前辦理完畢所以你講的2016年的查核指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嗎是好"},{"start":418.635,"end":445.266,"text":"那他到2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有在查核這個部分有還是沒有沒有在為什麼沒有按照法條的規定不是應該要在辦查核嗎那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們所以是總統府沒有通知總統府秘書長是沒有通知所以沒有辦就有關和人節的部分就是查過2016年對嘛現在喔 局長"},{"start":446.306,"end":458.982,"text":"我們是法律人啦所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛我們一條一條來不要混在一起講啦第一個按照法律的規定他從國安會到總統府秘書長了"},{"start":460.649,"end":475.956,"text":"需不需要再辦查核按照法條的規定他在載任或出任載任或是調任這個特殊查核職務這是不是調任是嘛應該要辦應該要辦嘛說清楚嘛法條說應該要辦卻沒有辦現在我問題來了法條說他轉任應該要辦但是卻沒有提報上來要辦這個責任誰要負這個應該"},{"start":490.222,"end":511.011,"text":"推給人事機構的人說最基層的那個人事機構的人扛責對嘛現在就是法規上應該要做現實上沒有在做所以我才請教你嘛這件事情誰要負責還是沒有人需要負責反正清拆瞎下來啦"},{"start":514.059,"end":526.836,"text":"誰要負責這個是人事行政總署人事行政總署要負責喔哇 你這樣講可能人事長多在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍蛤"},{"start":529.579,"end":557.758,"text":"總統府秘書長是沒有報查核結果是人事長要負責這樣對嗎沒有法條是人事行政總署主管啦好好好沒有關係那個可能到時候主席再排一下請人事長來啊因為調查局局長說他要負責啊沒有我是我要講清楚法條是人事行政總署主管但是這個要提出查核是用人機關要主管是嘛就是用人機關嘛那用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎"},{"start":560.26,"end":584.411,"text":"到外交部的時候他有沒有在辦查核沒有嘛 是不是沒有來來來 看一下啦 剛剛你講的一千多種我都幫你整理出來了嘛外交部秘書 辦理部長室秘書業務人員 辦理部長室機要業務啊這個不就是何仁傑的位置嗎"},{"start":586.226,"end":608.644,"text":"到外交部的時候還有在辦特殊查核嗎有嗎 沒有吧所以現在變成的是什麼 用人機關要負責嘛總統府秘書長要負責嘛外交部部長要負責嘛都是吳釗燮待在身邊的人辦一次 後來都不用辦那不是吳釗燮要負責 誰要負責來 再往下看"},{"start":613.626,"end":616.889,"text":"吳尚宇有沒有辦特殊查核一樣啦這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦他有沒有辦特殊查核有還是沒有他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核放在副總統辦公室耶處理機密業務耶"},{"start":639.293,"end":654.682,"text":"結果現在這個共諜才發現原來我們的安全查核機制啊是形同具穩啦 形同具穩啦不僅和人節 和人節只辦一次 吳尚宇是連辦都沒有辦過誰要負責 誰要負責 用人機關要負責 剛剛你講的嘛所以現在清德要負責嗎"},{"start":664.062,"end":689.461,"text":"他辦公室的人啊人事單位要負責又推給人事人員啊人事單位要主動喊給我們來特殊查核是不是可以請調查局回去追究今天發函給用人機關依法該查核為什麼沒有查核你如果連這件事情都不敢做今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎"},{"start":690.709,"end":709.318,"text":"我們已經討論出來了嘛所以我現在要你問他嘛你當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎法規上面應該要查核 現實上沒有查核如果這樣不是個問題 那什麼是問題如果這不是問題 什麼是問題"},{"start":717.012,"end":721.996,"text":"還是試射我們現在的總統很尷尬問都不敢問皮球踢來踢去現在不想要怎麼踢太尷尬了現在被抓起來這個連查核都沒查核蛤"},{"start":743.442,"end":757.178,"text":"這不是檢討制度的問題而已啊這個是依照現在的制度應該要做卻沒有做但是我們負責查核的機關法務部調下去顯然不敢追究責任"},{"start":759.677,"end":783.359,"text":"報委員 這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究我知道嘛 所以我要你去追究責任嘛在整個體制裡面我們是被動 我知道所以我要你發文去問用人機關啊機關什麼時候要用人 他要調什麼人這個是機關的人事的事件我們也不會知道沒錯 你說的都對所以我要你去問嘛去問用人機關啊你當初怎麼沒有報這個人來給我們調查局查核"},{"start":785.868,"end":809.649,"text":"我想這個不是我們調查局的這個不是你們調查局的喔應該要報給你們 卻沒有報給你們還不是調查局的職責 那是誰的職責這個才是最大的問題嘛對嘛 但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任嘛事情不就是這樣嗎 超級清楚的沒有人敢去追究啊"},{"start":816.098,"end":837.162,"text":"來 請教一下部長我們洩密的對象啊洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國啊刑責上啊 法定刑應不應該區別對待 贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責 贊不贊成這是一個立法政策的問題是 所以你贊不贊成這個要廣納意見要廣納意見嘛當初啊 邱泰山反對"},{"start":842.588,"end":870.66,"text":"他很明確啊 邱太三反對啊那奇怪了我們的總統不是把中國講成制定境外敵對勢力洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰啊結果現在法務部要強化國安 要防止洩密連洩密給中國法定刑要提高這件事情都不敢講怕尷尬喔 怕尷尬是不是因為之前民進黨政府反對過啊"},{"start":874.025,"end":897.884,"text":"之前邱泰山反對過啊我第一次當立委的時候為了這個事情跟邱泰山辯論了幾次他反對啊到院會表決的時候民進黨一再阻擋不處理拖到二零二九年拖到二零一九年不得不處理了最後是什麼最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺"},{"start":902.318,"end":915.459,"text":"把提高對中國泄密的處罰封殺啊難怪你今天只能夠軟軟的說要廣納社會意見法務部連這個基本態度都不敢表達被封殺了啦"},{"start":916.872,"end":937.971,"text":"你可以請你的幕僚把整個立法的歷程整理給你看啦在立法院公報裡面通通都有啦我希望喔我也利用這個機會公開呼籲我們國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案了希望招點審議到時候希望法務部能夠勇敢的支持謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時32分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請法務部部長，調查局局長要協助也可以一起上來。"],["主席：請部長、局長。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好、局長好。去年部長在調查局局長交接的時候下令要加強偵辦國安案件，我今天看了法務部的報告，你們針對國安案件整理出了三種嚴重的類型，一個是科技淘空，一個是介選滲透，一個是發展組織、利誘軍人拍攝投降影音，這是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告，是部長名字掛名的報告，部長應該很清楚。我請問一下部長，現在透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["黃委員國昌：因為媒體說很嚴重嘛，但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊！我想說這是活在平行時空，還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃、不敢寫？色誘這個類型嚴不嚴重？媒體說很嚴重，但你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提，嚴不嚴重？你總要先知道什麼類型嚴重，這樣才能知道要往哪邊加強偵辦啊！那種被色誘的、親中舔共的，照片出來了就說是DeepSeek，結果給調查局去鑑定，鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講，丟人現眼啊！丟人現眼啊！不是假訊息？不是深偽？法務部的報告半個字都不敢提！","現在綠色共諜攻占我們民主進步黨的府院黨，這個是在法務部報告的第幾類型？因為這在報告提到的那三個類型裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊，今天法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫，增設第四類型？部長，請回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是整理目前較多的、主要的類型來做報告。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣還不夠多喔？這樣還覺得少就對了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所謂綠色共諜橫行，這部分我們都有查緝，這也是根據我們的情資而查到的。"],["黃委員國昌：我們一個一個來啦，現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫得對不對、完不完整嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們寫得都很正確，就是把所有我們查證的類型呈現出來嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你嘛，這個是放在第幾類型？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果委員有指教的話，我們再來加強嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我就是有指教嘛！放不進你那三個類型嘛，就請你加強嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個類型的部分，我們這是主要的類型嘛，我們並沒有否認剛剛委員所講的類型。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們一步一步來！現在何仁傑遭到羈押，他是吳釗燮長期帶在身邊的親信啦！針對何仁傑洩漏國家機密這樣的犯行，目前的偵辦該不該一起偵辦吳釗燮？"],["鄭部長銘謙：吳秘書長有沒有這些的問題，我想這個我不會干涉、指導、介入個案……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官如果有證據的話，任何人只要涉及共諜，我想檢察知有犯罪嫌疑就會依法來偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：說得很好嘛！大家就接著看，看是不是有偵辦嘛。部長，你看一下，我上面寫的不是「要不要」交給檢察官，現在我在談的是規範的事情，是「該不該」嘛！之前我公開記者會講過了，在國安法裡面，就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過失犯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是有處罰過失犯，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：這個有處罰過失犯嘛！過失的態樣要如何來加以界定？應該注意沒有注意、能夠注意卻沒有注意，養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久，洩漏了國家機密，他有沒有注意義務？他有注意義務吧？他有盡到他的注意義務嗎？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個過失犯是指過失的洩漏、交付等等的這些行為嘛，而不是說旁邊有共諜的話，他就有那些構成過失犯……"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！現在部長在解釋法條的時候……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員的看法值得再討論……"],["黃委員國昌：順便就幫吳釗燮給開脫了嘛，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒什麼開脫啦，就是有合乎犯罪的構成要件時，檢察官在知有犯罪嫌疑時當然就會立案偵辦嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊，全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛，看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛，看有沒有雙標嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有雙標，就依法偵辦，有犯罪嫌疑就是依法嚴辦，不會有雙標問題。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們繼續往下看，何仁傑是受國家機密保護法第二十六條列管的對象，這個我去調過了，這個問題我問了非常久，發函給外交部，外交部是用普通件而不是用密件回函，所以確認了何仁傑是國家機密保護法第二十六條列管的對象。","下一個問題，針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作，今天局長有報告是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛，有一般的安全查核，有特殊的安全查核，就何仁傑的部分，他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一？"],["陳局長白立：何仁傑有經過一次的特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候？"],["陳局長白立：105年5月。"],["黃委員國昌：105年5月。局長，只有一次嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定，第五條第一項規定「各機關辦理特殊查核，應於擬任人員初任、再任或調任第二條所定職務前辦理完竣。」所以你講的2016年的查核，指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，他在2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有再查核？"],["陳局長白立：欸，這個部分當時……"],["黃委員國昌：有還是沒有？"],["陳局長白立：沒有再發函給我們查。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼沒有？按照法條的規定，不是應該要再辦查核嗎？"],["陳局長白立：那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們，我們是被動查核……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是總統府沒有通知？總統府秘書長室沒有通知，所以沒有辦？"],["陳局長白立：就有關何仁傑的部分，就是查過2016年的那一次。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！局長，我們是法律人，所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛，我們一條一條來，不要混在一起講啦。第一個，按照法律的規定，他從國安會轉到總統府秘書長室，需不需要再辦查核？"],["陳局長白立：按照法條的規定，他在初任、再任或是調任這個特殊查核職務的時候要辦理……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是不是調任？是嘛！"],["陳局長白立：應該要辦。"],["黃委員國昌：應該要辦嘛！說清楚嘛！法條規定應該要辦，卻沒有辦，現在我的問題來了，法條規定他轉任應該要辦，但是卻沒有提報上來要辦，這個責任誰要負？"],["陳局長白立：這個應該可能是總統府的人事單位……"],["黃委員國昌：推給人事機構的人，由最基層的人事機構的人扛責？"],["陳局長白立：機關要主動提出來……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！現在就是法規上應該要做，現實上沒有在做，所以我才請教你這件事情誰要負責嘛？還是沒有人需要負責，反正隨便寫寫啦？誰要負責？"],["陳局長白立：這個是人事行政總處。"],["黃委員國昌：人事行政總處要負責喔？哇，你這樣講，可能……"],["陳局長白立：法規是人事行政總處……"],["黃委員國昌：人事長在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍？啊？總統府秘書長室沒有報查核，結果是人事長要負責，這樣對嗎？"],["陳局長白立：法條是人事行政總處主管啦，但是這個……"],["黃委員國昌：好啦，沒有關係……"],["陳局長白立：查核是用人機關要主動提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：可能到時候主席再安排一下請人事長來啦，因為調查局局長說他要負責啦！"],["陳局長白立：沒有，我要講清楚，法條是人事行政總處主管，但是提出查核的是用人機關要主動提出。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，就是用人機關嘛！"],["陳局長白立：用人機關要主動提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎？到外交部的時候他有沒有再辦查核？沒有嘛，是不是沒有？"],["陳局長白立：到外交部要看他的職務是不是屬於那1,328個關鍵職務。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下啦，剛剛你講的那一千多種，我都幫你整理出來了嘛！外交部秘書、辦理部長室秘書業務人員、辦理部長室機要業務，這不就是何仁傑的位置嗎？到外交部的時候還有再辦特殊查核嗎？有嗎？沒有吧？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在變成什麼？用人機關要負責嘛！總統府秘書長要負責嘛，外交部部長要負責嘛，都是吳釗燮帶在身邊的人，辦一次查核後就都不用辦了，那不是吳釗燮要負責誰要負責？","再往下看，吳尚雨有沒有辦特殊查核？一樣啦，這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦，他有沒有辦特殊查核？有還是沒有？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核？放在副總統辦公室欸！"],["陳局長白立：用人機關……"],["黃委員國昌：處理機密業務欸，結果現在因為這個共諜案才發現原來我們的安全查核機制是形同具文啦！形同具文啦！不僅何仁傑，何仁傑只辦一次，吳尚雨是連辦都沒有辦過，誰要負責？誰要負責？用人機關要負責，剛剛你講的嘛，所以是賴清德要負責嗎？他辦公室的人啊！"],["陳局長白立：人事單位要負責。"],["黃委員國昌：人事單位要負責？又推給人事人員了！"],["陳局長白立：沒有，人事單位要主動函給我們來辦理特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是可以請調查局回去追究？今天發函給用人機關，依法該查核為什麼沒有查核？"],["陳局長白立：我們是被動的……"],["黃委員國昌：你如果連這件事情都不敢做，今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎？我們已經討論出來了嘛！"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，目前的機制我們是被動的來接受用人機關來函查核……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以我現在你問它當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核，這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎？法規上面應該要查核，現實上沒有查核，如果這樣不是個問題，那什麼是問題？如果這不是問題，什麼是問題？還是事涉我們現在的總統，很尷尬，問都不敢問？皮球踢來踢去，現在不曉得要怎麼踢，太尷尬了！現在被抓起來的這個連查核都沒查核啊！這不是檢討制度的問題而已，這是依照現在的制度，應該要做卻沒有做，但是我們負責查核的機關──法務部調查局顯然不敢追究責任啊！"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我知道嘛，所以我要你去追究責任嘛！"],["陳局長白立：在整個體制裡面我們是……"],["黃委員國昌：被動，我知道，所以……"],["陳局長白立：對，我們是被動的，但機關……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我要你發文去問用人機關啊！"],["陳局長白立：機關什麼時候要用人、要調什麼人，這個是機關人事的權限，我們也不會知道……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，你說的都對，所以我要你去問嘛！去問用人機關當初怎麼沒有報給調查局查核？"],["陳局長白立：我想這個不是我們調查局的職責。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是你們調查局？應該要報給你們卻沒有報，不是調查局的職責，是誰的職責？這才是最大的問題！"],["陳局長白立：用人機關的職責。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任，事情不就是這樣嗎？超級清楚的，沒有人敢去追究！","請教部長，洩密的對象，洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國，刑責上法定刑應不應該區別對待？贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責？贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是立法政策的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要廣納意見。"],["黃委員國昌：當初邱太三反對，他很明確反對，奇怪，我們的總統不是把中國講成是境外敵對勢力，洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰！結果現在法務部要強化國安、要防止洩密，連洩密給中國法定刑要提高，這件事情都不敢講，怕尷尬是不是？怕因為之前民進黨政府反對過？之前邱太三反對過，我第一次當立委的時候，為這件事情跟邱太三辯論過幾次，他反對，到院會表決的時候，民進黨一再阻擋、不處理，拖到2019年，不得不處理，最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺，難怪你今天只能夠軟軟地說要廣納社會意見，法務部連基本態度都不敢表達。被封殺了啦！你可以請幕僚把整個立法歷程整理給你看，在立法院公報裡面通通都有，我也利用機會公開呼籲，國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰！台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案，希望早點審議，到時候希望法務部能夠勇敢地支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},{"id":"160391","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160391","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c87be4c6bc5ef6e08cf4553849aeee05e4a7b5a1fcb72359eb19d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:28:11 - 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謝謝主席 我們有請林佳龍部長部長早 辛苦了部長 我們台灣護照根據這個最新的2025年的亨利護照指數顯示我們名列這個全世界第34名是可免簽通行139個旅遊的一個目的地那我想在此"},{"start":29.74,"end":57.513,"text":"來就叫我們部長,台灣護照排名提升越來越好用那目前我們正在爭取的相關互惠的免簽、自動通關待遇還有相關的這些與其他國家的一個互惠的方式近期內是否會有增加的機會那可否請教部長是否可以透露有可能是哪些區域或是哪些國家有可能會有好消息"},{"start":59.621,"end":78.674,"text":"我們在東南亞也有一些在進行中國家那就是因為免簽也涉及到因為有一些簽證費用的處理那這當然是互惠雙向的一個進行那因為我們也給東南亞有一些國家"},{"start":80.315,"end":102.111,"text":"因為基於觀光或其他的這些包括各種的移工進出等等的方便讓我們向對方國家也能夠基於對等的原則來辦理另外當然就是說在包括其實因為像主要的民主國家我們大概都有免簽了不管是美日或者是像歐盟"},{"start":103.232,"end":126.019,"text":"但是有一些像在不管是中東或者是非洲還有其他 雖然是往來沒有那麼頻繁不過這個就是一個如果能夠免簽那也會促進雙方面的交流包括商務或觀光所以我們也是跟很多國家在溝通那台灣是大家都喜歡來那怎麼樣基於這個對等"},{"start":128.46,"end":143.948,"text":"互惠的原則我們也一一在檢視所以也希望說能夠再不斷的增加免簽的對象國家另外一個就是因為現在很多都是用電子簽或其他的方式或落地簽這也都在我們努力的範圍"},{"start":147.145,"end":168.054,"text":"本年度我們外交部的業務費還有美宣費還有旅費被煽動包括外交部領事事務局的預算其中有一條1.2億的部分這筆預算主要是用於購置空白護照那刪減後僅能支應購買185萬本的空白護照"},{"start":172.296,"end":198.078,"text":"那如果今年國人申辦護照依然像往年這麼踴躍的話我們推估在這個今年的十月底左右,空白護照安全存量就會吃緊那我想就叫部長就是依目前的這個實際的情況預算執行的情形那我們空白護照與印發的這個作業是否會受到影響那影響的情形我們該如何來因應"},{"start":199.204,"end":213.845,"text":"是 各位委員報告確實因為預算的三獲動尤其在護照的部分我們內部的估計大概到十月可能就沒有辦法再印製所以這個部分我請領務局是不是來更詳細說明一下"},{"start":216.298,"end":233.392,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝委員林務局報告這樣子 因為我們在去年我們預估我們會印280萬本結果我們總共印了286萬本那今年呢 我們現在1到3月應該說到3月底 甚至到上個禮拜我們總共合發了大概69萬本"},{"start":234.733,"end":247.601,"text":"那也就是說今年依照我們的預估是可以應該要核發209萬本那依照這樣的一個速度來看的話我們大概短缺是15到20萬本剛剛委員有提到"},{"start":250.262,"end":278.007,"text":"那這一部分呢因為我們有所謂的安全存量這有點類似說家裡面都有安全的存款這樣子那這會造成一個卯池飲糧的一個現象就是說我們會把我們的安全存量停錢把它用盡用完那這一部分我們領務局已經考慮到了我們會跟我們護照供應商中央印製廠來做一個密切的聯繫或許我們早一點展開這個所謂的招標工作等等來因應以上報告"},{"start":278.587,"end":298.669,"text":"安全存量就可以因應十月份以後我們的安全存量大概是一估兩個月那一個月大概是20到25萬本也就是說我們的安全存量是大概四五十萬本那因為到十月底如果用完的話那可能我們到12月就真的一本都不剩了所以我們要提早作業這個部分"},{"start":300.171,"end":321.89,"text":"好,那我想再就教就是這個依據我們之前的相關領照的一個數據五一勞動節的這個前後會是一個這個換照的一個高峰期那我們領務局的各辦事處是否已經提前做好準備對於各地申辦的這個量能我們是不是已經都準備充足了?"},{"start":326.062,"end":339.213,"text":"五一勞動節確實因為我們勞工朋友依照勞基法勞動基準法他是放假的但我們公務機關並沒有放假所以這個對我們那個護照的就修建跟合法都是一個非常大的挑戰"},{"start":340.013,"end":360.89,"text":"那跟委員報告事實上從每年的3月到5月都是我們護照核發的一個高峰期因為民眾有在暑期出國的一個必要所以5月1號是一個特殊的日子但是對我們來講3到5月都是一個非常高的高峰期那本局就是外交部領事處局跟我們外交部四個辦事處都做好相應的準備"},{"start":361.65,"end":387.734,"text":"那我們的同仁現在其實都已經在加班然後假日也必須要來加班因為這個工作負荷相當的重不過外交部所有的同仁都有信心要來應付這樣一個挑戰謝謝好那我想針對這個護照的部分我請外交部能夠持續的來做好相關的準備讓台灣的護照可以在國際上的使用更加的這個便利也可以持續的精進讓這個民眾要換發的過程裡面還有"},{"start":391.876,"end":410.377,"text":"這個申辦的過程能夠更加的便利性那另外我想就叫部長就是對於我們這個友邦的相關問題的一個討論那在這個立陶宛他在這個2021年的時候允許台灣在他的首都設立以台灣為名的一個代表處"},{"start":411.638,"end":436.655,"text":"引發中國的不滿對於立陶宛祭出外交與經濟的制裁立陶宛的總理帕魯克是在去年底上任之後多次表示希望能夠和中國恢復外交關係近期也傳出與中國恢復外交關係的對話已經在進行當中立陶宛是否可能迫於中國的壓力"},{"start":437.997,"end":441.825,"text":"更改台灣的代表出名稱,進一步影響到台灣和立陶宛的雙邊關係"},{"start":444.272,"end":464.977,"text":"報告委員 立陶宛政府包括總理他們也都對他表示立陶宛跟中國在諮商是不是在恢復大使館或一些外交的關係他不會以更改台灣我們的代表處的名稱來迎合"},{"start":471.559,"end":491.389,"text":"那這個部分因為也是我想他們政府也是延續的那也有對外表示他們不會再壓力下去做這個更名未來這數年也都會維持就是我們這個所謂的Taiwanese Residential Office這樣的一個住管的名稱"},{"start":492.796,"end":520.765,"text":"那另外南非的部分這個南非政府惡意打壓那片面的要求台灣代表處遷離首都並且在3月試圖將我們這個聯絡代表處降級更改為商務代表處那目前我們雙方針對這個部分的協商進度為何如果這個南非的執政政府執意要改變現狀的話那我們後續的會有如何的一個因應的作為"},{"start":521.746,"end":531.223,"text":"而且這個中國動作頻頻,那我們應該如何來避免這種效益會擴散進一步影響到導致這個骨牌效應的出現"},{"start":534.821,"end":546.268,"text":"確實南非在中國的壓力之下企圖要求我們牽管、更名還有矮化我們駐地的一些權限"},{"start":553.852,"end":573.969,"text":"不過經過不斷的交涉在他們原先訂這是三月底嘛必須要簽管但目前不沒有再持續這樣的要求我們也瞭解因為我們也訴求就是說我們要讓南非政府瞭解這個我們"},{"start":575.03,"end":601.875,"text":"互設代表處是基於1997年兩國政府達成的這個結略就是協議這裡面白紙黑字都在要任何的更改必須雙面雙方來對談所以沒有啟動這個程序就擅自單方面的去更改對台的關係這是違反雙方的這個協議那這個也是南非很多友人他們據以力爭"},{"start":603.255,"end":620.579,"text":"就是南非還是一個法治國家他就不能夠自己違法那當然在這個過程當中我們怎麼樣能夠說之以理雖然我們這是有法的依據那我們也是不卑不亢所以就這整件事情來講這快一年來我們的應處也讓南非這麼感受到我們的堅持"},{"start":627.621,"end":652.412,"text":"我們不會去在壓力下妥協可是呢我們也是很理性的希望跟他來溝通怎麼共同來去應對可能南非面對的壓力那我想這個基於這次的經驗我想對外交同仁來講也是一個很大的激勵我們不是一定就是零和我們就是必須在說是我們有我們的這個"},{"start":656.795,"end":676.43,"text":"說裡以外要得到國際的支持所以包括美國包括歐洲很多國家其實包括日本等都是透過他們正式的外交管道有表達對這個史詩的關心所以我想這一件事情啊也讓我們台灣的外交空間不但沒有受到打壓而且得到更多國際的一個支持"},{"start":681.09,"end":706.017,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘我想再就教部長最後一個問題就是這個2023年3月的時候洪都拉斯與我國斷交那今年底他們將進行這個大選那傳出有許多位的在野候選人也都希望能夠繼續跟台灣來恢復邦交的關係那針對這個部分我們外交部是不是有掌握到相關的這個情勢是否有可能會與洪都拉斯再復交的可能"},{"start":707.183,"end":729.738,"text":"報告委員確實有洪都拉斯的總統參選人有表示如果他們勝選會恢復跟台灣的邦交當然我們這是歡迎不過我想這個因為我們也是密切在關注對於這個尤其是中美洲特別是在美國川普政府尤其是那個國務卿盧比奧"},{"start":731.659,"end":750.641,"text":"他訪問之後的影響因為他在瓜地馬拉跟這個阿聯酋總統的記者會裡面公開肯定瓜地馬拉維持跟台灣的邦交國而且也肯定台灣持續的增加對瓜地馬拉的不管是投資或是援助那我們把邦交國的關係做好"},{"start":751.001,"end":767.568,"text":"也會讓更多的友邦跟台灣就是包括恢復邦交這裡面一個很重要影響宏都拉斯的就是所謂的他的白蝦這個產業現在是很慘整個是瓦解掉我們也在支持旁邊國家的貝里斯"},{"start":768.428,"end":787.717,"text":"已經得到衛福部派船去做很多茶廠檢疫近期內已經都陸續的完成程序我們的榮邦計畫也是透過這樣的方式因為台灣的業者也很需要進口大量的白蝦甚至龍蝦所以我們的台灣是有一定的經濟實力我們幫助友邦能夠繁榮而且以跟台灣友邦交國為榮"},{"start":793.32,"end":808.66,"text":"這也是榮邦計畫我們現在用經濟外交來讓很多國家比如說我們在南美洲有巴拉圭那把巴拉圭的這個榮邦計畫做好之後周邊國家他想跟我們談的時候就很簡單我說如果你跟台灣建交或會晤邦交我們就比照辦理"},{"start":809.922,"end":830.343,"text":"這個就是我們現在的經濟外交籠幫計畫整個發揮的一個效果那這個我想對台灣來講現在的不管經濟科技的實力我們的各種的台灣發展經驗已經可以很多友邦他們有興趣的已經不是一般的員外比方他們來台灣參觀我們的這個所謂的智慧城市展"},{"start":832.645,"end":853.452,"text":"電腦展 還有半導體展 AI展他們都覺得 台灣的包括我們智慧城市的解決方案他們也想要整體的能夠應用在他國家所以這個是我們的國家隊所謂的心驗型聯合艦隊就包括了非常多我們包括像電信的公司 中華電信或者是涉及到一些科技的像工研院 資策會"},{"start":855.913,"end":874.367,"text":"那當然外貿協會就是我們標準的我們這個所謂的聯合艦隊裡面的我們的成員這種方式我們也感覺到有亮點可以這個作為示範計畫在巴拉圭的這一個台巴的科技台巴的智慧科技園區即將這個已經就是整地完成在建廠這個都是新的榮邦計畫的模式以上再補充 謝謝"},{"start":883.894,"end":893.356,"text":"那我們也期待藉由部長的這個新的外交策略來帶領我們台灣在外交空間能夠尋求新的一個突破謝謝部長好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":106,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時28分）謝謝主席，我們有請林佳龍部長。部長早，辛苦了。部長，根據最新2025年的亨利護照指數顯示，我們臺灣護照名列全世界第34名。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：可免簽通行139個旅遊目的地，我想在此就教部長，臺灣護照排名提升，越來越好用，目前我們正在爭取相關的互惠免簽、自動通關待遇，還有與其他國家的互惠方式，近期內是否會有增加的機會？請教部長是否可以透露，有可能是哪些區域或是哪些國家會有好消息？"],["林部長佳龍：我們在東南亞也有一些在進行中的國家，因為免簽也涉及到簽證費用的處理，這當然是互惠雙向的進行，因為我們也給一些東南亞國家基於觀光或其他包括各種移工進出等等的方便，我們也希望對方國家也能夠基於對等原則來辦理。另外，其實我們在主要的民主國家大概都有免簽了，不管是美日或者是歐盟，但是有一些國家，像中東或非洲，還有其他地方，雖然往來沒有那麼頻繁，如果能免簽的話，也會促進雙方交流，不管是商務或觀光，所以我們也跟很多國家溝通，畢竟大家都喜歡來臺灣。因此，如何基於對等互惠原則不斷增加免簽的國家，我們也一一在檢視。另外，現在很多國家都採用電子簽或落地簽或其他方式，這些也都在我們努力的範圍。"],["陳委員俊宇：本年度外交部業務費、媒宣費及旅費均被刪凍，而外交部領事事務局預算中，有1.2億預算主要用於購置空白護照，刪減後僅能支應購買185萬本空白護照。如果今年國人申辦護照依然像往年踴躍的話，推估在今年10月底左右空白護照安全存量就會吃緊。我想就教部長，依目前預算實際執行情形來看，空白護照的印發作業是否會受到影響？針對受影響情形又該如何因應？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，針對預算刪或凍之影響，尤其是護照部分，我們內部估計大概到10月可能就無法再印製。這部分我請領務局向委員做詳細說明。"],["陳代理局長尚友：謝謝部長，謝謝委員，領務局報告。去年我們原本預估印280萬本，結果總共印了286萬本；今年1月到3月，應該說到3月底、甚至是上個禮拜為止，我們總共核發大概69萬本。也就是說，今年依照我們的預估，應該可以核發209萬本，據此速度來看，約短缺15到20萬本，這點剛才委員有提到。即使我們有所謂的安全存量，類似家裡的安全存款，但這樣子一來還是會卯吃寅糧，把安全存量提前用罄。對此，領務局已經考慮到了，所以會跟護照供應商──中央印製廠密切聯繫，或許可以早點展開招標工作以為因應。以上報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以安全存量足以因應10月份以後的不足？"],["陳代理局長尚友：我們的安全存量大概預估兩個月，一個月大概是20萬到25萬本。也就是說，我們的安全存量大概50萬本，若10月底用完的話，可能12月就真的一本都不剩了，所以這部分我們要提早作業。"],["陳委員俊宇：依據之前的領照數據顯示，五一勞動節前後是換照高峰期，領務局各辦事處是否已經提前做好準備？各地的申辦量能是否均準備充足？"],["林部長佳龍：請局長再說明。"],["陳代理局長尚友：謝謝部長。報告委員，依照勞動基準法，五一勞動節勞工朋友是放假的，但公務機關並沒有放假，所以對我們護照的收件與核發都是一個非常大的挑戰！跟委員報告，事實上，每年的3月到5月都是護照核發的高峰期，因為民眾在暑期有出國的必要，所以5月1號是一個特殊的日子，但對我們來講，3月到5月都是非常高的高峰期。本局（外交部領事事務局）與外交部四個辦事處都做好相應準備，我們的同仁現在也都已經在加班，甚至連假日也必須來加班。雖然工作負荷相當重，不過外交部所有同仁都有信心應付這樣的挑戰，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：針對護照部分，請外交部持續做好相關準備，讓臺灣護照在國際上的使用可以更加便利，同時持續精進，讓民眾在換發護照及申辦過程能更具便利性。","另外就教部長有關我們友邦相關的問題。立陶宛在2021年允許臺灣於其首都設立以臺灣為名的代表處，引發中國不滿，故對立陶宛祭出外交與經濟制裁！立陶宛總理帕魯克斯在去年底上任之後，多次表示希望能和中國恢復外交關係，近期也傳出與中國恢復外交關係的對話已經在進行當中。請問立陶宛是否可能迫於中國壓力，更改臺灣代表處名稱，進一步影響到臺灣和立陶宛的雙邊關係？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，立陶宛政府，包括總理在內都對外表示，立陶宛在與中國諮商是不是恢復設立大使館或外交關係上，不會以更改臺灣代表處的名稱來迎合中國。他們政府是延續的，也對外表示不會在壓力下去更名，且未來數年都會維持，也就是我們The Taiwanese Representative Office的駐館名稱。"],["陳委員俊宇：在南非部分，南非政府惡意打壓，片面要求臺灣代表處遷離首都，並在3月試圖將我們聯絡代表處降級更改為商務代表處。目前雙方針對這部分的協商進度為何？若南非執政政府執意要改變現狀的話，我們後續會有如何的因應作為？中國動作頻頻，我們應該如何避免這種效應擴散，甚至進一步產生影響，導致骨牌效應的出現？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，確實，我想南非是在中國的壓力之下，企圖要求我們遷館更名，並矮化我們外交駐地的一些權限。但經過不斷交涉，他們原先要求我們3月底要遷館，目前並沒有再持續這樣的要求。我們也訴求讓南非政府了解，互設代表處係基於1997年兩國政府達成的協議，裡面白紙黑字，要做任何更改，必須雙方來對談。因此，沒有啟動這個程序就擅自單方面更改對臺關係，是違反雙方協議，且很多南非友人亦據理力爭，南非畢竟還是一個法治國家，不能自己違法！當然在過程當中，看我們怎麼樣說之以理，雖然我們於法有據，我們不卑不亢。就這整件事情來講，將近一年時間裡，我們的應處讓南非政府感受到我們的堅持！我們不會在壓力下妥協，但我們也是很理性的希望跟他溝通，看怎麼共同應對南非所可能面對的壓力。這一次經驗對外交同仁來講，也是一個很大的激勵！我們不一定要零和，除了說理以外，我們也要得到國際社會的支持，包括美國、歐洲很多國家，包括日本等等，都透過正式外交管道表達對此事的關心。我想在這件事情裡，臺灣的外交空間不但沒有受到打壓，反而得到更多國際的支持。"],["陳委員俊宇：主席，再給我一分鐘。我再就教部長最後一個問題，2023年3月，宏都拉斯與我國斷交。今年底宏都拉斯將進行大選，傳出有多位在野候選人都希望跟臺灣恢復邦交關係，針對這部分，外交部是不是有掌握到相關情勢？是否有可能會與宏都拉斯再復交？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，確實有宏都拉斯的總統參選人有表示，如果他們勝選會恢復跟臺灣的邦交，當然我們是歡迎，不過我們也是密切關注，尤其是對於中美洲，特別是在美國川普政府國務卿Rubio訪問之後的影響，因為他在瓜地馬拉跟阿雷瓦洛總統的記者會裡面，公開肯定瓜地馬拉維持跟臺灣的邦交國，而且也肯定臺灣持續增加對瓜地馬拉不管是投資或是援助。我們把邦交國的關係做好，也會讓更多的友邦跟臺灣恢復邦交。這裡面一個很重要影響宏都拉斯的就是它的白蝦產業，現在很慘，整個瓦解掉。我們也在支持旁邊國家的貝里斯，已經得到衛福部派團去做查廠檢疫，近期內都已經陸續完成程序。我們的榮邦計畫也是透過這樣的方式，因為臺灣的業者也很需要進口大量的白蝦，甚至龍蝦，所以我們臺灣有一定的經濟實力，我們幫助友邦能夠繁榮，而且以跟臺灣有邦交國為榮，這也是榮邦計畫。我們現在用經濟外交讓很多國家，比如說，我們在南美洲有巴拉圭，把巴拉圭的榮邦計畫做好之後，周邊國家想跟我們談的時候就很簡單。我說如果跟臺灣建交或恢復邦交，我們就比照辦理，這個就是我們現在的經濟外交榮邦計畫整個發揮的效果。我想對臺灣來講，現在不管經濟、科技的實力，臺灣各種發展經驗已經可以給很多友邦。他們有興趣的已經不是一般的援外，比方他們來臺灣參觀我們的智慧城市展、電腦展，還有半導體展、AI展，他們都覺得臺灣包括智慧城市的解決方案，他們也想要能夠整體應用在他們國家。所以這個時候，我們的國家隊，就是所謂的新國際雁行聯合艦隊就包括非常多電信公司，像中華電信，或者是涉及到一些科技的，像工研院、資策會，當然外貿協會就是我們標準的聯合艦隊裡面的成員，這種方式我們也感覺到有亮點，可以作為示範計畫，在巴拉圭的臺巴智慧科技園區已經整地完成，在建廠了，這個都是新的榮邦計畫模式，以上再補充，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們也期待藉由部長新的外交策略，帶領我們臺灣在外交空間能夠尋求一個新的突破，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：謝謝陳委員質詢。繼續請黃仁委員提出質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}},{"id":"160390","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160390","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8baa51efa67aea4f0f4553849aeee05e49a3354dc8dbd3a62db89229dbbe34e855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:16:17 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部長在上個禮拜呢這個國民黨的青年軍這個成員叫宋建良的他因為在罷免李昆城委員李昆城委員的這個連署案因為涉嫌偽造文書然後遭到新北地檢署的這個約談那在遺訟復訊的時候呢他帶著這個有納粹符號的這個備章還有手持希特勒的這個著作然後比出這個納粹的這個敬禮的手而手勢引起這個社會的這個嘩然"},{"start":49.927,"end":55.254,"text":"那當然這個德國在台協會呢認為這個行為是非常的無恥喔那以色列駐台代表處也表達了這個嚴重的強烈的這個譴責那這件事情其實呢不單單是對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的這個衝擊那也影響到我們跟德國還有以色列等國的這個外交的這個邦誼喔"},{"start":69.19,"end":75.933,"text":"那其實我們除了這次的事件之外呢其實像過去其實國內陸續也發生過極其類似就是霧彩國際紅線的這個行為例如前幾年就有某一間這個高中在校慶的時候表演這個就是穿著表演的時候穿著這個納粹的這個服飾然後模仿這個德軍軍衛隊受教業的這個場景那像在2011年的時候其實也有"},{"start":98.865,"end":114.946,"text":"学生在参加国防部的战斗营的时候也是身穿纳税的军服等等所以为了避免类似的情形发生我们外交部对这个部分我们要如何对这些年轻的孩子做一个再教育"},{"start":115.286,"end":119.029,"text":"因為當然我們知道教育部在一些歷史課本有提到關於納粹的過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟一些迫害可是好像還是有些國內的孩子似乎不太了解他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼的清楚像外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候都必須要跟外管"},{"start":140.446,"end":163.225,"text":"這個德國或是納粹或是跟國際來做道歉甚至說呼籲國人該怎麼做該要尊重他國的這個文化的這個歷史可是當然他呼籲我本席覺得應該是不足的應該是不足的我們如何要對這些孩子們予以這個教育這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已部長是委員我同意這個"},{"start":167.863,"end":182.698,"text":"對於這個這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責我們用這麼重就是嚴正的譴責也是要就是有個機會教育要讓國人也跟國際都了解我們在對於這一個"},{"start":185.02,"end":198.826,"text":"用納稅的符號跟旗幟那麼濫用我們自由法治社會的一個言論的自由受到憲法的保障但是這一些是"},{"start":201.047,"end":222.947,"text":"這個不只是說負面的意義這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責另外一方面也是透過我們跟包括很多的活動包括像這個有關於這個"},{"start":224.848,"end":242.193,"text":"納稅大屠殺這樣的一個反思包括舉辦活動包括像Holocaust這些讓更多人的了解除了學校教育要加強以外我們在社會各個層面也必須對於使用納稅的這種過去殘害人類的"},{"start":246.494,"end":256.772,"text":"符號跟旗幟其實是表達絕不容忍也不會就是說讓這樣的事情在台灣就是發展"},{"start":259.231,"end":283.936,"text":"對 因為我剛剛有提到了 每次發生這個事情外交部就必須要站出來 像剛剛部長所提到了就譴責啊 那不然就辦一些活動其實我們也必須要讓國人知道 就像部長剛才所講的其實言論自由 其實它是有界限的那我們有盤點過幾個國家 尤其像德國德國它是明文禁止使用 就是說"},{"start":284.796,"end":292.539,"text":"有納粹標誌的這些任何的這個物品那再來也禁止穿著這納粹的軍服使用納粹敬禮宣揚納粹主義德國是還是明文禁止不然的話違反者他將以煽動種族仇恨的這個罪名來起訴那法國的話如果你出犯了以上的這些行為的話其實他是有罰款的那奧地利呢甚至呢他是處於一年以上十年以下有期徒刑情節嚴重的等於處於二十年的有期徒刑"},{"start":312.088,"end":332.702,"text":"那澳洲也是一樣他2025年透過的反仇恨犯罪法他最高是可處十二徒刑那泰國曾經也是發現像亞洲的泰國像之前有一個女子團體呢他在彩排的時候穿著納粹的這個萬字圖案的這個衣服那之後呢他還必須要向這個以色列大使來道歉而且呢共同舉辦教育活動像這個部分的話在台灣可能真的就比較少了"},{"start":338.356,"end":356.781,"text":"當這些人他在就像部長所說的也許是無知也許是無知那可是我們要讓他們如何了解像國外的話他其實是一個禁忌耶可是台灣的話不能只有外交部一代的道歉譴責而已那國人也必須要有所教育讓他們知道說"},{"start":359.002,"end":370.658,"text":"其實你已經踩了國際的這個紅線所以這部分的話我在想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同我們是不是來舉辦一些教育活動讓這些年輕的孩子知道說其實你已經抵觸了這個國際的這個紅線了"},{"start":374.322,"end":401.932,"text":"這是本席的這個建議啦那再來呢我想請教一下就是說在上個月底的時候緬甸呢發生了規模7.7的這個強烈地震我們看到呢有很多的這個官方跟民間的這個單位他有發起了對緬甸地震災區的這個震災的捐款活動那當然要在捐款之前必須要跟這個衛福部社會救助司這邊來申請合法的這個勸募的這個活動本席想請教一下像這些上款"},{"start":403.433,"end":424.758,"text":"到國外去 我們有哪個單位在監督嗎 請問部長當然因為要勸募必須向衛福部登記有主管機關的監督那如果涉外因為我們外管尤其是如果以我們政府發起的當然我們會嚴格的來落實這些監督那有些民間"},{"start":425.898,"end":437.826,"text":"他們的不管是善款或善刑透過非政府組織或其他的方式他們可能是以實際的行動表達對於這些災害他們的關心跟援助這個部分我們會盡量的來去也要宣導一方面協助同時讓他們了解因為這都涉及到勸募的行為"},{"start":456.199,"end":472.291,"text":"為什麼本席會這麼問像之前我們土耳其發生大政的時候其實有很多善款流到台灣中心去結果後來這個善款到底是如何使用的後來去向不明所以這一次緬甸的"},{"start":475.193,"end":491.842,"text":"雖然發生了大政可是有很多民眾其實有在擔心他捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建那會不會說不知情之下甚至會流入軍政府手中呢作為一級的資金等等都有這些聲音出來所以這次緬甸的這個大政我們發現就是說"},{"start":493.143,"end":521.983,"text":"民眾很有疑慮因為大家都很擔心說之前土耳其大政的時候國人有透過這個募資平台來募款那這台灣中心到後來錢到哪裡去了完全不知道國人很擔心這件事情會發生所以我剛才就在提到就是說那部長有提到了如果是政府這邊來辦理的募款也許你們有所可以監督可是民間呢民間的捐款到國外去我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶是"},{"start":522.683,"end":536.824,"text":"其實我們在第一時間除了跟緬甸方面聯繫希望派遣救災人員過去因為也涉及到他們沒有接受那我們就支持民間包括很多的慈善基金會他們進入"},{"start":539.487,"end":564.217,"text":"他們比較有經驗以外其實很多台商這個台商的協會或聯誼會他們也有在地的人脈所以我們就用間接的方式來協助那另外僑委會在第一時間也有跟台商會來聯繫所以這些都是表達我們對於這些就是不管是救災、震災的關懷跟協助那可是呢確實在有一些國家它比較"},{"start":565.918,"end":588.451,"text":"就是比較不上軌道尤其是涉及到這些善款的利用我們也記取過去的經驗我們怎麼樣去實質的幫助到需要幫助的人而不是只是給錢因為錢就是會產生非常執行的問題那在海外有時候啦真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚的去監督到每一筆錢的流向"},{"start":589.791,"end":611.321,"text":"如果我們跟NGO或跟台商會的合作他們至少是一個在台灣算是有一定的代表性的社團這個也能夠達到援助的一個目標但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須要接受嚴格的監督這個是要做一些區別的"},{"start":612.815,"end":629.522,"text":"部長是這樣子喔因為剛剛部長還是在提這對於這個民間單位的這個募款目前說實在聽起來是我們這個監督單位的系統是還沒有建立起來海外喔真的是因為我們多次其實包括在東南亞發生的很多災害過程真的也是很熱"},{"start":630.402,"end":633.484,"text":"這是國人的愛心但是在執行面會有一些落差因為畢竟他那些國家法制比較欠缺會有時候中間人像你在緬甸來講就好幾個政府了所以這次緬甸的捐款國人很有疑慮要錢拿去用在哪裡或者是這個都會造成無法去追蹤"},{"start":653.656,"end":675.095,"text":"所以避免國人的愛心被有心人所利用我想外交部跟有關單位相關單位應該要來建立一個比較有系統的這個管道如何去監督這筆錢否則國人還是有疑慮畢竟土耳其的事情之前也發生了台灣中心大家都還以為是台灣的政府"},{"start":675.675,"end":692.883,"text":"成立的一個 因為他用台灣中心實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了所有的建設也都不知道在哪邊所以這個部分的話我想這部分應該外交部也要來加強跟各個單位來做一個討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用好 以上謝謝好 謝謝韋爺謝謝陸美齡委員上台質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":81,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時16分）謝謝主席，有請林佳龍部長。","部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，上個禮拜國民黨青年軍成員宋建樑因為在罷免李坤城委員的連署案涉嫌偽造文書而遭到新北地檢署約談，在移送複訊的時候，他戴著有納粹符號的臂章，還有手持希特勒的著作，然後比出納粹敬禮的手勢，引起社會譁然。當然，德國在台協會認為這個行為非常的無恥，以色列駐臺代表處也表達了嚴重的、強烈的譴責，這件事情不單單對我國的國際形象造成很嚴重的衝擊，也影響到我們跟德國、以色列等國的外交邦誼。","除了這次的事件之外，其實過去國內陸續也發生過幾起類似誤踩國際紅線的行為，例如前幾年就有某一間高中在校慶表演的時候穿著納粹服飾、模仿德軍親衛隊受校閱的場景；像在2011年的時候，其實也有學生在參加國防部戰鬥營的時候身穿納粹軍服等等。","為了避免類似的情形發生，外交部就這個部分要如何對這些年輕的孩子做一個再教育？當然我們知道，像教育部在一些歷史課本有提到，關於納粹過去對人類歷史的一些蹂躪跟迫害，但有些國內的孩子似乎還是不太了解，他們實際上對納粹行為不是那麼清楚。而外交部每次遇到這種狀況的時候，都必須要跟外館、德國或是國際來做道歉，甚至呼籲國人該怎麼做、該要尊重他國的文化與歷史。但是本席覺得呼籲應該是不足的，我們要如何對這些孩子們予以教育？這部分我們不能一再的道歉跟呼籲而已，部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我同意，對於這件事件外交部在第一時間就表達嚴正的譴責，我們用這麼重，就是嚴正的譴責，也是要有個機會教育，要讓國人跟國際都了解，使用納粹的符號跟旗幟，是濫用我們自由法治社會中受到憲法保障的言論自由，這不只是負面的意義，這種對於歷史的無知可能會持續造成傷害，所以我們必須要利用這個事件嚴正的譴責。另外一方面，我們透過很多活動，包括納粹大屠殺的反思、舉辦活動，也包括像holocaust這一些，讓更多人了解，除了學校教育要加強以外，我們在社會各個層面也必須對於過去使用納粹、殘害人類的符號跟旗幟表達絕不容忍，也不會讓這樣的事情在臺灣發展。"],["羅委員美玲：對，我剛剛有提到了，每次發生這個事情，外交部就必須要站出來，像剛剛部長所提到的譴責，不然就是辦一些活動，我們也必須要讓國人知道，就像部長剛才所講的，言論自由是有界限的。我們有盤點過幾個國家，尤其像德國，德國是明文禁止使用有納粹標誌的任何物品，也禁止穿著納粹的軍服、使用納粹敬禮、宣揚納粹主義，在德國是明文禁止的，違反者將以煽動種族仇恨的罪名起訴；法國的話，如果觸犯以上這些行為，其實他們是有罰鍰的；奧地利甚至是處一年以上，十年以下有期徒刑，情節嚴重得處二十年的有期徒刑；澳洲也是一樣，他們2025年通過反仇恨犯罪法，最高可處十二個月的徒刑；泰國，曾經也發生在亞洲的泰國，之前有一個女子團體在彩排時穿著納粹的卐字圖案衣服，之後他們必須要向以色列大使道歉，而且共同舉辦教育活動，像這個部分在臺灣可能真的就比較少了，當這些人他在……就像部長所說的，也許是無知，可是我們要如何讓他們了解。像國外的話，它其實是一個禁忌，可是在臺灣不能只有外交部一再的道歉、譴責而已，也必須對國人有所教育，讓他們知道，其實這已經是踩了國際的紅線。所以我想外交部跟教育部是不是應該共同來舉辦一些教育活動，讓這些年輕的孩子知道，其實這已經抵觸了國際的紅線，這是本席的建議。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["羅委員美玲：再來，我想請教一下，上個月底緬甸發生了規模7.7的強烈地震，我們看到有很多官方跟民間單位發起了對緬甸地震災區的賑災捐款活動，當然在捐款之前必須要跟衛福部社會救助司申請合法的勸募活動，本席想請教一下，像這些善款到國外去，我們有哪個單位在監督嗎？請問部長。"],["林部長佳龍：當然，因為勸募必須向衛福部登記……"],["羅委員美玲：是，對。"],["林部長佳龍：有主管機關的監督，如果涉外……因為我們外館，尤其是我們政府發起的，當然我們會嚴格落實監督，有些民間善款或善行透過非政府組織或其他的方式，他們可能是以實際行動表達對於這些災害的關心跟援助，這部分我們會儘量去宣導，一方面也是協助，同時讓他們了解，因為這都涉及勸募的行為，必須依法辦理。"],["羅委員美玲：為什麼本席會這麼問，之前土耳其發生大震的時候，其實有很多善款流到臺灣中心去，後來這個善款到底是如何使用的？因為去向不明，所以這次緬甸雖然發生了大震，可是其實有很多民眾擔心他們捐出去的錢到底有沒有用在重建？會不會甚至在不知情之下流入軍政府手中，作為異己的資金等等，都有這些聲音出來。這次緬甸的大震，我們發現民眾很有疑慮，因為大家都很擔心之前土耳其大震時，國人透過募資平臺來募款，後來完全不知道臺灣中心的錢到哪裡去了，國人很擔心這件事情會發生。所以我剛才提到，部長也有提到，如果是由政府辦理的募款，也許你們可以監督，可是民間呢？民間捐款到國外去，我們發現好像沒有監督單位耶！這部分的話……"],["林部長佳龍：是，我跟委員報告，其實我們在第一時間跟緬甸方面聯繫，希望派遣救災人員過去，也因為他們沒有接受，所以我們就支持民間，包括很多的慈善基金會，他們除了比較有經驗以外，其實很多臺商協會或聯誼會也有在地的人脈，因此我們就用間接的方式協助。另外，僑委會在第一時間也有跟臺商會聯繫，這些都是表達我們對於這些救災、賑災的關懷跟協助。可是確實有一些國家比較不上軌道，尤其是涉及這些善款的利用，我們也記取過去的經驗，該怎麼樣實質幫助到需要幫助的人，而不只是給錢，因為錢就是會產生非常多的執行問題，在海外有時候真的是沒有辦法像國內那麼清楚監督到每一筆錢的流向。如果由我們跟NGO或臺商會合作，他們在臺灣至少是有一定代表性的社團，這也能夠達到援助的目標，但是我們政府任何的捐款都必須接受嚴格監督，這個是要做一些區別的。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，是這樣子的，因為剛剛部長還是在提對於民間單位的募款，目前說實在的，聽起來是我們監督單位的系統還沒有建立起來……"],["林部長佳龍：海外真的是……因為其實多次在東南亞發生的災害，國人真的也是很熱切的關懷……"],["羅委員美玲：是，就是國人的愛心……"],["林部長佳龍：但是在執行面會有一些落差，畢竟他們那些國家的法制比較欠缺，有時候中間人……像在緬甸來講，就有好幾個政府了，除了軍政府之外，各地又被割據……"],["羅委員美玲：是啊，所以這次緬甸的捐款，國人很有疑慮……"],["林部長佳龍：錢被拿去用在哪裡都會造成無法追蹤……"],["羅委員美玲：為了避免國人的愛心被有心人利用，我想外交部跟有關單位、相關單位應該要建立一個比較有系統的管道，思考如何去監督這筆錢，否則國人還是有疑慮，畢竟之前也發生了土耳其的事情，大家都還以為臺灣中心是臺灣政府成立的一個中心，因為他們用「臺灣中心」的名字，實際上後來錢跑到哪裡去了，所有建設也都不知道在哪邊。我想外交部應該要加強這個部分，跟各單位討論這些民間的善款如何有效的被利用。以上，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員上臺質詢。","接下來由陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-9","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","廖先翔","王鴻薇","張啓楷","李坤城","林憶君"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}