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郭怡情委員還有陳佩儀委員 曾振淺委員"},{"start":1954.537,"end":1972.493,"text":"報告黨團協商會議我們就現在協商那委員徐一貞等52人凝聚公投提案主文為賴清德總統定位對岸為境外敵對勢力人民擔心兩岸進入準戰爭狀態"},{"start":1974.835,"end":1986.469,"text":"那你是否同意政府應避免戰爭不讓台灣變成實施軍事戒嚴清廉善命且加嚴這個被毀的烏克蘭請公決"},{"start":1997.659,"end":2026.889,"text":"本案今114年的3月25日立法院第11屆第3會期第6次的宴會決議交付黨團協商並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商協商會議請各黨團指派代表參加在案所以今天由本席代表國民黨黨團來主持這一次的協商會議那現在開始進行協商"},{"start":2035.587,"end":2050.401,"text":"現在請主席 出席的黨團代表表示意見好 請羅志強委員上台那在座的好了 在座的那麥克風OK 好"},{"start":2058.873,"end":2075.984,"text":"今天會舉行這一場協商是因為來自台灣多數民眾現在都非常的擔心我最近也在街頭幾乎是愛家愛戶的拜訪選民真的遇到很多民眾對於台灣當情的處境非常憂心"},{"start":2077.219,"end":2102.639,"text":"那前幾天我在街頭拜訪的時候就一位外送的大哥他看到我當場就落淚他激動的跟我講說現在我們的執政者沉迷於政治鬥爭現在我們的台灣有可能被推向戰爭那他非常的焦慮所以在這邊其實今天的公投也是要提出一個嚴肅的警訊"},{"start":2104.62,"end":2127.547,"text":"我們的民主正面臨考驗我們的自由被慢慢蠶食我們好不容易真實的台灣的制度走向一個危險的逆行道路回到戒嚴時期司法抓捕在野黨的年代在亞洲中華民國跟南韓的政治跟經濟發展常常被作為一個相似的對照"},{"start":2128.649,"end":2152.602,"text":"那麼還記得南韓總統尹錫悅在面對這個國人對他的不信任跟不滿意的時候他以所謂的國安為由宣布戒嚴封鎖國會最後呢被國會以204票對85票憲法法院然後通過彈劾罷免下台"},{"start":2153.803,"end":2182.131,"text":"那這個不是電影情節就是才剛發生在距離我們不遠處的民主國家亞洲的民主國家那韓國人民是用制度跟勇氣捍衛他們的民主但是各位真的覺得它只發生在南韓嗎我們看看今天的台灣我們是不是也正在走向那一條這個尹錫悅想走的這一條道路上"},{"start":2183.619,"end":2206.127,"text":"賴清德總統提出了國安十七條將對岸定位為境外敵對勢力那兩岸的烽火加劇那甚至開始以正戰爭的狀態來治理國家這樣的一個所謂的目前當情的情況我們有必要來探求民意怎麼去看待今天這個局面"},{"start":2207.145,"end":2233.003,"text":"那麼更重要的是在這個所謂的準戰爭的背後實際上你可以看到各項各種所謂的限制人民權利自由的各種所謂的管制措施也正逐步的開始沒有宣布戒嚴的戒嚴其實早就在台灣這塊土地之上一一的上演更何況最近台灣也很遺憾"},{"start":2234.583,"end":2259.171,"text":"發生在野黨遭到司法機關接連針對然後被搜索在野黨的黨的重要幹部然後呢被收押方方面面其實民進黨正在全面殲滅在野黨這個計畫而且最嚴重的是用司法為手段"},{"start":2260.558,"end":2283.519,"text":"它其實某種程度它是比戒嚴還要恐怖的戒嚴因為它是以司法為所謂的清算的一個基底但是另外一方面你看到當整個國家用這麼大的一個力量來去做其他民主國家幾乎不敢做的事情"},{"start":2284.844,"end":2310.607,"text":"就像我今天質詢法務部長跟調查局長我就直接問他們一個問題他頓了10秒20秒30秒不管我問幾次他都答不出來我說有哪一個民主國家大規模搜索在野黨黨部他完全答不出來所以我們要看到就是說基本上這樣的狀況其實已經比戒嚴更嚴重了"},{"start":2311.701,"end":2339.571,"text":"那這是為什麼今天我們要提出這一個公投這公投其實就是把人民的心聲反映在公民投票之上來去請執政者也有機會好好想一想我們真的要走烏克蘭的這條路嗎我們真的要走軍事戒嚴的這條路嗎我們真的要走這一個可能往戰爭方向移動的路嗎這是台灣當前唯一的選擇嗎"},{"start":2342.011,"end":2368.762,"text":"就像賴慶德總統或民進黨你會發現過去很多主張跟現在主張都不太一樣了我講一個歷史故事給大家聽就像賴慶德總統講軍事審判過去賴總統也好民進黨也好說軍事審判違反人權但現在沒有軍事審判國家安全無法維護就像說以前民進黨曾經努力廢除刑法100條"},{"start":2370.455,"end":2391.917,"text":"他認為民進黨的主張很簡單在台灣宣揚共產主義宣揚共產主義乃至於宣揚武力顛覆政府都是言論自由除非你著手施行否則你不應該將之入罪但現在民進黨採取了另外完全不同的態度"},{"start":2392.947,"end":2419.516,"text":"我先用客觀中立的角度來看我先不評價到底是以前的民進黨主張可以宣揚共產主義主張可以宣揚武力顛覆政府是賣台還是說其實是今天的民進黨他正準備往戒嚴的方向走準備往戰爭的方向走是毀民主這兩個民進黨當中必然有一個民進黨他是應該要受到責難的"},{"start":2422.679,"end":2446.469,"text":"所以我不幫台灣人民來責難前面的民進黨30年前的民進黨還是今天的民進黨我們就要公投讓人民來決定到底是以前民進黨當時在奮鬥解嚴在奮鬥所謂的連共產主義宣揚都可以視為言論自由這樣的主張的民進黨是對的"},{"start":2447.575,"end":2476.461,"text":"還是今天司法清算動輒來去壓迫在野黨想要達到全面封殺監督聲音的民進黨是對的一個國安的理由就讓民進黨成為正確最後我要想講日本村上春樹的作家村上春樹說過一句我很喜歡的話其實這也是民進黨過去在野時候最常引用的一句話他說當雞蛋與高牆對撞時"},{"start":2477.847,"end":2507.21,"text":"不管雞蛋有多麼的脆弱我永遠站在雞蛋的這一邊今天民進黨作為一個執政的高牆你會發現真正的各種弊案各種的一些問題其實都源於民進黨今天的執政高端 超私 達德 光電幾億 幾十億 上百億的弊案請問我們現在民進黨執政的政府查了嗎"},{"start":2508.326,"end":2530.859,"text":"辦了嗎我們來看看今天橫行的詐騙暴征的所謂的毒品各項的犯罪的狀況請問民進黨花了多少時間 多少力氣在整辦但民進黨把寶貴的司法資源用在哪裡用在追殺 清算 在野黨他在用高強的力量 正在鎮壓"},{"start":2537.577,"end":2563.11,"text":"脆弱的鸡蛋所以亲爱的台湾人民我们要看破今天作为一个权力的高强他的傲慢他是怎么样来去想要来去欺压所谓的在野的力量所谓的民主最核心的东西民主最核心就是制衡没有制衡就不可能有民主"},{"start":2564.901,"end":2589.247,"text":"所以今天一旦在野黨真的是在目前的狀況之下被民進黨封殺、割喉、清算了那我也告訴各位下一把刀斧不就是用戒嚴、準戒嚴、司法戒嚴來自於各項的所謂的執政者所編織出來的一個理由然後一一的來鎮壓跟清算"},{"start":2590.461,"end":2611.966,"text":"所以今天這個公投其實一是反映人民的心聲另外當然也是給執政者我們一個提醒希望賴清德總統 希望民進黨政府好好想想人民真正擔心的是什麼以上 謝謝謝謝羅志強委員的發言那補充介紹我們習以生委員王宏威委員葛如今委員"},{"start":2619.97,"end":2644.692,"text":"羅明財委員陳清威委員那現在就是先請那個提案委員的看就是徐以貞委員葛如今委員要不要做一個說明還有羅志強委員提案委員好在現場做就好了"},{"start":2647.958,"end":2666.495,"text":"謝謝主席我想本席這次提案的是一個 覆決重大政策的公民投票因為這不只是一場公投的投票更重要的是攸關國家命運的生死的分水嶺這也不是單純的只是政策的討論而是攸關2340萬人未來的選擇國家的未來由人民公投來決定"},{"start":2672.62,"end":2694.271,"text":"所以國民黨團提出公投你是否同意政府應避免戰爭不讓台灣變成實施軍事建業青年喪命家園被毀的烏克蘭這個公投絕不是危言聳聽而是台灣正面臨的迫切危機今日烏克蘭明日台灣這句話正迅速從警語變為事實"},{"start":2696.212,"end":2708.082,"text":"如今的台灣早已不再是過去自由民主的典範我們幾乎已經陷入食指戒嚴的狀態過去一個月全台人民都目睹了前所未見的政治打壓檢調單位大規模搜索、約談、生壓那些推動罷免立委的公民團體與國民黨的地方幹部甚至連台北市黨部的主委都因推論、想像而被生壓"},{"start":2721.833,"end":2750.56,"text":"请问在这样的一个国家里一张传单一句口号一个赖群组就能构成犯罪人民依法罢免立委就要准备迎接警察临检家园被搜索检调讯问生压警检这不是民主的做法这就是戒严我们看到的是一个执政党意志凌驾法律的体制是一个以国安为名对一级展开政治整肃的政权今日的台湾"},{"start":2751.68,"end":2768.736,"text":"還沒宣布戒嚴卻已早已實質進入戒嚴的狀態當在野黨的黨部都可以任意被搜索黨部的主委都可以根據毫無根據的一個狀況生壓言論輕易被貼上叛國的標籤民主早已名存實亡"},{"start":2770.425,"end":2790.868,"text":"這一次賴清德總統未經立法院討論片面發布所謂的賴17條將中國大陸定義為境外敵對勢力進一步將台灣社會推入對立分裂恐懼的深淵這不是外交與兩岸定位的重大變更更是繞過憲政體制踐踏民主程序的行政獨裁"},{"start":2791.829,"end":2807.817,"text":"的行為民進黨不僅打造思想審查言論紅線敵我劃分如今更結合檢警司法全面動員國家機器對付一級者我們正在眼尖間看著台灣失去民主國家的一個樣貌"},{"start":2808.937,"end":2831.28,"text":"所以我們今天提出的反戒嚴公投不是為了藍綠之爭而是為了保住台灣這個地方保住民主制度保住下一代的生存空間賴清德總統自上任以來從提出了新兩國論到拋出賴17條再宣布將對岸定位為境外敵對勢力一步步升高兩岸的敵對"},{"start":2832.621,"end":2851.813,"text":"擺明了就是要替戰爭鋪路這不是在維持和平請問這樣的總統還能帶領台灣必戰保台嗎而我們這次所提出的四項理由呢首先第一項是賴清德總統將大陸地區定義為境外敵對勢力以改變兩岸現狀第二項"},{"start":2854.695,"end":2883.294,"text":"賴總統近日宣布重大政策不符合民主的程序因為賴政府事前並未徵詢立法院的意見恐以違反民主政治的精神第三項言論自由恐遭限縮這是掌權者以維護國安之名行限制人民言論之時的惡例第四項是宣告對岸為境外獨特勢力導致台海瀕臨戰爭的一個邊緣所以在這邊我們提出這樣的公投希望"},{"start":2884.234,"end":2898.767,"text":"大家草野的立委大家能夠放下政黨的顏色讓這項提案正式進入正式成立把民主還給台灣謝謝謝謝徐益臻委員的發言接下來有葛如君委員發言好謝謝主席謝謝出席的各位委員高牆必倒暴政必亡"},{"start":2908.072,"end":2933.128,"text":"覆巢之下也無完卵但我們必然還是會選擇站在雞蛋的這一邊維持現狀也是一種可能性拼經濟顧民生也是一種選項我們認為這樣的選項應該交由全民來公決這是我們這一次這個提案最核心的思維謝謝"},{"start":2935.902,"end":2943.619,"text":"那現在我們請出席的黨團代表表示意見那王一鳴委員"},{"start":2947.836,"end":2966.483,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員同仁大家好我想中華民國我們的民主自由繁榮和平這個是所有生活在台灣這片土地所有的人民最珍視的一個價值但是我們看到賴清德總統他提出來的賴17條然後把對岸視為境外敵對勢力之後等於是升高了兩岸的"},{"start":2976.407,"end":2995.998,"text":"對立跟衝突而大家看到這個對岸的這些戰機戰艦更頻繁的在圍繞台灣我們反對對岸這樣的一個武力的行為但是我們要問當政府一面的去升高兩岸的情勢的時候是不是把全台灣2300萬人民帶向了戰爭的邊緣這樣的一個準戰爭的狀態"},{"start":3002.862,"end":3011.19,"text":"是讓老百姓在這片土地會過得非常的不安包括像我們的宮廟都要變成是儲存我們這些彈藥的據點你知道人民有多麼的恐懼嗎在這樣的情況底下台灣人民都擔心一件事情我們會不會成為烏克蘭台灣人民不希望步入烏克蘭的後塵"},{"start":3026.303,"end":3037.893,"text":"因為所有的戰爭其實給人民帶來的是生命跟財產的一個損失所以台灣要避免戰爭我們也反對賴清德總統他把台灣帶入戰爭的邊緣我們更反對賴清德總統以國安之名行戒嚴之實"},{"start":3048.803,"end":3051.406,"text":"民主進步黨過去一直在倡議一直在倡議的自由跟民主我們要問的是賴清德總統你口中的自由民主還在嗎那在這樣一個情況底下國民黨我們提出了這樣一個公投案"},{"start":3066.201,"end":3073.79,"text":"我想公投就是讓人民自己做主在這樣的一個議題我們應該交由全台灣2300萬的人民大家透過公投的方式來決定台灣的人民最終會透過公投來告訴賴清德總統台灣不要戰爭"},{"start":3086.824,"end":3102.401,"text":"台灣要和平我想這樣一個心聲應該就是透過我們現在這樣一個民主的機制讓人民可以透過公投表達意見而這一次由立法院提出的公投案完全是符合公投法"},{"start":3102.921,"end":3107.744,"text":"而且在大法官第645號的解釋也講得非常的清楚這樣的一個規定在立法院行使憲法所賦予的權限範圍內不違反憲法權利分立之基本原則下與憲法沒有抵觸那我們在這邊也要提出來李敬勇中選會的主委在這一個反戒嚴的公投案裡面呢"},{"start":3128.795,"end":3148.763,"text":"他自己擅自去表達他的意見他甚至說邏輯矛盾即使通過也無效我們要譴責一個中選會的主委對於立法院依據公投法而且憲法也已經解釋合法的一個公投案竟然可以自行去說出即使通過也無效這樣的話我們要予以譴責基本上中選會必須是一個中立的機關他是來承辦這個公投案的一個機關"},{"start":3158.291,"end":3172.029,"text":"而不是可以去直接去批判或者是直接去講述說這個公投案有效或無效如果他這樣子的一個政治表態就代表他不是一個中立的中選會的主委"},{"start":3173.951,"end":3189.456,"text":"所以我想今天國民黨提出這樣的一個反對兩岸進入準戰爭的一個狀態避免戰爭的這樣一個公投案我們就希望透過全台灣人民的力量公民的力量來告訴現在的賴清德總統台灣不要戰爭台灣要和平謝謝謝謝王一鳴委員的發言那補充介紹我們吳宗憲委員"},{"start":3201.977,"end":3224.569,"text":"那接下來由民眾黨團張其凱委員發言今天我們討論的是反戰爭反戒嚴的公投兩岸的關係確實面臨越來越緊張兩岸的惡意流行一直在往上走全世界比較專業的這個"},{"start":3227.45,"end":3247.551,"text":"軍事或者是兩岸的專家都說全世界戰爭熱區裡面兩岸是其中排在前面的我們有責任讓我們的台灣人民可以安居樂業遠離戰爭可是呢從賴清德上任到現在大家看到最近的新聞"},{"start":3249.066,"end":3275.405,"text":"連我們全台灣一萬三千多家的超商可能都要變成兩岸戰爭時候的民生物資的供應跟樞紐連宮廟都要放炮彈連我們EUE的兵役可能要從一年要延長到兩年甚至要研究女性要不要上戰場要不要服兵役"},{"start":3277.304,"end":3288.792,"text":"今天沈博洋、沈委員在現場黑熊學院黑熊學院發了很多的心思在強化民防甚至參加一些標案甚至說如果兩岸發生戰爭他們已經開了課程了要教大家怎麼種菜"},{"start":3295.714,"end":3315.225,"text":"渡過戰爭的這個難關戰爭在民進黨執政之下離我們人民越來越近所以今天是一個迫切的危機台灣民眾黨強力的支持今天的反戰爭的公投另外今天這個公投也是反戒嚴的公投南韓前總統尹錫悅宣布戒嚴應見不嚴我特別要提醒"},{"start":3326.089,"end":3343.917,"text":"尹錫岳宣布戒嚴的時候全世界只有一個立院黨團就是民進黨的立法院黨團支持、肯定尹錫岳頒布戒嚴令引起全世界主要媒體的嘲笑跟抗議甚至南韓的媒體笑說民進黨立院黨團是噁心的殘處這段時間民進黨一黨獨裁"},{"start":3352.185,"end":3358.027,"text":"看看最近光是去年的年底柯文哲家裡被搜索民眾黨的中央黨部被搜索這把火一路燒居然的英靈燒到了國民黨一個多月前國民黨的台南四黨部不只被搜索副組委跟組長已經被羈押了一個多月了上個禮拜火燒到了國民黨台北四黨部"},{"start":3380.595,"end":3407.92,"text":"不只被收手 連他的主委都被生壓現在提起抗告 還要繼續壓全世界哪一個民主國家有像民進黨這樣對待在野的第一大黨跟第二大黨民進黨的獨裁正一步一步的往戒嚴的方向走所以台灣民眾黨強力支持這個反戰爭也反戒嚴的公投我要特別提醒民進黨"},{"start":3409.517,"end":3425.559,"text":"我們公投法從2004年正式實施以後已經歷經了十幾次的公投案了民進黨之前,我是嘉義人民進黨以前還有個蔡公投每次都提說所有重大的案件都應該交給人民來公投"},{"start":3426.601,"end":3447.133,"text":"我今天深深的期待民進黨共同來面對我們台灣面臨的戰爭的危機面臨戒嚴跟民進黨獨裁這個危機還給人民一個最好的環境不要擋今天的公投案我們讓全民透過公投清清楚楚跟民進黨講我們不要戰爭我們不要戒嚴謝謝謝謝民進黨團張祺凱委員發言那補充介紹我們林倩琦委員"},{"start":3456.704,"end":3464.463,"text":"那接下來由民進黨團陳培宇委員發言好 那就沈博洋 趙薇先發言"},{"start":3466.124,"end":3488.283,"text":"好 謝謝主席 沈博洋第一次發言這個 我說真的就是說我們今天這個公投案其實當然它是一個非常複雜的一個案子那我向來我在協商的時候都不會講什麼攻擊性的話但是剛剛聽了前面這些講法其實說真的讓人非常不舒服第一個大家可以看到在黨今天來了多少人"},{"start":3489.875,"end":3513.245,"text":"我們這邊三位這邊來非常多人那麼多人的狀況之下現在國會多數是誰是國民黨跟民眾黨不要講說就是通過法律要去侵害人民權利的時候就用暴力現在有些面臨罷免有些面臨人民的譴責的時候現在就說自己是雞蛋我在場看起來哪一個像雞蛋這邊哪裡看起來像是雞蛋的一方我會覺得說沒有必要用這種政治性的語言"},{"start":3513.965,"end":3536.964,"text":"那我再講一次 我先從程序開始講這一個公投的部分最大的問題就是當時程序不合法程序不合法其實照理說今天這個協商不應該存在那這個我們也爭執很久了 所以這個我就不多說但第二個呢 我先講一下今天如果說今天要聚焦在戒嚴兩個字的話今天戒嚴這兩個字 今天需要立法院的追認這立法院的工作"},{"start":3537.665,"end":3557.032,"text":"也就是說立法院怎麼會把自己的工作交付公投呢那這樣不是很奇怪嗎那乾脆在座的立法委員可以都回家啦因為這立法委員的工作耶你要戒嚴不要戒嚴是立法院可以追認的耶就你自己說我不想知道我要不要追認我全部交給人民決定然後人民決定完之後到最後就說OK所以我不追認或者我追認怎麼可能會有這種人"},{"start":3558.012,"end":3582.048,"text":"所以你不能夠把自己的工作拿去交付公投嘛這其實是一個很簡單的道理那更不要講說立法院今天提出的算是一個重大政策重大政策要麼就是從無到有那麼就從有到無那請問這一個案子到底是從無到有還是從有到無不清楚嘛然後再來就是如果說因為這個在野黨已經定義了這個竟然叫反戒嚴公投"},{"start":3582.828,"end":3606.519,"text":"所以我認為關鍵字應該是那兩個字叫戒嚴戒嚴在法律上是有精準定義的所以我剛剛看到前面發言一直在講說在野黨什麼被搜索什麼等等之類的請問被搜索跟戒嚴的關係到底是什麼什麼叫準戒嚴什麼叫做類戒嚴沒有這種東西啊戒嚴在法律上是有精準定義的在台灣的戒嚴是有軍事接管的意味在裡面的"},{"start":3607.359,"end":3634.254,"text":"你說這個什麼在野黨的黨部被搜索請問在法律上不能被搜索的區域有包含國民黨黨部嗎在法律上不能搜索的區域是什麼在法律上有privilege的地方在哪裡有可能是什麼律師事務所啊什麼等等之類的所以現在還有一個憲法訴訟在進行當中就是說如果有這種privilege的狀況之下有哪些特定的處所是不能夠被搜索的這個在學理上在法律上都是有精確定義的黨部沒有在裡面"},{"start":3635.214,"end":3649.772,"text":"党部完全没有在不能搜索的范围但如果是这样的话以后只要犯完罪把所有的证据留在党部的话那党部都不能搜索那请问这个国家要怎么去实施公平正义由今天伪造文书的案件除了都已经讲得非常的清楚了"},{"start":3650.613,"end":3677.525,"text":"當你今天在偽造文書的這個比例你的錯誤的比例能夠到三成四成的時候你一張口袋你本來有一百張貨幣你有一張偽造的貨幣這可能是搞錯了可能是你買東西不小心收到的你有一百張偽造貨幣的時候裡面有三十你有一百張貨幣的時候裡面有三十張偽造貨幣的時候怎麼可能檢查官會不查呢那更不要講說這個可能跟名單有關係嘛所以才會需要搜索名單不是嗎"},{"start":3678.405,"end":3693.791,"text":"所以針對這件事情就是把這個單純的司法上面對於有犯罪嫌疑的處所去做搜索把它無限上綱成戒嚴這也太誇張了吧戒嚴有精準定義的我們還有戒嚴法"},{"start":3694.791,"end":3721.516,"text":"所以拜託還有剛剛提到說什麼主張什麼共產黨是否OK但法官都已經解釋過了啊今天這些中配的案子不是因為主張共產主義跟那個一點關係都沒有耶那個是因為煽動戰爭耶煽動戰爭 傷禍戰爭主張敵國可以武力統一我們他的問題出在這裡所以不要用那麼多混淆視聽的方式重點是剛講了那麼多還跟這個公投主文一點關係都沒有"},{"start":3723.14,"end":3750.071,"text":"所以我覺得這是很離譜的事情就是我們今天那麼多人來協商好歹要聚焦我們協商的重點在哪裡吧講了那麼多 用政治操作結果講的又跟這一個案子一點關係都沒有這到底意義在哪裡那我回到這一個主文這個主文問題太多太多了我根本 這叫我講三個小時都沒有問題我把下午的約都取消好了第一個就是 他說賴清德總統定位對岸為境外敵對勢力好 這第一句話"},{"start":3751.392,"end":3756.116,"text":"剛剛就有人提到說怎麼沒有昨天這個劉書兵在質詢的時候就說這個法律怎麼會有延續啊什麼等等之類的然後今天我剛好有聽到我忘了是誰講的說怎麼沒有徵詢說這個中國到底是不是境外敵對勢力"},{"start":3767.74,"end":3787.757,"text":"境外敵對勢力是反滲透法有直接定義的那請問法律直接定義行政機關要不要釋法用法當然要啊如果今天法律定義什麼叫做闖紅燈結果警察現在定義這個人闖紅燈了就說不行不行要趕快來徵得各位偉大的立法委員的同意什麼叫闖紅燈怎麼可能啊"},{"start":3788.718,"end":3810.115,"text":"其實反滲透法就已經定義什麼叫境外敵對勢力了境外敵對勢力裡面就有包含對方的法律把我們當作是他的一部分而且還說可以武力攻打這不就已經符合境外敵對勢力的定義如果對於行政機關要釋法用法他難道還要再過來再問大家確認一次嗎不用吧如果適用法律真的有疑義的也不是要找立法院啊"},{"start":3810.876,"end":3833.665,"text":"到最後是要進入憲法法庭才對啊我忘記憲法法庭已經被你們廢掉了但是至少這是一個正當法律的程序嘛所以賴清德總統定位對岸違禁對敵對勢力光是這一件事情剛剛前面的命題就有很大的錯誤了第二句人民擔心兩岸進入準戰爭狀態好 我就問了我先不要再講這個明確性的問題公投要有明確性什麼叫做準戰爭狀態"},{"start":3836.026,"end":3859.752,"text":"戰爭狀態準戰爭狀態灰色地帶還有一個比較明確的定義你在這邊的準戰爭是什麼意思第一個第二個因果關係在哪裡為什麼是賴清德總統定位對岸為境外敵對勢力鬥點所以因為你放在後面嘛你的文藝就是所以人民擔心兩岸進入準戰爭狀態問題是這兩件事情沒有因果關係啊那你為什麼不改成中國定定反分裂法"},{"start":3860.572,"end":3871.115,"text":"台灣人民擔心進入準戰爭狀態這還比較合理吧進攻方是中國耶雖然台灣有少部分的人主張要三民主義統一中國還要反攻大陸這少部分的人耶"},{"start":3871.946,"end":3890.382,"text":"今天會進入戰爭狀態的重點是因為中國要攻打我們不是嗎怎麼會是因為定位為境外敵對勢力那如果我們今天在反滲透法還沒有進入之前人民都完全不擔心兩岸的危機嗎那請問之前96年發生的危機之前的飛彈的危機那個大量的移民潮到底是怎麼出現的"},{"start":3890.982,"end":3905.834,"text":"所以你光是這個句子的這已經跟法律無關了這已經是單純因果關係的問題我到時候還想說會不會是因為這個主文可能是請助理寫的所以發生了這樣的情況剛剛聽了各位的發言我發現不是耶是各位的邏輯完全不通耶"},{"start":3907.017,"end":3922.167,"text":"所以再來還要再往下你是否同意政府應避免戰爭大概只有這句話是正常的政府應避免戰爭這一句你前面說人民因為擔心戰爭狀態你說政府應該避免戰爭但往下又出現問題了不讓台灣變成實施軍事戒嚴這邊問題就來了"},{"start":3927.851,"end":3948.159,"text":"如果你今天說要避免戰爭避免戰爭的手段有非常多那你什麼時候你要挑選到進入主文的時候那人民有沒有辦法理解避免戰爭的手段有哪些譬如說避免戰爭的手段有五個那我們希望不要這一個我們希望是另外四個這樣就是一個合理的一個說法"},{"start":3948.499,"end":3973.138,"text":"但不是這樣寫啊你說應該避免戰爭然後就直接不讓台灣變成戒嚴那這句話的危機就在這裡了那難道你的意思是說如果今天發生了戰爭台灣不准戒嚴如果是這個樣子的話這是一個很大的危機第一個我剛剛講這是各位的工作各位的工作幹嘛拿去交付公投第二個就是如果今天發生戰爭了然後你說不准戒嚴那難道台灣是束手待斃嗎"},{"start":3974.264,"end":3994.725,"text":"公投法的效率是兩年喔所以你的意思說剛好現在2025嘛到2027年的可能如果公投是8月那到2027年的8月只要中國要來攻打我們就不能夠實施軍事戒嚴那如果是這個意思的話你們不就是想要通過這個公投案讓接下來的兩年變成台灣的空窗期嗎"},{"start":3995.586,"end":4012.789,"text":"你不就是等於在邀請中國嗎所以我告訴你喔你這兩年打過來沒有什麼問題為什麼因為我們政府本來有一個方式就是可以讓當時的一些物資啊什麼等等之類的可以做一個比較好的調配結果現在都不能做了為什麼因為我們已經公投已經做下去了不准政府做任何的戒嚴動作"},{"start":4013.75,"end":4036.525,"text":"這是一件非常危險的事情對我來講光是這兩句話來提出公投跟叛國已經沒有什麼兩樣了這是一件非常非常危險的事情接下來更奇怪的事情來了你今天不讓台灣變成軍事戒嚴往下青年喪命且家園被毀的烏克蘭第一個烏克蘭看到這一個這個完全是國際危機這是外交危機"},{"start":4037.446,"end":4060.839,"text":"你直接把说把乌克兰的建矿把它直接定义到公投主文,你把别人拿来做成嘲笑的对象,这是第一个。第二个就是,为什么今天实施军事戒严之后就变成七年丧命前家园被毁的乌克兰?今天为什么会七年丧命,为什么可能家园被毁?其实那个理由,那个结果,第一个它的结果的可能性是什么?第二个它造成的原因是什么?原因不就是因为中国要入侵台湾吗?"},{"start":4061.619,"end":4089.052,"text":"所以如果說今天整件事情是中國要入侵台灣所造成的結果你的公投的主文應該去譴責中國才對啊但你們有譴責中國嗎光是我寫了一個2758號的東西在院會完全沒有辦法通過啊現在美國說要制裁中國還有破壞破壞學生我們這邊陳委員有投書啊還幫中國講話啊現在因為關稅的問題145%甚至有時候到200%現在就是來來去去一直這樣結果台灣現在可能會變成洗產地的地方那我們跟中國站在一起怎麼辦這是離島建設條例啊"},{"start":4091.053,"end":4113.902,"text":"所以,這一些事情呢,從頭到尾,第一,它的主文就已經非常的不明確,它的因果關係也有問題,再來就是它的問題也太多,一個公投只能一個案子,也就是一個公投只能問一個問題,結果這個公投至少看起來有五個問題在裡面,那你要人民這五個問題,我有五個問題裡面,我有兩個同意,我有三個不同意,那請問我該怎麼做?我到底要投同意還是不同意?"},{"start":4114.742,"end":4142.331,"text":"所以這就是為什麼說中選會那時候有提到說這個已經不是這跟立場一點關係都沒有這根本就是一個邏輯錯亂的公投而且是做完了之後會造成台灣危機的公投所以這個它應該要聚焦的點實在太多太多了但是我之後再講一次剛剛還有這個我記得是齊考遠還是誰提到的就是有講到說這個戒嚴裡面呢有可能是因為我們台灣現在在準備戰爭可能以後怕超商啦可能怕宮廟啦什麼等等之類的"},{"start":4143.391,"end":4165.583,"text":"第一个,这跟这个案子一点关系都没有。第二个,关键是什么?如果今天台湾是受到中国的威胁,请问台湾要不要做好准备?当然要啊,怎么可能台湾不用做好准备?那台湾要做好准备,请问台湾在每一个社区里面,比如办公室、区公所、超商、庙宇,这都是台湾人民聚集重要的场所。"},{"start":4166.323,"end":4184.683,"text":"所以我們對於台灣人民聚集重要的場所要去堅實它的防備然後應該讓那個如果說資訊不流通比如說沒有網路的時候又或者說需要物資的時候這些東西這些地方本來就很重要啊這怎麼會是一個不能討論的事情而且重點是這件事情到底跟戒嚴的關係在哪裡"},{"start":4185.604,"end":4204.339,"text":"然後更不要講說剛剛還提到一些更無關的話要不是你點名我根本就不要講所以又說什麼拿標案啊什麼等等之類的這種謠言就不要再說了我已經在Facebook上面跟你更正很多次了我真的沒有必要做這樣的一個政治攻擊但是再來我要講種菜Victory Gardening這是英國在二戰的時候在做的事情"},{"start":4205.2,"end":4221.38,"text":"這個Victory Gardening本來就是一個課程只是中文如果翻譯過來叫勝利種菜聽起來好像中文聽起來有點奇怪但它的意思不是只有種菜那麼簡單而已但我覺得這個跟案子無關我們就不要在這邊講所以我拜託就是第一個作為國會的多數黨"},{"start":4224.42,"end":4252.852,"text":"你們現在在做制衡制衡沒有什麼問題就像你們要煽動預算這個也都沒有什麼問題但是我們需要的是一個正常的制衡正常的制衡好不好就是作為一個多數黨你們不能夠去就剛剛你看剛剛我們網友還在笑當時你提出這個消防的這個提案這個消防的提案怎樣這消防的提案說真的雖然到最後沒有過對不對你看喔沒有過啊我都幫你澄清啦但問題是你的理由是什麼"},{"start":4254.178,"end":4270.2,"text":"你的理由是什麼你們剛剛講那麼多廢話你的理由是什麼你的理由是說是不是我們的消防機關要準備戰爭請問消防機關要準備戰爭所以你提案想要刪他的預算這是什麼意思對不對所以我拜託就是說"},{"start":4271.642,"end":4285.3,"text":"這哪是什麼廢話我全部都是按照這個主文在講剛剛羅志祥那個才叫做廢話啦所以我拜託我告訴大家如果一個人要講這麼久沈博洋如果要柯建銘上身我們是不是規定嘛平等平等我們平等不要柯建銘上身例如說"},{"start":4286.442,"end":4299.647,"text":"主席要不要先辭職 你們每一個都可以講多久一個人最終五分鐘主席你剛剛沒有先說發言時間的限制現在刻意針主席你剛剛沒有宣布發言時間的限制現在刻意針對沈博洋委員主持發言時間就害怕就說沒有關係害怕就說沒有關係要我們講久也可以啊大家只要控制時間你可以講久也沒問題啊我剛剛全部都是針對要嘛就是等一下"},{"start":4315.433,"end":4337.203,"text":"主席 等一下 先給我發言時間 第一個我剛剛講了多少公投主文的事情我剛剛都是在講公投主文喔 這第一個第二個 我剛剛講不是公投主文的事情全部都是在回應張旗桿跟羅志強剛剛的發言如果認為我剛剛的回應是廢話那就表示張旗桿跟羅志強剛剛講的都是廢話就那麼簡單"},{"start":4340.004,"end":4358.906,"text":"我剛剛在回應他們兩個講的東西,如果要協商,協商如果是大家各說各話,這不叫協商喔?協商應該是第一個,回應剛剛前面的人講的東西,第二個,提出我們自己的意見,等一下,我還在發言,而且這邊是國防外交委員會,我們是國防外交委員會的協商,"},{"start":4359.932,"end":4376.575,"text":"今天我們國防外交委員會針對這件事情你們剛剛提出了那麼多見解我都還沒有講剛剛在大安區的故事今天前面提了什麼事情後面的人本來就應該做回應都是他們前面先講的如果剛剛覺得我講的是廢話那就表示他們剛剛講的都是廢話"},{"start":4377.83,"end":4402.924,"text":"第二個 我剛剛講了多少公投主文的疏漏公投主文的問題 這怎麼會是廢話這個也是我講完之後 等一下後面的人要去回應我對公投主文所提出來的疑問請問這跟時間沒有關係 協商本來就是這個樣子我今天並沒有直接限時間如果需要限時的話 那不然等一下大家一起來限時間也沒有關係我們就把它拆成第一次發言 第二次發言 第三次發言 第四次發言"},{"start":4403.604,"end":4416.603,"text":"但是我們今天都是針對這個公投主文來提出我們的疑問如果大家願意奉陪的話我們可以一直講到晚上都不是問題因為這個公投主文問題實在是太多了好 謝謝"},{"start":4418.8,"end":4441.851,"text":"好 謝謝沈培洋委員的發言那我們就按照我們第一輪的剛剛的發言裡面就是因為我們沒有限定時間那第二輪的話是不是我們就限定五分鐘來做一個發言 好不好那這樣的話我們大家發言都真是公正的那接下來由陳培宇委員發言沈主席現在是第一輪發言沒有限制時間 對嗎對"},{"start":4443.672,"end":4457.899,"text":"沒有我還沒有第一輪發言我還沒有第一輪發言聽不懂啊我剛已經說了我跟主席確認第一輪發言對嗎如果有主席點頭主席啊如果有人情緒有問題的話"},{"start":4463.042,"end":4468.184,"text":"我們很擔心喔我再一次確認我的程序有沒有問題主席請問我是主人發言嗎我們先處理程序問題主席我們很擔心主人發言先處理程序問題先處理程序問題把五分鐘定下來把五分鐘定下來我們在這間大舊啊"},{"start":4480.407,"end":4483.729,"text":"而且主席已經你拿著麥克風對著我大叫什麼意思莫名其妙嘛 主席我是第一輪發言對嗎沒有時間限制對嗎你剛剛幹嘛對我好對嗎沒有時間限制來主席點頭囉請問陳佩儀說明一下好不好從陳佩儀為列為第一輪你剛才在大聲什麼第一輪發言請問陳佩儀你剛才在大聲什麼"},{"start":4499.038,"end":4515.215,"text":"陳佩儀請問你剛才在大聲什麼 請你跟徐宇甄道歉大聲跟小聲 請你跟徐宇甄道歉我沒有覺得我很大聲每個人都追蹤發言 陳佩儀我覺得很大聲 我的耳朵都發動了 我覺得很大聲沒有計時的問題 剛剛已經確定了第一輪發言沒有計時 主席剛才是了"},{"start":4524.008,"end":4550.82,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席剛剛已經裁示了每一個委員的第一輪發言是沒有限定時間的謝謝主席那國民黨既然要談戒嚴我們就把記憶翻出來提醒國民黨這麼愛談戒嚴史上第二長的戒嚴人類歷史上第二長的戒嚴發動的就是中國國民黨1967年到2011年這正是中國國民黨對於台灣所做出來的事情"},{"start":4551.54,"end":4556.323,"text":"甚至在1948年12月10號開始國共內戰金馬被列入戒嚴但台灣本島沒有到1949到198738年的戒嚴所以如果國民黨的人不知道什麼叫做戒嚴我先幫大家回復時序記憶那至於戒嚴時期會發生什麼事情國民黨人民眾黨人口口聲聲說現在賴清德總統是獨裁民進黨政府是戒嚴時期我們來看看什麼叫做戒嚴一旦發生戒嚴在國民黨戒嚴時期"},{"start":4581.5,"end":4602.838,"text":"台灣人民的言論出版結社通訊遷徙相關自由都會受到迫害都會受到影響所以當你們的主席兩個在野黨的主席在台上喃喃自語的時候所有在罵賴慶的總統所有在罵執政黨行政機關所有的傷害性的語言完全都沒有受到任何的批評你們可以"},{"start":4604.379,"end":4609.321,"text":"愛講什麼就講什麼 愛罵什麼就罵什麼你們現在所有做的事情都沒有受到所謂言論出版結社通訊牽使自由的限制請問這跟戒嚴有什麼關係還有真正的戒嚴跟獨裁是當年你們不讓台灣人講話不讓台灣人可以做自己的出版不讓台灣人有自己的結社不讓台灣人辦報所有限制台灣人民的自由是你們當年做過的事情但我相信你們全部都忘記了"},{"start":4626.468,"end":4640.896,"text":"你們可能連自己提出這麼荒謬的公投提案都不記得當然多年以前你們對於台灣人民的傷害你們當然也不會記得如果你們真的要避免戰爭我也想要再次提醒你們最近到中國去拜訪的是你們的民進黨副主席連勝文還有洪秀柱還有周錫瑋所有國民黨人一起"},{"start":4645.538,"end":4650.302,"text":"陸陸續續到中國去要飯這件事情為什麼要舔共為什麼要一直去跟中國握手你們到底要交換了什麼利益到目前為止沒有任何國民黨委員跟台灣人民報告我們真的不知道當我們把中國定義為敵對國家勢力的時候你們卻還口口聲聲去握手去要飯你們到底是如何出賣台灣人民當你們不願意面對這樣的事情的時候反過來譴責台灣政府所有做的相關準備而你們卻不去譴責"},{"start":4672.72,"end":4677.466,"text":"中國共產黨對於台灣做出來的武力騷擾的行為戰機繞台的行為請問如果現場每一個人去想像一下家裡的小孩被霸凌了你的親朋好友的小孩被霸凌了被欺負了 被威脅了 被恐嚇了"},{"start":4687.557,"end":4690.84,"text":"我們第一時間是叫我們自己被恐嚇被霸凌的小孩把頭埋進沙子裡當一隻鴕鳥嗎還是告訴他準備好你自己不管是語言上的準備武器上的準備行為上的準備我們保護好自己等到所有霸凌攻擊威脅武嚇來到我們面前的時候我們才有能力保衛我們自己"},{"start":4706.953,"end":4716.76,"text":"這是一般人一般人會做的事情也是一個國家一個正常國家可以做的事情我真的不知道為什麼面對霸凌我們恐嚇我們威脅我們的國家所有國民黨人不願意正面譴責他們只敢在公開場合譴責賴清德總統譴責台灣行政機關到底你們是跟誰站在一起更可笑的是426站獨裁這是你們國民黨喊出來的口號但我們看見的是你們才是跟獨裁政府站在一起的政黨"},{"start":4736.013,"end":4764.236,"text":"而如今卻在台灣的立法院提出像這樣的公投提案荒謬至極而且沒有辦法自己針對議案好好做說明剛剛沈博洋委員對你們的回應算是非常非常的客氣完全沒有提出任何人身攻擊我想要請問當你們口口聲聲說他是廢話的時候就如同他剛剛說你們自己才說的正是廢話還有相關的法源依據如果你們不想聽法盲理盲我們就不再贅述但我們要再次提醒你們當你們提出像這樣的公投案的時候"},{"start":4765.037,"end":4790.774,"text":"我不知道你們是真的怕罷免還是你們真的在對中國共產黨做出利益外合的行為所以我想我要在這一次協商會議上公開譴責你們這個提案不僅不負責任你們對於台灣人民更是不負責任以上 謝謝謝謝陳佩儀委員的發言那第二波的這五分鐘我們請郭益晴委員我第一輪喔沒有沒有 第二輪剛剛我沒有唸到你的蛤 我是第二輪喔"},{"start":4794.813,"end":4815.934,"text":"所以我是第二輪發言啊不是 主席 我們所謂的一輪是指每一個人第一輪或第二輪吧對 因為你是事後才舉手的那剛剛是陳培宇跟沈博洋是同樣舉手的剛剛他在沈博洋發言的時候他就已經舉手囉沒有沒有 主席主席所以接下來所有發言的人都叫第二波就對了對對對 第二波"},{"start":4817.896,"end":4825.521,"text":"可是這不公平吧 因為我是第一波 主席 我覺得要抗議 主席 我要抗議因為剛剛 剛剛威延宣布了 所以已經屬於第二波 好不好好 沒關係 主席 那我們要不要回看剛剛那個直播好 既然是第二波的發言 對不對好 那我就"},{"start":4833.832,"end":4854.665,"text":"簡短的講我想大家應該都還有印象這3月25號的晚上7點25分我們看到當天應該是院會早就6點應該要結束的時間但7點20分之後我們看到了韓國瑜院長用突襲式的方式來宣布這個會議要延長並且做出的所謂的兩個"},{"start":4856.406,"end":4876.199,"text":"空頭 應該空殼的公投這兩個完全是沒有正當性而且是違法的一個會議所以在這個部分光是程序的部分就已經是非常非常的莫名其妙而且是無效的會議違法的一個程序我不知道為什麼今天我們坐在這裡協商還要再就所謂的提案主文完全混淆民意 操弄恐懼而且是有誤導性的我們來看一下這個提案的主文"},{"start":4885.845,"end":4888.908,"text":"他說賴清德總統定位對岸為境外敵對勢力我想境外敵對勢力剛剛其實沈博洋委員也講得非常的清楚到底是誰天天文攻武嚇到底是誰天天派他們的共機要來騷擾台灣到底是誰都在國際上打壓台灣我想這個敵對勢力是非常非常清楚也就是現在國民黨的副主席正在對岸"},{"start":4910.905,"end":4913.086,"text":"正在那個敵對勢力跟他們寒暄跟他們握手跟他們問好的敵對勢力就是中國這無庸置疑但是主文的後半段呢卻把所謂的人民擔心兩岸進入準戰爭的狀態"},{"start":4927.87,"end":4930.311,"text":"什麼叫做進入準戰爭的狀態他把這兩個完全一起掛鉤然後再來還要再來污蔑看不起所謂的烏克蘭講人家青年喪命 講人家家園被毀我覺得這個完全是提案相當抽象的一個結構沒有任何具體政策的創製性或者是法律覆決的一個內容全部都是情緒性的一個鋪陳"},{"start":4953.704,"end":4958.046,"text":"用情緒性非常不合理的一個鋪陳來作為主題案的主文這不但是在恐嚇人民台灣好像即將變成烏克蘭然後罔顧真正的事實而誤導視聽這樣子的一個公投我覺得真的不要把一般的民眾的水準看得這麼的低劣然後再來立法院如果我們要提出所謂的公投"},{"start":4978.556,"end":4991.684,"text":"你就必須要針對所謂的重大政策這個政策的提出最好還是要有實際的建議不然你就是淪為所謂的政治操作嘛這一波我們看到的全部都是所謂的政治的操作啊我問啊剛剛唯一講對的大家都有共識的是"},{"start":4995.506,"end":5016.536,"text":"沒有人想要戰爭也就是說避免戰爭這件事情是唯一的共識但是也沒有人願意成為所謂的烏克蘭的命運但是這個公投的合理性到底是在哪裡現在弄了一個公投然後又端不出所謂的正大的政策這個感覺上整個公投的主題案就是一個很可怕的心理測驗啦"},{"start":5018.274,"end":5021.637,"text":"在我認為我看來就是一種心理測驗他能夠真正引導出能夠落實的公共政策跟選擇嗎另外我再問一下如果要辦一次的公投大家都知道公投需要花多少的成本他需要動員他需要辯論他需要投票他不但成本非常的高而且他的消耗非常的大"},{"start":5039.97,"end":5051.194,"text":"為什麼要辦一個這樣子的一個公投而且是情緒性的公投的提案的一個主文好像在威脅人民這分明就是在配合所謂的認知作戰的一種語法根本是混淆視聽的一個公投提案以上"},{"start":5058.99,"end":5072.962,"text":"謝謝我們郭益勤委員的發言那各黨團均以表示意見本席針對本日協商會議宣告如下本日協商過程公開發言內容均以記錄"},{"start":5075.444,"end":5096.433,"text":"但是因為無法取得共識本案我們就送請院長協商今天謝謝各位黨團代表出席本日這個協商會議到此結束謝謝上會主席主席這個後面應該也要讓他們來回應一下我們剛剛提出的疑問會比較好吧對啊"},{"start":5099.141,"end":5114.423,"text":"我知道是過水啦但是希望他們第二輪發言他們第二輪發言可以回應一下問題而且你沒有問我們有沒有二輪發言的意見欸主席他明明就是沈博洋委員發言就舉手"},{"start":5123.124,"end":5124.124,"text":"我們明天兩點開始"},{"start":5146.199,"end":5147.041,"text":"鸡蛋糕"}]}},{"id":"160455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc061a778bd17a650c4c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86f142f2a7614d0e9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:13:01 - 09:15:53","影片長度":"00:02:52","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:13:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:15:53+08:00","duration":172,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.78596875,"end":3.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.79409375,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.40096875,"end":116.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.09284375000001,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":172.29096875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.103,"end":7.487,"text":"時間到了我們暗靈請各位盡量的把握時間其實人很多大家天天都是大眾小異"},{"start":8.462,"end":30.624,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位同仁我想今天的貨物稅條例我們台灣民眾黨有一份提案主要針對貨物稅的性質還有它到底現在存在的一些價值我們希望能夠做一些修正尤其貨物稅的性質是屬於所謂的特種消費稅除了最直接的目的要增加政府的收入之外更重要的是要透過"},{"start":32.425,"end":59.577,"text":"惠物稅來達成所謂的矯正外部性抑制消費水準改善所得分配這樣的效果那政府甚至當時帶有所謂的欲進於真的意味也就是說二組非必要的奢米的消費所以惠物稅可能有一部分當年早期是為了抑制說有關像比較奢侈性的消費那實在的需求過去的惠物稅徵收的範圍非常的廣泛"},{"start":61.678,"end":77.175,"text":"曾經也包括火柴、紙類、糖類、味精、茶葉、紡織品、皮草、化妝品、電燈泡、吸塵器、縫紉機、鋼琴、電子琴等項目但這些廓物都因為不合時宜而成為生活的必需品之後"},{"start":77.956,"end":97.706,"text":"被移除在科證項目之內但是現在的項目裡面還有很多的家電而且是民生必需比如說電視烤箱等已經是一般的民生家電並不是奢侈品但是從來沒有被檢討過加上科技進步很多的電器產品功能日益整合而且跟電子資訊產品"},{"start":99.106,"end":115.353,"text":"幾乎是相界線模糊比如說手機 電腦還有電腦的電子顯示器等設備造成科稅與否產生爭議比如說電視要徵稅 課務稅但是液晶顯示器不用所以影響了市場的公平競爭所以台灣民眾黨的兩個"},{"start":117.455,"end":126.704,"text":"重點在修法的部分主要是貨物稅條例的修正條案第一點希望鼓勵老舊高耗能的電器加速的汰換所以將2025年6月中將截止的貨物稅減徵優惠延長到2030年的減碳的目標年"},{"start":135.152,"end":161.757,"text":"第二点就是考量国际净零碳排的排放趋势优先移除这些不合时宜的货物税电视 录音机 电唱机 音响组合 电烤箱等我们希望这些货物不应该再有货物税那过去跟现在因为时间的进步我们希望有达到公平税制节约能源跟活络经济的目标希望能够修正如台湾民主党的版本以上 谢谢大家"},{"start":161.937,"end":167.144,"text":"好謝謝謝謝黃珊珊黃委員來接下來請顏寬恆顏寬恆顏委員不在請賴世保賴昭偉來做說明"}]}},{"id":"160445","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0df55704d345ce84a65a835c60a672e287bed59d581dcd86f064411f9f51987335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:11:49 - 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社會秩序違覆法第64條提案說明黃牛票一直都是消費者還有活動舉辦方跟政府單位積極關注的狀況那這個違法的行為呢伴隨著科技的應用跟社會發展是日益猖獗那包含運輸、遊樂票券、藝文票券、運動票券還有各式只要是涉及休閒的一些商品票券都成為黃牛集團的一個魔力的目標"},{"start":30.673,"end":44.785,"text":"那現在甚至呢在台灣那麼這些黃牛甚至已經出現了一個集團性的組織性的犯罪那今年呢二月份才有這個揭露就是有一對"},{"start":45.546,"end":68.601,"text":"流行的夫妻黨他從美國105年開始就全職用全職的方式從事轉售代購所有的熱門演唱會或運動賽事的黃牛票從中摸取不當的利益而這樣子的經營甚至他的旗下的粉絲團竟然高達五萬人來做追蹤所以這已經變成是一個集體性"},{"start":69.702,"end":94.204,"text":"好的一个犯罪的行为那所以这个部分呢我们除了现行的譬如说包含文化创意产业发展法还有刑法里面的违照文书之外但是呢我们在像社会秩序维护法事实上是欠缺像这样的去处罚还有阻止这样的一个犯罪行为那么"},{"start":95.885,"end":113.347,"text":"社会秩序维护法在从80年制定到现在第64条对于锁定的违反行为的罚环是没有任何的修正和调整所以恐怕会失去原来立法去维系社会秩序"},{"start":114.068,"end":132.483,"text":"的用意所以呢在这边新增了我的提案新增了一文票券运动票券医疗票券参旅食宿票券各式休闲及商品票券全部都纳入我们这次来修法的规范"},{"start":133.123,"end":160.51,"text":"而这个罚款由原来的新台币一万八千元以下提高到三万八千元以下的罚款借此来能够提升这些犯罪的成本来遏止这些意图要转受盈利或者转受图利者来真正的落实我们社会秩序的维护那么以上的提案请内政委员会的委员们能够予以支持通过谢谢"},{"start":161.945,"end":162.735,"text":"好謝謝文宏衛委員"}]}},{"id":"160444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc035b7c7e84864b75265a835c60a672e287bed59d581dcd86f52fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:09:15 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漏洞就一直在 執法不延 黃牛當然就不怕那現在的規定 我們執法已經賣出的草票行為對於那種準備拿來轉賣 只差還沒有交易完成的惡行卻裝作沒看到 這個沒有辦法可以管民怨士氣"},{"start":67.33,"end":77.416,"text":"因此我主張要修正社會秩序維護法的第64條明確地將意圖轉受圖利納入處罰的範圍不論是不是有成交只要有黃流的意圖就應該要依法來開罰再者適用範圍必須要擴大不限於演唱會或者是藝文活動所有採取網路搶票"},{"start":94.867,"end":113.265,"text":"限量預約機制的資源通通都應該要納入這不單單只是打擊黃牛而是在守住一個公平社會的基本規則只要還有一張被炒高的票一個被霸佔的名額就是對守法國民的嘲諷"},{"start":114.326,"end":139.991,"text":"最後我要懇請在場的每一位委員還有相關部會支持本席的提案讓我們的修法能夠順利的出委員會三讀通過我們要的不僅僅只是法律條文的修正而是要還給人民一個乾淨公平的購票環境要守住社會秩序也守住人民的基本權益謝謝"},{"start":142.332,"end":147.313,"text":"好 謝謝高金素美委員下一位我們請王宏威委員進行提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0490a09f7461a2733c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86f2ee13edf939dd7e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:37:47 - 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Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:37:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:39:23+08:00","duration":96,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.42721875,"end":6.207218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.172843750000002,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.88971875,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.172218750000003,"end":20.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":62.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.27846875,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.70409375,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.94409375000001,"end":79.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.69784375,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.87409375,"end":93.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.45096875,"end":95.96534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.649,"end":27.161,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席我想為了要強化我國節能減碳降低用電量我們政府在108年6月13日的時候公佈增訂貨物稅條例第十一條之一民進國能購買能源效率分級低級或第二級的新電冰箱新的暖暖氣或新的除濕機每台最高減增貨物稅限額2000元我想立法以來歷經了兩次的修法都是因為"},{"start":28.021,"end":48.654,"text":"超過10年以上老舊電器仍然有很多所以延長弱勢期限那另外根據我們公園調查發現最低所得的家屋中使用超過16年冷氣的比例為33.17%如果不持續辦理該家屋恐怕會讓我們經濟弱勢的家庭無法更換新型的節電家電"},{"start":49.995,"end":65.463,"text":"那所以為了要持續強化我們節能減碳降低用電量同時幫助我國能源貧窮的家庭更新節能家電本行拟具貨物稅條例第十一條之一的修正案將原定落日期限刪除"},{"start":67.365,"end":83.438,"text":"將補助對象限定在將老舊非節電家電更換成新節電家電的購買者上讓經濟收支的家庭以及老舊家電使用者仍能申請相關的減稅補助 敬請公決 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160464","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160464","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0f7753f20a4ceed60c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86f00c7bc17778110125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:35:51 - 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謝謝六位小委員提案說明下一個請徐宇珍徐宇珍 徐宇珍委員不在請黃建斌委員做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160463","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160463","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0229b25115e61b16dc0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86f116f54e65665532f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:33:30 - 09:35:42","影片長度":"00:02:12","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:33:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:35:42+08:00","duration":132,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.00409375,"end":118.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.91096875000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.99909375000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.04971875000001,"end":124.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.23096875,"end":125.24346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.486,"end":28.881,"text":"好謝謝主席就針對貨物稅條例第十一條之一跟貨物稅條例十二條的提案來做說明那麼大家都知道就是為了鼓勵家戶來更新節能的電器的速度那麼我們的貨物稅呢將核定的能源效率分第一級或第二級的新的電冰箱新的暖暖機或者是新的廚師機非供銷售而且沒有退貨或換貨的可以申請兩千元的退稅補助"},{"start":30.222,"end":46.058,"text":"而根據工研院家庭用電消費習慣調查家中超過10年以上的老舊用電器具用電最大宗的就是電冰箱跟冷氣機但是在112年超過10年以上的電冰箱是佔了35.97%"},{"start":48.2,"end":72.324,"text":"冷气机占了34.42%那么代表我们现在的这个旧的电器太旧换新仍然有持续推动的需求以及必要所以针对货物税的退税措施是114年6月14号到期那为了鼓励民众继续的来换太换所以把减增货物税的措施延长"},{"start":72.964,"end":99.396,"text":"到118年的6月14日那么另外呢也针对了这个希望能够让无障碍建构无障碍的友善乘车的环境来促进身心障碍者及行动不便者的自立生活照顾这个族群行动的需求所以呢也提案货物税条例第12条来修正将购买符合载运轮"},{"start":100.276,"end":118.492,"text":"以使用者的車輛按安全檢測基準的車輛免徵貨物稅能夠延長到118年的12月31日做以上的說明也希望我們財政委員會的同仁能夠大力的支持 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160462","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160462","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc018f1ecbf8712b482c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86ffc0768286ba31c035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:31:16 - 09:33:21","影片長度":"00:02:05","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:31:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:33:21+08:00","duration":125,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.65096875,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.08471875000001,"end":118.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.89846875,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.56471875000001,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.87659375000001,"end":124.97346875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.87,"end":21.648,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員大家早安本席今天提出的這項貨物稅條例第11條之一修正案主要是為了延續並強化我們對減碳政策的支持環境部在去年12月底公告了2030年的溫室氣體減量的新目標從原本的比2005年"},{"start":23.97,"end":41.721,"text":"減少24%提升到比2005年要減少28%這代表我們全國要一起加快腳步落實節能減碳的行動目前對於節能電器的貨物稅退稅措施將在今年6月到期"},{"start":42.561,"end":54.888,"text":"為了延續這項對民眾有感也實質促進減碳的政策我們這次的提案建議把這項退稅的措施延長五年六個月也就是直接延長到2030年底繼續鼓勵民眾選購節能家電加速我們減碳目標的達成"},{"start":63.132,"end":85.627,"text":"財政部目前的提案只延長到116年底總共只有兩年半無法與環境部2030年的減碳目標相配合這顯示出中央部會之間缺乏協調各走各的路政策無法銜接本席認為財政部應該要有整體的思維讓優惠的期限一路的延續到2030年底"},{"start":87.808,"end":113.766,"text":"才真正有助於減碳成果的累積另外也有一個小調整就是新增一項有關退稅通知和方式的規定讓民眾能夠更清楚也更容易收到相關退稅的資訊讓政策的落實可以更為順暢以上是這次本席修法的重點懇請各位委員支持讓我們一起為淨零減碳的目標繼續努力謝謝大家"},{"start":115.151,"end":124.468,"text":"好 謝謝 習慶雲委員的體驗說明現在會請翁曉琳委員做體驗說明翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在翁旺旺委員"}]}},{"id":"160461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc098111cdceff5bda9c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86fb604f0d634e96aee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:29:36 - 09:31:08","影片長度":"00:01:32","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:29:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:31:08+08:00","duration":92,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.24096875,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.42346875,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.84909375000001,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.32971875000001,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.81471875000001,"end":91.88159375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.923,"end":34.749,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉我想介於節能家電的減增貨物稅這個措施將於今年六月中旬就要屆期其實在這一次前兩個禮拜我也有去機關稍微去看一下還真的蠻多的民眾也正在申請當中我想這個民眾本身的鼓勵性質大家都知道是非常有效的"},{"start":35.009,"end":54.239,"text":"那鼓勵民眾在老舊家電更換為節能家電型的一個新家電都能夠提升能源使用的效率反此特你具貨物稅條例第11條之一修正草案將購買第一第二級的新電冰箱新的暖氣機以及新廚師機減免貨物稅每新台幣2000元之規定支援100"},{"start":61.063,"end":80.596,"text":"114年6月14日延長4年6個月至118年12月31日以符合節能減碳促進綠色消費之進行推動降低環境的一個負擔達到節能效果以上"},{"start":83.851,"end":91.564,"text":"好 謝謝羅定偉委員的提供說明下一位請邱振興邱振興 邱振興委員不在"}]}},{"id":"160460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160460","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc00d37f8ec43d2bb74c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86fb210e5aacf32087b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:27:05 - 09:29:04","影片長度":"00:01:59","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:27:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:29:04+08:00","duration":119,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.57471875,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.36909375,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.48596875000001,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.19846875,"end":118.99971875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.449,"end":14.758,"text":"我這邊的提案是貨物稅部分我是刪除第八條 第十一條 第十二條跟第十二條之一主張把飲料 果汁 電器 汽機車等品項的貨物稅全部刪除"},{"start":15.538,"end":41.206,"text":"因為當初貨物稅在訂定這個稅責的時候其實有一些奢侈稅的概念就是政府鼓勵大家不要多買東西因為這太奢侈但是現在已經進入到工商社會了很多條文已經不是要修訂的問題而是應該要直接刪除比如說第十一條電器電器裡面包括像冰箱、電視機、除濕機、冷暖器機等等"},{"start":42.006,"end":66.543,"text":"這些應該已經算是所謂的家庭必需品所謂的名稱必需品那現在財政部是說還是要貨物稅存在理由是可以透過減免貨物稅鼓勵大家以舊換新但是這個部分會用到非常多的行政成本而且手續繁複不如直接把所有的貨物稅全部刪除那當然可以增加更大的誘因"},{"start":67.163,"end":90.478,"text":"另外像汽機車也是一樣汽機車現在已經是民眾代步工具或生財工具當然財政部的講法還是一樣用減免貨物稅的方式鼓勵大家以舊換新或者是改成電動車但實際上現在像有些機車的貨物稅平均大概3萬塊汽車的貨物稅更高達25%到30%如果一併全部刪除的話當然大家舊換新的動機就會更強"},{"start":93.3,"end":109.689,"text":"所以 貨物稅是一個不符時宜的稅而且影響到民生那如果要以舊換新我想刪除可能可以達到更好的效果所以我們這邊是提出這個要全面的刪除飲料 果汁 電器 汽機車等筆向貨物稅謝謝好 謝謝幼兒園村委員的提案說明下面請廖縣縣委員做提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc07c15adaef509932ac0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86fc932d0b88b6ae5ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"09:23:51 - 09:26:55","影片長度":"00:03:04","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:23:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:26:55+08:00","duration":184,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.68846875,"end":4.7897187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.549093750000001,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.67471875,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.72846875,"end":19.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.53409375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.32721875,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.54721875,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":71.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.96909375,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.63534375,"end":84.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.28346875000001,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.86096875000001,"end":90.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.58221875000001,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.94909375,"end":98.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.30659375,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.22034375000001,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.26534375,"end":180.08721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.428,"end":19.075,"text":"主席各位同仁將本席"},{"start":20.575,"end":24.918,"text":"提案認為應當將貨物稅條例第12條做條文修正本席認為第一點將汽車貨物稅由25%到30%調降至10%至15%將機車貨物稅17%調降至5%那提請"},{"start":44.611,"end":73.61,"text":"大會各委員同仁大家共同來商議那麼也請財政部官員能夠積極來應對這一個條例的修正那麼貨物稅在立法之初當時我們政府是將包括汽機車還有冷氣冰箱很多加温品都列為奢侈品但是隨著時代的進步這一些包括汽機車不但"},{"start":74.691,"end":97.818,"text":"已經不是奢侈品而且是各家戶生活必需你像機車有1400萬輛可以說是家戶必備更何況很多家戶應當有的生態工具那麼財政部的當現在的理由還說因為這個污染所以課稅"},{"start":99.378,"end":109.87,"text":"但是環境部已經課了空污費那何來再有說污染必須付費的一層"},{"start":111.277,"end":129.796,"text":"一頭牛扒了兩層皮這等於是重複課稅那所以財政部不應該再提到這個污染的部分那麼對於中古機車來太舊換新財政部又說啦說已經提供4000元貨物稅的減免"},{"start":132.378,"end":159.812,"text":"但是這效益會非常有限原因是首購族他沒辦法試用因為他沒有舊的機車而且七騎燃油車的售價六萬到十萬當中貨物稅竟然高達了一萬零兩百到一萬七所以本席提議將機車貨物稅由百分之十七降到百分之五可以減少七千至一萬元一萬二"},{"start":160.732,"end":171.864,"text":"的這個負擔可以有效的汰換二行程還有四行程的機車以上我提請大會各位委員我們大家共同來討論決議謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc03cdf2ffd03e743f4c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86fc932d0b88b6ae5ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:20:57 - 09:23:43","影片長度":"00:02:46","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:20:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:23:43+08:00","duration":166,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.04971875,"end":95.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.83034375000001,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.96846875,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.06971875000002,"end":162.50346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.223,"end":20.621,"text":"主席各位同仁非常感謝今天帶著排審這個貨物稅條例的相關條文的修正案在美國川普總統毫無道理的提出對等關稅所謂對等關稅影響我國的自由貿易經濟發展的時候這個貨物稅條例的排審是有急迫性及重要性的"},{"start":21.621,"end":36.468,"text":"針對汽車稅捐的討論主要集中在關稅及這個貨物稅那就關稅來講主要是指對進口車課徵17.5%的關稅那國產車就沒有那貨物稅來講不管是進口車或是國產車都有按照汽車排放量課徵25到30%不等的這個貨物稅 稅捐那我們看到世界各國包括亞洲及歐美國家不管是進口車或他們自己的國產車價格都比台灣的車子便宜很多那對我們的這個"},{"start":51.495,"end":69.828,"text":"國民來講除了房貸壓力很大以外買車子也是一個沉重的負擔所以事實上課徵25到30%的這個貨物稅事實上也是增加我們人民的負擔早年課這個貨物稅的目的大家都知道有點像奢侈稅一樣畢竟早年就可以開車的人比較不多是一個比較奢侈的事情像我們金門是民國70幾年才開始可以擁有車子那台灣比較早金門是比較晚"},{"start":75.071,"end":91.686,"text":"那對當時的是比較少 油火車只能來講是比較奢侈的事情但是現在社會 汽機車都已經是一個基本的交通工具不要說像台北這種渡費區如果在沒有捷運的地方 很多家庭也需要汽機車所以縱使條項關稅有保護如果說擔心說條項關稅有保護國產車的問題 那至少我們可以"},{"start":96.09,"end":109.16,"text":"先從調降貨物稅開始那這個問題我們在這裡已經提了很多次但是我們看到本席看到這個財政部一直用拿電動汽機車來作為反對調降貨物稅的理由其實我們從來沒有反對本席從來沒有反對"},{"start":112.102,"end":129.167,"text":"電動車免徵貨物稅但是適時的調降汽機車的貨物稅和免徵貨物稅有差距因此不論是車輛工會或是金屬廠車輛工會或是各位朝野的各個政黨的立委大家都有之一同認為應該適度的調降貨物稅所以本席期盼財政部可以從"},{"start":129.727,"end":155.014,"text":"百姓的角度出發不要鐵板一塊完全不動房貸已經很重了車貸應該適度讓老百姓可以買得起車子車貸嚴重讓老百姓用到至少這種基本的交通工尤其在這個面對這個美國這個川普總統所謂對等關稅的同時這個事實上也是我們一個很重要的籌碼可以幫助我們國家對於美國這個關稅這個部分可能也是一個很重要談判的方法以上 謝謝"},{"start":155.694,"end":162.396,"text":"好 謝謝陳立成委員的提案說明下一位請王世堅委員提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160457","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160457","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc05374617c50e0ad96c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86fd43161210f0379b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:17:47 - 09:20:48","影片長度":"00:03:01","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:17:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:20:48+08:00","duration":181,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.79846875,"end":3.7097187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.63784375,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.822218750000001,"end":16.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.72034375,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.90346875,"end":38.775968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.24846875,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.736593750000004,"end":51.752843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.174718750000004,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.60471875,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.88721875,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.14221875,"end":168.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.71346875,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.84346875,"end":182.21346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.814,"end":3.361,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":4.673,"end":32.323,"text":"我想今天召委排定的貨物稅條例修正的審查本席分別針對貨物稅條例第十一條之一以及第十二條提出修正草案首先關於貨物稅條例第十一條之一主要是因為我們購買核定能源效率第一級或第二級的新電冰箱新冷暖器或者新的除濕機等節能家電的貨物稅可以減增的政策"},{"start":33.143,"end":51.321,"text":"即將於今年也就是114年的6月14號我們就要到期了所以為了能夠繼續延續這個政策提高我們民眾購買節能電器用品的一個意願並且達到節約能源與遇能環境的目標"},{"start":52.242,"end":75.217,"text":"所以本席這個提案延長此政策施行期限呢我想過去是兩年一次那這次我認為說兩年可能很快又要修法所以我提議三年一次所以把這一次的期限呢延到二零二八年的十二月三十一日止另外我們截至二零二五年的二月底全台灣的機車數量高達"},{"start":77.458,"end":81.242,"text":"14662584輛平均我們每百人大概就有63輛的機車而汽車則是在去年的全年銷售的國產加進口的總銷售量為457000多輛"},{"start":98.641,"end":116.291,"text":"也是近五年的次高的成績顯現我們不管是機車或是機車都已經是我們民眾日常生活必需的基本交通工具但是我們看到現行的貨物稅條例仍然對這兩項生活交通工具刻以重稅"},{"start":117.392,"end":146.572,"text":"除課稅原因不合民眾生活需求的現況外財政部將積極遮擋課徵貨物稅的主因歸因為移動污染源也逾越本法課徵貨物稅的目的並與燃料費或空污費有重複課徵稅收的嫌疑除不符合賦稅的公平性更提高國人生活經濟的負擔所以我提出貨物稅條例第12條的修正草案除降低小客車的貨物稅"},{"start":147.592,"end":154.975,"text":"我們一將氣缸排氣量在2000立方以下者從25%降為15%氣缸排氣量在2001立方公分以上者則從30%降至15%外一將所有的機車免徵後稅以上敬請各位委員支持"},{"start":174.39,"end":181.35,"text":"謝謝林思敏委員的提案說明現在要請李坤澄李坤澄李坤澄委員不在現在要請陳"}]}},{"id":"160456","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc09f6e1ae8b4e16981c0f390e692fb4f247bed59d581dcd86f1345feb9e96ac4965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:16:02 - 09:17:37","影片長度":"00:01:35","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:16:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:17:37+08:00","duration":95,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.85784375,"end":5.2115937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.202843750000001,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.508468750000002,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.580968750000004,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.12909375,"end":57.000968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.017843750000004,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.203468750000006,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.924718750000004,"end":62.063468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.367218750000006,"end":96.23534375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.37,"end":15.541,"text":"本人的提案為李岸秀、廖維雄、羅定偉、林佩祥本人的提案就是考量節能減碳降低民眾會購買民生用電的負擔進而促進經濟發展增進全民的福祉"},{"start":23.627,"end":43.516,"text":"應該從節能的電器開始免徵貨物稅目前的我們的行政部門是兩年把它延一次兩年把它延一次這很像麻雀石一樣這個東西讓人家覺得很奇怪一個稅兩年要把它修正一次兩年修正一次這實在是"},{"start":44.676,"end":65.377,"text":"很奇怪的所以我就提議是不是就免徵的畢竟節能減碳嘛是國家世界的趨勢既然要減碳我們就乾脆一次到位這個貨物稅就不要徵了就是這樣的道理跟現在講的說要這個"},{"start":66.598,"end":70.34,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝賴昭偉接下來羅明才 羅明才 羅明才羅明才不在來 郭國文 郭國文 郭國文不在來 我們來請"}]}},{"id":"160447","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160447","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0cd30e163027406da65a835c60a672e287bed59d581dcd86fe53ce74b245c9edf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:17:03 - 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各位先進 各位委員 大家早安本次我們台灣民眾黨黨團所提出的社會秩序維護法第64條及72條條文修正案"},{"start":16.283,"end":45.272,"text":"主旨在回应当前社会民众所面对的两大生活困扰医疗挂号黄牛和生活噪音干扰这两项问题若未妥善处理将严重侵害人民生活品质与基本权益首先就说64条之修法的部分我国迈入高龄社会民众对健康照护的需要"},{"start":46.673,"end":50.095,"text":"越來越貼切括號看診也成日常生活的重要部分然而目前卻出現了醫療括號黃流黃河的亂象所以許多大型的醫院如台大醫院 婦產科門診常常網路醫院一味難求然實際現場就醫"},{"start":77.172,"end":96.39,"text":"數位人未打上線,顯示關號支援遭少數人壟斷並轉售的犀利。此項除損害真正有需要人民就醫的權利,更引發醫事團體連番的呼應。"},{"start":101.161,"end":120.836,"text":"我們現行法例對於藝文體育活動票券已有明文限制黃流的行為卻對醫療掛號票券未設禁令嫌有不足因此我們提案明確將醫療掛號還有票券納入黃流行為之罰款的範疇"},{"start":129.295,"end":158.597,"text":"并将罚款上限至18000元提高于3万元以显政府捍卫医疗资源公平性的决心接下来是72条关于噪音防害的修正噪音噪音防害的修正现代都市生活中噪音干扰成为普遍的社会问题"},{"start":159.676,"end":187.475,"text":"从洗衣转机转运转从屋骄生到邻居夜间的喧哗这些谁非工业噪音却对居家安宁生产生实质的影响目前噪音管制法对于非直续性或难以辆车的噪音"},{"start":188.769,"end":193.894,"text":"明確應由警察機構依相關的法規處理但實質上警察帶多依社會秩序維護法第72條法款然而現行規範的僅除6000元以下的法款根本無法面對"},{"start":215.262,"end":238.673,"text":"行为人产生有效的下阻因此我们建议参考照应管制法第23条标准第一张第72条的罚款上限提高至18000提高处罚效率保障民众基本生活安全"},{"start":239.733,"end":263.686,"text":"安宁权总结来说本修法并非指加强罚款而是在回应社会变迁于民意的期待通过合法合理的修法补救法治的漏洞建立更有预防性以公平性生活治税的范畴"},{"start":265.441,"end":272.447,"text":"敬請各位委員的支持本案讓我們共同為台灣民眾製造更健康更安寧的生活環境謝謝大家好 謝謝台灣民眾黨麥玉珍委員提案說明那麼接下來我們請內政部劉世芳部長針對今天的主題進行簡單的報告"},{"start":292.423,"end":295.68,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好首先感謝"}]}},{"id":"160446","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160446","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc060a6253d2d397d6a65a835c60a672e287bed59d581dcd86f02cda474afd28a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:14:42 - 09:16:49","影片長度":"00:02:07","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T09:14:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T09:16:49+08:00","duration":127,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.65534375,"end":24.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.26346875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.136593750000003,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.11534375,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.887218750000002,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.43471875,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.579718750000005,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.26846875000001,"end":127.97721875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.737,"end":26.528,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉隨著數位科技跟網路平台的一個蓬勃發展我們現在看到票券黃牛的行為真的呈現是一個產業化那系統化的一個匿名化更是有一種趨勢已非單一個體現場倒賣的一個行為近年來 無論是大型的藝文展演從張學友 周杰倫 林俊傑到未來的CNBLUE還有 茉莉紅 郭靖"},{"start":27.288,"end":51.621,"text":"甚至是陳奕迅我想這些大型的藝文展演都是年輕人喜愛耳熟能詳還有職業運動賽事醫療掛號名額觀光住宿券乃至於特定商品的預購都有這樣子的一個狀況皆頻繁遭遇到票券秒殺轉手高價炒作的亂象"},{"start":52.762,"end":67.409,"text":"社會輿論反彈非常的強烈民眾參與的機會是非常非常的受損整體的交易秩序與公平已經遭受嚴重的破壞我們看到現行的制度社會秩序維護法第64條"},{"start":68.71,"end":90.374,"text":"二款的规定黄牛行为需达到转售图利计税即可构成处罚要件对于尚未完成交易但已经在网路平台造成实体现场兜售相关的一个票卷明显具有意图图利的行为现在却没有任何的规范形成的执法落差跟漏洞"},{"start":90.874,"end":103.271,"text":"本次的修法的目的就是要強化黃牛的行為的防治還有及時的取締將意圖轉售盈利及未遂階段的都明文納入到處罰的一個範圍內並納入各類社會參與"},{"start":107.276,"end":125.833,"text":"票券类型以补现行法令的不足并强化及时的预防效果维护我们整个整体市场的一个秩序最重要的是消费者的权益也希望我们内政委员会所有的全体委员共同来将这个法案赶紧来修订谢谢"}]}},{"id":"16610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16610","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685062e4d1cae62d4ae14968be1351dde78bd9360bdedb085226dc56e83db2015685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-23T08:31:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T13:10:00+08:00","duration":16735,"影片長度":"04:38:55","委員發言時間":"08:31:05 - 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漏洞就一直在 執法不延 黃牛當然就不怕那現在的規定 我們執法已經賣出的草票行為對於那種準備拿來轉賣 只差還沒有交易完成的惡行卻裝作沒看到 這個沒有辦法可以管民怨士氣"},{"start":2309.542,"end":2322.193,"text":"因此我主張要修正社會秩序維護法的第64條明確的將意圖轉受圖利納入處罰的範圍不論是不是有成交只要有黃流的意圖就應該要依法來開罰再者適用範圍必須要擴大不限於演唱會或者是藝文活動所有採取網路搶票"},{"start":2337.086,"end":2355.487,"text":"限量預約機制的資源通通都應該要納入這不單單只是打擊黃牛而是在守住一個公平社會的基本規則只要還有一張被炒高的票一個被霸佔的名額就是對守法國民的嘲諷"},{"start":2356.528,"end":2382.073,"text":"最後我要懇請在場的每一位委員還有相關部會支持本席的提案讓我們的修法能夠順利的出委員會三讀通過我們要的不僅僅只是法律條文的修正而是要還給人民一個乾淨公平的購票環境要守住社會秩序也守住人民的基本權益謝謝"},{"start":2384.874,"end":2389.458,"text":"謝謝主席 社會秩序維護法第64條提案說明黃牛票一直都是消費者還有活動舉辦方跟政府單位積極關注的狀況那這個違法的行為呢 伴隨著科技的應用跟社會發展"},{"start":2412.896,"end":2429.065,"text":"是日益猖獗那包含運輸遊樂票券藝文票券運動票券還有各式只要是涉及休閒的一些商品票券都成為黃牛集團的一個魔力的目標那現在甚至呢在台灣那麼"},{"start":2430.506,"end":2455.922,"text":"这些黄牛甚至已经出现了一个集团性的组织性的犯罪那今年呢2月份才有这个揭露就是有一对流行的夫妻党他从民国105年开始就全职用全职的方式从事转售代购所有的热门演唱会或运动赛事的黄牛票从中摸取不当的利益"},{"start":2456.522,"end":2464.244,"text":"而這樣子的經營甚至他的旗下的粉絲團竟然高達五萬人來做追蹤所以這已經變成是一個集體性的一個犯罪的行為那所以這個部分呢我們除了現行的譬如說包含文化創意產業發展法還有刑法裡面的違照文書之外但是呢我們在像社會秩序維護法事實上是欠缺像這樣的"},{"start":2485.808,"end":2509.707,"text":"去处罚还有阻止这样的一个犯罪行为那么社会秩序维护法在从80年制定到现在第64条对于锁定的违反行为的罚环是没有任何的修正和调整所以恐怕会失去原来立法去维系社会秩序"},{"start":2510.427,"end":2528.844,"text":"的用意所以呢在这边新增了我的提案新增了一文票券运动票券医疗票券参旅食宿票券各式休闲及商品票券全部都纳入我们这次来修法的规范"},{"start":2529.485,"end":2556.892,"text":"而这个罚款由原来的新台币一万八千元以下提高到三万八千元以下的罚款借此来能够提升这些犯罪的成本来遏止这些意图要转受盈利或者转受图利者来真正的落实我们社会秩序的维护那么以上的提案请内政委员会的委员们能够予以支持通过谢谢"},{"start":2558.329,"end":2562.185,"text":"好 謝謝王宏輝委員提案說明下一位我們請羅廷瑋委員提案說明"},{"start":2570.285,"end":2596.104,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉隨著數位科技跟網路平台的一個蓬勃發展我們現在看到票券黃牛的行為真的呈現是一個產業化那系統化的一個匿名化更是有一種趨勢已非單一個體現場倒賣的一個行為近年來 無論是大型的藝文展演從張學友 周杰倫 林俊傑到未來的CNBLUE還有 茉莉紅 郭靖"},{"start":2596.844,"end":2621.178,"text":"甚至是陳奕迅我想這些大型的藝文展演都是年輕人喜愛耳熟能詳還有職業運動賽事醫療掛號名額觀光住宿券乃至於特定商品的預購都有這樣子的一個狀況皆頻繁遭遇到票券秒殺轉手高價炒作的亂象"},{"start":2622.299,"end":2638.563,"text":"社會輿論反彈非常的強烈民眾參與的機會是非常非常的受損整體的交易秩序與公平已經遭受嚴重的破壞我們看到現行的制度社會秩序維護法第64條第二款"},{"start":2639.023,"end":2659.927,"text":"的规定黄牛行为需达到转售图利计税即可构成处罚要件对于尚未完成交易但已经在网路平台造成实体现场兜售相关的一个票卷明显具有意图图利的行为现在却没有任何的规范形成的执法落差跟漏洞"},{"start":2660.447,"end":2672.502,"text":"本次的修法的目的就是要強化黃牛的行為的防治還有及時的取締將意圖轉售盈利及未遂階段的都明文納入到處罰的一個範圍內並納入各類社會參與"},{"start":2676.827,"end":2703.495,"text":"票券類型以補現行法令的不足並強化及時的這個預防效果維護我們整個整體市場的一個秩序最重要的是消費者的權益也希望我們內政委員會所有的全體委員共同來將這一個法案趕緊來修訂謝謝好謝謝洛天輝委員的提案說明下一位我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表麥玉珍委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2711.335,"end":2716.378,"text":"主席 各位先進 各位委員 大家早安本次我們台灣民眾黨黨團所提出的社會秩序維護法第64條及72條條文修正案"},{"start":2726.983,"end":2755.955,"text":"阻止再回应当前社会民众所面对的两大生活困扰医疗挂号黄牛和生活噪音干扰这两项问题若未妥善处理将严重侵害人民生活品质与基本权益首先就说64条之修法的部分我国迈入高龄社会民众对健康照护的需要"},{"start":2757.352,"end":2760.774,"text":"越來越貼切括號看診也成日常生活的重要部分然而目前卻出現了醫療括號黃流黃河的亂象所以許多大型的醫院如台大醫院 婦產科門診場場 網路醫院一味難求然實際現場就醫"},{"start":2787.671,"end":2810.677,"text":"数位人未打上线,显示关号支援遭少数人垄断并转售的犀利。此项除险害真正有需要人民就医的权利,更引发医事团体的连番的呼应。"},{"start":2811.863,"end":2831.656,"text":"我們現行法例對於藝文體育活動票券已有明文限制黃流的行為卻對醫療掛號票券未設禁令嫌有不足因此我們提案明確將醫療掛號還有票券納入黃流行為之罰款的範疇"},{"start":2839.994,"end":2869.28,"text":"并将罚款上限至18000元提高于3万元以显政府捍卫医疗资源公平性的决心接下来是72条关于噪音防害的修正噪音噪音防害的修正现代都市生活中噪音干扰成为普遍的社会问题"},{"start":2870.376,"end":2898.172,"text":"从洗衣转机转运转从屋骄生到邻居夜间的喧哗这些谁非工业噪音却对居家安宁生产生实质的影响目前噪音管制法对于非直续性或难以亮车的噪音"},{"start":2899.451,"end":2904.396,"text":"明確應由警察機構依相關的法規處理但實質上警察帶多依社會秩序維護法第72條罰款然而現行規範的僅除6000元以下的罰款根本無法面對"},{"start":2925.962,"end":2949.355,"text":"行为人产生有效的下足因此我们建议参考照应管制法第23条标准将第72条的罚款上限提高至18000提高处罚效率保障民众基本生活安全"},{"start":2950.436,"end":2974.71,"text":"安宁权总结来说本修法并非指法加强罚款而是在回应社会变迁移民意的期待通过合法合理的修法补救好法治的漏洞建立更有预防性以公平性生活治税的范畴"},{"start":2976.141,"end":2983.148,"text":"敬請各位委員的支持本案讓我們共同為台灣民眾製造更健康更安寧的生活環境謝謝大家好 謝謝台灣民眾黨麥玉珍委員提案說明那麼接下來我們請內政部劉思芳部長針對今天的主題進行簡單的報告"},{"start":3003.101,"end":3024.55,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好首先感謝大院各位委員對內政部跟所屬業務上的支持跟指導今天就審查委員包括羅廷瑋委員 高金素美委員 王洪威委員 林思敏委員等還有魯明哲委員等 邱若驊委員等 顏寬恒委員等"},{"start":3024.99,"end":3043.328,"text":"以及台湾民众党团所提的社会秩序维护法修正草案一共有11案那么案内呢所涉及的是社会秩序维护法里面第9条第64条第72条及第89条那就本次修正草案的重点栽数跟本部的意见如下"},{"start":3043.928,"end":3069.787,"text":"第一个有关于社会法第九条第一项第三款针对英雅人修正为听觉语言障碍者一案因为听觉语言障碍者一词也就是社会贯称的听语障人士听语障者或听语障人尚未符合英雅人之普遍概念及一致定义所以无由适用减轻处罚的法理且掺着行政法法第九条关于行政秩序罚则认"},{"start":3074.688,"end":3085.871,"text":"第二,社會法第六十四條第二款針對黃牛票券管制修正一案。一、警察機關並非各類票券的目的事業主管機關。關於藝文、運動、醫療、參旅"},{"start":3088.812,"end":3110.867,"text":"十數各式休閒及商品票券及其他各類票券之管理及罰則應回歸各票券主管機關為之第二為解決黃牛票的爭議行政院在108年到112年共召開了四次跨部會的會議最終決議由各該主管機關嚴定相關法律管理及處罰"},{"start":3112.128,"end":3128.144,"text":"第三有关社会法第72条第三款针对噪音管制修正一案一噪音管制及处罚现在已经有噪音管制法或其他专法来管制考量日常生活当中各种噪音发生情况不一"},{"start":3128.664,"end":3148.874,"text":"声音来源需借助专业之仪器或设备加以判定警察机关并非各种生活噪音之目的事业主管机关应横着环保机关及警察机关之职长、专业、功能性质由噪音管制法统一纳管并且回归环保主管机关依照专法查处取缔各种噪音"},{"start":3149.614,"end":3171.685,"text":"第二现行社会秩序维护法分责各条款之罚还数额已经具备有内在逻辑的一致性若仅为加重处罚单一特定行为而特别提高罚还金额恐有为社会法体系的一致性且与本条其余二款行为是否恰当尚需考量原此本条款不建议修正"},{"start":3172.985,"end":3193.951,"text":"4.有关于社会法第89条第二款针对跟追行为修正一案本条款仅处罚跟追行为关于纠缠、跟踪、骚扰等侵扰行为现行定有跟踪骚扰防治法或其他专法如家庭暴力防治法、性平三法加以保护被害人、处罚或处遇加害人之机制"},{"start":3194.771,"end":3219.32,"text":"並且定有事前預防事中制止及事後保護等規定應該由各該主管機關譬如衛福部主管性騷擾防治法及家庭暴力防治法勞動部主管性別平等工作法教育部主管性別平等教育法等等於職長或職權來查處之上開法令如有不足建議修正各該法令將更為妥適其更具時效"},{"start":3220.16,"end":3247.356,"text":"原此建议删除本条款的规定综合以上几点的报告本次委员所提的社会法修正案如果涉及各主管机关的职长权责应该由各主管机关按照现有法令或者权责拟定相关法律加以管制及处罚警察行政协助之角色必要时候使由警察机关来协助以上报告请各位委员会议指教谢谢"},{"start":3249.295,"end":3274.906,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉思芳部長的報告說明其他單位的報告我們就請委員自行參閱我們會刊登公報現在進行詢問委員質詢前原例做以下幾點宣告第一 本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時延長一分鐘非本會委員發言時間四分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記第二 因為今天法案處理我們本次會議不處理臨時提案請問各位委員對此有沒有意見"},{"start":3276.223,"end":3281.568,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在進行詢問我們請登記第一位蘇喬惠委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請部長有請"},{"start":3302.952,"end":3325.98,"text":"委員長部長好我們今天要來討論社會秩序維護法修正那剛剛也看到不管是您的口頭或者是書面提供的這個報告裡面呢其實對於這個大概有11位委員提出的版本當中已經都做了分類那這個分類我看到您這個大部分我們其實應該今天就是有不管是根據要"},{"start":3327.661,"end":3346.617,"text":"對應聯合國身心障礙公約要來做修正或者是所謂的噪音啊黃牛甚至是這個後面跟騷這樣幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了嘛你看剛剛那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持這樣的部分前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採"},{"start":3348.058,"end":3368.688,"text":"接近或相同的立場啦 相同或接近的立場不過根於跟騷的這個部分我倒是想請教一下部長部長我們這個在這個書面報告當中已經提到多次就是說我們現在也不專法跟騷法上路了已經大概兩年了 部長你可以先跟我們說明一下這兩年來內政部有沒有統計觀察覺得新法專法上路之後執行的狀況如何"},{"start":3375.612,"end":3389.25,"text":"謝謝委員的關心跟蹤騷擾防治法當然主管機關也在是我們警政單位那從111年6月上任以來到上個月底3月底的時候警察機關受理的案件是8224件沒錯"},{"start":3391.553,"end":3395.155,"text":"書面告誡是5409違反書面告誡有513也就是說超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後已經有達到遏止的效果但是我們在處理的過程當中其實也持續的跟民間團體或是專家學者還有網路"},{"start":3414.387,"end":3429.482,"text":"的這些相關的這個民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議那發現到有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進的措施所以就是這部專法立了以後對所謂跟騷跟蹤騷擾的這種樣態行為樣態是有嚇止防治制止的效果沒有錯嗎"},{"start":3435.468,"end":3443.809,"text":"這部是有的好但是它也應該值得精進那我想回過頭來來跟部長討論一下你看看我們這樣兩年多的時間我們受理了8224件核發的這個這個有書面告誡的這個部分是5409所以核發率是65.8那反過來就是說我就是希望能夠得到一個這個申戒這個警告這樣子的狀態有被處理的嘛我的案件有被處理"},{"start":3465.45,"end":3469.572,"text":"顯然有大概三成左右的狀態是不被受理的那這是什麼樣的樣態回過頭來講我們看根梢法的第三條其實很明白的就定義了所謂這部專法根梢法它是以性或性別為處理的原則當時我還記得這個第十屆我們在處理這部專法的時候我也在這部我參與甚多當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說"},{"start":3493.08,"end":3504.533,"text":"因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了所以如果方方面面都要進入這部專法的話我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理所以我們要界定一個範圍就是性與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態所以簡單講"},{"start":3508.638,"end":3525.429,"text":"我們有一部有效的專法了但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關啊那剩下的樣態呢我看你的這個樣態裡面部長你應該也會同意嘛不合法討債啦或者是新聞跟蹤啊或者是還有很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾那這個部分怎麼處理"},{"start":3527.931,"end":3540.025,"text":"目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理比如說什麼你的報告裡面有提到比如說社委法社委法不就是今天這部對不對所以您剛剛提到就是這三層的部分但是實際上的情形的話我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告部長你說就是用"},{"start":3542.788,"end":3569.366,"text":"社會法來處理嘛對你的報告裡面其實第一我為什麼跟你討論這個就是第一你現在在說社會上有各種糾纏跟蹤騷擾行為這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛對不對然後我們的這個能夠有的這個法制呢有刑事法律處罰或跟騷法性平三法家庭暴力法也沒有錯啊到這邊我都合理"},{"start":3570.367,"end":3578.106,"text":"所以我就來問你那你為什麼這個我們現在剩下的一個就是社違法可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉"},{"start":3582.452,"end":3609.913,"text":"不是處罰 我在說處理 處理處理啊 內政部你的意見是本部要為 部長你剛剛正對 順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊用性騷 性平三法來處理之後我們剩下的是刑法跟社會法沒有錯啊 到這裡都對可是我正式在跟你討論部內的意見是今天的修正要把社會法刪掉"},{"start":3610.954,"end":3636.601,"text":"所以我不同意喔不是社委法刪掉就是修正的條文不是社委法刪掉所以你的主張是認為是來當然條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮啦對但是您剛所提到就是這是我們的沒有注意到的一個面向因為你把根梢法跟社委法來做比較的時候呢發現有這樣面向我們需要再做處理的話我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理"},{"start":3637.481,"end":3653.974,"text":"好那所以如果是這樣的話社會法那您剛所提的部分我是不是請那個署長跟你回答一下好 署長您回答一下委員就是說這一個跟騷法主要跟性有關係那跟性沒有關係的這些的跟騷的行為那可以適用其他包括有像草寨的糾紛聚眾的滋擾鄰里糾紛或記者的跟追這些"},{"start":3657.597,"end":3672.41,"text":"有其他法律的適用有包括有刑法或者是設置法那如果設置法這裡面大概就是就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個來做一個再更完整的一個修正好"},{"start":3673.05,"end":3694.328,"text":"那這樣 好好好那幸好我們有透過口頭先質詢部長和署長我們今天這是您提供的書面報告我不曉得你這幾個樣態這幾個條文你是不是有不同的幕僚單位提供的狀態你可以很清楚的看到你們從第一項我們剛剛說這次有四項修正嘛那你的每一項裡面你都有很清楚的結論啊第一個這個"},{"start":3698.411,"end":3722.025,"text":"這個跟行政院生性障礙公約聯合國生性障礙公約的這個相關的你的結論是建議刪除英雅人的規定那後面呢這個黃牛的部分呢你的建議是不建議修正再來噪音的部分你也是不建議修正好但是到最後這個在跟騷的這個部分呢你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定"},{"start":3725.498,"end":3747.646,"text":"所以我們看起來我們是有點誤會沒關係如果只是一個文字上用語的落差事實上部內是贊成說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正我們不是要刪除社會法那我今天的質詢也是很有公諭因為我們造成了非常大的誤會天大的誤會不希望有兩個不同的罰則"},{"start":3749.106,"end":3776.803,"text":"不是表示說那個就是我們的不贊成的部分大概不一定是說我們全部的版本都不贊成你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見啦這個在於刑罰的這個橫平性啊等等的罰金數額你通通都不贊成嘛所以最後你是建議刪除本田委員好不要再佔用其他委員時間我們等一下還有修法的空間你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社委法第89條現在的意見現行版本以及委員修正版本您的意見是是我們的"},{"start":3778.684,"end":3803.433,"text":"想法就是說一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則跟罰則啦那適用哪裡我們認為說目前委員如果要修正第89條的話那是不是可以就是適用以現在為主比較好不要再做修正所以你不贊成委員的提案版本建議保留現行條文是好謝謝部長我們剩下的下午再討論連主席都笑了大家都看不懂啊抱歉抱歉"},{"start":3804.91,"end":3832.819,"text":"好謝謝蘇小慧委員的質詢下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是請劉部長劉部長有請好謝謝劉部長那今天討論的是有關於這個社會法的修法的部分那今天的面向也很多那本席這邊要跟部長請教的"},{"start":3833.819,"end":3858.639,"text":"首先就是有關於社會法的一些重要的修法部分那其實要先跟部長報告社會法的修法其實對我們一般的老百姓非常重要尤其在很多小老百姓他們所重視的一些內容希望說可以得到及時而且快速的一個處理那首先我要先跟部長請教說裡面今天討論的部分有關於這個噪音的"},{"start":3860.199,"end":3881.266,"text":"問題其實也是這次生活噪音的問題也是這次修法的一個內容那主要的原因就是說現在大家知道嗎雖然現在有社委法跟現在的噪音防治法等等相關的一些法令可是民眾還是很多的受到一些困擾比如說居家噪音比如說樓上有時候晚上凌晨的時候"},{"start":3881.986,"end":3904.886,"text":"有寵物在叫或喧嘩吵鬧或是有人在那邊敲敲敲或唱歌或有些洗衣機的運轉這些東西那其實這些都是應該都是屬於一種噪音而且造成這個民眾有時候苦不堪言那他們第一個想法都會覺得是說先報警要先報警可是報警的部分其實警察能做的方式相對於來講是比較少的"},{"start":3906.767,"end":3932.42,"text":"那在您的那個我們內政部的報告裡面也寫說希望說未來這個內容應該由環境機關來負責那這邊我要請教就是說其實我認為是說其實環境相關機關應該跟這個內政警政機關相關一起來合作因為現在遇到的問題是說就這個社會法的部分它的有一個執法"},{"start":3933.24,"end":3948.078,"text":"是要求說以這個不持續性或不易測量可是會妨礙他人生活安寧的這個用色違法可是對環境部而言他是認為持續性連續兩分鐘以上的才是環境部來去做處理所以這樣子讓人民會覺得無所適從"},{"start":3949.54,"end":3964.034,"text":"就是一般人民比如說遇到噪音的時候他就先打電話報警可是打電話報警的時候他可能沒有找環境部來做處理所以變成說環境部也沒有來處理造成民眾這個有一點點不知道要怎麼去做所以我想要請教部長的"},{"start":3964.774,"end":3993.529,"text":"環境部的報告裡面有寫說他是只管不持續性的他是寫說不持續性的他就不罰導致很多的生活噪音是由警方來處理就是說這樣的法規設計是否有點本末倒置那你其實在你在你的這個整個報告裡面最後一頁其實你也有寫說你們現在已經對社會違法要進行相關的處理所以本席是不是想要請教你們現在針對相關的法律你們是要其實民眾他們所擔心的就噪音的問題到底警察單位跟"},{"start":3994.569,"end":4016.545,"text":"環保單位他們是要怎麼來通力來協助然後去解決人民的問題是有關噪音管制法的部分當然主管機關是環境部那環境部有代表過來我想是不是可以請他們一起來回應剛剛委員所垂詢的問題但是有關於這個社福法社維法它社維法是管的是就是不持續性的所以民眾"},{"start":4017.205,"end":4024.611,"text":"不是 我要跟委員報告不持續性的部分的話它的定義確實很困擾譬如說家裡面養的狗大吠了兩聲然後你就要打電話找警察警察到了時候狗就沒有再吠了"},{"start":4032.637,"end":4036.262,"text":"那我們要罰誰所以事實上所謂的不持續噪音裡面的定義啊所謂的不持續的部分就是說它已經發生過一次然後兩次三次然後大家造成非常大的"},{"start":4047.759,"end":4066.742,"text":"譬如說半夜三更有人唱歌那這個部分一般公益大廈的管委會他也必須要來做這個有效的協調那如果你都要動用到警察的話因為警察真正的一個業務其實就是在有關於刑事上面的部分"},{"start":4067.182,"end":4093.119,"text":"跟社委法有關的話我們就是盡量有些非常熱心的這個警員願意來處理所謂的不持續噪音因為它已經造成人人民生活上面的安寧上很大的困擾但是如果每一件都需要來警察來出門來處理這個事情的話我是覺得說確實是有很大的困擾這個要跟委員報告一下所以我的意思是說因為這個規定是在這個內政部警政署它處理辦法裡面它所寫的啦"},{"start":4093.679,"end":4118.156,"text":"就是說不持續性或不易測量的部分因為我們警政機關也沒有測量的儀式所以這樣的話人民就會覺得無所適從所以是不是請環境部這邊跟警政署環境部今天有派人來嗎是不是來解釋一下其實我這邊有個解答啦就是說一般民眾來講遇到噪音問題的時候其實也不是要報警也不是打環境部要打1999所以兩個部門可以同理合作是不是請環境部來講一下"},{"start":4119.457,"end":4140.775,"text":"是委員好那就確實就是陳儒委員所說的針對這個噪音部分實際上我們有跟警政署還有還有內政部營建署有合作就針對可以量測的部分好持續性然後這部分由我們來處理那人和動物噪音這部分我們有分工在1999那邊有做一個分工人和動物部分會請警察"},{"start":4141.215,"end":4153.913,"text":"那可以量測的部分全部有我們環保單位那我們實際上我們環保單位跟警政單位我們實際上有在跨部會合作這部分我們有持續在精進這些相關的一些可以處理的部分只要可以量測的部分全部都是由我們環保機關來做一個處理"},{"start":4156.4,"end":4178.519,"text":"好 謝謝所以我的拜託就是說現在我認為社會法的部分就噪音防治的這個部分其實就是兩邊的標準是不一樣的可是民眾最想要得到的就是說他可以有個很快速比如說我已經被吵了三天睡不著了如果再找環境部來撤的時候其實有時候民眾跟民眾之間就會發生爭執所以這才是社會法會出動的情況先請警察先去做一個勸說的情況"},{"start":4179.68,"end":4207.279,"text":"所以就是说要拜托这个不管是警政单位或环境单位大家要通力合作才能解决民众的问题那以现在的现行的这个法规来看处理办法来讲的话就变成说许多的责任都会因为讲白了就是说民众也不知道如何测量那警政单位也没有相关的测量的仪器就会通通都会到这个处理办法由警察单位来去做相关的处理可是它又没有相关的其实讲白了就是说它真正能裁罚的"},{"start":4207.859,"end":4229.405,"text":"用社會法來裁罰的案例用非常的少結果變成說到最後就是民眾苦不堪言或者是造成民眾整個長期之間因為它是一個不連續性不持續性的一個噪音造成這樣的問題我覺得這還是民眾所擔心的問題好 謝謝那最後再請教一個問題就是說有關於今天大家討論到很多的這個黃牛票的問題"},{"start":4230.345,"end":4259.165,"text":"其實黃牛票的問題其實現在就警政單位來講其實現在還是用社委法來去做一個這個處理所以為什麼今天那麼多委員會提到黃牛票的取締範圍要加重因為如果沒有加重的話其實現在本席所擔心的是因為現在大家比如說看演唱會的時候外面很多警察單位的人員會去抓黃牛票這個動作其實我是不是可以請部長解釋一下他是依照什麼樣的法令去抓這些在販賣黃牛票的人"},{"start":4259.546,"end":4262.341,"text":"我是不是可以請我們警政署來跟...好 可以 謝謝"},{"start":4265.125,"end":4274.729,"text":"現在黃流票已經有定有專法了比方講像藝文的部分演唱會就是由文化部來做已經沒有再適用設置法的這個適用比如講像那個運動賽事像這些那個職棒的這些這個運動產業這一次專法那這個都分別在112年跟113年這兩個法都已經有這個立法的專法"},{"start":4291.876,"end":4301.124,"text":"我們現在看到長江的朋友都已經應用到這個專法已經排除這個設置法的應用了所以沒有適用這個設置法了沒有用這個"},{"start":4306.043,"end":4325.616,"text":"因為設施法這個處罰大概就是比較輕那這一個包括文創法或者是運動產類的這個專法那它的處罰行政法跟刑事法我請教署長那現在比如說很多人在這個小巨蛋或大巨蛋外面賣黃牛票那警察單位執法的部分他是用什麼"},{"start":4325.836,"end":4347.698,"text":"也是協助了一個角度那現在就是現在的主管之間是文化部那如果再到這個到各縣市的話就是文化局文化局他們有派人到現場是請警察單位去來做稽查還是文化部文化部會提供這些他們掃的到這些資料提供我們來做查集"},{"start":4348.178,"end":4364.397,"text":"沒錯 所以意思就是說當然我們是需要覺得是說當然警察人員都非常的辛苦可是如果沒有相關應的法令去應對比如說現在非常多型態的比如說演唱會或是一些車票或是現在更進一步的"},{"start":4365.098,"end":4387.905,"text":"比如說現在帶排這個醫院啊帶排隊的這些問題沒有用社會法的部分增加它的整個實用範圍讓警察同仁有一個執勤的一個動作的時候就變成說警察單位同仁是不是就我自己的猜想是他們只能去收集這樣的資訊然後交給相關單位的人員他沒有辦法現場就做一個制止的行為那這次我認為說就像我剛剛跟部長請教的就是民眾一開始"},{"start":4389.025,"end":4409.746,"text":"他因為一些法律上的一些問題他沒有辦法及時的取得他解決問題的一個方式就變成說要長時間等待可是時間常常就過了以後這個事情的嚴重程度也下降了所以這邊再拜託署長這是我提出來的跟你的請教是好 謝謝謝謝張志倫委員的諮詢下一位我們請麥玉珍委員諮詢"},{"start":4424.093,"end":4433.087,"text":"主席好 有請部長劉部長有請是 麥委員好部長好剛才我們法務部也說我們"},{"start":4436.462,"end":4460.457,"text":"法務部嗎 剛才那個是 不是不是 警政署署長對 目前我們文化部我們文化部的那個次長王時思他說從社會秩序維護法到文化創意產業發展法的立法以提供司法工具但事實上 黃流行為還是直續橫行"},{"start":4465.407,"end":4468.589,"text":"包含就是無兌價票券還有我們國慶的時候的活動票還有演唱會的證票也被大家販售"},{"start":4478.621,"end":4503.371,"text":"所以請問目前是否考慮如日本模式張黃牛票一例列為無銷票並加強檢舉制度或加倍的漲金修法的方向是否是加入就是依圖加價和公開陳列以及違法的標準因為剛才你有講有別的但是還是一樣啊"},{"start":4504.151,"end":4520.921,"text":"委員這個部分是不是由主管機關來回答這個到底有效票或沒效票這應該有主管現在這部分的主管機關就是在文化部如果說剛才是文創的部分是由他們來做一個說明會比較比較清楚他們現在是主管機關對所以說我們覺得就是說有這個法但是還是一樣被騙所以我們是說是不是考慮進來是你決定還是部長決定誰來回答"},{"start":4534.286,"end":4536.489,"text":"這應該文化部來回答 事業主管機關好請來文化部有請"},{"start":4549.128,"end":4572.97,"text":"那報告委員現在的話有關於像藝文表演票券我們現在就是規範在文化創意產業發展法裡面那第十條之一那裡面針對藝文表演票券如果你是以超過票面金額或定價販售者那我們可以就是來處以罰還那這邊販售這個部分它不以售出為必要就包含是將票券上架或是陳列兜售的行為都是在這個處罰的範圍"},{"start":4575.011,"end":4580.255,"text":"對所以我們知道啊但是因為就是還是一樣有這個亂象所以我們才要請教說是不是可以考慮跟日本一樣的模式我們有一個機制還有漲金所以讓大家可以去檢舉還有說他有依圖加價所以我們才要提出社會秩序維護法第64條嘛所以我們才希望說我們在這邊去"},{"start":4602.889,"end":4606.233,"text":"不是文化部所以我們這裡要去做這件事情是可不可以不是說文化部來說明他們的罰款但是不好嘛罰款沒有罰到重點沒有罰到痛點才會產生這些問題嘛"},{"start":4618.386,"end":4633.314,"text":"我的建議就是現在黃牛已經有專法在做試用如果說有一些過亂不准是應該從專法這邊來做修訂因為設置法現在是沒用了你現在黃牛一逮到是用文創法的來做這個法沒用沒有辦法修所以說現在我們修"},{"start":4638.257,"end":4655.245,"text":"不是修是修文創法來修來規範黃牛現在抓到黃牛沒有用設置法來適用現在用文創法比如講像這個演唱會都會適用文創法你抓到黃牛處罰是用文創法不是用設置法"},{"start":4655.99,"end":4672.981,"text":"我們希望說今天討論可以加入 如果你覺得這樣子的話我們是 文創這邊他們有沒有修所以我們是針對我們今天有在修扎法的部分我報告一下 這簡單的一個道理就是"},{"start":4674.002,"end":4678.223,"text":"文創法對於黃牛的加價因為我們今天要問文創文創他們也是就是講一講沒有達到這樣子的效果啦所以我們希望說這個部分你們兩個部會來去研議看是用哪一個法去修最有效不是說因為"},{"start":4694.967,"end":4698.929,"text":"我們的文化部不在這邊 你在講這個 因為時間有限這個我希望你們兩個部會來去討論看要怎麼去修第二個我要問的是說我們剛剛提到的就是除了黃牛票券以外現在我們就是廣大的就醫民眾也是這個全醫也是醫療的黃牛目前民眾網路啊或者LINE的社團都有去說"},{"start":4724.563,"end":4733.55,"text":"戴掛號這也不是新鮮的事情也影響到真正需要就醫的權利所以我們要請教政府是否針對這個有具體的計畫或者立法的方向來阻止醫療掛號的黃牛以我們是否支持此類就是代購啊營利啊或者這個行為納入罰款"},{"start":4749.662,"end":4764.768,"text":"這個部分可以再請教你嗎不要再問文化部了這個醫療的部分就是衛福部這應該是他們的主管的這個相關的一個主管機關比如講像急診室的這個暴力啊這是由衛福部來做一個主管要明定在醫療法裡面來做訂定我們才要說要去要設立法的方向有去罰款"},{"start":4771.351,"end":4773.912,"text":"你就說他們的主責 別人不對啊所以我們希望說我們要在這邊就是因為他們沒有管理好也他們的主責單位他們也沒有做好才會大家跟我們去檢舉希望我們修法嘛所以我們在這邊才說如果他們沒達到監督我們這邊是不是有什麼方向來納入罰款或者修法"},{"start":4801.402,"end":4808.927,"text":"不要去講他們了,他們就是因為沒辦法,才來問你去修法嘛所以我希望的我們要提出,我們就覺得說我們今天有來修法提出你們沒有認同,你們要提出說有哪一個有效的不是說沒有提出又沒有提出有效的,都說別人,別人怎麼樣,別人怎樣"},{"start":4826.577,"end":4842.198,"text":"如果別人怎樣可以的話我們就不用修法了嘛第三題因為噪音的問題我們也是在2021年起我們的聲音照相執行已經就是在這已經"},{"start":4843.399,"end":4847.861,"text":"載出就超過一萬四千件但是那個照應罰款還是民眾就是大家都改造車啊照應啊什麼的就是讓我們我們人民就是無法入眠所以呢我們環境部雖然施法了由三千六提高到一萬八"},{"start":4864.287,"end":4872.014,"text":"但是實際的效果如何 我們必須就是保持這樣子的態度嗎還是說我們警政署是否就是同步廣充執行的設備還有加強我們的警員的專業能力所以我們是否支持我們噪音的擾鈴的納入我們社會秩序的維護低時"},{"start":4890.869,"end":4914.058,"text":"72條的取締的條件這個施刷應該是在你這邊的吧不是別人的事,是你的事這個剛剛那個委員有問過,就是噪音的部分應該有分持續性跟不持續性有分別是還是特別法的噪音這個管制法是優於這個設置法那另外比方說車的這個噪音也有交通道路"},{"start":4915.058,"end":4941.017,"text":"道路交通管理處罰條例的這個適用那我想這個都是一個一個是主軸的一個是配角今天這個討論大部分有主管機關大概是主角警察機關是配角要互相合作啦所以有互相合作才找你來說明嘛是不是要支持這個條款納入嘛但是這個如果法條的適用是以特別法又於普通法啦"},{"start":4943.453,"end":4971.683,"text":"所以你支不支持支不支持支不支持我們把這個納入到72條的考慮我不是我是支持就是使用那個特別法就是原有的主稠的這個法律來做適用如果說你要再做加強規範有特別法來修訂還是這邊不足你來提嘛對不對你要提出啊我們主管機關也可以提案也可以持修法的不是嗎"},{"start":4973.184,"end":4989.462,"text":"所以說真的啦因為昨天我也問部長事實上我聽說啦不知道是不是啦聽說部長下令只要賣一針提的案或者提的事情"},{"start":4990.263,"end":5004.72,"text":"一律不處理沒有這回事所以我聽說但是如果不是的話沒有這回事我就希望說我們新住民的基本法的新住民發展署"},{"start":5005.52,"end":5018.968,"text":"趕快去執行還有我們現在提的法你也沒有同意也沒有提出你可以說這個不好我們要不要增加或者修正因為我們找來就是希望達成共識嘛"},{"start":5021.089,"end":5025.793,"text":"所以說我們希望說我們覺得不好或者是說增加或者在哪裡我們事先要提出這個要去審查這個法案我們就要來去講了不要在這邊再來說誰的責任不是你的職責這個也不好這個不行了怎樣我們這樣子沒辦法達成共識啊我們希望我們未來我們是雙方提案達成這個效果才不會浪費大家的時間"},{"start":5050.865,"end":5055.547,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席 謝謝好 謝謝麥立正委員的諮詢 下一位我們請王美惠委員諮詢主席我們請保定部長有請"},{"start":5071.656,"end":5077.542,"text":"今天要討論社會秩序法 我覺得是抱怨抱害每一項都要做 每一項都要去合作在這個過程當中 本市府先要幫你探討幾天內"},{"start":5094.295,"end":5097.561,"text":"他本身也跟你談論過說你做得不錯,表現不錯,讓沖頓可以更多吃的結果在這幾天的時候,有一個"},{"start":5108.052,"end":5113.813,"text":"有心態,他走下去人生道,在那裡走走走,去選擇他的理念,他的想法,結果沒理由說,沒幾個人而已,就走一半了說,他違反秩序法,結果在這個過程當中,我所了解的,包括數中也好,報中也好,我感覺應該是不曾因人而異啦,"},{"start":5137.745,"end":5139.086,"text":"因為全台灣的檢察非常辛苦,但是在這個過程中我看,我們都有違反嗎請部長回答還是書長來回答"},{"start":5157.015,"end":5169.732,"text":"四月十日早晨八點多就是有110通報在那個金融路有團體使用擴音器妨礙安寧但是有妨礙安寧所以我們的董事去處理的時候就發現在那裡做演講他有勸導"},{"start":5174.798,"end":5183.666,"text":"他勸導啦 勸導沒聽 勸導沒聽啦所以被社交媒體代表查很多所以不是你聽我說 代表企業市長可以不用走沒有啦 現在就是這樣就是說他這個來走是用勸導 他沒有跟他的職業運作是用警告他的走就要有警告 命理解散 要制止啦"},{"start":5203.162,"end":5221.094,"text":"我們只是勸導而已 口頭也可以讓他看到說這個牌子可以勸導因為這個勸導也不會形成法律上的一個效果就是不會做處罰啦 沒形成法律上的形式市長我當然知道不會處罰什麼我只是要跟你談到的說 因為不要讓我們的檢察動員為難啦"},{"start":5229.926,"end":5235.049,"text":"我們要一窮一條邊,一樣的道路,一樣的法律去走不會因為沒有一樣的地方,又沒有一樣的做法因為我們說實在,之前也看到我們台北市的市長,你們的做法跟他現在,尤其他站的地方,不是不能進去的地方"},{"start":5257.554,"end":5260.577,"text":"如果像你們這樣說的話,是未來後面要選舉,如果愛家愛戶要去拜訪的,都要去申請喔!因為拜訪的本身的好選人,跟他本身的志工這樣走,都不是五六的啦!"},{"start":5274.158,"end":5277.82,"text":"師父我是要跟你說因為這個社會的禍害我也認同說如果太大聲插到人應該是要去勸導這我認同可是不要讓百姓認為說跟做官可以這樣跟我們百姓去站的地方不是管制的不是不能進去的那是人性道"},{"start":5301.65,"end":5304.212,"text":"因為我認為我們要做警察後面的護盾 不能讓他為難在這裡面 我也知道你們負上的辛苦 黃牛配合也要找人 運動裁券也要找人 現在什麼醫療"},{"start":5322.885,"end":5332.433,"text":"的票券還沒找,我要來請教我們的單位醫療票券是什麼來回答一下"},{"start":5342.755,"end":5343.516,"text":"衛生福利部代表"},{"start":5371.654,"end":5374.295,"text":"比較像是我委託你用我的名字對嘛 現在我就是要跟你們說醫療的票券的訊號我委託這間我還自己站好就不要去大庭病院看了因為有很多醫生你如果看不到但是他有現場說限制20個去看但是我去看"},{"start":5394.782,"end":5398.684,"text":"我提醒他們,以前如果7點起的時候,不是他們走,而是他們如果要看,還有什麼待過後,還要拿健保卡給他們在當場的因為以前,是不是我們會去找好嗎?譬如20個、20個大在那裡嘛現在是到你要找的時候,就要有健保卡"},{"start":5424.775,"end":5426.257,"text":"是不是這樣?對,委員是這樣,沒有錯對嗎?因為我覺得問一個單位都一樣做得不好,我們就去找一個單位去改進好事"},{"start":5439.787,"end":5442.368,"text":"因為本市在這裡也覺得說你這個醫療的票券的薪會讓人產生什麼什麼的有的醫美跟一個十張可以上兩張跟幾張可以也有可能是這樣所以在這個報酬報案的裡面部長我就是要跟你說我們非常辛苦像黃牛票啦"},{"start":5468.817,"end":5470.538,"text":"要聽NC有話,我們也要合作,前面這兩天,前面我們又收過了,在文化部也收過了那個運動票券,我們也在教育部收過了,是不好的,我們要在專法裡面,怎麼處理"},{"start":5492.071,"end":5496.532,"text":"不說實在,最近的演唱會,如果沒有這兩天大家的發表、大家的手法,有這麼多人可以買我們的問題是出在哪裡?有時候我真的買,但是臨時我都沒辦法去看沒辦法去看的當中,我會自己上網去買這要如何處理?這也是有的,沒錯"},{"start":5520.018,"end":5521.739,"text":"所以我們是應該讓不好的、我們想不好的繼續處理才對可以讓北省的立委覺得這個黃牛票是非常惡質這我認同,但在這兩天的經濟,我們的黨人有想過才對你看現在,包括張學友來,包括什麼人"},{"start":5545.445,"end":5549.67,"text":"一定是很好,但是很好的當中,我們有需要再去文化部,如何讓它轉化,繼續讓它加強下去,這才是最重要的"},{"start":5560.481,"end":5569.408,"text":"是 感謝委員的指導啦法律本來因為都有檢討到整整的空間但是我也很認同說有這個目的事業主管機關包括文化部或是教育部他們有定專化在後我們站在的近景上面是幫他協助但是你現在如果所有的部門都轉播到關燈來社會秩序維護法有時候會變成好像往後退那有經濟的空間啦"},{"start":5587.622,"end":5607.187,"text":"最近這兩年因為有專法的關係啊其實處置上反而好一點所以我是覺得說不要再回來我們這個社會秩序維護法所以我們才會很主張說是不是社違法他有三年才剛剛開始適用三年讓他有一定的穩定性那我們有一些需要精進的空間我們會提供給目的失業主管機關來做參考"},{"start":5608.567,"end":5621.859,"text":"那委員剛有垂詢到有關於個別的就是警員在用集會遊行法對於這個舉牌的這個制止的部分那我想我們在這段期間裡面的處置就是說第一個他有沒有違反交通啦不要動了交通"},{"start":5624.241,"end":5638.808,"text":"因為極有法它有比較嚴格一點點的限制盡量不要用這樣的方式造成比較多的困擾但是我們要非常謝謝警員他一定是有其他的一個顧慮會認為說用極有法來做制止的這個動作或做其他的勸導的方向這個我們永遠有檢討的空間也是一樣所有的這些聚眾活動都有一定的法源基礎"},{"start":5649.292,"end":5662.419,"text":"那法源基礎呢請我們的警員在第一線要處理的時候呢他通常都有碰到不同的這個適用上面的困擾那但是我們都會用這個比較法律上面能夠橫平的觀點來看待那請委員能夠多多指教"},{"start":5666.961,"end":5671.624,"text":"感謝柏廷會的回答,本席覺得我們有法要好好去質詢,要去執行例,不然有法定在那,不去執行例,這樣就不好了,以上謝謝王美惠委員的質詢,下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢"},{"start":5703.564,"end":5720.268,"text":"好主席齁哎呦 布丁被你騙在那好好 董事長有請啊來 我在執行前 我想先那個今天有各部會的代表的 請先舉手一下來 各部會各部會的代表啊 請先舉手一下好你看 好多隻手喔好 請放下齁"},{"start":5733.24,"end":5751.196,"text":"我為什麼要特別先這樣子你知道嗎這個社會秩序維護法牽扯到的部會真的非常多啦非常多而且有一些法令各部會其實都有訂專法都已經在處理了是不是啊各部會你們可以點頭或什麼就好啦"},{"start":5758.869,"end":5777.387,"text":"我幫他們回應了 有了沒有 我有在看他們在點頭了啊對不對因為各部會其實也有訂專法在處理那我想請問一下部長或是這個署長如果這些業務量又回來你們這邊那你們覺得你們有這個辦法去處理嗎"},{"start":5784.127,"end":5813.63,"text":"真的沒辦法剛剛委員也講這是包山包海我覺得已經特別法已經有規範就用適用特別法來做適用那設置法是一個普通法所以現在你現在去做執行也是適用的這些效果是特別法適用這些特別法那這個設置法是一個普通法如果有不足的話才是在設置法那我是覺得警察工作真的要讓他專精不然每一樣都包山包海做每一樣都會做不好"},{"start":5814.807,"end":5839.836,"text":"沒有錯而且喔如果都回來這裡喔不是你們派人出去之後他如果違反你們還要要不要開單你們還要處理很多後續的行政作業對沒有錯是不是是啊這個比你派警員出去你後續的這些文書作業你反而更需要更多的人力吧沒有錯沒有錯嗎好那我們從這次的修法我也看"},{"start":5841.395,"end":5865.168,"text":"我真的覺得有一點奇怪你知道嗎這個可能各位同仁大家要思考一下在各部會裡面的專法裡面他都有罰款了那我們今天很多的修法裡面你罰款比人家本來的罰都還少你去訂這個有什麼意義"},{"start":5867.018,"end":5884.832,"text":"我不直接講哪個委員的法案啦但人家明明其他的法律裡面他罰的錢都比較多那我們今天又來修這個法結果罰的比較少"},{"start":5886.054,"end":5909.17,"text":"這我不知道意義何在 這個是要累死你們警察我來報告一下 你現在修的這個法管確實是比那個專法少所以現在逮到黃牛也不會用設置法來採法 是用那個專法來採啊對啊 所以那個專法 你比方講像文創的那個那個是五十倍的一個法 幾十萬欸"},{"start":5910.39,"end":5926.967,"text":"那這些你如果增加到那個設置法頂多是增加我看那裡面有增加到三萬多塊你沒辦法是用設置法還是還是用專法來罰署長我就是要問你這個那如果回到這個設置法之後有這個問題"},{"start":5929.969,"end":5938.217,"text":"那民眾如果報案如果什麼那你們警察要不要法要不要開判沒辦法用設置法法抓到的話還是用那個專法來處罰沒辦法用設置法處罰你還是要回去原來的啊回去原來的專法處罰對不對"},{"start":5945.023,"end":5960.331,"text":"那所以我就點出了這一個不是很奇怪的一個修法嗎這個真的是多此一舉耶我不知道署長你們整個的看法所以我們看法就是建議不修正建議不修正啦我們看法就是這剛剛部長已經有報告就是這個建議不修正因為你修的話也沒有用啊修的話沒辦法適用啦"},{"start":5975.067,"end":5999.589,"text":"不是我發現啦齁有看出來這個問題的也不是只有我啊是很多人都有發現了這個問題啊那我們如果這樣子我真的是我覺得啦這個法如果通過齁就是累死你們警察而已全國的警察會痛死啦報告委員通過也沒辦法適用啦通過還是適用專法通過也是"},{"start":6000.45,"end":6026.166,"text":"擺盜的黃牛還是用專法因為現在沒有用設置法比如想像現在的這個比較前的小巨蛋的演唱會啦或者是大巨蛋的這些的那個棒球啦都分別有這個文創法跟運動賽事的專法在適用這些黃牛都有適用也沒有在適用設置法你設置法再定個再多幾萬兩萬三萬那也沒辦法適用設置法還是適用專法"},{"start":6028.84,"end":6048.985,"text":"我當然知道是適用尊法所以我說是類似你們警察而已啊你們警察也無所適從啊是不是啊如果大家要就責又說警察誒這個設置法裡面有你們警察又不處理外界不了解法律的內容沒有錯啊是類似你們警察而已啊對啊啊而且喔你剛講的那些還是部分"},{"start":6049.665,"end":6070.448,"text":"阿如果噪音防治法咧一樣啊那個狀況是相同的不是喔那個案件可能比演唱會多上千倍上萬倍喔沒有錯那你怎麼處理我們現在的這個狀況大概就是兩個單位就是環保跟警察嘛那現在有一些就是警察的部分現在平常講啦警察到場去處理噪音大概都是只有嵌倒啦"},{"start":6071.295,"end":6084.628,"text":"都只有欠的而已啦那你如果要法的話真正要法都是在噪音管制法的環保單位他有儀器我們警察也沒辦法說透過這個聽這個是屬於噪音或怎樣只是說你這個停止所以這個等於是"},{"start":6086.212,"end":6104.397,"text":"如果民政法聽就聽不聽的話也沒有辦法因為也沒有這些良策的這一期沒有錯啊但如果又回到這個法裡面人才要不要處理要不要去要去啊啊對啊啊你要去又沒辦法辦任何事所以如果說未來如果要更建立我也強力建立要在專法裡面去做修訂"},{"start":6105.599,"end":6132.523,"text":"對啦從專法 從噪音管制法的專法去做修訂才辦了涵括全部我舉這幾個例子是說齁如果這樣子齁這個法今天修了的話齁不僅達不到目的啦累死我們警察弟兄啦而且最主要的是你到時候執法的時候沒有一個標準你會讓警察弟兄被人家罵這個是我擔心的啦 署長"},{"start":6133.208,"end":6145.837,"text":"目前如果以噪音的這個部分一定是沒有標準因為每個同仁去的聽了到底是不是噪音所以現在的這個裁決大概都是只有勸導我們沒有這些應用設置法來做處罰"},{"start":6147.954,"end":6169.601,"text":"現在如果真的要開單在地方政府它是環保局派人去量測什麼什麼的然後有車子去那才能夠真正的第一線馬上罰然後那個警察區是沒有辦法的我舉這個例子是說如果噪音也要警察管你們警察反正我每天都報案都有噪音警察光這個警察就"},{"start":6170.681,"end":6187.005,"text":"其他事都不用做了啦所以我還是覺得啦這個要不要修這個法大家要仔細的想一下我個人也認為修是多此一舉沒有用的啦好 謝謝啦好 謝謝好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉的諮詢下一位我們請黃婕委員諮詢"},{"start":6199.619,"end":6212.451,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請部長跟署長劉部長張署長有請因為其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了那我在這邊先請教署長啦署長知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎"},{"start":6213.482,"end":6220.269,"text":"黃牛就是說你那個買票之後會加價加價轉售給他人賺取這中間的這個這個這個價差這個就是基本的黃牛好謝謝署長其實說得很明確黃牛是要買票之後有加價的行為就是你從中有獲得盈利嗎你有圖利嗎"},{"start":6234.304,"end":6258.932,"text":"可是在這個目前涉違法裡面我看到的要件很可能會造成說你該罰的罰不到但是不該罰的很可能誤罰怎麼說呢因為其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止例如說我今天生病有事不能去那我在網路上我想要請人家去收購但是低於市價或者是說看有沒有折價賣或者是原價賣這個有這是黃牛嗎不是吧"},{"start":6262.133,"end":6266.777,"text":"這個應該不是 就是說你的原價或低價的話 這個是沒辦法處罰的沒錯 這個是因為黃牛的定義非常明確所以當初我們在修文創法 在修運發條例的時候裡面的條文是怎麼寫的 必須要超過票面金額或者是定價的售價 要超過這個才可以去處罰"},{"start":6286.574,"end":6306.602,"text":"那可是在社會法裡面怎麼寫的現在大家要修的是說意圖轉售圖利那意圖轉售圖利包括的範圍很可能不只是高於票券那如果他低於票券他可能先低價去收購那我再轉售但是轉售的金額還是低於定價低於市價可不可以"},{"start":6307.421,"end":6331.327,"text":"不清楚我想這個就是定義上比較沒有清楚沒錯所以反而社委法裡面的定義跟要件非常的不明確很可能我在臉書上只是因為說原價五千塊的演唱會的票券那我因為我臨時不能去我轉售那中間可能加了這個轉匯款的三十塊那這樣是不是有可能會被拿去檢舉然後很可能拿去誤罰"},{"start":6332.964,"end":6355.481,"text":"都有可能都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管局官去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛"},{"start":6356.522,"end":6375.688,"text":"所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五十倍五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八"},{"start":6377.308,"end":6394.053,"text":"然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了"},{"start":6394.773,"end":6417.162,"text":"那最後不管怎麼樣主管機關都是例如說演唱會一定是文化部嘛然後如果是運動賽事一定是這個教育部對所以這個主管機關也都很明確然後要件也很明確了罰則也很重了所以怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道說那我們今天到底在這裡修這個色違法是做什麼用"},{"start":6419.079,"end":6448.047,"text":"所以我最大的疑惑是這個我不知道我們在今天修完這個第一個罰不到第二個罰比較輕第三個誤罰別人所以今天審完我不知道說我們在社會法裡面要去處理黃牛這件事情到底用意為何所以我覺得像橫路剛剛委員講的很可能變成是多此一舉然後白忙一場我擔心的是這個啦所以如果真的要處理黃牛我當然希望說現在第一個演唱會票卷已經有了"},{"start":6448.587,"end":6468.804,"text":"第二個運動賽事也有了那其他針對醫療或是其他遊樂相關的更多範圍的我們就訂更多的專法今天衛福部也在這裡如果是針對醫療的衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為這個還要去釐清啊"},{"start":6469.545,"end":6498.624,"text":"然後其他遊樂票券如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券那這個交通部可以去討論是不是應該有專法來處理這件事情我非常痛恨黃牛我要先講因為就是網路上真的太多這種黃牛我收到超多陳情再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會喜歡看賽事的然後常常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭所以我們才訂了文創法"},{"start":6500.325,"end":6527.695,"text":"運發條例那現在所以我不知道說我們今天要回來討論這個社違法的用意到底為何那最後我還是要講一下這個跟騷的部分因為其實今天除了說討論黃牛還有處理跟騷嘛那這個跟騷如果要改這個文字說無正當理由跟追他人改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人我不知道說這邊署長知不知此"},{"start":6529.459,"end":6543.826,"text":"這個部分我是覺得就是已經也有專法在做執行所以我們也建議做適用專法來做一個依據所以如果真的有類似這個根梢的行為最後還是會回歸根梢法處理是嗎對"},{"start":6545.481,"end":6572.686,"text":"是的所以我在這邊也是再次強調既然都已經有跟騷法了我不知道說我們社會法這邊修這個的用意為何因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嗎包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢就是必須要反覆或持續的跟蹤他人然後必須跟性或性別相關所以這個要件都要非常的明確然後有這樣的專法來開罰這個"},{"start":6576.048,"end":6602.088,"text":"當事人對嗎對所以在這邊我認為說今天的這相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦那其實該開法的依據也都有了那當然我還是希望大家可以針對這個黃牛的行為我們可以做更完善的規範包括我剛剛講的衛福部交通部如果還沒有相關專法的也可以考慮來擬定好以上建議謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":6604.341,"end":6606.322,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員的質詢 下一位我們請徐玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請劉部長 張署長劉部長 張署長有請"},{"start":6626.215,"end":6649.367,"text":"徐委員好 部長好 還有署長好部長 我星期一詢問您去年的12月20號 青鳥在立法院外集結那一些民進黨的立委 毀損公務 叫說青鳥衝進立法院我當時問你的是 請問你有沒有把他們移送你回答我說 因為立法院不是禁制區"},{"start":6650.447,"end":6667.299,"text":"我當然知道立法院不是禁制區我問你的是有沒有把他們移送可是你回答我立法院是不是禁制區如果不是狀況外就是你在包庇誰我想請教署長12月20號衝突後你們有沒有把誰移送法辦除了宗嘉斌委員"},{"start":6667.819,"end":6696.701,"text":"好 10月20號那個這一場是由台北市政府警察局來做一個執行那因為這個每一場的這個群眾活動都會跟現場的這個這個市政來做處理那這裡面看起來就是好 請問除了宗家兵委員你們還移送了誰這個他們檢視的這一些的一個相關的一個市政是沒有在做其他繁重其他的這個人員所以只移送宗家兵委員一個人嗎對宗家兵委員好"},{"start":6699.082,"end":6720.895,"text":"請部長看一下影片我們是講道理的人但是當有人不講道理的時候當有人不講道理的時候我們也不要沉默然後再來 請各位保持體力今天 今天的時間還是漫長至少看到了就有"},{"start":6722.976,"end":6726.998,"text":"我們沒有要來這裡跟警察打架我們沒有要來這裡跟任何人起肢體衝突今天最高的和平原則最高的和平目標處長"},{"start":6746.53,"end":6755.447,"text":"剛剛影片中你看到破壞護欄有好幾位喔那為什麼只移送宗嘉斌委員一人其他人呢那依照劉部長的標準的話應該是全部都要移送啊"},{"start":6756.024,"end":6763.449,"text":"沒有 這個部分我們會依照市政再來做滾動式的一個檢討從去年12月20到現在從去年12月20到現在 莊家兵委員都已經出庭過一次了你們到現在還要滾動式的檢討 了解現場的狀況這影片網路上到處都是好 您再看一下這個照片 就是"},{"start":6780.64,"end":6803.684,"text":"除了宗家立委員破壞柵欄之外還有不少的民進黨的立委也協助青鳥推倒護欄要衝進立法院那請問一下署長這樣有沒有違法那這個部分因為要衡量現場的這個狀況那我等你看一段影片你衡量一下民進黨立委到立院外不斷教授要青鳥進入院內場面一度混亂"},{"start":6809.258,"end":6827.663,"text":"跨上柵欄 一個右勾拳青鳥把員警架住突破第一道防線青鳥跟警方拉扯柵欄用跨的抽不了後方有人踩在椅上像直接一個馬步跨過去甚至另一頭有人試圖用繩子想突破"},{"start":6828.985,"end":6857.3,"text":"好我們現在看到這段影片很多的民進黨的委員都在叫說協助青鳥衝進立法院現場還有出現青鳥勒住遠景還有破壞柵欄衝撞遠景的狀況這樣有沒有違法那我想這個是構成要件跟程度的問題就是說這樣子還沒有構成要件整個的一個狀況是不是跟這個有沒有達到已經就是這個整個構成要件那我們想會跟事實的狀況來做一個認定"},{"start":6858.421,"end":6860.593,"text":"那請問一下當天警政署有沒有移送守謀"},{"start":6862.668,"end":6891.928,"text":"那天沒有沒有沒有為什麼沒有那些召集的人的一個說真的這個狀況沒有單獨的一個首謀一個情形單獨的那一天的申請那一天申請是有申請核准的一個主要的主辦人但是可以衝撞嗎可以破壞公務嗎可以叫說大家衝進立法院嗎那我想這個因為群眾活動的樣態非常多這是會衡量現場的這個狀況來做一個處置那所以署長你現在準備怎麼處理"},{"start":6893.068,"end":6921.334,"text":"已經從去年12月20到現在那我想就是還是我們還是尊重台北市政府檢察局的這個根據這個現場的狀況來做一個處置因為部長我想在受訪的時候有提到說在我們4月17號當天在場的全部應該都要移送甚至部長也受訪的時候也提到說他會請警方將守謀朱立倫主席跟教育界委員這個移送那請問一下"},{"start":6922.557,"end":6924.191,"text":"部長您有沒有對媒體說這些話"},{"start":6926.668,"end":6954.257,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想委員可能沒有了解我在對媒體受訪時候的全文的部分我在開始講的時候就有提到說我們按照集會遊行法裡面的相關規範那如果你有觸犯到集會遊行法的相關規範的話我們按照規範來執行那你 你有沒有說我會請警方移送首謀朱立倫主席跟謝榮介委員這個是在不過局部長你知道嗎你已經是有史以來第一個內政部長指揮員警辦案的"},{"start":6956.258,"end":6959.5,"text":"您是第一個報告委員我剛剛有提到我們是根據集會遊行法那集會遊行法的主管機關是內政部但是檢察官沒有這個職權"},{"start":6971.485,"end":6974.467,"text":"您內政部長不該下這種指導棋我沒有下指導棋我是根據原先他們所提供的事項來對媒體所回應的你怎麼可以說要要求警方這個將守謀這個是斷章取義"},{"start":6987.137,"end":6995.601,"text":"這沒有斷章取義 這是你自己受訪的那所以你就說錯了沒有斷章取義嗎所以在這個部分我希望署長你要積極偵辦去年12月20號的這個青鳥衝撞立法院還有一些民進黨委員教唆他們衝進立法院不要只有半藍不半綠因為現在的標準大家看起來都是半藍不半綠請問署長可以嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":7018.291,"end":7020.273,"text":"好 謝謝徐益臻委員 下一位我們請黃建斌委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請內政部 劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":7037.466,"end":7059.354,"text":"部長好 部長今天我們針對那個思維法的修法就在人立委有提出的修法的方向讓除了針對原本的第9條條文有關這個英雅人的用詞應該予以修正外另外包括跟民生生活息息相關的一些面向的一些修正像是黃流票還有噪音 這種是移民用案被審才檢定的事情"},{"start":7060.214,"end":7079.28,"text":"那我想這兩個立委也認為應該要修法納入違規的樣態並且要加重罰則讓我們執行單位能夠有更有力道那不過本席從內政部報告裡面看到只有好像就有同意修正英雅人的用詞其他像是什麼針對黃油票啊 噪音加重罰則啊"},{"start":7080.32,"end":7092.885,"text":"內政部都是不建議修正那本席認為內政部這樣幾個說法其實跟民眾實際上的感受跟需求是有落差的那接下來就幾個例子跟部長來討論首先我們針對黃羅配套部分在2023年的時候我們有通過這個叫文化創意產業發展法還有運動產業發展條例"},{"start":7101.309,"end":7120.661,"text":"雖然都已經針對這個票券的販售進行規範保障民眾不管是參加演唱會或是看這個運動賽事的這個公平的權益減少黃牛的這個猖獗但隨著高齡化社會的來臨醫療需求不斷的增加現在現在連醫療過後的黃牛票也越來越嚴重"},{"start":7122.203,"end":7148.283,"text":"你可以Google一下你在Google上搜尋代掛號三個字你就發現一堆有的沒的的網站就連這個知名的網站上面都有而且直接明碼標示你要在哪一間醫院掛號要收多少錢那舉例來看有一個叫做KK代掛號的網站上面什麼都有包括大型的醫院 診所 中醫 國術館這邊連什麼 動物醫院都可以代掛號"},{"start":7149.875,"end":7176.003,"text":"那因此我們希望在這我們64條條文裡面現行的條文裡面將醫療行為也納入在裡面就希望能夠減少黃牛的猖獗我們不想要看到真正有需要看病的病人被排擠那所以本席也會連署因為這樣連署我們邱委員的提案將醫療帶過號的黃牛行為也納入罰則就在同時也加重罰則維護我們國人公平就業的這個權益"},{"start":7179.164,"end":7194.392,"text":"那不過我們在內政部的報告裡面看到就建議不修法了理由是因為要回歸各票卷主管機關依法管理查處那本席認為現在目前針對黃油票的樣態雖然是各機關都有他專業認定跟權責不過"},{"start":7197.625,"end":7211.529,"text":"部長我們現行的這個社會法64條裡面他就有針對運輸然後遊樂票券的黃牛行為進行裁罰那因此本來就有的社會法裡面的東西我們就希望能夠把醫療的這個醫療帶掛的這個行為能夠加強來防範喔那"},{"start":7216.03,"end":7238.179,"text":"目前我們衛福部裡面並沒有這個法則所以才希望在社會維護法裡面加進去然後至少先維護我們民眾的權益獲得保障所以本是希望身為內政部身為我們社會法的主管機關應該是要站在維護社會秩序的立法精神幫民眾來守護權益不是把這件事給他們保護希望這部分內政部可以好好來檢視"},{"start":7239.58,"end":7266.139,"text":"那第二個部分我們就針對72條 也是很多委員提到72條的部分我們常常在社會新聞裡面看到的類似的情形就是酒醉鬧事 聲譽喧嘩 民眾說不曉打電話報警然後警方到現場去規勸開罰然後這一次我們國民黨委員提出的修法裡面希望在這樣的行為上加重罰則讓我們員警執勤的時候力量能夠更強一點我們希望能夠在既有的法源上"},{"start":7267.253,"end":7282.882,"text":"加強力道減少民眾破壞安寧的這個行為不過我們在報告裡面要看到就是一般民眾的檢舉照一旦見可以自行測量音量並記錄提供裁罰機關作為證據那內政部自己也說環保機關認定標準必須"},{"start":7286.454,"end":7305.191,"text":"持續不間斷兩分鐘以上才可以適用噪音管制法持續兩分鐘以上喔他如果沒在兩分鐘這就沒辦法喔你的那個噪音法就沒有辦法管理他喔那另外更重要的是說部長那個我不知道部長家裡面有沒有車輛分配的這個機器沒有我們也沒有啊我們要怎麼檢查民眾要怎麼檢查對不對所以"},{"start":7311.618,"end":7339.969,"text":"而且最重要是不知道那個噪音一定是連續性的嗎它會固定一分鐘叫一次一分鐘叫一次或三十分鐘叫一次嗎這個也不容易認定啦那民眾真的會求助無門其實本席也會常常收到這樣民眾的電話我也知道這樣子其實對我們員警的期望真的會增加所以我們希望這些東西真的要加重要不然這樣沒有辦法認定的時候民眾又求助無門那民眾遇到這種事該怎麼辦我想如果說"},{"start":7341.721,"end":7363.624,"text":"如果說民眾要執行修正跟環保機關檢舉這個一個晚上都不用睡了在那裡插就不用睡了所以作為我們72條的修正條文我們內政部在這個回應上本是也不以為然我再次強調針對喝酒鬧事 聲樂喧嘩的這種擾民的行為72條條文目前是第一線執行嚴謹很重要的依據"},{"start":7364.645,"end":7391.894,"text":"那我們也在保護民眾的這個關鍵的法令現在修法的方向就是要加重加重他的罰則希望能夠減少類似的情形發生而不是我們並沒有要增加新的法讓我們的員警增加的請勿我們是希望在現有的法令上能夠加重罰則減少這些擾民的行為的發生這樣希望能夠讓我們百姓能夠不用再受這些噪音干擾"},{"start":7392.754,"end":7412.802,"text":"那這部分我希望內政部也能夠好好的來檢討那以上的質詢謝謝部長也謝謝署長也希望能夠來檢討這樣的法令的方向好謝謝黃建斌委員的質詢跟委員會報告待會在高金素美委員質詢完後我們休息三分鐘下一位我們請高金素美委員質詢"},{"start":7423.955,"end":7435.568,"text":"謝謝召委 我先請文化部的副司長文化部副司長有請還有體育部的教育部的檢任視察還有教育部吳永明檢任視察有請"},{"start":7437.496,"end":7453.314,"text":"請問一下兩位你們現在有對黃牛有什麼專法簡單的說一下跟委員報告文化部這邊的話就是透過文化創意產業發展法第十條之一來執行黃牛的紡織的業務好那請問是如果抓到的話要怎麼懲處"},{"start":7455.834,"end":7484.113,"text":"目前的話大概是兩個部分第一個部分的話是民眾的檢舉那我們的話會去收集這一些資料之後透過縣市政府然後來做這個查核跟罰款然後再來還有利用不證方式也許是用一些城市的掃碼的方式那我們有跟售票平台這邊來做合作好所以就是文化部訂出了黃牛檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法對不對但是你發現了沒有文化部你們是把責任推給地方政府"},{"start":7485.154,"end":7501.091,"text":"然後你們不協助 不統整 不介入換句話說 你們把一切責任就往下丟但是我們民眾熱血的檢舉 地方政府哀鴻遍野看一下你們現在的檢舉數9000多件的檢舉案 只有145件被罰然後你們裁罰的比例 僅僅只有1.5%"},{"start":7507.922,"end":7535.494,"text":"這個比例不叫執法是叫勸對檢舉請問一下副市長你們這樣的狀況是查證困難還是你們根本沒有人力來處理這個部分的話也請委員看因為有時候他的一些檢舉的資料確實就是可能他就是沒有一些票據9000多件你們只有處理145件再來還有當然還有一部分有一些也許不是屬於文創法那有多少件不是屬於文創法"},{"start":7537.255,"end":7554.626,"text":"我這邊的比例大概有2000多件是不屬於文創法2000多件那我上面的資料僅僅登載的是1199件請問不屬於文創法是屬於南門法請問有一些是屬於體育票券我們就會請體育署這邊來做處理你們怎麼處理處理了嗎現在他說2000多少"},{"start":7564.145,"end":7592.8,"text":"兩千多件嘛對不對不屬於你們文化部的嘛對吧那屬於體育部的你們就給體育部好請問一下體育部因為我們現在從立法到現在總共接受的案件是422件你們只有422件可是剛剛剛剛他說有兩千多件有沒有包含這個422件因為有一部分是我們這邊直接受理的所以你們根本沒有橫向聯繫嘛"},{"start":7595.56,"end":7600.09,"text":"你們如果街道不是文化部的業務你們有給體育部嗎 教育部嗎"},{"start":7603.345,"end":7630.323,"text":"好所以你講的兩千多件有四百二十二件是屬於他的對吧那剩下的呢屬於誰兩千多件不完全全部都是體育生的那還有誰請問那當然有一些可能比方說也許是可能比如說蛋黃酥啊就是比較是高價商品的這個可能就真的不是我們這裡可以還有什麼嗎你現在舉例嘛現在我們立法委員就要試圖把這些不是的把它列出來啊然後大家讓大家知道啊"},{"start":7635.007,"end":7645.823,"text":"那有一些可能也許就是像賽車啊然後或者是就是我剛剛說可能像是或是海外餐廳帶牌啊這樣子的案件所以就這兩種"},{"start":7648.017,"end":7665.025,"text":"其實種類是蠻多的但是可能最普遍的還是體育賽事你這樣子好不好我在這邊希望你把這些因為現在只有你們兩個部會有這個所謂的這個檢舉黃牛的部分嘛對吧其他部會應該沒有吧你們有專法嗎"},{"start":7667.179,"end":7684.096,"text":"沒有啊只有你們兩個啊所以今天為什麼我們要提這個在社會法裡面就是有一些絕大部分是沒有在你們這兩個部會去處理的嘛是嗎對不對副市長旅域部的檢任視察是好請你們回座謝謝請部長劉部長有請"},{"start":7692.674,"end":7707.589,"text":"市長剛剛我們聽到好多委員在這邊講義正齒嚴都說很討厭黃牛可是我們發現事實上黃牛並沒有被消滅啊並沒有被消滅啊有這麼多啊那怎麼處理民怨一大堆啊請你告訴我該怎麼處理"},{"start":7709.083,"end":7735.623,"text":"報告委員在目前我看到的這個部分就是說我們要採取分流立法那您剛有特別垂詢包括文化部或是教育部他們有個別的法律就這個黃流票猖獗的部分他的罰則也好或是他的處罰的機制或是他的定義我們知道了但是剛剛我們看到了文化部他說有九千多件的案件檢舉他們處理的只有一百四十五件被罰"},{"start":7736.724,"end":7765.709,"text":"那裁罰我們看到只有百分之1.5啊這個比例實在是差很多然後剛剛就問他了有那麼多件為什麼你們就處罰145件他說還有很多件2000多件不是屬於他們的然後屬於這個體育部的是有422件所以剩下來1000多件啊1000多件我們今天該怎麼處理所以今天為什麼我們委員會在社委法裡面提出來就是因為人民真的也覺得受苦啊"},{"start":7767.421,"end":7790.062,"text":"部長您覺得應該怎麼樣怎麼處理報告委員站在我們警政單位處理有關於社委法的部分呢我們幾乎都是以協助的立場那如果你目的事業主管機關他的處罰要件或者是說他接受檢舉的裁罰的要件沒有很明確的話他事後啊還是會衍生很多包括行政訴訟所以我們才會說所以我們說法才會說我們用檢舉的方式"},{"start":7793.285,"end":7818.684,"text":"但是我們以這個社委法來講你要加重它的處罰應該不是我們的原意而是我們希望說不要讓這些黃牛的行為有猖獗的這個現象那黃牛的行為有猖獗的現象的話恐怕還是要很多跨部會包括民眾自己本身對於黃牛票是否因為這是買黃牛票大概大致上都是屬於這個商業的交易行為比較多"},{"start":7819.264,"end":7838.991,"text":"所以你要用這個行政裁罰的方式或用其他的這個刑法的方式來介入的話他的要件如果不明確呢我們後續還是要接受其他的這個機關上面包括司法單位的檢驗我想這樣子反而會置私欲焚這個不知道我不同意你的說法因為現在重視我們的兩部會他已經有了所謂的這個黃牛的那個專法然後要裁罰可是他還是有黃牛"},{"start":7848.274,"end":7862.895,"text":"所以你要回歸到人性善良的一面在目前來說已經是不可能的所以我們希望在這個社會法裡面目前沒有被規範到的趕快先規範當然如果未來有專法要處理這個部分我們會樂觀其成"},{"start":7864.301,"end":7870.744,"text":"所以我認為還是得要來處理好嗎 希望待會我們在討論的時候繼續討論過渡上面如果是屬於這個行政裁量就是說跨部會之間我們可以互相合作譬如說採取專案假設說現在有大型演唱會那它有什麼專案在源頭的管理包括的買賣或者是說不合法的買賣或者是網路上的黃流猖獗的部分我們先把這個源頭的管理先弄清楚以後那涉違法比較是屬於後端的查處"},{"start":7894.356,"end":7903.768,"text":"我們不可能去介入這個演唱會或是運動賽事要不要開辦但是後端的查處的話如果純粹質疑我給他開罰單這樣就可以解決問題我覺得這樣子反而沒有辦法真的達到就是我們要遏止這個黃牛猖獗的這個現象"},{"start":7910.797,"end":7918.98,"text":"所以我們也會支持其他的部會包括不管說您剛有提到譬如說他剛有提到蛋黃酥是不是跟這個買賣交易餐廳的或是交通餐旅有關的是不是可以訂定專法的方式那我們設為法警察機關呢站在這個協助的角色來盡量來協助或後端的查處的部分所以嘛大家是要討論嘛"},{"start":7933.345,"end":7947.11,"text":"不能夠說一下子去向其他委員說今天我們根本就不關係到社委法所以他覺得應該回到其他各部會訂定專法其實呢我不認為應該是這樣子啦現在黃牛的猖獗是真的非常的猖獗"},{"start":7948.944,"end":7971.098,"text":"這個的確是影響 網路上面有誰可以來去我覺得我們的警政單位應該是要來其中的一環 也必須加入嘛要不然剛剛文化部也好 體育部也好 他們也都講說他們很困難啊你們就直接交給地方政府對不對 副市長"},{"start":7973.646,"end":7996.947,"text":"你們共同協定你們也沒有辦法有這個能力所以也就是說為什麼現在黃牛還是依然那麼猖獗我們訂了兩個專法還是那麼猖獗就是因為有非常多的細節的問題必須要中央各部會來一起來努力的所以今天我們才會提這個社委法所以我不同意其他的委員在這邊說的根本跟社委法沒有關係我不同意所以我的修正動議還有附帶決議我也有四個"},{"start":7999.99,"end":8016.621,"text":"要求第一個要比照文化創意產業發展法調高罰還的額度然後讓黃牛票賣一張可能要賠好幾倍這個部分是已經有了但是我們也希望在社會法裡面再訂然後來增設吹哨者的獎勵機制要鼓勵全民來檢舉然後全民來訪黃牛我覺得這是也是必須的"},{"start":8021.083,"end":8033.374,"text":"用地方上用這個全民的力量一起來遏止這個黃牛我覺得其實是應該有必要的第三個是以虛偽資料或其他不正式的方式利用電腦或其他相關設備的行為影響非常的嚴重這個應該要加重處罰"},{"start":8039.739,"end":8061.155,"text":"第四個附帶決議要求編列專責的人力來調查黃牛不能夠再讓這個查證變成虛硬故事我想呢有了這個法的修正以及有這個附帶決議的這個修正我相信我們還可以補一些其他的不足的漏洞好嗎以上是我對於社會法的發言謝謝好謝謝高金素美委員的質詢我們現在休息三分鐘"},{"start":8538.482,"end":8541.763,"text":"我們現在繼續開會請劉許廷委員發言謝謝主席 劉部長有請我們請部長委員好部長早安其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的這些修正條文其實大家的想法不外乎就是就是要針對這些疑難雜症然後做出一些調整嘛"},{"start":8566.823,"end":8569.67,"text":"那其實本期看大部分的法條大部分都是增加罰則嘛"},{"start":8570.677,"end":8598.615,"text":"那當然在剛剛討論的過程中有很多人提到比如說叫法規禁核的問題比如說譯文的票卷體育的票卷現在有專法當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提嘛大家就是希望要打擊黃牛初衷是如此所以從各個角度去提案那當然在這段時間的過程中這個體育的相關的條例過關了譯文相關的條例過關了那社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去我覺得有討論空間大家就可以思考一下會不會有法規打架的問題如果會"},{"start":8599.956,"end":8620.621,"text":"條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整但是我想剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容裡面其實有提到其實社會秩序維護法就是不破網嘛以前大家都是基本上都是交給這個法條來處理但是隨著有越來越多的這個專法處理比如說剛剛有提到蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對跟騷法出來之後也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛"},{"start":8621.061,"end":8638.758,"text":"他還是有處理剩下來樣態的叫補破網的這樣相關的一個功能這我想部長剛剛也不會反對因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說即便跟騷法上路之後社會法還是有檢舉還是有裁法所以表示這法還是有功能的啦所以我想不管是今天討論噪音討論黃牛票討論跟騷社會秩序違法都還是有這個補破網的功能"},{"start":8643.723,"end":8664.557,"text":"所以我想在這樣子一個大框架下大家針對法條的內容跟法則來做討論跟補強它怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢所以剛剛有些委員講說我搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義或者是為什麼今天大家要討論這個幹嘛不是這麼簡單的這是我覺得立場非常清楚要來表達一下部長你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎"},{"start":8667.03,"end":8684.727,"text":"委員你這樣問我怎麼敢回答沒有意義我的意思是說我們在處理這個社會資訊維護法的時候像我們剛剛署長所說因為包山包海所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的一個討論圈那只是說要把它收攏變成說每個條文的討論案或是每個條文的文字上的敘述的話確實有困擾"},{"start":8688.87,"end":8709.733,"text":"因為不能單純由內政部來處理你看我們今天有四五個部會一起來所以今天我們找了很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛因為我們每一個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的我可以用專法來優先哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來做普破網的功能就來處理我現在來舉例來交通部的代表有請交通部今天有來嘛對不對有謝謝"},{"start":8718.426,"end":8738.885,"text":"委員好你好那個剛剛有委員講說所有的黃牛票樣態都要立專法來處理那我們講比如說我在旅展買一個這個本來價值是一萬五千塊的一個住宿旅遊套票我在旅展買的時候就打對折對不對可能只要七千五我這個人買了之後可能買好幾張然後我在網路上賣一萬算不算黃牛票是"},{"start":8742.093,"end":8757.641,"text":"好像算對不對因為我取得的價格跟我賣出的價格我有圖利嘛大概就是黃牛票嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法"},{"start":8759.794,"end":8774.851,"text":"我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃牛票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是遊輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有"},{"start":8780.711,"end":8799.979,"text":"因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論的訊號當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票卷體育票卷樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嗎交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員會沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝"},{"start":8810.558,"end":8838.788,"text":"然後部長其實就是這樣啦本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公益大家的管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛"},{"start":8839.688,"end":8866.785,"text":"特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊"},{"start":8868.186,"end":8882.055,"text":"因為剛剛根梢的部分有明確的數據但是社會法72條3款請問啦 比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數 承案的次數 相關的數據檢察組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在 不過這個很少因為他這個"},{"start":8884.853,"end":8901.183,"text":"我們去大部分都勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要求是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們"},{"start":8904.659,"end":8915.925,"text":"裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有 應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來 我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次"},{"start":8922.937,"end":8948.1,"text":"應該是算蠻多 應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居大家是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制"},{"start":8948.74,"end":8965.789,"text":"不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等"},{"start":8967.304,"end":8986.085,"text":"就沒有 夜間沒有保全那管委會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好 警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式"},{"start":8986.874,"end":8996.014,"text":"那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報請來做一個處理"},{"start":8998.288,"end":9024.671,"text":"還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表"},{"start":9025.111,"end":9045.57,"text":"哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果"},{"start":9047.412,"end":9075.59,"text":"不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎警政署辛苦了但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎"},{"start":9077.312,"end":9093.525,"text":"你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛"},{"start":9094.286,"end":9118.107,"text":"沒錯不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像跟我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多"},{"start":9118.667,"end":9133.507,"text":"可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合平的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求"},{"start":9133.607,"end":9160.418,"text":"沒關係 這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數 還有你的出行次數中間的落差 還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好 那就感謝部長跟署長的說明 謝謝謝謝 美娟議員的質詢也謝謝部長 署長那接下來我們請李博議委員"},{"start":9166.037,"end":9169.793,"text":"來 先請署長警政署長有請"},{"start":9176.316,"end":9199.737,"text":"大部分的委員其實在講我們社會法但是剛剛還是有國民黨的委員有提到4月17國民黨主席帶頭到北檢去做集會的這個事情我整理一個當天我們台北市警局當天收證跟舉牌的是台北市警局嗎台北市警察局署長我必須要說台北市"},{"start":9200.217,"end":9213.654,"text":"警局他的執法他的舉牌包含勸導警告跟制止非常的有技巧這個應該是精心設計的啦他分別在6點46分第一度"},{"start":9214.801,"end":9241.659,"text":"舉牌勸導然後在7點50分跟8點51分9點50分10點54分跟11點54分分別舉牌警告跟制止一個小時一次中間兩個插曲中間兩個插曲就是一個插曲就是7點54分的時候那因為攔尾率重"},{"start":9243.171,"end":9257.5,"text":"已經是禁止區了還率中迫害鋸馬這又多舉牌一次其實他給蔣萬安市長一個很大的空間說好了蔣萬安市長去半個小時就好了就在這6點45分到7點50分他要舉牌這個空檔蔣萬安市長如果在那邊"},{"start":9265.005,"end":9285.783,"text":"順利30分鐘離開是不會被舉牌的啦但是很不幸的他在北檢受訪的時候在外面受訪的時候時間有點耽擱啦所以待的時間久了一點之外呢他又遇到這個南緯率眾暴力破壞鋸馬這個事情所以蔣萬安市長分別被舉牌兩次警告"},{"start":9286.81,"end":9304.307,"text":"沒有代表什麼就是一個首都市長一個念法律系的首都市長不遵守法律的一個記號啦在這邊我沒有要求警政署說你現在要辦蔣萬安但是我要強調的是蔣萬安市長其實原本已經跟台北市政府警察局巧合啦"},{"start":9305.373,"end":9317.321,"text":"一個小時內啊就是我在這個空檔進去不會舉到牌啦但是被攔尾破壞了啦但是被這個時間沒有掌控好破壞了所以署長這邊我要是是要讓你知道這個"},{"start":9320.563,"end":9350.283,"text":"法院北檢外面它其實這個對集會來講這個不是民主這個叫法制這個叫做破壞法制這個叫做藍白不斷要破壞法制來影響司法把它變成日常這個我們還是要跟國人說明清楚這個是在破壞台灣的法制所以警政署的同仁也非常辛苦當天我想收證的應該也不只台北市警局警政署有沒有派員支援"},{"start":9350.923,"end":9368.911,"text":"我那天沒有支援,那邊純粹由台北市這個條件來處理好,謝謝,來,署長今天還要講這個社會秩序維護法那社會秩序維護法,其實我難得跟這個牛許廷為員難得跟召集人有一個共同的共識啦難得,真的"},{"start":9372.677,"end":9380.946,"text":"對 針對這個運動票券跟藝文票券還有跟稍法已經有其他的相關的法令已經有規定的我覺得這個可以另外再討論"},{"start":9382.534,"end":9411.041,"text":"但是針對這個噪音事件其實身處都會區大樓區其實我們說警察同仁最難處理的事情其實也是大樓之間的吵雜樓上樓下這個問題那我再強調一次前年在高雄有一個無姓男子跑去殺了樓上的鄰居的一對父母年輕的父母那這一個無姓男子他被判死刑"},{"start":9412.102,"end":9439.444,"text":"是在這個憲法判決後是被判死刑是一致死刑所以一直有人在說台灣這個憲法法庭宣告死刑無效這個是假的他這是一個死刑的案例但是這一個裡面警方有沒有更大的空間來處理這個事情當然之前有沒有報案這個我不知道警政署這邊有沒有去調查或是市政府警察局有沒有相關的這些紀錄就是說"},{"start":9442.625,"end":9469.14,"text":"如果這個案例如果警方可以去因為這個公寓大廈管理條例之外那有這種大樓公寓大廈的這些噪音的爭執的時候那警方可以有更大的權力或者是警方可以及時的來制止這些問題的話我想這個我會比較傾向說讓警方有更大的空間可以來處理這個事情因為在都會局有非常多"},{"start":9469.727,"end":9496.224,"text":"的這些大樓裡面的糾紛其實是從這裡造成的那警方去也不是說現行法當然就是可以罰六千但是事後當然有很多的這些包含他身負的管道包含這些會造成很多的這些行政程序的繁瑣等等的這個我都理解但是讓警方出面的時候對於這件事情馬上可以解決或者是有更大的約束力我覺得這可以討論 署長"},{"start":9498.11,"end":9513.823,"text":"對那如果說在法律規範的完整性更完整的話有這些法律的依據那我們警方受理這一個報案之後到場去做處理當然是有更完整的這個保障這個我認同但是又一方面增加警方的這些壓力"},{"start":9514.503,"end":9541.801,"text":"那有一些就是說可能牽涉到這些法律有盡的剛剛有些委員有提到的就是說如果說是屬於特別法的話那未來要更完整的話是不是要在這些專法裡面再來做修正是我覺得很多這種鄰居之間的這些吵雜你說要等到環保局來錄音來監測這個其實都有困難那增加一些可以趕快嚇止這些糾紛的這些權利我覺得是可以討論的好 謝謝"},{"start":9545.552,"end":9550.937,"text":"好 謝謝難得諾有共識的李博義委員下一位我們請徐姓委員質詢好 謝謝主席本席請劉部長還有張署長 警政署張署長劉部長 張署長也請徐委員好"},{"start":9567.395,"end":9576.628,"text":"部長還有署長首先本席想請教一個問題這個禮拜六4.26凱道有活動兩位知道嗎"},{"start":9578.185,"end":9599.541,"text":"知道那我們現在得到消息就是會有人反串這個自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群那可能會引起一些衝突請問這個部分部長是不是會要求警政署好好的來取締這個我們對於這個狀況各種我們都會掌握來做處理"},{"start":9602.952,"end":9619.125,"text":"那如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知我們絕對沒有只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象如果警方看到五星旗共黨旗"},{"start":9621.567,"end":9642.228,"text":"這個我不知道長怎麼樣那你們會不會取締會不會協助會這個4月26那是申請合法的一個集會我們一定會維護這個集會過程當中的和平順利那如果牽涉到其他會計做干擾干涉不相干的我們會配合主辦單位來做排除好謝謝"},{"start":9644.31,"end":9650.196,"text":"接著本席要就我們今天這個社會秩序維護法來請教署長那您先回座我接下來請教部長部長"},{"start":9660.867,"end":9688.395,"text":"這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部但是好像這次修法新增的有些部分好像跟文化部體育部但是體育部還沒成立還有跟可能行政院消保處都很有關環境部對對對還有衛福部衛福部有關所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提這個醫療票券的部分那我看到衛福部的回應是說"},{"start":9689.355,"end":9714.189,"text":"等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同"},{"start":9715.63,"end":9736.476,"text":"我想他的定義啦還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事的系統衛福部已經說如果所謂的醫療票卷他們的意見我看到他們的報告但是這個還沒有做最後的確認因為委員的說法不是您啦委員有的人覺得是有人覺得不是"},{"start":9737.276,"end":9762.581,"text":"這是你講的就是一般是戴掛號是為了解決譬如說行動不方便的老者長者那另外一方面有的人說在網路上面就有的人已經包山包海要包掛號你要從台大醫院到小診所都有那就表示說他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬或者是要用這個高的這個報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事譬如說我們的掛號費只要一百大家給你收一千"},{"start":9763.542,"end":9770.208,"text":"那這樣對不對那這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化這個應該是我們進入主條的時候還要做討論然後釐清的意思嗎我還是一樣因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情在行政院的四次這個開會裡面都有提到要採取分散立法也就是目的失業主管機關盡量分散"},{"start":9787.483,"end":9807.861,"text":"那如果說是掛號黃牛如果有這個名詞的話那是否由衛福部他們來做比較好的所以您表達意見是因為要分散到目的或者叫分流立法分流立法到目的事業主管機關我們來配合就不希望納在我們內政部管轄的社會秩序維護法"},{"start":9808.722,"end":9829.744,"text":"那個報告委員我想我們是一起合作的啦就是各個部一起合作那我們因為警察人員有那個警察權那警察權可以協助的立場一定來協助但是這一張黃牛票他的認定要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定不是由我們來認定的是目的事業主管機關或者他是違反"},{"start":9830.725,"end":9858.795,"text":"環境噪音的部分的話呢是要目的事業主管機關來認定可能會比較好所以這樣子的競合啊我們需要仔細來討論我想很多委員都贊成但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法那就一條條圓要解決一個部隊裡面要處理的事情會有困擾那部長您請留步然後同步請消保處的代表有嗎今天消保處有請還有一今天好像是文化部文化部"},{"start":9859.215,"end":9878.103,"text":"來文化部副市長有請謝謝包含教育部不好意思最後我想請教因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票我只是提到醫療我們部長就提到黃牛票現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會"},{"start":9879.324,"end":9898.884,"text":"那這個在過去可能他賣假設好一點的位置五千塊黃牛票如果烘台到八千或甚至一萬的我們就認定是黃牛票嘛對不對那但是現在因為現在社會變遷那我們在飲食上已經有所謂的代買代牌"},{"start":9900.465,"end":9918.872,"text":"現在不是只有像Uber其實我們現在有一種就是它取代了整合了傳統代為排隊就在飲食上也有包括買這些票券所以以前的黃牛票我們是稱黃牛票現在如果說OK我請他幫我代排代買這個部分怎麼認定"},{"start":9921.721,"end":9951.45,"text":"因為我 譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下那部長您就先請坐好了"},{"start":9952.523,"end":9953.046,"text":"哈哈哈哈你錢說"},{"start":9954.111,"end":9982.922,"text":"跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義"},{"start":9983.522,"end":9999.263,"text":"因為有些人他譬如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是他勞務一般是會想共通"},{"start":9999.804,"end":10018.305,"text":"共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題"},{"start":10019.406,"end":10039.038,"text":"那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦他加價轉售目的是在於他自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦"},{"start":10040.679,"end":10063.865,"text":"所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者"},{"start":10065.202,"end":10075.269,"text":"被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基礎應該是有差別的那所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見嘛"},{"start":10077.958,"end":10106.71,"text":"是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這一個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不"},{"start":10107.642,"end":10136.369,"text":"不認可這樣嗎 但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係 那我大概了解你們的立場最後 請回座 最後部長我最後不好意思 我最後再請教一點不是這次修法 但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環"},{"start":10141.09,"end":10164.518,"text":"現在我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散佈在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪所以我什麼福利沒了什麼福利沒了這有沒有影響公共安寧"},{"start":10166.154,"end":10193.24,"text":"報告委員 這個要看事實上如何認定對 如果事實上謠言所說的那個項目沒有被刪除但是卻有這樣的謠言出來那這一塊是警察還是誰要去執法如果是社會秩序維護法當然是由警察來出面來處理這一塊所以呢 所以我們聽到這樣謠言的要檢舉是嗎對 是不是檢舉 然後警察就"},{"start":10194.608,"end":10218.344,"text":"跟我們警政署檢舉 是嗎不是啊 我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊 現在那麼多謠言我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人 等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言 是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下"},{"start":10220.089,"end":10245.136,"text":"如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況"},{"start":10248.277,"end":10276.855,"text":"好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持中立好謝謝"},{"start":10278.359,"end":10282.462,"text":"好謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢下一位我們請吳祁銘委員諮詢好謝謝主席我們與會同仁而且我們內政部部長劉部長有請"},{"start":10299.291,"end":10309.675,"text":"委員你好部長你好今天我們社會秩序維護法真的我們得知道今天我們所討論的我們社會秩序維護法在我們警察裡面是非常大的龐重龐大的負擔因為社會秩序維護法它涵蓋的範圍太過廣"},{"start":10321.46,"end":10348.793,"text":"那其實我們警察他的勤務已經有過重那未來你包含說糾纏還有跟蹤騷擾等事件在我們111年我們的跟蹤騷擾防治法已經上路了那我們所接獲的民眾的陳情有8000多件那符合告誡的有5000多件"},{"start":10349.313,"end":10356.64,"text":"那你平常就已經加深警察他們的勤務這個負擔所以說今天我看到剛才在討論包含有防流票的問題就是應該我們的前者單位還是要把它歸類你像我們在新北市在雙溪還有遇到那個"},{"start":10375.767,"end":10386.413,"text":"挖隱形的這震驚我們整個社會尤其媒體那天在報導我看了都傻眼了其實他都是倒垃圾垃圾又是屬於環保這個區塊所以我們"},{"start":10390.555,"end":10397.777,"text":"未來我們的社會自治維護法要怎樣來歸類讓民眾來瞭解我們最主要是要讓民眾知道說這個部分你警察要怎麼來做這個簽討然後我們的環保人員要來"},{"start":10407.15,"end":10420.677,"text":"怎樣 因為都是鄰居嘛 要怎樣來跟他們做協調 才不會造成這個悲劇的發生這是目前我們要討論的 我們的社會知識維護法 這重點不要說什麼事都歸類於警察單位 我們警察 他們的勤務就非常繁重啊所以說在這個部分 請內政部部長 要怎麼來 妥善來做規劃"},{"start":10432.963,"end":10457.083,"text":"是 謝謝委員的關心委員對於很多民眾涉及到社委法的部分其實也都非常的關心但是您剛有特別提到因為社委法在上一次修正到現在大概不到三年的時間這裡面如果我們發現說光是社會秩序維護法無法解決的問題行政院有指示所以我們已經採取叫分散立法"},{"start":10457.583,"end":10479.702,"text":"譬如說現在的這個文藝的黃流的部分的話呢就是請這個文化部來處理那如果是運動採卷運動發展條例的話就處理有關賽事的這個黃流的這個部分那譬如說噪音的話呢請噪音管制法那所以警察的他的職權的部分呢就比較明確化也就是說我們在協助目的事業主管機關來化解這方面的問題"},{"start":10481.864,"end":10484.347,"text":"然後不是說只要引用社會秩序違法就是為了開罰單或者是開罰金這個叫做我們一般來講但是我們警察還是願意協助這個部分那您剛所提到就是說鄰里之間的這個糾紛"},{"start":10496.741,"end":10514.711,"text":"我都知道像村里長也是很辛苦那是二十四點鐘過的工作費在處理事情但是呢我們只是盡量化解那如果真正升高到說需要由法律來解決的話大概還不至於先到法院大家都會先到警察局那到警察局的報案也是都包山包海"},{"start":10515.151,"end":10534.602,"text":"那所以我們現在的這個社會秩序維護法那個警員用社會秩序維護法來開罰的次數呢就慢慢在降低因為大家都是知道說法治社會有法律的地方啊大家互相要相認和好還是大家互相要遵守法律那所以如果現在呢如果要再把它加重刑責"},{"start":10535.683,"end":10564.021,"text":"或者是加重他們的業務量的話我覺得這樣反而讓事情的回歸到越來越混亂但是呢我們可以處理的就是說現在已經分散立法的部分譬如說給環境部給文化部給這個體育部未來的體育部或者是甚至未來有交通部的處理因為交通部他們現在處理是只有管大眾運輸的這個鐵路的票那個叫做運輸的票卷但是呢交通部又有處理像觀光旅宿"},{"start":10564.781,"end":10575.268,"text":"的部分在這個部分也還沒有放到交通部應該處理的範圍所以我們很希望說未來如果有機會我們還是會繼續跟行政院反映就是說讓目的事業主管機關的這個事業的這個部會他們能夠就不管是黃牛也好或是說消費糾紛的部分盡量採取這樣的方式那還有呢其實還有一個叫做消費者保護法那消費者保護法呢在地方機關地方政府也有譬如說地方的消保會"},{"start":10594.281,"end":10602.27,"text":"之類的那但是很多人啊很多人都覺得說最好現在先開館啦不要說明天要再去起政府 再去管政府再去兜圍 再去找所以最快的一定找里長第二天就找警察里長就是用口供的"},{"start":10609.358,"end":10631.03,"text":"那警察看他可以開大門這樣子那這樣子反而造成我們的警察他會一直要處理這個事像剛剛那個署長有跟那個委員報告過真的噪音管制法開罰的比例不是很高但是警員為了要應付噪音的問題他可能要往返的那個次數可能是高於百倍跟千倍"},{"start":10631.79,"end":10659.678,"text":"所以你現在如果再把這些噪音管制為了加強它的罰則好像就能夠降低噪音的糾紛跟困擾我覺得反而是後端管理不是後端管理的問題是源頭的部分譬如說公寓大廈的管委會我們要不要制定大家一個比較好的相處之道你晚上10點以後你就不要再唱歌之類的但是偶爾拖個桌腳"},{"start":10660.498,"end":10660.538,"text":"對,好,謝謝部長"},{"start":10685.202,"end":10705.416,"text":"因為我們這麼明確的規定 不然很多民眾他們遇到事情 絕地都是靠電來找警察所以做成警力都已經不過了 已經又吃重所以這樣可以說 前者單位都把他列分出來民眾讓他們了解 謝謝部長 感謝 辛苦好 謝謝吳京平委員的諮詢 下一位我們請羅廷瑋委員諮詢"},{"start":10720.916,"end":10721.517,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 有請部長 還有署長 張署長有請"},{"start":10730.488,"end":10751.048,"text":"好 部長好行政院開過跨部會的一個會議決定分散處理那回歸主管機關然而實務上主管機關的一個處理也不是萬靈丹那舉例來說文創法運轉條例所以已經針對演唱會體育活動的黃牛進行加重處罰但文化部仍需轉交地方政府進行裁罰"},{"start":10751.628,"end":10774.492,"text":"而地方政府普遍都反映能力資源有限行政流程繁瑣舉證不易以及導致整個成效低落大量的檢舉卻是成案較少那相較之下社會法可由警察直接處理程序簡便反映快速才是更有效嚇止黃牛的地道防線分散處理最終導致的是全責分散執行無力"},{"start":10774.932,"end":10789.868,"text":"那黃牛票依然橫行民怨不減所以今天我們才在這邊修這個社會法不是嗎那民眾在乎的是結果那問題沒有被解決買票還是買不到啊黃牛還是沒有被處理啊不是今天你們跟行政院開過幾次會"},{"start":10791.89,"end":10808.687,"text":"主管機關在整個執行上我們就看到心有餘而力不從心就應該要做得更好而不是隨便找藉口搪塞而內政部在這一次我們購買而意圖轉售盈利的相關票券的行為可能屬於未遂但是行政法"},{"start":10809.668,"end":10831.102,"text":"未規定處罰的未稅行為社會法亦無法處罰這樣子的未稅行為所以我們今天要討論的是意圖轉售圖利的一個行為而不是純粹的未稅行為而是像這樣子的一個情況我要在這邊特別講使用假帳號大量的搶購門票以將票券上架在這些網站上名門標價的一個價格顯示"},{"start":10833.844,"end":10854.351,"text":"並提供聯繫而準備交易的這個行為這類的行為就是社會秩序的危害具體表現的一個樣態不是只是內心想賣所以我今天提出社會法64條的一個版本修改為非公自用意圖轉售盈利謀利購買票券上架陳列"},{"start":10855.631,"end":10884.346,"text":"販售就應該加以處罰這是我們今天想要一起來探討希望能夠有警察執法人員的一個介入來作為一個更有效的一個執法但是內政部我們看PTT隨著各類的票券回歸到主管機關80年制定公佈執行的社會法第64條第二款已經完成歷史任務並可退場但是黃牛的樣態我們可以看到並非只有演唱會跟體育活動其他豬"},{"start":10885.246,"end":10906.274,"text":"諸多還有像是遊樂票券醫療袋掛號新興黃牛的這些樣態都已經進行了管理這就是之前報導有報過現行醫院或者是民醫這種熱門的門診黃牛在網路上開價卡位掛號轉手賣給有錢人導致真正有需要看病的人反而掛不到號"},{"start":10906.954,"end":10931.451,"text":"所以我想目前很少用到色違法我剛剛也應該有去詢問過內政部的同仁去年這些樣態用色違法去開罰的幾乎是沒有也是希望在這一次大家聚焦在演唱會運動票卷可是其他的新興黃牛產業是沒有專法可依的所以終究是要回到色違法去做一個處理那我們今天要如何讓色違法更好"},{"start":10932.171,"end":10949.174,"text":"這是民眾所期待的所以本席針對內政部說已完成歷史任務這個部分來希望社會法64條可以退場我感到不能夠認同那我希望這個部分這個狀況根本就沒有被處理到本席要再一次的提醒內政部部長"},{"start":10950.075,"end":10972.392,"text":"黃牛的樣態真的隨時代代變遷已經逐漸的變成更多元難以察氣的模式社會法六四條我個人認為是不能夠退場而且要給予更多的一個多元強化讓黃牛能夠無所遁形否則整個就是還是讓黃牛逍遙法外無法無天這以上是我所提的一個這個版本部長那您覺得呢我講了這麼多"},{"start":10974.994,"end":10998.116,"text":"剛剛委員所提的部分我不曉得退場是什麼意思我們是說不要修正啦那另外您剛所提到黃牛的樣態當然越來越多但是警察只有一個所以到底由誰來認定黃牛票然後要開罰多少然後他什麼叫做惡意的哄抬那當然是要有目的事業主管機關來幫忙做認定否則你現在所有的工作全部堆給警察的話其實警察沒有辦法百分之百"},{"start":10998.756,"end":11020.897,"text":"達到一般人去報案的一個結果所以我是說只有單獨去修社會秩序維護法以目前來講不符合分散立法的原則那我剛特別提到如果目的事業主管機關每一個機關都可以把他們對於黃牛的樣態或是他已經產業鏈的處理方式做源頭管理的話那我們在後端的查處一定是可以協助以上"},{"start":11021.665,"end":11036.806,"text":"我覺得就現在我剛剛所說的我們有去問過內政部那個警政署現在的社會法並沒辦法在去年沒有這樣子的一個去執行沒有去抓那可能是因為他們在這個現階段社會法的運用上是有困難的"},{"start":11037.487,"end":11062.697,"text":"那當然我能夠認同各個機關的責任也不能夠減少應該要加重但是現階段民眾的期許就是在任何的機關都有一定的責任幫忙協助把黃牛抑制到最低我們當然也希望警政署能夠幫忙但是我也要幫警政署講話的確是非常的繁重業務所以這邊我另外要提署長我從第一年就在一直在講台中市的繁重加擠"},{"start":11064.137,"end":11090.545,"text":"請問一下有沒有下文啊那我們那已經有他說要做在加成的部分我們會做全班的做全國性的這個全部的考量全國性的檢討那台中有沒有機會第二大城市的那未來我們會把它考量都是會納入考量的我要拜託我們已經是第二大城市台中的繁重佳績不應該去輸給其他的縣市啊再來我想詢問一下最後一個問題問一下我們內政部部長部長"},{"start":11092.318,"end":11116.889,"text":"您有瞭解過新加坡有一個制度叫做輔警嗎我知道有輔警但是可能沒有委員那麼清楚我不敢說我很清楚但我要跟您探討是一件事情各國都有這樣子的一個樣態其實在我們現階段也看到在警察相關的一些業務上我們看到文書作業也蠻繁重的"},{"start":11117.489,"end":11134.229,"text":"是不是能夠去聘請更多的文書人員來做支持而不是等待相關的這些警察畢業的同仁第二我們看到新加坡有所謂的輔警制度他們是透過這些相關的一些人才培訓去協助所謂的開罰單"},{"start":11136.271,"end":11165.09,"text":"交給專業的人士甚至他們的這些制度未來能不能去研議我想現場這個楊瓊英委員也帶我們去新加坡我們去了解這一個制度我不敢說它是最完美但我要講的是現在警察人員的確非常繁重包括剛剛有人在探討的我記得剛剛部長也在說有所謂的改裝噪音噪音管制的一個問題那個是所謂環境部的一個責任但是現階段署長我們是不是今年又有新法"},{"start":11165.59,"end":11183.949,"text":"所謂的噪音管制改裝噪音排氣管有一部分的認定是交給警察去處理排氣管他去所謂的認定是否源頭處理完以後我們倒交條例去把它沒有鐵排認證的這些排氣管要加以開罰對吧"},{"start":11184.73,"end":11200.547,"text":"那這個部分應該是由主管機關來認定業務主管機關他們主要認定整個排氣管他們是否合格到後面執法的時候也是要麻煩警察所以我一再的認同警察的這些相關執勤業務是非常繁重"},{"start":11201.508,"end":11228.177,"text":"那當然我們希望能夠幫忙協助員警能夠增加人力能夠增加福利這是我們最重要的所以我也希望輔警的這個制度在新加坡這個樣態有去執行未來我們是不是能夠來幫忙協助警察人員相關的一些人員進入進駐幫助他們去減少他們的相關業務我們一增一減一起來協助但是我還是回歸到今天的社會法你們有說"},{"start":11229.297,"end":11250.134,"text":"這個部分上是不需要再去修法甚至在這邊在我們看到的文書上面是有說已經完成歷史任務並可退場這不是我講的所以這部分上的用字遣職我是不能夠認同那我也非常感謝今天我們召委來排審這樣子的一個相關修正草案我們一定是一定支持那也希望所有的委員能夠一起支持謝謝"},{"start":11251.584,"end":11254.586,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷輝委員的諮詢下一位我們請鄭振權委員鄭振權委員不在下一位我們請楊瓊英委員諮詢"},{"start":11270.145,"end":11274.208,"text":"我們首先來討論警政署不斷地強調黑槍獨炸的決心跟成效但是我們看到光鮮亮麗的"},{"start":11292.903,"end":11308.373,"text":"這個績效背後是我們刑警弟兄長期的人力短缺跟沉重的壓力所以本席做了一個統計我們全國偵查組的預算原額是4674人那麼它現有的現有實際上的原額是4025人換句話說預算缺額實際上超就是649人"},{"start":11320.521,"end":11339.347,"text":"他的缺額率是13.89%那比起過去10年當然你有增加了3%儘管2023年我們放寬了警察署的徵選這個資格呢但是他的成效是有限的那刑警的荒惡化呢是嚴重的"},{"start":11339.907,"end":11362.242,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教部長跟署長我們要如何的來改善刑警人力吃緊的困境因為本席認為刑警專業如果沒有辦法順利的傳承下去那動搖的是我國非常重要的議題治安根基請教部長跟署長"},{"start":11365.309,"end":11390.714,"text":"那我想現在形式的缺口是目前大概是目前的這個狀況那未來我想就是形式的這個缺口部分我們有幾個面向來做改善第一個就是要再簡化我們非必要的形式的這個業務那第二部分就是要解決目前的這個缺口可能用支援警力燃益刑警人力的一個缺口那來進度加補這個第一線的這個人力"},{"start":11391.354,"end":11412.922,"text":"那第三個部分就是我們有對於這個報考警大的各級班或專為刑警開班的警佐班第三類這個名額我們會再來做提升那另外有兩個面向應該是蠻重要就是在工作上的獎勵不管是在工作的一個鼓勵的部分就是"},{"start":11413.842,"end":11415.264,"text":"那部長要不要補充"},{"start":11433.443,"end":11460.993,"text":"我們署長講得非常清楚原則上我們希望能夠從這個簡化非必要的形式勤務先著手然後再來就是增加新進的這個形式的同仁那如果需要警察大學或者是需要考試院來協助的話我們願意一起來努力跨部會加油但是部長跟署長在這邊如果以目前您所答覆的這四項當中第一項在業務上面第二項在"},{"start":11462.313,"end":11486.158,"text":"人不夠的部分你要有警力來支援這個也會衍生第二個問題那第三個你說從學校我們的名額來增加這非常重要這是長遠的一個規劃跟訓練那最後一項也是很重要的一點你的工作佳績你的待遇所以你研議當中你什麼時候可以研議出來"},{"start":11487.398,"end":11504.718,"text":"你要的確把你的方案拿出來因為我們目前所缺的就是這麼多人你的預算裡頭你的缺額就是有將近650位那在這樣的情況下本市要請教第四點你們的研議 你的待遇以及你的家籍什麼時候方案可以出來"},{"start":11507.245,"end":11525.31,"text":"那這個部分我們行政局正在規劃當中那我們其實很早就注意到這個問題那我們會把這個方案規劃出來之後再來做預計什麼時候可以公佈那我想這個部分你很早就知道這個問題而且你們也努力在規劃對對對你看多久時間可以告訴我們你的方案我看行政局"},{"start":11535.509,"end":11552.477,"text":"那這個部分可能也要寫掉我們的這個其他其他其他其他部分就是如此請教因為這個大家都知道非常的需要啊尤其你是主主單位啊我想是不是在三個月裡面我們把這個三個月內你提出研議"},{"start":11556.059,"end":11577.853,"text":"我們刑警的這個加級的待遇這個跟他的薪資你要提出三個月接下來最後一個議題本席請教部長部長我們在112年12月8號修正通過的殯葬管理條例我也感謝總統在我們第35條相關條文的修正總統先生是在112年的12月27號總統公佈"},{"start":11585.118,"end":11603.912,"text":"當時我很感謝我們朝野的委員大家努力的去研討而且很順利的出了委員會那也在12月27號的時候總統來做公佈那相關的配套執法修正草案還沒有完成公告所以他在新生的這個日期我們尊重行政部門"},{"start":11604.873,"end":11609.356,"text":"那我也歡喜的聽到你們預計內政部預計要在下個月下旬要開始來做相關條例的執法的修正的配套的新法的一個說明會那現在業者除了感恩之外最重要的這個開始的時間點據聞"},{"start":11625.126,"end":11646.959,"text":"是有說要7月1號要請業者開始來執行之但是我們接到陳請 朝野的委員都接到陳請也就是希望能夠延到9月1號 不要再7月1號因為在你5月下中旬或者下旬開始做各地的一個說明會那說明之後或許已經落點"},{"start":11648.58,"end":11651.604,"text":"這個六月了那七月一號倉促要上路他們不管在他的契約以及他的這個電腦化的這個相關配套都必須業者希望要有一點時間那現在業者是希望"},{"start":11663.68,"end":11671.143,"text":"他也全力的配合是希望能夠在9月1號正式上路所以我也將業者的這個心聲給部長來了解第一個我希望我們的法好不容易朝野委員這麼努力而且詳實的討論也經過總統的公告那也謝謝內政部你們在這一段時間一直在研擬這個執法那終於在5月下旬"},{"start":11691.131,"end":11714.112,"text":"開始要到各地去做說明因為本席認為這個業者他們在執行方面是必須希望要能夠落實到所以這個時間的緩衝本席認為是必要的那我也希望第二個希望在整個說明會當中也希望內政部也聆聽了業者的聲音再做一個整體性的一個整合"},{"start":11716.474,"end":11731.904,"text":"也就是希望我們要法治化讓業者也有所本而且做的可以達到一個效能所以建議在整個說明會之後凝聚大家的意見也希望將這個執行的時期是不是讓業者有一個緩衝跟設備以上建言請教部長"},{"start":11740.027,"end":11761.866,"text":"我們來檢討,委員都了解我們跟地方政府要開這個說明會分別在五月嘛,十三、十六分、二十一嘛那業者也有表達這個心聲但是我要跟委員報告我們從這個一百一十二年到現在已經超過一年四個月所以他們除非是真正碰到很大的困擾"},{"start":11762.366,"end":11769.23,"text":"其實我們是每次延三個月以後就會有人說再延三個月所以我們常常聽到這樣的聲音那我想說我們是不是把這三場的這個分區說明會再說明清楚包括我們的這個內政部處理的中理司他們在處理的過程當中會碰到什麼樣子的一個困擾那到時候再跟委員來做這個總結"},{"start":11784.36,"end":11786.944,"text":"謝謝部長的回答我們總是希望當時因為沒有院版這個法案我超感動的當時行政院內政部的代表來大家也一起好好的在研討所以這個法案當中有很多也就是朝野"},{"start":11801.884,"end":11819.812,"text":"以及行政院所提出的這個見解大家綜合出來所以可以說是一個非常成功的一個推動的法案那我們也希望推動完之後總統公告公布之後我們希望業者可以落實還有地方政府他們能夠有有充足的時間好好的來達到這個效能那我也希望就成都部長剛剛所說的"},{"start":11826.215,"end":11837.4,"text":"說明會之後你們會再去討論我們希望業者可以好好的來做時間上如果需要緩衝也希望得到政府部門的一個應許以上見言 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢下一位我們請劉建國委員質詢劉建國委員 劉建國委員不在丁薛忠委員質詢改書面下一位我們請張琦改委員質詢"},{"start":11859.997,"end":11885.918,"text":"我們劉部長一向都非常非常認真好,劉部長有請抱歉抱歉,我以為你要請署長,所以我就先下去,抱歉抱歉張委員好來,我來問你一個可能是這個世紀最大的烏龍,最大的擾民"},{"start":11888.803,"end":11910.319,"text":"而且應該是要國賠4月2號移民署寄了一萬多份的通知給陸配結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女根本就沒有大陸的戶籍你們全部把它寄出去對不對"},{"start":11916.395,"end":11943.569,"text":"我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則"},{"start":11945.39,"end":11964.738,"text":"那事後移民署有跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉"},{"start":11972.932,"end":12001.003,"text":"你鄭重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉"},{"start":12001.903,"end":12022.482,"text":"你應該再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛,對不對地市業更嚴重啊,保證你只要從4月,我要講這個比較嚴重,你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去,對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西本來就沒有東西嘛,你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠"},{"start":12024.004,"end":12043.574,"text":"報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有這個中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會"},{"start":12044.814,"end":12072.963,"text":"來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認"},{"start":12074.443,"end":12094.073,"text":"那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件"},{"start":12100.596,"end":12128.522,"text":"但是他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身分證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身分證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色"},{"start":12129.022,"end":12138.088,"text":"也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生"},{"start":12157.599,"end":12185.347,"text":"這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成的困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委然後辦公室解釋嘛"},{"start":12186.027,"end":12206.447,"text":"他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好 例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸輝主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸輝都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔"},{"start":12207.067,"end":12220.451,"text":"第一個要求我是剛剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說張其凱你有你就要回大陸去"},{"start":12228.755,"end":12254.026,"text":"陸委主委也承認啊他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話或者到移民署到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講連找哪個地方的公安你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是自辦生你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後啊那你就回大陸去"},{"start":12255.026,"end":12277.265,"text":"就造成這樣一個擾民嘛 這是一個很大問題所以我具體 我先跟你講一下這個事情很嚴重 老實講 這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去前台灣幾十萬陸配 很多家裡面那個兵荒馬亂 雞尾果跳的那可能如果被你們註銷 或者要驅逐出境那就變兩岸的人球 一台都沒了嘛"},{"start":12278.834,"end":12308.162,"text":"多少家庭因為這樣子最近這一個多月 將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化 多大一個擔心我列幾個個案給你聽我大概說到幾百件 裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥 一個年輕的 他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了"},{"start":12309.535,"end":12334.918,"text":"連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟"},{"start":12335.902,"end":12340.746,"text":"你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配下次又是哪個族群"},{"start":12363.885,"end":12368.406,"text":"到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了"},{"start":12393.953,"end":12406.696,"text":"你那個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒他說哈囉30年前欸正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是個台灣人啊"},{"start":12418.081,"end":12439.651,"text":"結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的修正案我們明確的規定"},{"start":12441.974,"end":12470.616,"text":"民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第1個在我剛才說的"},{"start":12472.083,"end":12500.547,"text":"陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有給錢沒好不好你不要他跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你是不是先知之外你是不是應該去個函"},{"start":12502.418,"end":12515.395,"text":"你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函帳說我之前走不到了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了"},{"start":12520.502,"end":12536.171,"text":"時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":12538.336,"end":12555.287,"text":"我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專勤隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨"},{"start":12556.247,"end":12581.635,"text":"4月21號以後就有結果21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便"},{"start":12582.535,"end":12596.262,"text":"或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們"},{"start":12599.764,"end":12625.383,"text":"另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條請求權時效的消滅的部分呢"},{"start":12629.246,"end":12656.162,"text":"他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考是政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講"},{"start":12657.744,"end":12660.108,"text":"這個也不公平但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊"},{"start":12665.078,"end":12686.981,"text":"你現在賭職,你們在21年前就賭職了啊,是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理,你應該用一個比較完整,比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了,我們提了你們現在的六大排除,你說你們解決方案就是六大排除嘛太窄化了,你現在解決了,大概是打折打折打折,再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛,你就把他全部放寬"},{"start":12688.243,"end":12711.658,"text":"全部放寬,不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範?怎麼會不符合呢?那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任,我們提出修法我們非常負責任,我就是在你執行之前的民國93年的3.1號之前的一定用拒絕的方式,不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的,那在這個時間點之後的範圍,我們就授權由"},{"start":12712.817,"end":12734.289,"text":"陸委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天陸委會主委跟副主委有講"},{"start":12735.609,"end":12762.787,"text":"但是是從星期一才開始有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛剛講的是根本要解決的一個要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍"},{"start":12763.952,"end":12784.541,"text":"這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的"},{"start":12787.262,"end":12805.501,"text":"你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3號全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除再擴大一點好不好 不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法 已經會送到委員會去審查了"},{"start":12806.701,"end":12827.31,"text":"我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事務不要讓民眾來承受這種不可能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍"},{"start":12829.251,"end":12843.168,"text":"現在沒有這樣的案例啊你現在不是現在盡情事嗎現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎"},{"start":12844.685,"end":12859.373,"text":"我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們說沒有要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理"},{"start":12860.713,"end":12878.679,"text":"要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把它處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是 所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":12882.574,"end":12885.876,"text":"下一位我們請林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員不在蔡益委員蔡益委員蔡益委員不在下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":12912.255,"end":12933.806,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我會議請問一下今天練習是4分鐘還是4加104分鐘但通常我們原則上為了鼓勵委員多質詢我們今天時間還可以因為我們後面還要處理無邊際的質詢我們都知道邱志文委員做準時這是基本的會議的程序我覺得內政委員會時間過得比較慢等一下4分鐘就變14分鐘"},{"start":12939.994,"end":12957.27,"text":"好 先請內政部 劉世芳部長休息一下因為上面之前的質詢 你站太久了請張榮興 張署長好 張署長有請好 環境部也好 好不好 環境部跟交通部交通部監理師胡副市長"},{"start":12959.158,"end":12984.066,"text":"我來示範一下什麼是160秒咨詢4分鐘240秒請相關單位現行噪音管制法第六條規定製造不具持續性或不予測量足以妨礙他人生活安寧聲音者由警察機關依社會符合72條來做處理對不對這個署長你有沒有去過日本去過有沒有搭乘過日本的交通工具"},{"start":12986.069,"end":13007.929,"text":"沒有 我都是坐他們的遊覽車遊覽車或者是他們的地下鐵或者是他們的新幹線在交通運輸工具裡面是不能講電話的很明確不能講電話你知道嗎包括巴士裡面 公用巴士裡面包括他們的新幹線你去車廂跟車廂之間的車間他有一個讓你打電話區域"},{"start":13012.937,"end":13038.744,"text":"嚴格執行而且大家彼此變成一個他們的這個生活的一個習慣我們現在大家都用通訊軟體對不對對他們的傳收嘟嘟嘟嘟噗噗那聲音你們聽過有啊哇就差了我是每天搭高鐵三個半小時如果說隔壁比較誇張直接用擴音講電話他家祖宗十八代我都知道"},{"start":13041.135,"end":13068.187,"text":"你只用擴音 擴音沒關係這個屬於個案 極端個案但是很普遍一般都是使用電話 大聲地講電話再來 他用通訊軟體在傳收那種聲音 持續性我一定 我的電話絕對是靜音啊任何狀況絕對是靜音這個部分是不是要學習日本的做法"},{"start":13069.755,"end":13082.587,"text":"考慮一下交通部這個你們應該要多加宣導然後是不是可以學習日本的做法多一點的宣導然後是不是用法律來做一些的調整"},{"start":13085.275,"end":13110.238,"text":"這個我先請教一下署長署長這個如果說其他先進的國家有這樣的一個制度的話我們的法律如果能夠規範完整那也教育我們的民眾來做這樣的實施我覺得這是先進國家的做法是嘛人家日本都做得到而且落實到所有的公共公共載具公共的這個運輸工具喔所以這個已經形之有臉而且每一個人的生活習慣就彼此不要太自私"},{"start":13111.796,"end":13116.052,"text":"不要個人的這個方便然後影響別人的這個作息的這個案例"},{"start":13117.072,"end":13142.058,"text":"這個警政署要注意因為你們採取是你們在採取嘛對不對沒有如果說是這個鐵路上的這些狀況應該是有鐵路法的規範鐵路鐵路法鐵路法規定可是你這是那現在這個不預測量這些如果說其他的噪音如果說屬於在中環沒有的話才適用這個設置法來規範所以鐵路法是交通部主管對不對交通部看法怎麼樣交通部來"},{"start":13144.831,"end":13156.384,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們現在都有在做一些宣導像是像鐵路的車廂啊 網播都沒有用 有沒有家鄉巡查有沒有辦法這個路法 這個可以討論"},{"start":13158.365,"end":13178.884,"text":"日本 我不曉得他有沒有入法 沒有入法 也沒有相關的法治但是他們的這個國民就遵守這個生活習慣這個基本上是有公德心的這個要落實在教育 落實在很多的宣導 這很重要那如果真的還是沒有辦法改善是不是有相關的法律可以採取 這個你們可以要去思考"},{"start":13179.68,"end":13200.018,"text":"我們現在其實像我們的相關包括公務法包括鐵路法相關的一個規定就是對於說已經有造成其他乘客影響的狀況下是可以做一些法規上的處理這個我已經深受困擾十幾年 因為搭十幾年高鐵"},{"start":13202.81,"end":13220.669,"text":"我想每一個搭高鐵變成我們的日常生活通勤的習慣這個部分你們要去思考面對我資訊到了我要示範什麼叫做非常優質的質詢不是四加十主席你也大概了解一下謝謝最準時的邱志偉委員的質詢"},{"start":13223.268,"end":13245.175,"text":"好 我也跟大家報告一下原則上因為今天下午我們本來就有法條的審查啦那原則上我們都會希望每個委員把自己的立場清楚表達那只要清楚表達之後如果真的真的有像剛剛那樣講不完的情況之下那我們當然就會適時的來做一下處理好 下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在好現在"},{"start":13247.386,"end":13268.147,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束丁薛忠委員所提出書面記錄6月6日記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會報告委員會我們現在進行法案條文宣讀請宣讀討論事項所列法案之條文"},{"start":13269.966,"end":13291.247,"text":"第9條委員嚴寬寒等16人提案序文之左列文字修正為下列第一項第三款修正為精神好弱或聽覺語言障礙者其餘同先行條文第64條委員羅廷偉等16人提案第二款修正為二非公自用購買運輸票遊樂票券藝文票券運動票券醫療票券餐旅食宿票券各式休閒及商品"},{"start":13292.321,"end":13315.19,"text":"票卷而意图转售盈利者及转售图利者其余同信息条文文高金素美等21人提案虚文之左列修正为下列其余同委员罗廷伟等16人提案文王宏威等24人提案虚文之罚还提高为新台币38000元38000元以下罚还第二款修正为而非公自用购买运输游乐票卷一文票卷运动票卷医疗票卷"},{"start":13315.65,"end":13331.329,"text":"参旅时速票券各式休闲及产品票券而意图转售盈利者及转售图利者其余同现行条文委员林思明等22人提案训文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处3月以下聚联或新台币38000元以下罚还"},{"start":13331.849,"end":13348.252,"text":"第二款修正为二,非公司用户非经相关主办单位授权购买运输票、游乐票券、艺文票券、运动竞赛票券、医疗票券、参旅时速票券、其他娱乐休闲票券或商品折扣票券并转售或搭售方式图例者,其余同现行条文。"},{"start":13349.013,"end":13376.1,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案序文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处三日以下拘留或新台币三万元以下罚款第二款修正为二非公资用购买运输游乐票券医疗括号支票券而意图转售盈利者及而转售图利者其余同现行条文文秋若华等19人提案第二款修正为非公资用购买运输游乐票券医疗括号支票券而意图转售盈利者及图利者其余同台湾民众党党团提案"},{"start":13377.25,"end":13393.907,"text":"第七十二条台湾民众党党团提案虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处新台币一万八千元以下罚还其余同线型条文文秋若华等19人提案虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处新台币一万元以下罚还其余同线型条文"},{"start":13394.568,"end":13419.295,"text":"第89条委员鲁明哲等17人提案虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处3日以下拘留或新台币3万元以下罚还第二款修正为二无正当理由跟踪或骚扰他人金券组不听者其余同性情条文委员宽恒等16人提案第一项虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处新台币10万元以下罚还第二款修正为"},{"start":13419.955,"end":13440.709,"text":"二 無正當理由騷擾或跟蹤他人 經勸阻不聽者增訂第二項對未成年人有前二項行為者加重處罰至二分之一 其餘同現行條文委員魯明哲等十八人提案 序文修正為由左列各款行為之一者處三日以下拘留或薪台幣三萬元以下罰還其餘同委員魯明哲等十七人提案 宣讀完畢好 謝謝 我們現在休息用餐 下午一點繼續開會 現在休息"},{"start":16297.154,"end":16301.597,"text":"文案報告委員會我們繼續開會現在請宣讀修正動議跟附帶決議修正動議第64條第一項罰款提高為新台幣三萬元以下"},{"start":16312.041,"end":16333.617,"text":"第1项第2款修正为非工资用购买运输票、游乐票券、医疗票券、参旅时速票券、各式休闲及商品票券而意图转售盈利者及转售图利者增订第2项至第6项前项第2款以超过票面金额或定价贩售者按票券张数由主管机关处票面金额或定价之10倍至50倍罚还"},{"start":16334.097,"end":16342.405,"text":"以虛偽資料或其他不正方式利用電腦或其他相關設備購買第一項第二款票券取得定票或取票憑證者應按票券章數因該"},{"start":16343.979,"end":16366.961,"text":"处罚条款至最高罚还才罚主管机关对于检举查获第一项第二款规定之行为除应对检举人身份资料严守秘密外并得着于奖励对于检举人身份资料之保密与诉讼程序一同第一项第二款主管机关受理检举案件之管辖处理期间保密检举人奖励及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之"},{"start":16367.461,"end":16376.019,"text":"本条第一项第二款制裁罚准则由中央主管机关定之其余同性行条文提案人文高金素美等四人附带决议"},{"start":16377.236,"end":16402.523,"text":"有鉴于目前凡财网络抢票限量预约机制的资源几乎都成了黄牛套利的目标黄牛无所不在反应的正式制度破洞与政府长期失能本次修正社会秩序维护法不只是为了打击黄牛更是要守住公平社会的基本规则然若修法后没有搭配专责人力与调查机制恐怕又会重蹈文化部的覆车民众踊跃检举确实"},{"start":16403.303,"end":16404.964,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在進行主條討論我們用協商的方式來處理 現在進行協商"},{"start":16462.438,"end":16467.882,"text":"我先確認一下大家手上都有包含修正動議在內的資料嗎修正動議跟附帶決議我們先確認一下好這個法案總共現在四個條文要處理啦那我們今天目標應該還算是收束範圍啦看看有沒有辦法達成一定的共識但是如果沒有的話我們花一點點時間都來討論我認為是沒有問題的那就請大家踴躍發言踴躍表達意見我們一條一條來好不好這個首先"},{"start":16491.115,"end":16507.991,"text":"第九條的修正案這個嚴況委員有委託本席來做處理他的意思是這樣因為這個有身心障礙權利公約嘛就希望把這個有歧視性意涵的這個語言來做一個消除所以他希望把所謂的英雅人改成聽覺跟語言障礙的人但是我也跟大家報告一下我們包含看這個"},{"start":16509.392,"end":16526.104,"text":"各部會的說明都有提到嘛就是伊亞人是有一個特殊的定義嘛就是要有先天性而且等於是不能講話也聽不到才符合他當初的一個定義那行政機關這裡的意思是說既然行政法法已經有相關的一些規範其實可以甚至就整條不要處理啦"},{"start":16526.826,"end":16550.929,"text":"那我聽一下各位委員針對這樣子處置的一個方法或者是說有沒有別的方法比如說有比英雅人不具歧視性的一些名詞然後他可以維持相關的這樣子的一個意義有沒有這樣子的一些說法我們請各位委員或行政機關發表意見我們請衛福部先說一下來衛福部就針對歧視性語言等等相關的部分可不可以做一下說明謝謝"},{"start":16570.27,"end":16591.284,"text":"好 報告委員 那個因為這個歧視信用語這個部分他這個話應該是屬於我們另外一個社交所的一個業務所以說這個部分我們今天目前是沒有接到一個訊息要去回應這個議題好 這個部分可能這個地方可能比較抱歉 謝謝不是嘛 你說明一下英雅人到底是不是一個共通的對啊"},{"start":16596.76,"end":16610.684,"text":"社交署這邊是建議主管機關的建議那就是尊重就是主管機關在業務執行上面去判斷說任何人聽覺障礙才具有無識別能力的話才能免除那我們這邊是沒有其他的建議 謝謝來保護就是他這樣公開就是他沒意見"},{"start":16630.7,"end":16640.884,"text":"主席跟委員說明就如內政部書面報告所述因為英雅人這幾個字他是早期立法就用了"},{"start":16641.784,"end":16661.127,"text":"那如果參考社會法這一條的立法目立法說明當時的立法理由還有司法院司法院對刑事責任因雅人也曾經做出解釋那綜合這兩個角度來看所謂的因雅人大概他的內涵是指"},{"start":16662.388,"end":16673.943,"text":"從小時候自幼然後既陰且雅就是說耳朵跟語言能力都喪失了這個狀況所以他的要件是很嚴謹的那委員的提案用的是"},{"start":16676.686,"end":16702.265,"text":"聽覺或者是語言障礙那聽覺跟語言障礙的程度可能有重度、中度、輕度它的範圍會比較廣所以如果議委的提案這樣修它不是只有名詞的改變而已它的適用內涵也會有出入跟社會法原本的立法的印亞人這個定義會有出入所以我想內政部才會有提出這一個書面說明那第二個就是說"},{"start":16703.546,"end":16728.573,"text":"目前行政法法因為行政秩序法也是行政處罰的一種範圍之內那行政法法對於這個責任能力的規定他在第第九條第九條他不是用陰陽人他是用辨識能力有沒有欠缺的問題就是說是不是心神障礙精神障礙或這個其他"},{"start":16731.195,"end":16757.832,"text":"心神障礙或心智缺陷等於從這個角度去辨別有沒有辨識能力他沒有再用陰雅人去判定責任能力了所以如果主管機關因為社會法主管機關在內政部如果主管機關他們認為說整個回歸到行政法法就可以了責任能力整個回歸到行政法法不要再這一條又特別去寫陰雅人那我想這個我們"},{"start":16758.892,"end":16785.094,"text":"尊重主管機關的意見這個部分我就沒有意見我只想請教一下如果照這樣修法聽覺或語言障礙者對重聽跟口級算不算在裡面如果你要如果從字面文藝解釋你只要有這兩種的障礙都包括在裡面但是它程度有高有低所以它的範圍是很廣那印亞人的範圍是很窄"},{"start":16786.536,"end":16791.189,"text":"會有這個問題 所以它不是名詞的觀感問題 它會有定義適用的問題啦好 李博主委"},{"start":16796.311,"end":16817.257,"text":"因為我知道現在刑法20條裡面也有鷹啞人的行為得減輕其刑對那如果照這個如果我們要來討論這個修法的邏輯要把鷹啞人改成聽障或語言障礙人士的話第一個有剛剛你講的程度輕重的問題之外那刑法這個要不要處理"},{"start":16819.07,"end":16836.017,"text":"因為刑法那個是刑事責任的領域啦那社會秩序法他是行政處罰行政法秩序法的領域這是兩個不一樣的那當然那邊黨早期立法的時候可能有去參考刑法的這個用語啦好謝謝吼"},{"start":16842.383,"end":16869.769,"text":"不好意思不好意思不好意思我再請教當初特別講英雅人應該是在刑法在什麼對這些如果他犯罪可以減輕其刑或什麼的用意吧對對嘛所以這個定義應該要準確嘛所以司法院司法院才針對這英雅人這個名詞特別做出解釋來OK好謝謝我的問題是這樣我再請一下社家署好不好"},{"start":16869.909,"end":16885.602,"text":"因為這我們剛剛要問的問題並不是針對這個法條的問題是伊亞人到底在現在的這個身心障礙公約等等的規定裡面他算不算歧視性名詞嘛這第一個第二個就是說如果他屬於歧視性名詞的話什麼樣的名詞可以完全的替代這樣的範圍嘛"},{"start":16886.883,"end":16908.272,"text":"因為按照現在委員提案的版本顯然它的範圍是不一樣的嘛以前現在嬰雅人是取交集嘛聽不到這個不能講話而且要先天性三者的交集才叫嬰雅人可是按照現在的版本聽覺原狀變連集嘛就只要有通通算嘛所以表示這個用詞不夠精準要調整那問題是怎麼調整才能夠符合本來的定義但是又沒有歧視性這才是這條的關鍵我們是不是請社交組說明一下"},{"start":16912.184,"end":16933.265,"text":"聽障跟語言障礙者他就是如果又聽障又語障的話其實我們就是稱作聽語障那我們就是有透過鑑定的制度然後會取得這個身份那其實是比較以社會福利的這個身份的制度去看待那因為我們自己組內討論的時候是就是覺得說如果是改成聽障與聽語障的話"},{"start":16935.727,"end":16948.037,"text":"對我們來講的話當然是比較就是這個名詞是比較中性一點但因為就是今天也有看到說就是司法院的這個議事的解釋之後我們有回去就是我有先跟我們主管討論過這件事情那因為這個部分的話就是聽語障的範圍是其實是比較大的"},{"start":16952.981,"end":16978.416,"text":"那也是剛剛如同法務部的長官講說就是其實它的障礙程度也有落差那剛剛提到的重聽或是可能就是還甚至不到就是拿到帳別的身份的這種狀態下的話如果把它擴大成這樣的話是不是對原本的立法一直來講是比較寬鬆的所以我們主管這邊是對於這件事這個名詞的話目前就是我們可能如果要再做調整的話要後續就是要再回去署內再去進行做研議"},{"start":16987.226,"end":17008.182,"text":"她的意思是說確實是有一點歧視性但是要怎麼樣精準的符合過去那個英雅人的這樣一個版本好像還沒有一個很合適的名詞大概是這個意思嘛對不對對 她說有 她剛剛的回答是覺得有一些這樣子的意味啦來 再說明一下吧"},{"start":17011.641,"end":17040.161,"text":"其實在身障者的看待來講的話就是身障者看到確實會有感覺到比較不舒服的感覺比較沒有那麼中性啦但是因為這個名詞其實看起來也是是一個名詞的概念就是它敘述這個人的身體的狀況但對身障者來講的話他會認為說這好像沒有那麼的中性那如果你改成聽障或聽語障的話來講他覺得會比較是中性的概念"},{"start":17044.155,"end":17048.516,"text":"主席,我聽他這樣說,大廢話真的,說這個米不好,要改議員障礙你又說不可以這樣改,還要回去討論今天你又知道要修這個法律,應該沒有事先討論"},{"start":17069.875,"end":17075.1,"text":"對嗎?你最起碼這件故事 你說有歧視那你們有這個感覺 你們感冒這幾天接著說今天要收這個回來要討論一下那你這樣說 根本是要怎麼收下去"},{"start":17092.52,"end":17113.493,"text":"你剛才沒聽到蔣威夷說的意思,他說要改,可能要改給什麼可以代表可以接受,還是他這個名詞的詢問是法律上的要這樣規定,跟你們都沒說到重點,以上"},{"start":17118.744,"end":17125.275,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員這個希望行政機關多用點心啦好不好你剛剛講社交組說還要再研議你多久研議出來用麥克風講"},{"start":17129.285,"end":17155.739,"text":"應該是說我們本來是尊重委員的提案就是改成這現在的版本但因為因為他們法律事務範圍不一樣所以就不只是這個問題所以就是就是看到內政部這個這個早上我們是有先詢問過主管的話是覺得說如果內政部因為他是執法的主管機關那如果他們的他們的認定是這樣的就是在處理就是進行的狀況是可以處理的話我們就沒有要覺得一定就是就是可以尊重他們現在提出的這個文字的版本"},{"start":17155.939,"end":17184.237,"text":"那我們本來一開始在署內討論的時候是尊重委員提案的版本好好謝謝社家署好我現在要進入我們每個題目我們都花一點點時間討論就好好然後我們就今天有共識就可以有共識沒有共識我們還會再排時間大家不用擔心那另外一個是現在我們看到這個行政機關書面報告的一個概念啦就是說因為行政法法已經可以涵蓋這個範圍所以他乾脆就把這個等於是陰陽人就直接把它刪掉嘛就改改真精神後悔者"},{"start":17190.169,"end":17195.687,"text":"來內政部麻煩說明一下因為你們現在給的修法意見是乾脆把它刪除因為行政法法可以判斷"},{"start":17198.905,"end":17222.456,"text":"沒有 我覺得他寫得蠻清楚沒關係 我們請羅師傅幫我們說明一下剛好我們聽到那個法務部的見解其實跟我們所寫的很相近就是現在的行政法法第九條裡面把這個陰雅人這三個字刪掉然後他所列的這個文字上就是寫說行為時因為精神障礙或其他心智缺陷等等等等等等又把它寫進去就是他描述一個狀態等於不是說用聽語障因為聽語障的範圍跟所謂的陰雅人確實不太一樣"},{"start":17227.879,"end":17254.548,"text":"那這樣子呢是不是我們在因為這個是行政法法嘛所以那個這樣子的是不是會比較相同啦大概是有這樣子的見解那而且我們也寫在書面報告裡面就是這樣的提案是不是建議刪除印亞人的規定然後不要用這個那個顏寬恒委員所提到的所謂的身心障礙權利公約裡面的聽與障人士以上對啊所以他確實是要刪除蘇曉慧委員"},{"start":17255.969,"end":17276.922,"text":"不好意思所以延續我早上的這個質詢一樣就是我一樣是對於這個書面報告的這個文字其實有點不太懂故對這個第二頁你書面報告第二頁嘛表示你對這次提案的狀況內政部故對於本次提案建議刪除英雅人之規定這句話到底是什麼意思啊就所以"},{"start":17284.039,"end":17311.232,"text":"就改成精神耗弱者這樣嗎精神耗弱者然後或嬰雅人他就要把它拿掉啊直接刪掉對所以不是做文字修正這邊是直接刪掉或嬰雅人四個字這是內政部的對我想對所以我說我們寫的不是很清楚就是本次提案建議刪除嬰雅人的規定應該是說嬰雅人這三個字不是規定啦規定不是我們規定的那因為我們有參考就是司法院的1700號的解釋意旨"},{"start":17313.809,"end":17338.888,"text":"所以以後嬰雅人不以保護部上面的見解會比較清楚啦就沒有要檢清處罰就對了啦應該說他就是用行政法法如果要確定他可以欠缺辨識行為能力不採用顏寬恆的版本應該是這樣說然後如果要的話就把我知道我知道但是因為我們又覺得嬰雅人這三個字好像在字面上有歧視的意思剛剛衛福部的同仁是這樣說嘛這樣就是"},{"start":17344.795,"end":17359.738,"text":"所以移除其實也會影響法律效果嘛因為行政法法講的是因為各種狀況以至於欠缺辨識行為能力者嘛所以不見得英雅人就一定符合了法律對不對第一個我們是希望維持原來的都不動這是一個"},{"start":17360.399,"end":17381.075,"text":"這是一個那但是因為大家在討論就是英雅人會有歧視所以可不可以要改要改的話聽語障那個範圍又擴充太大那所以我們才說那可以採用其他的說法就是把英雅人者或是或英雅人這三個字劃掉或是把它取消掉所以這兩個讓委員來參考啦來旁邊要補充沒關係直接補充沒關係啊"},{"start":17391.736,"end":17410.204,"text":"各位好如果說還是要維持現行英雅人這樣子的範圍但是用詞上因為要尊重就是聽覺語言障礙者這樣子的用詞的話那是不是就是另外譬如說以另外一項去說明說這個聽覺語言障礙者是"},{"start":17414.065,"end":17437.631,"text":"限於自幼就是自幼及據聽覺語言障礙者這樣子就是他在字面文藝上還有他的意思上都會跟本來英雅人的範圍是相同的然後他的文字也不會就是有歧視的意味我就想聽這個如果可以寫出一個來"},{"start":17440.523,"end":17445.746,"text":"我們這條先保留我們進下一條討論你剛剛把你的這個字面我最後確認一下我們首先我們在處理這個條文我們在處理的是第九條下列各款之人的行為得減輕處罰所以我們是要先辨識我們這一屆委員現在很慎重的把社會秩序維護法拿出來討論哪些人可以減輕處罰我們是否同意一二三項我們的這個範圍到底是什麼"},{"start":17466.016,"end":17469.418,"text":"所以首先我們必須處理我們有這個聽覺我們有這個說話這個障礙到所謂過往其實陰涯陰涯也不過就是文言文陰和雅這樣的狀況這種類別人到底要不要讓他減輕其刑這是我們第一個應該要決定的層次嘛他是不是在得減輕其刑的範疇內"},{"start":17487.228,"end":17504.378,"text":"如果大家都同意它依然應該要維持在範疇內那我們要試著去想出一個適合的文字來描述符合現代的社會用語好 那接下來我們在處理這個文字用語的時候有沒有可以比過往的英雅更適合詮釋的狀況或我們因此也要調整它的狀態嘛"},{"start":17508.868,"end":17532.333,"text":"那目前為止現在如果想得出來對啊他剛剛就提出來就是這個概念就是他叫什麼先天性聽語障者之類的嘛但是那個是已經在後期了我們要先決定音雅的這個部分音雅就是他要先原本的音雅我們是不是要繼續放在範圍裡面大家現在要同意是還是不是嘛我想沒有人應該不會反對吧我覺得也是"},{"start":17532.813,"end":17559.74,"text":"大家這次的修法一直並沒有要把它拿掉沒有要拿掉所以我們如果想不出更好的名詞的話唯一可以處理的狀況應該是用現行條文繼續保留才對啊怎麼會這永遠因噎廢食呢你想不出一個更好的詞彙結果變成說哎呀因為我想不出詞彙我就把它從剪清期限這邊拿掉這很奇怪吧"},{"start":17560.9,"end":17588.841,"text":"報告委員因為英雅的這個定義一到現行司法院已經有解釋那是把司法院解釋的文字我們參考然後對你就寫出一個新的文字我覺得我徵詢一下委員們在場審查委員們就我們都不要拿掉嘛只是要把它修一個比較中性的名詞然後概念一模一樣嘛對不對我想提案委員看回的意思也是這樣那我們就這樣那我們就請行政機關準備一下好不好你剛剛有提出一個蠻接近的版本先把它寫出來可以嗎"},{"start":17590.014,"end":17607.105,"text":"好你先選擇我們這條先保留好64條這條大概要花比較長的時間來做討論大家充分發言針對黃牛票的部分範疇法規進行的部分來怎麼來處理還有罰則大概定什麼樣的程度請各位委員充分發言"},{"start":17607.967,"end":17622.61,"text":"警告局委員對跟召委跟在場的委員們說明一下我有一個修正動議那大家看一下修正動議的前項第二款那個部分那個文字我們物質上去了那一整塊拿掉那一款整個拿掉"},{"start":17623.311,"end":17648.212,"text":"前項第二款已超過票面金額或定價販售者按票卷章數由主管機關處票面金額或定價之十倍至五十倍的罰款這個拿掉這一整段拿掉因為第六十四條上面已經有講說各款行為之一者處三日以下拘留或新台幣三萬元以下罰款這個部分已經有了所以那一整個拿掉"},{"start":17648.732,"end":17674.832,"text":"接著下來就是我多了這個第二項第三項第四項第五項然後這個部分呢當然就是在第三項裡面我們有吹哨者的這個部分然後第四項裡面呢是希望能夠有那個第三項是檢舉人然後第四項呢是按照消保處建議要針對一不正方式輸入電腦的這些的行為"},{"start":17677.054,"end":17688.708,"text":"然後第五項的話我們是希望由中央主管機關中央主管就內政部第一項的第二款裁罰的準則由他們來定以上說明一下謝謝好 請黃教練"},{"start":17693.629,"end":17711.707,"text":"好那我的意见跟早上质询的时候一样因为其实现在文创法是罚的更重那我认为要二纸黄牛回归文创法里面的罚则的要件跟他的罚金会比较好因为其实文创法里面是直接提五倍到"},{"start":17713.649,"end":17742.388,"text":"50倍嘛然後裡面的要件也寫得很明確必須要高於票面的金額那樣子要去開罰是比較明確的不會因為說像社會法裡面過去被人詬病的就是因為他寫到說非公自用然後是要轉售等等因為這一些文字的不明確導致一直抓不到黃牛這就是過去為什麼大家一直跟我們澄清說希望一定要有一個很明確可以抓到黃牛的辦法"},{"start":17743.188,"end":17769.22,"text":"所以才會修了文創法當時的修法的過程是這樣那現在如果我們又在這邊設違法裡面要訂一些黃牛的罰則那我會認為其實無濟於事啦因為就是你這樣訂下去之後大家還是罰不到最後我們還是會用文創法去罰而且那個是罰得很重的而且甚至是那個罰則就是除了說五倍到五十倍然後也有說要罰三百萬"},{"start":17770.04,"end":17775.931,"text":"那那個其實我是覺得會比較有效也是真的可以對症下藥啦我的意見是這樣"},{"start":17777.237,"end":17805.307,"text":"好謝謝再請高卿委員我想黃協委員可能沒有看到修正動力的部分那我們在64條本領會講藝文票卷跟運動票卷那藝文票卷已經拿掉了運動票卷也拿掉了因為這個是在這個文創法跟運廠法或者是鐵路法就有了那目前我們講到的是目前沒有專法的部分那怎麼樣先來補漏洞所以呢你看一下第一項的第二款"},{"start":17806.027,"end":17832.192,"text":"非公自用購買運輸票遊樂票券醫療票券參與時數票券各式休閒及商品票券而意圖轉售營利者還有轉售圖利者這個部分是沒有包括在所謂的文創法跟運產法跟鐵路法裡面被保障到的所以您麻煩您看一下修正動議的第一項第二款以上謝謝"},{"start":17834.52,"end":17855.379,"text":"好 謝謝我們還有委員有意見嗎我們請先請法務部說明一下好不好因為我覺得這一條我們的文字上大家要斟酌一下啦包含有沒有跟其他法條打架嘛還有說現在增列的這些東西會是一個什麼樣的一個狀況我們是不是請行政機關做一下說明好 美惠委員好 美惠委員"},{"start":17856.243,"end":17877.676,"text":"就是在這裡有很多委員在說我們的修法的理由就是裡面有說要發未遂的那個未遂的是不是有問題什麼叫做未遂啊請法務部跟內政部它的行政法裡面的處罰裡面有發未遂的嗎"},{"start":17883.382,"end":17884.906,"text":"在這個問題 我覺得有很多委員體在裡面我們這個法 就是說"},{"start":17891.429,"end":17904.472,"text":"他規定要發三萬塊,但是我們裡面的有到當年後是發六萬塊的啦在社會委員會裡面第19條就有規定,最多可以發到三萬塊啦所以我覺得我們的法律是不是自己的,要自己想辦法因為我覺得這個問題也很大關的"},{"start":17920.216,"end":17937.868,"text":"現在還有一個問題,代表有說貴公用自用的購買運輸票啦譬如這樣說,利用者如果寄票,送的時候要買起來,他再去買,他買的價錢又多少,跟這要算什麼,以上"},{"start":17946.886,"end":17960.283,"text":"我覺得這個原法裡面當然第二款裡面是說非公自用購買運輸遊樂券那運輸我們簡單講就是車票嘛那車票當然這一部分我們支持"},{"start":17961.044,"end":17978.246,"text":"就是原條文但是這一個修正動議我首先肯定已經先把藝文票券跟運動票券拿掉我首先肯定但是我還是要提出一個問題出來餐飲食宿票券這個可能會牽涉到有一些市場的關係比如說自助餐券"},{"start":17979.367,"end":17997.793,"text":"支付餐券他如果有優待,然後到時候是原價賣,那他有沒有獲利?有,但是這件事情會不會發生?很容易發生喔,就是比如說原價一萬塊十張但是他一個人進去可能是一千二一張"},{"start":17999.353,"end":18016.803,"text":"那就發生了喔所以這個我們是不是應該要拿出來討論一下或者是餐飲食宿票券它有很多喔它有可能住宿券有沒有含早餐有沒有優惠我覺得這有很多都是市場的因素齁這把它入法進來可能會有造成一些問題我覺得可以討論一下 謝謝好"},{"start":18023.718,"end":18045.394,"text":"這一條大概是這樣有幾個啦一個就是罰則嘛但我覺得罰則就罰三萬大家應該不會有意見因為大家都覺得黃流行為很猖獗嘛這個就是規範專法未及之部分嘛當然應該從那剛剛那個王美惠有講到19條有規定對你在社會法裡面基本上所有的罰的最高就是三萬那我們就罰則的部分應該罰三萬大家應該不會有意見嘛現在意見是範圍嘛跟一些相關的配套措施嘛"},{"start":18046.46,"end":18074.825,"text":"對啊 我們現在先討論修正動議嘛我們現在以高居委員修正動議為主嘛因為先處理修正動議嘛 對不對所以其實今天這樣大體討論就是收束成同一個版本嘛這樣才是符合修正法律的這個初衷嘛所以前面有要去寫抄文當然要配合修正動議來做調整所以我覺得就是罰三萬那再來就是範圍的部分嘛剛剛體育議員因為有專法規定就不用再寫了 避免法條打架嘛那剩下的部分好 看大家有沒有意見來 另外一個我們請行政機關來做一下說明啦"},{"start":18076.599,"end":18103.99,"text":"來我先請法務部好了這個對法條的邏輯各項各方面有一定的專業的代表性針對剛剛我們這樣討論過來的修正動議有沒有一些想法對還有有關於這個意圖未遂的部分要怎麼樣來定怎麼樣來定OK好請法務部說明一下主席各位那我想分幾個層次第一個就是說因為我們現在高金委員的修正動議他是"},{"start":18106.021,"end":18113.877,"text":"拿掉那個藝文票卷跟運動票卷但是呢也新增加了像醫療票卷餐飲旅宿"},{"start":18115.047,"end":18137.296,"text":"還有其他休閒跟商品票券那這些原本是現行條文沒有的那早上主管機關內政部這邊也花了蠻多篇幅在解釋這個問題就是說在政策面政策面要不要在社會法加上這些東西我想這個是一個最大的一個分野點這個是建議"},{"start":18139.81,"end":18169.12,"text":"大約能夠先釐清因為放進去跟不放進去就會影響到後續的這個立法作業那第二個就是說剛剛委員有提到了就是說我們現行的社委法它的立法結構第二款的立法結構是這樣它的前提是非公自用然後購買什麼樣的票券去轉售盈利"},{"start":18171.247,"end":18187.502,"text":"這樣的一個體力其實要處理的都是票券黃流問題近年來的立法趨勢大概文創條例跟運動產業發展條例都是112年最新立法的也是要解決這一類的票券問題"},{"start":18188.743,"end":18203.255,"text":"那我歸納的結果就是說這兩部法一個文創條例10條之一跟運產條例24條之一他用的立法結構不是這樣他用的立法結構很簡單他不去管他前段"},{"start":18204.056,"end":18230.022,"text":"自用或非自用 將某一類的票券高於票名的金額或定價去販售者他的動詞行為形態就是抓販售還有加價 大概就這兩個類型那前半段的非公自用等等這些他就不放了 因為這些可能在試用上會有像剛剛委員還有黃委員可能有參與到文創條例的制定過程"},{"start":18230.322,"end":18246.613,"text":"所以我想文章條例跟運產條例的這個行為結構我想算是在處理這種票券黃牛上算是一個比較先進的立法例這個我是建議如果要真的要放進去要修的話這個可以來參考"},{"start":18247.433,"end":18271.019,"text":"另外剛剛那個王委員提到的就是計未稅這個問題這確實是一個問題目前行政處罰行政法法上它並沒有特別去區分計稅跟未稅在刑事處罰上很明確未稅犯他一定要法律明定才可以處罰但到行政法法上它並沒有去區分計稅跟未稅"},{"start":18272.899,"end":18288.051,"text":"另外參考文創條例跟院產條例他們立法上也沒有特別區別早上文化部他們也有在對藝文票券在做解釋就是說"},{"start":18289.072,"end":18302.784,"text":"在他們的處罰行政機關的職權解釋上所謂的販售他並不以整個完成為必要就是說你左手進行販售的行為他們本來就文創條例認為都是在他們處罰範圍之內所以所謂的未遂"},{"start":18308.209,"end":18325.145,"text":"這一個內涵是不是就一定要特別再發文字去做修正我想這個可以參考文創條例跟運採條例的制定還有實施的一個狀況來參考以上報告那我們先請蘇小慧委員然後黃婕委員高經緯還要補充嗎然後高經緯好不好謝謝"},{"start":18332.372,"end":18361.193,"text":"好 謝謝法務部的解釋我想首先在座各位委員大家每一個人都希望能夠處理社會在重視的這些黃牛票券的問題因為我們現在已經是第11屆了前面有文創法的這部分還有運產的部分大家也都可以看到一個剛剛法務部也說明了一個新型態的在專法上面的立法方式其實是還不錯大家應該可以參考的"},{"start":18361.693,"end":18385.456,"text":"好那我們就回來今天這個64條剛剛主席這邊也幫大家整理了三個爭點第一個是範圍第二個是這個罰金的罰款這個罰款的金額再來第三個是是不是要處理意圖的部分三個爭點那我想從第一個這個範圍的部分來講大家剛剛竟然可以看到說如果有專法在處理的時候其實是更明確的"},{"start":18386.337,"end":18406.274,"text":"那麼今天我們用高金委員的修正動議來看其實增加的是醫療票券、參旅時速票券以及各式休閒及商品票券增加了這三款那我想請問等一下這個看是內政部甚至是防護部可以解釋一下在現行條文當中的遊樂票券指的是什麼"},{"start":18408.021,"end":18432.031,"text":"遊樂票券是否就可以包含了旅宿時數 參旅時數各式休閒商品因為你的遊樂票券是應該不可能當初只有訂去遊樂園這種東西才叫做遊樂票券吧這不可能當時是這樣解釋的所以是否這個詞彙的概念已經可以包含了修正動議中間的後兩項"},{"start":18433.852,"end":18455.638,"text":"那麼這樣子是否這個部分就可以不用再大家可以考慮不用再修正那就只剩下醫療票券那我必須在這裡提出提醒大家一下我參考啦我跟大家分享我覺得醫療票券其實反而是一個造成社會不太懂得一個新的概念那我自己其實呢曾經在這個醫療法這邊試著想要增訂過22條之一"},{"start":18458.459,"end":18473.514,"text":"就是呢在處理這個不管是掛號也好或者是任何的這個醫療資源搶佔的部分我認為是政府應保障民眾使用醫療資源的平等權益任何人不得加價販售醫療服務之權利違法販售者按販售金額處100倍至500倍的罰款"},{"start":18479.58,"end":18507.374,"text":"我覺得這種所有醫療行為相關的我們廣稱為所謂的醫療黃牛的這個狀況應該是在醫療法這邊也如同文創法一樣用專法來處理也才能夠把所有我們所痛恨的這種所謂醫療黃牛的部分可以專業來處理所以這是我建議的狀況我們是不是重新定義重新請法務部內任務解釋清楚遊樂票券是否可以涵蓋現在大家"},{"start":18508.194,"end":18524.381,"text":"在意的部分那我建議醫療的部分其實不要再吝嗇名詞而是回到醫療法處理這是我對範圍的部分那第二個部分的話我認為金額的部分訪問金額呢其實真的大家應該要考慮一下整部法的一致性和橫平性啦"},{"start":18524.841,"end":18533.145,"text":"所以最後的數額到底要列在哪裡這個我尊重大家的意見最後這個意圖我還是一樣這個我覺得這個是行政法我們還是尊重一下各法的體系體力的狀態那如果大家不喜歡的這個這個這個意圖就只要有行動了我們就應該抓這個是不是應該再回到專法裡面當時的這個新型態的立法來處理會比較好簡而言之我認為"},{"start":18553.954,"end":18566.516,"text":"可以修正 可以討論 但可能沒有必要到高金委員的這個版本 不好意思這是我的意見啦 那請大家參考好 我們剛剛是黃婕蕙對不對 請"},{"start":18570.475,"end":18592.718,"text":"好謝謝那我也是繼續把它收攏啦就是其實這一條裡面最大的兩個問兩類型的問題一個是罰則就是到底這個罰金要多少那另外一個是構成要件的問題那構成要件我先講喔我認為社違法過去一直罰不到的原因是因為它裡面非公自用"},{"start":18594.119,"end":18620.674,"text":"購買跟轉售營利這三個構成要件過去就是一直沒有辦法明確定義因為舉證很困難我舉一個例子之前新北地院在106年的時候有個判例就是有個民眾一次買了兩張五月天的門票然後他轉售然後警方認為他是黃牛票最後呢法院說你不能因為他持兩張票就認為他購買時非公自用因為非公自用的舉證真的太困難了所以最後就不罰"},{"start":18621.534,"end":18648.093,"text":"所以當時我們一直沒有辦法用社委法處理黃牛就是這樣的原因所以最後我們採用文創法裡面像文創法的構成要件非常明確購買然後超過票面價格就是這兩個要件而已非常非常明確你只要不是購買販售販售你用加價然後販售那你就是黃牛所以我剛剛早上一開始就直接問我們警政署長黃牛的定義是什麼就是加價販售就是這樣"},{"start":18650.054,"end":18656.416,"text":"那所以裡面如果我們繼續用這樣的文字想要去試圖要處理黃牛的話我認為第一個罰不到第二個會誤罰誤罰什麼就是像剛剛博弈委員有舉一些例子因為現在市場上那種票券的類型給你買套票然後給你那種一次買很多張再轉售的這種市場的行為有非常多樣態那如果我們現在這樣定下去很可能會到時候檢舉不完"},{"start":18677.441,"end":18704.163,"text":"就大家會說你一次買十張打折的套票在賣別人的你是不是黃牛然後你可能用跟別人套裝形成的然後你中間多買一些那種餐點什麼給你加價的那你是不是黃牛所以這種很不明確的構成要件最後很可能造成的結果就是你市場上非常多類型的遊樂型的然後餐飲型的這種票券都可能到處被亂檢舉就說這個全部都是黃牛"},{"start":18705.188,"end":18727.195,"text":"那這樣是不是市場上可能會反而造成很多誤會那這是我比較擔心的部分那至於罰則我還是再次強調我認為要就是回歸到專法裡面給他罰重一點用明確的定義然後給他罰重一點如果是你是醫療黃牛你是演唱會黃牛就是明確你加價然後又販售那就給他罰重一點啊在這邊給他罰個三萬塊對那種真的黃牛來說不痛不癢完全不痛不癢黃牛根本就他們到現在還是這麼猖狂"},{"start":18734.898,"end":18752.717,"text":"就是因為他們賺暴利你買一張blackpink他給你五十萬十萬三十萬他都給你買因為他就是中間賺暴利嘛他根本就不怕罰所以我們覺得要就是要好好針對這種問題來處理以上希望可以再收容一點謝謝好謝謝黃菊委員我們請高菊委員"},{"start":18758.683,"end":18780.624,"text":"我覺得我們今天談的就是說沒有專法裡面我們怎麼樣先汪洋補牢先讓這些人可以意圖不要犯罪然後第二個就是說我覺得罰金的部分當然就必須在社會法裡面它多少我們就定多少嘛是三萬塊嘛所以在修正動議裡面我已經寫得很清楚是三萬塊嘛"},{"start":18781.585,"end":18805.962,"text":"那再來就是說遊樂票券這也是我剛剛想要問的就是遊樂票券有沒有包括參與食宿休閒商品這要請因為這是現行條文是不是請你們來解釋一下那如果它有包括的話當然就後面就不要寫如果沒有包括的話我當然覺得還是要寫啊接著下來你們大家認為就是說意圖轉售這塊部分其實意圖轉售其實呢"},{"start":18807.203,"end":18825.94,"text":"應該有很多是可以去看的譬如說現在電腦程式各方面你如果去購買了意圖這些程式就表示你就是想要大量的購買這些票券所以在意圖轉售這個部分還有盈利者還有轉售圖利者其實都講得很清楚"},{"start":18827.021,"end":18853.024,"text":"縱使我們在這邊只有罰三萬塊可是也是先亡羊補牢嘛在目前專法還沒有定之前我們先讓這些意圖要有要有這樣子想要販賣這樣圖利的人他能夠因為涉違法而禁止他他不再不想去犯案嘛所以我覺得這以上的部分我再說明一下是不是也請內政部來說明一下獻群條文的這個"},{"start":18854.886,"end":18865.096,"text":"購買運輸票券跟遊樂票券是包括什麼好嗎謝謝好謝謝我們現在請行政機關來做說明這個票券的定義我們請張署長好不好"},{"start":18869.585,"end":18885.795,"text":"好各位那對於這個適用這個範圍裡面那目前我們警官取締黃牛票大概目前我們食物機關有在做的取締黃牛票第一個所謂遊樂票件大部分就是細票的黃牛"},{"start":18886.696,"end":18900.288,"text":"就是電影票的黃鳥我現在講實務上如果包含有過程這個就是電影票的黃鳥第二部分就是這個文化產業的這一些的這個藝文的這一些的黃鳥這個是文創法裡面有的過了這個黃鳥"},{"start":18902.21,"end":18931.63,"text":"之前過去有是適用社會法現在適用文創法第三種就是運動賽事的這個就是類似職棒的這些的這個取締辦法那我去年在台北市服務的時候這個運動賽事沒有沒有還沒還沒還沒通過之前我們就適用設置法通過之後就馬上用那個運動賽事這個這個來做一個取締那至於這個範圍裡面我想就是這一個遊樂票券"},{"start":18933.031,"end":18943.884,"text":"參與實施這個票卷跟各式休閒商品這我想應該有主管機關來做解釋了這個部分到底是屬於是不是有要票卷這個應該要這個屬於經驗這裡面是沒有去做這樣的"},{"start":18951.311,"end":18965.755,"text":"這個經驗在這裡做說明那第二部分就是委員的修正動議裡面就是其中裡面就是以虛偽資料其不正當的方式以文創跟運動賽事的立法精神這個是屬於刑事法"},{"start":18967.321,"end":18984.174,"text":"刑事法那委員這個地方是想把它提高最高的罰則那這個應該是不是法律上有這些這個可能司法院可能來做可能來做一個是不是來做這個這個如果說以立法的精神這個修正綜藝這一點這個是用刑法來做處罰"},{"start":18985.373,"end":19000.159,"text":"有不占的利益啦或者是用虛偽的資料這是過程刑事法的要依送法判的不是用罰錢就可以處理了那這個部分也給提供委員做一個參考這以上好 謝謝還有哪些單位要補充有了票卷照理來講是主管機關就我了解是這樣"},{"start":19019.776,"end":19038.881,"text":"請我們查當初社委法64條第二款的立法理由它的遊樂票券很單純就是指遊樂場所當初立法有的文字就遊樂場所不是應該不是不是他文字很單純因為他是從違警罰法向下來的所以他文字在民國80年的時候他就是"},{"start":19040.405,"end":19060.869,"text":"對 他已經三十多年了 所以當時的立法背景時空背景他當時指的很單純就是遊樂場所就是遊樂園那種場所以上報告 謝謝所以顯然遊樂票券不能包含餐旅這些東西對不對"},{"start":19068.646,"end":19081.489,"text":"他現在是講各式休閒及商品票券密室逃脫應該算遊樂場所啦他應該算遊樂場所啦遊樂園我覺得我們一段一段來啦"},{"start":19101.336,"end":19126.281,"text":"運輸票就應該沒有問題嘛對不對因為當然現在只有鐵路法有規定火車嘛但是其他的應該也要規範嘛而且是原來的文字嘛李博弈真的考慮一下齁餐飲食宿入社違法真的感覺壓力很大欸如果是車票我覺得大家支持啦演唱會或者是這個演藝等等的我覺得大家目標方向大家很一致啊但是"},{"start":19128.397,"end":19152.115,"text":"對啊 餐飲食宿券的感覺應該可以再討論一下沒有啦 他這個票券的狀況可能就是譬如我去大量採購比如對折的譬如說什麼三天兩夜的包套的這種行程什麼原價價值一萬六嘛好 但我買的管道是八千你就買很多然後你在外面賣一萬那其實他就是黃牛啊他就是黃牛啊"},{"start":19163.905,"end":19181.317,"text":"對啊 沒有 我們現在就是討論嘛主席我幫你留一個文字你這樣團購有點違法你這樣 對啦 這樣不行耶對 這樣參與時數 這團購沒有啦 是票券的部分嘛沒有啦 我現在也還是有旅遊券啊 時數券啊"},{"start":19186.878,"end":19191.885,"text":"還有林家砂鍋魚頭最主要林宗明"},{"start":19205.026,"end":19212.973,"text":"但是他的公司是這麼貴但是就是太貴了你看他一包花了幾塊啊但是到消費者你要買的話花了三百幾塊耶這樣就加一倍了耶這樣是不是但是對啊這個違反"},{"start":19228.927,"end":19234.815,"text":"要不然有的公道回來,我們跟法院一樣,我們不時去擺賣賣到所以我們去擺啊這也是覺得很奇怪的事情"},{"start":19240.918,"end":19267.545,"text":"這個我覺得大家講的這個我們要再思考一下如何去文字定義比較精確因為現在新的太多了啦我跟你講現在連代牌代購都有連代牌都有如果這樣子它有沒有違反社會法我覺得這個大家要去思考一下另外像剛剛喬惠媛所說的你團購"},{"start":19268.945,"end":19291.95,"text":"那你如果旅展你去買了很多那你朋友跟你講他有打九折啦他原價賣給他如果照我們這樣定義的話他就出問題囉我覺得回到黃牛票本來的精神的規範上的精神的概念是因為避免大家去賺中間的利差然後導致本來該買該用便宜價格買到的人買不到嘛"},{"start":19293.001,"end":19316.91,"text":"所以我覺得精神上不管形態是什麼就是人家旅展也好或者是藝文表演或者是體育我覺得大家精神都一樣的就是為了怕有人想去賺那個利差然後去大量掃貨嘛然後讓本來尋正常管道可以取得這些票卷的人取得不到我覺得這是我們大家應該比較有共識的黃牛的行為但沒關係我覺得今天對法療文字都不需要我們都還有討論的時間啦但就請大家多發表意見好不好我再補充一下"},{"start":19318.506,"end":19345.344,"text":"黃牛什麼這些我們當然是要去處理它我們不允許它但它一個概念應該就是有的東西是有限量的你黃牛它一定是有限量的你的演唱會我的票就是多少你應該是我們是不是從有限量的方向去思考如果你一般餐飲或什麼的我跟你講它沒有限量啊它不會有限量的問題啊"},{"start":19348.234,"end":19370.206,"text":"他也沒有限量的問題啊黃牛能夠賺的大概都黃牛能夠賺錢的是應該都是有限量的這個所以才會說轉售圖利嘛我覺得關鍵應該是票券這兩個字啦因為代牌有沒有包含"},{"start":19370.846,"end":19385.556,"text":"轉售圖利他只要轉售圖利就是很多委員那時候有提就是避免那個醫療黃牛那個其實他就是代掛號嘛其實今天大家在質詢的時候提出來是代掛號的概念嘛那他可能不見得是用票券兩個字可以來處理但那個適合的文字是什麼大家可以商量一下啦"},{"start":19391.866,"end":19403.712,"text":"對啦,像那個趙薇說的趙薇說的醫療票券的問題,我覺得最主要也有時效,它就是它才掛好嘛,譬如說今天的韓債,它現場20萬嘛,所以它才掛"},{"start":19407.864,"end":19416.339,"text":"但是這種人有時候他行動不便或是他身體不舒服一定要拜託別人去過這要怎麼認定"},{"start":19419.226,"end":19438.061,"text":"對 所以我覺得代牌代購這件事情恐怕就是它又是另外一種又用另外一種法條文字來處理如果你要把它納入規範的話的行為好 沒關係今天因為我們只是大體上收束一下方向我覺得我們各自稍微思考我也請行政機關思考一下啦就是說以新興的幾個樣態來講"},{"start":19439.662,"end":19468.685,"text":"因為今天各個單位幾乎都有嘛交通部 衛福部等等都有嘛如果要講說大家討論的那種黃泉行為就是掃貨然後賺利差的這樣一個行為用什麼樣的文字 有什麼樣的行為請各個行政大會回去做一下功課我們之後會另外再找時間再來審查還有沒有委員要補充 針對這一條好 我先啦我覺得各單位也要想一下我們這邊都是票券票券票券啦那我舉個例子我如果去買一雙限量的球鞋"},{"start":19471.31,"end":19494.351,"text":"我如果用提貨券我去轉賣可能就處罰了但我如果這雙球鞋我是賣直接拿實體的給你我們這裡就規範不到喔所以我的意思說你各單位可能要去想一下想清楚喔這個我們今天請你們想你們要把很多樣態想清楚喔好 喬維"},{"start":19495.865,"end":19502.008,"text":"好那我再回來我個人的意見就是屬於醫療的部分我認為這個大家都很想解決問題我還是肯定各位大家各位委員同仁大家的用心但我覺得醫療這個部分可能我比較不建議用醫療票券然後放在社委法裡面"},{"start":19516.215,"end":19519.599,"text":"那因為我上一屆確實有提出醫療法徵第22條之一就是保障民眾使用醫療資源的平等任何人不得加價販售醫療服務之權利剛剛已經念過了這樣的狀況所以既然大家都是這個方向本人會再來提出到時候懇請大家也順便支持一下我也會去請韓委員會的"},{"start":19535.996,"end":19560.122,"text":"支持一下 我覺得其實用這樣的專法然後呢是直接把所有醫療資源都放在裡面然後任何人不得加價販售醫療服務的權利因為這等於是侵害民眾的權利我想任何法律的定律都是為了要保障民眾的權利大概是我比較建議用這樣的方向 謝謝好還有人要補充嗎我們這條先保留好不好大家回去稍微再想一下"},{"start":19562.089,"end":19584.681,"text":"我還是要講就是說我們在現行法裡面的遊樂票券它也是這個意圖轉售圖利者當時你們是怎麼內政部是怎麼訂這個法的所以呢我們就會依照你們的這個構想現行的這個法條裡面然後同樣的邏輯來把其他東西放進去啊"},{"start":19585.6,"end":19607.528,"text":"所以內政部其實我們今天剛剛我都同意剛剛委員所討論的這個部分那我也覺得說回去應該可以好好思考一下但是我必須要講的部分就是第一項第二款這個部分我們是以現行法的這個所謂的範型意圖來轉受這個圖利者的這個概念然後把其他的這個要被規範的東西放進去那"},{"start":19611.989,"end":19638.302,"text":"大家覺得說這個部分如果線型條文這個遊樂票券的這個部分是有問題的話那麼那當然我提了那麼多的面向當然也是會有問題沒錯但如果說是線型條文沒有問題那當然就是沒有問題啊那只是大家把線型的太陽講出來而已嘛好不好再來就是那個第四項的我看一下"},{"start":19639.949,"end":19665.221,"text":"而對於不正方法或指令輸入電腦或其相關設備購買票券取得訂票或取票憑證之行為為國際間常見的禁止行為這個部分是蕭保處的意見所以我也把它放在我的修正動議裡面是不是也請蕭保處你來說明一下因為剛剛警政署說這是屬於刑法的部分你們當時你的書面報告是說"},{"start":19669.963,"end":19680.891,"text":"希望有這個部分也能夠立法消保處在不在來消保處有請說明一下謝謝你是不是來說明一下當時你因為我覺得你講的這個份這是有道理的"},{"start":19682.098,"end":19708.857,"text":"對 其實在這個消保處接到了一些消費爭議中的確是關於這種所謂電腦方式的這種黃牛的確是存在的所以在原先在文創法或是說在運動發展條例中會建議把這個加進去但是因為我們後來考量就是說其實不管是文創或者是運動條例它基本上是一個特別法的性質"},{"start":19709.377,"end":19729.72,"text":"所以剛才警政署的長官指教的這個道理是對的因為它是個特別法所以它可以把刑事跟行政的關於相關的一些規定放進去不過因為現在社委法本身它是一個行政法法的一個轉向所以要把一個刑事的條文加進去的確是有點在法制上必須要做一些考量的"},{"start":19730.24,"end":19753.587,"text":"這的確是剛剛我們聽吉森主委長官講那倒是對的因為我們的社會法也只能把那種行政上的一個處罰放進去不過刑事呢在文創法跟在那個運財條例中是有刑罰的處罰在的幾年幾年的徒刑或科處罰金所以這個部分來講的話可能看怎麼樣在法制上要去做一個調整那以上"},{"start":19754.737,"end":19769.552,"text":"我補充再問一個問題我們消保處這邊應該也會接受到各式各樣的投訴嘛針對黃流票的樣態除了現在因為藝文體育已經有明確的法律規範其他樣態是些什麼樣態我覺得這是一個蠻重要的判斷基準我們要把哪些東西放進去"},{"start":19770.273,"end":19797.001,"text":"那就是以消保處這邊受理的各式各樣的消費糾紛嘛最明顯的樣態是哪一種你們這邊有沒有一些資料可以提供給大家做參考我們可以提供資料但是如果說真的是最大的樣態的話就是票卷就是藝文票卷跟運動賽事票卷對一定的嘛因為最重要已經先處理完了嘛我們覺得現在社會法等於是補破網嘛就是剩下的部分嘛所以是不是請消保處也回去調一下資料除了體育跟藝文這兩大類已經有專法規定了之外"},{"start":19797.501,"end":19816.725,"text":"哪些形態的消費糾紛是來自於這種轉售圖利等等的行為去做讓我們做下一次討論的時候做明確的參考可以嗎我們整理一下資料是好謝謝好那我們這條一樣先給它保留起來與此同時我們剛剛第九條已經出來了我唸一下可以弄到電腦上嗎就把伊亞人"},{"start":19818.678,"end":19843.352,"text":"三個字改成就那一條那一項我重新念啦就是精神耗弱或出生及未滿七歲及有聽覺且語言障礙者他其實就是英雅人的白話版這樣子大家OK嗎沒有他當初的英雅人的定義就是這樣因為年幼他適同就是一開始就沒有等於沒有辦法沒有辦法對對對對一開始就等於一開始沒有嘛"},{"start":19848.375,"end":19849.055,"text":"內政部的這個草案我想也大致符合"},{"start":19867,"end":19895.957,"text":"司法院的解釋跟社會法的這個立法理由不過就是說西部的文字上是不是可以這樣出生及年滿七歲未滿七歲是不是可以更精簡就是年滿七歲前就可以了年滿七歲年滿七歲前就是說剛好包括出生在內嘛那另外即有聽覺且語言障礙者現在就是說"},{"start":19898.325,"end":19918.39,"text":"委員原始的提案大家卡住的地方就是說用障礙用語言障礙因為障礙有程度輕重之分所以今天才沒辦法馬上去做處理我想就是卡在這個地方那這一個部分就是說極有聽覺且語言障礙者"},{"start":19919.967,"end":19938.637,"text":"本來是說有沒有可能是用譬如說我只是假設譬如說上司天覺及語言能力者就表示說他這兩個能力都不具備了就是符合司法院那個解釋的意旨不過這用上司還有這個能力是不是符合"},{"start":19939.887,"end":19958.872,"text":"衛福部這邊專業教授衛福部又有觀感不佳的問題我想這一個就是更細膩的是不是請衛福部再指導一下但是大概就是在這個前提發表就是這兩種能力都不具備但是你要用什麼樣的語言或名詞去描述它比較不會有你再念一下你剛剛那個版本衛滿七歲前集喪屍集喪屍聽覺"},{"start":19968.347,"end":19982.864,"text":"及語言能力者那剛剛那個衛福那邊應該有更細膩的那個語言或描述方式不是衛滿吧他講是年滿年滿年滿七歲前嘛是不是"},{"start":19985.166,"end":20001.019,"text":"對,年滿7歲前年滿7歲前來,衛福部,如果按照法務部剛剛的建議這樣子現在治療技術非常的好,我們聽覺有障礙的幾乎很少了所以要處理一下,他可能已經有匯付員了"},{"start":20006.613,"end":20033.24,"text":"我們覺得如果可以用就是重度以上的話會比喪屍能力來得好一點因為身障者們對於那個能力兩個字來講他們會蠻敏感的在像喪屍能力好像有一種沒有那麼中性的感覺那因為重度的話像是目前的就是評鑑的制度就是有分成輕重重極重所以用重度也許會比較好一些那個"},{"start":20036.397,"end":20050.586,"text":"所以你也要有一個你說重度我們現在就把那個稍微收束一下那你精神耗弱也要跟著改啊精神耗弱這幾個字也是一樣的"},{"start":20058.354,"end":20084.917,"text":"主席 是不是我們現在探討一下 跟這條也保留一下保留可以 他們怎麼想都沒理你來來 最後要這樣子好不好那個請衛福部跟法務部跟內政部會上一下啦對不對 應該我覺得如果要改也很好因為我覺得大家的目標就是消除歧視性的這樣子的言論嘛這樣的"},{"start":20087.281,"end":20098.086,"text":"好 那就是內政部 主管就是內政部嘛還有我們法務部提供法律意見衛福部提供非歧視性 中性用語的標準好不好 你們三個會上一下那我們這一條就先保留謝謝大家 醫療法謝謝大家 簽一下"},{"start":20112.627,"end":20118.232,"text":"來 72條是跟是跟趙英基本上只有罰款提升啦大家有沒有想法現在是...來 王路人我覺得立法的目的跟這個我都不反對啦但用這個法令警察就沒有辦法執行啦"},{"start":20142.823,"end":20167.975,"text":"這點是我們要考慮的啊我們去訂一個沒有辦法執行的法律這樣子很奇怪但 噪音的這個部分其實它有專法了啊不過它就是因為有一個它已經有專法了啊這個我們稍早討論的時候都有講到就是它有一個噪音管制法有講有一部分交給社委法處理啦發表一下意見你們做得到嗎"},{"start":20172.455,"end":20184.578,"text":"要放寬裁量的空間吧結果看起來是這樣其實警察去處理這個應該很難去認定就是認定了這個標準現在障碍管制法是有一期"},{"start":20185.933,"end":20189.336,"text":"這個法提升到提高這個做裁法我是沒什麼多大的意見因為也都沒有多大"},{"start":20203.086,"end":20230.747,"text":"多大的這個變化重要就是說你要罰到底能罰得到因為我們試用的這個應該是不多因為我這幾十年在實務的這個單位這個確實罰人也多但是一直沒辦法去處罰到他最主要就是沒有這一些的儀器或這樣去做這樣的一個認定去做認定那我想就是未來如果說我個人的看法在障碍管制法裡面來做詳細的規範"},{"start":20232.759,"end":20234.2,"text":"在專法裡面詳細的規範好 我們外媒委員 李柏宇委員主席 我們感謝蘇定位的介紹說實在因為很多沒有人跟說實在的考慮很多"},{"start":20246.721,"end":20252.003,"text":"尤其有很多鄉親說老天爺我們多了現在靠電話 靠你們的電話你們如果他想說好 講話小聲講 我也沒辦法 你們也沒辦法策定出來你們的分配多少"},{"start":20263.686,"end":20272.034,"text":"現在還要叫環保局來啦 當然環保局來 他們沒環境也沒大事啦 是要去發什麼啦所以這種的問題很多 跟造成我們警察人員 跟騎一台摩托車去 叫又去 叫又去啦 都為社會主義完 以上好 李卓人"},{"start":20289.932,"end":20303.903,"text":"老師我的意見跟完美會委員很很接近也難得跟劉許林召委有一點接近你今天講第二次所以我再講一次那既然是這樣其實噪音有很多種型態這種"},{"start":20305.464,"end":20332.524,"text":"那其實很多這種噪音它其實在規範的是比如說是這個冷氣的噪音或者是什麼水塔的聲音這個當然就適用說我們用環保單位的人員來用這個相關的檢測儀器但是樓上樓下隔壁或者是我們看到第一條公眾場合酗酒滋事謾罵喧鬧"},{"start":20334.298,"end":20360.564,"text":"我們警察出門了才罰六千我是覺得可以提高可以討論啦謝謝警察出門了六千連工錢都不夠所以調高罰則好像大家還蠻有因為你還是有裁量空間嘛對不對署長這個如果調高罰則是當然是有裁判空間啦這個沒有在用法上沒有多大的變更應該是這邊沒有意見"},{"start":20362.722,"end":20391.825,"text":"對他確實不一定能夠處理因為我們大部分大家都關注的是那種鄰居吵鬧的問題啦不見得能夠因為調高罰則就解決這個問題沒有錯但是我覺得剛剛難得跟李博議員有共識嘛對不對這個公共倉所需求之事這個罰重一點我覺得也是好事啊那請問請問大家對針對數字一萬八從嚴處分沒有民眾黨黨談提案一萬八啦邱若驊委員提案是一萬現行的是六千大家對於罰完金額有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":20406.155,"end":20422.947,"text":"好 高清委員說一萬八對啊 因為這個沒問題一萬八的一萬嘛 或者是不修嘛警政署長剛剛有講說那個 因為他有裁量的空間嘛"},{"start":20423.854,"end":20448.702,"text":"有沒有行政機關要做意見補充的沒關係我們多討論沒有關係我們多討論啦我覺得要調高這個滑板這個大家有共識也覺得有但是是不是一萬八我覺得你從六千六千到一萬八是三倍但"},{"start":20450.044,"end":20474.37,"text":"這一個我跟你講因為你的噪音大聲小聲的不是不是罰不罰得到又是一件事情我跟你講夫妻如果吵架的你也要罰一萬八不是不是不能這樣講我覺得不可能啊到時候誰要出一萬八對"},{"start":20480.831,"end":20496.599,"text":"嘿 我覺得我們要思考一下這個社會的現實點啦齁啊是不是一下就調到一萬八欸 夫妻吵架算喔算喔這個是無證當理喔 上罰其他人對喔 算喔無證當理喔對啊 啊這算喔欸 我們立法院有分貝機欸超過一定分貝的可以拔嗎欸 我們立法院有分貝機"},{"start":20509.895,"end":20521.044,"text":"要妨害公眾安寧者好啦 其他行政機關有沒有補充的對 不見得罰那麼高啦"},{"start":20532.957,"end":20543.769,"text":"可以九千啊 可以六千啊 五千啊沒有標準啊那這個 他的立法金額原先是六千嘛那給他提到三千他地板 他地板"},{"start":20557.162,"end":20572.978,"text":"來我們署長有要補充嗎好那這裡面的第二款就是無正當理由這個散催警笛或散發其他警告者因為這三項的一個每個的這個形態都不同那這個罰則是18000這樣統一這樣罰則這樣恰不恰當那看委員做考量說的也是第二項比較嚴重啊"},{"start":20582.598,"end":20603.917,"text":"對,所以如果吳政當理由吹緊也是六千那就更不對了嘛我會這樣想嘛所以我的意思是說應該是要把稍微拉高一點那當然你按情節輕重嘛如果這個比如說小朋友哭啊或什麼那個沒有辦法那個勸導或者是輕輕放下也是常有的事嘛對啊但是如果你的總額不高的話會不會有問題"},{"start":20607.933,"end":20627.467,"text":"權力變大了嘛 裁量的權力就會變大啦效果是這樣我們其他行政機關都沒有想法環境部你們針對噪音 因為也是要考量一下那個平衡性嘛 對不對說明一下"},{"start":20635.811,"end":20658.588,"text":"跟各位有人報告 那我們環境部的詐欺管制法裡面我們違反像以第八條行為管制部分我們在詐管法23條是用三千到三萬那我們有裁罰基準的部分我們就依照就是第一次違反的時候就罰三千那令其立即改善 那不改善的部分就逐步往上就是加倍加倍我們是用這樣一個方式來做一個裁除"},{"start":20665.813,"end":20669.335,"text":"我覺得這一條我們如果要的話"},{"start":20671.032,"end":20700.128,"text":"比如說這裡面第一款吧與公共場所公眾得出入什麼酗酒之事漫罵喧鬧不聽制止者我覺得這一個部分如果罰高一點我相信社會不會有大家的這個是OK的那其他的呢這個大家有其他的想法所以就不應該在一開始"},{"start":20701.141,"end":20717.372,"text":"就規定一萬八應該每個樣態是不同的金額對啊不然你要修法要完備我覺得就是只能這樣對就裁量權嘛你要不要授權警察的裁量權對我覺得高經緯講的是對的可以喔這是裁量權"},{"start":20730.53,"end":20759.165,"text":"欸署長我請教一下因為剛剛那個環境部的說法其實也是可以參考嘛就是說他們針對噪音管制法的實際執行會有一個裁罰基準嘛就是哪些樣帶罰多少哪些樣帶罰多少一輕重調整嘛那你們實務上警察現在在執法的時候應該應該什麼叫交通違規什麼應該也有一些類似的裁罰基準對不對有有有應該像這個現在目前施行了這個六千塊以下我們的裁判基準的現在就有好很重要現在就是六千塊以下嘛現在六千塊以下嘛那我們裁判基準是從三百到六千啦三"},{"start":20759.965,"end":20772.616,"text":"300到6000就往上一直加這樣子就往上一直加這個當然也要看那個這個所以你們那個會罰6000的樣態有哪些6000的應該是最重的應該是隔壁補充沒關係請"},{"start":20778.474,"end":20790.447,"text":"我想做一做是散催警笛警號還是沒有先沒有罰過沒有罰到這麼重沒有罰過沒有罰過6000我們照英這一款72條第3款這部分沒有沒有罰到6000過"},{"start":20792.577,"end":20818.077,"text":"你們是這條到底有沒有在用啊?有在用,有在用,但是他沒有罰到六千我的意思是說,那種鄰居之間的糾紛確實很難處理,這個我們都知道但是酗酒之事,謾罵喧鬧都沒有處理過?還是用別的直接處理了?那個是有,那我看你的資料裡面一年大概是幾百件,五六百件對啊,那那個是罰多少?那這個我看回去資料要查才知道那查才知道說到底是處罰多少錢"},{"start":20819.238,"end":20841.853,"text":"這個細節的部分我沒有了解那麼仔細我覺得大概可以有一個方向今天早上本席提質詢的時候其實有要求你嘛就是把這條實際上使用的狀況有有我那個資料已經有出來了大概五六百件左右那你也提供給內政委員做一下參考我們可以回去消化一下那我是建議警政署也思考一下就是說我們如果給你更大的裁量權讓你把這些比較嚴重的樣態可以放進去處理"},{"start":20848.286,"end":20867.422,"text":"對就是說你裁判比較裁判高一點我覺得這個這個罰則提高我覺得是沒有意見因為也是沒有對整個目前事情沒有執行的這個過程沒改變只是說未來是罰的更重這個民眾如果說被我們罰的他以後就是不敢再犯了這個最主要的原則了"},{"start":20868.183,"end":20893.089,"text":"那聽起來是蠻贊成增加的嘛增加我是贊成的啊增加是贊成嘛好那你們回去檢討一下你們的裁量基準啦就是說如果有增加的話下一次我們討論的時候你提個建議嘛可以沒有問題增加到多少我覺得大家這樣子就比較有接近共識的版本好不好好這條也保留最後跟騷這個一樣是增加罰則啦"},{"start":20900.418,"end":20907.864,"text":"好 這個有幾個因為我有跟研發委員做一下溝通我有跟他講我說社會法19條有規定嘛所以最多也只能罰到三萬嘛那是不是"},{"start":20908.991,"end":20926.74,"text":"魯明哲委員的版本是說30以下拘留或新台幣3萬以下罰款嘛那早上那個蘇喬威委員質詢的時候其實有把數字講出來嘛就是說即便現在有跟騷法但是好像還是會有漏網之魚所以這個有補破網的功能不應該隨便刪除嘛所以我們就討論罰則輕重的部分請各位委員發表意見 謝謝"},{"start":20931.465,"end":20956.241,"text":"對 一樣是輕重啦 跟剛剛那條概念是一樣的大家先聽一聽 廣泛討論一下首先那個儲十萬元的就已經超過了那個是不可能的嘛 這個已經講好了 講過了現在是 現在那個散播謠言是不是要拘留三年 最嚴重的話是嗎"},{"start":20959.147,"end":20973.461,"text":"假消息關三天是不是是嗎那個也是社會法不是嗎63條我是覺得有必要稍微提升但一樣程度可以商量 來李博議員"},{"start":20976.207,"end":21002.062,"text":"我請教一下署長根據現在的跟騷法當然裡面已經有第三條已經有寫到以人員車輛工具設備電子通訊等等的這些但是主要是針對性或性別那現在其實交通上有很多這個問題行車行車的時候那如果說覺得不爽前面或者的車可能他就一直一路跟著你"},{"start":21003.047,"end":21028.972,"text":"讓你很害怕或者是開到你前面等等的這些齁這個也有相關的這些交通的罰則了嘛那如果沒有沒有辦法舉證到這些相關交通的罰則裡面齁那如果我們在這一個涉違法裡面有沒有這樣子去辦過的這個的這些案例有沒有或者是警方有沒有這個武器來針對這些惡意跟車的這些車輛"},{"start":21032.489,"end":21054.017,"text":"好 那這個就是說我們縣稍這個耕耕法裡面沒有規約 耕耕法就提到是跟縣有關係那其他裡面有包括幾個類型 包括這個像國宅的啦 或者是以這個行車的糾紛啦或者是這一些那個那個類似那個什麼聚眾的這一些 這一些的一個跟一個跟追的一個行為"},{"start":21054.777,"end":21068.765,"text":"那目前我們還是要看那個報案人的這個來我們去收集到了這個事證收集到事證是有過程到這個跟追的這個相關的行為我們再來做一個依照設置法來做一個處罰對 設置法好 謝謝好 針對罰則的部分大家有沒有想法"},{"start":21081.482,"end":21109.52,"text":"因為現行的條件是三千以下嘛然後申戒那我是覺得輕了點因為現在假消息或者謠言是關三天罰三萬嘛 最高嘛等於是社會法裡面可以罰的最重的狀況嘛然後跟蹤騷友只罰三千我是覺得落差蠻大的所以我是覺得要佐與提升啦那是不是要一併比照就是這種這種樣態裡面是最嚴重的一樣是三天然後加三萬塊的這樣一個罰款警政署長你的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":21112.026,"end":21134.645,"text":"那現在這裡面是不是裡面修正還有就處那個三日以下的拘留對啊現在委員提案的版本確實是有拘留那現在是拘留然後再加這個三萬以下的罰款或啦沒有是或是或修正版本是或那個這個其實這個立法協議跟商條一樣如果是加重了這個這一項處罰我是沒有意見的那我們就加大嚇阻好不好這一條"},{"start":21141.924,"end":21169.018,"text":"那我們照魯明哲委員版本通過可以嗎那拘留的部分是不是大家討論一下又要討論一下拘留的這個部分啦因為原先原先原先的立法只有行政法而已嘛那現在有加人身自由這個拘留的部分是不是大家討論一下是可以的啦這是哪一條裡面有講19條裡面有講拘留是OK的啦就是在社會法的範圍裡面63條也是嘛就是我們剛剛講說散佈謠言也是可以拘留三天嘛所以其實都OK嘛"},{"start":21170.974,"end":21198.255,"text":"來 各位委員 針對根梢只罰三千 我是覺得落差蠻大那就把它提高那我們照魯民哲委員版本通過 大家意見怎麼樣署長有什麼意見嗎沒有 我看就是說 拘留在或者是新台幣三萬以下的罰款那大家要不要討論一下這樣的一個處"},{"start":21200.458,"end":21229.876,"text":"所以你也沒有特別的訂件嘛但是你認為調高罰則是有助於調高罰則是 我是同意同意嘛那就看委員的意見啊對 但居留這個部分居留部分在這個區塊看恰不恰當你們作為實際的執行單位你們應該算比較了解實際上的樣態嘛沒有沒有 現在目前的現在目前規範是沒有嘛對 我知道 那個居留要到檢定法庭"},{"start":21231.445,"end":21254.181,"text":"好那看是不是我們那個示範因為拘留要到法院去那邊去做裁定我們檢查沒有檢查沒辦法就是如果要牽涉到要拘留不可能要到法院的那個檢定法庭送檢定法庭好 沒關係既然我們都要請警政署因為你們大體上的方向都同一增加裁罰的強度嘛但是具體來講要怎麼樣"},{"start":21254.961,"end":21283.96,"text":"也許我們還需要一點時間去消化然後去討論所以就希望警政署一樣這條比照前面的噪音管制好用你去調一下你過去的裁罰樣態跟需求你要提你的意見啦比較明確我要調高但調高到什麼程度符合你實際執法者的一個現狀嘛對不對對好不好我們一樣做這樣子的一個決議然後大家就這一條我們要保留但是我們下次討論的時候請你務必要把相關的資料跟想法準備好這樣我們下次審查才會快速嘛我請問各位委員這樣子處理有沒有問題可以可以好那"},{"start":21285.663,"end":21296.65,"text":"那這四條都講完了 大家還有沒有什麼特別要補充的意見嗎沒有沒有 好 那我們就另外找時間再繼續審查好不好好 那我宣讀一下協商結論 謝謝沒有沒有結論啦 張偉結論就是下一次要那個啊 並定期進行結論就是保留"},{"start":21320.38,"end":21326.087,"text":"還有附帶決議保留還有附帶決議保留你所議案定期繼續審查這個中央要怎麼休息"},{"start":21332.929,"end":21358.505,"text":"好 謝謝報告委員會剛剛經過這個協商的結果我們的第9條第64條第72條第89條這4條條文都保留那請行政機關按照我們剛剛討論的結論提供相關的資料我們下次審查的時候要看到明確的意見那相關的附帶決議我們也就是下次討論的時候一併來做處理那麼討論事項的所列議案我們就另定期繼續審查那本日會議到此結束現在休息"},{"start":21361.494,"end":21365.703,"text":"明天兩天一次明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?"},{"start":21375.128,"end":21387.353,"text":"我就跟師傅講說沒有答案,都用他師傅講的都不是啦,現在放在什麼方向,放在他們的那你們就控制,你們就控制,就你走到那邊去,那還有一些資料,有一些資訊還是資料可以再分析,那我來弄資料,我指導在這張圖"},{"start":21399.398,"end":21399.979,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":21418.489,"end":21432.935,"text":"剛剛那個夫妻吵架是誰說的"}]}},{"id":"160578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0c10d6f1f8cf44aa44d63fb5309bb2e637bdb191357f7ebfac29c834b6071bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:36:50 - 13:50:53","影片長度":"00:14:03","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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謝主席 麻煩請那個 威福部長委員好"},{"start":18.073,"end":36.352,"text":"部長好 我調整一下我要問的這個問題的順序因為剛剛剛好連續前面兩位委員都是在談這個離島的這個醫療那當然我來自台東我還是一樣也要關心這個剛剛莊瑞雄委員提到的這個綠島的這個問題"},{"start":39.975,"end":63.381,"text":"那當然這個綠島居民跟這個台灣居民一樣都是他們應該都要有這個享有同樣醫療照顧的權利那他們的這生命跟健康也不應該因為距離而被延誤所以目前那這個衛生所是這個整座島上唯一可以仰賴這個急救醫療的據點"},{"start":64.981,"end":84.268,"text":"那如今呢三人輪班制的醫師缺額懸缺兩年了只有靠這個台東馬街一個好心的這個醫師來支援那現在這位醫師六月即將離職所以整個這個綠島的衛生所24小時的服務可能中斷那當然我提這個"},{"start":85.528,"end":99.397,"text":"例子這個今日的綠島可能是明日的澎湖或者明日的哪一個外島都是一樣的所以我想切入正題我想今天這個醫師他這個6月份即將離職然後這個懸缺補不上這個問題"},{"start":108.744,"end":131.213,"text":"顯示了幾個就是說當然凸顯了就是說整個醫療制度在很多的這個不足那特別是我們對於這個偏鄉離島地區這個醫護人員的這個誘因是一個很大的問題那我想就這個短期面臨到的這個問題我就直接問你們"},{"start":133.554,"end":154.306,"text":"因為我覺得我實在沒有辦法容忍說你們還要等到什麼時候才可以補這個缺額我只是在這裡想要要求說部長你們能不能立即啟動緊急人力調度來應變這樣的一個狀況有沒有什麼樣的機制你們可不可以立即啟動怎麼樣的機制來彌補來遞補這樣子的一個六月份即將發生的狀況"},{"start":162.443,"end":176.231,"text":"謝謝委員 這個也是我們一直在想用各種方式第一個當然過去都是用獎勵讓他薪水高一點那是不是有可能這個又牽涉到整體"},{"start":177.432,"end":191.851,"text":"整體的那種新資的就是說所有的偏鄉離島山地離島是不是都要做處理還是說因為缺了這個就再補這個這個我們會去分析利弊第二個就是"},{"start":192.652,"end":216.958,"text":"是不是請台東的醫院我們給他多一點融合我想你現在講的都緩不濟急我現在就簡單的問六月就要缺人了我們現在是目前有跟衛生局在談立即啟動備援方案其實衛生局是負責當地醫療資源的調配但是如果他需要怎麼樣我們當然中央一定來支持不管是"},{"start":217.958,"end":233.098,"text":"要融合啦那基本上整個當地的資源衛生局其實是要負責去調配啦所以但是有人關心這個我覺得是真的是重要所以我們"},{"start":236.6,"end":255.065,"text":"其實也一直持續在跟衛生局看看哪裡可以調人力你什麼時候可以回覆本席就是你們如果目前他們正在調度那你們是不是可以更積極來協助我想我們回去請照護師、醫事師相關的我們一起來開個會"},{"start":262.869,"end":281.101,"text":"馬上來找有效的方法立即來解決這個問題對啊你們就是要想窮盡一切的方式趕快來補齊嘛因為我想部長你應該沒有辦法忍受就是任何一個離島在半夜有病患有什麼狀況卻找不到這個醫生"},{"start":284.683,"end":309.52,"text":"所以這個就是你急迫需要面臨的功課啊好 我們立即啟動所有的資源跟辦法來解決你不要立即啟動 結果到六月份還一樣沒有人我們一定全力以赴你什麼時候可以給本席回覆你立即啟動 你們現在開始演繹因為我一定要給你一些壓力啊不然大家就拖我們在和時間賽跑"},{"start":311.84,"end":338.567,"text":"因為如果是六月要離開我們當然是希望在六月前有的力氣補他這樣子對 所以我是說你們現在啟動機制你這個機制你一定要在六月前確認你啟動之後你什麼時候可以回覆我們兩個禮拜以內來完成會議的一個可能有可行性提出方案然後來進行這過程當中也會到委員那邊做報告"},{"start":339.192,"end":365.992,"text":"好 謝謝 那我希望兩個禮拜之後可以有一個圓滿的答覆那我們就再等你們兩個禮拜我想這個問題所凸顯的這個短中長期的問題或者我們應該做一些修法或一些專案的規劃我們則日再來討論那另外呢我要再請另外請那個國建署署長也一起上來那我先請教部長是"},{"start":367.274,"end":375.034,"text":"加熱菸健康風險評估審查會議需要三分之二委員的同意才能通過是不是這樣"},{"start":377.436,"end":393.767,"text":"兩年前的規定那個時候的辦法就是這樣子規定那辦法嘛 辦法要點是這樣子嘛對要點要點那好我們繼續齁那今年二月份這個國建署針對加熱菸的健康風險評估審查會議貴屬的大家眾所皆知的這位"},{"start":400.732,"end":420.313,"text":"地下甲署長我們的甲副署長在會議開始時他就自行的這個宣布他突然這樣宣布就是說通過風險評估須獲得三分之二委員同意那他表示呢此違法規定"},{"start":422.861,"end":445.98,"text":"但是在會議開始之前沒有任何委員曾經被告知這樣子的一個規範那我簡單跟大家報告一下2月15日出席14人同意8人有8票那不同意的有6票那因為主席才是就是這個"},{"start":449.332,"end":478.295,"text":"就是說他沒有達到這個法定通過的這個人數三分之二所以當然那一次就沒有通過了3月10號出席15人同意10人然後不同意有5人所以看起來有到三分之二但是他還是不通過因為他不含本數就是他就沒有超過三分之二所以一樣這個會議又不通過了"},{"start":479.256,"end":506.659,"text":"那我想要請問就是說明明你們在112年有訂了這個指定菸品的健康風險評估審查辦法沒有三分之二委員同意的規定然後副署長假副署長卻這樣子的宣布那這樣子的法規的規定依據在哪裡可不可以說明一下兩年前那個時候的制定方式可能吳署長比較清楚"},{"start":509.097,"end":514.485,"text":"請吳署長說明一下因為兩年前應該部長還跟我一樣在立法院當同事"},{"start":517.735,"end":539.982,"text":"我們有一個指定藥品健康風險設置要點那在裡面有規定要三分之二的委員出席大會才能做出這個會議然後有三分之二才能夠通過才能夠當成協議所以主責這個跟法規會一起主責推動這樣子的一個規定的是哪一位是甲副署長是吧我他是黃岩組的督導的長官"},{"start":546.425,"end":568.986,"text":"好謝謝這樣很清楚那要點或辦法能不能抵觸法律可以嗎部長一般來說好那我順便提一下吼我國的會議規範是內政部訂定頒布全國的標準第56條很清楚的規定通過"},{"start":570.407,"end":599.469,"text":"以表決之方式獲得多數之贊同者也就是說會議有採取表決之方式就一定要以多數贊同者的意見作為通過的依據這也是我們國家所有一切的民主的基礎我想在這次二月中加熱菸的健康風險評估審查14位委員我剛講了有8位通過那6位委員不同意"},{"start":600.69,"end":616.472,"text":"那就是八位同意然後六位不同意那大家也都在那會議充分的表達了意見依照我們內政部所訂定的會議規範應該要根據專家及委員的意見予以同意開放"},{"start":617.967,"end":633.008,"text":"如今啊衛福部你們縱容假副署長凌駕在署長跟部長之上公然以行政手段打臉多數的委員他們的意見然後誤導大家"},{"start":634.83,"end":657.925,"text":"來這個不遵守會議審查的規則讓這個審查委員留於可以操控的這個形式然後也讓部長您遲遲不敢決定去執行加熱菸的管理也造成今天我們的現況就是加熱菸的這些走私犯非常的猖獗換句話說2月15日那天的會議"},{"start":660.087,"end":682.083,"text":"同意8票同意8票6票反對其實他就已經是通過了所以我在這裡拿出法條很清楚的攤在這邊讓你們做依據我想前面的那些簡直就是違法亂紀自己在那邊惡搞亂搞嘛所以"},{"start":683.12,"end":701.739,"text":"而且 就是完全毫不掩飾的喔 主導一切我覺得喔 賈淑莉副署長 衛福部你們應該要立即停止賈淑莉副署長擔任國建署地下署長一職 並移送監察院"},{"start":704.278,"end":733.346,"text":"部長我剛剛提的把我們的這個56條都翻給你看了您現在清楚了嗎清楚了好兩次審查會議的表決都是多數同意所以請你才是依照內政部頒布的會議規範第56條通過以表決之方式獲得多數之贊同者以這一條去才是讓國建署立即宣布加熱菸通過可以嗎"},{"start":739.702,"end":763.968,"text":"因為我不是法律專家所以真的要請法規來給我們一點解釋有沒有在現場他們可以解釋為什麼辦法可以凌駕於這個會議我們第56條之上然後改成三分之二同意才可以還要超過"},{"start":768.44,"end":785.052,"text":"包委員我想謝謝你的提醒跟指導,我想我們馬上去請教法律的專家,看看是不是說我們要依刑"},{"start":788.806,"end":814.332,"text":"我想我今天的質詢有兩個訴求第一個就是內政部頒布的這個我們的會議規範第56條讓你們做依據怎麼樣表決多數決到底要多少第二個就是在我們這麼長的時間這麼多的混亂這麼多的走私然後我們少收了這麼多的稅收"},{"start":815.752,"end":837.1,"text":"最應該負責的人不應該輕輕放過因為這個是很可惡的事情簡直是違法亂紀所以這個你們依據法規好好調查該送監察院就應該送監察院那署長你也委屈了啦那請你好好做署長不要隨便被人家凌駕之上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1342,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時36分）謝謝主席！麻煩請衛福部部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我先調整一下我要問的問題的順序，因為剛好連續前面兩位委員都在談離島醫療，我來自臺東，當然也一樣關心剛剛莊瑞雄委員提到的綠島這個問題。綠島居民跟臺灣居民一樣，他們應該都享有同樣醫療照顧的權利，他們的生命跟健康也不應該因為距離而被延誤，目前這個衛生所是整座島上唯一可以仰賴急救醫療的據點，如今三人輪班制的醫師缺額已經懸缺兩年了，只有靠臺東馬偕一個好心的醫師來支援，現在這位醫師6月即將離職，所以整個綠島衛生所24小時的服務可能中斷。我提這個例子的意思是，今日的綠島可能是明日的澎湖或者明日的哪一個外島，都是一樣的。我在這裡要切入正題，今天這個醫師即將於6月離職然後懸缺補不上的問題，凸顯了整個醫療制度在很多方面的不足，特別是偏鄉離島地區醫護人員的誘因是一個很大的問題，我想就這個短期面臨到的問題直接問一下，因為我覺得我實在沒有辦法容忍說你們還要等到什麼時候才可以補這個缺額，我只想在這裡要求部長，你們能不能立即啟動緊急人力調度來應變這樣的狀況？你們可不可以立即啟動怎麼樣的機制，來彌補、來遞補6月份即將發生的狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，這個也是我們一直在思考的，第一個當然就是過去採用的獎勵方式，比如薪水高一點是不是有可能改善，但是這個又牽涉到整體的薪資結構，就是所有的偏鄉山地離島是不是都要處理，還是說因為缺了這個就在補這個，這些我們都會去分析利弊。第二個，我們是不是給臺東醫院多一點容額，無論是……"],["陳委員瑩：我認為你講的都是緩不濟急，現在就簡單地問，6月就要缺人了，你要立即啟動……"],["邱部長泰源：目前我們已經與衛生局在談了。"],["陳委員瑩：立即啟動這個備援方案。"],["邱部長泰源：其實衛生局是負責當地醫療資源的調配，如果它需要怎麼樣做，中央一定會支持，無論是要容額或什麼，基本上，當地的資源是由衛生局負責調配。但我認為委員關心的這個問題真的是很重要，其實我們也一直持續與衛生局討論，哪裡可以調到人力。如果這個部分是用……"],["陳委員瑩：你什麼時候可以回復本席？如果他們目前正在調度，你們是不是可以更積極的協助、想想辦法？"],["邱部長泰源：我回去後會請照護司及醫事司等相關單位一起開會，馬上尋找有效的方法，立即解決這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！你們就是要窮盡一切方式趕快補齊。我想部長應該也無法忍受，任何一個離島在半夜有病患發生狀況卻找不到醫生，所以這個就是你急迫必須面臨的功課啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們立即啟用所有的資源及辦法去解決。"],["陳委員瑩：你不要在這裡說立即啟動，結果到了6月份還是一樣沒有人耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定全力以赴。"],["陳委員瑩：你什麼時候可以回復本席？既然要立即啟動，你們現在就開始研議，我一定要給你一些壓力，不然大家就是拖啊！我們正在與時間賽跑。"],["邱部長泰源：如果是6月要離開，我們當然希望在6月之前有人力去補位。"],["陳委員瑩：對，既然你們要啟動機制，這個機制一定要在6月之前確認，所以啟動之後到底什麼時候可以回復我？"],["邱部長泰源：2個禮拜之內完成會議，提出可行性的方案並進行，同時也會到委員辦公室報告。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。我希望2個禮拜之後可以有一個圓滿的答復，所以我們就再等你們2個禮拜。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會立即召集相關的司署一起開會。"],["陳委員瑩：這件事情凸顯出短中長期的問題，或許我們應該做一些修法或是專案的規劃，所以我們擇日再來討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員瑩：另外，我要請國健署署長也一起上來。先請教部長，加熱菸健康風險評估審查會議需要三分之二委員的同意才能通過，是不是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：兩年前的辦法就是這樣規定。"],["陳委員瑩：辦法、要點的規定是這樣嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：對，要點。"],["陳委員瑩：今年2月份的加熱菸健康風險評估審查會議，貴署的這位地下賈署長、賈副署長，在會議開始時他突然就自行宣布，通過風險評估須獲得三分之二委員的同意，此為法規之規定，但是在會議開始前沒有任何委員曾被告知這樣的規範。","我簡單的向大家報告一下，2月15日出席14人、同意8人，所以同意的有8票、不同意的有6票，主席裁示並未達到法定三分之二委員的同意，那一次當然就沒有通過了。3月15日出席15人、同意10人、不同意5人，看起來是達到三分之二，仍然是不通過，因為沒有超過三分之二，所以這次會議一樣又不通過了。請問，明明你們在112年訂定的指定菸品健康風險評估審查辦法並沒有三分之二委員同意的規定，賈副署長卻這樣宣布，這個法規的依據在哪裡，可不可以說明一下？"],["邱部長泰源：兩年前的制定方式，可能吳署長比較清楚。"],["陳委員瑩：請吳署長說明一下，因為部長兩年前還與我一起在立法院當同事，好好講喔！"],["吳署長昭軍：在指定菸品健康風險設置要點中規定大會須有三分之二委員出席才能召開會議，而且要有三分之二委員同意才能通過決議。"],["陳委員瑩：主責推動這個法規會議規定的是哪位？是賈副署長吧？"],["吳署長昭軍：他是防菸組的督導長官。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝，這樣很清楚。要點或辦法能不能牴觸法律？部長，可以嗎？一般來說？"],["邱部長泰源：辦法不能牴觸法律啊！"],["陳委員瑩：好！我順便提一下，我國的會議規範是內政部訂定頒布全國的標準，第五十六條很清楚的規定，通過以表決之方式，獲得多數之贊同者，也就是說，會議有採取表決之方式就一定要以多數贊同者的意見作為通過的依據，這個也是我們國家所有一切的民主基礎。這次2月中加熱菸健康風險評估審查會議的14位委員有8位同意、6位不同意，大家也都在會議中充分表達了意見，依照內政部訂定的會議規範，應該要根據專家及委員的意見予以同意開放。","如今衛福部縱容賈副署長凌駕於署長及部長之上，公然以行政手段打臉多數委員的意見，誤導大家不遵守會議審查的規則，讓這個審查委員會流於可以操控的形式，也讓部長遲遲不敢決定執行加熱菸的管理、也造成加熱菸走私販非常猖獗的現況。換句話說，2月15日那天的會議有8票同意、有6票反對，其實它就已經是通過了，現在我拿出法條很清楚的攤在這邊，讓你們很清楚地做為依據。我認為前面的那些作為簡直就是違法亂紀，自己在那邊惡搞、亂搞，而且是完全毫不掩飾的主導一切，衛福部應該要立即停止賈淑麗副署長擔任國健署地下署長一職，並移送監察院。","部長，剛剛我把第五十六條都翻給你看了，現在你清楚了嗎？清楚了！2次審查會議的表決都是多數同意，因此請你裁示，依照內政部頒布的會議規範第五十六條，通過以表決之方式，獲得多數之贊同者，以這一條裁示讓國健署立即宣布加熱菸通過，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我不是法律專家，真的要請法規單位給我們一點解釋。"],["陳委員瑩：有沒有在現場？"],["邱部長泰源：法規……"],["陳委員瑩：他們可以解釋為什麼辦法可以凌駕於第五十六條之上，改成三分之二同意才可以通過，而且還要超過三分之二？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，謝謝你的提醒與指導，我們一定會馬上去請教法律專家，看看我們是不是要依循哪一條。"],["陳委員瑩：今天我的質詢有2個訴求，第一個，內政部頒布的會議規範第五十六條讓你們作為依據，怎麼樣表決？多數決到底要多少？第二個，在這麼長的時間造成這麼多的混亂、這麼多的走私，而且少收了這麼多的稅收，對於最應該負責的人不應該輕輕放過，因為這是很可惡的事情，簡直是違法亂紀！你們要依據法規好好調查，該送監察院就應該送監察院。"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["陳委員瑩：署長，你也委屈了！請你好好做署長，不要隨便被人家凌駕在你之上，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員林楚茵、林德福所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林楚茵書面質詢：","據衛生福利部林靜儀政務次長於本年4月22日於Facebook發文指出，有民眾在社群媒體詢問，其友人居住於中國的家人「長期以來都是服用台灣醫師開立的處方藥」，但因目前無法直接郵寄藥品回中國，因此希望可由其他民眾協助，代為從台灣領取相關處方藥後攜帶入境中國。","根據該則貼文內容，驚覺原來台灣多項處方藥物，在經本國醫師開立處方後，竟可能由居住於中國之人士於當地長期服用。值此時刻，國內藥界已向衛生福利部示警，指美國對等關稅政策恐對我國造成缺藥壓力，若我國藥品無條件提供予旅居中國之非本國人士使用，勢將進一步加深國內缺藥風險。","爰此，請衛生福利部儘速查明該個案所涉藥品之來源、處方簽開立醫師及相關健保使用情形，並全面釐清冒用健保身分、攜帶處方藥品前往中國供親友服用之現況與規模。","另，同一篇貼文亦提及，我國離島地區，特別是金門，有大量「水客」可協助挾帶台灣藥品至中國，並聲稱「可以找他們幫忙」。","又據聯合新聞網本年1月11日報導，我國金門與中國廈門間「小三通」交通管道充斥跑單幫亂象，不僅部分旅客拒絕配合港務人員行李檢查，更遭媒體批評為「國門蒙羞」。","日前本席已指出，美國對等關稅政策旨在建立「非紅供應鏈」，台灣絕不可成為中國「洗產地」中繼點，同理，亦不應成為中國利用台灣進口美國原廠藥品之漏洞破口。","爰請財政部研議加強金馬地區小三通通道之查緝與防範措施，特別針對藥品及民生物資加強風險管控與違規查處。並請彙整台灣自美國進口貨品後復出口至中國之貨品類別與數量，詳實掌握流向。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","國家社會福利政策財源檢討","及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形","問題一","養育孩子過程中，照顧者常面臨工作、家庭、育兒蠟燭多頭燒的狀況，為提供照顧者喘息服務，許多縣市政府提供「兒童臨時托育服務」。","根據衛福部統計，嬰幼兒受虐超過9成發生在家庭內，施虐者則有8成是父母，嬰幼兒不當對待大多發生於受家長照顧管教期間。","請問衛福部代表，如果有更多的「育兒喘息服務」可以讓父母申請使用，減輕父母照顧幼兒壓力，是否有助於減少兒虐問題？並請說明「強化社會安全網計畫」第二期計畫中，有無「育兒喘息服務」可以讓民眾申請使用？","問題二","本席在今年3月4日質詢「行政院卓榮泰院長」時提到，運用「超徵稅收」，行政院若有不同想法，應該要提出對案。","卓榮泰院長當時表示，「超徵稅收」屬於中央的部分應該有3757億元，並回應本席，「將朝這個方向來走，盼超徵稅收用以幫助社會上最需要的人。」","「長照基金」截至114年3月底止「實際賸餘」約206億元，有學者提醒，預估再過二、三年，「長照基金」就要耗盡，加上「房地合一稅」的收入來源減少，政府必須思考新的收入來源。","請問衛福部，是否有向行政院爭取此次「2024稅收超徵」撥補「長照基金」？","問題三","「陽明交通大學衛生福利研究所」教授建議，政府應開辦「長照保險」，提升「長照財務負擔」和使用的公平性，採「稅收」加「保險」的混合財源制度。","醫界也建議，2026年預計實施的「長照3.0」一定要強化財源，建議政府考慮開辦「長照保險」及更多「公務預算」投入，並將「部分健保」的錢，改由「長照端」給付，才能達到穩定和永續。","請問「衛福部」，政府是否有在規劃「長照保險」？預計何時會有方案對外說明？未來2026年「長照3.0」上路後，會採取哪些措施健全「長照基金」財源？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：第一，報告詢答完畢。第二，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，明天是二日一次會。","休息（13時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0c58cf848856f31d3a01776dcf2b4a8ff7bdb191357f7ebfa6a3cf9a7d5d653fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:36:00 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重大社會事件你一個法務部長跟我講 通通不清楚因為我不介入個案的真本又來不介入個案因為我講太清楚 你又說我介入了 干涉了又不介入個案你連偵查洩密都不辦 個案不介入偵查洩密你辦了幾件你辦了幾件這個偵查洩密的這部分檢查機構在這好 沒關係 我就通案來講"},{"start":112.764,"end":115.576,"text":"這件事情如果涉及至少泄密請問檢方該不該辦"},{"start":120.404,"end":147.492,"text":"反正只有泄密如果只有犯罪嫌疑檢方就會立案正辦是啊但是這件我跟委員報告這件我有看這些的這個媒體的一個報導他是引述熟悉青年軍的人士的轉述還有一名被交保青年軍在偵訊後像有人大發牢騷講的就是委員所講的那些所以這個我想媒體有交代他的一個消息的來源"},{"start":148.792,"end":173.728,"text":"好 消息來源 那所以這部分應該很好啊 你不是又不了解了 現在又了解了你又很了解嘛 你都了解嘛他被約談的時候講的東西 青年軍坐在旁邊聽他講青年軍是沒有人被羈押後來被羈押的不是青年軍我講的是約談 你給我講羈押他這可以轉述 這個是不是說"},{"start":175.869,"end":203.912,"text":"這個媒體的報導是昨天出來的嘛我也被檢方約談過啦沒有人坐在我旁邊啦只有檢察官啦然後你跟我講說我都告訴檢察官的東西我告訴檢察官的東西也真的都出去啦然後你跟我講說那是其他的涉案人士但是我們談的是委員是在就是說這件辦理這件事對啊 我就跟你還原場景啊"},{"start":206.206,"end":229.102,"text":"我給你還原場景啊,你又推給青年軍,你堂堂部署來來來,我想請教你啊,我想請教你啊,我告訴你我就是佩服北檢跟淨檢,我非常佩服偵查公開的情形,琳瑯滿目你到現在沒告訴我,請問辦了幾件"},{"start":233.581,"end":249.576,"text":"零啦 一件都沒被起訴啦然後通通都不是檢察官放的 都不是檢察官弄的你們列管幾千件的所謂的那個偵查洩密的新聞資料 新聞資訊你最後起訴是零啦那我要告訴你啊 這你總知道吧 為什麼要規範偵查不公開啊"},{"start":262.449,"end":288.21,"text":"不會不知道吧 部長這個是影響案件是偵辦嘛還有呢這個是依刑訴訟法245條的一個規定嘛還有呢 規定什麼 法規範議職是什麼你作為部長不會不知道吧也要保護當事人權益啊 不是嗎要確保今天檢察官在資訊上是中立的"},{"start":291.107,"end":306.141,"text":"可是我今天跟你講在這次進週刊一樣啊率先大幅報導偵查中的內容還說約談的霸團青年陸續公出實情表示交給中選會的罷免連署資料是由四黨部轉交這個媒體有這樣的報導民進黨啊"},{"start":312.728,"end":334.879,"text":"你們檢察官在民進黨執政之下你們去年已經用這種所謂偵查大公開好好的搞了民眾黨的主席黨檢媒合作無間 案情天天公開 小說都出來連柯文哲看什麼錄影帶 跟案情無關的也可以變小說出去"},{"start":336.786,"end":364.88,"text":"都被你們扣的資料全部可以變成說今天媒體寫的內容然後你今天跟我四五六七八九跟我講說不關你的事沒有檢察官放我上次有質詢過你啊接觸這些資訊的人當事人啦律師啦檢察官啦法官啦警察啦你告訴我最後是律師喔還是當事人啊自己放自己打自己啊"},{"start":367.537,"end":393.516,"text":"就像我之前說過了我退萬萬不言你一直要跟我講說就沒有檢察官放啊反正你這句話走遍天下啊我說過啦請問洩密是不是犯罪行為是不是嘛有保守秘密的公園但是洩漏交付等等這個就是犯罪的行為答對啦很好啊犯罪行為誰來偵查"},{"start":396.43,"end":419.31,"text":"謝謝啊 都很好啊那我就問啊你講得出來我都聽不下去你起訴是零你還跟我講 偵辦什麼啊你偵辦哪一個啊你的洩密案起訴是零啊你列管幾千件起訴零啊偵辦欸效率這麼好就像我講的啊"},{"start":425.697,"end":454.671,"text":"今天喔 我們檢察官 我們部長發明了一個非常棒的話術我們詐騙嚴不嚴重啊 台灣詐騙舉世都很嚴重 但是我知道台灣是很嚴重舉世都很嚴重 我問你台灣問舉世沒關係啦 你不要擔心啦我還沒有在講你詐騙的那個防治的成效 我不是要問這個問題我是打個比方 詐騙是不是犯罪啊"},{"start":456.417,"end":484.709,"text":"是犯罪啊 是啊 很好啊那今天我跟你部長講說萬一我們詐騙幾千件結果我看到成績單成績表現不好這詐騙抓得不夠好或是今天竊盜案抓得不夠好或其他犯罪案抓得不夠好我質詢部長 部長跟我講一句錢不是檢察官偷的啊"},{"start":485.834,"end":511.555,"text":"然後呢 跟我講說 詐騙也不是檢察官詐的啊就像說今天洩密 擺明那麼多洩密在眼前你跟我講說 洩密不是檢察官洩的啊我先不講這顯而易見 今天你們用所謂的偵查訊息然後去炮製一個對在野黨的另外一種夾殺 我先不講這件事情"},{"start":512.932,"end":517.455,"text":"我光講一個犯罪增防本體的檢察官跟所謂的法務部這種成績這種藉口讓人民去公決吧我再問啊部長中學校告發第一階段罷免提議出現死亡嚴肅偽造情事有多少案啊41件罷律25罷藍15罷白1件嘛對不對對不對"},{"start":542.325,"end":567.74,"text":"這個所謂的罷然十五件啊辦了幾件四十一件不是全部的死亡連署它有圍繞有不合格的好啦就一件啦不合格的就一件嘛ABCD藉口理由你可以充斥山海之間但你遮不了一件根本的問題就一件好來來來這一件我說真的啊你們不辦我還覺得"},{"start":571.121,"end":594.301,"text":"你們辦了我還真的是覺得超級欣賞、佩服的擺明你要辦我也懂你的陽謀是什麼嘛不要再講我們辦藍不辦綠了嘛你看看罷免國民黨的我們也辦啊基隆啊好棒啊6點半去抓人啊很棒啊辦啊送船票啊找人啊很棒啊很棒啊"},{"start":595.743,"end":611.866,"text":"對啊 沒有抓已經是恩賜恩典啦對啊 所以嘛 感謝你啦沒有把民眾抓起來啦恩賜恩典啦但你把領銜人抓得很開心啦你把罷免民進黨立委的團體的領銜人抓得很開心啦我要跟你講的是什麼你們好溫柔啊你們好貼心啊你們遇到罷免民進黨的"},{"start":623.783,"end":639.746,"text":"你們的偵辦的處分的強度偵辦的手段的強度比天高比海深了不起直接斬首領銜人直接抓搜索在野黨黨部世界上民主國家我還真沒看到有人去大規模搜索在野黨黨部就我們親愛的民進黨政府"},{"start":653.949,"end":673.306,"text":"統治之下的檢查機關你們做得到我沒辦法啦我不如你們啦馬英九沒辦法不如你啦蔡英文也不如你啦陳水扁也不如你啦陳水扁最近被出征很厲害啦你們厲害啊我佩服嘛我欣賞嘛佩服欣賞啊這是對所謂的"},{"start":680.331,"end":694.718,"text":"罷免民進黨的公民你們的處分的強度直接斬首然後再搭配進檢再放新聞完美組合招招致命 刀刀要害了不起 厲害但你們刷新我的眼睛啊你們就算要擠一件罷免國民黨的你也可以這麼有創意的"},{"start":709.978,"end":712.939,"text":"罷免民進黨的是斬首然後呢罷免國民黨的是燒絞毛啊去騷擾連樹人啊六點半啊起床真早啊然後親會非常溫柔的然後再去約談先搞個騷擾這個連樹人"},{"start":736.311,"end":764.522,"text":"然後呢在溫柔的約談領先人請問有沒有搜索民進黨黨部有沒有報偉我想我們完全沒有藍綠那我們去基隆辦那個是綠的你又說我們太早起床我想這個對我們來說其實不是很公平這個好像就是說有人作弊被抓到不去罵那個作弊的就一直在罵這些抓作弊的這個讓我覺得有點confuse來 第二次問你"},{"start":765.677,"end":766.92,"text":"第二次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部"},{"start":767.867,"end":793.626,"text":"那就看檢察官對於證據的又個案了 前面你講的那麼正正有詞就不是個案今天你現在講到民進黨又變個案不是 這個突然間我們這麼短時間內突然間有這麼多網身的前輩能夠起來簽名這不是一個很奇怪的事情第四次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部這個看個案的需要第五次問你有沒有搜索民進黨的黨部沒有啦"},{"start":798.615,"end":826.683,"text":"你答不出來你心虛我已經回答過啦我沒有答不出來你有回答啊我有回答你啊你有回答沒有兩個字啊我有回答你啊對啊這個反正是看個案的需要啊哎呀我還不懂你的招數遇到罷免國民黨的你溫柔啊體貼啊善解人意啊你先去先去騷擾連署人你知道當天所有人在幹誰嗎在罵誰嗎"},{"start":829.264,"end":847.035,"text":"在罵林沛翔啊 網路上炸鍋啊我想沒有欸 對啊 我們也沒看到 對啊你沒看到 我看到好不好 你在看的東西像剛剛我們的部長進檢的報告都沒看到報道都沒看到 公講都沒看到然後再問下去 突然又記起來 通通看到"},{"start":848.407,"end":875.985,"text":"好啦 你們公信力如何讓大家去看啊沒有啊 現在就是說這個作弊的被抓到了有沒有搜索領銜人就一直在罵那個抓作弊的人有沒有搜索領銜人你跟我講說作弊那你要不要去懷疑說今天民進黨黨部作弊不是啊 這個死亡連署是這麼明顯的偽造文書我們檢調機關可以閉著眼睛當作不知道嗎這麼明顯的偽造文書的基隆是"},{"start":877.205,"end":883.491,"text":"結果你只去約談連署人你去騷擾連署人 你好意思跟我講你作弊都抓我沒意見你作弊都抓我沒意見"},{"start":895.983,"end":897.105,"text":"你今天對於基隆你去騷擾連樹人清晨六點半但你基本上就是在示警連引嫌人"},{"start":915.167,"end":922.215,"text":"鐵證證事實放在一起 不必混淆這個概念啦我告訴你啦 你不用混淆這個概念鐵證證事實就在眼前有沒有搜索國民黨黨部"},{"start":929.891,"end":957.542,"text":"這個檢察官按照證據去跟法院申請法官同意有沒有搜索國民黨黨部第三次問你有沒有搜索國民黨黨部第四次問你那你有沒有去向法官申請搜索民進黨基隆市黨部又回到個案這邊就是法官這邊叫個案法官個案法官個案法官個案法官個案我們是一個法治國家本來就是個案你厲害啦"},{"start":961.448,"end":986.931,"text":"你就是有搜索國民黨黨部 有沒有搜索領銜人你就是有搜索領銜人 還有個案啊我重再問你一次 你也不用回答 讓人民來攻擊我一定會回答 你問啊來 有沒有搜索國民黨黨部看個案的需要啊 這是法官核發的搜索票有沒有搜索民進黨黨部這也是看個案的需要啊有沒有搜索罷免民進黨立委的領銜人"},{"start":988.701,"end":1011.951,"text":"有約談領銷人啊 你講的基隆人那一件有啊有沒有搜索啊這個就是看個案的需要啊有約談就答得出來 沒搜索就答不出來講官依照卷內的證據去審酌 對啊我告訴你啊 局長到目前為止 你最適合當民進黨的官啦我完全無黨無派我完全無黨無派謝謝你啦來 我問部長"},{"start":1017.674,"end":1044.751,"text":"那我來看看你們是不是都一模一樣部長檢察官有沒有搜索民進黨黨部剛才那個局長已經答覆過啦委員你也知道嗎我現在是問你我現在是問你有沒有這個就是檢察官認為有需要第二次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部第三次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部"},{"start":1047.674,"end":1077.129,"text":"第一百次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部這個大家都公眾都皆知大家都知道是什麼公眾皆知的事實是什麼公眾皆知 唯你不知嗎有沒有嘛這個要不要搜索那個某政黨的黨部這個都是公眾都知啊那你就不是公眾啦公眾都知有沒有嘛第一百零一次問你啊"},{"start":1083.854,"end":1109.464,"text":"都目前是沒有非常好謝謝你所以我們講這個有沒有要搜索的這個完全就是看案情的一個需要證據嘛部長我質詢你多少次我告訴你我要的東西我質詢的東西也沒有很過分不坦白講你剛剛回答我就肯定你啊我肯定你都不行嗎肯定你都不行嗎"},{"start":1111.345,"end":1116.457,"text":"你都答沒有啊 我肯定你啊 肯定你不行嗎我可不可以肯定你 部長謝謝嘛 對啊你學學啦"},{"start":1123.237,"end":1150.698,"text":"這不用選齁 這個就是事實事實勝於雄辯來 我再問你下一個對啊 事實勝於雄辯你旁邊就出一個雄辯派啊 事實贏不過他我們不是雄辯 我們就是陳述事實來 部長我想請教你下一個問題有沒有搜索國民黨黨部有沒有這個媒體都法官的話搜索這樣啊跟前面答案一樣 公眾都知嘛你前面都答得出來 現在答不出來"},{"start":1151.909,"end":1171.565,"text":"第三次問你有沒有搜索國民黨黨部就法官核發了當然要去執行啊有嘛好啦那再回頭問你那有沒有向法官申請搜索民進黨黨部基隆民進黨黨部有沒有個案啦我幫你回答看看個案正確吧你看我多瞭解你"},{"start":1172.495,"end":1181.622,"text":"肚子裡有蛔蟲 看個案有沒有向法官搜索國民黨黨部有沒有向法官搜索國民黨黨部有啊有沒有向法官搜索民進黨黨部向法官申請搜索國民黨黨部你就答得出有有沒有向法官搜索民進黨黨部你就答得叫個案我的中文不好啦我真的中文很爛啦"},{"start":1202.759,"end":1223.696,"text":"我在這邊我的腦袋也開花了我再問你一次嘛 就是有嘛不是嗎 有啊 有搜索啊不管是檢察官申請還是法院同意 就是有嘛沒錯吧 我理解不會錯吧上禮拜發生的事 國民黨那個領銜也被搜在前面台南市黨部被搜 我應該沒理解錯誤吧沒有吧 我沒理解錯誤吧"},{"start":1238.308,"end":1265.961,"text":"第六次問有沒有搜索國民黨黨部這個媒體都已經報導了嘛那就是報導是有還是沒有啊你今天布展只看媒體報導啊這個前天都已經講過了嘛你講過啦 你講的是有還是沒有記憶不好啊前天就講過啦有講過嗎 你什麼時候講過前天就講過依法官的搜索票去執行了啊就有嘛"},{"start":1267.932,"end":1273.598,"text":"就有嘛 我這樣講沒錯吧 就有嘛就有嘛我現在在問你這件事 你扯共諜共諜我都沒時間問你啦 我也沒打算問了 因為來不及了啦那就有嘛"},{"start":1290.083,"end":1308.335,"text":"好難喔 人生真難 做官更難 打個有志都這麼沉重千斤萬擔壓在肩上 覺得無法吐出一個有志但沒關係 部長我依然肯定 你知道為什麼因為至少在前面那個問題 你回答的沒有你比旁邊那個有擔當的多 就這麼簡單謝謝你謝謝羅議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時36分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：請教部長，國民黨臺北市黨部主委黃呂錦茹被約談的時候，說國民黨青年軍很熱情，也很有想法，不但動作快，效率也很高，沒多久就完成罷綠連署，但他對細節並不知情，也沒有下令要求黨工提供名冊給青年軍抄襲。這段偵查訊息的描述，想請教您是在哪邊看到的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：是鏡週刊，又是鏡週刊！鏡週刊現在有個綽號叫什麼你知道嗎？就是「鏡檢」！這明明是在偵辦中的案件，其他人都不應該知道。黃呂錦茹什麼時候被約談的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：你統統不清楚，是不清楚部長，恭喜！他上禮拜被約談，不是嗎？這麼大的重大社會事件，你一個法務部長跟我講你統統不清楚？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我不介入個案的偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：又來不介入個案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我講太清楚，你又說我介入、干涉了。"],["羅委員智強：你又不介入個案，你連偵查洩密都不辦，個案不介入？你對偵查洩密辦了幾件？你辦了幾件？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查洩密這部分，我們檢察機關在這裡……"],["羅委員智強：好，沒關係，我就通案來講。這件事情如果涉及偵查洩密，請問檢方該不該辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：洩密部分如果知有犯罪嫌疑，檢方就會立案偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：是啊。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是這件我跟委員報告，我有看這些媒體的報導，這是引述熟悉青年軍人士的轉述，還有一名被交保青年軍在偵訊後向友人大發牢騷，講的就是委員所講的那些。所以這個我想媒體有交代消息的來源，所以這部分應該……"],["羅委員智強：很好啊，你剛才不是說不瞭解了，現在又瞭解了，你又很瞭解嘛！你都瞭解，他被約談的時候講的東西，青年軍坐在旁邊聽他講？"],["鄭部長銘謙：青年軍沒有人被羈押，被羈押的不是青年軍……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我講的是約談，你跟我講羈押？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個可以轉述，媒體的報導是昨天出來的嘛……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我也被檢方約談過啦，沒有人坐在我旁邊，只有檢察官，我告訴檢察官的東西也真的都出去了，你跟我說那是其他的涉案人士……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我剛才講那個案件，但是委員是在說這件在辦理的……"],["羅委員智強：對啊，我就跟你還原場景，我跟你還原場景，你又推給青年軍，你堂堂的部長！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是我推的，這個是媒體的報導。"],["羅委員智強：來！來！來！我想請教您，我告訴你，我就是佩服北檢跟鏡檢，我非常佩服。偵查公開的情形，琳琅滿目，你到現在也沒告訴我，請問辦了幾件？零啦！一件都沒被起訴啦！然後統統都說不是檢察官放的，都不是檢察官弄的，你們列管幾千件所謂偵查洩密的新聞資訊，你最後起訴是零啦！那我要告訴你，這你總知道吧，為什麼要規範偵查不公開啊？你不會不知道吧？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個影響案件之偵辦嘛！"],["羅委員智強：還有呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是依刑事訴訟法第二十五條的規定。"],["羅委員智強：還有呢？規定什麼？法規範意旨是什麼？你作為部長不會不知道吧？你要保護當事人權益啊，不是嗎？要確保今天檢察官在資訊上是中立的。可是我今天跟你講，這次鏡週刊一樣率先大幅報導偵查中的內容，還說約談的罷團青年陸續供出實情，表示交給中選會的罷免連署資料是由市黨部轉交。"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體有這樣的報導。"],["羅委員智強：檢察官在民進黨執政之下，你們去年已經用了這種偵查大公開，好好的搞了民眾黨的主席，黨檢媒合作無間，案情天天公開，小說都出來，連柯文哲看什麼錄影帶，跟案情無關的也可以變小說出去，都被你們扣的資料全部可以變成今天媒體寫的內容，然後你今天跟我456、789，跟我說不關你的事，沒有檢察官放。我上次有質詢過你，接觸這些資訊的人，當事人有律師啦、檢察官啦、法官啦、警察啦，你告訴我這個是律師還是當事人？自己放自己打自己啊？就像我之前說過了，我退萬萬步言，你一直要跟我講就沒有檢察官放啊，反正你這句話走遍天下啊！我說過啦，請問洩密是不是犯罪行為？是不是嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有保守秘密的公務員要是洩漏、交付等，這個就是犯罪的行為。"],["羅委員智強：答對了，很好啊，犯罪行為誰來偵查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就檢察官偵查啊！"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啊，都很好啊，那我就問啦……"],["鄭部長銘謙：他不是有分案在偵辦中了嗎？"],["羅委員智強：你講得出來，我都聽不下去，你起訴是零，你還跟我講偵辦什麼？你偵辦哪一個啊？你的洩密案起訴是零啊，你列管幾千件而起訴是零啊！偵辦？效率這麼好？就像我講的，今天我們檢察官、我們部長發明了一個非常棒的話術，我們詐騙嚴不嚴重啊？部長，臺灣詐騙嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：舉世都很嚴重，但是我知道臺灣是很嚴重。"],["羅委員智強：舉世都很嚴重啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：舉世都很嚴重嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我問你臺灣，不問舉世，沒關係啦，你不要擔心啦，我還沒有在講你詐騙防制的成效問題，我不是要問這個問題。我是打個比方，詐騙是不是犯罪啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是犯罪啊！"],["羅委員智強：是啊，很好啊，那今天我跟部長講，萬一我們詐騙幾千件，結果看到成績單，成績表現不好，詐騙抓得不夠好，或是竊盜案抓得不夠好，或其他犯罪案抓得不夠好，我質詢部長，部長跟我講一句，錢不是檢察官偷的啊，同樣跟我講詐騙也不是檢察官詐的啊！就像說今天洩密，擺明那麼多洩密在眼前，你跟我說洩密不是檢察官洩的啊！我先不講這顯而易見今天你們用所謂的偵查訊息，然後去炮製一個對在野黨的另外一種夾殺。我先不講這件事情，我光講一個犯罪偵防本體的檢察官跟法務部，這種成績、這種藉口，讓人民去公決吧！","我再問啊！部長，中選會現在告發第一階段罷免提議出現死亡連署偽造情事有多少案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：41件。"],["羅委員智強：罷綠25件、罷藍15件、罷白1件，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["羅委員智強：所謂的罷藍15件，辦了幾件？"],["鄭部長銘謙：41件不是全部都死亡連署，它有偽造不合格的……"],["羅委員智強：就一件啦！ABCD藉口理由，你可以衝刺山海之間，但你遮不了根本的問題就一件，說真的，這一件你們辦了，我還真是覺得超級欣賞、佩服！擺明你要辦，我也懂你的陽謀是什麼，就是不要再講我們辦藍不辦綠！你看看罷免國民黨的，我們也辦啊！六點半去基隆抓人，辦啊！很棒啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有抓人，這只是送傳票！"],["羅委員智強：送傳票，找人啊！很棒啊！對啊，沒有抓已經是恩賜、恩典啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！所以感謝你沒有把民眾抓起來，恩賜、恩典啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["羅委員智強：但你把領銜人抓得很開心！你把罷免民進黨立委的團體領銜人抓得很開心！我要跟你講的是什麼？你們好溫柔，你們好貼心啊！遇到罷免民進黨的，你們偵辦、處分的強度，偵辦手段的強度，哇！比天高比海深！了不起！直接斬首！領銜人直接抓！搜索在野黨黨部！世界上的民主國家，我還真沒有看到有人大規模去搜索在野黨黨部！就我們親愛的民進黨政府統治之下的檢察機關，你們做得到！我沒辦法，我不如你們啦！馬英九沒辦法，不如你啦！蔡英文也不如你啦！陳水扁也不如你啦！陳水扁最近被出征得很厲害！你們厲害啊！我佩服！我欣賞！對罷免民進黨的公民，你們處分的強度就是直接斬首，然後再搭配鏡檢放新聞！完美組合拳是招招致命，刀刀要害！了不起，厲害！你們刷新了我的眼睛！你們就算要擠一件辦罷免國民黨的，也可以這麼有創意！對罷免民進黨的是斬首，罷免國民黨的是搔腳毛？六點半去騷擾連署人，起床真早啊！然後非常溫柔的再去約談，先去騷擾這個連署人，然後再溫柔的約談領銜人！請問有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？有沒有？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我想我們完全沒有藍綠啦！"],["羅委員智強：10秒鐘。"],["陳局長白立：我們去基隆辦的那個是綠的，你又說我們太早起床啦！"],["羅委員智強：20秒鐘。"],["陳局長白立：這個對我們來說，其實不是很公平。這就好像有人作弊被抓到，不去罵那個作弊的人，就一直罵那些抓作弊的人，這會讓我覺得有點confused。"],["羅委員智強：第二次問你，有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？"],["陳局長白立：那就看檢察官對於證據的……"],["羅委員智強：又個案了！前面你才講得那麼振振有詞就不是個案，現在講到民進黨，又變成是個案！"],["陳局長白立：不是，我們今天這麼短時間內，突然間……"],["羅委員智強：第三次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？"],["陳局長白立：有這麼多往生的前輩能夠起來簽名，這不是一個很奇怪的事？"],["羅委員智強：第四次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？"],["陳局長白立：這個看個案的需要。"],["羅委員智強：第五次問你有沒有搜索民進黨的黨部？"],["陳局長白立：我已經回答你。"],["羅委員智強：沒有啦！你答不出來，你心虛！"],["陳局長白立：沒有啊，我剛剛已經回答過啦！我沒有答不出來！"],["羅委員智強：你有回答啊？"],["陳局長白立：我有回答你啊！"],["羅委員智強：你有回答沒有兩個字啊？"],["陳局長白立：我有回答你啊！對啊！"],["羅委員智強：哈、哈、哈！"],["陳局長白立：這個本來就是看個案的需要啊！"],["羅委員智強：哎呀！我還不懂你的招數！遇到罷免國民黨的部分，你溫柔體貼，善解人意！你先去騷擾連署人，你知道當天所有人在罵誰嗎？在罵林沛祥！網路上炸鍋！"],["陳局長白立：我想沒有欸！我們也沒看到！"],["羅委員智強：你沒看到？我看到！報導都沒看到？部長鏡檢的報告都沒有看到……"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，這個就是我剛剛提的……"],["羅委員智強：然後再問下去，突然又記起來，統統看到？好啦，你們的公信力如何，就讓大家去看啦！"],["陳局長白立：現在就是這個作弊的被抓到了……"],["羅委員智強：你們有沒有搜索領銜人？"],["陳局長白立：結果一直在罵那個抓作弊的人……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有搜索領銜人？你跟我說作弊，那你要不要去懷疑今天民進黨黨部作弊？"],["陳局長白立：不是啊，死亡連署是這麼明顯的偽造文書，我們檢調機關可以閉著眼睛當作不知道嗎？"],["羅委員智強：這麼明顯的偽造文書的基隆市……"],["陳局長白立：基隆市那一件沒有死亡連署，中選會的告發，基隆那件沒有死亡連署。"],["羅委員智強：結果你們只是去約談連署人、騷擾連署人，你好意思跟我講！作弊你都抓，我沒意見！"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員同意。"],["羅委員智強：今天對於基隆這一件，清晨六點半，你去騷擾連署人，基本上就是在示警領銜人，把鐵錚錚這事實放在一起，我告訴你啦，你不用混淆這個概念。"],["陳局長白立：不會混淆，不會混淆。"],["羅委員智強：鐵錚錚的事實就在眼前。"],["陳局長白立：這沒完全沒有混淆啊，這很清楚啊！"],["羅委員智強：有沒有搜索國民黨黨部？"],["陳局長白立：這個檢察官按照……"],["羅委員智強：都在辦嘛！"],["陳局長白立：按照證據，去跟法院聲請，法官同意……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有搜索國民黨黨部？第三次問你有沒有？"],["陳局長白立：法官同意核發的搜索票……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有搜索國民黨黨部？第四次問你。"],["陳局長白立：我回答你啦，法官同意發搜索票。"],["羅委員智強：那你有沒有去向法官聲請搜索民進黨基隆市黨部？"],["陳局長白立：這要看個案的需要。"],["羅委員智強：又回到個案！"],["陳局長白立：本來就是這樣子！"],["羅委員智強：這邊就是法官，這邊叫個案！法官、個案！法官、個案！法官、個案！"],["陳局長白立：我們是一個法治國家……"],["羅委員智強：你厲害啦！你就是有搜索國民黨黨部，有沒有搜索領銜人？"],["陳局長白立：看個案的需要。"],["羅委員智強：我再問你一次，你不用回答，讓人民來公決。"],["陳局長白立：我一定會回答，你問啊！"],["羅委員智強：來，有沒有搜索國民黨黨部？"],["陳局長白立：看個案的需要啊，這是法官核發的搜索票。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？"],["陳局長白立：這也是看看個案的需要啊，檢察官也要看卷證的證據。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有搜索罷免民進黨立委的領銜人？"],["陳局長白立：有約談領銜人，你講的基隆人那一件有啊。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有搜索啊？"],["陳局長白立：這個就是看個案的需要啊。"],["羅委員智強：哈哈哈！有約談就答得出來，沒搜索就答不出來！"],["陳局長白立：檢察官依照卷內的證據去審酌，對啊！"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，局長，到目前為止你最適合當民進黨的官。"],["陳局長白立：我完全無黨無派！"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你。我來問部長，看看你們是不是都一模一樣。請問部長，檢察官有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛才局長已經答復過了，委員你知道嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我現在是問你！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你也知道！"],["羅委員智強：我現在是問你，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是檢察官認為有需要……"],["羅委員智強：第二次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？第三次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？第一百次問你有沒有搜索民進黨黨部？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就公眾都皆知……"],["羅委員智強：大家知道的是什麼？公眾皆知的事實是什麼？公眾皆知，唯你不知嗎？有沒有嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要不要搜索某政黨的黨部，這個都是……"],["羅委員智強：你講公眾都知道，那你就不是公眾啦！公眾都知，有沒有嘛？第一百零一次問你，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：到目前是沒有。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，謝謝你。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以，我講這個有沒有要搜索的，完全就是看案情的一個需要，證據……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我質詢你多少次，坦白講，我要的東西，我質詢的東西也沒有很過分。你剛才的回答，我就肯定你啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["羅委員智強：我肯定你都不行嗎？你就答沒有啊，我肯定你啊！我可不可以肯定你？部長！"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝嘛！對啊！你學學啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不用學，這個就是事實。"],["羅委員智強：也不需要你去學！"],["鄭部長銘謙：事實勝於雄辯啦！"],["羅委員智強：來，我再問你下一個……對啊！事實勝於雄辯，你旁邊就出一個雄辯派，事實贏不過他。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不是雄辯，我們就是陳述事實而已，哪有什麼雄辯？"],["羅委員智強：部長，我想請教你下一個問題，有沒有搜索國民黨黨部？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個媒體都……法官都發搜索票了。"],["羅委員智強：對，跟前面答案一樣，公眾都知。你前面都答得出來，現在答不出來？第三次問你，有沒有搜索國民黨黨部？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就法官核發了，當然要去執行。"],["羅委員智強：有嘛！再回頭問你，有沒有向法官聲請搜索基隆民進黨黨部？有沒有？個案，我幫你回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：看個案證據。"],["羅委員智強：你看我多了解你，像你肚子裡的蛔蟲，看個案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員……我們講話不要去講這些……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有向法官聲請搜索國民黨黨部？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不要講寄生蟲的事。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有向法官聲請搜索國民黨黨部？有啊！有沒有向法官聲請搜索民進黨黨部？有沒有向法官聲請搜索國民黨黨部？你就答得出有。有沒有向法官聲請搜索民進黨黨部？你就答個案。我的中文不好，我真的中文很爛。我在這邊，我的腦袋也開花了。我再問你一次，就是有，不是嗎？有搜索啊！不管是檢察官聲請，還是法院同意，就是有，沒錯吧？我的理解不會錯吧？上禮拜發生的事，國民黨的領銜人被搜，前面是臺南市黨部被搜，我應該沒理解錯誤吧？沒有吧？我沒理解錯誤吧？第六次問你，有沒有搜索國民黨黨部？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個媒體都已經報導了。"],["羅委員智強：報導是有還是沒有啊？部長只看媒體報導啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個前面都已經講過了。"],["羅委員智強：你講過，你講有還是沒有，我記憶力不好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：前面就講過了。"],["羅委員智強：有講過嗎？你什麼時候講過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：前面就講過，依法官的搜索票去執行了。"],["羅委員智強：就有嘛！我這樣講沒錯吧？就有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，我跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：就有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：上一次、共諜那一次的……"],["羅委員智強：我現在在問你這件事情，你扯共諜，共諜我都沒時間問你，我也沒打算問了，因為來不及了。就有嘛！好難哦！人生真難，做官更難，答個「有」字都這麼沉重，千金萬擔壓在肩上，無法吐出一個「有」字。但沒關係，部長，我依然肯定你，你知道為什麼？因為至少在前面那個問題，你回答了「沒有」，你比旁邊那個有擔當得多。就這麼簡單，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：下一位登記的傅崐萁委員改提書面質詢。","登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，現有委員蔡易餘請求詢答，在場委員有無異議？（無）沒有異議，請蔡易餘委員進行詢答，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc04498bd96dd0d54994d63fb5309bb2e637bdb191357f7ebfa10f22aa09be5a1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:26:21 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數這個有沒有辦法粗略的講一下"},{"start":186.741,"end":211.151,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我們把它擴大就是希望有疑似個案的人能夠及早的掛到號然後縮短他掛號等待的時間進到聯評了以後我們也希望能夠在45天他能夠拿到他的聯評證書那這樣的話他才能夠進到後面的療癒的部分那就是我們擴大的一個目的那45天這個有達成嗎"},{"start":213.212,"end":232.199,"text":"目前以113年來講跟112年來比的話那麼我們從過去的84.8提升到94.6那我們希望今年底能夠達到百分之百但是我們還在努力當中因為對於小孩子的"},{"start":233.86,"end":250.537,"text":"的發展遲緩其實對家長來講是一種很大的心理負擔所以我們必須要盡可能的縮短他等待評估的時間因為評估完他才能夠真正進入早療系統有民間團體"},{"start":252.947,"end":278.317,"text":"表示每年增加療癒的能量跟疑似遲緩兒童的通報數量其實是非常的不成正比的就是說療癒的能量也就是說簡單的講就是療癒的能量不足啦那兒童等待療癒的時間只要過長可能會影響到黃金的治療時間嘛 對不對"},{"start":285.446,"end":314.148,"text":"療癒的門診數量不足的原因是不是因為專業評估的人員不足我想應該這樣說我們為什麼要去做篩檢就希望把疑似個案找出來趕快找出來然後趕快進到聯評那聯評卻拿到聯評書他就要說進到療癒的階段那我們後續療癒的階段因為有健保的相關的制度來介入"},{"start":317.51,"end":324.787,"text":"對,看樣子就是速度還是少慢了一些啦"},{"start":326.188,"end":330.929,"text":"我們再跟健保來檢討一下當然進去了以後有健保的問題這就是一個更複雜的問題不過我想站在國健署這邊還是必須要能夠儘速的讓"},{"start":348.221,"end":375.834,"text":"讓專業評估的人員能夠我們盡快的把這些找出來的人讓他確診 確診完了以後就能夠進到療癒的部分對 因為其實聯平中心他大概要結合兩科以上的專科醫師還要有四個直系的專業評估人員這個是很需要人力也很需要財力的一件事情所以國健署"},{"start":380.538,"end":384.123,"text":"基本上補助聯平中心的費用是一百萬那離島縣市"},{"start":387.028,"end":416.508,"text":"大概多增加5萬我覺得太少啦我們會來再考慮對 因為其實錢不多啦就是盡可能的讓離島因為其實離島有很多困難我在這邊時間的關係所以我沒有辦法講得很詳細啦像剛剛莊惠雄委員講的等一下陳毅委員也會講啦就是離島偏鄉他需要的挹注的資源"},{"start":417.248,"end":431.556,"text":"我覺得你們應該是可以再多給一些啦那澎湖呢就現在只有一個聯平中心是 我們正在湖島第二家對 那"},{"start":432.779,"end":452.557,"text":"有沒有進度目前就我上個禮拜有跟陳局長聯絡那也跟這個部立或者是三金總議院的兩個議院在討論這件事情那相關如何儘快的來完成我想是很重要的事情對 迅速的把它推進國進署有把64個偏鄉地區設定為外展評估的指定地區"},{"start":459.11,"end":479.504,"text":"那讓醫療機構可以進駐社區辦理早療評估這個是很好因為偏鄉總是交通比較不方便那我們到社區去也可以讓社區的民眾不用出來"},{"start":481.165,"end":506.416,"text":"他本來就有意識要來評估的他方便那沒有意識到的他也會有早期療癒的意識那我不知道為什麼離島的縣市沒有被列入是這樣子齁 就像剛才莊惠雄委員在講離島的韓語其實澎湖有很多小離島我知道"},{"start":507.062,"end":526.811,"text":"那很多小離島其實這些真的很需要外展的評估那假如說我們不把他納入呢因為他小離島又封閉所以有的時候對於遲緩的觀念沒有"},{"start":531.855,"end":549.103,"text":"沒有那麼健全是不是我們透過外展我剛才講的就是一來方便就近評估二來也讓社區的居民小離島的居民比較有早期療癒早期發現早期療癒的意思"},{"start":551.78,"end":570.814,"text":"這個我強烈要求必須要把離島納入我在這裡就不設時間啦可是我覺得你們要趕快把離島也納入澎湖有住人的島嶼就有19個"},{"start":572.649,"end":596.922,"text":"有一些其實是他的醫療瓶頸是比剛剛莊瑞雄委員講的綠島還嚴重很多所以是不是你們把偏鄉地區設定外展評估指定地區這個我是贊成的我必須要講這個我是贊成的可是把離島也一併納入好不好"},{"start":597.987,"end":614.661,"text":"跟委員報告一下好不好那個64個是地方提出來我們來指定所以澎湖這件事很容易就是澎湖縣長我們會跟他討論澎湖縣長只要提出來我們就同意好 那你們也主動跟他們聯絡一下你們也主動跟他們聯絡一下對 沒有問題好 謝謝署長好 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衛生所生的啦那你111年一個退休以後沒在的了 現在剩兩個啦現在台東馬街一個月"},{"start":162.293,"end":164.834,"text":"一個去支援一個禮拜我看這個有時候不出事都很困難這種靠人情靠義氣的方式撐得了一時到底能夠撐得多久台東衛生局他們也很盡責也積極在招募區醫院裡面的醫生來去協助但是呢"},{"start":185.95,"end":188.913,"text":"大家每一個區域院的急診都到臨界點了沒人了所以柏廷我要問你就是你像力度這樣我們要為他籌謀這真的會出問題所以我要拜託你就是說是不是我們請部長能夠正面回應就是說我們去檢視一下離島的醫師的這些資源來啟動區域人力的一個媒合"},{"start":210.973,"end":236.718,"text":"你像比如說 你說配合 你說金門 這裡的綠島 還是南嶼南嶼現在三個就剛好其他是不是有多餘的人力這些公費醫生人力的一個配置如果發現有些地方可能比較充裕的可不可以跟我們協調短期輪調來支援綠島讓綠島的衛生所至少你可以達到基本的三位常住一室的一個配置嘛我不曉得部長你的看法好 謝謝"},{"start":240.701,"end":263.43,"text":"台東的醫療真的是很需要一直來關注有時候要曬,有時候真的是缺乏那真的很感謝莊委員跟陳穎委員最近對台東馬介醫院他們解決他們住宿的一個問題我想這是一個mission impossible但是你們達成了"},{"start":264.87,"end":282.361,"text":"我想會留住到台東馬捷醫院的一個醫護同仁的量能,這是非常關鍵的,在這邊真的非常感佩跟感謝那立島這個部分一直都是常常找不到人,每次立島的醫生又去換車"},{"start":286.055,"end":314.225,"text":"對於不好他就覺得他很犧牲他就走了所以我想全國的所以我們都會有面臨三地離島都有這種情況尤其離島的問題更是要注意我覺得我們一定要用盡辦法讓醫師能夠留在那邊譬如說台東那些在地培養的生"},{"start":315.906,"end":326.657,"text":"那個醫師是可以來看看在地培養的公會醫師我們根據過去是這樣子我也很多學生他們分到台東"},{"start":329.088,"end":340.313,"text":"想盡辦法就是早點買,要回去台北不然台東老醫生,都知道這年輕的女兒來就是要讓她老四年,每天晚上都要陪她們去老醫,那裡是長的都要買好花,都要祝這名,要買給她們活得很快樂"},{"start":353.999,"end":365.74,"text":"但是他還是兩年就跟你衝到台北來了所以對這些老醫生心情傷害很大我的意思就是說你如果是大台北大地你叫人去那裡"},{"start":367.636,"end":382.342,"text":"公會服務不一定 代表台東的狀況你都知道啊代表你全部都了解啊那這樣我的意思就是說你111年3月1號本地破3個你現在有一個失調 減一個嘛我現在不是在拿衛生索在發救命你知道嗎我現在是在跟你說你衛福部我們政府有責任喔"},{"start":391.306,"end":394.61,"text":"我們確實是有責任喔所以我剛才第一樣說的就是說我們要盤整化其他離島的公費生離開老剩餘的資源拜託來擊彎離島這一定來努力一定可以齁不是說一定來努力來...不不不 不能只有一定努力喔你努力到成果如果零也是叫做努力就做白工去了"},{"start":411.187,"end":422.497,"text":"依你邱太元部長努力下去 你說可以沒有結果那開什麼 笑掉人家的大牙啦你有具體承諾啦 好不好感謝莊委員對我的信心齁一定 我一定對你有信心的啦你能聽感動的 別想太多好啊 好啊 好就好 後來再說嘛好就好 一定來拚喔 好就好 你跟他說這樣好就好第二個就是說 那個第一個方案嘛齁那其實我一直都覺得啦 你像蘭嶼也是離島啦蘭嶼他就三個啦"},{"start":438.424,"end":447.188,"text":"啊剩下綠島的兩個啦 那就很簡單嘛你那個幼嬰部一樣嘛你像譬如說你到蘭嶼去的一年公費生一年可以折抵1.5年啊你綠島就沒有啊你那個制度的設計就讓人家覺得沒有人性化我就不想去啦欸欸 醫生也是人 他也很會算的欸 我公費生 我去綠島 我去蘭嶼我要怎樣一年折抵1.5 我去綠島一年跟一年 他就沒在研討先綠島沒有"},{"start":468.247,"end":476.213,"text":"綠島本來有啦 可是現在沒有了啦 現在就沒有折抵啦金門好像也有2比1嘛是嘛 我要說的是 只綠島沒有嘛你沒有這個制度 只綠島你沒有了 綠島人就不要去綠島一定要給你獎勵啊"},{"start":484.999,"end":485.88,"text":"我現在怕的是你這個制度設計同樣都是離島"},{"start":505.253,"end":521.349,"text":"你公費生兩年後出來900個可能會解決這個問題我是怕你這兩年裡面呢離島 尤其是綠島你現在只有兩個醫生這樣 馬街醫院一個月能去集完一個禮拜你這個醫療這兩年內如果再有一個"},{"start":522.33,"end":525.871,"text":"再辭職的話,你會崩潰掉我是提前給你示警啦你也認為這個是本來就政府的責任這不是說在衛生所裡跟他們說救命喔,我們這裡沒有醫生不是,是你四千人分隊就住在那裡你旅遊忘記,再四萬人,再四萬人回去是不是這個對整個醫療"},{"start":542.535,"end":548.979,"text":"這個離島這個部分我們本來這個資源我看醫療部隊的基本的領款我們不能碰運氣啦不能碰運氣啦那綠島就變成現在是一個制度上的漏網之魚我認為這不對啊我雖然不用來委婉委婉問問你 我是好意啊因為你是我的兄弟啊你列島你沒有把它撐起來的話那要開什麼玩笑 政府就失職了那些地理位置我們當然是比較在大海啊"},{"start":572.675,"end":578.377,"text":"我們一定用盡辦法完成任務好 你這不是跟他承諾而已 你給他先把他承諾就綠島的健康不要再靠這個運氣 奇蹟和義氣來支撐好不好請放心 我們再來有好幾種方式可以來處理這個你有辦法完成就對了你如果今年底一定要完成 完成後你來我幫你鋪地毯我走到那邊跑"},{"start":599.444,"end":601.787,"text":"不用這麼辛苦 但是我一定會努力完成謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1275,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（13時15分）謝謝敬愛的召委。有請衛福部邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長久違了。你在我那邊吃了我8年，當了部長之後都沒有來找過我，這樣有道理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：現在是公僕。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，公僕來，我還是會請你。我今天有幾個問題要來就教邱部長，我想從賴總統到行政院卓院長還有你都非常重視整個偏鄉醫療的補強，這一點我非常肯定，尤其本席在前陣子的總質詢提出臺東馬偕擴建的問題，中央部會也立即啟動協調，排除一些障礙，現在速度也明顯在增加。這個特別要感謝，當然也特別感謝陳瑩委員跟臺東縣政府要了那塊土地。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是以臺東來講的話，臺東倒不是只有臺東市，它還有綠島跟蘭嶼兩個離島，今天的重點就是綠島全島只有一間衛生所，兩個醫生全年無休，一直在輪班，輪流撐住整個綠島的醫療。那兩個醫生負責的是什麼？每個月1,400人次的就診，平均一天大概就有50個人，24小時這樣待命，緊接著他還要看門診，還要跑社區，還有轉診，還有癌症的篩檢，其實是一天當三天用。在觀光季節的時候，旺季時一個月湧入將近4萬的旅客，原本他就要服務四千多個人，旺季的時候又湧入4萬個人。我們再看一些數字，臺東馬偕近4年急診的病患人數增加了1萬，醫師人力本來就吃緊，明年還有急診醫師要退休，未來這種資源是不是撐得下去都沒有把握。部長，我的意思是，像綠島本來是有衛生所的三個醫生，111年一個退休以後，現在剩下兩個，現在臺東馬偕一個月有一位醫生去支援一個禮拜，我看這個狀況，不出事都很困難，這種靠人情、靠義氣的方式撐得了一時，到底能夠撐到多久？臺東衛生局很盡責，也積極在招募區域醫院裡面的醫生去協助，但是每一個區域醫院的急診都到臨界點了，沒人！我要問部長的是，像綠島這樣，我們應該要未雨綢繆，否則這真的會出問題，所以我要拜託你，是不是請部長能夠正面回應？就是我們去檢視一下離島醫師的這些資源來啟動區域人力的媒合，譬如澎湖、金門或者是蘭嶼這些離島，蘭嶼現在是三個，剛剛好，其他是不是有多餘的人力？如果發現有些地方公費醫生人力的配置可能比較充裕，可不可以幫我們協調短期輪調來支援綠島，讓綠島的衛生所至少可以達到基本三位常駐醫師的配置？我不曉得部長的看法。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。臺東的醫療真的是很需要我們一直來關注，有時候還可以，有時候真的是缺乏。真的很感謝莊委員跟陳瑩委員最近協助臺東馬偕醫院解決住宿的問題，我想這是一個mission impossible，但是你們達成了，我想這對留住臺東馬偕醫院醫護同仁的量能是非常關鍵的，在這邊真的非常感佩跟感謝。至於綠島一直都是常常找不到人，綠島這些醫生曾經被患者反映他們不好，覺得太犧牲就離開了，我想全國的山地離島都會面臨這種情況，尤其是離島的問題更是要注意。我覺得我們一定要用盡辦法讓醫師能夠留在那邊，譬如臺東，醫事司可以來看看在地培養公費醫師，過去是這樣子，我有很多學生被分到臺東，就想盡辦法要回臺北，跑得像飛一樣，虧得臺東那些老醫生為了來的這些年輕醫生能留下4年，每天晚上都要去陪他們唱唱歌，連理事長朱建銘也是，好讓他們在那裡生活得很快樂，但結果還是兩年就衝到臺北來了，所以對這些老醫生的心傷害很大。我的意思是如果是住在臺北或哪裡的，你硬叫人家在那裡公費服務……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這代表臺東的狀況部長都知道，代表你全部都瞭解，我現在說的是你在111年3月1號本來要配3個人，現在有1個辭職就少1個人了嘛！我現在不是在替衛生所喊救命，而是在跟你說衛福部、政府有責任喔！我們確實是有責任，所以我剛才第一件說的就是我們來盤整一下其他離島的公費生，倘若還有剩餘的資源，拜託來支援綠島。"],["邱部長泰源：這點我們一定會努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一定可以？"],["邱部長泰源：一定來努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不能只是「一定努力」，如果你努力的成果是零那也是努力，那就是做白工啦！以邱泰源部長努力下去，卻沒有結果，那是笑掉人家的大牙啦！給一個具體承諾，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：感謝莊委員對我的信心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我一直對你有信心的啦！你拍了胸脯保證，不要受傷就好。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好就行了，別再說了。"],["邱部長泰源：一定來拚。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好就好，你跟我說「好」這樣就好。第二個就是蘭嶼也是離島，蘭嶼就有3個，為什麼綠島就只有2個？原因很簡單，你們給的誘因不一樣嘛！譬如到蘭嶼的公費生，1年可以折抵1.5年，綠島就沒有啊！這個制度的設計就讓人家覺得沒有人性化，就不想去啊！醫生也是人，他也很會算耶──我是公費生，去蘭嶼的話，1年可以折抵1.5年，去綠島的話，1年就是1年，他又不是傻子！綠島本來有，可是現在沒有折抵了。"],["邱部長泰源：金門好像也有2比1嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要說的就是只有綠島沒有嘛！你們這個制度就是只有綠島沒有嘛！當然人家就不想去嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：這樣的話去綠島一定要有獎勵啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，一定要獎勵，這樣的話就是兩樣你都答應了。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你兩樣都說好，這樣我就不想再問下去了。"],["邱部長泰源：如果需要修法，我們就來修法或是相關規定，讓當地有人。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣很好，但你知道我現在怕的是什麼嗎？我現在怕的就是這個制度設計，同樣都是離島，兩年後出來900個公費生，可能會解決這個問題，我是怕這兩年裡面離島的狀況有變，尤其是綠島，現在只有兩個醫生，馬偕醫院一個月才去支援一星期，這兩年內如果再有一個醫生辭職的話，這個醫療會崩潰掉，我是提前跟你示警啦！你也認為這個本來就是政府的責任，這不是衛生所在那裡喊「救命喔！我們這裡沒有醫生」，不是的，是原本就有4,000人住在那裡，旅遊旺季時又有4萬人到那裡，這對整個醫療又加重負擔，離島在這個部分本就資源不足。我覺得醫療本來就是基本人權，我們不能碰運氣啦！綠島變成現行制度的漏網之魚，我認為這樣不對。我雖然不用來衛環委員會出席，但我來這裡詢問你是好意，因為你是我的兄弟，你如果沒有把綠島撐起來的話，開什麼玩笑？政府就失職啦！雖然他的地理位置比較是偏在大海……"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定用盡辦法完成任務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，你這不只是承諾而已，現在是拍胸脯保證喔！綠島的健康不要再靠運氣、奇蹟、靠義氣在支撐。好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：不會，會有一個良好的制度。請放心，我們有好幾種方式可以來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你有辦法完成就對了，今年底一定要給我完成，完成之後，你來了我給你鋪地毯、放炮。"],["邱部長泰源：不用那麼「工夫」，但是我一定會努力完成。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一定完成喔！謝謝部長，謝謝，這樣就好，這就是我想聽到的。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，他從屏東管到臺東去了。不過小琉球也有加成，這個要通盤檢討。部長拍胸脯拍到淤青了吧！","林楚茵委員改提書面質詢。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","林德福委員改提書面質詢。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc05d94f33743e1ec504d63fb5309bb2e637bdb191357f7ebfac53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"13:05:35 - 13:15:23","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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抱歉按到了"},{"start":90.114,"end":114.884,"text":"好就是說我們在這個台北市跟桃園市跟其他地方完全不一樣因為接受人你看新北市喔或者是台中市喔他接受早療人數會接近通報人數可是我們台北市跟桃園市竟然只有10%那這是什麼樣子的原因呢那第二個疑點是嘉義市宜蘭縣澎湖縣接受早療的人數竟然大於通報人數欸"},{"start":117.852,"end":139.263,"text":"這個應該是要通報之後經過評估才可以接受找療嘛 對吧流程上應該是這樣可是怎麼會出現這樣子的數字第三個接受找療服務的人次竟然只有人數的一倍多代表是說他回去再做找療的頻率是低的嗎我是應該這樣解讀嗎是不是可以簡單 誰來幫我做個簡單的說明我應該如何讀這份報告這個數字"},{"start":149.02,"end":151.304,"text":"還是現在沒有人可以回答我這個問題好沒關係我時間有限 好不好我們會後再來我辦公室我們再來瞭解一下這個數據齁這個數據你們自己看不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":164.023,"end":192.848,"text":"對吧 很奇怪吧 還有第二個問題第二個數據 我也覺得很奇怪就是我們在看聯平中心跟聯平提供量的時候呢台北市加速在減少 可是提供量在增加桃園加速在增加 可是聯平量卻在減少然後新竹市呢加速持平 可是聯平提供量減少這個我就有點不太懂 照理講我應該提供的加速變多我應該相對來說 我的服務量應該是增加的吧"},{"start":194.582,"end":196.083,"text":"這邊還是是謝謝委員那這個是你看到這是他們縣市提出來的我們預估給他的那以新竹市為例我幾個例子它同樣是兩家但是呢114年114年是1700沒有錯那114年呢原來一家叫1100現在新增了一家台大就是再1100所以新竹市就會變成2200"},{"start":224.915,"end":242.136,"text":"所以我想我應該怎麼讀這個資料呢?因為這樣子看起來,如果這個是這樣子算,假設它是2200你們沒有記到的話,那其他的數字是正確的嗎?這個我們要對一下,因為其他的是2200這個是不是也可以回去確認一下好不好?提供到我辦公室好不好?這大概什麼時候可以提供給我?好,謝謝大概什麼時候可以提供給我?一塊,很快"},{"start":245.203,"end":258.882,"text":"儘快大概一個禮拜內一個禮拜以內好不好我們一個禮拜我們約個時間順便來說明一下剛剛那些疑點好不好因為這樣子我們很難去評估到底藻寮的量能到底有沒有增加啦好不好然後再來還有下一頁好像沒有反應"},{"start":260.043,"end":288.1,"text":"那還有就是說其實我們也大概看了一下剛剛那些數字我大概用現在你給我的數字我加總了一下大概六都集中了75%的評估中心和機構可是我根據桃園市2023年的一個報告調查他說桃園市發展實緩的兒童通報這五年的統計分析之下呢復興區這個復興區三歲以下的兒童通報率只有都會區的40%也就是說我們偏鄉的能夠去做這些評估的"},{"start":288.921,"end":292.393,"text":"或是有這個意識的其實相對來說是低的下一頁"},{"start":294.611,"end":318.38,"text":"那這個其實也有一些報告啦有些專家學者也提出到了就是我們偏鄉區域的找療的一個困境第一個就是醫療與療癒資源集中於都會區嘛剛剛講75%然後通報與篩檢率也都偏低因為目前其實他們對於這樣子的一個概念早期介入的概念相對來說是稍微比較弱的那社區也宣導不足所以就會有造成很多的孩子在他們沒有被早期發現就錯過了這個黃金期這樣子"},{"start":321.161,"end":348.137,"text":"那再來還有就是說我們第三點是在於專業人力跟服務量人不足啦就是其實我們有非常短缺我想這個部長跟大家一定都非常清楚我們的語言治療師 職能治療師其實比例都是相當不夠的這個其實還是非常需要一起來努力的那最後就是一個家庭負擔沉重的問題就是說因為其實他們以他們的交通啦剛來講他如果要從復興區要去到可以坐的地方要花兩個小時"},{"start":349.338,"end":357.008,"text":"家庭有經濟的困難 交通又不那麼方便其實坦白來說 要他回去做這件事情 難度是非常高的但是呢 我也 幫我按下一頁"},{"start":358.905,"end":387.092,"text":"但是第三基金會其實長期一直以來他們在偏鄉服務他們其實有一些成功的經驗就是說他們其實很早的時候在孩子還在媽媽的肚子裡的時候他們就有育兒指導員來協助這些家長提升這個孩子需要做早期介入療癒的一個意識所以呢我想請教這個部長就是賴清德總統其實當時有提出要這個育兒指導員到家的這個一個政見嘛"},{"start":387.512,"end":399.205,"text":"那我們現在大概準備的怎麼樣?規劃的怎麼樣?我想這個至善基金會在這樣做,是令人感動也很好的典範其實剛剛委員講的,應該全國都有在做"},{"start":403.744,"end":420.804,"text":"育兒指導員的部分現在準備了怎麼樣跟委員報告其實在社網第二期從108年開始我們大概就已經開始在全國都有部件這樣一個育兒指導服務那在這個原來計畫裡面他是優先提供服務給這些比較相對比較脆弱的家庭"},{"start":421.405,"end":442.287,"text":"那我們現在正在規劃下一期的社安網的計畫那我們也會把這個已經很確定的方向會把育兒指導的服務的量能持續的來做擴充然後目標是針對不管他是不是隨後家庭只要家庭有需要我們一律的來提供這樣的服務我們是不是也可以因為我不太確定你們下一期的部件是不是也包含到偏鄉的部分因為其實偏鄉現在都很靠"},{"start":443.228,"end":458.894,"text":"那大概什麼時候會我們下一期社交網會從明年開始那目前我們的計畫已經開始在整理當中整理當中是嗎整理全國只要六歲以下的兒童有相關需要的育兒指導我們大概我們會把量整個都擴充出來"},{"start":459.722,"end":480.702,"text":"所以我們是針對6歲以下還是他今天是還在爸爸媽媽肚子裡的時候就6歲以下的兒童的育兒指導但我只在想說因為我們其實偏鄉只到6歲有沒有可能再更早一點來去協助他們呢這部分有可能再提早嗎可能在他就是懷孕的時候因為智商的做法是這樣"},{"start":483.284,"end":491.092,"text":"跟委員報告一下,有關孕產婦如果是有高風險的孕產婦,我們是有孕產婦的關懷計畫,另外一個處理的,高風險孕產婦的最終關懷計畫"},{"start":496.735,"end":518.38,"text":"好沒關係那這個我們事後下次也是一起來討論看他可以怎麼樣執行那最後最後很快就是說我們其實下一頁好了下一頁好了我們其實剛剛講到就是說今天要做早期介入的話其實也是非常需要我們要有足夠的語言治療師跟職能治療師可是以我們現在來說台灣跟世界來比台灣現在語言治療師每一萬人我們大概就0.58個這個"},{"start":521.422,"end":537.112,"text":"這個原治療師他的服務量只有0.58人那美國是有3.3人那職能治療師呢每萬人的服務量台灣是1.49可是美國是4.9我們現在是不是有一些我們可不可以嚴領一些方案怎麼樣子來提升我們這個原治療師跟職能治療師的人數呢"},{"start":538.938,"end":557.587,"text":"我想我們先瞭解一下,到底為什麼我們台灣人比較少?是科系培養的比較少?還是考照率太難了?還是說已經考過了他不來上班?或者是別人認不好?"},{"start":558.647,"end":585.483,"text":"那所以你們現在會簡單做一個這個我們 既然今天聽起來這個是非常這些專業人員是很需要的我們就要好好來檢討一下好 那大概什麼時候我們可以有一個更明確的不然是檢討啦 或是下一個方案議事室議事室好 這個請議事室一個月之內把它盤點好盤點以下可以嗎然後我們來看看下一步我們怎麼做好不好謝謝再跟委員報告一個月齁 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1230,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時5分）我們有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天想跟你討論關於早療的部分，就是早療資源的部分，因為根據世界衛生組織來講，我們兒童發展遲緩的發生率大概是8%，但是臺灣的本土研究是說因為篩檢工具不足，實際的發生率可能是8%到10%。我們就取中間值去算了一下全國潛在的需求人數，大概是13.16萬人。但是以我現在最新拿到的資料，2024年通報的是3.9萬人，也就是說現在還未通報比率大概是70.3%。然後再進一步就發現了一些細節的資料，也是我想要跟部長再討論一下的。我知道我們去年其實有去擴大補助全國兒童發展聯合評估中心，所以我們的量能是在提升，但是我在看這個資料的時候有發現幾個疑點，我希望部長可以幫我簡單說明一下。","第一個疑點，我們看到臺北市跟桃園市通報的人數中只有10%是早療人數，就是說臺北市跟桃園市跟其他地方完全不一樣，你看新北市或者是臺中市，接受早療人數會接近通報人數，可是臺北市跟桃園市竟然只有10%，這是什麼樣子的原因呢？第二個疑點，嘉義市、宜蘭縣、澎湖縣接受早療的人數竟然大於通報人數，應該是要通報之後經過評估才可以接受早療嘛？對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員雅琳：流程上應該是這樣，可是怎麼會出現這樣的數字？第三個，接受早療服務的人次竟然只有人數的一倍多，代表說他回去再做早療的頻率是低的嗎？我是應該這樣解讀嗎？誰可以來幫我做個簡單的說明？我應該如何讀這份報告、這個數字？還是現在沒有人可以回答我這個問題？好，沒關係，我時間有限，會後再來我們辦公室釐清吧！你們這樣子……"],["邱部長泰源：我們再來瞭解一下這個數據。"],["張委員雅琳：這個數據你們自己看不會覺得很奇怪嗎？對吧？很奇怪吧！","還有第二個數據我也覺得很奇怪，就是我們在看聯評中心跟聯評提供量的時候，臺北市家數在減少，可是提供量在增加；桃園家數在增加，可是聯評量卻在減少。然後新竹市家數持平，可是聯評提供量減少。這個我就有點不太懂，照理講，提供的家數變多，相對來說服務量能應該是增加的吧？"],["邱部長泰源：這個聯評中心……"],["吳署長昭軍：謝謝委員，你看到的這個是他們縣市提出來，還有我們預估給它的。我以新竹市為例，同樣是兩家，114年是1,700，沒有錯，114年原來一家要1,100，現在新增了一家台大，就是再1,100，所以新竹市就會變成2,200。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我應該怎麼讀這個資料呢？因為這樣子看起來，如果這個是這樣子算，假設它是2,200，你們沒有計算到的話，那其他的數字是正確的嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：這個我們要對一下。"],["張委員雅琳：這個是不是回去也可以確認一下，好不好？提供到我辦公室，好不好？這大概什麼時候可以提供給我？"],["吳署長昭軍：好，盡快，大概一個禮拜內給你。"],["張委員雅琳：一個禮拜，好不好？我們約個時間，順便來說明一下剛剛那些疑點，好不好？因為這樣子我們很難去評估到底早療的量能到底有沒有增加，好不好？"],["吳署長昭軍：好，我們會去說明。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，其實我們也大概看了一下剛剛那些數字，我用現在你給我的數字加總了一下，六都集中了75%的評估中心和機構，可是我根據桃園市2023年的一個調查報告，有關桃園市發展遲緩兒童通報5年統計分析，復興區3歲以下的兒童通報率只有都會區的40%，也就是偏鄉能夠去做這些評估的或是有這個意識的，其實相對來說是低的。這個其實也有一些報告，有些專家學者也指出偏鄉區域早療的困境，第一個就是醫療與療育資源集中於都會區，如同剛剛講的75%，然後通報與篩檢率也都偏低，因為目前他們對於早期介入這樣的概念，相對來說是稍微比較弱的，然後社區也宣導不足，所以就會造成很多這樣的孩子沒有被早期發現，也就錯過了治療黃金期。第三點是在於專業人力跟服務量不足，其實我們非常短缺，我想部長跟大家一定都非常清楚語言治療師與職能治療師比例都是相當不夠的，還是非常需要一起來努力的。最後一個就是家庭負擔沉重的問題，因為以他們的交通而言，誠如剛剛所講的，他如果要從復興區去可以治療的地方就要花兩個小時，家庭有經濟的困難、交通又不方便，坦白說，要他回去做這件事情其實難度是非常高的。但是至善基金會長期以來一直在偏鄉服務，他們有一些成功的經驗，在很早的時候、在孩子還在媽媽肚子裡的時候，他們就由育兒指導員來協助這些家長提升孩子需要早期介入療育的意識。我想請教部長，賴清德總統當時有提出要育兒指導員到家的政見，你們現在大概準備、規劃得怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我想至善基金會這樣做事令人感動，也是很好的典範，其實剛剛委員講的，全國應該都有在做，只是……"],["張委員雅琳：育兒指導員的部分現在準備得怎麼樣？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，其實在社安網第二期從108年開始，我們大概就已經開始在全國布建這樣的育兒指導服務，在原來的計畫裡面是優先提供服務給這些相對比較脆弱的家庭，我們現在正在規劃下一期的社安網計畫，那我們也會朝這個已經很確定的方向，把育兒指導服務的量能持續地擴充，目標是針對不管是不是脆弱家庭，只要家庭有需要，我們一定會提供這樣的服務。"],["張委員雅琳：我們是不是也可以……因為我不太確定你們下一期的布建是不是也包含到偏鄉，其實偏鄉現在都非常……"],["周代理署長道君：都會含、都會含。"],["張委員雅琳：那大概什麼時候會……"],["周代理署長道君：我們下一期社安網會從明年開始，目前我們的計畫已經開始在整理當中，就是針對全國只要6歲以下的兒童有相關育兒指導的需要，我們會把量能都擴充出來。"],["張委員雅琳：所以是針對6歲以下，還是他還在爸爸媽媽肚子裡的時候？"],["周代理署長道君：6歲以下兒童的育兒指導。"],["張委員雅琳：但我是想說只到6歲的話，在偏鄉有沒有可能再更早一點去協助他們呢？這部分有可能再提早嗎？可能在媽媽懷孕的時候，因為至善基金會的作法是這樣。"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告一下，有關孕產婦，如果他是有高風險的孕產婦，我們是有孕產婦的關懷計畫，另外處理。"],["張委員雅琳：孕產婦的？"],["吳署長昭軍：對，高風險孕產婦的追蹤關懷計畫。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，這個我們下次也一起來討論看可以怎麼樣執行。","最後，我們剛剛講到今天要做早療、早期介入的話，其實也是非常需要、要有足夠的語言治療師跟職能治療師，可是以我們現在來說，臺灣跟世界來比，臺灣現在的語言治療師每1萬人大概就0.58個語言治療師，其服務量只有0.58人；美國是有3.3人。職能治療師的部分，每萬人的服務量，臺灣是1.49，可是美國是4.9。我們現在是不是可以研擬一些方案看看如何提升語言治療師跟職能治療師的人數呢？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們先了解一下到底為什麼臺灣會比較少？是大學科系培養出來的比較少，還是考照率太難了？還是說已經考過了，他不來上班？或者是留任不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，那所以你們現在會簡單檢討……"],["邱部長泰源：既然今天聽起來，這些專業人員是很需要的，我們就要好好來檢討一下。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候我們可以有更明確的，不管是檢討或是方案？"],["邱部長泰源：好，醫事司還是人事司？請醫事司一個月之內把它盤點好了。"],["張委員雅琳：盤點一下，可以嗎？再來看看下一步我們要怎麼做，好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：再跟委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：一個月，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員、謝謝部長。","接續請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc02b602349eb396d704d63fb5309bb2e637bdb191357f7ebfae70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:53:07 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謝謝委員那我這邊可能先跟委員說明一下對於照專的目前的這個核定額度的這件事情好 我們回到上一章你要跟我講核定額度好 來核定額度這件事情可以看得出來從112年跟113年其實整個各縣市的人數都有拉高那就是因為我們在112年發現這個人數的計算上過往在2.0是用150案這樣的方式去算可是事實上沒有辦法回應到地方真正的一個狀況"},{"start":323.796,"end":341.733,"text":"對 所以我們就是讓在照專核定上面是尊重由地方政府我們跟他們共同討論出來每一個照專一天的工作量會做一些什麼樣的工作內容那每一項事情不包括委員剛剛關注到的一些交通的所耗費的時間跟評估會來打記錄的時間這些都跟地方政府共同討論出來之後"},{"start":346.878,"end":365.211,"text":"把那样一个计算人力的所耗的时间算出来之后回到他们自己的一个考量需要多少不在意案件数不再去看案件数所以113年的这些造砖的核定数都是由尊重地方政府按照这样的一个耗时的计算"},{"start":366.031,"end":391.846,"text":"報上來他的需求數那今天問題出現的是因為趙正我們在12年也把他從臨時人員納為政府的聘僱人員是所以他們現在的一個勞動權益是更有保障可是因為一旦納為政府的聘僱人員他就是跟工人一樣他今天不管你佔什麼樣的這個新等職位其實從台北一路到屏東薪資待遇是一樣的"},{"start":392.847,"end":410.465,"text":"這是公務人員的一個目前我們的人事機關的規範的一個要求就是這樣那所以現階段會有這些都會區人員流動比較大就是因為目前的這個薪資待遇對都會區比較缺乏競爭力可是我們"},{"start":411.265,"end":437.432,"text":"過半的縣市其他的人員的禁用其實是穩定的那我們全國的平均大概是照專這邊有78%就是扣除一些流動的那事實上可是已經有超過10個縣市他的禁用率其實非常的穩定甚至有100%那高於這個有10個縣市都高於九成所以他的流動率其實不高最嚴重的就是在這個雙北是"},{"start":439.372,"end":460.774,"text":"所以其實你是知道問題的嘛但是我請教你一個事情你說這是跟地方政府討論後大家共同討論對不對然後他們爆出這個數目那我想問一下這些所謂的政府聘僱人員享有政府的相關勞動權利的保障的這些人他們的薪資是中央跟地方怎麼分工"},{"start":461.955,"end":475.711,"text":"這個薪資是我們用312薪點來來企算然後7級就是照專進來之後他可以有每年調薪的這個機制只要烤雞甲等是往上調的機制"},{"start":476.892,"end":498.699,"text":"所以現在312新點也按照我們衛福部目前的這些折合率其實一點是135元那我們近期也看到社安網那邊也有福利服務中心的社工其實的新點有拉高到140所以我們現在也在努力朝比照這部分能夠把新點再拉高重點是我問你這個錢是誰出的啦"},{"start":503.261,"end":514.568,"text":"錢的部分是中央主要負責然後地方政府是按照我們的財力分級分3到5 財力分級3到5是3%然後二級是5%一級是一成那也就是說最多那我舉個例子六都應該都是算財務狀況好的那所以地方政府的負擔大概就是一成最多一成台北市一成台北市一成那所以90%是你們出的是"},{"start":530.399,"end":537.993,"text":"是哇如果是這樣那之後因為前一輪的預算的亂象回到這件事情有沒有影響"},{"start":540.065,"end":567.219,"text":"還是你還沒有辦法評估出來因為財化法之後長照基金這邊的收入也會有短收尤其是防疫合一稅那市長我認為這件事情非同小可大概不是我們一次諮詢完就可以解決的事情如果他又因為財化法會影響到後續中央跟地方的分別必須要支付這個預算的比例的話我認為我們要從長計議不能讓地方的這些照專"},{"start":568.039,"end":585.373,"text":"他们的过量的工作量然后导致于后面所有申请需要长照2.0服务的这些民众受到影响我认为他们现在是卯足了力在服务所有有需求的民众但是确实你刚刚说了只有超过只有10都左右的"},{"start":586.253,"end":612.983,"text":"在殖旅是穩定的也就是說14個縣市只有14個縣市就是過半過半的縣市那那些loading很重的縣市我認為我們還是要回過頭來解決所以這一塊我們其實也在跟人事單位在討論有沒有一些可以因為約聘僱人就是要按照人事總部規範我認同我沒有要破壞你們的薪資結構的法規範他沒有辦法額外再給任何的津貼"},{"start":613.823,"end":633.428,"text":"我都知道但是我們要解決嘛所以不管是從錢的方向來解決還是有什麼特別的條款可以來解決還是我來問啦每一個人平均按量要不要做調整還有不要只涵蓋率跟按量作為KPI各地的狀況必須因地制宜我這邊有寫了還有有沒有按量管制SOP的可能"},{"start":633.988,"end":656.484,"text":"然後我們如何掌握第一線的人力狀況因為如果按照司長你剛剛信誓旦旦的說超過14個縣市的在職率是穩定的可是為什麼我們辦公室之前跟你們問服務要資料的時候是要不到的你們不給我們還是你們根本沒有統計還是我們問了你們才整理出來我不確定但是看起來對於第一線人力的掌握它並不能只丟給地方政府"},{"start":656.684,"end":676.332,"text":"因為如果地方政府在這件事情上也沒有太有積極的作為我認為那你們又是出錢的人你們應該更要去協助這些地方上工作的照管專員他們的工作狀況會是好的好嗎就是沒問題現在就是其實最大困境像台北市它的禁用率我們的了解大概不到一半"},{"start":676.892,"end":691.432,"text":"所以他的負責人那你要想不到一半原因就是很簡單因為這個loading太重嘛我認為啦不是他聘不到人聘不到人阿為什麼這台北市聘不到人那他們也想要用他們的一些錢去給可是整個政府的規定是不允許"},{"start":692.574,"end":720.057,"text":"那我們看起來需要中央跟地方坐下來一起想辦法所以這個可能人事的法規可能需要合法好 那我們一起努力那我要提醒你們其實也有人告訴我們因為現在長照四包錢全部都是要打進這個電話去申請但是有沒有必要來簡化這個流程或者是不必要都是他們來承擔我認為這個實質的工作內容我們可能也可以來討論是 也跟委員報告1966這支專線不是照專在接的其實我們另外還有給他們行政人力"},{"start":721.206,"end":733.446,"text":"好所以看起來你們真的已經做了很多努力可是在第一線的工作狀態真的還是很差你認同嗎對其實你是清楚的是是好那我們一起來努力我們會一起再來跟人事總處我們辦公室會再持續追蹤這個議題好謝謝司長謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1176,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時53分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部部長跟長照司，長照司有來嘛？好，司長，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長好。部長，我是請司長上來回答問題，但你聽聽看，因為這個問題事情很大條。部長，你前一陣子說長照3.0要納入癌末、腦中風、外籍等三大對象擴大辦理，我認為這是德政，很好，我們非常期待3.0的部分，但是現在2.0出現了一個問題，我不確定長照司有沒有跟您反映，就是關於長照專員在接電話這件事情。我們可以看到你們的計畫裡面寫的是，每一個照管員（就是照顧管理專員）服務量是150個到200個配置照管專員一名，但是實際上我們看到現在所有在網路上，他們自己就是當事人，就是每天在做這些事情的照顧管理專員他們說，他們的案量遠遠超過你們當時的規劃，常常每一個人要負擔300案、500案，甚至有人到600案、到900案都有，而且我們辦公室就接到非常多的陳情。","我們看一下衛福部當時的設計是這樣，部長，我現在把右邊這個框起來是在2024年12月平均每一個照管員手上所負擔的專案，從新北的272、臺北的183，部長你一定會說，沒有啊，這看起來還好嘛，以嘉義來說來到313，你可能也覺得好像只有超出一點點，可是部長你往回頭看前面兩欄，113年12月的照專人數例如說新北市230、臺北市244、桃園市142，這個是你們核定的員額喔，可是實際上因為他的工作量太大，薪水太低，常常加班，以臺北市為例，他就沒有聘足244，這樣你聽懂我的意思嗎？所以平均每人案量這個漂亮的數字是假的，就是說以臺北市為例，法定的錢可以讓他聘244，桃園市可以聘142，臺中可以聘221，可是因為他聘不到，所以每一個照管員所服務的案量遠超過現在這個統計數字，也就是從數字的背後我們看見更多的是照管員的辛苦跟辛酸。","我們看一下他們在做哪些事情，他們接到電話之後要在一日內電訪，兩日內完成家訪，然後計畫擬定報告撰寫，甚至遇到緊急的案子，還要在8小時內完成訪視，在一天以內評估完成，然後照管員才把這個案子交給A個管做後續的工作。A個管一樣，工作量都爆量。新的案子他們的評估家訪時間是90分鐘，舊案每年複評一次是60分鐘，可是，部長，我們要去做家訪對不對，要交通來回的時間，回來要趕快寫報告、做評估然後趕快交出去，而且我們的法定規定他們要在四天內完成，可是我剛剛說他的資料還要交給A個管，假設我們留給A個管兩天的時間，然後照管專員兩天的時間，他一天可以完成三案是極限喔。","所以他們的薪水非常低，扣掉勞健保，現在大部分的人薪水是在4萬塊以下，而且工時非常長，導致流動率非常非常高，這是現在的慘況。有這麼慘的陳情，我們做了非常多的研究，我跟部長報告，我們去問過衛福部知不知道各縣市政府照管專員現在的離職率、狀態如何，答案是沒有數字。因為我猜想，這個經費應該是撥給地方政府之後，衛福部就只收相關的數字，對不對？成案的數字啦，然後協助完成長照2.0申請的數字啦，但是我們並不真的知道基層的工作人員發生了什麼事情。","為什麼我要在這裡幫他們追這件事？因為部長，當人員一再地流動離職，要進來申請長照的所有人，包含我們辦公室過去一直在關注的特教生，然後身心障礙的朋友們，他們所必須要申請的長照後面就會卡住，因為前端處理的人不夠嘛，所以，部長，怎麼辦？所以我請長照司。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員提這個說實在我們也很關心的事情，請司長來回應一下。"],["祝司長健芳：謝謝委員，我這邊先跟委員說明一下，對於照專目前的核定額度這件事。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們回到上一張，你要跟我講核定額度，好，來。"],["祝司長健芳：是。核定額度這件事情可以看得出來，從112年跟113年其實各縣市的人數都有拉高，就是因為我們在112年發現在人數的計算上，過往在2.0是用150案這樣的方式去算，可是事實上沒有辦法回應地方真正的狀況……"],["陳委員培瑜：實際上的需求量非常大。"],["祝司長健芳：對，所以我們在照專核定上是尊重地方政府，我們跟他們共同討論出來，每一個照專一天的工作量會做什麼樣的工作內容，然後每一項事情，包括委員剛剛關注的交通所耗費的時間跟評估回來打紀錄的時間等等，都跟地方政府共同討論出來，把照管員處理個案所耗時間算出來之後，回歸由地方政府自己考量需要多少人力，不再去看案件數，所以113年照專人員的核定數，都是尊重地方政府按照這樣的耗時的計算，報上來各自的需求數。","今天會出現問題是因為，我們在112年也把照專從臨時人員納為政府的聘僱人員，現在他們的勞動權益固然更有保障，可是因為一旦納為政府的聘僱人員，就跟公務人員一樣，今天不管占什麼樣的薪等職位，從臺北一路到屏東薪資待遇都是一樣的。目前公務人員人事機關的規範、要求就是這樣，所以現階段都會區的人員流動率會比較大，就是因為目前的薪資待遇對於都會區比較缺乏競爭力，可是過半縣市的人員進用其實是穩定的，全國的平均來講，照專有78%，就是扣除一些流動的，但已經有超過10個縣市的進用率其實是非常的穩定，甚至有百分之百，有10個縣市都高於九成，所以它的流動率不高，最嚴重的就是在雙北。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，所以你是知道問題的嘛！但是我請教你一件事，你說這是跟地方政府討論後、大家共同討論，然後他們報出這個數目。"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我想問一下，這些所謂的政府聘僱人員、享有政府相關勞動權利保障這些人的薪資，中央跟地方是怎麼分工？"],["祝司長健芳：這個薪資我們是用312薪點來起算，然後7級，就是照專進來之後，只要考績甲等，有每年可以調薪、往上調的機制。現在312薪點按照衛福部目前這些折合率，其實1點是135元。我們近期也看到社安網有福利服務中心的社工薪點拉高到140元，所以我們現在也在努力，好比照這部分，能夠把薪點再拉高。"],["陳委員培瑜：重點是我問你，這個錢是誰出的？"],["祝司長健芳：錢的部分是中央主要負責，然後地方政府是按照財力分級，財力分級三到五級是3%、然後二級是5%，一級是一成。不過後續也會因為財劃法的關係……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我舉個例子，六都應該都是算財務狀況好的，所以地方政府的負擔大概就是一成、最多一成？"],["祝司長健芳：臺北市一成、新北市5%。"],["陳委員培瑜：臺北市一成，所以90%是你們出的？"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：哇！如果是這樣，因為前一輪的預算亂象，之後回到這件事情有沒有影響？還是你還沒有辦法評估出來？"],["祝司長健芳：因為財劃法之後，長照基金的收入也會有短收，尤其是房地合一稅，所以這個部分也會有影響。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，司長，我認為這件事情非同小可，大概不是我們一次質詢完就可以解決的事情。如果又因為財劃法會影響到後續中央跟地方分別必須要支付這個預算比例的話，我認為我們要從長計議，不能讓地方這些照專過量的工作量導致後面所有申請需要長照2.0服務的民眾受到影響。我認為他們現在是卯足了力在服務所有有需求的民眾，但是你剛剛說了，確實只有超過10都左右的在職率是穩定的……"],["祝司長健芳：14個縣市是穩定的。"],["陳委員培瑜：14個縣市，好，只有14個縣市……"],["祝司長健芳：就是過半、過半的縣市。"],["陳委員培瑜：那些loading很重的縣市，我認為我們還要回過頭來解決。"],["祝司長健芳：所以這一塊我們其實也在跟人事單位討論有沒有一些可以……因為約聘僱人員就是要按照人事總處規範的……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，我認同，我沒有要破壞你們的薪資結構的法規範。"],["祝司長健芳：它沒有辦法額外再給任何的津貼。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我都知道，但是我們要解決，所以不管是從錢的方向來解決，還是有什麼特別的條款可以來解決，每一個人的平均案量要不要調整？還有不要只以涵蓋率跟案量來計算KPI，各地的狀況必須因地制宜，我這邊有寫了，還有，有沒有按量管制SOP的可能？然後我們如何掌握第一線的人力狀況？因為如果按照司長剛剛信誓旦旦說超過14個縣市的在職率是穩定的，可是為什麼我們辦公室之前跟衛福部要資料的時候是要不到的？你們不給我們，是你們根本沒有統計？還是我們問了你們才整理出來？我不確定，但是看起來對於第一線人力的掌握，並不能只丟給地方政府，因為如果地方政府在這件事情上也沒有太有積極的作為，你們又是出錢的人，那我認為你們更應該要去協助這些地方上工作的照管專員，他們的工作狀況才會是好的，好嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：這是沒問題，現在最大的困境是，像臺北市的進用率，就我們的瞭解大概不到一半，所以它的負責……"],["陳委員培瑜：那你要去想它不到一半的原因，很簡單，我認為是因為loading太重。"],["祝司長健芳：不是，它聘不到人。"],["陳委員培瑜：聘不到人？為什麼在北市聘不到人？"],["祝司長健芳：他們也想要用他們的一些錢去給，可是整個政府的規定是不允許的。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我們看起來是需要中央跟地方坐下來一起想辦法囉？"],["祝司長健芳：這個可能人事的法規必須要修法……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們一起努力。那我要提醒你們，其實也有人告訴我們，因為現在長照四包錢全部都是要打進這個電話去申請，但是有沒有必要來簡化這個流程或者是不必要都是他們來承擔，我認為這個實質的工作內容，我們可能也可以來討論。"],["祝司長健芳：也跟委員報告，「1966」這支專線不是照專在接的，其實我們另外還有給他們行政人力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以看起來你們真的已經做了很多努力，可是在第一線的工作狀態真的還是很差，對嗎？你認同嗎？","其實你是清楚的。"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們一起來努力。"],["祝司長健芳：我們會一起來跟人事總處……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們辦公室會再持續追蹤這個議題。謝謝司長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160572","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160572","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc07619b6d638be9367a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謝謝主席那我們是有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長司法院刑事廳廳長也請好 部長以及副秘書長 廳長"},{"start":22.833,"end":47.012,"text":"那事實上我上一次來司法委員會就是在講關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪然後無法被重判這件事情事實上我已經在上一次的諮詢我們知道法務部的立場法務部還是希望車手是共犯嘛至少也是幫助犯所以必須基於現在規定的打詐的專法他是需要被重判的"},{"start":47.532,"end":61.137,"text":"但是看起來實務上判不重那判不重咧現在就產生了一個原因就是說因為基於這個詐欺危害防治條例然後有說你自白而且繳交犯罪所得的話就可以減刑"},{"start":62.099,"end":79.223,"text":"那因為自白可以繳交犯罪所得,結果變成詐騙集團的車手咧主要有一個一貫性的說法,就是說我被抓到六號,我可能會說我是出犯好,出犯當然就已經有減刑了那也有可能會說咧,我不罰所得,我這案子我當詐騙五十萬我說我就賺一萬而已,我就遭這罪,去拿我賺一萬塊"},{"start":89.045,"end":115.857,"text":"那我的不法所得到底是五十萬還是一萬這件事情看起來現在司法院有朝向要把他認定一萬是不法所得甚至有些車手還大辣的說我沒有拿到所以我沒有不法所得所以他也不用繳交不法所得然後他卻後來卻得到了一個輕判所以我們看到現在好多車手可能紅牌六個月可能紅牌幾個月"},{"start":118.078,"end":135.891,"text":"吵吵就了事了那我知道我們現在司法院5月14號還要針對這個不罰所得的認定然後要開會討論那我現在感受到的法院是不是要朝向不罰所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看"},{"start":137.572,"end":159.688,"text":"那我想要問一下我們司法院的態度在這個事情上我們大家對於打詐這麼重要而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手因為只有車手他才會實際出現所以整個檢調警察的一個辦案要怎麼把這個車手抓起來然後由車手來自白後順藤摸瓜才能破獲詐騙集團"},{"start":161.209,"end":173.723,"text":"或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流結果看起來車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐的最後的一個難關我認為司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢"},{"start":174.684,"end":200.502,"text":"好 那個謝謝委員垂尋關心這件事情那首先第一個跟那個委員報告就是說因為司法院主責的是司法行政那有關於說在個案中法律怎麼適用這個是屬於法官的那個權責那司法院沒有辦法 就是這不是我們全國我當然知道說個案有個案法官但是我們這一件已經有法官去申請這個大法庭的統一解釋"},{"start":202.643,"end":219.613,"text":"所以這個統一解釋完以後就會拘束很多法官他們的裁量權嘛所以我現在也在 我也會玩樂啦這個解釋會怎麼發展說真的我不知道但是我們司法院的立場我們到底認為詐騙集團這個車手應該要重判還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會"},{"start":227.762,"end":249.702,"text":"那個跟那個委員報告一下就是說有關於那個法律的那個適用呢就是在那個法院端的那個最高法院他事實上是因為審計制度構造的關係就是所以說他最後那個權威性事實上是在那個大法庭他所做的這個解釋啊然後目前"},{"start":251.063,"end":279.739,"text":"因為就是法律的適用在法官之間有分歧就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚就是有法官他主張說是個別的犯罪那有些是主張說是全部的要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑那因為現在就是因為有產生的歧義所以說那個大法庭剛剛辯論終結完那定在五月的時候會做一個宣判做一個統一大法庭要宣判了啦但是我要跟司法院我還是要呼籲啦"},{"start":280.419,"end":303.804,"text":"事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候我們都太重視被告也就是車手這個人我們卻忽略了被害者當被害者他被詐騙50萬、100萬這件事情車手所參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、100萬啊怎麼可能車手他所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬50萬、100萬、100萬都可以這個跟我們老百姓"},{"start":310.943,"end":329.215,"text":"認為的詐騙的一個要件這個當然涉及不法所得的計算但是我覺得我們司法院還是要到底站在什麼本位在思考這件事被告人權很重要但是被害者他的損失我認為這是更重要的"},{"start":330.095,"end":349.356,"text":"所以不法所得的這一個認定上,到底他這人就被詐騙,那不要說詐騙集團,這些詐騙集團可能外靠黨騙了我,那你不可以讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團,可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中,他的不法所得,就一定是被騙的總額嘛"},{"start":353.969,"end":367.779,"text":"我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官只是說我要透過這個機會 我覺得要講給社會聽因為只有社會形成壓力 法官也許才聽得見不然我們每個人 我們又沒辦法跟法官對話"},{"start":369.67,"end":387.552,"text":"那法官也有他的一個認識用法可是我看檢察官不這麼認為檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判然後被不法所得我看起來檢察官都有上訴但是就要去讀法官這個法官可能比較站在被告這個法官怎樣讀法官就這樣這樣不好"},{"start":389.878,"end":405.107,"text":"我們現在打詐是台灣一個很重要的一個課題那這個課題不能把打詐都讓基層的警員 基層的檢察官 時尚法官也是扮演很重要的一環 好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1294,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時58分）謝謝主席。有請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長，也請司法院刑事廳廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，午安。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長以及副秘書長、廳長好。事實上，我上一次來司法委員會就是在講，關於現在詐騙集團車手犯罪無法被重判這件事情。我已經在上一次質詢知道法務部的立場，法務部還是希望車手是共犯，不然至少也是幫助犯，基於現在規定的打詐專法，他是需要被重判的，但是看起來實務上判不重。判不重就產生了一個狀況，因為基於詐欺危害防制條例有說，自白而且繳交犯罪所得就可以減刑。因為自白且繳交犯罪所得可以減刑，結果變成詐騙集團的車手有一個一貫性的說法，就是被抓到之後，我可能會說我是初犯，初犯當然就已經有減刑了。也有可能會說，我不法所得，這個案子我詐騙了50萬，我就賺1萬而已，我跑這一趟去拿，只有賺1萬塊，那我的不法所得到底是50萬還是1萬？這件事情看起來，現在司法院有朝向要把它認定1萬是不法所得。甚至有些車手還大剌剌地說，我還沒拿到，所以我沒有不法所得，所以他也不用繳交不法所得，然後他後來得到輕判。我們看到現在好多車手可能被判6個月或只被判幾個月，草草就了事了。","我知道司法院5月14號還要針對這個不法所得的認定開會討論。我現在感受到的是，法院似乎要朝向不法所得是以他實際的收入這一件事情來看。我想要問一下司法院的態度，在這個事情上，大家對於打詐這麼重視，而且事實上打詐最大的破口就是在車手，因為只有車手才會實際出現。所以整個檢調、警察辦案要怎麼樣把這個車手抓起來，然後由車手自白後順藤摸瓜，才能破獲詐騙集團，或者是才能去找一些相對應的金流？結果看起來，車手無法被重判這件事已經變成打詐最後的一個難關。司法院現在的態度是怎樣呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢、關心這件事情。首先第一個跟委員報告，因為司法院主責的是司法行政，有關於個案中法律怎麼適用，這個是屬於法官的權責，司法院沒有辦法……這不是我們的權責。"],["蔡委員易餘：副秘，我知道，我當然知道個案由個案的法官……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我第二點要說明的是……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是這一件已經有法官去聲請大法庭的統一解釋。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個統一解釋完，以後就會拘束很多法官的裁量權嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我現在也會擔心，這個解釋下去會怎麼發展，說真的我不知道。我們司法院的立場到底認為詐騙集團車手應該要重判，還是就是像這樣有輕判的機會？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告一下，有關於法律的適用，就是在法院端，最高法院是因為審級制度構造的關係，所以它最後的權威性事實上是在大法庭所做的解釋。目前就是因為法律的適用在法官之間有分歧，就如委員對這件事情了解得非常清楚，有法官主張是個別的犯罪，有些主張是全部的，要全部繳交之後才能夠減刑。現在就是因為產生歧異，所以大法庭剛剛辯論終結完，訂在5月的時候會宣判、做一個統一的……"],["蔡委員易餘：大法庭要宣判了啦！但是我還是要跟司法院呼籲，事實上我們在思考這件事情的時候，我們都太重視被告，也就是車手這個人，我們卻忽略了被害者。當被害者被詐騙50萬、100萬，這件事情車手參與的犯罪當然就是50萬、就是100萬啊！怎麼可能車手所參與的是他後來拿到的報酬？50萬，他拿1萬、拿10萬都可以，這個跟我們老百姓認為的詐騙要件，這個當然涉及不法所得的計算，但是我們司法院到底是站在什麼本位思考這件事？被告的人權很重要，但是被害者的損失我認為是更重要的。","在不法所得的認定上，這個人都被詐騙了，我們不要說詐騙集團，這些詐騙集團可能在外面騙了一億多，你不能讓那個車手去負擔整個詐騙集團。可是至少在每一個詐騙的個案中，它的不法所得就一定是被害人被騙的總額嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我也沒辦法干涉每一個個案的法官，只是我要透過這個機會告訴整個社會，因為這種社會形成壓力，法官也許才聽得見，不然我們又沒辦法跟法官對話！法官也有他的認事用法，我看檢察官不這麼認為，檢察官每一次都針對車手被輕判，然後被不法所得……看起來檢察官都有上訴，但是就要去賭法官，這個法官可能比較站在被告、這個法官怎麼樣，變成要賭法官，我覺得這樣不好！","現在打詐是臺灣一個很重要的課題，不能把打詐這個課題都讓基層的警員、基層的檢察官承擔，事實上法官也是扮演很重要的一環，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：所有委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員傅崐萁所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160571","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160571","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0941aac412495622f9ac021369aff85baca7a32b531de3e80aa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:26:02 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那我們請這個邱部長還有我們這個是關資訊處 剛剛是有資訊處李署長嘛對 委員好 委員好是 因為大家都很關心這個就今年度大概有三家醫院這個受到駭客攻擊嘛這個在2月6號的時候馬街醫院受到這一個中國駭客的這一個勒索病毒的攻擊然後這個據說有500多部的電腦當機"},{"start":33.852,"end":37.097,"text":"然後他也勒索了150萬美金然後據說有1660萬的個資給詐團 我不曉得有沒有這個有這個病例1660萬的個資給詐團這件事情嗎"},{"start":48.973,"end":76.714,"text":"我想那個剛剛委員所提的齁其實前面那兩家大型的齁我們都有做立即做好馬街嘛齁然後張街市在這個三月初嘛齁也提出了SOP那也針對這60家比較大型的關鍵型的醫院來做好我先問一下就是說目前這三次的這個駭客的攻擊我們有沒有個資到病例的個資外洩了那個請理事長回答那"},{"start":79.249,"end":103.752,"text":"第一個的這個1660萬是駭客主張但是現在還沒有辦法去確認因為這個已經在調查局在處理那那個是我們看不到那個資料他主張說這個是馬街的但是也沒有辦法去驗證所以這個是他們主張就我們的部分來講就是說這個你們有去查調說那有沒有資料便利資料外洩的"},{"start":105.072,"end":123.037,"text":"這個可能性這個也是要調查局因為我們是沒有調查權的我們衛福部是管理輔導他們來做治安防守這樣子所以要以調查局的說法他們已經把這些都 機政都收集起來以他們的說法為主所以病例有沒有外洩目前就調查當中你們也還不知道就對了對 有調查局才說好 那因為"},{"start":124.237,"end":150.79,"text":"馬屆是在2月6號然後張居在3月1號那所以呢你們是在3月中旬有一個醫院面對勒索軟體攻擊的應變交戰守則嘛是不是這個是處長你這邊所提供出來的嘛那我的意思是說啦那結果呢這個3月中旬有這個交戰守則出來之後結果這兩天就是桃園的長盛醫院又受到攻擊了那所以長盛醫院是沒有在你們所謂的60家基礎關鍵的醫院裡面是不是"},{"start":152.255,"end":168.15,"text":"沒有在這裡面比較小型他也不算小型他在桃園中旅算是大型的這一個長照的醫院我們當初定義的意思就是國家的最關鍵的醫院就是用急救重度及責任醫院以上來定義的所以他不是在這個定義範圍之內那可見就是說除了60家之外"},{"start":173.715,"end":194.712,"text":"那幾乎全台灣我認為啦大概這個 第一個你能力有限那第二個 但是我認為說這個是要持續做下去那你先做60家你們認為是關鍵基礎的必須要做然後呢 但是呢除了這60家之外那其他的我是覺得說現在各個醫院的治安能力明顯是不足啦那光靠你們"},{"start":195.333,"end":198.456,"text":"這個資訊處你們要去做這個全國的統籌大概能量也不夠啦所以我問一下邱部長我覺得這個要把它當成一個國安事件來做處理因為它現在就是說你入侵了醫院然後它把這些病業個資把它拿出來"},{"start":215.791,"end":228.89,"text":"那不曉得他要做什麼樣的用途有可能有國安上面的一些疑慮啦所以說是不是這方面的話應該是要跨部會來合作來做一個處理光靠你們資訊處我想大概是沒有辦法有這個能量來做"},{"start":229.787,"end":234.129,"text":"但是這個應變守則只有否60家而已啊接下來有沒有繼續要怎麼做因為你們講了之後那結果第三家出現了"},{"start":249.218,"end":270.997,"text":"那或許搞不好幾天之後第四家第五家又出現啦所以委員所提的這個部分也是我們應該要努力的方向啦我想既然六十家大間都要保護他會起來啦應該這樣的一個處理給把他縮小模式來指導這些所有的醫院我認為是應該是可以去進行"},{"start":271.477,"end":285.895,"text":"那我問一下處長你們有沒有去了解就是說按照我們現在目前的這個醫療機構全國的喔你們有沒有去把它做這個治安的分類就是說它是屬於哪一級然後呢它的這個能力跟經費到底夠不夠你們有做這個治安的分類嗎"},{"start":287.257,"end":305.297,"text":"我們就是跟報告委員就是依據之通法所以我們只有在關鍵基礎設施院做這樣的盤點那超過的話就像委員好那60家裡面你們是做什麼樣的分類那些60家全部都是最高等級的最高等級的最高等級是說他的治安能力也夠經費也夠嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":308.76,"end":330.808,"text":"我們主要是定標準 標準就是說比如他一年要接受多少的一個稽查然後參加什麼樣的演練 那每一年這些所有的醫院我們已經過去三年花很大力氣全部都已經由專家委員去做集合完一次了這樣那相關的缺失報告全部都有回饋給這些醫院那這次現在未來會面臨最大就是勒索軟體"},{"start":331.628,"end":337.459,"text":"所以勒索軟體怎麼處理的時候我們也召集全國的醫院來教育然後也給他這個手冊這樣子"},{"start":338.588,"end":365.627,"text":"但是這個你講的是全國醫院還是說只有60家而已全國的教育是全國醫院這有開始做了嗎全國醫院的那個資安長會議都已經在上個月都已經去交完了對教育是有做完但是就是說這個資安進去第一個他要經費第二個要人力他們現在沒有這兩個事情那個處長他提到一個重點部長你這邊好考量就是說我是希望說衛福部在這個經費上面是不是能夠"},{"start":366.314,"end":393.735,"text":"提高這個治安的經費給各個醫院的這個治安的經費而且這個治安的經費要專款來專用那第二個就是說要提升這個治安直系人員的指餘量就是說各個醫院裡面到底因為我不太清楚說目前在各個醫院裡面現在的這個治安直系的這些人的比例是多少你們可能要去做個調查那到底有沒有這個能力我會給你這個經費那到底你有沒有這個能力來處理這件事情"},{"start":394.355,"end":412.015,"text":"還有呢就是說升級醫療資安的聯防能量就是我剛才提到就是說那你可能除了抒發部之外你自己一個資訊處你一定沒辦法去做這些事情那我是提三個建議這個就是除了衛福部之外我認為層級要拉高甚至到院的部分來做處理不然你們自己去跟這個抒發部講"},{"start":413.997,"end":433.092,"text":"那個其實我是覺得說都沒有如這一個一個政委或是說這個院長來做處理我覺得會更重視這件事情因為這個事情我認為不是單純的你看幾乎一個月就一件了那接下來我覺得要積極去防範這件事情了好不好好謝謝 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1130,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時45分）謝謝主席，我們請邱部長，還有資訊處李處長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：大家都很關心今年至今大概有三家醫院受到駭客攻擊，2月6號的時候馬偕醫院受到中國駭客的勒索病毒的攻擊，據說有五百多部電腦當機，駭客勒索150萬美金，據說有1,660萬筆個資外洩給詐團，我不曉得有沒有1,660萬筆的病歷個資給詐團這件事情？"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛委員所提的前面那兩家大型的醫療院所，我們都有立即做處理……"],["李委員坤城：像馬偕嘛，然後彰基是在3月初嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：也提出了SOP，也針對60家比較大型的、關鍵型的醫院來做好……"],["李委員坤城：我先問一下，目前這三次的駭客攻擊，我們有沒有病歷個資外洩了？"],["邱部長泰源：請李處長回答。"],["李處長建璋：第一個的1,660萬筆這部分是駭客主張，但是現在還沒有辦法確認，因為此案調查局已經在處理，我們看不到那個資料，他主張說這是馬偕的，但是也沒有辦法去驗證，所以這是他們主張的，那也沒有……"],["李委員坤城：就我們的部分來講，你們有去查調，那有沒有病歷資料外洩的可能性？"],["李處長建璋：這個也是要調查局去調查，因為我們沒有調查權，我們衛福部是管理、輔導他們來做資安防守，所以要以調查局的說法，他們已經把這些跡證都收集起來，要以他們的說法為主。"],["李委員坤城：所以病歷有沒有外洩，目前在調查當中，你們也還不知道就對了？"],["李處長建璋：對，調查局才能說明。"],["李委員坤城：好。馬偕是在2月6號，然後彰基是在3月1號，所以你們在3月中旬有提出一個醫院面對勒索軟體攻擊的應變教戰手冊，是不是？這是處長你這邊所提供出來的嘛？"],["李處長建璋：是。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，3月中旬教戰守則出來之後，結果這兩天桃園的長慎醫院又受到駭客攻擊了，所以長慎醫院沒有在你們所謂那60家基礎關鍵的醫院裡面，是不是？"],["李處長建璋：是，它不在。"],["邱部長泰源：因為它比較小型啦。"],["李委員坤城：它也不算小型，它在桃園中壢算是大型的長照醫院。"],["李處長建璋：是，我們當初定義國家關鍵基礎設施醫院，就是用急救重度及責任醫院以上來定義的，所以它不在這個定義範圍之內。"],["李委員坤城：那可見除了那60家之外，幾乎全臺灣我認為大概，當然第一個，你能力也有限；第二個，但是我認為這個要持續做下去，當然你先做60家，你們認為是關鍵基礎的必須要做，但是除了這60家之外，我覺得現在其他各個醫院的資安能力明顯不足，光靠你們的資訊處要去做全國的統籌，大概能量也不夠，所以我問一下邱部長，我覺得要把此事當成國安事件來處理……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["李委員坤城：因為他現在入侵醫院網路，然後比如說他把病人的個資拿出來，不曉得他要做什麼樣的用途，有可能有國安上面的一些疑慮，所以這方面是不是應該要跨部會合作來處理，光靠你們的資訊處，我想大概沒有辦法有這個能量來做。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們其實在做這件事情都有跟數發部……"],["李處長建璋：對，我們跟資安署還有國安會都有聯絡。"],["李委員坤城：對，但是這個應變守則只有for這60家而已，接下來有沒有繼續要怎麼做？因為你們講了之後，結果第三家又出現了，或許搞不好幾天之後，第四家、第五家又出現了，都有可能啊！"],["邱部長泰源：委員所提的這個部分，也是我們應該要努力的方向，我想既然60家大間的都能夠保護起來了，應該這樣的處理模式把它縮小來指導所有的醫院，我認為應該是可以去進行的。"],["李委員坤城：我問一下處長，目前你們有沒有把全國的醫療機構做資安的分類，就是各個醫療機構是屬於哪一級的，然後它的人力跟經費到底夠不夠，你們有做這個資安分類嗎？"],["李處長建璋：報告委員，我們就是依據資通法，所以我們只有針對關鍵基礎設施醫院做這樣的盤點，那超過的話，就像委員講的，大概也沒有這樣的能量去……"],["李委員坤城：好，那60家裡面，你們是做怎麼樣的分類？"],["李處長建璋：這60家全部都是最高等級的。"],["李委員坤城：最高等級的？"],["李處長建璋：對。"],["李委員坤城：最高等級的意思是說它的資安能力也夠，經費也夠嗎還是怎麼樣？我的意思就是說，你們有沒有針對……"],["李處長建璋：我們主要是訂標準，標準就是比如它一年要接受多少的稽查，然後參加什麼樣的演練，這些醫院過去三年我們已經花了很大的力氣，全部都已經由專家委員去稽核完一次了，相關的缺失報告全部都有回饋給這些醫院，未來會面臨最大的就是勒索軟體，所以遇到勒索軟體應該怎麼處理，我們也召集全國的醫院來教育，然後也給它應變手冊。"],["李委員坤城：你講的是全國的醫院還是只有這60家而已？"],["李處長建璋：全國的，教育的部分是全國的醫院。"],["李委員坤城：這個有開始做了嗎？"],["李處長建璋：全國醫院的資安長會議，在上個月都已經去教完了，對，教育是有做完，但是他們沒有……"],["李委員坤城：結果這個月前兩天還會發生……"],["李處長建璋：就是資安進去第一個要經費，第二個要人力，他們現在沒有這兩個。"],["李委員坤城：處長他提到一個重點，部長，你這邊要考量，我希望在經費上面，衛福部是不是能夠提高給各個醫院的資安經費，而且這個資安經費要專款專用。第二個就是要提升各個醫院裡面資安職系人員的質與量，因為我不太清楚，現在各個醫院裡面資安職系的人員比例是多少，你們可能要去做個調查，那到底有沒有這個能力，我有給你這個經費，到底你有沒有這個能力來處理這件事情。還有要升級醫療資安的聯防能量，就是我剛才提到的，除了數發部之外，你自己的資訊處一定沒辦法去做這件事情。","我提三個建議，此事除了衛福部之外，我認為層級要拉高，甚至要拉到院的部分來做處理，不然你們自己去跟數發部講，我覺得都不如由一個政委或是院長來處理會更重視這件事情。因為這個事情我認為並不單純，你看幾乎一個月就一件，接下來我覺得要積極去防範這件事情，好不好？謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，謝謝部長。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160569","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0083401f01d198558c0f390e692fb4f24ca7a32b531de3e80e833ab9d99bf9e445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:40:19 - 12:45:58","影片長度":"00:05:39","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T12:40:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T12:45:58+08:00","duration":339,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.109718750000003,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":56.494718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.66346875,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.14971875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.20159375,"end":126.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.26409375,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.97284375,"end":131.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.03534375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.97596875000002,"end":226.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.57784375000003,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.01846875,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.50409375000004,"end":334.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.80346875000004,"end":322.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.12346875000003,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.09721875,"end":332.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.31221875,"end":335.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.64534375,"end":335.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.67471875,"end":335.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.69159375000004,"end":336.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.37909375000004,"end":339.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.58159375,"end":338.96534375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.167,"end":13.365,"text":"好 謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請財政部財政部的理事長"},{"start":17.857,"end":34.749,"text":"市長,今天本席提案,也就是我們的貨物稅條例第12條的修正草案也希望能夠得到行政部門的支持,以及朝野立委的支持主要是根據內政部的資料統計,我們從民國107年開始就邁入我國高齡社會"},{"start":39.972,"end":54.938,"text":"老年人口佔總人口的比例是超過了14%那在今年我們又邁入了超高齡社會高齡化趨勢對於整個交通跟生活環境提出了更挑戰的一個"},{"start":57.14,"end":71.356,"text":"一個境界那特別是對於長者身心障礙者與行動不方便的朋友來講呢友善以及無障礙的乘車需求這個是非常的必要但是我們看到目前"},{"start":72.657,"end":98.775,"text":"富康巴士作為提升整個弱勢族群行動便利的重要交通工具那麼依法得以免徵貨物稅但是相關的免稅期限即將要屆滿所以本席具體提出也就是提出了貨物稅條例第12條的修正草案延長富康巴士免徵貨物稅期限至民國118年的12月31號 請教"},{"start":102.617,"end":128.425,"text":"市長報告委員這個提案非常的符合我們現在其實整個社會的發展的方向那我跟委員報告因為我們在去年的11月29號已經修正了也就是往委員建議的這個方向來修正目前我們免稅的期限已經延長到118年的12月30號就是延長5年這個是非常的非常的重要我們也是要正式"},{"start":130.086,"end":130.766,"text":"我們看到財政部印刷廠"},{"start":158.929,"end":174.495,"text":"自110年到112年度以來已出現了本期淨利持續衰退的這個情形那也顯示了在整個轉型的過程當中我們面臨到大挑戰因為印刷廠的同仁以及廠長"},{"start":175.755,"end":193.53,"text":"為我們的國家從台灣省政府開始一直到目前他們貢獻良多但是隨著這個轉型的過程當中也就是行動支付電子載具電子發票政策的快速發展"},{"start":196.132,"end":220.666,"text":"對該場傳統式的印刷業務造成了很明顯的衝擊所以必須要有其他獲利的模式來因應整個社會的面向所以特別針對這一點本席要提出也就是社會的訊息萬變那麼你們要如何來降低整個政府"},{"start":222.328,"end":244.442,"text":"推動這個政策之後那降低我們整個印刷廠它的一個風險因為我們看到這個數字告訴我們108年到112年中統一發票相關的收入佔整體營業收入的比重是達到八成以上那換句話說我們現在的主業務是這個"},{"start":246.804,"end":266.694,"text":"但是社會的一個形態改變現在越多人行動支付電子載具以及電子發票的這樣的一個形態所以本期要請教你財政部要怎麼樣協助我們的印刷廠多元性的一個轉型讓他們能夠永續發展"},{"start":267.694,"end":294.194,"text":"總報告委員其實我們也發現就是印刷廠因為早期他是在印製統一發票那隨著這個紙本發票越來越少當然對他的統一發票這方面的收入確實有減少但是因為我們事實上目前我們所有的就是統一發票的對講服務我們就請印刷廠來做主政的機關然後另外呢我們也希望就是說他自己本身也要行動也要做一些業務上的轉型"},{"start":295.575,"end":319.653,"text":"看是不是以這個印刷的專業智能能夠提供一些相關的廠商建立一些防危的機制或者拓展一些新的業務這部分因為印刷廠是我們財政部的公股行庫所以我們其實每三個月也都會去了解他們這個業務的發展狀況也督促他們做一些相關轉型的這個提升業務的提升這個部分也謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":322.275,"end":322.295,"text":"楊瓊英議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1050,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時40分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請財政部。"],["主席：請財政部李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，今天本席提案就是貨物稅條例第十二條的修正草案，也希望能夠得到行政部門的支持以及朝野立委的支持。主要是根據內政部的資料統計，我國從民國107年開始就邁入高齡社會，老年人口占總人口的比例超過14%，今年我國又邁入了超高齡社會。高齡化的趨勢讓整個交通與生活環境提出更具挑戰的境界，特別是對於長者、身心障礙者與行動不方便的朋友來講，友善以及無障礙的乘車需求非常必要。但是我們看到目前復康巴士作為提升整個弱勢族群行動便利的重要交通工具，依法得以免徵貨物稅，但是相關免稅期間即將屆滿，所以本席具體提出貨物稅條例第十二條的修正草案，延長復康巴士免徵貨物稅的期限至民國118年12月31日，請教次長。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，這個提案其實非常符合現在整個社會的發展方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：也跟委員報告，我們在去年11月29日已經修正了，也就是往委員建議的方向修正，目前免稅期限已經延長到118年12月31日。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是延長5年？"],["李次長慶華：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這非常、非常地重要，我們也希望正式法制化。"],["李次長慶華：對，我們呼應委員的提案已經修正，目前延長了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，要正式地以法制化來告訴大家，財政部就這部分同意修正到118年12月31日，請大家放心。","接下來本席要跟你討論的，就是在國發會官網上的最新國營事業112年度工作考成總報告，我們看到財政部印刷廠自110年至112年度以來，已出現本期淨利持續衰退的情形，顯示在轉型過程中面臨重大挑戰。因為印刷廠同仁以及廠長從臺灣省政府開始一直到目前為止，他們貢獻良多，但是隨著轉型過程當中行動支付、電子載具、電子發票政策的快速發展，對於該廠傳統式印刷業務造成很明顯的衝擊，所以必須有其他獲利模式因應整個社會的面向。本席要特別針對這一點提出，社會瞬息萬變，你們要如何在整個政府推動這些政策之後，降低印刷廠的風險？因為數字告訴我們，108年到112年中統一發票相關收入占整體營業收入的比重達到八成以上，換句話說，印刷廠現在的主業務是印製統一發票，但是社會型態改變後，愈來愈多人用行動支付、電子載具以及電子發票的型態，所以本席要請教財政部如何協助印刷廠多元性地轉型，讓他們能永續發展？請說明。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，其實我們也發現早期印刷廠是在印製統一發票，而隨著紙本發票愈來愈少，當然它在統一發票這方面的收入確實減少，但是目前針對所有統一發票的兌獎服務，我們是請印刷廠作主政機關。另外，我們也希望它自己也要做一些業務上的轉型，看看是不是能將印刷的專業智能提供給相關廠商，建立防偽機制或拓展新的業務。因為印刷廠是我們財政部的公股行庫，所以我們其實每3個月會去了解他們的業務發展狀況，並督促他們做一些相關轉型與業務提升，這部分也謝謝委員的指教。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛本席也說了，印刷廠同仁留下歷史的軌跡，為國家貢獻非常多……"],["李次長慶華：對，他們對臺灣經濟貢獻很大。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以對於他們的多元轉型、發展，請財政部一定要全力地協助。"],["李次長慶華：會，我們全力支持、全力協助。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","下一位，羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","翁曉玲、翁曉玲、翁曉玲委員不在。","報告委員會，今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","本日會議作如下決議：一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或補充資訊，請相關部會於1週內以書面答復；委員另有要求期限者，從其所定。","人民請願案有關貨物稅條例等7案，另擇期繼續審查。","貨物稅條例等34案今日將先宣讀提案內容，另擇期繼續審查。","本日會議議程已進行完畢，如果有不在場委員補提書面資料，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。","在議事人員宣讀提案之前，我提醒一下李次長，這個快到期了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 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protection其實他就是指的是社會福利啦我們有沒有大概我們我剛查了一下台灣大概是23.91%啦"},{"start":312.15,"end":340.568,"text":"然後這樣的GDP是11.2那我是希望說我們大概還在落後國家這邊人家最旁邊的西班牙已經到55%了好 那我們看下一張那其實如果就以稅收來看的話其實從2000年也是2000年到現在已經20年的時間其實它這個所謂的我們social contribution指的是我們薪資所得或者是說雇主給的那些錢"},{"start":342.25,"end":355.329,"text":"去給我們社會福利這邊的話其實是constant它不會什麼有太大的改變所以我們要去想這些財源要從哪裡來從這20年來其實都是差不多的都是這個樣子我們看下一頁"},{"start":357.622,"end":379.503,"text":"其實有一個很新興的一個想法就是當然在國外已經不是新興所謂的碳稅其實可以作為社會福利的一個來源可是我看了我們的氣候變遷因應法的第三三條所謂的用途裡面沒有講到以後可以作為我們社會福利這個部分那我就去查了這個資料就是說在"},{"start":381.38,"end":398.585,"text":"其實我們歐美很多 芬蘭1990年就開始有碳費其實我們碳費是多少 你知道嗎 部長 公告的價格一公噸是300塊 那我就舉瑞士的例子好了在2008年的時候 他訂的是474塊台幣過了大概10年以後 2022年"},{"start":403.649,"end":424.044,"text":"他漲了10倍 現在是他要付4744塊的碳費那結果他把這個那麼大筆的收入呢他就直接所謂的lumsum transfer也就是一次性的支付給社福基金三分之二把所有的那個所得大概是12億瑞士法郎"},{"start":426.706,"end":454.024,"text":"給我們所謂的health care rate這樣所以就是說其實從碳費這個部分以後的這個溫室氣體管理基金其實以後要有一個去修正它的用途其實可以用來做這樣的一個運用因為我們知道像看到這個一個表格這是立陶宛的表格他就說了其實他作為碳費作為一個財政資源的時候他可以幫忙"},{"start":454.985,"end":473.638,"text":"百分之八十以上的人到八這邊到了零界點 到了零這個是以十單位所以這是百分之八十的意思也就是說碳費可以作為社會福利的一個來源的時候它可以照顧絕大多數的人所以請以後再做"},{"start":475.018,"end":494.366,"text":"我們的財政規劃的時候可以把碳稅納入進來這樣你會減輕很多的負擔請部長多多去想一想謝謝我想感謝委員引經濟田的國外的經驗我想這個是我們未來來努力的方向謝謝謝謝盧委員最標準謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1099,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（12時37分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["盧委員縣一：好，部長辛苦了！先就偏鄉的篩檢來問幾個問題，我看到你們的報告是說異常率6.2%，然後30萬人，那個是一年裡面的量嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，這是從去年7月1日開始實施，到今年的4月17日。"],["盧委員縣一：還沒有滿一年。"],["吳署長昭軍：還沒、還沒。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道這30萬的普及率是多少，針對所有的小朋友來講。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們全國統計起來大概46%左右。"],["盧委員縣一：連一半都不到嘛！"],["吳署長昭軍：還沒有、還沒有，持續在增加當中。"],["盧委員縣一：我查了一下期刊，2020的期刊，小兒科的，它在做這個developmental screening chart 17項，針對0到3歲，它發現developmental 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謝謝委員 謝謝部長那我想邀請邱部長委員好部長好部長昨天相信你有看到這個新聞啊就行政院我們卓院長說了要在這幾天內解凍提出所有的解凍報告所以我想要在這邊請問一下衛福部是不是也會在這幾天內提出解凍報告"},{"start":34.363,"end":48.418,"text":"我們一直在針對那個委員的要求那各部門一直在進行中所以如果時間有要一個時間的話我想我們會全力來完成那大概是什麼時候"},{"start":54.578,"end":71.189,"text":"因為各部門都 我會去盤點各部門完成的一個進度那我們希望寫得更完周前 讓送進來立法大院的時候大院能夠滿意 能夠接受我們這樣的一個回應順利的來解凍 所以這個時間點我想我們會盡快盡快會是一週內 類似這樣子"},{"start":79.083,"end":94.293,"text":"那個一周內我是比較不敢講全部有辦法完成但是如果行政院有怎麼樣整體配合我們也日月加班來因為這個是昨天講的因為行政院說有整體的配合"},{"start":95.837,"end":109.256,"text":"會 我們會配合行政院來努力 因為總是大家一起努力因為我們從其他內部的文件看到行政院是要求各位是禮拜四中午以前這個你有看到這個嗎"},{"start":116.127,"end":125.872,"text":"我們現在在衛福部是沒有接到這樣的一個指示反正你現在會配合行政院就對了我們當然會做最好的準備"},{"start":127.773,"end":144.134,"text":"我先回憶讓您回憶一下我們上禮拜其實有進行這樣子的巡打啦你說教育部因為教育部那個時候當天還是那幾天就在樓下說他們預計兩到三週完成啦那這個是您回答我的我播放一下"},{"start":153.137,"end":161.709,"text":"您開始是說兩到三週你要配合教育部但是到最後呢這個質詢快要結束前你說其實你沒有辦法預測時間"},{"start":165.575,"end":186.337,"text":"那你說你會努力所以我說其實你還是沒有給我一個具體的答案所以上禮拜我們最後的結論是你原本說兩到三週但是現在你似乎又說可以配合行政院的一聲零下你又可以送了好 那我在這邊讓您看一下"},{"start":187.418,"end":201.817,"text":"其實當我們陸陸續續質詢教育部或是質詢衛福部的時候大家的答案大概都落在還需要一點時間或是還需要很多時間沒有辦法給出一個正確答案那這個是上禮拜有一位具名的公務人員他是出來爆料說"},{"start":203.098,"end":216.704,"text":"他很確認他準備好的這些預算解凍報告拒絕提送立院審議只為了讓你們那個狗屁宣講可以繼續誇大再讓煽動預算癱瘓政府裂解這個社會這算什麼愛台灣這算什麼團結台灣這叫什麼勤政清廉愛鄉土後面是一點點髒話然後就說"},{"start":226.17,"end":245.358,"text":"對後面我就不用再多說了大家可以自己看螢幕好所以也許卓院長是害怕有更多公務員站出來所以他在昨天就說我們會盡快把全部的報告都送出來他昨天早上講的這件事呢馬上就有人又截圖文化部的人截圖爆料說"},{"start":247.252,"end":264.843,"text":"請各位把所有的解凍報告內容瀏覽一次喔而且他知道什麼地方可能會被抓出是早早就準備好的字眼早早就準備好因為他說提醒大家適時的更新相關的數據確認不要被解讀成很早寫好的報告"},{"start":265.683,"end":287.612,"text":"我在這邊也想要呼籲啦我想呼籲部長您體恤您下面所有的基層公務員因為您上禮拜說其實至少需要兩到三週或者還需要蠻長的時間那個時候我建議您好兩到三週沒關係但是呢把最重要的先送進來這個是我們可以接受您心中覺得最重要但是您也是需要兩到三週那"},{"start":288.792,"end":312.005,"text":"假使因為類似這樣子的文件我們又讓人家加班了就不好因為你一開始就說我們會全力配合我們會加班所以我在這邊也想跟你目前許多正義的勇敢的公務員說你們可以來告訴我因為之前我跟陳昭之委員都曾經在這邊呼籲有被霸凌的人可以來告訴我們當時我們有協助一個保發中心的"},{"start":312.805,"end":339.278,"text":"工讀生因此自殺身亡那這位主管已經離職了那當時我開了一個協調會後來我們也有發現有一個海科館的員工來跟我們爆料如何這個濫用公帑出國的事件現在海科館的館長也下台了所以我希望有看到這段質詢的公務員如果你們被二診如果你們很久以前就已經很負責的準備好這些解凍報告"},{"start":340.419,"end":367.123,"text":"但是呢現在有人逼你們在幾天之內確認這些內容還有這些字眼更新數據以免被發現是很早就準備好只是被押注不能送出來的話請你們告訴我好嗎那這邊部長如果你覺得你的同仁們其實需要更多時間你也不希望他們加班你可以在這邊具體的跟我們說一下說你不一定會配合行政院的節奏就依照你自己的節奏就好了"},{"start":369.326,"end":370.088,"text":"謝謝委員這麼體恤我們政府單位的員工"},{"start":375.922,"end":391.452,"text":"我從以前擔任立委到現在回到公務人員我都覺得當時我都檢討我當時立委也造成行政部門很大的壓力也深感內疚所以我說5點到3週沒關係因為你上禮拜就是告訴我2到3週"},{"start":398.897,"end":426.143,"text":"我覺得真的是影響我們公務人員的居家生活啦所以我現在很小心盡量讓同仁不要加班啦我們現在有你的三種答案啦我們現在有你的三種答案一個是兩到三週一個是你不知道什麼時候今天是你會配合行政院好那我們就來看最後我們是不是可以讓公務員有他們良好的生活品質我也不希望他們再改報告了下一個"},{"start":429.243,"end":432.58,"text":"我們來看一下 這個要關心很多基層的醫療院所"},{"start":433.885,"end":463.177,"text":"好這個您當然剛剛已經有一些委員都有詢問過了今年3月底我們衛福部有推出一個醫院面對勒索軟體攻擊的應變指南這個文件裡面有說我們要求救公機關比如說NCERT或者是一個非公家的機關私人的基金會但是都缺乏明確的說明中央層級支援團隊是不是可以協助災後接手或是介入那為什麼我們會點出這個問題是因為最近被攻擊的"},{"start":463.677,"end":464.633,"text":"這個"},{"start":465.194,"end":477.845,"text":"醫院他剛好就是比較小規模的那這個駭客呢他專門就是攻擊1000人以下的這樣中小型的企業可是我很仔細的翻了一下你們的這份報告你在這邊有寫說初期立即應對的時候必須要啟動一個事件應變團隊那這個事件應變團隊裡面有念給你聽有院長有資安長有資安主管有資安專職人員"},{"start":494.638,"end":507.005,"text":"還有應變復原組包括系統商還有事件調查組包括服務廠商還有發言人我們扣掉院長的話呢資安相關的人員就需要五個"},{"start":509.551,"end":527.925,"text":"但你知道長盛醫院這個被攻擊的長盛醫院他的治安人員就只有兩位只有兩位所以我想請衛福部提供到底用你們這個應變措施這個報告適用的醫療院所到底全台灣有幾家是不是還有很多人根本沒有辦法成立這個應變小組啊"},{"start":530.336,"end":558.054,"text":"我想今天早上已經談過幾次了謝謝委員關心這個醫療的治安那現在目前在我們的一個可能保護的應該是60家吧應該是60家那這60家也是關鍵所謂的關鍵醫院可能他的夠大型資料夠多所以必須要先保護那我們當然今天早上大家的討論也希望把這樣的保護傘"},{"start":559.595,"end":582.697,"text":"我們當然今天發生這個地區醫院發生事情我們也趕快去跟他做相關的輔導跟協助那是不是當然不是說爆發才去協助爆發才去協助而是逐漸把這樣的經驗擴展到全部當然為什麼會關係是因為之前我們被攻擊的是馬街醫院是您講的嘛比較大規模的有60家您必須要優先保護但是現在小規模的也很多啊它適用不了你這個手冊啊"},{"start":590.975,"end":602.788,"text":"目前我們資安法規定ABC級醫院所需要的資安人員是421那即使這個規定除了我們醫療院所之外全國的話資安人員都聘不到這些人因為這個資安人員太稀缺了"},{"start":603.268,"end":627.289,"text":"所以現在我們這個從治安署有演繹說我聽懂了所以其實我也希望能夠看到你們一份檢討報告第一就是說到底有幾家醫院其實不太適用你這個手冊因為剛很明顯的只要是中小型的醫院他根本不可能臨時啟動這樣子的一面團隊就需要你們公布這個手冊當初就是只有針對這60家關鍵基礎措施所以你必須要再做出一個新的手冊嘛對不對"},{"start":628.294,"end":646.869,"text":"那個不是我們業管範圍在資安署的規定我們不用去管那些東西那第二點呢這個也是呃陳情啦就這些醫療院所的陳情第二點你講到說你裡面提到因為他們會很怕這些駭客留守駐守或是進行第二次的攻擊那因為大部分的"},{"start":647.529,"end":661.379,"text":"威脅或是恐嚇都不是一次性的所以你提到說我們必須要長期監控機制還有持續定期等等但你裡面這個定期你並沒有寫明你的頻率你要怎麼輔導他們這種類似災後的重建"},{"start":668.473,"end":685.548,"text":"所謂的定期其實我們每一年都有做這個叫資安集合也有做相關的每一年 對所以不同規模的醫院你是用同樣的現在這一切都只有針對60家關鍵基礎設施醫院這只有我們月管在這裡那超過這60家的話都是只有輔導性質而已 對"},{"start":687.093,"end":699.957,"text":"好 之後我應該會具體的在比較大的質詢我們可能跟行政院長建議是不是我們要拉近速發布的角色來協助你們建構我們真正的醫療韌性因為這千乎國安議題啊好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1055,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（12時25分）謝謝主席，謝謝委員，謝謝部長。我想邀請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。部長，昨天相信你有看到這個新聞，行政院卓院長說了，要在這幾天內提出所有的解凍報告，所以我想要在這邊請問一下，衛福部是不是也會在這幾天提出解凍報告？"],["邱部長泰源：針對委員的要求，各部門一直在進行中，所以如果要一個時間的話，我想我們會全力來完成任務。"],["陳委員菁徽：大概是什麼時候？"],["邱部長泰源：我會去盤點各部門完成的進度，我們希望寫得更周全，送進來大院的時候讓大院能夠滿意，能夠接受我們這樣的回應，然後順利來解凍，所以這個時間點，我想我們會儘快。"],["陳委員菁徽：儘快會是一週內？類似這樣子。"],["邱部長泰源：一週內我是比較不敢講有辦法全部完成啦！但是如果行政院有怎麼樣的整體配合，我們也日夜加班來完成。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為這個是昨天講的，行政院說有整體的配合。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會配合行政院來努力，總是大家一起努力嘛！"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為我們從其他內部的文件看到行政院是要求各位在禮拜四中午以前繳交，你有看到這個嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：在衛福部是沒有接到這樣的指示。"],["陳委員菁徽：反正你現在會配合行政院就對了。"],["邱部長泰源：對，我們當然會做最好的準備。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我先讓您回憶一下，我們上禮拜其實有進行這樣子的詢答，因為教育部當天還是那幾天就在樓下說他們預計兩到三週完成，這個是您回答我的，我播放一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：你一開始是說兩到三週，你要配合教育部，但是到質詢快要結束前，你說其實你沒有辦法預測時間，然後你會努力，所以我說你還是沒有給我一個具體的答案。上禮拜我們最後的結論是，你原本說兩到三週，但是現在你似乎又說配合行政院的一聲令下，你又可以送了。","好，我在這邊讓您看一下，當我們陸陸續續質詢教育部或是質詢衛福部的時候，大家的答案大概都落在還需要一點時間或是還需要很多時間，沒有辦法給出一個正確的答案。這個是上禮拜有一位具名的公務人員出來爆料，他很確認他準備好的預算解凍報告，拒絕提送立院審議，只為了讓你們那個狗屁宣講可以繼續誇大「在野黨刪凍預算癱瘓政府」，裂解這個社會，這算什麼愛臺灣？這算什麼團結臺灣？這叫什麼勤政清廉愛鄉土？後面是一點點髒話，我就不用再多說了，大家可以自己看螢幕。好，也許卓院長是害怕有更多公務員站出來，所以他在昨天就說會儘快把全部的報告都送出來，他昨天早上講了這件事，馬上又有人截圖，文化部的人截圖爆料說，請各位把所有的解凍報告內容瀏覽一次，而且他知道什麼地方可能會被抓出是早早就準備好的字眼，因為他提醒大家適時地更新相關的數據，確認不要被解讀成很早就寫好的報告。","我在這邊也想要呼籲啦！我想呼籲部長體恤您下面所有的基層公務員，因為您上禮拜說至少需要兩到三週，或者還需要滿長的時間，那個時候我建議您，兩到三週沒關係，但是把最重要的先送進來，這個我們可以接受。您心中覺得最重要的，但是您也是需要兩到三週，假使因為類似這樣子的文件，我們又讓人家加班了就不好，因為你一開始就說我們會全力配合，我們會加班，所以我在這邊也想跟目前許多正義的、勇敢的公務員說，你們可以來告訴我，因為之前我與陳昭姿委員都曾經在這邊呼籲，有被霸凌的人可以來告訴我們，當時有一個保發中心的工讀生因此自殺身亡，這一位主管已經離職了，在當時我有開了一個協調會來協助。後來也有一個海科館的員工來跟我們爆料如何濫用公帑出國的事件，現在海科館的館長也下臺了，所以我希望有看到這段質詢的公務員，如果你們被惡整，如果你們很久以前就已經很負責地準備好這些解凍報告，但是現在有人逼你們在幾天之內確認這些內容還有這些字眼，更新數據以免被發現是很早就準備好，只是被壓住不能送出來的話，請你們告訴我好嗎？","部長，如果你覺得你的同仁們需要更多時間，你也不希望他們加班，你可以在這邊具體跟我們說一下，說你不一定會配合行政院的節奏，依照你自己的節奏就好了。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員這麼體恤我們政府單位的員工，我從以前擔任立委到現在回到公務人員，我都檢討我當時擔任立委也造成行政部門很大的壓力，也深感內疚，因為有時候我們5點才跟人家要資料……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我說你兩到三週沒關係，因為你上禮拜就是告訴我兩到三週。"],["邱部長泰源：然後明天早上要用，所以他12點就要給你，我覺得真的是影響我們公務人員的居家生活啦！所以我現在很小心，儘量讓同仁不要加班，能夠快樂的上班。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為我們現在有你的三種答案，一個是兩到三週，一個是你不知道什麼時候，今天是你會配合行政院，好，我們就來看最後是不是可以讓公務員有良好的生活品質，我也不希望他們再改報告了。","下一個，我們來看一下，這個要關心很多基層的醫療院所，當然剛剛已經有一些委員詢問過了，今年3月底衛福部有推出醫院面對勒索軟體攻擊的應變指南，這個文件裡面有說我們要求救公機關，比如說N-CERT，或者是一個非公家的機關，私人的基金會，但是都缺乏明確的說明，中央層級支援團隊是不是可以協助災後接手或是介入？為什麼我們會點出這個問題？是因為最近被攻擊的醫院剛好就是比較小規模的，這個駭客他專門攻擊1,000人以下的中小型企業，可是我很仔細地翻了一下你們這份報告，你在這邊有寫初期立即應對的時候，必須要啟動事件應變團隊，在這個事件應變團隊裡面，我唸給你聽，有院長，有資安長，有資安主管，有資安專職人員，還有應變復原組，包括系統商，還有事件調查組，包括服務廠商，還有發言人。好，我們扣掉院長的話，資安相關的人員就需要5個，那你知道這個被攻擊的長慎醫院，它的資安人員就只有兩位，所以我想請衛福部提供，適用你們這個應變措施報告的醫療院所到底全臺灣有幾家？是不是還有很多人根本沒有辦法成立這個應變小組？"],["邱部長泰源：我想今天早上已經談過幾次了，謝謝委員關心醫療的資安，目前我們在保護的應該是60家，這60家也是所謂的關鍵醫院，可能它夠大型，資料夠多，所以必須要先保護。當然今天早上大家的討論是希望把這樣的保護傘，像今天這個地區醫院發生事情，我們也趕快去跟它做相關的輔導及協助，當然不是說爆發才去協助、爆發才去協助，而是逐漸把這樣的經驗擴展到全部。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然，為什麼會關心？是因為之前被攻擊的是馬偕醫院，是您講的嘛！比較大規模的有60家，您必須要優先保護，但是現在小規模的也很多，它適用不了你這個手冊啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分請李處長來說明。"],["李處長建璋：委員好。跟委員說明一下，目前我們資安法規定A、B、C級的醫院所需要的資安人員是4、2、1，其實這個規定除了我們醫療院所之外，在全國的話，資安人員都聘不到這些人，因為資安人員太稀缺了，所以現在資安署裡面有研議說……"],["陳委員菁徽：我聽懂了，所以我也希望能夠看到你們一份檢討報告，第一，到底有幾家醫院其實不太適用你這個手冊？因為剛剛很明顯的，只要是中小型的醫院，它根本不可能臨時啟動這樣子的應變團隊，就需要你們公部門……"],["李處長建璋：這個手冊當初就是只有針對這60家關鍵基礎設施醫院。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以你必須要再做出一個新的手冊嘛！對不對？"],["李處長建璋：那個不是我們業管範圍，是在資安署的規定，我們不用去管那些東西，那是資通法規。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，第二點，這個也是陳情啦！就是這些醫療院所的陳情，他們很怕這些駭客留守、駐守或是進行第二次攻擊，因為大部分的威脅或恐嚇都不是一次性的，所以你提到說必須要長期監控機制，還有持續定期等等，但你裡面這個定期並沒有寫明頻率，你要怎麼輔導他們這種類似災後的重建？"],["李處長建璋：所謂的定期，其實我們每一年都有做資安稽核，也有做相關的演練。"],["陳委員菁徽：每一年？"],["李處長建璋：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以不同規模的醫院，你是用同樣的……"],["李處長建璋：現在一切都只有針對60家關鍵基礎設施醫院，只有我們列管在這裡，超過這60家的話，都是只有輔導性質而已。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，之後我應該會在比較大的質詢具體跟行政院長建議，是不是要拉進數發部的角色來協助你們建構真正的醫療韌性，因為這關乎國安議題，好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0a2d07f6856a36580c0f390e692fb4f24ca7a32b531de3e8073918cfeb3a2548d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:31:49 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兩位一定都有注意到川普公開說"},{"start":35.575,"end":61.807,"text":"歐盟跟日本有八大非關稅的作弊手段我這個用得很重我們平常用的字眼叫做非關稅的貿易障礙嘛對不對他直接講說這是作弊這很顯然也會影響到我們台灣這段時間跟美國高關稅的談判兩位次長都有注意到對不對那剛剛有進一步去討論了裡面可能馬上影響到的就是貨物稅對不對"},{"start":66.121,"end":71.613,"text":"那貨物稅目前我的了解就汽車啊價格一直居高不下"},{"start":72.728,"end":101.381,"text":"很多民眾都抗議了財政部到目前好像都是講說是市場結果可是經濟部是贊成對不對那市長經濟部對於汽車的貨物稅降下來是持贊成的態度嗎這個部分民眾跟業者有一些的反應那至於說如何去進行與時俱進的調整我們會跟財政部一起來檢討這個非常重要你看川普已經明確點名了老蔣最近這一二十年來"},{"start":102.728,"end":122.086,"text":"很多民眾跟立法院都在推動汽車貨物稅是要降的汽車那個價格真的太貴了而且保護的過頭了這次高關稅這個談判可能就是一個契機所以請經濟部你既然往這個方向在走在開會的時候不只建立財政部要往降這個汽車的貨物稅走好不好"},{"start":125.458,"end":152.539,"text":"很多事情彷彿相扣委員這個指導的意見我們在內部評估或是相關的會議的話我們會妥善的來加以納入評估這千年的意義你看已經爭取了一二十年後來都被擋住可能這次就是一個歷史的契機可以把這個汽車的相關稅降下來我們來討論看看台灣的車價為什麼會拚高每次財政部都說它是市場結構公需其實"},{"start":155.322,"end":157.609,"text":"最重要的關節在哪裡最重要的關鍵在哪裡"},{"start":159.629,"end":177.604,"text":"萬萬稅嘛,就稅是出了問題嘛進口稅它基本上就是一個稅負的疊加至少42.5%起跳,我們看看咧它課幾種稅,而且大家知道嗎它是相乘的,一直乘上去第一個,進來要關稅對不對進來要關稅對不對要關稅嘛,進口關稅還要貨物稅,貨物稅現在多少"},{"start":186.131,"end":208.883,"text":"後稅有兩種 一種是小客車2000cc以下25% 2000cc以上30%另外還有營業稅 營業稅因為每個都有繳 營業稅大家不要沒有意見現在大家有意見的 其實重點就是後稅我算給大家聽一下 大家看一下這個公式這樣算下來 用關稅1.175乘以後稅的1.25乘以營業稅的1.05你買不汽車啊"},{"start":214.69,"end":241.708,"text":"本來一百塊的你要付到一百五十四塊就多了三分之一的價格出來這個稅不只太繁複的而且太多了你買進來之後要養這部車你還要牌照稅還要燃料稅還要強制保險全世界沒人像台灣這樣啦利用這個機會好好好好檢討一下我來做個比較各國進口車的這個關稅大家看一下"},{"start":244.383,"end":260.575,"text":"美國 2.5%日本 日本本來這個後稅跟關稅本來是高的喔他慢慢慢慢降 他現在已經是0了新加坡也是0結果呢 我們有一個17.5%的關稅"},{"start":263.8,"end":275.967,"text":"我們從2000年 2002年的時候我們關稅從60%降到30%2010年的時候又降 降到17.5%可是跟全世界比起來我們關稅已經太高了吧 對不對 次長"},{"start":277.239,"end":296.034,"text":"現在更嚴重的是剛剛你剛才說的那個25%到30%的那個營業稅貨物稅那個加起來42.5%耶加上我剛剛講的營業稅你每買一部車進來就多加了三分之一的錢了那現在更嚴重的川普跟你講了這是一個作弊"},{"start":297.54,"end":308.029,"text":"對不對所以利用這個時間點是不是好好去檢討一下可以嗎財政部可以利用這個機會好好去檢討一下把我們剛剛一直在強調的汽車的貨物稅 租賃的調降"},{"start":310.245,"end":327.943,"text":"我們這次會配合那個對等關稅的談判會做一些因應的方案好 我最後做三個訴求因為那個主席已經舉起來了第一個這個是民眾也是包括中華經濟研究院他們的一個建議對貨物稅進行稅務透明跟公平化的這個檢視第二個"},{"start":329.344,"end":351.56,"text":"用公共政策為名這個說客啊應該要有一個實際的數據第三個 要撤除錯誤的這個稅制才能夠真正減輕民眾的負擔其實啦 目前這個車價這麼高說來最大的是誰 就是消費者嘛好不好 包括中華經濟研究院都提醒了我們現在一直要加入這個CPTPP 對不對市長 兩位市長 我們要加入"},{"start":356.633,"end":377.35,"text":"那明明確切就要求要調降我們進口的關稅進口車的關稅嘛對不對結果你說要加入CPTPP結果你那個汽車的關稅又不降你這不是自打嘴巴嗎前後就矛盾啊所以國際的歧視本來就要做還有照顧我們國內的這個消費者請好好趕快去討論好不好好那能不能在一個禮拜內"},{"start":379.706,"end":391.319,"text":"這個應該是財政部的事吧對不對那個經濟部比較沒有意見要講吧還是兩個這樣好不好經濟部跟財政部一個禮拜內都給我一份關於我們的汽車貨物稅有沒有可能逐年調降的一個報告"},{"start":392.899,"end":413.211,"text":"報告委員我們可不可以給我們長一點的時間因為我們現在這個部分有些事情我們還不方便在一個禮拜啦我跟你講為什麼要一個禮拜因為你馬上就要去談判了這個應該是你們的必考題市長聽我講聽我講這應該是去跟美國跟川普談判的必考題他已經講到清楚八大八大作弊裡面的"},{"start":414.211,"end":432.481,"text":"裡面很重要一項就是這個啊你沒有準備你怎麼去談判所以這變成你一個籌碼嘛你把它準備好不只給本席給立法院你們帶去美國的時候也講我們在這個汽車的貨物稅我們要適度的降低啊你不用一次全部都取消啊可是這跟日本一樣啊你適度每一年逐步的把它下降啊"},{"start":433.318,"end":457.533,"text":"因為這個畢竟還在談判的過程很多事情我們現在不適合他當作他的機密所以先不要給他這是你該做的事情吧時間可以了時間已經給你五分鐘了跟他多久主席你認為他應該多久給我這個報告這個要尊重他好不好因為這個要拿去跟美國談判你現在叫他拿出來不好啦真的不好"},{"start":458.315,"end":463.151,"text":"不過你要有準備啦 那是必考題嘛我們如果有結果的時候 我們一定會跟委員報告的"},{"start":465.075,"end":491.751,"text":"沒有錯啦 好啦 那一個月給我報告啦你一個月一定有談判了吧 對不對不好啦 不好啦沒有沒有 先這樣子啦 抱歉抱歉 我要講一下 主席已經主席這麼資深 有重量級已經站起來了 我沒有在講了時間已經拖很久了你第一個 你要跟全國的民眾引諾說你已經開始在檢討 因為這是必考題嘛你不可能 不可能不做研究 不做報告這個原理嘛 對不對那第二個 就是你們談判到一個階段你們要趕快把這個動態給大家看沒問題 我們如果可以對外說明的時候我們一定會對外說明的OK 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時32分）請財政部李慶華次長，還有經濟部賴建信次長。"],["主席：請兩位長官。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：兩位好。兩位一定都有注意到川普公開說歐盟跟日本有八大非關稅的作弊手段，這個詞用得很重。我們平常用的字眼叫做非關稅貿易障礙嘛！而他直接講這是作弊！這很顯然也會影響到臺灣這段時間跟美國的高關稅談判。兩位次長都有注意到，對不對？剛剛也進一步討論了，裡面可能馬上影響到的就是貨物稅，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：應該不是只有貨物稅啦！還有關稅。"],["張委員啓楷：關於貨物稅，以我目前的了解，對於汽車價格一直居高不下，很多民眾都抗議了。財政部到目前為止好像都講這是市場結構，可是經濟部是贊成的，對不對？賴次長，經濟部對於汽車貨物稅降下來是持贊成的態度嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個部分，民眾跟業者有一些反映。至於如何進行與時俱進的調整，我們會跟財政部一起檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：這個非常重要喔！你看川普已經明確點名了。老實講這一、二十年來，很多民眾跟立法院都在推動汽車貨物稅是要調降的，汽車價格真的太貴了，而且保護得過頭了，這次高關稅談判可能就是一個契機。經濟部既然在往這個方向走，請在開會時建議財政部要往降汽車貨物稅走，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：很多事情環環相扣啦！對於委員指導的意見，我們在內部評估或相關會議上會妥善加以納入。"],["張委員啓楷：這是千年一遇欸！你看已經爭取了一、二十年，後來都被擋住，可能這次就是歷史的契機，可以把汽車相關稅率降下來。","來！我們討論看看，臺灣的車價為什麼會偏高？每次財政部都說是基於市場結構、供需，其實最重要的關鍵在哪裡？萬萬稅嘛！就是稅制出了問題嘛！進口稅基本上就是稅負的疊加，至少42.5%起跳。我們看看它課幾種稅，而且大家知道嗎？稅是相乘的，一直乘上去。第一，進口要關稅對不對？次長。"],["李次長慶華：對，進口關稅。"],["張委員啓楷：除了進口關稅，還要貨物稅。貨物稅率現在是多少？"],["李次長慶華：貨物稅有2種，一種是小客車，2,000cc以下稅率25%，2,000cc以上稅率30%。"],["張委員啓楷：2,000cc以上變成30%嘛！另外還要營業稅，不過因為每個產品都要繳，大家對營業稅比較沒有意見，現在大家比較有意見、最大的其實就是貨物稅。我算給大家聽一下，關稅1.175乘以貨物稅的1.25、再乘以營業稅的1.05，買一部汽車，本來100塊要付到154塊，多了1/3的價格出來，這筆稅不只太繁複而且太多了！買進來之後，為了養這部車還要繳牌照稅、燃料稅、強制保險，全世界沒有人像臺灣這樣的啦！你們利用這個機會好好檢討一下。","我再做個比較，各國進口車的關稅，美國2.5%；日本的貨物稅跟關稅本來也是高的喔！經過慢慢調降，到現在已經是零了；新加坡也是零；結果我們有17.5%的關稅。雖然在2002年的時候關稅從60%降到30%，2010年又降到17.5%，可是跟全世界比起來，我們的關稅已經太高了吧！對不對？次長，現在更嚴重的是你剛剛講的25%到30%營業稅。"],["李次長慶華：是貨物稅。"],["張委員啓楷：貨物稅加起來達到42.5%欸！加上我剛剛講的營業稅，每買一部車進來就多加了1/3的錢。現在更嚴重了，川普跟你講這是作弊，所以是不是利用這個時間點好好檢討一下可以嗎？財政部可以利用這個機會好好檢討一下，把我剛剛一直強調的汽車貨物稅逐年調降。"],["李次長慶華：我們這次會配合對等關稅的談判做一些因應方案。"],["張委員啓楷：好。","我最後做3個訴求。第一，這是民眾、也是中華經濟研究院的建議，對於貨物稅進行稅賦透明跟公平化的檢視；第二，用公共政策為名義的稅課，應該有實際數據支持；第三，要撤除錯誤的稅制，才能真正減輕民眾的負擔。其實目前車價這麼高，受害最大的是誰？就是消費者嘛！包括中華經濟研究院都提醒了，我們現在一直想加入CPTPP，對不對？兩位次長，我們要加入，而CPTPP就明明確確要求我們調降進口車的關稅，你說要加入CPTPP，結果汽車關稅又不降，這不是自打嘴巴嗎？前後矛盾啊！所以依國際的趨勢本來就要做。還有，為了照顧國內消費者，請趕快討論，好不好？"],["主席：好……"],["張委員啓楷：能不能在1個禮拜內……這應該是財政部的事，對不對？經濟部比較沒有意見要講嘛！還是兩個……這樣好不好？經濟部跟財政部1個禮拜內都給我一份關於我國汽車貨物稅有沒有可能逐年調降的報告。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，可不可以給我們長一點的時間？因為現在這部分有些事情還不方便對外講。"],["主席：改成1個月啦！"],["張委員啓楷：1個禮拜啦！我跟你講為什麼要1個禮拜，因為你馬上就要去談判了，這應該是你們的必考題。"],["李次長慶華：可是這部分因為……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，聽我講，這應該是跟美國、跟川普談判的必考題，因為他已經講那麼清楚，八大作弊裡面很重要的一項就是這個啊！若你沒有準備，怎麼去談判？這可以變成你的籌碼嘛！你把它準備好，不只給本席、給立法院，你們帶去美國的時候也可以講我們的汽車貨物稅要適度降低，你不用一次全部取消啊！就跟日本一樣適度，每一年逐步下降啊！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，畢竟還在談判的過程，很多事情現在不適合對外說明……"],["主席：當作它們的機密，所以先不要給啦！"],["張委員啓楷：這怎麼會是機密呢？"],["主席：機密啦！"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，這是你該做的事情吧！"],["主席：時間到了好不好？不要再拖了。"],["李次長慶華：暫時不方便提供。"],["主席：時間可以了，已經給你加5分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：那要多久？主席，你認為他應該多久給我這個報告？"],["主席：這要尊重他，好不好？因為這要拿去跟美國談判，現在叫他拿出來不好啦！真的不好。"],["張委員啓楷：不過要有準備啦！這是必考題嘛！"],["李次長慶華：如果有結果的時候，我們一定會跟委員報告的。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！那1個月內給我報告，1個月一定有談判了，對不對？"],["主席：不好啦！不好啦！"],["張委員啓楷：這樣子啦！不好意思，主席這麼資深、重量級都已經站起來了，我不要再講了。"],["主席：時間已經拖很久了。"],["張委員啓楷：第一，你要跟全國民眾允諾已經開始在檢討，因為這是必考題嘛！你不可能不做研究、不做研擬；第二，當你們談判到一個階段，要趕快把這個內容公開給大家看。"],["李次長慶華：沒問題，可以對外說明的時候，我們一定會對外說明的。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：基本上跟美國談了之後一定會講，談之前不能講啦！真的不好啦！"],["張委員啓楷：好，那談完以後趕快給我一份報告。不過一定要趕快做啦！這是必考題，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160565","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160565","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc09160a7f1bba9ff9ca01776dcf2b4a8ffca7a32b531de3e8086cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:21:15 - 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反正偵查中的案件 我不會介入 干涉 指導所以它的偵辦的一個過程 我是不能夠知道的因為我是管政策的 也是管法案的個案的偵辦是由檢查議題 是由最高 就檢查機關在做一個處理所以 但是我跟委員保證 就是檢察官在偵辦的任何的犯罪包括這一次德意樂罷免案的這些連署的問題"},{"start":154.795,"end":169.678,"text":"我相信檢察官都是本離客觀中立的一個一個辦案完全以證據來認定犯罪事實來蒐集證據那絕對是沒有黨派沒有特定的一個立場很好我們就是知道說我們法務部偵辦不公開嘛對不對"},{"start":178.42,"end":197.959,"text":"對不對 我們偵辦的過程不公開嘛但是偵辦後呢媒體就會有知道結果所以我不知道說我們法務部那邊是不是有傳送機啊佈局就過去 媒體就馬上登所以我想說我們是要說明一下就是完全沒有嘛"},{"start":198.579,"end":225.613,"text":"完全沒有但是媒體所以說要裝監視器在你們的偵辦場地還是說他們怎麼那麼沒有神通管道怎麼會都知道這個媒體他有他自己的消息的來源還有多元的管道所以我們偵辦的過程消息的管道我們是不是說我們要去查一下我們的法務部是不是說有哪裡的漏洞呢什麼叫做秘密什麼叫做秘密"},{"start":226.823,"end":245.176,"text":"秘密為什麼是媒體就知道這個秘密的概念是什麼跟委員可能不清楚這個偵查偵查的一個資料裡面的內容當然是偵辦偵辦人員從那個檢查法警書記官等司法警察所以我們的秘密就等於是說秘密都"},{"start":245.996,"end":272.224,"text":"都不見了所以我們叫什麼叫做秘密呢所以我們說一般嫌疑偽造文書是違反各自的罪嫌不等於是一件的事情都要動用前置處罰還有說搜索生涯但是這個罷免案如果法務部認為受到的告發硬硬要用的這樣子的力度來偵辦當然我們也非常尊重"},{"start":275.825,"end":293.324,"text":"但是呢 為何我們的指發就是說在各個縣市有沒有同步辦理這領金我們很尊重 所以要同步辦理各個縣市要同步辦理目前我們看見的就是 八美 立委"},{"start":294.785,"end":310.497,"text":"立委進度是原因造成就是那麼大的落差啦讓我們人民覺得說 是不是說 巴黎就在查 巴蘭也沒有查還有巴我們民眾黨的高雄安市長也沒有著落所以我們就嚴重的懷疑說我們的認真度在哪裡啦"},{"start":319.226,"end":339.642,"text":"各位媒體報告 反正不管任何黨派有涉及犯罪我們都會依法偵辦像這一次的罷免連署的這些的就是由中選會41件來告發的這不是檢察會主動去偵辦的這是中選會依照各選委會去...是啊 所以說我們覺得說有那麼多怎麼那麼奇怪我們今天來的是說希望"},{"start":345.447,"end":349.008,"text":"我們的法務部這邊的話就是人人平等我們要求的是人人平等違法就該依法辦理我們很認同所以完全沒有問題但是我們看到的是不可能是有那麼剛好這樣子因為先進的時間同樣都是偽造文書偏偏的剛好就是說"},{"start":369.053,"end":386.103,"text":"把綠的就被收押把我們高雄安的市長的委交文書到現在還沒有看到就是都有但是沒有看到讓人民對門的司法這樣子的有想像的空間我們希望說不管是在"},{"start":387.003,"end":393.106,"text":"任何的罷免案那麼多不可能只有這樣我們就是有嚴重的質疑啦我們希望說我們要有中心司法要檢調要有中立我認為這樣司法的單位應該要檢討不是要來跟我反質詢部長你認為這樣子的說明"},{"start":409.915,"end":433.243,"text":"所以我們司法希望是不單於一個法而已同時也有義務對社會跟我們人民做交代不是說我們司法的信任就是除了罷免台灣的詐騙集團洗錢 判讀走私這個是辦不完對不對 但是呢我們沒有談個案 大家說沒有 你沒有談個案但是"},{"start":435.484,"end":438.146,"text":"通通都是以一個個案來開始嘛"},{"start":466.024,"end":486.993,"text":"寒蟬效力叫大家閉嘴啦是不是就是收押人民的權利政治言論自由就是大家的我們是很珍惜但是呢這樣那麼極度的去辦理沒有其他方法了嗎還有對我們的金融犯罪"},{"start":487.973,"end":509.994,"text":"是偵辦那個查機的精神 是不是用這樣子的精神來去辦案呢所以說我們部長都回答是因為我每一個委員你都說不介入嘛所以呢 我再請教你你沒有個案 不查個案 不講個案嘛 對不對所以你都群辦嗎"},{"start":511.499,"end":513.64,"text":"你就分不同的族群來辦嗎還是不分政黨來辦嗎 對不對所以我們希望我們要的是你要中立要中立來去做這件事情但是如果是認為政治立場產生"},{"start":528.664,"end":546.714,"text":"就是許多案件就偏撥的部分還有這樣子的情形對我們對檢調的信任感就失去了所以我們希望說這樣子的一個敏感的法務我們的司法人員還有我們的檢調機關是不是嚴守"},{"start":550.596,"end":566.754,"text":"這樣子的行政中立讓我們質疑所以我們希望我們法務部這邊就是要如何來去辦案更中立讓我們人民才覺得司法是我們最信任的最正義的一個部門給我一分鐘讓我們的"},{"start":574.835,"end":590.466,"text":"這個我再跟重申一次就是我們是檢察官是嚴守整個一個客觀中立的一個不分黨派 勿枉勿縱剛才委員關心的就是罷免這個不重要嗎這個很重要啊"},{"start":590.506,"end":612.074,"text":"我沒有說不重要啊我是希望這個要中立好 如果你說這個很重要現在目前我們對我們的國家對我們人民傷害最重要的是什麼每一項犯罪對社會公益都是有侵害對 很重要但是我們現在的最重要的是什麼嘛"},{"start":612.881,"end":619.985,"text":"每一項都是很重要每一項有哪一項我們舉例出來嘛有哪一項最重要的黑金槍毒炸對你辦了嗎查了嗎我們詐騙集團一天一天八億三億"},{"start":629.291,"end":639.578,"text":"3億,一天被詐騙了3億詐騙集團一天被騙了3億你辦了嗎?有那麼認真嗎?還有說我們現在安插在我們總統旁邊的共諜你真的辦了嗎?真的辦了嗎?我們國安的問題,總統的安全,你有辦了嗎?我們把一些我們承辦的相關資料給委員嘛,好不好?"},{"start":656.09,"end":660.137,"text":"雖然你說這樣子 如果你真的是罷免很重要 我要問你幾個問題"},{"start":663.188,"end":684.035,"text":"你要去查的就是說 你們要去查的為什麼他們簽名是不是說是本人嘛 對不對是不是本人簽名 你們去查的罷免人是不是本人簽名 對不對第一個嘛 是嗎委員 這一則是屬於案件申辦的問題 我就不談這些了比如說 你們要去查的 要參加罷免的人為什麼 你們簽名是不是真的 為什麼要簽名"},{"start":693.138,"end":707.212,"text":"你要罷免的是誰罷免這個人他有什麼罪名你要多查啊你不能只要說他簽名啊多查這樣才是真正的去查還有說這個部分我們五十二個人五十二個人你們都要去查去調查這個罪名"},{"start":714.979,"end":719.503,"text":"都要去查才對啊不能只是查簽名而已要查說他要罷誰這個全部都要查所以呢我們行政中立跟司法獨立說起來是很簡單但是其中不管是公務人員或者調查人員難免都有自己的價值觀還有立場所以呢作為主管機關我們要避免這樣的情形發生所以這要"},{"start":744.582,"end":771.427,"text":"請我們的憲法人民這種的權利多非常重要所以我們要為我們國安的問題不像說報告說的只是宣導相關的法律行政中立的訓練希望可以進進才會達到高度的保證還有做到這樣子的中立所以我請教我們的部長"},{"start":772.95,"end":788.775,"text":"你覺得法律人是不是站在聲援正義 還有保障人權還有說我們的法律人的良知是什麼 遵守的良知是什麼"},{"start":790.27,"end":816.675,"text":"委員講的就是我們法律人的一個信念是我們在落實這些的一個信念我想在我們在工作都是憑著這一種的信念才去依法偵辦犯罪去從事我們法定的一個職務的一個處理所以我們法律人我們要法律人要遵守的良知是什麼最後一句是什麼依法處理"},{"start":817.78,"end":843.537,"text":"依法修理 對不對 我們是要為法就是依法處理 伸張正義我們的人權嘛但是呢 實際說法律人的職業的靈魂所以呢 我們希望我們法務部站在專業中立依法行政不違背我們法律人職業的靈魂謝謝"},{"start":846.567,"end":848.364,"text":"好 謝謝麥偉仁那我們接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1061,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時21分）謝謝主席，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：請法務部鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。我們今天要討論的沒有特定個案，要討論的是一個現象，是人民最在意的司法公正與中立的問題。中選會在4月14日稱，針對41名嫌犯偽造簽名或死亡連署的罷免案，已經向高檢察署告發，但是通過新聞媒體我們才知道，也許罷免民進黨立委的領銜人或者關係人已經被帶回偵辦、約談或搜索聲押。依據中選會查的結果，不管是國民黨、民進黨、民眾黨的罷免案，其實都有出現幽靈連署或偽造連署的問題，但是為什麼媒體上鋪天蓋地的都只看見罷綠團體遭到調查？還有其中有15案罷藍團體，以及罷免高虹安市長的偽造簽名案件，目前偵辦的進度如何？手上沒有各地的偵辦概況嗎？還有罷藍的目前是不是只有4月21日基隆林沛祥罷免案在進行查辦？部長可以說明一下嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，反正偵查中的案件，我不會介入、干涉、指導，所以偵辦過程我是不能夠知道的，因為我是管政策的、管法案的，個案偵辦及檢察一體是由最高檢察機關處理。但是我跟委員保證，檢察官在偵辦任何的犯罪，包括這次罷免案的連署問題，我相信檢察官都是本於客觀中立辦案，完全以證據認定犯罪事實及蒐集證據，絕對沒有黨派及特定的立場。"],["麥委員玉珍：很好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們檢調偵辦這些案件……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們知道法務部偵辦不公開，是不是？就是偵辦的過程不公開，但是偵辦後媒體就會知道結果，所以我不知道法務部那邊是不是有傳送機，傳一下就過去，媒體就馬上刊登了，這部分請說明一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，就是完全沒有嘛！"],["麥委員玉珍：完全沒有？所以說要裝監視器在你們的偵辦場地，還是說媒體怎麼那麼神通廣大都會知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體有他們自己的消息來源，有多元的管道，而且……"],["麥委員玉珍：針對偵辦過程消息的管道，法務部是不是應該去查一下哪裡有漏洞呢？什麼叫做秘密？秘密為什麼媒體會知道？這個秘密的概念是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員可能不清楚這個審查，這個審查的資料裡面的內容，當然是偵辦人員，從檢察官、法警、書記官等及司法警察……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們的秘密都不見了，那我們怎麼叫秘密呢？我們一般說偽造文書是違反個資的罪嫌，不等於是一件事情，都要動用強制處罰，還有搜索聲押。罷免案如果法務部收到告發，硬是要用這樣子的力度來偵辦，當然我們也非常尊重，但是我們的執法在各個縣市有沒有同步辦理？你們這麼認真，我們很尊重，所以各個縣市要同步辦理。目前我們看見的就是罷免綠的立委進度有那麼大的落差，讓我們人民覺得是不是罷綠就查，罷藍就沒有查，罷民眾黨的高虹安市長也沒有著落，所以我們嚴重懷疑法務部的認真度在哪裡。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，反正不管任何黨派有涉及犯罪，我們都會依法偵辦，像這一次的罷免連署，41件就是由中選會告發的，這不是檢察官主動偵辦的，這是中選會依照各選委會審查的結果……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們才覺得有那麼多，怎麼那麼奇怪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不分黨派都有在偵辦的。"],["麥委員玉珍：希望法務部秉持人人平等，我們要求的是人人平等，違法就該依法辦理，我們很認同，完全沒有問題，但是我們看到的是，不可能那麼剛好這樣子，因為同樣都是偽造文書，偏偏剛好就是罷綠的就被收押，罷高虹安市長的偽造文書到現在還沒有看到，就是都有，但是沒有看到，這會讓人民對我們的司法有想像的空間。實際上，任何的罷免案有那麼多，不可能只有這樣，所以我們嚴重質疑。我們希望能夠有公信力的司法，檢調要中立，我認為這樣的司法應該要檢討，而不是來跟我反質詢。我們希望司法不單是法而已，同時也有義務對社會跟人民交代，不是說司法的信任就是除了罷免，臺灣的詐騙集團，洗錢、販毒、走私，這些辦不完，對不對？但是我們沒有談個案，大家說你沒有談個案，但是統統都是以一個個案開始嘛！我們看到基隆檢調一大早六點半按門鈴，這樣是擾民啊！他是罪犯還是嫌疑犯嗎？應該要去問他本人是不是有簽名。希望法務部不要讓人民開始有寒蟬效應，叫大家閉嘴。這是不是就是收押人民的權利？政治言論自由是大家的，我們很珍惜，但是那麼極度的去辦理，沒有其他方法了嗎？偵辦查緝金融犯罪，是不是用這樣的精神辦案呢？","部長，你對每位委員的質詢都是回答你不介入，我再請教你，你說沒有個案，不查個案，不講個案嘛，對不對？所以你都群辦嗎？你就分不出不同的族群來辦嗎？還是不分政黨來辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員聽我解釋……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望你要中立，要中立去做這件事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們絕對會嚴守中立。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果因為政治立場而對許多案件產生偏頗，這樣我們對檢調就失去了信任感。對於我們敏感的法務、司法人員及檢調機關是不是嚴守行政中立，這讓我們質疑。我希望法務部辦案要更中立，人民才會覺得司法是我們最信任、最正義的一個部門。請給我1分鐘，部長答復本席。"],["主席：請部長簡短回應。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝，我再重申一次。檢察官嚴守客觀、中立，且不分黨派、勿枉勿縱，剛才委員關心的就是罷免，這個不重要嗎？這個很重要啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：我沒有說不重要啊，我是希望這個要中立。好，如果你說這個很重要，目前對我們國家，對我們人民的傷害，最重要的是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每一項犯罪對社會公益都有侵害。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，很重要，但是我們現在最重要的是什麼嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每一項都很重要。"],["麥委員玉珍：你說每一項，是有哪一項嘛？你舉例出來嘛，有哪一項最重要的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：黑、金、槍、毒、詐。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，你辦了嗎？查了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：怎麼沒辦呢？"],["麥委員玉珍：我們詐騙集團一天詐騙的金額高達3億，一天被詐騙了3億，你辦了嗎？有那麼認真嗎？","另外，現在安插在我們總統旁邊的共諜，你真的辦了嗎？我們國安的問題，有關總統的安危，你有辦了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們把一些我們承辦的相關資料給委員，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，既然你這樣說，如果你真的認為罷免很重要，我要問你幾個問題。你們要去查的是他們簽名是不是本人嘛，對不對？你們要查的是罷免人是不是本人簽名，這是第一個，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，這個就是屬於案件偵辦的問題，我就不談這些了。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你們要去查的諸如：要參加罷免的人是為什麼？他們簽名是不是真的？為什麼要簽名？所要罷免的是誰？罷免的這個人有什麼罪名？你要去查啊，你不能只說他簽名啊，都要查，這樣才是真正的查。還有這個部分有52個人，對這52個人你們都要去查，去調查罪名，這些都要去查才對啊！不能只是查簽名而已，要查他要罷誰。"],["鄭部長銘謙：要勿枉勿縱，當然我們會查犯罪的共同要件。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個全部都要查。"],["鄭部長銘謙：請委員支持。"],["麥委員玉珍：行政中立跟司法獨立說起來是很簡單，但是其中不管是公務人員或調查人員，難免都有自己的價值觀還有立場，所以作為主管機關要避免這樣的情形發生，憲法及人民的各種權利都非常重要，我們顧及國安的問題，不像報告說的只是宣導相關的法律，行政中立的信念希望可以精進，才會達到高度的保證，還有做到中立。請教部長，你覺得法律人是不是站在聲援正義及保障人權的立場？還有法律人的良知是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員講的就是我們法律人的信念，我們在落實這些信念，我們在工作都是憑著這種信念依法偵辦犯罪，從事我們法定的職務。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以法律人要遵守的良知是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依法處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：依法處理，對不對？我們就是要依法處理，伸張正義及人權，事實上，這是法律人職業的靈魂，所以希望法務部站在專業、中立、依法行政的立場，不違背法律人職業的靈魂，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員不在。","林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0733d83ccbd8b57e39ac021369aff85baca7a32b531de3e80ee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"12:23:21 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那萬一發生了 你會如何面對和處理呢 還是有請次長回去 你可不可以特別清查內部 了解外交部裡面是不是還有沒有人該做安全查核 卻沒有做的那請次長務必趕快把外交部發生共諜的這個廓網把它補起來 可以嗎"},{"start":100.758,"end":121.212,"text":"當然,我們這次的事情聲表遺憾,也感覺到我們有必要再更加的加強內部的作為所以我們也會跟行政院、會同考試院共同制定的涉及國家安全或重大利益公共人員的特殊查核辦法"},{"start":122.052,"end":126.693,"text":"希望能夠透過相關辦法的精進擴大我們的查核的範圍增進我們的查核的能量那能夠去有效的防堵未來的相關事件繼續發生好那因為本席是替你們的部長擔心啦不要到時候跟前部長吳釗燮一樣木蘭回首的時候都發現共諜就在身邊畢竟兩岸啊現在的局勢很緊張中共在國際上對台灣又不斷的打壓"},{"start":149.778,"end":155.059,"text":"所以台灣整個的處境其實外交處境是非常的嚴峻的然後相信你知道這個社界這部李安導演所演的這個諜戰情色懸疑的電影吧應該有聽過嘛相信我們外交人員就好像是無煙消戰場上面的戰士都是一樣的經常單獨在國外面對嚴峻的外交挑戰不但背負莫大的國家的壓力重點很多外交人員都是獨自一個人赴任所以其實跟家人都是分開的"},{"start":179.864,"end":193.649,"text":"所以要特別注意因為是不是會被對岸吸收更多這種有可能的因素所以總之本席還是在這邊要特別的提醒次長也同時要提醒今天在座的各位首長畢竟你們的身份比較特殊都是在維護國家安全的重要的位置上面所以務必要隨時提高警戒小心共諜就在身邊可以嗎"},{"start":203.473,"end":219.419,"text":"是當然 那麼不過也跟委員報告我相信前後任的部長大概都有一樣的一個心態那麼我們絕對是盡忠職守忠於國家那麼發生這樣的事情我想在制度上面我們都需要檢討精進那麼他們不是所願那麼自己再帶進這樣的一個狀況進來這個地方這個請委員能夠了解那麼在相關的這個作為方面"},{"start":232.284,"end":258.778,"text":"包括我們外交的這個副任那麼提供注意隨時注意他的身心的狀況隨時注意他的這個交友的狀況這是外交部持續在做的一個努力但是一定這個有制度有辦法一定還是有破網那麼我們會持續的精進同時不斷的透過我們的內部的教育對於副任人員的持續的這個教育那這是我們教育我們這個外交部持續在進行的工作"},{"start":259.209,"end":263.532,"text":"好 謝謝那我下一個有請國安局副局長"},{"start":273.53,"end":297.404,"text":"副局長今天本席有認真看你們的書面報告相信副局長你對今天的書面報告內容應該是也是有看過了嘛是不是但是副局長看過報告之後你有沒有一種熟悉的感覺就是你知道為什麼本席會這樣說呢因為今天看到書面報告的時候神奇的事情就來了局長你看一下這邊的一面的資料的時候是今天國安局的報告另外一份的話是今年1月12號國安局的報告"},{"start":300.226,"end":303.369,"text":"那國安局報告的時候是放在官網上的共諜案滲透手法分析報告然後我比對了一下這兩份報告標記化綠色的部分竟然都是一模一樣的所以當然就是只有說有一個就是第五身份掩護接觸政府人員當然是"},{"start":318.54,"end":338.914,"text":"這個就是中共用掩護身份接觸到我們政府官員還有民意代表這是寫得很誠實啦就是最近都被抓到的共諜嘛那副局長我本席想要了解一下就是國安局同仁都是為了兩岸緊張的諜報的工作大家都很用心是值得嘉獎的但是國安局的報告不是一直都是寫得不錯嗎但是今天國安局竟然會淪落到抄襲這樣還發揮了超能力還開始抄襲之前的報告那副局長今天這樣的業務和報告的撰寫"},{"start":349.881,"end":365.592,"text":"我想我們今天的這個報告是我們這個近幾年來的一個中共的一個滲透又拉的一個手法來做一個報告當然它是一個累積的還有新的手法那如果新的手法新的手段當然我們會再繼續呈現"},{"start":367.293,"end":383.762,"text":"好因為現在陸續發生太多的共諜事件一定會有很多新的情況那是不是說叫我們只要上網去看就這樣一字不漏的這樣都看到之前的我想說現在新的情況是真的很多我想說以後在這報告上面可能是還是要麻煩還是要認真一點用符合議題排定的內容來再做一個比較好的報告這樣可以做得到嗎好謝謝指導好謝謝那接下來我請國防部顧部長"},{"start":404.347,"end":428.02,"text":"是 林委員部長好 剛才詢問國安局的問題 但是我還是一樣請教一下部長國防部包含全部所有的單位 目前有沒有正在偵辦當中但還沒有被媒體爆出來的共諜案 有還是沒有我想有關司法調查中的個案 我想我們不宜在這裡做任何的披露"},{"start":429.993,"end":447.806,"text":"如果是說像部長說的如果偵查不公開的話那具體內容本席這邊可能就不多問了但是說未來如果這幾個案子有結果國防部能不能夠主動的提交書面的說明給本委員會書面一些報告呢"},{"start":449.093,"end":476.346,"text":"您是說個案嗎?對,如果幾個案子有結果的話因為剛才部長說嘛現在偵查不公開嘛後面有結果的話那是不是我們有資格權利就是國安部能不能主動提交這些書面說明呢?給本委員會呢?我想因為就相關的這些報告的這個內容如果在在"},{"start":478.871,"end":490.061,"text":"不機敏的這個前提之下,我想應該可以提供但是如果是涉及機敏的不公開的話,這可能我們要考量"},{"start":491.192,"end":500.578,"text":"好 本期還是希望都不要有啦當然也是希望說可以保持不要再有共諜的事件主席再給我一點時間謝謝那我再請教部長一下就是說相信全台民眾現在都很關心我們的潛艦國造的事情因為按照期程規劃應該是在這個月就要開始進行了海策但是那因為之前審查預算的時候朝野各黨團"},{"start":516.129,"end":522.295,"text":"都有提案要求國防部要等海昆號通過海測之後才能動用114年的後續件的預算等到海測進度確定不會影響之後才會同意讓這整個預算解凍但是現在已經是月底了那請問開始海測了沒還是有沒有稍微延後呢還沒有開始"},{"start":539.648,"end":561.226,"text":"所以畢竟我們這是第一次造潛艦那測試過程中當然會有一些非預期的缺失要改正那部長我想請問一下目前還有哪些缺失需要改正的呢委員我想這個部分也不適宜在這裡做如果私下委員想要了解我們再跟委員做一個機敏的專報"},{"start":562.315,"end":565.978,"text":"因為我想這個應該不是機敏吧因為這個說這些要改正的問題應該是大家說應該是都可以知道的吧因為現在到底進度在哪裡因為現在的問題真的是或許現在都是共諜案已經把這一個潛艦的國造的案子已經蓋過去了但是我想說"},{"start":581.351,"end":584.052,"text":"這個東西我覺得國防部應該是還是有責任吧要向大家報告吧還有後續還有一個2840億這一筆預算其實非常非常的大先前就有傳出國防部想要把潛艦這個預算從公務預算移到特別預算新聞來源當然是國安人士啦我想這個記者也不敢隨便憑空捏造那我想要請問部長"},{"start":604.676,"end":610.219,"text":"你們目前研議的結果是真的打算這樣做嗎還是要看潛艦的測試進度呢是不是會排除這樣的可能性還是真的有這樣的可能性呢"},{"start":618.484,"end":642.737,"text":"您是說排入今年的特別預算嗎不是就是這種興建案從公務預算想要移到特別預算因為這種過去都是有這樣的案例無論是技術難度還是預算的金額還是執行的期程其實以前都有這樣的案例而且以前都是比這一次前建國造的預算額度技術難度都是更高的所以"},{"start":643.337,"end":668.213,"text":"因為現在原型艦的部分在渤港測試的這個缺失的改善還沒有全數的完成那我們等到這個渤港測試全數完成海測通過之後那我們才比較有把握來進行下一階段那就這個部分我們在考量這個時候再考量那會從購物預算把這個整個移到特別預算嗎"},{"start":669.402,"end":690.453,"text":"目前因為海撤還沒有開始進行那海撤的結果還不知道所以我們現在沒有辦法說要把它擺入到特別預算那請問什麼時候要進行海撤呢當初部長也是說從四月份嘛對不對當初大家都是知道的現在到四月了已經四月底了到現在還沒有海撤進度會不會太延後了吧"},{"start":695.89,"end":724.865,"text":"我們還是以安全為前提所以我們還是要先確認所有相關的這個博港測試的這一些測試都能夠擋到安全無疑的情況之下我們才會准他們進行海測本席最後還是提醒人民的納稅錢是民脂民膏請部長務必要遵守財政紀律不要把人民的血汗錢當作私房錢還有小金庫再獨享浪費公帑可以嗎"},{"start":725.707,"end":742.84,"text":"我們非常的謹慎而且經營業在看待我們這個原型建的建造這個是非常重要的一件事情所以我們每個禮拜都在督管這件事情"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（12時23分）謝謝主席，有請外交部次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：次長好。因為外交部的共諜案，相信今天大家都是問一樣的問題。本席還是要再和次長確認一次，次長，你今天在這邊有信心向本席和本委員會的全體委員明確保證，確定身邊都沒有共諜，也保證整個部會都沒有共諜嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：以中共的積極作為，只能說我們會持續精進對應的方法，第二個，我們會加強相關同仁的保防意識。要我保證沒有任何共諜，我想就現在的狀況，這大概不是一個特別實際的做法。我們假設同仁都是盡忠職守、都是忠於國家，我們是用這樣的假設進行，但是相關的調查工作、保防措施、政風做法，我們都會持續精進，希望做到符合委員的要求。"],["林委員憶君：萬一發生了，你們會如何面對和處理呢？還有，次長回去之後可不可以特別清查內部，了解外交部裡面是不是還有人該做安全查核卻沒有做，請次長務必趕快把之前外交部發生共諜問題的破網補起來，可以嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：當然，一定。這一次的事情，我們深表遺憾，也感覺到我們有必要再加強內部的作為。所以我們也會針對行政院會同考試院共同制定的涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法，希望能夠透過相關辦法的精進，擴大查核的範圍，增進查核的能量，有效防堵未來相關事件繼續發生。"],["林委員憶君：本席是替你們部長擔心啦！"],["陳次長明祺：感謝。"],["林委員憶君：不要到時候和前部長吳釗燮一樣，驀然回首發現共諜就在身邊。畢竟兩岸現在的局勢很緊張，中共在國際上對臺灣不斷打壓，臺灣的外交處境非常嚴峻。你知道李安導演拍攝的諜戰情色懸疑電影「色戒」吧？應該有聽過嘛！外交人員就好像是無煙硝戰場上的戰士，經常單獨在國外面對嚴峻的外交挑戰，背負莫大的國家壓力，而且很多外交人員都是獨自赴任，和家人分開，所以要特別注意是不是會被對岸吸收，要注意相關可能的因素。","總之本席要特別提醒次長，也要同時提醒今天在座的各位首長，畢竟你們的身分比較特殊，都是處於維護國家安全的重要位置，所以務必隨時提高警戒，小心共諜就在身邊。可以嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是，當然。不過也要向委員報告，我相信前後任的部長大概都是一樣的心態，我們絕對是盡忠職守、忠於國家。發生這樣的事情，在制度上面，我們都需要檢討精進，而且這也不是他們所願，他們也不希望自己把這樣的狀況帶進來，請委員能夠了解。在相關作為方面，包括外交人員赴任時，要隨時注意他的身心狀況、交友狀況，這是外交部持續在做的努力。但即使有制度、有辦法，一定還是會有破口，我們會持續精進，同時不斷透過內部教育，包括對赴任人員的持續教育，這是外交部持續在進行的工作。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：下一個有請國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：副局長好。今天本席有認真看你們的書面報告，副局長應該也看過今天的書面報告內容，是不是？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["林委員憶君：副局長看過報告之後，有沒有一種熟悉的感覺？為什麼本席會這樣說？因為今天看到書面報告的時候，神奇的事情發生了，請副局長看一下。這邊的資料是今天國安局的報告，另外一份則是今年1月12日國安局的報告，國安局的報告就是放在官網上的「共諜案滲透手法分析報告」。","本席比對了一下，這兩份報告劃綠色的標記部分竟然一模一樣。第五項利用身分掩護，接觸政府人員，這個就是中共用掩護的身分，接觸我們的政府官員和民意代表，這部分寫的很誠實啦！就是最近被抓到的共諜嘛！副局長，本席想要了解一下，國安局同仁為了兩岸緊張的諜報工作，大家都很用心，這是值得嘉獎的，而且國安局的報告不是一直都寫的不錯嗎？可是今天國安局竟然淪落到抄襲，發揮抄能力開始抄襲之前的報告。副局長，今天這樣的業務報告是不是應該好好檢討一下呢？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們今天的報告是針對近幾年來中共滲透誘拉的手法進行報告，當然，它是累積的，另外還有新的手法，如果有新的手法、新的手段，我們會繼續呈現。"],["林委員憶君：因為陸續發生太多共諜事件，所以一定會有很多新情況，但這不是叫我們直接上網看的理由，也不能這樣一字不漏，只讓我們看到之前的內容，因為現在新的狀況真的很多。以後報告可能還是要認真一點寫，要符合排定的議題內容，做一份比較好的報告。可以做到嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：好，謝謝指導。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。接下來請國防部顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。剛才詢問國安局的問題，本席一樣請教一下部長，國防部所有的單位，目前有沒有正在偵辦當中，但還沒有被媒體爆出來的共諜案？有還是沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：有關司法調查中的個案，我們不宜在這裡做任何披露。"],["林委員憶君：如果是因為部長說的偵查不公開，本席就不多問具體內容，但是未來這幾個案子如果有結果，國防部能不能主動提交書面報告給本委員會呢？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說個案嗎？"],["林委員憶君：對，如果這幾個案子有結果的話。因為剛才部長說現在偵查不公開，如果之後有結果的話，我們是不是有知的權利？國防部能不能主動提交這些書面說明給本委員會呢？"],["顧部長立雄：就相關報告的內容來說，在不涉及機敏的前提之下，我想應該可以提供，但是如果涉及機敏或不能公開的部分，我們可能就要考量。"],["林委員憶君：好，本席希望不要再有共諜事件啦！主席，再給本席一點時間，謝謝。再請教部長，相信全臺民眾現在都很關心潛艦國造的事情，因為按照期程規劃，這個月應該就要開始進行海測，但是因為之前審查預算的時候，朝野各黨團都有提案，要求國防部等海鯤號通過海測之後，才能動用114年的後續艦預算，等到海測進度確定不會影響之後，才會同意讓整筆預算解凍。但是現在已經月底了，請問開始海測了嗎？有沒有稍微延後呢？"],["顧部長立雄：還沒有開始。"],["林委員憶君：畢竟我們是第一次造潛艦嘛！測試過程中當然會有一些非預期的缺失要改正。部長，本席想請問一下，目前還有哪些缺失需要改正呢？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我想這個部分也不適宜在這裡說明，如果委員想要了解，我們私下再向委員做機敏專報，好嗎？"],["林委員憶君：本席認為這個部分應該不是機敏吧？這些要改正的問題，大家應該都可以知道吧？現在進度到底到哪裡？或許現在因為共諜案，所以潛艦國造的案子被蓋過去，但是本席認為這部分國防部還是有責任要向大家報告吧！後續還有一筆2,840億元的預算，這筆預算非常大，先前就有傳出國防部想要把潛艦預算從公務預算移到特別預算，新聞來源當然是國安人士啦！因為記者不敢隨便憑空捏造。","本席想要請問部長，你們目前研議的結果，是真的打算這樣做嗎？還是要看潛艦的測試進度呢？是不是會排除這樣的可能性？還是真的有這樣的可能性呢？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說排入今年的特別預算嗎？"],["林委員憶君：不是。就是把這種新建案從公務預算移到特別預算，因為過去有這樣的案例，無論是技術難度，還是預算金額、執行期程，其實以前都有這樣的案例，而且以前都是比這次潛艦國造的預算額度、技術難度更高的案子，所以……"],["顧部長立雄：因為現在原型艦的部分，泊港測試的缺失改善還沒有全數完成，我們要等到泊港測試全數完成，海測通過之後，才比較有把握進行下一階段，到時候我們會再考量這個部分。"],["林委員憶君：會把這一筆從公務預算整個移到特別預算嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為海測還沒有開始進行，不知道海測的結果如何，所以我們現在沒有辦法把它擺到特別預算。"],["林委員憶君：請問什麼時候要進行海測呢？因為當初部長也是說4月份，這是大家都知道的，現在已經4月底，但是到現在還沒有海測，進度未免太落後了吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是以安全為前提，所以我們要先確認所有泊港測試都能夠達到安全無虞的情況，才會准他們進行海測。"],["林委員憶君：好。本席最後還是要提醒，人民的納稅錢是民脂民膏，請部長務必遵守財政紀律，不要把人民的血汗錢當作私房錢和小金庫獨享，或者浪費公帑。可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。我們非常謹慎，而且兢兢業業在看待原型艦的建造，這是非常重要的事情，所以我們每個禮拜都在督管這件事情。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員上臺質詢。","以上已登記質詢委員，除不在場外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有林岱樺委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，請相關機關以書面於二週內答復。委員另指定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}},{"id":"160563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0af912bdcd782c5b016f08763592c0c24ca7a32b531de3e80472786d5621fa9625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:23:55 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謝謝召委那我們是不是有請文化部次長好 有請次長文豪"},{"start":18.281,"end":31.668,"text":"市長 我想要延續前幾次針對國內的影視的IP台灣有好多影視的IP 但是都少了發揚光大所以我在這裡 我要講一下 這個明花園好厲害"},{"start":33.969,"end":53.352,"text":"這個明華園他們過去就是有一個很著名的IP就是家慶君由台灣他現在家慶君由台灣這間對年輕人沒有吸引力的所以他們現在就把這個轉生異世界投身為家慶君發現我的祖先是詐騙集團"},{"start":54.993,"end":80.744,"text":"這是明華園最新的劇喔你看它有多少梗啊年輕人最喜歡的轉生梗異世界梗然後還有這個平行宇宙然後還有時事詐騙集團所以你看它的故事我寫在這裡我不要說不然很多人要去看這個表現就可以知道所以你可以知道說這個就是一個IP經過惡創然後就會吸引到更多的族群來看"},{"start":81.844,"end":94.156,"text":"所以我覺得文化部你就是要去大量去尋找台灣有用的IP那我上一次事實上我跟部長在聊的時候我講了蔡謙串謙與串謙罵的故事串謙與串謙罵的這是台灣最有名的"},{"start":100.282,"end":127.092,"text":"大海盜,雖然他中國,但是他很多的發展都在台灣所以包括說在媽祖媽祖有四個天后宮,都說是川崎還是川崎媽建造的因為他們當時蔡遷他為了要跟清朝打仗跟他的宿敵叫做李長庚打仗所以他為了跟李長庚打仗他就需要了這一些商人商人,所以他有叫做免捷券"},{"start":128.252,"end":145.05,"text":"他會免結券就是說,你生意人如果聽我,我就不理你太怕所以他都用生意人,他都用那些商船,把我撞上去,就陷上了病了這些商船也很樂於說,來收聽這個事件因為他們處理的安全,都事件很縱橫的,他叫做海防隊"},{"start":150.716,"end":166.986,"text":"海皇帝 結果他就縱橫了整個台灣海峽甚至咧 他的宿敵李長庚 主要是在蔡牽岳割陣的時候咧 去娶嫁媽 娶嫁媽很可怕的主要是一炮打捧屍 捧屍一堆黑水膏"},{"start":168.403,"end":174.387,"text":"所以現在在澎湖可以看到很多拆遷,他的天后宮,建廟的都是剉剷在這個天后宮,東營的天后宮就有一尊神明叫做什麼?李邁大王"},{"start":183.814,"end":191.117,"text":"那時候叫李邁大王出來說,他在配合,前面要來打獵的時候,他很看得到,他很看得到,在配合檔案的一個沙頭,怎麼有一個農夫砍一隻牛在那裡賣,他很氣的看,氣的看,沒看到那個農夫,結果他看到的是清朝的船來了,他就走了。"},{"start":207.584,"end":212.609,"text":"所以這就是一個故事,你看現在在東營,這個李邁大王,這個神也還在好,這說回來,我們現在,我們當初,當初呢,我們有一個叫做好人宮好人宮呢,有一尊寶,這尊寶在這裡,他叫做替罪將軍"},{"start":225.905,"end":233.849,"text":"他也是新民喔 你如果要求事業發達 你就要來拜天祭將軍為什麼他好人狂呢 因為川崎有一個寶河他住在東州的五郊村所以五郊村我們過去都有說他是一個海盜村就是川崎一個很強的寶河 住在五郊那時候是三大廚 含婚姻的 靠偶那兩個裝在對決的時候"},{"start":254.339,"end":259.343,"text":"這個五個的這個人,主要是帶錢送給他的炮,送給這個城堂,這個城堂主要用這個炮,沒有造成傷亡,因為他把那個炮打出來,然後對方就說,喔,你的火力比較強,這樣我不要跟你們打,我們來和解。"},{"start":271.732,"end":277.173,"text":"所以後來就化解了兩個村莊的恩怨所以這一尊大砲 那個日本時代說也在口腔因為怕被日本人破壞 後來我們外國人看到這個炮彈撈出來撈出來後來說 你看 它就整個 它就結心所以大家 動作 它就神格化就變這個鐵嘴將軍 鐵嘴將軍所以你看這個故事很正的 我說到現在 要說一半"},{"start":299.818,"end":308.903,"text":"我剛才說的,都是海產這邊喔你知不知道,抓他的那個李長庚李長庚他的,他就是給他出錢罵,給他打死的要出錢的,就給李長庚的大寶蝦叫做什麼人,你們知道嗎你們不知道對不對,你們都不知道,真沒差啦他的這個寶蝦,後來就產評蔡謙,他叫做王德祿"},{"start":327.998,"end":342.73,"text":"王德祿這個人王德祿這個人他藏污過林選文的一個事件然後產評蔡謙有很大的功勞所以後來清朝家慶家慶封地大家封作太子太保封作太子太保所以現在家儀館我們的憲制所在地在哪裡太保太保是"},{"start":352.842,"end":363.372,"text":"那就是在想台灣的故事啊這個王德路現在他種的地方在新港跟六甲的高架那個地方叫做環博那時候我們要種在環博 要種在新港的安和村種在環博 它是台灣最大的私人的一個文物"},{"start":377.193,"end":382.654,"text":"因為那時候翁德祿就是台灣在清朝做過最大的貿易就是他做過最大的貿易所以他就要進入環保所以你看他那裡有很多古蹟你說台灣有王德祿的一個寺廟然後都有這個王德祿的墓園像我剛才說的川崎他在媽祖留下了這麼多的媽祖廟"},{"start":403.059,"end":416.422,"text":"他在淡水,他在台南的鹿鴻門那裡,都有插牽東西,他的海產的軍隊,那不是軍隊,他的海產的策隊,策隊部署的地方,這有夠好的個數啊!我剛才跟他說,很多人都叫我這個個數說給你聽,很多人,我剛才加水,很多人說,所以我覺得這個IP有夠好,要去發展。"},{"start":431.65,"end":439.1,"text":"說到娶娶媽 她就越來越精采娶娶媽以前 她們是老闆娘娶娶媽比較愛飄飄 每天都住在別的女人家"},{"start":444.544,"end":462.495,"text":"都夜宿其他人家啦,所以串謙一次去剃頭的時候,說這個女孩子這麼漂亮,一打賣起來,變成山寨夫人串謙媽就對串謙就開始賤金做海產,她就老,老賤,老官吏,所以串謙媽也很有名"},{"start":464.156,"end":473.393,"text":"這裡有很多故事,然後留下很多俚語包括我們現在在跟孩子說,孩子太壞,吃不乖就說串燒要來,比較黑就要串燒"},{"start":477.489,"end":502.97,"text":"這有很多這樣的理由,還是怎樣?這樣的事情沒辦法發展成IP,發展成很好的故事連我們台灣有這麼多的市民都是這個故事演出下來的這也不是故事,是歷史事件,對不對?我們家裡的爹娘太保就是王德祿,剷除蔡謙有功勞我們文化部說的就是說,事實上我經常這樣說有人對我說,有導演覺得說這個可以來拍"},{"start":507.774,"end":519.269,"text":"來拍很好的一個劇所以我在這裡我想要演出說但是這個故事說到前方我也希望我們文化部要大力支持屬於台灣在地元素的IP這樣好不好"},{"start":520.151,"end":541.861,"text":"非常謝謝委員的故事跟指教跟委員說明我們非常非常希望台灣這一類的原創型的歷史內容文化內容可以IP化但是在IP化它有一個過程譬如說像委員剛剛說的故事它可能需要先變成小說漫畫或劇本它才有可能做更多更完整的發展所以在這些的"},{"start":542.761,"end":569.924,"text":"過程裡面文化部都會盡可能的去推動那也希望在這些跟台灣的地方跟台灣在地歷史發展有關的文化內容可以更被有效率的整理出來成為未來IP化的內容基礎市長所以就這樣嘛你看有的嘉慶君由台灣這一個這個應該也不是事實啦可是一個傳言嘉慶君由台灣所以要有創作者的頭目你看明花園就大家變成說轉生為異世界投胎變嘉慶君"},{"start":570.845,"end":578.229,"text":"是然後還把詐騙梗說去哪裡發現我的祖先在嘉慶郡來台灣的時候我的祖先是詐騙集團啊我變成嘉慶郡這樣我要把我的祖先抓起來還是不要的是啊所以委員這都已經二創加一個年輕人會喜歡的這些梗都進來了"},{"start":589.295,"end":613.374,"text":"是 我覺得您剛剛的故事要寫下來我們才有第一個文本可以發展可以變繪本的漫畫片IP我剛才說這麼多就是希望這些故事你們幫我奉送出去啦沒有啦 創作者要下樓來啦是啦 是啦就是文化部鼓勵更多創作者去尋找台灣元素的IP台灣有很多很讚的故事即使我們過去我們都說中國的故事比較讚啦我們都看中國故事我們都看日本的戰國時代我們都忘記台灣有這麼多我們也有大海盜的時代啊"},{"start":619.199,"end":625.23,"text":"陳正之龍啦,對不對,還有蔡謙啦,這些大海盜都是台灣存在的故事啊好不好,好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":940,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時24分）謝謝召委。有請文化部次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我要延續前幾次針對國內影視IP的議題。臺灣有好多影視IP，但是都缺乏發揚光大，所以我在這裡要提明華園好厲害！明華園過去有一個很著名的IP，就是《嘉慶君遊臺灣》，但現在《嘉慶君遊臺灣》對年輕人已經沒有吸引力了，所以他們就把這個作品轉化為《轉生到異世界成為嘉慶君──發現我的祖先是詐騙集團！？》這是明華園最新的劇喔！你看，它有多少哏啊！有年輕人最喜歡的轉生哏、異世界哏，然後還有平行宇宙以及時事：詐騙集團。你看它的故事，我寫在這裡、不要用講的，去看表演就會知道。所以我們知道這就是一個IP經過二創，就會吸引到更多族群來看，我覺得文化部就是要去大量尋找臺灣有用的IP。","事實上，我上次跟部長聊的時候講到蔡牽跟蔡牽媽的故事。蔡牽跟蔡牽媽是臺灣最有名的大海盜，雖然來自中國，不過他的發展都在臺灣，包括馬祖有4座天后宮據說都是蔡牽或蔡牽媽建造的。蔡牽當時為了跟清朝打仗、跟他的宿敵李長庚打仗，需要商人，所以發放免劫券，免劫券的作用就是生意人如果挺他，他就不搶劫他們。他都用那些生意人的商船、裝上砲彈，就跟清朝「拚」了，這些商人為了出海安全，也很樂於挺蔡牽。結果蔡牽縱橫一時，自稱海皇帝，縱橫整個臺灣海峽。蔡牽的宿敵李長庚跟蔡牽決戰的時候，甚至被蔡牽媽……蔡牽媽很能戰，李長庚就是被蔡牽媽用砲彈炸死在黑水溝。所以現在你在澎湖可以看到很多蔡牽建立的天后宮，也就是建廟者都是蔡牽。在東引天后宮還有一尊神明叫犁麥大王，為什麼叫犁麥大王？據蔡牽說，當他在澎湖、清朝要來抓他的時候，他看到澎湖東引一處山頭竟有一個農夫牽著一頭牛，正在犁那裏的麥子，結果他上前一看，沒看到那個農夫，看到的是清朝的船來了，所以他逃離了。這就是一個故事，東引犁麥大王這尊神也還在。","再回頭講我們東石。東石有一座福靈宮，福靈宮有一尊砲，叫做鐵嘴將軍。祂也是神明喔！祈求事業發達就要拜鐵嘴將軍。為什麼祂在福靈宮呢？蔡牽有一名部下，住在東石的鰲鼓庄，鰲鼓庄過去人稱海盜村，就是因為蔡牽這一名很重要的部下住在鰲鼓。當時三塊厝跟雲林口湖一帶有兩個庄對決，鰲鼓這個人就把蔡牽送給他們的砲送給其中一庄，這個庄就因為有了這具砲而沒有傷亡。因為砲一打出去，就讓對方驚呼火力怎麼這麼強，不願再跟他們打而要求和解，於是雙方和解，化解了兩個村莊的恩怨。這尊大砲日治時代被埋在地下，因為怕被日本人破壞，後來有人把這座砲挖出來，發現依舊如新，於是將其神格化，稱為鐵嘴將軍。","你看，這些故事很多耶！我講到現在才講了一半，剛剛講的都是海賊這邊的故事喔！抓蔡牽的李長庚就是被蔡牽媽打死的，最後蔡牽就被李長庚的重要部下，是什麼人你們知道嗎？你們不知道對不對？你看，你們都不知道，很可惜啦！他這個部下後來就剷平蔡牽，叫做王得祿。"],["王次長時思：喔！王得䘵。"],["蔡委員易餘：王得祿這個人參與過林爽文事件，因為剷平蔡牽立下很大的功勞，後來清朝嘉慶皇帝封他為太子太保。所以現在嘉義縣的縣治所在地在哪裡？"],["王次長時思：太保。"],["蔡委員易餘：太保市，對吧？這就是臺灣實際上的故事啊！王得祿所葬的地方在新港與六腳交界，那個地方叫做番婆。當時為什麼要葬在番婆？為什麼要葬在新港的安和村、葬在番婆呢？它是臺灣最大的私人墳墓，因為王得祿是當時在清朝當官的臺灣人中官位最大的，所以他被葬在番婆。當地也有很多古蹟，譬如說王得祿寺廟、王得祿墓園，還有像我剛剛講的，蔡牽在馬祖留下了這麼多媽祖廟，在淡水、臺南鹿耳門也都有蔡牽當時的海賊軍隊……喔！那不是軍隊，而是海賊賊隊部署的地方。這就是很好的故事啊！我上次講給部長聽，結果很多人都叫我把這個故事講完。我覺得這個IP有夠好，應該要去發展。","談到蔡牽媽就更精采了。蔡牽媽原本的丈夫是剃頭師傅，不過蔡牽媽比較風流，每天都住在其他男人的家裡、夜宿其他男人家啦！蔡牽有一次去剃頭，發現這個女孩這麼漂亮，便把她買下，變成山寨夫人，蔡牽媽跟了蔡牽，也開始打仗、當海賊。由於蔡牽媽能幹、善戰、又會管理，所以也很有名。這裡有很多故事、留下很多俚語，包括我們跟小孩講的，要是孩子胡鬧、不乖，講不聽，大人就說蔡牽要來了、「再惡都惡不過蔡牽」等等，有很多俚語，那為什麼這些事情沒辦法發展成IP、發展成很好的故事？連臺灣有這麼多神明都是這個故事延續下來的，何況這也不是故事，而是歷史事件，對吧？包括我們嘉義的地名「太保」就是來自王得祿剷除蔡牽有功勞。","我要跟文化部講的就是，在我上次這樣講之後，事實上就有人跟我說有導演覺得這個題材可以拍出很好的劇，所以我才想延續、把這個故事講完整。我也希望文化部大力支持屬於臺灣在地元素的IP，這樣好嗎？"],["王次長時思：非常謝謝委員的故事跟指教。我跟委員說明，我們非常、非常希望臺灣這類原創型的歷史內容、文化內容可以IP化，但是IP化有其過程，譬如說委員剛剛講的故事，可能需要先變成小說、漫畫或劇本，才有可能做更多、更完整的發展。在這些過程裡面，文化部都會盡可能推動，也希望這些跟臺灣在地歷史發展有關的文化內容可以更有效率地被整理出來，成為未來IP化的內容。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！次長，就是這樣嘛！嘉慶君遊臺灣有些內容應該也不是事實，而是傳言……"],["王次長時思：所以要有創作者的投入。"],["蔡委員易餘：你看明華園就把它變成轉生到異世界、投胎變嘉慶君的題材，還結合詐騙哏，改編成主角發現祖先在嘉慶君來臺灣的時候是詐騙集團，而他變身嘉慶君，那麼他要把自己的祖先抓起來還是不抓？"],["王次長時思：是啊！所以，委員，您剛剛講的故事要考慮把它寫下來。"],["蔡委員易餘：你看，這都已經是二創，而且年輕人會喜歡的這些哏都融進來了耶！"],["王次長時思：是，委員剛剛講的故事要寫下來，我們才有第一個文本可以發展、可以變成繪本、發展成IP。"],["蔡委員易餘：我剛才講那麼多，就是希望你們幫我把這些故事放送出去啦！"],["王次長時思：不，是創作者要寫下來啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：是啦！是啦！"],["王次長時思：非常謝謝委員的指教。"],["蔡委員易餘：文化部要鼓勵更多創作者去尋找具有臺灣元素的IP。"],["王次長時思：是，臺灣的原生故事。"],["蔡委員易餘：臺灣有很多很棒的故事，只是我們過去總說中國的故事比較棒，我們都看中國和日本戰國時代的故事，卻忘記臺灣有這麼多故事，我們也有大海盜時代啊！像鄭芝龍啊，對不對？還有蔡牽，這些大海盜都是臺灣存在的故事啊！"],["王次長時思：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？"],["王次長時思：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，次長請回。","接下來請邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","請顏寬恒、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另外有徐欣瑩委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}},{"id":"160562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0a885e060cc736624c0f390e692fb4f24ca7a32b531de3e800c1acf7fe19f66a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:20:11 - 12:31:36","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T12:20:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T12:31:36+08:00","duration":685,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.87846875,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.42659375,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.51096875,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.35409375,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.37096875,"end":11.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.47221875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.657843750000001,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.15784375,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.621593750000002,"end":36.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.58221875,"end":48.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.900968750000004,"end":62.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.329093750000006,"end":67.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.48034375,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.94846875,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.06221875,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.41221875000001,"end":74.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.44534375,"end":79.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.86659375,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.10284375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.92096875,"end":83.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.39659375000001,"end":107.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.01596875,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.72721875,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.84096875,"end":122.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.15659375000001,"end":116.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.28284375000001,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.20159375,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.43284375000002,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.39034375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.32971875,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.00846875000002,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.74034375000002,"end":159.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.71471875,"end":163.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.83659375000002,"end":172.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.81409375,"end":185.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.92721875,"end":181.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.67721875,"end":202.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.58846875,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.68284375000002,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.77721875,"end":230.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.93159375000002,"end":233.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.00284375,"end":234.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.71159375000002,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.58409375000002,"end":242.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.01409375000003,"end":245.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.32159375,"end":247.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.58284375000002,"end":250.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.37596875000003,"end":249.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.15221875,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.87284375000002,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.56409375000004,"end":260.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.94346875,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.97721875,"end":263.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.03596875,"end":265.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.65159375,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.09409375,"end":281.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.60721875,"end":288.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.34971875,"end":282.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.53909375,"end":285.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.33221875000004,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.66534375000003,"end":289.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.23471875,"end":289.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次長早我想大家都很關心的是美國川普總統又出招了4月21號他在自己的社群平台上又發了文他所在意的非關稅壁壘總共有八項這個次長都很了解是"},{"start":27.657,"end":48.045,"text":"他講的這八項簡單來說就是第一個匯率操控第二個作為關稅的加值型業稅的補貼或傾銷出口補貼或其他類型的政府補貼農業保護措施科技上的保護措施標準還有竊取智慧財產權以及稀產地有八項"},{"start":49.245,"end":71.938,"text":"這八項跟財政不有關的我也非常關心的就是川普點名的政府補助還有補貼甚至把加值稅稱為有關稅作用的加值稅這三項顯然都會直接影響台灣目前可能要接下去跟他談判的內容所以我想問一下次長目前為止你認為這八項有哪幾項台灣會中標"},{"start":75.686,"end":95.684,"text":"目前可能就是他提到這個加值稅的部分吧有關稅作用的增值稅是哪樣的加值稅或增值稅我們自己請估可能就是消費稅貨物稅或者消費稅所以今天討論的貨物稅可能就是他所指的標的之一"},{"start":96.685,"end":122.35,"text":"所以貨物稅會被算在內那加值營業稅或其他的稅可能都會受到影響那現在我們針對美國的相關的進口包括小麥 大麥 玉米 黃豆我們現在是減免他的所謂的營業稅那接下去他會不會要我們全免啊或者是這會不會是他談判的籌碼之一啊"},{"start":124.117,"end":139.805,"text":"据我们所了解好像因为我们加值税其实很低我们就不是现在是有针对美国来免那我们是不是也可以拿这个拿来当谈判筹码说这其实是我们给美国产品的很大的优惠不单单只是我们占你的便宜你也占我们的便宜"},{"start":140.507,"end":143.189,"text":"冷凍牛肉22項商品的進口關稅稅率減半已經從2021年到現在4年了"},{"start":160.785,"end":171.948,"text":"我們如果美國政府拿來做相關跟我們要談判關稅的時候我們針對這個冷凍牛肉我們還是要繼續減半還是以後就不蒸了還是什麼"},{"start":173.221,"end":201.674,"text":"因為我們這個措施當然是因應就是物價衝擊當時是因應物價衝擊可是也減免了四年多了那只是說未來會不會是一個談判的籌碼是的也就是說財政部有很多對美國商品很多的優惠要拿出來放大要跟川普政府溝通說我們其實對你們的商品有特別多的優惠而不是只是做關稅避雷而已台灣對美國有非常多的特殊的優惠"},{"start":202.774,"end":216.814,"text":"接下來是美國政府把那三八要拿出來談的話我們最容易中標的就是出口補貼現在行政院的八百八十億裡面有非常多的是出口商的貸款利息補貼還有保費補貼你怎麼因應"},{"start":219.898,"end":245.436,"text":"川普政府現在這樣針對只要我們提出的政府補貼就會變成關稅壁壘而且這個我們接下來會放在你880億的所謂的特別條例裡面送到立法院來次長會不會有沒有在送到立法院來然後最後被別人拿去當成關稅壁壘的證明而且還是政府大剌剌的說我就是要補貼這個狀況你要怎麼因應"},{"start":248.649,"end":253.139,"text":"其實我們現在提供的我很擔心啦你一定會這樣做但他也一定會這樣來找我們麻煩"},{"start":255.899,"end":280.984,"text":"可是委員因為我們這個部分是對我們這些就是受到出口影響產業的金融協助措施它是一個短期的措施那這個措施其實是只是因應我們不算是長期的補貼對我們並不是一個長期的補貼好但是次長接下去我們剛剛通過的產創條例中小企業發展條例我們現在給它的租稅減免都可能被認為是政府補貼"},{"start":281.664,"end":291.044,"text":"可是報告委員租稅減免這個政策不是只有台灣提供這樣的措施美國也同樣有這樣的措施那我們有沒有因應之道我們的因應方法呢"},{"start":291.653,"end":317.439,"text":"基本上我覺得這是一個就是而且企業他要符合條件他才可以適用這樣一個優惠我的意思是說次長這個絕對不能鬆手不能因為美國的要求我們就把我們自己的產創條例的這個相關的優惠影響到我們中小企業的發展尤其是進口行業基本上還是依照我們國內的法律這些不能拿來變成你們談判鬆手的籌碼可以嗎不會 目前我們沒有這個方向"},{"start":317.819,"end":338.055,"text":"是 如果他把政府補貼或者是把我們的產稅法條例這些東西都拿來做談判的籌碼我現在希望財政部能夠在這裡向所有的委員承諾我們不會拿這個東西當成我們的籌碼我們先請所有依照我們國內法所提供的租稅優惠都不可以作為談判的籌碼不可以作為談判的籌碼 不可以"},{"start":338.635,"end":366.402,"text":"OK也就是說美國當然會找各種的理由來要求我們或者是開放我們的市場或者是增加我們的負擔但是一樣剛剛講的這些我們自己對美國有一些談判籌碼要拿出來用第二個不能夠影響到我們自己的企業他們原來在國內享有的這些相關的優惠的措施這是台灣的利基的根本是的不能成為"},{"start":367.822,"end":383.574,"text":"我們財政部拿出去談判的跟人家喊架的內容好嗎好今天還有一個貨物稅我剛剛講了美國政府有可能把我們的貨物稅列為他所認定的特殊的"},{"start":384.844,"end":395.754,"text":"官稅壁壘所以貨物稅在台灣今天我知道張偉跟大家說今天暫時不處理等到政府的談判結果再來處理但是我看到今天時間暫停請經濟部的次長經濟部次長請"},{"start":407.099,"end":414.44,"text":"是 次長我看到經濟部今天的報告也很有趣經濟部是贊成貨物稅部分的調降是嗎"},{"start":416.109,"end":441.105,"text":"我們認為在這個部分適度的檢討對於消費者跟產業界都是有好處的所以貨物稅其實它是長久以來而且對於整個立法的源頭當時的狀況跟現在的狀況有很大的差別來 理事長我也想請問你你對經濟部願意調降認為調降貨物稅你有什麼意見它的報告跟你們很不一樣你們就是要檢討檢討再檢討"},{"start":443.044,"end":455.991,"text":"基本上我們現在其實我們的貨物稅條例裡面本身已經有很多配合產業政策或者環保已經在調整了但是我在這邊質詢很多次我們的標準很奇怪我們的電視機有貨物稅我們的"},{"start":458.832,"end":480.701,"text":"液晶顯示器沒有貨物稅只要是跟電腦有關的都沒有貨物稅可是以前早期的這些所謂以前認為的奢侈品比如說錄影機啊電唱機啊音響組合啊烤箱啊還有貨物稅這才是我們需要檢討的也就是說不要管美國了現在光自己都很奇怪以前"},{"start":481.681,"end":503.986,"text":"中華民國的貨物稅還包括火柴 還包括紙 還包括化妝品當時都是這樣 所以一樣 剛剛講經濟部希望從競爭的角度能夠降低一些貨物稅第二個 從財稅稅損的角度 我知道財政部一定不希望調降但是它必須要被面對 尤其是現在又被列為所謂的非關稅壁壘"},{"start":505.126,"end":525.576,"text":"市長你同意我的意見嗎這個部分基本上因應這次對等關稅的部分我們可能汽車貨物稅的部分可能會是一個這也是你們要去盤點然後繼續不單單只是應對美國而是要應對現在已經它已經變成日常生活用品的一部分這是經濟部的立見經濟部希望調降的我們會跟經濟部產業主管機關繼續來審慎的考量"},{"start":530.818,"end":549.919,"text":"經濟部每次都同意啦然後財政部每次都反對啦就這麼簡單啦麻煩你們一下不過因為重點還是因為是有配合產業政策的問題最後市長我覺得剛剛講的電視機電唱機這些都是一般人民會用的東西沒有必要去搞這個互相你真的要課的叫做奢侈品"},{"start":550.64,"end":566.51,"text":"什麼是奢侈品我們在2009、2010年的時候我們科了所謂的特種貨物稅也就是奢侈稅現在為止也只有汽車300萬以上的汽車、遊艇、飛機還有一些重要的什麼家具象牙這種有貨物稅"},{"start":567.671,"end":593.04,"text":"但是後來當時本來說第二波要課的叫做珠寶手錶金飾或者是特殊的名牌包等等後來都沒有做如果真的要課特種貨物稅應該是回復到我們當時開徵奢償稅的一些概念而不是現在什麼電視機啊錄影機還在課什麼課物稅這很奇怪啦該課的要課民生的東西不用課了啦"},{"start":594.025,"end":604.139,"text":"如果你真的認為要有特種貨物稅的話奢侈品的部分到現在也沒有在檢討啊比如說韓國韓國經營首飾要課20%然後其他的地方大部分高檔的"},{"start":609.612,"end":625.088,"text":"車子都有甚至韓國高檔的手錶高檔的包包也有奢侈稅我們反而沒有如果你要檢討要去奢稅要去禁止奢華的生活你應該是去討論奢侈稅而不是在貨物稅裡面跟市井小民斤斤計較"},{"start":626.169,"end":649.104,"text":"市長你懂我的意思嗎我想這部分我們會一併來整體評估啦我想這個部分也謝謝委員長該取消的要取消該課徵當年沒有課到的奢侈稅要考慮這兩個部分才是真正的平衡然後現在趁著美國逼我們去看看所謂的非關稅壁壘的稅務我覺得我們應該重新檢討這也是我一直在強調中華民國已經20年沒有開過"},{"start":653.726,"end":681.295,"text":"稅務全國的稅務檢討會議了這也是我希望財政部現在開始就應該把台灣所有的稅制合理性跟不合理的部分可能要趕快做個盤點趁著這一波關稅的檢討好嗎市長我們會看看思考考量我希望你們檢討要有時間要有時間表要有順序要有方法好嗎給我一個最基本的剛剛講的這些內容的書面的回覆好是的謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":683.221,"end":683.602,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時20分）主席，我想請財政部次長。"],["主席：財政部李次長，請。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長早。我想大家都很關心的是美國川普總統又出招了，4月21號他在自己的社群平臺上發了文，指出他所關心的非關稅壁壘總共有8項，次長都很了解吧？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：他講的這8項簡單來說，第一個就是匯率操控；第二，作為關稅的加值型營業稅補貼；其他還有傾銷、出口補貼或其他類型的政府補貼、農業保護措施、科技上的保護措施標準、竊取智慧財產權以及洗產地，共有8項。這8項中跟財政部有關、我也非常關心的就是川普點名的政府補助、補貼，甚至把加值稅稱為有關稅作用的加值稅，這3項顯然都會直接影響臺灣目前可能要接下去跟他談判的內容。所以我想問一下次長，到目前為止，你認為這8項中有哪幾項臺灣會中鏢？"],["李次長慶華：目前可能就是他提到的加值稅吧！"],["黃委員珊珊：加值稅？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：有關稅作用的增值稅？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：是哪樣的加值稅或增值稅？"],["李次長慶華：依我們自己評估，可能就是消費稅、貨物稅或菸酒稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天討論的貨物稅可能就是他所指標的之一啊！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以貨物稅會被算在內，加值營業稅或其他稅可能也都會受到影響。","那麼現在針對美國的相關進口，包括小麥、大麥、玉米、黃豆，我們是減免它的……"],["李次長慶華：關稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：營業稅？"],["李次長慶華：對，營業稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下去他會不會要求我們全免啊？或者，這會不會是他談判的籌碼之一啊？"],["李次長慶華：據我們所了解，好像……因為我們的加值稅其實很低，只有5%……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但現在是針對美國免稅嘛！那我們是不是也可以拿這個來當談判籌碼，指出這其實是我們給美國產品很大的優惠，不單單是我們占他便宜，他也占我們便宜啊？"],["李次長慶華：也可能是啊！但目前財政部沒有這個規劃。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們在盤點，也希望你們盤點你們的籌碼，這也是你們的籌碼之一。"],["李次長慶華：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二，冷凍牛肉等22項商品進口關稅稅率減半，從2021年實施到現在已經4年了，接下去如果美國政府拿來跟我們談判關稅，我們針對冷凍牛肉稅率會繼續減半，以後就不徵了，會採什麼做法？"],["李次長慶華：這個措施當然是因應物價衝擊，對大宗物資所做的。"],["黃委員珊珊：當時是因應物價衝擊，可是也減免四年多了。"],["李次長慶華：對，只是未來會不會是談判的籌碼，必須……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的！也就是說財政部有很多對美國商品的優惠應該拿出來放大。你們要跟川普政府溝通說，我們其實對他們的商品有特別多優惠，而不是只有關稅壁壘而已，臺灣對美國有非常多特殊優惠。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，美國政府把那8樣拿出來談的話，我們最容易中鏢的就是出口補貼。現在行政院的880億元方案裡面有非常多是對出口商的貸款利息補貼還有保費補貼，你怎麼因應川普政府現在這樣針對我們，只要我們提出政府補貼就會變成關稅壁壘？而且你們接下來會放在所謂880億的特別條例裡面，送到立法院來。次長，會不會雖然送到立法院來，最後卻被別人拿去當成關稅壁壘的證明？而且還是政府大剌剌地說就是要補貼，這個狀況你要怎麼因應？"],["李次長慶華：其實，我們現在提供的……"],["黃委員珊珊：我很擔心啊！因為你一定會這樣做，而他也一定會這樣找我們麻煩。"],["李次長慶華：可是委員，這個部分是我們對這些出口受到影響產業的金融協助措施，屬於短期措施，這個措施其實只是因應……"],["黃委員珊珊：不算是長期補貼？"],["李次長慶華：對，並不是長期補貼，而且我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，次長，但是接下去，根據剛剛通過的產創條例、中小企業發展條例，政府現在給予企業的租稅減免都可能被認為是政府補貼。"],["李次長慶華：可是報告委員，關於租稅減免這個政策，不是只有臺灣提供這樣的措施，美國也同樣有這樣的補貼方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：那我們有沒有因應之道？我們的因應方法呢？"],["李次長慶華：基本上，我覺得就是……而且企業要符合條件才可以適用這樣的優惠，那我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，我的意思是說這點絕對不能鬆手！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能因為美國的要求，就影響我們自己的產創條例相關優惠，影響到我國中小企業的發展，尤其是進出口行業。"],["李次長慶華：不會，這部分基本上還是依照國內法律適用。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些不能拿來變成你們談判鬆手的籌碼，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：不會，目前我們沒有這個方向。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，如果他把我們的政府補貼或產創條例這些東西都拿來當作談判的籌碼，我現在希望財政部能夠在這裡向所有委員承諾，不會拿這個東西當成我們的籌碼。"],["李次長慶華：不會，所有現行依照我國國內法所提供的租稅優惠都不會作為談判籌碼。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，不可以作為談判的籌碼，不可以！OK。美國當然會找各種理由要求我們，或者是開放我們的市場、或者是增加我們的負擔，但是一樣如同剛剛講的，我們自己對美國有一些談判籌碼，要拿出來用；第二，不能夠影響到我們自己的企業原來在國內享有的這些相關優惠措施，這是臺灣立基的根本。"],["李次長慶華：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以不能成為財政部拿出去談判、跟人家喊價的內容，好嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：今天的主題還有貨物稅。我剛剛講了，美國政府有可能把我們的貨物稅列為它所認定的特殊關稅壁壘，所以貨物稅在臺灣……我知道召委跟大家說今天暫時不處理，等到有政府的談判結果再處理，但是我看到今天……時間暫停，我請經濟部次長。"],["主席：經濟部次長，請。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，我看經濟部今天的報告也很有趣：經濟部贊成貨物稅調降，是嗎？"],["賴次長建信：我們認為在這個部分適度地檢討對消費者跟產業界都是有好處的。"],["黃委員珊珊：貨物稅除了長久以來課徵，而且整個立法源頭、當時的狀況跟現在的狀況有很大的差別。來！李次長，我也想請問你，你對於經濟部願意調降貨物稅有什麼意見？他們的報告跟你們很不一樣啊！你們就是要檢討、檢討、再檢討。"],["李次長慶華：基本上，其實現在的貨物稅條例本身已經有很多配合產業政策或環保政策做了一些調整。"],["黃委員珊珊：已經在調整了，但是我也在這邊質詢很多次，就是我們的標準很奇怪，電視機有貨物稅、液晶顯示器卻沒有貨物稅，只要是跟電腦有關的都沒有貨物稅。可是早期認為的奢侈品，比如說錄影機、電唱機、音響組合、烤箱還有貨物稅，這才是我們需要檢討的。也就是說不要管美國了，現在光是我們自己都覺得很奇怪，以前課徵中華民國貨物稅的還包括火柴、紙、化妝品，當時都是這樣。"],["李次長慶華：對，早期。"],["黃委員珊珊：當時都是這樣，所以一樣的，經濟部就競爭的角度希望能夠降低一些貨物稅；第二，從財稅、稅損的角度，我知道財政部一定不希望調降，但是它必須被面對，尤其是現在又被列為非關稅壁壘。次長，你同意我的意見吧？"],["李次長慶華：就這個部分，基本上因應這次對等關稅，汽車貨物稅可能會需要討論的空間。"],["黃委員珊珊：這也是你們要去盤點的。"],["李次長慶華：對，這個部分我們會跟……"],["黃委員珊珊：不單單只是應對美國，而是要應對現在這些產品已經變成日常生活用品的一部分，這是經濟部的意見，經濟部希望調降的。"],["李次長慶華：我們會跟經濟部、產業主管機關繼續審慎考量啦！因為他們……"],["黃委員珊珊：經濟部每次都同意啦！而財政部每次都反對啦！就是那麼簡單，麻煩你們一下。"],["李次長慶華：不過重點還是有配合產業政策的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，剛剛講的電視機、電唱機，這些都是一般人民會用的東西，沒有必要搞這個貨物稅，真的要課的叫做奢侈品！什麼是奢侈品？我國在2009年、2010年課了特種貨物稅，也就是奢侈稅，但到現在為止，也只有300萬元以上汽車、遊艇、飛機，還有一些重要家具、象牙這種產品有貨物稅，當時本來說第二波要課的珠寶、手錶、金飾或特殊名牌包等等，後來都沒有做。如果真的要課特種貨物稅，應該回復到當時開徵奢侈稅的概念，而不是像現在，對電視機、錄影機還在課什麼貨物稅，這很奇怪啦！該課的要課，民生的東西不用課了啦！如果你真的認為要有特種貨物稅的話，奢侈品的部分到現在也都沒有再檢討啊！比如說韓國對金銀首飾要課20%，其他像大部分對高檔車子都課，韓國甚至對高檔手錶、高檔包包也有奢侈稅，我們反而沒有。如果要檢討、要課稅、要禁止奢華生活，應該討論奢侈稅，而不是在貨物稅裡跟市井小民斤斤計較。次長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["李次長慶華：會，這部分我們會一併、整體評估啦！也謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員珊珊：該取消的要取消、該課徵當年沒有課到的奢侈稅要考慮，這兩個部分才是真正的平衡，現在趁著美國逼我們看看所謂的非關稅壁壘稅務，我覺得我們應該重新檢討。這也是我一直強調的，中華民國已經20年沒有開過全國的稅務檢討會議了，我也希望財政部現在開始就把臺灣所有稅制中具合理性和不合理的部分趕快做個盤點，趁著這一波關稅談判檢討，好嗎？"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員指教，我們會思考、考量看看。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望你們的檢討要有時間表、要有順序、要有方法，好嗎？"],["李次長慶華：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：給我一個最基本的，包含剛剛所講這些內容的書面回復。"],["李次長慶華：是的，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢。","下一位請葉元之委員、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160561","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160561","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc01f9ca4c5aad485214d63fb5309bb2e63ca7a32b531de3e80ea8a73a6fda787c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:17:18 - 12:25:15","影片長度":"00:07:57","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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簡單講就是說在罕病的話我們在健保的總合裡面有一塊保證金另外今年政府又特別撥出20億很好但是不管怎麼講你還是從健保的大餅來拿出來嘛對不對但是我們來思考一下有些罕病他是希望能夠有一個強化型的健保就是說商業保險跟全民健保怎麼讓來完善國人健康保障我們看有一個倡議"},{"start":138.704,"end":155.583,"text":"這個呢叫做商保結合健保的優點什麼呢這是一個新聞他說專家建議商保協同健保設第二層健保類似汽車強制險什麼是第二層健保部長了解嗎我當然了解好來請來我們看下一頁來是不是這樣子您簡單說一下是不是這樣"},{"start":159.54,"end":189.123,"text":"全民健保健保協同商保是核心正目對不對但是呢健保協同商保是第二層志願參加它是一個強化醫療保險至於其他的額外保障你商務保險個人自費參加是不是這樣子那怎麼推動包委員齁我們健保署已經要請已經去研究 請國衛院研究這個我剛剛那個圖就是國衛院提供的報告啦那國衛院也提出來但是他有提出幾個問題要去克服啦好那因為我來自財政委員會我跟你講商業保險的思維啦"},{"start":189.623,"end":216.055,"text":"這個可能要委員 在財政部委員幫忙商業保險它很簡單 你期待多少保額你有多少負擔保費的能力讓你的健康條件怎麼樣然後就會制定一個保單 對不對但是健保不給付的部分民眾都可以買到商業保險嗎往下看 有一個問題弱體拒保 對不對弱體的體況不好 商業保險不敢保啊就算保費再高 保額再低 還不敢保啊 為什麼因為保費要精算"},{"start":217.082,"end":245.265,"text":"通常商業保險最擔心的是什麼因為資訊不對等保險被被保險人保護他知道他的狀況可是保險公司不知道啊所以他要精算費率的時候呢他就要怎麼樣他目前收取的保費當中四成是屬於行政這些支出核保用金六成才是用在理賠上面所以如何降低管銷成本讓這個被保險人他的透明化才能達到降低保費的效果你同意嗎"},{"start":247.87,"end":268.351,"text":"商保如果要降低保費要避免弱體拒保是不是要有這些條件盡量把保費用在理賠上盡量壓縮行政的開銷是不是這樣子當然能夠這樣最好好那我們看有沒有參考模式有往下看學生餐廳保險是一個很參考的例子教育部主辦的這個保險公司呢每年來就是他會定期來招標"},{"start":269.505,"end":287.532,"text":"不會賺但也不會賠 為什麼因為學籍管理是學校在處理不分年齡性別單一費率學校幫學生處理這些行政費用所以學生團體保險沒有什麼太多的行政開銷也沒有什麼管銷費用全部都是給學生的保費支出"},{"start":288.604,"end":308.164,"text":"汽車強制險因為車籍管理在交通部監理站車主的年齡跟差別有個大數據庫所以保險公司在制定保單的時候他是差別費率可是呢他可以很清楚的抓到他的損率部長損率知道啦齁所以目前有人主張這個比較接近商標我們來推第二層的健保往下看"},{"start":308.985,"end":329.815,"text":"所以健保協同商保怎麼運作第一一定要財務平衡不然商業保險不做第二政府要進行風險評估跟精算因為資料在政府手上第三算出來的保費要比商業保險低人民才願意參加經過政府評估每位可參加國民的體礦後他讓他去選擇他適合他體礦去找出他的保額跟保費是他能負擔的"},{"start":333.917,"end":346.781,"text":"而且政府因為資料沒有外洩通通是去識別化保險公司也不會拿到我們人民的健康資料但是又能充分的理解這個被保險人的風險狀況部長覺得這樣有沒有可能"},{"start":351.772,"end":378.006,"text":"當然這個委員質疑得非常好而且提出具體的方案那這個部分可能要金管會多多幫忙是的 因為現在有財政部今天金管會來 因為不是這個題目所以政府來核算精確度 因為政府有數據但是業界有人員 現在保險成員 保金保貸加起來包括銀行的理專有30萬人行政成本 保費的收入不用去支付這些管銷費用保費降低 被保險人就受益 往下看"},{"start":378.886,"end":395.86,"text":"所以我是主張說未來我們全民健保就像一艘郵輪我們的經濟艙就是全民健保豪商艙豪金艙就是民辦公營的自費保險商業保險要做頭等艙你要付那個錢是你的事情但是大家都能上船同時抵達終點你支持這樣的一個制度設計嗎"},{"start":398.589,"end":415.016,"text":"我們其實這個已經演繹很久了啦是 所以該是行動的時候對不對好 我給你一個機會來往下看請衛福部就健保協同商保的部分如果提供協助你提一個報告給我可以嗎好 沒問題好 那如果現在商業保險公司他們要來倡議第二層健保你要不要繼續參與"},{"start":421.457,"end":439.97,"text":"我們跟委員報告謝謝委員關心那商保協同健保事實上現在兩個模式一個就是委員提到的新加坡模式是第二層健保健保作為底第二層商保作為另外一個模式加拿大模式所以這兩個是稍微不一樣那衛福部呢其實已經就這個委託國會院就如同委員了解那出來這是哪個模式是新加坡模式嗎"},{"start":440.85,"end":460.038,"text":"第二層健保是新加坡公司但新加坡公司還有一個配套是他還有一個medifund每一個人還有一個自己的健保基金這跟現在的健保制度還是略有不同所以跟委員報告已經討論到這裡了所以如果未來商業保險公司或這些同業公會他們要發起來參與用商保跟健保來協同打造第二層健保會不會支持 會不會參加 會不會"},{"start":462.386,"end":466.888,"text":"抱著開放的心情的各種樂觀其成 積極參與 可以嗎 部長樂觀其成 積極參與到時候邀請你來 你要來喔好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":990,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時17分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請衛福部邱部長，還有健保署陳副署長。"],["主席：邱部長，陳副署長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，副署長好。今天我的題目是「公私協力打造第二層健保，政策保險模式發展合宜商保」，部長，你瞭解商業醫療保險和全民健康保險有什麼不同嗎？我這裡show出來了，就直接講了，商業保險是自願投保，全民健保因為是社會保險，所以強制投保。保費的話，商業保險是按照你的體況跟你所期待的保額去決定保費，但是健保是按照國民的收入去核算，對不對？是嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：給付的方式，商業保險是現金給付，通常是這樣，但是我們的健保是醫療服務。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會不會理賠，商業保險是依照保單約定嘛！我們的健保是不是就按照健保的規定？藥要不要給付，這個是由健保來規定，對嘛？部長都點頭了。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前的爭議在這裡啦！商業保險常常出現什麼？癌症醫療，因為技術進步，以前要住院醫療的，現在門診就可以處理了，所以產生爭議，癌症險他說你沒有住院我不給付，是不是這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外一個是什麼？全民健保遇到什麼問題？罕見疾病，很多的罕見疾病，他也是人民啊！我們又強制投保，沒有說弱體不保啊！那他要得到醫療給付，藥很貴怎麼辦？部長，要怎麼解決？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員關心，就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單講。"],["邱部長泰源：好，簡單講就是在罕病的話，我們在健保的總額裡面有一塊，保證……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啦！但是……"],["邱部長泰源：另外，今年政府又特別撥出20億，這是過去沒有的，來照顧……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，但是不管怎麼講，你還是從健保的大餅拿出來嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們來思考一下，有一些罕病他是希望能夠有一個強化型的健保，就是說商業保險與全民健保怎麼樣來完善國人健康保障，我們來看，有一個倡議。","這個叫做商保結合健保的優點，是什麼呢？這是一個新聞，它說專家建議商保協同健保，設第二層健保，類似汽車強制險，什麼是第二層健保？部長瞭解嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我當然瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看下一頁。是不是這樣子？您簡單說一下，是不是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：是，健保協同商保。"],["鍾委員佳濱：全民健保強制參加是核心項目，對不對？但是健保協同商保是第二層自願參加，它是在強化醫療保障，至於其他的額外保障，你商業保險個人自費參加，是不是這樣子？那怎麼推動？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們健保署已經去研究、研議，請國衛院研究這個計畫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我剛剛那個圖就是國衛院提供的報告。"],["邱部長泰源：國衛院也提出來，但是它有提出幾個問題要去克服。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，因為我來自財政委員會，我來講商業保險的思維。"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能要委員在財政委員會幫忙。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，商業保險它很簡單，你期待多少保額、你有多少負擔保費的能力、你的健康條件怎麼樣，然後就會制定一個保單，對不對？但是健保不給付的部分，民眾都可以買得到商業保險嗎？","往下看。有一個問題，弱體拒保，對不對？如果你的體況不好，商業保險也不敢保啊！就算保費再高，保額再低，它也不敢保啊！為什麼？因為保費要精算。通常商業保險最擔心的是什麼？因為資訊不對等，被保險人、保戶他知道他的狀況，可是保險公司不知道，所以它要精算費率的時候就要怎麼樣？它目前收取的保費當中，四成是屬於這些行政支出，包括核保、佣金，六成才是用在理賠上面，所以如何降低管銷成本，讓被保險人透明化，才能達到降低保費的效果，你同意嗎？商保如果要降低保費，避免弱體拒保，是不是要有這些條件？儘量把保費用在理賠上，儘量壓縮行政的開銷，是不是這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：當然，能夠這樣最好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們看看有沒有參考模式，有。學生團體保險是一個很常有的例子，教育部主辦的，這個保險公司每年來，就是它會定期來招標，不會賺但也不會賠，為什麼？因為學籍管理是學校在處理，不分年齡、性別單一費率，學校幫學生處理這些行政費用，所以學生團體保險沒有太多的行政開銷，也沒有什麼管銷費用，全部都是給學生的保費支出。","汽車強制險，因為車籍管理在交通部監理站，車主的年齡和性別有一個大數據庫，所以保險公司在制定保單的時候它是差別費率，可是它可以很清楚地抓到它的損率，部長，損率知道啦？"],["邱部長泰源：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前有人主張這個是比較接近商業保險。","我們來推第二層的健保，往下看。健保協同商保要怎麼運作？第一，一定要財務平衡，不然商業保險不做。第二，政府要進行風險評估與精算，因為資料在政府手上。第三，算出來的保費要比商業保險低，人民才願意參加。經過政府評估每位可參加國民的體況後，讓他去選擇適合他體況，去找出他們能負擔的保額跟保費，而且政府因為資料沒有外洩，統統是去識別化，保險公司也不會拿到人民的健康資料，但是又能充分地理解被保險人的風險狀況，部長覺得這樣有沒有可能？"],["邱部長泰源：當然委員質詢得非常好，而且也提出具體方案，這個部分可能要金管會多多幫忙。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，現在有財政部，但今天金管會沒有來，因為不是這個題目。","由政府來核算精確度，因為政府有數據，但是業界有人員，現在保險人員保金、保貸加起來，包括銀行的理專有30萬人，行政成本降低，保費的收入不用去支付這些管銷費用，保費降低，被保險人就受益。","我是主張未來我們的全民健保就像一艘郵輪，經濟艙就是全民健保，豪商艙、豪經艙就是民辦公營的自費保險，商業保險要坐頭等艙，你要付那個錢是你的事情，但是大家都能上船同時抵達終點，你支持這樣的制度設計嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：其實這個已經研議很久了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以該是行動的時候，對不對？好，我給你一個機會，請衛福部就健保協同商保的部分如何提供協助，你提一個報告給我，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果現在商業保險公司他們要來倡議第二層健保，你要不要積極參與？"],["邱部長泰源：這個請副署長來回答一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，請說。"],["陳副署長亮妤：我們跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心，商保協同健保事實上現在有兩個模式，一個就是委員提到的新加坡模式，是第二層健保，健保作為底，第二層商保。另外一個模式是加拿大模式，所以這兩個是稍微不一樣。衛福部其實已經就這個委託國衛院，就如同委員瞭解的，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那算起來這是哪一個模式？是新加坡模式嘛？"],["陳副署長亮妤：第二層健保是新加坡模式，但新加坡模式還有一個配套，它還有一個Medifund，每一個人還有一個自己的健保基金，這跟現在的健保制度還是略有不同，所以跟委員報告，已經討論到這裡了，但是還有一些配套會有不同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果未來商業保險公司或這些同業公會他們要發起來參與，用商保跟健保來協同打造第二層健保，衛福部會支持，衛福部會參加，會不會？"],["陳副署長亮妤：我們會抱著開放的心情，就各種對國人好的研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會樂觀其成，積極參與？"],["陳副署長亮妤：對國人好的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：樂觀其成，積極參與？"],["邱部長泰源：應該是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：到時候邀請你來，你要來哦！"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160560","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160560","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0d668c2c15a9b7b4416f08763592c0c24ca7a32b531de3e8014b1ada5b04794185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:15:21 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默我這個有機會有時間安排部長或您來台中走一趟嗎"},{"start":129.938,"end":152.647,"text":"第一個非常謝謝委員的邀請,其實我是台中出身的,所以對台中還蠻熟悉,在台中念的大學那因為流行音樂中心的問題先跟委員說明,因為現在其實北流南流的經營跟它的發展其實大概都還需要政府很大量的支撐所以對於新設立流行音樂中心我們當然在政策的決定上就會相對比較謹慎那尤其台中其實有台中歌劇院,這也是其他地方所沒有的"},{"start":152.947,"end":162.294,"text":"台中歌劇院並不是我們所謂的流行文化或是流行音樂台中歌劇院它是站在不同的文化面向跟不同的一個現實大家都會發展自己的主題跟自己的強項那所以我想台中"},{"start":169.74,"end":196.418,"text":"市長你也知道過去70年代的民歌是從台中開始發源的對所以我們也很期待台中可以在流行音樂上也有一個新的表現只是說我只要跟委員說明說這一類的發展它有的時候可以透過政策的帶動或者是活動的帶動那設立管社這件事情不一定要走在最前面那我可以接受市長的說法但是文化部要給我一個策略性的一個"},{"start":197.259,"end":213.305,"text":"短中長期的策略性的一個給我看嘛比如說對於台中我們中台灣我們文化部可以支持什麼的活動那由活動來帶動那我們可以中期可以期待是什麼長期可以期待的是什麼國漫館"},{"start":216.807,"end":243.67,"text":"國門館我們現在看到的是這個整個文資身份的這個建築物的一個活化利用這我們很樂見其成現在禮拜六禮拜天也很多人但是呢它周遭的配套還有所謂的第二的一個建物我記得還有一個第二基地嗎還在進行中新建部分還有下一個階段的計畫是吧可是它的工建這個計畫通過核定了嗎還沒有核定但我們現在有在繼續申請會有第二下一個階段"},{"start":244.17,"end":272.957,"text":"如果說在下一個階段我覺得那是國漫基地下一個階段可以讓它更完整的變成是一個漫畫博物館或者是它更大的一個年輕人也好或是文化人喜歡的一個動漫場域我當然全力支持啊那我現在講的是這個流行音樂或是流行文化中心我記得我們中央其實有補助台中市政府有一個所謂的影視音的一個流行文化中心你知道有這一件事嗎"},{"start":273.877,"end":300.496,"text":"流行文化中心最近才完成而且才委外經營喔你不知道喔下次我們安排一個考察啦我邀請部長或次長來看啦中台灣電影中心現在變成是流行影音中心它是流行影音中心啦所以的確包括音樂的部分就是原本的那個電影中心啦中台灣電影中心"},{"start":301.457,"end":319.228,"text":"它本來是中台灣電影中心本來我們的期待是它能夠專注做好電影相關的產業的發展那這個中心我當然也全力支持不過現在改成所謂的影音中心那把音樂納進去可是問題是它現在這個場館的場域其實不大"},{"start":322.79,"end":324.451,"text":"她對於流行音樂來講她的展演的場地是小的所以是沒有專業的一個規劃所以我還是認為如果中央可以幫忙的話我也希望啦大家能夠呢及時廣益那有策略性的來推動幫忙"},{"start":340.878,"end":361.544,"text":"台中有一個未來的流行文化中心我地方上有很多的樂團也好或者是音樂祭、音樂節的籌備單位也好他們都在談說台中就是缺乏場館所以當他們在設計不管是流行音樂或者是在推展藝術活動的時候"},{"start":364.545,"end":368.148,"text":"台中國家歌劇院對他們來講太高了光是租金他們也付不起那其他的場域我們巨蛋還沒生出來大巨蛋更還沒有那個對他們來講也都太大了那有什麼是適合他們的一個場館包括我們台中的中心堂現在放著在那裡"},{"start":387.165,"end":414.137,"text":"台中市政府也沒有想辦法要做活化利用我們現在有的中山堂也是一個比較老舊的一個展演場館那我不知道未來啦我希望能夠文化部支持讓我們來盤點台中中台灣台中不是只有台中市民所有中張頭包括苗栗甚至到雲林都是以台中為一個文化一個"},{"start":416.278,"end":441.712,"text":"終點 中心點那大家都會集中或者是藝文活動它都會進我們所謂的台中的這個都會區裡面這個它是一個輻射性的一個影響我所以希望次長或者是下一次邀請部長到台中來考察我們好好的坐下來談一談中台灣的相關的這個不管是流行文化或是流行音樂的一個"},{"start":444.913,"end":463.3,"text":"據點場館的未來可能性好不好我想一樣再次謝謝委員邀請我們也很希望在中台灣也有一些流行音樂或者是影視音樂上面的表現那要跟委員說其實之前為什麼中台灣電影中心後來變成攝影中心也跟他沒有廠商投標流標有關就是"},{"start":464.821,"end":487.984,"text":"針對經營硬體這件事情其實在地方來說可能需要地方政府更多的投入跟支持不然的話其實像這一些它就算有硬體的空間卻很難在軟體的經營上有成果那這一點我想我們再跟委員再做一些討論跟研議看怎麼樣可以促進在地的這些文化藝文的發展可能是當務之急以上跟委員補充好 那我等你我們再約時間好不好謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝何欣淳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":894,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時15分）謝謝宜瑾召委，我們請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：次長好。我今天特地回來娘家教文委員會，對文化是非常肯定，尤其文化部在李遠部長跟次長及團隊的努力之下，但是我還是希望來就教於次長。","第一是有關於流行音樂在臺中、中部地區的問題。我不知道次長知不知道，以臺中、中部地區來看的話，我們長久以來一直認為我們缺乏了一個流行音樂中心，因為有北流、有高流，就是沒有一個中流。我們中流希望成為臺灣的中流砥柱啊！","所以我從上一屆提案到現在，曾經有可行性評估，但是你們用簡單的幾頁就告訴我不可行，我認為這不太負責任。我還是希望，如果有空，邀請部長跟您一起到臺中、到中部來，我們來盤點中臺灣的流行音樂或是流行文化有什麼可以跟北流、跟高流不一樣的定位，但是卻可以互補、分進合擊，可以撐起臺灣的流行音樂或是流行文化像在你的業務報告裡面，我們要成為臺流，臺流我想是由很多不同的元素來組成。這個區域的文化平權跟區域上的差異性，是不是能夠造就、衝擊出一個不同的流行文化或者是可以帶動一個不同的流行音樂的場域？次長，您可以承諾我，有機會、有時間，安排部長或您來臺中走一趟嗎？"],["王次長時思：第一個，非常謝謝委員的邀請，其實我是臺中出生的，所以對臺中還滿熟的，也在臺中念的大學。先跟委員說明，有關流行音樂中心的問題，因為現在北流、南流的經營跟發展其實大概都還需要政府很大量的支撐，所以對於新設立流行音樂中心，我們當然在政策的決定上就會相對比較謹慎。尤其臺中其實有臺中歌劇院，這也是其他地方所沒有的……"],["何委員欣純：可是臺中歌劇院並不是我們所謂的流行文化或是流行音樂啊！臺中歌劇院是站在……"],["王次長時思：它有不同的文化面向。"],["何委員欣純：不同的文化面向跟不同的對象嘛！"],["王次長時思：所以我的意思是說，各縣市都會發展自己的主題跟自己的強項啦！所以我想臺中在流行音樂上可以怎麼做，我們可以來研議。"],["何委員欣純：次長，你也知道過去70年代的民歌是從臺中發源的！"],["王次長時思：對，所以我們也很期待臺中可以在流行音樂上有一個新的表現。我只是要跟委員說明，這類的發展有的時候可以透過政策的帶動，或者是活動的帶動。設立館舍這件事情不一定要走在最前面，因為設立館舍費時比較長。"],["何委員欣純：我可以接受次長的說法，但是文化部要有一個短、中、長期的策略給我看嘛！"],["王次長時思：針對流行音樂的部分，我們可以提出。"],["何委員欣純：譬如說，對於臺中和中臺灣，我們文化部可以支持什麼樣的活動？由活動來帶動，那我們中期可以期待的是什麼？長期可以期待的是什麼？"],["王次長時思：我們才剛剛設立的國家漫畫館也在臺中，是新的。"],["何委員欣純：我們現在看到的國漫館是整個文資身分建築物的活化利用，這個我們很樂見其成，現在禮拜六、禮拜天也很多人……"],["王次長時思：很多人。"],["何委員欣純：但是它周遭的配套，我記得還有一個第二基地嘛？"],["王次長時思：還在進行中。興建部分還有下一個階段的計畫。"],["何委員欣純：是吧？"],["王次長時思：有。"],["何委員欣純：可是它的公建計畫核定了嗎？"],["王次長時思：還沒有核定，但我們現在有在繼續申請，會有下一個階段。"],["何委員欣純：那是國漫基地，我覺得下一個階段可以讓它更完整地變成是一個漫畫博物館……"],["王次長時思：是，我們期待。"],["何委員欣純：或者是年輕人也好，或是文化人喜歡的一個更大的動漫場域，我當然全力支持啊！"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：但我現在講的是流行音樂或是流行文化中心。我記得我們中央其實有補助臺中市政府一個所謂影視音的流行文化中心。你知道有這一件事嗎？"],["王次長時思：流行文化中心？"],["何委員欣純：最近才完成、而且委外經營喔！你不知道哦？下次我們安排一場考察啦！我請部長或次長來看啦！"],["王次長時思：喔！中臺灣電影中心現在變成流行影音中心，是流行影音中心啦，所以的確包括音樂部分，也就是原本的中臺灣電影中心。"],["何委員欣純：對啊！它本來是中臺灣電影中心，我們的期待是它能夠專注做好電影相關產業的發展。這個中心我當然也全力支持，不過現在改成所謂的影音中心，把音樂納進去，問題在於這個場館的場域其實不大啊！"],["王次長時思：我要跟委員說明……"],["何委員欣純：以流行音樂來講，其展演場地是小的、沒有專業的規劃。所以我還是認為，如果中央可以幫忙的話，希望大家集思廣益，有策略性地推動，幫忙臺中未來設置一座流行文化中心。"],["王次長時思：沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：在我們地方上有很多樂團也好或者音樂祭、音樂節的籌備單位也好，他們都在談臺中就是缺乏場館，不管他們是在設計流行音樂或推展藝術活動的時候，臺中國家歌劇院對他們來講規格都太高了，光是租金他們就付不起。其他場域呢？我們的巨蛋還沒生出來、大巨蛋更是沒有，而且那些對他們來講也都太大了。那麼有什麼是適合他們的場館？臺中中興堂現在空著放在那裡，臺中市政府也沒想辦法活化利用，現在有的中山堂又是比較老舊的展演場館，未來我希望文化部能夠支持，讓我們盤點臺中、中臺灣的設施。臺中不是只有臺中市民，中彰投所有地區、包括苗栗、甚至到雲林，都以臺中為文化中心點，大家都會集中或者藝文活動都會進入臺中這個都會區裡面，所以它有輻射性的影響力。我希望次長或下一次邀請部長到臺中來考察，我們好好地坐下來談一談中臺灣的相關發展，不管是流行文化或流行音樂據點、場館未來的可能性，好不好？"],["王次長時思：我一樣再次謝謝委員的邀請，我們也很希望在中臺灣有一些流行音樂或影視音上面的表現，但我要跟委員說，之前的中臺灣電影中心後來為什麼變成影音中心，也跟沒有廠商投標、流標有關。針對經營硬體這件事情，其實在地方來說，可能需要地方政府更多投入跟支持，不然的話，像這些設施就算有硬體空間，卻很難在軟體的經營上有成果。這一點我們會再跟委員做一些討論跟研議，看看怎麼樣可以促進在地這些文化、藝文的發展，這可能是當務之急。以上跟委員補充。"],["何委員欣純：好，那我等你，我們再約時間，好不好？"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員，次長請回。","接下來請林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","請高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","請劉建國、劉建國，劉建國委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}},{"id":"160559","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc028b4cb09f5adb4209ac021369aff85baca7a32b531de3e803717ab8172553e855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:16:50 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台日關係的官方互動 不管是國會甚至行政部門的互動 我覺得都有非常好的一個成果包括我個人也常常到日本國會去針對特定議題做一些討論相對的他們有日華肯 跨黨派 大概將近有200位的國會議員"},{"start":100.228,"end":114.46,"text":"那韓國跟台灣的官方關係不管是行政部門、外交部甚至或者是國會跟國會的關係為什麼跟台日關係差距那麼的大原因是在哪裡"},{"start":116.777,"end":145.294,"text":"報告委員那事實上我跟委員報告一下台韓關係近年來雙邊的關係其實是有不錯的進展包括兩國的這個避免雙重課稅的協定在去年1月1日開始適用另外我們台灣跟韓國也另外簽訂了互惠使用自動通關國際駕照互相承認雙邊銀行監理合作備忘錄等等"},{"start":145.774,"end":173.485,"text":"二十項的一個協定另外在台韓的國會這個書面資料再給我我的個人感覺台日跟台韓做比較台日跟台韓的關係差距很大台日關係如果一百分的話那台韓的關係大概只有五十分我個人的你也可以提供一些數據來說明因為時間的關係我不是五加五是五分鐘而已我們之後提供委員相關的書面資料接下來請這個"},{"start":176.044,"end":199.413,"text":"國防部顧部長有關於空軍機場附近周遭受到起降演訓所影響的市民或民眾我們當然國防部有相關的作業要點"},{"start":200.66,"end":229.767,"text":"那我選在岡山機場那機場將AT3變成永音號對不對永音號的這個起降未來會越來越平板但是它產生的這個音量也比AT3T3是更大所以我昨天特別開一個協調會所以各區包括紫關包括彌陀包括岡山受影響的區所有里長都出席第一個換寡也換不均"},{"start":231.606,"end":253.931,"text":"換寡 換不均 換寡就是你的補助金額或者預算太少全國所有機場一年7億而已岡山受到影響那麼多里 只有接近2000萬一個里要輪到補助 要等14年他們每天都受到這些噪音的影響 對不對"},{"start":255.888,"end":276.986,"text":"那我們卻得不到這個國防部或者空軍相當程度的補償或者是這個牧林他們生活受到影響那他們應該如此嗎所以我覺得國防部要先把這個回饋的金額做大然後分配是不是可以直接下放到這個區不是到 下放到里"},{"start":278.457,"end":307.376,"text":"這個作業規則 我覺得可能 國防部 可能部長委員是不是說下放到區 還是說要下放到區因為現在裡啊 A B 兩裡連在一起現在A裡有過 B裡沒有過那旁邊是不是它就有產生怨言啊所以你如果下放到區 比方說紫關區 岡山區以區作為一個補助的單位由區公所去制定一個補助要點針對受到影響最嚴重的裡 做多點補助而且很美的都可以補助耶"},{"start":308.564,"end":333.942,"text":"那你如果換不用這個實體補助你用現金補助的話一個人才450塊一年啊450塊您的意思是說由區來統籌嗎你可以跟市政府跟所有縣市政府去討論一下哪一個補助方式民眾才覺得比較比較有感覺才會覺得比較不會覺得受到那麼大的委屈這部分我把這個問題丟出來"},{"start":336.021,"end":337.344,"text":"我要示範一下什麼叫優質諮詢時間到"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時16分）謝謝主席。主席，會議詢問，今天列席質詢是幾分鐘？5分鐘？"],["主席：5分鐘。"],["邱委員志偉：還是5加5？好像是5加5耶！還是國防委員會的時間過的比較慢？本席是5分鐘，確定嗎？好，就5分鐘。先請外交部陳政次、亞太司許副司長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：韓國和日本在地緣政治、地緣戰略、地緣經營都和臺灣密切相關，沒有錯吧？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["邱委員志偉：臺日關係這十幾年來非常友好，日本是臺灣人心目中最好的國家、最想去旅遊的國家、最友善的國家，日本也把臺灣視為最喜歡造訪的國家。相對的，臺韓之間的民間交流，不管是演唱會或者是K-pop，或者最近職棒的應援團，都對年輕人有很多影響，也得到很多人的支持。","在官方的互動方面，臺日關係的官方互動，不管是國會，甚至是行政部門的互動，本席覺得都有非常好的成果，包括本席個人也常常到日本國會針對特定議題做一些討論。相對的，他們有日華懇，這是跨黨派的，將近200位國會議員參加。韓國和臺灣的官方關係，不管是行政部門，例如外交部對他們的外交部，或者國會和國會的關係，為什麼和臺日關係的差距那麼大？原因是什麼？"],["陳次長明祺：事實上臺韓近年來雙邊關係有不錯的進展。"],["邱委員志偉：例如？"],["陳次長明祺：包括兩國避免雙重課稅的協定，去年1月1日開始適用。另外，臺灣和韓國也另外簽訂互惠使用自動通關、國際駕照互相承認、雙邊銀行監理合作備忘錄等20項協定。另外在臺韓的國會……"],["邱委員志偉：請你們提供這方面的書面資料給本席。就本席個人的感覺，以臺日和臺韓比較，臺日和臺韓的關係差距很大，臺日關係如果是100分的話，臺韓關係大概只有50分，這是本席個人的感覺，你們也可以提供一些數據說明，因為時間的關係，本席不是5加5，只有5分鐘而已。"],["陳次長正祺：好，我們之後提供委員相關書面資料。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。接下來請國防部顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，有關空軍機場周遭受到起降演訓影響的民眾，國防部有相關作業要點，岡山機場在本席的選區，將來AT-3會由勇鷹號接替，對不對？所以未來勇鷹號的起降會越來越頻繁，但是它產生的音量也比AT-3、T-34更大。所以本席昨天特別召開一場協調會，包括梓官、彌陀、岡山等受到影響的區域，所有里長都有出席。","第一個，患寡也患不均，患寡就是補助金額或者預算太少，全國所有機場一年才7億元而已。岡山受到影響的里那麼多，補助金額才接近2,000萬元，一個里輪到補助要等14年，但他們每天都受到這些噪音的影響，對不對？可是卻得不到國防部或者空軍相當程度的補償，或者是睦鄰的措施。他們的生活受到影響是應該的嗎？所以本席覺得國防部要先把回饋金額做大，分配時是不是可以直接下放到區，而不是下放到里？針對這個作業規則，本席覺得部長可能要請……"],["顧部長立雄：委員是說下放到區？還是下放到……"],["邱委員志偉：區。因為現在是到里，A、B兩里連在一起，結果A里有補助，B里沒有補助，民眾是不是就會產生怨言？如果你們下放到區，比方梓官區、岡山區，以區做為補助的單位，由區公所去制定補助要點，對受到影響最嚴重的里多給一點補助，而且是每年都可以補助。如果不用實體補助，是用現金補助的話，一個人一年才450元。"],["顧部長立雄：所以您的意思是說由區來統籌嗎？"],["邱委員志偉：你們可以和所有縣市政府討論一下，哪一個補助方式民眾比較有感覺，他們才不會覺得受到那麼大的委屈，本席主要是把這個問題丟出來討論。本席要示範一下什麼叫優質質詢，時間到了。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"],["顧部長立雄：我們來研議。"],["邱委員志偉：請你們再研議一下。部長，是不是在一個月之內提供本席研議的成果？"],["顧部長立雄：是。好像每個委員都有不同意見。"],["主席：接下來由蘇清泉委員上臺質詢。蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員上臺質詢。鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來由林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}},{"id":"160558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc07b678a06b5439aae7fe8c6252e35fc4aca7a32b531de3e80a26d91266f61260a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:15:16 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謝謝主席投影片好了嗎好 那有請經濟部還有國發會"},{"start":21.616,"end":42.333,"text":"好 吳安我想要談一下到底是自由還是門戶洞開那請國發會出來是因為離島建設條例跟國發會有關可是息產地這個疑慮我認為跟經濟部有關我需要部長您的專業來告訴大家到底這是息產地還是所謂自由貿易因為在陳玉珍委員的提案版本裡面他希望"},{"start":43.895,"end":63.693,"text":"設立所謂自由貿易示範區而且他清楚地寫明讓人民、法人、團體、商品、資金、服務在區內自由進出我認為這是習慘地來下一張怎麼說呢我們來看一下他國的經驗目前越南跟韓國都努力在補漏洞"},{"start":64.053,"end":91.97,"text":"他們都希望在對美關稅貿易這件事情上他們可以清清楚楚的說明他們的國家不會成為席產地的基地他們不會幫中國做這樣的事情因為這會影響到他們本國自己的利益但是我看到陳玉珍委員跟陳雪生委員的提案版本卻讓相關的土地可以變更環平可免中資可自由進出甚至是地方政府就可以主持這些事情我認為這真的是席產地但是我想問問看部長"},{"start":92.91,"end":108.524,"text":"你的經濟專業可以告訴我你怎麼看嗎來下一張是 報告員原產地的認定部分我想台灣跟美國它的標準是不一樣的美國認為原料製造只要有35%來自中國那就屬於中國製造"},{"start":109.645,"end":126.999,"text":"那我國呢則針對附加價值超過35%就認定為是台灣製造這個雙方有一些落差在所以美國原產地是由美國海關以個案的這個方式來認定是否有最終事實轉型"},{"start":130.121,"end":151.667,"text":"這個考慮附加價值率比如說35%還是綜合考量的名稱特性用途是否改變加工過程的複雜性過去的判例解釋函領等等所以我們都是建議業者在出口之前要與美國的客戶充分的溝通或透過美國的海關申請預審產地以維護自身的權益"},{"start":155.728,"end":176.58,"text":"好 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報告委員我舉一個例子這個中國的領主艦在墨西哥組成這個馬達美國的海關就認為說你這領主艦都是來自中國"},{"start":291.644,"end":307.28,"text":"那麼這零組件也有特定用途所以認定這個馬達的產地就是中國所以按照這個委員在講的如果在金門你所有的零組件都是在中國然後到金門組裝送到美國去他就認定這是中國"},{"start":307.961,"end":323.129,"text":"好 所以這就是其產地嘛謝謝部長所以我想後續我們辦公室會再跟經濟部或是國發會討論我們到底如何避免這個事情發生我們真的是要幫助金門而不是歧視金門我們會舉這些例子讓委員來做這個背景謝謝部長 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我覺得有困難的在這個時刻大家共體時間政府幫企業 企業幫員工我最重視是員工的生存工作權的問題如果企業或人民在繳稅上碰到財務的困難還可以向我們國稅局申請延期分期繳稅"},{"start":536.445,"end":564.652,"text":"好 我們共赴國難大家要共體時艱一起努力最近看到國安基金出手以後果然是四兩撥千斤股市今天也大漲了700點那要謝謝次長是我們阮次長在阮次長你們同一個團隊嘛那請問國安基金現在是"},{"start":566.516,"end":590.225,"text":"那個規模多大五千億台幣 夠不夠啊這個我們已經有在檢討了就是可能往上提升我們都有在討論包括朱主席黃主席就是針對國安基金有提到希望規模要擴大規模如果擴大的話市長你覺得下一步應該要擴大多大的規模才足夠應付國際平盤的變化"},{"start":592.925,"end":618.533,"text":"因為這個部分基本上我知道有在檢討但是要擴大到多少這個可能不是我這邊我沒有辦法給三兆夠不夠三兆因為現在兩萬九千多點啊很快就三萬點啊三萬點我們希望他趕快到有人講一兆啦但是一兆好像力道也不夠啊"},{"start":620.189,"end":648.039,"text":"我想我們國安基金這個團隊他們會做審慎的評估而且這個要涉及條例的審慎假設低標可能是一兆那也可能在往上那請問這個多出來五千億你的財源要從哪裡來應該會有相關的財源來夠支援哪裡 還是請署長陳署長知道因為國安基金本來就是有不同的金融機構還有就是相關的基金一起來支持"},{"start":648.539,"end":664.756,"text":"那未來這個如果說需要擴充到這個他的財務需要擴充的話我們還有跟相關金融機構來舉借的方式來指引股市要顧好金融要穩定員工的生計要照顧好會謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時8分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請財政部以及經濟部？"],["主席：請財政部李次長、經濟部賴次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：李次長，你好。美國實施進口產品國安調查可能展開了，整個幅度跟面向非常廣。美國開始展開調查以後，不曉得財政部有沒有做什麼因應準備？"],["李次長慶華：針對國安調查，財政部也一樣，基本上就是目前我們進口關稅的課稅狀況、數量、稅率還有進出口情況，提供給經貿談判辦公室做為參考。"],["羅委員明才：我們現在一年的貨物稅稅收大概是多少？"],["李次長慶華：1,600億元左右。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["李次長慶華：1,600億元。"],["羅委員明才：1,600億元。那麼這部分有沒有可能再調降，或者你們是計劃調升？各種不同產業都有啦！"],["李次長慶華：就這部分，我們這次當然也會提供一些相關評估方向給經貿談判辦公室一併參考。"],["羅委員明才：我們看到美國關稅大戰開始以後，海嘯第一排大概有六大受災聚落，金屬、機械設備都在第一線，所受影響非常、非常大，包括server、PCB、光學手工具、金屬加工、螺絲扣件、手工具這些產業。那麼財政部和經濟部有沒有算過影響人員大概有多少？影響的金額大概一年會是多少？當然，像你就說也不曉得美國要對我們課多少稅，但現在照你們的沙盤推演，大概可能有幾種狀況？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，產業部分是由產業主管機關作評估啦！我們財政部沒有提供這部分資料。"],["羅委員明才：好，那麼意思就是請經濟部說明，請次長。"],["賴次長建信：隨著對等關稅未來實施的情境不一樣，影響的範圍也不一樣，若是課徵原來所公告的32%，影響出口將可以達到26%；若是回到現在暫時維持90天的10%，大概影響是21%左右。"],["羅委員明才：所以大概也摸不清楚啦！如果是最壞的情況，大概會課多少？"],["賴次長建信：美國還在做相關調查中，我們也不太能確定最後的結果怎麼樣。"],["羅委員明才：我們看到美國總統川普現在說對大陸課145%可能太高了，他自己講的，所以間接讓大家喘一口氣，我看到今天的股市好像是上漲吧！漲多少？"],["賴次長建信：我沒有特別注意，因為我就在這個會議室裡面。"],["羅委員明才：漲700點。面對情勢這樣上上下下，事實上各行各業都忐忑不安啊！政府可不可以成為人民的靠山？"],["賴次長建信：確實……"],["羅委員明才：你們應該有一些沙盤推演。"],["賴次長建信：從去年開始，我們就針對不同的情境做相關沙盤推演。自從美國政府宣布了對等關稅措施之後，行政院也推出方案包括九大面向、20項措施、總共880億元，就是從財務支持、行政支持、產業轉型或多元拓銷，方方面面、各個工作都在做。除此之外，除了我們現在從南到北，到各地聽取產業界的意見、藉此蒐集產業界的意見，提供我們的談判代表參考之外，關於剛剛委員所說的232條款調查，美國政府也表示在蒐集公眾意見，有些產業意見可以透過這部分管道反映。"],["羅委員明才：在下一波，醫藥部分會不會列入課高關稅的範圍？"],["賴次長建信：這是在調查中的事情，我們也在密切地跟相關公協會、業者進行座談之中。"],["羅委員明才：面對局勢上上下下、美國沒有規則性地提出一些可以說粗暴的方式，身為中華民國的經濟部次長，你有什麼話要說？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們希望……"],["羅委員明才：大概是兩種話啦！第一種就是你要鏗將有力、表達我們的立場，像新加坡、像日本，還有歐盟幾個國家，大家都勇敢地發聲啊！"],["賴次長建信：第一，面對這個情境，我們希望穩固所有廠商的信心，並對外爭取有利的競爭條件。除此之外，藉由這次挑戰，我們尋求產業轉型，這也是我們長期、持續在做的策略。"],["羅委員明才：未來臺灣經濟的發展會不會再轉變啊？比如說南向變成新南向，現在還有什麼向可以走？"],["賴次長建信：多元拓銷，行銷到全世界一直是我們的目標啊！"],["羅委員明才：好，那下一個目標是指哪裡？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們會協助廠商，而廠商在全球佈局上自己有考量，會依照其產業特性進行相關布局以及移動。"],["羅委員明才：本席向來最關心的就是中小企業的發展以及辛苦的員工，特別是這些即將面臨轉型或失業的勞動力，他們是很辛苦的啊！我剛剛看了一下，大概有二十幾萬人成為海嘯第一線的邊緣人啊！"],["賴次長建信：所以，基本上對於將近一百六十多萬家中小企業，經濟部一直以來協助中小企業的AI轉型之外，當然也配合財政部一些金融支持措施。除此之外，行政院現在所提出屬於經濟部的部分，對於中小企業的微型貸款還有外銷貸款總計有110億元左右。"],["羅委員明才：次長，你剛剛所講什麼八百多億元其實只是杯水車薪啊！我覺得都應該再考量情況予以重視、予以增加。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員指導意見，我們現在也在各地座談會持續蒐集各廠商所傳遞的意見。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。","剛剛講到金融業雨天不收傘，是不是能請教李次長？賴次長可以請回。"],["李次長慶華：我們絕對是雨天不收傘。"],["羅委員明才：如何？"],["李次長慶華：絕對不收傘，還要替企業撐傘。"],["羅委員明才：喔！絕對不收傘。"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["羅委員明才：OK。","本來應該從5月份開始就要報稅了喔？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員明才：現在確定要延長1個月？"],["李次長慶華：為了和緩廠商可能受到的對等關稅衝擊，讓廠商有比較充裕的時間做相關準備，所以現在的所得稅申報時間確定延長到今年6月30號。"],["羅委員明才：是。我覺得在這個有困難的時刻，大家要共體時艱啊！政府幫企業、企業幫員工。"],["李次長慶華：是，如果企業或者是……"],["羅委員明才：我最重視員工生存、工作權的問題。"],["李次長慶華：如果企業或人民在繳稅上碰到財務的困難，還可以向國稅局申請延期、分期繳稅。"],["羅委員明才：好，我們共赴國難，大家要共體時艱，一起努力。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員明才：最近看到國安基金出手以後，果然是四兩撥千金啊！股市今天也大漲了700點，要謝謝次長。"],["李次長慶華：不，是我們阮次長在運作。"],["羅委員明才：阮次長。但你們是同一個團隊嘛！","請問國安基金現在規模多大？"],["李次長慶華：5,000億臺幣。"],["羅委員明才：夠不夠啊？"],["李次長慶華：這點我們已經在檢討了，可能會往上提升。"],["羅委員明才：我們都在討論，包括朱主席、黃主席，針對國安基金都提到希望規模擴大。"],["李次長慶華：會。"],["羅委員明才：規模如果擴大的話，次長，你覺得下一步應該擴到多大的規模，才足夠應付國際頻繁的變化？"],["李次長慶華：關於這部分，基本上我知道有在檢討，但是要擴大到多少，可能不是由我這邊說明、我沒有辦法給你答案。"],["羅委員明才：到3兆夠不夠？"],["李次長慶華：3兆？不知道，目前他們還在……"],["羅委員明才：因為現在兩萬九千多點了，很快就3萬點啦！"],["李次長慶華：3萬點？我們希望趕快到。"],["羅委員明才：有人想的是1兆啦！但是1兆好像力道也不夠。"],["李次長慶華：我想國安基金這個團隊會做審慎的評估啦！而且這也涉及條例部分。"],["羅委員明才：假設低標可能是1兆，也可能再往上。那麼請問，要是多出來5,000億元，財源要從哪裡來？"],["李次長慶華：應該會有相關財源能夠支援啦！"],["羅委員明才：要從哪裡？"],["李次長慶華：會支援啦！"],["羅委員明才：還是請署長說明……"],["李次長慶華：因為基本上都是從……"],["羅委員明才：陳署長知道？"],["李次長慶華：國安基金本來就是有不同金融機構還有相關基金一起支持，未來如果財務需要擴充的話，我們還有向相關金融機構舉借的方式可支應。"],["羅委員明才：股市要顧好、金融要穩定、員工生計要照顧好。"],["李次長慶華：會。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc09b4837f384f600334d63fb5309bb2e63ca7a32b531de3e8053e23ddd97f11bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:09:04 - 12:17:10","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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部長好 部長眼睛是靈魂之窗部長這句形容真的很貼切那近年來3C的產品使用率高加上有近七成的國人有近視眼底幾乎容易發生病變日後發生青光炎視網膜剝離的機率大幅提高近視每增加100度近視性黃斑病變發生率增加58%"},{"start":32.036,"end":54.422,"text":"視網膜剝離發生率增加30%白內障發生率是21%青光眼發生率是增加20%先就兒童視力的保健想請教一下部長現在兒童視力的預防保健都由各縣市政府來執行至於各縣市政府怎麼執行要看各縣市政府的一個預算那縣市政府的"},{"start":55.502,"end":78.112,"text":"執行方式多半都是由學校的校務來做勢力檢查勢力有狀況的學生發單子再去醫療院所做檢查至於校務多久幫學童做檢查要做檢查的補助來依他們的一個標準多少錢由各縣市政府來決定以台北市為例國小生400學齡前480"},{"start":81.345,"end":109.962,"text":"那至於中央的國健署做什麼國健署是四年做一次的抽樣檢測這四年的抽樣檢測請問抽多少樣本到底準不準確部長好我想謝謝委員對這個兒童的一個勢力的重視我想剛剛您也非常精準的來分析了全國的一個狀況那國健署所做的調查是不是容我請國健署吳署長跟委員報告"},{"start":111.984,"end":129.26,"text":"委員好,我們做兒童視力調查,每四年會入校調查一次,來公布參觀的數據。我知道,所以我就說你四年抽測檢查,抽多少樣本?到底準不準確?那個樣本是國際公認的樣本,而且是絕對要有代表性的。"},{"start":129.54,"end":146.989,"text":"好 那部長可能面臨三個問題我們來探討看看第一 在學校做視力檢查可能環境非標準的視力檢查環境容易造成檢查的一個誤差讓校務承擔過度的一個所謂的視力保健工作第二 各縣市的補助標準不同"},{"start":147.489,"end":169.763,"text":"是否會造成資源不足的地方沒有受到充足的近視防治的一個醫療第三四年的監測只做到抽樣調查但是是否可以做到全國代表性的一個隨機抽樣實在是有相當大的一個疑慮啦作為一個家長畢竟不同的學校學生的學習狀況還有生活習慣的差異都會有所不同喔而且"},{"start":170.183,"end":188.946,"text":"甚至同學校的不同班級就很不同很難利用抽樣調查來把它變成全國性的一個樣態所以抽樣監測能不能有效我們不曉得但真正學童的視力狀況不能僅有一般的例行性視力檢查所以我希望部長"},{"start":189.767,"end":210.417,"text":"因為近視是不可逆的所以我具體建議衛福部全國學童的一個視力保健統一由衛福部以計劃方式委託相關的醫事團體來執行除了能夠讓全國的學童啊做近視視力的一個檢查之外還有並做視力保健的預防早期發現斜落視"},{"start":211.837,"end":240.252,"text":"並進行近視防治如果判定有病灶的一個可能性發生可以儘早去醫療院所來做診治一來可以減輕校務的負擔二來可以保護全國學童的一個視力三來衛福部可以有真實全國小學友的一個近視狀況的一個資料可以全面的完整的去了解全國的一個視力健康的一個情形也可以及時的回饋給家長學校縣市政府最後"},{"start":240.892,"end":263.198,"text":"全國有這樣子的一個資料以後可以因應後續作為部長您可不可以回應一下我的建議我想學校衛生法有它的一定的規定那這個部分如果不足我站在比較專業的立場上以及個人的經驗我認為委員所提的真的是非常重要因為其實近視不是不可逆的如果你在小時候"},{"start":264.258,"end":287.421,"text":"抓出來 譬如說200度國小小二小三200度 如果你好好的治療到18歲19歲都可以保存在200度之內到23歲的時候是整個眼睛成形的時候你就可以不用去滴散銅劑所以這個部分謝謝您的提醒但是我希望說剛剛我的建議啦 您覺得可以嗎"},{"start":287.841,"end":307.506,"text":"可不可以研議一下當然可以啊當然可以我想為了孩子我的建議很具體啦那我們也希望說能夠透過這樣的方式然後來做視力保健您覺得這樣子利益良善可行度可以嗎我想是對於兒童的一個視力保健要投入"},{"start":309.086,"end":335.823,"text":"多少資源來保證我們都支持來研議一下啦一定要來研議另外我想請問青光眼不易察覺通常自己也不曉得自己有青光眼而青光眼作為全球不可逆的一個市民首位請問全國對於青光眼的預防保健做了些什麼對不起這是成人部分啦那我也想一併就探討那同樣的近視族群的高風險視網膜剝離也是一樣那衛福部對這一個的預防保健有沒有"},{"start":336.523,"end":342.765,"text":"高度近視的病發症不曉得吳司長這邊吳司長 視網膜玻璃這個保健應該是沒有吧應該是這樣說我們是宣導預防告訴民眾哪一些風險比如說高度近視者當然我們沒有辦法去做相關的"},{"start":354.628,"end":378.601,"text":"那我想現行的視網膜剝離發生後才開始治療資料顯示2022年視網膜剝離手術共4080次總人數3721人如果有針對高風險族群進行所謂的預防保健的話健康餘命就能拉長因此我們希望從健康餘命的角度來看待這個眼睛的一個預防保健所以我希望在成人預防保健中部長"},{"start":379.783,"end":385.021,"text":"針對高風險族群增加國人的眼底篩檢項目你可不可以"},{"start":385.874,"end":408.822,"text":"具體的建議我們謝謝這個我個人從醫療上的角度覺得非常重要也有必要性那我們一定我們會邀請專家來研議你覺得我建議這樣是好的吧而且剛剛有提到是高風險這個部分我們也有相關的數據這個是有必要現在是用什麼方式就是說我們當然希望所有的"},{"start":410.998,"end":435.555,"text":"既有危險性 高度性是可能有部長你也戴眼鏡 你近視幾度啊我是很高 所以我是你屬場也戴眼鏡的危險性的之一不好意思 因為剛剛現場站著的四位官員都戴眼鏡了包括我都戴眼鏡了我想這個剛剛我說的視力保健真的很重要不管是兒童的 成人的 我們一起來努力"},{"start":436.215,"end":457.052,"text":"我們從早期預防治療盡量不要讓他加深度數以及說已經高度近視以後的併化症我們這個前程我們都應該給他最好的照顧這我們委員所指教的我們最後30秒 召委拜託我想這個社會救助法原本有規劃要送這個行政院目前還沒送吧"},{"start":458.223,"end":484.971,"text":"社會救助法我還是要提醒你啦沒關係我沒有要去做一個偵探但我要跟你講社會救助法身心障礙者權益保障法因為的確有一些意見所以我們回來再研議還有兒托草案啦兒少相關的權益保障法這個都還沒有看到進度加強一下都一直在努力拜託一下加強一下一定一定好謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時9分）有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還有國健署署長。"],["主席：吳署長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好！部長，眼睛是靈魂之窗，這句形容真的很貼切。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：近年來3C產品使用率高，加上近七成的國人有近視，眼底容易發生病變，日後發生青光眼、視網膜剝離的機率大幅提高，近視每增加100度，近視性黃斑病變發生率增加58%，視網膜剝離發生率增加30%，白內障發生率是21%，青光眼發生率是增加20%。","先就兒童視力的保健請教一下部長，現在兒童視力的預防保健都由各縣市政府來執行，至於各縣市政府怎麼執行要看各縣市政府的預算。縣市政府的執行方式多半都是由學校的校護來做視力檢查，視力有狀況的學生就發單子，他再去醫療院所做檢查。至於校護多久幫學童做檢查，做檢查的補助是依他們的一個標準，多少錢由各縣市政府來決定，以臺北市為例，國小生400元，學齡前480元，至於中央的國健署做什麼？國健署是4年做一次抽樣檢測，這4年一次的抽樣檢測，請問抽多少樣本？到底準不準確？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員對兒童視力的重視，剛剛您也非常精準地分析了全國的狀況，針對國健署所做的調查，是不是容我請國健署吳署長向委員報告？"],["吳署長昭軍：委員好。我們做兒童視力調查，每4年會入校調查一次來公布相關的數據。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，所以我說你4年抽測檢查，抽多少樣本？到底準不準確？"],["吳署長昭軍：那個樣本是國際公認的樣本，而且是絕對要有代表性。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，部長，可能面臨三個問題啦！我們來探討看看。第一，在學校做視力檢查，可能環境非標準的視力檢查環境，容易造成檢查的誤差，讓校護承擔過度的視力保健工作。第二，各縣市的補助標準不同，是否會造成資源不足的地方沒有受到充足的近視防治醫療？第三，4年的監測只做到抽樣調查，是否可以做到全國代表性的隨機抽樣？作為一個家長，對此實在是有相當大的疑慮，畢竟在不同的學校，學生的學習狀況及生活習慣的差異都會有所不同，甚至同學校不同班級就很不同，很難利用抽樣調查來把它變成全國性的一個樣態。","抽樣監測能不能有效我們不曉得，但學童的視力狀況不能僅有一般的例行性視力檢查，部長，因為近視是不可逆的，所以我具體建議衛福部，全國學童的視力保健統一由衛福部以計畫方式委託相關的醫事團體來執行，除了能夠讓全國的學童做近視視力的檢查之外，還有做視力保健的預防，早期發現斜弱視，並進行近視防治。如果判定有病灶的可能性發生，得以儘早去醫療院所做診治，一來可以減輕校護的負擔，二來可以保護全國學童的視力，三來衛福部可以有全國小朋友近視狀況的真實資料，可以全面地、完整地去瞭解全國視力健康的情形，也可以即時地回饋給家長、學校、縣市政府。最後，全國有這樣子的資料以後，可以因應後續作為，部長，您可不可以回應一下我的建議？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我想學校衛生法有它一定的規定，這個部分如果不足，我站在比較專業的立場以及個人的經驗，我認為委員所提的真的是非常重要，其實近視不是不可逆啦！如果你在小時候抓出來，譬如說200度，小二、小三是200度，如果你好好地治療，到18歲、19歲都可以保持在200度之內。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，謝謝你的指正。"],["邱部長泰源：到23歲整個眼睛成形的時候，你就可以不用去滴散瞳劑，所以這個部分謝謝您的提醒，我是覺得……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛的建議您覺得可以嗎？可不可以研議一下？"],["邱部長泰源：當然可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想為了孩子，我的建議很具體啦！我們希望能夠透過這樣的方式來做視力保健，您覺得這樣子立意良善，可行度如何？可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：對於兒童的視力保健要投入多少資源來保障，我們都支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：來研議一下，好不好？來研議一下。"],["邱部長泰源：一定來研議。"],["羅委員廷瑋：另外，青光眼不易察覺，通常自己也不曉得自己有青光眼，而青光眼作為全球不可逆的失明首位，請問全國對於青光眼的預防保健做了些什麼？對不起，這是成人部分，我也想一併探討。同樣的，近視族群的高風險，視網膜剝離也是一樣，衛福部對這一個的預防保健有沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：高度近視預防它的併發症……"],["羅委員廷瑋：視網膜剝離。"],["邱部長泰源：不曉得吳署長這邊……"],["羅委員廷瑋：吳署長，視網膜剝離這個保健應該是沒有吧？"],["吳署長昭軍：應該是這樣說，我們是宣導然後預防，告訴民眾哪一些風險，比方說高度近視者……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是宣導而已，沒有預防保健。"],["吳署長昭軍：當然，我們沒有辦法去做相關的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，我想現行都是視網膜剝離發生後才開始治療，資料顯示2022年的視網膜剝離手術共4,080次，總人數3,721人，如果有針對高風險族群進行預防保健的話，健康餘命就能拉長，因此我們希望從健康餘命的角度來看待眼睛的預防保健，所以我建議在成人預防保健中，部長，針對高風險族群增加國人的眼底篩檢項目，你可不可以？具體地建議。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，我個人從醫療的角度覺得非常重要，也有必要性，我們會邀請專家來研議這個議題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你覺得我建議這樣是好的吧？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：而且剛剛有提到高風險這個部分，我們也有相關的順序嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：這個是有必要，現在是用什麼方式啦！我們當然希望所有具危險性的，就是高度近視可能有幾個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，你也戴眼鏡，你近視幾度？署長也戴眼鏡。"],["邱部長泰源：我也是很高，所以我是你講的危險族群之一。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，因為剛剛現場站著的4位官員都戴眼鏡，包括我都戴眼鏡，剛剛我說的視力保健真的很重要，不管是兒童的跟成人的，我們一起來努力，那這個部分……"],["邱部長泰源：我們從早期預防治療，儘量不要讓他加深度數，以及已經高度近視以後的併發症，我們都應該全程給他最好的照顧，這是委員所指教的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後30秒，召委拜託。社會救助法原本有規劃要送行政院，目前還沒送吧？"],["邱部長泰源：社會救助法……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是要提醒你啦！沒關係，我沒有要責難，但我要跟你講，社會救助法、身心障礙者權益保障法……"],["邱部長泰源：因為的確有一些意見，所以我們再回來研議，現在還在研議。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好啦！還有兒托草案、兒少相關的權益保障法，這個都還沒有看到進度，加強一下。"],["邱部長泰源：有啦！都一直在努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：拜託一下，加強一下，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，一定、一定，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0059464702f9818819ac021369aff85baca7a32b531de3e806a92922fd67a804f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:07:47 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其實我主要是要問國安會吳釗燮秘書長的案子但是因為您也做過國安會的秘書長我想請問一下 因為這一次爆發的是國安會秘書長吳釗燮他有一個跟著他十多年的資深助理 涉入了共諜案"},{"start":48.602,"end":67.792,"text":"那他這邊有一個比較嚴重的問題就是呢在星期一我們在做質詢的時候就在隔壁調查局說這位何仁傑他只有在任用的時候呢就是進入國安會的時候曾經做過一次忠誠查核"},{"start":69.213,"end":96.374,"text":"那麼之後呢他就再也沒有做過任何的忠誠查核或者其他的特殊查核那我後來在禮拜一的時候我也請教外交部的部長因為他進入國安會他第一次是先進入國安會然後他再跟著進外交部根據我們公務人員服務法裡面明文規定我們這些人員當你出任"},{"start":97.835,"end":113.888,"text":"調任在任的時候都需要再做查核而且如果你是會接觸到機敏的資料國防有個重大的國安資料的時候他還要再做特殊查核"},{"start":114.528,"end":140.462,"text":"好所以呢事實上已經證明吳釗燮秘書長他有違法之遇他沒有讓跟著他十多年的助理然後依循這個我們公務人員服務法相關的規定好所以這邊我就請教部長您做過國安會秘書長然後現在也做國防部部長這都是重大的國安的機構我想請問您"},{"start":142.023,"end":157.313,"text":"跟著你的資深的助理也好如果你也是從國安會到國防部那麼在你身邊的人有沒有依照公務人員服務法來做相關的查核"},{"start":158.395,"end":181.998,"text":"跟委員報告,您剛剛提到的,因為剛剛外交部次長也提過了在2016的時候,核心進入國安會的時候,就有做過特殊查核所以國安會進來的部分,如果會相關的這些機要的運用,因為國安會不是一個機敏單位嗎?"},{"start":183.039,"end":201.809,"text":"那都會做相關的特殊查核那國防部的部分我想我們我現在是國防部在國防部服務所以有關國防部的這一個揭秘資格的一些相關的作為我剛剛在前面有好幾位委員我都已經答詢過了我們現在有一個"},{"start":203.17,"end":217.65,"text":"國軍涉密人員安全調查作業的規定在今年2月定班那都以涉密的這個等級就是包括他是能夠接觸密、機密、極機密跟絕對機密然後來做不同深度跟廣度的查核"},{"start":217.99,"end":226.837,"text":"那我請問部長根據你自己做過國安會秘書長也做國防部部長以現在我們剛才講的狀況您覺得吳釗燮秘書長應不應該停職來接受調查"},{"start":233.454,"end":259.634,"text":"我想委員的問題我沒有辦法加以評論那因為現在就我的理解因為剛剛外交部也都有回答過其他的一些問題現在主要就是說行政院要會同考生有訂定一個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員的特殊查核辦法這個特查的這個辦法裡面它會有一個各機關要辦理特查職務的一個一覽表"},{"start":260.535,"end":276.054,"text":"那就這個部分我想院裡面正在檢討這個你們都是辦法我剛剛講的是公務人員服務法這個還不是辦法不是你們的這些行政命令如果基本上"},{"start":278.136,"end":303.067,"text":"連公務人員服務法通相關的規定都違反了那請問一下吳釗燮秘書長是不是應該停職接受調查因為他的這些機要而且或者他任用的一等資義竟然沒有依法來接受相關的不要說特殊調查依法應該接受的這個中程調查他都沒有接受難道不應該停職調查嗎"},{"start":304.551,"end":314.12,"text":"因為剛剛外交部也回答了,那個何先生按照這個特查的辦法,因為他好像不具有公務員的身份,然後是屬於聘僱人員"},{"start":315.663,"end":340.412,"text":"一般的 所以只是進行一般的查核 沒有辦法進行所謂特殊查核但好像我 因為我只是今天一起同來備詢委員來問我的話似乎應該問外交部 因為他們有做過一般的查核我了解 我了解 因為我剛剛就講嘛 真正應該在在上面備詢的人 畏罪潛逃 心虛不敢來那另外請教一下 我們在講一些 我們在講一些就是說"},{"start":342.913,"end":345.654,"text":"一些涉嫌就是涉入共諜案因為確實我們在國軍裡面也有很多的單位就出現了這些相關的問題那比如說最近包含就是在我們的士林憲兵隊出現五星旗的飄揚或者是憲兵裡面也有士官涉入了共諜案而且有不法獲利"},{"start":368.32,"end":396.777,"text":"然後再加上我們的私通電軍以及憲兵的士官兵也有涉嫌涉入共諜案憲兵抓共諜結果共諜在憲兵裡面所以我想請問部長在這個部分那國防部要如何的防範要如何防止抓共諜的單位裡面卻一而再再而三的發生像這樣子涉入共諜的情勢"},{"start":398.134,"end":414.55,"text":"我想我們對這個當然變成共諜,這感到痛心但是我還是跟委員報告,這個案子其實就是官兵主動檢舉所以我們要加強這樣子的一個保防教育那也看到我們有87.5的案子"},{"start":416.332,"end":444.467,"text":"都是由官兵檢舉產生的所以可見保防教育的重要性那另外剛剛也提到了人員考核的管制也是相當重要所以我們剛剛也提到了我們不但要做保防教育的一個宣導一直到這個最基層的官兵然後當然人員的涉密的能夠他要承辦涉密這個時候呢我們要對於他派任這些機敏族或涉密的這個部分呢"},{"start":444.967,"end":460.159,"text":"要從事這個安全的查核這個部分也是重要的所以我想我們一方面要加強保防教育然後一方面要加強人員的查核這個部分是我們應該要努力精進的"},{"start":460.839,"end":485.06,"text":"好 那我希望就說在國軍裡面其實不管是退役或者是現役其實我們都會希望這些相關的涉入共諜案能夠減少而且最好就是從此以後就不要再聽到好不好 謝謝是 我也希望我們精進的之後呢能夠不要讓這樣的事情發生最主要就是要具有敵我的意識好 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盤點過了我們暫時的去"},{"start":251.221,"end":271.201,"text":"因為這個所有的盤點就是是不是包括所有的廠商很難我們在這裡面這幾個月裡面不斷的在多次的盤點也透過了座談也透過工協會去了解那請大本席接著請教那你們知道潛在衝擊的金額和失業人數的預估嗎有沒有這個數字有沒有"},{"start":278.812,"end":304.795,"text":"國安的關稅因為這個還沒有確定所以我們是密切觀察中所以目前這個還沒有好那是否有成立了跨部會的小組協助企業可能的這個他可能會進行需要的補貼融資法規等配套是有已經啟動了報告委員我們我隨著總統或者隨著院長我們去去座談"},{"start":305.99,"end":331.897,"text":"院長或者總統都帶著經濟部財政部勞動部這個幾個主要的這個部會跟廠商有關的這些部會下去直接聽廠商的需求然後回來再檢討所以才會提出九大這個九大項20個措施我方應變的機制還有負責的窗口也都有產業他都知道要找誰嗎"},{"start":334.141,"end":356.155,"text":"我們是透過工協會最後本席請教我們現在對美的溝通談判目前有沒有任何的成效我們有沒有成功爭取任何一項232關稅的排除或者是我們台灣有沒有哪一項產品獲得例外或優惠的對待"},{"start":356.957,"end":379.498,"text":"報告委員,這個談判是由副院長、正副院長代表所談的他們在進行中根據國際慣例,這個內容都不能夠披露那很抱歉,我相信他們談判完了以後有好的成效也一定會公告給我們國人了解這以上跟您報告"},{"start":380.373,"end":394.783,"text":"好吧 我們最後希望不要讓每一次的貿易危機都變成我們國內政策崩盤的理由所以面對挑戰最好的方式就是我們準備好勝出部長加油是 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":958,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時8分）謝謝主席，本席請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，本席在這裡要針對一個關鍵的問題，請您說清楚，因為在經濟部今天的報告，包含其他單位的報告都沒有看到。關於美國啟動232國安調查影響的範圍，我想您很清楚，包括鋼鐵、鋁、半導體、藥品、汽車零組件及其衍生物等等。請問政府目前掌握了哪些受影響的產業？有沒有完成風險評估報告？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是有掌握啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是全盤掌握還是掌握了多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對比較重要的，大概就是半導體產業、資通訊產業……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們只有對半導體掌握，其他都沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：就是重要的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼叫做重要的部分？"],["郭部長智輝：重要的部分就是我們出口金額比較大的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：出口金額比較大的才列為重要，出口金額不大的就任由它自生自滅？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在分輕重緩急的時候，總是要有一個依據，然後對產業來講……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是沒錯啦，但是你們有沒有全面去掌握嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：當然我們是全面去掌握啦，但我們認為這一些內容包括智慧型手機、電腦、部分電子產品，還有半導體這一塊占了百分之七、八十，這個是非常非常重要。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們只針對您所說的這個去掌握？"],["郭部長智輝：也不是這個樣子，不能夠這樣給我下斷句……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，我是問問題！你說有掌握，請問是哪一個部會或哪一個單位負責統整這些調查？是經濟部嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟這些廠商座談了解他們，調查當然不是我們嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：那麼是哪一個單位？"],["郭部長智輝：調查是美國啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦，我是說我們自己國內！我剛剛不是請教您，我們的政府要掌握我們受影響的產業，政府現在要準備880億，總不能政府自己主觀的關心誰就去了解誰，認為重要的才去掌握，你沒有……"],["郭部長智輝：不是這樣，我們政府不是沒有邏輯在做事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在就是在看邏輯啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我在回答你的問題。我的意思是我們盤點出來以後，認為最重要的，占我們70%的這些產業……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你盤點的是你自己設定……"],["郭部長智輝：根據我們出超所呈現的金額這一部分，然後我們會受創的到底有哪一些，然後去組合的嘛！我們發現這裡面最大的金額，我們應該怎麼去因應；其他的傳統產業在這裡面占30%，也非常重要，所以我們要怎麼去因應，我們是這樣去盤點的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以金額比較大的，你有方法；對金額比較小的，你有照顧嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對金額比較小的每一家廠商，我們也都在盤點他們可能會碰到的影響是怎麼樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：盤點完成了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：幾乎都快盤點完成了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：幾乎的意思是快完成，還沒有完全嗎？到底是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我的文學沒有那麼好，所以沒有辦法回答你的「幾乎」的定義是什麼。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個跟文學沒有關係，因為你的回答，我要確認我是不是聽懂你的意思，所以你們盤點完成了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都盤點過了。因為這所有的盤點是不是包括所有的廠商，真的很難，我們在這幾個月，不斷的在多次的盤點，也透過座談，包括公協會也會去了解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席接著請教，你們知道潛在衝擊的金額和失業人數的預估嗎？有沒有這個數字？"],["郭部長智輝：因為國安的關稅還沒有確定，我們仍在密切觀察中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以目前這個部分還沒有，好。是否成立了跨部會的小組，協助企業進行他們可能需要的補貼、融資法規等配套？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經啟動了？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們隨著總統、院長去座談，院長或者總統都帶著經濟部、財政部、勞動部這幾個跟廠商有關的部會下去，直接聽廠商的需求，然後回來檢討，所以才會提出這九大項二十個措施……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，我方應變的機制，還有負責的窗口，也都有？產業知道他們要找誰嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是透過公協會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那麼本席最後再請教，我們對美的溝通談判，目前有沒有任何的成效？我們有沒有成功爭取任何一項232關稅的排除？或者是我們臺灣有沒有哪一項產品獲得例外或優惠的對待？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個談判是由鄭副院長帶隊在談，他們在進行中……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是問目前有沒有任何一些明確的結果？"],["郭部長智輝：根據國際慣例，這個內容都不能夠披露，很抱歉。我相信他們談判完了以後有好的成效，也一定會公告給國人了解。以上跟您報告。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好吧，最後希望不要讓每一次的貿易危機都變成我們國內政策崩盤的理由。所以，面對挑戰最好的方式，就是我們準備好勝出！部長加油，一起努力！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc002c9e8dfcec62c3da01776dcf2b4a8ffca7a32b531de3e80a776b5aef8effbec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:06:22 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主席請我們法務部正部長"},{"start":21.257,"end":45.075,"text":"好 部長好 部長本席也很關心另外一個議題跟我們法務部這邊有相關就是這兩天又看到有黃姓藝人他又被破獲這個持有未成年的影像 性影像586部而且這586部的性影像最低 最小年紀的受害者只有10歲"},{"start":48.031,"end":62.871,"text":"創意私房這個事情從去年開始延燒到現在我們可以先請教不針對個人個案但是整體的案件的一個調查是不是創意私房裡面的這一些會員現在都有在檢調這邊做調查"},{"start":66.241,"end":89.182,"text":"報告我們非常重視這個問題的確是量刑公憤所以台高縣已經責成台中地檢來主辦台北地檢來協辦這三個地檢都有發新聞稿來做宣示現在是針對這個因為我們有看到八十多位的會員是有被"},{"start":90.543,"end":116.014,"text":"剪掉 調查當中嗎?現在就在查 因為新聞稿有講 是好 那再來 本時要問的是那 影像的拍攝者他是直接犯罪的因為 您看到喔 來 這個是新聞新聞裡面講是說創意私房的會員涉及性侵性侵本身就是一個非常最大惡極的犯罪那 還要求學生拍學生證"},{"start":116.914,"end":140.172,"text":"那所以他在現在我們所公佈的這一些資料裡面他講是說為了要讓這些會員滿足他們的授意私慾啊他還讓這個被拍攝者他有他的一個個人資料不管是他的社群帳號或者說他的學生證所以還可以讓創意私房的會員去找到這個學生那就是有明顯被害者再來我們看下一頁"},{"start":142.17,"end":158.392,"text":"甚至還有傳出說有14歲少女被性侵200多次那我們現在要問現在這些影像是不是都已經在調查當中那這些犯罪者的這部分後續是不是有再持續的追蹤"},{"start":161.188,"end":183.028,"text":"這個創意司法這部分就持續一直在辦那這部分委員關心的問題現在台中地檢就在處理了就在積極的來申辦中那我想我們也讓檢察官能夠有一個時間讓他去查本席現在會問的是主要在於是什麼主要在於是說我們要看到是我們整個法務部的一個態度"},{"start":184.608,"end":201.193,"text":"而且重點在於是這不是說只是丟給一個地檢署這有兩個地檢署還有高檢署先跟你說你現在的做法因為我覺得這涉及到三個層面部長請您仔細聽一下本席講的第一受害者"},{"start":202.193,"end":231.033,"text":"他過去真的有被受害而且是慘無人道的受害而他有可能如果說有這些影像的話是有可能找到這些受害者但是我們要極其小心給協助輔導甚至女警甚至相關的人員也許可以跟受害者來取得聯繫讓受害者能夠講出他當時被犯的犯行這是幫他恢復正義第二拍攝者"},{"start":232.389,"end":252.001,"text":"怎麼可以有性侵的過程然後還拍攝下來拍攝下來之後然後賣給別人那拍攝者是誰但目前為什麼沒有看到檢調對於拍攝者這邊有任何的掌握至少媒體上面有看到以及第三高級會員這些會員花錢買這些影像就是該死"},{"start":256.327,"end":284.997,"text":"說不客氣的他沒有直接參與犯罪但是他間接贊助犯罪間接支持犯罪這就是等同犯罪所以這三個層面的部分是我們到目前為止為什麼本行會拿出來我不針對任何一個人但我針對的是整體的案件因為這看起來就是一個犯罪集團有計劃性的犯罪被害者高達數十位甚至上百位加害者也可能有幾百位會員可能有幾千位"},{"start":285.757,"end":301.304,"text":"那這一些都應該正義不是不到而是可能晚到但絕對不能不到那我們現在法務部在辦理的過程當中有沒有集結更多的力量去把這個犯罪集團整體的一個破獲我想這個犯罪是一個"},{"start":302.384,"end":331.63,"text":"是一個集團性的 這個委員講得很清楚所以我們就是有一個專屬的來做一個針對這個創意私房來做一個偵辦 那當然委員關心的包括這個販賣 販售的 上網的或者是拍攝者等等這部分檢察會都會嚴加來做一個那另外那個受被害人這部分那這個保護這部分我想會依照相關的法規來做一個來一個保護如果有不足的 那個我們再來修法"},{"start":334.732,"end":352.6,"text":"這部分我們要等因為我們還是要檢查過還需要一些時間來做部長我可以請教創意私房現在你剛剛一直講說高檢 低檢都有偵辦這一個現在這一個就是說我們針對創意私房有多少人這一個組因為我之前我已經公開講說我認為啊"},{"start":354.361,"end":379.954,"text":"法務部或是現在政府應該針對這個事件甚至跨部會成立一個跟衛福部跟相關部會成立一個創意私房打擊小組就是把這整個給一網打盡給抓出來因為很明顯嘛今天黃姓藝人的他的硬碟裡面有五百多個影像五百多個影像每一個影像可能都代表一個被害者一個加害者以及一個犯罪事實"},{"start":381.223,"end":398.066,"text":"我們說那個藝人啊他的什麼手機被扣了之後然後他去這個叫說打人計程車叫說打人都可以透過那個影像再去案外案再去查出來了那黃姓藝人的這件事情他的硬碟裡面又被扣後500多步"},{"start":398.647,"end":425.572,"text":"的這個影像那這500多部是不是就是直接證據是可以 應該要把這個後面給抓出來黃姓議員的這些的這是由檢察官再去從公安裡面去挖出 是去弄出來的 是如果檢察沒有就仔細抽試剝檢去從他的硬碟裡面去抓出這些的檢案資料我們是不清楚有這個 是所以我現在沒有否定檢察官我現在講的是說出來之後我們後續要怎麼做是不是部長這邊 部長"},{"start":427.725,"end":455.26,"text":"部長不用急我今天是很理性的跟你討論因為我們共同都希望我覺得這是政府部門的一個宣示的態度就是說告訴所有人告訴所有民眾這樣的行為中華民國是不允許的台灣是不允許的有任何感染去加害去拍攝性影像尤其是未成年我們絕對不允許你也許逃得了一時逃不了一世"},{"start":456.909,"end":479.406,"text":"部長 來請你態度的部分 整省公分了這些以拍攝的這些為成年人的這些的性影像在這邊我相信絕對我們是絕對是查辦到底絕對不寬待我想這個態度 這個我們是講這個檢查機關絕對是有個態度所以我們才會結合台北地檢跟台中地檢來做合辦"},{"start":480.126,"end":504.625,"text":"用這些專辦附幼的檢察官來全力查緝好 部長這件事情我會持續追我想我提出來讓部長這邊更了解說現在的狀況那尤其是有這樣子一個被害少女被性侵兩百多次我覺得這天理藍濃他的兇手到底是誰這個我們會來查一定要把他抓出來"},{"start":505.566,"end":533.825,"text":"一定不能讓他逃離甚至我之前刑法222條未修正性侵過程裡面有用影像記錄錄出來的話就是加重性侵罪處七年以上有期徒刑一罪一罰兩百多次讓他關到死我覺得都不為過好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝我們一起來努力謝謝洪委員 謝謝部長我們知道麥委員已經在現場不過因為我先前已經宣告休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1032,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時6分）主席，謝謝，請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。本席也很關心另外一個議題，跟法務部相關，這兩天又看到黃姓藝人被破獲持有未成年性影像586部，而且這586部的性影像，最小年紀的受害者只有10歲。部長，創意私房這個事情，從去年開始延燒到現在，先請教不針對個人個案，對整體案件的調查，是不是創意私房的這些會員現在都有在檢調這邊調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：向委員報告，我們非常重視這個問題，的確是引起公憤，所以臺高檢已經責成臺中地檢主辦，臺北地檢協辦，這部分三個地檢都有發新聞稿做這樣的宣示。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們看到八十多位會員現在有被檢調調查當中，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，現在正在查，新聞稿有講了，現在就在查。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，再來本席要問的是，影像的拍攝者是直接犯罪的，我們看新聞所講創意私房的會員涉嫌性侵，性侵本身就是一個非常罪大惡極的犯罪，還要求學生拍他們的學生證。現在我們所公布的這些資料裡面，他講為了要讓這些會員滿足獸慾、私慾，他還讓他們有被拍攝者的個人資料，不管是社群帳號或者是學生證，所以還可以讓創意私房的會員找到這個學生，那就是有明顯的被害者。","我們繼續看下一頁。甚至還傳出有14歲少女被性侵兩百多次，我們現在要問，現在這一些影像是不是都已經在調查當中？這些犯罪者後續是不是有在持續追蹤？"],["鄭部長銘謙：創意私房這部分持續都一直在辦，持續在辦，這部分委員關心的問題，現在臺中地檢就在處理了，在積極的審判中，我想我們讓檢察官能夠有時間去查。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席現在會問的主要在於我們要看到法務部的態度，而且重點在於這不只是丟給地檢署……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，這有兩個地檢，還有高檢署。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在的做法……因為我覺得這涉及到三個層面，部長，請您仔細聽一下本席講的。第一，受害者過去真的有受害，而且是慘無人道的受害，如果有這些影像的話，有可能找到這些受害者。我們要極其小心協助輔導，甚至女警或是相關人員也許可以跟受害者取得聯繫，讓受害者能夠講出當時被侵犯的犯行，這是幫他恢復正義。第二是拍攝者，怎麼可以將性侵的過程還拍攝下來，拍攝下來之後賣給別人，這個拍攝者是誰？到目前為止我們沒有看到檢調對於拍攝者有任何的掌握，至少媒體上沒有看到。第三是高級會員，這些會員花錢買這些影像就是該死，說不客氣的，他沒有直接參與犯罪，但是他間接贊助犯罪，間接支持犯罪，這就是等同犯罪。這三個層面，為什麼本席會拿出來？我不針對任何一個人，我針對的是整體的案件，因為這看起來就是一個犯罪集團，有計畫性的犯罪，被害者高達數十位，甚至上百位，加害者也可能有幾百位，會員可能有幾千位，對於這些人，正義應該不是不到，而是可能晚到，但絕對不能不到。現在法務部在辦理的過程當中，有沒有集結更多的力量，整體破獲這個犯罪集團？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個犯罪是集團性的，委員也講得很清楚，所以我們有專組針對創意私房偵辦。委員關心包括販賣、販售、上網或是拍攝者等等，這部分檢察官都會嚴加偵辦。另外，針對被害人保護這部分，我想會依照相關的法規保護，如果有不足的，那我們再來修法，不過這部分我們當然還要等，因為檢察官還需要一些時間來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教部長，針對創意私房，你一直講高檢、地檢都有偵辦，請教針對創意私房偵辦的這個組有多少人？我之前公開講，我認為法務部或是政府應該針對這個事件，甚至跨部會跟衛福部及相關部會成立一個創意私房打擊小組，把這整個一網打盡給抓出來。很明顯嘛，今天黃姓藝人的硬碟裡面有五百多個影像，這五百多個影像的每一個影像可能都代表一個被害者、一個加害者，以及一個犯罪事實。我們說有個藝人什麼手機被扣了之後，然後他針對計程車去教唆打人，都可以透過那個影像再有案外案去查出來了。同樣的黃姓藝人這件事情，他的硬碟裡面又被扣獲五百多部影像，這五百多部是不是就是直接證據，應該要把後面這些人給抓出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：黃姓藝人這些事情，是由檢察官再去從個案裡面挖出來、去弄出來，如果檢察官沒有仔細的抽絲剝繭，從他的硬碟裡面去抓出這些檔案資料，我們不清楚有這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我現在沒有否定檢察官，我現在講的是出來之後我們後續要怎麼做，是不是部長這邊……部長，你不用急，我今天是很理性的跟你討論，因為我們都共同希望，我覺得這是政府部門的一個宣示態度，就是告訴所有人、告訴所有民眾，這樣的行為中華民國是不允許的，臺灣是不允許的，有任何人膽敢去加害、去拍攝性影像，尤其是未成年，我們絕對不允許，你也許逃得了一時，逃不了一世。部長，請就你態度的部分……"],["鄭部長銘謙：拍攝這些未成年人的性影像引起人神共憤，我相信我們絕對是查辦到底，絕對不寬貸，委員所講這個態度，我們檢察機關絕對是有個態度，所以我們才會結合臺北地檢跟臺中地檢合辦，用這些專辦這些婦幼的檢察官全力查緝。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，這件事情我會持續追，我今天提出來是要讓部長更瞭解現在的狀況，尤其有被害少女被性侵兩百多次，我覺得這天理難容。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個我們也是……"],["洪委員孟楷：兇手到底是誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會來查。"],["洪委員孟楷：一定要把他抓出來，一定不能讓他逃離。我之前對刑法第二百二十二條也提出修正，性侵過程有用影像記錄就是加重性侵罪，處七年以上有期徒刑，一罪一罰，兩百多次，就讓他關到死，我覺得都不為過，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員，我們一起來努力。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長。","現在麥委員已經在現場，不過因為我先前已經宣告休息5分鐘，我就依照先前所宣告的，我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（12時15分）","繼續開會（12時21分）"],["主席：現在繼續會開會。","請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0beaccb994578947416f08763592c0c24ca7a32b531de3e802b572682c7da76a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:09:43 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有請次長委員好次長好 次長我國的藝術銀行它是從2013年正式啟動那目前大概是有收藏2900多筆的這個收藏品截止到去年7月為止大概出租展覽大概573件"},{"start":31.926,"end":56.511,"text":"那我特別要講到這個藝術銀行因為它不僅僅是跟文化有關它跟外交也有關那藝術銀行的作品我看文化部有跟外交部合作那過去有送往美國、澳洲、新加坡等地那做一個外交管社的一個展示那我這邊特別要來去表達說我對這樣的作法的支持那第二個部分就是說文化部本身在海外"},{"start":57.091,"end":79.754,"text":"那我看到有在美國華府啊紐約啊洛杉磯休斯頓等總共有17個據點那外館作為台灣文化的櫥窗向世界各地來推廣我們的藝術作品我覺得這都是非常值得去鼓勵的那先來外交部來分享給我們所有文化部的同仁也還有我們其他的這個部會的委員"},{"start":81.263,"end":95.755,"text":"有111處住外的館舍如果再加上一些比方說是植物宿舍還有各部會住外的這些喬教中心文化中心等等的話還有很多地方可以參展我為什麼要把這些東西都列出來"},{"start":96.596,"end":117.867,"text":"因為如果你注意到我們共出租573件其實是不到兩成的出租率那我認為說我們可以做的是把例如說我上會期有提案就是文化藝術獎促促進條例的第15條修正案我是希望說相關的政府單位用既有的資源來去拓展文化公眾的外交"},{"start":118.587,"end":136.958,"text":"我想請教一下現在藝術銀行的出租率不到兩成文化部要怎麼評估這個資源運用的成效你們覺得可以用什麼樣的方式去改進你們認為可以再跟外交部合作來去盤點這些其他的外交空間把我們的本土的藝術品能夠到我們自己的國外的這些住處來去展出"},{"start":137.868,"end":152.093,"text":"當然我想文化部非常樂意可以推動這個藝術銀行的出租我想這裡面後面這一幅畫立法院那幅畫也是我們藝術銀行提供的那跟外交部的合作其實我們一直是樂觀其成那重點是大家就是要"},{"start":153.113,"end":179.763,"text":"進行預算的編列啦因為只要有場所只要有預算其實我們是非常希望可以推動要談什麼優惠我們都可以來談那我們也很希望可以透過公部門的力量把台灣的藝術品推向國際所以只要像譬如說在我們這個洛杉磯辦事處今年搬新的空間嘛他就有空間可以來放置或者來懸掛那我們就會來促成這樣的合作計畫所以的確是希望外交部可以積極的來租用我們藝術銀行的這些藝術作品"},{"start":182.324,"end":201.49,"text":"我也要藉由這個機會因為我們這個諮詢的時候我們嘉義的鄉親都有看到那我們包含我們嘉義的這些竹旗我們有木屐然後這個在這個其他我們山區的鄉鎮還有鐵還是一些鐵柱的這些他們的雕塑品等等這些創作真的都"},{"start":202.87,"end":230.138,"text":"我不希望它只是只在我們嘉義而已它能夠有機會能夠到其他國家讓我們的本土藝術家的作品讓他們也可以感受到榮耀感因為這些本土藝術家他們缺乏的一個是展示的機會在國際的舞台上讓其他的國家看到我們的好作品我認為真的是非常不管是市場的開拓也好或者是我們的影響力的開拓都很有幫助那其實文化藝術品它是會隨著國力增長"},{"start":231.778,"end":251.327,"text":"那也會增長的喔那我最近有注意到其實我們在包含在首都也好還是各大都市開始有很多新的藝廊出現那這種交易的或者是說這個參展的參觀的這些全部都有在"},{"start":252.727,"end":275.072,"text":"等差極速的成長我們先不要說等比極速所以我認為這是一個很有機會的地方那我最後再強調因為上次我去參加加拿大大使的這個晚宴我們就看到說他的官邸有很多加拿大藝術家的作品本土藝術家的作品所以這些都是我們可以做的我們來加強來宣導來推廣讓大家都知道說我們有好作品"},{"start":275.592,"end":287.72,"text":"我們也這樣希望更多地方可以看得到台灣的創作的藝術作品然後可以推向世界那也希望跟外交部跟其他的政府的管社可以做合作"},{"start":288.592,"end":315.325,"text":"好 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我要示範什麼叫做非常優質的質詢不是4加10主席你也大概了解一下好 謝謝最準時的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":987,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時7分）謝謝主席。主席，會議詢問一下，今天列席委員是4分鐘或是4＋10分鐘？"],["主席：4分鐘。原則上，我們會鼓勵委員多質詢，而且今天的時間還可以，因為我們後面還要處理。"],["邱委員志偉：是無邊際的質詢嗎？"],["主席：我們都知道邱志偉委員最準時，好不好？"],["邱委員志偉：這是基本的會議程序嘛！我覺得內政委員會的時間過得比較慢，4分鐘就變成了14分鐘。先請內政部劉世芳部長休息一下，因為剛剛前面的質詢讓你站太久了。","請張榮興張署長。"],["主席：好，張署長有請。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：還有環境部及交通部監理司胡副司長。我來示範一下，什麼是160秒質詢，4分鐘是240秒。"],["主席：好，請相關單位。"],["邱委員志偉：現行噪音管制法第六條規定，製造不具持續性或不易測量足以妨礙他人生活安寧之聲音者，由警察機關依社維法第七十二條進行處理，對不對？署長，你有沒有去過日本？"],["張署長榮興：去過。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有搭乘過日本的交通工具？"],["張署長榮興：沒有，我都是搭乘他們的遊覽車。"],["邱委員志偉：無論是遊覽車或是他們的地下鐵及新幹線等等，在交通運輸工具裡不能講電話，很明確地不能講電話，你知道嗎？"],["張署長榮興：這個……"],["邱委員志偉：包括在公用bus裡面、包括在他們的新幹線裡面，如果你要講電話就必須走到車廂與車廂之間的區域，不但嚴格執行，而且成為他們的一個生活習慣。現在大家都使用通訊軟體，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["邱委員志偉：在傳收時發出的嘟嘟聲音，你有沒有聽過？"],["張署長榮興：有啊！"],["邱委員志偉：哇！好吵啊！我每天搭高鐵3個半小時，如果隔壁比較誇張的直接用擴音講電話，關於他家祖宗十八代的事，我都能知道，直接擴音耶！當然這是屬於極端的個案，但一般普遍都是大聲地講電話。再來是使用通訊軟體傳收時發出的持續性聲音，我的電話絕對是靜音啊！無論任何狀況，絕對都是靜音！這個部分是不是要學習日本的做法？考慮一下，交通部，你們應該要多加宣導，是不是可以學習日本的做法？除了多一點的宣導之外，是不是也可以用法律做一些調整，先請教署長？"],["張署長榮興：如果其他先進國家有這樣的制度，而且我們的法律也能夠完成規範，以此教育我們的民眾施行，我認為是先進國家的作法。"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛！人家日本都做得到，而且是落實到所有的公共運輸工具喔！這個已經行之有年，成為每個人的生活習慣了。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以大家彼此不要太自私，不要為了個人的方便而影響到他人作息的安寧。警政署應該要注意，因為這是由你們進行裁處，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：如果是鐵路上的這些狀況，應該是有鐵路法的規範。"],["邱委員志偉：鐵路？"],["張署長榮興：鐵路法。"],["邱委員志偉：但這是不具持續性或不易測量足以妨礙……"],["張署長榮興：如果是屬於在專法中沒有的噪音才適用於社會秩序維護法的規範。"],["邱委員志偉：鐵路法是交通部主管，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["邱委員志偉：交通部的看法如何？交通部？"],["胡副司長迪琦：報告委員，其實我們現在都有做一些宣導，像是鐵路的車廂或……"],["邱委員志偉：廣播都沒有用，你們應該要加強巡查，或者有沒有辦法入法，這是可以討論的。"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我不知道日本有沒有入法、有沒有相關的法律，但他們的國民就是遵守這個生活習慣，基本上是有公德心的。"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個要落實在教育、落實在許多的宣導，這點相當的重要。如果真的還是沒辦法改善，是不是有相關的法律可以裁處，你們可以去思考。"],["胡副司長迪琦：現在包括公路法或鐵路法等相關的規定，針對造成其他乘客影響的狀況是可以做一些法規上的處理。"],["邱委員志偉：我已經深受這個困擾十幾年，因為搭乘十幾年的高鐵了，搭乘高鐵已經成為我們日常生活的通勤習慣，針對這個部分，你們一定要去思考、面對。","我的質詢時間到了，現在我要示範什麼是非常優質的質詢，不是4＋10耶！主席，你也大概了解一下。"],["主席：好，謝謝最準時的邱志偉委員的質詢。"],["邱委員志偉：這是基本的。"],["主席：我也向大家報告一下，原則上，因為我們在今天下午本來就有法條的審查，所以我們希望每位委員都能清楚表達自己的立場。在清楚表達之後，如果真的有像剛剛那樣講不完的情況，我們當然就會適時地做一下處理。","下一位請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。丁學忠委員所提之書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與未及答復部分，請相關單位於1周內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},{"id":"160550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0c4ddf7513a98be6465a835c60a672e28ca7a32b531de3e8018d508fe8f4599eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:49:43 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劉部長有請抱歉抱歉 我以為你要請署長所以我就先下去 抱歉抱歉張委員好來 我來問你一個可能是這個世紀啊最大的烏龍 最大的藻民而且應該是要國賠保定4月2號 移民署啊寄了一萬多份的這個通知給這個陸配啊"},{"start":30.51,"end":39.563,"text":"結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女啊根本就沒有大陸的這個戶籍啊你們全部把它寄出去對不對"},{"start":43.68,"end":72.733,"text":"他們沒有來報告這件事嗎我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則"},{"start":74.533,"end":92.361,"text":"那事後移民署跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉"},{"start":102.105,"end":130.166,"text":"你慎重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,阿沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉"},{"start":131.047,"end":141.076,"text":"你再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛對不對日夜更嚴重啊,保證你這個從4月,我告訴你這個比較嚴重你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西,本來就沒東西嘛你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠"},{"start":153.148,"end":172.723,"text":"報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會"},{"start":173.964,"end":202.126,"text":"來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認"},{"start":203.607,"end":220.275,"text":"那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件"},{"start":229.76,"end":257.666,"text":"但是呢他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身份證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍呢跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身份證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色"},{"start":258.186,"end":266.891,"text":"也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生"},{"start":286.743,"end":314.191,"text":"這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成了困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委還有辦公室解釋嘛"},{"start":315.191,"end":335.614,"text":"他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好 例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸會主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸委會都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔"},{"start":336.234,"end":349.627,"text":"第二要求我是剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說欸張其凱你有你就要回大陸去"},{"start":357.902,"end":383.19,"text":"陸委主委也承認啊 他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話 或者到移民署 到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講 連找哪個地方的公安 你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是 雖然你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙 我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊 現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後 那你就回大陸去"},{"start":384.19,"end":406.432,"text":"就造成這樣一個擾民嘛,這是一個很大問題,所以我具體,我先跟你講一下這這個事情很嚴重,老實講,這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去,全台灣幾十萬陸配很多家裡面那個,兵荒馬亂,雞尾狗跳的那可能如果被你們註銷,或者要驅逐出境,那就變兩岸的人球,台中也沒有了嘛"},{"start":407.998,"end":437.305,"text":"多少家庭因為這樣子 最近這一個多月 將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化 多大一個擔心我列幾個個案來給你聽我大概搜到幾百件 裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的 不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥 一個年輕的 他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了"},{"start":438.682,"end":463.329,"text":"連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟"},{"start":465.066,"end":469.887,"text":"一共啊 你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦 工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內 還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的 網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣再繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配 下次又是哪個族群"},{"start":493.052,"end":497.575,"text":"到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了"},{"start":523.12,"end":535.992,"text":"你的一個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒 他說哈囉30年前欸 正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是一個台灣人啊"},{"start":547.248,"end":569.118,"text":"結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明,不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴,是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的啦我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案我們明確的規定"},{"start":571.121,"end":599.826,"text":"民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第一件在我剛才說的"},{"start":601.229,"end":619.152,"text":"陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有護金嗎好不好你不要常常跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你所以縣市之外你所以應該去一個函"},{"start":631.581,"end":644.537,"text":"你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函說我之前走不上去了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了"},{"start":649.666,"end":664.815,"text":"時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":667.504,"end":675.291,"text":"我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專情隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨"},{"start":685.4,"end":710.79,"text":"4月21號以後就有接種21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便"},{"start":711.69,"end":715.232,"text":"或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們"},{"start":728.837,"end":753.899,"text":"還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條"},{"start":755.84,"end":770.24,"text":"請求權時效的消滅的部分呢他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考"},{"start":772.182,"end":792.76,"text":"政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講這個也不公平是我想正我的責任我剛剛跟你講但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊"},{"start":794.242,"end":816.125,"text":"你現在賭職 你們在21年前就賭職了啊是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理 你應該用一個比較完整比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了 我們提了你們現在的六大排除 你說你們解決方案就六大排除嗎太窄化了 你現在解決了大概是打折打折打折 再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛 你就把他全部放寬"},{"start":817.406,"end":838.879,"text":"全部放寬不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範怎麼會不符合呢那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任我們提出修法我們非常負責任我就是在你執行之前的民國九十三年的三類一號之前的一定用拒絕的方式不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的那在這個時間點之後的範圍我們就授權由"},{"start":841.823,"end":863.448,"text":"入委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天入委會主委跟副主委有講"},{"start":863.968,"end":892.128,"text":"但是現在我們這邊申請案子非常多有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛講的是根本要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍"},{"start":893.115,"end":913.684,"text":"這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的"},{"start":916.425,"end":934.644,"text":"你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3例以後 全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的 我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除 再擴大一點好不好 不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法 已經會送到委員會去審查了"},{"start":935.866,"end":959.528,"text":"我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事物不要讓民眾來承受這種事不能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍現在沒有這樣的案例啊"},{"start":960.749,"end":988.54,"text":"你現在不是現在進行事嗎?現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情?所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎?我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們沒有法將單要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理?"},{"start":989.86,"end":1009.349,"text":"要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把他處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有是不是這樣我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":1011.941,"end":1015.202,"text":"我們後面還會有這個相關的業務報告的時間然後修法我們也都會尊重那請劉副長也我們都花點時間大家彼此討論OK好不好不好意思謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":919,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時49分）部長，不然你上台好了。"],["主席：好，劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉！抱歉！我以為你要請署長，所以我就先下去了，抱歉！抱歉！張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我來問一個可能是這個世紀最大的烏龍和擾民，而且應該是要國賠。部長，4月2日移民署寄了一萬多份的通知給陸配，結果搞了一個大烏龍，竟然有些子女根本就沒有大陸的戶籍，你們全部都把它寄出去，對不對？他們沒有跟你報告這件事情嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，應該是這樣講，我們叫「陸配」啦！陸配的子女是因為他跟我們臺灣人結婚之後，因為當時他沒有任何的身分證，他可能是1歲或是3歲以下，所以他就跟著媽媽或爸爸一起回來臺灣，所以我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候，就一併寄發了，我們是以這樣為原則，事後……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["劉部長世芳：事後移民署跟我報告之後，我們有請移民署要再跟當時並沒有任何中國身分證或是中國戶籍證明的這些人再說明清楚。可能我們說明的不是非常清楚，所以我在這邊要先跟當時並沒有任何中國身分證證件的這些年輕的臺灣國民說聲抱歉！"],["張委員啓楷：你鄭重的跟他們道歉嘛！對不對？第一個，我們先把這個大烏龍、大擾民弄清楚，部長今天也清楚的道歉了。這個事情為什麼會發生？就是這些年輕的小孩是跟陸配掛在一起的，之前移民署跟陸委會要寄出這個通知前，欸！你是要他補放棄大陸戶籍，但是他本來就沒有嘛！所以這是政府失職了。我進一步的問，那這要怎麼解決？除了你今天道歉，你應該要再補寄一個通知跟他們講，這是我們之前作業疏忽了，對不對？第二個更嚴重，部長，我跟你講，這個更嚴重。"],["劉部長世芳：請講。"],["張委員啓楷：你4月2日就寄了，到今天已經3個禮拜了，有些人可能已經回到大陸了，對不對？結果他拿不到放棄大陸戶籍這個東西，因為這個東西本來就沒有，是你無中生有，那這個要不要國賠？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我先跟委員說明一下，剛剛你提到的部分，雖然他當時並沒有中國大陸的身分證件，但是他是在中國大陸出生，這跟原生地在臺灣確實還是不太一樣，所以我們這一次是由陸委會來指導移民署，在處理有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面，有六項可以用具結來替代繳付除籍證明。就是在中國大陸出生，學齡前、也就是未滿7歲以前返臺定居主張從未在陸設籍經移民署確認者，也就是說，我們還是請他要把主張沒有在大陸設籍的證明讓移民署確認。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你先講完。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你先聽我說明。我要這樣提的原因是，可能委員跟大家都忘了一件事情，那就是前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人，他也是類似剛才委員所提的這個樣態，但是他的媽媽在沒有告知這位軍人的狀況下，幫他在中國大陸申請了身分證件，但是他自己跟國防部講，他不要中國大陸的身分證件，所以變成我們知道有這樣的狀態後，也開了一個委員會來確認他的主張。因為我們臺灣的戶籍和國籍跟中國大陸是互斥的，只能有一個，他希望維持擁有臺灣的身分證和戶籍，所以我們就請他用具結的方式，然後國防部仍然還是請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色。也就是說，因為有這樣的案例發生之後，才讓我們警覺到說，其實我們應該要全面性的清查這樣的狀態，但是這會發生一些困擾，就是你剛剛所說的，也許20年來他從來都沒有離開過臺灣，但是他的父親或母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件？我們也必須要他來跟我們確認清楚。處理清楚之後，大概就不會再有其他的滋擾事件發生。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個大烏龍跟大擾民最根本的是什麼？你剛剛已經道歉了嘛！你根本就不應該寄這個信給他們嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我是說對他們造成困擾，可是我剛才也舉例職業軍人這個案例了啊！因為有職業軍人這個案例，所以我們還是需要做這樣的處理，這樣才能全面的清查。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你剛才已經道歉了，要矯正這個大烏龍，第一個，你要寄出去之前就應該要先查清楚。"],["劉部長世芳：我們接受委員的批評。"],["張委員啓楷：陸委會的主委有來我的辦公室解釋，他說你們的手上都有資料，你們寄出去之前應該就知道了，例如：劉世芳有大陸的戶籍，所以你要放棄；但是張啓楷沒有，你怎麼可以寄給張啓楷？陸委會主委也承認啊！所以第一個，這是一個烏龍。","第二個，他明確的講，你們手上都有這個資料，移民署和陸委會都有嘛！對不對？你要先清查過啊！就是因為你沒有清查過嘛！所以我才會做第二個要求，第二個要求就是我剛才講的，你寄給人家，明明他沒有大陸的戶籍，你寄去已經是擾民了，如果他已經過去大陸了，花了機票錢卻沒有拿到，你要國賠，這是一個。","第二個更重要了，從現在開始，舉證的責任在你，不是你隨便寄一個通知說張啓楷有，所以我就要回大陸去申請，陸委會主委也承認啊！他說你們是有辦法查到的，只要一通電話或是到移民署、陸委會，我就可以清楚的知道我在大陸有沒有戶籍。他還跟我講，連找哪一個地方的公安，你們都可以幫忙，問題是這段時間你們都沒有做。"],["劉部長世芳：陸委會願意幫忙，我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：前一陣子要打電話到移民署都打不進去，打進去了移民署就說，那你就回大陸申請，造成擾民，這是一個很大的問題。我先具體的跟你講一下，這個事情很嚴重，老實說，這是人間悲劇，你不曉得你們那一萬多封的信寄出去後，全臺灣幾十萬的陸配，很多人的家裡都兵荒馬亂、雞飛狗跳，欸！如果身分被你們註銷或是驅逐出境，那就變成兩岸的人球，因為他在大陸也沒有戶籍，最近這1個月的時間，有多少家庭因為這個樣子而產生多大的變化或擔心，我唸幾個個案給你聽。","我大概收到幾百件，裡面有好幾件都是你們民進黨自己的支持者，你們挖的不是只有臺灣民主法治這個根，你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了。有一個年輕的青鳥留言，這個你在網路上都可以查得到。他說我從「大罷免剛開始就去連署了」，連二階段的連署他都參加了，連他都擔心那個門檻太高會不會無法通過，結果昨天他說他完全改變他的立場，因為「我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書」，他說「不是我們辦不到，可是當初我們來臺灣的時候是依法辦理，三、四十年前資料都給你們了，是你們政府沒有保存好，結果你現在要我們自己承擔，還要去大陸申辦」。他說：政府有沒有想到，先不要講回去申辦工作要請假，要請假欸！你還限制他要在3個月內。還有機票錢，這個全部都要人家自己負擔。他還講，如果有一個是反共的，網路上一查，他會不會就回不來了？所以他最後做了一個結論，他說：我們可以繼續這樣搞分化嗎？瘋狂起來不分敵我，今天分化中配，下次又是哪一個族群？到時候我還要跟你們一起大連署反共嗎？","另外一位年輕人怎麼說？他說：我媽媽已經嫁來臺灣三十幾年了，1990年初要來臺灣依親，還一定要到香港的中國大陸災胞救濟總會申請中國除籍證明。那個時候可能連海基會都沒有，他們的證件都給你了，結果你現在？都已經過了30年，你一個掛號信就說移民署沒有資料，要趕快補一個除籍證明，欸！拜託！他說：Hello，30年前欸！正本都被收走了，你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍，然後已經除籍了。他說：我媽媽拿臺灣的身分證、護照，繳健保費，繳稅繳了三十幾年，他現在就是一個臺灣人，結果今天政府隨便寄一只信過去，就要他們趕快提出證明，不然3個月後就會被趕出臺灣。","這裡面說的都是你們民進黨自己的支持者，都是青鳥，你這不是挖到自己的根嘛！來，部長，我們做一個最具體的，台灣民眾黨已經提出「兩岸人民關係條例」的修正草案，我們要明確的規定民國93年3月1日修法之前就已經來臺定居的，因為這個太久了。21年前，部長，包括你，我們2個人認識這麼久了，你要找出21年前的東西應該很難找得到，所以在這個時間點之前，全部都改成一律都是可以拒絕的，之後的，現在陸委會有提出六大類可以排除，對不對？如果是93年3月1日之後的範圍或是方法，你們可以自己訂，之前的全部都用拒絕的方式來解決。","第二個就是我剛才講的，陸委會主委跟副主委有來我的辦公室，他說你們都有資料啊！所以現在任何的陸配或是第二代只要到移民署，只要到陸委會去，你們要幫他查出到底在大陸有沒有戶籍，好不好？你不要讓他跑了一趟卻又辦不到。第三個是我剛剛講的補破網，部長，你說你已經道歉了，所以要如何補正？你除了宣示之外，是否應該要再次發函？因為你給人家一個函就造成了人家的困擾，是不是應該在一個禮拜內由移民署再次發函，說明之前寄的函文錯誤，你也已經道歉了，所以他們不用回大陸去，這是第三點。第四個，你要求他們3個月內要辦完，從你4月2日發出去到現在已經3個禮拜，時間太短了，要不要把這個時間延長為2年？另外也有人反映，移民署的電話常常都打不通，在提供一個懶人包告訴大家該怎麼辦的同時，能不能在1個月內於北中南舉辦大型的說明會，向民眾說清楚該怎麼辦？可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告張委員，我先從第五項開始回答，現在不是只有移民署，包括各地的國境警察或專勤隊都有開放，因此，從4月21日我們開始開放申請到目前為止，根據我的了解，在電話方面比較沒有這樣的抱怨。"],["張委員啓楷：4月21日以後就有解決了？"],["劉部長世芳：4月21日我們與陸委會已經同時將必須具結的6項樣態公布在網站上，包括你剛剛所提的，如果是年滿70歲或從104年1月1日起都未曾去過大陸，其實這樣的樣態就已經不需要再回去中國大陸辦理。因此，對於你所提的，無論是不方便或是不能夠，譬如政治的因素，像是文化界的富察先生，我們都已經將那個部分列進去了。現在我們要處理的是不願，至於不願的理由，我們也提出若是屬於低收入戶有購買機票的困難就可以告訴我們，另外就是屬於重大傷病，現在根本不方便走動，我們也都將這個部分列進去了。但是，即使我們做了這樣的宣告，還是要以他們來告知我們是屬於哪裡的不方便為原則。","同時你也提到，這個法律在二、三十年前就訂了，為什麼現在才執行？我們也了解這個部分，所以我們也去問過，在行政執行的部分就是按照行政程序法第一百三十一條，請求權時效消滅的部分，如果它的請求權是義務的話，不是請求權時效消滅，而是權利的消滅，針對這個部分，我們也查過憲法上相關解釋的規範。","以上幾點，提供給張委員參考。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這是政府在民國93年3月1日修法後實施的新辦法，第一個，時間真的是太久了。第二個，責任在你啊！你怠忽職守，現在又把全部的責任甩鍋給民眾負擔，老實講，這樣也不公平啊！"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想這是政府的責任，但是，如果現在沒有做就是我們瀆職啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你們在21年前就瀆職了啊！是不是？現在你卻甩鍋給民眾處理，是不是應該採取一個比較完整、比較能讓民眾解決問題的方法？你說你們現在的解決方案就是六大排除項目，太窄化了！你們現在解決的大概是打折、打折、打折、再打折，只解決了一小部分的人嘛！因此，你應該要全部放寬，不要僅窄化於這六大類的放寬項目。"],["劉部長世芳：這樣並不符合法律上的規範。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼會不符合呢？不然我們就修法啊！台灣民眾黨非常負責任，我們就提出修法。針對民國93年3月1日之前的，一律採用具結的方式，不是只有六大類，全部都用具結的方式，至於在這個時間點之後的範圍，我們就授權由陸委會及內政部訂定標準。但是剛才我也明確講過，民眾清楚的反映，你的六類排除範圍太窄、太小了，我們應該要照顧全部的民眾。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你可以去問一下，這兩天在移民署辦理的情況其實都還算是很順利。如果有任何的疑慮，我們都還是會充分的說明。"],["張委員啓楷：那天陸委會的主委及副主委也講了，現在我們這邊收到的陳情其實都還非常多啦！"],["劉部長世芳：但這是從星期一才開始辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：有任何疑難雜症進來，只要他們有任何的困擾，我們現在都把案子轉到移民署及陸委會，希望你們能將速度加快。"],["劉部長世芳：我們一定要幫忙解決，但是一定要符合兩岸人民關係條例。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛我講的是要根本解決的方案，第一個，不要再發生去了找不到人或電話打不通的事情，而且要幫忙解決問題，特別是陸委會主委給我的承諾，只要去了就可以馬上查出在大陸到底有沒有戶籍。這個在之前是一團亂啊！你們負有舉證的責任，而且你們具有公權力，應該查得到嘛！因此，這個要讓全國民眾知道，從今天開始只要去移民署、去陸委會就可以清楚知道自己在大陸到底有沒有戶籍，如果有戶籍的話，甚至是應該去哪個公安局辦理，這些都是陸委會主委承諾的事，我們明確地把它講清楚。","第二個要根本解決的問題，也就是我剛剛講的時間太久遠，21年前了！除了你允許的六大類具結對象，應該針對民國93年3月1日之前的全面允許具結，至於之後的就授權由你們將它訂定清楚，將這個六大類的排除再擴大一點，好不好？共同來解決問題，我們會提出修法也會送到委員會審查。部長，一起來努力！"],["劉部長世芳：我們來檢討改進。"],["張委員啓楷：因為這件事情的影響真的很大！"],["劉部長世芳：我們來檢討改進，但是基於法律的一致性，還是應該要一致執行比較好，不能有破口及天窗。"],["張委員啓楷：對，但是政府自己的失職及疏忽，不該讓民眾承受這樣的代價。"],["主席：好啦！委員……"],["張委員啓楷：那是一個家破人亡、甚至可能變成兩岸人球……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有造成家破人亡啊！"],["主席：委員，我們後面還會有……"],["張委員啓楷：如果你們取消了他們的戶籍……"],["劉部長世芳：現在沒有這樣的案例啊！"],["張委員啓楷：現在不是現在進行式嗎？現在有多少家庭擔心這件事情？"],["主席：委員，時間……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你可以明確宣示，不會取消任何人的戶籍、不會把人驅逐出去嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對不起，我們是依法辦事、我們是依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！剛才告訴你，人家有這個疑慮，你又說沒有！現在我要你保證，你又不能保證！所以這個問題是存在的，我們就應該要解決這個問題啊！"],["劉部長世芳：就像我們處理陸配的問題，如果在陸配中有人帶著特殊任務而來，你要不要處理？要不要處理？"],["張委員啓楷：你把現在要處理的事情處理好，如果有特殊案例就特殊處理嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，如果我們一律用具結的方式，反而是包庇及姑息。"],["張委員啓楷：你們把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的，是不是這樣？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我們已經講得非常清楚，其實我們非常尊重，但臺灣是一個有法律的地方，我們是按照法律行事。"],["張委員啓楷：現在很多陸配抗議的是什麼？你們把每個人都當作有問題在處理嘛！是不是這樣？要將心比心啊！"],["主席：不好意思，我要打斷兩位……"],["劉部長世芳：張委員，我們還是要依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：有任何問題，我們就來解決問題，謝謝。"],["主席：報告各位委員，我們後面還會有相關業務報告的時間，對於修法也都會予以尊重，請劉部長與我們多花一點時間，大家彼此互相討論，好不好？不好意思啊！謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","下一位請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},{"id":"160549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0b399f6dc967ce85e65a835c60a672e28ca7a32b531de3e80294d796a60933aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:39:50 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你的待遇以及你的家籍什麼時候方案可以出來"},{"start":230.027,"end":247.713,"text":"那這個部分我們行政局正在規劃當中那我們其實很早就注意到這個問題那我們會把這個方案規劃出來之後再來做預計什麼時候可以公佈那我想這個部分你很早就知道這個問題而且你們也努力在規劃對你看多久時間可以告訴我們你的方案我看行政局"},{"start":258.291,"end":274.83,"text":"那這個部分可能也要學到我們的其他其他其他其他部分就是如此請教因為這個大家都知道非常的需要啊尤其你是組組單位啊我想是不是在三個月裡面呢我們把這個"},{"start":275.931,"end":287.544,"text":"三個月內你提出研議我們刑警的這個加級的待遇這個跟他的薪資你要提出三個月接下來最後一個議題本席請教部長部長"},{"start":290.968,"end":300.633,"text":"我們在112年12月8號修正通過的殯葬管理條例我也感謝總統在我們第35條相關條文的修正總統先生是在112年的12月27號總統公佈"},{"start":307.897,"end":326.687,"text":"當時我很感謝我們朝野的委員大家努力的去研討而且很順利的出了委員會那也在12月27號的時候總統來做公佈那相關的配套執法修正草案還沒有完成公告所以他在新生的這個日期我們尊重行政部門"},{"start":327.648,"end":332.189,"text":"那我也歡喜的聽到你們預計內政部預計要在下個月下旬要開始來做相關條例的執法的修正的配套的新法的一個說明會那現在業者除了感恩之外最重要的這個開始的時間點"},{"start":346.914,"end":352.377,"text":"據聞是有說要7月1號要請業者開始來執行之但是我們接到陳請 朝野的委員都接到陳請也就是希望能夠延到9月1號不要在7月1號因為在你5月下中旬或者下旬開始做各地的一個說明會那說明之後或許已經落點"},{"start":371.067,"end":374.51,"text":"這個6月了那7月1號倉促要上路他們不管在他的契約以及他的這個電腦化的這個相關配套都必須業者希望要有一點時間那現在業者是希望他也全力的配合是希望能夠在9月1號正式上路所以我也將業者的這個心聲給部長來了解第一個"},{"start":397.011,"end":406.459,"text":"我希望我們的法好不容易朝野委員這麼努力而且詳實的討論也經過總統的公告那也謝謝內政部你們在這一段時間一直在研擬這個執法那終於在五月下旬開始要到各地去做說明因為本市認為這個業者他們在執行方面是必須希望要能夠落實到"},{"start":422.973,"end":432.739,"text":"所以這個時間的緩衝 本行認為是必要的那我也希望 第二個希望 在整個書名會當中也希望內政部也聆聽了業者的聲音再做一個整體性的一個整合那也就是希望我們要法治化讓業者也有所本 而且做的可以達到一個效能"},{"start":447.429,"end":454.678,"text":"所以建議在整個說明會之後凝聚大家的意見也希望將這個執行的時期是不是讓業者有一個緩衝跟設備以上建言 請教部長"},{"start":462.809,"end":484.648,"text":"我們來檢討委員都了解我們跟地方政府要開這個說明會分別在5月13、16、21嘛業者也有表達心聲但是我要跟委員報告我們從112年到現在已經超過一年四個月所以他們除非是真正碰到很大的困擾"},{"start":485.148,"end":491.991,"text":"其實我們是每次延三個月以後就會有人說再延三個月所以我們常常聽到這樣的聲音那我想說我們是不是把這三場的這個分區說明會再說明清楚包括我們的這個內政部處理的中理司他們在處理的過程當中會碰到什麼樣子的一個困擾那到時候再跟委員來做這個總結"},{"start":507.056,"end":509.718,"text":"謝謝部長的回答我們總是希望當時因為沒有院版這個法案我超感動的當時行政院內政部的代表來大家也一起好好的在研討所以這個法案當中有很多也就是朝野"},{"start":524.648,"end":530.93,"text":"以及行政院所提出的這個見解大家綜合出來所以可以說是一個非常成功的一個推動的法案那我們也希望推動完之後總統公告公布之後我們希望業者可以落實還有地方政府他們能夠有有充足的時間好好的來達到這個效能那我也希望就成都部長剛剛所說的"},{"start":548.757,"end":550.399,"text":"說明會之後你們會再去討論我們希望業者可以好好的來做時間上如果需要緩衝也希望得到政府部門的一個應許以上見言 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":880,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時39分）謝謝，請部長及署長。"],["主席：請部長及署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張署長榮興：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好，署長好。首先討論有關警政署不斷地強調掃蕩「黑槍毒詐」的決心跟成效，但是我們看光鮮亮麗績效的背後，是我們刑警弟兄長期人力短缺跟沉重的壓力，所以本席做了一個統計，全國偵查佐的預算員額是4,674人，現有、實際上的員額是4,025人，換句話說，實際上的預算缺額人數是649人，它的缺額率是13.89%，比起過去10年、當然，名額增加了3%，儘管2023年我們放寬了偵查佐的甄選資格，但是它的成效是有限的，刑警荒還是嚴重的惡化，所以在這樣的情況下，本席要請教部長跟署長，我們要如何改善刑警人力吃緊的困境？因為本席認為，如果刑警的專業沒有辦法順利的傳承下去，那動搖的會是我國非常重要的議題：治安的根基，請教部長跟署長？"],["劉部長世芳：請署長先回應好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員，目前刑事的缺額大概是這個狀況，未來刑事的缺額這個部分我們會從幾個面向來做改進，第一個，我們會簡化非必要的刑事業務。第二個，要解決目前這個缺口可能要用支援警力來因應刑警人力的缺口，儘速加補第一線的人力。第三個，對於報考警大各級班或是專為刑警開辦的警佐班第三類，這個名額我們會再做提升。","另外有2個面向應該也是滿重要的，就是工作上的獎勵，不管是工作的鼓勵或獎勵。再來就是對於他們的待遇，比如刑事加給的提升，這個我們正在研議當中，要鼓勵優秀的基層同仁多來報考刑事這個行列，做以上的報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長要不要補充？"],["劉部長世芳：我們署長講得非常清楚，原則上，我們希望能夠從簡化非必要的刑事勤務著手。再來就是增加新進的刑事同仁，如果需要警察大學或是考試院來協助的話，我們都願意一起來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請跨部會的加油！但是部長跟署長在這邊，如果以你目前所答復的這4項，第一項：業務上面；第二項：人不夠的部分，你要有警力來支援，這也會衍生第二個問題。第三個，你說要增加學校的名額，這個非常重要，這是長遠的規劃跟訓練。最後一項、也是很重要的一點，就是你的工作加給和待遇，這個你正在研議當中，那你什麼時候可以研議出來？你要確實的把你的方案拿出來，因為目前所缺的就是這麼多人，你的預算缺額就是有將近650位，在這樣的情況下，本席要請教，有關第四點你們的研議、待遇和加給，什麼時候方案可以出來？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分我們刑事局正在規劃當中，其實我們很早就有注意到這個問題，我們會等這個方案規劃出來之來，再來做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預計什麼時候可以公布？"],["張署長榮興：我想這個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你很早就知道這個問題，而且你們也很努力的在規劃。"],["張署長榮興：不止，大概是近期啦！因為這是近期滾動式的了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，多久的時間你可以告訴我們你的方案？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分可能也要協調其他的部會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，你告訴我一個時間點。對，本來就是如此。請教，因為大家都知道這個非常需要，尤其你是主責的單位。"],["張署長榮興：我想是不是可以在3個月內把這個方案提出來？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，3個月內你要提出刑警的薪資及加給待遇的研議。"],["張署長榮興：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來最後一個議題本席想要請教部長。部長，我們在112年12月8日修正通過殯葬管理條例，我也感謝總統先生在112年12月27日公布第三十五條相關條文的修正。我很感謝當時朝野的委員，因為大家都很努力的去研討，該法案也很順利的出了委員會，12月27日的時候也由總統公布了，但是相關的執法配套修正法案還沒有完成公告，所以新制生效的日期我們尊重行政部門。","我也很歡喜的聽到，內政部預計在下個月的下旬要開始召開相關執法條例修正配套新法的說明會。現在業者除了感恩之外，最重要的是這個開始的時間點，據聞是7月1日要開始請業者來執行之，但是我們接到陳情，朝野的委員都有接到陳情，也就是他們希望能夠延到9月1日，不要在7月1日，因為5月中旬或是下旬你們才要開始在各地召開說明會，說明之後就已經是6月了，7月1日要倉促的上路，這不管是在它的契約和電腦化的相關配套，業者都希望能夠有一點時間。現在業者是希望，他們會全力的配合，但是他們希望能夠9月1日再正式的上路，所以我也將業者的這個心聲說給部長瞭解。","第一個，我希望我們的法，因為這個法好不容易朝野的委員都努力且詳實的討論，也經過總統的公告，也謝謝內政部在這段時間一直在研擬相關的執法，終於，5月下旬要開始到各地去做說明，因為本席認為，希望這個業者在執行時能夠落實，所以緩衝期本席認為是必要的。","第二個，我也希望內政部在說明會中聆聽業者的聲音後，能夠做整體性的整合，也就是希望我們要法制化，讓業者能夠有所本，也可以達到相關的效能，所以我建議在說明會之後，凝聚大家的意見後，這個執行的期程和設備都能夠有緩衝期，以上建言請教部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來檢討，委員都瞭解嘛！我們分別要在5月13日、16日和21日要跟地方政府召開這個說明會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["劉部長世芳：業者也有表達心聲，但是我要跟委員報告，從112年到現在已經超過1年4個月，除非他們是真正碰到很大的困擾，其實我們每次延後3個月後，就會有人說要再延3個月，我們常常聽到這樣的聲音。我想，我們是不是等這3場分區說明會再說明清楚後，包括內政部處理的宗禮司在處理的過程中碰到什麼樣的困擾？到時候我們再跟委員做總結的報告好嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長的回答。因為當時沒有樣板，這個法案我超感動的，當時內政部的代表來時，大家也都有一起好好的在研討，所以這個法案朝野和行政院都有提出見解來綜合，所以這個可以說是一個很成功的法案，我們也希望推動之後，總統公布之後，業者可以落實，地方政府也能夠有充足的時間好好的來達到這個效能。我也希望就誠如剛剛部長所說的，說明會後你們會再去討論，我們希望業者可以好好的來做，如果時間上需要緩衝，也希望能夠得到政府部分的應許，以上建言，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","下一位請劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員不在。","丁學忠委員改提書面質詢。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"],["張委員啓楷：你要先坐著嗎？還是要……"],["主席：劉部長一向都非常認真。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},{"id":"160548","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160548","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc062cc4b27b3edbf6465a835c60a672e28ca7a32b531de3e800410b60c5f7a9dc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:30:33 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11:39:30","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T11:30:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T11:39:30+08:00","duration":537,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.23346875,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.03909375,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":2.5959687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":2.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":3.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.72221875,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.430343750000002,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.80471875,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.93721875,"end":88.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.91159375000001,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.71721875000003,"end":253.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.44284375,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.47159375,"end":261.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.88034375,"end":263.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.70284375,"end":266.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.28471875,"end":267.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.78659375,"end":272.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.98409375,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.37534375,"end":282.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.98159375,"end":300.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.76034375,"end":342.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.15034375000005,"end":345.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.37784375,"end":352.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.02659375,"end":355.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.27534375000005,"end":353.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.59971875,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.82284375,"end":370.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.58471875000004,"end":375.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.87471875,"end":382.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.16534375000003,"end":396.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.69471875000005,"end":452.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.28534375000004,"end":454.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.27659375,"end":463.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.92471875,"end":466.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.32096875,"end":480.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.63096875,"end":529.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.83409375,"end":532.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.23034375,"end":536.63909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":4.452,"text":"行政院開過跨部會的一個會議決定分散處理那回歸主管機關然而實務上主管機關的一個處理也不是萬靈丹那舉例來說文創法運轉條例所以已經針對演唱會體育活動的黃牛進行加重處罰"},{"start":27.046,"end":53.801,"text":"但文化部仍需轉交地方政府進行裁罰而地方政府普遍都反映人力資源有限行政流程繁瑣舉證不易以及導致整個成效低落大量的檢舉卻是成案較少那相較之下社會法可由警察直接處理程序簡便反映快速才是更有效嚇止黃牛的地道防線分散處理最終導致的是權責分散執行無力"},{"start":54.261,"end":69.186,"text":"那黃牛票依然橫行民怨不解所以今天我們才在這邊修這個社會法不是嗎那民眾在乎的是結果那問題沒有被解決喔買票還是買不到啊黃牛還是沒有被處理啊不是今天你們跟行政院開過幾次會"},{"start":71.207,"end":88.004,"text":"主管機關在整個執行上我們就看到心有餘而力不從心就應該要做得更好而不是隨便找藉口搪塞而內政部在這一次我們購買而意圖轉售盈利的相關票券的行為可能屬於未遂但是行政法"},{"start":89.005,"end":110.425,"text":"未規定處罰的未稅行為社會法亦無法處罰這樣子的未稅行為所以我們今天要討論的是意圖轉售圖利的一個行為而不是純粹的未稅行為而是像這樣子的一個情況我要在這邊特別講使用假帳號大量的搶購門票以將票券上架在這些網站上名門標價的一個價格顯示"},{"start":113.167,"end":134.055,"text":"並提供聯繫而準備交易的這個行為這類的行為就是社會秩序的危害具體表現的一個樣態不是只是內心想賣所以我今天提出社會法六四條的一個版本修改為非公自用意圖轉售盈利謀利購買票券上架陳列"},{"start":134.595,"end":163.904,"text":"贩售就应该加以处罚这是我们今天想要一起来探讨希望能够有警察执法人员的一个介入来作为一个更有效的一个执法但是内政部我们看PTT随着各类的票券回归到主管机关80年制定公布执行的社会法第六四条第二款已经完成历史任务并可退场但是黄牛的样态我们可以看到并非只有演唱会跟体育活动其他猪"},{"start":164.564,"end":185.592,"text":"諸多還有像是遊樂票券醫療袋掛號新興黃牛的這些樣態都已經進行了管理這就是之前報導有報過現行醫院或者是民醫這種熱門的門診黃牛在網路上開價卡位掛號轉手賣給有錢人導致真正有需要看病的人反而掛不到號"},{"start":186.292,"end":210.771,"text":"所以我想目前很少用到色違法我剛剛也應該有去詢問過內政部的同仁去年這些樣態用色違法去開罰的幾乎是沒有也是希望在這一次大家聚焦在演唱會運動票卷可是其他的新興黃牛產業是沒有專法可依的所以終究是要回到色違法去做一個處理那我們今天要如何讓色違法更好"},{"start":211.511,"end":228.191,"text":"這是民眾所期待的所以本席針對內政部說已完成歷史任務這個部分來希望社會法64條可以退場我感到不能夠認同那我希望這個部分這個狀況根本就沒有被處理到本席要再一次的提醒內政部長"},{"start":229.392,"end":251.73,"text":"黃牛的樣態真的隨時代代變遷已經逐漸的變成更多元難以察氣的模式社會法64條我個人認為是不能夠退場而且要給予更多的一個多元強化讓黃牛能夠無所遁形否則整個就是還是讓黃牛逍遙法外無法無天這以上是我所提的一個這個版本部長那您覺得呢我講了這麼多"},{"start":254.313,"end":277.433,"text":"剛剛委員所提的部分我不曉得退場是什麼意思我們是說不要修正啦那另外您剛所提到黃牛的樣態當然越來越多但是警察只有一個所以到底由誰來認定黃牛票然後要開罰多少然後他什麼叫做惡意的哄抬那當然是要有目的事業主管機關來幫忙做認定否則你現在所有的工作全部堆給警察的話其實警察沒有辦法百分之百"},{"start":278.073,"end":300.232,"text":"達到一般人去報案的一個結果所以我是說只有單獨去修社會秩序維護法以目前來講不符合分散立法的原則那我剛特別提到如果目的事業主管機關每一個機關都可以把他們對於黃牛的樣態或是他已經產業鏈的處理方式做源頭管理的話那我們在後端的查處一定是可以協助以上"},{"start":300.982,"end":316.116,"text":"我覺得就現在我剛剛所說的我們有去問過內政部那個警政署現在的社會法並沒辦法在去年沒有這樣子的一個去執行沒有去抓那可能是因為他們在這個現階段社會法的運用上是有困難的"},{"start":316.816,"end":342.037,"text":"那當然我能夠認同各個機關的責任也不能夠減少應該要加重但是現階段民眾的期許就是在任何的機關都有一定的責任幫忙協助把黃牛抑制到最低我們當然也希望警政署能夠幫忙但是我也要幫警政署講話的確是非常的繁重業務所以這邊我另外要提署長我從第一年就一直在講台中市的繁重加擠"},{"start":343.458,"end":369.879,"text":"請問一下有沒有下文啊那我們那已經有他說要做在加成的部分我們會做全班的做全國性的這個全部的考慮全國性的檢討那台中有沒有機會第二大城市的那未來我們會把它考量都是會納入考量的我要拜託我們已經是第二大城市台中的繁重佳績不應該去輸給其他的縣市啊再來我想詢問一下最後一個問題問一下我們內政部部長部長"},{"start":371.636,"end":375.237,"text":"您有瞭解過新加坡有一個制度叫做輔警嗎我知道有輔警但是可能沒有委員那麼清楚我不敢說我很清楚但我要跟您探討是一件事情各國都有這樣子的一個樣態其實在我們現階段也看到在警察相關的一些業務上我們看到文書作業也蠻繁重的"},{"start":396.824,"end":413.537,"text":"是不是能夠去聘請更多的文書人員來做支持而不是等待相關的這些警察畢業的同仁第二我們看到新加坡有所謂的輔警制度他們是透過這些相關的一些人才培訓去協助所謂的開罰單"},{"start":415.599,"end":441.52,"text":"交給專業的人士甚至他們的這些制度未來能不能去研議我想現場這個楊瓊英委員也帶我們去新加坡我們去了解這一個制度我不敢說它是最完美但我要講的是現在警察人員的確非常繁重包括剛剛有人在探討的我記得剛剛部長也在說有所謂的改裝噪音噪音管制的一個問題那個是所謂環境部的一個責任但是現階段"},{"start":442.461,"end":463.228,"text":"署長我們是不是今年又有新法所謂的噪音管制改裝噪音排氣管有一部分的認定是交給警察去處理排氣管他去所謂的認定是否源頭處理完以後我們倒交條例去把它沒有鐵牌認證的這些排氣管要加以開罰對吧"},{"start":464.048,"end":479.885,"text":"那這個部分應該是由主管機關來認定業務主管機關他們主要認定整個排氣管他們是否合格到後面執法的時候也是要麻煩警察所以我一再的認同警察的這些相關執行業務是非常繁重"},{"start":480.826,"end":497.82,"text":"那當然我們希望能夠幫忙協助員警能夠增加人力能夠增加福利這是我們最重要的所以我也希望輔警的這個制度在新加坡這個樣態有去執行未來我們是不是能夠來幫忙協助警察人員相關的一些人員進入進駐幫助他們"},{"start":500.642,"end":529.429,"text":"去減少他們的相關業務我們一增一減一起來協助但是我還是回歸到今天的社會法你們有說這個部分上是不需要再去修法甚至在這邊在我們看到的文書上面是有說已經完成歷史任務並可退場這不是我講的所以這部分上的用字遣職我是不能夠認同那我也非常感謝今天我們召委來排審這樣子的一個相關修正草案我們一定是一定支持那也希望所有的委員能夠一起支持謝謝"},{"start":531.203,"end":534.733,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷輝委員的質詢下一位我們請鄭振權委員鄭振權委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時30分）謝謝召委，有請部長及署長。"],["主席：請劉部長及張署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。行政院開過跨部會的會議決定分散處理，回歸主管機關，然而實務上主管機關的處理也不是萬靈丹；舉例來說，文創法及運產條例雖已經針對演唱會及體育活動的黃牛行為加重處罰，但文化部仍需轉交地方政府進行裁罰，而地方政府普遍都反映人力資源有限、行政流程繁瑣、舉證不易，導致整個處理成效低落，大量的檢舉但實際成案卻少。相較之下，社維法可由警察直接處理，程序簡便、反應快速，才是更有效遏止黃牛的第一道防線。分散處理最終導致的是權責分散、執行無力，黃牛票依然橫行、民怨不減，所以今天我們才在這邊修社維法，不是嗎？","民眾在乎的是結果，問題沒有被解決，買票還是買不到，黃牛還是沒有被處理，不是今天你們跟行政院開過幾次會，主管機關在整個執行上，我們看到心有餘而力不足，就應該要做得更好，而不是隨便找藉口搪塞。內政部提到購買而意圖轉售營利相關票券的行為，可能屬於未遂，但是行政罰未規定處罰未遂行為，社維法亦無法處罰這樣子未遂行為。但我們今天要討論的是意圖轉售營利的行為，而不是純粹的未遂行為，像這樣子的情況，使用假帳號大量的搶購門票，已將票券上架在這些網站上，明碼標價並提供聯繫而準備交易的行為，這類行為已構成社會秩序危害的具體表現樣態，不是只是內心想賣而已。所以我今天提出社維法第六十四條的版本，修改為非供自用、意圖轉售謀利，購買票券上架陳列販售就應該加以處罰，這是我們今天想要一起來探討，希望能夠由警察、執法人員的介入，以作為更有效的執法。","從內政部提供的意見中，隨著各類的票券回歸到主管機關處理，80年制定公布執行的社維法第六十四條第二款已經完成歷史任務並可退場，但是黃牛的樣態，並非只有演唱會跟體育活動，其他諸多的像遊樂票券、醫療代掛號這些新興的黃牛樣態都應該進行管理；之前有報導過，現在醫院或者是名醫，這種熱門的門診，黃牛在網路上開高價卡位掛號，再轉手賣給有錢人，導致真正有需要看病的人反而掛不到號。目前很少用到社維法，我剛剛有去詢問過內政部的同仁，去年這些樣態用社維法開罰的幾乎是沒有，也是希望在這一次大家聚焦在演唱會及運動票券，可是其他的新興黃牛產業是沒有專法可處罰的，所以終究要回到社維法去處理。我們今天要如何讓社維法更好？這是民眾所期待的，所以本席針對內政部表示已完成歷史任務的部分，希望社維法第六十四條可以退場，我感到不能夠認同，因為這個狀況根本就沒有被處理到。","本席要再一次的提醒內政部部長，黃牛的樣態隨時代在變遷，已經逐漸的變成更多元、更難以查緝的模式，我個人認為社維法第六十四條是不能退場，而且要給予更多元及強化，讓黃牛能夠無所遁形，否則還是會讓黃牛逍遙法外，無法無天。這以上是我所提的版本，部長覺得呢？我講了這麼多。"],["劉部長世芳：剛剛委員所提的部分，我不曉得退場是什麼意思？我們是說不要修正。另外，您剛提到黃牛的樣態，當然越來越多，但是警察只有一個，所以到底由誰來認定黃牛票？要開罰多少？什麼叫做惡意的哄抬？當然是由目的事業主管機關幫忙認定，否則現在所有的工作全部推給警察的話，其實警察沒有辦法百分之百達到一般人去報案的結果。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這我認同，警察勤務真的繁重。"],["劉部長世芳：所以只有單獨修社會秩序維護法，以目前來講不符合「分散立法」的原則。我剛特別提到，如果每一個目的事業主管機關都可以把他們對於黃牛的樣態，或是已經可以把產業鏈處理方式做源頭管理的話，我們在後端的查處，一定是可以協助。以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛我所提到的，我們有去問過內政部警政署，在去年沒辦法以現在的社維法執行抓捕，可能是因為在現階段社維法的運用上是有困難的，當然我能夠認同各個機關的責任也不能夠減少，應該要加重，但是現階段民眾的期許，是在任何的機關都有一定的責任，幫忙協助把黃牛抑制到最低，也希望警政署能夠幫忙，但是我也要幫警政署講話，業務的確是非常的繁重。另外，署長，我從第一年就一直有在提臺中市警務人員的繁重加給，請問有沒有下文？"],["張署長榮興：我們會作全國性的考量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：全國性的檢討，臺中有沒有機會？第二大城市了。"],["張署長榮興：再加成的部分，未來我們都會納入考量的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我要拜託，我們臺中已經是第二大城市，繁重加給不應該輸給其他的縣市。再來，最後一個問題，部長有了解過新加坡有一個制度叫做輔警嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我知道有輔警，但是可能沒有委員那麼清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我不敢說我很清楚，但我要跟您探討一件事情，其實各國都有這樣子的樣態，像現階段在警察相關的一些業務上，我們看到文書作業蠻繁重的，是不是能夠聘請更多的文書人員來協助？而不是等待相關的這些警察畢業的同仁。第二，我們看到新加坡有所謂的輔警制度，他們是透過相關人才的培訓，協助開罰單，再交給專業的人士，甚至他們的制度，未來我們能不能去研議？現場的楊瓊瓔委員曾帶我們去新加坡，到當地去了解這個制度，我不敢說它是最完美，但我要講的是，現在警察人員的勤務的確非常繁重，包括剛剛有人在探討的，剛剛部長也有提到的，改裝噪音及噪音管制的問題，這是環境部的責任；署長，我們今年是不是又有新法，有一部分噪音管制及改裝排氣管的噪音認定是交由警察處理的？"],["張署長榮興：那是道路交通管理處罰條例。"],["羅委員廷瑋：它有排氣管，認定是否源頭處理完以後，利用道交條例把沒有鐵牌認證的這些排氣管車輛加以開罰，對吧？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分應該是由業務主管機關來認定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：業務主管機關主要認定整個排氣管是否合格，到後面執法的時候，也是要麻煩警察，所以我一再的認同警察的這些相關執行業務是非常繁重，我們希望能夠幫忙協助員警、增加人力及增加福利，這是我們最重要的；所以我希望參考新加坡執行這些樣態的輔警制度，未來我們是不是能夠有相關的人員進駐幫忙及協助警察人員，以減少他們的業務，我們一增一減一起來協助。","還是回歸到今天社維法的修法，你們有提到這個部分是不需要再去修法，甚至在文書上有說明已經完成歷史任務並可退場，這不是我講的，這部分的用字遣詞我不能夠認同，也非常感謝今天我們召委排審社維法相關的修正草案，我們是一定支持，也希望所有的委員能夠一起支持，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},{"id":"160547","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160547","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0d8f4d1a3fe232d4765a835c60a672e28ca7a32b531de3e801053e709b707af575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:23:24 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謝謝委員的關心委員對於很多民眾涉及到社委法的部分其實也都非常的關心但是您剛有特別提到因為社委法在上一次修正到現在大概不到三年的時間這裡面如果我們發現說光是社會秩序維護法無法解決的問題行政院有指示所以我們已經採取叫分散立法"},{"start":166.337,"end":170.282,"text":"譬如說現在的這個文藝的黃牛的部分的話呢就是請這個文化部來處理那如果是運動採卷運動發展條例的話就處理有關賽事的這個黃牛的這個部分那譬如說噪音的話呢請噪音管制法"},{"start":182.236,"end":193.261,"text":"那所以警察的他的職權的部分呢就比較明確化也就是說我們在協助目的失業主管機關來化解這方面的問題然後不是說只要引用社會秩序違法就是為了開罰單 為了開罰金這個叫做我們一般來講"},{"start":198.843,"end":202.989,"text":"但是我們警察還是願意協助這個部分那您剛所提到就是說鄰里之間的這個糾紛啦其實我都知道像村里長也是很辛苦那是二十四點鐘過的工作在處理事情但是呢我們只是盡量化解"},{"start":214.284,"end":231.631,"text":"那如果真正升高到說需要由法律來解決的話大概還不至於先到法院大家都會先到警察局那到警察局的報案也是都包山包海那所以我們現在的這個社會秩序維護法那個警員用社會秩序維護法來開罰的次數呢就慢慢在降低"},{"start":232.071,"end":261.093,"text":"因為大家都是知道說法治社會有法律的地方啊大家互相要相擁好還是大家互相要遵守法律那所以如果現在呢如果要再把它加重刑責或者是加重他們的業務量的話我覺得這樣反而讓事情的回歸到越來越混亂但是呢我們可以處理的就是說現在已經分散立法的部分譬如說給環境部給文化部給這個體育部未來的體育部或者是甚至未來有交通部"},{"start":262.013,"end":265.316,"text":"的處理因為交通部他們現在處理是只有管大眾運輸的這個鐵路的票那個叫做運輸的票卷但是呢交通部也有處理像觀光旅宿的部分在這個部分也還沒有放到交通部應該處理的範圍"},{"start":277.785,"end":282.909,"text":"所以我們很希望說未來如果有機會啦我們還是會繼續跟行政院反映就是說讓目的事業主管機關的這個事業的這個部會他們能夠就不管是黃牛也好或是說消費糾紛的部分盡量採取這樣的方式那還有呢其實還有一個叫做消費者保護法那消費者保護法呢在地方機關地方政府也有譬如說地方的消保會之類的"},{"start":303.826,"end":307.35,"text":"但是很多人啊 很多人都覺得說最好現在先開館啦不要說明天再去市政府 再去管政府 再去兜圍 再去找所以最快的一定找里長 第二天就找警察里長就是用口供的 警察看他"},{"start":320.184,"end":345.013,"text":"那這樣子反而造成我們的警察他會一直要處理這個事像剛剛那個署長有跟那個委員報告過真的噪音管制法開罰的比例不是很高但是警員為了應付噪音的問題他可能要往返的那個次數可能是高於百倍跟千倍所以你現在如果再把他把這些噪音管制為了加強他的罰則"},{"start":346.434,"end":368.449,"text":"好像就能夠降低噪音的糾紛跟困擾我覺得反而是後端管理不是後端管理的問題是源頭的部分譬如說公寓大廈的管委會我們要不要制定大家一個比較好的相處之道你晚上十點以後你就不要再唱歌唱歌之類的但是偶爾拖個桌腳"},{"start":369.269,"end":393.117,"text":"沒辦法去攏到 那不要說真的要用噪音管制 那也發揮錯啦所以我是覺得說還是要大家再釐清清楚 看界限在哪個地方那如果是警察機關可以介入來幫忙的 我們一定幫忙但是我們不是主要的目的事業主管機關要這樣子的認定的話呢 我們比較能夠接受社會秩序文物法要做修正啦對 好 謝謝部長"},{"start":393.976,"end":410.382,"text":"因為我們這樣才會明確規定 不然很多民眾他們遇到事情 絕地都是靠電來找警察所以做成警力都已經不過了 已經又吃重所以這樣才可以說 像譴責單位都把它列分出來民眾讓他們了解 謝謝部長 感謝 辛苦好 謝謝吳京平委員的諮詢 下一位我們請羅廷偉委員諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":838,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時23分）謝謝。主席、與會同仁，請內政部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員你好。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長你好。今天我們所討論的社會秩序維護法，在警察裡面是非常龐大的負擔，因為社會秩序維護法涵蓋的範圍太廣，其實警察的勤務已經過重，未來包含糾纏、跟蹤、性騷擾等事件……"],["劉部長世芳：性騷擾。"],["吳委員琪銘：111年跟蹤騷擾防制法已經上路了，接獲民眾陳情有八千多件，符合告誡的有五千多件，平常已經加重警察的勤務負擔。","今天剛才在討論，包含黃牛票的問題，應該權責單位還是要歸類。像在新北市雙溪遇到挖眼睛的，震驚整個社會，尤其媒體那天在報導，我看了都傻眼，其實他是倒垃圾，垃圾又是屬於環保這個區塊，未來我們的社會秩序維護法要怎樣來歸類讓民眾了解，我們最主要是要讓民眾知道說這個部分，警察要怎麼跟他勸導，環保人員要怎樣做，因為那都是鄰居，要怎樣來跟他們做協調，才不會造成悲劇的發生，這是目前我們要討論的社會秩序維護法的重點，不要說什麼事都歸於警察單位，警察的勤務都非常繁重，所以在這個部分，請內政部部長要怎樣妥善來做規劃。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，委員對很多民眾涉及社維法的部分也都非常的關心。但是您剛特別提到，因為社維法在上一次修正到現在，大概不到三年的時間，在這裡面，我們發現光是社會秩序維護法無法解決的問題，行政院有指示，我們已經採取叫「分散立法」。","譬如說現在文藝的黃牛的話，請文化部來處理；如果是運動彩券，運動發展條例就處理有關賽事黃牛的部分；譬如說噪音的話，請噪音管制法。所以警察的職權就比較明確化，也就是說，我們在協助目的事業主管機關來化解這方面的問題，而不是只要引用社會秩序維護法，就是為了開罰單、開罰金，這個一般來說就是顧人怨，但是警察還是願意協助這個部分。","您剛所提到鄰里之間的糾紛，我知道像村里長也是很辛苦，24小時的公道伯在協助處理事情，但是我們只是儘量化解，如果真正升高到需要有法律來解決的話，大概還不至於到法院，大家都會先到警察局，警察局的報案也是包山包海，所以警員用社會秩序維護法來開罰的次數就慢慢降低，因為大家都知道法治社會有法律的地方，大家互相要禮讓，要遵守法律。現在如果要再加重刑責，或是加重他們的業務量，我覺得這樣反而讓事情越來越混亂，但是我們可以處理的就是現在已經分散立法的部分，譬如說給環境部、文化部、未來的體育部，或是未來有交通部來處理，因為交通部現在處理是只有管大眾運輸的票券，但是交通部也有處理像觀光、旅宿的部分，這個部分也還沒有放到交通部應該處理的範圍，所以我們很希望未來如果有機會，我們還是會繼續跟行政院反映，讓目的事業主管機關的部會，他們能夠就不管是黃牛也好，或是說消費糾紛的部分，儘量採取這樣的方式。","還有一個叫消費者保護法，消費者保護法在地方政府也有，譬如地方的消保會之類，但是很多人覺得最好現在先解決，不要明天還要去市政府、縣政府等等地方，所以最快一定找里長，第二就找警察，里長就是用勸的，警察看能不能開罰單，這樣反而造成警察一直要處理這個事。","剛剛署長有跟委員報告過，噪音管制法開罰的比例不是很高，但是警員為了要應付噪音的問題，他可能往返的次數可能高於百倍跟千倍，現在如果噪音管制為了加強罰則好像就能降低噪音的糾紛跟困擾，我覺得反而不是後端管理的問題，是源頭的部分。","譬如公寓大廈的管委會，我們要不要制定一個比較好的相處之道，晚上10點以後就不要再唱歌之類的，但是偶爾拖個桌腳，不小心撞到，不要真的用噪音管制法，那也罰不到，所以我覺得大家再釐清清楚，看界限在哪個地方。如果是警察機關可以介入來幫忙的，我們一定幫忙，但是我們不是主要的目的事業主管機關，要這樣認定，我們比較能接受社會秩序維護法要做修正。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝部長。所以要有明確的規定，不然很多民眾一遇到事情，絕對都是打電話找警察，造成我們的警力已經不足又吃重，這樣才能夠把權責單位都列分出來，讓民眾了解。謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員的質詢。","下一位請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},{"id":"160546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160546","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0ee4402de50a9320165a835c60a672e28ca7a32b531de3e80d2a91ba8bd4818235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:11:10 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譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下"},{"start":392.234,"end":395.5,"text":"那部長您就先請坐好了好好好你請說"},{"start":396.568,"end":425.376,"text":"跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義"},{"start":425.976,"end":441.702,"text":"因為有些人他比如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是是他勞務一般是會想共通"},{"start":442.262,"end":460.747,"text":"共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題"},{"start":461.867,"end":481.372,"text":"那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦它加價轉售的目的是在於它自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦"},{"start":483.137,"end":506.503,"text":"所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者"},{"start":507.663,"end":517.389,"text":"被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基金應該是有差別的所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見"},{"start":520.413,"end":549.168,"text":"是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不"},{"start":550.1,"end":578.83,"text":"不認可這樣嗎 但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係 那我大概了解你們的立場最後 請回座 最後部長我最後不好意思 我最後再請教一點不是這次修法 但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環"},{"start":579.95,"end":606.975,"text":"那像現在大罷免 不是大罷免 對不起現在預算 現在這個我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散布在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個 請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪 所以我什麼福利沒了 什麼福利沒這有沒有影響公共安寧"},{"start":608.471,"end":636.03,"text":"报告委员这个要看事实上如何认定对如果事实上谣言所说的那个项目没有被删除但是却有这样的谣言出来那这一块是警察还是谁要去执法如果是社会秩序维护法当然是由警察来出面来处理这一块所以呢所以我们听到这样谣言的要检举是吗对是不是检举然后警察就就"},{"start":637.065,"end":660.801,"text":"跟我們警政署檢舉是嗎不是啊我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊檢舉完了我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下"},{"start":662.546,"end":687.59,"text":"如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況"},{"start":690.751,"end":719.312,"text":"好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持重力好謝謝"},{"start":720.817,"end":722.599,"text":"好,謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時11分）謝謝主席，本席請劉部長還有警政署張署長。"],["主席：劉部長、張署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長還有署長，首先本席想請教一個問題，這個禮拜六426凱道有活動，兩位知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：知道。"],["張署長榮興：知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在得到消息，會有人反串，自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群，可能會引起一些衝突，請問這個部分，部長是不是會要求警政署好好的來取締這個情況？"],["張署長榮興：我們對於各種狀況，我們都會掌握來做處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知，我們絕對沒有，只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的，絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果警方看到五星旗、共黨旗，我不知道長怎麼樣，你們會不會取締、會不會協助？"],["張署長榮興：4月26日已申請合法的集會，我們一定會維護集會過程當中的和平、順利，如果牽涉到其他，會去做干擾、干預不相關的，我們會配合主辦單位來做排除。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，署長先回座。接著本席要就今天社會秩序維護法來請教部長，這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部，但是這次修法新增的有些部分，好像跟文化部、體育部，當然體育部還沒成立，還有可能跟行政院、消保處都很有關。"],["劉部長世芳：環境部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，還有衛福部，跟衛福部有關。所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提醫療票券的部分，我看到衛福部的回應，等於是可以免列，意思就是所謂的醫療票券，我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾，他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便，請人代為，不管掛號或是排隊，請人代為掛號排隊，所以提供一些勞務費，這個部長是否認同？"],["劉部長世芳：我想它的定義還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較好，因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事系統。"],["徐委員欣瑩：衛福部已經說，如果是所謂的醫療票券，他們的意見，我看到他們的報告是說免列。"],["劉部長世芳：但是這個還沒有做最後的確認。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，還沒討論嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：因為委員的說法……不是您，有的人覺得是，有的人覺得不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個還要討論，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：就是你講的，一般代掛號是為了譬如說行動不方便的長者，另外一方面，有的人說在網路上面已經有包山包海要包掛號，從臺大醫院到小診所都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有一些醫療的，其他的。"],["劉部長世芳：那就表示他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬，或者是用高報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事，譬如說我們的掛號費只要100，但是他跟你收1,000，那這樣對不對？這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化，還需要法律上比較多的討論……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以這一個應該是我們進入逐條的時候，還要做討論，然後釐清的意思嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我還是一樣，因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情，在行政院4次開會裡面都有提到，要採取分散立法，也就是目的事業主管機關盡量分散，如果說是掛號黃牛，如果有這個名詞的話，那是否由衛福部他們來議定比較好的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您表達意見是，因為要分散到目的……"],["劉部長世芳：分散立法，或者叫分流立法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：分流立法到目的事業主管機關。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來配合。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就不希望納在內政部管轄的社會秩序維護法裡面？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想我們是一起合作的，就是各個部會一起合作，因為警察人員有警察權，就警察權可以協助的立場，一定會來協助，但是這一張黃牛票的認定、要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定的，不是由我們來認定的，是目的事業主管機關，或者他違反環境噪音的話，是要由目的事業主管機關來認定，可能會比較好，所以這樣子的競合，我們需要仔細來討論，我想很多委員都贊成。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["劉部長世芳：但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法法，就一條條文要解決一個部會裡面要處理的事情，會有困擾。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，部長請留步，同步請消保處的代表，今天有嗎？"],["主席：消保處有請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有，今天好像是文化部。"],["主席：文化部副司長有請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，謝謝。包含教育部，不好意思。"],["主席：教育部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後我想請教，因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票，我只是提到醫療，部長就提到黃牛票，現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會，這個在過去可能他賣假設好一點的位置，5,000塊，黃牛票如果哄抬到8,000甚至1萬的，我們就認定是黃牛票嘛，對不對？但是現在因為社會變遷，我們在飲食上已經有所謂的代買代排，現在不是只有像Uber，其實我們現在有一種，就是他取代了整合了傳統的代為排隊，就在飲食方面也有，包括買這些票券，所以以前的黃牛票，我們就稱黃牛票，現在如果我請他幫我代排代買，這個部分怎麼認定？比如說，好，他賣我8,000，假設這一個演唱會的歌星，我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱，他的票券本來5,000塊的，幫我代排代買的說我要給他3,000勞務費，願者上鉤，如果我也願意的話，這樣還會是黃牛票嗎？這個部分可不可以回答一下？"],["陳副處長星宏：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長先請坐，您請說。"],["陳副處長星宏：跟委員報告，這個在行政院討論的時候，把黃牛票的定義為一個加價轉售，就是從……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我把那個加價看成是勞務，就沒關係？"],["陳副處長星宏：如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出，我想那一般是社會上通常的合理情形，但如果是超過一般社會上合理認定的勞務給付的話，那是一個所謂的加價轉售，謀取不當利益的話……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這是不是要定義？因為有些人比如說原價5,000，但是他真的覺得1萬他也願意，所以勞務要跟我收同樣5,000，那這個你要認定是黃牛，還是他勞務……"],["陳副處長星宏：不過這還是有一般社會上共通認定的勞務給付的費用，我想這個在所有的各行各業中應該都有一定給付的標準……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有嗎？現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會，也有一個認定標準了嗎？"],["陳副處長星宏：如果是個人親自去網路上購票或是現場購票的話，那就沒有所謂勞務的問題，委託他人的話，也許會有所謂的跑路或者一些服務的費用，但這種服務費用如果已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話，那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦！那就是一個加價的轉售啦！他加價轉售目的是在於他自己個人的圖利，而不是跑路費用，即勞務上付出的對價。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是這樣認定？"],["陳副處長星宏：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦？他還是有罪？對方還是有罪？"],["陳副處長星宏：假定買的人甘願的話，可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以就沒有這個問題嘛？"],["陳副處長星宏：我們不能說沒有這個問題，而是絕大部分的黃牛票就是因為這種加價轉售，然後讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來，那是一個被迫性質，跟所謂的勞務性給付應該是有差別的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以我想其他應該也是一樣的意見，是不是？"],["顏副司長容欣：跟委員報告，一般說的代購，很可能只是以代購的名義包裝加價的非法事實，所以這可能都是要依據事實去認定。基本上，我們從法來看，超過票價金額販售的話，在法裡面就是黃牛的行為，大部分說代購，其實都只是用代購在做違法行為的包裝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們不認可這樣嗎？但實際生活上可能需要，沒關係，我大概了解你們的立場，請回座。","部長，我最後再請教一點，不是這次修法，但也是社會秩序維護法第六十三條有提到，如果散布謠言足以影響公共安寧者，要處3日以下的拘留或新臺幣3萬以下罰鍰。像現在總預算，從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷充斥散布在社會上，甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的，像這個請問您合不合乎社會秩序維護法？因為民眾常常恐慌，說什麼錢被刪，所以我什麼福利沒了，這有沒有影響公共安寧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個要看事實如何認定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，如果事實上謠言說的那個項目沒有被刪除，但是卻有這樣的謠言出來，這一塊是警察還是誰要執法？"],["劉部長世芳：如果是社會秩序維護法，當然是由警察來出面處理這一塊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們聽到這樣謠言……"],["劉部長世芳：要檢舉，是嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，是不是檢舉，然後警察就……"],["劉部長世芳：跟我們警政署檢舉，是嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我問你，這一塊現在就很多……"],["劉部長世芳：您剛所引用的這個條文，裡面寫的是這個部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在那麼多謠言，應該怎麼處理？"],["劉部長世芳：檢舉完，我們還要做事實的認定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：事實的認定，所以現在要有人跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言，是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：程序上，我請警政署來回應一下。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，如果有這個狀況的話，提出檢舉，我們會來做調查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：向誰提出檢舉？"],["張署長榮興：向110或是到警察機關檢舉都可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你前面講的是？"],["張署長榮興：報案的110。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔！110。"],["張署長榮興：或是跟警察機關來做檢舉，如果是屬於社秩法，我們會受理，然後再依照事實調查，依照事實的證據是不是屬於謠言的狀況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後我想請部長，還有署長。社會有很多的考驗，我們希望中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠，希望能公正，好嗎？該維護的要維護，違法的不分藍綠都該處理，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：沒問題，一定是依法行政。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，依法行政。"],["張署長榮興：我們會保持中立。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","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謝謝 署長今天還要講這個社會秩序維護法那社會秩序維護法其實我難得跟這個牛許廷為員難得跟召集人有一個共同的共識難得 真的"},{"start":206.547,"end":214.834,"text":"針對這個運動票券跟藝文票券還有跟稍法已經有其他的相關的法令已經有規定的我覺得這個可以另外再討論"},{"start":216.428,"end":244.92,"text":"但是針對這個噪音事件其實身處都會區大樓區其實我們說警察同仁最難處理的事情其實也是大樓之間的吵雜樓上樓下這個問題那我再強調一次前年在高雄有一個無姓男子跑去殺了樓上的鄰居的一對父母年輕的父母那這一個無姓男子他被判死刑"},{"start":245.976,"end":274.042,"text":"是在這個憲法判決後是被判死刑是一致死刑所以一直有人在說台灣這個憲法法庭宣告死刑無效這個是假的他這是一個死刑的案例但是這一個裡面警方有沒有更大的空間來處理這個事情當然之前有沒有報案這個我不知道警政署這邊有沒有去調查或是市政府警察局有沒有相關的這些紀錄所以說"},{"start":276.516,"end":300.885,"text":"如果這個案例如果警方可以去因為這個公寓大廈管理條例之外那有這種大樓公寓大廈的這些噪音的爭執的時候那警方可以有更大的權力或者是警方可以及時的來制止這一些問題的話我想這個我會比較傾向說讓警方有更大的空間可以來處理這個事情"},{"start":301.479,"end":330.077,"text":"因為在都會局有非常多的這些大樓裡面的糾紛其實是從這裡造成的那警方去也不是說現行法當然就是可以罰六千但是事後當然有很多的這些包含他身負的管道包含這些會造成很多的這些行政程序的繁瑣等等的這個我都理解但是讓警方出面的時候對於這件事情馬上可以解決或者是有更大的約束力我覺得這可以討論 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嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法"},{"start":220.292,"end":235.321,"text":"我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分因為過去有講我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃流票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是什麼郵輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有"},{"start":241.069,"end":262.738,"text":"因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票券體育票券樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嘛交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員班沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝"},{"start":271.055,"end":299.466,"text":"好 部長其實就是這樣本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公立大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛"},{"start":300.186,"end":327.523,"text":"特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊"},{"start":328.864,"end":342.508,"text":"因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據但是受違法72條3款請問啦 比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數 承案的次數 相關的數據警政組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在不過這個很少因為因為他這個"},{"start":345.35,"end":361.66,"text":"我們去大部分都會勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要件是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們"},{"start":365.134,"end":377.503,"text":"裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有 應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來 我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次"},{"start":383.432,"end":408.574,"text":"應該是算蠻多 應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居當然是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制"},{"start":409.235,"end":426.27,"text":"不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等"},{"start":427.782,"end":446.56,"text":"就沒有 夜間沒有保全那國安會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這個公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好 警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式"},{"start":447.352,"end":456.489,"text":"那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報警來做一個處理"},{"start":458.783,"end":485.166,"text":"還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表"},{"start":485.586,"end":503.532,"text":"哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊"},{"start":504.432,"end":523.409,"text":"如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎"},{"start":524.946,"end":554.027,"text":"警政署辛苦了 但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題 也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好 希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制啦但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要跟我們的我要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛"},{"start":555.047,"end":578.582,"text":"不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像剛我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多"},{"start":579.162,"end":593.945,"text":"可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合併的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求"},{"start":594.085,"end":613.098,"text":"沒關係這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數還有你的出行次數中間的落差還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好那就感謝部長跟署長的說明謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時54分）謝謝主席。劉部長，有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的修正條文，不外乎就是要針對這些疑難雜症做出調整。本席看大部分的法條都是增加罰責，當然，在剛剛討論的過程中，有很多人提到法規競合的問題，比如說藝文票券、體育票券現在有專法，當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提，大家的初衷都是希望打擊黃牛，所以從各個角度去提案，在這段過程中，體育的相關條例過關了，藝文的相關條例也過關了，那麼社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去？我覺得有討論的空間，大家可以思考一下，會不會有法規打架的問題？如果會，條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整？","剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容其實也有提到，其實社會秩序維護法就是補破網嘛！以前大家基本上都是交給這個法條來處理，但是隨著有越來越多的專法可以處理，比如說剛剛蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對？跟騷法出來之後，也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛！它還是有處理其他剩下來的樣態，類似像補破網的相關功能。所以部長剛剛也不反對，因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說，即便跟騷法上路之後，社維法還是有檢舉、還是有裁罰，所以表示這個法還是有功能的啦！所以不管今天討論噪音、討論黃牛票、討論跟騷，社會秩序維護法都還是有補破網的功能！在這樣子的一個大框架之下，大家針對法條的內容跟罰責來做討論跟補強，怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢？所以剛剛有些委員說自己搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義，或者是今天大家討論這個要幹嘛，我認為不是這麼簡單的！這個立場非常清楚，必須來表達一下。部長，你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你這樣問，我怎麼敢回答「沒有意義」呢？"],["牛委員煦庭：哈哈哈！"],["劉部長世芳：我的意思是說，我們在處理社會秩序維護法的時候，像剛剛我們署長所說，因為包山包海……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦，包山包海。"],["劉部長世芳：所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的討論圈……"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：只是說要把它收攏，變成每個條文的討論案或者每個條文的文字敘述的話，確實有困擾，因為不能單純由內政部來處理，你看，包含今天有四、五個部會一起來，所以沒有辦法這樣處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，所以我今天找很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛！因為我們每個部會、每個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的，我們可以專法優先，哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來發揮補破網的功能，我們就來處理。舉例而言，交通部的代表，有請。交通部今天有人來嘛！謝謝。"],["胡副司長迪琦：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你好。剛剛有委員講，所有黃牛票的樣態都要立專法來處理，比如說我在旅展買一個原本價值1萬5,000元的住宿旅遊套票，因為我在旅展買的時候打對折，只要7,500元，我買好幾張，然後在網路上賣1張1萬元，這算不算黃牛票？"],["胡副司長迪琦：嗯……"],["牛委員煦庭：好像算，對不對？因為取得的價格跟賣出的價格相比，我有圖利，那就是黃牛票嘛！對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：比如說豪華郵輪的船票，同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票？低價買、高價賣，就算嘛！"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你們交通部要不要立專法？"],["胡副司長迪琦：我說明一下，現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分，因為過去……"],["牛委員煦庭：我看到你們的報告有講，鐵路法對鐵路票券的黃牛票已經有規範了，對不對？那我剛剛講的，旅宿的餐券或郵輪的船票有沒有專法？"],["胡副司長迪琦：目前……"],["牛委員煦庭：目前沒有，對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：以後會不會有？因為剛剛有委員說你們每個部會都要去立專法，這樣是可以的嗎？技術上當然可行，但如果每件事都要這樣搞，其實各個部會都會累死嘛！所以我才講今天討論修法當然有意義啊！因為有些東西樣態嚴重，比如說藝文票券、體育票券，樣態嚴重，就用專法處理；樣態不嚴重但廣泛、情節輕微者，就用社維法處理嘛！交通部同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["胡副司長迪琦：我尊重委員會處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：「尊重大院委員」？沒錯，你書面報告也是這樣寫的，好，謝謝。","部長，其實就是這樣啦！本席希望，今天排這個案子，經過詢答的程序之後，大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中，去把文字做合適的處理跟調整，法規競合的部分要給它避免掉，補破網的功能要給它保留，其實就是這樣！","本席現在要花一點點時間特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊，因為本席一直非常關心公寓大廈管理條例跟相關的這些功能。以實務上來講，現在噪音管制法第六條，你看這一樣嘛，特殊的噪音樣態才會規範在噪音管制法裡面，但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的，就必須歸給這個大鍋飯──這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理。所以社會秩序維護法第七十二條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的，就是針對「製造噪音或深夜喧嘩，妨害公眾安寧」的部分。我想請問內政部警政署，你們可不可以提供一下相關的資訊？因為剛剛跟騷的部分有明確的數據，請問過去一年，你們根據社維法第七十二條第三款，開了多少張罰單？引用次數、成案件數是多少？相關數據警政署這邊有資料嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我目前手頭沒資料，不過這個很少，我們去大部分都是勸導，因為沒有這個儀器，沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音、到達什麼程度，所以這個的構成要件沒辦法像噪音管制法有儀器量測的狀況，因此這部分的績效、構成社秩法的裁罰應該很少。"],["牛委員煦庭：以你目前了解，你們裁罰的數字很少？"],["張署長榮興：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你會後來準備。"],["張署長榮興：沒有，應該沒有，因為我外勤幹很久，員警到達現場都是勸導而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在問第二個問題，你們針對員警有沒有統計，為了處理這種疑難雜症、妨害公眾安寧的噪音，你們出勤了幾次？"],["張署長榮興：應該是算滿多。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該很多次，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：非常多！"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間，我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態，叫做公寓大廈，以前沒有管委會那種，鄰居大家住透天或其他的當然就是報警處理，妨害公眾安寧就是報警處理，你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序維護法來做處理；不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定，當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔，就是管委會應該要內部先有一套處理機制。不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會請命，比如說深夜發生噪音的時候，按照現行的規定要先通報管委會，那有保全的、比較豪華的、服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理，大部分為了省管理費因此夜間沒有保全，那管委會半夜2點、3點還要幫忙處理噪音問題，間接導致公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事、沒有人要做的一個狀況。請問針對公寓大廈的這種噪音處置樣態，你們有沒有去思考過，內政部也好、警政署也好，有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡方式？"],["張署長榮興：現在依公寓大廈管理條例如果有成立管委會，當然由管委會來做處理；如果沒有的部分，目前還是適用社秩法，報警處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望藉這次的質詢來做討論，因為以現行的公寓大廈管理條例要先通報管委會，管委會不行還要去通報建管機關，我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了。一個噪音案件處理的流程非常繁雜、蒐證也不容易，最後就會導致剛剛署長講的，其實這個法有規定，但是實際上執行的狀況很少，因此我希望有一套更明確的標準。","我以桃園市為例，比如說簡報上是它的分工表，哪一些用公寓大廈管理條例、哪一些用噪音管制法，它就有明確的說法；再來，它也有噪音認定表，地方政府、各地的實踐有這樣子的方式。不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣，因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間，但是針對大廈管理的噪音問題如何來做認定，如何能夠讓噪音管制法、公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用，我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確、好執行的認定方案，尤其是可以照顧到公寓大廈相關的這些管委會或者是解決社區的疑難雜症，這樣可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：應該可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：警政署辛苦了，但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下，我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的，但我覺得這是一個很重要的問題，也是一個民生的問題，好不好？希望部裡面做一下研擬，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：您提到有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分，我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制，關於委員的很多說法我都贊成，可是有一點我還是要幫我們的警員講一下話，第一個，警員到現場去幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：不管他是噪音、吵架還是丟東西，不是因為你們吵架，所以我用噪音管制法來管理，如果給警員很多這種自由裁量的心證空間的時候，就如同剛剛我回應其他委員的說法，後續會有很多訴願跟行政訴訟，那這樣子會沒完沒了，我們社會秩序維護法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子，所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多！"],["牛委員煦庭：很多。"],["劉部長世芳：可能是100件裡面只有1件，甚至到1,000件以上……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我才講這個要提供相關的資料。"],["劉部長世芳：所以這要衡平的處理，不要馬上就把它放到法條裡面去，這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾，因為有法而不行的話，不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要件。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，這就是為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因，包含法的使用次數、你的出勤次數，這中間的落差還有問題衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制，這是本席今天質詢的重點。但法條內容在待會我們討論的時候，大家再各自表示意見，看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案。","感謝部長跟署長的說明，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，也謝謝部長、署長。","接下來，我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},{"id":"160543","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160543","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc065135306503dd59e16f08763592c0c24ca7a32b531de3e801614a9641f3446d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:04:04 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TOP團隊，目前補助90團，1.5億。甚至到第一級，就是有所謂的臺灣品牌團隊，過去是補助1.2億，然後來到了6團。但是我要說，在我這個紅色框出來傑出團隊其實才是人數最多，並且是最靠近一般人可以看得見的藝術表演。可是因為預算的關係，在之前我們收到了陳情。","表演藝術聯盟的朋友告訴我們，他們認真去盤點了現在在22個縣市所遇到的困境。我用紅色框起來有12個縣市說他們有些名單已經確定，但是沒有辦法告知補助的金額，其實就是因為之前預算凍結的問題。這個錢基本上應該是中央跟地方各自有所分攤。我們來看一下他們現在面對最大的問題是什麼。","這些團隊過往每一年都是在前一年的12月到新一年的2月份會開始申請場地、申請補助經費、寫計畫書。等到通過之後，3到6月開始表演、開始排練，然後下半年會有演出的高峰。所以這麼多地方團隊在地方演出，它完全仰賴地方政府跟文化部的補助。可是因為今年預算的問題，現在看到的是到目前為止最新的狀況，有這麼多縣市都沒有辦法公告補助金額。我們來看看它會造成什麼樣的影響。","次長，我想跟你分享新竹縣的團隊巴雀藝術、艸雨田舞蹈劇場，還有彰化的光興閣劇場現在都是TAIWAN TOP，但是過去他們就是所謂的地方傑出團隊。也就是說，文化部的補助確實累積了非常多好的表演藝術團隊，讓他們更往世界走過去，讓更多臺灣人認識它。但是到目前為止，我們現在真的不知道該怎麼辦。","我們幫忙整理了預算，我們看起來的狀況應該是這樣。如果我有說錯，再請次長告訴我。目前臺灣品牌團隊跟TAIWAN TOP這些團隊3月7號已經核定補助，可是在地方傑出團隊，我要先說有120團，但只占兩千多萬，到目前為止尚未核定。我知道這不是文化部的問題。在之前預算凍結跟刪除的亂象當中，我相信文化部也不樂見，但我想我還是要提出，為這些將近120團的地方傑出團隊向文化部請命。我想要請次長簡單回應一下，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員的關心。我們也知道這些地方傑團應該非常焦慮，我們現在第一個就是爭取解凍，解凍至少可以先解決燃眉之急，就是今年的部分。不過我還是要說，因為明年有財劃法，財劃法之後的地方傑團也有可能會回到地方政府。這件事情我們其實還在評估當中，也要跟委員做報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我認同你的說法。因為確實財劃法一旦開始落實之後，到底會在地方政府跟中央政府的分工跟財源，還有事責的分工出現什麼樣的狀況，我相信都還要再討論。但我還是要持續幫這些所謂地方傑出團隊爭取他們該有的預算，而且我剛剛說他們人數最多，拿的錢最少，但臺灣一般人最可以受惠。後續這個部分我們會再來積極追蹤，也很希望文化部或者是各地方政府都可以給我們更正向的回應，協助這些地方傑出團隊可以繼續做他們在意的事情，好不好？"],["王次長時思：希望至少今年先解凍。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，至少先解凍。我當然支持啊！我支持！我支持！我講3遍。我支持！好不好？謝謝主席，謝謝次長。相關的工作規劃麻煩一個月內給我們相關報告，好不好？謝謝。"],["王次長時思：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}},{"id":"160542","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160542","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0791dfbd23013b2414d63fb5309bb2e63ca7a32b531de3e80c30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:57:41 - 12:08:57","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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上面可能署長也要設法如何能夠讓他在這個人力的服務部分可以有效的提升那我們可以看到其實針對於"},{"start":87.886,"end":109.61,"text":"免費成人健康檢查本來是40歲現在又降成30歲所以那個這個服務的人數理論上應該會更多我們看到六個部會區它的篩檢利用率差不多都是只有在兩成多三成左右相較於偏鄉還是說比較屬於農業縣好像也沒有比較好"},{"start":114.032,"end":134.89,"text":"這個我們也理解啦因為在都會區其實可能醫療服務的這些方便性大家就想說我就不用做了不用再來做這個所謂的成人服務的健康檢查這個是可以理解的那三層跟國外跟國際相比是不是比較差其實好像也沒有差到那麼多雖然大家對三層是覺得這樣可以再減價沒辦法"},{"start":136.852,"end":159.735,"text":"不過我們可以理解這三個這些篩檢服務裡面包括今天的重點兒童發展篩檢服務這個有辦法做回來用比如說如果他還做成人健康檢查把孫子拿出來或是把孩子拿出來那他同時又符合癌症篩檢還可以做回作用嗎這個部分不知道目前有沒有相關的一些"},{"start":161.356,"end":190.596,"text":"規劃啦或者是在處理上有什麼困境之類的可不可以請署長先做一個我想謝謝委員的關心我們在篩檢其實最重要的就是說能夠讓這個民眾最方便的方式而且可進行的方式所以怎麼樣提供這樣的方式那是非常重要第二個就是篩檢人員他必須要受過這樣的一個訓練因為這是一個新的篩檢工具那麼他也是資訊化在處理那當然他的"},{"start":192.037,"end":209.638,"text":"篩檢的時間會比較長一點點所以我們給業餘的費用也比較高一點那目前這些篩檢的全國目前大概有1200多家的醫療院所來做服務那剛剛也提到了那除了幾個偏鄉沒有以外那這幾個偏鄉我們是用外展就是能夠讓地方去或者是"},{"start":210.92,"end":232.202,"text":"這個補助這個交通委把小孩子帶出來的方式希望能夠解決目前沒有辦法得到篩檢的一個服務當然如果提高現在我們都很清楚如果整篩能夠一批來當然一起篩可是那畢竟提供的人跟對象不大一樣癌篩的年齡都比較中高年齡比方剛才30歲以上是不是兒科這些人"},{"start":233.143,"end":258.29,"text":"我們沒辦法預測去那天有多少人那如果說我們可以示範看看因為地方如果有辦法把這些小孩子符合的那請到現場當然我們請專業的人去幫忙當然沒有問題特別是他如果有同時具有成見的資格那就可以一起做那就不用再請其他的人進來我想這個是可以嚴厲的示範看看畢竟那個流程是不一樣的"},{"start":259.23,"end":272.265,"text":"了解我們現在科技也要進步嘛剛剛那個趙偉提到林鄭就最好用因為都知道什麼人有需要做什麼所以如果能夠把這些做一些連結的話希望能夠針對整體的篩檢是有幫助的"},{"start":274.468,"end":298.041,"text":"那再過來就是有關兒童發展篩檢的服務的部分我們當然也了解如何能夠讓這些在發展相對比較遲緩或者是有需要相關協助的人能夠把兒童篩檢出來的話當然對他們不管是在早療或者是剛才很關心的這些語言治療事實上幫助都非常的大"},{"start":298.601,"end":318.42,"text":"那從今天的報告裡面也知道從113年7月份開始就實施這個未滿7歲的兒童新增6次的兒童發展的服務那成果到今年的4月 將近4個月的時間一共有參加的這個醫療院所1206家"},{"start":320.882,"end":340.558,"text":"醫師有那麼多 2000多位篩檢了30萬的人次異常率差不多是6.2%當然我們將來會持續了解這個異常率到底是有沒有集中在哪一些的異常或者是未來在處理上面需要再增加哪一些的部分不過比較好奇的就是說那些30萬會不會集中在某一些縣市啊"},{"start":341.298,"end":369.337,"text":"我想22縣市都有啦不會集中在某一個縣市因為他是屬於開業的診所或者醫院當地那民眾到那裡去要請他幫忙篩檢的所以全國平均起來大概是因為小孩子少的時候他的篩檢率占的比就低嘛小孩子多的占比就會高一點那目前全國大概30萬大概我們的占比大概一般的地區大概46%左右那"},{"start":370.817,"end":383.604,"text":"這個偏鄉離島大概在40%左右我們一起希望能夠篩的小孩子目前涵蓋這個政策剛上半年多而已啦所以還在持續的鼓勵大家來參與提升這樣的篩檢力"},{"start":386.286,"end":411.161,"text":"補助的縣市現在有幾個已經補下去了22縣市都有了我們有那個表格在提供給你好啊好啊因為我們了解好像沒有問題我們在提供給你OK好再來就是大家很關心的就是這些篩檢以後那怎麼讓這些有需要的兒童能夠得到這個兒童發展聯合評估中心來做評估我們看起來就是有80百件"},{"start":412.382,"end":434.048,"text":"事實上它的分佈相對是比較有一些不一樣比如說像高雄市它就很積極有12間台北市現在有3間新竹市有1間還有包括剛剛稍微所提到的屏東有4間這個分佈到底未來如何能夠有效的去增加這個量有沒有特別的規劃"},{"start":435.649,"end":447.982,"text":"我們剛剛提到的塞出來以後必須要讓它掛得到好而且在時間內拿到聯品輸入然後早一點進到藻寮這是我們最主要的目的所以我們一開始是先從後端這個聯品中心來擴充它的量能"},{"start":451.326,"end":471.137,"text":"所以我們剛剛聽到很多人說過去因為52家那時候只能拼大概2萬個人左右那現在我們114年大概可以拼到4萬5千人左右那就可以涵蓋所有的小孩子那目前稍微有缺乏一點的大概新北市就是台北北區這裡可能在量能還不足一點點那麼"},{"start":473.482,"end":492.43,"text":"那個澎湖也稍微缺了一點點那這個東西我們會利用其他的方式來協助那我們也一直在跟地方討論怎麼把這些量能補起來能夠符合需要進到聯品的人都得到聯品這個是我們的最終的目的我們希望今年度底到12月底可以達到百分之百"},{"start":493.403,"end":518.641,"text":"好百分之百太好了謝謝好那請回去回座休息我們來請教一下部長有關這個社務預算因為剛剛趙委員提到現在僅僅有將近這個八九百億所以針對除了一般的社務預算以外對兒童的部分其實兒少預算也隨著有很好的這個增加我們透過"},{"start":519.882,"end":542.659,"text":"聯合國兒童權益公約CRC的資訊網裡面可以看到過去這幾年來真的都有明顯的增加不管在百分比或者是在中央的或地方政府的預算都有在增加這個看起來是很符合針對兒少的保護或者是提供他們更好的成長有非常好的一些預算成長的支出"},{"start":544.14,"end":556.132,"text":"應該是大家都會替我們這個未來的國家主人翁覺得非常的好的一些方法不過我們也知道這個新版的裁判法上路以後會衝擊28%的社政預算"},{"start":559.415,"end":573.251,"text":"這是你說的嘛就是有28%的市民預算其中會包括育兒津貼、社安軟人力還有可能剛剛我們所提到一些相關的問題都會受影響那請問有沒有什麼樣的方案在準備中嗎"},{"start":580.898,"end":589.925,"text":"我想我們會根據行政院整體的調配方式來應用處理我們一定會努力來讓我們不管是各個"},{"start":591.209,"end":619.682,"text":"各個相關的社福單位還是能夠運作順利這個我們會努力是 尤其是兒少預算如果依照目前我們所理解的有越來越增加的趨勢會不會因為這個財務法以後呢相關的中央預算就會受影響因為我們也知道國防預算是無法我們也不希望說國防預算受到衝擊可是相較之下那其他預算會不會受衝擊尤其是在衛福 兒少"},{"start":621.022,"end":645.037,"text":"我們希望未來中央跟地方一起合作保定在行政院相關的部會會議的時候能夠把這樣的需求也能夠強烈的爭取既然在已經預算已經在法案處理之下變成有另外的分配的時候我們整個"},{"start":646.358,"end":669.322,"text":"思考就是要資源的分配可能要再談一下然後總歸不管是中央或地方一定要攜手合作來對社福特別是兒童的一個照顧一定不能減分那有關於這個衛福資料治理法治化的部分我想時間的關係我們就留待下一次再跟你討論好 謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":673.883,"end":674.485,"text":"那接續我們請羅廷偉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩國健署吳署長，我們讓邱部長先休息一下。"],["主席：吳署長。"],["吳署長昭軍：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：署長，你好。今天我們有一個很重要的主題，關於偏鄉篩檢量能如何落實，一個重要的議題，因為大部分的業務都是麻煩署長處理，所以我就先與署長一起討論一下。","針對偏鄉篩檢，我們有沒有機會研議整合性外展服務模式或一站式的服務模式，希望能針對我們希望提升的篩檢量能做有效的提升？目前我們到底有多少所謂的公費篩檢？目前由國健署負責的主要有三種，包括免費成人健康檢查、兒童發展篩檢服務及五大癌症篩檢，這些都是非常重要的。至於在人力方面，署長可能要設法讓人力服務的部分能夠有效的提升。我們可以看到免費成人健康檢查原本是40歲，現在又降為30歲，理論上，服務的人數應該會更多，但是以六個都會區的篩檢利用率來看，差不多都只有二成多、三成左右，相較於偏鄉或農業縣市，好像也沒有比較好。不過，我們也能理解，因為都會地區的醫療方便性，大家認為不需要再去做成人服務的健康檢查，這是可以理解的。但是三成與國際相比是不是比較差，其實好像也沒有差那麼多，雖然大家認為三成還是可以再增加，沒辦法！不過，我們也可以理解，在這三個篩檢服務中，包括今天的重點─兒童發展篩檢服務，有辦法一起來做嗎？比如說他來做成人健康檢查，他剛好把孫子一起帶來或是他剛好把小孩一起帶來，他同時又符合癌症篩檢，可以一起來做嗎？這個部分不知道目前有沒有相關的規劃，或者在處理上有什麼困境之類的，可不可以請署長先做一個說明？"],["吳署長昭軍：謝謝委員的關心，我們在篩檢最重要就是能夠讓民眾以最方便的方式，而且是可近性的方式，所以怎麼樣提供這樣的方式非常重要。第二個就是篩檢的人員必須要受過訓練，因為這是一個新的篩檢工具，那麼它也是資訊化在處理，當然篩檢的時間會比較長一點點，所以我們給予的費用也比較高一點。","目前這些篩檢在全國大概有一千兩百多家醫療院所來做服務，剛剛也提到了，除了幾個偏鄉沒有以外，對這幾個偏鄉我們是用外展，就是能夠讓地方去，或者是補助交通費把小孩子帶出來的方式，希望能夠解決目前沒有辦法得到篩檢服務的問題。","現在我們都很清楚，如果整篩能夠一起來，當然一起篩，可是提供的人跟對象畢竟不大一樣，比方說癌篩的年齡比較是中高齡，剛剛講30歲以上、40歲。至於兒科這些人，我們沒辦法預測去的那一天有多少人，未來我們可以試辦看看，地方如果有辦法把這些符合的小孩子請到現場，我們請專業的人去幫忙當然沒有問題，特別是他如果同時具有成健的資格，那就可以一起做，不用再請其他的人力進來，我想這個是可以研議來試辦看看，畢竟那個流程是不一樣的。"],["王委員正旭：是，瞭解。現在科技越來越進步，剛剛召委也提到鄰長最好用，因為他知道誰有需要做什麼，所以如果能夠把這些做連結的話，對整體的篩檢是有幫助的。"],["吳署長昭軍：是。"],["王委員正旭：再來是關於兒童發展篩檢服務的部分，我們當然也瞭解，如果能夠把這些發展相對比較遲緩或是需要相關協助的兒童篩檢出來的話，對他們的早療或者是剛剛召委很關心的語言治療，事實上幫助都非常的大。","從今天的報告裡面可以知道，從113年7月份開始實施未滿7歲兒童新增6次兒童發展篩檢服務，截至今年4月的成果，將近10個月的時間，參加的醫療院所一共有1,206家，醫師有兩千多位，篩檢了30萬人次，異常率差不多是6.2%。當然我們將來會持續瞭解這個異常率有沒有集中在哪一些異常，或者是未來在處理上面需要再增加哪一些部分，不過我比較好奇的是，你篩檢的30萬人次會不會集中在某一些縣市？"],["吳署長昭軍：我想22縣市都有啦！不會集中在某一個縣市，因為它是屬於當地開業的診所或者醫院，民眾到那裡去請它幫忙篩檢。"],["王委員正旭：是，因為有……"],["吳署長昭軍：所以全國平均起來，因為小孩子少的時候，它的篩檢率占比就低嘛！小孩子多的地方占比就會高一點，那目前全國大概30萬人次，一般的地區大概46%左右，偏鄉離島在40%左右，換句話說，我們預期希望能夠篩的小孩子，目前涵蓋率是這樣，因為這個政策上路半年多而已，所以還在持續鼓勵大家來參與，提升篩檢率。"],["王委員正旭：OK，補助的縣市現在有幾個已經撥下去了？"],["吳署長昭軍：22縣市都有。"],["王委員正旭：都有了？"],["吳署長昭軍：都有，我們有表格，再提供給委員。"],["王委員正旭：好啊！因為就我們的瞭解，你們有push的好像還沒有那麼多。"],["吳署長昭軍：沒有問題，我們再提供給委員。"],["王委員正旭：好，再來就是大家很關心的，在這些篩檢以後，怎麼讓有需要的兒童能夠得到兒童發展聯合評估中心來做評估？我們看起來是有88家，事實上它的分布是有一些不一樣，像高雄市就很積極，它有12間；臺北市現在有3間；新竹市有1間；還有剛剛召委所提到的，屏東有4間。這個分布在未來要如何有效地去增加量能，有沒有特別的規劃？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們剛剛提到了，篩出來以後必須要讓他掛得到號，而且在時間內拿到聯評書，然後早一點進到早療，這是我們最主要的目的，所以一開始是先從後端的聯評中心來擴充量能。我們剛剛聽到很多人說過去因為52家，那時候只能評2萬人左右，現在114年可以評到4萬5,000人左右，那就可以涵蓋所有的小孩子。","目前稍微有缺乏一點的大概是新北市，就是臺北北區這裡，可能量能還不足一點點，澎湖也稍微缺了一點點，這個東西我們會利用其他的方式來協助，我們也一直在跟地方討論怎麼把這些量能補起來，能夠符合需要進到聯評的人都得到聯評，這個是我們最終的目的，我們希望今年度到12月底可以達到百分之百。"],["王委員正旭：好，百分之百，太好了，謝謝。請署長回座休息。"],["吳署長昭軍：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：我來請教一下部長，有關於社福預算，因為剛剛召委提到現在一年將近有八、九百億，除了一般的社福預算以外，對兒童的部分，其實兒少預算也有很好的增加，透過聯合國兒童權利公約CRC資訊網，我們可以看到過去這幾年來真的都有明顯的增加，不管是在百分比，或者是在中央或地方政府的預算都有增加，看起來很符合針對兒少的保護，提供他們更好的成長，有非常好的預算支出，對於國家未來的主人翁，大家覺得有非常好的一些方法。","不過我們也知道新版的財劃法上路以後，會衝擊28%的社政預算，這是你說的嘛！有28%的社政預算，其中包括育兒津貼、社安網人力，還有剛剛我們所提到的相關問題可能都會受影響，請問有沒有什麼樣的方案在準備中？財劃法現在上路了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會根據行政院整體的調配方式來因應處理，我們一定會努力讓相關的社福單位能夠運作順利，這個我們會努力。"],["王委員正旭：是，尤其是兒少的預算，如果依照目前我們所理解的，有越來越增加的趨勢，會不會因為財劃法上路以後，相關的中央預算就會受影響？因為我們知道國防預算是無法刪減，我們也不希望國防預算受到衝擊，可是相較之下，其他的預算會不會受衝擊？尤其是在衛福、兒少相關預算的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望未來中央和地方一起合作。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以要麻煩部長在行政院相關的部會會議的時候，對於這樣的需求能夠強烈地爭取，不要受到影響。"],["邱部長泰源：既然預算已經在那個法案的處理之下，變成有另外的分配的時候，我們的思考就是資源的分配可能要再談一下，不管是中央或地方，一定要攜手合作來對所有社福，特別是兒少的照顧，一定不能減分。"],["王委員正旭：好，這個再麻煩你。有關於衛福資料治理法制化的部分，因為時間的關係，我們留待下一次再跟你討論，好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0d00c031a1ba795aac0f390e692fb4f24ca7a32b531de3e800f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:57:42 - 12:08:42","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra 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還有匯率超總 將這些因素量化以後他就對各國制定一個單一的這個對等關稅的稅率用一個貿易順差逆差 用他們一個特別的標準就列出了對我們的關稅稅率很高啦那美國的這個貿易代表署USDR3月31號也發佈了2025年各國貿易評估報告評估59個貿易夥伴的這個"},{"start":53.1,"end":74.775,"text":"貿易協議的情形還有貿易的這個壁壘在裡頭關於台灣的部分有六頁跟去年篇幅一樣那一樣是關切台灣對稻米基因改造作物的非關稅壁壘然後提出對美牛美豬美製汽車的技術性壁壘還有制裁權的保護金融業雲端服務外包規範健保署政策透明的這個"},{"start":77.616,"end":102.703,"text":"在這裡頭我本席關注的是其中有一段有提到在稅務政策方面雖然烹飪用米酒能當作酒精飲料飲用但是在台灣對於烹飪用的米酒課真的稅率低於能做飲料飲用的酒精產品美國繼續向台灣當局表示關切要求採取措施確保進口酒類飲料的稅率不高於國產"},{"start":103.863,"end":126.395,"text":"酒類飲料進口飲料的稅率不高於國產酒類飲料包括人可以作為酒精飲料的這個噴霧用的這個米酒那這個調降進口酒的這個關稅背景我大概說明一下因應貿易的自由國際化我國自76年開始開放外國啤酒和烈酒酒品進口那從91年我們正式加入WTO以後廢除菸酒專賣制度開放國內的"},{"start":129.677,"end":137.263,"text":"酒類產製還有進口引進市場競爭機制國內的酒品就自由競爭市場我們金門的金酒公司也因為這樣和進口酒一樣要負擔高額的菸酒稅和營業稅等當時只有少量的蒸餾酒和進口的古類酒關稅維持40%是考慮說可能會影響國內的國產的酒類和政府庫存米的銷售這個是那時候的背景"},{"start":153.697,"end":175.048,"text":"到了2019年的時候那調降進口酒的關稅背景是說為了創造有利五國參加CPTPP那經過通盤的政策檢討以後就以這個國產量少沒有明顯替代關係稅率高於其他酒類的古類釀酒就調降就是說比如說將日本的清酒由40%調降到20%這個是這個關稅背景那111年的時候我們財政部也提出古類酒"},{"start":180.971,"end":207.933,"text":"進口關稅稅率調降實施成效當時的結論說調降雖然三年了但是可能受COVID-19影響了因素成本國外因素成本增加所以事實上降稅後谷類酒的進口值和進口量佔這個國內整體的酒品數量只有微幅的這個成長好我講了這麼多這個背景的這個說明想要跟您請教在上次的實施成效報告之後有沒有再次提出新的成效報告有沒有"},{"start":211.563,"end":223.798,"text":"目前是沒有,就是上次提出來的那面對美國可能在提出對股類酒已經有提出來了關稅稅率的關切是不是這個部分又會被拿來當談判的籌碼"},{"start":227.068,"end":254.803,"text":"目前就我們所知我們就是財政部的立場就是把我們相關的這個就是進口的量還有進口課稅的稅率提供給這個行政院經貿談判辦公室那你們呢 當然他們是談判啦 沒錯那你們有沒有提出相關的說對美國可能 你覺得美國有可能在拿這個來當那個嘛 有嘛 對不對古類酒這個關稅的這個稅率嘛他意思是說我們的米酒太"},{"start":256.223,"end":276.799,"text":"他的重點大概就是剛才委員有提到的就是我們對於那個就是蒸餾酒的課稅跟那個國內那個料理米酒的稅率之間的差異所以我們呢我們對這個我們有沒有做出相關的評估報告還有對國內的酒品市場影響有沒有做出影響的評估報告因為這個到時候談判出來對"},{"start":277.8,"end":295.602,"text":"但是我們是有提出來提供給經貿談判辦公室有做出對國內酒品市場的影響評估報告有嗎是有相關的報告那這個請你提供不過委員這部分目前還不能提供給委員我們目前就是作為談判的"},{"start":296.363,"end":297.024,"text":"貿易逆差歸零影響評估"},{"start":316.803,"end":338.32,"text":"石破默就說 川普要求貿易逆差要縮減到零對日本提出很多要求但這次他們在國會上強調日本首相說日本不會對美國一味的讓步有強硬的立場假設美國也要求我們對他的貿易逆差也要歸零我們的財政衝擊影響哪些面向"},{"start":340.304,"end":367.713,"text":"我覺得這個部分其實我們不管是我們的院長或者是我們總統其實都有對外宣示宣示怎樣 跪下來嗎就是我們這個談判過程一定是站在對我們國民利益國家利益最大的這個利益的立場就是投資嘛 幾千億啊投資幾千億然後從零開始談啊然後買東西啊 買他的天然氣啊最差只剩下第五步沒有做就是美國財政部要求直接捐錢給美國財政部啊"},{"start":368.753,"end":394.691,"text":"對不對 他要求五樣東西嘛因為談判過程當然有不同的策略啦有不同的策略啦不同的策略喔那我們財政部站在我們財政部的這個立場會不會財政部立場就是提供相關的資訊給經貿談判辦公室會不會堅持就是對國內產業包括經濟部市長也有來嘛會不會對我們產業比較有利的會堅持嗎當然我們已經在在維護我們國家還有人民最大的利益的立場來做談判但美國 美國強勢要求咧"},{"start":396.887,"end":419.843,"text":"基本上我們應該也是往這個方向來努力我知道你也沒有辦法決定我只是看一下世界各國是怎麼做包括墨西哥今天的做法也不一樣了接著我們來看一下大家一直討論的今天也是很重要就是汽機車廢物所以調降的部分我們已經說過很多次了之前交通委員會有相關的專案報告財政部說配合什麼政策"},{"start":420.843,"end":424.264,"text":"免徵貨稅 電動就免徵了這個已經講過很多次我也提出來很多修法也問過很多次你們給我的報告裡頭也說要跟主管機關就是經濟部審慎的評估你們財政部給我報告裡頭說不宜調降貨物稅 棄機車尤其機車是年輕族群可能比較一般"},{"start":444.589,"end":466.463,"text":"初步的這個代步的車子你們說不宜調降是因為已經免增了實質減輕負擔我們的消費稅和其他國家沒有比較高沒有要列入整體的這個稅制考量我們來看一下我們的稅較於其他國家貨幣稅真的沒有偏高嗎我做一個比較表您看一下喔這個齁我們這個機車的部分我們是17%嘛中國八路3% 10%新加坡12%印度3% 韓國5%"},{"start":473.547,"end":497.475,"text":"沒有比較高嗎這個表格各位委員報告因為我們事實上因為提供了其他的那個相關產業政策的其他的太舊換新啊還有就是我知道我知道但是就是現在機車就是有17%的小貨物稅嘛沒有比較高嗎沒有因為你們給我的答案說不能降稅的原因是因為沒有比其他國高啊太舊換新是部分的車子嘛不是全部的車子嘛電動的那個"},{"start":501.136,"end":511.382,"text":"好來看汽車的部分我們汽車15%、25%、30%比哪一國低啊?韓國5%、印度1%到22%我們30%、新加坡20%還有我們的消費稅所以這個應該貨物稅要通盤檢討大家已經講了又講了尤其在這一次美國跟我們要做關稅貿易談判的這部分面對對等貿易談判的關稅談判的壓力"},{"start":529.611,"end":545.563,"text":"他們一定會提出這一點尤其美國在乎這個汽車嘛美國製的這個汽車所以這個東西是不是要找出根據我們的這個採化法你說如果我們要降稅啦如果我們要降稅要找替代人員嘛採化法有規定嘛38條之一嘛採化法有規定如果立法院修正要減稅 貨物稅要減"},{"start":547.364,"end":569.655,"text":"那就要有相關規定我們立法院提出來你們都不支持嘛一箱都不減稅但是如果美國提出來的話說這個稅一定要降美國棄稅要進來不能不公平待遇關稅什麼對等逆差要歸零的話你們可能就會做好那我要跟你們提醒如果你們要做的時候我看經濟部是報告也是有支持要調整嘛那財政部的部分經濟部你有支持嘛對不對"},{"start":570.675,"end":574.297,"text":"支持機車的貨物稅或汽機車的產業的部分收集到產業界的意見他認為說若是能合理的反映貨物稅對於整個產業的發展"},{"start":587.062,"end":606.585,"text":"是正面的嘛這不就跟謝謝市長就跟那個正交稅一樣嗎所以你調降三變1.5但是事實上成交量還變高啊所以整體的話稅收不一定會變少啦那如果說稅收變少你們要提出相關的替代人員在跟美國談判以後面對美國這個談判的壓力你們提出來你們要提出相對的這個人的這個"},{"start":607.806,"end":624.157,"text":"這個替代財源喔這個一樣喔不是說美國說要降就可以降我們立法委員這邊講了一百遍都沒有辦法降半毛錢喔然後我也建議啦面對這個談判的壓力啦對我們影響比較小就可以先釋出善意這個也是個正面的喔可以影響比如說從"},{"start":625.919,"end":638.293,"text":"關稅跟貨物稅跟這個進口車跟國產車關稅可能會有差別所以我們可以從貨物稅著手啦簡單的從這個貨物稅機車啦汽車貨物稅調降著手也可以真正的這個造福民眾啦市長財政部這樣有聽到嗎"},{"start":642.018,"end":655.656,"text":"謝謝委員指導一定要慎重列入考慮我們也是往這方向在提供談判的參考要造福百姓不是只有屈服於美國的壓力當百姓一直在講的時候立法委員不管跟黨派講這麼多是你們都當作沒有聽到謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時57分）謝謝主席。請次長跟國庫署署長。"],["主席：次長跟國務署的陳署長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：次長，我國經貿談判辦公室的總代表楊珍妮有說，美國認為造成貨品貿易逆差的因素，包括關稅的稅率差距，對美商收取不公平、歧視性的國內稅款，如加值稅、數位服務稅等，對美國產品採取非關稅貿易障礙，還有匯率操縱，將這些因素量化後，美方就對各國制定單一對等關稅的稅率，用貿易順差、逆差為依據的特別標準，列出對我們關稅稅率很高。","美國貿易代表署（USTR）3月31號也發布了2025年各國貿易評估報告，評估59個貿易夥伴的貿易協議情形與貿易壁壘。關於臺灣的部分，跟去年篇幅一樣總共有六頁，關切臺灣對稻米、基因改造作物的非關稅壁壘，提出對美牛、美豬、美製汽車的技術性壁壘，還有對智財權的保護、金融業雲端服務外包規費、健保署政策透明的疑慮。","本席關注的是其中一段提到，在稅務政策方面，雖然烹飪用米酒能當作酒精飲料飲用，但是在臺灣對烹飪用米酒課徵的稅率低於能作為飲料飲用的酒精產品。美國繼續向臺灣當局表示關切，要求採取措施確保進口酒類飲料的稅率，不高於國產酒類飲料，包括可以作為酒精飲料的烹飪用米酒。調降進口酒的關稅背景，我大概說明一下，因應貿易自由國際化，我國自76年起，開放外國啤酒和烈酒酒品進口，從91年我們正式加入WTO以後，廢除菸酒專賣制度，開放國內酒類產製還有進口，引進市場競爭機制，國內酒品就成為自由競爭市場，金門的金酒公司也因為這樣和進口酒一樣，要負擔高額菸酒稅和營業稅等。當時只有少量蒸餾酒和進口穀類酒的關稅維持40%，是考慮到可能影響國產酒類和政府庫存米的銷售，這是那時候的背景。到了2019年，調降進口酒的關稅背景是為了創造有利我國參加CPTPP的條件，經過通盤的政策檢討以後，就將國產量少、沒有明顯替代關係、稅率高於其他酒類的穀類釀酒稅率調降，比如說將日本清酒由40%調降到20%，這是對關稅壁壘的相關處理。111年的時候，財政部也提出穀類酒進口關稅稅率調降實施成效，當時的結論是雖然調降3年了，但是可能受到COVID-19影響，國外運輸成本增加，所以事實上降稅後，穀類酒的進口值和進口量占國內整體酒品的數量仍只有微幅成長。","好！我講了這麼多背景說明，是要跟您請教，在上次的實施成效報告之後，有沒有再次提出新的成效報告？有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：目前是沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有喔！"],["李次長慶華：是，就是上次提出來的。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有嘛！111年之後就沒有？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那面對美國已經對穀類酒提出關稅稅率的關切，這個部分是不是又會被拿來當談判籌碼？"],["李次長慶華：目前就我們所知，財政部的立場就是把相關的進口量還有進口課稅稅率，提供給行政院經貿談判辦公室作為談判參考。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你們呢？當然他們是談判單位沒錯，那你們有沒有提出相關看法？你們覺得美國有可能再拿這個議題來當籌碼嗎？有嘛！對不對？也就是對於穀類酒關稅稅率，他們的意思是我們的米酒太……"],["李次長慶華：他們的重點大概如同剛才委員提到的，就是我們對蒸餾酒的課稅跟國內料理米酒稅率之間的差距。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，所以財政部有沒有做出相關評估報告？還有，針對國內酒品市場受到的影響有沒有做出影響評估報告啊？到時候談判出來，對酒品市場也有影響。"],["李次長慶華：我們當然有提出來，而且提供給經貿談判辦公室作為參考。"],["陳委員玉珍：有做出對國內酒品市場影響的評估報告嗎？有嗎？"],["李次長慶華：有相關評估報告。"],["陳委員玉珍：那麼請你提供。"],["李次長慶華：不過這部分目前還不能提供給委員，就是因為談判的考量。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，好，那談判以後請你們要提供，說明對國內酒品市場影響怎樣、接著可能要有什麼樣的因應措施。","我們來看一下貿易逆差歸零的影響評估。川普都要求貿易逆差歸零了，我們來看看日本怎麼處理。日本先進入談判，他們的首相石破茂就說川普要求貿易逆差要縮減到零，並對日本提出很多要求，但這次日本首相在國會上強調，日本不會對美國一味讓步，且會有強硬的立場。假設美國也要求我們對他們的貿易逆差歸零，對我們的財政衝擊、影響有哪些面向？"],["李次長慶華：在這部分，不管是我們的院長或總統其實都有對外宣示……"],["陳委員玉珍：宣示怎麼樣？跪下來嗎？從零開始啊！"],["李次長慶華：就是我們的談判過程一定站在我們國民利益、國家利益最大的立場來談判。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是投資幾千億啊！"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：投資幾千億、關稅從零開始談啊！"],["李次長慶華：當然有各種面向……"],["陳委員玉珍：然後買東西啊！買他們的天然氣，只剩下最差的第五步沒有做了，就是美國財政部要求直接捐錢給美國財政部，對不對？他們要求5樣東西嘛！也包括軍購提高。"],["李次長慶華：談判過程當然有各種不同策略。"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["李次長慶華：有不同策略啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：不同策略喔？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那站在財政部的立場，會不會……"],["李次長慶華：財政部的立場就是提供相關資訊給經貿談判辦公室作為參考。"],["陳委員玉珍：會不會堅持國內產業利益？經濟部次長也有來嘛！對我們產業比較有利的，會堅持嗎？"],["李次長慶華：當然我們一定站在維護我們國家還有人民最大利益的立場來談判。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果美國強勢要求呢？"],["李次長慶華：基本上，我們應該也是往這個方向來努力啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我知道你也沒有辦法決定啦！我只是講一下、給你看一下世界各國是怎麼做的，包括墨西哥今天的作法也不一樣了。","接著我們來看一下大家一直討論的、也是今天很重要的議題，就是汽機車貨物稅調降的部分，我們已經說過很多次了，之前交通委員會也有相關專案報告。財政部說配合政策已經免徵貨物稅、也就是電動機車免徵了，這點已經講過很多次，我也提出很多修法、問過很多次。在你們給我的報告裡頭說要跟主管機關──經濟部審慎評估，但就在你們財政部給我的報告裡頭，也說不宜調降汽機車貨物稅，是汽機車喔！尤其機車是年輕族群一般、初步的代步車子，你們說不宜調降，是因為已經免徵、實質減輕負擔，導致我們的消費相較於其他國家沒有比較高，要列入整體稅制考量。但我們來看一下較於其他國家，貨物稅真的沒有偏高嗎？我做了一個比較表，您看一下。機車的部分，我國課17%，相較於中國大陸課3%、10%、新加坡12%、印度3%、韓國5%，看看這個表格沒有比較高嗎？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，事實上因為提供了其他相關產業政策，例如汰舊換新等相關優惠……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，但現在機車就是有17%的貨物稅嘛！沒有比較高嗎？"],["李次長慶華：實際17%算起來幾乎只有……"],["陳委員玉珍：依照你們給我的答案，不能降稅的原因是沒有比其他國家高啊！"],["李次長慶華：沒有，其實我們現在提供汰舊換新機車大概……"],["陳委員玉珍：汰舊換新是針對部分車子嘛！不是針對全部車子嘛！是電動的……"],["李次長慶華：現在幾乎就已經降掉一半了。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那你再看汽車部分。我們的汽車稅率是15%、25%、30%，比哪一國低啊？韓國5%、印度1～22%，我們30%，新加坡20%。"],["李次長慶華：還是有汰舊換新減徵5%等。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們還有消費稅喔！所以貨物稅這件事要通盤檢討啦！大家已經講了又講，尤其這一次美國要跟我們做關稅貿易談判，我們面對這種對等、關稅談判的壓力，而他們一定會提出這一點，尤其美國在乎美國製汽車啊！所以是不是要找出辦法？如果要降稅，根據財劃法，就要找替代財源，財劃法有規定嘛！財劃法第三十八條之一規定，如果立法院修正貨物稅要減，就要有相關規定。我們立法委員提出來的，你們都不支持、一向都不減稅，但是如果是美國提出要求這個稅一定要降，因為美國汽車要進來，不能有不公平待遇、關稅要對等、逆差要歸零的話，你們可能就會做。那我要提醒你們，我看到經濟部在報告裡也支持要調整嘛！那財政部的部分……經濟部也支持，對不對？支持調降汽機車貨物稅，就是產業的部分。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。我們蒐集到產業界的意見，認為若是能合理反映貨物稅……"],["陳委員玉珍：調降啦！"],["賴次長建信：對，對於整個產業的發展、對消費者來講……"],["陳委員玉珍：也是正面的嘛！謝謝次長。那不就跟證交稅一樣嘛！雖然稅率調降從千分之三變成千分之一點五，但事實上成交量還變高啊！所以整體稅收不一定會變少啦！","如果稅收會變少，你們也要提出相關替代財源。在跟美國談判時，面對美國的談判壓力，你們也要提出相對的替代財源，一樣喔！不是美國要降就可以降，我們立法委員在這邊講一百遍卻都沒辦法降半毛錢。我也建議面對談判的壓力，對於我們影響比較小的就可以先釋出善意，這也是一種正面的做法。比如進口車跟國產車可能因為關稅會有差別，所以我們可以從貨物稅著手啦！從簡單的機車貨物稅、汽車貨物稅調降著手，也可以真正地造福民眾，財政部有聽到嗎？"],["李次長慶華：有，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員玉珍：一定要慎重列入考慮啦！"],["李次長慶華：我們也往這個方向提供談判的參考。"],["陳委員玉珍：要造福百姓啦！不是只屈服於美國的壓力，當百姓一直在講、立法委員不分黨派也講這麼多，你們卻都當沒有聽到啦！"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的質詢。","下一位請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160540","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160540","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0a419303f535967f97fe8c6252e35fc4aca7a32b531de3e8092b622d999c34a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:01:12 - 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部長好 剛剛聽到你在回答中委員的提問的時候我是善意的提醒我覺得任何的回答要做制度上的改變的時候這個真的要先了解研議"},{"start":34.396,"end":49.748,"text":"評估那最後有定案那才公開說啦不然像剛剛你就隨口一句然後後來才急著又要說我們考慮考慮我覺得真的建議部長是不是真的要三思而開口說出"},{"start":51.209,"end":56.753,"text":"我為什麼這麼說 息產地這個問題我們全力支持 我也曾經跟其他委員開過記者會那這個在對美談判來講是一個非常重要的一個因素那息產地的問題呢 我想有很多不同的產業別 他有不同的一個狀況那我自己個人對於你們現在貿易法向下所授權的關於這個息產地的一個的審查 審認標準那個35%的那個"},{"start":81.089,"end":83.89,"text":"這個%我個人也認為應該提高那至於要提多高我建議啦經濟部真的要好好盤點各個產業裡面到底對於這個息產地的定義這個遊戲規則要定清楚讓我們的各個產業可以有所依循也比較好啦部長你同意嗎謝謝委員"},{"start":103.655,"end":109.5,"text":"謝謝你那第二個我就要開始來講我昨天也有找我們行政院副院長邀請他到台中跟產業界來座談那其中有一個向下大家非常關心美國高關稅這個政府談判的問題"},{"start":118.007,"end":144.253,"text":"那副院長也在現場說目前的談判是順利甚至在4月11號就第一次跟美國線上談判所以這個過程順利進行當中那其中我們賴總統有宣示的一個對策包括現在我們要特別預算880億裡面工業的六大面向700億裡面有一個叫做開拓多元市場這個部分部長應該知道吧"},{"start":144.873,"end":164.352,"text":"是知道知道那你认为要怎么协助协助的部分我想分国外跟国内国外的部分在参加国际的活动我想我们开拓国际的市场有这样的一个计划就是我们台湾Select这样的一套的计划第二个"},{"start":165.172,"end":183.884,"text":"補助這個企業去參加國際的這個展覽第三個協助工協會辦理貿易推廣的活動在海外推廣貿易推廣這個分散市場就是要我們要協助產業要向外去找訂單嘛對不對那所以呢我們要協助那我知道呢以目前在產業界"},{"start":186.286,"end":191.449,"text":"有發生一件事情我也希望我們經濟部可以的來協助我們願意遵守國際規範叫做瓦森納協定部長應該知道吧知道這個總共清單有356頁這裡面在講軍商兩用的貨品或者是技術出口的管制清單"},{"start":208.16,"end":220.194,"text":"那因為呢中部有很多的零組件的製造商那不管了他的軍商糧用貨品裡面不管是系統或者是技術或者是零組件那是不是在這個356頁裡面的清單裡面"},{"start":223.237,"end":233.704,"text":"第一個我碰到的是產業界的聲音是他不太清楚那為什麼不太清楚因為呢很多都是報關的業務那報關的業務呢我請教過國貿署也請教過財政部關務署所以你們都有在宣導但是我們常常碰到一個問題是什麼遵守國際規範我們願意我們願意接受管控但是你要讓我清楚遊戲規則而且希望有效率的來協助為什麼呢來下一頁"},{"start":250.914,"end":256.859,"text":"我們要求我們的產業要拓展市場要拓展市場就要尋求很多國家的一個訂單但是呢政府要幫忙簡化行政啊包括金流的程序要加快台灣廠商國外市場裡面我們在這個瓦瑟納協定裡面有十多個高風險的國家"},{"start":270.431,"end":292.043,"text":"這十多個高風險的國家 如果我台商要去 台灣的廠商要去拓展市場我願意接受國際規範但是呢 當他在申請經濟部 貿易署 產發署相關的一個審認這個零組件到底是不是在瓦斯納協議裡面的規範清單裡面這個認定 第一個我希望能夠快"},{"start":293.284,"end":306.85,"text":"這個是行政程序的簡化跟效率第二個我也希望財政部、關務署也希望經濟部跟財政部講關務署在這方面橫向的聯繫程序也要快再來為什麼會說廠商會complain"},{"start":308.611,"end":312.416,"text":"過去我的經驗接受的程序是這樣子的流程通常要一個多月到兩個月而這個訂單啊對不起這個訂單下單了之後啊這個訂金啊我廠商要準備材料我要準備什麼什麼我這個訂金被押在這個銀行金融機構"},{"start":326.254,"end":328.496,"text":"我覺得這個政府應該要協助第一個協助廠商有效的資訊第二個強化部會的橫向聯繫第三個加速國際合作的訊息透明啦有效率啦就是這兩件事而已啦部長你支持嗎完全支持"},{"start":351.776,"end":367.029,"text":"那可不可以跟財政部跟金管會我們是不是可以跨部會的來聯繫把這個流程把它定的更有效率一點更簡化一點可以嗎是我們會這樣子做而且我們跟這個海關已經有這個平台今年會做18場的這個宣導"},{"start":371.166,"end":396.764,"text":"那我希望不是只有給報關的相關業務或是進出口工會我認為也要有工協會的幹部代表或者是廠商的代表可以嗎這些都會有都會嘛好不好我最後的最後就希望說部長我們要分上市場我們要提供資源資源要下在對的資源要能夠讓更多的產業對政府有信心對政府有感包括現在我們國外參展的這個補助的經費"},{"start":399.285,"end":421.96,"text":"說真的啦是不如日本韓國跟中國啦那甚至呢有很多廠商會抱怨政府到底在我國際參展的時候政府的角色在哪裡政府的資源在哪裡他感受不到那我希望藉由這一次危機就是轉機我們藉由這一次的特別預算好好的大家一起來協助產業讓這個民生經濟共度難關可以嗎部長是拜託啦好不好我們會這樣做謝謝"},{"start":431.012,"end":432.336,"text":"好謝謝何欣淳"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時1分）謝謝蔡召委，我們請郭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。剛剛聽到部長在回答鍾委員的提問，我善意的提醒，我覺得任何的回答若要做制度上的改變，真的要先了解、研議、評估，最後有了定案，再來公開說明，不然像你剛剛就隨口一句，然後才又急著說：我們考慮考慮。所以我建議部長是不是真的要三思再開口說出。","我為什麼會這麼說？有關洗產地這個議題，我們全力支持，我也曾經跟其他委員開過記者會，這個在對美談判來講，是一個非常重要的因素。就洗產地的問題，有很多不同的產業別，它有不同的狀況，對於現在貿易法項下所授權的，關於洗產地的審查、審認標準，就35%的部分，我個人也認為應該提高，至於要提多高，我建議經濟部真的要好好盤點各個產業裡面對於洗產地的定義，這個遊戲規則要定清楚，讓我們各個產業可以有所依循，這樣也比較好。部長你同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝你。第二個，本席昨天有邀請行政院副院長到臺中來跟產業界座談，其中有一項大家非常關心的就是美國高關稅，政府談判的問題，副院長在現場說明目前的談判順利，4月11日第一次跟美國線上談判，所以這個過程順利進行當中。我們賴總統也宣示了一個對策，包括現在880億的特別預算中，在工業六大面向700億裡面，有一個部分叫做開拓多元市場，部長應該知道吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是，知道。"],["何委員欣純：你認為要怎麼協助？"],["郭部長智輝：我想協助可以分國外跟國內兩方面，國外的部分，例如參加國際的活動，我們開拓國際市場有Taiwan 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部長可以嗎好 那我們請國防部 顧部長還有我們這個國安局 我們黃副局長是 李委員部長 看一下這個照片"},{"start":23.12,"end":45.877,"text":"那這個是最近在網路上有流傳就是做我們政府元首的一個親密接觸的影像當然這個是身為的一個影片跟影像那現在這一個刑事警察局已經介入調查了那我想請問一下兩位有沒有看過這個影片或是照片我本身沒有看過黃副局長沒有看過"},{"start":47.621,"end":73.488,"text":"那這個利用這個深圍的技術然後做這個不管是正副元首或是說傷害到台灣的影片應該會越來越多那我想請問一下 部長你看到這個用這個深圍的影片故意來破壞正副總統的形象 你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":75.066,"end":92.417,"text":"我想深緯的影像是我們現在應該要重要的一個要能夠讓國人能夠變就是說深緯的這個影像現在網路的傳播的速度非常的快"},{"start":93.237,"end":108.134,"text":"所以對這個深圍影像發生之後我們要立即加以讓公眾知悉這是屬於深圍的這個部分那後來讓也提升這個國人對這方面的識讀我想這個是很重要的"},{"start":109.015,"end":128.15,"text":"你們在這個2024年有公布四種在國防上可能會遇到身為挑戰風險的樣態那有四種那一種是這個網路釣魚攻擊它涉及到竊取個資或機密或是偽造影片 擾亂軍心就像我剛剛放的這個照片一樣還有偽造衛星圖片混淆偵查導致錯判還有製作爭議的訊息加劇對立與仇恨"},{"start":136.576,"end":153.904,"text":"那這四個是在去年國防部有提出來那這一個四種樣態那我請教一下部長那有關於說這個深圍對於這一個國軍的這一個影響那你們最近這一年還有做哪方面的這個措施呢"},{"start":155.842,"end":174.991,"text":"我想身為的這個部分如果對於我想這是屬於一種認知戰認知戰的一個作為我們不是只有我們這個國軍或者國防部會發生事實上是在所有的各領域會發生就我的理解"},{"start":176.572,"end":191.864,"text":"這個是一個跨部會要來進行協作整個國安的體制還有整個全政府都要來做那國安會來講他作為一個統籌跟國安局來進行這樣子的一個協助"},{"start":192.965,"end":215.783,"text":"是相當重要的那我們的話本身就會製作相關的這些在舉光炎帝也好在其他也好我們會強化我們官兵在這方面的一個嗜毒的能力還有利用不斷的一些一個文宣作為來強化民眾嗜毒的能力這樣子"},{"start":216.363,"end":234.102,"text":"那那個國安局的部分呢副局長我想很重要在這個身為的一個技術可以做某些特點的一個分析然後告知國人稍微辨識一下可以知道說這個是一個身為的一個偽造的一個影片那第二"},{"start":235.243,"end":257.695,"text":"警政署跟調查局都有這個辨識的這個設備啦那就可以透過他們做一個更精準的一個這個辨識的一個這個鑑識啦那第三個部分就是如果是確實身為馬上請相關單位做一個審查下架的一個動作讓這個影片不要繼續流傳產生這個認知的問題因為這個影片你說像這一個"},{"start":262.597,"end":285.622,"text":"澤倫斯基他們俄羅斯方面有假冒是澤倫斯基投降的影片等等都有所以在現在當然我們有這個時間去做處理但是有可能在我們做演習的時候類似這種假訊息身為的影片就很容易出來打擊國軍的士氣甚至對於我們的演習"},{"start":287.623,"end":311.205,"text":"給予錯誤的一個印象然後就是說我們的演習其實是怎麼樣不是我們所宣傳的那樣子我想說國防部這方面要怎麼去做因應委員這個指教是非常對所以快速的反應是很重要的然後另外要做反制也就是說它是錯誤的我們馬上不但舉出它的錯誤我們還提出反制的一些作為這個部分是相當重要的"},{"start":313.786,"end":338.521,"text":"那這個整個我個人之前在國安會服務那麼我想這個整個會有一個統籌的一個反制的一個相關的一個作為我是希望說包含這個國安會國安局國防部特別這方面尤其他這個已經針對到國家的元首副元首來做這個身為影片的攻擊我覺得這部分真的要加強注意因為類似的影片我認為會越來越多"},{"start":340.242,"end":360.149,"text":"那我再問最後一個問題就是說那個前國防部的這個軍情局的局長中將劉德良他有在這個政治大學國防大學國安局的這個在授課的時候提到說潛伏在台灣的共諜已經超過五千人了請問有這個數字嗎"},{"start":362.37,"end":378.737,"text":"他這個數字把在台失聯的入境人士都把他算在裡面達到一千三百多位所以這個數據我覺得我們是沒有掌握到那麼多可是他是在國安局的安研班上課都有提到類似的數據"},{"start":380.584,"end":393.073,"text":"所以副局長你就提到說在台灣失聯的大陸籍的人士現在有多少人現在有1330人那也沒有到5000多個那所以這5000多個數字是怎麼來的他還說這個是過去的數字現在的數字可能會更多"},{"start":399.808,"end":427.528,"text":"這個是他的推論啦依照我們的所掌握的那個情收進來的一個資訊來講沒有這麼多人啦因為他是以前是擔任過這一個軍情局的局長這是在國防部嘛對不對那我說他又在這個國防部的相關的你說國防大學有授課那我想說這個訊息國防部國安局這邊是不是要統合一下因為這個數字傳出去很驚人耶五千多個"},{"start":428.829,"end":449.702,"text":"我也不知道真假,所以利用這個機會就教兩位我想這個資訊他怎麼來的,我們可能要再就教他不過我剛剛也講過了,我們手頭上所掌握的人數是沒有那麼多所以那也不是共點,你掌握的是說這一個是"},{"start":450.991,"end":476.918,"text":"這個中國籍人是在台灣失聯的?對,應該是他把他批錯進來啦那這些失聯的人現在咧?這個是我們各國安情報單位還有甘斯瓦吉拿單位就積極在查找,在查緝的那有什麼具體的成果?因為一千多位是哪時候的數字?這個是近年來,大概近六年來的一個數據啦"},{"start":479.124,"end":492.237,"text":"那現在有查出來說這些失聯人到底在哪裡也不知道了嗎?還有繼續再查嗎?有繼續再查 這個是專案再查的那有查出有什麼成果出來嗎?有查到什麼嗎?"},{"start":493.65,"end":512.082,"text":"如果是查到了這個失聯的這個入境人士的話我們跟捷爾其他情報單位會做一個清詢到底他在台這一段時間失聯這一段時間他的一個行動動態都會做一個清查這個我覺得要查下去因為你也不曉得這1300多個到底現在是在哪裡"},{"start":513.022,"end":524.893,"text":"他是在台灣哪裡 做什麼樣的事情到底是不是負有任務這其實是國安局都要去查清楚對 這個是我們的任務謝謝部長 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專委好專委剛才翁曉琳委員詢問您就是包含罷免謝國良跟韓國瑜當時中選會的告發是在罷免之後告發對不對是好 那我請問這幾年還有包含罷免陳柏為委員是不是也是在選後告發這個我要回去查一下我知道是選後告發"},{"start":42.126,"end":64.264,"text":"還有我們過去公投案也是要連署喔是早交公投是不是在選後告發是是在選後告發所以我們過去的公投案都是在選後告發是嗎目前看到的是都是好那請問一下罷免黃捷委員是在這個連署的時候告發還是選後告發"},{"start":66.958,"end":82.167,"text":"這一個也是在選後都是在選後告發所以現在事實證明就是過去中選會確實會告發所謂的偽造案件死人連署但是都是等到選後再做告發"},{"start":83.067,"end":91.412,"text":"所以看起來這次大罷免很不一樣為了要大罷免大成功對國民黨的委員能夠成功為了讓民進黨的委員可以干擾所以出現了大護航所以我想中選會這邊你現在有沒有提出說"},{"start":101.878,"end":121.413,"text":"除了在這次罷免之外 之前不管是總統連署 或者是共和連署 或者是罷免民意代表連署有像今年一樣是在連署期間在告發的案例嗎 有嗎沒有 所以今年是特例 為什麼"},{"start":123.474,"end":149.993,"text":"因為我知道剛才你也想說你沒辦法回答對不對因為決策不在你嘛是不是決策在你嗎包委員這個也不是決策的問題啦因為畢竟這是一個階段性的結果而且今年的所以過去都是在選後包含公投也是在投票之後但是今年非常的特殊所以你告訴我今年沒有其他的任何考量我想"},{"start":150.874,"end":160.638,"text":"大家就很難很難不做質疑了吧因為時間的關係 我不要耽誤下面的委員來 那個您可以請會 我請我們法務部長委員好好 請秀出來 部長好我手上拿著一個這是聯合國在今年4月的一個報告"},{"start":180.002,"end":199.577,"text":"這個報告呢 就是針對這個東南亞出現了詐騙中心 地下金融還有一些非法網路市場的全球影響部長知道這份報告嗎這個我不清楚你不知道這份報告那 我不曉得現場有沒有法務部的同仁你們知道這份報告嗎連這份報告都不清楚是不是"},{"start":205.263,"end":223.661,"text":"聯合國四月份的報告多次提及台灣它的重點是在東南亞市場我們都知道東南亞有豬仔人肉販子有詐騙有那個細簽那它在裡面講到一些對於全球的影響這份報告速速度的"},{"start":226.784,"end":242.82,"text":"提及到台灣至少有四個案件一個叫做VV集團這個VV集團他提到這個呢集團在操控這種包含惡意散播軟體以及非法賭博平台20年前在台灣創立再來"},{"start":247.062,"end":252.984,"text":"提到一位這裡面的詐騙他當然他在跟台灣稍微遠了一點但他說他是來自台灣的犯罪集團出生在台灣只是後來呢他規劃到厄瓜多的這個商人他們涉及把馬來人在馬來西亞把人賣到秘魯然後強迫他們從事跨國網路詐騙好再來這個就跟台灣非常有關係的"},{"start":273.613,"end":294.319,"text":"他提到新加坡有一個史上最大洗錢案查扣了新幣30億大概約台幣700多億台幣主謀及兩個共犯都在台灣設立金融科技公司叫做縱網數碼科技提供技術支援再來"},{"start":295.519,"end":318.989,"text":"他說有一個叫BG2的集團跟梅根混合基地犯罪網然後呢合作然後這裡面呢也在而且這個BG2的高層呢他在台灣的通緝名單上而且BG2曾在台灣設立非法賭博以及雲端科技公司這真的是台灣之光嘛聯合國的報告"},{"start":323.639,"end":338.357,"text":"裡面數度提及台灣不管在台灣的公司或者是出生在台灣我剛剛講那個案子是遠一點他後來規劃到其他國籍但是幾個都是在台灣有設立公司甚至在台灣的通緝名單上"},{"start":339.138,"end":341.54,"text":"我們一直在說我們要查詐騙 查走私查這些把台灣人賣到柬埔寨 緬甸 泰國這些國家我們要加強辦案 結果一個聯合國四月份提出來報告我們部長都不知道 部長你好忙啊忙著在找查罷免案 是吧"},{"start":365.575,"end":390.993,"text":"忙著在查連署案是吧我們多次提及包含當時在預算我們都願意司法法制委員會完全的支持法務部的預算為什麼呢 我們都覺得檢察官很辛苦因為台灣的詐騙實在太多了還有國際的詐騙然後我們願意在預算上支持我們的檢察官因為我們都知道他們的案件辦得非常非常多"},{"start":391.733,"end":407.037,"text":"就讓我們發現原來我們的檢察官有很多時間來作為政治的工具打擊罷免 打擊罷免國民黨立委的工具請問一下部長為什麼連這個報告你都不知道 請問一下你在忙什麼 忙在立法院訓導"},{"start":415.062,"end":420.586,"text":"所以是因為你到立法院尋答來再講還在忙什麼你到立法院尋答所以連聯合國的公開報告你都沒看到再講一遍啊好會講來再來你在忙什麼在講你在忙什麼委員你提供我們會回去好好的把它收集起來我們好好的處理"},{"start":434.258,"end":449.346,"text":"你知道我本來接下來我認為你知道然後呢我要接下來問你這幾個案子我們有沒有偵辦我們有沒有國際合作結果一問三不知所以因為你在立法院來做報告所以你不知道這些嚴重的事情"},{"start":451.727,"end":475.938,"text":"審查本來就是我們保護部非常重要的一個政策那我們的成果績效我們都有呈現出來最近媒體 呈現什麼 一萬三不知北檢 北檢那忙著政治的那些 忙著政治的東西 你也承認就以台北地檢署 這個證據你講 我必須要澄清喔台北地檢署最近也辦了一個案件也查獲了炸團 有幾千人的炸團那個金額高達將近兩百億"},{"start":477.819,"end":481.983,"text":"這個最近剛起訴了這個我剛才講過我們檢察官不管檢警調來偵查詐騙我們全力支持我們全力肯定但是我們詐騙案這麼多這麼多然後這個事情你既然不知道好再來再來我看你到底在忙什麼我再來問喔"},{"start":504.383,"end":516.329,"text":"您剛說不要去問個案問題一 我們這一次就是台北市黨部主委黃呂錦如在星期六的清晨她無保請回"},{"start":518.36,"end":539.929,"text":"星期二 淨檢天下人稱號稱淨檢就立刻可以把檢察官的相關資料做了詳細的報告如跟過去柯文哲案件如出一徹這個過去在司法法制委員會也有很多的專案報告質詢"},{"start":541.169,"end":562.182,"text":"也就是說我們檢察官有關於資料外洩給特定媒體使得進週刊在天下人號稱禁檢所以馬上星期六吳寶請回當然還有兩個人在裡面星期二媒體就報導這麼多篇所以"},{"start":563.763,"end":579.613,"text":"這個是個案但是檢察官洩漏資訊 洩漏資料給相關媒體已經不是個案了不是單一案例所以部長請說明這個委員有沒有仔細看這個"},{"start":581.213,"end":600.68,"text":"這個這一份的一個報導他這個消息的來源要講說本刊調查一名交保的青年軍在偵訊後向友人大發牢騷強調只是被掛名原本他相信等等等這是從那邊來的另外還有熟悉青年軍的人士轉述等等等"},{"start":601.36,"end":606.265,"text":"所以這個媒體來 你給我 你不用斷章取義裡面特別提到裡面提到說裡面的內容 它裡面要講得非常詳細它比如說它說裡面的內容因為跟國民黨的黨員名冊大量相同"},{"start":621.358,"end":627.16,"text":"然後呢甚至什麼錯誤的地址也跟黨員名冊上下可能有錯字等等請問一下你認為這是青年軍所透露的嗎你認為這是跟青年軍所熟悉的人所透露的嗎他們很想自己被關進去是不是所以部長你不要在這邊給我斷章取義我不是沒有看過所以我講了"},{"start":647.108,"end":651.471,"text":"這樣的不是個案問題 你很喜歡在這邊講個案問題但是一個 一個 再加一個的個案很多個個案就變通案你們檢察官特意洩露消息給特定媒體給特定媒體 怎麼會沒有怎麼會沒有柯文哲案子裡面有多少有 包括說什麼柯文哲的檔案裡面有一個什麼清涼罩"},{"start":674.964,"end":679.245,"text":"有沒有 這也是進檢所先透露出來的有沒有 最後真的有難道是靠著告訴全世界大家說我的檔案裡面有一個清涼照是他自己透露出來的嗎你要騙三歲小孩嗎 部長你當我們大家是三歲小孩嗎我要告訴部長的就是在整個的司法的公信裡一個又一個的案子"},{"start":700.652,"end":708.619,"text":"因為你們透露消息給特定媒體早就微信蕩然無存你還要讓大家尊重嗎所以我希望你到這個部長應該讓檢調能夠更有公信力更有微信力"},{"start":717.045,"end":745.877,"text":"讓我們認為司法公正可以在社會裡面它的這個司法公正度不要那麼低如果今天崇尚大廈甘於作為政治的打手其結果你是賠上了所有司法人的努力你剛才講說北檢真辦詐騙案子破獲重大的詐騙集團我們予以肯定但是這些人的努力被你們這些人事實上只是被打折扣而已"},{"start":746.357,"end":752.2,"text":"所以拜託我真的不想講什麼風骨很多人說要跟你們講風骨我說連骨頭都沒有還講什麼風骨所以有關於洩密有關於洩密的問題請你能夠嚴正一待這已經不是個案這個我們絕對沒有洩密你查都沒有查你就絕對沒有洩密我們部長連查都沒有查"},{"start":768.889,"end":772.072,"text":"比方說一般來講 我至少要回去了解你查都不查 沒有洩密所以你知道告訴什麼你現在要告訴 傳話給這個檢察官盡量洩嘛 我不但不會查 我還會在這邊幫你扛你連查都沒有 你有查嗎你查了嗎 這個案子你查了嗎"},{"start":785.166,"end":788.548,"text":"查過了嗎你查過了沒有你查過了沒有所以你沒有查過你竟敢就講沒有洩密這是司法人的態度嗎法院部長連查都不要查就說沒有洩密這代表所以難怪檢察官敢為所欲為"},{"start":807.04,"end":819.706,"text":"你們真的把司法人司法威信通通掃蕩在地下真的非常非常可恥讓這些兢兢業業在司法裡面兢兢業業辦案的人都蒙羞啦好 以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":959,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時52分）謝謝主席。我先請中選會法政處專門委員，中選會今天只有來一位嘛，對不對？","專委好。剛才翁曉玲委員詢問您包含罷免謝國樑跟韓國瑜，當時中選會的告發是在罷免之後告發，對不對？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我請問這幾年還有包含罷免陳柏惟委員，是不是也是在選後告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：這個我要回去查一下。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我知道是選後告發。還有過去公投案也是要連署。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：藻礁公投是不是在選後告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告，是。"],["王委員鴻薇：是在選後告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以過去的公投案都是在選後告發，是嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：目前看到的是這樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：都是，好！那請問一下罷免黃捷委員，是在連署的時候告發，還是選後告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：這一個也是在選後。"],["王委員鴻薇：都是在選後告發。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以現在事實證明，過去中選會確實會告發所謂的偽造案件、死人連署，但是都是等到選後再告發，看起來這次大罷免很不一樣，為了要大罷免大成功，對國民黨的委員能夠成功，為了讓民進黨的委員可以干擾，所以出現了大護航。我想中選會現在有沒有提出，除了在這次罷免之外，之前不管是總統連署，或者是高雄連署，或者是罷免民意代表連署，有像今年一樣是在連署期間告發的案例嗎？有嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告，沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，所以今年是特例，為什麼？我知道，剛才你也講你沒辦法回答，對不對？因為決策不在你嘛，是不是？決策在你嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，這個也不是決策的問題啦，因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：當然有決策的問題啊。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：畢竟這是一個階段性的結果，而且今年的罷免案……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去都是在選後，包含公投也是在投票之後，但是今年非常的特殊。你告訴我今年沒有其他的任何考量，我想大家就很難很難不質疑了吧？","好，因為時間的關係，我不要耽誤下面的委員，您可以請回。我請法務部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。我手上拿著的是聯合國在今年4月的一個報告，這個報告就是針對東南亞出現詐騙中心、地下金融，還有一些非法網路市場的全球影響。部長知道這份報告嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：你不知道這份報告。我不曉得現場有沒有法務部的同仁，你們知道這份報告嗎？連這份報告都不清楚，是不是？聯合國4月份的報告，多次提及臺灣，它的重點是在東南亞市場，我們都知道東南亞有豬仔、人肉販子，有詐騙、有洗錢，它在裡面講到一些對於全球的影響。","這份報告數度提及臺灣，至少有4個案件。一個叫做VV集團，報告提到這個VV集團操控，包含惡意散播軟體以及非法賭博平台，20年前在臺灣創立。再來，裡面提到一位詐騙，他跟臺灣稍微遠了一點，但他說他是來自臺灣的犯罪集團，出生在臺灣，只是後來他歸化為厄瓜多商人，他們涉及把馬來人從馬來西亞賣到秘魯，然後強迫他們從事跨國網路詐騙。再來這個就跟臺灣非常有關係的，提到新加坡有一個史上最大洗錢案，查扣了新幣30億元，約合臺幣七百多億元，主謀及兩個共犯都在臺灣設立金融科技公司，叫做縱網數碼科技，提供技術支援。再來，有一個叫BG2的集團，跟湄公河基地犯罪網合作，而且BG2的高層也在臺灣的通緝名單上，而且BG2曾在臺灣設立非法賭博以及雲端科技公司。這真的是臺灣之光啊！","聯合國的報告裡面數度提及臺灣，不管在臺灣的公司或者是出生在臺灣，我剛講那個案子是遠一點，他後來歸化到其他國籍，但是幾個都是在臺灣有設立公司，甚至在臺灣的通緝名單上！我們一再說要查詐騙、查走私，查這些把臺灣人賣到柬埔寨、緬甸、泰國這些國家，我們要加強辦案，結果一個聯合國4月份提出來的報告，我們的部長都不知道，部長你好忙啊！忙著在查罷免案，是吧？忙著在查連署案，是吧？","我們多次提及，包含當時在審預算，司法及法制委員會都願意完全支持法務部的預算，為什麼呢？我們都覺得檢察官很辛苦，因為臺灣的詐騙實在太多了！還有國際的詐騙。我們願意在預算上支持檢察官，因為我們都知道他們的案件辦得非常非常多。結果我們發現，原來檢察官有很多時間來作為政治的工具，打擊罷免……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我反對！我們不是政治工具……"],["王委員鴻薇：打擊罷免國民黨立委的工具！請問部長，為什麼連這個報告你都不知道？請問一下，你在忙什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：忙在立法院詢答，準備需要時間。"],["王委員鴻薇：喔，所以是因為你到立法院詢答，來，再講，還在忙什麼？你到立法院詢答，所以連聯合國的公開報告都沒看到？再講一遍啊！好會講，來、來、再來，在忙什麼？再講，你在忙什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員提供這個報告，我們會回去好好的蒐集起來，我們好好來處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：我本來認為你知道。接下來我問你，這幾個案子我們有沒有偵辦？我們有沒有進行國際合作？結果你一問三不知，你說因為你來立法院報告，所以你不知道這些嚴重的事情！法務部好棒棒啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，懲詐本來就是我們法務部非常重要的一個政策，我們的成果、績效都有呈現出來，最近媒體報導……"],["王委員鴻薇：呈現什麼？一問三不知！"],["鄭部長銘謙：比如說北檢，北檢在忙著政治的那些……"],["王委員鴻薇：忙著政治的東西，你也承認。"],["鄭部長銘謙：就臺北地檢署，這個事情委員講了，我必須要澄清，臺北地檢署最近也辦了一個案件，也查獲了詐團，有幾千人的詐團，那個金額高達將近200億，這個最近剛起訴了，而且……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個我剛才講過，檢察官不管是檢警調，要來偵查詐騙，我們全力支持，我們全力肯定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官辦出這麼重大的案件，應該給我們鼓勵。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我們的詐騙案這麼多，然後這個事情你竟然不知道！"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢調都非常忙，全力在偵辦，外界說我們檢調都在做政治性的辦案，我這點必須要澄清。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我再請教你，我看你到底在忙什麼。您剛才說不要問個案問題，這一次臺北市黨部主委黃呂錦茹在星期六清晨無保請回，星期二號稱「鏡檢」的鏡週刊立刻可以把檢察官的相關資料詳細報告，跟過去柯文哲案件如出一轍，這個過去在司法及法制委員會也有很多的專案報告質詢，也就是檢察官把資料外洩給特定媒體，使得鏡週刊被天下人號稱「鏡檢」，馬上可以在星期六無保請回，當然還有兩個人在裡面，星期二媒體就報導這麼多篇。所以這個是個案，但是檢察官洩漏資訊，洩漏資料給相關媒體，已經不是個案了，不是單一案例。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個可以說明嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：可以，部長請說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員有沒有仔細看這個報導？它這個消息的來源是講：本刊調查，一名被交保的青年軍在偵訊後向友人大發牢騷，強調只是「被掛名」，原本他相信等等等，這是從那邊來的。另外，還有熟悉青年軍的人事轉述等等等，所以這個媒體交代消息來源……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不用斷章取義喔，裡面特別提到，其實裡面的內容講得非常詳細，比如裡面內容有跟國民黨的黨員名冊大量相同，甚至錯誤的地址也跟黨員名冊上下可能有錯字等等。請問一下，你認為這是青年軍所透露的嗎？你認為這是跟青年軍熟悉的人所透露的嗎？他們很想自己被關進去是不是？部長，你不要在這邊給我斷章取義，我不是沒有看過。所以我講了，這樣並不是個案問題，你很喜歡在這邊講個案問題，但是一個再加一個的個案，很多個個案就變通案，你們檢察官特意洩露消息給特定媒體……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有，絕對沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：給特定媒體，怎麼會沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有這回事。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會沒有？柯文哲的案子裡面有多少是有的？包括說柯文哲的檔案裡面有一個什麼清涼照，有沒有？這也是「鏡檢」先透露出來的，有沒有？最後真的有，難道是柯文哲告訴全世界，說他的檔案裡面有一個清涼照，是他自己透露出來的嗎？你要騙三歲小孩嗎？部長，你當我們大家是三歲小孩嗎？我要告訴部長的就是，對於整個司法的公信力，一個又一個的案子，因為你們透露消息給特定媒體，威信早就蕩然無存，你還要讓大家尊重嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：絕對沒有什麼透露給特定媒體。"],["王委員鴻薇：我希望你身為部長，應該讓檢調能夠更有公信力，更有威信力，讓司法公正度在社會裡面不要那麼低。如果今天從上到下甘於作為政治的打手，其結果你是陪葬了所有司法人的努力。你剛才講北檢偵辦詐騙案，破獲重大的詐騙集團，我們予以肯定，但是這些人的努力，因為你們這些人，事實上就是被打了折扣。所以我要拜託，我真的不想講什麼風骨，很多人說要跟你們講風骨，我說連骨頭都沒有，還講什麼風骨？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們不接受。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以有關於洩密的問題，請你能夠嚴陣以待，這已經不是個案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們絕對沒有洩密，我相信……"],["王委員鴻薇：你查都沒有查，你就覺得沒有洩密？我們部長連查都沒有查。一般來講都會說至少要回去瞭解，你查都不查就說沒有洩密，所以你是要告訴什麼？你現在是傳話給檢察官，就儘量洩吧，你不但不會查，還會在這邊幫他們扛。你連查都沒有，你有查嗎？你查了嗎？這個案子你查了嗎？查過了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是鏡檢……"],["王委員鴻薇：你查過了沒有？你查過了沒有？你查過了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他沒有說……"],["王委員鴻薇：你沒有查過竟敢就講沒有洩密，這是司法人的態度嗎？法務部長連查都不要查，就說沒有洩密，所以難怪檢察官敢為所欲為，你們真的把司法人、司法威信統統掃到地下……"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官是依照法定程序依法偵辦，沒有為所欲為。"],["王委員鴻薇：真的非常非常可恥，讓這些在司法界裡面兢兢業業辦案的人都蒙羞啦！好，以上。"],["主席：下一位請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160537","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160537","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc093593049b7f250c47fe8c6252e35fc4aca7a32b531de3e808ecc81a7d7c80c955ea18f28b6918d91.mp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汽車還有半導體跟藥品等等重點應該是說台灣"},{"start":44.4,"end":52.293,"text":"對的出口是否對美發生逆差或是有國安的影響嗎對不對但是今天看到是貴屬的報告當中是以美國的藥品醫療器材對台灣出口的影響作為因應措施請問為什麼重點是放在"},{"start":59.7,"end":76.993,"text":"跟委員報告就是因為經過我們了解事實上我們國內的藥廠出口到美國它的跟相對於美國出口到台灣它是相對我們是以進口為主那剛剛有簡單報告以去年的調查為例那我國藥廠出口到美國的金額大約是3億美元"},{"start":77.793,"end":88.799,"text":"佔我們國家藥品出口的比例大概到37%但是我們從美國進口的藥品的金額大概達到5億美元大概佔我們所有輸入藥品的金額的10%"},{"start":93.342,"end":117.681,"text":"可是從經濟部的報告卻顯示說美國為台灣藥品的出口最大市場那生技藥品的出口達到出口有達到10億美元這事實上是有差異的那我希望的是說經濟部跟衛福部這邊能夠做一個這個業務上面的一個協調在這邊尤其是未來要準備的是要做出口的這樣子的市場的一個開拓的時候就是非常重要的那我想要請問一下就這個10億美元的"},{"start":119.742,"end":136.946,"text":"生技跟醫藥出口當中是以醫藥醫用藥材跟西藥製造業跟學名藥原料藥跟疫苗試劑等為最大類別請問一下880億的行政院的預算當中衛福部這邊分到多少在食藥署這邊跟委員報告目前我們還在爭取中還在爭取中還在跟行政院這邊爭取跟協調"},{"start":141.618,"end":157.176,"text":"好那再請問一下因為美國既然是我們可以出口的市場當中應該有相當的競爭力也許有像那我們如果說是開拓市場的話事實上有沒有這樣子的開拓到把這樣子現在目前我們對美的輸出把它分證到其他市場的一個需求報告委員我們正在積極的輔導我們相關的藥廠業者可以朝譬如說歐洲的國家"},{"start":161.401,"end":182.59,"text":"因為目前食藥署也是加入很多國際組織所以我們在藥廠的GMP規範上以及我們的管理法規上都跟歐盟是一致那我們在109年也取得歐洲原料藥的第三國清單所以國內的原料藥如果要輸入到歐洲的話是不需要再經過歐洲的茶廠所以這個部分我們會鼓勵國內的藥廠盡量朝歐洲的方向發展好 那這邊我請教應該是經濟部裡面的國際貿易署因為署長"},{"start":191.901,"end":211.21,"text":"好 劉署長您好委員好這個部分因為上週有經濟部的官員來拜訪的時候特別提到說因為上週前幾週的時候郭部長有回應到說我們不管在所謂的產業上面的這樣的多元市場的部分就是以歐盟跟印度還有土耳其為最主要的一個開拓市場這些部分那可是上週的這個來"},{"start":212.791,"end":240.336,"text":"拜訪的時候有官員就提到是說我們這個對歐盟的地方事實上開拓的有困難等等因為很多國家可是事實上歐盟在1995年的時候就形成一個單一市場了這部分進來經濟部裡面的官員裡面還有提到說歐盟還是必須要很多國家去合約談這樣的情況之下你怎麼回應呢如果你剛才也提到說醫藥這邊也是要把快拓到市場到歐盟去的時候那請問你怎麼回應你們怎麼去看待歐盟的市場"},{"start":242.498,"end":272.081,"text":"报告委员欧盟的确它是一个单一的市场那在医药的部分因为其实欧盟其实它有一些管理性的规定那我们针对那些管理性的规定我们基本上都会跟业者来进行一些说明它常常有些那些规定然后我们主要是让业者知道那些的规定是什么因为进入市场在药品跟其他的产品有一个很大的不一样你要进去那个市场要经过它的主管金官的认可才能够进去所以这个部分是非常重要的"},{"start":272.521,"end":296.481,"text":"所以說是醫藥這邊因為跟人體身體健康是有關係所以他有特別的一個程序上面是這樣子好這樣了解了好那另外一部分還有就是在於核心關鍵國家核心關鍵技術在半導體這一部分很重要的是昨天我們當齊凱委員在辦這個公聽會的時候也知道的是說目前在這個關鍵核心技術的這個審查地是在所謂的投資審查署嗎是嗎"},{"start":299.063,"end":315.584,"text":"投資投審司在投審司這部分那這邊我們都已經知道了是威澤家他已經在公開在上個月這個月都已經講到是我們未來的話就是一定要到美國去投資這部分可是這邊的投審司已經講到的是目前"},{"start":316.525,"end":334.113,"text":"台積電還沒有提出的審查報告還沒有提出審查申請案這部分那未來的情況之下如果投審會投審師如果決定如果發現它裡面涉及到我們核心關鍵技術尤其是在高階的部分在研發IC設計設計這部分的時候那難道我們國家會我們的投審師會說NO嗎或是整個這個部分請回答"},{"start":339.475,"end":368.036,"text":"跟委員報告就是未來投審是這邊如果收到台積電的申請因為我們投審會是一個審查平台所以我們會送審除了包括我們自己的產發署之外還包括國科會等等的技術主管機關那我們會尊重技術主管機關的意見好 所以有可能就是到時候台積電就不會去美國嗎是有可能的就是說就是尊重這個國科會上面主管機關的部分在科技上面的審查"},{"start":368.979,"end":379.198,"text":"是有可能嗎這個就是要看那個技術主管機關審查的結果好 那事實上是可能是有可能的因為在還沒有結果審查出來之前的話Yes跟No都有可能嘛好 就這樣子 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":906,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時54分）有請衛福部食品藥物管理署副署長王德原先生。"],["主席：好，請衛福部王副署長。"],["王副署長德原：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：副署長你好。今天討論的主題是美國實施進口產品國安調查對我國產業界之影響及因應之道，根據經濟部的資料顯示，美國已經完成了國安調查，包括鋼鋁、汽車，還有半導體跟藥品等等，重點應該是臺灣的出口是否對美發生逆差或是有國安的影響嘛，對不對？但是今天看到貴署的報告當中是以美國的藥品、醫療器材對臺灣出口的影響作為因應措施，請問為什麼重點是放在這個地方？"],["王副署長德原：跟委員報告，就是因為經過我們了解，事實上我們國內的藥廠出口到美國相對於美國出口到臺灣，我們是以進口為主。簡單報告，以去年的調查為例，我國藥廠出口到美國的金額大約是3億美元，占我們國家藥品出口的比例大概到37%，但是我們從美國進口藥品的金額大概達到5億美元，大概占我們所有輸入藥品金額的10%。"],["劉委員書彬：好，可是經濟部的報告卻顯示美國為臺灣藥品出口最大市場，生技藥品的出口額達到10億美元，事實上是有差異的，我希望經濟部跟衛福部能夠做一個業務上面的協調，尤其未來要準備做出口市場開拓的時候，這是非常重要的。","我想要請問一下，這個10億美元的生技跟醫藥出口當中是以醫用藥材、西藥製造業、學名藥、原料藥跟疫苗試劑等為最大類別，請問一下在880億的行政院預算當中，衛福部食藥署這邊分到多少？"],["王副署長德原：跟委員報告，目前我們還在爭取中。"],["劉委員書彬：還在爭取中？"],["王副署長德原：還在跟行政院爭取跟協調。"],["劉委員書彬：好，再請問一下，因為美國既然是我們可以出口的市場，應該有相當的競爭力，我們如果開拓市場的話，事實上有沒有把目前我們對美的輸出開拓分散到其他市場的需求？"],["王副署長德原：報告委員，我們正在積極輔導相關的藥廠業者可以朝譬如歐洲的國家，因為目前食藥署也加入很多國際組織，所以我們在藥廠的GMP規範以及我們的管理法規上都跟歐盟是一致的，我們在109年也取得歐洲原料藥的第三國清單，所以國內的原料藥如果要輸入到歐洲是不需要再經過歐洲的查廠，這個部分我們會鼓勵國內的藥廠儘量朝歐洲的方向發展。"],["劉委員書彬：好。這邊我要再請教經濟部國際貿易署，劉署長你好。"],["劉署長威廉：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：這個部分上週有經濟部官員來拜訪的時候特別提到，因為前幾週郭部長有回應到，說我們不管在所謂的產業上面這樣多元市場的部分，就是以歐盟、印度還有土耳其為最主要的開拓市場，可是上週來拜訪的時候有官員就提到我們對歐盟事實上開拓有困難什麼等等，說因為有很多國家；可是事實上歐盟在1995年的時候就形成一個單一市場了，竟然經濟部的官員還提到在歐盟還是必須要很多國家去約談，這樣的情況之下你怎麼回應呢？如果你剛才也提到醫藥也是要開拓市場到歐盟的時候，請問你怎麼回應？你們怎麼去看待歐盟的市場？"],["劉署長威廉：報告委員，歐盟的確是一個單一的市場，在醫藥的部分因為歐盟有一些管理性的規定，我們針對那些管理性的規定基本上都會跟業者進行一些說明，常常有一些規定，然後我們主要是讓業者知道那些規定是什麼，因為進入市場在藥品跟其他的產品有一個很大的不一樣，要進去那個市場要先經過主管機關認可才能夠進去，所以這個部分是非常重要的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，所以是醫藥因為跟人體身體健康有關係，所以有特別的程序，是這樣子？"],["劉署長威廉：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這樣了解了。另外一部分就是國家核心關鍵技術在半導體這一部分，很重要的是昨天張啓楷委員在辦公聽會的時候，也說到目前這個關鍵核心技術審查是在所謂的投資審查署嗎？是嗎？"],["劉署長威廉：經濟部投審司。"],["劉委員書彬：在投審司。我們都已經知道魏哲家已經公開在上個月和這個月都講到未來就是一定要到美國去投資，可是投審司講到的是，台積電目前還沒有提出審查申請案，未來的情況，如果投審司這邊發現它裡面涉及到我們國家的核心關鍵技術，尤其是高階、IC設計研發這部分的時候，難道我們的投審司會說No嗎？這個部分請回答。"],["蘇副司長琪彥：跟委員報告，未來投審司如果收到台積電的申請，因為投審會是一個審查平臺，所以我們會送審，除了我們自己的產發署之外，還包括國科會等等技術主管機關，我們會尊重技術主管機關的意見。"],["劉委員書彬：所以有可能台積電到時候就不會去美國嗎？是有可能的嗎？如果尊重國科會、主管機關在科技上面的審查，是有可能的嗎？"],["蘇副司長琪彥：這個就是要看技術主管機關審查的結果。"],["劉委員書彬：好，事實上是有可能的，因為在審查結果還沒有出來之前，Yes跟No都有可能嘛！好，就這樣子，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員。","下一位請何欣純委員發言。我們中午不休息，延長開會時間到詢答結束。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0fbcfae9b60a41f7a7fe8c6252e35fc4a9a3354dc8dbd3a626e815814e389f4405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:45:43 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謝謝主席 主席詹老遠 先進列席的政務機關長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們經濟部郭部長 還有產發署邱署長 以及國貿署的劉署長好 請上訴官員各位好部長好 兩位署長好 今天是要因應著美國的國安調查 但是我想請教一下 請看下一頁"},{"start":39.298,"end":61.343,"text":"副長川普2.0關稅有兩種一個是IEEPA這是國際緊急經濟權利法是總統行使的給台灣跟各國暫緩了90天但是現在我們遇到的是什麼是232條款是屬於美國貿易擴張法第232條款這當中已經開針的已經是汽車跟鋼鐵現在真的調查中的是半導體跟藥品是不是這樣"},{"start":63.702,"end":82.43,"text":"那讀到這邊所示這個232呢就是第四項受調查產品未符合國家安全標準所需要的成長條件主要是這一項嗎是不是部長是的好那我們來看一下那目前台灣已經對蘇美的半導體進行國安調查對台灣有什麼影響"},{"start":85.276,"end":110.495,"text":"我看你們的報告啊對我們的當然這個是將來他關稅的一個依據不是啊 可是我看不出我們的半導體 你看喔台灣對美國出口半導體相關金額是八六八百億啊占全部對美國出口一億四億的將近八成所以半導體 藥品這幾個 汽車 這個都是但是我看我們的結果有受國安調查影響嗎"},{"start":111.637,"end":112.842,"text":"我們有美國會關心我們的半島體蘇美有影響到國安嗎"},{"start":117.352,"end":140.871,"text":"他會調查我們半導體哪些部分跟他國安有影響的對國安有影響的部分應該都是在先進製程先進製程好那我們先進製程應該不會有問題所以我是說你們後來講的有沒有講到先進製程所以我看結果的結論往下看真正要川普關心的會影響到我們的有沒有貨幣操縱台灣是不是被列入貨幣操縱的觀察名單是嗎"},{"start":145.16,"end":159.091,"text":"是嗎是嗎但是我覺得經濟部門管的呢應該是有沒有可能轉運逃避關稅是不是這樣子這點還是習慘天是美國會最關切的是嗎好那我們現在看所以你來看喔在"},{"start":161.274,"end":185.764,"text":"美國明天就要跟韓國協商了 結果韓國搶在新奇就公布了稀產地調查 先置清嘛的確韓國在2024年有將近8億是透過韓國稀產地賣到美國去單單今年的第一劑就已經接近了去年 前三個月接近去年的85%所以韓國是很認真的 包括什麼監視器啦這個韓國很認真的在置清嘛 那台灣呢 台灣有沒有"},{"start":188.988,"end":217.551,"text":"台灣有沒有類似像韓國這樣 對自己做一個整體的調查有沒有去查違規金額啦 貨物流向的地點啦 有沒有去查我們在2月份就已經把這個監測系統建置完成所以有在那查了 跟韓國一樣 要自清對不對好 那我們來看一下但是呢 你看喔 美國在昨天就出手了喔他說對東南亞祭出高關稅防太陽能洗產地現在對美國洗產地 中國透過其他東亞國家洗產地到美國的是哪幾個國家"},{"start":218.809,"end":247.857,"text":"是不是越南?泰國?馬來西亞?柬埔寨?柬埔寨高達克魯多少?3521%欸部長有沒有看過這麼高的所以表示什麼?美國很在意你們東南亞國家幫中國洗產地太陽能板到美國是不是這樣?是沒錯嘛好那我們往下看那請問台灣有沒有類似的情況?有沒有中國的太陽能板透過台灣洗產地到美國去有沒有?"},{"start":249.059,"end":259.689,"text":"應該是沒有因為我們中國的太陽能產品是不能進口的那很好了那有沒有中國的太陽能製品透過越南這些國家的產地到台灣來"},{"start":261.468,"end":275.857,"text":"我們會對這一個部分嚴格的做輸入的規定我們問一下因為實務上可能兩位署長這是應該國貿署還是產貿署管的產貿署還是能源署因為能源署沒有來誰知道來請說能源署有來有來能源署請說有沒有"},{"start":280.706,"end":287.194,"text":"是 這個沒有 我們以前已經處理過了以前有處理過就是中國的光電板透過越南西產地送來台灣我們當時是懷疑 所以我們有建立機制台灣一定要 沒有 現在沒有了你不敢說以前沒有"},{"start":297.512,"end":322.427,"text":"以前我們有防堵措施 然後實施之後我們可以確認我為了這個給你們開過會啦來 部長請回 我們部長來所以其實台灣真的要防止的不是中國或透過台灣的稀產地賣到美國去是台灣成為稀產地的受害者有沒有兩個 一個是供電板 一個呢有沒有中國的汽車零準件透過第三地稀產地來到台灣 賣到台灣來 有沒有有啊有 哪一個"},{"start":323.548,"end":334.933,"text":"這邊有寫嘛中華嘛是不是這些汽車公司那有沒有防堵我們現在已經防堵了已經防堵了 對你們用什麼方式防堵呢哪位署長講一下怎麼防堵"},{"start":336.172,"end":352.314,"text":"報告委員現在的話我們就要求他一定要一定比例的這個國產的這個比例一定比例多少第1年15%那最終要多少到35%的樣子部長我跟你說明一下因為我們在財政會過來了"},{"start":353.902,"end":374.779,"text":"在上週吳秉立委員問了財政部一個問題就是產地的問題對我們國家來講只要這個物品在台灣的價值部分超過35%就算是台灣產的但是美國在對進口來的貨物只要你含有35%的中國零件他就認為是中國的那請問一輛車它的零組件從中國進來的超過35%一半"},{"start":379.503,"end":396.853,"text":"在台灣組裝呢 台灣也加了一半那請問這輛車在台灣是不是認定是台灣產的是嘛 因為35%嘛 它一半嘛可是賣到美國去啟動另外一半是中國產製的 那美國認為它是誰產的這是考古題啊 上個星期無體內委員考過財政委員會了"},{"start":399.039,"end":427.886,"text":"怎麼辦我們會建議這個業者出國前跟美國的客戶溝通那向美國的海關申請原產地的預算但是我不認為台灣有能力從中國進口一半的零組件在台灣加工一半之後再賣到美國去我擔心的是台灣的汽車廠進口超過一半的零組件在台灣從中國進口一半的零組件到台灣加工35%之後就對我們的消費者宣稱這是台灣的車有沒有可能"},{"start":431.997,"end":449.363,"text":"有沒有可能 有嘛 署長都點頭了嘛所以剛剛那個35%我不滿意我希望台灣比照美國如果來到台灣要宣稱台灣出產的車子不只是35%必須台灣加值的也不能有超過35%是中國的 可以嗎"},{"start":450.646,"end":470.52,"text":"我們飛鴻供應鏈是我們現在積極在我們沒有供應給美國我們自己用的車我的意思就是說我們現在在發展的供應鏈我們希望排除中國的供應鏈所以也不能夠至少不能發作專屬方法所以汽車也會比較跟這個電子自動性商品一樣但是這個需要有一點時間"},{"start":472.121,"end":495.756,"text":"所以我們現在35%以後搞不好我們會再進一步往前剛剛邱署長說的是本國價值35%我是說含中國的成分不能多於35%所以你們有一個方法怎麼檢舉稀產地現在貿易法第17條之一有民眾可以檢舉喔檢舉出進口人的產地標示不實會予以獎勵你們的獎勵是什麼你知道嗎獎勵辦法第6條頒給獎勵狀跟獎座"},{"start":501.262,"end":522.535,"text":"這個誰管的貿易法誰管的署長你覺得有人會領獎狀去檢舉人家從中國進口西產地嗎不會那部長你覺得該怎麼做我們大概就是從罰款裡面再撥撥個一半給他太好了完全命中希望你們願意把這個提列罰款作為檢舉人獎金你答應了謝謝我們考慮這樣來做嘛才有誘因嘛"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時45分）謝謝主席。主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請經濟部郭部長、產發署邱署長以及國貿署劉署長。"],["主席：好，請上述官員。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、兩位署長好。今天是要因應著美國的國安調查，但是我想請教一下，部長，川普2.0關稅有兩種，一個是IEEPA，這是國際緊急經濟權力法，是總統行使的，給臺灣跟各國暫緩90天，但是現在我們遇到的是什麼？是232條款，是屬於美國貿易擴張法第232條款，這當中已經開徵的是汽車跟鋼鐵，正在調查中的是半導體跟藥品，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如這邊所示，這個232條款就是第四項「受調查產品為符合國家安全標準所需要之成長條件」，主要是這一項嗎？是不是？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，目前已經對臺灣輸美的半導體進行國安調查，對臺灣有什麼影響？我是看你們的報告啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說。"],["郭部長智輝：對我們來說，這個當然是將來關稅的一個依據。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啊，可是我看不出我們的半導體，你看喔，臺灣對美國出口半導體相關金額是868億，占全部對美國出口1,114億的將近八成，所以半導體、藥品、汽車這幾個都是，但是我看我們的結果，有受國安調查影響嗎？美國會關心我們的半導體輸美有影響到他的國安嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他會調查我們半導體，這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪些部分是跟他國安有影響的？"],["郭部長智輝：對國安有影響的部分應該都是在先進製程。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先進製程喔。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們先進製程應該不會有問題，所以我是說你們後來講的也沒講到先進製程啊，所以往下看我的結論，川普關心的會影響到我們的有沒有貨幣操縱？臺灣是不是被列入貨幣操縱的觀察名單？是嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是觀察名單。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我覺得經濟部管的應該是有沒有可能轉運逃避關稅，是不是這樣子？洗產地這一點還是美國會最關切的，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們往下看。你看，美國明天就要跟韓國協商了，結果韓國搶在星期一就公布了洗產地調查，先自清嘛，的確韓國在2024年有將近8億是透過韓國洗產地賣到美國去，單單今年的第一季前3個月就已經接近去年的85%，所以韓國是很認真的，包括監視器什麼的，韓國很認真的在自清，那臺灣呢？臺灣有沒有？臺灣有沒有類似像韓國這樣對自己做一個整體的調查，有沒有去查違規金額、貨物流向地點，有沒有去查？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在2月份就已經把這個監測系統建置完成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以有在查了，跟韓國一樣要自清，對不對？好，那我們來看一下，但是你看喔，美國在昨天就出手了，他說要對東南亞祭出高關稅防太陽能洗產地，現在中國透過其他東亞國家洗產地到美國都是哪幾個國家？是不是越南、泰國、馬來西亞、柬埔寨？柬埔寨被課了高達多少？3521%！部長有沒有看過這麼高的？所以表示什麼？美國很在意東南亞國家幫中國洗產地把太陽能板輸到美國？是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒錯嘛？好，那我們往下看，請問臺灣有沒有類似的情況？有沒有中國的太陽能板透過臺灣洗產地輸到美國去？有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該是沒有，但是……"],["郭部長智輝：因為中國的太陽能產品是不能進口的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不能進口？很好，那有沒有中國的太陽能製品透過越南這些國家洗了產地到臺灣來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會對這部分嚴格做輸入的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們問一下，因為實務上可能……兩位署長，這是應該國貿署還是產發署管的？是產發署還是能源署？因為能源署沒有來，誰知道？來，請說。"],["郭部長智輝：能源署有來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有來啊？能源署請說，有沒有？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，這個沒有，我們以前已經處理過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以前有過？"],["李代理署長君禮：以前有處理過，大概有1%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是中國的光電板透過越南洗產地送來臺灣？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們當然是懷疑，所以我們有建立機制，他要來臺灣一定要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有嘛？"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有，現在沒有了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在沒有了？你不敢說以前沒有？"],["李代理署長君禮：以前我們有防堵措施，然後實施之後我們可以確認，現在就沒有了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我為了這個跟你們開過會。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長請回。部長來，所以其實臺灣真的要防止的不是中國貨透過臺灣洗產地賣到美國去，而是臺灣成為洗產地的受害者，有沒有兩個？一個是光電板、一個呢……有沒有中國的汽車零組件透過第三地洗產地賣到臺灣來？有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：有啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：有？哪一個？這邊有寫，中華嘛，是不是這些汽車公司？那有沒有防堵？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在已經防堵了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：已經防堵了？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們用什麼方式防堵呢？哪一位署長講一下怎麼防堵。"],["邱署長求慧：報告委員，現在我們就要求他一定要有一定比例的國產比例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一定比例是多少？"],["邱署長求慧：第一年15%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最終要多少？"],["邱署長求慧：到35%的樣子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，來，部長我跟你說明一下，因為我們在財政委員會過來，上週吳秉叡委員問了財政部一個問題，就是產地的問題，對我們國家來講，只要這個物品在臺灣的加值部分超過35%就算是臺灣產的；但是美國對進口的貨物只要含有35%的中國零件就認為是中國的。請問一輛車的零組件從中國進來的超過35%、差不多一半，在臺灣組裝了，臺灣也加了一半，請問這輛車在臺灣是不是認定是臺灣產的？是嘛，因為35%、一半嘛；可是賣到美國去，其中另外一半是中國產製的，那美國認為它是誰產的？這是考古題啊，上個星期吳秉叡委員考過財政委員會了，怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會建議業者出口前跟美國的客戶溝通，向美國海關申請原產地的預審。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我不認為臺灣有能力從中國進口一半的零組件在臺灣加工一半之後再賣到美國去，我擔心的是臺灣的汽車廠從中國進口超過一半的零組件到臺灣，加工35%之後就對我們的消費者宣稱這是臺灣的車，有沒有可能？有沒有可能？有嘛！署長都點頭了嘛！所以剛剛那個35%我不滿意，我希望臺灣比照美國，如果來到臺灣要宣稱是臺灣出產的車子，那麼不只是35%必須是臺灣加值的，也不能有超過35%是中國的，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：非紅供應鏈是我們現在積極在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們沒有供應給美國，我們自己用的車。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我的意思就是我們現在在發展的供應鏈希望排除中國的供應鏈……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以至少不能超過35%。"],["郭部長智輝：所以汽車也會比照跟電子資通訊商品一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["郭部長智輝：但是這個需要有一點時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們現在35%，以後搞不好我們會再繼續往前走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛邱署長說的是本國加值35%，我是說含中國的成分不能多於35%，可以嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個是一定的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你們有一個方法怎麼檢舉洗產地，依現在貿易法第十七條之一，民眾可以檢舉出進口人的產地標示不實，會予以獎勵，你們的獎勵是什麼你知道嗎？獎勵辦法第六條是頒給獎勵狀跟獎座，這個誰管的？貿易法是誰管的？"],["劉署長威廉：貿易署。"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長，你覺得有人會為了領獎狀去檢舉人家從中國進口洗產地嗎？"],["劉署長威廉：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會？那部長覺得該怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概就是從罰款裡面再撥個一半給他。"],["鍾委員佳濱：太好了，完全命中！希望你們研議提列部分罰鍰做為檢舉、獎金，你答應了，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：我們考慮這樣來做，才有誘因嘛！"],["主席：謝謝佳濱委員。","下一位請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160535","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160535","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0d31a107d86439d0d9ac021369aff85ba9a3354dc8dbd3a62bcaa57cddc4a5ad75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:45:16 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國安局是有掌握那有這個情報以後我們交給那個司法警察檢調單位去做後續那個調查的所以我的意思是說你們是提前掌握的是嗎提前 多提前在事件 在4月10號 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請問吳釗燮是不是他同事"},{"start":270.979,"end":283.465,"text":"是的 但是是的 那為什麼我們覺得他偏偏他可以不用受到調查你都說是了啊不是嘛 所以他現在當高官你就可以不用 政風就可以不用查他那我們要你們政風做什麼他當時的時間點就是外交部長我們在追溯的政風就是這個部分跟他現在的職位是沒有關聯性的啊"},{"start":292.861,"end":319.727,"text":"報告委員,那麼有關於這個相關的這個案件事實上擁有完整的調查權的不太...我現在只問政鋒而已嘛我只是問政鋒而已,你不用上來回答嘛是他們自己說他們正在進行調查的所以我才想知道你調查的對象有哪一些人,有沒有包括前外交部長那他剛剛也已經很清楚告訴我們說沒有所以我已經知道了,謝謝你們幾位可以先回那我們請那個顧立雄部長,謝謝"},{"start":329.432,"end":334.495,"text":"是 徐委員好部長好 國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中終於有提高志願役的加級分別有不同的數字戰鬥部隊的加級也有但是舊媒體在3月18號的國防部業務的報告說明裡面本來要送的是五項加級也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電程跟網路戰"},{"start":354.767,"end":370.32,"text":"但是呢現在突然被分開了就3月21號的時候被分開成一波兩波那為什麼要突然分開成兩波呢它的具體原因是什麼我們送行政院的時候本來就是第一波是送志願役跟戰鬥部隊那戰艦館跟電偵網路站現在在人種審議當中"},{"start":374.764,"end":386.251,"text":"OK 所以大概有什麼時候會在第二波的部分會有結果出來我們希望盡快希望盡快應該盡快應該現在還有一些呃呃呈戶的說明我想應該會盡快會出來好那請問第二波呃這個發了之後請問第三波會有嗎還是這個五項就是我們現在目前可能會有的加級之後都沒有沒有第三波有第三波嗎"},{"start":402.468,"end":416.562,"text":"上次委員也有決議說叫我們要檢討上次是反情報的這個部分那我想我們其他都還會再研議但是還沒有一個定案"},{"start":417.583,"end":436.426,"text":"那我要告诉大家的就是说在这个我们提出来这个加薪方案之后当然我是支持给予加急的但后来发现一个问题就是因为只针对志愿役跟战斗部队还有第二波可能会有的这三项就是战航管电阵跟网路战"},{"start":436.866,"end":461.951,"text":"但是呢這反而造成了反而造成了很多基層官兵的陳情因為呢還有很多他們現在是辛苦程度也很高但是呢他們卻沒有被加級的那比方說好了我們給大家看一下像是後勤維保幕僚文官招募跟氣象相關他們都完全沒有任何加級的提升那我的想法是不見得每一個"},{"start":462.851,"end":475.599,"text":"每一個這個職位他的加級都要很高不見得因為呢比方說像可能有一些單位的他的邊線比本來就比較高那可能他我們希望可以在戰鬥部隊這個邊線比較低的地方能夠去加強可是當我們這一次進行了一個全部全面性的這個加級的時候卻漏掉了後勤 維保 幕僚 文官招募跟氣象等等等相關的這些加級的時候會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們"},{"start":491.368,"end":518.519,"text":"甚至使得我們在很多的這個軍人之間互相產生比較互相產生對對方的不滿甚至還會有一種狀況是他的軍階比較高但他領的薪資比較少那請問呢部長要怎麼解決這種狀況以及我剛剛提的這些加級有沒有可能就是說數字多少我覺得呢這個是交由國防部討論的但是完全沒有加級這件事情是會讓這些人喊醒的"},{"start":519.789,"end":532.416,"text":"跟委員報告第一點我們本來加擠的項目本來就有20我了解有20幾種的加擠並不是說所有的這些都沒有加擠我們要新增任何的加擠要"},{"start":540.42,"end":560.465,"text":"有很多的考量的因素因為不是說今天我們增加了戰隊部隊加緊然後其他人也說那我也要加緊對啊 可是大家就會說那我後勤不重要嗎我幕僚不重要 威保不重要嗎招募不重要嗎我平常我漢光的時候都跟大家一起在努力啊那為什麼就只有他們有加我們沒有加呢"},{"start":560.805,"end":586.681,"text":"我們也沒有說我們一定要加很多但是這次國防部在這整次的重大調整薪資案裡面加擠案裡面你們是不是都不重視我們這是我們聽到非常非常多的基層官兵在質疑國防部的事情而且它造成了很多就是呢戰鬥部隊然後呢跟這個一些比如說後勤幕僚等等的一些紛爭那這樣子完全不利於團結我們的軍心啊"},{"start":587.783,"end":609.368,"text":"跟委員報告 你有看到我們志願役的加級有那志願役加級就是適用於全體的人員而且我們這個在做志願役加級的時候我們還特別照顧基層的官兵所以如果要這樣子 那降級也可以說那我的志願役加級為什麼只剩三千塊錢"},{"start":610.526,"end":635.031,"text":"那所以我想我們始終會有一條線這條線就是在於說我們要維持住我們的優質的國軍人才所以那後勤維保幕僚他們因為戰鬥部隊有額外再加嘛除了志願役之外額外再加嘛那他們就問說那所以後勤維保幕僚他們沒有戰鬥部隊的人員據我們的了解已經佔比例超過百分之五十幾到"},{"start":635.931,"end":663.245,"text":"那另外50%的人他就會覺得你們都不關心他們嗎沒有我剛剛也講過了我們還有其他的很多種的加級我這本來就知道啊但問題是說新增的部分因為你新增你說志願役的部分他三個都有嘛那但是問題是說你針對戰鬥部隊你還額外50%的人對不對你額外你給他加級而且加級比較多嘛那這些我現在列出來這些是完全沒有在網上做加級嘛"},{"start":664.065,"end":683.213,"text":"所以它造成一個問題你們真的要去想一想而且你們要去基層問一下這個軍人就是說他們現在有出現就是大家互看不順眼的狀況就覺得為什麼你有啊我沒有是不是國是不是國防部長都不重視我們尤其在後勤這個部分其實討論跟議論私下是非常多的"},{"start":683.573,"end":711.433,"text":"所以这是部长要给这些基层的国军交代的问题这个我是把我们所收到的这些名义来跟部长去做反应因为非常非常多我们也随时会注意这一点不过跟委员报告过去即使我们没有挑战战斗部的价值也有二十几种价值那如果每一个人都互相来比较的话我知道但他就是会互相比较嘛哪有人公司里面薪水不互相比较的呢那国防部的立场就是要有一个整体的思维"},{"start":711.613,"end":726.202,"text":"是整體的思維在裡面比如說你可能覺得這一些戰鬥部隊他比較辛苦所以你給他加了比較多的那可能呢他們在後續的像後勤幕僚等等的這一些沒有加目前沒有增加加給的部分那你也可以加少一點啊這是誠意的問題啊"},{"start":728.243,"end":739.432,"text":"就是這次整個大規模的加急的時候你完全忽視了他們導致他們心理不平衡的問題所以布朗沒關係我只想告訴你說我現在是把基層軍官基層士兵他們的這個反應給我們的陳情反應給你因為人數非常多所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽一聽基層的意見再想一想加急的錢多還是少我在這裡完全尊重國防部的決定"},{"start":756.525,"end":762.335,"text":"但是當大家都在新增的時候那這一群人他完全沒有被新增到那對於整體國軍的這個氣勢跟團結來說呢是有不利的狀況的以上說明謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時45分）謝謝主席。先請外交部政次、政風處和國安局副局長，好嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問副局長，關於何仁傑是共諜這件事情，你們是什麼時候掌握的？"],["陳次長明祺：請問委員是要問副局長還是要問……"],["徐委員巧芯：國安會副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：這個案件國安局是有掌握，獲得這個情報以後，我們是交給司法警察，由檢調單位去做後續的調查偵辦。"],["徐委員巧芯：本席的意思是說，你們有提前掌握，是嗎？提前多久？4月10日收網，你們是多久以前掌握？"],["黃副局長明昭：關於時間點等相關細節，不方便在這邊說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：其實本席4月8日就提出了，外交部的何仁傑涉及共諜的案子，但是當時國安局死不承認，只把焦點放在本席可能誤植的照片上面。但是何仁傑確有其人，而且他的層級還相當高，他洩漏和販賣給中共的機密，可能大於我們所想。我們質詢的時候，本席覺得國安局草草帶過，如果今天不是本席提出這個問題，就是為什麼黃取榮已經被公布，這是何仁傑的上線，他的第一條線已經全部公開，但是對第二條線的何仁傑卻毫無動作，或許這個事件會不了了之，如果國安局有提早掌握，可是卻完全沒有動作，這是本席不能接受的。","再來，本席要問一下外交部的政風處，因為你們現在正在調查嘛！本席問過很多次了，你們是什麼時候開始進行調查？"],["韓公使健豪：我們是在4月12日（禮拜六）週末接到部長辦公室主任的指示。"],["徐委員巧芯：4月12日開始調查，調查的方向呢？有包含前外交部長吳釗燮嗎？因為他是這裡面的關鍵人物。"],["韓公使健豪：因為總統府也有政風室，所以這個部分我們必須要先……"],["徐委員巧芯：不對！不對！他當時是外交部長，不是國安會秘書長。"],["韓公使健豪：我知道，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：何仁傑販售機密資料給中共，是在吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候，所以如果政風要調查的話，當然是針對當時的處境，而不是現在。吳釗燮是當時的外交部長，也是何仁傑的重要關係人，政風處不打算針對當時的外交部長吳釗燮進行調查嗎？政風處沒有這樣的打算嗎？"],["韓公使健豪：因為吳秘書長現職是國安會秘書長，總統府本身就有政風室。"],["徐委員巧芯：但這件事不是在他擔任國安會秘書長的時候發生的啊！國安會調查國安會的部分，本席現在問的是外交部的部分，國安會今天又沒有來備詢。因為他有擔任國安會秘書長，也有擔任外交部部長啊！你都說你們啟動政風調查了，卻不去查核當時的外交部長，也就是何仁傑的重要關係人。","他幫當時的外交部長謄寫相關行程資料，甚至有可能看過我們和駐美代表處的相關文件，或是把他經手過的公文販賣出去，你們不知道他拍了多少東西，結果政風處調查的時候，不用去調查當時的外交部長吳釗燮嗎？最後問你一次。"],["韓公使健豪：不是，因為這個部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席覺得這個問題很簡單嘛！就是政風進行調查時，你們要調查哪些人？"],["韓公使健豪：我們調查的人員，主要就是當時曾經在部長機要室和何仁傑共事過的同事。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問吳釗燮是不是他的同事？"],["韓公使健豪：是的。但是因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：是的！為什麼偏偏他可以不用受到調查？你都說是啊！"],["韓公使健豪：因為吳釗燮現在是國安會秘書長，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！所以他現在擔任高官，政風就可以不用查他？那要政風做什麼？"],["韓公使健豪：不是。是……"],["徐委員巧芯：當時的時間點，他就是外交部長，我們要追溯的政風調查就是這個部分，和他現在的職位沒有關聯性啊！"],["陳次長明祺：有關這個案件，事實上擁有完整調查權的並不是政風。"],["徐委員巧芯：本席現在只問政風的部分而已嘛！"],["陳次長明祺：我們政風調查一定……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席是問政風，你不用上來回答。是他們自己說正在進行調查，所以本席才想知道調查的對象有哪些人，有沒有包括前外交部長？他剛剛也很清楚的告訴我們，沒有，所以本席已經知道了。謝謝幾位，你們可以先回座。請顧立雄部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。國軍薪資在千呼萬喚當中，終於提高志願役的加給，分別是不同的數字，戰鬥部隊也有加給。但是有媒體報導，3月18日的國防部業務報告說明本來是要列5項加給，也就是志願役、戰鬥部隊、戰航管、電偵和網路戰，但是3月21日突然分成第一波、第二波，為什麼突然分成兩波呢？具體原因是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們送行政院的時候，本來就是第一波送志願役和戰鬥部隊，戰航管和電偵、網路戰，現在在人總審議當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。所以什麼時候第二波的部分會有結果？"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望儘快。現在還要做一些呈覆、說明，應該會儘快公布。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問第二波發布之後，會有第三波嗎？還是說這5項就是現在可能會有的加給，之後都沒有了？也沒有第三波。有第三波嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：上次委員也有決議要求我們檢討，就是針對反情報的部分。其他部分還會再研議，還沒有定案。"],["徐委員巧芯：本席要告訴大家的是，在我們提出加薪方案之後，當然，本席支持給予加給，但後來有發現一個問題，因為只針對志願役和戰鬥部隊，還有第二波可能會有的這三項，就是戰航管、電偵和網路戰，結果反而收到很多基層官兵陳情，因為還有很多單位的辛苦程度也很高，但是卻沒有加給，比方後勤、維保、幕僚、文官、招募和氣象，他們完全沒有提升任何加給。","本席的想法是，不見得每一個職位的加給都要很高，比方有些單位的編現比本來就比較高，我們希望可以針對戰鬥部隊編現比較低的地方加強。可是我們這次進行全面性的加給時，卻漏掉後勤、維保、幕僚、文官、招募和氣象等相關單位的加給，這樣會讓他們覺得國防部不重視他們，甚至使得軍人之間互相比較，因而產生不滿。","甚至還會有一種狀況，就是他的軍階比較高，但他領的薪資比較少，請問部長要怎麼解決這種狀況？還有本席剛剛提的這些加給，加給的數字多寡交由國防部討論，但是完全沒有加給的話，會讓這些人寒心。"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，就我的了解，我們加給的項目本來就有二十幾種，並不是都沒有加給。"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！本席知道，本席說的是新增的加給部分。"],["顧部長立雄：我們要新增任何加給會有很多考量因素，不是今天我們增加戰鬥隊部隊的加給，其他人就說我們也要加給，那……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！可是大家就會說，難道後勤不重要嗎？幕僚、維保、招募不重要嗎？平常或漢光演習的時候都是大家一起努力，為什麼只有他們有加，我們沒有加呢？我們也沒有要求一定要加很多，但是這次國防部的調整加給案，你們是不是不重視我們？我們聽到非常多基層官兵質疑國防部，而且造成戰鬥部隊和後勤、幕僚等單位的紛爭，這樣完全不利於團結我們的軍心。"],["顧部長立雄：你有看到志願役加給這個部分，志願役加給就適用於全體人員。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，但因為你是不同的……"],["顧部長立雄：而且我們在做志願役加給的時候，還特別照顧基層官兵，如果是這樣，將級也可以說為什麼我的志願役加給只有增加3,000元？所以我們始終有一條線，這條線就是要維持優質的國軍人才，這一條線……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以後勤、維保、幕僚呢？因為戰鬥部隊除了志願役加給之外，還有額外再加嘛！那他們就問了，為什麼後勤、維保、幕僚沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：戰鬥部隊的人員，據我們了解占比超過百分之五十幾到百方之六十幾。"],["徐委員巧芯：另外50%的人就會覺得你們都不關心他們嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。我剛剛也說過了，我們還有很多種加給，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席知道啊！但問題是新增的部分，因為志願役的部分是三個都有嘛！但問題是針對戰鬥部隊這50%的人，你們還額外給他加給，而且加給比較多嘛！本席現在列出來的這些就是完全沒有提高加給，所以會造成不公平的問題。","你們真的要去想一想，而且你們要去問一下基層軍人，因為現在出現大家互看不順眼的狀況，為什麼你有，但是我沒有？是不是國防部長不重視我們？尤其是後勤這個部分，其實私下的討論和議論是非常多的，部長要給這些基層國軍交代。本席是把收到的民意向部長反映，因為這樣的意見非常多。"],["顧部長立雄：我們也會隨時注意這一點。不過，過去即使我們沒有調整戰鬥部隊的加給，其實也有二十幾種加給，如果每一個人都互相比較的話，那……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席知道啊！但他就是會互相比較嘛！哪有公司裡面的人不會互相比較薪水的呢？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的立場就是要有一個整體的思維。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。比如你們覺得戰鬥部隊可能比較辛苦，所以加給比較多，但後續像後勤、幕僚等目前沒有增加加給的部分，其實你們也可以加少一點啊！這是誠意的問題，這次大規模提升加給，你們卻完全忽視他們，導致他們心理不平衡。所以部長，沒關係，本席只是想反映基層軍士官兵的意見，把他們向我們陳情的內容反映給你。","因為人數非常多，所以我們希望國防部可以回去再聽聽基層的意見，再想一想，加給的錢多或少，本席完全尊重國防部的決定，但是當大家都增加的時候，這群人完全沒有增加，這對整體國軍的氣勢和團結來說是不利的。以上說明，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。","接下來由李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}},{"id":"160534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0a080648d90611ccac0f390e692fb4f249a3354dc8dbd3a6275f58bd84367980c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:45:51 - 11:57:36","影片長度":"00:11:45","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra 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機車貨物稅有助於減少空氣污染"},{"start":174.429,"end":202.837,"text":"難道說你們對於這個淘汰對於機車太舊換新有免除四千元降低四千元貨物稅已經有這麼說了那你們說購買電動機車也免徵貨物稅等等等可是那個次長是這個說污染的部分環境部已經有說空污費了不是嗎所以"},{"start":203.86,"end":228.194,"text":"如果環境部收了空污費我們還針對機車說我收你貨物稅就是為了要減少你這個移動污染源那這個不但我講現在連審計部給你們的這個答覆都很清楚的說這個叫做一頭牛扒兩層皮這個叫做重複課稅不是這樣嗎"},{"start":232.998,"end":251.199,"text":"然後你們說對於太舊換新的部分你們降低了4000元的貨物稅但是對於年輕朋友們手夠足啊他沒有舊的車去太舊啊他剛出入社會他買了"},{"start":253.874,"end":279.827,"text":"這個機車那還要還是一樣要這麼高的貨物稅這非常不公平然後這麼多年來你們也一直都說啊這個機車是那個移動的污染源雖然我覺得這個是環境部該管這個我們財政部一直強調這一點有點撈過界啦不過我也是要必須跟你澄清一下"},{"start":281.573,"end":298.917,"text":"事實上現在在我們政府要求之下我們現在的7騎的燃油機車7騎的燃油機車喔它這個空污排放量的乙金啊跟電動機車幾乎啊"},{"start":301.721,"end":320.954,"text":"沒有高出多少我們就以非甲烷的碳氫化合物跟氮氧化合物這兩項是最大的那麼這兩項在氮氧化合物的部分它只佔每一公里排放的只是0.0094克"},{"start":327.867,"end":352.743,"text":"這個只略高於電動機車的0.0073那另外非甲烷碳氫類這一部分的化合物也是0.0126當然這有高於電動機車0.0002但是幾乎啊幾乎它造成的污染已經不是那麼大而且這個大數字的統計裡面機車"},{"start":356.038,"end":366.39,"text":"他排放PM2.5的部分他只佔總體污染總體所有污染源裡面他只佔4.9%到5.6%4.9%到5.6%還是包括"},{"start":372.817,"end":400.416,"text":"包括過去的二行程機車沒有被汰換的包括四行程機車包括在內所以他如果只佔4.9%到5.6%竟然還比餐飲業餐飲業排放的污染還高過機車其他各個行業我就不一一舉啦這些很多包括電力業包括大貨車"},{"start":403.104,"end":427.182,"text":"包括金屬製造業等等排放的污染都遠高於機車啊那麼我們機車貨物稅之高高達17%竟然也比比它更污染的大貨車大客車都還要高你對大貨車大客車你也增15%而已啊結果對於機車我們特別"},{"start":432.455,"end":459.429,"text":"特別增他特別高而機車現在已經在我們台灣社會不但早就不是奢侈品這是絕大多數家家戶戶所需要的不僅是家戶的交通工具而且是很多民眾他上下班他去工作甚至他的生財工具一樣你沒看那麼多Uber Eats的富邦大"},{"start":461.741,"end":488.539,"text":"這很重要的 送貨的工具啦結果我們對它課這麼高的貨物稅所以我今天才會提案說這一個貨物稅要大幅的降低我講的算客氣的我不是說那一下子就把它取消我說那你至少降到百分之五那這個降到百分之五現在目前你剛剛講的我們財政部我們財政部最重視污染不是嗎"},{"start":489.64,"end":509.145,"text":"我們財政部動不動就是說這個它是移動污染源我剛剛就舉例給你聽啦事實上它並沒有造成那麼大的污染在七期的燃油車的部分那反而如果我們大幅的把機車貨物稅由17%降到5%可以減掉每一部新機車可以減掉7000到12000"},{"start":517.113,"end":541.112,"text":"那大幅的降低民眾購買機車的成本這樣才能夠有效的汰換老舊車輛尤其老舊的部分四行程的還有二行程的還那麼多二行程一部造成的污染等同19部四行程"},{"start":543.059,"end":559.432,"text":"這個試算我不相信你也看過那更何況跟四騎五騎六騎現在已經七騎燃油車相比那那個造成的污染一部老舊機車等於一百部的七騎燃油車"},{"start":560.848,"end":581.904,"text":"好啦那我剛剛為什麼你們一直說那我電動機車已經零貨物稅啦那個部長你也知道現在電動機車的慘況嘛電動機車當然好多原因造成現在這麼慘啦他過去特有的這個品牌在政府保護之下"},{"start":583.266,"end":607.974,"text":"我們要購買電動機車政府的政策那麼有補助大幅度的補助當然有奶水在他當然就做得好現在補助減了你看他現在我們每一年每一年增加87萬輛的機車他竟然衰退到這個佔有率他只佔7.9萬"},{"start":611.659,"end":633.821,"text":"這一個機車的那個市場那當然很多原因啦這個是他們要去加強的部分啦他月費高維修費高他嫌民眾騎得太窮這整種都是原因但是那個最後那個主席抱歉我最後一分鐘跟他講一下今天共同"},{"start":636.587,"end":651.137,"text":"參與的這個經濟部過去那個次長你跟部長講一下他過去說上位政策經濟部訂的但是人家經濟部今天說他今天說啦他今天說這個民眾跟產業都反映汽機車貨物稅造成車價過高所以他說應該適度調降貨物稅"},{"start":658.963,"end":680.984,"text":"可以使國產車、進口車立即降價減輕消費者負擔也使產業復甦這一個部分經濟部你們所謂的上位政策制定者他今天的答覆他今天的報告是這個樣子所以應該要順應我們這幾位立委所提的大幅的降低17%的機車貨物稅降到5%"},{"start":685.128,"end":695.826,"text":"這是我今天提案的要求好 還有很多我下次再跟你談後那個就是不當的貨物稅的其他部分好 謝謝委員的諮詢現在請陳玉珍委員諮詢 請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時46分）謝謝主席。我請李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：次長，其實今天這個議題，我在去年5月的時候就已經在質詢中提過。針對我們國家現在還有許多不合時宜的稅制，包括娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅、保健品關稅，尤其是我們今天要談的機車貨物稅和汽車貨物稅。這些不合時宜的稅制，從去年5月到現在將近一年，財政部誠如我去年對莊部長質詢所說的，我用四個字來形容「抱殘守缺」。沒有針對這些不合時宜的稅制，做應該要做的調整，或者以其他更進一步的，世界各國先進國家所實施的綠色稅制來做替代，要與時俱進，但是我們卻抱殘守缺。","在這一次美國關稅風暴當中，我們總統府也已經正式公開表態，表示我們國家要排除非關稅貿易障礙，以及要符合先進國家世界潮流，排除不應該有的非關稅貿易障礙。非關稅貿易障礙有很多，包括政府不公平的補貼與其他稅負，這些都非常清楚的。而機車貨物稅以及最重要的汽車關稅、汽車貨物稅，這些都是不當的其他稅負。我們統計OECD國家的貨物稅平均稅率大概是在2.6%，而我國卻高達8.2%。針對我今天提案的降低機車與汽車貨物稅來說，過去一年來你們的答復機車貨物稅有助於減少空氣污染，對於機車汰舊換新有減4,000元貨物稅，購買電動機車也免徵貨物稅等等。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["王委員世堅：可是次長，污染的部分，環境部已經有收空污費了不是嗎？所以環境部收了空污費，財政部還針對機車貨物稅，就是為了要減少移動污染源。現在連審計部給你們的答復都很清楚，這叫做一頭牛扒兩層皮，重複課稅，不是這樣嗎？","對於汰舊換新的部分，你們降低了4,000元的貨物稅，但是對於年輕朋友們、首購族，他沒有舊車可換啊！他剛入社會買了機車，還是一樣要繳這麼高的貨物稅，非常不公平。這麼多年來，你們一直說機車是移動污染源，我覺得這個是環境部該管，而財政部一直強調這一點，有點撈過界。","事實上在政府要求之下，現在七期燃油機車的空污排放量已經跟電動機車幾乎沒有高出多少。我們就以兩項空污排放最大的非甲烷碳氫化合物跟氮氧化物為例，在氮氧化物的部分，每公里排放的氮氧化物僅0.0094克，只略高於電動機車的0.0073克。另外，非甲烷碳氫化合物是0.0126克，這有高於電動機車0.0002克，但它造成的污染已經不是那麼大了。而且這個大數據統計，在總體污染源裡面，機車排放PM2.5的部分只占4.9%到5.6%，還包括過去沒有被汰換的二行程機車、四行程機車，所以它只占4.9%到5.6%。餐飲業排放的污染還高過機車，其他各個行業我就不一一列舉了，包括電力業、大貨車、金屬製造業等等排放的污染都遠高於機車。那麼我們對機車課徵高達17%的貨物稅，比對污染更大的大貨車、大客車課徵15%還高，特別徵、特別高，而機車在臺灣社會早就不是奢侈品，這是絕大多數家家戶戶所需要的，不僅是家戶的交通工具，而且是很多民眾的工作工具、生財工具。你看那麼多Uber Eats、foodpanda，這是很重要的送貨工具，結果他們要繳這麼高的貨物稅。所以我今天才提案貨物稅要大幅的降低，我講得已經算客氣的，我不是說一下子就把它取消，至少貨物稅降到5%，你剛剛講的財政部最重視污染，動不動就說它是移動污染源，事實上七期燃油車並沒有造成那麼大的污染。如果大幅把機車貨物稅由17%降到5%，每一部新機車反而可以減掉7,000到1萬2,000元，大幅降低民眾購買機車的成本，這樣才能夠有效的汰換老舊車輛。尤其老舊的四行程、二行程還那麼多，一部二行程造成的污染等同19部四行程，這個試算我不相信你沒看過。更何況跟四期、五期、六期、甚至現在的七期燃油車相比，一部老舊機車造成的污染等於100部的七期燃油車。","你們說電動機車已經零貨物稅，次長也知道現在電動機車的慘況，當然有好多原因造成現在這麼慘，過去特有品牌在政府保護下，購買電動機車政府有大幅度的補助，有奶水在當然就做得好。現在補助減了，每一年增加87萬輛的機車，電動機車竟然衰退到只占7.9萬輛，在機車市場裡當然原因很多，這是它們要去加強的部分，月費高、維修費高、嫌民眾騎得太兇種種原因，但是最後……主席抱歉，我最後一分鐘講一下。今天經濟部也有參與會議，次長你跟部長講一下，過去你們總說經濟部是上位政策的制定者，但今天經濟部也說了，民眾跟產業都反應汽機車貨物稅造成車價過高，所以應該適度調降貨物稅，可以使國產車、進口車立即降價減輕消費者負擔，也使產業復甦。你們所謂的上位政策制定者，經濟部今天的答復是這樣，所以財政部應該要順應我們這幾位立委所提的，17%的汽車貨物稅大幅降低到5%。這是我今天提案的要求，還有很多我下次再跟你談，汽車不當貨物稅的部分。"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：好，謝謝王委員的質詢。","現在請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160533","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160533","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc00e07de40dbe986b9c0f390e692fb4f249a3354dc8dbd3a620e1c0bc9da77201c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:36:44 - 11:45:45","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra 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我這樣要求是不是可以請財政部把更多詳實的資訊公佈出來讓我們不管是我們委員或者是我們國人或者企業主更多的人知道這樣的資訊其實我們現在都已經把這些我們所有在這次對應這個對等關稅的相關的政策包含金融的支持包含租稅的協助還有就是包含行政成本的"},{"start":112.984,"end":134.554,"text":"行政流程的減收我們在官網上面公佈我現在的疑問是說因為你突然間政策改變你突然把利息的減收上限我們的一般企業跟中小企業一下子從500萬降為100中小企業從600降到120萬所以這樣的政策改變你有做過評估嗎"},{"start":136.675,"end":158.454,"text":"這個其實因為我們目前去各區座談好像看起來那個金融支持的部分我們現在提出來的這個方案好像業者並沒有特別覺得說因為你是同步有放寬申請的門檻但是利息的減收上限卻這樣子突然做調整所以有很多的企業主跟我講說為什麼會突然做這樣的一個改變"},{"start":161.316,"end":184.83,"text":"應該是有做過一些評估啦不過我想這部分我們可以再另外看事情我想還是要很審慎資訊要更多元的告訴我們的更多的資訊告訴我們相關的國人不要說只有隨便的我想到什麼就隨便的調整不會不會打算說特別條例通過了然後我們再來追加預算另外這個"},{"start":186.671,"end":199.363,"text":"財政部是否認為對等關稅還在談所以我們我國要調降汽車的關稅局貨物稅還在研擬一切以考量國家的最大利益為主"},{"start":203.571,"end":215.499,"text":"目前我們對等關稅 汽車的關稅跟貨物稅可能是一個談判的重點所以我們是希望讓我們有一個未來談判的籌碼 暫時看看未來的方向"},{"start":221.863,"end":241.8,"text":"我看那個行政院他的一個說明是說我們這個要等到對等關稅談判就剛才市長講的談判的結果了那考量國家的最大利益再來做一個這個決定要不要調降我們汽車的貨物稅是的那所以請問市長所謂最大的利益是什麼"},{"start":243.297,"end":259.814,"text":"最大利益當然就是希望他的對等關稅不要增加讓我們的對等關稅可以降到最低當然這個是大家期待的但是我個人是認為因為如果說我們這個所謂的最大利益當然是我們剛才您講的啦"},{"start":260.194,"end":283.053,"text":"但是我們對於貨物稅尤其是汽車的貨物稅是繼續的課徵25%到30%的這個貨物稅是不管未來關稅的談判結果是怎麼樣那這個貨物稅它的一個要不要調降那你都不去管你認為說這個還是維持25% 30%這個是我們對於我們調降汽車貨物稅的最大利益嗎"},{"start":289.384,"end":300.67,"text":"這是最大利益嗎?是 報告委員 其實基本上我們會配合這次的對等關係的談判然後跟產業主管機關一起來做相關的評估"},{"start":302.602,"end":327.098,"text":"所以其實市長我個人是認為當然您一直提到說這是要把這個汽車的貨物稅要不要調降是我們作為我們關稅談判的一個籌碼是的我們財政部的看法是這樣目前我們是暫時不要就是先把我們可能的方向讓那個先做最後的決定我想我們經貿辦在4月11號才跟美方這個視訊會議完畢談完關稅的問題"},{"start":331.761,"end":359.738,"text":"但是我們又講說我們後續的調降稅制還是要在研擬所以現在我們的狀況是否已經變成說我們的貨物稅的調降在研擬中人民是否只能繼續的繳稅中你一直要等到關稅的談判的結果再來做貨物稅的調降的一個決定所以未來不管你關稅談判的結果如果說"},{"start":361.633,"end":367.823,"text":"不是達到我們預期的一個效果但是我們貨物稅還是那麼高你都完全不思考去調降嗎"},{"start":369.897,"end":387.872,"text":"報委我想這部分我們會列為即使就是將來看看對等關係談判的結果怎麼樣然後我們再看我們怎麼樣做相關對國內民生利益最大的考量優惠的考量市長我給你一個建議給財政部一個建議其實我想現在財政部是認為說調降關稅跟獲利稅應連動處理你們的態度好像是這樣是不是"},{"start":396.963,"end":402.505,"text":"應該是說看看經貿談判因為他們談判的時候care的部分就是它是一個進口汽車會連動的事情因為進口汽車它會有關稅有貨物稅但是其實市長其實我個人認為"},{"start":414.67,"end":428.645,"text":"調整汽車的貨物稅跟零組件的關稅這應該同步規劃這你應該早就在這個關稅談判之前你要做規劃而不是等到美國逼到我們門口你才倉促的要做出反應啊"},{"start":430.629,"end":453.656,"text":"市長你怎麼看因為貨物稅這件事情它本身它是一個國內外不管是進口車或者是國內產製的車它都是一樣的課稅標準所以而且它基本上課稅的影響不是只有針對單一國家它是所有的不管是從美國、日本、歐洲進來的都會一樣課稅的待遇"},{"start":454.176,"end":474.408,"text":"所以在做評估的時候我們還是要做一個比較通盤的演繹跟產業主管機關一起來做相關的考慮市長你講的我們都了解但是我們現在就看到行政院口口聲聲或者是談判代表都說我們要基於我們最大的利益但是是什麼我們人民我們真的都不知道"},{"start":475.288,"end":488.4,"text":"所以我理解國際談判的空間要有彈性的空間但是所有的資訊只有特定的人士才知情啊人民跟國會完全就是被排除的一個狀況"},{"start":491.002,"end":519.945,"text":"所以這樣是不恰當的啦我是認為不恰當的所以我認為說行政院或者財政部你應該定期向國會來報告台美關稅談判的進度說服改革要開誠布公而不是行政的一個完全就是黑箱作業更不是只有跟財團對話市長您認為呢我想基本上我們可以對外說明的時候我們一定會對外說明的"},{"start":520.413,"end":530.344,"text":"是 我覺得還是要把所有的相關的資訊 談判的一個大概的進度還是要跟我們來說明還是要跟國會來做報告以上謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝林志明委員 謝謝接著我們請王世堅委員我們11點50開放會場用餐了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時36分）謝謝主席。我們請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長好。行政院在4月21號公布最新的880億對等關稅支持方案，財政部把一般企業利息減收的上限從500萬降為100萬；中小企業的部分就從600萬降為120萬，當然也有同步放寬申請的門檻，沒錯吧？"],["李次長慶華：對，目前我們核定的方案是這樣。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想請問財政部做這樣改變的主因是什麼？為什麼做這樣的改變？"],["李次長慶華：主要就是希望能夠普及，讓所有的中小企業都可以來普及適用，不要變成是集中在少數的企業。"],["林委員思銘：是，那這樣子做的話，財政部估計對於國內產業的衝擊，可能達多少家的一般企業，還有對中小企業的影響會有幾家？"],["李次長慶華：目前初估還沒有詳細的統計，依照行政院的初估，包含經濟部，我看媒體報導好像是1萬2,000家左右。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我這樣要求，是不是可以請財政部把更多詳實的資訊公布出來，不管是讓委員或者是國人、企業主，讓更多的人知道這樣的資訊。"],["李次長慶華：會，其實我們現在已經把所有在這次對應對等關稅的相關政策，包含金融的支持、租稅的協助，還有包含行政成本、行政流程，我們在官網上面都有公布。"],["林委員思銘：是，這個我們都了解，我現在的疑問是，因為財政部突然間政策改變，突然把利息減收的上限，我們的一般企業一下子從500萬降為100萬；中小企業從600萬降到120萬，所以這樣政策的改變，你有做過評估嗎？"],["李次長慶華：其實我們目前去各區座談，看起來金融支持的部分，我們現在提出來的這個方案，好像業者並沒有特別覺得說需要……"],["林委員思銘：因為你是有同步放寬申請的門檻。"],["李次長慶華：是，我們有放寬申請的門檻。"],["林委員思銘：但是利息的減收上限卻突然做調整，所以有很多的企業主跟我講，為什麼會突然做這樣的改變？"],["李次長慶華：應該是有做過一些評估，不過我想這部分我們可以再另外看……"],["林委員思銘：有做評估，我想還是要很審慎。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["林委員思銘：資訊要更多元，並將更多的資訊告訴國人。"],["李次長慶華：好。"],["林委員思銘：不要只有隨便的想到什麼就隨便的調整，打算特別條例通過了再來追加預算。"],["李次長慶華：不會。"],["林委員思銘：財政部是否認為對等關稅還在談，所以對於我國汽車關稅及貨物稅的調降也還在研擬階段，一切以考量國家的最大利益為主，財政部是否這樣認為？"],["李次長慶華：是，因為我們目前對等關稅，汽車關稅跟貨物稅可能是談判的重點，我們希望保留未來談判的籌碼，看看未來的方向。"],["林委員思銘：現在還在研擬？"],["李次長慶華：對，還在研擬，再來做一個方向。"],["林委員思銘：我看行政院方面的說明是說，我們要等到對等關稅談判的結果……"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["林委員思銘：考量國家的最大利益，再來決定要不要調降汽車的貨物稅？"],["李次長慶華：對，是的。"],["林委員思銘：請問次長，所謂對我國最大的利益是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：最大的利益當然就是希望對等關稅不要增加，讓我們的對等關稅可以降到最低。"],["林委員思銘：當然這個是大家期待的。但我個人認為所謂的最大利益如你講的，但是對於貨物稅，尤其是汽車的貨物稅，不管未來關稅的談判結果如何，你都不去管要不要調降，還是維持課徵25%到30%的汽車貨物稅，這是對於調降汽車貨物稅的最大利益嗎？"],["李次長慶華：基本上我們……"],["林委員思銘：這是最大利益嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是，報告委員，基本上我們會配合這次對等關稅的談判，然後跟產業主管機關一起做相關的評估。"],["林委員思銘：是，其實次長也一直提到，汽車貨物稅要不要調降，是作為我們關稅談判的一個籌碼。"],["李次長慶華：是的。"],["林委員思銘：財政部的看法是這樣。"],["李次長慶華：目前我們暫時不要把可能的方向先做最後的決定。"],["林委員思銘：是，次長，我們經貿辦在4月11號才跟美方談完一場關稅問題的視訊會議，但是我們又講後續的調降稅制還要再研擬，所以現在的狀況是否變成貨物稅的調降仍在研擬中？人民是否只能繼續的繳稅？一直要等到關稅談判的結果，再來做貨物稅調降的決定。所以未來不管關稅談判的結果，如果不是達到我們預期的效果，但我們貨物稅還是那麼高，你都完全不思考去調降嗎？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，這部分我們會看對等關稅談判的結果怎麼樣，然後再做出對國內民生利益最大的考量、優惠的考量，做一個通盤的處理。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我給財政部一個建議。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["林委員思銘：現在財政部是認為調降關稅跟貨物稅應連動處理，你們的態度好像是這樣，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：應該是說看看經貿談判，因為他們談判care的部分，它是一個進口汽車會連動的事情。"],["林委員思銘：你認為有連動關係？"],["李次長慶華：對，因為進口汽車會有關稅、有貨物稅。"],["林委員思銘：其實我個人認為，調整汽車貨物稅跟零組件關稅應該同步規劃，早在關稅談判之前你要先做規劃，而不是等到美國逼到我們門口，才倉促做出反應，次長怎麼看？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，因為貨物稅本身不管是國內外的進口車或國產車，都是一樣的課稅標準。而且基本上課稅的影響不是只有針對單一國家，它是所有不管是從美國、日本、歐洲進來的，都會是一樣的課稅待遇。"],["林委員思銘：是，次長。"],["李次長慶華：所以在評估的時候，我們會做一個通盤的演繹，跟產業主管機關一起來做相關的考慮。"],["林委員思銘：次長，你講的我們都了解。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["林委員思銘：但現在看到行政院或談判代表都說要給予我們最大的利益，但最大利益是什麼？人民真的都不知道。我理解國際談判要有彈性的空間，但是所有的資訊只有特定人士才知情，人民跟國會完全被排除在外，我認為這樣是不恰當的。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["林委員思銘：行政院或財政部應該定期向國會報告臺美關稅談判的進度，稅賦改革要開誠布公，不能只是行政機關內部黑箱作業，更不是只有跟財團對話，您認為呢？"],["李次長慶華：基本上我們可以對外說明的時候，一定會對外說明的。"],["林委員思銘：是。我覺得要把所有的相關資訊與談判的大概進度，要跟國會來做報告。好，以上。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員。","接著我們請王世堅委員。我們11點50開放會場用餐。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0784c6ea33fa3b952c0f390e692fb4f249a3354dc8dbd3a62e1bef8ca561aee985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:29:38 - 11:36:39","影片長度":"00:07:01","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T11:29:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T11:36:39+08:00","duration":421,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.620968749999999,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.207218750000001,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.25284375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.96846875,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.984718750000003,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.86221875,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.76471875,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.50721875,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.35471875,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.37971875,"end":38.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.24846875,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.56034375,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.002843750000004,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.71534375,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.915968750000005,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.20596875000001,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.12971875000001,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.28534375000001,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.76971875000001,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.40659375,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.39284375000001,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.43471875,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.32846875,"end":95.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.58659375,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.07409375,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.73846875,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.52659375000002,"end":153.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.26846875,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.01096875000002,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.45346875,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.27159375000002,"end":164.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.73096875000002,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.45596875,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.72534375,"end":174.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.85159375,"end":177.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.62346875,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.95221875000001,"end":182.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":183.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.00221875000003,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.09846875000002,"end":192.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.04721875,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.11846875,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.62471875,"end":203.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.23534375000003,"end":206.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.10409375,"end":209.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.21346875,"end":210.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.64784375000002,"end":214.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.51221875000002,"end":249.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.44846875000002,"end":246.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.82346875000002,"end":255.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.41784375,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.56096875000003,"end":254.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.29909375000003,"end":255.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.92346875,"end":264.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.15846875,"end":268.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.32721875000004,"end":264.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.00159375000004,"end":280.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.66221875,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.48471875,"end":283.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.71659375,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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產業部這邊會不會支持這項提案"},{"start":45.603,"end":67.332,"text":"當然我們目前已經跟基金部會商同意延長只是目前因為我們也有個行政院的版本現在目前正在行政院審查當中那我們出你的方向是說延長兩年半再加兩年所以我們也希望就是說等院版到立法院的時候我們一起可以跟委員的提案一起討論"},{"start":68.9,"end":84.969,"text":"兩年再加兩年半就四年半如果實質的話跟委員的提案都還有一小段差距我們是提案是希望延長五年對我知道委員的提案是五年我想簡真的這些部分是減輕民眾的負擔因為當民眾在購買選擇家電的時候會將"},{"start":90.332,"end":112.21,"text":"經過經濟部核定的這些節能家電作為考量的一個重要指標這樣子這個政策可以幫助政府達到淨零碳排當然也能夠提高民眾對環保意識的認知民眾在享受政府補助的時候也能夠感受到自己的行為對環境的正面影響"},{"start":113.05,"end":128.904,"text":"同樣隨著市場上節能家電的選擇多樣化選擇更具競爭性這也是鼓勵家電業者產業在節能技術上的創新跟發展可以形成一個良性的市場循環所以財政部這邊一定要大力的支持"},{"start":130.785,"end":156.463,"text":"再請教市長上星期行政院院後記者會我們大家最關心的就是川普川普總統的關稅政策其中官務署副署長有說明汽車零組件還有關稅跟貨物稅是否調降但是都是很空泛的回答我想在談判方面政府應該要聽人民的聲音很多人堅定要將汽車關稅作為談判的籌碼"},{"start":159.185,"end":179.002,"text":"經濟部長郭志輝 卻說如果急速地驟降汽車關稅恐讓台灣汽車產業十多萬人大量失業我必須說 川普的關稅政策影響的是全國的人民 全世界各個產業都被影響 政府應該要有所作為"},{"start":180.143,"end":195.181,"text":"對不對 沒有行業不被影響的所以這種要做的就是幫民眾 幫產業這個找解方嘛如果按照郭部長講的說那我們就雙手一攤什麼都不用做啦對不對 什麼都不用有應用措施啊"},{"start":196.799,"end":199.841,"text":"所以我想請教次長對於郭部長這番話是不是可以解讀說政府目前沒有考量要調降汽車關稅"},{"start":216.469,"end":242.647,"text":"基本上其實我們行政院談判 經貿談判辦公室其實都有一直在針對未來對美關稅談判的部分要考慮哪些應該可以調整或者是說應該可以提出的籌碼當然關稅跟我們的目前看到的貨物稅 汽車貨物稅 汽車關稅也是一個可能的因素這個部分我們財政部的立場就是我們都提供我們相關的數據"},{"start":244.668,"end":268.459,"text":"對啦 對啦讓國行政經貿台辦公室來做調查汽機車的貨物費調降我認為是勢在必行而且現在就最好的時機啊我們之前就常常跟部長討論而且汽車 機車是我們日常生活中不可或缺的它除了是代步工具之外它已經成為必需品了嘛是是剛性需求對不對那我們不是每個城市都像台北市啊"},{"start":269.46,"end":280.933,"text":"有捷運啊這些大眾運輸系統都能夠串連起來其他縣市並沒有辦法這樣子嘛所以汽車機車他是變成日常生活的必需品所以我想"},{"start":282.523,"end":300.478,"text":"我們現在課徵高額的貨物稅是不符合社會的現狀所以希望財政部能夠更加積極的態度優先處理有利於人民的政策然後給出具體的調整方案謝謝委員指教 我們會往這個方向來努力"},{"start":301.198,"end":329.354,"text":"市長我再請教就是說民眾聽到說這個要去財政部要研擬小額包裹免稅門檻要調降到一千要降低這個門檻是不是就是說對這部分我就覺得不可思議你們的說法是說要避免稀產地那當然是要避免這個問題的發生但是根據目前的規定兩千年以下包裹半年免稅六次"},{"start":330.673,"end":349.323,"text":"這要怎麼稀產地啊等於是變相用稀產地之名來加稅啊小八國都是普通民眾百姓在購買的對不對而且一千塊一千塊人買多少東西隨便買現在隨便買都超過一千塊啦好都超過一千塊所以這樣的標準實在是太低了所以"},{"start":350.023,"end":363.804,"text":"可以說是對消費者一個過度的負擔我們要保護本地產業這是對的沒有錯但是應該要採取一個精確、正對性的措施不是說把所有的包裹都一視同仁的降低免稅門檻"},{"start":365.246,"end":390.188,"text":"這樣子無助解決問題反而會讓民眾認為說政府只是在找藉口加稅希望次長你們在制定政策的時候會站在民眾的立場去思考報告文聰這部分我們會基本上我們目前並沒有一個既定的方向我們還是在收集相關的意見我是希望就是說在制定政策的時候一定要考慮到民眾的一個實質需要"},{"start":391.949,"end":410.827,"text":"好不好我們不要為了這個其他的政治目的其他的政策操作然後呢犧牲掉民眾的權利好不好不要一味的找理由去增加民眾的負擔啦好不好好謝謝市長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝顏坤恆委員接著我們請林思敏委員那個小額包裹那個是上個禮拜那個民進黨委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時29分）謝謝主席，各位列席委員大家早。主席，有請財政部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長早。今天我們要審查貨物稅條例第十一條之一，有關於鼓勵民眾購買經濟部核定能源效率分級第一級、第二級的冰箱、冷氣、除濕機等電器用品，每台給予減徵貨物稅新臺幣2,000元，是因為今年6月14日就要到期了。"],["李次長慶華：是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：為了要達到2050淨零排碳的目標，並且延續民眾購買節能型家電的意願，所以我們提案延長5年到119年。請教次長，財政部會不會支持這項提案？"],["李次長慶華：當然我們已經跟經濟部會商同意延長，只是目前因為我們也有行政院的版本，現在正在行政院審查當中。我們初擬的方向是延長兩年半再加兩年，所以我們也希望等院版到立法院的時候，可以跟委員的提案一起討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：兩年再加兩年半，就是4年半。"],["李次長慶華：對，等於是如果實質的話，就到118年12月31日。"],["顏委員寬恒：跟委員的提案還有一小段差距，我們的提案是希望延長5年。"],["李次長慶華：對，我知道委員的提案是5年。"],["顏委員寬恒：我想減徵的部分是減輕民眾的負擔，讓民眾在選購家電的時候，會將經濟部核定的節能家電，作為考量的一個重要指標。"],["李次長慶華：是，沒錯。"],["顏委員寬恒：這個政策可以幫助政府達到淨零碳排，當然也能夠提高民眾對環保意識的認知，民眾在享受政府補助的時候，也能夠感受到自己的行為對環境的正面影響。同樣隨著市場上節能家電的選擇多樣化，讓選擇更具競爭性，這也是鼓勵家電業者產業在節能技術上的創新跟發展，可以形成一個良性的市場循環，所以財政部一定要大力的支持。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：再請教次長，上星期行政院記者會，大家最關心的就是川普總統的關稅政策，其中關務署副署長有說明汽車零組件，還有關稅跟貨物稅是否調降，但是都是很空泛的回答。我想在談判方面政府應該要聽人民的聲音，很多人建議要將汽車關稅作為談判的籌碼，經濟部長郭智輝卻說如果急速的驟降汽車關稅，恐讓臺灣汽車產業十多萬人大量失業。","我必須說川普的關稅政策影響的是全國人民、全世界，各個產業都被影響，政府應該要有所作為，沒有行業不被影響的，所以政府要做的就是幫民眾、幫產業找解方，如果按照郭部長講的，那我們就雙手一攤，什麼都不用做啦！什麼都不用有因應措施，叫大家早點起床，吃苦當做吃補，這樣做就可以度過這波，是這樣子嗎？我想請教次長，對於郭部長這番話，是不是可以解讀為政府目前沒有考量要調降汽車關稅？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，基本上行政院經貿談判辦公室，其實都有一直在針對未來對美關稅談判的部分，要考慮哪些應該可以調整或可以提出的籌碼。當然關稅跟我們目前看到的貨物稅、汽車貨物稅、汽車關稅，也是一個可能的因素。這個部分財政部的立場，就是我們都有提供相關的數據，還有它的影響評估，讓行政院經貿談判辦公室來做談判。"],["顏委員寬恒：汽機車的貨物稅調降，我認為是勢在必行，而且現在就是最好的時機。我們之前就常常跟部長討論，而且汽車、機車是我們日常生活中不可或缺的，它除了是代步工具之外，它已經成為必需品了，是剛性需求對不對？我們不是每個城市都像臺北市有捷運，這些大眾運輸系統都能夠串聯起來，其他縣市並沒有辦法這樣子，所以汽車、機車變成日常生活的必需品。我想我們現在課徵高額的貨物稅，是不符合社會的現狀，所以希望財政部能夠以更加積極的態度，優先處理有利於人民的政策，然後給出具體的調整方案。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員指教，我們會往這個方向來努力。"],["顏委員寬恒：我再請教次長，就是民眾聽到財政部研擬小額包裹免稅門檻要調降到1,000，要降低這個門檻是不是？對這部分我覺得不可思議，你們的說法是說要避免洗產地。當然是要避免這個問題的發生，但是根據目前的規定，2,000元以下包裹半年免稅6次，這要怎麼洗產地？等於是變相用洗產地之名來加稅，小額包裹都是普通百姓在購買的，對不對？而且1,000塊能買多少東西？現在隨便買都超過1,000塊，所以這個標準實在是太低了，可以說是對消費者一個過度的負擔。我們要保護本地產業是對的，沒有錯，但是應該要採取一個精確、針對性的措施，不是把所有的包裹都一視同仁的降低免稅門檻，這樣子無助解決問題，反而會讓民眾認為政府只是在找藉口加稅，希望次長，你們在制定政策的時候，會站在民眾的立場去思考。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，基本上我們目前並沒有一個既定的方向，我們還在蒐集相關的意見，然後做審慎的評估。"],["顏委員寬恒：我希望在制定政策的時候，一定要考慮到民眾的實質需要，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們也會考慮民眾的實質便利性……"],["顏委員寬恒：我們不要為了其他的政治目的、其他的政策操作，然後犧牲掉民眾的權利，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：我們會通盤來評估……"],["顏委員寬恒：不要一味的找理由去增加民眾的負擔，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝次長。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接著我們請林思銘委員。","那個小額包裹是上個禮拜民進黨委員提出的，要2,000塊不免稅。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160531","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160531","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc001d3e09febc29408c0f390e692fb4f249a3354dc8dbd3a62097c41cf62873e4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:17:49 - 11:29:33","影片長度":"00:11:44","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T11:17:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T11:29:33+08:00","duration":704,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.13221875,"end":1.9209687500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.215343750000002,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.31221875,"end":44.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.04471875,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.078468750000003,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.550968750000003,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.01471875,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.69909375,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.049093750000004,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.19971875,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.40784375,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.23409375,"end":80.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.37284375,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.37596875,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.99971875,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.24409375,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.40846875000001,"end":105.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.17909375,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.32221875,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.50534375000001,"end":154.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.63596875000002,"end":153.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.67784375000002,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.06596875,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.47096875,"end":191.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.54534375,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.53159375,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.48284375,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.15784375,"end":229.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.61659375000002,"end":222.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.15534375000001,"end":233.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.91846875000002,"end":259.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.54534375000003,"end":246.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.52784375000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.31534375,"end":264.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.54659375,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.93034375,"end":270.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.35159375,"end":274.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.54096875,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.64971875000003,"end":293.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.50409375000004,"end":306.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.00096875,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.49784375,"end":307.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.86471875,"end":333.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.92409375,"end":332.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.07596875,"end":333.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.12659375000004,"end":341.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.14346875,"end":334.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.31534375,"end":341.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.42471875,"end":344.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.17534375,"end":346.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.45784375,"end":348.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.29284375000003,"end":351.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.26284375,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.10471875,"end":366.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.38284375,"end":374.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.06534375,"end":377.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.47846875000005,"end":376.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.25034375,"end":384.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.57846875,"end":389.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.15159375,"end":389.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.79284375000003,"end":391.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.52659375,"e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遇到一些關稅的風風雨雨看起來好像負面消息比較多但是呢 我昨天看到一個國際貨幣基金IF它上調了台灣的經濟成長率"},{"start":24.239,"end":52.39,"text":"他本來預估這個台灣經濟成長率呢去年是估啦是估是今年是2.7%但是呢上調到2.9%那遠勝日本、韓國、香港跟新加坡然後呢我們的這個消費者物價的年增率1.8%遠低於全球的4.3%那請教一下次長這為什麼就是說大家認為說關稅會受到影響經濟成長受到影響那結果呢IMF上調了台灣的這個經濟成長率"},{"start":54.789,"end":76.304,"text":"我覺得主要還是因為我們目前的那個就是整個產製還有出口的狀況都是維持一個穩定的狀況而且如果以我們三月份的出口統計甚至四月份的預測的話其實都是會往上調升也是高於以往的紀錄可能是因為這樣一個趨勢到目前為止還是呈現這樣的狀態那你們有救過這個經濟成長率的預估嗎"},{"start":82.442,"end":106.673,"text":"主計總署有做過這樣的預估他預估我們今年的經濟成長率是3.14%3.14%那當然就是我們也問過啦就是說經濟成長可能會受到關稅的影響啦但是影響會多大還不太清楚還不確定那只是說因為這個IF它上調了台灣經濟成長率啦那其實也表示說台灣的政府目前的政策方向應該是還算是正確的啦是往正確的方向走的"},{"start":107.366,"end":122.993,"text":"好 那今天本來是要談貨物稅的修改那包含本席在內有許多的我原同仁都提出了貨物稅的修改那本席是提到貨物稅條例的第十一條之一第十二條之五 第十二條之六的條文修正草案"},{"start":123.593,"end":152.071,"text":"那最主要都是要比照這個第12條這個我們鼓勵購置新的復康巴士等車輛的期限然後呢也一併延長購買節能電器與汽機車、老舊大型車、太舊換新、減增貨物稅這些措施呢到了118年12月31號我是一律調因為我們是在去年的12月11月29號才三途通過這個貨物稅條例嘛我剛才講的是這個復康巴士"},{"start":152.731,"end":167.851,"text":"再延五年嘛那我就在想說那其實我們有很多的這個後稅條例相關的期限那有的是到比如說這個節電加電後稅是到今年的六月十四就到期"},{"start":168.792,"end":197.827,"text":"那這個第十二條之五 第十二條之六呢是到明年的一月七號還有呢 明年的十二月三十一號到期那我想說 那與其每次到了這一個時間快到然後我們就來修一次 時間快到修一次那所以我才會提案修正說那我們是不是就比照這個復康八字延到一百一十八年十二月三十一號那當然不同的委員有提出不同的看法那我請問一下 那現在行政院的因為現在還沒有行政院版本嘛那行政院的態度咧"},{"start":198.707,"end":211.021,"text":"我們現在行政院出你的方案就是我們財政部出你的方案跟經濟部會商的結果原則上我們是讓那個114年這個到期的時間延長到兩年半也就是到116年的12月31號"},{"start":213.544,"end":227.674,"text":"也兩年半就是這個6月14號要表期的然後就是讓行政院再試整個這個經濟的狀況就是推動政策的成效我們再讓行政院自己來研議看是不是延長一次可以再延長兩年結果也是到118年的12月31號"},{"start":230.802,"end":258.02,"text":"那明年還要到期的12條之五、12條之六咧?這個部分因為現在目前時間還沒到但是我們已經去洽了主管機關經濟部的意見包含汽機車太舊幻音這部分那原則上我們在下半年就會提出我們的修正方案那委員的建議也許我們可以參考一下看看到時候要延長一下如果真的有延長的必要的話看是不是可以參考委員的建議來做調整"},{"start":260.261,"end":279.247,"text":"如果說願版出來只有處理到第十一條之一的那等到明年的我們還要再修一次就對了因為它是剛好不同的條文就是因為不同的條文可是不同的年限那變成說貨物稅變成好像幾乎每年要修正一次就對了"},{"start":280.147,"end":296.736,"text":"當然委員這個建議其實委員今天這個建議很好就是讓我們這些有關配合政策調整的貨物稅的相關條文都能夠有一個一致的到期期間那這個方向其實我們也可以往這個方向來演繹我覺得你們去想一下啦那不然就是每次到了"},{"start":297.256,"end":324.841,"text":"期限要到了那現在6月14號要到了人家4月份修這件事然後明年的今年又要再修一次因為是明年1月7號嘛等於是今年年底又要再修一次啊12條之5對啊然後呢明年的要再修一次我是希望說這個貨物稅這個如果只是這個年限的問題的話沒有必要這樣每年這樣子修啦當然有一些有一些我們可以來談那那個我再問一下現在就是說我們這個貨物稅"},{"start":326.641,"end":343.112,"text":"這一個有關這個節能家電的貨物稅我們現在是這一個退稅是退兩千嘛對不對那我問一下經濟部好了經濟部這一個節能補助是節能家電好像是每台三千嘛每台三千嘛"},{"start":343.652,"end":352.835,"text":"那不過呢 這個經濟部這個節能的補助本來是今年編的68億然後預計台灣207萬台但是因為預算被在野黨凍結20%補助縮減到147萬台有50萬戶失去受惠的機會目前的凍結預算是這樣子嗎目前凍結的文字是這樣"},{"start":370.354,"end":383.856,"text":"試算出來但是我們努力來朝解凍的方向來爭取經濟部的這個解凍解能補助的這個解凍是要怎麼解凍他原來的那個提案是說有一些核能的研議的"},{"start":385.315,"end":411.708,"text":"經費跟規劃要提出一個報告啦這跟核能有什麼關係是委員的指教 對那所以咧 你們要提出報告就對了是要委員會同意還是要經過大院那個月會同意我的印象中 不好意思 這個是另外一個的大概是要經過那個委員會要同意 對那如果說這個沒有解凍的話只能補助到10月就對 差不多估量是到10月會結束"},{"start":412.168,"end":438.333,"text":"我是覺得莫名其妙啦 這節能減碳跟核能這個有什麼關係那所以就是說現在行政院也希望說那如果這個 這一檔有這個要求那我們能做的就拿出來做那其實我也是覺得 這早知如始何必當初啊當初不用動那麼多 不用刪那麼多的話現在就急著說這個立法院這個各個部會你們怎麼趕快不這個這個凍結案趕快拿出來解凍 這個"},{"start":439.973,"end":449.464,"text":"這個如果當初沒有這樣子做這個刪除活動計劃其實今天沒有這些問題啦那我再請教一下 那個 謝謝那請教一下那個市長這其實跟經濟部有關係啦因為齁"},{"start":453.415,"end":477.431,"text":"現在包含這個貨物稅的方面我看一下經濟部的回應其實經濟部的回應還有包含這個人民請願案他們都是希望說做這個調降的方式來做這個處理譬如說第11條條文的修正草案這個有委員提出來就是說把這個白色家電、黑色家電現在課徵的費率是在13%到20%不等"},{"start":479.392,"end":502.787,"text":"然後呢經濟部也認為說這些電器類的貨物是屬於一般民生必需品非奢侈品或高污染的產品適度調降稅率有助於降低家電的製造成本然後呢對於台灣消費者服務品質的強化競爭力等等這是經濟部的一個回應嘛那我請教一下這個財政部好了"},{"start":504.168,"end":524.934,"text":"這個有關這個貨物稅因為今天當然沒有做條文的這個討論我們做個方向但是我發現就很多的這個委員他們認為說你過去所制定的這個貨物稅那些種類其實你要與時俱進當初有當初課貨物稅的一些歷史的淵源但是到了現在"},{"start":525.894,"end":538.791,"text":"二零二五年了是不是那些那些貨品那些產品還要繼續在課這些貨物稅是不是請這個次長做個說明我想這個委員的指教我們都非常了解了好那但是就像以這個電器類為例的話因為我們"},{"start":541.474,"end":566.423,"text":"如果今天直接把這些電器商品的那個貨物稅取消的話當然對廠商來講他是實際的獲益者但是我們也考量就是說消費者也會獲益喔消費者不一定獲益消費者他基本上不一定他降價的利益會回饋給消費者這個我們可以要求啊就是說你如果降了貨物稅的話你是不是這一個在貨品上面我們要做這一個降價這我們可以要求啊"},{"start":568.404,"end":582.922,"text":"報告委員 其實這樣加這個要求因為畢竟是一個消費自由市場經濟自由市場的經濟雖然我們也許可以提出這樣一個請求但是它是沒有法律上的意義在政策上的誘因一定是可以做這樣處理的"},{"start":584.244,"end":608.686,"text":"因為我們目前其實我們十一條之一用這種節能退稅的方式其實對鼓勵消費者真的去太舊換新去使用高效率的節能家電是非常有誘因的而且是民眾可以看得到的他知道說我今天去買一個冷氣機買一個電冰箱我就可以獲得有五千塊錢的兩千塊錢的退稅三千塊錢的補助他實際上可以拿到這個利益對於消費者來講會比較有這個實質的誘因"},{"start":611.428,"end":624.464,"text":"所以你說這個補助會比調價貨物稅消費者他更能夠感受到說啊我有這一個便宜這個東西有便宜的嗎現在不是要透過廠商降價但是這個是不是一定會回饋消費者其實我們是沒有把握的"},{"start":625.88,"end":649.949,"text":"還有有關汽車貨物稅因為目前關稅在談判我也同意現在就先不談當作財政部去談判的籌碼但是貨物稅也是有關於汽車貨物稅調降也是一樣我是希望說雖然今天沒有討論這些事情但是財政部必須要有心理準備因為我看經濟部經濟部當然是比較站在消費者"},{"start":651.89,"end":670.996,"text":"我當然也有站在這個廠商為了產業發展的這個角度來講但是財政部要記得就是說有一些貨物稅過去的嚴格到現在你必須要做一些調整要與時俱進不然我自己看到我就覺得說你說像那個飲料你說因為影響到健康說我要課你貨物稅"},{"start":673.36,"end":694.2,"text":"那大家舉例啊 那手搖飲咧手搖飲有沒有影響到我們的健康 也有啊但是自由市場 自由選擇啊你也沒有扣大家的稅啊這些等等我覺得你們必須要有一套更清楚的一套梳鐵出來啦不然我們自己覺得說有些你不做調整也很難說得過去啦 好不好謝謝主席 謝謝市長謝謝林坤城委員 接著我們請嚴寬藤委員"},{"start":704.298,"end":704.5,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時17分）謝謝主席。我們先請財政部的李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。雖然最近遇到一些關稅的風風雨雨，看起來好像負面消息比較多，但是我昨天看到國際貨幣基金（IMF）的報告，它上調了臺灣的經濟成長率。"],["李次長慶華：對，經濟成長率。"],["李委員坤城：它本來預估臺灣的經濟成長率，去年是估2.7%，但是IMF估今年上調到2.9%，遠勝日本、韓國、香港跟新加坡，然後預估我們的消費者物價年增率是1.8%，遠低於全球的4.3%。請教一下次長，為什麼大家都認為經濟成長率會因為關稅而受到影響，結果IMF卻上調臺灣的經濟成長率？"],["李次長慶華：我覺得主要還是因為我們目前的整個產製，還有出口的狀況，都是維持一個穩定的狀況，而且如果以我們3月份的出口統計，甚至預測4月份的話，其實都是會往上調升，也是高於以往的紀錄，可能是因為這樣一個趨勢，到目前為止還是呈現這樣的狀態。"],["李委員坤城：那你們有做過這經濟成長率的預估嗎？"],["李次長慶華：主計總處有做過這樣的預估，它預估我們今年的經濟成長率是3.14%。"],["李委員坤城：3.14%，當然我們也問過，就是經濟成長可能會受到關稅的影響，但是影響會多大還不太清楚。"],["李次長慶華：對，還不確定。"],["李委員坤城：只是說因為IMF上調了臺灣的經濟成長率，其實這也表示臺灣政府目前的政策、方向應該還算是正確的啦。"],["李次長慶華：是往正確的方向走的。"],["李委員坤城：好，今天本來是要談貨物稅的修改，包含本席在內，有許多委員同仁都提出了貨物稅的修改，本席提出的是貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五、第十二條之六條文的修正草案，最主要都是要比照第十二條，我們鼓勵購置新的復康巴士等車輛的期限，也一併延長購買節能電器與汽機車、老舊大型車汰舊換新減徵貨物稅，這些措施到118年12月31號。我是一律調，因為我們是在去年11月29號才三讀通過貨物稅條例，就是我剛才講的復康巴士再延5年。","其實我們有很多貨物稅條例相關的期限，比如節能家電貨物稅是到今年的6月14號到期，第十二條之五、第十二條之六是到明年的1月7號，還有明年的12月31號到期。我想與其每次時間快到了我們就來修一次，所以我才會提案修正，我們是不是就比照復康巴士延到118年12月31號。當然不同的委員有提出不同的看法，我請問一下，因為現在還沒有行政院版本，那行政院的態度呢？"],["李次長慶華：財政部初擬的方案跟經濟部會商的結果，原則上我們是讓114年到期的時間延長到兩年半，也就是到116年12月31號。"],["李委員坤城：延兩年半，就是6月14號到期的？"],["李次長慶華：延兩年半，然後過了兩年以後，行政院再視整個經濟的狀況，也就是推動政策的成效，我們再讓行政院自己來研議，看是不是延長一次，可以再延長兩年，結果也是到118年12月31號。"],["李委員坤城：那明年到期的第十二條之五、第十二條之六呢？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分因為目前時間還沒到，但是我們已經洽詢主管機關經濟部的意見，包含汽機車汰舊換新這部分，原則上我們在下半年就會提出修正方案，委員的建議也許我們可以參考一下，到時候如果真的有必要延長的話，看看是不是可以參考委員的建議來做調整。"],["李委員坤城：對，我意思是說，如果等院版出來只有處理到第十一條之一。"],["李次長慶華：是，目前只有到第十一條之一。"],["李委員坤城：對，結果等到明年，我們還要再修一次就對了。"],["李次長慶華：因為它剛好是不同的條文，而且是不同的到期期間。"],["李委員坤城：就是因為不同的條文，可是不同的年限，變成貨物稅幾乎每年要修正一次。"],["李次長慶華：委員今天這個建議很好，就是讓這些有關配合政策調整貨物稅的相關條文，都能夠有一致的到期期間，其實我們也可以往這個方向來研議。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得你們去想一下啦！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員坤城：不然就是每次期限要到了，現在6月14號要到了，你在4月份修正一次，然後明年到期的，今年又要再修一次，因為是明年1月7號到期，等於是今年年底又要再修一次。"],["李次長慶華：對，第十二條之五。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！明年的還要再修一次，我希望貨物稅如果只是年限問題的話，沒有必要每年這樣子修啦！"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["李委員坤城：當然有一些我們可以來談，我再問一下，有關節能家電的貨物稅，現在退稅是退2,000，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是，上限2,000。"],["李委員坤城：我問一下經濟部好了，經濟部，節能家電好像是每台3,000。"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["李委員坤城：不過經濟部的節能補助，本來今年編了68億，預計汰換207萬台，但是因為預算被在野黨凍結了20%，補助縮減到147萬台，有50萬戶失去受惠的機會，目前的凍結預算是這樣子嗎？"],["高組長淑芳：目前凍結的文字是這樣試算出來，但是我們會努力朝解凍的方向來爭取相關經費。"],["李委員坤城：經濟部節能補助的解凍是要怎麼解凍？"],["高組長淑芳：原來的提案是說，有一些核能的研議經費跟規劃要提出一個報告。"],["李委員坤城：這跟核能有什麼關係？"],["高組長淑芳：這是委員的指教。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們要提出報告就對了。"],["高組長淑芳：對，提出報告才能解凍。"],["李委員坤城：是要委員會同意，還是要經過院會同意？"],["高組長淑芳：我的印象中大概是要經過委員會同意。"],["李委員坤城：如果沒有解凍的話只能補助到10月就……"],["高組長淑芳：對，估量是差不多到10月會結束。"],["李委員坤城：我是覺得莫名其妙啦！節能減碳跟核能有什麼關係？所以現在行政院也希望，如果在野黨有這個要求，我們能做的就拿出來做。"],["高組長淑芳：是。"],["李委員坤城：其實我也是覺得早知如此何必當初，當初不用凍那麼多、不用刪那麼多的話，現在就不必急著各個部會的凍結案趕快拿出來解凍，如果當初沒有刪除或凍結的話，今天就沒有這些問題。","這其實跟經濟部有關係，因為目前貨物稅條例，經濟部的回應還有包含人民請願案，他們都是希望以調降的方式來處理，比如第十一條條文的修正草案，有委員提出來白色家電、黑色家電，現在課徵的費率是在13%到20%不等；經濟部也認為，這些電器類的貨物是屬於一般民生必需品，非奢侈品或高污染的產品，適度調降稅率有助於降低家電的製造成本，不僅可提升對臺灣消費者的服務品質，亦能強化競爭力等等，這是經濟部的回應。","我請教一下財政部，有關貨物稅，因為今天沒有做條文的討論，我們做個方向，我發現很多委員認為，過去所制定的貨物稅那些種類要與時俱進。當初有當初課貨物稅的一些歷史淵源，但是到現在2025年了，那些貨品、那些產品，是不是還要繼續再課這些貨物稅？請次長做個說明。"],["李次長慶華：是，委員的指教我們都非常了解，但是就像以電器類為例，因為如果今天直接把這些電器商品的貨物稅取消的話，當然對廠商來講是實際的獲益者，但是我們也考量……"],["李委員坤城：消費者也會獲益。"],["李次長慶華：消費者不一定獲益，基本上降價的利益不一定會回饋給消費者，或者說……"],["李委員坤城：這個我們可以要求，就是如果降了貨物稅，是不是在貨品上面要降價，這我們可以要求啊！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，其實降價這個要求，因為畢竟消費就是自由市場經濟，雖然我們也許可以提出這樣一個請求，但是它是沒有法律上的……"],["李委員坤城：在政策上的用意，一定可以做這樣的處理啦！"],["李次長慶華：但是目前第十一條之一用這種節能退稅的方式，對鼓勵消費者真的去汰舊換新，去使用高效率的節能家電，是非常有誘因的，而且是民眾可以看得到的。他知道今天去買一台冷氣機或買一台電冰箱就可以獲得5,000塊錢，包含2,000塊錢的退稅與3,000塊錢的補助。他實際上可以拿到這個利益，對消費者來講會比較有實質的誘因，廠商不見得……"],["李委員坤城：所以補助會比調降貨物稅，讓消費者更能夠感受到這個東西有便宜了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：透過廠商降價是不是一定會回饋給消費者，其實我們是沒有把握的。"],["李委員坤城：還有關於汽車貨物稅，因為目前關稅正在談判，我也同意現在先不談，當作財政部去談判的一個籌碼。但是有關於汽車貨物稅調降也是一樣，雖然今天沒有討論這些事情，我希望財政部必須要有心理準備，因為經濟部當然是比較站在消費者的立場，不過當然也有站在廠商為了產業發展的角度來想。但是財政部要記得，有一些貨物稅過去的沿革到現在，必須做一些調整，要與時俱進。我以飲料為例，你說因為影響到健康，所以要課貨物稅，那大家就舉例了，手搖飲呢？手搖飲有沒有影響到我們的健康？也有啊！但是自由市場自由選擇，你也沒有扣它的稅啊！這些等等，我覺得你們必須要有一套更清楚的說帖，不然我們覺得有些你不做調整也很難說得過去，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席、謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","接著我們請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160530","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc02e67f0829d18cf914d63fb5309bb2e639a3354dc8dbd3a62d2e48d6a2087c5825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:42:38 - 11:57:35","影片長度":"00:14:57","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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現在健保署也成立了一個將以不同工不同酬為原則來優先調整集中症還有螺製 醫療人力螺製跟留任困難的 譬如說兒科這個部分我們在幾乎上 一定讓他有在不同工不同酬的情況之下 先給他們挹注"},{"start":85.005,"end":112.724,"text":"那如果譬如說六歲以下的六歲以下這個其實都有這個部分是不是也要依照年齡來做一個調整這個都一直有在調整我想我跟那個蘇委員以前過去在醫師公會在談兒科方面的加成的部分我們都是十分支持的所以當然因為各科在談嘛所以大家有不同的意見但是基本上我們會請"},{"start":114.805,"end":133.02,"text":"也會說服所有的科別給兒科最大的一個增長的空間像上一次有一次調得好像不夠兒科醫學不夠滿意我們過一陣子也把它都補過來真的我們心都在這個兒童怎麼照顧那我們也珍惜兒童醫療的人員"},{"start":135.102,"end":148.849,"text":"接下來我想請教我記得在我第一屆當立委的時候就針對這個疫苗的處置費做一個爭取所以在107年的時候我們的疫苗處置費就是這邊就是100元的處置費"},{"start":151.69,"end":178.602,"text":"那當然這個整個這幾年當中其實整個物價上漲那我也希望就是說衛福部針對這部分能夠去做一個調整我剛剛特別提到就是說其實一個兒科醫師要診斷這個兒童的這個疾病其實要花蠻多時間的那尤其是我們的這個疫苗的這個疫苗要打疫苗其實你們又要求可能他的這個保存的方式"},{"start":179.942,"end":201.03,"text":"或者是物流的整個方式或者人力你們都有一些要求可是我們的這個疫苗儲置費從107年的這個100元到現在一直都沒有做一個調整那當然就是說從日本跟韓國我們去做一個比較日本他做這個儲置費可能800到1000那韓國的話可能依年齡不同就有"},{"start":201.77,"end":230.052,"text":"不一樣的這個疫苗處置費可能400到500或800到1000不等所以我想請教就是說部長針對這個疫苗的處置費因為確實你們又要拜託基層診所基層醫療來做這樣的一個工作那這個疫苗的覆蓋率應該也是要由基層的這些醫師來服務所以我是認為就是說這個疫苗處置費你們是不是也要做一個調整"},{"start":231.343,"end":256.355,"text":"好 謝謝委員 首先感謝委員在應該是第九屆的時候我們努力在委員您的努力 跟大家的努力支持之下我們好不容易把這個疫苗處置費微薄的一百塊當時的利潤就是說其實我們一個小孩子進來不是說我們要來就來"},{"start":259.656,"end":269.64,"text":"這個評估主要是醫生要負責任的這個專業要不要加一些來處置費一個而且那個還有冰箱啦,這些都要自己處理要怎麼廢棄也是要自己處理所以基本上我覺得真的是基層醫師願意來打這個針"},{"start":289.008,"end":298.158,"text":"真的是令人敬佩,而且感謝啦,我們可以去小學看,要打這個針齁,兩個護理人員齁,給他夾住了啦,那如果沒有更加措用的護理人員,小孩子後面還踢你兩腳這樣子。好,所以部長你覺得這個這麼辛苦的工作,是不是也該做一個調整了?"},{"start":311.892,"end":331.64,"text":"我想我們在疫苗基金,這個是疫苗基金出的嘛所以現在每年大概都有5.3億到9.3億的處置費啦你要拿完,我們就要在疫苗基金來處理嘛這個我也請石耀署一直在研議啦,不曉得副市長有沒有說現在研議的狀況"},{"start":333.029,"end":356.141,"text":"好那跟委員報告我們目前的那個疫苗的一個採購的費用跟疫苗的一個處置的費用或是疫苗接種相關的費用都是從疫苗基金裡面做支出啦那就以今年的預算來看我們今年的預算的一個編列大概是將近83億可是呢我們今年的一個基金的收入大概就是只有75億"},{"start":357.162,"end":375.438,"text":"也就是說我們目前的支出比收入要稍微短一點點那可是當然我們疫苗基金有一點剩餘啦所以目前還夠那可是如果說我們要新增加疫苗或是說要多增加疫苗儲值費的話恐怕這個疫苗基金就不夠不過就像剛剛部長講的或是委員講的"},{"start":376.018,"end":389.422,"text":"我們非常感謝基層醫療院所的醫護人員協助我們來做疫苗接種的一個工作也因為他們的一個協助才讓我們目前的一個疫苗的接種率大概都有95%以上"},{"start":392.583,"end":395.427,"text":"我希望說這個部長跟副署長應該要講就是說基層醫療醫師他們願意在基層這樣子一個服務可是你們也不能讓他們長期以來就是一直做功德所以我覺得應該要有一個合理的應該做一個合理的調整"},{"start":409.927,"end":427.841,"text":"是是是謝謝委員對疫苗處置費的一個關心那我們這個部分我們會參考就像高委員講的日本或韓國或是其他國家的一個疫苗處置費的一個標準那我們也會看看國內的一個相關的一些研究事實上我們目前已經在做一些相關的一些研議了"},{"start":430.404,"end":445.5,"text":"我們可能也會參考健保的支付的標準就是對一般診察費的標準然後在整個綜合的物價指數還有一些人事的成本或是一些設備的成本那當然疫苗跟一般的臨床處置有一點點"},{"start":445.981,"end":469.788,"text":"疫苗接種跟一般的臨床處置有一點點不一樣就是說他除了要去做健康評估以外呢他還必須要針對這些疫苗要做一些良善的一些管理尤其是冷運冷藏的管理這樣子的話可能就會這樣對疫苗的一個安全性或是有效性才能夠有保障所以我們會去考量這幾個因素然後呢來去"},{"start":471.729,"end":495.951,"text":"來調整如果有需要的話就是調整疫苗的一個處置費用不過有一個進度你要給我一個進度吧不然這樣子從一百零幾年到現在我們一直有在跟部長這邊還有在跟行政院那邊來做一些討論那希望能夠在預算的一個來源能夠確保的情況之下能夠提升這樣子部長是不是做一下"},{"start":497.512,"end":514.32,"text":"我想這個也是我心中一直覺得等於是我當立委當了8年然後一直努力在爭取這一塊到現在我也覺得是很需要的啦但是因為疫苗基金真的有限所以我們應該來爭取另外的"},{"start":516.301,"end":537.768,"text":"挹注的預算來給這些打疫苗的醫療團隊一個合理的回饋我覺得這是一個尊重專業跟保護兒童很重要的一件事情非常感謝委員一直棄有不捨在處理這件事情我們當然是絕對不會中斷的"},{"start":539.268,"end":563.894,"text":"跟部長講就是說今天我們大家都非常關心我們的兒童醫療那其實在最基層的這一群人真的默默在協助政府做這樣的一個工作所以我覺得說應該也要讓他們有一個合理的報酬而不是他們覺得就剛剛那個趙薇講的這個保存的不好或者是這個疫苗可能壞掉還是怎樣還要賠還要賠"},{"start":566.295,"end":585.102,"text":"還要罰對啊所以我覺得說應該要給他們有一個合理的報酬那我也希望說部長應該在近期內應該近期內趕快將這個這個疫苗的處置費趕快做一個定案我跟委員報告一下我們這個一定努力去做我想應該做的是合理的事"},{"start":585.822,"end":615.011,"text":"一定去做那另外還請所有的醫界同仁也要了解到我們也會利用各種可能的財源來提高給付然後增加那個大家的一個一個讓整個待遇就好像剛剛蘇昭也提的如果甚至我們都目標提高所有醫事人員的待遇就是你看我們一個醫院的其實所有的醫院的院長幾乎都是有共同的理念那政府絕對"},{"start":616.127,"end":636.737,"text":"不會置身以外,一定盡量爭取更多的機會給醫療院所但是希望這些資源是分到真的落實到我們所有醫事人員的薪資及待遇這樣子這個就是努力的方向好謝謝,再麻煩部長你寫一個提案,把它提到500號"},{"start":647.021,"end":660.346,"text":"跟委員報告一下 因為剛剛林淑芬委員有說有問到那個國光流感疫苗的一個採購的數字那目前去年的一個國光疫苗大概採購的數字大概在我們所有700萬劑的50%左右大概就是300多萬劑"},{"start":663.047,"end":672.614,"text":"我剛剛有一些恐怖在講成500多萬劑那在這邊做一個修正大概是50%左右大概300多萬劑那再跟委員做一些修正 謝謝謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":853,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時42分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：好，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天就偏鄉的兒童發展及篩檢的執行狀況做一個檢討。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：今天我想針對的是兒童醫療的部分，其實20歲以下的人口占總人口數的18%，但是我們的健保資源只占健保總額的8%而已。前陣子有很多基層兒科醫師都一再反映，無論是在醫學中心或是在一些醫院，其實都可以發現兒科醫師真的越來越少、願意投入兒科的醫師也越來越少，因此許多兒科醫師或兒科醫學會一直希望，在兒科醫療的部分是不是能夠匡列固定的足夠預算？剛剛我聽到蘇清泉召委特別提到或是前面幾位委員也都特別提到，當兒童病患進入醫院或診所的診間，因為小朋友也不太會表達，可能就只會哭，醫師就只能依據本身的診斷、猜測及家長描述，確定孩子生了什麼病或是需要什麼樣的治療。因此，我們希望兒科的部分、兒童醫療的部分是不是可以匡列一個固定的預算，是不是請部長先做一個回答？"],["邱部長泰源：匡列疫苗處置費？"],["黃委員秀芳：不是，先醫療，譬如固定一筆預算，針對兒童醫療的部分，不然我們看到兒童醫療的預算一直都受到排擠。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員關心兒童醫療的發展，我想這個部分在醫界或政府方面都是共同攜手努力，譬如健保在這幾年當中也挹注了二十幾億用於兒科的專科養成。我先講一下，兒科真的是很辛苦，現在也算是大家比較不想走的科……"],["黃委員秀芳：是啊！不想投入的一個科別。"],["邱部長泰源：對國家而言，這是一個必須要很重視的問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，你要知道，在少子化的狀況下，我們對於兒童醫療、兒童健康不能忽視，如果兒科醫師一直減少的話，其實並不是我們所樂見的事情。因此，我認為兒科醫療的預算是不是應該匡列一定的預算下來，不然，到最後兒科醫療的預算都會受到排擠。剛剛我也特別提出20歲以下人口占我們總人口數的18%，但是在健保總額中就只占了8%而已，針對兒科醫療的預算是不是可以請衛福部朝這個方向考慮，未來的醫療給付或醫療的部分是不是可以匡列一個固定的足夠預算下來？"],["邱部長泰源：如果以健保這個部分來講，當然就是大家一起談嘛！的確也曾經提過兒科小總額的概念，但是這個等於是醫院大家自己討論，在這個部分好像還沒有得到共識，不過我們也不能因為沒有得到共識就不重視兒童醫療的發展。現在健保署也將以不同工不同酬為原則，優先調整急重症及醫療人力留任困難的部分，譬如兒科，我們一定會在不同工不同酬的基礎之下，先行挹注對於他們的給付。"],["黃委員秀芳：譬如6歲以下的部分，是不是也要依照年齡進行調整？"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個一直都有在調整。我與蘇委員過去在醫師公會談過兒科加成的部分，我們都是十分的支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：因為是各科在談，大家都有不同的意見，基本上，我們也會說服所有的科別，給予兒科最大的增長空間。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：譬如有一次調了之後，兒科醫學會好像不夠滿意，過一陣子我們也把它都補過來了。真的，我們的心都放在如何照顧兒童、我們也珍惜兒童醫療人員。"],["黃委員秀芳：我記得在我第一屆擔任立委時就針對疫苗處置費提出爭取，後來從107年開始，疫苗處置費用就是100元。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：隨著時空背景的變化，這幾年整個物價上漲，我們也希望衛福部能針對這個部分做出調整。剛剛我也特別提到，兒科醫師診斷兒童疾病其實要花滿多的時間，更何況還要施打疫苗，針對保存的方式、物流的方式或人力，你們也都有一些要求，但是疫苗處置費從107年的100元到現在一直都沒有調整。我們就以日本、韓國來做一個比較，日本的處置費可能是800元到1,000元、韓國可能是依照年齡不同而有不一樣的疫苗處置費，可能是400元到500元或800元到1,000元不等。部長，你們既要拜託基層醫療診所做這樣的工作，而且疫苗覆蓋率應該也是由這些基層醫師負責執行，因此，我認為你們是不是也應該針對疫苗處置費做一個調整？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。首先要感謝委員，應該是第9屆的時候，在委員及大家的努力支持之下，好不容易有了疫苗處置費，雖然只有微薄的100元。當時的立論主要是認為，小孩子踏進診所並不是直接就可以注射疫苗，醫師還必須先進行評估，否則，發生什麼狀況是要醫生負責的。"],["黃委員秀芳：是啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這個專業難道不值得拿到一些處置費嗎？況且保存疫苗還需要冰箱等等設備，這些都是要自己處理，如果疫苗壞掉了也是要……"],["黃委員秀芳：要自己賠啊！"],["邱部長泰源：基本上，我覺得基層醫師願意打這個針，真的是令人敬佩及感謝！我們可以去小兒科看看，打這個針需要2位護理人員將小孩抓住，如果護理人員不夠粗勇，可能還會被小孩踢你兩腳。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，對於這麼辛苦的工作，你覺得是不是也該做一個調整呢？"],["邱部長泰源：這是由疫苗基金支付的費用，現在每年大概都有5.3億到9.3億的處置費，如果想提高就要從疫苗基金去處理，關於這個部分，我也要求食藥署進行研議，現在就請副署長說明目前研議的狀況。"],["曾副署長淑慧：報告委員，目前疫苗採購的費用、疫苗處置的費用或疫苗接種的相關費用都是從疫苗基金支出，我們就以今年的預算來看，今年的預算編列大概是將近83億，但是今年基金的收入大概只有75億，也就是說，我們目前的支出比收入要稍微短一點點，當然我們的疫苗基金有一點剩餘，所以目前還夠。如果我們要新增疫苗或調漲疫苗處置費，恐怕這個疫苗基金就會不夠。不過，就像剛剛部長講的或是委員講的，我們非常感謝基層醫療診所的醫護人員，協助我們做疫苗接種的工作，也因為有他們的協助，才讓我們目前的疫苗接種率都能達到95%以上……"],["黃委員秀芳：部長、副署長，基層醫療醫師願意在基層做這樣的服務，但是你們也不能讓他們長期以來一直都在做功德，因此，我認為應該要做一個合理的調整。"],["曾副署長淑慧：是，謝謝委員對疫苗處置費的關心，針對這個部分，我們會參考剛剛委員所講的日本、韓國或其他國家疫苗處置費的標準，同時也會看看國內的一些相關研究。事實上，目前我們已經在做一些相關的研議，可能也會參考健保支付的標準，也就是針對一般診察費的標準，再綜合整個物價指數、一些人事的成本或是一些設備的成本。當然疫苗接種與一般的臨床處置有一點點不一樣，它除了要做健康評估之外，還必須針對這些疫苗做一些良善的管理，尤其是冷運冷藏的管理，對於疫苗的安全性或有效性才有保障。因此，我們會考量這幾個因素，如果有需要就會調整疫苗處置費用，不過，有一個……"],["黃委員秀芳：進度呢？你要給我一個進度吧？不然，從107年到現在……"],["曾副署長淑慧：我們一直都與部長及行政院那邊做一些討論，希望在預算來源可以確保的情況下能夠提升。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，是不是做一下……"],["邱部長泰源：從我擔任立委8年，一直到現在都在努力這一塊，其實我也認為這是很需要的，但是疫苗基金真的有限，所以我們應該要爭取另外的挹注預算，給予這些注射疫苗的醫療人員一個合理的回饋，我認為這是尊重專業及保護兒童很重要的一件事情。真的很感謝委員一直鍥而不捨的關心這件事情，我們也絕對不會中斷努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，今天我們大家都非常關心兒童醫療，在最基層的這群人其實都默默地協助政府做這個工作，因此，我認為也應該讓他們有一個合理的報酬，不然就像剛剛召委所講的，如果保存不好導致疫苗壞掉或怎麼樣，他們還要賠、還要罰！所以我認為應該要給他們一個合理的報酬，也希望部長在近期內盡快針對疫苗處置費做一個定案。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們一定會努力去做，應該做的事、合理的事就一定去做。另外，也請所有的醫界同仁了解，我們會利用各種可能的財源，提高給付以及增加待遇，誠如剛剛蘇召委提的，我們甚至將目標訂為提高所有醫事人員的待遇。其實所有醫院的院長幾乎都有共同的理念，政府也絕對不會置身於外，一定會盡量爭取更多經費給醫療院所，但是，希望這些資源真的落實在所有醫事人員的薪資及待遇，這個就是努力的方向。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝，再麻煩部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：你就寫一個提案，將它提高500元。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["主席：你可以提案，但我們提案就不行，因為我們提了就會被說太貴、就會被罵啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思！副署長要修正一個數字，剛才她講錯了。"],["曾副署長淑慧：報告委員，剛剛林淑芬委員問到國光疫苗的採購數字，去年國光疫苗採購的數字大概佔所有700萬劑的50%左右，也就是三百多萬劑啦！剛剛我有一些口誤，講成五百多萬劑，在這邊做一個修正，應該是50%左右，大概是三百多萬劑，在此向委員提出修正，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。","接續請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc042bd167ff700dada16f08763592c0c249a3354dc8dbd3a629284dfcc574f75d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"11:45:52 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謝謝召委 那有請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":18.573,"end":39.762,"text":"瑋洋好瑋洋好但是我們卻發現文化創意娛樂產業卻意外地逆勢成長那可能是因為它沒有這個依賴貨運運輸受關稅影響我想我們最近看到世界各國都受到美國總統川普關稅政策的影響那麼除了全球股市大震盪之外很多產業也預計陸陸續續可能這個創會比較小那受到經濟趨緩的影響那民眾的一般性消費可能會降低可是呢"},{"start":46.745,"end":52.289,"text":"這時候可能通常會窩在家裡面看電視看電影打遊戲都會出來但是我們卻發現文化創意娛樂產業卻意外地逆勢成長那可能是因為他沒有這個依賴貨運運輸受關稅影響等等所以許多的投資人都在這個時候認為說"},{"start":64.176,"end":70.061,"text":"關稅危機對於文創娛樂產業來說可能也是一個轉機那在這樣的背景之下事實上也證明文創娛樂產業的串流平台Netflix的成長是層逆勢的成長那在一片股災之下我們看到它的股價上漲了15%那會比較小那受到經濟趨緩的影響那民眾的一般性消費可能會降低"},{"start":85.655,"end":91.416,"text":"可是這時候可能通常會窩在家裡面看電視看電影打遊戲等等所以許多的投資人都在這個時候認為說關稅危機對於文創娛樂產業來說可能也是一個轉機那在這樣的背景之下這個第一季的營收也成長了12.5%那麼淨利成長也約大概24%這表現是不錯的那預計它整年的營收也一樣會持續地往上成長所以它的執行長Peters說"},{"start":114.782,"end":138.05,"text":"娱乐产业在历来经济较为艰困的时期都表现出相当的任性上也证明文创娱乐产业的串流平台Netflix的成长是层面式的成长那在一片股灾之下我们看到它的股价上涨了15%那不过呢在这个时候我们要投入文创内容预算的这件事情上可能就要比以往更加谨慎更讲究策略次长的同意吗"},{"start":139.238,"end":155.167,"text":"是好 那這個第一季的營收也成長了12.5%那麼淨利成長了也約大概24%這表現是不錯的那預計它整年的營收也一樣會持續所以我想文化部為了要強化我國文創產業內容的製作力在100年起由國發基金預祝了100億作為裁員委託文策院來持續的往上成長所以它的這個執行長這個Peters說"},{"start":165.575,"end":178.036,"text":"娛樂產業在歷來經濟較為艱困的時期都表現出相當的韌性喔那不過呢在這個時候我們要投入文創內容預算的這件事情上可能就要比以往更加謹慎更講究策略次長同意嗎"},{"start":181.65,"end":202.136,"text":"那這個文化內容投資的一個計畫這當中包含事業體的投資那投資的對象有宰民是股份有限所以我想文化部為了要強化我國文創產業內容的製作力在100年起由國發基金預祝100億作為裁員委託文策院來執行公司請問一下什麼樣的事業體可以獲得這個投資"},{"start":203.936,"end":210.479,"text":"它基本上就是還是要針對文化內容產業好 針對文化內容產業 沒有錯所以執行國發基金那這個文化內容投資的一個計畫這當中包含事業體的投資那投資的對象有指明是"},{"start":219.702,"end":242.151,"text":"股份有限我們依照文化部辦理投資文化創意產業事業及專案作業要點那也就是說我們投資範疇跟對象是要有助於促進我國文化創意產業生態的發展相關的事業跟專案也就您剛剛說的很好要以文化內容為主好但是我們來看到文策院投資案的公司請問一下什麼樣的事業體可以獲得這個投資"},{"start":243.953,"end":267.051,"text":"它基本上就是還是要針對文化內容產業好 針對文化內容產業 沒有錯所以當中本席發現有一間叫做黃金稻埕股份有限公司它是准入文化股份有限公司在111年的1月5號找文策院供我們依照文化部辦理投資文化創意產業事業及專案作業要點那也就是說我們投資範疇跟對象"},{"start":268.192,"end":296.284,"text":"是要有助於促進我國文化創意產業生態的發展相關的事業跟專案也就您剛剛說的很好要以文化內容為主但是我們來看到文策院投資案同來投資並且得到了4400萬的投資款可是根據資料來顯示這個黃金稻埕它主要的營業項目是餐館餐廳會議辦理跟這個營酒店那這好像沒有符合剛才次長您所說的文化內容那"},{"start":297.765,"end":319.116,"text":"而且本席進步的來調查這個當中本席發現有一間叫做黃金稻埕股份有限公司它是準陸文化股份有限公司在111年的1月5號找文策院共同來投資並且得到了4400萬的投資款可是根據資料來顯示這個黃金稻埕它主要的營業項目是餐館黃金稻埕在104年"},{"start":322.718,"end":345.363,"text":"在104人力銀行招募的九項職權禮我看到有七項都是在招募這個餐飲人才餐廳會議辦理跟這個飲酒店那這好像沒有符合剛才次長您所說的文化內容而且本席進一步的來調查這個工作內容做什麼呢就是在位於迪化街有一個弗蘭許咖啡"},{"start":346.663,"end":375.402,"text":"福萊許咖啡館還有這個發琴吧酒黃金稻埕在104人力銀行招募的9項職權禮我看到有7項都是在招募這個餐飲人才鹹健這家公司恐怕根本就是在做餐飲為主經營咖啡吧跟酒吧那這是要怎麼樣去協助文創產業的工作內容做什麼呢就是在位於迪化街有一個福萊許咖啡"},{"start":376.704,"end":386.84,"text":"福萊許咖啡館還有這個發情罷酒發展喔這個能不能說明一下委員不好意思因為這個投資案是文策院在經營我可以請文策院做書嗎 謝謝"},{"start":388.953,"end":411.912,"text":"委員好 跟委員做說明因為黃金道人這個案子它是以這個文化策展為吸引的訴求啦它的變現管道當然是餐飲但它主要的這個跟一般餐廳是不一樣的我爸 賢健喔這家公司恐怕根本就是在做餐飲為主經營咖啡吧跟酒吧喔那這是要怎麼樣去協助文創產業的它是用文化元素在做"},{"start":412.312,"end":427.309,"text":"那個我想一樣次長喔那剛剛我們有講到他說因為他是當中有文化策展那他當然還是以這個經營餐飲為主喔所以這個我就發展喔這個能不能說明一下委員不好意思因為這個投資案是文策院在經營我可以請文策院做書嗎可以謝謝"},{"start":429.019,"end":450.278,"text":"委員好跟委員說覺得跟我們剛剛所說的要以文化內容為主要我覺得是有落差那我們再來看根據共同投資發的准入公司資料自己顯示說明因為黃金造成這個案子它是以文化策展為吸引的訴求它的變現管道當然是餐飲但它主要的跟一般餐廳是不一樣的"},{"start":450.538,"end":479.493,"text":"它的業務其實就是包含了Flash咖啡館那甚至於這兩家就是黃金稻埕跟這個準路公司其實同一個負責人這樣的投資案其實社長您覺得合理嗎跟委員報告因為我們的投資其實還是有一定的標準就是我們的錢才會進場那它這裡看起來變現是餐飲但是它的這個投資在文化內容上可能指的是策展那基本上它還是要符合我們的標準如果沒有符合我們的標準我們還是可以"},{"start":480.033,"end":509.105,"text":"他還是用文化元素在做來那個我想一樣 次長喔那剛剛我們有講到他說因為他是當中有文化策展那他當然還是以這個經營餐飲為主喔所以這個我就這樣當然啦就是說他在眾多的營業項目當中主要全部都是餐飲類那有一項可能是這個策展喔那如果這樣就符合我們是在想說會不會有更覺得跟我們剛剛所說的要以文化內容為主要喔我覺得是有落差喔那我們再來看根據共同投資發的准入公司資料"},{"start":509.545,"end":535.897,"text":"自己顯示它多其實是更適合的我想這個由你去再去回頭檢視一下因為我們希望這個錢要花在刀口上補助要補助對地方那這個本席一開始有說到這業務其實就是包含了Flash咖啡館那甚至於這兩家就是黃金稻埕跟這個準路公司其實同一個負責人這樣的投資也是您所說的現在投資這個文創這個內容當然是非常的重要但是也要謹慎"},{"start":537.057,"end":552.089,"text":"那何況如果說這個投資的內容當中對於文創案其實次長您覺得合理嗎跟委員報告因為我們的投資其實還是有一定的標準就是我們的錢才會進場那他這裡看起來變現是餐飲但是他的這個"},{"start":553.51,"end":580.335,"text":"投資在文化內容上可能指的是策展那基本上它還是要符合我們的標準如果沒有符合我們的標準我們還是可以在這個地方或者是這個文化內容是占少數的我覺得我們是要去多想一下那另外還有一件投資案本席看到也有一些問題就是一個宣華股份有限公司的這個投資案110年這個場域國際創投找了文策院共同投資宣華公司也獲得文策院這樣"},{"start":581.315,"end":608.072,"text":"當然就是說它在眾多的營業項目當中主要全部都是餐飲類那有一項可能是這個策展那如果這樣就符合我們是在想說會不會有更三千萬的這個資金挹注但是我們看到共同投資方這個場域國際卻在這個我們的資金這個進入之後113年絕多其實是更適合的我想這個由你去再去回頭檢視一下因為我們希望這個錢要花在刀火上補助要補助對地方"},{"start":608.832,"end":630.332,"text":"那這個本席開始有說到一個銷售垃圾幣的一個詐騙案據媒體的報導我看到也嚇一跳不罰所得恐怕高達22億文化部後來知道這件事嗎也是您所說的現在投資這個文創這個內容當然是非常的重要但是也要謹慎那何況如果說這個投資的內容當中對於文創"},{"start":631.814,"end":654.474,"text":"文化部後來知道那文化部後來知道的話你有沒有針對這個可能捲入詐騙案的共同投資方那回頭去了解看看那文策院有沒有可能也在被騙的當中那同時文化部跟文策院針對這個共同投資方後來涉及這麼大的一個不法有沒有銀行或者是這個文化內容是在少數的我覺得我們是要去多"},{"start":656.334,"end":674.859,"text":"另外還有一件投資案本席看到也有一些問題就是一個軒華股份有限公司的投資案110年這個場域國際創投找了文策院共同投資軒華公司也獲得文策院的作為文策院應該有機制我還是請文策院做說明"},{"start":675.933,"end":688.63,"text":"跟委員報告因為第一個我們當初這個場域國際是投資方共同投資方我們不是把錢給場域國際這第一個第二個當初他在申請我們共投的時候他還沒有發生這件事情所以我們當初盡職調查都沒有任何法律的"},{"start":691.213,"end":709.936,"text":"3千萬的資金挹注但是我們看到共同投資方這個場域國際卻在我們的資金進入之後113年捲入了一個銷售垃圾幣的一個詐騙案據媒體的報導我看到也嚇一跳不罰所得恐怕高達22億文化部後來知道這件事嗎"},{"start":711.277,"end":723.983,"text":"那個次長 剛文策院回答是說我們投資之後它才發生的嘛但我們來看一看 投資之前它發生什麼那這個投資對象 這個雄華公司在文策院110年投資之前也就是108年就爆出了這個負責人利用職權性騷擾旗下的無雙樂壇文化部後來知道那文化部如果後來知道的話你有沒有針對這個可能捲入詐騙案的共同投資方"},{"start":739.411,"end":764.482,"text":"那回頭去了解看看那文策院有沒有可能也在被騙的當中那同時文化部跟文策院針對這個共同投資方後來涉及這麼大的一個步伐有沒有英女團圓那這個有性騷擾前科的這個公司當時我們在投資的時候有沒有把這樣的因素其實考量進去那包括這個相關內部的文化或相關的風評或者影響這一點我們當時有考量嗎"},{"start":769.141,"end":774.961,"text":"各位報告 我們都有做嚴謹的作為文哲元應該有機制 我還是請文哲元做說明"},{"start":776.038,"end":804.234,"text":"跟委員報告因為第一個這個我們當初這個場域國際是投資方共同投資方我們不是把錢給場域國際這第一個第二個當初他在申請我們共投的時候他還沒有發生這件事情所以當初盡職調查都沒有任何法律的盡職調查所以在這個申請案之前我們都有查詢這個司法院的判決所以當時你知道他有涉及這個權勢性性騷嗎他沒有被司法爭議沒有任何司法的判決或提起這個公訴或別的那所以是有還是沒有這個性騷當時只是有這樣的一個爭議"},{"start":805.495,"end":832.205,"text":"但是是争议还是事实我们没有去因为我们主要是看司法有没有判决那个次长刚文策院回答是说我们投资之后它才发生的但我们来看一看投资之前它发生什么那这个投资对象这个匈牙公司在文策院110年投资之前也就是108年就爆出了这个负责人利用职权性骚扰旗下的无双月台这件事情所以我们还是依贵判断"},{"start":832.785,"end":856.536,"text":"所以呢如果他們和解了沒有司法判決你就認為這個性騷不值得我們再去檢討是這樣嗎當然不是跟文女團圓喔那這個有性騷擾前科這個公司當時我們在投資的時候有沒有把這樣的因素喔其實考量進去喔那包括這個那所以事實上是有這個事實嗎這個我們沒有辦法去釐清當事人這部分"},{"start":857.72,"end":864.955,"text":"跟委員說明顯然就是因為在之前文策院的這一個相關內部的文化或是相關的風評或者影響這一點我們當時有考量嗎"},{"start":869.278,"end":895.791,"text":"跟委員報告我們都有做嚴謹的基礎投資的檢視投資的檢視是針對法定程序的標準所以包括像司法的檢視我想次長我能理解您現在跟這個文策院要說的禁止調查所以在這個申請案之前我們都有查詢這個司法院的判決所以當時你知道他有涉及這個權勢性性騷嗎他沒有被司法爭議沒有任何司法的判決或提起這個公訴那所以是有還是沒有這個性騷當時只是有這樣的一個爭議但是是爭議還是事實"},{"start":898.012,"end":907.796,"text":"我們沒有去 因為我們主要是看司法有沒有判決但是我必須要提醒啦如果他們沒有走到司法的部分去喔那但是呢可能說雙方是和解還是沒有這樣的事情喔我個人認為喔 我建議啊建議次長啦就是說我們今天在投資的時候您剛剛也有說針對文化內容時間暫停"},{"start":922.222,"end":930.129,"text":"好所以呢如果他們和解了沒有司法判決你就認為這個性騷不值得我們再去檢討是這樣嗎當然不是根本主席時間可以暫停一下嗎我剛還有幾秒鐘"},{"start":938.771,"end":954.545,"text":"對好 社長我想今天本席把它提出來是希望按照您剛剛所說的我們所有的投資要針對對文化內容這是主體第二個對我們文化的產業有幫助所以今天提出這兩個案子我是希望你們能夠回頭去釐清"},{"start":956.266,"end":963.89,"text":"不管是他們有沒有這個相關這個涉及這個詐騙的案件啦或者涉及性騷啦那或者是說這個投資方他們是根本跟這個文化關係不大的啦其實我覺得就是我們回頭去檢討今天並不是說你投資這兩個我們指責說這是完全不對的事情但是有非常多的點是值得去檢討的地方所以今天本席把它提出來是希望我們要回頭去檢討"},{"start":981.3,"end":995.76,"text":"那剛剛你所說的像這樣的性騷或許你說對啊他們沒有走到這個司法但是我們要不要去看看有沒有實際上有沒有這樣的事情那如果有那我們要不要去做考量那如果沒有那我覺得就可以大大方方在這裡去說所以我想本席今天在這裡齁"},{"start":996.561,"end":1020.008,"text":"我還是認為這麼多的事情不希望是我們眾多投資當中冰山的一角因為我們文策院也好文化部也好本來是一番好意可是我們文化部跟文策院能夠盡速地來檢討我們現行的投審機制同時將這個共同方也要納入審查的範圍一個月之內跟本席一個書面的答覆這可以做得到嗎"},{"start":1020.848,"end":1032.508,"text":"跟委員說明大概幾件事第一個 針對委員今天提出來的去做檢視 這個我們做得到那所以事實上是有這個事實嗎這個 我們沒有辦法去釐清當事人的這部分"},{"start":1033.676,"end":1053.446,"text":"跟委員說明顯然就是因為在之前文策院的第二個我剛剛是要跟委員澄清說過去的標準的確只用司法那接下來我們可以在當事人的部分進行比較多的蒐集我們很難做事實的認定因為沒有司法的情況下我們沒有辦法在這裡回答說這是真的還是假的"},{"start":1054.026,"end":1066.71,"text":"市長我能理解我都能理解我想我能理解你要說的你應該也能理解我今天質詢的用意所以我們希望就是更嚴謹那把我們的預算上能夠更大化的幫助我們文化產業這樣好不好那但是拜託我們還是要"},{"start":1069.591,"end":1073.834,"text":"一個月內我們還是把一個書面的報告給我好不好我想針對這兩家在一個月內是可以那其他的部分我們再看我們基礎投資的檢視投資的檢視是針對法定程序的標準所以包括像司法的檢視我想次長我能理解您現在跟這個文策院要說的但是我必須要提"},{"start":1088.306,"end":1088.886,"text":"好 謝謝萬本玲委員 次長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時45分）謝謝召委！有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：次長好。我們看到最近世界各國都受到美國總統川普關稅政策的影響，除了全球股市大震盪之外，預計很多產業也陸陸續續會受到衝擊，但是我們發現文化創意娛樂產業卻意外的逆勢成長，這可能是因為它沒有依賴貨運、運輸，受關稅影響會比較小，且受到經濟趨緩的影響，民眾的一般性消費可能會降低，這時候可能通常會窩在家裡面看電視、看電影、打遊戲等等，所以許多投資人在這時候都認為關稅危機對於文創娛樂產業來說可能也是一個轉機，在這樣的背景之下，事實上也證明文創娛樂產業的串流平台Netflix呈現逆勢成長，在這一片股災之中，我們看到它的股價上漲15%，第一季的營收也成長12.5%，淨利成長大概24%，表現是不錯的，預計整年營收也一樣會持續往上成長，所以它的執行長Peters說娛樂產業在歷來經濟較為艱困的時期都表現出相當的韌性，不過，我們對於在此時投入文創內容預算這件事情上，可能就要比以往更加謹慎，更講求策略。次長同意嗎？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["萬委員美玲：文化部為了要強化我國文創產業內容的製作力，在100年起由國發基金挹注了100億元作為財源，委託文策院執行國發基金這個文化內容投資的計畫，這當中包含事業體的投資，且投資的對象載明是股份有限公司，請問一下什麼的事業體可以獲得這個投資？"],["王次長時思：基本上還是要針對文化內容產業。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有錯，要針對文化內容產業，所以依照「文化部辦理投資文化創意產業事業及專案作業要點」，投資範疇跟對象是要有助於促進我國文化創意產業生態發展相關的事業跟專案，也就您剛剛說的要以文化內容為主嘛！","但是本席發現文策院投資案當中有一個「黃金稻埕股份有限公司」，它是隼鹿文化股份有限公司在111年1月5號找文策院共同投資的，並且得到4,400萬元的投資款，可是根據資料顯示，這個「黃金稻埕」主要的營業項目是餐館、餐廳、會議辦理跟飲酒店，這好像不符合剛才次長您所說的文化內容。而且本席進一步調查得知，這個「黃金稻埕」在104人力銀行招募的9項職缺裡有7項都是在招募餐飲人才，工作內容是做什麼呢？就是位於迪化街的一個福來許咖啡館還有發琴吧、酒吧這些工作，顯見這家公司恐怕根本就是以做餐飲為主，經營咖啡吧跟酒吧，請問這要怎麼去協助文創產業的發展？這個能不能說明一下？"],["王次長時思：委員，不好意思，因為這個投資案是文策院在經營，我可以請文策院說明嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：可以。"],["盧院長俊偉：跟委員說明，「黃金稻埕」這個案子是以文化策展為吸引的訴求，它的變現管道當然是餐飲，但這個跟一般餐廳是不一樣的，它主要還是用文化元素在做。"],["萬委員美玲：因為它當中有文化策展，但它當然還是以經營餐飲為主，所以我覺得這跟我們剛剛所說的要以文化內容為主要是有落差的。我們再來看看共同投資方「隼鹿公司」自己顯示的資料，它的業務其實就是包含了福來許咖啡館，甚至於這兩家就是「黃金稻埕」跟隼鹿公司其實是同一個負責人。這樣的投資案，次長您覺得合理嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，因為我們的投資其實還是有一定的標準，我們的錢才會進場。它這裡看起來變現是餐飲，但是它的投資在文化內容上可能指的是策展。基本上它還是要符合我們的標準，如果沒有符合我們的標準，我們還是可以再……"],["萬委員美玲：好。次長，當然它在眾多的營業項目當中主要全部都是餐飲類，有一項可能是策展。如果這樣就符合……我們是在想說會不會有更多其實是更適合的……"],["王次長時思：可能還要看它的……"],["萬委員美玲：我想這個由你再回頭去檢視一下，因為我們希望錢要花在刀口上，補助要補助對地方。"],["王次長時思：好。"],["萬委員美玲：本席一開始有說到，也是您所說的，現在投資文創的內容當然非常重要，但是也要謹慎。如果投資的內容當中對於文創或是文化內容是占少數，我覺得我們是要去多想一下。","另外還有一件投資案，本席也有看到一些問題，就是喧嘩股份有限公司的投資案。110年昶裕國際創投找了文策院共同投資喧嘩公司，也獲得文策院3,000萬的資金挹注。但是我們看到共同投資方昶裕國際卻在我們的資金進入之後，113年捲入了一個銷售垃圾幣的詐騙案。據媒體的報導，我看到也嚇一跳，不法所得恐怕高達22億。文化部後來知道這件事嗎？"],["王次長時思：有，後來委員在……"],["萬委員美玲：文化部後來知道？"],["王次長時思：有，事後知道。"],["萬委員美玲：如果文化部後來知道的話，你有沒有針對這個可能捲入詐騙案的共同投資方，回頭了解文策院有沒有可能也在被騙的當中？同時文化部跟文策院針對這個共同投資方後來涉及這麼大的不法，有沒有因應的作為？"],["王次長時思：有。文策院應該有機制，我還是請文策院做說明。"],["萬委員美玲：好。"],["盧院長俊偉：跟委員報告第一個，當初昶裕國際是共同投資方，我們不是把錢給昶裕國際。第二個，當初它在申請我們共投的時候，它還沒有發生這件事情，所以我們當初盡職調查都沒有任何法律的……"],["萬委員美玲：好，很好！次長，剛剛文策院回答是說，我們投資之後，它才發生的，那我們來看一看投資之前它發生了什麼？這個投資對象喧嘩公司在文策院110年投資之前，也就是108年就爆出了這個負責人利用職權性騷擾旗下的無雙樂團女團員。這個有性騷擾前科的公司，當時我們在投資的時候，有沒有把這樣的因素考量進去？包括相關內部的文化或風評或影響，這一點我們當時有考量嗎？"],["盧院長俊偉：跟委員報告，我們都有做嚴謹的盡職調查，所以在這個申請案之前，我們都有查詢司法院的判決事由。"],["萬委員美玲：所以當時你知道他有涉及權勢性性騷嗎？"],["盧院長俊偉：他沒有被司法爭議，沒有任何司法的判決或提起公訴或民事部分。"],["萬委員美玲：所以是有還是沒有性騷？"],["盧院長俊偉：當時只是有這樣的一個爭議……"],["萬委員美玲：是爭議還是事實？"],["盧院長俊偉：我們沒有去……因為我們主要是看司法有沒有判決這件事情，所以我們還是依規定辦理。"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以如果他們和解了，沒有司法判決，你就認為這個性騷不值得我們再去檢討，是這樣嗎？"],["盧院長俊偉：當然不是。跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：所以是有這個事實嗎？"],["盧院長俊偉：我們沒有辦法去釐清當事人這部分。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，顯然因為在之前文策院基礎投資的檢視是針對法定程序的標準，所以包括像司法的檢視它沒有去……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我想我能理解您現在跟文策院要說的……"],["王次長時思：沒有，我跟委員補充……"],["萬委員美玲：但是我必須要提醒……"],["王次長時思：不是！委員，我是要跟您說……"],["萬委員美玲：如果他們沒有走到司法的部分，但是可能雙方是和解還是沒有這樣的事情，我個人認為，我建議次長……"],["王次長時思：不是！我是要跟委員說，我就是要要求文策院在未來的投資審議裡面，把這個條件加入。"],["萬委員美玲：我建議在投資的時候，您剛剛也有說針對文化內容……時間暫停！主席，時間可以暫停一下嗎？我剛剛還有幾秒鐘！","次長，今天本席把它提出來，是希望按照您剛剛所說的，我們所有的投資要針對文化內容，這是主體；第二個，對我們文化的產業有幫助。所以今天提出這兩個案子，我是希望你們能夠回頭去釐清，不管是他們有沒有相關涉及詐騙的案件或者涉及性騷，又或者投資方他們根本跟文化關係不大，其實我覺得我們回頭去檢討。今天並不是說你投資這兩個我們指責說這是完全不對的事情，但是有非常多的點是值得去檢討的地方。所以今天本席把它提出來，是希望我們要回頭去檢討。","剛剛你所說的像這樣的性騷，或許你說：「對啊！他們沒有走到司法」，但是我們要不要去看看實際上有沒有這樣的事情？如果有，那我們要不要去考量？如果沒有，我覺得就可以大大方方在這裡說。","本席今天在這裡，我還是認為這麼多的事情不希望是我們眾多投資當中冰山的一角，因為文策院也好，文化部也好，本來是一番好意，可是我們能夠更嚴謹、更仔細，我覺得這樣對大家都好。所以我希望文化部跟文策院能夠儘速地來檢討我們現行的投審機制，同時將共投方也要納入審查的範圍。1個月之內給本席書面的答復，這可以做得到嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明大概幾件事。第一個，針對委員今天提出來的去做檢視，這個我們做得到。第二個，我剛剛是要跟委員澄清說，過去的標準的確只用司法，那接下來我們可以在當事人的部分進行比較多的蒐集。我們很難做事實的認定，因為沒有司法的情況下，我們沒有辦法在這裡回答這是真的還是假的，但他出現這樣的爭議，是可以去蒐集的。"],["萬委員美玲：好。次長，我能理解你要說的，你應該也能理解我今天質詢的用意。所以我們希望更嚴謹，把我們的預算上能夠更大化地幫助我們的文化產業，這樣好不好？"],["王次長時思：是。我們希望在程序上取得更多的資料，沒有錯！"],["萬委員美玲：拜託！還是要1個月內把書面的報告給我，好不好？"],["王次長時思：我想針對這兩家在1個月內是可以做到，那其他的部分我們再看文策院可以準備的程度。"],["萬委員美玲：好，讓我們了解好不好？謝謝。"],["王次長時思：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，次長請回。","我們接下來討論臨時提案。今天有委員提出臨時提案兩案，請宣讀。","一、","案由：","文化部於2025年4月11日訂定「國家人權博物館推動民間設置具轉型正義意涵場址作業要點」，並令自訂定之日起生效。該要點係為推動民間設置具轉型正義意涵場址所訂，依要點，可登錄為「具轉型正義意涵場址」者為有二，一為「得作為反省威權統治，國家侵害人權行為之現場」，另一為「有助於彰顯威權統治時期，國家不法與人民抵抗的紀念地。如受人權侵害者的生活起居，或於全國發生具時代性、重要性或獨特性事件之空間場域。」。","該要點之訂定，在鼓勵民間主動登錄具轉型正義意涵場址，具重要意義。然文化部在訂定相關要點後，將如何在民間進行推廣周知？鼓勵民間提報登錄？同時針對要點第八點所述，「經審議小組審議為具轉型正義意涵之場址，所有權人、管理人或使用人應推動設置紀念牌，每年並至少應舉辦一場歷史場址解說、講座或與場址及周遭場域相關之導覽活動。本館得就前述事項予以協助。」應如何具體協助民間？請文化部於一個月內向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：林宜瑾","連署人：陳秀寳　　張雅琳","二、","臺灣在推動性別平等上，一直非常努力。臺灣是亞洲第一個同婚合法化的國家，並且，根據OECD最新統計資料，臺灣性平指數為全球第六。然臺灣的婦女與性別平權並非橫空出世，婦女運動發展三十年，從鄧如雯案促成《家庭暴力防治法》、彭婉如的悲劇換來《性侵害犯罪防治法》，到玫瑰少年葉永鋕讓兩性教育延伸轉化成為多元性別教育等，不僅僅只是上述，還有更多在婦女與性別人權方面的重要事件，需要以國家級典藏機構保存文化記憶，讓婦女與性別人權在臺灣得以鑑往知今。","文化部做為我國文化館舍最高主管機關，目前針對國家級婦女與性別人權館，僅規劃可與臺灣國家婦女館合作展覽，然臺灣國家婦女館主要供辦公、活動、集會之用，面積僅330坪且位於行政大樓之一層，顯與國家級典藏機構之需求不符。","爰臨時提案，請文化部於六個月內，提出國家級婦女與性別人權館之設置規劃，比照國內其他國立博物館之面積與設施，重新評估場館地點，並提出建設期程。","提案人：范　雲　　林宜瑾","連署人：郭昱晴"],["主席：有兩個案子，第一個案子是本席所提，我稍微說明一下我為什麼要提這個案子。我在政府公告看到文化部在今年的4月11號有訂定一個「國家人權博物館推動民間設置具轉型正義意涵場址作業要點」，目的就是要推動民間設置具轉型正義意涵的場址。我覺得這個非常有意義，值得讚許。不過我想了解的是，未來人權館是否有積極協助的機制，去讓這個要點讓民間周知，鼓勵民間提報？以及是否將對民間有任何設置具轉型正義意涵場址的協助？","我認為其實許多民間轉型正義相關的社團都很重視這個議題，當然這也是本席長期關心的項目，所以我很樂見文化部以這個作業要點作為轉型正義往前推進的一步。只是具體而言，會想知道這個人權館將在這個要點的架構下如何協助民間？還有，就是想跟文化部了解，如果認定這個場址，會公告在哪裡？比照不義遺址設專區，會上網嗎？以上，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。這個案子我們很樂見啦！只有一個小小的建議，就是能不能讓我們時間比較久一點，讓我們3個月內再提書面報告？原因是因為這個辦法我們希望就實際的輔導案例一邊做，一邊把那個方式整理起來。這樣子的話，不但公布了，而且就會有實際的案例出現。","另外就是委員所說公布的事情，我們會把它跟不義遺址的網頁公布在一起，我們會增加一個新的項目，叫做具有轉型正義的人權場址。"],["主席：OK，謝謝。還有沒有其他委員有其他問題？如果沒有的話，這個案子就把1個月改成3個月，那我們就修正通過。","第二個案子是范雲委員所提。范雲委員有沒有要補充說明？"],["范委員雲：我補充一下。就像我剛剛質詢所講的，希望文化部能夠具體來規劃。剛剛國會聯絡人有講說「規劃」是不是能夠改成「評估規劃」？我是覺得OK，那這樣子時間可能就不要到6個月，就是縮短一些好不好？看文化部覺得怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：可以，如果是針對設置的評估規劃，我們可以縮短期間，3個月。跟委員說明，主要是因為委員後面提到這些建設期程、面積、設施，它其實會牽涉到比較像是建設的先期計畫，那我們比較沒有辦法。但我們可以把譬如說國際怎麼做的案例做一個整理，然後做一個評估。這樣可以嗎？"],["范委員雲：好。我這邊特別口頭提醒，就是以我自己辦公室研究的丹麥性別博物館可能會是一個最好的例子。"],["王次長時思：好，了解，我們會把它……"],["范委員雲：它好像是屬於他們的文化部，因為它英文寫Agency of Culture，我想這部分你們可以再了解。"],["王次長時思：好，謝謝。"],["主席：所以在字句上……"],["王次長時思：會變成是，最後「爰臨時提案，請文化部於三個月內，提出國家級婦女與性別人權館之設置評估規劃。」"],["主席：「之設置評估規劃」。然後後面還是一樣嗎？"],["王次長時思：沒有。"],["主席：後面都沒有了？OK。"],["王次長時思：謝謝。"],["主席：還有，我是不是建議，就是直接「爰提案」就好，就不用加「臨時」了？「爰提案，請文化部於三個月內……」這樣？"],["范委員雲：好。"],["主席：OK。然後就是「提出國家級婦女與性別人權館之設置評估規劃。」OK，那就這樣。","有沒有其他委員有任何問題？如果沒有，那我們第二案也是修正通過。","如果各提案有其他委員想要補簽，它在我的左手邊，請各位來補簽。","接下來繼續質詢。我們請陳培瑜委員回娘家質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}},{"id":"160528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc003d3d1a9a1bd06b5a01776dcf2b4a8ff9a3354dc8dbd3a6274d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:31:12 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法務部長兩位好主要是這樣我們先跟部長請教一下因為部長剛剛講說釣魚站早上六點多去拜訪"},{"start":28.988,"end":48.625,"text":"拜訪這個民眾啊那部長說這個是基隆人的習慣那部長可能沒有注意那我後來發現那個新聞已經開始在報這件事情那我想請教一下部長你認為基隆人的習慣是什麼意思為什麼要警察早上6點多去啊那個吊牢站早上6點多去"},{"start":49.412,"end":75.208,"text":"因為其實這個是執行面的一個問題當然我們那時候是有我是有瞭解就是說考慮因為基農基農因為在外地工作上班的很多所以比較早起床所以因為路途要因為他在台北市或新北市來工作所以比較提前來送達船票所以讓被傳換對象當然可以斟酌說我那時候是不是要請假"},{"start":76.789,"end":91.908,"text":"來接受這個訓問嘛所以這個其實是有考量到一個工作的一個情況一種比較體貼的一個做法但是如果說這個影響到這個當然我們是可以你的意思是說六點半就要把他帶走的意思嗎沒有帶走"},{"start":92.108,"end":119.091,"text":"是傳喚 正常的通知 那個檢察官傳票的送達嗎那為什麼不能用一般的郵務送達到6點半不是怎麼帶走 這一份執行面我們是不是可以請調查局局長來我想請教一下局長 我們先釐清這件事情當天6點半帶檢察官的傳票去是要馬上把他帶走 還是只是告訴他何時要到庭應訊當然就是通知他 就通知他而已"},{"start":119.571,"end":148.713,"text":"通知他什麼時候到庭應訊時間我具體的內容我就不曉得那我現在就我的疑問就在這裡如果第一個如果第一個檢察官是請調查官拿船票去找當事人請當事人跟著走我是沒有說具體喔請當事人跟著走那六點半到我家帶我走全家都嚇死了這第一個第二個如果檢察官是指示特定的時間到庭應訊那這個用一般遊牧送達就可以了為什麼一定要調查官去送達"},{"start":149.934,"end":174.439,"text":"個案的執行方式跟執行的內容我們都依照檢察官的指揮跟部長還有局長報告一下我自己檢察官也幹那麼多年我怎麼沒有聽說過有人幹這種事情我跟兩位報告到場搜索有可能六點半到場拘停有可能六點半但是因為這兩個是必須施以強制力可是如果今天只是通知或者是傳喚民眾的話"},{"start":177.279,"end":191.681,"text":"為什麼你早上6點半要送去呢就像那天在高雄你調查官你到現場一定要把某一個人帶走一樣那當然現場的民眾會開始會鬧哄哄嘛那我們台灣什麼時候走向這種"},{"start":193.514,"end":219.66,"text":"讓大人民恐懼然後好像辦集全國家的感覺了調查官可以突然跑到我家來就把我帶走或是調查官來6點半來我家按門鈴那我們也不認為說基隆人跟我們什麼不一樣他們沒有必要說你叫基隆人所以你必須起的筆跡還要早沒有這種事情嗎我想這個是委員誤解啊對 剛剛部長不是這個意思剛剛部長說這個是基隆人的習性啊不是這個意思這個是"},{"start":220.28,"end":240.902,"text":"這不是說生活習慣,我講說這是因為有考量到他一個工作的一個特性所以我們就在六點多,這是一個他們的一個傳辦的一個考量,這個不是我不是,就部長我剛講的,如果今天這些人是被害人,這些人不是被告"},{"start":242.023,"end":255.209,"text":"我再跟兩位補充一下這些人是被害人那我請教一下當天調查官送過去的調查官的船票是立刻要帶走開庭還是改天開庭"},{"start":258.858,"end":277.055,"text":"這個有記載他到的時間啊這個不是說來的話我就帶你去開庭對就是我剛剛講的嘛如果你今天是去要把這是一個傳票送達的一個時間嘛又不是什麼六點開庭六點半開庭部長我沒有說過這句話你不要誤解我的話你不要亂講"},{"start":281.039,"end":298.972,"text":"部長 送達有送達的做法 送達有送達的慣例今天對於被害人 你早上六點半去送達然後你說這是基隆人的習慣 這我不認同啦這個我不會講說是基隆人 是考慮到基隆地區的工作的特性因為他在外地的工作可能會比較早一點出門"},{"start":300.574,"end":315.842,"text":"那台北人也可能在外地工作,新北人也可能,那是不是以後全國的被害人我們不斷就點辦不動彈?當然如果說這個考量的話,我們考量說跟我們的事情...部長,部長,我不是外行人,部長,報告部長,我不是外行人,我們來這裡就講真話,好不好?"},{"start":321.545,"end":345.235,"text":"沒有人在早上六點半去被害人家中送檢察官的船票啦部長有的話麻煩部長你跟我說過往有哪些例子這樣子所以這個個案這個是屬於我也尊重檢察官的但是如果說這樣的話引起大家的如果你說個案我接受啊全國的特例啊就像北檢的林俊賢檢察官會二十年沒有檢察官去視察過"},{"start":346.335,"end":366.628,"text":"視察過醫院然後鄰居講大言不慚說他去醫院視察 一樣啊你今天就是在幹過往都沒有幹過的事情嘛報告部長如果你認為這是個案我可以接受啦那我們是不是就告訴以後所有的人你不能這樣做你這老民你在恐嚇基隆人嘛這部分我已經請這個檢察官在斟酌那個"},{"start":370.894,"end":398.926,"text":"去符合我們更溫暖的一個做法台灣什麼時候變成今天這樣我一直以為說我一直以來我認為司法是來對付壞人的什麼時候變成政治工具了我一直以來我認為國安法是對付那些境外勢力了什麼時候來對付的都是善良百姓這些年怎麼會變成這樣子啊我當年從社會觀訓練所結訓的時候我對司法的夢想不是今天這樣欸"},{"start":403.206,"end":422.337,"text":"這會讓很多司法人員難過啦其實我現在也知道北檢北檢裡面自己對於懲辦審慶金還有柯文貞都有兩個不同很極端的想法啦更何況北檢以外的那我覺得部長我們都是要希望說留下好的名聲給大家探聽啦如果說跟著政治人物這樣玩"},{"start":423.462,"end":447.31,"text":"不是司法人員該有的樣子我想跟委員報告我們不是跟政治人員玩啦我們不會跟政治人員玩啦好 沒關係我想說我想說給我們委員 給我們的指教我們都會深切檢討就像委員講這個我們回去有跟他交代說是不是可以更溫暖 更體貼的一個做法不是講政治人物玩我們沒有跟政治人物玩這件事情對於我們國家的警察官 法官"},{"start":448.03,"end":471.979,"text":"警察 調查官 廉政官其實我都非常的尊重因為這些人以前是陪著我從年輕到現在 一路大家都是一起作戰的戰友所以我也不能去苛責誰啦當然我要把一些有問題的制度拿出來更何況說我覺得今天的一些做法其實造成寒蟬效應你不要講別人 你早上六點半去被害人家送船票你會讓這些人真的會很害怕"},{"start":473.052,"end":488.844,"text":"然後你一個調查官跑來一定要帶我走然後他沒有他雖然有出示證件但他也沒有拿任何G票或什麼我也會害怕所以搞到最後為什麼很多人說現在變成寒蟬效應啊司法跟整個行政機關好像在對付民眾"},{"start":490.665,"end":513.974,"text":"這個我想說大家要釐清啦那當然有一些政客他們對於很多事情都在亂講亂帶風向譬如說我們都426我們一個集會然後就會有人說你違照文書沒有違法嗎其實我們一直在講的是執法的不公的問題我們一直聚焦在執法的不公就像剛剛講說翁曉琳委員自己也說違照文書違法那為什麼現在大家可以抗議這個"},{"start":515.871,"end":523.72,"text":"我覺得這是亂帶風向那這些人他也念過法律他不是不懂但他今天來這裡很多政客來這裡就是在騙人民嘛一直騙啊"},{"start":526.027,"end":541.038,"text":"從來沒有人說過偽造文書是合法我們都認為違法 該辦就辦但是我們認為執法要公平不要讓人民造成寒蟬效應這個執法公平 我已經一再強調檢察官絕對是勿枉勿重 不分黨派 沒有一時的立場這個是要精神檢驗的謝謝部長部長講這些話是我心裡的話 但是我希望"},{"start":551.192,"end":574.177,"text":"大家都能做到那另外其實剛剛吳孝遠也講錯一個東西他還沒講說韓國瑜罷免案然後什麼幾個死人連署其實我一直覺得奇怪偽造文書一個行為也是偽造文書啊這跟人數多少有什麼關係大家現在很喜歡比較啊罷蘭的死人連署比例多少罷綠的死人連署比例才多少所以你罷蘭的該死罷綠的好棒棒"},{"start":575.609,"end":598.27,"text":"我覺得這莫名其妙嘛 犯罪行為 犯罪就犯罪啊 還要來比人數的高低更何況 甘吾士要來講錯啊韓國瑜案子 高雄地檢署的不起訴處分書他是認為罷免的那個收件的團體 他沒有這個辨識是否是違簽的這個能力嘛這跟數量比例這有什麼關聯性"},{"start":600.117,"end":623.988,"text":"所以我覺得這些政客們最糟糕的就是他一直在誤導人民一直在帶風向亂扯一通他自己不是不懂但是就要讓自己假裝不懂然後來到處騙人民所以我現在看到的狀況然後我剛剛提到的就是說司法執行為什麼我們有很多意見因為司法的執行它有一個比例原則嘛手段目的的比例原則問題那我們現在認為說你今天你辦詐騙集團就沒有這麼用力這麼猛啦"},{"start":629.978,"end":654.859,"text":"對不對然後你辦犯罪集團就沒有這麼用力這麼猛你辦那些財產犯罪的那些洗錢掏空的你就沒有從來沒有這麼猛這麼用力過但是你今天配合的政治人物在玩這些人的時候你忘了手段跟目的在法律上面有個最基本的東西叫做比例原則然後你就說這東西構成犯罪啊我可以不抓嗎但是你不是啊你今天"},{"start":655.882,"end":669.787,"text":"大搜索然後大羈押然後我真的不知道在做什麼然後我覺得最離譜的是北檢北檢你搜索完國民黨的台北市黨部就算了你申請羈押黨部主委的理由竟然是因為他是那兩個黨工的"},{"start":672.25,"end":691.104,"text":"的老闆所以他一定知情所以推定他知情所以被北院打臉嘛我現在講的是北院的裁定理由因為我沒有看卷但是我講的是北院的裁定理由我再補充一次我講的是北院的裁定理由不是我個人的臆測所以被打臉也是難怪啦"},{"start":694.754,"end":717.775,"text":"不好意思我可能耽誤時間會比較多我們再提一下就是我想請問施部長 施部長不好意思我請教一個問題雖然我也是都蠻尊敬您的那您上次有提到就是我們在談那個行政中立的時候您有提到說就法律的精神政務官不可以動用公家資源去從事政黨活動跟政治活動我想這個沒有錯吧"},{"start":718.556,"end":733.602,"text":"那我在這邊也再跟各位報告一件事我們的行政中立法他雖然沒有包含到政務官但是他的立法理由寫得很清楚政務官不是沒有行政中立的義務而是要另立專法部長我有沒有講錯"},{"start":735.523,"end":752.378,"text":"沒有錯 我想委員上次有指教過立法說明所以我們這些政務官千萬不能說我沒有行政總理的義務而是今天 我不懂為什麼這麼多年下來 我們這個專法到現在還沒有立出來"},{"start":756.78,"end":769.467,"text":"我們這次有做一個解凍的儀表板也就是說從3月21號政府公布的國家總預算到今天其實還沒有任何一個人送解凍的案子過來這個都有別於過往"},{"start":771.008,"end":786.681,"text":"那以前喔 大家都是趕快來請立法院排解凍就到今天 大家都不送拖了一個多月 其實這個還蠻離譜但是我要跟各位報告一件事就像我們念法律 我們非常多的同學都現在在中央機關或是各地方的縣市機關他們會跟我們講實際情況是什麼啊"},{"start":790.1,"end":805.021,"text":"那我們有認識一些比較熟的國會人士私下也會跟我們講就上面要求不可以送解凍案我自己的同學三四十年的好朋友同學在中央機關也是跟我們說上面交代不可以送解凍案這當然我不是說那個部長您那邊"},{"start":805.982,"end":822.595,"text":"那就讓我一個心裡有個感覺是什麼時候開始政治人物政務官竟然可以拿公務員以及國人當肉票來為了他搞一個政治上面的攻擊一個大罷免什麼時候今天我們台灣走到這個地步了"},{"start":823.834,"end":846.663,"text":"因為今天這些我的同學跟國會聯絡人不同的同學他們之間沒有在勾串啦他們跟我講的都是同一個答案上面交代不可以送解凍案什麼時候國家走到今天這樣把人民的權益把公務員的權益來當作是一個政治攻擊就是要讓大家不懂的人能夠痛恨"},{"start":847.663,"end":875.937,"text":"非執政黨的立委我覺得國家怎麼會走到今天這個地步好 那今天執政院長出來叫大家趕快送 大家就狂送當時我同學跟我講說 我還笑我同學說哇 那你們下半年喔預算執行率很低 大家要狂花錢欸因為上半年一直跟公務員跟國人講說我們的預算都被刪了 都沒錢 什麼都不能做然後下半年不知道狂用預算嗎 我還在那邊笑他們但是我心裡是難過的 為什麼國家可以"},{"start":876.744,"end":897.952,"text":"完全罔顧人民的權益及公務員的權利只為了政治鬥爭你也不用跟我說沒有這件事情這個事情也有公務員出來爆料我想說最近你們也都有看到很多公務員也都出來爆料說他們的單位叫他們不可以送那還有"},{"start":900.217,"end":917.927,"text":"教育部的人跟我說 教育部的好朋友跟我說教育部不開冷氣告訴他們 因為被藍白三光預算 不能開冷氣我的問題是 你公務員幹了三十年欸我想請問你一個問題啊就算預算不夠用 也是年底的事啊為什麼年初就不夠用我都已經在騙人嘛"},{"start":919.605,"end":937.192,"text":"我說從來沒有這樣子啊然後他們有的三業務費是30%或多少%結果我們希望你不要把業務費拿去養網軍養特定媒體結果你告訴你的公務員說人家不給你開冷氣不給你馬桶沖水變成這樣所以我跟他們講一個我自己"},{"start":938.573,"end":952.4,"text":"跟他們講 用一個簡單的例子來比喻小孩子學壞 媽媽刪了他抽菸喝酒吃檳榔的零用錢就小孩子跑去跟爸爸說媽媽把我吃飯錢刪光了我快餓死了 我血糖低了結果呢"},{"start":953.516,"end":969.923,"text":"即使媽媽把她的零用錢刪掉一部分她的零用錢還是全班最有錢這就是現在的民進黨政府她拿到史上最高的預算還是最有錢然後告訴你什麼基礎的事都不能做這是我自己看到還有就是"},{"start":971.293,"end":985.885,"text":"我認為啦 如果藍白真的如同民進黨所說的爛三預算那你拿到應該是史上最低的總預算啊怎麼會是拿到史上最高的總預算呢這是一個人類最基本的邏輯啊我今天要亂砍你的錢 你拿到應該是史上最低啊"},{"start":986.625,"end":1002.801,"text":"我爸媽懲罰我小時候就是給我最少的零用錢讓我氣得要死啊怎麼會是我拿到史上最高的零用錢這都藍白亂算預算然後後來被人家掀出來說數字都沒有少還變多結果就說 欸怎麼不能留用開始這些鬼話全部都出來我現在看到的狀況都是這樣齁"},{"start":1005.759,"end":1016.223,"text":"那最近發生很多事情就是你說沒衛生紙沒冷氣護照要用完一個一個被踢爆其實這都是讓我們人民對於政府的信任度真的越來越低啦更何況你辦護照還要繳費"},{"start":1023.117,"end":1037.965,"text":"這兩天 今天有一個出來好像是哪一個部的他出來叫大家趕快補送預算結果他的通知是什麼請指示 以可將解凍報告發文自立法院什麼叫以可將"},{"start":1039.178,"end":1052.271,"text":"那就是大家都準備好啦上面交代不可以送出來啊所以現在請大家宜可將這個可以開始送了那為什麼政府要這樣綁架全國的公務員跟罔顧全民的利益呢這樣這樣對嗎"},{"start":1056.169,"end":1083.647,"text":"我覺得我自己很難過啦行政中立的部分我真的覺得還是希望不管政務官或一般的公務員真的要維持行政中立不是說不聽民進黨的新潮流人的話就是中共同步人所以最近呢陳水扁也變中共同步人啦林卓水也變中共同步人啦台大清大早就是中共同步人啦那我們只要不是投民進不支持民進黨的我們早就被貼什麼舔共什麼這國家已經走到今天這樣了耶"},{"start":1084.648,"end":1101.008,"text":"然後本來行政中立是國家民主國家最根本一個骨幹的精神所以你看美國總統換成川普他國務院還是堅持他的做法就川普的政府那些人跟馬斯克說要刪美國政府30%的國家總預算怎麼沒有人說"},{"start":1102.835,"end":1120.061,"text":"人民反而支持 結果沒有人民跳出來說你是不是中共同路人所以我覺得我們國家已經走到執政黨已經走到一個瘋狂的程度了甚至教育部長還出來說這罷免進入校園是言論自由什麼時候教育基本法已經被人這麼的不當一回事"},{"start":1121.421,"end":1147.166,"text":"不好意思 最後給我兩分鐘司法院跟法務部司法院 我想請教一下你們去年去年政府公告總預算案是113年1月8號你記不記得司法院什麼時候送解凍案沒關係 時間關係我直接講司法院是113年1月19號"},{"start":1149.483,"end":1170.208,"text":"1月8號公告市長院1月19號就開始送解凍案過來了那我想法務部長你可能也不知道法務部是1月30號就送來了而且一送來之後就解凍非常多解凍案只要一份報告來就解凍就今天我們政府是叫大家全部不要送解凍案因為讓大家痛恨覺得立法院就是爛三逸帥所以"},{"start":1171.092,"end":1191.46,"text":"整整1381億卡了一個月真正讓行政自愛難行的是行政院院長自己所以我還是在這邊敬告政府啦就是很多事情只包不住火尤其是我們有很多同學都在各個中央機關他們都會跟我們講實話那也有很多人出來爆料所以"},{"start":1193.385,"end":1214.69,"text":"我知道司法院跟你無關因為是行政院院長在幹這件事情但我覺得這蠻丟臉行政院院長為了要讓罷免能夠有效然後就開始搞這些東西我是覺得整兩個字叫丟臉行政院院長丟臉自己卡自己的預算然後要裝窮讓全國人來可憐他這個預算的問題我們再找時間跟委員做一個"},{"start":1219.031,"end":1247.581,"text":"像那個檢察機關的那個那個做事統三的那個國內女會那部分已經發生了我跟你講部長你回去問你國兩司司長當時他想要出國立牌綜藝我跟你講我立牌綜藝就是要他們留下那些錢你不要搞錯你去問你的國兩司司長對然後你今天解凍案一個月都不送然後你是為了你的法務部好所以你一個月都不要送解凍案了解"},{"start":1248.083,"end":1248.747,"text":"兩位我們先時間關係謝謝五位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":879,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時31分），好，謝謝。我們麻煩銓敘部長、法務部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位好。先跟部長請教一下，調查站早上六點多去拜訪民眾，部長說這個是基隆人的習慣，部長可能沒有注意，我後來發現新聞已經開始在報導這件事情，那我想請教一下，部長，你認為基隆人的習慣是什麼意思？為什麼要調查站早上六點多去？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實這個是執行面的一個問題，當然我們那時候考慮到因為基隆人在外地工作、上班的很多，有很多在臺北市或新北市工作，路途遙遠，起床比較早，所以我們提前送達傳票，讓被傳喚的對象可以斟酌那時候是不是要請假，來接受訊問。我們其實有考量到工作的情況，是一種比較體貼的做法。如果影響到這個，當然我們可以……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你的意思是說，六點半就要把他帶走？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有帶走，是傳喚。"],["吳委員宗憲：正常的通知是檢察官傳票的送達。"],["鄭部長銘謙：他是送達，是送達。"],["吳委員宗憲：那為什麼不能用一般的郵務送達，要六點半去把人帶走？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是帶走，這部分執行面，我們是不是可以請調查局局長來……"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請教一下局長，我們先釐清這件事情。當天六點半帶檢察官的傳票去，是要馬上把他帶走，還是只是告訴他何時要到庭應訊？"],["陳局長白立：當然就是通知他，就通知他而已。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，通知他什麼時候到庭應訊？"],["陳局長白立：具體的內容我就不曉得。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的疑問就在這裡啊，第一個，如果檢察官是請調查官拿傳票去找當事人，請當事人跟著走，我沒有說拘提喔，我說的是請當事人跟著走，如果是六點半到我家帶我走，全家都嚇死了，這是第一個。第二個，如果檢察官只是通知特定的時間到庭應訊，這個用一般郵務送達就可以了，為什麼一定要調查官去送呢？"],["陳局長白立：我想送達個案的執行方式跟執行的內容，我們都依照檢察官的指揮，他們在……"],["吳委員宗憲：跟部長和局長報告一下，我自己當檢察官也幹了那麼多年，我怎麼沒有聽說過有人幹這種事情？我跟兩位報告，到場搜索有可能六點半，到場拘提有可能六點半，但是因為這兩個是必須施以強制力的，可是如果今天只是通知或傳喚民眾的話，為什麼你要早上六點半送去呢？就像那一天在高雄，調查官到現場一定要把某一個人帶走一樣，那當然現場的民眾會開始鬧哄哄嘛。我們臺灣什麼時候走向這種讓人民恐懼，好像是半極權國家的感覺了？調查官可以突然跑到我家來就把我帶走，或是調查官六點半來我家按門鈴。我們也不認為基隆人跟我們有什麼不一樣，他們沒有必要因為是基隆人，所以必須起得比雞還要早，沒有這種事情嘛。"],["陳局長白立：我想這個是委員誤解啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：剛剛部長說這個是基隆人的習性啊。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是這個意思。這不是說生活習慣，我是說，這是因為考量到當地工作的特性，所以我們就在六點多，這個是他們傳喚的一個考量，這個不是我……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，部長，我剛剛講的，這些人是被害人喔，這些人不是被告喔，我再跟兩位補充一下，這些人是被害人。我請教一下，當天調查官送過去的檢察官傳票是立刻要帶走開庭還是改天開庭？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有記載他到的時間，這個不是說來的話我就帶你去。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是我剛剛講的，如果你今天去是要把……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們界定這是一個傳票送達的時間嘛，又不是什麼六點開庭、六點半開庭，沒有這件事嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我沒有說過這句話，部長，你不要誤解我的話，你不要亂講。"],["鄭部長銘謙：你誤導說我們就是帶走，不是通知……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，送達有送達的做法，送達有送達的慣例，今天對於被害人，你早上六點半去送達，然後你說這是基隆人的習慣，這我不認同啦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不會說是基隆人的習慣，是考慮到基隆地區工作的特性，因為他在外地工作，他可能會比較早一點出門，是這樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：臺北人也可能在外地工作，新北人也可能在外地工作，是不是以後對全國的被害人，我們就要六點半送達呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然，如果這樣考量的話，我們考量這跟我們的事情……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我不是外行人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們可以檢討，我們可以更體貼……"],["吳委員宗憲：報告部長，我不是外行人，我們來這裡就講真話，好不好？沒有人在早上六點半去被害人家中送檢察官的傳票啦。部長，有的話，麻煩部長跟我說過往有哪些例子。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案我也尊重檢察官，但是如果這樣的話引起大家的……"],["吳委員宗憲：如果你說這是個案，我接受啊。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那這樣的話，我們可以檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：全國的特例啊。就像北檢的林俊言檢察官，20年沒有檢察官去視察過醫院，然後林俊言檢察官敢大言不慚地說他去醫院視察，一樣啊，你今天就是在幹過往都沒有幹過的事情嘛。報告部長，如果你認為這是個案，我可以接受啦，那我們是不是就告訴以後所有的人：你不能這樣做，你這是擾民，你在恐嚇基隆人嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對這一部分，我們已經請這個檢察官就這部分再斟酌，符合我們更溫暖的做法。"],["吳委員宗憲：臺灣什麼時候變成今天這樣？我一直以來認為司法是來對付壞人的，什麼時候變成政治工具了？我一直以來認為國安法是對付那些境外勢力的，什麼時候對付的都是善良百姓？這些年怎麼會變成這樣子啊？我當年從司法官訓練所結訓的時候，我對司法的夢想不是今天這樣耶！這會讓很多司法人員難過啦！其實我現在也知道，北檢裡面對於承辦沈慶京和柯文哲的案子，有兩派不同的、很極端的想法，更何況北檢以外的。部長，我們都希望留下好的名聲給大家探聽，如果跟著政治人物這樣玩，不是司法人員該有的樣子。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們不是跟政治人物玩，我們不會跟政治人物玩。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想說，委員給我們指教，我們都會深切檢討，就像委員講的這個，我們回去有跟人家交代，是不是可以用更溫暖、更體貼的做法？而不是跟政治人物玩，我們沒有跟政治人物玩這件事。"],["吳委員宗憲：對於我們國家的檢察官、法官、警察、調查官、廉政官，其實我都非常尊重，因為這些人以前陪著我，從年輕到現在，一路走來，大家都是一起作戰的戰友，所以我也不能去苛責誰，但是我要把一些有問題的制度拿出來，更何況我覺得今天的一些做法其實造成寒蟬效應。不要講別人，你早上六點半去被害人家送傳票，你會讓這些人真的很害怕，一個調查官跑來，一定要帶人走，然後調查官有出示證件，但他也沒有拿任何拘票或是什麼，換作是我，我也會害怕，所以搞到最後為什麼很多人說現在變成寒蟬效應？司法跟整個行政機關好像在對付民眾，對於這一點，我想說大家要釐清。當然有一些政客對於很多事情都在亂講，亂帶風向，譬如說我們在426有一個集會，然後就會有人說：「你偽造文書沒有違法嗎？」其實我們一直在講的是執法不公的問題，我們一直聚焦在執法不公，就像剛剛翁曉玲委員自己也說偽造文書違法，為什麼現在大家可以抗議這個？我覺得這就是亂帶風向，這些人也唸過法律，他不是不懂，但他今天來這裡，很多政客來這裡就是在騙人民啊，一直騙啊！從來沒有人說過偽造文書合法，我們都認為違法，該辦就辦，但是我們認為執法要公平，不要造成人民的寒蟬效應。"],["鄭部長銘謙：執法公平，我已經一再強調，檢察官絕對是毋枉毋縱，不分黨派，沒有預設立場。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要經過檢驗的，委員，我們也是有發……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長。部長講這些話，是我心裡的話，我希望大家都能做到。","另外，剛剛吳思瑤委員也講錯一個東西，她講韓國瑜罷免案，然後什麼幾個死人連署。我一直覺得奇怪，偽造文書，一個行為也是偽造文書啊，這跟人數多少有什麼關係？大家現在很喜歡比較，罷藍的死人連署比例多少，罷綠的死人連署比例「才」多少，所以你罷藍的該死，罷綠的好棒棒！我覺得這莫名其妙嘛！犯罪行為，犯罪就犯罪，還來比人數的高低？更何況剛剛吳思瑤也講錯，韓國瑜的案子，高雄地檢署的不起訴處分書認為，罷免的收件團體沒有辨識是否為偽簽的能力嘛，這跟數量、比例有什麼關聯性？所以我覺得這些政客們最糟糕的就是他一直在誤導人民，一直在帶風向，亂扯一通！他自己不是不懂，但是就是要讓自己假裝不懂，然後來到處騙人民，這是我現在看到的狀況。","我剛剛提到，司法執行為什麼有很多意見，因為司法的執行有一個比例原則嘛，手段、目的的比例原則問題。我們現在認為你今天辦詐騙集團就沒有這麼用力、這麼猛啦，對不對？你辦犯罪集團就沒有這麼用力、這麼猛，你辦那些財產犯罪的、洗錢掏空的，從來沒有這麼猛、這麼用力過！但是你今天配合政治人物在玩這些人的時候，你忘了手段跟目的在法律上面有一個最基本的叫做比例原則！然後你就說這個構成犯罪啊，我可以不抓嗎？但是你不是啊，你今天大搜索、大羈押，我真的不知道在做什麼。我覺得最離譜的是北檢，北檢搜索完國民黨臺北市黨部就算了，你聲請羈押黨部主委的理由，竟然是因為他是那兩個黨工的老闆，所以他一定知情，推定他知情，被北院打臉嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我們現在不要去講個案嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在講的是北院的裁定理由。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們今天都不談個案嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我沒有看卷，但是我講的是北院的裁定理由，我再補充一次，我講的是北院的裁定理由，不是我個人的臆測，所以被打臉也是難怪啦。","不好意思，我可能耽誤的時間會比較多。我想請教施部長一個問題。施部長，我也是都蠻尊敬您的。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：您上次有提到，我們在談行政中立的時候，你有提到，就法律的精神，政務官不可以動用公家資源去從事政黨活動跟政治性的活動，我想這個沒有錯吧？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我在這邊也再跟各位報告一件事，我們的行政中立法雖然沒有包含到政務官，但是它的立法理由寫得很清楚，政務官不是沒有行政中立的義務，而是要另立專法。部長，我有沒有講錯？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯，我想委員上次有指教過，在立法說明的部分有提過這個事情。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，所以我們這些政務官千萬不能說我沒有行政中立的義務。但是今天我不懂，為什麼這麼多年下來，這個專法到現在還沒有立出來？","我們這次有做一個解凍的儀表板，從3月21日政府公布國家總預算到今天，其實還沒有任何一個人送解凍的案子過來，這個都有別於過往。以前大家都是趕快來請立法院排解凍，結果到今天，大家都不送，拖了一個多月，其實這還蠻離譜的。","我要跟各位報告一件事，我們唸法律的，有非常多同學現在在中央機關或是各地方縣市機關，他們會跟我們講實際情況是什麼。我們有認識一些比較熟的國會聯絡人，私下也會跟我們講，上面要求不可以送解凍案。我自己的同學，三、四十年的好朋友、同學在中央機關，也是跟我們說上面交代不可以送解凍案。當然我不是說部長那邊。這就讓我心裡有個感覺，是什麼時候開始政治人物、政務官竟然可以拿公務員以及國人當肉票，為了他搞政治上面的攻擊，大罷免？什麼時候我們臺灣走到今天這個地步了？今天這些我的同學跟國會聯絡人，不同的同學他們之間沒有勾串，他們跟我講的都是同一個答案：上面交代不可以送解凍案！什麼時候國家走到今天這樣？把人民的權益、公務員的權益當作政治攻擊，就是要讓不懂的人痛恨非執政黨的立委。國家怎麼會走到今天這個地步？","好，今天行政院長出來叫大家趕快送，大家就狂送。當時我同學跟我講的時候，我還笑我同學，說你們下半年預算執行率很低，大家要狂花錢。因為上半年一直跟公務員、跟國人講預算都被刪了，都沒錢，什麼都不能做，下半年不就要狂用預算嗎？我還在那邊笑他們，但是我心裡是難過的，為什麼國家可以完全罔顧人民的權益以及公務員的權益，只為了政治鬥爭？","你也不用跟我說沒有這件事情，也有公務員出來爆料，我想最近你們也都有看到，很多公務員也都出來爆料，說他們的單位叫他們不可以送。還有教育部的人跟我說，教育部不開冷氣，部裡告訴他們因為被藍白刪光預算，不能開冷氣！我的問題是，你公務員幹了30年，我想請問你一個問題，就算預算不夠用，也是年底的事啊，為什麼年初就不夠用？我就覺得你在騙人嘛！我說從來沒有這樣子啊。他們有的刪業務費，也是刪30%或多少%，我們是希望你不要把業務費拿去養網軍、去養特定媒體，結果你告訴你的公務員，人家不給你開冷氣、不給你馬桶沖水，變成這樣？","我自己跟他們講一個簡單的例子比喻，小孩子學壞，媽媽刪了他抽菸、喝酒、吃檳榔的零用錢，結果小孩子跑去跟爸爸說，媽媽把我吃飯錢刪光了，我快餓死了，我血糖低。結果呢？即使媽媽把他零用錢刪掉一部分，他還是全班最有錢，這就是現在的民進黨政府！他拿到史上最高的預算，還是最有錢，然後他告訴基層，你什麼基礎的事都不能做！這是我自己看到的。","還有我認為如果藍白真的如同民進黨所說的濫刪預算，那你拿到的應該是史上最低的總預算啊，怎麼會是拿到史上最高的總預算呢？這是一個人類最基本的邏輯啊，我今天亂砍你的錢，你拿到的應該是史上最低啊！我爸媽懲罰我，小時候就是給我最少的零用錢，讓我氣得要死。怎麼會是拿到史上最高的零用錢，這時候藍白濫刪預算，後來被人家掀出來說數字都沒有少，還變多，結果又說什麼不能流用，鬼話就開始全部都出來了。我現在看到的狀況都是這樣。最近發生很多事情，就是你說沒衛生紙、沒冷氣、護照要用完了，一個一個被踢爆，其實這都是讓人民對政府的信任度真的越來越低。更何況辦護照還要繳費。","這兩天，好像是哪一個部的出來叫大家趕快補送預算，結果他的通知是什麼？經請示「已可將」解凍報告發文至立法院，什麼叫「已可將」？就是大家都準備好了，上面交代不可以送出來，所以現在請大家「已可將」，可以開始送了。為什麼政府要這樣綁架全國的公務員跟罔顧全民的利益呢？這樣對嗎？我覺得我自己很難過啦。","行政中立的部分，我還是希望不管政務官或一般的公務員，真的要維持行政中立。不是說不聽民進黨新潮流人的話，就是中共同路人。最近陳水扁也變成中共同路人了，林濁水也變成中共同路人，臺大、清大早就是中共同路人了。只要不是支持民進黨的，我們早就被貼什麼舔共的標籤，這個國家走到今天這樣了。","本來行政中立是民主國家最根本的一個骨幹精神，所以你看美國總統換成川普，國務院還是堅持他的作法，川普那些人跟馬斯克說刪美國政府30%的國家總預算，人民反而支持，怎麼沒有人民跳出來說你是不是中共同路人？所以我覺得執政黨已經走到一個瘋狂的程度，甚至教育部長還出來說罷免進入校園是言論自由，什麼時候教育基本法已經被人這麼的不當一回事了？","不好意思，最後給我2分鐘，不好意思。司法院和法務部，我想請教司法院，去年政府公告總預算案是在113年1月8日，你記不記得司法院什麼時候送解凍案？好，沒關係，因為時間關係，我直接講，司法院是113年1月19日，1月8日公告，司法院1月19日就開始送解凍案過來了。我想法務部長可能也不知道，法務部1月30日就送來了，而且一送來之後就解凍，非常多解凍案只要一份報告來就解凍。結果今天我們的政府叫大家全部不要送解凍案，因為要讓大家痛恨，覺得立法院就是濫刪預算，整整1,381億元卡了1個月，真正讓行政窒礙難行的是行政院院長自己。","所以我還是在這邊敬告政府，很多事情紙包不住火，尤其我們有很多同學都在各個中央機關，他們都會跟我們講實話，也會有很多人出來爆料。我知道跟司法院無關，因為是行政院院長在幹這件事情，但我覺得這蠻丟臉的，行政院長為了讓罷免能夠有效，就開始搞這些東西。我是覺得只能用兩個字，丟臉！行政院長丟臉，自己卡自己的預算，然後要裝窮，讓全國人民來可憐他。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個預算的問題，我們再找時間跟委員說明。像檢察機關統刪的是國內旅費，已經發生很大的問題，刪了國內旅費，你知道嗎？……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，部長，你回去問國兩司長，當時他想要出國，我力排眾議……"],["鄭部長銘謙：國內旅費，現在檢察機關都因為那筆……"],["主席：因為時間關係，請注意一下時間好嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你說，我力排眾議，就是要他們留下那些錢。你不要搞錯，你去問你國兩司長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是什麼出國，包含證人還有車馬費，都是國內旅費喔。"],["主席：時間終止！時間終止！"],["吳委員宗憲：對！然後你解凍案一個月都不動！你是為了法務部好，所以你一個月都不要送解凍案！了解。"],["主席：好，兩位，現在因為時間關係，謝謝吳委員。","現在先處理會議時間，上午會議繼續進行到所有登記的委員發言結束、詢答結束為止。由於上午到現在都沒有休息，所以我們稍後在洪孟楷委員詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。","接著請王鴻薇委員進行詢答。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160527","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160527","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc072294fd32183b14816f08763592c0c249a3354dc8dbd3a629fa06f7c1a6a5e135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:33:01 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xt":"跟委員報告這件事我們當然可以來做檢討但在這個本案上其實跟這個中間的受補助人沒有據實疑告有相關雖然說我們在補助的時候是有這樣的要求但不表示你在外包的時候就可以不顧慮這件事情"},{"start":306.693,"end":330.731,"text":"那所以這個是特定團體組織的不誠實導致我們在稽查上的問題所以我們當時一直一再確定他都說沒有但後來發現根本就有那所以像這樣的防堵我們就會對於這個團體我們就會打上一個非常大的問號在未來補助的時候他如果沒有辦法提出完整的切結跟保證他的補助就會受到阻擋"},{"start":331.371,"end":346.625,"text":"所以這件事我覺得應該針對這個部分來做那至於其他合約契約一樣我們在補助的時候我們可以把這個態度跟這個做法告訴所有的受補助團體我們是在意這件事的如果他們發生了這件事情我們基本上就會影響到他們未來的補助"},{"start":348.427,"end":365.843,"text":"那是不是把你們要修補的就是說不管是合約或是契約看你們是放在哪個部分一個通案的處理那能夠再需要多少時間給我辦公室一個報告我覺得不是合約跟契約因為我們現在在合約跟契約上已經有了現在的問題是在特定的狀況下當他的合約契約"},{"start":366.704,"end":385.414,"text":"他又自行在外包或者是他不具實以告他那個部分已經牽涉到道德層面的問題已經不是法律能夠規範的了所以我認為我們在補助的項目上就盡量完整並且再把這個案例通知大家跟他說像這樣的案例仍然對我們來說是有問題的我們會受到質疑會影響到他未來的資格"},{"start":390.456,"end":419.493,"text":"那顯然他們認為對文化部說謊是一件沒關係的事所以我覺得那是不是能夠預警式的提醒他們而不是說像這樣一個個案之後被懲罰了那大家才就是知道因為萬一有些好不好那我想我認為是合約契約那你們如果認為不是合約契約那就讓我們看到就是有公信力的一種不管是說明或者什麼那在那多久時間可以給本席一個報告呢"},{"start":422.25,"end":423.711,"text":"我曾經質詢過婦女與人權館那是在2024年10月23號的時候"},{"start":445.423,"end":467.751,"text":"當時我有舉出這三個例子烏克蘭、韓國兩個例子那我們都知道韓國的性別平等其實跟台灣比還差距蠻大的我們是亞洲第一名對韓國社會有了解他們都有兩個一個是民間的戰爭與女性人權跟慰安婦比較相關另外一個是國家的女性史的展覽館"},{"start":470.192,"end":491.722,"text":"當時感謝我們李部長承諾說三個月會給我初步的報告提出可能的規劃還有就是那我的內容就是說要明確展示出我們台灣的女性那包含性別平等那爭取推動的歷程那今天我們的主題就是就是讓世界看到台灣那文化部的報告都是我們駐外的點"},{"start":493.403,"end":519.291,"text":"當有很多國際的貴賓就是立委很多人來台灣的時候其實我們的文化成就有一部分是民主跟性別平權的成就卻沒有地方可以看那我要講的是文化部的回應跟李部長承諾的差異很大最後跟我們說要用衛福部既有的台灣國家婦女館跟他合作去辦展理由就是說那裡有一個衛福部有一個國家婦女館"},{"start":520.852,"end":539.207,"text":"不知道次長有沒有去過那個台灣國家婦女館沒有齁那您改天可以去看或者請你們的負責的就是長官去看一下它基本上我常常去那裡開會它的英文叫做Women's Center它是個辦活動的地方而且主要是"},{"start":540.568,"end":557.57,"text":"婦權會在那裡上班大概有三分之二的空間是上班他們婦權基金會是行政院衛福部處理性別主流化蠻重要的一個類似智庫所以真正能展示的空間大概就是蠻小的那就是可能"},{"start":558.251,"end":574.938,"text":"不用花多少時間就看完而且也沒什麼資源做這個部分如果我們以一個你們最小的場館文學館不知道是不是最小的相對小的進屋面積就超過1500坪那更不用講其他的那我想請你們以丹麥性別博物館為例"},{"start":577.399,"end":597.679,"text":"這個館佔三成半樓那它原來是民間的1991年就被政府認可接收2021年從Women's Museum婦女館改名叫做性別館把同志爭取性取向性別多元的都放進去那已經會是丹麥作為婦女跟性別文化史"},{"start":598.721,"end":612.897,"text":"過去現在跟未來的對話教育文化了解的重要的場館那也有非常多的世界級的訪客我們是不是能夠以這樣子的音樂我們台灣是亞洲第一那他也讓我們就是"},{"start":613.637,"end":640.546,"text":"國外的訪客來台灣跟我們國內的民眾想了解過去現在跟未來的台灣婦女跟性別的文化的時候能夠有一個更好的空間能夠鮮活的展示呢那美國也有這樣的管政在建造中那當然我們的性別平等在很多方面其實是比美國做得很好所以文化部給我的那個文可以再行研議我今天有一個臨時提案能夠提出更完整具體的設置規劃呢"},{"start":643.058,"end":669.355,"text":"跟委員報告要設置一個新的管社尤其是新的主題大概整體上來說要進行的評估跟政策上的爭取預算上的爭取跟其他的政策的競合大概都有比較長的時間要走我的建議是我們從展先行因為真正去找一個硬體的場所建立一個管社它那個"},{"start":670.456,"end":687.748,"text":"耗費的資源跟人力的編制的爭取預算的爭取還有就是其他的不同的部會也都會有這一類硬體的爭取我會覺得其實不一定能夠符合委員現在的想法跟需要所以讓展先行"},{"start":688.348,"end":717.105,"text":"去做这一类的主题那个次长容我打岔一下已经有非常多的展现在没地方去据说慰安妇其实台湾也有一个民间的馆过去文化部也支持过它一直面临到空间不稳定的地方它已经有非常多实体的还有慰安妇阿玛的还有教育部的性别平等教育的就是一个纪念展它其实找民间团体做了一个在我们那个巴德路的那个中心事实上是个空间非常"},{"start":717.405,"end":731.155,"text":"有實體的從業永治的故事我們各方面其實都有一個很好的展都已經做過了它其實都沒有以族群作為分類所以我們現在各種博物館的管社都沒有所以要這個評估對我們來說的確有事實上的困難但我們可以開始進行評估"},{"start":735.418,"end":763.26,"text":"那就開始進行評估好嗎我想當然是先從評估先行啦可是之前的評估等於對我們來講就是好像文化部沒有誠意想要了解這個部分好不好OK好那就是今天有一個臨時提案我們待會再討論好謝謝好謝謝范雲委員次長請回本來在范雲委員之後有宣告說要來處理臨時提案可是因為萬美林委員是本委喔所以我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":731,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時33分）謝謝召委安排，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長，今天時間蠻有限的，有兩題要跟您請教，一個就是性平失格的條款，我們認為還有不足之處。另外一個就是我之前質詢過也有提出預算案，是婦女性別人權館的設置規劃。在MeToo運動，當時我們都看到很多藝文界被性騷、性侵的受害人站出來，我也曾經質詢過擔心國家的資源、榮譽被利用，感謝文化部當時積極的回應，去年10月已經修正完成與文化部相關的獎補助法規，也都增訂了性平失格條款，甚至把違反勞工的部分也放進去，我覺得這是一個滿大的成果，也感謝文化部的支持，我知道你們修了非常多法規，也都有跟我辦公室報告，我這邊只是以「國家文化資產保存獎設置要點」為例。","但是最近發生了一件很遺憾的事情，我們發現這樣的一個規範好像還是不足，在此讓次長瞭解一下，戲曲學院有一位長年性侵多名戲曲學院學生的老師，在戲曲學院站出來調查之後，發現情節屬實，他真的長年利用老師跟學生之間的不對等權利關係性侵多名學生，在戲曲學院調查後，被終身解聘。這位前李姓狼師當然有一些專業才藝，我們發現漢陽北館劇團──這是文化部長期補助的一個團體，還密切跟李姓狼師合作，而且這個合作是有接觸到戲曲學院的學生。我們後來查了相關的受獎補助文化團體，發現只要漢陽北館劇團宣稱那場活動是沒有得到補助，他就可以繼續合作李姓狼師，亦即文化部也無法可管，因為你們也要遵守你們相關的法規嘛！所以如果那個活動是你們有補助的就可以管，如果沒有補助的就不行，可是文化部文資局長期都有補助漢陽北館劇團，它卻可以繼續跟李姓狼師密切合作，所以這個法好像有問題，除了沒辦法規範到未補助的活動外，還有其他合作的形式。","這位李姓狼師被學生指控跟NGO成行，透過客家電視台外包節目接觸了學生，學生是當天到排練現場才發現是李姓狼師他家，學生當然會心生恐懼，因為這件事情在戲曲學院是一件很大的事，在我們去詢問客家電視台的時候，客家電視台第一時間還消極地否認，然後我們請他們召開記者會，事前都詢問過他們跟學生，但是他們在當天記者會中的表現很差，連我們身為執政黨的立委都必須要出來講話了，就是給你機會表達、去調查，當天的反應很不好，在這裡要謝謝公視後來決定接手這件事，目前在調查中。","我是以這兩件都是文化部轄下的事情想讓次長瞭解，如果既有的規範都沒辦法處理，最後還要兩個教文委員就是我跟萬老師（郭昱晴委員）站出來開記者會才能讓大家關注這件事情，我覺得從通案的角度來說，文化部先前制定的性平失格條款雖然已經處理了很多案，但還是遺漏了我們現在看到的合約、契約等相關項目。","我現在要講的是我們只針對重大的性平事件，因為我知道有一個工作權的考量，可是像李姓狼師這麼重大的案件，長年性侵多名戲曲學院學生，這種案子不會太多，你們是不是應該再把通案的、我們看到這幾件無法處理的部分做修補？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，這件事我們當然可以來檢討，但在本案，其實跟這個中間的受補助人沒有據實以告有相關，雖然我們在補助的時候是有這樣的要求，但不表示他在外包的時候就可以不顧慮這件事情，所以這個是特定團體組織的不誠實導致我們在稽查上的問題，我們當時一再的確定，他都說沒有，但後來發現根本就有，像這樣的防堵，我們就會對於這個團體打上一個非常大的問號，未來補助的時候，他如果沒有辦法提出完整的切結跟保證，他的補助就會受到阻擋，所以這件事我覺得應該針對這個部分來做。","至於其他合約、契約也是一樣，我們在補助的時候可以把這個態度跟作法告訴所有受補助團體，讓他們知道我們是在意這件事的，如果他們發生了這種情事，基本上就會影響到他們未來的補助。"],["范委員雲：那是不是把你們要修補的，不管是合約或是契約，看你們是放在哪個部分，做通案的處理？需要多少時間能給我辦公室一個報告？"],["王次長時思：我覺得不是合約跟契約的問題，因為我們現在在合約跟契約上已經有了相關規定，現在的問題是在特定的狀況下，當他的合約、契約又再自行外包或是不據實以告的時候，那個部分已經牽涉到道德層面的問題，已經不是法律能夠規範的了，所以我認為我們在補助的項目上就儘量完整，再把這個案例通知大家，跟他們說像這樣的案例對我們來說仍然是有問題的，我們會受到質疑，也會影響到他未來的補助資格。"],["范委員雲：顯然他們認為對文化部說謊是沒關係的事。"],["王次長時思：所以我們就要告訴他們這是有關係的。"],["范委員雲：是不是能夠預警式的提醒他們，而不是像這樣發生個案之後被懲罰了，大家才知道，好不好？萬一有一些……"],["王次長時思：我們可以再發通知，而且我們可以在補助上讓大家理解這個案例。"],["范委員雲：我認為是合約、契約的問題，如果你們認為不是，那就讓我們看到具有公信力的辦法，不管是說明或是其他方式。請問多久時間可以給本席一個報告？"],["王次長時思：好像有跟委員說5月中會回復。"],["范委員雲：那就5月中之前，好嗎？給你們充分的時間。再來，我曾經在2024年10月23號質詢過婦女與人權館的議題，當時我有舉出烏克蘭和韓國這兩個例子，我們都知道韓國的性別平等其實跟臺灣相較差距還滿大的，我們是亞洲第一名，對韓國社會有瞭解的就知道他們有兩個單位，一個是民間的戰爭與女性人權博物館，這個跟慰安婦比較相關，另外一個是國家的國立女性史展覽館，感謝李部長當時承諾說3個月會給我初步的報告，提出可能的規劃，我質詢的內容就是要求要明確展示出臺灣女性包含性別平等爭取推動的歷程，我們的主題就是讓世界看到臺灣，而文化部的報告都是我們駐外的點，其實我們的文化成就有一部分是民主跟性別平權的成就，可是當國際的貴賓就是立委等很多人來臺灣的時候，卻沒有地方可以看到這部分。","我要講的是文化部的回應跟李部長的承諾差異很大，跟我們說要與衛福部既有的臺灣國家婦女館合作去辦展，理由就是衛福部有個國家婦女館，不知道次長有沒有去過臺灣國家婦女館？沒有？那您改天可以去看或者請你們負責的長官去看一下。我常常去那裡開會，它的英文是Women's Center，是個辦活動的地方，而且主要是婦權會在那裡上班，大概有三分之二的空間是上班處所，婦權基金會是行政院衛福部處理性別主流化蠻重要的一個類似智庫的機構，所以真正能展示的空間蠻小的，可能不用花多少時間就能看完，而且也沒什麼資源做這個部分。","如果以一個你們最小的場館─文學館，不知道這是不是最小的，但相對小的建物來說，面積就超過1,500坪，更不用講其他的。我想請你們以丹麥性別博物館為例，這個館有三層樓半，原來是民間的，1991年被政府認可接收，2021年從Women's Museum婦女館改名為性別館，把同志爭取性取向、性別多元等都放進去，已經成為丹麥作為瞭解婦女跟性別文化史過去、現在跟未來的對話、教育、文化的重要場館，也有非常多世界級的訪客。我們是不是能夠以這樣的museum為例，臺灣是亞洲第一，當國外的訪客來臺灣以及我們國內的民眾想瞭解過去、現在跟未來的臺灣婦女性別的文化的時候，也可以有一個更好的空間能夠鮮活的展示？","其實美國也有這樣的館正在建造中，當然我們的性別平等在很多方面其實是比美國做得好，文化部給我的那個文是不是可以再行研議，能夠提出更完整具體的設置規劃？我今天也為此提出了一個臨時提案。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，要設置一個新的館舍尤其是新的主題，整體上來說要進行的評估跟政策的爭取、預算的爭取跟其他政策的競合，大概都需要比較長的時間。我的建議是我們從展先行，因為真正去找一個硬體的場所建立一個館舍，耗費的資源跟人力編制的爭取、預算的爭取，還有其他不同部會也都會爭取這類硬體，我會覺得其實不一定能夠符合委員現在的想法跟需要，所以讓展先行去做這類主題。但是設置的評估……"],["范委員雲：次長，容我打岔一下，已經有非常多的展現在沒地方去，據說臺灣有一個民間慰安婦的館，過去文化部也支持過，但一直面臨空間不穩定的問題，它已經有非常多實體，還有慰安婦阿嬤的資料。還有教育部的性別平等教育紀念展，他們其實找民間團體做了一個展，就在八德路的中心，事實上是個空間非常大、有實體的，從葉永鋕的故事各方面做了一個很好的展覽，這些都已經做過了。"],["王次長時思：像這類的博物館，其實都沒有以族群作為分類，現在這個連館舍都沒有，所以要對此進行評估對我們來說的確有事實上的困難，我們可以開始進行評估，但是要設置是很困難的。"],["范委員雲：那就開始進行評估。我想當然是從評估先行，可是之前的評估，對我們來講好像意味著文化部沒有誠意想要瞭解這個部分。","本席今天提出了一個臨時提案，我們待會兒再討論。謝謝！"],["王次長時思：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，次長請回。","本來我有宣告在范雲委員質詢之後要處理臨時提案，可是因為萬美玲委員是本會委員，所以我們請萬美玲委員質詢之後，再來處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}},{"id":"160526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc07e1588fd78b53e159ac021369aff85ba9a3354dc8dbd3a6240a1818b981201f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:34:05 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市長好 副局長我先請教一下副局長好不好副局長 委員好這個媒體報導說前軍情局局長也曾經示警說現在有可能共諜在台灣有超過五千名以上這樣的一個數字因為據報導講說1999年推估約差不多兩千名那過去這段時間增加了變五千名以上"},{"start":34.963,"end":58.411,"text":"涵瓜可能政府單位涵瓜可能企業民間等等的這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽還是確有其事這個是他的一個推估不過我們的一個掌握了解是目前來講是沒有那麼多人沒那麼多人對我們實際上有受理的有情資的一個收報的部分是沒有這麼多人是"},{"start":59.332,"end":69.998,"text":"掌握沒有那麼多人是我以為你會講的是說更多人因為現在感覺好像每個地方民進黨政府上任之後很多部會等等的都被共諜深入啦"},{"start":71.232,"end":97.712,"text":"我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對"},{"start":98.803,"end":113.141,"text":"有嗎好副議長其實本期有看了一下六大反制措施啊國安局不是第一天成立所以其實這六大反制措施過去有沒有做有做但我覺得重點在於一件事情重點在哪邊你知道嗎"},{"start":114.15,"end":135.271,"text":"有沒有落實啊我們其實法令都有啊2019年的時候那時候民進黨國會多數過半一次要通過國安法也通過啦我們有法在那邊啊如果說真的有共諜有任何的這種違反國家安全機密的話抓起來辦嚴辦重辦不是讓他在那邊"},{"start":136.513,"end":163.09,"text":"可以把我們相關的資料給竊取出去但重點在於是有沒有落實所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分落實的部分其實剛剛很多委員都已經在講過所謂的特殊查核對不對我們來先請教一下因為這為什麼會請外交部也一起上台就是這個何仁傑這一位那他過去擔任過外交部的資義是不是"},{"start":166.901,"end":182.47,"text":"那他從什麼單位然後再到外交部之後又再離開他是不是擔任過好幾個政府不同的機關的部門的職務是那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面只有他出任公務人員的時候的一次一般性的查核"},{"start":183.949,"end":199.61,"text":"報告委員他在進到國安會之前他從之前在國安會那麼有進行過特殊查核還有進行過特殊查核嗎是因為媒體報導講說他只有2016年的也是一般查核"},{"start":201.412,"end":217.064,"text":"2016年那個是一個特殊查核他是來到國安會那麼到本部服務之前有進行按照我們的這個慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核新進人員一般查核但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核國安會在我們到進到本部之前"},{"start":217.785,"end":243.322,"text":"本部之前有特殊查核,但是進本部就只有一般查核是的,因為他的職位是一等之一好,那這樣子就凸顯兩個部分,就是他的工作其實大家就講,就是說他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的因為他等於就在部長身邊,或是說他經手很多公文是部長才能看到,但是他會經手"},{"start":244.302,"end":255.961,"text":"所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間對不對那未來我們現在在討論到是所謂的特殊查核應該要去做相關的增加人員的一個部分請教"},{"start":258.55,"end":277.772,"text":"不管是特殊查核或一般查核都是由調查局來進行據我的了解但是我現在講的是我們的公務人員任用法裡面包括第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核那相關的人員的名單不是有各機關這邊要提出來嗎"},{"start":279.013,"end":295.571,"text":"我們目前來說有96個人必須要進行特殊查核是不是像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到前天滋疫應該要接受特殊查核我們認同這樣的一個想法那什麼時候提出來"},{"start":298.223,"end":327.444,"text":"我們可以在布裡面可以用採取比較更高的標準雖然說現在在不是布裡面採取更高標準是法令就有明文規定了我現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條其中第二項涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核但是名單要由各機關提出來授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛那我現在要問的是既然外交部都已經講是說要做這個事情那何仁傑的這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧是"},{"start":328.084,"end":339.957,"text":"那到目前為止外交部的動作咧目前外交部的動作我們是透過我們內部的政風調查好 那我想請教我們有沒有落實就是說我們既然有一個老鼠屎"},{"start":341.007,"end":363.986,"text":"我還是肯定我們外交同仁大家99%都很辛苦但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核然後來去做一個徹底的釐清所以至於我們這個部長在前天答覆委員的答覆我們這個委員會這邊說的一樣我們會對於相關的涉密人員進行特殊查核"},{"start":365.007,"end":371.936,"text":"你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據有法源依據你才能做特審查核啊所以什麼時候要提出人員名單"},{"start":375.599,"end":401.699,"text":"跟主席報告主席是這邊我是委員剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是那個特殊現在依照現在的法規規定特殊查核只能由公務人員身份的才可以那剛剛講到的核員他是用聘用人員所以目前的法規他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面那剛剛委員提到這個建議因為行政院現在正在"},{"start":402.259,"end":419.552,"text":"研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核可以更完備那我們可以把委員您的建議事實跟行政院反映讓這個譬如說未來可以特殊查核的那個人員的類別擴大那如果是這樣的話布裡面就會依照有涉及修法的部分對好 感謝來 次長是"},{"start":422.512,"end":435.258,"text":"在備詢台有一說一這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講我看到外交部部長講說應該要接受特殊查核很好啊結果有沒有修法有沒有動作"},{"start":436.837,"end":455.135,"text":"沒有看到然後特殊查核本來就有名單你要有法源於據你才能去做特殊查核名單會適時增加從一開始的名單到現在你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項這一個涉及國家安全跟重大利益它的名單與時俱進"},{"start":457.117,"end":480.429,"text":"那什麼時候你們再把各機關再把名單給報出來目前沒有看到案發已經兩個多月了沒有看到那現在又跟講我也看到就是說這是對於公務人員的部分那如果說他就不是公務人員他沒有適用的話你現在一直講說啊民粹的講我要用特殊查核特殊查核結果發覺法院根本不適用啊不是講爽的嗎"},{"start":482.123,"end":504.432,"text":"報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到"},{"start":505.572,"end":522.36,"text":"那是我們這個對修法的規劃的方向我們的部長跟院裡面行政院一起努力然後也請這個國安局副局長來副局長最後副局長我看到就是說因為他是各機關要提出來對"},{"start":523.741,"end":539.764,"text":"所以難免掛一漏萬是不是國安局要用更高的國安的視角來去通盤的檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核什麼樣的人員是一般查核"},{"start":540.645,"end":556.894,"text":"這個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出特殊查核的全管機關是福岡部是調查局來做特殊的一個查核那剛委員的一個建立部分我都理解調查局做查核現在我提的是說"},{"start":557.654,"end":575.29,"text":"每個機關報人名單出來給調查局做查核 那個機關報嘛我們現在的問題就是在於是說之前就是沒有把資義列進去 你沒有報出來資義它又不屬於公務人員 那現在說外交部說要做通盤檢討 行政院也說通盤檢討好 那我現在問的是說各機關如果還是一樣各自為政 你們自己機關去盤點說哪些人要送特殊查核 哪些人要一般查核 難免掛一路外"},{"start":584.978,"end":613.792,"text":"也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度你檢視我們國家哪些植物有可能他植物不夠高但是他金手機密多他也應該要列為特殊查核副議長這個我想一個特殊查核要有一個定義就是說以接觸機密的資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受那個透視的一個查核那沒錯剛剛委員的一個提議是沒錯但擔心說各機關報的話會掛一落萬那"},{"start":614.872,"end":632.197,"text":"這個部分我想我們可以結合其他部門通盤的一個檢討讓這些真的需要做特殊查核的人把他擬列出來做相關查核的工作副議長在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度"},{"start":632.737,"end":652.472,"text":"就是在於我剛剛講說 國安局列出六大項其實這六大項 各位同仁都很清楚你們有沒有做 有做 沒有落實所以現在要落實 兩個字執行到位 才能夠真真正正的防止相關的滲透否則的話都是作假的 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時34分）主席謝謝，麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長。"],["陳次長明祺：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。我先請教一下副局長，好不好？"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：媒體報導說前軍情局局長曾經示警，現在有可能共諜在臺灣超過5,000名以上，這樣的一個數字，因為據報導講說1999年推估約2,000名，在過去這一段時間增加了，變5,000名以上，可能含括政府單位，可能含括企業、民間等等，這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽？還是確有其事？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個是他的推估啦！不過就我們的掌握瞭解，目前來講是沒有那麼多人。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒那麼多人？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，我們實際上有受理的，有情資蒐報的部分是沒有這麼多人。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，掌握沒有那麼多人。"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我以為你會講說更多人，因為現在感覺好像每個地方，在民進黨政府上任之後，很多部會等等的都被共諜深入，我們當然很擔憂。","我再一次強調，站在這個立場上面，中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯，我覺得這個是我自始至終的立場跟態度，臺灣2,350萬人是我們共同維護的價值，所以我們當然要用力地來把任何的間諜都給揪出來。"],["黃副局長明昭：我要補充報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：國安局昨天說有六大反制措施，對不對？有嘛？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，副局長，其實本席有看了一下六大反制措施，國安局不是第一天成立，所以這六大反制措施過去有沒有做？有做，但我覺得重點在於一件事情，重點在哪邊你知道嗎？有沒有落實啊！"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實法令都有啊！2019年的時候，那時候民進黨國會多數過半，一次要通過國安法，也通過啦！我們有法在那邊啊！如果說真的有共諜，有任何違反國家安全機密的話，抓起來辦！嚴辦！重辦！不是讓他在那邊把我們相關的資料竊取出去，但重點是在於有沒有落實，所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分。落實的部分，其實剛剛很多委員都已經講過所謂的特殊查核，對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們先來請教一下，為什麼會請外交部也一起上臺？就是何仁傑這一位，他過去擔任過外交部的諮議，是不是？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，是，一等諮議。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，他是從什麼單位再到外交部的諮議，然後之後又離開？他是不是擔任過政府好幾個機關部門的職務？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面，只有在他出任公務人員的時候，有一次一般性查核？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，報告委員，他在進到國安會之前，他之前在國安會有進行過特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：他有進行過特殊查核嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為媒體報導說他只在2016年有一次一般查核哦！"],["陳次長明祺：2016……"],["洪委員孟楷：2016年他出任……"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，那個是特殊查核，他是到國安會。那麼到本部服務之前，按照慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：新進人員一般查核，但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核？"],["陳次長明祺：國安會是在進到本部之前。"],["洪委員孟楷：本部之前有特殊查核，但是進本部就只有一般查核。"],["陳次長明祺：是的，因為他的職位是一等諮議。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這樣子就凸顯兩個部分，其實大家就講，他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高，但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的，因為他等於就在部長身邊或是他經手很多公文是部長才能看到，但是他會經手，所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間，對不對？那未來，我們現在討論的是特殊查核應該要去增加相關人員的部分，請教次長。"],["陳次長明祺：不管是特殊查核或一般查核，都是由調查局來進行，據我的瞭解……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯，由調查局進行，但是我現在講的是，在公務人員任用法裡面，第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核，相關人員的名單不是由各機關這邊要提出來嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是，目前來說，我們收到有96個人必須要進行特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們現在在講的是說，像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到……"],["陳次長明祺：前天。"],["洪委員孟楷：前天。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：諮議應該要接受特殊查核，對不對？所以我們現在是……"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們認同這樣的想法。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那什麼時候提出來？"],["陳次長明祺：我們可以在部裡面採取更高的標準，雖然說現在在……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，這不是部裡面採取更高的標準，是法令就有明文規定了，現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條，其中第二項是涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核，但是名單要由各機關提出來，授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛！我現在要問的是，既然外交部已經說要做這件事情，何仁傑這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那到目前為止，外交部的動作咧？我們有沒有落實？"],["陳次長明祺：目前外交部的動作，我們是透過內部的政風調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我想請教，我們有沒有落實？既然有一個老鼠屎，我還是肯定我們外交同仁，大家99%都很辛苦，但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎？"],["陳次長明祺：這個要透過查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核，然後去做一個澈底的釐清？"],["陳次長明祺：所以正如我們部長在前天答復委員會這邊說的一樣，我們對於相關涉密人員會進行特殊查核，這是我們作為後來的……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據，有法源依據你才能做特殊查核啊！"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時候要提出人員名單？"],["呂處長世壹：跟主席報告，主席剛剛講得是沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：主席是這邊，我是委員。"],["呂處長世壹：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講得沒有錯，依照現在的法規規定，特殊查核只能有公務人員身分的才可以，因為剛剛講到的何員他是聘用人員，所以依目前的法規，他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面。","至於剛剛委員所提的建議，因為行政院現在正在研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核更完備，我們可以把委員的建議適時向行政院反映，譬如說未來可以讓特殊查核的人員類別擴大，如果是這樣的話，部裡面就會依照我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：有涉及修法的部分。"],["呂處長世壹：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，感謝。來，次長。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：在備詢臺有一說一，這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講，我看到外交部部長說應該要接受特殊查核，很好啊！結果有沒有修法？有沒有動作？沒有看到！"],["陳次長明祺：現在正在……"],["洪委員孟楷：然後特殊查核本來就有名單，你要有法源依據才能去做特殊查核，名單會適時增加，從一開始的名單到現在，你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項，涉及國家安全跟重大利益，它的名單與時俱進啊！什麼時候各機關再把名單給報出來，目前沒有看到，案發已經兩個多月了，沒有看到。那現在又跟你講，我也看到這個是對於公務人員的部分，如果他不是公務人員，他沒有適用的話，你現在一直民粹地講我要用特殊查核、特殊查核，結果發覺法源根本不適用，不是講爽的嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：報告，我們還是依法行政，那麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然是依法行政，所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的，要做就落實，就把這些事情給……"],["陳次長明祺：我們把……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要提出修法，我們共同來討論，但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體，我說我要特殊查核，實際上你現在的法令就是你們做不到！"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，那個是我們對於修法的規劃方向，我們部長跟行政院會一起努力，也請貴院能夠一起來……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我請國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，副局長，因為它是各機關要提出來，所以難免掛一漏萬，是不是國安局要用更高的國安視角去通盤檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核、什麼樣的人員是一般查核，這一個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出？來，請講。"],["黃副局長明昭：特殊查核的權管機關是法務部，是調查局來做特殊查核，剛剛委員建議的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：副局長，我都理解調查局做查核，現在我提的是說，每個機關報名單出來給調查局做查核，由那個機關報嘛！我們現在的問題是在於之前沒有把諮議列進去，你沒有報出來，諮議他又不屬於公務人員，所以現在外交部說要做通盤檢討，行政院也說通盤檢討。","我現在問的是，各機關如果還是一樣各自為政，你們自己機關去盤點哪些人要送特殊查核、哪些人要一般查核，難免掛一漏萬，也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度，你檢視我們國家有哪些職務，可能他的職務不夠高但是他經手機密多，他也應該要列為特殊查核。"],["黃副局長明昭：我想特殊查核要有一個定義，就是以接觸機密資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受特殊查核，剛剛委員的提議是沒錯，擔心各機關報的話會掛一漏萬，這個部分我們可以結合其它部門做通盤的檢討，把真的需要做特殊查核的這些人擬列出來，做相關查核的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，副局長，在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度，我剛剛說國安局列出六大項，其實這六大項各位同仁都很清楚，你們有沒有做？有做，但沒有落實，所以現在要「落實」兩個字執行到位，才能夠真真正正地防止相關的滲透，否則的話都是做假的。以上，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。","接下來由徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}},{"id":"160525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0057edc5e30a022b57fe8c6252e35fc4a9a3354dc8dbd3a6273a7b2597b81be3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:34:37 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謝謝主席那我們是不是有請郭部長我們請郭部長 謝謝"},{"start":17.918,"end":46.795,"text":"各位好部長剛剛聽到就是邱委員跟你在聊我們一些科技產業面對這樣對等關稅那他未來整個關稅的影響到出口那部長也說你基本上你還是抱持著樂觀的態度但是我要講的就是說事實上台灣不只科技產業除了科技產業之外傳統產業面對這一次的關稅仍然是一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":47.945,"end":74.791,"text":"這個挑戰來自於說雖然川普現在用90天的緩衝期稅率10%但是稅率10%還是提升了關稅還是提高了啦所以基本上成本被拉高是一件事情所以現在我們這整個傳統產業現在最需要的就是經濟部你要大家協助讓他們去開發更多的國際市場這件事我想部長這個是應該要做的吧"},{"start":77.148,"end":100,"text":"確實是如此啦就是說我們美國的市場大概佔我們整個出口大概23%目前是大概我們最重要的出口國嘛但是只有3%嘛這種世界裡面除了美國以外還有77%的市場在美國以外的地方我們當然就是希望把這個市場分散分散我們幫助傳產傳統產業事實上這個美國"},{"start":104.822,"end":117.23,"text":"並不是每一家公司都認為它是最重要的部分所以我們就開發部長我要跟你講因為我們一直在講我們跟美國互補我們的產業跟美國互補那個是指在科技產業但是傳統產業沒有傳統產業就競爭了如果在競爭的情況之下我們怎麼去保護這個傳統產業像我們有很多工具機的產業我們這個傳統的這個"},{"start":130.261,"end":153.541,"text":"這一個鋼鐵的上下游產業 這些都是傳統產業但是他們在面對關稅衝擊的時候他們現在很擔心的就是如果未來美國因為關稅的一個成本提高 那他們企業競爭力要怎麼保持就是他們要發生的事情所以快要讓他們發生的事情 我覺得我們要來協助這一些傳統產業去參加國際的一個展覽甚至他們來"},{"start":159.085,"end":168.753,"text":"在台灣舉辦跨國的他們的這一些跨國的這些策展都很重要所以我覺得我們除了這個800億我們的一個追加預算就要有很大的預算要來補助這裡的企業讓他們可以再來"},{"start":176.159,"end":201.169,"text":"反電爛或是讓他們出去外國去接觸更多的市場因為過去這些市場對台灣來說我們可能說我們過去就依賴美國市場或是依賴中國市場現在不一樣了一定要有這個分散風險讓我們的產業在面對國際衝擊尤其川普的政策變化每天都在變化的情況之下如何讓他們撐過這樣的一個國際上的一個變局"},{"start":205.071,"end":205.251,"text":"我認為我們經濟部責無旁貸"},{"start":229.498,"end":232.2,"text":"代表,國內辦理會展,來輔導業者對新商品的發表,訂定來合作"},{"start":244.785,"end":264.926,"text":"開拓美國以外的新市場所以所有的金額有100億部長這100億所以我看到的有很多細部的規範比方說補助公司或商號去參加國外的展覽或者是補助工協會參加國際展覽然後你看補助的金額也寫到了312萬到382萬"},{"start":267.589,"end":295.168,"text":"那這樣的金額對於這些工學會在申請的時候是方便的嗎?還是說審查的過程太久,讓他們有時候都覺得說我要處理這條錢,現在這麼久有時候一些協會,這些企業企業界啦,說真的本身也並不是說都沒有都沒有錢啦,他們可能會自己開啦,但是那時候政府在審查這一些這一些他們補助的時候的力道跟速度就變得很重要囉"},{"start":297.791,"end":311.003,"text":"這齁 報告委員 我想這是都這樣啦 過去的做法 可能大家有一點怨言不過今後我們的做法比較不一樣 我們今後做法只要是以國家 我們統一對外來說 希望辦一個比較大型的台灣館"},{"start":315.347,"end":323.571,"text":"大小的抽象都在台灣館裡面 讓我們來做通一電納所以讓來參觀的人可以看到 哇這很大隻 這是對的 看台灣兩年沒有錯 像部長 像東京食品展雖然是農業部 但是台灣的企業都是很台灣是去參加的第二大"},{"start":339.08,"end":356.532,"text":"國家那現在像大阪的世博台灣也是有參加所以事實上我要講的就是說我們除了去參加國際的如果台灣的工協會有能量在台灣舉辦國際展的時候經濟部更需要幫忙我們當然會幫助就是說不管是他們的資金或什麼我覺得經濟部這裡可以到好三天就是要到三天好那我再問第二個問題這個部長這個藥廠的部分"},{"start":368.5,"end":385.115,"text":"經濟部管嗎?還是都衛福部管?經濟部管藥廠經濟部還是要管嘛那這一次藥品吼那川普已經說變成說要展開這個國安調查那所以如果未來藥品在美國科關稅的時候我想第一個會衝擊的就是學民藥"},{"start":386.571,"end":401.512,"text":"玄冥藥 那台灣的藥廠還是以玄冥藥為主因為台灣在製作專利藥的時候有兩個問題第一 我覺得衛福部官員也可以說明一下第一個 我們審查期間太久"},{"start":402.588,"end":430.943,"text":"台灣的審查期間 藥品的審查期間太久使得台灣很多這個新藥的開發事實上是曠日廢時的第二個 台灣的學名藥我們現在最大的出口國還是美國所以未來如果美國對我們的學名藥廠我們的學名藥他們對所有的藥品科關稅的時候最大的衝擊一定是學名藥那學名藥就會直接影響到未來整個藥品的定價"},{"start":431.883,"end":450.496,"text":"那台灣很可惜,台灣的很多藥我們國內製造,國內有製造但是台灣卻沒有辦法通過我們自己食藥署的審查使得我們這個學名藥是出口到了美國在美國那邊再把它進回來很矛盾"},{"start":451.961,"end":458.927,"text":"過去都有這樣的狀況那這部分好是不是先請衛福部來說明一下我們現在整個對於藥廠的這個產業佈局你們要怎麼應應川普的關稅的國安調查"},{"start":463.468,"end":483.495,"text":"跟委員報告第一個是我國目前出口到美國的藥品那以去年為例的話大概佔我們所有藥品出口的37%但它的總值是最高嘛對不對我們出口去年是第二名大概只佔3.3億美元左右3億美元左右那我國的藥品產業事實上它是個內銷大於出口的一個狀況"},{"start":484.855,"end":502.965,"text":"那其實是輸入的部分是更高那對於藥廠出口的部分我們也目前都有跟這些主要的幾個出口商有做溝通也去了解一下他們的狀況那目前他們的判定是暫時是不會有什麼影響那將來我們會鼓勵他們還是以分散市場比如說往歐洲跟東南亞的方式去分散這個風險 以上"},{"start":505.717,"end":519.088,"text":"這個衛福部副署長事實上分散市場這件事是經濟部要去提名衛福部你們要思考的就是說台灣這些藥廠他們長久以來的過病就是說他們很多藥在國外沒辦法用"},{"start":522.217,"end":540.568,"text":"在國內沒辦法用在國外是可以使用的但是台灣製造台灣製造外國在使用所以我們很多我們很多需要這個藥的人是要出口去買藥拿回來這件事情可以呈現出我們衛福部在跟這些藥廠的互動太貴"},{"start":543.353,"end":558.435,"text":"這件事很矛盾啊如果這個藥在美國FDA可以被使用但是很相對的台灣卻沒有同意然後要讓這些人還要去出口帶回來那未來整個成本提高的情況之下對藥廠更不利啊這部分是不是可以檢討一下"},{"start":559.196,"end":574.48,"text":"包括委員之後我們會檢討不過跟委員補充說明一下其實我們目前剛委員講的狀況應該是指原料藥的部分目前我們國產的原料確實它是以出口為主那國內的製劑廠目前在使用我們國產自製的原料大概比例只有到15%那這個部分我們會鼓勵去輔導國內的製劑廠盡量能夠擴大使用我們的國產原料藥的部分"},{"start":580.957,"end":586.084,"text":"我覺得這些問題事實上還很多啦也不是今天這樣講這麼單純因為時間有限啦我是想既然美國都已經針對藥品展開了國安調查未來整個藥品會受到的衝擊會很大"},{"start":596.409,"end":610.901,"text":"所以如何我們經濟部也好衛福部也好如何在這個時候協助我們這些藥廠也是一樣他們會有很大的很多關卡要去面對這都我們政府都要最幫忙去協助他們好不好是好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時34分）謝謝主席，那我們是不是有請郭部長？"],["主席：我們請郭部長。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：召委好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，剛剛聽到邱委員跟你聊我們一些科技產業面對對等關稅，未來整個關稅的影響到出口，部長也說，基本上你還是抱持著樂觀的態度，但是我要講的就是，事實上，臺灣不只科技產業，除了科技產業之外，傳統產業面對這一次的關稅，仍然是一個很大的挑戰，雖然川普現在用90天的緩衝期，稅率10%，但是關稅還是提高了，所以基本上成本被拉高是一件事情，所以現在我們整個傳統產業最需要的就是經濟部的協助，讓他們去開發更多的國際市場，這一件事是部長應該要做的。"],["郭部長智輝：確實是如此。美國的市場大概占我們整個出口23%。"],["蔡委員易餘：目前大概是我們最重要的出口國。"],["郭部長智輝：占23%。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["郭部長智輝：在這個世界，除了美國之外，還有77%的市場在美國以外的地方。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯。"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然希望把市場分散，我們幫助傳統產業，事實上，並不是每一家公司都認為美國市場是最重要的部分，所以，我們就開發包括……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我要跟你講，因為我們一直在講我們的產業跟美國互補，那個是指科技產業，但是傳統產業沒有，傳統產業就是競爭關係了。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果在競爭的情況之下，我們怎麼去保護這些傳統產業？像我們有很多工具機的產業、傳統的鋼鐵上下游產業，這些都是傳統產業，他們在面對關稅衝擊的時候，他們現在很擔心的就是，如果未來因為美國關稅造成成本提高，那他們企業競爭力要怎麼保持？就是他們要打開新的市場。既然要讓他們打開新的市場，我覺得我們要來協助這一些傳統產業去參加國際的展覽，甚至在臺灣舉辦跨國的策展，這些都很重要，所以我覺得我們除了800億追加預算之外，還要有很大的預算補助這些企業，讓他們可以在國內辦展覽，或是讓他們出國去看，去接觸更多的市場。因為過去臺灣可能就依賴美國市場或中國市場，現在不一樣了，一定要分散風險，讓我們的產業在面對國際衝擊，尤其在川普的政策每天都在變化的情況之下，如何讓他們撐過這樣的國際上的變局，我覺得經濟部責無旁貸。"],["郭部長智輝：是。報告委員，基本上在國際活動裡面，我們有三項措施：第一個是開拓國際市場的計畫，包括Taiwan Select，這是第一個。第二個是補助企業來參加國際展覽。第三個是協助公協會來辦理貿易推廣的活動，這是對國外的部分，我們總共有100億臺幣。第一，在國內辦理會展活動時給他們補助。第二，輔導我們的業者對新產品的發表等等，協助他們開拓美國以外的新市場；所以所有的金額有100億。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這100億我看到有很多細部的規範，比方說，補助公司或商號去參加國外的展覽，或者是補助公協會參加國際展覽，然後你看補助的金額也寫312萬到382萬，這樣的金額對於這些公協會在申請的時候是方便的嗎？還是說審查的過程太久，讓他們有時候都覺得，他們要出去，這筆錢審查這麼久，說真的，企業界也並不是都沒有錢，他們可能會自己出錢，不過政府在審查這一些補助時的力道跟速度就變得很重要了。"],["郭部長智輝：是。報告委員，過去的做法可能讓大家有一些怨言，不過今後我們的做法比較不一樣，我們今後的做法是由國家統一對外辦一個比較大型的臺灣館，我們的大小廠商都在臺灣館裡面，一起統一展覽，所以讓來參觀的人可以一看到就說：「哇！這這麼大間，這是哪一個？」喔，看到「臺灣」兩個字。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯，部長，像東京食品展雖然是農業部，但是臺灣的企業都是很……臺灣是去參加的第二大國家……"],["郭部長智輝：是，但是……"],["蔡委員易餘：現在大阪的世博臺灣也是有參加，所以事實上我要講的就是我們除了去參加國際的，如果臺灣的公協會有能量在臺灣舉辦國際展的時候，經濟部更需要幫忙。"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然會幫助，我們會幫助。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是不管是他們的租金或什麼，我覺得經濟部可以幫忙的就要幫忙。"],["郭部長智輝：這個沒問題，我們會儘量來幫忙。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。我再問第二個問題，部長，藥廠的部分是經濟部管嗎？還是都衛福部管？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部管。"],["蔡委員易餘：藥廠經濟部還是要管嘛，這一次對藥品川普已經變成說要展開國安調查，所以如果未來藥品在美國課關稅的時候，我想第一個會衝擊的就是學名藥，臺灣的藥廠還是以學名藥為主，因為臺灣在製作專利藥的時候有兩個問題，第一個我覺得衛福部官員也可以說明一下，第一個是我們審查期間太久，臺灣的藥品審查期間太久，使得臺灣很多新藥的開發事實上是曠日廢時的；第二個，臺灣的學名藥現在最大的出口國還是美國，所以未來如果美國對有藥品課關稅的時候，最大的衝擊一定是學名藥，學名藥就會直接影響到未來整個藥品的定價，那臺灣很可惜欸，臺灣的很多藥是我們國內製造，國內有製造喔，但是臺灣卻沒有辦法通過我們自己食藥署的審查，使得我們這個學名藥是出口到了美國，在美國那邊再把它進回來，很矛盾！過去都有這樣的狀況，這部分是不是先請衛福部來說明一下，我們現在整個對於藥廠的產業布局，你們要怎麼因應川普的關稅國安調查？"],["王副署長德原：跟委員報告，第一個是我國目前出口到美國的藥品，以去年為例大概占我們所有藥品出口的37%，但它的總值大概……"],["蔡委員易餘：是最高嘛，對不對？我們出口……"],["王副署長德原：去年是第二名，大概只占3億美元左右，我國的藥品產業事實上是一個內銷大於出口的狀況，其實輸入的部分是更高。對於藥廠出口的部分我們目前都有跟這些主要的幾個出口商做溝通，也去了解一下他們的狀況，目前他們的判定是暫時不會有什麼影響，將來我們會鼓勵他們還是分散市場，比如說以往歐洲跟東南亞的方式去分散這個風險。以上。"],["蔡委員易餘：衛福部副署長，事實上分散市場這件事是經濟部要去幫他們拚的，衛福部你們要思考的就是臺灣這一些藥廠長久以來詬病的是他們很多藥在國內沒辦法用，但在國外是可以使用的喔，是臺灣製造，臺灣製造外國在使用，所以我們很多需要這個藥的人是要出口去買藥拿回來，這件事情可以呈現出我們衛福部跟這些藥廠的互動太過硬，這件事很矛盾啊，如果這個藥在美國FDA可以被使用，但是相對的臺灣卻沒有同意，然後讓這些人還要去出口帶回來，未來在整個成本提高的情況之下對藥廠更不利啊，這部分是不是可以檢討一下？"],["王副署長德原：報告委員，之後我們會檢討。不過跟委員補充說明一下，其實剛剛委員講的狀況應該是指原料藥的部分，目前我們國產的原料藥確實是以出口為主，國內的製劑廠目前使用我們國產自製的原料藥大概比例只有15%，這個部分我們會鼓勵輔導國內的製劑廠儘量能夠擴大使用我們國產原料藥的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這些問題事實上還很多啦，也不是今天講得這麼單純，因為時間有限。我是想既然美國都已經針對藥品展開了國安調查，未來整個藥品受到的衝擊會很大，所以經濟部也好、衛福部也好，如何在這個時候協助我們這些藥廠，他們也是一樣會有很大、很多關卡要去面對，這些我們政府都要想辦法去協助他們，好不好？"],["王副署長德原：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["王副署長德原：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝召委。我接著召委剛剛講到的一點。部長，不好意思，如果國際來到臺灣辦國際展的時候我們廠商集結邀請過來，說真的我們的預算都不夠，而且都沒有這樣的科目，所以我覺得這個部分如果在這一次880億中可以把它列入，我們在本預算當中是沒有的，這個是我們幾次在溝通時遇到的困難，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會加大補助。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝部長。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在場。","請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0a4231039b7f4e29d4d63fb5309bb2e639a3354dc8dbd3a62905b1f1929327f535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:28:56 - 11:42:33","影片長度":"00:13:37","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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葬煙隧 現在大部分的人都是抽抓煙 抓煙 在抗煙嘛啊 比較多都是勞動階級的啦 屬於便宜啦 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁"},{"start":110.146,"end":114.531,"text":"這也是台灣菸酒有幾款廉價菸的原因當時也是考慮到那些藍領階級負擔能力的問題"},{"start":122.642,"end":137.051,"text":"那現在有加熱煙跟電子煙因為我看都比較年輕比較文明的人其實比較高的人也會在吃的那一個煮小菜這樣看起來也比較水準比較高的感覺加熱煙跟電子煙到底是差在哪裡"},{"start":141.213,"end":145.977,"text":"這可能比較專業可能要請衛福部來說明電子菸據我了解沒有經過核准是不能進來到處都是怎麼會沒有進來"},{"start":158.648,"end":171.815,"text":"現在加熱室菸還沒有一家通過健康影響評估換句話說現在都還是不能進來所以進來的話我們把它當作是違法違信品"},{"start":172.836,"end":197.306,"text":"因為有人說什麼加熱煙電池煙之後來抽稅的話可以一年抽200億,有這個事情嗎當然你增加的話當然你收入一定會增加嘛這個如果要給他歸納歸納要收稅是誰決定是你們決定還是要聯繫跟財政委員會要聯繫我覺得這個是可能主管機關主管機關可能"},{"start":198.886,"end":214.972,"text":"這個是因為涉及到跨部會的事情可能就是還是要各跨相關的部會來做討論那當然也要跟社會做充分的溝通我想這個委員很清楚你的菸捐一年可以收到200多億嘛菸稅呢?菸稅我這邊的資料"},{"start":223.226,"end":238.324,"text":"如果以用去年來看的話去年的話如果是加入長照的大概是264億如果沒有加入長照的是155億所以兩個加起來大概就是"},{"start":238.824,"end":264.042,"text":"大概就是將近四百多億了四百多億 煙煎加煙稅四百多億那如果這些電子煙跟加熱煙也納進來的話那這個現在目前還不能 現在那個都假設性問題吳署長 現在這個東西要納進來說是你們衛福部跟國電署的意見 他們財政部使不上理由這回事嗎"},{"start":267.567,"end":276.821,"text":"因為核定權在主管器官,所以我們還要尊重主管器官的做法署長回答一下"},{"start":279.479,"end":303.078,"text":"謝謝召委那個電子菸大概是在預划是禁止的那麼加熱菸目前在審查還沒有通過那如果通過的話那麼它到底要扣多少稅因為原來房子有規定我們在預划還是要辦理那麼相關的稅間就跟現在的菸稅的每一支多少費用來扣稅那是還是要先過委員會"},{"start":304.797,"end":329.995,"text":"那加熱煙跟電子煙好像添加物更多比紫煙還多那它產生的危害更大還有這個事情現在的紫煙它也有很多的添加物那未來目前審查的這個加熱式煙品那其中大部分都是有裡面都有一些添加物"},{"start":331.331,"end":346.874,"text":"那你們這個什麼時候可以完成?審查什麼時候可以完成?目前就是尊重委員會的審查還在程序當中,還沒有完成好,那次長請回我請補充到健保署副署長市長好我們幾年的長照差不多有800萬人"},{"start":363.953,"end":374.647,"text":"很多人的心事也不管,但是我們現在有錢沒錢,所以就站著站著,站著站著"},{"start":378.25,"end":390.641,"text":"這是兩難我們台灣現在都低薪啦護理人員也是低薪上個禮拜有講的那個放射師啦什麼14個師我個人覺得那個都是低薪啦"},{"start":391.826,"end":415.954,"text":"那我們這個資訊處處長他每天打書 做到急診科醫師沒辦法做 再來做處長那也是低薪 對吧每天被幹掉 那也是所以這個一定要加強啦你就要把長照基金的錢 除以公務預算一年這麼一點點錢那你要cover全台灣我就講一個就好啦 家人請外勞來顧的人"},{"start":419.835,"end":438.31,"text":"23萬人,那一家店都沒辦法,一線都沒,一線都沒所以這個是很糟糕的那這個是,這個是我去恆春,恆春旅遊醫院,這要改名改回來啦部立恆春醫院啦,什麼旅遊醫院沒有旅遊就不用去看是不是"},{"start":440.199,"end":466.892,"text":"改這個名字是有點問題啊現在人們一直懷疑整個恆春的人都跟我激烈的懷疑說希望部長你趕緊證明回來反正恆春旅遊醫院他85%都是服務在地的旅遊的人太少太少了旅遊會出事的人很少不到2%嘛都是外商好啦我現在要講的是你這個那個那個照料的評估你現在說幾個店"},{"start":470.238,"end":492.652,"text":"幾個團隊還有多少地方沒有找了的點是我們屏東有四間門在做我告訴你都會去的都沒問題小孩子來做都沒問題現在最糟糕的是離島還有偏鄉還有山上這些一到五都找不到人"},{"start":494.264,"end":512.461,"text":"都是要6日 而且是整部車這樣 欸人家醫生修理科 復健科 社工車車 兩車車 三到那邊然後現在掌握最好的是誰"},{"start":514.639,"end":530.315,"text":"林頂 川頂 川頂還沒有 林頂最準林頂的這個林 十毫 二十毫對一個孩子這樣比較慢 反應比較慢的 他們都很清楚所以他們都要去找林頂的這個可以半個禮拜四去"},{"start":531.656,"end":554.957,"text":"那你們每次去評估的錢,跟在醫院等病人的是一樣,要加息啦,對不對?這個地方要加息,不然的話這些,你看你,有機率沒搞,就是lost在那邊。那一個政府的搶不搶,就是看他在偏鄉離島醫療的水準有沒有拉起來。"},{"start":555.638,"end":577.751,"text":"你在都會區 台北市每間都去到水洋洋就不要管他 就讓他自由競爭 每間都護理堂皇你要看看你的偏鄉醫療 如果你的水準夠 你就是一個先進我們兩個人已經做得不錯啦 但是還可以做得更好那你健保幾戶 三十分鐘一個療程嘛 對不對太少了啦"},{"start":579.844,"end":583.789,"text":"剛剛林業勤也有講我現在做社會檢查我是有很多人聽大家一直說你也有很多"},{"start":587.993,"end":609.775,"text":"因為孩子的情緒不穩定 等到他穩定已經過十分鐘了那開始治療 現在最糟糕的是ST啦就是原治療 喔 那個是缺的一塌糊塗每一個小孩子要做原治療半小時都要排好幾個禮拜我常常 建民醫代表來跟我講都說你會插隊啦"},{"start":612.137,"end":617.922,"text":"醫院治療師的診診也沒有多遠啊你比較多也好啊所以你幾戶這裡休館 四天加班 我覺得這都很重要啦所以這也不是你一天加班 現在今年很多錢啊在那個時總樑啊 請問大家能不能大力去張羅"},{"start":633.475,"end":661.554,"text":"張羅很多經費回來我們大家全部的寄望都在這裡這樣也要調人家調調我只覺得這一兩年所有的醫療院所的結餘全部都來調薪資我覺得這也是應該把這些我們的醫事相關人員的薪水提高最好一個人拿到六萬七萬八萬都好啊整個拉起來不然的話留不住人啊是是是"},{"start":662.054,"end":685.503,"text":"尤其語言治療,你回去研議30分鐘是不是加長一點,然後點數高一點這沒有多少錢,好不好好,這個我們馬上給你這個很重要啦,然後剛剛那個王育民講的長照保險,我在第八屆有提的"},{"start":686.303,"end":707.292,"text":"結果那時候那個蔡英文很虛偽,不來,全部撥去到現在來,時空背景應該可以因為現在再來,花的錢越來越多老人越來越多,一年要兩千億那你現在用公務預算才八百多億,遠遠不足啦你沒有廣覆蓋嘛,所以這個是可以來"},{"start":708.813,"end":735.153,"text":"來討論當然在野黨是希望說這個民生法案從長照保險能把他推過去我是個人是覺得這個當然是理想就是朝野大家要有共識啦這個跟政黨無關 我要再跟部長強調這個鄉村生理培訓部立恆春醫院 聽起來多爽什麼恆春理兒醫院"},{"start":737.301,"end":742.386,"text":"跟部長強烈建議醫護會我請醫護會醫護會不來啦我派這個第一副執行長剛才去離島回來而已來跟我們關心醫療的蘇昭偉回應一下"},{"start":758.464,"end":774.874,"text":"謝謝趙偉對我們恆春醫院的關心的確沒有錯就像趙偉講的恆春醫院大部分的服務是在地的民眾當初其實是屏東醫院的分院所以它已經更名過一次變成恆春旅遊醫院後續的名稱的問題我們回去再妥慎來演繹"},{"start":782.598,"end":789.742,"text":"省立屏東醫院恆春館後來再改成省立恆春醫院屬立恆春醫院恆春旅遊醫院後來再改成旅遊醫院這最近才改的嘛旅遊醫院應該很久了"},{"start":805.7,"end":811.429,"text":"我們該做部立恆春醫院沒有啦我們來NE啊部長加油謝謝謝謝我們蘇召偉的發言也謝謝部長這邊的答詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":777,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時29分）謝謝主席。部長，你先休息一下，我們請財政部次長。"],["主席：來，財政部次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：次長好。我要問你，關於我們的菸捐與菸稅，現在一包菸是多少啊？一包菸的菸捐是多少？"],["阮次長清華：大概……應該……每一個就……"],["蘇委員清泉：一包20元，十幾年沒漲了。"],["阮次長清華：每一個的等級不一樣，有些超過100元、有些像臺灣菸酒的大概都是六十幾元，都有啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：一包菸的菸稅是多少？菸稅是算1,000支……"],["阮次長清華：對，我們1,000支是1,590元。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以一包菸以20支計算，差不多是30元左右。"],["阮次長清華：31.8元。"],["蘇委員清泉：一直有一股力量倡議菸捐要漲價、菸稅要漲價，這樣長照基金才會有錢。另外一派是反對，每次談到這個議題就被人罵得要死，所以沒人敢講、也沒人願意講。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：但我還是要講，現在我們要漲菸捐、漲菸稅，其實大部分的人都是抽紙捲的菸，而且大多是勞動階級，像是司機朋友、開卡車的，他們都是吃檳榔兼抽菸，如果一直這樣漲價，對他們的負擔也是很大。"],["阮次長清華：這也是臺灣菸酒有幾款廉價菸的原因，當時就是考慮到那些藍領階級負擔能力的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在有加熱菸與電子煙，我看都是比較年輕的人、比較文明的人或薪水比較高的人在抽，看起來好像是水準比較高的感覺，到底加熱菸與電子煙的差別在哪裡？"],["阮次長清華：這是比較專業的問題，可能要請衛福部來說明。"],["蘇委員清泉：財政部只負責扣稅的。"],["阮次長清華：根據我的了解，電子煙沒有經過核准是不能進來的，至於加熱菸的部分，目前……"],["蘇委員清泉：現在到處都是，怎麼會沒有進來？"],["阮次長清華：現在還沒有一家加熱菸通過健康影響評估，換句話說，現在都還是不能進來，因此，我們會把進來的當作是違禁品。"],["蘇委員清泉：有人說針對加熱菸及電子煙抽稅的話，一年可以抽200億的稅，真有這樣的事情嗎？"],["阮次長清華：當然抽稅品項增加的話，收入就一定會增加，但是這個也要……"],["蘇委員清泉：歸納要收稅是由誰決定？是由你們決定嗎？或是要與財政委員會聯席？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得這個可能是要由主管機關……但這是牽涉到跨部會的事情，可能還是要各個相關部會進行討論，當然也要與社會做充分的溝通。我想委員也很清楚，因為這件事情非常……"],["蘇委員清泉：我看你們的菸捐一年可以收到二百多億，菸稅呢？我不知道菸稅是多少呢？"],["阮次長清華：菸稅，根據我這邊的資料，以去年來看的話，如果加入長照大概是264億、如果沒有加入長照就是155億，兩個加起來大概就是四百多億。"],["蘇委員清泉：菸捐加菸稅是四百多億？"],["阮次長清華：對，四百多億。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果將電子煙與加熱菸也納進來呢？"],["阮次長清華：現在這個都是假設性的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：吳署長，現在說將這個東西納進來要看你們衛福部及國健署的意見，他們財政部使不上力，有這回事嗎？"],["阮次長清華：因為核定權在主管機關，所以我們還是要尊重主管機關的做法。"],["蘇委員清泉：署長，你回答一下。"],["吳署長昭軍：謝謝召委，電子煙依法是禁止的、加熱菸目前還在審查，尚未通過。如果通過的話，到底它要扣多少稅，因為菸害防制法有規定，我們還是要依法辦理，相關的稅捐就與現在菸稅一樣以每支多少的費用來扣稅，還是要先通過委員會。"],["蘇委員清泉：加熱菸與電子煙的添加物好像更多，比紙菸還多，所以它產生的危害更大，真有這樣的事情嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：現在的紙菸也有很多的添加物，目前正在審查的加熱式菸品其中大部分也都有一些添加物。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們的審查什麼時候可以完成？"],["吳署長昭軍：目前就是尊重委員會的審查，還在程序當中、還沒有完成。"],["蘇委員清泉：次長，請回。"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在請部長及健保署副署長。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們一年的長照差不多要花費八百多億嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：誠如剛才林淑芬委員所言，這些人的薪水也不高，但是因為我們現在的錢不夠，所以就要這裡省、那裡省！這裡捻、那裡捻！這個問題實在是兩難。我們臺灣現在就是低薪、護理人員就是低薪，上個禮拜才講的，譬如放射師等等的14個師，我個人認為那個都是低薪啦！像資訊處處長讀到博士，擔任過急診科醫師，不願意再做，跑來這裡擔任處長，結果也是低薪，對嗎？每天在那邊被人家幹譙，也是……因此，這個一定要加強啦！你要想辦法增加長照基金的錢，不然公務預算一年只有這麼一點點錢，你還要cover全臺灣。我就講一個狀況，家裡聘用外勞擔任照護工作的有23萬人，一角銀都沒有補助，一毛都沒有、一毛都沒有，所以這是很糟糕的！","這是我去恆春旅遊醫院的照片，應該要將名稱改回部立恆春醫院，什麼旅遊醫院，沒有旅遊就不能去看診，是不是？改這個名字是有點問題啊！當地的人都一直反映、整個恆春的人都向我激烈的反映，希望部長能幫他們正名回來，不要再稱為恆春旅遊醫院，因為它有85%都是服務在地民眾，旅遊的人太少太少了，更何況旅遊會出事的又更少，不到2%嘛！而且都是外傷。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我現在要講的是早療的評估，你現在說有幾個點、幾個團隊，還有多少地方沒有早療的點，像我們屏東就有4間醫院在做。我告訴你，這個在都會區裡都沒有問題，小孩子去做都沒有問題，現在最糟糕的是離島、偏鄉及山上，這些地方從星期一到五都找不到人、都是在星期六、日才有辦法做，而且是2、3輛車載著小兒科醫師、復健科醫師及志工等等殺到那邊。現在掌握資訊最好的是誰？鄰長、村長，但是以鄰長的資訊最準，因為鄰長的鄰大約有十幾、二十幾戶，哪家的孩子生長較慢、反應較差，鄰長都很清楚，所以還必須要去找鄰長耶！他們都是星期天過去，但每次去評估的錢與在醫院等病人是一樣的，應該要加給啊！部長，這個地方要加給，不然的話，你看你的普及率不夠就是lost在那邊。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：一個政府強不強就是看它在偏鄉及離島的醫療水準有沒有拉起來，不然在都會區像臺北市的每間醫院都蓋得水噹噹，你都不要管它，讓它去自由競爭，每間都是富麗堂皇。因此，要看的是你的偏鄉醫療，如果你的水準夠的話，這就是一個先進！我們臺灣已經做得不錯了，但是還可以做得更好。你們的健保給付是30分鐘一個療程，對不對？太少了啦！剛剛林月琴也講過，現在我擔任召委坐在這裡學到很多，因為聽到大家一直講，你應該也學到很多吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：孩子剛進診間的情緒都還不穩定，等他的情緒穩定就已經過了10分鐘，才開始治療。現在最糟糕的是ST，也就是語言治療，這個真的是缺得一蹋糊塗，每個孩子要做語言治療半小時都要排好幾個禮拜，常常有民意代表來告訴我，都是要硬插隊啦！其實語言治療師的薪水也不太高，如果你要給他多一點，也好啊！所以你要將給付拉高、時間加長，我覺得這些都很重要。既然健保署一天到晚說今年的錢很多，因為石崇良及邱泰源兩人大力張羅了很多經費回來，所以我們大家全部的寄望都在這裡，但你也要禁得住！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我認為可以將這一、二年所有醫療院所的結餘全都用來調漲薪資，而且我覺得這也是應該的，把這些醫事相關人員的薪水提高，最少一個人要拿到6萬、7萬、8萬都好啊！把整個拉起來，不然的話，留不住人啊！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：尤其是語言治療，副署長，你回去之後要盡快研議，是不是能將30分鐘再加長一點、點數拉高一點？這個沒有多少錢、沒有多少錢，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們馬上研議。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個很重要啦！","關於剛剛王育敏講的長照保險，我在第8屆就提過，但是那時候的蔡英文主席不要，結果就沒了！如今的時空背景應該是可以，因為接下來要花的錢越來越多、老人越來越多，一年需要2,000億，而你們使用的公務預算才八百多億，遠遠不足啦！既然你沒有辦法廣泛覆蓋，這是可以討論的。當然在野黨是希望能將這個民生法案、長照保險推過去，我個人認為這個當然是理想，不過就是朝野大家要有共識啦！這個與政黨無關，我要再次向部長強調。","至於這個恆春醫院，部立恆春醫院聽起來多爽，什麼恆春旅遊醫院，在此向部長強烈建議。"],["邱部長泰源：我請醫福會……"],["蘇委員清泉：醫福會沒來啦！"],["邱部長泰源：有啦！有啦！我派第一副執行長來說明，他才剛從離島回來，向關心醫療的蘇召委回應一下。"],["林執行長慶豐：謝謝召委對我們恆春醫院的關心，的確沒有錯，誠如召委所講的，恆春醫院大部分服務的都是在地民眾。當初其實是屏東醫院的分院，所以它已經更名過一次，變成恆春旅遊醫院，至於後續的名稱問題，我們回去之後會妥慎的研議，謝謝召委。"],["蘇委員清泉：以前是省立屏東醫院恆春分院，對不對？後來再改成省立恆春醫院、署立恆春醫院。"],["林執行長慶豐：就是恆春旅遊醫院。"],["蘇委員清泉：後來才改成旅遊醫院。"],["林執行長慶豐：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：最近才改的嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：旅遊醫院這個名稱應該是很久了吧！"],["蘇委員清泉：可以再改成部立恆春醫院嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們來研議啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：好，部長加油！"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝我們蘇召委的發言、也謝謝部長這邊的答詢。","下一位請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov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是不是有請經濟部郭部長國安會高副主委好 部長跟高副主委委員好部長您好 部長第一個問題請教就是說881對受到關稅影響的這個製造業我們提供政府的協助嘛那你要通過特別條例特別條例之後這個政策上路你要產生效果會有一定的時限"},{"start":38.308,"end":62.674,"text":"那有沒有考慮說我們最實質的這個對中小企業跟傳統製造業受到關稅影響的這些產業最實質的幫助而且立即生效了就針對他們成本降低啦成本降低齁 兄弟接著就說水田的經驗有可能嗎水田齁 佔人的成本是多少而已這樣嗎你說比方說啦齁 比較耗能"},{"start":63.874,"end":71.663,"text":"金屬扣件 他們有可能是這麼做的嗎所以我們這樣是用這個EXCO就是節能減碳的方法 但是那個會有點久 第二 沒沒沒第二喔 這個骨的褻皮 骨的褻心喔"},{"start":84.814,"end":98.683,"text":"這個太舊煥新我們有這種的這個比較嚴格的標準你可以分不同的類別譬如說你現在已經產生虧損了產生虧損你就降低它的減免 它的稅墊報告員 我的部分我們現在做到你剛才所質詢的我為材料"},{"start":105.627,"end":113.576,"text":"有它的銀行有它的這個設備這三個構面來降低它的成本所以我現在知道我們要統購之後來發給他們"},{"start":118.493,"end":128.224,"text":"對於他們來說這個受衝擊最大的就是傳統製造業所以我們有一些是比較耗水耗電比較耗水耗電的我說這個你要索賀要怎麼讓他們解決藍莓之急水電的經驗是可以讓他們馬上把成本降低"},{"start":135.512,"end":152.726,"text":"你也可以輸課一下對 它是舊的設備才會這樣子但是那個是耗能的我們認為它可以趁這個機會我們有其他的這個預算可以幫助它太舊換新對 這邊開啟它主連 它用的水跟電就更加舊講到這個問題我繼續來請教對中小企業轉型你說那個簡簡單單是轉型嘛是轉型轉型你看你4月4號的發布的版本"},{"start":165.456,"end":192.576,"text":"這個基本上是由以小代大以大代小以大代小那你4月20新的版本卻把這個門檻就把它提高你看這個所以這是不是能夠增加補助的資金跟項目那你現在這一次的880億裡面對於這些傳統製造業它的補助的條件跟資格也比較嚴格一點"},{"start":193.817,"end":209.943,"text":"所以這部份是不是你會再去處理看看這個我們是從寬從簡從速的處理所以那個部分只要它能夠檢據有事實我們就認定所以報告委員如果你的這個譬如說有發現有這樣的這個我們的"},{"start":213.024,"end":225.933,"text":"同仁對這方面認知不夠那有造成困擾的話麻煩你通知我們我們都可以馬上去你四月七日提出的方案你還有以大帶小的方式把沒有輸美實際的業者也一併大陸補助範圍"},{"start":228.675,"end":253.011,"text":"那現在你4月21號就把這個罰除掉你無需不需要有疏寧包括你是間接疏寧的我們都承認但是你4月21號把這個取消了喔沒關係啦我都從觀認定啦因為在這裡會有人問啊市委先生你說可以現在說不行不需要在臥底上面可能要去跟齁跟一些中產企業他們有出了他有一些認知上的不同喔但是現在已經變成更嚴格了"},{"start":254.952,"end":270.619,"text":"我們會 他如果有問題他可以打電話到我們的Code Center或者是我們的馬上辦服務中心他們都不打給你們 都直接打給我是喔 你就要叫他們打給我們啦那委員造成你的困擾比較不好意思但是我們馬上辦服務中心喔 最多一天啦最多一天一定回答他的問題"},{"start":278.002,"end":298.153,"text":"國發會的報告裡面對鋼鐵跟鋁材啊他說這個對我國是相對有利啦齁你那個報告是這樣寫齁對 其實我們也是參考經濟部的報告因為之前我直接問產發署署長 邱署長你山葉你比較了解那個傳統山葉那個真的是對台灣相對有利嗎"},{"start":299.958,"end":318.859,"text":"你那個鋼鐵跟鋁材包括下游的金屬扣減也是呢?這是相對的因為我們在川普1.0的時候對鋼鋁已經課徵國安關稅但是那時候有10個國家被豁免台灣沒有被豁免"},{"start":320.12,"end":329.384,"text":"可是這一次川普2.0的時候,他把這10個國家全部都拉進來,變成大家拉平,大家保證有講過啊,我們台灣不敢緊張啊,我們大家要把他拍白啊,這次我們覺得鋼鋁把他拍白,我們台灣等到相對有利。鋼鐵工業也是這麼認為嗎?這個是我們問過業者以後,"},{"start":341.707,"end":362.887,"text":"就一路這樣我們這樣從北到南這樣去問業者大家業者是認為說只要給我們公平的這個競爭的機會這個我們是有機會所以整個鋼鐵跟鋁材的產業是有相對有利的相對川普1.0的時候是有10個國家豁免相對有利我們要講清楚這樣比較了解下一個議題就是說關於半導體半導體這個可能部長最清楚"},{"start":363.948,"end":379.495,"text":"就我們並沒有針對這個企業來協助有一個系統性的來模擬美國國安的調查機制美國國安調查機制有它的程序有很多他們在貿易談判有很多的業者全部都參與"},{"start":381.085,"end":407.583,"text":"譬如說有一些媒體做一個很詳細的報導就是說他在跟各國在針對貿易在談判的時候有很多的這個企業界代表都有列席表達意見那我們好像沒有這個系統性的怎麼樣去協助企業能夠模擬美國國安調查機制讓他們了解整個國安機制的這個流程那我們才能做相關的因應做準備"},{"start":411.517,"end":428.99,"text":"報告委員我們對於這個命題我們是非常的關注我們的貿易署也有針對這個我們有做對廠商可以個別的聯絡我們也會在今天事實上我們在今天下午"},{"start":429.75,"end":454.111,"text":"也會開座談會這個座談會包括國內的業者包括國外的業者也就是說美國的客戶在台灣的廠商我們找他們一起來針對232這一題大家進入比較深層所以調查流程他這樣調查他的流程我們都有掌握嗎有我們都了解那對於他們我們有沒有可能建立風險預警機制"},{"start":456.513,"end":475.525,"text":"針對未來可能敏感項目去及早掌握及早預防有所有該防範的該這個提早掌握的部分我們都有在進行那包括這個有一些包括什麼洗產地的啦或者是飛鴻供應鏈等等這一些事實上我們早就在運作"},{"start":476.545,"end":492.134,"text":"這有沒有做一些模擬演練 沙盤推演有嗎 我是希望說你們拿出一個沙盤推演跟產業界來合作 你那個特定供應鏈這些類型你要有一個模擬推演的模式 讓產業界能夠參與我們會針對 譬如說各種不同的 譬如說這個"},{"start":503.8,"end":525.913,"text":"不同類的半導體類的一種智慧型手機的一種電腦的手機一種電子零組件的一種大概分成幾個不同的項目然後我們都每一個場次去傾聽業者的想法那麼他們碰到的狀況是怎麼樣其實部長我只是提那個想法而已可能更要積極請他們參與"},{"start":528.373,"end":546.515,"text":"你做任何供應鏈這個模擬演練做到衝擊應該有相關的產業進入而不是聽他們聲音而已不是我們當然會判斷這個就是說基本上因為我們跟美國在這個科技的產品上面是高度的互補"},{"start":547.574,"end":567.746,"text":"高度的互補大部分美國的user的六大科技公司占我們這個出口的這個大概500億美金所以對他們來講這個稅是課在他們身上而且第二個我們有很多的廠商是做EMS做代工的客戶也是他們現在部長你這個我們對美採購的清單現在還在積極盤點當中嗎有訂單的嗎"},{"start":577.034,"end":584.226,"text":"對門採購的清單還是動態那個是行政院副院長的工作"},{"start":585.992,"end":613.713,"text":"他是谈判的我们只是提供我是想了解进度对面采购的清单是怎么样那个部分就是在进行中的这个过程另外啦基于国际惯例是不宜我了解我可以理解但是调整非关税障碍跟这个我们怎么样降低这个出口动能的下降这个部分基本上我们不会降低出口动能"},{"start":615.038,"end":643.473,"text":"這個出口動能一定會受到影響嘛我們不會因為美國的這些科技產品對我們的依賴度是非常高的所以我們不會說給我們訂單我們不出口這是跟委員報告所以我們在這個分子的部分分母不變情況之下我們在分子的部分所以您認為出口動能不會下降不會因為說川普的關稅政策讓台灣出口動能下降我們會買進口的東西多一點"},{"start":645.527,"end":671.036,"text":"不會下降可是很多經濟學家都認為說我們台灣又有匯率的問題又有我們貨幣政策的問題又大量粗糙這個未來在談判的過程中會比較辛苦我們會大量我們就粗糙啦我們粗糙的部分就是說我們進口少然後出口多啦但是我們現在出口不變的情況下我們進口多一點"},{"start":671.616,"end":688.266,"text":"有的說台灣會是跟對美談判中 辛苦的國家之一你覺得不懂 我看你很樂觀 樂觀所以我們不會是對美談判很辛苦的國家相對是比較輕鬆的國家我不是談判成員 但是我相當樂觀"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時23分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長、國發會高副主委。"],["主席：請部長跟高副主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你好。部長，第一個問題請教，880億是政府對受到關稅影響的製造業提供協助，通過特別條例之後，政策上路要產生效果，會有一定的時間，有沒有考慮，我們對中小企業跟傳統製造業受到關稅影響的這些產業最實質的幫助，而且立即生效的，就是針對他們的成本降低，成本降低最直接的就是水電的減免，有可能嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：水電占他們的成本只有一點點。"],["邱委員志偉：是這樣嗎？比方說，比較耗能的產業金屬扣件製造，水電成本有可能只占一點點嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，是這樣啦，就是說，要從源頭來幫助他們。"],["邱委員志偉：是。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們暫時用ESCO，就是節能減碳的方式。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，但是那個會有一點久。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，沒有，沒有。","第二，舊的設備、設施要汰舊換新，我們有這樣的預算……"],["邱委員志偉：你可以自訂嚴格的標準，我是說，你可以分不同的類別，比方說，現在已經產生虧損了，既然已經產生虧損，你就減免他們的水電。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就你剛才質詢的部分，我從材料、人工、設備這三個構面，來降低他們的成本，所以現在材料我們會統購之後再發給他們。"],["邱委員志偉：對於他們來說，受衝擊最大的就是傳統製造業，有一些是比較耗水耗電的公司。"],["郭部長智輝：但因為是中、小公司嘛！"],["邱委員志偉：對，對於耗水、耗電的公司，你要去思考怎麼讓他們解決燃眉之急，水電的減免可以讓他們馬上把成本降低，你可以思考一下。"],["郭部長智輝：他們是用舊的設備，才會這樣子，但是那個是耗能的，我們認為他們可以趁這個機會汰舊換新，我們有其他的預算，可以幫助他們汰舊換新，他們不用花錢，自然他們用的水跟電就會比較少。"],["邱委員志偉：說到這個問題，我繼續來向你請教，說到中小企業轉型，節能減碳就是轉型，你看你在4月4日發布的版本，基本上是以大帶小，那你4月21日發布的新版本卻把門檻提高，這樣是不是能夠增加補助的資金跟項目？這一次的880億裡面，對於這些傳統製造業補助的條件跟資格，也比較嚴格一點。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，沒有，沒有，沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這個部分是不是你可以去思考看看……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們是以從寬、從簡、從速的處理，所以那個部分只要能夠檢具事實，我們就認定。所以報告委員，如果你有發現我們的同仁對這方面認知不夠，有造成困擾的話，麻煩你通知我們，我們會馬上處理。"],["邱委員志偉：我請教你，你4月4日提出的方案，你還有以大帶小的方式。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：把沒有輸美的業者也一併納入補助範圍，那現在你4月21日又把這個版本……"],["郭部長智輝：不需要，不需要有輸美，包括間接輸美的，我們都承認。"],["邱委員志偉：是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["邱委員志偉：但是你4月21日把這個取消了喔。"],["郭部長智輝：沒關係啦。因為我說過了，我們都從寬認定。"],["邱委員志偉：因為業者會來問，說4月4日說可以，現在又說不可以。"],["郭部長智輝：現在都可以，不需要在……"],["邱委員志偉：可能要去跟一些中小企業溝通，他們有一些認知上的不同，擔心現在已經變成更嚴格了。"],["郭部長智輝：他如果有問題，他可以打電話到我們的call center或我們的馬上辦服務中心。"],["邱委員志偉：他們都不打給你們，都直接打給我。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊，你就要叫他們打給我們，委員，造成你的困擾比較不好意思，我們的馬上辦服務中心最多一天就一定答覆你的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：國發會的報告說鋼鐵和鋁材的政策對我國是相對有利的，你們的報告是這樣寫的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，我們也是參考經濟部的報告，因為之前……"],["邱委員志偉：我直接問產發署邱署長，你對傳統產業比較了解，真的是對臺灣相對有利嗎？鋼鐵跟鋁材，包括下游的金屬扣件也是，會有利嗎？"],["邱署長求慧：報告委員，這是相對的，因為我們在川普1.0的時候，對鋼鋁已經課徵國安關稅了，但是那時候有10個國家被豁免，臺灣沒有被豁免，可是這一次川普2.0的時候……"],["邱委員志偉：豁免全部都納進來？"],["邱署長求慧：把這10個國家全部都納進來，變成大家都拉平，剛才部長說過了，我們臺灣不怕競爭，但是要跟別人打平，這次我們的鋼鋁跟別人打平，我們臺灣反而相對有利。"],["邱委員志偉：鋼鐵公會也是這麼認為嗎？"],["邱署長求慧：我們問過業者，我們就這樣從北到南一路去問業者，業者是認為只要給我們公平競爭的機會，我們是有機會……"],["邱委員志偉：對整個鋼鐵跟鋁材的產業是相對有利的？"],["邱署長求慧：相對川普1.0的時候是有10個國家豁免相對有利。"],["邱委員志偉：好，講清楚，這樣我比較了解。","下一個議題就是關於半導體，對半導體部長可能最清楚，我們並沒有針對企業來協助，有一個系統性的模擬美國國安調查的機制，美國國安調查機制有它的程序，在貿易談判中，有很多他們的業者全部都參與，有一些媒體做了很詳細的報導，在跟各國針對貿易談判的時候，有很多企業界代表都有列席表達意見，我們好像沒有系統性的協助企業模擬美國國安調查的機制，讓他們了解整個國安機制的流程，我們才能做相關的因應，做好準備。對於這一點，經濟部有什麼想法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對於這一個命題，我們是非常的關注，我們的貿易署也有針對這個命題，對廠商進行個別的聯絡，事實上我們在今天下午也會開座談會，參加這個座談會的包括國內的業者、包括國外的業者，也就是說，美國的客戶在臺灣的廠商，我們找他們一起來，針對232這一題，大家進入比較深層的……"],["邱委員志偉：他們怎麼調查，這個流程我們都有掌握嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我們都了解了。對於他們，我們有沒有可能建立風險預警機制？針對未來可能敏感項目及早掌握、及早預防。"],["郭部長智輝：所有該防範的、該提早掌握的部分，我們都有在進行了，包括有一些洗產地的、非紅供應鏈等問題，事實上我們早就在運作。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有做一些模擬演練、沙盤推演？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：有嗎？我是說，你有沒有拿出一個沙盤推演，跟產業界來合作？那個特定供應鏈，這些類型，你要有一個模擬推演的模式讓產業鏈能夠參與，這個部分經濟部有在處理嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會針對各種不同的項目，譬如說，半導體、智慧型手機、電腦、電子零組件，大概分成幾個不同的項目，然後我們到每一個場次去傾聽業者的想法，知道他們碰到的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，不是傾聽他們的想法而已，可能要更積極地請他們參與，做任何供應鏈模擬演練受到的衝擊，應該有相關的產業進入，而不是聽他們的聲音而已。"],["郭部長智輝：不是。我們當然會判斷，第一個，基本上，我們跟美國在科技產品上面是高度互補，大部分美國的user六大科技公司占我們出口金額大概500億美金，所以對他們來講，這個稅是課在他們身上。第二個，我們也有很多的廠商是做EMS，是做代工的，客戶也是他們，所以……"],["邱委員志偉：OK。好。部長，我們對美採購的清單現在還在積極盤點當中，已有定案了嗎？對美採購的清單定案了嗎？是國安機密？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個是行政院副院長的工作，他是談判的，我們只是提供……"],["邱委員志偉：我是要了解進度，了解對美採購的清單是不是已經處理好了？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個部分就是在進行中的過程，基於國際慣例，是不能公開的。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我了解。我可以理解。但是調整非關稅障礙跟我們怎麼樣減少出口動能的下降，這個部分經濟部……"],["郭部長智輝：基本上我們不會降低出口動能。"],["邱委員志偉：出口動能一定會受到影響嘛！不會受到影響嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為美國的這些科技產品對我們的依賴度是非常高的，所以我們不會說給我們訂單我們不出口，所以我們在分母不變的情況之下，在分子的部分……"],["邱委員志偉：所以你認為出口動能不會下降，不會因為川普的關稅政策，讓臺灣出口動能下降？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會讓進口的東西多一點。"],["邱委員志偉：你說不會下降，可是很多經濟學家都認為說，我們臺灣又有匯率的問題……"],["郭部長智輝：不會、不會。"],["邱委員志偉：我們又有貨幣政策的問題，又大量出超，未來在談判的過程中會比較辛苦。"],["郭部長智輝：我們出超的部分就是我們進口少，然後出口多，但是現在我們在出口不變的情況下，進口多一點。"],["邱委員志偉：有人說，臺灣會是跟對美談判中很辛苦的國家之一，你認同嗎？我看你很樂觀耶。"],["郭部長智輝：當然啊！"],["邱委員志偉：很樂觀？"],["郭部長智輝：樂觀、樂觀。"],["邱委員志偉：我們不會是對美談判中很辛苦的國家，相對是比較輕鬆的國家？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是談判成員，但是我相當樂觀。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員亭妃代）：謝謝邱志偉委員。","我們現在請蔡易餘召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160522","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0d7b1f97980e2478016f08763592c0c249a3354dc8dbd3a6261ad045f983e26e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"11:24:23 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有請次長好 請次長"},{"start":10.743,"end":30.794,"text":"市長3月27號的時候本席在這邊詢問了李部長有關基隆港口海洋跟廟宇文化等活動資源的整合跟推廣的相關議題那到今天已經差不多也快一個月了請問目前文化部有任何的具體計畫跟方向嗎"},{"start":33.948,"end":48.297,"text":"不好意思 因為我之前沒有準備這方面的資料可以讓我們用書面的資料來補充嗎什麼時候我會拿到呢因為我只是 這個是個很基本的follow up因為我要去確認一下是在哪一個部分進行"},{"start":49.978,"end":75.143,"text":"因為上次文化部部長那個文化部部長來的時候他也是很贊同像這樣的作為因為我們在展的規劃上其實常常會有這一類的主題包括譬如說我隨便舉個例子我們在剛剛過去的時尚週市長我認同你可以給我書面報告只是說我個人是蠻失望說今天既然我已經講既然今天既然我這是一個follow up立行工作裡面而不會特別去整理一個報告因為我就說我們上"},{"start":75.923,"end":93.122,"text":"沒關係我其實你不用特地去針對我講的事情來去做一直去做回應我沒有要責怪你的意思我也認同你們要麻煩給我完整的書面報告對於我基隆市未來有關廟宇海洋文化的整理但是我現在我們"},{"start":93.803,"end":109.805,"text":"不需要在這邊直接再解釋說為什麼今天沒有那我只是說我是有很失望的因為我們還蠻常出現這類的主題老實講基隆是個海洋城市那我們也知道上次李部長在這邊聊的時候也是因為聊我認為跟李部長還有一些共識在這個議題上面"},{"start":111.027,"end":125.822,"text":"因為針對基隆市是台灣北方的海洋門戶那文化發展不是只有地方而且基隆有經過荷蘭統治時間西班牙統治時間日本統治時間甚至最後面到現在中華民國"},{"start":126.924,"end":148.584,"text":"這整整的 就是說所有的這些文化的元素放在裡面其實是可以很吸引人的不只代表著基隆 也代表著台灣所以我那時候就覺得說OK 那既然上次跟李部長在這個案子上面我們有獲得一點共識那我就想說直接來問一下延續性說後面有什麼追蹤那今天市長來如果沒有準備的話沒有準備不足沒有關係"},{"start":151.587,"end":170.064,"text":"如果沒準備不足沒有關係那我是希望會後不好意思因為委員事先也沒有提醒這個主題所以我們就沒有事先準備我的習慣是如果之前追到東西那我事後都會再追蹤一次只是因為今天主題剛好不是這個對話沒關係那我只是說這件事情我想未來我們應該要去追蹤追蹤看見這個事情"},{"start":171.685,"end":187.702,"text":"好那另外一個議題我想討論的是因為基隆是港口城市之外那部分可是老實說基隆有被人家稱為有點像是文化沙漠的意味因為我們基隆的這個基隆文化資源是屬於比較匱乏的偏鄉那"},{"start":188.763,"end":206.964,"text":"文化部提出來的文化平權政策有強調文化資源的普及跟多元族群文化的保存但是基隆在這方面我認為還是有待加強啦例如說基隆的原住民文化跟新住民文化是否能夠獲得更多的政策支持呢"},{"start":208.206,"end":219.291,"text":"跟委員回覆因為這些大概都有一些跨部門的合作存在原住民的文化也有原民會那新住民的文化也有內政部我想這些跨部會的合作跟連結這個都是我們非常樂意去嘗試的"},{"start":220.299,"end":242.479,"text":"我為什麼會提出來這個案子的原因是說我這邊資料上面在準備資料的時候看到根據聯合報在2023年也就是前年6月份的一篇報導基隆的原住民人口雖然不多但是他們的文化遺產卻是台灣文化多樣性的重要組成部分然而我們基隆現在原住民文化資源面臨著被忽視的危險"},{"start":244.401,"end":263.852,"text":"基隆的原住民文化的活動跟設施相對匱乏而且許多原住民年輕人對於自己的文化認同感逐漸薄弱那所以我還是回到說請問文化部在推動原民文化保存上面是否有具體的計畫來支持基隆的原住民社群呢"},{"start":265.068,"end":290.928,"text":"或者是說是否有針對原住民文化教育的資源來投入計畫呢跟委員說明我們跟園民會有一個平台會針對原住民的相關的藝文合作的事項來進行協商所以大概跟原住民議題相關的都會在那個平台裡面來共同的協議跟解決那至於就文化部本來的原本的自己部本部的政策來說不論對哪一個族群我們大概都會有各種的"},{"start":292.089,"end":319.747,"text":"標準一致的這一類的相關的措施那所以這個部分應該可以看到文化部在支持原民的團體或者是個人不管是展出的作品或演出上一直都不遺餘力我會希望說會後啦那其實我知道你們的態度但是我希望會後這邊有關的有關投入的資源投入計畫也好還是有未來有些比較務實的措施計畫我希望能夠說會後對 針對原住民的部分我們可以撿了一份給委員"},{"start":321.031,"end":348.943,"text":"大概什麼時候呢大概兩週以內好嗎兩週以內嗎好 謝謝我剛剛講過原住民文化之後現在我就必須提到新住民文化因為基隆的新住民人口其實是在增加這個其實大家都知道而且新住民人口一直在增加它的主要來源是來自於東南亞國家東南亞國家的文化多樣性不管是不只是文化還有宗教各方面來講對於基隆帶來很多不同"},{"start":349.483,"end":378.958,"text":"而且豐富的文化交流機會但是新住民面臨的文化融入問題依然是存在的許多新住民反映他們的文化空間跟資源不足這樣影響他們的生活質量之外也限制了我們基隆市能夠在做多元文化發展上面的事情所以請問文化部在這方面針對新住民的這個文化融入這方面是否有更具體的支持措施那是不是有計畫去在基隆設立更多的新住民文化交流中心呢"},{"start":380.014,"end":403.834,"text":"跟委員報告新住民是台灣現在非常重要的公民人口之一在全台灣新住民的量都增加的非常的快更多我想基隆並不是第一個也不是唯一的一個那所以呢對文化部來說我們的整體的政策是站在文化平權的角度上針對各種不同的族群都提供給他一樣的"},{"start":404.414,"end":429.183,"text":"參與文化體驗的機會所以我們在各個管社包括不管是地方的生活美學館也好或者是像地方的博物館也好或者是我們在以新的政策上大概都有把新住民的文化當作是我們國民文化的一部分在做處理所以在我們的推動的文化政策應該是不限區域的因為畢竟我們是中央的部會"},{"start":430.663,"end":443.881,"text":"很多的部分是要跟地方政府的合作那在整體上來說我們是把新住民的這些文化政策融入我們所有的政策而不是用族群來區隔台灣的文化政策以上說明"},{"start":445.098,"end":464.233,"text":"我是希望說文化不能夠重視而且繼續推動有關原住民跟新住民的文化跟保存因為這不是對於說你剛剛自己也講到說這不是只是針對尊重文化的多樣性同時之間也是促進社會和諧的促進假設因為我自己曾在國外很久很久一段時間"},{"start":465.134,"end":485.081,"text":"那我們台灣很多政策還是很多的精神都跟美國比較都是崇尚美國的而美國自詡是一個民族大熔爐但是很可惜的這個民族大熔爐的這個精神就像是黑人白人他的國會席次於黑人白人還是說哪裡都有不同的不同的聲音在台灣現在越來越難得看得到"},{"start":485.501,"end":508.597,"text":"那我會希望說文化部這如果說從最基本來看起的話我希望文化部在未來的政策裡面可以在這方面提供更多的資源跟支持讓基隆也要從基隆開始做起讓基隆成為一個族群融合也好還是文化的交融之地多元文化一直是文化部的政策目標我們未來也會在這個自由多元的台灣繼續推動這樣的文化價值好 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政務部長是沒有適用也不准用這個相關公務人員法規的這樣的一個解釋嗎"},{"start":73.866,"end":96.646,"text":"他確實不是適用這個法律也不是准用這個法律但是他還是有一些應該遵守一些行為規則我想在任總的報告裡面有提到就是說政務官雖然說他不適用公務人員行政中立法但是仍然是有公務員服務法的適用"},{"start":97.206,"end":121.539,"text":"在學術部的報告裡面可能也有寫到我不太記得沒有那麼清楚特別是在公務員服務法第20條的規定講到公務員非營職務的需要不得動用行政資源就這個部分是不是我們現在講的政務官部會首長們也應該要適用公務員服務法第20條的規定服務法是適用政務人員的"},{"start":122.219,"end":148.728,"text":"是適用政務人員的嘛那麼所以我想請教部長就是現在我們看到這個左內閣那他幾乎就是率領了他這個底下的閣員去參加民進黨所舉辦的人民是頭家的政策宣講我想這個院長下鄉宣講一定有搭乘自己的公務車吧"},{"start":151.104,"end":164.135,"text":"有公務駕駛開車一定也會有隨戶陪同那甚至還警車開道請問像這樣的情況有沒有屬於動用行政資源"},{"start":165.547,"end":184.85,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個部分我的理解行政院應該有一個規範在跟所有的政務人員講說屬於選舉參與選舉活動過程裡面涉及到公用資源的時候有哪些分際應該要拿捏我的印象中是有這個規定人種的代表"},{"start":189.153,"end":206.562,"text":"因為政務人員來講的話他是跟著政黨選舉還有政策成敗進退的人員你知道這一次他們行政院的左內閣他們帶著閣約下鄉宣講他們是開自己的車嗎還是坐的是公務車"},{"start":208.501,"end":223.689,"text":"有沒有隨戶陪同隨戶的部分來講的話依照那個就是說警政 內政部他有訂定中央政府機關首長還有特定人士安全內政部那你人總有訂定嗎這個是依照內政部隨戶的部分是內政部所以這個情況之下"},{"start":227.751,"end":253.765,"text":"他隨戶有沒有陪同嗎 據你了解隨戶有沒有陪同隨戶的話 依照內政部的規定他是就是說這個我們有跟檢證署了解政務首長他不分平日或出席活動他的安全維護事項 他如果有需要的話所以也不分是不是職務 是公務還是私務隨戶都要陪同 你的意思是這樣對 但是隨戶陪同他是基於維護這個"},{"start":256.886,"end":273.138,"text":"政務首長的安全但是他在這個相關的因為這個稅務本身也是綜藝法的使用對象我沒有時間聽您在說這麼多我希望你們能夠去查去了解這一次的行政院閣員參加民進黨所舉辦的人民事頭家的下鄉宣講活動"},{"start":277.481,"end":286.888,"text":"到底有沒有利用公共資源 利用行政資源警察有沒有幫忙開道 學會有沒有陪同 是不是公務駕駛開車這個部分麻煩請你們一個禮拜之內先給我一個報告"},{"start":292.972,"end":318.594,"text":"好 那我要講的就是說其實這個社會上面過去一段一再的有在講就是為什麼我們目前只有公務人員的行政中立法只有事務官才要遵守行政中立那我們的政務官我們不會首長不需要遵守行政中立嗎考試院是不是之前也曾經有提過政務人員中立法的這個草案"},{"start":321.386,"end":345.826,"text":"並不是用政務人員中立法這個草案我印象中是屬於政務人員法整體的一個概念的草案所以你們之前有提過政務人員法的草案對 之前是 那現在呢目前因為那個法案研議過程裡面還是有一些不同的一些討論所以一直後來就沒有再繼續往前走好 所以 請問人事總署"},{"start":347.441,"end":365.303,"text":"有沒有計畫要提出政務人員法的相關法案這個部分因為目前政務人員法草案就誠如部長講各界在對於相關的一些議題還有一些總之就是你們不打算提嘛不打算提案嘛在民進黨政府執政的這些年"},{"start":366.448,"end":383.964,"text":"就從來也沒有認真的思考過要不要去提出政務人員法政務人員服務法或政務人員中立法的相關的修法因為在你們現在執政的這個階段裡面我們看到的部會首長政務官就是"},{"start":385.228,"end":412.2,"text":"毫無忌憚幫忙助選然後幫忙各式各樣的罷免然後公投宣言獎等等的活動在外界看來這就是非常鮮明的明顯的這就是違反行政中立可是毫無作為考試院也沒有作為人事總署也沒作為據我了解之前考校考試院也曾經有提出過政務人員服務法但是到了行政院人事總署這裡又沒有積極的提"},{"start":413.18,"end":431.428,"text":"然後你們在那裡這個強調提案的修法權限是行政院那如果是你們是認為是行政院應該有權修法你就提啊也不提那明明就是考試院你們才是主管機關你們也應該要提可是卻不作為卻待於作為"},{"start":433.305,"end":453.96,"text":"我這邊想要提醒部長,就是在外界一般老百姓現在大家的眼睛是雪亮的,誰中立誰不中立,清清楚楚我有時候覺得我們的公務人員宿官是很可憐,他們其實很無奈,他們收到長官的指示"},{"start":455.404,"end":476.614,"text":"硬是叫他們去配合做一些行政不中立的事那真正的罪魁禍首政務官卻沒有任何一個法律可以去拘束這樣是合理嗎是不是可以請兩個單位可以在一個月之內提出一份如何督促政務人員要遵守行政中立的法制延期報告給本席"},{"start":478.325,"end":501.187,"text":"可以嗎請部長還有人事總處這邊請你們分別提一份就是看看其他國家怎麼制定相關的規定吧對我認為說眾人員遵守行政中立是非常非常重要的這個一個月之內可以提報告給本席"},{"start":502.23,"end":526.563,"text":"我們會把一個初步的意見跟這個委員做一個報告好的 謝謝部長那接下來我要再講的就是剛剛吳思瑤說國民黨不中立國民黨行政不中立他的這句話基本上是有語病的國民黨現在是執政黨嗎在現在的執政政府不要忘記是民進黨"},{"start":528.123,"end":540.799,"text":"如果說是涉及各個縣市的話他就具體舉出勢力什麼叫做國民黨行政不中立那麼當然對於像是這個民進黨政府在他們"},{"start":543.779,"end":556.225,"text":"這個執政期間裡面所做的違反行政不中立的事情已經是逐番不備載這個太多太多了那麼我這裡我就不講然後另外呢我還有再請這個中選會好最後一個問題麻煩請中選會"},{"start":564.022,"end":592.775,"text":"委員好我想請教一下中選會從2015年到2024年大概我們這裡做了一個這個重計表就是應該有八件的罷免案請問在這個罷免這個八件的罷免案當中有沒有死人連署跟偽造文書的情形報告委員這幾件裡面都有提前死亡跟連署前死亡的那請問就是你們過去對於這些案子你們曾經有提出告發嗎"},{"start":593.789,"end":616.814,"text":"有有哪些全部都有這八個案子都有都有那麼最近的一件謝國良的案子你們什麼時候提出告發的我們是在去年年底去年年底提出告發是是好我希望你們可以把這些案子的這個相關的這個提出告發的時間還有你們在中選會裡面處理的狀況提一份報告給我可以嗎是"},{"start":621.476,"end":640.276,"text":"麻煩請兩個禮拜之內提出相關的案子的告發的時間你們處理狀況給我那我想請教的就是韓國瑜市長還有謝國良市長的告發案是在罷免案之前還是罷免案之後所提出的兩位都是在罷免案之後"},{"start":643.05,"end":651.567,"text":"罷免案之後那這次為什麼中選會會違反過去的行政做法沒有等到整個罷免案結束之後才提起告發"},{"start":653.891,"end":673.826,"text":"因為以前怎麼這樣子處理我這邊也沒有辦法跟委員做說明但是因為提議的階段算是罷免其中的一個結果的一個呈現那我們就想說在提議的階段裡面既然已經有死亡連署跟偽造的這樣子的一個情勢了我們就把這一部分的問題先移送"},{"start":675.948,"end":705.335,"text":"我想要這邊想要強調就是過去所有的告發案中選會的告發案據我所了解當然我沒有看到前面的案子的告發的時間但是就算有告發理論上來說依照前面幾個案前兩案的處理都是在罷免案投票結束之後才提起告發這次中選會的做法其實已經違反了你們過去的行政慣例行政作業的做法而且我覺得也不make sense"},{"start":707.446,"end":731.662,"text":"那這個部分的話你說中選會有沒有違反行政中立他的做法上面有沒有瑕疵我認為其實是有的如果說中選會要改變過去的做法的話其實是不是應該也要早點講更何況我們現在中選會依照你們自己的法律解釋目前還適用舊法在舊法的階段可能還不涉及到去適用選辦法第98條之二我們這次新修的法"},{"start":734.577,"end":741.848,"text":"報告委員那因為我們講的那個新舊法的適用最主要是在選務辦理的一個程序的部分"},{"start":742.895,"end":744.116,"text":"好的 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時18分）主席好，首先先請施部長，還有人事總處人事長。今天人總有代表嗎？不好意思，我剛剛沒有看到。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天看到銓敘部和人事總處的報告裡面其實都有提到一個重點，就是有關於行政中立的部分，看起來目前法規上面只有針對公務人員才有行政中立法。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是政務官，因為到目前為止都沒有制定政務人員的行政中立法，所以部長以及在人總的報告裡面就認為目前的政務官、部長沒有適用，也不準用公務人員相關法規的解釋嗎？"],["施部長能傑：他確實不是適用這個法律，也不是準用這個法律，但是他還是有一些應該遵守的行為規則。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。我想在人總的報告裡面有提到，政務官雖然不適用公務人員行政中立法，但是仍然是有公務員服務法的適用。"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：可能銓敘部的報告裡面也有寫到，只是我記得沒有那麼清楚。特別是公務員服務法第二十條的規定，講到公務員非因職務需要不得動用行政資源。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：就這個部分，是不是我們現在講的政務官、部會首長們也應該要適用公務員服務法第二十條的規定？"],["施部長能傑：服務法是適用政務人員的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是適用政務人員的嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我想請教部長，現在我們看到卓院長率領底下的閣員，參加民進黨所舉辦的「人民是頭家」的政策宣講，我想院長下鄉宣講一定有搭乘自己的公務車吧？有公務駕駛開車，一定也會有隨扈陪同，甚至還有警車開道，請問像這樣的情況，是否屬於動用行政資源？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，這個部分我的理解，行政院應該有一個規範，跟所有政務人員說屬於選舉或參與選舉活動的過程裡面，涉及到公用資源的時候，有哪些分際應該要拿捏，我的印象中是有這個規定的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我請人總的代表，來，你來說一下吧。"],["陳處長月春：以政務人員來講的話，他是跟著政黨選舉及政策成敗進退的人員，所以……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在的問題很簡單，你知道這一次行政院卓內閣帶著閣員下鄉宣講，他們是開自己的車嗎？還是坐的是公務車？有沒有隨扈陪同？"],["陳處長月春：隨扈的部分來講的話，內政部有訂定中央政府機關首長還有特定人士安全……"],["翁委員曉玲：你說內政部，那你們人總有訂定嗎？"],["陳處長月春：這個是依照內政部的法規，隨扈的部分是內政部主管……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以在這個情況之下，隨扈有沒有陪同嘛？據你了解，隨扈有沒有陪同？"],["陳處長月春：隨扈的話，依照內政部的規定，這個我們有跟警政署瞭解，政務首長不分平日或出席活動，他的安全維護事項，他如果有需要的話……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以也不分是公務還是私務，隨扈都要陪同，你的意思是這樣？"],["陳處長月春：對，但是隨扈陪同是基於維護政務首長的安全，隨扈本身也是中立法的適用對象……"],["翁委員曉玲：好。因為時間的關係，我沒有時間聽您再說這麼多，我希望你們能夠去查、去瞭解，這一次行政院閣員參加民進黨所舉辦的「人民是頭家」下鄉宣講活動，到底有沒有利用公共資源，利用行政資源？警察有沒有幫忙開道？隨扈有沒有陪同？是不是公務駕駛開車？這個部分麻煩請你們一個禮拜之內先給我一個報告。","好，我要講的就是說，其實社會上過去有一再地講，為什麼我們目前只有公務人員的行政中立法，只有事務官才要遵守行政中立，我們的政務官、部會首長不需要遵守行政中立嗎？考試院是不是之前也曾經有提過政務人員中立法的草案？"],["施部長能傑：並不是用政務人員中立法這個草案，我印象中是屬於政務人員法整體概念的一個草案。"],["翁委員曉玲：政務人員法？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們之前有提過政務人員法的草案？"],["施部長能傑：對，之前。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。那現在呢？"],["施部長能傑：目前因為那個法案研議過程裡面還是有一些不同的討論，所以後來就沒有再繼續往前走。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請問人事總處，有沒有計畫要提出政務人員法的相關法案？"],["陳處長月春：這個部分，因為目前政務人員法草案就誠如部長講的，各界對於相關的議題還有一些……"],["翁委員曉玲：總之就是你們不打算提嘛，不打算提案嘛，在民進黨政府執政的這些年，從來也沒有認真思考過要不要去提出政務人員法、政務人員服務法或政務人員中立法的相關修法。在你們現在執政的這個階段裡面，我們看到，部會首長、政務官就是毫無忌憚地幫忙助選，然後幫忙各式各樣的罷免和公投宣講等等這些活動。在外界看來，這就是非常鮮明的、明顯的違反行政中立，可是你們毫無作為，考試院也沒有作為，人事總處也沒作為。據我了解，之前好像考試院也曾經提出過政務人員服務法，但是到了行政院人事總處這裡，又沒有積極地提，然後你們在那裡強調提案的修法權限是行政院，如果你們認為行政院應該有權修法的話，你們就提啊，也不提。明明考試院才是主管機關，你們也應該要提，可是卻不作為，怠於作為。我想要提醒部長，在外界，一般老百姓現在大家的眼睛是雪亮的，誰中立、誰不中立清清楚楚，我有時候覺得公務人員、事務官很可憐，他們其實很無奈，他們收到長官的指示，硬是叫他們配合去做一些行政不中立的事，真正的罪魁禍首──政務官卻沒有任何一個法律可以去拘束，這樣合理嗎？是不是可以請兩個單位在一個月之內，提出一份如何督促政務人員遵守行政中立的法制研析報告給本席，可以嗎？"],["施部長能傑：好，我們回去研究。"],["翁委員曉玲：請部長及人事總處分別提一份報告，看看其他國家怎麼制定相關的規定。我認為政務人員遵守行政中立是非常非常重要的，一個月之內可以提報告給本席嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我們會把一個初步的意見跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝部長。","接下來我要講的就是，剛剛吳思瑤說國民黨行政不中立，他這句話基本上是有語病的，國民黨現在是執政黨嗎？現在執政的政府，大家不要忘記是民進黨，如果說涉及各縣市的話，那他就具體舉出事例，什麼叫做國民黨行政不中立？民進黨政府在他們整個執政期間裡面所做的違反行政中立的事情，已經族繁不及備載，太多太多了，我在這裡就不講。","另外，我還要再請中選會回答最後一個問題，麻煩請中選會。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想請教一下中選會，我們做了一個統計表，從2015年到2024年應該有8件罷免案，請問在這8件罷免案當中，有沒有死人連署跟偽造文書的情形？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，這幾件裡面都有，都有提議前死亡跟連署前死亡的狀況。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那請問，過去對於這些案子，你們曾經提出告發嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：有？有哪些？全部都有？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：這8個案子都有。"],["翁委員曉玲：都有？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：最近的一件是謝國樑的案子，你們什麼時候提出告發的？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們是在去年年底。"],["翁委員曉玲：去年年底提出告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望你們可以把這些案子提出告發的時間，還有你們在中選會裡面處理的狀況，提一份報告給我，可以嗎？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：好，是。"],["翁委員曉玲：麻煩請兩個禮拜之內，提出相關案子的告發時間及你們處理的狀況給我。","我想請教的就是，韓國瑜市長及謝國樑市長的告發案，是在罷免案之前還是罷免案之後提出的？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：兩位都是在罷免案之後。"],["翁委員曉玲：罷免案之後？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。那這一次為什麼中選會會違反過去的行政做法，沒有等到整個罷免案結束之後才提起告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：以前怎麼這樣子處理，我這邊也沒有辦法跟委員說明，但是因為提議的階段算是罷免其中一個結果的呈現，那我們就想說，在提議的階段裡面，既然已經有死亡連署跟偽造的情事，我們就把這一部分的問題先移送。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。謝謝專委的說明。我在這邊想要強調的就是，過去所有中選會的告發案，據我所了解，當然我沒有看到前面的案子告發的時間，但是就算有告發，理論上來說，依照前兩案的處理，都是在罷免案投票結束之後才提起告發。這次中選會的作法，其實已經違反了你們過去的行政慣例、行政作業的做法，而且我覺得也不make sense，這個部分的話，你說中選會有沒有違反行政中立？做法上面有沒有瑕疵？我認為其實是有的。如果說中選會要改變過去的做法的話，是不是也應該要早點講？更何況現在中選會依照你們自己的法律解釋，目前還適用舊法，在舊法的階段，可能還不涉及適用選罷法第九十八條之二，就是我們這次新修的法。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：報告委員，我們講的新舊法的適用，最主要是在選務辦理的程序的部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，OK。","因為時間的關係，我在這邊請中選會兩週之內，將2015年開始到現在所有的罷免案，只要是涉及違法情事的相關處理及結果，包括告發日期、不起訴及其他的情形，都提供給本席。"],["唐專門委員效鈞：好的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請林倩綺委員代理主席。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：接下來是吳宗憲委員，我們請吳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160520","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc01b338ddc6c03c15b4d63fb5309bb2e639a3354dc8dbd3a62e5caf0930cab58e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:59:52 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你比早知道了還懂得叫資訊處處長來今天新聞這麼大篇 食藥署沒人來"},{"start":75.593,"end":85.757,"text":"你現在是說在到立法院之前同時有四個委員會需要食藥署同時四個委員會需要食藥署 請問署長來哪一個委員會哪一個 署長在國安會所以你現在給我回答的是什麼問題我在問你食藥署署長有沒有來 副署長有沒有來你說立法院有四個委員會需要他們署長"},{"start":100.803,"end":104.464,"text":"我說署長在哪裡結果你說他不在立法院你說他不在立法院署長不在立法院我實在是不想對你動怒但是我想你今天在到立法院來之前你也受訪了"},{"start":118.772,"end":144.372,"text":"你還講說這個國光藥廠這些白老鼠這些實驗老鼠整個事件違反GMP要罰三到二萬就沒三到兩百萬問題是國光生技包庇這麼嚴重的污染事件有沒有違反GMP都是國光生技說了算嗎好他們今天發了新聞稿"},{"start":145.793,"end":150.415,"text":"國光 雙濟發的新聞稿 兩批 很大批在講動物福利然後 跟你衛福部 跟國人最關注的整個彈職場 彈職場在生產什麼疫苗 你給我講彈職場出事的這個工廠 在生產什麼疫苗 你給我回答"},{"start":171.44,"end":178.312,"text":"一般流感疫苗 破傷風疫苗那你在生產流感疫苗的"},{"start":180.567,"end":200.414,"text":"結果他們對於整個事情最後一段才提到他說他們內部調查確認上述實驗動物事件在作業程序上存在可進一步完善之處那相關部門依憑管系統啟動現場實地查核要求研發相關人員接受重新訓練"},{"start":201.994,"end":217.103,"text":"所以還有改善之處 人員要重新訓練沒有遵守實驗動物相關的SOP處理流程 他們會陷阱完成改善那本公司有嚴謹的設施區隔和管控措施並嚴格遵守相關規範 如果這樣 今天這個必責那些商品不是都AI合成的"},{"start":224.858,"end":233.163,"text":"他們說他們公司嚴格遵守相關規範研發實驗室和GMP管控的疫苗生產製造和品管檢驗場所在物理空間環境控制系統人員和物料動線以及所適用的管理規範上均各自獨立且完全區隔所以他認為有改善之處但是他們沒有問題他們沒有問題請問"},{"start":253.456,"end":258.662,"text":"這個接避者的所有的照片 都合成的你們現在才要說 今天你知道 看了報紙報導才知道"},{"start":266.865,"end":288.867,"text":"問題這麼嚴重關係到流感疫苗有沒有受到污染你們現在是整個部裡面神經斷掉你說現在要去查現在幾個月以後快一年啦你現在才要去查你能查到什麼你在這裡說要去調查去年事發到現在八個多月現在去查場能查什麼"},{"start":289.668,"end":314.067,"text":"老鼠的毛有嗎尿液有嗎你的實驗器材你的微量吸管菌質藥劑的試管震盪混合器你的檢測核酸DND濃度的精密儀器有沒有汙染你的製冰機恆溫水槽實驗袍有沒有暴露在汙染的實驗當中它的汙染有沒有造成實驗數據的"},{"start":316.229,"end":339.14,"text":"失真通通都沒辦法查了啦 重點是要查什麼不是你說你現在馬上去調查 最快速度跟大家報告可以解決現在是要完整的收集吹哨者的資料和說法而不是讓國光生氣 包庇 隻手遮天 欺上瞞下"},{"start":341.499,"end":351.446,"text":"不對 我這樣說 你也忙著聽你部署給你報告 你也不知道剛才休息十分鐘 你也不想去了解 現在就要臨時報佛教今天看到了根據媒體鋪路 我們現在看到的是你們需要署你們衛福部食品安全也靠吹哨者 藥品安全也要靠吹哨者"},{"start":367.995,"end":374.137,"text":"藥廠螺絲酸了 重點是這個藥廠這件事一夜之秋啊 見為知著啊整個藥廠的螺絲鬆了它不是單一事件 而且人家照片人員指證利率"},{"start":391.274,"end":401.105,"text":"你們在去年這個事情之後不要忘了國光發生了基隆市衛生局的通報事件"},{"start":402.374,"end":421.787,"text":"國光的流感疫苗這個外觀呈現黃色同批號回收18.3萬劑我問你你們這個事情已經過了這麼久了去年的10月到現在半年了請問這一批疫苗是哪一個廠製造的國光這一批出了問題的疫苗是哪一個廠製造的談是不是談紙廠"},{"start":432.605,"end":434.366,"text":"台中攤子是不是也是攤子廠是不是是啊 所以我說啊我說啊這個有氣螺絲掉滿地啊你們的螺絲也掉滿地"},{"start":449.403,"end":468.088,"text":"你們在出現這個疫苗變色的這個事件之後你們機關署初步判定非微生物污染認為是單一案例然後你們食藥署也是根據國光生技提交的調查報告"},{"start":470.493,"end":484.618,"text":"給專家審查然後認定是單一事件如今隨著今天的新聞披露內部的吹哨者才爆發出同樣這一個台中彈指廠國光生技實驗室爆發這麼嚴重的污染整個藥廠從研發到生產可能"},{"start":497.586,"end":521.174,"text":"整個螺絲都鬆動啊所以不是不是當初疫苗變色流感疫苗出問題單一事件當時你也說單一現在又說單一一個單一事件再加一個單一事件只要屬衛福部都是廠商說了算嗎看起來像是像是啊"},{"start":525.404,"end":528.466,"text":"補充你也說看看,現在是怎樣藥廠螺絲鬆了,掉滿地了主管機關衛福部都聽藥廠的報告然後就以單一事件結案了事然後一次又一次我們絕對不會只有聽藥廠的報告,它只是一個報告而已最重要我們會親自去查"},{"start":553.468,"end":557.171,"text":"會查核 你問我現在問你啦 今天你報到的事件 你要怎麼查核 經過各位要怎麼查核我們也去查核啦 你要去查什麼啦 老鼠的毛也掉不到找不到 有人也查不到"},{"start":569.34,"end":586.264,"text":"這個部分他照片呈現的部分是研發部門啦那當然研發部門也必須要保護他的研發部門都這麼隨便了你怎麼知道生產部門不隨便那生產部門的部分如果再有一個吹哨者吹出生產部門也是這樣俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐俐那我要你政府幹什麼"},{"start":599.909,"end":619.442,"text":"我們當然會全力按照一個最好的制度來所以我問你啊這次你要怎麼調查不要靠大家一起來努力靠大家是靠誰啊大家要靠你政府啦你政府要靠我們大家政府當然是擔任最大的一個責任我現在就問你這個事件你要怎麼查你說馬上去查現在去調查還能調查什麼我問你啊"},{"start":631.519,"end":641.865,"text":"我們當然是把所有整個實驗室的作業程序完全環境的一個紀錄那個紀錄 現在你就要調查啊 大家也做好給你看沒有啦 今天就隨便你查嘛啊就稍微曝光啊 人家就知道要曝光啊而且要訪談人家 人都知道啦來釐清我們報紙 媒體的報導的適合違反利用期 要司法的57條你光是認為立委很好呼嚨 連派一個主責機關的任何一個"},{"start":661.007,"end":669.592,"text":"高層來都沒有就知道你不在乎這個事情我們很在乎你在乎你告訴我食藥署派了誰來剛開始那個誰因為署長沒有來副署長沒有來署長在開國安的會議副署長在經濟委員會另外一個因為你今天派的是食品組的檢認記證來啦"},{"start":689.668,"end":697.712,"text":"我們另外一個副市長他本來回署裡面他現在已經在過來的路上你一個資訊案資訊的議題你就這樣資訊處處長趕快來年老公園院的就趕快來現在你業務主管的你核心的你最最最核心的業務主管的你連派個像樣的人都沒有業務單位通通都沒有"},{"start":717.702,"end":727.731,"text":"所以你也螺絲鬆了 算了 螺絲都不是鬆了 是掉滿地了國關藥廠的螺絲掉滿地 理事藥署衛福部的螺絲也掉滿地對不對 我現在再問你一次"},{"start":739.11,"end":744.254,"text":"我們在講說因為美國對等關稅的議題你上個禮拜來報告然後FDA食藥署裡面認為美國的輸入的藥品的許可證214張裡面在專利期限"},{"start":759.028,"end":780.534,"text":"替代性低的非買美國藥不可的有60個健保署說的數字當然不一樣健保署說美國進口的藥物一共有176個其中有72個在必要藥品清單包括抗腫瘤免疫相關藥物24項還有感染相關用藥及血液相關藥物各18項"},{"start":783.335,"end":787.998,"text":"這個東西我先跟你要資料請你們在三天內提供以上清單給我們辦公室我們來看看兩邊的數據兜不起來嘛那你把清單給我們然後再來就是說我上次只談到藥品醫材那現在問你說對於公費疫苗會不會受到美國關稅政策影響公費疫苗我國公費疫苗"},{"start":810.791,"end":835.2,"text":"製造廠在美國 距離上個禮拜來這裡你們的報告也已經過了一個禮拜了 你有沒有思考過這個議題我們最近一次疾管署採購的公費疫苗當中水痘疫苗 麻疹 篩腺炎 德國麻疹混合疫苗23架的肺炎鏈球菌多醣體疫苗的製造廠"},{"start":835.7,"end":857.436,"text":"都是美國廠採購合約都為美國莫沙東除此以外FDA合法的水痘和德國麻疹疫苗的藥證當中疫苗製造廠在美國的比例相當相當的高如果日後的關稅政策影響採購其他國家不是只有台灣要去搶喔"},{"start":859.045,"end":863.709,"text":"其他國家也一定會去講那個替代的藥廠選效但台灣市場小本來就沒有市場的這個這個市場的談判的能力在各國競爭之下你認不認為公費疫苗會不會有缺藥的問題"},{"start":880.743,"end":885.488,"text":"這個不是預算夠不夠有沒有被在野黨凍結喔這個是你有錢也沒有辦法在時間內完成採購買不到的問題台灣的公衛會受到相當相當的衝擊喔蛤 有沒有"},{"start":898.427,"end":907.332,"text":"包委員我想這個部份食藥機關使會做已經很早就會表示在議員這種狀況另外我們也也致力了疫苗產業委員會你不要在這裡關槍關掉再官宣一遍啦你告訴我你可不可以保證絕對不會受到衝擊"},{"start":920.817,"end":927.445,"text":"我現在問你一句話啦 麻疹疫苗 台灣自己有本土手在做這個疫苗嗎 有喔目前台灣沒有麻疹的疫苗是不是全部都有採購 越南有5.4萬例 雖然台灣都是還算是還可以"},{"start":939.6,"end":956.508,"text":"但是不要忘了 台灣到越南旅遊現在是旺季 人數大幅攀升台灣的麻疹疫苗有續創6年同期新高如果爆發全球大流行沒有台灣本土自製的麻疹疫苗 蛤 怎麼辦"},{"start":959.709,"end":968.678,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們目前國內的一個疫苗的麻疹疫苗的接種率大概都是至少95%以上所以整個全國的一個對呀小孩子都按照時間一定要啊所以我現在告訴你"},{"start":975.504,"end":994.437,"text":"採購的可能是OK下一次要漲價那你的預算怎麼辦你怎麼因應那有錢買不到的時候你怎麼因應各位媒體我們目前疫苗的採購政策大概主要還是跟多國來採購那我們都會採多年的一個合約來你告訴我現在就現在的這個多年合約多國採購現在美國製造的"},{"start":999.58,"end":1026.71,"text":"比例算多少那其他非美國製造當大家大幅去搶的時候他採購的時候遞延了送貨到貨的日子怎麼辦確實在短期之內應該沒有問題因為目前的採購合約那我再問你流感疫苗台灣的流感疫苗都叫做國光哩哩哩哩哩哩哩走台灣的流感疫苗國產的市占率多高其他都要外國採購"},{"start":1028.774,"end":1046.223,"text":"國光的疫苗本土自製的流感疫苗佔多少比例我們去年大概採購了將近700萬劑的疫苗那國光大概有將近500萬劑所以在流感疫苗這個部分我們自製的比例算是比較高的"},{"start":1046.983,"end":1063.316,"text":"有沒有原料上的這個風險 原料上 比如說自製的比例五百多萬高端是買回來分裝的台灣只有國光跟高端 而你沒有說的是高端是給外國買好做好回來分裝是啊你這個給外國買的人 大家也要買這沒有 這沒有"},{"start":1070.402,"end":1089.169,"text":"都沒有任何風險嗎有關目前流感疫苗的國產的一個部分就是像剛剛委員說的就是目前有國光跟高端那高端的疫苗目前其實只是在台灣分裝他們的原液是從韓國進來的對啊 我在問妳說原液 如果大家搶著要原液"},{"start":1089.889,"end":1090.269,"text":"國光跟高端各占多少萬劑?"},{"start":1104.906,"end":1131.678,"text":"以去年的一個採購的一個結果去年國光是採購將近500萬劑那因為高端的一個在評選的一個結果呢是屬於序位比較低的所以他們的劑量相對來講要少很多好那接下來就是希望你們對國光藥廠的把關要好一點那我今天為什麼要講這個因為下一波傳染病大流行來的時候呢"},{"start":1132.628,"end":1161.762,"text":"Who can help部長你現在講了大流行協定WHO的會員國大流行協定達成共識了而且在台灣時間這個月的16號就通過了爭議慶條文達成共識了5月召開的WHA就要正式通過而且簽署了但是呢我們都知道我們最友好的美國要退出WHO了"},{"start":1164.002,"end":1181.948,"text":"那這個東西美國退出WHO對我們在非WHOWHA會議上能表達的有限的狀況裡面大流行協定主要三個部分在取得共識是防疫議題"},{"start":1183.288,"end":1204.773,"text":"病毒株資訊分享 技術移轉我們沒有辦法參與談判 我們沒有辦法成為締約國我們在這種狀況裡面 照上次新冠疫情我們沒有辦法相互馬上得到資源的疫苗要不然病毒的資訊 也是有一點困難和障礙在這種狀況裡面 你們要怎麼因應啊 保定啊"},{"start":1211.75,"end":1227.656,"text":"失去了最重要的最有力的盟國美國的幫忙那我們要怎麼因應我想我們跟美國這些理念相近國家在醫藥上的合作是絕對持續不斷我現在問你說美國退出WHO之後他退出WHO以後對我們參加WHA的大會"},{"start":1237.501,"end":1244.626,"text":"對我們未來面對如果新興的大流行這個大流行病的這個衝擊我們會受到什麼影響"},{"start":1249.178,"end":1269.629,"text":"我想請委員放心 我們有COVID的經驗來看我們的政府 我們的人民 我們的防疫的成效是世界有名的而且我們來支援國際 為什麼那麼多國家國家問你不是這個 那當初都知道上次的經驗是因為我們有半導體產業拿去換啦"},{"start":1273.39,"end":1290.917,"text":"現在我們被迫要到美國設廠了我們連籌碼的重要性都遞減了我想委員要對我們台灣的防疫有信心我現在問你因應的方法是什麼不是只有精神上的信心你要提出具體的政策比如說你現在都講不出來你們都忘掉了比如說你們的CDMO"},{"start":1300.861,"end":1312.311,"text":"你知道你們的CDMO政策信心是要建立在具體的政府的作為政府面對下一波挑戰你最未雨綢繆"},{"start":1314.659,"end":1332.658,"text":"我們看得到你未雨綢繆當新冠突然來的時候全世界沒有發生過所以我們措手不及好努力去反應這個是可以的可是當有這樣子慘痛的經驗之後我們現在不能再像新冠那樣子"},{"start":1333.971,"end":1358.134,"text":"而且在新冠的時候同樣的在這個地方衛福部也做了一些報告你們提出來的報告當初是用半導體產業的優勢去換取這個疫苗那當初過了以後我們在講我們要發展台灣向國際爭取CDMO你知道什麼是CDMO吧"},{"start":1359.249,"end":1387.144,"text":"你那時候在這個委員會我還被踢出去這個委員會CDMO2021年專案報告題目叫做爭取COVID-19新冠肺炎國際疫苗代工策略目前我國各項疫苗政策方向疫苗準備情形及109年8月AZ疫苗研發團隊來台探尋代工疫苗評估過程當時你們衛福部就講"},{"start":1389.076,"end":1415.152,"text":"要發展台灣成為國際疫苗CDMO的夥伴CDMO當你們把新冠肺炎降階為第四類傳產以後你們指揮中心同時解編以後整個面對新興的大流行的這些病毒現在是怎樣CDMO現在是"},{"start":1419.64,"end":1428.609,"text":"這個叫政習人亡還是什麼的還是頭過心就過還是等下一波大傳染病大流行時的時候我們再來頭目在燒到底是要怎麼樣你們的CDMO在哪裡你叫我有信心我希望你給我們信心政府跟衛福部"},{"start":1438.559,"end":1447.325,"text":"都有針對新興的一個我現在問你CDMO你不要打高空你的CDMO現在是如何陸續在討論陸續在討論但是因為條件有相當多的差距陸續在討論所以我們不能說我現在講因為美國的保護主義心情美國的對等關稅"},{"start":1463.636,"end":1475.278,"text":"所以有沒有可能你即便你的CDMO可能的疫苗代工合作模式也會遇到障礙因為美國政府川普要連他們的藥廠都必須回去美國製造你CDMO連談都沒有談成然後如果當他們要求全部都搬回美國再一次如果發生這樣子像COVID-19這種疫情我們要怎麼自救"},{"start":1489.141,"end":1495.126,"text":"我們當然以最成全的方式來應變我十問你都虛答但是我十問你都答不出來你都沒在想耶你都沒在想耶我們全部的政府跟對付主的同仁日益企業在因應各種變化"},{"start":1510.031,"end":1518.905,"text":"五月就要到了失去美國這個這麼重要的夥伴他們退出WHO他們明年才會退出 今年還會參加今年還必須要繳費 我知道今年還必須 因為要提前一年告知"},{"start":1524.926,"end":1529.51,"text":"我們還會 還是跟美國的重要的關係我們要自立自強啦 我在講自立自強所以政府規劃當初說政府規劃主導成立新公司國發基金來投資招募民間生技廠商入股這個成立新版的生技條例委託代工CDMO你們還有租稅優惠條款"},{"start":1552.19,"end":1571.271,"text":"要跟莫德納談MRNA平台的技術移轉然後當初還講鎖定到台北地區一處現有的廠房然後莫德納在去年跟三星簽訂了CDMO合約在日本、澳洲同步設有辦公室"},{"start":1572.432,"end":1595.818,"text":"而且在香港、馬來西亞和新加坡增設子公司2022年到台灣合作所提到的未來開發重點請問當初你們講的是現在進行式還是已經成為過去式了不是進行式我們有成立一個國家疫苗產業合作標準對啦 進行式那進行到哪裡現在不是過去式吧當然是進行式啊"},{"start":1599.58,"end":1604.688,"text":"那美國政府要求藥廠回流本土製造有沒有衝擊我們會密切來評估"},{"start":1609.181,"end":1630.329,"text":"你藥品也沒有評估出來醫材然後現在告訴你公費疫苗公費疫苗你也沒有辦法好 新加坡已經成功的跟BNT建立疫苗生產基地越南也成為歐盟授權生產的重要基地因為美國大家都衝擊很大所以分散風險韓國"},{"start":1633.03,"end":1649.6,"text":"也透過美國他們在莫德納他們在做合作但是新加坡越南他們都跟歐盟在合作所以下一波疫情來之前你可以告訴我們說放心絕對沒有問題我們都CDMO也準備好了我們的衝擊也沒有問題如果你這樣講"},{"start":1657.405,"end":1662.711,"text":"講出具體的政策那我就相信但你今天在這裡什麼都講不出來你什麼都回答不出來"},{"start":1664.113,"end":1672.419,"text":"這是我們擔心的 不是精神上喊話就可以的我們買足夠的疫苗 經過專家的評估買足夠的疫苗 疫苗是動態的 持續動態的不是你現在精快買足夠就夠的 當重大的做到什麼 你在講什麼 我有說浪費公帑嗎不是空話 這個就是真的在做啊"},{"start":1689.591,"end":1697.713,"text":"我現在提醒你是 這是一個動態的狀態 動態的狀態因為你這一波的流感 光是你們的相關的疫苗 我剛剛講那些疫苗 小兒疫苗從美國採購的很多 很多 連預算都受到衝擊連預算都受到衝擊 這個預算是公務預算那你的公務預算如果短少了 怎麼辦"},{"start":1713.866,"end":1728.559,"text":"我們這是疫苗基金啦我們疫苗的基金我們會隨時來注意它的充分請委員放心也請國務院放心我很想對政府放心但是我對你邱太元就不放心啦不用對我放心對政府對衛福部要有信心謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時）是不是請邱部長？"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天在野黨委員質詢所謂的醫療資訊大平台的議題，所以你們派了資訊處處長來，工研院也派了法務長來，今天你最核心的業務，你們主管的國光藥廠出了這麼大的新聞，你說一大早就知道了，你通通都沒有派任何業務單位的人來，今天食藥署來列席的本來是一位簡任技正，你現在是當作立法院不會問這個問題，立法院立委對這個議題都不煩惱嗎？在野黨要問什麼你提早知道了，還懂得叫資訊處處長來，今天新聞這麼大篇食藥署沒有人來，你現在是說，在到立法院之前……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在同時有四個委員會需要食藥署，那個……"],["林委員淑芬：同時四個委員會需要食藥署，請問署長去哪一個委員會？哪一個？"],["邱部長泰源：食藥署署長在國安會。"],["林委員淑芬：所以你現在回答我那個是什麼問題！我在問你食藥署署長有沒有來？副署長有沒有來？你說立法院有四個委員會需要署長；我說署長在哪裡？結果你說他不在立法院。"],["邱部長泰源：有一個署長在經濟委員會。"],["林委員淑芬：你說他不在立法院，現在你跟我說這個……"],["邱部長泰源：署長……"],["林委員淑芬：不要說這個啦！"],["邱部長泰源：署長不在立法院。"],["林委員淑芬：我實在是很不想對你動怒，但是我要講，你今天到立法院之前，你也受訪了，你還講說國光藥廠這些白老鼠、這些實驗老鼠，整個事件違反GMP要罰3到2萬，就沒……"],["邱部長泰源：3到200萬。"],["林委員淑芬：3到200萬，問題是國光生技包庇這麼嚴重的污染事件，連有沒有違反GMP都是國光生技說了算嗎？國光生技今天發了兩篇新聞稿，很大篇在說動物福利，然後跟衛福部、跟國人最關注的整個潭子廠。潭子廠在生產什麼疫苗，你跟我說？出事的這個工廠在生產什麼疫苗？你跟我回答。你不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：一般流感疫苗、破傷風疫苗。"],["林委員淑芬：好，流感疫苗，在生產流感疫苗的工廠，結果它們對於整個事情在新聞稿最後一段才提到說，他們內部調查確認上述實驗動物事件，在作業程序上存在可進一步完善之處，相關部門依品管系統啟動現場實地查核，並要求研發相關人員接受重新訓練，所以還有改善之處，人員要重新訓練，沒有遵守實驗動物相關SOP處理流程，他們會限期完成改善，本公司有嚴謹的設施區隔和管控措施，並嚴格遵守相關規範。如果是這樣，今天揭弊者的那些相片不就都是AI合成的。公司說嚴格遵守相關規範，研發實驗室和GMP管控的疫苗生產、製造、品管、檢驗場所，在物理空間、環境控制系統、人員和物料動線以及所適用的管理規範上，均各自獨立且完全區隔，所以它認為有改善之處，但是它們沒有問題。請問這個揭弊者所有的照片不就都是假的、都合成的。","你們現在才說看到報紙報導才知道，問題這麼嚴重，關係到流感疫苗有沒有受到污染，你們現在是整個部裡面神經斷掉，你說現在就要去查，現在……幾個月以後快一年了，你現在才要去查你能查到什麼，你在這裡說要去調查，去年事發到現在八個多月，現在去查廠能查什麼？老鼠的毛有嗎？尿液有嗎？它的實驗器材、它的微量吸管均質藥劑的試管振盪混合器、它的檢測核酸DNA濃度的精密儀器有沒有污染、它的製冰機、恆溫水槽、實驗袍有沒有暴露在污染的實驗當中、它的污染有沒有造成實驗數據的失真，通通都沒辦法查了啦！重點是要查什麼？現在不是你說馬上去調查，用最快速度跟大家報告可以解決，現在是要完整地蒐集吹哨者的資料和說法，而不是讓國光生技包庇、隻手遮天、欺上瞞下。","部長，我這樣說，你也忙著聽你的部屬跟你報告，你也不知道，剛才休息10分鐘你也不想去了解，現在才要臨時報佛腳。今天看到根據媒體披露，我們現在看的是食藥署、衛福部，食品安全也靠吹哨者、藥品安全也要靠吹哨者，藥廠螺絲鬆了，重點是藥廠這件事情一葉知秋、見微知著，整個藥廠的螺絲鬆了！它不是單一事件，而且人家照片人員指證歷歷，不要忘了國光發生基隆市衛生局的通報事件，國光的流感疫苗外觀呈現黃色，同批號回收18.3萬劑，我問你，你們這個事情已經過了這麼久了，去年的10月到現在半年了，請問這一批疫苗是哪一個廠製造的？國光這一批出了問題的疫苗，是哪一個廠製造的？是不是潭子廠？臺中潭子是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：是，潭子廠。"],["林委員淑芬：是啊！所以我說，這個藥廠螺絲掉滿地啊！你們的螺絲也掉滿地。你們在出現疫苗變色的事件之後，疾管署初步判定非微生物污染，認為是單一案例，然後食藥署也是根據國光生技提交的調查報告給專家審查，然後認定是單一事件。如今隨著今天的新聞披露，內部的吹哨者才爆發出同樣是臺中潭子廠國光生技實驗室，爆發這麼嚴重的污染，整個藥廠從研發到生產可能整個螺絲都鬆動了，所以不是當初疫苗變色、流感疫苗出問題的單一事件。當時你也說單一，現在又說單一，一個單一事件再加一個單一事件，食藥署、衛福部都是廠商說了算嗎？看起來像是啊！","部長，你也說說看，現在是怎樣？藥廠螺絲鬆了、掉滿地了，主管機關──衛福部都聽藥廠的報告，就以單一事件結案了事，然後一次又一次。"],["邱部長泰源：我們絕對不會只有聽藥廠的報告，它只是一個報告而已，最重要的是我們就會親自去查核，會查核……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你，就今天報導的事件你要怎麼查核？經過好幾個月了要怎麼查核？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會去查核。"],["林委員淑芬：你要去查什麼？老鼠的毛也調不到、找不到，污染也查不到啦！"],["邱部長泰源：查核的部分，第一個跟大家報告一下，照片呈現的這個部分是研發部門，那當然研發部門也必須要保持它的……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在說這是螺絲鬆了，研發部門都這麼隨便，你怎麼知道生產部門不隨便。"],["邱部長泰源：生產部門的部分……"],["林委員淑芬：如果再有一個吹哨者，吹出生產部門也是這樣「離離落落」……"],["邱部長泰源：當然我們一樣嚴加調查……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在是沒有政府了，都要靠吹哨者，你的食品安全靠吹哨者、你的藥品安全、疫苗安全也要靠吹哨者，那我要你政府幹什麼！"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然會全力按照最好的制度來努力，在這當中……"],["林委員淑芬：所以我問你，這次你要怎麼調查？"],["邱部長泰源：也要靠大家一起來努力。"],["林委員淑芬：靠大家是要靠誰？大家要靠你政府，你政府還要靠我們大家！"],["邱部長泰源：政府當然要承擔最大的責任，而且要負全責。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你這個事件要怎麼查，你說馬上去查，現在去調查還能調查什麼？我問你。"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然是把整個實驗室的作業程序、環境的紀錄……"],["林委員淑芬：現在你要調查了，大家當然做好給你看。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，今天就馬上去查……"],["林委員淑芬：新聞就已經曝光，大家昨天就知道要曝光。"],["邱部長泰源：事件調查紀錄，而且要訪談人員，來釐清媒體的報導，是否違反藥事法第五十七條。"],["林委員淑芬：你認為立委很好糊弄，連派主責機關的高層來都沒有，就知道你不在乎這個事情。"],["邱部長泰源：我們很在乎。"],["林委員淑芬：你在乎，你告訴我剛開始食藥署派誰來？誰？署長沒有來、副署長沒有來。"],["邱部長泰源：因為署長在開國安會議，副署長在經濟委員會，另外因為……"],["林委員淑芬：你今天本來派的是食品組的簡任技正來。"],["邱部長泰源：另外一個副署長，他本來回署裡面，現在已經在過來的路上。"],["林委員淑芬：你一個資訊的議題，就趕快把資訊處處長叫來，工研院也趕快叫來，而現在最、最、最核心的業務主管單位，你連派個像樣的人來都沒有，業務單位通通都沒有，所以你螺絲鬆了，螺絲不是鬆了，是掉滿地！"],["邱部長泰源：我們有監管組，專門管理藥廠的監管組組長。"],["林委員淑芬：國光藥廠的螺絲掉滿地，你們食藥署、衛福部的螺絲也掉滿地，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會更加努力。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在再問你一個問題，因為美國對等關稅的議題，你上個禮拜來報告，然後FDA食藥署認為美國輸入藥品的214張許可證裡面，在專利期限替代性低的、非買美國藥不可的有60個，健保署說的數字當然不一樣，健保署說，美國進口的藥物一共有176個，其中有72個在必要藥品清單，包括抗腫瘤、免疫相關藥物24項，還有感染相關用藥及血液相關藥物各18項，請你們在3天之內，提供以上清單給我們辦公室，因為兩邊的數據兜不起來，你先把清單給我們。","再來，我上次只談到藥品、醫材，現在問你，對於公費疫苗會不會受到美國關稅政策影響？我國公費疫苗製造廠在美國，距離上個禮拜，你們來這裡報告，也已經過了一個禮拜，你有沒有思考過這個議題？我們最近一次疾管署採購的公費疫苗當中，水痘疫苗、麻疹、腮腺炎、德國麻疹、混合疫苗、23價肺炎鏈球菌多醣體疫苗的製造廠，都是美國廠，採購合約都為美國默沙東，除此以外，FDA核發的水痘和德國麻疹疫苗的藥證當中，疫苗製造廠在美國的比例相當、相當地高，如果日後的關稅政策影響採購，不是只有臺灣要去搶，其他國家也一定會去搶那個替代的藥廠選項，但臺灣市場小，本來就沒有市場談判的能力，在各國競爭之下，你認為公費疫苗會不會有缺藥的問題？這不是預算夠不夠、有沒有被在野黨凍結，這個是你有錢，也沒有辦法在時間內完成採購，買不到的問題，臺灣的公衛會受到相當、相當地衝擊，有沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個部分疾管署很早就預言這種狀況……"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我會不會有問題？會不會受衝擊？"],["邱部長泰源：另外我們也成立了疫苗產業委員會……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要在這裡官腔官調，再官宣一遍，你可不可以保證絕對不會受到衝擊？"],["邱部長泰源：我想請食藥署副署長來回答。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你一句話，麻疹疫苗臺灣自己有本土廠在做疫苗嗎？有嗎？"],["曾副署長淑慧：目前臺灣沒有麻疹的疫苗。"],["林委員淑芬：是不是全部都要採購？"],["曾副署長淑慧：是。"],["林委員淑芬：越南有5.4萬例，雖然臺灣算是還可以，但是不要忘了臺灣到越南旅遊，現在是旺季，人數大幅攀升，臺灣的麻疹疫苗也續創6年同期新高。如果爆發全球大流行，沒有臺灣本土自製的麻疹疫苗，怎麼辦？"],["曾副署長淑慧：跟委員報告，因為目前國內麻疹疫苗的接種率，大概至少95%以上，所以全國的免疫力……"],["林委員淑芬：小孩子都按照時間一定要啊！所以我現在告訴你，你現在採購的可能OK，下一次如果漲價，你的預算怎麼辦？你怎麼因應？有錢買不到的時候，你怎麼因應？"],["曾副署長淑慧：跟委員報告，目前疫苗的採購政策，主要還是跟多國採購，都會採多年的合約，我們會用分批……"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我，就現在的多年合約、多國採購，現在美國製造的比例占多少？其他非美國製造，當大家大幅去搶的時候，採購如果遞延送貨、到貨的日子怎麼辦？"],["曾副署長淑慧：確實在短期之內應該沒有問題，因為目前的採購合約大概都……"],["林委員淑芬：那我再問你，臺灣的流感疫苗，剛剛說國光零零落落地做，臺灣的流感疫苗，國產的市占率多高？其他都要外國採購。"],["曾副署長淑慧：國光的疫苗在我們採購……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問本土自製的流感疫苗占多少比例？"],["曾副署長淑慧：我們去年採購將近七百萬劑的疫苗，國光大概將近五百萬劑，所以在流感疫苗部分，我們自製的比例算是比較高的。"],["林委員淑芬：有沒有原料上的風險？比如說，自製的比例五百多萬，高端是買回來分裝的，臺灣只有國光跟高端，而你沒有說的是，高端是跟外國買做好的回來分裝，你跟外國買的大家也要買，這都沒有任何風險嗎？"],["曾副署長淑慧：有關流感疫苗國產的部分，像剛剛委員說的，目前有國光跟高端，高端的疫苗目前其實只是在臺灣分裝，他們的原液是從韓國進來的。"],["林委員淑芬：我的問題是，如果大家搶著要原液。"],["曾副署長淑慧：國光的疫苗是本土產的，從原料開始製作，到疫苗的生成。"],["林委員淑芬：國光跟高端各占多少萬劑？"],["曾副署長淑慧：以去年採購的結果，去年國光是採購將近五百萬劑，因為高端在評選的結果是屬於序位比較低的，所以他們的劑量相對來講要少很多。"],["林委員淑芬：好、好，接下來就是希望你們對國光藥廠的把關要好一點，我今天為什麼講這個？因為下一波傳染病大流行來的時候，who can help？部長，你現在講的大流行協定，WHO的會員國大流行協定達成共識了，而且在臺灣時間這個(4)月16號就通過爭議性條文達成共識，5月召開WHA就要正式通過而且簽署，但是我們最友好的美國要退出WHO，美國退出WHO，對我們非WHO成員，且在WHA會議上表達受限的狀況之下，大流行協定三個部分在取得共識，主要是防疫議題、病毒株資訊分享、技術移轉，我們沒有辦法參與談判，我們沒有辦法成為締約國，在這種狀況下，照上次新冠疫情，沒有辦法相互馬上得到支援的疫苗，取得藥物和病毒的資訊，也有一點困難和障礙。在這種狀況之下，你們要如何因應，部長？失去了最重要、最有利的盟國，美國的幫忙，我們要如何因應？"],["邱部長泰源：我們與美國等理念相近的國家在醫藥上的合作絕對是持續不斷，不是在WHA或WHO的問題而已。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問的是美國退出WHO之後對我們參加WHA大會、對我們未來面對新興大流行疾病的衝擊會受到什麼影響？"],["邱部長泰源：請委員放心，我們由COVID的經驗來看……"],["林委員淑芬：我要怎麼放心？COVID的經驗很慘啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我們的防疫成效是世界有名，而且我們還支援國際上那麼多的國家……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問的不是這個，上次的經驗是因為我們有半導體產業去換啊！現在我們被迫要去美國設廠，連籌碼的重要性都遞減了。"],["邱部長泰源：委員要對我們臺灣的防疫有信心啊！"],["林委員淑芬：現在是問你因應的方法，不是只有精神上的信心，你要提出具體的政策，現在你們都講不出來、都忘掉了！譬如你們的CDMO？你知道你們的CDMO政策嗎？信心是要建立在具體的政府作為，政府面對下一波挑戰，你必須要未雨綢繆，而且我們看得到你正在未雨綢繆。當新冠突然來的時候，因為全世界都沒發生過，所以我們措手不及，必須努力去反應，這是可以的，但是當有這樣慘痛的經驗之後，現在我們不能再像面對新冠那樣子耶！而且在新冠疫情期間，同樣在這個地方，衛福部也做了一些報告，根據你們提出的報告，當初是用半導體產業的優勢換取疫苗，之後我們說要發展臺灣向國際爭取CDMO，你知道什麼是CDMO吧？那個時候你在這個委員會，而我還被踢出這個委員會耶！CDMO，2021年的專案報告，題目是爭取COVID 19新冠肺炎國際疫苗代工策略，目前我國各項疫苗政策方向、疫苗準備情形及109年8月AZ疫苗研發團隊來臺探詢代工疫苗評估過程。當時你們衛福部就說要發展臺灣成為國際疫苗CDMO的夥伴，蛤？CDMO，當你們把新冠肺炎降階為第四類傳產之後、你們的指揮中心同時解編之後，現在整個面對新興大流行的這些病毒是怎麼樣？現在CDMO是政息人亡或什麼的？或是「頭過身就過」？或是等下一波傳染病大流行的時候，我們再來「頭殼抱咧燒」？到底是要怎麼樣？你們的CDMO在哪裡？你叫我要有信心，但我希望你給我們信心！"],["邱部長泰源：政府及衛福部都有針對新興傳染病……"],["林委員淑芬：現在我是問你CDMO，你不要打高空啦！"],["邱部長泰源：關於這個，我們陸續在談……"],["林委員淑芬：關於CDMO，現在是怎麼樣？這個政策已經死了，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：陸續在討論，但是因為條件有相當多的差距……"],["林委員淑芬：陸續在討論喔！陸續在討論喔！"],["邱部長泰源：我們也不能在太差的條件下答應人家，一定要盡量的講價嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：美國的保護主義興起，面對美國的對等關稅，即便是你的CDMO、可能的疫苗代工合作模式也會遇到障礙，因為美國總統川普要求他們的藥廠也必須回去美國製造。現在你們的CDMO連談都沒有談成，當他們要求全部都搬回美國之後，一旦再次發生像COVID 19那樣的疫情，我們要怎麼自救？蛤？蛤？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然以最周全的方式應變，但是……"],["林委員淑芬：我實問，你都虛答！我實問，你都答不出來！你都沒有在想耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我沒有虛答。"],["林委員淑芬：你都沒有在想耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我們衛福部全部的同仁日以繼夜在因應各種變化……"],["林委員淑芬：你叫他閉嘴，好嗎？","5月就要到了，失去美國這個如此重要的夥伴，他們退出WHO……"],["邱部長泰源：他們明年才會退出，今年還是會參加。"],["林委員淑芬：今年還必須要繳費，我知道，因為要提前一年告知，在未來也會……"],["邱部長泰源：我們與美國的重要官員還是會有互動。"],["林委員淑芬：我們要自立自強啦！"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["林委員淑芬：自立自強！當初說政府規劃主導成立新公司，由國發基金來投資，招募民間生技廠商入股，成立新版的生技條例委託代工CDMO，你們還有租稅優惠條款，要與莫德納談MRNA平台的技術移轉，甚至還說鎖定大臺北地區一處現有的廠房，結果莫德納去年與三星簽訂了CDMO合約，在日本及澳洲同步設有辦公室，而且在香港、馬來西亞及新加坡增設子公司。2022年到臺灣合作所提到的未來開發重點，請問，當初你們講的是現在進行式或是已經成為過去式了？"],["邱部長泰源：都是進行式，我們成立一個國家疫苗產業工作小組，也討論到這個主題。"],["林委員淑芬：既然是進行式，進行到哪裡了？現在不是過去式吧？不是過去式吧？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是進行式啊！"],["林委員淑芬：美國政府要求藥廠回流、本土製造，有沒有衝擊？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會密切評估。"],["林委員淑芬：你們針對藥品及醫材也沒有評估出來，現在對於公費疫苗也沒有辦法……"],["邱部長泰源：在川普關稅提出的第一天，我們全衛福部的各單位都已經對衝擊及因應……"],["林委員淑芬：新加坡已經成功地與BNT建立疫苗生產基地、越南也成為歐盟授權生產的重要基地，因為美國的關稅政策讓大家受到的衝擊都很大，所以要分散風險。除了韓國透過美國與莫德納合作之外，新加坡及越南都是與歐盟合作。因此，在下一波疫情來臨之前，如果你可以告訴我們，放心！絕對沒有問題！我們的CDMO也準備好了、我們面對衝擊也沒有問題！如果你能講出具體的政策，這樣我就會相信，但是你今天在這裡什麼都講不出來、什麼都回答不出來，這是我們擔心的！不是精神上喊話就可以了。"],["邱部長泰源：我們買足夠的疫苗，也經過專家的評估……"],["林委員淑芬：足夠的疫苗？"],["邱部長泰源：買足夠的藥物。"],["林委員淑芬：疫苗是動態的、持續動態的，不是你現在買足夠就夠了。"],["邱部長泰源：預期未來要如何多元化，我們都努力在做，這就是政策啊！為什麼說是空談呢？這是政策啊！"],["林委員淑芬：什麼？你在講什麼？我有說浪費公帑嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，我說這不是空話啊！就是真的在做啊！我們沒有講空話啊！"],["林委員淑芬：我現在是提醒你，這是一個動態的狀態。"],["邱部長泰源：當然是動態的狀態啊！"],["林委員淑芬：光是這一波流感的相關疫苗、剛剛我講的小兒疫苗，有很多很多是從美國採購的，連預算都受到衝擊、連預算都受到衝擊，這個預算是公務預算，如果你的公務預算短少了，怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：這是屬於疫苗基金，我們會隨時注意它的充足，請委員放心、也請國人放心。"],["林委員淑芬：我很想對政府放心，但是我對你邱泰源就不放心啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不用對我放心，對政府、對衛福部要有信心，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝部長。"],["主席（林委員淑芬代）：下一位請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0331978f2872975109ac021369aff85ba9a3354dc8dbd3a623c62e92a3742f1c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:18:16 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他能夠接觸什麼樣的機密那他就要做什麼樣深度跟廣度查核就是說"},{"start":163.783,"end":179.364,"text":"譬如說我們現在整個剛剛您講的絕對機密的話我們查我們查他我們查核的這個整個時間會拉到他過往的七年之久來查核他整個的一個狀況那我們也跟這個"},{"start":181.887,"end":204.27,"text":"儘管會已經同意我們會調取相關的這些金融的資料那我們也會跟儘管單位來調查他的出入境的一些資料那我們也會去做相關的這些理解對於他比如說他可能會被誘吸的可能性包括財務是不是有困難然後他"},{"start":205.51,"end":223.735,"text":"出入境的這個情況是不是有異常等等的那我們也會做一些必要的時候會做一些約旬的動作也就是做滾動式的一個調整而且它在植物調整的時候我們也會做查核也會做查核那接下來本席要請教市長 外交部委員好"},{"start":232.853,"end":260.111,"text":"市長好 賴總統就任之後呢速度來命我們的外交部長林佳龍部長呢擔任了特使來出訪顧邦那林部長昨天也出訪了我們的邦交國史瓦帝尼會見了國王也參加了國王的生日宴那中共也長期在經營非洲的國家他的這個勢力是盤根錯節那今日還施壓史瓦帝尼的經濟鄰國南非"},{"start":262.412,"end":277.017,"text":"要求在三個月三月底把台灣駐南非代表搬離首都而且要更名為台北商務辦事處讓仰賴南非來供電物價運補的"},{"start":279.658,"end":300.217,"text":"這個十國他倍感的這個壓力所以又有傳聞出來說十國官方挺台灣是鬆動的引發了這個討論所以要請教次長部長這一次的出訪是不是也為了因應我國與史瓦帝尼這個關係邦交的關係變化因為目前邦交關係"},{"start":301.898,"end":318.195,"text":"到底大家非常希望知道是不是穩固的還有有沒有其他的邦交國有可能轉向的這個風聲請好 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我們繼續質詢 請張雅玲委員謝謝主席 我們有請次長好 請次長"},{"start":20.822,"end":43.401,"text":"雖然這次萬博我們沒有辦法以台灣的名義參加但是其實我們是有Tech World的名義來參加就是這個玉山數位科技諸事會社希望透過科技的方式來向各國介紹台灣的文化那其實也是呼應了萬博的一個概念就是以應援未來奇蹟之島來呼應大會的主題創造閃耀生命光輝的未來社會強調台灣文化在全球種族背景下的應變能力跟自信的未來"},{"start":44.202,"end":65.427,"text":"所以在八月的時候我們會開始舉辦一系列的跨領域的一些藝文展演來跟世界介紹台灣其實這樣子的模式我在看其實我覺得是蠻好的就是讓世界可以持續的認識台灣尤其是我們台日關係是非常非常友好我們可以透過這樣子的方式更深入兩國的一些交流那其實呢我自己看到就是說"},{"start":66.107,"end":86.335,"text":"在我們去年其實某種程度上我們延續了這個很輝煌的成績就是在15天我們在文化奧運的館台灣館裡面吸引了7萬人次然後透過尼菲亞的演出告訴世界我們是一個非常包容力的文化那當時的很多的小物其實也都熱銷熱賣當時供不應求等等的"},{"start":89.266,"end":102.537,"text":"那其中也有一個什麼千王歌等傳統文化告訴台灣告訴世界我們是個非常有底蘊的一個國家那當時編列了750萬的預算有一個不錯的成績那我知道原本我們在萬博也編列了2000萬那"},{"start":104.919,"end":121.548,"text":"現在我知道就是說我想大家都知道就是因為這被國眾兩黨惡搞之後我想我不確定他們知不知道他們刪了這兩千萬的媒體宣傳費不過我希望次長可不可以簡單說明一下我們原本希望這兩千萬是要做什麼讓大家知道說我們失去了什麼"},{"start":122.569,"end":138.535,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們編列所謂的媒宣費很重要就是其實是要突破現在整個媒體的社群市場基本上等於是被演算法控制那演算法是一個相當唯利是圖的一個演算法就是他希望你透過"},{"start":140.296,"end":155.603,"text":"就是采购的方式才能够进行那所以我们现在的做法就会变成说如果我们失去了这个宣传的经费我们就没有办法我们原本两千万我们的规划是什么所以所有的投放跟采购就没有办法进行我们就只能办理活动"},{"start":156.263,"end":179.278,"text":"然後能夠進行合作然後拜託說我們合作的這些廠商或者是我們合作的這些夥伴利用他們的這些管道來進行宣傳那另外就是我們可以辦記者會雖然我們沒有進行媒體採購但是我們還是可以邀請媒體來那希望他們可以主動對我們做報導那但是在社群上或者在演算上那個部分大概就是沒有辦法防守那個部分大概就是完全要靠自主擴散"},{"start":179.978,"end":207.401,"text":"因為他可能是沒有辦法進行相關的採購的我想這個其實是非常吃力尤其在現代的社會所有的東西都非常需要行銷跟廣告的宣傳才能夠讓我們一個很好的活動更擴大嘛那剛剛有聽到就是次長說我們現在只能夠用非常應該說非常苦功的方式來宣傳那我覺得這對我們台灣是一個非常大的打擊也是一個非常可惜的一個機會那我也想再請教一下就是說我也知道我們國外旅費其實也刪了60%對不對對"},{"start":209.062,"end":237.064,"text":"那這個到底對我們的文化交流會產生什麼樣子的影響呢第一個就是有一些本來要計劃去譬如他要以一個團隊出國去談國際合作的比較是長期性的這一類計劃大概會暫時往後延那因為這種你很難說我減少人減少天就可以達到他還是需要一個比較嚴謹的籌備過程大概有兩個案子是因為這樣子大概會延期那另外就是說我們現在出國的人數天數"},{"start":238.425,"end":258.902,"text":"都降低就是說我們希望他快去快回不是說你去參加你可能就周邊的這些考察資訊交流大概就沒辦法發生就去就回來就這樣了解所以可能聽起來應該是說我們的一些交流的實質影響可能會受損會下降那好那我想這真的是希望就是說未來不要再發生這樣子的事情"},{"start":260.263,"end":283.02,"text":"接下來我們再來談一下國際交流就是說我們在3月10號的時候有看到一個報導就是說講土耳其的台灣中心的捐款的一個爭議報導那其實這個他們也有揭露說可能他們跟文化部申請的一些補助也有資料造假核銷資料造假的一個問題那當時新聞是這樣描述的就是說台灣動畫電影嘉年華的電影放映活動都只是百倍"},{"start":283.6,"end":308.706,"text":"像是收據顯示我們借了場地啊 椅子啊 設備啊但是台灣中心的椅子本來就有啊看電視也只有提供看電影也只有提供爆米花果汁台灣電影聽不懂 字幕也看不懂所以當時這位先生 這位仇先生呢是說我們就換 等到影片拍完之後照片拍完之後我們就換成湯姆貓與傑利鼠的電影所以我想知道我也其實一直有在詢問就是文化部嘛"},{"start":309.932,"end":333.11,"text":"就是我們明明在2023年就爆發爭議也有委員來向台灣中心這個補助案進行質詢但是為什麼文化部在2024年還是補助了這個協會呢我們當時有請他來說明當時的爭議嗎跟委員說明主要是因為這個協會其實是跟外交部共同成立的所以他如果是合法來提出補助那我們也覺得他的計畫看起來是有助於交流的話"},{"start":333.87,"end":353.81,"text":"我們在評審的過程裡就會同意這個補助那在這個案子裡面我們的確有去查那目前我們查出來的包括單據跟放映的情況在台灣中心的部分不管土耳其的部分在台灣中心執行的部分看起來是沒有所謂的不實情況但這個部分我們仍然在調查中但是如果調查出來就是說因為我們本來就有規範這個"},{"start":355.531,"end":379.849,"text":"這個補助款是專案專用所以如果調查出來他的確是有問題的的確是造假的話我們基本上是會追回款項的只是說到目前為止我們沒有什麼證據顯示說他在這一場活動是造假他的電影的確也有播放然後他的這個場地租借也都有有合法的單據目前的我想請問一下市長我們是不是有清查他從2022年之後的一些相關的申請案的一些核銷單據我們在目前一共"},{"start":380.569,"end":408.032,"text":"在這幾年來一共捕捉他四個案子那這四個案子我們都會再做清查但我想請問一下就是說因為我也知道說他好像到現在都還沒有來做說明喔對因為我們有請他本人來做說明他有答應但他還沒有出現那這樣接下來我們怎麼辦呢下一步是什麼不好意思更正一下他上個禮拜已經來做說明那基本上他的說明到目前為止跟台灣中心的這個活動他認為是不相關的因為"},{"start":410.682,"end":432.568,"text":"對 就是一個獨立的活動啦所以在目前為止是沒有查到說這一場是有造假的情況但是我只是說因為它不只只有這個補助案啦我是指說包含它其他的部分我們都有去進一步的核對嘛因為它的確是拿了我們國家納稅人的錢嘛那它在其他地方爆發爭議文化部一共就是補助它四個案子那這四個案子我們都有進行核對跟追查"},{"start":434.329,"end":458.528,"text":"好所以就是說現在已經完成全部的調查了沒有發現造假的事對目前的調查都沒有顯示造假啦OK好那我想就是說因為這件事情其實引發蠻大的一個風波啦那未來我還是希望可以跟文化部來討論就是說類似這樣子的案子我們沒有可能在前面多做一些把關對這個案子在未來的如果他再來申請補助我們一定會做最嚴格的標準這個是沒有問題"},{"start":459.008,"end":486.643,"text":"而且會要求他做一些承諾跟拒絕不然的話是不會再提供這樣的補助好那因為我時間有限我先不講我先問一個這個問題就是說一樣是預算的問題就是說人權管他去年編列了522萬5千元是要提供給我們國內團體的補助款但是呢因為當時呢這個國民黨的提案就是說他必須要跟好民文化協會來追回我們過去的補助款才能夠提出這個解凍"},{"start":488.224,"end":514.038,"text":"才能夠提出解凍所以最近民間團體已經收到了一個這樣子的訊息就是說對於國內的部分完全沒有辦法進行那我想了解一下說文化部現在我們可以怎麼樣來協助這些人權團體讓他們可以得到相關的一些不管是資源補助因為他們其實都是非常重要的因為這一筆基本上也在這一次的解凍案裡面所以我們的說明只是說如果說這個案子因為這個案子300萬對人權管來說是一個蠻龐大的經費"},{"start":517.66,"end":530.758,"text":"那如果這個解凍可以完成我們一樣會可以動機之後會再公告所以我們希望委員支持不用這個條件因為這個條件其實是是沒有辦法不可能達到的啊我們不能夠配合"},{"start":533.741,"end":561.292,"text":"主要是因為他沒有做錯什麼事情同仁沒有做錯事然後他也是一個合法的核銷過程所以沒有辦法達到所以我們希望在做解凍案爭取的時候也可以爭取委員的支持不需要這個條件但是仍然可以解凍的話那當然就會比較順利所以我們現在解凍的報告依這個案子來說我們也是提出了解凍的對我們還是會準備解凍報告雖然過程中有很多的討論但我們仍然提出解凍報告好那我們期待這個解凍報告可以順利解凍希望謝謝"},{"start":563.476,"end":568.251,"text":"好 謝謝張雅琳委員 次長請回座下一位我們請林佩祥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時14分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：次長好。雖然這次的萬博我們沒有辦法以臺灣的名義參加，但其實我們有以TECH WORLD的名義參加，就是這個「玉山數位科技株式會社」，希望透過科技的方式向各國介紹臺灣的文化，其實也是呼應了萬博的一個概念，就是以應援未來奇蹟之島來呼應大會的主題──創造閃耀生命光輝的未來社會，強調臺灣文化在全球重組背景下的應變能力跟自信的未來。所以在8月的時候，我們會開始舉辦一系列跨領域的藝文展演來跟世界介紹臺灣。這樣的模式在我看來，我覺得是滿好的，讓世界可以持續的認識臺灣，尤其是我們臺日關係非常非常友好，我們可以透過這樣的方式更深入兩國的交流。","其實，我自己看到去年在某種程度上延續了這個很輝煌的成績，就是在15天的時間內，我們在文化奧運的臺灣館裡面吸引了7萬人次，透過妮妃雅的演出告訴世界我們是一個非常有包容力的文化，當時很多的小物也都熱銷、熱賣到供不應求等等，其中也有牽亡歌等傳統文化，告訴世界我們是個非常有底蘊的國家，當時編列了750萬元預算，有不錯的成績。我知道原本我們在萬博這個部分也編列了2,000萬元的預算，我想大家也都知道，因為預算被國眾兩黨惡搞之後，我不確定他們知不知道他們刪了這2,000萬的媒體宣傳費，不過我希望次長可以簡單說明一下，我們原本編列這2,000萬元是要去做什麼，讓大家知道我們失去了什麼。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，其實我們編列所謂的媒宣費很重要的就是要突破現在整個媒體的社群市場基本上等於是被演算法控制，演算法是一個相當唯利是圖的演算法，它希望你透過採購的方式才能進行，所以我們現在的作法就會變成如果我們失去了這個宣傳的經費，我們就沒有辦法……"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，次長，我的問題是原本編列這2,000萬元的預算，我們的規劃是什麼？"],["王次長時思：所有的投放跟採購就沒有辦法進行，我們就只能辦理活動，然後能夠進行合作，拜託我們合作的這些廠商或是我們合作的這些夥伴，利用他們的管道來進行宣傳。","另外，我們可以辦記者會，雖然我們沒有進行媒體採購，但是我們還是可以邀請媒體來，希望他們可以主動對我們做報導。但是在社群上或者在演算上的那個部分大概就是沒有辦法防守，那個部分大概完全要靠自主擴散，因為可能沒有辦法進行相關的採購。"],["張委員雅琳：我想這個其實是非常吃力，尤其在現代的社會，所有的東西都非常需要行銷跟廣告宣傳才能夠讓一個很好的活動更擴大。剛剛有聽到次長說我們現在只能夠用非常苦工的方式來宣傳，我覺得這對我們臺灣是一個非常大的打擊，也是一個非常可惜的機會。我想再請教一下，我知道我們的國外旅費被刪了60%，對不對？"],["王次長時思：對。"],["張委員雅琳：這個到底對我們的文化交流會產生什麼樣的影響？"],["王次長時思：第一個，有一些本來計畫要出去的，譬如要以一個團隊出國去談國際合作的、比較長期性的這一類計畫大概會暫時往後延，因為這種很難以減少人、減少天數的方式就可以達到，還是需要一個比較嚴謹的籌備過程，大概有兩個案子是因為這樣而會延期。另外，我們現在出國的人數、天數都降低，也就是說，我們希望他快去快回，譬如你去參加，可能就周邊的考察、資訊、交流大概就沒辦法，就是去了就回來。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。聽起來應該是我們一些交流的實質影響可能會受損，對不對？"],["王次長時思：會下降。"],["張委員雅琳：好，真的希望未來不要再發生這樣的事情。"],["王次長時思：是。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來，我們再來談一下國際交流，我們在3月10號的時候有看到一個報導，是土耳其台灣中心的捐款的爭議報導，他們也有揭露可能他們跟文化部申請的一些補助也有核銷資料造假的問題。當時新聞報導是這樣描述的，臺灣動畫電影嘉年華的電影放映活動都只是擺拍，收據顯示我們借了場地、椅子、設備，但台灣中心的椅子本來就有，看電影只有提供爆米花、果汁。臺灣電影他們聽不懂，字幕也看不懂，當時這位裘先生是說等照片拍完之後，就可以換成「湯姆貓與傑利鼠」電影。","我想知道的是，我也一直有在詢問文化部，明明在2023年就爆發了爭議，也有委員就臺灣中心補助案進行質詢，為什麼文化部在2024年還是補助這個協會？我們有請它來說明當時的爭議嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，主要是因為這個協會是跟外交部共同成立的，所以他如果是合法來申請補助，我們也覺得他的計畫看起來有助交流，我們在評審的過程裡就會同意這個補助。在這個案子，我們的確有去查，目前我們查出來的，包括單據跟放映的情況，不管土耳其的部分，臺灣中心執行的部分看起來沒有不實請款。但這個部分我們仍然在調查中，因為我們本來就有規範這個補助款是專案專用，所以如果調查出來他的確是有問題的，是造假的話，我們基本上是會追回款項。只是到目前為止，我們沒有什麼證據顯示他這一場活動是造假，他的電影的確也有播放，他的場地租借也都有合法的單據，目前的調查情形是這樣。"],["張委員雅琳：我想請問一下次長，我們是不是有清查他從2022年之後，一些相關申請案的核銷單據？"],["王次長時思：對，我們這幾年來共補助他四個案子，這四個案子我們都在做清查。"],["張委員雅琳：我想請問一下，因為我也知道，他好像到現在都還沒有來做說明？"],["王次長時思：對，我們有請他本人來做說明，他有答應，但他還沒有出現。"],["張委員雅琳：這樣接下來我們怎麼辦？下一步是什麼？"],["王次長時思：不好意思，更正一下，他上個禮拜已經來說明，基本上他的說明，到目前為止跟臺灣中心的這個活動，他認為是不相關的。因為這就是一個獨立的活動，所以目前為止沒有查到這一場有造假的情況。"],["張委員雅琳：但是他不只有這個補助案，我是指包含其他的部分，我們都有進一步的核對嗎？因為他的確拿了我們國家納稅人的錢，那他在其他的地方爆發爭議……"],["王次長時思：有，文化部一共就是補助他四個案子，這四個案子我們都有進行核對跟追查……"],["張委員雅琳：對，這四個案子我們都有進行核對？"],["王次長時思：有。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以現在已經全部完成調查了，沒有發現造假的事，是這樣嗎？"],["王次長時思：目前應該是，對，目前的調查都沒有顯示有造假。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，因為這件事其實引發蠻大的風波，未來我還是希望可以跟文化部討論類似這樣的案子，我們有沒有可能在前面多做一些把關？"],["王次長時思：對，這個案子未來如果他再來申請補助，我們一定會照最嚴格的標準來審查，這是沒有問題的，而且會要求他做一些承諾跟具結，不然的話就不會再提供補助。"],["張委員雅琳：好。因為我時間有限，我先問一個一樣是預算的問題。人權館去年編列了522萬5,000元作為國內團體的補助款，因為當時國民黨的提案要求人權館必須向好民文化協會追回過去的補助款，才能夠提出解凍案，所以最近民間團體已經收到了這樣的訊息，就是國內團體的補助完全沒有辦法進行，我想了解一下，現在文化部可以怎麼協助人權團體，讓他們可以得到不管是資源或是補助，因為他們其實都是非常重要的一些……"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，因為這一筆基本上也在這一次的解凍案裡面，所以我們的說明是，因為這個案子300萬，對於人權館來說是一筆蠻龐大的經費，如果可以完成解凍，可以動支之後，我們會再公告。"],["張委員雅琳：可是這個解凍條件看起來是有難度的。"],["王次長時思：所以我們希望委員支持不用這個條件，因為這個條件其實是沒有辦法達到，因為它是……"],["張委員雅琳：不可能達到的啊！因為這個就是思想審查……"],["王次長時思：對，因為它是合法核銷。"],["張委員雅琳：我們不能夠配合在野黨去做這些思想審查的……"],["王次長時思：主要是因為他沒有做錯什麼事情，同仁沒有做錯事……"],["張委員雅琳：的確啊。"],["王次長時思：它也是一個合法的核銷過程，所以沒有辦法達到。我們希望在爭取解凍的時候，也可以爭取委員支持不需要這個條件，但是仍然可以解凍的話，那當然就會比較順利。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在就這個案子來說，我們也是提出了解凍的報告，對不對？"],["王次長時思：對，我們還是會準備解凍報告，雖然過程中有很多的討論，但我們仍然提出解凍報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我們期待這個解凍報告可以順利解凍。謝謝。"],["王次長時思：希望。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，次長請回座。","下一位我們請林沛祥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}},{"id":"160517","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160517","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc00046d671bab70fc57fe8c6252e35fc4a9a3354dc8dbd3a62b801796c5b68923c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:11:45 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請郭部長美國對等關稅雖然是已經暫緩了讓各國有時間來做一個貿易的談判但是在4月16號的時候他們也特別對半導體跟藥品啟動了國家的安全調查"},{"start":42.279,"end":62.178,"text":"那所以說未來會針對這個調查來決定這兩項的這個關稅的這個稅率喔那未來的發展我們經濟部是都要好好的來掌握喔尤其是各這樣的這個因應的這個政策的話也應該要用滾動式的來做一個調整喔那尤其是這個政府有"},{"start":63.579,"end":91.446,"text":"准备要880亿的这个经费来协助这个产业的这个复兴在工业方面的话不管是全支持我们的金融还有让我们提升的这个产业的竞争力开拓我们多元市场还有另外再增加了这个外销的贷款的这个加码跟中小企业这个多元发展的加码跟我们研发转型的这个补助这些都是针对我们国内的产业"},{"start":91.926,"end":110.179,"text":"但是我們在作為我們產業的後盾的當下部長台商他們也是非常重要的而台商在國外的這個製造跟他們的一個生產都有在國外而且我們針對這個我根據我們投審會的統計在2024年他們在大陸的投資將近了2000億的美元"},{"start":120.146,"end":139.744,"text":"所有台商在海外的投資50%總額那在東南亞的部分的話也有642億的美元在整個投資的話海外的投資的話也佔了16%但是並沒有看到我們經濟部對於我們台商要如何協助他們這代表著什麼我們看到這些因為"},{"start":140.865,"end":167.665,"text":"美國對於大陸的這個高關稅採取的也是一種報復性的高關稅將近的百分之兩百四十五趴在這兩百四十五趴裡面我們看到台商他們面對的是什麼就是會血本無歸的下場在這種情形之下我們經濟部應該拿出一個實質的政策來幫助我們台商那有什麼實質政策呢是 謝謝委員的這個指教"},{"start":168.746,"end":194.633,"text":"在這一部分我們現在在處理當然是先處理我們台灣跟美國之間的這個關稅跟這個金融的問題但是在所謂東南亞的台商或者在中國大陸的這個台商來講我們當然也是我們的國人那我們也關切他們的這個未來的這個發展的狀況所以我們都建議如果說"},{"start":195.513,"end":214.207,"text":"他不是看那個local當地的這個市場的時候那麼他去那個地方投資到底他重視的是那個當地的資源還是當地的市場我們會幫助他如果他需要移轉如果說他生產的東西都是銷售到美國的"},{"start":215.067,"end":238.313,"text":"這就是重點不用等到美國關稅對我們做的什麼決定就是對台商的話有可能他要回流到台灣來我們對於水電土地這方面我們給予協助如果他要依準到其他國家去投資的話我們也要盡力的全力來協助好不好我們現在就是幫助他們第一個如果他們願意回來台灣的我們當然要幫他就像您剛剛說的土地水"},{"start":240.693,"end":256.56,"text":"對不對如果他到其他的國家我們會建議他因為我們剛剛在我在去年的12月在這個歐洲在捷克我成立一個這個貿易服務中心台灣貿易服務中心我在前天在日本"},{"start":256.84,"end":268.704,"text":"也成立了台灣貿易服務中心我很快的在美國也要成立台灣貿易服務中心所以對台商也要關心對 就是讓台商在不在台灣的這些台商能夠移動在國際間的移動讓透過我們這個經濟部的服務可以在國際中順利的移動"},{"start":275.706,"end":293.072,"text":"那接下來本席要請教部長就是因為去年四月的時候美國跟日本菲律賓有共同宣布了旅送的經濟走廊在這個時候部長也特別提到這個境外關內的能夠順著這個美國跟日本去投資的時候我們台灣也可以加入這個這一項的"},{"start":298.634,"end":313.342,"text":"所以我們有沒有評估看看如果說菲律賓你看看他的外交政策一下親中一下親美那萬一有這種情況發生的話我們有沒有評估說萬一有大陸的這個干擾到"},{"start":314.246,"end":330.489,"text":"沒有辦法去投資的時候我們該怎麼辦我們當然有很多的這個因應的方法那當然這是我們評估的選項之一選項之一但在風險上面我們會考慮很多那在這個所謂的"},{"start":331.03,"end":352.024,"text":"旅送經濟走廊確定會繼續在執行的過程裡面我們會來參加透過美日之間大家的交流我們可以取得一個更安全的投資環境這樣的時候我們才會引導其他在東南亞的台商進入到"},{"start":353.365,"end":375.875,"text":"那還有就是說因為這項政策這個計畫我們希望要爭取能夠加入這個計畫但這項計畫是在當時是在拜登的時候提出來的那現在換成川普了川普的話他在之前他上任的時候他就有針對TPP這個跨太平洋這個夥伴他就退出了那這項"},{"start":378.238,"end":385.96,"text":"據部長跟我們經濟部的了解他有沒有繼續會執行這個計畫以我們現在了解的這個狀況他對這個呂宋經濟走廊這個計畫並沒有反對那如果說他就算我們沒有辦法爭取到進入這個呂宋經濟走廊的話"},{"start":402.813,"end":421.444,"text":"因為菲律賓也是歡迎國外來投資嘛不管是這個太陽能或者風電或者地的都有都歡迎我們來投資所以如果說我們去投資的話部長也有提到了我們可能就投資這個太陽能的部分但是在於長期來講的話我們都做用電纜線那電纜線的技術上還沒有去突破的話還有它的困難的話我們可能在短期方面我們就用電磁船來做一個運輸嘛"},{"start":432.29,"end":457.745,"text":"那電子船的運輸初步本來評估出來的費用是每一度要5.5元後來部長有澄清大概是1.25元那就算是1.25元加上我們發電成本的話大概要4、5塊錢可是部長你要知道這個針對如果說有去投資的這個產業它本身就是要有利潤這個成本就要4、5塊加上它的利潤可能就要8、9塊了那8、9塊的話台電去購買這個"},{"start":462.308,"end":476.054,"text":"電的話那就是買越多虧越大那這個不在我們考慮的命題裡面我曾經多次在講我們未來所有買電的價格不會超過4塊錢那是他家的事"},{"start":483.557,"end":501.602,"text":"那所以是台電要吸收不是 我們不是叫台電去做成本要四五塊 沒有說他家的事如果說是產業去投資的話投資就要有利潤他不是做善事 他有利潤所以他不會賣給我那賣給誰那你說賣給當地的產業也可以運送回來台灣是這樣子嗎當然運送回來台灣 誰買"},{"start":509.977,"end":513.562,"text":"沒有人買 也是產業買 台電不會買部長在這邊保證台電不會買我跟委員在這裡報告我們台電台電不會去做這種事情讓自己成本墊高的事情"},{"start":523.712,"end":531.599,"text":"部長,那你不曉得台電購電的成本在哪裡嗎?風電買多少?太陽能買多少?都是超過4塊喔我已經講過很多次了,我不會買超過4塊錢麻煩你記住這個,4塊錢好不好?超過4塊錢我不會買風電跟太陽能買多少錢?台電有人嗎?"},{"start":545.025,"end":554.293,"text":"這個都有數據耶報告委員我是說今後過去不是我在當經濟部長好不好我當經濟部長以後我這個電廠的話再生能源發電的話回來了電台電不會買當然啦 超過4塊就不會買那一定會超過4塊了嘛那是你說的啊好 那現在我們這邊都有記錄啦超過4塊台電就不能買"},{"start":572.226,"end":577.932,"text":"是這樣子嗎是那所以說我後來講回來那所有去投資的產業他們要不要利潤"},{"start":580.629,"end":602.908,"text":"那你要問去投資的產業嘛所以部長怎麼會問我呢那所以說你的意思說當下他們其他的產業賣給產業的話也會超過這個價格他們自己去買報告委員我講過了我買是4塊錢所以他的投資的人他會去算嘛他算如果他的成本高於4塊錢他就不用去投資了啊"},{"start":604.47,"end":618.119,"text":"所以才這邊提醒部長我們計算下來的成本照你講的運輸成本一塊錢在當地在菲律賓發電的話成本三塊錢好了就要四塊錢超過四塊你就不要買那未來投資這麼大超過四塊你不買這電未來就是給產業產業會買這麼高的電嗎"},{"start":623.903,"end":639.532,"text":"好 那這是提醒部長 如果說產業沒有去投資的話呢沒有產業要去投資的話呢因為產業不可能做善事嘛 它要利潤產業給你報告的人絕對不是產業的人啦好不好 所以它才會估出這個錯誤的價格4塊錢是部長你估的啊"},{"start":647.674,"end":651.557,"text":"那部長在這邊承諾 超過4塊你不會買我們也相信產業能夠照部長的境外觀內能夠去菲律賓順利投資這個再生能源發電 好不好是 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時11分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，美國對於對等關稅雖然已經暫緩了，讓各國有時間來做貿易談判，但是在4月16號的時候，他們特別對於半導體跟藥品啟動了國家的安全調查，所以未來也會針對調查來決定這兩項的關稅稅率。對於未來的發展，經濟部都要好好的掌握，尤其是各項因應政策也應該要滾動式的來做調整。","政府準備了880億的經費來協助產業的復興，在工業方面，不管是支持我們的金融還有提升產業競爭力、開拓多元市場，另外增加了外銷貸款跟中小企業多元發展的加碼以及研發轉型的補助，這些都是針對我們國內的產業。但是作為我們產業後盾的當下，部長，臺商也是非常重要的，而臺商在國外的製造跟生產都在國外，而且根據投審會的統計，2024年他們在大陸投資將近兩千億美元，占所有臺商在海外投資總額的百分之五十；在東南亞也有642億美元，也占整個海外投資的百分之十六。但我們並沒有看到經濟部對於臺商要如何協助，這代表著什麼？我們看到美國對於大陸的高關稅採取的是一種報復性的高關稅，將近245%，在這245%裡面，我們看到臺商他們面對的是什麼？就是血本無歸的下場，在這種情形之下，我們經濟部應該拿出一個實質的政策來幫助臺商，那你們有什麼實質政策呢？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教，在這一部分，我們現在當然是先處理臺灣跟美國之間的關稅跟金融問題，但是針對東南亞的臺商，或者在中國大陸的臺商來講，他們當然也是我們的國人，我們也關切他們未來的發展狀況，所以我們建議，如果他們不是看當地的市場，他們去那個地方投資到底重視的是當地的資源還是當地的市場，我們會幫助他們，如果他們需要移轉，假設他們生產的東西都是銷售到美國的，那我們就會……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，這就是重點，不用等到美國關稅對我們做了什麼決定，對於臺商，有可能他們要回流到臺灣來，我們在水電、土地這方面給予協助；如果他們要移轉到其國家去投資的話，我們也要盡全力來協助，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在就是要幫助他們，第一個，如果他們願意回來臺灣，我們當然要幫他們，就像您剛才說的……"],["呂委員玉玲：這幾個方面，我們就全力來協助。"],["郭部長智輝：像是土地、水電。如果他們要到其他國家，我們會建議他們，因為我去年12月在歐洲捷克成立了一個臺灣貿易服務中心，我前天在日本也成立了臺灣貿易服務中心，很快的，我在美國也要成立臺灣貿易服務中心……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以對臺商也要關心……"],["郭部長智輝：對，就是讓不在臺灣的這些臺商在國際間的移動能夠透過我們經濟部的服務，可以在國際中順利的移動。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，接下來本席要請教部長，因為去年4月美國跟日本、菲律賓共同宣布了呂宋經濟走廊，在這個時候，部長也特別提到境外關內的政策，能夠順著美國跟日本去投資時，我們臺灣也可以加入這一項活動，所以你們有沒有評估看看，如果說菲律賓，你看看他們的外交政策，一下親中、一下親美，萬一有這種情況發生的話，你們有沒有評估，萬一受大陸的干擾導致沒有辦法去投資，那該怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有很多的因應方法，這只是我們評估的選項之一，我們在風險上面會考慮很多，在呂宋經濟走廊確定會繼續執行的過程中，我們會來參加，透過美、日之間的交流，我們可以取得一個更安全的投資環境，這樣我們才會引導其他在東南亞的臺商進入到這個……"],["呂委員玉玲：OK，還有因為這項政策、這個計畫，我們希望爭取加入這個計畫，但這項計畫當時是在拜登的時候提出來的，現在換成川普了，川普在上一任的時候就退出了TPP跨太平洋夥伴，據部長跟經濟部的了解，他會不會繼續執行這個計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，以我們現在了解的狀況，他對於呂宋經濟走廊這個計畫並沒有反對。"],["呂委員玉玲：他沒有反對。好，就算我們沒有辦法爭取到進入呂宋經濟走廊的話……因為菲律賓也是歡迎國外的投資，不管是太陽能或者風電還是地熱都歡迎我們去投資，部長也有提到，如果我們去投資的話，我們可能就是投資太陽能，但是長期來講的話，我們都是用電纜線，電纜線在技術上還沒有突破，還有它的困難，我們可能在短期上就用電池船來運輸，初步評估電池船運輸的費用是每一度要5.5元，後來部長有澄清了，大概是1.25元，就算是1.25元，加上我們的發電成本大概要4、5塊錢。可是部長你要知道，如果是針對有去投資的產業，他們本身就要有利潤啊，成本就4、5塊，加上利潤可能就要8、9塊了，如果是8、9塊，台電去購買這個電的話，那就是買越多虧越大，那這個的話……"],["郭部長智輝：不可能，這個不在我們考慮的命題裡面，我曾經多次講，我們未來……"],["呂委員玉玲：成本就擺那邊啊，就是4、5塊。"],["郭部長智輝：我們未來買電的價格不會超過4塊錢。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是成本就4、5塊了。"],["郭部長智輝：那是他家的事。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以是台電要吸收？"],["郭部長智輝：不是。我們不是叫台電去做。"],["呂委員玉玲：成本要4、5塊，沒有說他家的事，如果說是產業去投資的話，投資就要有利潤，他不是做善事，要有利潤耶！"],["郭部長智輝：所以他不會賣給我啊。"],["呂委員玉玲：那要賣給誰？那你說，賣給當地的產業，也可以運送回來臺灣，是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["呂委員玉玲：那運送回來臺灣，誰買？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有人買。"],["呂委員玉玲：也是產業買，台電不會買，部長在這邊保證台電不會買。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員在這裡報告，我們台電不會去做這種事情，讓自己成本墊高的事情。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，那你不曉得台電購電的成本在哪裡嗎？風電買多少？太陽能買多少？超過4塊了喔！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我已經講過很多次了，我不會買超過4塊錢嘛，麻煩你記住這個，4塊錢，好不好？超過4塊錢的，不會買。"],["呂委員玉玲：那風電呢？風電跟太陽能買多少錢？台電有人嗎？這個都有數據耶！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是說今後。"],["呂委員玉玲：今後？"],["郭部長智輝：過去不是我在當經濟部長，好不好？我當經濟部長以後……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以如果我們在菲律賓做風力發電電場的話，再生能源發電的話，回來的電，台電不會買？"],["郭部長智輝：當然。超過4塊就不會買。"],["呂委員玉玲：那一定會超過4塊的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：那是你說的啊。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，現在我們這邊都有紀錄了，超過4塊，台電就不能買，是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以說，話再講回來，所有去投資的產業，他們要不要利潤？"],["郭部長智輝：那你要問去投資的產業嘛，怎麼會問我呢？"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長，你的意思是說，當下其他的產業賣給產業的話，也會超過這個價錢，他們自己去買？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我講過了，我買是4塊錢，所以投資的人會去算嘛，他算如果成本高於4塊錢，他就不用去投資了啊。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我才在這邊提醒部長，我們計算下來的成本，照你講的，運輸成本1塊錢，在菲律賓當地發電的話，成本3塊錢好了，就要4塊錢，超過4塊你就不要買，那未來投資這麼大，超過4塊，你不買，這電未來就是給產業，產業會買這麼高的電嗎？好，這是提醒部長，如果說產業沒有去投資的話呢？沒有產業要去投資的話呢？因為產業不可能做善事嘛，他要利潤，那未來如何？我們是擔心產業不要去投資啊。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，給你報告的人絕對不是產業的人啦。好不好？所以他才會估出這個錯誤的價格啦。"],["呂委員玉玲：4塊錢是部長你估的啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我說的是我買的，不是我去種電的價格。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，部長在這邊承諾，超過4塊，你不會買。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，我們也相信產業能夠照部長提出的「境外關內」構想，去菲律賓順利投資再生能源發電，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。謝謝。"],["主席：好。謝謝呂玉玲委員。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160516","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160516","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc038cd83ab0415efd8a01776dcf2b4a8ff9a3354dc8dbd3a629930f9bb5cf0ddfa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:03:14 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謝謝主席我請部長 政部長好麻煩部長全序部的施部長好 施部長請內政部民政司的代表還有中選會中選會處長好 民政司代表大家早安今天主席排定了這個主題我認為應當好好來討論行政中立誰行政不中立了呢"},{"start":38.513,"end":67.349,"text":"我要說以這段時間發生的很多事情恐怕是國民黨才是真正的行政不中立我們等一下再來論述而我更要破題包庇違法不查才是徹底的司法不公只要有違法事證不論是誰該辦就辦該查就查下一頁今天這個委員會高規格四院都邀請來列席報告獨缺立法院"},{"start":68.703,"end":68.865,"text":"市部長"},{"start":70.273,"end":97.606,"text":"行政中立法是你們考試院主管對行政中立法有排除司法院的公務人員嗎沒有只要是全國公務人員是所以行政中立法適用的是各級機關五院的公務人員他的排除有其他的排除但是一般來講立法院的公務人員也是要適用行政中立法也是要適用公務人員的行為法任用法乃至於懲戒法嗎對"},{"start":98.956,"end":126.693,"text":"那如果要講行政不中立在立法院來講應當是要探討議事中不中立那今天召委並沒有邀請立法院的人員來列席我覺得這某種程度就沒有那麼中立了就沒有那麼中立了那如果以今天主題相關的選舉罷免的程序當中的這件事情那我更認為立法院的代表應當要來"},{"start":128.325,"end":132.091,"text":"因為呢我們現在在面對的選舉罷免法的選罷法就這一年來2024跟2025年我們進行了修法"},{"start":138.342,"end":165.133,"text":"大家知道嗎選罷法在2024年的7月4號第一會期為了修選罷法的連署是不是要加嚴加密的那個門檻 招委是高精素媒內政委員會的招委可以把立法院的議事人員押到他的辦公室也就是議事人員請去他的辦公室喝茶然後議事人員就配合招委然後不進來主持會議把所有民進黨的委員要開會認真的委員曬在"},{"start":169.369,"end":181.342,"text":"內政委員會的會場 然後不開會這就是議事不中立嘛第二個呢 同樣選罷法的審查在2024年的12月16號更經典了我們的議事人員"},{"start":182.711,"end":211.087,"text":"不曉得是被脅迫還是出於自願喔在配合國民黨的召委徐欣盈封鎖了內政委員會的辦公室把民進黨的委員鎖在門外國民黨的委員一分鐘一分鐘只花一分鐘把選罷法送出委員會這樣子的議事人員也非常嚴重的涉及議事不中立當然我如果為他們想他們可能也身在江湖人不由己啊"},{"start":212.216,"end":231.452,"text":"很為難但是基本的捍衛議事中立是不論誰擔任立法院院長不論誰是國會多數立法院的公務人員都應當克尊憲法克尊法令嘛好再講選罷法立法院在去年的12月20號一天通過了三個惡法又用舉手表決了"},{"start":232.769,"end":261.348,"text":"選罷法也那一天三大惡法通過了結果呢居然三大惡法通過立法院的議事人員配合中國國民黨把選罷法押在立法院一直押押押把選罷法當人質肉票欸已經三讀通過的法案押了35天到今年的1月24號才把選罷法移送對不起移送我說錯了就是送提請行政院跟總統來公告"},{"start":263.21,"end":283.186,"text":"如果以跟今天的主題相關的選罷法選舉罷免進行的過程的這個謀法選罷法立法院完全沒有意識中立所以今天主席沒有邀請立法院的人員來我認為缺了一角而且是非常嚴重的缺了那一角"},{"start":284.437,"end":307.169,"text":"所以說所有的公務人員都要適用行政中立法我們要依法行政行政的根本在依據那個法律對不對第二個要執法公正沒有辦法不應當辦藍不辦綠藍綠都要辦秉公處理不選擇性辦案這叫做執法公正我支持"},{"start":308.149,"end":333.498,"text":"第三個所有的公務人員心中都有一把尺叫做政治中立這是行政中立法的第一條所規範的嘛下一頁我要請大家看看喔因為我們是立法院當然沒有辦法監督地方政府但是如果要探討這段時間的行政中不中立我們必須來看看各個地方政府到底在面對罷免這件事情上有沒有雙標兩套標準"},{"start":335.709,"end":356.585,"text":"從台北市長蔣萬安、桃園市長張善政、花蓮縣長的徐貞蔚花蓮的部分是給人家查水表只要有連署罷免副委員的縣府的戶政員就登門拜訪查水表而這個事情已經司法偵辦中了我就尊重,我就不再談了"},{"start":357.679,"end":366.97,"text":"桃園市長的張善政公然的說市政府會全力協助反制藍圍被罷免的行動然後他還刁難罷團場地租借"},{"start":371.444,"end":384.055,"text":"蔣萬安更經典啊也是一樣啊公然的花市府的公帑舉辦活動然後只要藍營的委員市政府的活動變成藍營的委員的造市場然後蔣萬安一樣刁難罷團的場地租借然後給罷免的店家查水表等等"},{"start":394.191,"end":415.214,"text":"這些濫用市府資源打壓霸團的這才是嚴重的行政不中立我是台北市的立委我們來看台北市下一頁跨局處查水表蔣市府追殺公民霸團前所未見我要就教於市部長你看看這是我整理出來這是台北市議員簡舒培整理的"},{"start":416.824,"end":444.237,"text":"蔣市府鎖定了六個有參與罷免的公民團體然後就這六個非常精準地鎖定請勞動局、消防局、健管處、督發局、商業處、環保局、衛生局一個一個去查水表有的來查你的衛生有沒有合格有的來查你的環保有沒有合格有的來查你的營業登記有的來查你的勞動有沒有違規"},{"start":446.018,"end":456.998,"text":"非常密集的就在這段時間動用了七個局處來鎖定六個霸團這有沒有過當的濫用了行政資源啊部長你看看"},{"start":458.961,"end":487.801,"text":"國務委員報告當然這是個案我對個案狀況並不了解不過從行政中立法整體上的概念來講國務委員應該要遵守就是說要完全遵守行政中立法如果他不是職權上的行為這個要特別特別一個小心那我想我們這個主管機關我們會做這樣一個如果說今天蔣萬安市長剛好針對譬如說大同區或是我的北投區剛好這段時間啟動這一個街區的商區的所有的"},{"start":489.062,"end":502.979,"text":"項目的檢查那沒有問題可是他非常奇怪的針對六個商家六個霸團然後七個局處去查這顯然那把尺大家都很清楚了下一頁"},{"start":503.973,"end":530.074,"text":"同樣是蔣市府喔協助某立委可以他沒有大手筆啦他是一口氣喔只花25萬不管是押金或者是場地使用費把松山信義722個居民活動中心全部讓一個立委這段時間3月到6月全包了其他的公民要使用活動你一定要用沒辦法我們的排舞媽媽要救沒辦法"},{"start":533.297,"end":545.244,"text":"我們的小朋友的下課的勞動教室 不會有九場地722個場地 然後讓一個立委一次全包這很奇怪耶 來內政部講一講可以這樣嗎 內政部你們有看過 可以這樣單一個"},{"start":556.465,"end":572.19,"text":"立委有這麼大嗎 然後市長可以護航他全部的台北市的場地 內區的場地這段時間全部block起來only for one person如果就你們民政督導機關 你同意這種事情嗎報告委員 這個場地使用逐屆是屬於台北市政府的說管"},{"start":574.181,"end":596.571,"text":"那你同意你認為這樣有沒有過當了在選舉辦免程序裡面關於選務人員的部分我們可以來做宣導對那這個部分一定是要嚴守行政中立好請嚴守行政中立這有沒有違反行政中立大家都有一把尺下一頁這個我就不再多說了居然花台北市民的錢舉辦的就業博覽會當天呢就成了五個國民黨立委的造勢場"},{"start":602.901,"end":625.932,"text":"他沒有邀請民進黨立委沒有邀請烏斯堯沒有關係I don't care我沒有需要再就業可是連所有的市議員都沒有受邀這一場活動就only for 台北市的五個立法委員某個政黨這實在如果這不是行政不中立那什麼叫做行政不中立呢"},{"start":626.872,"end":643.5,"text":"下一頁下一頁好我最後的時間我講這個我已經多次說了民主不容造假不管是作票不管是會選不管是罷免的偽造聯署都是造假的行為都是違法該查就查下一頁下一頁下一頁我們來講這一頁"},{"start":649.505,"end":669.821,"text":"讓證據說話司法重證據目前61個一階提案的案量是61案進入二階有59人另外那兩個之所以沒成案是因為嘉義的陳冠廷跟王美惠的霸團承認他們死亡連署造假連署他們自知理虧他們就不再舉辦了"},{"start":671.141,"end":697.986,"text":"好 平均的不合格率罷綠的是三成罷藍的是4.55 相差6.6倍而死亡連署數呢是1923比上12相差160倍如果以司法的人員辦案來講一定要優先從事證明確的去下手偵辦對不對而且下一頁 中選會已經說囉下一頁"},{"start":700.786,"end":706.915,"text":"全部的移送案件依職務告發有41件不分藍綠都送半碼所以部長我已經秀出多次"},{"start":712.287,"end":733.995,"text":"如果以霸藍的立委所有霸藍的立委裡頭最高的死亡連署是台中的廖偉祥委員那一區有三個死亡連署如果以霸綠的死亡連署是武利華委員有189位還是182位的死亡連署差距這麼大如果是檢察官"},{"start":735.154,"end":741.159,"text":"罪證確鑿 事證明確 它可以不辦嗎違法事證明確不辦不就才是司法不公嗎 是不是好 我最後一頁啦因為很多頁沒有辦法講我就以因為很多國民黨的委員都在說不要大小眼 不要辦藍不辦綠一直在拿出罷免韓國瑜前市長的這個"},{"start":762.078,"end":776.585,"text":"連署數我這裡是跟中選會一再確認正確的數字因為罷免韓國瑜市長他是整個高雄市他的基數是高達40萬送件的數是高達40萬7547人我如果相對於吳思瑤的罷免是2696人一接的時候罷免韓國瑜前市長的錯誤率是百分之"},{"start":787.754,"end":789.979,"text":"對不起 他這裡對 錯誤率是7.18%罷免無私藥是34.5%就以 我來這裡是闢謠的"},{"start":797.657,"end":809.085,"text":"大家說罷免韓國瑜有幾千個死亡連署你們怎麼沒有偵辦事實會說話罷免韓國瑜的死亡連署的占比是0.00009%0.00009%這是罷免韓國瑜高雄市長的時候的"},{"start":822.134,"end":847.514,"text":"死亡連署的佔比然後在一階的時候韓國瑜的死亡連署應當是95位二階的時候全高雄市罷免韓國瑜的死亡連署是35位所以我要把事實說清楚讓證據說話而事實上當初罷韓的也沒有不增辦嘛對不對只要我違法事證明確也是該辦也有辦嘛是不是部長"},{"start":848.616,"end":876.545,"text":"這個是檢察官有啟動那個偵查是 強加調查所以釐清財務部起訴處分所以當初罷免韓國瑜也有啟動偵辦只是後來事證不足而很有可能是我說的他的比例而且他實際去查的死亡連署沒有涉及造假的部分所以我們要把事實說清楚講明白我也非常希望行政不中立不能缺一角在立法院的意識中立是同等重要的"},{"start":877.106,"end":879.707,"text":"好 謝謝幾位 大家一起加油 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時3分）謝謝主席，我請鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：銓敘部的施部長。"],["主席：施部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：請內政部民政司的代表還有中選會。"],["主席：中選會處長、民政司代表。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安。今天主席排定了這個主題，我認為應當好好討論行政中立，誰行政不中立了呢？我要說，以這段時間發生的很多事情，恐怕國民黨才是真正的行政不中立，我們等一下再來論述。我更要破題，包庇違法不查，才是澈底的司法不公，只要有違法事證，不論是誰，該辦就辦，該查就查。","今天這個委員會高規格，四院都邀請來列席報告，獨缺立法院。施部長，行政中立法是你們考試院主管？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：行政中立法有排除司法院的公務人員嗎？"],["施部長能傑：沒有，只要是全國公務人員都……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以行政中立法適用的是各級機關、五院的公務人員，它的排除有其他的排除。但是一般來講，立法院的公務人員也是要適用行政中立法，也是要適用公務人員的行為法、任用法，乃至於懲戒法。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果要講行政不中立，在立法院來講，應當是要探討議事中不中立。今天召委並沒有邀請立法院的人員來列席，我覺得這某種程度就沒有那麼中立了。如果以今天主題相關的選舉罷免程序當中這件事情，那我更認為立法院的代表應當要來，因為我們現在面對的選罷法就這一年來，2024跟2025年我們進行了修法，大家知道嗎？選罷法在2024年7月4號，即第1會期，為了修選罷法的連署是不是要加嚴、加密的那個門檻，召委是高金素梅，內政委員會的召委可以把立法院的議事人員押到他的辦公室，也就是請議事人員去他的辦公室喝茶，然後議事人員就配合召委，不進來主持會議，把所有民進黨的委員、要認真開會的委員曬在內政委員會的會場，然後不開會，這就是議事不中立嘛！","第二個，同樣是選罷法的審查，在2024年12月16號就更經典了，我們的議事人員不曉得是被脅迫還是出於自願，配合國民黨的召委徐欣瑩，封鎖了內政委員會的辦公室，把民進黨的委員鎖在門外，國民黨的委員1分鐘、1分鐘，只花1分鐘把選罷法送出委員會，這樣子的議事人員也非常嚴重涉及議事不中立。當然，我如果為他們想，他們可能也是人在江湖身不由己、很為難，但是基本的捍衛議事中立，不論誰擔任立法院院長、不論誰是國會多數，立法院的公務人員都應當恪遵憲法、恪遵法令。","再講選罷法，立法院在去年12月20號一天通過了3個惡法，又用舉手表決了，選罷法也在那一天通過，三大惡法通過了，結果三大惡法通過後，立法院的議事人員居然配合中國國民黨把選罷法壓在立法院，一直壓、壓、壓，把選罷法當人質、肉票，已經三讀通過的法案壓了35天，到今年1月24號才把選罷法送出，提請行政院跟總統公告。如果以跟今天主題相關的選罷法、選舉罷免進行過程的這個母法──選罷法來看，立法院完全沒有議事中立！所以今天主席沒有邀請立法院的人員來，我認為缺了一角，而且是非常嚴重的缺了那一角。所有的公務人員都要適用行政中立法，我們要依法行政，行政的根本在依據那個法律，對不對？第二個，要執法公正，沒有辦法、不應當辦藍不辦綠，藍、綠都要辦，秉公處理，不選擇性辦案，這叫做執法公正，我支持。第三個，所有的公務人員心中都有一把尺叫做政治中立，這是行政中立法第一條所規範的。","再來，我要請大家看看，因為我們是立法院，當然沒有辦法監督地方政府，但是如果要探討這段時間的行政中不中立，我們必須來看看，各個地方政府面對罷免這件事情到底有沒有雙標、兩套標準。從臺北市長蔣萬安、桃園市長張善政、花蓮縣長的徐榛蔚來看，花蓮的部分是給人家查水表，只要有連署罷免傅委員的，縣府的戶政人員就登門拜訪查水表，這個事情司法已經偵辦中了，我就尊重，我就不再談了。桃園市長張善政公然說，市政府會全力協助，反制藍委被罷免的行動，然後他還刁難罷團場地租借。","蔣萬安更經典，也是一樣，公然花市府的公帑舉辦活動，只邀藍營的委員，市政府的活動變成藍營委員的造勢場，蔣萬安一樣刁難罷團的場地租借，然後給罷免的店家查水表等等，這些濫用市府資源、打壓罷團的作為，這才是嚴重的行政不中立。我是臺北市的立委，我們來看臺北市，跨局處查水表，蔣市府追殺公民罷團，前所未見！我要就教施部長，你看看這是我整理出來，這是臺北市議員簡舒培整理的，蔣市府鎖定了6個有參與罷免的公民團體，然後就這6個非常精準的鎖定，請勞動局、消防局、建管處、都發局、商業處、環保局、衛生局一個一個去查水表，有的來查衛生有沒有合格、有的來查環保有沒有合格、有的來查營業登記、有的來查勞動有沒有違規，非常密集的，就在這段時間動用了7個局處來鎖定6個罷團，這有沒有過當的濫用行政資源？部長你看呢？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，當然這是一個個案，我對個案狀況並不了解，不過從行政中立法整體上的概念來講，公務人員應該要完全遵守行政中立，如果他不是職權上的行為，這個要特別特別小心，我想我們是主管機關，我們會做這樣的呼籲。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果說今天蔣萬安市長針對譬如說大同區或是我的北投區，剛好這段時間啟動這一個街區的商區所有項目的檢查，那沒有問題，可是他非常奇怪的針對6個商家、6個罷團，然後7個局處去查，這顯然那把尺大家都很清楚。同樣是蔣市府，協助某立委一口氣只花25萬，不管是押金或者是場地使用費，把松山、信義722個區民活動中心讓一個立委在3月到6月這段時間全包了，其他的公民要使用活動中心、里長要用，沒辦法！我們的排舞媽媽要借，沒辦法！我們小朋友下課的勞動教室沒辦法借場地，722個場地讓一個立委一次全包，這很奇怪欸！來，內政部講一講，可以這樣嗎？內政部，你們有看過可以這樣單一個……立委有這麼大嗎？然後市長可以護航他，臺北市那一區的全部場地這段時間全部block起來，only for one person！如果就你們民政督導機關，你同意這種事情嗎？"],["簡專門委員鈺珒：報告委員，場地使用租借是屬於臺北市政府所管。"],["吳委員思瑤：我知道，那你同意？你認為這樣有沒有過當？"],["簡專門委員鈺珒：在選舉罷免程序裡面，關於選務人員的部分我們可以宣導，這個部分一定要嚴守行政中立。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，請嚴守行政中立！這有沒有違反行政中立？大家都有一把尺。","再來這個我就不再多說了，居然花臺北市民的錢舉辦的就業博覽會，當天就成了5個國民黨立委的造勢場，他沒有邀請民進黨立委，沒有邀請吳思瑤沒有關係，I don't care！我沒有需要再就業，可是連所有的市議員都沒有受邀，這一場活動就only for臺北市的5個立法委員、某個政黨，如果這不是行政不中立，那什麼叫做行政不中立呢？","我最後的時間講這個，我已經多次說了，民主不容造假，不管是作票、不管是賄選、不管是罷免的偽造連署，都是造假的行為，都是違法，該查就查！","我們來講這個，讓證據說話，司法重證據。目前一階提案的案量是61案，進入二階的有59人，另外那兩個之所以沒成案，是因為嘉義的陳冠廷跟王美惠的罷團承認他們死亡連署、造假連署，他們自知理虧，他們就不再舉辦了！平均的不合格率，罷綠的是三成，罷藍的是4.55，相差6.6倍，而死亡連數是1923比上12，相差160倍，如果以司法人員辦案來講，一定要優先從事證明確的去下手偵辦，對不對？而且中選會已經說了，全部的移送案件依職務告發有41件，不分藍、綠都送辦。","部長，我已經秀出多次，如果以所有罷藍的立委來看，最高的死亡連署是臺中的廖偉翔委員那一區，有3個死亡連署，如果罷綠的死亡連署是伍麗華委員，有182位的死亡連署，差距這麼大，如果是檢察官，罪證確鑿、事證明確，他可以不辦嗎？違法事證明確，不辦不就是司法不公嗎？是不是？","最後了，因為資料很多沒有辦法講，很多國民黨委員都在說不要大小眼、不要辦藍不辦綠，一直在拿出罷免韓國瑜前市長的連署數，我這裡跟中選會一再確認正確的數字，因為罷免韓國瑜前市長是整個高雄市，它的基數高達40萬，送件數高達40萬7,547人，如果相對於吳思瑤一階時候的罷免是2,696人，罷免韓國瑜前市長的錯誤率是7.18%，罷免吳思瑤是34.5%，我來這裡是闢謠的，大家說罷免韓國瑜有幾千個死亡連署，你們怎麼沒有偵辦？事實會說話，罷免韓國瑜的死亡連署占比是0.00009%，這是罷免韓國瑜高雄市長時候的死亡連署占比，然後在一階的時候韓國瑜的死亡連署應當是95位，二階的時候，全高雄市罷免韓國瑜的死亡連署是35位，所以我要把事實說清楚，讓證據說話。而事實上，當初罷韓的也沒有不偵辦嘛，對不對？只要違法事證明確也是該辦，也有辦嘛，是不是？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個檢察官有啟動偵查。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有詳加調查，所以釐清採不起訴處分。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以當初罷免韓國瑜也有啟動偵辦，只是後來事證不足，很有可能是我說的它的比例，而且實際去查死亡連署沒有涉及造假的部分。所以我們要把事實說清楚、講明白，我也非常希望行政中立不能缺一角，在立法院的議事中立是同等重要的！謝謝幾位，大家一起加油，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160515","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160515","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc07f0f706cbabafc96c0f390e692fb4f249a3354dc8dbd3a6255ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:06:43 - 11:17:43","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T11:06:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T11:17:43+08:00","duration":660,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.2878437500000004,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.76034375,"end":4.232843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.228468750000001,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.03846875,"end":6.122843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.24096875,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.78909375,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.75721875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.43471875,"end":43.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.88096875,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.58534375,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.00721875,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.49596875,"end":78.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.87096875,"end":52.799093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.67659375,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.25909375,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.12721875000001,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.41784375,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.16034375000001,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.12159375,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.32284375,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.78534375,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.97409375,"end":153.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.33659375000002,"end":151.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.03221875,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.06596875,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.09971875000002,"end":154.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.18409375000002,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.20096875000002,"end":154.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.25159375,"end":154.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.30221875,"end":157.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.60596875000002,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.54221875000002,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.50409375,"end":158.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.57159375,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.58846875,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.72346875000002,"end":160.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.92596875,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.41034375,"end":165.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.61284375000002,"end":165.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.92909375000002,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.47284375,"end":183.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.31034375000002,"end":183.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.71534375000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.83346875,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.67721875,"end":185.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.25096875,"end":190.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.34721875000002,"end":194.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.27909375000002,"end":195.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.10159375,"end":202.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.15221875,"end":196.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.18596875,"end":196.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.27034375000002,"end":196.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.38846875000002,"end":196.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.05409375000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.96534375000002,"end":216.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.61034375000003,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.80721875,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.02659375000002,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.92846875,"end":231.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.78846875000002,"end":229.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.50534375,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.79096875000002,"end":250.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.96221875,"end":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我們的民眾205億"},{"start":136.095,"end":161.684,"text":"那汰換了1227萬台的節能家電那我想請問組長省下了每年省下了多少的一個用電數是吧委員我們目前估算大概有10到11億左右11萬度電11億度一度那大概多少錢你一度的話多少錢如果用平均電價是2.5塊來算應該就是20幾億"},{"start":166.006,"end":193.861,"text":"20幾億那你認為就是說我們每年就是說提供了這個20這個政策上現在跟你討論政策上就是說你用10年去做一個比較那就是說太舊這個電器那這10年這個標準是什麼跟我們有做過研究調查如果是超過10年的電器它的耗電量大概比現在新的標準一級的"},{"start":194.381,"end":221.015,"text":"耗電量再多兩倍也就是二比一的概念所以如果汰換掉過去十年的老舊家電在節電效率是很好的所以十年是一個最精準也是最好的一個汰換那如果超過這個十年呢當然如果還不到十年的時候你們是不是一樣也會跟他汰換掉咧就目前經濟部在推動的老舊家電的汰換補助"},{"start":222.045,"end":239.119,"text":"我們只要是救濟回收有環境部的一個回收證明我們就可以做三千塊的補助那你覺得三千塊多還是少那當初三千塊政策在制定的時候主要是以平均均價一台冷氣機三萬塊的一成來做估算"},{"start":239.839,"end":266.156,"text":"那可是這個是這個好如果我們講是一層啦那如果說你一個套房你一個套房你是裝一台三萬塊的冷氣那如果通常你的房間如果像我們南部我們的房間都是比較大的他其實他買的這個冷氣的一個噸數會是比較大的一個噸數那你這樣補助他一層三千塊會不會稍嫌少"},{"start":267.927,"end":294.933,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實政策的目的是在做一個誘因的一個引導民眾選高效率的加點那三千塊其實是一般家庭在用的這個冷氣機的頓速去做推估的所以黨長,你一直認為說這樣的一個政策從我現在開始一直請教你的時候你認為這個政策一直就是我們持續執行的一個非常好的一個政策"},{"start":295.754,"end":323.745,"text":"是 那是不是跟委員報告一下就是其實家電汰換補助這個政策從112年執行到現在112跟113大概已經就汰換了322萬台那今年持續在執行322萬台 來 那個組長這個民眾在夏天最需要然後也是換冷氣最有感那就是說到2023年下半年到今年的6月其實財政部已經核退了"},{"start":325.895,"end":351.786,"text":"272萬台那這272萬台裡頭其實超過10年的老舊的冷氣至少還有508萬台的老舊冷氣他需要汰換的那如果再經過三年半你可能又會超過500萬台的冷氣要退稅那這一次行政院的一個草案提出來就是說你要延長那個退稅的期限到兩年半那經濟部規劃這兩年半"},{"start":354.767,"end":367.973,"text":"那你如何來推動呢站在那個冷煙署你怎麼建議他呢跟委員報告其實我們在經濟部跟財政部的合作之下我們希望在這個兩年半裡面由經濟部的加減貸款補助來強化整個退稅的一個誘因"},{"start":371.465,"end":390.791,"text":"也就是一台他可能在家庭貸款補助有三千退稅可以拿兩千所以在五千的誘因促使下是不是能夠在兩年半時間所以退稅是退兩千然後基台是補三千那就是總共是五千那有沒有限制就是說你每一個家庭一年只可以換幾次"},{"start":392.13,"end":420.872,"text":"沒有目前沒有那就是也就是用戶還是用人頭來算用電器的台數用電器的台數來算對好謝謝謝謝高組長就是我想請教次長在這個物價上漲的趨勢之下我們除了就是延長退稅的一個期限那我們是不是應該提高更高的一個誘因因為將退稅的上限如果我們提高到就是"},{"start":421.452,"end":439.627,"text":"三千塊以上的話那鼓勵就是我們的民眾加速更新我們的節能家電那就是說也把這個二零五零年的淨零排碳的一個政策目標把它達成你認為可不可行報告委員其實我們現在兩千塊錢的上限以我們現在實際課徵的那個美台的貨物稅的這個金額的話其實是相當的因為我們以這個冷氣機來看的話我就拿冷氣機來看"},{"start":449.775,"end":460.538,"text":"如果是3.6噸以上的它其實每台就是課2500左右那我們現在退稅金額其實2000元已經跟它的那個實際上應稅的金額是相當的所以我們是覺得目前這2000塊錢也是跟我們當時電器工業工會他們一起討論他們都覺得說這個額度是符合我們現在實際上貨物稅課真的狀況"},{"start":474.102,"end":495.968,"text":"像在未來可預期就是那個川普的關稅的一個調整那這個就是美中貿易戰的一個開打事實上就是物價是看來是一定會漲的那如果你這樣的一個能源政策有沒有機會調整因為這是一個鼓勵的一個政策"},{"start":496.528,"end":522.594,"text":"是跟委員報告其實因為我們現在實際上真的幾乎就已經是等於零貨物稅了啦就是退給民眾的其實就已經跟他廠商繳的稅幾乎是相當的那如果像委員講到三千元那就是變成有超額退稅的情況了那目前我們是覺得說也許這兩千元以現行來看還是符合實際上的課徵狀況是不是可以讓我們如果是一個超額的退稅的話"},{"start":523.254,"end":543.693,"text":"他如果說一年他淘汰的那個大概接近300萬台那你們要多付就少收了 台政部會少收多少錢大概是如果以他們現在估計的話我們大概會少收將近20億左右20億好這20億如果轉換就是說在這個電力上的話 划得來划不來"},{"start":549.958,"end":574.281,"text":"是划得來 因為它如果是直接去既然是划得來的話為什麼我們不朝著這樣子一個退稅的一個政策做這樣的一個修正啊可是委員 因為我們現在就是目前我們其實我們財政部提供的這個購買節能家電的這個退稅政策它本身並不需要太舊換新你只要買的是符合節能效率的就可以試用"},{"start":574.801,"end":581.646,"text":"所以他只要新的 只要去購置新的設備就可以有兩千塊錢最高兩千塊錢的稅稅當然就剛剛講的對 然後再加上經濟部這邊他是希望能夠配合我們這個政策做一個太舊換新你去淘汰那個舊的然後去購買新的當然"},{"start":594.033,"end":615.585,"text":"如果是一個好的政策我們的誘因如果可以更多的話那是不是會更好那本席也在建議就是說是不是可以嚴明更積極的一個幫民眾太舊把他就是這些老的家電把它那個就是淘汰掉那加強電氣節能標章還有就是說這些老舊的一個家電的"},{"start":616.485,"end":629.958,"text":"派換的一個宣傳這個就是財政部可以不可以積極的來協定嗎這個跟委員報告是不是我們也跟經濟部起來這個經濟部的事所以不關財政部的事情不是因為這個是補助方面那有沒有機會就是說"},{"start":631.799,"end":654.191,"text":"經濟部跟財政部互相的一個研擬那我們也希望就是說在建一山那就是研擬擴大節能家電退稅的一個種類那我希望就是說在一個月內就是書面書面就是回覆給我好不好好謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝賴慧如委員接著我們請李坤城委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時6分）謝謝主席。請財政部李次長、能源署高組長。"],["主席：請李政次、能源署高組長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["賴委員惠員：早安。先請教能源署高組長。我們今天討論修正貨物稅條例，剛才從鍾佳濱委員口中聽到貨物稅的歷史發展史，實在非常有趣。對於延長節能家電的退稅期限，這是今天本席要跟大家討論的。目前家庭用電占全國用電比例大概兩成，這個數字對不對？"],["高組長淑芳：家庭用電占全國住宅部門用電大概接近百分之十九到二十。"],["賴委員惠員：也就是占總用電量的兩成。2023年全國的總用電量是2,756億度，其中，工業用電最大宗，占了55%；住宅是19%，其次才是服務業。我們現在來討論家庭平均用電的統計。從工研院「家庭用電消費習慣調查」顯示，平均每一戶人家、每一個家庭的電器種類有21種，電器總台數有31台，這個數字應該是正確的？"],["高組長淑芳：是。"],["賴委員惠員：這工研院拉出來的。平均全國家庭年用電量的前五名電器依序排列是冷氣、電冰箱、照明、電熱器、電視機。在這裡我要特別請教的是，節能家電退稅政策是從2019年開始，從2019年開始一直到2024年，節能家電退貨物稅政策已經補助民眾205億，汰換了1,227萬台的節能家電，每年因此省下了多少的用電度數？請問組長。"],["高組長淑芳：報告委員，我們目前估算大概有10到11億度左右。"],["賴委員惠員：大概多少錢？一度多少錢？"],["高組長淑芳：如果以平均電價2.5塊來算，應該就是二十幾億。"],["賴委員惠員：二十幾億？"],["高組長淑芳：二十到二十五億。"],["賴委員惠員：我們現在來討論政策。這十年我們每年以這項政策來汰換舊電器，那麼這十年的比較標準是什麼？依據的又是什麼？"],["高組長淑芳：我們跟工研院有做過一個研究調查，如果是超過十年的電器，它的耗電量大概比現在新的標準一級的耗電量再多兩倍，也就是二比一的概念，所以如果汰換掉過去十年的老舊家電，在節電效率是很好的。"],["賴委員惠員：好，所以十年是一個最精準，也是最好的汰換？"],["高組長淑芳：是一個門檻。"],["賴委員惠員：如果超過十年，當然，如果還不到十年的時候，你們是不是一樣也會把它汰換掉呢？"],["高組長淑芳：就目前經濟部在推動的老舊家電汰換補助，只要是舊機回收，有環境部的回收證明，我們就可以做3,000塊的補助，不是這個噸數。"],["賴委員惠員：那你覺得3,000塊多還是少？"],["高組長淑芳：當初3,000塊政策在制定的時候，主要是以平均均價一台冷氣機3萬塊的一成來做估算，當然……"],["賴委員惠員：可是如果我們講一成，一個套房是裝一台3萬塊的冷氣，像南部的房間都是比較大的，其實他買的冷氣噸數會是比較大的噸數，這樣你只補助他一成3,000塊，會不會稍嫌少？"],["高組長淑芳：跟委員報告，其實政策的目的是在做一個誘因，引導民眾選購高效率的家電，3,000塊其實是以一般家庭在用的冷氣機的噸數去做推估的。"],["賴委員惠員：組長，你一直認為這樣的一個政策，從我今天開始一直請教你的時候，你認為這個政策一直是我們持續執行非常好的一個政策。"],["高組長淑芳：是，跟委員報告一下，其實家電汰換補助這個政策從112年執行到現在，112年跟113年大概就已經汰換了322萬台，今年持續在執行。"],["賴委員惠員：322萬台，組長，冷氣是民眾在夏天最需要，也是換冷氣最有感的，從2023年下半年到今年6月財政部已經核退了272萬台，其實超過十年的老舊冷氣至少還有508萬台，是需要汰換的，如果再經過三年半可能又會有超過500萬台的冷氣要退稅，這一次行政院的草案提出來，希望延長退稅的期限到兩年半，經濟部規劃這兩年半要如何來推動？站在能源署的立場，你怎麼建議它呢？"],["高組長淑芳：跟委員報告，其實在經濟部跟財政部的合作之下，我們希望在這兩年半裡面，由經濟部的家電汰換補助來強化整個退稅的誘因，也就是每一台可能在家電汰換補助有3,000，退稅可以拿2,000，所以在5,000的誘因促使下，是不是能夠在兩年半直接……"],["賴委員惠員：所以退稅是退2,000、機臺是補3,000？"],["高組長淑芳：是。"],["賴委員惠員：所以總共是5,000。"],["高組長淑芳：5,000。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有限制每一個家庭一年只可以換幾次？"],["高組長淑芳：目前沒有。"],["賴委員惠員：就是用戶，還是用人頭來算？"],["高組長淑芳：用電器的台數。"],["賴委員惠員：用電器的台數來算？"],["高組長淑芳：對。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝高組長。","接著我想請教次長，在物價上漲的趨勢之下，除了延長退稅的期限，我們是不是應該提出更高的誘因？因為退稅的上限如果提高到3,000塊以上的話，鼓勵民眾去加速更新節能家電，讓2050年淨零碳排的政策目標可以達成，你認為可不可行？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們現在依實際課徵每一台貨物稅金額2,000元的上限，其實是相當的。以冷氣機來看，如果是3.6噸以上的，每一台就是課2,500左右，我們現在退稅金額2,000元，其實已經跟實際上應稅的金額是相當的，所以我們覺得目前這2,000塊，也是當時跟電器公會一起討論的，他們都覺得這個額度是符合現在實際上貨物稅課徵的狀況。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，通貨膨脹部分，未來可預期會因為川普關稅稅率的調整，也就是美中貿易戰的開打，事實上物價看來是一定會漲的，所以這樣的能源政策有沒有機會做調整？因為這是一個鼓勵的政策。"],["李次長慶華：是，跟委員報告，因為我們現在實際上真的幾乎就已經等於是零貨物稅了，就是退給民眾的錢，其實已經跟廠商繳的稅幾乎是相當的，如果像委員講的提高到3,000元，那就會變成有超額退稅的情況了，目前我們是覺得，也許這2,000元以現行來看，還是符合實際上的課徵狀況，是不是可以讓我們先做？"],["賴委員惠員：次長，如果是超額退稅的話，一年淘汰了大概接近300萬台，財政部會少收多少錢？"],["李次長慶華：大概是……如果以他們現在估計的話，我們大概會少收將近20億左右。"],["賴委員惠員：這20億如果轉換到電力上的話，划得來划不來？"],["李次長慶華：是划得來，因為他如果是直接去……"],["賴委員惠員：好，既然是划得來的話，為什麼我們不朝著這樣的退稅政策去做修正呢？"],["李次長慶華：可是委員，目前財政部提供的購買節能家電退稅政策，本身其實並不需要汰舊換新，你只要買的是符合節能效率的就可以適用，所以他只要是購置新的設備，最高就可以有2,000塊的退稅。"],["賴委員惠員：當然，就如同剛剛能源署……"],["李次長慶華：對，再加上經濟部是希望能夠配合我們這個政策，做一個汰舊換新，你去淘汰舊的，購買新的，兩個加起來的話就是退稅5,000塊錢。"],["賴委員惠員：如果是一個好的政策，我們的誘因如果可以更多的話，那是不是會更好呢？本席也建議，可以研擬一個更積極的幫民眾汰舊換新的措施，把老舊家電給淘汰掉，加強電器節能標章，還有針對老舊家電汰換的相關宣傳？這個部分，財政部可不可以積極地來協助？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分跟委員報告，是不是我們也跟經濟部一起來研議？"],["賴委員惠員：這個是經濟部的事，所以不關財政部的事情？"],["李次長慶華：不是，因為這個是補助方面……"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有機會由經濟部跟財政部互相去做個研擬？建議研擬擴大節能家電退稅的種類，我希望你們在一個月內以書面報告回復給我，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc03154d74b9c88f802c0f390e692fb4f249a3354dc8dbd3a62cb86eaca5078d11d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:53:33 - 11:06:38","影片長度":"00:13:05","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra 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再當委員先進列席了政府金管署長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請財政部理事長也請我們的護稅署宋署長和國庫署的陳署長好 理事長齁 宋署長 陳署長委員早安次長早 兩位署長早我的標題呢 護護稅不是非關稅貿易障礙飲料品類比車輛類更要檢討來 先請教一下關稅 今天的題目請問 次長關稅會不會影響兩國的貿易量"},{"start":41.254,"end":48.459,"text":"會影響嘛所以嚴格來講關稅可不可以視為一種貿易障礙會影響貿易的進行嗎通常是貿易談判一個很重要的因素那什麼叫做非關稅的貿易障礙譬如說進口農產品的農藥檢測會造成外國農產品輸入困難會不會被當作一種非關稅的貿易障礙"},{"start":70.062,"end":89.302,"text":"會嘛,很好,我們來看一下,我們來看一下,川普他21號發文,他說非關稅的作弊有八成,他用作弊喔,他不是說障礙喔他說,台灣我看來看去,貨幣超重,台灣有沒有被列入觀察名單?有轉運逃避關稅,有沒有被擔心台灣來作為席產地?"},{"start":90.422,"end":118.111,"text":"有可能但是有一個像什麼補貼傾銷所謂的補貼跟傾銷我相信是沒有啦最近你們財政部國庫署做一個很好的事情有些中國產製的啤酒冒充本地的啤酒我們要嚴格的加以稽查你們有提高他的罰則 有沒有好 那給我們陳署長一個鼓勵該做的事要做好 台灣有沒有傾銷有沒有補貼但是有沒有利用增值稅變相實施關稅跟出國補貼有沒有 台灣有沒有"},{"start":119.815,"end":129.059,"text":"其實嚴格講起來應該是沒有你認為沒有好那我們來問一下請問貨物稅算不算一種利用增值稅變相實施關稅與出口補貼的手段"},{"start":130.267,"end":149.492,"text":"沒有 其實我們貨物稅的課程是就是國內外大家都是公平對待而且世界各國都一樣它就是一個一般的稅一般的特種消費稅所以貨物稅會不會造成兩國貿易量的下降是不是一種非關稅的貿易障礙不會不會 好 很好 肯定答案好 那我們來看一看今天來談貨物稅我們就來談貨物稅 謝謝陳署長可以請回了口頭嘉獎過了 謝謝好 我們看一下"},{"start":156.914,"end":175.005,"text":"來這是你們財政部石料研究室的南京政府時期有三種麵粉捲煙後來棉紗火柴水泥這五種後來要加上了酒跟煙這幾種這九種稅呢成為在二次大戰當時國民政府的重要財源是不是哪一項不是為了充裕國庫"},{"start":178.51,"end":202.848,"text":"他就是一個重要的就是財政收入那都找誰收找實業家嘛當年能製造麵粉的能製造火柴的能製造棉紗的都是實業家工廠在那裡你政府要跟他課稅他跑得掉嗎跑不掉嘛所以你們就是對這些有錢的實業家課稅當然他會轉嫁到消費者身上好 還有一種稅 往下看民國18年的一個報告"},{"start":205.239,"end":221.308,"text":"捲菸它是奢侈品而且會傷肺、弱腦、傷經前在場抽菸的18年前民國上班就這樣做了它變成健康菌的概念現在捲菸算不算貨物稅不課貨物稅課菸酒稅課菸酒稅好往下看所以現在貨物稅拿幾種"},{"start":223.237,"end":251.3,"text":"我們有橡膠輪胎 油氣 電氣 車輛水泥 飲料品 平板玻璃我看了一下你們在民國九十一年你們自己財政部內部的一個貨物稅之檢討距今已經二十四年 二十三年了他說輪胎這個有公共汙染油氣類要節約能源電氣類會消耗能源車輛類會造成交通堵塞這些都有外部成本所以科貨物稅的目的是要怎樣要把外部成本內部化是這樣嗎"},{"start":252.641,"end":271.829,"text":"這是你們自己寫的喔是是這樣喔好可是我搞不懂呢水泥飲料平板玻璃為什麼要課貨物稅水泥說減便因為很容易課稅你就減便就收飲料跟平板玻璃是為了財政目的財政目的收入目的那麼多為什麼找這兩個目的來下手為什麼"},{"start":274.215,"end":290.063,"text":"呃就是課程上也是便利啦便利嘛好抽的就盡量給他抽啦我要叫他思考一下我們看一下貨物稅現在佔比多不多1600億佔我們總稅收的4.3%要充裕國庫實在不需要找貨物稅而且你們還不斷的減免"},{"start":291.52,"end":320.32,"text":"貨物稅十一條之一十二條都是車輛能源效率往下看接下來貨物稅十二之三十二之五通通都是為了什麼拿在手裡然後呢給一些政策性的鼓勵所以現在貨物稅是不是變成政府的一個政策手段都點頭嘛我跟你講我一個朋友啦大家輕鬆一點齁他說他老婆手上那個鑽戒齁我說那個不是鑽戒嗎他說不是那叫小美本我說什麼叫小美本你老婆手上的鑽戒叫小美本說每次老婆跟我吵架我就說我有買鑽戒給你喔"},{"start":321.991,"end":344.456,"text":"所以我覺得政府開貨物稅啊 每當人民覺得對政府不滿覺得這個不滿 那我貨物稅給你調降一下貨物稅變成政府跟人民的小美本欸你們現在有沒有貨物稅都是在延長啊 免稅啊 抵免啊 有沒有然後時間到了呢 大家又來延長啊 抵免啊 是不是這樣可是它確實是一個政策工具 它可以改變我們消費制度是的 可是你這個政策工具有問題 我們往下看"},{"start":345.496,"end":370.678,"text":"你的財稅目的 你的徵收目的 貨物稅來是貨物稅的目的 貨物稅 固定稅率 有錢人沒有錢人都一樣有錢人他消費的占比低 沒有錢人他消費的占比高所以形同是一種窮人稅 你同不同意這個不能這樣解釋啦 因為貨物稅不是單一費率嗎因為它就是一個消費稅 消費稅的性質就是你認為它是消費稅 那為什麼這七項消費稅 我們來看一下"},{"start":372.455,"end":396.289,"text":"橡膠輪胎 油氣類 電氣類 車輛類 水泥類 飲料類 平板玻璃目前哪一個貢獻 稅務貢獻度最高車輛吧車輛 哪個貢獻度最低油漆跟車輛 對貢獻度最低的是哪一個飲料還是玻璃玻璃吧玻璃玻璃是很好的 飲料也很低啦所以哪些是有錢人用比較有錢人開車 一般人就喝飲料"},{"start":397.881,"end":413.924,"text":"有錢的人跟一般的人的消費品你們都給他課同樣的稅這合理嗎?可是因為消費稅它的性質就是這樣那為什麼只有這七種?對啊你說不出來啊既然是消費稅為什麼只有七種?來往下看"},{"start":415.017,"end":435.398,"text":"所以說現在請你們檢討啊高必需性高普及性的民生用品要調整啊避免變成是對窮人瞌睡啊有錢人在喝飲料還是一般人在喝飲料都喝差不多的錢嘛難不成比較有錢人喝得非常的貴沒有他們喝很貴的飲料呢都是菸酒稅啦我們來看一下我們來談飲品齁"},{"start":437.04,"end":460.5,"text":"目前飲料有沒有免稅的有什麼樣的飲品免稅天然 純天然的 天然的統合純天然的都免稅對不對那可是呢你們現在還規定很嚴格喔純天然的果汁跟蔬菜汁必須符合國家標準然後呢如果把這兩種混合的也可以免稅分得好細啊A"},{"start":461.581,"end":476.29,"text":"可以免稅B可以免稅所以A加B就可以免稅是不是這樣子對 兩個都一樣好 那往下看現在如果A加B加C這個C還沒有被國家標準認定是純天然的那要不要繳稅"},{"start":478.213,"end":507.273,"text":"呃如果還沒有被認定當然可能就是課稅範圍啦是啊是所以你來看齁現在很多的市售果汁是把很多調在一起他強調都是天然的都沒有加水都是百分之百但是呢必須在CNS有項目的可以只要他放了一個項目是CNS上沒有的就要按照什麼按照8%的稅是不是這樣子是好那這個很不簡正便宜嘛往下看你看看條文往前往前再往前"},{"start":508.173,"end":532.984,"text":"你來看一下喔你們怎麼證明貨物稅證明的認定要主管機關的證明文件是由進口或產製者憑主管機關工業、能源或交通主管機關然後呢來給我們的貨稅的主管機關來證明那麼呢基增機關因洽主管機關提供經驗後注意這幾個字喔本於職權誰的職權"},{"start":536.536,"end":554.734,"text":"所以基深機關的職權還是所謂的交通能源工業機關的職權基深機關的職權是嘛所以說國家標準有沒有符合最後你們要不要認定它是百分之百的天然果菜汁一樣由你們來認定嘛對不對是但是現在情況不是這樣我告訴你來往下看所以現在呢往下看"},{"start":555.914,"end":572.231,"text":"現在呢 我們的情況是 我們很多的飲料強調機能 強調健康 百分之百但是他把他的果菜汁當中有一項只要不在現在的國家標準檢驗局的項目當中你們就給他磕8%的稅 你認為合不合理"},{"start":575.06,"end":600.897,"text":"這個當然就是要看他事實上是不是最後還是符合他要 你知道嗎 國家標準檢驗局檢查一個產品少則半年多則一年這半年一年的貨物稅你要怎麼賠他他如果檢驗出來是說我A加B加C A你們已經證明是純天然 B也是純天然C呢我送去國家標準檢驗局檢查後 證明是天然那我過去這段時間繳的稅要不要退"},{"start":601.869,"end":603.41,"text":"所以說我現在先做第二點請就以立案申請並切決的CNS國家標準五項目的純天然果汁"},{"start":622.403,"end":646.26,"text":"我說我在做純天然果汁有很多的果品跟蔬菜品其中幾個項目還沒取得國家標準年齡的標準但是我竊竊了那麼你們是不是可以給我過度時間就是說比照天然的果汁先免稅如果後來驗不過我再補可以嗎可以這是一個主型的方案第二個請研議現行的高必需性高普及性的民生用品"},{"start":647.065,"end":669.741,"text":"的貨物稅我強調一次只有七項我再背一次給你聽橡膠輪胎油氣電氣車輛這四種有外部成本的另外三種水泥水泥我不曉得有沒有外部成本平板玻璃跟飲料我聽來聽去跟民生最相關的就是飲料是不是針對優先從飲料來減免貨物稅著手可不可以提個報告"},{"start":671.395,"end":690.908,"text":"委員我們可以提出報告,沒問題這七種,當然你要擴及到其他種我有沒有意見,我再唸一次給林主席站起來橡膠輪胎還有油氣類、電氣類、車輛類,這幾種是不是符合我們高B薛馨跟泡芙琴,我不知道"},{"start":692.028,"end":713.265,"text":"平板玻璃跟水泥是屬於建材獨獨這個飲品飲料類是幾乎大家每天都在喝的優先檢討飲品從貨物稅當中排除可不可以這個部分我們可以來研議然後提出一個說明跟報告給文參希望你們要瞭解我從你們民國18年貨物稅開始起徵我們研究到達到現在"},{"start":714.526,"end":728.812,"text":"貨物稅現在存在的價值跟意義都需要深刻的來檢討不要變成政府手上的熊尾笨每當人民或其他國家跟你要什麼相對的籌碼的時候你就拿來當籌碼使用要符合原來稅制的目的 可以嗎"},{"start":730.033,"end":743.559,"text":"這部分謝謝委員指教 我們會往這個方向來演繹好 謝謝委員你沒有給我們時間 所以我們報告多久出來我是因為你這邊講辣藥 我們提出報告你們要多久時間 明年以後的時間都可以"},{"start":748.926,"end":777.415,"text":"報告要多久要多久是第一個可以給我們一個月的時間好 一個月可以那至於第二個部分因為我們可能還要洽一下那個主管機關的意見也是一個月好不好對可以給我們兩個月兩個月第一個比較簡單飲料全部免稅比較簡單一個月第二個CMS比較困難要兩個月我們已經有相關的研究報告已經有研究的過程好 第一項一個月第二項兩個月是好 志願委員來報告我的時間呢24小時以內我都可以接受謝謝好 謝謝張嘉斌委員接著我們請賴會員委員"},{"start":783.947,"end":784.468,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時53分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請財政部李次長，也請賦稅署宋署長和國庫署陳署長。"],["主席：好，李次長、宋署長、陳署長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長早、兩位署長早。我的標題是「貨物稅不是『非關稅貿易障礙』，飲料品類比車輛類更應檢討」。先請教一下今天的題目：關稅。請問次長，關稅會不會影響兩國的貿易量？"],["李次長慶華：是啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：會影響嘛！"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以嚴格來講，關稅可不可以視為一種貿易障礙？會不會視為一種貿易障礙？會影響貿易的進行嘛！"],["李次長慶華：因為通常是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：廣義啦！"],["李次長慶華：對，通常是貿易談判一個很重要的因素。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，一個重要的因素。好，往下看，什麼叫做「非關稅貿易障礙」？譬如進口農產品的農藥檢測會造成外國農產品輸入困難，會不會被當作一種非關稅的貿易障礙？"],["李次長慶華：會啊，就是加強檢測……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會嘛！很好，我們看一下川普21號的發文，他控各國非關稅作弊八手段，他用「作弊」，他不是說「障礙」喔！我看來看去，其中的「貨幣操縱」，臺灣有沒有被列入觀察名單？"],["李次長慶華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：「轉運以逃避關稅」，有沒有擔心臺灣來作為洗產地？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能，但是有一個是補貼傾銷，所謂的補貼跟傾銷，我相信沒有啦，最近你們財政部國庫署做一個很好的事情，有些中國產製的啤酒冒充本地的啤酒，我們要嚴格加以稽查。"],["李次長慶華：是、對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有提高它的罰則，有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，給我們陳署長一個鼓勵，該做的事要做。好，臺灣也沒有傾銷、也沒有補貼，但是有沒有「利用增值稅變相實施關稅與出口補貼」？臺灣有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：其實嚴格講起來應該是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為沒有。好，那我們來問一下，請問貨物稅算不算是一種利用增值稅變相實施關稅與出口補貼的手段？"],["李次長慶華：沒有，其實我們貨物稅的課徵對於國內外大家都是公平對待，而且世界各國都一樣，它就是一個一般的稅、一般的特種消費稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以貨物稅會不會造成兩國貿易量的下降？是不是一種非關稅的貿易障礙？"],["李次長慶華：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會，好、很好，肯定的答案。我們來看一看，今天要談貨物稅，我們就來談貨物稅，謝謝，陳署長可以請回了，口頭嘉獎過了，謝謝。","好，我們看一下，這是你們財政部財政史料陳列室的資料，南京政府時期有三種，麵粉、捲菸，後來是棉紗、火柴、水泥，這五種後來要加上了酒和煙，這9種稅成為在二次大戰當時國民政府的重要財源，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪一項不是為了充裕國庫？貨物稅就是為了充裕國庫嘛？"],["李次長慶華：它就是一個重要的財政收入。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那都找誰收？找實業家嘛！當年能製造麵粉的、能製造火柴的、能製造棉紗的都是實業家，工廠在那裡，政府要跟他課稅，他跑得掉嗎？跑不掉嘛！"],["李次長慶華：基本上當然課徵比較……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們就是對這些有錢的實業家課稅，當然他會轉嫁到消費者身上。好，還有一種稅，民國18年的一個報告──捲菸，它是奢侈品，而且很會傷肺、弱腦、耗金錢，在場有沒有抽菸的？民國18年就這樣做了，它變成健康捐的概念，現在捲菸算不算貨物稅？"],["李次長慶華：不課貨物稅，課菸酒稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：課菸酒稅。好，所以現在貨物稅是哪幾種？我們有橡膠、輪胎、油氣、電器、車輛、水泥、飲料品、平板玻璃，我看了一下你們在民國91年財政部內部的貨物稅之檢討，距今已經23年了。檢討中說輪胎有公共污染，油氣類要節約能源，電器類會消耗能源，車輛類會造成交通堵塞，這些都有外部成本，所以課貨物稅的目的是要怎樣？要把外部成本內部化，是這樣嗎？這是你們自己寫的。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣，好。可是我搞不懂水泥、飲料、平板玻璃為什麼要課貨物稅？你們說簡便，因為很容易課稅，簡便的收，飲料跟平板玻璃是為了財政目的，財政收入目的那麼多，為什麼找這兩個目的來下手？為什麼？"],["李次長慶華：課徵上也是便利。"],["鍾委員佳濱：便利嘛！好抽的就盡量抽，我覺得要思考一下。我們來看貨物稅現在的占比多不多？1,600億，占我們總稅收的4.3%，要充裕國庫實在不需要找貨物稅，而且你們還不斷減免，貨物稅第十一條之一、第十二條都是有關車輛的能源效率，接下來是貨物稅第十二條之三、第十二條之五，通通都是為了什麼？拿在手裡，然後給一些政策性的鼓勵，所以現在貨物稅是不是變成政府的一個政策手段？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都點頭嘛！我跟你講，大家輕鬆一點，我有一個朋友說他老婆手上的鑽戒，我說：那個不是鑽戒嗎？他說不是，那叫「相罵本」。我問什麼叫「相罵本」？老婆手上的鑽戒叫「相罵本」，所以每次老婆跟我吵架，我就說我有買鑽戒給你喔！所以我覺得政府開貨物稅，每當人民覺得對政府這個不滿、那個不滿，政府就把貨物稅調降一下，貨物稅變成政府跟人民的「相罵本」，你們現在的貨物稅都是在延長、免稅、抵免，有沒有？然後時間到了，大家又來延長、抵免，是不是這樣？"],["李次長慶華：可是它確實是一個政策工具，它可以改變我們消費者的習慣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，可是你這個政策工具有問題，財稅目的、政策目的、賦稅目的，貨物稅是固定稅率，有錢人、沒有錢人都一樣，有錢人消費的占比低，沒有錢的人消費的占比高，所以形同是一種窮人稅，你同不同意？"],["李次長慶華：這個不能這樣解釋，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：貨物稅不都單一費率嗎？"],["李次長慶華：因為它就是一個消費稅，消費稅的性質就是不論你是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為它是消費稅？"],["李次長慶華：對，它是特種消費稅……"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼只有這7項消費稅？我們來看一下，橡膠輪胎、油氣類、電器類、車輛類、水泥、飲料類、平板玻璃，目前哪一個收入的貢獻度最高？"],["李次長慶華：油氣跟車輛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪個貢獻度最低？貢獻度最低的是哪一個？飲料還是玻璃？"],["李次長慶華：玻璃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：飲料也很低。"],["李次長慶華：對，飲料……"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪些是有錢人用的？比較有錢的人開車，一般人就喝飲料。但有錢人跟一般人的消費品，你們都課同樣的稅，這合理嗎？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，消費稅的性質就是這樣，它本身就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼只有這七種？你說不出來吧？既然是消費稅，為什麼只有七種？我們往下看。現在要請你們檢討並調整高必需性與高普及性的民生用品之貨物稅，避免變成對窮人課稅。請問是有錢人在喝飲料，還是一般人在喝飲料？都喝差不多的錢吧？"],["李次長慶華：對，都喝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：難不成比較有錢的人喝的非常貴？沒有，其實他們喝的那些很貴的飲料都是菸酒稅。我們現在來談飲品。目前飲料有沒有免稅的？"],["李次長慶華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼樣的飲品免稅？"],["李次長慶華：純天然果汁。"],["鍾委員佳濱：天然的最好，純天然的都免稅，對不對？可是你們現在的規定還是很嚴嚴格，純天然果汁跟蔬菜汁必須符合國家標準，如果把這兩種混合的話，也可以免稅，分的好細。換句話說，A可以免稅，B可以免稅，所以A加B就可以免稅，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：對，兩個都一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：往下看。現在如果A加B加C，但C尚未被國家標準認定為純天然，請問要不要繳稅？"],["李次長慶華：如果還沒有被認定的話，可能就是課稅範圍了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。現在很多市售果汁是把很多種調在一起，而且強調都是天然的，都沒有加水，都是百分之百，但必須是CNS有項目的才可以，只要放了一個是CNS上沒有的，就課8%的稅，是不是這樣子？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這個真的很不簡政便民！你來看一下條文，要怎麼證明？貨物稅徵免認定要主管機關的證明文件，且是由進口或產製者憑其主管機關工業、能源或交通主管機關，給我們稅務主管機關作為證明，而稽徵機關應洽主管機關提供意見後，請注意這幾個字：本於職權。誰的職權？稅捐稽徵機關的職權，還是所謂的交通、能源、工業機關的職權？"],["李次長慶華：稽徵機關的職權。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！所以有沒有符合國家標準，最後是由你們來認定，是否為百分之百的天然果菜汁一樣由你們來認定，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在情況不是這樣！往下看，我告訴你。現在我們的情況是，很多飲料都強調機能、強調健康、百分之百，但如果果菜汁當中有一項不在國家標準檢驗局的項目中，你們就要課8%的稅，你認為合不合理？"],["李次長慶華：這要看最後事實上是不是符合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊！你知道嗎？國家標準檢驗局檢查一個產品少則半年，多則一年，這半年、一年的貨物稅，你要怎麼賠他？如果檢驗出來的是A加B加C，其中，A已經證明是純天然，B也是純天然，C送去國家標準檢驗局檢查後證明是天然，那麼過去這段時間繳的稅要不要退？"],["李次長慶華：委員，因為這部分有時間上的落差，所以這部分是不是讓我們來研究一下？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我已經幫你想好方法了。我先講第二點，已立案申請並切結的CNS國家標準無項目純天然果汁……純天然果汁包含很多果品與蔬菜品，其中有幾個項目還沒取得國家標準檢驗標準，但是我切結了，所以你們是不是可以給我過渡的時間？意即比照天然果汁先免稅，若後來驗不過的話再補繳，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：可以，這是一個可行的方案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。其次，請研議現行高必需性與高普及性的民生用品之貨物稅。我再強調一次，只有七項，我再背一次給你聽：橡膠輪胎、油氣、電器、車輛，這四種是有外部成本的；另外三種是水泥……我不曉得水泥有沒有外部成本，然後是平板玻璃跟飲料。聽來聽去，跟民生最相關的就是飲料，是不是可以針對飲料優先減免貨物稅，可不可以？提個報告。"],["李次長慶華：委員，我們可以提出報告，沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這七種……若要擴及到其他種，我沒意見。主席站起來了，我再念一次給你聽：橡膠輪胎、油氣類、電器類、車輛類，這幾種是不是符合高必需性跟高普及性，我不知道；剩下的平板玻璃跟水泥是屬於建材，獨獨飲品、飲料類，幾乎是大家每天都在喝的，請優先檢討飲品，並從貨物稅當中排除，可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：這部分我們可以來研議，再提出說明跟報告給委員參考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我希望能你們了解，我從民國18年貨物稅起徵開始研究到現在，貨物稅現在存在的價值跟意義都需要深刻檢討，不要變成政府手上的相罵本！每當人民或其他國家跟你要什麼相對的籌碼時，你就拿來當籌碼使用！要符合原來稅制的目的，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員指教，這部分我們會往這個方向來研議，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：委員沒有給我們時間……"],["主席：報告多久出來？"],["李次長慶華：因為委員要我們提出報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要多久時間？我明天以後的時間都可以。"],["主席：報告要多久出來？"],["鍾委員佳濱：要多久？"],["李次長慶華：第一個是不是給我們一個月？"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月可以。"],["李次長慶華：至於第二個部分，我們可能還要接洽主管機關的意見……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也是一個月，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：可不可以給我們兩個月，讓我們提出具體的方案？"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一個比較簡單，飲料全部免稅比較簡單，所以一個月；第二個涉及CNS比較困難，要兩個月？"],["李次長慶華：這部分已經有相關的研究報告，也有研究的過程。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一個一個月，第二個兩個月，至於來報告的時間，24小時以內的時間我都可以接受，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接著我們請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 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謝謝主席我們是不是請我們的部長"},{"start":23.007,"end":50.083,"text":"委員長我先請教一下我們台南在地產業在第一線的這些這個產業別有受到美國國安調查的衝擊包括鋼鋁 汽車 半導體 藥品關鍵礦物等等這幾樣那這裡面有部分其實我們台南都占到蠻大宗的尤其在汽車的零組件這個部分"},{"start":51.204,"end":58.702,"text":"我想請問我們怎麼來協助他們如果在美國受到美國國安調查的部分這怎麼辦"},{"start":60.294,"end":80.314,"text":"我們現在大概對美國汽車的部分我們有幾個措施就是說我們會對成立這個計畫推動國際品牌車廠跟國內整車代工廠的合作我們會通盤考量關稅貨物稅等因素作為對美關稅談判的籌碼"},{"start":83.657,"end":109.687,"text":"政府一定会基于政策发展消费者权益跟台湾经贸考量进行全盘性的这些评估以后再根据未来的跟美方谈判的状况来决定相关的方案但是对业者业者他实际的碰到的状况可能每一家都不一样跟我们报告经济部的立场就透过座谈"},{"start":110.592,"end":127.013,"text":"然後一家一家的去看他們需要我們各別盤整因為確實部長你講了一個很重要的就是每一個企業雖然他可能都是汽車零組件可是他遇到的問題不一樣"},{"start":128.675,"end":142.071,"text":"他遇到的問題形形色色所以我們一定要盤點我們直接一對一單向了解他的需求這才是重要所以包括我們鋼鐵跟旅財"},{"start":145.454,"end":151.117,"text":"這個當中我們輸美的金額是76億美元汽車領主金額這是台南而已是53億美元喔電子資訊產品是792億美元生技醫藥是10億美元這是我們台南的在地生產"},{"start":162.441,"end":181.973,"text":"所以在這個部分我們如何依照各個單項了解才能夠讓他們有感尤其這一波是突然發生的大家可能都沒預期到而且他又一直不斷地強調要去做所謂的一個國安調查"},{"start":182.953,"end":198.729,"text":"那麼調查完之後我們是不是在談判桌上可以拿到我們優勢的部分我們可以有競爭力就像部長所說的今天如果大家都起頭是OK可是如果沒有呢"},{"start":200.024,"end":222.109,"text":"這才是我們現在希望跟我們的產業界變成來打一支強大的國家隊非常重要的一個關鍵部長你要回應是 報告委員我想這個這一部分我想你也非常清楚我們會根據這個四個四大項裡面大概電子資訊這個產品是最多的"},{"start":222.969,"end":248.761,"text":"這大概佔了百分之八十了那這一部分其實台灣都是優勢商品是都優勢商品我們也都問過了大概因啊遭受到的問題不會很大反而是剛才你在講汽車零組件升級醫藥這一部分呢受到的衝擊會比較大一點所以我們會根據每一個廠商譬如說我們現在面臨問題是90天內我們怎麼幫助他"},{"start":249.701,"end":276.747,"text":"所以90天以後的確定的關稅以後我們怎麼幫助他第二階段第一階段就像我第一時間拿那個圖表其實說真的現在是急診期急診期因為突然之間收到這個訊息這90天是因為他剛好又有一個緩衝90天所以這90天的我們的急診期那這個急診期大家在急診的時間要怎麼做第二階段確定了"},{"start":277.287,"end":294.055,"text":"好我們要怎麼協助產業所以部長這就是我要再問你的我們880億那卓院長有說了不一定是880億只要產業別有需要我們的特別條例過了特別預算有可能再增加所以因為"},{"start":295.316,"end":313.15,"text":"我們看到川普總統不斷的在改變他的策略所以我們要不斷的調整並不是像第一時間好我們說在14號我們要提出這個第一波的我們的所有產業的一個補助跟所有的一個支持方案"},{"start":314.091,"end":337.914,"text":"可是問題是在14號以前 川普總統一天好幾遍啊所以我們當然就要依照他的一個變化 去做不斷的調整我們要做的是讓人民有感的而不是說好像當時候第一時間 川普總統說了我們完全毫無變通的方式 就照那個做 那出來就沒什麼了"},{"start":339.099,"end":359.65,"text":"所以我認為說今天在整個支持方案我們的原則要兼顧到包括金融的支持行政成本的支持產業競爭力的提升支持還有如何開拓多元市場的支持甚至是租稅優惠因為現在"},{"start":363.346,"end":389.882,"text":"我們怎麼讓他更有競爭力 租稅也很重要再來安定就業 這個是關鍵你不能一下子再爭取政府的預算一下子再裁員一下子再放無薪假這樣跟我們的出發點是完全不同所以部長這幾個原則我們要兼顧住可是只要產業像你所說的我們個別"},{"start":391.515,"end":419.729,"text":"單向去依照每個產業 每個企業的需求他們可能回報回來 預算會更多沒有問題 我覺得現在大家是要變國家隊啦台灣隊啦 去誰要做出來啦去誰要做出來 你們要怎麼去擔保所以部長這個部分 再麻煩你們已經有方向了嗎是 確實是 如這個委員所關注的我們都有確定的方向"},{"start":420.689,"end":450.049,"text":"包括這一次可能受到衝擊比較大的我們的評估說比較衝擊比較大就是還是傳統產業那比較弱勢的包括扣件包括這個螺絲包括工具機包括手工具或者水五金等等機械這個工具機等等這一些可能遭受到衝擊的我們會針對這個衝擊的方面給予一些調適那幾個措施剛才委員也有指教了"},{"start":451.609,"end":470.614,"text":"目標是確定的啦但是我們會落實經濟部底下的機構法人機構我們有20個法人機構作為平台平台來實施教他們AI來轉型第二個透過ASCO讓他節能減淡我們ASCO另外有費用"},{"start":471.334,"end":497.379,"text":"然後可以讓他這個設備老舊的設備趁這一波可以來以舊換新等等這一些根據每一家廠商的需求不一樣但是我們有很多的籌碼都可以整合成一次來協助他們這一點呢也謝謝委員的關心我們會有方法的對那個急救的部分而不是說只給他錢沒有我們是教他"},{"start":498.04,"end":503.814,"text":"怎么样子能够钓到鱼捕到鱼然后告诉他我们的法人机构"},{"start":504.833,"end":532.728,"text":"要有耐心不是只有去給人家丟個東西不不不 這都有記點的喔不會 沒錯很重要20個法人不要只是去哇 你怎麼怎麼走啊拍拍屁股就走了不不不 報告委員他們要到我們法人機構來實作來實施 來做那請律師就要在我們的工廠裡面請阿嘎跟阿鄉所以我們的棒餅都要給他去做"},{"start":533.715,"end":554.346,"text":"部長目標確定這是我們的特別條例預算我們要盤整針對每個企業每個產業別他們的需求然後做最能夠到位的預算最有管的預算好這個部分拜託大家都在看大家都在期待謝謝部長好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時2分）謝謝主席，是不是請我們的部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我先請教一下，我們臺南在地產業在第一線的產業別，有受到美國國安調查的衝擊，包括鋼鋁、汽車、半導體、藥品、關鍵礦物等等這幾樣，這裡面有部分其實我們臺南都占到蠻大宗的，尤其是汽車的零組件。我想請問，我們怎麼來協助他們？如果受到美國國安調查的部分，這怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在大概對美國汽車的部分有幾個措施，我們會成立計畫，推動國際品牌車廠跟國內整車代工廠的合作，會通盤考量關稅、貨物稅等因素，作為對美關稅談判的籌碼。政府一定會基於政策發展、消費者權益跟臺灣經貿考量，進行全盤性的評估以後，再根據未來跟美方談判的狀況來決定相關的方案。但是對業者來說，它實際碰到的狀況可能每一家都不一樣，跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：是，個別。"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的立場就是透過座談，然後一家、一家的去看他們需要我們怎麼樣的協助……"],["陳委員亭妃：個別盤整，對不對？部長確實講了一個很重要的，每一個企業，雖然它可能都是汽車零組件，可是遇到的問題不一樣，遇到的問題形形色色，所以我們一定要盤點，我們直接一對一、單項了解它的需求，這才是重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以就臺南而言，鋼鐵跟鋁材輸美的金額是76億美元，汽車零組件的部分是53億美元，電子資訊產品是792億美元，生技醫藥是10億美元，這是我們臺南在地產業的數據。所以在這個部分，我們如何就各個單項了解，才能夠讓他們有感？尤其這一波是突然發生的，大家可能都沒預期到，而且它又一直不斷的強調要去做所謂的國安調查，那麼調查完之後，我們是不是在談判桌上可以拿到我們優勢的部分，我們可以有競爭力。就像部長所說的，今天如果大家都齊頭式，那OK，可是如果沒有呢？我們現在希望跟產業界共同組成一支強大的國家隊，這是非常重要的關鍵，部長，您要回應？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想這一部分你也非常清楚，我們會根據四大項裡面，其中電子資訊這個產品是最多的，大概占了80%，其實這一部分都是臺灣的優勢商品，我們也都問過了，大概他們遭受的問題不會很大。反而是剛才你在講汽車零組件、生技醫藥，這一部分受到的衝擊會比較大一點，所以我們會根據每一個廠商，譬如我們現在面臨的問題是90天內怎麼幫助它；90天以後確定關稅後，我們怎麼幫助它。"],["陳委員亭妃：第二階段。"],["郭部長智輝：對，對。"],["陳委員亭妃：第一階段就像我第一時間拿的那個圖表，其實說真的，現在是急診期……"],["郭部長智輝：是啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：現在是急診期，因為突然之間收到這個訊息，因為它剛好又有一個緩衝90天，所以這90天就是我們的急診期，大家在急診的時間要怎麼做？等第二階段確定了，好，我們要怎麼協助產業？所以部長，這就是我要再問你的，我們有880億，卓院長有說了，不一定是880億，只要產業別有需要，我們的特別條例過了，特別預算有可能再增加。因為我們看到川普總統不斷地在改變他的策略，所以我們也要不斷地調整，並不是像第一時間……我們說在14號要提出第一波所有產業的補助，跟所有的支持方案，可是問題是在14號以前，川普總統一天好幾變，所以我們當然就要依照他的變化不斷地去做調整。我們要做的是讓人民有感的，而不是像當初第一時間川普總統說了，但我們完全、毫無變通的方式，就照那個做，那出來就被人罵死了。所以我認為今天在整個支持方案，我們的原則要兼顧，包括金融的支持、行政成本的支持、產業競爭力的提升支持，還有如何開拓多元市場的支持，甚至是租稅優惠，因為現在關稅提高了，我們怎麼讓它更有競爭力，租稅也很重要。再來，安定就業這個是關鍵，你不能一下子在爭取政府的預算，一下子在裁員，一下子在放無薪假，這樣跟我們的出發點就完全不同。","所以部長，這幾個原則我們要兼顧住，可是像你所說的，我們個別單項依照每個產業、每個企業的需求，他們可能回報回來的預算會更多，沒有問題，我覺得現在大家是在拚國家隊啦、臺灣隊啦，氣勢要做出來啦！氣勢要做出來，不然你們是要怎麼樣去談判？部長，這個部分再麻煩你們，已經有方向了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，確實如委員所關注的，我們都有確定的方向，包括這一次可能受到衝擊比較大的，我們的評估衝擊比較大的還是傳統產業，而比較弱勢的包括扣件，包括螺絲，包括工具機，包括手工具或者水五金等等，機械、工具機這一些可能遭受到衝擊的，我們會針對這些衝擊的方面給予一些調適。而幾個措施，剛才委員也有指教了，我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：目標啦！目標是確定的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，目標在那邊，但是我們會落實……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，落實……"],["郭部長智輝：透過經濟部底下的法人機構，我們有20個法人機構作為平臺來實施，教他們AI轉型；第二個，透過ESCO讓他們節能減碳，ESCO另外有費用，可以讓他們的老舊設備趁這一波來以舊換新；根據每一家廠商的需求不一樣，但是我們有很多的籌碼可以整合，一次來協助他們。對於這一點，也謝謝委員的關心，我們會有方法的，針對急救的部分，而不是只給他們錢，沒有！我們是教他們怎麼樣能夠釣到魚、捕到魚，然後告訴他們魚在哪裡。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們的法人機構要有耐心，不是只有去給人家丟個東西……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這是有記點的喔，幫助多少廠商……"],["陳委員亭妃：很重要，20個法人不要只是去「你就這樣做、那樣做」，然後拍拍屁股就走了。"],["郭部長智輝：不，報告委員，他們要到我們法人機構來實作，實際的做，要用車床做螺絲也就要在工廠裡面做，要把他們教到會，所以我們會給他們訂單讓他們去做。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，目標確定是我們的特別條例，我們要盤整預算，針對每個企業、每個產業別的需求做最能夠到位的預算、最有感的預算，這個部分拜託……"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["陳委員亭妃：大家都在看，大家都在期待，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員。","下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc075f146195b9e89ee9ac021369aff85ba9a3354dc8dbd3a623e63146d6c8f82985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:56:05 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報告委員一般查核的這個內容跟他的這個查的深度那麼是由調查局來做這個規範的那麼我們就是按照現在的這個公務人員這個服務法公務員服務法跟公務人員任用法這兩條的規定然後把它按照他所聘任的職位那麼送去這個分別進行這個特殊查核和一般查核"},{"start":117.278,"end":142.204,"text":"我先回應一下第一個這樣子的說法我想就表示說我們今天的這個會議裡面說要考核管制的具體做法你就等於是把它直接就交給去這個調查局你沒有在做內部的檢討說為什麼有經過查核之後那還是有發現這樣的問題嗎我們要的是跨部會的檢討而不是就是那就交給調查局然後第二點我也蠻驚訝就是說"},{"start":143.504,"end":162.053,"text":"有媒體那麼多次講說只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核但是你們沒有去澄清說不僅僅只有在國安會有特殊查核你們在外交部之前也有經過查核的這個該做的一般查核那這個新聞已經兩三天都在講好像說只有一次"},{"start":163.214,"end":187.551,"text":"沒有嘛你們其實有有完整的把該做的這些項目你們有完整的去做嗎你們也有把一般查核的部分把該員也有做一般查核我們這樣講對不對這個機會要跟媒體要澄清一下是我們那個一定對於這個外界來做這個我們事實上在這個這個核心的前任之役一等之役的這個案子發生之後我們也有在內部透過政風調查那麼做過查核那麼相關的內容我們也會"},{"start":192.154,"end":214.605,"text":"這個交給這個檢調機關那麼進行以利後續的這個辦案謝謝喔因為我還是強調因為不管是這個特殊查核大概是1154個職位是要做特殊查核那主要是偏用於機要或者是這個主任秘書一級單位的主管等等那可能就是偏向的是公務人員是"},{"start":215.225,"end":232.435,"text":"但是在約聘僱人員或者是說政務任命的就沒有那麼多我還是要強調說這個也是要檢討的範圍嘛因為我們都知道說該人員核心助理對他是約聘僱但是他接觸到的是什麼"},{"start":233.516,"end":251.711,"text":"包含行程等等全部都有接觸到那這麼重要的一個人物你用最簡單的方式一般查核是這是對的嗎那麼委員質詢的這個方向原本是我們未來改進精進的一個方向我們也希望就是說我希望外交部"},{"start":252.672,"end":267.252,"text":"能夠內部重新檢討過一次就昨天我有跟那個部長我們有在質詢前幾天有在質詢的時候就有提到啊不可以說就直接把這個東西調給法務部是你們決定這一個人的重要性是"},{"start":269.829,"end":292.207,"text":"你怎麼會用這樣的方式剛才我說的我們會跟國防部互動交流根據按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考之後精進檢討就是說不是以人的職位或者是職等而是以它揭秘的程度來作為好不好跟國防部學習一下因為我質詢顧部長從去年就質詢到現在"},{"start":295.47,"end":318.285,"text":"慢慢的都有在調整那甚至是在決定該員的揭密層級的時候部長在上次有提到啊就是說以後不是只有主觀來去決定啊美方有一個完整的檢討機制啊此人可能接觸到的密等不是有主觀一個人比方說官會諮詢委員那我就把你當成是一般就好了還甚至是沒有揭密"},{"start":319.6,"end":347.869,"text":"這都要檢討的而且是現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難這個美國中國之間的這樣的狀況之下我們希望你們內部先檢討一下是那麼感謝委員的催訓我們這個之後一定來這個相關的來檢討我來問一下是這個在合圓也好啦或者是無緣也好沒關係我們就先從外交部的部分來講是在這個在被發現之前有沒有任何內部的這個通報"},{"start":350.168,"end":374.865,"text":"有沒有任何他的同事來去做最近他的作為什麼的據我們的了解是說沒有看得到的為異常狀況所以沒有人通報嘛對不對沒有異常的通報對不對假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團個人來去接觸的話會不會有異常通報異常通報負責的單位是誰"},{"start":378.988,"end":383.254,"text":"振峰振峰為異常狀況的話我來講一下我現在手上的是這個DC"},{"start":389.977,"end":408.953,"text":"SA反情報手冊是由美國反情報安全局他們做的這個手冊這手冊的目的是什麼我們不要事後再來去捕破網我們事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候就必須要在第一時間來去回報"},{"start":411.155,"end":426.066,"text":"外交部要被回報的機構是什麼?是政風處嗎?就是如果有異常行為的話就會外交部我們大概是整合政風跟地域跟各個區域的私處來做相關的規範"},{"start":428.188,"end":452.115,"text":"我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來就是說他們有一個標準的做法我們現在做的不僅僅是在事後的調查我們要事前的反情報而且這不需要跨部會去做那包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼外國機構會用比如說你喜歡被認同啊所以會故意去問你一些這個跟你專業相關的問題啊讓你去講想些你的博學啊你會禮貌"},{"start":453.155,"end":467.327,"text":"甚至出外他們會透過外交單位來去跟你來接觸啊或者是透過這些智庫單位來去跟你去接觸啊或者是在第三地來去跟你去接觸啊那你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性你們低估這個職位的重要性啊"},{"start":468.668,"end":492.01,"text":"這些都是有可能的所以說未來通報必須要有義務的就是說外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當或者是授權不當的要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊來提供的時候你就必須要有這個機制所以外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習把這樣子的回報機制把它講出來在遇到這樣的時間點第一時間你必須要怎麼樣回報給部內是"},{"start":493.571,"end":521.482,"text":"所以我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查了而是事前的反情報內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在那其實調查這麼久了部內一無所知沒有做相關的防範的話也是不行的其實今天要講的很多啦還有包含在最後一點我國的這些外交人員如果他去到第三國就是非中國以外的第三國我們講說是非"},{"start":523.393,"end":550.847,"text":"歐盟跟美國以外他的通訊設備他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備可以出國嗎還是要全面換新你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整啊比方說你到港澳負責兩岸的事務的官員或許還是會有去港澳的這個可能性那如果這些我現在講的不是外交部我想的是比方說如果是涉及港澳的官員或者是中港澳的官員那他所帶的通訊設備包括那手機平板全部都要統一配發新的啊"},{"start":551.912,"end":577.902,"text":"外交部也是如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家是一回事但是如果是到非我建交的國家中國影響力大的國家你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討所以我們現在講的已經不是在事後再去追溯了我們現在講的是事前的防範反情報的一些方式麻煩一下外交部不能夠說這樣子推到說這個是調查局他可以做這個一般查核那我們已經把東西交給調查局了就跟你們無關了"},{"start":579.042,"end":600.376,"text":"不可以這樣子做好不好當然我們會持續的來檢討精進喔那麼對於人員的考核那我想過去的時候採取入職之前的一個調查而且我覺得有點狀況我還就是說奇怪怎麼這幾個月他在講這件事情的時候這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次就只有國安會入職之前查核一次問題是你們也有查核這件事情竟然到現在才"},{"start":601.136,"end":625.865,"text":"外交部有查核一次但是用一般的這個查核按照規定你也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核那這個特殊查核就是特殊查核你們有把你們的工作做好但是我要提到的是說人家媒體說你們沒有你這個時候第一時間也要反應我們現在不僅僅是國家安全的問題還有包含這些錯假亂訊息的這個第一時間的回覆都要做好 謝謝"},{"start":628.914,"end":636.063,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請醫事人員宣讀"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時56分）我們請外交部次長。"],["陳次長明祺：陳委員好！"],["陳委員冠廷：你好！我剛剛看到你們這個報告，在第2頁現行作法的部分，請參閱一下，有提到涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核，外領人員及約聘僱人員在進用前均辦理一般查核……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：昨天調查局局長在回應其他人質詢的時候似乎有提到，這個何姓助理過去有辦理過一次特殊查核，是在進國安會之前，在外交部時，有沒有辦理？"],["陳次長明祺：他只有一般查核，他是用諮議來聘僱的，所以是視同聘僱人員。"],["陳委員冠廷：想請教一下，所以現在媒體所報導的，他只有經過一次查核是對的，還是錯的？"],["陳次長明祺：他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核，但是到了外交部是一般查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以他有經歷過一般查核？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題？外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容是不是要經過一些調整？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，一般查核的內容及查核的深度是由調查局來做規範的，我們就是按照現在的公務員服務法及公務人員任用法這兩部法的規定，按照他所聘任的職位，送去分別進行特殊查核和一般查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：我先回應一下。第一個、我們今天這個會議裡面是要報告考核管制的具體作法，你這樣的說法就等於是把他直接交給調查局，你沒有在做內部檢討，為什麼經過查核之後，還是發生這樣的問題？我們要的是跨部會的檢討，而不是就交給調查局；第二點、我也蠻驚訝的，有媒體那麼多次講他只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核，但是你們沒有去澄清，說他不僅僅只有在國安會之前有特殊查核，在外交部之前你們也有做該做的一般查核……"],["陳次長明祺：一般查核，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個新聞都已經講兩、三天，好像說只有一次。沒有嘛！你們其實有把該做的這些項目完整去做，你們對該員也有做一般查核，我們這樣講，對不對？藉這個機會，要跟媒體澄清一下。"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們一定對外界來做澄清。事實上，在這個何姓前任一等諮議的案子發生之後，我們也有在內部透過政風調查，做過查核，相關的內容我們也會交給檢調機關，以利後續的辦案。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。我還是強調，因為大概只有1,154個職位要做特殊查核，而且主要偏用於機要，或者是主任秘書、一級單位主管等等的，就是偏向公務人員……"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是在約聘僱人員或者是政務任命的，就沒有那麼多，我還是要強調，這個也是要檢討的範圍，因為我們都知道該何姓助理是約聘僱，但是他接觸到的是什麼？包含行程等等全部都有接觸到，這麼重要的一個人物，你們卻用最簡單的方式一般查核，這是對的嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：委員質詢的這個方向也是我們未來改進、精進的方向，我們也希望……"],["陳委員冠廷：我希望外交部……"],["陳次長明祺：我們也會建議……"],["陳委員冠廷：自己內部……"],["陳次長明祺：這個我們自己會。"],["陳委員冠廷：重新檢討過一次，我跟部長前幾天在質詢的時候就有提到，你們不可以就直接把這個東西丟給法務部，是你們決定這一個人的重要性。"],["陳次長明祺：是，所以我們……"],["陳委員冠廷：對啊！你們怎麼會用這樣的方式呢？"],["陳次長明祺：就如剛才我說的，我們會跟國防部互動交流，按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考，之後精進檢討，也就是不是以人的職位或者是職等，而是以他接密的程度來作為……"],["陳委員冠廷：好不好？跟國防部學習一下。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我質詢顧部長，從去年就質詢到現在，慢慢的都有在調整，甚至是在決定該員接密層級的時候，部長在上次有提到，以後不是只由主官來決定，美方有一個完整的檢討機制，此人可能接觸到的密等不是由主官一個人決定，比方國安會諮詢委員就把他當成是一般就好了，還甚至是沒有接密，這都要檢討的……"],["陳次長明祺：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：而且現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難，在美國、中國這樣的狀況之下，我們希望你們內部先檢討一下。"],["陳次長明祺：是，感謝委員的垂詢，我們之後一定朝相關的方向來檢討。"],["陳委員冠廷：我來問一下，何員也好或者是吳員也好，沒關係，我們就先從外交部的部分來講，在被發現之前，有沒有任何內部的通報？有沒有任何他的同事來反映最近他的作為做了什麼？"],["陳次長明祺：據我們的了解，沒有看得到的為異常狀況。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以沒有人通報，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有人通報。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有異常的通報，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有。"],["陳委員冠廷：假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團的個人來接觸的話，會不會有異常通報？異常通報的負責單位是誰？"],["陳次長明祺：政風，為異常狀況的話……"],["陳委員冠廷：我來講一下，我現在手上的是DCSA反情報手冊，是由美國反情報安全局所做的手冊，這手冊的目的是什麼？我們不要事後再來補破網，事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候，就必須要在第一時間去回報，外交部要被回報的機構是什麼？是政風處嘛！如果有異常行為的話，外交部第一個時間……"],["陳次長明祺：我們大概就整合政風跟各個區域的司處來做相關的規範。"],["陳委員冠廷：我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來？就是他們有一個標準的作法，我們現在做的不僅僅是事後的調查，還要有事前的反情報，而且這必須要跨部會去做，包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼，外國機構會用……比方你喜歡被認同，所以會故意去問你一些跟你專業相關的問題，讓你去展現你的博學，甚至他們會透過外交單位來跟你接觸，或者是透過這些智庫單位來跟你接觸，或者是在第三地跟你接觸，你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性、低估這個職位的重要性，這些都是有可能的。所以未來通報必須要有義務的，就是外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊做提供的時候，你就必須要有這個機制，因此外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習，把這樣子的回報機制講出來，在遇到事情的第一時間必須要怎麼樣回報給部內。我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查，而是事前的反情報，內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在，其實調查這麼久了，部內一無所知，沒有做相關防範的話，也是不行的。","其實今天要講的很多啦！還有包含最後一點，我國的這些外交人員，如果他們去到第三國，就是非中國以外的第三國，我們講的是非歐盟跟美國以外，關於他的通訊設備，他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備出國嗎？還是要全面換新？你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整，比方你到港澳負責兩岸事務的官員，或許還是會有去港澳的可能性，我現在講的不是外交部，我講的比方如果是涉及港澳的官員，或者是中港澳的官員，那他所帶的通訊設備包含手機、平板全部都要統一配發新的啊！"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：外交部也是，如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家，那是一回事，但是如果是到非我國建交的國家、中國影響力大的國家，你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討的。"],["陳次長明祺：當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們現在講的已經不是事後再去追溯，而是事前防範、反情報的一些方式。麻煩一下，外交部不能夠這樣子推到說這是調查局可以做一般查核，而你們已經把東西交給調查局就跟你們無關了，不可以這樣子做，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：當然，我們會持續來檢討、精進，那麼對於人員的考核，過去的時候是採取入職之前的一個調查，我想現在可能也不太夠。"],["陳委員冠廷：而且我覺得有點狀況外，就是奇怪，怎麼這幾個月大家在講這件事情的時候，這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次，就只有國安會入職之前查核一次，外交部也有查核這件事情，竟然到現在才……"],["陳次長明祺：外交部有查核一次，但是用一般的查核，至於剛才……"],["陳委員冠廷：可是按照規定，你們也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛！因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核、特殊查核就是特殊查核，你們有把你們的工作做好，但是我要提到的是，媒體說你們沒有，你們在第一時間也要反映……"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們要對外溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：現在不僅僅只是國家安全的問題，還有包含這些錯假亂訊息第一時間的回復都要做。"],["陳次長明祺：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。","接下來處理臨時提案，共兩案，請議事人員宣讀第一案。","一、","案由：國軍肩負保衛國家使命，需投入長時間專注戰訓本務，還全天候待命救災勤務，可謂付出高密集、高工時之「高強度勞動行業」，為嘉勉其辛勞付出，福利本應從優厚給之；惟《國軍軍官士官請假規則》第三條第一項第六款卻規範「受訓期間於次年度慰勞假核給時，應按比例扣除」顯與常理相違背，侵害官兵休假權益。","相比勞工身份，主管指派外訓上課者，公司給與公假，係比照《勞工請假規則》第八條「勞工依法令規定應給予公假者，工資照給」以公假處理，另《公務人員訓練進修法施行細則》第十一條第一項明定「國內外全時進修者，應於進修期間給予公假」，足以顯示「受訓視同上班核給公假」為無爭議之普世價值，軍人為廣義公務員理應同等比照。","軍人身處高強度勞動行業未能確實放假減壓健全身心，國防部當以去（113）年上半年發生的自傷海嘯時刻警醒，刪除請假規則中「受訓」二字。","提案人：徐巧芯　　林憶君　　馬文君　　陳永康　　黃　仁"],["主席：請提案委員說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝主席。這個主要是我們基層的休假權益，其實在受訓的時候，一般來說，應該核給公假是大家沒有爭議、普遍的想法，可是軍人卻是在受訓之後還要去扣他的慰勞假，也就是等於我們一般講的特休假，這其實對於基層的官兵是非常不公平的，也沒有讓他們有足夠的權益。剛才跟國防部溝通之後，我們在文字上面有一些修正，大概就是在最後一段「軍人身處高強度勞動行業未能確實放假減壓健全身心，國防部當以去（113）年上半年發生的自傷海嘯時刻提醒」，然後後面改成「國防部應評估研擬修訂請假規則中第三條第六款及第七款，並於一個月內提出報告。」剛剛已經有跟國防部溝通過相關的文字，我本人也是同意的，謝謝。"],["主席：請國防部對於提案內容提出意見。"],["楊次長基榮：誠如委員所關切的，剛剛跟委員私底下報告過，就按照委員剛才所指導的事項來修正。"],["主席：請問在場的委員有無意見？本提案修正通過。","接下來請議事人員宣讀第二案。","二、","案由：政府為安定員工生活、激勵工作士氣，由行政院人事行政總處依《全國軍公教員工待遇支給要點》第七點辦理公務人員福利事項，其中全國公教員工房屋貸款「築巢優利貸」114年至116年期間由臺灣銀行承作，利息為2.185%；全國公教員工信用貸款「貼心相貸」113年至116年由土地銀行以利息2.205%計算辦理。","經查，國軍該福利事項業務係由國防部主計局辦理，承作方式略異於公教人員，提供五間銀行給官兵選擇，倘以同間銀行進行比較發現房貸部份臺灣銀行提供國軍利息為2.277%，略高於公教人員近0.1%；惟信用貸款部分各銀行利息均超過3%，公股土銀、臺銀卻高達3.764%，足足是公教人員1.7倍。","軍人為廣義之公務員，福利措施同等比照公教人員應為基本，福利應當從優厚給以彌補其繁重勤務之辛勞付出，國防部應即刻啟動與各銀行商議調降二種類貸款利息，以提振軍人社會地位及光榮使命感。","提案人：徐巧芯　　林憶君　　馬文君　　陳永康　　黃　仁"],["主席：請問提案委員需不需要說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：不需要，因為這個部分跟國防部溝通後沒有其他問題，先前也已經在質詢過程當中說明了。總之，既然它叫做國軍的專案，就應該有更優惠的相關利率，而不是比公務人員還來得低，這個是我們的期望。內容上面的話，剛才國防部來溝通，也沒有任何異議，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐巧芯委員。請問國防部對於這個提案的內容有無意見？"],["楊次長基榮：沒有意見，按照委員的提案。"],["主席：好，在場的委員有沒有意見？OK，本提案照案通過。","現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續詢答。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時18分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來由楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}},{"id":"160511","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160511","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc08f8ad4776b62665e7fe8c6252e35fc4a9a3354dc8dbd3a62da6c27b9980abdb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:52:37 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我想要請國發會的高副主委好 請高副主委委員好副主委好因為國發會是台積電的股東我想要請問一下之前台積電宣布1000億投資美國那未來會不會再有加碼 會不會"},{"start":28.973,"end":33.535,"text":"有可能嗎我們雖然是台積電的股東我們沒有辦法幫台積電做發言你們參與相關的會議裡面那台積電會不會有再加碼的"},{"start":44.9,"end":60.397,"text":"這樣子的情況我想會不會加碼應該如果就他目前投資應該就是以這個加增加1000億為那個那至於後面會不會加碼可能要看後續的情況而定而且這個應該是公司本身的考量"},{"start":61.238,"end":87.319,"text":"因為這個東西其實對台灣來講一般的民眾來講大家認為非常重要的就是因為他們希望即便台積電到美國去設廠但也要把重要的根留在台灣而不是整個供應鏈都到美國去在這個情況下我想要請問怎麼樣子把根留在台灣"},{"start":88.525,"end":116.375,"text":"跟委員報告 其實目前二瀨米其實今年已經在台灣已經可以量產了那等到美國的這些台積電要到美國去設廠那六個廠完成也是要三年跟五年以後的事情所以台灣在先進半導體的這一塊裡面台灣的就是的確在台灣整個產能在最近就是剛才那個台積電有告發說就算他六個廠完成以後最多也只佔他百分之三十"},{"start":117.815,"end":142.523,"text":"那所以基本上在所以先進製程的產能其實還是在台灣以台灣為主百分之三十的部分就是魏哲嘉那個董事長他在法說會裡面講的就是說就算他所有在目前在美國的所有要建廠的完成以後也只佔二耐敏製程裡面的百分之三十"},{"start":143.263,"end":150.067,"text":"那要是好幾年以後是全球的30%還是美國的30%台積電所有先進製程2奈米以下的30%那1.8呢我覺得接下來2奈米以下它就會往2奈米以下繼續往前進所以我們絕對台灣的先進製程的絕對會領先在"},{"start":172.318,"end":186.311,"text":"美国的这些厂商好谢谢那请回那个郭部长好像对这个题目非常的胸有成竹有准备你来说郭部长请郭部长"},{"start":188.368,"end":203.702,"text":"我想台積電這個題目確實是我非常熟練的題目我跟委員報告台積電前面這三個廠是650億後來要增加大概是1000億"},{"start":205.564,"end":222.675,"text":"那這個是他們已經宣布的事情但是把這個1650億完成的投資這裡面二奈米因為它前面兩個廠一個是四奈米一個是三奈米所以它後面這個二奈米三個廠加起來包括台灣台灣大概有七個廠"},{"start":224.076,"end":246.134,"text":"那這加起來大概占30%好台灣這七個廠七個廠或者將來會再增加必須要看到市場的變異它台積電確實現在開始要設入1.4或者1.6奈米的這個先進製程對 他們已經在做可是1.8是不是已經相對成熟了"},{"start":246.334,"end":265.963,"text":"那個是所謂的縮小版那個部分隨時都是ready的但是他不一定會採取因為那個就是說客戶是不是要用這個製程這個是決定在客戶但台積電比較厲害的地方就是說"},{"start":267.023,"end":291.176,"text":"我今天我的各種先進製程我除了能夠研發以外我能夠大量生產那個大量生產出來的良率我都是靠良率在贏別人的比如說我良率都是七成以上那美國的良率呢他就是贏在這個上面我說美國的良率有沒有辦法比台灣的良率高"},{"start":291.823,"end":313.878,"text":"如果假以时日会跟台湾并起不会比台湾高对啊我是说美国的良率有没有办法比台湾高所以他要晚一个generation的话晚一个generation的话就会跟在台湾的那个世代是一样我看到一个新闻啦就是美国的制造业"},{"start":314.699,"end":330.141,"text":"以高端的就是說成衣像Amos來講他說在美國廠的Amos的那個皮的廢料的就是說耗率是高於其他地區的"},{"start":330.501,"end":351.211,"text":"那所以其實從當初的拜登總統他的晶片法案就是希望台積電或者是這樣子高端的半導體能夠回到美國製造但是美國的製造業有沒有辦法像其他地區一樣這是美國要面對的挑戰嘛"},{"start":355.273,"end":371.421,"text":"那你對台積電很在行啊對於他們這些先進的製程來說的良率有沒有辦法到達像台灣這樣子以及未來我們怎麼樣子能夠把台積電的耕留台灣呢"},{"start":372.761,"end":398.189,"text":"報告委員我想我們現在在亞利桑那裡面因為還有蠻多台積電在台灣的同事去把他的這個量力不斷的在做一些改善提升那現在大概他那個4奈米的部分已經跟台灣的4奈米的製程量力是差不多的就是說經過改善當然會達到到台灣的水準但是要超越台灣其實是有難度的"},{"start":398.919,"end":416.451,"text":"有難度嗎 是不是那我要再請問喔就是目前台灣對美的出口是1163億美元那其中我們的貿易順差是739億美元這裡面有沒有包含軍購台灣對美的軍購沒有 是不是"},{"start":422.315,"end":447.191,"text":"有報紙說啦如果越南透過軍事採購來降低他們對美的關稅那我們有沒有可能這樣子我們有沒有可能加大對美的軍事的採購對美的現在這樣就是說你如果透過民間去採購軍品就透過美國的海關那就會算"},{"start":448.072,"end":473.984,"text":"你如果透過美國的政府不透過海關就不算透過美國的軍購透過美國政府買來的軍購是有保障的透過民間買來的軍購是沒保障的那這個就是抉擇的問題不是不是我講的是說在未來我們整個關稅的談判上面那如果我們加大對美的軍購"},{"start":476.209,"end":498.335,"text":"有沒有辦法能夠降低這個稅越南已經在做了嘛越南有可能會加大他們對美的軍購嘛那既然你說了我們的軍購不算在我們順差的數字裡面那會不會有可能我們要加大軍購加大多少我買很多的軟體啊其實美國都沒有算在關稅上面"},{"start":500.664,"end":521.959,"text":"在談判的時候我們都會跟美國溝通不能夠只從名目上面的關稅資料關稅的紀錄來談這樣子 出操入操但是因為美國他要解決的問題不是只有貿易逆差的問題他要解決很多的譬如說金融上面失衡的問題"},{"start":522.859,"end":539.442,"text":"還有他要讓美國再度偉大製造上面製造空洞化的問題所以我們是我想我們的那個談判小組他們會針對所有美國關心的命題一一的去跟他談判這不是只有單獨一個所謂貿易失衡的問題"},{"start":541.206,"end":568.377,"text":"所以軍購也是有可能那個都是可以談的一個項目而且按照你說的不一定是真的軍購嘛可能從軟體的數字或者是軟體是不計關稅的不計關稅就是不算在也不算在那個數字裡面我們跟美國買那麼多軟體你看看所以未來希望說我們能夠加大就是說把所有對我們有利的關稅條件都拿去談好不好"},{"start":569.687,"end":570.718,"text":"好谢谢谢谢韦英"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時52分）謝謝主席。我想要請國發會高副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：副主委好。因為國發會是台積電的股東，我想要請問一下，之前台積電宣布加碼1,000億投資美國，未來會不會再有加碼？有可能嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們雖然是台積電的股東，但我們沒有辦法幫台積電發言。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，可是就你們參與相關的會議裡面，台積電會不會有再加碼的情況？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：關於會不會加碼，如果就它目前的投資，應該就是以增加1,000億為主，至於後面會不會加碼？這可能要看後續的情況而定，而且這個應該是公司本身的考量，不是我們政府可以決定的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，這個東西其實對臺灣一般民眾來講，大家認為非常重要，因為他們希望即便台積電到美國去設廠，也要把重要的根留在臺灣，而不是整個供應鏈都到美國去。在這個情況下，我想要請問怎麼樣把根留在臺灣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，其實2奈米今年在臺灣已經可以量產了，等到台積電到美國去設的那六個廠完成，也是3年到5年以後的事情，所以臺灣在先進半導體的這一塊，的確臺灣整個產能在最近……台積電也有提到，就算它六個廠完成以後，最多也只占它的30%，所以先進製程的產能其實還是在臺灣，以臺灣為主。"],["謝委員衣鳯：30%的部分是……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這是魏哲家董事長在法說會裡面講的，就算未來美國所有要建的廠完成以後，也只占2奈米製程的30%，而且那是好幾年以後。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是全球的嗎？是全球的30%，還是美國的30%？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：台積電所有先進製程2奈米以下的百分之三十。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那1.8奈米的呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得接下來它就會往2奈米以下繼續前進，所以臺灣的先進製程絕對會領先美國的這些廠商。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝，請回。郭部長好像對這個題目非常的胸有成竹、有準備，郭部長，由你來說。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，台積電這個題目確實是我非常熟練的題目，台積電前面這三個廠是650億，後來要增加的大概是1,000億，這個是他們已經宣布的事情。但是把這1,650億完成的投資，這裡面2奈米……因為它前面兩個廠，一個是4奈米，一個是3奈米，再加上後面2奈米共三個廠，包括臺灣，臺灣大概有七個廠，加起來大概占30%。臺灣是七個廠，或者將來會再增加，這必須要看市場的變異，不過台積電確實現在開始要涉入1.4或者1.6奈米的先進製程。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，他們已經在做了，可是1.8奈米是不是已經相對成熟了？"],["郭部長智輝：那個是所謂的shrimp version，就是縮小版，那個部分隨時都是ready的，但是它不一定會採取，因為客戶是不是要用這個製程，這個是決定在客戶。但台積電比較厲害的地方是有各種先進製程，除了能夠研發以外，也能夠大量生產，而且大量生產出來的良率，它都是靠良率在贏別人的，譬如說，它的良率都是七成以上，別人的良率只有百分之十幾……"],["謝委員衣鳯：美國的良率呢？"],["郭部長智輝：它就是贏在這個上面。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我說，美國的良率有沒有辦法比臺灣的良率高？"],["郭部長智輝：假以時日可能會跟臺灣並齊，但不會比臺灣高。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊，我是說美國的良率有沒有辦法比臺灣高？因為……"],["郭部長智輝：所以他要晚一個generation的話，就會跟在臺灣那個世代是一樣的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我看到一則新聞，美國的製造業以高端成衣Hermes來講，它說Hermes美國廠的皮廢料耗率是高於其他地區的。所以其實當初拜登總統的晶片法案就是希望台積電或者這樣子高端的半導體能夠回到美國製造，但是美國的製造業有沒有辦法像其他地區一樣？這是美國要面對的挑戰。你對台積電很在行，對於他們這些先進製程來說，其良率有沒有辦法到達像臺灣這樣子？以及未來我們怎麼樣能夠把台積電的根留臺灣呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在在Arizona裡面，因為還有滿多台積電在臺灣的同事去把它的良率不斷的做改善、提升，現在它的4奈米部分已經跟臺灣的4奈米製程的良率是差不多的，就是說，經過改善，當然會達到臺灣的水準，但是要超越臺灣其實是有難度的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有難度嗎？是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：當然有難度。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我要再請問，目前臺灣對美的出口是1,163億美元，其中我們的貿易順差是739億美元，這裡面有沒有包含臺灣對美的軍購？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有報紙說，如果越南透過軍事採購來降低他們對美的關稅，我們有沒有可能……"],["郭部長智輝：這樣子喔，報告委員……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們有沒有可能加大對美軍事的採購？"],["郭部長智輝：現在是這樣，你如果透過民間去採購軍品，就是透過美國的海關，那就會算，你如果透過美國的政府，就不透過海關，就不算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我當然說的是國防部的軍購。"],["郭部長智輝：如果是透過美國政府買來的軍購是有保障的，透過民間買來的軍購是沒保障的，這個就是抉擇的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，不是，我講的是未來我們整個關稅的談判上面，如果我們加大對美的軍購，有沒有辦法能夠降低關稅？越南已經在做了嘛！越南有可能會加大對美的軍購嘛！既然你說我們的軍購不算在我們順差的數字裡面，會不會有可能我們要加大軍購？加大多少？"],["郭部長智輝：其實我們買很多的軟體，美國都沒有算在關稅上面……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你這一次的談判裡面會不會有？"],["郭部長智輝：在談判的時候我們都會跟美國溝通，不能夠只從名目上面的關稅資料、關稅的紀錄來談出超、入超，但因為美國要解決的問題不是只有貿易逆差的問題，他還要解決很多譬如金融上面失衡的問題，還有他要讓美國再度偉大，製造空洞化的問題。所以我想我們的談判小組，他們會針對所有美國關心的命題，一一地去跟它談判，這不是只有單獨一個所謂貿易失衡的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以軍購也是有可能？"],["郭部長智輝：那個都是可以談的一個項目。"],["謝委員衣鳯：而且按照你說的，不一定是真的軍購嘛！可能從軟體數字之類的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：軟體是不計關稅，這個很慘。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以也不算在那個數字裡面，在我們所謂順差的數字裡面。"],["郭部長智輝：你看看，我們跟美國買那麼多軟體！"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以未來希望我們能夠加大，就是把所有對我們有利的關稅條件都拿去談，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝衣鳯召委。","我們下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160510","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160510","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc09b4c8920d35c963116f08763592c0c249a3354dc8dbd3a62b8c40d3938d270f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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海人之島是展這個達烏族夏曼蘭博安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片那這個計畫其實我們整整支持了三年那終於在今年完成做這個展出"},{"start":152.674,"end":180.042,"text":"那另外就是說我們其實跟這個海外藝文機構合作的包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫像布拉瑞昂啊 阿仁仁啊還有吳玉玲老師的展啊參加雪梨雙年展啊還有馬來西亞的那個JOJO藝術節啊還有桑布依啊這些其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關的作品的展出計畫尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行那也是很亮點的一個部分"},{"start":180.342,"end":199.027,"text":"所以謝謝次長意思就是說這24個國際展當中至少目前已經有兩個展跟原住民相關的展對我可以再去盤一下但我至少記憶中這兩個是一樣給我報告好嗎好的那為什麼我關心這個因為我們都知道原住民族博物館它其實在2032年要即將開館"},{"start":203.348,"end":228.295,"text":"那今年初剛剛成立籌備處已經開始在運作但是呢它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題那這個文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論因為我們都知道博物館它其實也是一個殖民的一個遺序那我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情"},{"start":228.855,"end":247.135,"text":"那好比像這個紐約客雜誌的這個漫畫他就是在嘲諷你看這個導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳我們要前往下一個就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳"},{"start":249.858,"end":268.529,"text":"所以這個當中其實它展現了很多很多的意思有沒有一種炫耀有沒有一種呈現文化有高有低那為什麼有的是偷來的其實可能是掠奪而來的那有的是我們願意國家政府編很多的錢去花錢買來的那這樣的一個掠奪來的偷來的文物"},{"start":272.751,"end":292.244,"text":"我們願不願意返還還是覺得食之無味 棄之可惜那為什麼我這樣講 舉個例子像我們看到在台大前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候他們做了一些範例像在2015年他們的第一個範例就是把"},{"start":292.884,"end":321.069,"text":"排灣族家平部落的四面祖靈柱他們所典藏的就是用一個結婚迎娶的方式就是留在台大博物館並不是文物返還那隔一年2016年呢他們又把另外一個地方來義鄉的旺家部落他們有一個雙面的祖靈柱他們用結拜的一個儀式把這個文物還是一樣留在台大並沒有做文物返還"},{"start":321.869,"end":340.819,"text":"那當然理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆濕可以足以保存的設備但是現在有了這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏式都已經做得非常好甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館其實也都做得很好所以我想要請教一下市長就是文化部"},{"start":343.26,"end":363.214,"text":"有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制因為我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150周年去年是150周年我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還"},{"start":364.395,"end":375.943,"text":"那像國外我們開始要去做這樣那文化部你們掌管全國的文化事務文化部到底有沒有這樣的一個文物返還的機制的思考"},{"start":377.383,"end":395.727,"text":"跟委員做報告陳柱委員所說的跟原住民相關的文物它的展出的脈絡跟歷史詮釋甚至比物件單純的展出來的更加的重要那至於委員提到的這個博物館返還部落的這個機制呢"},{"start":396.007,"end":412.524,"text":"我覺得目前其實是在討論中如果問說文化部有沒有規模性的計畫性的進行這類的返還目前並沒有這樣的計畫對於博物館來說它還是以它的保存展示述說詮釋研究為主那所以我們很落伍喔"},{"start":413.044,"end":436.019,"text":"但是如果有這樣的返還其實只要有人提出文化部的做法是針對的個案我們就會開始進行評估我們就可以看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適至少有沒有掌握到台灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏"},{"start":438.979,"end":459.399,"text":"好 沒有那至少要做調研好嗎委員因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來所以你看我後面沒有人是因為他的資料沒有準備在手上那為什麼沒有來因為你們今天有專報啊我們因為主要是海外的部分那所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個關係那沒有關係那次長我跟您說我們可以再做事後補充園民會"},{"start":460.68,"end":478.345,"text":"有委託一個楊正賢老師去做歐洲博物館的一個調研我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫漢堡它都有很多原住民的文物甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多"},{"start":479.626,"end":495.448,"text":"這當中不僅有原住民的文物他也發現到很多漢文物那管方也都表示他們很希望可以跟台灣這邊一起來協助他們也很重視我們在地的意見也很願意合作那這個我只是要提到說"},{"start":496.669,"end":519.501,"text":"這個返還的基礎就是要先做調研嘛要不然就像我剛才問您我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少可是我們可以看到在維也納你看這個泰雅族的被豬頭市或者是在柏林我們有看到泰雅族的獵首帶這些等等那像這樣子我們就是希望文化部可以支持台灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流"},{"start":523.523,"end":543.231,"text":"那這個當中其實我要講的就是說找不到計畫了我今天會來質詢就是好多人想做這些事情但是找不到計畫為什麼這樣說像文化部有一個補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動的處理要點裡面很多被推薦因為他都說要有展演"},{"start":544.051,"end":563.556,"text":"天啊 難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣的一個所謂的展演交流剛才說明這完全是誤解是不會是針對原住民要去做展演這個文化交流的目的因為他是做國際宣傳是做國際台灣文化推廣所以展演是他的要件好 那我請教次長"},{"start":570.478,"end":582.367,"text":"像這個是蘭嶼的平板舟如果他要去做國際的交流他一定要他所謂的展演是什麼就是展示出這個平板舟或者展示出這個紀錄那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目那我們還是專業的"},{"start":588.851,"end":603.463,"text":"對 那不是只要提就一定會有補助不然我們也不會有捷克的這一個補助它就是針對拼板周的展示而且這個拼板周事後還會被這個捷克的國立技術博物館來做收藏這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種"},{"start":606.946,"end":616.916,"text":"我們如果對國際交流沒有影響力如果他只是一個自己去而沒有對方的禮遇 沒有對方的接待沒有宣傳的管道沒有展演公開的機會我們就請向不及職權"},{"start":621.84,"end":636.108,"text":"我們所有原住民族我們要做文化交流充滿熱血熱情的這些文物也好表演團體也好都必須要受到文化部來給我們做指示來幫我們評分"},{"start":638.922,"end":653.252,"text":"跟委員報告不是委員剛剛問的是如果你要申請這一項交流補助計畫需要的要件我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助我們的條件是這樣那如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫不然布拉楊這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體所以次長這個就是我們所有文化團體所不滿意的地方因為你們有所謂的民心"},{"start":669.783,"end":676.728,"text":"你們認為出國過的那個才夠世界水準我覺得做一個文化部的態度不可以這樣我們的沃土是在台灣這片土地上但是不能夠去展現要吃過楊墨水才有水準"},{"start":687.475,"end":709.826,"text":"布拉洋當初也沒有出過國 就得到了補助你可以告訴我 除了布拉洛洋 你還能夠舉哪一些人可以 我們可以提供我們的名單我們有非常多原住民的團體 都非常精彩我們去年去巴黎 這個花蓮的團體 太古團體也都跟著我們出國所以次長您是說 這一些團體 您都知道是誰 妳都知道他們不入流"},{"start":710.606,"end":726.931,"text":"沒有 我說的是有已經在沒有出國的經驗下我的出國表演的我其實有好幾個案例包括我們想要去做小米的一個出版做策展但是我們多少個很重要的"},{"start":727.811,"end":753.95,"text":"可能都被你們的計畫都說沒有辦法找不到科目或者是不符合計畫我們還是必須用同一標準我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的而不是一個例外的標準當然不是例外的標準請委員理解大家都是站在同一個標準我們當然都能理解但是次長你現在的你的耳朵是沒有打開的喔我很打開我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵那您知道這一些有多少嗎"},{"start":756.431,"end":785.871,"text":"我們坐在這個位置上我們聽多少人的抱怨沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助但是他會一再的努力你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目沒有辦法補助你不符合裡面的要項那你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了也有很多文化團體有得到補助啊但當然也有沒有得到補助的這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然那次長我可以邀請您到辦公室我們一起來了解嗎"},{"start":787.012,"end":803.889,"text":"好如果委員有需要雖然這不是我非常需要我要跟委員說明這好沒問題只要委員有需要我們就是努力溝通好謝謝次長好那我就先暫時到這邊好謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員次長請回那我們現在休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時51分）謝謝主席，有請王次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。今天的專報我有看到你們特別提到在8月2號到8月20號，文化部會協助我們參加大阪的文化博覽會，你們說，要展現臺灣文化藝術的獨特性。其實在去年的8月我就今年度日本大阪世博能不能夠在臺灣館，不論是它的環境、展覽的內容、展售的商品還有它的表演團體的演出，能不能有原住民文化的呈現提問。所以我在這裡想要先請教一下，在被刪減2,000萬行銷費的狀況下，這一次文化部有沒有準備跟原住民族文化相關的內容？"],["王次長時思：一定有。跟委員報告，原住民文化是臺灣多元文化裡面一個非常重要的要素，所以所有出去的展演，要展現臺灣的多元性，一定會有原住民相關團體的表演，不管是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可不可以大概說一下怎麼規劃的？"],["王次長時思：不好意思，委員，因為我們現在正在簽訂團體合約，我們可以事後補充。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，就事後給我報告。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，一定有，因為他們的表現非常精彩，我們去年去巴奧也有好幾團都是跟原住民文化相關的團體，也獲得很大的好評。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長，規劃之後的內容麻煩給我一份報告。"],["王次長時思：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我在今天的業報同樣也看到，就是文化部支持博物館，然後以臺灣原生主題內容協助7個所屬博物館、5個公私立博物館、相關的民間團體要推動24項國際策展計畫。我想了解一下，這24項國際策展計畫大約有哪些主題？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，其實現在就在捷克，從4月15號開始到9月28號，有一個展是跟原住民相關的，是跟捷克國立技術博物館的合作──是「獵人之徑．海人之道」、是展達悟族夏曼．藍波安老師製作的拼板舟以及他的紀錄片。這個計畫其實我們整整支持了3年，終於在今年完成展出。另外，我們跟海外藝文機構合作的，包括補助原住民團體或者是相關的計畫，像布拉瑞揚、阿仍仍，還有武玉玲老師的展、參加雪梨雙年展，還有馬來西亞的喬治市藝術節，還有桑布伊。其實我們跟原住民團體或者是相關作品的展出計畫，尤其跟博物館的合作一直都有持續在進行，也是很有亮點的一個部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：意思就是說這24個國際展當中……"],["王次長時思：一定有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是至少目前已經有2個跟原住民相關的展？"],["王次長時思：對，我可以再去盤一下，但我至少記憶中這2個是很確定的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：一樣給我報告好嗎？"],["王次長時思：好的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我關心這個？因為我們都知道原住民族博物館即將在2032年開館，今年初剛剛成立籌備處，已經開始在運作。但是它面臨一個文物缺乏的問題，而文物缺乏的問題其實一直以來都在博物館中被討論，因為我們都知道博物館其實也是一個殖民的遺緒，我們也一直在討論解殖跟文物返還這件事情。好比像紐約客雜誌的漫畫就是在嘲諷，你看導覽解說員或老師帶著學生說：我們即將離開這個我們偷來別人文化的展廳，我們要前往下一個，就是我們花了很多錢買來的展廳。它其實展現了很多很多的意思，有沒有一種炫耀？有沒有呈現了文化的有高有低？為什麼有的是偷來的？其實更可能是掠奪而來的！有的是國家政府願意編很多的錢去花錢買來的。這樣的一個掠奪來的、偷來的文物，願不願意返還？還是覺得食之無味、棄之可惜？為什麼我這樣講？舉個例子，前幾年大家在討論文物返還的時候，臺大做了一些範例。在2015年，他們的第一個範例就是把典藏的排灣族佳平部落的四面祖靈柱，用結婚迎娶的方式留在臺大博物館，並不是文物返還；隔一年2016年，他們又把來義鄉望嘉部落的雙面祖靈柱，用結拜的儀式把這個文物一樣留在臺大，並沒有做文物返還。當然，理由可能會說因為你們沒有恆溫恆溼、足以保存的設備，但是現在有了，這幾年其實各個地方政府的典藏室都已經做得非常好，甚至原民會輔導的這一些文物館，其實也都做得很好。所以我想要請教一下次長，就是文化部有沒有這種國內博物館文物返還部落的機制？我自己前幾年為了牡丹社事件150週年，去年是150週年，我們在前幾年幫忙做了一件事，就是去把收藏在英國愛丁堡牡丹社事件的遺骨返還。國外部分我們開始要去做這樣的事，那文化部掌管全國的文化事務，文化部到底有沒有文物返還機制的思考？"],["王次長時思：跟委員做報告，誠如委員所說的，跟原住民相關文物的展出脈絡跟歷史詮釋，甚至比物件單純展出來更加重要。至於委員提到的博物館返還部落文物的機制，目前其實是在討論中，如果問說文化部有沒有規模性地、計畫性地進行這一類的返還？目前並沒有這樣的計畫！對博物館來說，還是以它的保存展示、訴說、詮釋、研究為主……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們很落伍？"],["王次長時思：但是如果有這樣的返還機制，只要有人提出，文化部的作法是針對個案我們就會開始進行評估。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就在這邊提出好不好？"],["王次長時思：可以，看有哪些物件是有這樣的需求或者部落有這樣的意願……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：文化部會來協助？"],["王次長時思：我們會來評估看怎麼執行比較妥適。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長。文化部有沒有掌握到臺灣原住民族文物在國外博物館的典藏？沒有，至少要做調研，好嗎？"],["王次長時思：不是沒有，不好意思，委員，因為今天我們負責博物館的業務單位沒有來，所以你看我後面沒有人，是因為資料沒有準備在手上，我們是不是再事後補充？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼沒有來？因為你們今天有專報啊！"],["王次長時思：今天主要是海外的部分，所以並沒有把國內的博物館都找來，因為我們博物館一找來就會有十幾個館舍，我們可以再做事後補充。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，沒有關係。次長，我跟您說，原民會有委託楊政賢老師去做歐洲博物館的調研，我們看到在德國的柏林或者是萊比錫、漢堡，都有很多原住民的文物，甚至是在奧地利的維也納也都很多。這當中不僅有原住民的文物，他也發現到很多漢文物，館方也都表示，他們很希望可以跟臺灣一起協助，他們也很重視我們在地的意見，也很願意合作。我只是要說，返還的基礎就是要先做調研，要不然就像我剛才問您，我們可能也不清楚我們到底有多少。可是在維也納，我們可以看到泰雅族的貝珠頭飾；在柏林有看到泰雅族的獵首袋這些等等，像這樣子，我們就是希望文化部可以支持臺灣原住民族博物館跟國際民族博物館做文物交流，問題是找不到計畫！我今天會來質詢，就是好多人想做這些事情，但是找不到計畫！為什麼這樣說？像文化部有一個「文化部補助文化團體及個人從事文化交流活動處理要點」，很多申請案被退件，因為都說要有展演，天啊，難道我們原住民的交流已經被刻板印象化定著在一定要去做這樣一個展演？所謂的展演交流……"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，這完全是誤解，這不是針對原住民要求要去做展演，因為這個文化交流的目的是做國際宣傳、是去國際做臺灣文化推廣，所以展演是它的要件，這跟原住民文化沒有關係。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我請教次長，螢幕上這個是蘭嶼的拼板舟，如果它要去做國際的交流，所謂的展演是什麼？"],["王次長時思：它有展演啊，就是展示出這個拼板舟或者展示出這個紀錄，現在就有啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那為什麼會沒有辦法獲得補助？"],["王次長時思：應該是補助的內容跟補助的項目，我們還是專業的評審，並不是只要提出申請就一定會有補助，不然我們也不會有捷克的這個補助，它就是針對拼板舟的展示，而且這個拼板舟事後還會被捷克的國立技術博物館來收藏，這種計畫才是我們願意支持的計畫，它的影響會非常深遠。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們不願意支持的計畫是哪一種？"],["王次長時思：如果對國際交流沒有影響力，如果它只是自己去，沒有對方的禮遇、沒有對方的接待、沒有宣傳的管道、沒有展演公開機會，我們就傾向不支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，您這樣的說法是不是表示我們所有原住民族要做文化交流，充滿熱血、熱情的這些文物也好，表演團體也好，都必須要受到文化部給我們指示……"],["王次長時思：不是！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：來幫我們評分？"],["王次長時思：不是！跟委員報告，不是。委員剛剛問的是如果要申請這一項交流補助計畫所需要的要件，我只是回答如果您要申請這項補助，我們的條件是這樣，而……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果我們的熱情都被文化部打敗了呢？"],["王次長時思：事實上也證明有非常多的原住民團體跟研究得到了這一項交流計畫，不然布拉瑞揚這些團體不會在文化部的支持下成為這麼耀眼的團體。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以次長，這個就是我們所有文化團體不滿意的地方，因為你們有所謂的明星，你們認為出國過的才夠世界水準，我覺得文化部的態度不可以這樣……"],["王次長時思：不是，明星是培養出來的，不會天生就是明星……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們的沃土是在臺灣這片土地上……"],["王次長時思：所以要在臺灣耕耘……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是不能夠去展現，要吃過洋墨水的才有水準。"],["王次長時思：沒有，沒有這個限制，布拉瑞揚當初也沒有出過國就得到了補助，而是從培育，它可以培育出來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你可以告訴我，除了布拉瑞揚，你還能舉哪一些人為例？"],["王次長時思：可以，我們可以提供委員相關的名單，有非常多原住民的團體都非常精彩，我們去年去巴黎，花蓮的太鼓團體也都跟著我們出去，他們也都從來沒有出過國……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以次長您是說，這些團體您都知道是誰，你都知道他們不入流？"],["王次長時思：沒有！我說的是在沒有出國的經驗下而出國表演的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不是只有這樣，我其實有好幾個案例……"],["王次長時思：委員，請不要曲解我的意思，對原住民團體跟表演者的支持，文化部從來不落人後。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：包括我們想要做小米復育的出版及策展，但是我們多少個很重要的申請計畫，可能都被你們說沒有辦法、找不到科目或者是不符合計畫。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，我們還是必須用同一標準，我想原住民團體也希望跟大家的標準是同一的，而不是一個例外的標準，所以……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：當然不是例外的標準！"],["王次長時思：所以請委員理解，大家都是站在同一個標準。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們當然都能理解，但是次長，你現在的耳朵是沒有打開的喔……"],["王次長時思：我很打開，我希望委員也為我打開你的耳朵。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那您知道這一些有多少嗎？我們坐在這個位置上，我們聽到多少人的抱怨……"],["王次長時思：我們一樣有非常多的文化團體沒有辦法拿到文化部的補助，但是它會一再的努力，直到可以申請成功。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們總是告訴人家說找不到科目、沒有辦法補助、不符合裡面的要項……"],["王次長時思：不是找不到科目，是它有評審機制。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你這樣子把所有文化人的熱情都打消了。"],["王次長時思：沒有，也有很多文化團體有得到補助，但當然也有沒有得到補助的，這個是在補助獎勵的機制下出現的必然。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，我可以邀請您到辦公室，我們一起來了解嗎？"],["王次長時思：好，如果委員有需要，雖然這不是我……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我非常需要。"],["王次長時思：我要跟委員說明……好，沒問題，只要委員有需要，我們就是努力溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長。","我的質詢就先暫時到這邊，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，次長請回。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時14分）"],["主席（伍麗華Saidhai 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有請我們法務部部長好 請部長中選會好 中選會"},{"start":21.335,"end":49.673,"text":"委員早部長早還有我們中選會列席的一個官員今天我們召委排這個題目我倒覺得非常好非常好很多事情可以把它給講清楚但重點針對這一次我看全國各地好多地方在大罷免罷免憲法賦予老百姓這樣的一個權利憲法賦予老百姓的一個權利"},{"start":50.653,"end":59.596,"text":"但是如果是犯罪的話那反而也是法律可以我們整個主管機關他要主動依法偵辦的這樣的一個責任在民主它並不是一個道具你說死人他當然是不能去連署那造假完以後再去裝傻這個就有點莫名其妙了我看現在有這麼多的一個連署案的一個"},{"start":76.901,"end":96.069,"text":"造假案然後也已經我看現在幾件告發了41件41件告發了有的涉及到偽造甚至有的不乏出現冒用往生者簽名的荒謬的這樣的一個情節那我想本案最主要的一個發生的一個理由我相信"},{"start":99.395,"end":127.498,"text":"國民黨的委員在國民黨裡面多數比我們多了一席那再加台灣民眾黨那變成在國會就是多數那在政治攻防上到最後大家認為說老百姓受不了啦他想去發動這樣的一個罷免那當然是可以的是憲法賦予他的一個權利但是呢這個案子是怎麼來的呢大家再回想一下本案的一個癥結下一張我看一下就是說本來啊"},{"start":128.632,"end":136.379,"text":"在2025年3月17號的時候你看這個各大媒體就給你下個標尷尬了罷免案35比0國民黨慘被KO癥結啊整個社會會這麼紛亂就是從這邊來"},{"start":145.441,"end":151.605,"text":"你本來要發動罷免 中國國民黨你都懶惰嘛你可以罷免啊當初我在這個地方我就警告過囉我說要發動大罷免到最後就會變成一個大告發這個跟公投案不太一樣公投案是大家成案以後大家來投來表達你自己的一個主張有人去抄抄抄抄都很有可能可是你這個罷免案涉及到一個國會議員的政治生命的一個生死他當然跟你拼了你用偽造的一個方式他當然要給你告發"},{"start":176.294,"end":187.77,"text":"那在3月17號啊我看罷免案35比0 國民黨慘被KO以後呢國民黨在整個內部炸鍋了有要求朱立倫下台了 說你已經輸了三次了"},{"start":188.68,"end":208.131,"text":"然後呢 這個國民黨的戰鬥欄的你看這個趙少康先生就說以霸制霸行動已經化為笑話了這當然都是業餘你這個朱立倫嘛甚至張雅中講說大罷免的戰略錯誤朱延長任期幾個月也沒有用國民黨自己內部的壓力炸鍋以後呢無所不用其極啊無所不用其極啊我跟部長報告以我們現在台東來看的話"},{"start":218.494,"end":220.703,"text":"這種造假現在還在發生啊我們台東啊"},{"start":223.388,"end":244.714,"text":"從長濱到成功然後在整個海岸線因為有廠商要去設置這個風電他就必須要先上環境部網站裡面去做一個預告然後呢我們台東所有的立委全部都跳出來反對跳出來反對喔那有人就很聰明就假借說反對風電然後拿出來就是連署書簽下去簽下去這就是連署罷免不是要簽反風電"},{"start":249.375,"end":270.619,"text":"所以這個罷免裡面啊 這個千奇百怪 無所不用其極我記得我禮拜一舉過例子啊 就是說我們在整個刑法第210條 偽造文書這個部分五年以下有嫉妒刑 對不對那刑法第277條 那傷害罪 就拿刀在街上這樣砍人連續砍 我舉的例子說連續砍五個"},{"start":273.649,"end":277.773,"text":"再砍下去檢察官就受不了啦你要預防性當然到就會把他給羈押嘛這個都很合理嘛我再舉這個很淺顯的例子那你這種集團性的 你說一直讓你去偽造一直讓你去偽造 一直去偽造然後檢察官就說 啊我沒看見反正這政黨的事那我們要這個法律幹什麼所以我倒認為啊"},{"start":296.199,"end":307.369,"text":"這個冤有頭債有主啊中國國民黨到現在還沒有反省啊什麼到衝了別檢以後還有檢察官辦人賴清德下台你說什麼笑的"},{"start":308.956,"end":321.165,"text":"你們都說這個中國國民黨這麼多人去偽造利用要罷免一個人自己懶惰不用工亂抄死人也抄進去應該是講說政黨的負責人下台這樣才對又不是賴清德下令說叫你中國國民黨就趕快用偽造的一個方式所以本席都認為這樣的法務部這一次一個偵辦"},{"start":333.564,"end":352.908,"text":"不是說你們的職責所在,是你們不得不辦不對,你看看,你可以不辦這個是已經告發了一定要辦了嗎是啊,而且喔,還公訴罪咧他這個是,因為委員也是立法院中事,所以最近才修了選罷法九十八條之二嘛"},{"start":353.368,"end":369.153,"text":"要遏止這種造假的這些不好的不法的行為更明確嘛然後就才不會腐蝕民主政治的根基嘛道也未必131條講的是在講說新舊法的適用的問題啦你說如果是98條之二的話那個過程要件跟214條過程要件那又不一樣囉"},{"start":378.275,"end":383.877,"text":"那個選罷法98條之後的那個構成要件裡面那幾乎已經選罷法都已經變成危險犯了那個自身損害那個都全部拿掉了那可是呢 這因為在319之前這個案子就全部都適用舊法所以你當然要回歸到整個這整個刑法210條的一個規定還是用舊法嘛這個我就不在這邊做一個論斷但問題你們想想看啦我說這個問題嚴重性在什麼地方"},{"start":404.426,"end":431.67,"text":"我們二十年前把連續犯我們以前在讀書的時候還有連續犯連續犯加重其刑二分之一後來大家就認為修法就認為好像在鼓勵犯罪可是重點是你像這樣這種情況今天偽造個十份明天再偽造個十份後天再偽造個十份一直這樣偽造下去我們連續犯已經刪掉了二十年前已經刪掉了"},{"start":433.356,"end":459.356,"text":"我保證我不是這樣說你說通通不用判這也好奇怪啊當然你說到最後有基督刑你說是15年最多加重只能到20年多數訴罪兵法了不起判到30年宣告30年可是重點是說這個對社會上來講的話如果我連續這樣不斷的去犯罪然後只是因為政黨不反省到最後大家把整個隊伍拉到北檢來這也好奇怪"},{"start":461.994,"end":490.384,"text":"這也好奇怪,所以我請教中選會,中選會,好不好辦,就他們的管理一定要辦,是,地費你全部都刪除掉,我們要修憲,說人都不能罷免,斬草除根,不然就偽造文書的部分,全部都要抬掉,不可能嘛,不可能嘛,你們現在以現在來所謂的個案,是不是像各地建築都市裡面去告發?"},{"start":492.018,"end":510.652,"text":"我們是統一向最高檢去告發統一向最高檢告發 對你如果是原住民的部分 我要特別來請教原住民他是全國的全國的 那你們到底要向哪一個地檢來告發我們也是向最高檢向最高檢喔 是是那裏面你們最高檢要怎麼發"},{"start":512.469,"end":533.65,"text":"那個最高檢就把依照那個管轄權的那個就發交給各地檢署來偵辦因為那個最高檢是一個統合他是一個督導的一個督導的機關他是選罷的案件的督導機關所以他受理的他接到這些就會分給各地檢署可是幾乎每一個每一個各地檢署全部都有管轄權啊"},{"start":534.611,"end":557.902,"text":"因為它那個原住民的話你全國各縣市都有這部分它會由最高檢測最屬於管轄因素最多的地方來做一個管轄那就合理了 那就合理了那今天我請問警政署有沒有來警政署 啊 不好意思 警政署沒有來沒有來我就繼續問補廠 你有來來來來來補廠也看一看你給他看 我給你看一下這個"},{"start":565.779,"end":574.439,"text":"這個是 你們都有看嘛 那個豬肋龍我都長大了 我也看了幾十年了這都熟悉熟悉 平常不熟 剛才那個做布袋的 這些都弄回去"},{"start":576.564,"end":596.342,"text":"我才會這樣 跑去北檢 警方七度舉牌那我們現在就是說 我們只要這種違法的集會遊行 倒也不是馬上就宣告他違法我們會警告他嘛 說你解散 解散就沒問題如果不是 我把你三次舉牌 命令你解散沒有 你就犯罪了 感謝你說"},{"start":599.512,"end":614.943,"text":"包委員 這個部分可以由現場的指揮官 按照現場的狀況來判斷是啦 留給你們一個判斷的空間是好事嘛 畢竟衝擊到整個社會秩序嘛那我再來看一下內府的 你們這是在走什麼啊這幾個人而已 你們自己走 你們的行為違法"},{"start":622.375,"end":631.539,"text":"這樣是什麼意思 我就看不懂我就不曉得你們那個執法執法我們都一定尊重現場現場的指揮官但問題像這一種現在是"},{"start":635.014,"end":660.797,"text":"引起不必要的一個民怨那依法行政跟依法執法這當然都是公務體系的一個基本的一個原則啦那但是呢 我們是不是也應該去盤點喔就像整個全國集會遊行的一個執法的一個SOP啦你針對這些非禁制區本來在法院 在地檢署各法院這是法律明文規定 這是不可以讓集會遊行的喔"},{"start":663.349,"end":687.555,"text":"這個案子因為一線的同仁 這個比較沒有經驗那這個部分警政署我們會來檢討 也會就以後相關的執法來訂出一個標準之後 然後也來做教育我要說的就是說像這種不是禁制區 靜態的小規模的你應該更要去研擬一致性的舉牌或者介入的一個標準你們這些都訓練到不夠清楚啦 但是你還縮長帶長的"},{"start":690.256,"end":708.685,"text":"這個就讓我覺得很莫名其妙除非那個地方是一個交通繁忙的一個要塞的地方說好多人要去上班啊你們在這個地方喊罷免影響到整個交通了我這個時候我如果警察沒有適度的去介入的話那反而是失職啊可是這就很明顯的你會覺得莫名其妙他如果站在店館這裡你就去放他照就好你就走一個白海大廈大廢周章我認為這個要檢討"},{"start":719.911,"end":741.264,"text":"這個部分警政署會 我們會來做指引啦 我不認為那個所長這樣的起心動念是不對啦有人檢舉了嘛 因為我沒來了之後大家說全部都偏袒這些反對國民黨的人 這也不對執法當然要有一個一致性嘛 可是你這個有點讓人家感覺莫名其妙 死的人在那"},{"start":745.112,"end":765.502,"text":"你這樣去就叫他解散 委員會遊行你在地檢署 人們走走的 因為他比較大咖比較大咖 這另外的一個考量也沒有不對不想讓他產生那麼大的社會的衝擊 可以接受跟兩鄉做比較的話 只要叫你走到後 會把你抓了啦這個我覺得要有一定的一個指引 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時50分）謝謝召委，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有中選會。"],["主席：好，中選會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長早，還有中選會列席的官員。今天召委排這個題目，我倒覺得非常好，很多事情可以把它給講清楚，但重點是針對這一次，我看全國各地好多地方在大罷免，罷免是憲法賦予老百姓的一個權利，但如果是犯罪的話，反而法律課以主管機關要主動依法偵辦這樣的責任。民主並不是一個道具，死人當然是不能去連署，造假完以後再去裝傻，這就有點莫名其妙了，現在有這麼多連署案的造假案，我看現在有幾件告發了，41件嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：41件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：41件告發了，有的涉及偽造，甚至不乏出現冒用往生者簽名的荒謬情節。我想本案最主要發生的原因是，國民黨的委員在立法院裡面多數，比我們多了一席，再加上台灣民眾黨，在國會就變成是多數，在政治攻防上，到最後大家認為老百姓受不了了，他想去發動罷免，那當然是可以的，是憲法賦予的權利，但是這個案子是怎麼來的呢？大家再回想一下本案的癥結，本來在2025年3月17號的時候，你看各大媒體就下標「尷尬！罷免案35：0！國民黨慘被KO」，整個社會會這麼紛亂就是從這邊來，你本來要發動罷免中國國民黨，你就懶惰嘛！你可以罷免啊，當初我在這個地方就警告過了，我說要發動大罷免，到最後就會變成大告發。這跟公投案不太一樣，公投案是成案以後，大家來投，來表達你自己的主張，有人去抄、抄、抄、抄，都很有可能；可是罷免案涉及一個國會議員政治生命的生死，他當然跟你拚了，你用偽造的方式，他當然要告發你。在3月17號，我看罷免案35比0，國民黨慘被KO以後，國民黨整個內部炸鍋了，有要求朱立倫下臺的，說他已經輸了3次了，然後國民黨戰鬥藍的趙少康先生就說以罷制罷行動已經化為笑話，這當然都是揶揄你朱立倫嘛；甚至張亞中說大罷免的戰略錯誤，朱延長任期幾個月也沒有用。國民黨自己內部的壓力炸鍋以後，無所不用其極，無所不用其極！","我跟部長報告，以我們現在臺東來看，這種造假現在還在發生，我們臺東從長濱到成功，整個海岸線，因為廠商要去設置風電，它就必須要先上環境部網站預告，我們臺東所有的立委全部都跳出來反對，有人就很聰明，就假借反對風電，然後拿出來就是連署書，跟他們說簽下去、簽下去，這就是連署罷免，而不是要簽反風電。所以在罷免活動裡面的現象千奇百怪，無所不用其極。我記得我禮拜一舉過例子，在刑法第二百一十條偽造文書的部分是規定五年以下有期徒刑；刑法第二百七十七條傷害罪，拿刀在街上這樣砍人，我舉的例子是連續砍5個，再砍下去，檢察官就受不了了，要預防當然就會把他給羈押，這都很合理，我就舉這個很淺顯的例子。那這種集團性的，你說一直讓你去偽造，一直讓你去偽造、一直去偽造，然後檢察官說我沒看見，反正這是政黨的事，那我們要這個法律幹什麼？","所以我倒認為冤有頭、債有主，中國國民黨到現在還沒有反省，衝了北檢以後，檢察官辦人，他們還說什麼賴清德下臺，說那什麼瘋話？為什麼不說中國國民黨這麼多人去偽造，要罷免一個人，自己懶惰、不用功、亂抄，死人也抄進去，應該是說政黨的負責人下臺，這樣才對，又不是賴清德下令，叫你中國國民黨趕快去用偽造的方式。所以本席認為法務部這一次偵辦，不是說你們的職責所在，你們是不得不辦。部長，以你的看法，你們可以不辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這已經告發了，一定要辦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊，而且這還是公訴罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為立法院也很重視，最近才修了選罷法第九十八條之二，就是要遏止這種造假的、這些不好的、不法的行為，更明確，才不會腐蝕民主政治的根基。"],["莊委員瑞雄：倒也未必，第一百三十一條是在說新舊法的適用問題，你如果說是第九十八條之二的話，那個構成要件跟第二百一十條的構成要件又不一樣了，選罷法第九十八條之二的構成要件，幾乎在選罷法裡面都已經變成危險犯了，「致生損害」都全部拿掉了。可是因為在319之前，這些案子全部都適用舊法，所以當然要回歸刑法第二百一十條的規定，還是用舊法，這個部分我就不在這邊論斷。你們想想看，我說這個問題嚴重性在什麼地方？20年前，我們以前在讀書、在當律師的時候還有連續犯的規定，連續犯是加重其刑二分之一，後來大家修法時就認為這好像在鼓勵犯罪，但重點是，像這種情況，今天偽造個10份，明天再偽造個10份，後天再偽造個10份，一直這樣偽造下去，連續犯的規定在20年前已經刪掉了，部長，不是這樣說嗎？如果說通通不用辦，這也好奇怪，到最後如果有期徒刑是15年，最多加重只能到20年，數罪併罰也了不起判到30年、宣告30年。但重點是，對社會上來講，如果連續這樣不斷去犯罪，只因為政黨不反省，大家把整個隊伍拉到你們北檢來，這也好奇怪。","我請教中選會，法務部辦，是他們的權力，一定要辦，除非全部都把它刪除掉，我們修憲說人都不能罷免，斬草除根，不然就是偽造文書的部分全部都把它刪掉，這不可能嘛！以現在所謂的個案，是不是都是你們向各地檢署去告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們是統一向最高檢去告發。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果是原住民的部分，我要特別來請教，原住民是全國選區的，你們到底要向哪一個地檢告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們也是向最高檢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，這樣最高檢要怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最高檢就依照管轄權發交給各地檢署偵辦，因為最高檢是一個統合、督導的機關，是選罷案件的督導機關，所以它受理、接到這些就會分給各地檢署來辦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是幾乎各地檢署全部都有管轄權，因為原住民的話是全國各縣市都有。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分會由最高檢擇管轄因素最多的地方管轄。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那就合理了。","請問警政署今天有來嗎？不好意思，警政署沒有來，我就繼續問部長。喔！你有來，來、來、來，部長也看一下，我給你看一下這個，朱立倫……我在政壇也看幾十年了，這些都是大家認識也都面熟的，剛才那個做布袋戲的謝龍介不知道跑到哪裡去了，差不多這樣，他們跑去北檢，警方7度舉牌。現在就是說，對於這種違法的集會遊行，倒也不是馬上就宣告他們違法，我們會警告他們，並告知他們要解散，如果他們解散就沒事了，如果不解散就會舉牌3次，命令他們解散，如果沒有解散，那就犯罪了，是不是這樣？"],["范組長織坤：報告委員，這個部分可以由現場的指揮官按照現場的狀況來判斷。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，留給你們一個判斷的空間是好事嘛，畢竟衝擊到整個社會秩序。我們再來看一下內湖的例子，你們這是在舉怎樣的？這才幾個人而已，你們就去跟他們說這樣的行為違法，這樣是什麼意思，我看不懂，我就不曉得你們執法的標準為何。對於執法，我們一定都是尊重現場的指揮官，但問題像這一種，實在是引起不必要的民怨。","依法行政跟依法執法當然都是公務體系的一個基本原則，但我們是不是也應該要去盤點全國集會遊行執法的SOP？針對這些非禁制區，本來在法院、地檢署、各法院，法律明文規定這裡不讓民眾集會遊行，是不是這樣？"],["范組長織坤：關於這個案子，一線的同仁比較沒有經驗，這個部分我們警政署會檢討，也會就爾後相關的執法訂出一個標準並且教育。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要說的是，像這種不是禁制區，靜態的、小規模的，你更應該去研擬一致性的舉牌或者介入標準。你們這些都訓練得不夠清楚，這是所長帶隊去的，這個就讓我覺得很莫名其妙，除非那裡是一個交通繁忙、要塞的地方，有很多人要去上班，你們在這個地方喊罷免，影響到整個交通，這個時候如果警察沒有適度去介入的話，那反而是失職，可是這個就很明顯的，你會覺得很莫名其妙，他如果是站在上面這裡，你去勸他走就好了，結果你就舉一個牌子、大費周章，我認為這個要檢討。"],["范組長織坤：這個部分我們警政署會檢討。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們要有一個指引啦！我不認為那個所長這樣起心動念是不對的，有人檢舉了，如果他沒去，等一下有人可能會說，全部都偏袒這些反對國民黨的人，這也不對，執法當然要有一致性，可是你這個作法有點讓人家感覺莫名其妙，4個人在那裡，你這樣去叫他解散、認為違反集會遊行的規定，而他在地檢署號召人，因為他比較大咖，比較大咖就做另外的考量也沒有不對，不想讓他產生那麼大的社會衝擊，這個可以接受，可是兩相比較的話，這些被你舉牌的人就會罵你們了。這個部分我覺得要有一定的指引，好不好？謝謝。"],["范組長織坤：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0f23123b1c8c38cc84d63fb5309bb2e639a3354dc8dbd3a62b44aa4b1a787b5ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:34:30 - 10:49:20","影片長度":"00:14:50","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 【4月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-23","start_time":"2025-04-23T10:34:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-23T10:49:20+08:00","duration":890,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[],"whisperx":[]},"gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時34分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你好。部長，你知道美國貿易代表署針對臺灣的部分有提及我方的幾項措施，包含落實豬肉產品原產地標示，對於進口的豬肉實施萊克多巴胺最高殘留容許值，或禁止在學校餐點使用生技食品原料等等，他們為以上種種規定的科學基礎感到擔憂。換句話說，未來我們無論用任何方式的禁用或者是特別標註產地來源，是不是都會成為非關稅貿易障礙？部長，是不是認同這的確是非關稅貿易障礙之一？"],["邱部長泰源：我想關稅的談判是相當複雜，但是站在衛福部的立場，一定是以食安優先，我們一定會把關國人的食品安全，希望建立一個食在安心的環境。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長可以在這裡宣示嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不管是豬肉或牛肉的原產地標示，一體適用在國產及輸入豬肉、牛肉的產品。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你可以向國人保證一定會堅守嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這就是衛福部和食藥署一直堅持的原則，而且最重要的是要根據科學分析，我們要秉持著科學跟專業的態度來訂定安全合理的管理規範，同時，我們會比照國際的標準。"],["廖委員偉翔：在美方的強力施壓之下，你一定可以堅持，對不對？堅守至少產地一定要標示清楚，可以嗎？部長，可以宣示嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們會朝這方面來……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你感覺沒有很肯定。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，我還是要重申，我們一定會顧及到全體國人，會堅持維護國人的食品安全。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為美豬、美牛……"],["邱部長泰源：而且要根據科學分析及國際標準，這是我們一定要堅持的。"],["廖委員偉翔：但我們很擔心，就你們這段時間的狀況以看，感覺這些標準好像一再地退讓，我們很擔心你們擋不住美國的壓力，為什麼這麼說？我剛剛有提到美豬、美牛的問題，在美牛的部分，報告中也點出臺灣自2021年起解除30月齡以上牛隻和牛製品的進口禁令，但尚未解決其他長期障礙，像以狂牛症為由，禁止進口美牛絞肉，或是對部分美牛內臟產品祭出繁瑣且非基於科學證據的進口檢查，包含美方也敦促臺灣，希望我們可以依據有關的指導方針，全面開放美牛市場，目前韓國也面臨類似的壓力。","同樣地，食藥署署長在3月上任的時候就預告要修正「日本牛肉及其產品之進口規定」草案，要取消30個月齡以下的牛隻才可以進口的限制，擬開放全牛齡的日本牛肉進口，一個是日本、一個是美國，但是民間的養殖業者和消基會都認為這件事情有風險而表達反對。所以我剛剛講的就是，從你們實際做出來的這些作為，讓我們擔心這個標準好像一再地放寬，有沒有可能就真的守不住？我剛剛問部長，你的回答也讓我有點擔心，好像有一點不是很肯定，可以為我們的國人把關，而且美方看起來也已經講得很明白，對我們也產生一些壓力。我其實想要問部長，可不可以在這裡跟國人保證，你一定可以堅守？我簡單跟你講，像日本也在首輪跟美國談完了，面對美國點名各類產品希望增加進口量，日本的經濟大臣只是簡單地表示請美方列出優先順序，而不是全盤接收。可是目前看起來，我們國家的行政部門在面對美國提出的條件，讓國人擔心你們都會全盤接收，日本首相石破茂也霸氣表示「政府絕不會讓步食安，政府必須要保護日本國民的安全」，所以我現在把日本首相的話提供給你借鏡。我想要問部長，你有沒有一樣的guts，讓我們國人覺得在你的保護之下，我們的食安很安全？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我想我已經至少三次以上在這裡提到……"],["廖委員偉翔：對！肯定一點，部長，拜託！"],["邱部長泰源：我們衛福部跟食藥署絕對會堅守維護國人，雖然我沒有日本首相那麼偉大，但是他的態度……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，態度拿出來，部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們完全跟他一致。"],["廖委員偉翔：一致，好，拜託你。"],["邱部長泰源：我們跟他一致。"],["廖委員偉翔：國人的食品安全不能被出賣，好不好？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：食安不能退讓、不能讓步。"],["廖委員偉翔：不能被出賣、不能退讓。","再來，我就要問醫院資安的問題，今年沒有過半，許多醫院就已經產生資安或是資料外洩問題，還有之前的Crazy Hunter攻擊事件，衛福部也列出很多的改善措施，可是在我看完之後，還是感覺有很多是事後補救措施，而事前預防的部分也都是老調重談，剛剛有幾位委員也都很擔心這部分，到底你們有沒有正式或者更具體的方式去解決？看起來好像沒有解決，很擔心在下個月會不會又來一起事件，所以我這裡想要問一下部長，你知不知道什麼是軟體物料清單（SBOM）？"],["邱部長泰源：我有聽說過，但是可能不是說完全瞭解內容，請委員指教一下。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒問題。你不曉得，對不對？剛剛其實很多委員問到類似的東西，我跟你簡單地說一下，軟體物料清單（SBOM）就是一份列出醫療設備中所使用的軟體組件清單，有助於識別和管理潛在的網路安全風險，對於保障醫療設備的安全性和患者的安全都是至關重要，這個東西大概是這個概念。醫療設備現在都有包含大量的軟體，不管是專有軟體或是開源軟體，剛剛大家也一直在討論美國開源軟體使用的錯誤，所有軟體都有可能成為風險來源，包含你們也有很多的東西是外包的，會不會是來自於那裡，你們也不敢保證，說大機率可能是，就是這樣子的一份清單，如果沒有好好地去做的話，就會不知道從哪裡出了狀況，而且現在很多的軟體本身也會隨著時間老化，可能不再支援，因此，醫療設備軟體供應鏈的紀錄跟共享，我想對於監管機關、對於政府或對於使用者、病患，或是其他相關的利益關係人，包含病患、醫院方、政府單位，可以說是SBOM這個軟體的生產履歷、供應鏈的履歷清單，所以部長可以理解這是什麼東西了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝指教，這樣我更加瞭解了。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，美國FDA的資安計畫中，其實他就有用SBOM，就是軟體物料清單標準的強調，他就說資安就是病人安全，因為一旦這個設備遭到入侵，可能會直接影響醫療服務的提供，所以我們今天講這個也不是單純所謂資安的問題，它也有可能會導致包含醫院被癱瘓，這其實是總結美國曾經多次發生重大的醫療資安事件的血淚經驗。我舉個例，包含勒索軟體攻擊導致全美約有40間醫院的放射治療延後數週，這個其實是很誇張的事情，部長，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：它導致病患直接的權利受損，先不說醫院有什麼損失，搞不好因為這幾週的時間，就有多少病人因此過世。同樣的衛福部在馬偕醫院的檢討報告中有提到，對於醫療設備資安防護的薄弱，本部已經成立OT防護基準的研修小組，並發布醫療領域的OT防護基準，且資安攻防演練也加入了醫療儀器的受害情境。就像我剛剛說的，你們講了這麼多，可是對於剛剛我們提到的簡單概念，我不曉得你們是不是有做或是理不理解？如果沒有意識到軟體供應鏈的問題和風險管理不足的話，其實你後面那些作為都是亡羊補牢，當然沒有辦法做到全方位的資安管控，對不對？所以我國的醫院是不是可能尚未充分地重視，或者衛福部也不瞭解，因為剛剛問了，你們不瞭解，你們應該要充分地重視醫療設備和相關系統的軟體供應鏈的安全，而且你們目前是沒有辦法即時掌控和應對供應鏈中的漏洞，我們是不是應該要從源頭把這個東西盤點好？政府應該要重視這件事情，並且你們要怎麼樣去幫助我們的醫療體系去做這件事情？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。我認為委員質詢得非常地專業跟深入，我想FDA在這個部分應該是有相當的掌控，資訊處應該也非常地瞭解，所以不是說我們衛福部，我們各有所長，可不可以容許處長回應一下？"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，我繼續講完，因為我看到處長在點頭，你們應該是沒有採用這個東西吧？SBOM？"],["李處長建璋：這個比較是FDA的業管。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，我現在要講的事情是，其實不只是這個東西，你不能夠說他們的標準你不採納，這個東西就是拿出來給你參考，你們應該要去重視這件事情，其實你不能夠說只有FDA，就不適用臺灣。因為事實上衛福部食藥署在112年也成為國際醫療器材主管機關論壇的會員，簡稱IMDRF，它的SBOM，就是剛剛說的軟體物料清單的概述中也有說明，他們採取FDA對於SBOM的要求標準，也就是說這種標準，其實你參加這個組織，當然可以看到未來擴大採用裡面相關的知識或標準，應該是一個趨勢，是不是？所以是不是應該要在這個部分請你們特別的努力，因為我們在這裡討論到這件事情，也可以看到我們剛剛有討論到的次世代數位醫療平台計畫。本席在上一個會期審預算的時候，就有跟你們說過，當初我們也對這個部分有質疑，你們會不會為了做而做，你們到底有沒有執行好？我們就問你們經費有沒有浮濫，你們有沒有重視、抓到重點？你們後來跟我說明會好好地執行，因此，我後來也同意那就不凍刪，可是從這段時間不斷發生這些事情，我就覺得是不是衛福部應該要好好瞭解一下狀況和精進？部長，我知道你突然不知道要講什麼，是不是？"],["李處長建璋：我想這個是在這個計畫裡面要跟世界接軌，用很多開源軟體，的確國內及工研院在開源軟體的知識有所不足，所以我們對這次事件會深切地檢討去精進，但是整個執行成果可以告訴委員，從各界好幾輪的委員，還有外界都認為現在的執行成效良好，國科會也甚至要求我們把執行的成果拍成國家宣傳影片，所以在成果的部分，目前是有達到預期的，但是在過程中遇到了一些瑕疵，我們會去檢討來改進。"],["廖委員偉翔：處長，這個成果我可能不敢苟同，因為每個月都有所謂的資安事件發生，我覺得不能夠用這個角度，自己一直去覺得沾沾自喜，剛剛說了，美國已經經歷很多次這樣的攻擊，也導致了很多病患權益受損。在這個領域上面，我想資安的問題和駭客的侵擾，不會等你的制度跟上，或者是好幾次委員會大家覺得表現得很棒，對於醫院的資安和國人醫療個資的問題，衛福部自己也說這有系統性的問題，所以我說這個東西我們刻不容緩，包含這次的事件，工研院用別人的開源，然後沒有標註從哪裡來，你只是簡單說我補上去就好，這就是我剛剛說的為什麼你的SBOM軟體物料清單沒有管理好會發生的問題，因為你不知道你用的這些東西是從哪裡來的，它本身有沒有漏洞；未來它發生漏洞的時候，你也不知道從哪裡去找它的漏洞，或者是美國這個東西發生漏洞的時候，你這裡不知道你是引用它的，所以連帶的你的資料也會被人家駭，你懂我意思嗎？所以部長，針對我國醫療機構導入或是你要怎麼輔導或是你要用什麼資源去幫助他們使用FDA的SBOM（就是軟體物料清單）基準的可行性評估，或者是你們怎麼精進這方面的作為，是不是可以回去在一個月內給我們相關的檢討報告？一個月可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的、好的。我想這個有必要，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。我們現在休息10分鐘，中午不休息。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","葛如鈞","劉建國","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","黃秀芳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","陳菁徽","盧縣一","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","楊曜","陳瑩","林楚茵","林德福"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00004"}}},{"id":"160507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc016d35eaf238584b49ac021369aff85ba87b5e96e7cd6ee728e7165f4ad3413885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:39:25 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部長早安首先先請教部長因為有看到相關的新聞特別提到軍方有新聞要增掉宮廟我想請教部長我們增掉宮廟的目的是什麼因為之前大家很擔心是要放那個彈藥嘛那在近期又有新聞去增掉宮廟是不是部長可以說明一下這個我"},{"start":42.338,"end":62.395,"text":"我想我也是看了那個文以後我才知道那我有跟陸軍了解他應該是要作為這個他們在這個戰備演訓的時候作為人員休息場所的使用但是那個韓文我覺得寫的內容寫的不是很清楚"},{"start":63.275,"end":69.101,"text":"造成誤解 我覺得這個要求陸軍要做檢討部長 因為您是人權律師那在法的部分 尤其在國際法裡面如果對於宗教的這些場域去作這樣軍事不管你放彈藥也好 放軍事人員也好其實它都會有違反兩公約的這樣的疑慮"},{"start":87.819,"end":91.18,"text":"因為對全世界來說你宗教的一個場所其實它包括戰爭的時候像醫院我們如果人民百姓當你的房子被炸或者你有需要有一個棲身之地的時候像這些宗教場所或者像醫院其實就是人民可以去的地方或者它就是不該被攻擊的地方可是我們今天如果把它混在一起會讓大家無所適從"},{"start":114.265,"end":117.767,"text":"這個部分我想國防部有必要清楚的說明你即使是休息你都應該清清楚楚的讓大家知道因為過去其實在過去的那個時間點其實大家都沒有太大的疑慮可是現在在這麼緊張的情況之下隨時好像"},{"start":133.315,"end":136.58,"text":"要做城鎮站的這種打算那大家就會希望其實應該要把它說明清楚大家應該要怎麼去因應或者應該怎麼對怎麼去做所以部長您這個部分是他們的說明是要做休息的處所"},{"start":150.429,"end":174.079,"text":"對 他們主要是要做那個人員的休息那這樣會不會對這樣造成疑慮因為你畢竟是軍人嘛就是這樣的部分你會不會造成像國際法裡面跟委員報告我想日內瓦公約的那個第一附加一定書它所謂禁止供給的是指對於構成各國人民文化或精神遺產的禮拜場所啦並不是"},{"start":175.019,"end":188.828,"text":"我想所有的這些您講的這些地點都構成這個所謂的因為它禮拜的場所我們跟其他國家也不太一樣可是我們的宗教的場所因為你所有的宮廟或寺廟全部都是一樣它就涵蓋這樣的一個稱呼裡面那你如果可以增掉一個那你其他的也可以這個部分我們認為應該要說明清楚對不對如果以部長您的看法就法的觀點"},{"start":202.737,"end":203.919,"text":"是不是應該要把它弄清楚因為我們在前年有修過一個法如果我們不管是公廟不管是學校他如果被"},{"start":215.635,"end":237.815,"text":"拿來使用比如說像你們用的爭調這樣子的一個字眼他就視同營區耶所以他的管理當時有提到如果視同營區就是你在營區裡面可以做的如果有人有做過什麼樣的行為舉動你都可以用那種強制的手段這個部分我們希望部長要把它理清楚好不好"},{"start":240.209,"end":262.741,"text":"委員好,我是法律司司長,委員講的應該是軍事營區安全條例的原案規範沒關係,你幫他講就不要再講法,就是這個部分會不會造成這樣的狀況因為你已經修改了啊,但你就視同營區啊我跟委員報告,那個軍事營區安全條例裡面不是說我們所有的東西都立刻視為營區,它會有一些要件啦那另外跟委員報告,委員您關心的這個宮廟的問題,剛剛部長也有講"},{"start":265.322,"end":270.586,"text":"日內瓦公約的第一附加議定書不要跟我們講日內瓦公約是不是有這樣的疑慮因為我們現在提到的如果你在宗教上面你不是用字義啊因為我們的宗教信仰跟其他的不一樣他大概是用這樣的字面意義可是我們現在要知道的是這些會不會有你到時候存放彈藥或者是你軍人駐守在那裡那就是營區的概念了嘛會不會"},{"start":291.202,"end":305.205,"text":"報委員這個在我們颱風驚馬首次作戰那我們現在的整個在我們的這個環境上面有非常非常多的公廟那但是不能夠直接把這些的公廟那你應該講清楚你們應該講清楚因為要讓人民知道你既然把這個列為你未來適同營區你應該讓人民清清楚楚的知道不是嗎"},{"start":313.722,"end":323.028,"text":"對但是我們也沒有說立刻他就會視同營區那什麼時候他可能是我們要另外要做公告要預告不是說我們今天人到那邊休息他就變成營區了因為你就是在你就是漢光演習或其他的教召你就已經是視同營區了回去再把它看清楚這個部分因為時間的關係部長我們還是希望"},{"start":333.655,"end":336.696,"text":"我們任何的公文你發出去以後讓全體人民知道因為你又要大家配合然後你又要大家在各個方面去怎麼樣調度或者像我們在演練的時候應該要有什麼地方去做一個棲身的地方這些應該都要更清楚嘛"},{"start":354.082,"end":365.866,"text":"我想簡單兩句話 第一個就是說沒有因為人員休息而就失容營區這樣子這是第一個 第二個我想這個發函的這個內容的這個部分不進周詳這個部分我們會請陸軍監督改進"},{"start":369.687,"end":376.252,"text":"部長因為你如果是休息那你就把休息寫清楚因為這個差很多如果是這樣你寫清楚大家沒有其他的想像嘛好 謝謝那另外今天大家在討論近期發生執政黨內有爆發疑似共諜滲透案的這個部分那國安會的吳祕書長也有我想要請教的是"},{"start":392.643,"end":400.449,"text":"國安會的吳秘書長他在外交部長任內他有議事過長期隨身的機要助理何仁傑他會被滲透嗎執政黨有曾想過他這麼重要的幹部會被滲透嗎"},{"start":407.914,"end":430.643,"text":"當執政黨一直在針對我像我看有好多位的委員一直在針對你說像村里長像我們的在野黨委員或者像所有的立法委員甚至助理等等其實我們要做一些相關的一個規範或查核那這樣子的做法你們到底有什麼樣的看法請問委員是要詢問本部還是要"},{"start":437.878,"end":454.623,"text":"我們外交部外交部可以講一下嗎沒有我們那個就像我們剛才報告裡面一樣我們持續的在精進我們相關的人員保房的這個作為如何精進那麼我們第一個當然是教育宣導第二個是說我們這個是不是能夠建議這個"},{"start":459.486,"end":480.684,"text":"我們的行政院或者是把相關的辦法因應現在的一個狀況然後做一個通盤的檢討那麼提交這個櫃院然後能夠對於相關的規範包括機要人員的查核現在目前來說的話只有根據公務人員的公務員法我先請教一下啦因為你如果要"},{"start":481.204,"end":485.185,"text":"就要迅速的去調整外交部今天的報告仍然是避重就輕的因為依照國家機密保護法第26條第一項第二款將這些接觸機密事項的機要人員列為洩密人員這個本來就有法在規範了"},{"start":498.169,"end":508.515,"text":"外交部對於連剛進去的科員其實都是列為涉密人員可是對於那些機要人員大概就是輕輕的放下因為外交部新聞給調查局請調查局查核部長要用的機要人員調查局會說這個人不行嗎"},{"start":516.859,"end":524.546,"text":"因為我們現在沒有看到你機要人員法已經有了不是你說不是你剛剛說的說我們要怎麼樣再去做更強的或者把他納入查核在我們現有的第26條第一項第二款裡面已經有了可是你們並沒有這樣做尤其是部長帶進來的機要人員他的重要的貼身隨緣你們會這樣做嗎因為在2024年3月"},{"start":542.723,"end":548.17,"text":"吳部長就是吳秘書長已經要求這個何仁傑他必須要去職那時候有查查他有洩露什麼樣的機密才讓他去職嗎或者他很容易的就辭職了"},{"start":557.318,"end":585.305,"text":"那那個我們報告委員我們第一個是說對於機要人用機要的身份認用的我們都有特別查核那麼對於其他的人員我們會進行一般查核那麼至於說委員剛才提到的是說有關於這個這個核心的這個前任之意那麼為什麼在去年3月的時候被部長要求這個去職這個詳情我們因為我那個時候還沒有在部裡面服務並不了解我們請那個政風人員幫我們回答一下"},{"start":587.579,"end":604.127,"text":"報告委員 根據我們的了解 他不是被吳前部長要求離職的是他自己主動要 因為家庭的因素所以他那麼久的時間 沒有人發現他是可能蘆葦共諜了嘛 是不是"},{"start":604.827,"end":606.369,"text":"他去職他離職都沒有人發現沒關係那個後續他是被要求去職或者他自己自動離職這個我們再釐清喔這個因為今天時間的關係我為什麼要特別講是因為今天既然大家對於國安的這個"},{"start":622.984,"end":626.386,"text":"可能產生的疏漏那應該要怎麼樣去強化或怎麼樣去教育是每一個單位都要做到的因為部長您今天您身為國防部長就你剛上任的時候你開始提到你要用檢法的思維所以受到很多我們的軍事官兵大家非常的認同可是今天的報告裡面又提到似乎對於像一些主管館"},{"start":650.539,"end":669.063,"text":"你要做的又有要恢復連坐的這樣子的概念沒有不是連坐的概念我們是會就這個相關被滲透的這個責任的部分我們要來看看他有沒有一些相關的一些責任的疏失我想這個部分是不一樣"},{"start":671.844,"end":680.008,"text":"因為召喚人員他的召喚單位要依主官主管幕僚主管督導體系要強烈責任關係這個就是像過去的連坐啊那今天如果軍中要這樣做也沒有關係如果我們認為共諜是非常嚴重的像我們剛剛提到的非常多的我們的高層單位比如像外交部國安會像總統府其實這些也是非常重要的一個單位"},{"start":701.639,"end":710.201,"text":"像這樣子如果他下面包括他的的隨緣啊或者姿意啊發生這樣的事情那他們也需要連坐嗎因為有責任的歸屬啊人是誰帶進來的或者他是怎麼樣用這些人然後都沒有發現當你發生洩露這樣重要的機密的時候那他需要去做這樣子的責任的一個連帶的一個追究嗎"},{"start":729.066,"end":752.015,"text":"部長我想您對軍方有這樣子的要求如果是這樣那應該要全面性的就要這樣做我們主要是在他的行政管理面要看看他有沒有疏則而不是說一律的連坐這個部分先澄清一下那另外行政院我想就已經就我了解已經院長已經也要求這個行政院檢討全面的這些"},{"start":753.598,"end":769.051,"text":"會涉密公職人員要如何來進行這個查核這個部分我想因為有涉及到一些相關能量的問題就是說因為法務部調查局有沒有足夠的人員來做這樣子我想這個都還在等行政院來"},{"start":769.931,"end":775.533,"text":"來檢討這樣部長因為我在這裡要特別提醒就是說我剛剛提到的因為您上來以後你把連坐法檢法的思維讓大家覺得說這是非常好大家如果自己犯錯應該要自己去承擔所有的責任當然如果在行政上面有重大瑕疵那個沒有話講可是如果你是用連坐的這樣的概念那其實在所有的單位所有的"},{"start":796.338,"end":801.141,"text":"一些相關的部門其實都應該要有一致的作為那最後再一點點時間我再請教因為今天大家都說想要限制不管是立委也好或者像很多的村里長啦或者宗教人士等等其實本席也尊重也認同如果我們的像這樣子被滲透的問題這麼嚴重的話我們建議其實只要出國都應該要報備"},{"start":823.576,"end":826.977,"text":"因為過去我舉例羅賢哲少將他當時判刑確定成為共諜的時候媒體透露他除了駐泰國的武官被吸收的時候他期間以軍事交流、研討會休假的名義出國甚至到各地交付資料他有去過泰國、去過美國、去過新加坡他就是沒有去中國大陸"},{"start":849.282,"end":852.285,"text":"那他去中國他沒有去中國他還是淪為共諜如果而且這個對象不是只有哪一黨的人喔也不是只有在哪一個階層的人如果有這樣的必要的時候只要要出國其實我認為全部都要報備因為"},{"start":867.981,"end":874.283,"text":"我們現在看到去中國就是中共同路人會洩露國安機密可是有很多並不是這樣做的他去泰國新加坡日本韓國美國甚至有些去旅透過去旅遊或者甚至在國外置產其實都沒有沒有機會被招收為共諜嗎這個部分大家可以共同的考慮如果我們要更嚴格要"},{"start":890.929,"end":897.451,"text":"像其他的 可能甚至獨裁國家因為他管制很多嘛 就像以前要出國 哇 非常麻煩我們好不容易已經離開了那個年代如果現在慢慢慢慢慢慢的要這樣的限縮的時候我們希望只要可能有涉密的所有的相關人員你只要要出這個國門都應該要有相同的一個規範謝謝 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更嚴謹的去實施，我想這樣對我們國家的安全更有保障，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員上臺質詢。","接下來由陳冠廷上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-10","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","林憶君","林岱樺"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近\n期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具\n體作法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00005"}}},{"id":"160506","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160506","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc05aa50154dfc16bb016f08763592c0c2487b5e96e7cd6ee72e7f4644ce7aaae0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:41:44 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謝謝主席 我請王石司次長好 有請次長"},{"start":11.226,"end":15.65,"text":"委員好次長好首先感謝主席安排今天的專案報告樂為世界人台灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰那我覺得這個主題非常重要因為這就是我們在說的文化就是台灣的國力那只有我們訴說自己的故事在世界上交朋友的時候大家才能夠更加的彼此了解"},{"start":36.107,"end":54.426,"text":"那我看了今天的報告後來就發現其實我們台灣文化所面臨的挑戰甚至不是在國外可能是在國內的立法院尤其今年文化部的預算原先去年站在這裡的時候我們非常的驕傲說我們編列出史上最高的文化預算但是都還不夠"},{"start":55.467,"end":71.051,"text":"在我們整個台灣國家整體中央政府的預算比例我們都希望還要再提高但是我們今年受到了立法院在野黨的刪除及凍結所以我首先想要關心的是因為今年即將嘛這個大阪關係事博會我們文化部也有一個文化萬博那我們是規劃在八月的時候要去舉辦這個文化萬博的"},{"start":84.658,"end":86.37,"text":"專案的預算有沒有收到刪減"},{"start":88.461,"end":116.125,"text":"這個部分的預算有受到三主要兩個影響第一個是它本身有收入三減一千萬那第二個就是說它因為主要是本來這裡面還有含兩千萬的行銷經費那這個經費也被刪除所以大概主要的狀況在這裡不過對於團隊的展演的部分演出跟場地的部分我們應該都還是能按照原來的規劃來完成我們預算是本來預算是一億是然後現在被刪一共是兩千"},{"start":116.505,"end":128.336,"text":"被刪了兩千多對 被刪兩千的文宣費對 主要是在文宣費那我們這一次是文化部還有跟台灣文學館國影中心還有我們文化台灣基金會一起來規劃嘛那原先是預計說我們要邀請超過一百位的台灣的藝術家跟文化工作者來到日本進行展演那目前我們的進度怎麼樣呢"},{"start":140.126,"end":153.798,"text":"我們目前也跟委員說明我們大概五月份會正式開記者會對外宣布我們整體的計畫那現在我們大概就是在場地已經都做了確認那現在針對表演的內容的規劃還有團體到底哪些團體可以完成這些表演內容再做各個契約的簽訂因為我們也一樣我們去的"},{"start":164.912,"end":182.322,"text":"這個文化人都會遠遠超過100位所以那跟每一位之間都要簽訂獨立的合約那因為我們這一次跨的範圍更廣除了展演以外包括科技藝術、文學、電影那譬如電影就會請影人那如果是文學就要請作家所以需要去敲定的"},{"start":183.562,"end":198.83,"text":"這個對象 邀請的對象跟合約的簽訂都非常的多所以現在大家都在進行這一類的事情那另外我們也開發了一支線上的遊戲所以我們也需要針對這個遊戲做一些事前的測試那預計我們可以在五月希望可以在五月中之前可以順利開這個記者會啦"},{"start":200.111,"end":203.853,"text":"所以即將就要去發佈我們的規劃那因為在文化奧運的時候文化部也去策了一個展那當時獲得非常好的迴響所以在去年審查預算我有提一個預算的主決議就是希望我們在今年的文化萬博也可以來去推廣台灣的新興文化新銳表藝者"},{"start":219.884,"end":222.726,"text":"例如說像去年你們邀請的林菲亞這個非常有台灣的代表性跟特色所以我也希望文化部今年也能夠來在讓台灣的這個新興文化表演藝術者也能夠有一個這個展演的這個機會跟空間那就在期待你們的規劃再來想要請教的是整體而言我們的文化交流司的業務我們的預算是"},{"start":243.704,"end":248.728,"text":"三減是六千五百五十萬那凍結數是超過九千萬我想問一下就三減了超過六千萬的預算有沒有影響到我們對於表役團體的補助或是相關的這些國際合作"},{"start":259.949,"end":286.472,"text":"有一個地方會有影響在補助的部分在補助的部分我們因為每年我們都會補助團體出國去參加個人或團體出國參加展演或參加或受邀等等那這個團體的數量有可能會下降大概會受到多少數量的影響現在看這樣如果是解凍能夠順利完成的話可能影響不會這麼大那如果解凍不順利的話目前我們估計大概是30到40個案子"},{"start":287.233,"end":306.861,"text":"一年會影響到可能會減少由30到40個團體今年的預算會沒有辦法補助有可能會沒有辦法進行補助啦對那另外當然就是委員看這個表就可以知道說我們大概在國外旅費跟教育訓練費上也會受到蠻大的影響這個沒宣因為被刪除了這不是凍結齁刪除了對2000萬全數刪除我比較擔心的是我們有很多國際合作嘛"},{"start":313.624,"end":321.714,"text":"在國外的展演啊可能跟當地的場館合作等等的那在國際的演出其實非常需要宣傳那這個部分我們怎麼來調整呢"},{"start":323.536,"end":347.617,"text":"這部分我們就是影響最大的部分啦我們大概兩個向度第一個當然就是跟民間的合作在出國表演的時候也一樣就是我們盡可能跟譬如說在地的民間團體或者是台灣的民間團體有自己的行銷管道的有自己的宣傳機制的我們跟他們合作透過他們的管道來宣傳文化部的相關的合作事項那第二個當然就是希望創造比較大的話題性那透過"},{"start":349.958,"end":369.007,"text":"議題透過口碑來帶動宣傳那也號召就是說如果能夠支持關心這類文化活動的人能達到比較高的自主性擴散那但是不得不承認的是說如果在媒體的投放跟採購上面沒有辦法進行的話在整個觸及的這個人數上很可能是會應該是一定會啦會受到影響這個就是等於說我們跟對方國家的機構也好場館也好團體也好洽談合作然後就是要拜託對方說你們可不可以幫我們宣傳"},{"start":379.172,"end":386.339,"text":"這個我想你們今年因為接下來就要提解東岸嘛希望你們可以多多的跟委員來溝通我們希望明年不要再遇到這樣的影響因為其實在國際上面對台灣的文化的露出這每一個機會都非常重要應該要好好的把握"},{"start":395.106,"end":408.581,"text":"那最後要請教的是因為有很多人在質疑說文化部為什麼要去補助藝文團體到底要不要補助但是呢其實講補助是文化部的法定業務這是一個法定業務它甚至不應該拿來辯論除非要去修法"},{"start":410.763,"end":418.089,"text":"那我很關切的是我們對於影視音產業的支持過去在質詢的時候有討論過似乎過去在影視音三個產業裡面我們對音樂產業流行音樂產業的支持以預算比例來說相對是比較低的舉文策院為例然後今天當然是文化部像文創產業投資計畫影視是超過了六成"},{"start":437.365,"end":449.441,"text":"但是流行音樂它是不到一成這個相距是八倍文化內容投資計畫呢影視是佔了超過七成那流行音樂甚至是0.49%0.49%是不到1%的這樣的比例那今天的專案報告裡"},{"start":455.388,"end":479.009,"text":"有關於流行音樂的支持也只有在第十一頁裡面有提到像我們選秀節目啊原子少年或是偶像團體的交流這些露出活動等等這些支持很重要但是我覺得還不夠那我去年在質詢的時候也有特別跟部長討論就是關於台灣的新興流行音樂就是嘻哈音樂我們如何來進行支持"},{"start":479.429,"end":499.512,"text":"怎麼說呢因為嘻哈音樂它其實是一個世界性的文化它是Hip Hop文化但是它在每一個國家在每一個社會裡面都會講出本土的樣子文化部過去也補助了幾個嘻哈音樂的選秀節目那我們看到這個創作是非常能夠展現台灣自己的語言跟故事"},{"start":499.972,"end":520.844,"text":"所以我是想要請教我們對於台灣的流行音樂今年有沒有預計打算怎麼樣來支持那針對嘻哈音樂有沒有相關的規劃跟委員報告我們在這個部分大概會透過影視局從包括內容產製面還有海外佈局來做進行那因為內容蠻多的我不曉得要另外補書面報告還是我請局長跟委員在這裡做個補助"},{"start":522.705,"end":529.448,"text":"好沒關係因為時間有限了所以已經有開始在進行了那我希望比較有具體一點的資料例如說有沒有做產業市場的分析比方說我們是在歐美市場比較有利基還是在東南亞市場東南亞對東南亞市場我們大概都有做一些對已經開始有在進行評估跟規劃好那這個我們在另外找時間來具體討論好沒問題好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩儀委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時41分）謝謝主席。請王時思次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長好。首先要感謝主席今天安排「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」的專案報告，我覺得這個主題非常重要，因為這就是我們在說的「文化就是臺灣的國力」，只有我們述說自己的故事，在世界上交朋友的時候，大家才能夠更加地彼此瞭解。","我看了今天的報告，赫然發現臺灣文化所面臨的挑戰甚至不是在國外，可能是在國內的立法院，尤其今年文化部的預算，去年站在這裡的時候，我們非常驕傲地說我們編列出史上最高的文化預算，但是都還不夠，占臺灣整個國家中央政府總預算的比率我們都希望還要再提高。但是我們今年預算受到了立法院在野黨的刪除及凍結，所以我首先想要關心的是，因為今年即將在大阪關西舉行世博會，而文化部也有文化萬博，規劃在8月的時候舉辦，這個文化萬博專案的預算有沒有受到刪減？"],["王次長時思：這個部分的預算有受到刪，主要兩個影響：第一個是它本身有刪減1,000萬；第二個主要是本來這裡面還有含2,000萬的行銷經費，這個經費也被刪除，所以主要的狀況在這裡。不過對於團隊展演、演出跟場地的部分，應該都能按照原來的規劃完成。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以預算是？"],["王次長時思：本來編列預算是1億，現在被刪一共是2,000萬。"],["吳委員沛憶：被刪了兩千多萬？"],["王次長時思：對，被刪了2,000萬的文宣費。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，主要是在文宣費，這次是文化部跟臺灣文學館、國影中心，還有臺灣文化基金會一起規劃。原先是預計邀請超過100位臺灣的藝術家跟文化工作者到日本進行展演，目前進度怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們大概5月份會正式開記者會對外宣布我們整體的計畫，現在場地已經做了確認，至於針對表演內容的規劃，還有團體，到底哪些團體可以完成這些表演內容，正在做各個契約的簽訂。因為去的文化人會遠遠超過100位，所以跟每一位都要簽訂獨立的合約。這次跨的範圍更廣，除了展演以外，包括科技藝術、文學、電影，譬如電影就會請電影人，如果是文學就會請作家，所以需要去敲定的對象及邀請的對象跟合約的簽訂都非常多，現在大家都在進行這類的事情。另外，我們也開發了一支線上遊戲，所以我們也需要針對這個遊戲做一些事前測試，預計可以在5月，希望可以在5月中之前順利開記者會。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以即將要發布相關規劃？"],["王次長時思：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：在文化奧運的時候，文化部也有策展，當時獲得非常好的迴響。所以在去年審查預算時，我提了預算主決議，希望們在今年的文化萬博也可以推廣臺灣的新興文化、新銳表藝者。例如去年你們邀請的妮妃雅，就非常有臺灣的代表性跟特色。所以我也希望文化部今年也能夠再讓臺灣的新興文化表演藝術者有一個展演的機會跟空間，就再期待你們的規劃。","整體而言，文化交流司的預算是刪減6,650萬，凍結數是超過9,000萬，我想問一下，刪減了超過6,000萬的預算，有沒有影響到對於表藝團體的補助或是相關的國際合作？"],["王次長時思：有一個地方會有影響，即補助的部分因為每年都會補助個人或團體出國參加展演或受邀等等，所以團體的數量有可能會下降。"],["吳委員沛憶：受到影響的數量是多少？"],["王次長時思：如果解凍能夠順利完成的話，可能影響不會這麼大；如果解凍不順利的話，目前我們估計大概是30到40個案子。"],["吳委員沛憶：一年會影響到……"],["王次長時思：會減少……"],["吳委員沛憶：可能有30到40個團體今年沒有預算補助？"],["王次長時思：有可能會沒有辦法進行補助。另外，委員看這個表就可以知道國外旅費跟教育訓練費上也受到滿大的影響。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為媒宣被刪除了！這不是凍結，刪除了。"],["王次長時思：這個是完全沒有……"],["吳委員沛憶：對，2,000萬全數刪除，我比較擔心的是我們有很多國際合作！在國外的展演，可能跟當地的場館合作等等的，而且在國際的演出其實非常需要宣傳，這個部分要怎麼來調整呢？"],["王次長時思：這就是影響最大的部分。我們大概兩個向度：第一個，當然就是跟民間的合作，在出國表演的時候也一樣，我們盡可能跟在地的民間團體或者是臺灣的民間團體，尤其有自己的行銷管道的、有自己的宣傳機制的，我們跟他們合作，透過他們的管道來宣傳文化部相關的合作事項；第二個，當然就是創造比較大的話題性，透過議題、透過口碑來帶動宣傳，也號召支持、關心這類文化活動的人，達到比較高的自主性擴散。但不得不承認的是，如果媒體的投放跟採購沒有辦法進行的話，在整個觸及的人數上應該是一定會受到影響。"],["吳委員沛憶：等於我們跟對方國家的機構也好、場館也好、團體也好洽談合作，然後要拜託對方幫我們宣傳？"],["王次長時思：是，只能拜託，行銷我們就無法承擔。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為接下來就要提解凍案，希望你們可以多多跟委員溝通，希望明年不要再遇到這樣的影響。其實在國際上臺灣文化露出的這每一個機會都非常重要，都應該要好好把握。","最後要請教的是，很多人在質疑文化部為什麼要去補助藝文團體？到底要不要補助？其實獎補助是文化部的法定業務，這是一個法定業務，所以甚至不應該拿來辯論，除非修法。我很關切的是我們對於影視音產業的支持。過去在質詢的時候有討論過，似乎過去在影視音三個產業裡面，我們對音樂產業、流行音樂產業的支持，以預算比例來說，相對是比較低的。舉文策院為例，文化部在文創產業投資計畫中，影視超過了六成，但流行音樂不到一成，相距是8倍；文化內容投資計畫，影視是占了超過七成，流行音樂甚至只有0.49%，不到1%的比例。今天的專案報告裡面有關於流行音樂的支持也只有在第11頁，裡面有提到選秀節目、原子少年或是偶像團體的交流等露出活動，這些支持很重要，但是我覺得還不夠。我去年在質詢的時候也有特別跟部長討論，就是關於臺灣的新興流行音樂，就是嘻哈音樂說如何來進行支持？因為嘻哈音樂其實是一個世界性的文化，是Hip hop文化，它在每一個國家、在每一個社會裡面都會長出本土的樣子。文化部過去也補助了幾個嘻哈音樂的選秀節目，我們看到的創作是非常能夠展現臺灣自己的語言跟故事，所以我想要請教，對於臺灣的流行音樂，今年有沒有預計打算怎麼樣來支持？針對嘻哈音樂有沒有相關規劃？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，這部分會透過影視局，從內容產製面還有海外布局來進行，因為內容滿多的，我不曉得要另外補書面報告還是我請局長跟委員在這裡做個補充？"],["吳委員沛憶：好，沒關係，因為時間有限。所以已經有開始在進行了？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我希望有比較具體一點的資料，例如產業市場分析？比方說我們是在歐美市場比較有利基還是在東南亞市場？"],["王次長時思：東南亞。"],["吳委員沛憶：東南亞市場？"],["王次長時思：我們有做先期的研究跟準備。"],["吳委員沛憶：已經開始在進行評估跟規劃？好，這個我們再另外找時間來做具體討論。"],["王次長時思：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["王次長時思：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":440,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","陳秀寳","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","林沛祥","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","何欣純","蔡易餘","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長王時思列席就「樂為世界人─臺灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00002"}}},{"id":"160505","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160505","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc01530123f2eb1266da01776dcf2b4a8ff87b5e96e7cd6ee72cb66546e995582555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:42:18 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我請法務部部長跟調查局的決定麻煩部長 局長委員早老大部長剛才有說到這個失望人數就是犯罪的行為嘛那麼韓國瑜被罷免的時候有一千三百多的失望人數"},{"start":45.004,"end":58.415,"text":"過大明新生的年數 參選總統的時候有5000多個希望的年數最後都沒有 一個沒有進班 一個沒有起訴所以犯罪的行為 但是最後不一定會起訴 就是這樣嘛"},{"start":62.473,"end":78.662,"text":"那個韓國瑜罷免,韓國瑜沒有那麼多人,死亡連署沒有那麼多,他那個應該只有95人有死亡連署的一個情形,但我想這個不起訴詞應該要交代的非常明顯。希望連署有分8個月要辦,90個月不用辦,不用起訴。"},{"start":82.257,"end":99.031,"text":"這個有釐清了喔,這個原來高雄地檢署這部分有釐清所有的案件,我不會去跟你說因為一個就沒辦,還是一個就有辦啦,沒必要我先告訴調查局長齁,我是真的,你有想到中官的姿勢說要嚴辦嗎?沒有沒有啦齁,還是怎麼有開一個世信會議,針對說怎麼行,這連署如果辦了,說有怎麼有專案的獎金有沒有?沒有"},{"start":110.84,"end":123.63,"text":"視訊會議有 但是沒有專欄的獎金沒有獎金就對了沒有沒有所以有比較少有開視訊的會議我們每天都在開視訊會議我們內部的會議經常會有視訊會議所以對於人到你不會說本人比較粗魯 本人比較不粗魯會不會這樣?不會不會不會你本人不會這樣嗎?你放心 絕對不會比較少不會嗎?不會不會你放心現在民間感受到都有啦沒有沒有來"},{"start":139.622,"end":144.811,"text":"我想請教你說有證據蓋在裡面嗎?我請教保證保證你有沒有偵察權?我沒有偵察權你沒有偵察權嗎?"},{"start":153.615,"end":164.12,"text":"警察主動發動對立有犯罪的行為當然他們會是監辦最好他們也是可以報稱檢察官監辦嘛那麼檢察官就有發動監察官檢察官本身有監察官發布保證沒有監察官如果這樣為什麼內政保證可以自費辦案"},{"start":174.505,"end":197.66,"text":"我想內政部長這件事是不是指揮辦案 這個是可以再討論台北市的警察局 台北市的警察局 我不去講我個人我有做什麼事情 我接受法律的制裁 我都沒有意見現在是台北市的警察局 已經說陷阱了陷阱就是他們看過錄影那麼大 什麼人有做什麼行為 要針對某一部分不讓檢測官 陷阱之後"},{"start":202.854,"end":213.701,"text":"內政部長起來說我是羞毛之一他現在還要重新叫統治署叫我去申請我請教這不是政體概念沒有什麼叫做政體概念"},{"start":218.904,"end":233.032,"text":"警察機關已經函餐到地檢宿了他現在講完之後叫我再去甩尾我想眾議院議員絕對不是因為內政部長講小話他要函餐 檢察官可以調查是不是這樣那個司法警察也是屬於偵查的"},{"start":241.756,"end":246.217,"text":"警察局已經對我說他把這個案件陷阱,就是說他已經有看過這個錄影大,什麼人做什麼事情所以才說要陷阱之後,白日內政部長發言之後"},{"start":260.757,"end":275.504,"text":"他還在發動地段來 要求本席去申請 那我沒問題啦你若沒有任何事 你叫我申請 我也沒問題我現在針對這兩個事情的中間 這不是政治概念沒什麼叫政治概念 內閣要解鎖啊 你是不用煩惱啦他是很煩惱的啦 還要叫我來顧他的官位 大家啪話也這樣 我現在正式跟你檢舉"},{"start":287.578,"end":303.19,"text":"補充 內雷箭啦齁 這案件你幫我翻過沒有我沒有偵查權 你跟我 委員跟我檢舉喔沒有啦 過去啦 這過去啦跟我檢舉 因為我沒有授予沒有 我不可以把 我不可以把保護補充檢舉嗎好啦 我公開檢舉啦齁不過我可以把內雷箭轉給局長參考啦 最好 咱海軍發一條24號的一條24號的來龍去脈當然 幸福 負責人家在那邊關啊"},{"start":317.679,"end":323.148,"text":"這條錢怎麼撐的?全省都撒謊,你覺得我站這裡有的沒的?我來試試看,我要正式檢舉這條錢撐出來,有政治人物介入?"},{"start":330.563,"end":348.416,"text":"是不是有人中了魔力我拜託看不看 調查局把過去的檔案拿出來看嘛超清澈 超清澈你不要說抓一個負責人 但輕鬆抓進去關了這件事都沒有真正嚴重的是暗中告解這個人 暗中去問責這個人這件事我是想不想 我所做的事情我一定想想啦"},{"start":360.969,"end":373.521,"text":"今天如果有人親友,在地檢署要送生兒,在這邊去關心也剛好而已但是如果有違反法令,你給我審判,給我遺産,我都接受,甚至我來接受"},{"start":376.124,"end":403.218,"text":"不過 政治力 不能改立啦 沒必要改立這個沒必要 啊 不一定 因為你改立 針對食糧界你就可以顧你法律 內政補充的進步你如果說法律補充這樣這麼清晰 不要擔心有的沒的主人人就把你 你要找人也不敢 你找人啊啊 如果想那種的就對了啦 生機快樂啊 你想說熱情中這樣就可以繼續跟你贏喔"},{"start":405.489,"end":430.592,"text":"剛好就好了,我告訴你老部長,今天你就不來內政委員會,不然我就來這裡感恩了但是我在跟你講的這就是政敵,戒律,公平公正的說法,我一向尊重但是有讓人嫌疑的時候,工作要避嫌他說內政部長,警察一回遊行,我是他主管的,你主管的沒表示你有政策權"},{"start":432.046,"end":435.731,"text":"如果這樣反對會計劃的人 財政補充不就要出來支付一百萬Q處理啊 做到補充了 再等一等不要三百多現費啦 啊啦 幾千戶都三百二不來靠我 大家企劃也一樣 我正確檢紀喔"},{"start":451.28,"end":460.223,"text":"你們都有聽到的,累累賺這個24億雖然清盤了,但過程中,如果元毅再去把東岸拿出來看看,我保證你臨時生活環節還要好,你做法不保重"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時42分）主席，我請法務部長跟調查局局長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：早。部長，剛才講到死亡連署就是犯罪行為，韓國瑜被罷免的時候，有一千三百多個死亡連署，郭台銘先生連署參選總統的時候，有五千多個死亡連署，最後，一個沒有偵辦，一個沒有起訴，所以犯罪行為最後不一定會起訴，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：罷免韓國瑜的死亡連署沒有那麼多人，那個應該只有95人有死亡連署的情形，我想這個不起訴處分書應該交代的非常清楚。"],["謝委員龍介：如果這樣的話，死亡連署有分一百多個要辦，九十幾個不用辦、不用起訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有釐清了，因為高雄地檢署這部分有釐清了。"],["謝委員龍介：我說給你聽，所有的案件我不會跟你說因為一個就沒有偵辦，還是一個就有偵辦，沒有必要。","請教調查局長，你有受到長官的指示說要嚴辦嗎？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，為什麼有開一個視訊會議，針對藍營連署如果辦了一樣有專案獎金？有嗎？"],["陳局長白立：視訊會議有，但是沒有專案獎金。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有獎金就對了？"],["陳局長白立：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：所以確實有開視訊會議。"],["陳局長白立：我們常常在開視訊會議，我們內部的會議經常會有視訊會議。"],["謝委員龍介：所以對於藍及綠，不會說辦藍比較用力，辦綠比較不用力，會這樣嗎？"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會、不會，委員請放心。"],["謝委員龍介：你辦案不會怎樣嘛？"],["陳局長白立：絕對不會。"],["謝委員龍介：確實不會嘛？"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會、不會，你放心。"],["謝委員龍介：但是現在民間感受到的是都有。"],["陳局長白立：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼我請教你有沒有政治力介入？請教部長，你有偵查權嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有偵查權。"],["謝委員龍介：你沒有偵查權嘛！警察主動發動對有犯罪的行為當然他們會去偵辦，最後他們也是可以報請檢察官偵辦，那麼檢察官就有發動偵查權，檢察官本身有偵查權，法務部長沒有偵查權，如果這樣為什麼內政部長可以指揮辦案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想內政部長這件是不是指揮辦案，這個可以再討論，我想這個是立法委員在質詢的時候……"],["謝委員龍介：來，我跟你說，臺北市的警察局……我不會去說我的個案，我有做什麼事情，我接受法律的制裁，我都沒意見。現在是說臺北市的警察局已經函送了，他們看過錄影帶，誰有做什麼行為，要針對哪一部分報給檢察官，函送之後，內政部長竟然說我是首謀之一，他現在還要重新寄通知書叫我再去說明，請教這不是政治介入，不然什麼叫作政治介入？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我也請……"],["謝委員龍介：一個警察機關已經函送到地檢署了，他現在講了之後，才叫我再去說明……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想中正一分局絕對不是因為內政部長講什麼話，他才會去……絕對不是這樣。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，他要函送，檢察官可以調我，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法警察也是屬於有偵查權的。"],["謝委員龍介：你聽不懂，警察局已經對外說他把這個案件函送，他已經有看過錄影帶，誰做了什麼事情，所以他函送，星期一內政部長發言之後，他又再發通知單來，要求本席去說明，那個我沒問題啦！你如果沒函送，你叫我說明，我也沒問題，我現在就針對這兩件事情的中間，這不是政治介入，不然什麼叫作政治介入？內閣要改組了，你不用煩惱，他是很煩惱的，要藉我來顧他的官位，大家拚看看，我現在正式跟你檢舉，部長，獵雷艦這個案件你辦過嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，我沒有偵查權，委員向我檢舉……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，這是過去的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我沒有……"],["謝委員龍介：我不能向法務部長檢舉嗎？好啦！我公開檢舉。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過我可以將委員這件轉給檢察機關參考。"],["謝委員龍介：獵軍艦最後海軍發一筆24億的來龍去脈，當然慶富的負責人被抓進去關了，這筆錢怎麼請的？全身都是蝨子，你跟我在這裡有的沒的，就來試試看，我正式檢舉，這筆錢請出去有政治人物介入，是不是有人從中謀利？我拜託法務部調查局把過去的檔案再拿出來看，把它查清楚，不要說抓一個負責人，陳慶男抓進去關了，這件事就沒有了，真正嚴重的是暗中勾結的這些人、暗中運作的這些人，要來偵辦我是首謀，我所做的事情我一定承受，今天如果有人的親友在地檢署要被聲押質問，去關心也是剛好而已，但是如果有違反法令，你偵辦我、移送我，我都接受，甚至我來自首，不過政治力不可以介入，沒必要，介入這個沒必要，也不一定因為你介入，針對謝龍介，你就能夠顧你內政部長的職務，你如果像法務部長這樣清廉，不要在那邊有的沒的，自然你要走，人家也捨不得你走。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["謝委員龍介：如果像那種節外生枝的，你以為賴清德這樣就可以繼續用你嗎？剛好而已，我跟你說，劉部長，我今天沒有去內政委員會，不然我就去那邊問他，但是我要跟你說這就是政治介入。公平、公正的司法我一向尊重，但是有嫌疑的時候，君子要避嫌。內政部長說警察、集會遊行法是他主管的，你主管的不表示你有偵查權，如果這樣，犯會計法的人，財政部長不就要出來指揮辦案？豈有此理！做到部長了，還在那裡……不要三八又假賢慧啦！如果全身都是蝨子，要來抓我，大家試試看，我正式檢舉了，你們都有聽到，獵雷艦24億雖然偵辦完了，抓去關了，但是過程中，調查局如果願意再去把那些檔案拿出來看看，我保證你馬上升官，說不定到最後換你當法務部長。"],["主席：下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},{"id":"160504","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160504","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc09fee2b99226ebd907fe8c6252e35fc4a87b5e96e7cd6ee7242ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:29:16 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電子供應鏈的各種產品。所以外界預估大概在5月初的時候，美國總統川普先生會對外報告，換句話說，在5月初這個時間點，他已經有預告要對晶片跟藥品來徵收關稅。川普還說，針對半導體產業的若干公司將做彈性的處理。所以本席要請教部長，對於這樣的說法，你的解讀是如何？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，美國目前針對這些特定項目的關稅仍有高度的不確定性，我們會持續關注5月可能的關稅細節，也會跟業者保持密切的聯繫，了解業者的需求，這是第一點。第二點，半導體產業近年依國際市場的需求在海外投資、產業布局，已經具備相當的彈性，包括為了就近服務美國市場的客戶，持續擴大在美國的投資。另外，臺灣EMS的廠早已布局全球，所以對多國的生產基地，可以配合美國客戶需求來調整產能來因應，所以我想我們在這上面的彈性還是比較大的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：彈性大，剛剛部長的回答是，第一個，不確定性很高，第二個，我們也有因應跟以往我們所做的布局。"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟業者、跟廠商也保持高度的聯繫。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是如果半導體的關稅真的上路了，它會造成我國產業、我們自己本身什麼樣的影響？以及半導體產業鏈是不是會加大外移？"],["郭部長智輝：半導體分成兩大塊，一塊是先進製程，一塊是成熟製程。先進製程方面，臺灣可說是百分之百有競爭力，這個部分大概美國的客戶也沒得談，我之前有跟美國客戶大概聊過這個問題，其實他們也說，他們會跟美國政府講不能課太高的關稅，因為對他們來講，太高的關稅是他們要完全吸收。但是對成熟的部分，我相信美國的關稅不是只有針對臺灣，能夠做成熟製程的國家，像是日本、韓國、中國、馬來西亞、新加坡，他們都有，在這個情況之下，臺灣因為良率比較高，所以我們承受的能力也還不錯，但是因為他們的獲利都是比較少的，所以那麼高的關稅，對他們來講是一個非常大的重點……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是重點，獲利小、關稅高。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們也會請美國客戶來影響美國政府，我們也會跟臺灣客戶談，他們都告訴我們談判的部分，就講說，我們只要在立足點不輸給我們的競爭國家的話，他們還是有能力的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以大家都非常努力，但是這個不確定性，也請我們政府部門務必要嚴陣以待，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們是嚴陣以待，謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","我們照剛剛的宣告，先休息10分鐘。","休息（10時42分）","繼續開會（10時52分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-10","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","劉書彬","何欣純","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","陳冠廷","黃捷"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就「美國實施進口產品國安調查對\n我國產業之影響及因應之道」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00006"}}},{"id":"160503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0ce25b6138c6b1809c0f390e692fb4f2487b5e96e7cd6ee72d02345ff075ccb485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:36:39 - 10:47:59","影片長度":"00:11:20","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra 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權限"},{"start":271.51,"end":291.459,"text":"應該可以稍微再寬鬆一點讓他們民眾如果有這個有足夠的一些更多的認證可以來去做處理的時候我覺得可以應該可以讓他們可以去做一些事實上的澄清就只要權限有開放的話我們為了防止投資客但是也不能去犧牲個別民眾相關的權益"},{"start":293.2,"end":295.261,"text":"從購退稅的條件不算是先購後售或是先售後購其實都可以適用的當然這邊委員提出來的條件第一個要涉及他有涉及 他有做了課片"},{"start":312.093,"end":329.771,"text":"她本來兩個人還沒有結婚後來也結了婚那中間過程當中因為又生了一個小孩子我們一般是看有沒有涉及作為一個最基礎的查核的那個認定要件但是因為就是有很多民眾呢當然不是這個個案我們說很多的民眾他涉及以後但是事實上他沒有居住的事實"},{"start":330.592,"end":352.862,"text":"有沒有居住的事實我覺得可以從寬來認定有沒有居住的事實這件事情其實不是只有用像委員這邊瓜吳寫的水電費我們會從寬按照它實際上能夠證明的事實來認定所以如果說真的這個居住者這個購物者他確實是有居住的事實像剛剛委員這邊提到的一些什麼公共設施使用的記錄"},{"start":354.022,"end":374.616,"text":"很長久 但你知道女人在生小孩其實也不宜搬遷太久 親生有來來去去但是他當然是一個比較特殊的個案但是我覺得這個對於很多小夫妻剛結婚其實負擔特別重你有這個檢測的那個標準的話對他們來說是一個很大的幫助這部分我想委員我們會請我們國稅局按照他們實際上的狀況才比較核實從寬的認定好 謝謝鄭次"},{"start":382.601,"end":399.035,"text":"我要問第二個有關醫療院所租稅的優惠這也是我在前幾次質詢當中我關注的就是說在3月20號 包括我們的次長我提到有關在租稅的機制上如何營造醫事人員更好的職業環境"},{"start":400.896,"end":414.739,"text":"我特別有做了一次的質詢當然現在我們為了希望留住醫事人員在工作職場上所以我們整體的醫療制度包括工作環境我們都一直不斷地在做檢討希望怎麼樣把醫事人員把工作環境調整得更好"},{"start":421.081,"end":448.1,"text":"那上一次我在質詢的時候我特別問到次長說我們如何在租稅制度的部分給予更多的優惠但是上一次並沒有給我很正面的答覆那在這邊我就要提到就是說包括醫事人員也提到在最近衛福部在推動健保的特約管理辦法當中要求說醫院要幫醫事人員加薪到基本薪資的兩倍"},{"start":449.421,"end":461.07,"text":"那在診所的部分要幫醫事人員加薪到基本薪資的1.5倍這件事情引起醫療院所其實有很多的討論跟不同的意見那當然我今天不在這邊我們討論他們的意見是什麼我重點要放在租稅優惠跟獎勵醫事人員加薪的部分"},{"start":468.695,"end":497.454,"text":"那我就根據我們現在經濟部的中小企業發展條例當中的三十六條之二我們只要中小企業為了鼓勵幫基層員工加薪只要加薪到七成五我們就有機會讓他們在營利事業所得稅當中扣除當然醫療院所不屬於中小企業但是意思是一樣的在最近我們特約的管理辦法衛福部特約管理辦法當中也鼓勵醫療院所跟診所"},{"start":498.735,"end":517.076,"text":"基層護理人員 醫師加薪也同樣的他只是因為醫療運輸他不是盈利單位中小企業 雇主他是盈利單位但是醫師是一樣的所以怎麼樣我們提供一個更好的租稅優惠的環境是我今天質詢的重點"},{"start":518.257,"end":533.411,"text":"所以在這邊所以醫事人員調薪也好他並沒有達到他並沒有享有任何租稅的優惠也沒有政府任何的鼓勵跟相關的措施我說到這邊你應該了解我的意思吧"},{"start":534.011,"end":556.645,"text":"中小企業他有 雇主有他只要加薪達到一定的75%他就可以減稅在營運事業所得稅當中減稅所以在這邊因為我時間也快到了所以我在這邊我提到就是說對於中小企業鼓勵中小就是加薪的部分在衛福部的業管辦法當中如何給醫事人員調薪的醫療院所租稅的優惠"},{"start":558.337,"end":567.437,"text":"所以我希望在今天我質詢完之後我希望有機會跨部會的在進行做進一步的討論"},{"start":570.321,"end":592.235,"text":"這個部分我想委員提出來的問題主要就是因為目前我們中華企業發展條例它適用的對象是公司組織所以它公司組織是有享有這樣一個優惠我理解那因為我們醫療院所它本身有的是財團法人組織有的是公立醫院那有的是社團法人組織他們其實本身不一定會適用應該繳納所得稅這個政策政策"},{"start":596.417,"end":610.788,"text":"像公立醫院、像財團法醫院我理解但是政府希望留住醫護人員在職場上所以鼓勵無論醫療院所或診所加薪這個方向是正確的"},{"start":614.651,"end":639.166,"text":"跨部會的議題如何去營造更好的醫事環境在租稅上在優惠上如何處理這個就需要跨部會大家坐下來談而是你們要去方向是對的大家都支持至於怎麼解決他們有一些是財團法人有一些是醫療教學醫院有一些是基層醫療院所這個有不同的我清楚但是至於怎麼去解決這些問題讓"},{"start":641.841,"end":662.23,"text":"所有的無論財政法他們願意去加薪這件事情給醫療院所給基層員工加薪給基層的第一線的醫療人員醫護人員加薪我覺得這個是需要跨部會大家去思考的問題而不是這不關我的事是委員我了解那也許就是如果是需要跨部會協商我們財務絕對會樂意參與這樣一個討論的"},{"start":666.41,"end":672.906,"text":"對就看你們怎麼提出好的方案出來好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝燕秀委員我們現在休息五分鐘謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時36分）謝謝召委。我想請政次，還有法制處。"],["主席：李政次、法制處姚處長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：剛才郭國文委員質詢的，其實也是我上個星期質詢的，未來如何在油車跟電車保持原有的競爭力，落實大家一直都希望的，下一個階段對電車的購買力能夠高一點，這個就是我上一次質詢提到的。郭國文委員提的也沒有錯，在野黨不斷提很多好的政策，不管是在野、執政都認為貨物稅已經到達有必要調整，重新盤整、思考的時候，如果你們還一直守舊，對不起！我們就送法案進來。當你們有版本的時候，我們都還可以坐下來，無論是哪個政黨的委員，大家都可以好好討論；但當你們沒有版本，有時候根本沒有辦法討論，大家在很多的意見衝突當中，就沒有辦法集中去把議題討論得更完整，所以這個部分我還是要請你們好好思考。","回到今天的貨物稅，我有一個個案是關於房地重購退稅的案件，我是要用這個個案來提醒你們，有很多案子，你們思考的方向有沒有機會站在人民的角度、更周延。有關房地重購退稅，我來反映一個個案，從個案討論通案。有民眾陳情在疫情期間買了一個預售屋，當下是準備自住的，也因應生活習慣調整，當時就做了客變。您了解客變的意思嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我了解。"],["李委員彥秀：買房子有做了客變就代表不是投資房，因為一般客變都會花更多的錢去調整。本來是打算跟女友過兩人世界的美好生活，但是因為疫情缺工缺料，房子交屋延宕，多了一、兩年時間。後來疫情當中，這一對男女朋友懷孕、也結了婚，在孩子出生、還在坐月子的過程當中，他們發現原本只是打算兩個人生活，本來買的房子可能不適合結婚、生小孩住，就打算賣了這個預售屋，後來在附近買了一個更大、適合三個人住的房子。原本買的房子交屋沒多久之後就賣掉了，所以課了很高的房地合一稅，本來是想用重購退稅的方式可以來減輕負擔，但是後來國稅局以沒有居住事實為理由拒絕，否定可以用重購退稅的方式。","這個案件的事實是當時有申請客變，他有一個事實，也有遷徙戶籍，雖然住了沒有很久，但是中間因為疫情交屋時間延後非常長。第三、他的女友，即現在的太太，後來因為懷孕、坐了月子，我覺得國稅局在認定事實的部分，有很多資料可以去釐清。你們說這個個案只能用水電單認證，所以排除了其他認證的事實，因為你們認為不足，但是包括當時使用公設、車輛進出等，其實有很多相關輔證，還有包括當時做了客變，也可以證明他不是投資客。當然這樣的個案不多，但是我覺得在是不是投資客、是不是自住的認證過程當中，應該可以有更多不同的佐證來認證、處理。我是不是可以請政次對於個案認定的權限稍微再寬鬆一點？如果民眾有足夠的認證可以來處理的時候，應該讓他們做一些事實上的澄清，只要權限有開放的話。雖然是為了防止投資客，但是也不能犧牲個別民眾相關的權益。"],["李次長慶華：對於委員指教的，我們很清楚。基本上，重購退稅的條件，不管是先購後售或是先售後購都可以適用。至於委員提出來的條件第一個就是要設籍，目前就是……"],["李委員彥秀：他有設籍也做了客變，本來兩個人還沒有結婚，後來結了婚，中間過程當中又生了一個小孩子。"],["李次長慶華：我們一般是看有沒有設籍作為一個最基礎的查核認定要件，但是有很多民眾，當然不是指這個個案，很多民眾設籍以後，事實上卻沒有居住的事實……"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得有沒有居住的事實可以從寬來認定。"],["李次長慶華：有沒有居住的事實這件事情其實不是只有用像委員列出的水電費，我們會從寬按照他實際上能夠證明的事實來認定。如果這個居住者、購屋者確實有居住的事實，像剛才委員提到的一些公共設施使用紀錄等等……"],["李委員彥秀：雖然居住沒有很長久，但你知道女人在生小孩，其實也不宜搬遷，先生有來來去去……"],["李次長慶華：了解。"],["李委員彥秀：他當然是一個比較特殊的個案，但是我覺得很多小夫妻剛結婚負擔特別重，有這個減課的標準對他們來說是很大的幫助。"],["李次長慶華：我們會請國稅局按照他們實際上的狀況，採比較核實從寬的認定，不會只用水電費來處理。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝政次。我要問第二個是有關醫療院所租稅的優惠，這也是我在前幾次質詢當中關注的。3月20號我提到在租稅的機制上如何營造醫事人員更好的職業環境，我特別做了一次質詢。現在為了希望留住醫事人員在工作職場上，所以整體的醫療制度，包括工作環境，我們都一直不斷地在檢討，怎麼樣把醫事人員的工作環境調整得更好。上一次我在質詢的時候特別問次長，我們如何在租稅制度給予更多優惠，但是你們上次並沒有給我很正面的答復。最近醫事人員也提到，衛福部在推動健保的特約管理辦法當中，要求醫院要幫醫事人員加薪到基本薪資的兩倍；診所的部分則要幫醫事人員加薪到基本薪資的1.5倍，這件事情引起醫療院所有很多討論跟不同意見。當然我今天不在這邊討論他們的意見是什麼，我的重點要放在租稅優惠跟獎勵醫事人員加薪的部分。根據現行經濟部的中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二，為了鼓勵中小企業幫基層員工加薪，只要加薪到七成五，就有機會讓他們在營利事業所得額當中扣除，當然醫療院所不屬於中小企業，但意思是一樣的。最近在衛福部的特約管理辦法當中，也鼓勵醫療院所和診所都幫基層護理人員、醫師加薪，也同樣的，只是因為醫療院所不是營利單位，中小企業、雇主是營利單位，但是意思是一樣的，所以我們怎麼樣提供一個更好的租稅優惠的環境是我今天質詢的重點，針對醫事人員調薪並沒有享有任何租稅的優惠，也沒有政府任何的鼓勵跟相關的措施，我說到這邊，你應該了解我的意思吧？"],["李次長慶華：瞭解。"],["李委員彥秀：中小企業有、雇主有，他只要加薪達到一定的75%就可以在營利事業所得稅當中減稅，因為我時間也快到了，所以我在這邊提到的就是，對於鼓勵中小企業加薪的部分，在衛福部的業管辦法當中，如何給醫事人員調薪的醫療院所租稅優惠，在今天我質詢完之後，我希望有機會跨部會再進行進一步的討論。"],["李次長慶華：這個部分，委員提出來的問題主要就是因為目前中小企業發展條例適用的對象是公司組織，所以公司組織享有這樣的優惠。"],["李委員彥秀：我理解、我理解。"],["李次長慶華：因為醫療院所本身有的是財團法人組織，有的是公立醫院，有的是社團法人組織，他們其實不一定會適用應該繳納所得稅這個政策，很多像公立醫院、像財團法人醫院可能……"],["李委員彥秀：我理解、我理解，但是政府希望留住醫護人員在職場上。"],["李次長慶華：是，瞭解。"],["李委員彥秀：所以鼓勵無論是醫療院所或診所加薪的方向是正確的，這是跨部會的議題，如何營造更好的醫事環境，在租稅優惠上如何處理，這就需要跨部會大家坐下來談，方向是對的，大家都支持。至於怎麼解決，他們有一些是財團法人，有一些是教學醫院，有一些是基層醫療院所，這有不同的問題，我清楚，至於怎麼去解決這些問題，讓所有的無論是財團法人、醫療院所等等，讓他們願意去給基層員工加薪，給第一線的醫療人員、醫護人員加薪，這件事情我覺得是需要大家、跨部會去思考的問題，而不是認為這不關我的事。"],["李次長慶華：是，委員，我了解，也許如果需要跨部會協商，我們財政部絕對會樂於參與這樣的討論。"],["李委員彥秀：對，那就看你們怎麼提出好的方案來，好不好？謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：是，我們會再想想，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。我們現在休息5分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時47分）","繼續開會（10時53分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接著我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},{"id":"160502","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160502","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0983952ab66a4dee7c0f390e692fb4f2487b5e96e7cd6ee7292aeab3b46f231cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:25:22 - 10:36:31","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra 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之前就陳情很多次了也因此呢 行政部門有沒有意識到這個問題 有"},{"start":80.086,"end":106.068,"text":"曾經有意思過 也就是說在2002年的時候 早在23年前行政院的財政改革委員會的結論 我唸給你聽短期措施就是取消橡膠輪胎 平板玻璃 電器 飲料 室內貨物稅短期內 已經過了23年了 取消了沒有"},{"start":107.778,"end":121.225,"text":"雖然我們沒有直接取消但是我們已經配合就是產業政策或者是環保節能這四個都取消了嗎沒有包含像節能電器就是我們今天講的沒有我現在沒有問你節能電器啊你歪樓了市長你很刻意喔你聰明不應該用在這種地方啊"},{"start":128.03,"end":139.166,"text":"取消輪胎 冰板 玻璃 電器 飲料這四個都還在課啊 然後取消經過23年 它是寫短期喔23年還不夠短23年"},{"start":142.61,"end":162.491,"text":"還沒取消你要承認嘛是 項目沒有取消 課稅項目我們確實沒有取消確實就是還在課這四類的貨物稅但是我們也因應就是說配合產業政策的調整我們就另外可是問題是當初寫得很清楚啊短期措施就是要取消這四個沒有取消嘛行政怠惰嘛"},{"start":163.772,"end":173.928,"text":"第二個中長期的部分要把車輛油氣水泥用綠色碎製來取代綠色碎製制定了沒有"},{"start":174.899,"end":200.431,"text":"歷生稅制因為我們現在其實因為我們環境部要課徵碳費所以我們現在現在沒有碳稅只有碳費而且經過23年這個意思是說你這確實有外部成本那也應該課但是不應該用貨物稅來課這就是在23年前行政院財政改革委員會所下的結論經過了23年"},{"start":202.972,"end":222.114,"text":"原封不動連改都沒有改為什麼因為財政部門就是把這個貨物稅把它當成國家的既得利益稅因為你把它當成既得利益稅既然是當成既得利益稅需要改的時候你們連改都沒有改為什麼就是我這個圖表第一個圖表再看一下"},{"start":223.342,"end":228.591,"text":"他的稅金高達最高這幾年的稅金最高高達1831億最低來到1535億也就是說稅收的來源總共有1500到1800之間"},{"start":238.308,"end":251.459,"text":"大塊肥肉很容易徵得的稅源你不願意放棄但是你又行政怠惰你不願意找其他的一個稅源來找到剋稅的正當性財政部二十幾年來就是如此"},{"start":256.072,"end":270.807,"text":"不過委員我們確實是這幾年我們已經配合整個國家產業政策發展的方向我們提供了補償措施好 你有配合沒有配合我再讓你看下一個圖表好了啦心態沒有變作為就沒有變啦你看我統計出來的圖表"},{"start":273.573,"end":279.358,"text":"橡膠輪胎課多少?24億水泥課多少?25億飲料課37億平板玻璃6億油氣59...596億電氣72億車輛853億這是最近的這113年總共課得1613億裡頭的民意從比例上最多的就是車輛跟油氣啦將近九成啦89.889.8"},{"start":299.815,"end":323.805,"text":"因為這以量制計稅這是最方便的而且鎖定在少數的廠商就這個情況來看我們就從2002的這個研究水泥 輪胎 玻璃都是中間跟零件這不是終端產品所以這個不應該輪胎課一次汽車又課一次這當初的稅改的結論2002"},{"start":329.448,"end":355.325,"text":"後來2008的時候 第三次稅改會議的時候又重申一次又講一次但是有沒有改 還是沒有改所以陳情不斷 請願不斷立法院的質詢不斷老實講 我現在也是在重複質詢啊我也是在重複質詢啊但是對象不一樣啊上次部長 這次市長啊但是態度都一樣 堅持不改一毛不拔"},{"start":356.932,"end":371.262,"text":"不會委員 其實我們這幾年都一直在配合產業政策做了相關的調整所以才會有12.1 12.3調整以來 你從看稅收的收入就沒有調整了而且你很誇張了 我再講給你聽你從電器喔 電器類從電視 冰箱 這還是奢侈稅嗎 音響一共9類這早不是奢侈稅了 而且新的3C產品啊 都沒有課到啊"},{"start":381.329,"end":403.037,"text":"還有更誇張了你的飲料類的部分啊嗑的是社產機制的清涼飲料什麼叫清涼飲料不涼了就不用嗑而且呢礦水水不用嗑但是如果水裡頭有添加色素糖香料就要嗑那有添加物不用喔超過這個花生綠豆仙草就不用喔這很奇怪"},{"start":403.817,"end":422.43,"text":"這些瓶瓶一樣是飲料喔手牙也不用課喔機器也就要課喔標準在哪裡不是財政部說了算講來講去啊我說在啦就是錢的問題而已啦你就是不願意放棄這個既得的這個稅收來源啊部長 社長承認吧"},{"start":426.96,"end":448.349,"text":"報緣確實貨物稅是我們國家財政收入的一個很主要的部分那一千六百多億我也承認很重要啦我也沒有叫你不科稅嘛那你來替代稅源欸你的綠色稅制綠色稅制其實我們現在為什麼會有節能家電退稅為什麼會有這個已經經過二十幾年了勒市長我講的這些你都經過嘛是 了解對不對你都很清楚嘛我都經過"},{"start":454.532,"end":481.924,"text":"你都經過嘛結果都沒有做嘛有啦有做有做一點點嘛事實上就是在這邊嘛結果哪有什麼變其實我們這幾年稅收從一千八百多億降下來也是在做這方面的優惠調整好啦你那個皮毛的修改不是真正大刀的闊斧大刀闊斧的轉變貨物稅需要改的你不要等到川普來跟你改啦"},{"start":483.57,"end":507.166,"text":"川普把貨物稅當成非關稅貿易障礙我們內部自己不改還要逼著川普來改或者會逼著在野黨哪一天就像財法法一樣給你突襲一樣在野黨現在多數一定要搞成這樣子嗎或搞到企業界全面的大反彈的時候你才要面對嗎一定要這種被動式的方式嗎"},{"start":508.371,"end":519.517,"text":"對不對而且民間在討論這些問題不是沒有道理我就單純站在一個消費者的角度來看同樣一輛車的錢2000CC以下100萬乘以關稅17.5我們今天討論的是貨物稅我今天就不提關稅貨物稅25%營業稅加5%你看喔"},{"start":531.636,"end":550.868,"text":"你看喔,一輛車就變成154.2萬喔你看,2000cc以上就變164.4喔就多了6成,一個多了14,一個變60喔你如果300萬以上的話,你看又加上一個奢侈稅,夯不啷噹起來就變300萬變529.3萬我算過那個%大概是1.76倍,將近兩倍"},{"start":562.046,"end":572.064,"text":"將近兩倍的這種情況底下你看累積再累積這不是單純的一個關稅的問題而已這對消費者來說是非常的不公平"},{"start":573.37,"end":592.38,"text":"其實這裡針對計算主要是燃油車才適用啦如果是電動車的話貨物稅就是變成零了電車是沒有啦但是我現在跟你argue就是油車嘛這不公平嘛數十年來都沒有轉變嘛調整一下就是大家的消費習慣"},{"start":595.882,"end":620.383,"text":"那個次長最後我就請教你一件事情嘛你就把所有歷年來啊因為我的資料收集也非常有限歷年來幾次的稅改當中你做一個統計你剛剛講說你有改每次的稅改當中所最關於貨物稅的決議的內容當中每一次你把它做一個圖表就這個圖表當中跟現實的轉變有多少我們來做一個檢驗啊請您自己寫啊好不好"},{"start":621.364,"end":648.838,"text":"我會請負稅署來寫好 你請負稅署來寫啊你不要寫 你們不要寫沒關係啊 負稅署寫給我啊是 好 沒問題這長期以來兩個禮拜給我一份嘛可以我們來公布一下到底我們的貨物稅的改革改了什麼改了1% 哪幾個%多少程度兩個禮拜 好不好就歷年來的稅改 針對貨物稅免得如果說你稅改你這個貨物稅真的有改的話今天就不會有七項的人民請願案了啦"},{"start":649.898,"end":664.529,"text":"方委員我們那個兩個禮拜時間可不可以延長為一個月可以嗎你們的那個署長那麼專業三個禮拜啦謝謝啦好 謝謝郭國文委員好 接著我們請你燕秀委員燕秀委員諮詢完畢後我們休息五分鐘謝謝交委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時25分）謝謝主席，有請李政次。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：政次好。我拜讀你們今天的書面報告，第一點，簡單的講就是要等到行政院裡頭併案審議。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：第二點是要保留談判的籌碼；第三點是要跟其他的部會進行審慎評估，以這三點來看，是最好現在都不要動、不要變，但是我們談到貨物稅都不要動、不要變，並不是你現在的態度，很久以前就如此；嚴格來說，貨物稅的性質是農業時期的奢侈稅，這你很清楚，在性質上是如此，有一種壓抑消費的作用，可是長年以來，臺灣社會的型態，老早就已經有很大的轉變，以致於很多要修改貨物稅的聲音，甚至要取消。你看今天的陳情案，人民請願案件有7案之多。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["郭委員國文：我相信不是今天陳情而已，之前就陳情很多次，因此行政部門有沒有意識到這個問題？有，曾經有意識過，早在23年前，在2002年的時候，行政院財政改革委員會的結論，我唸給你聽，短期措施是取消橡膠、輪胎、平板玻璃、電器、飲料四類貨物稅，這是指短期內，可是已經過了23年了，取消了沒有？次長。"],["李次長慶華：雖然我們沒有直接取消，但是我們已經配合產業政策或者環保節能做了一些優惠措施的提供……"],["郭委員國文：這四類都取消了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：沒有，包含像節能電器，就是我們今天講的……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我現在沒有問節能電器，你歪樓了，次長很刻意喔！"],["李次長慶華：剛才委員有講到電器嘛！"],["郭委員國文：你的聰明不應該用在這種地方，取消輪胎、平板、玻璃、電器、飲料，這四類都還在課徵，哪有取消？"],["李次長慶華：對，但是……"],["郭委員國文：經過23年，它寫短期喔！23年還不夠短？還沒取消，妳要承認嘛！"],["李次長慶華：是，我們確實沒有取消課稅項目。"],["郭委員國文：確實就是還在課徵這四類的貨物稅。"],["李次長慶華：但是我們有配合產業政策調整，另外提供租稅優惠措施……"],["郭委員國文：可是問題是當初寫得很清楚，短期措施就要取消這四類，但沒有取消，行政怠惰嘛！第二個中長期的部分，是要把車輛、油氣、水泥以綠色稅制取代，請問綠色稅制制定了沒有？"],["李次長慶華：綠色稅制，因為環境部要課徵碳費，所以我們現在……"],["郭委員國文：現在沒有碳稅，只有碳費啊！而且經過23年，這確實有外部成本，也應該課稅，但是不應該用貨物稅來課，這就是23年前行政院財政改革委員會所下的結論，經過了23年原封不動，連改都沒有改，為什麼？因為財政部門把貨物稅當成國家的既得利益稅，既然是不當的既得利益稅，需要改的時候，妳們連改都沒有改，為什麼？從這圖表顯示，這幾年貨物稅金最高高達1,831億，最低來到1,535億，也就是稅收來源總共有1,500億到1,800億之間，這是一大塊肥肉，很容易徵得的稅源，你們不願意放棄，但是又行政怠惰，不願意找其他的稅源及課稅的正當性，財政部在這二十幾年來都是如此。"],["李次長慶華：委員，我們確實這幾年已經配合整個國家產業政策發展的方向提供了補救措施……"],["郭委員國文：好，你有沒有配合……我再讓你看這個統計圖表，心態沒有變、作為就沒有變。橡膠輪胎課多少？24億；水泥課多少？25億；飲料課37億、平板玻璃課6億、油氣課596億、電器課72億、車輛課853億，這是113年總共課得1,613億，比例上最多的是車輛跟油氣，將近九成，有89.8%，因為以量計稅最方便，而且鎖定在少數的廠商。","從2002年的研究來看，水泥、輪胎、玻璃都是中間原料跟零件，不是終端產品，不應該輪胎課一次，汽車又課一次，是當初2002年稅改的會議結論，後來到2008年第三次稅改會議的時候又重申一次、又講一次，但你們有沒有改？還是沒有改，所以陳情不斷、請願不斷、立法院的質詢不斷，老實講我現在也是在重複質詢，只是對象不一樣，上次是部長，這次是次長，可是態度都一樣，堅持不改，一毛不拔。"],["李次長慶華：郭委員，其實我們這幾年都一直在配合產業政策做了相關的調整，所以才會貨物稅條例第十二條之一、之二、之三……"],["郭委員國文：哪有調整？調整以來，從稅收的收入就知道沒有調整了。"],["李次長慶華：稅收確實是在減少……"],["郭委員國文：而且你們很誇張，我現在唸給你聽，從電器類的電視、冰箱，這還是奢侈品嗎？到音響一共九類，這早就不是奢侈品了，而且新的3C產品都沒有課徵到，還有更誇張的，飲料類的部分是課「設廠機製」的清涼飲料品，什麼叫清涼飲料？不涼的就不用課？而且礦泉水不用課，但是如果水裡頭有添加色素、糖、香料就要課，有添加物的不用喔！像是花生、綠豆及仙草就不用，這很奇怪，一樣都是飲料，手搖飲不用課，結果機器製作的就要課，標準在哪裡？不就是財政部說了算？講來講去，說實在的，就是錢的問題而已，你們就是不願意放棄這個既得稅收來源，次長承認吧！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，貨物稅確實是我們國家財政收入很主要的部分。"],["郭委員國文：我也承認那一千六百多億很重要。"],["李次長慶華：對，因為……"],["郭委員國文：我也沒有叫你們不課稅，你們的替代稅源呢？綠色稅制呢？"],["李次長慶華：綠色稅制的部分，其實我們現在為什麼會有節能家電退稅？為什麼會有汰舊換新的汽機車退稅？這些都是配合綠色稅制作相關處理。"],["郭委員國文：這已經過二十幾年了，次長，我講的這些你都經歷過嘛！對不對？你都很清楚。"],["李次長慶華：是，了解，我都經歷過。"],["郭委員國文：你都經歷過，結果都沒有做嘛！"],["李次長慶華：有啦！有做努力，有做相關的……"],["郭委員國文：有做一點點嘛！事實就在這邊，結果哪有什麼變？就是最近我們在討論的……"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，其實我們這幾年稅收從一千八百多億降下來也是在做這方面的優惠調整。"],["郭委員國文：好啦！你們那個皮毛的修改，不是真正的大刀闊斧的轉變。"],["李次長慶華：二百多億也不是個小數字。"],["郭委員國文：貨物稅是需要改的，不要等到川普來改，川普把貨物稅當成了非關稅貿易障礙，我們內部自己不改，還要川普逼著來改，或者逼著在野黨哪一天像財劃法一樣來突襲，在野黨現在多數，一定要搞成這樣子嗎？要搞到企業界全面的大反彈的時候，你們才要面對嗎？一定要這種被動式的方式嗎？","民間討論這些問題不是沒有道理，我就單純站在一個消費者的角度來看，同樣一輛進口車的錢，排氣量在2,000CC以下的車輛，100萬元乘以關稅17.5%，我們今天討論的是貨物稅，就不提關稅，貨物稅是25%，再加營業稅5%，一輛車就變成154.2萬元，而2,000CC以上的增加到160.4萬元，多了六成，是20%，一個多54萬元，一個多60萬元，如果是300萬元以上的車再加上奢侈稅這些夯不啷噹的，就從300萬增加到529.3萬元，我算了百分比大概是1.76倍，在將近2倍的情況底下，累積再累積，這不是單純的一個關稅的問題而已，這對消費者來說是非常的不公平！"],["李次長慶華：其實這個計算主要是燃油車才適用，如果是電動車，貨物稅就變成零了，所以我們……"],["郭委員國文：這個我都知道，電車沒有，但我現在跟你argue的就是油車……"],["李次長慶華：所以我們希望配合能源轉型，調整一下大家的消費習慣。"],["郭委員國文：這不公平，數十年來都沒有轉變！次長，最後我就請教你一件事情，因為我的資料蒐集也非常有限，針對歷年來幾次的稅改，請你做一個統計。你剛剛說有改，每次的稅改當中關於貨物稅的決議內容，你都把它做一個圖表，看圖表跟現實的轉變差距有多少，我們來檢驗。請你自己寫，好不好？可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：我會請賦稅署來寫。"],["郭委員國文：好，你請賦稅署來寫，你不要寫，沒關係，請賦稅署寫給我。"],["李次長慶華：沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：這是長期以來的問題，兩個禮拜後給我一份。"],["李次長慶華：可以。"],["郭委員國文：我們來公布一下，到底貨物稅的改革改了什麼？改了幾個百分比、多少程度。"],["李次長慶華：好，我們會整理出來提供給委員檢視。"],["郭委員國文：兩個禮拜，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：好。"],["郭委員國文：就是歷年來的稅改針對貨物稅的部分。如果貨物稅真的有改，今天就不會有7項人民請願案了！"],["李次長慶華：兩個禮拜的時間可不可以延長為一個月？可以嗎？"],["郭委員國文：署長那麼專業，三個禮拜，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝郭國文委員。","接著請李彥秀委員。李彥秀委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}