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小國忍受"},{"start":1982.509,"end":1998.475,"text":"這些東西本來就是很無奈所以我也知道你雖然做了中華民國的行政院長但是確實有很多無奈的事情但是院長我說實在的我特別還是要鼓勵和勉勵你"},{"start":2000.973,"end":2023.97,"text":"真的有些事情要面對問題解決問題真的因為你現在所有的行政院長當中我在做比較你的人品是好的很但是你現在做出來的事情確實是讓人民非常無奈我必須提供一個資訊給院長做參總因為這些關稅問題"},{"start":2030.305,"end":2037.631,"text":"你知道你的民調下7%嗎所以這個提供給你做參考那我在想我時間給院長30秒的時間針對這些你認同我這些說謊嗎"},{"start":2046.465,"end":2074.717,"text":"確實無奈最大的無奈來自立法院的結構對行政院送出的種種的法案都一概不予同意而且立法院通過的法案一再違背預算法跟憲法的規定好 超出預算超出設出從來沒有徵詢行政院這個無奈才讓我寸步難行院長 這個你已經講你已經講過很多次了你的無奈不是這個這些好不好 我特別要提醒"},{"start":2075.217,"end":2088.741,"text":"你不能比我了解我的無奈啊你的無奈我都了解不然我不會開頭就讓你有這種說明的機會我坦白跟你講啊現在就是選舉有政黨執政無政黨這種心態去執政"},{"start":2092.122,"end":2114.098,"text":"那就沒有問題可是你們現在不是啊所以燕子啊我不要跟你辯論這些我一定會尊重你現在你的處境但是我還是要呼籲我今天特別的主題就是要你沒有問題但是你的格言是大大有問題為什麼不要再造謠"},{"start":2119.79,"end":2124.172,"text":"不要再造謠我要請問劉部長3月29號你在下鄉演講的時候請問一下你為什麼指責台灣民眾黨吃台灣米變成中國粿拜託你告訴我為什麼"},{"start":2140.738,"end":2161.232,"text":"報告委員,我這是以個人的身份到...你不要跟我講個人的身份,可是你為什麼要指名道姓台灣民眾黨呢?我跟你講,我膝掌你起碎,身在台灣,始為台灣鬼,那你為什麼要罵台灣民眾黨是中國鬼呢?你的定義是什麼?"},{"start":2161.912,"end":2185.093,"text":"因為在前一天,這個台灣民眾黨有到鳳山那鳳山那邊有人去抗議,抗議的時候舉的這個牌子我覺得這個牌子呢,我覺得對於有一些不是只貴黨有一些人呢,他們的一個請供應該是要做出來說明你口才很好,但是你不要換位置,要換腦袋"},{"start":2187.033,"end":2213.871,"text":"這幾天你會對集會遊行法你過去在立法委員的時候你什麼態度你現在當為一個主管的時候你什麼態度這個我也不要跟你辯論你有你的看法換一個位置 換一個腦袋 無所謂但是你是政黨的主管機關指名道姓個人 我不批評但是你指名台灣民眾黨"},{"start":2214.972,"end":2236.32,"text":"那就包括我在內可是我告訴你我就是台灣人我就是台灣鬼你幹嘛罵我中國鬼什麼意思所以我跟你講部長我尊重你過去你在當立法委員你在當副市長你在當我們台北市的局長我都非常尊敬的"},{"start":2237.216,"end":2259.799,"text":"但是你講台灣民眾黨吃台灣米是中國鬼這基本上這是一個恥辱是一個政黨的主管機關應該這樣講嗎是應該這樣嗎所以我不服氣我要對你抗議所以照這種規則我告訴你就應該要下台 院長"},{"start":2260.967,"end":2277.599,"text":"我坦白跟你講沒有政黨的主管機關他是首長欸他是主管政黨那我們是中國鬼那你什麼鬼你告訴我你什麼鬼跟委員報告我跟你一樣吃台灣米做台灣粿"},{"start":2279.525,"end":2302.584,"text":"是啊 那你為什麼要講我們臺灣民眾黨是中國鬼咧所以我告訴你前言跟後語要對齁什麼前言跟後語 你還要再變對不起不對就不對但是我坦白跟你講 我一下 卓院長你很清楚我是對任何事情 我不會對人尤其我尊敬的人 我是禮讓三分"},{"start":2303.703,"end":2330.44,"text":"那我也相信這不是卓院長要你講可是我也同意在這整個人潮洶湧的情況之下一定會有一種情緒高昂可是你是政黨的主管機關部長不可以這樣講你講個人是個人的事你不能現在又推你自己本身是代表個人不可以這樣"},{"start":2331.681,"end":2356.864,"text":"言論自由我們尊重可是你不能整個黨都給人家罵下去這樣不好啦說實在我的墳墓我已經看好了就在台灣不會在中國這我很大膽的告訴你我也很大膽的跟卓院長你來做報告好 邱主委來我請問一下"},{"start":2357.987,"end":2377.839,"text":"你有沒有發現台灣民眾黨在你們做兩岸政策的時候我們有阻擋你任何議案沒有 有沒有我們比較遺憾的是不要遺憾有沒有台灣民眾黨有沒有阻擋你們任何的一個政策 有沒有"},{"start":2379.562,"end":2396.953,"text":"目前法律案是還沒有但是預算案卻蠻遺憾的你不要再給我扯預算案預算案是這種東西是另外一個我跟你談的是一個政黨的有沒有阻擋你兩岸的問題有沒有有就有沒有就沒有有沒有報告委員我們提了很多的國安法相關的法律國安法我在程序委員會啦"},{"start":2408.27,"end":2436.55,"text":"院長 我告訴你啦 你不要被底下的蒙騙啦我告訴你 提了只有兩案沒有通過 其他通通通過這兩案是到底立法委員跟村里長跟議員要到大陸去訪問的時候要跟主管機關報告 或者跟我立法院來報告只有黨這個我們希望是跟我立法院來報告立法委員跟立法院"},{"start":2437.33,"end":2459.972,"text":"院報告這是順理存章所以說有黨啊不管什麼理由就是有黨啊我們認為這樣才是國家安全所必須的但是就是有黨啊這不是黨這是戰犯我曾經提案人我跟他溝通你就改跟立法院來報告我們沒意見你可以去看看主張有些無關緊要有促進"},{"start":2461.874,"end":2473.082,"text":"這國安的問題我跟你講我們都沒有黨喔我跟你講如果台灣民眾黨你們認為我們還是不理性的話我說實在的你找不到所以"},{"start":2473.797,"end":2502.31,"text":"那個 邱主委 有就有 沒有就沒有我們是希望像這個立法院的社密人員應該跟行政部門來做通報 我們來做審查你是一個 該你的事 有就有 沒有就沒有我坦白講啦 我坦白講你知不知道 台灣民眾黨的立委還是多數被中共季節進入中國的 你知道嗎你知不知道"},{"start":2503.968,"end":2531.234,"text":"我告訴你我們跟民進黨的立法委員沒有兩樣還是被禁止進入中國所以我今天為什麼這麼氣愧一定將心比心啦 你會通過我了解但是我要分開你也要了解你聽好不好不能這樣亂講所以這一點我坦白跟你講我要提供資訊給你我們還有很多人被禁止進入大陸的連香港都不能去的所以這一點"},{"start":2532.284,"end":2535.286,"text":"我想邱主委你特別要去了解一下好不好"},{"start":2535.885,"end":2546.812,"text":"所以對於立法委員去到大陸除了跟他院長了解之外主管機關才能掌握未來的人身安全這是一個非常普遍的要求"},{"start":2566.288,"end":2568.14,"text":"所以政黨的批判"},{"start":2569.2,"end":2597.385,"text":"當然要 院長 我不管是口誤或不管是細意那是另外一回事今天有機會跟你這樣對白我希望最政黨的價值性的批判當然要謹慎但是任何政黨對總統的批判也要非常的小心一定 你如果要去暗撫那個領導的事情我特別跟你說來 接下來第二張請問一下嘛來 劉部長這些都是你們民進黨的人喔這些都是"},{"start":2598.703,"end":2607.321,"text":"都是被我們國安單位調查 司法單位調查這是 請問一下這是台灣鬼或中國鬼你告訴我"},{"start":2608.322,"end":2627.069,"text":"他已經接受了中國的價值觀所以他從這就是中國鬼啦沒有 他從最堅強的堡壘當中要來破壞這個堡壘這個就是他們的戰術所以他已經是台灣人接受了中國的價值觀我跟你講啦我尊重你 我不希望你一直去袒護這些我們要面對問題該辦就辦 而不要嚴辦恕辦你恍而沒有去糾正你的格言"},{"start":2633.812,"end":2655.065,"text":"你隔眼做任何事情你要概括承受的因為你是中華民國行政院最高所長所以你的隔眼講出話來你是要概括承受本來就不可以這樣的台灣鬼就是台灣鬼像這些 好 進行下一張 來"},{"start":2658.592,"end":2681.271,"text":"好啦 一定 我不跟你吵架啦 時間有限我坦白跟你講 你們很奇怪這個主公會裡面 我跟你講這些警消主公會 我記得很清楚教師主公會也是這種想法但是最後教書沒有罷工錢 他只有勞動三權"},{"start":2684.422,"end":2700.499,"text":"過得很好啊 也沒有罷工啊所以這些東西說實在的不要把它看成洪水猛獸所以啊 我們柯總召又說這個主張主公會的人就是中共同路人"},{"start":2703.52,"end":2716.325,"text":"這是我們獻華賦儀結社遣的一種但是至於錦霄因為他是公務人員要不要讓他們兼濟勞工之身份"},{"start":2718.005,"end":2741.756,"text":"這個可以談但是你們反對 一定 我坦白跟你講因為公務人員兼具勞工身份在台灣非常之多所以 確確實實 這個是可以談但是如何把它研磨不能去用醜化的動作喔 這些警校就是中共同路人支持的就是 你如果要這樣 我跟你講喔上一屆"},{"start":2743.137,"end":2766.875,"text":"二十幾個民進黨支持喔這一屆有十六個人喔你們這種理論扭曲事實的理論說實在一定 這些人不就都要抓起來這不合理啦我們對警消同仁的尊敬跟支持跟我們對國軍弟兄的尊敬支持是一樣的只是警消人員對國家有特別權利與關係我們必須要維持這種權利與關係時間的問題啦 我要呼應你"},{"start":2772.459,"end":2793.782,"text":"對於打詐的問題不要開玩笑現在國外非常猖獗以前是針對年輕人現在是中高齡所以這個問題知性現在你們報案的專線良又不起有時候真的他要報案真的要統一報案專線"},{"start":2795.643,"end":2820.856,"text":"這個才是真正要義法打詐確實要打但是打詐行為的結構已經在轉變大家最詬病的投資詐騙目前已經稍微有下降好 謝謝林國成委員謝謝卓院長 各部會所長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":2825.29,"end":2848.846,"text":"接下來我們請蔓越真委員質詢翁曉琳委員請準備謝謝院長有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":2862.642,"end":2882.259,"text":"蔡委員好院長好我有一個問題是帶民眾請教你的如果你孩子和你要十萬元去吃一頓牛排你會馬上給他還是會詢問他我會問他什麼事多少人去哪裡"},{"start":2883.894,"end":2900.904,"text":"很好 所以我再請教一下行政院如果你是說要問他 我們也會去問你一樣的道理 所以總預算也是一樣的所以再請教你是不是負責編列預算及執行計畫的職責是嗎 行政院"},{"start":2905.223,"end":2921.128,"text":"行政院整個部會立法院是不是要負責為人民把關審查我們的預算好看錢有沒有亂花有沒有花在刀口上該不該給是不是要多少立法院"},{"start":2922.83,"end":2949.347,"text":"不是都聽你的 你拿過來我們就馬上給跟你給孩子一樣一定要問為什麼 是嗎對不對 跟誰去嘛 花什麼嘛 是不是你剛才有說嘛所以你拿行政院編訂預算 立法院審議預算這是憲法所定的沒錯 所以跟我們人民在委託我問你的一樣的道理 這樣子的邏輯所以我們就合理"},{"start":2949.867,"end":2969.922,"text":"合法的就是要請我們各個部會這麼簡單而已就是你們要來跟我們是要審查預算所以我們要的就是要問要說明所以呢我們就是要溝通才會知道要不要給嘛 是不是"},{"start":2971.704,"end":2991.856,"text":"小艾回答我說她要一百個人去做一件會長對她的公司我說她一頓喔不要去解釋那個所以我們立法院要刪除的預算但是委員我們不會跟她說我先凍結70%妳吃到30%的時候再來跟我要啊我們立法院凍結是人民的錢嗎我可能跟她講妳吃到30%的時候再來跟我要"},{"start":2998.26,"end":3016.602,"text":"問你就是我們百分之三十因為問了我們不知道他做什麼所以給他七十對啊對不對你說的對嘛我們問了你們要去吃牛排我給你七十趴了嘛你真的吃牛排回來跟我講我才吃跟你"},{"start":3017.503,"end":3046.191,"text":"在補嘛 在解凍嘛這樣子那麼簡單的邏輯而已啊所以我們是 如果你覺得這樣我們現在全部我們立法院刪除的不是人民的費用所以你要在各個地方你用立法我們立法院這邊的預算你用行政院的身份到處去招搖所以我們 我要敢問你"},{"start":3047.321,"end":3076.39,"text":"我們113個立委在8個部會裡面去審所有的預算全部各部會的預算你有每一個一個去看嗎我們要幫你把關我們希望這個預算劃在刀口上萬一他們出事情你敢對全國的人民發誓只要各個部會有爭議我行政院長全部負責敢不敢"},{"start":3078.151,"end":3106.228,"text":"你敢不敢嘛因為我們是幫你把關希望我們這個預算花在刀口上對不對不是我們要刪預算我們做任何事情我們就是因為你知道他們的預算我們省預算我在基層我們都有省的民間團體的預算都有起源目的執行我們要怎麼樣到效果但是我們這邊沒有"},{"start":3107.449,"end":3119.135,"text":"完全去改113年的計劃沒有任何的創意也沒有任何的改變就送過來了所以我們看到的都是三個都是吃喝玩樂我們有2,806億的新增預算委員怎麼可以說我們是改113年的計劃呢檢安委員預算書沒有看完改了都是113年的大預算"},{"start":3132.662,"end":3146.421,"text":"都是改所以你要去看的 你有沒有全部看還是你聽說 我們是真正的去看你有沒有去看 全部各部會的預算所以真的 院長"},{"start":3151.567,"end":3158.655,"text":"2800億新增預算 委員知道哪一項嗎 不知道啊我們都是因為 妳說我們是為人民發聲 我們是把關號妳記錯就發錯聲音啊院長 妳知道為什麼我上次問妳說妳眼鏡有沒有我"},{"start":3171.121,"end":3196.772,"text":"的意思嗎我問你說你的眼睛沒有我的意思說什麼是你說目中無人你的心目中沒有百姓你要跟百姓交代不是回去跟家人交代所以我的意思是這樣所以現在我要請我們我們卓院長你把手摸在你的胸口上你感受一下它是冰的還是涼的溫的"},{"start":3199.688,"end":3219.796,"text":"問的表示你還有良心所以呢我們希望你要去不要說你都是聽別人說你要自己來去所以我們希望說我進入政壇我當你是偶像所以說我今天更失望的是說"},{"start":3223.117,"end":3237.346,"text":"賴總統把整個國家的部會交給你來去管理讓你要去溝通但是現在呢把我們台灣變成國際的消化還有我們國安的問題還有我們賴總統的安危你有沒有考慮連我們的新增預算都搞不懂在我們的總統的身邊"},{"start":3245.071,"end":3246.753,"text":"這樣子你要去檢討啊不是要來去對應 我們要的不是對應質詢我們要的是有效果如何去把我們台灣的政策 服國立民三黨要合作 如何去把大家去融合這個才是我們要的行政院長"},{"start":3266.59,"end":3290.244,"text":"合作的前提是要把事實看清楚 如果委員一直不懂我們2800年有一直增進的預算 那我沒有辦法跟這樣合作啊現在更失望的是你眼睛也看不到 你心也感受不到我們有一句成語我不知道怎麼講 你自己去體會好 所以說我接下來呢因為我真的 接下來我要問你的我們在113年我們的"},{"start":3292.233,"end":3321.292,"text":"立法院已經通過三讀通過新住民基本法到現在我還沒有看到我們的職責所以我們明確我們有行政院的職責是要籌備我們的新住民發展署但是到現在我還沒有看到一個字所以我們行政的部門現在如何怎麼去執行因為我要公文過去跟內政部"},{"start":3322.894,"end":3334.483,"text":"移民署要但是到現在為止我們看到的是這樣會議紀錄是機密嗎經費也是機密嗎所以完全回我的公文是這樣可以看一下公文寫的是這樣"},{"start":3344.319,"end":3369.024,"text":"所以說這個公文我們看到的就是說我在2月10號還有2月14號兩個發文進度在哪裡我沒有看到所以說我們部長可以回我一下說回復的態度還有回復這樣的問題是你指令的嗎所以完全我沒有看到說我們現在的進度在哪裡"},{"start":3370.004,"end":3390.049,"text":"報告委員我們到目前為止已經開過16次的會議裡面包括原則上開的整體的會議的時候是6次然後工作層級的會議是10次我們盤點出來包括內政部包括移民署包括新住民署還有相關的其他部會要跟著做改變的部分但是你們有用我的時間嗎"},{"start":3393.151,"end":3401.922,"text":"這個是移民署給你的公文所以你有看過嗎 你知道嗎我們按照全責的分配全責的分配這個是機密嗎"},{"start":3405.236,"end":3431.206,"text":"沒有機密吧 你講得頭頭是道嘛所以大家都在開會 都在這樣但是呢 我們已經立法三讀通過了沒依法行政嘛 你說依法行政嘛但是我們沒有看到啊 對不對連說你說籌備新聞 你說籌備處沒有去執行 怎麼會籌備呢連快一年了 九個月了 一個籌備處沒看見的東西"},{"start":3433.087,"end":3434.829,"text":"我們本來就有籌備處 籌備處本來有設立了嗎有設立了嗎 有成立了嗎 還是用說的籌備處本來就有了 是我們的常務指導所以什麼時候成立"},{"start":3448.144,"end":3467.439,"text":"我們新住民基本法在立法院通過之後我們的吳唐安吳長次就已經是籌備處在做執行秘書的工作然後由移民署但是我新聞裡面沒有看到所以呢我希望我們現在要的就是我看我是要的就是說設立一個專責機構"},{"start":3470.101,"end":3485.279,"text":"是不是行政機構的法定的責任呢因為我們法律已經通過了是否就是在此向我們新住民向大家承諾三個月內三個月內我們內政部完成新住民發展圖的籌備規劃對外公開"},{"start":3487.962,"end":3492.425,"text":"透明的有進度的我們想要的就是明確初步的組織草案或者紮構的設計但是我現在都沒有看到所以我們院長今天也在這邊也要幫新住民解決的問題而法律已經通過了"},{"start":3505.994,"end":3515.103,"text":"政府必須依法行政新住民在台灣已經落實已經生根希望我們就在這邊不只是生活為了整個台灣參加社會還有說我們也是國家的重要的一份子我們是家人不是敵人也是因為這樣子的機關我們希望透過這樣子的"},{"start":3530.817,"end":3537.421,"text":"可以為台灣去做一個連結做個溝通關於權益語言交易還有經濟的發展就業法律的等等我們希望我們是學以致用我們要求的就是可以在三個月內真的真正的去成立一個籌備處我們要求的是新住民發展署但是已經九個月了"},{"start":3559.312,"end":3570.716,"text":"從別處的開幕或者啟動都沒有我們也看不到你也沒有給我們所以呢你說你開會用什麼來開會用什麼部會來開會也是有限吧越開越不會叫做開會嗎對不對所以我們希望在"},{"start":3580.18,"end":3596.24,"text":"這一筆預算裡面我們也沒有看到114年也沒有看到所以我們希望你真正的去編列也真正的讓大家各個公務人員他有職責的工作關於這個工作你也要編列預算讓他們去執行"},{"start":3597.441,"end":3618.832,"text":"你完全沒有編列又叫他們去做所以就看不到一個效果出來所以我們希望我們院長我們跟我們的部長我們兩位跟我們全國的新住民去承諾說我們是不是在三個月內這個籌備處正式啟動怎麼樣去執行我們再來共同來去努力好嗎報告委員"},{"start":3624.955,"end":3637.906,"text":"行政院現在經費的結局籌備處成立是不會舉行盛大的開幕典禮的這個從來沒有過啦他說喔 上次那個內政部長說的他說他會在籌備處要去成立但是沒有公開 但是什麼時候成立啊要有一個日期 有一個承諾吧"},{"start":3648.135,"end":3654.538,"text":"有一個進度嘛,不然就是用講的啊,用講大家也會笑啊體育部的籌備處,妳也沒有參加過開幕典禮啊體育部的籌備處也開始了,但是也沒有開幕典禮啊對啊沒有,是他說他會有開幕啊所以我們不管有沒有開幕,我要的是要有何時何日,哪一天"},{"start":3672.427,"end":3698.422,"text":"是這樣而已 我們院長可以跟大家承諾嗎委員只是看不到內政部同仁在這裡的努力對新住民的權益各種他們已經研究了很多沒有否定他的努力才會去問他做了什麼嘛才要教他編列預算嘛所以這個籌備署他沒有成立又沒有編列預算什麼叫做否認啊沒有籌備署已經成立了你才是否認大家的努力我問你啊 我們2014年到現在已經四個月了"},{"start":3699.505,"end":3714.377,"text":"所以大家 你說凍結預算所以大家在做什麼 吹冷氣吃便當嗎所以你否定大家的功勞啊對不對 大家都有在做事情所以我們要進度 要進度不是只是一個紙上糖冰好不好 我願意不要誣衊公務員好不好"},{"start":3719.761,"end":3728.165,"text":"我沒有忽略啊 我講的是說大家的功勞叫你不要否定大家的功勞要該給的預算 該要編的要編但是我們沒有看到所以我是要要你明確一個日期嘛"},{"start":3738.414,"end":3765.823,"text":"又做又做 每天都沒做 我這個月我也做有很多籌備署的委員在工作就到民國幾年也不知道就是因為了一件事情 是這樣嗎我們行政院的行政機構是這樣子嗎一件事情做到沒完沒了這樣子嗎沒有嘛 對不對 我們要明確的一個時間跟日期還有關於我們放棄國籍的部分我們也希望我們內政部長這一邊"},{"start":3768.204,"end":3788.436,"text":"就是因為新住民他們不管YAMP一致同仁要放棄國籍像我們要放棄國籍才能領身分證若非要放棄那個戶籍你們要求的不是他們要求的放棄了才能領身分證不要到最後再來跟大家雙戰"},{"start":3811.207,"end":3816.75,"text":"我們要求公平平等一致同仁要求的是只有這樣子而已其他我們是很守本分的依法執政只要要求我們他進台灣一步我們就依法執政依政府的規定好 謝謝好 謝謝麥義貞委員子訊謝謝左院長 劉部長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":3818.496,"end":3821.737,"text":"接下來請翁曉琳委員質詢林依儀委員請準備院長好有請游院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢對不起有請卓院長卓院長跟劉部長"},{"start":3852.605,"end":3880.961,"text":"董委員好院長好本席在這邊首先我要先感謝你對本席的質詢問政質詢還有我的所知相當的重視與關注我不是重視你的內容我是重視它影響國家的安全因為您的批評與指控讓社會大眾很好奇到底本席質詢的議題我問了什麼我的內容是什麼"},{"start":3881.721,"end":3910.882,"text":"所以呢就引來很多人來觀看我質詢的影片擴大我質詢的影響力那也讓民眾呢更加的了解什麼是政府造謠可以說是這個賽翁失馬焉知非福啦那麼我想請問院長您是否有看過我在3月26號質詢農業部部長陳俊記的影片我沒有現場看到但事後我了解整個狀況"},{"start":3911.889,"end":3933.74,"text":"你沒有現場看到當然不會有時間現場看到但是我了解所有的狀況部長也有跟我做說明這個影片是短短五分鐘而且是在立法院的影音平台上面公開那麼全國的國人都可以看到在這一次的質詢當中我問農業部陳俊記"},{"start":3938.706,"end":3954.59,"text":"說到底現在台灣萬一發生緊急狀況的時候糧食的安全儲糧還有民生必需品的供應站的規劃是如何請問我從頭到尾我有講我要索取暫時糧食儲備地圖嗎您問他這個供應站儲備站"},{"start":3960.56,"end":3980.985,"text":"如何規劃這個就是希望部長能夠給你一個答覆只是我們部長很機靈是 部長是部長很機靈嗎部長在當場的時候我覺得他是誠實的他知道作為一個部長這樣的資訊本來就是公開是 院長您太狡猾"},{"start":3981.874,"end":3991.224,"text":"我告訴您您今天連個短短5分鐘的質詢影片您都沒有看過你就在夏香宣講的時候亂造謠我什麼時候我有說過地圖這兩個字"},{"start":3996.438,"end":4024.711,"text":"我真的是很...供應戰我告訴你那是現在法規裡面就有規定的這個是在國防手冊裡面清楚揭露我今天如果不是透過我翁小玲委員的質詢告訴大家說我們還有一個辦法是在規範民生必需品短缺時期的配售供應戰我告訴你這個部分很多的老百姓是不知道的"},{"start":4025.251,"end":4051.693,"text":"根本不知道這是寫在國防手冊裡面的而很遺憾的沒想到連院長你也不知道由此可見你民進黨政府所說的什麼全民防衛任性這根本是說假的你們連宣傳都不知道你連相關的法規相關的問題都不知道在哪裡我更遺憾的是我更遺憾的是我剛剛說我現場沒有看到事後當然有看到你沒有看過我執行的影片就信口開河你就造謠"},{"start":4054.085,"end":4069.922,"text":"今天我是第三位质询委员从第一位委员第二位委员到我我相信之后还会有很多的委员会质疑卓院长您所领导的内阁你不仅仅是这个最会复义的内阁"},{"start":4070.953,"end":4083.204,"text":"我看現在也是最會造謠的內閣所以我今天很遺憾我原本以為院長您是看過我的質詢影片你才做這樣的發言但是沒有想到你連看都沒有看過然後你就你剛剛不是講說你沒有看過"},{"start":4089.817,"end":4112.077,"text":"我說現場我沒有看到事後我都知道我哪有說我沒有看到你有看過我的影片嗎?你沒有,你剛剛說過了好,不重要,現在你已經說了短片那麼多,你這個委員質詢的內容拿來短線那麼多,大家都看到了你在夏湘演講的時候,你有說我為什麼要這個所值"},{"start":4113.848,"end":4128.885,"text":"我為什麼要請農業部部長提供給我有關於林森必需品這個配售站的相關的資訊你當時說是委員想知道還是想讓誰知道"},{"start":4132.168,"end":4135.45,"text":"我在這邊很嚴正的告訴院長,我想讓誰知道?我想讓全國的老百姓知道,在發生緊急危難的時候,與民生有關的謎、謠、言等等這些重要的救命資訊,應該讓所有的老百姓知道我們要到哪裡去領取,而不是只有民進黨的特權。"},{"start":4155.684,"end":4179.045,"text":"這個階級 全會才知道不是只有你民進黨領取黨政的這些人才知道我沒有戰略觀念是你沒有戰略觀念我剛已經說了這完全就是公開資訊你不要在那裡造謠你現在就是一心一意的想要把所有在野黨抹黑成中共同路人沒有想到真正的共諜就在你民進黨裡面啊"},{"start":4180.166,"end":4188.953,"text":"所以要說出來我以為你完全沒有戰略觀念我只有一句話全社會防衛就是要在適當的時候告訴人民什麼東西而不是在不適當的什麼時候讓對手知道我們有什麼事情請問院長您在3月29號我剛剛講了在民進黨的造勢場合當中你還對台下的民眾民進黨支持者很善情的說"},{"start":4205.285,"end":4233.491,"text":"未來翁曉琳委員所有的所資一律都要送行政院合訂之後才能夠送出您說過這句話吧前面還有一句話我說我沒有權利叫委員站在後面去但是我有權利讓委員的所資我這裡了解站在哪裡不重要重要的是說你是不是說過這句話我說過有嘛對不對你有說嘛對不對我的所資你都要看過啊然後呢你要合訂才能送出對吧是"},{"start":4235.531,"end":4260.31,"text":"請問院長你現在看我的鎖子嗎沒有為什麼沒有因為都不重要因為都不重要是嗎是嗎都不重要那你還說這句話你就是造謠嘛你就是你從頭到尾都是空口說白話從你一開始質詢我的影片到你現在所說的你哪一句不是空口說白話你只是很善情的告訴所有支持者說歐小林委員的鎖子你都要看好你的鎖子都在院裡面啊"},{"start":4261.325,"end":4279.915,"text":"都在院裡面都在院裡面院的哪邊你告訴我現在我所知的幾份都還沒有送到我這裡來沒有收到嗎那我告訴你了我到目前為止從你說了這句話之後我陸陸續續到上個禮拜我已經送給行政院19份了"},{"start":4281.535,"end":4295.847,"text":"沒有安全之餘的沒有安全之餘你都沒有安全紀律你這麼確定你根本連看到都沒有看過我告訴你你做不到的事情你就不要亂講所以由此可見你現在就是已經證明了一件事情就是卓院長說的話不可信你就說空口說牌的話你只會喊口號告訴支持者說要相信我們民進黨政府"},{"start":4308.158,"end":4328.952,"text":"要相信我們所做的 結果呢 你完全沒有做啊而且你根本就造謠聲勢這是我看到 你在對我的這些攻擊理念然後呢 我得出來的結果你說要所有的所知 你要看過我連我送了多少份 我送給哪個部會我告訴你根本沒有看過好 接下來我要問另外一個問題有重要的才會到我這裡來對 所以 我現在送的都不重要"},{"start":4336.577,"end":4354.69,"text":"都不是機密沒有國家安全之餘所以我之前問的那個就是國家安全機密我告訴你你趕快去看看吧你接下來可能還會做很多的上香宣講趕快去看看好好讀一讀我的所知我真的覺得你平常都在讀書不要再出這種問題我們就沒有那種顧慮我接下來我要問一個更實際的問題行政院院這個去年就已經說公教人員加薪3%114年的這個政府總運算我們已經也通過了"},{"start":4366.288,"end":4371.992,"text":"總統3月21號就公告了可以請您告訴我到底這筆錢什麼時候會入賬因為關於預算的問題我們之前還送過復議案在復議案之前我們當然不依舊預算內容現在講總統3月21號公告了嘛2014年總預算案已經公告了現在已經快要4月底了快5月了那3%的這個薪水什麼時候發嘛3%的薪水我們5月份就會發"},{"start":4396.813,"end":4418.742,"text":"確定那太好了看起來早上就已經決定了還是有效果的今天早上就決定了這個上個禮拜質詢之後不是我們今天早上就決定了強調這個軍公教很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以可以持發薪水然後很多的什麼津貼烤雞這些都沒有發是因為三預算三到預算無法確定不要把責任貸到行政院身上來"},{"start":4423.724,"end":4450.638,"text":"委員始終要人民不相信政府委員始終要人民不相信政府但是你對法律解讀又是一知半解又要人民不相信政府是因為審預算三道讓預算沒有辦法順利進行請你不要質疑我不要質疑我一個法學教授法學博士的這樣的一個專業我跟你比我比你懂得多好接下來我要問一下但是你不懂的地方更多那麼賴清德"},{"start":4452.554,"end":4459.317,"text":"那麼他在公佈賴17條之後其實也引發國內很多的討論那麼將大陸認定為境外敵對勢力那麼我想這個可能要請陸委會主委"},{"start":4474.233,"end":4485.803,"text":"請教陸委會主委就是你知道目前到底我們有多少的台灣人在大陸工作這個就業居住生活"},{"start":4487.014,"end":4506.966,"text":"是 我們估計有很多這種算法不過按照我們主計總署最近核算的大概有40萬的台商跟他們的眷屬在中國大陸就是比較長期常住在中國大陸的好 那麼所以在那17條公布之後政府有想到這群人的處境嗎"},{"start":4508.39,"end":4526.333,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個十七條是基於我們自己國家安全社會安定是面對中共對於我們威脅非常嚴重不管是軍機艦擾台不管是陳獨二十二條經濟脅迫外交打壓"},{"start":4526.994,"end":4549.572,"text":"一連串的認知作戰、滲透分化這些複合性的施壓非常嚴重所以我們是在堅定的維護台海的現狀跟國人的幸福安全那我接下來要問的就是看這個情況兩岸敵對緊張的情勢將不斷升高我想問一下民進黨政府有沒有撤回台胞的計畫跟措施"},{"start":4551.57,"end":4574.065,"text":"委員你們應該知道日本因為因應台灣有事的情況計畫所以他們之前就有公布六天之內要撤離沖繩居民到九州集三口縣現在我們有四十多萬的台灣同胞在大陸比較算是長期的生活"},{"start":4576.346,"end":4585.733,"text":"那如果說兩岸的敵對情況不斷的升高而且真的發生什麼問題的話政府有沒有做撤回台胞計畫準備委員我們講這個17項的因應策略剛剛所說的都是在積極的維護台海現狀"},{"start":4596.67,"end":4623.521,"text":"我現在是問你們有沒有準備我們也有把兩岸的各種的風險透過我們海基會也好陸委會也好告訴我們在大陸生活的包括台商相關的人所以整體來講你們看起來你們還沒有做任何的準備那接下來我要再繼續請教就是因為最近大家討論很多的就是陸委會他建置你們建置的國人赴陸港澳動態登陸系統"},{"start":4625.422,"end":4642.923,"text":"而這套登錄系統其實坦白說台灣的老百姓並不愛用我們現在到目前為止登錄的比例大概也就只有2.45%這是你之前所做的報告那我想請教主委就是說到底我們登錄這套系統之後"},{"start":4644.909,"end":4657.7,"text":"民進黨政府可以做什麼它的主要能夠發揮的效能是什麼是為了要幫助台灣同胞在大陸發生急難救助的時候你們可以幫得上忙是嗎"},{"start":4658.923,"end":4687.813,"text":"是 跟委員報告因為我們發現相當多的家屬來海基會 來陸委會報案說他們的家人失蹤了那同時呢也有很多人依照被法律限制他們的人身自由那這些呢都要我們知道個案再跟大陸去查核所以現在您剛說的這群人他們基本上都沒有登錄是都沒有登錄嗎 還他沒有登錄我現在想要質疑的就是"},{"start":4689.289,"end":4694.419,"text":"民進黨政府執政這些年其實與大陸方面的溝通管道是中斷的"},{"start":4695.629,"end":4698.911,"text":"官方的正式協商,由於他們有協商的前提,他們不願意跟我們持續的就既有的溝通聯繫機制,但是,用委員所說的,"},{"start":4720.106,"end":4735.296,"text":"但是登錄了之後你政府積極的作為在哪裡你到底有沒有能力可以去維護我們台高在大陸的權益我們就可以找到他家裡的相關的當事人當然也可以讓我們在大陸的這些旅遊人工作人員跟政府保持聯繫"},{"start":4750.446,"end":4757.771,"text":"如果有突發事件 意外事件 急難救助我們這個登錄系統可以連結政府的資源及時給好 謝謝翁小玲委員指揮 謝謝卓院長陸委會的備詢好 謝謝"},{"start":4776.178,"end":4781.485,"text":"接下來我們請登記第四位林怡錦委員之尋盧憲一委員請準備"},{"start":4809.466,"end":4819.212,"text":"謝謝主席有請卓院長內政部劉部長還有陸委會邱主委麻煩請卓院長內政部陸委會備選時間暫停跟林委員報告我們就是以三位為主因為我們硬體設備就這樣如果要第四位部長上來我們再請一個部長先下去好嗎就以三位為主好請咨詢好林委員好"},{"start":4839.092,"end":4857.825,"text":"院長好院長首先還是先在我進入我今天準備的主題之前先請教您一下因為籃板亂山亂洞這個總預算案那導致很多機關沒有辦法正常運作所以我們最擔心的就是說很多的這個"},{"start":4859.426,"end":4881.564,"text":"正常的這個預算沒辦法執行所以院長早上你有說要院裡頭要送出解凍案那我想同樣受到總預算案影響到的所謂的軍公教條新案不曉得政府這裡有什麼樣的措施我剛聽你回答翁曉琳委員有說今天早上你有說"},{"start":4882.745,"end":4909.736,"text":"五月五月就會入帳等一下再請您說清楚一點然後就是立法院上個月有否決我們行政院提出的復議案那也想要請教一下院長再來有什麼樣的救濟措施好謝謝顯然委員比較專心找上我們說過的話非常感謝那解凍部分不論他是否已經達到解凍的條件或是他設了很多特殊的解凍條件包括"},{"start":4910.776,"end":4931.91,"text":"第一項就是只要書面報告的這三項我們全部送出希望在最短的時間內能夠一律解凍讓行政部門好做事那麼至於軍公教同仁的加薪3%因為之前預算還有復義等等一直卡住對整個預算沒有辦法很順利的執行那現在已經到現在為止復義案也已經被被被被打掉對所以"},{"start":4933.391,"end":4954.247,"text":"包括約用人員的業務費用約用人員是邊在業務費用也被刪除了但是我們也現在來不及辦追加預算所以我們會先與軍公教人員這3%加薪也跟約用人員的這些費用一併的先運資會在5月份兩項都出來同時"},{"start":4955.305,"end":4966.617,"text":"因為我們不是承認這樣的審查預算是合法合憲的所以行政院也會針對預算案跟財化法的修法同時我們會提出釋憲"},{"start":4968.316,"end":4996.695,"text":"好 謝謝院長的答覆那我想就進入我今天要跟您談的主題那首先我想上個禮拜五民眾黨突襲式的提出公投案那其中有一項就所謂的不在籍投票那這項提案其實很不負責任而且模糊不清那之所以說他不負責任是說投票制度的法制作業本來就是立法會員的分類工作"},{"start":4998.576,"end":5022.03,"text":"那把立委本來就應該做而且可以做那必須事事討厭的事情訴諸於公投那這很明顯就是特定的立委在偷懶在怠惰浪費國家資源那再來民眾黨的公投主文的模糊不清這個其實也是像上週五民眾黨這個提案內容他就提出說"},{"start":5023.431,"end":5032.981,"text":"菲律賓啊 印尼等這個國家他可以直接在台灣投票選他們的總統那有些國家還可以直接線上投票那他們說 身為這個科技島的台灣喔"},{"start":5038.528,"end":5058.309,"text":"應該建制移轉投票等不在籍的這種投票制度那民眾黨對於這種移轉制度的定義到底是什麼或者是不是電子投票對他們來說也是一種移轉投票還是說是不是在境外設投票所對他們來說也是一種移轉投票"},{"start":5059.29,"end":5081.253,"text":"這個我們都不清楚所以想要請教院長跟部長就是說我們有可能無視於中國對台灣的民主的威脅就貿然的開放電子投票甚至是境外投票嗎那是否應該對所謂的境外敵對勢力介入我國的選舉有什麼樣的警覺院長"},{"start":5082.09,"end":5104.363,"text":"我做原則性的報告第一個國家現在的處境所謂的境外的電子投票等等我們認為絕不可行因為受控於人太多我們有一個境外的敵對勢力他會對投票的行為產生什麼結果是無法用民主來衡量的所以境外的電子行為是絕對我們現階段不宜採納不宜考慮"},{"start":5105.523,"end":5133.96,"text":"那國內的部分移轉投票我們可以大家來討論但要有一個限制它必須一向是全國性的否則若是一個地方的選舉它都可以移轉投票那中選會地方選委會會忙死一個地方的選舉全國都在有移轉投票這個會造成很大的困擾再來全國性的我們要考量是否從對事的公投能夠開始來著想怎麼做對人的部分我想那個複雜性更高我只做原則性的報告如果細節下行"},{"start":5134.821,"end":5136.022,"text":"這個主委來說明沒關係我能理解這個院長的意思因為他們這個他們這樣他們公投主人是說各項選舉公投都要落實這個移轉投票那也就是說只要一個村長補選"},{"start":5154.719,"end":5169.513,"text":"可能就要全國動員辦理移轉投票所以這個耗費太多的國家資源所以剛剛院長已經表示很清楚我們如果對勢的公投或許可以考慮來做這個所謂的移轉投票那我想"},{"start":5171.567,"end":5190.346,"text":"南白是很奇怪啦就是說他們又要凍結中選會的預算然後又要叫中選會來擴大辦理所謂的這個業務所以這個其實是不曉得他們在想什麼啦那這部分主委你要不要補充好 謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":5191.167,"end":5207.945,"text":"有關於不在籍投票法制面的檢討其實行政部門一直都在進行長期以來主管機關內政部跟我們中選會的立場是一致的而且是一貫的"},{"start":5209.066,"end":5232.327,"text":"這一致跟一貫主要的精神剛剛院長已經提到了也就是我們認為不再提投票牽涉到的很多複雜的因素這些複雜的因素如果去影響到選務的穩定的話這個事情就非常非常嚴重了所以我們希望採取穩健的步驟也就是說從比較單純的對市的"},{"start":5235.529,"end":5251.554,"text":"這個公民投票來跨出第一步那麼累積一些實施經驗的結果之後再來進一步的對人的選舉是不是要採取採取何種方式再來做討論目前還是往這個方向在推進"},{"start":5253.034,"end":5268.65,"text":"至於具體的現在民眾黨所提出兩個公投案其中有一個跟不在籍有關係的因為他已經進入到立法院要交付公投的程序裡面了中選會是不宜表示意見"},{"start":5269.13,"end":5293.773,"text":"好 我最後要倡議的是說與其這個突襲題所謂的不在即投票我們是不是好好的再度在這一屆我們再來落實所謂的跨黨派都有共識的18歲公民權那這一屆本席也有提案要下修這個投票年齡到18歲所以是不是請院長我們在這一屆我們再來努力共同推動18歲公民權"},{"start":5295.174,"end":5307.779,"text":"我們之前曾經推動過但是到最後很可惜未來我們繼續推動這也是符合我們民法規定一個人都成年了那麼希望他能夠青年的熱血參與整個國家的大事盡將來進行好 謝謝院長"},{"start":5312.591,"end":5330.316,"text":"另外我想根據反滲透法第二條中國就是境外敵對勢力那可是我們面對無所不用其極要併吞台灣的中國我們的立法院卻是採取一種門戶洞開然後毫無防備的姿態"},{"start":5331.956,"end":5358.258,"text":"藍白兩黨持續聯手阻礙立委赴中納館的法案拒絕向國人交代那我想到底那麼多的立委往中國跑那麼多的立委的助理也往中國跑那他們到底幹了什麼勾當那甚至我們現在有發現有些立院的助理或有些單位的幕僚也有涉及這個中國的間諜那我想"},{"start":5359.759,"end":5377.808,"text":"就針對事情來講我也不覺得民眾黨跟國民黨對於這件事情有什麼樣積極的作為反而看到他們是有點幸災樂禍沒有要就事論事積極透過立法的方式來防堵成為所謂的國家的破口"},{"start":5378.308,"end":5399.764,"text":"所以想請教院長是說面對台灣的這個國際處境那你怎麼看待立法院面對國安這樣的一個消極的態度又有什麼樣的呼籲另外想要請教主委是說像陸委會不斷的強調說現行附中納管本來就有包括立法院在內喔只是立法院從來不提報"},{"start":5400.504,"end":5429.162,"text":"那面對立法院拒絕配合這種狀態梁副主委在上個禮拜三的記者會有表示那乾脆就在立法那個明文上去規定那立委就是必須要附中納管的對象那我想要請教說陸委會到底要提這樣的修法的版本有沒有計畫那到時候會不會也把立委的助理也納入規範先請主委回答再請院長回答"},{"start":5431.095,"end":5456.931,"text":"謝謝林委員這個寶貴的質詢讓我們有機會跟您報告就是我們現行法律就各院跟各部會只要涉密的人員就應該提報到主管機關內政部 移民署來做申報許可那事實上我們除了大院之外其他的四院都有送涉密名單來"},{"start":5459.533,"end":5473.206,"text":"當然我們陸委會本於要落實兩項條例的精神我們會持續的跟大院來溝通也感謝您今天的質詢今天大院很多重要的長官都在現場我們會持續來努力"},{"start":5474.947,"end":5492.955,"text":"那至於你剛剛提到我們未來要如何的修法來規範從中央到地方包括我們未來的民選公職人員我們想他們賦入也要有必要的管理的制度我們要納管畢竟"},{"start":5494.615,"end":5515.234,"text":"公開化、透明化、向國民負責這是相當重要的而且我們整體社會都很在乎我們的民意代表去中國大陸做什麼樣的交流這個交流對台灣的安全有沒有傷害或是幫助他們都很想了解"},{"start":5515.754,"end":5541.811,"text":"所以未來包括您剛剛提到的除了立委之外立委助理因為他們的型態更加的複雜是不是納入規範我們也會一併來檢討那像今年2月本席有針對立法院拒絕副州納管的這件事情有行為給韓國瑜院長跟周外來副秘書長那周秘書長是怎麼回應他說立法院以及"},{"start":5542.651,"end":5569.149,"text":"立法委員似乎不是兩岸人民關係條例的第九條第四項所規範的涉密人員那周秘書長還說本院為合議制機關院長或委員是否從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務除非有明文規範否則須有本院的合議方式來決議之"},{"start":5570.61,"end":5594.432,"text":"換句話說一件事情是不是機密要由立委投票比人頭決定這其實相當荒謬啦同樣是合議制的機關從監察院到地方法院大家都全力配合附中納管的規範唯獨立法院提出這種理由來拒絕遵守所以我想這個部分也透過這個機會跟院長提醒韓院長提醒"},{"start":5595.313,"end":5622.748,"text":"好 那另外我認為行政院在下週都會對公務人員提出一套機制安全查的機制行政院已經決定在下週就會提出一個機制了我希望國家安全不只是行政院的工作立法院也應該從自律跟法治化來著手所以我鄭重的呼籲韓院長跟我們一起努力的起步往前走把國家安全放一個最優先的地位 謝謝"},{"start":5624.009,"end":5646.135,"text":"那另外本席再跟院長討論一下五一勞動節全面一致放假的議題這項議題我想我從上一屆立委的任期就不斷的倡議喔那如今經歷了三任的行政院長每一任的院長跟我探討也都不止一次勞動節全國一致性放假這個議題"},{"start":5647.315,"end":5671.963,"text":"那蘇院長的時代他是說有在研究要請主管機關那個全盤來考量那陳建院長第一次被我質詢的時候他說會來全面檢討第二次他質詢的時候就有鬆口說可以考慮全國一致性的放假到了卓院長您上任的時候那您是說會請人總繼續跟地方政府做"},{"start":5672.403,"end":5698.549,"text":"比較相對好的溝通那我想站在同樣的地點那再次面對我的相同質詢我想請教院長此時此刻五一勞動節已經快到了那您對這樣全國一致性的放假的態度是什麼那我想現在四月中那有不可能今年就來實施全國一致性的放假那如果還是有困難到底卡在哪裡那欠缺的共識到底要怎麼樣解決 院長"},{"start":5699.656,"end":5724.288,"text":"我們現在在討論過程當中不再拘泥於過去一百一十五天一百一十六天這樣的放假的日期的象限我們希望衡量整個國內經濟情勢的轉變跟勞資之間更和諧的關係其實我很願意這麼來說來做但是還是有一些包括勞方的意見我們都還要尊重資方的意見也要尊重今年或許有困難我們努力在明年"},{"start":5724.96,"end":5741.222,"text":"好 那我想繼續追問就是說明年2026的春節喔因為大年初四剛好碰到週五那其實春節只有放到年初三那如果初四這一天還要上班的話那隔天又要開始放假所以是不是如果要讓民眾"},{"start":5751.428,"end":5763.646,"text":"好 謝謝林議員的質詢謝謝左院長 各部會首長的備詢好 謝謝接下來我們請盧憲一委員質詢林月琴委員請準備"},{"start":5781.977,"end":5802.008,"text":"就是有請院長跟園民會主委麻煩請卓院長園民會請備選主委好院長好主委好"},{"start":5803.492,"end":5830.409,"text":"氣候變遷因應法已經即將邁入十年它之前是溫室氣體減量及管理辦法針對原住民的部分在第五條它有說就是為推動自然碳會政府應與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區的自然碳會該區域內所增碳會之相關權益應與原住民族共享"},{"start":5831.061,"end":5852.181,"text":"涉及原住民族土地開發利用限制英語原住民族諮商並取得同意那我們現在看到川普政府已經退出巴黎協定也就是說他原本的國家對美國政府對國家的一個所謂的可能是從30億美金的一個"},{"start":5853.962,"end":5877.787,"text":"支出呢他直接Cut down也就是說我們政府會不會因為這樣也對我們未來的這個發展呢做一些減緩或者說有一些其他的想法院長你可以回答嗎其他的想法也就是說美國他Cut down了他對這個方面的一個支出跟支持那我們政府是不是也會受到影響"},{"start":5878.814,"end":5891.611,"text":"我覺得共同維護一個乾淨可以永續的地球到底是這一代人類共同的可是當你付出很多沒有實際的實質回報的時候你會不會想要減緩這方面的支出"},{"start":5892.335,"end":5920.002,"text":"我們照原有的步驟繼續向前進OK那我想先知道原民會主委的想法就是說我們針對創造就業機會我知道在環境部這邊他有想要培育人才綠領人才那他說他要預計在北中南一年要大概今年要訓練3500人那3500人裡面我不知道環境部有沒有跟會會去討論說如果按照人口比例我們原住民"},{"start":5920.482,"end":5940.056,"text":"裡面受教受訓練的一些專業人才是不是應該至少要70名到105名之間那你這個人才的這個培訓計畫裡面你有沒有被知會好謝謝委員我想這個人才的培育有關這個岩箱這個碳會的問題我們這邊有已經也跟我們自己的族人"},{"start":5940.58,"end":5964.411,"text":"做超過10場以上的說明會我們也會繼續來辦那比如說我是一個鄉長我要到原民會去拜託是到縣政府去說我以後要做這方面的產業那我是要跟哪一個單位來說明因為我沒有看到專責單位原民會的專責單位在哪裡我們在經建處那你知道我們現在原住民的一個燙會的規模大概是多少嗎"},{"start":5965.558,"end":5989.075,"text":"我們現在還沒有 我們現在就是希望說趕快因為部落都還不清楚這個事情我知道 所以因為已經十年要即將這個頒布法令要十年了可是我每次一問就是說還沒有一個一致性還不知道該怎麼弄那我剛剛又查了一些資料其實至於碳盤查到現在還沒有一致的規定所以環境部長這邊也在三老金他希望在近"},{"start":5989.835,"end":6006.56,"text":"至少在今年可以成立新的一個所謂的碳盤廠基準然後每三年更新一次那這個部分你們會這邊有備資會嗎有 我們在一頁我們已經成立淨碳的這個永續發展這個小組那我們也送出這個原住民"},{"start":6007.216,"end":6028.864,"text":"足經濟永續發展計畫的草案我們希望這個推出去之後我們研擬之後這個草案我們會繼續來做之前在屏東縣當過處長是也長期在屏東縣那我想知道說如果就屏東縣那個碳的規模我們原向的大概可以在利益上面你覺得可以分配到多少資源"},{"start":6029.862,"end":6050.559,"text":"現在要精算還不曉得但是這個有一個重點這個不影響到我們的淨化補償就是你在淨化補償一樣可以做這樣的東西我是想幫園民會爭取資源所以我才會這樣算你這樣算的話是不是因為有一個叫做管理基金就是衛生氣體管理基金以後這個部分"},{"start":6051.527,"end":6080.478,"text":"你在盤查盤算的時候在整個碳會的一個機制裡面你至少要知道說有多少基金會到中央這邊來啊你以後要去分配的這些資源要到哪裡去啊所以這個部分你是不是應該先去了解我現在大概有看到農業部財政部所轄台灣吉寶結算所針對原鄉碳會或是企業投入ESG已經有建立了相關的平台建置了那其實ESG最被人詬病的是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":6082.644,"end":6099.473,"text":"大部分就是他的透明度還有他的票率也就是說其實他並沒有做出相當的投資可是他卻寫了這樣子的一個計畫出來還有他的透明度他認為他應該是多少可是我們一般的人無從得知他的計算結果"},{"start":6100.473,"end":6117.859,"text":"所以就簡單來講我希望主委你自己應該很清楚去了解他們在做這些所謂的試算跟原先的這些ESG的計畫裡面我覺得你應該要主導來掌握 可以嗎可以 我非常感謝委員這樣重要的提醒 透明度"},{"start":6118.459,"end":6144.244,"text":"以及他整個事實上的方式我想原民會一定是跟大家關係最密切的原民會也可以同時請環境部來支援他做很多這樣的工作這就對我剛才講的溫室氣體的管理基金所以我希望他的用途上面能夠明定一些方向因為之前的法律裡面並沒有針對這個法案做修正或者是增加所以我在第33條裡面今年提了一個修正案也就是說"},{"start":6144.764,"end":6172.804,"text":"33條第13款希望在補助及獎勵失業與原住民地區推動自然資源與生態多樣性的維護教育及宣導事項這些辦法是由中央跟原民會去訂定的這是之前是沒有的所以希望主委能夠先了解這方面的一個情境跟我們立法的一個想法好不好好然後最後就是說我希望請教卓仁泰院長說原住民地區的自然攤會"},{"start":6173.752,"end":6179.396,"text":"又或是與企業合作一同推動ESG方面我們原住民委員會做了哪些建樹"},{"start":6181.737,"end":6205.952,"text":"剛剛主委有說明過他們辦了10場的說明會有300多人來參加我發覺陸續還會再舉辦而且剛剛所提到成立一個淨零永續的發展推動小組在這個小組裡面會擬定各項的一個工作的要項同時原住民經濟永續發展的發展計畫115年到118年他們也會陸續的提出我想針對原住民族"},{"start":6206.533,"end":6213.947,"text":"在台灣很多好山還是好水的地方我們既然希望他維持就應該有能力讓他自己能夠維持所以提供給他更多的這樣的資源"},{"start":6214.944,"end":6237.229,"text":"我希望有一個APP比如說我是一個一般民眾我想知道說我對自然攤位的貢獻比如說我身處在屏東縣我就會知道說屏東縣的自然攤位的資源是多少那如果我是一個鄉長我要知道說我這個鄉可以掌握的資源是多少我覺得至少在以後在這個資訊的一個透明度要讓大家知道才會知道說我作為一個個人作為一個"},{"start":6238.229,"end":6247.371,"text":"一廂之長我能夠做的努力在哪裡可以嗎謝謝再次謝謝委員的提醒這個非常重要第二個議題就是說針對我在114年4月10號收到園民會的公文首先先謝謝園民會願意補助70萬可是他們實際的需求是92萬1600元那我想知道說你們的難處在哪裡"},{"start":6262.829,"end":6283.084,"text":"納瑪夏區公所要協助區公所的蒸化邊的工作我跟委員報告這個機會不多啦是不多但是就是說不管是哪一個不是多不多的問題因為他延宕了很久他如果有需要我們都會核實來協助就是說這個"},{"start":6285.606,"end":6300.575,"text":"那麼下這個部分這個早在去年應該是吳立豪委他就有提出來那我們每一年光是平均補助就超過了525萬都有協助各鄉的困境"},{"start":6301.275,"end":6320.209,"text":"那當然就是那個時候孔賢傑七長他來他也要我們來協助那我們想說我們也很快的就是說他要的經費很快就給他補充短缺的22萬要公務員去承擔嗎不是不是不是我想我有跟他講好如果說還是不夠我們還是願意來協助啊"},{"start":6320.549,"end":6348.215,"text":"好所以就針對這個問題原鄉公所所謂的原住民鄉公所在振化邊保留地所謂的私有的負帳啊分割經費啊這些部分你們有沒有做每年的一個說經費預算的一些編列不然每年如果遇到這些問題你們要怎麼去哪裡找錢我每一年有編這樣的在圖管處都有編這樣的經費類似有公所提出來對啊可是你還是沒有達到他們要的92萬1000是你只核定了70萬給他"},{"start":6349.468,"end":6374.337,"text":"其實我跟委員講 他講92萬可是我願意協助到這樣 他已經應該是他就是在跟我講說可以如果真的不夠有什麼關係我還是會再協助到因為各鄉都會遇到這個問題這是剛好是納馬下來文 我們來幫忙這樣好 第二個就是 第三個就是我們國立原住民博物館這個進度啊我再追蹤一下我想知道他現在的用地取得有沒有問題"},{"start":6375.368,"end":6390.982,"text":"優適期的沒有問題了現在我們的籌備處也已經成立了那現在籌備處未來會在高雄市政府的隔壁那現在正在做裝潢現在也正在做一些這個內部設施的一個整理那目前人"},{"start":6391.775,"end":6408.876,"text":"人是在暫屆文化延期的辦公處所那很快我們的土地都已經起的我們很快現在在下半年度我們就會先推出一個驗警館驗警館就會推出來以後他們裡面的工作人員是不是已經在原住民特考裡面的"},{"start":6410.037,"end":6432.877,"text":"名額裡面在招生 或者是說有在訓練了有 我跟委員講沒有辦法一下子就補齊啦那當然就至少目前的人力已經有到二分之一了 一定有二分之一那興建進度呢 至少有八個人啦怎麼時候可以動土啊籌備處沒有想說要怎麼樣的大興投目因為畢竟它是一個籌備處而已"},{"start":6434.133,"end":6457.962,"text":"那等到就是說縣警館如果到一個就是說要動工那個時候我們再來跟外界來做說明籌備處我想其實是主要是行政工作啦還有一些作業的一個沒有必要去做完工的時間大概是什麼時候大概一年半之內那個縣警館就會我說整個國立原住民博物館大概什麼時候可以蓋好"},{"start":6458.979,"end":6476.088,"text":"全部 全部沒有那麼快 全部至少你至少因為這個是14公頃的土地很多人想要去那邊工作可是他不知道說到底是什麼時候會遙遙無期啊萬一他想應徵可是他覺得說這個可能我到老都還沒有看到我想知道到底什麼時候可以往工啟用啊"},{"start":6476.368,"end":6492.536,"text":"我們當然越想越快越好但是這個期程從一百二十三年到一百二十年那當然這個我們希望能夠加速蓋一個博物館面積又那麼大而且這個計畫是逐年來編列不是說一次就到位"},{"start":6492.796,"end":6510.351,"text":"沒有辦法確定一個時間表如果今天已經40歲了我想好好發揮我的對原住民文化的一個專才結果我60歲了要退休了這個博物館還沒有蓋好有些人有生涯規劃嘛所以你至少要讓我們原住民一些專業人才知道說我有沒有機會去那裡上班"},{"start":6511.191,"end":6533.133,"text":"6年到7年我想我們想就讓他營運就能夠也就是說30歲的人左右可以去想這些事情是吧本來很多的工程的施作是一定要時間的我們進入下一個主題就是說其實常常看到原住民保留地長期受到一些擔保或者是設定 借民登記這個部分"},{"start":6534.054,"end":6549.655,"text":"我知道之前的我們的圖管處的處長就是現在副主委在這部分他有一些了解那他說他會去盤查去盤點我們全國原住民保留地到底有多少比例是被屆民登記被設定的你們現在有報告書可以出來了嗎"},{"start":6550.745,"end":6579.691,"text":"我跟委員報告所以我們為什麼要提出原住民保留地就是說它的條例的一個修正因為我們不希望這樣的事情一直在發生可是你要掌握然後掌握以後要如何去解決然後如何去預防現在我們要發展原住民的經濟可是我們的土地常常是林業用地 農牧用地國土保安用地可是我們要去如何提高我們或者是說讓我們供股銀行去成"},{"start":6580.271,"end":6594.519,"text":"去承作他的貸款這個部分你們做了哪些努力目前就是說我們公股八大銀行他們也有提出來那麼他們更希望就是說是不是有這個"},{"start":6595.659,"end":6616.709,"text":"有這個辦理這個個人保證業務的一些這個那個中小企業是不是也來協助但是我們現在一直在想這個八大公股銀行如果可以幫我們做那是最好那我們目前也在研擬這個原住民保留地貸款信用的保證草案那我們希望今年會完成嗎今年會完成嗎"},{"start":6617.569,"end":6643.03,"text":"我們一直在跟這個八大公股這個銀行希望要嘛就大家看是哪幾家可以先做但是他們也提出一些修正計畫我們願意再補一直在 我們現在還在很快 已經在後期的討論了我知道現在內政部委託不動產估價施工會進行原住民保留地的估價方式的探討那報告書出來了嗎"},{"start":6644.471,"end":6668.09,"text":"目前還沒有我們尊重還是希望我們動作還是能夠快一點因為很多人都是嗷嗷待不希望他的土地有價值而不是永遠都在政府在想在想辦法可是辦法一籌莫展最後就是說關於我們巡山園也就是說我們的高山巷島協作園這個部分其實每次天災的時候或者是需要"},{"start":6669.19,"end":6691.815,"text":"像玉山這個步道需要有人去管理的時候或者是說有些人發生山難需要去救助的時候其實都是這些人在工作那我想知道說到底有沒有對他們一些待遇的一些保障或者說至少讓他們在投保的時候商業保險能夠不要因為他的工作性質是危險的而拒保所以希望"},{"start":6692.535,"end":6705.438,"text":"主委這邊把高山協作員翔導這邊納入一個高危險也就是說雖然是高風險可是是政府協助的一個工作項目好我們會特別要求我們的這個救護員好謝謝盧縣議委的資訊謝謝主委長原名會的備訓接下來我們請"},{"start":6722.157,"end":6734.325,"text":"登記第六位陳寅委員諮詢書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報在接下來請登記第七號林月琴委員請諮詢"},{"start":6750.651,"end":6757.437,"text":"謝謝主席好那麻煩我們的卓院長跟劉時芳部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備選林委員好院長部長早那今天要來跟你討論一個我們的"},{"start":6774.38,"end":6787.554,"text":"通學環境的一個課題這是我從民間就一直在關心然後進來立法院一年多也一直在關注的一個議題希望今天透過這樣的一個總質詢事上是可以針對現在"},{"start":6789.323,"end":6813.4,"text":"行政部門在努力的一個計畫案能夠更有知道一些困境之後是不是可以有更有一個方向去調動所以首先先問部長首先先問院長就針對於我們7到15歲的交通傷亡的狀態你覺得是有改善還是沒有改善包括學童包括青少年的事件就7到15歲"},{"start":6815.595,"end":6841.597,"text":"我們在行人的永續提升行人安全道路上面針對學校也對重要路口都有進行相關的工作那我當然希望降低但是目前降低的幅度應該是不大是像我們部長都有院長也充分掌握了那現在兒少的主動出行的這樣交通事故事實上目前看起來事實上"},{"start":6842.873,"end":6866.526,"text":"去年事實上是歷年最高而且尤其是自行車事實上是成長大概在五年前事實上成長了四成所以就想要問的是當然我知道就是說如果是主動出行還涵蓋行人跟其他的交通運據不過如果從行人來看的話我覺得還是要肯認我們的院長跟部長的努力的確提出了一些"},{"start":6867.006,"end":6892.766,"text":"相關的對應措施讓行人的傷亡事實上是7到15歲事實上是下降的不過當然也因為學上放學如果總體看上放學的數據事實上是還是高的所以我們就要來看就是說你們最近在一直在提出來的就是通學環境的改善計畫在通學改善計畫當中想問部長是不是了解到有一些問題事實上"},{"start":6896.826,"end":6907.692,"text":"你能不能充分掌握到有沒有一些非常謝謝林委員對於兒少尤其是交通安全的關心而且是長久以來的一個志工的工作我們非常的佩服"},{"start":6908.557,"end":6936.562,"text":"其實在院長的指導之下我們有一個永續提升人行安全計劃內政部所負責是260億交通部是140億但是我們現在所提的永續人行安全計劃對於學校周邊的部分僅注重於由地方政府所提上來的譬如說學校的周邊可能是一個四方形但是我們可針對這個門口後門或者側門的部分它可能是一個漏巷可能是一個不是有"},{"start":6937.202,"end":6956.39,"text":"大車子要經過的地方那這個部分的地方政府沒有提上來的時候呢我們上這個交通部或者是內政部呢在提供這樣子的一個改善計畫就忽略掉那這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向我想部長也很充分掌握雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年可是都充分掌握"},{"start":6956.73,"end":6984.913,"text":"我有三個課題想來跟部長做一個討論他好像都想改革只是看起來沒有人想要改變而且學區韓規韓可是沒有法規我覺得改善的進度事實上有一點慢為什麼這麼講首先我想問跟部長來看一下這張圖也就是說左邊跟右邊哪一個這是雲林縣古坑鄉的人行道的爭議哪一個是改善前哪一個是改善後"},{"start":6989.948,"end":7012.258,"text":"看起來沒有看起來沒有看起來右邊有改善但是呢這裡面的指引呢不是很清楚實際上左邊是上市改善前可是他也不能講改善前是你們補助經費之後他改善成改善前可是後來民眾反對又改回來原來的樣子叫做改善後所以那筆錢簡直就是"},{"start":7013.342,"end":7042.258,"text":"沒有意義就是它等於事實上是效果有限而且所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通所以我才會講說大家好像都要改革可是好像沒有人要改變民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的有可能事實上是認知錯誤為什麼講認知錯誤甚至有民眾提出來說為什麼限縮我們的車道然後要鋪設人行道那這樣行車很危險我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋甚至"},{"start":7042.978,"end":7059.935,"text":"有時候民代里長跟議員都出面反對的時候常常做到一半就會像我們剛剛看到雲林縣股根鄉最後又改回來原來樣子那前面花的錢不是都是浪費的嗎甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難比如說"},{"start":7060.779,"end":7083.651,"text":"被謾罵或者甚至被黑衣人包圍的我們就會收到這樣子的一個訊息可是我們看日本的一個經驗來看的話他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作所以他們會用工作坊、意見交流的會議甚至透過問卷調查"},{"start":7084.972,"end":7098.412,"text":"然後來共同制定相關的計畫然後甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫然後滾動式的去檢討甚至有去入校宣導甚至會有去做稽查"},{"start":7099.111,"end":7124.055,"text":"台灣不是沒有為什麼因為我們在113年5月1號就通過了行政條例第6條也賦予了一些責任說你要針對環境調查第7條也賦予了說要跟當地的民眾好好的去去做溝通甚至有一個範例可以依循的就是台南台南事實上是公民團體呢跟政府一起配合台南人本"},{"start":7124.475,"end":7152.172,"text":"交通協會一直在宣導說你做人行道呢就送車位你還是有車位不要用車位來阻擋人行道的鋪設所以才能重得市場就是一個很好的範例所以不是沒有一個好的例子在做所以也期待是不是可以針對於這樣子的第一個困境裡邊可以去考量嗎中央應該輔導地方政府來針對協助提案單位"},{"start":7152.905,"end":7171.299,"text":"還有呢當然我覺得要做一些社會溝通了解民眾的需求到底是什麼他們的反對的聲浪到底又是什麼而且希望能夠透過工程設計跟兼顧人形設施的那個設置跟停車的需求來達到大家有共識之後然後去布設才不會像"},{"start":7171.872,"end":7195.165,"text":"雲林縣谷坑鄉這樣子的一個反覆最後沒有解決問題那我也想問部長有沒有機會因為大家都沒有看過好的範例可不可以優先補助我們的改善效益高且執行可行性的地點比如說六都找個兩個地點示範地點讓民眾感受到好的地方的時候他們很多家長才會想說我也想要比照這樣辦"},{"start":7196.005,"end":7216.461,"text":"我不知道部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎謝謝委員我想委員你提供一個非常好的觀點就是說光是工程設施的改善或者是光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全尤其是校園安全上的顧慮所以你倡議希望能夠加入所謂的公民參與"},{"start":7217.862,"end":7239.512,"text":"或者是加入志工團體那如果說有很好的案例的話目前我們會提供六個直轄市政府先辦理兩處通學區的改善示範計畫那如果有機會的話我們也請委員一起來參與就是說裡面的學校的家長團體或者是外面的有關於交通安全的不一定是只有警察或者交通警察或者是村里長"},{"start":7240.512,"end":7255.506,"text":"他們都可以加入讓大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園的學童的通學的安全這是我們最大的希望謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾因為你們已經很努力做只是說我覺得線維問題還是要去解決讓民眾的反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會"},{"start":7256.747,"end":7281.563,"text":"第二個困境就是說我們好像講學區那也可是學區到底是什麼可是我們看這張圖的話我們現在做法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了甚至我覺得在看這個牌面的時候我覺得不太可思議的地方就是說我們的數字線還是50到60那在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況所以我們的通學區通學道路通學路廊江部跟"},{"start":7282.964,"end":7300.278,"text":"我們的內政部有一些定義在可是如果走到地方的話我覺得有點讓我們覺得傻眼什麼通學項竟然還只是沒有給人行道只是一個通學項來封閉時段根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題他們上放學的一個困難所以學校呢"},{"start":7300.738,"end":7318.885,"text":"可能基層都會是我覺得孤軍奮戰的結果那目前全額補助的區目前大概都是申請的都是學校四個圍牆周邊有人行道那如果跨出這個四個周邊的跨出去的只有占到0.8%只有"},{"start":7320.697,"end":7348.795,"text":"台中南投跟苗栗三岸而已那99%就會是這個樣子的狀況根本就是跨出學校門口以外我就沒有路可以走了問題這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎也是會嘛所以我們來看南韓南韓事實上花了28年他們在1988年到2016年他們做了幾件事把學區的定義清除"},{"start":7350.035,"end":7367.507,"text":"還有呢標誌標訊否學校讓人家很清楚不是像我們只有一個檯面讓人家非常清楚的知道說學區到了還有個數限30那他們花了28年我認為台灣大概沒有辦法有這麼多年因為我們的出生率是一直下降"},{"start":7368.194,"end":7388.916,"text":"去年都只到13萬5我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握可是他們下降96%非常難所以我也希望說我們有能不能可以也像他們一樣所以希望比照比照我們的我不敢講說要到韓國或到日本可不可以在學校為中心點"},{"start":7390.39,"end":7401.745,"text":"擴散150公尺不用到300韓國是300日本是500所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的所以我們就希望說可不可以有一個清楚的定義學區然後有否學校的標誌標線跟樹線"},{"start":7404.989,"end":7434.011,"text":"我不知道部長或院長怎麼看尤其是院長這邊謝謝委員對孩子的關心我想這個學區的法治化的話恐怕不只有內政部包括交通部還有教育部還有地方政府因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府都要一起來討論那您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做可是現在會碰到現實的困難就是越舊的學區人口越多就會像您剛所PO出來在新北的地區它可能一出去就是快速道路"},{"start":7434.671,"end":7455.494,"text":"那這部分呢我們在工程改善上面或者是說在學區的這個定義上面怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討讓我們有機會跟這三個部會一起來處理學區法治化的問題那確保那個通學的安全比較重要我相信因為院長應該也在院務會都有討論我知道也很努力所以我還是希望能夠"},{"start":7456.235,"end":7474.376,"text":"有一個進一步的示範區出來之後讓大家廣為人知之後可以比照另外困境3就是改善的進度我覺得還是太少太慢為什麼講因為為什麼112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還是沒有完工的狀態"},{"start":7476.764,"end":7493.084,"text":"為什麼會這麼慢原因是因為我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的一個工作因為他既然是做總機呢他就是把很多問題都丟給提案的學校那提案學校來做那他們寫的東西學校不是一個工程單位他寫的東西都不符合事實上"},{"start":7493.604,"end":7512.162,"text":"我們公共工程裡邊要改善的這種樣態那最後就會是什麼我們的國土署也很辛苦省的案子還要一直來回來回溝通然後溝通到好的時候要做的時候做到一半又是我剛剛提的里長議員反對的時候又改回來又來變更計畫所以就會變成速度上是慢的"},{"start":7512.898,"end":7539.413,"text":"那可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況所以可不可以要求未來標案未來他們要來申請案子的時候要求地方政府要拿出這些數據拿出他這些東西來作為一個依據然後另外一個是不是可以要求拜託一下就是說可不可以讓我們的中央是不是可以提供學校"},{"start":7540.185,"end":7563.323,"text":"一些交通改善的一個方向在而且也期待能夠公民團體一起參與公民團體可以做的一件好事情就是說他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力我覺得應該要善用公民團體的一個他們的能量那2021年我們的CRC國際審查委員"},{"start":7563.919,"end":7588.12,"text":"他很了解台灣的問題他說政府已經採取許多措施肯認我們解決了交通事故的死傷問題包括交通安全教育跟建立校園的停車區可是他也認為 委員會也覺得說建議中央政府要採取行動來確保地方層級在執行相關法規的時候來確保我們兒少對交通事故跟運輸政策制定的實質參與"},{"start":7590.423,"end":7594.074,"text":"明年我們要交第三次國家報告了這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見"},{"start":7596.84,"end":7625.261,"text":"可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候我們怎麼去回應他的確提出來說台灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了所以有效的措施才能夠解決問題所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作那當然我想說部長也會覺得因為學校要地方政府那我覺得可能中央也要來促使我們的地方政府能夠積極的協助不是地方政府都沒有責任就把它丟到"},{"start":7625.821,"end":7648.658,"text":"給一個學校那這樣子學校通常他做不了事情所以縣市政府才是實際的執行單位要確認這個角色還有要強化跨單位的合作那跨單位可能他的公務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校而不是把它丟給一個學校這樣子的話學校大部分沒辦法做事而且教育單位要來彙整路徑"},{"start":7649.378,"end":7673.411,"text":"學校周遭的那個路徑因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料可是江部有一個很好的道安資訊平台是可以得到的那我也希望部長這邊是不是可以調整補助計畫的程序引進交通工程的專業來支持還有外部的支援譬如說公民團體交通的專業當然有引進我三項跟委員報告第一個"},{"start":7674.991,"end":7703.246,"text":"因為學校周遭一定需要地方政府合作很多的鼓勵取得等等第二個 我們原來規定原來的計畫是四百個學校一年完成兩百個目前這傷害有增加我會把這個完全結束第二個 新的學校周遭的這個安全政策我要求再增加一下一定要延伸到一個足以安全的選舉動盪還可以把這部分做得完美謝謝 非常好所以去年的彰化新的彰化核爆已經下降了那後面"},{"start":7708.868,"end":7727.953,"text":"好 謝謝林月琴委員質詢謝謝卓院長內政部長的備詢 謝謝接下來登記第八位王逸川委員質詢書面提出我們請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報 報議會現在我們休息十分鐘十分鐘之後我們繼續進行質詢 謝謝"},{"start":8388.324,"end":8416.405,"text":"現在我們繼續開會接下來請高津素梅委員請質詢韓院長早安現在我們要先請園民會的主委曾主委麻煩請園民會備詢卓院長先休息一下但是也請你好好聽一下我對曾主委的質詢好嗎謝謝"},{"start":8423.715,"end":8448.824,"text":"委員好曾志偉早安早在今年的3月12號您率領你的主管來我的辦公室做業務報告我看得出來您是有心要做事而且有心要改變但是很遺憾的是您身邊的幕僚恐怕正在拖累整個人民會因為他們做出很多錯誤的決策甚至還發布了一些問題百出的新聞"},{"start":8449.864,"end":8470.377,"text":"而首先我現在要先跟你談的是,我看到園民會的第一個問題,就是人力流動率非常的驚人。在新莊聯合辦公大樓的不僅僅只有園民會,還有文化部跟治安署。園民會裡面有198名的正式人員,短短的10個月裡面,異動了45個人。"},{"start":8472.878,"end":8500.642,"text":"這將近四分之一耶我們對比文化部、職安署他們都是以內部升遷為主而原民會呢都是申請外調這高達了29個人超過了六成啊好可怕 你看這個數據沒有而今年的1月行政院提出的霸凌案件報告裡面也大聲的疾呼要落實總統改變職產文化杜絕霸凌的政策指示"},{"start":8501.142,"end":8516.455,"text":"要確保公務體系能夠健康的運作同時也承諾行政院院長要要求各機關全面清查是不是存在霸凌的行為並且要迅速調查跟依法處理請問主委 園民會"},{"start":8518.577,"end":8536.042,"text":"這麼多人的離開這代表原民會的職場環境是讓人待不下去的大家不是升遷而是紛紛的逃離請問一下你是不是有全面清查調查是不是有職場霸凌或者是管理上的問題好 謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":8536.823,"end":8559.225,"text":"我要跟委員講 延民會的流動力這麼高 不是現在才有我來了以後才知道 因為延民會沒有宿舍那我們大部分都是從延鄉來的我們的族人甚至於他們在考試填字驗的時候 也不太喜歡填延民會因為這嚴重影響到他的生活主委 我在立法院已經23年了"},{"start":8561.067,"end":8578.122,"text":"第一次園民會流動率那麼高您剛剛講的問題是長年存在的問題這十個月當中還不到一年所以你是不是在這邊承諾我要回去調查一下可不可以一個月之內給我一些你們調查的書面報告可以嗎可以"},{"start":8578.482,"end":8606.292,"text":"好 謝謝現在我要跟你談業務執行你們荒腔走板的例子比比皆是喔我們就拿禁法補償這個問題來說去年呢本席在這兩次的院會執行裡面你一再的護航說禁法補償的公務與預算不足可以用綜合發展基金來支應可是事實是這樣嗎沒有貴會提出的最佳預算的申請你們清楚的寫說"},{"start":8607.572,"end":8622.231,"text":"需要将近24亿元而我在今年也查了三月份最新的报表我们的基金扣掉负债之后可以动用的现金剩不到14亿这是根本不够用的"},{"start":8622.992,"end":8651.488,"text":"您知道嗎但是沒關係主委您應該知道11月7號我們的行政院長他承諾他的錯誤他要用追加預算來補救淨髮補償請問一下主委今年9月我們的族人可以如期領到一公頃6萬塊的淨髮補償金嗎謝謝可以可以嗎可以我們有提出追加這個預算就是補足那個你已經提出追加預算了嘛但是院長已經核定了嗎"},{"start":8652.23,"end":8666.34,"text":"目前還沒有但是我相信院長會謝謝您希望您的回答院長聽到了我們再來看一下剛剛三讀通過的園民會組織法裡面有關族群委員無脊植的議題園民會你們發新聞稿說"},{"start":8669.895,"end":8694.258,"text":"族群委員名單不是主委你一個人的一舉一擲之決定而是依照各界公推還有透過審查的結果實際上根本沒有公開推薦的程序啊絕大部分的族人也不清楚知道我們族群委員的功能是什麼最後我們看到的就是一片綠油油立委的助理國家養另外呢 族群委員的人事費"},{"start":8695.239,"end":8724.682,"text":"我們希望他改聘正式的公務員的這個議題上園民會你們又發新聞稿說這個決議是沒有法律效力的沒有辦法實質保障主任的權益但是主委你看一下人事行政總署在1月6號發函給你們園民會要要求你們配合修法然後請你們評估人力的需求並且要循程序函報行政院"},{"start":8725.242,"end":8731.433,"text":"主委这是你没有无视法律呢还是你的幕僚在欺骗你给你错误的讯息"},{"start":8732.182,"end":8760.61,"text":"委員我跟妳報告因為刪除掉了這個族群委員那當然對我們的一些行政量能真的是沒有我現在跟你講的是我們刪除了這些無給值的這些預算之後把這個錢拿去改聘為正式的公務員而且我們的附帶決議也這麼說可是呢你們卻說這個是沒有法律效力的可是人事行政總署已經告訴你們啦要求你們配合啊"},{"start":8761.27,"end":8782.641,"text":"主委所以你們喔真的實在是你要進入狀況我很擔心你的幕僚都在欺騙你喔不是欺騙啦委員我跟你講再來再來再來我們來看一下員警吧主席委員的這個聘任從以前就是這樣子的進行嘛主委主委人事總處已經告訴你了他是有法律效力的啦所以請你們園民會要配合修法看到了沒有"},{"start":8783.001,"end":8807.571,"text":"我們也有配合請就說有一些我們希望已經請你配合修法了再來我現在跟你談的是原基法原基法在一百零四年增訂了第二之一條要要求設置部落公法人可是民進黨執政這八年來申不出一個部落公法人現在你們園民會申出了一個叫做什麼公法人事辦計劃"},{"start":8808.891,"end":8828.303,"text":"然後我們看到這個事辦計畫的草案,目前規劃是每一個部落要給他一百萬,人事費就佔了六成六十萬,然後業務費佔了四成四十萬。請問一下主委,部落公法人事辦計畫是不是有限定部落的數額?"},{"start":8830.004,"end":8856.347,"text":"沒有 我跟委員報告為什麼要有事辦這個計畫因為我來之後我想講了這麼多年都沒有辦所以原住民的支持一直是停頓我希望說找幾個部落我們負責任的來找幾個部落為什麼要找這幾個部落是有原因的我們認為這個部落不管是村長代表部落會議的主席還有地方的核心幹部可以"},{"start":8856.977,"end":8885.103,"text":"比較能夠有一些共識所以我們希望找這幾個部落做得成功之後讓其他的部落也來看主委我聽到您的說法了我覺得您的說法是沒有辦法說服族人的啦因為你們沒有公開說明沒有公開堆建沒有公開審查這是不是又是一個綠油有事半板然後呢部落應該是由下而上不應該有園民會你們密室圈定啊"},{"start":8885.663,"end":8910.935,"text":"所以我在這邊要求你要公開決策公平然後建立民主參與跟資訊的透明機制讓全國七百多個部落都有公平競爭的機會畢竟人事費六十萬業務費四十萬這是一百萬不少的金額對部落的族人來說它會是另外一個人事的安排不是嗎好接下來我要再跟你談一算"},{"start":8914.277,"end":8935.77,"text":"這確實不是利有有的部落那請問一下你現在核定的這些部落他們有公開說明嗎現在核定的部落有幾個我們有下去跟他們做溝通做說明我們700多個部落裡面你是怎麼樣公開跟大家來說呢部落是如何來跟你原民會申報計畫呢這些你都沒有說明啊好啦 接下來我要跟你談預算"},{"start":8937.051,"end":8964.251,"text":"在114年度的预算里面 原民会你们新闻稿又对外说什么对于推动族语教会的一亿一千万元的预算要采取冻结的措施这严重冲击到部落发展看到新闻稿我真的是摇头我觉得你们原民会是不是人格分裂了因为我们在提这份说明的时候这个提案的时候说明清清楚楚这反映的是基层的现况"},{"start":8964.831,"end":8981.429,"text":"因为有族人跟我还有原民会的教文处反映相同的意见这个意见是什么就是针对推动落实族语生活化的执行意见我们看一下同样是执行落实族语生活化的族语保姆的政策"},{"start":8982.33,"end":9001.825,"text":"他有非常严谨的查核机制还有访视人员还有专管中心而主语教会没有甚至连审查主语教会核销的会计事务所他们都发出声明这个声明说什么看一下非依照审计准则查核"},{"start":9002.489,"end":9030.076,"text":"因此对上述各受奖励的单位也就是各教会的运作情形它的整体是不是允当表达什么不提供任何程度的确信主委您看一下连会计事务所他们都不甘帮圆明会跟教会背书了这里面是不是有很大的问题啊所以呢本席就跟教文处一起开会我们做出了结论"},{"start":9030.756,"end":9055.797,"text":"我们把这些预算先暂时冻结然后来修订原住民族语言发展补助办法然后把主语教会主语保姆语推组织等等这些团体或者是个人未来他都可以申请到原民会的经费补助而且很重要的是不受年限的限制主委你应该知道主语教会的政策是根据"},{"start":9056.998,"end":9085.034,"text":"國家語言整體發展方案這五年計畫 對吧到116年就沒有族語教會的政策了耶所以我們修訂這個辦法就是為了未來我們族語推廣的政策可以更擴大適用對象並且要常態性的補助沒有年限的主委 你難道不支持嗎我們改過這個補助的辦法一樣的教會也要循這個辦法來"},{"start":9087.375,"end":9110.442,"text":"這正是我要跟您說的很好主委 您是支持的因為這個新版原住民族語言發展補助辦法就在4月17號的時候已經按照我們所謂的解凍條件已經修正發布了嘛 對不對所以可見本席這個提案是有正當理由的我們不是在為難你們機關"},{"start":9112.122,"end":9138.516,"text":"如今呢你們也已經辦理完成事項了但是主委解凍報告還沒有送到立法院主委你當初都說了凍結這個案會衝擊博文可是現在可以解凍了可是現在已經可以解凍了很快就會提出來我們現在再整理可是你的意見好像跟行政院長不太一樣"},{"start":9141.678,"end":9156.307,"text":"所以你的意思是說你們會提出來對不對很好 內政委員會的召委是牛許廷我也請他趕快排好不好同樣是114年的預算我要現在跟你談的是南島民主論壇的問題南島民主論壇的問題更是離譜了"},{"start":9162.628,"end":9190.852,"text":"南岛民主論壇從109年到114年這是總共六年計劃所以從109年到113年已經花費了我們的公務預算2.2億也是佔全部公務預算的2.5億的九成所以我之前就請人民會請你們提出效益的分析你們給我的報告裡面最重要的成果是什麼華西巴里的音樂祭對吧"},{"start":9191.598,"end":9215.933,"text":"我仔細一看 華西巴黎的音樂劇根本不是用南島民主論壇的經費啊你們怎麼可以這麼樣的一花接木的這樣子提出報告啊 主委然後你的新聞稿又講什麼刪除預算勢必會嚴重打擊國際信任度跟外交處境請問一下圓圓會 你們是外交部嗎"},{"start":9216.853,"end":9239.42,"text":"還是說外交部他們連邦交都顧不好然後要拜託你們去做我還沒請你回答主委我要問你我要問你南島民主論壇到底創造了多少部落的工作機會為族人帶來了多少經濟效益你要不要再跟我講巴西瓦里喔巴西瓦里不是用這筆預算喔"},{"start":9240.748,"end":9267.507,"text":"我跟妳報告 這幾年來我們跟南島 特別是南島語系的不管是帛琉 不管是土豪魯 不管是馬紹爾我們原住民對國家有貢獻請問對部落造成了多少的工作機會然後多少的經濟效益我們花了這麼多錢總是要有一些經濟效益啊"},{"start":9268.007,"end":9283.699,"text":"我跟你講我們很多這些國家的留學生在台灣甚至於很多的大使來我們都請到部落去讓他們真正的感受到原住民的部落是什麼樣的狀況帶來的多少經濟效應這個部分是外交部做不到的"},{"start":9284.059,"end":9285.68,"text":"那些南島國家是我們自己的弟兄姊妹"},{"start":9305.667,"end":9322.82,"text":"主委你不是外交部你是園民會我們幫得上外交部的忙這我覺得原住民很驕傲不要在這邊辯解了你不是外交部你是園民會再來園民會今年的預算是不是增加13億我們是不是根本沒有刪你們的基本設施維持費"},{"start":9323.721,"end":9336.562,"text":"基本設施維持費沒有刪預算增加基本設施費也沒有刪可是呢你們園民會竟然發公文恐嚇我們鄉鎮市公所說看一下"},{"start":9337.854,"end":9366.503,"text":"補助項目要先凍結50%要回收重新核定重新調整預算結構後續要滾動調整主委你知道嗎基本設施維持費是本席在立法院這23年來替原鄉的鄉長爭取的另外的預算你們現在說要凍結50%然後要收回要全部要重新滾動調整請問一下你們為什麼要這麼做"},{"start":9367.674,"end":9377.105,"text":"委員我跟你講即便是刪 即便是動了預算有關這些我們社府的一些經費就是補助一些弱勢團體的從來沒有斷過但是這個基本設施費"},{"start":9382.992,"end":9405.22,"text":"是公所的一些基本設施的一些維持沒有做好立法院沒有刪除你們這筆預算啊那你們為什麼要公然的發公文給原鄉的公署要凍結50%呢但是我們要終結預算啊我們要終結預算來看就是說也很誠懇的公署講請你們按照科目我們不是刪掉請你們按照科目先50%而已嘛我們沒有刪也沒有凍結你憑什麼要凍結鄉公所的這50%預算好我們現在我要再問您"},{"start":9412.557,"end":9426.966,"text":"我們根本沒有刪這個預算 原民會的預算也增加了13億你們也不斷地發新聞稿 向我們的國人說推廣原住民族政策 編列的政策宣導費用3696萬元也遭到我們在野黨全數刪除該會未來就沒有辦法透過媒體來傳遞相關政策的資訊"},{"start":9437.812,"end":9464.994,"text":"導致族人錯失重要的權益請問族委我們沒有園民台嗎園民台每年拿我們人民納稅錢五億卻沒有辦法傳遞資訊嗎而你們園民會的錯誤宣導只會混淆視聽散佈錯誤的資訊預算明明是增加的你們卻還敢預算不夠然後你們一邊又花大錢散佈假消息這樣的園民會族人能夠接受嗎你們這樣子胡搞小搞難道"},{"start":9466.255,"end":9487.002,"text":"立法委員不應該好好監督你們嗎然後我們再看到原民會你們惡意散佈假消息之後民進黨的側翼就接著混淆視聽了請問主委台大園圖中心今年度流標是因為禁法補償的關係還是因為財化法的關係你知道嗎民進黨的側翼一直講是因為禁法補償和財化法的關係"},{"start":9488.582,"end":9510.935,"text":"看一下公文原民會1月23號回文告訴我台大沿途中心的流標是因為常年入管人士效益不彰再加上推廣活動另外外包辦理這導致招標金額比去年少請問是你說謊還是民進黨的側翼者說謊現在給你機會來澄清你講的這個本來是在台大來做"},{"start":9513.78,"end":9525.413,"text":"你已經回文給我了啦是因為他的入管人事效益不彰嘛所以不是禁法補償跟財化法的關係嘛對嗎好 謝謝現在我要再跟你談財政劃分授之法"},{"start":9529.497,"end":9542.53,"text":"你們的新聞稿說財政劃分修正影響了運作更將會嚴重衝擊原住民族的地區鄉鎮區公所的財政跟地方建設的發展請問一下財政收支劃分法修了哪幾條"},{"start":9544.911,"end":9557.143,"text":"這個我所知道的財政收支方法如果修了幾條你連修了幾條都講不出來然後精算的結果會影響多少原鄉的這些財政你都不知道會影響公所的財政啊"},{"start":9560.026,"end":9583.045,"text":"我問過主計總署 主計總署告訴我 園民會的預估只是可能延伸的情形 不是實際的狀況你連修了哪幾條也沒有辦法講出實際狀況 主委這是你應該做的事情嗎那你知道我提的財化法是要求行政院額外找到支持園鄉的薰球請問你支持我的修法嗎"},{"start":9584.047,"end":9587.252,"text":"額外給縣市政府好了我請卓院長 請韓院長 請卓院長 請卓院長"},{"start":9602.284,"end":9623.217,"text":"主委你要更加努力我知道你很認真但是你有一些幕僚真的在欺騙你請問一下院長你剛剛看到了我舉了那麼多園民會的問題它是嚴重失能而且人力流失非常的嚴重人事混亂決策錯誤假消息是滿天飛"},{"start":9624.238,"end":9634.96,"text":"我在這邊要求你責成園民會一個月之內調查我們人員外流的原因然後整頓人事團隊並且要停止散發誤導性的新聞稿 可以嗎"},{"start":9638.313,"end":9653.79,"text":"請主委能夠一個月內調查人員外流的原因同時對這個會內的人事團隊要做精神上的鼓勵那麼有沒有發布誤導性的新聞可以檢討沒有的話要向委員說明"},{"start":9654.451,"end":9678.137,"text":"好謝謝院長我要問你的就是金髮補償的問題在9月行政院遭到外界的批判了之後花了49天你們認錯不救了現在呢114年度的總預算也已經公佈原民會的追加預算也已經送到你的行政院了院長請問一下追加預算什麼時候會送進立法院金髮補償這一個"},{"start":9680.621,"end":9700.949,"text":"預算不夠的問題我們經過朝野黨團在行政院裡面溝通協調才達成共識並不是行政院認錯我們是協商主任最關心的是到底能不能夠在九月份的時候領到一公頃六萬塊的補償金跟委員報告現在我們針對"},{"start":9702.216,"end":9724.489,"text":"因美國這個關稅的調整世界貿易重整我們現在這個階段第一要向國人提出的是我們未來在這個禮拜之內要提出的特別條例我問您的是我的族人能不能拿到一公頃六萬塊看一下這不只是影響族人權益還關係到你們政黨某位立法委員的政治承諾請您聽一下"},{"start":9734.82,"end":9754.244,"text":"請問院長這很嚴重耶請問一下九月份到底族人能不能領到一公頃六萬塊的補償因為剛剛族委說可以領得到我們在處理特別條例特別預算之後我們會統合整個今年度的總預算到底被刪減的數字該怎麼處理之後一併就整體的最佳預算送出"},{"start":9755.338,"end":9759.708,"text":"請問一下監察院已經針對預算提出釋憲了行政院要跟進嗎"},{"start":9761.036,"end":9789.806,"text":"這一定會對預算案跟財務法所以我問候主席總書行政院一旦跟進並且憲法法庭財準暫時處分就無法處理追加預算即便剛剛我們考慮用綜合發展基金可是看一下到三月底可以動用的現金不到14億遠遠沒有辦法支應24億的預算缺口我再問你一次請你正面的回答我的族人九月份到底能不能領到"},{"start":9790.586,"end":9811.476,"text":"一公頃六萬塊的補償金如果行政院對預算案跟裁劃法提出釋憲如果提出釋憲也併同暫時處分的話影響的就不只是這十四億二十四億而已所以到底能不能領到我們會努力在特別預算特別條例特別預算之後等和現在"},{"start":9812.998,"end":9835.751,"text":"立法院向校行政院自行刪除的部分現在還沒有辦法刪除所以到底能不能領到剛剛主委說可以領到你們的執政黨的委員說如果沒有領到他要辭職我要請院長記住不論是你也好還是剛剛那位執政黨的立法委員我們的族人如果不能夠在九月份如期領到一公頃六萬塊的補償金的話"},{"start":9837.412,"end":9857.109,"text":"後果你們要自己承擔喔也請你們負起責任接下來我要講的是當前世界上最重要的事情也是台灣人民最關心的那就是美國對等關稅的議題從4月2號到現在政府團隊在應對對等關稅這件事情上你們不但錯估形勢而且手忙腳亂"},{"start":9858.05,"end":9877.826,"text":"你们也没有做好最好的准备做最坏的打算你们只知道盲目的顺从美国的政府的号令比起民进党政府被动的被川普吃干妈净我觉得新加坡总理黄荀才先生的态度更令我尊敬看一下黄总理他在4月8号国会发言的时候他说"},{"start":9878.587,"end":9903.203,"text":"對於美國宣布向新加坡徵收10%的對等關稅他感到失望他說新美有深厚的友誼這不是對朋友應該有的行為他還說美國只著重於貨物貿易但是實際上美國跟許多服務貿易夥伴都保持著順差美國向世界出口軟體服務"},{"start":9904.484,"end":9928.891,"text":"教育 娱乐 金融和商业服务等等我们可以看到尽管新加坡政府他也宣布了不在对等关税上面来报复美国但是黄总理他不卑不亢他诚恳说了实话他为什么呢我们民进党你们就不能够对这个所谓的坚弱磐石的朋友表示失望"},{"start":9929.631,"end":9949.96,"text":"你們為什麼不能夠用朋友的道義來要求美國呢而這樣的友誼難道不該懷疑嗎我在這五年來我一直對美國的對台政策跟你們發出警示我們為什麼要開放萊豬進口我們為什麼要放寬美國農藥殘留量的管制"},{"start":9950.62,"end":9975.935,"text":"我们为什么要接受美国提出来的台湾学人法案然后让美国官员到我们政府工作我们为什么要签署那个对我们贸易谈判根本非常不利的台美贸易倡议我们为什么要把九成以上的外汇存顶大把大把的去买美债而我的这些疑问其实总结起来就是一句话"},{"start":9976.815,"end":9997.16,"text":"一昧的依靠美國就是死路一條但是縱使我說了這麼多可是民進黨政府你們就是不聽美國政府說什麼民進黨政府你們就做什麼你們還貼標籤說我是以美論結果呢川普政府現在所做的行為"},{"start":9998.34,"end":10025.525,"text":"在我们看来就是以美啊华业美国是必要的因为只有这样我们才能够独立自主地做出最有利于人民的判断这一次的对等关税对台湾人民来说是灾难而我们的赖总统却要人民吃苦当吃补院长不向美国报复并不等于就该全面投降您认为呢"},{"start":10027.128,"end":10048.359,"text":"台灣當然不會向任何一個國家投降包括美國 包括中國在內但是我們對於川普總統的新的關稅政策我們在4月4號的記者會當中我們就說過了這是一個不合理的計算公式我們一定會提出嚴正的反應很好 我們都說過了4月4號但是呢 我們賴總統"},{"start":10049.6,"end":10066.463,"text":"他已經把底線都告訴了美國在4月15號的時候有委員質詢你政府是不是有考慮要加碼持有美債你說內部是有準備的我們任何選項都有討論不一定採行這樣的方式最近外傳"},{"start":10067.364,"end":10090.354,"text":"美國可能要逼迫美債的債權人將所持有的美債換成100年期的臨時債券針對這件事情中央銀行總裁楊金龍他也回應說如果真的是這麼樣的轉換那就相當是美債的倒債了那您之前有說關於加碼持有美債政府內部有準備請問是準備什麼"},{"start":10090.894,"end":10110.491,"text":"是加碼呢 還是轉換呢應該更正 我說我們任何的選項都在我到底會不會要你現在問你的是美債的問題對 它也當然是一個選項你們是加碼還是轉換我們在我們的方案裡面如果沒有提出來那就是不是我們的方案所以你認為購買美債再加碼美債不是你們的方案"},{"start":10111.169,"end":10134.608,"text":"這是一個選項,但是我們如果最後重整沒有提出來,那就是不是我們選舉的內容。好啦,我要在這裡告訴您的是,院長,不管是加碼還是轉換,結果都是楊金龍總裁他所說的,倒在。而經過川普這麼樣的震撼教育,台灣全民其實都聰明了,大家都在看,也都在等。"},{"start":10135.697,"end":10155.092,"text":"不是您在這邊一直三言兩語撥開重點在這邊打詢的態度我想台灣人民現在正面臨的是生死存亡的大事所以我們是要非常嚴肅的看待這樣的事情我們非常嚴肅"},{"start":10156.173,"end":10181.03,"text":"我們也從4月4號提出的9個面向20項措施當中也告訴國人我們對產業的支持所以我們先前是有準備的我們也提升了那我們現在的策略是備妥所有的協調談判的方案內容隨時準備啟動在第一次的正式視訊會議之後隨時準備下一次任何形式的談判請問第一次視訊會議你們的結論是什麼我們說過了雙方對於"},{"start":10185.083,"end":10210.832,"text":"對等關稅非關稅貿易障礙以及包括出口管制在內的多項議題都進行了交換意見現在我們要把這些意見重整之後等待下一次應該很快就會到來跟美方進行的談判第二次談判會是什麼時候這個因為美方還要爭奪很多的國家但是我敢跟委員說我們已經是在優先的國家行列當中多優先很優先"},{"start":10212.106,"end":10237.352,"text":"獨優宣媒我有告訴您什麼時候嗎我們認為我們應該在因為第一波的這個國家大概應該都這樣接觸像日本他也接觸過了其他也接觸過了我們認為我們會爭取最優先的時間你們認為會是在什麼時候九月以後嗎九月以後九月以後九月以後就超過九十天了九月之前當然之前"},{"start":10239.369,"end":10244.194,"text":"最後我還是要說不像美國低頭並不等於就該全面投降請你們堅持"},{"start":10256.158,"end":10271.465,"text":"接下來登記第10號李坤城委員之諮詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報在接下來請登記第11號武力華委員諮詢劉淑斌委員請準備"},{"start":10287.935,"end":10292.118,"text":"謝謝院長主席有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢吳委好院長好上個月我們賴總統他有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱說中國是境外敵對勢力"},{"start":10315.066,"end":10328.343,"text":"因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力的來因應這個做法那我在這裡呢想要先講一下我們在六七十年代"},{"start":10329.588,"end":10346.995,"text":"六七十年前那個時候我們都會念保密防諜人人有責檢舉匪諜保家衛國小心匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳朗朗上口但是我們發現匪諜一直都在"},{"start":10348.055,"end":10367.19,"text":"特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員呢他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢"},{"start":10368.951,"end":10393.482,"text":"然後從來不檢討中國反而是幫著中國去檢討美國、日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林、我們的家、我們的生命那我在這邊要先提"},{"start":10394.222,"end":10415.631,"text":"其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至"},{"start":10416.491,"end":10439.179,"text":"美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣"},{"start":10440.523,"end":10454.841,"text":"的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過"},{"start":10459.326,"end":10477.801,"text":"中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地"},{"start":10478.542,"end":10493.779,"text":"像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地"},{"start":10494.878,"end":10516.901,"text":"富坤崎他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可"},{"start":10517.722,"end":10534.957,"text":"那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員"},{"start":10538.871,"end":10564.117,"text":"我們以投資而言如果是用人頭投資的話因為我們現行的這些罰則它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責還有罰還好 謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項第一款第二款對不對要罰投資者也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委"},{"start":10564.577,"end":10593.249,"text":"那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那當然,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是陸人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長"},{"start":10595.865,"end":10596.825,"text":"請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算"},{"start":10610.751,"end":10636.819,"text":"那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記"},{"start":10637.939,"end":10653.057,"text":"算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以"},{"start":10653.657,"end":10675.929,"text":"這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了"},{"start":10677.31,"end":10694.106,"text":"我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦"},{"start":10694.707,"end":10712.1,"text":"好如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效"},{"start":10713.101,"end":10741.059,"text":"我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何"},{"start":10744.025,"end":10764.497,"text":"本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於他就是一個禁止的行為除非他有非常大的特例因為他相關的規定裡面他沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定他自始就無效的一個購地行為這個冒名"},{"start":10767.325,"end":10792.384,"text":"頂替的貿易人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利謝謝院長願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方經過審查人沒有問題地也不是基民地區"},{"start":10794.166,"end":10805.104,"text":"經過許可的共計有548件 列管147件繼續列管401件 好 不管我現在問說 那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地"},{"start":10806.209,"end":10831.666,"text":"回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧請袁明慧時間暫停我們委員跟妳介意好謝謝就是三位"},{"start":10832.366,"end":10835.349,"text":"有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料?"},{"start":10854.813,"end":10883.912,"text":"院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資"},{"start":10885.053,"end":10907.502,"text":"那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地"},{"start":10907.942,"end":10934.888,"text":"那我特別去國防部所知因為加山低地只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款"},{"start":10937.689,"end":10962.124,"text":"所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等"},{"start":10962.984,"end":10977.673,"text":"如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五峰鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬"},{"start":10978.733,"end":10984.434,"text":"獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者"},{"start":11008.68,"end":11029.913,"text":"開發者 前客 政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地 文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量"},{"start":11030.934,"end":11050.986,"text":"到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估"},{"start":11051.866,"end":11078.853,"text":"我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際使用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵有上一屆"},{"start":11079.833,"end":11106.933,"text":"行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押"},{"start":11107.974,"end":11116.002,"text":"這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議"},{"start":11131.317,"end":11149.408,"text":"那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應"},{"start":11151.109,"end":11163.339,"text":"我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成我們的相關部會要求內政部 原民會 陸委會 協同相關部會盤查中資 以人頭戶購買原保地的情形"},{"start":11167.523,"end":11192.215,"text":"第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員我們一定支持"},{"start":11193.707,"end":11215.617,"text":"總之進來購買任何的土地除非他經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會 陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃我們如果能夠增加國安安全"},{"start":11223.977,"end":11225.958,"text":"謝謝吳麗華委員的資訊,謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。接下來,我們請登記第12號,劉書斌委員,請資訊。"},{"start":11256.223,"end":11260.007,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":11270.885,"end":11288.48,"text":"主委好 再次恭喜主委長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成 克尊國家的法令就盡忠職守 如為誓言願受最嚴厲的處罰"},{"start":11289.881,"end":11305.462,"text":"好 那我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況"},{"start":11306.864,"end":11328.634,"text":"因此在十一條的時候在自由地區與大陸地區之間的人民關係是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區我現在就是要問"},{"start":11330.339,"end":11358.609,"text":"左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的"},{"start":11359.141,"end":11378.387,"text":"好 那是這個名字 那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對 所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對 是這樣的好的 這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面 他事實上是有一點"},{"start":11379.187,"end":11404.287,"text":"有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定嗎"},{"start":11406.425,"end":11432.599,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實 現狀事實是 這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你的確答對了就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形"},{"start":11435.101,"end":11454.783,"text":"我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會準備認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看"},{"start":11455.524,"end":11477.303,"text":"如果真的要面對到國際間的這樣的話在對內你是一個法治國家的時候呢最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的那這邊地方的時候呢我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的這個審查嗎"},{"start":11479.908,"end":11507.141,"text":"修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投是沒錯但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來來來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區我們自己的國家"},{"start":11507.731,"end":11529.986,"text":"一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫他中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲我現在審查都是可行之照好那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候"},{"start":11532.134,"end":11557.876,"text":"因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法呢認定他是一個定外敵對勢力嘛對不對那之後呢您在後來呢賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後呢他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分呢他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在"},{"start":11558.596,"end":11582.233,"text":"隔一天喔 3月14號的時候您也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯 好 這都是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議 行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議"},{"start":11583.467,"end":11599.132,"text":"舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好 但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢它事實上是總統的諮詢機構"},{"start":11602.902,"end":11631.113,"text":"總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下請問一下你們當因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下請問你3月13號這個地方你這一天你有提出來"},{"start":11632.872,"end":11635.115,"text":"行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有經過討論嗎3月13號對 禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大總統說法這個是一個"},{"start":11651.601,"end":11653.262,"text":"因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力"},{"start":11678.024,"end":11701.281,"text":"但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎"},{"start":11703.378,"end":11726.909,"text":"我等一下說明 你是還包括立法院 甚至還有重要的政策決策 根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎沒有 那是因為你沒有呼應 那是總統講的話沒問題可是您呼應 你是行政院院長您是最高行政 決策機關是在行政院會議 這確定吧報告委員 總統元旦講話 雙十講話 我們都有回應 都有呼應"},{"start":11728.356,"end":11755.388,"text":"但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再繼續往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對"},{"start":11758.259,"end":11782.75,"text":"總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用"},{"start":11783.77,"end":11800.795,"text":"這個部分 通通都要 重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個要經過立法院的決議這種情況好 所以呢 導致賴總統他本身做宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好 這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後"},{"start":11804.563,"end":11825.899,"text":"總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了我沒有甚至沒有在"},{"start":11826.98,"end":11846.723,"text":"立法院商通經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了"},{"start":11847.324,"end":11859.221,"text":"所以這個地方重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要決策立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是"},{"start":11862.168,"end":11880.962,"text":"少數的治理因為奈清德總統是40%產生的一個總統另外一部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有40%的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議"},{"start":11883.004,"end":11901.658,"text":"可是他的我們兩千三百萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心這大選研中心有說出來的百分之六超過六十的人是"},{"start":11903.045,"end":11928.782,"text":"維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這種情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是"},{"start":11929.562,"end":11957.638,"text":"中共的國家反分裂法您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把他分裂出去的話呢會導致或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個統一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平統一性因為你把他視為進對岸的一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試他用非和平的方式幫他施政班委員我覺得你不應該用"},{"start":11959.079,"end":11979.202,"text":"中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步兼逼哪一項不是境外敵對施以更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的"},{"start":11979.462,"end":11980.563,"text":"法律都是延續性的啊怎麼可能什麼黨"},{"start":11995.64,"end":11998.803,"text":"全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓他落實"},{"start":12017.467,"end":12027.542,"text":"這個是客觀事實舉世公正的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎"},{"start":12028.735,"end":12054.042,"text":"有威脅我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅在可是剛剛人家原因是什麼原因是什麼如果你看到果然看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有了這個他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習"},{"start":12055.822,"end":12065.79,"text":"我的意思是說 我們真的要好好解決尤其是 邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身 陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦等一下 院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶我說過 和平有兩種"},{"start":12080.342,"end":12094.187,"text":"一種是我們夠強 一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流"},{"start":12110.302,"end":12122.994,"text":"沒有這樣講 剛才主流是什麼 維持現狀維持現狀 你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流 我剛才已經說了民調呈現是60%是這樣子的 你不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的 不是嗎他是另外的 那是他的問題 我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊"},{"start":12135.435,"end":12136.976,"text":"我想我們仍然持續推動對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流"},{"start":12158.084,"end":12173.349,"text":"哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局讓地方他們竊口要來去要來去危害台灣用軍演的方式處理這才是承受到的權益"},{"start":12186.923,"end":12213.335,"text":"好 謝謝時間到了謝謝劉書斌委員質詢謝謝卓院長陸委會的備詢現在在我們二樓旁聽起來是德國愛德諾青年政治學校有來自印度馬來西亞蒙古緬甸尼泊爾菲律賓東帝文韓國以及德國所有年輕的政治學家Welcome"},{"start":12214.977,"end":12233.568,"text":"我們掌聲歡迎來 再一次報告委員會我們內政組的質詢已詢答完畢本次會議為委員提出臨時提案因此我們就不進行臨時提案之處理下午2點30分我們繼續召開外交及國防組織質詢先來休息"},{"start":14693.379,"end":14693.823,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":16304.541,"end":16305.674,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":17161.658,"end":17161.741,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17654.779,"end":17655.859,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":19553.046,"end":19553.575,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":20226.759,"end":20227.125,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":21617.216,"end":21642.949,"text":"抱怨會現在繼續開會進行外交及國防組諮詢請陳委員永康諮詢主席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21653.379,"end":21668.096,"text":"主委長您好從4月2號面對美國川普總統的對等關稅政策跟挑戰我想全世界的國家都承受了很大的壓力雖然在4月9號"},{"start":21669.568,"end":21698.898,"text":"他又宣布延後90天但是90天以後我們面對的挑戰目前是做預印呢還是分工呢還是未來看到有關全球貿易的到底是分裂呢還是美國所謂的競合我想我們國內的所有部會首長都在這邊窮盡功夫大家希望能夠以維護國家利益的前提下找到一個比較好的解套方案是"},{"start":21699.198,"end":21722.316,"text":"那么我目前先把这个议题搁置我先从恶务战争因为川普总统他说到从他上任以来是很快就会把恶务战争解决但是最近他面临到的挑战使他有一种想法甚至说他可以脱手不管了那因此这个产生的问题给了我们一个教训"},{"start":21723.217,"end":21740.644,"text":"我们可以看到乌克兰是一个领土广大的国家台湾是一个海洋海岛国家一个是靠路上交通线那么台湾是海上交通线情况状况都不一样这个俄乌战争打到今天已经1152天了"},{"start":21744.23,"end":21759.69,"text":"实际上在战争开始的头六个月,乌克兰的难民跑到欧洲国家已经超过1100万人,三年的战争下来虽然有几百万回去,目前还有600万。"},{"start":21760.771,"end":21786.24,"text":"在散播在欧洲各地那这种情况啊对台湾面对未来的两岸如果有一个冲突的挑战我们除了要照顾国人的安全另外一个就是我们在台湾的有很多的外籍的居民不只是从事事业投资教学也有我们很多友好邦交的这个Labor Force"},{"start":21786.9,"end":21814.73,"text":"那這個加起來我想外交部也了解將近90萬人那這種情況下要掌握一個預應時間讓友好國家跟我們有很好的溝通管道在兩岸情勢升級緊張到某種程度的情況下我們跟這些友好的國家要分擔責任我們要照顧我們的國民也要照顧其他國家在台灣工作的同仁那這邊你可以看到"},{"start":21816.229,"end":21845.378,"text":"烏克蘭跟台灣的面積比例是16.7比1那人口比例是1.9 4300萬4300萬對2300萬但是密度比是1比8.7就說台灣人口密度非常高如果起衝突了我們除了希望能夠產生嚇阻避免戰爭但是如果發生了就說中共犯台的情況下我們要保護我們的國土"},{"start":21846.921,"end":21872.14,"text":"這個城鎮戰跟烏克蘭的狀況是不一樣的那另外一個值得我們關注的就是人均耗電比我們面積這麼小可是我們的耗電是烏克蘭的3.4倍那這個情況下讓我們知道就是說這個電力的供應跟電力的傳輸是我們的關鍵技術設施的第一優先的考量"},{"start":21874.574,"end":21899.113,"text":"所以我们需要有一个所谓的共同图像这个图像是可以跨部会使用当我们谈乌克兰的时候我们了解台湾的大小也可以看到乌冬的战场目前这个面积已经可以含括两个台湾了所以它这个范例并不是适合拿台湾来比较说今天的乌克兰就是明日的台湾因为这个案例不同"},{"start":21899.873,"end":21918.862,"text":"那烏東的戰場因為有美國的星鏈的技術所以它前線的士兵戰士跟家人通訊手機可以通在烏東的地區它都是靠星鏈提供通訊那麼因為我們在台灣的岸上的固定站台或者是Wi-Fi"},{"start":21919.542,"end":21938.541,"text":"如果暫時衝突中斷的話雖然我們跟灣外不衛星公司簽約但是通訊頻道的數量以及頻寬還是有限的這個部分我們希望將來這個地方持續努力也要加強我們的韌性所以烏克蘭的戰場雖然看到了許多的無人機運用"},{"start":21939.903,"end":21949.781,"text":"幾千架上萬架的使用這種消耗型的無人機是因為有starlink提供鏈路才可以使用但這個case在台灣並不會"},{"start":21952.148,"end":21980.848,"text":"具有這種同樣的功能因此我們政府未來如果跟Starlink要做溝通因為馬斯克是說他要百分之百掌握權那我們政府當初是希望五十五十我想在這個溝通過程中間如果川普政府還是支持區域安全重視亞太和平我覺得這是一個溝通的管道那麼除了現有的英國的One World以外我們還要強化其他的鏈路那這個就是我們的社會韌性"},{"start":21981.849,"end":21999.583,"text":"那至於在加薩走廊的站場給我們一個慘痛的教訓也就是說當你失去電力供應失去了醫藥 失去了食水 失去了糧食這種情況下就是社會結構的脆弱性就抽出來了這張圖表顯示是從2022年的2月24號"},{"start":22005.711,"end":22028.243,"text":"俄国开始侵略乌克兰或进犯乌克兰在两个月之内俄国乌克兰美国欧盟甚至联合国它的重大措施政策事势都显示在这里面但是我们发现在其中就是在头两个月中间有三次可以"},{"start":22029.482,"end":22045.239,"text":"就是說停火協議但是都沒有達成目標當然每個國家他的政治目標跟他的軍事手段有不同的搭配方法可是如果以當時的現象來看今天如果達成停火協議當時是"},{"start":22049.537,"end":22077.408,"text":"俄羅斯希望頓內斯克 盧甘斯克兩個自治州變成獨立國但是今天變成四個州被佔領了加上克里米亞就五個地區如果當時能夠具有魄力就講不加入北約加入歐盟大家支持那烏東的戰場如果做一個很客觀的嚴肅討論這三年的仗除了一個世代的年輕人的教育人口"},{"start":22078.329,"end":22080.103,"text":"社會設施全部毀掉以外"},{"start":22081.982,"end":22108.862,"text":"戰爭的兩方沒有一個是贏家所以我們希望能夠掌握這種狀況看到關鍵的節點的時候要提供重要的分析因素因此這個方法論實際上是結合了這個所謂人工智慧的資料庫所以我們每一個戰場的情境我們都可以回溯將來檢討在哪個關鍵節點當時我們錯失了機會但是別人付出的教訓我們不要付第二次的學費"},{"start":22110.848,"end":22138.261,"text":"那這個是當時4月21號4月24號的一個模擬情境的戰場情形你可以看到在這個上面的這個動態顯示實際上從4月份以後整個戰場就沒有擴大縮小除了去年9月的這個烏東他打了一塊小地方克爾斯克但現在俄國又幾乎拿回去了所以現在的談判"},{"start":22139.517,"end":22160.085,"text":"可能要回到当年2015年2月15号这个明斯克二号条款可是呢因为双方在这13条里面都有背负了没有恪守这个条款的职责当然最后是俄罗斯撕毁条款那回过头来我们来想"},{"start":22161.315,"end":22168.099,"text":"當年這個二戰勝利我們光復台灣是因為馬關條約在1895年的4月17號當時簽訂馬關條約並不是單獨割讓台澎還包括遼東半島但是因為呢當年俄國"},{"start":22179.929,"end":22188.779,"text":"德國這個法國他們因為要享有原來的租界地所以他們不讓步因此蜻蜓又增加了3000萬兩白銀給這個日本"},{"start":22192.145,"end":22213.994,"text":"那至于其他的条款我就不提因此今天如果是俄罗斯跟乌克兰要谈到重新的停战协定以及签和平条约的话他要回到明斯克二号条款一共十三条我建议外交部的同仁呢在这个明斯克条款里面去了解一下他的细节"},{"start":22214.915,"end":22237.279,"text":"因為所有東西你是回到上一次不管這條約接受或是撕毀可是它的precondition條件論就是你現在要回復談判的一個要求所以這個就是民視客的13條我想這個做一個參考"},{"start":22239.568,"end":22252.346,"text":"那因為川普總統就任以來他在第一任這一年的任期內一定會向國會提出他的國家安全戰略報告那麼有國家安全戰略下面美國的國防部有國防"},{"start":22254.806,"end":22268.966,"text":"在国防战略下他有他的军事战略那么还有他的印太战略还有他各种情报战略因此他是四个面向比方讲他的军事实力要被变他的外交立场要做预防"},{"start":22269.727,"end":22290.81,"text":"他对市场经济南海要追求最重要的一条是美国现在专注法规专利他们很会修法保护所以这四个批实际上是国家安全战略里面一个共同的支撑那么因为我们现在希望我们的执政跟政府在这个任期内提出我们的一个国家安全战略"},{"start":22291.471,"end":22311.856,"text":"那用這個戰略的架構讓我們的各個部會除了在政策上面從上到下有明確的政策指導在水平的協調上跨部會因為對應每一個不同的情境各部會他的分工跟承擔的責任並非按比例那這個點我提醒大家注意"},{"start":22314.281,"end":22339.014,"text":"那前两天美国国会的特别助理团就是国会的对中共的这个小组团也访问也到这个我们立法院来访问那他们也关切到这个问题所以说你看这边不管是美国的国务院美国的这个国防部美国的CIA还有国会都有一个对中共政策研究小组可是他们的资讯是分享的所以你可以看这个"},{"start":22342.199,"end":22369.212,"text":"川普就任以後啊他會定定他的核心目標國家利益實力元素戰略要素兵力規模甚至在區域性啊他的解決方案他承擔多少責任要付多少錢這個錢有可能是要現在的友好國家共同分攤的所以他的這個戰略指導啊從上到下明確他的實力呢從下到上要做支撐那這個給我們一個參考的一個構想"},{"start":22373.622,"end":22396.775,"text":"比照美国作为我们的一个学习的经验,国家安全战略,国防战略,军事战略,以及各地区的作战的战略,它是有重叠性的,也就是说有明确的指导。因为目前我们政府并没有官方版的国家安全战略,虽然我们公布了一个四年期国防总检讨,但是美国在2017年就把它取消掉了。"},{"start":22397.694,"end":22413.107,"text":"那因為就是因為從上到下跟下到上的支撐不能同調所以他就改成兩年一版的國防戰略因此我們在國防法內將來可以提出這個跨黨協商來修改這個國防法的要求因為我們只有 QDR"},{"start":22413.867,"end":22429.632,"text":"雖然是四年期總檢討但是是前瞻我們並沒有回顧我這個四年跟過去四年就上一個版本中間有哪些落差或是哪些還力有所未待的那我們要努力來做那麼接著我們政府在今年又要出版國防戰略這個"},{"start":22434.997,"end":22455.862,"text":"QD从上一个版本的48页进步到现在的63页内容增加了一些那么原来国防战略跟军事战略是一页半现在成长到四页我们也肯定但是跟邻近国家比内容还不足我们希望在国防报告书白皮书出来以后能够看得到有所精进"},{"start":22456.601,"end":22471.875,"text":"那麼因為國家安全的各個領域,包括社會堅韌、太和和平、民心安定、經濟繁榮、軍事堅強,這裡面不同的面向,因為有不同的直接督導的長官,"},{"start":22474.113,"end":22501.069,"text":"有总统的有院长的有外交国防的有陆委的有海委的有国安会的那现在总统成立了三个特别委员会我们是肯定这三个课点委员会虽然的跨部会的协商还有民间有一些专业人士参与可是专业人士参与他提出的建言或建议要反映到不会去变成就说他并不是以"},{"start":22502.054,"end":22520.259,"text":"成比例的這個分工單則而是這些要做的事要並到下一年的國防預算裡面他才能夠付錢雖然現在誠意很高但是現在呢目前只是做出建言那我們用這個來顯示一個為什麼需要一個結構性的支撐"},{"start":22523.659,"end":22547.947,"text":"現在我們都在講人工智慧的基礎國內已經廣泛在運用政府機構在用但是顯然這個運用的方法還不能夠短期達標就是有關於我們的所謂的關鍵基礎設施跟全社會韌性它這個互動關係並不是只是排列它的順序哪一個優先哪個第二因此我們在這邊你可以看出來"},{"start":22551.761,"end":22576.38,"text":"利用人工智慧根据我们的关键因素排出了不同的互动关系这个互动关系是根据当前我们根据国际情势国内社会的韧性如何强化要投资什么时间可以达成所以它是一个互动的关联性这边看得到最关键性的东西就是电网"},{"start":22577.541,"end":22590.857,"text":"電力分配網路設施資安能源的進口那社會結構還有呢醫療體系另外就是金融體系我們千萬不能因為"},{"start":22592.435,"end":22615.94,"text":"因為遭到斷電或是海纜斷電外匯存底不能運用金融這個會受極大的影響因此在這個結構圖上我們可以提供這個院內同仁做個參考這個是他不只是看到表象的第一層他甚至向下還可以延伸到第三層那這種情況下可以加快我們的韌性結構的強度的這個推展"},{"start":22620.441,"end":22646.025,"text":"这张图是从川普总统第45任到拜登总统46任到现在他回来第47任美国作为一个强权影响整个市局它可以运用的所谓的地缘战略地缘政治地缘经济它的组合运用它这里面在这个虚线圈圈里面涵盖了20个选项"},{"start":22647.722,"end":22673.113,"text":"那至于他把你排出15个肮脏国这个他认为贸易不均等那是他的方法那至于他的手段呢这里面就产生了一个施压作为的不定性一个反复无常那对美国来讲他看到利可是必能可能是周遭国家承担因此我们要有我们的方法论去面对这个而不是说等他出招我们做反应虽然我们现在"},{"start":22673.593,"end":22702.39,"text":"在您这边召集的会议下880亿后面会有很多深入的看法但是只是对于关税但是对于外汇存底美债啦汇率啦黄金储存啦这个我们内部啊当然跨部会要有一个更深入的这个协商那这个这是一个方法论啊就是我们来解看啊川普总统他的目的是美国利益优先"},{"start":22703.732,"end":22732.825,"text":"美国再次伟大那他的方法是什么呢他采用了新霸权主义新重商手艺新孤立主义以及新工业主义目的方法他还有的手段他的手段非常厉害双重标准两手策略左右换力内外折中因此对于这个外面四个轴向我们再去看我们对事情判断通常有八个不同的面向就是主观的"},{"start":22734.11,"end":22759.043,"text":"客觀的宏觀的圍乾的樂觀的悲觀的前瞻的反思的對這個不同的面向組合再去參考中國大陸的聚焦跟美國的聚焦我們在中間選擇什麼樣的選項這裡面沒有最佳方案只是一個除錯方案提供你選項中間哪些不理想的你可以把它太除那雖然這個"},{"start":22760.68,"end":22787.643,"text":"这很多是结合了西方的兵学思想跟我们的孙子兵法这个概念上八种组合八种不同的面向就64个种甚至再有交错组合我们甚至可以产生512个选项但不是选项来支持你哪个好而是在选项过程中把不确定因素对我们不利的先太除就说犯错的机会比较少那这个方法论是未来我想提供我们的智库"},{"start":22788.223,"end":22805.705,"text":"或者是学员单位做成一个政策建言提供我们政府做一个参考那这个呢就是这一次美中竞合外交部用的字是竞合是讲美国有竞争跟合作"},{"start":22807.066,"end":22824.811,"text":"這competition corporation叫做competition但是也可能是美中鍛煉脫鉤結構那這種情況下他選了這五個國家比方講包括這個英國澳洲印度日本韓國這五個國家如何在中間博弈他的這個"},{"start":22826.107,"end":22848.717,"text":"理論啊那這是一種方法論我覺得我們智庫可以做那同樣這五個國家他們自己彼此之間私下怎麼協商因為他們有的還是參與一帶一路所以中國大陸也在帶風向所以這個情況下我們對自己的角色定位以及調節的空間有多少我覺得要有一點方法論而不是用單面的論述那這個"},{"start":22853.321,"end":22869.042,"text":"我也是提供贵院以及我们政府部门希望参考,我们需要一个国家安全战略,里面产生国内环境的影响,还有国际环境的冲突,左右各列了12项。"},{"start":22870.305,"end":22896.095,"text":"那他的目的呢是最後能夠做風險評估對於聚焦在兩岸情勢外交政策國防政策經濟政策能源政策資安政策人口政策社會的韌性做一個客觀的分析最後產生的國家安全戰略是什麼呢是促進繁榮社會和諧維護主權保護民主和平必戰強化安全這個是我們國家安全戰略的目標那根據這個"},{"start":22898.629,"end":22920.745,"text":"赖总统的17条啊我们发现这17条里面他也不是同样的百分比例聚焦在哪一点上那我们看到这点当然我们还有未来这个努力这个精进的空间就是一直强调国家安全战略不只是从上到下垂直的政策指导还有一个就是"},{"start":22921.485,"end":22942.407,"text":"水平的跨部會的協商承擔不同的任務責任但是並不是相同的百分比那這個有一個戰略的框架指導會對我們未來施政上有更好的幫助那這個最後一張圖啊我們可以看到這個美國開啟了全球貿易制裁與中共這個"},{"start":22944.113,"end":22960.09,"text":"嘴巴上乐意是讲进河了那会不会锻炼脱钩目前还看不出来我觉得永远他保留一个手法就是说他有一个妥协折中他的底线但他不会明讲那我们的外交经贸战略的因应呢我们用"},{"start":22961.151,"end":22978.903,"text":"這個例子就是台積電這次我們看出來了他完全反映出把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略串結成一個一個整體那在這個裡面的供應鏈裡面是相互供應鏈如果在這個時候把台積電的功能去掉"},{"start":22979.81,"end":23003.44,"text":"那人人都是输家所以我相信我们坚持台积电在国内的持续发展在国外投资但是因为互为供应链就是相互依托谁都不能少谁所以看得到这个地缘经济他考虑的人口位置贸易源头产业链路地缘战略军事布局威泽赫祖维护利益"},{"start":23004.614,"end":23014.208,"text":"地緣政治這個講白了就是我們講了就是說國家的利益優先合縱連橫第二個我們看到這些大國強權他一定是雙標雙軌"},{"start":23019.051,"end":23037.724,"text":"这个没有说是从头到尾一贯一致的因此在这种情况下我们需要有一个国家安全战略我们的战略目标是牵动邻国的利益营造区域的平衡巩固贸易源头强化产业的链路多元确保多元生存的缝隙"},{"start":23038.524,"end":23046.709,"text":"那這樣子有利於我們的外交部局精進軍事能量運用以小牽大虛實聯動正齊相生的合縱連橫"},{"start":23048.154,"end":23074.494,"text":"那最后一个我们常常讲我们跟很多友好国家是同路人但是我是查了一些别的资料同路未必同道同道不同德同德不同心同心不同人同人不同调好朋友里面的分寸捏拿中间也不见得是完全是coherent同调的我想今天的问证以上的题目请院长做一个参考"},{"start":23075.454,"end":23098.002,"text":"我們站在質詢的過程中間也是代表人民監督在同樣另一個角色上其實是互動學習我看到台沙過去我們很多的工作同仁只是因為今天角色換過來了我站在這邊也可以想到當年我站在對面的時候也被質詢過所以我們講這是互動學習我特別請院長給我們一些指教"},{"start":23099.249,"end":23127.526,"text":"非常感謝委員每次聆聽委員的高見我真的是獲益良多更深深感受委員在準備這麼豐富 詳盡而且是非常難得的資料當中的用心尤其你剛剛在對17項總統在國安高層會議的對照裡面關於人口對策人工智慧 醫療 交通 金融體系沒有在17項當中那我們會也許之前 之後都會在其他來彌補"},{"start":23128.647,"end":23151.87,"text":"我想這個就是國家整個一體那這段時間我們也做了多項的城市韌性以及全社會韌性的相關演習我們從演習跟演練當中期待能夠再發現一些不足之處可以做更有效率的來補充那麼尤其是委員一直強調國家安全策戰略"},{"start":23152.561,"end":23167.301,"text":"國家的確需要一個安全的戰略那這個安全戰略委員當然是非常的專業那我你我應該共同認知到這個安全戰略是在憲法架構下以總統統帥權為主衍生到各部會"},{"start":23168.022,"end":23182.799,"text":"我們從資訊的收集到最後面的執行面都是在做憲法的架構總統的統帥前這樣完整底下去做的安全架構這個倒是非常感謝委員能夠這樣來提醒那麼我一再也強調說我們在跟"},{"start":23185.762,"end":23202.273,"text":"美國在這一次的關稅爭議的談判當中我們一直以國內的產業支持為優先出發再來就是我們從過去到現在備妥了方案希望能夠緊迫的最佳時間跟美方進行談判談判的過程"},{"start":23203.482,"end":23220.183,"text":"在以爭取國家最大最大的利益維護產業國際競爭力讓國人能夠安心三項原則來進行那跟委員報告這個工作到目前進行我們仍然是在最優先行列的國家當中我們已經在4月11號"},{"start":23221.164,"end":23249.618,"text":"有第一次的視訊會議現在雙方就視訊會議的內容再做更多的詳實精進希望期待最近的時間內很快的有一個更好的這個共通來處理雙方經貿產生的問題然而在這個國際經貿局勢大變的時候台灣應該有累積到國家的能量跟各國尤其包括跟美國我們採取更公平穩定的貿易關係這絕對有利於我們未來在"},{"start":23250.168,"end":23276.697,"text":"科技產業供應鏈上領先地位的繼續的發揮所以以上這幾項都是總統在歷次會議當中明確的指示行政院也現在將17項的因應措施後續的一些立法修法計工程計劃還有設施計劃的一個整體結構都已經在著手進行適當的時機我們就會拿出來討論我也始終認為台灣不能有戰後英雄"},{"start":23277.725,"end":23297.551,"text":"台灣要有一個能夠帶領台灣走向和平的一個國家領導人我想賴總統也是秉持這樣的自我的責任感所以他才提出說我們對國防安全我們國防預算能夠在我們財政合宜的許可之下以基於我們自己國防之所需對於設備的興構"},{"start":23299.178,"end":23320.444,"text":"我們可以達到GDP3%這樣的目標那麼今年我們嘗試要往這個目標來邁進當然這個是國家整體的財政結構的問題所以在多項的委員提到的過程當中總統也在日前有一個講話那麼我再替他來做一些說明從過去的西進"},{"start":23321.445,"end":23348.691,"text":"到南向到東拓其實現在我們講究的是北和希望能夠有同步的發生同步建立好的關係我們當然我們會有除錯的選擇但是我們認為全世界四海之內都可以成為兄弟所以我們現在立足台灣到佈局全球到行銷全世界我們只是在中間加了一個加強美國這是為產業而做的希望產業不要因為關稅問題喪失了自己的國際競爭力"},{"start":23351.297,"end":23374.947,"text":"或者就國內的市場也變成這個物價開始上漲起來所以加強美國到美國投資到美國採購這都是政府的政策在這同時我們除了希望雙邊能夠基於共同利益得到一個對關稅的合理協議之外未來我們也也會顧慮到是否有中國的貨品低價反傾向台灣造成我們國內各項的問題以及經過台灣違規轉運到國"},{"start":23379.522,"end":23402.423,"text":"美國到世界各地去讓我們在國際貿易的信任度上被打折這個也是目前我們在做的我相信這個在您提出的包括經濟 軍事 外交三方面要來就國家安全的考量這個方向跟現在政府的走向是一樣的容許未來有更多的機會向委員再來一一的請教在這幾個當中關於我們的"},{"start":23402.816,"end":23412.941,"text":"全體性的 全國性的甚至全球性的戰略思考跟戰略的構成我們希望跟委員我再能夠有機會再向委員來請教"},{"start":23414.376,"end":23438.026,"text":"最後我再跟您提出一個建議就是當國防預算在增加的過程中不只是向美方採購重要的軍事裝備或者是國內培養我們國防產業的基礎另外一個就是人才的培養我們軍事教育的經費要增加特別謝謝謝謝謝謝委員我們大家共同努力謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長下一位"},{"start":23444.522,"end":23454.445,"text":"林郡縣委員之質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報下一位請徐巧欣委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席那我們有請這個卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":23484.006,"end":23492.41,"text":"其實呢昨天國人最關心的議題呢就是這個護照的問題我想要先請教一下在2024年的時候我們規劃印製的2025年的護照是規劃印製多少本所以你也不清楚嗎那我直接講 請說"},{"start":23507.096,"end":23528.411,"text":"我們根據歷年來的印製護照量我們去年確實是規劃印製180萬本所以去年預計規劃是180萬本然後你們其實護照過去都是不夠的時候會有加印而且常常會比如說現在不夠了那就再加印再加印"},{"start":23529.051,"end":23552.621,"text":"這個沒有錯嘛昨天林佳龍部長也有說所以確實我們在去年的時候規劃的是180萬本而不是後來追加的209萬本好那再來呢根據2024年的估算值呢其實跟林佳龍部長說的只能印185萬本差不多不是嗎所以209萬這個數字是在什麼時候才增加出來的"},{"start":23553.137,"end":23557.923,"text":"好 報告委員 先講2024的時候我們總共印製了285萬本那209萬本是根據今年1月到4月總共 180萬吧 前面對 現在180萬本嘛 209萬本是什麼時候決定"},{"start":23572.501,"end":23594.258,"text":"根據需要我們一定要因為要節省工廠我們不能一下印太多那什麼時候決定改成從180改成209萬本你具體告訴我的時候最近不是因為1到4月我們的使用的護照大概用了70幾萬本那根據這個1到4月70萬本我們預估今年會使用到209萬本所以這件事情跟商運算有什麼關係啊"},{"start":23595.506,"end":23617.621,"text":"本來你就是可以印185萬本然後呢實際上面你的預算可以印180萬本只差5萬本而已你在4月的時候增加變成要加印到209萬本那也是事後的事情了不是嗎那也是在所謂的預算之後所發生的事情不是嗎你剛剛的時序講得非常的清楚就是如此啊"},{"start":23618.041,"end":23628.255,"text":"好那再来呢如果说过去好我要问下一个问题了过去2023年的这个护照护照的编列预算2023年2023年那可以印几本2023年"},{"start":23634.739,"end":23656.13,"text":"2023年我們本來原來編列了6億多可以印130多萬本但是後來因為那個不足因為COVID-19的關係所以後來有很高的需求量對不對對因為那個COVID-19結束之後那個需求突然暴增所以原本預計印幾本後來印了幾本後來印製348萬本本來預計印幾本"},{"start":23662.711,"end":23674.04,"text":"本來預計136萬本所以從136萬本變成348萬本那中間那個數字呢是用什麼樣的方式支出的照你們來說預算不夠啊沒有錢啊對"},{"start":23677.075,"end":23693.359,"text":"應該是後來有追加預算去把它印出來追加預算我們本來應該在裡面的業務費印出來院長你隔壁的市場說是用追加預算的方式你們確定嗎就是我們裡面的業務費有公主的費用是嗎我們看一下來"},{"start":23700.438,"end":23724.536,"text":"你們是用第二日備金做支出啊剛剛都在跟我胡扯亂講一通啊一百一十二年度動用了第二日備金的九億兩千四百五十萬一千元來支應所以我的意思是說如果你們四月的時候你的估值需要加印一百八十萬的本本的部分不夠的話你當然可以像之前一樣動用第二日備金有錯嗎院長"},{"start":23726.297,"end":23750.813,"text":"第二預備金的使用有它法定的原因跟項目當然 可是問題是 院長剛才他所說囉他說原本我們今年度的預算是要編180萬本是4月的時候才追加到需要209萬本所以本來就不含在預算裡面的話那請問是不是如果你要加印是動用第二預備金就像是當時疫情過後那個樣子"},{"start":23752.113,"end":23779.328,"text":"你有剛剛有聽到說嗎是四月的時候才認為有加印的需求在去年年度編列預算的時候是認為說呢只需要180萬本而已跟最後的185萬本相差不多所以額外新增在四月新增的部分是不是動用預備金可以做呢為什麼不做跟委員報告第二預備金使用有它的法定的條件原因那如果這個預算"},{"start":23780.689,"end":23790.751,"text":"上次用的這個預算是用到沒有錯如果他裡面自己的業務費用足夠我們看業務費用如果足夠的話可以使用對不對來我問一下去年113年我們編列我們招標了180萬的晶片護照是花了多少錢來次長"},{"start":23808.107,"end":23822.979,"text":"七點就是去年我們編了多少180萬本的晶片護照去絕標出去嗎我這邊看到是去年我們總共印了285萬本不是啦我問的今年我們花了我們印了180萬本的絕標這個部分是多少錢9億9千萬"},{"start":23831.427,"end":23858.794,"text":"是7億3嘛因為9億是你整個總預算編列的金額但是你們當初4月絕標的時候180萬本的部分是7億3我意思是說你們如果連我問這麼清楚的數字都搞不清楚的話國人這麼關心這個議題你要大家怎麼去信任你們呢好然後再來去年預算書我們今年的預算書我們對護照的印製編列金額是多少你剛剛已經講了就是9.9億嘛對不對"},{"start":23860.234,"end":23885.699,"text":"好 那一般事務費統三百分之十之後在這個項目裡面還有多少能夠使用的請問 院長你剛剛問一般業務費在這個項目裡面還有多少錢可以用一般業務費被統三百分之十之後這個外交部還有多少的金額可以來就是這個護照的部分嘛剛剛你算啊 我們來算數學嘛剛剛講說我們有編了9.9億沒有錯吧"},{"start":23889.607,"end":23894.508,"text":"對 編了9.9億之後是廢統310%之後剩下多少8.9億吧對 蘇玄沒有錯吧8.9億之後扣掉了7.3億的180萬本護照之後剩下多少1億多好 1.58億嘛一本護照的平均成本是多少400多嘛所以除下來你還有39萬本可以印耶"},{"start":23918.587,"end":23931.017,"text":"你們自己根本數學都沒有算清楚所以在那邊胡講一些東西讓大家都覺得說哎呀是因為什麼預算的問題不是是因為你們數學根本不好的問題喔在接下來我要問下一個問題了關稅談判那個"},{"start":23934.319,"end":23956.246,"text":"你先回答一下我剛剛所提示的這些部分好不好就到底為什麼外交部會告訴我們是這個樣子我剛剛數學我們回到上一張數學因算給大家看了到底為什麼明明有39萬本可以印然後我們告訴大家說我們是不夠的我一再強調很多預算預算本身被刪的部分或是沒有刪或許燙不足以"},{"start":23958.786,"end":23980.843,"text":"影響這個本項預算但是業務費刪掉之後其他很多人我問的就是晶片護照的部分而已嘛我今天只針對晶片護照你從過去的本來規劃的180萬本到4月多了這個變成209萬本你不去使用二倍金你4月才多出來你不去使用二倍金就算了你還想用一般業務費"},{"start":23981.744,"end":23982.504,"text":"預算也許沒有影響到 但是"},{"start":24005.151,"end":24018.154,"text":"很多的業務費被刪掉之後要來做這項工作的業務費甚至包括人事費用都被刪減了我給你看啦還有39萬本的扣打是可以印的嘛你還有1.58億耶你的統三之後還有那我問你嘛是不是還有1.58億來 有或沒有"},{"start":24026.082,"end":24038.922,"text":"外交部在執行發包的時候他們非常的節儉非常的用心把它縮下來了所以過去180萬本的這個部分在今年4月有做決標嘛決標之後才新增了要變成209萬本嘛"},{"start":24040.925,"end":24052.609,"text":"但是209萬本的這個數字即使在今年你們在錯估的時候他們當時編沒有編那麼多本現在要增加之後你還是有多出1.58億的業務費可以印39萬本的護照"},{"start":24056.54,"end":24078.708,"text":"為什麼不做呢所以好了兩個結論一你可以用業務費來使用對不對二有39萬本報告委員我們並沒有不做我現在講說現在預算正好我們沒有說你不做我是說你們說有缺啊你們是說10月份就印不出來啦但是我算給你看並不是這樣嘛所以兩個管道第一業務費還有剩餘1.58億"},{"start":24080.589,"end":24101.606,"text":"第二 如果真的不夠的話法定的第二預備金過去你們就是這樣做的接下來我要問關稅談判的問題我們呢 延了這個90天所以我們也希望政府能夠一切談判順利但是我想要問一下我們現在目前有沒有在做具體的影響評估報告給民眾跟產業 院長我們跟產業界舉行了"},{"start":24106.514,"end":24123.389,"text":"民眾民眾我知道產業界有舉行一般的民眾我們提供了190線的專線電話專線電話讓我們自己打進去就對了那另外支持這個產業的880億你會不會覺得過於保守我們是衡量事情發生之後各種"},{"start":24124.346,"end":24128.789,"text":"第一推估 剛高推估到來提高的推估所算出來的現在產業界也認為在某些個項目上應該要開始我認為應該要提高而且我會支持那再來呢 我要問說那既然你們說都有評估嘛還有專線可以打電話進去嘛那我想問喔 因為"},{"start":24141.599,"end":24166.184,"text":"三十多趴雖然他現在延九十天可是他們其實規定裡面有一個基礎的基本的百分之十那仍然會對每一個國家都造成攻擊包括中華民國那我請問一下說你們有評估那在基礎關稅十趴的狀況下我是台北市的立委我想要請教主要會受到影響的產業大概你們分析評估有哪一些"},{"start":24167.042,"end":24182.076,"text":"大的產業還是在我們在台北市的產業要往美國的大宗物品當中電子通訊業這個為主就是包括它的顯示卡制服器等等這個才是影響最大的其他有關係的就是未來我們進行"},{"start":24183.304,"end":24199.054,"text":"排除非關稅貿易障礙的農產品農產品的部分我列為很重要的談判的內容那這樣子的一個10%的衝擊就你們的評估占台北市的營業額百分之多少你們有評估過嗎針對各縣市的評估"},{"start":24201.271,"end":24216.58,"text":"我手上是沒有針對各縣市評估的沒有針對各縣市去評估只有全國性沒有各縣市因為每一個縣市他產業發展不一樣他所會在10%或32%的關稅衝擊上也完全不一樣所以您今天告訴我的是沒有針對區域去做評估只有全國去做評估"},{"start":24220.422,"end":24226.41,"text":"不同產業可是每一個縣市的他的產業別跟他的產業比例跟他的產業人數都不一樣啊如果你只做全國性的跟產業別的沒有針對縣市的話我認為是不夠的院長你不覺得嗎那我們會在這個談判到最後"},{"start":24236.784,"end":24242.628,"text":"最終要定案之前如果它是一個絕境的數字我告訴您 實際上我已經去算了針對台北市總計營業額會影響5%左右影響到的業者大概有2800多家還有年營收會影響到台北市的9200億元這個是在10%的金儲關稅之下所算出來的數字"},{"start":24260.6,"end":24276.787,"text":"所以我希望我們在評估的時候不要只針對產業別然後全國性的評估也應該針對每一個縣市去做評估這樣子會更精確的在後期談判的時候能夠更精確的做出決定好嗎 院長這個部分應該可以吧"},{"start":24277.647,"end":24296.474,"text":"各縣市不同的狀況對呀 各縣市不同的狀況好像不是那麼急迫但是我會要求我們做這樣的評估這最基本都要有的嘛全國性的 產業性的 然後區域性的不都應該分成三個階層嗎現在變成我們國家台北 台中 高雄各種不同的衝擊這個放到未來談判桌來談的機會應該是不大"},{"start":24300.997,"end":24313.57,"text":"因為你不是剛剛有講專線嗎那我是台北市的市民我要問說那對台北市的影響有多大的時候那請問電話客服人員要怎麼回答我啊他根本沒有相關的數據嘛你是什麼樣的產業那你目前訂單有沒有什麼削減那我們要來問下一個問題"},{"start":24320.376,"end":24339.582,"text":"針對台灣跟美國之間的關稅談判我們可以看到日本首相他是非常強硬的表態包含他說過守護日本的農業然後美債不宜當關稅盤盤標的日本人的軍費日本人自己決定匯率要按照公平原則安全貿易不應該一起討論我想請問一下"},{"start":24342.183,"end":24356.513,"text":"日本他很具體的向美國說明他們的要求跟底線我想問一下關於關稅貿易壁壘的問題如果美國要求不得標示非基因改造食品行政院這裡會同意嗎"},{"start":24357.332,"end":24385.524,"text":"我們這次談判的原則也是爭取國家最大利益維持產業國際競爭力所以有可能會同意排除這個關稅貿易障礙的這個議題裡面有非常多項我剛剛就只問你基因改造食品工業的項目當中我們可以合理討論工業的部分在雙方接觸底下四個標示美豬牛的產地這個部分我們會堅守嗎這個原則第一個國人的健康最優先所以剛剛講兩個你們都會堅守嗎"},{"start":24394.073,"end":24415.238,"text":"好,謝謝許委員,謝謝卓院長。抱歉,現在在議場二樓的貴賓席的是我們來自美國國會助理訪問團的好朋友們,我們在這邊歡迎他們。Let's welcome the US Congressional Staff Delegation in our house."},{"start":24415.238,"end":24415.678,"text":"Thank 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209萬本是什麼時候決定"},{"start":116.085,"end":137.915,"text":"根據需要我們一定要因為我要節省工廠我們不能一下印太多那什麼時候決定改成從一百八改成兩百零九萬本你具體告訴我的時候最近不是因為一到四月我們的使用的護照大概用了七十幾萬本那根據這個一到四月七十萬本我們預估今年會使用到兩百零九萬本所以這件事情跟商運算有什麼關係啊"},{"start":139.09,"end":161.204,"text":"本來你就是可以印185萬本然後呢實際上面你的預算可以印180萬本只差5萬本而已你在4月的時候增加變成要加印到209萬本那也是事後的事情了不是嗎那也是在所謂的預算之後所發生的事情不是嗎你剛剛的時序講得非常的清楚就是如此啊"},{"start":161.604,"end":171.836,"text":"好那再来呢如果说过去好我要问下一个问题了过去2023年的这个护照护照的编列预算2023年2023年那可以印几本2023年"},{"start":178.323,"end":201.632,"text":"2023年我們本來原來編列了6億多可以印130多萬本但是後來因為那個不足因為COVID-19的關係所以後來有很高的需求量對不對對因為那個COVID-19結束之後那個需求突然暴增所以原本預計印幾本後來印了幾本後來印製348萬本本來預計印幾本"},{"start":206.294,"end":217.623,"text":"本來預計136萬本所以從136萬本變成348萬本那中間那個數字呢是用什麼樣的方式支出的照我們來說預算不夠啊沒有錢啊對"},{"start":220.659,"end":238.046,"text":"應該是後來有追加預算去把它印出來追加預算?我們本來應該在裡面的業務費印出來院長,你隔壁的市場說是用追加預算的方式你們確定嗎?追加就是我們裡面的業務費有公主的費用是嗎?我們看一下"},{"start":244.022,"end":268.123,"text":"你們是用第二日備金做支出啊剛剛都在跟我胡扯亂講一通啊一百一十二年度動用了第二日備金的九億兩千四百五十萬一千元來支應所以我的意思是說如果你們四月的時候你的估值需要加印一百八十萬的本本的部分不夠的話你當然可以像之前一樣動用第二日備金有錯嗎院長"},{"start":269.881,"end":294.394,"text":"第二預備金的使用有它法定的原因跟項目當然 可是問題是 院長剛才他所說囉 他說原本我們今年度的預算是要編180萬本是4月的時候才追加到需要209萬本所以本來就不含在預算裡面的話那請問是不是如果你要加印 是動用第二預備金就像是當時疫情過後那個樣子"},{"start":295.694,"end":322.914,"text":"你有剛剛有聽到說嗎是四月的時候才認為有加印的需求在去年年度編列預算的時候是認為說呢只需要一百八十萬本而已跟最後的一百八十五萬本相差不多所以額外新增在四月新增的部分是不是動用預備金可以做呢為什麼不做跟委員報告第二預備金使用有他的法定的條件原因那如果這個預算"},{"start":324.275,"end":334.324,"text":"上次用的這個預算是用到是業務費用沒有錯如果他裡面自己的業務費用足夠我們看業務費用如果足夠的話可以使用對不對來我問一下去年113年我們編列我們招標了180萬的晶片護照是花了多少錢來次長"},{"start":352.995,"end":366.964,"text":"去年我們編了多少?180萬本的晶片護照去絕標出去嗎?我這邊看到是去年我們總共印了285萬本不是啦,我問的今年我們花了我們印了180萬本的絕標,這個部分是多少錢?9億9千萬"},{"start":375.013,"end":402.396,"text":"是7億3嘛因為9億是你整個總預算編列的金額但是你們當初4月絕標的時候180萬本的部分是7億3我意思是說你們如果連我問這麼清楚的數字都搞不清楚的話國人這麼關心這個議題你要大家怎麼去信任你們呢好然後再來去年預算書我們今年的預算書我們對護照的印製編列金額是多少你剛剛已經講了就是9.9億嘛對不對"},{"start":403.797,"end":427.762,"text":"好 那一般事務費統三百分之十之後在這個項目裡面還有多少能夠使用的請問 院長你剛剛問一般業務費在這個項目裡面還有多少錢可以用一般業務費被統三百分之十之後這個外交部還有多少的金額可以是這個護照的部分嘛剛剛你算啊 我們來算數學嘛剛剛講說我們有編了9.9億沒有錯吧"},{"start":433.751,"end":445.974,"text":"對 編了9.9億之後 事務費統三百分之十之後 剩下多少8.9億吧 蘇玄沒有錯吧 8.9億之後扣掉了7.3億的180萬本護照之後 剩下多少1億多好 1.58億嘛 一本護照的平均成本是多少400多嘛 所以除下來你還有39萬本可以印耶"},{"start":462.173,"end":474.443,"text":"你們自己根本數學都沒有算清楚所以在那邊胡講一些東西讓大家都覺得說哎呀是因為什麼預算的問題不是是因為你們數學根本不好的問題喔在接下來我要問下一個問題了關稅談判那個"},{"start":477.725,"end":479.426,"text":"我一再強調很多預算預算本身被刪的部分或是沒有刪"},{"start":500.879,"end":504.223,"text":"我問的就是晶片護照的部分而已嘛我今天只針對晶片護照你從過去本來規劃的180萬本"},{"start":515.899,"end":541.828,"text":"四月多了這個變成209萬本你不去使用二倍金你四月才多出來你不去使用二倍金就算了你還想用一般業務費一般業務費我算給你看還可以額外有39萬本的餘額你不用告訴我們說你印不出十月就印不出護照了這不是沒有邏輯的一個事情嗎你不要跟我去扯其他的部分我現在只有問國人昨天點閱率最高最關心的護照"},{"start":544.373,"end":566.179,"text":"39萬本為什麼不印預算也許沒有影響到但是很多的業務費被刪掉之後要來做這項工作的業務費甚至包括人事費用都被刪減了我給你看啦還有39萬本的扣打是可以印的嗎你還有1.58億耶你的統商之後還有那我問你嘛是不是還有1.58億來 有或沒有"},{"start":569.665,"end":575.608,"text":"外交部在執行發包的時候他們非常的節儉非常的用心把它縮下來了所以過去180萬本的這個部分在今年4月有做決標嘛決標之後才新增了要變成209萬本嘛"},{"start":584.511,"end":596.207,"text":"但是209萬本的這個數字即使在今年你們在錯估的時候他們當時編沒有編那麼多本現在要增加之後你還是有多出1.58億的業務費可以印39萬本的護照"},{"start":599.671,"end":622.276,"text":"那為什麼不做呢所以好了兩個結論第一你可以用業務費來使用對不對第二有39萬本報告委員我們並沒有不做我現在講說現在預算正好是我們沒有說你不做我是說你們說有缺啊你們是說10月份就印不出來啦但是我算給你看並不是這樣嘛所以兩個管道第一業務費還有剩餘1.58億"},{"start":624.156,"end":644.832,"text":"第二 如果真的不夠的話法定的第二預備金過去你們就是這樣做的接下來我要問關稅談判的問題我們呢 延了這個90天所以我們也希望政府能夠一切談判順利但是我想要問一下我們現在目前有沒有在做具體的影響評估報告給民眾跟產業 院長我們跟產業界舉行了"},{"start":649.64,"end":666.965,"text":"市場 民眾 民眾我知道產業界有舉行 一般的民眾我們提供了190線的專線電話專線電話讓我們自己打進去就對了那另外支持這個產業的880億你會不會覺得過於保守我們是衡量事情發生之後各種"},{"start":667.892,"end":672.377,"text":"第一推估 剛高推估 後來是高的推估所算出來的 現在產業界也認為在某些項目上應該要開始 我認為應該要提高 而且我會支持那再來呢 我要問說 那既然你們說都有評估嘛還有專線可以打電話進去嘛 那我想問喔 因為"},{"start":685.171,"end":709.77,"text":"三十多趴 雖然他現在延九十天可是他們其實規定裡面有一個基礎的基本的百分之十那仍然會對每一個國家都造成攻擊 包括中華民國那我請問一下 你們說你們有評估那在基礎關稅十趴的狀況下 我是台北市的立委我想要請教 主要會受到影響的產業大概你們分析評估有哪一些"},{"start":710.626,"end":726.04,"text":"大的產業還是在我們在台北市的產業要往美國的大宗物品當中電子通訊業這個為主就是包括它的顯示卡制服器等等這個才是影響最大的其他有關係的就是未來我們進行"},{"start":726.887,"end":742.638,"text":"排除非關稅貿易障礙的農產品農產品的部分我列為很重要的談判的內容那這樣子的一個10%的衝擊就你們的評估占台北市的營業額百分之多少你們有評估過嗎針對各縣市的評估"},{"start":744.838,"end":760.144,"text":"我手上是沒有針對各縣市評估的沒有針對各縣市去評估只有全國性沒有各縣市因為每一個縣市他產業發展不一樣他所會在10%或32%的關稅衝擊上也完全不一樣所以您今天告訴我的是沒有針對區域去做評估只有全國去做評估"},{"start":764.006,"end":769.65,"text":"不同產業可是每一個縣市的他的產業別跟他的產業比例跟他的產業人數都不一樣啊如果你只做全國性的跟產業別的沒有針對縣市的話我認為是不夠的院長你不覺得嗎那我們會在這個談判到最終要定案之前如果他是一個"},{"start":782.358,"end":786.219,"text":"我告訴您 實際上我已經去算了針對台北市 總計營業額會影響5%左右影響到的業者大概有2800多家還有年營收會影響到台北市的9200億元這個是在10%的金儲關稅之下所算出來的數字"},{"start":804.184,"end":820.371,"text":"所以我希望我們在評估的時候不要只針對產業別然後全國性的評估也應該針對每一個縣市去做評估這樣子會更精確的在後期談判的時候能夠更精確的做出決定好嗎院長這個部分應該可以吧"},{"start":821.231,"end":839.869,"text":"各縣市不同的狀況 談判桌來講好像不是那麼急迫但是我會要求我們做這樣的評估這最基本都要有的嘛 全國性的 產業性的 然後區域性的不都應該分成三個階層嗎現在變成我們國家台北 台中 高雄各種不同的衝擊這個放到未來談判桌來談的機會應該是不大"},{"start":844.573,"end":857.137,"text":"因為你不是剛剛有講專線嗎那我是台北市的市民我要問說那對台北市的影響有多大的時候那請問電話客服人員要怎麼回答我啊他根本沒有相關的數據嘛你是什麼樣的產業那你目前訂單有沒有什麼削減那我們要來問下一個問題"},{"start":863.96,"end":882.829,"text":"針對台灣跟美國之間的關稅談判我們可以看到日本首相他是非常強硬的表態包含他說過守護日本的農業然後美債不宜當關稅談判標的日本人的軍費日本人自己決定匯率要按照公平原則安全貿易不應該一起討論我想請問一下"},{"start":885.75,"end":900.08,"text":"日本他很具體的向美國說明他們的要求跟底線我想問一下關於關稅貿易壁壘的問題如果美國要求不得標示非基因改造食品行政院這裡會同意嗎"},{"start":900.896,"end":929.511,"text":"我們這次談判的原則也是爭取國家最大利益維持產業國際競爭力所以有可能會同意排除這個關稅貿易障礙的這個議題裡面有非常多項我剛剛就指問你基因改造食品工業的項目當中我們可以合理討論工業的部分在雙方接觸底下四個原則要得標示美豬牛的產地這個部分我們會堅守嗎這個原則第一個國人的健康最優先所以剛剛講兩個你們都會堅守嘛"},{"start":937.662,"end":937.684,"text":"啊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（15時1分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長好。其實昨天國人最關心的議題就是護照的問題，我想要先請教，在2024年規劃印製2025年的護照是規劃印製多少本？"],["卓院長榮泰：請外交部來說明護照的印製。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你也不清楚，我直接講。"],["吳次長志中：報告委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：請說。"],["吳次長志中：根據歷年來印製的護照量，去年確實是規劃印製180萬本。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以去年預計規劃是180萬本，然後你們過去其實護照不夠會加印，而且常常會比如說，現在不夠，就再加印、再加印，這個沒有錯嘛？"],["吳次長志中：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：昨天林佳龍部長也有說，所以確實，在去年規劃的是180萬本，而不是後來追加的209萬本。再來，根據2024年的估算值，其實跟林佳龍部長說的只能印185萬本差不多，不是嗎？所以209萬這個數字是在什麼時候才增加出來的？"],["吳次長志中：報告委員，2024年總共印製285萬本，209萬本是根據今年1月到4月，總共……"],["徐委員巧芯：180萬吧？前面。"],["吳次長志中：對，現在180萬本，剛才也跟委員說明……"],["徐委員巧芯：209萬是什麼時候決定？"],["吳次長志中：根據需要，因為要節省公帑，不能一下印太多。"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼時候決定從180萬改成209萬本，你告訴我？"],["吳次長志中：最近。因為1到4月護照大概使用七十幾萬本，根據1到4月七十幾萬本，預估今年會使用到209萬本。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以這件事情跟刪預算有什麼關係？本來就是可以印185萬本，然後實際上，你的預算可以印180萬本，只差5萬本而已，你在4月的時候增加，變成要加印到209萬本，也是事後的事情，不是嗎？也是在所謂的預算之後所發生的事情，不是嗎？你剛剛的時序講得非常清楚就是如此。"],["吳次長志中：我們本來180萬……"],["徐委員巧芯：我要問下一個問題了。再來，過去2023年編列的護照預算可以印幾本？"],["吳次長志中：2023年本來編列了六億多，可以印一百三十多萬本，但是後來因為不足……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為COVID-19的關係，所以後來有很高的需求量，對不對？"],["吳次長志中：對，因為COVID-19結束之後，需求突然暴增，所以最後……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以原本預計印幾本？後來印了幾本？"],["吳次長志中：後來印製348萬本。"],["徐委員巧芯：本來預計印幾本？"],["吳次長志中：本來預計136萬本。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以從136萬本變成348萬本，那中間的數字是用什麼方式支出的？照理來說預算不夠，沒有錢啊！"],["吳次長志中：對，應該後來有追加預算去印出來。"],["徐委員巧芯：追加預算？"],["吳次長志中：應該是用我們裡面的業務費。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長，你隔壁那個次長說是用追加預算的方式，你們確定是追加預算嗎？"],["吳次長志中：所謂追加預算就是我們裡面的業務費有時候有充足的費用……"],["徐委員巧芯：業務費，是嗎？我們看一下，你們是用第二預備金支出，剛剛跟我胡扯，亂講一通啊！112年度動用了第二預備金的9億2,450萬1,000元來支應，所以如果你們4月的時候估計需要加印，180萬本不夠的話，你當然可以像之前一樣動用第二預備金，院長，有錯嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第二預備金的使用有它法定的原因跟項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，可是問題是院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：這也是……"],["徐委員巧芯：剛才他說原本今年度的預算是要編180萬本，是4月的時候才追加到209萬本，所以本來就不含在預算裡面。請問是不是如果要加印是動用第二預備金，就像當時疫情過後那樣，你剛剛有聽他說嗎？"],["吳次長志中：報告委員，不一定要……"],["徐委員巧芯：是4月的時候才認為有加印的需求，去年年度編列預算的時候認為只需要180萬本而已，跟最後的185萬本相差不多，所以額外在4月新增的部分是不是動用預備金可以做？為什麼不做？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，第二預備金使用有它的法定條件原因。"],["徐委員巧芯：有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果上次用到這個預算是用第二預備金沒有錯，但是如果它裡面自己的業務費用足夠使用，第二預備金更該用在急救、急用的方式……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，業務費用如果足夠的話可以使用，對不對？我問一下次長，去（113）年我們招標了180萬本的晶片護照花了多少錢？"],["吳次長志中：不好意思，我沒有記。"],["徐委員巧芯：去年180萬本的晶片護照是多少錢決標出去？"],["吳次長志中：我這邊看到去年我們總共印了285萬本。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啦！我問的是今年，不好意思。今年我們印了180萬本，決標是多少錢？"],["吳次長志中：9億9,000萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，是7億3,000萬，因為9億9,000萬是整個總預算編列的金額，但是你們當初4月決標的時候，180萬本的部分是7億3,000萬。你們如果連我問這麼清楚的數字都搞不清楚的話，國人這麼關心這個議題，你要大家怎麼去信任你們？","再來，今年的預算書中印製護照的編列金額是多少？你剛剛已經講了，就是9億9,000萬。一般事務費統刪10%之後，在這個項目裡面還有多少能使用？請問院長，你剛剛問一般業務費，在這個項目裡面還有多少錢可以用？"],["卓院長榮泰：一般業務費被統刪10%之後，外交部還有多少的金額可以來……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是這個護照的部分，我們來算數學，剛剛講我們有編了9.9億，沒有錯吧？"],["吳次長志中：對，編了9.9億。"],["徐委員巧芯：編了9.9億之後，事務費統刪10%之後，剩下多少？8.9億，數學沒有錯吧？","8.9億扣掉7.9億的180萬本護照之後，剩下多少？"],["吳次長志中：一億多。"],["徐委員巧芯：1.58億。一本護照的平均成本是多少？四百多，所以除下來還有39萬本可以印。你們自己根本數學都沒有算清楚，在那邊胡講一些東西讓大家都覺得，哎呀！是因為什麼預算的問題，不是！是因為你們數學根本不好的問題。","接下來，我要問下一個問題，關稅談判。院長，你先回答一下我剛剛提示的部分，好不好？為什麼外交部會告訴我們是這樣？數學已經算給大家看了，到底為什麼明明有39萬本可以印，然後告訴大家我們是不夠的？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我一再強調很多預算本身被刪的部分或是沒有刪，或許不足以影響本項預算，但是業務費刪掉之後，其他很多的業務影響到它執行的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的就是晶片護照的部分而已嘛！我今天只針對晶片護照，你從過去本來規劃的180萬本，到4月多了，這個變成209萬本，你4月才多出來，你不去使用二備金就算了，你還想用一般業務費。一般業務費我算給你看，還可以額外有39萬本的餘額，你不用告訴我們說你10月就印不出護照了，這不是沒有邏輯的一個事情嗎？你不要跟我去扯其他的部分，我現在只有問國人昨天點閱率最高、最關心的護照，39萬本為什麼不印？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算也許沒有影響到，但是很多的業務費被刪掉之後，要來做這項工作的業務費，甚至包括人事費用都被刪減了。"],["徐委員巧芯：我給你看了啦！還有39萬本的quota是可以印的。你還有1.58億耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：成本也許在……"],["徐委員巧芯：你的統刪之後還有，那我問你，是不是還有1.58億？有或沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：外交部在執行發包的時候，他們非常節儉、非常用心把它縮下來了。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以過去180本的這個部分在今年4月有決標嘛！決標之後才新增了要變成209萬本。但是209萬本的這個數字，即使今年你們錯估，他們當時沒有編那麼多本，現在要增加之後，你還是有多出1.58億的業務費可以印39萬本護照，那為什麼不做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：外交部我們去年……"],["徐委員巧芯：我有兩個結論，第一，你可以使用業務費，對不對？第二，有39萬本……"],["吳次長志中：報告委員，我們並沒有不做，我現在是講，現在預算可以印……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們沒有說你不做，我是說你們說有缺……"],["吳次長志中：可以印180萬本。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們是說10月份就印不出來了，但是我算給你看並不是這樣。所以兩個管道，第一，業務費還有剩餘1.58億；第二，如果真的不夠的話，法定的第二預備金，過去你們就是這樣做的。","接下來我要問關稅談判的問題，延了90天，所以我們也希望政府能夠一切談判順利。但是我想要問一下，我們現在目前有沒有在做具體的影響評估報告給民眾跟產業？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟產業界舉行了10場……"],["徐委員巧芯：民眾，我知道產業界有舉行，一般的民眾。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們提供了190線的專線電話，讓他能夠……"],["徐委員巧芯：專線電話，讓我們自己打進去就對了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：另外，支持產業的880億你會不會覺得過於保守？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是衡量事情發生之後，以各種低推估、高推估、極高的推估所算出來的。現在產業界也認為在某些項目上應該要增設。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我認為應該要提高，而且我會支持。","再來，既然你們說都有評估，還有專線可以打電話進去，那我想問，32%雖然他現在延90天，可是他們其實規定裡面有一個基礎的、基本的……"],["卓院長榮泰：10%。"],["徐委員巧芯：基本的10%，那仍然會對每一個國家都造成攻擊。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：包括中華民國。你們說你們有評估，在基礎關稅10%的狀況下，我是臺北市的立委，我想要請教，主要會受到影響的產業依你們的分析、評估大概有哪一些？"],["卓院長榮泰：大的產業還是在我們銷往美……"],["徐委員巧芯：在臺北市的產業。"],["卓院長榮泰：銷往美國的大宗物品當中，電子通訊業這個為主，就是包括它的顯示卡、伺服器等等，這個才是影響最大的，其他有關係的就是未來我們進行排除非關稅貿易障礙的農產品，在農產品的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：農產品臺北市沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會列為很重要的談判內容。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然很重要。關於10%的衝擊，就你們評估占臺北市的營業額百分之多少，你們有評估過嗎？針對各縣市的評估。"],["卓院長榮泰：我手上是沒有針對各縣市評估的數字。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有針對各縣市去評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是全國性地來……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們只有全國性、沒有各縣市的。因為每一個縣市的產業發展不一樣，在10%或32%關稅的衝擊上也完全不一樣。所以您今天告訴我的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有針對全國……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有針對區域去做評估……"],["卓院長榮泰：對不同的產業……"],["徐委員巧芯：只有全國去做評估。"],["卓院長榮泰：不同產業的，全國性地……"],["徐委員巧芯：不同產業，可是每一個縣市的產業別跟產業比例……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：跟產業人數都不一樣。如果你只做全國性的跟產業別，沒有針對縣市的話，我認為是不夠的。院長，你不覺得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那我們會在這個談判最終要定案之前，如果它是一個決定的數字，我們會加強……"],["徐委員巧芯：那我告訴您，實際上我已經去算了，針對臺北市，總計營業額會影響5%左右，影響到的業者大概有兩千八百多家，還有年營收會影響到臺北市9,200億元，這個是在10%的基礎關稅之下所算出來的數字。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提供這樣的資訊。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我希望我們在評估的時候，不要只針對產業別，然後全國性地評估，也應該針對每一個縣市去做評估，這樣可以在後期談判的時候更精確地做出決定，好嗎？院長，這個部分應該可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：各縣市不同的狀況到談判桌來講好像不是那麼急迫，但是我會要求我們做這樣的評估。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！這是最基本都要有的嘛！全國性的、產業性的，然後區域性的，不是都應該分成3個階層嗎？現在變成……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們國家臺北、臺中、高雄各種不同的衝擊，這個放到未來談判桌來談的機會應該是不大，我會做這樣的預先處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛不是有講到專線嗎？那我是臺北市的市民，我要問對臺北市的影響有多大的時候，請問電話客服人員要怎麼回答我啊？他根本沒有相關的數據嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會根據你是什麼樣的產業、目前訂單有沒有什麼削減、你那邊有沒有在趕急單……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我要來問下一個問題，針對臺灣跟美國之間的關稅談判，我們可以看到日本首相非常強硬地表態，包含他說過：守護日本的農業、美債不宜當關稅談判的標的、日本人的軍費日本人自己決定、匯率要按照公平原則、安全和貿易不應該一起討論。日本很具體地向美國說明他們的要求和底線，我想請問一下關於關稅貿易壁壘的問題，如果美國要求不得標示非基因改造食品，行政院這裡會同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這次談判的原則也是爭取國家最大利益，維持產業國際競爭力……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有可能會同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：至於排除關稅貿易障礙的議題，裡面有非常多項，我們秉持著工業……"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛就只問你基因改造食品嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們秉持著工業項目當中可以合理討論，農業的部分在雙方接觸底下，四個原則……"],["徐委員巧芯：不得標示美豬、牛的產地，這個部分我們會堅守嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：四個原則：第一個，國人的健康為最優先……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以剛剛講的兩個，你們都會堅守嘛！這都是國人……"],["卓院長榮泰：再來，消費市場的習慣要顧慮，另外就是要顧慮到國際的標準跟科學的認證。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝主席。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓貴賓席的是來自美國國會助理訪問團的好朋友們。我們在這邊歡迎他們！Let's welcome the US Congressional Staff Delegation in our House.Thank you！","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。作以下決定：下次會議進行經濟組之質詢。","報告院會，現在繼續處理復議案。本院民進黨黨團針對第7次會議報告事項第四案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143701_00012"}}},{"id":"160442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfcb33c81b5f4f3f6380f43183fcb97a75b01fba8380de05328b61d8df1607beeffd30bbe266b48c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"14:30:56 - 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家一个是靠路上交通线那么台湾是海上交通线情况状况都不一样这个俄乌战争打到今天已经1152天了"},{"start":118.632,"end":134.233,"text":"实际上在战争开始的头六个月,乌克兰的难民跑到欧洲国家已经超过1100万人,三年的战争下来虽然有几百万回去,目前还有600万人。"},{"start":135.174,"end":160.643,"text":"在散播在欧洲各地那这种情况啊对台湾面对未来的两岸如果有一个冲突的挑战我们除了要照顾国人的安全另外一个就是我们在台湾的有很多的外籍的居民不只是从事事业投资教学也有我们很多友好邦交的这个labor force啊"},{"start":161.303,"end":189.136,"text":"那這個加起來我想外交部也了解將近90萬人那這種情況下要掌握一個預應時間讓友好國家跟我們有很好的溝通管道在兩岸情勢升級緊張到某種程度的情況下我們跟這些友好的國家要分擔責任我們要照顧我們的國民也要照顧其他國家在台灣工作的同仁那這邊你可以看到"},{"start":190.489,"end":219.784,"text":"乌克兰跟台湾的面积比例是16.7比1那人口比例是1.9 4300万4300万对2300万但是密度比是1比8.7就说台湾人口密度非常高如果起冲突了我们除了希望能够产生嚇阻避免战争但是如果发生了就说中共犯台的情况下我们要保护我们的国土"},{"start":221.324,"end":246.523,"text":"這個城鎮戰跟烏克蘭的狀況是不一樣的那另外一個值得我們關注的就是人均耗電比我們面積這麼小可是我們的耗電是烏克蘭的3.4倍那這個情況下讓我們知道就是說這個電力的供應跟電力的傳輸是我們的關鍵技術設施的第一優先的考量"},{"start":248.976,"end":273.532,"text":"所以我们需要有一个所谓的共同图像这个图像是可以跨部会使用当我们谈乌克兰的时候我们了解台湾的大小也可以看到乌冬的战场目前这个面积已经可以含括两个台湾了所以它这个范例并不是适合拿台湾来比较说今天的乌克兰就是明日的台湾因为这个案例不同"},{"start":274.272,"end":293.285,"text":"那烏東的戰場因為有美國的星鏈的技術所以它前線的士兵戰士跟家人通訊手機可以通在烏東的地區它都是靠星鏈提供通訊那麼因為我們在台灣的岸上的固定站台或者是Wi-Fi"},{"start":293.945,"end":313.144,"text":"如果暂时冲突中断的话虽然我们跟湾外博弈星公司签约但是通讯频道的数量以及频宽还是有限的这个部分我们希望将来这个地方持续努力也要加强我们的韧性所以乌克兰的战场虽然看到了许多的无人机运用"},{"start":314.305,"end":324.169,"text":"幾千架上萬架的使用這種消耗型的無人機是因為有starlink提供鏈路才可以使用但這個case在台灣並不會"},{"start":326.567,"end":355.232,"text":"具有這種同樣的功能因此我們政府未來如果跟Starlink要做溝通因為馬斯克是說他要百分之百掌握權那我們政府當初是希望五十五十我想在這個溝通過程中間如果川普政府還是支持區域安全重視亞太和平我覺得這是一個溝通的管道那麼除了現有的英國的One Web以外我們還要強化其他的鏈路那這個就是我們的社會韌性"},{"start":356.252,"end":373.99,"text":"那至於在加薩走廊的站場給我們一個慘痛的教訓也就是說當你失去電力供應失去了醫藥 失去了食水 失去了糧食這種情況下就是社會結構的脆弱性就抽出來了這張圖表顯示是從2022年的2月24號"},{"start":380.114,"end":402.646,"text":"俄国开始侵略乌克兰或进犯乌克兰在两个月之内俄国乌克兰美国欧盟甚至联合国他的重大措施政策事势都显示在这里面但是我们发现在其中啊就是在头两个月中间有三次可以"},{"start":403.885,"end":419.637,"text":"就是說停火協議但是都沒有達成目標當然每個國家他的政治目標跟他的軍事手段有不同的搭配方法可是如果以當時的現象來看今天如果達成停火協議當時是"},{"start":423.936,"end":445.915,"text":"俄罗斯希望顿内斯克 卢干斯克两个自治州变成独立国但是今天变成四个州被占领了加上克里米亚就五个地区如果当时能够具有魄力就讲不加入北约加入欧盟大家支持那乌冬的战场如果做一个很客观的严肃讨论"},{"start":446.876,"end":454.502,"text":"這三年的仗除了一個世代的年輕人的教育人口社會設施全部毀掉以外"},{"start":456.385,"end":483.285,"text":"戰爭的兩方沒有一個是贏家所以我們希望能夠掌握這種狀況看到關鍵的節點的時候要提供重要的分析因素因此這個方法論實際上是結合了這個所謂人工智慧的資料庫所以我們每一個戰場的情境我們都可以回溯將來檢討在哪個關鍵節點當時我們錯失了機會但是別人付出的教訓我們不要付第二次的學費"},{"start":485.25,"end":512.663,"text":"那這個是當時4月21號4月24號的一個模擬情境的戰場情形你可以看到在這個上面的這個動態顯示實際上從4月份以後整個戰場就沒有擴大縮小除了去年9月的這個烏東他打了一塊小地方克爾斯克但現在俄國又幾乎拿回去了所以現在的談判"},{"start":513.916,"end":534.508,"text":"可能要回到当年2015年2月15号这个明斯克二号条款可是呢因为双方在这13条里面都有背负了没有恪守这个条款的职责当然最后是俄罗斯撕毁条款那回过头来我们来想"},{"start":535.558,"end":553.42,"text":"当年这个二战胜利我们光复台湾是因为马关条约在1895年的4月17号当时签订马关条约并不是单独割让台澎还包括辽东半岛但是因为呢当年俄国"},{"start":554.332,"end":563.18,"text":"德國這個法國他們因為要享有原來的租界地所以他們不讓步因此蜻蜓又增加了3000萬兩白銀給這個日本"},{"start":566.727,"end":588.396,"text":"至于其他的条款我就不提因此今天如果是俄罗斯跟乌克兰要谈到重新的停战协定以及签和平条约的话他要回到明斯克二号条款一共十三条我建议外交部的同仁在这个明斯克条款里面去了解一下他的细节"},{"start":589.315,"end":611.665,"text":"因為所有東西你是回到上一次不管這條約接受或是撕毀可是它的precondition條件論就是你現在要回復談判的一個要求所以這個就是民視客的13條我想這個做一個參考"},{"start":613.971,"end":626.748,"text":"那因為川普總統就任以來他在第一任這一年的任期內一定會向國會提出他的國家安全戰略報告那麼有國家安全戰略下面美國的國防部有國防"},{"start":629.209,"end":643.369,"text":"在国防战略下他有他的军事战略那么还有他的印太战略还有他各种情报战略因此他是四个面向比方讲他的军事实力要被变他的外交立场要做预防"},{"start":644.13,"end":665.213,"text":"他对市场经济南海要追求最重要的一条是美国现在专注法规专利他们很会修法保护所以这四个批实际上是国家安全战略里面一个共同的支撑那么因为我们现在希望我们的执政跟政府在这个任期内提出我们的一个国家安全战略"},{"start":665.874,"end":686.259,"text":"那用這個戰略的架構讓我們的各個部會除了在政策上面從上到下有明確的政策指導在水平的協調上跨部會因為對應每一個不同的情境各部會他的分工跟承擔的責任並非按比例那這個點我提醒大家注意"},{"start":688.683,"end":713.414,"text":"那前两天美国国会的特别助理团就是国会的对中共的这个小组团也访问也到这个我们立法院来访问那他们也关切到这个问题所以说你看这边不管是美国的国务院美国的这个国防部美国的CIA还有国会都有一个对中共政策研究小组可是他们的资讯是分享的所以你可以看这个"},{"start":716.601,"end":743.969,"text":"川普就任以后他会定定他的核心目标国家利益实力元素战略要素兵力规模甚至在区域性他的解决方案他承担多少责任要付多少钱这个钱有可能是要现在的友好国家共同分担的所以他的这个战略指导从上到下明确他的实力从下到上要做支撑那这个给我们一个参考的一个构想"},{"start":748.025,"end":771.178,"text":"比照美国作为我们的一个学习的经验,国家安全战略,国防战略,军事战略,以及各地区的作战的战略,它是有重叠性的,也就是说有明确的指导。因为目前我们政府并没有官方版的国家安全战略,虽然我们公布了一个四年期国防总检讨,但是美国在2017年就把它取消掉了。"},{"start":772.096,"end":787.518,"text":"那因為就是因為從上到下跟下到上的支撐不能同調所以他就改成兩年一版的國防戰略因此我們在國防法內將來可以提出這個跨黨協商來修改這個國防法的要求因為我們只有QDR"},{"start":788.118,"end":808.554,"text":"虽然是四年期总检讨但是是前瞻我们并没有回顾我这个四年跟过去四年就上一个版本中间有哪些落差或是哪些还力有所未带的那我们要努力来做那么接着我们政府在今年又要出版国防战略那这个"},{"start":809.383,"end":830.276,"text":"QD从上一个版本的48页进步到现在的63页内容增加了一些那么原来国防战略跟军事战略是一页半现在成长到四页我们也肯定但是跟邻近国家比内容还不足我们希望在国防报告书白皮书出来以后能够看得到有所精进"},{"start":831.004,"end":846.284,"text":"那麼因為國家安全的各個領域,包括社會堅韌、太和和平、民心安定、經濟繁榮、軍事堅強,這裡面不同的面向,因為有不同的直接督導的長官,"},{"start":848.496,"end":875.463,"text":"有总统的有院长的有外交国防的有陆委的有海委的有国安会的那现在总统成立了三个特别委员会我们是肯定这三个课点委员会虽然的跨部会的协商还有民间有一些专业人士参与可是专业人士参与他提出的建言或建议要反映到不会去变成就说他并不是以"},{"start":876.457,"end":894.682,"text":"成比例的這個分工單則而是這些要做的事要並到下一年的國防預算裡面他才能夠付錢雖然現在誠意很高但是現在呢目前只是做出建言那我們用這個來顯示一個為什麼需要一個結構性的支撐"},{"start":897.918,"end":922.447,"text":"现在我们都在讲人工智慧的基础国内已经广泛在运用政府机构在用但是显然这个运用的方法还不能够短期达标就是有关于我们的所谓的关键基础设施跟全社会任性它这个互动关系并不是只是排列它的顺序哪一个优先哪个第二因此我们在这边你可以看出来"},{"start":926.004,"end":950.783,"text":"他利用人工智慧根据我们的关键因素排出了不同的互动关系那这个互动关系呢是根据当前我们根据国际情势国内社会的韧性如何强化要投资什么时间可以达成所以它是一个互动的关联性这边看得到啊最关键性的东西啊就是电网"},{"start":951.94,"end":965.257,"text":"電力分配網路設施資安能源的進口那社會結構還有呢醫療體系另外就是金融體系我們千萬不能因為"},{"start":966.837,"end":990.359,"text":"因為遭到斷電或是海纜斷電外匯存底不能運用金融這個會受極大的影響因此在這個結構圖上我們可以提供這個院內同仁做個參考這個是他不只是看到表象的第一層他甚至向下還可以延伸到第三層那這種情況下可以加快我們的韌性結構的強度的這個推展"},{"start":994.844,"end":1020.428,"text":"这张图是从川普总统第45任到拜登总统46任到现在他回来第47任美国作为一个强权影响整个市局它可以运用的所谓的地缘战略地缘政治地缘经济它的组合运用它这里面在这个虚线圈圈里面涵盖了20个选项"},{"start":1022.142,"end":1047.544,"text":"那至于他把你排出15个肮脏国这个他认为贸易不均等那是他的方法那至于他的手段呢这里面就产生了一个施压作为的不定性一个反复无常那对美国来讲他看到利可是必能可能是周遭国家承担因此我们要有我们的方法论去面对这个而不是说等他出招我们做反应虽然我们现在"},{"start":1047.984,"end":1063.949,"text":"在您這邊召集的會議下880億後面會有很多深入的看法但是只是對於關稅但是對於外匯存底美債啦匯率啦黃金儲存啦這個我們內部啊當然跨部會要有一個更深入的這個協商那這個這是一個方法論啊就是我們來解看啊川普總統他的目的是美國利益優先"},{"start":1078.154,"end":1107.225,"text":"美国再次伟大那他的方法是什么呢他采用了新霸权主义新重商手艺新孤立主义以及新工业主义目的方法他还有的手段他的手段非常厉害双重标准两手策略左右换力内外折中因此对于这个外面四个轴向我们再去看我们对事情判断通常有八个不同的面向就是主观的"},{"start":1108.513,"end":1134.272,"text":"客观的宏观的为干的乐观的悲观的前瞻的反思的对这个不同的面向组合再去参考中国大陆的聚焦跟美国的聚焦我们在中间选择什么样的选项这里面啊没有最佳方案只是一个除错方案提供你选项中间哪些不理想的你可以把它太除那虽然这个"},{"start":1135.083,"end":1162.029,"text":"这很多是结合了西方的兵学思想跟我们的孙子兵法这个概念上八种组合八种不同的面向就64个种甚至再有交错组合我们甚至可以产生512个选项但不是选项来支持你哪个好而是在选项过程中把不确定因素对我们不利的先太除就说犯错的机会比较少那这个方法论是未来我想提供我们的智库"},{"start":1162.629,"end":1180.103,"text":"或者是学员单位做成一个政策建言提供我们政府做一个参考那这个呢就是这一次美中竞合外交部用的字是竞合是讲美国有竞争跟合作"},{"start":1181.469,"end":1199.252,"text":"這competition corporation叫做competition但是也可能是美中鍛煉脫鉤結構那這種情況下他選了這五個國家比方講包括這個英國澳洲印度日本韓國這五個國家如何在中間博弈他的這個"},{"start":1200.529,"end":1223.114,"text":"理論啊那這是一種方法論我覺得我們智庫可以做那同樣這五個國家他們自己彼此之間私下怎麼協商因為他們有的還是參與一帶一路所以中國大陸也在帶風向所以這個情況下我們對自己的角色定位以及調節的空間有多少我覺得要有一點方法論而不是用單面的論述那這個"},{"start":1227.723,"end":1243.441,"text":"我也是提供贵院以及我们政府部门希望参考我们需要一个国家安全战略那么里面产生国内环境的影响还有国际环境的冲突左右各列了12项"},{"start":1244.707,"end":1271.103,"text":"那他的目的呢是最后能够做风险评估对于聚焦在两岸情势外交政策国防政策经济政策能源政策治安政策人口政策社会的韧性做一个客观的分析最后产生的国家安全战略是什么呢是促进繁荣社会和谐维护主权保护民主和平避战强化安全这个是我们国家安全战略的目标那根据这个"},{"start":1273.571,"end":1293.329,"text":"賴總統的17條我們發現這17條裡面它也不是同樣的百分比例聚焦在哪一點上那我們看到這點當然我們還有未來努力精進的空間就是一直強調國家安全戰略不只是從上到下垂直的政策指導"},{"start":1294.33,"end":1316.807,"text":"還有一個就是水平的跨部會的協商承擔不同的任務責任但是並不是相同的百分比那這個有一個戰略的框架指導會對我們未來施政上有更好的幫助那這個最後一張圖啊我們可以看到這個美國開啟了全球貿易制裁與中共這個"},{"start":1318.496,"end":1334.493,"text":"嘴巴上乐意是讲进河了那会不会锻炼脱钩目前还看不出来我觉得永远他保留一个手法就是说他有一个妥协折中他的底线但他不会明讲那我们的外交经贸战略的因应呢我们用"},{"start":1335.554,"end":1353.306,"text":"這個例子就是台積電這次我們看出來了它完全反映出把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略串結成一個整體那在這個裡面的供應鏈裡面是相互供應鏈如果在這個時候把台積電的功能去掉"},{"start":1354.212,"end":1377.823,"text":"那人人都是输家所以我相信我们坚持台积电在国内的持续发展在国外投资但是因为互为供应链就是相互依托谁都不能少谁所以看得到这个地缘经济他考虑的人口位置贸易源头产业链路地缘战略军事布局威泽赫祖维护利益"},{"start":1379.017,"end":1390.73,"text":"地缘政治这个讲白了就是我们讲了就是说国家的利益优先合众连横第二个我们看到这些大国强权他一定是双标双轨"},{"start":1393.451,"end":1412.126,"text":"这个没有说是从头到尾一贯一致的因此在这种情况下我们需要有一个国家安全战略我们的战略目标是牵动邻国的利益营造区域的平衡巩固贸易源头强化产业的链路多元确保多元生存的缝隙"},{"start":1412.927,"end":1421.669,"text":"那这样子有利于我们的外交部局精进军事能量运用以小牵大虚实联动正齐相生的合纵连横"},{"start":1422.557,"end":1448.897,"text":"那最后一个我们常常讲我们跟很多友好国家是同路人但是我是查了一些别的资料同路未必同道同道不同德同德不同心同心不同人同人不同调好朋友里面的分寸捏拿中间也不见得是完全是coherent同调的我想今天的问证以上的题目请院长做一个参考"},{"start":1449.857,"end":1472.404,"text":"我們站在質詢的過程中間也是代表人民監督在同樣另一個角色上其實是互動學習我看到台沙過去我們很多的工作同仁只是因為今天角色換過來了我站在這邊也可以想到當年我站在對面的時候也被質詢過所以我們講這是互動學習我特別請院長給我們一些指教"},{"start":1473.649,"end":1497.743,"text":"非常感謝委員每次聆聽委員的高見我真的是獲益良多更深深感受委員在準備這麼豐富、詳盡而且是非常難得的資料當中的用心尤其你剛剛對17項總統在國安高層會議的對照裡面關於人口對策、人工智慧、醫療、交通、金融體系沒有在17項當中"},{"start":1499.924,"end":1526.258,"text":"也許之前之後都會在其他來彌補我想這個就是國家整個一體那過這段時間我們也做了多項的城市韌性以及全社會韌性的相關演習我們從演習跟演練當中期待能夠再發現一些不足之處可以做更有效率的來補充那麼尤其是委員一直強調國家安全策戰略"},{"start":1526.958,"end":1551.409,"text":"國家的確需要一個安全的戰略那這個安全戰略委員當然是非常的專業那你我應該共同認知到這個安全戰略是在憲法架構下以總統統帥權為主衍生到各部會我們從資訊的收集到最後面的執行面都是在憲法的架構總統的統帥權這樣完整底下去做的安全架構"},{"start":1552.629,"end":1576.677,"text":"這個倒是非常感謝委員能夠這樣來提醒那麼我一再也強調說我們在跟美國在這一次的關稅爭議的談判當中我們一直以國內的產業支持為優先出發再來就是我們從過去到現在備妥了方案希望能夠緊迫的最佳時間跟美方進行談判談判的過程"},{"start":1577.884,"end":1594.579,"text":"在以爭取國家最大最大的利益維護產業國際競爭力讓國人能夠安心三項原則來進行那跟委員報告這個工作到目前進行我們仍然是在最優先行列的國家當中我們已經在4月11號"},{"start":1595.58,"end":1620.976,"text":"有第一次的視訊會議現在雙方就視訊會議的內容再做更多的詳實精進希望期待最近的時間內很快的有一個更好的這個共通來處理雙方經貿產生的問題然而在這個國際經貿局勢大變的時候台灣應該有累積到國家的能量跟各國尤其包括跟美國我們採取更公平穩定的貿易關係這絕對有利於我們未來在"},{"start":1624.571,"end":1651.105,"text":"科技產業供應鏈上領先地位的繼續的發揮所以以上這幾項都是總統在歷次會議當中明確的指示行政院也現在將17項的因應措施後續的一些立法修法工程計畫還有設施計畫的一個整體結構都已經在著手進行適當的時機我們就會拿出來討論我也始終認為台灣不能有戰後英雄"},{"start":1652.128,"end":1658.663,"text":"台灣要有一個能夠帶領台灣走向和平的一個國家領導人我想賴總統也是秉持這樣的"},{"start":1659.914,"end":1684.027,"text":"这样的自我的责任感所以他才提出说我们对国防安全我们国防预算能够在我们财政合一的许可之下以基于我们自己国防之所需对于设备的新购我们可以达到GDP3%这样的目标那么今年我们尝试要往这个目标来迈进当然这个是国家整体的财政结构的问题"},{"start":1684.608,"end":1712.512,"text":"所以在多項的委員提到的過程當中總統也在日前有一個講話那麼我再替他來做一些說明從過去的西進到南向到東拓其實現在我們講究的是北和希望能夠有同步的發生同步建立好的關係當然我們會有除錯的選擇但是我們認為全世界四載之內都可以成為兄弟所以我們現在立足台灣"},{"start":1714.196,"end":1714.722,"text":"布局全球"},{"start":1715.839,"end":1744.585,"text":"行銷全世界我們只是在中間加了一個加強美國這是為產業而做的希望產業不要因為關稅問題喪失了自己的國際競爭力或者就國內的市場也變成這個物價開始上漲起來所以加強美國到美國投資到美國採購這都是政府的政策在這同時我們除了希望雙邊能夠基於共同利益得到一個對關稅的合理協議之外未來我們也會顧慮到是否有"},{"start":1745.365,"end":1749.174,"text":"中國的貨品低價反傾向台灣造成我們國內各項的問題以及"},{"start":1752.05,"end":1776.797,"text":"經過台灣違規轉運到美國到世界各地去讓我們在國際貿易的信任度上被打折這個也是目前我們在做的我相信這個在您提出的包括經濟軍事外交三方面要來就國家安全的考量這個方向跟現在政府的走向是一樣的容許未來有更多的機會向委員再來一一的請教在這幾個當中關於我們的"},{"start":1777.222,"end":1787.357,"text":"全體性的 全國性的 甚至全球性的戰略思考跟戰略的構成我們希望跟委員 我再能夠有機會再向委員來請教"},{"start":1788.779,"end":1811.423,"text":"最後我再跟您提出一個建議就是當國防預算在增加的過程中不只是向美方採購重要的軍事裝備或者是國內培養我們國防產業的基礎另外一個就是人才的培養我們軍事教育的經費要增加特別謝謝謝謝委員我們大家共同努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（14時31分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：卓院長，你好。從4月2號面對美國川普總統的對等關稅政策跟挑戰，我想全世界的國家都承受了很大的壓力，雖然在4月9號他又宣布延後90天實施，但是90天以後，我們面對的挑戰目前是做預應還是分工，未來有關全球貿易的部分，到底是分裂還是美國所謂的競合，我想國內所有部會首長都在這邊窮盡功夫，大家希望能夠在維護國家利益為前提下找到一個比較好的解套方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員永康：這個議題我先擱置，我先從俄烏戰爭進入今天的質詢，因為川普總統曾說過，他上任後很快就會把俄烏戰爭解決，但是最近他面臨到的挑戰使他有一種想法，甚至說他可以脫手不管了，因此這所產生的問題給了我們一個教訓。","我們可以看到，烏克蘭是一個領土廣大的國家，而臺灣是一個海洋海島國家，烏克蘭是靠陸上交通線，臺灣是靠海上交通線，情況、狀況都不一樣。","俄烏戰爭打到今天已經1,152天了，實際上在戰爭開始的頭6個月，烏克蘭的難民跑到歐洲國家的人數已經超過1,100萬人，3年戰爭下來，雖然有幾百萬人回去，但目前還有600萬人散落在歐洲各地。這種情況對臺灣面對未來兩岸如果有衝突時的挑戰，我們除了要照顧國人的安全，另外一個就是在臺灣有很多的外籍居民，不只是從事事業、投資、教學，也有很多友好邦交的labor force，我想外交部也了解，這個加起來將近90萬人，在這種情況下必須要掌握預應時間，讓友好國家跟我們有很好的溝通管道，在兩岸情勢升級緊張到某種程度的情況下，我們跟這些友好國家要分擔責任，我們要照顧我們的國民，也要照顧其他國家在臺灣工作的同仁。","從螢幕上這張圖可以看到，烏克蘭跟臺灣的面積比例是16.7比1，人口比例是1.9比1，約4,300萬對2,300萬，但是密度比是1比8.7，也就是臺灣人口密度非常高，如果起衝突了，我們是希望能夠產生嚇阻、避免戰爭，但是如果發生了中共犯臺的情況，我們要保護我們國土的城鎮戰，跟烏克蘭的狀況將是不一樣的。另外一個值得我們關注的就是人均耗電比，我們的面積這麼小，可是我們的耗電是烏克蘭的3.4倍，在這個情況下，讓我們知道電力的供應跟電力的傳輸是我們關鍵基礎設施第一優先的考量。所以我們需要有一個所謂的共同圖像，這個圖像是可以跨部會使用的，當我們談烏克蘭的時候，我們了解臺灣的大小，也可以看到烏東戰場目前它的面積已經可以含括兩個臺灣了，所以這個範例並不適合拿來比照今天的烏克蘭就是明天的臺灣，因為這個案例不同。","烏東的戰場因為有美國的星鏈技術，所以前線的士兵、戰士跟家人通訊是手機可以通，在烏東地區都是靠星鏈提供通訊。因為我們臺灣是岸上固定站台或者是wifi，如果戰時衝突導致中斷的話，雖然我們跟OneWeb衛星公司簽了約，但是通訊頻道的數量及頻寬還是有限的，這個部分我們希望將來能持續努力，也要加強我們的韌性。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員永康：所以在烏克蘭戰場雖然看到許多無人機的運用，幾千架、上萬架的使用，這種消耗型的無人機是因為有Starlink提供鏈路所以可以使用，但是這個case在臺灣並不會具有同樣的功能。因此我們政府未來如果要跟Starlink做溝通的話，因為馬斯克是說他要百分之百的掌握權，我們政府當初是希望50、50，在這個溝通過程中，如果川普政府還是支持區域安全、重視亞太和平，我覺得這是一個溝通的管道，除了現有英國的OneWeb以外，我們還要強化其他的鏈路，這個就是我們的社會韌性。","至於加薩走廊戰場給我們一個慘痛教訓，也就是說，當你失去電力供應、失去醫藥、失去了食水及糧食，在這種情況下，社會結構的脆弱性就出來了。","螢幕上這張圖表顯示從2022年2月24號俄國開始侵略烏克蘭或進犯烏克蘭，在2個月之內，俄國、烏克蘭、美國、歐盟，甚至聯合國的重大措施、政策實施都顯示在這裏面，但我們發現戰爭開始的頭2個月中間有3次可以進行停火協議，但是都沒有達成目標，當然每個國家的政治目標跟軍事手段有不同的搭配方法，可是如果以當時的現象來看今天，如果能達成停火協議，當時俄羅斯是希望頓內茨克、盧甘斯克這兩個自治州變成獨立國，但是今天變成4個州被占領了，加上克里米亞就5個地區。如果當時能夠具有魄力，表示不加入北約，加入歐盟，大家支持，那麼以烏東的戰場來說，如果做一個客觀、嚴肅的討論，這3年的仗除了讓一個世代年輕人的教育、人口、社會設施全部毀掉以外，戰爭的兩方沒有一個是贏家。所以我們希望能夠掌握這種狀況，看到關鍵節點的時候，要提供重要的分析因素。這個方法論實際上是結合了所謂人工智慧的資料庫，所以對於每一個戰場的情境我們都可以回溯，將來可以檢討在哪個關鍵節點當時錯失了機會，但是別人付出的教訓，我們不要付第2次學費。","接下來這張是當時4月24號模擬情境的戰場情形，你可以看到上面的動態顯示，實際上從4月份以後整個戰場就沒有擴大縮小，除了去年9月烏東打了一塊小的地方庫斯克，但現在俄國又幾乎拿回去了，所以現在的談判可能要回到2015年2月15號明斯克2號條款，可是因為雙方在這13條裡面都背負了沒有恪守條款的職責，當然最後是俄羅斯撕毀條款。回過頭我們來想，當年二戰勝利，我們光復臺灣是因為1895年4月17號的馬關條約，當時簽訂的馬關條約並不是單獨割讓臺澎，還包括遼東半島，但是因為當年的俄國、德國、法國要享有原來的租借地，他們不讓步，因此清廷又增加了3,000萬兩白銀給日本，至於其他的條款我就不提。因此，今天如果俄羅斯跟烏克蘭要重新談判停戰協定以及簽和平條約的話，他要回到明斯克2號條款一共13條，我建議外交部同仁去了解一下明斯克條款裡面的細節，因為所有的東西是回到上一次，不管這個條約接受或者撕毀，可是它的precondition、它的前提就是現在要回復談判的一個要求。這個就是明斯克條約的13條，我想這個可做為參考。","川普總統就任以來，他在這一年的任期內一定會向國會提出他的國家安全戰略報告，在國家安全戰略下面，美國的國防部有國防戰略，在國防戰略下，還有軍事戰略、印太戰略，還有他的各種情報戰略，因此，他是四個面向，比方講他的軍事實力要備便；他的外交立場要做預防；他對市場經濟要追求藍海策略；最重要的一條是美國現在專注法規專利，他們很會修法保護，所以這四個P實際上是國家安全戰略裡面一個共同的支撐。","我們現在希望執政的政府在這個任期內提出我們的國家安全戰略，透過這個戰略架構讓我們各個部會，除了在政策上從上到下有明確的政策指導，更要注重水平的跨部會協調，因為對應每一個不同的情境，各部會的分工跟承擔的責任並非按比例，這一點我提醒大家要注意。","前兩天美國國會的特別助理團，就是國會對中共的小組團也到我們立法院來訪問，他們也關切到這個問題，所以你可以看到，不管是美國的國務院、美國的國防部、美國的CIA還有國會，都有一個對中共政策的研究小組，可是他們的資訊是分享的。你可以看到川普就任以後，他會訂定他的核心目標、國家利益、實力元素、戰略要素、兵力規模，甚至於區域性的解決方案，他承擔多少責任要付多少錢，這個錢有可能是要現在的友好國家共同分擔的。所以他的戰略指導從上到下明確，他的實力從下到上要做支撐，這個給我們一個參考的構想。","比照美國的作為，我們要學習的一個經驗是，國家安全戰略、國防戰略、軍事戰略以及各地區的作戰戰略是有重疊性的，也就是說有明確的指導。目前我們政府並沒有官方版的國家安全戰略，雖然我們公布了四年期國防總檢討，但是美國在2017年就把它取消掉了，就是因為從上到下跟從下到上的支撐不能同調，所以就改成兩年一版的國防戰略，因此我們在國防法內將來可以提出跨黨協商來修改國防法的要求。","因為我們只有QDR（國防總檢討），雖然是四年期總檢討，但是是前瞻，我們並沒有回顧這個四年跟過去四年（就是上一個版本）中間有哪些落差，或是哪些還力有所未逮，我們要努力來做。接著我們政府在今年又要出版國防戰略，這個QDR從上一個版本的48頁進步到現在的63頁，內容增加了一些，原來國防戰略跟軍事戰略是佔一頁半，現在成長到4頁，我們也肯定，但是跟鄰近國家比，內容還不足，我們希望在這個國防白皮書出來以後能夠看得到有所精進。","國家安全的各個領域，包括社會堅韌、臺海和平、民心安定、經濟繁榮、軍事堅強，這裡面不同的面向有不同的直接督導長官，有總統的、有院長的、有外交國防的、有陸委的、有海委的、有國安會的。現在總統成立了3個特別委員會，我們是肯定這3個特別委員會，雖然是跨部會的協商，還有一些民間專業人士參與，可是專業人士參與所提出的建言或建議要反映到部會去，變成這並不是成比例的分工、擔責，而是這些要做的事要併到下一年的國防預算裡面才能夠付錢，雖然現在誠意很高，但是目前只是做出建言。","我們用這個來顯示一點，為什麼需要一個結構性的支撐？現在我們都在講，人工智慧的基礎國內已經廣泛在運用，政府機構在用，但是顯然這個運用的方法還不能夠短期達標，就是有關於我們所謂的關鍵基礎設施跟全社會韌性的互動關係，並不是只是排列它的順序，哪一個優先、哪個第二，因此我們在這邊可以看出來，這是利用人工智慧、根據我們的關鍵因素排出了不同的互動關係，這個互動關係是根據國際情勢、國內社會的韌性，以及如何強化、要投資、什麼時間可以達成，所以它是一個互動的關聯性。這邊看得到最關鍵性的東西就是電網、電力分配、網路設施、資安、能源的進口、社會結構還有醫療體系，另外就是金融體系，我們千萬不能因為遭到斷電或是海纜斷電，外匯存底不能運用，金融會受極大的影響，因此這個結構圖可以提供院內同仁做個參考，這不只是看到表象的第一層，甚至向下還可以延伸到第三層，這種情況下可以加快我們韌性結構強度的推展。","這張圖是從川普總統第45任到拜登總統46任，到現在他回來的第47任，美國作為一個強權影響整個勢局，他可以運用所謂的地緣戰略、地緣政治、地緣經濟，而他的組合運用在這個虛線圈圈裡面涵蓋了20個選項。至於他排出15個骯髒國、他認為貿易不均等，那是他的方法，至於他的手段，這裡面就產生一個施壓作為的不定性跟反覆無常。對美國來講他看到利，可是弊可能是周遭國家要承擔，因此我們要有我們的方法論去面對這個，而不是等他出招，我們做反應。雖然我們現在在您這邊召集的會議下，對於880億後面會有很多深入的看法，但是只是對於關稅，而對於外匯存底、美債、匯率、黃金儲存，我們內部當然跨部會要有一個更深入的協商。","再來，這是一個方法論，我們來解看，川普總統的目的是美國利益優先、美國再次偉大，那他的方法是什麼呢？他採用了新霸權主義、新重商主義、新孤立主義以及新工業主義，目的、方法還有手段，他的手段非常厲害：雙重標準、兩手策略、左右換利、內外折衷。因此對於這個外面4個軸向，我們再去看，我們對事情判斷通常有8個不同的面向，就是主觀的、客觀的、宏觀的、微觀的、樂觀的、悲觀的、前瞻的、反思的，對這個不同的面向組合再去參考中國大陸的聚焦跟美國的聚焦，我們在中間選擇什麼樣的選項，這裡面沒有最佳方案，只是一個除錯方案，提供你選項中間有哪些是不理想的，你可以把它汰除。雖然這個很多是結合了西方的兵學思想跟我們的孫子兵法，概念上有8種組合、8種不同的面向，就是64種！甚至再有交錯組合，我們甚至可以產生512個選項，但不是選項來支持你哪個好，而是在選項過程中把不確定因素、對我們不利的先汰除，就是說，犯錯的機會比較少，這個方法論是未來我想提供給我們的智庫或者是學研單位做成一個政策建言，提供我們政府做一個參考。","這個就是這次美中競合，外交部用的字是競合，是講美國有競爭跟合作，competition、cooperation叫做coopetition，但是也可能是美中斷鏈脫鉤、解構，這種情況下他選了這5個國家，我剛剛講了，包括英國、澳洲、印度、日本、韓國，這5個國家如何在中間博弈它的理論，這是一種方法論，我覺得我們智庫可以做。同樣這5個國家他們自己彼此之間私下怎麼協商，因為他們有的還是參與一帶一路，所以中國大陸也在帶風向，這個情況下，我們對自己的角色、定位以及調節的空間有多少，我覺得要有一點方法論，而不是用單面的論述。","這個我也是希望提供貴院以及政府部門參考，我們需要一個國家安全戰略，裡面產生國內環境的影響還有國際環境的衝突，左右各列了12項，它的目的是最後能夠做風險評估，對於聚焦在兩岸情勢、外交政策、國防政策、經濟政策、能源政策、資安政策、人口政策、社會的韌性，做一個客觀的分析，最後產生的國家安全戰略是什麼呢？是促進繁榮、社會和諧、維護主權、保護民主、和平避戰、強化安全，這個是我們國家安全戰略的目標。根據賴總統的17條，我們發現這17條裡面也不是同樣的百分比例聚焦在哪一點上，我們看到這點，當然我們未來還有努力精進的空間，就是一直強調國家安全戰略不只是從上到下垂直的政策指導，還有一個就是水平的跨部會協商，承擔不同的任務責任，但是並不是相同的百分比，這個有一個戰略的框架指導，會對我們未來施政上有更好的幫助。","最後這一張圖我們可以看到，美國開啟了全球貿易制裁，與中共嘴巴上樂意是講競合，至於會不會斷鏈脫鉤，目前還看不出來，我覺得他永遠保留一個手法就是他有一個妥協折衷、底線，但他不會明講。那我們的外交經貿戰略因應，我們用這個例子，就是台積電這一次我們看出來了，它完全反映出把地緣經濟、地緣政治、地緣戰略串接成一個整體，在這個裡面的供應鏈是相互供應鏈，如果在這個時候把台積電的功能去掉，人人都是輸家！所以我相信我們堅持台積電在國內的持續發展、在國外投資，但是因為互為供應鏈，就是相互依託，誰都不能少誰。所以看得到地緣經濟考慮的人口位置、貿易源頭、產業鏈路、地緣戰略、軍事布局、威懾嚇阻、維護利益、地緣政治，這個講白了就是我們講的國家利益優先，合縱連橫。第二個，我們看到這些大國強權一定是雙標、雙軌，double standard、dual strategy，這個沒有說是從頭到尾一貫一致的。因此在這種情況下，我們需要有一個國家安全戰略，我們的戰略目標是牽動鄰國的利益、營造區域的平衡、鞏固貿易源頭、強化產業的鏈路、確保多元生存的縫隙，這樣子有利於我們的外交布局，精進軍事能量，運用以小牽大、虛實聯動、奇正相生的合縱連橫。","最後一個，我們常常講我們跟很多友好國家是同路人，但是我查了一些別的資料，同路未必同道，同道不同德，同德不同心，同心不同仁，同仁不同調，好朋友裡面的分寸捏拿之間，也不見得完全是cohering同調的。","我想今天的問政，以上的題目請院長做一個參考，我們在質詢過程中也是代表人民監督，在另一個角色上其實是互動學習，我看到臺上有過去很多的工作同仁，只是因為今天角色換過來了，我站在這邊也可以想到，當年我站在對面的時候也被質詢過，所以我們講這是互動學習，我特別請院長給我們一些指教。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常感謝委員，每次聆聽委員的高見，我真的是獲益良多，更深深感受委員在準備這麼豐富、詳盡而且是非常難得的資料，這當中的用心，尤其您剛剛就總統在國安高層會議的17項對照裡面，關於人口對策、人工智慧、醫療、交通、金融體系沒有在17項當中，也許之後都會在其他來彌補，我想這是國家整個一體。","這段時間，我們也做了多項城市韌性以及全社會韌性的相關演習，我們從演習跟演練當中，期待能夠再發現一些不足之處，可以做更有效率的補充，尤其是委員一直強調國家安全戰略，國家的確需要一個安全的戰略，針對安全戰略，委員當然是非常地專業，你我應該共同認知到，這個安全戰略是在憲法架構下，以總統統帥權為主衍生到各部會，我們從資訊的蒐集到最後的執行面，都是在憲法的架構、總統的統帥權這樣完整底下去做的安全架構，這個倒是非常感謝委員能夠來提醒。","我一再也強調說，我們跟美國在這一次的關稅爭議談判當中，一直以國內的產業支持為優先出發；再來就是我們從過去到現在備妥的方案，希望能夠儘速在最佳時間跟美方進行談判；談判過程再以爭取國家最大的利益、維護產業國際競爭力、讓國人能夠安心三項原則來進行。跟委員報告，這個工作到目前的進行，我們仍然是在最優先行列的國家當中，已經在4月11號有第一次的視訊會議，現在雙方就視訊會議的內容再做更多詳實的精進，期待在最近的時間內，很快地有一個更好的共通來處理雙方經貿產生的問題。","然而在國際經貿局勢大變的時候，臺灣應該累積國家的能量跟各國，尤其包括跟美國，我們採取更公平、穩定的貿易關係，這絕對有利於我們未來在科技產業供應鏈上發揮繼續領先地位。","以上這幾項，都是總統在歷次會議當中明確的指示，行政院現在針對17項因應措施後續的一些立法、修法、工程計畫還有設置計畫的整體結構都已經在著手進行，在適當的時機我們就會拿出來討論。","我也始終認為臺灣不能有戰後英雄，臺灣要有一個能夠帶領臺灣走向和平的國家領導人，我想賴總統也是秉持這樣的自我責任感，所以他提出我們對國防安全、國防預算能夠在財政的許可之下，基於我們自己國防之所需，對於設備的新購我們可以達到GDP 3%的目標，那麼今年我們嘗試要往這個目標來邁進，當然這是國家整體財政結構的問題。","在委員提到的多項過程當中，總統也在日前有講過，我再替他來做一些說明，從過去的西進、到南向、到東拓，其實現在我們講究的是北合，希望能夠同步的發生、同步建立好的關係，當然我們會有除錯的選擇，但是我們認為全世界四海之內都可以成為兄弟，所以現在立足臺灣、到布局全球、到行銷全世界，我們只是在中間加了一個加強美國，這是為產業而做的，希望產業不要因為關稅問題，喪失了自己的國際競爭力，或者就國內市場也變成物價開始上漲起來，所以加強美國、到美國投資、到美國採購，這都是政府的政策。在這同時，我們除了希望雙邊能夠基於共同利益，得到一個對關稅的合理協議之外，未來也會顧慮到是否有中國的貨品低價反傾銷臺灣，造成國內各項的問題，以及經過臺灣違規轉運到美國、到世界各地去，讓我們在國際貿易的信任度上被打折，這也是我們目前在做的。","我相信在您提出的，包括經濟、軍事、外交三方面，就國家安全的考量方向，跟現在政府的走向是一樣的，容許未來有更多的機會再來向委員一一請教，在這幾項當中關於我們全體性、全國性，甚至全球性的戰略思考跟戰略的構成，希望能夠有機會再向委員請教。"],["陳委員永康：最後，我再跟您提出一個建議，當國防預算在增加的過程中，不只是向美方採購重要的軍事裝備，或者是國內培養國防產業的基礎，另外就是人才的培養，軍事教育的經費要增加。"],["卓院長榮泰：都會列進去。"],["陳委員永康：特別謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝院長，大家共同努力，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位林俊憲委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林俊憲書面質詢：","案由：本院委員林俊憲，鑒於國家遭中共滲透情形不容小覷，相關因應機制應有所檢討，爰要求國防部及國家安全局於一個月內，針對下列二議題提出書面報告，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、查近年共諜案遭起訴人數增加，2022年10件、2023年48件、2024年64件，其中去年遭起訴者28人為現役軍人、有15人為退役軍人，分別占比43%、23%，顯見我國軍人遭中國滲透情形嚴重。因此，總統表示將恢復軍事審判制度，以加強軍紀、維護我國國防安全。惟考量我國軍事審判自2013年起限縮於戰時使用，已逾十年未實施，原有軍法人員恐無相關實際審判經驗，《軍事審判法》修正後，前例亦恐無可資參酌，雖承平時期國防部借調軍法官擔任檢察事務官，以維持實務經驗，但一般司法案件仍與軍法案件大相逕庭，人員訓練該如何銜接？","二、此外，若涉及國防機密之案件，依《軍事審判法》第79條規定「辯護人於審判中得檢閱卷宗及證物，並得抄錄或攝影。但於國防機密有關之案件，得限制攝影。」雖本條對國防機密之案件閱卷有所限制，惟仍應加強監督對律師及得以接觸文件者之保密義務，參酌美國律師若涉及國家機密案件，其需先通過聯邦政府機關之安全審查、安全背景調查，並規定其可調閱資料之權限。爰建議軍事審判恢復後，精進相關保密義務之作法，避免再有相關人員遭滲透。","三、除恢復軍審制，因應中共滲透方式多變、觸及人員廣泛，如近日遭揭露之國會助理、政務官隨行人員、總統府維安人員等，更有地方村里長接受落地招待，遊走灰色地帶。查《涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法》僅由各行政機關針對擬任公務人員查核或請法務部辦理特殊查核，另有《國家情報工作人員安全查核辦法》針對國安人員查核，惟前者僅限正面表列之職務，且僅為擬任前查核，對於涉及範圍、查核頻率，更甚者，是否依接觸機密程度區分查核頻率，應有檢討之空間，故國安局身為我國最高安全機構，應協助檢視整體國安機制，確保國家整體安全無虞。","四、爰此，請國防部針對前揭軍審制度修正之人員培訓、防杜洩漏國家機密之作為；國安局針對如何精進政府機關相關人員之安全查核提供建議作為，提出書面報告。"],["主席：下一位請徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":32.834,"end":50.309,"text":"委員好再次恭喜 委員長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成 恪遵國家的法令那就盡忠職守 如為事業願受最嚴厲的處罰"},{"start":52.37,"end":67.258,"text":"我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況"},{"start":68.539,"end":90.462,"text":"那因此在十一條的時候呢在自由地區與大陸地區之間的這個人民關係呢是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的這個內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區那我現在就是要問"},{"start":92.128,"end":120.418,"text":"左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上 國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的"},{"start":120.947,"end":140.193,"text":"好 那是這個名字 那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對 所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對 是這樣的 好的 這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面 他事實上是有一點"},{"start":140.993,"end":166.08,"text":"有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您呢在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定的嗎"},{"start":168.254,"end":194.405,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實 現狀事實是 這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看齁在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你確確答對了齁就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形"},{"start":196.546,"end":216.609,"text":"我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看"},{"start":217.33,"end":239.103,"text":"如果真的要面對到國際間的在對內你是一個法治國家的時候最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的這邊地方的時候我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的審查嗎"},{"start":241.737,"end":267.439,"text":"修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區"},{"start":268.206,"end":291.743,"text":"我們是一個國家一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫它中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好 謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲維憲審查都是可行之照好 那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候"},{"start":293.943,"end":319.67,"text":"因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法認定他是一個定外敵對勢力對不對之後您在後來賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在"},{"start":320.41,"end":344.042,"text":"隔一天喔 3月14號的時候您呢也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯 好 這就是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議 行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議"},{"start":345.293,"end":361.498,"text":"舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好 但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢 它事實上它事實上是總統的諮詢機構"},{"start":364.708,"end":392.947,"text":"總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長 您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛 對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下齁請問一下 你們當 因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下 請問你3月13號這個地方這一天你有提出來"},{"start":394.684,"end":396.925,"text":"行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有進行討論嗎3月13號對 禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大統統說法這個是一個"},{"start":413.41,"end":415.091,"text":"因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力"},{"start":439.83,"end":463.11,"text":"但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯 但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎"},{"start":465.207,"end":480.99,"text":"我等一下說明,你事實上還包括立法院,甚至還有重要的政策決策,根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎?沒有,那是因為你沒有呼應,那是總統講的話沒問題,可是您呼應,您是行政院院長您是最高行政機關,決策機關是在行政院會議,這確定吧?報告委員,總統元旦講話,雙十講話,我們都有回應,都有呼應"},{"start":490.145,"end":515.173,"text":"但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再去往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對"},{"start":520.065,"end":544.573,"text":"總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用"},{"start":545.573,"end":562.786,"text":"這個部分 通通都要 重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個 要經過立法院的決議這種情況好 所以呢 導致賴總統他本身做 宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好 這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後"},{"start":566.389,"end":587.731,"text":"總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了甚至沒有在"},{"start":588.792,"end":608.532,"text":"立法院上都經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對這不是跟哪一個國家締約、構合總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的你行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了"},{"start":609.153,"end":621.03,"text":"所以這個地方要重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要角色立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是"},{"start":623.993,"end":642.771,"text":"少數的治理因為奈清德總統是百分之四十所產生的一個總統另外的部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過剛才立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有百分之四十的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議"},{"start":644.813,"end":663.464,"text":"可是我們2300萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的 實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心 政大選研中心所說出的百分之超過60的人是"},{"start":664.854,"end":690.588,"text":"維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這個情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是"},{"start":691.388,"end":719.467,"text":"中共的國家反分裂法 您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把它分裂出去的話呢會導致 或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個同一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平同一性因為你把它視為進對岸 當作一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試它用非和平的方式去考試施政我覺得你不應該用"},{"start":720.908,"end":741.031,"text":"中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步精兵哪一項不是境外敵對勢力更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的"},{"start":741.271,"end":742.152,"text":"怎麼可能 什麼黨"},{"start":757.532,"end":760.594,"text":"全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓它落實"},{"start":779.293,"end":789.348,"text":"這個是客觀事實舉世公認的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎"},{"start":790.543,"end":815.868,"text":"有威脅 我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅 可是剛剛人家說原因是什麼如果你看到果然內密就是要看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有的他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習"},{"start":817.628,"end":827.836,"text":"我的意思是說我們真的要好好解決尤其是邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦不是等一下 院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶"},{"start":839.565,"end":849.491,"text":"我說過 和平有兩種一種是我們夠強 一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家"},{"start":850.498,"end":856.003,"text":"境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流"},{"start":872.11,"end":884.82,"text":"沒有這樣講 剛才主流是什麼 維持現狀維持現狀 你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流我剛才已經說了 民調呈現是60%是這樣子的您不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的 不是嗎他是另外的 那是我們 他是他的問題我們現在主要 我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊"},{"start":897.227,"end":911.445,"text":"我們就是中華民國主權獨立的國家現在這邊我們回到剛才最重要的 我想要問的是邱主委您作為陸委會的主委 你的主要工作是什麼 任務應該是怎麼樣"},{"start":912.406,"end":935.379,"text":"我想我們仍然持續推動這個對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局"},{"start":948.727,"end":949.147,"text":"好 謝謝時間到了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時38分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：劉委員好，再次恭喜。"],["劉委員書彬：卓院長好。您是在113年5月20號宣誓就職，你在宣誓就職的時候有講到「余誓以至誠，恪遵國家法令，盡忠職守……如違誓言，願受最嚴厲之處罰」。今天我談論的主題涉及兩岸的定位在我國憲法當中的關係，在增修條文的前言當中，目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況。第十一條的規定是自由地區與大陸地區之間的人民關係是由兩岸人民關係條例去約定的，因此，臺灣地區與大陸地區兩岸人民關係條例的內容，同樣在第一條、第二條的部分就定義了臺灣地區跟大陸地區。我現在就是要問卓院長一個問題，根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例，兩岸關係現在的狀況是一國兩區，還是兩國？請問你的答案是？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面的用字來講，當然是兩個地區，自由地區跟大陸地區，但是我們如果對外，在政治上、國際上把自己稱為地區，那是非常不宜的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那這個名字是哪一國呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是中華民國。"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以是中華民國下的大陸地區跟臺灣地區嘛！事實上，這樣的情況之下，您這樣講也沒有錯，我們分對內跟對外，但是我們共同面對的是對面的鄰國，事實上它對待我們是有一點特殊的情況。"],["卓院長榮泰：很特殊，不是有一點。"],["劉委員書彬：是非常特殊，沒錯，的確是特殊的關係。在4月15日的時候，您針對劉世芳部長的言論提到，正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係，這是確定的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，這是現狀事實。"],["劉委員書彬：是，在這樣的情況之下，我們面對到的對岸對我們有相關的需求及要求，剛才您的確答對了，就中華民國下的一國兩區；但因為您剛剛提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國，在對岸聽起來可能就會出現是兩國論的情形，我們要知己知彼、百戰百勝啦！","因此，卓院長因為您剛有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國，在有兩國論疑慮的情況之下，它就會認為您是有準備邁向法理臺獨。繼續往下看，如果真的要面對到國際間的話，對內我們是一個法治國家，所以我認為最重要的可能是要做修憲或者聲請違憲審查，這部分才可能在法制上是合理的，請教您有考慮過這個情況嗎？提出修憲或者是聲請違憲的審查嗎？您有思考過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：修憲的工程浩大，以及以現在國會的結構應該很難，在修憲之後還要修憲公投。"],["劉委員書彬：是，沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是現在在國會的修憲工程應該就不簡單啦！所以我認為我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例，甚至討論憲法的時候，在對內我們用「地區」這個法律用語來談論沒有什麼大問題，但是在對外，我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區，我們自己的國家，一個主權獨立的國家，這個國家叫做中華民國，您要叫他中華民國臺灣，我們也歡迎，都一樣的響亮。"],["劉委員書彬：非常好，謝謝確認這部分。如果法制要確認這個效果的話，其實提出修憲或者做釋憲、違憲審查都是可行之道。","進入下一個議題，這是更嚴重的部分，在3月13日賴總統在國安會會議後的談話提到，依照反滲透法把對岸認定是「境外敵對勢力」，對不對？之後賴總統因應兩岸關係及中共敵對勢力的滲透，也在同樣的時間提出了「賴17條」，而您在隔一天3月14日也呼應了賴總統提出對岸是境外敵對勢力的說法，沒錯，這就是說事實，請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：差異很大。"],["劉委員書彬：差異很大，請說。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們行政院的院會，每週都會固定舉行，而國安會議可能舉行的時間、次數都不會這樣的頻繁，很少正式舉行，現在我們舉行兩次的會議也叫做國安高層會議。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是您剛才忘了說一個重要的，事實上，國安會議是總統的諮詢機構，而行政院作為國家最高的行政機關，最高的決策單位就是行政院會議，是行政院院會，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["劉委員書彬：但是您在同一天的這個情況之下……因為3月14日您呼應了賴總統的境外敵對勢力是中國，請問3月13日這一天的行政院院會針對境外勢力這議題有經過討論嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：3月13日？"],["劉委員書彬：對，禮拜四。"],["卓院長榮泰：在行政院院會？"],["劉委員書彬：對，您們有討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有這個議題啊！"],["劉委員書彬：您們沒有這個議題，為什麼3月14日的時候，您怎麼可以呼應賴總統「中共是境外敵對勢力」的說法，如果沒有經過行政院會議的決議……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在……"],["劉委員書彬：作為最高行政機關的首長，您怎麼可以沒有經過院會討論及決議就提出中共是境外的敵對勢力，您忘記了嗎？這最重要的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在國安高層會議當中總統做的指示裡面，他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力。"],["劉委員書彬：但是它是諮詢會議的性質，請不要忘記了！"],["卓院長榮泰：總統已經親口講出來17項的因應措施。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有錯，但是你要知道你是行政院長，是最高行政機關，還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣子的。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有、沒有、沒有，憲法就是這樣子……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面。"],["劉委員書彬：所以才會引起後面所有相關的問題。我們現在繼續往下看……"],["卓院長榮泰：總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：我等一下說明，根據憲法，事實上還要尊重立法院對政府重大決策的參與權。"],["卓院長榮泰：包括總統雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，那是因為你沒有呼應，國慶是總統講的話，那沒問題，可是您是行政院院長，您是最高行政機關，決策是在行政院會議，這確定吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統元旦講話、雙十講話，我們都有回應、都有呼應。"],["劉委員書彬：但這是重大決策，如果只是一般宣示，那不一樣，因為在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前兩岸關係的部分，但你把中共認為是一個敵對勢力，這個……我們再繼續往下看，特別是在反滲透法第十二條的內容，事實上，只有規定被滲透對象的刑事跟行政處罰，並沒有針對總統如何去界定它是一個境外敵對勢力的決策程序去做規範。更重要的，這是一個重大政策的改變，所以必須經過行政院會議，甚至憲法規範必須尊重對立法院重要決策的參與權，應該要到立法院來做報告的，甚至還要決議的。這個部分根據憲法第六十三條或者立法院職權行使法，通通都要，重要事項的變更要經過立法院的決議。所以賴總統本身宣告對岸為境外敵對勢力的時候，它的過程缺乏合法正當性。好，這個地方……"],["卓院長榮泰：總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後，整合了相關並有很多部會首長參加，大家在那個會議中作成的決議，就是由總統對外來宣示的，包括17項……"],["劉委員書彬：但是你呼應……我現在重點是針對您，您是我國最高的行政首長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也在那個會議中。"],["劉委員書彬：但是行政院會議決策的功能你忘記了、你忽略了……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有。"],["劉委員書彬：甚至重要決策沒有經過立法院，釋字第520號就針對核四的停建……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是跟哪一個國家締約、媾和……"],["劉委員書彬：釋字第520號要經過立法院的……行政院長到立法院做報告之後，立法院決議，後來核四要再重建了，所以這個地方重啟了，這部分你要知道，釋字已經跟你說重要決策立法院要參與，好，這邊你如果不確定，你可以再看釋字第520號的解釋。","另外，更重要的是我要強調少數的治理，因為賴清德總統是得票率40%所產生的總統，現在就境外敵對勢力，行政院帶著大家去走，如果經過立法院程序可能就沒問題，可是現在只有40%的民意，卻帶著大家……因為這是民進黨的黨意啊！我們2,300萬人的命運是由臺灣人自己來決定的，在這個情況之下，如果你沒有經過立法院這樣一個決議，事實上是缺乏這個程序的，是很危險的。更重要的，我們看到政大選研中心所做的臺灣民眾統獨立場趨勢分佈，有超過60%的人是支持維持現狀，或是維持現狀後再看以後怎麼發展，這是公告的事實，你可以看到這樣民意的結果。您知道嗎？在這種情況之下，你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力，會有什麼效果呢？就是會慢慢覺得……我們為了知己知彼、百戰百勝，你可以看到中共的反分裂國家法，您作為一個國家的行政首長，你要知道對岸會有什麼反應？它說如果臺灣從中國分裂出去的話，或者發生將會導致臺灣從中國分裂出去的重大事變，或者和平統一的可能性完全喪失的時候……因為你把對岸視為境外敵對勢力的時候，就會導致它用非和平的方式……"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我覺得你不應該用中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動，事實上，總統也是依據立法院所通過的反滲透法的定義而為！況且中國大陸所作所為，對臺極限施壓，步步進逼，哪一項不是境外敵對勢力？更何況這是符合反滲透法定義的。"],["劉委員書彬：沒錯，但反滲透法是在蔡英文時期訂的，蔡英文執政時，是民進黨占多數一黨訂定的，當初都沒把對方設定為……"],["邱主任委員垂正：法律都是延續性的，怎麼可能什麼黨……"],["劉委員書彬：沒有、沒有，法律是有延續性，但是你的法定程序沒有做完，尤其這是重大事件，蔡英文政府並沒有做這件事，是到了卓院長才做這樣的事！現在立法院的結構就是三黨不過半，而你並沒有根據憲法上的規定來進行……"],["邱主任委員垂正：全世界都知道中共對臺的嚴重威脅，機艦擾臺……"],["劉委員書彬：那你就應該透過法律程序來落實！"],["邱主任委員垂正：這是客觀事實，是舉世公認的對臺威脅！當然，法律是一回事，但這是嚴重的威脅，難道委員沒有感受到嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：針對這個威脅，我等一下就要問陸委會主委。既然有威脅在，那麼原因是什麼？原因是什麼？現在看到果，如果不看前面的因，是無法解決真正問題的，而陸委會跟行政院現在的問題就是這個情況！我現在要跟大家講，正因為有敵對勢力的問題在，本來他們之前就會圍繞、環臺，這個沒有問題，可是現在態勢更清楚，甚至連演習都不說了！我的意思是，我們真的要好好解決這問題，尤其邱主委，你本身是學者出身，我現在要跟大家講的問題就在這裡。院長，你把對岸視為敵對勢力時，情況就會走向緊張及敵意！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過，和平有兩種，一種是我們夠強，一種是我們投降。我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強，強到讓圖我之國家、讓境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們。如果委員……"],["劉委員書彬：夠強也並不需要把對方視為敵對勢力！美國有把中國當作敵對勢力去處理，或是口頭上提到或公告出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親，那絕對不是臺灣的現狀跟主流。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，我沒有這樣講！主流是什麼？維持現狀！維持現狀！你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在中華民國在這裡……"],["劉委員書彬：我剛才已經說了，民調有60%贊成這樣子，所以不要誤導。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來，是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的，不是嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：那是他的問題，我們集中在我們現在的問題就好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊！我們就是中華民國，是主權獨立的國家……"],["劉委員書彬：因為你把敵對勢力放在那裡！我們回到最重要的問題上來，我想問邱主委，您作為陸委會的主委，你的主要工作是什麼？任務是怎麼樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們仍然持續推動對等尊嚴、符合規範、健康有序的交流，哪怕我們推出了17項因應國安的相關策略，我們也是積極努力在維護臺海現狀。現在要改變臺海現狀的是中共當局，他給我們的極限施壓就是來推翻並破壞臺海現狀！"],["劉委員書彬：敵對勢力已經讓對方有藉口危害臺灣，甚至用軍演的方式處理，我認為這才是最主要的原因。我現在想說的是……"],["主席：好，謝謝，時間到。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那就這樣子。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、陸委會的備詢。","報告院會，現在在我們二樓旁聽席是來自德國艾德諾青年政治學校，有來自印度、馬來西亞、蒙古、緬甸、尼泊爾、菲律賓、東帝汶、韓國以及德國所有年輕的政治學家。Welcome！我們掌聲歡迎。","報告院會，我們內政組的質詢已詢答完畢。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，因此我們就不進行臨時提案之處理。","下午2點30分繼續進行外交及國防組之質詢。","現在休息。","休息（11時54分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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那個時候我們都會念保密防諜 人人有責檢舉匪諜 保家衛國小心 匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳 朗朗上口但是我們發現 匪諜一直都在"},{"start":76.827,"end":97.063,"text":"特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢然後從來不檢討中國"},{"start":101.286,"end":122.253,"text":"反而是幫著中國去檢討美國日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林我們的家我們的生命那我在這邊要先提"},{"start":122.993,"end":144.405,"text":"其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至"},{"start":145.265,"end":167.95,"text":"美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣"},{"start":169.298,"end":183.516,"text":"的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過"},{"start":188.081,"end":206.573,"text":"中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地"},{"start":207.313,"end":222.547,"text":"像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地"},{"start":223.649,"end":244.714,"text":"富坤奇他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園 縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可"},{"start":246.494,"end":263.727,"text":"那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員"},{"start":267.642,"end":292.891,"text":"我們以投資而言 如果是用人頭投資的話依我們現行的這些罰則 它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責 還有罰還是一樣的好 謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項 第一款 第二款 對不對要罰投資者 也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委"},{"start":293.351,"end":322.02,"text":"那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那長長,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是路人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長"},{"start":324.653,"end":325.594,"text":"請內政部備選請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算"},{"start":339.522,"end":365.587,"text":"那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記"},{"start":366.707,"end":381.848,"text":"算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以"},{"start":382.428,"end":404.7,"text":"這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了"},{"start":406.081,"end":422.873,"text":"我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦"},{"start":423.493,"end":440.871,"text":"好 如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法 沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效"},{"start":441.872,"end":469.825,"text":"我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何"},{"start":472.796,"end":489.953,"text":"本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於它就是一個禁止的行為除非它有非常大的特例因為它相關的規定裡面它沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定它"},{"start":491.014,"end":518.181,"text":"致死就無效的一個購地行為是的那這個貿民頂替的這個貿民被貿營這個人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利好 謝謝院長喔願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然啊我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方呢經過審查人沒有問題"},{"start":520.061,"end":533.859,"text":"地也不是基民地區呢經過許可的共計有548件列管147件繼續列管401件好不管我現在問說那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地"},{"start":535.037,"end":560.418,"text":"回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧 請袁明慧時間暫停 我也跟你介意好了我們的議員就是三位"},{"start":561.138,"end":564.12,"text":"有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料?"},{"start":583.581,"end":612.68,"text":"院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資"},{"start":613.821,"end":636.27,"text":"那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地"},{"start":636.71,"end":663.659,"text":"那我特別去國防部所知因為加3滴劑只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款"},{"start":666.46,"end":690.896,"text":"所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等"},{"start":691.756,"end":706.445,"text":"如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五封鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬"},{"start":707.505,"end":711.906,"text":"獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者"},{"start":737.434,"end":758.662,"text":"開發者 前客 政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地 文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量"},{"start":759.702,"end":779.757,"text":"到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後呢設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估"},{"start":780.638,"end":807.63,"text":"我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際只用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好 地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢 是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵 有上一屆"},{"start":808.61,"end":835.705,"text":"行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢 最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權、點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押"},{"start":836.745,"end":864.702,"text":"這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到"},{"start":865.242,"end":886.605,"text":"我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成"},{"start":887.606,"end":908.557,"text":"我們的相關部會要求內政部 原民會 陸委會 協同相關部會盤查中資 以人頭戶購買原保地的情形第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例"},{"start":909.437,"end":921.013,"text":"本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員 我們一定支持"},{"start":922.479,"end":942.255,"text":"總之進來購買任何的土地除非它經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃如果能夠增加國安安全"},{"start":952.769,"end":953.634,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員的資訊,謝謝左院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時21分）謝謝院長、主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好。上個月賴總統有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱，說中國是境外敵對勢力，因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力因應這個作法。我在這裡想要先講一下，在六、七十年前，那個時候我們都會唸「保密防諜，人人有責」、「檢舉匪諜，保家衛國」、「小心，匪諜就在你身邊」，大家都耳熟能詳、朗朗上口。但是我們發現匪諜一直都在，特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重，不僅僅滲透到政府機關，也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊，所以在這邊我也很擔心，因為我們在立法院常常看到有很多的委員會拿國臺辦的稿子來質詢，然後從來不檢討中國，反而是幫著中國去檢討美國、日本，我認為這個就是癌細胞，要拔除，要不然會動搖國本。","所以我在這邊要特別關心關於土地的問題，因為對我們原住民來講，土地就是我們的山林、我們的家、我們的生命，我在這邊要先提，其實這些年來，在全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等，都會聽到中資買地的問題，例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島；日本北海道的軍事雷達站附近，大量地被中資買土地。甚至美國總統拜登在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令，因為有一個中國公民買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地，迫使美國總統必須用行政命令要求他售出，為什麼？因為無法可管。我在想如果說臺灣這些機敏設施的周邊土地沒有被中資滲透，我覺得也很難讓人相信。","關於中資買地的問題，其實常常也有人討論，以財訊雜誌來講，它在2014年的時候曾經說過中國到處在全世界買土地、買企業、買個資、買人心，無所不買，可是它在去年出了一本經典重現，它說10年了，問題依然如此。那我自己呢？我們看到在花蓮，因為那邊有很多原住民的土地，像是理想大地的案外案，就被質疑是不是傅崐萁引中資買地？甚至在去年佳山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地，又或者像我們的原保地，傅崐萁讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園的，縣政府想要在那個地方做開發，我們到底有沒有防範的機制？","我們來看兩岸人民關係條例，在第七十三條第一項有說這些大陸地區的人民、法人、團體，如果他們要做投資，是需要主管機關經濟部的許可；如果要買地呢？有，在第六十九條第一項規定要跟主管機關內政部取得許可。我現在先請教陸委會主委，請問中國人士用人頭在臺違法投資，該不該罰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，以投資而言，如果是用人頭投資的話，依現行的這些罰則，他跟當事人一樣，人頭也是要負刑責及罰鍰，這是一樣的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。所以這是在2019年增訂的第九十三條之一第一項第一款及第二款，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要罰投資者，也要罰人頭。我再請教一下主委，中國人士如果用人頭在臺違法買地，該不該罰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：那當然。跟委員報告，對於陸資或是陸人、自然人來買我們的房地產及土地，兩岸條例基本上是許可制，是嚴格許可，都要由……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以沒有罰嘛？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部備詢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教內政部長，如果中資用人頭購買土地，算不算借名登記？"],["劉部長世芳：算。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我們一般都是參考什麼呢？最高法院在99年的一個民事判決，也是目前法律定義的通說，簡單來講，就是我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上，但是我願意讓你來管理，這個叫作「借名登記」。如果按照剛剛的民事判決的定義，請教一下內政部長，中資如果用人頭買地，算不算借名登記？"],["劉部長世芳：算，但是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。請問是有效還是無效？"],["劉部長世芳：無效，因為一個是中國人，一個是臺灣人，所以他是中國人的話，就要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例相關的規定來辦理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，所以這個是你的見解，我們來看一下，民事判決的見解也是這麼說，只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定，它是有效的，但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例，到底它有沒有禁止？在這個地方規定一定要獲得許可，才能夠取得土地。所以問題就來了，我們看這個表格，如果它不是禁止規定，就是表示借名登記有效，也就是說，中國人可以不經許可，就可以人頭購地，但是這個條文到底有什麼意義，大家就去找人頭就好啦！如果它是禁止規定，就是代表借名登記是無效的，但是我們剛才有看到兩岸人民關係條例第六十九條，只有民事上無效，它沒有行政罰、沒有刑罰，所以無論有效、沒有效，我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞。當然我相信大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地。所以我在這邊的第一個訴求就是，既然中國人用人頭投資要罰，買地也應該要比照有罰則，不能只是無效，對於這個部分，院長，您覺得如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以，等於它就是一個禁止的行為，除非它有非常大的特例，因為在相關的規定裡面，對此沒有行政處罰或者刑罰，這部分我們應該檢討。但是如果有遇到這類的案子，至少先確定它是自始就無效的一個購地行為。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個冒名頂替的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這就是漏洞所在。"],["卓院長榮泰：被冒名的這個人頭，他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長，願意就這個部分來討論修法。","接下來，我是原住民，當然我更關心原保地的部分，到底中國人、中資有沒有買原保地？我特別跟內政部索資，這個地方經過審查，人沒有問題、地也不是機敏地區，經過許可的共計548件、列管147件、繼續列管401件，我問這些到底有沒有在原保地，他們回答我說「均非屬原住民保留地」。我當然也知道啊！為什麼？因為我們根本無從得知，雖然我們知道一定有，但是我們無從得知，既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查，那我想要來問一下原民會，請原民會。"],["主席：時間暫停，跟伍委員建議，我們的硬體就是3位，我先請陸委會主委下去，然後請原民會上來，你看這樣好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：時間請繼續。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教主委，有沒有中國人士用人頭在臺灣買原保地的清查資料？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就目前來講，我們也在清查，還沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，我只是要讓您清楚地知道，在防堵中資買地上，特別是原住民保留地，是一個很大的問題，目前沒有資料，無從查起，也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題。所以我在這邊要特別提醒，像我剛剛提到的，在佳山基地的附近，去年有兩大集團、七間公司對準佳山基地，中資喔！為什麼我說這個地方重不重要？我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演時常常去挑戰這個界線，我們的佳山基地。我們來看一下這個地圖，佳山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分，然後七星潭是在靠海邊的部分，你看它的附近，全部都是原住民保留地，周邊有很多的原住民保留地。我特別向國防部索資，因為佳山基地只是其中一例啊！結果我索資之後，原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處，總計五千六百多公頃。","所以這個部分我們就很驚訝，像前一陣子、兩個月前媒體有揭露，天啊！900萬購得的原住民保留地，竟然可以設定2億的貸款，因此這個部分大家都說：什麼！怎麼做到的？還好媒體有揭露，他說這個2億不是設定給銀行，是設定給開發公司，而這個開發公司的背景一查，有東莞的台商副會長、有中國台企聯會長，也有我們的政治人物，過去縣長的子弟兵等等。如果沒有新聞爆料，我們一般社會很難知道，但是它不是個案，我跟原民會的索資，我就講幾個給院長聽聽看，在五峰鄉公告現值6萬可以擔保3,000萬；獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億；秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3,688萬；復興區75萬可以擔保3,000萬；海端鄉160萬可以擔保5,000萬；信義鄉82萬可以擔保1,000萬；仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3,000萬；尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8,000萬。這些都只是冰山一角，很可怕的是，現在是集團式的收購，它結合投資者、開發者、掮客、政治人物，他們到處到原鄉收購土地，您可以看一下這個圖，全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告，大剌剌的廣告，以林地為限，他要用現金收購，也把他的手機號碼都放上去，還告訴大家不要撕、功德無量，全國到處搜刮土地。這一些是什麼？一胎、二胎，民間當鋪、資產管理公司以現金吸引，然後設定抵押之後再交易給人頭，這樣的情形非常嚴重。","我要給院長看一個數據，學者也在呼籲，學者已經告訴我們，他推估目前已經流失的私有原保地是45.5%，也就是說，超過一半已經不是原住民在實際使用，就像我剛剛講的，什麼叫借名登記？我們兩個人講好，地登記在我這邊，實際的使用權在你那邊，其中多少是中資、是拿來做什麼用，完全不得而知，所以我在這邊要說，要不要防堵？有，上一屆行政院有把原保條例送進來原民會，也做了很多的討論，但是最終宣告沒有獲得支持，它有沒有防堵？在草案第十七條有寫私有原保地不得設定耕作權、典權或抵押權給非原住民，只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄互助社做設定抵押，這至少是一個防堵破口的機制，這個條例非常的重要。","所以我在這個地方要先特別謝謝院長，我在110年透過總質詢，做了幾次禁伐補償的質詢，一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長交代原民會來研議，113年雖然在風風雨雨之中，我也看到行政院對我們原保地的重視，因為林保署那邊的獎輔造林已經提高到6年60萬，如果我們沒有在禁伐補償做對應，我相信我們會有很大的山林災難，但是我在這邊非常的感謝。","我希望院長能夠責成內政部、原民會、陸委會偕同相關部會，盤查中資以人頭戶購買原保地的情形。第二個，我的訴求是希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例，去修訂中資人頭買賣的罰則。第三個，希望院長、行政院支持原保條例，本會期繼續送立法院審查。臺灣的每一塊土地都很重要，我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力，是不是請院長支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們一定支持，中資進來購買任何的土地，除非它經過嚴格法定的程序，原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會，還有內政部共同來清查。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：關於原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例，既然以前送進來過，請主委再詳細地規劃，在增加國家安全的議題上，我們在最快的時間內一起來合作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12號劉書彬委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143701_00012"}}},{"id":"160437","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160437","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfcb33c81b5f4f3f55f03f39af0a757675b01fba8380de05296603b2b90a1618470218920b9c28b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:50:20 - 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族群委員的人事費"},{"start":305.871,"end":335.311,"text":"我們希望他改聘正式的公務員的這個議題上原民會你們又發新聞稿說這個決議是沒有法律效力的沒有辦法實質保障主任的權益但是主委你看一下人事行政總署在1月6號發函給你們原民會要要求你們配合修法然後請你們評估人力的需求並且要循程序函報行政院"},{"start":335.871,"end":342.061,"text":"主委这是你没有无视法律呢还是你的幕僚在欺骗你给你错误的讯息"},{"start":342.796,"end":371.224,"text":"委員我跟妳報告因為刪除掉了這個族群委員那當然對我們的一些行政量能真的是沒有我現在跟你講的是我們刪除了這些無給值的這些預算之後把這個錢拿去改聘為正式的公務員而且我們的附帶決議也這麼說可是呢你們卻說這個是沒有法律效力的可是人事行政總署已經告訴你們啦要求你們配合啊"},{"start":371.904,"end":393.272,"text":"主委所以你們真的實在是你要進入狀況我很擔心你的幕僚都在欺騙你啊不是欺騙啦委員我跟你講再來再來再來我們來看一下員警吧主席委員的這個聘任從以前就是這樣子的進行嘛主委主委人事總處已經告訴你了他是有法律效力的啦所以請你們園民會要配合修法看到了沒有"},{"start":393.632,"end":418.204,"text":"我們也有配合請就說有一些我們希望已經請你配合修法了來再來我現在要跟你談的是原基法原基法在一百零四年徵訂了第二之一條要要求設置部落公法人可是呢民進黨執政這八年來申不出一個部落公法人現在你們園民會申出了一個叫做什麼公法人事辦計畫"},{"start":419.505,"end":438.927,"text":"然後我們看到這個事辦計畫的草案目前規劃是每一個部落要給他一百萬人事費就佔了六成六十萬然後業務費佔了四成四十萬請問一下主委部落公法人事辦計畫是不是有限定部落的數額"},{"start":440.849,"end":466.959,"text":"我跟委員報告為什麼要有事辦這個計畫因為我來之後我想講了這麼多年都沒有辦所以原住民的支持一直是停頓我希望說找幾個部落我們負責任的來找幾個部落為什麼要找這幾個部落是有原因的我們認為這個部落不管是村長代表部落會議的主席還有地方的核心幹部可以"},{"start":467.608,"end":495.741,"text":"比較能夠有一些共識所以我們希望找這幾個部落做得成功之後讓其他的部落也來看主委我聽到您的說法了我覺得您的說法是沒有辦法說服族人的啦因為你們沒有公開說明沒有公開堆建沒有公開審查這是不是又是一個綠油有事半板然後呢部落應該是由下而上不應該有園民會你們密室圈定啊"},{"start":496.281,"end":520.2,"text":"所以我在這邊要求你要公開決策公平然後建立民主參與跟資訊的透明機制讓全國七百多個部落都有公平競爭的機會畢竟人事費六十萬業務費四十萬這是一百萬不少的金額對部落的族人來說它會是另外一個人事的安排不是嗎我跟委員報告"},{"start":524.903,"end":546.398,"text":"這確實不是利有有的部落啊那請問一下你現在核定的這些部落他們有公開說明嗎現在核定的部落有幾個我們有下去跟他們做溝通做說明啊我們700多個部落裡面你是怎麼樣公開跟大家來說呢部落是如何來跟你原民會申報計畫呢這些你都沒有說明啊好啦 接下來我要跟你談預算"},{"start":547.679,"end":574.871,"text":"在114年度的预算里面原民会你们新闻稿又对外说什么对于推动族语教会的一亿一千万元的预算要采取冻结的措施这严重冲击到部落发展看到新闻稿我真的是摇头我觉得你们原民会是不是人格分裂了因为我们在提这份说明的时候这个提案的时候说明清清楚楚这反映的是基层的现况"},{"start":575.451,"end":592.043,"text":"因为有族人跟我还有原民会的教文处反映相同的意见这个意见是什么就是针对推动落实族语生活化的执行意见我们看一下同样是执行落实族语生活化的族语保姆的政策"},{"start":592.964,"end":611.295,"text":"他有非常嚴謹的查核機制還有訪視人員還有專管中心而主語教會沒有欸甚至連審查主語教會核銷的會計事務所他們都發出聲明這個聲明說什麼看一下非依照審計準則查核"},{"start":613.12,"end":640.707,"text":"因此对上述各受奖励的单位也就是各教会的运作情形他的整体是不是允荡表达什么不提供任何程度的确信主委您看一下连会计事务所他们都不甘帮圆明会跟教会背书了这里面是不是有很大的问题啊所以呢本席就跟教文处一起开会我们做出了结论"},{"start":641.387,"end":666.149,"text":"我們把這些預算先暫時凍結然後來修訂原住民族語言發展補助辦法然後把族語教會族語保姆語推組織等等這些團體或者是個人未來他都可以申請到原民會的經費補助而且很重要的是不受年限的限制主委你應該知道族語教會的政策是根據"},{"start":667.61,"end":695.667,"text":"國家語言整體發展方案這五年計畫 對吧到116年就沒有主語教會的政策了耶所以我們修訂這個辦法就是為了未來我們主語推廣的政策可以更擴大適用對象並且要常態性的補助沒有年限的我跟委員報告你難道不支持嗎我們改過這個補助的辦法一樣的教會也要循這個辦法來"},{"start":697.988,"end":721.056,"text":"這正是我要跟您說的很好主委您是支持的因為這個新版原住民族語言發展補助辦法就在4月17號的時候已經按照我們所謂的解凍條件已經修正發布了嘛對不對所以可見本席這個提案是有正當理由的我們不是在為難你們機關"},{"start":722.737,"end":749.131,"text":"如今呢你們也已經辦理完成事項了但是主委解凍報告還沒有送到立法院主委你當初都說了凍結這個案會衝擊不過可是現在可以解凍了可是現在已經可以解凍了很快就會提出來我們現在再整理可是你的意見好像跟行政院長不太一樣"},{"start":749.551,"end":753.633,"text":"同樣是114年的預算我要現在跟你談的是南島民主論壇的問題更是離譜了"},{"start":773.24,"end":801.446,"text":"南岛民主論壇從109年到114年這是總共六年計劃所以從109年到113年已經花費了我們的公務預算2.2億也是佔全部公務預算的2.5億的九成所以我之前就請人民會請你們提出效益的分析你們給我的報告裡面最重要的成果是什麼華西巴黎的音樂祭對吧"},{"start":802.23,"end":826.544,"text":"我仔細一看 華西巴黎的音樂劇根本不是用南島民族論壇的經費啊你們怎麼可以這麼樣的一花接木的這樣子提出報告啊 主委然後你的新聞稿又講什麼刪除預算勢必會嚴重打擊國際信任度跟外交處境請問一下圓圓會 你們是外交部嗎"},{"start":827.484,"end":850.097,"text":"還是說外交部他們連邦交都顧不好然後要拜託你們去做我還沒請你回答主委我要問你我要問你南島民主論壇到底創造了多少部落的工作機會為族人帶來了多少經濟效益你要不要再跟我講巴西瓦里喔巴西瓦里不是用這筆預算喔"},{"start":851.36,"end":878.118,"text":"我跟妳報告 這幾年來我們跟南島 特別是南島語系的不管是帛琉 不管是土豪魯 不管是馬紹爾我們原住民對國家有貢獻請問對部落造成了多少的工作機會然後多少的經濟效益我們花了這麼多錢總是要有一些經濟效益啊"},{"start":878.618,"end":894.336,"text":"我也有跟你們講我們很多這些國家的留學生在台灣甚至於很多的大使來我們都請到部落去讓他們真正的感受到原住民的部落是什麼樣的狀況帶來了多少經濟效應這個部分是外交部做不到的"},{"start":894.876,"end":896.797,"text":"那些南島國家是我們自己的弟兄姊妹"},{"start":915.981,"end":933.449,"text":"主委你不是外交部你是園民會我們幫得上外交部的忙我覺得原住民很驕傲不要在這邊辯解了你不是外交部你是園民會再來園民會今年的預算是不是增加13億我們是不是根本沒有刪你們的基本設施維持費"},{"start":934.349,"end":947.177,"text":"基本設施維持費沒有刪預算增加基本設施費也沒有刪可是呢你們園民會竟然發公文恐嚇我們鄉鎮市公所說看一下"},{"start":948.485,"end":977.135,"text":"補助項目要先凍結50%要回收重新核定重新調整預算結構後續要滾動調整主委你知道嗎基本設施維持費是本席在立法院這23年來替原鄉的鄉長爭取的另外的預算你們現在說要凍結50%然後要收回要全部要重新滾動調整請問一下你們為什麼要這麼做"},{"start":978.305,"end":987.736,"text":"委員我跟你講即便是刪 即便是動了預算有關這些我們社府的一些經費就是補助一些弱勢團體的從來沒有斷過但是這個基本設施費"},{"start":993.624,"end":1015.854,"text":"是公所的一些基本設施的一些維持沒有做好立法院沒有刪除你們這筆預算啊那你們為什麼要公然的發公文給原鄉的公署我們要終結預算啊我們要終結預算來看就是說也很誠懇的跟公司講請你們按照科目我們不是刪掉請你們按照科目先50%而已嘛我們沒有刪也沒有凍結你憑什麼要凍結鄉公所的這50%預算好我們現在我要再問您"},{"start":1023.188,"end":1037.597,"text":"我們根本沒有刪這個預算 原民會的預算也增加了13億你們也不斷的發新聞稿 向我們的國人說推廣原住民族政策 編列的政策宣導費用3696萬元也遭到我們在野黨全數刪除該會未來就沒有辦法透過媒體來傳遞相關政策的資訊"},{"start":1048.443,"end":1075.625,"text":"導致族人錯失重要的權益請問族委我們沒有園民台嗎園民台每年拿我們人民納稅錢五億卻沒有辦法傳遞資訊嗎而你們園民會的錯誤宣導只會混淆視聽散佈錯誤的資訊預算明明是增加的你們卻還趕預算不夠然後你們一邊又花大錢散佈假消息這樣的園民會族人能夠接受嗎你們這樣子胡搞小搞難道"},{"start":1076.886,"end":1097.633,"text":"立法委員不應該好好監督你們嗎然後我們再看到原民會你們惡意散佈假消息之後民進黨的側翼就接著混淆視聽了請問主委台大園圖中心今年度流標是因為禁法補償的關係還是因為財化法的關係你知道嗎民進黨的側翼一直講是因為禁法補償和財化法的關係"},{"start":1099.213,"end":1121.567,"text":"看一下公文原民會1月23號回文告訴我台大沿途中心的流標是因為常年入管人士效益不彰再加上推廣活動另外外包辦理這導致招標金額比去年少請問是你說謊還是民進黨的側翼者說謊現在給你機會來澄清你講的這個本來是在台大來做"},{"start":1124.412,"end":1136.045,"text":"你已經回文給我了啦是因為他的入管人事效益不彰嘛所以不是禁法補償跟財化法的關係嘛對嗎好 謝謝現在我要再跟你談財政劃分授之法"},{"start":1140.129,"end":1153.141,"text":"你們的新聞稿說財政劃分修正影響了運作更將會嚴重衝擊援助民族的地區鄉鎮區公所的財政跟地方建設的發展請問一下財政收支劃分法修了哪幾條"},{"start":1155.542,"end":1167.777,"text":"這個我所知道的財政收支方法如果修了幾條你連修了幾條都講不出來然後精算的結果會影響多少原鄉的這些財政你都不知道會影響公所的財政啊"},{"start":1170.64,"end":1193.677,"text":"我問過主計總署 主計總署告訴我 園民會的預估只是可能延伸的情形 不是實際的狀況你連修了哪幾條也沒有辦法講出實際狀況你還要恐嚇主委主委這是你應該做的事情嗎那你知道我提的財化法是要求行政院額外找到支持園鄉的薰球請問你支持我的修法嗎"},{"start":1194.677,"end":1204.71,"text":"額外給縣市政府...你不用轉了啦,謝謝我請卓院長如果我們的額度一樣封鎖,不一定能夠...時間暫停一下好不好,謝謝麻煩請卓院長背信我現在請卓院長"},{"start":1212.915,"end":1233.849,"text":"主委你要更加努力我知道你很認真但是你有一些幕僚真的在欺騙你請問一下院長你剛剛看到了我舉了那麼多園民會的問題它是嚴重失能而且人力流失非常的嚴重人事混亂決策錯誤假消息是滿天飛"},{"start":1234.87,"end":1245.575,"text":"我在這邊要求你責成園民會一個月之內調查我們人員外流的原因然後整頓人事團隊並且要停止散發誤導性的新聞稿 可以嗎"},{"start":1248.944,"end":1264.766,"text":"請主委能夠一個月內調查人員外流的原因同時對這個會內的人事團隊要做精神上的鼓勵那麼有沒有發布誤導性的新聞可以檢討沒有的話要向委員說明"},{"start":1265.086,"end":1288.787,"text":"好謝謝院長我要問你的就是金髮補償的問題在9月行政院遭到外界的批判了之後花了49天你們認錯不救了現在呢114年度的總預算也已經公佈原民會的追加預算也已經送到你的行政院了院長請問一下追加預算什麼時候會送進立法院金髮補償這一個"},{"start":1291.235,"end":1311.581,"text":"預算不夠的問題我們經過朝野黨團在行政院裡面溝通協調才達成共識並不是行政院認錯我們是協商主任最關心的是到底能不能夠在九月份的時候領到一公頃六萬塊的補償金跟委員報告現在我們針對"},{"start":1312.847,"end":1335.13,"text":"因美國這個關稅的調整世界貿易重整我們現在這個階段第一要向國人提出的是我們未來在這個禮拜之內要提出的特別條例跟特別預算我問您的是我的族人能不能拿到一公頃六萬塊看一下這不只是影響族人權益喔還關係到你們政黨某位立法委員的政治承諾喔請您聽一下"},{"start":1345.455,"end":1364.802,"text":"請問院長這很嚴重耶請問一下九月份到底族人能不能領到一公頃六萬塊的補償因為剛剛族委說可以領得到我們在處理特別條例特別預算之後我們會統合整個今年度的總預算到底被刪減的數字該怎麼處理之後一併就整體的最佳預算送出"},{"start":1365.97,"end":1370.337,"text":"請問一下監察院已經針對預算提出釋憲了行政院要跟進嗎"},{"start":1371.668,"end":1400.438,"text":"這一定會對預算案跟財劃法所以我問候主席總書行政院一旦跟進並且憲法法庭財準暫時處分就無法處理追加預算即便剛剛我們考慮用綜合發展基金可是看一下到三月底可以動用的現金不到14億遠遠沒有辦法支應24億的預算缺口我再問你一次請你正面的回答我的族人九月份到底能不能領到"},{"start":1401.218,"end":1422.108,"text":"一公頃六萬塊的補償金如果行政院對預算案跟裁劃法提出釋憲如果提出釋憲也併同暫時處分的話影響的就不只是這十四億二十四億而已所以到底能不能領到我們會努力在特別預算特別條例特別預算之後和現在"},{"start":1423.629,"end":1446.572,"text":"立法院向校行政院自行刪除的部分現在還沒有辦法刪除所以到底能不能領到剛剛主委說可以領到你們的執政黨的委員說如果沒有領到他要辭職我要請院長記住不論是你也好還是剛剛那位執政黨的立法委員我們的族人如果不能夠在九月份如期領到一公頃六萬塊的補償金的話"},{"start":1448.033,"end":1467.724,"text":"後果你們要自己承擔喔也請你們負起責任接下來我要講的是當前世界上最重要的事情也是台灣人民最關心的那就是美國對等關稅的議題從4月2號到現在政府團隊在應對對等關稅這件事情上你們不但錯估形勢而且手忙腳亂"},{"start":1468.684,"end":1486.816,"text":"你們也沒有做好最好的準備做最壞的打算你們只知道盲目的順從美國的政府的號令比起民進黨政府被動的被川普吃乾媽勁我覺得新加坡總理黃巡柴先生的態度更令我尊敬看一下黃總理他在4月8號國會發言的時候他說"},{"start":1489.218,"end":1514.598,"text":"对于美国宣布向新加坡征收10%的对等关税他感到失望他说新美有深厚的友谊这不是对朋友应该有的行为他还说美国只着重于货物贸易但是实际上美国跟许多服务贸易伙伴都保持着顺差美国向世界出口软体服务"},{"start":1515.118,"end":1539.505,"text":"教育 娱乐 金融和商业服务等等我们可以看到尽管新加坡政府他也宣布了不在对等关税上面来报复美国但是黄总理他不卑不亢他诚恳说了实话他为什么呢我们民进党你们就不能够对这个所谓的坚弱磐石的朋友表示失望"},{"start":1540.245,"end":1560.592,"text":"你們為什麼不能夠用朋友的道義來要求美國呢而這樣的友誼難道不該懷疑嗎我在這五年來我一直對美國的對台政策跟你們發出警示我們為什麼要開放萊豬進口我們為什麼要放寬美國農藥殘留量的管制"},{"start":1561.252,"end":1586.566,"text":"我们为什么要接受美国提出来的台湾学人法案然后让美国官员到我们政府工作我们为什么要签署那个对我们贸易谈判根本非常不利的台美贸易倡议我们为什么要把九成以上的外汇存顶大把大把的去买美债而我的这些疑问其实呢总结起来就是一句话"},{"start":1587.446,"end":1611.662,"text":"一昧的依靠美国就是死路一条但是纵使我说了这么多可是民进党政府你们就是不听美国政府说什么民进党政府你们就做什么你们还贴飘签说我是以美论结果呢川普政府现在所做的行为在我们看来就是以美啊"},{"start":1612.623,"end":1641.602,"text":"還原美國是必要的因為只有這樣我們才能夠獨立自主的做出最有利於人民的判斷這一次的對等關稅對台灣人民來說是災難而我們的賴總統卻要人民吃苦當吃補院長不向美國報復並不等於就該全面投降您認為呢台灣當然不會向任何一個國家投降包括美國包括中國在內"},{"start":1642.95,"end":1658.982,"text":"但是我們對於川普總統的新的關稅政策我們在4月4號的記者會當中我們就說過了這是一個不合理的計算公式我們一定會提出嚴正的反應很好 我們都說過了4月4號但是呢 我們賴總統"},{"start":1660.223,"end":1677.074,"text":"他已經把底線都告訴了美國我們不會採取報復的證據在4月15號的時候有委員質詢你政府是不是有考慮要加碼持有美戰你說內部是有準備的我們任何選項都有討論不一定採行這樣的方式看一下最近外傳"},{"start":1677.994,"end":1701.145,"text":"美国可能要逼迫美债的债权人将所持有的美债换成一百年期的临时债券针对这件事情中央银行总裁杨金龙他也回应说如果真的是这么样的转换那就相当是美债的倒债了那您之前有说关于加码持有美债政府内部有准备请问是准备什么"},{"start":1701.525,"end":1721.119,"text":"是加碼呢 還是轉換呢應該更正 我說我們任何的選項都在我到底會不會要現在問你的是美債的問題對 它也當然是一個選項你們是加碼還是轉換我們在我們的方案裡面如果沒有提出來那就是不是我們的方案所以你認為購買美債再加碼美債不是你們的方案"},{"start":1721.804,"end":1745.216,"text":"這是一個選項,但是我們如果最後重整沒有提出來,那就是不是我們選舉的內容。好啦,我要在這裡告訴您的是,院長,不管是加碼還是轉換,結果都是楊金龍總裁他所說的,倒在。而經過川普這麼樣的震撼教育,台灣全民其實都聰明了,大家都在看,也都在等。"},{"start":1746.328,"end":1765.726,"text":"不是您在這邊一直三言兩語撥開重點在這邊打詢的態度我想台灣人民現在正面臨的是生死存亡的大事所以我們是要非常嚴肅的看待這樣的事情我們非常嚴肅"},{"start":1766.807,"end":1791.103,"text":"我們也從4月4號提出的9個面向20項措施當中也告訴國人我們對產業的支持所以我們先前是有準備的我們也提升了那我們現在的策略是備妥所有的協調談判的方案內容隨時準備啟動在第一次的正式視訊會議之後隨時準備下一次任何形式的談判請問第一次視訊會議你們的結論是什麼"},{"start":1793.665,"end":1821.463,"text":"我們說過了雙方對於對等關稅非關稅貿易障礙以及包括出口管制在內的多項議題都進行了交換意見現在我們要把這些意見重整之後等待下一次應該很快就會到來跟美方進行的談判第二次談判會是什麼時候這個因為美方還要針對很多的國家但是我敢跟委員說我們已經是在優先的國家行列當中多優先很優先"},{"start":1822.738,"end":1847.986,"text":"獨優宣媒我有告訴您什麼時候嗎我們認為我們應該在因為第一波的這個國家大概應該都這樣接觸像日本他也接觸過了其他也接觸過了我們認為我們會爭取最優先的時間你們認為會是在什麼時候九月以後嗎九月以後九月以後九月以後就超過了九十天了九月之前當然之前"},{"start":1850,"end":1854.824,"text":"最後我還是要說不像美國低頭並不等於就該全面投降請你們堅持"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時50分）韓院長，早安。我要先請原民會曾主委。"],["主席：麻煩請原民會備詢。"],["高金委員素梅：卓院長先休息一下，但是也請你好好聽一下我對曾主委的質詢，好嗎？謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：曾主委，早安。"],["曾主任委員智勇：早。"],["高金委員素梅：在今年3月12號，你率領你們的主管來我的辦公室業務報告，我看得出來，您是有心要做事而且有心要改變。但很遺憾的是，您身邊的幕僚恐怕正在拖累整個原民會，因為他們做出很多錯誤的決策，甚至還發布了一些問題百出的新聞。首先，我現在要跟你談的是，我看到原民會的第一個問題就是人力流動率非常驚人，在新莊聯合辦公大樓的不僅僅只有原民會，還有文化部跟職安署。原民會有198名正式人員，短短10個月裡面，異動了45個人，將近四分之一！我們對比文化部、職安署，他們都是以內部升遷為主，而原民會都是申請外調，高達了29個人，超過了六成，好可怕！你看到這個數據沒有？而今年1月行政院提出的霸凌案件報告也大聲疾呼，要落實總統改變職場文化、杜絕霸凌的政策指示，要確保公務體系能夠健康的運作，同時也承諾行政院院長要要求各機關，全面清查是不是存在霸凌行為，並且要迅速調查跟依法處理。請問主委，原民會這麼多人離開，代表原民會的職場環境是讓人待不下去的，大家不是升遷，而是紛紛逃離，你是不是有全面清查、調查，是不是有職場霸凌或者管理上的問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員的指教。我要跟委員講，原民會的流動率這麼高不是現在才有，我來了以後才知道，因為原民會沒有宿舍，我們大部分的同仁都是從原鄉來的族人，甚至於他們在考試填志願的時候，也不太喜歡填原民會，因為這嚴重影響到他的生活。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，我在立法院已經23年了，原民會流動率第一次那麼高，您剛剛講的問題是長年存在的問題，這10個月當中還不到1年，所以你是不是可以在這邊承諾我要回去調查一下？可不可以一個月之內給我一些你們調查的書面報告？可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。現在我要跟你談業務執行，你們荒腔走板的例子比比皆是，我們就拿禁伐補償這個問題來說，去年本席在兩次的院會質詢，你一再護航，說禁伐補償的公務預算不足，可以用綜合發展基金來支應，可是事實是這樣嗎？沒有！貴會提出追加預算的申請，清楚寫說需要將近24億元，而我在今年也查了3月份最新的報表，我們的基金扣掉負債之後，可以動用的現金剩不到14億，這是根本不夠用的，您知道嗎？但是沒關係，主委，你應該知道，11月7號行政院長承諾，要用追加預算來補救禁伐補償。請問一下主委，今年9月我們的族人可以如期領到1公頃6萬塊的禁伐補償金嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝，可以，因為……"],["高金委員素梅：可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以，我們有提出追加預算，就是補足那個……"],["高金委員素梅：你已經提出追加預算了嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：但是院長已經核定了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前還沒有，但是我相信院長會。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝您，希望您的回答，院長聽到了。","我們再來看一下，剛剛三讀通過的原民會組織法裡面有關族群委員無給職的議題，原民會你們發新聞稿說，族群委員名單不是主委一個人一己意志之決定，而是依照各界公推，還有透過審查的結果。實際上根本沒有公開推薦的程序，絕大部分的族人也不清楚知道我們族群委員的功能是什麼，最後我們看到的就是一片「綠友友」，立委的助理國家養。另外族群委員的人事費，我們希望他改聘正式公務員的這個議題上，原民會你們又發新聞稿說，這個決議是沒有法律效力的，沒有辦法實質保障族人的權益，但是主委，你看一下人事行政總處在1月6號發函給原民會，要求你們配合修法，然後請你們評估人力的需求並且要循程序函報行政院。主委，這是你無視法律，還是你的幕僚在欺騙你，給你錯誤的訊息？"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，我跟你報告，因為刪除掉了族群委員，當然對我們的一些行政量能真的是有很大的影響。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我現在跟你講的是我們刪除了這些無給職的預算之後，把這個錢拿去改聘為正式的公務員，而且我們的附帶決議也這麼說，可是你們卻說這個是沒有法律效力的，但人事行政總處已經告訴你們啦，要求你們配合啊！主委，所以你們真的實在是……你要進入狀況，我很擔心你的幕僚都在欺騙你。"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是欺騙啦！委員，我跟你講……"],["高金委員素梅：再來、再來，我們來看一下原基法……"],["曾主任委員智勇：族群委員的聘任，從以前就是這樣子進行。"],["高金委員素梅：主委、主委，人事總處已經告訴你了，它是有法律效力的啦，所以請你們原民會要配合修法，看到了沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們也有配合，就是說有一些，我們希望………"],["高金委員素梅：已經請你配合修法。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，我們也跟人總……"],["高金委員素梅：再來，我現在跟你談的是原基法。原基法在104年增訂第二條之一，要求要設置部落公法人，可是民進黨執政這8年來生不出一個部落公法人，現在你們原民會生出了一個叫做什麼公法人試辦計畫，然後我們看到這個試辦計畫的草案，目前規劃是每一個部落要給它100萬，人事費就占了六成60萬，然後業務費占了四成40萬。請問一下主委，部落公法人試辦計畫是不是有限定部落的數額？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有，我跟委員報告，為什麼要有試辦計畫？因為講了這麼多年都沒有辦嘛！所以原住民的自治一直是停頓的，我希望找幾個部落，我們負責任的來找幾個部落，為什麼要找這幾個部落是有原因的，我們認為這個部落不管是村長代表、部落會議的主席，還有地方的核心幹部，可以比較能夠有一些共識，所以我們希望找這幾個部落做得成功之後，讓其他的部落也來看。"],["高金委員素梅：好了，主委，我聽到你的說法了，我覺得您的說法是沒有辦法說服族人的，因為你們沒有公開說明、沒有公開推薦、沒有公開審查，這是不是又是一個綠友友試辦版？然後部落應該是由下而上，不應該由原民會你們密室圈定啊！所以我在這邊要求你要公開決策、公平並建立民主參與跟資訊的透明機制，讓全國七百多個部落都有公平競爭的機會，畢竟人事費60萬、業務費40萬，這是100萬，不少的金額，對部落的族人來說，它會是另外一個人事的安排，不是嗎？好，接下來……"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，我跟委員報告，這確實不是綠友友……"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛已經說過了啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是綠友友的部落，這是……"],["高金委員素梅：那請問一下，你現在核定的這些部落，他們有公開說明嗎？現在核定的部落有幾個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們有下去跟他們溝通做說明。"],["高金委員素梅：我們有七百多個部落裡面，你是怎麼樣公開跟大家來說呢？部落是如何來跟你原民會申報計畫呢？這些你都沒有說明啊。","接下來我要跟你談預算，在114年度的預算裡面，原民會你們的新聞稿又對外說什麼？對於推動族語教會的1億1,000萬元預算要採取凍結的措施，這嚴重衝擊到部落的發展。看到新聞稿，我真的是搖頭，我覺得你們原民會是不是人格分裂啦？因為我們在提這個提案的時候，說明清清楚楚，反映的是基層的現況，因為有族人向我及原民會教文處反映相同的意見，這個意見是什麼？就是針對推動落實族語生活化的執行意見。我們看一下同樣是執行落實族語生活化的族語保母政策，它有非常嚴謹的查核機制，還有訪視人員及專管中心，而族語教會沒有，甚至連審查族語教會核銷的會計師事務所都發出聲明，這個聲明說什麼？我們來看一下，非依照審計準則查核，因此對上述各接受獎勵單位，也就是各教會的運作情形整體是否允當表達不提供任何程度之確信。主委您看一下，連會計師事務所都不敢幫原民會跟教會背書了，這裡面是不是有很大的問題啊！所以本席就跟教文處一起開會，我們做出了結論，我們把這些預算先暫時凍結，然後修訂原住民族語言發展補助辦法，並讓族語教會、族語保母、語推組織等團體或者是個人未來都可以申請到原民會的經費補助，而且很重要的是不受年限的限制。主委你應該知道族語教會的政策是根據國家語言整體發展方案這個5年計畫，對嗎？到116年就沒有族語教會的政策了耶！所以我們修訂這個辦法就是為了未來我們的族語推廣政策可以更擴大適用對象，並且要常態性的補助、沒有年限的，主委您難道不支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，我們修改過這個補助辦法……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道。"],["曾主任委員智勇：一樣的，教會也要循這個辦法來進行補助，前面有審核……"],["高金委員素梅：這正是我要跟您說的。很好！主委您是支持的，因為這個新版的原住民族語言發展補助辦法在4月17號的時候已經按照所謂的解凍條件修正發布了，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：可見本席這個提案是有正當理由的，我們不是在為難你們機關，如今你們也已經辦理完成事項了，但是解凍報告還沒有送到立法院。主委，你當初都說了，凍結這個案會衝擊部落……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，我們現在正在整理，很快就會提出來。"],["高金委員素梅：可是現在已經可以解凍了，你們卻沒有動作。"],["曾主任委員智勇：很快就會提出來，我們現在正在整理。"],["高金委員素梅：可是你的意見好像跟行政院長不太一樣耶！"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有，因為前面沒有凍的我們有先處理……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的意思是說你們會提出來，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會提出來。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，內政委員會的召委是牛煦庭，我會請他趕快排，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，而且我要跟委員報告，我們要謝謝族語教會的貢獻。"],["高金委員素梅：同樣是114年的預算，我現在要跟你談的是南島民族論壇的問題。南島民族論壇的問題更是離譜，南島民族論壇從109年到114年，這是總共6年的計畫，從109年到113年已經花費公務預算2.2億，占全部公務預算2.5億的九成，所以我之前就請原民會提出效益分析，你們給我的報告裡面最重要的成果是什麼？PASIWALI音樂節對吧？但我仔細一看，PASIWALI音樂節根本不是用南島民族論壇的經費，你們怎麼可以移花接木提出這樣子的報告？然後你的新聞稿又講什麼？刪除預算勢必會嚴重打擊國際信任度跟外交處境，請問一下原民會，你們是外交部嗎？還是外交部他們連邦交都顧不好，然後要拜託你們去做？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，原民會……"],["高金委員素梅：我還沒請你回答，主委，我要問你南島民族論壇到底創造了多少部落的工作機會，為族人帶來了多少經濟效益？你不要再跟我講PASIWALI，PASIWALI不是用這筆預算喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，這幾年來，我們跟南島語系國家，不管是帛琉、吐瓦魯或馬紹爾，我們原住民對國家有貢獻耶！其實這幾個國家的邦交也是我們在協助……"],["高金委員素梅：請問對部落創造了多少工作機會，帶來多少經濟效益？我們花了這麼多錢，總是要有一些經濟效益啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊！委員，我跟你講，這些國家有很多留學生在臺灣，甚至於很多的大使來，我們都請到部落去，讓他們真正地感受到原住民部落是怎麼樣的狀況……"],["高金委員素梅：帶來了多少經濟效益？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個部分是外交部做不到的，但我們做得到。"],["高金委員素梅：帶來了多少經濟效益？解決了多少部落的工作機會？你原民會是外交部啊？你原民會自己的本業都做不好了，用在族人身上的預算你們根本沒有辦法爭取到，還要我們這個在野的立法委員幫你們爭取，你們還想要做外交啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：那些南島國家是我們自己的弟兄姊妹，我們沒有當作一定在做外交……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，你不是外交部，你是原民會，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們幫得上外交部的忙，我覺得原住民很驕傲啊！"],["高金委員素梅：不要在這邊辯解了，你不是外交部，你是原民會！","再來，原民會今年的預算是不是增加13億？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好。我們是不是根本沒有刪你們的基本設施維持費？"],["曾主任委員智勇：基本設施維持費沒有刪。"],["高金委員素梅：好，沒有刪。預算增加，基本設施維持費也沒有刪，可是你們原民會竟然發公文恐嚇我們鄉鎮市公所說補助項目要先凍結50%，要回收重新核定、重新調整預算結構，後續要滾動調整。主委，你知道嗎？基本設施維持費是本席在立法院這23年來替原鄉的鄉長爭取的另外預算，你們現在說要凍結50%，然後要收回，全部要重新滾動調整，請問一下，你們為什麼要這麼做？"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，我跟你講，即便是刪、即便是凍了預算，有關我們社福的經費，就是補助一些弱勢團體的，從來沒有斷過，但是這個基本設施維持費是公所基本設施一些維持要做……"],["高金委員素梅：立法院沒有刪除你們這筆預算，你們為什麼要公然地發公文給原鄉公所，說要凍結50%呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，但是我們要撙節預算啊！我們要撙節預算來看……就是也很誠懇地跟公所講……"],["高金委員素梅：請你們按照科目！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們不是刪掉……"],["高金委員素梅：請你們按照科目！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們只是先凍50%而已嘛！"],["高金委員素梅：我們沒有刪，也沒有凍結，你們憑什麼要凍結鄉公所這50%的預算！","現在我要再問您，我們根本沒有刪這筆預算，原民會的預算也增加了13億，你們也不斷地發新聞稿向國人說，推廣原住民族政策編列了政策宣導費用3,696萬元，也遭到我們在野黨全數刪除，該會未來就沒有辦法透過媒體來傳遞相關政策的資訊，導致族人錯失重要的權益。請問主委，我們沒有原民臺嗎？原民臺每年拿我們人民納稅錢5億，卻沒有辦法傳遞資訊嗎？而你們原民會的錯誤宣導只會混淆視聽、散布錯誤的資訊，預算明明是增加的，你們卻還敢說預算不夠，然後你們一邊又花大錢散布假消息，這樣的原民會，族人能夠接受嗎？你們這樣子胡搞瞎搞，難道立法委員不應該好好監督你們嗎？","然後我們看到在你們原民會惡意散布假消息之後，民進黨的側翼就接著混淆視聽了。請問主委，臺大原圖中心今年度流標是因為禁伐補償的關係還是因為財劃法的關係？你知道嗎？民進黨的側翼一直講是因為禁伐補償和財劃法的關係耶！你看一下簡報上的公文，原民會在1月23日回文告訴我，臺大原圖中心的流標是因為常年入館人次低、效益不彰，再加上推廣活動另外外包辦理，導致招標金額比去年少。請問是你說謊，還是民進黨的側翼在說謊？現在給你機會來澄清。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。你講的這個本來是在臺大來做，但是我們發包的時候……"],["高金委員素梅：你已經回文給我了，是因為它的入館人次效益不彰，所以不是禁伐補償跟財劃法的關係，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，但是它的額度太高，我們現在把它放到我們自己會裡面……"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。現在我要再跟你談財政收支劃分法，你們的新聞稿說財政收支劃分法的修法影響了運作，更將會嚴重衝擊原住民族地區鄉鎮市公所的財政跟地方建設的發展。請問一下，財政收支劃分法修了哪幾條？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我所知道的財政收支劃分法，如果……"],["高金委員素梅：修了幾條？你連修了幾條都講不出來，然後精算的結果會影響多少原鄉的財政你都不知道，你知道嗎……"],["曾主任委員智勇：會影響公所的財政啊。"],["高金委員素梅：我問過主計總處，主計總處告訴我原民會的預估只是可能衍生的情形，並不是實際的狀況，你連修了哪幾條也都沒有辦法講出實際狀況，你還要恐嚇族人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，如果修了財劃法……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，這是你應該做的事情嗎？你知道我提的財劃法是要求行政院額外找到支持原鄉需求的財源，請問你支持我的修法嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：額外給縣市政府……"],["高金委員素梅：好了，你不用轉了啦！謝謝，我請卓院長……"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果我們的額度一樣，公所不一定能夠……"],["高金委員素梅：韓院長，時間先暫停一下，好不好？"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝，他也講不出個所以然來！我現在請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，你要更加努力，我知道你很認真，但是你有一些幕僚真的在欺騙你。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，你剛剛看到了，我舉了那麼多原民會的問題，它是嚴重失能，而且人力流失非常的嚴重，人事混亂、決策錯誤、假消息滿天飛，我在這邊要求你責成原民會在一個月之內，調查人員外流的原因，整頓人事團隊，並且要停止發布誤導性的新聞稿，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請主委能夠一個月內調查人員外流的原因，同時對會內人事團隊要做精神上的鼓勵；至於有沒有發布誤導性的新聞，可以檢討，沒有的話要向委員說明。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝院長。","接著我要問你的是禁伐補償的問題，9月行政院遭到外界的批判之後，花了49天，你們認錯、補救了，現在114年度總預算也已經公布，原民會的追加預算也已經送到你行政院了。院長，請問一下追加預算什麼時候會送進立法院？"],["卓院長榮泰：禁伐補償預算不夠的問題，我們經過朝野黨團在行政院裡面溝通協調才達成共識……"],["高金委員素梅：有啊！你看一下，你簽名了！"],["卓院長榮泰：並不是行政院認錯，我們是協商。"],["高金委員素梅：你簽名了！好，我現在問你，族人最關心的是，到底能不能夠在9月份的時候領到1公頃6萬塊的補償金？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現在針對美國關稅的調整、世界貿易重整，我們現在就這個階段，第一要向國人提出的，就是我們在這個禮拜之內要提出特別條例、特別預算……"],["高金委員素梅：我問您的是我的族人能不能拿到1公頃6萬塊，這不只是影響族人權益，還關係到你們政黨某位立法委員的政治承諾，請您聽一下。","（播放影片）"],["高金委員素梅：院長，這很嚴重耶！請問一下，9月份族人到底能不能領到1公頃6萬塊的補償金，剛剛主委說可以領得到。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在處理特別條例、特別預算之後，會統合整個今年度的總預算，到底被刪減的數字該怎麼處理之後，一併就整體的追加預算予以送出。"],["高金委員素梅：好。請問一下，監察院已經針對預算提出釋憲了，行政院要跟進嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院一定會對預算案跟財劃法一併、同時提出。"],["高金委員素梅：我問過主計總處，行政院一旦跟進，並且憲法法庭裁准暫時處分，就無法處理追加預算喔！即便剛剛我們考慮用綜合發展基金，可是到3月底可以動用的資金不到14億，遠遠沒有辦法支應24億的預算缺口。我再問你一次，請你正面的回答，我的族人9月份到底能不能領到1公頃6萬塊的補償金？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果行政院對預算案跟財劃法提出釋憲，如果提出釋憲也併同暫時處分的話，影響的就不只是這14億、24億而已，影響可能更大。"],["高金委員素梅：所以到底能不能領到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會努力在特別條例、特別預算之後整合現在立法院要行政院自行刪除的部分，即現在還沒有辦法刪除，俟整合之後我們才能……"],["高金委員素梅：所以到底能不能領到？剛剛主委說可以領到；你們執政黨的委員說，如果沒有領到，他要辭職耶！我要請院長記住，不論是你也好，還是剛剛那一位執政黨立法委員也好，我們的族人如果不能夠在9月份如期領到1公頃6萬塊的補償金，後果你們要自己承擔，也請你們負起責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會整體考量行政院應提出多少的追加預算。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，接下來我要講的是當今全世界上最重要的事情，也是臺灣人民最關心的，那就是美國對等關稅的議題。從4月2號到現在，政府團隊在應對對等關稅這件事情上，你們不但錯估形勢，而且手忙腳亂……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有錯估形勢。"],["高金委員素梅：你們也沒有做好最好的準備、做最壞的打算，你們只知道盲目的順從美國政府的號令，比起民進黨政府被動的被川普吃乾抹淨，我覺得新加坡總理黃循財先生的態度更令我尊敬，我們看一下黃總理4月8號在國會的發言，他說他對於美國宣布向新加坡徵收10%的對等關稅感到失望，他說星美有深厚的友誼，這不是對朋友應該有的行為，他還說美國只著重於貨物貿易，但是實際上美國跟許多服務貿易夥伴都保持著順差，美國向世界出口軟體服務、教育、娛樂、金融和商業服務等等，我們可以看到，儘管新加坡政府也宣布不在對等關稅上面來報復美國，但是黃總理不卑不亢，他誠懇地說了實話。為什麼民進黨就不能夠對這個所謂的堅若磐石的朋友表示失望？你們為什麼不能夠用朋友的道義來要求美國呢？而這樣的友誼難道不該懷疑嗎？我在這5年來一直針對美國的對臺政策向你們發出警示，我們為什麼要開放萊豬進口？我們為什麼要放寬美國農藥殘留量的管制？我們為什麼要接受美國提出來的臺灣學人法案，然後讓美國官員到我們的政府工作？我們為什麼要簽署那個對我們貿易談判根本非常不利的臺美貿易倡議？我們為什麼要用九成以上的外匯存底大把大把的去買美債？而我的這些疑問其實總結起來就是一句話，一味的依靠美國就是死路一條，但是縱使我說了這麼多，民進黨政府就是不聽，美國政府說什麼，民進黨政府就做什麼，你們還貼標籤說我是疑美論，結果川普政府現在所做的行為在我們看來就是疑美啊！懷疑美國是必要的，因為只有這樣，我們才能夠獨立自主的做出最有利於人民的判斷，這一次的對等關稅對臺灣人民來說是災難，而我們的賴總統卻要人民吃苦當吃補，院長，不向美國報復並不等於就該全面投降，您認為呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣當然不會向任何一個國家投降，包括美國、包括中國在內，但是對於川普總統這個新的關稅政策，我們在4月4號的記者會當中就說過了，這是一個不合理的計算公式，我們一定會提出嚴正的反應，我們都說過了。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，在4月，但是……"],["卓院長榮泰：在4月4號。"],["高金委員素梅：對，但是我們賴總統已經把底限都告訴美國了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不會採取報復的政策。"],["高金委員素梅：在4月15號有委員在質詢你的時候問你政府是不是有考慮要加碼持有美債，你說內部是有準備的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對任何選項都有討論，不一定採行這樣的方式。"],["高金委員素梅：我們看一下，最近外傳美國可能要逼迫美債的債權人將所持有的美債換成100年期的零息債券，針對這件事情，中央銀行總裁楊金龍也有回應說，如果真的是這樣的轉換，那就相當於是美債的倒債了，那你之前有說關於加碼持有美債，政府內部有準備，請問是準備什麼？是加碼呢？還是轉換呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，應該要更正，我說我們任何的選項都在，而到底會不會用……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在問你的是美債的問題，你們準備怎麼樣？你們是加碼還是轉換？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，它當然也是一個選項，但是我們如果在我們的方案裡面沒有提出來，那就不是我們的方案啊！"],["高金委員素梅：所以你認為購買美債、再加碼美債不是你們的方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個選項，但是我們如果最後綜整沒有提出來，那就不是我們選取的內容了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，院長，我要在這裡告訴您，不管是加碼還是轉換，結果都是楊金龍總裁所說的倒債，而經過川普這樣的震撼教育，臺灣全民其實都聰明了，大家都在看，也都在等，不是您在這邊一直三言兩語撥開重點的這種答詢態度，我想臺灣人民現在正面臨生死存亡的大事，所以我們要非常嚴肅的看待這樣的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們非常嚴肅。"],["高金委員素梅：有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也在4月4號所提出的9個面向、20項措施當中，也告訴國人我們對產業的支持。所以我們先前是有準備的，我們也提升了，我們現在的策略是備妥所有協調談判的方案內容，隨時準備啟動，在第一次正式視訊會議之後，隨時準備下一次任何形式的談判。"],["高金委員素梅：請問第一次視訊會議你們的結論是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們說過了，雙方對於對等關稅、非關稅貿易障礙以及包括出口管制在內的多項議題都進行了交換意見，現在我們要把這些意見綜整之後，等待下一次應該很快就會到來的跟美方進行的談判。"],["高金委員素梅：第二次談判會是什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為美方還要針對很多的國家，但是我敢跟委員說，我們已經是在優先的國家行列當中。"],["高金委員素梅：多優先？"],["卓院長榮泰：很優先。"],["高金委員素梅：多優先？美國有告訴你什麼時候嗎？你們不是堅若磐石嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為第一波的國家大概應該都已經接觸，像日本，他也接觸過了，其他也接觸過了，我們認為我們會爭取最優先的時間。"],["高金委員素梅：你們認為會是在什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是我能……"],["高金委員素梅：9月以後嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：9月以後就超過90天了。"],["高金委員素梅：還是9月之前？"],["卓院長榮泰：9月之前，當然是之前。"],["高金委員素梅：好，最後我還是要說，不向美國低頭並不等於就該全面投降，好嗎？請你們堅持！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：不利國家的，我們不會選擇。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及原委會的備詢。","接下來登記第10號李坤城委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員李坤城書面質詢：","（內政組）","案由：本院委員李坤城有鑑於「移民署日前約談主張台灣回歸的中配「小微」後，「小微」竟然在抖音上祝慶勝利，完全無視台灣法律，更在抖音上嗆說，不要多費力氣，浪費台灣資源了，最後看看我有沒有事」，此舉，導致頻頻批判移民署無能。移民署的署長信箱和電話都被灌爆，還有網友貼出移民署專辦中配約談單位的電話，移民署還制式對來電或是留言的民眾表示，一切都依法進行處理，感謝您的關心。然而，中配對外宣傳及主張以武力消滅台灣主權之言論，顯已涉及違法，主管機關須依法嚴辦，不該悶著挨打，甚至對於憤恨不平之民眾也冷漠以對。爰此，要求行政院三日內責成內政部，除依法辦理、依法驅離之外，更應儘速研議加嚴修法，俾避免中配「亞亞」、「小微」、「恩綺」事件一再發生。綜上所述，敬請行政院於兩週內詳復及送交書面報告至本席辦公室為禱。"],["主席：接下來請登記第11號伍麗華委員質詢。劉書彬委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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當然我知道就是說如果是主動出行還涵蓋行人跟其他的交通運據那不過如果從行人來看的話我覺得還是要肯認我們的院長跟部長的努力的確提出了一些"},{"start":132.287,"end":158.036,"text":"相關的對應措施讓行人的傷亡事實上是7到15歲事實上是下降的不過當然也因為學上放學如果總體看上放學的數據事實上是還是高的所以我們就要來看就是說你們最近在一直在提出來的就是通學環境的改善計畫在通學改善計畫當中想問部長是不是了解到有一些問題事實上"},{"start":162.119,"end":172.983,"text":"你能不能充分掌握到有沒有一些困境非常謝謝林委員對於兒少尤其是交通安全的關心而且是長久以來的一個志工的工作我們非常的佩服"},{"start":173.85,"end":195.311,"text":"其實在院長的指導之下我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫內政部所負責是260億交通部是140億但是我們現在所提的永續人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重於由地方政府所提上來的譬如說學校的周邊可能是一個四方形但是我們可針對這個門口"},{"start":196.972,"end":221.657,"text":"後門或是側門的部分它可能是一個漏巷可能是一個不是有大車子要經過的地方這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候我們上交通部或者是內政部再提供這樣子的一個改善計畫就忽略掉這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向我想我們部長也很充分掌握雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年可是都充分掌握"},{"start":222.017,"end":250.2,"text":"不過有三個課題想來跟部長做一個討論大家好像都想改革只是看起來沒有人想要改變而且學區韓規韓可是沒有法規我覺得改善的進度事實上有一點慢為什麼這麼講首先我想問跟部長來看一下這張圖也就是說左邊跟右邊哪一個這是雲林縣古坑鄉的人行道的爭議哪一個是改善前哪一個是改善後"},{"start":255.218,"end":277.548,"text":"看起來沒有看起來沒有看起來右邊有改善但是呢這裡面的指引呢不是很清楚實際上左邊事實上是改善前可是他也不能講改善前是你們補助經費之後他改善成改善前可是後來民眾反對又改回來原來的樣子叫做改善後所以那筆錢簡直就是"},{"start":278.615,"end":307.551,"text":"沒有意義就是它等於事實上是效果有限而且所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通所以我才會講說大家好像都要改革可是好像沒有人要改變民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的有可能事實上是認知錯誤為什麼講認知錯誤甚至有民眾提出來說為什麼限縮我們的車道然後要鋪設人行道那這樣行車很危險我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋甚至"},{"start":308.271,"end":325.208,"text":"有時候民代里長跟議員都出面反對的時候常常做到一半就會像我們剛剛看到雲林縣股根鄉最後又改回來原來樣子那前面花的錢不是都是浪費的嗎甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難比如說"},{"start":326.052,"end":348.921,"text":"被謾罵或者甚至被黑衣人包圍的我們就會收到這樣子的一個訊息可是我們看日本的一個經驗來看的話他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作所以他們會用工作坊意見交流的會議甚至透過問卷調查"},{"start":350.242,"end":363.702,"text":"然後來共同制定相關的計畫然後甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫然後滾動式的去檢討甚至有去入校宣導甚至會有去做稽查"},{"start":364.381,"end":393.981,"text":"台湾不是没有,为什么?因为我们在113年5月1号就通过了行政条例,第六条也赋予了一些责任,说你要针对环境调查,第七条也赋予了说要跟当地的民众好好的去做沟通,甚至有一个范例可以依循的就是台南,台南事实上是公民团体跟政府一起配合,台南人本交通协会一直在宣导说,你做人行道就送车位,"},{"start":394.421,"end":417.465,"text":"你還是有車位不要用車位來阻擋人行道的鋪設所以才能重得市場就是一個很好的範例所以不是沒有一個好的例子在做所以也期待是不是可以針對於這樣子的第一個困境裡邊可以去考量嗎中央應該輔導地方政府來針對協助提案單位"},{"start":418.175,"end":436.589,"text":"還有呢當然我覺得要做一些社會溝通了解民眾的需求到底是什麼他們的反對的聲浪到底又是什麼而且希望能夠透過工程設計跟兼顧人形設施的那個設置跟停車的需求來達到大家有共識之後然後去布設才不會像"},{"start":437.162,"end":460.438,"text":"雲林縣谷坑鄉這樣子的一個反覆最後沒有解決問題那我也想問部長有沒有機會因為大家都沒有看過好的範例可不可以優先補助我們的改善效益高且執行可行性的地點比如說六都找個兩個地點四番地點讓民眾感受到好的地方的時候他們很多家長才會想說我也想要比照這樣辦"},{"start":461.278,"end":481.748,"text":"我不知道部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎謝謝委員我想委員你提供一個非常好的觀點就是說光是工程設施的改善或者是光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全尤其是校園安全上的顧慮所以你倡議希望能夠加入所謂的公民參與"},{"start":483.149,"end":504.784,"text":"或者是加入志工團體那如果說有很好的案例的話目前我們會提供六個直轄市政府先辦理兩處通學區的改善示範計畫那如果有機會的話我們也請委員一起來參與就是說裡面的學校的家長團體或者是外面的有關於交通安全的不一定是只有警察或者交通警察或者是村里長"},{"start":505.805,"end":531.07,"text":"他們都可以加入讓大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園的學童的通學的安全這是我們最大的希望謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾因為你們已經很努力做只是說我覺得線維問題還是要去解決讓民眾的反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會第二個困境就是說我們好像講學區可是學區到底是什麼可是我們看這張圖的話我們現在做法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了"},{"start":531.65,"end":545.47,"text":"甚至我覺得在看這個排名的時候我覺得不太可思議的地方就是說我們的數字線還是50到60那在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況所以我們的通學區 通學道路 通學路廊"},{"start":548.254,"end":565.548,"text":"我們的內政部有一些定義在可是如果走到地方的話我覺得有點讓我們覺得傻眼什麼通學項竟然還只是沒有給人行道只是一個通學項來封閉時段根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題他們上放學的一個困難所以學校呢"},{"start":566.028,"end":582.994,"text":"可能基層都會是我覺得孤軍奮戰的結果那目前全額補助的區目前大概都是申請的都是學校四個圍牆周邊有人行道那如果跨出這個四個周邊的跨出去的只有"},{"start":583.516,"end":597.291,"text":"站到0.8%只有台中南投跟苗栗三岸而已那99%就會是這個樣子的狀況根本就是跨出學校門口以外我就沒有路可以走了問題"},{"start":599.72,"end":614.075,"text":"這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎也是會嘛所以我們來看南韓南韓事實上花了28年他們在1988年到2016年他們做了幾件事把學區的定義清楚"},{"start":615.325,"end":632.797,"text":"還有呢標誌標訊否學校讓人家很清楚不是像我們只有一個檯面讓人家非常清楚的知道說學區到了還有個數限30那他們花了28年我認為台灣大概沒有辦法有這麼多年因為我們的出生率是一直下降"},{"start":633.464,"end":654.19,"text":"去年都只到13萬我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握可是他們下降96%非常難所以我也希望說我們有能不能可以也像他們一樣所以希望比照比照我們的我不敢講說要到韓國或到日本可不可以在學校為中心點"},{"start":655.68,"end":667.035,"text":"擴散150公尺不用到300韓國是300日本是500所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的所以我們就希望說可不可以有一個清楚的定義學區然後有否學校的標誌標線跟樹線"},{"start":670.259,"end":699.298,"text":"我不知道部長或院長怎麼看尤其是院長這邊謝謝委員對孩子的關心我想這個學區的法治化的話恐怕不只有內政部包括交通部還有教育部還有地方政府因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府都要一起來討論那您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做可是現在會碰到現實的困難就是越舊的學區人口越多就會像您剛所PO出來在新北的地區它可能一出去就是快速道路"},{"start":699.958,"end":720.765,"text":"那這部分呢我們在工程改善上面或者是說在學區的這個定義上面怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討讓我們有機會跟這三個部會一起來處理學區法治化的問題那確保那個通學的安全比較重要我相信因為院長應該也在院務會都有討論我知道也很努力所以我還是希望能夠"},{"start":721.525,"end":739.646,"text":"有一個進一步的示範區出來之後讓大家管委人資之後可以比照了另外困境3就是改善的進度我覺得還是太少太慢為什麼講因為為什麼112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還是沒有完工的狀態"},{"start":742.034,"end":758.357,"text":"為什麼會這麼慢原因是因為我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的一個工作因為他既然是做總機呢他就是把很多問題都丟給提案的學校那提案學校來做那他們寫的東西學校不是一個工程單位他寫的東西都不符合事實上"},{"start":758.897,"end":777.454,"text":"我們公共工程裡面要改善的這種樣態那最後就會是什麼我們的國土署也很辛苦省的案子還要一直來回來回溝通然後溝通到好的時候要做的時候做到一半又是我剛剛提的里長議員反對的時候又改回來又來變更計畫所以就會變成速度上事實上是慢的"},{"start":778.175,"end":800.167,"text":"那可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況所以可不可以要求未來標案未來他們要來申請案子的時候要求地方政府要拿出這些數據拿出他這些東西來作為一個依據然後另外一個是不是可以要求拜託一下就是說可不可以讓我們的"},{"start":802.355,"end":828.613,"text":"中央是不是可以提供學校一些交通改善的一個方向在而且也期待能夠公民團體一起參與公民團體可以做的一件好事情就是說他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力我覺得應該要善用公民團體的一個他們的能量那2021年我們的CRC國際審查委員"},{"start":829.209,"end":854.004,"text":"他很了解台灣的問題他說政府已經採取許多措施肯認我們解決了交通事故的死傷問題包括交通安全教育跟建立校園的停車區可是他也認為 委員會也覺得說建議中央政府要採取行動來確保地方層級在執行相關法規的時候來確保我們兒少對交通事故跟運輸政策制定的私自參與"},{"start":855.705,"end":872.372,"text":"明年我們要交第三次國家報告了這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候我們怎麼去回應他的確提出來說台灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了所以有效的措施才能夠解決問題"},{"start":873.712,"end":894.044,"text":"所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作那當然我想說部長也會覺得學校要地方政府那我覺得可能中央也要來促使我們的地方政府能夠積極的協助不是地方政府都沒有責任就把它丟到一個學校那這樣子學校通常他做不了事情"},{"start":895.123,"end":913.931,"text":"縣市政府才是實際的執行單位要確認這個角色還有要強化跨單位的合作那跨單位可能他的公務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校而不是把它丟給一個學校這樣子的話學校大半沒辦法做事而且教育單位要來彙整路徑"},{"start":914.671,"end":938.681,"text":"學校周遭的那個路徑因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料可是江部有一個很好的道安資訊平台是可以得到的那我也希望部長這邊是不是可以調整補助計畫的程序引進交通工程的專業來支持還有呢外部的支持那個資源譬如說公民團體交通的專業當然有引進我三項公民委員報告第一個"},{"start":940.265,"end":968.219,"text":"我們學校做商一定需要地方政府合作很多的領取等等第二個我們原來規定原來的企劃是四百個學校一年完成兩百個目前的商場也增加我會把四百個完全結束第二個新的學校做商的這個環境政策我要求再增加一段一定要延伸到一個足以安排學生的學生學動盪還可以把這種風促的環境謝謝因為去年的商場新的商場我剛好已經下降了那後面"},{"start":974.162,"end":985.449,"text":"好 謝謝林月琴委員質詢謝謝卓院長內政部長的備詢 謝謝接下來登記第八位王逸川委員質詢書面提出"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（10時23分）謝謝主席，麻煩卓院長跟劉世芳部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、內政部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：院長、部長早。今天要來跟你討論一個有關通學環境的課題，這是我從民間就一直關心、進來立法院一年多，也一直關注的一個議題，希望透過今天這樣一個總質詢，針對現在行政部門在努力的計畫案，在知道一些困境之後，可以更有一個方向去調動。首先先請問院長，針對7到15歲的交通傷亡狀態，你覺得有改善還是沒有改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：包括學童，包括青少年的事件？"],["林委員月琴：對，就是7到15歲。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在行人的永續提升人行安全計畫中，針對學校及重要路口，都有進行相關工作，我們當然希望能降低事故，但目前降低的幅度應該是不大。"],["林委員月琴：是，我想院長也都有充分掌握，兒少主動出行的交通事故，事實上，去年是歷年來最高的，尤其是自行車部分，大概較五年前成長了四成。當然我知道主動出行涵蓋行人跟其他交通運具，不過如果從行人來看，我覺得還是要肯認院長跟部長的努力，的確提出了一些相關的對應措施，讓7歲到15歲行人的傷亡事實上是下降的。如果總體看，上、放學的數據事實上還是高的，所以我們就要來看你們最近一直提出來的通學環境改善計畫，在計畫當中想問部長是不是瞭解一些問題……你能不能充分掌握到……"],["劉部長世芳：怎麼改善？"],["林委員月琴：有沒有一些困境？"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝林委員對於兒少，尤其是交通安全的關心，而且是長久以來志工的工作，我們非常地佩服。其實在院長的指導之下，我們有一個永續提升人行安全計畫，內政部所負責的是260億，交通部是140億，但是我們現在所提的永續提升人行安全計畫對於學校周邊的部分僅注重由地方政府提上來的，譬如學校的周邊可能是一個四方形，但是我們可能是針對這個門口，至於後門或側門的部分，它可能是一個陋巷、可能是一個大車子不能經過的地方，這個部分地方政府沒有提上來的時候，我們交通部或內政部在提供這樣子的一個改善計畫時就會忽略掉，這個可能是我們未來要改善的方向。"],["林委員月琴：是，我想部長也很充分掌握了，雖然上來的時間還沒滿一年，可是都充分掌握了。我有三個課題想跟部長討論，就是大家好像都想改革，但是看起來沒有人想要改變，而且學區喊歸喊，可是沒有法規，我覺得改善的進度事實上是有一點慢。為什麼這麼講？首先我想問，也跟部長來看一下這張圖，這是雲林縣古坑鄉人行道的爭議，左邊跟右邊哪一個是改善前，哪一個是改善後？"],["劉部長世芳：看起來是右邊有改善，但是這裡面的指引不是很清楚。"],["林委員月琴：實際上左邊是「改善前」，可是它也不能講是改善前，是你們補助經費之後它改善成改善前，可是後來民眾反對，又改回原來的樣子叫做「改善後」，所以那筆錢簡直就是沒有意義，它等於事實上是……"],["劉部長世芳：效果有限。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以我覺得很重要的就是所謂的社會溝通，所以我才會講，大家好像都要改革，可是好像沒有人要改變，民眾普遍對現狀的改變是有疑慮的，有可能是認知錯誤。為什麼講是認知錯誤？甚至有民眾提出來說，為什麼要限縮我們的車道，然後舖設人行道，這樣行車很危險啊？我覺得這種錯誤的認知使得他們去阻擋，有時候甚至民代、里長跟議員都出面反對，常常做到一半，就會像我們剛剛看到的雲林縣古坑鄉最後又改回原來的樣子，那前面花的錢不就全都浪費了嗎？甚至第一線的學校都會遇到什麼困難？譬如被謾罵，或者甚至是被黑衣人包圍，我們就會收到這樣子的訊息。","可是我們看日本的經驗，他們非常重視不同單位和利害關係人的溝通跟合作，所以他們會用工作坊、意見交流的會議，甚至透過問卷調查共同制定相關的計畫，甚至會有所謂的交通安全道路計畫，然後去滾動式地檢討，甚至是入校宣導和去做稽查。臺灣不是沒有，為什麼？因為我們在113年5月1日就通過了行人條例，第六條也賦予了一些責任，像是你要針對環境調查；第七條也賦予要跟當地的民眾好好地溝通，甚至有一個範例可以依循的就是臺南，臺南事實上是公民團體跟政府一起配合，也就是臺南人本交通促進協會一直在宣導，做人行道就送車位。你還是有車位，不要用車位來阻擋人行道的舖設，所以臺南崇德市場就是一個很好的範例，並不是沒有一個好的例子，所以也期待是不是可以針對第一個困境去考量嗎？中央應該輔導地方政府針對、協助提案單位，當然也要做一些社會溝通，瞭解民眾的需求到底是什麼、他們反對的聲浪到底又是什麼，而且希望能夠透過工程設計兼顧人行設施的設置及停車的需求，大家達到共識之後再去布設，才不會像雲林縣古坑鄉這樣反覆，最後沒有解決問題。","我也想問部長有沒有機會，因為大家都沒有看過好的範例，可不可以優先補助改善效益高，且具執行可行性的地點？比如在六都找2個示範地點，讓民眾感受到優點的時候，很多家長才會想要比照這樣辦理，部長或院長這邊可以承諾嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員，我想委員提供一個非常好的觀點，光是工程設施的改善，或者光是地方政府跟中央政府的合作，沒有辦法滿足大家對於人行道的安全，尤其是校園安全上的顧慮，所以你倡議希望能夠加入公民參與或者是加入志工團體。如果有很好的案例的話，目前我們會提供6個直轄市政府先辦理2處通學區的改善示範計畫，如果有機會的話，我們也請委員一起來參與，包括學校裡面的家長團體，或者是外面有關於交通安全的，不一定是只有警察或是交通警察或者是村里長，他們都可以加入，大家一起共同來討論怎麼樣保障校園學童通學的安全，這是我們最大的希望。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長可以做這樣的承諾，因為你們已經很努力做，只是我覺得有些微問題還是要去解決，讓民眾反彈聲浪減少的話才有機會啦！","第二個困境就是我們講學區，可是學區到底是什麼？我們看這張圖，現在的作法就是放一個牌子告訴大家學區到了，甚至我在看這個牌面的時候覺得有點不可思議，就是我們的速限還是50到60，在國外的話這是不可思議的狀況。對於我們的通學區、通學道路、通學路廊，交通部跟內政部有一些定義在，可是如果走到地方，我覺得有點讓人傻眼，什麼通學巷，竟然沒有給人行道，只是用一個通學巷的封閉時段，這根本沒有辦法解決孩子的問題、他們上、放學的困難。我覺得學校等基層都會覺得是孤軍奮戰，你們目前全額補助的區域，申請的大概都是學校4個圍牆周邊有人行道，跨出這4個周邊的部分只有占0.8%，只有臺中、南投跟苗栗3案而已，其他99%就會是這個樣子的狀況，根本就是跨出學校門口以外就沒有路可以走了，這個不會讓孩子發生交通事故嗎？也是會嘛！","我們來看南韓，事實上南韓花28年，他們在1988年到2016年做了幾件事，把學區定義清楚，還有學校的標誌、標線讓人家很清楚，不是像我們只有一個牌面，讓人家非常清楚地知道學區到了，還有速限30。他們花了28年，我認為臺灣大概沒辦法有這麼多年，因為我們的出生率一直下降，去年的出生人數只有13.5萬人，我相信院長跟部長都有充分掌握，可是他們的死亡人數下降96%，非常難達到，我希望我們能不能也像他們一樣，所以希望能夠比照，我不敢講說要到韓國或日本的程度，但可不可以以學校為中心點，擴散150公尺？不用到300公尺，韓國是300公尺，日本是500公尺，所以日本的傷亡事實上是更低的。因此我們希望可不可以清楚的定義學區，然後有for學校的標誌、標線跟速限，我不知道部長或院長怎麼看，尤其是院長這邊。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員對孩子的關心，我想這個學區的法制化，恐怕不只有內政部，包括交通部、教育部，還有地方政府，因為中小學的主管機關是地方政府，都要一起來討論。您所點到的問題其實我們大家都願意來做，可是現在會碰到現實的困難，就是越舊的學區人口越多，就會像您剛剛所秀出來的圖片，在新北的地區可能一出去就是快速道路，這部分我們在工程改善上，或者是在學區的定義上，怎麼樣做一個比較滾動式的檢討，讓我們有機會跟這3個部會一起來處理學區法制化的問題，確保通學的安全比較重要。"],["林委員月琴：因為院長應該在院務會議也都有討論，我知道也很努力，所以我還是希望能夠有一個進一步的示範區出來，讓大家廣為人知之後可以比照。","另外，困境三就是我覺得改善的進度還是太少、太慢，為什麼這麼說？因為112年的改善計畫到現在還有36%的工程還沒完工，為什麼會這麼慢？原因就是我覺得縣市政府好像是總機的工作，他既然是做總機，他就是把很多問題都丟給提案學校來做，但學校不是工程單位，他寫的東西事實上都不符合公共工程裡面要改善的樣態，所以最後就會怎麼樣？就是我們的國土署很辛苦，審的案子還要一直來回、來回的溝通，然後溝通到好、要做的時候，做到一半又是發生我剛剛提的狀況，遇到里長、議員反對的時候，又改回來、又來變更計畫，所以就會變成速度上是慢的。可是地方政府不是沒有資料喔！地方政府本來就充分掌握學校周遭人行環境的狀況，所以未來他們要來申請案子的時候，可不可以要求地方政府要拿出這些數據、拿出這些東西來作為一個依據？然後另外一個，是不是可以要求、拜託一下，中央可不可以提供學校一些交通改善的方向？而且也期待公民團體也能夠一起參與，公民團體可以做的一件事情就是，他可以去做社會溝通來一起協力，我覺得應該也要善用公民團體的能量。","CRC國際審查委員很了解臺灣的問題，他在2021年的時候提到，政府已經採取許多措施解決交通事故的死傷問題，包括交通安全教育及建立校園安全停車區。他肯認我們，可是委員會也說，建議中央政府要採取行動，確保地方層級確實執行相關法規，以及兒少對道路交通及運輸政策制定的實質參與。明年我們要交第三次國家報告了，這是2021年國際委員來審查的結論性意見，可是明年我們要交國家報告的時候，我們要怎麼去回應？他的確提出來說，臺灣的兒少交通傷亡實在是太高了，有效的措施才能夠解決問題，所以我們希望能夠有一個跨單位的合作，當然我想部長也會覺得，因為學校要地方政府協助，但我覺得可能中央也要來促使地方政府能夠積極的協助，不是地方政府都沒有責任，就把它丟給一個學校，這樣子通常學校做不了事情，所以縣市政府才是實際的執行單位，要確認這個角色。還有要強化跨單位的合作，可能他的工務局或者是他的交通局要來協力這個學校，而不是把它丟給一個學校，這樣子學校大部分都沒辦法做事，而且教育單位要來彙整學校周遭的路徑，因為學校沒辦法取得這些資料，可是交通部有個很好的道安資訊平臺是可以得到的。我也希望部長可以調整補助計畫的程序，引進交通工程的專業來支持，還有外部的支持資源，譬如說公民團體。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，交通的專業當然有引進，我三項跟委員報告：第一個，這個事情，尤其學校周遭一定需要地方政府合作，包括很多土地的取得等等。第二個，我們原來的計畫是400所學校，第一年完成200所，目前稍有增加，我們會把400所完全結束。第三個，新的學校周遭的安全設施，我要求再增加一項，一定要延伸到足以安全的人行通道，工程才可以算是完成，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：感謝院長，因為去年行人傷亡人數兒少的部分已經有下降了，後續你們還是要持續努力，給孩子一個安全的路，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會注意最後的調整，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、內政部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第8位王義川委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後繼續進行質詢，謝謝。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_st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主委好"},{"start":36.532,"end":63.688,"text":"气候变迁因应法已经迈入即将迈入十年它之前是温室气体减量及管理办法针对原住民的部分在第五条他有说就是为推动自然碳会政府应与原住民族共同推动及管理原住民族地区的自然碳会该区域内所增碳会之相关权益应与原住民族共享"},{"start":64.321,"end":85.435,"text":"涉及原住民族土地開發利用限制英語原住民族諮商並取得同意那我們現在看到川普政府已經退出巴黎協定也就是說他原本的國家對美國政府對國家的一個所謂的可能是從30億美金的一個"},{"start":87.216,"end":111.067,"text":"支出呢他直接Cut down也就是說我們政府會不會因為這樣也對我們未來的這個發展呢做一些減緩或者說有一些其他的想法院長你可以回答嗎其他的想法也就是說美國他Cut down了他對這個方面的一個支出跟支持那我們政府是不是也會受到影響"},{"start":112.153,"end":124.867,"text":"我覺得共同維護一個乾淨可以永續的地球到底是這一代人類共同的可是當你付出很多沒有實際的實質回報的時候你會不會想要減緩這方面的支出"},{"start":125.595,"end":153.278,"text":"我們照原有的步驟繼續向前進OK那我想先知道原民會主委的想法就是說我們針對創造就業機會我知道在環境部這邊他有想要培育人才綠領人才那他說他要預計在北中南一年要大概今年要訓練3500人那3500人裡面我不知道環境部有沒有跟會會去討論說如果按照人口比例我們原住民"},{"start":153.758,"end":173.316,"text":"裡面受教受訓練的一些專業人才是不是應該至少要70名到105名之間那你這個人才的這個培訓計畫裡面你有沒有被知會好謝謝委員我想這個人才的培育有關這個岩箱這個碳會的問題我們這邊有已經也跟我們自己的族人"},{"start":173.837,"end":197.667,"text":"做超過10場以上的說明會我們也會繼續來辦那比如說我是一個鄉長我要到園民會去拜託是到縣政府去說我以後要做這方面的產業那我是要跟哪一個單位來說明因為我沒有看到專責單位園民會的專責單位在哪裡我們在經建處那我知道我們現在原住民的一個Town會的規模大概是多少嗎"},{"start":198.837,"end":204.204,"text":"我們現在就是希望說趕快因為部落都還不清楚這個事情我知道 所以因為已經10年要即將"},{"start":205.81,"end":230.477,"text":"這個頒布法令要十年了可是我每次一問就是說還沒有一個一致性還不知道該怎麼弄那我剛剛又查了一些資料其實至於碳盤炒到現在還沒有一致的規定所以環境部長你這邊也在三腦筋他希望至少在今年可以成立新的一個所謂碳盤炒基準然後每三年更新一次那這個部分你聯名會這邊有備資會嗎"},{"start":232.017,"end":239.838,"text":"有 我們在一夜我們已經成立淨碳的這個永續發展這個小組那我們也送出這個原住民"},{"start":240.492,"end":262.146,"text":"足經濟永續發展計畫的草案我們希望這個推出去之後我們研擬之後這個草案我們會繼續來做之前在屏東縣當過處長是也長期在屏東縣那我想知道說如果就屏東縣那個碳的規模我們原鄉的大概可以在利益上面你覺得可以分配到多少資源"},{"start":263.141,"end":283.816,"text":"現在要精算還不曉得但是這個有一個重點這個不影響到我們的淨化補償就是你在淨化補償一樣可以做這樣的東西我是想幫園民會爭取資源所以我才會這樣算那你這樣算的話是不是因為有一個叫做管理基金就是衛生氣體管理基金那以後這個部分"},{"start":284.807,"end":313.735,"text":"你在盤查盤算的時候在整個碳會的一個機制裡面你至少要知道說有多少基金會到中央這邊來啊你以後要去你要去分配的這些資源要到哪裡去啊所以這個部分你是不是應該先先去了解我現在大概有看到農業部財政部所俠所俠台灣吉寶結算所針對原香碳會或是企業投入ESG已經有建立了相關的平台建制了那其實ESG最被人過病的是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":315.903,"end":332.732,"text":"大部分就是他的透明度還有他的票率也就是說其實他並沒有做出相當的投資可是他卻寫了這樣子的一個計畫出來還有他的透明度他認為他應該是多少可是我們一般的人無從得知他的計算結果"},{"start":333.732,"end":351.144,"text":"所以就簡單來講我希望主委你自己應該要很清楚去了解他們在做這些所謂的試算跟原先的這些ESG的計畫裡面我覺得你應該要主導來掌握 可以嗎可以 我非常感謝委員這樣重要的提醒 透明度"},{"start":351.724,"end":377.507,"text":"以及他整個是算的方式我想園民會一定是跟大家關係最密切的園民會也可以同時請環境部來支援他做很多這樣的工作對我剛才講的溫室氣體的管理基金所以我希望他的用途上面能夠明定一些方向因為之前的法律裡面並沒有針對這個法案做修正或者是增加所以我在第33條裡面今年提了一個修正案也就是說"},{"start":378.027,"end":406.064,"text":"第33條第13款希望在補助及獎勵事業與原住民地區推動自然資源與生態多樣性的維護教育及宣導事項這些辦法是由中央跟原民會去訂定的這是之前是沒有的所以希望主委能夠先了解這方面的一個情境跟我們立法的一個想法好不好好然後最後就是說我希望請教卓仁泰院長說原住民地區的自然攤會"},{"start":407.028,"end":412.675,"text":"又或是與企業合作一同推動ESG方面我們原住民委員會做了哪些建設"},{"start":414.997,"end":439.217,"text":"剛剛主委有說明過他們辦了10場的說明會有300多人來參加我發現陸續還會再舉辦而且剛剛所提到成立一個淨零永續的發展推動小組在這個小組裡面會擬定各項的一個工作的要項同時原住民經濟永續發展的發展計畫115年到118年他們也會陸續的提出我想針對原住民族"},{"start":439.797,"end":447.203,"text":"在台灣很多好山還是好水的地方我們既然希望他維持就應該有能力讓他自己能夠維持所以提供給他更多的這樣的資源"},{"start":448.203,"end":470.504,"text":"我希望有一個APP,比如說我是一個一般民眾,我想知道說我對自然攤位的貢獻,比如說我身處在屏東縣,我就會知道說屏東縣的自然攤位的資源是多少,那如果我是一個鄉長,我要知道說我這個鄉可以掌握的資源是多少,我覺得至少在以後在這個資訊的一個透明度要讓大家知道,才會知道說我作為一個個人,作為一個"},{"start":471.505,"end":480.633,"text":"一廂之長我能夠做的努力在哪裡可以嗎謝謝 再次謝謝委員的提醒這個非常重要第二個議題就是說針對我在114年4月10號收到園民會的公文首先先謝謝園民會願意補助70萬可是他們實際的需求是92萬1600元那我想知道說你們的難處在哪裡"},{"start":496.088,"end":516.367,"text":"納瑪下區公所要協助區公所的蒸化編的工作我跟委員報告這個機會不多啦是不多但是就是說不管是哪一個不是多不多的問題因為他延宕了很久他如果有需要我們都會核實來協助就是說這個"},{"start":518.869,"end":533.817,"text":"那麼下這個部分這個早在去年應該是吳立豪委他就有提出來那我們每一年光是平均補助就超過了525萬都有協助各鄉的困境"},{"start":534.537,"end":561.549,"text":"那當然就是那個時候孔賢傑七長他來他也要我們來協助那我們想說我們也很快的就是說他要的經費很快就給他補充短缺的22萬要公務員去承擔嗎不是不是不是我想我有跟他講好但如果說還是不夠我們還是願意來協助啊所以就針對這個問題原鄉公所所謂的原住民鄉公所在振化邊的保留地所謂的私有的負帳啊分割經費啊"},{"start":562.689,"end":581.695,"text":"這些部分你們有沒有做每年的一個說經費預算的一些編列不然每年如果遇到這些問題你們要怎麼去哪裡找錢我每一年有編這樣的在圖管處都有編這樣的經費類似有公所提出來可是你還是沒有達到他們要的九十二萬一千你說你只核定了七十萬給他"},{"start":582.728,"end":607.603,"text":"其實我跟委員講,他講92萬,可是我願意協助他這樣,他已經應該是,他跟我講說可以,如果真的不夠,有什麼關係,我還是會再協助他,因為各鄉都會遇到這個問題,這是剛好是納馬下來文,我們來幫忙這樣,好,第二個就是,第三個就是我們國立原住民博物館這個進度啊,我再追蹤一下,我想知道他現在的用地取得有沒有問題,"},{"start":608.444,"end":624.246,"text":"郵遞期的沒有問題了我跟委員報告現在我們的籌備處也已經成立了那現在籌備處未來會在高雄市政府的隔壁那現在正在做裝潢現在也正在做一些這個內部設施的一個整理那目前人"},{"start":625.054,"end":642.12,"text":"人是在暫屆文化延期的辦公處所那很快我們的土地都已經起的我們很快現在在下半年度我們就會先推出一個驗景館驗景館就會推出來以後他們裡面的工作人員是不是已經在原住民特考裡面的"},{"start":643.3,"end":658.049,"text":"名額裡面在招生或者說也在訓練了沒有辦法一下子就補齊啦至少目前的人力已經有到二分之一了那興建進度呢 什麼時候可以動圖啊籌備處沒有想說要怎麼樣的大興頭目因為畢竟它是一個籌備處而已"},{"start":667.393,"end":691.241,"text":"那等到就是說縣警管如果到一個就是說要動工那個時候我們再來跟外界來做說明籌備書我想其實是主要是行政工作啦還有一些作業的一個沒有必要去做完工的時間大概是什麼時候大概一年半之內那個縣警管就會是啦我說整個國立原住民博物館大概什麼時候可以蓋好"},{"start":692.236,"end":709.345,"text":"全部喔 全部沒有那麼快 全部至少你至少因為這個是14公頃的土地很多人想要去那邊工作可是他不知道說到底是什麼時候會遙遙無期啊萬一他想應徵可是他覺得說這個可能我到老都還沒有看到我想知道到底什麼時候可以往工啟用啊"},{"start":709.625,"end":725.815,"text":"我們當然越想越快越好但是這個啟程從一百一十三年到一百二十年那當然這個我們希望能夠加速蓋一個博物館面積又那麼大而且這個計畫是逐年來編列不是說一次就到位"},{"start":726.055,"end":743.607,"text":"沒有辦法確定一個時間表如果今年已經40歲了我想好好發揮我的對原住民文化的一個專才結果我60歲了要退休了這個博物館還沒有蓋好有些人有生涯規劃嘛所以你至少要讓我們原住民一些專業人才知道說我有沒有機會去那裡上班"},{"start":744.227,"end":766.373,"text":"六年到七年我想我們想就讓他營運就能夠也就是說三十歲的人左右可以去想這些事情是吧本來這個很多的這個工程的施作是一定要時間的嘛我們進入下一個主題就是說其實常常看到原住民保留地長期受到一些擔保啊或者是設定啊 借名登記這個部分"},{"start":767.313,"end":782.915,"text":"我知道之前的我們的圖管處的處長也是現在副主委在這部分他有一些了解那他說他會去盤查去盤點我們全國原住民保留地到底有多少比例是被屆民登記被設定的你們現在有報告書可以出來了嗎"},{"start":784.002,"end":812.948,"text":"我跟委員報告所以我們為什麼要提出原住民保留地就是說它的條例的一個修正因為我們不希望這樣的事情一直在發生可是你要掌握然後掌握以後要如何去解決然後如何去預防現在我們要發展原住民的經濟可是我們的土地常常是林業用地 農牧用地國土保安用地可是我們要去如何提高我們或者是說讓我們供股銀行去成"},{"start":813.528,"end":827.775,"text":"去承作他的貸款這個部分你們做了哪些努力目前就是說我們公股八大銀行他們也有提出來他們更希望就是說是不是有這個"},{"start":828.915,"end":849.973,"text":"有這個辦理這個個人保證業務的一些這個這個那個從小企業是不是也來協助但是我們現在一直在想這個八大公股銀行如果可以幫我們做那是最好那我們目前也在研擬這個原住民保留地貸款信用的保證草案那我們希望今年會完成嗎今年會完成嗎"},{"start":850.836,"end":876.289,"text":"我們一直在跟這個八大公股這個銀行希望要嘛就大家看是哪幾家可以先做但是他們也提出一些修正計畫我們願意再補一直在 我們現在還在很快 已經在後期的討論了我知道現在內政部有委託不動產估價施工會進行原住民保留地的估價方式的探討那報告書出來了嗎"},{"start":877.731,"end":901.37,"text":"目前還沒有我們尊重還是希望我們動作還是能夠快一點因為很多人都是嗷嗷待哺希望他的土地有價值而不是永遠都在政府在想在想辦法可是辦法一籌莫展最後就是說關於我們巡山園也就是說我們的高山巷島協作園這個部分其實每次天災的時候或者是需要"},{"start":902.47,"end":923.979,"text":"像玉山這個步道需要有人去管理的時候或者是說有些人發生山難需要去救助的時候其實都是這些人在工作那我想知道說到底有沒有對他們一些待遇的一些保障或者說至少讓他們在投保的時候商業保險能夠不要因為他的工作性質是危險的而不拒保"},{"start":924.719,"end":938.324,"text":"所以希望主委這邊把高山協作園祥島這邊納入一個高危險也就是說雖然是高風險可是是政府協助的一個工作項目好我們會特別要求我們的這個救護員好謝謝盧縣議委的資訊謝謝主委長原民會的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時6分）主席，有請院長跟原民會主委。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、原民會備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：院長好、主委好。氣候變遷因應法即將邁入10年，它之前是溫室氣體減量及管理法，針對原住民部分，在第五條是說「為推動自然碳匯，政府應與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳匯，該區域內新增碳匯之相關權益應與原住民族共享，涉及原住民族土地開發、利用或限制，應與原住民族諮商，並取得其同意。」","我們現在看到川普政府已經退出巴黎協定，原本美國政府對國家可能是30億美金的支出，他直接cut down。我們政府會不會因為這樣，也對我們未來的發展做一些減緩或者有一些其他的想法，院長可以回答嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：其他的想法？"],["盧委員縣一：也就是美國cut down了他對這方面的支出跟支持，那我們政府是不是也會受到影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得共同維護一個乾淨跟永續的地球，到底是這一代人類共同的責任。"],["盧委員縣一：不是，當你付出很多，可是沒有實質回報的時候，你會不會想要減緩這方面的支出？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們照原有的步驟繼續向前進。"],["盧委員縣一：那我想先知道原民會主委的想法，這次針對創造就業機會，我知道在環境部這邊他有想要培育人才、綠領人才，他說預計在北、中、南大概今年要訓練3,500人。那3,500人裡面，我不知道環境部有沒有跟貴會討論過，如果按照人口比例，我們原住民裡面受訓練的一些專業人才是不是應該至少要70名到105名之間，這個人才培訓計畫裡面，你有沒有被知會？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員，我想人才的培育，有關原鄉碳匯的問題，我們這邊也已經跟自己的族人做超過10場以上的說明會，我們也會繼續辦……"],["盧委員縣一：OK，比如我是一個鄉長，要到原民會拜託或到縣政府去說我以後要做這方面的產業，那我是要跟哪一個單位說明？因為我沒有看到專責單位，原民會的專責單位在哪裡？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們在經濟處。"],["盧委員縣一：經濟處？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：你知道現在我們原住民碳匯的規模大概是多少嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們現在還沒有……我們現在就是希望趕快……因為部落都還不清楚這個事情嘛！"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，因為法令已經頒布10年了，可是我每次一問，就說還沒有一致性、不知道該怎麼弄。我剛剛又查了一些資料，其實碳盤查到現在還沒有一致的規定，所以環境部長也在傷腦筋，他希望至少在今年可以成立一個新的碳盤查基準，然後每3年更新一次。這個部分原民會這邊有被知會嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們在1月已經成立淨零永續發展小組，也送出原住民族經濟永續發展計畫的草案，希望推出去之後、我們研擬之後，這個草案能夠繼續來做。"],["盧委員縣一：主委，因為你之前在屏東縣當過處長……"],["曾主任委員智勇：是！"],["盧委員縣一：你也長期在屏東縣，我想知道如果就屏東縣的碳規模來講，你覺得我們原鄉在利益上面大概可以分配到多少資源？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在要精算，還不曉得，但是這有一個重點，這不影響到我們的禁伐補償，就是禁伐補償一樣可以做這樣的東西。"],["盧委員縣一：我是想幫原民會爭取資源，所以才會這樣算。這樣算的話，因為有一個溫室氣體管理基金，以後這個部分在盤查、盤算的時候，在整個碳匯機制裡面，至少要知道有多少基金會到中央這邊來、以後分配的資源要到哪裡去啊！所以這個部分你是不是要先去瞭解？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會！"],["盧委員縣一：我現在大概有看到農業部、財政部所轄臺灣集保結算所，針對原鄉碳匯或是企業投入ESG，進行了相關平台的建置。其實ESG最被人詬病的是什麼？你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我不曉得。"],["盧委員縣一：大部分就是它的透明度和漂綠，比如說它其實並沒有做出相當的投資，可是卻寫了這樣的計畫出來；還有它的透明度，它認為它應該是多少，可是我們一般人無從得知它的計算方式。所以簡單來講，我希望主委自己應該要很清楚去瞭解，他們在做這些所謂的試算，還有和原鄉有關的ESG計畫裡面，我覺得你應該要主導和掌握，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["卓院長榮泰：我非常感謝委員這樣重要的提醒：透明度以及它的試算方式。我想原民會一定是跟大家關係最密切的……"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：原民會也可以同時請環境部來支援它，做很多這樣的工作。"],["盧委員縣一：針對我剛才講的溫室氣體管理基金，我希望它在用途上面能夠明定一些方向，因為之前修正氣候變遷因應法，並沒有針對這個部分進行修正或增訂，所以我今年提了一個修正案，就是針對第三十三條第一項第十三款，希望修正為「補助及獎勵事業於原住民族地區，推動自然資源與生態多樣性之維護、教育及宣導事項。」而且相關辦法是由中央跟原民會去訂定的。這些規定之前是沒有的，所以希望主委能夠先瞭解這方面的情境和我們立法的想法，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：最後，我希望請教卓榮泰院長的是，原住民族地區的自然碳匯，又或是與企業合作一同推動ESG方面，我們原住民族委員會做了哪些建樹？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛主委有說明過，他們辦了10場說明會，有三百多人來參加，陸續還會再舉辦，而且剛剛所提到的成立一個淨零永續發展推動小組，在這個小組裡面會擬定各個工作要項，同時，原住民族經濟永續發展計畫（115年-118年）他們也會陸續提出。我想，針對原住民族在臺灣很多好山好水的地方，我們既然希望它維持，就應該有能力讓它自己能夠維持，所以提供給它更多的資源。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。我希望有一個app，比如說我是一個一般民眾，我想知道我對自然碳匯的貢獻，譬如說我身處在屏東縣，我就會知道屏東縣自然碳匯的資源是多少，如果我是一個鄉長，我要知道我這個鄉可以掌握的資源是多少。我覺得以後至少資訊的透明度要讓大家知道，大家才會知道自己做為一個個人、做為一鄉之長，能夠做的努力在哪裡？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。再次謝謝委員的提醒，這個非常重要，我們會往這個方向走。"],["盧委員縣一：接下來的議題是針對我在114年4月10日收到的原民會公文。首先感謝原民會願意補助70萬元，可是他們實際的需求是92萬1,600元，我想知道你們的難處在哪裡？那瑪夏。"],["曾主任委員智勇：你講的是……"],["盧委員縣一：那瑪夏區公所。"],["曾主任委員智勇：要協助對區公所增劃編的那個工作？"],["盧委員縣一：保留地增劃編的部分。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，這個經費不多啦！但是不管是哪一個……"],["盧委員縣一：不是多不多的問題，因為它延宕了很久。"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果它有需要，我們都會覈實來協助，那瑪夏這個部分早在去年，應該是伍麗華委員就有提出來，我們每一年光是平均補助就超過了525萬，都有協助各鄉的困境，當然那個時候孔賢傑區長來，他也要我們來協助，他要的這個經費，我們很快就給他補足了……"],["盧委員縣一：這短缺的22萬要公務員去承擔嗎？還是誰？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，我有跟他講好，當然如果還是不夠，我們還是願意來協助。"],["盧委員縣一：好，所以就針對這個問題，所有的原住民鄉公所增劃編的保留地，所謂私有的複丈、分割經費，這些部分你們有沒有做每一年經費預算的一些編列？不然每年如果遇到這些問題，你們要怎麼做？去哪裡找錢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我每一年都有編這樣的經費，在土管處都有編這樣的經費，列示有公所提出來、有它的困難……"],["盧委員縣一：可是你還是沒有達到他們要的92萬1,000元，你只核定了70萬給他們。"],["曾主任委員智勇：其實我跟委員講，他講92萬，可是我願意協助他這樣，他跟我講是可以的，如果真的不夠，有什麼困難，我還是會再協助他們……"],["盧委員縣一：因為各鄉都會遇到這個問題，這次剛好是那瑪夏來文，我們來幫忙。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：第三個就是國立原住民博物館的進度，我再追蹤一下，我想知道它現在的用地取得有沒有問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：用地取得沒有問題了。我跟委員報告，現在我們的籌備處也已經成立了，籌備處未來會在高雄市政府的隔壁，現在正在做裝潢，也正在做一些內部設施的整理，目前人是暫借文化園區的辦公處所，我們的土地都已經取得，我們很快會在下半年度，我們就會先推出一個願景館，願景館就會推出來，已經在規劃了。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道以後裡面的工作人員是不是已經在原住民特考的名額裡面招生，或者有在訓練了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我跟委員講，沒有辦法一下子就補齊啦，但是至少目前的人力已經有到二分之一了，至少有8個人。"],["盧委員縣一：興建進度呢？大概什麼時候可以動土？"],["曾主任委員智勇：籌備處沒有想要怎麼樣的大興土木，因為畢竟它是一個籌備處而已，等到願景館如果要動工了，那個時候我們再來跟外界做說明。我想籌備處其實主要是行政工作，還有一些作業的一個處所，沒有必要去做……"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道完工的時間大概是什麼時候？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大概一年半之內，願景館就會弄好。"],["盧委員縣一：不是，我說整個國立原住民博物館大概什麼時候可以蓋好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：全部？"],["盧委員縣一：對。"],["曾主任委員智勇：全部沒有那麼快，因為這個是14公頃的土地，全部至少……"],["盧委員縣一：很多人想要去那邊工作，可是他不知道到底是什麼時候？可能會遙遙無期，萬一他想應徵，可是他覺得這個可能他到老都還沒有看到。我想知道到底什麼時候可以完工啟用？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們當然想越快越好，但是這個期程是從113年到120年，當然我們希望能夠加速，蓋一個博物館，面積又那麼大，而且這個計畫是逐年來編列，不是一次就到位。"],["盧委員縣一：沒有辦法確定一個時間表？如果我今年已經40歲了，我想好好發揮我對原住民文化的專才，結果到了我60歲了、要退休了，這個博物館還沒有蓋好？有些人有生涯規劃，所以你至少要讓我們原住民一些專業人才知道他有沒有機會去那裡上班啊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：6年到7年，我們想就能夠讓它營運。"],["盧委員縣一：也就是30歲左右的人可以去想這些事情，是吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：本來工程的施作是一定要時間的，因為預算沒有辦法一次到位。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我們進入下一個主題，其實常常看到原住民保留地長期受到一些擔保，或者是設定、借名登記這個部分，我知道之前土管處的處長，也是現在的副主委，在這部分，他有一些了解，他說會去盤查、去盤點我們全國原住民保留地到底有多少比例是被借名登記、被設定的，你們現在有報告書出來了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，所以我們為什麼要提出原住民保留地條例的修正，因為我們不希望這樣的事情一直在發生。"],["盧委員縣一：是啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們有……"],["盧委員縣一：可是你要掌握，掌握以後，你們要如何去解決、如何去預防？現在我們要發展原住民經濟，可是我們的土地常常是林業用地、農牧用地、國土保安用地，要如何提高公股銀行承作土地貸款的意願，你們做了哪些努力？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個部分，其實公股八大銀行有提出來希望辦理個人保證業務的一些中小企業是不是也可以來協助，但是我們也一直在思考，如果八大公股銀行可以幫我們做，那是最好，而我們目前也在研擬原住民保留地貸款信用的保證草案，希望很快的時間來……"],["盧委員縣一：今年會完成嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們一直在跟八大公股銀行討論，希望可以有幾家先做，但他們也提出一些修正計畫，我們願意再補，我想會很快，現在已經在後期的討論了。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道內政部有委託不動產估價師公會進行原住民保留地估價方式的探討，報告書出來了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前還沒有，我們尊重內政部……"],["盧委員縣一：希望動作能夠快一點，因為很多人都是嗷嗷待哺，希望他的土地有價值，而不是永遠都是政府在想辦法，可是辦法卻一直一籌莫展。","最後是關於巡山員的問題，也就是高山嚮導、協作員的部分，其實每次有天災發生，像玉山的步道，都需要有人去管理；或者是發生山難時，需要有人去救助，都是這些人在工作，所以我想知道，到底有沒有對他們待遇的一些保障，或者至少讓他們在投保商業保險的時候，能夠不要因為工作性質是危險的而被拒保，希望主委能夠把高山協作員、嚮導納入，雖然是高風險工作，可是卻是協助政府的一個工作項目。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們會特別要求就服員來協助有關勞工職災的保險及保護，我們會主動去協助他們。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及原民會的備詢。","登記第6位陳瑩委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","接下來請登記第7號林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143701_00012"}}},{"id":"160434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160434","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfcb33c81b5f4f3ff0e884b30dd814d675b01fba8380de0555eb7f182ac3ad9577988f7de2833a605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:50:11 - 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有請卓院長 內政部 劉部長還有陸委會邱主委麻煩請卓院長 內政部 陸委會備選時間暫停跟林委員報告我們就是以三位為主因為我們硬體設備就這樣如果要第四位部長上來我們再請一個部長先下去好嗎就以三位為主好 請咨詢好林委員好"},{"start":58.341,"end":77.074,"text":"院長好院長首先還是先在我進入我今天準備的主題之前先請教您一下因為籃板亂山亂洞這個總預算案那導致很多機關沒有辦法正常運作所以我們最擔心的就是說很多的這個"},{"start":78.675,"end":102.239,"text":"正常的這個預算沒辦法執行所以院長早上你有說要院裡頭要送出解凍案那我想同樣受到總預算案影響到的所謂的軍公教條新案不曉得政府這裡有什麼樣的措施我剛聽你回答翁小林委員有說今天早上你有說五月"},{"start":102.879,"end":128.965,"text":"五月就會入帳 等一下再請您說清楚一點然後就是立法院上個月有否決我們行政院提出的復議案那也想要請教一下院長再來有什麼樣的救濟措施好 謝謝顯然委員比較專心找上我們說過的話非常感謝 那解凍部分不論它是否已經達到解凍的條件或是它設了很多特殊的解凍條件包括"},{"start":130.026,"end":151.535,"text":"第一項就只要書面報告的這三項我們全部送出希望在最短的時間內能夠一律解凍讓行政部門好做事那麼至於軍公教同仁的加薪3%因為之前預算還有復義等等一直卡住對整個預算沒有辦法很順利的事情那現在已經到現在為止復義案也已經被被被被打掉了對所以"},{"start":152.635,"end":180.041,"text":"包括約用人員的業務費用約用人員是邊在業務費用也被刪除了但是我們也現在來不及辦追加預算所以我們會先與軍公教人員這3%加薪也跟約用人員的這些費用一併的先運資會在五月份兩項都出來同時因為我們不是承認這樣的審查預算是合法合憲的所以行政院也會針對"},{"start":181.485,"end":185.849,"text":"預算案跟財化法的修法同時我們會提出釋憲"},{"start":187.565,"end":191.748,"text":"投票制度的法制作業本來就是立法會員的分類工作"},{"start":217.865,"end":232.071,"text":"把立委本來就應該做而且可以做那必須事事討厭的事情訴諸於公投這很明顯就是特定的立委在偷懶 在怠惰 浪費國家資源"},{"start":232.831,"end":252.414,"text":"那再來民眾黨的公投主文的模糊不清這個其實也是像上週五民眾黨這個提案內容他就提出說菲律賓啊印尼等這個國家他可以直接在台灣投票選他們的總統那有些國家還可以直接線上投票"},{"start":254.456,"end":277.558,"text":"他們說身為這個科技島的台灣應該建制移轉投票等不在籍的這種投票制度那民眾黨對於這種移轉制度的定義到底是什麼或者是不是電子投票對他們來說也是一種移轉投票還是說是不是在境外設這個投票所對他們來說也是一種移轉投票"},{"start":278.539,"end":300.487,"text":"這個我們都不清楚所以想要請教院長跟部長就是說我們有可能無視於中國對台灣的民主的威脅就貿然的開放電子投票甚至是境外投票嗎那是否應該對所謂的境外敵對勢力介入我國的選舉有什麼樣的警覺院長"},{"start":301.34,"end":323.609,"text":"我做原則性的報告第一個國家現在的處境所謂的境外的電子投票等等我們認為絕不可行因為受控於人太多我們有一個境外的敵對勢力他會對投票的行為產生什麼結果是無法用民主來衡量的所以境外的電子行為是絕對我們現階段不宜採納不宜考慮"},{"start":324.769,"end":353.199,"text":"那國內的部分 移轉投票我們可以大家來討論但要有一個限制它必須一向是全國性的否則若是一個地方的選舉它都可以移轉投票那中選會地方選委會會忙死一個地方的選舉全國都在有移轉投票這個會造成很大的困擾再來全國性的我們也考量是否從對勢的公投能夠開始來著想怎麼做對人的部分我想那個複雜性更高我只做原則性的報告如果細節下行"},{"start":354.019,"end":354.98,"text":"我能理解這個院長的意思因為他們公投主文是說各項選舉公投都要落實這個一轉投票那也就是說只要一個村長補選"},{"start":373.959,"end":388.759,"text":"可能就要全國動員辦理移轉投票所以這個耗費太多的國家資源所以剛剛院長已經表示很清楚我們如果對勢的公投或許可以考慮來做這個所謂的移轉投票那我想"},{"start":390.816,"end":409.595,"text":"南白是很奇怪啦就是說他們又要凍結中選會的預算然後又要叫中選會來擴大辦理所謂的這個業務所以這個其實是不曉得他們在想什麼啦齁那這部分主委你要不要補充好 謝謝委員的關心齁"},{"start":410.407,"end":427.198,"text":"有關於不再急投票法制面的檢討其實行政部門一直都在進行長期以來主管機關內政部跟我們中選會的立場是一致的而且是一貫的"},{"start":428.318,"end":450.63,"text":"這一致跟一貫主要的精神剛剛院長已經提到了也就是我們認為不再提投票牽涉到的很多複雜的因素這些複雜的因素如果去影響到選務的穩定的話這個事情就非常非常嚴重了所以我們希望採取穩健的步驟也就是說從比較單純的對市的"},{"start":454.772,"end":470.802,"text":"這個公民投票來跨出第一步那麼累積一些實施經驗的結果之後再來進一步的對人的選舉是不是要採取採取何種方式再來做討論目前還是往這個方向在推進"},{"start":472.283,"end":487.899,"text":"至於具體的現在民眾黨所提出兩個公投案其中有一個跟不在籍有關係的因為他已經進入到立法院要交付公投的程序中選會是不宜表示意見"},{"start":488.379,"end":513.004,"text":"好 我最後要倡議的是說與其這個突襲題所謂的不在即投票我們是不是好好的再度在這一屆我們再來落實所謂的跨黨派都有共識的18歲公民權那這一屆本席也有提案要下修這個投票年齡到18歲所以是不是請院長我們在這一屆我們再來努力共同推動18歲公民權"},{"start":514.424,"end":527.031,"text":"我們之前曾經推動過但是到最後很可惜未來我們繼續推動這也是符合我們民法規定一個人都成年了那麼希望他能夠青年的熱血參與整個國家的大事盡將來進行好 謝謝院長"},{"start":531.837,"end":549.578,"text":"另外我想根據反滲透法第二條中國就是境外敵對勢力那可是我們面對無所不用其極要併吞台灣的中國我們的立法院卻是採取一種門戶洞開然後毫無防備的姿態"},{"start":551.199,"end":579.298,"text":"藍白兩黨持續聯手阻礙立委赴中納館的法案拒絕向國人交代那我想到底那麼多的立委往中國跑那麼多的立委的助理也往中國跑那他們到底幹了什麼勾當那甚至我們現在有發現有些立院的助理或有些單位的幕僚也有涉及中國的間諜那我想就針對事情來講"},{"start":581.72,"end":597.081,"text":"我也不覺得民眾黨跟國民黨對於這件事情有什麼樣積極的作為反而看到他們是有點幸災樂禍沒有要就事論事積極透過立法的方式來防堵成為所謂的國家的破口"},{"start":597.561,"end":619.016,"text":"所以想請教院長是說面對台灣的這個國際處境那你怎麼看待立法院面對國安這樣的一個消極的態度又有什麼樣的呼籲另外想要請教主委是說像陸委會不斷的強調說現行附中納管本來就有包括立法院在內喔只是立法院從來不提報"},{"start":619.756,"end":648.391,"text":"那面對立法院拒絕配合這種狀態梁副主委在上個禮拜三的記者會有表示那乾脆就在立法那個明文上去規定那立委就是必須要附中納管的對象那我想要請教說陸委會到底要提這樣的修法的版本有沒有計畫那到時候會不會也把立委的助理也納入規範先請主委回答再請院長回答"},{"start":650.344,"end":676.181,"text":"謝謝林委員這個寶貴的質詢讓我們有機會跟您報告就是我們現行法律就各院跟各部會只要涉密的人員就應該提報到主管機關內政部移民署來做申報許可那事實上我們除了大院之外其他的四院都有送涉密名單來"},{"start":678.784,"end":692.458,"text":"當然我們陸委會本於要落實兩岸條例的精神我們會持續的跟大院來溝通也感謝您今天的質詢今天大院很多重要的長官都在現場我們會持續來努力"},{"start":694.359,"end":712.044,"text":"至於你剛剛提到我們未來要如何的修法來規範從中央到地方包括我們未來的民選公職人員我們想他們賦入也要有必要的管理的制度我們要納管"},{"start":713.864,"end":734.466,"text":"公開化、透明化、向國民負責這是相當重要的而且我們整體社會都很在乎我們的民意代表去中國大陸做什麼樣的交流這個交流對台灣的安全有沒有傷害或是幫助他們都很想了解"},{"start":735.006,"end":761.037,"text":"所以未來包括您剛剛提到的除了立委之外立委助理因為他們的型態更加的複雜是不是納入規範我們也會一併來檢討那像今年2月本席有針對立法院拒絕副州納管的這件事情有行為給韓國瑜院長跟周外來副秘書長那周秘書長是怎麼回應他說立法院以及"},{"start":761.897,"end":788.398,"text":"立法委員似乎不是兩岸人民關係條例的第九條第四項所規範的涉密人員那周秘書長還說本院為合議制機關院長或委員是否從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務除非有明文規範否則須有本院的合議方式來決議之"},{"start":789.859,"end":813.671,"text":"換句話說一件事情是不是機密要由立委投票比人頭決定這其實相當荒謬啦同樣是合議制的機關從監察院到地方法院大家都全力配合附中納管的規範唯獨立法院提出這種理由來拒絕遵守所以我想這個部分也透過這個機會跟院長提醒韓院長提醒"},{"start":814.551,"end":841.978,"text":"好 那另外我認為行政院在下週都會對公務人員提出一套機制安全查的機制行政院已經決定在下週就會提出一個機制了我希望國家安全不只是行政院的工作立法院也應該從自律跟法治化來著手所以我鄭重的呼籲韓院長跟我們一起努力的起步往前走把國家安全放一個最優先的地位 謝謝"},{"start":843.258,"end":865.395,"text":"那另外本席再跟院長討論一下五一勞動節全面一致放假的議題這項議題我想我從上一屆立委的任期就不斷的倡議那如今經歷了三任的行政院長每一任的院長跟我探討也都不止一次勞動節全國一致性放假這個議題"},{"start":866.536,"end":886.891,"text":"那蘇院長的時代他是說有在研究要請主管機關那個全盤來考量那陳健院長第一次被我質詢的時候他說會來全面檢討第二次他質詢的時候就有鬆口說可以考慮全國一致性的放假當然卓院長您上任的時候那您是說會請人總繼續"},{"start":890.013,"end":917.804,"text":"跟地方政府做比較相對好的溝通那我想站在同樣的地點那再次面對我的相同質詢我想請教院長此時此刻五一勞動節已經快到了那您對這樣全國一致性的放假的態度是什麼那我想現在四月中那有不可能今年就來實施全國一致性的放假那如果還是有困難到底卡在哪裡那欠缺的共識到底要怎麼樣解決 院長"},{"start":918.905,"end":943.534,"text":"我們現在在討論過程當中不再拘泥於過去一百一十五天一百一十六天這樣的放假的日期的象限我們希望衡量整個國內經濟情勢的轉變跟勞資之間更和諧的關係其實我很願意這麼來說來做但是還是有一些包括勞方的意見我們都還要尊重資方的意見也要尊重今年或許有困難我們努力在明年"},{"start":944.209,"end":960.455,"text":"好 那我想繼續追問就是說明年2026的春節喔因為大年初四剛好碰到週五那其實春節只有放到年初三那如果初四這一天還要上班的話那隔天又要開始放假所以是不是如果要讓民眾"},{"start":970.657,"end":972.364,"text":"好 謝謝林議員的質詢謝謝左院長 各部會首長的備詢好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（9時50分）謝謝主席。有請卓院長、內政部劉部長，還有陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、內政部、陸委會備詢。","時間暫停。跟林委員報告，我們以三位為主，因為硬體設備只有這樣，如果要第四位部長上來，我們再請一個部長先下去，好嗎？先以三位為主。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["主席：請質詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長好。院長，首先進入我今天準備的主題之前，先請教您一下，因為藍白亂刪、亂凍總預算案，導致很多機關沒有辦法正常運作，所以我們最擔心的就是很多正常的預算沒辦法執行，所以院長早上你有說，院裡頭要送出解凍案，我想同樣受到總預算案影響到的軍公教調薪案，不曉得政府有什麼樣的措施？我剛剛聽您回答翁曉玲委員、今天早上有說：5月就會入帳。請您再說清楚一點。立法院上個月有否決行政院提出的覆議案，也想要請教一下院長，再來有什麼樣的救濟措施？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，顯然委員比較專心早上我們說過的話，非常感謝。解凍部分，不論它是否已經達到解凍的條件或它設了很多特殊的解凍條件，包括第一項只要書面報告的這3項，我們全部送出，希望在最短的時間內能夠一律解凍，讓行政部門好做事。至於軍公教同仁加薪3%，因為之前預算還有覆議等等一直卡住，對整個預算沒有辦法很順利地執行，到現在為止覆議案也已經被打掉了。"],["林委員宜瑾：否決。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，所以包括約用人員的業務費用，約用人員是編列在業務費用也被刪除了，現在也來不及辦追加預算，所以我們會先以軍公教人員3%加薪跟約用人員的費用也一併先勻支，會在5月份兩項都出來。因為我們不是承認這樣的審查預算是合法、合憲的，所以行政院也會針對預算案跟財劃法的修法，同時我們會提出釋憲。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝院長的答復。就進入我今天要跟您談的主題。首先，我想上個禮拜五民眾黨突襲式地提出公投案，其中有一項所謂的不在籍投票，這項提案其實很不負責任，而且模糊不清，之所以說它不負責任是說，投票制度的法制作業本來就是立法委員的分內工作，把立委本來就應該做而且可以做，必須討論的事情訴諸於公投，這很明顯就是特定的立委在偷懶、在怠惰，浪費國家資源。","再來，民眾黨的公投主文模糊不清，像上週五民眾黨這個提案內容提出說，菲律賓、印尼等國家，可以直接在臺灣投票選他們的總統，有些國家還可以直接線上投票，他們說身為科技島的臺灣，應該建置移轉投票等不在籍的投票制度。民眾黨對於這種移轉制度的定義到底是什麼？或者是不是電子投票，對他們來說也是一種移轉投票？還是是不是在境外設投票所，對他們來說也是一種移轉投票？這個我們都不清楚，所以想要請教院長跟部長，我們有可能無視於中國對臺灣民主的威脅，就貿然開放電子投票，甚至是境外投票嗎？是否應該對境外敵對勢力介入我國的選舉，有什麼樣的警覺？"],["卓院長榮泰：我做原則性的報告，國家現在的處境，所謂境外的電子投票等等，我們認為絕不可行，因為受控於人太多，有境外的敵對勢力，會對投票的行為產生什麼結果，是無法用民主來秤量的，所以境外的電子行為在現階段絕對不予採納、不予考慮。","國內的部分，移轉投票大家可以討論，但要有一個限制，必須是全國性的，否則若是地方選舉都可以移轉投票，中選會、地方選委會會忙死，一個地方的選舉，全國移轉投票，會造成很大的困擾。再來，全國性的部分也考量是否從對事的公投能夠開始著想該怎麼做，對人的部分，我想複雜性更高，我只做原則性的報告，細節現在請主委說明。"],["林委員宜瑾：沒關係，我能理解院長的意思，因為他們提的公投主文是說各項選舉。"],["卓院長榮泰：很難。"],["林委員宜瑾：公投都要落實移轉投票，也就是說，只要一個村長補選，可能就要全國動員辦理移轉投票，耗費太多的國家資源，剛剛院長已經表示得很清楚，如果對事的公投，或許可以考慮移轉投票。我想藍、白很奇怪，他們要凍結中選會的預算，又要中選會擴大辦理業務，其實不曉得他們在想什麼，這部分主委要不要補充？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的關心。有關於不在籍投票法制面的檢討，其實行政部門一直都在進行，長期以來主管機關內政部跟中選會的立場是一致的，而且是一貫的，這一致跟一貫，主要的精神，剛剛院長已經提到，也就是不在籍投票牽涉到很多複雜的因素，如果影響到選務的穩定，事情就非常非常嚴重，所以希望採取穩健的步驟，從比較單純對事的公民投票來跨出第一步，累積一些實施經驗的結果之後，再來進一步對人的選舉，是不是要採取？採取何種方式？再來做討論，目前還是往這個方向在推進。至於現在民眾黨所提出的兩個公投案，其中有一個跟不在籍投票有關，因為已經進入立法院交付公投的程序裡面，中選會是不宜表示意見。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我最後要倡議的是，與其突襲提不在籍投票，我們是不是好好地再度在這一屆，落實跨黨派都有共識的18歲公民權，這一屆本席也有提案要下修投票年齡到18歲，是不是請院長，我們在這一屆，再來努力共同推動18歲公民權？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們之前曾經推動過，但是到最後很可惜，未來繼續推動，這也是符合民法規定，一個人都成年了，希望青年能夠熱血參與整個國家大事，儘量來進行。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝院長。另外，我想根據反滲透法第二條，中國就是境外敵對勢力，我們面對無所不用其極要併吞臺灣的中國，立法院卻是採取門戶洞開、毫無防備的姿態。藍、白兩黨持續聯手阻礙立委赴中納管的法案，拒絕向國人交代，我想到底那麼多的立委往中國跑、那麼多的立委助理也往中國跑，他們到底幹了什麼勾當？甚至現在有發現有一些立院的助理或有一些單位的幕僚，也涉及中國的間諜案，我想就針對事情來講，我也不覺得民眾黨跟國民黨對於這件事情有什麼積極作為，反而看到他們是有點幸災樂禍，沒有要就事論事，積極透過立法的方式來防堵成為國家的破口，所以想請教院長，面對臺灣的國際處境，你怎麼看待立法院面對國安這樣的消極態度，又有什麼呼籲？","另外，想要請教主委，像陸委會不斷的強調現行赴中納管，本來就有包括立法院在內，只是立法院從來不提報，面對立法院拒絕配合這種狀態，梁副主委在上個禮拜三的記者會有表示乾脆就立法明文規定立委就是必須要赴中納管的對象。我想請教陸委會有沒有計畫要提修法的版本？到時候會不會把立委的助理也納入規範？先請主委回答，再請院長回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝林委員寶貴的質詢，讓我們有機會跟您報告。我們現行法律，各院跟各部會只要涉密的人員就應該提報到主管機關內政部移民署來做申報許可，事實上，我們除了大院之外，其他的四院都有送涉密名單來，陸委會本於要落實兩岸條例的精神，我們會持續跟大院溝通，也感謝您今天的質詢，今天大院很多重要的長官都在現場，我們會持續來努力。","至於您剛剛提到未來要如何修法來規範從中央到地方，包括未來的民選公職人員，他們赴陸也要有必要的管理制度，我們要納管，畢竟公開化、透明化，向國民負責，這是相當重要的，而且整體社會都很在乎我們的民意代表去中國大陸做什麼交流，這個交流對臺灣的安全有沒有傷害或是幫助，他們都很想了解，所以未來包括您剛剛提到的，除了立委之外，立委助理因為他們型態更加複雜，是不是納入規範，我們也會一併來檢討，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：像今年2月本席有針對立法院拒絕赴中納管的這件事情行文給韓國瑜院長跟周萬來秘書長，那周秘書長怎麼回應？他說：立法院以及立法委員似乎不是兩岸人民關係條例第九條第四項所規範的涉密人員。周秘書長還說：本院為合議制機關，院長或委員是否從事涉及國家安全、利益或機密業務，除非有明文規範，否則須由本院合議方式來決議之。換句話說，一件事情是不是機密要由立委投票，比人頭決定，這其實相當荒謬，同樣是合議制的機關，從監察院到地方法院，大家都全力配合赴中納管的規範，唯獨立法院提出這種理由拒絕遵守，這個部分也透過這個機會跟韓院長提醒。另外……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，行政院已經決定在下週對公務人員提出一套安全查核的機制，我希望國家安全不只是行政院的工作，立法院也應該從自律跟法制化來著手，所以我鄭重的呼籲韓院長跟我們一起努力的齊步往前走，把國家安全放在最優先的地位，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：另外，本席再跟院長討論一下，五一勞動節全面一致放假的議題，這項議題我從上一屆立委的任期就不斷倡議，如今經歷了三任的行政院長，每一任的院長跟我也都不只一次在探討勞動節全國一致性放假這個議題，蘇院長的時代說有在研究，要請主管機關全盤來考量。陳建仁院長第一次被我質詢的時候，他說會來全面檢討，第二次他質詢的時候就有鬆口說可以考慮全國一致性的放假。到了卓院長上任的時候，您是說會請人總繼續跟地方政府做相對好的溝通。站在同樣的地點，再次面對我的相同質詢，我想請教院長，此時此刻，五一勞動節已經快到了，那院長您對於全國一致性放假的態度是什麼？現在4月中，有沒有可能今年就實施全國一致性放假？如果還是有困難，到底卡在哪裡？欠缺的共識到底要怎麼樣解決？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在討論的過程當中，不再拘泥於過去115天、116天這樣的放假日期上限，我們希望衡量整個國內經濟情勢轉變跟勞資之間更和諧的關係，其實我很願意這麼做，但還是有一些包括勞方的意見我們都還要尊重，資方的意見也要尊重，今年或許有困難，我們努力在明年。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我想繼續追問，明（2026）年春節，因為大年初四剛好碰到週五，春節只有放到年初三，如果初四這一天還要上班的話，隔天又要開始放假。所以如果要讓民眾整個連假是一致性的話，是不是大年初四也要考慮一下放假……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們可以跟五一勞動節一併考慮，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長、謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請盧縣一委員質詢。林月琴委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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有請游院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢對不起 有請卓院長卓院長跟劉部長公務員好院長好本席在這邊首先我要"},{"start":28.621,"end":41.608,"text":"先感謝你對本席的質詢問政質詢還有我的所知相當的重視與關注我不是重視你的內容我是重視它影響國家的安全因為您的這個批評與指控"},{"start":44.089,"end":68.59,"text":"讓社會大眾很好奇到底本席質詢的議題我問了什麼我的內容是什麼所以呢就引來很多人來觀看我質詢的影片擴大我質詢的影響力那也讓民眾呢更加的了解什麼是政府造謠可以說是這個賽翁司馬焉知非福啦那麼我想請問院長"},{"start":70.683,"end":98.304,"text":"您是否有看過我在3月26號質詢農業部部長陳俊濟的影片我沒有現場看到但事後我了解整個狀況你沒有現場看到當然不會有時間現場看到但事後了解所有的狀況部長也有跟我做說明這個影片是短短5分鐘而且是在立法院的影音平台上面公開那麼全國的國人都可以看到"},{"start":99.383,"end":123.788,"text":"那在這次的質詢當中我問這個農業部陳俊記說到底現在台灣萬一發生緊急狀況的時候糧食的安全儲糧還有這個民生必需品的供應站的規劃是如何請問我從頭到尾我有講我要索取暫時糧食儲備地圖嗎你問他這個供應站儲備站"},{"start":129.744,"end":150.183,"text":"如何規劃這個就是希望部長能夠給你一個答覆只是我們部長很機靈是 部長是部長很機靈嗎部長在當場的時候我覺得他是誠實的他知道作為一個部長這樣的資訊本來就是公開是 院長您太狡猾"},{"start":151.035,"end":164.175,"text":"我告诉您您今天连个短短五分钟的咨询影片您都没有看过你就在夏香宣讲的时候乱造谣我什么时候我有说过地图这两个字"},{"start":165.619,"end":193.889,"text":"我真的是很 供應戰我告訴你那是現在法規裡面就有規定的這個是在國防手冊裡面清楚揭露我今天如果不是透過我翁小玲委員的質詢告訴大家說我們還有一個辦法是在規範民生必需品短缺時期的配售供應戰我告訴你這個部分很多的老百姓是不知道的"},{"start":194.409,"end":220.855,"text":"根本不知道這是寫在國防手冊裡面的而很遺憾的沒想到連院長你也不知道由此可見你民進黨政府所說的什麼全民防衛任性這根本都說假的你們連宣傳都不知道你連相關的法規相關的問題都不知道在哪裡我更遺憾的是你又說錯了我剛剛說我現場沒有看到事後當然有看到你沒有看過我執行的影片就信口開河你就造謠"},{"start":223.266,"end":239.103,"text":"今天从我是第三位质询委员从第一位委员第二位委员到我我相信之后还会有很多的委员会质疑卓院长您所领导的内阁你不仅仅是这个最会复义的内阁"},{"start":240.117,"end":267.491,"text":"我看現在也是最會造謠的內閣所以我今天很遺憾我原本以為院長您是看過我的質詢影片你才做這樣的發言但是沒有想到你連看都沒有看過我沒有說我沒有看過啊我說現場我說現場我說現場我沒有看到事後我都知道我哪有說我沒有看過事後我都知道你有看過我的影片嗎你沒有你剛剛說過了好不重要現在你已經說了"},{"start":270.112,"end":272.694,"text":"你在夏湘演講的時候你有說我為什麼要這個所值"},{"start":283.049,"end":298.873,"text":"我為什麼要請農業部部長提供給我有關於林森必需品這個配售站的相關的資訊你當時說是你想知道還是想讓誰知道我在這邊很嚴正的告訴院長我想讓誰知道"},{"start":305.675,"end":308.316,"text":"我想讓全國的老百姓知道在發生緊急危難的時候與民生有關的米、油、鹽等等這些重要的救命資訊應該讓所有的老百姓知道我們要到哪裡去領取而不是只有你民進黨的特權"},{"start":324.864,"end":348.309,"text":"這個階級全會才知道不是只有你民進黨領全黨政的這些人才知道我沒有戰略觀念是你沒有戰略觀念我剛已經說了這完全就是公開資訊你不要在那裡造謠你現在就是一心一意的想要把所有在野黨抹黑成中共同路人沒有想到真正的共諜就在你民進黨裡面啊"},{"start":349.349,"end":360.054,"text":"所以要說出來我以為你完全沒有戰略觀念我只有一句話全社會防衛就是要在適當的時候告訴人民什麼東西而不是在不適當的什麼時候讓政省知道我們有什麼事情請問院長您在3月29號我剛剛講了在民進黨的造勢場合當中你還對台下的民眾民進黨支持者很善情的說"},{"start":374.46,"end":402.671,"text":"未來翁曉琳委員所有的所資一律都要送行政院合訂之後才能夠送出您說過這句話吧前面還有一句話我說我沒有權利叫委員站在後面去但是我有權利讓委員的所資我這裡了解站在哪裡不重要重要的是說你是不是說過這句話有嘛 對不對 你有說嘛對不對 我的所資你都要看過啊然後呢 你要合訂才能送出 對吧是"},{"start":404.692,"end":429.491,"text":"請問院長你現在看過我的鎖子嗎沒有為什麼沒有因為都不重要因為都不重要是嗎是嗎都不重要那你還說這句話你就是造謠嘛你就是你從頭到尾都是空口說白話從你一開始質詢我的影片到你現在所說的你哪一句不是空口說白話你只是很善情的告訴所有支持者說歐小林委員的鎖子你都要看你的鎖子都在院裡面啊"},{"start":430.503,"end":449.099,"text":"都在院裡面都在院裡面院的哪邊你告訴我現在我所知的幾份都還沒有送到我這裡來沒有收到嗎那我告訴你了我到目前為止從你說了這句話之後我陸陸續續到上個禮拜我已經送給行政院19份了"},{"start":449.994,"end":457.375,"text":"沒有安全之餘的沒有安全之餘你都沒有安全紀律你這麼確定你根本連看到都沒有看過你做不到的事情你就不要亂講所以由此可見你現在就是已經證明了一件事情就是卓院長說的話不可信你就說空口說牌的話你只會喊口號告訴支持者說要相信我們民進黨政府"},{"start":477.319,"end":498.133,"text":"要相信我們所做的 結果呢 你完全沒有做啊而且你根本就造謠聲勢這是我看到 你在對我的這些攻擊理念然後呢 我得出來的結果你說要所有的所知 你要看過我連我送了多少份 我送給哪個部會我告訴你根本沒有看過好 接下來我要問另外一個問題有重要的才會到我這裡來所以 我現在送的都不重要"},{"start":505.758,"end":523.853,"text":"都沒有國家安全之餘所以我之前問的那個就是國家安全機密我告訴你你趕快去看看吧你接下來可能還會做很多的校鄉宣講趕快去看看好好讀一讀我的所知我真的覺得你平常大概也有在讀書不要再出這種問題我們就沒有那種顧慮我接下來我要問一個更實際的問題行政院院這個去年就已經說公教人員加薪3%114年的這個政府總運算我們已經也通過了"},{"start":535.469,"end":541.173,"text":"總統3月21號就公告了可以請您告訴我到底這筆錢什麼時候會入賬因為關於預算的問題我們之前還送過復議案在復議案之前我們當然不依舊預算內容的動機總統3月21號公告了嘛14年總預算案已經公告了現在已經快要4月底了快5月了那3%的這個薪水什麼時候發嘛3%的薪水我們5月份就會發"},{"start":565.996,"end":587.928,"text":"確定那太好了看起來我的質詢還是有效果的今天早上就決定了這個上個禮拜質詢之後不是我們今天早上就決定了強調這個軍公教很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以可以遲發薪水然後很多的什麼津貼啦考積啦這些都沒有發是因為三預算三到預算無法確定不要把責任擺到行政院身上來"},{"start":592.91,"end":619.802,"text":"委員始終要人民不相信政府委員始終要人民不相信政府但是你對法律解讀又是一知半解又要人民不相信政府是因為審預算三道讓預算沒有辦法順利起底請你不要質疑我不要質疑我一個法學教授我都過法學博士的這樣的一個專業我跟你比我比你懂得多好接下來我要問一下但是你不懂的地方更多那麼賴清德"},{"start":621.735,"end":634.313,"text":"那麼他在公布賴17條之後其實也引發國內很多的討論支持度還是不高的啊那麼將大陸認定為境外敵對勢力喔那麼我想這個可能要請陸委會主委請陸委會備詢"},{"start":643.414,"end":655.001,"text":"請教陸委會主委就是你知道目前到底我們有多少的台灣人在大陸工作這個就業居住生活"},{"start":656.195,"end":676.142,"text":"是,我們的估計有很多這種算法不過按照我們主計總署最近核算的大概有40萬的台商跟他們的眷屬在中國大陸就是比較長期常住在中國大陸的所以在那17條公布之後,政府有想到這群人的處境嗎?"},{"start":677.574,"end":695.517,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個十七條是基於我們自己國家安全社會安定是面對中共對於我們威脅非常嚴重不管是軍機艦擾台不管是成都二十二條經濟脅迫外交打壓"},{"start":696.158,"end":718.75,"text":"一連串的認知作戰、滲透分化這些複合性的施壓非常嚴重所以我們是在堅定的維護台海的現狀跟國人的幸福安全那我接下來要問的就是看這個情況兩岸敵對緊張的情勢將不斷升高我想問一下民進黨政府有沒有撤回台胞的計畫跟措施"},{"start":720.751,"end":743.243,"text":"委員你們應該知道日本因為因應台灣有事的情況計畫所以他們之前就有公布六天之內要撤離沖繩居民到九州集三口縣現在我們有四十多萬的台灣同胞在大陸算是長期的生活"},{"start":745.524,"end":754.852,"text":"那如果說兩岸的敵對情況不斷的升高而且真的發生什麼問題的話政府有沒有做撤回台胞計畫準備委員我們講這個17項的因應策略剛剛所說的都是在積極的維護台海現狀"},{"start":765.851,"end":792.701,"text":"我現在是問你們有沒有準備我們也有把兩岸的各種的風險透過我們海基會也好陸委會也好告訴我們在大陸生活的包括台商相關的人所以整體來講你們看起來你們還沒有做任何的準備那接下來我要再繼續請教就是因為最近大家討論很多的就是陸委會他建置你們建置的國人赴陸港澳動態登陸系統"},{"start":794.582,"end":812.081,"text":"而这套登录系统其实坦白说台湾的老百姓并不爱用我们现在到目前为止登录的比例大概也就只有2.45%这是你之前的所做的报告那我想问一请教主委就说到底我们登录这套系统之后"},{"start":814.09,"end":826.878,"text":"民進黨政府可以做什麼它的主要能夠發揮的效能是什麼是為了要幫助台灣同胞在大陸發生急難救助的時候你們可以幫得上忙是嗎"},{"start":828.104,"end":857.005,"text":"是 跟委員報告因為我們發現相當多的家屬來海基會 來陸委會報案說他們的家人失蹤了那同時呢也有很多人依照被法律限制他們的人身自由那這些呢都要我們知道個案再跟大陸去查核所以現在您剛說的這群人他們基本上都沒有登錄是都沒有登錄嗎 還他沒有登錄我現在想要質疑的就是"},{"start":858.477,"end":863.613,"text":"民進黨政府執政這些年其實與大陸方面的溝通管道是中斷的"},{"start":864.813,"end":866.694,"text":"官方的正式協商,由於他們有協商的前提,他們不願意跟我們持續的就既有的溝通聯繫機制,但是,用委員所說的,"},{"start":889.289,"end":905.06,"text":"但是登陸了之後你政府積極的作為在哪你到底有沒有能力可以去維護我們台高在大陸的權益我們就可以找到他家裡的相關的當事人當然也可以讓我們在大陸的這些旅遊人工作人員跟政府保持聯繫"},{"start":919.569,"end":929.018,"text":"如果有突發事件、意外事件、急難救助我們這個登錄系統可以連結政府的資源及時給...好,謝謝翁曉琳委員,謝謝卓院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（9時34分）院長好，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：院長好。本席在這邊首先要先感謝，你對本席的問政質詢還有我的索資相當地重視與關注，因為您的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不是重視您的索資內容，我是重視它影響國家的安全。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。因為您的批評與指控，讓社會大眾很好奇到底本席質詢的議題，我問了什麼，我的內容是什麼，所以引來很多人觀看我質詢的影片，擴大我質詢的影響力，也讓民眾更加了解什麼是政府造謠，可以說是塞翁失馬焉知非福。我想請問院長，您是否有看過我在3月26號質詢農業部部長陳駿季的影片？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有現場看到，但事後我了解整個狀況。"],["翁委員曉玲：你沒有現場看到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然不會有時間現場看到，但事後了解所有的狀況，部長也有跟我做說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。這個影片短短5分鐘，而且在立法院的影音平臺上面公開，全國的國人都可以看到。在這一次的質詢當中，我問農業部陳駿季說，到底現在臺灣萬一發生緊急狀況的時候，糧食的安全儲糧還有民生必需品供應站的規劃是如何？請問我從頭到尾，我有講我要索取戰時糧食儲備地圖嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你問他供應站、儲備站如何規劃，這個就是希望部長能夠給你一個答復，只是我們部長很機靈。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，是部長很機靈嗎？部長在當場的時候，我覺得他是誠實的，他知道作為一個部長，這樣的資訊本來就是公開的，是院長您太狡猾。我告訴您，您今天連個短短5分鐘的質詢影片都沒有看過，你就在下鄉宣講的時候亂造謠，我什麼時候有說過「地圖」這兩個字？我真的是很……"],["卓院長榮泰：供應站……"],["翁委員曉玲：供應站，我告訴你，那是現在法規裡面就有規定的……"],["卓院長榮泰：供應站、儲備站整個規劃，那我們要不要告訴你？"],["翁委員曉玲：這是在國防手冊裡面清楚揭露。今天如果不是透過我翁曉玲委員的質詢，告訴大家我們還有一個辦法是在規範民生必需品短缺時期的配送供應站，我告訴你，這個部分很多的老百姓是不知道的，根本不知道這是寫在國防手冊裡面的，而很遺憾的，沒想到連院長你也不知道，由此可見你民進黨政府所說的什麼全民防衛韌性，這根本就說假的。你們連宣傳都不知道，你連相關的法規、相關的問題都不知道在哪裡。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員你又說錯了……"],["翁委員曉玲：我更遺憾的是，我更遺憾的是，卓院長你沒有看過我質詢的影片……"],["卓院長榮泰：你又說錯了。我剛剛說我現場沒有看到，事後當然有看到。"],["翁委員曉玲：就信口開河，你就造謠，就造謠。今天我是第三位質詢的委員，從第一位委員、第二位委員到我，我相信之後還會有很多的委員質疑卓院長您所領導的內閣，你不僅僅是最會覆議的內閣，我看現在也是最會造謠的內閣，所以我今天很遺憾……"],["卓院長榮泰：只要委員不懂，就說我們造謠。"],["翁委員曉玲：我原本以為院長您是看過我的質詢影片，你才會有這樣的發言……"],["卓院長榮泰：只要委員不懂，你就說我們造謠，這就是常態。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是沒有想到，你連看都沒有看過，然後你就……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有說我沒有看過，我說我現場……"],["翁委員曉玲：你剛剛不是講說你沒有看過，你明明是說農業部部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我說「現場」，可以調帶子，我說現場我沒有看到，事後我都知道，我哪有說我沒有看過？"],["翁委員曉玲：事後都知道，你有看過我的影片嗎？你沒有，你剛剛說過了……"],["卓院長榮泰：我怎麼沒有？短片那麼多，我怎麼會沒有看到？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那個不重要，不重要，現在你已經說了……"],["卓院長榮泰：短片那麼多，你這個委員質詢的內容拿來做成的短片那麼多，大家都看到了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那麼卓院長，接下來我要講的這一點你應該不會否認，你在下鄉演講的時候，你有說我為什麼要這個索資，我為什麼要請農業部部長提供給我，有關於民生必需品配售站的相關資訊，你當時說我知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：是委員想知道，還是想讓誰知道。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我在這邊很嚴正地告訴院長我想讓誰知道，我想讓全國的老百姓知道，在發生緊急危難的時候，與民生有關的米、油、鹽等等這些重要的救命資訊，應該要讓所有的老百姓知道，我們要到哪裡去領取，而不是只有你民進黨的特權……"],["卓院長榮泰：不對、不對，委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：階級權貴才知道，不是只有你民進黨領取黨證的這些人才知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員不對，你完全沒有戰略觀念，委員完全沒有戰略的觀念……"],["翁委員曉玲：我沒有戰略觀念，是你沒有戰略觀念……"],["卓院長榮泰：你沒有戰略觀念。"],["翁委員曉玲：我剛剛已經說了，這完全就是公開資訊。"],["卓院長榮泰：全社會防衛內容就是……"],["翁委員曉玲：你不要再亂造謠！你現在就是一心一意地想要把所有在野黨抹黑成中共同路人，沒有想到真正的共諜就在你民進黨裡面啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要抓出來。委員，你完全沒有戰略觀念，我只有一句話，全社會防衛……"],["翁委員曉玲：你不要告訴我你沒有戰略……"],["卓院長榮泰：全社會防衛就是要在適當的時候告訴人民什麼東西……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們的能力不可能去做什麼戰略。"],["卓院長榮泰：而不是在不適當的時候讓對手知道我們有什麼事情。"],["翁委員曉玲：我接下來要問，請問院長，我剛剛講了，3月29號，您在民進黨的造勢場合當中，還對臺下的民眾、民進黨支持者很煽情地說，未來翁曉玲委員所有的索資一律都要送行政院核定之後才能夠送出，您說過這句話吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：我前面還有一句話，我說我沒有權力叫委員站在後面去，但是我有權力讓委員的索資我這裡了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：站在哪裡不重要，重要的是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：重要、很重要！"],["翁委員曉玲：重要的是你是不是說過這句話。"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過。"],["翁委員曉玲：有嘛！對不對？你有說嘛，對不對？我的索資你都要看過啊！然後你要核定才能送出，對吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問院長，您現在看過我的索資嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：為什麼沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為都不重要。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為都不重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？是嗎？都不重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：那你還說這句話，你就是造謠嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為還在秘書長室，都在秘書長室。"],["翁委員曉玲：你從頭到尾都在空口說白話，從你一開始質詢我的影片到你現在所說的，你哪一句不是空口說白話？你只是很煽情地告訴所有支持者說，翁曉玲委員的索資你都要看。"],["卓院長榮泰：你的索資都在院裡面啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：都在院裡面？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：都在院裡面，院裡的哪邊？你告訴我，現在我索資了幾份？"],["卓院長榮泰：還沒有送到我這裡來。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有收到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們認為不應該給的……"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你啦！到目前為止，從您說了這句話之後到上個禮拜五，我陸陸續續已經送給行政院19份了，不是行政院，是各部會……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有安全之虞的……"],["翁委員曉玲：各部會總共19份。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有安全之虞……"],["翁委員曉玲：已經有部會……你認為都沒有安全之虞？你這麼確定？你根本連看都沒有看過！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有安全之虞的，我們照常會給。"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，你做不到的事情就不要亂講！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是對委員的尊重，也希望委員自重。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以由此可見，你現在已經證明了一件事情，就是卓院長說的話不可信啦！你就是空口說白話，你只會喊口號，告訴支持者說，要相信我們民進黨政府、要相信我們所做的，結果呢？你完全沒有做啊！而且你根本就是造謠生事，這是我看到你在對我的這些攻擊裡面，我得出來的結果，你說我所有的索資你要看過，連我送了多少份、我送給哪個部會，我告訴你，你根本沒有看過！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們秘書長都知道，委員不用著急，都在秘書長那裡，有重要的才會到我這裡來。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要問另外一個問題，所以我現在送的都不重要？都不是機密？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有國家安全之虞。"],["翁委員曉玲：都沒有機密？所以我之前問的那個就是國家安全機密？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，你好好去看看嘛，你接下來可能還會做很多的下鄉宣講，趕快去看看，好好讀一讀我的索資，我真的覺得你平常大概也沒什麼在讀書、讀資料……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員只要不要再出這種問題，我們就沒有那種顧慮。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要問一個更實際的問題，行政院去年就已經說公教人員加薪3%，114年的政府總預算我們也已經通過了，總統在3月21號就公告了，可以請您告訴我，到底這筆錢什麼時候會入帳？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，因為關於預算的問題，我們之前還送過覆議案，在覆議案之前，我們當然不宜就預算內容來動支……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在講，總統在3月21號公告了嘛，114年總預算案已經公告了，現在已經快要4月底、快5月了，那3%的薪水什麼時候發？"],["卓院長榮泰：3%的薪水我們5月份就會發。"],["翁委員曉玲：確定？"],["卓院長榮泰：確定。"],["翁委員曉玲：那太好了！看起來我的質詢還是有效果的。"],["卓院長榮泰：早上就已經決定了，今天早上就決定了。"],["翁委員曉玲：我在上禮拜質詢之後……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們今天早上就決定了。"],["翁委員曉玲：強調軍公教很倒楣，因為我們的雇主是政府，所以可以遲發薪水，然後很多的津貼啦、考績啦，這些都沒有發。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，是因為刪預算刪到預算無法確定，不要把責任怪到行政院身上來。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝院長，現在確定5月1號會發，我希望之後不要忘記連遲延利息一起發……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員始終要人民不相信政府、委員始終要人民不相信政府，但是你對法律解讀又是一知半解，又要人民不相信政府，是因為審預算刪預算，刪到讓預算沒有辦法順利執行。"],["翁委員曉玲：我一知半解嗎？請你不要質疑我，不要質疑我一個法學教授、法學博士這樣的專業……"],["卓院長榮泰：經常啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：我跟你比，我比你懂得多。接下來我要問一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：也許啦！但是你不懂的地方更多。"],["翁委員曉玲：賴清德在公布賴17條之後，其實也引發國內很多的討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：支持度還是很高的。"],["翁委員曉玲：將大陸認定為境外敵對勢力。我想這個可能要請陸委會主委。"],["主席：請陸委會備詢。"],["翁委員曉玲：請教陸委會主委，你知道目前到底我們有多少臺灣人在大陸工作、就業、居住生活？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的估計有很多種算法，不過按照主計總處最近核算的，大概有40萬臺商跟他的眷屬在中國大陸長住。"],["翁委員曉玲：就是比較長期長住在中國大陸的？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以在賴17條公布之後，政府有想到這群人的處境嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，這個17條是基於我們自己國家安全、社會安定，面對中共對於我們威脅非常嚴重，不管是軍機艦擾臺、不管是懲獨22條、經濟脅迫、外交打壓，一連串的認知作戰、滲透分化，這些複合性的施壓非常嚴重。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，瞭解了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：所以我們是在堅定地維護臺海的現狀，跟國人的幸福安全。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝主委的說明。","我接下來要問的就是，看這個情況，兩岸敵對緊張的情勢將不斷升高，我想問一下，民進黨政府有沒有撤回臺胞的計畫跟措施？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：我想你們應該知道嘛，日本因為因應臺灣有事的情況計畫，所以他們之前就有公布六天之內要撤離整個沖繩的居民到九州及山口縣，現在我們有四十多萬臺灣同胞在大陸算是比較長期的生活，如果說兩岸的敵對情況不斷地升高，而且真的發生什麼問題的話，政府有沒有做撤回臺胞計畫準備？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，我們講這個17項的因應策略，剛剛所說的都是在積極地維護臺海現狀。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在是問你們有沒有準備撤回臺胞的計畫？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們也有把兩岸各種風險透過海基會也好、陸委會也好，告訴我們在大陸生活的，包括臺商相關的人。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，瞭解了，所以整體來講，看起來你們還沒有做任何的準備。","接下來我要再繼續請教，最近大家討論很多的就是陸委會建置的國人赴陸港澳動態登錄系統，而這套登錄系統其實坦白說，臺灣的老百姓並不愛用，現在到目前為止，登錄的比例大概也就只有2.45%，這是你之前所作的報告。我想請教主委的就是到底登錄這套系統之後，民進黨政府主要能夠發揮的效能是什麼？是為了要幫助臺灣同胞在大陸發生急難救助的時候，你們可以幫得上忙，是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，跟委員報告，因為我們發現相當多的家屬來海基會、來陸委會報案，說他們的家人失蹤了，同時也有很多人被法律限制他們的人身自由，這些都要我們知道個案再跟大陸去查核。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您剛剛說的這群人，他們基本上都沒有登錄？是都沒有登錄嗎？還是他們有登錄？我現在想要質疑的就是……"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果有登錄的話……"],["翁委員曉玲：民進黨政府執政這些年，其實與大陸方面的溝通管道是中斷的，海基會跟海協會還有在開會嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：就官方的正式協商……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們有對於這些事情進行交流嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：由於他們有協商的前提，他們不願意跟我們持續地就既有的溝通聯繫機制……"],["翁委員曉玲：是他們不願意，還是你們也沒辦法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是，就委員所說的……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我要強調的就是，登錄系統的建置我不反對，但是登錄了之後，你政府積極的作為在哪裡？你們到底有沒有能力可以去維護我們臺胞在大陸的權益？發生急難狀況的時候，有辦法……"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，如果有個案，他有登錄，我們就可以找到他家裡的相關當事人。"],["翁委員曉玲：你只是找親屬相關當事人，那何必要拜託政府？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然也可以讓這些在大陸旅遊的人、工作的人跟政府保持聯繫。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在登錄了之後，反而讓民眾很擔心是不是政府要鎖定大家去大陸的資訊。"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果有突發事件、意外事件、急難救助……"],["翁委員曉玲：真正有突發事件，你們也沒辦法救援，然後……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們這個登錄系統可以連結政府的資源，即時給……"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望你們可以再去多發揮急難救助的功能。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會不斷宣傳，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、陸委會的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第4位林宜瑾委員質詢，盧縣一委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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行政院"},{"start":76.418,"end":92.33,"text":"行政院整個部會立法院是不是要負責為人民把關審查我們的預算好看錢有沒有亂花有沒有花在刀口上該不該給是不是要多少立法院"},{"start":94.022,"end":117.624,"text":"不是都聽你的 你拿過來我們就馬上給跟你給孩子一樣 一定要問為什麼 是嗎對不對 跟誰去嘛 花什麼嘛 是不是你剛才有說嘛所以你拿行政院編訂預算 立法院審議預算 這是憲法所定的沒錯 所以跟我們人民在委託我問你的一樣的道理 這樣子的邏輯"},{"start":119.065,"end":141.121,"text":"所以我們就合理合法的就是要請我們各個部會這麼的簡單而已就是你們要來跟我們是要審查預算所以我們要的就是要問要說明所以呢我們就是要溝通才會知道要不要給嘛 是不是"},{"start":142.898,"end":168.585,"text":"小愛回答我說她要一百個人去做一件非常對她的公司我說踏一頓喔不要去解釋那個所以我們立法院要刪除的預算我們會跟她說我先凍結百分之七十妳吃到百分之三十的時候再跟我要啊我們立法院凍結是人民的錢嗎我可能跟她講妳吃到百分之三十的時候再回來跟我要"},{"start":169.465,"end":187.795,"text":"問你就是我們百分之三十因為問了我們不知道他做什麼所以給他七十對啊對不對你說的對嘛我們問了你們要吃牛排我給你七十趴了嘛你真的吃牛排回來跟我講我才吃跟你"},{"start":188.715,"end":217.15,"text":"在補嘛 在解凍嘛 這樣子那麼簡單的邏輯而已啊所以我們是 如果你覺得這樣我們現在全部我們立法院刪除的不是人民的費用所以你要在各個地方 你用立法我們立法院這邊的預算 你用行政院的身份到處去招搖 所以我們 我要敢問你"},{"start":218.533,"end":247.602,"text":"我們113個立委在8個部會裡面去審所有的預算全部各部會的預算你有每一個一個去看嗎我們要幫你把關我們希望這個預算劃在刀口上萬一他們出事情你敢對全國的人民發誓只要各個部會有爭議我行政院長全部負責敢不敢"},{"start":249.366,"end":277.423,"text":"你敢不敢嘛因為我們是幫你把關希望我們這個預算花在刀口上對不對不是我們要刪預算我們做任何事情我們就是因為你知道他們的預算我們省預算我在基層我們都有省的民間團體的預算都有起源目的執行我們要怎麼樣到效果但是我們這邊沒有"},{"start":278.664,"end":289.257,"text":"完全去改113年的計畫沒有任何的創意也沒有任何的改變就送過來了所以我們看到的都是三個都是吃喝玩樂的我們有2,806億的新增預算委員怎麼可以說我們是改113年的計畫呢"},{"start":298.168,"end":310.574,"text":"沒錯我看到的計畫是這樣改了都是13年的大部分都是改所以你要去看的你有沒有錢不看還是你聽說我們是真真的去看你有沒有去看全部夠不壞的預算所以真的院長"},{"start":320.919,"end":323.542,"text":"館長 你要記得才能為人民發聲 你記錯就發錯聲音啊院長 你知道為什麼我上次問你說你眼鏡有沒有我"},{"start":342.332,"end":367.964,"text":"的意思嗎我問你說你的眼睛沒有我的意思說什麼是你說目中無人你的心目中沒有百姓你要跟百姓交代不是回去跟家人交代所以我的意思是這樣所以現在我要請我們我們卓院長你把手摸在你的胸口上你感受一下它是冰的還是涼的溫的"},{"start":370.88,"end":383.248,"text":"問的表示你還有良心所以呢我們希望你要去不要說你都是聽別人說你要自己來去所以會不會經委員說113年有我們2,806億的薪政預算嗎"},{"start":388.331,"end":407.924,"text":"所以說我今天更失望的是說你總統賴總統把整個國家的部會交給你來去管理讓你要去溝通但是現在呢把我們台灣變成國際的消化還有我們的國安的問題還有我們賴總統的安危你有沒有考慮在我們的總統的身邊"},{"start":416.289,"end":419.151,"text":"這樣子你要去檢討啊不是要來去對應我們要的不是對應諮詢我們要的是有效果如何去把我們台灣的政策和國立民三黨要合作如何去把大家去融合這個才是我們要的行政院長"},{"start":437.782,"end":461.439,"text":"合作的前提是要把事實看清楚如果委員一直不懂我們2806一直在競爭預算那我沒有辦法跟這樣合作啊現在更失望的是你眼睛也看不到你心也感受不到我們有一句誠意我不知道怎麼講 你自己去體會好 所以說我接下來呢因為我真的接下來我要問你的我們在113年我們的"},{"start":463.427,"end":477.256,"text":"立法院已經通過三途通過新住民基本法到現在我還沒有看到我們的職責所以我們明確我們有行政院的職責是要籌備我們的新住民發展署但是到現在我還沒有看到一個字所以我們行政的部門現在如何怎麼去執行因為我要公文過去跟內政部"},{"start":494.108,"end":505.62,"text":"移民索要但是到现在为止我们看到的是这样会议记录是机密吗经费也是机密吗所以完全回我的公文是这样可以看一下公文写的是这样"},{"start":515.531,"end":540.236,"text":"所以說這個公文我們看到的就是說我在2月10號還有2月14號兩個發文進度在哪裡我沒有看到所以說我們部長可以回我一下說回復的態度還有回復這樣的問題是你指令的嗎所以完全我沒有看到說我們現在的進度在哪裡"},{"start":541.216,"end":561.257,"text":"報告委員我們到目前為止已經開過16次的會議裡面包括原則上開的整體的會議的時候是6次然後工作層級的會議是10次我們盤點出來包括內政部包括移民署包括新住民署還有相關的其他部會要跟著做改變的部分三次你們有用我的時間嗎"},{"start":562.398,"end":563.639,"text":"這個是移民署移民署內政部回我這樣所以你有看過嗎 你知道嗎我們按照全責的分配全責的分配這個是機密嗎"},{"start":576.428,"end":602.4,"text":"沒有經歷吧 你講的頭頭是道嘛所以大家都在開會 都在這樣但是呢 我們已經立法三讀通過了我們依法行政嘛 你說依法行政嘛但是我們沒有看到啊 對不對連說你說籌備新聞 你說籌備處沒有去執行 怎麼會籌備呢連快一年了 九個月了 一個籌備處啊 沒看到的東西"},{"start":604.281,"end":605.463,"text":"我們本來就有籌備處 籌備處等來有設立了嗎有設立了嗎 有成立了嗎 還是用說的籌備處本來就有了 是我們的常務制度"},{"start":619.338,"end":638.651,"text":"我們新住民基本法在立法院通過之後我們的吳唐安吳長次就已經是籌備處在做執行秘書的工作但是我新聞裡面沒有看到所以呢我希望我們現在要的就是我看我是要的就是說設立一個專責機構"},{"start":641.293,"end":656.032,"text":"是不是行政機構的法定的責任呢因為我們法律已經通過了是否就是在此向我們新住民向大家承諾三個月內三個月內我們內政部完成新住民發展圖的籌備規劃對外公開"},{"start":659.176,"end":663.699,"text":"透明的有進度的我們想要的就是明確初步的組織草案或者紮構的設計但是我現在都沒有看到所以我們院長今天也在這邊也要幫新住民解決的問題而法律已經通過了政府必須依法行政新住民在台灣已經落實已經生根希望我們就在這邊"},{"start":685.851,"end":688.052,"text":"不只是生活為了整個台灣參加社會還有說我們也是國家的重要的一份子我們是家人不是敵人也是因為這樣子的機關我們希望透過這樣子的可以為台灣"},{"start":704.243,"end":708.587,"text":"去做一個連結做個溝通關於權益 語言 教育還有經濟的發展就業法律的等等我們希望我們是學以致用我們要求的就是可以在三個月內真的 真正的去成立一個籌備處我們要求的是新住民發展署但是已經九個月了"},{"start":730.506,"end":742.014,"text":"從別處的開幕或者啟動都沒有我們也看不到你也沒有給我們所以呢你說你開會用什麼來開會用什麼部會來開會也是有限吧越開越不會就叫開會嗎對不對所以我們希望在"},{"start":751.4,"end":767.454,"text":"這一筆預算裡面我們也沒有看到114年也沒有看到所以我們希望你真正的去編列也真正的讓大家各個公務人員他有職責的工作關於這個工作你要編列預算讓他們去執行"},{"start":768.635,"end":790.046,"text":"你完全沒有編列又叫他們去做所以就看不到一個效果出來所以我們希望我們院長我們跟我們的部長我們兩位跟我們全國的新住民去承諾說我們是不是在三個月內這個籌備處正式啟動怎麼樣去執行我們再來共同來去努力好嗎報告委員"},{"start":796.169,"end":810.602,"text":"行政院現在經費的結局 籌備處成立是不會舉行盛大的開幕典禮的這個從來沒有過啦他說 上次那個內政部長說的他說他會在籌備處要去成立但是沒有公開 但是什麼時候成立啊要有一個日期 有一個承諾吧"},{"start":819.329,"end":825.672,"text":"有一個進度嘛,不然就是用講的啊,用講大家也會笑啊體育部的籌備處,妳也沒有參加過開幕典禮啊誰?體育部的籌備處也開始了,但是也沒有開幕典禮啊對啊沒有,是他說他會有開幕啊所以我們不管有沒有開幕,我要的是要有何時何日,哪一天"},{"start":843.622,"end":862.138,"text":"是這樣而已 我們院長可以跟大家承諾嗎委員只是看不到內政部同仁在這裡的努力對新住民的權益各種他們已經研究了很多沒有否定他的努力才會去問他做了什麼嘛才要教他編列預算嘛所以這個籌備數他沒有成立又沒有編列預算什麼叫做否認啊你才是否認大家的努力我問你啊 我們2014年到現在已經四個月了"},{"start":870.72,"end":885.567,"text":"所以大家 你說凍結預算所以大家在做什麼 吹冷氣吃便當嗎所以你否定大家的功勞啊對不對 大家都有在做事情所以我們要進度 要進度不是只是一個紙上糖冰好不好 我願意不要誣衊公務員好不好"},{"start":890.97,"end":899.575,"text":"我沒有忽略啊 我講的是說大家的功勞叫你不要否定大家的功勞要該給的一算 該要編的要編但是我們沒有看到所以我是要要你明確一個日期嘛"},{"start":909.628,"end":937.022,"text":"又做又做 每天都沒做 我這個月我也做有很多籌備署的委員在工作就到民國幾年也不知道就是因為了一件事情 是這樣嗎我們行政院的行政機構是這樣子嗎一件事情做到沒完沒了這樣子嗎沒有嘛 對不對 我們要明確的一個時間跟日期還有關於我們放棄國籍的部分我們也希望我們內政部長這一邊"},{"start":939.763,"end":959.648,"text":"因為新住民他們不管外配還是外配一致同仁要放棄國籍像我們要放棄國籍才能領身分證若非要放棄那個國籍你們要求的不是他們要求的放棄了才能領身分證不要到最後再來跟大家爽戰"},{"start":982.417,"end":987.939,"text":"我們要求公平平等一致同仁要求的是只有這樣子而已其他我們是很守本分的依法行政只要要求我們他進台灣一步我們就依法行政依政府的規定好 謝謝好 謝謝麥義貞委員子訊謝謝左院長 劉部長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":989.71,"end":991.257,"text":"接下來請翁曉林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":95,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時17分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：院長好。我有一個問題是代替民眾請教你的啦，如果你的孩子和你要10萬元去吃一頓牛排，你會馬上給他還是會詢問他？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會問他什麼事、多少人、去哪裡？"],["麥委員玉珍：很好。我再請教，如果是行政院，我們也會去問你一樣的道理，所以總預算也是一樣的。再請教你，行政院的職責是不是要負責編列預算及執行計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起……"],["麥委員玉珍：行政院整個部會，是嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：立法院是不是要負責為人民把關審查我們的預算？看錢有沒有亂花啊，有沒有花在刀口上，該不該給？要多少？立法院不是都聽你的，你拿過來我們就馬上給，就跟你給孩子一樣，一定要問為什麼嘛，對不對？跟誰去、花什麼嘛，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：你剛才有說嘛，所以你拿……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，行政院編訂預算，立法院審議預算，這是憲法所規定。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，所以跟人民委託我問你的是一樣的道理，這樣的邏輯，所以我們是合理合法請各部會說明，這麼簡單而已！因為我們要審查預算，所以我們要問、要說明、要溝通才能知道要不要給，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：但如果小孩回答說，他需要100個人去做一件對他來說非常……"],["麥委員玉珍：我說的是一頓飯，所以不用再解釋……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不會跟他說……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們立法院要刪除的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我不會跟他說先凍結70%，你吃到30%時再回來跟我要，我能跟他這樣講嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：我的時間有限，所以我就問你凍結的問題。立法院凍結的是人民的錢……"],["卓院長榮泰：我能跟他講，你吃到30%時再回來跟我要？"],["麥委員玉珍：之所以會有30%的問題，是因為就算問了，我們還是不知道他在做什麼，所以才給他70%！你說的對，我們問了，而你們說要去吃牛排，所以我給70%；等你真的吃了牛排回來跟我講，我再解凍，邏輯就是這麼簡單！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員會這樣開牛排店嗎？只做70%？"],["麥委員玉珍：你現在覺得立法院刪的不是人民的錢，所以你用行政院的身分到各個地方去造謠！我要問你，113個立委在八個委員會審所有預算，請問各部會的預算你有每個都去看嗎？所以我們要幫你把關，我們希望預算花在刀口上。萬一他們出事，你敢對全國人民發誓，只要各部會有爭議，我行政院長全部負責，敢不敢？你敢不敢？因為我們是幫你把關……"],["卓院長榮泰：負責什麼？"],["麥委員玉珍：希望預算花在刀口上，對不對？所以不是我們要刪預算！我們做任何事情……因為我們審預算，像我在基層，民間團體的預算我們都有審，都有起源、目的、執行、要達到怎麼樣的效果，但是這邊沒有！就把113年的計畫拿來改，沒有任何創意，也沒有任何改變就送過來了！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這樣說就錯了！"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們刪的都是吃喝玩樂的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有2,806億的新增預算，委員怎麼可以說我們是改113年的計畫呢？"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，我看到的計畫就是這樣，就是把113年的計畫拿來改，大部分都是改……"],["卓院長榮泰：顯然委員預算書沒有看完！委員，那2,806億的新增預算你可以說出任何一項嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你應該要看的，但你沒有全部看！還是你是聽說的？你有沒有去看？我們是認真在看！你有沒有去看全部各部會的預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我沒有全部看，你也沒有全部看！我只跟你講，你剛剛說我們抄113年的，這樣對公務人員不公平，我不接受！2,806億的新增預算委員知道哪一項嗎？不知道啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：院長，我們審預算是為人民發聲，我們是把關……"],["卓院長榮泰：你要記對才能為人民發聲，你記錯就發錯聲音了！"],["麥委員玉珍：院長，你知道我上次問你眼中有沒有我的意思嗎？我之所以問你眼中有沒有我的意思是：你目中無人！你心目中沒有百姓！你是要跟百姓交代，不是回去跟家人交代，我的意思是這樣。現在我要請卓院長把手放胸口上……"],["卓院長榮泰：我很多照片都這樣做。"],["麥委員玉珍：你感受一下是冰的還是涼的？"],["卓院長榮泰：溫的。"],["麥委員玉珍：溫的表示你還有良心。我希望你不要只聽別人說，你要自己去……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我不會聽委員說……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望你……"],["卓院長榮泰：113年我們2,806億的新增預算……"],["麥委員玉珍：說真的，我進入政壇，我當你是偶像，但我今天失望了……"],["卓院長榮泰：你避重就輕，這種答復沒有意義。"],["麥委員玉珍：賴總統把整個國家的部會交給你管理，讓你去溝通，但現在你卻把臺灣變成國際笑話，還有國安問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛林國成委員還說貴黨都很為臺灣著想……"],["麥委員玉珍：賴總統的安全你有沒有考慮？"],["卓院長榮泰：連我們的新增預算都搞不懂……"],["麥委員玉珍：現在有共諜在總統身邊，這種事你要檢討啊！不是來這裡對應質詢，我們要的是有效果，如何讓臺灣的政策可以……"],["卓院長榮泰：我在行政院院會中已經要求加強安全查核……"],["麥委員玉珍：如何去把我們臺灣的政策福國利民，三黨要合作，如何去把大家融合，這個才是我們要的行政院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：合作的前提是要把事實看清楚，如果委員一直不懂我們2,806億的新增預算，我沒有辦法這樣的合作……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望院長要看清楚，但我現在更失望的是你眼睛看不到，你心也感受不到，有一句成語我不知道怎麼講，你自己去體會。","接下來我要問你的是，我們立法院在113年已經三讀通過新住民基本法，但是到現在我還沒有看到我們的……"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部長不是答復你很多次了嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：我們行政院的職責是要籌備我們的新住民發展署，但是到現在連個影子都還沒看到！請問我們行政部門現在如何去執行？因為我發公文過去跟內政部、移民署要相關資料，但是到現在為止，我們看到的就是這樣，會議紀錄是機密嗎？經費也是機密嗎？回我的公文是這樣！院長可以看一下，公文寫的是這樣，我在2月10號及2月14號有兩個發文，進度在哪裡？我沒有看到，所以部長可以回我一下，回復的態度及這樣回復問題是你指示的嗎？我完全沒有看到我們現在的進度在哪裡？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們到目前為止已經開過16次的會議，包括原則性的整體會議是6次，工作層級會議是10次，我們盤點出來，包括內政部，包括移民署，包括新住民署，還有相關其他部會要跟著做改變的部分，現在……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你們回我的是這樣啊！回我的是這樣啊！"],["劉部長世芳：這個是移民署給你的公文。"],["麥委員玉珍：移民署、內政部回我這樣，所以你有看過嗎？你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們按照權責的分配來給委員公文。"],["麥委員玉珍：權責的分配，這個是機密嗎？沒有機密吧？你講得頭頭是道嘛，大家都在開會、都在這樣，但是我們已經立法三讀通過了，要依法行政嘛，你說依法行政，但是我們沒有看到啊，對不對？你說籌備的新聞，你說籌備處，沒有去執行怎麼會籌備呢？快一年了，已經9個月了，連個籌備處都還沒看一個影子！"],["劉部長世芳：我們本來就有籌備處，是籌備的會議……因為還沒有變成定案……"],["麥委員玉珍：籌備處本來有設立了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：而且行政院還沒有核定。"],["麥委員玉珍：有設立了嗎？有成立了嗎？還是用講的？"],["劉部長世芳：籌備處本來就有了，是我們常務次長……"],["麥委員玉珍：籌備處有了，所以呢？什麼時候成立我們新住民發展署？"],["劉部長世芳：新住民基本法在立法院通過之後，我們的吳堂安常次就已經在籌備處做執行秘書的工作，然後由移民署來召集其他單位……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我在新聞裡面沒有看到，所以我希望，我們現在要的就是設立一個專責機構，這是不是行政機關的法定責任呢？因為法律已經通過了，是否就在此向我們新住民、向大家承諾，三個月內，我們內政部完成新住民發展署的籌備規劃，對外公開透明的、有進度的，我們想要的就是明確的初步組織草案或者架構的設計，但是我現在都沒有看到，我們院長今天也在這邊，希望院長也要幫新住民解決這個問題，法律已經通過了，政府必須依法行政。新住民在臺灣已經落實、已經生根，我們在這邊不只是生活，為了整個臺灣，參加社會，我們也是國家重要的一分子，我們是家人，不是敵人，也是因為這樣的機關，我們希望透過這樣可以為臺灣去做一個連結，做個溝通，關於權益、語言、教育，還有經濟的發展、就業法律等等，我們希望我們是學以致用，我們要求的就是可以在三個月內真正地去成立一個籌備處，我們要求的是新住民發展署，但是已經9個月了，一個籌備處的開幕或者啟動都沒有，我們沒看到，你也沒有給我們，所以你說開會，用什麼來開會？什麼部會來開會？也是有限吧！越開越不會叫做開會嗎？所以我們希望在這一筆預算裡面，我們沒有看到預算，在114年的預算中沒有看到，所以我們希望你們要真正地去編列，也真正地讓各個公務人員去做職責工作，關於這個工作，你也要編列預算讓他們去執行啊，你完全沒有編列，又叫他們去做，所以就看不到一個效果出來嘛！我希望院長跟部長你們兩位能向我們全國的新住民承諾，是不是在三個月內讓這個籌備處正式啟動？怎麼樣去執行，我們再來共同去努力，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行政院現在經費拮据，籌備處成立是不會舉行盛大的開幕典禮，這個從來沒有過啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：他說的喔，上次內政部長說的，他說籌備處要去成立……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦，在目前這個情況下是不會有開幕典禮的啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：但是就算沒有公開，什麼時候成立總要有一個日期，有一個承諾，有一個進度吧？不然就是用講的，用講的大家都會啊，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，像是體育部的籌備處，你也沒有參加過開幕典禮啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：體育部的籌備處也開始了，但是也沒有開幕典禮啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊，沒有，是他說會有開幕嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：籌備處不會有開幕典禮，所以我們會要求內政部……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以不管有沒有開幕，我要的是要有何時何日，哪一天，是這樣而已！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員只是看不到內政部……"],["麥委員玉珍：院長可以向大家承諾嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員只是看不到內政部同仁在這裡的努力，對新住民的權益等各種，他們已經研議了很多……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有否定他的努力，才會去問他做了什麼嘛！才要叫他編列預算嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個籌備處……"],["麥委員玉珍：他沒有成立，又沒有編列預算，什麼叫做否認呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，籌備處已經成立了。"],["麥委員玉珍：你才是否認大家的努力！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，籌備處已經成立了。"],["麥委員玉珍：我問你啊，114年到現在已經4個月了，所以大家……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會繼續籌備。"],["麥委員玉珍：你說凍結預算，所以大家在做什麼？吹冷氣、吃便當嗎？所以你否定大家的功勞啊，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一再污衊公務員……"],["麥委員玉珍：大家都有在做事情，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一再污衊公務員非常不智啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們要進度，要進度，不是解釋……"],["卓院長榮泰：你不要一再地污衊公務員，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：不是紙上談兵！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員不要一味污衊公務員，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：我沒有污衊啊，我講的是大家的功勞，叫你不要否定大家的功勞。"],["卓院長榮泰：你說公務員只會吃飯、吃便當，不要污衊公務員，這樣不好。"],["麥委員玉珍：該給的預算要給，該編的預算要編，但是我們沒有看到。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會繼續籌備，對新住民的權益從來不會放鬆。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我是要你們有明確的日期嘛！要做要做，每天在那邊做，這個月我也做……"],["卓院長榮泰：籌備處有很多籌備處的委員在工作……"],["麥委員玉珍：只有領一些薪水，也做這件事情，做到民國幾年也不知道，就是為了這一件事情，是這樣嗎？我們行政院的行政機構是這樣子嗎？一件事情做到沒完沒了這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經開始了。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有嘛，對不對？我們要明確的一個時間跟日期。"],["卓院長榮泰：已經開始了。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有，關於我們放棄國籍的部分，我們也希望我們內政部長這邊，不要因為新住民，不管是外配還是陸配，一視同仁，像我們是要放棄國籍才能領身分證，陸配一樣，要放棄戶籍，你們要求的，不是他們要求的，放棄了才能領身分證，不要到最後再來跟大家算帳，我們要求公平、平等、一視同仁……"],["卓院長榮泰：對中華民國國家忠誠是要公平的。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們的要求只有這樣而已，其他的，我們是很守本分的，依法行政，只要我們踏進臺灣一步，我們就依法行政，依政府的規定來去執行。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及劉部長備詢。","接下來請翁曉玲委員質詢，林宜瑾委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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林委員那我們就是最多就是三位因為我們的硬體設備就是這樣 好嗎好 如果您想其他的部長我們再請這邊的部長下去換一個 好不好好 時間開始 麻煩請林委員林委員好好 院長 主委還有部長大家早"},{"start":60.253,"end":87.303,"text":"我想卓院長一向我個人跟你就任到現在520到現在我說實在我看得出來啦你是非常無奈以我了解過去的卓榮泰確確實實有所無奈的在做中華民國的行政院院長當然我們看得出來本黨一向包括我在內"},{"start":88.479,"end":116.192,"text":"理性務實科學我們絕對不會因為人而來拗任何事情有多少證據講多少話有什麼事情我們也會多體會執政者的苦處我也知道 院長你對最近的內政問題確實千頭萬細對於大罷免你也非常無奈"},{"start":117.745,"end":133.57,"text":"對於關稅的問題 當前現在所有的錢民 大家非常關注的關稅問題這也就是一句話 大國任性 小國忍受"},{"start":134.694,"end":151.45,"text":"這些東西本來就是很無奈所以我也知道你雖然做了中華民國的行政院長但是確實有很多無奈的事情但是院長我說實在的我特別還是要鼓勵和勉勵你"},{"start":153.172,"end":176.391,"text":"真的有些事情要面對問題解決問題真的因為你現在所有的行政院長當中我在做比較你的人品是好的很但是你現在做出來的事情確實是讓人民非常無奈我必須提供一個資訊給院長做參總因為這些關稅問題"},{"start":182.486,"end":192.931,"text":"你知道你的民調下7%嗎所以這個提供給你做參考那我在想我時間給院長30秒的時間針對這些你認同我這些說謊嗎確實無奈最大的無奈來自立法院的結構對行政院送出的種種的法案"},{"start":205.677,"end":231.893,"text":"都一概不予同意而且立法院通過的法案一再違背預算法跟憲法的規定好 超出預算超出設出從來沒有徵詢行政院這個無奈才讓我寸步難行院長 這個你已經講你已經講過很多次了你的無奈不是這個這些好不好 我特別要提醒你並不了解我的無奈你的無奈我都了解不然我不會開頭就讓你有這種說明的機會"},{"start":234.955,"end":256.563,"text":"我坦白跟你講啊 現在就是 賢己有政黨 執政無政黨這種心態 去執政 那就沒有問題可是你們現在不是啊所以 燕子啊 我不要跟你辯論這些我一定會尊重你 現在你的處境但是 我還是要呼籲"},{"start":257.643,"end":266.669,"text":"我今天特別的主題就是要你沒有問題但是你的格言是大大有問題為什麼不要再造謠不要再造謠我要請問劉部長3月29號"},{"start":277.847,"end":288.664,"text":"你在下鄉演講的時候請問一下你為什麼指責台灣民眾黨吃台灣米變成中國粿拜託你告訴我為什麼"},{"start":292.919,"end":313.433,"text":"報告委員,我這是以個人的身份到...你不要跟我講個人的身份,可是你為什麼要指名道姓台灣民眾黨呢?我跟你講,我膝掌你起碎,身在台灣,只為台灣鬼,那你為什麼要罵台灣民眾黨是中國鬼呢?你的定義是什麼?"},{"start":314.113,"end":337.261,"text":"因為在前一天啊 這個台灣民眾黨有到鳳山那鳳山那邊有人去抗議那抗議的時候舉的這個牌子我覺得這個牌子呢 我覺得對於有一些啊不是指貴長 有一些人呢 他們的一個請貢應該是要做出來說明你口才很好 但是你不要換位置 要換了腦袋"},{"start":339.235,"end":366.072,"text":"這幾天你為對集會遊行法你過去在立法委員的時候你什麼態度你現在當為一個主管的時候你什麼態度這個我也不要跟你辯論你有你的看法換一個位置換一個腦袋無所謂但是你是政黨的主管機關指名道姓個人我不批評但是你指名台灣民眾黨"},{"start":367.173,"end":388.521,"text":"那就包括我在內可是我告訴你我就是台灣人我就是台灣鬼你幹嘛罵我中國鬼什麼意思所以我跟你講部長我尊重你過去你在當立法委員你在當副市長你在當我們台北市的局長我都非常尊敬的"},{"start":389.417,"end":411.984,"text":"但是你講台灣民眾黨吃台灣米是中國鬼這基本上這是一個恥辱是一個政黨的主管機關應該這樣講嗎是應該這樣嗎所以我不服氣我要對你抗議所以照這種規則我告訴你就應該要下台 院長"},{"start":413.168,"end":429.8,"text":"我坦白跟你講沒有政黨的主管機關他是首長他是主管政黨那我們是中國鬼那你什麼鬼你告訴我你什麼鬼跟委員報告我跟你一樣吃台灣米做台灣粿"},{"start":431.727,"end":454.763,"text":"是啊 那你為什麼要講我們台灣民眾黨是中國鬼咧所以我告訴你前言跟後語要對齁什麼前言跟後語 你還要再變對不起不對就不對但是我坦白跟你講 我一向 卓院長你很清楚我是對任何事情 我不會對人尤其我尊敬的人 我是禮讓三分"},{"start":455.905,"end":482.642,"text":"那我也相信這不是卓院長要你講可是我也同意在這整個人潮洶湧的情況之下一定會有一種情緒高昂可是你是政黨的主管機關部長不可以這樣講你講個人是個人的事你不能現在又推你自己本身是代表個人不可以這樣"},{"start":483.883,"end":509.052,"text":"言論自由我們尊重可是你不能整個黨都給人家罵下去這樣不好啦說實在我的墳墓我已經看好了就在台灣不會在中國這我很大膽的告訴你我也很大膽的跟卓院長你來做報告好 邱主委來我請問一下"},{"start":510.168,"end":530.063,"text":"你有沒有發現台灣民眾黨在你們做兩岸政策的時候我們有阻擋你任何議案沒有 有沒有不要遺憾 有沒有台灣民眾黨有沒有阻擋你們任何的一個政策 有沒有"},{"start":531.763,"end":549.156,"text":"目前法律案是還沒有但是預算案卻蠻遺憾的你不要再給我扯預算案預算案是這種東西是另外一個我跟你談的是一個政黨的有沒有阻擋你兩岸的問題有沒有有就有沒有就沒有有沒有報告委員我們提了很多的國安法相關的法律國安法我在程序委員會啦"},{"start":560.471,"end":588.751,"text":"院長 我告訴你啦 你不要被底下的蒙騙啦我告訴你 提了只有兩案沒有通過 其他通通通過這兩案是到底立法委員跟村里長跟議員要到大陸去訪問的時候要跟主管機關報告 或者跟我立法院來報告只有黨這個我們希望是跟我立法院來報告立法委員跟立法院"},{"start":589.531,"end":612.163,"text":"院報告這是順理存章所以說有黨啊不管什麼理由就是有黨啊我們認為這樣才是國家安全所必須的但是就是有黨啊這不是黨這是戰反我曾經提案人我跟他溝通你就改跟立法院來報告我們沒意見你可以去看看主張有些無關緊要有促進"},{"start":614.075,"end":625.285,"text":"這國安的問題我跟你講我們都沒有黨喔我跟你講如果台灣民眾黨你們認為我們還是不理性的話我說實在的你找不到所以"},{"start":626.001,"end":654.651,"text":"那個 邱主委 有就有 沒有就沒有我們是希望像這個立法院的社密人員應該跟行政部門來做通報 我們來做審查你是一個 該你的事 有就有 沒有就沒有我坦白講啦 我坦白講你知不知道 台灣民眾黨的立委還是多數被中共季節進入中國的 你知道嗎你知不知道啊"},{"start":656.172,"end":683.454,"text":"我告訴你 我們跟民進黨的立法委員沒有兩樣還是被禁止進入中國所以我今天為什麼這麼氣概一定 將心比心啦 你會通過我了解但是我要分開 你也要了解你聽好不好 不能這樣亂講所以這一點 我坦白跟你講我要提供資訊給你我們還有很多人被禁止進入大陸連香港都不能去的所以這一點"},{"start":684.488,"end":687.326,"text":"我想邱主委你特別要去了解一下好不好"},{"start":688.069,"end":699.477,"text":"所以對於立法委員去到大陸 除了跟他院長了解之外主管機關才能夠掌握未來的人身安全這是一個非常普遍的要求而已啊"},{"start":718.472,"end":718.774,"text":"所以這點變了"},{"start":721.265,"end":749.578,"text":"沒有 院長 我不管是口誤或不管是細意那是另外一回事今天有機會跟你這樣對白我希望最政黨的價值性的批判當然要謹慎但是任何政黨對總統的批判也要非常的小心啊一定 你如果要去安撫那個領導的事情啦我特別跟你說來 接下來第二張請問一下嘛來 劉部長這些都是你們民進黨的人喔這些都是"},{"start":750.902,"end":759.519,"text":"都是被我們國安單位調查 司法單位調查這是 請問一下這是台灣鬼或中國鬼你告訴我"},{"start":760.523,"end":779.27,"text":"他已經接受了中國的價值觀所以他從...這個就是中國鬼啦沒有 他從最堅強的堡壘當中要來破壞這個堡壘這個就是他們的戰術所以他已經是台灣人接受了中國的價值觀我跟你講啦我尊重你 我不希望你一直去袒護這些我們要面對問題該辦就辦 而不要一辦數辦你恍而沒有去糾正你的格言"},{"start":785.993,"end":807.247,"text":"你隔眼做任何事情你要概括承受的因為你是中華民國行政院最高所長所以你的隔眼講出話來你是要概括承受本來就不可以這樣的台灣鬼就是台灣鬼像這些 好 進行下一張 來"},{"start":810.794,"end":833.473,"text":"好啦 一定 我不跟你吵架啦 時間有限我坦白跟你講 你們很奇怪這個主公會裡面 我跟你講這些警消主公會 我記得很清楚教師主公會也是這種想法但是最後教書沒有罷工錢 他只有勞動三權"},{"start":836.603,"end":852.7,"text":"過得很好啊 也沒有罷工啊所以這些東西說實在的不要把它看成洪水猛獸所以啊 我們柯總召又說這個主張組工會的人就是中共同路人"},{"start":853.28,"end":868.526,"text":"一定 這是我們獻華賦儀結社遣的一種但是至於錦霄因為他是公務人員要不要讓他們兼濟勞工之身份"},{"start":870.207,"end":893.962,"text":"這個可以談 但是你們反對 一定 我坦白跟你講因為公務人員兼具勞工身份在台灣非常之多所以 確確實實 這個是可以談但是如何把它研磨 不能去用醜化的動作喔 這些警校就是中共同路人支持的就是 你如果要這樣的話 我跟你講喔上一屆"},{"start":895.339,"end":919.075,"text":"二十幾個民進黨支持喔這一屆有十六個人喔裡面這種理論有七四十的理論說實在一定 這些人不就都要抓起來這不合理啦一句話 我們對警消同仁的尊敬跟支持跟我們對國軍弟兄的尊敬支持是一樣的只是警消人員對國家有特別權利義務關係我們必須要維持這種權利義務關係時間的問題啦 我要呼應你"},{"start":924.358,"end":945.967,"text":"對於打詐的問題不要開玩笑現在國外非常猖獗以前是針對年輕人現在是中高齡所以這個問題資訊現在你們報案的專線良又不起有時候真的他要報案真的要統一報案專線"},{"start":947.827,"end":972.279,"text":"這個才是真正要的一句話打詐確實要打但是打詐行為的結構已經在轉變大家最詬病的投資詐騙目前已經稍微有下降好 謝謝林郭辰維謝謝卓院長 各部會所長的備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":21,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時1分）謝謝院長，請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["林委員國成：另外請內政部。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部備詢。"],["林委員國成：陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：麻煩請陸委會備詢。","時間暫停，林委員，最多就是3位，因為我們的硬體設備就是這樣，好嗎？如果你想請其他的部長，我們請這邊的部長下去再換一個，好不好？好，時間開始，麻煩請林委員繼續。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：院長、主委及部長，大家早。卓院長520就任到現在，我說實在，我看得出來你是非常無奈，以我過去了解的卓榮泰，確確實實有所無奈地在做中華民國的行政院院長。當然我們看得出來，本黨一向理性、務實、科學，包括我在內，我們絕對不會因為人而來凹任何事情，有多少證據，講多少話；有什麼事情，我們也會多體會執政者的苦處。我也知道，院長對最近的內政問題確實千頭萬緒，對於大罷免，你也非常無奈；對於關稅的問題，當前所有全民大家非常關注的關稅問題，這也就是一句話：大國任性、小國忍受。這些東西本來就是很無奈，所以我也知道，你雖然做了中華民國的行政院長，但是確實有很多無奈的事情。可是院長，我說實在的，我特別還是要鼓勵跟勉勵你，真的有些事情要面對問題、解決問題，真的！因為你在所有的行政院長當中，我在做比較，你的人品是好得很，但是你現在做出來的事情，確實是讓人民非常無奈。","我必須提供一個資訊給院長做參酌，因為這些關稅問題，你知道你的民調下降7%嗎？這個提供給你做參考。我的時間給院長30秒的時間，針對這些，你認同我的這些說法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：確實無奈，最大的無奈來自立法院的結構，對行政院送出的種種法案，都一概不予同意，而且立法院通過的法案，一再違背預算法跟憲法的規定，超出預算、超出歲出，從來沒有徵詢行政院，這個無奈才讓我寸步難行。"],["林委員國成：院長，這個你已經講過很多次了，你的無奈不是只有這些，好不好？我特別要提醒……"],["卓院長榮泰：你並不了解我的無奈。"],["林委員國成：你的無奈我都了解，不然我不會開頭就讓你有說明的機會，我坦白跟你講，現在就是選舉有政黨，執政無政黨，以這種心態去執政就沒有問題，可是你們現在不是啊！院長，我不要跟你辯論這些，我一定會尊重你現在的處境，但是我還是要呼籲。","我今天特別的主題就是，你沒有問題，但是你的閣員是大大有問題，為什麼？不要再造謠！我要請問劉部長，3月29號你在下鄉演講的時候，為什麼指責台灣民眾黨「吃臺灣米變成中國鬼」？拜託，你告訴我，為什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我這是以個人的身分到……"],["林委員國成：你不要跟我講個人的身分，你為什麼要指名道姓台灣民眾黨呢？我跟你講，我虛長你幾歲，身在臺灣，死為臺灣鬼，你為什麼要罵台灣民眾黨是中國鬼？你的定義是什麼？告訴我。"],["劉部長世芳：因為在前一天台灣民眾黨有到鳳山，鳳山那邊有人去抗議，抗議的時候舉了這個牌子，我覺得這個牌子對於有一些……"],["林委員國成：劉部長……"],["劉部長世芳：不是指貴黨，有一些人他們的挺共傾向……"],["林委員國成：劉部長，你口才很好……"],["劉部長世芳：應該是要出來做說明。"],["林委員國成：但是你不要換了位置就換了腦袋，這幾天你對集會遊行法，你過去在當立法委員的時候是什麼態度，你現在作為主管的時候是什麼態度，這個我也不要跟你辯論，你有你的看法，換一個位置，換一個腦袋，無所謂，但是你是政黨的主管機關，指名道姓個人，我不批評，但是你指名台灣民眾黨，那就包括我在內，可是我告訴你，我就是臺灣人，我就是臺灣鬼，你幹嘛罵我是中國鬼，什麼意思？我跟你講，部長，我尊重你，過去你在當立法委員，你在當副市長，你在當我們臺北市的局長時我都非常尊敬的，但是你講台灣民眾黨「吃臺灣米做中國鬼」，基本上，這是一個恥辱，一個政黨的主管機關應該這樣講嗎？應該這樣嗎？所以我不服氣，我要對你抗議！所以照這種規則，我告訴你，就應該要下臺！院長，我坦白跟你講，沒有政黨的主管機關……他是首長欸！他是主管政黨，我們是中國鬼，那你是什麼鬼？你告訴我，你是什麼鬼？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，我跟你一樣「吃臺灣米做臺灣鬼」。"],["林委員國成：是啊！那你為什麼要講我們台灣民眾黨是中國鬼？所以我告訴你……"],["劉部長世芳：前言跟後語要對好。"],["林委員國成：什麼前言跟後語？"],["劉部長世芳：因為……"],["林委員國成：你還要再辯？"],["劉部長世芳：對不起。"],["林委員國成：不對就不對，但是我坦白跟你講，卓院長，你很清楚，我一向是對事情，我不會對人，尤其我尊敬的人，我是禮讓三分，我相信這不是卓院長要你講的，我也同意，在這整個人潮洶湧的情況之下，一定會有一種情緒高昂，可是你是政黨的主管機關，部長，不可以這樣講！你講個人是個人的事，你不能現在又推說你自己本身是代表個人，不可以這樣！言論自由我們尊重，可是你不能整個黨都給人家罵下去，這樣「無效」啦！說實在的，我的墳墓我已經看好了，就在臺灣，不會在中國，這我很大膽地告訴你，我也很大膽地跟卓院長做報告。","邱主委，我請問一下，你有沒有發現台灣民眾黨在你們做兩岸政策的時候，我們有阻擋任何議案？有沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們比較遺憾的是……"],["林委員國成：不要遺憾，有沒有？台灣民眾黨有沒有阻擋你們任何的一個政策，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：目前法律還沒有。"],["林委員國成：好。"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是預算案卻滿遺憾的。"],["林委員國成：你不要再給我扯預算案，預算案是另外一個，我跟你談的是台灣民眾黨有沒有阻擋兩岸的問題，有沒有？有就有，沒有就沒有，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們提了很多國安法相關的法律。"],["林委員國成：國安法，我在程序委員會啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：你們並沒有支持。"],["林委員國成：院長，我告訴你啦！你不要被底下的矇騙，提了只有兩案沒有通過，其他通通通過，這兩案是要求立法委員、村里長跟議員要到大陸訪問的時候，要向主管機關報告，或者向立法院報告，只有擋這個，我們希望是向立法院報告，立法委員向立法院報告，這是順理成章。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以是有擋啊！不管什麼理由就是有擋，我們認為這樣才是國家安全所必須的，但是就是有擋啊！"],["林委員國成：這不是擋，是暫緩。我曾經跟提案人溝通，改為向立法院報告，我們沒意見；你可以去了解看看，主張有些無關緊要，是有促進國安問題的法案，我們都沒有擋喔！如果你們認為台灣民眾黨還是不理性的話，說實在的你們找不到了，所以邱主委有就有，沒有就沒有。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們希望立法院有涉密人員應該向行政部門做通報，我們來做審查。"],["林委員國成：主委該是你的事，有就有，沒有就沒有。你知不知道台灣民眾黨的立委還是多數被中共拒絕進入中國的，你知道嗎？知不知道啊？我們跟民進黨的立法委員沒有兩樣，還是被禁止進入中國，所以我今天為什麼這麼氣慨，院長將心比心啊！你的痛苦我了解，但是我的憤慨，你也要了解，你聽懂嗎？不能這樣亂說，這點坦白跟你講，我要提供資訊給你，我們還有很多人被禁止進入大陸的，連香港都不能去的，所以這部分請邱主委特別要去了解一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以對於立法委員去到大陸，除了讓韓院長了解之外，主管機關未來才能夠掌握委員的人身安全，這是一個非常普遍的要求而已。"],["林委員國成：坦白跟院長說，我是針對這句話，你把台灣民眾黨所有人概括，全部都打成中國鬼，這點我是抗議的，沒有這回事，臺灣就是臺灣，身在臺灣就是臺灣鬼，你幹嘛給我冠上中國鬼？"],["卓院長榮泰：這點對政黨的批判，當然要……"],["林委員國成：院長，我不管是口誤或不管是蓄意，那是另外一回事，今天有機會跟你這樣對白，我希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：對政黨價值性的批判當然要謹慎。"],["林委員國成：好了，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是任何政黨對總統的批判，也要非常地小心。"],["林委員國成：院長如果你要去袒護，那是你家的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有袒護。"],["林委員國成：接下來，請問劉部長，這些都是你們民進黨的人，都是被國安單位調查、司法單位調查，請問這些人是臺灣鬼還是中國鬼？你告訴我。"],["卓院長榮泰：他們已經接受了中國的價值觀，所以他們從民進黨……"],["林委員國成：這就是中國鬼啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，他們從最堅強的堡壘當中要破壞這個堡壘，這就是他們的戰術，所以他已經是臺灣人接受了中國的價值觀。"],["林委員國成：院長，我尊重你，我不希望你一直去袒護這些。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有袒護，該辦就辦，而且要嚴辦速辦。"],["林委員國成：我們要面對問題，你反而沒有去糾正你的閣員，閣員做任何事情，你要概括承受的，因為你是中華民國行政院最高首長，所以你的閣員所講出話，你是要概括承受，本來就不可以這樣的，臺灣鬼就是臺灣鬼。好啦！院長，我不跟你吵架啦，時間有限！我坦白跟你講，你也很奇怪，關於這些警消組工會，我記得很清楚，教師組工會也是這種想法，但是最後教師沒有罷工權，他只有勞動三權，這過得很好，也沒有罷工，所以說實在的，這些東西不要把它看成洪水猛獸。我們柯總召又主張組工會的人就是中共同路人，院長，我們說實在的，這是我們憲法賦予結社權的一種，至於警消，因為他是公務人員，要不要讓他們兼具勞工之身分，這個可以談，但是你們反對。院長，我坦白跟你說，因為公務人員兼具勞工身分的在臺灣非常之多，所以確確實實這個是可以談，但是如何把它研擬，不能用醜化的動作說這些警消就是中共同路人，說支持的就是，你如果要這樣，我跟你說，上一屆有二十幾個民進黨委員支持，這一屆有16個人喔，如果以你們這種扭曲事實的理論，說實在的，院長，這些人不就都要抓起來？這不合理啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：一句話，我們對警消同仁的尊敬跟支持，跟我們對國軍弟兄的尊敬支持是一樣的，只是警消人員對國家有特別權利義務關係……"],["林委員國成：好啦，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們必須要維持這種特別權利義務關係。"],["林委員國成：最後，時間的問題，我要呼籲你，對於打詐的問題不要開玩笑，現在國外非常猖獗，以前是針對年輕人，現在是中高齡，所以針對問題的資訊，現在你們報案的專線良莠不齊，他要報案時真的要有統一的報案專線，這個才是真正要……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告一句話，打詐確實要打，但是打詐行為的結構已經在轉變，大家最詬病的投資詐騙目前已經稍微有下降了，而其他新興的類型我們都有注意到。"],["林委員國成：好啦，院長，我是良心的建議啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：你要把以前卓榮泰的這種心態，放在臺灣人的心目中啦！這是最重要的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：你以後還是會看得到，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：好。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請麥玉珍委員質詢，翁曉玲委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","林國成","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","林宜瑾","盧縣一","林月琴","高金素梅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","陳永康","林俊憲","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1143701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143701_00012"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}