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時間到了 那我們現在開始進行協商會議協商進行前 我們先介紹到常委員羅志強委員張琦楷委員陳永康委員陳金輝委員陳培余委員郭育群委員林月琴委員"},{"start":1952.006,"end":1971.096,"text":"那今日協商委員吳宗憲等52人彌具公投提案主文為您是否同意各級法院和議庭法官判處死刑不須自決之政策請公決案本案於114年3月11日15日本院第11屆第三會期第六次會議"},{"start":1972.316,"end":1991.522,"text":"經提案人說明提案子去大體討論後決議進覆二讀交付黨團協商並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商現在進行協商請出席的三個黨團的代表表示意見各黨團輪流發言那每位委員發言時間為五分鐘先請提案委員所屬政黨國民黨團發言"},{"start":1995.643,"end":2015.992,"text":"好 羅委員好 實際上這個關於死刑一字決的公投 已經兩個黨 我們在各個場合 幾個黨都有很多的討論所以這邊我很簡短的說那判處死刑 因否一字決已經是重大形式的政策那"},{"start":2017.492,"end":2044.534,"text":"全民對於所謂的實質廢死或是廢除死刑都有高度疑慮這在歷次民調當中都有顯現所以我們認為如此重大的一個人民的一個關心的行事政策應該交付公決所以提出這個公投案希望得到大家的支持 以上好 謝謝羅委員那接下來看是民進黨還是民眾黨要"},{"start":2047.588,"end":2073.857,"text":"大家那麼客氣好 謝謝民進黨的禮遇我先簡短的發言事實上憲法法庭做了這個實質廢死之後民意沸騰大家可以看到那個民調一面倒的表示嚴正的抗議之前在這個憲法法庭做出決定之前大概你在做民調的時候大概就已經有八成反對這個廢死了那經過這個憲法法庭那一次的之後"},{"start":2074.477,"end":2087.471,"text":"大概高達九成的民眾都是表示反對的而且認為這個憲法法庭變成是一個實質廢死它裡面一個最重要的原因就是它提到說死刑判決要經過何義廷一致決"},{"start":2089.008,"end":2112.138,"text":"那從一審、二審到三審,有十幾位法官,你看全部都是贊成的,難度是非常高,所以已經等於是實質的廢死了。那台灣民眾黨基於一方面要尊重台灣多數的民意,然後第二個也很重要的,全世界這個潮流啊,你一看廢死的國家非常非常的少,那你再回到國內來看,"},{"start":2113.462,"end":2139.822,"text":"我跟吳宗憲吳委員有特別辦的這個公聽會我們邀了這個一些受害者家屬來辦的這個公聽會然後講聽了真的是心疼就是非常的他們心裡一方面經過好幾年這個煎熬那一方面他們看到憲法法庭做了這個實質廢止之後啊他們都極度的心裡極度的不平那目前我們台灣啊還有36位死刑犯是沒有執行的"},{"start":2141.594,"end":2145.81,"text":"這個問題都非常非常的嚴重所以台灣民眾黨也贊同說我們針對"},{"start":2147.41,"end":2175.721,"text":"憲法法庭這個做了這個實質的廢死而且要求這個何義廷要一致解這個事情我們讓全民來公投做一個有補救的一個機會當然我們也要鄭重的一個呼籲啦事實上我知道民進黨長久以來有推動這個廢死從蔡英文上任後沒多久他們就推動這個那時候我們在提議的就是說它是一個時代的進程你說像歐盟某些國家它要推動這個廢死那歐盟它的制度裡面就有例如說可能有終身監禁"},{"start":2176.621,"end":2201.007,"text":"可是我們在第一個還沒達到社會的共識之前第二個也沒有終身監禁這個修法之前貿然做了一個實質廢死的這個憲法法庭這個裁定之後啊 宣判之後感覺上人民是覺得問題是非常多的所以我希望透過公投這個這次啊表達我們充分的這個名利那更期待公投之後我們可以適度的把這個結把它解開"},{"start":2201.687,"end":2227.073,"text":"一方面讓目前還有很多受害者家屬心裡面的不平可以化解那一方面也讓社會上很多的擔憂得以不要再繼續下去我們共同來努力期待這個共同案可以順利的趕快進行而且讓全民來做一個公決 謝謝好 謝謝我們補充介紹王宏威委員 陳玉珍委員接下來我們是請民進黨團發言"},{"start":2229.776,"end":2249.075,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我說明一下剛剛為什麼要禮讓因為你們是坐在一起的你們是共同提出這個違法公投提案的那為什麼是違法公投提案呢因為事實上在3月25號會議時間結束之後國民黨跟民眾黨才衝進院會議場做出這個提案跟表決所以我想我們還是要針對這件事情提出抗議"},{"start":2249.816,"end":2265.827,"text":"那接下來我們要回到你們的公投提案內容我必須要說這一次這個提案呢是用反廢死來包裝所謂的反死刑一致決其實我們認為是在公開欺騙社會大眾畢竟台灣到目前為止沒有任何一刻是實質廢除過死刑"},{"start":2267.668,"end":2283.683,"text":"那如果我們今天要處理這個提案前提就是死刑要存在也就是死刑一字決的前提是死刑要存在事實上法務部在上個禮拜還有修正了所謂的執行死刑規則這個規則出爐之後呢當然大家都有各自的意見"},{"start":2284.284,"end":2302.729,"text":"但是如果台灣已經廢死那又何必再修正這個規則乾脆直接廢掉就好因此我要說國民黨這個反廢死的公投實質上是想要利用民眾對於反廢死的高支持度拉高現在處於低谷的民意甚至面對所謂大罷免的風潮"},{"start":2303.149,"end":2328.949,"text":"但是問題是在於我們立法院各位立法委員作為最高的立法機關我們是立法委員發起公投案本身就應該有所節制甚至我們要做的事情是透過修法來處理你們所在意的議題發起公投案的內容也不應該有誤導民眾的嫌疑那我剛剛已經說我認為這是一個公開詐欺詐騙的提案那接下來法律未接衝突的問題"},{"start":2329.91,"end":2345.992,"text":"國民黨提出反廢死的公投其實就是劍指憲法法庭113年度憲判的判決見解那判決見解我相信大家都清楚了我就不再說那這一段文字它是放在憲法判決的主文當中等同於是憲法判決的核心見解"},{"start":2346.753,"end":2368.414,"text":"效力应该等同于宪法未接但是公投法的公投案是基于宪法赋予人民创制赋爵的权利可是透过这些权利得到的公投结果的效力是属于法律未接因此如果公投案的题目内容直接抵触了宪法法庭的判决最终很有可能变成一场无效的公投"},{"start":2369.194,"end":2385.818,"text":"還有到底這件事情是不是重大的政策在公投法裡面提到人民全國性的公民投票適用的範圍其中有一項叫做重大政策的創制或者是覆決如果這件事情算是重大政策也就是剛剛張啟凱委員說的民意沸騰那我認為比較不會有不同的意見"},{"start":2389.179,"end":2404.035,"text":"可是問題在於這一次是法院在判決被告死刑時要不要一致通過這個其實已經涉及到法院如何做成判決基本上很難認定這叫做重大政策所以也就可以看出來為什麼國民黨用這個方法來包裝所謂的反廢死"},{"start":2406.557,"end":2428.457,"text":"所以拋開重大政策這件事情不講 光是創制跟覆決這個部分也有問題畢竟憲法法庭所揭示的事情是 現行法規沒有要求法院做成死刑判決時要一致決所以違反憲法保障生命權的意義 原則上也不能通過所謂創制這件事情來創造一個不需一致決的制度 因為這就是現狀"},{"start":2429.378,"end":2448.002,"text":"也不是透過複決來處理因為複決通常針對的是現在有的制度有所不滿我們給予人民這個空間去做這個事情所以有以上的認數就是希望我希望我們今天真的有結果不要又送院會搞不好我們真的可以有默契剛剛張綺凱委員也說了我真的也有這個期待以上謝謝主席"},{"start":2450.534,"end":2459.191,"text":"好 謝謝我們再補充介紹葛盧軍委員 林倩琦委員那請問各位委員是否還有要補充說明好 王委員"},{"start":2460.489,"end":2486.521,"text":"好謝謝主席做簡短的說明第一個就是我們兩個公投案是不是是民進黨團口中所謂的會議無效因為事實上在之前也是在這個會議是我們針對就是由院長來主持的這個協商會那一天包括我們所提出來的就是相關的復議案"},{"start":2487.301,"end":2489.523,"text":"還有就是民進黨團也提出所謂的會議無效但是當天民進黨團總召就坐在陳培餘書記長位置旁邊那他自行撤回所以沒有所謂會議無效因為"},{"start":2503.976,"end":2525.969,"text":"自行撤回第二點就是說我們的公投主文其實非常清楚就是你是否同意各級法院和議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決那其實大家都知道我們現在名為維持死刑但是因為法院必須各級法院必須一致決事實上已經達到了這個實質性的廢死"},{"start":2528.63,"end":2551.565,"text":"特別是最近 大家也知道就是馬國的女大生她之前被強制性交 然後被殺死這個案子事實上之前也速度判處死刑但是在憲法法庭做出必須要一致決的時候事實上她是速度被撤 也就被撤銷了她的死刑"},{"start":2553.306,"end":2560.152,"text":"所以驗證之前大家所關心所質疑的高度的認為其實這樣的一個憲法的判決事實上已經達成了就變成了我們實質廢死所以我覺得這樣一個至關這麼多民眾關心的而且很多受害人家屬也非常關心的特別是"},{"start":2579.386,"end":2591.729,"text":"認為應該仍然維持死刑而不應該變成實質廢死在我們全台灣也有八成以上的支持者所以我們認為應該交付給所有的人民來做公投以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們再補充介紹張志倫委員及東嘉賓委員那接下來我們請郭益群委員發言"},{"start":2604.765,"end":2632.952,"text":"我再次提醒就是3月25號當天其實6點就是應該是整個所有的當天議程結束的一個時間點但是7點20分這個韓國瑜院長呼吸室的入場進行不合法不合規的一個會議那當天的這個兩個公投一個就是反廢死一個就是反戒嚴那我先講一下就是關於所謂的這個公投法是2003年制定的這第二條規定全國性的公投的範圍是包含法律的覆決"},{"start":2633.692,"end":2660.841,"text":"立法原則的創制以及重大政策的創制跟覆決那這個當時其實在立法的時候其實他刻意不包含所謂的憲法的修正案那這個部分我提醒大家就是在2003年那個時候其實台灣政治高度的分化的一個時期那當時的這個所謂的這個朝野對於所謂的公投的一個範圍跟權限他們有非常激烈的一個爭議"},{"start":2661.961,"end":2682.072,"text":"那當然也很怕碰觸到所謂的這個比較敏感的一個議題導致政治的一個不穩定跟兩岸的緊張所以那個時候其實原因就在於這個憲法修正案的程序應該是屬於中華民國憲法增修條文直接規範是屬於更高位階的一個法律的程序"},{"start":2682.523,"end":2706.481,"text":"那根據這個憲法徵修條文的第一條跟第十二條這個修憲必須要經過立法院的提案四分之一的立委連署四分之三的立委出席四分之三的同意之後提交全民覆決那投票率必須要高達百分之五十以上而且要同意票要過半那這種分軌的一個設計主要就是為了要確保憲法作為國家根本大法的一個穩定性"},{"start":2707.362,"end":2723.064,"text":"避免透過一般公投程序輕易改變憲法進而影響國家的體制跟核心的一個價值那我想這個立法的當年立法的一個妥協後來是把這個所謂的憲法的修正是排除在公投法的適用範圍之外"},{"start":2724.526,"end":2752.644,"text":"那總括一句就是這個案子的本身本質上其實不但是違法違憲而且當天我們的會議其實是違規的更有可能會造成社會的一個動盪跟司法制度的一個傷害那也別忘了其實我們最近一次的死刑執行是在1月16號的槍決那這是最近在今年度1月16號我們才有執行槍決這樣子的一個事實的存在"},{"start":2753.089,"end":2756.361,"text":"所以廢死基本上我個人認為它就是一個假議題 以上"},{"start":2759.595,"end":2783.764,"text":"好 謝謝 那剛剛張七開委員有舉手 那張七開委員請發言今天氣氛不錯 蠻期待像培宇剛剛講的今天可以不要民進黨又反對變成要凍結一個月如果同意的話 後期就可以像我們上次朝野協商一下柯總召撤回案子之後我們可以讓這個案子順利的通過剛剛培宇提了一個很重要的你說這個案子是利用高費時的高支持度 沒有錯啊"},{"start":2784.764,"end":2809.219,"text":"台灣的民調每次都把八成以上反對這個廢死啊民進黨要選擇跟高明義對撞嗎?如果民眾都是主張廢死的民進黨真的要杯葛這個案子嗎?第二更重要的這個案子清清楚楚寫的死刑判決需不需要經過核議庭的一致決現在民眾從八成到九成反對的最主要就是這個"},{"start":2810.424,"end":2839.382,"text":"因為如果要求一字決 就等於是實質廢死了經過一審 二審到三審要一字決 十幾位法官怎麼可能呢那就變成是一個實質廢死所以請民進黨也看一下這個你們要挑戰說死刑判決以後真的還是一定要維持變成是何義廷一字決嗎 請你們把它看清楚那另外民進黨團剛剛提到說3月25號的那個會議到底 宴會那個到底有沒有效有啊 上次你們本來在朝野協商你們本來要提案"},{"start":2840.342,"end":2863.221,"text":"後來那天我拍了桌柯總裁不是說所有案子都撤回去了嗎你們等於承認那天會議已經有效啦怎麼今天又突然來提好不好所以我再次的呼籲不要跟高明義對撞那第二個請你們看清楚這個公投案公投案的這個內容第三個3月25號這個會議是有效的很期待今天我們一團和氣就通過讓這個案子趕快通過然後讓全民一起來做公投 謝謝"},{"start":2865.312,"end":2878.962,"text":"謝謝 那因為我是提案人嘛 那我這邊補充一下因為剛剛大家可能有誤會提案的內容我們提案內容不是說就那個可不可以執行死刑公投 不是這個所以二月的那個 他是就已經判決確定的"},{"start":2880.509,"end":2908.483,"text":"的那個執行者去執行是被執行者去執行那個是以前已經判決確定那我們今天討論的是法院的法官需不需要一致決才能判死刑這兩個議題不太一樣所以那個二月執行死刑那個案子其實跟我們今天的議題是不同這邊就簡單跟各位委員報告一下好那接下來請問還有好那鍾委員唉其實齁這個公民投票啊今年就是8月23號"},{"start":2909.898,"end":2937.551,"text":"那8月23號之前立法院發生什麼事情我們都很難講是不是蔣恩市長又說要倒閣要解散國會要全面改選到時候如果遇到這種情況立法院根據公民投票法第15條第二項的規定所提出來的那要怎麼樣去執行其實陳儒一開始之前很多委員或者當時這個案子在提出來的時候就提醒說這個公投提案的主文說"},{"start":2938.692,"end":2950.414,"text":"您是否同意各級法院和議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決的政策政策這是個政策嗎"},{"start":2954.69,"end":2981.197,"text":"判處死刑要不要一字決這不是個政策但是它是可以透過立法我們目前的主席本身是檢察官出身的合庭法官判處死刑如果要要求為一字決那刑事訴訟法當中就可以規定所以本院大可就相關法律案的修法去要求達到這樣的規定"},{"start":2983.786,"end":3011.286,"text":"去做更改這不是一個政策那在歧視呢我們說一下那如果說是根據第15條第二項那它的一個是指什麼其實前面郭榮有提到了這是根據公投法的第二條第二項的第三款第三款寫什麼呢就是寫立法院根據這個就是重大政策的創制或覆決"},{"start":3012.472,"end":3033.237,"text":"那麼因為你寫的你要適用這個第二條第二項第三款要用的是政策的創制或覆決所以把這樣的一個立法上應該與法律規定的事項形容為政策而根據這樣的一個方式來提交公民投票那我們來看一看請大家翻譯一下"},{"start":3034.636,"end":3047.367,"text":"我們的公投法第15條第二項它是給誰用的它寫得很清楚是立法院對於第二條第二項第三款任有提出公民投票之必要者"},{"start":3048.618,"end":3074.367,"text":"附具主文理由書那麼經立法院院會通過10日內來交給主管機關辦理公民投票下面這一段請特別注意不是用第9條到第13條以及第17條第一項第三款和第19條的規定請問大家知道第9條到第13條講的是什麼程序嗎"},{"start":3075.78,"end":3095.641,"text":"講的是如果不是由立法院提出的公民投票就必須經由中選會通過對於公民投票的包括提案主文的審查這麼明顯的一個完全不合邏輯的主文由立法院多數黨來提出其目的就是要規避"},{"start":3096.762,"end":3123.366,"text":"這一個條文就是由中選會扮演對人民發起的公民投票它所為的必要之審查而且第17條第一項關於同條款的第三款那就是什麼指的就是如果說這個由我們立法院所提出來的那這裡面呢關於對於政府機關對於公民投票提出的意見書也不用放了"},{"start":3125.114,"end":3149.711,"text":"一個刑事訴訟法的意見書不需要司法院表示意見嗎公民有可能在司法院或法務部應該是司法院沒有提具意見下公民如果去做判斷呢那更有意思的是第19條第19條如果大家願意看一下是說如果由立法院提出的公民投票他不是用第19條第19條是什麼"},{"start":3152.293,"end":3167.492,"text":"創制案或法律之覆決案於公告前如今立法機關實現了創制或覆決之目的通知主管機關主管機關就要停止公民投票的進行並含之提案人之領先人"},{"start":3168.612,"end":3187.039,"text":"意思就是說,如果是一般非立法院提出的公民投票,如果立法院趕快的凡然悔悟,趕快的來修法,公民投票就不要老是動動去執行了所以我要在這裡提醒各位其他黨團的成員,今日一旦是根據公投法第15條第二項的規定來發動"},{"start":3188.89,"end":3217.917,"text":"連第19條的撤回的機會都沒有撤回的機會是什麼他說只要由立法機關實現創製獲補決的目的有沒有告訴大家立法機關可以實現目前提案主文裡面所謂的各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不需一致決立法院是可以透過立法去達成這個目的的是可以達成這個目的的情況之下就不需要去進行公民投票可以停止公民投票的執行啊"},{"start":3218.697,"end":3245.592,"text":"各位 大家在浪費 耗費的什麼樣的社會成本不是今天主席站出來我們在這裡講話的時間成本我在這裡講話的同時要提醒主席跟其他黨的成員一旦我們目前這個主文 這個決議文未來提交表決 提交討論表決通過那麼根據15條第二項的規定就完全沒有19條適用的餘地縱使在這之前 誠如各位有期待的我們透過修法達成了這樣的內容"},{"start":3247.014,"end":3259.585,"text":"也是要全國國民在8月23號大家出來跑一趟投一個無謂的公投我是說退一萬步講如果修法可以達成這個內容的目的的話今天一經發動是不可收回的強調兩點15條第二項是讓中央選舉委員會沒有辦法就公投法的主文來進行審查"},{"start":3272.577,"end":3292.06,"text":"第二沒有辦法讓司法院根據這樣的程序內容提出他們的相對意見第三縱使未來由國會多數黨通過這樣的修法案8月23號這樣的一個荒唐的無效的多餘的公民投票要勞煩全台灣的公民出來投一招"},{"start":3293.581,"end":3321.419,"text":"這個相較之下 我還覺得目前在討論的一些可能未來本屆的立法院 現在是子一屆我們可以執行 執行到什麼時候 還在未定之數呢請大家不要做出一個自己都沒有辦法負責而要求全民公民陪你玩的一個決定 以上好 謝謝 那我們補充介紹王育民委員我們剛剛有提到說各黨團是輪流發言那國民黨跟民眾黨現在是沒有舉手嘛那沒有要發言"},{"start":3322.372,"end":3348.939,"text":"有是不是因為我們剛剛是有預計說輪流發言那是不是王委員講完之後如果民眾黨沒有發言就換郭委員發言不好意思因為我們剛剛有說是輪流發言好來請王委員好謝謝主席各位委員大家好我想我們今天來討論的是反對實質廢死的公投很遺憾剛剛聽到這個民進黨的委員說這個是一個沒有意義的公投我跟各位報告"},{"start":3349.879,"end":3367.633,"text":"在这个中华人权协会跟台湾审议民主协会去年9月18号他们就做了一个公布死刑存废的审议民主的调查结果反对废除死刑的比例高达80.2%支持废死的比例只有9.2%"},{"start":3370.035,"end":3393.967,"text":"所以反對廢除死刑反對實質廢死我想這個是真正台灣人民的意見跟聲音但是很遺憾這件事情在去年九月的憲法法庭他卻罔顧了民意跟我們法律上面的情感他特別去加嚴了整個實質審判一定要一致決"},{"start":3394.929,"end":3417.387,"text":"那另外呢他也說要處於死刑叫做最嚴重之罪我請各位看一下這個之前發生在我們台灣社會非常慘絕人寰的新竹輪胎縱火案這個一把火燒死的是八個家人的性命而這件事情加害人陳彥祥他當時呢這個地院"},{"start":3417.867,"end":3447.627,"text":"他其實是處以死刑的但是在憲法法庭宣告這個宣判之後呢最高法院說陳彥祥不符合情節最嚴重之罪而且案發當時符合自首減刑要件所以從死刑蓋為無期徒刑一下子8條人命請問如果殺害了8條人命不是最嚴重之罪什麼才是最嚴重之罪"},{"start":3448.307,"end":3473.805,"text":"而當時的馬來西亞女大生案她遭受到這個非常殘暴的性侵致死這樣的一個案件大家民意沸騰那一樣也是這個一審二審跟一審都是判處死刑但是最高法院發回更審那在這樣的情況底下加上台灣的民意我們現在普遍多數都還是支持維持死刑的情況那這當然"},{"start":3475.666,"end":3498.416,"text":"我們沒有辦法讓這個憲法法庭他這樣一個解釋就要讓很多的死刑犯逃脫了死刑因此這樣一個公投是非常的有意義的而國民黨我們作為負責任的在野黨我們提出了這項公投就是要讓全國的民意再次透過公投再次透過投票"},{"start":3499.156,"end":3520.286,"text":"告訴憲法法庭的法官你們去年這樣的一個解釋讓很多的死刑犯逃過了死刑這一件事情台灣民眾應該是沒有辦法接受的那請民進黨也不要害怕其實公投不是洪水猛獸過去你們在野的時候不要忘了你們的先進"},{"start":3521.286,"end":3549.842,"text":"就是在力唱公投法那這個公投法就是讓人民的聲音表達出來而已它真的不是洪水猛獸當然我也反對在公投法上面去說哪一個公投是沒有價值跟意義的那這個難道是要去貶抑我們人民的力量跟聲音嗎所以過去民進黨不要忘記你們在倡議公投的時候都說公投就是讓人民當家作主"},{"start":3550.242,"end":3566.031,"text":"我們就是尊重人民是頭家這個也是你們最近常常在講的所以我覺得公投案就是我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的社會所有的公投案只要符合公投法他有提出那應該就要尊重"},{"start":3566.811,"end":3593.973,"text":"這樣子的一個公投案的成立而且中選會也必須依法來舉辦就讓台灣的民意展現然後告訴現在的執政者真正的民意到底是在哪裡國民黨我們反對實質的廢死我們也很負責任的提出這樣的公投我們就讓台灣的民眾一起來投票823一起來投票然後展現真正人民基層的力量以上 謝謝"},{"start":3596.616,"end":3598.758,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在請郭委員發言我要補充的就是說剛剛我講的那個1月16號最近一次執行槍決的這個死刑犯在1月15號的時候性侵殺害剛剛其實這個委員也特別提到就是馬來西亞的這個女學生的這個案他這一審是宣判死刑那吃毒公權終身"},{"start":3621.536,"end":3648.198,"text":"那也成為這個死刑釋憲之後維持死刑的一個判決雖然他在4月18號其實就是發揮在更審但是司法的程序當中本來就是可以一直在上訴的那這個我就不用特別多講但是我要講的是如果是用情緒操弄取代理性的對話我想這個死刑的存廢的問題一直都會是挑戰的這個社會的對話跟價值的一個主流的工具"},{"start":3648.838,"end":3666.191,"text":"那我想這個部分呢希望不要淪為所謂的政治的一個操弄那這個部分呢當然除了破壞司法制度的一個正當的程序的一個保障然後再次的提醒死刑其實是不可逆的一個急刑在任何的程序的保障其實都要避免所謂的冤案的產生"},{"start":3667.252,"end":3691.902,"text":"所以我說這個不可不勝但是我還是要再回歸到所謂的當天3月25號這場不合規也是不合法的一個會議在6點之前沒有主席沒有進來到議場宣布延長會議的同時為什麼7點20分的這個會議我們必須要坐在這個地方來講這件事情以上"},{"start":3695.263,"end":3700.22,"text":"還有哪一位國民黨或民眾黨有沒有要發言那沒有的話請問民進黨這邊"},{"start":3702.163,"end":3731.226,"text":"主席我想要回覆一下剛剛王委員提到的所謂撤案協商的事情喔事實上我們當天是撤回這個協商標的也就是只是讓他標的不再存在我們只是在當天沒有協商這件事情而已但是事實上在那天協商之前我們就已經有針對這個違法會議有對韓國瑜院長還有周萬蘭秘書長我們有一個紀律案的提出那我們也親自到院長辦公室去送案喔那"},{"start":3731.886,"end":3760.655,"text":"我們當天撤除這個協商的標的並不認同我們並不認為對不起並不代表我們認同當天禮拜二3月25號禮拜二7點20才召開的會議是一個合法的會議所以我們而且我要再次強調我們不僅送出了紀律的提案到目前為止韓國瑜院長周恩來秘書長都沒有積極的處理也沒有給予回應那到目前為止我們也沒有撤回對那個紀律案的提案"},{"start":3761.135,"end":3765.779,"text":"我再次強調 我們只有在當天撤回所謂的協商標的 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那請問國民黨跟民眾黨沒有要發言的話 林委員剛才國眾兩黨都一直在講說我們"},{"start":3781.354,"end":3799.333,"text":"事實上是高明義在支持死刑那我就覺得那為什麼還要公投而且這個台灣事實上是有死刑的我們並沒有廢除死刑那這是一個事實所以113年的憲判制的第八號的判決認為死刑作為刑法本身和憲"},{"start":3800.322,"end":3816.072,"text":"第二 該死人當然應該要判死大法官認為刑法必須符合憲法的罪者原則或者罪行相當原則 犯什麼罪就給予什麼樣的處罰郭殺人或者是故意殺人所受的處罰必須有所區別"},{"start":3818.813,"end":3843.728,"text":"並故意殺人儘管結果皆為被害者死亡但過程當中使用的手段的殘忍程度跟犯罪者的心智狀態都應該在法官量刑的時候一併做考量而且依據綜合考量的結果來給予符合該犯刑的處罰所以故意殺人者最重得處死刑可是對於尚未達到犯罪情節屬最嚴重的個案的標準的人"},{"start":3844.438,"end":3867.079,"text":"則大可以判他10年20年所以對此我們要做的事是那些規定違死刑的條文是不是應該剝奪是不是會剝奪掉法官量刑的一個權利該不該修正的問題第三呢該不該死要有嚴謹的審判所以大法官認為死刑判決的時候要非常謹慎不可以濫殺無辜"},{"start":3867.859,"end":3895.84,"text":"那所以在判決書裡邊的確提出來了一些要求甚至各級法官合憲法庭必須一致同意的來判處死刑那這是要用比較嚴謹的正當的法律程序來避免個人主觀所造成的原因避免濫殺那第四如果法官判錯最後是不是全民要承擔結果今天國民黨的提案將造成我們宣判死刑的"},{"start":3896.7,"end":3920.349,"text":"標準降低在地方法院一審核議庭的時候跟高等法院只有兩個人可做死刑判那到最高法院三個人便可決定不管被告是否犯刑重大民眾會覺得在這樣的一個機制底下做出來的死刑判決太過草率嗎所以判處的最後還是整個社會要付出很高的代價"},{"start":3922.368,"end":3942.041,"text":"當下我們支持廢死的人對於法院判死刑判決的質疑正是認為法院輕判的死刑判決造成冤獄的機率太高要擬平反廢死的爭議只有讓整個程序優化來更謹慎地做出判決"},{"start":3943.522,"end":3967.811,"text":"所以我覺得國民黨是來亂的啦國民黨今天提出來這個提案意圖不是在為台灣建立一個更嚴謹的司法程序彌平爭議而是希望台灣社會繼續讓廢死跟反廢死這兩群善良的人發生爭執造成撕裂再把一切的結果丟到執政黨身上如果真的為台灣好就請收回提案 謝謝"},{"start":3973.445,"end":3997.294,"text":"民進黨什麼時候變成這麼怕公投了而且民進黨還要選擇繼續維持實質廢死嗎剛剛民進黨發言的幾位代表都知道說台灣是高度的多數的人反對實質廢死那你為什麼還是選擇一條跟高民力對撞的路呢"},{"start":3999.258,"end":4026.698,"text":"為什麼要這樣選擇呢?包括剛剛提的你們為什麼對公投是洪水猛獸呢?讓人民來做個公決不是很好的這件事情嗎?民進黨過去提了多少個公投案啊?就你們現在一直在汙名化公投那你們把以前的案子都撤回去以後民進黨都不要提公投了嗎?今天的公投案子非常的清楚死刑判決不須何議庭一致決他就是因為民意沸騰"},{"start":4028.123,"end":4052.056,"text":"人民本來八成的反對 face 到後來有九成那你們要選擇對撞 那就讓公民 讓民眾來決定啊為什麼要再擋咧你們一邊說 你都知道他是高民意的一個支持那為什麼要擋咧公投是長久你們主張的我告訴你們啊 以前你們有一個最有名的蔡公投啊民進黨以前口口聲聲贊成公投結果現在要剝奪人民公投的權利嗎請民進黨三思"},{"start":4055.765,"end":4069.375,"text":"而且另外我再補充一個你們在講這個3月25號這個開會這個議程當天國民黨跟民眾黨的立委都進場去拉我們經過一個正常的程序法定的程序完成了這個會議的這個議程"},{"start":4070.996,"end":4094.799,"text":"然後上次協商就坐在這邊啊你們提的案子確實自己都撤回去了嘛那天我拍完之後我以為柯建民醒來啦那撤回去大家都認為已經結案了今天又拿出來講只是為了把這個公投案擋住嗎已經結案的事情為什麼一直在講不要再找藉口我覺得你們現在是跟民意跟這個高支持度的這個民意在對撞請大家看一下這次的公投案的內容好不好"},{"start":4095.419,"end":4118.999,"text":"可能的話我還是苦口婆心建議你們民進黨不要再反對讓這個案子可以順利的通過 謝謝因為待會還有那個王委員還有鍾委員發言那因為今天對的我們等一下都會讓大家發言那因為今天好像也都沒有共識是不是說待會兩位發言完之後除非還有人還要繼續發言啦不然是不是說"},{"start":4120.18,"end":4140.572,"text":"如果大家都沒有共識,我們待會在兩位委員發言完畢後結束,還是有誰還要繼續發言也可以沒有沒有,我們是那個政黨這樣輪著啊對,林委員完,後來就張委員,張委員完,王委員,然後再中委員對啊,剛剛是這樣啊好,那就麻煩王委員"},{"start":4142.702,"end":4159.575,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位委員因為我們今天的協商那因為我覺得還是要留下記錄所以有些事情我覺得還是必須以闡明就是有關於我們在院會裡面處理兩項公投案"},{"start":4160.436,"end":4183.176,"text":"是根據立法院議事規則第22條來處理這個議事規則寫得非常非常清楚我們開會時間是上午的9點到下午6點但是在質詢的程序中呢質詢的時候呢 它是把它延長到質詢結束"},{"start":4184.477,"end":4204.122,"text":"所以當天確實是他的議程裡面是有種質詢所以這個其實包含這個院長也好或者是這個我們的秘書長也好立法院秘書長也好都已經說過很多次所以有沒有意識這個會議無效並不是民進黨說了算"},{"start":4209.223,"end":4220.308,"text":"而且剛才我也特別提到在4月8號的時候是由民進黨黨團的總召柯建民總召主動撤回這項協商"},{"start":4222.796,"end":4247.436,"text":"那第二是刚才必须也回应一下民进党的同仁讲到公投就是你支持这个公投我觉得大家可以各有论述但是公投本来就是法定的民主程序本来就是法定民主程序结果竟然可以讲说国民党提公投案是来乱的"},{"start":4248.217,"end":4261.974,"text":"我覺得如果今天按照法定的民主程序來提公投案變成是來亂的我不曉得民進黨的一個所謂的民主的素養在哪裡"},{"start":4263.277,"end":4279.898,"text":"然後說我們提出這個公投是來增加社會對立不要忘記是憲法法庭所做的一個判決使得民眾對於Face的疑慮因此而升高"},{"start":4280.899,"end":4307.083,"text":"所以我們才有必要讓民眾讓公民來執行他們的一個權利所以我必須要講就是說針對公投案這樣的論述大家同不同意可以各抒己見但是請對基本的法定的民主程序請對基本的公民權利要有一定的尊重以上"},{"start":4309.891,"end":4333.588,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言好 謝謝主席 我因為要確認一下大家手上都有拿到我們這個關係文書如果沒有拿到的 因為我的發言需要透過關係文書來說明在場的人如果沒有關係文書可能我的說明 你看 就紛紛要離開了因為主席已經預告了 這個結論沒有結論我是很希望 現在還在看轉播的人看一下"},{"start":4334.409,"end":4349.98,"text":"立法院的官新聞書國民黨提出的憲法法庭釋字113號 憲判8號 它怎麼寫它說法院組織法就主文第一項案件未明定因經何穎婷法官之一字訣 使得科除死刑"},{"start":4352.299,"end":4363.796,"text":"與憲法保障人民生命權與正當法律程序原則之意旨有違他說明什麼他說明說大法官認為如果說我們要"},{"start":4365.211,"end":4383.332,"text":"對判處死刑要一致判決這應該要定在法院組織法裡面明文規定那麼這樣子才能有所依循而且憲判還說那麼有關機關憲判日二年內依本判決一旨修正事實誰啊司法院"},{"start":4386.394,"end":4410.112,"text":"要對法院組織法提出或者說立法院要就法院組織法將這個部分依照憲判的內容予以落實在法條在裡面今天立法院捨自己的法定義務職權捨憲判八號不由憲判八號113憲判八號他的地位跟什麼一樣跟4至748號解釋文一樣"},{"start":4412.213,"end":4429.058,"text":"我們當年因為婚姻平權司法院做了4-748號的一個解釋文於是立法院盡他的義務通過了行政院提出的4-748號施行法"},{"start":4430.118,"end":4445.514,"text":"這就是充分的說明了這個裡面說的憲法的分權原則立法權有義務就憲判或大法官解釋在兩年內要修正這樣的法律條文"},{"start":4446.414,"end":4469.553,"text":"如果真的在野黨尊重大法官尊重憲法的話就應該要在兩年內或者是由司法院提出司法院組織法法院組織法或者說是由立法院自己提出通過根據憲判意旨的修正條文結果在野黨不由此圖他講了說明的第三點再唸給大家聽他說"},{"start":4472.864,"end":4500.518,"text":"程序問題應該是由具有民意基礎的立法院來決定而非毫無民意基礎的大法官憑其個人價值而選的說得很好啊你如果認為大法官沒有民意基礎你認為應該由民意基礎的立法院來決定現在這個有關於判決死刑的程序問題就是要立法院你來修法啊國民黨的提案文的說明二跟說明三自打耳光啊"},{"start":4501.513,"end":4520.004,"text":"一方面完全無視於1.13宪判八號要求相關機關必須在兩年內就這個程序上的問題提出修法再方面他在第三點又說你大法官沒有民意基礎我立法院才有民意基礎那你有民意基礎你又不修法那你在幹嘛"},{"start":4523.618,"end":4544.404,"text":"所以我就覺得說國民黨這個提案真的是奇聞共欣賞啊今天他們都不在啦大概知道我要念這一段啦都跑掉啦現在就全國大家在看這個直播的人就知道啊因為可能現場畫面前面就在看我們直播的人可能不曉得立法院關係文書這院總第21號委員提案第11010136號"},{"start":4547.796,"end":4567.254,"text":"大家看一下 上網去看一下 提案說明的說明二跟說明三自打耳光 自己帶多職責 還好一直在那邊縮嘴我今天沒有要去討論當時這個提案通過的立法院有沒有落實我們的議事常規我也不談所謂的死刑的執行 因為我的程序應該如何規定"},{"start":4568.115,"end":4596.876,"text":"我只談113憲判八字號明文的要求權責機關要在兩年內就程序的部分予以明確規定才不會抵觸憲法保障人權在剝奪相關人生命權的時候必須遵循的相關的法律程序要旨憲判八號明明白白的告訴相關主管機關你要做這個事情結果立法院的多數黨一方面奚落憲法法庭不具民意基礎一方面又說自己才是有民意基礎的有修法權利的"},{"start":4597.984,"end":4599.609,"text":"那你有修法權利 你又不修"},{"start":4600.802,"end":4629.63,"text":"你不修法 你要大家公民投票 你是在幹什麼更不用說你們現在通過的15條公投法第15條第二項的規定成為我剛剛講的三點理由選委會沒有辦法就這樣的公圖主文給予審查意見第二 司法院沒有辦法就法院組織法應該如何來調整這個部分提出意見第三 就算是未來我們修法有落實了這個部分今年8月23號如果這個東西通過的話全民還要做一場無謂的公民投票"},{"start":4630.666,"end":4631.126,"text":"好 那接下來是"},{"start":4656.175,"end":4672.1,"text":"請郭委員發言要不然回答一下要是你不是在台下就跑掉了我的回答就是看不懂回去多看幾次那就麻煩郭委員發言"},{"start":4674.929,"end":4701.379,"text":"那我我我好主席我最后一个那就好谢谢主席虽然对面的国民党还有民众党委员都已经离开了但是我还是要主席谢谢主席我很快把它讲完3月25号当天呢他们说那天是进行总质询所以按照那个议事规则呢是可以进行研会的我们来说要怎么样可以延长会议呢必须要在6点钟以前有人就是有立法会员提出相关提案"},{"start":4702.574,"end":4717.925,"text":"要延長會議我們知道那一天呢黃國昌委員他有提出一個臨時提案要延長會議時間但是很不好意思這個是黑箱提案桌面下的提案因為沒有人看到而且主席也沒有進來宣讀也沒有進行表決這是第一個"},{"start":4718.445,"end":4737.673,"text":"第二個一直到當天六點以前呢韓國瑜院長都沒有走進來宣布要延長會議時間就靜置的決定偷偷摸摸延長會議時間更可笑的是呢當天到底是進行到哪一趴其實當天只有進行到討論事項之前根本都還沒有進入總諮詢喔所以如果剛剛王紅薇委員不好意思她又不在"},{"start":4738.473,"end":4757.518,"text":"如果王宏威委員堅持當天是總質詢那請你回頭去看一下當天的IVOD直播根本是只有進行到討論事項之前所以我們還要再次強調當天3月25號通過這兩個公投提案它就是一個空殼公投當天的會議就是一個違法會議而當天會議所進行出來的表決就是一個非法表決謝謝"},{"start":4759.358,"end":4779.629,"text":"主席 再一次 抱歉好 請說抱歉 好請說剛剛說民進黨要剝奪人民公投的權利我想我們根本就沒有修公投法何來剝奪人民公投的權益我們很認真地在面對我們不是怕公投我們怕的是沒有邏輯 沒有腦袋 沒有意義的公投浪費民脂民膏的公投 浪費人民時間的公投謝謝"},{"start":4780.569,"end":4788.014,"text":"好 謝謝 那本日協商過程公開那發言內容都已經錄音錄影並列入紀錄"},{"start":4792.366,"end":4819.108,"text":"不是啦 你看不懂我沒有必要解釋給你聽啦因為我跟你講 我跟你共識一年多了你的作風我很了解啦我沒有說好不好 我只是說我很了解喔好 因人代繼續溝通取得共識那後續依立法院執行新政法第十二章相關規定已請院長召開黨團協商會議進行協商好 謝謝各位 散會好了 好了 好了"},{"start":4823.108,"end":4824.09,"text":"好好好好了好了"}]}},{"id":"160595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e556f7dfd6de266dd218c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8d374e8c2d51edcf395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:32:12 - 09:35:37","影片長度":"00:03:25","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:32:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:35:37+08:00","duration":205,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.19846875,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.72534375,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.129718750000002,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.68346875,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.21284375,"end":201.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.93596875,"end":204.97784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.343,"end":14.851,"text":"好謝謝主席安排這次的這個修法過程本期提的是這個住宅法住宅法第四條修正的草案"},{"start":16.175,"end":40.77,"text":"主要是要給予婦嬰未成年子女家庭優先入住的權益第一個當然核心問題就是要點出我國現在真實面對的所謂少子女化的問題第二就是說我們的修法過程裡面希望說不影響原有的經濟或社會弱勢的比例因為現行法預有未成年子女兩年以上的家庭他是同時需要符合家庭總收入未超過主管機關公告一定標準的才可符合資格"},{"start":41.67,"end":66.745,"text":"但是我想為了鼓勵生育的部分應該要開放更多育有未成年子女的家庭來入住社宅那我想我國的新生兒人數統計大家也看到數據的確是一直往下降那本來大家也期待說去年理論上大家看好說能夠停止這個連續副成長的農年我想但是去年的結果還是一樣這個數字還是創下史上的新低那所以整個少子女化的主要問題在於晚婚跟不婚"},{"start":67.065,"end":89.162,"text":"那國人晚婚的趨勢明顯結婚率也持續下降當然影響生育人數那就其原因當然育兒大家不想結婚的還有原因就是說第一是高房價那後續當然教育費用土地支出等等的育兒成本也增加所以說家庭負擔也增重所以我們提出這麼多的政策我想最核心而且經費對各個別家庭對個人支出來講最龐大的就是房價的問題"},{"start":90.728,"end":110.348,"text":"那所以我的版本是將這個育有未滿12歲子女之家庭納入新的一個優先的比例50%那我是說不要從現行的事不是從社會現行的社會經濟弱勢的百分之四百分之四十裡面去來分出來而是另外在針對育有未滿12歲子女的部分來處理那我要特別強調的是我們的版本"},{"start":110.768,"end":127.877,"text":"不要不會影響原有的經濟或社會組織者的權益讓我們希望從這個社會素材的角度來出發給予這個未育有未成年子女的家庭更多的支持那這樣的修法好可能不見得我當然知道說不見得跟這個出生率有必然的關係但是我想任何政策"},{"start":128.477,"end":156.529,"text":"只要能够尝试我们在针对少子女化的部分都应该进行相关的尝试那现行法的部分当然现在是有规范育有未成年子女两人以上有优先权但是他因为还需要同时符合所谓家庭总收入会超过主管机关公告一定标准的才有资格所以他等于还是在所谓的经济社会弱势里面那我们看到说我们内政部提出的这个今天的这个书帖里面提到说担心了这个如果把这个所谓的"},{"start":156.949,"end":170.86,"text":"弱勢或者是經濟弱勢等等這個比例過高的話會有造成標籤標籤化的疑慮我想正是要回應所謂標籤化疑慮我們更應該讓更多的所有育有未成年子女的家庭能夠入住社會住宅"},{"start":172.461,"end":200.813,"text":"在社會的定義裡面並不僅只是提供所謂社會弱勢者居住他還提供了多數的育有未成年子女的家庭能夠入住我想這樣也有效的能夠來解決所謂標籤化的問題那同時也能提供我國的這年輕人在這個住宅政策上面他能夠有個安身立命的地方我想他有安身立命的地方他才有可能去思考像不管是結婚或者是生子的問題所以以上我提出今天的修法請各位能夠支持謝謝"},{"start":202.998,"end":204.587,"text":"好 谢谢黄健"}]}},{"id":"160594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5b0d2c112adbd2afc18c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8d6c5db8da8e21e8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:29:09 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:29:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:32:05+08:00","duration":176,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.574093750000001,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.66721875,"end":87.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.75971875,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.53534375000001,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.27346875,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":154.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.07846875,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.59846875000002,"end":176.71221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.751,"end":23.736,"text":"主席還有在座的各位官員媒體先生女士大家好本席這一次提出社會住宅出租這個與住宅法第4條條文修正草案那主要的修法重點有兩個一個呢就是要提高給出"},{"start":24.296,"end":47.101,"text":"提高出租给经济社会弱势的比例从40%提高到50%一个呢则是要放宽要件降低育有未成年子女的子女人数不以育有未成年子女两人以上为限制那本席考量的理由呢有两个第一个就是目前房价高涨许多"},{"start":47.921,"end":51.823,"text":"年輕人還有經濟弱勢社會弱勢的民眾他們買不起房甚至也租不起房屋那麼期待能夠租到社會住宅我們知道我們目前台灣推動社會住宅政策主要目的就是要保障國民的居住權益以落實居住正義那政府在日前也勇敢的提出了121年"},{"start":73.554,"end":87.232,"text":"社会住宅的规划目标是50万户包括要设宅新办25万户与包租代管25万户那么中央和地方机关也都很努力的要去新建社会住宅"},{"start":89.077,"end":107.191,"text":"推动包租贷款那么因此呢本席主张要提高社会住宅提供出租给经济或社会弱势的比率由现在至少40%的比率提高到至少50%的比率那么才能够照顾更多的人民"},{"start":108.612,"end":122.535,"text":"第二点理由就是少子化我们知道目前育有两胎家庭的户数是低于五成所以有必要放宽限制我国胎儿出生数是持续降低少子化的问题非常严重"},{"start":129.617,"end":154.094,"text":"从109年起出生率已经低于死亡数那么生不如死而且依照内政部护身师的统计10年来国人大部分都是只生育一胎所以从110年之后生育一胎的就已经超过五成了在此为了要保障育儿家庭的居住权益减轻国人养育幼儿的负担"},{"start":155.131,"end":172.379,"text":"本席因此提出修法不以欲有未成年子女兩人以上為限那麼降低就是未來只要是有生育一胎的家庭都可以申請住宅那麼在此提出修法那麼希望大家能夠共同支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160593","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160593","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e553e1ac632a07efad18c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8d024dc127ad5acba15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:25:44 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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:25:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:29:02+08:00","duration":198,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.941593750000001,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.13971875,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.66284375,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.185343750000001,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.488468750000003,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.14221875,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.32096875,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.70721875,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.32721875,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.71784375,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.88471875,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.79159375,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.90909375000001,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.65096875,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.58659375,"end":113.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.73471875000001,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.37409375000001,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.63096875000002,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.09909375,"end":135.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.24596875,"end":165.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.69284375,"end":171.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.15596875,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.32346875000002,"end":184.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.74471875,"end":187.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.01846875,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.92096875000001,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.65846875000003,"end":198.32909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.881,"end":14.885,"text":"主席各位委員各位列席的官員大家早安本次住宅法部分條文的修正主要"},{"start":15.615,"end":42.637,"text":"在回应房价高涨与少子化的挑战透过调整弱势标准完善申请平台强化税收激励以及资讯公开希望能够确实的促进社宅的资源合理的配置与弱势的保护所以第一个我们有关社会住宅市场环境严峻弱势族群住屋的权益呢亟待落实"},{"start":43.377,"end":62.711,"text":"所以对于这个近来全国住宅价格计指数的持续攀升房价上涨对弱势家庭带来沉重负担同时我国生育率下降少子化问题加剧使得住宅法第四条原条文中以"},{"start":63.786,"end":80.027,"text":"欲有未成年子女二人以上為弱勢的認定標準顯得不合時宜本席提案修正該條文為欲有未成年子女以擴大受惠對象讓更多弱勢家庭可以符合優先申請社會住宅的資格"},{"start":80.509,"end":109.031,"text":"以减轻住屋负担第二个建置社会住宅需求登记平台以利资源配置以及政策的执行现行社会住宅采个案完工后再开放申请导致资讯的掌握不足无法全面的统整全国的需求本席主张增订主管机关建置社会住宅需求登记平台要求所有有需求的民众可以先行注册"},{"start":109.611,"end":125.777,"text":"提交申请资料经审核后具申请资格此举既能简化申请流程避免民众重复填报也可令政府及时掌握需求动态促进资源合理配置与政策动态的调整"},{"start":126.457,"end":153.95,"text":"第三个鼓励民间的参与提供免税的诱因为了鼓励民间住宅所有权人积极参与设宅的供给本席提案对租金所得减免规定进行修正凡采用包租方式办理并作为长照身障托育服务或幼儿园使用者每屋每月租金收入的免税额度调升至从1.5万元调升至2.5万元"},{"start":155.126,"end":179.286,"text":"此措施可降低房东出租成本活络租屋市场实现市场与弱势需求的双向平衡同时维护税收公平最后第四点住宅市场资讯要透明政府要收集分析以及公布有鉴于住宅市场相关资讯透明度不足本席建议主管机关定期收集分析并且"},{"start":180.387,"end":195.334,"text":"公佈的資訊中新增租賃住宅市場不同的物件型態屋齡之每平均數與中位數的價格資訊以上敬請各位委員公決並支持此修正提案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160592","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160592","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5e8406a16e593be0918c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8dd8a29ef9c6792bc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:22:54 - 09:25:37","影片長度":"00:02:43","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:22:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:25:37+08:00","duration":163,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.48159375,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.016593750000006,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.32284375,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.62909375000001,"end":88.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.91159375000001,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.71659375,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.64284375,"end":163.21221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.526,"end":24.751,"text":"主席各位委員列席的官員今天我們討論的議題是關於社會住宅成豬特別是65歲以上高齡者及經濟弱勢群體的居住權保障那為了弱勢我國對這些群體的居住保障我提出了延長65歲以上"},{"start":27.152,"end":44.993,"text":"社會住宅承租者租令以及續租期限的修正提案同時建議將收入作為社會住宅租金的計價標準根據現行規定內政部新辦社會住宅出租辦法第11條規定社會住宅的租令以及"},{"start":46.294,"end":67.039,"text":"續租期間最長為12年但是考量全體國人平均壽命已經達79.84歲而且某些縣市甚至平均壽命高達83.75歲對於65歲以上的長者來說12年的最長租期可能不足以保障他們的居住需求尤其當長者年滿80歲的時候"},{"start":68.999,"end":87.781,"text":"搬遷不易那也是對社會住宅需求最大的時候卻可能面臨無法續租的困境因此我建議在住宅法第25條條文中甄列規定對65歲以上社會住宅成租者應與以例外延長租賃及續租的期限那"},{"start":88.999,"end":115.32,"text":"此外許多國家在推動社會住宅制度普遍是以可負擔租金作為租金的計價標準我們目前的地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園也開始採用以收入作為社會住宅租金的計算方式為了落實110年立法院修法的附帶決議我們應該明確規定社會住宅租金計算應該以成租者的收入為依據"},{"start":116.201,"end":141.599,"text":"我必須提醒啊依內政部的統計目前完工的社會住宅只有3萬多戶那到2031年底預計能夠完工的數量大概是10.2萬戶那即使是賴清德總統能夠連任任內預計會完工7萬戶所以平均每年還不到1萬戶那以這樣的速度如果要完成賴總統所提的25萬戶的目標那可能就是要再更努力了"},{"start":142.301,"end":159.497,"text":"那所以在社會住宅資源稀缺情況之下更應該透過修法來確保我們高齡者跟經濟弱勢群體能夠在社會住宅制度當中獲得更好的居住保障並能夠以更符合實際需求的方式繼續安住那以上謝謝大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e53a5e901f7de0dd9818c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8d8e32f538a164e72e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:18:35 - 09:22:47","影片長度":"00:04:12","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:18:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:22:47+08:00","duration":252,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.814718750000001,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.818468750000001,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.30721875,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.454093750000002,"end":26.507843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.419093750000002,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.181593750000005,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.040343750000005,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.14534375,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.68534375,"end":57.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":63.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.03784375000001,"end":66.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.68721875,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.96971875,"end":72.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.11221875000001,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.12471875,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":88.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.14721875000001,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.93596875,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.04096875,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.42034375,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.36534375000001,"end":108.04784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":113.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.66721875,"end":114.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.11846875,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.53534375000001,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.56471875000001,"end":125.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.49221875,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.17346875,"end":151.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.83409375000002,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.04034375,"end":157.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.18346875,"end":160.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.20409375,"end":176.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.36721875,"end":170.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.37471875,"end":180.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.40346875,"end":184.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.91346875000002,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.38471875000002,"end":197.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.35034375,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.06659375,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.05721875,"end":214.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.27596875,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.34096875,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.61346875,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.39346875,"end":248.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.15221875,"end":252.37971875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.581,"end":25.276,"text":"主席好 各位親愛的家人 大家早安本次我們台灣民眾黨團所提出的租宅法部分條文修正草案主要是基於以下三項核心事實與政策的需求第一 我國房價與租金雙雙高漲"},{"start":27.472,"end":42.039,"text":"居住压力日增加剧根据主机总数资料截止113年第一季全国住宅价格指标已达到140.82"},{"start":51.865,"end":72.744,"text":"比我们11年同期上涨21.4%同时113年6月租金指标更升了106.34%民众买不起租不起的处境已非个案"},{"start":74.178,"end":91.692,"text":"而是廣泛常態這對社會經濟弱勢的族群更是重大的壓力也直接衝擊家庭對未來信心與生意的意願第二社會住宅政策執行"},{"start":93.188,"end":119.39,"text":"量体也提升了但制度配套仍有不足政府虽然设施2021年达成50万户租载社会租载的模式目标为社会租载谁租得起谁申请得到呢仍然制度设计的空闲因此我们主张"},{"start":121.677,"end":125.003,"text":"將出租於禁忌或社會弱勢"},{"start":126.55,"end":151.158,"text":"折的比例提高甚至50%最少50%明确张意有未成年子女纳入优先成租的对象回应少子化国安的危机建立中央社会租债需求登记平台提升政策依据科学性还有及时性"},{"start":152.895,"end":180.025,"text":"要求中央地方定期檢視並落實可負擔租金的原則確保弱勢租得起第三推動社會租宅信辦模式多元化提升效率與公益我們修正建議包括如下名列區段的徵收市地種化"},{"start":181.545,"end":208.175,"text":"设载用地取得机制强化包租贷款政策每年包租比例至少50余元者却优先保障弱势家庭的入住鼓励民间参与并提供税收优惑如包租房东可以享每月最高3万免税金"},{"start":210.117,"end":231.488,"text":"我們深知社會住宅不只是一間房而是政府對人民居住安全的基本承諾是年輕家庭敢於生意的穩定支撐更是實現居住正義的核心基石因此我們誠懇呼應"},{"start":233.949,"end":248.202,"text":"各位委員支持本次的修法讓社會住宅回歸政策的初衷照顧弱勢減輕家庭負擔強化國安基礎謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"160590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5d9a810af9dc459ad18c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8df80bfb6e838a57535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:16:03 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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:16:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:18:29+08:00","duration":146,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.68471875,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.558468750000003,"end":137.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.08096875,"end":144.66659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.407,"end":29.255,"text":"謝謝趙偉我是原住民族主任選出來的民意代表在這裡呢我理應要幫我們族人爭取最大的權益今天委員會也列席了也希望你們天天看我的提案說明好不好那目前說全台灣呢大概有超過六成五的原住民族的人口是居住在都市但是呢都市的原住民族在法律跟政策的設計當中是長期被忽視的甚至他的保障是極為有限這不僅違背了原住民族基本法第28條"},{"start":30.475,"end":48.161,"text":"保障原住民族居住權的明文規定這也凸顯了現行的住宅法在面對多元居住的需求上面的制度是有落差的因此本次的住宅法的修法正是為了要彌補這個缺口所以我有幾點要跟大家說明一下第一點是"},{"start":48.921,"end":69.613,"text":"針對制度的不平衡我們要要求主管機關協力來推動一定比例以上來供原住民成豬的社會住宅並且要新增投資的手段靈活運用原住民族綜合發展基金來提升政策的效率實質回應都市原住民族的住房困境"},{"start":70.253,"end":74.558,"text":"第二個就是我們將住宅中提供給經濟或社會弱勢者的比例應該要由現行的40%來增加到50%以上讓真正有需求的人能夠獲得更實質的保障讓社會住宅能夠回到照顧弱勢的核心初衷"},{"start":89.295,"end":104.046,"text":"第三個建置社宅需求的登記平台然後提高行政效率跟政策的精準度同時要強化租賃資訊的透明推動住宅資訊揭露的制度"},{"start":104.586,"end":112.27,"text":"然後降低成豬人的風險來健全住宅市場的次序這不僅僅是技術性的政策調整更是政府對於公平正義跟基本人權的具體回應我們要讓居住室基本人權不僅僅只是口號而是每個人真正能夠安身立命的保障本席呢懇請在場的各位委員還有相關部會能夠支持這次的修法我們讓法"},{"start":132.76,"end":134.764,"text":"好 謝謝高金素梅委員下一位我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表麥玉珍委員進行提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160582","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160582","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e56563a1627859732cdc7e49bcbcbb61fd48de7f242c34ed8d4318f82bdde02a7a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:09:16 - 09:12:37","影片長度":"00:03:21","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:09:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:12:37+08:00","duration":201,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.19971875,"end":0.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.41471875,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":198.71721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.375,"end":20.687,"text":"首先要謝謝主席對於國家資通安全的重視那在今天排審資通安全管理法修正草案也感謝跨黨派的立法委員同僚們大家共同關注資安的議題"},{"start":21.488,"end":37.32,"text":"那駭客攻擊事件呢在全球是持續升溫根據統計尤其是以製造業和醫療保健產業在台灣的受害情況最為嚴重那近期我們台灣呢也發生多起醫療院所遭到駭客攻擊的事件那引起民眾對於個人病歷資料外洩的擔憂和疑慮"},{"start":40.242,"end":49.306,"text":"那我個人在教育文化委員會也關注非常多的學校在前線可能也有這樣的一個陰影那由於地緣政治的關係台灣每秒遭遇駭客攻擊大約1.5萬次我現在講這句話的過程裡可能就已經超過10萬次了"},{"start":56.269,"end":79.92,"text":"是其他地方的4倍台灣的電子產業尤其半導體業非常的發達全球駭客通常會針對台灣的重點產業來發動攻擊來竊取重要的機密資訊另外一方面台灣有高達95%的企業又是中小企業能夠投入資安維護的資源相對的稀少容易成為駭客用來練兵的對象因此"},{"start":80.72,"end":98.123,"text":"本席所提出的修法版本第四条特别强调为提升通讯安全自通安全政府应提供资源整合民间产业的力量并提升全民自通安全的意识与此同时政府也应该协助民间来处理因应以及防范自通安全的事件"},{"start":98.704,"end":126.585,"text":"套用治安界著名的水龍理論整體系統的安全性取決於最低安全程度的一環若將整個國家的資通安全視為一體則政府應該有責任也有義務要投入更多的資源協助民間企業來提升他們的治安能力才能夠有效提升我們國家整體的治安能力除此之外本席所提出的修法版本也特別重視公正第三方監督查核的重要性唯有納入公正第三方的監督才能夠確保"},{"start":127.606,"end":153.141,"text":"國家資通系統的建制以及後續的維護管理皆符合資通安全相關的規定另外在修正案的第10條有關資通安全管理機制的建立與實施上我所提出的版本也特別強調公務機關或特定非公務機關於本法適用範圍內委外辦理資通系統之建制維運或資通服務之提供該系統屬委託機關之核心資通系統"},{"start":153.701,"end":167.552,"text":"或委託金額達1000萬新台幣以上者委託機關應另行委託公證第三方進行安全查核那我的修正案版本第11條也特別強調公務機關以及非特定公務機關應規劃"},{"start":169.133,"end":198.474,"text":"并于公正第三方的监督之下办理自动安全演练作业相关的规范呢希望能够有更多公正第三方国际公正第三方的安全监督才能够有效确保国家自通讯系统的建置以及管理那我想我们也希望呢能够依照资安相关的规定以及标准来运行以上是我所提出的修正草案版本的重点也恳请各位立院同僚部分党派一同来支持谢谢"}]}},{"id":"160579","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160579","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e554be1dc5b9fe8780aab39e7ea9331c7e48de7f242c34ed8d0f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:05:27 - 09:07:59","影片長度":"00:02:32","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員羅智強等25人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十九條及第四百五十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員許智傑等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:05:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:07:59+08:00","duration":152,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6890937500000001,"end":147.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":151.97346875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.771,"end":22.518,"text":"主席 在場委員還有我們列席的官員 大家早安根據刑事訴訟法第116條之二的規定法院許可停止羈押時經審酌人權保障及公共利益之均衡維護認為有必要者得定相當期間要求被告交付護照"},{"start":23.638,"end":38.586,"text":"旅行文件或者通知主管機關不予核發護照旅行文件但實務上會出現一個漏洞 也就是說當法院一開始沒有要求被告交付護照時後續就只能要求主管機關"},{"start":39.626,"end":50.799,"text":"不合法護照無法依法註銷那只能透過行政函文的方式由司法機關向外交部來請求廢止註銷棄保潛逃犯的護照"},{"start":54.423,"end":79.506,"text":"那不只是法源薄弱也礦日廢死那即使是依照護照條例的規定來進行行政註銷目前適用範圍也只限持照人在境外才能發函如果持照人在境內其實就無法依照護照條例來註銷這也造成一些被告有機可乘可以氣薄潛逃到境外去規避司法的制裁"},{"start":80.222,"end":101.907,"text":"那這樣的漏洞已經成為部分被告逃逸到境外的重要途徑對我們的司法違性跟社會治安都造成了威脅那根據媒體揭露的刑事局資訊目前在境外的棄保潛逃犯可能在8000人左右相當的多那這也是影響司法公正所以我才提案"},{"start":102.667,"end":131.422,"text":"修法要賦予法院主動通知主管機關協請註銷逃逸被告的護照跟旅行文件的權利那這樣的措施可以填補現在的治安漏洞來加強司法威信那我是最早提出這個修法的委員也和謝一鳳委員是這兩個提案的委員雖然提案的委員不多但我還是感謝法務部司法院警政署在這次報告裡都有肯定這個修法方向"},{"start":132.102,"end":147.253,"text":"所以我呼籲不分黨派不分行政立法機關我們一起來支持完成這個修法那盡快逐條審查看能不能在這個會起來拼三讀完成立法為我們司法體系跟社會治安提供更強有力的保障 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160589","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160589","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e547f81aeca030ebb718c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8dcbfaccc57ef64b895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:14:22 - 09:15:57","影片長度":"00:01:35","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:14:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:15:57+08:00","duration":95,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.153468750000002,"end":90.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.13471875,"end":94.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.69971875,"end":95.13846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.362,"end":25.629,"text":"主席戈同仁住宅法第一条开宗明义表示为保障国民居住权益健全住宅市场提升居住品质使全体国民居住于适宜之住宅且享有尊严的居住环境特制定本法其中第一条后段的使全体国民居住于适宜之住宅且享有尊严之居住环境是本席认为相当重要的核心理念"},{"start":26.289,"end":42.109,"text":"这个理念也因此接触于第四条制定而应提供40%以上的社会住宅与经济或社会弱势者的规定目的就是希望由政府提供具一定品质的社会住宅让弱势的民众也能住得舒适住得有尊严"},{"start":43.03,"end":67.162,"text":"但现行的住宅法第四条有关经济或社会弱势的规定虽纳入了身心障碍者的规定但未成年身心障碍者无法单独申请社会住宅其法定代理人或监务人若不符合经济或社会弱势之资格亦无法适用这样的状况显然有失立法意志有失公允"},{"start":67.802,"end":90.066,"text":"就此本席原理據住宅法第四條條文的修正草案在第二項第八款納入遇有未成年身心障礙者一人以上之規定補齊現行法規對於經濟或社會弱勢者的不足之處落實政府照顧弱勢族群促進社會和諧與公平之意旨也懇請各位立院同仁支持好謝謝蘇巧慧委員的提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160588","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160588","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5359d4ebf6bcf8dbb18c34ac1b6c9816348de7f242c34ed8dda25f9f11a3780b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:12:01 - 09:14:14","影片長度":"00:02:13","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:12:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:14:14+08:00","duration":133,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.48659375000000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.549093750000001,"end":37.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.172843750000006,"end":42.893468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.619093750000005,"end":127.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.43721875000001,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.82909375,"end":133.69784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.73,"end":26.936,"text":"主席福音同仁大家好針對這一次的住宅法部分修正草案本席這邊先針對住宅的成豬資格的一個調整那這邊是刪除了欲有未成年子女二人以上的限制那這整個是在回應家庭結構多元跟少子化的事實所以欲有一成名"},{"start":28.696,"end":42.664,"text":"一名未成年子女也能夠納入保障然後提升這個政策的公平性那也配合行政院在的300億元擴大租金補助專案確保社宅的這個政策一致性跟可行性"},{"start":43.669,"end":72.307,"text":"那第二個部分呢是為了改善整個需求評估失準的這個問題那本席這邊提出增設社會住宅需求登記平台取代過去抽樣推估的方式透過即時即具篩選功能的資料系統那能夠精準的掌握總量區位跟房型的這個需求提升政策規劃的效能也能夠加速行政的流程那第三個部分呢是強化土地的供給"},{"start":73.488,"end":89.997,"text":"我們在內容上明定了區段徵收及市地重劃取得這土地應該有一定比例不低於5%的比例作為社會住宅使用然後來確保社宅興建的用地穩定來源也解決土地取得困難的問題"},{"start":91.358,"end":119.501,"text":"最後就為了促進民間參與並活絡社宅的供給新增了融資貸款信用保證制度協助新辦者來突破資金的瓶頸也降低民間投入風險強化公司協力分擔政府財政的負擔以上就比較能夠著眼在整個資格能夠比較合理需求也比較科學化土地的找尋也比較制度化還有融資的一個可行性"},{"start":119.881,"end":133.046,"text":"那透過這個整體的系統化修正來實質推進居住正義然後緩解國人長期居住的壓力那原此提出本案也敬請支持謝謝好謝謝林建基委員提案說明"}]}},{"id":"160586","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5ff13f7cf3b690769a427a29fd78ae4fe48de7f242c34ed8db9f0b68493ff28c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:25:50 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交通 教育等各項生活需求的支出所以"},{"start":169.21,"end":188.975,"text":"要這些支出以外你算要存款那更是不可能所以我們對於提高房屋租金的扣除和我們不是只單純的從租屋的角度去看而是要全面的去觀察全面性的去從他的生活經濟的整體壓力去做考量"},{"start":189.975,"end":213.721,"text":"至於我們所購足的房貸利息支出是否應該比照房屋租金列為特別扣除額我想在財政部的專報中提到113年中央銀行等五大銀行新成做的購屋貸款利率是2.171%利息支出30萬元的貸款本金落在大概1400萬"},{"start":216.062,"end":230.755,"text":"對一般的首購族以足使用但本席就想問問財政部如果以內政部的單坪房價的價格在台北市1400萬可以買到幾坪的房子"},{"start":231.653,"end":249.118,"text":"我算了一下答案是只能買到19.45坪若扣除公設30%在台北市實際只能買到13.615坪的居住空間那我們現在少子化所以我們要鼓勵國人要生小孩"},{"start":249.818,"end":274.371,"text":"那就算只剩一個小孩13.615坪其實他的居住空間非常非常的小所以難怪我們看到台北市我們現在看到一個狀況就是有脫北的人潮因此財政部的舉例完全是脫離現實所以對於首購族的房貸利息我們是不是也應該訂出一個金額數字"},{"start":275.832,"end":292.363,"text":"並列為特別扣除額讓我們的國人更有餘力去買真正適合全家居住的房子當然這個就是有需要討論與增訂的空間所以本席希望我們的政府單位在看到民眾的需求的時候我們應該從客觀的數據去推演實際的狀況才能夠確實了解民眾民之所苦"},{"start":299.227,"end":313.96,"text":"尤其未來還要面對各種國際經濟局勢的變遷例如美國的對等關稅所造成的整個物價的上漲未來我們國人的生活的影響經濟上的壓力都存在許多的變動因素"},{"start":314.6,"end":338.579,"text":"因此我們政府單位應該要從更全面的角度去審慎考量我們今天公聽會兩項民生的需求而不應該以今天已經有的政策來推脫或是忽視未來民眾的需求也非常感謝今天各位先進提出我們修法的高見我們大家一起來檢討我們修法的方向以上 謝謝"},{"start":340.267,"end":349.28,"text":"好 謝謝李師明委員 精彩的發言啦下面請金門大學海洋邊境管理學院"}]}},{"id":"160585","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e57dc7109fd5cf9228dc7e49bcbcbb61fd48de7f242c34ed8d75fbb8e6d82346ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:19:50 - 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我們現在繼續開會本日會議的議程為邀請衛福部部長 農業部次長 經濟部次長"},{"start":1777.935,"end":1801.342,"text":"外交部次長行政院經貿談判辦公室副總統副總談判代表行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對美豬美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益進行專題報告並備諮詢"},{"start":1805.023,"end":1829.076,"text":"我們現在介紹在場的委員去列席官員第一位是陳道志委員黃振旭委員來 衛生福利部邱太遠部長歡迎歡迎 啪啪啦 啪啪啦 啪啪啦食藥署署長江志剛"},{"start":1836.417,"end":1847.345,"text":"昨天 昨天沒來齁國進署副署長賈淑麗好昨天被K啦齁"},{"start":1849.082,"end":1873.818,"text":"中央健康保險署龐一鳴副署長社會保險司代理司長陳真惠社家署主任秘書田基武長照司副司長吳希文醫事司專門委員郭威中"},{"start":1876.841,"end":1898.67,"text":"我們農業部常務次長 杜文貞好 歡迎 歡迎國際事務司 副司長 洪小鈞好 歡迎畜牧師 副司長 周志勳好 歡迎動植物防疫檢疫署主任秘書 陳時委好 歡迎農養署組長 陳其瑞"},{"start":1906.191,"end":1920.365,"text":"漁業署檢任計政 鄭淑雯經濟部政務次長 姜文若國際貿易署主任秘書 戴婉榮中小級新創企業署主任秘書 李嘉錦"},{"start":1932.89,"end":1957.743,"text":"產業發展署副組長曾志雄外交部北美司司長王良玉歡迎副司長下午才會來行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表嚴慧欣歡迎食品安全辦公室主任許甫"},{"start":1965.68,"end":1973.867,"text":"那接續我們接續我們請衛部部長報告然後再來請農業部報告再來請經濟部報告經貿辦也報告一下好 就四個再報告好 部長"},{"start":1992.918,"end":2016.226,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天大宴第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸持就美豬、美牛進口零關稅卻如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益提出專案報告敬請各位委員不吝會議指教"},{"start":2017.006,"end":2033.243,"text":"本部在食安優先的前提下透過科學分析定定安全且合理的豬牛產品相關管理規定並規劃原料原產地標示規範方便民眾選擇相關規定兼一體適用於國產及輸入產品"},{"start":2039.139,"end":2066.357,"text":"並持續依食品安全衛生管理法執行邊界食品輸入查驗查驗結果符合規定後使得輸入如邊境通關檢驗不合格之產品將依食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法令業者辦理退貨或銷毀並依食品安全衛生管理法第52條公布不合格產品資訊"},{"start":2068.258,"end":2093.774,"text":"另針對市售豬肉及其可食部位依法查核原料原產地標示查核萬有包括包含國產及進口產品並為針對特定國家目的維護民眾知識的權益並提升國人對市售食品的信任作為世界貿易組織WTO會員國"},{"start":2096.523,"end":2120.74,"text":"對於食品所採取的管理措施必須根據科學實證國人膳食風險評估並參考國際標準以積極展現立足台灣參與國際的決心最後本部始終秉持科學及專業的態度審慎積極評估致力把關全體國人的食品安全"},{"start":2121.823,"end":2151.349,"text":"亦將透過跨部會及中央地方合作落實邊境查驗與市場稽查積極為民眾建構實在安心實在放心的環境本部曾答應各委員之指教及監督在此靜置謝神並期各位委員繼續予以支持以上謝謝謝謝部長那接下來我們請農業部常務次長杜文臻報告"},{"start":2158.311,"end":2184.239,"text":"主席各位委員各位與會先進女士先生今日本人很代表很榮幸代表農業部列席貴委員會緊就指定的專題進行報告那報告如此一台美農產品的貿易關係美國是我國重要的農產品貿易夥伴國去年有百分之二十二點三的農進口農產品是來自美國價值三十六點九億美元是美國第八的"},{"start":2184.699,"end":2211.199,"text":"第八大的海外市場主要蔬菜產品包括黃豆玉米小麥牛肉等在出口的部分美國也是我國第一大的海外市場台灣向往美國的農產品出口值約8.9億美元出口的主要產品是花卉水產等多項農產品所以美國對我國享有農產品貿易的順差大概28億美元那就進口牛肉的部分及我國養牛產業的部分"},{"start":2212.27,"end":2229.963,"text":"牛肉進口的部分台灣大多是仰賴進口去年我國中全球進口的牛肉數量大概有14.6萬公噸那美國牛肉大概6萬公噸為最大宗其他主要輸入國家包括巴拉圭、澳大利亞、紐西蘭等台灣的牛肉自給率大概5%"},{"start":2231.764,"end":2242.81,"text":"那進口品項偏好及對我國產業的影響的部分呢那美國進口牛肉報關價格大概新台幣371元那主要是供應牛排、電餐、酒館等通路"},{"start":2243.939,"end":2269.598,"text":"国产牛肉的需求主要是温体肉比方说牛肉汤牛肉火锅牛肉面等传统通饮两者在通路销售价位上有明显的区隔那进口牛肉主要是各主要国之间的供应的竞争那本部会持续关注国产牛肉的销售状况并适时推动相关政策以维护我国养牛产业的发展并提供民生消费需求"},{"start":2270.399,"end":2291.678,"text":"那在持續推動國產牛肉產銷履歷及知識產業的部分依照衛福部的部分有食品安全食品及食品原料的管理標示相關規定那在本部的部分其實就台灣養牛產業我們會持續推動國產牛肉的產銷履歷同時建構牛肉牛的多元經營輔導肉牛養殖"},{"start":2294.269,"end":2312.273,"text":"飼養做最佳模式化的建立以穩定國內肉牛牛市來源支持在地產業的永續在豬肉的進口部分與台灣養豬產業的以下說明第一個台灣目前養豬大概有5664場在養521萬頭每年上市大概750萬頭豬那養豬的產業產值大概有850億元"},{"start":2321.215,"end":2350.317,"text":"那近來國人的平均消費豬肉大概是每人每年35.6公斤那九成的都是由國產來供應一成是進口的所以國人其實是偏好國產豬肉那至於進口的部分呢每年大概進口有11萬公噸那美國進口的部分大概佔8%所以提供給國人食用的進口豬肉來源從美國來的大概不到1%那其中加拿大的豬肉最具有價格"},{"start":2351.899,"end":2373.06,"text":"競爭的優勢也是近來大概是都是第一大進口國那就本部而言我們當然會持續推動國產豬肉產業的升值及加值以提升競爭力那為國人提供這個透明的消費資訊可以供參考可以選購可以支持台灣的養豬產業那另外也會導入"},{"start":2374.261,"end":2400.002,"text":"新式的租設及自動化省工設備系統的輔助以提升我們這個豬場的污染防止還有其他的優化的競爭力那配合食安把關維護農業生產的環境安全第一個本部會定期配合衛福部到國外就源頭的設施查核那也會持續請我們駐外人員收集各國肉品生產的相關資訊那"},{"start":2404.365,"end":2427.092,"text":"派獸醫人員協同食藥署赴國外查核以提供獸醫專業意見維護國內動物生產的安全在邊境的部分依照目前動物檢疫的法規各國牛豬肉目前輸入上都順暢本部防檢署會逐批查驗並且在港站執行檢疫以抽驗的方式查查輸入貨品確認貨證相符"},{"start":2429.773,"end":2450.511,"text":"那第三個我們也與美國有持續的定期或不定期的就非關稅障礙進行諮商包括本部防檢署衛福部食藥署那就相關關切的議題在做防疫檢疫的技術諮商以解決相關關切的非常非關稅貿易障礙那結論"},{"start":2454.08,"end":2477.816,"text":"會化解美國關稅對我們的衝擊那經貿談判代表團也已經展開與美方的視訊會議那相關的談判進程大概就依我們所規劃的往前走那美國對我國享有農產品的貿易順差行政部門會持續掌握相關的美方的相關的政策發展妥善與美方溝通"},{"start":2479.958,"end":2498.812,"text":"農業發展對國家糧食安全息息相關農業部當然是以我國糧食安全為最重要參考國際標準規範制定相關管制與作為以照顧農民維護我們的產業永續發展為目標推動各項措施與作為以上報告敬請不吝指教好謝謝陸次長那接下來我們請江文洛政務次長經濟部"},{"start":2513.973,"end":2532.115,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好承蒙各位委員會邀請就美豬美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益進行報告行政院已經說明政府在談判過程中會審慎衡平國人的健康爭取國家最大利益也維護國際產業競爭力"},{"start":2534.127,"end":2562.945,"text":"以下經濟部就國際最新的情勢台美經貿現況關稅影響因應措施等部分提出報告請各位委員不吝指教首先在美國關稅的措施川普總統他重返白宮後延續美國優先的路線推動關稅措施來說解貿易逆差而且要促使製造業回流目前美國已經針對鋼鋁汽車等特定產品課徵百分之二十五的關稅在對等關稅方面"},{"start":2563.925,"end":2575.414,"text":"川普政府宣布4月5号起对所有国家加征10%的关税另外对57个贸易顺差比较高的国家加征11%到50不等的税率台湾占定为32%"},{"start":2577.068,"end":2603.639,"text":"之后由于中国采取反制措施美国政府在4月9日宣布将其对等关税税率累加至145%其余国家90天内暂时维持加征10%的税率那对于国际贸易市场的影响在美国政府的关税政策下企业面临产线转移寻找供应链等等挑战经贸环境的不确定性"},{"start":2604.735,"end":2624.519,"text":"減緩了國際貿易及經濟的成長動能根據WTO在本年16日的預測如果美國繼續推動對等關稅加上貿易政策拒不確定性可能使今年全球商品的貿易量會衰退1.5%國際貨幣基金組織也下修今年的全球經濟成長率到2.8%"},{"start":2627.796,"end":2639.323,"text":"我們來探討一下台美經貿關係的發展現況就貿易面來說113年台灣是美國第七大貿易夥伴台灣對美國的出口比重從108年的14.1"},{"start":2643.729,"end":2658.631,"text":"成長到113年的23.4%可見美國已經逐漸深化跟台灣合作113年台灣對美出口達1114億美元顯示卡伺服器電腦零配件是主要的出口主力"},{"start":2659.151,"end":2673.873,"text":"其他也包括汽车零组件扣件机械等同年我们从美国进口465亿元包括半导体设备等在农产品方面美国是我们的最大市场113年出口大约8.9亿美元占比17.6%"},{"start":2675.765,"end":2695.804,"text":"主要有花卉水产品同年我们自美国进口36.9亿美元涵盖黄豆小麦玉米以及牛肉等续产品是美国第八大海外市场在投资面近两年美国已经是台湾最大投资对象我商着眼于接近客户市场商机成为美国供应链重要伙伴"},{"start":2696.308,"end":2714.834,"text":"主要反映供应链移转效果如今台湾也是美商重要的投资市场Intel美光的新厂Google研发中心陆续启用挥达还有超维持续在台布局台美企业相互投资为产业创新及发展益助强劲动能"},{"start":2715.765,"end":2731.31,"text":"目前美国对我家占10%的对等关税可能对出口产生影响经济部近期密集跟产业座谈走反影响比较深的传统产业业者都希望政府优先就金融资源扩大出口拓销等给予协助"},{"start":2732.048,"end":2750.898,"text":"在支持出口供应链部分 新建院已经提出应应美国关税我国出口供应链支持方案经济部会投入410亿元提供厂商金融资源开拓协助开拓多元市场例如提供外销贷款优惠保证中小为企业周转性支出"},{"start":2751.465,"end":2767.533,"text":"及购置机器设备的贷款利息补贴与信用保证协助企业在海外新设展示中心发货仓库或新增代理商经销仓拓展市场另外经济部也设立了及时的服务窗口提供拓销投资布局产业升级等咨询的服务"},{"start":2768.113,"end":2788.33,"text":"并在本月举办Taiwan Select全球抢单大会今年下半年的产业聚落抢单大会也会陆续邀请国际买主深入相关的产业聚落经济部也锁定国际五大排名第一的展览办理受影响产业的专属活动例如在欧洲相关展览增设台湾国家形象馆"},{"start":2788.8,"end":2814.438,"text":"安排买主洽谈新产品发表会等活动此外台湾拥有许多的优质的农产品经加工之后发展出更具创新商品可以供消费者选择为了协助加工食品拓展国际市场经济部今年以共同品牌Taiwan Select协助业者布建海外通路参加国际专业展而且广邀国际买主来台采购的做法争取国际订单"},{"start":2815.086,"end":2829.444,"text":"我們在食品的主要出口市場例如美國、日本、馬來西亞、澳洲、荷蘭及新加坡等國的超市會設置Taiwan Select專區或辦理拓銷活動來提高產品的知名度以及刺激銷售量"},{"start":2829.946,"end":2847.706,"text":"我們也會籌組台灣食品業者參加國際展國際食品展並以國家管的方式展出美西的天然食品展東京國際食品展新加坡國際食品展都已辦理完畢澳洲食品展也將在今年的九月辦理以下報告相關的成果"},{"start":2848.687,"end":2868.207,"text":"東京國際食品展本屆台灣館總共有193家業者參加包括農業部及14個縣市政府11個我國食品相關的工協會組團參加今年因為日本缺米糧還有高利財欠收的緣故所以我們的米商跟菜商在展中洽談的成果豐碩滷肉條禮包"},{"start":2871.465,"end":2887.396,"text":"珍珠奶茶醬料類還有豆奶等產品接受到日本買主的詢問下單在新加坡國際食品展本屆台灣館有95家業者參加包括六個縣市及七家食品相關工協會組團展前的一天"},{"start":2888.212,"end":2908.335,"text":"辦理VIP新加坡買主洽談會與當地連鎖超市洽談合作另外新加坡對於健康養生產品日售重視低基金黃豆製成的素基金等產品也受到青睞我們也會籌組商機聯合團本年會安排前往紐西蘭澳洲荷蘭意大利德國日本韓國與當地通路商與"},{"start":2910.188,"end":2938.204,"text":"进口商媒合洽谈今年将于6月台北国际食品展及10月高雄国际食品展举办大型的国际通路商采购洽谈会预计邀请160位国际买主来台采购并体验台湾美食文化深化国际伙伴关系同时我们也精选我国九大国际专业展设置台湾Select馆展现台湾产品好吃好玩好健康好买的形象并奉茶奉补让国际买主体验"},{"start":2939.353,"end":2966.453,"text":"臺灣道地奉財還有養生的食補文化我們也會持續的帶領臺商開拓全球市場聚焦中東歐日本美國菲律賓等貿易夥伴經濟部已經在去年年底在捷克設立了臺灣貿易投資中心第二個據點也在4月21日在日本福岡設立今年下半年規劃在美國設立第三個臺灣貿易投資中心協助我國業者全球布局結與"},{"start":2968.161,"end":2984.205,"text":"經濟部將持續跨部會的合作與美方溝通確保我產業例外並關注美國關稅的政策變動同時聆聽產業意見調整政策協助業者全球佈置以上報告請請各位委員不吝指教謝謝謝謝江市長最後我們請行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表顏慧欣報告"},{"start":3004.862,"end":3019.78,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士大家好那陳蒙貴委員會的這個委員會的邀請就本辦公室來提出美豬美牛這個進口零關稅保障我國食品安全跟農民的這個主題來提出報告那以下"},{"start":3020.393,"end":3047.804,"text":"二要說明來請各位委員不吝指教首先呢簡單的回顧一下川普現在川普總統上任之後提出了美國優先的投資以及貿易的政策那所以他針對貿易跟投資的目標分別提出了不同的這個政策措施那川普最重要他們提出了這個各國關稅不對等邊境匯率這些問題那要去解決美國貿易赤字的因此他提出了"},{"start":3048.595,"end":3062.854,"text":"這些要去提出所謂對等關稅的這些措施而現在美國提出的4月2號提出這個對等關稅的這個措施呢它是一個超過對全球180個國家以上所提出的措施而不是單獨只針對中國"},{"start":3064.281,"end":3085.754,"text":"那所以他提出這個措施本身是選擇國家別以及他所有的來這個國家的產品他都會加以科徵而他的法源依據呢是美國的國家經濟緊急安全法IEPA那所以在這一個法律的授權之下呢我們看到川普政府決定要對於180個以上的國家來科徵"},{"start":3086.89,"end":3103.439,"text":"不同税率的這個對等關稅那其中呢台灣是屬於被課徵32%的關稅那不過因為後來在這個美國政策的進一步考量之下目前所有的對等關稅除了中國以外都先維持10%的這個對等關稅的這個稅率"},{"start":3105.82,"end":3124.048,"text":"那但是除了這個對等關稅的法律授權以外川普政府他還有另外一個是針對產業威脅的衝擊而他可以採取的這個關稅措施也就是我們現在常常聽到的1962年的貿易擴張法232條款那所以川普政府針對232的這個授權之下他也針對了鋼鋁銅"},{"start":3128.09,"end":3148.365,"text":"木材 汽車 藥品這些有關的產品分別展開了國家安全的調查或者他已經科證了所謂的國安稅所以這個基本上是我們現在所看到川普政府為了要去處理他現在所面臨的問題而採取的一些關稅方面的一些措施"},{"start":3149.446,"end":3168.161,"text":"那就台灣現在輸美的農產品上面呢我們是屬於對等關稅這個措施的適用的範圍那說目前我們看到台灣現在輸往美國的這些關稅呢台灣的農產品簡單平均關稅稅率是16.6美美國本身是5點"},{"start":3170.664,"end":3185.079,"text":"但是這個只是簡單平均的關稅的稅率如果我們從實際台美有在進行農產品貿易的話我們的加權平均關稅台灣實際上就是面臨9.3那美國是4.0所以我們的關稅差距實際上跟美國沒有這麼高"},{"start":3190.825,"end":3214.101,"text":"那所以台美在農產品上面是某種程度是有相當緊密的農產貿易的那剛剛前面的部會都有提到台灣輸美的這些農產品主要是花卉水果為主美國輸往台灣的大概是黃豆玉米小麥那所以在這樣子的一個背景之下呢我們接下來會因應美國的"},{"start":3214.605,"end":3234.837,"text":"這些對等關稅的一個措施我們政府已經組成了談判小組那現在由行政院長政府院長所領軍那所有的未來的關稅的談判非關稅的談判我們都會在兼顧國民健康跟糧食安全的基礎之下去提出最符合台灣利益的一些訴求"},{"start":3235.489,"end":3258.23,"text":"那特別是我們也知道台灣加一的這個策略是很重要的所以我們也會去協助台灣加美國的這個新佈局以及協助我們的台灣產業去發展更多的全球佈局的這樣子一個市場那最終呢我想政府一定會秉持立足台灣佈局全球那我們會去全力改善"},{"start":3258.906,"end":3284.716,"text":"對等關稅也會去推動跟我們的有盟國家加強更多的經貿協議以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝顏慧欣代表有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":3286.584,"end":3314.017,"text":"那我們現在開始詢答 做以下宣告本委員會詢答時間8分鐘 列席委員4分鐘10點半截止花園登記委員如有書面執行 請於上會前提出 預期不受理暫定10點半左右 休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案我們今天中午不休息 把它拼完那我們現在第一位委員陳昭芝 花園"},{"start":3319.65,"end":3319.67,"text":"委員長"},{"start":3330.558,"end":3357.068,"text":"好 部長早 副總代表早那美國今年4月他發布了國家貿易障礙評估的這個報告他明白的指出台灣應該要依據科學證據跟國際規範取消對牛絞肉以及副產品的這個限制意思就是說要台灣全面開放美牛產品進口那麼我想先請問部長部長當時我們限制某些牛肉產品不能進口的原因是什麼你還記得嗎"},{"start":3361.169,"end":3379.044,"text":"我們當然是根據科學的分析還有國際的標準在食安照顧國人食安的一個最大的原則之下來做相關的各種我請問你現在時到今天這些風險跟懷疑還存在嗎"},{"start":3385.216,"end":3394.306,"text":"我想我們從以前到現在都是在衛福部的立場當然就是一直做科學的分析跟專業的態度同時也要根據這些科學的實證"},{"start":3401.454,"end":3429.462,"text":"來參考國際的標準當時的認定標準現在是不是還存在當然我知道這不是一個容易回答的問題那這樣我先請教這個副總代表因為美國不斷的要求台灣要全面開放美牛那我們的立場要做改變嗎我們要進一步開放當時我們對牛絞肉跟它的副產品的限制以及有一些牛隻年齡的這個限制問題副總我想請你是不是就這個部分回答 謝謝"},{"start":3431.087,"end":3450.036,"text":"好那個謝委員我想當初我們對於牛角肉這些限制是來自於美國當初有BSC狂牛症的問題那但是狂牛症的這個認定呢實際上按照世界衛生動物組織他們的認定也不斷的針對狂牛症的認定有分為典型跟非典型的不同的一個病症"},{"start":3450.556,"end":3466.308,"text":"那科學也不斷地在進步那我想對於我們台灣來說我們對於美國的產品是否要開放完全就是按照現在國際證據上面然後這些科學的評估會去認定說美國的產品到底安不安全來作為我們接下來討論的基礎"},{"start":3467.549,"end":3484.997,"text":"不過目前到現在為止還是對於某些牛肉產品跟高齡的牛脂那個潛在的風險並沒有排除所以本身認為我們國不應該在還沒有確立的一個科學證據佐證下就全面開放這是我個人的一些想法"},{"start":3486.838,"end":3506.507,"text":"同一份報告中美方有延續過去的立場認為台灣實施指明台灣實施這個豬肉原產地標示規定以及對進口豬實施這個萊克多巴胺的這個最高殘留量的限制這兩件事他們認定是對這個不公平的技術性貿易障礙影響美國出口的利益那現在正逢這個準備要談判的期間我們都預期原產地的標示這會成為這個戰場之一"},{"start":3515.171,"end":3524.974,"text":"那請教部長跟經貿談判副總代表我國是否會在談判過程當中堅定維持豬肉應該要標示原產地呢"},{"start":3525.523,"end":3546.19,"text":"好,我們一定堅定、審慎、積極、自立法官、全國國人的實名單位,見過一個實在安心的環境所以我們要求豬肉跟牛肉原料原產地標示,其實我們是一體適用於國產及所有輸入的豬肉跟牛肉"},{"start":3548.071,"end":3561.562,"text":"我謝謝部長這樣子回答但是我要告訴部長是因為這次我們談判對象是美國美國他自己有個原產地標示法叫COOL他在2015年被自己的國會廢除了部分原產地標示規定"},{"start":3562.543,"end":3566.824,"text":"那當時他們是為了因應WTO的加入那因為WTO對這項法案法規有一個裁釋就是說在爭端案當中WTO裁定美國的部分的原產地標示包含牛肉跟豬肉違反了TBD的這個協定21條還有第22條就裡面包括國民待遇最後國待遇還有不造成不必要這樣這個規定"},{"start":3586.269,"end":3588.35,"text":"他們認定確實構成不必要的貿易障礙所以我想請教部長因為據我了解剛剛您在回答在外面回答這個記者的時候受訪就是說你有回答一個方式的回答說沒有什麼事情是不會改變的"},{"start":3603.558,"end":3607.222,"text":"那部長我請教你,你講的沒有什麼事情是不會改變的,是針對我國的這個標示民文標示安法第22條這個標示原產地這個民文規定嗎?是不是要在美國的壓力下取消這個規定呢?你剛剛談話之意是不是如此呢?包委員我剛剛應該沒有提到那個沒有什麼任何事情是"},{"start":3627.991,"end":3631.634,"text":"我沒有提到這句話我絕對不會講這句話雖然我覺得人生無常但是我會講這句話國際的標準最重要一定要在安全國際的標準當然是專家一直在"},{"start":3645.425,"end":3652.793,"text":"一直在調整調整但是一定都是在專講有機會澄清一下但是美方多次在國際場合對我國的豬肉的標示有一關切雖然我們台南民眾黨絕對認同原產地標示有助於什麼很重要的就是"},{"start":3665.207,"end":3680.752,"text":"讓消費者能夠做出符合個人在做選擇時的一個他的價值跟他的風險認知的一個參考依據但我請教部長衛福部有沒有評估過如果台灣針對美豬的原產地標示也會遭遇類似的法律訴訟呢就是他被裁定等一下我還有其他國家的例子就是我們如果堅定那我們要去準備面對國際法律的訴訟問題"},{"start":3692.809,"end":3709.885,"text":"因為針對前在WTO的訴訟我們做了什麼樣的準備因為這是去談判不是在國內處理那談判這個其中我方的談判代表這個怎麼樣來互惠怎麼樣來幫我們爭取我們覺得應該要維持原來的制度我的重點在這裡也是我們今天討論的重點"},{"start":3712.167,"end":3719.772,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,這個部分我想江市長是專家,那你怎麼樣?時間有限謝謝委員這邊的提問面對美國的豬肉的標示,當然是他們有提到可是這件事情在國內,我們對所有豬肉,不管是"},{"start":3736.863,"end":3763.815,"text":"好吃的一筆一豬 還是哪一國家的豬其實我們是一體適用 一致的標示那也在回應所有全體民眾的一些關心所以做了我們的相關的規定到市場端其實是有做特定的一個標示謝謝署長 既然滿上一體適用但我為什麼要這樣問部長因為按照我國的民情 政府認定萊克多巴胺這件事的殘留量的標準我們目前是認為有提高的必要性"},{"start":3764.995,"end":3772.042,"text":"但綜合我們比較加州還有墨西哥他控告美國的前述案件結果確實被評定為是貿易壁壘有這樣的風險那在庫爾的案件當中WTO認為美國的做法對於進口肉品跟本國的肉品的待遇不一樣雖然表面上規定好像沒有不同但是進口廠商"},{"start":3788.197,"end":3803.8,"text":"他確實要承擔了不同的程序跟成本所以他等同他這個裁定說等同貿易歧視那另一方面美國的這個全難定標示也在訴訟中被裁定為就是你這個標示沒有辦法證明你政策正當性的一個佐證"},{"start":3805.021,"end":3830.604,"text":"你這樣標示法沒有辦法證明在這個材質當中是如此所以換句話說台灣的辯護不能只靠民情封鎖民情而是要提出具體的科學證據那美方已經在2020年10月跟2020年2月的TPT會議當中還有前面我提到的國際貿易的障礙評估的報告當中多次提到這些標示對美國豬肉是會造成不利的影響"},{"start":3832.714,"end":3851.468,"text":"面對我們國家的標準確實比國際標準高啊比國際標準嚴啊所以請問衛福部如何闡述我國行政機關的標準是符合WTO或是這個TBT的協定平等原則我擔心的是這個部分啦因為確實比國際高部長你可以做初步"},{"start":3853.15,"end":3866.79,"text":"非常謝謝委員這麼專業的指教也把可能比較擔心的我們也論述那我想我們我們國人有國人的一個飲食的文化所以我們在"},{"start":3867.992,"end":3886.204,"text":"要求這個標準上面可能雖然我們一定要科學的分析也要符合國際的標準所以我們當然這就是兩難啊所以部長我請問的不是國企在解決的所以這個就是我們要一起來努力我們衛福部絕對在一直針對相關的議題相關的食品"},{"start":3888.197,"end":3912.225,"text":"一定去做好科學的分析跟修正科學的修正然後了解到國際的一個整個標準的一個變化最重要我們要尊重我們國人膳食的一個習慣這樣來訂定相關的措施這個辯護還是要有一個相當的力道因為就是說用我們國人的民情風俗大概很難過關可是美國一旦的拋出國際壓力"},{"start":3913.986,"end":3928.44,"text":"我想我們要堅持我方人民有知情權因為美國相對是人權思考的國家知情權行政機關要整準備以科學證據跟法學的論述來佐證為什麼台灣會定出高於這個Codex"},{"start":3929.261,"end":3935.484,"text":"我們為什麼會訂出高於Codex標準台灣如何在談判中說服美國說我國高於國際認定標準不是一種貿易障礙但是你如果只靠這個風俗民情沒有辦法是一個穩靠的這個立即點那也沒辦法作為這個國家的政策來對應可能引起的國際"},{"start":3946.868,"end":3969.319,"text":"貿易的爭端所以我想說請就是說諸位參考我民眾黨的主張是第一個原產地標示不是貿易的壁壘它是提供消費者在做個人的進行個人的選擇時一種價值或是風險認知的一個參考依據就我們可以從這個觀點來想因為我們必須守護國民的知情權知道事情的這個權"},{"start":3970.939,"end":3987.526,"text":"這個權力第二個原產地標示是大家也要去準備目前是最低標準其實我們的國人對於那個萊克多巴胺的部分他其實是更重視那當然他要我們全面開放所以這個部分你們要怎麼去克服怎麼樣去準備怎麼樣去說服我覺得很相當的艱難"},{"start":3992.993,"end":4009.524,"text":"我們政府一定做好最好的準備,但是一定要在科學的根據還有符合一定,符合標準,符合國際的標準,最重要在這樣的情況之下,一定要提供給民眾知的權益,剛剛委員所提的"},{"start":4014.84,"end":4029.027,"text":"最安才的時評每一個人會去認知提供個參考我想副總代表也請你參考除了科學怎麼去解讀科學證據這是一個談判的手法跟技巧主席已經站起來了謝謝三位我們繼續努力 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長好 接著我們請陳清威委員質詢"},{"start":4042.005,"end":4045.753,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝各位官員那我想請邱部長"},{"start":4051.809,"end":4076.02,"text":"委員長部長因為您擔任非常久的教授所以我也想問一個很生活化的問題啊教授平常看過很多學生的報告如果今天我被指派一個題目是說我要寫我的家庭結果呢這份報告寫了我的外公外婆寫了爺爺奶奶連鄰居都寫了可是沒有寫到爸爸媽媽跟兄弟姊妹你覺得這個報告幾分"},{"start":4080.811,"end":4103.16,"text":"那要看他寫的可能他以他以外公為榮所以花費了30分鐘都在寫他外公外婆的所謂成績部長我今天要幫您講幾句話今天我們收到了負責去談判的經貿談判辦公室的報告我們來看一下幫我按下一張"},{"start":4104.773,"end":4124.072,"text":"他就只有封面提到美豬美牛今天給的議程題目叫做美豬美牛進口如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益書面報告上有這兩個字再來就是主席各位委員承蒙本辦公室對美豬美牛提出報告再來全部都沒有了"},{"start":4127.645,"end":4152.923,"text":"全部都沒有了我可以幫你改題目教授教授如果我可以我是您的助教的話啦我會幫這份報告改一個題目叫做川普的貿易哲學與全球關稅分佈圖因為他裡面全部都在講全球關稅分佈圖最後一句話只有以上敬請主席以及各位委員指教謝謝那"},{"start":4155.543,"end":4174.51,"text":"部長我今天對你非常好因為我想幫你講話來監督食安的人是你負責把關全民健康的是你可是談判的是他們您不會覺得自己很委屈嗎我想政府是一體的守護國家也是前提"},{"start":4175.731,"end":4193.482,"text":"那個政府跟人民共同的權益我們就是這個台灣我們台灣人民要活得快樂 時的安心好 那我希望其實今天我們也是藉由這個機會這個場合可以做溝通因為您是衛生主管機關的最高指導人嘛"},{"start":4194.102,"end":4210.939,"text":"那今天您對於未來談判的結果可能影響到國人有哪些問題這個是您需要先跟談判辦公室溝通好談判辦公室在代表您去跟美方做溝通所以我們等一下會就可能美方在意的幾個點我們也一起來討論我們也可以藉這個機會可以讓未來代表我們出去溝通的長官們可以把我們台灣人的聲音也納進去謝謝"},{"start":4219.195,"end":4237.763,"text":"好這邊可能要問一下因為這個新聞在非常多台灣的媒體也都有曝光嘛大家知道說自從2024年年初一直到2024年年底美國的牛群就有大規模的這個H5N1禽流感病毒的感染"},{"start":4238.323,"end":4258.144,"text":"那一直到2024年年底已經有15個州689個牧場其中加州又最為嚴重因此他們也撲殺了很多可憐的牛隻後來又發現說這個牛還會傳染給工人所以又發現了36名跟牛隻接觸的工人感染了H5N1病毒"},{"start":4259.205,"end":4273.995,"text":"那這個引起國際的關注所以我想問呢您對於美牛的茶廠以及美豬的茶廠現在的態度是如何還有您最近查了幾次以及未來經過這樣子的談判您有可能會修改您的頻率嗎 您會根據什麼方式來修改"},{"start":4279.959,"end":4295.753,"text":"報告委員,我想我們一定遵守法規,遵守法規的一個規定去執行那我想委員一定很願意聽我們國際死案專家,我們江署長來跟你做一個說明"},{"start":4297.385,"end":4315.931,"text":"江署長最近好像有過去查場嗎這個我大概知道我跟委員做進一步的報告因為我們看到委員非常專業的提到就是乳牛等等的有相關Bird flu就是所謂的禽流感的疫情那其實我們因為"},{"start":4317.272,"end":4327.249,"text":"擔任我們邊境所有進口來台灣的食品安全任何的農產品或者畜產品進來我們把關的機制所以我們要去更加買"},{"start":4328.922,"end":4357.626,"text":"至少他的廠在國內特別是美國的國內有一項叫做Quality System就是品質系統的Assessment叫QSA之後已經認證之後進一步做所謂Export出口的Verification認證之後他們國內會先做完是確定是安全的然後讓我們選擇任何進來台灣的都有機會去看我們要去"},{"start":4358.406,"end":4374.697,"text":"看到的茶廠 那就是系統性的茶廠我懂 那等一下其實美國也有一些聲音我們可以一起討論再來部長這個是您擔任立委的時候我昨天也有把您擔任立委時對於這些台美21世紀貿易倡議的"},{"start":4377.279,"end":4402.541,"text":"這些質詢的發言等等都有看完我也很敬佩你因為部長有堅持住您剛剛的發言跟您以前的發言都非常的類似您還是為全國人民把關那最近就您的掌握呢美國還有沒有再類似講這些我們會再去管制進口它的原產地標籤啊檢驗等等的障礙與關切呢因為這是農民也蠻在意的"},{"start":4407.13,"end":4422.94,"text":"好,我想我們站在衛福部的立場,不管怎麼樣就是把相關有關的一些食品按照法規來執行以外就是不斷的進行科學的分析,提供給我們整體的政府"},{"start":4424.152,"end":4443.788,"text":"來做但是原則上所有的一切都是一體適用所以我們會用這樣子這樣的原則跟各個國家去談論相關的一些事情賴總統有對彭博社做了一個投書所以他說他會擴大對美國能源農業"},{"start":4445.309,"end":4463.939,"text":"工業還有軍售方面的採購來增加雙方的投資量能在他投書之前因為農業有被拉進去嘛農業上其實我們已經對美國是逆差了那可能還會再增加或者是降低這些貿易壁壘等等這個在他投書之前您有知道嗎我想總統提的這些都是得到"},{"start":4472.511,"end":4483.425,"text":"國際間以及我們國內的最大的肯定我想這個方向是我們應該要去做的所以我們就要因應嘛因為可能進口的農產品會變多再來呢這個談判內容在場"},{"start":4486.849,"end":4512.308,"text":"其實這個報告有寫到真的有寫到真心提到美豬美牛大概只有衛福部跟農業部這個本席予以肯定但農業部的結語是說4月11號的首次視訊會議交換意見過程很順利但這邊我們當然也會想知道說過程順利OK有沒有初步談到可能的方向就是跟彭博的投書是不是一致"},{"start":4514.5,"end":4538.79,"text":"是不是農業部員是報告委員謝謝委員關心並支持臺灣農業那開啟談判只是第一步那實質內容其實雙方都還在溝通當中是所以還沒有辦法跟我們講到方向已經開啟了談判是謝謝委員支持那這邊也要請教邱部長這個文件不知道你有沒有看到過因為在關稅之後呢"},{"start":4539.963,"end":4559.238,"text":"川普宣布對世界全球的關稅之後很快他就發布了對每一國的貿易壁壘他一國一國的列出來那這也是公開文件所以我們也一點一點來看跟我們衛福部比較相關的他提到說台灣在沒有正當理由下對"},{"start":4560.158,"end":4580.847,"text":"台湾处理美国租资的业者包括进口商批发商餐饮业者进行稽查频繁回访这些业者干扰正常营运是不是在乱干扰我想要问卫福部的立场是不是是的 谢委员我们的立场非常简单我们都是科学分析然后一体试用"},{"start":4581.987,"end":4591.65,"text":"所以我們必須會向各國講說我們是為了守護國人的健康我們是一體適用並沒有針對哪個國家所以聽起來我們並不是在亂干擾也很希望我們的官員在談判的時候可以表達我們衛福部的立場那第二個這個陳昭志委員問過了台灣對於訂定最大殘留容許量這個做法錯誤的暗示美國豬肉產品存在食品安全的疑慮"},{"start":4611.605,"end":4612.092,"text":"您覺得呢"},{"start":4615.064,"end":4640.277,"text":"我想我們要這個部分從我們專業以及說在維護食安的當中我們這個是應該是說剛剛已經跟委員報告過這是我們國人的飲食的習慣要遵守陳昭智委員也有說可能沒有辦法就習慣來說服美方我們還是必須要就我們台灣的法規就剛剛食藥署署長講得很清楚我們"},{"start":4641.898,"end":4656.493,"text":"為什麼這樣子做那為什麼我們的標準定的比別人高這個是必須我們要透明的跟對方解釋的好下一個這也列在他對台灣有所意見可是其實很多美國的媽媽也有意見喔"},{"start":4657.674,"end":4685.071,"text":"台灣禁止學校公餐使用含有生物科技成分意思就是基改啦加工食品美國持續對這項禁令的科學依據表示疑慮並且不斷的敦促台灣來撤銷該措施這個是所有父母都最關心的問題因為現在大家都必須要吃營養午餐嘛我也想請問食藥署署長的意見我們有可能去撤銷這樣子的禁令嗎"},{"start":4687.778,"end":4715.296,"text":"就我的了解剛才提到的是校園裡面特定的食品的部分嘛因為這個特定的食品部分當初的立法的背景裡面應該是全國國民很關心食安這個議題那也關心特定的議題之下呢進行的風險溝通最後形成評估出來的結果評估出來的結果呢就變成了一個規定跟法律上面的協助他做法官"},{"start":4716.357,"end":4738.591,"text":"所以在這個規定底下我們就有機會可以協助做整個市場的稽查才能確立它的風險所以這些是我們持續在因應跟持續精進的一個部分那目前我們持續在往這方面來持續的對相關的食安的議題能夠把關我覺得署長講得非常清楚"},{"start":4739.271,"end":4753.164,"text":"這個是在您跟校園跟家長以及台灣的食品提供者作為溝通所訂定出來的這個也希望在談判的過程可以表達清楚因為從第一頁我就說出去的是別人可是進來被罵的是你們"},{"start":4754.885,"end":4782.519,"text":"這不公平所以現在我們剛好藉由這個場合表達清楚你們為什麼這樣做那你們的立場是什麼台灣人民的想法是什麼家長的想法是什麼那在談判的時候希望可以也顧及台灣人民的這麼一塊那最後就是台灣曾經以狂牛病為疑慮啊所以禁止某些美國牛肉的產品如絞肉等等的所以之後這個方向是不是有可能會談到美國的牛絞肉"},{"start":4788.187,"end":4798.278,"text":"因為剛剛前面一個問題我還是跟委員回覆一下我想我們衛福部就站在我們的一個食品"},{"start":4799.481,"end":4819.151,"text":"的一個維護安全的一些專業的建議我們是跟談判的這種團這是政府是一個一體的所以是充分的一個溝通所以沒有說誰來談誰來承擔的事情我們共同一起來承擔然後共同維護實際上跟我們"},{"start":4820.021,"end":4849.367,"text":"國家最大的一個利益所以我想我們都會根據國際的標準來繼續往最後方面來努力主席兩分鐘 對我們今天其實只是希望你們談判的方向大家可以明確知道而且未來可以做社會溝通因為之前兩位還沒上任的時候曾經發生食藥署就默默的更改了日本進口草莓的農藥殘餘量把它提高了"},{"start":4849.887,"end":4875.582,"text":"那預告的時候也是一聲不響後來真的開始實施開始進口的時候接到了非常大量的陳情啊對那當然你們現在可能說你們細節不能透露但是我們希望方向我們是知道的那之後你們用科學的證據來說服我們好不好那最後在這邊提醒大家一下這句話我先念過去不過呢剛剛聽了半天好像都問不到什麼"},{"start":4876.542,"end":4900.82,"text":"明確的這個談判內容等等等一下我們蘇昭瑋可以接著問有一個人曾經說過啊正常的貿易協定跟任何一個政治實體且貿易協定正常需要 需要昭告社會大眾 召開空丁會各行各業的工會加入討論讓行政機關充分獲得資訊了解各行各業的利弊得失我們才能知道談判的重點與籌碼"},{"start":4902.501,"end":4925.914,"text":"第二行政機關出國談判第三談判結果由立法機關審議由於事前授權不完全代表事後不用審議立法機關必須確認行政機關談判並無違法並且符合授權範圍審議過後此貿易協定才能對國內產生法律的效力這句話聽起來很有道理吧很有道理嗎"},{"start":4926.804,"end":4947.53,"text":"包委員我想我們政府在做任何事情一定是廣徵大家的意見不管是產業特別是立法院的一個意見我相信政府這是我們立法院黨團的愛台第一品牌沈博洋大立委曾經做過的發言所以我們希望我們可以堅守同樣的標準"},{"start":4949.23,"end":4974.648,"text":"沈伯陽大立委在監督其他政黨的時候講過這些話我們希望這些事也可以同樣再落實下去因為像現在日本的國會他們在跟立法他們的國會議員討論的時候也許不能給細節但是他們給予大概的方向並且逐步的讓人民去了解為何我們可能需要修改標準等等的這些我希望未來大家可以共同做到各部會可以一起合作好嗎"},{"start":4975.208,"end":4989.551,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝我們一起合作 謝謝謝謝部長我們未完委員會每個委員都很認真喔都是有備而來的喔好 接下來請楊耀委員質詢好 謝謝主席主席我請一下食藥署江署長"},{"start":5011.676,"end":5015.387,"text":"署長好署長不好意思因為問你比較快因為"},{"start":5019.79,"end":5046.102,"text":"台美的貿易談判大概美豬美牛算是國人很重視的一項談判美國的貿易代表署向國會提出了2025年對外貿易障礙的評估報告那在報告中明確的指出台灣對於美豬美牛進口的限制規範是不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":5047.122,"end":5076.31,"text":"那按照世界貿易組織WTO認為什麼叫做不必要的貿易障礙呢就是指有一個國家採取採取進口限制措施未能證明它的必要性跟合理性對於外國商品造成不公平不科學或者是過度的限制這個叫做不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":5077.264,"end":5090.43,"text":"那用這個觀點來看呢我國目前對於美豬美牛的限制規範在食藥署的專業來看是不是屬於不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":5093.841,"end":5112.118,"text":"首先謝謝委員非常精準的提問有關於美國進口台灣的續產品裡面的美豬跟美牛的部分那過去多年來我們知道在牛的開放的時間其實已經超過10年了豬的開放其實在110年的1月1號也開放了"},{"start":5116.662,"end":5145.962,"text":"開放之前其實有非常非常深刻的社會的溝通那談到這個貿易的部分呢其實在食品安全裡面我們強調的叫做Risk Analysis風險的分析風險分析其實包含了三大塊第一大塊叫做風險溝通因為你在乎我在乎委員在乎以及全體的現場的都很在乎所以風險溝通這個議題呢是涵蓋了在做科學的評估"},{"start":5146.742,"end":5161.509,"text":"所以第一項因為大家都覺得食品安全這件事情是最重要的在食安優先的前提之下我們的風險溝通其實一直都是啟動啟動之後因為溝通大家要溝通能夠對話就像我現在講的"},{"start":5165.028,"end":5185.886,"text":"講國語這樣會通 講台語應該也會通所以語言上面要在同一個層次上面去談所以層次上談就是所謂的Risk Analysis裡面的Risk Assessment 風險評估評估要用四大面向來做評估因為我們必須要面對這件事情說我們現在是講的叫做當初的瘦肉精來克多巴胺這個議題"},{"start":5187.487,"end":5215.666,"text":"所以這個評估這之後呢就會牽涉到第二個就是他的所謂的劑量效應到底是怎麼樣的表現然後就叫做後面是風險暴露最後呢才能夠去把他的風險量化出來我之前常常去演講講萊克多巴胺 水狗 講到轉波結果坐在第一排的阿嬤那個粉絲來一直看就點頭微笑阿嬤你怎麼我講說大家在走秘密船你怎麼不走"},{"start":5218.267,"end":5244.157,"text":"意思就是說它其實沒有暴露就沒有風險所以在這種科學的評估的基礎之下呢才能夠去做對談對談之後呢我們把這個標準其實訂出來之後訂出來之後呢回饋給所有的全國的民眾跟回饋給我們的風險管理的機關那目前呢其實就是在衛福部部長領導之下的食藥署來做這件事情所以會訂出這樣子的標準之後"},{"start":5245.217,"end":5274.259,"text":"會有國際的調和國際的調和剛才部長也特別提到說我們會不會成為一個一個障礙的因為國人的飲食習慣其實有非常非常的特殊性這個特殊性裡面我們在未來一定會做非常嚴正的表示那因為國外沒有這樣子的特殊的飲食習慣所以我們這邊就不特別透露出來我們的想法因為那個想法其實是很獨特的有融為有一點點保留那剛才提到的"},{"start":5275.487,"end":5300.643,"text":"會不會是標示在美豬美牛的部分因為我們對於特別豬肉的部分不管是哪一國進來的或者是國內的或者國外的我們其實是一體適用的因為這樣子一體適用我們查查機關我們的監督的行政機關在做的時候才有依據法院的依據那我們其實持續在做那曾經有遇到過就是"},{"start":5301.724,"end":5313.68,"text":"沒有適當的標示的我們也做了裁處因為我們是依法行政行政機關我們能夠幫忙能夠做的大概是這樣子的前提之下來做一些我們對於順便安全的瞭解那"},{"start":5314.98,"end":5344.139,"text":"第二個部分我大概特別提到的是說溝通完之後 風險分析完之後那其實有很多很多調和剛才特別提到的我們會做事前的公告之後公告之後其實是讓吸取全民大家的意見之後再做最後的一個調和跟調整能夠取得最大的共識那事實上這個部分就是我們能夠去做的地方也謝謝楊委員的提案這個題目所以署長剛剛講的大概就是"},{"start":5345.961,"end":5367.48,"text":"風險評估、科學依據、溝通等等還有一個就是平等性也就是說食藥署這邊的看法是美國貿易代表署提出的就是台灣對美豬美牛進口的限制是構成不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":5370.729,"end":5389.714,"text":"這個部分稍微跟委員進一步說明一下因為我們針對這個標示全世界對於原產地的標示這件事情是非常非常的清楚那並沒有特別的形成障礙我看台灣也是不分國籍也都有標示"},{"start":5394.773,"end":5416.051,"text":"我問一下就是美牛的部分因為美豬剛剛署長大概有談到說特定的部位因為有國情的關係所以不方便透露那我這個也就不問了我問一下美牛所以說我們其實在從2021年"},{"start":5421.756,"end":5446.876,"text":"開始就對30個月齡以上的美牛解禁了可是美國對於我國針對部分美牛內臟產品實施施加繁瑣而且非基於科學根據這是他們的用語的邊境查驗程序食藥署這邊有什麼看法"},{"start":5448.818,"end":5475.143,"text":"首先回應委員特別提到的剛才講說珍貴美牛的部分所謂的全靈的牛的開放那開放這個東西是基於一些科學的分析出來的結果科學是怎麼分析的因為對於動物 動物其實也會生病所以動物生病的時候要如何去醫治它有一個世界的組織叫做Ward Organizational Animal Health動物健康我們簡稱叫做WARD"},{"start":5477.023,"end":5498.653,"text":"這個WAR裡面呢其實針對全世界各個國家裡面的續產品它的風險其實有三個層級啦那層級包含就是完全可以忽略的第二個不確定的等等的這三個層級向下我們可以做深刻的由這個第三方國際重要的組織協助確立了"},{"start":5502.005,"end":5518.53,"text":"它在國際標準之下該國的某一個續產品是怎麼樣子讓全世界各國可以去面對面對這個議題我們其實是有深刻的去了解跟進一步的分析在這種前提之下我們才會在後續的"},{"start":5519.21,"end":5535.756,"text":"有機會去假如要進口之前一定要先去國外去了解它的廠這廠事實上是在所謂的QSA Quality System系統的評估Assessment之後才能他們國內做完之後才可以作為"},{"start":5536.776,"end":5556.623,"text":"出口的一個依據所以在這種的國際標準之下其實我們有機會可以確立看到的世界的標準是什麼在做進一步我們在風險在管理的部分做一些調和所以我們在按照這樣子國際的基準之下做的一個評估其實對國人的食品安全的"},{"start":5557.463,"end":5580.466,"text":"把關的部分其實我們用最嚴謹的態度來面對這個非常艱困的一個對談的一個過程以上跟委員報告我也相信食藥署這邊在把關上就從源頭開始到邊境到市場的標示會站在國人健康的立場來做嚴格的把關"},{"start":5581.707,"end":5608.786,"text":"那國際貿易談判是這樣子就是我們有東西要賣出去那人家有東西要賣進來那食藥署這邊大概就會變成最大的苦主啦因為討論度會變得很高那你們的壓力也大我很少佔用 我先跟主席報告我很少佔用委員會的時間那我想我是不是給署長一些時間"},{"start":5610.902,"end":5634.935,"text":"你把你們目前會提供給談判代表的有關食藥署相關對台美貿易談判包括美牛、美豬及所有食藥署相關的事項你們基本的大原則方向"},{"start":5636.834,"end":5665.894,"text":"會提供給貿易代表也藉這個機會跟國人同胞做個說明好不好謝謝委員有機會讓我們可以做進一步的去闡述這個部分最重要的是因為題目其實是公開的是USTR美國的系統性的談判裡面的障礙裡面的報告裡面都有了所以針對的盤幹的部分這邊跟委員做進一步的說明因為談判之前其實是不露底牌"},{"start":5666.754,"end":5689.637,"text":"那因為不露底牌的至少我們的方向是就是食安優先所以就是講大方向對我們就是以食品安全優先以國際的標準那用科學的風險分析為基準之後國際的標準之後才能建置我們國內的市場稽查的整個機制會以這樣子的前提來去做我們推廣推出去我們要去談判的"},{"start":5690.897,"end":5712.889,"text":"這件事情也是回應在先前蔡總統到現在賴總統裡面第一階段的食安五環裡面所謂的源頭管理到所謂的重建生產的管理到第三個要加強查驗第四個對黑心廠商之間的責任到最後的食品全民的監督"},{"start":5713.729,"end":5741.663,"text":"那已經其實去年度就已經變成upgrade變成叫做五環2.0這邊也有機會跟大家做一點說明我們其實最強調的是全民的監督跟源頭的管理特別是源頭管理的這件事情讓我們可以在中央地方可以共同的去集合然後讓產業鏈能夠結合起來更重要的事情對食品安全的教育其實我們重新從頭一起來把它建置得更完整我們要建置一個"},{"start":5742.583,"end":5758.371,"text":"可以當台灣人也可以當世界人甚至要當宇宙人共同為食安的標準是可以溝通的這溝通必須在科學的基礎之下國際的標準之下來進行後續第二個階段"},{"start":5759.986,"end":5776.068,"text":"所以這個食安的教育的部分我們會把這一塊非常非常深植到我們所有的全民的心中了解這一個很重要的基準的原則以上簡單的說明謝謝謝謝署長那我最後提醒一下就是不管"},{"start":5777.389,"end":5795.747,"text":"國際貿易 台美貿易談判的結果是怎麼樣就算都沒有改變我們查額的人力只要需要增加署裡面這邊還是必須要提出相關的預算補足人力好不好首先 我一點點補充不曉得 趙偉這邊趙偉還沒有站起來"},{"start":5799.23,"end":5824.93,"text":"那我們對於邊境的查查其實非常非常地感謝人事總署這邊給予的協助我們去北七查查在基隆關跟我們的港口以外到我們機場我們看到的是非常非常地窄人力上面目前是有72個查查的人力那因為這麼不好的空間人壓力又大"},{"start":5825.791,"end":5850.089,"text":"工作量又多非常非常感謝我們今年度有爭取到33個33位的稽查的人力能夠在我們的邊境做進一步的部署我相信國家給我們的支持給食藥署北區區管這邊的支持也成為我們能夠堅守食品安全更進一步能夠達到維護全民的食安這一項重要任務的我們一定是全力以赴謝謝"},{"start":5851.39,"end":5874.231,"text":"謝謝署長也謝謝所有在座的行政官員大家正在面臨一場非常非常艱困的貿易談判就是我們要把東西賣出去那我們東西賣不出去影響到國人的經濟那我們必須要買進相關的東西買進來的東西我剛剛聽"},{"start":5878.094,"end":5896.819,"text":"實要屬江署長的說明我對執政團隊是有信心的大家加油謝謝署長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝楊耀義你朋友來啦所以齁 讓他說到他開心啦接續我們請王振旭委員質詢好 謝謝主席麻煩農業部杜次長"},{"start":5915.928,"end":5933.202,"text":"市委員好市長好首先就要來討論一下今天的主題就是關稅對於我國農業的衝擊我們雖然已經不是以農利國的主要的一個內涵可是我們知道事實上大家非常關心這次的整個關稅"},{"start":5935.043,"end":5956.153,"text":"不對等之下美國的要求對農業造成的影響大家都非常非常的擔心剛剛也有很多委員也諮詢過那我們也了解其實農業是一個非常具有危險性的產業它危險是來自於有點靠天之犯以外很多的事情可能都會受到波及"},{"start":5956.793,"end":5986.136,"text":"那我們看一下台灣對美國進口的大宗品類裡面我們也知道黃小玉就是最主要的另外就是牛肉那個牛肉剛剛有提到到底美國他們在擔心進大台灣的時候會受到哪一些的影響那如果在零關稅的情形之下我們如何能夠做相對的因應措施我們可以往下看知道說其實我國牛肉94%都是從國外進口當然包括美國 巴拉圭還有澳洲 紐西蘭等等"},{"start":5986.736,"end":6005.665,"text":"那目前針對這一部分美國認為說我們所設定的要求就是無法讓他們進口絞牛肉或者是供動物食用的牛肉的產品還有美國的散裝牛肉等等所以他們很希望能夠"},{"start":6006.585,"end":6025.451,"text":"解禁美國牛肉的產品這個剛剛食藥署那邊也表達過在目前這方面對於國民的國人健康的部分應該要有更周延的好的一個方式來把關所以針對這部分不知道農業部有什麼因應的措施或者是想法"},{"start":6026.155,"end":6053.967,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心也謝謝委員特別支持台灣農業因為就像剛剛委員提到的農業其實是一個非常特別的一個產業那不是只有供我們使用的安全其實對於糧食安全對於整個土地的使用這件事情是長久的那即便是剛剛委員特別關切就是說牛肉的部分確實台灣自己供應自己的牛肉的數量不多大概5到6%所以大部分90幾%都是進口這是第一點"},{"start":6055.848,"end":6081.29,"text":"那第二点就是其实国人食品饮食习惯的改变因为以往其实像在可能四五十年前农业的时候其实吃牛的人不多但是现在其实因为消费习惯改变所以吃牛的人多那国内的肉牛产业有它的特殊性但是牛肉其实是因为第一个饲养跟整个环境然后能够提供到消费者的手上"},{"start":6082.131,"end":6095.797,"text":"是不一樣的因為我們很快從土砂場到消費端的時間是短的那比起進口牛肉要經過運輸冷凍所以對消費者的使用上面跟他的通路是有區隔的但是回過頭來就是說那就農業部來講"},{"start":6097.509,"end":6111.41,"text":"怎麼維持我們台灣肉牛產業的這個競爭性這是農業部要做的那至於剛剛委員提到就是說那美國關切他們牛肉進來台灣好像希望能夠有一些在規定上面的改變我想這限制到兩個層級啦"},{"start":6113.012,"end":6131.92,"text":"第一个成绩是我相信所有的出口国包括我们台湾的农产品要出国我当然希望争取最好的条件希望把所有的相关的限制措施能够降低我相信美国也是基于这样的立场来要求台湾看能不能尽量再打开市场那这是美方立场但就我台湾来讲"},{"start":6133.004,"end":6152.176,"text":"就農業部來講我的重點就是還是要維持我們台灣的農業的安全所以不管是在進口牛肉也許剛剛從那個衛福部這邊的報告其實大家也都知道在不管怎麼開放怎麼談判其實都是基於科學而且國人的安全農業其實一定都要保障我想這是基本立場是不會變的"},{"start":6152.936,"end":6179.263,"text":"是 我非常同意必須要有這樣的具體的做法不過我們也發現 雖然是維持6%可是依照數據看起來 我們這個養牛的這個頭數還是每年在減少 去年甚至減了4.5%到底是什麼原因 我們的這個企業 企業的好處是炒不高 還是有什麼其他的因素所以怎麼樣來維持我們的這個競爭力"},{"start":6182.043,"end":6201.914,"text":"其實基本上我想農業是辛苦的但是農業也在改變譬如說池谷漸漸在減少但是池地雖然戶數減少但是飼養的規模增加所以這是一個產業調整的方向所以對於我們來說我們是覺得說怎麼讓台灣的農業不管是在續勤業也好農業也好怎麼讓我們的農業第一個"},{"start":6209.398,"end":6223.172,"text":"但是我們的經營效能要能夠提升不管是給自動化 給智能化 或是在循環 在減碳在能夠讓整個永續上面來做 這我們會來做至於企業啊 這會減少 我也是覺得說"},{"start":6225.194,"end":6242.206,"text":"當然現流的經營上面其實都有在改變那但是我們是希望就是說留下來有競爭力的那也是我們農業部的最主要的工作就是勞動農業做工作這個事情我們一定會來大家來照顧我們的農民讓他們在經營上面其實能夠得到更多的幫助還能更有效能"},{"start":6242.722,"end":6258.198,"text":"是就是各方面的環境或者是勞動力都需要持續的來分析希望至少至少維持他們該有的這些好的環境好那再過來就是有關於這個我們出口"},{"start":6259.179,"end":6279.398,"text":"到美國大部分都是以這個魚類為主當然最大宗還是這個蝴蝶蘭的這個產品那周圍其實也很關心這個毛豆毛豆覺得很辛苦雖然是占了第五第六位不過我們可以發現十個大量的出口裡面其中也就有六項是屬於這個魚產品"},{"start":6282.982,"end":6301.102,"text":"這漁產品其實川普他也很希望說讓海鮮再次偉大我們可以看下一個幻燈片告訴我們說川普覺得就美國希望再次偉大同時事實上海鮮是重要的我們可以看到"},{"start":6301.622,"end":6319.364,"text":"媒體有相關的報導所以川普要下令要救魚業那這個對台灣可能就有一些衝擊因為我們出美國魚產品有那麼大那麼多想要做全球海鮮的霸主那針對這部分不知道目前市長這邊有沒有哪些因應措施"},{"start":6319.793,"end":6338.328,"text":"好謝謝委員關心其實農產品第一個就像我剛提到農產品的生產其實它有糧食安全的重要性所以不是說有得出口主要是我們自己的台灣糧食自己要能夠維持這是第一點那第二點是那當然如果有全世界的市場我們當然是要能夠去爭取跟維持特別是在海鮮這一塊其實我們跟美國的"},{"start":6341.07,"end":6368.431,"text":"水產的形態不太一樣我們的養殖業相對強那當然也有一些遠洋跟近海的捕撈作業但對我們來講其實美國的關稅對我們來說就是第一美國的市場要購買第二其他市場要去賺就是我們的市場布局其實當然不能只看美國其他市場也要去這樣對農業的整個生產跟做調節才是有幫助那美國自己對自己的不管是農業啦海鮮啦對美國所有的製造業當然美國希望他們是"},{"start":6369.505,"end":6397.236,"text":"有他們的優勢那在台灣我當然是顧我們自己的農業也好我們也希望我們的農業不只是維持我們自己的糧食的供應糧食安全當然也是可以去拚市場的我們一定要去拚所以今拜我們推出三個面向的六大措施也是希望讓我們的產業受影響的狀況能夠降低第二個多過這個時間大家就會來拚啊國外市場要去購新的市場要去拓展啊國內的產銷要把它做好我想這是農業部目前的做法跟目標"},{"start":6397.816,"end":6417.567,"text":"是可以理解不過我們也知道說在川普想要再讓這個美國的漁業再次能夠變成全球的霸主他針對於不同的國家也提出有相關的一些要求因為我們三度上榜強迫勞動清單裡面所受到相關的影響"},{"start":6418.547,"end":6432.713,"text":"那這部分其實漁業署也非常努力在做一些改善的措施包括要改善這個漁工的待遇等等那其實他所提到就是要加強美國要加強審查進口海鮮的非法漁撈跟強迫勞動的"},{"start":6435.915,"end":6452.709,"text":"大綱所提到一個動力的一些如何能夠讓漁工在特定的情形之下能夠符合所有的這些要求那這部分不知道農業部跟勞動部之間有做好哪一些的溝通跟行政執行管道的處理"},{"start":6453.243,"end":6468.877,"text":"有謝謝委員的提醒這件事情其實我們這幾天對於這個在海上捕撈的這些我們的夥伴因為在我們的基準地方做工會是算我們的夥伴那這件事情其實我們這邊做了許多的一些改善比方說我們的那個黃牌被歐盟"},{"start":6470.658,"end":6498.232,"text":"放上之後我們取消掉就表示我們做了一些改善那其實所有對於在海上工作夥伴的勞動力的改善不只是在海上我們譬如說我們前鎮漁港的有一些漁工設施的改善就是說不是只在船上他們克服了上岸之後的這些我們也都有在考慮也做了一些改進那海上的部分大概包括他們的薪資啦包括他們的通訊啦Wi-Fi這些建置還有這個清查"},{"start":6499.512,"end":6522.365,"text":"他們的作業情形這些都有在做那勞動部跟我們其實也一直在就我們的這個勞動力的改善對於這個基準的提升這個部分也非常謝謝我們立法院很多委員其實都很支持幫我們在對這件事情上面有一些協助跟提醒謝謝透過大家努力可以共同克服這個關稅帶來一個衝擊謝謝主席"},{"start":6525.006,"end":6530.788,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝王議員 謝謝次長 講得很誠實來 接下來我們請王一鳴委員謝謝主席我們首先是不是先請我們經貿談判辦公室的嚴副總談判代表還有我們剛剛農業部我們的次長一起上台"},{"start":6557.488,"end":6569.743,"text":"我們這個副總談判代表我首先請教你之前你們已經跟美方有過視訊的會議請問美豬跟美牛有沒有在你們談判的議題之內"},{"start":6572.642,"end":6596.938,"text":"謝謝委員那我想就是基於台美的談判的互信的問題我們基本上談判的議題是沒有辦法在現階段去跟大家揭露的那未來如果適當的一個時機我們會由我們的鄭麗君副院長所領軍的這個談判小組來跟各位所以你不敢對外表態嗎那這個議題會不會是未來談判的一個重要的議題美豬跟美牛"},{"start":6599.921,"end":6620.2,"text":"我想我們現在各國都是看依照美國現在他剛剛實際上很多委員都有提出來美國有提出這個NTE的外國貿易障礙調查報告那我想這些都是我們現在自己可以操之在我的一些準備的方向所以只要列在美方的這個非關稅貿易障礙報告裡面的議題就是未來要談判的議題對不對"},{"start":6626.058,"end":6642.618,"text":"我們只能說它都是一個指引的方向都是一個指引的方向所以就是會談就對了嘛好那這個是我聽到你這邊的說法我要請教一下次長就是說在我們對美的貿易裡面事實上你們今天的報告也很清楚我們的農產品對美國其實是逆差"},{"start":6645.501,"end":6665.432,"text":"逆差了28億所以在這樣的情況底下如果美方還進一步要逼迫我們在美豬跟美牛上面無論是標示也好或者是萊克多巴胺的標準也好或者是再去放寬其他沒有放寬的事項也好你認為這是公平合理的嗎今天我們對他不是順差我們是逆差那這個川普對外講說你們其他國家賺了我們很多錢很抱歉在農產品這一塊是美國"},{"start":6675.297,"end":6690.75,"text":"賺了我們28億美元所以他還有立場在農產品這一塊逼迫我們去退讓嗎是不是我們這一塊的底氣相對是主的因為這個沒有川普總統所說的我們賺他錢喔是他們賺我們28億美元喔"},{"start":6693.755,"end":6717.112,"text":"是謝謝委員特別支持臺灣農業我想如果是我能夠提供任何資料給我們臺灣代表那邊這點我一定會講因為對農業來講我們美國是對我們是順差的是啊其實臺美的貿易其實本來就是互補的我們買進來的黃小玉其實為了臺灣的續產業所以其實即便有這樣的逆差我想美國應該了解這一點這是第一"},{"start":6717.572,"end":6732.76,"text":"那第二個進來的黃小玉其實支持我們的畜牧產業所以其實我覺得這是互補的所以我想如果能夠提供給我們台灣他們代表在農產品的在諮商上面這點一定會放在裡面好我希望我們顏副總代表在這邊你也聽到了我覺得我們在對美談判的時候順差跟逆差談法是不一樣的"},{"start":6738.863,"end":6763.091,"text":"基本上他已經是大量賺我們美金的這個項目我們是更有底氣的我們應該是可以守得很穩的所以在農產品在美豬美牛這一塊我們是有底氣的應該就是要堅守我們的原則我希望我們副總代表在這邊這一點是我們自己有進有退我們的原則應該是要非常清楚的那這個副總代表你可以先回座我接下來請教一下我們次長在我們的現在進口的豬肉裡面"},{"start":6768.315,"end":6774.693,"text":"這個加拿大豬是第一名嘛請問他有沒有萊克多巴胺加拿大的飼養方式他們有沒有添加萊克多巴胺"},{"start":6776.329,"end":6800.092,"text":"應該這樣說其實就衛福部在邊境的檢測部分目前沒有任何一個含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉進到國內不是我是問你說加拿大他們在養他們的加拿大豬的時候養殖的過程會不會添加萊克多巴胺就我所得到資料是沒有好那第二名的這個西班牙豬他們養殖過程會不會添加萊克多巴胺歐盟國家不用"},{"start":6801.113,"end":6806.819,"text":"對 好 這個是第一名跟第二名那第三名呢 第三名我們進口的豬肉是哪一個國家不知道 是巴拉圭巴拉圭他們會不會添加巴拉圭也不准用好 那美國他飼養過程就是會添加萊克多巴對不對"},{"start":6822.264,"end":6851.149,"text":"它應該有的有的沒有啊它準用但是不見得都會添加對有的有用有的沒有用嘛所以這個就是為什麼我們今天從其他國家進來的這個豬肉我們要去標示這個產地國因為很多國家是不用萊克多巴胺包括台灣我們的飼養是不准添加萊克多巴胺的吧對不對對萊克多巴胺在台灣不只不准添加不准使用不准製造不准運輸也不准承受跟分裝"},{"start":6852.63,"end":6872.588,"text":"對 這個就是我們看到的你如果從消費者的角度這麼多的國家是不使用的美國是使用的所以我們今天要求每一個國家標示他的原產地請問這個有違反什麼精神這個是從消費者的角度讓他可以去分辨跟選擇如果美國連這個標示都要我們拿掉我個人覺得是非常的不合理啊"},{"start":6873.708,"end":6901.818,"text":"從剛才食藥署也回答這件事情就是我們對於這個產地的標示並沒有針對美國我們對所有來源都要做標示所以這不會構成任何貿易障礙嘛這也不是問題嘛我要講的就是說今天不是美方說了算嘛他列在他自己認為的這個貿易障礙他自己認為是貿易障礙但是我們必須從我們自己的消費者我們國家的立場去看待嘛我們是對每一個國家都標示啊我不是只有標美國啊加拿大我也標啊"},{"start":6902.518,"end":6918.493,"text":"對不對好那另外一個我要問你的就是現在之前有發生過這個洗產地的問題我們現在進口美國的豬肉你如果從這個豬肉儀表板你可以看到到去年有7778公噸豬肉加內臟那這個在2023年更是高峰來到16314公噸那這一些進口的"},{"start":6929.262,"end":6954.767,"text":"美豬還有他的內臟我要問這個農業部就是請問他們去了哪裡因為市面上包括消機會他們去把所有的產品拿來看他的標示事實上都很難發現美豬的蹤跡那這些量你不能說他很少喔一萬六千多公噸跟七千多公噸這個量是很大的這樣這個量到了市面上之後完全看不到標示"},{"start":6956.608,"end":6965.383,"text":"這個農業部有掌握嗎 這應該是你們掌握的吧它的流向食藥署是不是 好 那你先請回來食藥署跟部長請上來這個我幫消費者問"},{"start":6970.407,"end":6990.183,"text":"因為按照我們的食安法是要標示成分的但是很多的加工品裡面我們現在都看不到美國豬有看到加拿大但是美國豬就是沒有看見請問都去了哪裡你們不是有做源頭的管理嗎追蹤嗎每一個肉餅商進口進來之後你們會追蹤他的流向我現在就幫消費者問請問這些美豬跟內臟都去了哪裡好是不是這個問題請江市長"},{"start":6997.557,"end":7021.046,"text":"好 署長來謝謝委員的提問有關於豬肉的原產地的標示這件事情那其實是國際的標準所有的都會標示進來的一定都會標示對 你就直接回答我就是美豬到底現在去了哪裡它的流向去了哪些去處為什麼市面上這些包裝的食品它的原料裡面其實都沒有看到美豬"},{"start":7022.86,"end":7044.4,"text":"這邊稍微做簡單的說明因為進來之後流布出去的流量其實是市場自由的機制那我們面對這個議題裡面我們就是後市場端我們去查查從110年到114年我們總共查了297,756件其中標示不合格的我們可以看到是111件"},{"start":7046.061,"end":7065.94,"text":"那其中19件是美豬的產品所以表示我們在查查過程中也不是都是不合格都是美豬其他地方也有可能沒有好好標示只要沒有好標示我們在抽查市場機制我們會堅持做下去總共採取了有300多萬的一個裁罰的金額所以同學跟委員"},{"start":7066.5,"end":7081.529,"text":"署長我問你齁2023年有發生席產地的就是美豬標加拿大豬喔當時這個媒體都有報導那請問這樣的一個席產地的現象到去年2024年還有沒有持續在發生"},{"start":7082.113,"end":7107.26,"text":"我們目前查查的狀況就沒有看到進一步有證據說是有息產地的跟委員做進一步的報告去年零件都沒有我們去年去做的相關的一個查查我們不管是在衛生局的協作或我們其他的同仁後市場的調查裡面都沒有看到這邊跟委員做進一步就沒有息產地的情況還是你們沒查到而已"},{"start":7107.72,"end":7113.701,"text":"那你們有沒有去比對去年有7778公噸喔這7778公噸請問它的流向到哪裡去然後這樣的流向跟你們的查核你有沒有去做一些勾擊跟比對確定說它沒有去剛剛提到市場機制是出去嘛對不對然後標示我們在"},{"start":7130.985,"end":7152.825,"text":"行政機關裡面對於這個標示的部分目前我們持續監測的所以監測出來是沒有的因為沒有這樣的結果我們就會很做適當的一個宣布也做長期在我們的儀表板上面做一個揭露那針對這個議題我們持續的不會因為今天講完沒有明天我們就停下來我們還是持續做我們堅持"},{"start":7153.846,"end":7173.186,"text":"那你應該要跟大家報告7778公噸它的主要的流向是去哪裡都沒有進到食品加工業嗎如果進到食品加工業它就應該要標示嗎但是在後端的所有的產品裡面沒有看見這樣的一個產品那它是化整為零了嗎它是不是都到這種市場上去了變成是絞肉"},{"start":7175.228,"end":7192.209,"text":"然後絞肉只要他沒有標示或者是在市場上面根本沒有標示所以其實都吃下去大家也不知道還有內臟的部分進這麼多的從豬腳大腸頭肝臉整個他是不是都進到一些的小吃店去但是小如果是小吃店不是也應該要標示嗎"},{"start":7193.854,"end":7207.811,"text":"你們有真的好好去追蹤嗎按照我們的飲食餐廳的標準底下我們有特別的標示也有去查查這個部分而且目前揭露的我們看到非常非常多台灣豬剛才提到台灣食用是佔90%是國內的"},{"start":7209.893,"end":7224.595,"text":"因此他的標示裡面看到的不管哪一個產地的標示都其實我們消費者一眼其實在清理的時候所以我在問你的就是那明明有7000多公噸到去年還有7000多公噸的豬肉跟內臟進來了"},{"start":7225.717,"end":7249.833,"text":"但是市面上你沒有看到有任何一個小吃攤有標出來難不成他就消失了嗎他到底去了哪裡啊我要你食藥署要掌握就是你應該要掌握他的流向你才知道說他到底有沒有真實的標示嗎我跟委員做進一步報告因為流向進來之後就會流不出去是啊流不出去的時候我們其實有在邊境的時候就做什麼的BPIBorder Protection Interest"},{"start":7250.413,"end":7278.3,"text":"用人工智慧去知道所以我們都知道是在哪裡對知道在哪裡如果發生是有違規的我們針對這個人工智慧裡面會增加抽查抽驗的比例你的所謂違規是什麼就是沒有好好標示這是一項中間的一項可是任何的你指的是你原來的那個美國豬肉進口一進口的時候標它是美國豬吧我現在在問你的是它流到下游之後的這個流向"},{"start":7278.72,"end":7306.129,"text":"照道來講它源頭如果是美國豬我們現在的標示是你即使到下游你是小吃店 你是店家你有使用到你就應該要把那個成分說我有使用你可能有使用台灣豬加美國豬你就應該要清楚的揭露但現在市面上完全看不到的情況底下那是不是就是有人有使用但是沒有在標示嘛這一點你們應該要去掌握嘛7000多公噸是很大的一個數量"},{"start":7306.929,"end":7328.093,"text":"但是市面上看不到也不合理報告委員因為我們查查的過程是一體適用到所有的標示向下之後去查如果沒有特別的違規的狀況之下我們也是一體的對待任何一個廠家他們在標示上面的所以的確我們現在看到的是並沒有特別有違規的一個狀況特別跟委員做進一步的報告"},{"start":7330.974,"end":7351.945,"text":"對 我覺得署長你們現在的查核還是有疏漏 你們沒有反向去查就是說有些店家你抽查 他進口的肉商是從哪邊來這個肉商在網上 如果他對到 他其實就是從美國進口來的那為什麼他在這一個店家 他就沒有標示出來這個就是漏洞嘛 就是說這個跟習產地是大概一樣的道理"},{"start":7352.946,"end":7376.684,"text":"2023年有查到這個是大量的它因為是冷凍食品然後它這樣子出去但是現在有更多我懷疑它是進到了一般的傳統市場跟小吃店它根本也沒有在標示要不然你想一個基本的道理就知道消極會說很奇怪7000多噸還是一個很大的量結果市面上沒有任何一個產品就是你看到美國豬三個字"},{"start":7377.898,"end":7390.287,"text":"那這個就是有問題嘛我希望這個食藥署在這個把關上面喔你們還是應該是要就是在運用一些方法 好不好謝謝委員 我們一定會積極加強的追蹤對 你們該集合 該查核的才是查核喔因為今天部長 來最後部長你今天對外說你還是會堅持四個原則喔其中有兩個原則一個是落實邊境跟市場稽查我現在在講的就是那你市場稽查這項其實不能放"},{"start":7406.88,"end":7432.409,"text":"在我們現行的規定裡面我覺得就是要讓消費者非常清楚的知道我們進口了美國的豬肉跟內臟他到底到哪裡去消費者可以選擇吃或選擇不吃有的人不怕沒有關係有的人他就是要選擇真正的台灣豬他就是不要吃外國的我覺得就是要保留給消費者選擇權好不好我們一定透過部會跟中央地方的合作落實邊境差異跟市場的計差"},{"start":7433.089,"end":7447.119,"text":"好,我希望市場稽查要徹底的落實,謝謝謝謝委員、市長謝謝王委員、謝謝部長接下來我們請楊瓊英委員執行我們在林淑芬委員執行完畢後休息十分鐘"},{"start":7455.765,"end":7469.199,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊瑜發言邀請這個經濟農業部次長還有談判辦公室的代表以及這個邱部長我們就一起討論謝謝如果我們討論到哪一個議題就請相關單位主動回答謝謝"},{"start":7481.299,"end":7503.453,"text":"我們都知道無論是臺美零關稅或者是非關稅的貿易障礙我國的農業都會受到重大的一個影響所以本席首先要請問在4月15號的時候農業部市長在這邊農業部長陳俊濟在立法院答詢的時候他就說了不會把農業議題推到第一線"},{"start":7504.913,"end":7508.894,"text":"來跟美方來談判絕對不會犧牲了農業民的一個權益將其作為談判的籌碼但是到了21號呢那院長卓榮泰又說了農業談判一直是很大的重點政府會以民眾的健康引用國際的標準來做橫頻的考量"},{"start":7526.798,"end":7540.046,"text":"但是我們看到據報導有學者認為美方的目的遠不止只有要降低關稅喔而是希望我們要開放更多的農產品的市場那請問是如此嗎"},{"start":7542.017,"end":7568.746,"text":"謝謝委員關心那特別是我們在農業的部分委員從我們的農業觀察上就是我們的農業就農業部來講肯定是要守住我們的農業的最大利益那兩件事情跟委員報告第一個美國對台灣的農產品其實享有順差28億美元我想這件事情我們一定會讓美方知道不是沒有買我們其實買很多買到美國對我們台灣是有順差這是第一點那第二點台美之間的農產品貿易其實是互補的"},{"start":7569.346,"end":7593.332,"text":"那對於淨化住宅是黃小玉我們出口是我們的強項產品比方說是蝴蝶蘭或是我們的漁產品所以兩方是互補的我想這件事我們也會跟美方講是就講我們目前對待他的方式是如何但是請針對本席的提問美方目前為止是不是不只是降低關稅而是希望開放更多的農產品市長沒有收到這樣的訊息來談判辦公室"},{"start":7597.112,"end":7614.293,"text":"方向是如何呢謝謝委員因為我們現在如果我剛才提到我們台美的談判當然都還是在進行當中那我們現在只能說從美國一開始川普政府所提出來的訴求降低關稅解決非關稅貿易障礙以及降低他"},{"start":7615.329,"end":7626.552,"text":"貿易逆差這都是他的訴求所以他這個訴求是不分工業產品農業產品都是一體式所以有這個可能喔他不只是要降低關稅而且要增加更多的農產品市場的這個市場如果為了解決他的貿易逆差當然這個是一個可能的一個方向因為我們要防範才能夠去應對所以就成如我們看到日本日本在之前就要將增加美國米進口作為談判的籌碼"},{"start":7644.696,"end":7669.583,"text":"所以引發了他們國內的一個反對因為這會導致日本稻農它的數量會下降所以在這樣的情況之下 本席要請教就像美豬牛鬆綁以及基改食品的開放那麼農業零關稅等是不是現在是成為我們台美談判的重點美方是不是如此 請教談判辦公室"},{"start":7670.74,"end":7685.877,"text":"我想我們跟美國的之間的這些談判呢除了討論到這些農產品的市場開放問題但是很重要的另外一個是我們要去考量我們自己國內的產業發展以及我們本身還有這些國人的健康跟糧食安全的考量"},{"start":7686.337,"end":7704.166,"text":"好非常感謝你說必須要考量到我們我們也不希望本席特別舉日本的例子國內的反對那我們更應當要保護我們自己的產業這是非常非常的重要所以我本席再次請問我方的立場究竟是如何"},{"start":7706.295,"end":7726.515,"text":"我想我們都是跟我們的我們這個談判團隊各有分工所以我們就是協調我們的農工部門共同來討論這些各個關稅跟非關稅議題的立場然後我們再來決定一個最符合台灣利益的保護我國國內的農業那請教農業部市長我方的立場"},{"start":7728.243,"end":7739.708,"text":"就農業玻璃廠當然是以農業為最優先要守護的一定要全力以赴本席強調我們不能只有用GDP的數值來看農業農業它不是只有一個單一的一個產業因為它攸關了糧食的安全生態文化不該輕易的放棄讓步這絕對不可以所以在非關稅貿易障礙的"},{"start":7751.713,"end":7756.856,"text":"當中跟零關稅的部分我們絕對不可以輕易來犧牲食安跟我們的農業那所以根據美國2025年各國貿易障礙評估的報告我們台灣僅能夠進口30個月以上的美國牛肉但是禁止進口這個絞牛肉而且嚴格的檢驗牛的內臟以及豬肉則是以國際標準不符的方式來檢驗萊克多巴胺"},{"start":7779.907,"end":7790.957,"text":"而且我們必須要要求一定要標示產地對不對目前我們的作為是如此但是這些皆被任美方視為非關稅貿易的障礙所以本校請問美豬美牛可能因為關稅談判來鬆綁會取消標示產地嗎請做說明"},{"start":7802.912,"end":7830.92,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心 我想我們站在衛福部的立場 我們會提供這是一個談判是一個團隊剛剛談判這邊的代表也有講我們收集所有的專業 站在維護人民的健康尤其在衛福部我們對食安方面的堅持提供專業的科學的分析然後大概也去了解國際的標準這樣來提供"},{"start":7831.9,"end":7837.104,"text":"細節部長的說明因為產品產地的標示不應該成為談判的一個籌碼這個是非常的重要因為在2021年當中進口萊豬食對台灣豬農跟消費者的承諾如果棄守是社會沒有辦法接受的所以本席也強調美方也希望要開放我們的基改食品"},{"start":7858.661,"end":7886.081,"text":"那立法院也通過提案學童健康安全是全民的底線並非單純的貿易議題絕不能拿學童健康作為談判的籌碼並且要堅持依據我們學校衛生法不開放基改食品進校園這也是本席的一個堅持請教政府是不是我們堅持承諾絕不開放基改的食品進入校園請教"},{"start":7891.322,"end":7917.179,"text":"堅持給我們學童最安全的一個食品是我們一不變的道理不變的堅持而且我們會依據科學的分析來提供給我們所有的政策一定要堅持這一點是我們絕對不可以妥協基改的食品絕對不能進校園這是我們一定要好好來維護我們全國的學童的一個食安安全"},{"start":7919.4,"end":7922.421,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 是不是請我們這個部長和署長"},{"start":7953.97,"end":7974.383,"text":"因為我們署長大家頗為為以重任你和那個台大醫院明顯這個院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才啊腎臟科醫師讀藥品的專業還有具有法律措施的學位的確是三刀流"},{"start":7975.663,"end":7996.932,"text":"那署長就任的時候也一直在強調說這個強化邊境的查驗然後呢我們其實有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下就是說署長以前也接受過政府的委託報告那有一篇叫寒川的廢水排放後的食品安全影響研析還有風險溝通"},{"start":7998.973,"end":8017.431,"text":"這幾年的署長在風險溝通上包括剛才的這個答詢上顯然看起來是很專業的但是呢再怎麼專業我是在這裡希望因為看到你的報告以後有幾個這個態度上的問題特別要跟署長就教我是希望"},{"start":8019.994,"end":8046.821,"text":"我是希望這件事情可以溝通因為啊你主持的這一個報告的這個我在報告寫的內容是講說啊以食品添加物為例當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分的時候往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害然後這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估然後"},{"start":8048.881,"end":8072.239,"text":"你後面在這裡前面你控訴了說如果擔心太過擔心看到一連串這個標示不明的化學成分會恐懼這個是來自於知識的缺乏可是你的單數又說只要消費者不使用過量只要身體的代謝功能正常這不會對身體健康構成威脅"},{"start":8073.46,"end":8102.091,"text":"前面說人民可能知識不足後面說科學的風險評估的變相還很多那我要提醒你是希望這一套不要用在立法院因為這件事情知識提大你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候不要忘了你所加的但書必須是身體代謝功能正常而我要提醒你一件事情台灣人的代謝症候群40歲以上有將近四成"},{"start":8103.052,"end":8117.853,"text":"都罹患三高然後呢20到64歲我想都是衛福部的數據每4人就1人罹患20到6464以上更高啦每4人就1人罹患代謝症候群"},{"start":8118.714,"end":8147.344,"text":"而且三高的自支率民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我的感知20歲以上的高血壓自支率是68血糖自支率是66血脂的自支率是23其實三高人數在2023年你們也發表有47%將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群而且都不知道自己有三高"},{"start":8148.065,"end":8148.708,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面你在"},{"start":8152.899,"end":8177.851,"text":"對人民這個說知識缺乏的時候其實你要知道人民並不是知識缺乏其實相反的人民自己知道我可能有三高所以我對於太多的添加物我們是有擔心的OK那我要跟他溝通的是這個署長我要溝通的是這個態度你的報告的態度其實我不太能接受你的說法那我要就叫部長和署長就是說一直以來食藥署的問題在哪裡啊"},{"start":8182.213,"end":8210.805,"text":"食藥署部長其實包裝了一個形象上非常專業的確也很專業 我不好意思說是包裝是真的也很專業但食安專家 腎臟科 毒物科的專家法律的碩士但是要真的要把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情而且要明食相符在這種狀況 台灣食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多署長"},{"start":8212.045,"end":8239.635,"text":"如果整個衛福部食藥署你上任的時候你的觀察你覺得台灣面臨的這個食安的挑戰有哪些呢好 謝謝這是不是請署長好 那署長你來回答好了謝謝委員的提問我首先針對剛剛委員提到的寒川水廢水排水的這個計畫裡面做一點點的回應那上面寫的"},{"start":8240.675,"end":8265.315,"text":"的確像是學者當老師在教同學的時候覺得我們需要給他更多的期待把我們知道的東西從科學的意義這是政府的委外報告對政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民說你無知所以這邊我們非常非常虛心的接受委員這樣的指導我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變學者跟當官員不一樣那是你學者的時候寫的好"},{"start":8267.096,"end":8286.191,"text":"謝謝委員給我一點點的空間你覺得台灣的食安問題你自己從接任到現在面臨的挑戰有哪些食品安全的議題裡面我稍微說明一下最大的議題是任何一個食品安全議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題"},{"start":8287.492,"end":8309.827,"text":"所以在標定一個特定議題的過程中我們就是會食品安全的風險分析會導入你知道過去的食品安全的議題都是接避者揭發的幾乎都是接避者所以我上一次質詢問你食品也是藥品也是所以是接避者主動去揭發然後才產生問題然後你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管"},{"start":8312.532,"end":8328.362,"text":"過去是這樣子但我認為我認為江志剛署長有能力不應該只是這樣子謝謝委員這邊的提點因為食安的管制其實在食安五環到現在五環2.0它是全面性的建構"},{"start":8329.463,"end":8345.52,"text":"接避者是其中一但事實上我們的團隊行政團隊主動去查查中央地方的合作的檢驗其實跟整個產業鏈所謂的公司協力自主規制我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈接"},{"start":8346.994,"end":8356.041,"text":"更重要的事情是業者之間的工協會他們發揮了很重要功能達到了很努力的地方你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講說像班克列酸、諾羅病毒、仙人掌、桿菌等生物性危害這種生物性危害蘇丹虹、農藥殘留等化學性危害你們都要進行控管但是我要告訴你說這種議題歷史已經翻頁了"},{"start":8370.652,"end":8375.273,"text":"我們不要總是一直停留在過去政府要深刻的反省主動去發現問題而且解決我們當初的食安五環我們登陸制度都認為說能夠達到預警的效果然後可以主動發現問題然後政府就可以達到風險控管事實上"},{"start":8387.637,"end":8407.078,"text":"都沒有運作出來而且都是接避者然後事情發生了以後才發現整個制度有問題那食藥署的過去都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳台灣的食品安全如果是這樣子的話這樣的管理方式的話會不斷的重演那我們現在在這裡就是說我在這裡要問署長你有沒有吃零食的習慣"},{"start":8408.519,"end":8426.017,"text":"署長有 很少啦 我這個健康取向這個齁 過年期間人家送我們很多家家戶戶大概是人手一包有沒有吃過這種零食 核桃 核桃大家都有吃過喔 簡體制的包裝 來"},{"start":8428.677,"end":8450.645,"text":"但是也有合格輸入有這個代理商的這一包兩三百元這一包一百元我們去蝦皮上網購了然後呢伴手禮在夜市在網路隨手買得到那我為什麼要講這個事情因為在2月3號我們辦公室發了公文給你們食藥署"},{"start":8452.265,"end":8466.891,"text":"要求去查明大量的網路這個販售未辦理輸入產品的資訊申報未辦理查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃除了嚴重造成國人健康風險而且已經違反了食安法請貴屬詳查要求他下架而且我們去問來講說30天內把你開罰的狀況來告訴我們回報一下結果你們的公文回復是這樣子啦"},{"start":8480.677,"end":8497.591,"text":"你們去查買了六件的確就有一件發現添加不許可的這個食品添加物然後呢最後你們又講說這是電商平台所以你們要叫地方政府自己去依法查查好像這件事情你就沒了好像就沒了"},{"start":8500.214,"end":8512.347,"text":"我們在講是因為立委辦公室出門叫你查立委舉一個舉一件產品就馬上通通都是然後呢 到底有沒有下架有沒有開罰"},{"start":8514.564,"end":8537.594,"text":"這邊跟委員做進一步報告新疆紙皮烤核桃炒本味當初這個也非常感謝委員給我們指導跟給我們機會能夠快速的了解了解之後我們在我們檢舉的時候你還沒上任但你回文是一個多月以後3月14號才公文回覆我們所以照理說也應該開罰了有沒有開罰"},{"start":8539.815,"end":8561.013,"text":"有的,我們後續呢開法誰?我們因為查查的過程當中標示的結果五件不符合規定所以我們因此有兩件不是標示不符合規定喔未查驗沒有代理商在這種狀況裡面他是違反很多法律,不是只有標示喔還不只是標示喔同時呢我們就積極的就裁處了裁處誰啦?"},{"start":8567.438,"end":8579.805,"text":"這個採取的是進口的部分我們有採取了六萬塊錢那在網路電商上你們到底是罰誰跟委員報告現在網路電商的部分我們面對都是用你們六件是去實體店鋪買的嗎"},{"start":8583.187,"end":8596.959,"text":"呃我們是用網路平台架構的對那你網路平台架構我問你說你處罰誰啊你處分的對象是誰為什麼一直都講不出來這個部分呢對於電商的部分我們只能說告訴他有違規的所以沒有處分電商"},{"start":8599.313,"end":8622.373,"text":"然後也沒有處分廠商對廠商電商有提供廠商的資料給你採取嗎對所以我們在這個部分就採取了部分我現在在問你平台下架電商的部分現在網路上是不是還可以買到為辦理輸入產品資訊申報查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃"},{"start":8623.553,"end":8642.709,"text":"還是不是可以繼續買這個報告委員我們這個持續跟這個平台只要有違規的關鍵字的部分都請他在二次小時能下架這個我們前幾天才買的蝦皮繼續在賣而且大量你點進去大家使用蝦皮現在馬上新疆紙皮烤核桃馬上全部都是"},{"start":8643.49,"end":8664.725,"text":"都沒有查驗登記沒有台灣未符合台灣相關法令你們買六件就有一件是很恐怖的不允許添加的有許可添加的也搞不好有的超標為了今天的質詢我還打開吃了一下吃了以後覺得很噁心但是我還是吃了喝了三杯水但是我要講說我不是要講這個"},{"start":8666.38,"end":8687.034,"text":"主角於邊境今天邊境淪陷了長驅直入沒有主角於邊境這一件事而且電商這種中國違法販賣的食品整個網路上通通都是然後邊境"},{"start":8688.069,"end":8702.255,"text":"喔 不要忘了這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫 你看這個已售出 來兩萬包 已售出兩萬包 已售出幾百包 已售出左下角3.8萬包台灣人"},{"start":8705.799,"end":8718.65,"text":"大家瘋狂的買啊在電商上瘋狂的買江志剛署長掌管的食藥署你說有檢舉你就叫他下架沒檢舉了就不下架了嗎"},{"start":8722.1,"end":8740.004,"text":"沒有檢舉我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲所以現在我們爬到你們有人工智慧在爬書然後有下架還會這樣子這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁來你再去看叫大家現場蝦皮再打開保證裡面還一堆我們隨時積極的我們會隨時關鍵字會這樣持續的來打你這樣子的話一個月處分幾件"},{"start":8748.154,"end":8775.822,"text":"他這裡你處分多少你說你們關鍵字然後再管理所以特別我們最近的財閥有點兇所以財閥兇的情形之下來啦多兇啊你都告訴我們到底是多兇賣到下下叫的中國產品多少有毒物質台灣人已經吃下肚而台灣的三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高對台灣人的健康風險有多嚴重"},{"start":8776.782,"end":8804.845,"text":"這個有符合食品衛生法裡面第30條的規定嗎有報官查驗嗎有經過邊境的這個把關嗎已經長驅直入了長驅直入了而且不是只有線上欸這個實體店家都有滿山滿谷 滿坑滿谷都是中國食品而且小孩子最愛的我們還買了剛才那是大人最愛的現在是小孩最愛的這麼多"},{"start":8809.298,"end":8835.169,"text":"太多了 我也不曉得要拿多出來全部都是小孩的 全部都是小孩的小孩的 電商就買得到的 滿坑滿谷給小孩吃的零食中國來的 沒有檢驗 沒有查驗沒有進口商 沒有受台灣法律安全規範的而且沒有政府在管理的"},{"start":8836.689,"end":8846.616,"text":"從透過網購、郵購甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入台灣沒有邊境把關了沒有邊境把關"},{"start":8848.399,"end":8873.486,"text":"所以署長為什麼要講這件事情是因為不要打高空不要唱高調這個事情你把這件事情管好就功德無量真的食品安全的風險管控在哪裡在生活當中而這個在夜市實體店面就在賣不用到網路所以到底是不知道還是不想做"},{"start":8874.746,"end":8892.879,"text":"還是你們跟你們無關 我不好意思說這是裝睡的人叫不行因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人叫不行啦那因為江署長三刀流的不可多得的人才 我就相信你不是叫不行的人"},{"start":8893.92,"end":8902.827,"text":"所以署長你有沒有去逛過夜市 你有後市場抽驗 後市場檢查過嗎食藥署有預算進行輿情監測有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫然後有這個你們講的導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫還有食品大數據的智能監控及風險偵測預警研究"},{"start":8920.649,"end":8926.746,"text":"千萬百萬然後這種東西你告訴我說你們通通沒有在管然後有這些預算"},{"start":8928.197,"end":8955.173,"text":"然後呢其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉在夜市裡面夜市裡面太多太多中國違反違法的零食商品在地方政府都沒有反應上來你們都無知嗎所以在這種狀況裡面我是要講電商就算了我們大家上網就知道你知道實體店面離我們距離最近的在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":8956.013,"end":8964.144,"text":"你知道嗎立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品最近的在哪裡你知道嗎這個要委員提示在樓下立法院的福利社前面都有在賣來"},{"start":8975.609,"end":8998.653,"text":"然後呢店家還說這一批很新鮮製造日期2025年你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品他說飛機、海運、小山通都很方便更不用說到台灣以後夜市市場或是大家都很好賣因為台灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃所以我們有邊境嗎邊境有把關嗎有阻絕於境外嗎"},{"start":9003.584,"end":9016.016,"text":"已經長驅直入 而且變像話所以在這裡隨便都數萬包在賣然後在這種 你剛剛驗出來你們自己驗出來 甜味濟糖精環擠雞帶黃溪胺酸鈉"},{"start":9020.7,"end":9049.423,"text":"一規定都要退運一規定都要銷毀你開了一張罰單你還讓他繼續賣然後你是覺得長輩的肝汗腎代謝功能都可以全台灣的都沒有代謝症候群了嗎這個就是為什麼我們要我們的肝汗腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢更不要講這不是單一事件去年我記得林次長有說"},{"start":9050.862,"end":9063.228,"text":"辣平糖啦 魔芋爽啦在你們禁止這個以前我都還記得我的小孩也拿一個紅紅汽汽的魔芋爽回來吃我一看就說這很恐怖就他說很好吃所以這些未經中國來的未經查驗的沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角早就充斥在全台灣的民眾的生活當中"},{"start":9080.259,"end":9107.611,"text":"所以歷史翻了這麼多頁 新的課題永遠在這裡政府 政府要承擔起這個責任啊 署長署長三刀流人才 應該不是立委跟你講這些的選擇啦這個食藥署 除了你以外 其他人都是舊的從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代 再做到賴清德時代食藥署很多人都是三朝 四朝 五朝元老了啦他們喔"},{"start":9110.683,"end":9127.108,"text":"我不好意思說太難聽啦你署長沒有上警發條下面的人絕對不會上警發條然後國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面不是一個署長很厲害有那麼多改變"},{"start":9129.588,"end":9146.476,"text":"我現在提醒你是務實一點讓人民的生活真的從生活的從小的到老的從生活的所有每一項讓我們的風險降低一點少一點這個就是最務實的做法"},{"start":9148.571,"end":9159.397,"text":"謝謝委員 委員特別提到風險能夠降低那我們一定會基於這個 希望能夠趨近移民 零風險很困難你剛才下面的人給你唸的稿子 你們什麼爬蟲啦 然後關鍵字啦那都沒在做 也沒好啦他跟你虛偽 跟你說 你拿來這裡回答立委馬上要打槍啊 馬上上網 馬上蝦皮 馬上去點"},{"start":9175.377,"end":9181.624,"text":"幾萬包 幾萬包 還在 還在你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎完全都一籌莫展嗎"},{"start":9186.38,"end":9203.787,"text":"對不對不要再講那種官方 官槍官吊 官方的標準回答不要讓你下面的人蒙蔽了你啊我簡單的就是這麼說好 繼續喔 我要繼續看喔我們繼續追喔謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝林淑芬委員休息6分鐘"},{"start":9219.142,"end":9219.382,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":9248.612,"end":9249.176,"text":"鸡蛋"},{"start":9594.704,"end":9597.326,"text":"好現在繼續開會接下來我們邀請蘇清泉委員好謝謝主席我請"},{"start":9624.675,"end":9632.957,"text":"農業部 杜次長還有我們經貿辦 嚴首席代表次長 我們貧困關 農業關市地市污都很多 我們的養殖業也發達"},{"start":9650.563,"end":9679.563,"text":"那我們台灣現在的漁業差不多近海捕魚近海魚撈跟遠洋魚撈差不多占45%差不多嘛那鄉網養殖跟岸上養殖差不多占55%那這間呢美國這樣搞下去我們才發現說這個農業是要好好的保護啦我跟你講一個data"},{"start":9680.851,"end":9707.02,"text":"加薩走廊加薩走廊現在的難民差不多兩百萬人差不多190到210以色列是要炸哪裡就炸哪裡要殺誰就殺誰小孩子嬰兒都不放過這就是戰爭已經死了十萬人左右啦那加薩走廊什麼都沒有那每天需要的水"},{"start":9708.663,"end":9727.634,"text":"每天需要的糧食差不多沒辦法供應30%所以我們的農業台灣的農業重不重要當然重要我去日本我看到日本的米它的價值差不多泰國的五倍"},{"start":9729.008,"end":9751.316,"text":"那些看日本人離開泰國,都賣什麼?賣米!因為日本的米太貴,又太好吃了所以要拿泰國米來討所以農業一定要保護這一次我們屏東的毛豆,差不多佔了51%差不多一年的6000公噸"},{"start":9754.257,"end":9761.203,"text":"我們鱸魚 整條島 還有台灣鯛我們北東也有一些在那你怎麼還要保護呢一定的你也要幫我起那你們編了180億夠嗎"},{"start":9770.47,"end":9782.739,"text":"謝謝委員支持臺灣農業這是一定要做因為農業真的不是說是吃飽吃好其實是一個糧食安全和國家安全的基礎那當然也是一個文化傳承那181 到底夠不夠我相信這樣說現時我們是先變這件事希望是渡費這個困難"},{"start":9787.503,"end":9802.731,"text":"都怪這個困難這個是短時間之內那以這個美國現在10%的關稅來看先這樣做長期來看支持農業一直要往前走這絕對不是只有180億現在要做的事情農業部肯定要一直跟我們台灣農業站在一起"},{"start":9803.511,"end":9817.489,"text":"對啦,所以我們經貿辦這邊談判,我們台灣的農業,剛才很多委員講,已經是對美國是入操了嘛,所以我們才有底氣嘛,美國是前九十萬的低價估估,"},{"start":9821.474,"end":9832.384,"text":"我記得在第八屆立委的時候,我非常欽佩田秋琴委員、陳潔如委員我在當召委,他們堅持就是要零檢出邱部長你也是說要零檢出嘛但是2021年開放,什麼40個PPB、10個PPB"},{"start":9844.287,"end":9872.336,"text":"現在進來的 剛剛你講的大部分也都是沒有用萊克多巴胺嘛 對不對只有美國進來的有 是這樣酒都要保留在裡面 我只推廣 我也贊成我也來Promote 只有台灣豬啦我都要保留在裡面 我不會替美國人說話啦我在舊金山Fremont那邊看那個超市我去看他們 真的跑去看他們的超市的豬肉跟牛肉"},{"start":9873.223,"end":9891.91,"text":"他標示得很清楚耶這個有用瘦肉精的這個沒有瘦肉精的分開然後你要買實在是另一回事你要吃瘦肉精的吃瘦肉精這個我跟大家報告那個有加瘦肉精的那個價格是比沒有加瘦肉精的還貴一點"},{"start":9894.364,"end":9908.109,"text":"真的是瘦肉,油花比較少,因為有代謝所以要標示,標示最重要我們自己的所有商業都要保護你進口的美國豬肉"},{"start":9915.404,"end":9929.808,"text":"八千多噸嘛 每一年進來 剛才王玉敏一直在追 一直在追說都遭遇到 都遭遇到營養午餐啦 遭遇到7-11啦營養午餐不能用進口 當然都這樣說啊營養午餐張Q一定是我們台灣國產的 農業部理廠也只推廣台灣豬"},{"start":9941.107,"end":9960.337,"text":"希望是這樣啦那我們現在養豬的頭數你說6000多個養豬場屏東都佔了20幾%左右屏東的場數最多最多嘛那我們一直在關心現在我們的豬肉也可以銷日本冷藏的就可以銷日本那要不然加工的啦"},{"start":9961.175,"end":9982.689,"text":"不不不,這間餵一箱,這間餵一箱有出去,去新加坡我也有去參加,台灣的豬肉本身品質也非常好那外務部的標示跟農委會的標示,欸你標示這是什麼意思啦是農委會比較厲害,還是外務部比較厲害,為什麼標示都不一樣"},{"start":9987.981,"end":9995.946,"text":"這樣就能夠證明是我們台灣豬啊不然那...北省不那麼聰明啦北省就簡單就好 看得到就好大大隻 台灣豬很清楚那我們經貿辦談判一定要捍衛這個我們的糧食一定要保護我剛剛講那個家灶走廊那個就是完全沒有生產力"},{"start":10016.65,"end":10044.222,"text":"它是200多平方公里上面住了200多萬人然後所有的一點一滴都是從外面輸進來你知道一天只有貨櫃車幾千台貨櫃車從西奈半島這邊上去然後以色列要過不過的要進不進的每一個人的飲用水都不到20公升然後他的糧食能夠拿到的人不到30%"},{"start":10046.124,"end":10072.295,"text":"要就是要讓那些人都死死的讓那些人都遷就讓那些人移民 捐贈族人 以色列永久佔領是不是這樣 我不知道但是看那個樣子是這樣就硬幹所以 打仗封鎖是非常非常的殘酷我們如果現在你都零關稅全部的米 米糕米都一百米糕什麼東西都一百台灣整個農業都崩盤"},{"start":10074.332,"end":10094.031,"text":"我們真的被封鎖的時候,真的打仗的時候,我們是死的我們的人口數是袈裟走廊的十二倍所以這個經貿辦你們要以國家的,日本有些人很硬啊日本講到農業,他們聽就不要聽啦,他就自己拚所以你看你們的立場,這個很重要"},{"start":10095.044,"end":10113.193,"text":"跟委員報告我想不論是我們現在跟美國之間是出超關係或入超關係我們一定都是據理理真更何況我們現在農產品對美國來說完全是對他來說是一個順差的這個情況之下所以我覺得這個是第一個我們會跟美國去訴求我們跟他"},{"start":10113.693,"end":10143.173,"text":"在很多的領域上面都是戰略夥伴的關係所以這是第一個我們一定會努力的去爭取第二個我想對於農產或農業它絕對不是一個單純的市場開放的問題所以我們還會兼顧到產業發展以及您剛才提到的這些糧食安全國人的健康這個絕對會是我們在通盤考量而且特別是我們會跟我們的農業主管機關討論之後才來決定我們的接下來要跟美國去進行談判的策略"},{"start":10144.537,"end":10156.973,"text":"我們爆米的收購價格是26塊每公斤我們在立法院搞到要31塊結果法案通過還沒有實施所以要調2塊錢"},{"start":10158.946,"end":10187.241,"text":"這是一樣的意思,我們的黃豆我們生產成本一公斤,可能是多少錢美國的黃豆可能是十塊而已,因為大規模的所以如果我們都沒有保護的話我們一定是崩盤啦,崩盤好,然後我再問農業部你的牛肉,台灣的牛肉自產的"},{"start":10188.143,"end":10193.945,"text":"差不多幾% 整年多少萬噸我們自己對消費市場佔有率差不多5%到6%牛肉嘛 國產牛肉那這些牛肉都是企業或是衛土牛打起來的都有"},{"start":10204.926,"end":10220.432,"text":"都有啦我那麼深入的我幾乎每個禮拜都在跟那些乳牛業者在因為為了那個紐西蘭的牛FTA簽完他們的一公升才40塊的成本我們這邊要7、80、80、90這個市府都趕快叫"},{"start":10226.576,"end":10240.267,"text":"那我們的牛肉我們自己才供應5、6%所以從國外進口的我們是沒有話講那我們的豬肉我們養了700一年才要產750萬頭豬肉差不多180天就一起那應該是要產到八九百萬頭才對啊怎麼會只有750萬頭"},{"start":10251.121,"end":10265.564,"text":"沒有啦,一方面就是因為我們的整個飼養環境當然也是有成本的可能,第二就是因為我們現在其實三龍提供我們國內90%都是我們自己的國產豬肉,國人對那個風味其實也是非常敏感,所以"},{"start":10266.805,"end":10277.011,"text":"臺灣的豬肉在我們的市場其實選擇性我們的消費者比較喜歡所以臺灣的豬肉是有競爭性國人還是喜歡吃目前看起來是這樣進口的就是11萬噸美國差不多占8%總共一成左右"},{"start":10286.596,"end":10301.193,"text":"好,我是希望一定要堅持啦,今天排這個題目就是一定要捍衛住,尤其是談判的人齁,這個不要穿著西裝,帝母啊,出去跟他們談判,談到未來回來再扛扛"},{"start":10303.584,"end":10326.832,"text":"再說下去就難聽了,所以這個我是非常concern這一塊,每天會頂,因為我們家就做實的,我們家就在做虛弱的,我們的錢都在累虛的,我們有可能說沒主意沒主意就用這個,而且是以農立國,農業為本,民以食為天,你這個農業要崩盤,你這個國家就...結束啊,好謝謝"},{"start":10333.533,"end":10337.715,"text":"好 謝謝蘇清泉委員 接下來請圖權吉委員好 謝謝主席 那請我們邱部長還有我們江署長"},{"start":10363.978,"end":10364.331,"text":"非常好"},{"start":10368.496,"end":10395.039,"text":"好 部長署長那針對我們2021年開放美豬進口以來其實我國開始對於我們食品安全還有農民的權益這個時候也受到廣泛的關注那最近因為美國要加徵台灣對等32%對等關稅雖然已經暫緩90天可是我們還是有10%的基本關稅那美國的貿易代表署"},{"start":10397.12,"end":10424.252,"text":"3月31號那時候有公布2025年對外貿易障礙的評估報告那時候有指出台灣針對美豬的標示以及美牛進口這些貿易障礙非貿易障礙針對這些非貿易障礙他們認為說需要讓步那部長認為我們這次食安的問題會不會成為我們台美貿易談判的籌碼"},{"start":10426.345,"end":10445.922,"text":"謝謝委員,我還是要重申,對守護死安、守護人民的健康,這是我們衛福部,我相信也是政府最重要的一個目標。那至於說,川普那邊美國所列出來的一些事件,當然我們都要做好準備。"},{"start":10447.484,"end":10455.471,"text":"這樣才能夠應用未來的各種變局那我想政府是一體的所以我們各個部門當然提供他的專業的一個"},{"start":10458.431,"end":10482.283,"text":"科學的分析以及他的論述做最好的準備但是這都必須要守護食安讓我們台灣的人民在食方面是最安心那也在健康方面可以說是得到最好的照顧我想這個部分是我們大家一起在努力所以針對我們這次台美貿易談判的籌碼食安問題部長應該會"},{"start":10484.724,"end":10501.552,"text":"堅守為我們國人的食安健康來堅守這個底線吧我們一定堅守食安最優先然後我們會提供因為我們畢竟是專業屬於專業的部門所以我們會提供相關的議題的科學的分析好那針對我們一些數據的統計台灣在"},{"start":10506.411,"end":10533.169,"text":"每年平均豬肉的消耗量在亞洲來講僅次於香港那我們針對來季的殘留容許量我們也訂定高標準那剛剛部長也有講我們也希望守護國人的健康安全那針對我們食藥署署長是不是也跟部長一樣針對殘留容許量的標準我們是不是一樣不會有讓步"},{"start":10536.466,"end":10549.761,"text":"謝謝委員的提問針對提到豬肉裡面的每個可食用部位的檢驗的標準產業標準的部分萊克多巴胺這部分屬於動物用藥"},{"start":10551.142,"end":10575.378,"text":"動物用藥的評估其實我們在跨部會裡面的協作之下對於動物用藥的檢驗其實都是會有科學方法做檢驗檢驗出來之後在最後的殘餘定的標準的時候是配合著國人的所謂的飲食習慣跟國人的營養調查會把所有的攝食量加殘餘會定出我們所謂的每日的攝食的一個標準"},{"start":10576.218,"end":10600.079,"text":"這個設施的標準呢是用國際的標準在進行評估的這個是非常非常重要的一件事實那也符合國人在飲食習慣的特殊性所以定的有跟國際的有一些些差異那這個部分呢其實我們會堅持我們對於科學評估以及我們的特殊性會有機會呢好好來把我們特殊性做一些表述"},{"start":10600.359,"end":10623.051,"text":"所以我們今天提出來最主要目的就是我們針對美豬的標示還有帳類殘留標準還有美國牛絞肉牛油等我們希望還是依照現行的標準尤其那個豬肉來源的標示我們也希望能夠要維持因為我們希望雖然這個去談判"},{"start":10624.554,"end":10643.147,"text":"加大進口但是我們針對這食安問題的標準我們應該是寸步不讓那尤其我們主管國人健康的衛福部還有我們邊境食品跟市場查驗的食藥署這部分部長跟署長剛剛講的是不是能夠捍衛我們國人健康針對食安問題這個標準是不是把這個標準底線能夠來幫我們來捍衛"},{"start":10652.979,"end":10658.028,"text":"我想我們一定在國人食安的最重要的堅持之下"},{"start":10663.82,"end":10691.164,"text":"當然我們對任何的食品我們一定去做好風險的一個科學的一個分析定定安全跟合理的一個規範這個要是合乎而且要根據我們國人科學的實證跟國人膳食的一個習慣做好沒關係 部長我們今天提出來最主要的目的因為你一直講都是重複在講我是希望我們今天提出來我們"},{"start":10692.124,"end":10716.982,"text":"當然我們談判有這個籌碼但是我們認為加大進口之外我們希望這個食安問題的標準要為了我們國人的健康我們要來捍衛還有我們針對食藥署的部分那時候我們加大進口之後勢必我們食藥署有沒有規劃要提升邊境跟市場的查驗這部分有沒有規劃"},{"start":10720.836,"end":10745.685,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們特別感謝的在今年度三月份的時候對於邊境的查查的人力在人事總長的親自去到我們的北區管然後去視察之後給我們增加人力從原來72個人力的部分往上能夠提升到33個人力目前我們持續在配置增加這個查查的量"},{"start":10747.205,"end":10769.251,"text":"那能的部分其實特別跟委員報告一下我們使用的所謂BPIBorder Protection Intelligence用人工智慧導入我們邊境查查會更精準的查查這是我們持續在做也有一些想像的成果我們是希望我們未雨綢繆因為你將來勢必如果加大進口"},{"start":10771.033,"end":10782.907,"text":"針對這個邊境跟市場的查驗勢必一定要增加驗的量變大了還有我們之前有沒有發生過美豬混合其他國家的豬肉來販售去規避這個美豬標示產地的這個問題之前沒有發生過"},{"start":10788.939,"end":10807.886,"text":"報告委員這邊我們對於所有的豬肉的標示呢其實不只是美國來的西班牙來的澳洲來的任何一個國家的標示產地的標示都是一體適用的國內的也是有所以有台灣豬標示等等那對於這個標示的議題下有沒有標示的不清楚的"},{"start":10808.246,"end":10831.844,"text":"我們有也有採取過相關的一個個案是屬於標示不清而且標示不清的部分呢也讓我們的邊境跟區管跟地方的衛生局共同協作那我們最針對這個標示的部分我們就持續的一個加強好我們希望這部分要注意因為勢必將來萬一這個廉價的美豬進口之後我們擔心這種曾經發生過的這個案例類似情形我們怕會"},{"start":10836.935,"end":10864.959,"text":"會更嚴重謝謝委員那因為現在美國的豬肉各國豬肉我們其實是採取他們自由貿易進口的部分我們就加強在邊境的一個查查跟後市場端跟補充一點點報告我們查查到110年開始每年我們都查查到目前為止呢我們查查結果呢大概是今年1月份114年查查大概是6597件都沒有不符合規定的"},{"start":10865.419,"end":10889.79,"text":"那另外呢110年到114年我們總共查了29萬7千多件有111件是不符合規格規定的是標示的其中19件為美豬的產品因此可以看到其實不是標準只有美豬的標示我們所有的標示我們都會一併的查查好因為這曾經發生過啦我們擔心萬一加大進口這個問題會更嚴重好那謝謝部長署長那我請問一下那個請教農業部"},{"start":10894.196,"end":10894.54,"text":"好 請問農業部次長"},{"start":10901.747,"end":10923.316,"text":"是委員好好次長那勢必要將來我們如果在談判之後加大對美豬牛的進口那我們擔心了這個對於農業是不是一定會有所衝擊尤其這些養豬啊養牛這些的業者好這些農民是不是會有對他有很大的衝擊沒有評估過嗎"},{"start":10924.977,"end":10944.887,"text":"應該這樣說啦 其實台灣的養豬產業對我們農業是重要的因為每年產值有800多億 這是第一點那第二點 目前我們國人食用豬肉大概有90%都是我們國產的所以養豬產業是很重要 它對國人的消費國人喜歡我們自己的台灣豬肉 這一點是重要的"},{"start":10945.407,"end":10966.596,"text":"那至於其他進口的因為大概我推測這些進口的豬肉其實能夠直接上到我們市場的部分相對應該是走加工比較多因為台灣豬肉的風味相對好所以其實我們包括國人去消費去購買包括我自己上市場買我覺得優先一定選我們自己台灣的國產豬肉"},{"start":10969.082,"end":10982.568,"text":"對啊那我們現在是擔心說因為勢必喔將來這個豬肉如果進口加大之後那我們擔心說這個產地標示不清沒有標示的話勢必會影響衝擊到我們台灣國產的豬"},{"start":10985.885,"end":11007.934,"text":"那這一部分是不是產地這一部分我們這個標示的部分一定也要幫忙捍衛除了做區別之外其實對於農業部來講其實我們對我們自己的養豬產業怎麼讓它能夠第一個是在整個經營上面的更有效率因為其實產業是要永續的所以怎麼讓它降低成本這個才有競爭力第二個是我們養豬產業對我們的社會責任怎麼讓這個循環來做"},{"start":11013.116,"end":11039.201,"text":"對環境的污染也好對養豬的成本降低也好這樣才有競爭力所以讓我們自己有競爭力我們對其他國家我們就能夠站得更穩因為我的選區有很多都是養豬衛生的農民那我們現在也很多農民在緊張就是針對這關稅問題對於美國我們勢必有可能會加大開放美豬進口那是不是我們農業部針對"},{"start":11041.541,"end":11057.528,"text":"這一部分在我們很多有養豬的這些地區能夠來辦理這個說明會來解除我們農民的疑慮甚至如果將來開放之後有沒有一些相關的補助辦法能夠跟他們說明一下"},{"start":11058.948,"end":11079.081,"text":"其實我們等到開放 我們現在對我們的養豬產業 本來就有很多支持措施所以謝謝委員給我們這個機會 不管是委員辦座談 我們做晚禮去 還是我們辦座談 我們邀請委員來我們對整個養豬產業的措施 不是只有以後才要做 是現在就在做那相關的一些 我們都很樂意跟你們溝通說明"},{"start":11079.381,"end":11103.603,"text":"那針對這部分可能本席到時候在我們地方委員召開這個說明會因為一方面釐清我們這些農民他們的疑慮甚至我也希望想了解一下我們農業部針對這些有沒有超前部署有一些規劃一些補助的配套措施能夠讓他們知道說我們農業部在這部分已經有注意到我們很樂意去說明謝謝謝謝市長"},{"start":11108.444,"end":11120.492,"text":"好 謝謝圖委員 謝謝次長來 接著我們請邱正軍委員質詢好 謝謝主席我們請我們邱部長委員好 部長好"},{"start":11131.397,"end":11160.94,"text":"部長我想請教一下我們醫師法第四之一條的修法被大家認為是一個落日條款感覺有一點是來放水用的你們為了四之一的修法也修了醫師的實行細則最近這個也送進來被查了我記得你說過這是醫師法實行細提高到法律的位階是20年來最嚴格的規定對吧"},{"start":11165.485,"end":11171.258,"text":"這個在幾年前我記得我擔任立委的時候就把一個細則"},{"start":11173.38,"end":11195.756,"text":"變成法治化就法律的慰藉法治是這樣子而已啊對啦 實際層面來說其實它的內容都一樣啦是真的加嚴啦這對於患者來說是第一層的把關這個我們當然支持但是部長你說的沒錯確實是提到這個法律的慰藉只是在實際層面上這個修法把學歷採認證原則採認原則放鬆之後"},{"start":11200.699,"end":11215.47,"text":"再加到實行細則裡面部長說的這是最嚴格的規定但看起來沒有我記得你當時說過這個有意見是可以討論跟修改那我先來請教部長幾個問題就以前一次用106年定的學歷採論原則來決定能不能考醫師執照的國考對不對"},{"start":11222.267,"end":11225.555,"text":"就說106年訂的學歷採認的原則來決定能不能考醫師執照的國考對不對"},{"start":11232.538,"end":11252.651,"text":"當然這有一連串的一個偵審的一個過程吧這個學歷採認證採認原則是說學士後的醫學系然後醫學系學士後的中醫學系中醫學系學士後的牙醫學系跟牙醫學系畢業學校必須符合教育部已列入的參考名冊"},{"start":11254.011,"end":11270.434,"text":"那新的公布的版本多了當地國政府學校權責機關或認定之教育專業評鑑團體所任何的也算這是把篩選的學校的權利都放棄了直接交給國外嘛"},{"start":11271.872,"end":11285.874,"text":"跟委員報告一下我想我們從在修正這個相關的法案然後後來施行細則絕對是真的他的心情絕對是嚴格把關"},{"start":11287.256,"end":11312.446,"text":"那個我也不管是在立委的時候或者是在可是我們看不出來當地當地國的政府學校他的修改都是有他的原因我等一下再請那個那個可能醫事室來跟我們報告我先講一個一定是有如果有這個都有做非常非常詳細的溝通但是絕對我也不容許"},{"start":11313.855,"end":11341.625,"text":"讓他更更更對因為當地國政府的這個權責機關跟教育評鑑團體我們搞不懂因為我們看不懂它是什麼東西因為在制定的過程當中我們也了解那個是說有的有的國家是那個是由政府跟團體當然是一定是政府認定的團體才承認所以在後來在記者裡面他還有一個教育評鑑團體是指什麼"},{"start":11347.41,"end":11361.539,"text":"教育評鑑團體認可他也可以啊我想這個團體絕對是非常非常嚴格我要講的是說有沒有比我們教育部列入的參考名冊更加嚴格這個詳細的規劃是在哪裡"},{"start":11365.27,"end":11387.562,"text":"那個意思是要不要回答一下跟委員報告就是說我們過去都是只是針對某個大學或某個學校的機制他送審但是我們現在是由你就地自己主管機關已經平監過審核過的機制而且進公開的機制裡面所以會比過去以來更那比我們自己的嚴格嗎你認為如果他的國家"},{"start":11390.384,"end":11407.729,"text":"這個部分管得比較鬆的時候你認為這樣是好的嗎就是他必須是已經審核結果誰審核嘛他們當地對啊所以這個就有爭議了你懂我意思嗎現在既然是為我們國人看病不是由他們來定標準應該是我們來定標準才對吧"},{"start":11409.817,"end":11423.901,"text":"那在我裡面有一個在不採這個認證學歷部分就是說遠距教學本來是不行的但新修訂的這個特別加上去特殊條件下可以採認那這部分有包含這個臨床實驗嗎"},{"start":11428.758,"end":11450.959,"text":"實作都是一定在實體不會有遠距的不可能有嘛對不對好那你們這個我覺得你們要寫清楚啦用學歷採認證的時候要經過一般這個常態招生或入學管道才可以承認學歷你修完之後變成有公開招生就可以了那不就是讓國際專班的這個部分就就地合法了嗎"},{"start":11451.906,"end":11477.436,"text":"因為他所謂的公開是說你有公開比喻是說聯招或是公開在那個收入學生不是透過某一些特殊機制在收取學生的這個好啦我這樣建議啦就是你們應該把106年的學歷採認證原則一模一樣的放到這個施行細則裡面這樣才有真正提升法律慰藉的效果因為講得不清不楚很讓很多人看不懂部長你覺得勒"},{"start":11479.086,"end":11502.015,"text":"我謝謝委員的關心我必須要再重申一次像這樣的一個討論已經經過非常詳盡連行政院長都主持這樣的一個相關的一個有些團體嘛他關心另外如果真的有因為這樣子而放鬆的話我們都很願意來做處理來做檢討沒有問題"},{"start":11506.757,"end":11518.921,"text":"另外我請教部長,醫師法裡面有提到很多次的外國學歷、外國醫事人員。外國人這個詞彙在中華民國的現行法律裡面,這些外國有包含中國大陸嗎?我們目前沒有承認中國大陸的學籍。"},{"start":11528.544,"end":11552.593,"text":"對嘛因為一個中國大陸醫師想要來台灣執業在實務上會依兩岸人民關係條例來先處理身份跟資格的問題嘛對不對因為兩岸人民關係條例它是特別法它應該是會優先的我們的一般的法律我們現在訂的這些規範它只是一般法律所以我們會優先用兩岸人民關係條例來處理是的對嘛"},{"start":11557.435,"end":11566.16,"text":"所以如果說要開放大陸地區醫生來台灣我們的法律條文裡面就必須寫到大陸地區的醫師而不是外國醫生對吧他不是外國醫生嗎是應該會寫到大陸地區的醫生是這樣嗎理論上是這樣"},{"start":11579.41,"end":11598.591,"text":"應該是依照兩岸人民關係條例的名字所以謝謝部長因為之前我們也聽到說我們要開放大陸的中國醫生來台灣造謠的事情謝謝部長也認證這些立委他好像都不太懂中華民國的法律我們在這邊謝謝部長的澄清"},{"start":11601.894,"end":11629.235,"text":"另外我再請教就是食安的部分我們現在行政院經貿談判辦公室嚴副總談判代表你們今天的這份報告我真的看不出來你們在談判的前中後要怎麼保障我們國人的食品安全跟農民的權益就食安的角度來講談判的時候你們會自己降低食安的標準去配合美國嗎"},{"start":11632.37,"end":11657.263,"text":"報告委員我想我們是有分工的啦雖然我們是政府是一體團隊也是一體的大家齊心協力那在食安這個專業的一個科學的分析那會是由我們衛福部這邊來做琢磨那我想在辦公室那邊談判辦公室那邊你沒有提到啦應該是在談判的技術然後蒐集大家的意見"},{"start":11658.963,"end":11685.456,"text":"來維護國家最大的權益這樣子對啊 因為我不希望我們以國人的健康來做籌碼來變成配合美國的演出雖然美國有提到說我們台灣檢測萊克多巴胺殘留辦法跟捷克認可方法不一致我們台灣標準是比較嚴格的那當然美國是希望我們用寬鬆的標準來認定台灣辦公室的看法呢"},{"start":11688.507,"end":11710.003,"text":"先請署長回應一些報告委員因為簽署萊克多安的檢驗的部分那個是檢驗是非常非常科學的科學的檢驗的過程當中那個標準的部分因為檢驗的科學的時候他檢驗的方式呢JEC法其實有公開公告的相關的一個標準那其實國際可以認證的那我們"},{"start":11710.963,"end":11735.912,"text":"食藥署這邊的我們的研檢組裡面對於開發這些方法以及執行的部分都沒有問題我們都準備好我今天提這個雖然還沒談啦我只是希望說政府能夠站在人民的健康的這個立場來去幫我們人民做把關另外當然農民的衝擊可能也要考慮到我們農業部那個我們次長有來嘛那我們也是希望我有聽到說之前有講零關稅這個部分嘛次長"},{"start":11749.674,"end":11757.518,"text":"我們之前有聽到說我們關稅要從零開始談那是一個原則但是不是所有都談到零"},{"start":11758.502,"end":11778.07,"text":"所以農業部的看法農業部一定跟農民站在一起維護我們國家農業的安全所以不會領我希望你要考量我們農民的生計農業部覺得跟農民站在一起我們蘇昭偉剛剛也有提過好幾個委員都有提到大家都非常擔心就是說我們一定要保護我們自己農業的發展還有我們的農民的權益那經貿辦這邊呢"},{"start":11784.256,"end":11793.193,"text":"我想針對這些農產品的議題絕對不是只有開放的問題所以我們一定會尊重我們的組成機關的意見然後以我們的國人跟農產的發展為優先"},{"start":11796.383,"end":11805.168,"text":"所以你們一定要站好你的角度好不好站好你的立場好好幫我們的國人幫我們的農民好不好希望你們把這件事放在心上謝謝部長謝謝主席我們請部長"},{"start":11827.901,"end":11851.63,"text":"委員好部長我想請教因為今天非常大的一個新聞就是衛福部在推動醫療服務國際化轉型推動計畫那從2022年開始到現在我不知道說到底成效是怎樣那我們看到今天的這一則新聞我一看到之後我就覺得非常的訝異就是說這個"},{"start":11856.395,"end":11868.902,"text":"這個魔法牙醫診所從這個2022年到2023年短短6個月就申請600多件就是這個從國外的民眾然後到台灣來就醫"},{"start":11870.543,"end":11880.955,"text":"那後面發生這個問題是移民署這邊這個發現的啦那我想請教就是說衛福部這邊針對這個計畫從一開始到現在"},{"start":11887.282,"end":11914.545,"text":"到底有幾個這個醫療就是醫療院所有申請再來說你們衛福部自己本身有發現這樣的一個問題到底是有幾家或者是你們完全都沒有發現然後是內政部移民署發現說這個從國外進來從中國進來的這個要來就醫的人這麼多而且這麼密集然後才自己移民署自己調查那你們完全都不知道嗎"},{"start":11915.489,"end":11943.526,"text":"好,雖然的關心,那個本來這個是一個好意啦,一個人道的一個主意嘛,能夠必須要來台灣這麼優秀的醫療來如果能夠幫助,當然也是因為這樣子所以有開放,原來是衛福部來主政,後來在111年,剛剛你也提到嘛,就委託"},{"start":11945.054,"end":11970.652,"text":"其實是私協來做可是你們不需要管理嗎我們提供當然要管理然後那邊是提供一個原則給移民署那邊應該去核定去核定是同意不同意應該不是MET是移民署合定所以移民署那邊會有統計表那他在5月的時候統計出來發現這個診所"},{"start":11974.423,"end":11994.822,"text":"牙醫診所從2022年12月到5月短短的6個月就申請了600多件所以在移民署的管理小組覺得有異就戳查所以當時有沒有通知你們在他們發現有異常的時候有沒有通知你們"},{"start":11995.578,"end":12023.413,"text":"會啊 所以你們那時候是做什麼樣的處置我們5月17號就馬上暫停該診所的資格所以5月是2023年的5月2023年的5月 對一發現就停止他們在申請國外的資格到現在都沒有恢復好 那我想請教除了這一家魔法牙醫診所之外那還有其他的醫療院所有類似這樣的一個狀況嗎"},{"start":12025.953,"end":12043.677,"text":"那當然以現況來講是非常足按去好好的審查我只想要問一下就是說除了這一家那還有沒有其他家有類似這樣的一個狀況所以你們都是被動的被告知的是不是這樣子"},{"start":12056.092,"end":12082.127,"text":"因為申請是向移民署申請,我們給他一個規範啦就是醫療上的規範是提供給移民署去審查那現在是主案審查所以你們也是被告知被移民署告知你們,你們才知道有這樣的一個事情你們也不會自己主動去查應該是移民署收集"},{"start":12083.817,"end":12109.949,"text":"申請 請醫事室回答跟委員報告目前就是衛福部裡面這邊只是說醫療機構有沒有資格可以去幫就是國外的民眾申請醫療簽證那醫療簽證可可就是說我們通過醫療機構可以幫他申請這樣的醫療簽證以後他們接下來的動作就是如果說有國際的病人需求的時候他們會在移民署的網站去登錄"},{"start":12111.83,"end":12139.279,"text":"說哪個病人要來需要醫療簽證然後他什麼時候會到大概什麼時候期間那所以說如果說移民署發現說這個可能有一點異常的數字的時候他到時候就會通知衛福部這邊可能去共同聯合去會勘跟那個瞭解好那我要問部長除了這一家魔法牙醫診所之外那移民署這邊還有沒有告知你們還有其他的醫療院所有類似的這樣一個狀況"},{"start":12141.091,"end":12155.169,"text":"這幾年當中就是針對異常的部分大概是有一家是醫院有一家是另外一家診所所以到目前為止就只有三家有有類似的這樣有異常有類似這樣的一個狀況其他都還好"},{"start":12156.05,"end":12175.292,"text":"是確定是這樣子嗎我們目前醫療可以做醫療簽證的只有規定是28類的疾病才可以幫那個醫療機構可以幫病人簽那個醫療簽證所以目前就是已在這28個可是我們看到這個魔法牙醫診所他只是純粹牙齒的洗牙或者是美白這個也"},{"start":12176.753,"end":12201.17,"text":"跟委員報告不好意思就是說當初我們在28類裡面其中因為這個案件我們就是會同那個口腔師跟營醫師有重新修正這個類別更嚴謹的疾病類別裡面把它寫得更清楚所以有重新來公告這一項的牙科關於口腔的疾病別是屬於更急性而且是比較嚴重的程度之下的他才可以做這樣的醫療簽證"},{"start":12202.851,"end":12225.79,"text":"我今天看到這則新聞我真的是嚇一跳就是說當然是剛剛部長講的就是說這個台灣的這個醫療服務品質應該在國際上應該是數一數二的大家公認是非常好的那如果說我們在推動這個醫療服務國際化轉型推動計畫如果會有這樣的一個疑慮或者是會有國安上的問題"},{"start":12227.791,"end":12249.499,"text":"真的我看到這個就是說短短時間來了這個六七百人那這六七百人在這個診所上面也完全沒有病例或者病例完全是空白那怎麼可能會讓他有這樣的一個機會然後未來還讓他有這個機會再引進其他或是再繼續做這樣的一個服務所以我"},{"start":12251.379,"end":12272.333,"text":"這邊我是希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分未來你們要怎麼去預防或者是你們要怎麼去管理而不是這個變得完全你根本不知道他到底有沒有來做醫療好完全不知道然後病例也沒有對啊那你們怎麼可以忍受這樣子的一個你們原本是一個好意然後後來是變質的"},{"start":12274.465,"end":12295.819,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們每年都會不定期會同那個移民署還有那個陸委會共同去跟衛福部共同聯合一個稽查的機制去不定期去抽目前大概有一百二十九家的會員機構所以我們這個有從事這個計畫的我們會不定期的去做聯合的稽查"},{"start":12296.715,"end":12310.573,"text":"去抽查從此抽查病例跟現場去了解說他當初這樣的你們是現在才開始在已經在這個至少已經執行了五六年了執行五六年那是最近才有這樣子的一個狀況出現嗎"},{"start":12311.755,"end":12329.13,"text":"因為這個案子其實因為移民署他那邊現在都是用資訊化去做登錄他只要是數字異常的他就會跳出來做警示所以這部分的話我們就更特別去我希望就是說這個不要變成一個國安的一個漏洞真的真的部長"},{"start":12330.09,"end":12347.377,"text":"是不是未來這個部分你們要怎麼去做管理雖然是一兩間診所但是我們認為非常嚴重絕對不允許有這樣情況我想我們除了希望依法原辦以外當然我們一定加緊把所有的整個流程"},{"start":12348.004,"end":12372.51,"text":"在做最緊密主動而不是被動的讓告知主動的去...我是認為你們應該自己也要做一個全面的清查有一個聯合小組那我覺得這個應該要發揮更多的對 如果說你們這樣子一個機制已經做了五六年然後你們自己本身沒有發現然後還要靠移民署通知你們的話我認為你們應該要做一個全面的清查"},{"start":12374.222,"end":12387.779,"text":"這個我想我也非常重視這個所以那個一定嚴格來執行他每一個環節讓他真的有需要的人得到照顧照顧以後"},{"start":12389.481,"end":12403.489,"text":"就回去 這個一個一個都要盯得很緊這樣子而且不能許有內造的事實這個我想都要嚴格辦理所以我希望真的部長你今天講的真的說到要做到"},{"start":12404.369,"end":12427.91,"text":"我們是完全不能忍受你竟然來然後你是沒有從事醫療沒有什麼醫療的行為然後這個診所完全也都沒有病例或者是這個病例捏造整個文書記錄全部都捏造那你怎麼可以接受這樣的診所繼續做這樣的事情或者是醫院甚至是醫院我都覺得很壓抑"},{"start":12428.49,"end":12453.801,"text":"不管是鎮守或醫院我們一定取消他的資格而且是知名的醫院那你可以忍受這樣子嗎不能忍受可以提供服務的醫院很多啦如果有違規的我們一定嚴格辦理所以我覺得你應該是全面要趕快去做一個清查不要再有這樣的事情發生我們一定"},{"start":12455.722,"end":12477.179,"text":"人家檢討去把他鎖這個罪行好另外這個再給我兩分鐘的時間我問一下就是說我們一直在推動這個健康台灣那台灣的目前三高變成是國人死亡的非常重要的一個這個原因那在這個"},{"start":12479.24,"end":12494.03,"text":"這個我們整個死亡人數差不多有三成都因為山高的這個原因那我想請教部長就是未來我們衛福部針對這個高血壓高血糖高血脂這樣山高那你防治的目標是什麼那"},{"start":12495.371,"end":12515.572,"text":"有什麼樣的方式可以降低這樣的一個三高的發生那另外就是說我們在推動這個健康存摺我發現一般民眾在使用這個健康存摺可能也可能也很少人在使用這個那是不是有可能跟這個外送平台因為國人"},{"start":12516.693,"end":12519.136,"text":"外食的這個機會真的非常的多那有沒有可能也跟這個外送平台做一個結合就是說你透過外送平台然後你在點餐的時候你在最近這幾天你使用的這個高油高糖"},{"start":12537.557,"end":12559.843,"text":"這樣的類似這樣的一個食物使用了幾次那會影響健康我覺得是不是請部長你可以講一下未來怎樣去降低這個這個三高的這個部分那未來我們怎麼樣透過我們的AI的方式然後讓民眾可以更加的知道自己目前的這個健康狀況"},{"start":12561.251,"end":12582.736,"text":"謝謝委員這是非常重要的一件事情其實它牽涉的蠻廣的我們第一個當然怎麼樣讓他生活習慣好一點這是第一個階段這個部分其實在我們的健康存摺裡面就有相關的一個指導那當然等一下可以由健保署來講健康存摺使用的人有多少"},{"start":12586.985,"end":12605.956,"text":"用過的人非常多但是是不是大家都熟悉去使用習慣去使用那當然又是另外一個問題第二個就是說我們在三高剛剛您提到三高是嚴重的問題所以我們譬如說我們在成人健檢部分我們就把降了10歲"},{"start":12606.937,"end":12626.902,"text":"所以是健康台灣非常重要的一點,因為常常到三十幾歲其實就開始有一些其實是可逆性的一些症狀那只要生活習慣改變,他的調整好,睡覺睡好一點,運動好一點,他的紅字就變成"},{"start":12627.842,"end":12638.555,"text":"黑字了啦所以真的很感謝委員關心這一點那這個部分我們在健康台灣的確增加了很多經費在做這個部分發現了更少發現了這些問題來處理"},{"start":12641.621,"end":12668.868,"text":"那至於說還有另外就是怎麼樣把所有檢查出來的data數據能夠匯集這也是未來這也是行政院在大概一個禮拜一兩個禮拜前在宴會裡面特別討論這個議題那我們希望各部門尤其是勞動部他有很多的勞工健檢的部分能夠我們有一個平台把它通通匯集起來那這樣就會來整個來了解來共同來推動"},{"start":12669.708,"end":12680.601,"text":"它避免傷高那至於說跟外送平台這個部分如果我們這個平台成熟以後我們當然也願意來瞭解來配合來大家增強這個照顧的實力好 我們希望就是說在"},{"start":12685.126,"end":12709.631,"text":"那個部長這邊真的努力來推動健康台灣然後將我們國人的這個三高的這個部分能夠降低減少這個死亡率啦好不好謝謝委員的關心我也呼籲國人多使用我們現在健康村子的一個應該會有很大的幫助這樣子用呼籲的就不好啊 那個使用的人就是救啊對不對好"},{"start":12713.232,"end":12738.613,"text":"但是可能有上去,我不曉得施昭有沒有去看過自己的健康存摺所以今天我發現這陣子用覺得還蠻好用的所以請國人用,這個是我們花了很多精神建造出來的我們希望更多的資料進來的話,那可能有更"},{"start":12739.513,"end":12743.294,"text":"更多可以幫忙促進健康的事情謝謝委員的指導 謝謝"},{"start":12768.904,"end":12793.141,"text":"主席 我想說你沒有要叫人我們的行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表 顏惠欣還有經濟部的政務次長 姜文洛還有農業部的常務次長 杜文貞姜次長還有農業部的次長經濟部今天都沒有人叫"},{"start":12800.482,"end":12814.224,"text":"三位好2025年3月31號我們美國就已經公布了2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告去指控說台灣對豬肉牛肉馬鈴薯跟稻米跟基改食品設定貿易障礙"},{"start":12814.83,"end":12822.473,"text":"所以對此可能會對我們臺灣關稅懲罰作為一個理由可是至上邊的數據來看的話臺灣對美國的農產品的出口量事實上是相差20倍的貿易逆差"},{"start":12830.396,"end":12852.388,"text":"我們不但沒有在美國便宜還有可能事實上會接受到傾銷所以我不知道嚴代表還有我們的江次長這邊想問兩位為了糧食自給率攸關我們國內的安全各國對此有貿易限制美國台灣都有可是對這次美國的指控你們兩位的看法是什麼"},{"start":12854.738,"end":12874.096,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我首先說明一下我們談判代表辦公室的立場就是基本上我們當然會去考量這個議題是多面向的議題所以除了要去跟美國去談關稅的問題以外實際上我們也知道這些產業農產實際上還要考量到國人健康跟消費習慣為基本的前提"},{"start":12876.058,"end":12902.078,"text":"但是呢我們當然也同時要去思考到這些國際標準要做一些橫頻的思考所以基本上我們會綜合這些因素然後基本上我們會尊重我們的農業跟經濟的主政單位來做一個通盤的一個立場的確認好謝謝代表那江次長這邊是謝謝委員貿易逆差是美方關切的議題但是除了貿易逆差以外他還有提出來"},{"start":12902.677,"end":12921.349,"text":"像非關稅的障礙等等也都是美方關切的一體所以我們政府是一體的從各個層面去運營我們相關的立場以上好 謝謝次長那台灣的糧食自給率事實上是逐年下降到31.7%特別是核穀類的糧食的供給量"},{"start":12924.915,"end":12951.7,"text":"還不能滿足需求所以我們的稻米玉米大豆這種糧食的產量是不足的我們有進口的糧食調節存量的長期需求可是又不能放任我們的糧商被就是破壞價格之後傷害到糧農的利益所以想問我們的江次長跟我們的杜次長要購買糧食要調節供需需要保護糧農面對任何能夠提供"},{"start":12952.66,"end":12970.705,"text":"河谷类粮食的国家都应该保持欢迎的态度可是最怕的是就是被强迫倾销所以美国有强迫倾销的意图吗那政府怎么去因应这个问题谢谢委员关心因为其实粮食安全这件事情真的很重要特别是在台湾其实在美联"},{"start":12971.765,"end":12993.345,"text":"我們不管是河谷類的也好還有其他就是其實我們跟各國不是只有跟美國其實對於台灣以農業來講一定是台灣優先那但是糧食安全確實是要注意所以所以在整個我們對於這個橫頻的過程當中第一個一定是保障我們自己的台灣但是第二個安全的存量確實是一定還是要所以我剛剛有問說"},{"start":12995.407,"end":13024.14,"text":"最怕的是我們的強迫傾銷你覺得美國有這個意圖嗎應該這樣講其實我們也不是現在啦我們當初在加入WTO的時候其實也是面臨一樣很大的挑戰那但是我想為了台灣農業我們這樣的立場絕對還是要守住好那我續問喔就是說在不傷害本國稻米價格的前提下台灣每季還可以增加多少的稻米的進口量啊這個數字農業部有沒有預先做估算啊美國在這邊透露嗎"},{"start":13026.689,"end":13040.723,"text":"應該這樣說 我這樣做不是怕那個農其實對農民最大的幫助是確保他的收購價格 收入農是一回事 農有時候不是要多少多少有時候氣候的變化真的不太能夠如我們所預期的有那麼多收穫 但是"},{"start":13041.623,"end":13070.251,"text":"確保農民的收入的價格收購價格其實是重要的所以不是說我們要進口多少還是說我們可以準備多少而是說我們是雙重的標準在說第一個是確保農民收入一定要保障第二個我們的糧食純糧這塊也一定會守護所以我們當初在加入WTO的時候其實真的是那時候真的是很困難那我想我們經過那樣子的經歷之後怎麼守住台灣我們這塊其實我們是有很堅定的立場在做好那我們再來看豬肉這一塊"},{"start":13071.491,"end":13075.433,"text":"台灣2023年豬肉產值大於850億的新台幣國人平均消費量大概是36公斤 自給率大概88.5%2024年進口的豬肉內臟食品總值大概10萬公噸所以是出口的40倍那美國進口8041公噸 佔總數的7.85%"},{"start":13098.724,"end":13113.758,"text":"台灣豬肉沒有對美國出口所以想問一下2023年我們的豬瘟拔針今年有望為三大豬病肺疫區的國家可是台灣的豬肉的出口卻相當疲弱那這是什麼原因"},{"start":13116.625,"end":13132.797,"text":"其實我們對疾病的控制不是只當作要做出口的唯一的目的第一個是我們的養豬產業能夠把成本降低能夠永續這是我們不管是做疾病清除也好不管是做產業提升也好這是我們最大的目的"},{"start":13133.217,"end":13154.548,"text":"那第二個台灣其實整個養豬的成本老實講確實是有點高有點高所以我們的出口市場其實是鎖定是高端市場那我們的養豬產業確實是也真的是很爭氣不只把口蹄清除把非洲豬人守住現在豬人也拔針也要被認可所以我覺得我們當然是有競爭力但是不是為了出口而出口"},{"start":13155.68,"end":13184.279,"text":"那關於臺灣豬肉透過內銷跟出口來調節市場供需量的問題政府有沒有什麼策略應該是這樣講對我們來講其實臺灣這個養豬產業確實要守住所以怎麼降低成本怎麼讓它永續經營這是第一件我們的養豬產業其實也體認到市場不是為了提供豬肉其實是有社會責任這是一個文化那你2025年政府對於豬肉出口有沒有什麼計畫甚至臺灣豬肉出口量你預估可以達到多少的成長率"},{"start":13184.919,"end":13200.839,"text":"這其實要看我們整個產業的支持我們不是為了出口而出口而是當作第一個是產銷調節的一個方式第二個我們針對不同市場特別是一些高端市場我們去鎖定讓我們的養豬農民出口是有利潤的不是只為了出口而出口這樣"},{"start":13201.92,"end":13219.355,"text":"那一樣的再來談牛肉就是說我們台灣的牛肉需要大量仰賴進口所以因此牛肉進口不是政治問題而是供需的問題所以至於進口的條件就是法律問題食品安全衛生管理"},{"start":13220.275,"end":13241.621,"text":"就有規定10年內發生狂牛症的國家獲得是地區所產牛隻的頭骨、腦、眼睛、脊髓、絞肉、內臟都不得輸入所以一樣問我們的杜次長現今美國是不是已經脫離了狂牛症的疫情到10年之久合乎我們六大禁止項目進口的條件"},{"start":13244.192,"end":13271.559,"text":"應該這樣說其實在世界動物衛生組織對於牛海綿狀腦病就是我們所俗稱的狂牛病其實它的認定方式已經不是以有沒有發生病例來看而是看它的風險那目前是有三個等級一個是風險可忽略一個是風險已控制那另外就是風險未知那對美國現在在世界動物衛生組織被認可是風險可忽略所以事實上它現在可以到它被認定的風險是風險可忽略"},{"start":13274.949,"end":13288.519,"text":"嚴代表想問一下如果美國尚未達到食品安全管理法規定的條件台灣便是很難滿足美國全面開放的要求面對貿易跟法律的兩難政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":13289.921,"end":13306.842,"text":"首先要說明的就是剛剛有提到美國現在被世界動物衛生組織所認定它在這個狂流症上面是風險可忽略區那這個風險可忽略區就這個世界衛生組織它的認定實際上是它的所有的部位"},{"start":13307.583,"end":13326.203,"text":"全流林都是安全可食用的這是我們從國際組織所得到的訊息但是這個符不符合我們國人的食用習慣以及國人對這個概念的這個接受的程度我覺得這是由我們的衛福跟農政的主管機關接下來再去做進一步的專業上面的判斷跟評估"},{"start":13326.904,"end":13339.033,"text":"那我想我們OTN就是經貿辦就是提供我們的農政跟衛福主管機關最這個堅強的後盾來然後確保我們國人的健康之下來做我們談判的立場好"},{"start":13340.441,"end":13359.698,"text":"台灣有一套合格的農產品肉品的標示系統那建制這套系統的目的不是為了排斥美國的肉品是為了保障台灣消費者的知情權所以台灣豬農並不擔心任何國家進口肉品的競爭反而更在意的是進口肉品有沒有混雜"},{"start":13361.019,"end":13380.713,"text":"混充在臺灣豬肉流入市場這個事實上是長期不要關心的因此弱食食品標章事實上是消費者跟豬農的共同期待那消息會去年中旬的也有調查有6.5%的商品或店家沒有依規定標示並且肉品流向不明所以想問我們的言代表"},{"start":13381.995,"end":13391.969,"text":"臺灣農產品肉品標章行之有年是一項具有社會高度共識的制度面對美方認為標章會造成貿易障礙的誤解政府現在應對的態度是什麼"},{"start":13395.567,"end":13415.9,"text":"針對標章這個問題這樣更具體而言我想就是他有表示是原產地的標示以及國內標章的問題原產地的標示這是各國都有這個權利去要求還要確保他的進口來源因為他還有關稅上面的適用問題所以標示原產地這個是各國都該都擁有的權利"},{"start":13416.638,"end":13435.201,"text":"第二個呢針對說國內的這些食品標章的這件事情我想對台灣來說我們只要確保它是一體適用的一個做法那讓消費者有知的權利可以做在購買的時候做適當的選擇這個都是WTO國際規範上面容許各國可以做的事情"},{"start":13435.486,"end":13461.212,"text":"好 農業部這邊想問說 民間有政府提供系統供民眾查詢熱品流向的訴求就是不管經營部 農業部 大家的看法是什麼我想提供讓我們的消費者有能夠查詢 有知道來源的這個基本的資訊 我想應該是全民都希望的 包括我自己也是消費者好 經營部這邊"},{"start":13464.113,"end":13491.288,"text":"報告委員就如同前面一位杜次長說我們都是消費者所以我們都應該有吃的權利所以我覺得台美經貿要穩健發展所以我們希望農產品跟肉品有關國家應該適度保護可是台灣豬肉不怕競爭要爭取外銷所以希望農業部要加油那台灣牛肉進口的品項不是政治議題要符合法還是要符合法規食品標章我們還是希望能夠落實以上謝謝"},{"start":13493.916,"end":13494.216,"text":"謝謝林委員、謝謝部長"},{"start":13522.582,"end":13536.388,"text":"來,謝謝召委一行部長。劉少偉好。部長好,部長辛苦了。部長昨天食藥署查國防生計有查出什麼嗎?"},{"start":13540.389,"end":13555.916,"text":"這個畢竟是去年七月份的事情嘛,如果現在還能夠讓你們炒出什麼東西,那就是真的FDA加FBI。現在回過頭來,為什麼去年七月發生的事情,國光生技場內發生這麼嚴重的問題,不用進行通報?"},{"start":13561.018,"end":13581.256,"text":"然後你知道國防生技在講什麼嗎老鼠釋放在研發區研發區與生產區有明確的區隔不屬於藥品優良製作作業範圍GMP的所規範的範圍內因此不會影響到藥品品質請署長回應我兩個問題第一個查到什麼第二個國防生技這樣回應對嗎謝謝 謝謝委員我請署長"},{"start":13588.555,"end":13605.086,"text":"謝謝委員非常精準的提問有關於國光生技的部分呢第一個是我們昨天7點知道的消息昨天早上7點的時候立刻就在昨天就派人去國光生技做查核馬上我們就出發了"},{"start":13606.087,"end":13631.788,"text":"那對於為什麼在國光沒有立即去通報這件事情因為在GMP沒有涉及產品那國光他們是這麼樣子的解釋但是我們認為一樣GMP沒有涉及產品對他沒有涉及產品的部分所以他就說是沒有通報可是我們去的時候我們不是這樣子認為的因此我們有開出缺失這邊特別跟委員做進一步報告"},{"start":13632.849,"end":13661.399,"text":"對 所以針對國光生技講的這句話它不在它這個事發地點不在GMP的規範裡面正確嗎我們其實我們就直接開出了缺失了跟委員做進入報告你要回應我啊對 已經我們有開出了它的缺失它這樣子是不符合的所以不符合嘛所以國光生技是到現在還在騙還是怎樣那你為什麼講出這樣的話我想這個藥廠裡面難道不包含它所謂的實驗區不包含它的實驗室不包含它的研發區嗎"},{"start":13663.137,"end":13687.35,"text":"我想他們的認定上面呢跟我們去查查的過程當中呢其實是有出入的我們認為我們他必須要包含的相關的查案雖然說他這個在二樓的研發的獨立區域跟我們的上市產品的實驗區在B1跟一樓呢是分開來的是實體上面是區隔的所以對於所有的產品是沒有有風險的"},{"start":13688.951,"end":13707.203,"text":"不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一�"},{"start":13717.594,"end":13737.693,"text":"吹哨者的報紙是說去年的7月台風馬台中市2425就已經停班停課也因此國防升級的員工就偏移行事直接把實驗室放在實驗室中兩天重新上班之後發現老鼠屎尿滲出 瘤痰滿桌事後又拖了三天才一種也就是說這些老鼠在實驗室待了五天"},{"start":13738.823,"end":13761.597,"text":"不僅如此連莊保養署的紙箱被沈尿濺濕這種應該立即丟棄的東西竟然還堆在實驗室好多天部長跟署長可以看拖影片那這個實驗室裡面有檢測核酸與DNA濃度的精密儀器製冰器和溫水槽加上有鹽酸、硫酸、混合磷就連研發人員的實驗跑也通通暴露在污染中對不對"},{"start":13763.118,"end":13784.871,"text":"報告委員第一個部分呢有關於這個實驗室的部分其實在26號正式上班就已經移走了這部分說進一步說明那整個實驗室呢在去年113年的8月6號呢也遷移到南投那本市查查呢也確認了這個空間呢所以我們8月6號的時候我們就不要再談嘛好不好我們就談這個事發的當時的時間才準確嘛你連事後的傾銷到底有沒有落實"},{"start":13791.295,"end":13816.34,"text":"其實也沒有知道嘛 也不知道嘛有進一步的有清消 這個記錄上面你們有指出這是他缺失之一嗎對啊 研發部門環境消毒 記錄也不完整啊報告外務員 他們有做清消 只是我們覺得他的記錄不夠完整記錄不夠完整嘛 所以還是提出了一些糾正另外這個缺少者的說法說二樓實驗室二樓廁所是瀰漫到整個樓梯間喔而樓下一樓就是品管的檢驗區"},{"start":13817.64,"end":13834.512,"text":"那另外雖然品管檢驗區是獨立的空調空間但除此之外這整棟大樓空調系統也是相通這些鼠毛衣會在大樓流竄所有工作人員在這個工作環境下在工作所以即便品管區有區隔這樣的環境"},{"start":13835.453,"end":13849.189,"text":"你們會不會要幫國光掛保證我們沒有掛保證因為跟委員這邊報告因為整個的空調系統是獨立的那我們回風的時候其實它轉生的所謂的"},{"start":13850.97,"end":13876.119,"text":"過濾跟阻隔跟傾銷的部分呢其實它的整個空調系統裡面有進一步的做阻隔時間有限啦齁我當然是希望讓你答覆的清楚不過可能要就陳瑋瑜所講的大家要抓的精準啦齁因為他之前已經講說沒有違反GMP了我就覺得非常的離譜到極點了這是第一點啦齁第二點他絕對不是只有這個環境而已不是只有這個研發實驗室"},{"start":13877.813,"end":13888.635,"text":"你看喔除了生產區未落實無菌跟監控外先生有沒有做管理紀錄就這樣被...欸對不起他在這個他在這個對不起我用一個隱喻啦就是五福製藥這個部分啦五福製藥的部分去年才發生的事情他有針對這事項的缺失"},{"start":13906.874,"end":13923.866,"text":"你們就把它列為嚴重違反GMP的藥廠對不對那你們怎麼處理跟委員最近報告因為這個跟產品之間是有關係的所以直接會對品質有影響所以它列的層級就自然所以國光生技你的意思跟我表達就是說跟產品沒有關係"},{"start":13924.963,"end":13947.453,"text":"你要直接這麼講目前我們去查查之後因為廠內的製造疫苗的產品跟生產跟檢驗都沒有在這次涉案的範圍的區域執行因此我們判斷是沒有對疫苗的品質跟安全有差異的但是我們一致還是要去強調是我們是對國際一致性的PIX GMP的規範"},{"start":13949.573,"end":13975.723,"text":"對藥廠進行定期跟不定期的一些查查希望我們能夠嚴格的把關製藥業的一些製造的品質處長你們對五福是這麼處理的剛剛我講的那一段是針對五福除了生產區會落實無菌跟健康外實驗室也沒有做管理的記錄你們這樣就把它打為嚴重違反GMP那現在是直接實驗室裡面有微規養老鼠甚至於飼料紙箱都不丟然後存放在那邊要培養什麼樣的東西"},{"start":13976.564,"end":13982.319,"text":"這樣的GMP廠可以雲東風情說因為他醫療的區域不一樣請大家放心可以這樣嗎"},{"start":13984.318,"end":14010.554,"text":"我們這一次要重申其實食藥署對於國內藥廠的GMP是已經建立了我們國際的規格只有這樣子嚴謹的國際規格才能夠讓我們的產品可以到全世界都能夠走得通所以我們對於這件事件我們非常嚴謹的去做採取雖然說我們看到它是獨立管理的品質是無虞的但是我們還是提出了嚴重的缺失以上說明徹查到底"},{"start":14011.758,"end":14030.105,"text":"絕不慣敗一定會的不然我們前兩天才上禮拜才講說人家那個世界的那個極大的藥廠投資是在新加坡怎麼反而不選擇到台灣來如果這個事情處理得不好真的會一笑大方也會折損我們就整個在執行這個GMP過程裡面"},{"start":14031.708,"end":14041.174,"text":"對人民對我們的信息會大打折扣啦好不好 可以吧可以的 我們一定積極的採取好 謝謝對不起齁 稍微再給我一點點時間啦齁我請經濟部的次長江次 嘿"},{"start":14045.891,"end":14072.834,"text":"社長一邊走一邊聽美國貿易代表在3月31公佈2025對外貿易障礙評估中其中點名台灣豬牛馬燈設有貿易障礙等於是我們在歧視這個台灣標示美豬美牛是這樣的一個歧視的行為但事實上台灣的肉品都有標示產地不論美國就連澳洲就連日本甚至於台灣本土都會標示出來甚至於被川普講的加拿大比較稱為他的"},{"start":14073.955,"end":14088.991,"text":"一周我們都要標示出來嘛哪來的歧視哪來的不平等哪來的沒有公平你們簡單回應一下是我們的現在的相關的標示呢都是一體適用的所以未來呢我們在"},{"start":14090.24,"end":14110.07,"text":"我們未來的談判團隊一定會去跟這個美方去說明清楚這個部分呢是在台灣在台灣的話是一體施用對所以我是要特別強調說如果是這個樣子美方就講說實際上在歧視那相對其他這麼多國家都是一樣在台灣一視同仁的標示出來"},{"start":14111.089,"end":14138.102,"text":"那來來有歧視的問題不可能嘛對不對那你今天你美國牛肉豬肉輸入到台灣輸給加拿大輸入到台灣的這個整個的數量那是他們自己要去做檢討修正嘛反而不能來講說是我們設下貿易障礙讓他們的銷售量低於其他進口的國家的銷售量嘛我想這個談判裡面應該你們應該是可以來拒以力爭看著讓人緩和來把這事情講清楚嘛"},{"start":14138.553,"end":14149.076,"text":"所以臺灣的農業絕對不能成為這次美國貿易關稅談判桌的籌碼市長可以做到嗎剩下不到90天整個臺灣團隊在政府院長的領軍之下我們一定盡我們最大的這個能力農業是一個非常敏感的在那個產業後那臺灣是以農立國臺灣以農為本那絕對不能在這次關稅談判中然後讓我們臺灣的農業"},{"start":14165.061,"end":14177.231,"text":"去受到任何的傷害跟責損好不好可以啦 謝謝那第二件事情是這樣這個關稅不僅全球起商人連各行各業都受到不同程度的衝擊有一個職業逆風上漲市長有掌握嗎有一個產業的人才的人力它是逆風上漲就是有近七八成的民眾有關稅占影響工作但是這個AI職缺卻飆升到11%"},{"start":14193.513,"end":14208.227,"text":"市長知道這個事情嗎?美國川普也宣布要赤字五千億美元打造這個STARTGATE然後的AI超級企劃也要讓美國走在全球的AI領先的地位嘛中國研發Deposit可獲得AI人工智能"},{"start":14208.968,"end":14226.879,"text":"其實這個人工智能戰爭已經熱戰中了各國都投入在這個AI領域連工業總會在因應這次關稅中提出六大建言其中有一個就是強化AI人才培育那我請教次長台南何時能有原產的國產的原生AI誕生"},{"start":14228.93,"end":14248.587,"text":"報告委員AI也是這個艾總統所說的五大信賴產業之一所以我們現在相關的部會尤其是在經濟部積極的在培育AI的相關的人才到目前為止我們從賴政府上台之後到目前我們已經培育了6萬人次所以我們的目標是在4年之內要培育20萬人到現在已經有6萬人"},{"start":14255.732,"end":14283.885,"text":"所以經濟部的相關的部會都在進行人才培育工作那實際上其他的部會包括樹發部等等也都在進行相關的工作你們有培育到6萬的人次的?有你確定?是我們看一個資料就好了差不多請你簡單再答我就好了你看這個排名我們是21嘛全球AI這個指數嘛對不對然後郭部長還特別提到說今年年底要超越香港"},{"start":14284.945,"end":14311.979,"text":"是不是 然後看明年能不能再超越第六名的藍函嘛齁那你們有一個從去年開始政府就喊出2加4的人才培育方案每年要培育2.5萬的海外生嘛對不對然後國內是2.5萬嘛四年要培育20萬的AI相關人才你講的是這個啊對現在已經有達到6萬的 6萬人次去年才開始呢對 但是因為呢我們所謂的培育的話是包括我們經濟部所屬的所有的"},{"start":14313.09,"end":14327.991,"text":"這個掌管的產業別包括製造業以及你在最後看一張表格好不好你看這個全球AI的指標有七大指數有七大個指標嘛齁台灣我們除了這個基礎建設有極盡滿分啦其他除了政府"},{"start":14329.103,"end":14345.049,"text":"策略、商業、集人才、政策環境等等好像都不盡理想我在去年6月12日總諮詢有特別建立說雲林科大退場之後有30公頃的校地12棟校舍空間可利用可以成為台灣首座"},{"start":14346.049,"end":14372.078,"text":"這個AI人才的培訓基地郭部長也有承諾那你們金光鼠也在8月5號今年的8月5號不是去年8月5號有提出環球課到退場的校地營運規劃那規劃有三大主軸第一個是AI國際經貿暨雙軸轉型人才培育創新研發暨AI新創育成支持輔導其他就幼齡壯齡在地熱火了那如今這個全球的AI戰已經如虎如同在展開"},{"start":14373.376,"end":14385.949,"text":"但是環球消停還限制在一個地方你們資金的產花署三大功能下落不明所以部長要宣誓要趕到14名明年要趕到第2名我覺得指日不可待"},{"start":14388.93,"end":14404.577,"text":"你怎麼笑出來報告委員我的剛剛的您所說的這個排名的檢討我們在部內確實有做檢討我們也希望能夠精進我們全這個全台灣的AI不只是人陪甚至包括相關的這個環境那"},{"start":14406.536,"end":14433.445,"text":"您所提示的這個環球科大的部分我回去再跟產發所在我這邊這樣嘛你的另外人士等一下會後給我們委員會資料第一個看你整個執行的狀態是怎麼樣那第二個我希望剛剛針對這個環球科大要來做整個轉移應用成為AI的這個培訓人才你們的時程是不是可以加快有相關的積極的這樣的報告給我們來做參考是好謝謝好謝謝召委謝謝"},{"start":14435.067,"end":14435.889,"text":"謝謝劉昭偉謝謝次長那接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":14452.39,"end":14466.52,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 政務機關首長代表會長 共同夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們農業部的杜次長 經濟部的江次長以及經貿談判辦公室的嚴副總談判代表是 委員好次長好 次長好 先請教江次長像你看這次美國的關稅衝擊"},{"start":14479.99,"end":14502.513,"text":"對台灣來講我們現在是比較擔心出口賣不到美國還是擔心美國進口很多到台灣來哪一個你會比較我們衝擊比較大我覺得站在經濟部的立場我們當然是非第一點的話當然是希望我們的廠商都可以將他最好的優質產品出口到全世界各地重要的市場那現在是對是不是進口的衝擊影響可能比較大"},{"start":14503.496,"end":14519.469,"text":"目前為止因為川普是苛徵10%的關稅是對我們的出口的部分但是對於進口的部分現在還是持續觀察中我們請那個嚴副總裁那麼在這樣的一個進出口的變化當中請問對台灣跟美國的農業來講是我們賣給美國的農產品多還是美國賣給我們的農產品多"},{"start":14529.971,"end":14551.057,"text":"當然是美國賣給我們比較多我們是美國我們進口的美國是第一名嘛對不對但是我們出口跟美國的美國占我們出口市場第一名美國只是我們進口是我們是它第八大它是我們的第一名我們是美國出口對象的第八名"},{"start":14551.533,"end":14571.003,"text":"但是他是我們出口對象的第一名對但是貿易值上面他是順差的對他是順差的換言之如果我跟劉建國他是我唯一的好朋友我是他排名第八的好朋友你覺得誰比較擔心誰我比較擔心嘛美國是我最大的出口市場我只是美國的第八出口市場農業部好來現在換農業部了"},{"start":14574.548,"end":14592.103,"text":"是 委員來 處長 那天喔 來 我們看下一頁那天在4月13日 高雄龍街中 你沒跌嘛你可知道我們的寶座不會移動嘛是那天是跟模特兒一起在說嘛這段主席聽過 你可以休息我們台灣的模特兒 一半是大紀元 一半是華僧 是不是這樣"},{"start":14594.265,"end":14616.587,"text":"外鄉的摩托 日本占7成 美國占3成 是不是這樣?沒有人喔?好 但是呢 美國的市場裡面 吃摩托吃同桌是不是吃中國的?對好 現在中國跟美國的環境 中國的摩托沒辦法賣美國啊?現在美國是不是很大量?所以我們要補充說什麼?台灣的摩托要趕快去抽美國的市場對不對?"},{"start":14619.506,"end":14626.736,"text":"再去美國的市場但是中國的模特兒 模特兒不會去美國 它不會來哪裡不會來日本嘛日本跟中國是連關稅但是我們台灣小日本是六趴的關稅所以我們現在是不是在日本的模特兒市場受到中國的威脅"},{"start":14636.408,"end":14647.715,"text":"是不是這樣?是所以說一個無約的關稅差別會造成說我們來美國的市場我們台灣要趕快去吃但是我們在日本的市場要歡樂中國來吃是不是這樣?是好來我給你們看好來所以另外一方美國是不是出口很多紅豆?是美國出口的紅豆是不是最近一半是在中國?中國現在中國會跟美國買紅豆嗎?所以你看這樣美國的紅豆會下去嗎?"},{"start":14666.227,"end":14694.402,"text":"有可能的下去美國的黃小玉下去對台灣的容顏什麼衝擊 什麼影響我們台北分的黃小玉都對美國來啊所以我們有好康就對了嘛大家共產黨就有好康就好現在我們來看世界在吃地霸進地霸跟出地霸出靠地霸的國家是不是這個國家比較奧秘美國只有大陸少這地霸要統治的是中國 日本 白色國家 英國有台灣沒有沒有嘛 台灣很小喔 想想看 來"},{"start":14695.834,"end":14719.145,"text":"台灣齁 現在齁 台灣吃的豬肉一成是進口的六成是我們本土的九成九成啦齁 本土的豬肉99%是供應過來的不夠1%是消外國消兩千噸嘛 消哪裡新加坡 菲律賓有消日本嗎呃 加工的有加工的有齁過去30年間 台灣的豬肉出口是現在的超過100倍是27萬公噸 噸啦 27萬噸"},{"start":14725.512,"end":14740.64,"text":"現在只剩下兩千樓 外面來看 來所以你要看 30年前日本進口的地霸有四成來自台灣台灣出口的地霸有九成是小日本日本對台灣的地霸基金有重要嗎 多少有重要 但是現在呢"},{"start":14741.58,"end":14758.671,"text":"現在日本的進口地盤美國、加拿大跟其他都請不上司機問詢對不對?有台灣嗎?沒有所以說台灣的地盤我們現在要出口是不是修正科留的應該是日本的集團市場是好來往那邊看請問台灣的地盤出口有什麼優勢?"},{"start":14759.966,"end":14781.861,"text":"我們的地板好吃啊好吃不會燒焦嘛有煙過嘛我們它通風不燒焦但是治療尋問管人工管對不對是所以好來往下面看來下面所以我們的治療我們的起地的尋問裡面都是人工管黃曉玉啊對 治療檢查過六成是但是我們的治療比例裡面黃曉玉在哪裡"},{"start":14784.215,"end":14789.818,"text":"所以說如果美國的黃小玉下跌,我們台灣的飼料下跌,台灣的飼料的競爭,地霸的競爭,那是什麼樣的結果?"},{"start":14805.087,"end":14814.953,"text":"治療這麼痛快嘛所以治療六個月我們台灣的第二競爭力就退開嘛有競爭力嘛啊你這樣好 要存這行治療用油對待一陣感不懂應該是我們國內自己有很多那個化製油脂的部分治療的油啊很多都是卡尿啦台滴的卡尿下腳尿 還有地霸奶啦但是地霸奶台灣人有在吃啦"},{"start":14833.024,"end":14836.726,"text":"美國人有在吃豬肩膀嗎?比較沒有啦 他們不會吃所以說你來想啦咖哩油的咖哩是不是美國很多的"},{"start":14843.761,"end":14865.318,"text":"這就是要你考慮的就是這樣我問過一些治療手因為說現在這個黃小玉下去治療的成分更多對他們來說是好事但是他們欠什麼他欠瘦的當然有油啦就是卡尿啦所以你能支持我們的協博書去了解一下嗎現在美國在到黃小玉下去之後他們的卡尿他們出口很多滴肉嘛他們不會其他國家的滴肉到那裡不會卡尿有在那裡不會滴肉來嗎"},{"start":14874.8,"end":14901.572,"text":"所以這個時候我相信他們的卡尿也受所以我們現在的治療我們的油我們的動物油進口有進口黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆"},{"start":14903.697,"end":14907.159,"text":"不要用過的東西不要用過其實是你不知道啦我們治療前有在用啦靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜"},{"start":14932.076,"end":14935.537,"text":"要總體來看總體來看來 苦寶針我們做的來說台語你也會通來兩個來 最好結論啦 結論啦是不是都會補 都會補 處長你是不是可以講解一下原來的處長介紹以及提升台灣地盤去日本的市場這麼有倫 你來提一個報告"},{"start":14951.963,"end":14960.785,"text":"去日本的保溫現在是比較沒辦法因為我們地溫要先清掉才有辦法生鮮果所以要加油啊30年前日本是我們統統的外銷市場啊結果現在一年才2000噸過去是一年26萬噸欸我們要提出書面報告你來提出齁好來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":14979.969,"end":14989.855,"text":"對啊 這做得到啊那如果沒有 你也要去奉祭啊因為做治療是你們在管嘛做人質是部長在管嘛所以你們作為合作 把這做好好不好好好 謝謝好 謝謝宗嘉斌委員盧縣議委員質詢"},{"start":15004.554,"end":15031.213,"text":"主席有請我們經貿談判辦公室副總裁副談判代表代表好我看了4月11號有沒有視訊會議那我找相關資料都看不到說到底談判了什麼有沒有好消息有沒有壞消息告訴大家"},{"start":15033.16,"end":15049.556,"text":"謝謝委員那不過因為我們台美談判基本上有這些互信的基礎那就是說這談判過程的有一些資訊因為還沒有到一個比較穩定的階段所以這個都還在保密的狀態好那謝謝那我們有請經濟部江次長"},{"start":15058.846,"end":15071.25,"text":"市長好 剛剛看到我們4月21號有公布就是申請辦法關於這個出口供應鏈的880億後來又追加到930億我想知道說關於這個930億這個部分會到哪裡去"},{"start":15077.062,"end":15102.377,"text":"除了这个700个180亿刚才行政院院会有做讨论所以除了经济部原先的这个410亿以外我们还有50亿会来协助这个我们相关的厂商做设备的太阳刚看到就是说如果说本来是单愿于收受影响是大概是15%以后才有申请资格吗"},{"start":15102.977,"end":15113.267,"text":"現在放寬到說一年內或者是半年的那個營收可能影響到10%的時候也可以申請那我是覺得說以後有沒有更好的一些措施"},{"start":15114.534,"end":15134.587,"text":"这些话因为这些也是我们过去一直跟产业界在做沟通然后做了很多的产业之旅从院长副院长一直到部长都有这是也是去反映业者的他的需求所以我们才会把相关的这个标准给放了很希望说881能够透明"},{"start":15135.608,"end":15153.682,"text":"而不是又去做了一些我們覺得不適合的事情那我是覺得說這一部這邊能夠把這些880或是後來的930能夠很清楚的讓民眾知道說這個錢到哪裡去了謝謝那有請外交部下頁市長"},{"start":15159.201,"end":15168.468,"text":"市長嗎?鮑威,我是貝雷斯副市長那我想說你一直把美國當作非常非常好的朋友可是我覺得他們對我們這樣子你覺得會不會難過啊?"},{"start":15173.167,"end":15197.115,"text":"我們的台美關係其實是它有延續性的啦那這個不管是哪一個政黨過去這雙邊關係在過去10年來一直是有可能是不是我們賺他們的錢太多了我看一下2017年的時候我們那時候的順差大概就是我們賺了他們大概84億美金那現在已經是649億美金也就是說多了7倍所以我們就被他們點名了下一頁"},{"start":15198.137,"end":15213.369,"text":"他說我們是30-15 30喔這個字眼如果就外交字眼來講是不是很難聽啊如果是佔了第六名那你覺得說他有攻擊性的言語的時候外交部有沒有做一些就是對我們國格的一些辯護啊"},{"start":15215.374,"end":15231.073,"text":"包委員這個其實主要是說他那基本上是依據這個貿易的貿易量貿易逆差那其實台灣過去去年的貿易逆差是特別高是因為美國他也是他的推動到高科技AI產業造成的意思就是說其實"},{"start":15231.693,"end":15256.13,"text":"我們一直把他當做很好的朋友可是他們用的字眼或什麼其實我們還是可以適當的反擊因為覺得說對我們作為一個小國可是是經濟大國我們非常驕傲我們非常對我們的這些經濟成就很像是我們國人的榮耀可是我們被放上去的時候他說dirty所以我覺得這個dirty的部分我覺得事實要做回應謝謝我請衛福部長下一位"},{"start":15261.246,"end":15282.456,"text":"其實我們的這些跟美國大部分都是跟資訊相關然後跟醫療比較沒有大的關係不過我剛看了就是我們在就是今天的主題就是牛肉跟豬肉的部分剛才也知道說其實豬肉很像沒有佔很大的篇幅大概也不到10%那我想說再下一個再下一個"},{"start":15284.377,"end":15303.576,"text":"我們一直在想說這個我們跟美國在談判這些我們的農產品的時候是不是這些我們的疑慮啊是不是都應該被保證不會改變希望部長這邊看看這幾個條件比如說基改食材啊農產品只要發芽了就要全部退貨"},{"start":15304.096,"end":15330.208,"text":"可是他覺得這個應該要更改或者說我們的產地標示這個部分還有他一直在質疑我們的檢驗紙太嚴格了這個部分能不能一一回答一下好 師父我先請署長回答我再來補充好就關於Codex參與標準什麼更為放寬這個議題因為檢驗的這個部分是議題適用是非常非常的精準的"},{"start":15330.828,"end":15357.057,"text":"所以檢驗的開發的時候 它用的是它希望我們用WHO的標準嗎檢驗的開發呢其實在國內的食藥署的研檢組裡面也做完整的開發開發過程中請問推估跟推算的過程呢是可以能夠做國際接軌所以我們有最重要的國際接軌比如說那個豬腎的部分說40ppm或PPP它希望能夠改成90就是將近一倍這個部分你覺得怎麼辦在當初"},{"start":15357.757,"end":15373.62,"text":"在朱盛的時候訂了40ppb的過程中其實做了非常充分的討論討論過程中其實強調的一點是我們國人的飲食設施上面的特殊性因此有這樣子的折衝之下我們跟國際上標準是有不一樣的"},{"start":15374.281,"end":15399.314,"text":"那我們其實會計算出相關的一些設施的安全的範圍我們每日的設施的範圍是可以應該不會放寬吧我們會計算出那個精確所有的在標準是訂定的我們會以國際標準跟科學關係希望我們能夠更改我們的實驗的方法他甚至他的建議裡面就是在貿易障礙的報告書裡面他也希望說我們的實驗室的標準應該要跟他們一樣"},{"start":15400.594,"end":15414.025,"text":"應該說那個方法齁其實方法不同其實結果是一致的啦所以並不是說因為方法開了之後所以你要去說服美國說我們的方法是一樣的這個一致的是如果讓他精準用A B方法產地標示的部分呢"},{"start":15415.562,"end":15438.104,"text":"目前我們產地對豬肉來說明的話我們對國內任何的豬的來源其實是不管國內國外都是一體適用的做我們的一體的標示他的貿易障礙報告書裡面他就一再的在強調這個字就是說我們的leveling他覺得說台灣不應該有這個那你在談判的時候你要怎麼去說服他呢"},{"start":15438.644,"end":15462.178,"text":"我們針對這個議題裡面我們並不是針對美國的產品有這樣的歧視我們強調的是歧視一再都是我們國內是一體私用的你要說服他啊是不是對我們現在就好像我想要說服一下這個委員一樣我們是一體私用國內國外所有的豬肉的來源我們都會標示這個其實沒有歧視的意思你為什麼這麼擔心我跳到最後一頁"},{"start":15463.078,"end":15470.607,"text":"那我想請問部長就是關於他就說他有那個貿易障礙的部分報告是最後一頁最後一頁"},{"start":15473.939,"end":15495.797,"text":"他藥品的部分他說我們缺乏透明度跟可預測性不過他說因為經過他們的努力看了這個第一段的告訴第二行他說2024年的1月其實因為他們的努力他我們健保署有縮短了他的Pricing Approval Timeline也就是說"},{"start":15497.096,"end":15508.214,"text":"他們有努力所以我們台灣這邊就把申請的核可時間縮短那我的意思就是說他一再的要求我們就會達到他們要的目的嗎"},{"start":15509.757,"end":15537.285,"text":"我想不是這樣子我們那個任何的一個要求我們都會站在說它的合理性嘛但最重要就是能不能說這樣的一個要求對我們國人的健康是一件好的事情關於醫療器材的部分部長最後還有他對那個自費的那個一些醫療器材他希望能夠放寬那你怎麼說你怎麼想"},{"start":15539.298,"end":15559.644,"text":"我們建自費平台讓程序他希望有一個自費代碼可是我們這個健保署是幫我們來說明我們已經建了一個自費平台讓相關的廠商申請他民眾查詢資料的時候都能夠更資訊公開透明也方便行政審查所以我們要做一個把關的動作是正在做了對是好謝謝"},{"start":15565.232,"end":15568.721,"text":"謝謝謝謝盧縣議員 謝謝部長接下來我們請高金素美委員質詢"},{"start":15576.082,"end":15600.823,"text":"謝謝周圍 大家都辛苦了到現在大家還沒有休息但是為了國人的健康我覺得我們應該是要很嚴肅跟非常辛苦在這邊都是為了國人的健康來把關的4月2號美國總統川普他向全世界宣布要徵收對等關稅而我們的賴清德總統在4月6號的時候他就宣布了要以五項策略來應變請大家看一下"},{"start":15601.784,"end":15616.355,"text":"我想這五大策略的應變呢所以才是我們今天未還安排這樣的議題顯然是因為賴總統他宣布的這五大策略提到了零關稅和排除所謂的非關稅貿易障礙所以我要請衛福部的部長還有農業部的常務次長經濟部的政務次長以及行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表一起上台"},{"start":15635.459,"end":15664.171,"text":"我從2021年我就一直開始對於美國所謂的貿易障礙評估報告的台灣這個部分我不斷的就提出來我們的政府我警告我們的政府特別是美國他指責我們對於豬肉的標示還有牛角肉的進口還有非基改食品進入校園這些嚴格把關的政策他們說是不科學的貿易障礙"},{"start":15665.311,"end":15690.56,"text":"在這裡我要請台上已經台下的各位官員還有媒體朋友們注意一下貿易障礙是美國政府他用的用語而我們應該要把這些長年以來我們堅持的稱為貿易自保措施因為呢這些措施是為了要保護我們國內產業的利益還有人民的健康請問一下大家同意嗎部長"},{"start":15695.25,"end":15716.567,"text":"美國說是貿易障礙我們不可以跟他一起說這是貿易障礙啊我們應該說是貿易自保措施啊如果真的是站在全民的利益跟健康把關的話你同意嗎我非常敬佩我們的委員是說這些措施是為了保護國內利益跟人民的健康這是我們共同堅持的那自己用什麼樣的名詞"},{"start":15717.928,"end":15742.194,"text":"也敬佩委員的智慧對很好所以你也同意嘛對不對我們民主大家都會來用這樣子的立場是同意的這樣子的所謂的貿易自保措施才是真正站在台灣人民的健康跟利益來把關啊因為有了這樣子我們才可以去談判啊對嗎好最近談到的對等關稅行政院用了一個字眼叫做極端情境"},{"start":15743.314,"end":15745.715,"text":"那我們現在就來看一下賴清德總統他如果要替美國掃除貿易障礙之後我們台灣會面對怎麼樣的極端情境有哪些來進口的美國稻米變成零關稅"},{"start":15760.28,"end":15779.773,"text":"進口的美國豬肉不但零關稅還必須取消標示然後牛角肉必須要開放進口並且要零關稅基改食品零關稅並且要開放進入校園取消美國農產品的萊克多巴胺和農藥殘留容許量的限制"},{"start":15782.876,"end":15790.404,"text":"開發美國發芽的馬鈴薯要進口然後要取消服務貿易限制取消投資限制等等"},{"start":15791.933,"end":15813.573,"text":"這麼樣一來台灣的產業還有人民的健康將何去何從呢?880億的進水撲滅得了美國對等關稅跟貿易障礙所燒起來的大火嗎?我要問一個更尖銳的問題就是政府就算是用這種還沒有談判就先亮底牌的策略看一下這五個"},{"start":15815.494,"end":15822.117,"text":"12345是我們賴總統他已經跟美國說他準備這麼樣的做還沒有跟我們大家全民討論他就已經公開的在媒體上這樣說了然後我要問一個更尖銳的問題就是政府就算是用這種還沒有談判就先亮底牌的策略去迎合川普川普他也不見得會滿意我們看一下越南"},{"start":15841.084,"end":15845.31,"text":"越南就是一個例子越南他也答應要零關稅開始來談判但是川普的貿易顧問納瓦羅他直接就講不夠因為美國對越南的貿易逆差還有1200億"},{"start":15857.507,"end":15877.498,"text":"越南還有非關稅的作弊行為 請注意一下納瓦羅的用語他不是用障礙 不是用產地 而他用的是作弊行為就好像剛剛盧憲英委員說的 他用那麼樣的詞彙來對待他的好朋友台灣"},{"start":15879.222,"end":15895.647,"text":"這根本就是漫天喊價的勒索嘛那我們要對美國這麼樣無底洞的勒索要照單全收嗎當然我談的是越南我現在跟你談的是日本日本在美國這一次對等關稅談判他是排第一順位"},{"start":15896.627,"end":15911.063,"text":"而日本首相石破茂20號他就說了我們不會在食品安全的問題上面妥協再講一次我們不會在食品安全的問題上妥協那我們呢"},{"start":15912.318,"end":15929.385,"text":"我們是要把美國所謂的貿易障礙當作表忠的先例嗎我們是要全部取消呢還是為了國內產業的利益和人民的健康要跟石破茂首相那樣周旋到底絕對不妥協請問一下 部長"},{"start":15934.621,"end":15949.474,"text":"我想我們對於人民的健康的維護食品安全的堅持這是絕對政府不會妥協的好很好講的跟石破茅一樣萬一沒有打到你怎麼辦萬一被妥協了你怎麼辦我們"},{"start":15952.311,"end":15979.203,"text":"不過所有的事情就是在這樣的原則之下我們還是像我們衛福部的角色就是專業的做科學的一個分析提供一個在那個按照國際的標準以及我們國人的飲食習慣的一個提供專業的意見給我們談判的一個團隊我從早上就一直聽到你在講科學這兩個字其實一講到科學我就頭皮發麻了"},{"start":15980.043,"end":15980.444,"text":"因為為什麼要在這邊提醒你因為"},{"start":15985.336,"end":16010.055,"text":"因為這個所謂的科學的重要性就是中美貿易倡議的良好法制作業這一章我相信你們都應該知道了有五個地方提到了科學而美國貿易障礙的評估報告在台灣這個部分當中美國他也指控我們沒有科學依據就有三個地方"},{"start":16011.036,"end":16022.949,"text":"而我曾經對陳建源院長也談過這個問題他說我們要按照科學依據尤其是美國的食品法典委員會CODES標準那請問一下我們還是按照這個標準嗎"},{"start":16030.106,"end":16054.521,"text":"請問一下就剛才提到的科學的標準的部分我們其實對於科學這一塊定下來以外另外配的是國人的飲食調查裡面的國人營養調查的數據會有國人的飲食的特殊性所以這種特殊性之下提供出來我們的特殊性是什麼對 我們特殊性裡面的飲食你說我們在不同的年齡我們吃豬肉吃很多啊"},{"start":16055.502,"end":16068.797,"text":"所以這個東西都重新都算過了所以算完之後呢我們訂出來標準一直以來按照這個標準我們在邊境裡面查查所以你的科學所謂的科學是美國都接受的"},{"start":16071.88,"end":16088.273,"text":"我覺得它是Universal的是全世界都會共同認定這是可以的錯了 你是食藥署對吧是的 你知不知道歐盟它是拒絕基改食品它依據的是什麼它依據的是卡塔赫納生物安全議定書"},{"start":16090.815,"end":16118.394,"text":"這個也包括日本也用這一個所謂的議定書來拒絕美國的基品食物然後進入到校園所以呢我今天為什麼要請三五位上來尤其是談判總代表處是吧嚴惠欣副總談判代表對吧好你是行政院經貿談判辦公室很重要是"},{"start":16119.673,"end":16145.406,"text":"那您認為您認為你們要怎麼樣在談判的過程捍衛堅持台灣人民的利益還有健康我想我們基本上我要講我們跟美國的談判不是只有專門只有談這個美豬美牛的議題然後我們基本還有什麼議題我想對等關稅的來源拿一下我們賴總統那個五個再放一下這個嗎"},{"start":16151.952,"end":16166.428,"text":"跟這個都有關係嗎對等關稅的來源確實就是來自於川普政府他們自己宣布對等關稅的背景是因為其他的關稅各國的關稅太高還有非關稅障礙還有匯率的問題以及各國還有一些境內稅這些貨物稅的問題"},{"start":16168.05,"end":16181.818,"text":"那是總結這些來說所以他希望各國要去看待他們自己國內是不是確實有這些美國所關切的所以談判應該是怎麼樣知己知彼對吧是談判最重要的是你是台灣的代表對吧"},{"start":16182.779,"end":16198.763,"text":"沒錯台灣是不是應該代表2300萬的人民站在第一線捍衛我們的權益這也是我們的責任好如果這一次沒有辦法捍衛到人民的健康跟利益你們該怎麼辦如何向國人交代我想我們一定距離一生"},{"start":16202.686,"end":16224.024,"text":"只有據理力爭嗎有任何的需要我想這個都需要朝野的共識所以我們一定會來爭取我們絕對是同意的啊我們絕對堅決站在你們的背後啊對謝謝委員絕對是啊但是我現在要講的是萬一今天達不到我們說的捍衛人民的利益跟健康該怎麼辦你們"},{"start":16226.406,"end":16242.178,"text":"我想國人的健康不會是談判的籌碼我們一定是這個是我們的基本立場好 你能不能學剛剛那個部長一樣講的講得更清楚一點當你們去談判 因為你們已經有視訊談判了嘛"},{"start":16243.98,"end":16260.158,"text":"因為我的總職群院長告訴我已經有視訊了然後近期馬上就會統整視訊談判當中所談到的問題然後直接的進入到核心來談判所以你們已經有一個想法了也有一個談判的要點跟籌碼了"},{"start":16264.793,"end":16289.365,"text":"我們現在正在統整各個相關的地方還在統整啊還在統整因為我們的談判團隊各有分科縱使已經有了一次的這個所謂的這個視訊談判你們還正在統整視訊是交換讓大家增進了解我們也是要確認美國實際上那請問會談判幾次這個完全是我們現在正在進行當中的議題幾次都不知道啊有沒有在你們的規劃當中"},{"start":16291.392,"end":16318.882,"text":"呃就是這個部分都是持續在進行的所以你們認為你們準備充分了嗎我相信我們是廣泛的去收集各種情資目的就是要讓台灣的好如果今天我在這邊全民都在看全民都在等召委特別安排了這一次的這個委員會讓你們來做說明跟報告就是全民都認為這是非常嚴重的事情甚至於是台灣的國難"},{"start":16321.144,"end":16349.31,"text":"所以你們要秉持著跟石破茂一樣的精神告訴美國告訴他說人民的健康人民的利益是你們不容許被美國這樣子踐踏的可以嗎了解在這樣的基礎上面去談判可以嗎了解我們會我們會去理例證好我們都在等我們都在看謝謝好謝謝高經文謝謝部長次長那接著我們請王宏威委員質詢"},{"start":16356.199,"end":16366.128,"text":"謝謝主席 請邱部長中央健保署社會及家庭署農業部次長經濟部次長"},{"start":16378.793,"end":16389.439,"text":"今天行政院院會通過了非常重要的就是針對因應美國對等關稅的特別條例及特別預算那麼"},{"start":16391.058,"end":16412.738,"text":"本來從880億現在喊到了4100億所以他多了3220億之多那我想先請教邱太元部長增加這麼多的預算請問一下衛福部從原來的880億增加了多少預算"},{"start":16417.142,"end":16445.122,"text":"880億原來沒有衛福部好那現在3,220億增加了3,220億衛福部多了多少預算我想我們第一時間我們就做了衛福部所有的部門都做了盤點以及說會有部長多多少因為今天這個行政院院會公布啦好不知道沒關係來來來我們中央健保署好我們健保署相關的有關健保多了多少預算"},{"start":16447.757,"end":16460.966,"text":"我們也是今天上午看到新聞才知道才知道好來來我們社會及家庭署來請請準備來準備那請問一下就是增加這麼多3220億我們有關於社會及家庭這些相關的照顧有增加多少預算"},{"start":16472.232,"end":16493.641,"text":"那個我們也是早上才知道早上才知道對不對早上才知道好好這個謝謝你們的回答來農業部農業部的次長因為我們這次非常關心農民就是怕農民會受到一些影響所以原來880億裡面我知道有關農民的180億嘛"},{"start":16497.262,"end":16509.799,"text":"那好那現在多了3220億之後我就多了嘛比88增加那請問一下我們農民的部分農業部的部分增加多少預算我們應該是維持現行的還是維持180億還是只有180億所以這3220億你沒有分到"},{"start":16515.765,"end":16537.064,"text":"我們並沒有提出沒有提出所以就沒有分到好謝謝來請問一下經濟部經濟部政務次長江次長那麼原來880億那個應該是屬於經濟部中小企業的部分但還有勞工的部分他是企業家勞工一共是700億700億那請問一下增加了320"},{"start":16545.683,"end":16560.146,"text":"3220億之後請問一下經濟部這邊不管是國貿中小企業產發產業發展我們增加多少的預算報告委員原來經濟部的部分是410億現在增加50增加50億所以460億好所以從原來410億只增加了50億也就是說這3220億裡面我們只多增加了50億是吧"},{"start":16571.748,"end":16598.536,"text":"還有我們有台電的1000億對台電沒錯台電有1000億還有嗎以上是經濟部的部分經濟部的部分好謝謝因為其實我們相關部會我其實覺得我很想知道勞動部是能夠增加多少錢因為我曾經跟那個院長是希望能夠增加對勞工紓困的部分好但是我覺得我剛才經過詢問我非常"},{"start":16601.518,"end":16606.082,"text":"這個大為這個差異我為什麼來問我們衛福部因為呢他在現在我所看到的資料會撥補勞健保300億但是到底撥補勞保多少撥補健保多少不知道total 300億但是我竟然衛福部並不知道"},{"start":16621.835,"end":16626.659,"text":"好然後他另外說要照顧弱勢要增加170億那我想衛福部也是照顧弱勢的嗎我們衛福部就是最主要照顧弱勢的這個部會嗎那但是部長也在狀況外我就不曉得這170億是怎麼匡列出來的好所以呢其實按照原來880億變成4100億以現在我們所掌握的資料包含"},{"start":16650.579,"end":16654.645,"text":"原來的支援計劃從原來880億變在930億然後勞健保300億台電1000億照顧弱勢170億提供高教人才200億TOTAL 2600億"},{"start":16666.398,"end":16678.964,"text":"總共2600億 我在努力的在幫忙算因為我們這個每一分錢都是來自於民脂民膏然後這裡面呢還有1500億我不知道要用到哪裡去還有1500億 很奇怪"},{"start":16682.466,"end":16690.655,"text":"很奇怪我們其實今天今天那個我們行政院院會都開完了都對外宣布我還不曉得1500億到哪裡去當一送來我們就要嚴格的來審查只要該用到的"},{"start":16697.822,"end":16700.443,"text":"用在刀口上的提供給我們產業的勞工的勞健保的廣大的民眾需要的弱勢的我們通通都會充分的支持但是我剛才論論了一輪我發現我們這4100億到底怎麼來的非常離奇"},{"start":16717.671,"end":16746.023,"text":"相關的弱勢的勞健保的竟然都不知道都是看新聞才知道所以我不曉得這整個的預算的編列到底他的過程出現什麼樣的問題不過我想基本上非常謝謝幾位部長還有長官讓我知道我會不會回應一下是這樣子這個政策我想是連續的因為突然早上我們大家都在這邊開會所以"},{"start":16747.364,"end":16760.557,"text":"不曉得他的數據但是他不可能今天早上才決定啊那怎麼出操弱勢的這個部分尤其是獨基島這個是一直都是我們跟行政院在爭取的那第二個部分就是"},{"start":16762.585,"end":16777.214,"text":"健保的一個安定基金這個部分我們也希望行政院那我聽到您這個報告跟我知道這個好消息你好高興 竟然是從我嘴巴裡告訴你我覺得政府能夠體諒到衛福部的需求"},{"start":16779.194,"end":16802.021,"text":"這個部分我非常的感謝該發的錢我們會充分支持但是編列預算總是有編列預算的程序嘛對不對尤其在公家機關或者以前當立法院一定要知道這個編列程序怎麼來的但是呢我非常訝異既然我們這幾個主要單位是到現在在這邊或者早上看新聞才知道以上謝謝"},{"start":16805.397,"end":16809.942,"text":"好謝謝汪委員謝謝部長次長那接著我們請徐宇珍委員質詢謝謝主席我們請問福布車部長"},{"start":16829.448,"end":16845.516,"text":"有關美國貿易代表署 針對2025的對外貿易障礙評估報告我想今天早上已經有非常多的委員 大家都有請教過您因為他們再次點名台灣對美豬美牛等限制為不必要的貿易關稅障礙"},{"start":16847.017,"end":16863.56,"text":"而且甚至直接要求我們要取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食物的禁令賴清德總統也投書這個美國的彭博社也提到要致力於排除非關稅貿易障礙那我在質詢卓院長的時候卓院長表示會考慮國情及國際共同標準及科學根據來與美方討論本席請部長先回憶一件事情就是當年"},{"start":16875.402,"end":16895.22,"text":"蔡英文政府執意開放寒萊劑的美豬美牛進口時說是為了台美關係為了FTA鋪路那當時的行政院說開放換來的會是台灣走入國際與美國簽署自由貿易協定的大門請問部長現在幾年過去了台美有簽訂FTA嗎"},{"start":16898.206,"end":16922.88,"text":"好 學委委員的質詢 詢問我想剛剛有提到美牛這個部分是在馬英九總統時候進來的啦那美豬當然是蔡總統這個部分那我想我們任何一個 不是 我們絕對不會因為部長我請教您 台美有簽FTA嗎還是有任何的貿易協議具體落實嗎"},{"start":16925.191,"end":16944.87,"text":"就這幾年過去啊台美倡議有簽訂的台美21世紀倡議所以雙方的溝通可以更為通暢所以更為通暢的意思就是說我們可以極力的表達我們反對美豬反對美牛進口在不標示產地嗎"},{"start":16947.368,"end":16966.69,"text":"這邊我跟委員回應一下標示產地這件事情是一體適用的我們現在對台灣豬美國豬西班牙澳洲任何一個國家的豬進入台灣都是產地標示的都一體適用都是要標示沒有特別的現在是美方要求我們馬上也是關稅談判的一個"},{"start":16967.49,"end":16986.622,"text":"一個他們的要求所以我們今天會在這邊當然就是希望我們衛福部這邊部長能夠具體的承諾就是說不會開放含萊劑的豬肉進口也不會不用標示產地也不會開放基改食品進入校園這個已經已經是"},{"start":16987.623,"end":17007.004,"text":"美豬是可以進口的不是這個可能不是現在 含萊劑的美豬是可以有標準0.01ppm是肉類的部分其實它已經是可以進口所以當時你們的食品因為有這樣的標示規定還有加強檢驗跟查驗所以我們可以看到你可以看到一下我們這個豬肉儀表板"},{"start":17008.767,"end":17029.977,"text":"113年國產豬肉進口豬肉都沒有檢驗出來跡為什麼就是因為我們有食品標示的規定要強制要求進口這個豬肉進行標示還有加強檢驗跟查驗所以美豬才美國才不敢貿然把這個有來跡的美豬賣到我們國內來現在你不用標示產地之後他是不是會這樣來去進行呢"},{"start":17032.584,"end":17057.965,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下這裡面的進口豬肉的邊境的查驗任何一個查驗任何一個國家都會進行查驗那查驗只要符合規定我們檢驗的標準以下都會符合我看到這個美豬儀表板喔表示美國其實有不是沒有來寄的美豬可以進口給到台灣為什麼他現在要求我們要取消這個管制的措施"},{"start":17058.906,"end":17072.266,"text":"是不是他們就是想要賣還有萊劑的這個美竹進入到我們台灣呢我想跟委員報告其實我們對於任何一個國家進來的我們都會驗驗裡面其實有沒有是本來是有萊劑的它因為動物體會代謝"},{"start":17074.389,"end":17080.933,"text":"我代謝的過程中我們假如是沒有測到就是沒測到的對大概是這樣子來跟跟委員說所以我們現在的標準是這樣嗎因為我們有加強檢驗的一個標準所以就沒有目前的話我們現在你的這個豬肉儀表板我們就可以看得出來嘛那但我現在講的是現在經過談判的時候他們現在要求我們不要標示產地不要有這個基改食品可以進入到校園我想請問的部長就是說你可不可以宣示喔針對肉品標示產地還有這個"},{"start":17104.929,"end":17108.756,"text":"這個基改食品進入校園您在這邊宣示我們絕不讓步呢我想我們還是"},{"start":17115.536,"end":17134.177,"text":"維護部跟我想政府也是一樣,是對於保護人民的健康還有食安的優先,這個是一定是不變的真理但是我們所有的制定政策或者管理的規則一定要用科學的分析"},{"start":17134.898,"end":17140.264,"text":"剛剛已經講過了 我想前面的委員都已經特別提到我現在請教您的是 您身為衛福部長針對我們國人的食安跟我們學童的健康這個部分絕對不能讓步您會在這邊宣示嗎會在國際的標準 在科學跟國際的標準下來"},{"start":17157.848,"end":17174.741,"text":"來做最大的一個所以您可以宣示說您絕對不會犧牲國人的食安安全跟這個健康我們台北的健康嗎回應委員一下所有的只要在我們的標準向下我現在請教部長不好意思署長我請教部長我想"},{"start":17178.484,"end":17194.234,"text":"部長其實我想今天這麼多的委員請教您的就是希望您可以在這邊您是衛福部長您應該為國人的食安要讓我們安心所以讓我們的學童安心我們保護食安是非常完整的好那您可以您可以針對這個部分我這是強烈的要求在關稅這個我們在談判的時候針對國人的食安跟我們的學童的健康絕對不能讓步"},{"start":17203.36,"end":17214.885,"text":"可以嗎我們那個對國人的食安絕對不會讓步好 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝許處委謝謝部長來 接續我們請葉延思委員質詢主席好 麻煩請農業部還有那個我們談判代表經貿辦公室"},{"start":17236.46,"end":17261.756,"text":"委員好是 那個我先跟那個談判副總談判代表嘛是 委員好因為我們看到日本啊他們在對美國在談判這個貿易協定的時候其實採取比較硬的態度啦就是說美國要求日本要把貿易逆差歸零還包括說要出口很多農產品到日本去還甚至叫日本去買美國車"},{"start":17263.412,"end":17291.041,"text":"諸多的要求啦我看到日本首相其實蠻硬的石破茂說他絕對會堅守日本的利益而且他不會很快就跟他們達成協議他們會長期抗戰我希望我們台灣也秉持這樣的立場啦不要說好像美國找我們了我們就川普找我們了所以我們就什麼都投降了他要幹嘛就幹嘛一定要堅守我們的國家利益啦也不要說好像為了要很快達成協議就退讓"},{"start":17291.921,"end":17296.908,"text":"這一點底線一定要守住跟日本一樣我先請教一下農業部"},{"start":17298.53,"end":17323.824,"text":"那個紐西蘭的牛奶紐西蘭的鮮乳現在零關稅進來嘛大家都之前農業部也預測說因為他零關稅鮮奶進來之後呢他的價錢一定會往下降所以你們在去年的時候才推那個慢慢喝鮮奶嘛要保護弱農嘛因為怕說紐西蘭的鮮奶便宜之後大家都去買紐西蘭的鮮奶導致國內弱農受到影響結果發現完全沒有影響他們的鮮奶價錢依然一樣"},{"start":17324.946,"end":17349.888,"text":"那我第一個問一下農業部你們當初是有誤判嗎應該這樣說其實推動國產應該是推動國產可溯源牛乳進到校園這件事情是為了國內的農農產業這件事情是對的那第二個紐西蘭進來到台灣的產品其實乳產品很多但是鮮乳不多他大概都是起司奶粉比較多"},{"start":17350.749,"end":17373.91,"text":"那當然關稅你又沒回答我的問題啦那第二你有沒有去了解一下說為什麼他都零關稅了結果他的價格還是跟之前一樣這是卡在哪裡看到兩件事情一件事情是紐西蘭自己本身因為其實出口的先入也是有限那去年能夠出口的也不多所以價格上面我不曉得是不是有這樣的影響之間我不確定那第二個進來即使成本低"},{"start":17375.171,"end":17390.044,"text":"即使零關稅不代表他一定成本低因為每個國家包括我們自己的養牛產業的成本也會因為有影響所以這個是次長嗎是我杜汶琛對那所以其實次長你現在講的就會讓人家覺得說去年不是大家對於這個"},{"start":17391.145,"end":17414.118,"text":"紐西蘭牛奶零關稅這個事情很緊張嗎然後現在感覺是好像沒什麼差別我是覺得因為現在消費者對這個東西很多質疑啦你應該了解一下說為什麼關稅降了之後它的價格沒有下來但我要提醒農業部現在你們在跟美國談的時候其實你有注意到美國奶的問題嗎你知道好市多因為好市多都進口加州牛奶嘛你知道它兩公升一瓶是多少錢嗎"},{"start":17416.311,"end":17440.307,"text":"抱歉我都買國產的一瓶兩公升一瓶在好市多大概賣一百二十五到一百三十塊那你知道台灣的鮮奶現在一瓶兩公升大概賣多少嗎也是一百多一百六到一百七所以美國的鮮奶是比台灣便宜很多而且好市多還是在付很多關稅的情況之下他還可以把價格壓那麼低"},{"start":17441.488,"end":17464.983,"text":"這個代表什麼呢這個代表說我們現在跟美國談判如果美國要求說我們在鮮奶這一塊呢零關稅的話美國的鮮奶才會很低價的進到台灣我剛剛已經舉了那個好事多的例子給你聽了那當然這個對消費者來說是個好事啦以後消費者就可以買到很便宜的鮮奶美國鮮奶但是我站在農業部的立場你一定會保護我們的弱農嘛"},{"start":17465.603,"end":17470.346,"text":"我一定是對所以所以你到時候就會哇又要推什麼斑斑喝鮮奶啊或者是長輩喝鮮奶啊軍人喝鮮奶啊"},{"start":17473.291,"end":17501.421,"text":"又會搞了一堆這個政策出來那所以我現在是提醒農業部當然站在你們的角度一定是保護假設最後談判結果是美國的牛奶有大舉入侵你們一定會推很多配套措施出來可是在推配套措施出來的時候一定要考慮到這個執行面的部分就不然的話就會跟斑斑喝鮮奶一樣搞到最後農業部就退場了為什麼呢因為發現學校沒有那個斑斑喝鮮奶的配套的設備"},{"start":17502.401,"end":17524.623,"text":"大家都訂保酒奶保酒奶又不夠所以最後農業部退場然後變成地方政府看哪一個地方政府自己要執行再去執行就一團亂所以提醒這件事情美國的牛奶如果要進來你一定要做好準備農業部一定支持國內的一定要做好準備啦一定要做好準備啦因為他會比紐西蘭的鮮奶影響更大農業部一定支持國內落農產業謝謝"},{"start":17529.212,"end":17530.794,"text":"謝謝葉委員謝謝次長來繼續請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝謝召委有請部長委員好"},{"start":17547.062,"end":17570.03,"text":"好部長我們來看一下喔PTT那這一份的報告2023年6月完成的美國豬肉查核報告那出國的期間是2022年9月12到9月20齁其內容所引述的這些相關事實準確性可以參考這個可供參考引用性的如何還沒好還沒好沒關係沒關係時間是不是暫停一下"},{"start":17576.641,"end":17584.97,"text":"出國的時間是不是9月12到9月20那這份報告您覺得引用性參考性依據OK嗎您知道這份報告嗎2022的嗎沒關係署長可以救你署長請說"},{"start":17595.159,"end":17621.255,"text":"報告委員這邊美國豬肉的茶盒的部分我們其實是例行性對於任何進口國家的進口的廠所以是例行性的報告例行性去的時候其實同時我們會跟農業部房檢署的同仁以及專家代表我們一起我知道我知道來我們看一下這份報告第五頁裡面有提及我們英文說寫NFBAP這個制度請問一下這個制度是什麼"},{"start":17625.509,"end":17629.632,"text":"NFBAT從未為時已行受體數計畫部長你有講過嗎還是部長都不知道"},{"start":17646.067,"end":17646.107,"text":"這個可能"},{"start":17673.733,"end":17688.28,"text":"這一個計畫就是告訴我們全國人民美國養的豬不會全部都是萊豬有58家的畜牧場的美豬是從未餵食以行受體數"},{"start":17689.977,"end":17707.175,"text":"部長您到底知不知道這個部分可以我做一點點署長請說好那就針對NFBAP的部分餵食的部分有58家這件事情從未餵食從未餵食的這件事情是屬於自願性的一個標示我知道"},{"start":17707.816,"end":17724.019,"text":"他這個是不是一個強制性的那以上簡短說明好謝謝你的分享那我想部長今天你才知道這個計畫嗎看起來是今天才知道我跟你提醒的但我要講的是如果他有從未餵食以行受體數的這樣子的一個美豬"},{"start":17725.72,"end":17750.156,"text":"那為什麼我們沒有去爭取這樣子的一個美豬來到台灣而是一定要有來寄的美豬我想林維州委員發文去詢問但是這一個部分並沒有得到他要的回答所以我想問一下部長您今天到底知不知道這個NFBAP所參與的這58家的美豬有多少賣到台灣"},{"start":17755.166,"end":17769.431,"text":"我想我先補充一下啦,這個可能要查一下,因為這個,我們在上一屆,你那個周委員也是同事啦,我們共同對這個問題也做了相當多的討論。對啊,你是同事啊,雖然這是進口的問題,但是我看,豬肉的查核報告,是你們出國的捏。"},{"start":17775.313,"end":17797.924,"text":"不是其他單位出國怎麼你們完全不知道你已經眼睜睜的看著你的計劃報告裡面查到了NFBAP所有的有將近58家畜牧場是沒有用乙型受體數為什麼我們不去爭取這一部分來到台灣而不是來寄的這些萊豬呢到底沒賣到台灣那美國的NFBAP計劃的美豬賣去哪裡"},{"start":17801.005,"end":17822.951,"text":"報告委員其實美國進來的大部分現在其實是沒有收入金的也就是沒有PAP的部分我們有抽樣調查所以基本上是未檢出嘛對不對但是未檢出來氣但我希望是已經有這樣子的一個計畫它是基本上一定是零檢出因為它是從未餵食已行受提出"},{"start":17823.331,"end":17835.409,"text":"是更加能夠保障我國國人的一個健康的話那為什麼不跟他談論說這58家你賣給我們呢再來部長我再問一下NFBAP這一批美豬您知道賣到哪裡嗎"},{"start":17840.307,"end":17864.221,"text":"署長可以解救那這邊特別提到的上面是對消亡中國的市場部長我的答案都給你了你怎麼都沒辦法回答呢我想這件事情很嚴重我們這個PT5這個裡面報告寫得很清楚抽樣結果如未檢出則符合NFBAP可受亡中國"},{"start":17865.282,"end":17879.989,"text":"那如果檢出了最低最高低於最高容許量則販售非中國市場如檢出且高於最高容許量則將不與販售並停止停止檢體"},{"start":17881.73,"end":17904.187,"text":"這個株枝農場的一個供貨不管政策的對或錯符不符合科學的論證政務官都要為現在既定的一個政策做出辯論這無可厚非但是我還是不禁想問美豬竟然還有分成有跟沒有乙型受理樹那為什麼美國要為美國要台灣多吃有萊劑可能性高的一個美豬"},{"start":17904.707,"end":17925.515,"text":"而不是吃從未餵食已行受體數的這個計畫NFBAP的美豬給台灣針對美國貿易代表署剛剛許多的委員都在說了美豬加標示是所謂的貿易障礙部長您或許會說我們靠抽樣檢查不論是足皮檢查或者是加強"},{"start":17926.556,"end":17937.552,"text":"抽樣的一個檢查來把關但是美珠並未驗出萊克多巴胺並不代表沒有含萊劑我不知道趙薇站起來速度這麼快"},{"start":17938.769,"end":17965.484,"text":"但是我要講的是說今天萊豬有可能還有瘦肉精但是抽樣檢驗是未驗出不代表是零檢出啊依據藥物食品安全週報第509期啊所談論的檢驗非萬能啊鋸買不良的產品我們還是希望針對美牛美豬的標示問題不是貿易障礙剛剛有許多委員在提我要講慎重的跟您報告衛福部部長邱太元部長"},{"start":17966.284,"end":17992.059,"text":"所有的在野黨做你的後盾所有在野黨做你的黑臉去跟美國對談的時候就告訴他我知道你有作為一個政務官為難的地方但我們在野黨作為全國人民我們當最大的黑臉讓我們來當這個黑臉告訴美國我們希望我們的國人是健康的你要去運用在野黨的反對"},{"start":17993.36,"end":18015.479,"text":"我們希望在這一個全國國人都希望我們團結的情況之下一起面對這樣子的一個狀況部長今天我雖然非常非常的憤慨但是我們是要作為衛福部的後盾守護國人的健康你可以認同嗎好我想我不但認同而且我也跟委員報告我想政府跟衛福部也是以"},{"start":18017.179,"end":18037.699,"text":"維護全民健康維護食安為最重要的一個工作最後30秒我想昨天經濟日報有一個相關的說法說世界正在重新認識美國和中國其中有提到美國農業部長被記者問到如果中國反制美國的相關農業的時候"},{"start":18039.861,"end":18065.476,"text":"美國農民該怎麼辦說美國的豬肉不賣中國可以賣到東南亞美國的農業部部長霸氣的回應美國的NFBAP的豬肉可以不賣去中國部長在美豬政策已經回不到原來的現在可不可以要求NFBAP的美豬賣給台灣萊豬萊牛吃那麼久也沒有看到我們能夠加入CPTPP印太經濟的架構我們還是希望會後你提供幾個"},{"start":18066.917,"end":18074.723,"text":"計畫給我們我們相關的資料在美國到底有多少這樣子參與NFBAP的一個計畫佔總體的比例還有相關的設施從113年到114年蘇台的美國豬肉生產設施共有幾家進口的總數量有幾家上開蘇台的美國豬肉生產的設施"},{"start":18086.652,"end":18094.064,"text":"參與這個NFBAP到底計劃加速又有幾家我們都希望能夠了解你們在食藥署總體在這個期間加強邊境的茶宴還有市場的稽查計劃如何這些資料我希望會後能夠提供可以嗎"},{"start":18102.9,"end":18115.965,"text":"謝謝委員我們這個部分我們積極的其實已經有一部分資料我們盡快的做彙整謝謝好今天大家都非常有願都很關心這個議題部長加油好不好一起為國人健康好謝謝雷委員謝謝部長好繼續請陳穎委員質詢好謝謝主席那個麻煩部長跟石耀署長部長"},{"start":18138.153,"end":18157.725,"text":"大家好我想今天本席要再次質詢衛福部跟食藥署把食品廣告、健康效應通通當成是醫療效能的這件事情我想這不只是法規上的荒謬更是對我們全民健康的霸權壟斷"},{"start":18159.766,"end":18185.287,"text":"本席在上個月16號質詢的時候就有講過食品及藥物廣告標示及醫療效能認定的準則把健康跟醫療畫上等號那害得業者動輒得咎那人民追求健康的權利被剝奪今天我就用兩個實例來檢驗你們的邏輯看看你們的標準到底有多離譜也希望今天我跟署長的對話可以有交集"},{"start":18187.369,"end":18207.401,"text":"我們第一個案例好來看一下這是國建署的這個案例那這個國建署算是你們自己人好國建署的部分在這個他們補助的廣告寫著輕未償代謝好那請問這個邱部長跟江署長這句話有沒有問題"},{"start":18209.676,"end":18214.478,"text":"代謝好是健康效應還是你們說的醫療效能?跟委員做經濟部報告清腸胃跟代謝好是抽象的概念"},{"start":18231.864,"end":18246.785,"text":"對於這個抽薑的概念裡面提到的是腸胃道假如是長期有些便祕的狀況呢假如是有蔬菜的話其實它有膳食纖維它可以有機會能夠讓我們的排便更順暢那代謝好呢 那其實"},{"start":18247.385,"end":18264.274,"text":"我們裡面蔬菜的膳食纖維對於血糖的穩定度是非常非常高的它可以減緩我們血糖吸收的速度對於血糖的波動是這樣因為血糖的波動叫做Glucose Bar Sugar Oscillation就是波動波動的越高高高低低我簡單這樣問啦我簡單這樣問齁國健署這樣子的廣告該不該罰"},{"start":18269.963,"end":18289.498,"text":"我想這個齁它是抽象概念對蔬菜的這個增進而且每日五蔬果蔬果五七九這件事情我們覺得這個特供是非常非常好的如果說是業者這樣寫的話你們就不會罰了是不是也是抽象概念我們對於廣告的名詞上面其實我們都是正面表列說哪些"},{"start":18290.199,"end":18314.441,"text":"不適合的地方有根據食品安全衛生管理法第28條食品不得宣稱醫療效能也就是不能說治療或預防疾病可是輕胃腸你說治療便祕的話就是不行的如果說治療便祕就不行它叫輕腸胃這個問題是抽象的概念裡面能夠去做它可以達到因為這個東西呢"},{"start":18315.922,"end":18329.731,"text":"所有吃進去看得到的照片裡面都會增加我們糞便的殘渣這糞便殘渣就會讓我們的水類能夠保存避免便秘現在你講的就是國健署就是不用法這樣的案例是不用法他沒有宣稱醫療效能好"},{"start":18334.858,"end":18362.597,"text":"可以那大家把這個記住來再來看這個案例二教育部的膳食纖維預防腸道疾病的廣告這個廣告的案例就更誇張了教育部推廣健康飲食說多吃含纖維食物可以預防腸道疾病及控制血糖這句話呢就直接踩到你們認定的這個準則第五條第一項的紅線宣稱預防疾病和控制血糖"},{"start":18365.119,"end":18374.101,"text":"不是嗎那我想問的是說教育部這個廣告應該就違法違法按照你的標準那他該不該罰呢還是又很抽象"},{"start":18375.1,"end":18402.552,"text":"我這邊跟委員說進一步說明從整體來看你看到1 2 3 4 5裡面各項裡面把裡面重要的去說明之後每一項提到的是重要的含膳食纖維的概念在底下那膳食纖維概念底下呢它畫了腸道裡面有畫了那個應該是小細菌的代表的感覺降低血中膽固醇預防心血管疾病"},{"start":18408.9,"end":18431.931,"text":"報導委員 上面寫的那個降低預防或改善便祕好 跟委員特別說明一下他沒有任何產品 產品沒有在裡面啦這裡面是沒有產品的 廣告是要做產品的一個我們是針對特別產品的但是你們的食品 食品 在講食品"},{"start":18433.075,"end":18450.89,"text":"也是一樣的對 我的意思是說如果是一個特定的一個產品它的廣告針對裡面的所有的論述這邊特別跟委員說明一下其實是說有助血糖的控制它裡面提到的是一種我們針對這個它不會說我可以治療糖尿病這個不行"},{"start":18453.09,"end":18480.658,"text":"預防便祕改善便祕的情形這裡面的是改善他沒有特別提到說我可以治療便祕治療的話就是所謂的我們剛才講的醫療療效接下來呢他提到如果今天如果今天在你們的認定每個人都可以像署長這樣子的話我想爭議可能就會少很多了吧但是問題是事實上可能不是這個樣子"},{"start":18482.297,"end":18506.837,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的跟我們提醒我們對於業者所有的廣告我們很積極的做所謂以輔導代替裁罰是我們要去做的那我們最近有一件事先跟委員報告一下我們特別的連這些媒體的平台特別的都希望我們一起來能夠協作剛來立法院你可能還不是很懂規矩就是"},{"start":18511.36,"end":18537.095,"text":"本席在問話的時候 你還要一直搶答 那我剩下的時間都交給你你繼續講我剩下的時間都給你謝謝委員 謝謝你就把它講到完 你還有一分半請委員繼續執行我想先看一下 先看一下"},{"start":18540.336,"end":18567.005,"text":"看一下那個簡報我們第三簡報三的部分我想是這個樣子在下一個下一個在很多的時候大部分的時候很多的這個解釋都被當作是醫療效能去處理在你們認定的時候因為有很多的這個醫療背景的專業人士在裡面"},{"start":18567.685,"end":18588.391,"text":"那健康效應的這個佔用的範圍就只有一點點所以這是本席要去提醒你們的一個很簡單的一個圖那我想今天的一個討論跟署長可能還是沒有交集但是他做了一個很好的示範"},{"start":18589.511,"end":18612.62,"text":"就是如果在未來相關單位在對於這個認定的時候能不能像署長這樣子那我想有時候很多的時候是會變成自己的那個標準會有一個新政在那邊他變成是一個模糊到讓人家讓業者無所適從的一個狀態"},{"start":18616.121,"end":18632.192,"text":"所以我今天特別要提這個案例那但是可能這個案例呢在署長眼裡看來是沒有問題的但是可能換了一個人這個案例可能就有問題了好所以我想要特別提醒的是說"},{"start":18634.574,"end":18651.606,"text":"在希望在未來這個食品安全衛生管理辦法第28條的第一項第二款的規定食品不得為醫療效能的標示宣傳或廣告好那你們把這個食品跟宣傳的廣告全部納入不得為這個醫療效能的範圍"},{"start":18653.767,"end":18681.721,"text":"但是在認定準則的時候又全部把健康視為醫療我想這個是大部分的人他們所會會犯的一個問題所以我想要在這裡很懇求兩位非常專業的這個老師跟學生現在都出塞啊可以好好的去面對檢視放下你們專業的傲慢好好的去面對真的就是有這樣子的問題那"},{"start":18683.854,"end":18704.667,"text":"如果如果署長認為我想我想如果署長認為說本期今天提出的這樣子的一個建議在你們的專業角度看來仍然是"},{"start":18705.896,"end":18729.657,"text":"很卑微的或者是不夠水準的那不管怎麼樣我想這個國會殿堂我也請你可以比較再更莊重一點我想我們是夥伴是好朋友但是我想站在一個良心的建議我還是會建議您修正一下您在台上的態度"},{"start":18733.136,"end":18737.123,"text":"那上次有說是兩個月內你們要把這個"},{"start":18740.051,"end":18762.931,"text":"你們要把整個的這個就是說健康效應跟醫療效能如何分清楚要把它定清楚不要讓大家無所適從那麼其實本席發現母法也有一些問題那我想今天時間不夠我就把這個母法的問題讓你們帶回去你們回去好好的研究一下所以"},{"start":18763.291,"end":18777.829,"text":"我想在這邊我做個結論你們還是好好的去檢視一下或許不同的人在檢視有不同的結果就是剛剛我提了這個國建署跟教育部的廣告說清楚他們的用詞到底違不違法"},{"start":18779.01,"end":18806.323,"text":"那再來就是說修訂認定準則然後參考國際範圍允許科學證據支持健康宣稱別在一竿子打翻所有的健康食品再來我希望你們可以再次的宣示就是說告訴全民你們什麼時候會改進這套落後的法規因為大家等不及了這個時間點兩個月都可以真正的完成嗎"},{"start":18809.595,"end":18831.055,"text":"我們謝謝委員我想這個其實是在追求健康裡面我們要以時計進的一個處理我們會剛剛委員的指示我們會來做如果牽涉到法需要再澄清的話可能要稍微比較多一點時間"},{"start":18831.872,"end":18855.647,"text":"但是我們怎麼做我想我們在這段期間裡面就會最快的速度跟委員報告我想我是這樣健康是人民的權利啦也不是衛福部的專利那現在都是AI的時代了那我們要怎麼樣吃得健康那也有權利知道就是說怎麼樣吃得健康活得更好我想大家不要用過時的這些法規當絆腳石"},{"start":18857.028,"end":18882.127,"text":"好 那有很多的知識常識 我們可以從這個很多的這個Source裡面得到一些答案所以我想兩位可以給本席一個很清楚的一個答覆我們希望這個改變修正可以不要再拖延好 我們一定馬上來立即來檢討最壞的適度如果有什麼進度都會跟委員報告好 謝謝"},{"start":18885.112,"end":18894.475,"text":"謝謝陳寗委員的質詢謝謝部長洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在張祺凱 張祺凱 張祺凱委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在"},{"start":18908.681,"end":18932.942,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員許新穎 廖偉祥所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在就以下決定報告詢答完畢委員執行為其答覆或請補充需要者請相關機關以兩週內書面答覆委員另行要求期限者從其鎖定"},{"start":18934.571,"end":18937.368,"text":"本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"160603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e504bbf2a59ea6a42ca427a29fd78ae4fec2be5dfb0591b1bf4f2bf9e8252050fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"09:56:27 - 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謝謝李委員的發言下一位請奧爾斯都市改革組織研究員"}]}},{"id":"160599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5b993dba2e42ede9fa427a29fd78ae4fe48de7f242c34ed8d9b76f11e714d12295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:44:16 - 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因為他怕被趕走所以現在的問題是租金支出沒有辦法申報所的扣除而才是問題而不是18萬或25萬的問題因為當你租了一個房子 房東不准你去申報的時候 你就不會去申報所以我給他30萬 50萬都沒有用 這才是問題所以政府的照顧 我們希望是擴大到"},{"start":138.226,"end":156.311,"text":"下階層的民眾尤其是租金支出成為他生活重要負擔的一部分所以改成特別扣除是希望能夠讓更多的人他有這樣的機會去做扣除最重要的一件事情現在的問題就在於說我們之前這個法案出來之後還有個排付條款"},{"start":157.071,"end":172.069,"text":"排富就是說你家人有房子的話你就沒有辦法用租金特別扣除了就產生了非常多在台北漂的孩子或北漂工作的人他因為父母親在鄉下老家有房子所以他在台北的租金不能夠做扣除"},{"start":172.329,"end":196.528,"text":"那這部分我們本來要提案修法那財政部很快速的就做了相關的因應之道把紅黃單為樓就你家的房子已經是紅黃單或者是災損或者是只是共有持份的或者是就醫就學能夠拿出證明在異地租屋的還有配偶因為有保護令而分居的方法這些都可以提出所謂的租金補貼也就是說法令執行面必須要符合現實的狀態那現在還有一塊就是"},{"start":199.87,"end":224.29,"text":"五月份要報稅了六月好像延到六月了現在我們希望財政部在租金扣除的部分要大力的宣傳尤其是可能還有很多的學校現在連宿舍的租金其實也應該可以讓他們抵扣但是很多人並不知道尤其是家長也不清楚所以除了財政部要努力之外我覺得教育部也要開始在大學裡面或者是相關的學校去做相關的宣導"},{"start":225.131,"end":247.91,"text":"那我們最後最終還是希望能夠用租稅稅制來引領所謂的租屋市場正常化讓黑市陽光化現在的房東他其實不是在不在乎他這個租金有沒有申報他在乎的是他在租給人家房子之後過了幾年他賣房子的時候他的稅率比較高所以造成是他不願意讓所有的"},{"start":248.49,"end":270.517,"text":"只要是出租的他都不願意讓人家申報不是擔心他每個每年的這個所得稅而已他擔心的是將來的交易稅這才是我們整個租屋市場沒有辦法陽光化的最重要的原因這些事情不解決你是沒有辦法讓所有的房東都把他的房子拿出來租還大喇喇告訴政府說其實我有出租而且我很驕傲錯"},{"start":271.317,"end":291.607,"text":"我們是要他們我們的法制是要讓他們繼續在陰暗的角落裡面因為他要規避他將來高額的所謂的交易稅所以重點是在於我們的稅制要不要做整體的討論在20年前我們開過全國負稅會議每20年大概都會開一次所以我們也要求財政部在"},{"start":292.367,"end":313.958,"text":"最近也快到20年了這20年我們也應該在就台灣的稅制開一個全國副社會包括在座的專家學者都應該能夠提供他們對稅制的一些看法所以我們認為說居住正義不單單只是一條列舉課除而是各種稅制的做法都必須要納入那我們最後舉個例子"},{"start":314.738,"end":337.99,"text":"韓國有一個很可愛的做法他說因為要拯救國內中小微企業所以針對商辦的租金商辦的房東他有一個善良房租房東的租稅優惠也就是你對你的房東願意降租金國家就給你更好的稅付優惠也就是減租的50%可以從他的所得稅裡面扣除"},{"start":338.53,"end":361.48,"text":"如果我們讓房東光榮的拿出他的房子也願意向政府來申報我們是不是有這樣的一個方式讓所有的房市能夠暴露在陽光之下也讓整個租屋的黑市能夠拿得出來然後也協助我們的中小企業以上 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那我們現在就來請我們河安會陳主任委員來進行報告報告時間8分鐘這邊這邊"},{"start":2008.905,"end":2028.461,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家好今天很榮幸代表核能安全委員會並協同各單位主管向大院進行業務報告首先向大院委員對本會各項工作的支持及指教至上敬意及謝誠"},{"start":2030.356,"end":2050.841,"text":"核安会为我国独立的核能安全管制机关独立行使原子能安全管制工作以下请就强化原子能安全管制等四项工作重点进行报告进行委员不论指教首先在强化原子能安全管制部分"},{"start":2052.438,"end":2078.792,"text":"本会持续对国内核电厂执行各项安全审查及现场视察并透过召开管制会议方式与台电就核电厂安全运作相关议题进行沟通讨论督促台电参照国际经验采行相关精进措施以确保运转及除异核能机组运作安全"},{"start":2081.058,"end":2087.552,"text":"在放射性廢棄物安全管制上本會與監督台電完成合一場室外幹處熱測室作業"},{"start":2090.171,"end":2114.343,"text":"目前正审查运转执照申请而核二厂室外宽储于1月开始兴建本会定期派员查核以确保兴建品质此外本会严格执行低放弃物设施运作及国员院研究用反应器处理至安全管制工作做好安全把关"},{"start":2115.731,"end":2144.959,"text":"在强化辐射灾害整备作业部分本会持续透过视察核电厂办理核灾演习及推动国际交流合作等方式强化辐射灾害整备作业今年核安演习已规划于核三厂及其临近地区举行此外本会与美国能源部合作办理大规模辐射灾害应变训练强化管制技术能力"},{"start":2147.694,"end":2168.662,"text":"在高强度辐射设施及移动型辐射源的管理上1973年合法一座医用高强度止死治疗设施完成130件放射线照相检验业工地不预警稽查并研发移动型辐射源科技监控技术"},{"start":2169.582,"end":2185.817,"text":"在推动辐射医疗曝露品质上,完成全国403部修改用X光及屏保审查,办理11场护理学校讲习,及规划建置自主学习网,强化辐射安全智能。"},{"start":2188.052,"end":2200.308,"text":"在全国环境辐射监测方面针对全国放射性落成食品饮用水及核设施周围环境等113年完成检测5611件"},{"start":2202.29,"end":2224.517,"text":"分析结果无异常情形同时全年无需稳定运作全台63座环境辐射签热站监测结果无异常情形此外协助食药署就进口食品进行边境管制辐射检测每年提供7万件以上检测能量"},{"start":2226.328,"end":2249.323,"text":"因应日本寒川废水排放事件本会持续跨部会合作进行海域监测113年已完成4616件次制样品取样机检测作业飞机结果无异常情形114年将持续监测逾4700件次此外亦已"},{"start":2250.143,"end":2274.131,"text":"提升国内生物栓检测能量能从每年500件提升至2000件落实监控海域辐射安全接下来报告原子能科技创新部分在拓展国际交流并进展核子保防义务部分持续与美国日本等相关"},{"start":2275.37,"end":2294.961,"text":"核安管制机构定期召开会议交流同时因应我国首次执行甘主任热测室作业本会及其与IAEA及台电协调成功促成IAEA配合我方骑乘多次赴现场检查确保符合核子保防要求"},{"start":2297.25,"end":2321.23,"text":"在推动社会沟通及原子能科普教育部分设立全民参与事务咨询会针对社会关注的核安管制议题之沟通模式邀请咨询委员给予指导与建议另以原子能科普进行社会沟通积极与其他单位合作以多元管道扩大原子能科普咨询之传播"},{"start":2323.981,"end":2331.837,"text":"為推動原子能科技民生應用並培育跨領域研發人才本會與國科會共同建立跨部會"},{"start":2333.223,"end":2357.728,"text":"合作管道113年补助学研机构执行59项原子能科技专题研究计划其中本会补助之34项计划共养成12个跨领域合作团队并培育学术博士人才72名114年亦持续与国科会共同补助64项计划"},{"start":2359.261,"end":2381.95,"text":"因應產業要求本會補助國原院執行各項計畫建立原子能關鍵技術並配合國家近年轉型至本土核電廠除以自主技術政策發展能源及核後端技術在建立原子能關鍵技術方面國原院積極推動"},{"start":2383.24,"end":2398.192,"text":"多类科家肝功能造影剂临床试验以协助肝癌病患人进行直死治疗前后肝功能评估另以创新技术成功开发"},{"start":2399.318,"end":2412.667,"text":"深化因感光層關鍵材料顯著提升品質與性能且具備低成本優勢可廣泛應用於國防安全與民生領域的熱影像感測器"},{"start":2414.605,"end":2436.565,"text":"在发展能源及核核核端技术方面国园院运用核设施清理经验及技术建立本土厨艺技术自主能力并配合政府能源转型政策开发电网韧性分析及绿能技术包括完成电网视觉化脆弱分析工具大面积"},{"start":2438.306,"end":2455.094,"text":"金属支持日成型燃料电池化国产高效能除湿轮等促进能源技术本土化为接轨新制线核能技术本会补助国营院进行SMR"},{"start":2456.405,"end":2470.973,"text":"相关先期研究评估SMR安全特性并延续核电人才培育此外国人院执行词约出高温电浆研究整合型计划以完成国内首座TOKMAK型"},{"start":2472.378,"end":2498.545,"text":"实现装置的细部设计进入建造阶段此计划皆以为自主开发提升我国合融和技术的自主研发能力本会将依法独立行使之前持续执行核能辐射及放射性物料安全管制工作同时精进原子能科技研发拓展相关民生运用并落实资讯公开及公众参与"},{"start":2498.945,"end":2510.015,"text":"以增进民生福祉及环境永续以上报告不尽之处进行委员指教谢谢好谢谢谢谢主委的口头报告"},{"start":2514.799,"end":2521.122,"text":"每位初席委員諮詢6分鐘列席委員諮詢時間為4分鐘發言人登記結束時間為上午10點30分委員如果臨時提案也請於上午10點30分前提出"},{"start":2532.406,"end":2547.078,"text":"並與本會委員、范雲委員質詢結束後及進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位柯智恩委員進行質詢謝謝周阿偉 我們是不是請陳主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":2561.576,"end":2581.954,"text":"主委好你好主委好你这是应该是上任之后第一次上台备选吗是的好我们来看一下因为你过去来说你在2022年的时候曾经有一个媒体的投书你认为我们绿能是严重的落后所以说在核电厂跟部分火力发电厂陆迅群下"},{"start":2582.714,"end":2610.988,"text":"很担心这个所谓的这个供电不稳所以建议我们非核家运应该延长到2035年主委你这样的过去的说法你现在还认同吗谢谢委员当时时空背景是第四接收站环境没有通过对了所以我说你现在还是认不认为应该延到2035对您过去的说法你像是反驳还是继续延续"},{"start":2614.844,"end":2640.342,"text":"这是属于国家的这也是国安的议题了我认为这个能源问题也是国安议题我当然知道我在问你说你现在还赞不赞成你2022年媒体投书的说法你认为担心这个电力的不稳定所以你认为非核家园应该延到2035我现在只问一个非常单纯的问题对你过去的"},{"start":2641.656,"end":2651.622,"text":"的论点你现在还认为应该持续呢还是如何行为稍微耐心一点稍微简单说明一下你认不认同只有一句话"},{"start":2654.346,"end":2679.104,"text":"对于你2035应该延到2035你过去2020是你投书的当然如果这样讲好了我只有六分钟一到2035年的话可以减轻我们这些压力是真的可以减轻我们的压力嘛对不对所以你认为说2035可能是一个虽然目前为止我们和三也要除异了我现在只是希望主委你过去根据你的专业你是难得一个我们和工背景然后站在这个位置上面我觉得"},{"start":2679.144,"end":2707.822,"text":"这个东西你要为你自己过去的言论来做一个背书因为呢我们知道你也特别提到因为能源政策是一个国家最上位的一个政策嘛那你遇到瓶颈的时候嘛你就必须要懂得一个变通然后呢所以我才会特别问您这句话你到底能够为新的核能做哪一些的努力这是我今天问的部分所以你的回应是什么新能源是吧我是说你是不是到目前为止任务的能源政策是不是应该还有更具有弹性变通的能力"},{"start":2710.018,"end":2737.137,"text":"这个是需要各方讨论的我讲我们也说过这个要核安核废料可以得到安全处置这个部分那个主委这个东西蓝绿从过去到现在都一直在核安跟核废料这两个问题在做一些讨论所以不容您多赘述我只是要跟您特别的问一下因为我们都认为能源政策非常重要"},{"start":2737.617,"end":2756.873,"text":"目前来说也非常多新的核能技术不断在发展但是很显然目前只有你们的国研院正在执行跟国科会有关的和融合的基础的研究中研院甚至表示他们并没有这样的一个能量来做新核能的研究但是你稍微看一下我是为你们在教区我们你们的国研院"},{"start":2758.835,"end":2764.282,"text":"找了這麼多的專家結果你們第一期的計畫只有1133萬整體計畫也只有3500萬第二期更不要講也其實只有6000萬到7000萬以你的專業的判斷你覺得國家投入這些資源可以跟得上國際的腳步嗎"},{"start":2776.651,"end":2792.746,"text":"我们确实需要加大脚步投资你这个加大脚步加大到多少美国每年投资大概是251亿中国大陆大概是投资472亿我们目前为止最多大概就是7000万这个已经不是加大角度了"},{"start":2793.126,"end":2807.849,"text":"所以就可以顯示當政府不但告訴我們這是有很多的彈性我們也很希望有很多新的技術可是顯現在一個數字上面來說你會發現它是完全沒有在這一塊面要多做努力的郭院長高院長你應該也同意吧你這些經費來說的話報告那個立委我們事實上合龍河這個技術你認為錢夠不夠嗎你們講太多了我時間很有限我先說明一下這個技術應該"},{"start":2823.962,"end":2838.462,"text":"近10年到20年應該不可能會產生所以這樣的經費就夠了目前投入研發適當的經費這樣就夠了所以說美國核融核的這個研究你們看到之後你都不覺得這個部分裡面政府應該追上他們的腳步"},{"start":2839.443,"end":2866.898,"text":"好OK然后呢特别是当全世界都在对这个所谓的新的核能技术展开的时候我们需要非常多的人才我特别提到嘛很多时候呢像过去有很多的这个企业界大佬还有特别提到的过去清大和工系是相当认为这是主委你当初毕业的可惜在场有非常多勤大的现在目前来说呢光是要招生都非常的困难而且你们还改了一个名字这个名字说实在的"},{"start":2867.438,"end":2884.737,"text":"叫做工程与系统科学系就是不要把合工这两个字放出来以前在我那个年代是私商还是非常多人愿意学习的然后你看我们再看下面所以具有美国官方背景的爱德哈国家实验室到了我们这个系栏里面"},{"start":2885.117,"end":2910.35,"text":"他甚至开出了美金九万五千大概月薪二十四万五千的台币想要来挖掘我们的人才所以说呢你会发现特别是我想诸位你也知道你过去来说合工背景的过去沉寂一段时间但是最近是实在是非常的热门当我们的人才培养好当你完全没有的时候以后万一真的有任何核能或是新的技术在家你要再把这些人才找"},{"start":2911.511,"end":2917.001,"text":"回来已经是不太容易了所以说主委你面对这样状况你难道不会有任何一点感触吗"},{"start":2919.837,"end":2929.46,"text":"確實我們核能人才過去二線流失的很多確實我們要這社會要加強包括你的經費你自己的說法你的各方面你如何能夠說服這些人我們要加強人才更不要說之前我也問到了可能台電要撤裁這個核發處然後呢他馬上澄清說沒有他們只是來做一個工作內容調整我再一次去了解以後他們就是打算把"},{"start":2946.345,"end":2965.293,"text":"核发处跟核能技术出来合并很多人除了继续做这个厨艺工作之外多余的人力都会把转到大潭新达电厂核工专业的人被丢到火力电厂主委你身为一个核工人难道你不会对这样的状况有任何觉得要为核工人说几句话吗这是核工人的风骨哎"},{"start":2970.717,"end":2985.646,"text":"確實我們的核能方面的人才有嚴重的斷層不管是各方面從台電也好 原能會也好都有嚴重斷層確實我們需要加強這方面人才培育第二我們要盡量保持"},{"start":2986.707,"end":3004.377,"text":"先有人你能保持下来不要再不让他再流失你连你连这个河安你连河南会被降到四级然后呢很多地方大家就想这样的一个单位每次问到你们这个部分你们只是在把这个河岸我最后讲那个赵伟再给我一分钟就很好"},{"start":3005.137,"end":3029.66,"text":"核核三厂的研议的问题我还是要强调这是问到这个郭智慧经济部长的时候他说必须遵照40年的一个规范这没有问题大家都知道所以我们当初只是希望能够更有弹性的一个做法但是很显然目前蓝绿都没有共识第二个核三二号机燃料池不足要解决这个问题这是经济部长所提到的要解决也解决燃料池的问题但是我问了"},{"start":3030.2,"end":3044.15,"text":"我特别发寒去问的结果告诉我们燃料池上有空间而且呢室内干储场即将要招标不管你要不要厨艺不管你有没有研艺说实在的室内的干式储存厂就是一定要干没错吧"},{"start":3045.413,"end":3052.438,"text":"所以不要用這兩個理由來告訴我們沒有這兩個理由解決沒有辦法往下走事實上他把這些所有的問題要嘛就丟給你們和安會要嘛就丟給地方事實上呢這兩個問題都不會是問題因為從林全院長開始就已經告訴大家室內乾式儲存場本來就是要設立不管有沒有廚藝所以剛剛郭志輝部長所講的那兩個問題其實只是來顯示政府不斷的告訴我們有彈性的空間但是呢他們一點都不想做你同意吧"},{"start":3076.886,"end":3089.703,"text":"還是我的話講太快你還要消化一下其他人可以幫忙回應一下有誰要回應一下這樣我才可以結束這次質詢啊誰可以回應一下對於郭部長所講的那個問題放回郭部長講的那兩個問題"},{"start":3096.311,"end":3117.945,"text":"台電必須遵照推給你們和安會必須要燃料池空間不足推給地方事實上燃料池目前空間還夠還可以用四年然後呢要地方支持興建乾式儲存不管有沒有廚藝都要興建乾式儲存這個是已經確定從林全院長開始就已經確定要建立了對我們是需要乾式儲存毫無問題"},{"start":3120.615,"end":3124.858,"text":"主委我真的覺得你可能需要在這樣的一個訊息上面可能需要多一點努力否則從我後面那幾個委員上台質詢的時候呢可怕都沒有辦法達到他們最需要的好我綜合最後我們需要更多的河岸人才我們需要更多"},{"start":3137.907,"end":3158.954,"text":"很多的核能技术的这样子的一个所谓的前置的一个作业然后呢我们更是需要有更正确的讯息来告诉我们到底未来我们新式的核能到底有没有机会再往前走这是主委你身为一个核工背景的人应该为你后面的这样子的背景来做一个最大的一个认证跟背书可以吗谢谢谢谢委员"},{"start":3162.274,"end":3172.602,"text":"好 謝謝柯之恩委員主委請回主委 你這種出登場的表現實在是不盡人意好 再來我們請葛如君召委好 謝謝主席有請何安慧主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":3202.381,"end":3217.165,"text":"主委好我們打起精神好不好台灣需要電我們也需要核能安全都需要這個拜託您我們來多一點交流有鑑於核三廠二號機再過不到一個月也許就要停機了"},{"start":3217.805,"end":3244.041,"text":"那關於核管法的討論呢在立法院第一會期呢其實已經排過巡達那本席呢也在3月19號有召開公聽會並且在3月31號進行實質審查目前核管法以第六條為主以及臨時修正動議呢都已經送出委員會那本席接下來呢就會召開協商然而在協商之前呢本席想跟主委確認一個事實就是即便修法通過"},{"start":3245.56,"end":3270.652,"text":"演繹也仍先待台電送出評估報告後再經核安會審核同意才能演繹我們這個理解沒有錯吧是的是嗎因為現在坊間有一些謠傳說我們很暴力修法啦罔顧核安啦就是我們修法通過以後還是很重視安全嘛台電也要先送報告嘛核安會也先要同意嘛 對吧是的"},{"start":3271.852,"end":3298.014,"text":"是嘛謝謝主委這樣子一個說法否則的話我想民眾可能會有一個誤會每一次研議的時候可能都會說有安全疑慮等等我想這樣其實不是很理性我想修法只是在幫政府解開法律的限制至於是否要研議其實也要看台電的決定還有和安會的評估那我繼續請教主委經濟部在4月初已經核定"},{"start":3298.795,"end":3320.183,"text":"放射性廢棄物處置辦公室的主任那依據經濟部的規劃後續呢將著手朝你高階核廢料的選址辦法並且目標要在今年的下半年來預告並且在年底的時候送行政院審查您身為核能的大家長核能安全的總顧問有給經濟部什麼樣的建議嗎核能"},{"start":3328.77,"end":3349.229,"text":"這個核廢料的安全處置一般是最好基於國際的經驗最好得到地方的支持就是因為叫Local Consent所以核安會現在跟這個辦公室之間的關係是什麼"},{"start":3351.28,"end":3375.767,"text":"這個我們本來河安應該是以河安會為主嘛那現在這個放射性廢棄物處置專案辦公室又把它成立起來那河安會現在跟這個辦公室之間的溝通是怎麼樣有決策衝突的時候比如說你說以Local為主他覺得不是或者你覺得Local已經同意了他說Local沒有同意如果有決策衝突的時候誰的意見為主啊"},{"start":3376.907,"end":3400.829,"text":"我們請陳署長回答報告委員 河安會跟經濟部的在河費管理這塊的分工他們是執行單位 我們是安全管制單位他們要設的這個條例 其實涉及到選址的作業還有可能將來的對於這個場址的回饋 地方的回饋還有一些政策配套措施"},{"start":3401.229,"end":3415.016,"text":"所以他們是執行單位你們是上級機關我們是安全管制機關我們是管制單位所以將來他選出來的長職要經過你們核可那如果他選出來的你是可以不核可的"},{"start":3417.624,"end":3432.439,"text":"將來因為他處置的時候要連同他的工程設計一起送就長期條件 安全 工程設計跟安全評估之所以設置這個是不是行政院經濟部覺得和安會能力不足啊為什麼你們不能直接來執行呢"},{"start":3434.057,"end":3450.169,"text":"整個選址作業都是經濟部跟台電公司的事務那我只問一個問題放射性廢棄物處置相關的專案在執行的時候有沒有核安方面的議題"},{"start":3451.558,"end":3478.168,"text":"有 所以我們每一年都會去查核台電公司的執行狀況查核台電我知道 但是之前你們河安推給台電 台電推給河安已經很多了現在又多了一個辦公室嘛那如果你們意見跟他不一樣怎麼辦我們會給他我們對於管制的專業意見那他們去依照我們的設定的安全的條件他們會去做選址的工作那他可不可以不認同"},{"start":3480.291,"end":3502.419,"text":"他會就是基本上因為我們設的安全條件是最基本安全條件那他應該要符合這個懸到長子上那他選址出來之後你覺得不同意你可以拒絕他嗎你會拒絕他嗎你會拿出這個guards拒絕他嗎如果他的選址結果和將來的整個工程設計"},{"start":3504.051,"end":3516.517,"text":"結果是不安全的那我們就說他是不安全沒辦法合格這個其實不只有我們將來他也需要寬頻我想其實聽起來你們很可能就是到時候還是會以經濟部的意見為主"},{"start":3517.984,"end":3540.522,"text":"那何安慧老實說我覺得你們真的是不知道是不是被行政院這樣發配邊疆還是怎麼樣有時候網友都有一些迷因圖說現在這個社會大眾希望能研議然後我們的政府說要以安全為由做各種的評估可是安全評估廢料處置全部又跑到經濟部跟台電去了"},{"start":3541.323,"end":3567.654,"text":"何安慧要不要乾脆解散啊你現在延誼的按鈕你也不按何安慧你說這個主導的東西你又交給別人這兩按鈕怎麼看報告委員我們對於處置安全管理規則還有他的長職要件我們都已經訂好了不是你訂的為什麼不能你執行就好了呢為什麼一定要他執行呢因為選址工作涉及到政策配套還有那個回饋這個都在後端基金後端基金主管機關是經濟部"},{"start":3569.571,"end":3584.567,"text":"好 沒關係 理解啦那我想這個未來還是務必要盡到對河岸的承諾好不好不要到時候引起地方的紛爭河岸會存在的目的其實就是要讓民眾對河能放心嘛不要像現在可能有些特定團體以不實資訊製造民眾恐慌"},{"start":3587.19,"end":3603.904,"text":"未來的溝通一定要做得更好那我想其實未來核廢料的這個議題我們也希望有一些新的可能性現在在日本有一些以核廢料為活性材料來做電 放電的這個做法請問有沒有聽說過 何安慧有沒有掌握過"},{"start":3605.885,"end":3621.882,"text":"所以高階核废料的处理方式它还可以再利用一直都会改进一直都会进步高階核废料可以经过某种转换可以转换成低阶核废料这个技术现在已经现在是它还可以发电"},{"start":3622.583,"end":3649.016,"text":"- 還可以發電- 有掌握到嗎?對,也可以發電放在Multi-Solid Reactor裡面可以把它放當作燃料然後直接把它減量所以其實很科學的嘛所以我想其實本席在4月10號的時候就執行中研院啦我們覺得其實很多新的科學技術都可以納入我們接下來的這個核能議題的發展那當時我詢問了中研院院長"},{"start":3649.836,"end":3678.679,"text":"為什麼他們的減碳計畫裡面的淨零五支箭沒有跟核能有關的哇 核安會的專業突然又被中研院放在旁邊去了那院長最後表示他們沒有跟核能有關的設備跟人才所以沒有辦法做核能的研究而且這個他們淨零五支箭只選擇社會大眾沒有在討論的東西來放請問主委核安會有沒有核能相關的人才或設備台灣有沒有核能相關的人才或設備"},{"start":3680.037,"end":3689.005,"text":"雖然是有的不過數目一直在減少中那這樣我們怎麼跟得上國際趨勢呢所以說要加油嗎"},{"start":3691.74,"end":3719.6,"text":"我想這個部分跨部會合作好不好我聽你說真話啦謝謝你說真話我覺得我們應該要在這一塊加強而且應該也要向中研院來提供意見未來中研院跟對不起我在跟主席爭取一滴滴時間就是說未來跟中研院有沒有可能來做計畫的合作像德國現在也已經開始在做合融合剛剛我們科委員也有提到合融合相關的這個發展的探究未來有沒有跟中研院合作的可能"},{"start":3726.739,"end":3741.125,"text":"我們跟中委院去年有跟廖院長洽談了整整半年原來有去探染情的但是核能的目前還沒有相關的研究計畫所以我們事實上已經有機制雙方合作的機制已經有建立"},{"start":3741.525,"end":3768.488,"text":"好太好了過去沒有談到核能現在應該要談了啦為什麼呢環境部已經表態了啦這個考量國安應該保留核能我們現在有越來越多的部會開始說出真話我也非常感謝那我想環境部的這個部長帶電投靠那我想這個中研院也應該很理性核安會也應該很理性我們希望我們是不是就在核能上面有多一點讓台灣的能源韌性"},{"start":3772.045,"end":3798.011,"text":"我希望這個可以選擇當然越多越好特別如果是核安、核廢料公眾支持的情況下當然選擇是越多越好好啦 希望您再回去讀一下過去您的文章我們一起來follow您的先知我們一起來執行好不好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝主委好 謝謝葛如君、昭偉"},{"start":3799.916,"end":3802.659,"text":"主委請回我們接下來請陳秀邦委員謝謝主席請陳主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":3823.732,"end":3849.315,"text":"主委早首先先跟主委這邊來討論一下關於我們河岸會這邊預算遭煽動的部分根據河岸會這邊給本席的資料河岸會遭通案刪減的部分有國內的差旅費20%那媒體政策及業務宣導費也是高達60%那其中本席比較關心是關於荷普教育本席想要請教關於如果差旅費遭刪減"},{"start":3850.196,"end":3876.298,"text":"会不会影响到我们河安会的同仁到各地参与科展以及科普宣传是有影响的那如果会影响的话你们的规划跟你们有折衷的方法做法是什么我们就用网路或视讯等等方式来减少旅费支出那同仁去参与的部分呢如果没有旅费你们可以怎么做"},{"start":3879.482,"end":3901.975,"text":"就只能用網路上的這些相關的我們盡量想辦法在現有預算之內來達成我們的目標其實我覺得說核安會的工作除了說確保台灣的核能安全之外社會也給予我們核安會很高的教育的期待那我們也希望說核安會可以提供給民眾更多正確的核能知識所以這邊我也要請教一下核安會關於你們今年科普活動的規劃"},{"start":3906.557,"end":3919.711,"text":"在被這個隨意的煽動這些相當多的預算之後呢這很顯然好像就是刻意的要阻擋正確的核安知識的傳播那核安會這邊你們對今年科普活動你們的規劃是怎麼樣請我們的中衛組組長來"},{"start":3924.186,"end":3949.293,"text":"報告委員今年我們一樣有兩場的自辦的原子能科普展有一場已經在這個上禮拜六禮拜天在國立科教館已經辦理完成大概參與的民眾有八千多人我想就誠如委員所講的核安會是非常重視原子能科普教育但是當然因為拆旅費的刪減多少總是會有影響當然我們只好就盡力的節省費用"},{"start":3949.733,"end":3973.596,"text":"那第二場的科普展我們是規劃在下半年度在新北市辦理以上所以你們這兩就是今年只能辦兩場目前的規劃是這個樣子包括委員市就是我們自辦的科普展因為我們都是請同仁實際上到現場跟現場的民眾直接溝通所以我們會耗費我們比較多的人力以上"},{"start":3973.976,"end":4000.059,"text":"你謝謝核安會這邊很盡力的在我剛說的傳達正確的這些相關的核安知識給民眾我也希望你們可以再繼續努力在你們有限的這些經費跟預算的狀況之下還是要傳遞正確的這些核能相關的訊息那主委我再請教您之前有立委運用中研院的報告來表示說乾式儲存場還有空間所以根本不存在核廢料的後續處置問題是真的嗎"},{"start":4003.547,"end":4027.573,"text":"乾式儲存場目前我們是正在興建一些乾式儲存場我的意思是說我們按照標準的安全的核廢料處理高階的核廢料後續處置我們是先放乾式儲存場然後再來移到中期站儲存場最後必須移轉到最終處置設施是不是這樣子"},{"start":4029.599,"end":4052.392,"text":"那請問核廢料可以一直放在乾式儲存場嗎到一定程度以後一定要做下一步處理那麼核廢料的儲存就是包含了在後期的話包含中期的暫存以及最終儲置那麼我們已經有找到最終儲置的場址了嗎"},{"start":4056.647,"end":4084.157,"text":"還沒還沒對不對其實連美國現在也還沒有找到最終處置的場子那麼中期暫存以及最終處置的場子沒有選還沒有地方可以來設置的時候來興建的時候我們如何繼續使用核能如何繼續產生核廢料導致這樣子沒有辦法處理核廢料問題這麼就是這是社會的共識沒有辦法處理核廢料我們要如何繼續使用核電"},{"start":4085.057,"end":4105.635,"text":"主委您覺得目前我們高階核廢料是放在乾式儲存就是全世界都是這樣處理的目前這樣子處理但是我們最終的處置是不是還沒有辦法處理所以我們核廢料也不能一直只放在乾式儲存場"},{"start":4108.181,"end":4137.604,"text":"全世界趨勢是這樣並不是把高階核廢料直接埋在地下將來大概不會往這條路走大概會比較可能會經過再處理把高階核廢料移出來因為裡面還有很多其他的有用的材料可以繼續使用將來的方法大概是這樣把高階核廢料移除出來然後再經過高階核廢料"},{"start":4138.752,"end":4166.311,"text":"也經過各種高科技的處理這些處理方式現在還在研發之中譬如說用加速器把它撞擊之後變成低階核廢料或把高階核廢料放在Multi-Sole Reactor裡面讓它消除掉等等技術還在研發之中所以目前根據還沒有到最終要決定要怎麼處理的時候我們大概會跟世界大概相同方法來處理這方面的問題"},{"start":4167.165,"end":4195.015,"text":"那在這邊我以主委您的專業我再次的跟您確認就是我們的核廢料不能一直放在乾式儲存廠是吧所以我們也不能被斷章取義的訊息來誤導並不是有乾式儲存廠我們就可以繼續發電繼續產出核廢料中期的暫存以及最終的處置選址才是我們是不是繼續使用核電的關鍵您覺得是不是"},{"start":4197.577,"end":4198.86,"text":"最終廚師長遲早要有地方儲存這些核廢料"},{"start":4205.644,"end":4211.628,"text":"是的 我們要找到這個儲存場最終的儲值 還是要找到再來根據媒體的報導日本媒體報導說日本有民眾有高達31%的民眾認為應該要降低核電的佔比這個在目前的局勢這樣的聲音是很不一樣的意見那也表示說核能的發展其實最重要的其實就是民意的趨勢那台灣跟日本都有民眾對減少核電有更多的表態"},{"start":4233.664,"end":4243.179,"text":"所以說呢核能的發展除了民意基礎社會共識也要有能力來處理核廢料諸位您覺得這樣子的說法您是不是認同"},{"start":4245.724,"end":4269.865,"text":"是的那既然我們現在最終處置的場子沒有找到我們沒有辦法找到目前沒有辦法處理最末端那麼台灣其實就沒有本錢來繼續發展核電如果台灣的民眾對核電還有極高的疑慮我們也沒有持續發展核電的本錢主委您覺得呢我請陳署長代我回答一下好嗎好請回答"},{"start":4270.896,"end":4293.838,"text":"報告委員 國內目前的核廢料 低介部分都在電廠裡面儲存高介部分我們目前是走的是水質儲存 乾式儲存 將來要進行最終處置目前的狀況就是我們盡力來先做好乾式儲存的一個工作因為現在只能放在乾式儲存"},{"start":4294.839,"end":4295.801,"text":"將來會繼續來做最終處置所以經濟部才會去設專案辦公室來推這一塊"},{"start":4302.267,"end":4324.542,"text":"好那再來我跟您諸葛請教這幾年關於SMR就是小型模組化反應爐討論度很高那英國在2022年投資的包含AMR的相關六項的核技術研究那義大利也近期表示會重啟核能那其中也再度的提到小型模組化反應爐但是根據2024世界核能產業現況報告裡面有提到"},{"start":4329.025,"end":4335.37,"text":"SMR過度的炒作跟產業現實之間的差距持續的擴大而且有小型模組化反應爐的計畫持續的延遲或取消主委您認為目前國際間SMR的發展技術真的有一開始說的那麼好嗎目前國際間SMR的發展和安慧這邊是我們自己在研究還是有跟國外來攜手"},{"start":4354.553,"end":4371.385,"text":"据统计全世界有参与SMR研究的企业或研究单位大概有90几家最后能胜出的只是少数几家多数在竞争过程中会被淘汰"},{"start":4372.691,"end":4375.673,"text":"因為其實在投入之間他們也發現說這個成本非常的昂貴所以致使很多計畫會延遲或取消那本席這邊要強調的是說關於SMR它其實這樣子的反應爐它一樣會核廢掉的問題"},{"start":4388.323,"end":4391.145,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法處理核廢料那目前我們堆置在核電廠裡面的燃料棒移出來乾式儲存後我們沒有辦法做最終處理的話無論國際間如何吹捧SMR的好處但是所產生的核廢料一樣是沒有辦法處理我們還是沒有這樣的本錢來繼續發展核電"},{"start":4408.939,"end":4431.708,"text":"那這個部分呢 我們就在這邊 我們不要再關於討論這個部分我是希望說 國際間的趨勢我們還是要掌握我們不管說我們自己本身的核電 我們發展到怎樣的地步我們跟國際間的合作 跟我們自己本身關於核電的這些技術都要持續的發展 持續的了解 持續的掌握"},{"start":4433.655,"end":4458.593,"text":"是,我們跟國際像Idol International去年八月開始就有赴訪那中間也每三個月定期開一次會所以我們跟國際還有日本這個美國其他單位MIT都有合作赴訪的program在裡面隨時會follow這個進度國進最新核能技術的發展我們會明確來注意尤其是SMR方面相關的技術好謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝主席"},{"start":4461.704,"end":4467.787,"text":"好 謝謝沈秀寶委員主委請回好 我們接下來請劉淑冰委員有請陳主委有請陳主委您需要喝一杯水嗎您需要喝口水覺得體力還可以嗎好"},{"start":4494.636,"end":4515.946,"text":"好 陳主委好我們今天討論的是關於核安會的報告我當然也關心到目前核一核二核三的營運狀況還有是不是在除役當然已經有些在除役了所以特別講到的是說請看表大家看到這個表裡面可以看到核一核二這邊都已經進入到研議階段了他在18到19 21到23都已經進入到"},{"start":4523.61,"end":4541.795,"text":"和研議的這個狀況就是他現在目前是停役的那他研議點的話如果說是有可能的話應該推算到前5年的話就是13 14 16 18這個情況好那我們現在在看這個問題的時候就在於說當初可能就沒有什麼研議的需求那也沒關係我們繼續往下看"},{"start":4544.317,"end":4570.068,"text":"核三的部分就是去年已經出現了一號機是在去年就除役了核三的二號機是在今年的5月17號要除役但我現在詢問的是說如果是進入到非核家園的情況因為民進黨的政策是在非核家園那我們繼續往下看的時候非核家園它事實上特別是針對核廢料的處理當中的有幾個部分大家可以看到這個PPT裡面說說剛才前面的那位"},{"start":4573.309,"end":4597.41,"text":"行政官員還提到說高階是用水式的部分還有乾式的部分目前都儲存在我們的合一合二廠嘛對不對好那這個部分呢沒有問題可是那另外還要最後要有到所謂最高或是最遠的這樣子的就是永久的這個儲置廠嘛對不對可是事實上這些都目前真的並沒有像現在這個表彰這麼想要順利而且往下看"},{"start":4598.53,"end":4622.155,"text":"往下看的時候你就可以看到目前就出現到在合一以合一為例的時候呢它的乾式的這個儲存槽就是不夠這不夠這個原因然後呢還包括的是前面的部分呢用過的這個燃料池這個濕式的部分也是不夠的好那我們特別是想到因為你乾式不夠你在水式的部分呢就不能把它上去嘛這是對吧"},{"start":4623.175,"end":4645.647,"text":"那如果這樣的情況之下呢當然還有一個問題是最終儲存廠剛剛陳秀寶委員有提到的是它經濟部目前它是一個專案的辦公室但是這個部分就有很大的問題是請問一下全世界目前有哪一個國家進行了最終永久儲存廠的一個設置已經完成的有嗎好像有一個國家已經完成是荷蘭"},{"start":4647.341,"end":4651.623,"text":"全世界190幾個國家至少才只有一個國家芬蘭但是全世界有其他的幾十個國家都使用在核電對不對所以這個問題絕對不會是大問題只是如果你在前面的"},{"start":4667.049,"end":4686.461,"text":"你還是繼續找你的永久儲存廠但是你原來在高階的部分你在原來的乾式的部分你剛才說也是最重的部分就是應該儲存可是你現在遇到這個部分乾式儲存廠的部分在合一的內容當中我們可以看到你呢那你有沒有廠地呢有吧我們現在換下一頁"},{"start":4688.855,"end":4716.658,"text":"現在業裡面看到的是說我們特別以合一來看248.5公頃當中甘氏儲存潮的面積0.45相對比才0.18這他來講的話他需要的話呢合一場的話像6.3座的部分籃球場目前在以場區248.5公頃的時候還有很多的場地很區的做那為什麼沒有做有在做我知道但是問題是地方政府在砍是不是是這樣嗎"},{"start":4718.779,"end":4742.87,"text":"請回答報告委員有關台電公司合一廠室外乾室儲存部分它跟地方的液體已經消除最終核准就對了對 我們也已經完成熱測室就是已經完成兩組互相的裝載進行完熱測室現在正在審查它的運轉值"},{"start":4744.031,"end":4751.698,"text":"那這樣子看到表示說合一的情況之下乾式儲存廠的問題就沒有事實上是沒有問題只要待最後核准然後去處理就可以對不對"},{"start":4753.029,"end":4781.777,"text":"他另外還有一個二期的室內乾儲計劃是規劃要把所有的用過燃料全部搬出來目前還在 沒錯就是因為你乾式儲存好那濕式單元可以拿上來嘛那可是你看到核二這一部分那還包括核三的這些部分等等的照資料顯示出來事實上乾式儲存槽的問題事實上沒有問題空間沒有問題技術性只要現在有這個研議需求的話至少事實上不是研議需求如果非核家園要做的時候絕對不能把高階核廢料放在"},{"start":4783.278,"end":4795.393,"text":"這個水勢的這部分也不能放在乾勢的部分嘛對不對當然乾勢是水勢又更高 安全一點對不對是嘛 你都點頭了齁所以在這個情況之下是溝通的問題所以我現在繼續往下看的是在這裡"},{"start":4796.926,"end":4808.931,"text":"你可以往下一頁我們可以看到核安事務上面工作重點在這邊前面的話核安事務核子保防都沒有問題失重你都要管理可是最重要的你有負責溝通跟資訊公開那請問你們溝通程序如何我們繼續往下看你確定溝通是很重要的"},{"start":4815.074,"end":4818.518,"text":"那我們現在以最新到今年4月1號的資料顯示核電廠的廚藝安全管制的大試劑顯示說到2月26號的時候核能電廠的廚藝管制作業已經做了第20次的溝通會議那請問一下溝通的歷程是怎麼樣請你把最後的最新的第20次的溝通結果跟大家報告"},{"start":4835.932,"end":4852.912,"text":"跟委員說明,這次2月26號的溝通會議是和安會跟台電公司針對技術細節的部分,就是有些設備要營運維護保養這部分,就是為了燃料的安全這部分做技術的討論。"},{"start":4854.246,"end":4875.48,"text":"燃料的安全對 因為有些目前核一二廠用過的燃料池還是有燃料所以要維持燃料的安全所以針對這部分有跟台電公司做技術的討論所以你的燃料是指普遍還是指核一核二還是核三都有 都有對啊 那結果是怎麼樣所以這部分針對技術細節還在討論過程中"},{"start":4877.984,"end":4892.997,"text":"好,但是你們溝通是自己內部在溝通,而不是跟地方在溝通,跟縣市政府在溝通,是嗎?溝通有分很多種,這部分是針對台電跟河岸會。那你們請問一下,你過去有跟地方政府在做溝通嗎?"},{"start":4894.13,"end":4923.316,"text":"或地方的居民在做溝通嗎跟委員報告針對台電公司提出來的合一二三場的廚藝計畫那核安會在審查一開始的時候有跟召開地方說明會跟地方的鄉親做說明那也邀請地方的鄉親到那結果呢結果有沒有有溝沒有通是不是跟委員說明就是當地居民所提出來意見都會納入核安會的管制的那是支持還是反對"},{"start":4925.211,"end":4949.724,"text":"他們覺得這個安全是夠的事還是不夠當然他會提出他所以在地居民所關切的一些議題比如說工作權啊然後一些回饋金這部分當然也會關切到處理過程中的一些安全你想到的工作權還有回饋金事實上他是在研議之後才有可能發生吧如果他已經停止還有什麼機會發生呢"},{"start":4952.106,"end":4976.519,"text":"跟委員說明喔那在台電公司現行好那我現在因為我的時間快要已經大概就在不到一分鐘就結束了那我們繼續往後看齁這個地方就是在於依照和安會他本身監督執職的處分他應該去加強對於他應該去加強跟地方政府跟民意的這個溝通不要去推卸責任那尤其是要合意的研製到這個儲存到他現在還在剛才已經說有改變了"},{"start":4979.54,"end":5004.051,"text":"但是就是這一部分就是應該繼續再進行再繼續下來另外呢有環安環境保護的團體要提到說非核家園如果真的要落實的話核子事故緊急應變法跟核子反應器設施管制法跟核子損害賠償法所說的核安三法應該要去修法還是負責著核安維護那核安會不修法的理由是什麼"},{"start":5007.435,"end":5036.739,"text":"因為這是後面的發生事情的時候的一些保障最重要是這裡跟委員說明有關於環台所提出來核子反應器設施管制法這一部分它主要目的是說如果未來有新建核冷機組的時候要將地質的條件納入考量那現在核電使用就要回到三個原則就是核安核廢棄沒有你現在把核子損害賠償法你講到原來本來就核子損害賠償法這邊為什麼不訂不去修"},{"start":5039.39,"end":5058.542,"text":"報告委員 針對核子損害賠償法 目前我們有核子損害賠償法當然環團或是民間有一些聲音說我們要去精進過去在101年的時候 我們有在整個檢討因為整個時空環境的關係 目前這個並不是非常"},{"start":5060.003,"end":5085.017,"text":"破竊的法案 但是我們本來也就有核子損害檢查法所以你現在說沒有破竊的需要所以如果發生 是不是代表發生核子事故的風險事實上是蠻低的應該是可以這樣講 因為說沒有那破竊的需要嘛好 那這樣的情況再往下看我再稍微再給我一分不到30秒很快就結束所以看起來說如果這邊看起來是風險發生這麼低的情況之下那研議是不是有可能性"},{"start":5085.957,"end":5090.798,"text":"民眾黨上個禮拜我做了民意調查顯示出來是六七成以上的民意是覺得說在我們安全無虞的情況是可以研議的請您去尊重這樣的一個民意的需求當然是安全合格的情況這樣那最後一頁就是說我們當然希望核安會繼續再把我們的把關如果是有這種"},{"start":5107.602,"end":5109.123,"text":"好 謝謝劉淑冰委員 主委請回我們接下來請郭育晴委員"},{"start":5146.874,"end":5150.717,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請陳主委好,有請陳主委主委早安,辛苦囉,這個核電研議的問題還是要取決於安全安全安全,安全才是首要喔好,今天其實我不想要談這個核電的部分喔我來談另外一個話題,就是放射性物質的部分喔"},{"start":5172.073,"end":5187.803,"text":"那放射性物質的這個運送監控的一個部分其實我們發現光是運送規則大概已經有17年沒有修正了那我們大部分都只是聚焦在所謂的包裝標示或者是一些所謂的文件的一些"},{"start":5188.063,"end":5192.865,"text":"靜態的一個規範那但是呢在所謂的這個放射性物質他們在運送的過程當中有可能會因為失竊或者是因為事故的發生或者是因為損害或者是外洩的一個風險但是我們缺乏了所謂的這個即時監控跟通報的一個機制啦感覺是已經跟這個現代的這個所謂的這個外洩的一個風險其實已經有一點脫鉤"},{"start":5216.454,"end":5233.018,"text":"那根據這個國際原子能總署他們其實也特別的建議就是說所謂的高風險的放射源應該要建立這個即時的定位還有異常通報的一個機制但是目前為止我們看到台灣的部分就是我國的部分其實還是依賴這個紙本跟事後的一個稽查"},{"start":5235.859,"end":5247.01,"text":"那這個明顯其實已經留下了一些所謂的控管的一個空窗那我們不禁要擔心在沒有設置及時的監控跟輻射偵測的一個裝置如果真的當車輛遺失或者是發生交通事故或者是遭竊的時候我們的主管機關怎麼樣在第一時間當中可以掌握這個車"},{"start":5258.761,"end":5281.426,"text":"車禍或者是事故的位置或者是這個放射源的這個劑量它到底外洩的一個程度這個部分我們怎麼來做修補謝謝委員確實追蹤這個輻射源是很重要的工作過去原輪會跟現在的河岸會"},{"start":5284.668,"end":5298.122,"text":"觉得这方面呢是需要补强的所以我们目前其实今年已经开始导入高风险社员的监控技术就随时随地能够掌控"},{"start":5301.062,"end":5308.691,"text":"高風險輻射源的位置已經確定了嗎現在已經正在進行中什麼時候你所謂的高風險控管的機制這個機制比較具體的一個說法或者比較具體的一個做法是什麼這點我請主長跟大家講細節"},{"start":5322.324,"end":5337.954,"text":"報告委員那我們現在是一個雙軌的一個概念就是剛剛陳如委員所說的在法規的一個修法上我們現在在持續的在推動那在輔導業者的一個法尊上我們就是現在已經開始去做一些輔導的計畫我們是用"},{"start":5340.335,"end":5367.85,"text":"現行的GPS的一個車用的GPS來去做這個運送過程中的追蹤那至於我們現在這是強制性的呢還是說輔導現在只是輔導對對對先讓他們在這一塊未來的配套方案可以執行的上來那目前輔導的這個期程是從什麼時候開始什麼時候要輔導完畢什麼時候要有一些所謂的規範跟比較強制性的一個強制性他們要來做這樣子的一個"},{"start":5369.35,"end":5388.498,"text":"監測的一個設備的工作目前的一個輔導我們是都目前是並沒有強制但是也沒有一旦上線了我們目前是打算不會退場但是因為有一些即時會有收到各自業者各自的所以我們在這部分我們就是會促進修法的一個授權因為我剛剛有提到"},{"start":5393.92,"end":5405.129,"text":"因為我剛剛有提到關於這個運送的規則已經大概將近有十幾年沒修了大概將近有十七年沒修了那這個部分其實我們是不是也要來同步的更新跟修正"},{"start":5406.005,"end":5423.296,"text":"對 我們現在也在著手在探討這個運送規則所以在這部分我們也會來去辦理中好 那福島的這個盤點就是你們福島的一個對象跟整個所有的一些數量應該要盤點的這些數量其實到時候可以再提供給我辦公室嗎好 可以"},{"start":5424.096,"end":5447.081,"text":"那另外呢我想要再問就是關於所謂的這個化學品跟高壓氣體的一個運送已經納入所謂的這個GPS的追蹤的系統而且建立了相關的這個資訊平台但是呢道路運輸管理規則當中也要求所謂的高壓氣體的運具應該要加定位的這個裝置但是呢這個放射性的物質沒有加定時及時的一個追蹤"},{"start":5448.782,"end":5470.724,"text":"有聽出來嗎就是我剛剛講的放射性的物質是沒有加的但是我們講到剛剛化學品跟高壓氣體它是有GPS的追蹤但是剛剛講放射性的物質其實沒有這個追蹤我想要問一下何安慧放射性的物質同樣具有重大的一個公共的危險為什麼沒有強制施行而且沒有追蹤"},{"start":5473.267,"end":5484.812,"text":"這方面是需要加強的部分而且放射性物質如果萬一遺失的話是會造成社會的恐慌的那這個部分有相關的一些規劃嗎我們現在已經規劃要做這方面的事情所有放射性物質運送"},{"start":5490.555,"end":5500.408,"text":"任何時候我們都要知道他在哪個地方如果萬一遺失的話我們有辦法追蹤到他遺失的地點這是我們規劃的目標現在是規劃中還是有規劃的期程嗎這個部分"},{"start":5507.296,"end":5528.936,"text":"報告委員因為放射性物質它還有一個特性就是它有一個輻射所以輻射跟那個一些追蹤器的這一些的干擾或者是損傷我們因為它必須要透過一些技術研發所以我們現在剛剛主委講的是我們在規劃中是我們已經在研發中一旦研發上OK了我們就會直接的一個有沒有一個預期的時間"},{"start":5530.457,"end":5547.344,"text":"這邊我們有目前有一個計畫在做研發那目前我們希望是在這兩三年內能夠有所技術完整的一個突破然後我們就可以來去推動這一塊好那再來我要提到就是這個油方法其實我們從92年制定到現在其實也沒有修訂這個比剛剛的這個"},{"start":5549.225,"end":5560.754,"text":"運輸的管制這個更久這個時間真的更久那我想這個制度已經大概空窗超過10年那我想這個部分這麼重要的一個措施沒有納入修法這個部分我們怎麼來做修補"},{"start":5565.86,"end":5580.315,"text":"有關於服防法的這一塊我們持續辦理中那因為目前跟委員報告目前的一個進度就是我們因為我們核能安全委員會是委員制所以我們已經通過就是一些修法的一個草案已經通過但是因為委員過程中也有一些關切"},{"start":5581.936,"end":5606.576,"text":"因為去年其實這個代理主委已經有講了這個修法草案其實已經完成但是我們到現在為止其實還沒有看到他送進立法院啊這個部分其實我辦公室也在追這個部分對那大概什麼時候我們可以看得到現在整個還是在滾動還要送行政院這邊來審議一審議完成後我們就會送到送到那個立法院這邊來好如果有更進一步的進程再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":5609.226,"end":5616.409,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝郭宇晴委員主委請回那我們接下來請葉元之委員主席 我們請主委 謝謝好 又請陳主委"},{"start":5639.878,"end":5668.755,"text":"主委好主委那個總統賴清德他在接見前兩天在接見環保團體的時候他有講說針對未來新的先進的核能技術保持開放的態度不過他有強調任何政策變更都必須滿足核安核廢社會共識三個前提那這三個前提實際上又以前面兩個很重要為什麼因為第三個前提社會共識是根據到底有沒有核安還有核廢料能不能處理來做決定"},{"start":5669.758,"end":5678.15,"text":"所以核安會的責任很重大第一個要跟社會大眾確保說核能是安全的第二個也要想辦法來處理核廢啦"},{"start":5679.261,"end":5704.948,"text":"好,然後再來就是我們也可以發現說最近有非常多的過去反對核能的一些社會的一些先進都開始轉變了就像我們現在也頗為被賴總統器重的童子賢他也不斷地在強調就是說未來能源的組合的黃金比例應該是三成綠能、三成核能跟四成火力發電"},{"start":5705.968,"end":5728.482,"text":"那當然這是為什麼呢這就是大家很關心能源的穩定的供給以及就是非碳家園所以才會對核能抱有那麼大的期望想問一下主委因為主委本身也是核能專家啦你也是這方面的博士嘛到底對於核能的安全的部分你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":5731.746,"end":5734.969,"text":"報告委員河安會監管下的核電廠"},{"start":5736.963,"end":5762.255,"text":"是必須合乎安全要求的所以是安全的嗎 核能現在是安全的一定是安全的 核能是安全的這是核安會的職責所以核能是安全的嗎 是嗎要讓安全一旦核安會認為運轉中核電廠有安全疑慮核安會一定會要求核電廠停機檢查這點是毫無模糊的餘地謝謝主委 那主委的意思是說"},{"start":5763.476,"end":5780.423,"text":"我現在聽你的講法啦感覺核能是安全的啦因為如果核能有安全疑慮你就會要求他停機檢查嘛現在都沒有要求他停機檢查嘛所以目前來講感覺上您是覺得核能是安全那接下來我來問一下核廢喔因為今天"},{"start":5782.384,"end":5802.222,"text":"賴總統講說對於先進的核能技術保持核能開放態度這應該指的是現在大家在看看是不是能夠接受那個SMR就是小型模組化的反應毒是這個意思嗎小型模組化它有很多不同的設計有些設計它核廢料會比"},{"start":5807.468,"end":5826.197,"text":"傳統核電廠多一些有些會差不多有些會少很多不同的設計有不同的所以我們未來可能會接受的是哪一種是會核廢料會多很多的還是會少很多的還是差不多的這還需要評估因為評估要引進哪一種"},{"start":5828.391,"end":5839.196,"text":"是Module Reactor 是很複雜的過程因為你剛剛有提到說SMR有的它會造成更多的核廢料"},{"start":5841.038,"end":5860.361,"text":"那如果以這個大家對於核廢料的恐懼來講的話這種會造成比較多的核廢料就不太可能引進嘛引進的應該是會少很多的嘛理論上是這樣嘛否則不可能說大家在這邊一直罵核廢料結果我們政府說我們要採用我們要引進SM嘛結果我們引進一個會造成更多核廢料的來這不太合理嘛"},{"start":5860.982,"end":5884.095,"text":"所以我聽起來感覺上應該是會這個朝向引進比較少核廢料的但無論如何它就是有核廢料所以我們核廢料的問題還是要解決甚至於連我們現在核二核三要除液的過程當中也都會衍生核廢料所以我接下來我就想要問一下主委我們現在核廢料的處理到底是怎麼樣我是有看到一個新聞說"},{"start":5885.956,"end":5910.731,"text":"現在經濟部 當然這是經濟部的事情經濟部說現在推動高階核廢料選址的一個辦公室已經成立了然後也找了這個負責人 負責人是一個教授他的工作就是要跟社會做溝通感覺上好像這個已經選好了所以要開始要跟社會溝通了那我們來看一下核廢料的進程等一下請主委來說明一下 這個是之前"},{"start":5912.028,"end":5927.735,"text":"核安會所訂出來核廢料處理的進程我們今年是2025年嘛所以我們是應該是還在第二階段第二階段就是後子長子的評選與核定階段然後我們到2028年必須要完成後子選子的調查跟評估"},{"start":5928.695,"end":5954.036,"text":"然後還有要建立厚紙長紙的功能安全評估技術那請問一下因為剩3年2028年就要完成那個厚紙長紙的這個調查跟評估那主委我們現在有哪一些長紙是作為那個最終處置場核能 核廢的最終處置場還沒有做最後決定還沒有最後決定因為已經要社會溝通了嘛所以現在是選哪幾個地方準備要跟社會溝通"},{"start":5955.792,"end":5984.72,"text":"這點請組長回答報告委員是那個有關這個高放處置計畫部分那目前技術的研發部分我們其實行會都要求台電公司要跟上國際腳步關於選址的部分目前台電公司是沒有進度所以經濟部他設置這個專案辦公室那這專案辦公室的工作除了嚴定高放處置計畫的選址法案以外他也要"},{"start":5985.18,"end":6012.875,"text":"兼做高低放最終處置選址作業跟必要的地址調查以及社會溝通這是他整個辦公室的一個成立設置所以你的意思是說到目前為止還沒有還沒有候選的場址還沒有一個都沒有還沒有一個都沒有還沒有 對那他現在成立的這個辦公室負責人是一個他的專長是在做社會溝通但你連那個前面的場址都沒有你要怎麼讓他去做社會溝通"},{"start":6013.94,"end":6029.868,"text":"他們向經濟部向透過成立那個原定了選址條例的法案然後依序來做選址的工作那你這樣有信心2028年可以達到你們原本規劃的進程嗎"},{"start":6033.587,"end":6058.873,"text":"呃我這個這個進程恐怕到時候台電公司是難以達成難以達成那會延後多久呃這個要看呃就是整個整個呃那個法案齁通過後他設定的他在這裡面都沒有角色嗎呃我們其實是每年都會來進行呃台電公司組織計畫的一個呃對因為那個我為什麼會在這邊問因為我們剛剛這樣"},{"start":6061.314,"end":6082.014,"text":"第一個就算我們要引進SMR它也是會有核廢料第二個我們現有的核能機組就算除以也會有核廢料所以核廢料就是要處理現在不是說好像停核二核三停機之後就已經廢了家園就不用處理核廢料不是就是要處理這個事情就是要處理那所以我們當然就是要按照原本規劃的進程去走嘛"},{"start":6082.654,"end":6099.879,"text":"那我看到經濟部也有動作了嘛所以才來問結果聽你們的說法是說即便是成立這個辦公室感覺好像還是跟我們原本規劃的進度落差很大那大家就慢慢拖就好了啊那如果慢慢拖的情況之下那核廢的問題一直沒有辦法給社會大眾一個交代啊"},{"start":6100.322,"end":6124.414,"text":"那賴總統講的要處理核廢社會有共識這就是空話啦那大家還是會疑慮說能源到底能不能穩定地供給嘛這都是環環相扣的嘛所以我覺得這個核廢的部分不知道主委因為您是這方面專家啦齁您加入核安會之後應該是可以給我們核廢的處理帶來一個專業的一股力量啦能不能push台電或者是核安會可以趕快處理"},{"start":6131.899,"end":6148.25,"text":"科技一直在進步,處理高階核廢料的技術也一直在進步而且將來很有可能把高階核廢料轉換為低階核廢料一旦目的達到的話,核廢料的處理就會簡單得多"},{"start":6151.81,"end":6164.297,"text":"我最後一分鐘我再問一個問題因為3月6號那時候屏東河山場發生火災那天是11月18號的時候發現有明火11月23號的時候那時候還通報場內的消防員來處理那河安會是11點35分才接貨通報然後到了12點36分的時候才上網公告"},{"start":6175.143,"end":6200.735,"text":"那後來因為這個事情有冒出煙啊所以當時屏東有些民意代表也受不了直接就沖河山場了就到底發生什麼事情那環環會我不知道說在這個事情後來後來這個檢討裡面呢有一點我們很快看一下他說以後無論火勢大小都要先通報再滅火那這個是不是很怪啊你不滅火那你為什麼要先通報再滅火"},{"start":6203.669,"end":6217.104,"text":"好 跟委員說明了 針對這一件而且第二個就是說你們通報的時間會不會太慢了你看11點18分那時候火就出來了那大家都很害怕然後一直到12點36分才上網公告讓社會大眾知道發生什麼事情"},{"start":6218.468,"end":6232.607,"text":"會不會太慢了B的那個當地的證明代表都衝到河山場去了然後第三個問題啦就是說其實我們後來看你們事後的報告覺得河山場即便發生火災其實還是相對來說算安全的嘛"},{"start":6233.348,"end":6255.809,"text":"對不對 它有一些防火措施應該也是算安全的對不對 請簡單說明一下跟委員說明喔 那在現場發生火災的時候當然第一線工作人員會先撲滅火災 然後進行後續的通報那核安會的視察同仁 接獲訊息的時候要現場了解它的狀況 也要了解機組的狀況確認說火災沒有對兩部機組的運作安全"},{"start":6259.272,"end":6288.351,"text":"那核安會整理所有資訊之後在12點36分然後會上最新消息然後提供給民眾知的一些訊息那針對委員剛才所提到的台電公司所提出來先通報再滅火這部分事實上核安會在檢視台電公司的一些作為我們也有發現到那後續我們會請台電公司去請一些消防單位來確認整個的程序然後建立適當的程序以上說明好 謝謝"},{"start":6290.693,"end":6297.075,"text":"好謝謝葉雲芝委員主委請回我們接下來請羅廷偉委員好謝謝趙偉有請我們陳主委好有請陳主委"},{"start":6321.377,"end":6345.872,"text":"主委好委員好主委我想跟您請問一下你們的解凍案什麼時候要送來立法院已經送了吧已經送了都已經送了那個院長前天才宣布要解凍全部送解凍的報告這麼快我們一直在準備"},{"start":6348.473,"end":6359.489,"text":"對不起您講什麼我們一直都在準備一直都在準備好那在這之前想跟你請問一下有沒有之前有收到所謂行政院有說只是要暫緩送"},{"start":6360.97,"end":6383.461,"text":"我沒有聽到這個消息沒有我想針對預算的解凍卓院長前天才表示並非是行政院有任何的要求而是每個部會有任何都有不同的狀況請問主委各部會有不同狀況那請問河岸會有沒有什麼狀況有沒有遇到什麼具體的困難首先我們的這個收集預算執行資料有個狀況"},{"start":6388.908,"end":6410.941,"text":"我們一開始我們主要的馬上的感覺就是我們旅費被砍了很多很多要到現場視察或是等等都沒辦法做要現場視察或突襲檢查之類解凍的藥件寫說要突襲檢查"},{"start":6421.041,"end":6444.882,"text":"主委您怎麼好像完全狀況外因為你剛剛說突襲檢查我是說有不預警視察我們河南會常常對一些廠商有做不預警視察很好啊這樣這看起來是民眾喜歡的一個概念可是這樣我們才可以減少的話這方面的視察就必須要減少"},{"start":6446.417,"end":6475.734,"text":"不好意思您講這句話我聽不太清楚如果我們像是差旅費被砍了之後我們這方面的經費減少必須要減少這方面的不預警視察對不起因為您的口音有時候聽不太清楚不好意思那您說差旅費被刪除所以不預警視察造成你的困難你沒辦法這麼多的不預警視察是這樣子嗎"},{"start":6476.496,"end":6477.947,"text":"這是其中一個因素"},{"start":6478.67,"end":6506.266,"text":"其中一個因素好沒關係我看你還有什麼具體的困難都請提出沒關係還有呢是跟委員報告一下我們其實剛剛主委提到的是我們在通山的部分因為差旅費有刪減不能留用所以造成我們一些視察業務的影響但是我們還是會在預算範圍之內做到我們荷蘭管制應該執行的業務我想有多少錢做多少事是那不預警視察跟預警視察"},{"start":6507.571,"end":6530.401,"text":"都跟差旅費我覺得沒有多大的關係啦難道預警視察就沒有差旅費的問題不預警視察就有差旅費的問題應該不是啦但是我想民眾的多半都希望是不要有所準備去了解第一線的狀況那你是說你的不預警視察是成為解凍的主要之一的條件嗎"},{"start":6532.155,"end":6554.886,"text":"再跟委員說明我們的解凍案在114年總共九項凍結案那其中有一項專案報告是要針對預算執行資料來做一些蒐集那我們其他解凍案也有很多在委員會委員關切的議題所以其實這段時間我們都在整理這些資料所以我們在整理完畢之後在昨天發文送來大院那也請委員支持我們的預算解凍"},{"start":6556.226,"end":6583.881,"text":"只要前提在這個部分上如果是真的為我們的核安來努力我想大家一定會支持所有的這些相關的一個手段都是希望核安會能夠更加督促不管是我們的核能議題之外以及核能相關安全那相信剛剛也有委員有提到這個河山火災的案子大家都一定會很關注啊嚇死啊所以這也都是核安必須要加緊去處理的一個部分"},{"start":6584.261,"end":6610.018,"text":"但是我想先來問賴清德總統啊之前說新核能採開放的一個態度因為他4月22有接見這個環保團體拋出行政團隊一貫的立場就是對未來新的先進的核能技術保持開放的一個態度任何的政策變更都必須滿足核安核廢社會共識三個主要的前提才能夠進行那想請問一下"},{"start":6611.67,"end":6630.346,"text":"我們現在是行政團隊的議員,請問你們所謂的新核能具體是指哪些技術呢?主要是指的是small module reactor,小型模組化反應器核融合也是未來,模組化的小型反應爐,那有沒有具體的時間表?"},{"start":6636.021,"end":6654.316,"text":"或者是有沒有接下來有一個進度因為我知道世界的趨勢在這邊但是我們有沒有去追我們現在國務院院有已經有一部分研究計畫是在裡面然後我們現在有個比較長期的研究計畫之前國務院院長高院長國務院院長是是請說"},{"start":6656.058,"end":6668.629,"text":"SMR計畫今年會離總共補助大概2300萬做相關的研究那明年主委來了以後還加碼加碼1800萬大概有3500萬加倍今年2300萬 明年5800萬沒有 加碼1800萬1800萬 對不起 因為您麥克風靠近一點加碼1800萬這個國際上應該2030年左右"},{"start":6681.46,"end":6702.558,"text":"才會比較能夠穩定對SMR國際上的SMR有商品化的產品大約在五年以後會有商品化的產品出來可以大量生產所以我們希望有一個大型比較具規模的研究計畫最近跟國科會也前兩個禮拜做過報告希望能夠具體的研究三種新的"},{"start":6703.178,"end":6722.797,"text":"當然你有這樣子的一個具體的期程預計沒有叫你保證那對於這樣子的新核能的一個研究所編列的預算我想不會有任何的立委會去有所疑議甚至去阻擋所以兩千三跟一千八嘛今年兩千三嘛明年再加一千八我剛剛聽到五千八"},{"start":6727.742,"end":6742.518,"text":"核安是我們最重要的一個考量所以剛剛有許多立委對於這個核三的一個火災案大家都非常的關切相信現階段是沒有什麼太大的問題對吧對核安方面並沒有造成影響"},{"start":6742.998,"end":6770.996,"text":"好 但是我們要知道 縣府獲報的時候是大概晚7分鐘那原因是廠方自行滅火未通報所以我想問一下 本事件通報的原因是什麼未來如何確保第一時間同步的通報地方政府 民代 居民還是自行滅火是你們本身就要做的一個SOP最重要的一環所以你們滅完火才會通報"},{"start":6772.557,"end":6790.354,"text":"也請高組長回答這個問題是請說跟委員說明當天是縣長工作人員在進行切割然後高溫的火花噴濺到冷卻水塔裡面那縣長有工作人員也準備一些滅火器那發現有一些火星的時候"},{"start":6791.235,"end":6809.754,"text":"第一線工作人員會先行滅火另外會通報廠內本身就有消防隊通報廠內消防隊前去滅火同時台電公司和三廠也去通報地方政府因為他們彼此之間有一個聯繫的溝通管道"},{"start":6811.236,"end":6830.271,"text":"看起來是準備很完善可是為什麼會說縣府貨報還晚7分鐘就台電公司所提出來資訊顯示是因為河山廠要通報的同仁當天應該是出差所以訊息可能有點耽誤出差沒有職務代理人"},{"start":6831.011,"end":6856.425,"text":"所以他後續的檢討就是會增加廠長去跟好來那這樣子既然你說到這就是重點那是不是對於任何的一個這樣子的一個緊急事件對外通報的SOP流程是不是可以擬定好一個確切的方案以後讓我們知道一下這部分應該沒困難吧跟委員說明這部分我們會裡面已經要求台電公司針對跟地方這部分或者是跟會裡面的通報"},{"start":6859.451,"end":6884.01,"text":"我們也希望了解像你剛剛說的嘛你們自己有所謂的消防隊你們有一組人馬正在滅火有一組人馬負責通報這些東西能不能做出一個SOP然後來讓本委會所有委員知道一下那我想這個部分我們希望能夠了解再來卓院長有說要查明事故的原因深切追究那絕不會寬待但是目前有沒有相關人員受到懲處"},{"start":6885.815,"end":6908.245,"text":"跟委員說明這屬於台電公司內部的管理這部分所以可能台電所以要問台電那你們不會去詢問他一下因為屬於他內部的行政管理好那但是SOP這個部分我想你們應該責無旁貸作為一個和安的主要主管機關應該是幫忙協助吧這可以嗎可以好那會後希望拿到這個資料好是謝謝好謝謝謝謝羅廷偉委員主委請回"},{"start":6915.623,"end":6917.804,"text":"好 我們接下來請張雅玲委員謝謝主席 我們有請主委好 有請主委"},{"start":6939.946,"end":6960.162,"text":"主委好 上個禮拜五啊 其實院會通過了一個公投案就是要求說您是否同意在這個河山呢經過整體安全評估之後呢 恢復繼續運轉那最後呢 在這個藍白的聯手之下呢其實已經進負二讀囉 要交付協商那在整個關係文案你們可以看到 他其實有去講這個"},{"start":6961.423,"end":6978.82,"text":"在這個整體安全評估後,所以聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全那我想請教主委,就您的專業我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全,要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程報告委員,我們現在核電廠發指導是40年"},{"start":6985.545,"end":7010.794,"text":"40年前當初核發執照的時候是根據使用40年的標準來核發的但是我們現在如果要繼續的話現在過去這個40年之後呢當初是沒有評估所以如果要延長使用期限的話是需要評估的那我現在的問題是說我們這個安全的一個評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程是的我們有非常嚴謹的流程"},{"start":7012.715,"end":7025.106,"text":"但我記得我上次問您說這個時間要花多久好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準對不對沒有辦法說得準是要花時間的要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛對不對現在都在一個不確定的狀況我自己也會覺得這個問題這個公投的題目"},{"start":7029.744,"end":7052.761,"text":"這種條件式問法很像說如果我今天中樂透我就要去環遊世界問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透嘛也不可能也不保證我一定會中嘛所以這樣子的我們這樣子的條件式的公投很像在許一個願望但是真的會實現嗎因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說的算嘛它就是有個禁令的流程跟國際的標準它必須要經過非常非常多的時間"},{"start":7053.922,"end":7075.131,"text":"才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛對不對有可能的嘛對不對公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利不是做白日夢的舞台所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗"},{"start":7077.552,"end":7092.731,"text":"還有核廢料最終主持長的一個實質問題那我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想那同時我也比較了一下各國針對核電公投的一些題目"},{"start":7094.266,"end":7106.23,"text":"那像這個是左邊是瑞士或是義大利其實他們都是在講說針對於這個能源的一個法案大家的一個想法到底是什麼其實沒有去涉及到核電廠是否研議這麼專業的一個問題所以"},{"start":7110.311,"end":7138.351,"text":"在我們現在其實河山公投現在已經交付協商可是大家不要忘記我們3月份其實也針對當時這個河管法的說法已經送出委員會了那接下來藍白要做的到底是這個研議的討論呢要以公投為主還是以立法院的程序為主這麼混亂的討論方式沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論"},{"start":7139.452,"end":7166.33,"text":"那如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力那誰要來負責人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全我覺得這是非常危險的也是非常不負責任的甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕我們科學檢驗讓科學檢驗承受一個壓力這都是有可能的所以我認為這是一個非常不負責任的態度"},{"start":7168.055,"end":7181.133,"text":"那接下來我也想要請教就是有關於這個火災的通報時間我其實後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情你們場內有接貨通知然後後來好像是屏東的消防局也有跟河山長確認情況"},{"start":7183.775,"end":7209.081,"text":"那時間點其實總共大概發生是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了這個火勢但是呢這整個的問題在於是說火勢都撲滅了當時因為我們所有的行政主管都在開會所以我們到12點半才通報了我們各機關可是現場已經濃煙嘛所以居民都不知道發生了什麼事情就是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件"},{"start":7210.33,"end":7237.722,"text":"所以我想問雖然合規但是通報時間是否太晚因為這造成你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情外部完全不了解那我看一下現在動力用的核子反應器設施應立即通報的形式及通報時限我們現在其實是有兩種就是說一小時內跟兩小時內但是這是2004年訂的已經過了20年了我們有沒有修正的必要呢我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢"},{"start":7238.924,"end":7241.772,"text":"主委您的想法這點請高組長回答好不好剛才說明了"},{"start":7243.737,"end":7271.169,"text":"那委員提供這個表格是針對安全部分有影響的部分那當天是我們在11點35分有跟河山廠做聯繫那剛才所提出來那個書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來那在整個過程中會裡面的駐場視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認對我現在的問題是說在2004年訂的這樣子的規定世界上還是都沒有做任何的修正嗎這個通報的方式"},{"start":7273.694,"end":7296.543,"text":"呃 基本上都是按照這個參考國外定所以我們有實施再修正嗎?因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年到現在是沒有修正的這過了20年都還發生了福島事件我們有做任何的修正嗎?福島事件是另外一個層次是京道核子事故這個是沒有構成我的意思是說在這個事件之後我們全世界有沒有針對這個通報實現有相關的修正?有嗎?"},{"start":7301.623,"end":7322.221,"text":"目前根據我所了解是沒有我們可以再確認請你們再確認好不好那再來就是說大家也有在講到就是說我們現在的這些公告內容其實並沒有像並沒有非常非常的清楚那我自己找了一下日本的一個版本它其實是把事件發生的時間時時的更新各設施的狀況可是相對於我們的"},{"start":7324.603,"end":7338.526,"text":"內容其實就非常的簡單那我們是不是有可能參考日本的這個標準呢跟這個格式呢再去把我們的公告裡面寫得更清楚因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的一個擔心的這部分是有可能的嗎"},{"start":7341.068,"end":7355.78,"text":"跟委員說明了,事實上我們都有看日本發布訊息事實上我們大部分都有比對過事實上要提供的資訊都一樣,就是時間、地點可是他這邊有講到各施施的狀況所以我們會針對兩部機組的狀況針對機組的狀況沒有影響,我們就直接這樣講"},{"start":7368.271,"end":7389.488,"text":"好 那沒關係 那我想就是在事件發生時間以及它現在更新的時間點上面我們是不是可以在旁邊做個加注呢這部分我尊重你們的專業啦只是我覺得它這樣子的呈現方式可能是大家比較一目了然的方式啦比較清楚好 那再來下一個問題就是說因為我們其實都有做很多的兵推情境喔那我們現在是有火災的版本嗎我們現在有嗎"},{"start":7395.912,"end":7419.51,"text":"我們現在有是不是那是這次剛好沒有因為我看這幾年的演習都沒有火災跟委員報告有我們每年火災基本上都是閉演的項目閉演習的項目是嗎所以這個是另外就是針對一些特殊的情境是嗎可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了是的OK好那謝謝那再來最後一個問題喔"},{"start":7421.365,"end":7437.99,"text":"是說去年的時候我有質詢是說因為其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常非常重要嘛那我也非常感謝就是和安會呢其實就找了許多的兒少團體一起來做討論看如何把這個文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂"},{"start":7438.67,"end":7462.285,"text":"那其實我從這些團體的回饋也都覺得他們對於核安會的現在的做法也都保持一個肯定那我現在就想要了解在接下來的進度就是輻射安全校安包目前我知道你們已經要選定了幾個國中北中南的幾個國中小的老師一起來研討這個校安包要怎麼做那我想問一下我們有沒有一個預定的時程呢"},{"start":7465.243,"end":7487.003,"text":"跟委員報告這個因為其實針對這個國中小的這個教案其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的這個學校在做溝通那我們後續原則上還是會參考上次跟這個這個一些學者專家提供的這些意見那我們目前因為"},{"start":7487.904,"end":7511.496,"text":"各地方政府也有在推啦所以事實上我們針對這一塊原則上是在協助地方政府用他們的比較接地氣的方式因為事實上每個區域他針對的這一些他有他的特殊的風情或者學校是不一樣所以我們是目前的做法是配合他們來調整來修正來協助他們做這一塊"},{"start":7512.239,"end":7528.132,"text":"所以我們目前因為我聽到的說法是說你們現在是跟基隆屏東還有新北的地方政府一起合作嘛等到我輻射教安包的時候會再請專家學者來給意見嗎但是你現在我現在就是在問什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段可以請專家學者來給意見啊"},{"start":7529.109,"end":7551.101,"text":"目前我們倒是沒有把這個因為我們還要跟地方政府討論出來什麼樣所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定期程可是沒有訂定一個期程的話大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們工作室下我們會在因為每年都會針對這個項目會做一個檢討其實我們會來把這個我們會依照委員的建議我們把它拉到"},{"start":7551.201,"end":7569.996,"text":"對 但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛那這樣子好不好你可以跟地方政府討論一下預估的一個時間這樣子我們才可以知道說我們是不是在今年可以完成這件事情那這個詳細的如果你們討論完這個時間大概什麼時候可以給我呢大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論好 我們看看我們是不是"},{"start":7572.472,"end":7584.58,"text":"多久的時間可以討論我們盡快我們只是初步討論而已啊討論一個時間點對啊那我總是要追你的進度嘛那你總是要勾個時間吧是好好好謝謝啊謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員主委請回"},{"start":7606.069,"end":7611.453,"text":"好 那我們有請易經委員好 謝謝 謝謝主席有請陳主委主委早委員好"},{"start":7623.604,"end":7641.254,"text":"上個禮拜五藍白兩黨聯手將重啟核三這個公投案進夫二讀那這個提案其實不僅完全不科學不理性不務實那而且還滿滿的惡意指向了屏東人"},{"start":7642.555,"end":7660.034,"text":"罔顧在地居民生命財產安全周村民縣長發文痛批河山廠運轉至今40年5月17日即將完全除以正式走向歷史屏東人長期承擔風險"},{"start":7661.796,"end":7683.326,"text":"終於碰到這一刻 在野黨卻完全不尊重屏東人以粗獵的過程提出不負責任的公投 令人痛心至極我想本席也要再次強調不要讓今天的決定 成為明天的困境依照核管法第六條的規定核電廠的機組本來就應該在運轉"},{"start":7688.275,"end":7709.791,"text":"實現這個戒制前重新進行安全評估的作業否則就得依法停止運轉那並著手處役的這個作業所以它各項在法規裡明定的時間就是所謂的運轉的年限這個 換照申請的法令期間那這些"},{"start":7710.552,"end":7735.433,"text":"無非就是為了所謂核電廠的安全來做考量那現在藍白這群荒謬的政客竟然用這種專業來扭曲政治來扭曲專業那無視於這些所謂這些時間這些時限所代表的安全的意義所以我想請教主委是說作為核能安全最高機關核安會的你"},{"start":7736.454,"end":7745.027,"text":"是否同意這個法律中依法明文的年限的換照的期限就是基於他的安全考量"},{"start":7746.88,"end":7770.936,"text":"主委提案是委員的權利我是問你說這個法規規定有個安全的年限這個年限是不是就是安全的考量為什麼要定40年為什麼要定所謂的如果你要申請研議你要有"},{"start":7772.284,"end":7796.462,"text":"你的辦法是定5至15年前要來提出那為什麼要有這些年限是不是安全的考量是的是嘛 對不對所以等於是你如果完全不按照這個年限來走特別是為什麼一個核電廠要定40年要除役是不是就是安全所以超過了40年是不是就有嚴重安全的疑慮超過40年的話如果"},{"start":7801.246,"end":7807.532,"text":"要研議的話必須重新評估所以我們說到安全賴總統在全社會防衛任性委員會的成立跟相關的演練下關鍵基礎設施的防護就變成相當重要的一個課題"},{"start":7820.564,"end":7835.63,"text":"那我想核電廠的安全的管制應該也要在留意各式各樣的威脅尤其我們如何從所謂的災害中來渡過威脅並且恢復它的正常運作我想我們面對像現在烏俄戰爭無情的戰火下烏克蘭的"},{"start":7840.892,"end":7866.557,"text":"砸菠蘿熱的核電廠它就反覆遭到這個炮火的攻擊那電力就會反覆地中斷那我們知道說核安會跟台電你們平常就有在辦理因應這些突發狀況或者是軍事衝突的核安演習所以我想提醒核安會的是說假設災害先行發生軍事衝突才過來"},{"start":7869.437,"end":7885.507,"text":"那你們到底在應變上是不是會增加難度那你是不是有想過這樣的可能的發生的順序那你要如何的應對 主委是的 我們過去也評估過這方面的議題一般來說我們認為"},{"start":7888.786,"end":7914.18,"text":"他們只不會直接攻擊核電廠但會有可能會攻擊核電廠周邊的地方當然這也是會造成恐慌是所以你對於這些演練你都有做一定程度的這個包括我剛說的吧有些是所謂的天災有時候是軍事的威脅那這些如果混在一起的時候呢"},{"start":7915.205,"end":7932.422,"text":"你都有做這樣的完整的演練過嗎我們在PT推演的時候有推演過這個方面的事情好 那我頭要請教你說同樣攸關這個安全防護就是游離輻射防護法的修法"},{"start":7933.183,"end":7960.295,"text":"那核安會在原能會的時期其實它就已經有預告修法那也依照這個ICRP就是國際放射防務委員會的這個報告的指示進行全盤性的檢討那我現在就是比較納悶的是說那這部法既然預告期也結束了那麼久那這個會期到底有沒有機會送進來立法院來送審"},{"start":7961.678,"end":7966.7,"text":"有沒有機會這方面我們繼續進行中這個詳細請我們組長跟委員報告報告委員那因為就是我們有公告之後就徵詢了各界的一個意見那所以我們現在還就是一直持續的在滾動檢討中那包括委員給我們的一些的關切的議題我們都一直在滾動所以我們這邊是一直在持續的辦理中"},{"start":7985.006,"end":8003.979,"text":"後續如果也因為這要依法要送到行政院來去做一個審議那審議後我們就會技術的送送到立法院這邊來好因為我其實本席跟多位委員在上個會期我們在審查預算的時候我們其實就就叫和安會說今年來輻射的安全有那麼多的議題我們都需要被討論包括"},{"start":8005.92,"end":8026.61,"text":"空勤人員的這個游離輻射安全的防護的教育或者和安會相關的這個安全教育網的建置或者檢驗工程人員的安全保障等等所以我想說有關於新興的游離輻射安全的這個防護的議題我想這些你們都會納入修法裡面嗎"},{"start":8028.71,"end":8052.969,"text":"包括委員對這邊也都會就是在納入修法那包括有一些是法或者是一個執法那也跟委員報告一下就是這一些的配套的一些執行的方案其實我們現在都已經持續的在做了像空氣能源我們現在有一個劑量管理的示範計畫那我們已經有請那個那個我們的一些航空業者來配合我們做這方面的研究"},{"start":8053.789,"end":8078.272,"text":"好 那所以如果你這個彙整的意見之後應該不會太晚送進立法院吧 因為我覺得這個這個方法還蠻重要的 因為它欠到很多的行業的安全對 這邊我幫委員我們盡數 因為畢竟還是要經過行政院的整個的一個審議這邊要特別跟委員報告一下好 謝謝 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":8093.164,"end":8100.031,"text":"我們接下來要請吳麗華委員質詢那在吳佩奕委員質詢之後我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":8120.1,"end":8148.696,"text":"主委好委員好在上個月3月31號那天呢在我們的議場藍白兩黨他們利用人數的優勢直接把核官法的修法版本就送出委員會當時是不敢記名表決這個不敢記名表決就是代表心虛不敢對未來的歷史來做一個責任的交代對吧 主委"},{"start":8150.58,"end":8158.544,"text":"就是不敢記名我們一般不太批評立法會員"},{"start":8160.671,"end":8182.149,"text":"那就是這樣嘛沒有什麼理由不敢記名嘛但是呢民眾黨很多的立委提到上個星期還提出了一個核三恢復運轉的一個公投 進夫二讀他的主文是寫說您是否同意第三核能發電廠經過"},{"start":8184.98,"end":8196.87,"text":"整體安全評估後恢復繼續運轉那我就要來問一下主委核廢料存放議題算不算整體安全評估算的那請問核廢料問題解決了嗎"},{"start":8206.497,"end":8235.032,"text":"現在是核廢料分高階跟低階啦是啊這方面問題我想請我們主持人好沒有關係因為今天時間只有六分鐘我想高放核廢料有沒有法源目前國內有沒有法源相關的安全管理規定核安會都已經訂好了那目前經濟部設置專案辦公室他們準備訂選址條例那有沒有法源高放核廢料"},{"start":8236.942,"end":8252.117,"text":"高放的核廢料我們是依照放射性物料管理法在做安全管制就沒有嘛沒有法源就什麼都做不了嗎那低放的核廢料有法源因為之前我們有做一個所謂的長指設置條例"},{"start":8255.922,"end":8281.995,"text":"那這個條例寫出來以後呢 也很尷尬為什麼 大家都很清楚啊它有選址 然後再公投當時的選址選出了呢台東達仁鄉跟金門的烏丘但是不了了之沒有縣市政府願意也沒有辦出所謂的公投完全就不了了之 嘎然而止 對吧"},{"start":8287.128,"end":8310.379,"text":"經濟部在辦理這個公投的作業過程中其實有徵詢地方的就沒有人願意嘛目前就是 現況就是這樣現況就是這樣嘛所以我才要說啊核廢料的問題都沒有辦法解決不管低階 不管高放那我不太曉得說整體的安全評估到底是還要談什麼"},{"start":8312.846,"end":8340.961,"text":"連最低層的我們要處理核廢料的問題都還解決不了那黃論何安那談到何安齁我其實要講我自己有一個親身經歷我在1999年921地震那一年我剛好服務的單位位在潮州斷層帶它是屏東縣北邊的一個學校但是921地震"},{"start":8342.338,"end":8365.374,"text":"竟然影響到我們的學校所有的教室 地板 籠體 軍列變成一個圍籠所以當時還沒有遷校的概念也不得不就蓋了一個防震係數8.3的一個防震校園就原址重建"},{"start":8368.715,"end":8380.068,"text":"這麼遠921地震在南投造成很大的一個破壞但是位在屏東的我們就因為位在潮州斷層帶我們也被波及到"},{"start":8381.533,"end":8396.144,"text":"那我在想 大家都知道 河山場它就是位在恆春斷層帶我當時的學校還位在潮州斷層帶 離600公尺喔我們的河山場離恆春斷層帶幾公尺 主委還有差1.1公里1.1公里 我當時學校是600而且921地震那麼遠"},{"start":8409.926,"end":8413.609,"text":"那恆春斷層帶 過去有沒有發生過大地震很久以前有喔應該是 都會有啦 都會納入屏幕那請問一下 我們的核電廠能夠承受任何一次的風險嗎"},{"start":8431.099,"end":8453.736,"text":"跟委員報告,在福島事故之後,河岸會有要求台電公司就參照美國的做法然後進行河一二三場場址的一些地震危害跟耐震補強那目前已經針對電廠的安全停機系統跟燃料的冷卻用過燃料池的結構進行安全評估跟補強"},{"start":8454.878,"end":8476.444,"text":"那結果如何 非常安全目前都可以符合安全的要求可以承受多少核三廠按照美國的做法程序做下來可以達到1.384G所以你的意思是說你有信心來接受核三恢復運轉"},{"start":8479.125,"end":8503.468,"text":"耐震補強跟繼續運轉是另外一件事情來看因為只要店長在運轉就是要確保他安全我現在要講的是說其實在地方確實有一些聲音那這些聲音是怎麼創造出來的我不得而知但是他們是直指未來沒有回饋金"},{"start":8505.191,"end":8513.079,"text":"所以這個部分5月17號停止運轉它其實還有25年的執行廚藝工作這25年請教一下有沒有核廢料存放回饋金 主委有沒有 有嘛地方不知道啊 有人危言聳聽啊"},{"start":8531.314,"end":8556.479,"text":"這廚藝執行期間的25年他們放的是高放還是低放報告委員經濟部的後端基金委員會裡面有訂定相關規定高低放的那個所以高低放都放在那邊嘛對不對所以繼續執行核廢料存放回饋金我覺得我講這些是因為民眾都搞不清楚"},{"start":8557.594,"end":8575.695,"text":"我們常常講談核能這件事很重要的是社會溝通但是顯然我們的社會溝通做得不夠好所以呢在這個部分我們是希望說我們對核電也好核安也好民眾都是一知半解那希望核安會"},{"start":8576.536,"end":8581.24,"text":"經濟部能夠針對這一些部分還有民眾的疑慮要能夠提出回覆並且加強核能安全的宣導相關事宜那這個部分我也希望我能夠得到一個報告兩個星期內那這麼多不同的意見其實就是代表政府不夠透明所以在這個宣導跟教育的過程當中"},{"start":8600.954,"end":8624.26,"text":"我想我們很多的民眾都不太知道核能的危險程度跟未來地方何去何從所以這個部分我還是強烈要求先討論核廢如何處理再來重視核安問題好不好好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳麗華委員 主委請回我們接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":8631.596,"end":8634.022,"text":"謝謝主席 我請何安慧主委好 我請陳主委"},{"start":8643.781,"end":8646.462,"text":"主委好今天是我們核安會的業務報告那我也很仔細看了你們的報告的內容我覺得相當的重要除了一般國人較為熟知的核能安全以外也包含了核能科技我們核能的產業價值還有核能的產業應用"},{"start":8662.069,"end":8664.191,"text":"那我們也關心因為我們整個政府中央政府各個部會的預算都有受到立法院的刪除跟凍結那我特別關心的是我們和安會今年度的關於委辦費因為有一個他有一個預算的刪除是叫做通刪"},{"start":8680.669,"end":8686.033,"text":"那委辦費的部分我們是被通刪了10%這大概是1167萬那這個部分是刪除不是凍結所以我比較關心的是那會影響到我們哪些的委辦項目因為去年在審查預算的時候我也在交文會"},{"start":8699.864,"end":8719.715,"text":"那當時對於委辦計畫很多的委員是有意見那事實上我看了一下我們的委辦計畫的內容其實非常的重要而且很多是跟我們的核能產業價值應用甚至民生醫療等等是有所相關的所以首先我想請教在我們委辦業務之中"},{"start":8722.637,"end":8736.17,"text":"這個衛星元件開發輻射驗證環境建構這個預算它是跟我們的衛星太空產業有所相關嗎有沒有誰可以說明是相關的請可以說明一下這是什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":8740.015,"end":8768.935,"text":"報告委員這個衛星源圈開發及輻射驗證環境建構主要是跟太空計畫是相關的因為現在低軌道衛星非常的流行那低軌道因為有太空輻射所以我們就要研究說某些組件或某些元件他要具備有抗輻射的能力或者是這些元件是怎麼去驗證他到底有沒有抗輻射能力這個我們的衛星源圈開發及輻射驗證環境建構主要就是在做這方面的工作"},{"start":8769.215,"end":8790.944,"text":"所以這是我們跟太空中心還有幾個單位一起合作的台灣太空輻射環境驗測聯盟這一個計劃嗎是我們今年度的相關嗎我們在今年度的預算是這個計劃預算是我看了一下大概一千多萬啦所以我們今年業務是繼續進行嗎那受到通山的部分我們怎麼樣來調配呢"},{"start":8792.965,"end":8821.134,"text":"報告委員這個像所謂的委辦計劃如果說到通山有些是如果設備要更新他可能就是會往後延因為預算如果不夠的話他就會往後延或是有些計劃的一些辦理的譬如專家學者的場次啊可能就會受到影響所以但是我們在被通山的狀況下我們還是能盡力的讓在這個有限的資源下盡量的去達到我們原先的目標"},{"start":8821.994,"end":8825.758,"text":"好 這個太空衛星以外我們委辦業務也有半導體光源設備自主能力建構這個計畫請說明是 這個因為我們現在國內的半導體的光源設備主要都是從國外進口那個金額是非常龐大的"},{"start":8839.073,"end":8861.202,"text":"所以在這個半導體光源就是EUV這一塊我們希望導入這個電漿的技術那讓國內有這個技術當我們在國外採購或是什麼引進的時候我們就可以有一些底氣我們大概就可以了解他們的技術然後未來是希望能夠朝向我們自己能夠發展研發來做"},{"start":8862.122,"end":8870.49,"text":"就跟半導體有相關的技術這也很重要我覺得也要多向國人來說明再來跟我們民生放射性物質有所相關這其實就是醫療驗測相關的啦能不能說明一下"},{"start":8874.298,"end":8894.028,"text":"那報告委員那第三個民生放射性物質的這個設備的防護我們是委託學者能夠配就是因為我們工業上的應用業者也很多所以我們就是希望透過委辦的一個方式那學者來到到業者限地去做一些輔導然後去做一個教育訓練那讓他們在使用這些"},{"start":8898.63,"end":8908.544,"text":"游離輻射設備的時候的一些觀念可以再建立起來所以在這一邊我們的計畫還是有在執行但是有受到這個統三的這一塊我們有去調整一些那個服務的一個量體這樣"},{"start":8914.833,"end":8924.545,"text":"好 謝謝第四項是民生商品它含天然放射性物質的例如說現在有負離子床墊啊 驗測等等這個計畫能否說明對 這個因為就是來自於韓國曾經發生負離子床墊的一個問題那我們有波及到所以我們在這一塊是建立這個因為民生用品很多"},{"start":8934.637,"end":8958.616,"text":"那它涉及的這些負離子商品其實是最大的危害是冬氣所以在這一些的冬氣量測或者是一些技術標定上的一些研究技術我們就是在這個計畫裡頭去研究去建立的那確實也計畫還是有在執行但是一些研發的一些進度或者是里程碑有一點點的去做一個調整好 謝謝"},{"start":8960.037,"end":8983.734,"text":"各位 我們核安會的業務當中核能安全重中之重但是我們也跟民生產業都有所相關例如太空產業 醫療 醫農工等等所以我希望我們還是要跟國人以及我們立法院的委員多加來說明希望我們的預算是能夠讓我們的科研人才可以有一個比較好的環境放手的去執行 好不好"},{"start":8984.714,"end":8999.92,"text":"好最後我要關心的是因為去年審查預算我也關心過也就是關於我們和安會的成員的性別比例那同時呢因為這也是更加關鍵是我們全台灣核能人才的性別比例那目前我們和安會成員66%是男性女性是33%那我看了一下國際原子能總數"},{"start":9006.403,"end":9013.372,"text":"他有去做一個統計在全球的核能勞動力也就是核能人才當中女性只有25%男性佔了75%那所以這其實是一個全球性的現象當然我們目前手邊是沒有台灣全台灣的這個性別的統計"},{"start":9023.024,"end":9049.738,"text":"我看了一下原子能總署最近發布了兩個新的計劃給這個河南會做參考第一個是瑪麗居里研究生獎學金計劃是針對學生就是只要是我們研讀核能相關的碩士的學生提供獎學金還有實習的機會第二個是針對在職的已經在任職的核能領域的女性的專業人士他提供訪問計劃"},{"start":9050.879,"end":9054.3,"text":"所以第一個我是希望我們核安會可以將這個計畫多多的推介給我們台灣的核能的女性研究人才第二個我認為我們也可以參考因為有跟你們討論過我們盡力的來去提升在台灣核能的科研人才的性別平等好不好是的核安會也非常注重女性在這裡面的角色我們核安會女性的"},{"start":9076.178,"end":9094.132,"text":"比例是越來越高 擔任主管的比例也有一些所以這方面我的趨勢下去的話 我相信我們是樂觀的我們非常鼓勵女性從事核能或核安方面的工作好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":9098.598,"end":9106.588,"text":"謝謝 謝謝吳佩儀委員我們主委請回那我們現在休息五分鐘佩翔委員不好意思我剛有宣告 謝謝"},{"start":9461.479,"end":9464.861,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 我們接下來請林沛翔委員有請陳珠瑋好 有請陳珠瑋"},{"start":9491.912,"end":9512.791,"text":"各位核能安全是不容許絲毫妥協的那我相信說核能有其科學價值跟能源戰略意義我想這一點來講全國國人都應該一致的那我今天是要與相對來講是具體的市政跟社會的關注角度來提出質詢請核安會盡量是以正面具體來做回應"},{"start":9513.972,"end":9534.819,"text":"第一個當然是有關合一合二已經進入除疫的階段那這個除疫的階段這不是一個任務的完成而是另外一個更複雜更漫長的風險管理的開始請提議有關這些像是高放射性的廢棄物處理也好還是有關污染物的移除"},{"start":9535.219,"end":9554.761,"text":"甚至土地的再利用跟社區的安置這些議題我想請問河安會是否有具備長期追蹤這些長期的風險之法定權責跟資源呢是有的那有沒有公開廚藝各階段的時程跟環境監測的數據的標準格式"},{"start":9558.637,"end":9564.875,"text":"这方面详细的提升,我请组长跟委员报告一下。"},{"start":9566.275,"end":9591.105,"text":"跟委員說明有關於廚藝整個25年的期程台電規劃出來都有在河岸衛的網站都有那有關於那個長子所在地的輻射偵測那台電公司的相關資訊也都有都有放在網上公民眾可以去了解好 那目前來講是不是已經跟地方政府包括新北跟基隆建立所謂災後廚藝安全監控的聯繫平台呢"},{"start":9597.307,"end":9620.869,"text":"沒有嗎不是說核能發電廠合一合二除役之後那地方政府的聯繫就關這方面因為我們知道說這方面還是有很多其他跟地方政府需要聯繫的地方除役之後不是單純就是除役而已那跟地方政府之間的除役後的安全監控聯繫平台是否有建立"},{"start":9624.441,"end":9646.142,"text":"跟委員報告其實目前新北跟屏東他們基本上都還有這個所謂的地方的這個核能安全監督委員會那事實上不管是運轉或者是除役相關的議題也都會提到那一邊去做一個報告跟說明那每一次這個台電公司也都會針對"},{"start":9647.603,"end":9661.421,"text":"那個監督委員的要求提出相關的包括這個運轉除役後的期程跟除役後的委員關切的這些問題都有在這個監督委員會委員也都有提案來做一個說明"},{"start":9662.688,"end":9679.268,"text":"好 謝謝那我想請問第二個議題第二個議題其實我們知道說在亞洲這幾年來最慘烈的河岸事件應該就是福島就是福島的核災那福島核災已經過了13年了那我們當初政府也承諾說過全面檢視 系統強化"},{"start":9681.03,"end":9697.152,"text":"那針對說以下我想請問一下我們核安會針對我們這個核能發電廠的海嘯牆我們的應急的電源我們通風的備源跟我們數位化系統是不是都已經全數的升級完成呢"},{"start":9699.382,"end":9728.224,"text":"跟委員說明 福島事後 河岸外有一些列管的事項包括委員提到的一些硬體設備那另外還有一些軟體 包括運轉能源 電廠的一些應變程序都有那有關於那個電力設備 後備的電源都有去增設移動式電源車啊然後另外也增加重要廠房的水密門然後也針對地震的一些強化 耐震強化也進行評估跟補強"},{"start":9729.125,"end":9751.634,"text":"都已經完成謝謝您 謝謝組長特地提到地震因為我下一個問題就是說因為現在極端地震其實發生的地方不會只是單純說在地震帶而已而是什麼地方都有可能發生地震那針對極端地震甚至山崩所造成的冷卻失敗的冷卻失效的模擬測試結果是什麼呀有關至少河山廠吧"},{"start":9754.524,"end":9775.033,"text":"這個在台電公司我們列管的文件裡面有一項就是針對應變的程序包括緊急應變然後複合災害的一些運轉操作這部分都有進行整合那也例行性的去測試演練 以上說明那目前結果是我們是測試到第幾級的地震呢"},{"start":9777.567,"end":9802.175,"text":"會依照我們參考美國的做法就是針對河伊河山場所在地320公里範圍內可知的一些地震都納入評估然後進行強化大概可以承受到幾級地震以河伊河山場來講已經可以達到氣象署所定的最大級別7級地震以上"},{"start":9803.906,"end":9831.142,"text":"因為這就是我本來是想問既然已經跟美國因為我記得是美日法這三個國家相對來講是在國際之間配配公認的核能強國那如果有跟他們一樣同行同步修訂的這個最新的災害標準跟這個演練參數那我想我就比較放心因為我們是希望說有更能夠實驗過後的實證資料跟持續改進的機制這樣對於我們的核能安全會有比較良好的一個保證"},{"start":9833.363,"end":9856.228,"text":"第三點我也想請教就是歷經來講這個軍演中國大陸的軍演這個是我們所謂的Clear and Present danger既迫切又實際實在的威脅那其實不管什麼樣的軍演尤其是在目前這個地緣政治複雜的時候我們台灣的核能設施會是我們是一個弱點呢還是一個堡壘"},{"start":9857.088,"end":9860.832,"text":"那我想請問一下我們核能發電廠有沒有納入所謂的戰略基礎設施保護網呢"},{"start":9867.222,"end":9889.812,"text":"有那既然有的話那沈河安會說明說在解放軍演習的期間針對核能發電廠進行的防護評估跟沙盤推演是什麼假設他們真的想說現在核一核二在處理嘛那如果核三的話目前如果解放軍他們真的來攻擊台灣那目前來講核能發電廠準備做什麼樣的防護評估呢"},{"start":9891.881,"end":9905.096,"text":"跟委員報告基本上依照國際公約任何的軍事行動是不可以供給核能電廠這是先跟委員做個說明但是也不排除說會有像譬如說像俄烏戰爭 札波羅的電廠"},{"start":9906.818,"end":9928.841,"text":"之後事實上會裡面就把相關的這些情境我們就已經納到我們每年的河岸演習的一個兵棋推演的一個過程這邊可以跟委員報告就是當我們知道有這樣的一個軍事威脅的時候首先當然就要針對場裡面的維生跟維運相關的物資的準備人員的部分就要補足充足"},{"start":9929.942,"end":9947.856,"text":"隨時應變那因為基本上是後續的話當然我們就會依照可能發生的情境再做一些推演所以我想這部分我們自從俄烏戰爭之後這個議題一直都在融在我們的荷蘭演習的情境裡面以上"},{"start":9949.042,"end":9974.195,"text":"好 因為核能發電廠其實是我們很重要的戰略應該講起來如果發生戰爭不發生戰爭會發生戰爭這個核能發電廠都是我們國家很重要的一個資源那我也想說我認為我們核能發電廠是不是有具備我們電力不管是電力冷卻水源還是通訊備源系統是不是有獨立的評估那我想今天我的時間有限我希望核安會在後面會後可以給我詳細的書面資料以上"},{"start":9978.404,"end":9983.67,"text":"好 謝謝林沛翔委員 主委請回我們接下來請范雲委員好 謝謝周委 有請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":10001.348,"end":10027.062,"text":"那個陳主委應該現在還是早安我想剛剛有幾位委員都有講到就是上禮拜五台灣民眾黨黨團在院會臨時提出公投案那試圖通過公投針對第三核能發電廠他們覺得用他的話語叫做繼續運轉那當然主文是問說你是否同意在經過整體安全評估後恢復繼續運轉"},{"start":10028.863,"end":10052.335,"text":"那針對這個問題我想剛剛主委有談到您的用語叫做local consent是不是local consent就是翻成中文就是在地同意對那我們來看其實針對演藝的事情我們沒有一個法規清楚的規範要怎麼行使評估安全評估怎麼行使local consent可是我們根據"},{"start":10053.436,"end":10072.651,"text":"低放射性廢棄物最終處置設置場址設置條例候選場址光一個低階的放射性廢棄物的候選場址本身都必須要經當地縣市公民投票同意才能夠成為候選場址"},{"start":10073.912,"end":10085.706,"text":"這個部分很明確就是local consent嘛在地同意對不對那可是呢你也可以看到光就是說剛剛武力華為也有提到金門烏丘跟台東達人被選為低階放射的這個候選常識他們依法要進行地方公投他連辦都拒絕辦"},{"start":10094.056,"end":10115.007,"text":"他覺得辦好像就已經變成是有可能同意了所以地方政府的立場是非常的清楚喔那依法他應該要辦他拒絕辦所以你這程序又走不下去嘛所以地方政府就直接跳出來反對了就沒有local consent了對不對所以我們才會核廢料連低階的喔那也要反駁一下剛剛居然有"},{"start":10116.107,"end":10134.221,"text":"民眾黨委員講全世界只有芬蘭有最終處置場意思就是說大家都沒有最終處置場高階的所以現在繼續有核電廠沒問題他忽略了一個重要事實很多國家其實有低階的處置場人家地大物薄跟我們非常的不一樣我們現在是連低階的"},{"start":10140.626,"end":10165.731,"text":"而且就是還不是最終這個處置廠的候選場址都沒有當候選人都不願意了更何況是最後被選定那所以我想國際上我們查一下1976年美國加州全民公投就訂了法律禁止在該州建造新的核電廠禁令到現在仍有效日本1996年的日本新系現捲釘"},{"start":10168.611,"end":10195.166,"text":"就經由地方公投案否決卷町核電廠的建設2014年瑞士博恩邦曾對核電廠是否應提前關閉進行過地方性的公投那我們可以看到就是以媽媽企業行動聯盟的資料依照日本核電廠的慣例啟動之前會先徵得地方政府的同意"},{"start":10195.966,"end":10222.49,"text":"所以他們最近沒有得到地方的同意想要在日本最大的新系線博齊那個字怎麼唸義語合電廠就是要有這個那結果呢就有14萬人連署他們要公投因為依日本的慣例你這個部分其實是要公投的那我們其實已經看到地方政府"},{"start":10223.09,"end":10244.232,"text":"周春米 剛剛林怡瑾召委也有提到 周春米縣長就很直接講這個多數暴力要公投這個部分 而且在立法院是禁富二讀那事實上沒有尊重屏東人的意見 屏東人的生命安全他最後寫 屏東要安全 屏東要繁榮 屏東人的命運由我們自己決定"},{"start":10245.013,"end":10260.07,"text":"那天我們屏東的立委現在鍾嘉斌也在場待會應該也會繼續表達還有莊瑞雄就是幾位屏東的委員都表達反對所以這件事情有屏東的local consent嗎那個主委以你現在看到的事實認定"},{"start":10264.096,"end":10282.732,"text":"看來是沒有看來是沒有嘛那您同不同意這個公投投下去非常的粗暴完全我們跟民主國家比日本我們現在很驕傲我們好像在一些評比比日本還民主那這樣子是符合民主精神嗎這個公投"},{"start":10283.735,"end":10304.275,"text":"沒有local consent您剛講您的專業都知道要local consent連個核廢料低階這個候選場址都要local consent了那這個完全忽略地方的民意那這是不是一個不尊重民主程序的公投案以您了解的local consent有嗎"},{"start":10308.266,"end":10318.4,"text":"我想我們的立場就是尊重公投法還有立法院的決議來辦理尊重公投法公投法裡面有講那個低結核廢料需要local consent嗎"},{"start":10322.096,"end":10343.096,"text":"因為以低階核廢料這個選址條例它算是特別法然後Geno的公投法是這個不是屬於地方公投的事項這就是我希望你們去了解的低階核廢料因為這裡把這個local consent具體明文化了所以候選長址就得不到同意就走不下去因為地方政府都反對"},{"start":10343.917,"end":10351.381,"text":"那今天呢就是因為我們這個研議的東西沒有一個很清楚的法規針對安全評估怎麼樣要處理也要local consent所以現在會出現這個粗暴的這個河山研議的公投案完全不尊重屏東的縣政府屏東的立委那他們的表達意見就是他們反對立委選出來當然代表民意嘛縣政府 縣長選出來代表民意"},{"start":10373.052,"end":10396.203,"text":"那主委你是不是可以去研議一下就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施長指設置條例那相關的研議最壞的情況如果這個粗暴公投通過的話當然我們是反對的那是否你可以去研議相關的修法就比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設置長指的設置條例"},{"start":10398.817,"end":10419.991,"text":"你建一個核電廠,當年40年前台灣不是個民主國家啊你40年後,你滴接核廢料都要當地居民的同意了剛剛主委的專業術與local consent那是不是也應該把這個精神放在相關的研議與否安全評估的法規中呢可以去研議吧,我請你研議喔"},{"start":10423.291,"end":10445.951,"text":"主委這裡有主委來打好了好不好去研議好嗎有關研議部分目前是沒有需要公投目前沒有但是我們是可以修法嘛您是主管機關和安會嘛這個低放射性這個最終處理場設置條例是不是你們也是相關的主管機關對是嗎對那既然你們這樣可以比照它去研議吧"},{"start":10448.069,"end":10453.43,"text":"演繹 主委演繹當然是可以討論的議題那就請主委去演繹好嗎可不可以演繹三個月之內給我們一個報告給本席一個報告初步的就好看看其他國家的經驗好不好好謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":10468.732,"end":10477.58,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員 主委請回我們接下來先來處理臨時提案 那請宣讀核電廠終有廚藝之日 美國核能管制會專家曾表示如果核電廠不停機就成交廚藝計畫書輻射量尚未穩定降下 對於輻射前置調查作業恐欠缺"},{"start":10493.257,"end":10506.217,"text":"準確的估算例如反應爐區的管線反應爐壓力槽和燃料棒之間的空間等及無法掌握輻射量多寡無法準確掌握輻射污染程度及無法"},{"start":10507.903,"end":10529.161,"text":"準確掌握廚藝過程需要的清理經費及人力需求為避免紙上作業的拆除計畫書與實際現場執行產生嚴重落差導致最後廚藝經費暴增或造成輻射擴散危及周遭居民及第一線廚藝人員的健康或使輻射污染繼續殘留在核電廠區等嚴重問題建請核安會對於核電拆除計畫書應嚴加審查"},{"start":10535.526,"end":10550.497,"text":"同時為以籌謀加緊培訓專業廚藝人員並對河山二號機停機廚藝工作盡早嚴謀因應並向善盡河岸監管之者提案人林怡瑾、郭益晴、張雅琳、范雲等"},{"start":10553.609,"end":10574.468,"text":"好 謝謝 這個案子是本席的臨時提案我想我的目的就是要要求那個核安會要針對即將停機的這個核三二號機無論如何一定要嚴加審查這個拆除計畫書那以及廚藝的一切這個相關的工作那同時也要有足夠的這個專業的廚藝人員來保障這個職場"},{"start":10578.151,"end":10601.999,"text":"安全的情況之下讓相關的廚藝工作可以落實安全能夠被確保那請教委員有沒有其他意見少一位對少一位等一下再處理等一下再處理好好好來來來"},{"start":10603.993,"end":10627.204,"text":"喔 來了來了OK OK 好那如果沒有其他的意見 那那個河安會主委這裡河安會可以同意這個提案OK 好 那我們這個案子就照案通過好 謝謝那我們接下來繼續質詢我們首先先請鐘嘉斌委員時間4分鐘"},{"start":10639.486,"end":10646.308,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進列席的總統、江蘇黨官員、會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請陳主委好,陳主委主委好文藝好我知道主委是,請看下一頁主委也是文學造詣很高,我們來研究一下文學"},{"start":10662.615,"end":10685.636,"text":"這是一個民眾黨的公投提案文它說恢復繼續運轉請問恢復跟繼續有沒有衝突啊恢復就是做一件事情停下來然後要恢復再去做對不對那繼續是什麼就是一直做一直做嘛那請問您的語文的認知什麼叫做恢復繼續"},{"start":10690.609,"end":10703.595,"text":"我這是沒有科學的問題,是文學的問題,你認為這個公投是要做什麼?修詩學的問題,我不敢說我是專家啦。你的認知,一般人看到這個是怎樣?到底何三長幹嘛?"},{"start":10705.302,"end":10731.043,"text":"我猜就是要它要運轉就對了繼續運轉就對了繼續運轉但是好了我們看一下來另外一個常識的問題請問主委下一題你知道我們目前台灣的發電的配比吧火力發電燃氣的四成七燃煤的三成然後呢其他的有大概三成三趴綠能已經超過大概十二趴核能不到五趴是不是這樣子"},{"start":10733.095,"end":10756.628,"text":"跟你的認知一樣啦 好 我們看一下晚一些但是呢 用電量我們看一下目前以裝置容量來講 北部是沒有核能的中部是沒有核能的 只有南部屏東有951MW然後呢 我們看看用電用電的部分 哪裡用最多 北部用最多嘛"},{"start":10758.19,"end":10778.263,"text":"發電的部分哪裡發最多?南部發最多嘛所以是不是可以合理推論目前我們的發電裝置是以南部為主而且供應可能以北部來使用,可以這樣說嗎?南部發電量是比較大北部用量多嘛,所以是不是南電北送,好往下看"},{"start":10779.318,"end":10796.723,"text":"所以今天有很多人在關心電力不足所以有人主張核電那有人說到未來的AI發展還有那個Data Center數據化的部分會推升那你覺得這樣的一個用電台灣的用電區的推估你覺得有它的合理性嗎是要繼續用電會增加嗎"},{"start":10806.762,"end":10824.398,"text":"我現在是問常識啦那麼未來的用電需求是北部上升的會比其他地方來的多這個推論又是可能啦好那我們來看一下大概是你們的專業了再來說核電廠營運這樣的情況往上就是有人說要讓他"},{"start":10826.939,"end":10853.539,"text":"運轉要停止那停止要五年前申請換照有沒有這個法律規定有有這個法律規定好我們再看下一頁那麼目前河山廠有沒有已經超過了申請換照的期限有沒有有有嗎好已經不可能了嘛因為呢兩個都在一個在去年的四月七月二十七一個在今年的五月十七而且呢除疫計劃也審核通過預定什麼時候會取得除疫許可"},{"start":10856.829,"end":10876.873,"text":"五月還平 除役許可 好 那往下看那所以一旦除役之後 目前法條規定是不是叫做永久停止運轉是的好 那麼不管有人要他繼續運轉 或者恢復運轉 要不要修法要那目前法有沒有在修 修過了沒"},{"start":10878.955,"end":10900.573,"text":"還沒有好所以呢一個公投主文要恢復繼續一個衝突的語句在法條上它不存在能夠馬上運轉的可能性但是現實上台灣未來的用電需求增加北部比南部更多那請問我們最後一題來是不是未來如果說要恢復"},{"start":10907.401,"end":10918.855,"text":"核電要恢復使用 第一個要通過修法第二個 用電竟然在北部 您覺得那如果真的要恢復核電是不是核一核二比較符合用電地區的需求啊"},{"start":10922.932,"end":10948.972,"text":"主委這部分恐怕台電比我更適合台電變得更清楚,好沒關係接下來我想大家就講很清楚了這個主委是我們課級的很受尊敬的領袖啦那我等一下就說侯羅維,我們主席比較聽話啦一般來說啦,像這種情形喔,在香港來說啦你在用電,我在吃辣,就是私道又不是貧道,叫做臭俗辣啦"},{"start":10949.778,"end":10972.312,"text":"主委聽懂嗎聽得懂所以我們就知道為什麼有人會被說臭俗辣就是這種提案呢就是稀得又不是平得北部在用電北部的核電廠都不用恢復運轉南部用電少又要南部來承擔風險我請主委可以把這樣的嘗試的方式呢來跟其他的周邊的人分享以上的諮詢 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":10978.035,"end":10980.498,"text":"主委請回我們接下來請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言邀請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":11002.049,"end":11026.862,"text":"本周一是世界地球日總統也接見了全國的NGO團體環團代表也特別針對了核能發表這個看法總統也表示核能的議題需要凝聚共識政府將持續穩定供電開發多元的綠能他也不排除任何有助淨零的方案行政團隊對於未來新的"},{"start":11029.503,"end":11053.621,"text":"先進的核能技術保持著開放的態度但是也特別說任何的政策變更都必須滿足核安、核廢、社會共識才可能來進行那在這樣的一個說法本席要請教主委核安會對於核能發電的立場是什麼總統以及行政院長"},{"start":11054.501,"end":11070.479,"text":"還有我們的經濟部的郭部長他都表示了對於先進的核能技術採取開放的立場那核安會的態度呢請主委說明核安會也是對先進核能技術採取開放立場"},{"start":11070.979,"end":11099.413,"text":"也是開放的立場好那我們繼續來討論核能的爭議最主要的就是在核廢料好像目前還沒有解放但是核廢料沒有辦法處理的這一點引起了大家的一個疑慮那過去核電科技再怎麼進步都去不了去不掉這個核廢料的處理還沒有解放的陰影但是我們看到最近日本"},{"start":11100.493,"end":11119.903,"text":"日本原能所宣布開發出首款的核廢料充電電池雖然沒有辦法一舉解決所有核廢料的問題但是我們至少期待已經有看到曙光日本原能所正式宣布以後"},{"start":11120.923,"end":11127.186,"text":"為活性物質設計出新款可充電的電池呢日本原理所他號稱喔這款的充電電池呢電壓達到1.3伏特那麼接近了鹼性的這個電池的1.5伏特所以本席在這邊請教主委目前河岸會對於日本這個先進技術我們了解的程度是如何那麼我們國內"},{"start":11147.714,"end":11170.875,"text":"是不是也有類似像這樣的一個研究在進行中你認為它日本所宣布的這是不是也可以來解決核廢料的一個面向請說明我們有 核安會有注意到這方面的消息是 先請高院長跟委員長說一下好 院長是 這個我們有掌握 是基本上"},{"start":11171.656,"end":11189.376,"text":"核廢料電池用核廢料來處理事實上國營院三年前也做過一個研究但是發現這個CP值都非常的低包括日本這個研究它是用一個含鈾的電解液它甚至說可以到1.3快要接近了減進了1.5伏特"},{"start":11191.458,"end":11212.434,"text":"對 他認為有穩定電力的供應但是我們國內要把鈾用過核廢料做鈾的分離受到美國跟國際原子能所總署法規的規定有限制所以我們不可能從用過核燃料去提煉做再處理我們不可能 但是我們還是有其他的研究是是是"},{"start":11212.594,"end":11231.487,"text":"我們有其他研究也會注意 密切注意中國大陸 中國方面也有類似的研究所以我們希望看全世界各國有哪一些面向我們當然都要集聚這一些的智慧跟解決方案限制 所以沒辦法從何非料所以一定要好好的去跟世界接軌"},{"start":11232.848,"end":11242.015,"text":"哪一方面有哪一方面的面向的一個方案我們都可以拿回來作為借鏡好 那接下來本席要請教我們的這個核廢料它分為高低放射性的廢棄物那目前我們高的部分是用過的燃料棒"},{"start":11254.224,"end":11264.191,"text":"那其餘的我們歸類在低放射性的這個廢棄物目前我們國內僅針對於低放射性廢棄物有最終處置設置場址設置的條件的這個條例主管機關單位是我們的核安費那主辦單位是經濟部高的部分呢高放的這個處置呢到目前為止我們還沒有法源"},{"start":11281.684,"end":11289.308,"text":"所以目前政府傾向維持高放跟低放來分開立法的原則那麼我們現在河岸會也改組為安全管制機關經濟部將擔下高放的選址立法的責任經濟部現在也緊鑼密鼓地在籌設放射性廢棄物處置的專案辦公室所以請教主委"},{"start":11310.22,"end":11317.487,"text":"在目前我們的核燴料的處置上面 核安會你的角色功能是如何你又要怎麼樣跟經濟部來分工合作 請做說明"},{"start":11322.253,"end":11347.218,"text":"目前處理高階核廢料當務之急是興建乾式儲存設施本會會繼續監督台電推行的計畫這是當務之急高階核廢料還沒到最終處置的時候將來因為有科技進步有很多新的方法來處理包括把高階核廢料轉換低階核廢料"},{"start":11351.162,"end":11378.403,"text":"這個技術一直大家都在研究我們相信未來會有一些成果出現一直在研究未來會有一些成果出現那經濟部現在他們正在籌備這個專責的辦公室那未來我們和安會要怎麼樣跟經濟部去做合作的這個事宜呢現在新的專責機構最重要的是跟地方的溝通"},{"start":11379.824,"end":11403.434,"text":"就local consent無論如何有沒有核電廠都一定會有核廢料所以第一屆核廢料儲存廠一定要有地方放所以這方面的地區的溝通地方的溝通是非常重要這是關鍵所以專責辦公室專案辦公室的重點是在跟地方來協調對對對所以你的說法是如此嗎院長要不要再說明一下"},{"start":11409.705,"end":11427.819,"text":"報告委員那個經濟部的專欄辦公室他的主要工作一個是高放處置的選址法案推動那另外他還監做高低放廢棄物選址作業以及必要的地址調查跟社會溝通"},{"start":11429.229,"end":11440.402,"text":"好 我們也就是希望既然政府有這個專案辦公室那在整個的合作事宜我們希望能夠這個緊密結合這個才能夠達成這個效能嗎是的好 加油 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝楊瓊英委員所有請回我們接下來請萬美玲委員"},{"start":11455.564,"end":11458.741,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們要有請陳明正主委好 有請主委"},{"start":11465.755,"end":11488.545,"text":"主委好 我想我們這個台灣核電廠將要在這個下個月核三廠二號及廚藝之後正式停止核能發電但是後續的這個廚藝程序仍然是漫長而且複雜的工程包括燃料移除還有設備拆除的準備那以及低放射性廢棄物的處理等等我相信都必須要非常的謹慎來推動"},{"start":11490.126,"end":11519.335,"text":"那但是核電廠停止運轉之後某一些類型的低階核廢料原來要透過核電廠中的減容中心焚化爐來焚燒以減少低階核廢料的總量其中我們有看到一個數據在核二廠的焚化爐大概就要再燒27年那這部分會不會關係到核安跟公共安全請您簡答我們這方面已經做過準備了那會不會關係到核安跟公共安全您只要回答我會不會就好"},{"start":11521.008,"end":11545.355,"text":"不會不會不會處理不會不會影響公共安全就是說是會影響到只是你們會處理應該是這樣說啦如果說不會這個你就真的是這個不知道你在打什麼好來我們來看那個上週核二廠就是有傳出在111年中招標的簡容中心焚化爐系統更新工程有一個弊案"},{"start":11546.095,"end":11546.335,"text":"我們馬上有做調查"},{"start":11565.948,"end":11584.461,"text":"這方面是疑似的所謂的弊案是有關焚化爐結果是什麼 你不要把我的問題拿來當答案重做一次調查結果並不影響核電廠的安全並不影響 但是有這件事 對嗎疑似有這件事 你又說疑似有然後又說有調查 只說不影響我覺得這個主委可能要再嚴謹一點"},{"start":11592.387,"end":11612.433,"text":"那所以你說不影響 好 聽起來目前暫時沒有安全的疑慮可是我覺得這件事情讓人家非常憂心你看這個廠長在這個任內疑似多次圖利特定廠商那去年還被指控利用限制性招標的手法協助了同一家的業者取得了簡榮中興焚化爐SKATA的主機的採購案這個主委知道嗎"},{"start":11620.495,"end":11641.37,"text":"但是我們知道這個主機的系統很重要它對於關鍵基礎設施等等它的這個系統是負責監控跟管理焚化爐運作的一個關鍵的流程一旦真的發生問題不僅會造成營運的中斷可能對於我們這個員工人身跟公共安全會造成傷害所以非常的嚴重"},{"start":11642.15,"end":11669.822,"text":"所以我要請教一下主委目前我們對於核電廠各項廢棄物處理設施的建制包括乾式儲存廠等等會不會主動的參與台電跟廠商的驗收還是我們只是被動的在運轉之前來做一做安全的測試而已這主要工作是屬於台電方面的工作 詳細請問一下當然是嘛 所以我才問你說你會不會去參與台電跟廠商的驗收在驗收這個部分你會不會提出你的專業意見"},{"start":11671.258,"end":11696.241,"text":"報告委員 那個有關台電公司的招標那是屬於台電公司內部的管理問題那我們核安會負責安全的把關工作在剛才委員所提到這個SCADA這個系統其實它是原本已經存在減農中心的一個系統它就是一個伺服器跟一個軟體那我們核安會要求它做好啦 主委"},{"start":11696.781,"end":11700.547,"text":"我想我不是來跟你討論這個設備到底在做什麼的而是說我們發生這樣的弊案我覺得我們應該要更嚴謹一點這一些弊案都有可能涉及相關可能產生更大的安全的問題所以我覺得我們的嚴謹度要再更高一些"},{"start":11713.365,"end":11721.149,"text":"那我想不管是核電廠的本身或者是有關核廢料處理的各項的設備都是涉及核安的剛剛本席有說過任何一個環節這個出了問題恐怕都會造成無法挽回的一個災害所以核安會我們不僅要更積極真的要強化這個對核電廠的一個監督那另外一個問題"},{"start":11734.917,"end":11748.206,"text":"針對非核安專業的包括像土木、機電或資訊等核電廠的工程我們有沒有具體的強化經濟的方案或者是定期請這個第三方相關的一個專家來協助查核有做這樣的事嗎"},{"start":11751.894,"end":11768.194,"text":"跟委員說明有關於其他非安全相關的一些工程那核安會在針對這部分之前已經要求台電公司針對包商的管理跟內部的管控這部分這樣啦 本席在這邊都是善意提醒喔"},{"start":11768.795,"end":11789.071,"text":"所以我希望核安会是不是能够在一个月之内跟本席一份强化核安监督精进的方案给我一个书面的报告那针对今天其实我们有很多担心跟疑虑我想这个报告在一个月之内我们把它整理一下整理的过程之中我们顺便大家能够更严谨地去对待可能面对的这些问题可以吗"},{"start":11790.312,"end":11808.313,"text":"那再来我想再请教一个陈主委今年在这个一月份曾经率队查访已经厨艺的核一核二厂去了解厨艺跟干储设施的推动的进展那么也跟台电人员交流你当时在现场是不是有听到台电要跟这个核能发电处做整并有没有这件事"},{"start":11808.914,"end":11824.629,"text":"在当时我在这没有当时没有那可是我们看到核一核二厂已经进入厨艺的阶段核三厂在今年五月要正式厨艺那卓院长也有要求台电不能让核电厂管理人员因为核电厂厨艺而离开因为这都是我们非常重要的人才了"},{"start":11825.149,"end":11830.333,"text":"尤其我们看到在去年11月我们联合国气候变化大会上面也有讲到"},{"start":11855.549,"end":11873.259,"text":"是的,所以挖角這件事情國外一直有做這樣的動作對,所以當我們如果不重視的話可能這些人才就會被挖走好,陳主委,最後啦在一月份你訪視這個當中你也有在座談會提到說我們要汲取國際經驗做好人力資源管理跟經驗傳承"},{"start":11874.48,"end":11886.026,"text":"沒有說過這句話嘛對不對好但是現實卻是我們台灣核電人才逐漸一直在流失當中根據台電公司的資料核能發電事業部從2018年的2529人減為目前的1838人7年內減少了27%我覺得這個問題非常的嚴重所以既然那個院長有提出來那這個組委也有注意到但是呢我們要付諸實際怎麼樣去"},{"start":11901.693,"end":11907.762,"text":"而留住我們這些人才所以這一個部分是不是主委有具體的想法跟做法"},{"start":11908.789,"end":11935.531,"text":"我們一直有要求台電保存這個核能人才的儲備而且我們也鼓勵年輕學子投入這個行業主委我這個現在時間有限最後一句話給你鼓勵這件事情不會讓現在發生的問題去做解決拿出一些實際的辦法去因應面對現在我們人才流失這才是重中之重好不好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11937.981,"end":11942.323,"text":"好 謝謝 萬美玲委員 主委請回我們接下來請洪孟凱委員主席謝謝 麻煩請陳主委好 有請陳主委好 主委好 何安非常重要"},{"start":11966.263,"end":11992.68,"text":"前兩天這個世界地球日賴清德總統也說接見環團的時候有講到對未來的新核能技術保持開放的態度環境部長說沒有所謂非核家園非核家園不是行政團隊的神主牌有看到嗎對的那我們都不知道說那這樣子現在民進黨過去一直在野的時候強調的非核跟現在又可以大轉彎然後"},{"start":11994.762,"end":11998.867,"text":"臉不紅氣不喘我們也覺得非常的感到非常的精細是和戲不過"},{"start":12000.629,"end":12027.391,"text":"如果說真的沒有所謂的非核家園神主牌的話那態度很重要這不是只是嘴巴講講嘛那我請教上個月底我們有排審核子反應器設施管制條例管制法第六條的修正草案的時候沒有相關的版本不管是我們政院不管是我們政府不管是我們綠營的委員沒有相關版本身為主管機關主委你怎麼看"},{"start":12031.294,"end":12056.057,"text":"我感覺這個版本已經很多了什麼版本已經很多 他沒有你們的版本主委 你是在開玩笑還是你是認真嚴肅的回答本席的問題嗎因為核安會是核能安全主管機關是核電要不要研議核子反應器設施管制法主管機關是誰明定這個法的主管機關"},{"start":12057.521,"end":12076.95,"text":"這是核安會是啊 前身是原能會現在是核安會啊那我們現在在講是說如果說政府也覺得說沒有所謂的非核家園沒有要死爆神主牌那要討論核電廠能不能研議現在世界各國 美國 日本有多少核電廠研議"},{"start":12081.506,"end":12108.003,"text":"有關核電研議的事情是屬於核能政策的問題研議的電廠大概100多所以這些研議的電廠是不是都經過安全的評估 專業的評估理性的評估 科學的評估是嘛 不然他們政府不敢放嘛那一樣的道理"},{"start":12108.863,"end":12126.616,"text":"我們國家裡面河一場 河二場 河三場過去有沒有做過相關研議的評估安全評估報告河一場有將近有做評估河二場也有 河三場也有嘛河二河三沒有 河一場有確定喔 諸位"},{"start":12128.413,"end":12144.126,"text":"沒有送到河岸會來審查有做評估但是沒有送河岸會來審查還是沒做評估評估應該是台電內部的事台電內部有評估啊但是做完這個報告之後當然會有送相關主管機關啊沒有送過來確定嗎主委 確定喔我確定因為"},{"start":12151.601,"end":12174.61,"text":"本席後續還會再追這個議題但是我現在很清楚明白的確定是台電過去都有做核電廠的安全研議評估尤其是核三廠這個是本席很確定的部分再來第二個部分選址也是一個重點對不對核廢料的一個選址那現在我們看到說行政部門"},{"start":12175.888,"end":12203.94,"text":"有已經有所謂行政院有所謂的一個選址辦公室那也希望能夠趕快來確定選址立法來送政院那其中特別有提到是說現在這個辦公室主任還沒找到但是對外的說法是說還會再找不管是台電不管是和安會的人員一起進入到這個辦公室我請教一下主委到目前這有沒有相關進度還是和安會有沒有接收到說到底這個辦公室要做什麼"},{"start":12204.89,"end":12231.988,"text":"我目前是負責人員已經找到了那開過會了沒還沒就任吧對外講法是說我們還會有河安會的人員也都一起加入沒有沒有有啊這新聞稿就直接這樣寫了不能我們準備資料比你們還要充分然後你不能講說新聞稿上面公開資訊上面不能講說沒有"},{"start":12237.709,"end":12256.363,"text":"這個專案辦公室並沒有河安會的人在裡面主委要不要我拿相關的新聞稿給你因為這是我們剛查我現在只是很理性的想要跟你確認是說現在這個選址辦公室未來要怎麼運作河安會這邊有沒有了解那結果你現在這樣講那到底是誰說謊是政院說謊來大家去看中央社的報導"},{"start":12265.377,"end":12281.787,"text":"經部核廢處置辦公室落腳板橋選址立院拼年底送政院4月4號中央社的報導其中裡面就提到居時辦公室也會從台電、核安會、學界、研覽、核電專業者參與核廢選址立法推動"},{"start":12286.587,"end":12293.269,"text":"所以你們是還沒有被通知到報告委員在經濟部徵詢專案辦公室主任的這個階段的時候曾經徵詢過一位退休的"},{"start":12302.572,"end":12329.872,"text":"核安會的副主委不過這位副主委他並沒有意願擔任那目前其實沒有核安會的人員去參加這個專案辦公室因為我們是安全監督安全監督角色跟這個業務上面會有會有是所以本席也會覺得就所以這主委這為什麼本席會今天提出來其實本席還準備其他問題也是要問就說這樣子我們會不會有球員兼裁判的狀況"},{"start":12331.124,"end":12357.123,"text":"核安會如果說要派人因為這個是正式的新聞稿4月4號中央社發出來的新聞報導就講說要延攬相關的人士進入到這個辦公室他講的不是說主任要是核安會的人派他講的是說未來運作要由相關不管台電學界以及核安會要有人員共同參與那這樣子我就會想問說那如果說選址出來完之後又再交給核安會審查"},{"start":12358.004,"end":12374.881,"text":"那核安會是不是又角色多重一方面你是專業的判斷那一方面你又加入這個選舉辦公室那在選舉辦公室裡面你要用什麼樣的身份來給予什麼樣的意見所以核安會並沒有人參與所以那這樣看起來這個新聞是假新聞"},{"start":12375.953,"end":12397.067,"text":"要不要做個澄清可以啊可以做澄清那是前副主委曾經被證明過並不是陳副主委嘛他現在講前副主委前任的副主委前任的副主委曾經被證明過但本席現在講的是說報導裡面這也是我們看到的時候就會認為是說何安會你是站在專業審查的角度"},{"start":12397.887,"end":12423.267,"text":"你的角色不應該錯亂如果說新聞是錯的請澄清請要求澄清尤其是中央社也是我們相關的半官方機關如果說連中央社的新聞稿中央社新聞出來都會有錯誤的資訊的話那真的是假消息假新聞滿天飛啊好 我會請中央社更正好 謝謝主委"},{"start":12424.438,"end":12429.124,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝洪孟凱委員主委請回我們接下來請張琦凱委員"},{"start":12452.622,"end":12456.786,"text":"主席,請陳主委好,有請陳主委主委你好,各位好這三個禮拜,我們台灣就是非核家園了民進黨這幾年已經把核一廢掉了核二廢掉了,核三廠到了5月17號又廢掉了,因為這樣子"},{"start":12478.669,"end":12504.017,"text":"我們的台電發電成本一年要增加一千億更嚴重的 民進黨如果繼續在匯合繼續在黨重啟核電會有幾個很嚴重的後果第一個 我們電價會繼續變貴第二個 會影響到我們人民的生命跟健康因為空污越來越嚴重"},{"start":12505.814,"end":12532.116,"text":"核能是低碳甚至是無碳的結果現在都是用天然氣跟燒煤來取代這全台灣的民眾都是受影響的我記得執政黨包括民進黨的立委今天在這邊問政都要負很大的責任如果有人因為空污身體健康受影響生命受到影響民進黨跟民進黨立法委員要負很大的責任另外也造成我們產業的發展我們的碳費變貴了"},{"start":12536.231,"end":12562.32,"text":"對不對 因為你燒天然氣嘛 燒煤嘛所以從剛剛講的電費從健康 生命安全一直到產業發展民進黨如果繼續在廢核在擋核能的重啟 後果是非常嚴重的我記得這全民去跟民進黨討公道好 民進黨一直在造謠今天是核安會的這個業務報告主委我請問一下"},{"start":12563.922,"end":12587.692,"text":"我們台灣核能到底安不安全我先給你回答之前我先給大家看一下國際原子能總署啊曾經對全世界的這個核電廠做過一個評比台灣啊是最安全的第六名對不對各位我們核電安全是全世界有名的對不對對嘛"},{"start":12590.711,"end":12618.935,"text":"不只點頭 清楚跟全台灣的民眾講民進黨為了黨核能的配合一直在汙名化我們的核能安全台灣的這三座核電廠對我們經濟發展提供了多大的一個貢獻我們多少這麼好的核能的人才被你們這樣汙名化我們清清楚楚 注意 跟大家講國際原子能充足我們這全世界不只排名在第六我們的安全一直都被國際是肯定的"},{"start":12620.811,"end":12640.637,"text":"他做了非計劃性能力損失的這個因素啊代表一個電廠經過大修以後基礎如果再啟動是可以馬上維持這個安定滿載的電力的這個能力這個能力啊叫OUCL這個數值啊只要是越低表示它是越可靠性越高的第一個它是越安全的台灣擺地上結果民進黨長久以來為了要肺核"},{"start":12646.776,"end":12669.376,"text":"汙名化我們的河岸 也汙名化我們這麼多的人才剛剛在講 我們的人才都快被挖走了 對不對主委要把人才留下來 好不好第二個 民進黨一直說很不安全我們包括發生九一大地震 我們的核電有出現問題嗎剛剛主委講了一個很重要的全世界的核能大國 不管是美國 日本 法國"},{"start":12671.069,"end":12696.594,"text":"人家都很注意安全啊 科技一直在進步對不對而且一直有安全原念嘛憑什麼說我們的核能是不安全的只是因為民進黨一直在廢了 他們還停留在上個世紀好 第二個核廢料的問題我在去年的七月份啊 還實地去河山去考察他們清楚跟我講 我們的燃料棒"},{"start":12699.568,"end":12724.856,"text":"那個注意我們燃料棒你剛講的一句話很重要燃料棒反應爐用完之後一年半用完之後拿出來就放到燃料池嘛對不對對不對是河山廠清楚跟我講我們屏東還可以再用四年四到五年所以燃力是沒有問題的第二更重要的是我剛才說的啦全世界現在在處理核廢料都要怎麼處理"},{"start":12726.431,"end":12742.613,"text":"先放燃料池對不對後來乾式雌蚊草對不對美國這樣做 日本這樣做 法國這樣做全世界都這樣做和未來都沒有問題只有民進黨說有問題民進黨是什麼 警禮之蛙 愛郎自大還是禮盲 還是造謠"},{"start":12747.995,"end":12767.564,"text":"而且最離譜的一點民進黨把核味料講得這麼恐怖我問一下那目前核一廠核二廠核三廠的核配料如果像民進黨這樣說了沒辦法處理要放倒你們不用處理嗎當然是主委講的嘛科技越來越進步會有全世界現在就放在乾式的儲存草裡面嘛對不對全世界都這樣做"},{"start":12769.09,"end":12797.847,"text":"台灣當然也是這樣做啊請不要再汙名化好我簡單的因為主席已經站起來了我簡單的講幾個童子賢講啊全世界都在用核能他說啊用核能可以幫台灣省下大概幾兆的經費美國鼓勵員都直接講了美國願意在核能方面幫我們全世界都在返回核能只有民進黨現在在對撞你是跟全世界潮流在對撞跟美國在對撞欸"},{"start":12799.335,"end":12818.163,"text":"剛核廢料我剛講過了連我問了外交部部長林佳龍他現在高官說這個談判啊可以找美國 美國都可以處理為什麼美國就找他們來幫我們處理核廢料嘛對不對也是個辦法嘛 左右點頭嘛 對不對好 剛在講民意台灣民眾黨最近做了一個民調"},{"start":12820.429,"end":12841.962,"text":"問說要不要使用核能 支持的64.5%不支持的23.8% 要用的壓倒性的勝利而且我們之前還有以核揚利耶民進黨不是說要重視民意嗎 要有共識嗎所有的民調裡面每次看出來要繼續用核電都被撤過六成而且要經過公投咧好 最後做一個簡單的這個結論昨天啦 我們的賴總統說"},{"start":12847.349,"end":12865.726,"text":"不排除新的這個核能的這個技術然後他講到三個 核安 核廢料跟社會共識剛剛我 注意我們剛剛討論完我們台灣的核安是安全的嘛 對不對這個有嘛 有解決嘛第二個核廢料可不可以處理可以處理嘛 對不對全世界都是這樣處理嘛 對不對"},{"start":12867.179,"end":12890.846,"text":"對不對 對嗎全世界現在會有共同的處理方式對嘛 至少兩個 我覺得你今天講的兩個很重要全世界 美國 日本 法國 全世界先進國家都這樣處理第二個 科技在進步嘛甘蔗 春草就可以用五十年耶 對不對當然這兩個都可以處理啊所以河岸可以處理啊 河輝道可以處理啊社會共識 每次民調都超過六成所以包括我們提的河山重啟的這個"},{"start":12893.783,"end":12910.02,"text":"為什麼要公投就是要加強社會共識嘛所以這三個老蔣都不是問題最後做個結論請民進黨如果繼續你要再黨和山我們修核安法球還是在民進黨的手上啊是不是你已經超過五分鐘了一分鐘抱歉抱歉沒有辦法沒有辦法我講到核安法"},{"start":12911.562,"end":12915.183,"text":"我們修好完之後 要不要用核能還是民進黨 請民進黨想清楚你要讓電費繼續漲嗎 要繼續強害我們的健康嗎用燃煤跟燃這個天然氣來傷害我們的健康嗎然後讓我們的產業受到衝擊嗎如果民進黨不解決 請民眾直接找民進黨去負責好 謝謝 謝謝 謝謝張七開委員主委請回好 我們接下來請徐富奎委員"},{"start":12949.846,"end":12953.032,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們陳主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":12960.773,"end":12979.666,"text":"主委我剛剛一直有聽到主委針對我們今天的議題一直在答覆的部分我強烈的懷疑這個主委的態度有沒有依法行政主委你認為自己是不是應該當一個依法行政的主委"},{"start":12982.555,"end":13000.635,"text":"主委請回答是那請教主委我們今年5月17號核三廠二繞機除役的依據是什麼是依據我們核管法當年核電的使用年限是40年因為40年到期了"},{"start":13002.174,"end":13016.047,"text":"對 那是不是到今年5月17號是不是40年已經到了是的 是的所以是不是要依法除役是必須停機除役好 但是我們很遺憾包含剛剛我們在野黨幾位委員提到的部分"},{"start":13017.208,"end":13036.762,"text":"我相信這個我們所有的行政機關大家都根據依法行政的態度在處理事情那過去我們在2002年的時候國民黨跟當時的親民黨立委修法通過了這樣子的一個相關的一個規定那就是要求"},{"start":13038.163,"end":13060.563,"text":"在這個1984年新建的河山廠這個有做一個實驗到就必須要做一個管制的一個措施但是最近突然又不知要吃死龜翻井竟然又提出這個研議要可以研議20年的規定但是依目前我們河山廠相關的一些設備也好 核廢料的處理主委你認為可以就這樣貿然直接研議20年嗎"},{"start":13062.411,"end":13090.091,"text":"不能要經過評估要經過評估但是剛剛我很遺憾聽到主委好像並沒有很嚴正的把這個相關的一些規範跟態度說得很清楚我現在想更清楚一點40年前當時的原子能委員會合法執照是40年的運轉執照那是根據40年之內它原判是安全的"},{"start":13091.261,"end":13096.521,"text":"40年之後當時是沒有做任何評估所以40年以後是不知道"},{"start":13097.594,"end":13124.701,"text":"所以四天喉號要延長使用的話一定要經過延期的評估好主委那所以我們根據這個核子反應器設施的這個運轉執照的一個審查辦法第16條如果核電廠要研議必須在執照有效期限屆滿前5年到15年前就必須提出相關的一個評估對不對對是的但是我們並沒有做這樣的一個評估是因為我們認為時間到就應該做廚藝嘛是不是"},{"start":13127.282,"end":13152.091,"text":"當初政策是如此那現在即使我們要開放要重新走向一個重新啟動也必須要走相關的程序是不是難道可以用一個公投用一個公投就決定我們屏東人的命運嗎這必須要經過修法之後還要台電根據需要提出申請然後我們和安會才可以處理申請案件"},{"start":13152.912,"end":13179.975,"text":"好 主委我還是要再提醒你一件事情上個禮拜我在院會有特別強調包含我們許多的專家學者包含台大的退休教授陳文山都有提到我們河山場目前所在地的部分有一個橫村斷層的部分這個斷層長度高達51公里一旦如果發生錯動可能引發規模7以上的地震這樣子的一個危險的因素 河南會難道不曉得嗎"},{"start":13180.675,"end":13185.916,"text":"核安會已經責成台電做成評估要不要請再補充一下"},{"start":13186.604,"end":13215.084,"text":"好 跟委員說明喔那有關橫村誕辰在日本福島事故後已經要求台天公司要納入評估那也依照評估的結果針對店長的安全系統跟燃料池等進行評估跟強化好 那既然你們都有在做評估剛剛為什麼我聽到的部分你們並沒有很義正嚴實的告訴在野黨的委員這樣子的他們的質詢能量是有問題的根本不顧我們屏東人的生命安全"},{"start":13217.128,"end":13242.141,"text":"請你們拿出你們的態度好不好主委5月17號該廚藝就廚藝不能透過這樣子一個密屋的公投就要決定我們屏東人5月17號一定會停機然後甚至包含這個核廢料的處理我相信都有很多專業的問題要討論不是今天講說你一句話講說可以放四年就放四年說什麼台電的人講的我們從來沒有聽過這個版本"},{"start":13244.216,"end":13254.007,"text":"這樣的錯誤的訊息 請不要以訛傳訛好不好我們一切都依法行政對 我們會依法行政好 請荷蘭會拿出你們應有的態度 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13257.165,"end":13279.267,"text":"好 謝謝徐富奎委員好 我們那個主委請回接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請高金素梅委員高金素梅高金素梅委員不在我們請何欣淳委員何欣淳何欣淳委員不在我們請翁曉琳委員"},{"start":13287.863,"end":13290.315,"text":"主席好 在這邊有請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":13298.71,"end":13325.447,"text":"主委好本席因为过去我也参与过这个核安会的相关的原子能法的研究所以呢本席基本上认为原能会过去叫原能会现在核安会其实从成立以来至今下来就是依法行政我基本上对于核安会依法行政而且秉持专业去审查相关核电厂的这个安全措施本席是很有信心的我在这边想请教主委"},{"start":13327.208,"end":13331.611,"text":"你們作為台電核電廠的主管機關應該是最知道台灣三座核電廠的安全性如何請問你們在這40年來的檢查過程當中有沒有曾經出現過有核電廠因為設備或是營運管理的缺失而必須達到要關廠停機的這樣子的一個案例你們有曾經有做過這樣的討論嗎"},{"start":13351.863,"end":13357.361,"text":"沒有 核電廠是必須符合安全要求的"},{"start":13358.448,"end":13387.188,"text":"核电厂也必须安全的这是核安会的职责是简单来说就是从原子能委员会成立至今到改组现在是核安会在你们过去40年的检验当中你们都没有看到发生过核一核二核三厂极为危险的情况简单来说就是你们认为核电厂是安全的吗台湾的核电厂是安全的吗"},{"start":13387.915,"end":13415.75,"text":"如果核安會認為核電廠有安全疑慮的話核安會一定會下令停機檢查是好那停機檢查之後就還是可以運轉嘛所以簡單來說就是民進黨口口聲聲說核電廠不安全的這樣子的一個說法從數據上面來看從核安會過去的依法行政執行的安全檢查來看基本上就是一個錯誤的說法"},{"start":13417.847,"end":13444.333,"text":"台湾的核电厂是安全的,so far到现在台湾的核电厂是经过团会的跟以前原灯会的严厉监督之下我们是可以达到安全的要求好,很好那么我们知道其实现在有关于这个立法院正在讨论核电厂研议条例的相关的修法那我们也看到就是其他的国家不管是美国、日本"},{"start":13444.793,"end":13463.783,"text":"還有更多的國家其實對於核電廠的研議早就已經開始在做了像美國那麼甚至就是已經以20年為單位可以陸續的向後研議那麼日本呢也是已經批准了多座的機組可以延長運轉到60年請問主委如果說我們台灣的核電廠研議再延一個10年20年您認為安全上面會有疑慮嗎"},{"start":13472.947,"end":13476.431,"text":"只要經過評估才知道那麼請問何安慧現在有沒有開始做核電廠研議之後的安全技術標準的相關研議"},{"start":13485.506,"end":13502.201,"text":"河安會有我們的研議的評估標準所以對於現在我們的核電廠研議有可能研議那麼對於台電如果有提出研議申請那麼河安會這邊已經準備好了相關的安全技術評估標準嗎"},{"start":13505.559,"end":13532.932,"text":"台電在以前提出核電廠研議的申請當時我們就已經審查的差不多了什麼時候提出過核電廠研議的申請98年98年的時候曾經有提出過所以那時候核安會就已經做過相關的安全技術標準的制定是不是你們已經有一套安全檢查的標準"},{"start":13533.928,"end":13561.181,"text":"是嗎是的我們有參考美國的做法所以當時這套標準到現在還可以適用嗎應該還可以適用吧這個安全技術標準基本上應該不會改變的太多所以本席認為說其實因為現在立法院在野黨可以說是立法院的多數立委基本上都很支持我們的核電廠必須要研議我們會推動相關的修法"},{"start":13561.781,"end":13590.048,"text":"雖然說之後核電廠到底能不能研議台電能不能真正的提出申請關鍵點還是在經濟部跟行政院可是我想核安會這裡應該要做好準備因為隨時隨地都有可能這個同意和台電的核電廠的研議申請那麼不能講說核電廠這個提出了申請之後呢可是核安會沒有做好準備那我認為這是極其不妥的所以呢也希望"},{"start":13591.449,"end":13613.351,"text":"主委这边能够代理核安会的同仁然后好好针对研议之后的安全技术标准然后提出一个完整的评估报告好谢谢谢谢委员好谢谢翁晓琳委员主委请回再来请郑天才郑天才郑天才委员不在"},{"start":13616.124,"end":13640.156,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢關於今天的會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速於書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"16617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16617","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e730853615cfad272ad9f551ce5fa921fbd9360bdedb08522d1f2da350fc241f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次公聽會（事由：召開「因應房價高漲，為有效協助租屋族與首購族，研擬提高房屋租金扣除額及首購族之房貸利息支出比照房屋租金列為特別扣除額」之修法公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-24T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:09:00+08:00","duration":9525,"影片長度":"02:38:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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原理提高房屋租金扣除及首購組的房貸利息支出避兆房屋租金列為特別扣除的供應費"},{"start":1996.323,"end":2015.813,"text":"我想現在大家都知道房價雖然我們這個央行有八次的信用管制的措施以及財政部在清安組首購之後有一連串的接近打草房的措施可是房價一樣高居不跌"},{"start":2018.394,"end":2038.64,"text":"那在這種情況之下其實很多做生意的啦或者是租屋的啦其實都面臨到一個租金不斷的漲特別我們看到這個房價在漲的時候租金漲那很多的小商店他們這個賺的錢不多可是"},{"start":2039.66,"end":2054.089,"text":"去面臨的租金常常要漲以及有些的中小企業那他們也是面臨到同樣的問題所以因此呢有黨團提案把這個租金列入"},{"start":2055.009,"end":2073.277,"text":"要特別扣除本來就有那他把額度提高了以及所構築這方面的我們就這兩個題目一起來談所以今天的題目是談到租金談到是一般住宅的租金第二個是有關於企業在租金這一部分"},{"start":2074.457,"end":2087.165,"text":"我們可以看得到有不少企業因為房租不斷的上漲被迫歇業或者被迫離開他們的地方這種情況都非常的多所以我們今天就是開這樣的公聽會那麼現在開始的在請各位發言之前我們"},{"start":2093.393,"end":2116.668,"text":"就以下宣布每位專家學者十分鐘結束前一分鐘會按您的提醒原則上我們今天會有立委會出席那專家學者的簽到出去發言如果委員要發言請到主席台登記那委員是每位五分鐘全部發言完畢以後行政機關就"},{"start":2118.389,"end":2134.836,"text":"業管的全責現在就是財政部政務次長這裡做一個整體的回應現在首先我們請第一位的專家吳俊智吳俊智律師發表意見好不好請10分鐘10分鐘聽到了鈴聲就是1分鐘"},{"start":2141.03,"end":2158.608,"text":"那在座的就是各位就是先進還有各位專家學家好那很榮幸來參加就是今天的題目那我發現說今天要處理的題目首先就是它其實有蠻多面向那關於租金這個扣除是否要提高的問題"},{"start":2159.609,"end":2175.158,"text":"那我覺得會有一個問題就是說我們現在的問題其實反而不是說租金到底要提高到多少而是租金列舉扣除額有沒有人用它以前是列舉扣除額嘛那現在移到特別扣除額之後到底有沒有人在用"},{"start":2177.281,"end":2199.815,"text":"對 那我們都知道說現實上很多大部分的情況是受限於房東的限制所以租金列舉扣數額根本就沒有人用那你提高的金額提高從原本的18萬提高到25萬那結果是不是還會變成是一樣的情況那有沒有可能說在租賃市場上呢有讓這個房東的租金更透明"},{"start":2200.515,"end":2215.572,"text":"那另外一種可能是說因為我剛剛有看到其他專家學員的建議有可能是說給房東一些像是租稅大赦或是說一些租稅優惠的方式但是這個部分我是比較懷疑說就是這個"},{"start":2216.633,"end":2236.816,"text":"就是即使說就是會有一些優惠但是我也是懷疑說房東會不會說因為有這些優惠那馬上就是說願意誠實去申報因為不只說是申報租賃所得的問題那就是當他列報租賃所得之後那他的這個建物他可能就是必須沒有辦法去適用自用住宅稅率"},{"start":2238.263,"end":2266.002,"text":"所以另外一方面我覺得是說可能可能就是國稅局這方面可以加強查核的力道如果說在房東大部分的租賃所的都沒有辦法實際去隱藏的情況之下那對他們來講就是申報申報就已經沒有差了那這種情況呢房客的部分他能夠去申報租賃所的可能性那應該就可以更多的提升"},{"start":2267.793,"end":2290.54,"text":"那如果是在這樣子的情況之下我可能就會贊成說好那我們租金所得的特別扣除額可以提高但至於提高到多少我認為說他可能並不是一個就是目前一定是定額的概念那這個可能還需要財政部來評估說按照我們現在的物價指數多少的金額就是會是比較合適的"},{"start":2292.392,"end":2320.902,"text":"那另外就是說房貸利息扣除額的部分因為房貸跟租金所得的扣除額它的功能其實都是在於居住權保障那它基本上來說也是擇一行四的概念所以當我們已經把租金所得的扣除額移到特別扣除額的時候那房貸的扣除額繼續放在利息扣除額它在立法體力上就會變得有一點違和"},{"start":2322.702,"end":2342.408,"text":"那當然如果把它移到特別扣除額也不是不行但是這個時候就會出現一個問題就是說原本能夠適用房貸扣除額的人他們會不會可以扣得太過多因為就是代表說他們原本就是標準扣除額可以使用那特別扣除額的部分呢他還可以繼續使用就是這30萬"},{"start":2344.489,"end":2368.4,"text":"那這兩個會不會導致說它會有重複的扣除的部分所以說會不會有一個可能就是說在特別扣除額的部分呢我們限於首購族的部分那如果不是首購族的房貸扣除額那依然要回歸到業局扣除額那對他們再做更加的限制我覺得這也是一個可能啦"},{"start":2370.663,"end":2393.697,"text":"那至於說房租調漲的問題剛剛看到就是其實有蠻多學者都比較說各國的立法例那各國立法例上其實很多都對房租調漲有一定的限制例如說就是調漲到3%或者是說每年就是調漲10%之類的但是這個是不是說就是適用於所有房屋"},{"start":2395.117,"end":2422.864,"text":"那我覺得其實也是就是有商議的空間因為說在有一些地方就是如果假設說是身多周少的情況那會不會說房東覺得說好你限制我調漲那我寧願不出租了或是說我會租給說就是可以接受我調漲的人那是不是有可能說我們把它區分成說就是都市的房屋以及非都市的房屋"},{"start":2423.755,"end":2449.371,"text":"那以荷蘭的歷史來講的話他們會把房屋就是分成不同的等級然後不同的分數那這不同的等級他們就可以設定不同的調漲幅度那例如說如果我們是非都市地區土地那非都市地區土地你還限制它的調漲幅度的話他會不會覺得說那我租給你好像意義不大我乾脆租給工廠算了"},{"start":2451.007,"end":2478.105,"text":"所以基本上來說我覺得這個部分可能我們基本上來說我們是不反對說有租金調漲的限制但是這個調漲的限制可能並不太適合說就是用一刀切的方式那這個調漲的限制呢可能我們一方面可以分成都市土地跟非都市土地那一方面呢就是即使是都市土地裡面那我們也可以按照它的需求那設定不同的等級然後來設定它調漲的上限"},{"start":2479.042,"end":2506.388,"text":"那另外一點就是說每年調漲的上限呢它也不一定要是一樣因為就是有時候租金有時候這個房租調漲的原因呢它可能是來自於說今年例如說物價指數的調整今年如果就是物價指數調整非常高但是呢你不讓房東調漲好像也並不是很有道理所以這個是不是有可能說配合物價指數來做一定的搭配"},{"start":2507.554,"end":2524.391,"text":"然後另外有可能是說每個地方政府或是每個縣市他們在調漲的額度上面是不是有可能就是有採樣權這個我也是覺得說在制度設計上面是有可能可以去思考的地方"},{"start":2529.195,"end":2548.116,"text":"那另外就是其實我們目前的法規裡面它本身是有就是租金上限的限制在土地法第97條第一項裡面它其實是有租金不可以超過年息10%的限制那大家其實應該都知道這一條根本沒有人在用"},{"start":2549.93,"end":2574.946,"text":"那為什麼沒有人在用呢?實際上呢當房東的租金就是真的超過這個額度之後那你能夠做的事就是地方政府把它降回就是百分之十但是對房客來講他不會因為說這個差距而特別去跟地方政府就是例如說去申訴然後要求去調降租金因為他能夠獲得的就是這一年的租金調降而已"},{"start":2580.989,"end":2595.936,"text":"所以如果說我們真的要設定這樣的限制的話那是不是說就是他有一定的實意或者是說如果說真的要這樣做的話那是不是說勢必可能會搭配一些處罰性的規定"},{"start":2599.338,"end":2626.563,"text":"但是你要搭配這些處罰性的規定的話難度可能就會提高因為租金跟我們的房屋買賣它是不一樣的情況就是房屋買賣它是需要就是它是需要就是土地登記然後實價登錄的但是租金畢竟它只是一個契約那有沒有可能說因為這樣的限制而導致說就是我們的房東變成說更加的就是防禦性租賃的情況"},{"start":2627.883,"end":2655.271,"text":"他們可能說會不會說我寧願就是租給一些更短期的租客或者說我的租約全部都是變成一年一千雖然說我們很多租約確實是一年一千沒有錯所以如果說就是要有這樣的限制的話我是覺得說它的條件可能就是要更嚴格然後就是說來適應不同的物價指數的情況我們可能就是必須要有搭配不同的配套"},{"start":2657.011,"end":2658.212,"text":"那就是謝謝大家好 謝謝吳俊志律師的高見我們現在會請漢邦聯絡會計事事務所的顧問葉祐義 葉顧問請好 主席 各位委員然後各位先進 各位學者專家 大家好"},{"start":2684.455,"end":2699.595,"text":"我是漢邦聯合會計師事務所EOE顧問我們今天要提供的這個討論的內容我們是就討論提綱的第二題是否有效規範房屋租金訂立合理條幅以兼顧租賃雙方權益的這個題目"},{"start":2701.878,"end":2726.408,"text":"我們就住宅案例來提供一些研究資料分享給大家做一些參考那在書面資料的部分應該是在最後面大概倒數五張的部分有個四住宅案例那這邊會有一些簡單的講稿那後面有附件那因為時間的關係附件就留給在座的學者專家跟委員做一些立法的這個參考那我們今天要講的是這個"},{"start":2727.648,"end":2753.175,"text":"租人住宅的租金到底可不可以來做一些合法管制的部分尤其是漲幅或者是說現在新聞大家在炒的什麼叫做合理的租金的這個部分首先是像4月18號大家都有看到一個新聞高雄的日式的通口飯糰這個租屋糾紛的新聞這個房東在後來他有出來講一句話很重要"},{"start":2753.695,"end":2780.169,"text":"他說我後來才知道租金低於同區域店面的平均租金所以在我們法律人的這個角度聽起來他是希望能調漲租金所以會有一些不愉快的情緒造成這次的新聞糾紛的事件那這個租金的問題早在疫情前就早就發酵過了那疫情前台北市就有太多的這些傳統的民店商店他是沒有辦法負擔這個租金"},{"start":2782.13,"end":2802.53,"text":"租約報期他就不續約了以我的年紀來看的話我記得就是像六福皇宮像永福樓像這個城中的金石堂的書局這個在重慶南路那疫情之後這個台北市因為像我喜歡逛這個書店台北市重慶南路本來號稱書店一條街現在大型書店只剩下哪一間"},{"start":2803.371,"end":2824.659,"text":"三民書局因為他窮的只剩下不動產因為這個董事長很厲害早期他懂得買不動產所以沒有不動產的這些書局全部都消失了那當然我們會說這個在自由經濟的這個商業環境的這個影響之下那產業更替本來就是一個正常的現象可是呢我們"},{"start":2825.699,"end":2840.605,"text":"從結果論來看,從高昂的租金來看會造成商圈的沒落跟移動最有名的就是東區,台北市的東區台北市的東區有一些比較小型的賣衣服、賣化妝品的商店因為租金太貴了"},{"start":2841.385,"end":2864.07,"text":"全部往旁邊擠,往中山區去擠所以這個高昂的租金其實對於現在人民的生活也產生了一些問題那在商辦用的不動產租賃,這個我覺得問題更複雜這個我們在後面的游律師會幫我們做一些說明那這個政府更難以用這個法律去介入這個自由經濟市場"},{"start":2866.17,"end":2882.563,"text":"對於我們我今天負責的題目這個關於這個租賃住宅包括居住爭議居住人權的這個部分其實我們早就有一個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例其實只要稍微動一兩個條文其實就可以保障到"},{"start":2884.043,"end":2907.799,"text":"這個租賃、住宅租金的漲幅也好合理的租金的定義也好這個都可以做一些設計那接下來我們這邊所研究的包括香港、韓國、美國、加州、德國等相關的這些有做一些規範的這些國家跟地區的法制來簡單跟大家做說明首先第一個是香港的部分"},{"start":2909.06,"end":2924.37,"text":"那香港的部分他主要規定在業主與租客綜合條例的這個部分那他在租賃的這個期間他是規定租金不能上調那在規範的這個規管週期中次期的這個租賃的租金加幅"},{"start":2924.99,"end":2941.376,"text":"不得高於他的官方單位這個是猜想物業估價署的這個他們會就私人住宅的這個部分會公佈一些指數啊百分比啊做一些控管那我們這邊研究的資料他的上限漲幅上限是10%那那個"},{"start":2944.497,"end":2966.035,"text":"他可以依照當時的狀況去做一些調整那第二個是韓國的部分那我們只針對韓國的住宅租金管制來說明一下他是有一個叫做住宅租賃的保護法他規定租金的調漲必須間隔一年那這個幅度不可以超過上一期的就是前一年租金的5%"},{"start":2967.336,"end":2982.97,"text":"好 那在我講稿的第一頁最下面這第三個是美國加州的部分美國加州因為它是一個判立法的這個地方就沒有一個比較像大陸法系的這個法律的部分好 我們找到資料是它除了一些特定房屋以外"},{"start":2983.59,"end":3009.853,"text":"住宅租金的這個漲幅一樣它是每一年也就是每12個月不可以超過生活成本百分比的變化加上5%然後以10%為上限那它這邊是一年可以調整兩次所以看起來各國的一些規範跟期限都有不同的一些規定在我的講稿第二頁最上方我最後就講一個德國的部分"},{"start":3010.673,"end":3028.014,"text":"德國的部分在他的BGP也就是民法的這些規定裡面他其實對於房屋市場緊張的地區的住宅租賃他有做一些基礎的規定他很特別在這個民法裡面有做一些規定他在2014年之後如果你是大"},{"start":3029.295,"end":3051.463,"text":"2014年之後蓋成的或者是大量整修的這些住宅的這個部分他的租賃的租金他是規定他當地有個參考租金的你不可以超過他的10%那在租金調漲的部分他是規定說三年不得超過20%那他當地的州政府更有權將部分地區他如果覺得"},{"start":3053.585,"end":3061.254,"text":"這個我們剛剛講的房屋市場緊張地區就是太多人密集的這個部分他可以把上限調降到這個15%所以從簡單四個地區國家的這個法令來看"},{"start":3067.22,"end":3093.403,"text":"各國政府他還是會有依法適度去管制這個住宅租金調漲的這個部分那當然他們會依照他們自己的包括一些條件法令的環境他去設計他們自己的百分比跟漲幅的這個公式好那這個部分呢應該是可以來解決出租人跟成租人在吵的一件事情什麼叫做我這個區域的合理租金"},{"start":3094.204,"end":3115.704,"text":"我是怎麼樣的情況下我要漲多少錢是不是像現在一樣房東說了算這個關於人民住宅的這個部分就居住人權來看我們其實是可以來做一些設計的那台灣這邊我們有看到行政院主計總署他有公告租金指數他在消費者物價房屋類指數的這個項目裡面"},{"start":3117.085,"end":3145.448,"text":"其實我看得到這樣的一個相關的一些可參考的政府單位的這個依據那這個其實我們可以把它利用來做這個租金漲幅的上下百分比的一些包括基數包括百分比的一些調整像我們剛剛所研究的四個國家的包括地區的部分可能有看到5%到10%甚至到20%這個就由政府跟專家學者來做一個妥善的"},{"start":3146.048,"end":3168.571,"text":"包括被套設計跟一些經濟環境的一些考量因為時間的關係我把最主要的修法參考的資料各國的立法資料我寫在附件的短文裡面這個包括註腳裡面都有各國法令的依據這個是我們希望能提供給立法院委員們跟專家學者來做一個"},{"start":3169.632,"end":3192.528,"text":"討論的依據如果能用這個現有的租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例來做一個適當的修法其實蠻快的不用再去制定一部這個耗費周章的新法我想這個應該是可以來比較快速的來解決我們現在包括住宅租賃的這個租金漲幅的這個問題以上是我的分享報告謝謝大家"},{"start":3194.146,"end":3216.401,"text":"我請教玉姑妳的重點是妳剛剛後面就說只要修訂租賃是住宅市場發展期管理條例就是規範一年最多調漲一次而且漲幅不可以超過現有租金訂賃時候它的CPI比例的增加率不可超過5%"},{"start":3218.243,"end":3241.725,"text":"對這是我們個人事務所的建議因為5%是什麼的5%就是我們是拿兩個東西來比一個是行政院主計總署租金指數它是一個依據再來就是調漲租金時因為這個我們在換約的時候也許我可能是1月我可能是4月我可能是6月這時候再來看"},{"start":3243.267,"end":3257.804,"text":"這個主計總數的指數因為可能是這個首先它會有年度的指數那再來我們如果是假設我現在是四月我四月換月看看行政院能不能提供大概三月底的指數我們拿這兩個指數來做一個比較來做一個設計"},{"start":3263.211,"end":3281.152,"text":"這個增加率的部分其實大家可以想一下啦就是哪兩個的參考就對了也可以取高也可以取低也可以取平均值這個要看政府對於介入的角色的深度力量來看然後以人民的角度來看這個比率當然越低越好"},{"start":3282.433,"end":3309.923,"text":"那是我的話我也想寫百分之一啊對不對可是這個會受到很多的這個可能有房子的房東做很多的一些意見或抗議不動產一些業者的抗議這個要到時候要靠大家來做一些專業的討論好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝我們業務顧問也是會計師嗎?不好意思我是法律顧問我是法律博士出身"},{"start":3312.575,"end":3314.057,"text":"各位先進 各位學者 專家 大家好"},{"start":3334.363,"end":3356.2,"text":"我想就今天公聽會的題目首先本席要提出幾項我們最近數據的資料第一個就是依據主計總署在3月公布的今年2月全台的房租指數是高達108.06又再創新高年增率也高達2.56%以連續19個月的年增率都超過2%"},{"start":3362.845,"end":3377.65,"text":"第二個數據就是內政部在今年1月所發布的去年3月到12月的租金的平均數結果顯示全國平均租金雖然微幅下降了0.8%從3月的9093元減少到12月的9016元"},{"start":3385.512,"end":3410.34,"text":"但是我們看到其中台北市它的平均租金是高達13054元是最高全國最高新北市則是12923元次之最後的一項數據就是今年二月主計總數的公布資料就是2024年國人的經常性薪資的中位數是37274元"},{"start":3414.921,"end":3430.675,"text":"我們從剛剛本席所提到的各項數據我們得到的結論就是民眾每個月他的房屋租金所造成的生活經濟壓力其實是有增無減的以台北市為例子"},{"start":3431.596,"end":3451.073,"text":"房屋租金的支出已經是佔據民眾經常性支出的三分之一所以就算您有最高八千元的房屋租金的補貼但是同樣我們有高達百分之十三點五的經常性的薪資收入是要用在他的租屋需求上面"},{"start":3451.934,"end":3475.525,"text":"更不用說可以領有八千元租金的補貼戶其實都是中低收入戶所以他的薪資其實這些中低收入戶的薪資根本沒有到達我們剛才所講的國人的薪資的中位數以台北市的中低收入戶得到他的定義他的平均薪資只有兩萬零三百七十九元"},{"start":3476.425,"end":3500.543,"text":"所以我們今天公聽會所談的為有效協助我們的租屋族我們應該再修法提高房屋租金的扣除額確實它是有它討論以及調整的必要因為我們除了房屋租金的支出之外其實我們的民眾還有飲食、交通、教育等各項生活需求的支出所以"},{"start":3502.504,"end":3522.251,"text":"要這些支出以外你算要存款那更是不可能所以我們對於提高房屋租金的扣除和我們不是單純的從租屋的角度去看而是要全面的去觀察全面性的去從他的生活經濟的整體壓力去做考量"},{"start":3523.271,"end":3547.018,"text":"至於我們所購足的房貸利息支出是否應該比照房屋租金列為特別扣除額我想在財政部的專報中提到113年中央銀行等五大銀行新成做的購屋貸款利率是2.171%利息支出30萬元的貸款本金落在大概1400萬"},{"start":3549.339,"end":3564.032,"text":"對一般的首購族以足使用但本席就想問問財政部如果以內政部的單坪房價的價格在台北市1400萬可以買到幾坪的房子"},{"start":3564.946,"end":3582.412,"text":"我算了一下答案是只能買到19.15坪若扣除公設30%在台北市實際只能買到13.615坪的居住空間那我們現在少子化所以我們要鼓勵國人要生小孩"},{"start":3583.112,"end":3601.45,"text":"那就算只生一個小孩13.615坪其實他的居住空間非常非常的小所以難怪我們看到台北市我們現在看到一個狀況就是有脫北的人潮因此財政部的舉例完全是脫離現實"},{"start":3603.352,"end":3625.639,"text":"所以對於首購族的房貸利息我們是不是也應該訂出一個金額數字並列為特別扣除額讓我們的國人更有餘力去買真正適合全家居住的房子當然這個就是有需要討論與增訂的空間所以本席希望我們的政府單位在看到民眾的需求的時候我們應該從客觀的數據去推演實際的狀況才能夠確實了解民眾民之所苦"},{"start":3632.521,"end":3647.263,"text":"尤其未來還要面對各種國際經濟局勢的變遷例如美國的對等關稅所造成的整個物價的上漲未來我們國人的生活的影響經濟上的壓力都是存在許多的變動因素"},{"start":3647.884,"end":3671.879,"text":"因此我們政府單位應該要從更全面的角度去審慎考量我們今天公聽會兩項民生的需求而不應該以今天已經有的政策來推脫或是忽視未來民眾的需求也非常感謝今天各位先進提出我們修法的高見我們大家一起來檢討我們修法的方向以上 謝謝"},{"start":3673.561,"end":3684.369,"text":"好 謝謝李師明委員精彩的發言了下一位請金門大學海洋邊境管理學系的徐教授 請"},{"start":3697.532,"end":3716.906,"text":"主席各位先進大家好那我自己先說明一下我的這個專業背景因為我自己本身是法律學者然後專業背景在憲法所以關於今天的這個討論提綱我能夠貢獻的大概是比較法律層面的一些見解"},{"start":3717.984,"end":3737.976,"text":"那先跟大家回顧就是今天的這個討論提綱前面的這個討論提綱一最主要是牽涉到我們所得稅法的這個所謂的扣除額的一些規定那這些規定呢回顧就是在101年的時候我曾經有接受財政部的一個委託的計畫"},{"start":3739.477,"end":3763.175,"text":"那時候是因為大法官的696號解釋做成之後然後關於夫妻合併申報所得稅到底要改為哪一個制度的委託研究計畫那在當時的這個研究計畫當中我就有很大膽的提出說對於我們的所有的這些扣除額可能要做一個全面的體檢"},{"start":3764.176,"end":3790.553,"text":"那最主要的原因就是我們的稅法在所得稅裡面它是一個加護制然後當時就是被打法官696號解釋宣告違憲之後那就是要改成是否是走這個個人申報制或者是德國的責辦懲惡制那我接受了這個研究計畫那我當時提出來就是這些扣除了要做一個總體檢可是"},{"start":3792.614,"end":3811.352,"text":"後來就是沒有把它做一個完整的立法的一個動作那一直到前年前年我們有一個就是公聽會它是針對這個租金列舉的扣除額要把它改為特別扣除額的一個公聽會那我同樣被邀請了"},{"start":3812.233,"end":3828.2,"text":"在這個公聽會當中呢我大概是一個比較不一樣的一個看法也就是說當時我是極力的反對把租金扣除額列為特別扣除額的唯一的一位學者那當然也受到非常多的指教啦"},{"start":3828.76,"end":3848.371,"text":"那我必須說今天的這個題目呢其實我個人在接觸的過程當中還是本於憲法的這一個觀念要跟大家溝通一些觀念啦也就是說租金的這個列舉扣除額改為租金的特別扣除額當時我為什麼會反對最重要的原因是從憲法的觀點來看"},{"start":3852.033,"end":3871.663,"text":"這個免稅額或者扣除額它其實有輕重緩急之分它在憲法上面的保障密度其實是不一樣的那在這個前提底下呢當時我認為就是把租金的這個扣除額放在列舉的這個狀況底下從憲法來看它應該是受到比較高密度的保障的那如果認為說"},{"start":3873.024,"end":3894.831,"text":"租金的扣除額太低那可能可以考慮提高或者甚至於去提高這個所謂的標準扣除額那當時的這一個見解沒有受到大家的肯定後來修法也就變成是今天這樣子的一個法律的規定那所以今天這一個討論提綱1裡面的第一小題是否要提高租金扣除額"},{"start":3896.071,"end":3914.517,"text":"我個人認為他既然已經被修法放到了所謂的特別扣除額那這個特別扣除額延續之前的這個在列舉扣除額的年代他是怎麼決定這個12萬或者是今天的18萬我覺得這個部分呢我們可能要去爬梳他的立法理由"},{"start":3915.197,"end":3935.804,"text":"那在我們現在改為特別扣除額的情況底下他的18萬呢在立法理由裡面明確的寫出來他是參考108年到111年的行政院主計總署的家庭收支調查報告的消費支出那同樣的這一個參考的標準其實在"},{"start":3936.644,"end":3962.2,"text":"民國89年第一次把房屋租金支出列為列舉扣除額的時候雖然在立法理由裡面沒有清楚的講出來但是在委員的詢答過程當中財政部的官員事實上有把這一點清楚的標示出來那如果把這個立法的慣性歸納出來以後呢會是我現在投影片上面的第二點提出來的一個看法也就是說"},{"start":3962.88,"end":3991.395,"text":"立法者在從一開始制定到後來修改的時候他都是從這個標準來訂定這個扣除額的上限那是否有立法者自我拘束這樣子的意味在裡面那所謂的立法者自我拘束就是說相同者應該為相同對待根據憲法第七條的規定他就應該依據平等原則要相同的處理那除非有一些正當的理由在比例原則底下他才能夠去做"},{"start":3992.335,"end":4009.164,"text":"不做這樣子的一個標準的一個依詢那現在如果說突然之間要把它提高的話那可能關於重大的這個理由正當理由的部分立法者必須在立法理由裡面清楚的交代那我個人的見解"},{"start":4010.104,"end":4035.536,"text":"並不一定說就是這一個18萬元不能調而是說在調的時候立法者要去清楚的交代為什麼我們從一開始的這個參考行政院主計總署的這個調查報告到後來我們改採不用這個調查報告作為我們的依循標準這部分在立法理由部分可能要清楚的去交代出來那再來呢就是有關於討論提綱的第二點"},{"start":4036.556,"end":4061.179,"text":"就是房貸的支出改為特別扣除額那我剛之所以會做剛剛的這個背景的介紹也就是說前年的公聽會我去參加那可能大家也可以預測到說既然在租金改為特別扣除額我就已經反對了那如果現在房貸的利息支出要再改為特別扣除額依循我剛講的這個憲法的保障密度的觀念也就是說"},{"start":4062.421,"end":4076.256,"text":"針對生存權的保障跟針對重大需求的保障跟針對特別需要的保障在憲法的保障上面其實是不太一樣的立法者在修法的時候憲法會去拘束他的力道是不一樣的那"},{"start":4077.197,"end":4097.114,"text":"如果本於同一個思想照理講房貸的利息支出可能對於現代的人民來講它是一個基本生活的重要支出那如果留在特別扣除額可能是比較符合憲法保障的這個力道的不過因為我們剛講了就是租金的這個部分已經移過去特扣了"},{"start":4097.614,"end":4124.054,"text":"那會不會剛剛的這個原則已經被打破了以後的憲法審查必須要變成是分散的也就是說不管他放在列舉扣除額還是放在所謂的特別扣除額憲法的審查都應該要針對個別的事項去考慮他是不是屬於人民基本生活的這個必要來做他的一個憲法上面的審查的標準這可能就是以後會變成是化整為零的一個狀況那"},{"start":4126.555,"end":4155.655,"text":"原先呢就是這一個我們的這個租金扣除額跟這一個房貸扣除額它是一個對稱設計那現在因為修法把這個租金扣除額拿過去這個特別扣除額之後它已經脫鉤了那在這個情況底下我在我的投影片上面為什麼會去引導一個學者的批評這可能是為了給我自己的一個洗白的機會也就是在上一次的公聽會的時候我就已經堅決的反對它改到特別扣除額"},{"start":4156.295,"end":4181.721,"text":"那去年修法改了改了以後有一本最新的我們現階段國內的稅法權威的教科書寫出來他的見解跟我一樣那對我來講呢我看到這一段的見解以後其實我是心有戚戚焉所以我會在這個投影片裡面把它引出來最大的原因就是就是給自己一個洗白的機會代表我當時的堅持是沒有錯的那"},{"start":4183.161,"end":4211.818,"text":"在這一個就是我們柯老師的這個主張裡面呢他事實上有兩個應該要提醒大家的就是說姑且他不管他批評了上一次的修法但是呢他起碼點出了一個重點就是房屋租金特別扣除額跟這一個所謂的房貸的利息支出他應該要同步那這個所謂的同步呢我大概就是歸納一下就是同步的意思就是說他移過去特別扣除額他也要跟著移過去呢"},{"start":4212.518,"end":4239.526,"text":"那如果他也再移過去的話大家想一想列舉扣除而只剩下四個那個捐贈可能大家不常會用到然後災害的那個損失也不常會用到實質上面剩下兩個那幾乎整個在以後稅上的影響就是幾乎每一個人都會全部都主張標扣那標扣以後剩下來的再去列扣那這個狀況底下是不是會變成對高收入者比較有利的情況可能要考慮一下下"},{"start":4240.126,"end":4266.966,"text":"那調高的部分就是那個利息的這個部分那在柯老師的這個看法裡面呢他是認為說房屋租金支出跟這個購屋借款利息應該要同步啦那到底應不應該同步呢我個人跟他其實有不同的看法那如果主張他的看法的話當年12萬比30萬的時候現在18萬要比多少可能可以有一個討論的空間那再來就是"},{"start":4267.466,"end":4295.285,"text":"要以美人還是以美戶呢那我剛已經說了我們的所得稅他仍然是維持家戶制所以呢應該還是美戶的這個觀念會比較好那至於第二個提綱呢剛剛的這個法律顧問的部分呢他已經講得很清楚我只有簡單的就是梳理一下我們現在的土地法跟民法的規定還有就是那個租賃住宅市場發展管理條例的一些規定那我個人認為說"},{"start":4297.706,"end":4315.42,"text":"契約自由是憲法保障的一個基本權在這個狀況底下可能就是要打破這個契約自由去用公權力干涉這個租金的條幅可能以眼下來看是有一些困難的除非立法介入以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":4319.128,"end":4335.565,"text":"謝謝 等一下 我請教你啊你剛剛一直強調你提到的過去獎 劣取跟特別這兩個差別在哪裡啊你有沒有藉這個機會讓你你剛剛一直洗牌洗牌再洗牌一次好了謝謝主席就是說如果從憲法的觀點來看"},{"start":4337.146,"end":4360.268,"text":"關於這個扣除額呢,在我們的租稅法上有一個特殊的原則就是量能課稅原則底下的這個主觀禁止原則就是一個人他要活下去,還有他要有基本的生活的尊嚴還有他要有一些特別的需求那憲法給予他的這個保障,事實上是密度不同的"},{"start":4360.848,"end":4375.978,"text":"那對於要活下去的就是這個吃啊穿啊這個事實上在免稅額裡面就應該要涵蓋進去那列舉扣除額呢我們憲法學者會希望說他就是屬於基本生活維護他尊嚴的部分那像這種醫藥啦或者是"},{"start":4377.819,"end":4404.61,"text":"像以前的租金或者是現在的這個房屋、購屋的這個需要它是人們活下去基本尊嚴的問題跟特別扣除額不一樣特別扣除額有一些政策目的有一些特別的需要那這個狀況底下立法者有比較大的行程空間可以去決定他到底要不要去改它如果經濟的狀況不一樣或者財政的狀況不一樣或者是時代不一樣他都可以去改它憲法不會管它管那麼緊可是前面兩樣憲法會管得很緊"},{"start":4406.391,"end":4433.012,"text":"那所以從這一個理論來看的話留在特別扣留在列舉扣除而對人民來講並不是一件壞事如果是額度低的話那應該去調整額度而不是移他的位置對這是憲法的觀點謝謝不過就老百姓的觀點來講不管你是列舉或者是特別反正可以扣就好了對不對就老百姓的觀點這樣子好我們現在請黃珊珊委員她本身是律師請"},{"start":4442.627,"end":4461.632,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位學者專家我想今天我們台灣民眾黨也在這個議題裡面有一些自己的提案那多年來對於相關租市場的透明化還有針對很多很多的租族他其實沒有辦法得到公平的對待其實我們一直都在想辦法解決"},{"start":4462.472,"end":4489.568,"text":"那當然租金不管是列舉扣除了特別扣除了對租屋族來說都是很重要的一件事情那民眾黨團我們去年提出了所謂的稅法第17條的修正條文就剛剛老師說的我們到底18萬合不合理那為什麼是18萬那我們也把台北市或者是現在幾乎在外面的租屋族他可能需要的相關租金就是他基本生活需要的開銷我們提案是從18萬希望再能夠提高到25萬"},{"start":4490.809,"end":4508.223,"text":"因為一個小套房大概目前租金大概都不低於一萬塊了那更何況是一個小家庭所以到底這樣的標準符不符合相關的所謂的公平正義我們對於民間團體來說對於租屋族來說當然我們還是希望爭取到對民眾比較有利的部分"},{"start":4508.883,"end":4527.81,"text":"第二個部分就是因為房屋的租金不斷的調漲二月份的房屋指數已經再創下新高也就是說年增率高達2.56已經連續19個月的租金年增率都超過2%也就是說租金的高漲已經不單單只是一個物價的問題而它是一個租屋族最深的痛"},{"start":4528.65,"end":4551.287,"text":"那租屋的纠纷也依然频传那财政部一直对于所谓的租屋包括让它阳光化目前为止都还是非常的扭步主要还是因为我们有那么多有二十几万的申请租金补贴但是真正去申报的不到十二万户也就是说有一大半的人不能报不敢报或者是"},{"start":4552.168,"end":4575.782,"text":"房東根本不給他報因為他怕被趕走所以現在的問題是租金支出沒有辦法申報所的扣除而才是問題而不是18萬或25萬的問題因為當你租了一個房子房東不准你去申報的時候你就不會去申報所以我給他30萬50萬都沒有用這才是問題所以政府的照顧我們希望是擴大到中"},{"start":4576.622,"end":4594.707,"text":"下階層的民眾尤其是租金支出成為他生活重要負擔的一部分所以改成特別扣除是希望能夠讓更多的人他有這樣的機會去做扣除最重要的一件事情現在的問題就在於說我們之前這個法案出來之後還有個排付條款"},{"start":4595.467,"end":4610.468,"text":"排富就是說你家人有房子的話你就沒有辦法用租金特別扣除了就產生了非常多在台北漂的孩子或北漂工作的人他因為父母親在鄉下老家有房子所以他在台北的租金不能夠做扣除"},{"start":4610.728,"end":4634.924,"text":"那這部分我們本來要提案修法那財政部很快速的就做了相關的因應之道把紅黃單圍樓就你家的房子已經是紅黃單或者是災損或者是只是共有持份的或者是就醫就學能夠拿出證明在異地租屋的還有配偶因為有保護令而分居的方法這些都可以提出所謂的租金補貼也就是說法令執行面必須要符合現實的狀態那現在還有一塊就是"},{"start":4638.266,"end":4656.574,"text":"五月份要報稅了六月好像延到六月了現在我們希望財政部在租金扣除的部分要大力的宣傳尤其是可能還有很多的學校現在連宿舍的租金其實也應該可以讓他們抵扣但是很多人並不知道尤其是家長也不清楚所以除了"},{"start":4657.094,"end":4657.494,"text":"現在的房東他其實不是"},{"start":4675.066,"end":4700.259,"text":"在不在乎他這個租金有沒有申報他在乎的是他在租給人家房子之後過了幾年他賣房子的時候他的稅率比較高所以他造成是他不願意讓所有的只要是出租的他都不願意讓人家申報不是擔心他每年的這個所得稅而已他擔心的是將來的交易稅這才是我們整個租屋市場沒有辦法陽光化的最重要的原因這些事情不解決"},{"start":4701.42,"end":4720.921,"text":"你是沒有辦法讓所有的房東都把他的房子拿出來租還大喇喇告訴政府說其實我有出租而且我很驕傲錯 我們是要他們我們的法制是要讓他們繼續在陰暗的角落裡面因為他要規避他將來高額的所謂的交易稅所以重點是在於我們的稅制要不要做整體的討論"},{"start":4722.543,"end":4745.434,"text":"在20年前我們開過全國複稅會議每20年大概都會開一次所以我們也要求財政部在最近也快到20年了這20年我們也應該在就台灣的稅制開一個全國複稅會議包括在座的專家學者都應該能夠提供他們對稅制的一些看法所以我們認為說居住正義不單單只是一條"},{"start":4746.354,"end":4766.681,"text":"列舉客處而是各種稅制的做法都必須要納入那最後舉個例子韓國有個很可愛的做法他說因為要拯救國內中小微企業所以針對商辦的租金商辦的房東他有個善良房租房東的租稅優惠也就是你對你的"},{"start":4767.361,"end":4794.15,"text":"房東願意降租金國家就給你更好的稅付優惠也就是減租的50%可以從他的所得稅裡面扣除如果我們讓房東光榮的拿出他的房子也願意向政府來申報我們是不是有這樣的一個方式讓所有的房市能夠鋪在陽光之下也讓整個租屋的黑市能夠拿得出來然後也協助我們的中小企業以上 謝謝大家"},{"start":4796.384,"end":4805.187,"text":"謝謝黃委員很有建設性的發言我們下一位請郡軍國際法律事務所律師游俊彥"},{"start":4811.932,"end":4837.817,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位在座的委員以及各位在座的先進我是右傑律師那因為剛剛前面的各位先進已經報告了很多了那我其實這邊我不想讓它重複那我們這邊其實我這邊是主要想跟在座各位先進跟專學者表達的是說其實蔡英文不久前大家討論的居住正義其實好像都比較保護到個人那我們這邊其實是希望說在這個保護的機制上面可以擴大到中小企業"},{"start":4838.797,"end":4861.168,"text":"因為其實從法律面的程度來看就我們實務上面的觀察其實這幾年來租約的爭議的確很多但是大家可以看得到就租金的爭議在法律的實務上面我們常常可以看到的是誰其實是租房東來告房客為什麼會房東來告房客其實就是因為租金的問題"},{"start":4862.797,"end":4881.35,"text":"其實在商業租金裡面大家可以知道其實一個中小企業它的成本上面最負擔的是什麼最多的其實就是它的租金的結構它租金的成本那在租約在一般跟民眾我覺得最大的不同是說如果今天民眾一般的租住權他認為他住在這個地方公寓太貴了"},{"start":4882.19,"end":4904.641,"text":"他可以搬錢可是一旦中小企業在那邊地方落地生根之後他的經濟來源他的顧客其實他是固定的所以相對來講其實他要去換屋他要搬錢在另外地方做生意其實對他來講是比一般的住屋來講他是更困難的其實以最近的新聞來看我們通口飯糰大家也知道現在租金結構已經房東要漲到"},{"start":4906.302,"end":4928.107,"text":"因為它整個營運結構它已經占到71%了百分之71%的結構所以中小企業哪有辦法去負擔這樣子71%高達71%的營運成本在它的營運成本比例是占這麼高的一個比例所以這部分如果說如果因為其實法律上面是有規定就是說情勢變更大家也知道情勢變更是可以訴訟法院來調漲這個租金但是從我們法院實務上面的觀察"},{"start":4933.89,"end":4942.805,"text":"即使在前兩年的新冠肺炎的程度下房客去要求房東調降租金法院也只讓你調降一成"},{"start":4943.86,"end":4970.863,"text":"也就是它只降了10%可是在租約期滿之後房東他要調漲的成數會到哪邊會到20%以上所以現在來講我們在法院實務的觀察房客在租屋市場這邊去談判租金的能力它本身就已經是比較弱勢的如果說我們今天沒有讓房客這邊有一個法律明確的保障的話"},{"start":4971.203,"end":4991.624,"text":"那在以後樹莊上面的層面上面其實房客會一直在樹莊層面會有一個弱勢的一個情形的存在所以我們是希望說法律這邊可以明文的來規範說在以後商業住宅的這個租屋的市場上面租金的調漲是有一個上限有一個法律規範的存在像剛剛黃山寨委員他其實有提到這個問題"},{"start":4992.645,"end":5012.074,"text":"他說韓國的做法他是鼓勵房東可以調降這個租金優惠在商業條件這邊可以優惠到房客其實這個做法是相當的我個人是非常贊同因為我們現在看到的狀況都是因為這樣子因為房客房東一旦看到房客他的生意好了"},{"start":5012.834,"end":5038.102,"text":"他賺錢了甚至在民法45條他也有規定就是說因為不通產價值的調漲因為這樣連房價波動很大所以他可以因為房價波動的關係來去請求注定的調漲或調價但是其實我們在實務上面來看得到房客要去跟房客說因為你的今天的這個"},{"start":5040.503,"end":5067.862,"text":"房價降跌了所以我的租金也要下降這個在實務上目前我沒有看到已經有告成功的但是因為房客因為他的房屋他的房價上漲了他要去跟房客要求更多的房的租金這個在法律上是有前例的所以相對來講大家可以看得到雖然法院規定法律規定在那邊好像看似很公平但實際上我們在實務操作上面來看其實沒有看過這樣的案例"},{"start":5068.602,"end":5095.052,"text":"所以說為什麼今天藉由這個場合跟大家先進跟委員專家我們希望說表達一個心聲希望說這樣子的優惠條件一樣可以再擴大適用到中小企業上面至於說法制同意當然我們有更多的材質都在學習在這邊我這邊就因為我不是那麼專業所以我們就不太過度的涉入但是我這邊最後我希望是表達就是說在法律層面上面希望法律修法這邊可以更明文的規定對於"},{"start":5095.712,"end":5112.004,"text":"在商業住宅上面租金調檔的限制以及對於房客中小企業保障可以更多明文化的限制以防其實這個也是因為現在出了案件也非常多如果有法律這樣的限制的話其實這對法院的負擔我認為是有非常一個明顯的效益存在好 謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5117.007,"end":5145.709,"text":"好 謝謝有歷史的高見你們有關於對中小企業租屋方面能不能事後提一個修法的意見好不好我們可以來參考一下因為這一塊大家關心的比較少大家關心的是資源租產這一部分你這是專門為中小企業譬如說現在已經發生過這樣的事情了因為房東的不正常或者是"},{"start":5146.75,"end":5163.604,"text":"跟這個比較異常的大幅度的條狀促進他可能被迫削業啦或者是就關掉啦 這種情況我們希望藉著你這個如果提修法的話我們可以來參考好不好 謝謝下一位請李彥秀委員來發言請"},{"start":5171.819,"end":5189.214,"text":"非常感謝昭緯今天排的公聽會他今天的主題就是因應房價的高漲為有效的協助租屋族跟首購族然後我們看看我們透過今天的公聽會未來如何去減輕包括落實我們未來房屋租金列為特別扣除額"},{"start":5190.035,"end":5206.63,"text":"我們大家都常常在談說土地正義土地正義那土地正義落實除了手購族租屋族之外其實在分布在每一個年齡層或者是剛進入社會或準備成家的很多年輕的夫婦其實都有面臨"},{"start":5207.771,"end":5232.567,"text":"租金非常高或者是現在買房子的負擔特別重我們也希望透過今天的公聽會我們可以把更多不同的面向關注到未來在修法的過程當中可以讓我們的修法可以照顧到每一個不同需要的這些對象那最近我們房價的持續的攀升包括原物料其實什麼都漲"},{"start":5234.308,"end":5238.289,"text":"內政部最新公布113年我們第三季的房價負擔能力統計的成果比我們全國房貸負擔率為46.8%這代表的我們其實房貸已經佔我們現在我們所得比將近到50%其實也就是1比1"},{"start":5255.954,"end":5264.599,"text":"那房價的負擔能力維持為偏低的等級尤其在台北市房貸的負擔率其實是達到高到71.82%那房價所得比高達16.6倍"},{"start":5271.603,"end":5277.647,"text":"但是我們都非常清楚知道我們第七次的房貸的管制我們目前一般銀行給予房貸的利率大概落在2.5%到3%左右那利息負擔其實是非常沉重的"},{"start":5287.473,"end":5309.381,"text":"這也影響著我們目前購屋意願跟家庭的規劃這些挑戰其實凸顯著我們現在居住正義的迫切性那當然我們現在租屋族同樣面臨高租金的壓力這兩年我們經過統計我們漲幅最高的其實就是外食族在外面吃飯的費用增加許多"},{"start":5309.801,"end":5326.998,"text":"另外一個就是最近這一兩年租金增高非常的多這是負擔最重的所以許多人每個月負擔租金的支出佔總收入的達到30%台北市去年平均租金更高達每一坪達到1463塊可見"},{"start":5329.921,"end":5338.946,"text":"不論是租屋族或者是房貸的壓力現在都是非常的沉重財政部在今天的報告當中也指出來我們現在房貸的利息扣除額最高可達到30萬元它是可涵蓋1400萬貸款的利息支出但是對於首購族而言財政部認為對首購族而言"},{"start":5353.675,"end":5368.672,"text":"是已經足夠的但是我個人認為對於租屋族的經濟能力其實租屋族反而在經濟能力上是相對比較薄弱的我個人認為也應該優先支持但是我認為房貸利息改為特別扣除了並"},{"start":5369.833,"end":5386.746,"text":"沒有跟支持租屋族有衝突反而更能夠全面的來落實我們的居住正義那首購族在租屋的初期利息佔還款的比例相對是比較高的因為我們大家都知道一般都是先還利息再還本金"},{"start":5387.406,"end":5412.255,"text":"若比照租金扣除额设为特别的扣除额可以大幅的减轻财务上的压力鼓励年轻人购屋成家而现在房贷的利息支出虽然列举在扣除额当中但是并没有办法跟我们现在的标准扣除额并用限制了实际的效益所以我更认为改为特别扣除额才有真正实际的帮助"},{"start":5413.175,"end":5429.142,"text":"那最后以上我讲的几点我认为房贷的利息改为特别扣除额可设定在30万元的上限跟排付的条款确保协助收入比较少的首购主另外在上个会期我有特别提出来住宅法的修法"},{"start":5429.682,"end":5443.715,"text":"我們未來我們希望現在很多房東空屋我們希望可以提供出來做出租所以我們希望可以提高公益出租跟包租代管的免稅額如果這些房子有辦法釋放出來的話那這也是增加一些誘因讓我們未來想租房子的選擇性也可以比較多那對於房東"},{"start":5453.123,"end":5472.945,"text":"他如果有這個租金的扣除免稅額的話他的意願也會比較高藉此增加投入社會住宅的數量這也可以落實賴清德總統對於社會住宅的數量包含我們前面開租的巫術希望能夠藉此這些措施來減輕民眾的負擔以上"},{"start":5476.018,"end":5486.519,"text":"好 謝謝李委員的發言下一位請奧爾斯都市改革組織研究員廖廷輝廖先生請"},{"start":5502.045,"end":5528.392,"text":"主席主席會員各位先進大家好那對於第一點就是租金的特別扣除額的部分目前的房屋租金其實已經一列到特別扣除額了而當時的修法理由有三個第一個是原本的列舉扣除額12萬那個已經是1999年訂的數字了那所以它在跟隨著我們在標準扣除額跟免稅額不斷提升的狀況底下其實它的使用率變得非常的低"},{"start":5528.872,"end":5548.438,"text":"它只有2.2%到2.7%的租屋族在使用那使用率低的原因其實就是因為我們標準扣除額因為提高的關係所以租屋族使用列舉扣除額省下來的稅額是非常有限的就一個單身青年來說的話他使用標準扣除額跟列舉扣除租金他的稅額可能差不到一千塊"},{"start":5549.238,"end":5562.86,"text":"但是他必須要費時費力的減負相關資料不像標準扣除而你只要一路往下在系統上往下點就好了而且你還要克服租黑市的風險可能房東還會不讓你報稅或者是不跟你續約等等這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":5564.042,"end":5590.192,"text":"那第三個就是我們在上次的立法理由裡面其實也很明確的表示說都使用了標準扣除的狀況但是租屋族的生活支出比較重卻沒有繳更少的稅所以為了照顧弱勢的無屋族群所以在上一次2023年的那一次修法的時候才把房屋的租金列舉扣除把它改列到特別扣除項目那雖然這件事情已經完成了"},{"start":5592.549,"end":5620.425,"text":"財政部內會給了一些限制包含就是要先扣掉租金補貼的部分以及有房屋者是不得適用雖然後面還有一些排除的相關的項目那今年新制就要上路了我覺得其實更嚴重的耽誤自己是很多租屋族他可能還是沒有辦法知道就是說現在其實把房屋的租金已經可以用特別扣除來去進行了那而且很多房客他還是會擔心說如果他要用"},{"start":5620.905,"end":5649.758,"text":"租金去報稅的話房東會不會對他有不利益的待遇所以我們會認為說針對房東拒絕房客申請的這個現象我們之前也開過記者會希望財政部會去有一個申訴專線而這個申訴專線後來財政部的回應是說有啊現在本來就已經有各式各樣的專線可以去做諮詢的我們要的不是這樣子的一個諮詢專線而是如果今天有一個房客他打電話到財政部說我的房東不讓我用租金抵稅"},{"start":5650.538,"end":5668.48,"text":"或者是說我房東跟我說用租金抵稅他就要漲我租金他下次都不租我那財政部應該優先的就去查這些人嗎為什麼這些房東不讓房客抵稅我們不管在因記載不得記載事項裡面也好或者是說我們比方說公益出租人上面的優惠也好其實"},{"start":5669.381,"end":5686.881,"text":"如果房東是合法在繳稅的話他沒有理由去拒絕房客報稅所以會去拒絕的會去做不利益待遇的房東本來就一定是在逃漏稅所以財政部應該去加強這部分的查核因為我們過去問了很多次的資料每年財政部到底抓了多少房東逃漏稅"},{"start":5687.702,"end":5710.724,"text":"那財政部除了給專案查核資料以外其實他都說每年我們都非常積極的重點在查核但是因為他會跟其他的所得稅的項目並列在一起所以無法拆開每年抓了多少租屋逃漏稅那我覺得至少這一塊尤其在今年報稅季的部分應該特別去鎖定這一些拒絕房客報稅的這些房東去做他的查核"},{"start":5712.383,"end":5726.489,"text":"那對於租金的抵扣額度來說到底要不要增加呢雖然在上次修法的時候我們的主張是要增加的不管是24萬也好30萬也好因為目前的特別扣除了18萬其他對應得到的是每個月租金1.5萬"},{"start":5727.87,"end":5745.737,"text":"對但是其實台北市大家都知道如果你要租一個一般的家庭式的租屋的話其實兩萬多三萬多是非常常見的狀況所以三十萬他算算成每個月就是2.5萬元而且因為這個是時之時報如果你沒有你實際上的租金沒有這麼高的話"},{"start":5746.277,"end":5771.033,"text":"你也不會用到這麼多的額度所以我們那時候是希望30萬元的但是畢竟這件事情在今年5月才要上路所以我們其實也還是可以覺得說等到今年的報稅結果統計完畢之後我們再試情況說這個額度大家滿不滿意我們要不要再做調整因為今年才要上路而已更重要的是如果這件事情它是為了要去降低租屋族的負擔的話不是只靠抵稅就好應該要去健全或擴大租屋市場"},{"start":5771.973,"end":5798.012,"text":"為什麼明明房東不可以拒絕房客抵稅很多房客還是不敢那就是因為現在租屋市場狀況很糟嘛一個相對還OK的物件OK的價格看房子的人都是五個十個在排你在租屋族你在那個現場你敢舉手問房東說不好意思可不可以抵稅可不可以攝戶籍可不可以申請租補你敢問嗎你敢問房東就直接把你踢掉就選下一個人了要租房子的人多的是不差你一個"},{"start":5798.872,"end":5828.24,"text":"所以目前就是說隨著房價上漲需要租房子的人其實是越來越多的那變成是供給其實沒有相對另一個提升所以租屋市場的供需失衡但是這種供需失衡的狀況底下我們即便在法律上給予房客相關的權利在市場機制底下房客真的敢用嗎這個其實是我們非常需要考慮的問題所以我們會覺得說財政部應該要扮演關鍵角色但是卻長期怠惰的有兩點一個是引導空屋的出租使用第二個是租屋市場透明化"},{"start":5829.67,"end":5858.663,"text":"第一點就是增加租屋的供給裡面包含了空餘屋釋出跟引導民間新辦租賃住宅第一個部分尤其是跟財政部有關我們2020年普查的時候空屋數有117.5萬而且這已經排除掉偶爾自住的空屋什麼是偶爾自住的空屋像是鄉下的鄒處墾丁的度假宅夏天去衝浪這些我都已經排除掉了還有117.5萬保守估計我們的空屋率有12%每八間房子就有一間是空的而且有三分之二在六都地區"},{"start":5859.463,"end":5882.432,"text":"最先的圖像是房價很貴、空屋很多、年輕人買不起又租不好因為我們對於空置來說基本上是沒有任何懲罰的那這件事情在2023年我們租客聯盟在去舉辦促進公屋使用論壇的時候也邀了當時的所有政黨的委員一起來發表意見然後也提出了民間的版本跟各個政黨的版本大家可以掃QR code參考"},{"start":5883.132,"end":5911.418,"text":"那另外一個部分是去引導民間去興辦社會住宅目前我們的土地飆售機制其實也是非常不合理不過這部分是比較偏內政部的職責就給大家書面參考就可以了那第二個部分是租屋市場透明化我們只有在剛剛說把空屋釋出租屋供給提升之後你去把透明化這件事情解決才有意義因為現在目前內政部跟財政部都很害怕要把租屋市場整個透明化為什麼因為如果透明化的話"},{"start":5912.518,"end":5935.123,"text":"會造成市場閉鎖嘛會造成租金上漲嘛在說租金實價登錄的時候內政部反對也是這個理由那如果我們今天直接說所有的房東我們全部都要查核如果說這麼多的租屋黑死為什麼財政部查不到一個是人力問題一個是如果真的查到他一不爽房東把房子收回來租屋市場狀況是不是變得更差那所以我們在這邊"},{"start":5936.283,"end":5954.898,"text":"解決了租屋供給提升之後我們也要面對房東對於透明化的疑慮包含就是納入中手稅他的所得稅息會提升長期倒漏稅他害怕政府秋後算帳那交易所得稅即便他是公益出租人他也不能適用於自住優惠所以我們會覺得說這個部分都應該要透過稅制層面進行改革"},{"start":5955.638,"end":5982.333,"text":"具體來說的話我覺得面對這些房東的疑慮跟困境可以採用分離課稅、大赦條款、五例出租等等的方式去降低房東轉向合法的成本我們要做的是現在絕大多數的房東都是違法房東那財政部要查是不可能查得完的我們要讓合法的比例增加違法的比例下降我們再加強去查核才有可能去做到這件事情那如果說空屋稅或者是促進住宅使用稅它是一個棒子"},{"start":5982.873,"end":6001.514,"text":"那對於房東這部分的痛點的解決的改革跟優惠其實它就是一個蘿蔔我們要一手蘿蔔一手棒子我們才有可能把整個租屋市場把它搞得更好所以這個是我們覺得說比起去調抵扣額這件事情其實財政部有更多的稅務相關的事情可以去改善我們整體的租屋市場"},{"start":6002.535,"end":6022.921,"text":"那第二個是首購族的房貸利息扣除如前所述我們剛剛說租金支出扣除它主要有兩個理由使用率低跟分配正義問題但是購屋貸款利息支出其實都沒有類似的問題第一件事情是實務上來說我們目前用自用住宅抵扣的利息的人數比例是我們租屋抵稅的十倍以上"},{"start":6023.641,"end":6039.56,"text":"而且我們目前因為是抵扣利息的關係平均的抵扣基金額只有12.7萬元最高價的台北市也是16.5所以30萬元的額度目前就購物來說其實是夠用的那第二個是更嚴重我們目前的底稅它其實並沒有準確補貼到首購組啊我們現在的"},{"start":6042.103,"end":6059.686,"text":"規定是本人配偶及受撫養親屬持有的自用住宅就好了所以他其實即便有很多間房子他也可以選擇符合上述規範的用那一間來進行申報就好了跟守購族完全沒有關係所以不管是在使用率或在分配正義上面這兩個稅制的抵扣其實都是完全不同的議題"},{"start":6061.687,"end":6091.35,"text":"那如果真的要去思考房貸利息的抵稅或稅額抵免的優惠的話我們會建議參考美國的這個制度喔他們是一個房貸利息的稅額抵免它是直接從因納稅額中扣除它的效果更強它的條件就非常的嚴格它限制的是首次購屋者真的是首購主而且你購買的房子必須作為主要居所就是那一間你主要住的那一間而且它對於申請者的收入跟你買的房子的房價都有限制對 然後再給一個抵免比例這個才是真的準確的幫助到我們的首購主嘛"},{"start":6091.73,"end":6112.741,"text":"不然的話以目前的狀況來說以目前的利息的抵扣如果它直接移到特扣的話其實會有很多不是首購族的人也一起被照顧到了那我們覺得這個在分配生意上是值得商榷的那所以我們的看法跟建議是既有的購屋貸款利息支出的抵稅實在是沒有提高額度的必要而且實務上我們應該要更加強支出住宅規範的落實"},{"start":6113.982,"end":6141.326,"text":"那如果真的要降低首購族的購物壓力那個關鍵其實是房價嘛不是鼓勵借更多錢心安是這個邏輯那利息抵稅也是這個邏輯其實就是讓借錢的成本變得更低而已那最終解決了什麼問題什麼問題都沒有解決那如果真的要考量首購族的話真的要改列特別扣除我們的建議是第一個嚴格限制什麼叫做首購族它只限於用於第一次購物才是首購族第二個是它要有收入的上限你一定要是"},{"start":6142.458,"end":6163.598,"text":"比方說中位數以下我們真的需要幫助到的不夠錢買房子的這些人才是我們要幫助的對象那他也不能是去買豪宅所以我們要去有一個房屋的價格上限我們會覺得這樣的修正會更加的妥善BUS有超過一點時間最後一個是租金合理條幅規範許多國家他都有設置這個規範大家可以參考比方說法國他們是用參考租金然後再去設置一個"},{"start":6164.859,"end":6192.201,"text":"漲幅上限那荷蘭他是直接用一個租金作為一個標準那低於某個租金以下的是由政府部門直接來去給予他的橋樑幅度高於這個租金的是你工資增長加1%你最多只能漲這個樣子比方說今年工資增長4%那你的房租都只能漲5%這是他們的規定那韓國我們的鄰居最近的是2020年他們制定他是續約的時候租金漲幅不可以超過5%而且他們現在才正式的訂說是說有保障租期的制度"},{"start":6192.881,"end":6208.308,"text":"是沒有台灣都是一年一約可是在韓國你租房子至少就是四年起跳所以如果我們要去規範租金條幅上限的話其實我們還有很多前置作業沒有做第一個我們還是說租屋工具是失衡的你即便規範了租金條幅房東還是可以不續租"},{"start":6208.908,"end":6230.022,"text":"或者是說高額的雜費、清潔費因為我們電費也管制了所以我們就繞過這個條幅的規定實際上房客的負擔還是很重第二個是租屋黑市還是很龐大資訊是不透明的所以當政府沒辦法掌握到現在比方說台北市大安區屋齡30年的公寓大廈整層住家它的平均的租金中位數是多少"},{"start":6230.362,"end":6247.135,"text":"這些事情如果不知道的話我們要怎麼樣去制定一個漲幅的標準我們政府手上是根本沒有資訊的那第三個就是我們目前也沒有租期的保障租期過短 你一年約為主你換約的時候如果都可以漲5%你每年漲5% 每年漲5%也是一個非常可怕的數字好 我的報告到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝廖廷維廖廷維 廖廷維現在會請麥義正委員發言 請"},{"start":6272.967,"end":6291.701,"text":"主席好各位親愛的家人大家好謝謝我們專家學者還有我們今天的財政委員會我們賴昭偉舉辦這次的秀法公聽會讓我們有機會共同探討如何透過稅制的改革"},{"start":6294.223,"end":6317.021,"text":"確確的協助台灣廣大租金租金組與首購組減輕這一代年輕人的生活壓力居住正義這個議題在內政委員會我們不管是台灣民眾黨或其他委員們一直都在努力推動修法與改革就是希望"},{"start":6318.102,"end":6330.748,"text":"當民眾面對台灣的高房價我們不能再以過去的思維看待租屋或購屋的支出不是單單個人的選擇問題而是間接關係到年輕人的未來社會經濟的結構 生意力等重大議題"},{"start":6342.95,"end":6361.44,"text":"都會區小家庭顧及每年約花30萬元的租金支出在已經排付條款的限制下為落實居住正義、鼓勵生意、照顧離鄉背景、升學及工作者台灣民眾黨黨團提出"},{"start":6363.541,"end":6380.811,"text":"調高房屋租金支出特別扣除至25萬以符合實際房市的狀況減輕租屋主的負擔另外若納稅義務人配合或者撫養直系親屬"},{"start":6383.772,"end":6397.777,"text":"申請的承租租宅地址與納稅義務人配合這些房屋就是扶養直系親屬 設有房屋同屋"},{"start":6398.837,"end":6413.966,"text":"直轄市的不同的縣市也可以減除房屋租金或者支出的特別扣除額這些修法方向就是希望我們減輕租屋的負擔以國家財政穩固"},{"start":6419.537,"end":6442.912,"text":"租稅公平之間的平衡通過今天的公聽會希望能聽到大家的專家學者讓我們的年輕人還有我們一些弱勢族群包含就是我們的老人新住民還有就是需要居住的社會住宅希望大家共同來給政府"},{"start":6445.154,"end":6460.764,"text":"最棒最實際讓我們人民可以收回的政策才真真的是讓我們福國利民希望大家一起給我們更多的建議更多的踴躍提出"},{"start":6461.344,"end":6474.318,"text":"更多的立法的我們還沒有足的地方讓我們立法院我們所有的立委一起來去努力因為在我們內政今天也是在講這個議題我們希望在這個"},{"start":6477.763,"end":6502.331,"text":"會期可以把這個問題解決不是像我們的內政部都是年底年底不到哪一年的年底才能做好我們希望我們在這個會期我們所有的努力的委員為我們的年輕人弱勢族群是我們的民眾要福國利民的政策真正的落實謝謝大家"},{"start":6505.967,"end":6513.119,"text":"好 謝謝麥委員的發言 下面請政大財政系的羅光大教授"},{"start":6525.951,"end":6545.484,"text":"主席還有在場的各部會的代表還有專家學者大家早安我是政治大學財政學系羅光的羅教授今天非常高興有這個機會來特別針對房屋租金特別扣除和手購主的房貸利息支出比照房屋租金列為特別扣除的議題發表自己的一個看法"},{"start":6546.344,"end":6555.612,"text":"在正式回應今天兩個提案的議題之前我們先來看一下目前的現況還有幾個數字我們再來看一下說我自己的一個想法"},{"start":6556.532,"end":6580.468,"text":"目前來說的話其實在1.13年度的時候我們已經把租金支出從列舉扣除額改成所謂的特別扣除額也從12萬把它上升到18萬不過這樣子的一個特別扣除額來說有兩個排除的限制第一個是有排除掉有污組的限制第二個是排除掉排付的條款"},{"start":6580.948,"end":6606.536,"text":"那承諾剛剛這個黃珊珊委員來說的話的一個說明那其實財政部在制定這個特別扣除額的時候其實很迅速的一個回應了幾個一個自由住宅排除有屋主上面的限制那一些圍樓或說毀損特別是你可能已經有自由住宅但是因為工作或是說就學的關係你到外縣市去租屋來說的話那其實都可以還是列為所謂的特別扣除額"},{"start":6607.276,"end":6621.172,"text":"那另外排除條款來說的話那當然在排付上面來說的話也是回應了大家一般民眾的一個期待那除了這個相關的條件之外呢這個租金支出列為特別扣除相對於其他的特別扣除來說的話"},{"start":6622.553,"end":6642.105,"text":"需要多一点的所谓的行政的作业那我们的薪资特别扣除额或者说业务学龄前的特别扣除额只要你身份或者特别的所得既为事实来说的话不用举列任何的文件都可以列为特别扣除额但是租金支出特别扣除额来说的话就必须提出相关的一些文件"},{"start":6642.845,"end":6660.371,"text":"那除了這個租金支出的特別扣除額之外呢那今天的議題有一個特別是針對首購主房貸利息支出呢是不是要列為特別扣除額的相關規定那目前來說的話呢我們目前的稅制並沒有特別針對首購主房貸利息支出列為特別扣除額的這樣子的一個規定"},{"start":6661.872,"end":6689.407,"text":"不過這個房貸利息支出來說目前是列在所謂的列舉扣除額那相關的規定來說的話相信在座的專家學者都非常的了解那目前來說的話也不超過30萬元為一個上限那我們剛剛有看到它有所謂的列舉扣除額有所謂的標準扣除額但是在稅法上面來說還有一個標準扣除額那我們就稍微的來看一下標準列舉跟特別來說的話有什麼不同"},{"start":6690.051,"end":6717.25,"text":"那標準扣除來說的話呢那其實就是政府呢直接給定一個金額不論你有沒有這些支出那我們目前來說的話呢就直接從這個所得這個金額上面來扣除不需要準備相關的文件那列舉來說的話呢就是說申報戶呢把一年以來的特定的項目的實際支出呢提出相關文件之後呢再從這個所得的總額當中加以扣除那目前來說的話有些像捐贈啊或說人身保險來說的話"},{"start":6718.331,"end":6747.261,"text":"那不過呢 標準跟列舉呢 申報戶來說的話呢只能兩個選一個來試用那另外的特別扣除而來說的話其實呢 我個人認為來說它就是一個加碼的一個優惠除了二選一的標準跟列舉之外你只要符合特定的身份或有一些特定的收入的來源之後呢那我們政府呢 在所得稅法當中呢就可以加碼的優惠所以它是屬於專屬的特定的收入或專屬的特定的一個族群"},{"start":6748.081,"end":6762.45,"text":"那了解這個大概的背景之後呢那我們就來看一下目前的一些申報戶的一個現況我們給了那麼多的一些列舉給了那麼多的標準扣除而來說話到底是哪些人在用或者有沒有人在用那以目前110"},{"start":6763.932,"end":6780.584,"text":"11年度的綜合所得稅的這個初步核定的統計專冊的數字來說的話大概我們全國大概有663萬戶的一個中所稅的申報戶但是我們從我這個投影片的資料我們很明顯的看得出來不用繳稅的戶數其實佔了293萬戶佔了44.19%這樣子的比例那適用的5%的稅率的申報戶也高達了236萬戶"},{"start":6792.333,"end":6798.699,"text":"高達了35.6%這樣子的比例所以兩個我們講的不用繳稅再加上最低的稅率的編輯稅率的這樣兩個族群來說話其實高達了529萬戶將近八成的這樣子的申報戶是不用繳稅或是用最低的稅率"},{"start":6809.989,"end":6830.341,"text":"那在663萬戶的申報戶當中使用標準扣除額的有590.6萬戶所以將近九成的申報戶他直接使用一個不用提出任何的申請的文件然後一個統一的一個金額直接扣掉的給將近九成那使用列舉扣除額大概將近十成左右"},{"start":6831.081,"end":6846.768,"text":"好 那當然我們就想要進一步來看一下說有那麼多的列舉扣除額有那麼多的特別扣除額那到底哪一些的項目是最非常實用不過因為資料的一個限制特別是長照的特別扣除額跟租金特別扣除額呢"},{"start":6847.208,"end":6874.85,"text":"其實在2019年和2024年才開始試用所以說這個資料上面來說的話沒辦法就即時的呈現不過正好我在2018年的時候有承接財政部的一個相關的委託研究計畫我就利用2018年我自己做的這個研究計畫相對應的資料稍微的說明一下在2018年這個數字差不多大概九成是用採取標準扣除額大概只有十成採取列舉扣除額"},{"start":6875.49,"end":6901.869,"text":"那在列舉扣除額當中我們有很多有捐贈 有人身保險 有障害損失那以申報人身保險 特別是健保和醫療生育以及人身保險的非健保這三個是最多的那在所有的申報戶當中來說的話大概有八成八左右的申報戶有申報所謂的薪資特別扣除額那第二個高的使用的是所謂的儲蓄投資特別扣除額"},{"start":6902.609,"end":6926.767,"text":"身心障礙、教育學費和幼年學齡前的特別扣除額來說的話大概只有60萬人的家戶就這樣子使用我們大概可以稍微小結一下大概九成是用標準扣除額十成是用列舉扣除額二選一的情況之下當然列舉的金額如果大於財政部所給定的標準扣除額它才有用意去使用在2025年來說的話目前"},{"start":6929.108,"end":6949.221,"text":"單身來說的話是13.1萬夫妻合併是26.2萬那特別的扣除來說是加碼的優惠所以說如果把租金支出還有未來的首購組列為扣除來說確實可以加惠民眾不過剛剛的資料我們也看得出來我國目前不用繳稅的這個中所稅的"},{"start":6951.162,"end":6964.993,"text":"這個申報戶呢佔了44%左右所以並不是我們給了這樣的租稅優惠之後呢所有的租屋主或所有的守戶主呢都可以是實際受惠的家戶那特別是所得分位呢比較低的一個家戶"},{"start":6965.974,"end":6984.509,"text":"那了解這個背景之後我們就回應今天兩個討論的提綱那第一個來說的話是不是要把這個租金列為特別扣除了那目前其實已經列為特別扣除了那今年五月報稅的時候就可以適用不過資料成為我們剛剛所做還要再繼續的觀察一下"},{"start":6985.509,"end":7002.334,"text":"這個租屋主如果他沒有申報中小稅或是說他根本的適用稅率是零來說的話根本也沒辦法適用另外其實我這裡也要幫財政部講一點話其實我們都給財政部太多太多的期待我們希望他利用所謂的租稅的工具"},{"start":7002.694,"end":7027.607,"text":"特別是租稅優惠達成某些我們這個政策的目的但是這些租稅的優惠能不能夠達成這樣的目的其實我是覺得有時候除了一個稅收損失之外對租稅公平或者是說租稅的效率上面來說的話其實都會受到一些傷害甚至有一點是被公辦的這樣子的一個效果那還不如我們把這樣子的一個工作財政部的工作先把這個租稅這個完整的一個稅收的一個"},{"start":7030.669,"end":7046.077,"text":"收入之後呢再強化一些我們的租金補貼的支出政策來說的話呢那其實是比較明確而且是比較有效的那第二個那是不是首購族的這個房貸的利息呢你以為特別扣除了那一樣根據資料上面的呈現來說的話"},{"start":7047.277,"end":7069.713,"text":"我覺得我還是希望有所保留因為是不是我們希望能夠幫忙的這些要從低收入戶或所得分位比較低的家庭能夠幫忙到來說的話從資料來說的話如果他沒有申報租稅稅如果他是用稅率是零來說的話我給予再多的這樣租稅優惠來說的話那其實他享受到的這個機會其實是微乎其微"},{"start":7070.293,"end":7095.072,"text":"那未來如果真的有這樣子的一個考量來說的話那我自己的建議是首購組的定義是必須要非常明確而且比較嚴格一點那到底是我們想像中的你真的都沒有買房子無房無貸還是我們在央行的信用管制或我們業界認為那種首購組我雖然有房子但是我沒有任何的貸款來說也叫做首購這個可能要明確的定義那另外"},{"start":7095.672,"end":7112.263,"text":"我雖然沒有自由住宅但是如果可能有一些土地有一些工廠有一些其他的非自由住宅來說的話是不是要排除這個也要略為考量其他的建議來說的話第二個討論提綱來說的話是不是要調整合理的上限其實就是18萬夠不夠"},{"start":7113.524,"end":7138.271,"text":"那我個人認為四口之家跟單身住在台北住在屏東確實是有不同的一個考量那我個人的建議是可以按18萬或12萬當成一個基礎然後再按照未成年整理數再加上六度或新竹縣市加成計算但是不超過某一個金額的上限為限也許是24萬一個月補助2萬或是說我們按照儲蓄特別扣除27萬為限當成一個標準"},{"start":7140.211,"end":7152.925,"text":"那其他建議來說的話成了我剛剛所說的其實我對於租稅政策的優惠其實比較保留但是支出上面來說我覺得它對象非常明確而且民眾比較有感那內政部提出了這樣的租金補貼來說我覺得"},{"start":7155.447,"end":7180.954,"text":"是非常這個蠻不錯的這樣子的一個政策那希望能夠持續不過呢在目前的這樣對於房東上面的優惠或處罰來說的話只限於目前房客具有申報租屋補貼的房東我們才可以去做這樣管理或這樣的優惠但是相對於房客的租金的一些租稅的優惠房東收入呢可不可以如實繳稅我個人認為是更加的重要"},{"start":7181.774,"end":7191.738,"text":"當然業界或學界都有提出實價登錄目前實價登錄來說買賣房子是有的租房子如果透過仲介業才要實價登錄雖然內政部長在上個月有針對這個議題發表這些看法不過我還是希望內政部跟相關的單位能夠長期漸進的考量租屋市場上面還是能夠全面的實價登錄如果"},{"start":7210.726,"end":7223.497,"text":"近期有困難來說至少在一定金額以上的租金的這樣子的租賃的一個案件來說可以強制的要求實價登錄我覺得是一個可行而且是漸進的方法那以上針對今天的討論題剛剛發表個人的請見 謝謝"},{"start":7230.622,"end":7256.693,"text":"羅教授我們請財政部跟內政部相關的長官還有法務部發言之前我想提幾個東西我們希望除了你們報告之外也能夠針對我提出來的幾個問題看能不能也來跟我們回答一下如果不能回答 你看做什麼樣的說明第一個 今天討論的是"},{"start":7258.333,"end":7282.114,"text":"這個等於是個人戶他的租金以及首購他的支出要不要放在列舉購出額列舉購出額能不能提高目前題目是這樣子但是剛才有一位這個律師吧 由律師提到的對中小企業這一部分大家幾乎很少琢磨我們能不能夠等一下財政部"},{"start":7283.115,"end":7308.479,"text":"跟我們來提一下確實剛才也有其他的專家提到了因為這個房東就突然的漲今年這個比如說一年十萬明年一年十五萬後年一年二十萬這種情況之下讓很多經營還不錯的中小企業這個中小企業或者是微小企業他可能只有顧五個人"},{"start":7309.159,"end":7334.127,"text":"那被迫的可能要歇業那這一部分我們財政部沒有想過針對這個中小企業的部分它的租金租賃的一個情況租的情況租屋的情況這是第一個我要提出來的就是針對中小企業這一部分第一個我要提出來的就是"},{"start":7336.035,"end":7355.861,"text":"歐洲有些國家我們目前是這樣做就是我們租金的調漲是有參考CPI的那有些歐洲的國家它是比較嚴格的就是你是掌CPI除非你證明說過去一年"},{"start":7357.466,"end":7378.26,"text":"我的房子等於大修特修等於新的房子一樣等於這個建築物就不是原來建築物的造價或者我的造價大幅的因為我的這個去加工啦或者我去修繕啦我大幅提升我的成本要提出證明要提出要經過政府相關部門的"},{"start":7379.261,"end":7392.852,"text":"這個省額然後它的造價不一樣才能夠額外再漲換句話說是除了CPI之外它要漲的理由要有政府來"},{"start":7394.833,"end":7409.285,"text":"某種程度來看當然有些人會認為說這個商業的這個租貸啊這個東西政府可能不宜去管太多可是事實上歐洲他們就有在管這部分因為"},{"start":7410.146,"end":7432.912,"text":"我講的是針對中小企業中小企業的經營者比較沒有他的 bargaining power大企業政壇我們就不管了完全是市場機制我們不去管它是第二點我要提出來的那第三點我們今天討論為什麼今天排這個題目因為最近最熱門的題目就是除了川普的關稅之外還是川普的關稅川普的關稅之外"},{"start":7436.033,"end":7445.703,"text":"那你又就發現說只要川普講一句話對全球金融市場特別股票市場的影響多大你看前天講的說哎呀我們對巴陸"},{"start":7447.103,"end":7470.394,"text":"就這兩天講的吧 大陸可能要他不需要課到一百五十四一百四十五要降到五十八六十八馬上昨天股市暴漲結果今天講說 都不是他說這個稍後 他說以後再說那以後可能不是今年 是明年結果今天又好像又退回去了就沒有那麼順所以今天的"},{"start":7471.704,"end":7485.731,"text":"判的扣除也就是在關稅的影響底下而且這個影響可能還會漫長一段時間昨天 老東部長在立法院就提到了這個可能會有十萬人失業"},{"start":7487.292,"end":7512.666,"text":"會有六成以上的人會擔心五星價這個對債影響到一般的市井小民所以我們在野黨提出來的普發一萬塊的現金其實是很有必要的這個請財政部的理事長再跟總部長再提一下這個現在講八十億是這一部分他們在野黨提這個普發一萬塊啊在現在這個時空"},{"start":7516.388,"end":7522.155,"text":"因為川普的關稅不會這麼早落幕但是落幕也不可能婚約以前"},{"start":7523.305,"end":7551.797,"text":"他不會說32%沒有了 通常變零不會他最少起課點10%10%影響也是蠻大的這個對工廠特別是薄力的工廠影響是很大很大的所以對人民來講的話這個物價也漲了收入也少了工作機會可能無形價這時候1萬塊的補貼其實是相當的有必要等一下有機會也再給我們"},{"start":7552.557,"end":7571.143,"text":"來回答一下第四點那就是剛才這個特別是黃先生委員代表民眾黨團提出來的說這個租屋化能不能讓租屋市場透明化之所以不願意透明化就是他租那房子以後賣"},{"start":7572.95,"end":7600.211,"text":"如果讓財政部知道他有租房子他就在賣的時候沒有實價實際上的一個叫什麼我們叫什麼叫做實價不是實價登錄叫做不是不是叫做實價交易叫什麼對還有一個他講的是我們交易市場提的那個是"},{"start":7603.291,"end":7611.833,"text":"在最後交易的時候你們就是按照他的實價的交易實價課稅那一部分來講他就沒辦法享受這些他提的概念"},{"start":7630.018,"end":7657.274,"text":"不能用自助的這部分你們等一下也可以回答一下最後一點有哪位委員提到還是專家提到了有沒有可能分離課稅分離課稅這一塊重新是不同的概念"},{"start":7659.395,"end":7680.081,"text":"這個我想你們財政部準備了一些資料說除了準備資料之外針對我剛才提的那幾大概五點吧能不能給我們一併的說明好不好如果今天沒辦法說明那你也適度說明那我時候再不一定適度給我們好不好我們現在請財政部的理事長先回應一下"},{"start":7688.356,"end":7709.471,"text":"好 謝謝主席 還有就是今天與會的各位女士先生 大家早安我想今天貴文會有召開這個主題 那這個修法的公聽會呢我們本部呈要列席 我們就討論提綱因為一的部分可能是比較涉及本部的業務 這個部分我們先說明如下"},{"start":7710.111,"end":7734.029,"text":"那首先就是我們現行的扣除綜合所得稅的這個課徵呢它是基於一個量能課稅的原則所以所得稅法第17條的免稅以及相關的扣除項目的規定呢是基於納稅一人基本生活的支出重要生活支出以及符合特定目的的支出項目來規定可以從綜合所得的總額中來減除那用它的餘額來衡量這個納稅人的納稅能力"},{"start":7736.45,"end":7751.14,"text":"並且適用目前我們的累計稅率那扣除了項目的範圍還有減除的限額等等已經考量了這個財政的需要還有就是租稅公平以及政府特定的政策的目的還有就是基增減變這些相關的因素來作為訂定的基礎"},{"start":7754.782,"end":7769.632,"text":"第二個就是在列舉扣除項目的訂定當時訂定的目的主要是在減除影響納稅能力的重要生活支出需要舉證實際支出金額來列舉扣除那如果支出金額比較微小或者是舉證困難的話他可以選擇標準扣除"},{"start":7772.814,"end":7797.179,"text":"那我們特別扣除額呢本來是跟所得連結在計算我們真實的所得例如薪資所得特別扣除額或者是鼓勵儲蓄如致利息所得減除的儲蓄投資特別扣除額那後來隨著這個教育人口社會福利以及落實居住正義等等特定的政策目的呢不論在立法委員或在行政部門呢"},{"start":7798.219,"end":7812.029,"text":"就陸續增訂了教育學費特別扣除幼兒學錢特別扣除身心障礙及長期照顧等等特別扣除等等那在113年度的時候呢為了照顧我們弱勢無無的族群"},{"start":7813.01,"end":7837.066,"text":"租屋的需求落實居住正義的政策目的所以在113年的1月3日我們也修正公布了所得稅法藉由委員的提案我們將房屋租金支出改為特別扣除額並且大幅提高了扣除額的額度的上限到新台幣18萬元並且增訂了排付的規定希望能夠減輕我們租屋族的負擔"},{"start":7839.127,"end":7867.122,"text":"現行政府對於租屋族這類的族群其實我們除了在租稅上面給予相關的扣除之外也直接提供相關的補貼包含利息的補貼還有租金的補貼來協助我們這些租屋族減輕他的負擔按照這個劣政部的租金補貼以房客每月領取的補貼金額台北市第一級為例最高可以達到八千元"},{"start":7867.702,"end":7877.634,"text":"那全年補貼的金額加計房屋租金支出特別扣除的上限的金額等同成住人每年最高可以享有政府直接的租金補貼還有間接的租稅補貼總共達27.6萬元"},{"start":7884.942,"end":7901.06,"text":"那已經是符合我們估計應該是可以符合租屋族的基本需求那考量本項的規定是在今年五月申報的時候會第一次申報所以我們建議看看今年申報的情況實施的情況再來評估它的成效"},{"start":7901.801,"end":7928.052,"text":"那對於購物借款利息呢目前我們的規定是在76年12月30日修正公佈那當時也是為了鼓勵一般的國民來購置自用的住宅減輕自住者的利息負擔所以有訂定納稅用人購買自用住宅向金融機構借款的利息呢可以在規定的限額內來減除那另外呢在88年2月9號的時候呢將這個扣除的限額提高到30萬元"},{"start":7929.412,"end":7954.634,"text":"那以113年度中央銀行五大銀行他的這個新承作購物貸款的利率2.171%來計算那尤其是新清安貸款我們補貼後的利率只有1.775%如果用2.171來換算的話利息支出30萬元的貸款本金大概是約1400萬元左右那對一般的首購族來講呢"},{"start":7956.275,"end":7983.64,"text":"已經足之適用而且這個支出的金額並繼其餘的列舉扣除項目的金額以後也可以跟標準扣除來做一個比較來擇優適用已經可以有效減輕中低所得者的租稅負擔再者無購屋能力的民眾租屋自住與有購屋能力而且能夠取得貸款的民眾購屋自住來相比前者的經濟能力相對比較弱勢"},{"start":7984.72,"end":8005.539,"text":"所以我們修法將租金支出改列特別扣除那維持讓這個購屋借款利息放在列舉扣除基本上也是在做一個就是購屋能力還有就是它的這個經濟情況的做一個相對的比較那如果能夠維持現行的"},{"start":8006.857,"end":8015.736,"text":"稅法的規定的話已經可以落實照顧無屋主的基本居住需求的政策議題而且兼顧量能課稅的原則"},{"start":8016.69,"end":8029.72,"text":"那近年來我們其實一直在積極的推動稅制改革那我們本部依照我們本部財政中心的統計呢111年度全國申報戶列報總扣除額佔全國綜合所得總額的比例已經高達62%那全部的課稅所得當中呢僅剩下38%的所得要負擔所得稅"},{"start":8039.967,"end":8066.504,"text":"那再從我們中所稅加戶納稅的情形來分析有293萬戶的申報戶是不需要繳稅的那236萬的申報戶他是適用我們的最低稅率5%的稅率所以將近有80%的申報戶是免稅或者適用最低的稅率那顯示經過歷年所得稅制的優化已經有效減輕我們中低所得者的租稅負擔"},{"start":8068.165,"end":8093.402,"text":"最後為了落實居住正義減輕租以及首購族的負擔我們政府除了我們財政部在租稅上面提供租稅的補貼之外其實像內政部也提供了像租金的補貼鑒於這個中所稅各項扣除而其實一直都是外界關注的焦點社會各界也常常有提高相關免稅而扣除金額"},{"start":8094.142,"end":8121.443,"text":"或增列扣除項目或者是擴大適用範圍的建議那麼覺得為了維護這個財政穩健我們會綜合考量整個財政收入還有租稅公平及稅政簡化這些原則來配合政府的施政優先順序跟各部會及跨部會的合作通盤審慎評估它的必要性可行性及有效性那今天公聽會也非常開心能夠聆聽各個專家學者的"},{"start":8123.284,"end":8143.443,"text":"指教跟建議那未來也可以列入我們修法的參考那以上是我們財政部初步的回應 建請指教那接下來我要做一些補充的回應在回應委員的剛才提出來的這些問題之前可能我先回應一下就是今天也有我們專家學者提到一些"},{"start":8144.324,"end":8155.631,"text":"建議就是包含第一個就是租金希望租金支出扣除來設計一個加強宣導加強宣導這部分那加強宣導這部分我在這邊補充說明我們已經在我們財政部負稅署的網站上面"},{"start":8161.315,"end":8180.375,"text":"設了一個專區設了一個今年租金支出扣除的一個專區那這上面也連結了我們各地區國稅局的服務專線如果說納稅業務人他在申報這個租金支出的時候有相關的疑義或者是說他想要申訴就像剛才講的"},{"start":8181.856,"end":8206.373,"text":"房東他要這個申訴房東不讓他申報的話這個部分都可以向我們國稅局來提出說明那剛才也有相關的專家建議說是不是可以他來提出申訴的我們就列為去了解以後也許列為將來我們加強查核的對象我想這個部分我們也可以請我們各地去國稅局把它入案作為未來查核的這個重點"},{"start":8207.213,"end":8223.413,"text":"那另外呢也有提到就是說建議我們那個在引導這個空屋來提高出租使用的效率我想這個部分我也補充說明一下就是今年其實包含就是內政部主導的住宅法裡面其實它已經對於這個"},{"start":8224.694,"end":8247.816,"text":"公益出租人或者是說我們的房屋提供給這個包租代管業者他其實有很多房屋租金收入免稅的優惠另外也提高了這個租金支出必要費用的扣除額扣除比例費用率的標準同時我們也提出了這個房屋稅地價稅的相關優惠那此外我們今年5月"},{"start":8248.914,"end":8275.285,"text":"也就是新制的房屋稅2.0差別稅率2.0這個制度我們在這個房屋稅的稅率上面呢對於這個如果是房東願意把他的房屋空屋提供出租使用的話他也可以適用比較低的稅率包含像一般我們的稅率是2到4.8%但是如果說房東願意把他的房屋空屋提供出租使用的話"},{"start":8275.845,"end":8301.674,"text":"它的房屋的稅率可以只有1.5%到2.4%這個其實這個制度呢據我們所了解很多現在的空屋已經慢慢釋出來這個很多的我們的房東都願意變成公益出租人也增加了很多的公益出租人我想這應該是我們今年這個房屋稅的稅制可以引導一些空屋作為出租使用這個將來我們也會陸續來觀察它的效果"},{"start":8304.395,"end":8323.69,"text":"那第三個就是有關於這個租屋市場透明化的問題我想這個部分其實財政部也一直很希望租屋市場能夠透明化我們並不反對那但是當然這個涉及到就是整個跟內政部一起共同討論的問題那我們也非常希望能夠租屋市場能夠跟這個售屋市場一樣"},{"start":8330.455,"end":8354.77,"text":"漸漸的有實價登錄的制度那當然這個部分我們會跟內政部一起來共同努力那至於委員的剛才詮詢的幾件問題第一個就是關於這個中小企業的租金的部分我想這個部分因為中小企業畢竟它是公司組織如果今天它因為房東要漲它的租金它其實是可以何時減除的"},{"start":8355.931,"end":8376.98,"text":"因為中小企業它只要實際上有租金的支出它在它所得稅申報的時候本來就都可以核實減除那今天之所以它沒有辦法承受這個租金而至於可能會有歇業的問題這可能不是在我們租稅制度上面也不是在租稅稅付上面可以額外再給它相關的優惠的問題"},{"start":8378.681,"end":8403.469,"text":"那而且如果他真的因為租金漲幅受到影響讓他的收入減少的話其實他的稅負也會相對的減輕那第二個就是剛剛提到這個歐洲法律這個部分我想這個部分應該是等一下內政部應該來回應這個比較不是我們財政部的主管業務那剛才我也有提到就是租用市場透明化會不會影響這個"},{"start":8407.02,"end":8425.72,"text":"這個出租人他為什麼不願意很合時的讓大家知道他有出租這件事情黃委員覺得會影響到他的那個未來出售房屋的優惠當然因為我們現在對於這個出售房屋給予的一些"},{"start":8427.262,"end":8454.992,"text":"不管是土地增值稅的優惠或者是說房地合一2.0給予一些自住上面的優惠扣除都是鼓勵就是房屋自住使用那對於你房屋出租使用這件事情它並不是我們現在在出售的時候評估就是說應該給你額外的優惠的一個條件當然如果說房東要考慮他的房屋的運用的話其實他因為我們現在的條件在那個"},{"start":8455.992,"end":8480.199,"text":"土地徵稅這個使用上其實是非常寬鬆的只要他在出售前的一年他不再出租然後回到自住的狀況他就可以適用到土徵稅的優惠自住的優惠那但是當然房地合約2.0因為我們綁的條件是非常嚴格的如果你要適用這個自住的優惠的話我們是說要6年持續自住我想這個是要讓這個房東自己來評估他要做"},{"start":8484.72,"end":8512.152,"text":"房屋做自住使用或者出租使用當然稅的優惠在他出售那個階段他可不可以享受相關的優惠其實是應該讓這個房東自己來衡量的那第五個就是委員剛剛有提到說房東的所得可不可以分離課稅這件事情我覺得當然這個已經有很多委員有提供相關的意見但是分離課稅這件事情基本上因為我們現在的所得都是綜合所得課稅"},{"start":8513.092,"end":8530.903,"text":"分離總額課稅它是可以扣除它的相關的免稅額扣除還有相關的這個相關的費用或者是說我們現行法律上規定可以扣除的項目以後它是適用不同的稅率可以從零稅率完全不用繳稅或者是它適用5%到40%的稅率那但是如果說我們今天採用分離課稅"},{"start":8535.566,"end":8559.601,"text":"分離課稅的效果不管是任何所得分離課稅它都是就是單一的稅率單一的稅率就是你即使綜合所得本來不用繳稅的你今天的房東這筆租金所得就變成要按照我們分離課稅的稅率來課稅那這個對這些房東的所得其實不一定會有這個納稅的情形的這些房東反而不利"},{"start":8561.082,"end":8587.795,"text":"那反而是對誰有利呢?是對那些高所得者也許是適用二十稅率、三十稅率或四十稅率的人他反而享受了這個租稅的優惠所以這其實分離空缺並不是一件非常公平的所得稅制所以這點我們一直覺得應該要審慎的評估那最後我也提到這個因為川普關稅效應對普法現金的立場我想上次我也舉辦工地會我們財政部已經有"},{"start":8589.336,"end":8610.174,"text":"表達我們的立場那當然這個部分還是要看行政院的規劃啦那以上報告 謝謝不知道委員還有沒有要指教的地方就是普發現金不要發就對了嘛不是我沒有這樣講我說這要尊重行政院的規劃是不是就是我做球給你你就不要接啊因為今天講的是17條啦是"},{"start":8614.838,"end":8640.272,"text":"你我都很清楚 大家都很清楚十七條不容易修啦很不容易修啦 因為裡面太多了蔡銘一堆十七條十七條 裡面根本就修不了所以我才說 婦女課稅有沒有一些東西拿出來專門修一個婦女課稅這個居住正義是很有正當性的啦不是沒有的啊你擔心那個高所得的高所得可以抬主啊"},{"start":8642.313,"end":8659.715,"text":"高所得可以排除啊 如果你20萬以上就不可以用啊我想這就不是那些房東開心的事情因為他們會主張分離課稅就是這些比較有高所得的人低所得絕對不會主張分離課稅的"},{"start":8661.272,"end":8682.406,"text":"不然怎麼衝出來我們另外再修一個法不要十七條啊不然這個修不到啊這個今天黨的鐵拉永遠修不到嘛大家都知道十七條因為他一缸子嘛一缸子十七條對不對風水組的宋組長看到十七條他晚上都睡不著覺啊這個整個大罵罵而已啊罵立委為什麼提這麼多這樣而已啊"},{"start":8684.367,"end":8685.348,"text":"所以你同意民眾黨的提高喔?"},{"start":8711.099,"end":8735.439,"text":"沒有 其實我們沒有同意提高我們是說你提議是提同意啊就跟人家說我們在那裏去修啊先修來再修啊是這一點嗎沒有 因為我們算48萬嘛剛才有講過加上他提高到25萬不是對 但是我們說加上那個內政部的租金補貼其實他們已經每個月就已經明年大概一年大概就27萬了所以已經高於民眾黨委員的提案25萬了"},{"start":8736.42,"end":8754.332,"text":"沒有辦法加上申訴為何不簡單委員這個大家審慎評估啦而且我們希望就是看看今年申報的結果因為今年真的是第一年所以今天不是因為比較弱弱勢者在講話的啦是啊 其實都是弱勢者啦這些享受利益的都是弱勢者 真的"},{"start":8755.713,"end":8782.53,"text":"所以我們現在就是趕快多宣導 讓這些有租金的人趕快來這個處長啊 你是管政院專家喔你如果當部長的話 我不會當部長你現在講得這麼清楚 我就把17條裡面你們可能可以修的 我就拿出來修我就修17條裡面 拿出來幾條可以修的對 也跟個人報告 因為我也知道不要修17條啦"},{"start":8784.391,"end":8809.476,"text":"因為委員17條的提案實在太多了所以就是要看如果真的需要修正的時候就像去年一樣大家的焦點在哪裡覺得可以提出來修正真的是福國利民的才可以拿出來討論可是立委們對17條是高度興趣的"},{"start":8811.615,"end":8826.325,"text":"我知道對你來講是高度的難免可是我們是很怕開花開得太大不會啦不會啦我們不會開花啦好 謝謝下一個那位請內政部長官問一下"},{"start":8839.006,"end":8862.277,"text":"主席還有各位與會的專家學者大家早安那內政部僅就今天公聽會的議題進行做一個簡要的一個說明首先是否應該協助這些無科組或是說這個租屋組將房屋租金或是首購組的房貸利息列為特別扣除我的部分這一塊因為是屬於財政部的一個業務權責這個本部競表尊重"},{"start":8866.024,"end":8880.492,"text":"那另外針對這個是否有效規範房屋租金訂定合理條幅的部分以兼顧租賃雙方的權益的部分那目前在現行法規已有規範在租賃期間是不得調整這個租金的"},{"start":8881.112,"end":8901.715,"text":"在這個住宅租賃定型化契約應記載事項第四點已經有明定出租人於租賃期間不得藉任何理由要求調漲租金房東如果有違反上開情形的話可以依據消費者保護法第17條及第56條之一的規定房客可以予以拒絕"},{"start":8902.836,"end":8924.285,"text":"房東的一個要求並向主管機關提出申訴或是檢舉如今主管機關令其限期改正而藉其不改正者最高可以處以新台幣五萬元以上五十萬元以下的罰款並得按次處罰那此外本部也藉由多元的一個租屋政策穩定租金的一個漲幅減輕租屋的負擔"},{"start":8925.586,"end":8942.86,"text":"租屋市場的租金變動最主要是受到市場供需、房屋條件及整體房價變動等因素綜合影響有關於租約的一個租金金額,是由租賃雙方基於契約自由原則共同約定如果貿然修法"},{"start":8944.056,"end":8963.567,"text":"把這個房屋租金調整的機制納入法規裡面恐怕會影響到房東出租房屋的意願而導致出租的供給量來減少,影響市場的安定與秩序所以這個可能也會對房客來講造成不利的影響所以這塊應該要更為審慎的嚴謹評估"},{"start":8966.969,"end":8992.051,"text":"那為了引導房東釋出閒置住宅增加租屋供給穩定市場租金的一個變動本部也在106年完成這個租賃條例的一個立法建立了租賃住宅專業的服務制度藉由包租代管協助房東出租房屋及管理而且藉由這樣的一個機制也可以釋出一些優惠給願意來參加的一個房東他可以"},{"start":8993.993,"end":9013.146,"text":"還有一些租金補貼、房屋修繕等等的優惠藉由這樣的方式來照顧不同族群居住需求及權益提供民眾多元住居的一個選擇,減輕國人居住的負擔截至在114年的3月底,直接興辦社會住宅,已達成12萬餘戶"},{"start":9015.327,"end":9038.621,"text":"包租代管社會住宅有效契約則是8.8萬餘戶那全國的社會住宅也達成20萬8千餘戶的一個目標租金補貼已核定超過68萬戶對於國人的居住協助實際成效中尚本部將持續關注租賃市場概況及聆聽租屋族群的一個需求"},{"start":9039.241,"end":9053.835,"text":"配合推動健全租賃市場的環境提升租屋安全與服務品質等工作並與財政部及相關機關保持溝通協調以建構更合理透明穩定之租屋環境以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":9057.793,"end":9075.345,"text":"謝謝 這個我請教內政部啊 這個長官啊 這個你們那個土地發97條你知道嗎是那97條啊 就是說這個如果房東亂漲租金啊 你們縣市政府可以要求他請啊這個幾乎都沒有人用到 縣市政府都沒有人用到97條"},{"start":9076.586,"end":9105.726,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上過去在法院有一些判例的確是有在做使用不過這邊也要再做一個回應因為土地法97條是當時在民國36年土地法訂定的時候那個時空環境背景下所訂定的當時是用申報地價的年息10%所以這個金額是非常的低那它在使用上面當時為什麼在租賃條例要以排除最主要在土地法97條它只有限定在"},{"start":9106.446,"end":9129.534,"text":"城市地方的房屋也就是說非都市土地的部分反而不可以適用所以在適用上面會有它的一個不一致之處所以當時我們在租賃條例的第二條裡面就把它明文排除希望把它回歸到一般正常市場由雙方去協調這個租金的一個方式來辦理好 謝謝喔 謝謝這個 這個"},{"start":9134.625,"end":9149.465,"text":"我還是回到剛才這個理事長所提到的 那你請就位提到那個說芬妮克斯威德高屬的有利益啊 我想不見得啦這個 如果你芬妮克斯威德稅率反正是二十三十 那又利益到哪裡呢而且主要是 主要是要讓它透明化"},{"start":9151.087,"end":9175.455,"text":"不見陽光嘛 不見陽光你那個婚禮的話他就可以見陽光了這邊他占一點便宜那邊他就出來了 胡出來了我是呼籲民眾黨團所提的東西就是讓租屋市場透明化嘛這個現在就是大家都不願意透明嘛他租了你就不願意講啊因為以後就實價 實價交易啊我們叫什麼 特別實價交易 對吧"},{"start":9181.813,"end":9197.045,"text":"還是不申報他跟你實際他都已經封你課所以你們都知道了你們不是不申報你們不知道我們現在就是透過保護隊那邊的特別局去找他"},{"start":9213.891,"end":9220.604,"text":"所以那張沒有用的 剛才有點替代那個沒有用那是專員 哪位教授提到的 哪位教授提到的"},{"start":9223.899,"end":9226.321,"text":"因為一般來講你如果分離課稅率不低的話其實跟你們來講說也不見得說會讓那個高屬多者有什麼好處啊什麼之類的"},{"start":9249.482,"end":9265.233,"text":"應該還是因為我們現在跟房東查核這麼多年我們也發現有很多的房東其實不願意就是不願意一定要被我們查到他才會他可能是你們去不願意看你們這個要跟人家要錢這樣子不願意了是不是"},{"start":9268.255,"end":9280.408,"text":"就是因為它 他們就不會自動來申報啦就要透過我們今天這關想辦法查到好 最後一個單位請那個法務部的提一下法務部 請"},{"start":9291.917,"end":9307.005,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生學者專家大家午安今天貴人會召開的公聽會本部應邀列席致表榮幸就今天所列的討論提綱提供意見如下有關提綱一"},{"start":9308.786,"end":9326.032,"text":"將房屋住金或是首購組的房貸利息支出列為特別扣除額或是提高扣除額的部分因為它涉及國家財政收入的整體規劃住稅公平性以及量能科稅原則本部尊重稅務主管機關的政策判斷以及大院審議的結果"},{"start":9327.672,"end":9353.306,"text":"提綱二有關是否規範房屋租金訂立合理條幅以兼顧租賃雙方權益的部分立法目的應該是要追求居住正義兼顧成租雙方的利益良善不過因為這個議題比較複雜牽涉到出租人的財產權的限制以及訂約雙方的契約自由到底具體的規範內容怎麼形成用什麼手段來達成目的"},{"start":9354.447,"end":9375.519,"text":"應該遵守憲法比例原則以及22條契約自由15條財產權以及第7條平等權的保障等等的規定在憲法的框架秩序裡面的立法自由形成空間我們是尊重專法主管機關的政策判斷及大院的審議結果那如果有具體的法條內容出來我們本部會再另行提供法治意見"},{"start":9376.46,"end":9404.308,"text":"那最後就大院委員黃珊珊等四人提案的所得稅法17條條文修正草案的部分一樣是牽涉到財政收入整體規劃租稅公平及量能課稅我們仍然是尊重稅務主管機關的政策判斷及大院審議結果不過如果要修正一條的話我們是建議可能要一併審酌是不是要修正有關事情日期的相關規定那以上意見敬請各位委員學者專家及先進參考謝謝"},{"start":9408.476,"end":9415.777,"text":"好 謝謝法務部的這個副市長那麼請教各位學者專家有沒有不同的沒有的話 這個我做一下的結論 再做一下結論那麼依據立法院職權刑事法第58條的規定委員會應該在公定會終結10天內依出席者所提供的政法意見提出公定會報告送交本院"},{"start":9438.121,"end":9460.181,"text":"全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今日與會者所有寶貴的發言意見作為未來修法之參考並會編成冊送交本院全體委員及今日初列席提供建議的貴賓參閱事實上我們也希望能夠提供電視檔給所有的委員"},{"start":9462.642,"end":9478.172,"text":"另外 如果各位觀眾朋友還有其他的書面意見或相關資料也請盡速提供給我們將並列本次的國務委員會報告再次感謝各位學術專家及政府機關代表的出席謝謝大家 我們散會 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16621","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea730853615cfad272a3e12858f6389dbbbd9360bdedb085222247fd1d47fad4d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-24T08:31:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T13:06:00+08:00","duration":16458,"影片長度":"04:34:18","委員發言時間":"08:31:42 - 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給經濟或社會弱勢者的比例應該要由現行的40%來增加到50%以上讓真正有需求的人能夠獲得更實質的保障讓社會住宅能夠回到照顧弱勢的核心初衷"},{"start":2748.923,"end":2763.682,"text":"第三個建置社宅需求的登記平台然後提高行政效率跟政策的精準度同時要強化租賃資訊的透明推動住宅資訊揭露的制度"},{"start":2764.202,"end":2772.005,"text":"然後降低成豬人的風險來健全住宅市場的秩序這不僅僅是技術性的政策調整更是政府對於公平正義跟基本人權的具體回應我們要讓居住室基本人權不僅僅只是口號而是每個人真正能夠安身立命的保障本席呢懇請在場的各位委員還有相關部會能夠支持這次的修法我們讓法案能夠順利"},{"start":2793.172,"end":2804.171,"text":"出委委员会并且三读通过谢谢好谢谢高金素美委员下一位我们请台湾民众党党团代表麦玉珍委员进行提案说明"},{"start":2815.336,"end":2837.054,"text":"主席好 各位親愛的家人 大家早安本次我們台灣民眾黨團所提出的租宅法部分條文修正草案主要是基於以下三項核心事實與政策的需求第一 我國房價與租金雙雙高漲"},{"start":2839.246,"end":2853.816,"text":"居住压力日增加剧根据主机总数资料截止113年第一季全国住宅价格指标已达到140.82"},{"start":2863.643,"end":2884.525,"text":"比我们11年同期上涨21.4%同时113年6月租金指标更升了106.34%民众买不起租不起的处境已非个案"},{"start":2885.953,"end":2903.471,"text":"而是廣泛常態這對社會經濟弱勢的族群更是重大的壓力也直接衝擊家庭對未來信心與生意的意願第二社會住宅政策執行"},{"start":2904.963,"end":2930.914,"text":"量體也提升了但制度配套仍有不足政府雖然設置2021年達成50萬戶租宅社會租宅的模式目標為社會租宅誰租得起誰申請得到呢仍然制度設計的空閒因此我們主張"},{"start":2933.451,"end":2936.776,"text":"將出租於禁忌或社會弱勢"},{"start":2938.325,"end":2962.93,"text":"折的比例提高甚至50%最少50%明确张意有未成年子女纳入优先成租的对象回应少子化国安的危机建立中央社会租债需求登记平台提升政策依据科学性还有及时性"},{"start":2964.673,"end":2991.803,"text":"要求中央地方定期檢視並落實可負擔租金的原則確保弱勢租得起第三推動社會租宅信辦模式多元化提升效率與公益我們修正建議包括如下名列區段的徵收市地種化"},{"start":2993.303,"end":3019.946,"text":"设载用地取得机制强化包租贷款政策每年包租比例至少50余元者却优先保障弱势家庭的入住鼓励民间参与并提供税收优惑如包租房东可以享每月最高3万免税金"},{"start":3021.892,"end":3043.366,"text":"我們深知社會住宅不只是一間房而是政府對人民居住安全的基本承諾是年輕家庭敢於生意的穩定支撐更是實現居住正義的核心基石因此我們誠懇呼應"},{"start":3045.707,"end":3059.595,"text":"各位委員支持本次的修法讓社會住宅回歸政策的初衷照顧弱勢減輕家庭負擔強化國安基礎謝謝大家好謝謝麥玉珍委員下一位我們請羅志強委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3076.584,"end":3095.809,"text":"主席各位委員列席的官員今天我們討論的議題是關於社會住宅成豬特別是65歲以上高齡者及經濟弱勢群體的居住權保障那為了弱勢我國對這些群體的居住保障我提出了延長65歲以上"},{"start":3098.21,"end":3116.051,"text":"社會住宅承租者租令以及續租期限的修正提案同時建議將收入作為社會住宅租金的計價標準根據現行規定內政部新辦社會住宅出租辦法第11條規定社會住宅的租令以及"},{"start":3117.353,"end":3127.848,"text":"續租期間最長為12年但是考量全體國人平均壽命已經達79.84歲而且某些縣市甚至平均壽命高達83.75歲對於65歲以上的長者來說"},{"start":3132.755,"end":3158.828,"text":"12年的最長租期可能不足以保障他們的居住需求尤其當長者年滿80歲的時候搬遷不易那也是對社會住宅需求最大的時候卻可能面臨無法續租的困境因此我建議在住宅法第25條條文中甄列規定對65歲以上社會住宅成租者應與以例外延長租賃及續租的期限那"},{"start":3160.074,"end":3186.375,"text":"此外許多國家在推動社會住宅制度普遍是以可負擔租金作為租金的計價標準我們目前的地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園也開始採用以收入作為社會住宅租金的計算方式為了落實110年立法院修法的附帶決議我們應該明確規定社會住宅租金計算應該以成租者的收入為依據"},{"start":3187.256,"end":3212.646,"text":"我必須提醒依內政部的統計目前完工的社會住宅只有3萬多戶到2031年底預計能夠完工的數量大概是10.2萬戶即使是賴清德總統能夠連任任內預計會完工7萬戶所以平均每年還不到1萬戶以這樣的速度如果要完成賴總統所提的25萬戶的目標可能就是要再更努力了"},{"start":3213.359,"end":3231.134,"text":"那所以在社會住宅資源稀缺情況之下更應該透過修法來確保我們高齡者跟經濟弱勢群體能夠在社會住宅制度當中獲得更好的居住保障並能夠以更符合實際需求的方式繼續安住那以上謝謝大家謝謝謝謝羅志強委員的說明下一位我們請徐欣委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3247.121,"end":3267.377,"text":"主席各位委员各位列席的官员大家早安本次住宅法部分条文的修正主要在回应房价高涨与少子化的挑战透过调整弱势标准完善申请平台强化税收激励以及资讯公开"},{"start":3268.194,"end":3287.809,"text":"希望能够确实的促进社宅的资源合理的配置与弱势的保护所以第一个我们有关社会住宅市场环境严峻弱势族群住屋的权益呢亟待落实所以对于这个近来全国住宅价格"},{"start":3288.632,"end":3302.929,"text":"继指数的持续攀升房价上涨对弱势家庭带来沉重负担同时我国生育率下降少子化问题加剧使得住宅法第四条原条文中以"},{"start":3304.005,"end":3320.246,"text":"欲有未成年子女二人以上為弱勢的認定標準顯得不合時宜本席提案修正該條文為欲有未成年子女以擴大受惠對象讓更多弱勢家庭可以符合優先申請社會住宅的資格"},{"start":3320.748,"end":3349.257,"text":"以减轻住屋负担第二个建置社会住宅需求登记平台以利资源配置以及政策的执行现行社会住宅采个案完工后再开放申请导致资讯的掌握不足无法全面的统整全国的需求本席主张增订主管机关建置社会住宅需求登记平台要求所有有需求的民众可以先行注册"},{"start":3349.837,"end":3366.017,"text":"提交申请资料经审核后具申请资格此举既能简化申请流程避免民众重复填报也可令政府及时掌握需求动态促进资源合理配置与政策动态的调整"},{"start":3366.678,"end":3394.146,"text":"第三个鼓励民间的参与提供免税的诱因为了鼓励民间住宅所有权人积极参与设宅的供给本席提案对租金所得减免规定进行修正凡采用包租方式办理并作为长照身障托育服务或幼儿园使用者每屋每月租金收入的免税额度调升至从1.5万元调升至2.5万元"},{"start":3395.367,"end":3419.528,"text":"此措施可降低房东出租成本活络租屋市场实现市场与弱势需求的双向平衡同时维护税收公平最后第四点住宅市场资讯要透明政府要收集分析以及公布有鉴于住宅市场相关资讯透明度不足本席建议主管机关定期收集分析并且"},{"start":3420.629,"end":3441.815,"text":"公布的資訊中新增租賃住宅市場不同的物件型態屋齡之每平均數與中位數的價格資訊以上敬請各位委員公決並支持此修正提案謝謝好謝謝徐欣穎委員下一位我們請翁曉琳委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3453.161,"end":3469.148,"text":"主席還有在座的各位官員媒體先生女士大家好本席這一次提出社會住宅出租這個與住宅法第四條條文修正草案那主要的修法重點有兩個一個呢就是要提高給出"},{"start":3469.708,"end":3492.527,"text":"提高出租给经济社会弱势的比例从40%提高到50%一个呢则是要放宽要件降低育有未成年子女的子女人数不以育有未成年子女两人以上为限制那本席考量的理由呢有两个第一个就是目前房价高涨许多"},{"start":3493.348,"end":3497.329,"text":"年輕人還有經濟弱勢社會弱勢的民眾他們買不起房甚至也租不起房屋那麼期待能夠租到社會住宅我們知道我們目前台灣推動社會住宅政策主要目的就是要保障國民的居住權益以落實居住正義那政府在日前也勇敢的提出了121年"},{"start":3518.977,"end":3532.643,"text":"社会住宅的规划目标是50万户包括要设宅新办25万户与包租代管25万户那么中央和地方机关也都很努力的要去新建社会住宅"},{"start":3534.506,"end":3559.114,"text":"推动包租贷款 因此本席主张要提高社会住宅 提供出租给经济或社会弱势的比率由现在至少40%的比率提高到至少50%的比率 才能够照顾更多的人民第二点理由就是少子化 我们知道目前拥有两胎家庭的"},{"start":3559.642,"end":3587.99,"text":"这个户数是低于五成所以有必要放宽限制我国胎儿出生数是持续降低子女扫子女化的扫子化的问题非常严重从一百零九年起出生率已经低于死亡数那么生不如死而且呢依照内政部护身师的统计十年来国人大部分都是只生育一胎所以从一百一十"},{"start":3588.59,"end":3599.498,"text":"年之后生育一胎的就已经超过五成了在此为了要保障育儿家庭的居住权益减轻国人养育幼儿的负担"},{"start":3600.56,"end":3618.608,"text":"本席因此提出修法不以育有未成年子女兩人以上為限那麼降低就是未來只要是有生育一胎的家庭都可以申請住宅那麼在此提出修法那麼希望大家能夠共同支持謝謝好 謝謝翁小林委員的提案說明下一位我們請黃建豪委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3636.926,"end":3643.462,"text":"好謝謝主席安排這次的修法過程本期提的是住宅法第四條修正的草案"},{"start":3644.758,"end":3669.356,"text":"主要是要給予婦嬰未成年子女家庭優先入住的權益第一個當然核心問題就是要點出我國現在真實面對的所謂少子女化的問題第二就是說我們的修法過程裡面希望說不影響原有的經濟或社會弱勢的比例因為現行法預有未成年子女兩年以上的家庭他是同時需要符合家庭總收入未超過主管機關公告一定標準的才可符合資格"},{"start":3670.257,"end":3695.329,"text":"但是我想為了鼓勵生育的部分應該要開放更多育有未成年子女的家庭來入住社宅那我想我國的新生兒人數統計大家可以看到數據的確是一直往下降那本來大家期待說去年理論上大家看好的時候能夠停止這個連續副成長的農年我想但是去年的結果還是一樣這個數字還是創下史上的新低那所以整個少子女化的主要問題在於晚婚跟不婚"},{"start":3695.649,"end":3717.746,"text":"那國人晚婚的趨勢明顯結婚率也持續下降當然影響生育人數那就其原因當然育兒大家不想結婚的還有原因就是說第一是高房價那後續當然教育費用托育支出等等的育兒成本也增加所以說家庭負擔也增重所以我們提出這麼多的政策我想最核心而且經費對各個別家庭對個人支出來講最龐大的就是房價的問題"},{"start":3719.312,"end":3738.918,"text":"那所以我的版本是將這個育有未滿12歲子女之家庭納入新的一個優先的比例50%那我是說不要從現行的事不是從社會現行的社會經濟弱勢的百分之四百分之四十裡面去來分出來而是另外在針對育有未滿12歲子女的部分來處理那我們要特別強調的是我們的版本"},{"start":3739.358,"end":3756.481,"text":"不要不會影響原有的經濟或社會組織者的權益那我們希望從這個社會素材的角度來出發給予這個未育有未成年子女的家庭更多的支持那這樣的修法好可能不見得我當然也知道說不見得跟這個出生率有必然的關係但是我想任何政策"},{"start":3757.061,"end":3785.112,"text":"只要能够尝试我们在针对少子女化的部分都应该进行相关的尝试那现行法的部分当然现在是有规范育有未成年子女两人以上有优先权但是他因为还需要同时符合所谓家庭总收入会超过主管机关公告一定标准的才有资格所以他等于还是在所谓的经济社会弱势里面那我们也看到说我们内政部提出的这个今天的这个书帖里面提到说担心这个如果把这个所谓的"},{"start":3785.552,"end":3799.421,"text":"弱勢或者是經濟弱勢等等這個比例過高的話會有造成標籤標籤化的疑慮我想正是要回應所謂標籤化疑慮我們更應該讓更多的所有育有未成年子女的家庭能夠入住社會住宅"},{"start":3801.042,"end":3829.394,"text":"在社會的定義裡面並不僅只是提供所謂社會入住者居住他還提供了多數的育有未成年子女的家庭能夠入住我想這樣也有效的能夠來解決所謂標籤化的問題同時也能提供我國的年輕人在住宅政策上面他能夠有個安身立命的地方我想他有安身立命的地方他才有可能去思考不然結婚或者是生子的問題所以以上我提出今天的修法請各位能夠支持謝謝"},{"start":3831.944,"end":3841.093,"text":"好謝謝黃建豪委員的說明接下來我們要請內政部劉思芳部長針對住宅法的修法進行報告劉部長有請"},{"start":3849.199,"end":3871.136,"text":"周委早各位委員大家好感謝各位委員對於內政業務的關注跟指導今天大院的內政委員會召開會議審查提案住宅法部分條文修正的草案我應邀前來報告並被質詢針對本次委員們所提案修正的條文我們做一個整體的簡要說明如下"},{"start":3871.897,"end":3890.132,"text":"首先多位委員所提案的社會住宅應該加強租金負擔能力並且擴大原住民青年學子等弱勢居住保障以及納入尊重性別平等觀點的部分按照現行住宅法及其執法各目的事業主管機關皆可依規定"},{"start":3890.492,"end":3905.962,"text":"自行或獎勵民間興辦社會住宅並且按照其需求城中人負擔能力等情形興辦專攻原住民或學生等群體所需的社會住宅按照現行實務作業也可辦理此外"},{"start":3906.502,"end":3936.162,"text":"社会住宅应该避免排挤社会资源分配与标签化若是户在成租比例与标准实在不宜任意的调整跟放宽申请租金补贴的成租人非住宅所有权人未必能够提供详尽且正确的租赁资讯如果要求提供并且定定罚则恐怕会影响申请者的意愿以及引发变相处罚成租人之负面疑虑让政策协助弱势租屋族群打折"},{"start":3936.842,"end":3957.995,"text":"另外内政部已经运用全国的租金补贴资料公布两次租金统计资讯以及补助地方政府执行居住状况的清查作业除了能够达到提升资讯透明目的以外也可以由地方政府按照其住宅状况自行规划清查的对象"},{"start":3958.775,"end":3978.071,"text":"第三提供民间新办住宅必要融资贷款的信用保证并非本部的业务那么为了加强社宅用地的取得除了社会福利基本法以及都市计划法等各项空间社福计划已经明定提供社会福利土地及空间"},{"start":3978.992,"end":3994.086,"text":"內政部已經提報行政院整體開發地區社會住宅土地規劃及取得實施方案的草案預明定地方政府應該留設一定比例土地做設宅使用實務更為彈性以及可行"},{"start":3994.787,"end":4011.52,"text":"另外住宅法在110年修法将公益出租人及包租贷款房东租金收入免税额由1万元提高至15000元已经提供适切租税优惠此外为了减轻租屋者税负的压力"},{"start":4013.041,"end":4024.394,"text":"113年度綜合所得稅的結算申報已經將房屋租金支出扣除額改為特別扣除額曾租人每一申報戶可列報最高18萬元若再就經濟強勢之房東上調優惠額度恐怕會導致租稅不公的疑慮"},{"start":4032.322,"end":4054.567,"text":"所以仍需维持租税公平性与财政纪律的考量之下不宜针对涉宅包租案件数量明定户数比例避免影响业者执行与房东释出房源的意愿住宅法系保障国民居住权益健全住宅市场提升居住品质使全国国民居住事宜"},{"start":4055.307,"end":4072.265,"text":"并且享有尊严的居住环境为了实践我国居住正义的重要为实践我国居住正义的重要法律之一本法在112年刚刚经过修正为了维持法律的安定性如果再做大幅的修正的话"},{"start":4073.005,"end":4093.13,"text":"恐怕不是維持法律安定性的一個必要的思考當涉及學生原住民等社會福利事項內政部也會積極的與教育部、園民會、衛福部以及地方政府等部會來做溝通促請各目的事業主管機關跟地方政府按照權責滾動式的調整跟檢討辦理"},{"start":4095.911,"end":4122.607,"text":"最後針對114年到121年的8年住宅政策的新目標內政部已經擬定百萬戶租屋家庭支持計劃的草案透過直接興辦社會住宅社會住宅包租貸款以及租金補貼這三大政策目標努力達成另外透過老宅延壽整建維護工作發揮在地老化在宅照顧的功能"},{"start":4123.007,"end":4144.893,"text":"让社会住宅满足不同族群以及多元化的居住需求及居住权益充分提供民众多元的选择落实更完整的住宅政策实质来减轻国人居住的负担以上仅就大院委员提案修正法律的条文内容做二要的报告敬请各位委员多多指教谢谢"},{"start":4146.223,"end":4173.902,"text":"好謝謝謝謝劉部長的報告其他單位報告請委員自行參閱我們就刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前原地做以下幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間六分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘我們上午十點三十分截止發言登記第二因為今天法案處理我們就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見好謝謝那我們現在進行詢答首先我們請登記第一位徐姓委員發言"},{"start":4182.892,"end":4184.537,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請劉部長部長有請"},{"start":4191.189,"end":4212.356,"text":"您早部長早辛苦了連著兩天首先本席想請教政府之前一直宣稱已經達社宅目標20萬戶但剛剛羅委員也有提到你應該知道目前完工的有多少吧目前完工有入住的是3萬但是再過幾個月會達到9萬戶9萬戶預計什麼時候達成"},{"start":4219.454,"end":4237.603,"text":"我請署長跟您回應一下報告因為我們大概在這個截止到三月底大概中央家地方大概是接近三萬四千戶但是我們陸陸續續在也就是說我們在這一期的計畫就到121年剛剛因為部長有提到即將達到九萬戶那九萬戶是預計什麼時候達成沒有九萬戶是"},{"start":4246.616,"end":4269.837,"text":"我說明一下因為我們大概是分期分階段沒關係嘛9萬戶大概預計什麼時候達成9萬戶的話可能還要再4到5年4到5年好那為什麼我們政府新聞各方面包含公聽會都一直宣稱說已經達20萬戶說明一下因為我們本來就是在一開始呈報社宅計畫的時候他的定義就是說政府已經發包"},{"start":4271.458,"end":4290.831,"text":"所以是發包的 20萬戶就發包不一定是完成的那我們因為這樣對整個不管是政府的預計或社會的期待還是有一些落差所以有沒有 請問部長有沒有在想說如何提升我們社會住宅的"},{"start":4291.531,"end":4309.101,"text":"完工比率怎麼樣來加速我想委員會常了解那個蓋社會住宅我們確實要如期如質所以我們現在真的是我們也很急但是蓋的部分就是按照品質要能夠完成可是因為我們剛剛在報告的時候有特別提到百萬戶的租屋家庭計劃裡面"},{"start":4310.382,"end":4332.459,"text":"就是社會住宅現在的入住率跟完工率沒有那麼 入住率很高啦完工率沒有那麼高的狀況之下像包住代管或者是租金補貼等於是其他的備變的措施能夠在那個這樣子的一個緩衝期裡面提供給很多尤其是年輕學子的做這個住屋上面的一個補助但是我們還是希望看到就是這個的"},{"start":4334,"end":4359.138,"text":"完工的速度能够掌握好那再来一个是完工另外一个就是全国社宅的目标数就是它的需求到至今好像一直没有科学化的调查所以政府是不是有计划全面建置社宅需求的调查平台确保这个数据是比较准确而且透明呢"},{"start":4361.519,"end":4386.334,"text":"說明一下 應該是這麼說因為現在全國的社宅大概在六都各自有您的意思是說六都各自有在掌握 對那其他縣市呢其他縣市的部分基本上都是中央興建的我現在是說需求度你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":4387.276,"end":4409.226,"text":"需求度現在是沒有所以是有沒有考慮要掌握呢跟委員報告因為他會跟這個他會跟這個把這個各地方的需求的審查標準其實都不一致因為各地現在都會根據自己的社經狀態那你中央主管機關你有沒有要各地掌握嗎不然你都不知道"},{"start":4410.707,"end":4430.092,"text":"就有點像市場的需求我們真的民眾的需求那你怎麼去訂定我們的要做的目標應該這麼說因為各地他也會看你的所謂的租金的水準那其實第二個也會跟他現在的所謂的租金的這個所得跟身份的"},{"start":4431.8,"end":4452.888,"text":"這個分級制所以他會各縣市會不一樣但是我們身為執政我們中央政府難道我們都不需要掌握到底考慮進去嗎每個地方租金不同每個地方需求不同但我就是要知道大概各地的需求是多少依據他的需求也比較能量身訂做吧"},{"start":4453.89,"end":4475.428,"text":"也跟委員報告啦因為其實基本上我們先用全國的總量在看的時候我們現在是用一個標準的2.5%不是你全國總量看你可以是六都掌握然後各縣市掌握匯報起來你們整體的掌握所以跟委員報告啦因為我們現在第一步是先用全國的總量的比例來先抓一個總數字"},{"start":4476.829,"end":4500.705,"text":"然後到各縣市去投入的時候現在是依各地它在一定的人口數以上那我們先去開始進行涉窄的投資所以本席請教就是說你們有沒有在進行這種需求的調查平台要限制嗎第三個就是現在都有陸陸續續在進行但是就會跟委員報告是說因為我們還要統一訂定它的一個審查標準"},{"start":4502.166,"end":4518.829,"text":"他的這個資格的審查標準那依據各縣市不同我們會去訂那訂了出來才會讓民眾去登記這件事情所以朝這個方向然後加速來進行嘛我們希望政府一定要掌握需求你才知道怎麼進行嘛好不好"},{"start":4519.83,"end":4539.038,"text":"那再來想請教就是包租代管中計畫中的仲介業者被指好像經常被指說他是重視數量忽略品質甚至有發生排除高齡或者是單身男性的這種現象所以我們政府有沒有"},{"start":4540.299,"end":4552.009,"text":"計劃修訂相關的管理規範來提升業者服務的標準並且完善的申訴管道最重要我們也要保障一些弱勢者不被排除這個部分"},{"start":4553.127,"end":4575.682,"text":"跟委員報告其實在做包租貸款的部分應該關鍵這麼說對仲介業者來講他是負責媒合跟中間的管理所以其實基本上大概也源自於現在的租屋環境很多房東大概有一些房東大概可能對長者他可能擔心他身體有狀況"},{"start":4576.782,"end":4601.808,"text":"長者還有單身男性為什麼會是單身男性有一些是可能地緣的地緣的關係他才會有這樣的問題有些地緣的關係他擔心男性的話譬如說房東是女性他可能會擔心有一些所以我們大家了解其實對仲介他並不會去排除做這些服務但你們有沒有這個規範相關的管理規範跟我們報告就是說有關租賃方面的一些"},{"start":4602.728,"end":4631.654,"text":"調穩的部分那其實地政司這邊都很努力的在朝向把這個租約的一個規範能夠做得再平等再努力再加強還有完善的申訴管道這些大概都需要這個部分我們現在跟工會在聯絡保持讓提高那個業界的一個服務品質所以這些問題如果有問題民眾有問題都可以跟我們工會或是我們縣市政府然後包含內政部來反映"},{"start":4631.994,"end":4661.518,"text":"好最後最後這個我們社會住宅的中遷率偏低部長您知道嗎是嘛那有沒有想過怎麼樣來改進這個其實就是數量不足啦數量現在還不太夠啦所以現在加緊就對了對我們還要該興建的趕快興建然後有一些可以包租代管的你們這邊做好的這種統整還有一些鼓勵措施嘛是剛剛有講好OK那今天到對最後"},{"start":4663.01,"end":4677.551,"text":"我們在各縣市需求納入比較精準的規劃或者是保障有沒有一些配套措施保障弱勢群體的需求"},{"start":4678.67,"end":4701.11,"text":"優先的被考量?因為現行的規定就已經有了我們剛一路一直講說要掌握需求有沒有在建這個DataPay其實現在的弱勢戶的比例還有中遷率其實是高於一般戶尤其我們現在有初步統計"},{"start":4702.051,"end":4727.944,"text":"弱勢戶的在六都現在的狀況他的平均中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍有沒有在建置這個data data base其實資料其實在弱勢戶的部分本來資料都不只弱勢就整個啊我們從我剛剛第一題在問的對就長期的話才要慢慢去你們已經開始建置了嗎對就已經開始在收集資料收集資料對收集資料有沒有時程你什麼時候這種資料庫會建立起來"},{"start":4729.745,"end":4758.98,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們必須透過行政上的作為逐步去強化所以沒有設定什麼時候要做出來那你這樣根本我告訴你明年後年在這個議題在質詢的時候你都還沒見跟報告是本來就有一些資料庫現在是說如果照委員講的要全面照全國都要的話那當然要一些時間因為非六都你站在中央的立場你當然要了解全國的情況是所以我跟委員報告現在六都的部分大家都已經逐步都掌握了"},{"start":4759.46,"end":4786.218,"text":"但是在非六都的部分會搭配著我們的社宅的主部的完工那其實他就會在當地去收集這樣的一個資訊那這些資訊就會建置成一個平台的一個概念在會上面去統一去做一個資料的一個流通啦好 我們希望盡早看到完善的這個整個資料庫系統還有我們能夠掌握全國的需求 謝謝好 謝謝徐信英委員下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":4801.197,"end":4803.5,"text":"所以主席有請部長部長有請部長早"},{"start":4807.881,"end":4831.101,"text":"依據我們政府目的就是在2023年底就是完成我們的新辦的社會住宅還有包租貸款合計20萬戶的住宅但根據2025年第一季的資料說達成就是10萬零剛才說多少"},{"start":4833.71,"end":4849.487,"text":"10.6萬戶嘛最進度甚至是只有53%此外長期目標在2032年達成50萬戶依然就是平均一年就是1萬戶的速度顯然是福大的這個福大餅卻無法"},{"start":4856.156,"end":4876.552,"text":"實現請問我們部長對於此明顯的落差政府是否有加速的機制還有說張這個墓地可以展現或者讓人民繼續失望呢現在我們政府都在造謠騙百姓沒護照其實有護照騙百姓有住宅其實還沒蓋就是這樣子的感覺我們可以回應一下嗎那個有關住宅的故事我可不可以請說"},{"start":4884.856,"end":4912.377,"text":"根委員報告其實我們自始的這個社宅的興建計畫在講的所謂的達成本來就是含這個發包的部分那現在全國現在全國中央的部分大概都已經陸陸續續在進行中的已經有超過了7萬戶以上的這樣的一個興建跟完工的一個數字現在持續還在增加當中那地方的部分到目前為止也有5萬戶的部分現在也在陸續所以"},{"start":4912.777,"end":4921.472,"text":"原本在講的時候所以我才會報告自始就講的是發包發包就算在裡面發包算在裡面還有在2023年"},{"start":4928.447,"end":4944.333,"text":"2032年的話是完工到2032年12萬戶是一定會完工是一定會完工所以10年後會完工就是包含在你說的數據裡面是一定要做完工就對了"},{"start":4944.713,"end":4969.34,"text":"不是 所以我才跟委員報發包會有發包的數量也就是說我們原來在所提到的2032年是25萬戶的直接興建那這個部分都會持續在進行那目前來講在這個在118年到122年我們都陸陸續續就會把這一個部分12萬戶的部分一定都會完工這個部分是沒有問題"},{"start":4970.899,"end":4994.175,"text":"好 所以說達成就是的目標還差一大截所以我們依據我們內政部的地政司最新的公布在2024年3Q全台房價所比例為10.9倍創歷史最新高的代表說我們家庭需要"},{"start":4994.915,"end":5004.127,"text":"不吃不喝11年才能買房所以我們全台的房價的負擔率為40.28%六都普遍突破50%"},{"start":5010.851,"end":5021.743,"text":"已經遠超過我們國際建議的安全值所以我們在政府除了租金補貼外是否從真正的從房價管控還有我們的市場的資訊要透明去著手"},{"start":5029.372,"end":5058.056,"text":"所以我们希望说大家就是要不要说就是针对我们租金的部分的话我们是否说有一个结构性的改革计划包含就是抑制投机炒房还有调控建商土地的垄断具体的做法还是说我们在政策行销上就是花把在"},{"start":5060.327,"end":5062.469,"text":"涉件 請教一下"},{"start":5069.678,"end":5088.833,"text":"報告委員那個對於房價的部分其實行政院有訂定一個健全房市方案那這是由我們內政部央行還有像財政部相關單位分別從市場面像我們平均地權條例就有兩次打草房的修法那也有一些建議值已經超過我們國際的建議值所以說我們這個就是希望"},{"start":5094.617,"end":5104.64,"text":"大家就是租得起買得起不是再來報告而已我們要有一個明確的政策真正的對我們人民有幫助因為目前我們看到的租宅就是標準的不一甚至說部分地區租宅已經接近市場但是呢我們嚴重的背離就是社會住宅的"},{"start":5121.364,"end":5135.31,"text":"原来应该具备的公益性还有可负担性那是我们民众提出的社会租债修法草案我们民众党提出的建议弱势成租比例以原本至少"},{"start":5138.291,"end":5141.133,"text":"40%也提升為至少50%但是政府現在沒有在採用所以說我們的平台登記系統也是沒有看到啟用雖然是說住宅法在25條授權地方政府可以所得的集計調整社會租金"},{"start":5163.012,"end":5167.54,"text":"涉宅的租金 但縣市定於標準差距真的是很大比如說台北一房"},{"start":5172.562,"end":5176.346,"text":"租金高達是一房而已9000塊但是呢我們屏東不到5000就導致就是租金不一致嘛所以說就是可負擔性所以我們要強調的就是照顧弱勢為針對就是統一租金計算機制與比例"},{"start":5196.366,"end":5198.507,"text":"才能達到我們人民的需求不要說中央跟地方之心落差管理斷層又如何去補助我們上次我們要去就是在新北的時候有去就是去場看"},{"start":5213.153,"end":5227.145,"text":"我們董建宏市長在那個社會租宅的公聽會中也說有承諾社會租宅租金所得的分級會在年底前會公布請問有沒有具體的時間我們認為年底也是太久了啦希望說這個會期是不是可以提出"},{"start":5235.964,"end":5250.3,"text":"好跟委員報告有關於這一個所得分期制的這個部分其實跟地方政府已經陸陸續續大概開過八次的會議了那現在都已經有相關的共識那所以現在正是在草擬這整個的一個作業當中"},{"start":5251.901,"end":5255.364,"text":"所以什麼時候日期時間預計年底還是確定年底你們都預計討論再討論我說我們要預計年底還是確定年底要有一個明確的時間"},{"start":5270.214,"end":5292.219,"text":"就是預計年底之前都是預計 每天都預計在研議工作就是這樣 預計在研議應該是說明了 因為各縣市的差異仍然都有存在我上次有去新北市的場勘的時候每一棟社會住宅 從北到南 只有一個建商在管理"},{"start":5293.126,"end":5309.774,"text":"所以就慢半拍嘛所以呢每一間的進度就是沒有達到60到70%現場我們張宏祿委員還說如果是照我們建築的規定"},{"start":5310.934,"end":5319.776,"text":"早就要給他們罰款了但是你們還是一樣沒有在做管理所以呢我們實際上也沒有達到這個目的我們一般我們不管是買房還是租房都會介紹說我們的房子的周邊10到20分鐘我們有什麼措施這樣子的比如市場啊學校啊公車站啊或者長照幼照啊公約區等等工作的地方"},{"start":5339.119,"end":5359.189,"text":"但是我看到你們的把整個是什麼社會住宅在中間把整個新北市所有的措施把它放在裡面所以我覺得好奇怪呢林鄭要給人家就是這個社會住宅的周邊去調查你們不是把整個放在裡面這樣子"},{"start":5361.01,"end":5366.692,"text":"就糊弄我們而已所以呢還有說我們要問說你剛剛講的是最基本的但是我看到的是這樣子啊還有我們說我們要如何替調查我們社會住宅裡面我們要建的一些公共措施那你們說我們問周邊的鄰居周邊的鄰居住在裡面嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":5385.899,"end":5404.932,"text":"因為社宅也要跟周圍的鄰居要和睦共處所以是要大家所以關鍵為什麼也要周邊區一起融入所以你們要去調查所有的大家的用調查不是只有問周邊周邊沒有住在裡面所以才會有全市全區的一個調查資料調查是問周邊不對啦"},{"start":5407.794,"end":5410.495,"text":"你聽我講完等一下要跟你回我們要問的大家我們要調查是地理環境的需求這邊已經有了市場了我們就不要建在裡面或者裡面我們附近又長照了我們的社會住宅就不要去建是這樣的周邊調查不是去問"},{"start":5429.903,"end":5448.844,"text":"周邊的人這個社會住宅符不符合他們的需求這樣子的建這個社會住宅是因為我們要變民不是平民不是把社會住宅的人框在裡面我們建這個社會住宅針對這裡面的人的需求但是又空間不夠"},{"start":5450.165,"end":5476.799,"text":"連我們活動中心有的有幼兒園有的是有長照有的也沒有完全沒有我去看的是這樣所以你們口口聲聲說不要分族群不要指的歧視但是你們的行為就是沒有去調查的需求你們就是要把平民貧富差距還有說沒有突破城鄉的差距所以我們要"},{"start":5478.601,"end":5490.652,"text":"調查所有的十分鐘、二十分鐘的地方有什麼我們這邊就不要見哪裡有什麼,這樣子才是真正的辨明了讓我們在這邊出的成績但是你給我看到的是這樣你講的跟我看的是完全不一樣所以我們希望說你們做跟講的"},{"start":5503.224,"end":5519.995,"text":"這些不但都有而且會跟新北市政府跟地方政府都有去溝通所以也會跟地方政府都有詳細溝通調查的資料如果是真正的居住正義要把青年族群"},{"start":5520.916,"end":5529.703,"text":"老年族群還有弱勢族群新住民的族群平均分配在社會住宅還有說我們不要把社會住宅我們要突破這樣子的平衡的差距啊所以委員這會跟你原來提案的內容就不一致了"},{"start":5537.048,"end":5539.25,"text":"提案是我們需要更精進但是我看到的我覺得我需要跟你們建議因為我們要脫貧我們不是在2030年還是說我們才建好所以你2030年就是表示說你們希望我們台灣更貧窮嗎"},{"start":5561.425,"end":5565.846,"text":"我們應該要怎麼樣去脫貧 讓說我們建好的住宅如果是大家你覺得到那時候才可以住的話大家等也要死了 等到那一邊也沒辦法住了所以說我希望說我們讓台灣的年輕人已經不是努力了不努力而可以被這個制度狠狠地去壓垮"},{"start":5587.432,"end":5595.955,"text":"政府真的想實現居住落差的正義所以請別再就是空放的口號欺騙人民而且拿出具體的行動還有強化執行提高透明化不能再讓年輕人一代就是在社會住宅的路上租不起又買不起"},{"start":5608.679,"end":5629.207,"text":"就是買五萬這樣子的政策居住正義不是口號希望大家就是我們要怎麼樣符合我們現在的人民的需求不是要去講空話二三十年 十年後才有我們希望的是有真正的脫貧的方案謝謝好 謝謝麥一貞委員 下一位我們請蘇曉輝委員質詢"},{"start":5645.728,"end":5668.654,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席我覺得這個主持議事當然是讓每人盡暢所欲言不過這個時間我是建議也可以控制一下這個剛剛前一位可能相對來講久了一點我們不希望每個人都這麼久對 但是如果等一下有發言比較長的的話主席我想公平對待是比較好一點"},{"start":5670.574,"end":5689.502,"text":"我們應該該講的就讓大家講嘛那重複就不用再一直重複了嘛對不對對啊今天早上是我簽第二個是其他委員其實是簽錯格子我想好心說讓給他結果這樣我一等多等了快要20分鐘這實在是下次不換了好我們請部長跟署長部長跟署長有請好"},{"start":5694.256,"end":5708.531,"text":"部長跟署長我覺得每個委員都平大所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況我們當然無可厚非不過身為一個第三屆的區域委員服務新北要十年了"},{"start":5708.931,"end":5732.736,"text":"我想在這幾年當中陪著我們的行政部門一起在不敢說台灣至少新北各地我們興建了社會住宅光是我服務的樹林英哥我們就有英哥的安居然後樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建我可以看到其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民我們李林長大家都組團組隊非常關心到現場去看"},{"start":5737.057,"end":5747.463,"text":"其實我看到的是我們每個人都充分的對在地即將成為我們鄰居的這一棟大社宅未來要搬進來的住戶們想像的狀況跟公共有的空間大家都熱烈討論"},{"start":5752.185,"end":5771.659,"text":"而且裡面的社宅要到底要拿保留多少成分來做公共建設的部分其實也是跟周邊居民跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府其實都有討論非常的多那個署長我記得很多次根本都是你親自主持的嘛"},{"start":5772.119,"end":5787.826,"text":"那你要不要跟我們說說看這個簡單說明一下我們在做一個地方的社宅規劃的時候到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府來共同決定設計這一棟社會住宅要長成什麼樣的模要有什麼樣的規模以及設備是跟我們報告其實我們在決定在選擇一個地方的時候第一個一定會跟當地的"},{"start":5798.75,"end":5816.591,"text":"當地的縣市政府一定會先討論大概次數都多少次啊大概至少六七次以後然後決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會先了解民眾大概對我們這一塊基地的一些看法公聽會會參與的是哪一些人"},{"start":5817.411,"end":5839.074,"text":"就是在地的黎民 而且含周圍可能30個 甚至包含在地民代嘛所以我才有身份可以進去嘛 民代還有30周圍都會進去討論所以我們從頭跟到尾 光是要到底是同樣的公共空間要有是托育 還是托老 還是是這個黎民活動中心的替代等等這個每一個都大家非常非常多的討論"},{"start":5839.875,"end":5859.711,"text":"如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在耐動建物裡面那耐動建物就已經不是社會住宅了所以你必須要取捨取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論本來就是這個樣子的那我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到了什麼樣的東西我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下看委員看的懂看不懂"},{"start":5860.391,"end":5887.45,"text":"能不能够跟在地平常有连结我觉得你可能要注意一下这个部分不然每个人的经验不太一样也许他没有跟着一栋社宅成长这样的话可能会比较有误会不能理解你的资料这个你可以再讨论一下好那我们再另外来看一下我今天想要问你我在这个提案说明的部分就有说到我们的社会住宅既然是为了要让大家国民可以有事与且尊严所以我们在第四条"},{"start":5888.01,"end":5912.302,"text":"列舉了經濟及社會弱勢的身份有13類其中的一類是有身心障礙者那我在這裡發現的狀況是因為我們未成年人是不能來申請社宅的嘛所以你的第7類別身心障礙者表示他可以申請那是表示他是成年的好那如果我的家庭當中是我的未成年子女是身心障礙者但"},{"start":5912.702,"end":5932.516,"text":"因為他未成年啊所以這樣子有身心障礙未成年者的家庭反而就變成不能來做我們現在的社宅申請人我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長請問內政部是否可參考我的建議在這一條你們的態度如何"},{"start":5936.55,"end":5959.418,"text":"我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的啦所以這個部分是不是因為原始定義是在跟衛福部討論的那既然這個中間或許執行上有產生這樣的一個問題我們是建議先讓我們可以跟衛福部直接透過行政的協商把這一塊直接納進去會更容易不一定要立法"},{"start":5960.698,"end":5976.814,"text":"如果是這樣子的話我是建議這個部分因為它是明確規定這個是可以有文字修正的空間因為它本來就已經是列在法律裡面是入法的樣態但因為我們保障的家庭所以我認為這條有修法的空間"},{"start":5977.555,"end":6007.063,"text":"好沒有關係因為我們今天只有詢答要到下一次的真正修法之前我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論我們在修法的程序當中可以直接就這個來做這個條文做討論這是第一個第二個的話呢我上次有質詢過我們設宅大概是三年一起然後得續住一次嘛再接續申請一次好可是我們進去之後常常是年輕人年輕的夫妻那他們可能有了小朋友小朋友"},{"start":6007.983,"end":6025.237,"text":"長大剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段那麼在入小學的階段我戶籍在哪裡就會非常非常的牽涉到你實際居住地碼然後你的申請學校是哪一間這就是入學規定的狀況"},{"start":6026.078,"end":6046.05,"text":"那當然也還有在小學的過程當中如果你換了居住地址了之後是否有要轉學的部分當然那是另外一件事情但剛剛在入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候所以我曾經提出考慮就是詢問這個內政部"},{"start":6047.851,"end":6077.115,"text":"在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮您的意見如何跟我們報告的確啦因為在很多家庭來講在面臨學齡尤其學齡到了他必須要有準備入學的這樣一個狀態下那這個的確是對於社宅的條件他可能會有更強烈的需求包含他可能連房型他都有不一樣的需求"},{"start":6077.855,"end":6095.749,"text":"對那但是因為所現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多那如果就升多周少嘛就是目前的狀況嘛持續延長就會讓下一輪的會變少沒有錯啊但是在行政措施上當然第二個也有可能他要考慮學區對他也可能必須要搬離"},{"start":6096.209,"end":6111.55,"text":"因為剛好就是我們最卡關的時候那個就是在決定要念哪一間小學的時候啊所以有關這一點我們也參考了委員大家的一個建議啦就是說針對這一個婚育家尤其是育有未成年子女的家庭的部分那這個部分呢我們會"},{"start":6113.408,"end":6140.145,"text":"我們是比較目前朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定的數量的時候我們是不是來考慮來訂定相關的一個專案的一個政策來協助這些育有未成年家庭的他能夠更安定那不一定是在社宅裡面他可能在其他租金補貼或什麼他享有更好的這個照顧讓他能夠放心的即便我是要挑學區我不住社宅了我還是可以"},{"start":6140.545,"end":6157.602,"text":"找到適合的房子那得到政府更多的補助我了解你也注意到這個問題我這樣可以感受到一你有注意到這個問題二你也有在想對策啦但我們因為詢答的時間就是這麼短可能沒有辦法講得很清楚所以我想這個用這兩個題目來跟內政部這邊交換意見的其實是"},{"start":6161.386,"end":6177.906,"text":"社宅大家都喜歡因為他照顧到了經濟弱勢那或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群好大家都喜歡的狀況下社宅現在正在興建但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者"},{"start":6178.607,"end":6206.616,"text":"所以當然就會產生了很多的從入住條件開始一直到續住條件還有中間的租金等等這些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見可是我必須說如果是我們用這樣的一部法律來規定的話就必須要注意到法是強制到社會的每一個面向每一個地理位置每一個溫層不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了所以我注意到剛剛署長"},{"start":6208.056,"end":6230.313,"text":"部長有提到你提到了行政措施這個概念也就是說在我的觀察來講因為問題太多太細太繁雜了所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面需要為行政行政措施保留一個空間這是你剛剛的意思嗎我解讀起來是這樣"},{"start":6230.993,"end":6249.119,"text":"各位委員報告我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法行政措施上能夠針對每個時期不同的需求我們去做一些彈性的一個修正那但是因為立法是比較剛性的一旦做了就是在一定的期間變全國通他不能隨意更動"},{"start":6249.659,"end":6265.325,"text":"好 那署長因為我們已經討論多次不只是在這個質詢台上面啦所以那我今天具體的要求是不是可以請部長署長這邊喔我們社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間了吧現在大概是已經六年了六年剛好就第一輪"},{"start":6265.905,"end":6283.781,"text":"第一輪的這個入住社宅的在就是包括三年加三年續住的這樣叫做第一輪嘛剛好完成嘛所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討的階段你是不是能夠把這一個第一輪完成的狀況到底發生了哪一些問題然後你現在提出的哪一些對策是不是可以列舉並且"},{"start":6285.763,"end":6314.235,"text":"並且我是強烈的建議把各縣市政府就是六都因為六都有時候是自己興建的會有自己的規定那六都以外的大概就是中央代為興建所以會有很多不同的規定同一個問題會有不同的規定比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況還有租金也會不太一樣的狀況那是不是可以請你把這些所有目前的社會住宅的相關規定以及它的優劣意見整理列表"},{"start":6315.295,"end":6341.851,"text":"讓我們在修法的過程中一起來討論哪一些是繼續保留行政措施讓它有彈性有空間甚至可以因地制宜縣市不同有不同的規定那哪一些又是覺得已經都這個實施下來都很棒應該要調整那我們就讓它剛性入法全國統一也不會優惠措施不一樣我想提這個建議不曉得部長署長覺得如何其實感謝 感謝委員其實我們"},{"start":6343.201,"end":6364.345,"text":"委員提這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的應該要趁著這一輪已經做已經租完一輪了然後把所有的問題都彙整那我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平台的會議那我們這就把它從現在就開始去收集這些議題在大平台會議去討論把它聚焦以後"},{"start":6364.925,"end":6382.74,"text":"那其實都可以提供給大院裡面這邊我是希望這個資料可以盡快提出因為如果我們要修法的話一定是要有這份的資料主席你站起來的話這樣就沒意思了你不要亂動啊我自己說謝謝就好我有看時間啊好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝蘇曉慧委員好下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":6398.614,"end":6417.181,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉部長跟吳署長劉部長吳署長有請好謝謝部長跟署長那先要討論的是這個住宅法的修法那其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條就是關於一些經濟總家庭收入平均比較這個"},{"start":6418.901,"end":6439.371,"text":"這個比較沒有符合到主管機關的一個標準的就是經濟狀況比較稍微比較差一點的這些的家庭那現在有個修法的裡面的一個款裡面應該是第二項第二款裡面說是不是可以考慮把這個未有未成年子女兩人"},{"start":6440.765,"end":6462.38,"text":"以上把它改成育有未成年子女的這個部分來去做一個修法的動作那我們其實現在可以看到當然是我們委員立法委很多委員想說提供提出這樣的修法就是針對現在少子女化的一些問題來去做解決那我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今年的114年1月1號其實他也有一個新的規定就是"},{"start":6463.34,"end":6488.692,"text":"新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中匡列10%的名額提供給2名這個子女上的家庭做申請而且來採收簽字其實就是說不管是在地方他也是針對這個有未成年子女的部分來去做一個比較闊讓他可以比較多人的一些的使用那我們現在在中央的修法是說是不是說因為現在可能少子女化的問題其實現在"},{"start":6490.153,"end":6505.265,"text":"根據統計一個家庭可能生育的小孩子不到一個人所以這樣子的修法其實我們希望說這個內政部是可以做支持的一個動作可是沒有想到說內政部今天提出來的報告是說認為你們有你們的立場是"},{"start":6506.005,"end":6532.987,"text":"希望不予修訂喔那所以我剛也特別請教衛福部的一個問題是說現在來講是不是像我們符合這條這個住宅法第4條預有未成年子女兩人以上者的人數其實是越來越少的所以如果把它改成只有預有未成年子女的部分上其實是不會有任何的排擠效果所以是不是有這樣的狀況所以我剛要請衛福部來說明說這樣的人數是不是沒有太大的影響"},{"start":6533.607,"end":6545.132,"text":"所以內政部是不是可以來協助不管在從新北市這樣子幫助少女俗女化的部分中央的部分是內政部可以來協助說也來支持這樣的這樣子的版本"},{"start":6546.667,"end":6569.098,"text":"有關那個剛剛委員所提問的部分我想先綜合跟委員講一下新北市政府他提出預有這個未成年子女兩人以上那表示說他有其他的母法的支撐所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了沒錯沒錯所以他可以匡列的人數匡列的範圍更多嘛所以因為中央有修法地方也可以徵召嘛"},{"start":6569.338,"end":6582.994,"text":"是那就是剛剛我們所說的因為全國有22個縣市那我們如果可以在行政措施上做這個滾動式的調整然後不要用剛性的入法的條件因為我們剛性入法的條件到目前為止是40%的這個弱勢戶是110年修到現在是3年的時間"},{"start":6588.38,"end":6602.772,"text":"那這個部分呢也就是剛剛所說的其實它並不違反就是新北市政府或台北市政府或是桃園市政府他們有自己的一個入住的條件申請的條件那其實都不違反住宅法那這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的現在的那個社會住宅的興建完成入住的量還沒有達到一定規模剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過現在剛好這個六年的時間剛好到一輪的話是不是我們在收整"},{"start":6617.103,"end":6633.623,"text":"其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見的時候呢我們再來統一這樣子我們會更審慎而不是衝突就辱罵所以謝謝部長的回應所以我的意思是說因為現在台灣少子化的問題嘛所以育有未成年子女兩人以上的人數是不是整個家庭人數越來越少"},{"start":6634.544,"end":6663.34,"text":"所以如果說把它改成育兒未成人之旅就變成說一個人也可以的話其實人數的部分是越從過去以來人數就這樣的家庭越來越少嘛所以如果我們做一個修法的動作的時候其實可以讓更多的比如說已經收入已經在政府低於某一個層級以下的這些家庭他不會說越來能申請的總量會越來越少所以就是說修法完了以後就可以跟內政部跟衛福部討論一下如果人數的沒有差距太多的時候其實我覺得可以支持修法好不好 拜託署長"},{"start":6663.98,"end":6672.873,"text":"把這個資料統計一下我想這個後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論就是說現在有一輪出來了那其實"},{"start":6673.803,"end":6701.068,"text":"因為這會跟未來社宅興建的房型對 因為我就有統計如果要那的話連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做一些大幅的更動所以我才會說必須要透過一個統整第二個呢因為社宅興建的數量沒有辦法快速的成長那所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊來提升意願也是一個做法所以這個會需要整個政策上的一個整合整合應該有完整的一個配套"},{"start":6701.508,"end":6722.01,"text":"而不會說只有反映在單一的興建社宅的這一塊是這個意思那後續我們會後再討論那第二個還是我比較請教就是就現在內政部整個的概念來講其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅興建以及包租代管以及租金補貼整體是含在整個的範圍裡面"},{"start":6723.451,"end":6738.744,"text":"可是我之前一直在討論的點就是說租金大家希望說租金市場越來越透明那這部當然也有提說出來說你們會依照租屋股貼的數字統一去統整說整個租金的整個市場的價格可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼的即時性"},{"start":6739.204,"end":6749.77,"text":"而且地域性而受到限制所以至於上次有提到請教的一個點就是說租金補貼的數量越來越多可是相對來講租金申報的比例相對來講越來越低這個問題所以當時我們要開始討論是說像我現在有實價登錄房屋買賣實價登錄"},{"start":6755.413,"end":6777.92,"text":"要求買賣雙方要付申報的義務那有沒有可能租金租屋補貼的部分未來也有可能比照這個我們的買賣的實價登錄所以是房客還是房東你們有沒有這樣演繹的部分說如果未來可以做申報的話租金租屋市場可能越來越透明而不是有這個政府單位在做後續的統整再來公佈"},{"start":6779.522,"end":6801.752,"text":"那個也跟委員報告一下這個我們也大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量第一個部分的話有關於租金補貼的民眾其實他不是專業的一個人士所以你要求他去填那些資料可能他資料的填的部分可能正確性就會有問題就是政府要輔導就像之前那個實價登錄也是政府輔導一陣子了嘛好不好"},{"start":6802.732,"end":6820.208,"text":"那第二個部分的話其實我們租金補貼是要協助民眾來做一個租屋那其實民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關的資料去做揭露以至於他不願意來做一個申請這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些協助的目的不過現在應該應該是說現在都是"},{"start":6823.232,"end":6837.853,"text":"請這個租賃業者嘛來去做實價登錄的一個部分如果租金補貼的話就不會經過業者了我要了解就是說其實現在有一個規定就是有這個申報的一個動作就是就是這個租賃業者來做申報的一個動作嘛"},{"start":6838.514,"end":6862.212,"text":"所以就是說我認為政府在這邊部分的說我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做所以你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的一個逐步性的一個措施以及辦法就供你們做參考好不好那個部分的話有關於租金統計的部分我們現在半年固定以後半年也會以後半年都會有一次嗎那當然是希望說可以越平凡是越好區域性也可以越好不是一個區一個區為主"},{"start":6867.056,"end":6885.465,"text":"好那第三個我還是要請教就是民眾所如果有需要社會住宅就是新建社會住宅的這個民眾所長期還是要請教署長的問題就是說現在這其實排隊還是排非常的久那當然剛剛有提到的一個問題是說就是因為現在數量還是不夠多嘛"},{"start":6885.785,"end":6901.369,"text":"那我現在請教署長是不是有重複登記就我了解如果你現在在入住社會住宅的時候其實你還是可以依照你的需求登記不同的社會住宅比如說我未來有依照我的戶籍或者我的學區或者我自己本身的需求可以登記其他社會住宅"},{"start":6903.83,"end":6927.406,"text":"這個部分 這個國土署會內政部有沒有一個想法說有沒有一個限制就是說我是所有都可以登記還是說我只能限制登記兩三個而不會造成大家每次在領這個號碼牌的時候都是兩三百號兩三百號那個心情會覺得說好像沒有完全看不到一個盡頭那我也認識很多的朋友其實抽社會住宅了以後其實六七年他都抽不到新的社會住宅等等的一個問題那是不是請署長有沒有重複的問題其實對社宅來講因為"},{"start":6931.409,"end":6955.09,"text":"對很多民眾來講他可能是一個生活圈的概念也就是說或許我住在板橋但是呢他覺得他上班的地方我可能在新莊那我可能在中和所以他可能在選的時候他就會覺得那既然我有我是以生活圈的概念去他可能這幾個區他都去挑那這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他因為從生活圈的概念他是正確的那這也是我們認為說為什麼"},{"start":6956.671,"end":6972.991,"text":"去主張一個大平台大家都去填反而會造成這個數量是暴增的沒錯就是數量會讓人家覺得有點暴增到會覺得你更難抽那所以才會說我們為什麼在這一方面會很審慎的要繼續評估也就是說因為你很難克服那個地域性"},{"start":6973.491,"end":6991.578,"text":"他的一個需求那也跟剛剛也有委員提到還有學區的問題沒錯有些還會為了學區再特別去加抽好那署長實際的關係就是個問題因為本席的選區在中和啊也常常跟署長會跟這個住宿中心開會那因為我們有11個社會住宅那本席是說我大膽"},{"start":6992.518,"end":7007.896,"text":"這一個建議啊因為社會自然興建過去可能就是一些國有地可能在做臨時做停車場或是一些綠地的一些部分喔那本期之前都有需要都是有提說其實你們都做得很好就是會有一些比如說這個讓周邊的民眾比如說"},{"start":7009.538,"end":7025.18,"text":"長照日照或托嬰托幼中心或是李明的共享空間我覺得都很好那可是因為人數在這個空間裡面的人變多了停車需求會變得更高那所以我在想說社會住宅是不是有有可以就是規定說一定的比例"},{"start":7025.88,"end":7051.281,"text":"就地下室的停車位一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾來使用比如說5%、10%因為我相信你們在做社會住宅的規劃的時候一定常常開會的時候都會有討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題你們有沒有可能研議說我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例那邊有沒有在研議說多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民來去做租用"},{"start":7051.601,"end":7055.377,"text":"然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的一個一個到來"},{"start":7057.025,"end":7083.328,"text":"的這個建議啦因為其實各地都有類似啦那其實現在的狀況只是因為說涉及到管理問題那所以過去也有曾經有這樣的案例但是事實上後續的管理呃衍生了新的糾紛啦那所以這個部分我們也會委員的建議我想我們會持續來討論尤其是針對某一些個案他如果真的周圍在地這個需求非常強但是實務上要怎麼去處理我想我們都會"},{"start":7084.028,"end":7092.926,"text":"個案跟住戶中心再來討論看怎麼解決這類問題拜託署長以及住戶中心大家都很辛苦謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝張志倫委員的質詢下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢"},{"start":7108.246,"end":7127.879,"text":"那就不用動了啦部長麻煩了我先請教署長其實我們現在所說的社會住宅大概有分成中央興建跟地方興建的兩大部分是不是"},{"start":7130.14,"end":7156.293,"text":"是不是 是 是嘛那中央的他的一些辦法跟地方的一些個性式的辦法有沒有全國一致目前沒有因為各地方政府還會有他因地制宜的一些方法沒錯啦 這個其實你說各地方要求跟中央我覺得也不盡合理你以這個我們雙北跟你比如說其他的一般的"},{"start":7157.402,"end":7179.014,"text":"不是彰化什麼的這不是六度的我看條件都不一樣這也不適合說全國都一致那問題來了署長會長請教一下那我們今天如果修這個住宅法可以解決我說的這些情況嗎事實上還是很難因為"},{"start":7181.007,"end":7206.187,"text":"你太剛性的立法下去以後會讓他地方實務上可能會產生一些執行的困難所以我們才會覺得說比較需要多一點反而是透過行政措施或行政協商盡量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策是順利的在進行是通常會用這樣的方式來進行立法"},{"start":7207.641,"end":7231.801,"text":"是一個很明確但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準這其實我覺得我們從這個點去思考可能就是會有很大的問題我想再繼續請教一下就是說我們現在解決住宅的問題應該是分成社會住宅一塊"},{"start":7233.705,"end":7255.246,"text":"然後這個什麼租金補貼啦或什麼的這又是其實就是很重要的一塊我們目前台灣是不是大概比較重要是這兩塊來解決住宅的問題是其實基本上大概就是直接興建租金補貼跟包租代管三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群"},{"start":7256.4,"end":7283.259,"text":"對啦 租金補貼跟包租代管 我認為他的性質比較一樣啦齁不然你 我請教你 你一個就好了齁那你覺得這兩個 兩大資助啊現在的運行起來 其實有沒有解決了大部分的問題了是 不不我請教一下部長謝謝委員現在除了直接興建住宅以外齁我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來互數"},{"start":7285.011,"end":7307.17,"text":"已經高達八十五萬也就是說至少有八十五萬戶的人是接受政府的這個社會住宅或是租金補貼的一個協助而且都集中在都會地區比較多因為都會比較會需要這個 也跟工作性質有關謝謝部長 部長你先回去坐那再來喔"},{"start":7313.925,"end":7338.958,"text":"署長這剛剛布宅已經講了解決了大部分但我們必須要承認還有一些布還有一些問題沒有解決像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題在修法的裡面有可能關切一些議題比如說住宿宅的設宅的人我們現在是六年嘛最多嘛可能這個青年人"},{"start":7340.306,"end":7354.052,"text":"他這個六年他小孩子剛好要上小學了剛好又要搬遷其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊吧我不知道署長你的看法"},{"start":7354.534,"end":7377.098,"text":"了解應該是這麼說因為有可能他入住的時候他還單身或是剛要結婚所以他很可能在抽的時候他去抽了這個單人房但是他已經遇到小孩子出生要甚至要上小學他開始要分房的概念的時候其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已他還有轉換房型的問題"},{"start":7378.001,"end":7396.464,"text":"那這個就會讓我們現在的這一個直接興建這樣的一個困境會出來就是說你成長的速度還不夠快但是你也面臨了下一輪的問題那所以這也是我們在過程當中一直希望透過像租金補貼包租貸款這一類的輔助性的措施"},{"start":7397.903,"end":7422.618,"text":"提供更多的行政上的措施來協助他們你不是只有直接興建的可以選擇你也有其他的可以選擇那我們來強化那一個部分讓你在這個轉換的過程當中那當然社宅抽得到最好那抽不到你還有其他的方式來進行那這樣的話能夠讓他的居住的租屋的環境能夠更穩定我想這也是一個比較好的一個替代的做法"},{"start":7423.592,"end":7431.718,"text":"好 再一個問題我們弱勢啊雖然我們現行的法律的規定大概40%嘛是但實際上"},{"start":7434.887,"end":7461.686,"text":"也實施好幾年啊他們實際上啊 真正入住的比例是多少根本報告大概我們跟六都都有去調查過了那大概實際上的這個因為他除了弱勢戶以外他還可以抽一半戶所以他等於有兩支籤的機會那所以至少都已經是46到56之間也就是說都是弱勢46到50也就是說正式來講他已經過半了"},{"start":7463.682,"end":7477.847,"text":"實務上他已經過半了所以這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法如果他一樣握有兩支籤他就會可能掏垮六十幾甚至衝到七十這樣的問題會跑出來其實我為什麼要特別問這個問題"},{"start":7479.588,"end":7494.024,"text":"其實弱勢的定義不一定只有它是中低收入戶其實我們的定義我們現在的法令來講它的範圍蠻廣的啦就弱勢是不是蠻廣的是嘛當然弱勢我們要特別照顧這個"},{"start":7495.407,"end":7514.472,"text":"沒有話講但以現在實際的執行上來講你說已經超過50而且中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍數字我要跟署長報告一下我跟你說數字是冰冷的啦你剛剛講說46到56其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣這1XXX%很難說服大家但"},{"start":7524.955,"end":7548.96,"text":"可以有一個很清楚的就是說因為弱勢他是可以抽兩次這個可能大家都不知道很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次所以他的中籤率就會比較高那我們如果說提高到50%我看可能提高到六成那你有一些青年人"},{"start":7550.199,"end":7577.16,"text":"他可能就被排擠到囉一些青年可能就抽不到囉應該說青年那個族群是更大的一群但是他的種籤率又會越來越低他可能那個總數是更大的但是他可能種籤率會更低這也是我們比較擔憂另一類的排擠的問題我的意思說如果你提高到50%如果這樣的話青年那一塊可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛所以啦署長"},{"start":7577.74,"end":7600.422,"text":"我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題啦你覺不覺得啦其實這個社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後其實到現在啦雖然執政八年但不可能第一年的做吧要編預算要編什麼吧大概第二年第三年開始蓋嘛對不對那到現在也大概有好幾年的時間了嘛對不對"},{"start":7602.082,"end":7624.201,"text":"署長 是有沒有需要一個總檢討的時候了就是我們推行一項政策大概一段時間了可不可以去檢討這個政策利弊得失然後我們去再稍微精進你覺得有時間點到了嗎對 根文報告也剛好今年很多社宅都是第一輪"},{"start":7624.981,"end":7647.833,"text":"已經就是六年已經處理完畢了已經出租完畢了那都已經進行第二輪那這也是剛好可以總結一些問題的涉宅直接新建涉宅的問題那以及來討論後續的解決對策那所以這一個也看我們會找六都一起來討論看看他們對這一方面的一個政策"},{"start":7648.994,"end":7670.176,"text":"甚至回饋到我們整個的這個直接興建社宅的要面對的問題來做一個總檢討這個部分我們會來進行實際上我真的覺得啦今天的很多的修法其實有一些觀點他是對的是出現了問題了但你們也說你們也在檢討也在做了我覺得啦"},{"start":7671.685,"end":7697.721,"text":"與其我們這邊在這樣子我覺得要給你們時間你們弄出一套你們的想法你們的解決對策什麼的來給我們內政委員會然後讓大家來思考如何去改進你覺得可以嗎這個我想我們一定會來會朝這個方向來做可以啦好謝謝好謝謝張宏祿召委下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":7707.827,"end":7712.609,"text":"主席 我們請市長 請你休息一下吳署長有請 委員好市長 辛苦在今天探討的主宰法裡面我們要探討的 應該是加以核大部分因為我覺得這個規定當中像剛才張宏祿早前說的"},{"start":7735.04,"end":7747.372,"text":"你的弱勢拿高一點,現在不一定40%因為我們煮粥的時候就是10%嘛開始意義,覺得不足不足,到現在40%嘛40%的時候,今天有"},{"start":7751.556,"end":7754.079,"text":"整個啊,我們當然可以說,都提供到50%啦但是在這裡面,我所擔憂的就是說,我們的弱勢要照顧,年輕人我們也要照顧"},{"start":7766.9,"end":7773.445,"text":"這是最重要的,說到那裡,像高麗就好了,高麗在北京,我們已經在派友中的美女的眼前,安寮已經發飽了,但是還沒工作,到現在還欠工的時候,安寮不知道當時的眼前也不知道,"},{"start":7791.337,"end":7800.459,"text":"但在這個過程當中,嘉義市有很多年輕人都回鄉回來也有年輕人看到嘉義市好大好做生意,對著他的抱負他也很愛在嘉義來生活所以在這個生活圈當中,年輕人像剛才所說的"},{"start":7816.843,"end":7828.61,"text":"年輕人會排擠到是不是這樣來這裡輸掉你為何要這樣這就是我剛才所報告原主席的這個抽籤在大概6歲的部分他目前規定40%才會輸出已經實質上已經是破50%了因為就是說已經有救了"},{"start":7837.976,"end":7847.918,"text":"他可以抽兩遍所以他的機率就比較高嘛是是,所以你如果救50%以上我們煩惱的他就是會衝到60%到70%這樣挽留我們這個像他比較年輕人或是說他當他有工作,當他有工作開始在做有需要的時候,那你有需要結果他的族群是非常大但是他的重簽率會越來越高越來越高,越來越高他反正這個弱勢族群的重簽率就是"},{"start":7864.381,"end":7887.342,"text":"已經差不多三倍,一半後的三倍你如果叫我管的時候,他的重簽率會更加高所以這邊會越來越高,我想對這個年輕人來說因為現在房價上升,他又等於有收入結果我沒辦法買房子的時候,我等需要做房子的時候結果這部分的重簽率會更加高這樣我想對他來說,他會更加失望,我想這就是我們這個政績中"},{"start":7889.622,"end":7901.936,"text":"救出一個兵型的時候我們必須要考慮不一樣的族群的族群裡面的一個兵型的問題對啦 因為署長說實在的我們每一個族群我們都要去照顧我認為說"},{"start":7906.385,"end":7926.883,"text":"你的照顧當中,我們都說到弱勢,弱勢更加要照顧,對不對?但是最先前,我們想要去社會住宅,就是基礎正義,再來去社會住宅嘛是不是這樣?是嘛,在這個規定當中,我覺得每一個官司的訴求"},{"start":7932.167,"end":7940.014,"text":"賣一定是一樣的像嘉義,我剛才跟你談到這個也很大觀的再來未來嘉義市,未來鐵路高架開始漸漸完成的時候,要聽到他們附近的"},{"start":7951.124,"end":7971.99,"text":"所以在這裏面,我們也有可能,我們的地方政府把你們的中央用專案來處理,也有這個可能啊你有沒有想到,因為當時現在有的去鐵路高架,因為一本身可以說住在車頭附近的"},{"start":7974.651,"end":7993.719,"text":"比較都是在台中所在的醫醫比較很弱勢的就是這個問題的存在所以我剛才說的每一個官司每一個官司的訴求跟需要是不一樣的"},{"start":7994.759,"end":8007.422,"text":"市長你知不知道我自己的需要可以跟你說的這個問題可以來頂跟中央因為這件事來彌補一下來做專案有可能嗎來市長你講一下委員報告啦因為你像現在那個鐵路哥計劃的這個補分它一定做成"},{"start":8019.825,"end":8035.149,"text":"某一些程度的拆遷這我過去在台南有處理過一樣的問題所以台南那時候用的是安置住宅是用安置住宅但是這不是每一個地方政府都可以一定用這樣但是我想可以比較好的建議是它有點類似可以找"},{"start":8038.89,"end":8067.119,"text":"公寓的好,就是說類似用都更的方式我去另外辦一個叫做安置出租住宅,它有可能是地基間的也有可能是做一個六棟、十棟,那就叫安置出租住宅那是兩岸,用類似都更的方式,我想加以其來公寓地也有但是對這個公寓地就是說,它不一定是當局一定要做這個提供的部分但是你就可以讓類似用透過都更,它是部分的"},{"start":8067.879,"end":8082.369,"text":"是做出一百萬可以做土地的出分但是一百萬它的公益性設施就是做安置出租住宅這樣的話呢可以提供給這裡的因為這個鐵路局計劃它沒有地方大 現在沒有地方大它可以來這裡做我想這也是一個改革的方式對啦 因為市長"},{"start":8086.832,"end":8092.337,"text":"因為我們要發展到要想到我們的白色地方需要什麼問題可以來解決,然後等到之後還要來解決要來找可能也不會有,回家過到本地也不會有啦"},{"start":8102.805,"end":8105.446,"text":"在這裡本席跟你談到在這裡也希望我們地方和中央會有一個合作的機會再來本席要跟你談到的就是說我們嘉義市的北港路有個案的規劃裡面在最近"},{"start":8121.713,"end":8125.978,"text":"你們有來同意他們來做的時候,未來你們要怎麼去做?地方有需要什麼嗎?因為我覺得這是自己的人所擁有的地方,因為我覺得有自己的故事說出來,就會發展"},{"start":8143.596,"end":8148.761,"text":"可以加一條而已所以說這是對嘉義市政局的發展跟經濟很大關係但是我也認為我們的中央可以繼續合作對應因為我說實在我不愛分藍綠也不愛分東排只是對應的發展再做好不然有時候說實在"},{"start":8170.72,"end":8173.244,"text":"你們做到老高,風險到老大,這樣就不好啦所以在這裡,你有需要補充,我們加二次,北京路的區域生育會發展,協助什麼,請你回答一下"},{"start":8187.443,"end":8208.564,"text":"感謝委員已經 蘇蝦跟我們問很多遍了我相信這案因為拖太久他伺服過去已經拖十多年都不好處理了處理的過程中 內容一直變更都是大幅度的變更所以我們責行這審查委員覺得說他現在所作的內容已經被十幾年前他提出來要做個人變更的理由已經完全沒有了"},{"start":8213.528,"end":8232.245,"text":"所以...所以...但是呢,他考慮到北京樓的這個...但是一定沒工的嘛,時空背景不一樣,當然...所以...所以可以跟他說,這個保安啊,原則上我們是支持但是呢,因為你的廠所已經完全都沒工了所以退黨,叫你退頭,會公開電纜,你要退頭先開始做第二,這是一個...所以過程中..."},{"start":8240.052,"end":8248.159,"text":"主席,不好意思,我讓你解釋一下,你說加以管治聯合作為作為,現在有一個國會聲音說,加以管如果不同意加以治做,加以治又不能做,是不是這樣?應該是說,加以管政府,不管是在這個電影政府的公開電纜,跟企圖會的審查過程中,它會當標識意見"},{"start":8265.151,"end":8268.392,"text":"甚至到內政部的時候,他也可以標示意見對啦,是標示意見發展、公開、大家相擁啦是是是你是說,加議官,同意不同意齁來做先加議事,會發展啦"},{"start":8281.136,"end":8295.532,"text":"當然中央的角色一定是說地方政府一定要聯合一定要合作你不可以說是互相抵制但是我們不可以忽略對方的需求啦我相信這是一定的嘛主民黨大家都好這樣互相照顧你也好我也好這樣啦我們希望看到是這樣啦希望看到是這樣"},{"start":8302.339,"end":8308.563,"text":"抱歉,今天我要利用這個時間問候咖啡廳的發展,因為有很多百姓有時候沒了解他想說跟中央那樣,都沒得替咖啡廳來想辦法,這樣就不好了在這裡本省也要拜託咖啡廳,因為咖啡廳的政府也有非常認真發表"},{"start":8326.795,"end":8338.482,"text":"我希望我們中央家庭保障 能夠將七八公路這條路來完成 加上加上旅館 做一個橋樑讓他們能夠更好地溝通 以上謝謝王美惠委員的諮詢 下一位我們請黃婕委員諮詢"},{"start":8357.148,"end":8374.377,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請署長好 署長好今天因為其實都是在談論這個租屋的正義那其實租屋的正義包括非常多的面向所以前面我想要先討論一下最近在我的選區有一個非常紅的日本飯糰店"},{"start":8375.658,"end":8393.554,"text":"那這個飯糰店他紅到什麼樣子呢就是這幾天大家為了要聲援這個老闆所以每天都去排隊支持他們那他們的週分是什麼其實也跟這個租屋的合約有點關係那當然其實大家就是在討論說這個租屋族啊"},{"start":8394.435,"end":8413.815,"text":"就是到底房東可不可以隨意的漲約那當然合約都是白紙黑字寫得非常清楚那再加上他們是租店面嘛所以是商用的契約那這個商用的租賃裡面當然就是回歸民事的這個就本來就是雙方協議不可以隨意漲租那不然就是照民事的這個合約下去走"},{"start":8414.255,"end":8429.821,"text":"那可是呢還是有非常多的選民因此來跟我反映因為其實他們平常是租屋族然後他們遇到的狀況差不多很多都是說第一個就是要準備要續約之前房東就跟他說要跟他漲租不然就不能續約"},{"start":8431.241,"end":8444.682,"text":"那另外一種就是在合約期間當中可能他一次跟你住三年那他在第一年的時候就跟你說要隨意的調漲那不然就是說之後也就不讓你租了那這種情況其實屢見不鮮"},{"start":8446.565,"end":8467.995,"text":"那我想要问的是说其实在世界各国针对这个租赁其实都有蛮多的专访那我在这边举几个例子就是以美国加州来说就是如果房东现在要涨租那涨幅在10%以下房东必须要提前30天通知那如果你一次的涨幅超过10%必须要提前90天通知"},{"start":8468.905,"end":8497.005,"text":"就是他在调整的这个幅度跟他的时间都是有一个非常明确的规范的那英国也是看他的租期不同他的年租如果是年租的话必须要在六个月以前通知六个月哦然后如果是月租就是必须要在提前一个月之前通知那纽西兰也是说你至少要在六十天之前就要书面通知如果你想要跟访客之间的契约有变化的话"},{"start":8497.705,"end":8520.844,"text":"那日本也是甚至日本是有一個借地借家法他們有個非常明確的租賃專法裡面是說如果房東跟房客之間他不想要再租給這個房客了必須要半年之前就已書面通知而且必須要寫上非常明確的正當理由才不可以就是你才可以跟房客終止合約喔所以"},{"start":8522.265,"end":8546.297,"text":"相對國外其實有蠻多對於租屋族這對這些租屋的權益是有更明確的保障的但是在台灣好像租屋族都是無可挖牛必須要到處流浪那甚至我自己租的經驗非常多就是租了大概十年的房子那也都是必須要看房東臉色看他要不要租給你看他要不要漲租看他要不要有一些更多的條件的變化"},{"start":8546.917,"end":8566.412,"text":"那所以我在這邊是希望說不知道國土署針對這種房東跟房客之間的權益的保障可不可以有進一步的研擬進一步的建議 甚至未來有沒有機會我們也來擬一部租賃的專法呢根本報告這個部分因為在部裡面它是屬於地政司的業務是不是地政司"},{"start":8567.362,"end":8587.032,"text":"委員好那有關於我們一般租屋族的住宅租賃的部分其實委員剛也提到在我們定型化契約裡面已經有規定到租屋約期間不能任意漲租的規定那如果有相關問題這個包含我們的消保單位都可以來協助民眾來做一個處理那委員剛剛有提到一個部分就是國外有些"},{"start":8587.452,"end":8612.226,"text":"對於住宅租賃的部分也有提前如果你要解除租約終止租約前房東要在多久以前去通知房客包含說可能他租期的長短不一樣可能會有不同的做法其實我們有收集到這些相關的資訊那其實我們在做一個租約的一個規定的一個檢討的時候其實我們現在也有把它收集我們會做一個滾動的一個檢討來更保障那個民眾的一個權益"},{"start":8614.787,"end":8638.279,"text":"那你們目前是打算要收在哪個現在可能在定型化契約的部分的應記載不得記載事項裡面看可不可以先去做一個檢討的規定不過因為其實這個部分的話我們也在收集相關的租屋族有沒有相關的問題因為我們那個規定也剛修過所以可能會在下一次的通盤的部分的話一起來做一個處理"},{"start":8638.959,"end":8663.431,"text":"好谢谢说明那可能就是未来会在这个住宅租赁定型化契约应记载及不得记载事项跟或者是有没有机会在消费者保护法里面有更多的权益的保障那如果可以的话希望下一次通盘前逃的时候再把这部分就是包括提前多久然后必须要告知然后还有就是这个明确的书面的理由这些都要写上去"},{"start":8663.891,"end":8686.613,"text":"好謝謝好那再來繼續講這個社宅這個社宅其實我們也講了很多次了啦那我覺得最大的問題包括因為其實我從在當議員的時候就不斷的在講社宅的輪候制那甚至是還有這個租金的一定比例的透明化然後還有就是可以入住的條件資格等等其實都討論非常多那我覺得最大的問題還是成量不足"},{"start":8687.403,"end":8707.944,"text":"那成量不足這個問題實在是現在都是各地必須要一起來努力啦因為以高雄來說因為我們市政府非常配合就是我們努力幫忙找地然後努力幫忙協調在地的鄰里的關係然後努力幫忙協調在地的一些使用的方式所以呢目前其實高雄的進度都還算蠻順利的"},{"start":8709.045,"end":8725.831,"text":"那我這個覺得當然要跟各縣市再努力再協調啦只有再努力再協調才可以把全台灣各縣市真的有辦法空出來的地全部找出來來蓋社宅嘛那這個是目前要達到存量最大的目標那我算了一下喔因為"},{"start":8726.591,"end":8745.039,"text":"應該是說我們還是要再繼續往前看怎麼說呢因為以目前我們內政部門目標8年20萬戶目前其實最大就是包括把興建中以絕標還有在規劃中的全部加起來就是大概18萬戶啦我必須老實說嘛目前就是這樣那如果達到存量的比例大概就是1.9%"},{"start":8746.46,"end":8768.277,"text":"那其實以國外來說我還是要講一下先進國家裡面的社宅存量的比例是非常非常高以歐洲國家來說荷蘭是29%然後英國16%然後丹麥19%芬蘭18%瑞典18%那以亞洲來說當然亞洲相對低但是以日本來說社宅的存量也有5%那我們是1.9%"},{"start":8769.318,"end":8792.185,"text":"而且我是加上興建規劃然後絕標全部加起來全部就是只有1.9也就是說當我們存量不足的時候我剛剛提的那些制度問題包括可不可以趕快輪候制啊可不可以趕快把資格條件放寬這些都很難往下討論因為我每次講完我前面那些我都已經討論過了包括資格條件可不可以再寬一點啊然後趕快讓輪候制進場"},{"start":8794.386,"end":8820.365,"text":"然後甚至是全國有一個統一的登記的平台這些大家才不會抽籤抽籤率這麼低嘛可是討論到之後每次國土署都說存量不足真的就是沒有辦法往下走所以我在想是不是這個存量的問題可不可以優先的解決然後目標再往前放18萬戶還是太少啊全國如果我們最後真的全部完成了1.9%耶亞洲最低都有5%是"},{"start":8822.011,"end":8846.596,"text":"我們其實也是努力因為即使到下一階段我們大概也是到2.5%2.5%就是我們認定的低標啦我們起碼要先努力往那個低標邁進那這個低標25萬戶都出現了那這個就可以去談有沒有這一個全國具體的一個輪候的統一登記卷輪候的否則就會像我們剛剛所講的"},{"start":8847.356,"end":8855.128,"text":"我可能為了自己的生活圈需求我就一直在重複登記而且重複登記越多其實大家實現的輪候會越困難這也是我們在考慮的一個問題所以這我們還是會努力的往這個"},{"start":8862.016,"end":8888.236,"text":"達到2.5%這樣的一個存量的目標先來邁進好謝謝署長那這個就是一起加油那因為其實這個輪候制我真的也講很久了啦所以如果可以我知道有一些地方也開始試辦那如果可以的話其實還是可以先並行然後之後的話我們就慢慢都朝向輪候的方式去改因為確實歐洲的成效還不錯那我們也都看到這個是我們可以遵循的方向好謝謝署長"},{"start":8892.01,"end":8917.863,"text":"好,謝謝黃街委員的資訊,下一位我們請李博義委員質詢有請署長吳署長有請委員好今天很多委員的提案都是針對住宅法住宅法其實包含哪些人有資格住,他可以住多久"},{"start":8918.479,"end":8929.178,"text":"那這些包含弱勢的比例到底我們希望把它放到哪一個程度那包含弱勢那另外年輕人到底我們要怎麼獎勵他"},{"start":8930.576,"end":8948.407,"text":"年輕人他住在社宅裡面他現在目前有兩個小孩他會有比較優先的資格之外有沒有要再放寬這個都是今天很多委員提案的內容裡面的一些法律提案但是社宅其實從"},{"start":8950.642,"end":8975.986,"text":"2016年開始倡議到2022年其實我們就做過一次住宅法的修法但到2025年也就是今年其實第一批的社宅其實剛好大概很多比如說林口比如說有些地方的社宅滿6年的那滿6年會遇到到底政府的政策是要輪動還是說政府的政策"},{"start":8977.276,"end":9005.749,"text":"針對這些目前所提出來包含弱勢包含很多種原因的人他有沒有多住幾年的空間這都是接下來要討論的而且在從2025年開始從今年開始包含我的選區從實安居那包含我高雄市有非常非常多以高雄現在在招招台積電進來那在台積電周邊光是左營男子光是左營男子周邊"},{"start":9006.878,"end":9032.966,"text":"兩公里到三公里的社宅就六千多戶正在已經決標凍土包含重石、青峰、永青、海附、海景、福山還有G20有非常非常如火如荼的都在進行但這些社宅目前還沒有成型那高雄市政府跟我們國土署還有住戶中心也都很積極的在"},{"start":9033.976,"end":9063.452,"text":"在找這些可能可以在興建社宅的土地可能可以興建社宅的土地如果遇到被重度標籤對未來這些社宅的土地取得還是會有一點影響這些都是政府必須要面面俱到的去關心的我想另外今天還有一些針對租金補貼針對房東房客當然政府你一定希望這些租金是"},{"start":9064.913,"end":9086.614,"text":"逐步透明而且平穩那房東希望什麼房東就是希望他可以不用繳最好就是這個免稅額度可以提高這也是在今天很多修法的內容裡面但是我們要保障房客的是什麼東西我們要保障房客的也希望房東不要"},{"start":9088.168,"end":9117.336,"text":"因為這種不愉快然後房子不租給房客讓房客有不安全感那另外我們也希望透過租金補貼的方式來取得相關這些租金的這些逐步的透明化讓這個租屋市場平穩這些都是在修法內容裡面我們當然都支持弱勢我們當然都希望保障房客我們也希望鼓勵房東把這些房子拿出來做公益出租但是怎麼樣取得一個平衡都是接下來我覺得"},{"start":9118.103,"end":9139.006,"text":"跟署長要做一些很精細的討論的東西啦所以在這邊先我們先不如果說下午沒有進入這個討論的話我想希望國土署針對我剛剛講的這幾點吼那還有包含可能未來從今年開始"},{"start":9139.54,"end":9163.989,"text":"明年後年2025、2026、2027都會有完工的戶數都會有完工的戶數之後那所有遇到的這些問題的統計還有最重要的喔很多縣市政府現在也在興建我那天安排包含內政部董事長跟署長一起來高雄市的這個從事安局其實高雄市的獨發局就跟你們講很多"},{"start":9164.52,"end":9190.777,"text":"因為他們已經遇到很多這些包租代管還有相關的這些費用的問題很希望可以傳授一些美甲給你們也希望透過接下來如果國土署這邊可以跟所有縣市政府做這些交談交流可以對我們即將大量完成的每年度即將大量完成的這些社會住宅有很正面的意義的幫助"},{"start":9191.468,"end":9201.955,"text":"那所以在這邊先請吳署長你是不是可以針對所有縣市政府目前已經興建好的社宅那可能有一些已經要"},{"start":9202.694,"end":9226.218,"text":"已經要面臨他第一次的六年要滿了那另外有一些比如說高雄市有幾個社宅他已經搬進去一年兩年所遇到的這些相關的問題做一些交流跟請教來署長跟文報的確啦因為我們在每年的這個每一季的檢討會還有跟各縣市政府跟六都有一個社宅的管理的聯合大平台"},{"start":9226.798,"end":9242.063,"text":"其實陸陸續續都收到很多意見尤其從去年下半年到今年上半年剛好很多都是輪完第一輪都輪完第一輪其實大家都累積了非常多的經驗當然有不錯的也有很痛苦的"},{"start":9242.483,"end":9271.358,"text":"那這些其實都有回饋給我們做這個在後續要做設宅因為接下來是接下來這幾年中央的完工的設宅會大量的釋出這樣今年大概就有4000戶左右那到明年更會有大概7000戶左右那大概每一年都會維持一定的數量會開始釋出那所以相對的在管理經驗上就更需要因為它遍佈到全國我們必須要更了解有些在地性的問題"},{"start":9272.378,"end":9296.759,"text":"那這是一個第二個就是說其實很多我們在興建設宅的過程當中也很擔心被標籤化這也是為什麼我們今天在弱勢的部分會特別要注意這個問題因為相對很多年輕人他也會擔憂弱勢比例值提高會不會相對他的他的重簽率就會大幅的降低那所以這一點也是我們在這過程當中會很審慎我們希望透過更多的行政措施"},{"start":9297.559,"end":9312.827,"text":"來解決這個問題而不是一定要透過修法那透過行政措施能夠達到平衡的狀態下可能會做得更清楚那第三個就是說當然這過程當中在一般民間的這個租賃合約不公平的這個部分其實"},{"start":9314.087,"end":9336.943,"text":"在我們這幾年的這個包租代管也好或是租金補貼也好都產生很多這一類的問題那這一些呢我們也都有跟地政司合作地政司現在先行的部分先透過這個定情化契約的修正那把一些房客比較受到不公平對待的部分譬如說任意漲租啦或是這一個水電費電費的這個課徵電費的這個收費標準"},{"start":9341.696,"end":9367.982,"text":"不合理的問題通通在裡面明確的定義那這些我想我們會在這幾個月收集各縣市政府他們所提出來的問題我們會再做一段時間這我同意啦這確實需要一些時間做一些交流跟這些資料的收集最後針對國土署已經在整體開發地區的社宅取得方案已經報行政院了嘛那如果已經報行政院了那我希望"},{"start":9369.895,"end":9385.037,"text":"可以具體的來執行針對區域計畫或者是公辦都更裡面到底多少比例必須要來興建設宅因為非常遺憾的台中市的狀況現在國土署要也要不到那所以說希望未來在這些相關審議的過程裡面"},{"start":9386.274,"end":9404.549,"text":"那國土署就提供更具體的這些方案那現在報行政院的部分可以趕快具體的來實施是這個部分我們其實抱怨的部分就會涵蓋都市計劃審議中的還有現在它的在重劃區或區政區已經取得的我們這一個部分是已經取得的可以嗎"},{"start":9405.632,"end":9433.574,"text":"在行政措施上就是可以但是如果今天立法的話那一塊反而會拿不到這很重要喔如果立法反而會拿不到那我們透過行政措施直接跟地方政府協商我們可以取得現階段縣市政府手中已經握有的四地重劃區案徵收區的土地就可以進行協商來取得我覺得這個對台中現在真的標高的房價一定有一定有很正面的注意啦是 這個我們也葡萄樹也有一些具體的這個行政措施"},{"start":9434.094,"end":9446.965,"text":"可以在縣市政府他對於涉災不積極的情況下中央政府也可以來做是這個我們會朝這個方向來努力好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝李博弈委員下一位我們請吳啟明委員質詢"},{"start":9461.633,"end":9479.663,"text":"好 主席 我們一位同仁 請郭突署 吳市長吳市長有請吳市長好 針對今天的機制品質的改善與政策的討論我們都知道 我們過去有很多大樓 現有的大樓充電樁的問題"},{"start":9483.171,"end":9505.561,"text":"那其實我們也知道說在2019年我們的修法通過我們後來蓋的大家充電樁都沒問題但是之前的這些大樓還是存在的問題因為存在的問題住戶至於要做但是沒經過管委會同意法院的判決判決住戶的敗訴"},{"start":9506.653,"end":9515.83,"text":"那未來咧,我們抓新舊的大樓我們要怎樣來協助我們的舊油的我們的大樓的管委會"},{"start":9516.887,"end":9544.213,"text":"這邊我們要怎樣內政部要怎樣做規劃親愛的署長來來來重視這問題感謝委員因為在這一個充電樁的安裝的這個部分其實關鍵是你把車子引到地下室可能引發的這個公共安全疑慮的問題尤其是他的這個鋰電池火災是目前證實是無法直接撲滅他只能透過大量灌水降溫那或者是利用這個防火毯"},{"start":9545.513,"end":9573.761,"text":"避免毒煙的擴散所以我們把這些包含充電樁的安裝程序還有第一時間的防火還有降溫的措施都請消防署訂定在它相關的指引當然地方政府有些也已經做了一些指引我想這個指引可以讓公益大廈管委會是比較放心的也有一定的方向可以遵循"},{"start":9574.321,"end":9603.244,"text":"那這部分消防署應該在最近就會把它做一個比較完整的訂定那我想這部分部裡面統整如果確認以後應該會提供給各縣市政府還有我們也會到時候會邀公益大廈管委會來一起做一些討論那希望他們遵循這樣的指引然後逐步的把這些安全措施做好那這樣的話才有機會讓他下去的時候所有的住戶是比較安心的"},{"start":9603.715,"end":9621.19,"text":"好 市長是針對我們地下室停車場但是大樓有開放空間是不是未來朝那個開放空間我們也不要限制在地下室在開放空間我們也可以來設置我們的臨時的充電座其實我們也是希望說先用開放空間讓住戶心理上比較"},{"start":9628.897,"end":9647.046,"text":"能夠接受這個東西那他逐步再引下去你安全措施做好了那再讓他下去好 再來我就跟你討論社會住宅因為我們社會住宅目前在我們都會區裡面大家注意社會住宅期望值都很高"},{"start":9649.755,"end":9664.496,"text":"非常的高所以說在我們都會區裡面社會住宅我們在推動的腳步還不過快因為我們有很多是我們的國有財產是我們公家的土地公家的土地我們要取得會比較方便"},{"start":9666.027,"end":9690.693,"text":"取得方便,我們未來興建的速度才會快那所以說在未來,我們會在我們都會區裡面是不是有整套我們怎樣來取得土地,這最重要嘛你再整個發包程序,那都是趙正堂程序,那也很快因為我們很多我們也不要講弱勢啦,就是沒有房子的人"},{"start":9691.414,"end":9719.965,"text":"他們都很期待我們的社會住宅那社會住宅你還要制定的就是今天你抽到的時候你就不能隨意的來轉租或是存在的問題就是地下室的停車問題那一定要把它制定比較嚴格要是被查到的話第一就沒收然後你罰款"},{"start":9720.943,"end":9746.061,"text":"絕對一定要把它制定因為你沒有制定比較重的罰款變成他們的車位現在車位都是魚味籃球大家都知道這樣才可以落實說真正需要的人他們來抽到他們可以改觀引起爭議這就是我們政府要的這部份我們在我們訂的部分都已經有明確的"},{"start":9747.339,"end":9770.792,"text":"原則上中央蓋的大部分不會再有就是說還有空位再去額外驅逐出去了當然有一些看地方的特殊需求那或者是說我們的車但是我想委員所建議的非常好就是他管理一定要非常嚴格不能讓他有所謂的轉租的行為讓不管是涉宅本身或是停車位讓這部分我們會會嚴格來要求"},{"start":9771.448,"end":9780.91,"text":"因為過去的曾經發生就是我們的合宇住宅板橋的合宇住宅合宇住宅當初就是一些"},{"start":9782.062,"end":9803.874,"text":"不肖的商人 找了很多人頭去抽 抽到了之後然後他想辦法 哎喲 破產啦什麼然後在金華院認定判決 就用法拍的名義 對就用法拍的名義把他低價飆售出去 對 對所以這都是我們要賀字的方向 好不好 對好 這部分我們會努力好 謝謝市長 謝謝好 謝謝吳清明委員"},{"start":9817.449,"end":9821.851,"text":"好 現在請我們下一位劉行廷我們召委 謝謝謝謝主席 劉部長 吳署長有請委員好部長辛苦了"},{"start":9835.959,"end":9861.994,"text":"因為剛剛我是會議主席所以我簡單講一下這個住宅法我們這邊的提案說明這個本次住宅法的修正本席提的兩個法案修正案分數如下第一個是修正第10條第57條之一部分主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化也就是說不管是包租貸款甚至是申請租金補貼因為現在其實大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受這個政府對於居住正義的努力嘛但是你收取補貼的時候我們花了非常多的人民的納稅錢"},{"start":9863.035,"end":9884.384,"text":"要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已不能只停在福利的層面而是要讓這筆開支效益最大化所以在申請租金補貼的時候其實應該是要有房屋租賃房屋的相關資訊包含地址契約起期日每月租金數額租屋型態租屋面積比例等等這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候政府就已經取得這些資料了"},{"start":9884.844,"end":9910.022,"text":"那公寓出租人也依租宅法第15條一項規定就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的一些政策優惠所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分的來做揭露透過更大的市場透明去避免租屋黑市才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好或者是租金的補貼也好發揮這個更大的政策作用另外新增第21條之一的部分是講所謂的社宅土地儲備"},{"start":9911.042,"end":9926.554,"text":"剛剛前面委員質詢的時候其實也有提到這署長當然擔心民文入法不見得取得但是如果看一下法條內容大家就會知道就是說這是在強制全部做區段徵收或者是勢力重劃之後取得的所有的配餘地不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售"},{"start":9927.114,"end":9947.319,"text":"而是要留一定的比例而且作為社會住宅的建築用地使用也許中央沒辦法取得因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府但是地方政府可以取得嘛那只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情我想把它明文入法化我覺得是有其必要的這是提案說明那今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長跟署長討論一下這個"},{"start":9949.58,"end":9975.591,"text":"一樣我們都還是談社會住宅啦因為我看眾觀這麼多委員跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本其實大部分雖然方向若有不同但是大多還是都關切其實社會住宅入住戶的這個資格提這樣子版本的委員是相對多的那麼也非常多關心其實重簽率的問題包含稍早我們各委員會各委員的詢答其實都有問嘛我們到底供給的數量夠不夠啊"},{"start":9976.071,"end":9993.448,"text":"等待的時間有多長啊 中遷的比率會有多少的影響啊現行的機制顯然有一定的改進之處啦那我想請問一下署長部長也可以啦 如果部長知道的話如果部長不知道 署長回答我們現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人等待啦 就是等待中遷的這一群人"},{"start":9999.417,"end":10013.882,"text":"的確只有我們的各縣市的都不一致你中央有的數據我們現在光林口到上一波我印象沒有記錯我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700700個人在等對"},{"start":10018.363,"end":10047.218,"text":"然後可能每三四個月只會釋出個位數只會釋出個位數嘛所以就700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等嘛對對對然後這只是其中一個案例你如果全國各地呢那應該更多啦那應該更多對不對應該而且大部分應該現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都吧北三都嘛當然嘛北漂工作等等區域條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點嘛那這樣子你們從這樣子的數據來看你們覺得現在社宅的缺口還有多少"},{"start":10048.584,"end":10076.961,"text":"射載的缺口你要蓋到多少戶才不會有等待的問題所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到一個所謂的低標也就是說25萬戶其實25萬戶就是我們認定的射載存量的最低標那時候可能就會削減掉比較多的這個輪候的這個部分如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員答詢就講說我們達到2.5%之後我們再來做輪候嘛不是就是說那時候輪候的效果"},{"start":10078.594,"end":10097.791,"text":"就是輪候的效果它的效率會提高啦今天沒有達到那個時候輪候的效率其實是很低的啦但是還是要做吧我覺得對對對因為就是因為缺乏的時候大家對於那種我今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的那種感受才會特別強烈不是嗎可是換另外一個角度就是因為"},{"start":10098.584,"end":10120.634,"text":"重複登記的就是跨跨點登記的會暴增因為當你的數量不太夠的時候所以大家都會搶嘛其實就是搶對不對所以會看到那個數字會更更膨脹會膨脹得比較厲害你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽薪當然就會出現這樣的狀況所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公廳會嘛很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到就是說你應該是統一登記嘛"},{"start":10121.7,"end":10143.623,"text":"然後你當然也可以做調整嘛比如說我們上次公定會其實建議叫做不只是輪候還有積分制嘛也就是說你用不同的身份你有不同的分數嘛你如果集中登記不要在那邊亂槍打鳥你分數可能高一點其實我覺得這些都可以透過平台的技術手段來做解決啦但是我對於署長剛剛去回答其他人講說我要等到低標存量的時候我再來推輪候我個人是非常質疑啦"},{"start":10144.296,"end":10159.13,"text":"因為我覺得越缺的時候越需要人做啊那時候輪候的效果才會出來但是也不表示現在不能推對不對對其實現在我們有重複在考慮就一併做了一併做但是會跟大家講說一開始效果不會很好是因為那個數字會被膨脹的很大"},{"start":10160.051,"end":10180.562,"text":"沒關係你針對不同的樣態我們可以找各個世界各國也許他的實踐的狀況來做交叉的參酌我們也可以討論制度的設計我想這次我們去排住宅法的修正其實就是希望針對這件事情做一下討論因為我是覺得如果要討論現在他討論說我們要放寬多少的弱勢戶的比例一般戶的比例你增多"},{"start":10181.229,"end":10208.943,"text":"加多加少其實你都動輒得就嘛就我增加了一般戶的比例其實弱勢戶就被壓縮了福利的本質就不見了但你如果把它納入好像又有重複中簽的問題所以它導致了很多的問題所以我其實覺得以目前來看這個建立統一的平台處理需求把身份東西重新整理然後把抽籤改成輪候恐怕是比較眼下比較需要的做法署長你同意這樣說嗎對我們其實是用逐步來建立這樣的一個資料平台"},{"start":10209.727,"end":10226.227,"text":"現在的狀況的確是這樣上一次我們一開始在討論租屋的題目的時候是談租屋市場透明所以你也講你要逐步我這個人一向非常開放就是說我會給你時間去做這個事情那我現在問你如果說我們現在討論統一登記平台輪候制的這樣子一個設計請問你的時間表是什麼"},{"start":10229.251,"end":10255.727,"text":"我們現在就是說剛剛有提到就是說因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪了那所以我們現在的狀況是說我們先把這個所謂的資料欄現在過去的成租資料欄格我們現在做一個統整也就是說像剛剛委員所提到我們希望你包含你現在租金補貼領售戶的那你現在所需要的這些欄位我們先把它做一個統整讓大家可以去填"},{"start":10256.147,"end":10275.636,"text":"那同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求都會接接在一起因為這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚也就是我今天不是只有登記我還需要知道你的狀況還有你的這一個所需要的方式所以它有一個資料庫然後有一個平台對不對那具體來講這個資料庫或這個平台什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家的面前"},{"start":10276.568,"end":10292.63,"text":"我們現在是今年會把整個架構都把它呈現出來先把架構呈現出來然後會現在是目前跟跟這個住都跟跟我們的知福斯都已經在討論那我們這個架構出來以後我們要用什麼樣的方式住都來建呢"},{"start":10293.11,"end":10318.779,"text":"還是來請制服師來幫忙建那這個部分我們都有在討論當中我們希望這個欄位確認跟各縣市討論如果都確認那我們就先來把這個東西那你把推動這樣子的一個計畫的詳細時間表嘛你比如說我幾月之前要開完多少會嘛什麼時候我要申出架構什麼時候我要再跟比如說大家學者專家商量等等你中間有一個計畫圖嘛對不對你這個會後來提供好不好好好因為這個不管是住宅法要不要因為我們要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面"},{"start":10319.799,"end":10340.916,"text":"跟你的行政措施你會要求要彈性嘛因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法我們是希望一邊做一邊讓他保持有彈性我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據啦今天大家答詢前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常非常的紮實嘛好不好這個也請部長要叮嚀一下好不好把相關你們現在如果不希望修法那你們的政策作為是什麼"},{"start":10341.596,"end":10362.231,"text":"好 相關的資料要做一下提升好 第二個我們談輪候制之外其實背後都核心原因啦就是社宅供不應求嘛才不會有這麼多的問題那為什麼會供不應求除了建設的速度當然說原物料上漲啦什麼取得土地不見得容易等等的一些因素之外其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要做一個通盤的考量嘛"},{"start":10362.831,"end":10392.031,"text":"過去我們針對房東有很多的大赦條款這一次的住宅法的修正也有很多講說我們把免稅額度再放寬其實目的是什麼部長你知道目的是什麼嗎我希望更多的房東來加入更多的房東來加入對不對其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的嘛對不對這個叫做增加供給的概念嘛對不對可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好你們覺得有充分釋出嗎"},{"start":10394.853,"end":10419.54,"text":"應該這麼說啦因為透過包租代管系統的話其實這樣的成長數字其實是一直在快速擴增當中我不是講包租代管我講的是一般市場我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量的釋出因為我們之前討論租屋市場透明化對不對然後有些人擔心說會定毛為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去其實不外乎就是持有的成本太低了嘛"},{"start":10420.18,"end":10449.637,"text":"也就是說我現在不來配合你包租代管或者是我要直接出租等等我要付出的代價我不如乾脆放著如果那個租金不夠高我乾脆給他放著我們現在全部閒置的本來可以出租但不能出租的各式各樣的空屋啊空的房子啊數字你國土署有沒有統計過閒置的對大家以前講空屋稅、囤房稅這種空在那邊沒有在用的明明可以出租給大家的沒有在出租的數字是多少"},{"start":10452.125,"end":10454.469,"text":"這個10%的房屋如果充分的釋出到租屋市場會不會降低租金水準"},{"start":10467.347,"end":10491.458,"text":"會 會嘛所以我不希望說我們現在討論住宅法法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅規範包租貸款等等但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低未來房市的負擔不要太大關鍵還是正常市場那請問內政部部長或者是國土組組長針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場你們有什麼配套措施"},{"start":10494.704,"end":10515.204,"text":"其實我們在之前一些一些包租貸款的策略上其實最早都有希望討論這一些但是後來也經過一些案例大概實證大概是這樣因為很多的這個空屋他尤其所謂的低度用電戶他其實都在等待著可能類似因為在等待房地合一歲"},{"start":10516.465,"end":10535.317,"text":"他也等待防疫了第二個他如果有多汙足他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的我有公益出租人我這一個免稅有多少沒有啊是他擔心的綜合所得稅的問題綜合所得稅嘛綜合所得稅啊這些也是我們在歷史跟財政部有在討論啦但是財政部他在考慮整個租稅的合理條件的狀況他其實"},{"start":10535.973,"end":10553.042,"text":"也沒有辦法同意說這個時候又再大的辦公之所以有這麼多人持有空第一個是持有成本太低對不對持有成本太低不需要付代價第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大不管是綜合所得稅以及你一旦出租房子你就沒有一聲一聲房地合一稅等等的稅率優惠通通不見了所以對房東來講我寧願控制"},{"start":10554.102,"end":10571.592,"text":"我覺得這件事情雖然他跟財政部要做一個跨部的協調但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵嘛我們的房地產市場租屋市場能不能正常化其實我覺得在這個地方在稅率的部分要做徹底的檢討所以我覺得住宅法是一軌但是財稅的部分是一軌這個我們希望內政部部長這邊我要這個就要拜託你了"},{"start":10573.333,"end":10597.939,"text":"這個雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好但是跨部溝通啊就是要求在持有成本的增加逼著這些房東把空的房子試出來逼著這些投資客拿出來出租啊這個我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法啦因為我們剛剛也講嘛我們要增加社宅的供給你盡量去蓋你取得土地我們都給你相關的政策工具你要降低大家對社宅的需求就是你一般市場的房源要試出來嘛"},{"start":10598.399,"end":10603.088,"text":"所以這部分我希望有明確的這個進度可以嗎今天複稅署也有代表過來要不要請他來可以"},{"start":10607.948,"end":10632.534,"text":"跟委員報告我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革從今年開始我們就會加重那個多屋族的這個囤房稅他的稅率會加重但是他如果房東把他的房子試出來出租的話他的房屋稅就可以降低就比照自用住宅嘛對不對是是是這個已經有改革然後今年5月是第一次首次首年上路啦那我們會持續觀望這個實施的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":10633.354,"end":10643.374,"text":"你覺得剛剛我們這個內政部這邊講這個現在空的房子是10%左右在這樣的制度上路之後有沒有KPI會下降到幾%你們有沒有討論過這個事"},{"start":10645.492,"end":10671.692,"text":"我們會持續報稅因為今年五月才第一次首年上路沒關係這個題目我們先打開放著但我希望負稅者做一下思考就如果房東的減稅誘因不夠你要有大赤條款都可以討論但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來嘛我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求所以很高嘛所以我覺得除了這個社會住宅的討論之外這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了請各政府單位做好準備可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":10674.629,"end":10678.694,"text":"謝謝主席我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署新秀署長劉部長吳署長有請"},{"start":10695.021,"end":10719.408,"text":"部長好署長好部長針對各部會的解凍案現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈請各部會儘速將1584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院那請問部長內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院報告委員現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院是那我們在前兩星期"},{"start":10723.456,"end":10743.03,"text":"對就今天送到立法院是好那請問一下部長您應該有看到一個這個公文就是文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好了麻煩那個他早就寫好了這個簡訊報告了所以請他們務必要確認有被"},{"start":10743.769,"end":10755.487,"text":"要再浏览一次要改一下确认不会被解读成早早就写好现在才送的字眼并适时更新数据请问内政部跟所属的机关有没有这样的一个状况"},{"start":10756.475,"end":10771.483,"text":"報告委員我們應該不是這樣的處理啦就是說第一個包括我們內政委員會的委員或者是大院的委員所提到的有關凍結案的部分呢我們邀請其他的署或者是其他的內政部的人呢就是在討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的這個報告"},{"start":10775.325,"end":10792.599,"text":"那在過去一段時間以來我們都是一直在滾動式的調整那因為那個院長啊這個下令叫我們在今天要送上來的時候呢我們在前兩天啊做最後的一個報告那因為我們的報告的那個蠻多的所以我們都是有逐頁看過大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的"},{"start":10796.718,"end":10819.198,"text":"大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告因為我們的那個凍結的那個提案相當的多所以每個單位什麼時候再準備我們不知道但是原則上應該是以那個總統對外公布的那個通過的那個版本為主所以我們是以那個版本開始之後呢再做那個各個不同層次上面的一個解凍的報告"},{"start":10820.279,"end":10837.08,"text":"那還有包括說如何解凍因為有些是凍結的比例是30% 70%各不相同那還有委員的要求也各不相同部長我其實辦公室有收到資訊內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了那這樣為了行政院 現在國土署就沒辦法"},{"start":10838.081,"end":10853.054,"text":"國土署就沒辦法應該是要等到總統三組通過之後我這邊其實有一個有一個籤文啦就是資整理決議解凍報告共27案提出書面報告後使得凍之案是19案提出專案報告並經同意後"},{"start":10855.135,"end":10864.541,"text":"使得動之共濟罷岸我們沒有那麼少 報告委員我們沒有那麼少這是其中一個單位所以這個是在二月的時候二月底的時候就有一個這樣解凍報告了但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的刪除對外公佈才算這個清晨的時間 因為這是你們內部的"},{"start":10877.188,"end":10893.443,"text":"所以不是每個部會都一樣我現在講的現在正播對不起不是每一個署或者司都一樣所以表示有的二月就已經寫好了嗎可能還壓在部裡嗎沒有跟委員報告因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位"},{"start":10894.984,"end":10909.632,"text":"所以我請我們的主任秘書他在綜合整理還有重規是所以我剛有問你嗎什麼時候開始寫解凍報告有沒有跟文化不一樣嗎早早就寫好了那現在才在做這樣的那確實我是有拿到你們內部的一個二月底"},{"start":10909.972,"end":10934.769,"text":"就已經送上來的一個解凍報告的一個簽程其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽程的時間就可以證明有沒有人在說謊那當然還有一種狀況是有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖但是被部長要求只能統一口徑只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字因此無法送解凍案請問有沒有在這回事"},{"start":10935.169,"end":10956.908,"text":"報告委員我先跟委員講一個數字我們到目前為止就是說總統公佈3月21號公佈的時候我們凍結58案總共85億那所以這些正確的數字就是要會計室跟我們的行政院的主計總署做確認之後我們才能夠有一致性的一個數目字跟那個大院來送到這邊來參考"},{"start":10958.109,"end":10968.662,"text":"那那個所以呢在討論的過程當中呢事實上我也在跟委員會在垂詢的時候呢我也按照委員會的講法就是說如果沒有做最後的三讀通過的話呢那個預算的數字我沒有辦法覺得表達"},{"start":10973.348,"end":11000.363,"text":"有人會動過的凍結案也不需要院會同意的這些應該都可以儘早送來我想立法院凍結預算我們是為了監督政府問責行政絕對不是像我們目前在外面聽到一堆都說是因為藍白砍預算所以不能做哪個補助不能其實因為行政院一直沒有送出這樣的一個解凍案而不是立法院不肯解凍所以內政部目前部長您剛講到的這些凍結案"},{"start":11001.964,"end":11021.16,"text":"還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的可不可以列舉一下報告委員現在我們的這個凍結的解凍案如果送到立法院來的時候是立法院的院會要能夠附委然後再交辦到每一個委員會所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題都可以送解凍案明明聽我講一下這裡面大概書面報告有24案但是專案報告一共有34案"},{"start":11030.347,"end":11046.006,"text":"那所以這個專案報告的話還需要在委員會裡面排除那按照立法院你可不可以經過程序委員會再復文才能交辦下來可以先送到立法院嗎我們才能去做相關的一個後續的一個程序上的一個部分的進行嗎"},{"start":11048.331,"end":11062.481,"text":"還有另外部長我想請教你很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制雖然剛剛講的三月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了那所以到現在都你們都還不肯交立法院審議那是為了什麼"},{"start":11064.468,"end":11080.635,"text":"我剛提到了第一個今天送出來然後那個所有的書面的部分我們就一致送出對我剛提到的是其實這些三月份都可以送出的嘛因為書面報告本來就可以送出啦因為它又沒有我們又沒有這個而且是委員會要求的書面報告啊"},{"start":11081.595,"end":11100.331,"text":"謝謝委員指教我們會來改進另外請教一下部長就是根據監察院的報告指出板橋的福州合一住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的狀況目前當然也很多的就是爆發人頭債權人進行法拍交易規避那個閉鎖期"},{"start":11102.11,"end":11115.895,"text":"那謀取暴力那當然內政部也承認這個難以防止炒作那請問部長跟署長內政部作為主管機關政府十年前推出的這個合一住宅目前的這個狀況"},{"start":11118.106,"end":11146.405,"text":"你們目前我知道已經法院有在偵辦一些了包括說有百人被我們主動移送的你們主動提出我們主動移送有35案那現在有百人被起訴嘛那最新的進度是已經開庭七案三案不認罪其中一案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪然後分別處以三年有期徒刑三年三個月有期徒刑兩年五個月的有期徒刑然後另外有三人的名下合一住宅被沒收"},{"start":11147.165,"end":11169.856,"text":"那我想請教一下部長跟署長因為其實這10年前我們可以看一下價格10年前的價格是一坪18萬現在一坪的價格是52.1萬所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子那現在呢我們看到10年後是52.1萬那尤其是很多的投資客利用這個假債權真買賣的方式"},{"start":11172.237,"end":11199.177,"text":"來去規避我們的這個閉鎖期所以變成我們現在看到的不曉得合一住宅到底是合一住宅還是樂透住宅喔那尤其是您可以看一下喔我們最近還發現喔就是說到109年我想這個可能剛剛署長有講嘛是不是國土署發現然後以這個直接移送的喔就是有55件法拍案的轉移案其中有高達71%是在權人跟拍定為同一人沒錯"},{"start":11199.81,"end":11219.117,"text":"然後而且還有是同一個地震室來處理數十件的一個案件那請問一下國土署未來要如何避免缺失再次發生跟委員報告這就是為什麼要推社會住宅而不要再做合一住宅的最主要原因因為像這一類的案件你只要透過是"},{"start":11220.316,"end":11238.715,"text":"是政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題那所以包含了現在還有一些縣市還在推我們現在其實都不希望他們再推那第二個在這過程當中我們為什麼要主動移送因為我們主動移送以後我們只要掌握確切的你跟違背當時的政策目的我們是主動把它買回"},{"start":11239.195,"end":11263.986,"text":"依原價格的八五折買回那買回以後全部當社會住宅用這樣的方式來遏制這個問題剛剛我提到有三個人目前名下的合一住宅被沒收那針對這個部分國土署有沒有跟這些違法者有 我們透過律師再跟他們談因為我就是希望他們同意直接用八五折賣否則我們就會持續那目前執行的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":11264.446,"end":11281.893,"text":"我們目前已經收回兩戶了還有一戶就對了因為未來案件還很多嘛所以都透過法律訴訟持續的來進行那對於這個你們買回來的這個八五折的這個合宜住宅未來您剛講是不是要做社會住宅也就是只租不售了"},{"start":11283.334,"end":11301.521,"text":"要不然的話這樣子就其實都會有很多的這種風險那另外就是說我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛那請問一下就是說針對這個部分未來針對社會住宅的不管是轉租轉借或者也有可能被濫用補貼的一個狀況有沒有設下什麼防範機制"},{"start":11302.901,"end":11330.374,"text":"我們如果是直接興建的部分我們是透過管理上我們每年都會做查核都會做查核確認是不是什麼樣的查核因為我們都會做住戶的拜訪在林口的部分都會做住戶的拜訪實際了解他的狀況是不是真的租這裡那在租金補貼跟包租代管的部分我們都會透過資料的勾結比對像我們租金補貼到目前已經有200多戶有200多案是假補貼的"},{"start":11331.875,"end":11352.053,"text":"真零錢但是假補貼那這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對或是電話的查詢主動去找出這些問題就是希望他們不要有腐爛申請或是說用轉租的方式那請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核一樣都有大概多久的時間我們都是"},{"start":11352.734,"end":11380.514,"text":"就是因為我們有一個專案辦公室是都會透過第一個資料的比對第二個呢會去用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡那這樣的方式的話是比較能夠防止啦是OK好那可能請部長跟署長針對這個部分希望我們能夠把這個社會住宅留給真正需要的人謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝徐益臻委員跟委員會報告一下因為我們今天有提案說明比較晚開始到現在為止都還沒有休息我們休息三分鐘好"},{"start":11665.361,"end":11677.618,"text":"好 請各位官員委員就座報告委員會 我們繼續開會並順便休息 我們中午不休息我們會把會議開到選擇結束為止來 這個下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":11703.888,"end":11716.736,"text":"誒 不對不對 不對 不對抱歉 抱歉沒關係 等一下對 看錯份子了不是 禮拜一"},{"start":11759.198,"end":11771.444,"text":"好 主席 各位委員 有請部長還有股仲副主委有名會股仲副主委有請部長好 辛苦了這個都會期的"},{"start":11772.25,"end":11795.71,"text":"原住民人口已經佔全體原住民人口的51.46%所以相關社會住宅的相關的這些規定基本上主要就是希望能夠在原住民而言就是希望能夠協助都會區的原住民而我們原住民人口"},{"start":11797.416,"end":11818.107,"text":"剛剛講了51.46%在渡會期而住宅自由利 住宅自由利沿岸之間的差距13%以上如果扣除沿鄉的住宅自由利如果光看這個渡會期的住宅自由利"},{"start":11819.555,"end":11848.313,"text":"严汉之间的差距更会高达百分之二三十以上这个是基本的一个数字所以我们看在还没有原住民族基本法也还没有住宅法之前无论是过去的省政府或是中央政府我们看81年一亿多的钱一亿五千多万新建了原住民的基隆市的"},{"start":11849.439,"end":11878.075,"text":"國宅那時候是國宅好84年新店的中正國宅這個中正國宅但是是用公務預算去買了這個國宅買了國宅然後變成一般的住宅一般的集合式住宅那時候是為了安置新店的黃河快速道路的我們的鄉親"},{"start":11881.323,"end":11907.05,"text":"然後汐止汐止花東新村這個是用公務預算去買民間興建的集合住宅直接用公務預算買民間的興建的集合式住宅這最快花了這個兩億多的一個經費剛剛那個是不止兩億然後這個91年在"},{"start":11910.064,"end":11936.287,"text":"這個是直接興建在這個興建在三峽所以在這樣的一個情形之下還沒有原住民族基本法還沒有這個住宅法的時候那原住民族基本法特別規定政府應測定原住民族的住宅政策第28條原基法也規定對都會區的安基"},{"start":11937.365,"end":11964.248,"text":"要提供這樣的一個保障跟協助所以住宅法我在105年提出修正這個第二條增加第四項目的事業主管機關英式原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要應該要興建這個專攻原住民成都之社會住宅之所以會提到教育文化語言"},{"start":11966.045,"end":11995.264,"text":"這個很重要在都會期所以我第一個提出來的其實不是這條第一個提出來的是租屋補助我了解到都會期的問題所以我提出了租屋補助是從嚴明會開始的實施三年之後內政部認為這個政策不錯應該要推到全國性才開始有全國性的"},{"start":11995.905,"end":12019.25,"text":"租屋補助這個就是我當延民會副主委的時候所提出的租屋補助所以這個跟我們的教育文化語言有非常密切的關係所以租债法在105年12月23號做了這樣的一個修正好我們看這個為了這個經費我也諮詢過當時的106年的內政部"},{"start":12025.339,"end":12054.461,"text":"同意用住宅基金來去支援這個專攻原住民的社會住宅今天人民會的報告裡面提了這些細節啊還有是這個中正國宅或是榮恩圃啊包括高雄市的都不是住宅法所稱的社會住宅所以你們雖然寫了這樣的一個人口個個複數另外啊很重要的就是"},{"start":12055.578,"end":12082.233,"text":"因為住宅法修正之後105年修正之後都沒有一個都沒有所以我質詢當時的行政院院長那時候內政部部長說在台中樹林大溪有541戶在進行中但是經過幾年之後第二年之後幾個月之後都答覆說"},{"start":12083.802,"end":12113.097,"text":"都沒有都沒有成了一個都沒有一個都沒有所以這個部分啊這個住宅法修正已經8年4個月結果專攻原住民興建的社會住宅一個都沒有主要就是經費第二個我剛舉的這些例子前面的延期法之前的這些例子"},{"start":12113.803,"end":12139.711,"text":"都是中央主導的都是不是台灣省政府主導就是中央來主導因為我們的都會期的鄉親他會跨縣市工作會跨縣市工作會跨縣市所以有了社會住宅有了莊公園住民的社會住宅之後他會跨縣市所以必須要由中央所以我才會提出這個修法"},{"start":12141.102,"end":12170.268,"text":"提出修法是我對都會區的原住民的了解提出所以應該要由中央主管機關以原住民族委員會來共同去推動因為第一個就是說畢竟住宅法的主管機關是內政部第二住宅基金也在內政部真正需要去了解原住民族的都會區"},{"start":12171.465,"end":12196.555,"text":"就是演民會所以原來的條文啊 目的事業主管機關原來的條文 現行條文啊演民會都把它推給地方政府事實上按照住宅法的規定啊縣市直轄市縣市政府是地方主管機關啊它是住宅法的地方的主管機關啊"},{"start":12198.007,"end":12223.236,"text":"所以真正目的事業主管機關其實是中央人民會就原住民族這條條文的話目的事業主管機關其實就是指中央人民會只不過當初少了中央這兩個字所以這個部分是應該把它明確化所以我提出這樣的一個修正條文 請問一下部長可以支持嗎"},{"start":12226.502,"end":12241.405,"text":"我是不是請股仲副主委跟您回應一下剛剛的幾個重要的問題好謝謝委員那我想按照住宅法的規定主管機關在中央是內政部在地方就是指甲縣市政府"},{"start":12242.113,"end":12264.984,"text":"那委員這個提案就是說 另外我要提就是說墓地事業主管機關其實不是在住宅法裡面他沒有規定是不是延民會他是各個墓地事業都可以 我舉例像桃園市在規劃的專屬原住民社會住宅現在都因為流標十幾次所以一直沒有辦法成他的新辦主管機關是 墓地事業主管是農田水利署"},{"start":12265.464,"end":12291.534,"text":"那他是要專攻原住民那個已經取消了農田水利署那個他們已經取消了但是我的意思是說目的事業主管機關應該不要只集中在原民這部分這樣我們才有更多的資源去做農田水利署他只不過是提供土地所以他真正的目的事業主管還是應該是要中央演民會因為直轄市政府他是一個地方的主管機關所以這個因為時間的關係這個我們在"},{"start":12296.305,"end":12320.747,"text":"條文審查的時候可以再去處理另外就是一個建議這個建議內政部內政部新辦社會住宅出租辦法訂了這個年限那因為現在這個新建社會住宅的那個量沒有辦法達成然後三年或是幾年就要去換就要改增加了"},{"start":12322.465,"end":12347.11,"text":"增加了人民租社會住宅的人民的搬遷的這些費用這些都是一個需要考量的部分當然希望能夠蓋得越快越好但是事實上我是沒有辦法達成所以這個一併的來給這個看能不能再加長這個租社會住宅成住的一個期限以上謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員下一位我們請翁曉琳委員質詢"},{"start":12355.226,"end":12383.523,"text":"是謝謝有請部長部長有請不好意思部長稍等一下現在我的ppt出現了在這邊我想先請教部長因為我們知道其實最近陸委會他一直在鼓勵國人要進行去大陸的登陸系統那麼可是我們看到就是去大陸的登陸系統其實光是"},{"start":12384.603,"end":12409.075,"text":"陸委會所推動的這個比例你可以看到其實登錄的人次非常的少如果說從啟動這個系統到現在為止那麼大致上我們算出的比例大概就是1.46%也就是出去100個人其實登記的大概頂多是兩個人那麼現在陸委會又請內政部這裡要配合要做有關於宗教"},{"start":12410.475,"end":12438.241,"text":"團體等等這些團體赴大陸的這個登錄那麼請問就是內政部在你對於這個登錄系統的看法如何報告委員當然這個議題不是處理住宅法那我跟委員報告一下就是不管是宗教團體或是其他的團體我們在多次的記者會裡面都有提到這是鼓勵制那跟那個陸委會所公布的附錄的這個登錄人數他是根據那個兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":12439.541,"end":12457.033,"text":"必定要一定登記的是不太一樣所以我們用鼓勵的方式那同時我們也請我們常務次長跟宗教團體還有這些人民團體做充分的溝通那目前為止願意一起來做登錄的蠻多請問下次到目前為止已經有多少的團體有登錄"},{"start":12459.314,"end":12470.718,"text":"我們這個是滾動式的我還沒有去看那現在呢我們所了解就是說它裡面呢不會出現自然人只會出現團體的名稱還有看到就說好像不僅是宗教團體包含社會團體啊這個怎麼其他職業團體人民團體等等其實依照你們現在建議都要登錄嗎"},{"start":12478.76,"end":12497.026,"text":"不是都要我已經講過鼓勵制度他可登錄可不登錄那麼因為本席其實在之前總諮詢的時候我已經也詢問過其實陸委會對於這個登錄他目前為止就算是果然在大陸那裡發生什麼緊急的狀況有意外事故其實目前陸委會還有我們"},{"start":12498.246,"end":12519.038,"text":"台湾这边看起来也没有什么救助的能力那么所以呢就这个部分来讲的话我只是想要提醒内政部就是说如果说你们现在也要启动这样的一个系统鼓励这个前往大陆的团体要登陆的话那真正如果发生什么事情的话其实内政部这边也应该要有所准备怎么样能够强化疾难救助的事情"},{"start":12519.818,"end":12530.27,"text":"好那接下來呢我想要再針對就是也是前兩天因為有台中議員有揭露這個國防部又發給有六間宮廟增掉空間存放軍火那雖然說我們的"},{"start":12535.596,"end":12558.076,"text":"这国防部部长有出来澄清说这不是存放军火是征求部队休息的地方但是呢我也必须在这边要再重申的就是在去年7月份其实当时就已经爆发出有苗栗有多间公庙有收到军方的公文要求要签订弹药预囤点的支援协定书"},{"start":12558.916,"end":12580.412,"text":"那么在那个时候其实本席已经有质询过国防部那么认为说这个事情很严重我不知道内政部作为公庙的宗教团体的主管机关你们晓不晓得一旦宗教团体被要求要存放相关的军药弹火那么对于公庙团体的影响是什么嗯"},{"start":12582.697,"end":12601.173,"text":"報告委員我想國防部已經對外多次澄清那我所了解他們所依據的是權動法那目前為止呢我們並沒有收到特別的這個宗教團體跟這個我們的宗教師提出這樣子的疑慮所以我想很多宗教團體大概就是配合權動法"},{"start":12601.834,"end":12628.187,"text":"好來我們看一下權動法的規定權動法裡面的規定其實非常的清楚只要是人民日常基本生活所必須的就是包含常常去廟裡面去拜拜還有就是涉及到有關於這個相關的這個場所設備基本上是不可以徵購跟徵用的也就是說現在宗教團體這些廟宇寺廟應該是要排除在全民防衛動員法第29條之外那麼"},{"start":12631.869,"end":12650.067,"text":"現在內政部民政司作為公廟團體主管機關應該要了解相關的法規應該要善盡保護公廟的責任可是我看起來就是部長對相關的這個法律的規定並不清楚"},{"start":12650.507,"end":12679.853,"text":"不曉得說其實宮廟不可以拿來作為存放彈藥的或者是作為這個什麼軍隊休息的地方報告委員我剛已經說過國防部已經多次澄清那有關全民防衛動員準備法的這個法條的內容當然是由國防部來說明或解釋因為他們才是主管機關但是我看到委員所提的這個29條的第5項有一個叫其他經行政院指定公告者"},{"start":12680.353,"end":12697.686,"text":"所以事實上呢這個宗教的這個場合是不是適合作為國軍休息的地方我想是有討論的空間那這一點我會請國防部再跟委員說明清楚因為據本席了解應該是還沒有在指定公告的範圍裡面那我本席要強調的是我們看一下就是其他的這個相關的國際條約裡面所要求的"},{"start":12701.969,"end":12721.883,"text":"这个战争法很重要的原则就是居民区分原则啊如果说一旦一个民用物体那么它变成是一个被敌方认为它是一个军事作战的地方它会成为军事目标那么未来就会被攻击这是很严重的事情那么内政部民政司应该要把相关的条文规定"},{"start":12723.524,"end":12750.335,"text":"报告委员我们现在并没有战争你要引用的是国际战争法我没有办法目前就跟你做回答但是战争随时随地都有可能会发生那是你说的以你们现在民进党政府的做法到目前为止在台湾人民的生活都是安和乐丽谢谢委员指教如果说这样的话那你们为什么要去动用要去做这些防卫的演习"},{"start":12751.275,"end":12776.872,"text":"事实上我觉得民进党政府就是很不负责任你们今天没有把事实的真相清楚的告诉公庙去欺骗那些公庙他们都是善心团体善心人士以为说今天能够帮助到军人军民但是事实上他们未来会成为非常危险军事攻击的目标我认为内政部你们作为这些宗教团体的主管机关"},{"start":12781.695,"end":12807.939,"text":"去糊弄他們去欺騙他們讓他們成為無辜的受害者我們從來沒有糊弄宗教團體宗教團體的人都非常善心而且願意配合國家的政策請內政部要提供就是到底現在有多少公廟已經收到來自軍方的這個公文要求要簽訂這些協定書請你們可以提供給我們香港的資料我們真的沒有這個資料我們手頭上沒有這個資料恐怕要請教國防部"},{"start":12809.969,"end":12831.137,"text":"所以由此可見就是內政部你們根本就不配做宗教團體的主管機關你們主管只會加強管制指揮你們根本沒有去好好的保護這些宗教團體我們都是按照全民防衛動員法還有民防法謝謝委員的指教好 謝謝翁曉穎委員下一位我們請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":12841.836,"end":12846.078,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這一個政部長還有這個國土署我們吳署長請問住宅法的問題一定問住宅法"},{"start":12853.686,"end":12874.24,"text":"因為我們今天在講住宅法的修法我先請教一下我剛剛有聽到國民黨的委員在提到說福州合一宅在我們新北市板橋那裡然後福州合一宅他說現在是什麼樂透宅買到就賺到然後好像一副是民進黨政府做的我請教一下吳署長這個福州合一宅是誰哪個總統哪一個內政部長哪一個署長做的"},{"start":12878.135,"end":12894.777,"text":"是在馬總統的任內馬總統任內我記得在2010年那時候他們提出了所謂的這個什麼合一住宅的政策所以我們在我們為什麼會有社會住宅就是不可以再賣了就是爆發弊案嘛我還記得那時候的雲建署的署長"},{"start":12895.998,"end":12924.531,"text":"葉士文爆發弊案收賄等等之類的後來才改成說我們這個社會住宅就是只租不賣是然後當時候的這個馬英九政府他們是這個合一宅是可以買賣的所以我是過了避鎖期但是那時候就是避鎖期我記得就是用債權的方式來躲避這個避鎖期的這個問題那是避鎖期之前有這一個假債權真買賣的這個方式那福州合一宅避鎖期"},{"start":12925.888,"end":12946.464,"text":"今年好像上半年就結束了就是它有分五年十年的那到今年是十年已經結束了已經結束了是那所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子沒錯所以我聽到說國民黨委員講說這個福州合約宅的這麼多問題而且是我們主動去抓出這一些問題然後主動移送給檢方"},{"start":12948.485,"end":12968.214,"text":"那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦"},{"start":12971.275,"end":12986.181,"text":"那到目前為止有35件在法院已經在審理當中那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子那我再問一下因為住宅法"},{"start":12986.801,"end":13012.396,"text":"我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育有未成年身心障礙者一人以上把他納進去因為我們現在的這個住宅法第四條它裡面有一項是身心障礙但是如果是家中有身心障礙的未成年人他不能去申請因為未成年但是他的父母"},{"start":13012.916,"end":13028.308,"text":"他的父母也不能去幫他申請因為他也不符合資格那所以說我才會建議說在這個修改住宅法增加對於身心障礙者家庭的這個保護那我也有看到這個衛福部他們有提供意見就這個第四條第二項"},{"start":13030.528,"end":13053.874,"text":"預有未成年身心障礙者一人以上他們的看法是說這個基於減輕預有未成年身心障礙者的家庭經濟負擔保障身心障礙者的權益本部尊重主管機關那應該是內政部所以我才說我們可以先透過行政協商的部分那如果衛福部也支持衛福部看起來是支持的我們再透過行政措施直接在後續就可以直接把它納入不一定要透過修法"},{"start":13054.554,"end":13076.341,"text":"不一定透過修法 雙方協商有身心障礙者所以如果要修法我們也支持 但是我們會先跟衛福部部長形成協商的部分先來做處理那就是說這個未來就是如果家中有這一個未成年身心障礙者他們也是符合這個規定就對了"},{"start":13079.856,"end":13103.25,"text":"剛剛這個我看聽說很多委員提到就是說社會住宅因為我們現在按照你們出租辦法規定租賃其實是三年然後這個申請續租最長不得超過六年但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年那現在遇到一些問題就是說比如說家中有這個未成年子女他可能去住的時候未成年但是經過三年六年之後"},{"start":13103.817,"end":13125.521,"text":"還要念書了學籍在那邊我們社宅可以設籍嘛對不對學籍在那邊那遇到這個小孩子念書怎麼辦因為他已經在那邊生活圈都要在那邊了那有可能在那邊念了幾年小學幾年級之後那發現說六年已經到了那是不是可以再延長那還有就是說我們還有這個65歲以上的長者65歲住進去好了然後六年之後變成70幾歲了"},{"start":13129.362,"end":13146.654,"text":"其實幾歲你要再叫他再去找這個房子其實也是有點困難我們講社會住宅這部分的話是不是就是我們所提到的比如說有未成年子女學籍的問題還有老人家居住的一些問題這邊是不是可以做彈性做處理報告就是說其實"},{"start":13147.435,"end":13173.545,"text":"大概最大的困難是因為現在社宅的這個總量是不夠的對我知道我今天如果再去延長的話他這個社宅的循環使用使用率就會降低了我知道困難點在這邊啦那有沒有其他的權宜措施所以才會說像有一些是當然會透過其他包租代管跟租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續就他可能就不一定在這裡但是在周遭嘛那第二個就是說我們現在剛好也是六年一起的這剛好"},{"start":13174.645,"end":13203.951,"text":"各地的社宅第一波的社宅都已經輪完一輪了那其實有很多使用上的問題或者是剛剛所提到的有學籍的問題或者是他必須要轉換住房的問題我們現在都在收整這些意見那統一來做一個檢討看看我們後面再對於社宅的這個出租的辦法要不要再重新做一些修正我想這都值得檢討但是要直接去拉長租期恐怕會在使用上使用的效率上我也知道因為現在社宅數量還不夠那如果說久住的話"},{"start":13204.471,"end":13232.69,"text":"也會變成說有這個需要的人他可能就住不進去所以我才講說因為現在內政部有這個300億的中央擴大租金補貼的專案那這個專案裡面呢特別有針對說比如說這個你們有鼓勵婚育還有加強關懷弱勢對於符合租金的金額你們是2000到8000還可以再加碼比如說他這個育有未成年子女一個人的話再加碼1.4倍然後諸如此類以此類推然後經濟弱勢1.4倍社會弱勢1.2倍"},{"start":13234.591,"end":13262.235,"text":"就是會增加啦那我想說如果是這樣子的話能不能在租金補貼這方面這倍數可以再多一點讓他們就是說有機會啦就是說如果已經在這邊住很久尤其老人家你70幾歲你要他搬走那他可能真的你要叫他去租房子可能也有一些困難的話是不是在這一個擴大租金補貼的這個倍數上面能夠再佐以調整增加讓他們如果萬一不得已必須搬離的話比較容易在附近找到房子"},{"start":13262.335,"end":13288.333,"text":"了解 這我們會在整體來做一些討論來調配啦因為這個部分當然也會考慮到這個我們的這個裁員的問題啦就是撥補的問題那第二個就是說要以哪些族群我想這都還有要再討論的空間但是這個方向我認為你們應該要去做處理好不好好那我最後一個問題我請教這個那部長跟署長請問應該是這個租屋是跟地震室有關係的對好來好謝謝這個齁"},{"start":13292.466,"end":13293.2,"text":"這個.."},{"start":13293.869,"end":13321.609,"text":"這個最近有一個新聞蠻紅的就是在高雄有一個通口飯店租屋糾紛然後後來因為他是房東他就說他不知道說這一個他們租給他的比這個附近的這個租屋的這個平均的租金還要便宜這是他的說法啦但是我們也只要說就是說在租房子的時候租金到底怎麼去什麼是一個合理的價格那你們這邊有一個合理價格的一個評判的一個標準嗎"},{"start":13323.719,"end":13352.466,"text":"公委員報告一下大概會有幾個管道第一個部分就是有關於住宅類的部分因為我們現在有租金補貼所以我們現在每半年都有公佈租金的行情讓民眾來做一個知道那這個案子應該是商用的部分那一般店鋪或商用的部分如果透過仲介來做一個媒合的話那這個都要經過實價登錄然後去做一個查詢跟一個可以提供公開查詢所以如果在商用的部分也可以透過實價登錄的一個資料來做一個查詢好"},{"start":13354.407,"end":13373.084,"text":"那如果說房客跟房東之間出現了租金的問題你們現在都是用消保法來做處理就對了這個部分的話因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為那如果一般商用的或店鋪用的話他可以循鄉鎮市調節委員會的一個途徑來做處理"},{"start":13376.167,"end":13399.523,"text":"因為在我們這個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例裡面我看到說這個第六條第六條你們有講到說租賃住宅的租金由出租人跟成租人約定不適用土地法第97條的規定這是第六條的規定但是第一條呢它其實開宗明就講得很清楚了這個維護人民居住權健全租賃住宅市場等等之類的那我在想"},{"start":13400.103,"end":13423.26,"text":"就是說如果有關於這一個租金這方面的話應該不是說放任如果按照第六條來看好像是放任就是說你就是房東跟房客在自由市場裡面你們去討論這個租金但是呢這個我們如果要保障這一個這個租客的話那其實在很多的這個先進國家他們都有對這個租金做一些立法上面的一個"},{"start":13424.04,"end":13450.613,"text":"介入不是完全任由這個市場機制來做決定的啦那我想說有關於這一個第六條這部分的話那是不是我們也可以來做一些修正比如說我們這一個你這個如果要房東要去調漲這一個房租的話那是不是呢就原來這個租金的這個水準然後參考周邊的這個住宅租金的這個水準還有物價上漲率啊還有出租人重大修繕所支出的費用然後就"},{"start":13451.213,"end":13478.403,"text":"房租上漲的要件頻率幅度加以限制那作為管制房租的一個手段有關於住宅出令的部分的話我們就持續滾動檢討那個委員剛才提的建議其實我們也可以其實也可以來來評估來檢討看看對啊我的意思是說不是說那就第一個交由市場來決定那第二個就是說那有什麼問題就是這個消保法或是說到什麼鄉鎮調解會去做處理其實我們的這一個"},{"start":13480.084,"end":13505.286,"text":"租賃住宅市場的管理條例第六條其實已經有說得很清楚了這個條例對於住宅類的部分其實對於租屋服都有一些相關的保障時間有限就先到這裡謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員下一位請黃建豪委員黃建豪委員不在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在下一位我們請吳佩儀委員質詢"},{"start":13512.967,"end":13516.389,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請部長及署長劉部長 吳署長有請部長好 署長好今天我們討論的是住宅法的修法詢答那我自己也有一個提案版本是關於第22條的修法但是首先我想整體來說我們關注的是社會住宅它如何可以繼續的來去幫助我們的居住正義那過去因為我在台北市也擔任地方的市議員"},{"start":13543.022,"end":13569.912,"text":"這麼多年的期間我們台北市持續在興建社會住宅那現在當然也遇到了找地的問題那我想整體來說社會住宅有三點是最重要第一個是量就是我們必須要持續興建或者是找包租代管要多的房源持續增加第二個就是租金要讓民眾是可以達到可負擔的租金第三個就是他的對象我們目前法定四成必須要有弱勢來居住但是弱勢的對象也包含很多個項目"},{"start":13570.632,"end":13598.423,"text":"哪些人应该要优先居住这个都是这几年在实务上在执行的时候我们会遇到的挑战那现在呢我看最新的统计去年我们全国的社会住宅新建加包住代管已经达到20万户的目标那下一个目标就是我们百万租屋家庭支持计划我们希望新建要持续达到25万户包住代管也要到25万户另外有50万户这其实已经超过了就是我们租金补贴的数量"},{"start":13598.883,"end":13619,"text":"这个要持续的来进行那也非常感谢内政部因为在我的选区台北市中正万华区我们中央的万华安居这个第一个在当时动土的时候我也有我上次是市议员也有参加非常的期待今年就有机会要开始的落成要招租了那另外也有零销好市已经动土了"},{"start":13619.48,"end":13627.647,"text":"好再來是新河安居也就是我們國防部這個南機場9號基地已經核定在規劃當中所以我們是非常的支持社會住宅持續來興建那我提的這個版本22條的修改呢他就是關於我們的地價稅跟房屋稅按照現行法規的規定是地方政府是可以適當的來減免地價房屋稅的只是說他有一個5年要一次檢討"},{"start":13646.002,"end":13663.013,"text":"為什麼我認為這個很重要因為過去在台北市曾經發生當地方政府一度認為說涉宅的租金要去考量自償率甚至自償率要放回優先的時候曾經一度把涉宅租金的定價公式納入了地價稅跟房屋稅也就是說當他地價稅跟房屋稅加入分母的時候你分母變大分子也要變大結果什麼東西變大了租金就提高了"},{"start":13670.217,"end":13675.159,"text":"所以我們一直非常的重視地價稅房租稅其實可以減免所以當時呢這個地方的市議會要求市政府要來檢討這個公事那後來確實也把地價稅房屋稅拿掉了那我看了一下基隆市政府其實有訂定一個自治條例就直接明訂了房屋地價稅在涉宅的租金當中就其實不用記錄那我現在想要請教一下因為我們按照現行法規這個五年一次檢討"},{"start":13696.209,"end":13717.536,"text":"其實馬上也要到期了就116年的1月就一年多的時間內政部這裡目前的態度是我們會來向行政院報請就延長這個減免的時限嗎是跟我們報告因為其實房屋稅跟地價稅是地方稅那所以我們都通常就是我們現在做法就是因為我們基本上要尊重地方"},{"start":13718.016,"end":13746.962,"text":"但是要提早告知他所以我們原長都會提早先跟院報就希望延長那我們就會跟地方這邊來溝通那當然如果地方已經主動來做這樣的一個事情我想是比較好那另外一個是不是看是 所以我們已經報請行政院沒有 因為我們就會整體一起報所以我們確定是會朝向這個檢院延長的這個方向去報好 那我覺得這非常重要也要提早跟地方政府來溝通因為這個民眾最擔心的就是社宅好不容易蓋好了"},{"start":13747.222,"end":13768.866,"text":"但是萬一租金實在太高反而是超出了可負擔那就失去了我們一開始興建社宅要去達到居住正義的這個美意這一點我覺得非常的重要那再來就是要關切的是除了租金以外我們能不能去照顧到弱勢者這個我也要感謝內政部因為在台北市我們皆有的聚集地其實在我的選區就是萬華蒙甲公園龍山寺前面這個公園廣場"},{"start":13773.467,"end":13791.77,"text":"那我們今年終於要開始進行改建那也就牽涉到了我們街友要大量的來協助安置的問題所以非常感謝內政部協助我們來去協調台北市政府新北市政府和基隆桃園市政府我們要來提早的進行安置而安置的房源很重要一個就是包租代管的設宅"},{"start":13792.776,"end":13822.092,"text":"它是过去都是要新建一个统一的安置场所现在有这个化整纹理的方式但是我们也发现到在包租代管的这个租屋市场之上弱势户要来承租其实常常房东可能会有一些担心跟考量所以这次我非常感谢因为内政部跟台北市社会局都有协助我们来去辅导房东告诉他们说这我们后续都社工会持续的来去仿施照顾让他们免去这些担忧我们针对就是弱势户来协助他们在包租代管的市场里面"},{"start":13822.532,"end":13829.581,"text":"能夠去比較能夠去找到住房就是輔導或者獎勵房東的部分我們是不是有相關措施"},{"start":13830.343,"end":13855.141,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們現在來講的話針對這個弱勢當然其實最主要是要提高房東的意願那房東的意願來講其實以目前我們跟台北市政府的合作經驗來說是直接像委員所講的有設公司那有一些我們專業的服務人員去告知房東我們可以提供什麼樣的協助讓房東在這方面比較不用擔憂其實他們"},{"start":13856.002,"end":13880.313,"text":"倒不會比較計較在這個稅負方面的他們比較擔心的是這進來以後會不會以後變成我的負擔那所以這一點我們在目前合作是跟衛福部的合作裡面大概這樣的方式是比較恰當的也會讓房東房客都比較安心所以就這一點來講那至於對那另外一個就是說我們是透過公益團體的話公益團體再來轉租那其實我們是會給公益團體"},{"start":13884.242,"end":13901.165,"text":"這樣他會有再另外補助給他那請他來協助那這樣的話其實他能夠也就近直接照顧他那這樣的話讓房東房客兩端都是比較安全這個部分我知道現在這個內政部跟衛福部確實有這個弱勢房客儲遇的協助機制"},{"start":13902.006,"end":13923.123,"text":"但是我的提案是23條住宅法希望可以修法我覺得還是要入法比較是可長可久的一個保障但是我想我們先就現階段你們在執行上面的這個遇到的這個狀況我們可以先來討論那我希望後續我們能夠來繼續持續來去評估修法的方向好謝謝好謝謝吳佩儀委員下一位我們請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":13936.192,"end":13957.866,"text":"謝謝趙偉有請部長劉部長有請部長伍安辛苦了那個最近要面對很多在我聽起來很不專業的質詢我想我今天是想要為那個青年特別是學生請命那我是有看你們的今天的報告那在修法上的"},{"start":13958.326,"end":13983.103,"text":"那看起來好像內政部覺得不需要把青年的部分放在裡頭因為有各種的部分那我今天是想說不管修法的不管這次修法你們要不要納入青年那有些事情其實是不用修法現在就可以做的那希望就是內政部可以去研議那第一個其實我們的住宅法第一條講的全體國民那當然這包含學生"},{"start":13983.743,"end":14000.415,"text":"那只是學生他的問題就是他不是可能不是經濟社會的弱勢但他有可能因為離鄉就學那本身還沒有穩定的收入那變成在外的一個結構性的弱勢譬如說他如果在台北市跟在花蓮"},{"start":14001.115,"end":14025.911,"text":"那租金各方面面对到的条件都不一样所以我说他可能是阶段性的结构上的弱势那这边其实监察院的报告可以跟让部长知道一下他也表达说其实目前大概有14%的学生想住宿舍就完全住不到那而且呢这个14%是全国来看如果看都会的话更严重"},{"start":14027.014,"end":14049.902,"text":"根據教育部給我的資料供給率倒數15名的學校有8所學校在雙北我想這個部分部長應該很了解這個是都會特有的議題所以監察院講的14%想住應該可以住的住不到的它其實不成比例的是分佈在雙北有8所學校部分"},{"start":14050.902,"end":14072.941,"text":"當然就是在你們今天的報告中說其實如果是自己住在外面的話你們有租金補貼可是我們以雙倍為例大家都知道雙倍的租金越來越高平均一個學生可能每個月要花7000到1萬次根據現在租金補貼單身倍率1.2每個月其實只能申請到3600"},{"start":14074.222,"end":14089.792,"text":"甚至還有一些不肖房東因為有這個補助他還漲了房租所以就一個在雙北的學生每個月即使得到你們的補助還是要負擔從三千五到一萬不等看他學校的黃金位置"},{"start":14090.592,"end":14115.667,"text":"當然你們說他如果是中低收入或等等可以申請社宅可是我們剛講的社宅在社救法目前還是以家庭為單位可能他家裡基本上還沒有到中低收入或者是弱勢生長等但他本人在經濟上方面可能就需要打工那我自己曾經在私立大學兼課就知道學生打工的情況非常的嚴重"},{"start":14116.347,"end":14143.653,"text":"因為在台北市的生活費很高所以我今天是希望這是一個機會我們來做雖然修法上你們認為本期的版本的青年不用納入我今天是想訴求就是說部長可以做一些還不需要修法就做的第一個內政部應該跟教育部共同了解住宿供給率跟品質主動輔導學校來申請相關的計劃甚至提高補助那第二個"},{"start":14145.033,"end":14164.15,"text":"租屋的部分也可以擴大包租代管的民間住宅鼓勵他轉租給學生那納入就是學生相關的經驗在制定相關的政策第三個既有的社宅如果是在雙北地區或者是某些地方那我知道有一定的弱勢比例那在可能的範圍內因為每個區情況不同"},{"start":14166.172,"end":14182.652,"text":"是不是有可能能够专案跟学校合作转租给学生那我知道这些都不容易那今天教育部有高教师赖专委在这那教育部这边我也在push他们那他们基本上也承诺往你们这个方向移动"},{"start":14183.252,"end":14200.914,"text":"可是跨部會的合作難度很高我很高興在你們今天的結論中有講到涉及學生原住民等社會福利事項本部會積極與教育部等部會溝通所以部長是不是可以承諾我近期之內那就"},{"start":14201.334,"end":14220.486,"text":"你們的相關的單位就跟教育部溝通那我非常的願意擔任兩部會之間的橋樑來解決這個特別是雙北那高校裡面學生租不到房子被迫要打工然後影響學就說就學權益的這個這個階段性的結構上的弱勢是"},{"start":14221.947,"end":14235.777,"text":"謝謝范委員對於大專院校學生尤其是北漂的這些學生的一個支持那您所提到包括宿舍或是租屋或社宅的部分其實我們只要跟教育部其實都常常在有溝通那目前為止我們"},{"start":14236.998,"end":14261.417,"text":"最有可能去處理的是租屋的部分就是擴大包租代管的民間社宅但是民間社宅的房源尤其是在比較熱門的幾個大專院校的附近房源不容易找到如果房源很容易找到的話我們其實在用包租代管的方式來解決轉租學生的問題會最快也不需要修法因為社宅的興建就有一定程度的供期"},{"start":14261.837,"end":14261.957,"text":"好,可以"},{"start":14278.275,"end":14292.8,"text":"感謝啦因為我們其實在租金補貼的部分當時就是也到考慮到很多學生他其實說穿的都是住在違法頂價或地下室所以我們後來把租金補貼把這些都涵蓋進來那所以基本上"},{"start":14293.567,"end":14314.486,"text":"可以補助的範圍已經涵蓋到在學區內幾乎所有可能的條件大概都有了雙北如同我剛講的他還是要自負額還是蠻高的對對對所以就這個部分來講因為整個的結構如果要去調租金補貼的話是一個結構的問題那至於就是年輕人的部分那這個我們可以再來做一個檢討"},{"start":14315.347,"end":14336.2,"text":"因為對於可能有學生要包含年輕人甚至婚姻家庭他們也有類似的因為他們算在一般戶他們不算在弱勢戶那所以這一般戶的部分我們是不是有另外要去講我想這個我們都有跟行政院再提出一些建議那這個再給我們一些時間我們再跟院這邊的溝通看這部分可不可以再做另外的處理"},{"start":14336.24,"end":14356.211,"text":"那謝謝剛剛部長說二租的部分可能性比較高那其他的部分就是謝謝署長的回應那是不是能夠在譬如說三個月內給我一個初步的報告呢那我也會追蹤一下促成你們跟教育部的積極合作好不好沒有問題好那謝謝部長辛苦了好謝謝范營委員的諮詢下一位我們請王國威委員諮詢"},{"start":14369.79,"end":14374.311,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們劉部長劉部長有請部長今天大家主要討論聚焦在住宅法那分黨派的委員不管是放寬入住的資格提高經濟弱勢的比例或者提高這個房租的扣除額基本上都"},{"start":14393.616,"end":14420.536,"text":"圍繞在就是特別是在社宅的部分或者你在整個的租金補貼可不可以擴大加惠更多的需要房子的民眾但是我必須講我們這個社宅的推動從蔡政府時代到現在的賴政府時代都有喊出比如蔡政府時代喊出了是8年20萬戶而賴政府時代喊出來是百萬戶的這個租屋家庭的支持計劃"},{"start":14422.177,"end":14443.479,"text":"那这里面呢大家都知道我们的社宅的进度极为缓慢所以也都用了这个包租贷款或者住金补贴的方式呢去做替代但是即使如此即使如此我们真正的社宅的目标其实已经不但是牛部化而且是龟部化了"},{"start":14444.019,"end":14461.037,"text":"因为如果按照蔡政府时代的8年20万户里面包含新建12万户的社会住宅然后在赖政府是预计呢要直接的新建社会住宅也有25万户所以加起来呢是37万户37万户"},{"start":14462.699,"end":14488.535,"text":"好可是根据我们内政部自己不动产资讯平台现在所显示的资料全国的社会住宅完工户数当然还有一些规划的或者在新建中完工户数其实只有三万户只有三万户也就是说不管是之前前朝蔡英文政府或者现在的赖政府你们的"},{"start":14489.315,"end":14516.212,"text":"直接興建社宅的目標37萬戶裡面真正完工可以提供給民眾來入住的只有3萬戶所以真的我覺得大社宅大謊言所以我們如何去加強加速我們社宅的興建是非常非常重要的另外呢我們講到就是租金補貼的部分來"},{"start":14517.933,"end":14538.45,"text":"我們其實我們政府當然希望減少大家民眾的租金的負擔提出了這個房屋租金補貼計畫可是可以看到在都會區七大都會區裡面的租金的漲幅事實上遠遠高於我們的平均薪資的漲幅"},{"start":14539.531,"end":14562.922,"text":"所以如果你看台北市可能还比较顿化可是新北桃园新竹都在10%以上如果你看新竹县它的涨幅是两成以上所以也就是说民众的薪资它的涨幅是没有办法跟上真正都会区的房租的涨幅"},{"start":14563.582,"end":14579.127,"text":"好我在这边呢我要提醒内政部就是中研院经研所经研所在去年底他发布了一个就是台湾消费者预期与政策反应调查很重要他是跟政策相关的"},{"start":14580.734,"end":14601.848,"text":"的結果是說受訪房東有24.3%近三年有漲租金的已經漲租金或者準備漲租金所以也就是說在房東裡面將近有四分之一他們都是準備要漲房租的那這個計劃時間暫停一下你們要討論的話應該是事後"},{"start":14609.793,"end":14612.935,"text":"我知道我現在因為你們這樣你們就沒辦法聽我講我要跟那個跟部長還有我們署長說這個中研院調查非常特殊"},{"start":14623.826,"end":14646.445,"text":"我们的租金补贴计划也就是政府的租金补贴计划放进去做调查他特别放进去做调查他来了解一下我们的政策跟实际会不会影响房东要不要涨租金跟实际房租有没有调涨有没有关联性"},{"start":14647.706,"end":14672.527,"text":"他特别把这个政策放进去做调查而最后出来的结果是这个房东方面我刚刚讲有24.3%他会这三年他会调涨租金其中竟然有19.7的受访者说为什么他要涨租金呢因为他认为政府有补助房租"},{"start":14673.567,"end":14687.807,"text":"政府有補助房租所以我覺得今天會出現一個困境那個困境是什麼呢政府去補助房租是因為要減輕我們民眾租房子的負擔對不對這應該是一個得證"},{"start":14690.47,"end":14714.917,"text":"可是没有想到到了市场竟然变成房东认为说他一定先问你你有没有接受政府的补助啊他说我可以你会不会去申请啊我会去申请他因此反而把这个部分调涨租金了他反而反映在我刚才讲市场所呈现的租金反而调涨"},{"start":14716.216,"end":14721.297,"text":"租金反而調漲那可能這邊大概19.7%20%好了他可能這20%還帶動了其他我隔壁漲那我們房東一樣賣房子租房都一定是這樣嘛我一定會調查一下我旁邊的房子賣多少錢租多少錢"},{"start":14735.041,"end":14751.622,"text":"可能因为这个理由反而带动了租金上涨也就是说我原来是得振结果没想到他竟然成为推升租金上涨的一个原因了所以我觉得这部分要特别注意到"},{"start":14752.903,"end":14771.305,"text":"因为我想中研院经验所他们也不是阿里布达的什么单位而且他特别去把这个项目把它放进调查他也希望知道我们的政府政策有没有反而到了市场反而变成一个反效果"},{"start":14772.006,"end":14799.147,"text":"所以我覺得這點是我們可能要特別去理解特別注意的我沒有說我們提供房屋租金不好我們也希望能夠去解決民眾的負擔但是如果它反而變成一些我也不能說是貪心的房東啦很多這個房東他都會他能收多他就要盡量收多嘛居州反而他認為說我要租 張旗開來跟我租房子張旗開"},{"start":14800.268,"end":14814.154,"text":"你有沒有符合規定那你要不要去生意反正那些錢是政府幫你出的嘛我就把租金提高一些說反正不是你付的所以我覺得要特別小心這樣的效應好不好"},{"start":14816.135,"end":14834.589,"text":"好所以我才講說請你們能夠仔細聽一下我不是在講我是說希望你們回去針對中研院經濟所他們的這個調查政策反映到市場實際的租金的影響能夠特別去了解一下好不好好謝謝"},{"start":14837.462,"end":14848.675,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員的諮詢下一位我們請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在下一位我們請林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在我們請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員不在下一位我們請張祺凱委員諮詢"},{"start":14869.107,"end":14877.909,"text":"來 寶丁 我們繼續 長時間悠閒 我們繼續再把陸沛教練來 部長有請喔到三天了 欸 寶丁你請來 部長來來 你要先站上去嗎 嘿 好喔嘿 還可以 好好好 來 寶丁好 嘿好 來 我們繼續啦 繼續長齁我們繼續幫這個陸沛還有他的子女 解決問題喔寶丁 你長..."},{"start":14893.939,"end":14922.604,"text":"因為那個陸委會也承認說移民署把這個有些那個陸配的小孩是沒有在大陸涉及的他寄的通知單要他回大陸去除籍那你昨天也道歉了嘛那現在我們要來補破網要幫他們解決問題啦現在到底要怎麼解決這個問題不是跟他道歉而已他知道有三件事要做除了道歉是不是應該補一個函去跟他們講說我們之前寄錯了是不是必要的話人家如果已經回大陸去那應該國賠啊"},{"start":14923.993,"end":14944.234,"text":"是不是最初開始來做第一行 你知道逃走嗎是不是應該先去一個行跟他們講說我們之前記錯了張委員我昨天也有跟您解釋過我用單一的案例來解釋那我有特別提到說這些人因為他是在大陸出生那在大陸出生的時候他當時有沒有其他的證件是我們不知道的"},{"start":14944.895,"end":14967.489,"text":"那他自己本人可能不知道我昨天還是前幾天我提到的部分就是說那個可能是他的父母代為申請他的證件所以我們移民署在通發出去的時候也是要求他們要就這方面要提出他們的說法那這個說法我昨天也特別到移民署去聽他們的簡報那簡報的時候從北中南一共有六個我們的服務站"},{"start":14973.112,"end":14996.713,"text":"第一個現在進縣的電話少很多那對於我們提出6加2這樣的太陽的話呢大部分都了解還有人用email的方式或是打電話過來問那我們都一一跟他解釋清楚那再來就是委員有提到說那這樣子是不是有一些來台灣比較久的這個已經取得台灣的身份證的這些中配或者是陸配要再跟他們說明清楚"},{"start":14997.854,"end":15024.598,"text":"對但是我們可能會透過就是所謂的這個這個新住民的這個協會的方式啊來做說明也就是說但是沒有辦法一個一個但是我們去他們的比較長生活的區域譬如說您剛有提到可能您昨天提的案例呢是在北三都我不說明特別什麼地方我大概知道是哪一個地方那北三都有比較多中配居住的地方的話呢我們移民署"},{"start":15024.998,"end":15048.627,"text":"或者是其他的這個中配的這個這個福利的這個權益的團體會去跟他們說明清楚這個6加3的樣態是怎麼一回事主動去說明這個是對的而且根本要解決問題其實是我昨天提的就修法把這個93年3月1號之前的就全部用拒絕來這個但是目前這個沒關係我知道我也問過陸委會目前為止並沒有修法的需要"},{"start":15050.322,"end":15068.477,"text":"有需要啊 民眾的懲請就這樣我問過入委 93年以前並沒有修法的需要你現在甩鍋要陸配去回去大陸拿這個我們沒有甩鍋 應該是說我們要把它清除比較清楚一點這樣子那你21年前沒做的啊所以你在法律上應該就是"},{"start":15069.858,"end":15089.37,"text":"政府存在目的就是服務人民嘛你不要製造成擾民啊對不對你要服務人民這樣子的不便我們已經跟委員解釋過就是希望能夠到他們比較多聚集的地方包括他是年老的媽媽或者是比較年輕或者行動不方便的人去跟他說清楚是怎麼一回事"},{"start":15089.91,"end":15115.53,"text":"那如果真的是在法律上需要或者我們的樣態需要再做修正的話我們可以根據這些資料來做修正但是我昨天已經跟您報告過從21號開始申請到現在我們其實已經累積好幾百份甚至詢問的電話超過一千多所以這樣的部分呢大致上都能夠合乎我們的了解的程度但是我們這些匯集的資料如果還有不方便的地方的話我們還可以再檢討"},{"start":15116.551,"end":15134.282,"text":"但是這個檢討的部分並沒有涉及陸委會他們的修法寶丁你現在提的方法就是六類排除嘛那我一直在跟你講這六類排除沒辦法滿足絕大部分人的困難所以我們民眾黨會提出一個修法就用時間點來劃分只要民國93年3月1號之前的全部用拒絕來把它處理第二個"},{"start":15140.624,"end":15158.217,"text":"之後的就是授權由陸委會跟內政部來定說你到底要怎麼樣把六大類再擴大這沒關係我們會提出修法那現在我提的是另外一個我也肯定你說我們說你要去辦說明會嘛你現在願意去辦這是很好的可是我剛剛點的那個點是說你舉了一個例子"},{"start":15159.225,"end":15181.549,"text":"所以有人是媽媽特別又去幫他辦了這個大陸的這個戶籍嘛這只是一個個案啊現在是很多人根本就是出生的時候就沒有辦一直到現在都沒辦結果你們的移民署變成擾民了你應該是先清清楚啊先查過嘛對不對政府你自己要先查過說我確實在大陸是沒有有戶籍的你才叫我去把它拿掉嘛"},{"start":15181.789,"end":15210.418,"text":"就不是啊你前面把他放出去把他丟出去造成人家的困擾啊我們是通知出去我們是通知出去請他來跟政府機關說明清楚就這樣而已將心比心啊我知道我都了解你是二代你明明就在大陸就沒有戶籍啊我知道我也有實在你收到這張你收到這一張這是政府造成人家的困擾欸是說你昨天道歉嘛對不對你昨天講的就是不變的部分嘛不變的部分並不是表示要違法嘛"},{"start":15211.581,"end":15221.986,"text":"不變也要合法這件事情就是你造成了人民的不變嘛 而且是一個勞務啦因為不變所造成的困擾但是並不是表示我們違法啊我們還是合法啊他就沒有東西 你怎麼可以寄給人家不是 所以他要到我們移民署來拒絕嘛他就沒有 為什麼要去拒絕"},{"start":15238.895,"end":15253.776,"text":"欸保定我本來就沒有大陸的戶籍你突然寄了個通知我還要因為你自己沒有親過一次然後因為你道歉完之後你補破網我跟他講說你不用回大陸去你現在叫人家去拒絕喔"},{"start":15254.497,"end":15269.369,"text":"報告我們有清過一次但是這是電子檔我們希望除了電子檔以外包括目前還有一個團體叫做中華民國大陸災包救濟總會他所提供一些比較舊的資料那我們也在清查當中"},{"start":15272.691,"end":15301.388,"text":"那我剛剛講過對於不變所造成的困擾我們確實需要改進所以我昨天也趕快請我們移民署看有沒有什麼改進的方案讓大家能夠知道說這件事是為了保障他在台灣合法的公民的一個權益這是我們應該做的你道歉只道歉了一半耶這件事情一開始就是你要寄出去之前你就跟移民署跟陸委會你要先簽過說你要寄出去這個人到底有沒有大陸的戶籍嘛"},{"start":15302.088,"end":15316.157,"text":"你沒有做這個事情所以你才需要道歉啊啊現在已經出去了你要趕快記所以我說你一個禮拜內你要清清楚楚要嘛一通電話要嘛你要補記一個喊去跟他講說欸 抱歉我打擾你了我弄錯了是不是我剛剛說將心比心啊如果是你的話"},{"start":15319.957,"end":15334.186,"text":"啊你明明就沒有大陸戶籍啊你接到沒有我說如果是你或者是我被你這樣接到一個搞不好我剛講第一個那你要趕快去補正啊就說我之前是我政府的叔父啊第二可能更嚴重欸你4月2號就寄出去啊有些人已經回到大陸去啊這要不要國賠"},{"start":15342.319,"end":15353.364,"text":"要國賠嗎我一年沒貸沒錢你叫我去大陸把戶籍移除掉我從來都沒有啊我回大陸又碰了一批紙灰又回來我可以要求國賠嗎報告委員如果有這個個案的話麻煩請給我們來參考好嗎"},{"start":15358.146,"end":15371.771,"text":"如果有這樣的個案是可以要求國賠嗎不是 請給我們來參考一下我們看如何來補救或是補正 好嗎跟國賠不一定完全關係我昨天已經跟您說過了不變 並不是表示一定要違法不變 但是也要合法所以部長 第一個 你道歉然後你說要不要國賠這個有個案你進行檢討現在最大的問題還是在第二部分是不是我們國賠請求失效的部分是需要法律來認證不是我們兩個說了就算補定 補定沒有沒有 你第二部分還是沒有 第二部分"},{"start":15387.762,"end":15412.177,"text":"我剛剛一直在強調的 你明明應該是你清查過說我沒有大陸戶籍有的話你才叫我去出籍嘛 對不對你在造成人民這個困擾 你現在都不用去 你說道歉之外你不用去通知對方一下嗎這是無妄之災 而且是政府造成的擾民啊 不是有沒有 這是不是造成擾民啊 不然你到底在道歉什麼啦我說第二項你到底做不做"},{"start":15413.254,"end":15417.08,"text":"如果一直問也就是說這個是要做的啊他們說一個禮拜內要去通知啊他們不給我們討論"},{"start":15422.645,"end":15446.719,"text":"所以你的意思是你不去補給這個函去更正嗎報告委我已經跟你回覆過了如果造成不便的地方那我們在服務上面我們會做修正但是無論他是用什麼樣的角度來看他就是要合法我們是為了保障他在中華民國這個自由地區裡面的合法的公民的權益否定他合法啊他合乎你規定你叫他去除籍除大陸籍愛不服啊"},{"start":15447.379,"end":15454.246,"text":"除極跟拒絕中間就是有一個緩衝的角度你不要把拒絕跟除極兩件事情合在一起 你要彎轉多港啦保定 你一直在講合法他就沒有 你叫人家去通知人家 可能已經跑回去大陸了或者是現在受到這個困擾 你是不是應該去補正 要更正你不用更正嗎 要不要更正沒有 你給我一句話 你意思是不更正啊"},{"start":15473.715,"end":15484.67,"text":"跟委員解釋過了無論怎麼樣有造成不方便的地方需要去說明我們會去說明但是無論怎麼樣我們是要保障它在台灣是合法那更何況以前的這些以前的這些資產我們有部分"},{"start":15489.296,"end":15502.23,"text":"報告委員行政程序上他這樣子的不管是戶籍也好或者是什麼樣子的證件他理論上都是要到海基會有公證認證之後我們才能確定把它算成是真正的公文書這樣的過程當中確實是不方便"},{"start":15505.273,"end":15525.021,"text":"但是我們因為不方便我們也提出這樣子最後的服務方式就是說去跟新住民的權益委員會一起合作再跟他們說明清楚那這一點我們能夠做的盡量做可是我還是跟委員講第一個在兩岸人民關係條例的一個規範之下我們是希望他已經朝著合法合規的方式來處理柏定你造成你找民然後錯誤污辱造成人民的困擾"},{"start":15534.514,"end":15563.542,"text":"對啊 所以你現在只是說你我是說我要求是說你再補一個函去跟人家道歉說你沒有這個問題對不對你說你要另外一個方式喔用說明會的方式喔那天早上對方要來聽你那天人家有空可以去聽你說明嗎你自己的一個函造成人家的困擾政府不就是要服務人民嗎你們去辦演講還好這不是老闆老闆被你們被你們激到一個不死不蕩的一個通知函"},{"start":15565.077,"end":15566.239,"text":"你們不用更正喔這怎麼會按照規定嘿嘿"},{"start":15584.2,"end":15610.877,"text":"好 OK 那我們沒關係 我昨天問過一次了今天問了 那今天有一些進度嘛 對不對不只是道歉 你也做了一部分抓去公開說明嘛那現在可能卡住了一個很重要的點連陸委會主委都認為說應該去補正這個 要去更正了你現在不記 沒關係 我們進一步再來討論今天是第二集嘛 對 這是連續劇我們幫陸配跟幫這些子女我們一定要幫他爭取到該有的權利嘛而且是政府自己堵指自己施指大烏龍當然你要去補正 沒關係 我們第三集我們再繼續"},{"start":15615.58,"end":15626.606,"text":"謝謝張綺凱委員請相關的機關因為這個事情也確實也蠻嚴重的就是會後積極溝通啦這樣我們才不用花掉比較多會議的時間讓全民去看看到底還會有討論的機會謝謝張綺凱委員下一位我們請葉延芝委員葉延芝也不在下一位我們請林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在"},{"start":15639.025,"end":15661.552,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢我們尋答到此結束丁雪忠委員高金素美委員邱振軍委員黃建斌委員所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面質詢和未及答不負分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會現在我們宣讀討論事項所列法案之條文請宣讀"},{"start":15664.912,"end":15692.101,"text":"第二条文高金素梅等27人提案第四项修正为目的事业主管机关应是原住民族教育及语言文化等传承发展需要会同主管机关新办投资或奖励民间新办专供或一定比例以上为原住民成租之社会住宅增订第五项第六项前项之比例由目的事业主管机关会同主管机关横着当地居原住民人口发展及居住需求定制第四项用于新办投资以及奖励资金费"},{"start":15692.461,"end":15712.161,"text":"除主管机关由中央住宅基金之意外目的事业主管机关得由原住民族综合发展基金之意其奖励资格条件方式其成绩其他应遵行事项之办法由目的事业主管机关会同主管机关定之其余同现行条文委员郑天才等18人提案第四项修正为中央主管机关与原住民族委员会应是原住民族教育及语言"},{"start":15712.708,"end":15736.813,"text":"文化等传承发展需要信办或奖励民间信办专供原住民成租之社会住宅其经费由中央住宅基金指引其余同性情条文第四条委员黄建豪等16人提案第一项中户段增订提供50%比率出租与育有未满12岁之家庭增订第三项第一项有关育有未满12岁子女之家庭依其符合资格之子女人数得有优先顺序成租"},{"start":15737.213,"end":15744.239,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":15761.474,"end":15781.193,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等17人提案 委員李昆城等24人提案 增定第二項第八款 八欲有未成年身心障礙者一人以上 原第八至第十三款 款次異 其餘同線型條文委員馬文君等19人提案 增定第二項第八款 八戶籍內欲有未成年身心障礙者一人以上 原第八至十三款 款次異 其餘同線型條文"},{"start":15781.633,"end":15801.401,"text":"委员高金素梅等27人提案第一项40%修正为50%其余同县庭条文第十条委员刘许婷等16人提案增订第三项至第七项前条第一项第三款补贴或其他机关办理各项租金补贴之核准案件由各该核准机关进行登录成交案件实际资讯以下简称登录资讯"},{"start":15801.861,"end":15826.1,"text":"前项登录资讯除涉及个人资料外的提供查询第三项登录资讯类别内容与前项提供之内容方式收费费额及其他应征形式项准用不动产经纪业管理条例第24条之一第五项锁定办法之规定第三项受理机关为查核登录资讯得向租赁双方要求查询取阅有关文件或提出说明受查核者不得规避妨碍或拒绝"},{"start":15826.656,"end":15842.701,"text":"前项查核不得去确保登录资讯正确心目的之必要范围其余同现行条文第15条为赖世宝等17人提案第一项末段修正为但每屋每月租金收入免税额都不得超过新台币2万元其余同现行条文委员李燕秀等17人提案"},{"start":15844.4,"end":15872.226,"text":"第一项末段修正为但每屋每月租金收入免税额都不得超过新台币25000元其余同现行条文第18条台湾民众党党团提案增订并修正为第18条中央主管机关应兼职社会住宅需求登记平台供全国符合本法第25条第一项资格民众登记并定期统计分析其需求资讯作为评估社会住宅新办户数供给区位房型配比以及公共设施提供等重要依据纳入住宅计划及财务计划"},{"start":15872.726,"end":15889.487,"text":"委员徐新颖等26人提案第一项增订并修正为主管机关应建制社会住宅需求登记平台公符合本法第25条第一项资格民众登记并定其统计分析评估社会住宅之需求总量供给区位群伴户数房型配比以及公共设施提供等需求资讯"},{"start":15889.887,"end":15907.739,"text":"并纳入住宅计划及财务计划增订第二项因特殊因素无法自行登记上传资料之申请者主管机关应定定办法协助之委员高金素美等27人提案第一项修正为主管机关应评估社会住宅之需求总量当地人口发展原住民人口发展"},{"start":15909.321,"end":15924.299,"text":"及其居住需求区位及新办户数纳入住宅计划及财务计划增订第二项同委员徐新颖等26人提案第一项增订第三项为因故无法自行申请者主管机关应予以协助之委员林沁琪等23人提案修正为"},{"start":15925.04,"end":15943.732,"text":"第十八条,中央主管机关应建置社会住宅需求登记平台,提供符合申请资格证明中登记并以登记之资料内容作为分析评估社会住宅新建之需求户总数量、新建地域区域位、房型设计配比以及公共设施需求等之新建依据、纳入住宅计划及财务计划。"},{"start":15944.452,"end":15966.89,"text":"第十九条台湾民众党党团提案增订第一项第八款罢列为区段征收公办室地重划应取得必要公共设施原第八款一列第九款增订第四项以第一项第八款新办制社会住宅中央主管机关应横着开发面积预计人口数以及周边地区社会住宅需求等因素定定办法规范应取得要件及数量标准其余同现行条文"},{"start":15967.45,"end":15987.411,"text":"为零限期的23人提案增订第一项第八款八利用列为区段征收及市地重划之土地人第八款已列为第九款增订第四项以第一项第八款之方式所取得之土地至少需留设不低于50%之土地面积作为新办社会住宅之使用其余同现行条文"},{"start":15988.905,"end":16010.829,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案增订第19条之一第19条第1项第6款新办之社会住宅各年度计划物件总量中采成租民间住宅并转租及代为管理以达50%为原则并优先转租与符合本法第4条第2项之对象中央主管机关应与卫生福利部协同建立弱势储育协助机制"},{"start":16011.469,"end":16028.238,"text":"第20条台湾民众党党团提案第二款修正为二以区段征收取得可供建筑土地或市地重划取得底废地和建分屋其余同线性条文委员林倩琪等23人提案增订第五款利用列为区段征收及市地重划之土地"},{"start":16028.658,"end":16049.296,"text":"原第五款一列第六款其余同意现行条文委员牛许婷等17人提案增订第21条之一第21条之一于拟定或变更都市计划时都市计划拟定机关应横着当地人口发展局居住需求会商统计主管机关评估划定社会住宅专用区并将评估结论及理由在明于计划书内"},{"start":16049.796,"end":16077.334,"text":"未储备社会住宅土地以区段征收或市地重划办理都市计划之开发者除以依前项规定办理者外与开发财务损益平衡时即应保留一定比例其余可供建筑或折抵抵付共同负担之住宅区土地供主管机关依前条规定办理拨用或租用不得标收标租或设定地上权前项至一定比例由中央主管机关横着当地人口发展及居住需求定之第22条文吴佩义等17人提案"},{"start":16079.916,"end":16099.728,"text":"第23条委员徐晓鑫等20人提案委员黎英秀等17人提案第二项第一款后段修正为每屋每月租金收入免税额度不得超过新台币25000元其余同现行条文委员赖世宝等17人提案第二项第一款后段修正为每屋每月租金收入免税额度不得超过新台币20000元其余同现行条文"},{"start":16100.308,"end":16116.338,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案增订第二项第一款一第十九条第一项第六款且采成租民间住宅并转租及代为管理者住宅出租期间所获租金收入免纳综合所得税但每屋每月租金收入免税额都不得超过新台币三万元"},{"start":16116.798,"end":16146.433,"text":"原第一款一列第二款并修正为二千款以外者住宅出租期间所获租金收入免纳综合所得税但每屋每月租金收入免税额度不得超过新台币一万五千元原第二款一列第三款其余同现行条文委员徐新英等二十六人提案第二项第一款修正为一住宅出租期间所获租金收入免纳综合所得税依第十九条第一项第六款规定新办每屋每月租金收入免税额度不得超过新台币二万五千元"},{"start":16146.973,"end":16166.622,"text":"以第十九条第一项第五款及第二项第四款规定新办每屋每月租金收入免税额度不得超过新台币一万五千元其余同现行条文委员吴佩义等17人提案第一项后段增订出租与第四条第二项经济或社会弱势者身份得利于奖励删除第三项原第四项一列第三项其余同现行条文"},{"start":16167.222,"end":16188.517,"text":"第24条委员林倩起等23人提案第一项同性型条文增订第二项民间新办之社会住宅有下列情形之一并经主管机关评估其必要资金之取得有困难者主管机关应提供必要之融资贷款信用保证应提供至少80%以上比率出租于经济或社会弱势者而位于有严重住宅供需失衡之地区者"},{"start":16188.997,"end":16218.156,"text":"第25条委员林黛华等17人提案增订第5项第二项租金之定定如有调涨需于周月到期前60日公布且每次调涨不得超过原租金之一成其余同现行条文委员罗志强等16人提案第二项后段增订65岁以上之社会住宅成租者其租赁与续租期限主管机关应予以例外延长第三项后段增订并修正为以收入作为急剧定定分级收费原则每两年检讨之并送立法院审查其余同现行条文"},{"start":16218.636,"end":16240.514,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第二项中断增订租金调整文字第三项修正为社会住宅成租者之租金计算中央主管机关依依家户所得与财产计算可负担能力定定分级收费原则并定期检讨之其余同现行条文委员徐新颖等26人提案第三项修正为社会住宅成租者之租金计算中央主管机关应斟酌成租者"},{"start":16241.034,"end":16257.846,"text":"家户所得状况家户财产及人口负担能力及市场行情定定分级收费原则并每二年检讨之其余同现行条文委员高金素美等27人提案第三项后段增订并修正委以收入作为极具定定分级收费原则每二年检讨之其余同现行条文"},{"start":16258.346,"end":16282.486,"text":"第四十条台湾民众党党团提案第三项后段修正修正为直辖市县市主管机关应以领取租金补贴及列册弱势家户为优先对象清查不符基本居住水准家户之居住状况并定地辅导改善执行计划以确保符合国民基本居住水准增订第四项前项辅导改善执行计划得以专案提供社会住宅租金补贴修山住宅补贴等措施办理"},{"start":16283.126,"end":16310.175,"text":"人第四项一列第五项便修正为中央主管机关因补助并督导直辖市县市主管机关执行第三项清查作业并另定办法规范第四项专案措施其余同现行条文第四十七条台湾民众党党团提案增订第一项第二款二租赁住宅市场不同物件形态物领之每平均均数与中位数价格资讯其中属本法第九条第一项第三款第十九条第一项第六款之物件应优先办理"},{"start":16310.595,"end":16327.37,"text":"原第二三四款款次第一其余同先行条文委员徐欣盈等26人提案增订第一项第二款二注定住宅市场不同物件形态物零之美评平均数与中微数价格资讯原第二三四款款次第一其余同先行条文第52条台湾民众党党团提案"},{"start":16328.03,"end":16352.388,"text":"第二项后面增订其中属第十九条第一项第六款成租民间住宅并转租及代为管理物件之补助总金额不得少于每合成出租双方及代为管理物件二倍其余同现行条文委员高金素梅等二十七人提案增订第一项第二款二租赁住宅市场不同物件形态区位房型配比物领之每平均数与中位数价格及公共设施提供资讯"},{"start":16352.748,"end":16361.959,"text":"原第二至四款款次第其余同现行条文委员连续庭等16人提案增订第57条之一第57条之一申请第九条第一项第三款补贴"},{"start":16362.472,"end":16388.944,"text":"或其他机关办理至各项租金补贴之人提供之租金或面积资讯不实经受理机关登录资讯者由中央执辖师或县市主管机关处新台币一万元以上五万元以下罚还提供之租金及面积以外资讯不实经受理机关登录资讯者中央执辖师县市主管机关应令其限期改正借其未改正处新台币六千元以上三万元以下罚还违反第十条第六项规定规避妨碍或拒绝"},{"start":16389.764,"end":16390.085,"text":"好 谢谢"},{"start":16406.874,"end":16426.053,"text":"我們請行政機關這個針對過去的公聽會今天的這個尋答的一個結果提供更詳細的相關資料以立未來討論這個大體討論跟主條討論的時候的參考那麼我們討論事項所列議案我們今天定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16620","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd730853615cfad2729b5fa2f296a93534bd9360bdedb085226931b1919b321f355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-24T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T13:42:00+08:00","duration":18721,"影片長度":"05:12:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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張遊仁處長"},{"start":2241.502,"end":2249.545,"text":"國安部通信電子資訊參謀次長是資安暨網站整備處張克勤處長國安局第五處孫組長陸委會資訊是陳盈哲主任人事行政總處"},{"start":2271.53,"end":2298.61,"text":"培訓考用處賴嘉陽專門委員主編人力處谷元寧專門委員情緒部退輔師邱德敏專門委員各自保護委員會籌備處隱私科技組林益成組長"},{"start":2304.603,"end":2320.538,"text":"現在道場委員還有我們的李柏毅委員林國成、趙偉那請問各位委員對伊斯路有沒有意見沒有意見我們就確定伊斯路"},{"start":2329.976,"end":2340.429,"text":"本日進行資通安全管理法修正案共14案的審查先請委員說明提案要旨首先葛如君委員"},{"start":2355.75,"end":2381.101,"text":"好我們時間也三分鐘左右啦謝謝沒問題首先要謝謝主席對於國家資通安全的重視那在今天排審資通安全管理法修正草案也感謝跨黨派的立法委員同僚們大家共同關注資安的議題那駭客攻擊事件呢在全球是持續升溫根據統計尤其是以製造業"},{"start":2381.761,"end":2406.616,"text":"和醫療保健產業在台灣的受害情況最為嚴重近期我們台灣也發生多起醫療院所遭到駭客攻擊的事件引起民眾對於個人病例資料外洩的擔憂和疑慮我個人在教育文化委員會也關注非常多的學校在前線可能也有這樣的一個陰影由於地緣政治的關係台灣每秒遭遇駭客攻擊大約1.5萬次我現在講這句話的過程裡可能就已經超過10萬次了"},{"start":2410.618,"end":2434.274,"text":"是其他地方的四倍台灣的電子產業尤其半導體業非常的發達全球駭客通常會針對台灣的重點產業來發動攻擊來竊取重要的機密資訊另外一方面台灣有高達95%的企業又是中小企業能夠投入資安維護的資源相對的稀少容易成為駭客用來練兵的對象因此"},{"start":2435.054,"end":2464.734,"text":"本席所提出的修法版本第四条特别强调为提升通讯安全自通安全政府应提供资源整合民间产业的力量并提升全民自通安全的意识与此同时政府也应该协助民间来处理因应以及防范自通安全的事件套用资安界著名的随从理论整体系统的安全性取决于最低安全程度的一环若将整个国家的自通安全视为一体政府应该有责任也有义务要投入更多的资源"},{"start":2465.414,"end":2480.961,"text":"協助民間企業來提升他們的資安能力才能夠有效提升我們國家整體的資安能力除此之外本席所提出的修法版本也特別重視公正第三方監督查核的重要性唯有納入公正第三方的監督才能夠確保"},{"start":2481.941,"end":2507.484,"text":"國家資通系統的建制以及後續的維護管理皆符合資通安全相關的規定另外在修正案的第10條有關資通安全管理機制的建立與實施上我所提出的版本也特別強調公務機關或特定非公務機關於本法適用範圍內委外辦理資通系統之建制維運或資通服務之提供該系統屬委託機關之核心資通系統"},{"start":2508.044,"end":2521.902,"text":"或委託金額達1000萬新台幣以上者委託機關應另行委託公證第三方進行安全查核那我的修正案版本第11條也特別強調公務機關以及非特定公務機關應規劃"},{"start":2523.464,"end":2552.791,"text":"并于公正第三方的监督之下办理资通安全演练作业相关的规范呢希望能够有更多公正第三方国际公正第三方的安全监督才能够有效确保国家自通讯系统的建制以及管理那我想我们也希望呢能够依照资安相关的规定以及标准来运行以上是我所提出的修正草案版本的重点也恳请各位立院同僚部分党派一同来支持谢谢"},{"start":2561.472,"end":2585.042,"text":"謝謝現在我們請台灣民眾黨黨團黃國昌委員說明謝謝主席還有所有與會的官員跟委員台灣民眾黨黨團提出刺痛安全管理法相關的修正草案主要有兩個重要的原因一個"},{"start":2586.304,"end":2596.503,"text":"過去法案規範的強度跟密度明顯不足我相信過去幾年來非常多的學者專家以及關心國安"},{"start":2598.749,"end":2625.045,"text":"都全部提供出來寶貴的意見第二個事情是我在追蹤的時候發現超級荒謬的狀況是我們國發基金投資的公司在我們的軍事要塞設中國的通安的產品明顯違反相關的法律但幾次的質詢搞了半天沒有法律可以處罰"},{"start":2627.283,"end":2646.786,"text":"問國防部國防部說請他們拆掉就算了這樣會有賀止效果嗎因此我們這一次所提出的直通安全管理法規範的草案跟行政院的版本相比有五大特色第一個"},{"start":2648.22,"end":2666.721,"text":"我們成立國家資通安全匯報這個匯報希望一方面由行政院院長親自來家裡召集另外一方面能夠納入外部的專家學者讓整個資通安全匯報它不僅僅"},{"start":2668.24,"end":2679.315,"text":"有公權力作為後盾的強度同時也有外部的專家可以來進行共同參與公民社會的監督第二個特點"},{"start":2680.966,"end":2704.694,"text":"規範的主體範圍擴大目前就有關於在自動安全管理法裡面非公務機關跟特定的非公務機關那我們希望把它納入的範圍包括受政府控制的事業團體或者是機構那這樣子才不會讓一些重要的設施重要的機構應該納入規範卻沒有納入規範"},{"start":2708.038,"end":2730.665,"text":"第三個部分針對過去有關於自通安全管理法裡面所要規範的危害國家自通安全產品這個規範課題從來在母法裡面就沒有明確的定義那為了要符合法的明確性的原則以及跟後面的法則能夠相配合我們希望"},{"start":2731.365,"end":2747.593,"text":"在法律的層次而不是在授權行政命令的層次明確的去定義什麼是危害國家自通安全的產品第四個部分針對有關於公務機關在一定的條件下可以例外使用"},{"start":2749.814,"end":2769.899,"text":"這一些可能有危害國家安全之通產品的情況的時候我們就例外使用的情況他例外使用進一步不可以是開放的授權而必須要有進一步強度的規範包括指定的區域跟人員包括了購置的理由消失應該要銷毀等等"},{"start":2773.32,"end":2795.475,"text":"那第五個也是最重要的一個在違反相關法律的時候一定要有罰則啊這個罰則的強化要確保相關的行為人在違反國家自動安全管理相關的規範的時候必須要有清楚的法則啊否則像聯合再生在我們的軍事要塞裡面啊裝"},{"start":2796.676,"end":2816.27,"text":"中國的資通訊產品被抓到了以後到目前為止沒有任何的處罰只是叫他把東西拆掉目前還跟國防部在爭執不願意把東西拆掉現在東西都還在我們的攔指部這種荒謬的狀況可以停止以上說明 謝謝謝謝 我們現在請黃哲委員"},{"start":2834.858,"end":2854.391,"text":"好謝謝主席在場所有委員還有所有的官員大家早安那在我的版本裡面我必須要強調我還是針對這個中共的妄害的手法來提修法因為大家知道說台灣不只是遭受到中國的軍事的武力威脅那我們也面臨非常嚴重的資安的攻擊"},{"start":2855.251,"end":2873.711,"text":"那也一直都是全球資安工坊的重災區那以去年的數據來看就好就知道說政府網際網路的這個服務網每天遭受到的侵擾是240萬次然後甚至是前一年的兩倍那也都不斷的在增加當中"},{"start":2874.332,"end":2894.354,"text":"那我們國安局其實有提供一份報告裡面有提到說這個中共網害手法的分析報告去年中共對台灣政府和民間的網路駭客的案件集中在電信業者電信業者跟交通還有國防的供應鏈三大領域當中然後遭受到的攻擊是前一年的6.5倍"},{"start":2895.675,"end":2920.568,"text":"那過去幾個月有聽到說在醫院、學校、私人公司遭受到中國駭客入侵的事件那也有駭客試圖要竊取病人的個資還有醫療紀錄上面的他們的資料來上網販售導致掛號系統暫時失靈甚至是被害的私人機構還遭到勒贖成功的事件發生在台灣"},{"start":2921.488,"end":2941.378,"text":"所以這都顯示說在台灣的資安侵擾真的越來越頻繁而且是非常非常嚴重的國家安全的威脅所以在我的版本裡面也希望可以補足現行法律的漏洞那有提出跟幾個院版比較不同的地方是其中一個是要明定公務機關跟特定的非公務機關不得採購"},{"start":2942.819,"end":2971.98,"text":"以及不得使用中資的廠商還有中國的地區包括港澳啊還有境外勢力等等實質控制的組織還有提供的資通服務還有系統跟設備那我希望這個修法的目的是要讓台灣的資安系統上面可以完全的阻斷紅色的供應鏈所以也希望所有的黨派都可以來支持來確保台灣的數位安全也希望資通安全管理法這個會期就可以三讀"},{"start":2978.748,"end":2980.07,"text":"謝謝我們請李博弈委員"},{"start":2992.753,"end":3014.412,"text":"謝謝今天交通委員會來排審資通安全法這一個法我是在第一個會期的時候提出來的台灣面臨最嚴重的網路攻擊、資安攻擊以及認知作戰這一個部分的修法我們希望可以針對資安攻擊裡面包含所有台灣的除了政府部門以外"},{"start":3014.912,"end":3042.344,"text":"那我提出了修正第二條希望來明訂全責機關單位之外我又修正第十一條也就是公務及特定非公務機關應設置資通安全長之外資通安全長應通過職安訓練機關的評量或主管機關合格者那這一些裡面包含國家重要基礎設施包含台電中油台水證交所醫院"},{"start":3043.164,"end":3063.783,"text":"還有掌握重大個資的各個公司等等我們希望都可以列入這一個修法的管理那所以說面對敵對國家也就是中國逐漸的升級無所不在的網路攻擊那我們希望透過這個修法那可以"},{"start":3066.405,"end":3088.111,"text":"可以很有效率的可以很有效的保護到所有台灣所有相關的這些資訊安全的內容那也在這邊懇請交通委員會跨黨派所有委員的支持大家進行討論 謝謝好 謝謝 現在我們進行機關報告請速發部黃部長報告"},{"start":3106.915,"end":3120.447,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家早今天應邀列席委員會議針對資通安全管理法修正草案以下簡稱本修正草案進行報告說明如下"},{"start":3121.428,"end":3149.217,"text":"自動安全管理法是從107年6月6日制定公佈108年元旦正式實施以來至今從未修法近年來全球自動安全威脅日益升高與政府與關鍵基礎設施平成駭客攻擊的目標各國如美國歐盟日本等皆陸續強化治安法及執法的機制以維護國家安全及經濟穩定"},{"start":3151.017,"end":3162.529,"text":"現行自動安全管理法於108年正式實施累積執行經驗後發現部分條文無法有效回應新興治安風險經管理的需求"},{"start":3163.769,"end":3191.581,"text":"近年來國內陸續發生多起治安事件如醫療院所遭入侵機敏資料外洩關鍵基礎設施遭攻擊顯示現行制度仍有不足漏洞期待追捕本修正草案旨在強化國家整體資通安全法律規範促進政府跨機關合作及區域聯防並提升公司部門治安的防護能力"},{"start":3193.041,"end":3219.08,"text":"賴總統在114年3月13號召開國安高層會議並親自召開記者會提出五大國安及統戰威脅以及17項因應策略其中提及各主管機關需防止敵對勢力透過網路應用程式AI等工具危害治安應該修正強化自動安全管理法以健全我國治安環境並落實實施"},{"start":3220.629,"end":3243.249,"text":"本修正草案於113年7月4日提報行政院院會通過並含情立法院審議立法院於113年7月12日一讀交付委員會審查並經再檢視與總統上街式的內容相符本次修正共修17條有六大重點 摘要如下第一"},{"start":3244.195,"end":3257.4,"text":"明確主管機關及各機關全責是修正條的第二條修正本法與主管機關皆為數位發展部並明定國家自動安全業務由治安署辦理"},{"start":3258.308,"end":3274.277,"text":"第二導入導入中央地方聯防機制中央政府地方政府協同合作共同應對突發事件與重大挑戰的運作模式以提高應變效率降低災害事件對社會的衝擊"},{"start":3276.598,"end":3290.788,"text":"再來就是擴大治安的集合範圍這裡面是包括修正條第8條第14條跟第15條修正治安署的集合無上級機關或監督機關如總統府國家安全會議及委員將集合範圍擴大至全國的公務機關能夠協助各機關檢視及精進治安的管理"},{"start":3297.987,"end":3319.589,"text":"再來就是完善特定非公務機關及委外廠商的監督這是修正條文的第10條公務機關或特定非公務機關於本法適用範圍內委外辦理自通系統的建置、維運或自通服務的提供應選任適當的受託者並要求受託者建立有效的自通安全管理機制"},{"start":3320.85,"end":3349.055,"text":"並監督該機制的實施確保委外廠商落實資安防護機制避免納管機關產生資安防護的漏洞再來就是限制高風險資安產品現行各機關有關危害國家自動安全產品的使用是以行政規則各機關危害自動安全產品限制使用原則規範提升至法律未接並明確授權"},{"start":3350.646,"end":3375.774,"text":"再來就是要增訂行政調查機制修正條文的第25條增訂中央目的事業主管機關對特定非公務機關重大自動安全事件進行調查並了解治安事件的根因並訂定更完整的保護機制提升國家整體的自動安全再來就是要訂定自動安全能源設置的要求這裡面是修正條文第19條第20條21條跟23條"},{"start":3380.687,"end":3398.878,"text":"機關應符合自動安全責任的等級要求設置責任安全專職人員強化專業知識增訂特定非公務機關應設置自動安全長及符合自動安全責任等級的設置專職人員"},{"start":3400.475,"end":3416.407,"text":"增訂資安人員適任性的查核機制此次資通安全管理法修法後希望能夠帶來各方面的效益尤其是在強化國家整體資安防護提升公司部門的資安任性來因應信心威脅根據前瞻性的實效"},{"start":3417.769,"end":3439.297,"text":"這裡特別感謝各委員對治安法的關切跟期待各委員所提出的治安法的草案版本本部都有收到也都有延期雖然有些文字跟院版有些出入但大致內容跟修法方向都跟院版草案相同懇請委員支持治安法院版草案通過以強化五國治安的防護謝謝"},{"start":3449.457,"end":3473.877,"text":"謝謝其餘機關報告請各位參考書面並列入紀錄刊登公報那今天進行選檔因為後面那個版本很多要念很久所以我們委員的那個質詢時間就比較太長那也請那個我們那個時間到的時候如果超過一分鐘再想一次"},{"start":3475.555,"end":3498.318,"text":"好 那尋找時間出席委員5加1分鐘 內席委員4分鐘委員發言登記於10點半截止各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出 以便議事人員會展暫定10點半休息10分鐘 中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位委員 侯孟楷發言"},{"start":3508.476,"end":3509.299,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請黃部長請部長"},{"start":3518.251,"end":3546.202,"text":"部長 資安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們資安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們速發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們資安署這邊來負責 對不對"},{"start":3547.863,"end":3557.593,"text":"那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠"},{"start":3558.882,"end":3582.988,"text":"我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所以說所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就知道等於是一倍多的業務量"},{"start":3584.749,"end":3610.745,"text":"我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自動安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這一些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊"},{"start":3612.026,"end":3639.139,"text":"安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上一頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上"},{"start":3640.43,"end":3642.141,"text":"是要經過特殊查核的"},{"start":3643.632,"end":3670.785,"text":"但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣"},{"start":3672.35,"end":3684.326,"text":"來 那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們的相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他是說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分"},{"start":3686.215,"end":3712.885,"text":"這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改部長我們現在就在已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下"},{"start":3716.264,"end":3740.63,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的這個適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁是要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性"},{"start":3742.29,"end":3762.401,"text":"那您的法源依據咧但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表是報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核也是請那個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡那這不需要法院 這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局"},{"start":3768.004,"end":3789.501,"text":"我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是應該來 部長"},{"start":3796.472,"end":3823.546,"text":"那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對 未來的部分就是我們會增加試驗性查核試驗性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嗎但是我們現在講就是說各"},{"start":3825.507,"end":3844.903,"text":"來本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度 精守的程度非常的高"},{"start":3846.84,"end":3869.183,"text":"一樣嘛 如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署 五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬 只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口 是漏洞"},{"start":3869.924,"end":3892.647,"text":"所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話 我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核"},{"start":3893.086,"end":3918.237,"text":"有編列在這個資安法裡面嗎目前的新年汽車裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話"},{"start":3920.461,"end":3948.579,"text":"2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這個清單會不會出來那個鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database"},{"start":3949.319,"end":3977.446,"text":"會有Database會持續的update嘛因為本時有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們這邊也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及"},{"start":3979.026,"end":3998.938,"text":"列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查跟之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了"},{"start":4000.222,"end":4011.016,"text":"這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是 謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是"},{"start":4017.504,"end":4033.401,"text":"我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用"},{"start":4034.181,"end":4055.427,"text":"是那報部裡面同意署長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品"},{"start":4057.71,"end":4076.95,"text":"我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報"},{"start":4079.312,"end":4102.546,"text":"備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每年都有清查就是政府計畫有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證每年都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題"},{"start":4103.827,"end":4117.087,"text":"目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是不是有什麼使用部長 不好意思一句話啦資安大家都關心不分朝也不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新"},{"start":4119.661,"end":4142.721,"text":"萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們速發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝"},{"start":4151.687,"end":4161.311,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請李昆哲委員謝謝昭緯 請一下黃部長請部長"},{"start":4168.368,"end":4189.028,"text":"部長您好 相關國家的資安架構是非常重要的不管是公部門或者是非特定的公務機關我們發現到相關的資安人力的配置是嚴重的人力不足那相關的資安人力的配置就好像是一座城"},{"start":4189.989,"end":4212.486,"text":"我們相關的資安架構就是要守護這一座城的相關的基本的人力基本的人力不足的時候其實成本是很容易被攻破的要一個打十個不是每個資安人員都是越問我們來看我們數位發展部我們的資安署所公布的統計資料就是2023年"},{"start":4214.548,"end":4221.11,"text":"就是中央及地方公部門它依法配置的資安專責人員要有1533人但是實際編制的正式人員只有939人它僅佔需求的61.25%而已"},{"start":4232.754,"end":4256.273,"text":"如果說我們中央級地方的公部門非正職人員因為正式人員不足我們有一些非正式人員的人力補充包含約聘僱委外總共335人即使再加上這一些外聘的人力公部門的缺額還是達到239人就是說有近16%的缺口沒有填補那"},{"start":4258.433,"end":4271.662,"text":"人力的不足啊 職安人力的不足 部長有什麼具體的想法嗎我們部裡面針對 剛剛講就是說一個當然就是我們有一些訓練 轉職系的訓練那預計今年都就是大概是500 450到500 就會補今年會補制裁400到500個人"},{"start":4277.225,"end":4304.06,"text":"那另外當然我們有高考的所謂的資安類科那個也大概我們會增加我們的宣傳希望更多人來報考那希望從這些訓練管道轉職系跟高考的這樣一個人員來補充我們現在資安人力不足的問題那細節是不是資安署署的資安署這邊我還是要提醒你們我們公部門的資安的人力是嚴重的不足"},{"start":4304.704,"end":4320.38,"text":"那當然主要的原因就是待遇不具競爭力工部門的薪資是低於業界這當然是不爭的事實以及現行的人事的規定它彈性不足"},{"start":4321.181,"end":4344.502,"text":"那我們看看特定的非公務機關像關鍵的基礎設施的營運單位或者是國營事業或者是經過指定的重要民間機構它其實同樣依資通安全管理法它還是需要建立資安的組織跟專責的人員它其實也同樣面臨資安人力不足的問題"},{"start":4346.772,"end":4373.946,"text":"我認為我們公司部門同樣面臨這種專業的資安人員的編制不足以及正式的編制人員大概只有六成出頭那剩餘的都要靠約聘跟委外來處理那其實它的外流這種職位的穩定性還是嚴重不足了離職率非常的高來說明一下"},{"start":4374.56,"end":4400.689,"text":"是謝謝委員的指導委員所講的確是一個非常重要的一個問題那的確是因為現在資安人力非常有限所以各個領域各個部門公司都在競爭有限的資安人力那待遇的確是一個非常重要考量的因素那因為公部門的待遇的確是沒有辦法跟市部門的這種待遇薪資來比較所以在人才的競逐上面是比較吃虧所以我們有一些"},{"start":4401.269,"end":4415.106,"text":"包括一些獎益的措施 待遇的這些流採的措施目前是有一個增資加給就是只要是有這個A級的機關他可以有些增資加給來增加他的一些待遇不過這個還是永遠不足以對"},{"start":4417.589,"end":4436.651,"text":"是否能夠將資安人員來列入這種高風險的專業的職系提供額外的這種職級的晉升跟員工加級來留住人才這個是不是以後要推動的一個方向是的我們會努力那這個要跟人事總署這邊再來積極的溝通"},{"start":4438.815,"end":4460.432,"text":"另外我們對於地方機關的資安的問題同樣他的資安責任以及他實務的推動還是有陷入相關的困境我看到我們台灣2024年每週平均遭受3993次的攻擊這是全球平均的138.6%是亞太之罪"},{"start":4464.775,"end":4481.99,"text":"那當然我們看到修法好像只是聚焦在相關的集合通報流程的提升它其實它制度的最脆弱最核心的漏洞還是沒有去能夠完全的防禦那我們看看全台灣368個鄉鎮當中"},{"start":4486.175,"end":4509.006,"text":"有超過上分之一是沒有專任的資訊人員更不用說資安人員那原鄉地區有很多人他一個人要負責多種的業務社福、民政、急難救助以及相關的這些工作他還要再加上資訊的這些工作一人身兼多職"},{"start":4510.166,"end":4527.403,"text":"那我要嚴肅的請教一下蘇發部我們有沒有去盤點鄉鎮層級的實際他的資安的基礎能量以及這些機關有沒有基本的偵測跟通報的能力來說明一下那個我們在署長說明"},{"start":4528.46,"end":4545.9,"text":"謝謝委員講到一個問題的重點就是地方基層的這種資訊或資安能力不足的問題那這個當然人的問題有時候不是短時間內可以解決那我們目前是從整個架構上面是向上集中因為這是重要的資訊系統還有資安的防護主要還是由縣市政府這邊來負責整個的規劃跟推動"},{"start":4549.464,"end":4577.547,"text":"規劃跟推動你們有沒有要去建立相關的這種區域的資安資源的團隊面對這種編制跟人力不足還有資安的漏洞所以我們才會說向上集中之後再建立一個區域的資安的團隊例如說跟當地的一些大學等等的合作由他們來做一些相關的資安的一些不管是檢測還是防護的防護的輔導跟協助我想這種公私協力才有可能把這個鄉鎮公所的這個資訊或是資安的能量來提升"},{"start":4578.483,"end":4602.679,"text":"這都是很嚴肅而且很嚴重的問題最後我問一個問題就是說我們的資安的事件它相關的通報制度以及它揭露的一個問題我們來看看其他國家跟我們台灣的這些相關揭露以及通報的這些的落差那台灣主要是要求內部的足跡通報"},{"start":4603.911,"end":4618.099,"text":"其實對外揭露缺乏強制性因為我們台灣的資安法主要是強調內部通報那規定政府單位以及特定非公務機關發生資安事件的時候"},{"start":4618.979,"end":4633.77,"text":"他依照事件的等級在一定的時間之內要足及的上報主管機關跟行政院的資安的這些主管機關那其實對外揭露方面他其實沒有強制的條文"},{"start":4634.651,"end":4657.859,"text":"只有在涉及個人個資的時候會適用個人資料保護法而要求通知當事人那但是我們個資法的規定也相當的籠統缺乏明確的時間的這些實現跟處罰那實際上其實是有很大的問題那我們來看看美國歐洲日本韓國"},{"start":4659.099,"end":4681.377,"text":"他們都有明確的規定他們規定24至72小時之內有強制通報及揭露的這個制度那這個對重大事件的公開揭露及通知的義務他們都有明確的規定那我是不是具體建議我們重大的資安事件應該在72小時之內就要通報政府"},{"start":4682.657,"end":4697.576,"text":"另外要建立揭露的義務跟他的一些差別性的罰則來避免這種沉默的共犯造成食安更大的漏洞那食安的通報是不是能夠比照食安的制度"},{"start":4699.178,"end":4720.211,"text":"具備強制揭露跟風險預警的功能來簡單說明一下謝謝委員建議我們現在是有要求就新的治安法有要求通在一個小時之內要通報不通報的話要會有罰則所以這個應該是會比委員建議更更更力道會更強一點不過但這個這個我們會在這個新的治安法現在"},{"start":4720.811,"end":4739.656,"text":"我知道我們也有相關的這個規定我們是要更明確的在相關的法則以及在制度的追蹤監督落實這個方面必須要更具體啦不要落於這種只是虛文的一個規範而已我們會嚴格執行好謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請蔡其昌委員"},{"start":4760.514,"end":4782.413,"text":"謝謝主席請速發部黃部長請部長部長好部長針對今天這個主席安排要來審這個法案本席也有提了"},{"start":4783.616,"end":4812.15,"text":"這個修正案 修正案的版本那修了好幾條但其他我想跟行政院大同小異的我們就不談但其中這個第四條本席的版本提到政府應該提供資源協助民間處理因應及防範知通安全威脅事件部長你有注意到本席的版本嗎有那部裡面有沒有什麼看法對於本席這個條文的提出"},{"start":4813.223,"end":4840.553,"text":"我們現在有這個治安本來就是需要公司協力所以我們現在是有那個就像TW社這樣一個機制讓通報協助來處理一些治安的事件那所以這個我想委員的提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同我想概念上你們不會反對但本席為什麼要加進去我希望讓你們有法源的基礎為什麼我要這樣提呢"},{"start":4842.367,"end":4868.073,"text":"部長你看過監察院對有一個調查報告在公告時間是113年的1月18號主要的暗由就是針對這個民間企業及個人資料外洩上網被兜售的事件這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、合運租車等等其他這個企業那這個被盜的數目各自都是百萬筆、數百萬筆"},{"start":4870.677,"end":4896.067,"text":"那本席認為這個大型的這種事件危害到大型公共事務或者是各自大量的這個洩漏本席認為這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如說單一的一個什麼貿易公司啦一個什麼民間的企業他的電腦被害或者他幾個客戶的資料被偷我認為這個不可以用相同的角度來看"},{"start":4896.946,"end":4926.406,"text":"就像你們這次的修法裡面為什麼你會針對大型這種所謂不是大型這種政府所謂的關鍵性的這些設施啊譬如說過去培洛西議長來台灣訪問我們的這些政府公部門這種電子屏幕上面出現電子螢幕上面出現這個被害的然後有一些攻擊台灣的文字或者攻擊台美關係的文字的出現"},{"start":4927.567,"end":4935.474,"text":"那這個東西你們這一次裡面認為這個要處理嗎沒有錯嗎沒關係如果有要代替回答我也可以"},{"start":4936.328,"end":4960.06,"text":"那個這個主要是因為他用了一個產品就危害國家自動安全產品所以才產生這些事情所以這個從危害國家自動安全產品裡面可以做限制不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是對這種大型的公司尤其很多各自的公司的確就是要加強管理那我剛剛講就是說這個當然我們特定會公務機關這個定義這個講就是說其實各事業目的主要機關他們可以去要求"},{"start":4960.82,"end":4973.374,"text":"比如說像這個像I-LAND可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對 你們從產品"},{"start":4978.119,"end":4997.612,"text":"產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的"},{"start":4998.132,"end":5027.521,"text":"然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那"},{"start":5028.858,"end":5058.019,"text":"產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題它本來就產品是美國製啊然後再來它是大型企業它可能一時被害它沒辦法處理那政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對 這會協助對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取很系統性的"},{"start":5059.239,"end":5082.828,"text":"數量規模極大的你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅 資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的"},{"start":5083.368,"end":5091.538,"text":"我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在"},{"start":5093.052,"end":5117.173,"text":"政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是"},{"start":5118.234,"end":5142.217,"text":"不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕"},{"start":5143.988,"end":5167.137,"text":"它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品"},{"start":5170.632,"end":5194.657,"text":"只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是"},{"start":5196.276,"end":5213.268,"text":"資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個"},{"start":5215.677,"end":5241.927,"text":"最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討"},{"start":5243.327,"end":5258.775,"text":"這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平臺臉書上面就消失"},{"start":5260.049,"end":5282.297,"text":"那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子"},{"start":5283.803,"end":5301.555,"text":"那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果"},{"start":5303.122,"end":5317.615,"text":"訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明"},{"start":5318.817,"end":5336.329,"text":"他覺得不爽他就把你刪是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪"},{"start":5338.417,"end":5365.086,"text":"所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通"},{"start":5366.872,"end":5372.727,"text":"我們現在講韌性在國防在安全上面的韌性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題"},{"start":5374.144,"end":5399.501,"text":"我們就法令嘛 全世界 我們是 台灣是民主法治的國家 美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅 並不 台灣比他們強大 危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化 強太多所以我們面對 民主自由沒有關係 我用法治的角度我直接速發布 認為你就是要揭露嘛"},{"start":5400.373,"end":5423.439,"text":"我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道那我就不用你的嘛"},{"start":5424.219,"end":5447.592,"text":"你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼"},{"start":5449.833,"end":5476.274,"text":"這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛"},{"start":5477.014,"end":5498.228,"text":"所以中華民國的法令是什麼我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦"},{"start":5499.048,"end":5526.706,"text":"所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的common sense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的"},{"start":5528.288,"end":5541.877,"text":"好不好部長那個委員這個了解那我剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理"},{"start":5543.068,"end":5564.082,"text":"對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好"},{"start":5575.345,"end":5598.686,"text":"謝謝 我們請林國成委員謝謝主席 請黃部長請部長還有蔡市長還有蔡市長好 部長早"},{"start":5600.336,"end":5614.074,"text":"我想首先我有兩點小建議啦第一個我還是要建議部長就是所屬所有人上台待答詢的時候用語要精準"},{"start":5615.239,"end":5639.537,"text":"有就有 沒有就沒有不要在那邊模擬兩可這樣會影響委員在整個答詢過程當中會有錯誤的判斷這是我良心的建議第二個我看今天所有提案的14個包括我們行政驗版"},{"start":5640.523,"end":5656.929,"text":"大家所有治安的方向都非常正確了只是現在委員是站在民意機關看到整個基層所需要的東西所以"},{"start":5658.305,"end":5673.073,"text":"大方向都沒有問題只是一些修法的文字納入這是非常重要所以我要請教部長在這裡既然方向一致"},{"start":5674.093,"end":5688.104,"text":"只是在整個細節的部分我很冒昧的請教部長到底你們有沒有針對這些委員所提案的東西有沒有做一個綜合歸納跟"},{"start":5690.697,"end":5719.106,"text":"委員來做溝通文字如何修認為有可能就像我台灣民眾黨提出來就是我們現在行政院版裡面不一樣的就是我們希望扣大納入管理但是行政院只有政府機關所以在這個部分我不曉得部長有沒有責成屬下之人然後"},{"start":5720.026,"end":5737.622,"text":"有沒有去做研究跟委員說明溝通這樣下一次逐條討論會減少很多毛緩所以部長在這個部分你有沒有做這個動作我們那個有已經跟委員就是拜訪過"},{"start":5738.863,"end":5765.214,"text":"那個蠻多委員關於這條文剛剛講的那個我想那委員講的沒錯我們方向一致那至於文字文字的修改現在也在跟我們不同版本有比較也做研析那現在也是再來就會進行一些進一步跟委員溝通那我們會確定這些文字以後在後面再進行二讀三讀是啦部長這個資通安全啊確確實實啊我說實在的是未來"},{"start":5766.374,"end":5786.14,"text":"是一個非常刻不容緩急迫性的一個華啦因為過去我們想做但是依華無據嘛那現在既然有這個華要修行政院也有版本立法委員也有立法委員的版本所以在這個綜合方向我在看"},{"start":5786.92,"end":5814.967,"text":"治安安全未來的發展跟監督管理是非常重要那大家也都有共識所以在這個部分我還是要因為我長期也在交通所以我每當看到我們數匯部責任重大但是方向有時候是錯誤的所以我也私底下也建議部長過很多次啦也就是我們現在這個單位看起來"},{"start":5816.087,"end":5827.115,"text":"要人沒人要錢沒有什麼錢但是責任就很重大所以這個部分我希望部長要加強溝通好不好加強溝通逐條討論的時候會減少很多麻煩的這個委員會持續討論"},{"start":5833.94,"end":5849.607,"text":"好那另外因為我們大家都知道啦數位部有些人就認為這個沒有什麼重要性但是我認為是非常重要因為資安的發展也是你們要來資安的管理也是你們要來可是現在問題"},{"start":5850.968,"end":5863.108,"text":"科技日新月異的情況之下我們數位部就非常重要所以在這裡啊我記得我在三個月以前也就是民間的馬街醫院的問題"},{"start":5866.113,"end":5881.049,"text":"我要請問署長我已經執行三個月以前已經執行了你們針對這個醫院一連串前幾天還是有一個醫院我就感覺到很奇怪他們在竊取所有資料"},{"start":5881.75,"end":5905.416,"text":"完完全全是針對醫院有階段性喔有階段性那這些就是有計畫性的供給嘛所以我不曉得三個月以前我已經提出來我不曉得蔡署長你這裡針對所有的醫院包括馬街醫院你們做什麼處置跟做什麼做法請蔡署長回答好來署長"},{"start":5906.658,"end":5926.546,"text":"是 我想謝謝委員剛剛的寶貴的一個提醒跟建議那至於對這個醫院方面的相關的這個治安的保護部分那第一線是在衛護部這邊他們也做一些相關的報告你不要去再推那個蔡署長我要的是你這三個月有做什麼措施緩緩嘛"},{"start":5927.486,"end":5939.997,"text":"是是謝謝委員那在治安署這部分目前我們除了在這個聯防上面的這樣這個機制協助衛護部之外那另外我們在今年的相關的這個這個資訊服務團就治安服務團裡面我們有20個單位其中有一個10個單位是醫療的這個體系來做相關的輔導跟服務的工作"},{"start":5947.723,"end":5972.66,"text":"你不要跟我說那麼多啦你如果要書面報告你私底下再提供給我我要的時候你做什麼事你說那麼多是要幹什麼第一個我問你嘛你知不知道這個被確認以後這個有一些新藥品直接找病人去兜售你有沒有去掌握這些資訊我要的是這些你們到底有沒有這些像馬這醫院1600筆的資料1600萬筆喔"},{"start":5977.603,"end":6002.558,"text":"那這些病患都有這些廠商去兜售藥 你有沒有掌控還有另外一個 你有沒有告訴所有這些醫院的人要告知我們所有的病患 我的資料被確有沒有去做防範都是說 有人在給你做什麼其他的話 你要小心有沒有做這些動作 我要的是你這些嘛 有沒有"},{"start":6003.175,"end":6027.997,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛提到的這邊就是衛護部是醫院的目的主管機關所以剛剛委員這邊提到的你有沒有督促他們做嘛是是是有沒有嘛我都有跟衛護部這邊的資訊處這邊理事長這邊充分的請他這邊去好啦我問第一題你就這樣了來保長來保長我跟你講其實像這種東西就是亡羊補牢的動作要做"},{"start":6028.678,"end":6043.088,"text":"既然被侵犯了以後那我要如何去建立建立治安的SOP這很重要啊你既然被盜的時候被破的時候那當然你要告知對方啊就舉例"},{"start":6044.128,"end":6069.516,"text":"黃部長 你的資料已經那個了所以你以後要小心這個部分那我們要怎麼樣去亡羊補牢你要有SOP啦 保證我們說實在的 我知道你們人很少但是最起碼的保護措施要做嘛所以這 我要說保證 我是給你一個建議啦好 另外一個 另外一個問題不是只有醫院"},{"start":6071.555,"end":6086.712,"text":"剛剛蔡副院長已經講了包括私人最近大家比較夯的就是關稅開始的時候也就是航運這幾天也是被那個駭客攻擊喔"},{"start":6088.018,"end":6102.953,"text":"所以 部長 請你來答啦 蔡署長都給我答的 我沒什麼鬆開啦你知道 針對問題答覆 我已經跟你講過了所以如果你以後要這樣答覆 我坦白跟你講 你就書面報告給我 我就不問對不對 來 署長 部長"},{"start":6110.919,"end":6117.626,"text":"就是航運現在也是被盜如何處理這幾天而已喔"},{"start":6119.957,"end":6142.327,"text":"好啦我跟你講啦就是這個這個有幾家現在就是醫院到完以後他現在在到航運公司的資料他們做這個我不曉得要做什麼可是最起碼任何一個犯罪行為我想法務部或什麼他們就是犯罪一定有他的目的嘛啊不然他做什麼犯罪動作"},{"start":6143.067,"end":6167.194,"text":"所以說委員為什麼治安法在這裡非常重要是很重要因為擴大我們去集合這些單位所以目前因為這些單位我們現在那個就是對這個剛剛講這個是交通部下面的一個航港局的那個工作我們做治安法我們同時都可以去集合我跟妳講喔一向妳對妳的業務我都非常支持"},{"start":6167.754,"end":6181.399,"text":"但是我對於我們數位部所有的在答覆我是極度不滿也就是推山倒市沒錯他是航港局管他是航運公司管可是最起碼你要給他資訊啊"},{"start":6182.964,"end":6201.082,"text":"不是 這不是你監督了一部分啊我已經發現問題我告訴你這件事情要如何防範趕快未已籌謀亡羊補牢 防範措施這些動作都要做欸我今天還沒有跟你談說這個如何去做補救的欸"},{"start":6201.903,"end":6220.252,"text":"如何去做什麼求產欸因為今天我們也有這種資訊保安這等等所以我還是希望部長真的啊要加油啦沒有指責的意思但是最起碼既然要修華一事到位一事把它修為更為完整"},{"start":6220.832,"end":6247.638,"text":"這是非常重要所以我剛才一開始就給你建議的收集所有資料各委員提出來的不足的部分我們接受然後有所困難的加以解說這樣主角討論才不會浪費時間這個法下來也會更完整更完善達到我們真正定定法律其目的部長所以這點我還是給你一個建議好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":6256.67,"end":6258.312,"text":"謝謝我們請何欣淳委員謝謝趙偉許趙偉我們是不是請這個黃部長請部長"},{"start":6275.598,"end":6294.346,"text":"部長好 那同樣我們也在關心數位發展部有關今天這個資安法要修法那我先關心的有兩件事第一件事我想即時新聞大家部長應該有注意到這個面對數位的威脅那美國的這個聯邦政府國務院現在打算改"},{"start":6294.966,"end":6313.406,"text":"改變他的組織啦 改造他的組織啦所以他的數位治理呢將要設一個新興威脅住親專設AI還有網路安全的事務啦那包括南韓也在動員國家的一個這個網路的防禦力量那所以我也知道呢這個"},{"start":6316.052,"end":6335.944,"text":"我們賴總統他也在這個最近呢一直以來在宣示對於這個資安國家隊的一個組成還有呢對於台灣的資安的風險我們如何的來提升這個不是只有在政府單位包括民間產業面那怎麼去強化社會的一個資安防禦韌性還有呢"},{"start":6342.047,"end":6366.224,"text":"資安的產業的生態系要能夠的健全那如何建築新興科技的防禦技術等等我想這些都是我們數位發展部國人對你們的重大的期許包括總統跟行政院對數位發展部也有很多的任務交付那以賴總統他有提出這個因應關威脅等等包括防"},{"start":6366.824,"end":6374.369,"text":"防止網路攻擊強化資安等等剛剛其他委員很關心這個事情那我們速發部目前的行動檢要重點"},{"start":6376.107,"end":6405.082,"text":"那個就像委員這邊簡報講我們大概就是這個有三個方向目標正在做嘛一個就是當然就資安法是一個最基礎我們希望能夠很快通過之後再來就是說怎麼樣強化這個落實這個資安法的執行包括全社會防禦任性還有我們要讓我們帶我們資安產業能夠在這過程中讓我們資安產業能夠成長甚至部長我想以剛剛其他委員的發言跟我們班長級委員的發言大家對資安法的修法"},{"start":6406.055,"end":6428.677,"text":"都支持但是呢法修過的時候真正重要讓國人有感的是什麼是落實你剛剛講到重點如何落實我們如何強化資安維護國安那強化資安公私協力如何打擊詐騙安我們國家的安全也要安人民國人的信心跟他的財產安全"},{"start":6429.898,"end":6455.951,"text":"所以這一部分如何落實最重要嘛對不對我就舉一個例子以現在我們一般國人最有感的是什麼我們連LINE的詐騙我們都不知道該怎麼辦我們詐騙手法不斷的變形更新現在最近將近以媒體我看到的數字包括我在基層走訪連我自己身邊的親人也一樣都是透過LINE群組"},{"start":6457.091,"end":6479.626,"text":"八成以上LINE的帳號被盜變成了詐騙集團的工具那所以LINE盜用三大陷阱帳號釣魚小朋友參加繪圖繪畫比賽你可不可以幫忙按一下投一票嗎我們這個社區參加這個計畫的評比你可不可以幫我們按個讚然後幫我們怎麼樣怎麼樣這是一個帳號釣魚第二個電話號碼盜用"},{"start":6485.389,"end":6500.763,"text":"盜用的這個電話號碼跟簡訊的認證碼那事實上不是他第三個手法電腦版的盜用要你去掃那個假的QR code那這些都是很新的詐騙手法而且是現在正在進行中"},{"start":6503.14,"end":6520.437,"text":"現在正在進行中包括我們的政府官員包括我聽說連我們之前的這個中央政府的政務委員他可能他的帳號都被盜用還可以跟你LINE一下說好久不見你要是聽到有人LINE給你說好久不見接下來可能說他家發生什麼事要借錢"},{"start":6522.02,"end":6541.317,"text":"LINE的帳號被盜用那我要告訴你現在LINE的帳號被盜用之後呢民眾報警也沒用欸只能等為什麼我就要請部長幫幫忙你又跟我說這是警政署的事跟我沒有關係警政署告訴我們這八成以上的這個整個LINE的帳號被盜的一個詐騙型態"},{"start":6543.619,"end":6554.377,"text":"LINE平台的配合態度消極我用實際的案例有一個來跟我陳情的他的LINE帳號被盜第一個他找不到真人客服"},{"start":6555.455,"end":6573.272,"text":"第二個呢 他傳了這個LINE的官方的問題反應表通報了但是很抱歉客服只在24小時你回覆收到收到了之後呢 很抱歉你可能還要再等個三天五天一個禮拜等到LINE到底能不能給你處理這個假帳號的問題"},{"start":6577.298,"end":6600.464,"text":"部長我可不可以請你啊可不可以再跟這個平台聊聊天喝咖啡聊一下好不好可不可以讓他們的態度積極一點然後呢讓國人有感我已經被詐騙了我被這個LINE的假帳號詐騙我都已經很不準了而且我還心急如焚啊我去報警也沒用啊"},{"start":6602.099,"end":6626.155,"text":"我去報警也沒用啊報告委員 我們的確這是一個問題我們也跟警政署有討論那我們也正在積極跟NINE溝通那這個是不是可以請副財屬說明一下來 請說是 謝謝委員關心這個議題那這個議題我想我們也很關心昨天晚上跟日本的NINE公司開會開到晚上7點多那這個檢警調都有參加那委員關心的客戶問題NINE也嘗試在決定現在從一個禮拜"},{"start":6629.537,"end":6645.985,"text":"100筆提升到200筆的處理的然後釣業的這個流程也是在優化當中所以我們會定期開會來協助民眾解決這個問題拜託啦 跟平台多溝通啦處理的案件量可以再更有效率而且再更簡化優化他的流程啦不然這樣子讓我們的國人"},{"start":6650.367,"end":6669.372,"text":"等等等到第一個報警也沒用第二個他等三天五天等一個禮拜他的這個時間差可能他的LINE的假帳號還不斷的在詐騙其他國人那這個東西事情就像滾雪球般的越滾越大那被詐騙的金額就越來越多你知道嗎所以剛剛"},{"start":6670.812,"end":6677.62,"text":"其他委員在關心不是只有我們國人一般人這樣被詐騙我們現在更擔憂的是什麼很多的國際型的駭客組織鎖定台灣在做網路攻擊剛剛有講到醫療體系很多家的醫院也有很多家的產業"},{"start":6692.156,"end":6706.064,"text":"公司企業那這個已經是有系統性的在攻擊在勒索或者是在其他的這個我們的各自的外洩變成是這個不同的應用方式而且這個是違法的應用"},{"start":6707.626,"end":6734.843,"text":"那這個我覺得在源頭如果說在治安的部分我們速發部沒有提供資源能夠積極的去協助這些醫療院所或是協助這些產業企業那後端就衍生出很多的一個違法的應用那傷及到我們國人的權利跟他可能未來會被詐騙的可能性就會提高部長"},{"start":6735.983,"end":6758.472,"text":"所以呢你剛剛其他委員問你都沒有回答那這麼多家的醫療院所被勒索被攻擊那我們做了什麼那第二個那有些產業企業界我們現在法律規定上市櫃公司要有資安長那如果他不是上市櫃公司的話他被勒索他被這個攻擊那又該怎麼辦"},{"start":6759.858,"end":6779.015,"text":"那個報告委員我們遇到這種事情第一時間我們都有請治安院去協助所以事實上是有進去協助那當然就是說未來我覺得更重要是從源頭就是說希望將來我們有更多的因為法規依據我們可以對這些這個重要的這個不管是醫院或是這些公司做治安的演練跟集合確認"},{"start":6780.256,"end":6795.624,"text":"不會有這樣的一個漏洞,那這才是一個最主要的所以我想,治安法的修法對我們未來整個國家治安防護讓我們有權利去要求研練跟執行,之後還有治安事件的通報等等等要整個大家一起公私協力把這個做好"},{"start":6796.825,"end":6809.619,"text":"我具體的要求部長啦我們速發部可不可以在兩個禮拜之內針對這種系統性的不管是醫療體系的供給或者是我們的產業公司行號的這個供給"},{"start":6811.261,"end":6837.799,"text":"我們除了接收到這個主管機關的一個通報第一個通報的機制要優化要有效率要快速第二個通報之後你們不管是我們訴發部的團隊或者是治安院的人你要給我們一個具體的一個簡化的流程還有你們提供的資源怎麼去做有具體的做法你這個要先公開透明讓國人知道讓產業界知道讓醫療系統知道"},{"start":6841.601,"end":6859.388,"text":"臺灣知道說原來我們政府是真的有系統性有步驟性而且是有方法有技術有資源的在支援他們啦好不好兩個禮拜內我也希望看得到這個具體的一個那個機制我要的是機制好不好好謝謝謝謝何欣存委員先有請許智傑召委"},{"start":6876.664,"end":6902.896,"text":"謝謝主席 我們再請部長好 主委好 部長 辛苦齁騎一載啊 比較累齁不過齁 那個治安大家都很重視的我記得事務發布它你們有一個就是T-RollT-Roll就是"},{"start":6904.383,"end":6923.07,"text":"很多的單位很容易被駭客入侵所以你們自己就做一個政府骨幹的網絡希望可以在這個是一個安靜的安全的環境裡面就避免被其他單位駭客來侵入所以這個部分目前"},{"start":6924.704,"end":6950.089,"text":"我看你們的資料就是47個A機關現在已經除了三個行政院、立法院、教育部、國教院認為他們沒有這個必要那其他的44個都建制完成那這個部分不知道書發部現在的立場就是說其他三個到底是不是需要是不是應該47個一起還是目前這樣子已經算是初步完成"},{"start":6950.879,"end":6979.214,"text":"就是報告委員就是我們在去年就完成44個那今年的重點應該是很多是在地方政府等等就是這些公務機關都能夠納入就是更多機關參與T-Load那這個T-Load的話應該在至少幾個我們所謂的紫霞市應該是在今年會納入那至於這三個機關當初他們說因為沒有業務需要而沒有納入這一塊是不是請那個王市長再說明一下"},{"start":6981.951,"end":7009.708,"text":"因為他們當初沒有需求但是如果說之後他們有需求的話我們會全力的協助他們來一起來包括我們立法院包括行政院都認為他們很安全喔如果他們有被入侵誰負責主要是因為他們沒有做跨機關的資料傳輸這一塊因為TLO本身它防護就是如果你有做跨機關資料傳輸的話在傳輸當中它會做一個安全的防護但是如果沒有做跨機關傳輸資料的需求的話它就不需要借接這個TLOOK 那"},{"start":7010.168,"end":7015.984,"text":"六個縣市政府高雄市跟台北市還在建制其他其他直轄市來"},{"start":7020.523,"end":7042.061,"text":"其他直達室的話幾乎都有在導入當中而且我們會包括我們的T-LORD它會連接到T-LORD它有一個安空的伺服器這個我們都是免費的去提供給縣市來使用然後我們也會有輔導團所以現在依據115年明年對不對可以全部完成嗎可以"},{"start":7044.068,"end":7066.661,"text":"那這個如果都完成之後是不是在政府機關自己資料的傳輸之外駭客要入侵的機會就沒有報委員因為這個是在做資料傳輸的時候駭客沒辦法入侵但是機關本身自己他還是要有一些防護措施讓駭客不會從其他的管道去侵入到他的這個系統裡面"},{"start":7067.987,"end":7096.267,"text":"所以就是說反正這個踢肉啦就是說你們將來政府跟政府之間比如說你可以用在政府之間那有沒有可能像我們現在看到的很多醫院啦很多都已經被駭客入侵的這一些是不是有機會再把他們包括進來那個應該是可以是 有一些是那個比較大型的醫院其實如果他要上踢肉的話我們是可以去幫他們做接接的"},{"start":7096.673,"end":7109.106,"text":"所以這個是不是全部的單位都知道我是覺得這一個如果如你們所設定的就是說我真的這麼好用我真的這麼安全那我就應該更普遍的去用到各機關那這個部分"},{"start":7112.403,"end":7130.54,"text":"因為我不知道假設你們明年一百一十五年全部可以完成這個沒問題然後完成之後相對的個資保護也好資安也好就可以用踢肉就可以涵蓋台灣大部分的機關的資料傳輸就不會受到駭客的影響"},{"start":7131.734,"end":7149.996,"text":"就是資料傳輸過程中不會受影響但是剛剛那個王市長特別有講就是說我們機關本身的系統那個防護要從另外一個就是機盒跟演練去確認他的安全所以這是跟T-Roll沒有直接關係但是會有T-Roll是有幫助不過"},{"start":7150.717,"end":7167.118,"text":"整個機關安全還是要從根本化系統去做防護那這個我們會去做只要他是在我們的所謂的政府機關或者是特殊的這個會工機關我們都會去再做進一步集合確認落實治安的防護好沒關係現在就是說我"},{"start":7167.959,"end":7194.07,"text":"之前因為一直在關心這個踢肉的進度啦所以你們如果說可以照進度完成明年可以完成那這個我也希望說鼓勵你們繼續趕快把這個事情先完成好那另外就是說那個剛剛崑哲偉也有問到你們的員額一直都拚不夠那就是現在蘇化部所做的事情通通覺得人手夠了嗎"},{"start":7194.926,"end":7220.388,"text":"那個報告委員那個我先澄清一點就是說我們現在的那個預算原額是617人現在大概是我們原額真的目前有的人是500也是514多人大概只有大概有八幾%不過還是不夠啦所以我們還在努力的在recruit人 尋找人所以我們當然希望剛剛講有些人尤其是治安的人員我們確實是努力在尋找中"},{"start":7220.968,"end":7235.398,"text":"所以你在看就是第一個我們人員聘用不夠第二個資安署的離職率卻是比一般的公務機關都還要高這有點奇怪就是說你看近五年全國公務人員的離職率是0.79%結果我們資安署的離職率是2.18%高這麼多倍 三倍"},{"start":7243.169,"end":7272.487,"text":"那當然之前有所謂的霸凌事件那現在就是說應該內部署長都已經整理整頓過了嗎會不會再有這種情況這個報告委員就是說我們離職率高有幾個原因一個當然是外面有一些吸引因為他外面給的薪水很高那另外一點就是說因為也是工作比較繁重責任比較就是說責任工作重然後責任大所以"},{"start":7273.688,"end":7289.862,"text":"確實有些人員是因為這樣而離開不過我們剛剛講就是經過當然也發生過霸凌事件經過處理之後尤其我們現在有新的署長上任之後這個問題正在被解決中所以各方面我想在今年會有很大的進步"},{"start":7290.865,"end":7306.82,"text":"OK那簡單的說就是你們之間就是同僚之間啦那跟工作的福利之間請部長也特別注意一下因為治安署的理智力的確是太高了所以這個有待檢討好那踢肉的事情也希望你們盡快把它完成好謝謝"},{"start":7320.37,"end":7335.579,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請區務國務委員好 那等一下那個郵號那個質詢網 我們就先休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席 有請黃部長好 請部長"},{"start":7342.093,"end":7364.38,"text":"好 徐委員好 部長早部長我想我們這一次修法有特別針對中央跟地方的一個聯防機制的一個修法那我想這是一個很這個很進步的一個象徵那也代表我們過去我們這個地方政府不再只是消極的配合而是應該積極參與我們國家治安防線的意願部長應該認同"},{"start":7369.502,"end":7393.963,"text":"但是因為我過去我也在縣市政府服務過那我很清楚知道說過去包含我們縣市政府對於治安這一塊他有一定的這個能量但是往下一層我們很多的鄉鎮公所甚至很多我們中央派駐到地方的一些機關分支機構我相信因為治安的能力我們會很擔心啦因為畢竟過去他們"},{"start":7394.803,"end":7423.709,"text":"對這一塊是比較陌生而且也沒有那麼多的人力可以來支應但是面對我們未來的這個挑戰包含我們現在這個對岸的這個不斷的用這個駭客的一個入侵的方式我想不是只有中央中央的那個聯防機制要落實跟地方的一個串聯的部分更是一個我們實務上很重要的一個挑戰我們不希望出現所謂一個治安的一個破口所以我想未來這個部分"},{"start":7424.87,"end":7444.751,"text":"請教部長我們抒發部是不是已經盤點我們地方政府這個治安的量能包含我們這個所屬相關中央單位在我們各分支機構的一個量能請部長說明一下這個我們現在就是跟治安法這個新的修法就是針對中央跟地方的一個能夠強化治安的防護"},{"start":7445.592,"end":7466.699,"text":"那當然這裡面會有牽涉到人力的問題跟系統的問題那剛剛那個我們在也說明過我們是因為地方的確在資訊能源不只是資安能源資訊也不足所以希望資訊系統向上集中之後管理上會比較容易那這一部分至於說盤點人力部分署長這邊可以再補充一下"},{"start":7467.699,"end":7491.64,"text":"是謝謝委員的關心那我們盤點的人力來講目前所缺的治安人力大概是239人那的確是地方是比較多一點173人那這部分我想也是協助地方積極來增加相關的一些人力那在預算部分來講我們也是盡量如果有一些相關的一些可以來協助地方的一些預算上面的一些身份的補助的話我想我們會盡量來協助地方"},{"start":7492.524,"end":7518.418,"text":"那另外針對這個相關的這些治安的設備部分因為我們也擔心這個地方政府的財力問題那但是這個治安設備如果沒有跟著升級這個達到一定的防護標準恐怕也是形成很大的一個破洞那這部分我們蘇貨部是不是有一個協助的一個機制甚至未來我們怎麼樣定期做一個具體的一個聯防的演練做一個地方跟中央的一個資源串聯的部分是不是有做相關的一個規劃"},{"start":7519.569,"end":7535.4,"text":"很謝謝委員的確是在資安法修法通過之後那我們就可以跟這個地方縣市政府這邊做一些相關的集合還有相關的這些演練聯防等等的這個機制所以我想這個中央跟地方的這個相關資安的防護上面我想會更緊密來合作"},{"start":7537.341,"end":7560.85,"text":"那另外剛剛委員提到的例如說地方在治安的人力上面的確是比較不足那這個部分其實我們在之前也有請各個就是地方成立一個區域的聯防中心像台北台中跟台南還有東部等等的就比較能力強一點的縣市來協助能力比較強的比較弱的一些縣市那整個大家把一個區域的治安聯防的概念把它提升上來"},{"start":7562.515,"end":7577.521,"text":"這點本席還是要請部長這邊能夠防範因為我們也擔心說這個當然我們現在包含我們剛剛召委也大家都在關心我們人力這個缺口的部分那依我們現在看到職場部分本來這個事情是人的位置"},{"start":7578.021,"end":7604.209,"text":"我們要當民間啊一路先預備來做你們這個的工作所以整個在我相信在這個薪資結構甚至一些福利的配套措施上面也必須再強化一下啦沒有好的誘因怎麼會有找到好的人才這部分那另外我想針對這個所謂一個彈性的一個聯訪的一個機制甚至一個共享的一個資安能力的一個機制也必須盡快提出這部分是不是可以在一個月之內順便報告好沒有問題"},{"start":7606.67,"end":7624.724,"text":"好 部長那另外我想我們另外一個地方的挑戰之後我想我們回到中央那這次修法我們提出了一個所謂的包含治安署可以集合總統府 委員甚至國安會等這個上級機關我想這個當然我們很樂見這樣的一個機制的設計跟實務的運作但是會不會因為這樣子的一個"},{"start":7631.269,"end":7656.192,"text":"處理上面我們在整個一個憲政體制的獨立運作還有治安署的這個集合的上面我們是不是有一個更具體的一個做法跟說明這個我想治安法這個很重要就是讓我們能夠對所有的中央的單位能夠做集合不過集合是一種協助啦做演練跟那個那至於說這個運作的細節我請那個治安署再做說明"},{"start":7657.068,"end":7683.324,"text":"是我想謝謝委員這個意見那的確因為治安是一體所以我想因為以往包括這個除了行政院之外的其他四個院跟總統府還有其他的一些單位我們沒有辦法這個在法的這樣的一個授權之下做相關的集合跟協助的工作所以因此才會有一些相關的一些沒有辦法整體來做相關的一些治安的包括情資的分享跟一些聯訪的工作"},{"start":7683.744,"end":7702.092,"text":"那宣法之後我想我們就可以把整個除了行政院之外其他四個院跟總統府大家可以就整合在一起那這樣在治安的不管是聯防協助跟情治的分享上面我想就可以更完整的來推動 以上我想國安的問題是我們大家都很關切啦 大家都要注意那我想"},{"start":7703.473,"end":7725.239,"text":"部長那個我們時代雜誌最近有報導AI安全公司針對這個美國的資訊中心發布說中國掌握了多數的AI中心的關鍵零組件的一個供應鏈那如果這樣子蓄意的干擾可能會造成資訊中心無法取得這個附件的原件那造成癱瘓的一個現象"},{"start":7726.879,"end":7733.547,"text":"而且更可能造成所謂的AI模型外洩的高風險攻擊那不然我們是不是有掌握這樣的一個資訊"},{"start":7735.12,"end":7764.76,"text":"就是那個如果說是AI的這個說算力中心或資訊中心那個當然這裡面有很多這個所謂server的component我們原則上是就是不能用大陸的產品那現在我們國內在這方面的不管是我們的這些電腦業者這個方面我們自己還蠻先進的所以我想這一塊我們不會需要中國的component才能做這些的東西"},{"start":7765.44,"end":7779.588,"text":"部長我想我們都肯定這次的治安法的修法方向那也期待我們藉由這樣的一個修法那能夠落實我們從中央到地方完整的一個安全的國外的防範的一個機制這大家作為來打拚 謝謝謝謝我們請有號委員"},{"start":7799.906,"end":7802.593,"text":"好 謝謝二主席 那也請部長請部長"},{"start":7809.06,"end":7832.837,"text":"吳委員好部長好那延續的剛才許多委員有提到就是目前來講在資安的部分以及AI的部分要如何用AI的包括大家的專業來去來去來去對抗AI的這種詐騙那剛好在前兩天在南投也發生一個實事體那我們看到這個圖片"},{"start":7834.638,"end":7850.936,"text":"這個AI成為大罷免的一個惡霸的工具那民進黨或者是在南投的霸團他們就是用AI來去生成這個新聞稿就是本席的辦公室的新聞稿還直接做了兩則"},{"start":7852.357,"end":7871.863,"text":"第一則叫做我感謝霸團把我第二階段連署通過但是目前現在他們還在收集這連署書但沒關係反正荒腔走板行徑都競逐難輸第二的話就是說我們支持就是他們就偽造的還變成說支持罷免另外一個選區馬文君委員這樣"},{"start":7873.763,"end":7898.198,"text":"那用這樣子的一個深層的新聞稿用GT來去散佈這個假訊息那我想問一下就叫一下部長像這種現在的科技AI的工具它卻成為這樣子運用的一個手段甚至騷擾的手段那在以目前來講在這個委員會中我們來揭露這樣子的一個事件"},{"start":7898.905,"end":7923.912,"text":"那就是在南投的這個霸團他們用這樣子的方式來去抹黑來去捏造還來去騷擾攻擊本席跟馬文君委員那像抒發部隊這樣子的事情第一有掌握嗎第二在地方上能掌握嗎第三像這樣子的部分要如何在數位治理上來去做一個政府的角色扮演"},{"start":7924.409,"end":7948.231,"text":"有委員這個AI的確我先從技術面來談這個事情的確AI最近的進展它可以生成各式各樣的不管是文字或者影音或是相片所以以前都是說眼見為真是眼見不見的為真所以這方面是一個最基本的問題那怎麼去判斷跟偵測也是一直是一個大家在從技術面一直在研究的議題"},{"start":7949.232,"end":7973.971,"text":"所以我想這個裡面當然會牽涉到AI所以目前的確有另外一個政府我們部裡面在推動就是在AI的使用方面像AI基本法這個當然還需要再討論不過要從很多面從AI的使用要做一些當然就是鼓勵AI的成長另外要還換它的一些管理上面的問題所以"},{"start":7974.831,"end":7999.058,"text":"要從這邊去處理那至於說個別的新聞或個別的那個因為這種東西太多了所以我們並沒有特別去追蹤每一個那如果說像類似這種假訊息啊那在當初今天是本就是本席遇到嘛那同樣也是我跟馬文君我也被遇到這樣子的一個捏造的用我們辦公室發新聞稿來去做社群的散佈那在社群的這種"},{"start":7999.878,"end":8016.117,"text":"通報商如何有辦法讓他下架以及說在這個假信息如何來去做一個遏止還包括甚至也要想請教這個調查局還知通安全處處長那像這樣子的一個情況那調查局這邊可以用什麼樣的方式來去啟動調查"},{"start":8018.199,"end":8046.938,"text":"對 那個這種假訊息的部分我跟委員報告我們有幾個機制一個當然就是說我們有所謂的NGO麥克風這樣一個組織就是說遇到這種訊息可以請他們來驗證以後他們會做公佈那我們自己本身也有網路詐騙通報查詢網這個東西有時候但不見得真的假訊息但是有些跟廣告相關跟類似詐騙的訊息這個可以到我們這邊來通報"},{"start":8047.999,"end":8074.044,"text":"那當然就是這個警政署或是法務部這邊也有不同的機制來處理所謂的假訊息我是不是請好那我們請處長是各位委員好有關這個AI Center的假訊息Deepfake的部分那調查局是有建立一定的檢測的模式那我們也有相關的檢測工具只要這個網路上有相關的這個訊息出現我們經過檢測是"},{"start":8076.365,"end":8090.606,"text":"身為 AI 生成的話那只要有違法譬如說違反懸罷法那我們就會去立案偵辦報請地檢署的那個在六都的地檢署他都有那個 AI 生成的這個"},{"start":8091.627,"end":8106.205,"text":"假訊息的犯罪調查中心我們會去細數偵辦好 謝謝因為他這個也直接在他們的幹部群就直接把這個GPD他們在生成的過程跟證據也都有修在上面那謝謝署長那同樣的說今天來講對於"},{"start":8108.187,"end":8131.199,"text":"這樣子的惡霸包括有時候發現這樣子就是一個詐騙的過程今天他們在向許多人搜尋罷免惡霸攔尾的連署書結果今天的手段上面還就直接用AI的工具來去做偽造還包括偽造委員辦公室的新聞稿將來就有可能偽造成影音跟圖像"},{"start":8132.179,"end":8153.433,"text":"那在這裡還是也謝謝剛才部長的解釋跟包括我們調查局這邊的一個說明那也希望說在這個AI的治理過程中當然能夠讓我們的技術或是防治上更為提升那另外本期在這裡也再次也提到這個資安長的這個制度目前的話都是由這個副首長來去做接任或是適當人員"},{"start":8154.434,"end":8183.593,"text":"但是本席還是因為時間有限那請就是部內這邊提供一下目前各機關在這個擔任這個資安長是副首長的這個比例跟執行率那以及說是委外或是有適當人員的這個執行率大約比例是多少以及他的對於這個包括資安的專業掌握程度還是多少那這個比例希望能夠提供給本席辦公室因為本席在這裡還是要特別的去呼籲強調一下"},{"start":8184.454,"end":8210.868,"text":"那當然說以目前先行法規上各機關來講必須要設置這個資安長的部分在資安法第11條但是如果說像許多的機關他們的資安長本身對於資安就沒有非常了解甚至概念上也不夠熟悉那當這個資安長的話是不是能夠有效的讓機關內的這個資訊安全能夠去做一個了解甚至處理甚至平行的溝通"},{"start":8212.789,"end":8240.36,"text":"當然說很多事情還是要回到速發部去請教那只是說這樣子的一個制度上是希望治安長不是虛設的反而是實際上能夠有功能那在國外的話其實在業界的治安長他們的制度其實相對來講幾乎都會有資訊背景或是一定時數的訓練那我是希望說在目前國內的現行制度大概依法規治安法第11條是必須要設置那如何能夠真正的強化在每一個機關"},{"start":8241.52,"end":8261.33,"text":"還有的這個專業我相信還是要麻煩部長不過這個委員簡單的說明一下就是因為那個我們說因為治安長要做跨單位的協調他一定要足夠的所有的管理的權力所以才會使用才會目前很多是由副首長來擔任那當然副首長在裡面我們會有很多的訓練或是會議"},{"start":8262.851,"end":8284.945,"text":"當然也會有幕僚單位來提供協助所以目前這樣一個機制目前還好就是說在我們的這個重點還是在管理所以管理那個管理的人一定要有這樣的power所以我想重點是就是要有足夠的權力的人去當任這個治安長這個技術反而是比較容易解決因為可以有幕僚跟相關的這個訓練可以再補強這樣"},{"start":8286.491,"end":8297.923,"text":"一些問題我們之後再來探討因為就是權力之間的部會業務的連結歸連結但是專業跟本身都有問題第一時間的掌握那我覺得也是相對重要謝謝現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8323.001,"end":8323.021,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":8347.111,"end":8347.511,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8370.489,"end":8372.47,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳"},{"start":8397.783,"end":8397.963,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8423.413,"end":8424.435,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳"},{"start":8932.677,"end":8961.575,"text":"好 現在開始開會 我們請林俊憲委員好 感謝主席 同時邀請我們速發部黃部長請部長部長好 部長好部長 我根據你們的資通安全網路月報就三月份啦"},{"start":8962.608,"end":8973.561,"text":"我們政府機關的聯防情資有七萬五千多件就是大概嘗試要攻擊我們網路的七萬多件"},{"start":8975.871,"end":9001.568,"text":"跟去年同期比較每個月都超過兩成的成長也就是說我們受到網路攻擊的嚴重度可以說是逐月都提升了那攻擊裡面第一名是入侵類的攻擊37%那第二類是資訊的收集那第三就是嘗試要突破例如進入沒有授權的主機"},{"start":9003.271,"end":9015.684,"text":"我看我們很多單位都有提供類似的報告我看國安局那國安局的報告說我們在2024年去年平均一天受到網路的攻擊大概有240萬次"},{"start":9017.833,"end":9031.178,"text":"那2023年一天平均是120萬等於成長百分之百增加一倍這是國安局的報告2023年一天120萬次去年2024年一天變為240萬次那另外國安團隊就是對於駭客案件就是"},{"start":9044.657,"end":9052.742,"text":"可能是被攻破的有900多件比2023年的752件也成長大概兩成所以可見我們現在面對的狀況是越來越嚴厲那其中攻擊我們什麼呢第一個來自中國的攻擊也佔80%"},{"start":9068.799,"end":9078.365,"text":"主要供給我們都是來自中國的駭客那供給我們主要都是一些基礎設施通訊傳播業、交通及國防這是最嚴重的"},{"start":9080.524,"end":9097.321,"text":"另外我再看一個微軟的報告幾乎每一份報告都是同樣的結論同樣的趨勢就是台灣受到攻擊的次數還有嚴密的嚴重度都越來越高然後主要都是來自中國"},{"start":9098.582,"end":9115.714,"text":"像微軟的報告說 中國高度鎖定了台灣而且他有特別提到 微軟說是以台灣的企業成為中國的高優先攻擊目標再來就是情報收集 國安機構等等這個蠻符合部長的報告裡面部長你說 現在我們的基礎設施"},{"start":9125.02,"end":9148.432,"text":"都會受到攻擊那中國不只攻擊台灣中國也攻擊其他國家例如關島中國為什麼攻擊關島很可能就是要癱瘓住在關島的美軍如果萬一台海有事他可以癱瘓關島的美國駐軍來阻止美方來援助台灣"},{"start":9150.673,"end":9173.034,"text":"這個大概在彭博社國際媒體上也都有報也都有報導當然再來請教部長就是我們現在的國安所謂的定義的基礎關鍵基礎設施是不是大概有我看有8加1第一個就交通再來醫療水資源再來政府機關"},{"start":9174.435,"end":9188.488,"text":"銀行金融業高科技園區能源產業通訊傳播現在最近又加上一個糧食所以大概有九大的關鍵基礎設施那其中"},{"start":9190.202,"end":9205.189,"text":"我們現在要希望更納入民間的相關機關企業來否則以目前的法令政府是沒有權利去對民間的企業做治安集合是不是這樣子"},{"start":9206.169,"end":9233.639,"text":"對就是所以這個治安法需要一個很重要就是我們納入所謂的特殊公務機關那這個就包括這個就可以由各目的事業主管機關去定義哪些是他們認為重要比如說是supplier他是提供設備的人或者是說一些執行一些服務的機關也都的那個一門包括民間公司也可以被納入特殊非公務機關來進行查核一樣的治安的檢測跟查核"},{"start":9235.187,"end":9261.32,"text":"那部長你知不知道根據在暗網就是網路上一些暗網做一些非法教育買賣的地方暗網外一些的網站公佈資料台灣大概有八個受害者包括亞洲大學部長知道這是吧 亞洲大學醫院馬街另外有一個我看那個中文名稱英文名稱翻過來好像是華城電機"},{"start":9263.598,"end":9287.584,"text":"再來是張機 張化經濟學院還有柯定 喬山甚至最近在中壢有一個長盛這個應該是也是個醫院也受到攻擊而且攻擊以後他們的肉被人拿走的個資甚至在暗網上也有在賣布董知道吧有看到報告那我看這個狀況會有越多"},{"start":9290.413,"end":9314.269,"text":"對 所以我才講說因為我們必須強化我們治安的防護才會說我們在這個時候必須馬上要修改我們的治安法讓我們能夠去對這些關鍵技術設施做做集合跟治安的演練來確認他們的治安防護是能夠到位但是過去啦 過去就是說政府我們對於自己公務機關的網路攻擊大概都有注意也有專業的一個報告統計"},{"start":9316.61,"end":9344.269,"text":"但是對關鍵基礎設施尤其一些民間企業卻很少有像我剛練給你聽的現在關鍵基礎設施越來越多因為8加1有9項那你如果沒有這個修法的速度要快我們就可以整體把重要的一些民間企業也納進來甚至做一些資訊安全的輔導 稽查等等相關的工作"},{"start":9345.718,"end":9371.605,"text":"那部長你的看法呢我們現在在治安法的修法裡面還有一個就是說遇到治安事件他們要立即通報所以我們會更掌握清楚掌握那個目前的這個治安的剛剛講攻擊的事件的發生讓我們可以很快的通報各個單位能夠其實馬上加強防護所以這些新的治安法讓每個機關他負責他不但是要被接而且他負責通報像我就用民間統計的"},{"start":9372.665,"end":9384.354,"text":"因為政府沒有在統計關鍵基礎設施受攻擊的狀況一般 現在但民間有統計過啦我用民間統計的給你看啦科學園區啊被拿到外洩21萬筆啦政府機關有4萬筆醫院有1萬3千筆啦"},{"start":9387.876,"end":9416.886,"text":"那關鍵基礎設施哪些設施外洩比例最高第一個是通訊傳播業第二個是醫院第三是政府機關我認為這個法令修訂以後一個比較重要的就是你要讓這些民間企業的員工也要了解你的工作你所在的這家企業是屬於關鍵基礎設施的所以他本身也要有治安意識我們甚至可以輔導這些企業你必須對他的相關那個從業人員要有一定的一種教育"},{"start":9423.747,"end":9438.951,"text":"另外就是禁用中國製造的一些相關的電子產品我們目前法律是沒有明確規範只有行政命令那希望在這裡面也把它提升到法律的位階就是從中國製作跟資訊安全有相關的這個"},{"start":9441.011,"end":9463.383,"text":"一定要我們把它法制化 把它提高為法律因為國人親自看到的大概就是美國2022年佩洛西當時美國眾議院議長到台灣來當時中國駭客侵入了超商還有台鐵的電子看板我想讓國人應該清楚可以看到了其實我們的治安防護其實還是必須要有很大的一個加強"},{"start":9464.924,"end":9472.709,"text":"好 我們希望在相關的修法 部長應該多跟立委們來進行相關的溝通 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝 我們請林林澤委員"},{"start":9496.257,"end":9499.442,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們事務部黃部長請部長黃部長"},{"start":9508.243,"end":9527.63,"text":"你從去年的 你是五月份嘛 520之後跟新政府團隊來入閣的請教一下這幾年有什麼變化是不是新舊部長有什麼不同的一個看法首先我們在去年預算中心針對112年你們數位部針對以來抽測"},{"start":9533.112,"end":9549.847,"text":"抽測了我們大概15到24個公務機關就來協助也是來了解現在一般的公務的機關它到底治安的品質如何所以在112年的時候主要檢測的方向分成技術檢測跟實地檢測那這時候在檢測的過程其中第一項技術檢測"},{"start":9556.471,"end":9569.685,"text":"有15個機關其中有13個機關它連基本的未落實電腦安全的更新update都沒做這是當年這是其中一個就檢測的一個項目所以比例高達86%缺失的機關第二個實地檢測也針對24個公務機關"},{"start":9578.274,"end":9591.614,"text":"其中有17個也出現了治安上面的一個漏洞所以缺失率達到70%這個是立法院的你們提供給立法院112年的資料不是我個人收集的然後我們"},{"start":9592.967,"end":9615.076,"text":"再請教113年也結束了請教113年呢狀況如何呢因為通常這種KPI每一年比較數據管理是你比較容易了解我也比較清楚當然這有兩個部分對於舊的問題如何改善要去追蹤譬如說這些被檢查過的公務機關有問題了不能擺明還要去"},{"start":9615.856,"end":9630.401,"text":"review看能不能改善這個部分是一個部分我跟你們調資料你們有說持續去追蹤那我們再問113年對於新的一些公務機關在展開第二波因為公務機關這麼多112年只有15個嘛你們新的機關"},{"start":9634.86,"end":9647.048,"text":"有沒有去做那到底是什麼狀況部長你說一下對於新的機關做了幾個他的新的技術檢測跟實力檢測的比例缺失比例如何"},{"start":9648.186,"end":9671.927,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛委員所關心的這個集合結果那113年我們也是一樣也是40個的這個政府機關坐實地的這個集合那集合的情況就如委員這邊所提到的我們有一些包括在這個整個技術上面的一些檢測跟相關的一些方面我們發現是有些提升那有些缺點的確是有些要再改進的地方"},{"start":9673.448,"end":9693.317,"text":"蘇長請問一下我們這邊列的這你給我的嘛三項明顯進步事項跟顯著提升有兩項那是他比較基礎是什麼因為提升嘛就表示他原本在這裡提升了你是針對於112年這些檢查過的公務機關再去了解他有明顯的進步是不是"},{"start":9693.957,"end":9705.38,"text":"跟委員報告我們並沒有相同 我們並不是在做比較我們是針對不同的機關做集合所以113年所集合單位並不是112年的單位那你們113年不同的機關你們有去集合幾個機關40個40個機關嘛4個機關那技術檢測的缺失率大概是多少"},{"start":9720.568,"end":9748.747,"text":"因為技術的檢測其實就是有一些需要再改善的地方啦就是剛剛委員所提到的我們包括說像我們對這個網易啦網路啦資料庫啦還有一些核心的系統等等的我們都要做一些檢測那每個機關我們檢測完之後就會提供他檢測的一些相關缺失的地方好啦那個部長署長我覺得好有點奇怪了何必呢都有進步嘛就缺失率現在一展現出來今年只有32%哇"},{"start":9750.809,"end":9769.99,"text":"大家給你掌聲啊有這麼辛苦嗎我跟你講你這樣的等於說讓一件事情任何人要從KPI數據上面去比較你把它複雜化你把它倒過來你做數據的人做數位的人把它倒過來變一些形容詞來去講因為有什麼有進步有提升"},{"start":9770.811,"end":9786.953,"text":"我就覺得我是希望我就不想耽誤這時間在這裡我希望113年能夠具體化一個數據出來是好是壞你們自己知道也大家都知道逐步改善就好了好不好部長能不能把它一致化再提供數字給委員"},{"start":9787.728,"end":9811.202,"text":"好的 第二個部長這個資安的人力荒是讓你們成立一個比較新成立的一個機關要搶人第二個呢你們又要非常專業的人其實沒有很容易啦我們都知道但是你們在訂的相關的一些法規就像今天又要修法嘛那修完的法你們訂的一些規則就是要落實嘛不然訂一些法是不是給民眾看的所以我們自己要先要來落實嘛相關的"},{"start":9812.122,"end":9831.678,"text":"一些機關他必須要有專職的治安人力這是你們的一個規定而且也是你們的業管範圍但我們看得到一樣112年112年中央對於應有的你們法令規定的還缺六十六人占整個中央機關應有的專職治安人員大概缺8.4%看起來不到10%地方比較嚴重"},{"start":9839.884,"end":9867.693,"text":"地方確認23.1%這是112年的數據那接下來我們又跟應該是治安署吧說那113年呢113年我覺得要進步嘛就一樣你給我看一個數據減少了對不對優化了問題收斂了大家會給你肯定嘛數據就會說話就問你們你知道怎麼說嗎不知道部長知不知道你們跟我們回答說113年的資料"},{"start":9868.673,"end":9878.011,"text":"還在填報作業中14年的4月你們一個講究效率的你跟我講還在填報我覺得好奇怪你知道嗎"},{"start":9880.273,"end":9905.631,"text":"一個樓盤一個坑到底多少人你一個時間點去年的12月31號截止還有人就有人沒人就沒有人嘛上個月補的不算怎麼會統計不出來就是所以跟剛剛一樣拜託一下好不好就是說這一定統計出來的這個部分你要看我也要看大家治安的一個各單位從中央到地方有沒有做好這個我也希望部長去注意一下"},{"start":9906.431,"end":9928.203,"text":"再來就是既然缺人缺這麼多我們看到左下角這個我們直區就提報現在這個針對一一三年公務人員有新開缺高考三級就特別之通安全的內科也開缺了那有各地報缺因為我們看到報缺的數額也非常低"},{"start":9929.344,"end":9955.682,"text":"部長你們回答就一句話是不是大家到底中央地方在不在乎資安專業人力這個事情你的感覺報告委員我們這個資安人員的任用有幾個管道一個當然就是從所謂轉職系就是說從既有的公務人員在做訓練希望他們轉成資安人員那這個大概會原來預定目標是1000人那目前已經訓練了兩三百人那預計今年至少會有450個人"},{"start":9956.883,"end":9980.911,"text":"那當然就是因為這樣關係所以直接從高考進來目前各地方各個單位提報人是比較少不過我們會加強宣傳也就是說這個東西這個這種新的管道應該也是一個很好的一個管道來對我們資安能力的方這個資安能力方能夠有補助所以這個我們會加強宣導然後希望也許未來在這方面的這個高考這個資安通安全類科的"},{"start":9981.471,"end":10006.033,"text":"的職缺能夠多一點不過我們現在還是主要是靠內部的所謂的資安人員的這個轉職系的一些訓練目前是以這個方式在進行好 部長 署長我語重心長因為所謂資安嘛就從另外一個角度影響資安的人跟物還有softwareAI它的一個進步的速度是用飛的我感覺你們在處理這些事情每一年我在問同樣的問題"},{"start":10007.034,"end":10024.859,"text":"我不敢這樣講說你們是用爬的你們就是正常在走我都不知道這個仗要怎麼打我是希望說能做的中央地方積極做因為你們要面對一個挑戰的變化是那種未來你們要把精力花在這裡最後剛剛我們好幾位委員也特別說過"},{"start":10026.638,"end":10040.653,"text":"上次跟你見面 我也問你嘛你說因為私人的企業因為上次說有很多遭到了駭客入侵把資料都竊走了那我今天特別講說因為就是我們中壢中壢長盛醫院遭害8萬病例外洩那他要錢嘛反正他現在駭客也好像上網"},{"start":10049.642,"end":10069.62,"text":"按網去賣那真的假的我們不清楚我是覺得你們要去協助像你看從馬街醫院張金醫院甚至亞太附屬醫院到現在長盛醫院有地方的這個醫學級教學醫院教學中心也有地方級的一個區域或者地區醫院"},{"start":10071.161,"end":10098.184,"text":"我是覺得你們不能夠說這是私人的問題你們要有一個真的要協助的機制你上次也答應我說你們要研究要怎麼樣去協助你不是管理他但是我有一套來協助就好像說有公司被詐騙那警察機關說我沒有管這家公司你不要這樣問我回答嘛他趕快弄個SOP 你想方設法怎麼樣阻止"},{"start":10099.245,"end":10116.271,"text":"讓你受傷受到最少因為這種東西蠻可怕的有一些私人的那些企業買賣的甚至機票的他大概就是個資外洩已經很頭痛了這個東西個人病例你知道嗎如果我能夠沒有經過允許拿到個人病例那是一個"},{"start":10117.071,"end":10135.75,"text":"更嚴重的犯罪的一個行為可是你這樣包括了個人的一個病例不是個資之外都被賣所以我是建議你在你們資安責任等級分級的一個表中分級表中我們的這個所謂教學級的醫院"},{"start":10138.202,"end":10166.681,"text":"這個部分教學級的醫院是分成特A級嗎是不是A級A級是不是教學中心是特A級A級單位因為A級主要是公立嘛公立的拜託這私立的是什麼意思你防公立的哇幾萬筆因為是很重要的醫療那私立的這你們特A級不能不管不能不管報告委員我們會跟衛護部合作把這個一些"},{"start":10167.381,"end":10170.203,"text":"我希望你們對醫院這件事情跑起來好不好不要慢慢走 謝謝"},{"start":10195.391,"end":10208.258,"text":"謝謝 我們請黃建豪委員好 謝謝主席 主席我們請數位部黃部長請部長"},{"start":10216.463,"end":10238.977,"text":"部長好部長我想今天我們討論的是這個資通安全管理法修法的問題那我想這個有一個條文我想跟這個部長來討論一下我想除了院版之外有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考包含說國務卿委員提的這個版本裡面的13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品把它入法"},{"start":10240.057,"end":10260.95,"text":"這個是本來就從你們這個13條從數位部訂定的這個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則而來我想這13條的來源在這邊甚至從你們這個數位部訂定的這個規範只是因為現階段我想這現行對於這相關的特定廠商的特定品牌有這個限制是用所謂的法規命令"},{"start":10261.61,"end":10280.485,"text":"那是不是有機會把它提升到這個母法的程式那詳細的這個規定我再把它定於執法當中會不會比較妥適比如說今年二月的時候我想這個我們卓院長有提到說宣布這公共機關全面禁用Deep-Seek這個AI來確保我們的國家自動安全但是"},{"start":10281.55,"end":10309.883,"text":"之所以要禁用公共機關禁用Deep Seek的原因就是因為他們可能有擔心說這個很多資料會上傳給中共讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊那如果既然是這樣子那有這樣子的事情發生那是不是應該把我剛剛提到的以剛剛盧君委員那13條應該把它訂到法律的位階跟層次而不是只是純單純用這個命令來做你院本來有沒有辦法採納這個這樣的做法報告委員本來那個"},{"start":10310.923,"end":10337.098,"text":"我們就是把原來的行政命令變成立法 放在法就是危害國家資產安全產品至於說它的定義因為這個產品的變化跟那個非常快我們沒辦法給到一個非常清楚的定義因為我們只能從審查跟檢驗跟最後的通報去做隨時的update如果一個產品而且現在有可能是稀產地也有可能這公司原來不屬於中國公司後來賣給中國公司"},{"start":10337.878,"end":10358.556,"text":"中國公司有太多可能變化所以沒有辦法定的很清楚說什麼樣叫不行但是我們是會隨時的去審查跟那個通報機制就是發現這個產品有問題我們馬上就通報然後就可以再由這個將根據這個治安法來禁用這些這些設備或產品部長當然就是說"},{"start":10359.657,"end":10376.007,"text":"產品不斷推陳出新啦所以是不是隨時要變動隨時更新那個清單那當然是用授權的那我現在要確認說像剛剛我提到這個第43我們格魯遜維提的第43條他把這個公共機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品的這個文字"},{"start":10377.489,"end":10402.204,"text":"明文的這個條文放進母法裡面原版現在有沒有放進去嗎 放了沒對 報告委員就是說基本上我們care是使用的因為採購採購這個東西就像講因為你買了一個公司原來這個公司不屬於中國公司就是說不能只看採購的剛公司因為公司有可能會就是中資會入國所以我說採購最主要是後面的使用"},{"start":10402.884,"end":10416.74,"text":"所以只要使用我們先定義我們先有個機制來定義什麼叫做來找出危害國家製造產品的是有哪些然後再去限制它的使用定義是執法啊對我來說對應該定義是後面的事情嘛那我現在講的說"},{"start":10417.961,"end":10436.939,"text":"你們的條文裡面就是真正的院版條文最後出來了因為現在還在討論嘛那只是說院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的這個把它明文假設你說好採購沒有那下載安裝使用咧我們是使用跟下載跟安裝但是採購沒有在上面好那這樣有共識啦這樣OK院版有嗎"},{"start":10437.8,"end":10454.361,"text":"原版原版要使用有使用而已那下載安裝呢你要使用前提要下載安裝啊你要前面就先阻止啦因為原版有使用下載跟那比如說比如這樣講以Deep-Seek為例我們就舉具體案例Deep-Seek你當然沒有採購它嘛但是"},{"start":10455.903,"end":10478.299,"text":"我們的就是公務機關不得使用也不得下載嘛那我就說你就是應該把這個所謂下載跟使用下載跟安裝本身就先放在魔法裡面那當後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例那個是當然你們隨時去滾動檢討啦case by case對啊好不好這個部分我提醒一下應該把它放到這個條文裡面要增加就是安裝跟下載這個部分再來提到這個"},{"start":10480.038,"end":10493.672,"text":"現行的條文裡面院版裡面的條文裡面有講到說第四條提升自動安全政府要提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民的自動安全意識所以這邊的重點在提升全民之安不是針對產業而已因為"},{"start":10495.794,"end":10512.592,"text":"如果按照現行法令我們看起來很像其實相關的法律都在從這個產業面來出手產業面在關注產業面但是對於真正的全民我們剛剛提到全民的定義我們看這個數據你看詐騙的部分各自大約24%然後購物詐騙15% 企業冒名13%還有我們國內法卡銀行詐欺的通報金額也是逐年在"},{"start":10518.393,"end":10529.53,"text":"整體比例是上升的狀況就比如說全民對於治安的這個意識好像不太足夠那當然你們把母法裡面訂的這一條說要主動來全民可是你從真正在執行面上"},{"start":10530.95,"end":10551.157,"text":"比較像是從這個企業 從產業的角度在你們執行的時候但問題是從這個教育 國中小高中教育等等的部分好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為那我不知道數位部隊這事情怎麼處理因為公司大家要可能為了公司的這個資產要保護都沒問題嘛"},{"start":10552.898,"end":10567.474,"text":"但問題是今天大家為什麼有這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易被騙的騙到手那麼容易的在新的通訊軟體裡面自己把自己的個資提供出去那這就代表我們全民的資產意識就不足啊那你這個條文"},{"start":10569.376,"end":10590.312,"text":"第四條訂了這樣子的東西但後續的相關的做法裡面好像沒有特別提到這個事情部長就是我們那個原來就是在第四條有講說我們要做一個單是人才培育嘛對然後再來就是說我們會加強一些跟產學研的合作然後就用這個產學研合作跟國際交流然後再來就是對這個有一些這個規範"},{"start":10593.795,"end":10605.626,"text":"不過就是不管怎樣就是我們會從教育面從這個推動裡面再去加強全民對治安對部長我的意思就是這樣你們第四條的確寫了剛剛是1234嘛那你看1234我們講真的1234針對的基本上都是所謂專業人才"},{"start":10610.771,"end":10637.745,"text":"好 針對產業界那我今天講的因為我們今天這個是要提升全民資通安全意識它的精神是在全民所以不是只有產業因為你這個專業人才培育啦然後產學合作啦 國際交流多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討的什麼國際交流他也不會是專業人才像我以本席為例我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對於資安的意識跟保護"},{"start":10638.846,"end":10661.682,"text":"因為在這個願滿條文裡面你們是沒有提到一般民眾的你們真的比較像是專業人才所以我要說在這個部分的話應該要去針對全民去做個提升不能只是針對專業部分而已啊部長我們這個委員的建議很好我們在我想我們在這邊在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識我們會有一些方案來協助包括一些宣導或是一些在利用"},{"start":10662.122,"end":10683.642,"text":"我們具體建議啦 你們應該還要去找教育部啦教育部到底我們的教材裡面 我們在平常的學校 校園裡面或是說像我們的那個叫什麼 那個地方叫社會局當然我們就內政部等等的各單位針對長照 針對長輩很多的地方這部分都應該去做 而不是只有"},{"start":10684.873,"end":10699.426,"text":"學不是只有專業人才就是學校從小啊以及我們長輩這份他們可能對於這個科技更新的速度沒這麼快的部分應該有一處理因為其實被詐騙很多是這些人啊好不好謝謝委員建議我們會再看部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝我們請廖先祥委員"},{"start":10721.035,"end":10726.305,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請我們黃部長跟蔡署長請部長還有蔡署長"},{"start":10732.087,"end":10759.227,"text":"兩位午安今天討論到這個治安法嘛那一個法令訂定之後很重要的就是落地嘛那落地裡面就是執行就是我們的法令裡面有明確的規範到我們一些公務機關或者是非公務機關的特定機關必須要有自通安全的專責人員那我們有評估過在這個法令通過之後會衍生出多少的一個自通安全人員需要去補"},{"start":10761.191,"end":10785.761,"text":"不含現在缺的啦,就是未來衍生新增的需求我們有一個統計,大概兩百幾百萬謝謝委員,就剛剛所提到的部分因為這個目前我們對治安人員的專職人員的配置公共機關的話是A級機關要配置四位專職人員B級是兩個,C級是一個那D跟E他可以不需要配置,因為他比較簡單這個是目前,那目前所缺人治安專職人員大概是239人"},{"start":10787.952,"end":10804.537,"text":"新增的需要新增的239人需要新增含非公務機關如果說未來如果是新增加所管的非公務機關的話可能會比這個還更多所以二三級是公務機關"},{"start":10807.806,"end":10835.047,"text":"12345目前是分ABCDE剛剛您講的就是公務機關嘛239那非公務的你們還沒有統計出來現在的法令沒有去要求非公務機關要設置專職人員那新法通過之後就會要求那個所以我才講落地嘛就是法令通過之後落地之後非公務機關的特殊機關需要多少人你們現在還沒統計出來目前還沒有統計出來因為法還沒有通過"},{"start":10835.948,"end":10861.534,"text":"你們應該會算法過了之後要多少人你們要先算出來才知道這法定的有沒有辦法實際去執行因為他們目前有些機關他們其實都有配置專職的治安人員這個他們也有配置那我們還沒有去精算說新法通過之後目前會缺多少你們應該是要早一點去算好需要多少人然後之後才會像現在既有的缺多少然後未來新增的需求是多少你才能夠去協助機關補足"},{"start":10862.614,"end":10886.185,"text":"那我確認一下機關的資通安全的專職人員他可能會去兼其他的業務嗎還是他就專職在資安的業務如果是專職的話就是說他只能做資安的工作那專職的話他就可以做其他資訊的工作等等的就是資通訊相關的工作那可能資安只是他工作的一個部分對"},{"start":10887.692,"end":10914.999,"text":"那這個討論到資安的這個部分其實它有點像是網路的一個警察的一個概念那每個機關可能配置幾個人那每個機關的大小業務性質不太一樣那其實可能也會衍生出同工不同酬的一些問題你們有沒有考慮過既然它是一個類似警察的一個概念因為現在像是我們社會的警察我們像立法院或者是其他單位有需要"},{"start":10916.604,"end":10943.77,"text":"這個安全防護的時候我們會請警政署協助嘛就會派出人員那如果說是比較沒有那麼高強度的一個維安需求的話機關他可能就是委託保全公司來做一個基本的一個管理那我覺得網路安全的部分也有點類似的概念如果說是我們比較需求比較低的那他就可能委託資安公司來做維安管理那比較需求的那目前我們的狀態是每個機關都要去自己設置人員我們有考慮過"},{"start":10944.97,"end":10965.343,"text":"我們的資安署就類似警政署這樣的概念來統籌所有需要的人員因為我們資安人員不一定要在現場吧資安人員原則上都是在網路上面操作啊那每個機關去派駐的一個意義好像相對於警政機關來講的話更不需要在每個機關裡面去派駐我們都討論過這件事情"},{"start":10965.856,"end":10994.627,"text":"是 跟委員報告大概就是兩個角度去想就是一個聯防的角度就是剛剛委員講的可能有一些機關它是低級或一級或是西級它的這個防護需求沒有那麼的需求那麼高那我們透過像一些聯防的機制來協助這個部分例如說我們盡量是用像GSN像政府機關來講GSN這邊政府的網路裡面的一些相關的一些攔阻或是防護部分來協助他們這個部分那是透過誰"},{"start":10995.387,"end":11016.403,"text":"你說的聯防我們在治安院這邊我們跟這個訴訟室這邊有一個接生那這邊可以對政府的網路做一些防護的一些相關的措施所以我們這邊有一批人然後可以協助比較對技術上面的協助對對對就是有什麼問題可以協助他們是需要的時候另外一個是目前的法令規定裡面就是說假設你機會裡面沒有"},{"start":11017.884,"end":11026.83,"text":"可以聘到足夠的專職人員的話你可以用委外人員暫時來替代那這個也可以補足目前治安人力不足的一個需求"},{"start":11027.495,"end":11052.992,"text":"對 那我想說就是我們有沒有辦法像警慎署這樣子把所有的資安人員都我們就編列在我們資安署裡面然後協助各個機關來做資通訊的一個安全的維護不管是我們人類的調度還是我們相關人員的待遇編制工作時數等等的都在同一個部會裡面相對起來它是比較會穩定然後你可以跨機關去支援譬如說你剛剛講某一個機關四個人"},{"start":11054.933,"end":11075.565,"text":"那可能突然遭遇到大量攻擊的時候四個人不一定有辦法負荷嘛那如果說我們通通在資安署裡面的話那我們就可以很輕鬆地去調派啊我剛剛要請教的就是這個東西謝謝委員 這個的確是一個蠻好的一個方向啦就是說假設人力可以集中的話不管是教育訓練 專業技能的提升我覺得這是一個蠻好的一個想法"},{"start":11075.965,"end":11087.893,"text":"但是因為這整個治安人力一條邊涉及到人事人種等等相關的一些法令規定的這個體制那後續是不是容我們在後續研究那也要跟人事總書這邊在相關的溝通對所以這個當然還牽扯到我們人事組織法的一個問題所以說署長這邊也是認為如果說能夠一條邊由我們這邊治安署統一來做一些管理跟協助機關做治安安全的話"},{"start":11101.341,"end":11117.055,"text":"會是一個比較有效率的一個方式嗎對 這個同意 但這個確實牽涉到組織法的調整好 沒關係 如果說我們的目標一致的話那我希望說後續我們需要提出修法的部分還是需要跟跨級官員的部分讓大家一起來努力 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 我們請陳樹越委員"},{"start":11135.016,"end":11139.424,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席要請黃部長還有蔡署長請部長蔡署長委員長"},{"start":11149.033,"end":11163.468,"text":"今天委員會針對資安管理法的修正條文進行詢問剛剛也很多委員都有關心到根據國安局公布的資料台灣在2024年受到罔工、駭工的統計數字"},{"start":11170.202,"end":11193.35,"text":"比2023年多了兩倍就是2024年台灣是遭受超過8億次的網路攻擊所以平均每日有240萬次是2023年的兩倍之多那我們也看到這個國安局的一個統計裡面就是我們遭受攻擊的這個被攻擊的目標就是都是以這個基礎的關鍵設施為主遭受這個攻擊"},{"start":11197.972,"end":11211.881,"text":"這個看起來也是真的是蠻嚴重的所以就這個部分就是請教我們抒發部就是我們有關這個關鍵基礎設施的一個資安防護我們抒發部大概有哪一些的做法"},{"start":11212.925,"end":11230.659,"text":"通常遇到這種政府單位或是關鍵基礎設施provider我們會做治安的一些攻防演練 集合當然他們要做一些通報 情緒分享所以從這方面我們是對關鍵基礎建設來做一些治安的強化"},{"start":11231.44,"end":11246.742,"text":"當然這裡會因為關鍵基礎建設有很多是跨部就屬於不同部會所以我們會跟部會之間有一些合作比如說有水電是在經濟部然後醫院在衛福部這些我們都會一起來做這些治安的合作跟防護"},{"start":11247.683,"end":11264.851,"text":"是那就是基礎關鍵設施的一個防護然後很重要那當然就是有關這個資安的一個維護計畫也是非常的重要所以我們看到資安法裡面就是第12條有提到就是公務機關每年要向上級或監督機關"},{"start":11266.031,"end":11283.225,"text":"提出這個資通安全維護計畫的實施情形那無上級機關者這個資安安全維護計畫實施情形應該送主管機關那照這個條文看起來好像都不是送我們速發部的資安署"},{"start":11286.764,"end":11311.132,"text":"通報會到我們自安署嗎跟委員報告的確是通報都會到我們署裡面來因為我們有一個通報的系統所以只要有發生自然事件只要一個小時內他就要再通報到我們的系統裡面來掌握相關的一個事件這個是受到攻擊的時候的通報嗎平常的這個自然維護計劃呢"},{"start":11312.899,"end":11324.214,"text":"是那跟委員報告就是委務計畫各單位就要在每年訂定然後他成這個成他的主管核定之後就可以但是那個這個計畫的實施情形他要報到這個書畫部這邊來"},{"start":11327.979,"end":11350.598,"text":"實施情形要保了,所以我們抒發部、資安署可以確實掌握嗎?掌握各機關的實施情形嗎?是的,因為他們有一個系統,他們透過系統裡面來填報他們的整個計畫實施情形那我們就可以根據他的實施情形之後做一些相關的一些分析等等的做一些相關的一些報告"},{"start":11351.676,"end":11371.154,"text":"是那就是不曉得說這個部分到底有沒有確實的落實我想這個部分應該我們資安署要積極的去了解這個部分我們在要求機關在第一年的大概三月底前要填報前一年度的這個維護計畫的這個時間前行"},{"start":11374.049,"end":11383.014,"text":"對好那這個資安的維護非常重要那剛剛我們有提到這個基礎關鍵設施所以對這個通訊就是有關這個通訊的部分關鍵基礎設施我們抒發部就是如果說面對這個天災風災或者是地震發生的這個基礎設施就是"},{"start":11398.943,"end":11407.593,"text":"就是斷訊的時候就是有關基地台如果說毀損的時候我們速發部有什麼方法可以來支援這個通訊"},{"start":11408.274,"end":11430.04,"text":"通訊的韌性是非常重要 那我們蘇阿部做在這邊就是我們就是就是多元益子的網路通訊包括海陸空嘛所以就是說從這個地面的fiber到所謂的4G 5G到微波到天上的衛星低軌中軌高軌都有在佈建"},{"start":11431.02,"end":11456.585,"text":"所以希望能夠在不管什麼天災人禍都希望通訊能夠通能夠暢通這是我們的書畫部的一個很重要的目標是啊是目標啦那當然就是說如果遇到的時候我們可以怎麼做啦那我有看到本席有看到就是說在0403的花蓮地震的時候我們確實是有發揮這樣子的一個功能就是"},{"start":11457.065,"end":11483.823,"text":"利用這個低軌衛星投入這個救災我想這個是值得肯定的就是我們也是透過跟空勤的這個直升機的合作把這個就是通訊的這個低軌衛星設備投到天翔那邊去然後可以來協助這個救災這個是非常重要的因為在完全斷訊的情況下不管是居民要對外聯絡求救或者是說我們政府機關要"},{"start":11485.344,"end":11500.177,"text":"這個通訊真的是不可或缺的所以這是非常重要那本席也有注意到就是說除了低軌衛星之外還有一個設備就是高空通訊平台那這部分我不曉得說我們速發部目前進展的這個狀況如何"},{"start":11502.703,"end":11523.492,"text":"這個高空通訊平台我們去年有做了一個系統就是用高空的氣球來把通訊設備來做通訊那個實驗是成功的那今年本來是要有無人機做這件事情但是因為預算被砍所以我們今年這個計畫是暫停不過我們希望未來能夠再重新啟動"},{"start":11524.318,"end":11536.97,"text":"我本期注意到的是剛剛部長說是成功的可是我看媒體報導是我們那次升空是失敗的那是因為那天有颱風風力太大我們先測試成功記者會那天沒辦法"},{"start":11541.755,"end":11568.792,"text":"不是記者會那天沒辦法升空但前面我們已經經過測試測試是有成功的記者會要發表所以你用這個氣球的方式還是有很大的變數嗎所以如果說災害發生的時候剛好風力又太大那你就派不上用場了對 但是就是說在事後的救災就剛剛講說颱風過後天氣開始轉好以後氣球就可以上去就那天我們在做記者會的時候正好遇到颱風所以那天就沒有升空"},{"start":11569.525,"end":11576.911,"text":"是所以我覺得說這個氣球這種方式真的是還是有很大的變數所以剛剛部長有提到要發展無人機那國外都已經用這個無人機來就是載運這樣子的一個通訊的設備所以我們也是真的是很遺憾的就是說在114年的這個預算裡面就是我們這個速發部確實也有編列的預算就是要"},{"start":11598.089,"end":11623.347,"text":"關於這個晶片驅動產業創新再升級的這個經費裡面有一部分是要辦理非地面通訊關鍵技術應用的推動嘛對不對那這個預算現在目前都沒了因為被刪減所以我們現在是今年暫停今年暫停就被刪減了就暫停了所以我覺得這個在野黨亂山預算真的就是危害國家的安全因為對於這個整個數位國家的一個韌性真的是傷害非常的大謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":11634.96,"end":11657.542,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請邱若驊委員謝謝主席 主席請速發部黃部長請部長部長好 部長好 部長我們現在看到法務部的資料"},{"start":11658.649,"end":11670.754,"text":"那我們看到114年 我們先看114年1月到3月那全國各地檢署他們所提出一共新增的44,761件的電信網路詐騙雖然這個是電信網路詐騙的部分嘛 可是僅僅三個月那詐騙的案件數就已經超過108年的34,947件那以全年來看 雖然跟113年比起來 112年它有下降嘛"},{"start":11686.141,"end":11704.411,"text":"那可是還是有167,932件那單日最高的詐騙金額高達5億元那顯示詐騙仍然是非常的長久那手段也是不斷的翻新對此本席要就打詐的議題就叫部長部長我們先來看到"},{"start":11705.529,"end":11718.696,"text":"好下一個投影片那民國八十一年的時候環保署他有推出保特瓶回收的政策嘛當時公告每每回收一支保特瓶可兌換兩元的壓平費那到了八十六年呢環保署將回收的金額從兩塊錢調到一塊錢那"},{"start":11721.738,"end":11744.079,"text":"同年他又將押平費改為回收獎勵金那接著在89年的時候回收獎勵金他進一步降到每支0.5元那最後在民國91年他全面取消了獎勵的制度那我們也看到財政部那民國71年的時候他有制定統一發票給獎的辦法嘛那初期是每個月開獎後來隨著制度的演進每兩個月"},{"start":11745.92,"end":11770.987,"text":"開講一次那到了102年為了配合電子發票的政策推動財政部他有增設了雲端發票專屬的獎勵鼓勵民眾使用電子發票那部長本席會舉這兩個例子喔他這兩項政策的推動喔您認為當時政府為什麼會推這兩項政策他的思維跟目的是什麼應該就是鼓勵大家用電子發票就是以發票這個來講或是回收鼓勵回收這樣"},{"start":11771.744,"end":11787.007,"text":"是因為政策的推動往往需要就是以獎勵的方式來鼓勵民眾使用嘛那為了有效打炸速發部也有開發了一個網炸通報查詢的APP那這個APP在去年的9月30號現在4月7號我們又上架了"},{"start":11787.507,"end":11814.359,"text":"4月7號的時候又上架了那目前的下載次數大約是多少15000多15000多個民眾下載15000多個民眾下載然後目前有大概舉報的詐騙訊息從去年到現在大概15萬多然後你們有7萬多是詐騙訊息我們都要求這些廣告平台上下架大概已經下架7萬多所以平均每一個月下架1萬多的詐騙廣告"},{"start":11815.399,"end":11830.971,"text":"平均每個月下架1萬多的詐騙廣告因為本行看到他目前在安卓的平台上面他的下載次數是5000多次所以在iOS系統上面要重新更新這個因為軟體是重新上架所以如果以前有安裝過要重新更新"},{"start":11831.351,"end":11855.219,"text":"OK 好那另外有看到速發部這個是LINE的部分速發部跟通訊軟體LINE合作你們合作推出了防炸的動態警報請問部長這個防炸的動態警報它功能是什麼時候上線的防炸動態警報那個去年的上半年正式上線嗎去年上半年那目前有多少民眾加入使用"},{"start":11856.164,"end":11867.364,"text":"我算百應該是百萬以上吧不好意思這個數字百萬以上那本席這邊看到他目前的好友數是一百三十七萬七千多民眾那跟這個"},{"start":11869.239,"end":11892.554,"text":"網站的通報APP相比那這個LINE的防炸它的防炸動態警報它的普及率跟使用度是比較高的那有沒有考量目前LINE的使用戶也有2200萬左右嘛那有沒有考慮就是說要加強宣導呢LINE跟我們也有合作在這個防爆上面加上就是我們有這樣的互通的一個機制那這個LINE的通報數平均是多少"},{"start":11893.514,"end":11916.68,"text":"9的通報數他這個數目我想這個資料我們還要再去還要再請再請訴發部提供提供相關的資料那也希望訴發部可以積極的研議那針對一下回報詐騙的資訊率準確比較高的民眾或是他非常積極的去反映詐騙那是不是可以提供具體的獎勵這個也在演繹嗎ok好那接下來我們"},{"start":11917.864,"end":11936.353,"text":"部長我們看EID我們回歸我們回顧EID的歷程那他從2013年開始研發最近已經超過10年了那他的預算也高達46億那原本要在2020年10月份的時候推出可是當時外界對於治安的風險還有疑慮嘛最後在2021年的時候他宣布全面"},{"start":11937.173,"end":11959.836,"text":"停止推行那後來也因為違約的關係他賠償了廠商2.8億那就本席小姐部長您擁有美國Maryland大學的科訓資訊科學碩博士的學位那這邊要請教部長為什麼當時您的專業判斷EID沒有辦法推行呢我想EID有幾個一個當然就是說因為它是一個實體卡片"},{"start":11960.396,"end":11977.24,"text":"而且是強迫要取代所有的目前的身份證那你沒有選擇要用破不用那這個卡片的資安就變得很重要那當然一個是這個卡片的資安大家對他還是有疑慮因為那個晶片本身的資安因為有疑慮所以我想是由"},{"start":11977.7,"end":12001.816,"text":"因為它有分成四大區塊嘛 因為它有分成就是戶籍地區 公開區 加密區 還有自然人憑證區那本席要問 今年速發部3月10號數位憑證皮夾 它也是將自然人憑證健保卡還有駕照等重要的文件整合存放那民眾只需要一支手機 它就可以進行身份驗證那它跟EID的最主要的那個報告文完全不一樣 因為那個憑證皮夾是一個容器"},{"start":12002.276,"end":12025.915,"text":"是 它是一個載具嘛對 那我們不會發行新的憑證也就是拿既有憑證 而且你可以選擇性要放一般就是說自然的憑證不是強迫你一定要放上去如果覺得有需要才放所以它是一個container它不是一個新的證件所以它沒有打算取代身份證也不是 它不會取代所以從3月10號當時推出到現在一個月現在民眾的現在是這樣 就是我們是"},{"start":12026.315,"end":12050.105,"text":"開放沙盒讓不同的產業來使用包括這裡面包括各個業者產業跟政府業者目前有1300個申請案就是說他們可以把他們已經有的憑證放在這個我們這個這個容器裡面這個容器的好處是說你不用重新開發新的APP如果你只是要把certificate放上來已經有東西可以放這個確實對很多公司跟政府單位是一個幫助"},{"start":12050.845,"end":12053.167,"text":"那這個經費來源是從公共基礎建設的經費向下去增益那今年的經費額度約大概是在1億元左右的幅度"},{"start":12076.683,"end":12098.761,"text":"OK 好 謝謝您的說明那部長目前你剛剛提到有1300戶是企業用戶嗎就是有包括所以跟委員說明一下1300包含了個人那也包含了廠商那也包含了支付業者都會是在1300萬喔所以預計今年年底12月他可以順利的"},{"start":12099.261,"end":12117.896,"text":"我們就是期待在整個因為目前是在測試階段是那我們希望在測試階段的各界能夠積極回應我們一些相關的改善建議那我們期待能夠在12月會有第一版的公開測試版讓大家能夠去使用OK好也務必要確認就是各自的安全謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12127.951,"end":12148.522,"text":"鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在高金素美 高金素美 高金素美委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在好 我們請黃婕委員好 謝謝主席 我們請黃部長請部長好 委員好"},{"start":12158.103,"end":12182.794,"text":"好部長好我在這邊延續早上的提案說明因為其實今天修這個資通安全管理法裡面有一個很重要的就是要求公務機關不得採購跟使用危害國家安全的產品那其實在我的版本裡面有更明確的提到我們就是這個危害國家安全的資通產品到底對象是誰那我裡面是非常明確的把紅色供應鏈都寫出來"},{"start":12183.314,"end":12200.455,"text":"就是包括中港澳還有境外敵對勢力的產品都不能採購跟下載以及使用那所以我在這邊也想要請教我們肅發部的意見認為直接這樣子寫出來那這個條文的可行性如何"},{"start":12201.483,"end":12231.083,"text":"報告委員這個我想這個因為這個危害國家中央安全產品這個因為比如說我們今天如果跟某家某一個公司在公司是美國公司那有可能在使用過程之後他有中資入股那就變成有危害所以重點是在後面的審查就後面的使用的時候的審查檢查跟通報所以我想這個條文這樣寫當然是很好更清楚但是還不還不大夠我們後面還是有個使用跟"},{"start":12232.304,"end":12247.203,"text":"部長對我要跟你講一下我的版本裡面其實是包括前面他前段是寫說不得下載公務機關不得下載及使用採購這個有危害的產品以及包括中港澳其實我是把兩個項目都放進去"},{"start":12247.563,"end":12275.979,"text":"所以不管是使用端還是前端其實都有放進去那其實我要講喔行政院2020年其實就已經有一個函文了對不對就是直接下令公務機關原則上禁止使用及採購大陸廠牌的資通訊產品那我認為就是在這邊就是把它法制化而已所以我認為這個應該是沒有什麼意義那我希望部長可以更明確的把這個條文如果真的進到修法的時候可以把它入法OK"},{"start":12277.5,"end":12304.785,"text":"這個我們可以再好謝謝部長那再來其實還有一點時間我要講一下另外我早上有特別提到醫療的資通安全的部分那這個是最近因為有發生過包括說二月的馬街醫院三月的彰化基督教醫院四月中壢的長盛醫院都被攻擊然後掛號失靈這個掛號失靈是醫院被迫改成人工叫號然後醫生要在那邊手寫處方然後還有八萬多人的病例疑似被外洩"},{"start":12305.785,"end":12333.926,"text":"那這其實是非常嚴重的事情那這個我要再講說醫院其實就是非常重要的關鍵基礎設施嘛那既然這麼重要的話除了說我知道說當時衛福部也有請我們資安署來協助對不對我們有派人進駐去看他們到底是發生什麼狀況那在這邊我想要了解一下當時這個資訊洩漏的災情到底如何那我們如何去防範那我在這邊提一下這個美國的一些例子喔"},{"start":12334.206,"end":12359.532,"text":"因為其實在今年二月底美國的FDA還有他們的網路安全基礎設施的設施局其實就有提到說有一款中國生產的生理監視器CMS8000就是他們的康泰克生產的那其實裡面可能有一個後門這個後門是可以把病患的資料傳輸到中國第三方大學的IP裡面"},{"start":12360.012,"end":12385.854,"text":"那這聽起來蠻驚悚的喔等於是說如果你用中國的這個機器他把你的生理監視的資料可以從後門偷偷的偷走那我認為在這邊要非常防範這些事情啦雖然我們不知道說二三四月發生的這一些在台灣的案例到底是純粹的駭客想要透過做一些商業上面的勒索還是他背後還有其他的意圖不得而知"},{"start":12386.374,"end":12396.745,"text":"那這個就是要請你們去調查的所以可不可以請我們的資安署說明一下調查出來的結果包括他的目的為何然後災情洩漏的狀況還有如何去防範"},{"start":12398.462,"end":12416.41,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這個從2月份開始的包括說馬街、張機等等的相關醫院的這些駭客入侵的這些手法我們都發現都是屬於一個駭客組織叫做Credit Hunter這個駭客組織這個駭客組織我們也發現裡面有一些信件好像有點簡體制這樣的一個情況"},{"start":12418.411,"end":12433.903,"text":"因此在後來就有一些警察單位去做調查那在今年的4月2號那個刑事警察局就有發布一個新聞就是說他們破獲了這個Crazy Hunter這個駭客組織裡面有一位來自中國大陸的姓羅姓的一個駭客他是20歲左右"},{"start":12434.423,"end":12450.826,"text":"那所以大概目前來講對於這個駭客組織已經有一些掌握跟有一些破獲那目前應該是循著這些國際的這些國際的這個行政組織等等在相關的這個通緝是目前對這個的一個瞭解那另外剛剛也提到是說對這個醫院的這個防範這個熱索病毒的攻擊那目前在這幾次事件裡面我們發現還是一個終端防護的一個設施叫做EDR"},{"start":12459.068,"end":12470.089,"text":"是最有效的防護措施那這個部分會不會也在協助各個醫院跟廠商洽談一個比較優惠的價格來導入相關的這個終端防患的這個治安設備 以上"},{"start":12470.697,"end":12497.791,"text":"好謝謝我覺得到目前是蠻完整的確實我們目前掌握到就是這個crazy hunter那只是說如果這個真的是如剛剛署長署長所說他背後有一些就是中國的勢力他可能是對台灣的整體防衛性的一個測試是一個壓力測試的話那這個真的不得了非常嚴重對所以這個是必須要往下追查以及相關防範的在這邊提醒好謝謝部長"},{"start":12506.027,"end":12521.039,"text":"謝謝王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員不在李柏毅 李柏毅 李柏毅委員不在蘇津淺 蘇津淺 蘇津淺委員不在葛如軍 葛如軍 葛如軍委員不在張祺凱 張祺凱 張祺凱委員不在葉元智 葉元智 葉元智委員不在"},{"start":12526.349,"end":12546.71,"text":"登記委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定報告及詢問完畢委員邱振軍所提書面諮詢 列入紀錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請數位發展部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":12549.933,"end":12572.015,"text":"現在處理自動安全管理法修正案的審查本日僅先進行宣讀條文的程序如果有修正動議或附帶決議也一併宣讀如果不是跟這個法案有關的可以先離開我們現在請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":12580.835,"end":12587.503,"text":"OK 沒關係好 你行OK OK OK好 OK 好OK 辛苦你們那個臉 臉真得不用坐在這裡"},{"start":12597.831,"end":12614.948,"text":"資通安全管理法修正草案共識四案條文對照表第一章張明各提案章明均未修正同性行章明第一條除委員羅美玲等提案外其餘行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨環提案委員提案均未修正"},{"start":12615.717,"end":12638.553,"text":"委員羅美玲等提案第一條後段修正為促進產業發展及提升全民治安意識特制定本法其餘文字同心形條文第二條除委員蔡奇昌格盧君李柏芸羅美玲等提案外其餘行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案均為"},{"start":12640.185,"end":12664.988,"text":"本法治主管機關為數位發展部國家資通安全業務由數位發展部資通安全署以下簡稱治安署辦理委員蔡奇昌格盧君李博義等提案第二條本法治主管機關為數位發展部委員羅美玲等提案除第二項默劇"},{"start":12666.656,"end":12670.744,"text":"多了統籌兩個文字外其餘文字同行這面提案"},{"start":12671.994,"end":12699.524,"text":"第三條,除委員葛如君、沈博洋、賴瑞隆、林怡謹、陳樹越、林俊憲、盧美玲、台灣民眾黨黨團等提案外,其餘行政院提案委員提案均為在第三款後段修正為銷毀或其他情形影響其機密性、完整性或可用性第四款"},{"start":12700.799,"end":12726.121,"text":"第四款在中段刪除資通安全後面政策兩個文字以及默劇構成資通安全政策之威脅等文字第六款做文字上的修正在前段關鍵基礎設施前面徵訂特定兩個文字"},{"start":12729.865,"end":12748.998,"text":"據莫修正為公營事業或特定財團法人等文字第七款前段作修正為指行政院定期檢視並公告之領域中該領域服務所依賴之等文字在莫具修正為"},{"start":12750.339,"end":12769.315,"text":"国民生活或经济活动有重大影响之余者第八款修正为特定关键基础设施提供者自委运或提供关键基础设施全部或一部所依赖自资通系统经中央目的事业主管机关指定送由主管"},{"start":12770.655,"end":12793.541,"text":"機關報請行政任何定者第9款修正為特定財團法人只符合財團法人法第2條第2項第3項或第63條第1項第4項規定之財團法人並屬該法第2條第8項所定全國性財團法人者文革如君等提案第3條"},{"start":12798.14,"end":12825.32,"text":"在第七款的部分做一個文字修正其關鍵基礎設施指經行政院定期檢視並公告之領域中該領域服務所依賴之等文字第八款的序文修正為關鍵自動基礎設施提供者"},{"start":12825.68,"end":12852.746,"text":"第九款修正為九特定財團法人只符合財團法人法第二條第二項或第六三條第一項規定之財團法人並屬該法第二條第八項所定全國性財團法人者除以上修正外均同行政院提案違憲駁養等提案第三條在第五款的部分地方機關苟或"},{"start":12853.732,"end":12865.68,"text":"後面修正為行政法人等文字 第六款在公營事業後面修正為或特定財團法人等文字第七款"},{"start":12866.809,"end":12894.188,"text":"前段修正為指行政公告之關鍵領域中該領域服務所依賴之系統或網路之實體或虛擬資產目據修正為國民生活或經濟活動有重大影響止於者第八款的目據修正為經歷第十九條規定通知者第九款中段修正為第三項或第六十三條第一項規定除以上修正外"},{"start":12895.31,"end":12922.686,"text":"其餘均同行政院提案為賴瑞隆等提案第3條第8款修正為特定關鍵基礎設施提供者只提供關鍵基礎設施所需一部或全部資通訊系統或為此其運作者經中央目的事業主管機關指定順由主管機關報請行政院合併政定第10款"},{"start":12924.744,"end":12949.891,"text":"文字內容為十 危害國家資通安全產品子對國家資通安全具有直接或間接造成危害風險影響政府運作或身為安電之資通系統或資通服務經營主管機關列管之產品或服務除以上修正外均同行政面提案委員連行等提案第三條第六款"},{"start":12951.907,"end":12968.892,"text":"文字內容修正為六特定非公務機關指特定基礎設施提供者公允私業或特定財產法人其文字均衡行政院提案為前數月等提案"},{"start":12970.134,"end":12993.192,"text":"第三條第四款的中斷修正第四款第四款的中斷安全的後面維持政策兩個文字第七款修正為關鍵基礎設施指進行正面定期檢視並公告這領域其領域服務所依賴之公司有實體或虛擬的資產"},{"start":12996.482,"end":13018.929,"text":"政令第10款文字內容為危害國家資通安全產品指對國家資通安全具有直接或間接造成危害風險影響政府運作或社會安定制資通系統或資通服務並經主管機關核定者除以上修正外均同行政院提案"},{"start":13027.423,"end":13047.598,"text":"委員林俊憲等提案第三條在第七款的部分修正為其關鍵基礎事實指行政院公告之關鍵領域中該領域服務所依賴之系統或網路之實體或虛擬資產其文字同行政院提案委員林美玲等提案第三條"},{"start":13051.226,"end":13066.222,"text":"第六款中段修正為關鍵基礎設施之違運或提供者第七款前段修正為指行自願議院定期解釋並公告這領域中間領域所依賴之實體或虛擬資產"},{"start":13071.617,"end":13090.208,"text":"徵定第10款文字內容為危害國家資通安全產品只對國家資產安全具有直接或間接造成危害風險可能影響政府運作或社會安定之資通系統或資通服務批監主管機關和定者其餘均同行這邊提案"},{"start":13111.176,"end":13123.702,"text":"第三條的第三款莫具修正為銷毀或其他侵害以確保其機密性完整性及可用性"},{"start":13126.278,"end":13151.925,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第3條在第6款的部分默劇修正為特定財團法人或受政府控制之事業團體或機構政令第10款文字內容為受政府控制之事業團體或機構指全序部公告之政府即其所屬營業基金非營業基金轉投資金而累計"},{"start":13153.626,"end":13165.015,"text":"佔該事業資本額百分之二十以上之轉投資或再投資事業受政府直接或間接控制其人事財務或業務之轉投資或再轉投資事業團體或機構增訂第十一款危害國家之通安全產品之對國家之"},{"start":13176.707,"end":13204.189,"text":"通安全具有直接或間接造成危害風險影響政府運作或社會安定並經主管機關定期公告之資通系統或資通服務產品 其餘均同行政院提案第四條 除委員葛如君 沈柏洋 蔡啟昌羅美林等提案 外其餘行政院提案 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案均為"},{"start":13206.741,"end":13229.179,"text":"在第一項第四款的默劇修正為相關服務及審驗機制之發展第二項修正為前項相關四項之推動由主管機關擬定國家智通安全發展方案報請行政院核定後14區文字同性型條文文革如軍等題案第四條"},{"start":13231.181,"end":13236.933,"text":"徵訂第一項第五款文字內容為協助民間處理因應"},{"start":13238.792,"end":13267.195,"text":"及防範滋通安全事件 其文字同行政院提案 委員審博洋等提案第4條在第2項的部分 莫具修正為報請行政院定之 其文字同行政院提案 委員蔡其昌等提案 中間第1項第5款5 協助民間處理因應及防範滋通安全事件"},{"start":13270.734,"end":13275.832,"text":"許文哲銅行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第4條"},{"start":13278.806,"end":13306.706,"text":"徵訂第一項第五款五資源民間企業的資通安全防護第六款提升全民資通安全意識第二項修正為前項相關事項之推動由主管機關擬定國家資通安全發展方案報請行政院核定後實施並視情況定期檢討修正方案內容以符合最新資資通安全需求"},{"start":13307.546,"end":13335.369,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案 徵令第五條除葛 盧金城 術越 盧美玲他民眾黨黨團 邱樂華等提案外其餘行政院提案及委員提案均為第五條為落實國家自通安全政策各政府機關中央及地方間應致力配合推動執行國家自通安全措施共同建構國家自通安全環境為辦理國家自通安全政策應變"},{"start":13336.83,"end":13361.253,"text":"機制與重大計畫之諮詢審議協調各政府機關中央及地方建設自通安全相關事務行政院應召開國家自通安全匯報其幕僚作業由主管機關辦理前向國家自通安全匯報決議事項與相關政府部門應與執行由主管機關定期追蹤管考並得辦理績效平和第一項國家自通安全匯報之組成"},{"start":13362.995,"end":13369.925,"text":"任務議事程序及其他相關事項之辦法有行政院定則文革如君等提案第五條"},{"start":13371.741,"end":13395.031,"text":"在第一項的前段安全政策後面定為各級政府機關應致力配合推動執行在第二項的後段定為行政院應定期召開國家資通安全匯報由行政院院長擔任召集人其幕僚作業由主管機關辦理"},{"start":13396.312,"end":13420.2,"text":"其文字同行政院提案委員陳樹葉等提案第五條前段安全政策的後面定為中央及地方政府機關間第二項的默劇定為行政院應定其召開國家自通安全匯報其幕僚作業由主管機關辦理其文字同行政院提案"},{"start":13421.685,"end":13444.884,"text":"為盧美玲等提案第五條第一項的默劇定為並提升跨機關自通安全協助能力第二項定為為推動國家自通安全政策之執行應變機制與重大計畫之諮詢審議以及協調各政府機關中央及地方間自通安全相關事務主管機關應召開國家自通安全匯報"},{"start":13447.266,"end":13468.443,"text":"統籌支通安全事務至規劃與執行並負責各機關之橫向聯繫與協調會報至幕僚作業由主管機關辦理第三項後段定為並由主管機關定期追蹤考核必要時而辦理績效平和確保各機關有效落實支通安全政策第四項"},{"start":13470.526,"end":13478.091,"text":"的墨具定位由主管機關擬定報請行政院核定後實施台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條"},{"start":13480.748,"end":13504.276,"text":"第二項的中斷後定為行政院應涉國家之通安全匯報由行政院院長擔任召集人召集相關部會首長專家學者及民間團體代表共同組成專家學者及民間團體代表不得低於三分之一至少每三個月開會一次必要時的召開臨時會議期幕僚作業由主管機關辦理"},{"start":13506.417,"end":13530.996,"text":"其文字同行政院提案委員邱若驊等提案第五條第二項莫具修正委行政院用電器召開國家資訊安全匯報其幕僚作業由主管機關辦理其文字同行政院提案第六條原條文第五條除葛如、菌、邱若驊等提案外其與行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案均為"},{"start":13534.15,"end":13541.262,"text":"在第一項的墨具這邊修正及國家資通安全發展方案"},{"start":13542.731,"end":13570.939,"text":"第二項的後段修正為及國家自通安全發展方案應由主管機關送立法院備查其文字同性型條文文革如今等提案第六條在第一項的中段修正為並應每年公布國家自通安全情報情勢報告對公務機關及特定非公務機關之等文字莫具這邊"},{"start":13572.479,"end":13597.445,"text":"做修正為及國家資通安全發展方案第二項修正為前項情勢報告對公務機關及特定非公務機關資通安全維護計畫實施情形集合概況報告及國家資通安全發展方案應由主管機關送立法院備查其餘文字同新型條文委員邱若驊等提案第六條"},{"start":13599.147,"end":13623.401,"text":"在第一項的部分中段這邊修正為資通安全科技發展國際與學術交流合作及資通安全整體防護等相關事宜其文字同行政院提案第七條除外原格如君審博洋賴瑞榮等提案外其行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案為人提案均為"},{"start":13626.997,"end":13644.18,"text":"公務機關及特定非公務機關應按其業務重要與精密性機關層級保有或處理之資訊種類數量、性質、自動系統之規模及性質等條件、保有之安屬、核定或被查其自通安全、責任等級"},{"start":13648.735,"end":13677.837,"text":"公務機關及特定非公務機關應符合資通安全責任等級之要求並自管理技術認知及訓練等面向辦理資通安全防護措施前二項資通安全責任等級之區分標準和訂貨備查程序並更申請資通安全防護措施辦理項目內容專職人員之配置與專業條件及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":13680.802,"end":13691.442,"text":"委員個如今等提案第七條在第一項的莫具修正為抱有主管機關和定期之通安全責任等級"},{"start":13699.554,"end":13723.036,"text":"第三項修正為前兩項主動安全責任等級之區分基準合併程序變更申請自動安全防護措施辦理項目內容專職人員資這個條件與配置及其他相關思想的辦法由主管機關定制 其餘文字同行這邊提案 文審不讓等提案第七條第三項的"},{"start":13723.896,"end":13748.204,"text":"莫具修正委專職人員資格與配置及其他相關事項的辦法由主管機關訂製 據文字同行政院提案委員賴玉榮等提案第七條第一項的聚首修正為主管機關應橫著公務機關及特定非公務機關其餘文字同行政院提案"},{"start":13754.554,"end":13769.634,"text":"第八條原條文第七條第二項及第三項除委員葛如君、沈伯陽、賴瑞榮、羅美玲等提案外其行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案均為第八條資安署"},{"start":13770.114,"end":13797.861,"text":"得定期或不定期集合公務機關及特定非公務機關自自通安全維護計劃實施情形傾向集合後發現受集合機關自通安全維護計劃實施情形有缺失或待改善者受集合機關應提出改善報告公務機關送交1第14條規定受其實施情形之機關特定非公務機關送交中央目的事業主管機關審查後"},{"start":13799.821,"end":13811.688,"text":"由該審查機關送交自安署前項收受改善報告自機關任有必要時得要求受集合機關進行說明或調整前三項支通安全維護計畫實施情形之"},{"start":13815.676,"end":13835.903,"text":"結合評慮內容與方法改善報告再提出及其他相關事項的辦法由主管機關訂資並向結合郵支安署擬定年度計畫送由主管機關報請行政院核定後辦理年度計畫及年度成果報告應送交國家之通安全匯報被查"},{"start":13838.055,"end":13853.064,"text":"文革無均等提案第8條B1 向修正委主管機關應定期或不定期集合公務機關及非特定公務機關之直通安全維護計畫實施清醒"},{"start":13854.265,"end":13869.362,"text":"第二項的墨具修正為受機和機關應提出改善報告並送交主管機關審核第二項文字內容為主管機關收受改善報告後任有必要時可要求受機和機關進行說明或調整"},{"start":13870.819,"end":13898.737,"text":"其文字同行政院提案委員審撥樣等提案第八條第二項的默劇修正為改善報告因送交上級機關上級政府監督機關或中央目的事業主管機關審查後並送交資安署第四項前三項自動安全維護計畫實施情形之集合頻率內容與方法及其他相關事項辦法由主管機關定制"},{"start":13899.878,"end":13917.061,"text":"第五項 第一項 集合郵資安數 擬定年度計劃後辦理年度計劃及年度成果報告因送交國家自通安全匯報被查區民自通行政院提案 委內容等提案第八條"},{"start":13919.52,"end":13942.877,"text":"第二項經前項集合發現受集合機關知通安全維護計畫實施情形有缺失或待改善者受集合機關應提出改善報告第三項前項報告之提出公務機關應依第14條規定辦理特定非公務機關應送交目的是主管機關審查後再送知安署"},{"start":13944.161,"end":13958.308,"text":"第六項 第一項 集合郵支安署 擬定年度計畫後辦理年度計畫及年度成果 報告應送交國家之通安全匯報備查其文字同行政院提案"},{"start":13959.789,"end":13975.918,"text":"為盧美玲等提案第8條各公務機關及特定非公務機關自自通安全維護計畫應接受主管機關定期或不定期是結合以確保自通安全措施之落實為確保結合結果有效執行主管機關的要求"},{"start":13976.898,"end":13995.872,"text":"SO 集合機關依據集合結果提出改善計畫並於指定期限內完成改善必要時主管機關得進行績效評估並將集合及改善進行列入機關考核主管機關辦理前項集合及考核自執行前行範圍及集團相關事項由主管機關定制"},{"start":13999.042,"end":14014.944,"text":"第9條原條文第8條除委員隔離捐等提案外其餘行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案均為在聚首的部分修正為之按屬區文字同心形條文委員隔離捐等提案第9條"},{"start":14017.695,"end":14041.313,"text":"條文未修正 同心形條文第10條原條文第9條除委員葛禄君 林怡謹 蔡奇昌 羅美蓮 台灣民眾黨黨運動提案外期域行政院提案委員提案均為在兵線的部分後段修正為應選任適當之受託者要求受託者建立有效之直通安全管理機制並監督該機制之實施"},{"start":14044.435,"end":14066.862,"text":"第二項文字內容為公務機關或特定非公務機關辦理前項委外業務應與受託者簽訂書面契約載明雙方自權利義務及違約責任據文字同心形條文 文格如君等提案第10條 正面第二項前項受託者辦理受託業務自"},{"start":14068.582,"end":14075.893,"text":"相關程序及環境應具備完善自治通安全管理措施或通過公正第三方驗證"},{"start":14079.693,"end":14106.694,"text":"以下第三項第四項第五項文字內容為受委託業務包括客製化自通系統開發者受託者應提供該自通系統的安全性檢測證明該系統屬委託機關之核心之通系統或委託金額達新台幣一千萬元以上者委託機關應練行委託公證第三方進行安全檢測"},{"start":14108.115,"end":14132.188,"text":"前兩項公正第三方應具備充足資源及認證能力且與被認證對象不得有利害關係公務機關或特定非公務機關辦理第一項委外業務應與受託者訂定契約在明雙方之權利義務及違約責任舉文字統行政院提案為臨時等提案第10條"},{"start":14134.935,"end":14160.521,"text":"在第一項的後段修正為要求收託者建立有效自治通安全管理機制並監督該機制之實施其文字同行政院提案委員蔡其昌等提案第9條在第一項的後段修正為及要求收託者建立有效自治通安全管理機制公務機關或特定非公務機關並應監督該機制之實施"},{"start":14164.702,"end":14193.176,"text":"中例第三項文字內容為未確保國家資通訊安全主管機關應訂定前項書面契約範本公參為羅美玲等提案第十條公務機關及特定非公務機關為外辦理資通系統之建設為運貨服務提供應採取資通安全措施並於契約中明定為外廠商資通安全"},{"start":14194.522,"end":14212.939,"text":"管理責任主管機關應提供契約範本以供各機關在委外契約中訂定安全要求包括包含數據保護系統維護異常通報機制等委外機關對受託廠商支通安全措施"},{"start":14214.932,"end":14241.454,"text":"主管機關得進行審查必要時而要求改進或補充知通安全防務作勢台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十條第三項訂定的文字為前項書面契約資格是內容主管機關應訂定形化契約範本及其應記載及不得記載事項其文字同行政院提案"},{"start":14242.054,"end":14259.686,"text":"文革如君等提案 政定第十一條文之內容為公務機關及特定非公務機關應規劃並於公正第三方監督之下辦理志同安全演練作業並完成後一個月內將執行前行及成果報告送交主管機關前項演練之"},{"start":14261.387,"end":14283.298,"text":"內容由主管機關令定制第二章張明各提案張明均為修正通現行張明政見第十一條除委員葛禄君、沈伯陽、賴瑞龍、黃姐、蔡啟昌、林俊憲、羅美玲、台灣民眾黨黨團等提案外其餘行政院提案委員提案均為"},{"start":14285.191,"end":14302.345,"text":"第11條公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家之通安全產品其自行或危害營運場所所提供公眾式聽或使用之傳播設備及網際網路接取服務一同但因業務需求且無"},{"start":14303.573,"end":14324.756,"text":"其他替代方案者經該機關資通安全長及依第14條規定收受其實施情形資機關資通安全長合可含報主管機關核定後得以專案方式使用並列車管理公務人員因或配置公務用資通"},{"start":14326.658,"end":14347.538,"text":"訊設備不得下載安裝或使用危害國家直通安全產品並應遵守相關法令規範前兩項有關危害國家直通安全產品之審查程序風險評估情資分享使用限制及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關會商有關機關擬定報請行政院核定之"},{"start":14349.74,"end":14375.188,"text":"委員葛如君等提案第13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品其自行或委外經營運場所已同但因業務需求且無其他替代方案者竟該機關資通安全長及其上級機關資通安全長何可含報主管機關核定後得以專案方式使用並類測管理"},{"start":14378.525,"end":14402.789,"text":"據文字統 行政院提案 委員審 撥樣等提案第11條公益機關不得採購及使用危害國家自通安全產品亦不得採購及使用大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或人員提供自通服務系統及設備其自行或委員提供公眾活動或"},{"start":14403.229,"end":14421.309,"text":"使用之場地一同但因業務需求且無其他地帶方案者經該機關之通安全長及其上級機關之通安全長合可含報主管機關核定後得以專案方式構置並列車管理公務人員或配置公務用資通訊"},{"start":14422.691,"end":14446.132,"text":"設備不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品亦不得下載安裝或使用大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其屬勢力或實時控制之各類組織機構團體或人員提供資通服務及資通系統並應遵守相關法令規範公務機關得向主管機關查詢第一項產品及其廠商"},{"start":14451.041,"end":14469.551,"text":"委內瑞隆等提案第十一條公務機關不得購置安裝下載或使用危害國家知通安全產品其自行或無外營運場所提供公眾視聽或使用之傳播設備或網際網路接取服務一同公務機關發配"},{"start":14471.112,"end":14496.029,"text":"供業務使用之資通訊設備或配者不得下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通訊安全產品並遵守相關法令規範請兩項情形與有業務上需求且無其他替代方案時得盡該機關資通安全長及其上級機關資通安全長核可函報主管機關核定後得以專案方式辦理並類測管理"},{"start":14501.192,"end":14530.003,"text":"最後一項修正聚首修正為第一項及第二項其文字同行政院提案為黃結等提案第十一條公共機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品亦不得採購使用陸資廠商或大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類"},{"start":14532.102,"end":14560.981,"text":"主事機構團體或人員提供自通服務系統及設備其自行或委外營運場所提供公眾視聽或使用之傳播設備及網際網路接取服務一同但業務需求且無其他替代方案者經該機關自通安全長及依第14條規定收受其實事情形之機關自通安全長何可含報主管機關核定後得以專案方式"},{"start":14562.558,"end":14583.769,"text":"使用並類測管理 以下同行政院提案委員蔡啟康等提案第十條之一 公務機關軍事機關及情報機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家自通安全產品但公務機關因業務需求且無其他替代方案 經該機關自通安全長及第十二條"},{"start":14586.397,"end":14612.965,"text":"上級或監督機關支通安全長合可且經主管機關核定得以專案方式使用主管機關應內側管理以下同行字面提案委員蔡啟昌等提案第十條之二前條第一項公務機關自行或委外營運場所提供公眾視聽或使用之傳播設備及網際網路接取服務亦適用之"},{"start":14617.594,"end":14636.696,"text":"委員 林俊憲等提案第十一條公務機關不得下載安裝或採購及使用危害國家安全之通安全產品亦不得下載安裝或採購及使用依國家安全法第二條規定之大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力及其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構"},{"start":14638.938,"end":14640.159,"text":"公眾視聽或使用"},{"start":14668.778,"end":14691.449,"text":"可以專案方式使用並類測管理公務人員接公務人員或配置公務用之通訊設備不得下載安裝或使用危害國家安全之直通安全產品亦不得下載安裝或採購及使用依國家安全法第二條規定之大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力及其所設立之"},{"start":14692.93,"end":14719.691,"text":"及其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人提供之自動安全服務及產品並應遵守相關法令規範前二項有關危害國家安全之自動安全產品以及依國家安全法第二條規定之大陸地區香港澳門境外一類事例及其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人提供之"},{"start":14720.151,"end":14744.965,"text":"职通安全服务及产品制审查程序风险评估情之分享使用限制及其他相关事项的办法由主管机关会商有关机关拟定报请行政院和定之为罗美宁等提案第11条公务机关及特定非公务机关不得采购安装或使用经主管机关认定之危害国家职通安全产品"},{"start":14746.007,"end":14768.663,"text":"若因特殊業務需求卻需使用前項產品則應向主管機關提出例外使用申請並提供安全風險評估報告主管機關得逐案審查核准後方可使用主管機關應定期更新危害國家之通安全產品名單並公告各機關專訓台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十一條"},{"start":14774.366,"end":14792.992,"text":"第一項續文的默劇這邊有多及遵守下列規定等文字第一款字第三款文字內容為一應指定特定區域及特定人員使用且不得傳播影像或"},{"start":14794.132,"end":14807.18,"text":"聲音供不特定人士直接收視或收聽2.故事裡有消失或使用零線介面應立即銷毀3.其他主管機關指定專項其文字同行正面提案"},{"start":14809.522,"end":14825.94,"text":"第十二條 原條文第十一條出委內瑞隆陳述月理不一等提案外期與行政院提案 台灣民眾黨港團提案委員提案條文內容均未修正委內瑞隆等提案第十二條"},{"start":14827.952,"end":14845.141,"text":"立項同線型條文第二項 政令第二項傾向知通安全長應取得資安職能訓練機構自證照或職能訓練合格證書或經主管機關合可後任用 文成數月等提案"},{"start":14846.141,"end":14863.437,"text":"十二條第一項同性型條文第二項前項公務機關應依責任等級制 智通安全專職人員協助執行機關內智通安全相關事務為李博義等提案第十一條"},{"start":14866.621,"end":14888.543,"text":"前段修正為公務機關特定非公務機關應至知通安全長政令第二項文字內容為前項知通安全長應通過資安職能訓練機構之評量獲盡主管機關合可者其文字同線性條文"},{"start":14891.533,"end":14899.568,"text":"第13條原條文第10條各題案條文內容均未修正"},{"start":14901.604,"end":14921.698,"text":"第十四條原條文第十二條除委員葛禄君、沈博洋等提案外其與行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案、委員提案均為第十四條公務機關應每年向上級機關或監督機關提出直通安全維護"},{"start":14923.74,"end":14947.322,"text":"計劃實施情形 五上級機關或監督機關者其自通安全維護計劃實施情形應以下列各款規定辦理一 總統府國家安全會議及五月向資安署提出二 自轄市政府自轄市議會縣市政府及縣市議會向資安署提出三 自轄市山地援助民區公所"},{"start":14947.882,"end":14975.331,"text":"紫霞市山地原住民區民代表會向紫霞市政府提出鄉鎮市公所鄉鎮市民代表會向縣政府提出委員葛如君等提案第15條第一款的墨具修正為向數位發展部提出第二款也是墨具修正為向數位發展部提出第三款修正為"},{"start":14975.931,"end":15002.641,"text":"慈霞市政府所轄三地原住民區公所三地原住民區民代表會向慈霞市政府提出縣市政府所轄鄉鎮市公所鄉鎮市民代表會向縣市政府提出切入文字統行政院提案委員陳伯陽等提案第14條在序文的部分後段修正為因向下列機關提出"},{"start":15005.002,"end":15023.875,"text":"第三款修正為三 紫霞市政府所轄三地原住民區公所三地原住民區民代表會向紫霞市政府提出縣市政府所轄鄉鎮市公所鄉鎮市民代表會向縣市政府提出"},{"start":15026.109,"end":15035.503,"text":"第十五條原條文第十三條主委員沈不揚等提案外籍與行政面提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案"},{"start":15037.423,"end":15061.924,"text":"均為第15條公務機關應集合其所屬所監督之公務機關所轄鄉鎮市公所 子霞市山地原住民區公所及鄉鎮市民代表會子霞市山地原住民區民代表會之之通安全維護計劃實施清醒文審博洋等提案第15條"},{"start":15064.625,"end":15081.437,"text":"第一項同行自願提案第二項文字內容為第13條與前條之通安全維護計畫必要事項實施情形時提出前項集合制評論內容方法及其他相關事項的辦法由主管機關定制"},{"start":15083.362,"end":15105.269,"text":"第十六條原條文第十三條第二項出文葛禄君審博洋奈瑞隆等提案外企業行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案均為第十六條受集合機關至知通安全維護計畫實施情形有缺失或待改善者應向集合機關提出改善報告並由"},{"start":15105.769,"end":15122.883,"text":"集合機關聯同集合結果依資安署指定之方式送交資安署集合機關獲資安署任有必要時得要求受集合機關進行說明或調整前三條及第一項制通安全維護計畫必要事項實施情形之提出"},{"start":15125.327,"end":15150.986,"text":"集合之頻率內容與方法結果之交付改善報告自提出及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定制文革如今等提案第17條在第一項的默劇修正為並由集合機關連同集合結果送交主管機關第二項的前段修正為集合機關或主管機關任有必要時"},{"start":15157.127,"end":15173.798,"text":"第十六條第一項文字內容為受集合機關資資通安全維護計畫實施有缺失或待改善者應向集合機關提出改善報告並聯同集合結果依資安署指定之方式送交資安署"},{"start":15175.731,"end":15203.797,"text":"第二項同行政院提案委內容等提案第十六條第一項的墨具修正為並由集合機關將其安全維護計畫連同集合結果依治安署指定之方式送交治安署其文字同行政院提案第十七條原條文第十四條主委員葛如君、沈伯陽、賴瑞榮"},{"start":15205.377,"end":15224.094,"text":"陳樹越、林俊憲、盧美玲等提案外 七月行政院提案 台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為在第二項的後段修正為因項第十四條規定 收受其實施情形"},{"start":15225.72,"end":15239.992,"text":"知機關及資安署通報第三項前段修正為公務機關應向前項受通報機關等文字第四項前段前三項通報與應"},{"start":15243.595,"end":15267.566,"text":"應變機制之必要事項中段增訂為報告之提出演練作業等文字第五項文字內容為第五項受通報機關慈禧重大自通安全事件時得提供公務機關相關協助與適當時機並得公告與事件相關之必要內容及因應措施"},{"start":15269.409,"end":15280.249,"text":"委員隔如均等提案第18條第二項的中段文字內容為 應向第15條規定收受期實施情形"},{"start":15281.929,"end":15309.447,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案 委員沈伯陽等提案第十七條第三項的前段 文字內容修正為公務機關一項前項接貨通報機關 第五項的聚首修正為第二項接貨通報機關 自吸重大直通安全事件時其餘文字同行政院提案 委員內容等提案第十七條"},{"start":15311.548,"end":15326.417,"text":"在第四項前段的部分修正為前三項通報及應變機制之必要事項六項的聚首修正為第二項接貨通報機關姿勢重大"},{"start":15328.158,"end":15353.715,"text":"知通安全事件時 其文字同行政院提案文呈數月等提案第17條第4項前段修正為第三項通報及應變機制是必要事項中段修正為演練作業調度資源及其他相關事項之辦法其文字同行政院提案"},{"start":15356.255,"end":15377.756,"text":"為林俊憲等提案第十七條第五項第五項的據手修正為第二項接獲通報機關之息重大滋通安全事件時其餘文字同行政院提案為盧美玲等提案第十七條各公務機關及特定非公務機關應建立"},{"start":15379.117,"end":15405.986,"text":"資通安全事件通報機制並配合主管機關並期實施應變演練以提高應變能力公務機關及特定非公務機關發生資通安全事件時應立即通報主管機關並於一定時限內提交事件報告包含事件原因影響範圍及處置措施主管機關得視事件之嚴重性調度其他機關資通安全人員資源應變處理"},{"start":15408.786,"end":15421.143,"text":"第十八條原條文 第十五條出委員葛如君 沈博洋 賴瑞榮 王俊憲羅美 林秋若華等提案外期與行政院提案 台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案"},{"start":15423.826,"end":15441.198,"text":"均為第18條公務機關應符合其資通安全責任等級資要求設置資通安全專職人員辦理資通安全業務及應變處理所屬人員辦理資通安全業務績效優良者應予獎勵資安署應妥善規劃推動專職人員資職能訓練增進其資通安全專業職能欲有重大資通安全實踐資安署的調度各級機關資"},{"start":15453.927,"end":15462.522,"text":"支通安全人員支援之前兩項人員獎勵職能訓練調度資源及其他相關事項辦法由主管機關定制"},{"start":15464.577,"end":15481.581,"text":"委員葛如君等提案第19條在第一項的後段修正為並定期舉辦或鼓勵所屬人員參與知通安全自相關專業訓練第二項以及第三項文之內容為主管機關應妥善規劃並加強推動專職人員自專業訓練增建其知通安全"},{"start":15490.045,"end":15500.382,"text":"專業職能 第一項人員辦理職通安全業務績效優良者應為獎勵 其獎勵辦法由主管機關訂製系文字同行政院提案委員葛如軍等提案第20條"},{"start":15503.038,"end":15523.853,"text":"日有重大資通安全事件 主管機關得盡與調度各級機關資通安全人員資源之其調度資源及相關事項辦法由主管機關定之委員審柏洋等提案第18條公務機關應符合其資通安全責任等級之要求設置專職資通安全人員辦理資通安全業務及應變處理"},{"start":15526.335,"end":15544.796,"text":"資通安全業務績效平和 遊覽者應為獎勵資通署應妥善規劃推動專職人員資職能訓練 增進其資通安全專業資能 欲有重大資通安全事件資安署得敬禮調度各級機關資通安全人員資源之前兩項人員調度資源"},{"start":15548.053,"end":15567.993,"text":"績效平和獎勵及職能訓練相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之委員賴日榮等提案第18條在第一項中段修正為設置專職資通安全人員辦理資通安全業務及應變處理"},{"start":15570.922,"end":15593.895,"text":"第二項的默劇修正為資安署的禁語調度各級機關資通安全人員資源制第三項文字內容為前兩項人員績效平和獎勵職能訓練及調度資源相關四項辦法由主管機關定制其餘文字同行正面提案"},{"start":15596.758,"end":15619.962,"text":"委員林俊憲等提案第十八條列項默劇修正為資安署的禁語調度各級機關自動安全人員資源制第三項前兩項人員調度資源機效平和獎勵職能訓練及其他相關四項辦法由主管機關定制其文字同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案"},{"start":15624.011,"end":15653.07,"text":"第十八條公務機關及特定非公務機關應配置專責資通安全人員負責機關內置資通安全管理應變及風險防範等工作主管機關得視國家安全需要對資通安全專職人員進行是任性查核以確保其符合資通安全之專業標準必要使得指定人員接受相關專業訓練或取得認證委員區入伙等提案第十八條"},{"start":15654.211,"end":15671.949,"text":"第三項的中段調度資源後面徵訂原額兩個文字其餘文字同行政院提案委內瑞隆林郡縣等提案第三章張明均未修正同縣行張明徵訂第十九條"},{"start":15673.57,"end":15699.367,"text":"除台湾民众党党团提案外期与行政院提案委员提案均为第19条公务机关于必要时得对所属支通安全专职人员之试验性进行查核主管机关得与支通安全人员任用考试榜试后对录取人员之试验性进行查核拒绝查核或前两项查核结果经用人机关认定未通过者不得办理"},{"start":15700.668,"end":15712.656,"text":"設計國家機密軍事機密及國防機密之通安全業務行政人員職務得由用人機關基於內部管理及業務運作需要依法進行調整第一項及第二項"},{"start":15715.253,"end":15731.85,"text":"查核記錄由用人機關依相關規定保密處理並託為保管不得遺註他用違反者是情節與益處有關查核權者機關應受查核人員查核程序內容及其他相關事項是辦法由主管機關會商有關機關定之"},{"start":15736.55,"end":15749.389,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第19條條文中查核兩個文字前面多定安全兩個文字其餘均同行政院提案"},{"start":15750.816,"end":15766.087,"text":"第三章章名各提案均為修整同線型章名第二十條原條文第十六條除委員葛禄君沈伯陽陳樹越等提案外其餘行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為"},{"start":15768.723,"end":15791.961,"text":"在第一項的部分中段修正為指定特定關鍵基礎設施提供者後段修正為送由主管機關報請行政院核定並以書面通知受核定者第二項的聚首增訂特定兩個文字中段"},{"start":15792.822,"end":15809.824,"text":"修正為通知通安全責任等級之要求設置知通安全專職人員等文字第三項的聚首徵定特定兩個文字第四項中段修正為"},{"start":15812.751,"end":15839.982,"text":"主管機關應綜合考量鎖管特定關鍵基礎設施提供者業務之重要性與精密性知通系統之規模性質知通安全事件發生之頻率程度及其他與知通安全相關之因素定期集合其知通安全維護計畫之實施情形六項"},{"start":15841.323,"end":15868.841,"text":"聚首徵定特定兩個文字中段修正為維護計畫實施情形有缺失或帶改善者後段修正為應向中央目的事業主管機關提出改善報告第六項文字內容為中央目的事業主管機關應依資安署指定指方式將計合結果及改善報告送交資安署"},{"start":15870.802,"end":15893.177,"text":"文革如君等提案第22條第一項的中段修正為指定關鍵資通基礎設施提供者第二項的聚首修正為關鍵資通基礎設施提供者第三項也是聚首關鍵資通基礎設施提供者"},{"start":15894.81,"end":15918.114,"text":"第五項也是聚首關鍵自動接觸設施提供者第六項前段修正為中央目的事業主管機關應依主管機關指定之七日文字同行正面提案委員沈柏洋等提案第十九條中央目的事業主管機關應徵學相關公務機關民間團體專家學者意見後擬定關鍵基礎"},{"start":15923.055,"end":15950.242,"text":"事實提供之指定清單報請行政院核定以書面通知之其指定基準費指條件及程序由中央目的事業主管機關公告之文審博揚等提案第20條除第一項第二項第四項聚首沒有特定兩個文字外其餘同行政院提案的第二項第三項以及第五項"},{"start":15953.857,"end":15969.369,"text":"委員陳樹悅等提案第二十條 第二項中段修正為設置直通安全專職人員負責推動機關內治安相關事務第四項前段修正為"},{"start":15971.604,"end":15993.904,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關應定期綜合考量其文字同行政院提案第21條原條文第17條除委員葛如君、沈伯陽、賴瑞榮、陳樹越、林俊憲等提案外請與行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為"},{"start":15996.155,"end":16009.887,"text":"第一項 聚首修正為特定關鍵基礎設施中段修正為應符合其所屬資通安全責任等機制要求設置資通安全專職人員"},{"start":16013.223,"end":16032.736,"text":"第四項修正為重要目的是業主管機關因依資安署指定之方式將集合結果及改善報告送交資安署除以上修正外其文字均同進行條文委員葛如軍等提案第23條"},{"start":16035.885,"end":16056.658,"text":"第四項修正後文字內容為中央陸地事業主管機關應依主管機關指定之方式將集合結果及改善報告送交主管機關其餘同行政院提案委員沈伯陽等提案第21條第一項聚首文字修正為關鍵基礎設施提供者"},{"start":16061.701,"end":16073.817,"text":"七文字同行政院提案 委內容等提案第二十一條同委員沈伯陽等提案文成數月等提案第二十一條"},{"start":16076.035,"end":16097.962,"text":"第一項中斷後文字內容為因自資通安全長由特定非公務機關之代表人管理人其他有代表權人或其子派自適當人員擔任負責推動及監督機關內資通安全相關事務第二項的據守修正為前項之特定非公務機關中斷"},{"start":16100.885,"end":16122.968,"text":"中段修正後文字為設置之通安全專職人力並考量其所其所保有或處理之資訊種類第五項文字內容為中央目的事業主管機關應依資安署指定之方式將結合結果及改善報告送交資安署"},{"start":16126.688,"end":16149.627,"text":"維寧眷縣等16人提案第21條一項的據守文字內容沒有修正為關鍵基礎設施提供者其餘文字同行政院提案第22條原條文第16條第6項"},{"start":16156.587,"end":16183.633,"text":"除委員沈伯陽賴銳榮等提案外其餘行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為前兩條前兩條自動安全維護計畫之必要事項實施情形之提出集合自評例內容與方法結果之交互改善報告之提出及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央陸地事業主管機關擬定報由主管機關核定委員沈伯陽等提案第22條"},{"start":16185.934,"end":16207.62,"text":"第20條及前條之支通安全維護計劃必要事項實施情形之提出集合之頻率則定基準程序與方法結果之交互改善報告之提出及其他應遵循事項的辦法由中央目的事業主管機關擬定報由主管機關核定為內容等提案第22條"},{"start":16210.401,"end":16220.335,"text":"據首修正委前兩條資通安全維護計畫必要事項其與同委員沈伯陽等提案"},{"start":16221.294,"end":16245.114,"text":"中令第23條各提案文字均為第23條特定非公務機關應至知通安全長由特定非公務機關之代表人管理人其他有代表權人或其指派之適當人員擔任負責推動及監督機關內知通安全相關事務"},{"start":16247.082,"end":16266.552,"text":"第24條原條文第18條除委員葛如君、沈博洋、賴瑞榮、陳述、岳林俊憲、台灣民眾黨黨團等提案外期與行政院提案委員提案均為在第三項的部分默劇"},{"start":16268.021,"end":16294.517,"text":"修正為並應送交資安署第四項文字內容修正為前三項通報與應變機制之必要四項通報內容報告之提出送交演練作業及其他應遵循事項這辦法由主管機關定之第五項中央目的事業主管機關或資安署自吸重大資通安全事件時得提供相關協助於適當時機並得公告與"},{"start":16295.237,"end":16311.074,"text":"事件相關之必要內容及因應措施其五文字 同性行條文 文革如捐等提案第二書五條第五項修正為 中央目的事業主管機關或主管機關自息重大資通安全事件時應提供特定"},{"start":16312.625,"end":16340.265,"text":"非公務機關相關協助並得於適當時機公告與事件相關之必要內容及因應措施其文字同行正面提案委員審撥樣等提案第24條第5項後段修正為得提供特定非公務機關相關協助並於適當時機得公告與事件相關之必要內容及因應措施其文字同行正面提案委員內容等提案第24條同委員審"},{"start":16341.906,"end":16363.133,"text":"伯陽提案委員陳樹越等提案第23條第4項的後段修正為送交資安演練與調度資源作業等文字第5項聚首修正為中央目的事業主管"},{"start":16363.629,"end":16378.881,"text":"或資安署等文字中斷修正為需提供相關協助於適當時期並公告與事件相關資必要內容及因應措施其餘文字同行政院提案"},{"start":16381.303,"end":16401.187,"text":"為林郡縣等提案第24條同委員同委員沈博洋提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第24條在第5項的部分中段修正為應提供相關協助其文字同行政院提案"},{"start":16402.99,"end":16419.426,"text":"政令第25條除委員葛儒、君審、博洋、賴銳龍、林俊憲等提案外其與行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案軍委第25條中央目的事業主管機關為調查特定非公務機關發聲重大"},{"start":16423.294,"end":16439.507,"text":"知通安全事件得以下列程序辦理一通知當事人或關係人到場陳述意見二通知當事人及關係人提出獨立第三方機構出具制鑑識或調查報告三判員委任或委任"},{"start":16440.308,"end":16452.686,"text":"或委託其他機關苟前往當事人及關係人之處所實施必要之檢查前向鎖定關係人以該項特定非公務機關委託辦理資通系統之建置為運貨資通"},{"start":16455.45,"end":16477.114,"text":"服務提供之受託者且與重大自通安全事件相關者違憲受調查者對於重要目的是主管機關以第一項所為之調查不得規避妨礙或拒絕執行調查之人員因出示有關執行職務之這名文件其未出示者受調查者而拒絕之第一項第三款受委"},{"start":16477.734,"end":16489.15,"text":"任或委託之機關苟對於辦理事務任務受託事務所獲悉特定非公務機關之秘密不得洩漏文革如君等提案第26條"},{"start":16493.871,"end":16512.019,"text":"徵訂第六項文字內容為中央目的事業主管機關為調查特定被公務機關發生之重大資安致通安全事件請求主管機關協助時主管機關應提供其所需求之相關協助其文字同行政院提案委員審柏洋等提案第25條"},{"start":16515.582,"end":16527.582,"text":"第一項的前短修正為中央目的事業主管機關為辦理特定非公務機關發生重大支通安全事件之調查"},{"start":16531.448,"end":16558.671,"text":"第二項第二項的前段修正為以第一項特定非公務機關委託辦理自通系統自建制其文字同行政院提案委員賴日榮等提案第25條同委員沈伯陽提案委員林俊憲等提案第25條也是同委員沈伯陽提案"},{"start":16563.107,"end":16579.994,"text":"委員羅美玲等提案徵定第25條公務機關及特定非公務機關未依本法規定落實制通安全管理措施經主管機關集合後仍未改正者主管機關的依情情節輕重於處分處分方式包括"},{"start":16580.794,"end":16606.616,"text":"但不限於警告罰款及公布違規單位名稱等若違規情節重大主管機關得將其列入考核並追究相關責任人之管理責任增訂第26條各提案條文內容均為特定非公務機關對於屬屬人員辦理資通安全業務績效優良者應予獎勵"},{"start":16608.963,"end":16634.097,"text":"徵令第27條 除委員葛如君 沈博洋 黃姐 林俊憲 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案外期與行政院提案委員提案均為第27條 重要目的事業主管機關對特定非公務機關下載安裝或使用危害國家自通安全產品的予以限制或禁止特定非公務機關自行或為外經"},{"start":16635.077,"end":16659.304,"text":"或委外營運場所提供公眾視聽或使用之傳播設備及網際網路接取服務與維護資通安全之必要時一同但業務需求且無其他替代方案者經該特定非公務機關資通安全長核可含報中央目的事業主管機關核定後得以專案方式使用"},{"start":16660.605,"end":16676.999,"text":"並類測管理 前項對特定非公務機關限制或禁止使用危害國家自通安全產品資管控措施由中央目的事業主管機關訂定 報主管機關備查文革如君等人提案第28條"},{"start":16682.563,"end":16706.415,"text":"在第一項的中段文字內容為特定非公務機關自行或為外營運場所一同其文字同行支援提案委員審撥樣等提案第26條特定非公務機關不得採購及使用危害國家自通安全產品亦不得採購及使用大陸地區香港澳門境外"},{"start":16706.835,"end":16725.025,"text":"抵對設立或實質控制各類組織、機構、團體或人員提供自通服務、系統及設備及自行或外管理、提供公眾活動或使用之場地一同擔應業務需求且無其他替代方案者經機關自通安全長和可"},{"start":16726.245,"end":16746.919,"text":"韓報主管機關核定後等以專案方式構置並列冊管理特定非公務人員或配置業務用資通訊設備不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品亦不得下載安裝或使用大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織"},{"start":16750.161,"end":16762.066,"text":"機構、團體或人員提供之知通、服務及自通系統並應遵守相關法令規範特定非公務機關得向主管機關查詢第一項產品及其廠商為黃結等提案第27條"},{"start":16763.787,"end":16792.96,"text":"主要目的是業主管機關對特定非公務機關採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品或採購及使用陸資廠商或大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對設立或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機構團體或人民提供資資通服務系統及設備的予以限制或禁止以下同行這邊提案文字"},{"start":16795.99,"end":16825.174,"text":"委員林俊憲等提案第27條中央目的事業主管機關對特定非公務機關下載安裝或使用危害國家安全之自通安全產品或下載安裝或採購及使用依國家安全法第二條規定之大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力及其所設立或實施控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人提供之自通安全服務及產品的予以限制或"},{"start":16825.794,"end":16853.603,"text":"禁止特定非公務機關自行或國外營運場所提供公眾視聽或使用之傳播設備及網際網路接取服務與維護自通安全之必要時一同但因業務需求且無其他替代方案者經該特定非公務機關自通安全掌和可函報重要目的世界主管機關合併後得以專案方式使用並內徹管理前向對特定非公務機關限制或使用時"},{"start":16854.463,"end":16882.062,"text":"或禁止使用危害國家安全之滋通安全產品依國家安全法第二條規定之大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力及其所設立或實時控制之各類組織機構團體或其派遣之人提供之滋通安全服務及產品之管控措施由中央目的事業主管機關訂定報主管機關備查台灣民眾黨黨團提案序文的默劇"},{"start":16884.794,"end":16905.479,"text":"為並列冊管理及遵守下列規定 第一款至第三款文字內容為一 應指定特定區域及特定人員使用且不得傳播影像或聲音供不特定人士直接收視或收聽 二 控制理由消失或使用連線介面應立即銷毀"},{"start":16908.034,"end":16933.824,"text":"3.其他中央目的事業主管機關指定事項其餘文字同行政院提案第4張張明各提案均為修正同現行張明第28條原條文第19條除委員沈伯陽賴瑞榮等提案外其餘行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為在第一項的部分"},{"start":16935.647,"end":16956.937,"text":"文治內容為公務機關所屬人員未依本法規定辦理者應按其情節輕重依相關規定予以懲戒或懲處針對第三項特定非公務機關所屬人員未依本法規定辦理情節重大者由特定非公務機關依規定予以懲處"},{"start":16959.06,"end":16987.391,"text":"為沈博洋等提案第27條被修正為內容等提案第28條第三項文字內容為特定非公務機關所屬人員為依本法規定辦理情節重大者由特定非公務機關予以懲處其由目的事業主管機關或主管機關參與者應將懲處內容報目的事業主管機關被查其五文字同行正願提案"},{"start":16989.008,"end":17004.481,"text":"第29條原條文第21條初委員葛禄君審博洋陳樹越台灣民眾黨黨團等提案外其餘行政院提案委員提案軍委在前段的部分條文修正為第24條"},{"start":17006.443,"end":17020.412,"text":"其餘文字統新型條文 文革如軍等提案第31條前段的條文修正為第25條 其餘文字統新型條文委員審柏洋等提案第29條"},{"start":17023.51,"end":17045.723,"text":"在中段修正在中段有增訂文字或違反第26條第2項有關使用資通服務資通系統之規定及文字同行政院提案文成數月等提案第29條在前段的部分提案文修正為第23條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第29條在"},{"start":17051.502,"end":17053.735,"text":"前段的條文修正為第24條"},{"start":17056.195,"end":17084.158,"text":"後段後段的罰緩修正為新台幣30萬元以上1000萬元以下罰緩其文字同性性條文第30條原條文第20條除委員葛如君沈伯陽賴瑞龍黃傑成數月等提案外其餘行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為"},{"start":17086.161,"end":17088.306,"text":"在第一款"},{"start":17091.075,"end":17103.601,"text":"第一款的條文部分依序修正為第20條、第21條、第22條第二款條文依序修正為第20條、第21條、第22條第三款的條文依序修正為第8條第2項、第20條第5項或第21條第3項"},{"start":17117.25,"end":17146.449,"text":"以及中段的第22條第4款條文依序修正為第24條以及中段的第24條第5款修正文字為為第24條第3項規定向中央目的事業主管機關提出或向資安署送交資通安全事件之調查處理及改善報告或違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關報告提出送交資規定"},{"start":17147.67,"end":17169.548,"text":"第6款修正違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關通報內容迎面作業之規定文革如軍等提案第30條在第1款的條文依序修正第22條第23條第24條第2款的條文依序修正第22條第23條第24條第3款的條文依序修正"},{"start":17176.55,"end":17178.912,"text":"第8條第2項第22條第5項第23條第3項中段修正為第24條第4款條文"},{"start":17189.983,"end":17207.38,"text":"前段跟中段均修正為第25條第5款前段條文修正為第25條中段文字修正為互相主管機關送交之通安全事件之調查"},{"start":17208.301,"end":17224.129,"text":"後段條文修正為第25條 莫具修正為送交之規定第6款前段條文修正為第25條 莫具修正為有關通報內容 演練作業之規定 維生撥養等提案第28條在第3條"},{"start":17230.034,"end":17239.781,"text":"在第三在第三款的部分後段修正中段修正為第20條第4項"},{"start":17243.123,"end":17265.444,"text":"然後徵訂第7款文字內容違反第26條第1項有關使用採購資通服務資通系統及資通設備之規定其文字統行志願提案違反內容等提案第29條在第3款的部分中段徵訂"},{"start":17267.785,"end":17284.417,"text":"知安署 等文字第五款的中段修正為向中央目的試驗主管機關或知安署提交資通安全事件之調查其文字同行政院提案委員黃婕等提案第30條"},{"start":17287.935,"end":17305.962,"text":"徵訂第七款文字內容違規違反第27條第二項對特定非公務機關限制或禁止使用危害國家資通安全產品之管控措施其餘文字同行政院提案文程序列等提案第28條"},{"start":17309.591,"end":17323.687,"text":"在續文的部分罰款修正為按次處新代幣20萬元以上然後徵訂第一款文字內容為1"},{"start":17325.902,"end":17339.837,"text":"一為一第20條第2項或第21條第1項第2項規定設置直通安全長期資安專職人員資規定以下各款 第1"},{"start":17342.199,"end":17365.505,"text":"第五款條文裡面的條次依序修正為第23條以及中段的第23條第六款前段條次修正為第23條中段條次也是修正第23條第七款修正為違反第23條第四項鎖定辦法中有關通報內容"},{"start":17367.526,"end":17381.445,"text":"資安演練與調度資源作業之規定 增訂第31條 中委員葛禄君 陳旭瑞等提案外 其餘行政院提案 台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為"},{"start":17385.219,"end":17397.557,"text":"第31條違反第25條第3項規定規避妨礙或拒絕調查者由中央目的事業主管機關處心台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下罰款"},{"start":17400.785,"end":17429.768,"text":"委員葛如君等提案第32條前段的條次修正為第26條其餘文字同行政院提案委員陳淑月等提案第30條前段的條次修正為第24條其餘文字同行政院提案第5張張明各提案均未修正同縣行張明第32條原條文第6條除委員葛如君沈伯陽奈月容等提案外"},{"start":17430.348,"end":17443.288,"text":"其餘行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團委員提案均為在第一項的部分前段將或委託等文字"},{"start":17444.673,"end":17471.361,"text":"以及中斷法人或團體等文字予以刪除政變第二項資安署得委託其他公務機關辦理國家資通安全防護演練集合及其他資通安全相關事務第二項第一為第三項前段修正為前兩項受委託後據莫修正為所知悉之秘密"},{"start":17473.106,"end":17493.855,"text":"政令第四項文字內容為特定非公務機關之業務涉及數個重要目的事業主管機關之權者主管機關的協調指定其中一個或數個重要目的事業主管機關單獨或共同辦理本法所定重要目的事業主管機關應辦理之事項委員個如均等提案第三十三條"},{"start":17495.427,"end":17522.166,"text":"在第一項的在第一項的部分也是前段或委託等文字予以刪除第二項修正後文字為前項受委託之公務機關不得洩漏辦理相關事務過程中所窒息之秘密跟第三項文字內容為特定非公務機關之業務涉及數個重要目的是主管機關之權者主管機關的協調指定"},{"start":17524.187,"end":17538.545,"text":"其中一個或數個中央目的事業主管機關單獨或共同辦理本法所定中央目的事業主管機關辦理之事項委員審博洋等提案第31條主管機關未辦理自通安全"},{"start":17539.426,"end":17559.544,"text":"整體防護國際交流合作及其他自通安全相關事務 得委託所監督行政法人 其他公務機關法人或團體為之支安署為辦理國家自通安全防護演練集合及其他自通安全相關事務得委託其他公務機關法人或團體為之公務機關為辦理第15條第一項 第20條"},{"start":17561.386,"end":17586.238,"text":"第三項之幾何事項都委託所屬機關或委託其他公務機關法人或團體為之前三項受委任委託或負委託自公務機關法人或團體不得洩漏辦理相關事務過程中所窒息之秘密委內容等提案第32條同委員沈伯央等提案"},{"start":17593.539,"end":17620.829,"text":"維林郡縣等提案第32條主管機關為辦理資通安全整體防護國際交流合作及其他資通安全相關事務得委託其他公務機關為之 治安署為辦理國家資通安全防護演練及其他資通安全相關事務得委託其他公務機關為之第三項以及第四項同行政院提案"},{"start":17627.628,"end":17653.542,"text":"政定第33條 除委員沈伯陽、賴銳龍、林俊憲提案外其餘行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員提案均為第33條本法鎖定資通安全事件涉及個人資料外洩時公務機關及特定非公務機關應另依個人資料保護法及其相關法令規定辦理"},{"start":17655.526,"end":17684.21,"text":"委員沈博洋等提案第32條在中段的部分有多檔案兩個文字涉及個人資料檔案外泄式其餘文字同行政院提案委員賴銳榮等提案第33條同委員沈博洋提案委員林俊憲等提案第33條也是同委員沈博洋提案"},{"start":17685.546,"end":17697.181,"text":"委林俊憲等提案第五章張明負責第34條原條文第22條各提案條文內容均未修正"},{"start":17699.775,"end":17726.787,"text":"第35條原條文第23條除台灣民眾黨黨團提案外期與行政院提案委員提案均為本法施行日期由行政院定之台灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條第一項未修正第二項修正為本法中華民國某年某月某日修正公佈之條文自公佈後六個月施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":17737.443,"end":17744.63,"text":"宣讀完畢 本日會議作以下決議討論事項個案均另定期繼續審查本日會議結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"16622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16622","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc730853615cfad2726c0396a52a667796bd9360bdedb085224fa7ff32c81c10e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員羅智強等25人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十九條及第四百五十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員許智傑等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-24T08:31:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:37:00+08:00","duration":14744,"影片長度":"04:05:44","委員發言時間":"08:31:16 - 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現在開始開會進行報告事項 宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1875.06,"end":1902.457,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第十次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年四月二十三日星期三上午九十至下午一十五分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員陳佩玉委員等十二人列席委員葉元之委員等十一人列席官員司法院副秘書長王梅英等人主席吳兆吉委員宗憲報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二"},{"start":1904.778,"end":1929.001,"text":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、權序部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總署、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就選舉罷免程序中如何落實公務人員和政務官人員、司法人員、選務人員恪守行政中立"},{"start":1929.241,"end":1930.401,"text":"我們先請祖密補充報告"},{"start":1956.531,"end":1982.776,"text":"報告委員會出席委員11人 組法定人數好 謝謝請問各位就上次的會議事務有錯誤會議囉沒有的話會議事務確定接著我們介紹到常委員我們首先介紹羅志強委員王逸川委員那接著我們介紹應邀列席官員市法院副秘書長 王梅英副秘書長法務部常務次長 黃某信常務次長"},{"start":1985.267,"end":1986.969,"text":"好那我們接著再介紹到場陳瑛委員"},{"start":1990.359,"end":2019.318,"text":"其未介紹的列席代表請參議院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議程討論四項共計四案分別為並案審查委員羅志強等25人凝聚刑訴通法第116條之二條文修正草案等二案及審查委員陳培儀等16人凝聚刑訴通法第101條之一條文修正草案等案那本日進行提案說明報告及詢答現在進行提案說明及報告"},{"start":2020.319,"end":2032.258,"text":"那我們請先進行提案說明提案委員每位發言時間3分鐘那我們先請提案人羅志強委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2039.781,"end":2061.511,"text":"主席 在場委員還有我們列席的官員 大家早安根據刑事訴訟法第116條之二的規定法院許可停止羈押時經審酌人權保障及公共利益之均衡維護認為有必要者得定相當期間要求被告交付護照"},{"start":2062.651,"end":2086.916,"text":"旅行文件或者通知主管機關不予核發護照旅行文件但實務上會出現一個漏洞就是說當法院一開始沒有要求被告交付護照時後續就只能要求主管機關不核發護照無法依法註銷那只能透過行政函文的方式由司法機關向外交部來請求廢止"},{"start":2090.038,"end":2106.976,"text":"註銷棄保潛逃的犯的護照那不只是法源薄弱也曠日廢死那即使是依照護照條例的規定來進行行政註銷目前適用範圍也只限持照人在境外才能發函"},{"start":2107.196,"end":2118.485,"text":"如果持照人在境內其實就無法依照護照條例來註銷這也造成一些被告有機可乘可以棄保潛逃到境外去規避司法的制裁"},{"start":2119.215,"end":2140.908,"text":"那這樣的漏洞已經成為部分被告逃逸到境外的重要途徑對我們的司法違性跟社會治安都造成了威脅那根據媒體揭露的刑事局資訊目前在境外的棄保潛逃犯可能在8000人左右相當的多那這也是影響司法公正所以我才提案"},{"start":2141.648,"end":2170.415,"text":"修法要賦予法院主動通知主管機關協請註銷逃逸被告的護照跟旅行文件的權利那這樣的措施可以填補現在的治安漏洞來加強司法威信那我是最早提出這個修法的委員也和謝一鳳委員是這兩個提案的委員雖然提案的委員不多但我還是感謝法務部司法院警政署在這次報告裡都有肯定這個修法方向"},{"start":2171.095,"end":2186.242,"text":"所以我呼籲不分黨派不分行政立法機關我們一起來支持完成這個修法那盡快逐條審查看能不能在這個會起來拼三讀完成立法為我們司法體系跟社會治安提供更強有力的保障以上 謝謝"},{"start":2187.637,"end":2210.845,"text":"好謝謝羅志強委員那因為今天有四個提案一個是一個提案是國民黨委員提案那另外三個提案是民進黨的委員提案但是因為三位都沒有來所以我這邊先簡單的說明一下這個提案的內容我們今天的四個提案主要是各個不管是藍綠白委員大家的提案那我們進行"},{"start":2211.425,"end":2230.771,"text":"依照提案時間順序就直接進行處理那有兩個案子沒有提出來一個是雙偵查處體因為這個以前就曾經有人提過而且目前在實務上面的爭議過大所以我們這部分還在討論第二個是有關警察職任的規範那這個是陳廷飛委員所提的但是目前實務上"},{"start":2232.95,"end":2259.511,"text":"因為他是希望修在刑事訴訟法那跟目前實務上有很大差距那這個部分我們有就是說請陳委員是否如果說真的想排的話那可能看能不能協調周瑞雄委員去排這個提案那另外三個案子一個是陳培余委員所提的兒少性剝削條例因為再犯率高他認為有針列為預防羈押原因的必要性還有第三個案子陳寧菲委員所提到的檢疫判決的制度"},{"start":2260.191,"end":2273.55,"text":"他說檢疫判決制度原則上沒有應為詢問他認為這個部分是不是有進行到修法的必要所以因為有很多案子其實檢疫判決處刑他沒有開庭就直接法官就下判決結案"},{"start":2275.285,"end":2290.041,"text":"那這部分有沒有必要修改這是今天的提案內容那第四個案子是許智雄委員的提案他是認為說在特定情況下的非常上述是否由得提起改為應提起或對於該類的非常上述"},{"start":2290.501,"end":2311.83,"text":"案件有規定暫停暫時停止刑罰執行的必要性的相關修法所以以上因為因為今天只有第一案的羅委員有到場說明那另外三案的提案人陳佩瑜陳婷菲許智傑目前沒有到所以本席在這邊替他們三位先簡單的說明一下他們提案的內容"},{"start":2315.43,"end":2324.645,"text":"那我們現在接著就進行機關代表的報告那每位發言的時間為三分鐘我們先請司法院副秘書長王梅英報告那請法務部常務次長黃謀信接著報告 謝謝"},{"start":2332.817,"end":2348.193,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安那今天貴委員會病案審查刑事訴訟法修正草案本院奉邀前來列席報告那支報告如下敬請指教第一個是病案審查委員羅志強等25人"},{"start":2350.115,"end":2365.7,"text":"及委員謝依鳳等16人拟據的刑訴116-2條文的修正案那委員的提案呢立法意旨和護照條例第25條的規範目的是相同的所以本院竟表同意"},{"start":2366.44,"end":2391.698,"text":"第二點 審查委員陳培於等16人擬拒的刑訴101條之一條文修正案委員提案是考量兒少性剝削防治條例處罰的目的還有犯罪手段確實有反覆實行的高度蓋然性所以有預防性羈押的必要本院竟表同意"},{"start":2392.458,"end":2397.286,"text":"第三 審查委員陳廷飛等16人擬拒的刑訴449條及451之1條文修正草案"},{"start":2403.175,"end":2429.401,"text":"檢疫程序處理違罪程序對於司法資源有效分配它是具有實益的那在這個條文修正案中它限縮了檢疫程序的適用範疇這會涉及到了法院人力的分配資源的運用及一般刑訴程序的事實處理那這將影響人民對於司法效能的期待那本院是建議不予修正"},{"start":2431.332,"end":2459.008,"text":"個別條文的那個部分呢意見刑訴449第二項呢還有關於這個被告意見的表示部分他本來就已經可以透過同法第一項於必要時詢問被告來補足了那449條第三項呢現行是以宣告型來區分輕微案件作為適用檢疫程序的要件那這也沒有違反設計的那個目的"},{"start":2459.969,"end":2479.224,"text":"那再下來451-1的條文呢那從法制面觀察當事人意識表示核制之後要撤回意識表示有一定的限制這時候好像沒有再去區分更細節的區分的必要這建議左處另外審查委員許智傑等22人拟據了刑訴441條修正草案"},{"start":2481.586,"end":2510.1,"text":"非常上訴制度呢它主要是在糾正裁判的錯誤統一法令的適用啊那它不在於具體個案的救濟草案呢是以具體個案救濟有利與否來當作提起非常上訴制度的要件那這個是不是和非常上訴的功能相符合本院見請再著那以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2510.694,"end":2512.945,"text":"好謝謝副秘書長那接著我們請黃謀信長賜報告"},{"start":2519.822,"end":2546.842,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天奉邀貴人會代表本部列席並被質詢報告如下有關於第一案羅志強等25人以及第二案謝鳳等16委員領據刑訴法1.6條之二條件修正長案部分關於GRT代主部分新增主管機關得以註銷的護照跟旅行文件規定這兩部分本部都競表同意"},{"start":2547.322,"end":2565.739,"text":"另外有關於這個謝議委員等16人所凝聚的部分是否條文要另外加一個通知主管機關廢止並註銷因為廢止跟註銷它兩個在法律上性質不同那恐導致未來在解釋適用上產生疑議這部分在未來主條討論的時候本部再行補充"},{"start":2566.48,"end":2580.117,"text":"那另外有關第二案陳培宇委員等16人所擬聚的101條之一預防性羈押修正的部分那有關加入預防性羈押有關於這個兒少細胞血防制條例36條第一項第二項第三項38條第一項"},{"start":2583.682,"end":2608.161,"text":"等這個犯罪的部分本部也競表同意那本部也希望有關於這個兒少性迫切條例的第4條第5條有關意圖營利的未遂犯還有第38條第3項的意圖營利以及未遂犯還有我們新增的刑法有關性隱私不適應項的部分都是同樣屬於性隱相的犯罪這部分是否一併要納入預防性羈押的部分也請大院審酌"},{"start":2609.322,"end":2638.137,"text":"第三案有關於這個陳理非委員16人所擬具的449條及451條之一條人修正部分那這部分呢增加了許多程序上的規定使原來的檢疫程序這個慢慢的這個接近於這個通常審計通常的程序不僅這個不符合我們原來的制度的設計目的反而可能增加未來法院的負擔偏離了這個訴訟經濟跟資源有效分配的改革初衷"},{"start":2638.797,"end":2654.671,"text":"所以這個而且現行法對於檢疫判決處刑已經有相關的被告的權益保障以及救濟制度那是否有修正的必要提醒大院再行審訟另外有關於許智源委員等22人所擬聚的刑處441條修正的部分"},{"start":2655.131,"end":2675.712,"text":"那本不時認為草案把規定成應提起非常上訴跟非常上訴制度的目的相抵觸這部分見請再酌至於草案部分應暫時停止執行的部分呢這部分是不是有暫時停止執行是不是有憲法上重大的原則跟人權上保障做必要而跟其他的違背法令必須要做相"},{"start":2676.753,"end":2701.991,"text":"區別的待遇這部分是不是有違法律的平等原則跟法的安定性這部分也請大院進行審酌 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝市長那其餘提出書面報告機關有無口頭補充那沒有的話機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2703.952,"end":2720.991,"text":"提案說明及報告機關已經進行完畢現在進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那我們現在請登記第一位王逸川委員發言"},{"start":2735.342,"end":2749.748,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請這個移民署外交部跟法務部麻煩移民署外交部及法務部上台 謝謝委員好好"},{"start":2751.568,"end":2777.833,"text":"先請教移民署的同仁我們這個國人出國如果這一個出境的過程中系統顯示這一位不能出國那你們通常會是譬如說接到司法機關的要求上面有註明這個人為什麼不能出國是這樣的狀況嗎大部分是這樣的狀況那這一個我再請教一下法務部"},{"start":2780.082,"end":2808.374,"text":"司法機關包括法院或者是各地的檢察署認為相關的人要限制他出境限制他出境程序上你們就會通知移民署說這個人限制他出境不管用什麼方式就通知移民署請問你通知他以後他持有中華民國護照他就不能出境了"},{"start":2809.264,"end":2810.856,"text":"那跟他有沒有這本護照會有關係嗎"},{"start":2815.362,"end":2844.922,"text":"就是說他的護照沒有被廢止也沒有被註銷嘛可是移民署那一關你已經通知他我們是對人 這個特定人進行限制出境對對 這個人限制出境嘛那他還是持有中華民國的護照對 他有沒有持有中華民國護照這個人已經被限制出境啦他持有中華民國護照他當然也會被限制出境啦對那現在這個羅志強委員跟謝易鳳委員兩位的提案實務上有沒有可能說這個你們沒有通知移民署"},{"start":2845.902,"end":2870.672,"text":"可是呢 卻通知了外交部 註銷他的護照呃 這個是兩個不同的處分啊我知道 現在的狀況 現在的問題就是說這兩個可以並行的對 兩個並行 看起來是雙保險可是 理論上是 只要通知移民署只要通知移民署 不管他還有什麼護照通知移民署 這個人就不能出國了嘛"},{"start":2872.315,"end":2882.359,"text":"對那不會有一種情形是你沒有通知移民署但是呢你通知了外交部請外交部去廢止或什麼註銷他的護照嗎"},{"start":2884.468,"end":2913.588,"text":"報告委員 它是兩個不同的羈押的替代處分嘛那有可能啦但現實上當檢察官或法官它有可能兩個羈押替代處分都並行但有沒有可能它只做註銷而沒有限制它出境在這個實務上它就產生了有可能嗎因為個案上它的檢察官或法官判斷我們沒有辦法預測啦因為它是不同的羈押的替代處分嘛所以就是說也有可能是它的這個護照已經被廢止了"},{"start":2914.884,"end":2941.138,"text":"最後也被註銷了因為你們提到廢紙跟註銷是兩件事它被廢紙也被註銷了可是移民署那邊沒有被限制出境當然這涉及到外交部因為我們註銷他的護照這是要外交部跟移民署之間的行政上的聯繫我們註銷是對他的護照註銷我們限制出境我們直接講完就通知移民署他就出不去了"},{"start":2942.233,"end":2966.871,"text":"所以移民署才會是他能不能出去的關鍵嗎他最後把關的好那第二就是說這個把這一個這個國人他的這個護照給註銷了那全世界會不會知道我們現在因為因為我們不是Interpol的這個這個國際刑警組織的會員就不會有全世界知道這件事情"},{"start":2967.915,"end":2981.309,"text":"譬如說他假設這個人他這個在這個司法機關還沒通知移民署之前他就拿了中華民國護照出境跑去日本了"},{"start":2982.403,"end":2985.948,"text":"那跑去日本呢 這個司法機關說 哎呀 早去日本啦這個人現在要給他通緝啦然後呢 這個是已經跑了嘛 對不對那這個外交部啊 就廢止他的護照 註銷他的護照可是他還可以拿著這本護照前往澳洲 對不對"},{"start":2999.79,"end":3024.402,"text":"但是他出 他在那個國家 他所在地的國家 因為我們已經註銷他的護照他離境或幹嘛 他會要護照啊 那個國家就會知道他已經沒有護照啦他護照已經被中華民國註銷啦教授 我剛問你說我們把他註銷了以後那個國家會知道 那有人應該提問是全世界會不會知道他前往的國家 他入境日本的那個因為他護照已經被中華民國註銷 他離境的時候當然就會知道了"},{"start":3024.778,"end":3053.584,"text":"他離境日本的時候會知道那他如果在你註銷之前他就離開日本他就跑去澳洲了那又回到下一個國家下一個國家他同樣要離境的時候也會知道下一個國家就是澳洲第三個國家他也會知道他的護照被註銷了所以他要再前往第四個國家的時候他就會沒有護照了他就出不去了這就涉及到他所在地的國家要做怎麼樣的行政上的移民上的處理好 謝謝"},{"start":3055.031,"end":3070.686,"text":"那外交部有提到說如果羅委員跟謝一鳳委員等人的提案如果通過以後你們要修改這個護照條例請問修的內容大概會是什麼因為我看你們護照條例的第25條25條的內容是廢紙並註銷"},{"start":3077.472,"end":3097.112,"text":"那這個我看法務部給的意見說廢紙並註銷這樣的文字並不是很妥適可是我看護照條例的內容就是先有一段是廢紙後面才有一段叫並註銷那這個文字上會怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":3099,"end":3126.666,"text":"跟委員報告那如果說在修正的版本是採取委員剛才所講的這樣的一個版本通過之後呢那實務上可能會發生一種情況是說當事人他可能沒有申請護照又或者他所持的這個護照呢已逾越了效期所以草案裡面所提到的廢紙並註銷那這部分在執行上面的話就變成說他沒有可以註銷的課題"},{"start":3128.366,"end":3150.676,"text":"那這邊的話我們的領事事務局會去延期就是說以目前實務的做法而言的話那可能文字上要去做一些調整就把並改成或這樣的一個文字上的修正可是你們25條就是已經是廢止原護照之處分並註銷該護照25條原來的現在的護照條例是這邊的話"},{"start":3159.025,"end":3187.708,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為實務上的確是有可能發生過所持的護照是預約效期所以用病這個字眼的話可能跟目前實務上的做法我們可能會再去做一個通盤的一個檢討所以如果這一個案子如果通過的話就護照條例的第25條裡頭的那些文字啊你們應該會去做我們會再去做整個通盤的檢討去因應目前實務上的做法去做一個比較"},{"start":3188.729,"end":3207.287,"text":"正確的或是說比較妥適的那這一部分就再跟法務部或司法院大家就文字上因為現在看起來你們那個貨或者是病有一些實務執行上可能會有一些爭議最後我請教一個問題就是說如果司法機關最後誤會一場"},{"start":3212.377,"end":3238.252,"text":"誤會一場 我把你的護照給廢紙 又把你註銷了最後誤會一場 沒事那他怎麼樣再回覆他的護照跟我們報告就是說因為目前我們廢紙或是註銷護照按護照條例都是經過司法機關或者是軍法機關的一個通知那實務上現行的做法的話大部分的當事人會提起一個溯源的一個救濟程序"},{"start":3238.692,"end":3256.562,"text":"那在救濟的程序階段我們會再去審視原來通知領事事務局然後去註銷或是廢止護照的原機關有沒有改變原來的處分如果沒有的話那我們這邊就不會去做更動那並且會建議如果當事人他覺得說這是一個誤會異常"},{"start":3257.563,"end":3285.609,"text":"那他的正伴應該是跟原來註銷或是廢紙護照的機關也就是司法機關去提起救濟那這個部分如果原來的司法機關認為說他護照是誤會註銷或是廢紙護照的室友是誤為一場的話那他會再通知我們那我們會把原來的處分給撤銷掉那他是要重新申請不用 他撤銷掉的話他護照或者是被廢紙的那處分那他護照可能在海外被你們沒收啦是"},{"start":3286.806,"end":3315.685,"text":"那他就要重新申請了是那這部分就算他自己去負擔了是吧這部分這可以考量一下是就是說因為是司法機關通知嘛你們就把他這個註銷了嘛對那後來後來這個審完了就決定說這個其實沒有沒有那沒有的話這個當事人後面的這個程序請你們在後面的這個處理上也要納入考量好"},{"start":3317.165,"end":3317.185,"text":"市長"},{"start":3319.229,"end":3345.966,"text":"因為這可能是涉及到行政處分的救濟啦那因為我們通知他那個外交部就會做一個行政處分嘛那對這行政處分的救濟事實上如果到後來發生委員所講的那就是我們行政程序法上他就是處分後後來發生一個新事實新證據的話這個時候我們可以去撤銷原來的行政處分所以這是對行政處分救濟的這個制度上設計我們現行法的行政程序法事實上有他的相關就有這樣的規定了好 謝謝"},{"start":3350.229,"end":3368.235,"text":"謝謝王委員 那我們下一位請陳培裕委員發言好 謝謝主席 那有請法務部還有司法院 謝謝麻煩法務部司法院"},{"start":3369.568,"end":3385.18,"text":"委員早安好早安那我想我們就直接切入我們辦公室提案的修法那事實上在相關的兒少案件兒少性影像案件當中其實社會上普遍越來越擔心那確實在全世界跟台灣的數字都是逐年上升的所以呢當時在報導者裡面"},{"start":3387.602,"end":3401.928,"text":"這個檢察官他們就有一個建議說法越修越重但不一定好用例如說如果我們把持有者的罰則定在三年那法官在審視的法律要件可能就會越來越嚴格不一定判得下去所以當時我們看到報導中的建議是說應該回歸到修法"},{"start":3406.25,"end":3424.571,"text":"讓檢警在辦案的時候阻力比較小比較可以起到嚇阻作用因此我們辦公室也就提出修法那當然這個修法我們也跟很多第一線的實務工作者討論所以今天也要聽聽你們的意見在今天的提案當中我們非常謝謝法務部跟司法院給予我們的修法意見"},{"start":3425.171,"end":3445.518,"text":"那基本上你們給的修法意見大致上跟我們聽到第一線實務工作者的意見是相近的那所以這一次我們的提案修法就是放在兒少性剝削條例當中我們希望把嫌疑重大有事實足認為有反覆實行同一犯罪之餘而有羈押之必要者的行為人"},{"start":3446.538,"end":3468.114,"text":"讓他們可以有被羈押的法源所以在我們原本的提案文字當中我沒有把兒少性剝削條例第36條第4項意圖營利犯罪第5項未遂犯規定放到提案裡面可是我看到法務部給我們相關建議所以我想應該是有機會納入討論空間這邊可不可以請法務部幫我們說明一下"},{"start":3469.758,"end":3488.164,"text":"各位委員報告我們提案中已經說明不只那個意圖犯跟未遂犯甚至有關於刑法上面也有相關的同樣是有關於性影像犯罪的部分我們認為這些犯罪在性質上它都有可能有反覆實施同一犯罪質疑所以這部分我們也建議一併的來考量是否一併的列入我們的這個預防性羈押的事由"},{"start":3488.484,"end":3509.987,"text":"好謝謝你們的建議喔好那我們來看下一張下一張一樣是同樣的條文那目前我們辦公室的提案版本我只放了兒少性剝削條例第38條第一項可是如同法務部剛剛提醒38條第三項意圖營利犯罪第四項未遂犯的規定未遂犯雖然未達所謂的計稅程度但行為人已經著手"},{"start":3510.287,"end":3526.667,"text":"那如果不是因為偶發的因素沒有辦法完成犯罪其實我們仍然認為它具有高度危險性跟再犯的可能所以尤其是意圖引力的部分我們甚至認為它可能會涉及所謂的組織犯罪系統性犯罪尤其是現在的網路平台"},{"start":3527.148,"end":3543.326,"text":"一旦跟這個相關結合我們認為對社會對兒少的危害性就會更高那這邊我剛提到的部分我希望後續如果真的有機會我們進行逐條審查我們自己會提出修正動議但我也想要聽一下司法院或者是你們認為在這個階段你們可以針對我們這個建議跟討論做出什麼樣的具體準備"},{"start":3547.356,"end":3550.339,"text":"第一個司法院立場是贊同修法除了剛才所說的36條第4項第5項這個應該要徵修之外"},{"start":3563.149,"end":3577.74,"text":"那38條他同樣的第二項那個意圖散布而持有還有第三項這個意圖引起犯罪第四項的這個未遂犯我們也是建議應該也都有同樣的那個相同的那個立法的理由是"},{"start":3579.991,"end":3602.058,"text":"還有在報告裡面我們看到法務部有提醒我們刑法319之一到之四妨礙性隱私還有不實性隱向的部分其實衛福部也有跟我們討論到這個部分我認為未來如果有機會應該可以一起討論也許在修法的時候我們後續可以做一起努力這個時候我想要先謝謝你們所有提供的正面建議後續我們再一起努力"},{"start":3602.618,"end":3626.616,"text":"那接下來我要談到為什麼這次修法我們會做這些事情事實上這幾年新型態的兒少性剝削影像犯罪條例的樣態不只是數量上升它樣態也變得越來越多元我們先來看統計的相關通報件數在美國2023年兒童性剝削影像通報件數2018年的兩倍在英國的研究中全世界大概有12.6%的兒童是文字或影像的網路兒少性剝削受害者"},{"start":3631.36,"end":3655.95,"text":"在前兩天台灣也有相關數字喔也是說在很多網路的事件當中確實跟影像性剝削有關我們來看一下衛福部的數字衛福部給我們的數字呢到昨天為止到去年已經突破三千件而且我要說這還是有報案有通報的我們相信有更多是不敢告訴家長不敢告訴老師而沒有通報的所以在這個報導當中我也想要問喔"},{"start":3656.65,"end":3670.472,"text":"面對兒童性剝削案件的管轄權跟羈押條件認定的問題那在修法完成之前因為我們都知道修法比較慢在修法完成之前司法院這邊有沒有什麼機制可以強化內部的溝通"},{"start":3674.594,"end":3692.658,"text":"謝謝委員提那個垂尋這個問題因為確實網路犯罪它的特性跟實體像打架或發生一個什麼就是這種是不一樣的那如果說是採傳統的這一種對於管轄認定一定要僵化在那個犯罪行為地或者是那個行為人駐居所的話這個確實會很僵化"},{"start":3694.938,"end":3712.087,"text":"那如果說採一個最廣的就只要就是說你上電腦去連結這就是犯罪行為地的話就取得管轄權的話這個有很多就是疑問的部分這會變成好像全世界每個地方都會是那個就好像又過於寬鬆對是是"},{"start":3714.088,"end":3730.599,"text":"那所以就是說怎麼樣去調整就是說在傳統的認定之外對於設置網頁或者是電子郵件的主機或者是傳輸資料這些主機的地方甚至於有進一步的實際交易的這些"},{"start":3731.48,"end":3749.812,"text":"是不是都把他認定成那個就是是有管轄的因素我覺得這都可以考慮的那我們那個司法院呢我們一定會積極的就是說研議就是說看是開諮詢會議或者是透過委託案那但是必須時效上我們要盡快然後之後再跟那個法官們宣達"},{"start":3750.572,"end":3767.882,"text":"以上好 謝謝司法院非常正向的回應確實如同您剛剛說的樣態真的非常非常多元而且可能我們還在請專家學者做研究的所有這些科技犯案的形態又與時俱進所以那可能不是我們可以防範但我想我們有這個正向的態度是很重要的"},{"start":3768.342,"end":3787.79,"text":"也會對於第一線檢調人員會讓他們更有信心那延續我們剛剛對兒少事件的討論這幾年我們在協助非常多兒少校園事件不管是性侵、霸凌或者是所謂體育相關教練的不當對待其實很多時候是來自於結構性的惡意或者是不作為但我們就會討論到可能有國賠的可能性"},{"start":3790.891,"end":3808.062,"text":"可是事實上我們來看一下國家賠償法第八條說賠償請求權自請求權人知有損害時間期因為兩年之間沒有行使就會消滅自損害發生時期欲五年者一同也就是說其實大部分的被害人或者是家長他們身邊的監護人"},{"start":3810.183,"end":3833.897,"text":"通常在處理案件的當下已經焦頭爛額了他們可能甚至不知道有這個國賠的可能更不要講這個時效我們來看一下南投劉玉成校長這個案子他在任教的34年期間他涉嫌對多名女學生有性侵害性騷擾的行為被害者受理人數高達將近29人這只是至少可能還有些孩子不敢出面說"},{"start":3834.857,"end":3845.722,"text":"那我們會發現這個受害者的困境在國賠法這邊其實我覺得有很多時候是錯過國賠的實現所以我們也很想問看看在這個部分我們有沒有機會進行進一步的討論"},{"start":3849.847,"end":3873.222,"text":"謝謝那個除了委員所說這個國家賠償之外就是那個犯罪被害人他還有可能可以取得這個犯罪被害那個補償金那司法院對於就是犯罪被害人的權益其實都相當重視所以我們有一個表單就是那個就是在一開庭的時候通知的時候都會附隨去很詳細的告訴被害人這個是司法院這邊的法"},{"start":3874.423,"end":3875.363,"text":"這個有機會在多久以內完成"},{"start":3894.55,"end":3918.484,"text":"應該這個禮拜這個馬上 我們回去馬上可以做了好 然後當然是要布達下去了好 這個非常非常的重要所以 那我想就這個部分我們再來看一下所以我們還要談的是剛國配的部分如果可以這樣解決我們事先提醒所謂的被害人跟他們的家庭讓他們有相關專業的協助那所以這邊我想你剛剛的回應很快那我們就期待你們後續趕快給我們相關的進度好"},{"start":3919.304,"end":3945.652,"text":"那再來那範保法輻射證的部分相關機制我們也希望後續可以開啟一併的討論那最後還剩下一點點時間我想要講一下關於首長會議的部分我知道其實你們都會開所謂司法首長會議那根據上個上一次我有質詢關於竹北虐童案相關的人棄保潛逃這個事情有沒有機會在司法首長會議當中我們先不打相關的可能性或是行政措施上可以怎麼樣改善"},{"start":3949.113,"end":3969.154,"text":"那個根果原報告確實就是說在法院審理當中就是發生這個虐童的被告棄保潛逃這個司法院這個是絕無旁貸就是我們一定要那個深自檢討那有關於這個那個部分呢就是說還是要解釋一下說在那個偵查中"},{"start":3971.179,"end":3996.904,"text":"檢察官申請羈押跟就是說偵查結束之後呢檢察官他做了一個決定就是起訴之後然後這個人法院移到法院來法院職權的去做一個決定就是有關於這個羈押處分這兩個是不太一樣那過去因為法律也沒有規定說要有那個通知檢察官的這一個規定沒有相關的法院規範所以我其實是那我們現在就是說我們會立刻做那個檢討就是"},{"start":3999.825,"end":4024.952,"text":"讓他更周延更完善那個制度就是一個是那個通知那一個就是說其他還有就是之後的那一些那個送達這些我們都會那個完備然後在各種那個場合首長會議這個是一個那一個是我們日前我們已經把相關的這些立稿那通函就是發布到各法院去就是這些相關的改善措施啊所以已經發下去了嗎"},{"start":4025.752,"end":4046.523,"text":"對 因為其實我知道你們很積極要來跟我們說明跟討論這件事情可以怎麼樣亡羊補牢把它補救回來所以我們也看到你們非常積極的態度所以我想這邊就是再次跟您確認我們希望後續不管是需要法規範的法源依據或者是透過行政命令我們就可以去確保這件事情我認為看到這個亡羊補牢的事情我們都非常的"},{"start":4047.443,"end":4057.551,"text":"感謝你們至少我們在這件事情上非常積極的去做這個事情那也希望後續如果有相關進度報告再給我們辦公室一個相關的回覆好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員那下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":4080.118,"end":4105.269,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請司法院副秘書長 法務部次長兩位好 今天所提的刑事訴訟法相關的修正其中針對441條的部分 我必須要老實說立法規定"},{"start":4106.913,"end":4134.237,"text":"檢查總長在一個非常特殊的情況下應啊應啊提起非常上訴而且只有在這種情況下要應啊停止刑罰的執行我們先搞清楚喔判刑確定了以後才有非常上訴的問題非常上訴是為了要統一法律見解"},{"start":4135.79,"end":4161.305,"text":"給檢察總長相關的職權可以審酌在立法例上兩位有沒有看過在一個特定的狀況判決確定以後檢察總長應提起非常上訴而且還只有在這種特定的狀況應停止刑罰的執行兩位有看過這種立法嗎報告沒有 這還現行的法不一樣"},{"start":4162.833,"end":4190.064,"text":"法務部有看過嗎?當然沒有,因為他是一個非常究極制度他叫例外啦,不是說他不是在究極個案他是在一個法律的統一解釋所以有沒有去了解這個修法草案從哪裡來的?你不知道嘛我跟你講從哪裡來的我從上一次在立法院的時候啊我就開始在追蹤啊中資"},{"start":4191.465,"end":4215.823,"text":"在炒作我們大同股票的事情這事情我追了非常非常久那當然有一個人叫做任國隆後來被通緝跑了中國人另外一個是台商鄭文藝這個在政界非常有名非常有名長袖善舞終於"},{"start":4216.926,"end":4240.683,"text":"判刑確定去年夏天的時候判刑確定去年我開始就發現整個過程錯不可聞我為什麼說錯不可聞去年四月的時候我看到有民進黨的立委提案在變更政交法還有企業併購法的犯罪構成要件"},{"start":4241.96,"end":4251.47,"text":"而且變更的犯罪構則要件基本上就是鄭文藝在訴訟當中所提出來的辯詞我一看就知道"},{"start":4253.186,"end":4276.311,"text":"一個修債政交法一個修債企業併購法系出同門啦系出同門啦所以我去年四月的時候看到這一種幫不孝的奸商跟中國人勾結的個案式的修法我毫不客氣啊我在院會裡面我就提案程序退回連討論的價值都沒有啊幫中資"},{"start":4281.651,"end":4309.58,"text":"來台灣炒股票判刑確定對不起我修正還在審判進行當中變更犯罪構成要件想要用刑法重新重新的原則我是完全無法忍受我去年四月我就直接在院會提案退回程序委員會審都不准審計謀失敗了以後去年七月判刑確定"},{"start":4311.155,"end":4321.041,"text":"判刑確定了以後今天這個提案又跑出來了去年十月的時候提的幫他創造剛剛我跟兩位所說的獨步全球從來沒看過非常上述是這樣用的修法"},{"start":4332.967,"end":4360.143,"text":"不僅檢查總長應當他提起非常上述啊而且一提起非常上述啊應停止刑罰的執行人就要放出來啊我把這個法案啊丟給一些法界的人看大家看完了以後是嘆為觀止啊那要不要直接提案修法說應判他沒有罪這樣就好了我今天敢在這邊公開講"},{"start":4362.045,"end":4389.737,"text":"我就是看不下去啊哪裡來的膽子啊幫這種進行個案式的修法臭不可聞啊到時候討論的時候啊我希望提案的兩個委員來司法法制委員會說清楚講明白啊這到底是怎麼回事啊司法院 法務部 贊不贊成這個修法"},{"start":4391.949,"end":4407.115,"text":"委員報告我們的立場在報告中講得很清楚就是反對這個修法法務部我們報告也寫得非常清楚反對這個法的修法立場站穩立場站穩這件事情我一定盯到尾我清楚地講我明確地我不僅明確地反對台灣社會要搞清楚這種臭不可聞的法案到底是從哪裡出來的"},{"start":4424.844,"end":4436.412,"text":"我講的話我負責啦去看啦鄭文藝判刑確定了以後就要主張什麼原判決來不及適用我們新修正的刑事訴訟法增訂的211條之一來進行審判程序"},{"start":4442.649,"end":4459.728,"text":"審判進行當中法律有變更沒有新適用新的程序導致判刑確定所以檢察總長應幫他提起非常上述量身打造 斧鑿斑斑我一看就知道了騙得了外行人騙不了法律人主管機關站穩腳步第二個我要問"},{"start":4464.807,"end":4490.558,"text":"又是另外一個奇怪的案子中文字中文字現在跑了啦兩邊大家互踢皮球該追究的責任去追究之前我就講過了中文字這個詐騙金融犯關係很好關係很好造成社會上面一堆人的傷害造成的傷害我說啊之前"},{"start":4492.267,"end":4520.259,"text":"有一個詐騙資本市場的案子在那個詐騙資本市場的案子裡面啊法院都看不下去啊檢察官起訴的全部都是下面的手下自己的妹妹下面的手下首腦中文字根本沒起訴在判決裡面白紙黑字寫啊說首腦是中文字啊但是我們沒有辦法判為什麼沒辦法判檢察官沒起訴"},{"start":4522.148,"end":4542.689,"text":"我那時候人不在立法院但我看到這件事情我非常火大我那時候直接用公益揭秘吹哨者保護協會我提了告發我告發了以後我一直等我從去年開始問我告發的案子到哪裡去了睡著了嗎"},{"start":4543.925,"end":4566.353,"text":"今年我繼續問上次法務部部長在這邊的時候我有質詢過嘛部長說他會去了解結果我昨天啊終於收到了終於收到起訴書了我終於收到起訴書了終於把中文字提起公訴了但我現在就看不懂我看完起訴書裡面的證據"},{"start":4570.748,"end":4599.66,"text":"我看完了以後是有哪些證據是前案偵查的時候沒有查出來的我完全看不出來有哪些證據是前案偵查沒有查出來的我公開講啦這種錯誤可聞的案子絕對把手腦放了拖了半天更荒謬的是什麼根本沒有什麼新的偵查作為啊"},{"start":4601.383,"end":4630.278,"text":"全部的證據就在本來的卷裡面啊當初做不起訴處分連法院都看不下去啊來看一下我紅色框框框起來案經台灣公益皆必及缺少者保護協會及台灣高等法院告發偵辦所以還不是只有我告發連高等法院都看不下去直接告發這麼簡單的案子沒有新的偵查作為可以拖兩年多餒"},{"start":4631.653,"end":4660.475,"text":"可以拖兩年多欸拖兩年多更好笑的是什麼更好笑的是等到中文字跑了才起訴中文字現在人跑啦跑了才起訴他來請教一下法務部部長是人跑了知道人跑了才要起訴嗎各位報告那具體這個戈瀚新北地監署檢察官他在這兩年內做了哪些偵查的作為老實講我們是不清楚的他必須要看整個相關的卷證"},{"start":4663.595,"end":4691.24,"text":"我公開這樣講啦就是因為社會上面大家挫折感非常深我為什麼說挫折感非常深每一次都說尊重司法獨立個案偵查我們大家都尊重啊大家都尊重啊問題是什麼尊重司法獨立個案偵查並不代表出現這種臭不可聞的案子社會公眾不能監督啊"},{"start":4692.318,"end":4716.912,"text":"在搞什麼東西啊所有的犯罪事實在本來見證都有要不然高院的法官怎麼會直指他就是犯罪手拿拖了兩年多人跑了現在才起訴這樣子的偵辦作為請教一下法務部次長你覺得值得社會大眾尊重嗎"},{"start":4718.803,"end":4747.354,"text":"各位報告當然社會大眾期待甲官能夠進出甄解這個相關的個案啦當然本部在相關的行政管考上面也會要求有相關的行政管考甲官要進出我講兩件事齁第一件事情本來卷證裡面的資料就已經直指他是犯罪首腦那要不然高院審判的時候那法官膽子那麼大喔敢直接在判決書裡面寫首腦是中文字如果卷證資料裡面沒有的話法官敢這樣講喔"},{"start":4751.019,"end":4768.949,"text":"結果上一個案子不起訴處分把他放了等到我告發拖兩年多中文字人跑了然後才起訴這樣子的偵辦作為值得社會大眾尊敬嗎值得大家尊重嗎我只問簡單的這件事情"},{"start":4773.558,"end":4786.793,"text":"當然跟委員報告 我跟委員報告那社會期待是檢察官對相關的狀況就能夠盡速的癥結嘛那這個個案 他個案上他為什麼拖這麼久當然他有他一定有他的原因啦那我們行政管考上我們有要求檢察官要在一定期限內癥結這個個案"},{"start":4789.178,"end":4808.014,"text":"我這樣說好了啦我願意啊給法務部時間我也願意給高檢署時間因為我知道在權責上法務部沒有辦法直接管道地檢嘛你們大概就把意見反映給高度檢署的檢察長嘛由高檢署的檢察長自己去處理嘛我這樣說明有沒有錯"},{"start":4809.844,"end":4838.732,"text":"我給高檢署充分的時間因為下一次可以遇到台灣高等檢察署檢察長的時候應該是下個會期審預算的時候準備好 準備好我也希望回去次長轉告台灣高檢署的檢察長準備好這件事情 臭不可聞啦要給台灣社會一個交代要不然公平正義在哪裡這種有權有勢有民進黨撐腰的就可以這樣搞"},{"start":4844.535,"end":4847.107,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 下一位我們請沈發慧委員發言"},{"start":4870.883,"end":4894.311,"text":"主席我們請王副秘書長副秘書長法務部要嗎?先請副秘書長副秘書長,謝謝委員早安副秘書長早安,我們今天回到我們今天的所列議程我們今天總共刑事訴訟法有四個法條的修法"},{"start":4895.472,"end":4917.779,"text":"那這個我都看了這個我們司法院包括法務部的這個相關的報告書面報告大概了解說了解了我們司法院跟法務部對這四個法條的修法的態度那這裡面有一些部分我可能就要跟這個我們請法務部也這個次長一起上來好了"},{"start":4918.669,"end":4936.353,"text":"有一些部分可能要跟我們來做一些討論來第一個我們就一條一條來針對這個刑事訴訟法第116條第二項之二第一項第六款的修正這個主要是在這個增訂有關這個這個羈押替代處分裡面有關這個這個護照文件的這個"},{"start":4944.778,"end":4964.938,"text":"相關的這個條件,加以這個他的拘束力以後來強化所以在過去原本是法院的通知主管機關就是就是不予合法護照那我是不是這個我看到這個提案人的提案說明,他就提到說過去"},{"start":4966.918,"end":4976.51,"text":"過去這個我們現在目前台灣有八萬名的通緝犯登記在案其中出境紀錄超過八千人這個狀況是這樣的描述是確實的嗎這樣的數字"},{"start":4984.265,"end":4998.052,"text":"通緝犯人數現在本部大概是偵查執行中大概1萬多人偵查中大概3萬多人當然還有審判中大概約1萬人左右這個加起來大概6萬人左右至於就是說"},{"start":4999.132,"end":5019.217,"text":"潛逃海外八千的部分他事實上因為潛逃海外原因很多他也許是拿雙重褲罩出去的他也許是非法出境的所以事實上就這個潛逃在外的人數事實上沒有辦法估計啦所以這個報告大概是警政署他預估的一個數字倒是不是個確確的數字那這個過去齁我想這個修法齁基本上"},{"start":5020.843,"end":5038.014,"text":"這個我看我看這個我們法務部跟司法院報告大概都基本上都支持這樣子的修法也是認為說把這個原本是是法院的通知主管機關不以核發那現在這個這個把它增列說的這個通知主管機關這個與廢紙並註銷廢紙並註銷那這個"},{"start":5045.459,"end":5069.75,"text":"這個過去的狀況好像以我的了解就是我們要他交出護照的時候他會說他護照遺失了或者他的護照遺失了找不到了或者是他的護照已經嚴重毀損了還是說他根本沒有護照他說這樣沒有交但是事實上轉身就拿著護照就出國了那這裡面這個修法就是為了防堵"},{"start":5070.877,"end":5093.985,"text":"類似像這樣狀況但是以現在的狀況而言他可能不只是修法的問題啊我們現在目前我們這個到底是怎麼樣運作的我們現行的實務運作我們法院是怎麼樣通知主管機關我們怎麼通知外交部說這個他的你不應該不予核發他護照我們是用這個韓文通知呢還是我們有一個系統有跟外交部有一個系統就是我我我這邊這邊這邊說給他給他這個這個"},{"start":5098.826,"end":5106.135,"text":"據保這個這個替代性的羈押替代性處分之後我們怎麼樣通知這個外交部現在現行實務運作"},{"start":5107.816,"end":5129.351,"text":"是韓文通知嗎?還是我們有沒有建設一個系統,就是說我可以即時的目前應該是用韓文啦,他目前應該是沒有一個資訊上的一個嫁接的一個串聯對,我們沒有一個資訊上嫁接的這個系統,我們用韓文的方式啦常常是在這個韓文的,中間的這個韓文的時間,他有一個時間差嘛,那個時間差造成這個細胞潛逃的狀況"},{"start":5131.272,"end":5154.766,"text":"但是這個在實務上也許可以透過我們限制出境我們也是透過航運另外一個傳真的方式現實的迅速的傳到相關的機關現在實務上是這樣做嗎?限制出境的時候是這樣做我的意思是說如果現在現行的做法這樣子它就是有漏洞那即使我們今天修法修了"},{"start":5155.886,"end":5164.832,"text":"我們要通知外交部要廢止並且註銷他的護照那一樣如果有這樣子一樣用韓文的方式他一樣有這樣的時間差在"},{"start":5168.588,"end":5190.885,"text":"那如果檢察官他並同做限制出境,我們就直接傳真給陸出境運輸,他就出不去啦那為什麼現在會可以繫保險,他為什麼可以持護照他如果他已經被限制出境的話,這個人基本上他是沒法出境,除非他有非法出境對,非法出境,我現在不談非法出境啦,我們現在這個是在防堵"},{"start":5193.487,"end":5214.47,"text":"今天的修法是在防堵,過去是說我們不予核發,就是說我不能說遺失了然後你現在不能夠再核發他一本護照但是現在我們修法之後說我們就可以把他護照廢止並註銷這個情況修法之後如果說我們目前食物運作的方式沒有改變他的漏洞依然在啊,是不是"},{"start":5216.493,"end":5218.054,"text":"我看到你們的報告裡面提到廢止並註銷你們有特別提到說"},{"start":5230.546,"end":5245.938,"text":"你們的用語是說他會把這個混淆行政處分跟行政作業是法律性質市長你這部分你有看到嗎有那你是不是說明這我看不太懂就是說我知道註銷是一個行政作業廢紙是一個"},{"start":5249.141,"end":5270.959,"text":"行政處分廢紙行政處分廢紙它合法護照這個行為基本上是外交部的一個行政處分對我知道註銷它基本上是一個登記一個實施的行為對它是一個行政作業但是護照條例的第25條護照條例第25條它原本的用語它就是說持照人有前兩況情況之下因語廢紙是處分並註銷"},{"start":5279.969,"end":5297.877,"text":"並註銷該護照他並不會混淆啊只是我們希望他做兩個動作我們希望他做一個廢止行政處分的動作跟一個行政作業必須並行你們這樣子提在這個書面意見這樣提的意思是說你們應該把並註銷不用提我們只要提廢止就好註銷讓外交部自己去"},{"start":5298.297,"end":5316.666,"text":"各位各位報告護照條例二十五條他是廢紙處分並註銷那是基本上是外交部他所做的行政處分那現在我們一六之二我們如果我們加一個檢察機關或法院通知他廢紙的話會變成他的行政處分是依照我們檢察官或法院所下的命令所做的"},{"start":5317.286,"end":5333.834,"text":"對那未來在行政就地上會產生一些混淆我們擔心這樣我們希望行政處分就由外交部自己職權去發動而不是透過一個多階段的行政處分我們給他個order他才按照我們的命令去做處分所以像你這樣的說法是要把這樣子的條件"},{"start":5335.015,"end":5362.15,"text":"條件列到護照條例裡面去嗎我們希望就是說就是說不應該你的意思是說不用在刑事訴訟法裡面修因為你在刑事訴訟法裡面修就是由檢察官做我們擔心未來行政上救濟上會產生行政處分它會變成多階段的行政處分對會誕生這樣多階段的行政處分其實對未來救濟的話制度的話會產生一些混淆所以我們希望由外交部自己做一個行政處分所以"},{"start":5363.174,"end":5376.442,"text":"所以這樣子的修法在刑事訴訟法裡面修法你覺得這樣子修是不好的我們怕有這個疑慮所以未來可以討論我們比較贊成就是我們希望能夠註銷但是由外交部自己去發動他的行政處分"},{"start":5383.627,"end":5395.474,"text":"註銷是行政作業啊行政處分是廢紙 我們要求他廢紙對 外交部自己做一個廢紙的行政處分而不是因為我們要他做廢紙的行政處分"},{"start":5397.758,"end":5416.078,"text":"所以你認為這樣子的修法是不妥的因為他們會變成多階段的行政處分我們不希望透過一個多階段的行政處分去處理這個事情好我大概了解了這樣我大概就知道你們所講的這句話的意思了好那接下來你看我這邊有四條一條就已經花掉我所有的時間了"},{"start":5417.287,"end":5424.378,"text":"接下來我們看這個第101條之一這個大概我們就是規範這個有關預防性羈押的原因這個增列這個兒少"},{"start":5428.763,"end":5455.042,"text":"這個兒少性剝削防治法的這個條例啦齁那這個部分我大概有幾個跟大概這個我們法務部製法院看法類似的這個我們都肯定支持啦齁但第一個在這個立法理由裡面用媒體報導當作立法理由這個倒是我個人是認為說這個我們如果立法要真的要通過的話立法理由應該要做修改啦齁這沒有說用媒體報導做立法理由的"},{"start":5455.871,"end":5464.963,"text":"再來就是就是你們也提到了在這個檢疫在這個他相同的這個"},{"start":5467.416,"end":5490.209,"text":"在鵝哨跟性剝削條例裡面他有其他除了今天除了他這個修法所列的之外這個36條第4他還有其他的這些相關的其他樣態的犯罪他並沒有列入啦他不只是這個鵝哨性剝削防治條例啦他刑法裡面有其他的這些相關的他也都沒有列入啦那這個"},{"start":5492.45,"end":5517.131,"text":"這部分我是覺得我們因為我們今天大概只有尋答我們今天不會進行審理我是希望說我法務部是不是就這個部分我們下次當我們開始進行審理的時候能夠提出我們法務部對於就相關的其他的這些這個同樣性剝削條例兒少性剝削條例裡面的其他的樣態跟這刑法的其他的條件都能夠納入那最後再一點時間就是有關這個"},{"start":5520.496,"end":5546.829,"text":"檢疫輸送程序449條這部分齁我最大的疑問齁可能到時候要請你們說明是這個這個我看這個委員的提案齁這個我仔細的比對了之後跟你們110年1月5號你們行政院跟司法院會嫌送進立法院我們已經在立法院在110年2月26號完成一讀的條文是一模一樣啦"},{"start":5548.459,"end":5570.667,"text":"一模一樣應該是一字不差啦一模一樣的那當初你們會前送進來讓立法院做了一讀了那現在委員提相同文...那因為借期不連續所以現在委員又提相同的完全一樣的文字進來結果我看司法院我看法務部我們的這個書面意見全部都不贊成"},{"start":5571.906,"end":5596.82,"text":"全部都不是說不贊成啦,說請再審酌啦你們的用語是請再審酌那這個就這個部分可能你們到時候我們審查的時候你們要說明清楚為什麼在110年的時候你們送進來的文字現在一模一樣的文字進來你們就說這個有疑慮請再審酌當初是你們請立法院函請立法院來修正的現在你們又說又變成有疑慮了"},{"start":5599.96,"end":5618.622,"text":"加債就算他變大就算他定價沒升過不然定價升過你現在所有的這些理由現在都已經法律通過了這部分在到時候審理的時候我們希望你們能夠就這個部分能夠講清楚以上好謝謝好謝謝沈委員那我們下一位請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":5627.003,"end":5633.437,"text":"謝謝主席我請司法院 今天是副秘書長還有法務部 今天是次長"},{"start":5643.587,"end":5662.594,"text":"我們今天討論刑事訴訟法其中主要一個原因就是有一些潛逃不管是棄保潛逃或者在入獄前的潛逃但是我們之前有一些這些重大的案件比如說中文誌或者是之前的諸國龍我們都在這裡有質詢而且都說會"},{"start":5667.116,"end":5696.536,"text":"有一些精進改善的措施對不對這個事情不是今天才發生是吧有沒有精進改善有沒有請問一下來副秘書長司法院部分有沒有精進改善報告委員這個部分司法院確實做了很多檢討雖然說我的問題就是有關於這些潛逃的或者是交保潛逃法院的部分院方有做精進改善對不對是有"},{"start":5697.616,"end":5720.051,"text":"法務部有沒有做經濟改善?法治面基本上修法比較緩慢實務上我們已經發函好幾次函給我們所屬的檢察機關未來就這個強制處分的實施我們要特別的修法院所以我的意思就是說在我們立法院還有社會高度重視"},{"start":5721.272,"end":5745.651,"text":"我想當然而司法院跟法務部應該不會再繼續的怠惰下去嘛怎麼樣 剩下來就怎麼樣經濟改善好 可是啊就在前兩天發生的是在新竹的孽童案知道嗎 知道這個案子嗎知道這個案子齁"},{"start":5746.966,"end":5771.278,"text":"所以啊 我說沒有最扯 只有更扯在新竹發生的虐童案這個他棄保潛逃 300萬交保棄保潛逃然後發生之後看到我們的檢方跟我們的地院 大家互推皮球責任都不在我院方說"},{"start":5773.457,"end":5796.248,"text":"我這個讓他交保我已經有媒體報導啦我有做成筆錄啦你們都應該知道因為有媒體報導也做成筆錄那檢方說沒有啊你法院開庭竟然沒有通知檢察官"},{"start":5797.662,"end":5821.887,"text":"竟然沒有通知檢察官到庭也沒有讓檢察官來表達意見啊進行裁定 這個虐童的嫌犯葉展浩就以300萬元交保還附加限制住居 還要跟派出所報到所以檢方說的振振有詞院方說的理直氣壯"},{"start":5824.031,"end":5830.364,"text":"責任都不在自己可是人咧?人咧?跑掉了所以我就不懂了"},{"start":5834.69,"end":5859.108,"text":"我們在立法院開了那麼多次的專案報告有這麼多的委員在質詢有這麼多的委員在關心包含本席在內都說會精進改善結果這個案子扯不扯它無關中大經濟犯罪它無關政治性的它就是一個一般老百姓非常關心的一個虐童案人跑掉了"},{"start":5864.281,"end":5879.353,"text":"然後竟然都說責任不在自己好你們都是各式檢方和這個法院的長官好請問一下我先請先請我們院方來說好了司法院這個責任在誰你們不要告訴我沒有去了解這個案情喔"},{"start":5880.851,"end":5884.312,"text":"這個法官有沒有問題他沒有通知檢察官到庭然後只是以說已經有媒體報導了"},{"start":5906.215,"end":5906.456,"text":"法官沒有錯"},{"start":5935.935,"end":5963.536,"text":"不是你的意思是法官沒有錯我要跟那個委員講的是說他有他的那個成因就是說法律他因為檢察官其實他自己也知道他這時候人人今天要開庭就是說決定這個人要不要羈押那所以我就問你嘛我現在就問你你說法官有沒有錯嘛在這個案件上法官有沒有錯嘛整個制度性的就是說這個部分制度錯人沒有錯我們就是說可能就是說每個法院所以你講不出法官有錯"},{"start":5964.437,"end":5970.923,"text":"他們不夠那個嚴謹所以我們現在也整個把整套那個程序SOP好所以法官沒有疏失沒有疏失有沒有疏失嗎"},{"start":5976.26,"end":5999.165,"text":"委員那個分成兩層一個就是說他核心的他怎麼做決定的這個判斷我給你很多時間說明我也要同樣給我們法務部說明來請問一下法務部次長這個事件檢察官有沒有問題在檢察官他是羈押中送法院的所以在這被告送到法院之後就由法院來決定這個被告是否繼續羈押"},{"start":6000.385,"end":6025.268,"text":"就訴訟制度上就法官就檢察官來講他這樣當然就法院有所決定之後他來做救濟但這個案檢察官他沒有被通知要到場立庭那事後他也沒有收到這個不押沒有繼續接押的裁定所以法律上他是這個沒有錯不是有沒有錯法律上他不知道清楚地檢署說因為沒有收到裁定書他沒有辦法提起抗告"},{"start":6026.636,"end":6050.196,"text":"他說而且都沒有通知他們到庭所以請問一下檢察官有沒有錯那原則上法這個裁定對外宣示他也可能對外生效但是你必須要送達檢察官才知道你裁定的理由才能夠提起槓桿所以以你對你作為檢察官的長官你認為檢察官沒有錯我們檢察官他要對個案就計他基本上要有裁定看到了沒有"},{"start":6052.699,"end":6073.506,"text":"不只是新竹地檢署或者新竹這個地院 兩邊推皮球如果我從司法院到這個法務部法務部沒有辦法說出檢察官有錯司法院也說法官沒有錯 按照制度就是這樣走那到底錯的是誰 錯的是誰呢"},{"start":6076.86,"end":6101.185,"text":"倒霉的是被虐待的兒童嗎?倒霉的是家長?倒霉的是受害人嗎?這個案子到底出現什麼樣的問題?我剛剛講說我們每次對一些重大積極犯罪我們非常生氣我們認為在裡面一定有貓膩這個我不曉得有沒有貓膩啦這個案子我不曉得有沒有貓膩但它活生生的就出現在我們的眼前"},{"start":6103.083,"end":6120.214,"text":"一個虐童案 300萬交保他就跑掉了所以來 再來剩一些時間你們要怎麼樣怎麼 我在說你們一定有精進的方式啊我們也想當然爾啊想當然爾你們會有精進然後現在又告訴我制度出錯了"},{"start":6122.543,"end":6140.019,"text":"來先請法務部你們要怎麼 像這個案子該怎麼辦跟委員報告 我剛也跟委員報告了就是說這幾個重大案件脫逃之後我們要求警察官在施行公訴的過程當中他對強制處分 對法官強制處分的行使我們要強力的進行他算不算重大案件 這個新竹的劣童案"},{"start":6140.639,"end":6157.344,"text":"其實不管重不重大啦假官在實行公訴的時候對法官強制處分權的行使其實我們進行公訴代表人的責任去督促法院適當的行使他的強制處分權我們發函要求訴處假官必須要這麼做好 來 司法院這個案子"},{"start":6158.502,"end":6185.737,"text":"你們要怎麼精進那個過往有關於一審程序我們是尊重檢察官他要不要到那現在我們就是有通令就是說請那個各法院就是這種程序一定還是要正式那個通知那個檢察官所以一定要通知檢察官到庭嘛不要有機會再大家互踢皮球是吧是好現在我要求法部跟司法院針對這個新竹市的虐童案的細胞潛逃提出報告給我們"},{"start":6187.538,"end":6206.247,"text":"司法法治委員會然後你們該不該做出懲處也提出來沒有道理啊沒有道理大家都說沒有錯然後就出現這樣的一個七寶潛逃讓我們社會大眾無法接受如果今天一個虐童案可以如此"},{"start":6208.914,"end":6227.078,"text":"重大經濟犯罪你逃掉了連虐童案你都讓他逃掉了然後都告訴我們我們通通沒有錯老師說我認為這是檢驗雙方的怠惰不把這個案子當回事嘛今天如果是你的孩子被虐待呢你會這樣對待嗎我認為就是兩方都有怠惰不要推給制度制度是死的人是活的"},{"start":6236.98,"end":6260.885,"text":"所以在這邊要求 這個主席我要求我們的司法院跟法務部 針對這個案子提出報告 還有提出懲處的報告這事情不能不了了之最後我們是懲罰制度嗎懲罰一個冷冰冰的這些文字嗎請 對我們 請 多久可以提出來那再麻煩法務部司法院多一招多久可以提出來"},{"start":6261.365,"end":6273.072,"text":"依照那個委員的要求提出相關的報告跟懲處那請問要多久兩週內可以嗎一個月一個月啊那麼久啊兩週可以嗎"},{"start":6276.287,"end":6293.614,"text":"因為不可能是法務部直接下來調查我們要透過台高檢疫調查它一個行政流程是不是一個月一個月好我要具體的不要最後又給我看到通通推給制度好不好好謝謝再麻煩一個月內能提出好謝謝下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":6307.747,"end":6310.051,"text":"有請王副秘書長還有次長麻煩次長"},{"start":6314.554,"end":6343.619,"text":"委員早安 是 王副秘書長還有次長我想剛剛前面一些委員 懷抱漢應該是昨天都有一些委員有問到有關於虐童案的那個犯罪嫌疑人他棄保潛逃的問題剛剛王宏威委員其實也說了很多本席今天其實本來也要講這個議題但是因為剛剛王宏威委員其實也已經請你們要對這個事情要好好的嚴加處理然後甚至要去追究"},{"start":6344.179,"end":6364.875,"text":"相關承辦法官的責任因為剛剛聽了副秘書長的說明似乎是法官在做相關裁定決定的時候中間可能出了一些有疏失至少您剛剛的說法是不嚴謹不嚴謹的話那代表可能他也要負擔一些行政責任那麼就這個部分的話那我認為說不管是"},{"start":6368.437,"end":6396.875,"text":"司法院或是法務部其實未來在整個橫向的聯繫上面一定要多加強因為已經太多的案例然後讓大家這個社會觀感很不好為什麼這麼重大的一些案子然後這個犯罪嫌疑人就棄保險潛逃了然後最後呢聽兩位的說法就是都是怪罪於因為制度 現行的法律不夠完善但是過去其實司法院跟法務部也常常"},{"start":6397.755,"end":6426.355,"text":"會自己頒布很多的行政指導的原則函式或是作業方式然後請法官跟檢察官這裡都要配合處理那為什麼在這些事情上面卻沒有積極的作為那本席是感到很遺憾那麼希望就是你們能夠深刻的檢討那本席在這邊也要再講一下就是113年其實監察委員林怡蓉她有去"},{"start":6429.29,"end":6439.927,"text":"還有去法務部到行政院去進行相關的考察 那麼那個時候呢其實就有這個"},{"start":6443.021,"end":6470.767,"text":"在進行考察的過程當中其實就針對氣保潛逃的問題然後提出七大重點改善項目我想法務部這邊應該很清楚那其中呢像是第六點跟第七點那我認為這部分的話是法務部應該要趕快做檢討那麼甚至司法院跟法務部有沒有積極推動氣保潛逃罪的這個制定當然我們現在今天看起來就要討論了那麼事實上不僅是"},{"start":6472.428,"end":6489.886,"text":"這個相關的罪則要盡速的制定那麼同時在這個法律還沒有通過之前像施行細則以及這個作業方式其實都要做我想請教法務部你們在這個監委考察之後你們內部有做一些檢討嗎"},{"start":6492.137,"end":6519.521,"text":"各位報告那這個相關的改善措施譬如說科技監控的部分開案量的部分那如同我們上一次的報告我們開案量現在已經從原來的前一年的每年30件現在提升到每年97件所以開案量已經大幅的增加那至於這個有罪羈押制度這涉及到我們跟司法院相關法律見解的不一樣是不是有違反無罪推定原則的問題這還要進行相關的寫上事實上這個法案它是比較爭議性有罪就羈押制度所以這法制面的修正還要進行相關的"},{"start":6519.821,"end":6535.36,"text":"但是你們現在有進行過相關的討論嗎 跟司法院事實上我們早就提出來過了只是大家對這個 老實講對這個條文它有一些見解上的歧異這個條文就通過了另外有關於這個第七點的這個查緝平台部分"},{"start":6535.72,"end":6565.05,"text":"那我們現在查緝集團我們現在已經在整合在一個界面上面上面有各種四種平台的整合讓民眾或者是要使用的予以查詢這個我們也做到了所以相關的這個改善部分我們其實已經做相關的改善措施是那請問王副秘書長你們就這一點你們自己內部有在進行檢討嗎跟司法院跟法務部的就第六點還是對就第五點跟第六點呢"},{"start":6566.448,"end":6585.886,"text":"你們有在開會討論嗎我先說有關於那個防逃的那個部分從那個去年以來其實司法院開過幾次那個大型會議就是增加法官他們賠利他們有關於就是這個敏感度防逃這個敏感度那一方面就是我"},{"start":6586.366,"end":6601.005,"text":"如果說不羈押的話目前科控確實是最有效的那個手段因為目前使用科控被告還沒有一個那個逃跑的那所以我們也讓那個法官真正了解說這個實際上這個科控它怎麼是運作的上個科控不是中文字就逃跑了嗎"},{"start":6601.846,"end":6624.969,"text":"沒有 他是沒有苛控中文字幕就是就是你們這中間的橫向聯繫就出了問題嗎那個是法官他不去下那個處分讓他苛控那所以我們也鼓勵法官就是說在有那個必要的時候多使用這個苛控那他要了解的話就要對這整個那個制度就是說那個了解還有優化那個制度那這是防逃那個部分那另外有關於就是說"},{"start":6625.489,"end":6645.859,"text":"好 那沒關係 因為本席的這個諮詢時間有限我還有其他問題要問那我希望就是說兩個單位應該要積極的溝通協調看如何是強化這個棄保潛逃的問題好 那接下來我要問一個就是也是日前的新聞報載大家知道有180名的台灣籍的詐騙嫌疑人在柬埔寨"},{"start":6646.579,"end":6671.09,"text":"遭到逮捕沒有經過我國政府的同意以及之前就分了三批遣送到這個大陸去受審那這當然不僅凸顯出我國在第三國的司法協調上面的困境更讓海峽兩岸的共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議的效能看起來是失靈的而且也受到空前的這個質疑那麼我想"},{"start":6672.491,"end":6694.425,"text":"當時這個兩岸共同打擊犯罪以及司法互助協議它最重要的精神就在於說雙方要本持著互惠互助保護人民的權益為原則來處理跨境犯罪的案件可是呢我們看到這個狀況其實在近些年來到底法務部在司法互助在跟兩岸司法互助上面你們有沒有"},{"start":6695.325,"end":6724.436,"text":"更更取得更好的成效還是說根本就這是停滯停滯是屬於停滯的階段沒有任何的成果我首先想請教次長你們知不知道這一批180位嫌犯的名單各位報告這個其實在整個過程當中法務部跟外交部都有在積極的想要把這180個是不是可以解送到所以你們是知道這一份名單的這個具體名單知不知道那我們目前沒有辦法掌握但這個事件我們從頭到尾都是掌握"},{"start":6725.757,"end":6739.754,"text":"這80個既定名單180位對對對我倒是不知道我們有沒有掌握但這個事件從頭到尾本部跟外交部跟警政署都是從頭到尾掌握的所以你們跟柬埔寨的溝通過程當中他們是完全"},{"start":6741.535,"end":6761.961,"text":"這個完全不理不睬然後就直接將這180位嫌疑犯移送到中國大陸去各位報告事實上本部跟警政組透過外交部外交部事後也發布新聞稿就是說他有相關窮盡的努力希望把這些國人把他解送回台灣來進行相關的偵審程序那你們法務部在中間扮演什麼角色"},{"start":6763.726,"end":6787.518,"text":"我們在法務部,法務部他也許是透過法務秘書也許透過駐外的移民秘書相關去進行相關的實質上的外交干涉但正式的外交途徑還是要透過外交部去做相關的進行干涉目前外交部的能力我很懷疑他們到底有沒有這樣的一個能力可以去跟柬埔寨那裡做溝通協調那麼好,那現在人到了中國大陸那裡去了那麼我想請問這個"},{"start":6790.519,"end":6816.87,"text":"次長您知不知道就是目前在兩岸司法互助的這個情況之下那麼截至目前為止有多少位大陸移送回台灣的罪犯有多少人各位報告這兩岸按照兩岸共打跟司法互助協議我們進行相關的所謂司法互助其實送達的部分甚至完全沒有受影響非常非常多調查舉證相方也進行了非常多倒是人員遣返的部分"},{"start":6817.25,"end":6840.959,"text":"的確是這幾年來他人身遣返的數字他有下降那基本上是個案上的遣返他沒有辦到通盤性的遣返其實按照兩岸共打協議基本上這個查了相關的資料我感到很遺憾的就是說大家看看從110年然後到113年我們罪犯接回來的人數"},{"start":6842.199,"end":6848.721,"text":"是零就是這三年來罪犯人數是零110年當時說從98年到110年總共大概差不多15年的時間我們總共接回來19位那從110年到113年接回來的人數還是19位累計喔好了我們下一頁來看一下"},{"start":6861.266,"end":6881.915,"text":"所以呢可以看得出來就是這110年從110年到113年這三年來我們兩岸共同打擊犯罪司法互助協議的執行成效是非常非常糟糕連兩岸的在詐欺罪的合作破獲建樹這三年也只有三岸在跟過去比其實差別很大"},{"start":6882.775,"end":6908.184,"text":"所以這個成效的部分我剛才跟委員報告就人員遣返的確是比較少但司法互助不是只有這個包括委員剛才有提到送達調查取證這個相關的司法處境現在進行的也是非常的頻繁人員遣返不定他涉及到一個雙方互相的一個大家互惠他基本上他今天不遣返我們也沒有辦法叫他願意遣返但人員遣返的確這幾年來他是人數變少的"},{"start":6909.704,"end":6936.752,"text":"是我想因為這個部分當然也涉及到就是兩岸的這個刑事制度那麼從我們的角度來講我們當然還是希望台灣人能夠回到台灣來接受相關的法律制裁然後要服刑等等那這個部分的話的確是要多加強那麼我也有看到就是你們近幾年來你們編的兩岸司法互助的預算大概就是千萬大概就是上千萬可是"},{"start":6938.433,"end":6963.268,"text":"看不出來有什麼具體的成效而且是每況愈下我覺得這個問題也很嚴重這當然跟現在賴政府從民進黨政府執政以來跟對岸的關係在各方面幾乎都已經是降到冰點了都已經是這個兩邊都不交流了連這個司法互助共同打擊犯罪的部分也都停滯不前這個問題是很嚴重"},{"start":6966.043,"end":6991.134,"text":"而且更何況我們的外交也沒有辦法處理相關的問題那在國外的一些犯罪的人全部都移送到中國大陸去我覺得法務部就這方面還是應該要有更積極的作為你看我們現在人員遣返我們對大陸提出了這個要求356個人然後陸方只遣返了10位那麼陸方對我們說提出3位我們遣返1位"},{"start":6992.27,"end":6999.946,"text":"可是我們提出的人很多代表我們很多的人是被關在那裡的對 法務部有沒有什麼想法就未來要怎麼樣改善這個"},{"start":7002.399,"end":7014.93,"text":"在正式的管道或者兩岸司法互助協議上的管道其實我們都向陸方請求了但人員遣返部分是涉及到雙方的意願請問兩邊還有在開會嗎正式的會議當然沒有但是透過相關的研討會還是有在只是研討會因為這個涉及到"},{"start":7022.957,"end":7044.966,"text":"我們相關的司法互助或者是相關的情職交換不見得一定要透過正式的途徑有時候透過一個非正式的途徑反而容易取得相關的司法互助或者是調查取證那可是你們現在不是近幾年你們到大陸去開會的次數不是越來越少近幾年變少 是不是這個是我們這邊的問題還是他們那邊的問題"},{"start":7048.892,"end":7075.92,"text":"是我們這邊的人不願意去還是他們那邊的人不願意讓我們去這個當然是要多雙方要有意見我的想法還是要更積極的處理這個問題那也請法務部可以把這些年來就是要不然就近三年來到底我們遣返了哪些人他的犯罪類型是如何然後兩岸破獲的案件是哪些案件把相關的資訊提供給我可以嗎"},{"start":7076.925,"end":7087.828,"text":"好那就麻煩前兩個禮拜之內提供給我因為案件數很少吧對不對 好不好那就兩個星期之內提供給本席做參考好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":7103.663,"end":7125.65,"text":"謝謝張偉,有請我們司法院副秘書長還有我們服務部的黃次長麻煩副秘書長移民署還有海巡署都有到,請上來一下好不好我想先請教黃次長,你跟我們"},{"start":7128.065,"end":7142.753,"text":"王富密其實都食物界非常有經驗的人但是我今天要特別來請教就是說最近竹北健身教練這個案子我相信劣童案你們應該很清楚"},{"start":7144.107,"end":7162.484,"text":"又跑掉了 這本來在2月5號才訂300萬交保那3月份的時候發現沒有到庭以後 發現已經棄保潛逃我有一個很大的感慨 就是說法院在做這樣的 這種接押庭的時候一般來講的話 應該都會通知檢察官立庭嘛"},{"start":7167.253,"end":7183.976,"text":"市長不是這樣子嗎監察庭法律沒有規定必須要通知檢察官來力挺我們陷阱法上沒有規定是那所以說檢察官也未必會到實務上其實檢察官都會力挺如果有通知我們應該會到不通知的案例多不多"},{"start":7185.302,"end":7198.891,"text":"不通知檢察官他就沒有辦法也許他主動知道當然可以他也許他不知道他可能就沒有辦法倒庭所以這個案子就怪啦這個案子就變成說在接家庭的時候檢察官沒有立庭"},{"start":7200.168,"end":7225.353,"text":"那法院他當然他有這個權利說這個預知被告多少金額來做交保嘛那這個案子是三百萬嘛我們就不談個案啦就說像這種案子三百萬交保以後那人跑掉啦到最後你說通知開庭的時候人跑掉啦那檢察官再去講說啊我沒有收到這個裁定啊所以我無從抗告啊那你會覺得這樣檢察官的這樣子抗辯的講法說法通嗎"},{"start":7226.753,"end":7252.279,"text":"跟委員報告啦我們對法院的強制處分他基本上是透過抗告制度去救濟嘛那抗告當然檢察官要抗告全體他要審酌抗告有沒有抗告有沒有裁定書或裁定書的理由他才有辦法提起抗告嘛那如果說法檢察官他沒有收到裁定書雖然這個裁定書對他宣示他可以提起抗告但畢竟沒有理由對檢察官來講他事實上他是事實上他的無從提起"},{"start":7253.4,"end":7270.94,"text":"你這樣講也未必是一個全貌實務上哪是這樣 實務上有時候常常這個當庭法官就預支多少錢 被告多少錢 交保以後你檢察官沒有收到裁定書 你知道了以後其實抗告跟上訴一樣也不一定要具體理由我先不付理由我都可以抗告啊"},{"start":7271.72,"end":7293.062,"text":"那跟那個前提是檢察官他有到場來執行公訴的前提之下所以這個案子又神不知鬼不覺檢察官又不知道啦人就這樣被給放走了那當然也未必講說法官他主觀上就是刻意要去放人也許他整個事實他認為是我300萬交保是本來就是很合理的啊他要跑到也不知道啊但重點我為什麼要這樣問啊就是說跟前面啊"},{"start":7295.936,"end":7321.996,"text":"又發生一個中文字案嘛本來就是一個科技監控那現在就變成也是說檢察官沒有收到裁定那現在法院預支一定的金額交保以後那跑掉了以後檢察官的講法也是又說我又沒有收到裁定這就變成說到底這個制度裡面有沒有什麼樣的一個破洞在這個地方你像譬如說科技監控的部分我到現在還沒有搞清楚"},{"start":7323.035,"end":7348.443,"text":"我到現在還沒搞清楚我兩三個禮拜到法官學院的時候我特地去詢問了一下我也跟你們法界的人討論了一下我到現在還是搞不清楚就是說你像比如說實質科技監控某某某科技監控有預知科技監控一定有一段的時間嘛對不對那科技監控完以後我說把這個電子腳療我要把它給放掉把它給拿掉"},{"start":7349.417,"end":7374.927,"text":"就解除他的科技監控法官說要解除科技監控就可以解除科技監控那我們實務上就是你要有電子腳療的話你腳上有戴一個啊不可能法官自己去把它給拆除掉啊一定有人把它拆除掉啊那假設說我是那個我們現在在執行的科技監控的人到底是誰啊"},{"start":7376.119,"end":7400.66,"text":"各位我們在四星電源組有設一個科共中心對 我知道高電池有科共中心我說實際上要把那個角料拿掉的是誰啊科共中心有專門技術人員會去是技術人員 對那總要有人給他下令啊他就是這樣子啊如果他他科技監控有一定期間嘛如果期間到了不延期在期間到了前十天我們科共中心就開始通知法官你要不要延"},{"start":7401.755,"end":7428.05,"text":"如果時間到了還沒有因為沒有接下來延長的裁定了嘛他就不能夠再繼續克控時間到了放人很合理啦時間到了放人很合理那我的意思就是說那你時間還沒到那我法官說下個裁定說你這個解除某某某的科技監控那總會你們是用開案的系統是不是對 他有一個系統好 那麼系統進去了以後那也不可能那一個執行人員直接他受到這樣的一個命令啊"},{"start":7430.216,"end":7453.076,"text":"你們都不用有任何一個書面或者說電子的公文都不用他如果裁定要科技監控當然他要有一個科技監控的命令書這些命令書給科工中心一定要有所以說嘛所以說你像比如說中文字案嘛你法官說要解除這個科技監控你要一個命令書嗎"},{"start":7455.256,"end":7460.053,"text":"他這個不是 他是不延長 這個個案他是不延長時間到了就不延長"},{"start":7461.479,"end":7489.745,"text":"他時間到不延長所以他沒有另外的一個書面出來了就像我們羈押 羈押時間到了你沒有再一個延長羈押那你檢方哪有可能不知道 檢方一定知道啊高電署一定知道啊因為他是法院他直接通知客控中心的直接通知客控中心喔對 他是直接高電署法官他直接高院他直接不是高電署 高院跟科技中聯繫因為審理中的強制處分是法官做的那所以審理中高院"},{"start":7490.965,"end":7498.004,"text":"只下一個裁定他直接通知其實就是一個裁定嘛他直接通知客戶中心所有中文字放人是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7501.769,"end":7520.321,"text":"他放不放人 他沒有被羈押他科工中心這個人沒有被羈押 沒有放人的問題不是 解除科技監控啦他如果不延長的話 時間到了就不能夠不 不 我的意思是總要有人把他解除掉那你不可能唸咒語說 解除掉 不可能啊"},{"start":7522.782,"end":7543.915,"text":"他到Deadline的前一天或Deadline的前一天我們的技術人員通常會約到法院的特定住所去做解除的動作所以你們的技術一定要一個技術人員把他給繳聊電子繳聊把他給解除嘛所以這個解除的人到底是誰叫他去把他解除的啊他收到誰的命令啊"},{"start":7545.154,"end":7560.63,"text":"法院啊法院直接喔對 因為審理中就是直接法院對客控中心了所以這件就跟你們高檢署就無關囉因為它不延長 它其實跟這件哇 那就無頭公案啦那像這種案子 你像譬如說"},{"start":7562.984,"end":7569.385,"text":"在審理當中你檢察官 法官在借押庭的時候沒有通知檢察官立庭那檢察官事後 人跑掉了以後大家都沒逃公安法官說我本來就是 我獨立審判我認為三百萬本來就是合理的啊我認為三百萬一般案件的話 你說我要保全被告我整個程序的進行 三百萬是合理的"},{"start":7589.429,"end":7596.122,"text":"常常會出現這樣的一個不可能每個案子都是羈押嘛那你也不能講法官是什麼那檢察官又說我沒有收到裁定那像這種案件你們認為有沒有什麼樣的方法會比較好一點"},{"start":7603.274,"end":7621.375,"text":"當然根據委員報告 檢察官他要監督法院的所做的裁定當然就是對裁定本身提起救濟嘛是嘛 那前提是檢察官要知道這個裁定而且付理由他才有辦法救濟副秘書長有沒有什麼樣的不要有這個案子 每天都要報一件"},{"start":7622.594,"end":7638.44,"text":"撥一支中文字 撥一支竹筆內通這個司法現在真的會有減損就是我們司法院立場我們一定會深自檢討但是我要跟委員講一下這背景就是說偵查中"},{"start":7639.281,"end":7653.822,"text":"結束之後檢察官決定他要起訴這是檢察官決定的那今天這個人事實上本來在偵查中押他今天要到法院來事實上這個押票也是檢方開出來所以那一天要進到法院的時候檢察官他是知道"},{"start":7654.403,"end":7671.305,"text":"今天檢察官要法官要決定就是這個疑審程序有沒有他要決定這個所以我們實務上過去呢我們都尊重就是說因為檢察官他本來就知道了嘛知道說今天會開這個那個接鴨程序那我們都是尊重說檢察官因為"},{"start":7672.006,"end":7698.737,"text":"坦白講因為大家真的太忙了大家負擔太重所以就尊重他他們來不來第一個他們是知道的那第二就是說大案他們其實也通常都會來那就是這個事情發生之後呢檢方既然說我們沒有通知其實很多法院跟很多法官都還是會通知只是說有些呢就沒有通知因為檢察官前提他已經知道嘛那如果說認為這個地方我們要改善就是以後我們全面就全部通通都通知以上報告"},{"start":7699.497,"end":7725.691,"text":"那所以就是說當天要做了一個裁定檢方當然知道今天院方他會去做一個那個裁定那往後因為這個程序還在走所以說這個裁定是什麼檢察官他當然是會知道的那1306條的規定就是說院方他一定都會就是當庭去做一個宣示這個裁定已經做出來了嘛那做出來之後檢察官從這個10點開始他也是可以提抗告的"},{"start":7727.073,"end":7751.902,"text":"市長 你看 講法要跟你不同來他裁定 宣誓是對外生效沒有錯但是 宣誓因為這個案子講好像沒有道理他不曉得裁定的理由跟裁定的內容嘛他沒有裁定 他不知道理由他如何進行抗告 除非他就一律的抗告啦我比較在意的其實不是這個啦 你們都"},{"start":7753.083,"end":7767.35,"text":"比較本位立場啦 其實我聽起來也都有道理啦但問題就是說 社會大眾不是這樣看啦社會大眾不會這樣看啦社會大眾一定把你們兩個的講法就是你們是呼嘌皮球啦社會大眾認為你們這樣 欸 不然都沒有人錯很多事情確實沒有人錯喔但問題緩解這你怎麼樣去補這樣的一個漏洞"},{"start":7776.076,"end":7798.881,"text":"這第一個 第二個我為什麼要請海巡跟這個漁民署上來的原因就是說 你像譬如說我們一般財務案件 你說啊你就欠稅 你不叫我行政院處這個地方 就跟你說你這個限制出境還有出海 那一般這種情況的話 你們海巡接到這樣子的話 你們是怎麼處理啊"},{"start":7800.818,"end":7826.974,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關處分機關做出的限制促進來處分那本署接獲通知之後會立即由本署的偵防分署在安檢知識系統裡面書件那提供所屬來做一個查詢那如果是 是啦我的意思說已經到海邊了 已經到海邊了你看到了你們怎麼處理我們會告知原處分機關那禁止這個當事對象來出海"},{"start":7828.14,"end":7845.037,"text":"禁止對象出海 就是說你不能處理這樣就沒有其他任何處分了你們就是阻擋你不要給我出去有沒有其他動作 都沒有然後另外會通知原處分機關通知原處分機關原處分機關你們碰到他都怎麼處理他都怎麼處理"},{"start":7852.745,"end":7864.885,"text":"也譬如說行政執行處我們跟你說這個人就欠稅了 不能處理他來到海邊 你在海巡後你給他通知有一個人在這個地方他欠稅的 他不能出去了那他通知你 你們接下來怎麼處理"},{"start":7865.919,"end":7885.027,"text":"他們會到現場嗎不會吧原主任機關未必會到現場那有時候會透過電話的方式告知這個對象他不可以出海就只告訴他不可出海而已那請問移民署移民署你們怎麼處理飛機要飛出去的到那個地方你們的處理方式是怎麼樣委員好"},{"start":7885.467,"end":7911.172,"text":"如果我們收到行政機關或是司軍法機關的那個限制出境的命令那原則上如果當事人到了國境線上的時候我們也是一語攔阻攔阻是一定攔阻我說你們用什麼樣的處分的方式原則上如果他不能出境的情況之下我們會看後續之前那個司軍法機關有沒有做特別的註記希望我們做什麼樣的動作你們不是都開個書面給他而已嗎你們就是開書面"},{"start":7914.093,"end":7938.849,"text":"那為什麼海巡的方式就跟你們不一樣這也怪喔我現在變成這種限制出境跟出海的部分海巡跟移民署的做法就不同啦你們移民署就是直接開一張書面跟他說你已經限制出境出海了所以你不能出境 交給他拼了不給他照反而海巡的做法又不一樣了他會去通知原機關然後等他的指示看要怎麼做處理"},{"start":7941.699,"end":7958.994,"text":"跟委員補充報告一下因為我們在國境線上一攔阻的時候我們會應當事人的要求開禁止出境的通知單通知單裡面會跟當事人告知說是哪個機關來禁止他出境那後續的處置的部分我們會依個"},{"start":7960.916,"end":7982.675,"text":"禁止出境的機關給我們的指示 如果他需要電告 那我們就會用電告的方式如果當事人是需要我們留置 那我們就會就留置的方式 請該等行政機關來做處理好 我最後一個問題要請教副秘書長啦 就是說 你像一般我們做限制出境的話 像譬如說限制出境搭飛機的一定要護照嘛"},{"start":7983.456,"end":8006.228,"text":"那限制出境 我看今天羅志強委員他也提了一個案子啦我都這個蠻有創意的 像譬如說你說限制出境了那我法院可以把你限制出境啦 我有這個權限把你限制出境啦我乾脆把你這個護照給註銷啦我覺得這倒也不錯的一個思考的方式 我不知道你的看法是怎麼樣我們司法院是贊同的 因為目前的那個"},{"start":8009.759,"end":8013.113,"text":"因為目前那個我們在那個報告上有講就是說"},{"start":8016.995,"end":8044.202,"text":"那個現行的那個行政作業上就是說外交部他們本來就是也有就不發護照跟那個註銷那現在就是說對於註銷的這一塊呢就是說把它放到那個116之二讓它作為就是停止羈押一個替代那個處分這個是可行的那這個等於是跟就是說他們外交部他們所做等於是那個多重的一個行政處分嘛"},{"start":8044.662,"end":8070.227,"text":"那這個我們認為是可行而且是有效的我也認為是有效所以羅志祥這個案子我準備給你支持但是最後的一個叮嚀就是說願檢其實像已經接二連三出現這樣的一個狀況常常讓檢察官用說我沒有收到裁定這個不是辦法啦再出現一次再出現一次每一次出現"},{"start":8072.301,"end":8098.977,"text":"民眾的想法跟你們想的不一樣啊你們想的是各自的是誰的一個理由到最後可能會有究責的問題嗎這到底問題點出在哪裡搞不好都嚴不相信民眾的想法就是說是不是又偷偷放人了這個對司法的信賴多會減損啊你們還是要想個辦法院檢之間看怎麼樣有一個聯繫或者研擬出一個你們共同看怎麼樣把這個"},{"start":8101.813,"end":8124.177,"text":"動把它給補起來我覺得這個不要開玩笑了好不好可以喔 謝謝謝謝莊委員 那我們下一位我們請羅志強委員發言主席有請法務部跟警政署麻煩次長和警政署"},{"start":8127.133,"end":8141.326,"text":"委員好首先還是先感謝莊烈雄委員我們一起為我們台灣的治安打拚來一起來去健全我們的法治能夠讓我們的這個司法犯罪的那個能夠更嚴謹不要讓"},{"start":8143.177,"end":8161.722,"text":"犯人逃逸在我們司法訴究的範圍首先我想先請問一下警政署就警政署掌握目前有多少通緝犯 棄保潛逃犯是在國外的能夠推估一個大概的數字嗎"},{"start":8163.587,"end":8178.806,"text":"報告委員事實上我們剛才有您提到有8000這個數字的時候我們私底下有去了解一下目前這個數據這個會期我並沒有任何所知大概我們搜尋到應該是網路上好像有一個記者就訪問"},{"start":8180.014,"end":8207.274,"text":"有私下管道去對那這個部分我們回去我們再做一個我們在這個可能外討論可能涉及到司法科跟國際科這部分我們沒有手上沒有現成的資料是不是容我們在後續提供其實這也是就是我一個質詢的點就是說事實上我也是根據新聞報導看到這個數字那我有跟貴部也有去詢問那你們沒有給我具體數字那我要講就是說"},{"start":8209.397,"end":8237.115,"text":"官方其實這個數字還是應該要有啦我舉個例子我就問那個次長嘛對不對我們講不管說今天犯罪增防我們要去讓我們台灣的治安更好其實事前的各方面的跟犯罪有關的資訊掌握就很重要嘛對不對你資訊掌握到你才有後續的相關的所謂的治安作為嘛對不對犯罪打擊作為嘛"},{"start":8237.719,"end":8265.23,"text":"所以我再想請教一下那個警政署啊警政署這邊就是說我們今天齁 你應該也不希望說我們有所謂的這個呃 嫌犯齁 棄保檢討齁跑到國外去嘛 對不對也不希望嘛 對不對那有這樣的人你們也希望把他抓回來嘛通棄犯把他抓回來嘛即便他不管在境內或是出境都想把他抓回來嘛 對不對可是問題來了"},{"start":8266.738,"end":8293.815,"text":"你對於他到底在跑到國外有多少人你都無法掌握那你請問你怎麼期待我們把人抓回來呢對不對 我這樣講有沒有道理目前就是只要是不管院檢發布通緝之後那人就是不見了那人不見之後我們也會去追緝但是他有時候比如說他如果沒有註銷沒有 護照沒有註銷的情況下他可能可以直接用正式管道出去"},{"start":8294.58,"end":8313.523,"text":"那可能就會有記錄所以這當然就連到我們剛剛講呼召註銷的問題我也是因為這個洞我要開始講這件事那有的部分他可能會去做私下偷渡的管道那這個部分他逃掉了到底是不是做已經做這個私下的偷渡出去的這個部分確實可能我還是跟警政署說啦"},{"start":8314.608,"end":8334.41,"text":"無論如何你今天你可以還是有一些你已經掌握到在國外的那數字你要公布那你今天還不是很明確的你也可以公布一個不是很明確或是說他到底在台灣還是在外面你不明確的那就是一個數字嘛各位相信你應該還是知道有一些已經跑出去的嘛"},{"start":8335.472,"end":8353.821,"text":"沒錯吧不過完全都不知道只要跑了就連有沒有在國內都不知道這個部分這個手邊沒有相關數字我相信我們這個國際科外面也有一些聯繫的管道對啊應該有辦法像委員講說可能也會有一些情緒上的初估的數字"},{"start":8355.041,"end":8370.271,"text":"可能農後再提供所以請把至少一個初估數字給我嘛因為這個東西說真的就是我剛剛跟次長講的嘛就是說你要先了解目前的我們到底這個所謂的不管是通緝犯逃到海外還是棄保潛逃的問題到底有多嚴重"},{"start":8371.414,"end":8382.76,"text":"我們接下來法治防治端我們才知道怎麼樣去包括立法包括行政作為包括政策作為我們才有辦法跟上那我想請教一下法務部今天我們討論刑事訴訟法116條之二的修法那關於註銷護照部分"},{"start":8387.463,"end":8409.174,"text":"它背後其實有關連另外一個我一直關切的法案嘛就是棄保潛逃罪嘛那我也是本屆第一個提案的委員那我想請教法務部去年徐錫陽次長曾經承諾在上個會期會把棄保潛逃罪送到立法院來我知道法務部是支持棄保潛逃罪的立法啦 對不對但是這個不版到行政院會"},{"start":8410.848,"end":8418.113,"text":"可是行政院現在確實一直都沒有送版本到立法院來那我想請問行政院有什麼疑慮嗎為什麼院版一直送不過來呢"},{"start":8419.515,"end":8445.125,"text":"更有報告 棄保潛牢罪 當法務部當然支持說我們有相關完成相關的草案事實上我們在108年8月108年9月就已經送進行政院審議了那行政院當然這法案它有些各種意見甚至委員之間也不同的版本它其實爭議性實在有一些爭議那行政院它有行政院它要考量的因素所以目前還在行政院審議當中是還沒有送到大院我還是期許一下我們法務部"},{"start":8446.545,"end":8467.565,"text":"因為說實在的話 我們立法委員當然是從人民的角度去提很多法案的一些建議但是如果有行政院版來做一個大家的參照比對 甚至相互的來去精進的話我覺得立法工作室可以更周延那這個事情剛好跟黨派也沒關係嘛 都是為了防範 增進我們治安的作為嘛"},{"start":8468.185,"end":8487.199,"text":"所以一直拖著我覺得感覺上我覺得行政院這一塊你雖然當然我知道有一些各種不一樣的困難但困難對行政機關不應該作為一個理由啦那你有那麼龐大的一個政府部門專家學者作為後盾的話你事實上你還是應該要努力提出一個願板出來"},{"start":8488.14,"end":8506.686,"text":"好不好 拜託再去努力一下那否則我跟你講我們現在都進到這個階段了其實我是有一點點遺憾啦就是說等到這個階段結果院版沒有等到我是個人是有點遺憾但是如果能夠跟行政院精進一下也麻煩部長 次長這邊再繼續溝通好不好好"},{"start":8508.066,"end":8515.09,"text":"那我想請教說就制定棄保潛逃罪其實非常重要那根據110年到112年的數據毒品跟詐欺的棄保潛逃犯佔比是超過85%嘛對不對我看那個大宗你們給我數據是這樣"},{"start":8524.158,"end":8541.351,"text":"那這個部分來看的話其實你就會發現推動氣保潛逃罪它跟反毒反詐其實也高度相關聯當然是牽連在一起所以因此如果說行政院跟法務部都可以再努力一點你把更你們舊所謂的政府端你自己執法的經驗端"},{"start":8542.532,"end":8570.872,"text":"能夠把這些所謂的這個棄保檢討罪的一個防治棄保檢討防治的東西把它入法變成一個更好的一個專業的依據的話那當然對於防治毒販跟詐欺犯就會有幫助嘛所以這是為什麼我一直在督促的一個緣故那比方說最近除了鍾文智之外竹北社級虐童的葉姓健身教練他也棄保檢討那這位葉教練甚至還沒有限制出境那現在查"},{"start":8571.977,"end":8588.427,"text":"逃出境外了對不對其實你就發現就牽著兩個問題嘛一個是說如果有法院可以主動註銷護照那可能就有可能阻止他跑出去那第二個就是還要回到警政署你像這個其實你就知道他在境外了"},{"start":8589.284,"end":8617.095,"text":"就知道他跑掉了所以不會說完全不知道哪些人跑到國外但我知道有些人你沒辦法確定但你至少就可確定的部分我覺得行政機關還是有責任把這個數字提供給社會大眾讓我們知悉知曉那也才能夠方便我們行政機關做後續的一個防範那麼我相信這個棄保潛逃這個問題很嚴重啦我希望我們大家都在一起繼續努力好不好謝謝"},{"start":8619.219,"end":8642.48,"text":"謝委員謝謝 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請王複密然後請黃長賜張賜 不好意思"},{"start":8646.607,"end":8664.475,"text":"委員早安大家早安今天扣合著三個主題刑事訴訟法的修法然後立法委員成了違法委員嗎還有法庭的直播到底能不能上路三個議題來進一提出我的質詢下一頁有關今天有四個"},{"start":8665.856,"end":8682.749,"text":"刑事訴訟法的修法的議案那我自己初步認為在116條之二羈押替代處分增訂得廢紙並註銷護照旅行文件希望能夠藉由修法來防止被告逃逸到境外這個我支持"},{"start":8683.649,"end":8695.73,"text":"第二個呢刑訴法101條之一預防性羈押案件要增列兒少性剝削案件避免相關的犯行者在程序進行期間再犯"},{"start":8696.209,"end":8725.346,"text":"那我個人也傾向支持但第三跟第四呢我認為就還需要再討論第449跟451條之一呢就是修正檢疫判決處刑的程序的這個部分基本上因為我不是律師我不是檢察官法官出身我基本上會尊重法律十五屆的意見那我同時也看到法務部跟司法院針對如果涉及這樣子的修法那後續也免不"},{"start":8726.147,"end":8741.102,"text":"要去增加很多法院相關的一些負擔那這些我覺得都可以再商量那第四個441條的非常上述的這個它變動了檢查總長的裁量權限"},{"start":8741.863,"end":8757.651,"text":"而且呢可能會混淆了非常上訴制度的功能所以用具體的個案的救濟有利與否來作為提醒非常上訴的要件我認為這真的是要挺看挺我大概把今天四個修法我兩個是100%支持後兩項我認為都需要再討論我表達我的立場我也看到你們的完整報告好謝謝"},{"start":8767.881,"end":8783.435,"text":"但現在就交於兩位的事我們在宣誓就職的時候都要克尊憲法 克尊國家法規這是我的宣誓每一個立法委員都是要這樣宣誓請問在台灣我們要克尊哪一國的法律"},{"start":8785.404,"end":8808.793,"text":"這簡單的ABC嘛當然是克尊中華民國的法律我真的不知道這個問題要成為今天立法院被討論的問題有民眾黨的委員呢引用中國的反分裂國家法要求行政院要遵從要克尊中國反分裂法的規定"},{"start":8810.254,"end":8825.9,"text":"然後來批判說你如果沒有去參照中國的反分裂國家法禁制的把中國定為境外敵對勢力這樣對台灣很不好喔會招致一些風險喔兩位怎麼看來 複密我們來做法治教育王複密"},{"start":8836.417,"end":8857.66,"text":"在台灣的立法委員在台灣的任何一個公民我們要遵守的是台灣中華民國憲法所制定的反滲透法還是要遵守中國所制定的反分裂國家法就這麼簡單因為立法委員也是國家機關的一部分所以當然是要遵守中華民國的法律"},{"start":8858.24,"end":8878.441,"text":"所以我們要遵守的是中華民國立法院制定的反滲透法嘛反滲透法的第二條第一款具體的針對境外敵對勢力的要件有非常清楚的定義這是立法院自己通過的法律怎麼立法委員要成了違法委員呢來 黃次長法治教育給您20秒"},{"start":8880.643,"end":8899.803,"text":"我們的確是在我們的反滲透法有對境外敵對勢力做一個立法性的定義什麼叫境外敵對勢力它包括交戰、對峙或者是主張以武力來非和平球段這個當然就會是我們反滲透法所定義的境外敵對勢力所以"},{"start":8901.545,"end":8921.068,"text":"不管政治立場是什麼不管你的政黨是什麼立法委員就要克尊中華民國的法律更何況這是立法委員自己立的法立委不要成為違法的委員立法委員成為違法委員了嗎去沖北檢沖北院請問極有法第六條規範的是什麼長次"},{"start":8932.856,"end":8950.803,"text":"它是有關於這個五院跟法院區域所在或周邊設置是禁止集會的除非有例外規定要不然是禁止集會的集合法第六條它規範了集會遊行的禁制區的四種樣態第一種就是重要的國家機關包括總統府"},{"start":8952.023,"end":8978.833,"text":"司法院考試院行政院但是立法院不算因為立法院秉持民意所以立法院我們是歡迎大家來表達不同的你的政治立場都可以所以說第一類是政府機關第二類是重要的交通設施嘛比如說機場港口是禁制區嘛第三類是軍事設施嘛重要的軍事設施不可以集會遊行嘛第四類就是駐外使館"},{"start":8979.953,"end":9003.78,"text":"對不對 我們要保護駐外使館的權益包括國際組織的駐台機構也都是極有法第六條所規範的集會遊行禁制區好 極有法是誰通過的立法院通過的立法院修法的請立法委員不要成為違法委員我今天還聽說在野黨的黨主席說他認為極有法是惡法要修"},{"start":9005.305,"end":9022.605,"text":"如果說是針對第六條要求大家真的可以討論但如果是為了方便個別的政黨為了鬥臭司法施壓司法消費司法要開放法院地檢署或是司法院能夠成為自由的"},{"start":9024.176,"end":9040.412,"text":"開放區我認為真的要深思兩位同意法院地檢署如果透過修法可以現在是禁制未來大家都可以要來抗議為了個案都可以來抗議你們的意見是什麼來我問秘書長覆名"},{"start":9042.649,"end":9065.156,"text":"司法院是反對的最主要是司法院是人民來禁用司法的一個場域這不適合開放法務部呢?地檢署被包圍基本上也是不宜因為這涉及到地檢署跟法院的莊嚴性另外可能會對個案懲辦檢察官或法官造成心理上的強制所以都為了捍衛司法的獨立公正"},{"start":9065.916,"end":9085.028,"text":"我們都不以草率的去修集遊法有關於北檢北院或司法院可以成為集會遊行的場域我真的認為要慎重理由你們剛剛都說了但是立法院我們非常歡迎立法院從過去到現在甚至世界各國的立法院國會周遭都是"},{"start":9086.008,"end":9114.687,"text":"合法可以讓大家來表達不同意見的場域包括台灣也是好下一個立法委員不要成為違法委員喔這週末就要上凱道了我再次的呼籲我們國家有法規犯罪就是犯罪違法就是違法民主不容造假不管是會選不管是作票不管是罷免案的"},{"start":9115.615,"end":9134.884,"text":"未造連署都是違法行為如果立法委員上凱道是去挺作弊我想這真的是一笑大方也一笑國際今天花了一點時間我們來做法治教育接下來呢我們來進入另一個主題喔下一頁"},{"start":9135.765,"end":9155.307,"text":"也就是藍白領袖的高峰會那會中有人提出要推司法改革就是要法庭直播法庭直播下一頁直播真的不是萬能喔直播也解決不了所有的問題"},{"start":9157.608,"end":9182.307,"text":"確實2017年司改國是會議有決議但他的決議是要先落實司法的透明跟友善再逐步來開放法庭直播這應當是當初司法國是會議一個完整的一個論述吧那但是我也找了資料當時的司改國是會議司法院有允諾要提出來研議開放法庭直播的草案你們有進行嗎"},{"start":9183.673,"end":9210.547,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分因為在思改國師會議期間它是一個議題所以司法院曾經做過非常周延的一個政策研討我們委託的那個學者專家就世界上就是重要這些法治國家就是進行了一個法庭直播的一個研究案然後之後我們也邀請了各方的妳要不要簡單分享一下幾個重要國際國家"},{"start":9212.728,"end":9239.338,"text":"目前來看跟我們相近的歐陸國家40省沒有人在開放的那即使是在美國他們有分聯邦跟邦就是聯邦的法制也都不開放原則上也都不開放那為什麼結論來講就是說特別是40省的法庭直播它對於法院的公正跟獨立性是很容易造成侵害是非常危險的"},{"start":9240.398,"end":9266.497,"text":"謝謝您的簡要報告所以您也說明了司法院試圖努力去提草案但是正因為我們做了這樣的研究做了這樣的評估包括去採酌世界各國的經驗也橫著台灣的司法現況所以你們才比較保留的態度我認為是可以持續研議既然有委員有倡議我們當然可以研議但是直播不是萬能我們還是有很多面向要考慮下一頁"},{"start":9267.578,"end":9289.128,"text":"那事實上也要替你們說一下啦在私改國是會議之後你們優先推動的司法資訊的透明公開其實已經做了相關的改革 革新譬如說2021年已經修了法庭錄音錄影及其利用保存辦法那個時候也因為疫情推我們一把所以說相關的軟硬體的建制跟辦法已經有修好 下一頁"},{"start":9290.328,"end":9312.702,"text":"那您剛講的世界各國的經驗跟保留的意見就看台灣法官協會是非常清楚的主張公開審判不等於法庭直播大家要三思各類訴訟參與者面對媒體傳播所承受的心理壓力是否影響到證人到庭作證的意願"},{"start":9313.723,"end":9329.667,"text":"被告是不是也會因此直播而面臨了全民公審導致司法的摯愛難行甚至影響判決的公正性所以說必須妥適去權衡公開直播的公益性與訴訟參與者的基本權"},{"start":9334.42,"end":9351.354,"text":"一個是公益性大家想要直播想要透明想要公開但另外一邊訴訟當事者他才是這個案件的核心他的權益基本權是不容去強害的所以法官協會的意見都告訴我們還要再三思喔下一頁"},{"start":9352.871,"end":9376.44,"text":"事實上你們的預算現在也提出解凍案了史上被凍結最高的一次司法院的預算事實上這是2017年司改國是會議之後就已經有人替你們試算了如果說各級法院要事實審要法院法庭直播的話成本是非常高的你不管是自建直播系統或是採用租賃的系統那些都是一來一去"},{"start":9378.257,"end":9399.953,"text":"有一個數字是如果是租賃的方式像立法院我們的直播租賃的方式如果以你法院因為呢每年平均開庭五十七萬四千多次我們事實審法庭有五百九十八間可能要五百九十三億啊五百九十三億啊要推動的委員請三思國家的成本能夠來負擔嗎最後也也就是"},{"start":9403.188,"end":9420.336,"text":"有違各自法的保障將不利於事實的調查而且有違無罪推定的原則而且恐怕會影響法官的心證基於這些理由我今天再一次透過我的質詢我想我們可以持續演繹"},{"start":9421.417,"end":9445.877,"text":"可以持續研議但是直播不能解決所有的問題直播不是萬能立法委員也不要一直以直播來作為直播就萬歲直播就萬能在司法的領域上我認為這個是要深思熟慮的公開透明不等於全程直播能夠做到的司法的禁用友善"},{"start":9446.818,"end":9471.309,"text":"透明 公開 我們持續在其他的制度配套來推動好 我們一起加油 辛苦了 謝謝謝主席好 謝謝 那我們接下來請羅志強委員代理主席他來了嗎沒關係 因為他剛剛已經有跟我說那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9477.607,"end":9479.112,"text":"我已經宣告 就先休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":9786.001,"end":9812.131,"text":"好有請吳宗憲委員好謝謝那我們請法務部司法院還有調查局還有警政署好有請各單位我也好我們還是要等一下複密複密還沒進來複密"},{"start":9835.95,"end":9863.232,"text":"好 謝謝各位 各位早安我先請教那個法務部跟司法院我看了一下你們今天針對陳廷輝委員所提的檢疫判決處刑制度的修正草案那你們不支持的原因主要是因為認為說司法資源的有限性嘛那如果說限縮使用可能會造成司法的負擔是不是 請問法務部跟司法院是委員可以說明嗎"},{"start":9864.887,"end":9883.122,"text":"沒關係你們的報告已經有了所以我想這個是主軸對不對就主要司法資源就是說原因是什麼為什麼我們認為說會影響到排擠掉那個資源這個我當然知道整個制度的狀況我知道可不可以直接下判決不用通知當事人等等的"},{"start":9883.883,"end":9909.221,"text":"那我想說我是也蠻大程度的認同說目前司法的資源其實是有限不管是在司法院或者是法務部其實資源都是有限但是因為我最近看了一些狀況包括高院就是放了中文字的事情等等的其實在有限的司法資源之下其實我們"},{"start":9911.945,"end":9927.533,"text":"應該我們對於這個司法資源的使用應該是放在真正的重刑犯上面而不是輕罪 更不是無辜的人民所以我昨天我在質詢的時候有提到說其實我們認為的司法應該是"},{"start":9928.673,"end":9956.406,"text":"司法是要對付犯罪而不是拿來當作政治的工具更何況司法的資源是有限的所以在使用上面應該要更去思考怎麼樣對國家人民有利那我們今天審的法案都是刑事訴訟法的條文那這個法呢其實刑事訴訟法它最大的精神是在於說要發現真實還有執行一個正當的法律程序來保障受訓問者而不是說一昧的事實調查"},{"start":9957.406,"end":9978.534,"text":"不是說今天這個人有構成犯罪那我就動用所有國家的偵查力量去對付他譬如說有一個人侵占遺失物那我是不是要開始大量的搜索羈押詢問然後只為了發現他有沒有侵占遺失物的這個事實我想司法不是這樣用所以在刑事訴訟程序上面有犯罪就應該偵辦但是永遠"},{"start":9979.614,"end":10004.919,"text":"比喻原則是我們在衡量手段以及目的性的一個很重要考量尤其是在司法資源有限的情況下怎麼做其實才是一個真正重要所以除了不該一昧的就是你們就是拿說犯罪事實調查這個當作藉口之外其實你們要考量的是怎麼樣去保障正當法律的程序那這譬如說"},{"start":10005.999,"end":10022.526,"text":"比例原則有沒有去注意到公正公平的手段有沒有去注意到我想這個是我們每個司法人員因為司法人員國家訓練我們一個司法官訓練所出來的像兩位跟我國家是要花非常多錢才能把你訓練出來的我想花那麼多錢訓練出來的從業人員應該這是我們一定要"},{"start":10026.388,"end":10037.2,"text":"遵守的一個原則嘛 就是在訴訟上面偵查上面 審判上面有沒有符合比例原則以及公平公正合乎訴訟程序的手段我想兩位認不認同這個說法認同好 謝謝"},{"start":10041.187,"end":10056.2,"text":"所以昨天我在質詢的時候遇到一個狀況就是其實人民納稅給你去發薪水絕對不是讓你說6點半去老民而且我們6點半會去一定是搜索或執行GT才有可能"},{"start":10056.92,"end":10073.945,"text":"那六點半去送達傳票這個我還真的沒聽過我想請教次長次長那個你是我檢查實習的時候的老師所以我一直尊稱你是老師嘛那以前是因為你對我影響很大所以我一路以來我就是選擇一定要當檢察官不是當法官因為我覺得偵查犯罪"},{"start":10075.168,"end":10088.917,"text":"我很喜歡這個炸犯罪然後能夠給我們自己的成就感以及對國家的貢獻所以我想請教你我們什麼時候會在六點半去檢察官會指示司法警察去送大家船票我想請教次長"},{"start":10090.305,"end":10109.773,"text":"好那當然通常會在清晨這麼早通常是進行搜索進行強制處分的作為的時候就我剛講的那這個案子他送這個傳喚的方式的話但他其實他就是說他基本上他不違法但個案上妥不妥適昨天跟今天很多外界都有一些不同的意見嘛"},{"start":10110.253,"end":10125.884,"text":"我相信基隆地檢他已經聽到外界的一些聲音了就是妥適性的部分當然可以再行檢討那基本上我們認為就是說這個案他法律合法性沒有問題但妥適性要不要檢討我們尊重一下那個我們尊重這個基隆地檢的決定"},{"start":10127.265,"end":10155.159,"text":"我覺得不當的事情就是要大聲說出來如果我今天我是一個執法人員或我是一個國家公園我說我這行為沒有違法我就可以任意對人民怎麼樣我不覺得這是應該的更何況我跟市長報告你是我以前的指導老師我在那邊講嘛有誰會早上六點半派司法警察去某一個人家送船票我昨天還請教了調查局長以及法務部長我說請問一下是請他馬上帶著走還是只是通知他另外到庭時間"},{"start":10156.46,"end":10175.597,"text":"局長是說通知另外一道庭實決那我說那就一般有物送達就好了為什麼要警察早上六點半去好 就我們今天發現基隆有一個議員他是之前民進黨的立委候選人他直接講啊 他還公佈錄音耶這個部分是警察 警政署的部分警察到現場"},{"start":10177.605,"end":10195.403,"text":"一大早在現場 民眾要上班 還跟他說我要上班這個名字是我簽的結果警察不讓他走 一定要他做筆錄然後這個錄音是民進黨的立委候選人自己公布的那我就不知道說 這是怎麼回事"},{"start":10196.784,"end":10215.073,"text":"你基隆地檢的甲官這麼偉大嗎可以叫調查官叫警察一大早人家上班前跑去那邊把人攔下不讓他上班就是要做筆錄更何況這些人是你偵查時候認定的被害人他是可能被委簽名字的被害人"},{"start":10216.053,"end":10230.011,"text":"就你一大早跑去他家把他攔下來不讓他上班 因為要做你的筆錄請問 請問次長 請問警政署這是我們的正當法律程序嗎 我請教你請你告訴我這是不是正當的法律程序"},{"start":10230.933,"end":10245.046,"text":"跟我們報告就是說傳喚當然在政壇法律程序上面如果說看對證人還是對被告的傳喚證人除非有急迫警情但原則上要在24小時內前送達被告當然沒有這個限制那關於這一個"},{"start":10246.507,"end":10262.675,"text":"傳喚它基本上它也是對於訴訟法上對人身自由的一個自由權的一個干預它理論上都要符合相關的比例原則或相關的憲法上的原則來講是 謝謝鎮長那但是這個擺明了就是沒有慣例沒有這樣的慣例對被害人的這種傳喚"},{"start":10263.855,"end":10278.449,"text":"完全違反比例原則你跟我說這個法律沒有說不行好 那法律沒有說不行那我下次是不是五點可以送四點可以送 凌晨三點也可以送尊部長來跟我講說這是考量基隆人的特殊性那我就說"},{"start":10280.24,"end":10304.842,"text":"很多桃園人也到台北上班 那我是不是桃園就是凌晨五點去那我的助理每天從新竹到台北來上班 那是不是他四點如果要通知他是不是船票四點要送過去我說部長在鬼扯蛋 部長在亂講我說部長昨天早上記者問我說 部長就在亂講 胡說八道你今天幹到部長級的人 你還在國會的這邊胡扯"},{"start":10305.936,"end":10326.77,"text":"那我覺得這不應該啦 更何況 因為昨天我在問的是調查官去現場問到底是送達通知書還是製作筆錄 還是要帶走那局長跟我說只是去送達改天要開庭的通知書但是我們今天看到警政署的這個部分是直接把它攔下來做筆錄"},{"start":10327.931,"end":10353.888,"text":"但是我不能確定大法官是不是請他 是把他攔下來做筆錄但是如果是的話 那昨天局長跟部長在這裡就騙我了雖然大法官認為說 政務官來這邊背詢說謊沒事但是我覺得這也不是我們認同跟支持的一件事情那我再講一個 因為剛剛的新聞說宜蘭的黨部也被收鎖那我跟各位報告一件事情"},{"start":10355.154,"end":10378.2,"text":"我們從基隆的案子來看基隆的案子基隆罷免林佩祥的領銜人他還在臉書感謝調查站可以讓他喬到下午再去接受詢問還謝謝調查官的什麼善意好那結果呢罷免綠營團體的搜索羈押"},{"start":10383.049,"end":10393.035,"text":"一大早去把你帶走那我們今天遇到的狀況是什麼你今天只要是罷免民進黨立法委員的"},{"start":10394.76,"end":10418.546,"text":"領銜人就是開始就把你搜索 羈押 大肆的給你查辦那罷免藍營的呢 他用力查辦的對象是誰竟然是連署人耶 竟然是被害人耶結果領銜人可以 哇 他說下午再問就下午再問還可以在臉書上面發言 感謝調查站的善意這是多麼荒謬啊"},{"start":10419.639,"end":10437.209,"text":"我想請教一下這是多麼的荒謬今天你遇到你司法在處理事情的時候竟然可以如此的區別對待我自己看到就是這樣啦今天只要是罷免綠營的支持者那你就是狂殺狂砍"},{"start":10439.349,"end":10458.116,"text":"那今天罷免藍營的人 那你就對於所謂的支持的被害人 你就狂殺狂砍我真的沒有辦法想像司法怎麼會到今天那我不想問部長 因為部長每次都跟我說 干涉個案就是個案不討論 我已經發現部長的SOP了 你只要問他"},{"start":10463.318,"end":10481.493,"text":"罷免跟藍營有關的 他就跟你講個案然後護航 我們的執法執行人員都沒問題早上去問被害人 是因為基隆人有這樣的特殊需求結果你問到他罷免綠營的人的事情的時候他就開始跟你 這個案我不討論喔 這支個案喔"},{"start":10483.334,"end":10511.312,"text":"他永遠都是雙標這樣對我那我也說我昨天氣到跟部長說我說我也是內行人不要在那邊跟我講外行話你司法今天有沒有雙標次長我不用你回答這句話次長你是我以前的老師你也是讓我決心要走檢察官這條路的人你真的覺得今天的司法走到今天這樣我們是不是其實回到家其實可能眼淚都要流出來了怎麼司法會配合政客玩到今天這個地步"},{"start":10512.902,"end":10535.233,"text":"調查局也是 警政署也是這是我們當年從市長官訓練所出來的時候追求的司法那我跟市長 跟老師報告我在國民黨執政的時候 我辦劉正宏 劉正子 我是辦得多用力民進黨執政的時候 我辦鄭文燦他們 我辦得多用力因為這個都是 我等於是在對抗當時的任何一個執政黨"},{"start":10537.175,"end":10562.376,"text":"因為我心中司法就是公正的處理每個案子我每一次辦完都被關切都有人對我不爽但我覺得那個就是一個司法人員的宿命我們就是要起來對抗強權結果我今天看到的完全不是這樣次長這個部分真的你就不用回答所以我認為犯罪該辦就辦這我絕對百分之百支持但是犯罪的時候不應該區別對待"},{"start":10565.27,"end":10577.756,"text":"在最近這個連署的這個案子裡面其實可能發生的就是違簽姓名的偽造文書啦這是犯罪 我一直說這個是犯罪但是我們希望的是能夠公平的對待所以剛剛吳孝文跟大家說"},{"start":10579.175,"end":10598.987,"text":"什麼什麼去集會什麼4.26去集會怎麼樣然後這個你們認為這個不是犯罪什麼等等之類就覺得這些人都是在誤導國人因為我們今天主張的是我剛剛所說的你在針對同樣的事情的時候你是採取不一樣的對待方式我是對於司法的不公執行方式的不公"},{"start":10599.747,"end":10616.669,"text":"我在抗議的是這個事絕對不是我說偽造文書沒有過程犯罪我從幾個月前我在立法院的國事論壇上面我就公開的說偽造文書不管哪一檔只要你偽簽偽造聯署書就是犯罪所以不要在那邊"},{"start":10617.383,"end":10644.756,"text":"胡扯這些事情還有我再提一個3月17號的時候中選會的副主委有說二階段連署的格式只能由選務機關發出來也就是說他所有的格式都不能夠有自己設計的如果有的話他自己說他副主委自己說有違反公職人員選罷法還有刑法等等的相關責任而且他講得細到說各個"},{"start":10645.97,"end":10674.375,"text":"名冊格式這個標題文字字體名各欄次次序長寬的等等這個只要有問題那就是違法結果呢我們發現花蓮花蓮有4000份的格式有問題結果到現在呢有搜索嗎沒有啊有大量傳喚嗎沒有啊所以這到底是怎麼回事呢那我們再想這兩天聽到的說什麼新竹的林志傑"},{"start":10675.618,"end":10698.114,"text":"前立委參選人 他叫大家來簽聯署 然後會請喝咖啡 吃蛋糕那這個我們一聽到 這個絕對是會選嘛但現在呢 也沒有沒有任何的動作 但是我們看到的你對於其他的地方像譬如說今天對宜蘭 就超級有效率然後趕快去搜索 然後把人現在全部都帶回去飼料處"},{"start":10700.697,"end":10728.741,"text":"然後在做這種事情所以這就是我心裡覺得我心裡覺得不公平啦我是替人民出來講話我對這國家這個司法對於人民是不公平的而且部長昨天局長趕在這邊跟我講我們都是依法處理我跟你講鬼才信啦我今天幹過20年檢察官我很清楚這些長官在玩什麼東西只是這一次的長官玩的比以前嚴重更多"},{"start":10730.493,"end":10757.866,"text":"國民黨執政時代他們有沒有這樣碰大家心知肚明民進黨執政時代他們有沒有這樣碰大家也心知肚明但是我所看到的是這一屆玩得最誇張最離譜那各位都是國家真正很強的棟樑那我也不管大家我也不在乎大家政治思想是什麼但是是不是我們在執行司法執行公務的時候就心裡那一把尺我也有我自己的政治傾向但是在過往我不管在辦"},{"start":10758.946,"end":10786.691,"text":"國民黨的劉家或是在辦民進黨的次長我永遠心裡就那把尺就是司法怎麼樣我就怎麼辦我即使辦到後來部長對我都很不諒解我還是堅持辦因為這是司法人員的堅持嘛我辦劉家也被他們檢舉了好多年啦我也從來沒有說怨恨他們什麼就是我覺得該怎麼做我記得次長你也曾經打過一通電話給我"},{"start":10788.632,"end":10813.297,"text":"你在處理劉佳那時候告我的案子那個時候你應該臨時在法務部處理這案子我那時候在桃檢 你有打電話跟我問一下整個內景狀況 我有跟你回覆所以我們是提著人頭在辦案 在對抗強權但是現在的司法的長官們是怎麼在做的好 那我再請教一下次長次長"},{"start":10816.067,"end":10832.047,"text":"花蓮的這個案子後來講說為什麼這4000份有問題卻沒有提告那當時的花蓮地檢說因為沒有人來告啊那我想請問一下次長沒有人檢舉的案子非告訴難用的案子地檢署就不用發動偵查嗎"},{"start":10833.548,"end":10855.707,"text":"當然不是 講關於告訴告發自首或其他刑事自由犯罪嫌疑及應急開始偵辦是 謝謝次長 謝謝老師那我想檢報分案也是檢方的日常那今天這麼嚴重了 大家鬧哄哄成這樣而且非常多罷免團體也都被辦的情況下花蓮地檢署竟然可以說因為沒有民眾來告 所以這四千份的事情我就沒有處理"},{"start":10856.388,"end":10874.999,"text":"然後後來是侯漢廷跑去提出告發那我的意思是說花蓮地檢的這個說法會不會太騙人民啊太侮辱人民的智商啊檢報分案是很多人民都知道的事情更何況司法人員就花蓮地檢署竟然可以說沒有啊沒有人來告啊所以我沒有辦啊"},{"start":10876.819,"end":10901.429,"text":"這個東西我也沒有辦法接受啦跟老師報告一下這個我沒有辦法接受因為我覺得這也是選擇性的不作為前面是選擇性的作為這邊是選擇性的不作為我覺得國家如果要愚民就不要讓我念書你讓我念書了大家念到博士了我們念到博士了然後你再來給我騙一堆弱智的人才會被騙的事情那這樣的國家"},{"start":10902.915,"end":10931.828,"text":"不知道在搞什麼不然你就讓我們全國人民都不要念書全部小學三年級畢業就好如果不是這樣的話請不要把大家當笨蛋看就算刪除預算一樣他叫大家不要送解凍案來他忘記了我們有好多同學跟親戚都在中央機關上班啊他們都會私下跟我說上面交代解凍案都不要送要讓人民對你們不爽對啊所以我就說這就是現在就是現在的政府我不知道現在政府到底是"},{"start":10933.203,"end":10945.53,"text":"福國利民 心存善念的在對待人民就是在搞他的政治鬥爭所以我最近對於司法的問題越來越生氣就是現在司法真的完全不是我以前想像的"},{"start":10946.991,"end":10972.828,"text":"那次長我再請教一下就是筆跡有沒有重複啊到底目前大家的判斷標準是什麼為什麼大家看一看就可以來搜索請教次長當然現在才在搜索階段他要求的這個證據能力的程度不會像到法院嘛那到法院當然通常透過鑑定的證據方法去確認這是否有違照因為在政察中他申請相關的搜索票也好他並沒有要求要證證"},{"start":10973.228,"end":10999.553,"text":"證據能力所以也許檢察官他就基於勘驗勘驗也是一個調查方法勘驗之後認為他有可能有這個偽造肢體他也許就提這個證據向法院收集好 謝長這都我們很熟悉的嘛但是我也要跟就是說跟在場的各位報告一件事情不管在高雄韓國瑜的連署案的案子或者是在北檢當時辦的郭台銘連署案的案子其實檢察官到最後都認定說"},{"start":11003.096,"end":11014.489,"text":"罷免團體領先人他們是被動的收這些聯署書他也沒有審核的能力他也沒有護意證系統可以比對真假依照現有的制度"},{"start":11018.314,"end":11036.032,"text":"確實現有的制度 北檢也說了啊 依照現行法制之下被聯署的人確實沒有無權要求民眾出具證件核實才能參加聯署那既然有這麼大漏洞 當時國民黨要提案說罷免要附身分證一本 民進黨又狂擋還在那邊騙說人民說國民黨沒收罷免權"},{"start":11038.354,"end":11061.377,"text":"其實我們希望能夠有一個嚴謹的連署結果民進黨不肯他設了一個局讓大家跳進去就現在連署了啊那他就開始說有一些事可能是有問題就像基隆一樣嘛跑到人家家裡問你說六點半問你說這是不是你連署就那個人說對啊這我簽的啊那今天你司法機關竟然可以拿了這個東西覺得兩個人的筆跡很像就可以把它當作一件刑事案件在偵辦"},{"start":11062.518,"end":11088.821,"text":"那不是就等於坐實了你原來民進黨不想要付身份證影本就是想要讓國民黨簽一簽之後反正司法都在你手上啦隨便你怎麼玩嘛他就直接拿聯署到你家去問然後說這是不是你簽的然後開始擾民開始玩這些如果今天可以要付身份證影本的話今天這個狀況大概發生的機率是非常低所以我覺得一整套套路下來民進黨就是用不停的制度以及什麼就是要玩弄國人"},{"start":11089.562,"end":11118.454,"text":"不然我們都附身分證影本大家都玩真的就好了為什麼你港到底他顯然就設一個局讓你跳可以讓他控制的司法人員可以隨便拿兩張這個筆記好像很像那我就開始去調查就變成這樣子就有司法人員陪著調查所以我想講檢察官是看證據辦案不是看政治辦案千萬不要變成今天是看政治辦案這真的是不可取"},{"start":11119.915,"end":11140.951,"text":"所以我過去20年在檢方的時候我辦了很多執政黨的人當然把我們自己搞得全身都是傷那我以前覺得受那個傷我對得起國人所以我願意這樣做那你們今天變成今天這樣讓我想說那我以前好像是笨蛋欸為什麼我會這樣逼自己要一切"},{"start":11142.062,"end":11167.985,"text":"要依法處理 要愛這個國家 要為這個國家做事我現在看到的都完全不一樣所以 罷籃的直接處理你罷團罷綠的 早上直接去處理那個趕聯署的人然後對於罷籃團體的領銜人還可以跟他 移到下午再開庭讓人家來臉書感謝這就是我看到現在的司法"},{"start":11169.704,"end":11183.098,"text":"好吧 那個 我覺得齁 我還是說啦犯罪就該偵辦但是 我不會去批評檢方啟動犯罪調查這件事所以我一路來我都沒有說你們處理八人團體是不對 但是"},{"start":11184.332,"end":11200.916,"text":"我的要求只是請公平的對待 請注意手段目的的比例原則否則在一個完全不符合比例原則這個之下我沒有辦法接受那請重視一下正當的法律程序你們目前的作為其實讓我沒有辦法溝通這些事情"},{"start":11206.547,"end":11226.443,"text":"好 那 而且我各位還要想到一件事情你們現在搜索羈押的這些人 萬一以後判無罪呢判無罪之後願意賠償 然後你也是拿全民的錢去賠給他你今天搞了這些人 達到你的政治目的結果你到最後判無罪了 你也是拿人民的錢去賠給他"},{"start":11228.516,"end":11253.699,"text":"民進黨沒事啊沒受傷啊我得到好多的政治紅利啊反正賠的是國家的預算啊也不關他的事那這是我現在看到而且我預測將來可能會面對到可能會面對到很多這種東西啦我相信會有很多人會被判無罪因為你怎麼去說他有辨識違簽的這個能力那個檢調機關真的不要變成司法鬥爭的工具"},{"start":11256.065,"end":11260.999,"text":"最後我想說 我提一個東西 因為跟今天的法案是有一點關係的"},{"start":11262.386,"end":11284.722,"text":"那個在這個PowerPoint上面我希望說你們兩週內能夠提一個報告對這個車禍過失傷害的告訴難論之罪要加強這個刑事附帶民事的這個權益的告知因為有些人他不知道就整個走完之後過了過了損害賠償的那個請求權時效因為實務上有很多人來跟我"},{"start":11285.342,"end":11302.834,"text":"跟我報怨那個陳情這個事但我跟他說這是因為法律的規定但是行政機關司法機關確實是可以可以幫忙去做這個啦好最後最後30秒給我剛吳思堯講到說那個那個禁制區的問題就是極有法禁制區廢除了我想"},{"start":11304.281,"end":11332.078,"text":"我沒有 我對要不要廢除我沒有意見但是提廢除的是民進黨當年提的耶所以吳志曉可能要回去先跟黨問一下當初是民進黨提說要廢這個禁制區不是國民黨結果他今天執政了 他又覺得禁制區要存在這就是他的雙標不管在財化法等等 國會改革 民進黨永遠在雙標好 然後呢還有就是他剛剛說立法委員不能變為法委員然後說帶隊到那個台北地檢署前面去集會當然那個集會"},{"start":11333.579,"end":11353.145,"text":"法律上面當然可以給予評價 但是我在這邊要跟各位再報告一件事那去年12月呢 青鳥要衝進立法院 然後在那邊剪斷鐵絲網然後在那邊妨害公務 毀損跟妨害公務呢那這兩個也是犯罪啊 為什麼沒有見到你說立法委員什麼時候立法委員是違法委員呢 好"},{"start":11354.405,"end":11381.639,"text":"劉四芳明明沒有指揮警察辦案的權利就他可以叫警察說要移送誰移送誰然後大家問他之後他就說違法就要辦啊那如果劉四芳違法就要辦 那劉四芳要不要辦 辦鍾佳斌因為鍾佳斌在那邊撿鐵絲網啊 那是毀損啊那要不要在那邊辦案那幾個 王定宇那幾個在那邊叫 衝進立法院趕快衝進來那個是妨礙公務啊那劉四芳要不要叫指揮警察辦案呢"},{"start":11383.263,"end":11406.31,"text":"所以我就覺得就是永遠雙標啦自己也沒有指揮的權利也在那邊說要指揮警察丟臉丟死了 連這最基本自己能做什麼都搞不清楚然後立法委員在那邊敲壞立法院的桌子 拔斷麥克風打破玻璃 晚上跑進立法院都沒事 都不是犯罪 然後到"},{"start":11408.049,"end":11416.056,"text":"到北檢前面集會 要違反極右法天大的罪好像要殺頭一樣結果你在這邊幹了一堆蠢事丟臉丟到國外摸女生屁股"},{"start":11417.385,"end":11443.645,"text":"摸女性立法委員屁股就還上很多國家的報紙頭版沒事這就是我們現在看到的所以剛剛那個吳志曉委員說啊他是今天來這邊給大家上那個法律教育課我覺得他應該自己要去上一下法律教育他自己搞不太清楚法律他自己才應該去先上法律教育課懂一下什麼是正常的法律好 不好意思謝謝各位 那麻煩兩週內能夠把這個報告給我們 可以嗎可以好 謝謝 謝謝各位"},{"start":11457.439,"end":11485.557,"text":"我們常常講剛好就好不要得了便宜還在賣乖"},{"start":11487.675,"end":11516.315,"text":"還在這裡淋牙俐齒啊在教訓在野黨今天真的是民進黨應該好好回去看看自己的黨章民進黨的黨章啊它是什麼呼籲怎麼呼籲啊法律來執行啊各位民進黨的擁護者坐在這邊的這群人聽好民進黨的黨綱"},{"start":11519.156,"end":11546.29,"text":"維護法律位階之原則並實現實質之正義立法更應遵照正義理念配合社會之發展與時並進司法也應超出黨派依法獨立審判第八條行政官僚制度"},{"start":11548.891,"end":11566.744,"text":"除了應接受其他部門嚴格監督制衡外尤其應該建立保持政治中立的制度和行動倫理以免淪為政黨統治的工具就是你們這群人就是你們這群人"},{"start":11578.503,"end":11605.751,"text":"來請那個次長跟那個副秘書長好 麻煩次長複密本席實在是很不想來詢問每一天有這麼多的公務要來執行現在有這麼多執政黨加以在野黨的糾紛我們要來處理"},{"start":11610.049,"end":11633.202,"text":"但是今天早上國民黨宜蘭縣黨部又被搜索領銜人又被帶走我不得不啊來這裡請教司法院跟法務部現在詐騙案鋪天蓋地人民的痛苦指數如此的飆高"},{"start":11638.235,"end":11663.93,"text":"國際經濟局勢的險峻百工百業產業無以為繼不知何去何從國家司法的機器卻全部聽從執政者的操弄全面對在野黨抄家滅門禮拜一禮拜三本席都有登記發言"},{"start":11666.926,"end":11690.707,"text":"一再姑念司法院應該超然這是皇后的真操一再姑念法務部回頭思案本席沒有來質詢今天早上又搜索了宜蘭縣黨部表示我們的昭偉吳宗憲吳昭偉"},{"start":11695.307,"end":11720.36,"text":"你排了一三的議程這麼多人來這裡表達爭議之聲看起來是對牛彈琴依然顧我請問一下市長現在不管是司法雙標還是清算一級到今天早上為止6比0台南"},{"start":11724.761,"end":11752.088,"text":"高雄 台北 新北 花蓮現在今天是宜蘭 抄家滅門對在野黨政府對在野黨黨部然後對執政者所提出對在野黨立委的罷免案沒有看到任何有生壓 有交保"},{"start":11753.294,"end":11781.244,"text":"甚至司法院也睡著了也沒有任何積極辦理的行為請問一下 次長本席還是要就教為什麼到基隆去查核連署人為什麼不是早上六點半去查核領銜人請回答"},{"start":11783.229,"end":11807.279,"text":"各位報告那金庸地檢自己這麼做他自己本身有發信用稿做一些澄清我們要表示就是說這個送達本身是合法但是妥適性的部分因為昨天跟今天委員大院或者媒體都有一些指證那妥適性的部分是不是要檢討市長金庸地檢他應該已經講了這麼多天了嘛你上期主管機關那你在管理什麼啊"},{"start":11809.38,"end":11818.247,"text":"這個現在已經是通案了嘛根本不是個案了嘛現在通通已經通案了嘛對在野黨所有全部不是抓人就是押人這已經變成通案了嘛怎麼還在鬼扯什麼叫個案這不是通案這什麼是通案完全同一標準"},{"start":11835.438,"end":11858.42,"text":"那不是通案 什麼是通案現在請教一下六點半 到人家敲門這種政治操作故意讓罷免攔尾這些人身受其擾群情激憤來增加罷免攔尾的"},{"start":11860.115,"end":11880.03,"text":"這樣的力道 是不是你們的目的就在這裡 是不是各位報告 我現在講的話不可能有些辦案上有什麼政治上的考量他是個案上的一個考量我想 黃市長 本席相信你啦但是本席要請教為什麼六點半去 為什麼凌晨六點半"},{"start":11882.994,"end":11900.646,"text":"那這個個案他是檢察官他去做判斷嘛但是我們因為我們法務部無法接觸到那個個案他為什麼做這樣的決定那基隆地檢署他有發布新聞稿來澄清為什麼做這樣的決定可是部長鄭明謙部長告訴我們是基隆人的生活習慣"},{"start":11903.854,"end":11930.797,"text":"你們這個是如何指導中華民國哪一個公務機關告訴你們基隆人的生活習慣是早上六點半沒有去的話就會找不到人哪一個公務機關告訴你們因為基隆地鐵署他就這個個案他本身發布了一個新聞稿澄清他為什麼在六點半送他船票為什麼他新聞稿上有一些具體說明原則上就是因為考量民眾他已經上班的便利性之類的"},{"start":11933.217,"end":11954.821,"text":"那 櫃部也認同是嗎各位這就真的是個案了 這不是我解釋 法務部認不認同的問題發這種新聞稿在騙三歲小孩 櫃部認不認同嗎如果櫃部不認同是不是要糾正嘛 是不是要糾正嘛但是他妥適性 妥不妥當 符不符合原則 這不是糾不糾正的問題他當然不妥適啊 不然你現在解釋那麼多幹什麼"},{"start":11962.369,"end":11978.632,"text":"你們做了什麼採處沒有嗎各位他個案上還在偵辦我們部什麼叫做個案金融地檢他這個個案跟委員講你們不採處就是默認是嗎這個不會啊那以後桃園就是五點半新竹是四點半 凌晨"},{"start":11981.59,"end":12004.238,"text":"如果你們放任下去就是這樣嗎不是嗎?鮑文我們沒有放任這不是我們法務部叫他這個個案檢察官他自己的判斷他認為他個案上他要做這樣子的決定所以法務部是一個無能的法務部完全無法約束製作網文就是了跟我們報告個案上他本來就不應該來報告法務部法務部本來就反而不應該去報現在你造成社會關注了嘛"},{"start":12005.898,"end":12031.068,"text":"那你布局的態度是什麼嘛你剛剛不是說不妥適嗎我不是說妥不妥適 個案上要去檢討你剛剛不是講不妥適嗎我沒有說我妥不妥適外界這兩天檢討那既然是不妥適那你們採取的方式是什麼嘛我剛才沒有說他妥不妥適據法務部來講 我說這兩天外界包括大院已經做相關的一些執政我相信基隆地檢他會做一些妥適性的檢討我剛才是這樣子跟大院回答的我們就來看你們現在法務部"},{"start":12035.885,"end":12062.344,"text":"在鄭明謙部長帶領之下所形塑的通案我們看一下法律行為的比較違照文書跟共諜現在不是呼天搶地從賴清德到卓榮泰到所有的執政者都在喊抓共諜說在野黨都是共諜"},{"start":12065.208,"end":12094.213,"text":"全部在執政黨的窩裡面請問一下法務部是用什麼樣的標準用什麼樣的標準抓到重大的共諜20萬交保抓到所謂的偽造文書在野黨要生壓五年以下有期徒刑要生壓無期徒刑的"},{"start":12098.455,"end":12122.965,"text":"這種處罰20萬交保能不能跟全國國人說明一下不要跟我扯個案法務部的標準非常簡單我們的檢察官獨立規範或者法官法甚至使用這種法都要求檢察官要客觀性中立性這是保持我們檢察官品味的要求那檢察官的法務部的標準很簡單個案上就是依照證據依照我們相關的法律依法來偵辦這就是法務部的標準"},{"start":12124.178,"end":12146.646,"text":"你們還在這裡齒言是嗎講到臉不紅氣不喘 以後怎麼教學生嘛今天你的對答跟歷史上今天所發生的事情你要如何面對來 請副秘書長您代表司法院這是法院的裁處對 在野黨"},{"start":12153.124,"end":12155.186,"text":"有這麼多的收押對於匪諜窩 抓到匪諜法院裁處20萬交保請問法院這是什麼邏輯啊又是個案"},{"start":12173.293,"end":12192.61,"text":"呃 聖楚英這一件交保是在偵查中檢察官所做的決定所以這個我們沒有辦法就是跟法院所做的這一些財處做相 相比較好 謝謝那請次長看到沒有司法又 又把你打臉了檢察官自己裁定20萬交保"},{"start":12204.434,"end":12228.989,"text":"然後其他最高本性無期徒刑20萬交保然後對於在野黨國民黨疑似可能偽造文書要求生壓這就是今天檢察官很急著要升官是嗎急著要升官是嗎"},{"start":12230.732,"end":12256.979,"text":"蔣國光辦案他跟他升不升官沒有關係啊我們蔣國光辦案我們蔣國光他的看過 辦過藍營的每一個都升官嘛他的歷練我們有一定的這個資歷他不會因為沒有錯啦以後再列逐番不及備載啦當然曉得現在內閣要改組啦所以劉世芳已經薄密演出到這種情況劉世芳已經薄密演出到這種情況他說他是部長依法要告發依法要偵辦"},{"start":12258.991,"end":12282.117,"text":"真的是不得了現在每一個人啊都窮極要表現啊去看看內政委員會 劉思芳所在的內政委員會民進黨立委公然壓制公務人員不得出委員會不得上廁所逼著公務員"},{"start":12289.204,"end":12293.527,"text":"直接辦理退休這種強制行為有申辦了嗎市長有申辦了嗎"},{"start":12302.066,"end":12324.055,"text":"有證辦了嗎?根本我還不瞭解,但是如果說...就算你是話外之明,你經常說的惡行惡為你都沒有看到電視報了幾天,法務部恍然不知那也不是法務部的職長,那是假官的職長因為那些都是現行犯,那都是現行犯再過來,請問一下"},{"start":12327.711,"end":12349.469,"text":"你們現在法務部已經證明簽認了 已經認證國民黨如果遺失偽造文書是遠遠勝過共諜案共諜案不重要 抓在野黨比較重要今天調查局是哪一位"},{"start":12357.631,"end":12383.846,"text":"是哪一位 報告員 我是調查局副局長 吳義工副局長 是啊本席在這裡啊請問一下 我也不要問你啦我怕待會你也有受到什麼壓力啊但是本席要特別尤其是黃次長本席要特別提醒你全世界各個政權政黨輪替啊是實屬必然"},{"start":12386.656,"end":12408.568,"text":"黃市長你也有可能有一天當部長這個吳以工副局長你也有可能有一天當局長但是過程中的足跡請自己要保持乾淨因為很簡單嘛 你看我們吳宗憲吳委員 吳昭偉"},{"start":12411.795,"end":12440.336,"text":"怎麼不 怎麼誰能預設他可能2028他是國民黨的法務部長有很多事情會撥亂反正沙嗲離家啦不是不報時間未到本席在這裡喔來次長 那個副局長請回次長喔請教一下現在"},{"start":12442.323,"end":12468.161,"text":"選罷法選罷法對於這些幽靈人口的查核要怎麼查核我們選罷法就那個幽靈人口他有一個特別的規定他在須先的罷免或者選舉他有一個虛偽遷徙戶口他都有特別的規範一個範圍虛偽遷徙戶口對好看看一下"},{"start":12469.765,"end":12498.003,"text":"這些當選無效當選無效這個台中的這個里長因為幽靈人口當選無效來下一頁來屏東的村長遷徙幽靈人口當選無效再來高雄還有金門下一頁好上一頁上一頁這麼多當選無效是因為幽靈人口"},{"start":12500.865,"end":12529.142,"text":"在選拔法裡面幽靈人口要怎麼查核市長各位報告那個在實務上我們會跟相關的戶政機關會保持一定的聯繫啦那警察他有時候會去做一些實際的查訪或者他有沒有實際居住在他涉及的所在地戶籍機關嘛或者是在相關的投票行為的當天我們會做相關的一些查證是依照戶籍法哪一條"},{"start":12532.441,"end":12535.743,"text":"本席再告訴你依照戶籍法71條你看一下戶籍法71條戶政事務所得派員查核"},{"start":12549.574,"end":12578.35,"text":"查對校證戶籍登記資料來看是不是有實際居住的事實就是針對反制幽靈人口因為這是選罷法直接明定的違法行為而依照戶籍法當然可以去查核那請問一下花蓮的民政處處長"},{"start":12580.558,"end":12605.667,"text":"依法去校對提案人是不是幽靈人口有沒有查核的 有請護證聽好 護證人員去查核依法有沒有據依法有沒有據依法有沒有據嘛估計吧 71條寫的是什麼嘛"},{"start":12609.262,"end":12637.982,"text":"這個案我不瞭解本席問你 戶籍法71條是不是明文規定嘛戶政人員是不是可以去校正嘛查核是不是居住適時是不是有你人口是不是戶籍人員是不是可以做這些事情我不是戶籍法的主管機關法律規定就是這樣可不可以做"},{"start":12639.693,"end":12653.86,"text":"法律規定是這樣可不可以做純粹法條規定他得派員調查對校正戶籍登記事項啊法條就是這樣規定再看看行政程序法36條行政機關應應該的應職權調查證據"},{"start":12667.645,"end":12694.324,"text":"沒有調查是肚子是廢 廢吃食物的行為護身人員該不該去查核該不該去查核該不該去查核依照復籍法 他應該要查核行政程序法 更叫他應該要去查核市長 不會影響你的官位啦我法條都列給你看了嘛"},{"start":12695.777,"end":12714.987,"text":"我是一個事務官 不會影響我官位我不是一個政務官可不可以啦可不可以依法 可不可以依法查證行政懲罰三十六條 行政機關因依之前調查證據嘛 這法條這樣寫嘛那個案上我不評論就可以吧依法嘛 三十六條 要請副秘書長"},{"start":12727.017,"end":12753.752,"text":"現在這些事實都在這裡依照行政程序法跟戶籍法戶籍人員做實地幼齡人口的查核是應作為結果你們把人給收押了政治交付的任務有這麼沉重嗎國務機關依法執行"},{"start":12757.486,"end":12784.798,"text":"依法辦理就被你們收押是不是要引起寒蟬效應讓所有以後罷免 罷免藍委都不能查核是不是委員法官一定都是依照那個在個案中依照本席已經告訴你法律的依據在哪裡而且是因"},{"start":12786.266,"end":12815.18,"text":"如果公務員不作為是廢詞失誤喔在個案中有關於那個事實還有證據那個判斷的餘地這都是陳審法官他依照卷內資料他才有辦法知道的你到司法院來啊是很辛苦來代打的謝謝本席不會為難你只是適度也必須要提醒你法律的規定在那裡"},{"start":12817.464,"end":12833.56,"text":"給公務員 公務人員更寬廣的自由跟空間可以做到嗎依法辦理的空間給他們依法辦理的空間給他們依法辦理的空間可以嗎給他們依法辦理的空間可以嗎本席現在講的是通案"},{"start":12840.905,"end":12867.039,"text":"是不是應該給公務員依法辦理的空間 可以嗎法官一定會依據法律還有事證來做一個公正的判斷來 次長就是你們配合無間把一個依法執行的公務員 把他收押然後現在這個霸團現在霸團在電視的Cable跑馬燈"},{"start":12868.61,"end":12896.128,"text":"說法政府官員已經收押了所以現在大家盡量來沒有關係用跑馬燈這樣跑你們配合的真好本席再請教你一下依照這個罷免法相關的規定罷免立法委員他的罷免人員可以有多少位可以有多少位"},{"start":12897.526,"end":12901.508,"text":"罷免立法委員叫20人只能20人而且還有很多的規定在學校在很多地方都不可以公"},{"start":12927.304,"end":12950.943,"text":"公共場所也不可以學校也不可以投開票所附近也不可以現在鋪天蓋地的挨家挨戶去敲門敲門霸團挨家挨戶敲門店家挨家挨戶叫他們連署可不可以這樣可不可以這樣"},{"start":12953.001,"end":12962.246,"text":"可不可以這樣我們檢察官是有犯罪偵辦犯罪的機關可不可以這樣這是選務機關的權責我沒有辦法替選務機關來解釋這個這個已經直接公然的妨礙秘密罪嘛這都是現行犯啦不是嗎人有投票的自由秘密投票的自由啊"},{"start":12981.656,"end":13008.589,"text":"愛家戶敲門請他連署公然違法法務部是應作為或不作為你們就直接違法本席現在已經在這裡公然公然告發這個事情再過來二階偽造連署花蓮縣全國皆知4000份偽造到現在為止法務部無所動靜"},{"start":13012.267,"end":13037.503,"text":"我相信各位的官位都會保持啦再下次改組但是啊歷史會留待後人留待後人尤其學法的人法律以後會怎麼來評價各位在位的人把司法是國家最後一道防線皇后的徵鈔請把皇后的徵鈔還給人民"},{"start":13043.272,"end":13070.485,"text":"黃次長剛剛吳宗憲吳昭偉未來的吳部長已經有講了你黃老師可以認同嗎把皇后的貞昭還給人民可以嗎可以嗎檢察官他就是依法沒有在講檢察官嘛次長可不可以把皇后的貞昭還給人民司法本來就是為民服務啊"},{"start":13071.55,"end":13088.788,"text":"可不可以還給人民還給人民是什麼意思皇后的貞昭可不可以還給人民公平公正的司法本來就是應該公平公正的司法我們下一位請林淑芬委員發言上午的會議時間繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止"},{"start":13105.703,"end":13108.307,"text":"麻煩副秘書長我想最近不斷發生審判中的被告逃跑"},{"start":13122.526,"end":13144.693,"text":"那除了最有名的中文制的棄保潛逃那前幾天就是中文制的翻版竹北健身房虐童案的夜轉號也跑了一模一樣翻版所以今天要審查刑事訴訟法第116條之二關於羈押替代處分的修法"},{"start":13146.397,"end":13171.016,"text":"那基本上這兩個逃跑的都是非法潛逃的啦大概都是坐船出去的吧所以這跟護照出入境禁止大概是沒有直接相關啦但是我要講這個是因為啊這像這樣的案子都是法院沒有羈押沒有限制出境出海"},{"start":13171.809,"end":13185.876,"text":"也沒有裝設這個科技的設備監控導致人犯棄保潛逃這件事情非常嚴重也影響到司法院在人民當中雪上加霜的形象"},{"start":13187.137,"end":13209.566,"text":"那我現在要問你很具體的問題以中文字大家討論的沸沸揚揚中文字的科技監控原本是電子腳療為什麼突然改成電子手療為什麼它本來是電子腳療為什麼要刻意讓它改成電子手療這個電子手環"},{"start":13214.042,"end":13234.033,"text":"你知不知道報告委員這個我們只可以從那個卷證裡面獲悉當然就是直接那個新證要法官最清楚那我們從那個卷裡頭看到是說那個因為被告主張說他身上有那個皮膚病啊那就是說所以是那個身體有檢附證明嗎這一個部分的那個個案的資料我們他什麼時候改成電子手環"},{"start":13243.191,"end":13269.388,"text":"你們也不知道對那裁定可以改成電子手環的法官是誰法官是誰裁定可以從電子腳鐐改成電子手環看起來 看起來像是戴了一個Apple Watch就是承辦法官啊對啊 是誰啊裁定可以讓他從腳鐐變成手環蛤"},{"start":13273.308,"end":13298.392,"text":"你們不知道 她是113年3月19號改成電子手環 改很久了對她很禮遇啊 大家都知道中文字 連在立法院提案都可以拿錢了量身定制的修法 沸沸揚揚的更不要講你們這次的審判長跟你們的成審法官高院的"},{"start":13304.281,"end":13312.624,"text":"你們都還並不是非常清楚喔你們裡面誰被買了 誰有問題到現在你們都還沒有很嚴肅的去查不覺得這事情該很嚴肅的面對嗎每一個細節 哪一個成城法官才定這樣子那個 包委員這邊的資料齁那個換成那個手環的是原來的那個何怡婷就是原來做出實體判決的"},{"start":13331.132,"end":13351.838,"text":"那後來因為這個送命法官他因為離職誰啊叫什麼名字啊他去當律師了沒關係啊誰啊叫什麼名字大家要問責欸不是趕快從法官退休然後改當律師就可以了那跟之後就是說沒有再延續的何怡婷是不同的何怡婷"},{"start":13352.538,"end":13373.269,"text":"我現在問你,當初裁定改成電子手環,我不認為他直接就有可能收賄這種問題啊但是就是說,你裁定了這個,你要有正當性,你要有足夠說服大家,攤在陽光上讓大家相信的這個證明啊你有這個權利,你也負相當的責任啊,被問責啊"},{"start":13376.055,"end":13403.126,"text":"幫忙委員就那個就是科控的就那個手跟腳它兩個的效力其實是一樣的效力都是一樣哪一種比較不利於被告的逃脫我們目前有的那個實證上來看就是從有那個修法之後可以用那個用可以科控就是說你不管是手或者是那個腳之後是有用的到現在都還沒有那個脫逃的所以它是一個有效的"},{"start":13403.866,"end":13423.025,"text":"所以腳跟手 你在說什麼 有用的都沒有脫逃的曾經有一個 曾經兩度靠近海邊對 有用的都還沒有發現脫逃現在脫逃的就是你們沒有做成裁定直接審理單上改 然後就放人了"},{"start":13424.138,"end":13451.865,"text":"包括周文智 包括葉展浩 那個都是你們陳審法官你們的法院都罔顧檢察官 檢察署都認為應該要繼續監控都是法院放人家的 放人家頭上出去的 你講的真是太正確了對不對 你說效果都一樣有效我告訴你 對周文智來講 戴一個Apple Watch"},{"start":13453.188,"end":13463.497,"text":"感覺比較不引人注目啦 就像一個Apple Watch嘛 對不對如果都一樣有效 幹嘛要腳的變手 要有兩種我現在講說啊 大家一般普遍認為電子手環看起來不像電子監控 很容易隱藏啦"},{"start":13480.396,"end":13503.682,"text":"所以你說那個卷宗你們看得到嗎當初這個法官裁定讓他改成電子手環他上面怎麼寫摩擦換布 摩擦換布每一個電子腳鐐都在摩擦換布他強制處分當然有他的目的性難道他讓你很舒服嗎他上面寫摩擦換處有舉證有證明嗎"},{"start":13511.229,"end":13514.618,"text":"有嗎?有破皮的照片嗎?有醫生開具的,認為不適當的證明嗎?"},{"start":13518.872,"end":13543.728,"text":"這裡沒有原始的那個檔案我們這裡只有看到形式上的資料他的中文志為例啦他113年10月17號到期的科技監控然後在10月17號到期在10月9號審理庭上已經檢察官很明白的講有繼續實施科技設備監控的必要然後呢然後呢"},{"start":13546.008,"end":13563.673,"text":"就很奇怪啦11號上班日法官馬上要書記官聯絡檢方的助理詢問對於增加保證金2000萬的意見在書記官回覆檢察官不在時又在14號指示書記官聯繫檢察官既然已經當成"},{"start":13567.654,"end":13589.958,"text":"都已經當庭說有必要開庭的時候就說有必要繼續監控為什麼你們的法官還要這麼鍥而不捨一問再問又問當時在開庭的時候人家就講得一清二楚了一直打電話可不可以不監控暗示可不可以增加2000萬就不監控"},{"start":13594.417,"end":13600.277,"text":"那如果他這麼的他這麼的跟檢方不同意見為什麼不繼續開庭然後宰民在筆錄裡面"},{"start":13603.971,"end":13630.047,"text":"所以我現在問你一件事情就是法官就強制處分用電話方式去徵詢意見的情形是很普遍嗎很普遍嗎還是葉展浩的例子葉展浩的例子是法院沒有通知檢察官到庭沒有要求檢察官表達意見進行裁定"},{"start":13632.609,"end":13638.392,"text":"罔顧檢方在偵查階段就明確的主張要申請羈押人家檢察官一路走來都認為有申請羈押的必要然後你們也不通知檢察官要來開庭然後也不詢問他們的意見就進行裁定"},{"start":13654.741,"end":13666.479,"text":"免電子監控 免羈押 然後就跑了然後你們還可以檢方跟院方互推皮球你們的院方 院方怎麼說我想看看"},{"start":13667.287,"end":13694.853,"text":"院方對於以審當日進行裁定釋放被告即便沒有通知檢察官這個到場了但是呢 羈押替代處分已經對外宣示 媒體未報導同案被告在準備程序前檢察官自然就會知道所以沒有因為裁定未送達無從行使變告就計的狀況 OK好啦"},{"start":13696.857,"end":13721.991,"text":"這個檢方院方這樣子兩邊這樣子這個是你們的慣例是不是我現在問你啊電話用電話去這個徵詢意見很普遍嗎然後認為說我新聞有報導了你檢察官就不用裁定也不用通知來開庭你自然就明白自然就知道這是習慣嗎法院的習慣嗎現在法院都這麼的方便這麼便宜行事嗎"},{"start":13724.12,"end":13738.561,"text":"副秘書長有一些的訊問是法律規定是一定要做的譬如說像是那個羈押我不談這個我現在是講說應該做成強制處分正常程序要開庭"},{"start":13740.083,"end":13758.829,"text":"結果不開庭然後用電話詢問這是你們便宜行事方便你們法院的大改革是不是啊法定要開庭的一定會開庭那至於說開完庭人家開庭就跟你講有羈押的必要開完庭還用電話一直不斷的問還做假的這個這個叫什麼這個審理單內容上還造假造假修改內容造假跟"},{"start":13769.591,"end":13796.138,"text":"我現在問你電話徵詢的方式現在是你們便宜行事的替代中文字這一件他在12月9號開庭開庭本來就是一個正常的去詢問兩照的那個意見人家就說有繼續電子監控科技監控的必要啊法院端跟地檢署或是當事人有時候有一些聯繫的事情譬如說像是庭期或是什麼開庭就講有必要了"},{"start":13796.798,"end":13805.364,"text":"你們的法官真的是鍥而不捨 非要問到他說非要製造造假 到時候他沒意見"},{"start":13808.24,"end":13811.041,"text":"只是判斷的餘地 你們已經移送懲戒法院了"},{"start":13828.568,"end":13844.611,"text":"有關於他那個程序文本案最離譜的地方不是電話詢問欸要問的話也是法官可以直接打電話去問檢察官你們連這個都不用現在是法官的書記官打電話去問檢察官的書記官然後出現法院抽換電話記錄然後沒有正式裁定推卸責任給書記官還書記官公會出來抗議你們法院"},{"start":13857.374,"end":13885.647,"text":"司法院然後發生你們審理單沒有正式裁定審理單上面不斷的增補內容修改電話紀錄修改那個內容審理單上改內容電話紀錄AB版AB版強制處分的事情是這麼隨便嗎AB版你們沒有移送法辦不是移送懲罰法院喔他這樣子有沒有偽造公文書"},{"start":13887.482,"end":13913.944,"text":"公務員自己登載不實不是送懲戒法院你們內部的懲戒喔我講的是刑法213條公務員登載不實故意有沒有移送法辦涉及犯罪部分現在目前那個檢察署也都有在查了他們有案件在查了你們沒有自己主動移送這才是大問題"},{"start":13915.796,"end":13939.033,"text":"蛤?強制處分可以這樣子兒戲嗎?跟委員報告就是說有關於他們那個電話記錄的那個結果他們有抽換本身就程式上呢就是這個絕對是錯誤的程式什麼?程序程序上他違反了那個刑事訴訟法第40條我現在講的是那也不是你們那不是你們移送嗎?"},{"start":13940.474,"end":13958.766,"text":"這檢方自己主動偵辦司法院我們可以行政調查我們都可以行政調查行政調查我可以講完我們不是沒有注意到有犯罪的部分但是我們有權責的問題"},{"start":13961.187,"end":13974.478,"text":"第一個就是我們查出來他有這個違反了那個四十條就是你把這個東西抽換掉了嘛那我們也查出來就是說他們之間確實不是抽換啦 篡改啦 不斷的修改啦就是說他們確實呢這兩個書記官之間呢他是有電話通聯的這個我知道了我們都講清楚了我們這個事情是第一次揭露這個弊案被揭發以前"},{"start":13989.23,"end":14005.458,"text":"上面是 這個審理單上面寫的不是這樣子他寫說增加兩千萬的這個保證金然後上面也偽造了一個說 沒意見尊重你們軍院審酌 請自行審酌"},{"start":14008.154,"end":14036.983,"text":"然後大家都發現他跑了然後媒體報導了然後 陳審法官覺得 這樣子的審理單喔這些文字內容可能他會自以為涉及不法可能不行啊所以才指示書記官再加一句啦增加這個兩千萬增加兩千萬的加保然後科技可不可以不用再 不延長科技監控"},{"start":14038.502,"end":14063.034,"text":"不延長科技偵控然後如果再對上你們偽造了沒意見請軍院審酌這樣就竄得起來了而且是事發之後才竄改的事發之後才竄改的所以我在講說這是一個單一個案還是你們自己院裡面真的是知識體大你整個法院的系統螺絲吊滿地不打緊啊人模不彰啊"},{"start":14066.104,"end":14084.382,"text":"沒有正式裁定 那請問你你們怎麼通知中文字 增加保證金的也是電話打電話 打電話通知律師喔劣勢裁定 沒有正式裁定依據裡頭那個資料是打電話打電話喔 那他打電話就要來交了喔為什麼他願意交這兩千萬"},{"start":14085.657,"end":14096.705,"text":"他就是花兩千萬買一個不用電子手環就是準備要跑路了啊 你講有裝的人沒有一個跑得掉的花兩千萬買一個可以逃跑法院內部有人看不下去啦 都出來爆料許多的跡象都顯示這個跟一般法官處理的程序長情不服"},{"start":14111.972,"end":14124.39,"text":"為什麼要從電子講聊為什麼要從電子講聊改成手環那檢察官建議一定要延長科技監控他還鍥而不捨一定非要問到電話詢問問到"},{"start":14127.253,"end":14152.521,"text":"造假審理單上面造假最後連裁定都沒有還偷偷摸摸聯絡科控中心拆除電子手環這個問題很大喔不是單一喔還有葉展浩這個你們內部司法院內部啊真的是問題很大絕對不是單一個案那我現在再問你一個 副秘書長"},{"start":14153.641,"end":14173.685,"text":"本案受命法官是不是曾經擔任過律師是大家都有媒體有報導過嗎他是不是擔任過國安密帳關鍵的被告劉冠軍的這個辯護律師包委員這個資訊我是從報紙對媒體也報導報導過媒體爆料你才知道來"},{"start":14178.949,"end":14203,"text":"劉冠軍25年前涉貪將近2億,檢動發動搜索以前比檢調還要早一步,就從新竹、南寮非法偷渡中國逃了兩天以後,你們現在的陳永松法官過去的陳永松律師,不只代替劉冠軍去國安局請假"},{"start":14205.281,"end":14215.686,"text":"還幫已經跑掉的劉冠軍申請提前退伍還製造了一個劉冠軍還在台灣的假象重點來不只是這個 媒體沒有報導的"},{"start":14217.287,"end":14235.285,"text":"由冠軍偷渡的當天 陳永松法官 當時的陳永松律師他的手機訊號也被發現 也在恰巧的出現在新竹基地台他偷跑的那個地方的基地台"},{"start":14241.894,"end":14256.779,"text":"涉嫌掩護劉冠軍潛逃司法院對這個事情有掌握嗎這個是他擔任法官之前的事件對啦 但東涌事發了你們也移送懲戒法院啊"},{"start":14258.16,"end":14279.18,"text":"週刊媒體也報導他曾經是劉冠軍的辯護律師還幫劉冠軍掩護假裝他還在國內這樣子的惡紀錄你們都不用再去追還發現劉冠軍偷跑的時候他可能跟他在一起他的手機號碼就是那個偷跑的地點的手機基地台"},{"start":14280.503,"end":14294.369,"text":"他可能連掩護偷跑他都有參與天底下有這麼重大的巧合嗎重大的要犯棄保潛逃都跟你們陳永松法官有關"},{"start":14295.856,"end":14320.111,"text":"你們說你們做調查那個司法院只能就現行的法官他在法官執行職務的時候的為私行為做監督不可能一個人他沒當法官之前的時候這個我都知道好你不用講為私行為做監督為私行為我現在問你最高法院有時候哪一天要宣判會事先通知當事人嗎"},{"start":14321.132,"end":14343.297,"text":"不會對最高法院什麼時候要駁回上訴也沒有人會知道是張文智確認在最高法院他知道要定宴了他在駁回上訴的同一天他知道他知道所以立刻掌握到消息立刻逃亡這沒有內鬼通風報信嗎蛤"},{"start":14351.993,"end":14374.577,"text":"這個部分那個最高法院他有接觸過這個案件所有的這些那個同仁全部都清查過了那個最高法院這個部分並沒有洩密我如果要做壞事我還拿一支跟你們報備過的手機號碼給你清查嗎跟對方聯絡 跟壞人聯絡嗎我是要跟你講喔"},{"start":14380.137,"end":14404.165,"text":"不是一件然後這個陳永松陳永松法官這一種行為對你們未來就法官考核上你們有什麼樣的建議你覺得有什麼地方可以改革的你們多元禁用啊各種各式各樣的人都會來啊那你不覺得你們在考核上面有沒有什麼地方制度面應該精進的有沒有"},{"start":14407.273,"end":14433.76,"text":"就是收集資訊的部分還必須做收集資訊你們這麼弱你們是跟我們立委一樣都還要請求給我資訊沒有資訊就什麼都沒有立法立法不用修法立法你對人家收集人家個資資訊什麼相當的吊唁你需不需要法律工具法律保留原則需不需要你們有任何意見嗎都沒有覺得說需要改革的地方嗎"},{"start":14435.089,"end":14462.785,"text":"食物面都沒有去需要再增強去防避的嗎你看你們這種發光你說叫人家去訓施法哪有可能主委 要不要主席沒有啦 我是跟你拜託啦在野黨喔 司法院喔 今天有議長今天有秘書長不要在這裡呆呆呆這個喔 權責不相符我們在這裡問他 他也沒辦法 他也沒辦法付帳 他也呆了"},{"start":14465.356,"end":14488.651,"text":"是對啊 所以你拖在那裡 我說大法官跟院長這個人事上是不是能夠脫鉤處理啊對不對這樣下去我不曉得我們要問責誰然後誰能夠做決定誰能夠真正的帶領整個司法院進行改革你要他改革都沒大人啊 出來都沒大人啊 是要叫誰啊你可以嗎 你可以帶領改革嗎"},{"start":14495.239,"end":14507.297,"text":"副秘書長代理秘書長你覺得你有辦法嗎?包委員本人並沒有代理秘書長本人是以副秘書長的職務來接受備詢對啦 那就你的"},{"start":14509.045,"end":14537.544,"text":"就你的立場你覺得這個改革上你有辦法去有這個正當性然後有這個其實就這個制度的完善還有說就那個就是減輕大家那個負擔像我們比較迫切那個問題其實司法院都持續一直在做減輕負擔給錢給人這個大家都同意不要講給你們需要的你們想要的通通都給你們人民想要的司法改革需要的你們要給我們"},{"start":14539.966,"end":14553.94,"text":"是對啦 重點是在這裡啦今天是很不想要講這樣的這麼具體可是你們陳永松不是只有懲戒法院啦涉及違法當然還在調查啊對不對 這已經太離譜結果還有個夜展號 也這樣"},{"start":14555.982,"end":14568.909,"text":"你們內部行政管理你們的程序面的管理都難道沒有可以值得檢討之處嗎你們的職務監督都只有在鬥爭的時候才有連基隆法院都搞成沸沸揚揚的嗎你的職務監督職務監督啊"},{"start":14574.301,"end":14591.262,"text":"你們具體一點然後作為行政改革上的指標你們上面要有一個政策指引各個法院要去改革職務監督要具體一點不要抽象 不要讓權力濫用但如果你很具體的話"},{"start":14592.591,"end":14601.44,"text":"那他們才能夠做得出來啊是 對不對好啦 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝那接下來我們請張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":14609.548,"end":14627.421,"text":"楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員陳瑩委員 陳瑩委員 陳瑩委員所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 群島結束委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":14631.567,"end":14640.529,"text":"討論事項 所列議案報告及詢問完畢 決議令定期繼續審查本次會議進行到此結束 現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"160629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e526a2c7b924a38f36dc7e49bcbcbb61fdc2be5dfb0591b1bfd53b19a6b4a7811c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:32:07 - 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部長那另外我想我們另外一個地方的挑戰之後我想我們回到中央那這次修法我們提出了一個所謂的包含治安署可以集合總統府 委員甚至國安會等這個上級機關我想這個當然我們很樂見這樣的一個機制的設計跟實務的運作但是會不會因為這樣子的一個"},{"start":304.993,"end":330.175,"text":"處理上面我們在整個一個憲政體制的獨立運作還有治安署的這個集合的上面我們是不是有一個更具體的一個做法跟說明這個我想治安法這個很重要就是讓我們能夠對所有的中央的單位能夠做集合不過集合是一種協助啦做演練跟那個那至於說這個運作的細節我請那個治安署再做說明"},{"start":330.788,"end":348.346,"text":"是 我想謝謝委員這個意見那的確因為治安是一體所以我想因為以往包括這個除了行政院之外的其他四個院跟總統府還有其他的一些單位我們沒有辦法這個在法的這樣的一個授權之下做相關的集合跟協助的工作"},{"start":348.886,"end":370.422,"text":"所以因此才會有一些相關的一些沒有辦法整體來做相關的一些治安的包括情資的分享跟一些聯防的工作那修法之後我想我們就可以把整個除了行政院之外其他四個院跟總統府大家可以就整合在一起那這樣在治安的不管是聯防協助跟情資的分享上面我想就可以更完整的來推動以上"},{"start":371.423,"end":387.32,"text":"我想國安的問題是我們大家都很關切,也是大家都要注意我想部長,我們時代雜誌最近有報導AI安全公司針對美國的資訊中心發布說中國掌握了多數的AI中心"},{"start":388.321,"end":407.256,"text":"的關鍵零組件的一個供應鏈那如果這樣子蓄意的干擾可能會造成資訊中心無法取得這個附件的原件那造成癱瘓的一個現象而且更可能造成所謂的AI模型外洩的高風險攻擊那不然我們是不是有掌握這樣的一個資訊"},{"start":409.003,"end":438.483,"text":"如果說是AI的這個說算力中心或資訊中心那個當然這裡面有很多這個所謂server的component我們原則上是就是不能用大陸的產品那現在我們國內在這方面的不管是我們的這些電腦業者這個方面我們自己還蠻先進的所以我想這一塊我們不會需要中國的component才能做這些的東西"},{"start":439.163,"end":453.048,"text":"副長我想我們都肯定這次的治安法的修法方向那也期待我們藉由這樣的一個修法那能夠落實我們從中央到地方完整的一個安全的國外的防範的一個機制這大家作為來拍邊謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e58186389889a541dea427a29fd78ae4fec2be5dfb0591b1bfcd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:14:36 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另外若納稅義務人配合或者撫養直系親屬申請的承租租宅地址與納稅義務人配合這些房屋就是撫養直系親屬 測有房屋同"},{"start":139.605,"end":153.975,"text":"直轄市的不同的縣市也可以減除房屋租金或者支出的特別扣除額這些修法方向就是希望我們減輕租屋的負擔以國家財政穩固"},{"start":160.305,"end":183.525,"text":"租稅公平之間的平衡通過今天的公聽會希望能聽到大家的專家學者讓我們的年輕人還有我們一些弱勢族群包含就是我們的老人新住民還有就是需要居住的社會住宅希望大家共同來"},{"start":185.053,"end":207.547,"text":"給政府最棒最實際讓我們人民可以收回的政策才真真的是讓我們福國利民希望大家一起給我們更多的建議更多的踴躍提出更多的立法的我們還沒有足的地方讓我們立法院我們"},{"start":208.967,"end":237.44,"text":"所有的立委一起來去努力因為在我們內政今天也是在講這個議題我們希望在這個會期可以把這個問題解決不是像我們的內政部都是年底年底不到哪一年的年底才能做好我們希望我們在這個會期我們所有的努力的委員為我們的年輕人弱勢族群是我們的民眾"},{"start":239.26,"end":243.083,"text":"要福國利民的政策真正的落實謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"160678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e51fc7355c7c9126b09742596ee20a55b8d8f107d12b6de2ed3982f1fc3324547a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"13:23:19 - 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謝謝召委 有請部長好 部長我們來看一下PTT那這一份的報告2023年6月完成的美國豬肉查核報告那出國的期間是2022年9月12到9月20齁其內容所引述的這些相關事實準確性可以參考這個可供參考引用性的如何"},{"start":29.375,"end":55.348,"text":"還沒好還沒好 沒關係沒關係時間是不是暫停一下出國的時間是不是9月12到9月20那這份報告您覺得引用性參考性依據OK嗎您知道這份報告嗎2022的嗎沒關係署長可以救你署長請說"},{"start":57.67,"end":83,"text":"報告委員這邊美國豬肉的茶盒的部分我們其實是例行性對於任何進口國家的進口的廠所以是例行性的報告例行性去的時候其實同時我們會跟農業部房檢署的同仁以及專家代表我們一起我知道我知道來我們看一下這份報告第五頁裡面有提及我們英文說寫NFBAP這個制度請問一下這個制度是什麼"},{"start":88.018,"end":92.141,"text":"NFBAT從未為時已行受體數計畫部長你有掌握嗎還是部長都不知道"},{"start":108.595,"end":108.995,"text":"這個可能跟"},{"start":136.238,"end":150.785,"text":"這一個計畫就是告訴我們全國人民美國養的豬不會全部都是萊豬有58家的畜牧場的美豬是從未餵食以行受體數"},{"start":152.486,"end":169.686,"text":"部長您到底知不知道這個部分可以我做一點點署長請說好那就針對NFBAP的部分餵食的部分有58家這件事情從未餵食從未餵食的這件事情是屬於自願性的一個標示我知道"},{"start":170.327,"end":186.824,"text":"他這個是不是一個強制性的那以上簡短說明好 謝謝你的分享那我想部長今天你才知道這個計畫嗎看起來是今天才知道 我跟你提醒的但我要講的是如果他有從未為時已行受體恕的這樣子的一個美珠"},{"start":188.225,"end":212.665,"text":"那為什麼我們沒有去爭取這樣子的一個美豬來到台灣而是一定要有來寄的美豬我想林維州委員發文去詢問啦但是這一個部分並沒有得到他要的回答所以我想問一下部長您今天到底知不知道這個NFBAP所參與的這58家的美豬有多少賣到台灣"},{"start":218.535,"end":230.579,"text":"我想我先補充一下啦,這個可能要查一下因為畢竟我們在上一屆你那個周委員也是同事啦我們共同對這個問題也做了相當多的討論雖然這是進口的問題,但是我看豬肉的查核報告是你們出國的"},{"start":237.822,"end":261.857,"text":"不是其他單位出國怎麼你們完全不知道你已經眼睜睜的看著你的計劃報告裡面查到了NFBAP所有的有將近58家畜牧場是沒有用乙型受體素為什麼我們不去爭取這一部分來到台灣而不是來寄的這些萊豬呢到底沒賣到台灣那美國的NFBAP計劃的美豬賣去哪裡"},{"start":263.499,"end":285.48,"text":"報告委員其實美國進來的大部分現在其實是沒有收入金的也就是沒有PAP的部分我們有抽樣調查所以基本上是未檢出嘛對不對但是未檢出來氣但我希望是已經有這樣子的一個計畫它是基本上一定是零檢出因為它是從未餵食已行受提出"},{"start":285.86,"end":297.918,"text":"是更加能夠保障我國國人的一個健康的話那為什麼不跟他談論說這58家你賣給我們呢再來部長我再問一下NFBAP這一批美豬您知道賣到哪裡嗎"},{"start":302.816,"end":326.73,"text":"署長可以解救那這邊特別提到的上面是對消亡中國的市場部長我的答案都給你了你怎麼都沒辦法回答呢我想這件事情很嚴重我們這個PT5這個裡面報告寫得很清楚抽樣結果如未檢出則符合NFBAP可受亡中國"},{"start":327.791,"end":342.513,"text":"那如果檢出了最低最高低於最高容許量則販售非中國市場如檢出且高於最高容許量則將不與販售並停止停止檢體"},{"start":344.235,"end":366.696,"text":"這個株枝農場的一個供貨不管政策的對或錯符不符合科學的論證政務官都要為現在既定的一個政策做出辯論這無可厚非但是我還是不禁想問美豬竟然還有分成有跟沒有乙型受理樹那為什麼美國要為美國要台灣多吃有萊劑可能性高的一個美豬"},{"start":367.216,"end":395.935,"text":"而不是吃從未餵食已行受體數的這個計畫NFBAP的美豬給台灣針對美國貿易代表署剛剛許多的委員都在說了美豬加標示是所謂的貿易障礙部長您或許會說我們靠抽樣檢查不論是足批檢查或者是加強抽樣的一個檢查來把關但是美豬並未驗出萊克多巴胺並不代表沒有含萊劑"},{"start":398.021,"end":399.893,"text":"我不知道趙薇站起來速度這麼快"},{"start":401.277,"end":427.992,"text":"但是我要講的是說今天萊豬有可能還有瘦肉精但是抽樣檢驗是未驗出不代表是零檢出啊依據藥物食品安全週報第509期啊所談論的檢驗非萬能啊鋸買不良的產品我們還是希望針對美牛美豬的標示問題不是貿易障礙剛剛有許多委員在提我要講慎重的跟您報告衛福部部長邱太元部長"},{"start":428.792,"end":454.567,"text":"所有的在野黨做你的後盾所有在野黨做你的黑臉去跟美國對談的時候就告訴他我知道你有作為一個政務官為難的地方但我們在野黨作為全國人民我們當最大的黑臉讓我們來當這個黑臉告訴美國我們希望我們的國人是健康的你要去運用在野黨的反對"},{"start":455.868,"end":477.985,"text":"我們希望在這一個全國國人都希望我們團結的情況之下一起面對這樣子的一個狀況部長今天我雖然非常非常的憤慨但是我們是要作為衛福部的後盾守護國人的健康你可以認同嗎好我想我不但認同而且我也跟委員報告我想政府跟衛福部也是以"},{"start":479.688,"end":500.207,"text":"維護全民健康維護食安為最重要的一個工作最後30秒我想昨天經濟日報有一個相關的說法說世界正在重新認識美國和中國其中有提到美國農業部長被記者問到如果中國反制美國的相關農業的時候"},{"start":502.369,"end":527.984,"text":"美國農民該怎麼辦說美國的豬肉不賣中國可以賣到東南亞美國的農業部部長霸氣的回應美國的NFBAP的豬肉可以不賣去中國部長在美豬政策已經回不到原來的現在可不可以要求NFBAP的美豬賣給台灣萊豬萊牛吃那麼久也沒有看到我們能夠加入CPTPP印太經濟的架構我們還是希望會後你提供幾個"},{"start":529.425,"end":548.553,"text":"計畫給我們我們相關的資料在美國到底有多少這樣子參與NFBAP的一個計畫佔總體的比例還有相關的設施從113年到114年蘇台的美國豬肉生產設施共有幾家進口的總數量有幾家上開蘇台的美國豬肉生產的設施"},{"start":549.153,"end":576.128,"text":"參與這個NFBAP到底計畫加速又有幾家我們都希望能夠了解你們在食藥署總體在這個期間加強邊境的茶宴還有市場的稽查計畫如何這些資料我希望會後能夠提供可以嗎謝謝委員我們這個部分我們積極的其實已經有一部分資料我們盡快的做彙整謝謝好今天大家都非常踴躍都很關心這個議題部長加油好不好一起為國人健康好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1243,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（13時23分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我們來看一下PPT，這一份報告是2023年6月完成的美國豬肉查核報告，出國的期間是2022年9月12日到9月20日，其內容所引述的這些相關事實準確性，可供參考引用性如何？"],["邱部長泰源：還沒好，沒關係……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，時間是不是暫停一下？出國的時間是不是9月12日到9月20日，這份報告您覺得引用性、參考性、依據OK嗎？您知道這份報告嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這是2022的嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，署長可以救你，署長請說。"],["姜署長至剛：美國豬肉查核的部分，我們其實是例行性對於任何進口國家的進口廠，我們都會去查。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以是例行性的報告？"],["姜署長至剛：例行性，我們去的時候同時會跟農業部防檢署的同仁，以及專家代表一起協同出席。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，我們看一下這份報告的第五頁，裡面有提及英文縮寫NFBAP這個制度，請問這個制度是什麼？NFBAP，從未餵食乙型瘦體素計畫，部長有掌握嗎？還是部長都不知道？美國農業部的這份計畫書，國民黨前立委林為洲在112年10月27日曾經函詢過食藥署NFBAP的問題，衛福部也於112年11月7日函覆，預計有58家的美國豬肉生產設施參與了這一項計畫，部長你有沒有掌握啊？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個計畫就是告訴全國人民，美國養的豬不會全部都是萊豬，有58家畜牧場的美豬，是從未餵食乙型瘦體素，部長您到底知不知道？"],["姜署長至剛：這部分我可以做一點點……"],["羅委員廷瑋：署長請說。"],["姜署長至剛：針對NFBAP，餵食的部分有58家這件事情……"],["羅委員廷瑋：從未餵食。"],["姜署長至剛：從未餵食這件事情，是屬於自願性的標示。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道。"],["姜署長至剛：他這不是強制性的，以上簡單說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝你的分享，部長今天才知道這個計畫嗎？看起來是今天才知道，我提醒你的。但我要講的是，如果有從未餵食乙型瘦體素的美豬，為什麼我們沒有去爭取這樣的美豬來到臺灣，而是一定要有萊劑的美豬？之前林為洲委員發文去詢問，但是這部分並沒有得到他要的回答。所以我想問一下部長，您到底知不知道參與NFBAP的這58家美豬，有多少賣到臺灣？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能要查一下，我想上一屆林為洲委員也是同事，我們共同針對問題也做了相當多的討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對啊！你是同事啊！雖然這是進口的問題，但是我看……"],["邱部長泰源：有些數據可能我們要去查一下。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個豬肉的查核報告，是你們出國的欸！不是其他單位出國，怎麼你們完全不知道？你已經眼睜睜的看著你的計畫報告裡面查到了NFBAP，有將近58家畜牧場，是沒有用乙型瘦體素，為什麼我們不去爭取這部分來到臺灣，而不是萊劑的這些萊豬呢？到底沒賣到臺灣，那美國NFBAP計畫的美豬賣去哪裡？"],["姜署長至剛：其實現在大部分美國進來的都是沒有瘦肉精的豬肉，也就是NFBAP的部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，因為我們有抽樣調查，基本上是未檢出萊劑對不對？但我希望已經有這樣的計畫，基本上一定是零檢出，因為他是從未餵食乙型瘦體素，更加能夠保障國人的健康，為什麼不跟美國談這58家賣給我們呢？再來，部長我再問一下，您知道NFBAP這批美豬賣到哪裡嗎？署長可以解救？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊特別提到的是銷往中國的市場，除此之外我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我答案都給你了，您怎麼都沒辦法回答呢？我想這件事情很嚴重，報告裡面寫得很清楚，抽樣結果如未檢出則符合NFBAP，可售往中國；如果檢出低於最高容許量，則販售非中國市場；如檢出且高於最高容許量，則將不予販售，並停止檢體豬隻農場的供貨。不管政策對或錯、符不符合科學的論證，政務官都要為現在既定的政策做出辯論，這無可厚非。但我還是不禁想問，美豬竟然還有分有跟沒有乙型瘦體素，那為什麼美國要臺灣多吃有萊劑可能性高的美豬，而不是給臺灣從未餵食乙型瘦體素，NFBAP計畫的美豬？","針對美國貿易代表署，剛剛許多委員都在說，美豬加標示是所謂的貿易障礙，部長，您或許會說我們靠抽樣檢查，無論是逐批檢查，或者是加強抽樣檢查來把關。但是美豬並未驗出萊克多巴胺，並不代表沒有含萊劑。我不知道召委站起來速度這麼快，但我要講的是，今天萊豬有可能含有瘦肉精，但是抽樣檢驗的未驗出，不代表是零檢出。依據藥物食品安全週報第509期，談論到檢驗非萬能，拒買不良的產品，我們還是希望針對美牛、美豬的標示問題，不是貿易障礙。","剛剛有許多委員在提，我要慎重的跟您報告，衛福部部長，邱泰源部長，所有的在野黨做你的後盾，所有的在野黨做你的黑臉！去跟美國對談的時候就告訴他，我知道你有作為一個政務官為難的地方，但我們在野黨為全國人民，我們當最大的黑臉，讓我們來當這個黑臉。告訴美國，我們希望我們的國人是健康的，你要去運用在野黨的反對，在全國國人都希望我們團結的情況之下，一起面對這樣的狀況。部長，今天我雖然非常非常的憤慨，但我們還是要作為衛福部的後盾，守護國人的健康，你可以認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我不但認同，而且我也跟委員報告，政府跟衛福部也是以維護全民健康、維護食安為最重要的工作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後30秒，昨天經濟日報有一個相關的說法，說世界正在重新認識美國和中國，其中有提到美國農業部長被記者問到，如果中國反制美國相關農業的時候，美國農民該怎麼辦？說美國的豬肉不賣中國，可以賣到東南亞，美國農業部部長霸氣的回應，美國NFBAP的豬肉可以不賣去中國。部長，在美豬政策已經回不到原來的現在，可不可以要求NFBAP的美豬賣給臺灣？萊豬、萊牛吃那麼久，也沒有看到我們能夠加入CPTPP、印太經濟架構。","我還是希望會後請你們提供幾個計畫和相關的資料給我們，在美國到底有多少家參與NFBAP計畫、占總體的比例。還有相關的設施，從113年到114年，輸臺的美國豬肉生產設施共有幾家？進口的總數量有幾家？上開輸臺的美國豬肉生產設施，參與NFBAP計畫的又有幾家？我們都希望能夠瞭解。食藥署在這段期間，總體加強邊境的查驗，還有市場的稽查計畫如何？這些資料我希望會後能夠提供，可以嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，這部分我們積極的處理，其實已經有一部分資料，我們會儘快彙整，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天大家都非常踴躍，都很關心這個議題，部長加油，一起為國人健康。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝部長。接續請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e521323049dcfddbcc9742596ee20a55b8d8f107d12b6de2ed05936a7ac3d5c2cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:18:00 - 13:23:14","影片長度":"00:05:14","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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那個我先跟那個談判副總談判代表嘛是 委員好因為我們看到日本啊他們在對美國在談判這個貿易協定的時候其實採取比較硬的態度啦就是說美國要求日本要把貿易逆差歸零還包括說要出口很多農產品到日本去還甚至叫日本去買美國車"},{"start":45.25,"end":72.856,"text":"諸多的要求啦我看到日本首相其實蠻硬的石破茂說他絕對會堅守日本的利益而且他不會很快就跟他們達成協議他們會長期抗戰我希望我們台灣也秉持這樣的立場啦不要說好像美國找我們了我們就川普找我們了所以我們就什麼都投降了他要幹嘛就幹嘛一定要堅守我們的國家利益啦也不要說好像為了要很快達成協議就退讓"},{"start":73.757,"end":78.816,"text":"這一點底線一定要守住跟日本一樣我先請教一下農業部"},{"start":80.356,"end":105.647,"text":"那個紐西蘭的牛奶 紐西蘭的鮮乳現在零關稅進來嘛大家都 之前農業部也預測說因為它零關稅鮮奶進來之後呢它的價錢一定會往下降所以你們在去年的時候才推那個慢慢喝鮮奶嘛因為保護弱農嘛因為怕說紐西蘭的鮮奶便宜之後大家都去買紐西蘭的鮮奶導致國內弱農受到影響結果發現完全沒有影響他們的鮮奶價錢依然一樣"},{"start":106.772,"end":131.711,"text":"那我第一個問一下農業部你們當初是有誤判嗎應該這樣說其實推動國產應該是推動國產可溯源牛乳進到校園這件事情是為了國內的農農產業這件事情是對的那第二個紐西蘭進來到台灣的產品其實乳產品很多但是鮮乳不多他大概都是起司奶粉比較多"},{"start":132.572,"end":148.193,"text":"那當然關稅你又沒回答我的問題啦那第二你有沒有去了解一下說為什麼他都零關稅了結果他的價格還是跟之前一樣這是卡在哪裡看到兩件事情一件事情是紐西蘭自己本身因為其實出口的鮮乳也是有限那去年"},{"start":148.954,"end":164.272,"text":"能夠出口的也不多所以價格上面我不曉得是不是有這樣的影響這些我不確定那第二個近來即使成本低即使零關稅不代表他一定成本低因為每個國家包括我們自己的養牛產業的成本也會因為有影響所以這個"},{"start":165.473,"end":189.879,"text":"是次長嗎是我杜汶珍對那所以其實次長你現在講的就會讓人家覺得說去年不是大家對於這個紐西蘭牛奶零關稅這是很緊張嗎然後現在感覺是好像沒什麼差別我是覺得因為現在消費者對這個東西很多質疑啦就應該了解一下說為什麼關稅降了之後它的價格沒有下來但我要提醒農業部現在你們在跟美國談的時候其實你有注意到美國奶的問題嗎"},{"start":190.839,"end":207.933,"text":"你知道好市多因為好市多都進口加州牛奶嘛你知道他兩公升一瓶是多少錢嗎抱歉我都買你不知道齁那我跟你講齁他一瓶兩公升一瓶在好市多大概賣125到130塊啦那你知道台灣的鮮奶現在一瓶兩公升大概賣多少嗎"},{"start":210.018,"end":222.134,"text":"不知道我跟你講160到170所以美國的鮮奶是比台灣便宜很多而且好市多還是在付很多關稅的情況之下他還可以把價格壓那麼低"},{"start":223.314,"end":246.829,"text":"這個代表什麼呢這個代表說我們現在跟美國談判如果美國要求說我們在鮮奶這一塊呢零關稅的話美國的鮮奶才會很低價的進到台灣我剛剛已經舉了那個好事多的例子給你聽了那當然這個對消費者來說是個好事啦以後消費者就可以買到很便宜的鮮奶美國鮮奶但是我站在農業部的立場你一定會保護我們的弱農嘛"},{"start":247.429,"end":252.194,"text":"我一定是對所以所以你到時候就會哇又要推什麼斑斑喝鮮奶啊或者是長輩喝鮮奶啊軍人喝鮮奶啊"},{"start":255.137,"end":283.247,"text":"又會搞了一堆這個政策出來那所以我現在是提醒農業部當然站在你們的角度一定是保護假設最後談判結果是美國的牛奶有大舉入侵你們一定會推很多配套措施出來可是在推配套措施出來的時候一定要考慮到這個執行面的部分就不然的話就會跟斑斑喝鮮奶一樣搞到最後農業部就退場了為什麼呢因為發現學校沒有那個斑斑喝鮮奶的配套的設備"},{"start":284.227,"end":306.302,"text":"大家都訂保酒奶 保酒奶又不夠所以最後農業部退場然後變成地方政府看哪一個地方政府自己要執行再去執行就一團亂所以提醒這件事情美國的牛奶如果要進來你一定要做好準備農業部一定支持國內的一定要做好準備啦一定要做好準備啦因為它會比紐西蘭的鮮奶影響更大農業部一定支持國內酪農產業謝謝謝謝葉委員 謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1221,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時18分）主席，麻煩請農業部還有經貿辦公室談判代表。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：是，我先跟副總談判代表說。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是，委員好。"],["葉委員元之：我們看到日本對美國談判貿易協定的時候，其實採取比較硬的態度。美國要求日本要把貿易逆差歸零，還要出口很多農產品到日本去，甚至叫日本買美國車，有諸多要求啦！不過我看到日本首相其實滿硬的，石破茂說他絕對會堅守日本的利益，而且不會很快就跟美國達成協議，而是會長期抗戰。我希望我們臺灣也秉持這樣的立場，不要只因為美國找我們了、川普找我們了，我們就什麼都投降、任他們要幹嘛就幹嘛，一定要堅守我們的國家利益啦！也不要為了很快達成協議就退讓，這個底線一定要守住，跟日本一樣。","我請教一下農業部。紐西蘭的鮮乳現在可以零關稅進來，之前農業部也預測他們的零關稅鮮奶進來之後，鮮奶價錢一定會往下降，所以你們去年才推動班班喝鮮奶嘛！目的是保護酪農，因為害怕紐西蘭鮮奶比較便宜，大家都去買紐西蘭鮮奶，導致國內酪農受到影響，結果卻發現完全沒有影響，他們的鮮奶價錢依然一樣。所以我第一點想問農業部，你們當初是有誤判嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：第一，推動國產可溯源牛乳進到校園，這是為了國內的酪農產業，這件事情是對的。第二，紐西蘭進到臺灣的產品，其實乳產品很多，但是鮮乳不多，大概都是起司、奶粉比較多，當然關稅……"],["葉委員元之：你又沒回答我的問題，你有沒有去瞭解一下，為什麼它都零關稅了，結果價格還是跟之前一樣，這是卡在哪裡？"],["杜次長文珍：第一，紐西蘭本身出口的鮮乳也有限，去年能夠出口的也不多，所以價格上我不曉得是不是有這樣的影響，這些我不確定。第二，即使進來零關稅，不代表它一定成本低，因為每個國家，包括我們自己的養牛產業的成本，也會因為一些影響……"],["葉委員元之：所以這位是次長嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：是，我杜文珍。"],["葉委員元之：其實次長你現在講的就會讓人家覺得，去年不是大家對於紐西蘭牛奶零關稅很緊張嗎？然後現在感覺是好像沒什麼差別。我是覺得因為現在消費者對這個東西很多質疑啦！你應該瞭解一下為什麼關稅降了之後，它的價格沒有下來？我要提醒農業部，現在你們在跟美國談的時候，你有注意到美國奶的問題嗎？你知道好市多都進口加州牛奶，你知道它兩公升一瓶是多少錢嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：抱歉，我都買國產牛奶。"],["葉委員元之：你不知道，那我跟你講，兩公升一瓶在好市多，大概賣125到130元，那你知道臺灣的鮮奶，現在一瓶兩公升大概賣多少嗎？不知道？我跟你講，大概160到170元。所以美國的鮮奶是比臺灣便宜很多，而且好市多是在付很多關稅的情況之下，還可以把價格壓那麼低喔！這代表什麼呢？這代表我們現在跟美國談判，如果美國要求我們在鮮奶這一塊零關稅的話，美國的鮮奶會很低價的進到臺灣。我剛剛已經舉好市多的例子給你聽了，當然這對消費者來說是好事，以後消費者就可以買到很便宜的美國鮮奶，但是站在農業部的立場，你一定會保護我們的酪農嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：我一定支持我們國內的牛奶。"],["葉委員元之：所以你到時候就會又要推什麼班班喝鮮奶、長輩喝鮮奶、軍人喝鮮奶，搞一堆這種政策出來。我現在是提醒農業部，當然站在你們的角度一定是保護，假設最後談判結果是美國牛奶大舉入侵，你們一定會推很多配套措施出來。可是在推配套措施的時候，一定要考慮執行面的部分，不然就會跟班班喝鮮奶一樣，搞到最後農業部就退場了。為什麼？因為發現學校沒有班班喝鮮奶的配套設備，大家都訂保久奶，保久奶又不夠，所以最後農業部退場，變成看哪一個地方政府自己要執行再去執行，就一團亂。所以提醒這件事情，美國的牛奶如果要進來，你一定要做好準備。"],["杜次長文珍：農業部一定支持國內的酪農產業。"],["葉委員元之：一定要做好準備啦！因為它會比紐西蘭的鮮奶影響更大啦！"],["杜次長文珍：農業部一定支持國內酪農產業。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員，謝謝次長。接續請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5f6a352521c4f1b609742596ee20a55b8d8f107d12b6de2edb801796c5b68923c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"13:11:15 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我們請問服務部車部長部長好 部長有關這個美國貿易代表署針對2025的對外貿易的障礙評估報告我想今天早上已經有非常多的委員 大家都有請教過您因為他們再次點名台灣對美豬美牛等限制為不必要的貿易關稅的障礙"},{"start":34.265,"end":48.255,"text":"而且甚至直接要求我們要取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食物的禁令我們的賴清德總統也投書這個美國的彭博社也提到要致力於排除非關稅貿易障礙那我在質詢卓院長的時候卓院長表示會考慮國情"},{"start":54.099,"end":82.49,"text":"及國際共同標準及科學根據來與美方討論本席請部長先回憶一件事情就是當年蔡英文政府執意開放含萊豬的含萊劑的美豬美牛進口時說是為了台美關係為了FTA鋪路那當時的行政院說開放換來的會是台灣走入國際與美國簽署自由貿易協定的大門請問部長現在幾年過去了台美有簽訂FTA嗎"},{"start":85.458,"end":110.094,"text":"好 謝委員的質詢 詢問我想剛剛有提到美牛這個部分是在馬英九總統時候進來的啦那美豬當然是蔡總統這個部分那我想我們任何一個 不是 我們絕對不會因為部長我請教您 台美有簽FTA嗎還是有任何的貿易協議具體落實嗎"},{"start":112.443,"end":131.842,"text":"就這幾年過去啊台美倡議有簽訂的台美21世紀倡議所以雙方的溝通可以更為通暢所以更為通暢的意思就是說我們可以極力的表達我們反對美豬反對美牛進口在不標示產地嗎"},{"start":134.599,"end":153.926,"text":"這邊我跟委員回應一下,標示產地這件事情是一體適用的我們現在對台灣豬、美國豬、西班牙、澳洲任何一個國家的豬進入台灣都是產地標示的,都一體適用都是要標示,沒有特別的提示現在是美方要求我們,現在也是關稅談判的一個"},{"start":154.726,"end":172.287,"text":"一個他們的要求所以我們今天會在這邊當然就是希望我們衛福部這邊部長能夠具體的承諾就是說不會開放含來劑的豬肉進口也不會不用標示產地也不會開放雞排食品進入校園這個已經已經是"},{"start":174.87,"end":194.248,"text":"美豬是可以進口的不是這個可能不是現在 含萊劑的美豬是可以有標準0.01ppm是肉類的部分其實它已經是可以進口所以當時你們的食品因為有這樣的標示規定還有加強檢驗跟查驗所以我們可以看到你可以看到一下我們這個豬肉儀表板"},{"start":196.019,"end":217.207,"text":"113年國產豬肉進口豬肉都沒有檢驗出來劑為什麼就是因為我們有食品標示的規定要強制要求進口這個豬肉要進行標示還有加強檢驗跟查驗所以美豬才美國才不敢貿然把這個有來劑的美豬賣到我們國內來現在你不用標示產地之後他是不是會這樣來去進行呢"},{"start":219.837,"end":240.99,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下這裡面的進口豬肉的邊境的查驗任何一個查驗任何一個國家都會進行查驗那查驗只要符合規定我們檢驗的標準以下都會符合我看到這個美豬儀表板喔表示美國其實有不是沒有來寄的美豬可以進口給到台灣為什麼他現在"},{"start":242.631,"end":260.02,"text":"要求我們要取消這個管制的措施是不是他們就是想要賣還有萊劑的這個美竹進入到我們台灣呢我想跟委員報告其實我們對於任何一個國家進來的我們都會驗驗裡面其實有沒有是本來是有萊劑的它因為動物體會代謝"},{"start":261.621,"end":272.329,"text":"我代謝的過程中我們假如是沒有測到就是沒測到的對大概是這樣子來跟跟委員說所以我們現在的標準是這樣嗎因為我們有加強檢驗的一個標準所以就沒有目前的話我們現在你的這個豬肉儀表板我們就可以看得出來嘛那但我現在講的是現在經過談判的時候他們現在要求我們不要標示產地不要有這個基改食品可以進入到校園我想請問的部長就是說你可不可以宣示喔針對肉品標示產地還有這個"},{"start":292.164,"end":295.987,"text":"這個基改食品進入校園您在這邊宣示我們絕不讓步呢我想我們還是"},{"start":302.789,"end":321.429,"text":"維護部跟我想政府也是一樣,是對於保護人民的健康還有食安的優先,這個是一定是不變的真理但是我們所有的制定政策或者管理的規則一定要用科學的分析"},{"start":322.53,"end":338.754,"text":"剛剛已經講過了 我想前面的委員都已經特別提到我現在請教您的是 您身為衛福部長針對我們國人的食安跟我們學童的健康這個部分絕對不能讓步您會在這邊宣示嗎會在國際的標準 在科學跟國際的標準下"},{"start":345.111,"end":361.978,"text":"來做最大的一個所以您可以宣示說您絕對不會犧牲國人的食安安全跟這個健康我們淘寶的健康嗎回應委員一下所有的只要在我們的標準向下我現在請教部長不好意思處長我請教部長我想"},{"start":365.719,"end":381.525,"text":"部長其實我想今天這麼多的委員請教您的就是希望您可以在這邊您是衛福部長您應該為國人的食安要讓我們安心所以讓我們的學童安心我們保護食安是非常完整的好那您可以您可以針對這個部分我這個強烈的要求在關稅這個我們在談判的時候針對國人的食安跟我們的學童的健康絕對不能讓步"},{"start":390.609,"end":394.98,"text":"可以嗎我們那個最國人的食安絕對不會讓步好 謝謝 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請邱部長中央健保署社會及家庭署農業部次長經濟部次長"},{"start":27.48,"end":36.792,"text":"今天行政院院會通過了非常重要的就是針對因應美國對等關稅的特別條例及特別預算"},{"start":39.744,"end":61.429,"text":"本來從880億現在喊到了4100億所以他多了3220億之多那我想先請教邱太元部長增加這麼多的預算請問一下衛福部從原來的880億增加了多少預算"},{"start":65.828,"end":93.805,"text":"880億原來沒有衛福部好那現在3,220億增加了3,220億衛福部多了多少預算我想我們第一時間我們就做了衛福部所有的部門都做了盤點以及說會有部長多多少因為今天這個行政院院會公布啦好不知道沒關係來來來我們中央健保署好我們健保署相關的有關健保多了多少預算"},{"start":96.457,"end":109.187,"text":"我們也是今天上午看到新聞才知道才知道好來來我們社會及家庭署來請請準備來準備那請問一下就是增加這麼多3220億我們有關於社會及家庭這些相關的照顧有增加多少預算"},{"start":120.898,"end":128.566,"text":"那個我們也是早上才知道早上才知道對不對早上才知道好好這個謝謝你們的回答來農業部農業部的次長因為我們這次非常關心農民就是怕農民會受到一些影響所以原來880億裡面我知道有關農民的180億嘛"},{"start":145.962,"end":158.55,"text":"那好那現在多了3220億之後我就多了嘛比88增加那請問一下我們農民的部分農業部的部分增加多少預算我們應該是維持現行的還是維持180億還是只有180億所以這3220億你沒有分到"},{"start":164.451,"end":185.728,"text":"我們並沒有提出沒有提出所以就沒有分到好謝謝來請問一下經濟部經濟部政務次長江次長那麼原來880億那個應該是屬於經濟部中小企業的部分但還有勞工的部分他是企業家勞工一共是700億700億那請問一下增加了320"},{"start":194.369,"end":209.172,"text":"3220億之後請問一下經濟部這邊不管是國貿中小企業產業發展我們增加多少的預算報告委員原來經濟部的部分是410億現在增加50億所以460億所以從原來410億只增加了50億也就是說這3220億裡面我們只多增加了50億是吧"},{"start":220.454,"end":247.225,"text":"還有我們有台電的1000億對台電沒錯台電有1000億還有嗎以上是經濟部的部分經濟部的部分好謝謝因為其實我們相關部會我其實覺得我很想知道勞動部是能夠增加多少錢因為我曾經跟那個院長是希望能夠增加對勞工紓困的部分好但是我覺得我剛才經過詢問我非常"},{"start":250.207,"end":251.629,"text":"這個大大為這個差異我為什麼來問我們衛福部因為呢他在現在我所看到的資料會撥補勞健保300億但是到底"},{"start":264.843,"end":283.077,"text":"撥補勞保多少 撥補健保多少 不知道 總共300億但是我竟然衛福部並不知道然後他另外說要照顧弱勢 要增加170億那我想衛福部也是照顧弱勢的嘛衛福部就是最主要照顧弱勢的部會嘛但是部長也在狀況外我就不曉得這170億是怎麼匡列出來的所以呢 其實"},{"start":290.663,"end":303.334,"text":"按照原來880億變成4100億以現在我們所掌握的資料包含原來的支援計畫從原來880億變成930億然後勞健保300億台電1000億照顧弱勢170億提供高教人才200億TOTAL 2600億"},{"start":314.384,"end":327.65,"text":"Total 2600億 我在努力的在幫忙算因為我們這個每一分錢都是來自於民脂民膏然後這裡面呢還有1500億我不知道要用到哪裡去還有1500億 很奇怪"},{"start":331.152,"end":339.336,"text":"很奇怪我們其實今天我們行政院院會都開完了都對外宣布我還不曉得1500億到哪裡去當一送來我們就要嚴格的來審查只要該用到的"},{"start":346.52,"end":349.122,"text":"用在刀口上的提供給我們產業的勞工的勞健保的廣大的民眾需要的弱勢的我們通通都會充分的支持但是我剛才論論了一輪我發現我們這4100億到底怎麼來的非常離奇"},{"start":366.354,"end":394.709,"text":"相關的弱勢的勞健保的竟然都不知道都是看新聞才知道所以我不曉得這整個預算的編列到底它的過程出現什麼樣的問題不過我想基本上非常謝謝幾位部長還有長官讓我知道我可不可以回應一下是這樣子這個政策我想是連續的因為突然早上我們大家都在這邊開會所以"},{"start":396.05,"end":409.254,"text":"不曉得他的數據他不可能今天早上才決定啊那怎麼出鈔弱勢的這個部分尤其是獨基島的這個是一直都是我們跟行政院在爭取的那第二個部分就是"},{"start":411.275,"end":422.679,"text":"健保的一個安定基金這個部分我們也希望行政院那我聽到您這個報告跟我知道這個好消息我覺得政府能夠體諒到衛福部的需求這個部分我非常的感謝"},{"start":430.622,"end":451.785,"text":"該發的錢我們會充分支持但是編列預算總是有編列預算的程序嘛對不對尤其在公家機關或者以前當立法院一定要知道這個編列程序怎麼來的但是呢我非常訝異竟然我們這幾個主要單位是到現在在這邊或者早上看新聞才知道好 以上謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1138,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（13時3分）謝謝主席，請邱部長、中央健保署、社會及家庭署、農業部次長、經濟部次長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長還有各位長官好。今天行政院院會通過了非常重要的法案，就是針對、因應美國對等關稅的特別條例及特別預算，從本來的880億元，現在喊到4,100億元，所以多了3,220億元之多。我想先請教邱泰源部長，增加這麼多預算，衛福部相較於原來的880億方案增加了多少預算？"],["邱部長泰源：880億方案原來沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有衛福部？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：那現在增加3,220億元，衛福部多了多少預算？"],["邱部長泰源：在第一時間，衛福部所有部門都做了盤點，以及研判會有什麼風險……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，部長，我是問多多少。因為行政院院會今天公布啦！"],["邱部長泰源：就……今天的院會我沒有參加。"],["王委員鴻薇：不知道？沒關係。來，請問中央健保署，健保署有關健保的業務多了多少預算？"],["龐副署長一鳴：我們也是今天上午看到新聞……"],["王委員鴻薇：才知道？才知道，好。","請社會及家庭署。主秘，請問一下，增加這麼多、3,220億元，關於社會及家庭照顧這些業務增加多少預算？"],["田主任秘書基武：我們也是早上才知道，還需要整理。"],["王委員鴻薇：早上才知道對不對？早上才知道，好，謝謝你們的回答。","請農業部次長。我們這次非常關心農民，就是怕農民會受到一些影響。在原來的880億元裡面，我知道有關農民的是……"],["杜次長文珍：180億元。"],["王委員鴻薇：180億元嘛！那現在多了3,220億元之後，預算就多了嘛！也就是比880億元方案增加。請問一下，針對農民的部分、農業部的部分增加多少預算？"],["杜次長文珍：應該還是維持現行的預算。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是維持180億元？"],["杜次長文珍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是只有180億元？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這3,220億元你沒有分到？"],["杜次長文珍：我們並沒有提出。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有提出，所以就沒有分到？好，謝謝。","請問一下經濟部政務次長─江次長，原來的880億元應該是屬於經濟部中小企業部分，但還有勞工部分嘛！企業加勞工一共是700億元。請問一下，增加了3,220億元之後，在經濟部這邊，不管是國貿、中小企業、產業發展，增加多少預算？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，經濟部的部分原來是410億元，現在增加50億元，所以是460億元。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以比起原來的410億元只增加了50億元，也就是說，這3,220億元裡面，經濟部只增加50億元，是吧？"],["江次長文若：我們還有台電的1,000億元。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，台電有1,000億元。還有嗎？"],["江次長文若：以上是經濟部的部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，是經濟部的部分。謝謝。","其實對於相關部會，我很想知道勞動部能夠增加多少錢，因為我曾經跟院長表達，希望增加對勞工紓困的部分。但是經過剛才的詢問，我大為詫異。我為什麼問衛福部？因為照現在我所看到的資料，會撥補勞健保300億元。到底撥補勞保多少、撥補健保多少不知道，總共就是300億元，但是衛福部竟然不知道！另外，資料還說為了照顧弱勢，要增加170億元，我想衛福部也是照顧弱勢的單位─喔！衛福部就是照顧弱勢最主要的部會嘛！但是部長也在狀況外，那我就不曉得這170億元是怎麼匡列出來的。","其實，原來的880億元變成4,100億元，以現在我們所掌握的資料，包含支援計畫從原來的880億元變成930億元，然後是勞健保300億元、台電1,000億元、照顧弱勢170億元、提供高教人才200億元，總共2,600億元。我努力地幫忙算，因為每一分錢都來自民脂民膏，但是裡面還有1,500億元，我不知道要用到哪裡去。還有1,500億元，很奇怪欸！很奇怪欸！今天行政院院會都開完了、都對外宣布了，我還不知道1,500億元用到哪裡去。當然只要送來，我們就要嚴格地審查，只要是該用的、用在刀口上的、提供給產業的、勞工的、勞健保的、廣大民眾需要的、給弱勢的，我們統統會充分地支持。但是我剛才問了一輪，發現對於這4,100億元到底怎麼來的，非常離奇，相關業務機關──弱勢的、勞健保的，竟然都不知道、都是看新聞才知道，所以我不曉得整個預算的編列過程到底出現什麼樣的問題。不過，基本上非常謝謝幾位，包括部長還有長官，讓我知道……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我可不可以回應一下？"],["王委員鴻薇：好。"],["邱部長泰源：是這樣的，我想政策是連續的啦！只是突然公布，而我們大家早上都在這邊開會，所以不曉得這個數據。但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：不可能今天早上才決定啊！這麼粗糙。"],["邱部長泰源：但是在弱勢這個部分，尤其獨居老人，一直都是我們在跟行政院爭取的。第二，在健保安定基金這個部分，我們也希望行政院協助。我聽到您報告……不是報告，而是跟我指導這個好消息，我覺得……"],["王委員鴻薇：您好高興，竟然是從我嘴巴裡告訴您？"],["邱部長泰源：不，我覺得是政府能夠體諒到我們衛福部的需求，這部分我非常感謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我剛剛講了，對於該花的錢，我們會充分支持，但是編列預算時總是有編列預算的程序嘛！對不對？尤其在公家機關，或者您以前在立法院，一定要知道編列程序怎麼來的。但是我非常訝異，這幾個主要單位竟然是到現在、在這邊、或者早上看新聞才知道。好，以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接續請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e51aa1426b7c166e919742596ee20a55b8d8f107d12b6de2ed141228277b1494e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:50:35 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大家都辛苦了到現在大家還沒有休息但是為了國人的健康我覺得我們應該是要很嚴肅跟非常辛苦在這邊都是為了國人的健康來把關的4月2號美國總統川普他向全世界宣布要徵收對等關稅而我們的賴清德總統在4月6號的時候他就宣布了要以五項策略來應變請大家看一下"},{"start":29.275,"end":43.827,"text":"我想這五大策略的應變所以才是我們今天未還安排這樣的議題顯然是因為賴總統他宣布的這五大策略提到了零關稅和排除所謂的非關稅貿易障礙所以我要請衛福部的部長還有農業部的常務次長經濟部的政務次長以及行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表一起上台"},{"start":62.933,"end":91.66,"text":"我從2021年我就一直開始對於美國所謂的貿易障礙評估報告的台灣這個部分我不斷的就提出來我們的政府我警告我們的政府特別是美國他指責我們對於豬肉的標示還有牛角肉的進口還有非基改食品進入校園這些嚴格把關的政策他們說是不科學的貿易障礙"},{"start":92.64,"end":118.134,"text":"在這裡我要請台上以及台下的各位官員還有媒體朋友們注意一下貿易障礙是美國政府他用的用語而我們應該要把這些長年以來我們堅持的稱為貿易自保措施因為呢這些措施是為了要保護我們國內產業的利益還有人民的健康請問一下大家同意嗎部長"},{"start":122.745,"end":144.054,"text":"美國說是貿易障礙我們不可以跟他一起說這是貿易障礙啊我們應該說是貿易自保措施啊如果真的是站在全民的利益跟健康把關的話你同意嗎我非常敬佩我們的委員是說這些措施是為了保護國內利益跟人民的健康 沒錯吧共同堅持的那最主要的名詞我們"},{"start":145.414,"end":169.688,"text":"也敬佩委員的智慧對很好所以你也同意嘛對不對我們民主大家都會來用這樣子的立場是同意的這樣子的所謂的貿易自保措施才是真正站在台灣人民的健康跟利益來把關啊因為有了這樣子我們才可以去談判啊對嗎好最近談到的對等關稅行政院用了一個字眼叫做極端情境"},{"start":170.809,"end":174.414,"text":"那我們現在就來看一下賴清德總統他如果要替美國掃除貿易障礙之後我們台灣會面對怎麼樣的極端情境有哪些來進口的美國稻米變成零關稅"},{"start":187.752,"end":207.25,"text":"進口的美國豬肉不但零關稅還必須取消標示然後牛角肉必須要開放進口並且要零關稅基改食品零關稅並且要開放進入校園取消美國農產品的萊克多巴胺和農藥殘留容許量的限制"},{"start":210.373,"end":218.102,"text":"開發美國發芽的馬鈴薯要進口然後要取消服務貿易限制取消投資限制等等"},{"start":219.408,"end":241.062,"text":"這麼樣一來台灣的產業還有人民的健康將何去何從呢?880億的進水撲滅的了美國對等關稅跟貿易障礙所燒起來的大火嗎?我要問一個更尖銳的問題就是政府就算是用這種還沒有談判就先亮底牌的策略看一下這五個"},{"start":242.964,"end":248.206,"text":"12345是我們賴總統他已經跟美國說他準備這麼樣的做還沒有跟我們大家全民討論他就已經公開的在媒體上這樣說了然後我要問一個更尖銳的問題就是政府就算是用這種還沒有談判就先亮底牌的策略去迎合川普川普他也不見得會滿意我們看一下越南"},{"start":268.556,"end":273.24,"text":"越南就是一個例子越南他也答應要零關稅開始來談判但是川普的貿易顧問納瓦羅他直接就講不夠因為美國對越南的貿易逆差還有1200億"},{"start":284.99,"end":304.989,"text":"越南還有非關稅的作弊行為請注意一下納瓦羅的用語他不是用障礙不是用產地而呢他用的是作弊行為就好像剛剛盧憲英委員說的他用那麼樣的詞彙來對待他的好朋友台灣"},{"start":306.713,"end":323.142,"text":"這根本就是漫天喊價的勒索嘛那我們要對美國這麼樣無底洞的勒索要照單全收嗎當然我談的是越南我現在跟你談的是日本日本在美國這一次對等關稅談判他是排第一順位"},{"start":324.122,"end":338.537,"text":"而日本首相石破茂20号他就说了我们不会在食品安全的问题上面妥协再讲一次我们不会在食品安全的问题上妥协那我们呢"},{"start":339.81,"end":356.878,"text":"我們是要把美國所謂的貿易障礙當作表忠的先例嗎我們是要全部取消呢還是為了國內產業的利益和人民的健康要跟石破茂首相那樣周旋到底絕對不妥協請問一下 部長"},{"start":362.096,"end":377.049,"text":"我想我們對於人民的健康的維護食品安全的堅持這是絕對政府不會妥協的好很好講的跟石破茅一樣萬一沒有打到你怎麼辦萬一被妥協了你怎麼辦我們"},{"start":379.802,"end":406.695,"text":"不過所有的事情就是在這樣的原則之下我們還是像我們衛福部的角色就是專業的做科學的一個分析提供一個在那個按照國際的標準以及我們國人的飲食習慣的一個提供專業的意見給我們談判的一個團隊我從早上就一直聽到你在講科學這兩個字其實一講到科學我就頭皮發麻了"},{"start":407.535,"end":407.936,"text":"因為為什麼要在這邊提醒你因為"},{"start":412.83,"end":437.549,"text":"因為這個所謂的科學的重要性就是中美貿易倡議的良好法制作業這一章我相信你們都應該知道了有五個地方提到了科學而美國貿易障礙的評估報告在台灣這個部分當中美國他也指控我們沒有科學依據就有三個地方"},{"start":438.51,"end":441.412,"text":"而我曾經對陳建源院長也談過這個問題他說我們要按照科學依據尤其是美國的食品法典委員會CODES標準那請問一下我們還是按照這個標準嗎"},{"start":458.901,"end":470.485,"text":"就剛才提到的科學的標準的部分我們其實對於科學這一塊定下來以外另外配的是國人的飲食調查裡面的國人營養調查的數據會有國人的飲食的特殊性那我們的特殊性是什麼我們知道吃很多啊"},{"start":482.989,"end":486.911,"text":"所以這個東西都重新都算過了所以算完之後呢我們訂出來標準一直以來按照這個標準我們在邊境裡面查查所以你的科學所謂的科學是美國都接受的"},{"start":499.355,"end":511.004,"text":"我覺得它是Universal的是全世界都會共同認定這是可以的錯了 你是食藥署對吧是的 你知不知道歐盟它是拒絕基改食品它依據的是什麼它依據的是卡塔赫納生物安全議定書"},{"start":518.29,"end":545.867,"text":"這個也包括日本也用這個所謂的議定書來拒絕美國的基品食物然後進入到校園所以呢我今天為什麼要請三五位上來尤其是談判總代表處是吧嚴惠欣副總談判代表對吧好你是行政院經貿談判辦公室很重要是"},{"start":547.148,"end":572.983,"text":"那您認為您認為你們要怎麼樣在談判的過程捍衛堅持台灣人民的利益還有健康我想我們基本上我要講我們跟美國的談判不是只有專門只有談這個美豬美牛的議題然後我們基本還有什麼議題我想對等關稅的來人拿一下我們賴總統那個五個再放一下這個嗎"},{"start":579.427,"end":591.318,"text":"跟這個都有關係嗎對等關稅的來源確實就是來自於川普政府他們自己宣布對等關稅的背景是因為其他的關稅各國的關稅太高還有非關稅障礙還有匯率的問題以及各國還有一些境內稅這些貨物稅的問題"},{"start":595.522,"end":608.95,"text":"那是總結這些來說所以他希望各國要去看待他們自己國內是不是確實有這些美國所關切的所以談判應該是怎麼樣知己知彼對吧是談判最重要的是你是台灣的代表對吧"},{"start":610.253,"end":626.491,"text":"沒錯台灣是不是應該代表2300萬人民站在第一線捍衛我們的權益這是我們的責任好如果這一次沒有辦法捍衛到人民的健康跟利益你們該怎麼辦如何向國人交代我想我們一定距離一生"},{"start":630.18,"end":651.512,"text":"只有據理力爭嗎有任何的需要我想這個都需要朝野的共識所以我們一定會來爭取我們絕對是同意的啊我們絕對堅決站在你們的背後啊對謝謝委員絕對是啊但是我現在要講的是萬一今天達不到我們說的捍衛人民的利益跟健康該怎麼辦你們"},{"start":653.88,"end":662.327,"text":"我想國人的健康不會是談判的籌碼我們一定是這個是我們的基本立場好 你能不能學剛剛那個部長一樣講的講得更清楚一點當你們去談判 因為你們已經有視訊談判了嘛"},{"start":671.455,"end":687.633,"text":"因為我的總職群院長告訴我已經有視訊了然後近期馬上就會統整視訊談判當中所談到的問題然後直接的進入到核心來談判所以你們已經有一個想法了也有一個談判的要點跟籌碼了"},{"start":692.287,"end":699.292,"text":"我們現在正在統整各個 還在統整啊還在統整 縱使已經有了一次的這個所謂的這個視訊談判 你們還正在統整視訊是交換 讓大家增進了解我們也是要確認美國實際上視訊 那請問會談判幾次這個完全是我們現在正在進行當中的議題幾次都不知道啊 有沒有在你們的規劃當中"},{"start":718.867,"end":747.426,"text":"就是这个部分都是持续在进行的所以你们认为你们准备充分了吗我相信我们是广泛的去收集各种情资目的就是要让台湾的准备好如果今天我在这边全民都在看全民都在等召委特别安排了这一次的这个委员会让你们来做说明跟报告就是全民都认为这是非常严重的事情甚至于是台湾的国难"},{"start":748.618,"end":761.251,"text":"所以你們要秉持著跟石破茂一樣的精神告訴美國告訴他說人民的健康人民的利益是你們不允許被美國這樣子踐踏的可以嗎了解在這樣的基礎上面去談判可以嗎了解我們會我們會具體例證好我們都在等我們都在看謝謝好謝謝高靜雯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1069,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（12時50分）謝謝召委，大家都辛苦了，到現在還沒有休息，但是為了國人的健康，我覺得我們應該要很嚴肅，非常辛苦在這邊都是為了國人的健康來把關。4月2日美國總統川普向全世界宣布要徵收對等關稅，而我們的賴清德總統則在4月6日的時候就宣布了要以五項策略來應變，請大家看一下。我想今天衛環安排這樣的議題，顯然是因為賴總統宣布的這五大策略提到了零關稅和排除所謂的非關稅貿易障礙，所以我要請衛福部的部長，還有農業部的常務次長、經濟部的政務次長，以及行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表一起上臺。","我從2021年開始，對於美國的貿易障礙評估報告的臺灣這個部分，我就不斷地提出來，我警告我們的政府，特別是美國指責我們對於豬肉的標示、牛絞肉的進口及非基改食品進入校園這些嚴格把關的政策，他們說是不科學的貿易障礙，在這裡我要請臺上以及臺下的各位官員還有媒體朋友們注意一下，「貿易障礙」是美國政府的用語，而我們應該要把這些長年以來的堅持稱為「貿易自保措施」，因為這些措施是為了要保護我們國內產業的利益還有人民的健康，請問一下，大家同意嗎？部長，美國說是貿易障礙，我們不可以跟著它一起說這是貿易障礙啊！我們應該說是貿易自保措施啊！如果真的是站在全民的利益跟健康把關的話，你同意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我非常敬佩委員，這些措施是為了保護國內產業的利益跟人民的健康……"],["高金委員素梅：對，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長泰源：這是我們共同堅持的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好。"],["邱部長泰源：至於用怎麼樣的名詞，我們也敬佩委員的智慧，我們來……"],["高金委員素梅：對，很好，所以你也同意嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：那個名詞大家可以來用一個最適當的……"],["高金委員素梅：這樣子的立場是同意的，所謂的貿易自保措施才是真正站在臺灣人民的健康跟利益來把關啊！因為有了這樣子，我們才可以去談判啊！對嗎？","好，最近談到的對等關稅，行政院用了一個字眼叫做「極端情境」，我們現在就來看一下，賴清德總統他如果要替美國掃除貿易障礙之後，我們臺灣會面對怎麼樣的極端情境？有哪些？來，進口的美國稻米變成零關稅；進口的美國豬肉不但零關稅，還必須取消標示；牛絞肉必須要開放進口，並且要零關稅；基改食品零關稅，並且要開放進入校園；取消美國農產品的萊克多巴胺和農藥殘留容許量的限制；開放美國發芽的馬鈴薯進口，然後要取消服務貿易限制、取消投資限制等等，這麼一來，臺灣的產業還有人民的健康將何去何從呢？880億的近水撲滅得了美國對等關稅與貿易障礙所燒起來的大火嗎？我要問一個更尖銳的問題，就是政府就算是用這種還沒有談判就先亮底牌的策略，看一下這五個，一、二、三、四、五是我們賴總統，他已經跟美國說他準備這麼樣的做，還沒有跟我們大家全民討論喔，他就已經公開的在媒體上這樣說了。然後我要問一個更尖銳的問題，就是政府就算是用這種還沒有談判就先亮底牌的策略去迎合川普，川普他也不見得會滿意啊，我們看一下越南，越南就是一個例子，越南也答應要零關稅開始來談判，但是川普的貿易顧問納瓦羅直接就講說不夠，因為美國對越南的貿易逆差還有1,200億，越南還有非關稅的作弊行為，請注意一下納瓦羅的用語，他不是用障礙，不是用產地，他用的是作弊行為，就好像剛剛盧縣一委員說的，他用那麼樣的詞彙來對待他的好朋友──臺灣，這根本就是漫天喊價的勒索嘛！我們對美國這麼樣無底洞的勒索要照單全收嗎？當然，我談的是越南。","我現在要跟你談的是日本，日本在美國這一次對等關稅談判，它是排第一順位，而日本首相石破茂20號就說了「我們不會在食品安全的問題上面妥協」，再講一次，他說「我們不會在食品安全的問題上妥協」，那我們呢？我們是要把美國所謂的貿易障礙當作表忠的獻禮嗎？我們是要全部取消呢？還是為了國內產業的利益和人民的健康，要跟石破茂首相那樣周旋到底，絕對不妥協？請問一下部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，我想我們對於人民健康的維護、食品安全的堅持，這是政府絕對不會妥協的。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，你講的跟石破茂一樣，但萬一沒有達到你怎麼辦？萬一被妥協了你怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：不過所有的事情，就是在這樣的原則之下，我們還是……像我們衛福部的角色就是專業的、做科學的分析，提供一個按照國際的標準以及我們國人飲食習慣的一個意見，提供專業的意見給我們的談判團隊。"],["高金委員素梅：我從早上就一直聽到你在講「科學」這兩個字，其實一講到科學，我就頭皮發麻了，為什麼呢？我要在這邊提醒你，因為這個所謂的科學的重要性，就是中美貿易倡議的良好法制作業這一章，我相信你們都應該知道了，有五個地方提到了科學，而美國貿易障礙的評估報告，在臺灣這個部分當中，美國也指控我們沒有科學依據，一共有三個地方，而我曾經對陳建仁院長也談過這個問題，他說「我們要按照科學依據，尤其是美國的食品法典委員會（Codex）的標準」，那請問一下，我們還是按照這個標準嗎？請問一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我請署長說明一下。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，就剛才提到科學標準的部分，我們其實對於科學這一塊定下來以外，另外配的是國人的飲食調查裡面的國人營養調查的數據……"],["高金委員素梅：營養調查部落最多啊！"],["姜署長至剛：國人會有國人的飲食的特殊性，所以在這種特殊性之下，評估出來……"],["高金委員素梅：那我們特殊性是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：我們特殊性裡面的飲食，比如說，我們在不同年齡層……"],["高金委員素梅：我們吃豬肉吃很多啊，滷肉飯、水餃，全部都是。"],["姜署長至剛：對，的確，所以這個東西都重新算過了，所以算完之後，我們訂出一個標準，一直以來按照這個標準，我們在邊境裡面查察，如果是違規的，一定不會讓它來臺灣。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的科學，你所謂的科學是美國都接受的？"],["姜署長至剛：我覺得它是universal的，是全世界都會共同認為這是可以的。"],["高金委員素梅：錯了、錯了。你是食藥署，對吧？"],["姜署長至剛：是的，你好。"],["高金委員素梅：你知不知道歐盟是拒絕基改食品，它依據的是什麼，它依據的是卡塔赫納生物安全議定書，包括日本也用這個議定書來拒絕美國的基改食物，然後進入到校園，所以我今天為什麼要請五位上來，尤其是談判總代表處顏慧欣副總談判代表，你是行政院經貿談判辦公室，很重要，您認為你們要怎麼樣在談判的過程中捍衛、堅持臺灣人民的利益還有健康？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想，基本上我們跟美國的談判不是只談美豬、美牛議題……"],["高金委員素梅：還有什麼議題？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對等關稅的來源……"],["高金委員素梅：來！賴總統提出那5個策略再放一下。這個嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這5個議題……"],["高金委員素梅：跟這些都有關係嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對等關稅的來源確實就如川普政府自己宣布，背景是其他各國關稅太高，還有非關稅障礙、匯率問題，以及各國一些境內稅、貨物稅的問題，所以總結這些來說，美國希望各國看待自己國內是不是確實有這些美國所關切的現象來作為。"],["高金委員素梅：談判應該怎麼樣？知己知彼對吧？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["高金委員素梅：談判時最重要的是你是臺灣代表，對吧？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：沒錯。"],["高金委員素梅：臺灣的代表是不是應該代表2,300萬人民，站在第一線、捍衛我們的權益？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這是我們的責任。"],["高金委員素梅：好。如果這一次沒有辦法捍衛到人民的健康跟利益，你們該怎麼辦？如何向國人交代？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們一定據理力爭。"],["高金委員素梅：只有據理力爭嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：有任何條件，我想都需要朝野的共識，所以我們一定會來爭取。"],["高金委員素梅：我們絕對是同意的啊！我們絕對堅決站在你們的背後啊！"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：絕對是啊！但我現在要講的是萬一今天做不到我們說的捍衛人民利益跟健康，你們該怎麼辦？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想國人的健康不會是談判的籌碼，這一定是我們的基本立場，然後才討論其他議題。"],["高金委員素梅：好，你能不能像部長剛剛一樣，講得更清楚一點？當你們去談判……你們已經有視訊談判了嘛！對不對？因為在我的總質詢中，院長告訴我已經視訊談判了，近期馬上就會統整視訊談判當中所談到的問題，然後直接進入核心談判，對吧？所以你們已經有一個想法，也有談判要點跟籌碼了，對吧？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們現在正在統整各個相關議題的立場。"],["高金委員素梅：還在統整啊？還在統整？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為我們的談判團隊各有分工……"],["高金委員素梅：縱使已經有了一次所謂的視訊談判，你們還正在統整？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：視訊是交換、讓大家增進了解，我們也要確認美國實際上的需求。"],["高金委員素梅：那請問會談判幾次？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這完全是現在正在進行當中的議題。"],["高金委員素梅：幾次都不知道啊？有沒有在你們的規劃當中？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：這部分都在持續進行當中。"],["高金委員素梅：你認為你們準備充分了嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們是廣泛地蒐集各種情資，目的就是要讓臺灣的準備更充分。"],["高金委員素梅：今天除了我在這邊，全民都在看、全民都在等。召委特別安排了這一次委員會，讓你們來說明跟報告，就是因為全民都認為這是非常嚴重的事情，甚至是臺灣的國難，所以你們要秉持跟石破茂一樣的精神告訴美國，人民的健康、人民的利益是不容許被美國這樣踐踏的，可以嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：了解。"],["高金委員素梅：在這樣的基礎上談判，可以嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：了解，我們會據理力爭。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我們都在等、我們都在看。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接續請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5b29e73bed81681f418c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a6459bee0242884af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:39:17 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Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T12:39:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:52:05+08:00","duration":768,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.26909375,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.53846875,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.58471875,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.70659375,"end":25.714718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.891593750000002,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.46471875,"end":39.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.07534375,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.45721875,"end":61.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.67534375,"end":67.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.64471875000001,"end":69.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.11284375000001,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.69846875,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.32534375,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.70471875,"end":179.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.96534375000002,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.31534375,"end":193.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.99284375000002,"end":195.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.47284375,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.71721875,"end":202.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.88909375,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.47471875000002,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.60971875,"end":211.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.23409375,"end":213.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.92971875,"end":223.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.75659375,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.90784375,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.97471875000002,"end":252.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.31409375000004,"end":286.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.98034375000003,"end":273.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.53471875,"end":297.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.73971875,"end":302.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.51096875,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.14784375,"end":317.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.46659375,"end":319.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.94721875000005,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.96221875000003,"end":333.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.28284375000004,"end":333.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.68346875000003,"end":333.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.86909375000005,"end":341.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.74221875,"end":337.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.97784375000003,"end":353.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.58096875,"end":343.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.37346875000003,"end":347.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.91721875,"end":356.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.79784375,"end":359.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.88221875000005,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.94096875,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.02534375000005,"end":368.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.14346875,"end":361.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.65784375000004,"end":374.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.90096875,"end":377.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.64284375,"end":377.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.67659375000005,"end":377.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.96346875,"end":381.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.42284375,"end":383.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.03034375000004,"end":383.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.12284375,"end":384.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.52784375000005,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.81034375,"end":400.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.99596875000003,"end":388.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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你前面把他放出 把他丟出去造成人家的困擾啊我們是通知出去我們是通知出去請他來跟政府機關說明清楚就這樣而已將心比心啊 你如果是二代還是被輸給的孩子啊你是二代 你明明就在大陸就沒有戶籍啊我知道 我也有私財你收到這張 你收到這一張這是政府造成人家的困擾欸所以你昨天道歉嘛 對不對你昨天講的就是不變的部分嘛不變的部分並不是表示要違法嘛"},{"start":357.793,"end":368.2,"text":"不變也要合法啊這件事情就是你造成了人民的不變嘛對不對 而且是一個合法的我不是要做黑人啦你上次就嫌什麼部長你上次嫌什麼不變因為不變所造成的困擾但是並不是表示我們違法啊我們還是合法啊上面也說不變會困擾他就沒東西你怎麼可以寄給人家不是 所以他要到我們移民署來拒絕嘛說就沒這個理由他就沒有 為什麼要去拒絕"},{"start":385.091,"end":399.538,"text":"欸保定我本來就沒有大陸的戶籍你突然寄了個通知我還要因為你自己沒有親過一次然後因為你道歉完之後你補破網我跟他講說你不用回大陸去你現在叫你要去拒絕喔"},{"start":400.698,"end":404.039,"text":"報告我們有清過一次但是這是電子檔我們希望除了電子檔以外包括目前還有一個團體叫做中華民國大陸災包救濟總會他所提供一些比較舊的資料那我們也在清查當中"},{"start":418.883,"end":447.58,"text":"那我剛剛講過對於不變所造成的困擾我們確實需要改進所以我昨天也趕快請我們移民署看有沒有什麼改進的方案讓大家能夠知道說這件事是為了保障他在台灣合法的公民的一個權益這是我們應該做的你道歉只道歉了一半耶這件事情一開始就是你要寄出去之前你就跟移民署跟陸委會你要先簽過說你要寄出去這個人到底有沒有大陸的戶籍嘛"},{"start":448.28,"end":455.688,"text":"你沒有做這個事情 所以你才需要道歉啊啊現在已經出去了你要趕快記 所以我說你一個禮拜內你要清清楚 要嘛一通電話要嘛你要補記一個喊去跟他講說 欸 抱歉我打擾你了 我弄錯了 是不是我剛剛說將心比心啊 如果是你的話"},{"start":466.252,"end":480.318,"text":"你明明就沒有大陸戶籍我說如果是你或者是我被你這樣接到一個搞不好我剛講第一個那你要趕快去補正啊就說我之前是我政府的叔父啊第二可能更嚴重欸你4月2號就寄出去啊有些人已經回到大陸去啊這要不要國賠"},{"start":488.514,"end":499.419,"text":"要國賠嗎我一年沒貸沒錢你叫我去大陸把戶籍移除掉我從來都沒有啊我回大陸又碰了一批紙灰又回來我可以要求國賠嗎報告委員如果有這個個案的話麻煩請給我們來參考好嗎有齁"},{"start":504.341,"end":514.85,"text":"如果有這樣的個案是可以要求國賠嗎不是 請給我們來參考一下我們看如何來補救或是補正好嗎跟國賠不一定完全關係我昨天已經跟您說過了不變 並不是表示一定要違法不變 但是也要合法所以部長 第一個 你道歉然後你說要不要國賠這個有個案你今天檢討嘛現在最大的問題還是在第二部分是不是我們國賠請求失效的部分是需要法律來認證不是我們兩個說了就算否定 否定沒有沒有 你第二部分還是沒有 第二部分"},{"start":533.953,"end":547.463,"text":"我剛剛一直在強調的 你明明應該是你清查過說我沒有大陸戶籍有的話你才叫我去出籍嘛 對不對你在造成人民這個困擾 你現在都不用去 你說道歉之外你不用去通知對方一下嗎這是無望之災 而且是政府造成的擾民啊 不是有沒有 這是不是造成擾民 到底在道歉什麼啦我說第二項你到底做不做"},{"start":559.468,"end":563.317,"text":"如果一成為就說這個是要做的啊他們說一個禮拜內要去通知啊 但不給我們討論"},{"start":568.86,"end":591.972,"text":"所以你的意思是你不去補給這個函去更正嗎我已經跟你回覆過了如果造成不便的地方那我們在服務上面我們會做修正但是無論他是用什麼樣的角度來看他就是要合法我們是為了保障他在中華民國這個自由地區裡面的合法的公民的權益他合乎你規定你叫他去除籍除大陸籍"},{"start":593.573,"end":601.399,"text":"除籍跟拒絕中間就是有一個緩衝的角度你不要把拒絕跟除籍兩件事情合在一起完全不一樣啦你一直在講合法啊他就沒有你叫人家去通知人家可能已經跑回去大陸了或者是現在受到這個困擾你是不是應該去補正要更正你不用更正嗎要不要更正沒有你給我一句話你意思是不更正啊"},{"start":619.909,"end":630.864,"text":"跟委員解釋過了無論怎麼樣有造成不方便的地方需要去說明我們會去說明但是無論怎麼樣我們是要保障它在台灣是合法那更何況以前的這些以前的這些我們有部分"},{"start":635.51,"end":648.42,"text":"報告委員行政程序上他這樣子的不管是戶籍也好或者是什麼樣子的證件他理論上都是要到海基會有公證認證之後我們才能確定把它算成是真正的公文書這樣的過程當中確實是不方便"},{"start":651.462,"end":671.212,"text":"但是我們因為不方便我們也提出這樣子最後的服務方式就是說去跟新住民的權益委員會一起合作再跟他們說明清楚那這一點我們能夠做的盡量做可是我還是跟委員講第一個在兩岸人民關係條例的一個規範之下我們是希望他已經朝著合法合規的方式來處理柏定你造成你找民然後錯誤污辱造成人民的困擾"},{"start":680.709,"end":701.943,"text":"對啊 所以你現在只是說你我是說我要求是說你再補一個喊去跟人家道歉說你沒有這個問題對不對你說你要另外一個方式喔用說明會的方式喔那天人家有空可以去聽你說明嗎你自己的一個喊造成人家的困擾啊政府不就是要服務人民嗎你們去辦演講好像不是老闆老闆被你們被你們寄到一個不死不蕩的一個通知函"},{"start":711.209,"end":712.491,"text":"那你們不用更正喔這怎麼會按照規定嘿嘿"},{"start":730.395,"end":744.741,"text":"好 OK 那我們沒關係 我昨天問過一次了今天問了 那今天有一些進度嘛 對不對不只是道歉 你也做了一部分抓去公開說明嘛那現在可能卡住了一個很重要的點連陸委會主委都認為說應該去補正這個 要去更正了你現在不記 沒關係 我們進一步再來討論今天是第二集嘛 對 這是連續劇我們幫陸配跟幫這些子女我們一定要幫他爭取他該有的權利嘛而且是政府自己堵直自己施指大烏龍當然你要去補正 沒關係 我們第三集我們再繼續"},{"start":758.627,"end":759.289,"text":"謝謝張綺凱委員請相關的機關因為這件事情確實也蠻嚴重的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":908,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時39分）部長，昨天時間有限，我們繼續幫忙陸配。"],["主席：部長，有請。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們繼續昨天的討論，幫陸配還有他的子女解決問題。部長，陸委會承認移民署針對一些沒有在大陸設籍的陸配小孩寄了通知單，要求回大陸除籍，你昨天也道歉了嘛！而現在我們要再補破網，幫他們解決問題啦！現在到底要怎麼解決這個問題？不只是道歉而已，至少有3件事要做，除了道歉，是不是應該補一個函，跟他們講你們之前寄錯了，甚至必要的話，如果人家已經回大陸去了，那應該國賠啊！是不是最少要開始做第二項？你昨天道歉了啊！那是不是應該先寄個函跟他們講你們之前寄錯了，通知他們一下？"],["劉部長世芳：張委員，我昨天也跟您解釋過，是以單一案例解釋。我特別提到，因為這些人在大陸出生，那麼他們在大陸出生當時有沒有其他證件是我們不知道的，他自己、本人可能不知道，因為如我昨天或前幾天所提到的，可能由他的父母代為申請他的證件，所以移民署在通發出去的時候，要求他們就這方面提出他們的說法，針對這些說法，我昨天也特別到移民署聽移民署的簡報。根據簡報，在北、中、南一共6個移民署服務站，第一，現在進線的電話少很多，對於我們提出6+2這樣的態樣，大部分都了解。還有人用email方式或打電話過來問，我們都一一解釋清楚。","再來，委員提到對於一些來臺灣比較久、已經取得臺灣身分證的中配或陸配，是不是要再跟他們說明清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：93年3月1日以前。"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是我們可能會透過新住民協會的方式說明，也就是說到他們的家向他們說明。雖然沒有辦法一個一個說明，但是我們可以去他們比較常生活的區域，譬如說您昨天提的案例是在北三都，我就不特別說明是哪個地方，但我大概知道是哪一個地方。對於北三都有比較多中配居住的地方，移民署或其他中配福利權益團體會去跟他們說明清楚6+3的樣態是怎麼回事。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你要留點時間給我。很好，主動說明這點是對的，而且如果要根本解決問題，其實要如同我昨天提的，就是修法讓93年3月1日之前來臺定居者全部用具結……"],["劉部長世芳：但是目前……"],["張委員啓楷：沒關係，我希望你……"],["劉部長世芳：我也問過陸委會，到目前為止並沒有修法的需要。"],["張委員啓楷：有需要啊！民眾的反映、陳情就是這樣啊！而且是你們瀆職在前啊！"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我問過陸委會，對於93年以前的案例並沒有修法的需要。"],["張委員啓楷：你們瀆職21年，現在卻甩鍋，要陸配回大陸拿……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有甩鍋，應該說我們要加以清除，比較清楚一點。"],["張委員啓楷：但這是21年前沒做的啊！所以在法律上應該就是……政府存在的目的是服務人民嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那你不要製造成擾民啊！部長，你要服務人民……"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是因應這樣的不便，我們已經跟委員解釋過，就是希望能夠到他們比較多人聚集的地方，向年老的媽媽或年輕但行動不方便的人說清楚是怎麼回事，如果真的是在法律上需要或樣態需要修正的話，我們可以根據這些資料修正。但是我昨天已經跟你報告過，從21日開始受理申請到現在，我們其實已經累積好幾百份意見，詢問的電話甚至一千多通，所以合乎大致上都能了解的程度。如果在我們匯集這些資料時還有對民眾不方便的地方，我們可以再檢討，但是這樣的檢討並未涉及陸委會的修法。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在提的方法就是把6類排除嘛！但我一直在跟你講……"],["劉部長世芳：是6加3。"],["張委員啓楷：把這6類排除沒辦法解決絕大部分人的困難，所以民眾黨會提出一項修法，就用時間點來劃分，只要民國93年3月1日之前來臺定居者全部用具結處理。第二，在此之後的就授權由陸委會跟內政部制定到底要怎麼把6大類再擴大。沒關係，我們會提案修法。","現在我們提的是另一個。我也肯定你們說要辦說明會，你們願意辦，這是很好的，可是我剛才點的是你舉了一個例子，說有人是媽媽特別幫他辦了大陸戶籍，但這只是一個個案啊！現在很多人根本是出生就沒有辦、一直到現在都沒辦，結果你們的移民署就變成擾民了。你們應該先釐清楚、先查過嘛！對不對？政府要先查過，如果確認民眾在大陸確實有戶籍，才能叫他去除籍嘛！結果不是，你們先把函丟出去，造成人家的困擾啊！這是烏龍啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我們是通知出去，請他來跟政府機關說明清楚，就這樣而已。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，將心比心啦！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道、我都了解。"],["張委員啓楷：如果你是那個陸配的孩子、你是二代，在大陸明明沒有戶籍啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道、我也有認識……"],["張委員啓楷：那收到這一張就是政府造成人家的困擾欸！你昨天道歉了嘛！但是道歉完還要補破網。"],["劉部長世芳：我們昨天講了，這就是不便的部分嘛！但面對不便的部分並不表示要違法嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：不是違法……"],["劉部長世芳：不便也要合法嘛！在公務系統的……"],["張委員啓楷：這件事情就是你造成了人民的不便嘛！而且是一個錯誤嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，沒人想當壞人啦！但是……"],["張委員啓楷：那你昨天道歉什麼？部長，你昨天為什麼道歉？"],["劉部長世芳：是因為不便所造成的困擾，但並不表示我們違法啊！我們還是合法。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼叫做不便跟困擾？明明是沒有的東西，怎麼可以寄通知給人家？"],["劉部長世芳：所以他要到我們移民署來具結，表明沒有這個東西。"],["張委員啓楷：他就沒有，為什麼要去具結？"],["劉部長世芳：不是啦！具結不是表示有……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，假設我本來就沒有大陸戶籍，你卻突然寄了個通知，而且你沒有自己清過一次，道歉完又不補破網，跟人家講不用回大陸，竟然還叫人家去具結喔？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們有清過一次，但是就是電子檔。我們是希望除了針對電子檔以外，目前針對一個團體：中華民國大陸災胞救濟總會所提供比較舊的資料，我們也在清查當中。我剛剛講過，對於不便所造成的困擾，我們確實需要改進，所以我昨天也趕快請移民署研究有什麼改進方案，能夠讓大家知道這件事是為了保障他在臺灣合法的公民權益，這是我們應該做的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你道歉只道歉了一半欸！這件事情一開始，就是你們寄通知出去之前要先由移民署與陸委會清過，確認這個人到底有沒有大陸戶籍嘛！但你沒有做這件事，所以才須要道歉啊！現在已經寄出去了，就要趕快……所以我要求你1個禮拜內釐清楚，要嘛一通電話，要嘛就補寄一個函，跟他說「不好意思，我打擾你了」、「我弄錯了」，是不是？如我剛剛說的將心比心啊！如果是你的話，明明就沒有大陸戶籍……如果是你或者是我，接到這樣一個通知，搞不好就如我剛剛講的，所以你要趕快去補正啊！說明之前是我們政府的疏忽啊！這是第一個點。第二點可能更嚴重欸！你們4月2日就寄出，可能有些人已經回大陸去了啊！這個要不要國賠？要國賠嗎？你無緣無故叫我去大陸把戶籍移除掉，可是我從來都沒有啊！所以我回大陸之後又碰了一鼻子灰回來，我可以要求國賠嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如果有這個個案的話，麻煩請給我們參考好嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：有喔？如果有這樣的個案可以要求國賠嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：不是，請給我們參考一下，我們看看如何補救或是補正，好嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：你要慎重考慮，因為都造成人民權利受損了。"],["劉部長世芳：跟國賠不一定有完全的關係，我昨天已經跟您說過了，不便並不表示一定違法，雖然有所不便，但是也要合法。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，第一，你已經道歉，然後對於要不要國賠，如果有個案，你會進行檢討。最大的問題還是在第二部分啦！"],["劉部長世芳：是不是涉及國賠請求時效需要法律認證，不是我們兩個說了就算。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我剛剛一直強調，明明應該是你清查過我有沒有大陸戶籍，有的話才要叫我去除籍，對不對？你現在造成人民的困擾，除了道歉之外，不用通知對方一下嗎？這是無妄之災，而且是政府造成的擾民不是嗎？有沒有？這是不是造成擾民？不然你到底道歉什麼啦？第二項你到底做不做？陸委會主委就說這是要做的啊！他們說應該1個禮拜內通知啊！難道沒有跟你們討論？"],["劉部長世芳：我已經回復過了……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你的意思是你不補寄函去更正嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我已經跟你回復過了，如果是造成不便的地方，我們在服務上會修正。但是無論從什麼樣的角度來看，就是要合法，我們是為了保障他在中華民國這個自由地區裡面的合法公民權益。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，他合法啊！他合乎你的規定。你叫他去除大陸籍，問題是他沒有啊！"],["劉部長世芳：不是，除籍跟具結中間就是有一個緩衝的角度……"],["張委員啓楷：他就沒有，是你出了一個通知叫他去做這件事情，你自己錯誤在先，不應該更正？"],["劉部長世芳：你不要把具結跟除籍兩件事情合在一起，完全不同啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你一直在講合法，但他就沒有做，而且在你通知人家以後，他可能已經跑回大陸了，或者現在受到這個困擾，你是不是應該補正、要更正？你不用更正嗎？要不要更正？你給我一句話，你的意思是不更正喔？"],["劉部長世芳：我不了解委員所問的問題。我跟委員解釋過了，若有造成不方便的地方、需要說明，我們會去說明，但是無論怎麼樣，我們都是要保障他在臺灣為合法。更何況以前這些……"],["張委員啓楷：他們本來在大陸出生時就沒有戶籍啊！你怎麼一直講這個合法？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，行政程序上，不管是戶籍也好或什麼樣的證件，理論上都要到海基會公證、認證之後，我們才能確定、算成真正的公文書，這樣的過程確實不方便，但是因為不方便，我們也提出最後的服務方式，就是跟新住民權益委員會合作，再跟他們說明清楚，我們能做的儘量做。可是我還是要跟委員講，第一就是在兩岸人民關係條例的規範之下，我們一定希望他朝著合法、合規的方式處理。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你擾民，因為錯誤、烏龍造成人民的困擾……"],["劉部長世芳：我講得很清楚啊！"],["張委員啓楷：我的要求是你再補一個函去跟人家道歉，說對方沒有這個問題，對不對？而你現在是說要用另外一個方式、用說明會的方式喔？那你怎麼知道對方要來聽？人家那天有空可以聽你說明嗎？你寄了一個函、造成人家的困擾，那政府不就是要服務人民嗎？你們辦演講，因為人民是頭家，但頭家被你們寄了一個不實、不當的通知函，你們不用更正喔？"],["劉部長世芳：我們都是按照規定辦理的，委員！"],["張委員啓楷：這怎麼是按照規定？"],["劉部長世芳：你一直問我，我還是一直重複，無法回應啊！"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK，沒有關係，我昨天問過一次了，今天再問，有了一些進度嘛！不只是道歉，你也做了一部分，就是要去公開說明。現在顯然卡住一個很重要的點，連陸委會主委都認為應該補正、要更正，你現在卻不寄。沒關係，我們再進一步討論，這是連續劇，今天是第二集，我們要幫陸配和這些子女爭取到該有的權利嘛！而且這是政府自己瀆職、失職的大烏龍，當然要去補正。沒關係，我們第三集再繼續。部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：看你們什麼時候要發更正函。"],["主席：請相關機關處理，因為這件事情確實也滿嚴重的，會後要積極溝通啦！這樣我們才不用花掉比較多會議時間。"],["張委員啓楷：這應該也可以全民公決啦！讓全民看看到底應不應該補發更正函。"],["主席：當然，還會有討論的機會，謝謝張啓楷委員。","下一位請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","下一位請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答到此結束。","丁學忠委員、高金素梅委員、邱鎮軍委員、黃建賓委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於1週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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剛剛看到我們4月21號有公布申請辦法關於出口供應鏈的880億後來又追加到930億我想知道說關於930億這個部分會到哪裡去"},{"start":77.099,"end":102.391,"text":"除了这个700个180亿刚才行政院院会有做讨论所以除了经济部原先的这个410亿以外我们还有50亿会来协助这个我们相关的厂商做设备的太阳刚看到就是说如果说本来是单月营收受影响是大概是15%以后才有申请资格吗"},{"start":102.891,"end":113.304,"text":"現在放寬到說一年內或是半年的營收可能影響到10%的時候也可以申請那我是覺得說以後有沒有更好的一些措施"},{"start":114.711,"end":132.818,"text":"這些話因為這些也是我們過去一直跟產業界在做溝通然後做了很多的產業之旅從院長副院長一直到部長都有這是也是去反映業者的他的需求所以我們才會把相關的這個標準給放寬很希望說881能夠透明"},{"start":135.639,"end":153.715,"text":"而不是又去做了一些我們覺得不適合的事情那我是覺得說這一步這邊能夠把這些880億或是後來的930億能夠很清楚的讓民眾知道說這個錢到哪裡去了謝謝 那有請外交部下頁市長"},{"start":159.238,"end":168.496,"text":"市長嗎我是貝雷斯副市長那我想說你一直把美國當作非常非常好的朋友可是我覺得他們對我們這樣子你覺得會不會難過啊"},{"start":173.202,"end":197.157,"text":"我們的台美關係其實是它有延續性的啦那這個不管是哪一個政黨過去這雙邊關係在過去10年來一直是有可能是不是我們賺他們的錢太多我看一下2017年的時候我們那時候的順差大概就是我們賺了他們大概84億美金那現在已經是649億美金也就是說多了7倍所以我們就被他們點名下一頁"},{"start":198.158,"end":213.406,"text":"他說我們是30-15喔30喔這個字眼如果就外交字眼來講是不是很難聽啊如果是佔了第六名那你覺得說他有攻擊性的言語的時候外交部有沒有做一些就是對我們國格的一些辯護啊"},{"start":215.408,"end":230.015,"text":"包委員這個其實主要是說他那基本上是依據這個貿易的貿易量貿易逆差那其實台灣過去去年的貿易逆差是特別高是因為美國他也是他的推動到高科技AI產業造成"},{"start":231.716,"end":256.168,"text":"我們一直把他當做很好的朋友可是他們用的字眼或什麼其實我們還是可以適當的反擊因為覺得說對我們作為一個小國可是是經濟大國我們非常驕傲我們非常對我們的這些經濟成就很像是我們國人的榮耀可是我們被放上去的時候他說dirty所以我覺得這個dirty的部分我覺得事實要做回應謝謝我請衛福部長下一位"},{"start":261.283,"end":281.403,"text":"其實我們的這些跟美國大部分都是跟資訊相關然後跟醫療比較沒有大的關係不過我剛看了就是我們在就是今天的主題就是牛肉跟豬肉的部分剛才也知道說其實豬肉很像沒有這樣很大的篇幅大概也不到10%那我想說再下一頁"},{"start":284.404,"end":309.944,"text":"我們一直在想說這個我們跟美國在談判這些我們的農產品的時候是不是這些我們的疑慮啊是不是都應該被保證不會改變希望部長這邊看看這幾個條件比如說基改食材啊農產品只要發芽了就要全部退貨可是他覺得這個應該要更改或者說我們的產地標示這個部分還有他一直在指引我們的這個我們的"},{"start":311.605,"end":330.222,"text":"檢驗紙太嚴格了 這個部分能不能一一回答一下好 師父我先請署長回答 再來補充好了就關於Codex參與標準 什麼更為放寬這個議題因為檢驗的這個部分是議題適用 是非常非常的精準的"},{"start":330.842,"end":355.583,"text":"所以檢驗的開發的時候他用的是他希望我們用WHO的標準嗎檢驗的開發呢其實在國內的食藥署的研檢組裡面也做完整的開發開發的過程中請問推估跟推算的過程呢是可以能夠做國際接軌所以我們有最重要的國際接軌比如說那個豬腎的部分說40ppm或ppp他希望能夠改成90就是將近一倍這個部分你覺得怎麼辦在當初"},{"start":357.785,"end":373.638,"text":"在朱盛的時候訂了40ppb的過程中其實做了非常充分的討論討論過程中其實強調的一點是我們國人的飲食設施上面的特殊性因此有這樣子的折衝之下我們跟國際上標準是有不一樣的"},{"start":374.298,"end":399.351,"text":"那我們其實會計算出相關的一些設施的安全的範圍我們每日的設施範圍是可以應該不會放寬吧我們會計算出那個精確所有的在標準是訂定的我們會以國際標準跟科學關係希望我們能夠更改我們的實驗的方法他甚至他的建議裡面就是在貿易障礙的報告書裡面他也希望說我們的實驗室的標準應該要跟他們一樣"},{"start":400.612,"end":414.05,"text":"應該說那個方法齁其實方法不同其實結果是一致的啦所以並不是說因為方法改了之後所以你要去說服美國說我們的方法是一樣的是一致的 這個一致的是如果讓他精準用A B方法其實都可以接受產地標示的部分呢"},{"start":415.599,"end":438.119,"text":"目前我們產地對豬肉來說明的話我們對國內任何的豬的來源其實是不管國內國外都是一體適用的做我們的一體的標示他的貿易障礙報告書裡面他就一再的在強調這個字就是說我們的leveling他覺得說台灣不應該有這個那你在談判的時候你要怎麼去說服他呢"},{"start":438.679,"end":462.257,"text":"我們針對這個議題裡面我們並不是針對美國的產品有這樣的歧視我們強調的是歧視一再都是我們國內是一體私用的你要說服他啊是不是對我們現在就好像我想要說服一下這個委員一樣我們是一體私用國內國外所有的豬肉的來源我們都會標示這個其實沒有歧視的意思我跳到最後一頁"},{"start":463.098,"end":470.631,"text":"那我想請問部長就是關於他就說他那個貿易災害的部分報告是最後一頁最後一頁"},{"start":473.953,"end":495.635,"text":"他藥品的部分他說我們缺乏透明度跟可預測性不過他說因為經過他們的努力看了這個第一段的告訴第二行他說2024年的1月其實因為他們的努力我們健保署有縮短了他的Pricing Approval Timeline也就是說"},{"start":497.113,"end":508.231,"text":"他們有努力所以我們台灣這邊就把申請的核可時間縮短那我的意思就是說他一再的要求我們就會達到他們要的目的嗎"},{"start":509.771,"end":529.199,"text":"我想不是這樣子我們那個任何的一個要求我們都會站在說它的合理性但最重要就是能不能說這樣的一個要求對我們國人的健康是一件好的事情關於醫療器材的部分部長還有他對那個自費的那個一些醫療器材他希望能夠放寬那你怎麼說你怎麼想"},{"start":539.312,"end":559.823,"text":"我們建智慧平台讓程序審查他希望有一個智慧代碼可是我們這個健保署是幫我們來說明我們已經建了一個智慧平台讓相關的廠商申請他民眾查詢資料的時候都能夠更資訊公開透明也方便行政審查所以我們要做一個保管的動作是正在做了對好謝謝好謝謝謝謝盧縣議委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1008,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（12時41分）主席，有請經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：代表好。4月11日你們有視訊會議，但我找相關資料都看不到到底談判了什麼，有沒有好消息？有沒有壞消息告訴大家？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，因為我們臺美談判基本上有互信的基礎，在談判過程有一些資訊還沒有到比較穩定的階段，所以都還在保密的狀態。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。有請經濟部江次長，次長好。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：我們4月21日有公布申請辦法，關於出口供應鏈的880億，後來又追加到930億，我想知道關於930億這個部分會到哪裡去？除了這個700億跟180億。"],["江次長文若：剛才行政院院會有做討論，除了經濟部原先的410億以外，我們還有50億會來協助相關的廠商做設備汰換。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我剛剛看到，本來是單月營收受影響15%才有申請資格，現在要放寬到一年內或者是半年的營收可能影響到10%的時候也可以申請，以後有沒有更好的一些措施？"],["江次長文若：因為我們過去一直與產業界在做溝通，然後做了很多的產業之旅，從院長、副院長一直到部長都有，這次也是去反映業者的需求，所以我們才會把相關的標準放寬。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們一直很希望880億能夠透明，而不是又去做一些不適合的事情啦！我覺得經濟部這邊針對880億或是後來的930億，要能夠很清楚地讓民眾知道錢到哪裡去了。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。有請外交部。"],["主席：司長。"],["盧委員縣一：司長嗎？"],["焦副司長國祐：報告委員，我是北美司副司長。"],["盧委員縣一：副司長，我們一直把美國當作非常非常好的朋友，可是他們對我們這樣子，你會不會覺得難過？"],["焦副司長國祐：報告委員，臺美關係其實是有延續性的，不管是哪一個政黨，雙邊關係在過去10年來，一直是不斷地增進……"],["盧委員縣一：是不是我們賺他們的錢太多了？如果看一下2017年那時候的順差，我們賺了他們大概84億美金，現在已經是649億美金，也就是多了7倍，所以我們就被他們點名，美國說我們是Dirty Fifteen哦！Dirty這個字眼，如果就外交字眼來講是不是很難聽？我們是占了第6名，當它有攻擊性言語的時候，外交部有沒有對我們的國格做一些辯護？"],["焦副司長國祐：報告委員，它那個基本上是依據貿易量、貿易逆差，其實臺灣去年的貿易逆差特別高是因為美國要推動高科技AI產業造成，那時候因為臺灣的……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是說，我們一直把美國當作很好的朋友，可是他們用的字眼或是什麼，其實我們還是可以適當地反擊，因為我們雖然作為一個小國，可是是經濟大國，我們非常驕傲，這些經濟成就很像是我們國人的榮耀，可是我們被放上去的時候，它是說Dirty，所以我覺得這個Dirty的部分要適時做回應。"],["焦副司長國祐：是。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。"],["焦副司長國祐：是，謝謝委員。"],["盧委員縣一：有請衛福部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：其實我們和美國大部分都是跟資訊相關，與醫療比較沒有大的關係，今天的主題是牛肉和豬肉的部分，剛才也知道其實豬肉好像沒有占很大的篇幅，大概不到10%。我們一直在想，我們與美國在談判這些農產品的時候，我們的這些疑慮是不是都應該被保證不會改變？請部長看看這幾個條件，比如說基改食材、農產品只要發芽就要全部退貨，可是它覺得這個應該要更改，或者是說我們的產地標示這個部分，還有它一直在質疑我們的檢驗值太嚴格了，這個部分能不能一一回答一下？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是先請署長回答，我再來補充？"],["盧委員縣一：好，OK。"],["姜署長至剛：關於Codex殘餘標準更為放寬這個議題，因為檢驗的部分是一體適用，是非常非常精準的，所以檢驗的開發的時候……"],["盧委員縣一：不是，它希望我們用WHO的標準嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：檢驗的開發，其實在國內食藥署的研檢組裡面也做完整的開發，開發的過程中，使用的推估跟推算的過程是能夠做國際接軌，所以我們有最重要的國際接軌。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，比如說豬腎的部分40ppm或ppb，它希望我們能夠改成90，也就是將近一倍，這個部分你覺得怎麼辦？"],["姜署長至剛：當初在豬腎訂了40ppb的過程中，其實做了非常非常充分的討論，那討論的過程中，其實強調的一點是我們國人的飲食，攝食上面的特殊性……"],["盧委員縣一：我知道。"],["姜署長至剛：因此，有這樣子的折衝之下，我們跟國際上的標準是有不一樣的，我們其實會計算出相關的攝食安全範圍，每日的攝食範圍是可以……"],["盧委員縣一：好，我的意思是說，你應該不會放寬吧？"],["姜署長至剛：我們會計算出那個精確，在標準是訂定了，我們會以國際標準和科學分析……"],["盧委員縣一：它希望我們能夠更改實驗方法，甚至它的建議裡面，在貿易障礙的報告書裡面，它也希望我們的實驗室標準應該要跟他們一樣。"],["姜署長至剛：應該說只是方法不同，其實結果是一致的，所以並不是方法改了之後就會變。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你要去說服美國說我們的方式是一樣的？"],["姜署長至剛：是一致的，這個一致是如何讓它精準，用A、B方法其實都可以接受。"],["盧委員縣一：好，那產地標示的部分呢？"],["姜署長至剛：目前我們的產地，以豬肉來說明的話，我們對於國內任何豬的來源，其實不管國內國外都是一體適用，做我們一體的標示。"],["盧委員縣一：在貿易障礙報告書裡面，它一再地強調這個字，就是說我們的labeling，它覺得臺灣不應該有這個，那你在談判的時候要怎麼去說服它呢？"],["姜署長至剛：不是，針對這個議題，我們並不是針對美國的產品有歧視，我們一再強調的是，我們國內都是一體適用的。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我的意思是說，你要說服它啊！是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：對，就好像我想要說服一下委員一樣，我們是一體適用，國內國外所有的豬肉來源都會標示，這個其實沒有歧視的意思。"],["盧委員縣一：好，因為時間的關係，我跳到最後一頁。我想請問部長，關於那個貿易障礙報告，在藥品的部分，它說我們缺乏透明度跟可預測性，不過因為經過他們的努力，請看第一段倒數第2行，它說2024年1月，因為他們的努力，我們健保署有縮短了它的pricing approval timelines，也就是說他們有努力，所以臺灣這邊就把申請的核可時間縮短，我的意思是說，美國一再地要求，我們就會達到他們要的目的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想不是這樣子，任何的要求我們都會站在它的合理性，最重要就是這樣的一個要求，對我們國人的健康是一件好的事情……"],["盧委員縣一：OK，關於醫療器材的部分，部長最後……"],["邱部長泰源：那我們就把整個制度弄得更有效率嘛！"],["盧委員縣一：還有它對自費的一些醫療器材希望能夠放寬，那你怎麼說？你怎麼想？它希望有一個自費代碼，可是我們可能……"],["邱部長泰源：這個請健保署來說明。"],["龐副署長一鳴：我們來說明，我們已經建了一個自費平臺，讓相關的廠商申請，民眾查詢資料的時候，資訊都能夠更公開透明，也方便行政審查。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你們要做嚴格把關的動作囉？"],["龐副署長一鳴：是，正在做了。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5a12bc07aeb0ef72418c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a9e5184f6a42873d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:31:08 - 12:39:04","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T12:31:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:39:04+08:00","duration":476,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.34596875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.36221875,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.16409375,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.79409375,"end":79.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.64721875000001,"end":93.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.51846875000001,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.34534375000001,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.32784375,"end":137.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.25846875000002,"end":148.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.59846875000002,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.12221875,"end":215.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.35159375,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.37096875,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.54784375000003,"end":234.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.01534375000003,"end":238.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.84159375000002,"end":243.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.92596875,"end":240.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.36409375000002,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.41034375,"end":250.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.36346875,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.57409375,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.55221875,"end":257.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.84284375000004,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.65596875,"end":271.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.66784375000003,"end":273.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.45659375,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.70909375,"end":282.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.67034375000003,"end":286.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.66971875,"end":289.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.96034375,"end":296.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.57096875,"end":306.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.78471875,"end":308.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.18096875000003,"end":325.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.05596875000003,"end":339.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.58534375000005,"end":341.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.64846875,"end":343.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.70721875000004,"end":345.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.51284375,"end":350.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.55409375000005,"end":382.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.24534375,"end":384.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.52784375000005,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.18596875000003,"end":387.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.27409375,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.65721875,"end":397.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.84221875000003,"end":400.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.49159375000005,"end":404.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.06471875000005,"end":407.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.54534375000003,"end":415.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.52721875000003,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.93596875000003,"end":421.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.51346875,"end":435.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.87846875,"end":471.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.71659375,"end":474.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.84284375000004,"end":476.69909375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.472,"end":9.974,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們劉部長劉部長有請部長今天大家主要討論聚焦在住宅法那分黨派的委員不管是放寬入住的資格提高經濟弱勢的比例或者提高這個房租的扣除額基本上都"},{"start":29.302,"end":56.201,"text":"圍繞在就是特別是在社宅的部分或者你在整個的租金補貼可不可以擴大加惠更多的需要房子的民眾但是我必須講我們這個社宅的推動從蔡政府時代到現在的賴政府時代都有喊出比如蔡政府時代喊出了是8年20萬戶而賴政府時代喊出來是百萬戶的這個租屋家庭的支持計劃"},{"start":58.022,"end":79.145,"text":"这里面大家都知道我们的涉宅的进度极为缓慢所以也都用了包租贷款或者住金补贴的方式去做替代但是即使如此我们真正的涉宅的目标其实已经不但是牛部化而且是龟部化了"},{"start":79.685,"end":96.723,"text":"因为如果按照蔡政府时代的8年20万户里面包含新建12万户的社会住宅然后在赖政府是预计呢要直接的新建社会住宅也有25万户所以加起来呢是37万户37万户"},{"start":98.385,"end":124.201,"text":"好可是根据我们内政部自己不动产资讯平台现在所显示的资料全国的社会住宅完工户数当然还有一些规划的或者在新建中完工户数其实只有三万户只有三万户也就是说不管是之前前朝蔡英文政府或者现在的赖政府你们的"},{"start":125.001,"end":151.855,"text":"直接興建社宅的目標37萬戶裡面真正完工可以提供給民眾來入住的只有3萬戶所以真的我覺得大社宅大謊言所以我們如何去加強加速我們社宅的興建是非常非常重要的另外呢我們講到就是租金補貼的部分來"},{"start":153.616,"end":170.079,"text":"我們其實我們政府當然希望減少大家民眾的租金的負擔提出了這個房屋租金補貼計劃可是可以看到在都會區七大都會區裡面的租金的漲幅"},{"start":170.68,"end":186.455,"text":"事实上远远高于我们的平均薪资的涨幅所以如果你看台北市可能还比较顿化可是新北桃园新竹都在10%以上如果你看新竹县它的涨幅是两成以上"},{"start":187.216,"end":214.491,"text":"所以也就是說民眾的薪資他事實上他的漲幅是沒有辦法跟上真正都會區的房租的漲幅好我在這邊呢我要提醒內政部就是中研院金研所金研所在去年底他發布了一個就是台灣消費者預期與政策反應調查很重要他是跟政策相關的"},{"start":216.397,"end":237.513,"text":"的結果是說受訪房東有24.3%近三年有漲租金的已經漲租金或者準備漲租金所以也就是說在房東裡面將近有四分之一他們都是準備要漲房租的那這個計劃時間暫停一下你們要討論的話應該是事後"},{"start":245.475,"end":248.618,"text":"我知道我現在因為你們這樣你們就沒辦法聽我講我要跟那個跟部長還有我們署長說這個中研院調查非常特殊"},{"start":259.491,"end":282.085,"text":"我们的租金补贴计划也就是政府的租金补贴计划放进去做调查他特别说他特别放进去做调查他来了解一下我们的政策跟实际会不会影响房东要不要涨租金跟实际房租有没有调涨有没有关联性"},{"start":283.365,"end":308.197,"text":"他特别把这个政策放进去做调查而最后出来的结果是这个房东方面我刚刚讲有24.3%他会这三年他会调涨租金其中竟然有19.7的受访者说为什么他要涨租金呢因为他认为政府有补助房租"},{"start":309.249,"end":323.468,"text":"政府有補助房租所以我覺得今天會出現一個困境那個困境是什麼呢政府去補助房租是因為要減輕我們民眾租房子的負擔對不對這應該是一個德政"},{"start":326.152,"end":350.615,"text":"可是没有想到到了市场竟然变成房东认为说他一定先问你你有没有接受政府的补助啊他说我可以你会不会去申请啊我会去申请他因此反而把这个部分调涨租金了他反而反映在我刚才讲市场所呈现的租金反而调涨"},{"start":352.036,"end":357.259,"text":"租金反而調漲那可能這邊大概19.7%我們說20%好了他可能這20%還帶動了其他我隔壁漲那我們房東一樣賣房子租房都一定是這樣嘛我一定會調查一下我旁邊的房子賣多少錢租多少錢可能因為這個理由反而帶動了租金上漲也就是說我原來是得證結果沒想到"},{"start":378.649,"end":406.971,"text":"它竟然成為推升租金上漲的一個原因了所以我覺得這部分要特別注意到因為我想中研院 經驗所他們也不是阿里布達的什麼單位而且他特別去把這個項目把它放進調查他也希望知道我們的政府政策有沒有反而到了市場反而變成一個反效果"},{"start":407.671,"end":434.813,"text":"所以我覺得這點是我們可能要特別去理解特別注意的我沒有說我們提供房屋租金不好我們也希望能夠去解決民眾的負擔但是如果他反而變成一些我也不能說是貪心的房東啦很多這個房東他都會他能收多他就要盡量收多嘛居州反而他認為說我要租 張旗開來跟我租房子張旗開"},{"start":435.954,"end":450.516,"text":"你有沒有符合規定他說有那你要不要去生意反正那些錢是政府幫你出的嘛我就把租金提高一些說反正不是你付的所以我覺得要特別小心這樣的效應好不好"},{"start":451.798,"end":470.251,"text":"好所以我才講說請你們能夠仔細聽一下我不是在講我是說希望你們回去針對中研院經濟所他們的這個調查政策反映到市場實際的租金的影響能夠特別去了解一下好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":895,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時31分）謝謝主席，我請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，大家今天的討論主要聚焦在住宅法，不分黨派委員不論訴求放寬入住資格、提高經濟弱勢比例或者是提高房租扣除額，基本上都特別圍繞在社宅部分或者租金補貼可不可以擴大、嘉惠更多需要房子的民眾。我必須講，社宅的推動從蔡政府時代到現在的賴政府時代都有喊出目標，比如說蔡政府時代喊出的是8年20萬戶，賴政府時代喊出來的是百萬戶租屋家庭的支持計畫，但是大家也都知道我國社宅的進度極為緩慢，雖然也都用了包租代管或租金補貼的方式替代，但是即使如此，真正的社宅目標其實不但牛步化，而且已經是龜步化了。因為按照蔡政府時代的8年20萬戶規劃，裡面包含興建12萬戶社會住宅，然後賴政府預計直接興建社會住宅25萬戶，所以加起來是37萬戶。可是根據內政部自己的不動產資訊平台現在所顯示的資料，當然還有一些在規劃的或在興建中，其實全國社會住宅完工戶數只有3萬戶！只有3萬戶。也就是說，不管是前朝的蔡英文政府或是現在的賴政府，在你們直接興建社宅目標的37萬戶裡面，真正完工、可以提供民眾入住的只有3萬戶，我覺得這真的是「大社宅大謊言」，所以如何加強、加速社宅興建是非常、非常重要的。","另外我要講的就是租金補貼的部分。其實我們的政府當然是因為希望減少民眾的租金負擔，提出房屋租金補貼計畫，可是我們可以看到，事實上七大都會區裡面的租金漲幅遠遠高於平均薪資的漲幅。你看，臺北市可能還比較鈍化，可是新北、桃園、新竹漲幅都在10%以上，如果看新竹縣，漲幅是兩成以上，也就是說，民眾的薪資漲幅事實上沒有辦法跟上都會區真正的房租漲幅。我要提醒內政部，中研院經研所在去年底發布了「臺灣消費者預期與政策反應調查」，很重要喔！它是跟政策相關的。調查結果是受訪房東有24.3%在近三年已經漲租金或者準備漲租金，也就是說，房東裡有將近1/4都是準備要漲房租的。這個計畫……時間暫停一下。"],["主席：時間暫停！"],["王委員鴻薇：你們要討論的話應該在事後。"],["劉部長世芳：我們是在討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，但你們這樣就沒辦法聽我講嘛！"],["主席：對啊！委員在質詢啦！所以要注意一下，好不好？"],["王委員鴻薇：我要跟部長還有署長說，這項中研院調查非常特殊，把我們的租金補貼計畫、也就是政府的租金補貼計畫放進去做調查，還提及之所以特別放進去做調查，是要了解政策實際上會不會影響房東要不要漲租金以及政策與房租實際上是否調漲有沒有關聯性。中研院特別把這個政策放進去做調查，而最後出來的結果是房東方面如我剛剛講的，有24.3%表示這三年會調漲租金，其中竟然還有19.7%受訪者說為什麼要漲租金？是因為他認為政府有補助房租。所以我覺得今天會出現一個困境，那個困境是什麼呢？政府補助房租是因為要減輕民眾租房子的負擔，對不對？這應該是一個德政。可是沒有想到，到了市場，竟然演變成房東一定會先問房客有沒有接受政府的補助，如果房客說「我可以」，房東又問「你會不會去申請啊？」房客回答「我會去申請」，好！房東因為這樣調漲租金了，反映了我剛才講的，市場所呈現的是租金反而調漲。這邊大概有19.7%，我就講20%好了，這20%可能還帶動其他房東，例如隔壁漲了，而房東都一樣，賣房子跟租房子都一定是這樣嘛！民眾一定會調查一下旁邊的房子賣多少錢、租多少錢，可能就因為這個理由，反而帶動了租金上漲。也就是說，原來是德政，沒想到竟然成為推升租金上漲的原因之一了，所以我覺得這部分要特別注意。","我想中研院經研所不是什麼「阿里不達」的單位，而且它特別把這個項目放進調查，也是希望知道我們的政府政策到了市場是否收到反效果，所以我覺得這一點可能是我們要特別理解、特別注意的。我沒有說提供房屋租金補助不好，我也希望能夠解決民眾的負擔，但是如果反而變成一些……我也不能說是貪心的房東啦！但很多房東都是能收多就要儘量收多嘛！像張啓楷來跟我租房子，就問張啓楷「你有沒有符合規定？」如果他說有，再問「你要不要去申請？」他又說「要」，那麼反正那些錢是政府幫他出的嘛！房東就可以把租金提高一些，說「反正不是你付的」，我覺得要特別小心這樣的效應，好不好？所以我才請你們仔細聽，希望你們回去能夠針對中研院經濟所這項調查所顯示政策反映到市場對實際租金的影響特別了解一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","下一位請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","下一位請林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員不在。","請羅智強委員、羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160670","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160670","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5af912bdcd782c5b018c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a729861a5771213c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:23:55 - 12:31:01","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T12:23:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:31:01+08:00","duration":426,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":5.127218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.16909375,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.548468750000001,"end":94.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.05409375,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.84159375000002,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.93096875000003,"end":288.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.94784375,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.96471875000003,"end":289.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.25159375000004,"end":289.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.31909375000004,"end":289.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.33596875,"end":304.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.94534375,"end":317.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.07909375,"end":313.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.28159375,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.29846875000004,"end":313.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.83784375000005,"end":345.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.34409375,"end":345.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.96846875,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.49534375,"end":368.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.85784375000003,"end":352.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.16159375,"end":352.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.26659375,"end":355.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.89096875,"end":356.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.46846875,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.30721875,"end":365.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.91034375000004,"end":371.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.77471875000003,"end":398.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.96346875,"end":378.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.83784375000005,"end":404.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.28909375,"end":400.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.28034375000004,"end":402.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.64721875000004,"end":419.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.20596875,"end":419.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.71221875000003,"end":422.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.18846875,"end":424.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.97721875,"end":426.39471875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.08,"end":5.081,"text":"謝謝趙偉有請部長劉部長有請部長吳安辛苦了最近要面對很多在我聽起來很不專業的質詢我想我今天是想要為青年特別是學生請命我是有看你們今天的報告在修法上的"},{"start":26.412,"end":51.349,"text":"那看起來好像內政部覺得不需要把青年的部分放在裡頭因為有各種的部分那我今天只想說不管修法的不管這次修法你們要不要納入青年那有些事情其實是不用修法現在就可以做的那希望就是內政部可以去研議那第一個其實我們的住宅法第一條講的全體國民那當然這包含學生嘛"},{"start":51.849,"end":68.506,"text":"只是學生他的問題就是他可能不是經濟社會的弱勢但他有可能因為離鄉就學本身還沒有穩定的收入變成在外的一個結構性的弱勢譬如說他如果在台北市跟在花蓮"},{"start":69.207,"end":94.023,"text":"那租金各方面面对到的条件都不一样所以我说他可能是阶段性的结构上的弱势那这边其实监察院的报告可以跟让部长知道一下他也表达说其实目前大概有14%的学生想住宿舍就完全住不到那而且呢这个14%是全国来看如果看都会的话更严重"},{"start":95.12,"end":118.028,"text":"根据教育部给我的资料供给率倒数15名的学校有8所学校在双北我想这个部分部长应该很了解这个是都会特有的议题所以监察院讲了14%想住应该可以住的住不到的其实不成比例的是分布在双北有8所学校部分"},{"start":118.848,"end":141.041,"text":"当然就是在你们今天的报告中说其实如果是自己住在外面的话你们有租金补贴可是我们以双倍为例大家都知道双倍的租金越来越高平均一个学生可能每个月要花7000到1万次根据现在租金补贴单身倍率1.2每个月其实只能申请到3600"},{"start":142.322,"end":157.903,"text":"甚至還有一些不肖房東因為有這個補助他還漲了房租所以就一個在雙北的學生每個月即使得到你們的補助還是要負擔從三千五到一萬不等看他學校的黃金位置"},{"start":158.524,"end":183.756,"text":"当然你们说他如果是中低收入或等等可以申请社宅可是我们刚讲的社宅在社就法目前还是以家庭为单位可能他家里基本上还没有到中低收入或者是弱势生长等但他本人在经济上方面可能就需要打工那我自己曾经在私立大学兼课就知道学生打工的情况非常的严重"},{"start":184.436,"end":211.758,"text":"因為在台北市的生活費很高所以我今天是希望這是一個機會我們來做雖然修法上你們認為本席的版本的青年不用納入我今天是想訴求就是說部長可以做一些還不需要修法就做的第一個內政部應該跟教育部共同了解住宿供給率跟品質主動輔導學校來申請相關的計劃甚至提高補助那第二個"},{"start":213.139,"end":232.219,"text":"租屋的部分也可以擴大包租代管的民間住宅鼓勵他轉租給學生那納入就是學生相關的經驗在制定相關的政策第三個既有的社宅如果是在雙北地區或者是某些地方那我知道有一定的弱勢比例那在可能的範圍內因為每個區情況不同"},{"start":234.261,"end":250.738,"text":"是不是有可能能够专案跟学校合作转租给学生我知道这些都不容易今天教育部有高教师赖专委在这教育部这边我也在push他们他们基本上也承诺往你们这个方向移动"},{"start":251.358,"end":267.946,"text":"可是跨部會的合作難度很高我很高興在你們今天的結論中有講到涉及學生原住民等社會福利事項本部會積極與教育部等部會溝通所以部長是不是可以承諾我近期之內"},{"start":268.666,"end":285.447,"text":"那就你們的相關的單位就跟教育部溝通那我非常的願意擔任兩部會之間的橋樑來解決這個特別是雙北那高校裡面學生租不到房子被迫要打工然後影響學就說就學權益的這個這個"},{"start":287.129,"end":312.865,"text":"階段性的結構上的弱勢謝謝范委員對於大專院校學生尤其是北漂的這些學生的一個支持那您所提到包括宿舍或是租屋或社宅的部分其實我們只要跟教育部其實都常常在有溝通那目前為止我們最有可能去處理的是租屋的部分就是擴大包租代管的民間社宅但是民間社宅的房源尤其是在"},{"start":313.285,"end":329.523,"text":"叫這個熱門的幾個大專院校的附近的房源不容易找到那如果房源很容易找到的話呢我們其實在用這個包租代管的方式來解決這個轉租學生的問題會最快也不需要修法那因為設宅的興建就一定程度的一個工期"},{"start":329.923,"end":343.834,"text":"比較不容易達到說用社宅的方式來轉租學生那畢竟這個分母還是太少那其他有關宿舍的部分的話呢我想我們可能跟教育部要來共同處理但是相關的部分我可不可以請署長跟您做一下簡單的回應"},{"start":346.376,"end":360.911,"text":"感謝啦因為我們其實在租金補貼的部分當時就是也到考慮到很多學生他其實說穿的都是住在違法頂價或地下室所以我們後來把租金補貼把這些都涵蓋進來那所以基本上"},{"start":361.656,"end":382.595,"text":"可以補助的範圍已經涵蓋到在學區內幾乎所有可能的條件大概都有了雙北如同我剛講的他還是要自負額還是蠻高的對對對所以就這個部分來講因為整個的結構如果要去調租金補貼的話是一個結構的問題那至於就是年輕人的部分那這個我們可以再來做一個檢討"},{"start":383.456,"end":401.063,"text":"因為對於可能有學生要包含年輕人甚至婚姻家庭他們也有類似的因為他們算在一般戶他們不算在弱勢戶那所以這一般戶的部分我們是不是有另外要去講我想這個我們都有跟行政院再提出一些建議那這個再給我們一些時間我們再跟院這邊的溝通"},{"start":402.003,"end":421.216,"text":"那這一部分可不可以再做另外的處理那謝謝剛剛部長說二租的部分可能性比較高那其他的部分就是謝謝署長的回應那是不是能夠在譬如說三個月內給我一個初步的報告呢那我也會追蹤一下促成你們跟教育部的積極合作好不好沒有問題好那謝謝部長辛苦了好謝謝范營委員的質詢下一位我們請王國威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":878,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時24分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安，辛苦了，最近要面對很多在我聽起來很不專業的質詢。我今天是想要為青年、特別是學生請命。我有看過你們今天的報告，在修法上，看起來內政部好像是覺得不需要把青年的部分放在裡頭，因為有各種的部分。我今天想說的是，不管這次的修法你們要不要納入青年，其實有些事情是不用修法，現在就可以做的，希望內政部可以去研議。","第一個，其實住宅法第一條講的「全體國民」，當然這包含學生嘛！只是學生的問題是，他可能不是經濟、社會的弱勢，但他有可能因為離鄉就學、本身還沒有穩定的收入，變成在外的結構性弱勢。譬如說在臺北市跟花蓮市，就租金等各方面面對的條件都不一樣，所以我說他可能是階段性、結構上的弱勢。其實監察院這份報告可以讓部長知道一下，裡面也表達目前大概有14%學生想住宿舍，但完全住不到。而且這14%是以全國來看，如果看都會的話更嚴重。根據教育部給我的資料，供給率倒數15名的學校有8所在雙北，我想部長應該很了解，這部分是都會特有的議題，所以監察院講的14%想住、應該可以住但住不到的，其實是不成比例地分布在雙北8所學校。你們在今天的報告中說，青年如果是自己住在外面的話，其實有租金補貼，可是以雙北為例，大家都知道雙北的租金愈來愈高，平均一個學生每個月可能要花7,000元到1萬4,000元。而根據現在租金補貼的單身倍率1.2，每個月其實只能申請到3,600元。甚至還有一些不肖房東因為有這項補助漲了房租，所以，一個在雙北的學生即使每個月得到你們的補助，還是要負擔3,500元到1萬元不等，就看他的學校是否在黃金位置。當然，你們說如果他是中低收入戶等等可以申請社宅，可是如同我們剛剛講的，社宅申請在社救法中目前還是以家庭為單位，要是他的家裡基本上還沒有到中低收入或弱勢、身障等程度，他本人在經濟方面可能就需要打工。我自己曾經在私立大學兼課，就知道學生打工的情況非常地嚴重，因為臺北市的生活費很高。","這是一個機會，希望我們來做，雖然在修法上你們認為本席版本中的青年不用納入，但我今天的訴求是部長可以做一些還不需要修法就能做的。第一，內政部應該跟教育部共同了解住宿供給率跟品質，主動輔導學校申請相關計畫，甚至提高補助。第二，就租屋部分，也可以擴大包租代管的民間住宅，鼓勵轉租給學生，納入學生相關經驗，再制定相關政策。第三，既有社宅如果是在雙北地區或某些據我所知有一定弱勢比例的地方，因應每個區情況不同，在可能的範圍內，是不是有可能專案跟學校合作，轉租給學生？我知道這些都不容易，但是今天教育部有高教司賴專委在這，對於教育部這邊，我已在push他們，他們基本上也承諾往你們這個方向移動。跨部會的合作難度很高，但是我很高興在你們今天的結論中提到「涉及學生、原住民等社會褔利事項，本部會積極與教育部等部會溝通」，所以，部長是不是可以承諾我，你們的相關單位近期之內就跟教育部溝通？我也非常願意擔任兩部會之間的橋梁，解決這個問題，特別是雙北高教學生租不到房子、被迫打工，導致影響就學權益這個階段性、結構上的弱勢。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝范委員對於大專院校學生、尤其是這些北漂學生的支持。對於您所提到的，包括宿舍、租屋或社宅問題，其實我們跟教育部常常溝通。目前為止，我們最有可能處理的是租屋部分，就是擴大包租代管的民間社宅。但是民間社宅的房源，尤其是在幾個比較熱門的大專院校附近，房源不容易找到。如果房源很容易找到的話，其實用包租代管的方式解決轉租學生的問題最快，也不需要修法。至於社宅因為興建就有一定程度的工期，所以比較不容易用社宅轉租學生的方式達到目的，畢竟這個分母還是太少。","其他有關宿舍的問題，我想我們可能要跟教育部共同處理，但是相關部分我可不可以請署長跟您簡單回應？"],["范委員雲：好，可以。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝啦！在租金補貼的部分，當時其實就是考慮到很多學生說穿了都是住在違法頂加或地下室，所以我們後來的租金補貼項目把這些都涵蓋進來。基本上，可以補助的範圍已經涵蓋學區內，幾乎所有可能的條件都有啦！後來也跟教育部……"],["范委員雲：不過在雙北如同我剛剛講的，自付額還是滿高的。"],["吳署長欣修：對，就這個部分來講，要調整租金補貼的話是結構問題，但年輕人的部分，我們可以再來檢討，因為可能包含學生、年輕人、甚至婚育家庭也有類似情況，因為他們算在一般戶，不算在弱勢戶。所以對於一般戶是不是要另外處理，我們都有向行政院提出一些建議。再給我們一些時間，讓我們跟院方溝通，看看這部分可不可以再做另外的處理。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。剛剛部長說二租的可能性比較高，其他部分就謝謝署長的回應。那麼是不是能夠在……譬如說3個月內給我一份初步報告呢？我也會追蹤一下，促成你們跟教育部的積極合作，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好，沒有問題。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的質詢。","下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160669","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160669","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5250c6c5310fa351318c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a5072d6cea2f53abe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:16:54 - 12:23:48","影片長度":"00:06:54","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T12:16:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:23:48+08:00","duration":414,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.44409375,"end":4.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.076593750000001,"end":6.0553437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.814093750000001,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.185343750000001,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.469093750000006,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.62784375000001,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.00221875000001,"end":195.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.67971875,"end":196.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.09721875000002,"end":201.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.65346875,"end":202.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.73346875000001,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.74346875,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.11034375000003,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.25346875000002,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.70034375,"end":319.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.33721875,"end":230.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.54221875,"end":321.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.51659375,"end":329.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.56596875,"end":338.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.21846875,"end":344.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.44534375,"end":347.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.22971875,"end":349.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.84971875,"end":352.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.54971875,"end":363.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.07096875,"end":385.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.51096875,"end":408.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.08096875,"end":409.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.36346875000004,"end":413.14784375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.489,"end":5.911,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請部長及署長劉部長 吳署長有請部長好 署長好今天我們討論的是住宅法的修法詢答那我自己也有一個提案版本是關於第22條的修法但是首先我想整體來說我們關注的是社會住宅它如何可以繼續的來去幫助我們的居住正義那過去因為我在台北市也擔任地方的市議員"},{"start":32.547,"end":59.334,"text":"這麼多年的期間我們台北市持續在興建社會住宅那現在當然也遇到了找地的問題那我想整體來說社會住宅有三點是最重要第一個是量就是我們必須要持續興建或者是找包租代管要有多的房源持續增加第二個就是租金要讓民眾是可以達到可負擔的租金第三個就是它的對象我們目前法定四成必須要有弱勢來居住但是弱勢的對象也包含很多個項目"},{"start":60.154,"end":87.956,"text":"哪些人应该要优先居住这个都是这几年在实务上在执行的时候我们会遇到的挑战那现在呢我看最新的统计去年我们全国的社会住宅新建加包住贷款已经达到20万户的目标那下一个目标就是我们百万租屋家庭支持计划我们希望新建要持续达到25万户包住贷款也要到25万户另外有50万户这其实已经超过了就是我们租金补贴的数量"},{"start":88.636,"end":106.881,"text":"這個要持續的來進行那也非常感謝內政部因為在我的選區台北市中正萬華區我們中央的萬華安居這個第一個在當時動土的時候我也有我上次是市議員也有參加非常的期待今年就有機會要開始的落成要招租了那另外也有零銷好市已經動土了"},{"start":109.002,"end":117.164,"text":"好再來是新河安居也就是我們國防部這個南機場9號基地已經核定在規劃當中所以我們是非常的支持社會住宅持續來興建那我提的這個版本22條的修改呢他就是關於我們的地價稅跟房屋稅按照現行法規的規定是地方政府是可以適當的來減免地價房屋稅的只是說他有一個5年要一次檢討"},{"start":135.527,"end":152.536,"text":"為什麼我認為這個很重要因為過去在台北市曾經發生當地方政府一度認為說涉宅的租金要去考量自償率甚至自償率要放回優先的時候曾經一度把涉宅租金的定價公式納入了地價稅跟房屋稅也就是說當他地價稅跟房屋稅加入分母的時候你分母變大分子也要變大結果什麼東西變大了租金就提高了"},{"start":159.739,"end":164.883,"text":"所以我們一直非常的重視地價稅房租稅其實可以減免所以當時呢這個地方的市議會要求市政府要來檢討這個公事那後來確實也把地價稅房屋稅拿掉了那我看了一下基隆市政府其實有訂定一個自治條例就直接明訂了房屋地價稅在涉宅的租金當中就其實不用計入那我現在想要請教一下因為我們按照現行法規這個五年一次檢討其實馬上也要到期了就是116年的1月就一年多的時間"},{"start":189.619,"end":207.058,"text":"政府這裡目前的態度是我們會來向行政院報請就延長這個見面的實現嗎是 各位報告因為其實房屋稅跟地價稅是地方稅那所以我們通常就是我們現在做法就是因為我們基本上要尊重地方"},{"start":207.538,"end":236.484,"text":"但是要提早告知他所以我們原廠都會提早先跟院報就希望延長那我們就會跟地方這邊來溝通那當然如果地方已經主動來做這樣的一個事情我想是比較好那另外一個是不是看是 所以我們已經報請行政院沒有 因為我們就會整體一起報所以我們確定是會朝向這個檢院延長的這個方向去報好 那我覺得這非常重要也要提早跟地方政府來溝通因為這個民眾最擔心的就是社宅好不容易蓋好了"},{"start":236.724,"end":258.411,"text":"但是萬一租金實在太高反而是超出了可負擔那就失去了我們一開始興建社宅要去達到居住正義的這個美意這一點我覺得非常的重要那再來就是要關切的是除了租金以外我們能不能去照顧到弱勢者這個我也要感謝內政部因為在台北市我們皆有的聚集地其實在我的選區就是萬華蒙甲公園龍山寺前面這個公園廣場"},{"start":262.992,"end":281.475,"text":"那我們今年終於要開始進行改建那也就牽涉到了我們街友要大量的來協助安置的問題所以非常感謝內政部協助我們來去協調台北市政府新北市政府和基隆桃園市政府我們要來提早進行安置而安置的房源很重要一個就是包住代管的社宅"},{"start":282.281,"end":311.591,"text":"它是过去都是要新建一个统一的安置场所现在有这个化整纹理的方式但是我们也发现到在包租代管的这个租屋市场之上弱势户要来承租其实常常房东可能会有一些担心跟考量所以这次我非常感谢约内政部跟台北市社会局都有协助我们来去辅导房东告诉他们说这我们后续都社工会持续的来去仿施照顾让他们免去这些担忧我们针对就是弱势户来协助他们在包租代管的市场里面"},{"start":312.051,"end":319.104,"text":"能够去比较能够去找到住房就是辅导或者奖励房东的部分我们是不是有相关措施"},{"start":319.848,"end":344.666,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們現在來講的話針對這個弱勢當然其實最主要是要提高房東的意願那房東的意願來講其實以目前我們跟台北市政府的合作經驗來說是直接像委員所講的有設公司那有一些我們專業的服務人員去告知房東我們可以提供什麼樣的協助讓房東在這方面比較不用擔憂其實他們"},{"start":345.527,"end":369.836,"text":"倒不會比較計較在這個稅負方面他們比較擔心的是這進來以後會不會以後變成我的負擔那所以這一點我們在目前合作是跟衛福部的合作裡面大概這樣的方式是比較恰當的也會讓房東房客都比較安心所以就這一點來講那至於對那另外一個就是說我們是透過公益團體的話公益團體再來轉租那其實我們是會給公益團體"},{"start":373.747,"end":390.467,"text":"這樣他會有再另外補助給他那請他來協助那這樣的話其實他能夠也就近直接照顧他那這樣的話讓房東房客兩端都是比較安全這個部分我知道現在這個內政部跟衛福部確實有這個弱勢房客儲遇的協助機制"},{"start":391.528,"end":412.646,"text":"但是我的提案是23條住宅法希望可以修法我覺得還是要入法比較是可長可久的一個保障但是我想我們先就現階段你們在執行上面的這個遇到的這個狀況我們可以先來討論那我希望後續我們能夠來繼續持續來去評估修法的方向好謝謝好謝謝吳佩儀委員下一位我們請范雲委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":853,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時16分）謝謝主席。請部長和署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好！"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好！署長好！今天我們討論的是住宅法的修法詢答，我自己也有一個提案版本，就是有關第二十二條的修法。首先整體來說，我們關注的是社會住宅要如何繼續幫助居住正義，因為過去我在臺北市擔任地方的市議員，這麼多年的期間，臺北市持續興建社會住宅，現在當然也遇到了找地的問題。我想整體來說，社會住宅有3點是最重要的，第一個是「量」，就是我們必須持續興建，或是找包住代管，就是要持續增加房源。第二個就是「租金」，要讓民眾可以負擔得起租金。第三個就是它的「對象」，目前法定必須要有四成可以讓弱勢來居住，但是弱勢的對象也包含很多個項目，哪些人應該要優先居住？這個都是這幾年實務在執行時我們會遇到的挑戰。","最新的統計，去年全國的社會住宅，興建加包租代管已經達到20萬戶的目標，下一個目標就是「百萬租屋家庭支持計畫」，我們希望興建要持續，要達到25萬戶；包租代管也要到25萬戶。另外還有50萬戶的租金補貼，其實這個數量已經超過了，這個要持續進行。也非常感謝內政部，在我的選區臺北市中正、萬華區，中央的「萬華安居」當時動土的時候，我當時是市議員，我也有參加，非常期待今年就有機會可以落成和招租了。另外還有「凌霄好室」也已經動土了。再來是「新和安居」，也就是國防部南機場九號基地，這個已經核定，現在正在規劃當中，我們非常支持持續興建社會住宅。","我提的第二十二條的修改版本，它是有關地價稅和房屋稅，按照現行法規的規定，地方政府可以適當減免地價稅和房屋稅，只是它有一個5年要檢討一次的規定。為什麼我認為這個很重要？因為過去臺北市曾經發生，當時地方政府一度認為社宅的租金要考量自償率，甚至是自償率要優先考量，他們曾經一度把社宅租金的定價公式納入地價稅和房屋稅。也就是說，當它的地價稅和房屋稅加入分母的時候，分母變大，分子也要變大，結果什麼東西變大了？租金就提高了，所以我們一直都非常重視地價稅和房屋稅，其實這是可以減免的，所以當時地方的市議會也要求市政府要檢討這個公式，確實，後來他們也把地價稅和房屋稅拿掉了。我看了一下，其實基隆市政府有訂定一個自治條例，直接明訂社宅的租金不用計入房屋稅和地價稅。","我現在想要請教一下，因為按照現行法規，其實5年檢討一次的期限馬上就要到了，就是116年的1月，只剩下一年多的時間，目前內政部的態度是會向行政院報請延長減免期限嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實房屋稅和地價稅是地方稅，我們現在的作法是，基本上我們要尊重地方，但是要提早告知它。原則上，我們都會提早報院，就希望延長，我們再跟地方溝通。當然，如果地方已經主動做這件事情，我想這是比較好的。另外一個是不是看賦稅署……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，所以我們已經報請行政院要延長了？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，我們會整體一起報。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們確定會朝減免延長的這個方向去報？"],["吳署長欣修：對，會提早呈報，會把它延長。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我覺得這個非常很重要，也要提早跟地方政府溝通，因為民眾最擔心的是，社宅好不容易蓋好了，但是萬一租金實在太高，超出負擔，那就失去了我們一開始興建社宅要達到居住正義的美意，這點我覺得非常重要。","再來要關切的就是，除了租金以外，我們有沒有照顧到弱勢者？這個我也要感謝內政部，因為臺北市街友的聚集地其實就在我的選區、萬華的艋舺公園，就是龍山寺前面的這個公園廣場。我們今年終於要開始進行改建，這也就牽涉到大量的街友要協助安置的問題。非常感謝內政部協助我們協調臺北市政府、新北市政府和基隆市、桃園市政府，我們要提早進行安置，而安置的房源其中有一個很重要的就是包租代管的社宅。過去都是興建一個統一的安置場所，現在有這個化整為零的方式。但是我們也發現，在包管代管這個租屋市場，弱勢戶來要承租，其實房東常常都會有一些擔心和考量，所以這次我非常感謝內政部和臺北市社會局都有協助我們輔導房東，也有告訴他們後續社工會持續訪視和照顧，讓他們免去這些擔憂。","針對弱勢戶，我們要協助他們在包租代管的市場裡能夠找到住房，就是輔導或是獎勵房東的部分，我們是不是有相關的措施？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，以現在來講，針對這個弱勢，其實最主要還是要提高房東的意願。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["吳署長欣修：以房東的意願來講，其實以目前我們跟臺北市政府的合作經驗來說，就像委員所講的，都是由社工師或是專業的服務人員告知房東我們可以提供什麼樣的協助，讓房東比較不用那麼擔憂。他們倒是不會計較稅賦，他們比較擔心的是，他們住進來之後，以後會不會變成我的負擔？針對這一點，目前我們是跟衛福部合作，這樣的方式也比較恰當，也會讓房客和房東都比較安心。另外一個，我們是透過公益團體再來轉租，我們會另外補助公益團體，請它來協助，他們就能夠就近直接照顧他，這樣的話，房東和房客兩端都會比較安全和安心。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個部分，我知道現在內政部和衛福部確實有弱勢房客的處遇協助機制，但是我的提案是希望住宅法第二十三條可以修法，我覺得還是要入法，這才是可長可久的保障。但是我想，我們先就現階段你們在執行上所遇到的狀況討論，我希望後續我們能夠繼續、持續評估修法的方向，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員。","下一位請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5c6ed7bf8067b370518c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319afd113443f1ac9aa35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:05:41 - 12:16:37","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T12:05:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:16:37+08:00","duration":656,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.98409375,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.844093750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":11.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.864718750000002,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.09221875,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.809093750000002,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.06096875,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.190343750000004,"end":36.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.189718750000004,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.38784375,"end":39.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.09221875,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.049718750000004,"end":42.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.23096875,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.024093750000006,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.73284375,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.80034375,"end":44.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.83409375,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.03659375,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.74096875,"end":55.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.75784375,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.047843750000006,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.89534375,"end":58.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.890968750000006,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.67471875000001,"end":65.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.96159375,"end":72.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.03659375000001,"end":84.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.63971875,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.03596875000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.60534375,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.38096875000001,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.91221875000001,"end":84.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.13159375000001,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.50284375000001,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":90.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.90721875,"end":93.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.25284375000001,"end":92.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.61971875,"end":93.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.95721875000001,"end":94.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.00784375,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.17659375000001,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.58159375000001,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.30721875,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.03284375000001,"end":104.47034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.64409375000001,"end":99.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.03596875000001,"end":128.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.64659375000001,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.66221875000001,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.83096875000001,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.65721875000001,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.71596875,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.95596875,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.87409375000001,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.56096875,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.64534375000002,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.09221875,"end":179.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.12534375,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.73659375000003,"end":185.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.04409375,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.99721875,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.17409375000003,"end":205.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.62346875,"end":210.37784375},{"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那所以這個不知情的人還以為說這福祉合一宅是民進黨執政的時候做的因為我們很快觀察出一定會有這個問題出來因為那時候爆發很多用這個債權去法拍的我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了所以我們主動從這個法拍的資料裡面去找出可能出現的問題主動移送給檢方來偵辦那到目前為止有三四五件已經在法院已經在審理當中"},{"start":140.035,"end":156.273,"text":"對啊那所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子我們現在民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子是好 那我再問一下那個因為住宅法我也有提案來修法我是提案這個第四條這個修改這個第二項就是說我把這一個育幼"},{"start":156.853,"end":178.784,"text":"這個未成年身心障礙者一人以上把他納進去因為我們現在的這個住宅法第四條它裡面有一項是身心障礙但是呢如果是這個家中有身心障礙的未成年人他不能去申請嘛因為未成年但是呢他的父母也不能去幫他申請因為他也不符合資格"},{"start":179.604,"end":204.026,"text":"那所以說我才會建議說在這個修改住宅法增加對於身心障礙者家庭的這個保護那我也有看到這個衛福部他們有提供意見就這個第四條第二項這個育有未成年身心障礙者一人以上他們的看法是說這個基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者的家庭經濟負擔保障身心障礙者的權益本部尊重主管機關那應該是內政部"},{"start":204.707,"end":220.896,"text":"所以我才說我們可以先透過行政協商的部分那如果衛福部也支持那我們去衛福部看起來是支持的啊對就我們再透過行政措施直接在後續就可以直接把它納入不一定要透過修法不一定透過修法吧就是雙方有協商有身心障礙者對對對"},{"start":224.11,"end":239.971,"text":"對對所以如果要修法我們也支持但是我們會先跟這個衛福部這種行程協商的部分先來做處理比較快就對了好那就是說這個未來就是如果家中有這一個未成年身心障礙者他們也是符合這個規定就對了是好"},{"start":242.057,"end":265.434,"text":"剛剛這個我看聽說很多委員提到就是說社會住宅因為我們現在按照你們出租辦法規定租賃其實是三年然後這個申請續租最長不得超過六年但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年那現在遇到一些問題就是說比如說家中有這個未成年子女他可能去住的時候未成年但是經過三年六年之後"},{"start":266.018,"end":288.032,"text":"還要念書了學籍在那邊我們社宅可以設籍嘛對不對學籍在那邊那遇到這個小孩子念書怎麼辦因為他已經在那邊生活圈都要在那邊了那有可能在那邊念了幾年小學幾年級之後那發現說六年已經到了那是不是可以再延長那還有就是說我們還有這個65歲以上的長者65歲住進去好了然後六年之後變成70幾歲了"},{"start":291.574,"end":308.855,"text":"其實幾歲你要再叫他再去找這個房子其實也是有點困難我們講社會住宅這部分的話是不是就是我們所提到的比如說有未成年子女學籍的問題還有老人家居住的一些問題這邊是不是可以做彈性做處理報告就是說其實"},{"start":309.636,"end":331.935,"text":"大概最大的困難是因為現在社宅的總量是不夠的如果今天再去延長的話他這個社宅的循環使用使用率就會降低了我知道困難點在這邊啦所以才會說像有一些是當然會透過其他包租代管跟租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續他可能就不一定在這裡但是在周遭嘛"},{"start":332.475,"end":348.957,"text":"那第二個就是說我們現在剛好也是六年一期的所以剛好各地的社宅第一波的社宅都已經輪完一輪了那其實有很多使用上的問題或者是剛剛所提到的有學籍的問題或者是他必須要轉換住房的問題我們現在都在收整這些意見"},{"start":350.719,"end":376.957,"text":"統一來做一個檢討看看我們後面再對於社宅的這個出租的辦法要不要再重新做一些修正我想這都值得檢討但是要直接去拉長租期恐怕會在使用上使用的效率上我也知道因為現在社宅數量還不夠那如果說久住的話也會變成說有這個需要的人他可能就住不進去所以我才講說因為現在內政部有這個300億的中央擴大租金補貼的專案那這個專案裡面特別有針對說比如說這個"},{"start":380.419,"end":408.485,"text":"你們有鼓勵婚姻還有加強關懷弱勢對於符合租金的金額你們是2000到8000還可以再加碼比如說他這個育有未成年子女一個人的話再加碼1.4倍然後租如此類以此類推然後經濟弱勢1.4倍社會弱勢1.2倍就是會增加啦那我想說如果是這樣子的話能不能在租金補貼這方面這倍數可以再多一點讓他們就是說有機會啦就是說如果已經在這邊住很久尤其老人家"},{"start":409.365,"end":428.973,"text":"70幾歲你要他搬走那他可能真的你要叫他去租房子可能也有一些困難的話是不是在這一個擴大租金補貼的這個倍數上面能夠再著以調整增加讓他們如果萬一不得已必須搬離的話比較容易在附近找到房子了解這我們會在整體來做一些討論來調配因為這個部分當然也會考慮到這個我們的這個財源的問題就是撥補的問題那第二個就是說"},{"start":436.909,"end":450.618,"text":"以哪些族群我想這都還有要再討論的空間但是這個方向我認為你們應該要去做處理好不好好那我最後一個問題我請教這個那部長跟署長請問應該是這個豬是跟地震是有關係的對好來好好謝謝這個這個"},{"start":456.071,"end":483.807,"text":"這個最近有個新聞蠻紅的就是在高雄有一個通口飯店租屋糾紛然後呢後來因為他是房東他就說他不知道說這一個他們租給他的比這個附近的這個租屋的這個平均的租金還要便宜這是他的說法啦但是我們也只要說就是說在租房子的時候租金到底怎麼去什麼是一個合理的價格那你們這邊有一個合理價格的一個評判的一個標準嗎"},{"start":485.92,"end":514.667,"text":"公委員報告一下大概會有幾個管道第一個部分就是有關於住宅類的部分因為我們現在有租金補貼所以我們現在每半年都有公佈租金的行情讓民眾來做一個知道那這個案子應該是商用的部分那一般店鋪或商用的部分如果透過仲介來做一個媒合的話那這個都要經過實價登錄然後去做一個查詢跟一個可以提供公開查詢所以如果在商用的部分也可以透過實價登錄的一個資料來做一個查詢好"},{"start":516.608,"end":535.288,"text":"那如果說房客跟房東之間出現了租金的問題你們現在都是用消保法來做處理就對了這個部分的話因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為那如果一般商用的或店鋪用的話他可以循鄉鎮市調節委員會的一個途徑來做處理"},{"start":538.371,"end":561.704,"text":"因為在我們這個租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例裡面我看到說這個第六條第六條你們有講到說租賃住宅的租金由出租人跟成租人約定不適用土地法第97條的規定這是第六條的規定但是第一條呢它其實開宗明就講得很清楚了這個維護人民居住權健全租賃住宅市場等等之類的那我在想"},{"start":562.304,"end":585.465,"text":"就是說如果有關於這一個租金這方面的話應該不是說放任如果按照第六條來看好像是放任就是說你就是房東跟房客在自由市場裡面你們去討論這個租金但是呢這個我們如果要保障這一個這個租客的話那其實在很多的這個先進國家他們都有對這個租金做一些立法上面的一個"},{"start":586.245,"end":608.007,"text":"介入不是完全任由這個市場機制來做決定的啦那我想說有關於這個第六條這部分的話那是不是我們也可以來做一些修正比如說我們這個你這個如果要房東要去調漲這個房租的話那是不是呢就原來這個租金的這個水準然後參考周邊的這個住宅租金的這個水準"},{"start":608.947,"end":628.664,"text":"還有物價上漲率還有出租人重大修繕所支出的費用然後就房租上漲的要件頻率幅度加以限制那作為管制房租的一個手段有關於住宅出令的部分的話我們就持續滾動前逃那個委員剛才提的建議其實我們也可以其實也可以來"},{"start":629.842,"end":653.314,"text":"來評估來檢討看看我的意思是說不是說第一個交給市場來決定第二個就是說那有什麼問題就是這個消保法或是說到什麼鄉鎮調解會去做處理其實我們的這一個租賃住宅市場的管理條例第六條其實已經有說得很清楚這個條例對於住宅類的部分其實對於租屋服都有一些相關的保障時間有限就先到這裡謝謝謝謝李崑禎"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時5分）謝謝主席。請內政部劉部長，還有國土署吳署長。"],["主席：劉部長有請，吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：請委員問住宅法的問題。"],["李委員坤城：一定是問住宅法。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我們今天是在講住宅法的修法，我先請教一下，我剛才有聽到國民黨的委員提到新北市板橋區的浮洲合宜宅，他說現在浮洲合宜宅是樂透宅，買到就賺到，然後好像一副這是民進黨政府做的。我請教一下吳署長，這個浮洲合宜宅是哪一個總統、哪一個內政部長、哪一個署長做的？"],["吳署長欣修：是在馬總統的任內。"],["李委員坤城：馬總統任內？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：我記得是2012年，那時候他們提出所謂的「合宜住宅政策」嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對，為什麼我們會有社會住宅？就是不可以再賣了、不應該再賣了。"],["李委員坤城：對，還有爆發弊案嘛！我記得那時候的營建署署長葉世文有爆發弊案、收賄等等之類的，後來社會住宅才會改成只租不賣。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：當時候的馬英九政府，他們的合宜住宅是可以買賣的，所以我聽說……"],["吳署長欣修：那是過了閉鎖期，但是那時候就是……"],["李委員坤城：閉鎖期，我記得……"],["吳署長欣修：就是用債權的方式來躲避閉鎖期這個問題。"],["李委員坤城：那是閉鎖期之前有這個，就是假債權真買賣這個方式。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：浮洲合宜宅的閉鎖期好像今年上半年就解鎖了嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：它有分5年和10年，到今年10年的已經結束了。"],["李委員坤城：已經結束了？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以是民進黨政府在收這個爛攤子欸！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：所以我聽到國民黨的委員在說這個浮洲合宜宅有這麼多的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：而且也是我們主動去抓出這些問題，然後主動移送給檢方。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以不知情的人還以為這個浮洲合宜宅是民進黨執政的時候做的。"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們很快就觀察出一定會有這個問題，因為那個時候爆發很多都是用債權去法拍的，我們就意識到這個問題已經出現了，所以我們就主動從法拍資料裡面去找出可能的問題，主動移送給檢方偵辦，到目前為止有35件法院已經在審理當中。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以是國民黨政府留下爛攤子，現在是我們民進黨政府在收拾這個爛攤子嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再問一下，住宅法我也有提案要修法，我是提案要修改第四條第二項，我把育有未成年身心障礙者1人以上納進去，因為現在住宅法第四條裡面有一項是身心障礙，但是如果家中有未成年的身心障礙者，他是不能去申請的，因為他未成年，他們的父母也不能幫他申請，因為他也不符合資格，所以我才會建議要修改住宅法，增加對身心障礙者家庭的保護。我也有看到衛福部提供的意見，就是第四條第二項：「育有未成年身心障礙者1人以上」，他們的看法是說：「基於減輕育有未成年身心障礙者家庭的經濟負擔，保障身心障礙者的權益，本部尊重主管機關」，這應該是內政部。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才說，我們可以先透過行政協商的部分，如果衛福部也支持，其實我們……"],["李委員坤城：衛福部看起來是支持的。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們再透過行政措施，後續就可以直接納入，不一定要透過修法。"],["李委員坤城：哦！不一定要透過修法的方式？"],["吳署長欣修：對，就是雙方協商有身心障礙者。如果要修法我們也支持，但是我們會先跟衛福部由行政協商的部分來處理。"],["李委員坤城：比較快就對了。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就是說，如果未來家中有未成年的身心障礙者，他們也是符合這個規定就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：好。我剛剛聽到很多的委員也都有提到社會住宅，因為現在按照你們的出租辦法規定，租賃期是3年，然後呢？申請續租最長不得超過6年，但是符合經濟或社會弱勢者可以延長到12年，但是現在遇到一些問題，譬如說：家中有未成年子女，他可能住的時候是未成年，但是經過3年、6年之後，他要唸書了，他的學籍在那邊，因為社宅可以設籍嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：他的學籍在那邊，這個小孩子要唸書的時候怎麼辦？因為他的生活圈都在那邊，他有可能在那邊唸了幾年的小學後，發現6年已經到了，這時候是不是可以再延長？還有65歲以上的長者，好，他65歲的時候住進去好了，住了6年之後，他變成七十幾歲了，這時候你要他再去找房子，其實這也是有點困難，所以社會住宅這個部分，就是我們所提到的，譬如說：有未成年子女學籍的問題，還有老人家的居住問題，這邊是不是可以彈性處理？"],["吳署長欣修：報告，其實大概最大的困難就是現在社宅的總量是不夠的。"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道。"],["吳署長欣修：如果今天再去延長的話，社宅的循環使用率就會降低了。"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道困難點在這邊，但是有沒有其他什麼權宜措施？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會說，像有一些就會透過包租代管或是租金補貼的方式讓他還可以繼續，他可能就不一定是住在這裡，但是可以住在周遭嘛！第二、現在剛好也是6年一期的社宅，各地第一波的社宅剛好都已經輪完一輪了，其實有很多使用上的問題，或是剛才所提到的學籍問題，或是必須要轉換住房的問題，我們現在都在搜整這些意見，會統一檢討，看後面的社宅出租辦法要不要再重新做一些修正，我想這個都值得檢討，但是要直接拉長租期，恐怕使用的效率會降低。"],["李委員坤城：對，我也知道現在社宅的數量還不夠，如果久住的話，也會讓需要的人可能就住不進去了，所以我才會講，因為現在內政部有「300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案」，這個專案裡面有特別的措施，譬如說我們有鼓勵婚育和加強關懷弱勢，對於符合資格者的租金，你們是補貼2,000元到8,000元，這還可以再加碼，譬如說：他育有未成年子女1人可以再加碼1.4倍，諸如此類、以此類推。經濟弱勢1.4倍、社會弱勢1.2倍，就是補貼會增加啦！我想說，如果是這樣子的話，租金補貼這部分的倍數可不可以再多一點？讓他們有機會啦！如果他們已經在這邊住很久，尤其是老人家，七十幾歲你要他搬走，真的，你叫他要去租房子，這真的可能會有困難，所以擴大租金補貼這個倍數是不是能夠再酌予調整或增加？如果萬一不得已，他們必須要搬離的話，他們也比較容易在附近找到房子。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。委員，我們會整體的討論和調配，因為這個部分還要考慮到我們的財源問題，就是撥補的問題。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["吳署長欣修：第二個，要以哪些族群，我想這個都還有討論的空間。"],["李委員坤城：但是我認為這個方向你們應該要好好的處理，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好，我們可以來討論。"],["李委員坤城：最後一個問題，部長跟署長請回。租屋應該是跟地政司有關系的吧？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。最近有一個新聞滿紅的，就是高雄有一個樋口飯糰店的租屋糾紛，後來房東說他不知道他租給他們的租金比同區域店面的平均租金還要便宜，這是他的說法啦！但是我們也知道，租房子的時候，多少的租金才是合理的價格？你們這裡有合理價格的評判標準嗎？"],["林代理司長家正：跟委員報告一下，這大概會有幾個管道，第一個就是有關住宅類的部分，因為我們現在有租金補貼，所以現在每半年我們都有公布租金的行情讓民眾知道。這個案子應該是商用的部分，一般店舖或是商用的部分，如果是透過仲介媒合的話，這個都要實價登錄，這個都可以提供公開查詢。如果是商用的部分，他也可以透過實價登錄的資料查詢。"],["李委員坤城：好，如果是房客跟房東之間出現租金的問題，你們現在都是用消保法處理就對了？"],["林代理司長家正：這個部分的話，因為消保法適用的是住宅類的租賃行為，如果是一般商用或是店舖用的話，他可以循鄉鎮市調解委員會的途徑處理。"],["李委員坤城：因為「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例」第六條有講到：「租賃住宅的租金，由出租人跟承租人約定，不適用土地法第九十七條的規定」，這是第六條的規定，但是第一條開宗明義就講得很清楚了：「為維護人民居住權，健全租賃住宅市場……」，我在想有關租金這方面應該不是放任，如果按照第六條來看的話，好像就是放任房東和房客在自由市場裡面去討論這個租金，但是如果我們要保障租客的話，其實這個在很多的先進國家，他們對於租金都有做一些立法上的介入，不是完全任由市場機制決定的啦！所以我想說，有關第六條這個部分，我們是不是也可以做一些修正？譬如說：如果房東要調漲房租的話，是不是就由原來的租金水準，然後再參考周邊住宅的租金水準，還有物價上漲率、出租人重大修繕所支出的費用，就房租上漲的要件、頻率、幅度加以限制，做為管制房租的手段？"],["林代理司長家正：有關住宅租賃的部分，我們會持續滾動檢討。委員剛才提的建議，其實我們也可以評估和檢討看看。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說，第一個，這不是交由市場決定；第二個，如果有什麼問題，就交由消保會或鄉鎮市調解委員會處理，其實「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例」第六條已經說得很清楚。"],["林代理司長家正：對，這個條例對於住宅類的部分，其實對於租屋族都有一些相關的保障，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK！時間有限就先到這裡，謝謝。"],["林代理司長家正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","下一位請黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","下一位請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160667","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160667","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e59539173ae84320f718c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a75b8ca2af51068035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:57:44 - 12:05:33","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:57:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T12:05:33+08:00","duration":469,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.40596875,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.39471875,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.70971875,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.49784375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.26096875,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.51784375000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.06909375000001,"end":117.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.34596875000001,"end":122.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.91096875000001,"end":197.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.26596875,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.93034375000002,"end":212.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.27596875,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.21596875,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.17784375000002,"end":240.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.43221875,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.55846875,"end":269.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.06471875,"end":272.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.16971875,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.54846875000004,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.34971875,"end":297.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.00971875000005,"end":329.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.96721875000003,"end":340.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.48409375,"end":365.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.28284375000004,"end":361.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.06721875,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.43346875000003,"end":371.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.63971875000004,"end":371.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.93471875,"end":389.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.91346875000005,"end":382.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.86034375,"end":396.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.16721875,"end":419.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.26909375,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.01159375000003,"end":427.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.57659375000003,"end":430.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.39034375,"end":427.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.54221875,"end":442.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.26159375000003,"end":443.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.74221875,"end":446.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.55159375000005,"end":462.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.11596875000004,"end":460.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.68034375,"end":466.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.43909375000004,"end":467.90721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.14,"end":5.342,"text":"最近陸委會一直在鼓勵國人要進行去大陸的登錄系統我們看到去大陸的登錄系統"},{"start":23.115,"end":47.71,"text":"陆委会所推动的这个比例你可以看到其实登录的人次非常的少如果说从启动这个系统到现在为止那么大致上我们算出的比例大概就是1.46%也就是出去100个人其实登记的大概顶多是两个人那么现在陆委会又请内政部这里要配合要做有关于宗教"},{"start":49.131,"end":56.909,"text":"團體等等這些團體赴大陸的登錄那麼請問內政部對於登錄系統的看法如何"},{"start":58.182,"end":82.28,"text":"報告委員當然這個議題不是處理住宅法那我跟委員報告一下就是不管是宗教團體或是其他的團體我們在多次的記者會裡面都有提到這是鼓勵制那跟那個陸委會所公布的附入的登錄人數他是根據那個兩岸人民關係條例必定要一定登記的是不太一樣所以我們用鼓勵的方式"},{"start":82.74,"end":85.424,"text":"那同時我們也請我們常務次長跟宗教團體還有這些人民團體做充分的溝通那目前為止願意一起來做登錄的蠻多請問下次到目前為止已經有多少的團體有登錄"},{"start":97.96,"end":103.343,"text":"我們這個是滾動式的我還沒有去看那現在呢我們所了解就是說它裡面呢不會出現自然人只會出現團體的名稱所以我們看到就說好像不僅是宗教團體包含社會團體啊這個怎麼其他職業團體人民團體等等其實依照你們現在建議都要登錄嗎"},{"start":117.429,"end":135.775,"text":"不是都要我已經講過鼓勵制度他可登錄可不登錄那麼因為本席其實在之前總諮詢的時候我已經也詢問過其實陸委會對於這個登錄他目前為止就算是國人在大陸那裡發生什麼緊急的狀況有意外事故其實目前陸委會還有我們"},{"start":136.915,"end":157.807,"text":"台湾这边看起来也没有什么救助的能力那么所以呢就这个部分来讲的话我只是想要提醒内政部就是说如果说你们现在要启动这样的一个系统鼓励这个前往大陆的团体要登陆的话那真正如果发生什么事情的话其实内政部这边也应该要有所准备怎么样能够强化疾难救助的事情"},{"start":158.467,"end":163.612,"text":"好那接下來呢我想要再針對就是也是前兩天因為有台中議員有揭露這個國防部又發給有六間宮廟增掉空間存放軍火那雖然說我們的"},{"start":174.523,"end":194.382,"text":"這國防部部長有出來澄清說這不是存放軍火是徵求部隊休息的地方但是呢我也必須在這邊要再重申的就是在去年7月份其實當時就已經爆發出有苗栗有多間宮廟有收到軍方的公文要求要簽訂彈藥遇囤點的支援協定書"},{"start":197.585,"end":219.075,"text":"那么在那个时候其实本席已经有质询过国防部那么认为说这个事情很严重我不知道内政部作为公庙的宗教团体的主管机关你们晓不晓得一旦宗教团体被要求要存放相关的军药弹火那么对于公庙团体的影响是什么嗯"},{"start":221.349,"end":239.685,"text":"報告委員我想國防部已經對外多次澄清那我所了解他們所依據的是權動法那目前為止呢我們並沒有收到特別的這個宗教團體跟這個我們的宗教師提出這樣子的疑慮所以我想很多宗教團體大概就是配合權動法"},{"start":240.486,"end":261.956,"text":"好來我們看一下權動法的規定權動法裡面的規定其實非常的清楚只要是人民日常生活基本生活所必須的就是包含常常去中廟裡面去拜拜還有就是涉及到有關於這個相關的這個場所設備基本上是不可以徵購跟徵用的也就是說現在中廟宗教團體這些廟宇寺廟應該是要排除在全民防衛動員法第29條之外那麼"},{"start":270.3,"end":297.732,"text":"现在内政部民政司作为公庙团体主管机关应该要了解相关的法规应该要善尽保护公庙的责任可是我看起来就是部长对相关的这个法律的规定并不清楚不晓得说其实公庙不可以拿来作为存放弹药的或者是作为这个什么军队休息的地方"},{"start":298.212,"end":318.502,"text":"報告委員我剛已經說過國防部已經多次澄清那有關全民防衛動員準備法的這個法條的內容當然是由國防部來說明或解釋因為他們才是主管機關但是我看到委員所提的這個29條的第5項有一個叫其他經行政院指定公告者"},{"start":319.002,"end":339.859,"text":"所以事实上呢这个宗教的这个场合是不是适合作为国军休息的地方我想是有讨论的空间那这一点我会请国防部再跟委员说明清楚因为据本席了解应该是还没有在指定公告的范围里面那我本席要强调的是我们看一下就是其他的这个相关的国际条约里面所要求的"},{"start":340.62,"end":359.812,"text":"这个战争法很重要的原则就是居民区分原则啊如果说一旦一个民用物体那么它变成是一个被敌方认为它是一个军事作战地方它会成为军事目标那么未来就会被攻击这是很严重的事情那么内政部民政司应该要把相关的条文规定"},{"start":362.193,"end":388.987,"text":"报告委员我们现在并没有战争你要引用国际战争法我没有办法目前就跟你做回答但是战争随时随地都有可能会发生那是你说的以你们现在民进党政府的做法到目前为止在台湾人民的生活都是安和乐利谢谢委员指教如果说这样的话那你们为什么要去动用要去做这些防卫的演习"},{"start":389.947,"end":415.524,"text":"事实上我觉得民进党政府就是很不负责任你们今天没有把事实的真相清楚的告诉公庙去欺骗那些公庙他们都是善心团体善心人士以为说今天能够帮助到军人军民但是事实上他们未来会成为非常危险军事攻击的目标我认为内政部你们作为这些宗教团体的主管机关"},{"start":420.347,"end":446.591,"text":"去糊弄他们去欺骗他们报告委员我们从来没有糊弄宗教团体宗教团体的人都非常善心而且愿意配合国家的政策请内政部要提供到底现在有多少公庙已经收到来自军方的公文要求要签订这些协议书请你们可以提供给我们报告委员我们真的没有这个资料我们手头上没有这个资料恐怕要请教国防部"},{"start":448.621,"end":467.773,"text":"所以由此可见就是内政部你们根本就不配做宗教团体的主管机关谢谢委员的指教谢谢委员的指教我想离妹的指定我们没有配合宗教我们都是按照全民防卫动员法还有民防法谢谢委员的指教谢谢翁小英委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時57分）謝謝，有請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：先請教部長，我們知道最近陸委會一直在鼓勵赴陸的國人上網進行登錄，可是調閱赴陸登錄系統的登錄比例可以看到登錄的人次非常少，從陸委會啟動這個系統到現在為止，大致上我們算出的比例大概就是1.46%，也就是出去100個人，登記的大概頂多是2個人。現在陸委會又請內政部配合，要做有關於宗教團體等等團體赴大陸的登錄，請問內政部對於這個登錄系統的看法如何？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，當然這個議題與住宅法修正草案之處理無關。","我跟委員報告，不管是宗教團體或是其他的團體，我們多次在記者會裡面都有提到，這是鼓勵制，跟陸委會所公布的赴陸登錄人數，它是根據兩岸人民關係條例必定要登記的不太一樣，我們是用鼓勵的方式，同時我們也請我們的常務次長跟宗教團體等人民團體充分的溝通，目前為止願意一起來做登錄的蠻多，而且我們有強調……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問一下，目前為止已經有多少個團體登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：我們那個是滾動式的，我還沒有去看，現在我們所了解的就是其中不會出現自然人，只會出現團體的名稱以及起迄的……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我們看到的好像不僅是宗教團體，其他包含社會團體、職業團體、人民團體等等，依照你們現在的建議都要登錄嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：不是都要，我已經講過是鼓勵制度，他可登錄可不登錄。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，鼓勵他們登錄，OK。本席之前在總質詢的時候已經詢問過，對於陸委會這個登錄，目前為止，就算國人在大陸發生什麼緊急的狀況或有意外事故，目前陸委會還有我們臺灣這邊，看起來也沒有什麼救助的能力，所以就這個部分來講，我只是想要提醒內政部，如果你們現在也要啟動這樣的系統，鼓勵前往大陸的團體要登錄的話，針對如果發生什麼事情的話，內政部也應該要有所準備，怎麼樣能夠強化急難救助的能力。","接下來我想要再針對前兩天，有臺中議員揭露國防部又發文給六間宮廟徵調空間存放軍火，雖然國防部部長出面澄清表示，這不是存放軍火，是徵求部隊休息的地方。但是我也必須在此重申，去年7月份當時就已經爆發苗栗有多間宮廟收到軍方的公文，要求簽訂彈藥預屯點的支援協定書，那時候本席已經質詢過國防部，認為這個事情很嚴重，我不知道內政部作為宮廟（宗教團體）的主管機關，你們曉不曉得一旦宗教團體被要求存放軍火彈藥，對於宮廟團體的影響是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想國防部已經多次對外澄清，就我所了解他們依據的是全動法，到目前為止，我們並沒有特別收到宗教團體跟我們宗教司提出這樣的疑慮，所以我想很多宗教團體，大概就是配合全動法。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，來，我們看一下全動法的規定。全動法裡面的規定非常清楚，只要是人民日常基本生活所必需的，包含常常去廟裡面拜拜，還有涉及相關的場所設備，基本上是不可以徵購跟徵用的，也就是說宗教團體的廟宇、寺廟，應該要排除在全民防衛動員準備法第二十九條之外。內政部民政司作為宮廟團體的主管機關，應該要了解相關的法規，應該要善盡保護宮廟的責任，可是我看起來部長您對相關的法律規定並不清楚，不曉得其實宮廟不可以拿來存放彈藥或者是作為軍隊休息的地方。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛說過國防部已經多次澄清，有關全民防衛動員準備法的法條內容，當然是由國防部來說明或解釋，因為他們才是主管機關。但是我看到委員所提的第二十九條第五項是「其他經行政院指定公告者。」所以宗教場地是否適合作為國軍休息的地方，我想是有討論的空間，這一點我會請國防部再跟委員說明清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這個部分可能要去看，因為據本席了解，應該是還沒有在指定公告的範圍裡面。本席要強調的是，我們去看一下相關的國際條約裡面所要求的，國際戰爭法首要原則就是「軍民區分原則」，一旦一個民用物體被敵方認為是軍事作戰用途的話，它會成為軍事目標，未來就會被攻擊，這是很嚴重的事情，內政部民政司應該要把相關的條文規定……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在並沒有戰爭，你要引用國際戰爭法，我沒有辦法目前就給你回答。"],["翁委員曉玲：世界都在做準備，不是嗎？但是戰爭隨時隨地都有可能會發生……"],["劉部長世芳：那是你說的。"],["翁委員曉玲：以你們現在民進黨政府的作法，基本上就是不斷地提升兩岸緊張敵對的趨勢……"],["劉部長世芳：那是委員說的，到目前為止，在臺灣人民的生活都是安和樂利。謝謝委員指教。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個本來就是一個趨勢，如果照你說的這樣，那你們為什麼要去動用、要去做這些防衛演習？事實上我覺得民進黨政府就是很不負責任，你們今天沒有把事實的真相清楚的告訴宮廟，去欺騙那些宮廟，他們都是善心團體、善心人士，以為今天能夠幫助到軍民，但事實上他們未來會成為非常危險的軍事攻擊的目標。我認為內政部作為宗教團體的主管機關，應該善盡保護宗教團體的責任，而不是去糊弄他們、去欺騙他們，讓他們成為無辜的受害者，我想這個部分還請內政部要提供……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們從來沒有糊弄宗教團體，宗教團體的人都非常善心，而且願意配合國家的政策。"],["翁委員曉玲：請內政部要提供到底現在有多少宮廟已經收到來自軍方的公文，要求要簽定這些協定書？請你們提供我們相關的資料。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們真的沒有這個資料，我們手頭上沒有這個資料，恐怕要請教國防部。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以由此可見，內政部你們根本就不配做宗教團體的主管機關，你們除了會加強管制之外，你們根本就沒有好好的去保護這些宗教團體。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，我想你一昧的指正我們沒有配合宗教，我們都是按照「全民防衛動員準備法」和「民防法」的規定，謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e51d5a35136623c75318c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a74277e4527d10aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:46:22 - 11:57:32","影片長度":"00:11:10","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:46:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:57:32+08:00","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.20846875,"end":26.558468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.781593750000003,"end":30.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.03034375,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.97534375,"end":32.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.09346875,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.46034375,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.126593750000005,"end":37.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.37534375,"end":38.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.57534375,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.35971875,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.31284375,"end":87.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.12284375,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.21971875,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.57784375,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.51846875000001,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.07409375,"end":103.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.65596875,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.69346875000001,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.99284375,"end":114.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.87784375000001,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.78471875000001,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.96971875000001,"end":123.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.43346875,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.64409375000001,"end":128.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.73659375,"end":130.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.01471875000001,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.92159375,"end":134.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.20409375,"end":136.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.39346875,"end":139.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.49846875,"end":144.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.95346875,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.59409375,"end":150.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.96096875,"end":155.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.10346875000002,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.26346875000002,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.10284375,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.82409375,"end":166.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.65471875,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.71346875,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.35409375,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.05409375000002,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.47159375,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.02846875,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.04534375,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.60221875000002,"end":178.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.24346875,"end":179.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.58096875,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.68221875,"end":182.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.80034375000002,"end":179.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.83784375000002,"end":183.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.91784375,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.53346875000003,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.63846875000002,"end":194.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.05534375000002,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.40034375000002,"end":201.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.64909375000002,"end":203.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.10034375,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.36159375000003,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.45409375000003,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.78659375,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.41846875000002,"end":221.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.75159375,"end":222.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPE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辛苦了這個都會期的原住民人口已經佔全體原住民人口的51.46%所以相關社會住宅"},{"start":104.707,"end":133.771,"text":"的相關的這些規定基本上主要就是希望能夠在原住民而言就是希望能夠協助都會期的原住民而我們原住民人口剛剛講了51.46%在都會期而住宅自由利住宅自由利沿岸之間的差距13%以上如果扣除原鄉的"},{"start":134.335,"end":162.916,"text":"住宅自由率如果光看這個渡會期的住宅自由率沿漢之間的差距更會高達百分之二三十以上這個是基本的一個數字所以我們看在還沒有原住民族基本法也還沒有住宅法之前無論是過去的省政府或是中央政府我們看八十一年一億"},{"start":163.967,"end":191.652,"text":"一億多的錢一億五千多萬新建了原住民的基隆市的國宅那時候是國宅好84年新建的中正國宅這個中正國宅但是是用公務預算去買了這個國宅買了國宅然後變成一般的"},{"start":192.27,"end":220.907,"text":"住宅一般的集合式住宅那時候是為了安置新店的黃河快速道路的我們的鄉親然後汐止汐止花東新村這個是用公務預算去買民間新建的集合住宅直接用公務預算買民間的新建的集合式住宅這最快花了這個"},{"start":224.075,"end":251.214,"text":"2億多的一個經費剛那個是不止2億然後這個91年在這個是直接興建在這個興建在三峽所以在這樣的一個情形之下還沒有原住民族基本法還沒有這個住宅法的時候那原住民族基本法特別規定政府應測定原住民族的住宅政策"},{"start":252.554,"end":280.667,"text":"第28條原基法也規定對都會區的安基要提供這樣的一個保障跟協助所以住宅法我在105年提出修正這個第二條增加第四項目的事業主管機關英式原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要應該要興建這個專攻原住民成都之社會住宅"},{"start":282.642,"end":309.499,"text":"之所以會提到教育文化語言這個很重要在都會期所以我第一個提出來的其實不是這條第一個提出來的是租屋補助我了解到都會期的問題所以我提出了租屋補助是從嚴明會開始的實施三年之後內政部認為這個"},{"start":310.783,"end":338.077,"text":"這政策不錯應該要推到全國性才開始有全國性的租屋補助這個就是我當延民會副主委的時候所提出的租屋補助所以這個跟我們的教育文化語言有非常密切的關係所以租债法在105年12月23號做了這樣的一個修正好我們看這個"},{"start":341.094,"end":364.53,"text":"這個為了這個經費我也諮詢過當時的106年的內政部同意用住宅基金來去指引這個專攻原住民的社會住宅今天嚴明會的報告裡面提了這些細節啊還有是這個中正國宅或是榮恩埔啊包括高雄市的都不是"},{"start":365.632,"end":393.797,"text":"住宅法所稱的社會住宅所以你們雖然寫了這樣的一個人口個個複數另外很重要的就是因為住宅法修正之後105年修正之後都沒有一個都沒有所以我質詢當時的行政院院長那時候林部內政部部長說在台中樹林大溪有541戶"},{"start":396.028,"end":423.862,"text":"在進行中但是經過幾年之後第二年之後幾個月之後都答覆說都沒有都沒有成了一個都沒有一個都沒有所以這個部分這個住宅法修正已經八年四個月結果專攻原住民興建的社會住宅一個都沒有主要就是經費"},{"start":425.27,"end":448.143,"text":"第二個我剛擠的這些例子前面的研究法之前的這些例子都是中央主導的不是台灣省政府主導就是中央來主導因為我們的都會期的鄉親他會跨縣市工作會跨縣市"},{"start":450.009,"end":477.675,"text":"工作會跨縣市所以有了社會住宅有了專攻原住民的社會住宅之後他會跨縣市所以必須要由中央所以我才會提出這個修法提出修法是我對都會區的原住民的了解提出所以應該要由中央主管機關以原住民族委員會來共同去推動因為第一個就是說"},{"start":479.182,"end":507.646,"text":"畢竟住宅法的主管機關是內政部第二住宅基金也在內政部而真正需要去了解原住民族的部會區就是演民會所以原來的條文 目的事業主管機關原來的條文 現行條文啊演民會都把它推給地方政府事實上按照住宅法的規定啊"},{"start":508.87,"end":537.819,"text":"縣市直轄市縣市政府是地方主管機關他是住宅法的地方的主管機關所以真正目的十月主管機關其實是中央人民會就原住民族這條條文的話目的十月主管機關其實就是指中央人民會只不過當初少了中央這兩個字所以這個部分是應該把它明確化"},{"start":538.823,"end":562.748,"text":"所以我提出這樣的一個修正條文 請問一下部長可以支持嗎我是不是請股仲副主委跟您回應一下剛剛的幾個重要的問題好 謝謝委員那我想按照住宅法的規定 主管機關在中央是內政部在地方就是指甲縣市政府"},{"start":563.479,"end":586.369,"text":"那委員這個提案就是說 另外我要提就是說 墓地事業主管機關其實不是在住宅法裡面 他沒有規定是不是延民會他是各個墓地事業都可以 我舉例像桃園市在規劃的專屬原住民社會住宅 現在都因為流標十幾次所以一直沒有辦法成他的新辦主管機關是 墓地事業主管是農田水利署"},{"start":586.829,"end":612.899,"text":"那他是要專攻原住民那個已經取消了農田水利署那個他們已經取消了但是我的意思是說目的事業主管機關應該不要只集中在原民這部分這樣我們才有更多的資源去做農田水利署他只不過是提供土地所以他真正的目的事業主管還是應該是要中央演民會因為直轄市政府他是一個地方的主管機關所以這個因為時間的關係這個我們在"},{"start":617.67,"end":642.103,"text":"條文審查的時候可以再去處理另外就是一個建議這個建議內政部內政部先辦社會住宅出租辦法訂了這個年限那因為現在這個新建社會住宅的那個量沒有辦法達成然後三年或是幾年就要去換就要改增加了"},{"start":643.83,"end":667.842,"text":"增加了人民租社會住宅的人民的搬遷的這些費用這些都是一個需要考量的部分當然希望能夠蓋得越快越好但是市政府是沒有辦法達成所以這個一併的來給這個看能不能再加長這個租社會住宅成住的一個期限以上 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員 下一位我們請翁曉琳委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":736,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時47分）主席、各位委員。有請部長及谷縱副主委。"],["主席：請部長及原民會谷縱副主委。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好，辛苦了。都會區的原住民人口已經占全體原住民人口的51.46%，所以社會住宅的相關規定，基本上就原住民而言，就是希望能夠協助都會區的原住民。剛剛講了有51.46%的原住民人口在都會區，以住宅自有率來說，原漢之間的差距達13%以上，如果扣除原鄉的住宅自有率，也就是光看都會區的住宅自有率，原漢之間的差距更會高達百分之二、三十以上，這個是基本的一個數字。","在還沒有原住民族基本法，也還沒有住宅法之前，無論是過去的省政府或是中央政府，在81年的時候，以一億五千多萬興建了原住民在基隆市的國宅，那時候是國宅；84年新店的中正國宅，當時是用公務預算去買這個國宅，然後變成一般的集合式住宅，那時候是為了安置新店環河快速道路我們的鄉親；然後汐止的花東新村，這個是用公務預算去買民間興建的集合住宅，直接用公務預算買民間興建的集合式住宅，這種方式最快，花了二億多的經費，剛剛那個不只二億啦；然後91年是直接在三峽興建，這是在還沒有原住民族基本法、還沒有住宅法時候的情形。","原住民族基本法特別規定政府應策訂原住民族住宅政策，原基法第二十八條也規定，對都會區原住民的安居要提供保障及協助。所以我在105年提出住宅法修正，在第二條增加第四項「目的事業主管機關應視原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要，會同主管機關，興辦或獎勵民間興辦，專供原住民承租之社會住宅。」之所以會提到教育、文化、語言，這個很重要，在都會區。所以我第一個提出來的不是這條，第一個提出來的是租屋補助，我了解到都會區的問題，所以我提出了租屋補助，是從原民會開始的。實施三年之後，內政部認為這個政策不錯，應該要推到全國，才開始有全國性的租屋補助，這個就是我當原民會副主委的時候所提出的租屋補助，這個跟我們的教育、文化、語言有非常密切的關係，所以住宅法在105年12月23號做了這樣的修正。為了這個經費，我也質詢過106年的內政部，同意用住宅基金來去支應這個專供原住民的社會住宅。","今天原民會的報告裡面提到這些供原住民承租的住宅，包括汐止花東新村、新店中正國宅或是三峽隆恩埔社宅，還包括高雄市的社宅，但都不是住宅法所稱的社會住宅，所以你們雖然寫了這樣的戶數。另外，很重要的就是，住宅法在105年修正之後，一個都沒有，我質詢當時的行政院院長，那時候內政部部長說在臺中、樹林、大溪有541戶在進行中，但是第二年之後，就在幾個月之後又答復說都沒有成，一個都沒有！所以住宅法修正已經8年4個月了，結果專供原住民承租的社會住宅一個都沒有，主要就是經費問題。","第二個，我剛剛舉的這些例子，在制定原基法之前的這些例子，都是中央主導的，不是臺灣省政府主導就是中央來主導，因為我們都會區的鄉親會跨縣市，工作會跨縣市，所以有了專供原住民的社會住宅之後，他會跨縣市，所以必須要由中央來做，我才會提出這個修法啊，提出修法是基於我對都會區原住民的了解，應該要由中央主管機關與原住民族委員會共同去推動。第一個就是說，畢竟住宅法的主管機關是內政部；第二個，住宅基金也在內政部，而真正需要去了解原住民族都會區的就是原民會，所以原來現行條文的目的事業主管機關，原民會都把它推給地方政府，事實上，按照住宅法的規定，直轄市、縣市政府是地方主管機關，它是住宅法的地方主管機關，所以真正的目的事業主管機關其實是中央原民會，就原住民族這條條文的話，目的事業主管機關就是指中央原民會，只不過當初少了「中央」這兩個字，這個部分應該把它明確化，所以我提出這樣的修正條文。請問一下部長，可以支持嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請谷縱副主委跟您回應一下，剛剛提到的幾個重要問題？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：謝謝委員。依住宅法的規定，主管機關在中央是內政部，在地方就是直轄市縣市政府；另外，住宅法裡面沒有規定目的事業主管機關是不是原民會，而是各個目的事業主管機關都可以。我舉例，像桃園市規劃的專屬原住民的社會住宅，現在因為流標十幾次，所以一直沒有辦法成案，其目的事業主管機關是農田水利署，那它是要專供原住民……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那個已經取消了，農田水利署那個案子，他們已經取消了。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對，因為流標很多次。對，但是我的意思是，目的事業主管機關應該不要只侷限在原民這部分，這樣我們才有更多的資源去做……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：谷縱副主委，農田水利署只不過是提供土地，所以它真正的目的事業主管機關應該還是中央原民會，因為直轄市政府是地方的主管機關。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為時間的關係，我們可以在條文審查的時候再去處理。另外還有一個建議，內政部興辦社會住宅出租辦法明定租賃年限，因為現在興建社會住宅的量沒有辦法達成，然後三年或是幾年就要改，增加了承租社會住宅人民的搬遷費用，這些都是需要考量的部分。當然我們希望社宅能夠蓋得越快越好，但是事實上沒有辦法達成，所以請一併考量，看能不能再加長社會住宅承租的期限。以上。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","下一位我們請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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所以我們要補充說什麼台灣的摩托要趕快去抽美國的市場對不對"},{"start":176.937,"end":186.309,"text":"再去美國的市場但是中國的模特兒模特兒不會去美國 它不會來哪裡不會來日本嘛日本跟中國是連關稅但是我們台灣小日本是六趴的關稅所以我們現在是不是在日本的模特兒市場受到中國的威脅"},{"start":193.999,"end":206.63,"text":"是不是這樣?是所以說一個無約的關稅差別會造成說原來美國的市場我們台灣要趕快去吃但是我們在日本的市場要歡樂中國來吃是不是這樣?是好來我給你們看好來所以另外一方美國是不是出口很多紅豆?是美國出口的紅豆是不是最近一半是在中國?中國現在中國會跟美國買紅豆嗎?所以你看這樣美國的紅豆會下降嗎?"},{"start":223.581,"end":235.227,"text":"有可能的下去美國的黃小玉下去對台灣的容顏什麼衝擊 什麼影響我們台北分的黃小玉都對美國來啊所以我們有好康就對了嘛大家同意就有好康就好現在我們來看世界在吃豬肉 進豬肉 出豬肉出口豬肉的國家是不是這幾個國家後面 美國只有大部分這豬肉要統治的是中國 日本 白色國家 英國有台灣沒有沒有嘛 台灣很小喔 想想看 來"},{"start":253.427,"end":276.732,"text":"台灣齁 現在齁 台灣吃的豬肉一成是進口的六成是我們本土的九成九成啦齁 本土的豬肉99%是供應過來的不夠1%是消外國消兩千噸嘛 消哪裡新加坡 菲律賓有消日本嗎呃 加工的有加工的有齁過去30年間 台灣的豬肉出口是現在的超過100倍是27萬公噸 噸啦 27萬噸"},{"start":283.306,"end":298.235,"text":"現在只剩下兩千塊我給你們來看來所以你要看30年前日本進口的地霸有4成來自台灣台灣出口的地霸有9成是小日本日本對台灣的地霸市場有重要嗎多少有重要但是現在呢"},{"start":299.176,"end":313.363,"text":"現在日本的他的進口的地盤美國、加拿大跟其他都請不上司機問詢對不對有台灣嗎沒有所以說台灣的地盤我們現在要出口是不是修正科留的應該是日本的集團市場是好來往那邊看請問台灣的地盤出口有什麼優勢"},{"start":317.54,"end":339.453,"text":"我們的地板好吃啊好吃不會燒焦嘛有煙過嘛我們它通風不燒焦但是治療尋問管人工管對不對是所以好來往下面看來下面所以我們的治療我們的起地的尋問裡面都是人工管黃曉玉啊對 治療檢查過六成是但是我們的治療比例裡面黃曉玉在哪裡"},{"start":342.887,"end":353.058,"text":"約米超過五成,大豆、紅豆、薄荷超過兩倍,還有三成的油脂三成的動物油對不對?所以說如果美國的黃小玉落價,我們台灣的飼料落價,台灣的飼料的競爭,地霸的競爭,那是不是很危險?"},{"start":362.481,"end":372.543,"text":"治療才不同關嘛 是所以治療落隔我們台灣的第二競爭的開關嘛 全部落隔我們就有我們的競爭力有競爭力嘛 啊你這樣好 要存這行治療用油對待錢感恩仔應該是我們國內自己有很多的那個化製油脂的部分 治療的油啊很多都是卡料啦台滴的卡料 下腳料 還有地霸來啦但是地霸來台灣人有在吃啦"},{"start":390.619,"end":397.998,"text":"美國人有在吃豬肩嗎?比較沒有啦 他們不會吃所以說你來想啦卡了 以為卡了是不是美國很多"},{"start":401.338,"end":422.792,"text":"這就是要跟你考慮的就是這樣我問過一些治療手因為說現在這個黃曉玉下去治療的成分更多對他們來說是好事但是他們欠什麼他欠瘦的當然是油啦就是卡尿啦所以你能支持我們的協博書去了解一下嗎現在美國在黃曉玉下去之後他們的卡尿他們出口很多滴肉嘛他們賣其他國家的滴肉到那裡賣卡尿有在賣滴肉來嗎"},{"start":432.392,"end":459.166,"text":"所以這個時候我相信他們的卡尿也受所以我們現在的治療我們的油我們的動物油進口有進口黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆油黃豆"},{"start":461.291,"end":463.593,"text":"不要用過的東西不要用過其實是你不知道啦我們治療前有在用啦靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜"},{"start":489.653,"end":494.355,"text":"要總體來看總體來看來 苦寶針我們做的來說台語你也會通來兩個來 最好結論啦 結論啦什麼農業部農業部 處長你是不是可以講解起了原來的處長介紹以及提醒台灣地霸去日本的市場這麼有倫 你來提一個報告"},{"start":509.377,"end":516.759,"text":"去日本的保溫現在是比較沒辦法因為我們地溫要先清掉才有辦法是生鮮果所以要加油啊30年前日本是我們統統的外銷市場啊結果現在一年才2000噸過去是一年26萬噸欸我們要提出書面報告你來提出齁好來來隆也報告衛福部齁是不是可以針對我們國內油的加工藥要加強K渣偏要使用的跟治療的藍作為來顧國民的健康保障你能做到嗎這K渣你怎麼做啊"},{"start":537.543,"end":547.678,"text":"對啊 這做得到啊那如果沒有 你也要去封祭啊因為做治療是你們在管嘛做人質是部長在管嘛所以你們做的合作 把這個做得好好不好好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":895,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時31分）主席，在場的委員先進、列席政府機關首長代表、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們農業部的杜次長、經濟部的江次長及經貿談判辦公室的顏副總談判代表。"],["江次長文若：是。委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好。先請教江次長。江次長，你看這次美國的關稅衝擊，對臺灣來講，我們現在是比較擔心出口賣不到美國，還是擔心美國進口很多到臺灣來？哪一個對我們衝擊比較大？"],["江次長文若：我覺得站在經濟部的立場，第一點的話，我們當然是希望我們的廠商都可以將最好的優質產品出口到全世界各地重要的市場。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是不是進口的衝擊影響可能比較大？"],["江次長文若：目前為止，因為川普課徵10%的關稅是對我們出口的部分，但是對於進口的部分，現在還是持續觀察中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們請顏副總談判代表。在這樣一個進出口的變化當中，請問：對臺灣跟美國的農業來講，是我們賣給美國的農產品多，還是美國賣給我們的農產品多？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：當然是美國賣給我們比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們進口的國家，美國是第一名嘛，對不對？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：美國占我們出口市場第一名，那美國只是我們進口的……"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們是美國進口國家的第八大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們是它的第八名，它是我們的第一名？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們是美國出口對象的第八名，但是它是我們出口對象的第一名。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對。但是在貿易值上面，它是順差的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，它是順差的。換言之，如果我跟劉建國，他是我唯一的好朋友，我是他排名第八的好朋友，你覺得誰比較擔心誰？我比較擔心嘛，美國是我最大的出口市場，我只是美國的第八出口市場。","好，現在換農業部了。來，次長，4月13日在高雄農改場，你不在，你知不知道部長陪院長去？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那天是跟毛豆業者在談，這段主席聽過，你可以休息。我們臺灣的毛豆一半是自用，一半是外銷，是不是這樣？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：外銷的部分，日本占七成，美國占三成，是不是這樣？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是美國的市場裡面吃毛豆吃最多的是不是中國的？"],["杜次長文珍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在中國跟美國在吵架，中國的毛豆沒辦法賣美國了，現在美國是不是很大的量？所以我們的部長說，臺灣的毛豆要趕快去搶美國的市場，對吧？"],["杜次長文珍：要顧牢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要搶美國的市場。"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是中國的毛豆沒辦法賣美國，就賣去哪裡？就賣去日本嘛。日本和中國是零關稅，但是臺灣銷日本是6%的關稅，所以我們現在在日本的毛豆市場是不是受到中國的威脅？是不是這樣？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說貿易的關稅差別，會造成原來美國的市場我們臺灣要趕快去占，但是我們在日本的市場要擔心中國來占，是不是這樣？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外一項，美國是不是出口很多黃豆？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：美國出口的黃豆，是不是將近一半去中國？現在中國會向美國買黃豆嗎？所以你看，像這樣子的話，美國黃豆會跌價嗎？有可能會跌價。"],["杜次長文珍：有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：美國的黃、小、玉跌價，對臺灣的農業有什麼衝擊？有什麼影響？"],["杜次長文珍：我們大部分的黃、小、玉都是從美國來的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以有「好康」到我們嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：如果降價就有好康到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。現在我們來看，世界在吃豬肉，進口豬肉跟出口豬肉的，出口豬肉的國家是不是這幾個國家？歐盟、美國、加拿大、巴西。豬肉買最多的是中國、日本、墨西哥和英國，有沒有臺灣？"],["杜次長文珍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！臺灣很小。現在臺灣吃的豬肉一成是進口的，六成是我們本土的。"],["杜次長文珍：九成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：九成啦！本土的豬肉99%是供應國內，不到1%是銷往外國，外銷2,000噸是銷往哪裡？"],["杜次長文珍：新加坡、菲律賓。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有銷往日本？"],["杜次長文珍：加工的有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：加工的有。過去在30年前，臺灣的豬肉出口超過目前100倍，是27萬噸，現在只剩2,000噸。","往下看。你可以看到，30年前日本進口的豬肉有四成來自臺灣，臺灣出口的豬肉有九成銷往日本，日本對臺灣的豬肉市場來說，重不重要？外銷。"],["杜次長文珍：很重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：重要。但是現在日本進口的豬肉，美國、加拿大和其他，差不多都占四分之一，對不對？有臺灣嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，所以臺灣的豬肉如果現在要出口，首先應該考慮的是不是日本的高端市場？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問臺灣的豬肉出口有什麼優勢？"],["杜次長文珍：我們的豬肉好吃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好吃不會腥嘛！有閹割過。通風養殖沒有臭味，但是飼料成本高，人工高，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們養豬的成本裡面哪一項最高？"],["杜次長文珍：黃、小、玉，飼料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，飼料費超過六成，但是我們的飼料比例裡面，黃、小、玉占多少？"],["杜次長文珍：差不多一半。"],["鍾委員佳濱：玉米超過五成，大豆粕將近兩成，還有三成是什麼？"],["杜次長文珍：其他油脂類。"],["鍾委員佳濱：三成的動物油，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以美國的黃、小、玉如果跌價，我們臺灣的飼料跌價，臺灣豬肉的競爭力是不是會增加？飼料費占最高嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以飼料如果跌價，我們臺灣豬肉的競爭力會提高嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：如果成本降低，我們就有競爭力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有競爭力嘛！好，剩下這一項，飼料油脂從哪裡來？你知不知道？"],["杜次長文珍：應該是我們國內自己有很多化製油脂的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：飼料用油，很多都是下腳料啦！殺豬的下腳料，還有豬雜。"],["杜次長文珍：下腳料去做化製。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是豬雜臺灣人有在吃，美國人有在吃豬雜嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：比較沒有，他們不會吃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你想想看，油的下腳料，是不是美國有很多？要考你的就是這個。我問過一些飼料廠，他說現在黃、小、玉跌價，飼料成本降低，對他們來說是好事，但是他們缺少什麼？他們缺少便宜的動物油，就是下腳料，所以你可以指示畜牧司去瞭解一下嗎？現在美國除了黃、小、玉跌價之外，他們的下腳料，因為他們出口很多豬肉嘛！他們賣豬肉給其他國家，有在賣下腳料嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：很少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有在賣豬雜嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：划不來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：少嘛！所以這個時候我相信他們的下腳料也很便宜。","來，下面我要說結論了，現在飼料的動物油進口，我們有進口黃豆油嘛！我們人吃的是一種，給飼料用的是一種，所以我們如果大量去採購，除了買美國的黃、小、玉之外，也向它買下腳料作為我們飼料用動物油，你覺得可以嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：不曾用過的東西，我們的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不曾用過，其實是你不知道，人家飼料廠有在用啦！"],["杜次長文珍：進口的嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：進口的。"],["杜次長文珍：我們來瞭解一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們去瞭解，如果有需要的話，可以來幫忙一下嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：好，我們來瞭解一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們來幫忙一下，讓臺灣的飼料除了黃、小、玉之外，其他有需要的也可以讓它的價格比較低，飼料跌價，豬農的成本降低，我們臺灣豬肉可以增加出口的競爭力，你同意嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：要總體來看。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要總體來看。來，邱部長一起來，說台語你也通。最後的結論，次長，是不是請農業部就降低飼料原料取得價格及提升臺灣豬肉日本市場占有率，你們來提出一個報告？"],["杜次長文珍：去日本的部分現在暫時沒有辦法，因為我們豬瘟要先去申請之後，生鮮豬肉才有辦法過去。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要加油啊！30年前日本是我們最大的外銷市場，結果現在一年才2,000噸，過去是一年27萬噸欸！"],["杜次長文珍：好，我們來提出書面報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們來提出。","來，農業部和衛福部，是不是可以針對國內油脂加工業來加強稽查？避免食用油和飼料用油混雜，來維護國民的健康，部長，你做得到嗎？這個稽查你們要做啊！"],["邱部長泰源：會，這個做得到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業部，你們也要去防止。"],["杜次長文珍：當然、當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為做飼料的是你們在管嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：是，飼料用歸飼料用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：做人吃的是部長在管嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們一起合作，把這個做好，好不好？"],["杜次長文珍：好。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160664","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e532de34b0552700c7aab39e7ea9331c7e840241ee498f319aee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:09:39 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我想最近不斷發生審判中的被告逃跑那除了最有名的中文字的棄保潛逃那前幾天就是中文字的翻版竹北健身房虐童案的葉轉浩也跑了 一模一樣翻版"},{"start":47.631,"end":53.643,"text":"所以今天要審查刑事訴訟法第116條之二關於羈押替代處分的修法"},{"start":55.322,"end":79.938,"text":"那基本上這兩個逃跑的都是非法潛逃的啦大概都是坐船出去的吧所以這跟護照出入境禁止大概是沒有直接相關啦但是我要講這個是因為啊這像這樣的案子都是法院沒有羈押沒有限制出境出海"},{"start":80.734,"end":94.799,"text":"也沒有裝設這個科技的設備監控導致人犯棄保潛逃這件事情非常嚴重也影響到司法院在人民當中雪上加霜的形象"},{"start":96.059,"end":118.514,"text":"那我現在要問你很具體的問題以中文字大家討論的沸沸揚揚中文字的科技監控原本是電子腳療為什麼突然改成電子手療為什麼它本來是電子腳療為什麼要刻意讓它改成電子手療這個電子手環"},{"start":122.984,"end":142.519,"text":"你知不知道報告委員 這個我們只可以從那個卷證裡面獲悉當然就是直接那個新證要法官最清楚那我們從那個卷裡頭看到是說那個因為被告主張說他身上有那個皮膚病啊那就說所以是那個身體有檢附證明嗎這一個部分的那個個案的資料我們他什麼時候改成電子手環"},{"start":152.113,"end":178.313,"text":"你們也不知道對那裁定可以改成電子手環的法官是誰法官是誰裁定可以從電子腳鐐改成電子手環看起來看起來像是戴了一個Apple Watch就是承辦法官對啊是誰啊裁定可以讓他從腳鐐變成手環蛤"},{"start":182.253,"end":207.311,"text":"你們不知道這個可以查得到他是113年3月19號改成電子手環改很久了對他很禮遇啊 大家都知道中文字連在立法院提案都可以拿錢啊量身定制的修法 沸沸揚揚的更不要講你們這次的審判長跟你們的陳審法官 高院的"},{"start":213.226,"end":221.549,"text":"你們都還並不是非常清楚喔你們裡面誰被買了 誰有問題到現在你們都還沒有很嚴肅的去查不覺得這事情該很嚴肅的面對嗎每一個細節 哪一個陳審法官才定這樣子那個 包委員這邊的那個資料齁那個換成那個手環的是原來的那個何怡婷就是原來做出實體判決的"},{"start":240.057,"end":260.779,"text":"那後來因為這個送命法官他因為離職誰啊叫什麼名字啊他去當律師了沒關係啊誰啊叫什麼名字大家要問責欸不是趕快從法官退休然後改當律師就可以了那跟之後就是說沒有再延續的何怡婷是不同的何怡婷"},{"start":261.46,"end":282.231,"text":"我現在問你,當初裁定改成電子手環,我不認為他直接就有可能收賄這種問題啊但是就是說,你裁定了這個,你要有正當性,你要有足夠說服大家,攤在陽光上讓大家相信的這個證明啊你有這個權利,你也負相當的責任啊,被問責啊"},{"start":284.977,"end":312.068,"text":"包括委員就那個就是科控的就那個手跟腳它兩個的效力其實是一樣的效力都是一樣哪一種比較不利於被告的逃脫我們目前有的那個實證上來看就是從有那個修法之後可以用那個用可以科控就是說你不管是手或者是那個腳只要是有用的到現在都還沒有那個脫逃的所以它是一個有效的"},{"start":312.788,"end":331.944,"text":"所以腳跟手 你在說什麼 有用的都沒有脫逃的曾經有一個 曾經兩度靠近海邊對 有用的都還沒有發現脫逃現在脫逃的就是你們沒有做成裁定直接審理單上改 然後就放人了"},{"start":333.08,"end":360.819,"text":"包括周文智包括這個葉展浩那個都是你們陳審法官你們的法院都罔顧檢察官檢察署都認為應該要繼續監控都是法院放人的放人頭走出去的你講的真是太正確了對不對你說效果都一樣有效我告訴你對周文智來講戴一個Apple Watch"},{"start":362.11,"end":372.412,"text":"感覺比較不引人注目啦 就像一個Apple Watch嘛 對不對如果都一樣有效 幹嘛要腳的變手 要有兩種我現在講說啊 大家一般普遍認為電子手環看起來不像電子監控 很容易隱藏啦"},{"start":389.341,"end":397.607,"text":"所以你說那個卷宗你們看得到嘛當初這個法官裁定讓他改成電子手環他上面怎麼寫摩擦換布摩擦換布每一個電子腳鐐都在摩擦換布他強制處分當然有他的目的性難道他讓你很舒服嗎他上面寫摩擦換處有舉證有證明嗎"},{"start":420.151,"end":424.022,"text":"有嗎?有破皮的照片嗎?有醫生開具的讓而不適當的證明嗎?"},{"start":427.817,"end":451.112,"text":"這裡沒有原始的那個檔案我們這裡只有看到形式上的一些資料他的中文志為例啦他113年10月17號到期的科技監控然後在10月17號到期在10月9號審理庭上已經檢察官很明白的講有繼續實施科技設備監控的必要然後呢然後呢"},{"start":454.936,"end":472.535,"text":"就很奇怪啦11號上班日法官馬上要書記官聯絡檢方的助理詢問對於增加保證金2000萬的意見在書記官回覆檢察官不在時又在14號指示書記官聯繫檢察官既然已經當成"},{"start":476.579,"end":498.883,"text":"都已經當庭說有必要開庭的時候就說有必要繼續監控為什麼你們的法官還要這麼鍥而不捨一問再問又問當時在開庭的時候人家就講得一清二楚了一直打電話可不可以不監控暗示可不可以增加2000萬就不監控"},{"start":503.341,"end":509.187,"text":"那如果他這麼的他這麼的跟檢方不同意見為什麼不繼續開庭然後載明在筆錄裡面"},{"start":512.893,"end":538.992,"text":"所以我現在問你一件事情就是法官就強制處分用電話方式去徵詢意見的情形是很普遍嗎很普遍嗎還是葉展浩的例子葉展浩的例子是法院沒有通知檢察官到庭沒有要求檢察官表達意見進行裁定"},{"start":541.554,"end":561.961,"text":"罔顧檢方在偵查階段就明確的主張要申請羈押人家檢察官一路走來都說認為有申請羈押的必要然後你們也不通知檢察官要來開庭然後也不詢問他們的意見就進行裁定"},{"start":563.683,"end":575.423,"text":"免電子監控免羈押然後就跑了然後你們還可以檢方跟院方互推皮球你們的院方院方怎麼說我想看看"},{"start":576.232,"end":603.795,"text":"院方對於以審當日進行裁定釋放被告即便沒有通知檢察官這個到場了但是呢 羈押替代處分已經對外宣示 媒體未報導同案被告在準備程序前檢察官自然就會知道所以沒有因為裁定未送達無從行使變告救濟的狀況 OK好啦"},{"start":605.779,"end":630.913,"text":"這個檢方院方這樣子兩邊這樣子這個是你們的慣例是不是我現在問你啊電話用電話去這個徵詢意見很普遍嗎然後認為說我新聞有報導了你檢察官就不用裁定也不用通知來開庭你自然就明白自然就知道這是習慣嗎法院的習慣嗎現在法院都這麼的方便這麼便宜行事嗎"},{"start":632.745,"end":647.904,"text":"好 副秘書長有一些的訊問是法律規定是一定要做的譬如說像是那個羈押我不談這個 我現在是講說應該做成強制處分 正常程序要開庭"},{"start":649.005,"end":667.592,"text":"就不開庭然後用電話詢問這是你們便宜行事方便你們法院的大改革是不是啊法定要開庭的一定會開庭那至於說開完庭人家開庭就跟你講有羈押的必要開完庭還用電話一直不斷的問還做假的這個這個叫什麼這個審理單內容上還造假造假修改內容造假"},{"start":678.506,"end":705.063,"text":"我現在問你電話徵詢的方式現在是你們便宜形式的替代中文字這一件他在12月9號開庭開庭本來就是一個正常的去詢問兩照的那個意見人家就說有繼續電子監控的科技監控的必要啊當然就是說法院端跟地檢署或是當事人有時候有一些聯繫的事情譬如說像是庭期或是什麼開庭就講有必要了"},{"start":705.723,"end":714.304,"text":"你們的法官真的是鍥而不捨非要問到他說非要製造造假到時候他沒意見欸"},{"start":716.462,"end":736.133,"text":"委員那至於說這個何怡婷跟承辦法官他們有關於他們這些程序進行跟最後做了這個決定這個是他們判斷餘地我們司法行政真的無從置諱這只是判斷的餘地你有沒有搞錯啊你們移送懲戒法院了餒你們已經移送懲戒法院了餒"},{"start":737.514,"end":753.546,"text":"有關於他那個程序文本案最離譜的地方不是電話詢問欸要問的話也是法官可以直接打電話去問檢察官你們連這個都不用現在是法官的書記官打電話去問檢察官的書記官然後出現法院抽換電話記錄然後沒有正式裁定推卸責任給書記官還書記官公會出來抗議你們法院"},{"start":766.296,"end":794.569,"text":"司法院然後發生你們審理單沒有正式裁定審理單上面不斷的增補內容修改電話紀錄修改那個內容審理單上改內容電話紀錄AB版AB版強制處分的事情是這麼隨便嗎AB版你們沒有移送法辦不是移送懲罰法院喔他這樣子有沒有偽造公文書"},{"start":796.427,"end":822.887,"text":"公務員自己登載不實不是送懲戒法院你們內部的懲戒喔我講的是刑法213條公務員登載不實故意有沒有移送法辦涉及犯罪部分現在目前那個檢察署也都有在查了他們有案件在查了你們沒有自己主動移送這才是大問題"},{"start":824.738,"end":847.972,"text":"蛤 強制處分可以這樣子兒戲嗎跟委員報告就是說有關於他們那個電話記錄的那個結果他們有抽換本身結果程式上呢就是這個絕對是錯誤的他違反程序程序上他違反了那個刑事訴訟法第40條我現在講的是那也不是你們那不是你們移送嗎"},{"start":849.213,"end":867.712,"text":"是檢方自己 主動偵探不是 我跟委員報告 就是說我們司法院我們可以行政調查啦我們都可以行政調查就是說我們調查錯行政調查我先這樣子開了一個記者會委員我可以講完我可以講完 好我們不是沒有注意到有那個犯罪的這個部分那但是我們有權責的問題 就是說"},{"start":870.134,"end":883.264,"text":"第一個就是我們查出來他有這個違反了那個40條就是你把這個東西抽換掉了嘛那我們也查出來就是說他們之間確實不是抽換啦 篡改啦 不斷的修改啦就是說他們確實呢這兩個書記官之間呢他是有電話通聯的這個我知道了我們都講清楚了我們這個事情是第一次揭露這個弊案被揭發以前"},{"start":898.155,"end":914.395,"text":"上面是 這個審理單上面寫的不是這樣子他寫說增加兩千萬的這個保證金然後上面也偽造了一個說 沒意見尊重你們軍院審酌 請自行審酌"},{"start":917.079,"end":945.911,"text":"然後大家都發現他跑了然後媒體報導了然後 陳審法官覺得 這樣子的審理單喔這些文字內容可能他會自己會涉及不法可能不行啊所以才指示書記官再加一句啦增加這個兩千萬增加兩千萬的加保然後科技可不可以不用再 不延長科技監控"},{"start":947.426,"end":971.956,"text":"不延長科技偵控然後如果再對上你們偽造了沒意見請軍院審酌這樣就竄得起來了而且是事發之後才竄改的事發之後才竄改的所以我在講說這是一個單一個案還是你們自己院裡面真的是知識體大你整個法院的系統螺絲吊滿地不打緊啊人模不彰啊"},{"start":975.049,"end":1002.081,"text":"沒有正式裁定 那請問你 你們怎麼通知中文字增加保證金的 也是電話打電話打電話通知律師喔 劣勢裁定 沒有正式裁定依據裡頭那個資料是打電話打電話喔 那他打電話就要來交了喔然後為什麼他願意交這兩千萬他就是花兩千萬買一個不用電子手環就是準備要跑路了啊 你講有裝的人沒有一個跑得掉的"},{"start":1002.998,"end":1019.491,"text":"花兩千萬買一個可以逃跑法院內部有人看不下去了都出來爆料許多的跡象都顯示這個跟一般法官處理的程序常情不符"},{"start":1020.897,"end":1046.165,"text":"為什麼要從電子教療改成手環那檢察官建議一定要延長科技監控他還鍥而不捨一定非要問到電話詢問問到造假審理單上面造假最後連裁定都沒有還偷偷摸摸聯絡科控中心拆除電子手環"},{"start":1049.368,"end":1068.835,"text":"這個問題很大喔 不是單一喔還有葉展浩 這個你們內部 司法院內部啊真的是問題很大 絕對不是單一個案那我現在再問你一個 副秘書長本案受命法官是不是曾經擔任過律師是大家都 有媒體有報導過嘛"},{"start":1070.199,"end":1084.71,"text":"她是不是擔任過 國安密帳關鍵的被告 劉冠軍的這個辯護律師報告委員 這個資訊我是從報紙 從新聞媒體揭露之後才知道對 媒體爆料你才知道來"},{"start":1087.871,"end":1111.928,"text":"劉冠軍25年前涉貪將近2億,撿動發動搜索以前比撿掉還要早一步,就從新竹、南寮非法偷渡中國逃了兩天以後,你們現在的陳永松法官過去的陳永松律師,不只代替劉冠軍去國安局請假"},{"start":1113.449,"end":1124.627,"text":"還幫跑掉 已經跑掉的劉冠軍申請提前退伍還製造了一個劉冠軍還在台灣的假象重點來不只是這個 媒體沒有報導的"},{"start":1126.229,"end":1144.198,"text":"由冠軍偷渡的當天 陳永松法官 當時的陳永松律師他的手機訊號也被發現 也在恰巧的出現在新竹基地台他偷跑的那個地方的基地台"},{"start":1150.839,"end":1165.704,"text":"涉嫌掩護劉冠軍潛逃司法院對這個事情有掌握嗎這個是他擔任法官之前的事件對啦 但東涌事發了你們也移送懲戒法院啊"},{"start":1167.084,"end":1188.103,"text":"週刊媒體也報導他曾經是劉冠軍的辯護律師還幫劉冠軍掩護假裝他還在國內這樣子的惡紀錄你們都不用再去追還發現劉冠軍偷跑的時候他可能跟他在一起他的手機號碼就是那個偷跑的地點的手機基地台"},{"start":1189.448,"end":1203.299,"text":"他可能連掩護偷跑他都有參與天底下有這麼重大的巧合嗎重大的要犯棄保潛逃都跟你們陳永松法官有關"},{"start":1204.78,"end":1229.056,"text":"你們說你們做調查你們調查那個司法院只能就現行的法官他在法官執行職務的時候的為私行為做監督不可能一個人他們把法官之前的時候這個我都知道好你不用講為私行為做監督為私行為我現在問你最高法院有時候哪一天要宣判會事先通知當事人嗎"},{"start":1230.077,"end":1252.237,"text":"不會對最高法院什麼時候要駁回上訴也沒有人會知道是張文智卻能在最高法院他知道要定宴了他在駁回上訴的同一天他知道他知道所以立刻掌握到消息立刻逃亡這沒有內鬼通風報信嗎蛤"},{"start":1260.916,"end":1283.511,"text":"這個這個部分那個最高法院他有就是有接觸過這個案件所有的這一些那個同仁全部都清查過了那個最高法院這個部分並沒有洩密我如果要做壞事我還拿一支跟你們報備過的手機號碼給你清查嗎跟對方聯絡跟壞人聯絡嗎我是要跟你講喔"},{"start":1289.059,"end":1313.09,"text":"不是一件然後這個陳永松陳永松法官這一種行為對你們未來就法官考核上你們有什麼樣的建議你覺得有什麼地方可以改革的你們多元禁用啊各種各式各樣的人都會來啊那你不覺得你們在考核上面有沒有什麼地方制度面應該精進的有沒有"},{"start":1316.195,"end":1342.687,"text":"就是收集資訊的部分還必須做的證明收集資訊你們這麼弱你們是跟我們立委一樣喔都還要請求給我資訊沒有資訊就什麼都沒有喔立法立法不用修法立法你對人家收集人家個資資訊什麼相當的吊唁你需不需要法律工具法律保留原則需不需要你們有任何意見嗎都沒有覺得說需要改革的地方嗎"},{"start":1344.031,"end":1371.727,"text":"食物面都沒有去需要再增強去防避的嗎你看你們這種發光你說叫人家衝刑司法哪有可能主委 要不要主席沒有啦 我是跟你拜託啦在野黨喔 司法院喔 今天有議長今天有秘書長不要在這裡呆呆呆這個喔 權責不相符我們在這裡問他 他也沒辦法 他也沒辦法付帳 他也呆了"},{"start":1374.298,"end":1397.754,"text":"是對啊 所以你拖在那裡 我說大法官跟院長這個人事上是不是能夠脫鉤處理啊對不對這樣下去我不曉得我們要問責誰然後誰能夠做決定誰能夠真正的帶領整個司法院進行改革你要他改革都沒大人啊 出來都沒大人啊 是要叫誰啊你可以嗎 你可以帶領改革嗎"},{"start":1404.184,"end":1416.226,"text":"副秘書長代理秘書長你覺得你有辦法嗎包委員本人並沒有代理秘書長本人是以副秘書長的職務來接受備詢對啦那就你的"},{"start":1417.967,"end":1446.766,"text":"就妳的立場 妳覺得這個改革上 妳有辦法去有這個正當性 然後有這個其實就這個制度的完善 還有說就那個就是減輕大家那個負擔 像我們比較迫切的那個問題其實司法院都持續一直在做減輕負擔 給錢給人 這個大家都同意啦 不要講給你們需要的 你們想要的 通通都給你們人民想要的 司法改革需要的 你們要給我們啊"},{"start":1448.908,"end":1461.381,"text":"是對啦 重點是在這裡啦今天是很不想要講這樣的這麼具體可是你們陳永松不是只有懲戒法院啦涉及違法當然還在調查啊對不對 這已經太離譜就還有葉展浩 也這樣"},{"start":1464.924,"end":1480.237,"text":"你們內部行政管理你們的程序面的管理都難道沒有可以值得檢討之處嗎你們的職務監督都只有在鬥爭的時候才有連基隆法院都搞成沸沸揚揚的嗎你的職務監督職務監督啊"},{"start":1483.223,"end":1505.402,"text":"你們具體一點然後作為這個行政改革上的這個指標你們要一個上面要有一個政策導 指引啊然後做 大家各個法院要去改革啊職務監督要具體一點不要抽象 不要讓權力濫用但如果你很具體的話那他們才能夠做得出來啊是對不對好啦 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":829,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時9分）謝謝召委，請副秘書長。"],["主席：請副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：副秘書長，我想最近不斷發生審判中的被告逃跑，除了最有名的鍾文智棄保潛逃，前幾天就是鍾文智的翻版，竹北健身房虐童案的葉展皓也跑了，一模一樣翻版，所以今天要審查刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二關於羈押替代處分的修法，基本上，這兩個逃跑的都是非法潛逃，大概都是坐船出去的吧，所以跟護照、出入境禁止大概沒有直接相關，但我要講這個是因為像這樣的案子都是法院沒有羈押、沒有限制出境出海、也沒有裝設科技的設備監控，導致人犯棄保潛逃，這件事情非常嚴重，也影響到司法院在人民心中雪上加霜的形象。我現在要很具體的問你，鍾文智大家討論得沸沸揚揚，鍾文智的科技監控原本是電子腳鐐，為什麼突然改成電子手鐐？為什麼？他本來是電子腳鐐，為什麼要刻意讓他改成電子手環？你知不知道？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我們只可以從卷證裡面獲悉，當然，直接的心證要法官最清楚，我們從卷裡頭看到因為被告主張他身上有皮膚病。"],["林委員淑芬：有檢附證明嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個個案的資料我們……"],["林委員淑芬：他什麼時候改成電子手環？你們也不知道？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["林委員淑芬：裁定可以改成電子手環的法官是誰？裁定可以從電子腳鐐改成電子手環，看起來像是戴了一個Apple Watch。"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是承辦法官。"],["林委員淑芬：是誰啊！裁定可以讓他從腳鐐變成手環，你們不知道？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個可以查得到。"],["林委員淑芬：他是113年3月19日改成電子手環，改很久了，對他很禮遇啊！大家都知道鍾文智，連在立法院提案都可以拿錢、量身訂製的修法，沸沸揚揚的，更不要講你們這次高院的審判長和承審法官，你們都還不是非常清楚？你們裡面誰被買了？誰有問題？到現在你們都還沒有很嚴肅的去查，不覺得這件事情該很嚴肅的去面對嗎？每一個細節、哪一個承審法官裁定這樣。"],["王副秘書長梅英：根據這邊的資料，換成手環的是原來的那一個合議庭，就是原來作出實體判決的，後來因為受命法官離職……"],["林委員淑芬：誰啊！叫什麼名字啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：他去當律師了。"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係啊！誰啊！叫什麼名字！大家要問責耶！不是趕快從法官退休，然後改當律師就可以了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：那個跟之後沒有再延續的合議庭是不同的合議庭。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你當初裁定改成電子手環，我不認為他直接就有可能收賄的問題，但是你裁定了這個要有正當性，你要有足夠說服大家、攤在陽光下讓大家相信的證明，你有這個權力，也要負相當的責任、被問責啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：科控的腳和手兩個效力其實是一樣的。"],["林委員淑芬：效力都一樣，哪一種比較不利於被告的逃脫？"],["王副秘書長梅英：從目前的實證來看，從修法之後可以用科控，不管是手或腳，只要是有用的，到現在都還沒有脫逃的，所以它是一個有效的。"],["林委員淑芬：你說什麼？有用的都沒有脫逃的？曾經有一個兩度靠近海邊，對！有用的都不會、都還沒有發現脫逃，現在脫逃了就是你們沒有作成裁定，直接審理單上改，然後放人了，包括鍾文智、葉展皓，都是你們承審法官、你們的法院罔顧檢察官、檢察署認為應該要繼續監控，都是法院放人、放他們脫逃出去的！你講的真是太正確了，你說效果都一樣有效，我告訴你，對鍾文智來講，戴一個Apple Watch感覺比較不引人注目啦！就像一個Apple Watch，對不對？如果都一樣有效，幹嘛要有手腳兩種？大家一般普遍認為電子手環看起來不像電子監控，很容易隱藏，你說卷宗你們看得到，當初法官裁定讓他改成電子手環，他上面怎麼寫？摩擦患部？每一個戴電子腳鐐都嘛在摩擦患部，強制處分當然有其目的性，難道還要讓你很舒服嗎？他上面寫摩擦患部有舉證、有證明嗎？有嗎？有破皮的照片嗎？有醫生開具的任何不適當的證明嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這裡沒有原始的檔案，這裡只有看到一些形式上的資料。"],["林委員淑芬：以鍾文智為例，他的科技監控113年10月17日到期，在10月9日審理庭上檢察官已經很明白的講有繼續實施科技設備監控的必要，11日上班日法官馬上要書記官聯絡檢方的助理，詢問對於增加保證金2,000萬元的意見，在書記官回復檢察官不在時，又在14日指示書記官聯繫，檢察官既然已經當庭說有必要繼續監控，為什麼你們的法官還要這麼鍥而不捨、一問再問又問？當時在開庭的時候，人家就講得一清二楚了，一直打電話問可不可以不監控、暗示可不可以增加2,000萬元保證金就不監控，如果他和檢方意見這麼不同，為什麼不繼續開庭，然後載明在筆錄裡面？所以我現在問你一件事情，法官就強制處分用電話方式徵詢意見的情形是很普遍嗎？還是葉展皓的例子，葉展皓的例子是法院沒有通知檢察官到庭，沒有要求檢察官表達意見逕行裁定，罔顧檢方在偵查階段就明確的主張要聲請羈押，人家檢察官一路走來都認為有聲請羈押的必要，你們也不通知檢察官開庭，也不詢問他們的意見就逕行裁定免電子監控、免羈押，然後就跑了，然後還可以檢方和院方互推皮球。院方怎麼說？院方對於移審當日逕行裁定釋放被告，即便沒有通知檢察官到場，但是羈押替代處分已經對外宣示，媒體會報導，同案被告在準備程序前，檢察官自然就會知道，所以沒有因為裁定未送達無從行使抗告救濟的狀況。檢方、院方兩邊這樣子，這是你們的慣例，是不是？我現在問你啊！用電話去徵詢意見很普遍嗎？然後認為新聞有報導了，檢察官就不用裁定，也不用通知來開庭，你自然就明白、自然就知道，這是習慣嗎？法院的習慣嗎？現在法院都這麼方便、這麼便宜行事嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有一些訊問是法律規定一定要做的，例如羈押。"],["林委員淑芬：我不談這個，我現在講的是應該作成強制處分，正常程序要開庭，結果不開庭，然後用電話詢問，這是你們便宜行事的方便？你們法院的大改革，是不是？"],["王副秘書長梅英：法定要開庭的一定會開庭，至於……"],["林委員淑芬：人家開庭就跟你講有羈押的必要，開完庭還用電話一直不斷的問，審理單內容還造假、修改內容。我現在問你，電話徵詢的方式是你們便宜行事的替代？"],["王副秘書長梅英：鍾文智這一件在12月9日開庭，開庭本來就是一個正常的去詢問兩造的意見。"],["林委員淑芬：人家就說有繼續電子科技監控的必要。"],["王副秘書長梅英：法院端跟地檢署或者當事人有時候有一些聯繫的事情，例如像庭期。"],["林委員淑芬：開庭就講有必要了，你們的法官真的是鍥而不捨非要問到他、非要造假到他沒意見。"],["王副秘書長梅英：至於合議庭和承辦法官他們有關於程序進行和最後做了這個決定是他們的判斷餘地，我們司法行政真的無從置喙。"],["林委員淑芬：只是判斷的餘地？你有沒有搞錯，你們已經移送懲戒法院了耶！"],["王副秘書長梅英：有關於程序……"],["林委員淑芬：本案最離譜的地方不是電話詢問，要問的話也是法官可以直接打電話去問檢察官，你們連這個都不用，現在是法官的書記官打電話去問檢察官的書記官，然後出現法院抽換電話紀錄，沒有正式裁定，推卸責任給書記官，書記官公會還出來抗議你們司法院，然後發生審理單沒有正式裁定，審理單上面不斷的增補內容，講得好聽是修改電話紀錄內容，審理單上改內容，電話紀錄AB版，強制處分的事情是這麼隨便嗎？AB版你們沒有移送法辦，不是移送懲戒法院，他這樣有沒有偽造公文書？關於公務員自己登載不實，不是送懲戒法院、你們內部的懲戒喔！我講的是刑法第二百十三條公務員故意登載不實，有沒有移送法辦？"],["王副秘書長梅英：涉及犯罪部分，目前檢察署都有在查了。"],["林委員淑芬：你們沒有自己主動移送這才是大問題，強制處分可以這樣兒戲嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，有關於電話紀錄抽換本身在程式上絕對是錯誤的，程序上違反了刑事訴訟法第四十條。"],["林委員淑芬：那不是你們移送，是檢方自己主動偵辦。"],["王副秘書長梅英：不是。我跟委員報告，我們司法院可以行政調查的，我們都可以行政調查，就是說，我們調查……"],["林委員淑芬：行政調查，我開了一個記者會……"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，可不可以讓我講完？委員，我可不可以講完，我可不可以講完？"],["林委員淑芬：好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們不是沒有注意到有犯罪的部分，但是我們有權責的問題，就是說，第一個就是我們查出來他違反了第四十條，就是把這個東西抽換掉了，我們也查出來，他們之間確實……"],["林委員淑芬：不是抽換，是竄改，不斷地修改。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。就是說，這兩個書記官之間確實有電話通聯的。"],["林委員淑芬：這個我知道，新聞稿都講清楚了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有，我們這一個事情是第一次揭露。"],["林委員淑芬：這個弊案被揭發以前，這個審理單上寫的不是這樣子，寫說增加2,000萬的保證金，然後上面也偽造了一個結果說：沒意見，尊重你們，請鈞院審酌。然後大家都發現他跑了，然後媒體報導了，然後承審法官覺得這樣子的審理單文字內容可能會讓他自己涉及不法、可能不行，所以才指示書記官再加一句，增加2,000萬的加保，不延長科技監控，然後如果再對上你們偽造的「沒意見，請鈞院審酌」等文字，這樣就串得起來了，而且這是事發之後才竄改的，事發之後才竄改的，所以我在講說這是一個單一個案，還是你們自己院裡面真的是茲事體大，你整個法院的系統螺絲掉滿地不打緊，人謀不臧啊！沒有正式裁定，那請問你，你們怎麼通知鍾文智增加保證金的？也是打電話通知律師，用略式裁定，沒有正式裁定？"],["王副秘書長梅英：依卷裡頭那個資料，是打電話。"],["林委員淑芬：打電話啊？那大家打電話就要來交了喔？為什麼他願意交這2,000萬？他就是花2,000萬買一個不用電子手環，就是準備要跑路了啊。你講有裝的人沒有一個跑不掉的，花2,000萬買一個可以逃跑，法院內部有人看不下去啦，都出來爆料。許多的跡象都顯示，這個跟一般法官處理的程序、常情不符，為什麼要從電子腳鐐……"],["王副秘書長梅英：所以我們主動發新聞稿說要追究。"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼要從電子腳鐐改成手環？檢察官建議一定要延長科技監控，他還鍥而不捨，一定非要打電話詢問，問到造假，審理單上面造假，最後連裁定都沒有，還偷偷摸摸聯絡科控中心拆除電子手環。這個問題很大喔，不是單一喔，還有葉展皓，這個你們司法院內部真的是問題很大，絕對不是單一個案。","那我現在再問你一個問題，副秘書長，本案受命法官是不是曾經擔任過律師？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員淑芬：媒體報導過嗎？他是不是擔任過國安密帳案關鍵被告劉冠軍的辯護律師？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這個資訊我是從新聞媒體報導之後才知道。"],["林委員淑芬：對，媒體爆料你才知道。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員淑芬：來，劉冠軍25年前涉貪將近2億，檢調發動搜索以前，他比檢調還要早一步就從新竹南寮非法偷渡中國，逃了兩天以後，你們現在的陳勇松法官、過去的陳勇松律師不只代替劉冠軍去國安局請假，還幫已經跑掉的劉冠軍申請提前退伍，製造了一個劉冠軍還在臺灣的假象，重點還不只是這個，關於媒體沒有報導的，劉冠軍偷渡的當天，陳勇松法官、當時的陳勇松律師的手機訊號也被發現恰巧出現在新竹基地台──他偷跑的那個地方的基地台，涉嫌掩護劉冠軍潛逃，司法院對這個事情有掌握嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個是他擔任法官之前的事件。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦。但東窗事發了，你們也移送懲戒法院了，週刊媒體也報導他曾經是劉冠軍的辯護律師，還幫劉冠軍掩護，假裝他還在國內，這樣子的惡紀錄你們都不用再去追，發現劉冠軍偷跑的時候他可能跟他在一起，他的手機號碼就是在那個偷跑地點的手機基地台，他可能連掩護、偷跑都有參與，天底下有這麼重大的巧合嗎？重大的要犯棄保潛逃都跟你們陳勇松法官有關，你們說你們做調查，你們調查……"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，司法院只能就現行的法官在法官執行職務時的違失行為做監督，不可能一個人在沒當法官之前的時候……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，我都知道，這個我都知道，好，你不用講，對違失行為。我現在問你，最高法院知道哪一天要宣判會事先通知當事人嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：不會。"],["林委員淑芬：對。最高法院什麼時候要駁回上訴也沒有人會知道。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員淑芬：鍾文智卻能知道最高法院要定讞了，他在駁回上訴的同一天，因為他知道，所以立刻掌握到消息就立刻逃亡，這沒有內鬼通風報信嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分最高法院有對接觸過這個案件的所有同仁全部都清查過了，最高法院在這個部分並沒有洩密。"],["林委員淑芬：我如果要做壞事，我還拿一支跟你們報備過的手機號碼跟對方聯絡、跟壞人聯絡嗎？我是要跟你講，不是一件，然後陳勇松法官這一種行為對未來的法官考核上，你們有什麼樣的建議？你覺得有什麼地方可以改革的？你們多元進用，各種各式各樣的人都會來，那你不覺得你們在考核上面有沒有什麼地方在制度面應該精進的？有沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是蒐集資訊的部分還必須做得更……"],["林委員淑芬：蒐集資訊？你們這麼弱喔？你們是跟我們立委一樣喔？都還要請求給資訊，沒有資訊就什麼都沒有喔？立法，立法，不用修法，立法！你對人家蒐集個資資訊或是調閱，你需不需要法律工具？法律保留原則需不需要？你們有任何意見嗎？都沒有覺得說需要改革的地方嗎？實務面都沒有需要再增強去防弊的嗎？你看你們這種法官，你要怎麼叫人相信司法？怎麼可能？主席，我是拜託你們在野黨，司法院要趕快有院長、趕快有秘書長，不要在這裡代、代、代，權責不相符，我們在這裡問他，他也沒辦法，他也沒辦法負責，他也是代的。"],["主席：是。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊。所以你拖在那裡，我說大法官跟院長這個人事上是不是能夠脫鉤處理啊？對不對？這樣下去我不曉得我們要問責誰，然後誰能夠做決定？誰能夠真正帶領整個司法院進行改革？你要改革，都沒有大人了，家裡都沒大人了，是要叫誰啊？你可以嗎？你可以帶領改革嗎？你副秘書長代理秘書長，你覺得你有辦法嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，本人並沒有代理秘書長。"],["林委員淑芬：抱歉。"],["王副秘書長梅英：本人是以副秘書長的職務來接受備詢。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦。那就你的立場，你覺得就改革上你有辦法具正當性，然後有這個……"],["王副秘書長梅英：其實就這個制度的完善，還有減輕大家的負擔，也就是現在我們比較迫切的那個問題，其實司法院都持續一直在做。"],["林委員淑芬：減輕負擔，給錢、給人，這個大家都同意啊，不要講。給你們需要的，你們想要的統統都給你們；人民想要的，司法改革需要的，你們要給我們啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦。重點是在這裡啦。今天雖然不想要講這麼具體，可是你們陳勇松不是只有懲戒法院，涉及違法當然還是要調查，對不對？這已經太離譜了，結果還有個葉展皓也是這樣。你們內部的行政管理、你們程序面的管理難道沒有可以值得檢討之處嗎？你們的職務監督都只有在鬥爭的時候才有，連基隆法院都要搞得沸沸揚揚的嗎？你們的職務監督具體一點，然後作為行政改革上的指標，你們上面要有一個政策的指引，然後各個法院要去改革啊。職務監督要具體一點，不要抽象，不要讓權力濫用，如果你很具體的話，那他們才能夠做得出來啊，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦。謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來，我們請張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","討論事項所列議案報告及詢答完畢，決議：另定期繼續審查。","本次會議進行到此結束，現在散會。謝謝大家。","散會（12時35分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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謝謝 謝謝委員我請署長"},{"start":76.064,"end":92.595,"text":"謝謝委員非常精準的提問有關於國光生技的部分呢第一個是我們昨天七點知道的消息幾點昨天早上七點的時候立刻就在昨天就派人去國光生技做查核馬上我們就出發了"},{"start":93.596,"end":119.296,"text":"那對於為什麼在國光沒有立即去通報這件事情因為在GMP沒有涉及產品那國光他們是這麼樣子的解釋但是我們認為一樣GMP沒有涉及產品對他沒有涉及產品的部分所以他就說是沒有通報可是我們去的時候我們不是這樣子認為的因此我們有開出缺失這邊特別跟委員做進一步報告"},{"start":120.357,"end":148.907,"text":"對 所以針對國光生技講的這句話他不在他這個事發地點不在GMP的規範裡面正確嗎我們其實我們就直接開出了缺失了跟委員做進入報告你要回應我啊對 已經我們有開出了他的缺失他這樣子是不符合的是不符合嘛所以國光生技是到現在還在騙還是怎樣為什麼講出這樣的話我想這個藥廠裡面難道不包含他所謂的實驗區不包含他的實驗室不包含他的研發區嗎"},{"start":150.646,"end":174.876,"text":"我想他們的認定上面呢跟我們去查查的過程當中呢其實是有出入的我們認為我們他必須要包含的相關的查案雖然說他這個在二樓的研發的獨立區域跟我們的上市產品的實驗區在B1跟一樓呢是分開來的是實體上面是區隔的所以對於所有的產品是沒有有風險的"},{"start":176.457,"end":193.843,"text":"不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一樓或是二樓 不管它一�"},{"start":205.103,"end":233.961,"text":"吹哨者的報紙是說 去年的7月台風馬台中市24、25就已經停班停課也因此國防升級的員工就便於形勢直接把實驗室放在實驗室中兩天重新上班之後發現老鼠屎尿滲出 瘤痰滿桌事後又拖了三天才一種也就是說這些老鼠在實驗室待了五天不僅如此 連莊白老鼠的紙箱被屎尿濺濕這種應該立即丟棄的東西竟然還堆在實驗室好多天"},{"start":234.827,"end":249.125,"text":"部長跟署長可以看拖影片那這個實驗室裡面有檢測核酸與DNA濃度的精密儀器製冰器和溫水槽加上有鹽酸、硫酸、紅毛磷就連研發人員的實驗跑也通通暴露在污染中對不對"},{"start":250.627,"end":272.462,"text":"報告委員第一個部分呢有關於這個實驗室的部分其實在26號正式上班就已經移走了這部分說進一步說明那整個實驗室在去年113年的8月6號呢也遷移到南投那本市查查呢也確認了這個空間呢這種8月6號的時候我們就不要再談嘛好不好我們就談這個事發的當時的時間才準確嘛你連事後的傾銷到底有沒有落實"},{"start":278.826,"end":303.865,"text":"其實也沒有知道嘛 也不知道有進一步的有清消 這個紀錄上面你沒有指出這是他缺失之一嗎對啊 研發部門環境消毒 紀錄也不完整啊報告外務員 他們有做清消 只是我們覺得他的紀錄不夠完整記錄不夠完整嘛 所以還是提出了一些糾正另外這個介紹者說 二樓實驗室二樓廁所是瀰漫到整個樓梯間喔而樓下一樓就是品管的檢驗區"},{"start":305.146,"end":332.667,"text":"那另外 雖然評管檢驗區是獨立的空調空間啦齁但除此之外 這整棟大樓空調系統也是相通這些鼠毛衣會在大樓流竄所有工作人員在這個工作環境下在工作所以即便評管區有區隔這樣的環境你們會不會要幫國光掛保證我們沒有掛保證 因為跟委員這邊報告因為整個的空調系統是獨立的啦"},{"start":333.067,"end":358.524,"text":"那我們回風的時候其實它轉生的所謂的過濾跟阻隔跟傾銷的部分呢其實它的整個空調系統裡面有進一步的做阻隔沒有 署長我時間有限我當然是希望讓你答覆的清楚不過可能要就陳瑋瑜所講的大家要抓的精準因為他之前已經講說沒有違反GMP了我就覺得非常的離譜到極點了這是第一點 第二點"},{"start":359.775,"end":376.178,"text":"他絕對不是只有這個環境而已不是只有這個研發實驗室你看喔除了生產區、微弱石、無菌跟這個監控外實驗室也沒有做管理紀錄就這樣被...欸對不起他在這個...他在這個...對不起我用一個隱喻啦就是五字要這個部分啦"},{"start":389.893,"end":411.372,"text":"5G二部分去年才發生的事情它有針對這事項的缺失你們就把它列為嚴重違反GMP的藥廠對不對那你們怎麼處理跟委員這邊報告因為這個跟產品之間是有關係的所以直接會對品質有影響所以它列的層級就自然所以國防生技你的意思是要跟我表達就是說跟產品沒有關係"},{"start":412.472,"end":434.959,"text":"你要直接這麼講目前我們去查查之後因為廠內的製造疫苗的產品跟生產跟檢驗都沒有在這次涉案的範圍的區域執行因此我們判斷是沒有對疫苗的品質跟安全有差異的但是我們一致還是要去強調是我們是對國際一致性的PIX GMP的規範"},{"start":437.079,"end":462.729,"text":"對藥廠進行定期跟不定期的一些查查希望我們能夠嚴格的把關製藥業的一些製造的品質組長你們對五福是這麼處理的剛剛我講的那一段是針對五福除了生產區會落實無菌跟健康外實驗室也沒有做管理的紀錄你們這樣就把它打為嚴重違反GMP那現在是直接實驗室裡面有違規養老鼠甚至於死尿紙箱都不丟然後存放在那邊要培養什麼樣的東西"},{"start":464.07,"end":469.824,"text":"這樣的GMP廠可以云東風情說因為他醫療的區域不一樣請大家放心可以這樣嗎"},{"start":471.823,"end":496.989,"text":"我們這一次要重申其實食藥署對於國內藥廠的GMP是已經建立了我們國際的規格只有這樣子嚴謹的國際規格才能夠讓我們的產品可以到全世界都能夠走得通所以我們對於這件事件我們非常嚴謹的去做採取雖然說我們看到它是獨立管理的品質是無虞的但是我們還是提出了嚴重的缺失以上說明"},{"start":500.067,"end":521.074,"text":"一定會的不然我們前兩天上禮拜才講說人家那個世界的那個極大的藥廠投資是在新加坡怎麼反而不選擇到台灣來如果這個事情處理得不好真的會一笑大方也會折損我們整個在執行這個GMP過程裡面對我們的信心會大打折扣"},{"start":522.045,"end":527.669,"text":"好不好 可以吧可以的 我們一定積極的採取好 謝謝對不起 稍微再給我一點點時間我請經濟部的次長"},{"start":531.978,"end":560.344,"text":"市長一邊走一邊聽美國貿易代表在3月31公布2025對外貿易障礙評估中其中點名台灣豬牛馬燈設有貿易障礙等於是我們在歧視這個台灣標示美豬美牛是這樣的一個歧視的行為但事實上台灣的肉品都有標示產地不論美國就連澳洲就連日本甚至以台灣本土都會標示出來甚至以被川普講的加拿大比較稱為他的"},{"start":561.464,"end":576.5,"text":"一周我們都要標示出來嘛哪來的歧視哪來的不平等哪來的沒有公平你們簡單回應一下是我們的現在的相關的標示呢都是一體適用的所以未來呢我們在"},{"start":577.749,"end":597.576,"text":"我們未來的談判團隊一定會去跟這個美方去說明清楚這個部分呢是在台灣在台灣的話是一體施用對所以我是要特別強調說如果是這個樣子美方就講說實際上在歧視那相對其他這麼多國家都是一樣在台灣一視同仁的標示出來"},{"start":598.618,"end":607.703,"text":"那來來有歧視的問題不可能嘛對不對那你今天你美國牛肉豬肉輸入到台灣輸給加拿大輸入到台灣的整個數量那是他們自己要去做檢討修正反而不能來講說是我們設下貿易障礙讓他們的銷售量低於其他進口的國家的銷售量"},{"start":618.789,"end":646.387,"text":"我想這個談判裡面應該你們應該是可以來拒以力爭看責任的緩和來把這事情講清楚所以台灣的農業絕對不能成為這次美國貿易關稅談判桌的籌碼市長可以做到嗎剩下不到90天整個談判團隊在政府院長的領軍之下我們一定盡我們最大的能力農業是一個非常敏感的在那個產業那台灣是以農立國台灣以農為本"},{"start":647.788,"end":664.338,"text":"那絕對不能在這次關稅談判中然後讓我們台灣農業去受到任何的傷害跟折損好不好可以啦 謝謝那第二件事情是這樣這個關稅不僅全球起商人連各行各業都受到不同程度的衝擊有一個職業逆風上漲市長有掌握嗎有一個產業的人才的人力他是逆風上漲就是有這個"},{"start":672.31,"end":701.221,"text":"七成八的民眾優關稅占影響工作但是這個AI職缺卻飆升到11%市長你知道這個事情嗎美國川普也宣布要赤字五千億美元打造這個STARTGATE然後的AI超級企劃也要讓美國走在全球的AI領先的地位嘛中國研發Deposit可獲得AI人工智能其實這個人工智能戰爭已經熱戰中了各國都投入在這個AI領域嘛"},{"start":702.182,"end":714.4,"text":"連工業總會在因應這次關稅中提出六大建言其中有一個就是強化AI人才培育那我請教次長台南何時能有原產的國產的原生AI誕生"},{"start":716.441,"end":736.094,"text":"報告委員AI也是這個艾總統所說的五大信賴產業之一所以我們現在相關的部會尤其是在經濟部積極的在培育AI的相關的人才到目前為止我們從賴政府上台之後到目前我們已經培育了6萬人次所以我們的目標是在4年之內要培育20萬人到現在已經有6萬人"},{"start":742.838,"end":771.39,"text":"打標所以經濟部的相關的部會都在進行人才培育工作那實際上其他的部會包括速發部等等也都在進行相關的工作你們有培育到6萬的人次的?有你確定?是我們看一個資料就好了差不多請你簡單再導我就好了你看這個排名我們是21嘛全球AI這個指數嘛對不對然後郭部長還特別提到說今年年底要超越香港"},{"start":772.31,"end":799.507,"text":"是不是 然後看明年能不能再超越第六名的藍函嘛齁那你們有一個從去年開始政府就喊出2加4的人才培育方案每年要培育2.5萬的海外生嘛 對不對然後國內是2.5萬嘛四年要培育20萬的AI相關人才你講的是這個啊對現在已經有達到6萬的 6萬人次去年才開始呢對 但是因為呢我們所謂的培育的話是包括我們經濟部所屬的所有的"},{"start":800.597,"end":811.884,"text":"這個掌管的產業別包括製造業以及你在最後看一張表格好不好你看這個全球AI的指標有七大指數有七大的指標台灣我們除了這個基礎建設有極盡滿分其他除了政府"},{"start":816.631,"end":832.563,"text":"策略、商業及人才、政策環境等等好像都不盡理想那我在去年6月12日總諮詢有特別建立說雲林科大這個退場之後有30公頃的校地12棟校舍空間可利用可以成為台灣首座"},{"start":833.563,"end":859.597,"text":"這個AI人才的培訓基地郭部長也有承諾那你們金光鼠也在8月5號今年的8月5號不是去年8月5號有提出環球課到退場的校地營運規劃那規劃有三大主軸第一個是AI國際經貿暨雙軸轉型人才培育創新研發暨AI新創育成支持輔導其他就幼齡壯齡在滴熱火了那如今這個全球的AI戰已經如虎如同在展開"},{"start":860.885,"end":873.455,"text":"但是環球消停還限制在那個地方你們資金的產花所三大功能下落不明所以部長要宣誓要趕到14名明年要趕到第2名我覺得指日不可待"},{"start":876.44,"end":892.101,"text":"你怎麼笑出來報告委員我的剛剛的您所說的這個排名的檢討我們在部內確實有做檢討我們也希望能夠精進我們全這個全台灣的AI不只是人陪甚至包括相關的這個環境那"},{"start":894.045,"end":919.88,"text":"您所提示的這個環球科大的部分我回去再跟產發所再來我這邊這樣嘛你的另外人士等一下會後給我們委員會資料這第一個看你整個執行的狀態是怎麼樣那第二個我希望剛剛針對這個環球科大要來做整個轉移應用成為AI的這個培訓人才你們的時程是不是可以加快有相關的積極的這樣的報告給我們來做參考是好謝謝好謝謝莊委謝謝謝謝劉昭"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":821,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時16分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["邱部長泰源：劉召委好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長辛苦了。部長，昨天食藥署查國光生技有查出什麼嗎？這個畢竟是去年7月份的事情，如果現在還能夠讓你們查出什麼東西，那就是真的是FDA＋FBI。現在回過頭來，為什麼去年7月國光生技廠內發生這麼嚴重的問題，不用進行通報？然後你知道國光生技講什麼嗎？老鼠是放在研發區，研發區與生產區有明確的區隔，不屬於藥品優良製作作業範圍GMP所規範的範圍內，因此不會影響到藥品品質。請署長回應我兩個問題，第一個，查到什麼？第二個，國光生技這樣回應對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。謝謝委員。我請署長。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員非常精準的提問。有關於國光生技的部分，第一個，我們昨天7點知道的消息……"],["劉委員建國：幾點？"],["姜署長至剛：昨天早上7點的時候，我立刻就在昨天派人去國光生技做查核，我們馬上就出發了，對於為什麼國光沒有立即去通報這件事情，因為在GMP沒有涉及這產品，國光他們是這麼樣子的解釋，但是我們認為，一樣的……"],["劉委員建國：GMP沒有涉及產品？"],["姜署長至剛：對。沒有涉及產品的部分，所以它就說沒有通報，可是我們去的時候，我們不是這樣子認為的，因此我們有開出缺失，這邊特別跟委員做進一步的報告。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以針對國光生技講的這句話，這一個事發的地點不在GMP的規範裡面，正確嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：其實我們就直接開出缺失了，跟委員做進一步報告。"],["劉委員建國：你要回應我啊。"],["姜署長至剛：對，我們已經有開出了它的缺失，這樣子是不符合的。"],["劉委員建國：是不符合嘛？所以國光生技到現在還在騙，還是怎樣？為什麼講出這樣的話？這個藥廠裡面難道不包含它所謂的實驗區、不包含它的實驗室、不包含它的研發區嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想他們的認定上，跟我們去查察的過程當中，其實是有出入的，我們認為他們必須要包含了相關的查核，雖然說這個在二樓的研發的獨立區域，跟我們的上市產品的實驗區在B1跟一樓，是分開來的，實體上面是區隔的，所以對於所有的產品是沒有風險的。"],["劉委員建國：不管是在一樓或是二樓，署長，你不能這樣回答我吧？不管是一樓或二樓，整棟建物難道不屬於規範GMP廠的範圍裡面嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：有，是在範圍內，我們很清楚地說是在……"],["劉委員建國：所以它怎麼可以說不屬於藥品優良製造作業規範GMP所屬的規範範圍？"],["姜署長至剛：我想他們這樣子的論述是他們的，可是我們監管的單位裡面是完全不一樣的看法跟做法。"],["劉委員建國：吹哨者的爆料是說，去年7月颱風期間，臺中市在24日及25日就已經停班停課，也因此國光生技的員工就便宜行事，直接把實驗鼠放在實驗室中2天，重新上班之後，發現老鼠屎尿滲出，流淌滿桌，事後又拖了3天才移走，也就是說，這些老鼠在實驗室待了5天。不僅如此，連裝白老鼠的紙箱被屎尿浸溼，這種應該立即丟棄的東西，竟然還堆在實驗室好多天。部長跟署長可以看投影片。這個實驗室裡面有檢測核酸與DNA濃度的精密儀器、製冰器、恆溫水槽，加上有鹽酸、硫酸、福馬林，就連研發人員的實驗袍，也統統暴露在污染中，對不對？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，第一個部分，有關於實驗鼠的部分，其實在26日正式上班就已經移走了，就這個部分做進一步說明。整個實驗室在去年（113年）8月6日也遷移到南投，本次查察也確認了這個空間……"],["劉委員建國：8月6日的事，我們就不要再談嘛，好不好？我們就談事發當時的時間才準確嘛，你連事後的清消到底有沒有落實其實也不知道嘛。"],["姜署長至剛：有，進一步的有清消，紀錄上面有。"],["劉委員建國：你們有指出這是它的缺失之一嘛，研發部門環境消毒紀錄也不完整啊。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，他們有做清消，只是我們覺得他的紀錄不夠完整，就提出了一些糾正。"],["劉委員建國：然後另外，吹哨者的說法是說，二樓實驗室惡臭瀰漫到整個樓梯間，而樓下一樓就是品管檢驗區。","另外，雖然品管檢驗區是獨立的空調空間，但除此之外，整棟大樓的空調系統也是相通的，這些鼠毛在大樓流竄，工作人員在這個工作環境下工作，即便品管區有區隔，這樣的環境，你們衛福部要幫國光掛保證，你們可以……"],["姜署長至剛：我們沒有掛保證，跟委員報告，因為整個空調系統是獨立的，那我們回封了之後，其實它本身的過濾、阻隔跟清消的部分，整個空調系統裡面有進一步的做阻隔。"],["劉委員建國：署長，我的時間有限，我當然希望讓你答覆得清楚，不過可能就誠如你所講的，大家要抓得精準，它既然已經講說沒有違反GMP了，我就覺得非常離譜，離譜到極點了，這是第一點。","第二點，絕對不是只有這個環境而已，不是只有這個研發實驗室，你看，除了生產區會落實無菌跟監控外，實驗室也沒有做管理紀錄，我用一個隱喻，就是五福製藥，這是去年才發生的事情，它有這四項缺失，你們就把它列為嚴重違反GMP的藥廠，對不對？那你們怎麼處理？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，因為這個跟產品之間是有關係的，所以直接會對品質有影響，所以它列的層級就自然……"],["劉委員建國：所以你的意思是要跟我表達，就是國光生技的事跟產品沒有關係？你要直接這麼講？"],["姜署長至剛：目前我們去查察之後，因為廠內製造的疫苗產品生產跟檢驗，都沒有在這次涉案範圍的區域執行，因此我們判斷疫苗的品質跟安全是沒有差異的，但是我們還是要一致強調的是，我們對於國際一致性的PIC/S GMP的規範，對藥廠進行定期跟不定期的一些查察，希望我們能夠嚴格把關製藥業的製造品質……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你們對五福是這麼處理的，剛剛我講的那一段就是針對五福，除了生產區會落實無菌跟監控外，實驗室也沒有做管理的紀錄，你們這樣就把它打為嚴重違反GMP的規範，那現在國光是直接在實驗室裡面違規養老鼠，甚至於屎尿、紙箱都不丟，然後存放在那邊要培養什麼樣的東西，對這樣的GMP廠，可以雲淡風清地說，因為一、二樓的區域不一樣，請大家放心，可以這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們這一次要重申，其實食藥署對於國內藥廠的PIC/S GMP已經建立了國際的規格，只有這樣子嚴謹的國際規格，才能讓我們的產品可以到全世界都能夠走得通，所以我們對於這一個事件，非常、非常嚴謹地去做裁處，雖然說我們看到它是獨立管理的，品質是無虞的，但是我們還是提出了嚴重的缺失。以上說明。"],["劉委員建國：徹查到底。"],["姜署長至剛：一定會的。一定會的。"],["劉委員建國：我們上個禮拜才講說世界級的大藥廠投資是在新加坡，怎麼不選擇到臺灣來，如果這個事情處理得不好，真的會貽笑大方，也會讓我們在執行GMP的過程裡面，讓人民對我們的信心大打折扣。好不好？可以吧？"],["姜署長至剛：可以的，我們一定積極地裁處。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。對不起，召委，再給我一點點時間。我們請經濟部江次長。次長，你一邊講一邊聽，美國貿易代表在3月31日公布2025對外貿易障礙評估中，其中點名臺灣豬、牛設有貿易障礙，等於是我們在歧視，臺灣標示美豬、美牛是一個歧視的行為，但事實上臺灣的肉品都有標示產地，不論美國，就連澳洲、就連日本，甚至於臺灣本土，都會標示出來，甚至於被川普講要成為美國一州的加拿大，我們都要標示出來，哪來的歧視？哪來的不平等？哪來的沒有公平？你能不能簡單回應一下？"],["江次長文若：是。我們現在相關的標示都是一體適用的，所以我們未來的談判團隊一定會去跟美方說明清楚，這個部分在臺灣是一體適用。"],["劉委員建國：對。所以我是要特別強調，如果這個樣子美方就講說是歧視，那相對的其他這麼多國家都是一樣，在臺灣被一視同仁地標示出來，哪來有歧視的問題？不可能嘛，對不對？那今天美國牛肉、豬肉輸入到臺灣整個數量輸給加拿大，他們自己要去做檢討修正嘛，不能說是我們設下貿易障礙，讓他們的銷售量低於其他進口國家的銷售量。我想這個談判裡面，你們應該是可以來據理力爭，看怎麼緩和，來把這個事情講清楚。所以臺灣的農業絕對不能成為這一次美國貿易關稅談判桌的籌碼，次長可以做到嗎？剩下不到90天。"],["江次長文若：我們整個談判團隊在鄭副院長的領軍之下，我們一定會盡我們最大的能力去說明。"],["劉委員建國：農業是非常敏感的產業，臺灣以農立國，臺灣以農為本，絕對不能在這次關稅談判中，讓我們臺灣的農業受到任何傷害跟折損，好不好？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以啦？謝謝。","第二件事情是這樣，這個關稅讓各行各業都受到不同程度的衝擊，有一個職業逆風上漲，次長，你有掌握嗎？有一個產業的人才、人力是逆風上漲，就是有七、八成的民眾憂心關稅戰影響工作，但是AI職缺卻飆升到11%，次長知道這個事情嗎？美國的川普也宣布要斥資5,000億美元打造「Stargate」，然後AI超級計畫也要讓美國走在全球AI的領先地位，中國研發DeepSeek的AI人工智能，其實這個人工智能戰爭已經熱戰中了，各國都投入在AI領域，連工業總會在因應這次關稅事件中提出六大建言，其中有一個就是強化AI人才培育，我請教次長，臺灣何時能有國產的原生AI誕生？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，AI也是賴總統所說的五大信賴產業之一，所以我們現在相關部會，尤其是經濟部，正積極地培育AI相關人才，到目前為止，我們從賴政府上台之後，到目前我們已經培育了6萬人次，所以我們的目標……"],["劉委員建國：培育6萬人次？"],["江次長文若：是。我們的目標是在4年之內要培育20萬人，到現在已經有6萬人達標，所以經濟部相關部會都在進行人才培育工作，實際上其他的部會，包括數發部等等，也都在進行相關的工作。"],["劉委員建國：你們有培育到6萬的人次了？"],["江次長文若：有。"],["劉委員建國：你確定？"],["江次長文若：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們看一個資料就好了，請你簡單再答覆我就好了，你看這個排名，全球AI指數，我們是排第二十一，對不對？"],["江次長文若：對。"],["劉委員建國：然後郭部長還特別提到今年年底要超越香港，是不是？"],["江次長文若：我們盡力。"],["劉委員建國：然後看明年能不能再超越第二名的南韓。從去年開始政府就喊出2＋4的人才培育方案，每年要培育2.5萬的海外生嘛，對不對？然後國內是2.5萬嘛，4年要培育20萬個AI相關人才，你講的是這個？"],["江次長文若：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在已經有達到6萬了。"],["江次長文若：6萬人次。"],["劉委員建國：去年才開始。"],["江次長文若：對。但是因為我們所謂的培育是包括我們經濟部所屬掌管的所有產業別，包括製造業及服務業。"],["劉委員建國：你再看這張表格，好不好？你看全球AI有七大指標，臺灣除了基礎建設幾近滿分，其他的政府策略、商業、人才、政策環境等等，好像都不盡理想，我在去年6月12日總質詢有特別建議，雲林科大退場之後，有30公頃的校地、12棟的校舍空間可利用，可以成為臺灣首座AI人才的培訓基地，郭部長也有承諾，你們經發局在今年的8月5日，不是去年8月5日，有提出環球科大退場的校地營運規劃，規劃有三大主軸，第一個是AI國際經貿暨雙重轉型人才培育、創新研發AI新創育成支持輔導，其他就是幼齡、壯齡、在地樂活，如今全球的AI戰已經如火如荼展開，但是環球校地還是閒置在那個地方，至今產發署的三大功能下落不明，所以部長說要從第十四名到明年提升到第二名，我覺得指日不可待。你怎麼笑出來？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，剛剛您所說的這個排名的檢討，我們在部內確實有做檢討，我們也希望能夠精進全臺灣的AI，不只是人培，甚至包括相關的環境，您所提示的環球科大的部分，我回去再跟產發署……"],["劉委員建國：這樣嘛，你的6萬人次等一下會後給我們委員會資料，看你們整個執行的狀態是怎麼樣，這是第一個。"],["江次長文若：好。"],["劉委員建國：第二個，我希望針對環球科大要來做轉移應用，成為AI人才的培訓基地這部分，你們的時程是不是可以加快？有相關的積極的報告，給我們做參考。"],["江次長文若：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝召委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉召委。謝謝次長。","接續我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5fbbeb90329471938c89945c4c3ca21e1840241ee498f319ae6f0bca3cc8d690d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:12:11 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在這邊有請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":15.468,"end":42.207,"text":"主委好本席因为过去我也参与过这个核安会的相关的原子能法的研究所以呢本席基本上认为原能会过去叫原能会现在核安会其实从成立以来至今下来就是依法行政我基本上对于核安会依法行政而且秉持专业去审查相关核电厂的这个安全措施本席是很有信心的我在这边想请教主委"},{"start":43.988,"end":48.571,"text":"你們作為台電核電廠的主管機關應該是最知道台灣三座核電廠的安全性如何請問你們在這40年來的檢查過程當中有沒有曾經出現過有核電廠因為設備或是營運管理的缺失而必須達到要關廠停機的這樣子的一個案例你們有曾經有做過這樣的討論嗎"},{"start":68.624,"end":96.223,"text":"没有 核电厂是必须符合安全要求的核电厂也必须安全的这是核安会的职责是 简单来说就是从原子能委员会成立至今到改组现在是核安会在你们过去40年的检验当中你们都没有看到发生过核一核二核三厂极为安心"},{"start":96.643,"end":112.224,"text":"极为危险的情况简单来说你们认为台湾的核电厂是安全的吗如果核安会认为核电厂有安全疑虑的话核安会一定会下令停机检查"},{"start":112.825,"end":133.331,"text":"是好那停機檢查之後就還是可以運轉嘛所以簡單來說就是民進黨口口聲聲說核電廠不安全的這樣子的一個說法從數據上面來看從核安會過去的依法行政執行的安全檢查來看基本上就是一個錯誤的說法台灣的核電廠是安全的說法到現在"},{"start":138.649,"end":143.737,"text":"台湾的核电厂是经过团会的跟以前原灯会的"},{"start":145.185,"end":174.291,"text":"严厉监督之下我们是可以达到安全的要求好很好那么我们知道其实现在有关于这个立法院正在讨论核电厂研疫条例的相关的修法那我们也看到就是其他的国家不管是美国日本还有更多的国家其实对于核电厂的研疫早就已经开始在做了像美国那么甚至就是已经以20年为单位可以陆续的向后研疫那么日本呢"},{"start":174.631,"end":201.303,"text":"也是已经批准了多座的机组可以延长运转到60年请问主委如果说我们台湾的核电厂研译再研一个10年20年您认为安全上面会有疑虑吗就要经过评估才知道那么请问何安慧现在有没有开始做核电厂研译之后的安全技术标准的相关研译"},{"start":202.281,"end":218.816,"text":"河安會有我們的研議的評估標準所以對於現在我們的核電廠研議有可能研議那麼這個對於這個台電如果有提出研議申請那麼河安會這邊已經準備好了相關的安全技術評估標準嗎"},{"start":222.337,"end":249.699,"text":"台電在以前提出核電廠研議的申請當時我們就已經審查的差不多了什麼時候提出過核電廠研議的申請98年98年的時候曾經有提出過所以那時候核安會就已經做過相關的安全技術標準的制定是不是 你們已經有提有一套安全檢查的標準"},{"start":250.689,"end":277.945,"text":"是嗎是的我們有參考美國的做法好那所以當時這套標準到現在還可以適用嗎應該還可以適用吧這個安全技術標準基本上應該不會改變的太多那麼所以呢本席認為說其實因為現在立法院這個在野黨這個可以說是立法院的多數立委基本上都很支持我們的核電廠必須要研議那我們會推動相關的修法"},{"start":278.525,"end":306.803,"text":"雖然說之後核電廠到底能不能研議台電能不能真正的提出申請關鍵點還是在經濟部跟行政院可是我想核安會這裡應該要做好準備因為隨時隨地都有可能這個同意和台電的核電廠的研議申請那麼不能講說核電廠這個提出了申請之後呢可是核安會沒有做好準備那我認為這是極其不妥的所以呢也希望"},{"start":308.204,"end":321.364,"text":"主委这边能够代理和安会的同仁然后好好针对研议之后的安全技术标准然后提出一个完整的评估报告好谢谢谢谢委员好谢谢翁晓琳委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":885,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時12分）主席好，有請主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["翁委員曉玲：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：本席因為過去參與過核安會相關的原子能法的研究，所以基本上我認為原能會，過去叫原能會，現在叫核安會，其實從成立至今向來就是依法行政，基本上對於核安會依法行政，而且秉持專業去審查核電廠相關的安全措施，本席是很有信心的。","我想請教主委，你們做為台電核電廠的主管機關，應該最知道臺灣3座核電廠的安全性如何，請問你們在這40年來的檢查過程當中，有沒有曾經出現過核電廠因為設備或是營運管理的缺失，而達到必須要關廠停機的案例？你們曾經做過這樣的討論嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有。"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會監管核電廠必須是符合安全要求的，核電廠也必須是安全的，這是核安會的職責。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，簡單來說，從原子能委員會成立至今，現在是改組為核安會，在你們過去40年的檢驗當中，你們都沒有看到核一、核二、核三廠發生過極為危險的情況，簡單來說，你們認為核電廠是安全的嗎？臺灣的核電廠是安全的嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：如果核安會認為核電廠有安全疑慮的話，核安會一定會下令停機檢查。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，然後停機檢查之後還是可以運轉嘛！所以簡單來說，民進黨口口聲聲說核電廠不安全，這樣子的一個說法，從數據上面來看，從核安會過去依法行政執行的安全檢查來看，基本上就是一個錯誤的說法，臺灣的核電廠是安全的，so far到現在。"],["陳主任委員明真：臺灣的核電廠是經過核安會跟以前原能會的嚴厲監督之下，我們是可以達到安全的要求。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，很好。我們知道現在立法院正在討論核電廠延役條例的修法，我們也看到其他國家，不管是美國、日本還有更多的國家，其實對於核電廠的延役早就已經開始在做了，像美國甚至已經以20年為單位，可以陸續地向後延役，日本也已經批准了多座機組延長運轉到60年，請問主委，如果我們臺灣的核電廠延役，再延個10年、20年，您認為安全上面會有疑慮嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：這要經過評估才知道。"],["翁委員曉玲：這要經過評估才知道。"],["陳主任委員明真：評估才知道，對。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那麼請問核安會現在有沒有開始研議核電廠延役之後的安全技術標準？"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會有延役的評估標準，詳細情形……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以對於現在核電廠有可能延役，台電如果有提出延役申請，核安會這邊已經準備好了相關的安全技術評估標準嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：台電以前提出核一廠延役的申請，當時我們就已經審查得差不多了。"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼時候有提出過核電廠延役的申請？"],["陳主任委員明真：98年。"],["翁委員曉玲：98年的時候曾經有提出過，所以那時候核安會就已經做過相關的安全技術標準的制定，是不是？你們已經有一套安全檢查的標準，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的，我們有參考美國的作法。"],["翁委員曉玲：當時這一套標準到現在還可以適用嗎？應該還可以適用吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：是，還可以適用。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個安全技術標準基本上應該不會改變得太多。"],["陳主任委員明真：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：本席認為現在立法院的在野黨，可以說是立法院的多數立委基本上都很支持核電廠必須要延役，我們會推動相關的修法，雖然說之後核電廠到底能不能延役，台電能不能真正地提出申請，關鍵點還是在經濟部和行政院，可是核安會應該要做好準備，因為隨時隨地都有可能同意台電的核電廠延役申請。那麼不能講說核電廠提出申請之後，可是核安會沒有做好準備，我認為這是極其不妥的，所以希望主委能夠帶領核安會的同仁，好好針對延役之後的安全技術標準，提出一個完整的評估報告，好，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員明真：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員，主委請回。","再來請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢。","關於今天的會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員所提書面質詢及相關資料，列入紀錄，並刊登公報；對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。","報告委員會，今天議程處理完畢，現在散會，謝謝各位。","散會（12時18分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e56a249e1989b940f19742596ee20a55b8840241ee498f319ab68fd153a217bd045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:03:41 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我想說你沒有要叫人我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表 顏惠欣還有經濟部的政務次長 姜文洛還有農業部的常務次長 杜文貞好 姜次長還有農業部的次長經濟部今天都沒有人叫"},{"start":41.004,"end":58.343,"text":"好 三位好2025年3月31號我們美國就已經公布了2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告去指控說台灣對豬肉牛肉馬鈴薯跟稻米跟基改食品設定貿易障礙所以對此可能會對我們台灣"},{"start":60.424,"end":81.358,"text":"關稅懲罰作為一個理由可是至上邊的數據來看的話台灣對美國的農產品的出口量事實上是相差20倍的貿易逆差我們不但沒有在美國便宜還有可能事實上會接受到傾銷所以我不知道嚴代表還有我們的江次長這邊想問兩位為了糧食自給率攸關我們國內的安全各國對此有"},{"start":88.884,"end":116.844,"text":"貿易限制美國台灣都有可是對這次美國指控你們兩位的看法是什麼好 謝謝委員我先首先說明一下我們談判代表辦公室的立場就是基本上我們當然會去考量這個議題是多面向的議題所以除了要去跟美國去談關稅的問題以外實際上我們也知道這些產業農產實際上還要考量到國人健康跟消費習慣為基本的前提"},{"start":117.324,"end":143.34,"text":"但是呢我們當然也同時要去思考到這些國際標準要做一些橫頻的思考所以基本上我們會綜合這些因素然後基本上我們會尊重我們的農業跟經濟的主政單位來做一個通盤的一個立場的確認好謝謝代表那江次長這邊是謝謝委員貿易逆差是美方關切的議題但是除了貿易逆差以外他還有提出來"},{"start":143.939,"end":161.038,"text":"像非關稅的障礙等等也都是美方關切的一體所以我們政府是一體的從各個層面去運營我們相關的立場以上好 謝謝次長那台灣的糧食至給率事實上是逐年下降到31.7%"},{"start":163.487,"end":187.313,"text":"特別是核穀類的糧食的供給量還不能滿足需求所以我們的稻米玉米大豆這種糧食的產量是不足的我們有進口的糧食調節存量的長期需求可是又不能放任我們的糧商被就是破壞價格之後傷害到糧農的利益所以想問我們的江市長跟我們的杜市長要購買糧食要調節供需需要保護糧農"},{"start":191.574,"end":211.785,"text":"面對任何能夠提供核穀類糧食的國家都應該保持歡迎的態度可是最怕的是就是被強迫傾銷所以美國有強迫傾銷的意圖嗎那政府怎麼去因應這個問題謝謝委員關心因為其實糧食安全這件事情真的很重要特別是在台灣其實在美聯"},{"start":213.025,"end":234.615,"text":"我們不管是核穀類的也好還有其他就是其實我們跟各國不是只有跟美國其實對於台灣以農業來講一定是台灣優先那但是糧食安全確實是要注意所以所以在整個我們對於這個橫頻的過程當中第一個一定是保障我們自己的台灣但是第二個安全的存量確實是一定還是要所以我剛剛有問說"},{"start":236.676,"end":265.702,"text":"最怕的是我們的強迫傾銷你覺得美國有這個意圖嗎應該這樣講其實我們也不是現在啦我們當初在加入WTO的時候其實也是面臨一樣很大的挑戰那但是我想為了台灣農業我們這樣的立場絕對還是要守住好那我續問我覺得在不傷害本國稻米價格的前提下台灣每季還可以增加多少的稻米的進口量這個數字農業部有沒有預先做估算能夠在這邊透露嗎"},{"start":267.954,"end":288.079,"text":"應該這樣說,我們這樣做不是怕那個糧其實對農民最大的幫助是確保他的收購價格、收入糧是一回事,糧有時候不是說要多少多少有時候氣候的變化真的不太能夠如我們所預期的有那麼多收穫但是確保農民的收入的價格,收購價格其實是重要的所以不是說我們要進口多少,還是說我們可以準備多少"},{"start":290.6,"end":306.426,"text":"而是說我們是雙重的標準在說第一個是確保農民收入一定要保障第二個我們的糧食存糧這塊也一定會守護所以我們當初在加入WTO的時候其實真的是那時候真的是很困難那我想我們經過那樣子的經歷之後怎麼守住台灣我們這塊其實我們是"},{"start":308.027,"end":316.632,"text":"有很堅定的立場在做我們再來看豬肉這一塊台灣2023年豬肉產值大於850億的新台幣國人平均消費量大概是36公斤 自給率大概88.5%2024年進口的豬肉內臟食品總值大概10萬公噸所以是出口的40倍那美國進口"},{"start":335.822,"end":355.035,"text":"8041公噸 佔總數的7.85%台灣豬肉沒有對美國出口所以想問一下2023年我們的豬瘟拔針今年有望為三大豬病非疫區的國家可是台灣的豬肉的出口卻相當疲弱那這是什麼原因"},{"start":357.891,"end":371.127,"text":"其實我們對疾病的控制不是只當作要做出口的唯一的目的第一個是我們的養豬產業能夠把成本降低能夠永續這是我們不管是做疾病清除也好"},{"start":371.627,"end":395.828,"text":"不管是做產業提升也好這是我們最大的目的那第二個台灣其實整個養豬的成本老實講確實是有點高有點高所以我們的出口市場其實是鎖定是高端市場那我們的養豬產業確實是也真的是很爭氣不只把口蹄清除把非洲豬人守住現在豬人也拔針也要被認可所以我覺得我們當然是有競爭力但是不是為了出口而出口"},{"start":396.943,"end":425.539,"text":"那關於台灣豬肉透過內銷跟出口來調節市場供需量的問題政府有沒有什麼策略應該是這樣講對我們來講其實台灣這個養豬產業確實要守住所以怎麼降低成本怎麼讓它永續經營這是第一件我們的養豬產業其實也體認到市場不是為了提供豬肉其實是有社會責任這是一個文化的那你2025年政府對於豬肉出口有沒有什麼計畫甚至台灣豬肉出口量你預估可以達到多少的成長率"},{"start":426.179,"end":442.319,"text":"這其實要看我們整個產業的支持我們不是為了出口而出口而是當作第一個是產銷調節的一個方式第二個我們針對不同市場特別是一些高端市場我們去鎖定讓我們的養豬農民出口是有利潤的不是只為了出口而出口這樣好"},{"start":443.18,"end":460.61,"text":"那一樣的再來談牛肉就是說我們台灣的牛肉需要大量仰賴進口所以因此牛肉進口不是政治問題而是供需的問題所以至於進口的條件就是法律問題食品安全衛生管理"},{"start":461.531,"end":482.889,"text":"就规定十年内发生狂牛症的国家获得是地区所产牛脂的头骨脑眼睛脊髓角肉内脏都不得输入所以一样问我们的杜次长现今美国是不是已经脱离了狂牛症的疫情到十年之久合乎我们六大禁止项目进口的条件"},{"start":485.456,"end":512.839,"text":"應該這樣說其實在世界動物衛生組織對於牛海綿狀腦病就是我們所俗稱的狂牛病其實它的認定方式已經不是以有沒有發生病例來看而是看它的風險那目前是有三個等級一個是風險可忽略一個是風險已控制那另外就是風險未知那對美國現在在世界動物衛生組織被認可是風險可忽略所以事實上它現在可以到它被認定的風險是風險可忽略"},{"start":516.207,"end":529.776,"text":"嚴代表想問一下如果美國尚未達到食品安全管理法規定的條件台灣便是很難滿足美國全面開放的要求面對貿易跟法律的兩難政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":531.181,"end":548.102,"text":"首先要說明的就是剛剛有提到美國現在被世界動物衛生組織所認定它在這個狂流症上面是風險可忽略區那這個風險可忽略區就這個世界衛生組織它的認定實際上是它的所有的部位"},{"start":548.843,"end":564.814,"text":"全流林都是安全可食用的這是我們從國際組織所得到的訊息但是這個符不符合我們國人的食用習慣以及國人對這個概念的這個接受的程度我覺得這是由我們的衛福跟農政的主管機關接下來再去做"},{"start":565.314,"end":580.151,"text":"進一步的專業上面的判斷跟評估那我想我們OTN就是經貿辦就是提供我們的農政跟衛福主管機關最這個堅強的後盾來然後確保我們國人的健康之下來做我們談判的立場"},{"start":581.721,"end":600.958,"text":"台灣有一套合格的農產品肉品的標示系統那建制這套系統的目的不是為了排斥美國的肉品是為了保障台灣消費者的知情權所以台灣豬農並不擔心任何國家進口肉品的競爭反而更在意的是進口肉品有沒有混雜"},{"start":602.279,"end":621.999,"text":"混充在臺灣豬肉流入市場這個事實上是長期比較關心的因此弱食食品標章事實上是消費者跟豬農的共同期待那消息會去年中旬的也有調查有6.5%的商品或店家沒有依規定標示並且肉品流向不明所以想問我們的嚴代表"},{"start":623.26,"end":633.212,"text":"臺灣農產品肉品標章行之有年是一項具有社會高度共識的制度面對美方認為標章會造成貿易障礙的誤解政府現在應對的態度是什麼"},{"start":636.83,"end":656.824,"text":"針對標章這個問題這樣更具體而言我想就是他有表示是原產地的標示以及國內標章的問題原產地的標示這是各國都有這個權利去要求還要確保他的進口來源因為他還有關稅上面的適用問題所以標示原產地這個是各國都該都擁有的權利"},{"start":657.901,"end":676.461,"text":"第二個呢針對說國內的這些食品標章的這件事情我想對台灣來說我們只要確保它是一體適用的一個做法那讓消費者有知的權利可以做在購買的時候做適當的選擇這個都是WTO國際規範上面容許各國可以做的事情"},{"start":676.749,"end":702.274,"text":"好 農業部這邊想問說 民間有政府提供系統供民眾查詢熱品流向的訴求就是不管經營部 農業部 大家的看法是什麼我想提供讓我們的消費者有能夠查詢 有知道來源的這個基本的資訊 我想應該是全民都希望的 包括我自己也是消費者好 經營部這邊"},{"start":705.376,"end":732.551,"text":"報告委員就如同前面一位杜次長說我們都是消費者所以我們都應該有吃的權利所以我覺得台美經貿要穩健發展所以我們希望農產品跟肉品有關國家應該適度保護可是台灣豬肉不怕競爭要爭取外銷所以希望農業部要加油那台灣牛肉進口的品項不是政治議題要符合法還是要符合法規食品標章我們還是希望能夠落實以上謝謝"},{"start":735.189,"end":736.22,"text":"謝謝林委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":786,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時3分）謝謝主席，請行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表顏慧欣，還有經濟部的政務次長江文若，還有農業部的常務次長杜文珍。"],["主席：江次長，還有農業部的次長，經濟部今天都沒人叫。"],["林委員月琴：三位好，2025年3月31日美國公布「2025對外貿易障礙評估報告」指控臺灣對豬肉、牛肉、馬鈴薯、稻米跟基改食品設定貿易障礙，並可能以此為對臺「關稅懲罰」的理由，但是自數據上得知，臺灣對美國農產品進出口量為相差20倍的貿易逆差，我們不但沒有占美國便宜，還可能受到傾銷。請問顏代表和江次長，糧食自給率攸關國內的安全，各國對此有貿易限制，美國、臺灣都有，對於這次美國的指控，兩位的看法是什麼？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，我先說明一下談判代表辦公室的立場，基本上我們當然會去考量這個議題是多面向的議題，除了要去跟美國談關稅的問題以外，實際上我們也知道這些產業、農產，還要考量到國人健康跟消費習慣為基本的前提。同時我們也要去思考這些國際標準，做一些衡平的思考，基本上我們會綜合這些因素，然後尊重我們的農業跟經濟的主政單位，做一個通盤立場的確認。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝代表，江次長這邊呢？"],["江次長文若：謝謝委員，貿易逆差是美方關切的議題，但是除了貿易逆差以外，美方還有提出非關稅障礙等等，也都是美方關切的議題，所以我們政府是一體的，從各個層面去運營我們相關的立場。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝次長，臺灣的糧食自給率事實上是逐年下降，來到31.7%，特別是禾穀類的糧食供給量，還不能滿足需求。我們的稻米、玉米、大豆這種糧食產量是不足的，所以我們有進口糧食以調節存量的長期需求，可是又不能放任我們的糧商被破壞價格之後，傷害到糧農的利益。請教江次長跟杜次長，要購買糧食、要調節供需，需要保護糧農，面對任何能夠提供禾穀類糧食的國家，我們都應該保持歡迎的態度，可是最怕的就是被強迫傾銷。所以美國有強迫傾銷的意圖嗎？政府怎麼去因應這個問題？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，其實糧食安全這件事真的很重要，特別是在臺灣，其實每年不管是禾穀類的也好，我們跟各國，不是只有跟美國，以農業來講一定是臺灣優先。但是糧食安全確實是要注意，所以我們對於這個衡平的過程，第一，一定是先保障臺灣，第二，安全的存量確實是一定要存在。"],["林委員月琴：所以我剛剛有說，最怕的是被強迫傾銷，你覺得美國有這個意圖嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：其實也不是現在，我們當初在加入WTO的時候，也是一樣面臨很大的挑戰，但我想為了臺灣農業，我們這樣的立場絕對還是要守住。"],["林委員月琴：那我續問，在不傷害本國稻米價格的前提下，臺灣每季還可以增加多少的稻米進口量？這個數字農業部有沒有預先做估算？能夠在這邊透露嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣講，我們在做的不是抓那個量，其實對農民最大的幫助是確保他的收購價格、收入。量是一回事，量通常不是說多少就有多少，有時候氣候的變化真的不太能夠如我們所預期的有那麼多收穫。但是確保農民收入的價格、收購價格其實是重要的，不是說我們要進口多少，或是我們可以準備多少，我們是雙重的標準在做。第一、確保農民收入一定要有保障，第二、我們的糧食存量這塊也一定會守護。所以我們當初在加入WTO的時候，其實那時候真的是很困難，我想我們有當初的經歷之後，怎麼守住臺灣，其實我們是有很堅定的立場。"],["林委員月琴：再來看豬肉這一塊，臺灣2023年的豬肉產值大約850億新台幣，國人平均消費量大概是36公斤，自給率大概88.5%。2024年進口的豬肉、內臟、食品總值大概10萬公噸，所以是出口的40倍。美國進口8,041公噸，占總數的7.85%，臺灣豬肉沒有對美國出口。請問，2023年我們的豬瘟拔針，今年有望成為「三大豬病非疫區」的國家，可是臺灣的豬肉出口卻相當疲弱，這是什麼原因？"],["杜次長文珍：其實我們對疾病的控制，不是只單做要出口的唯一目的，第一、我們的養豬產業能夠把成本降低，能夠永續，不管是做疾病清除、產業提升也好，這是我們最大的目的。第二、臺灣其實整個養豬的成本，老實講確實是有點高，所以我們的出口市場其實是鎖定高端市場。而我們的養豬產業也真的是很爭氣，不只把口蹄疫清除，把非洲豬瘟守住，現在豬瘟也拔針要被認可。所以我覺得我們當然是有競爭力，但不是為了出口而出口。"],["林委員月琴：關於臺灣豬肉透過內銷跟出口來調節市場供需量的問題，政府有沒有什麼策略？"],["杜次長文珍：對我們來講，其實臺灣養豬產業確實要守住，所以怎麼降低成本，怎麼讓它永續經營，這是第一件。我們的養豬產業其實也體認到，養豬不是為了提供豬肉，其實是有社會責任，這是一個文化的保存。"],["林委員月琴：那2025年政府對於豬肉出口有沒有什麼計畫？甚至臺灣豬肉出口量，你預估可以達到多少的成長率？"],["杜次長文珍：這其實要看我們整個產業的支持，我們不是為了出口而出口。首先是將其作為一個產銷調節的方式，其次我們針對不同市場，特別是一些高端市場，我們去鎖定，讓我們的養豬農出口是有利潤的，不是為了出口而出口。"],["林委員月琴：再來談牛肉，我們臺灣的牛肉需要大量仰賴進口，因此牛肉進口不是政治問題，而是供需的問題，至於進口的條件就是法律問題。食品安全衛生管理法就有規定，十年內發生狂牛症的國家或地區，所產牛隻的頭骨、腦、眼睛、脊髓、絞肉、內臟都不得輸入。請問杜次長，現今美國是否已經脫離狂牛症的疫情達十年之久，合乎六大禁止項目進口的條件？"],["杜次長文珍：世界動物衛生組織對於牛海綿狀腦病，就是我們俗稱的狂牛病，其實它的認定方式已經不是以有沒有發生病例來看，而是看它的風險。目前是有三個等級，一個是風險可忽略，一個是風險已控制，另外就是風險未知，美國現在在世界動物衛生組織被認可是風險可忽略。"],["林委員月琴：所以事實上它現在可以到？"],["杜次長文珍：它被認定的風險是風險可忽略。"],["林委員月琴：想問一下顏代表，若美國尚未能達到食品安全衛生管理法規定的條件，臺灣便很難滿足美國全面開放的要求，面對貿易跟法律的兩難，政府的態度是什麼？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：首先要說明的是，剛剛有提到美國現在被國際世界動物衛生組織認定，其狂牛症部分是風險可忽略區。風險可忽略區就世界衛生組織的認定，實際上是所有的部位、全牛齡都安全可食用，這是我們從國際組織得到的訊息。但是這符不符合我們國人的食用習慣，以及國人對這個概念的接受程度，我覺得這是由我們衛福跟農政的主管機關，接下來再去做進一步專業上的判斷跟評估。我們OTN經貿辦就是提供我們的農政跟衛福主管機關最堅強的後盾，在確保國人的健康之下，來做為我們談判的立場。"],["林委員月琴：臺灣有一套合格的農產品肉品的標示系統，建置這套系統的目的，不是為了排斥美國的肉品，是為了保障臺灣消費者的知情權。所以臺灣豬農並不擔心任何國家進口肉品的競爭，反而更在意進口肉品有沒有混雜、混充臺灣豬肉流入市場，這事實上是豬農長期比較關心的，因此，落實食品標章，是消費者跟豬農的共同期待。消基會去年中旬也有調查，有6.5%的商品或店家，沒有依規定標示，並且肉品流向不明。請問顏代表，臺灣農產品、肉品標章行之有年，是一項具有社會高度共識的制度，面對美方認為標章會造成貿易障礙的誤解，政府現在應對的態度是什麼？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：針對標章的問題，具體而言我想就是他有表示是原產地的標示，以及國內標章的問題。原產地的標示是各國都有權利去要求，要確保他的進口來源，因為他還有關稅上的適用問題，所以標示原產地是各國都該擁有的權利。第二、針對國內的食品標章，我想對臺灣來說，我們只要確保它是一體適用的做法，讓消費者有知的權利，可以在購買的時候做適當的選擇，這個都是WTO國際規範上面容許各國可以做的事情。"],["林委員月琴：好。對農業部，我想問說，民間有政府提供系統供民眾查詢肉品流向的訴求，不管是經濟部、農業部，大家的看法是什麼？"],["杜次長文珍：提供讓我們的消費者能夠查詢以知道來源的基本資訊，應該是全民都希望的，包括我自己也是消費者。"],["林委員月琴：好，請經濟部。"],["江次長文若：報告委員，就如同杜次長說的，我們都是消費者，所以我們都應該有知的權利。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得臺美經貿要穩健發展，農產品跟肉品攸關國家，應該要適度保護，可是臺灣豬肉不怕競爭，要爭取外銷，所以希望農業部要加油。","那臺灣牛肉進口的品項不是政治議題，還是要符合法規，食品標章我們還是希望能夠落實。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好。謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5c4bc0b8a541f25abc89945c4c3ca21e1840241ee498f319a3dd907335e0676765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:06:27 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是的但是我們並沒有做這樣的一個評估是因為我們認為時間到就應該做廚藝嘛 是不是"},{"start":187.385,"end":212.176,"text":"當初政策是如此那現在即使我們要開放要重新走向一個重新啟動也必須要走相關的程序是不是難道可以用一個公投用一個公投就決定我們屏東人的命運嗎這必須要經過修法之後還要台電根據需要提出申請然後我們和安會才可以處理申請案件"},{"start":212.995,"end":240.057,"text":"好 主委我還是要再提醒你一件事情上個禮拜我在院會有特別強調包含我們許多的專家學者包含台大的退休教授陳文山都有提到我們河山場目前所在地的部分有一個橫村斷層的部分這個斷層長度高達51公里一旦如果發生錯動可能引發規模7以上的地震這樣子的一個危險的因素 河南會難道不曉得嗎"},{"start":240.777,"end":247.659,"text":"核安會已經責成台電做成評估要不要請再補充一下好 各位委員說明了"},{"start":248.277,"end":275.18,"text":"那有關橫樽斷層在日本福島事故後已經要求台天公司要納入評估那也依照評估的結果針對店長的安全系統跟燃料池等進行評估跟強化好那既然你們都有在做評估剛剛為什麼我聽到的部分你們並沒有很義正嚴實的告訴在野黨的委員這樣子的他們的質詢能量是有問題的根本不顧我們屏東人的生命安全"},{"start":277.233,"end":302.243,"text":"請你們拿出你們的態度好不好主委5月17號該廚藝就廚藝不能透過這樣子一個密屋的公投就要決定我們屏東人5月17號一定會停機然後甚至包含這個核廢料的處理我相信都有很多專業的問題要討論不是今天講說你一句話講說可以放四年就放四年說什麼台電的人講的我們從來沒有聽過這個版本"},{"start":304.318,"end":314.104,"text":"這樣的錯誤的訊息 請不要以而傳而 好不好我們一切都依法行政對 我們會依法行政好 請荷蘭會拿出你們應有的態度 好不好 謝謝好 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次長本縣還是要救教"},{"start":309.859,"end":320.82,"text":"為什麼到基隆去查核連署人為什麼不是早上六點半去查核領銜人請回答"},{"start":322.805,"end":346.735,"text":"各位報告那金融地檢自己這麼做他自己本身有發信用稿就做一些澄清我們要表示就是說這個送達本身是合法但是妥適性的部分因為昨天跟今天委員大院或者媒體都有一些指證那妥適性的部分是不是要檢討市長金融地檢他應該已經講了這麼多天了嘛你上期主管機關那你在管理什麼"},{"start":348.936,"end":357.844,"text":"這個現在已經是通案了嘛根本不是個案了嘛現在通通已經通案了嘛對在野黨所有全部不是抓人就是押人這已經變成通案了嘛怎麼還在鬼扯什麼叫個案這不是通案這什麼是通案完全同一標準"},{"start":375.011,"end":397.991,"text":"那不是通案是什麼 什麼是通案郭文貴報告 他共通的標準就是要依真實的依法現在請教一下 六點半 到人家敲門這種政治操作故意讓罷免藍委這些人 深受祈禱群情激憤 來增加罷免藍委的"},{"start":399.691,"end":419.606,"text":"這樣的力道 是不是你們的目的就在這裡 是不是各位報告 我現在講的話不可能有些辦案上有什麼政治上的考量啦他是個案上的一個考量 而不是政治上的考量我想 博士長 本席相信你啦但是本席要請教為什麼六點半去 為什麼凌晨六點半"},{"start":422.548,"end":440.22,"text":"那這個個案他是檢察官他去做判斷嘛但是我們因為我們法務部無法接觸到那個個案他為什麼做這樣的決定那基隆地檢署他有發布新聞稿來澄清他為什麼做這樣的決定可是部長鄭明謙部長告訴我們是基隆人的生活習慣"},{"start":443.43,"end":470.37,"text":"你們這個是如何指導中華民國哪一個公務機關告訴你們基隆人的生活習慣是早上六點半沒有去的話就會找不到人哪一個公務機關告訴你們因為基隆地鐵署他就這個個案他本身發布了一個新聞稿澄清他為什麼在六點半送他船票為什麼他新聞稿上有一些具體說明啦原則上就是因為考量民眾他已經上班的便利性之類的"},{"start":472.787,"end":498.136,"text":"那 櫃部也認同是嗎各位這就真的是個案了 這不是我解釋 法務部認不認同的問題發這種新聞稿在騙三歲小孩 櫃部認不認同嘛各位報告 我跟您講就是說如果櫃部不認同是不是要糾正嘛櫃案上合法性沒有問題 是不是要糾正嘛但是它妥適性 妥不妥當 符不符合原理原則這不是糾不糾正的問題它當然不 當然不妥適啊不然你現在解釋那麼多幹什麼"},{"start":501.923,"end":518.205,"text":"你們做了什麼採取沒有嗎?各位他個案上還在偵辦我們不...什麼叫做個案?金融地檢查是個個案跟委員講你們不採取就是默認是嗎?這個不會啊那以後桃園就是五點半新竹是四點半啊 凌晨"},{"start":521.147,"end":543.792,"text":"如果你們放任下去就是這樣嗎不是嗎?鮑文我們沒有放任這不是我們法務部叫他這個個案檢察官他自己的判斷他認為他個案上他要做這樣子的決定所以法務部是一個無能的法務部完全無法約束智若網文就是了跟我們報告個案上他本來就不應該來報告法務部法務部本來就反而不應該去報現在你造成社會關注了嘛"},{"start":545.112,"end":570.644,"text":"對 現在已經算是被報導了你剛剛不是說不妥適嗎我不是說妥不妥適 個案上要去檢討你剛剛不是講不妥適嗎我沒有說我妥不妥適外界這件事情那既然是不妥適那你們採取的方式是什麼嘛我剛才沒有說他妥不妥適據法務部來講 我說這兩天外界包括大院已經做相關的一些執政我相信基隆地檢他會做一些妥適性的檢討我剛才是這樣子跟大院回答的我們就來看你們現在法務部"},{"start":575.458,"end":601.918,"text":"在鄭明謙部長帶領之下所形塑的通案我們看一下法律行為的比較韋照文書跟共諜現在不是呼天搶地從賴清德到卓榮泰到所有的執政者都在喊抓共諜說在野黨都是共諜"},{"start":604.764,"end":610.885,"text":"全部在執政黨的窩裡面請問一下法務部是用什麼樣的標準用什麼樣的標準抓到重大的共諜20萬交保抓到所謂的偽造文書在野黨要生壓五年以下有期徒刑要生壓無期徒刑的"},{"start":638.031,"end":662.521,"text":"這種處罰20萬交保能不能跟全國國人說明一下不要跟我扯個案法務部的標準非常簡單我們的檢察官獨立規範或者法官法甚至使用這種法都要求檢察官要客觀性中立性這是保持我們檢察官品味的要求那檢察官的法務部的標準很簡單個案上就是依照證據依照我們相關的法律依法來偵辦這就是法務部的標準"},{"start":663.735,"end":686.3,"text":"你們還在這裡恥言是嗎講到臉不紅氣不喘你以後怎麼教學生嘛今天你的對答跟歷史上今天所發生的事情你要如何面對來 請副秘書長您代表司法院這是法院的裁處對 在野黨"},{"start":692.694,"end":694.475,"text":"有這麼多的收押對於匪諜窩 抓到匪諜法院裁處20萬交保請問法院這是什麼邏輯啊又是個案"},{"start":712.849,"end":725.979,"text":"呃 聖楚英這一件交保是在偵查中檢察官所做的決定所以這個我們沒有辦法就是跟法院所做的這一些財處做相比較好 謝謝 那請次長看到沒有 司法又 又把你打臉檢察官自己裁定20萬交保"},{"start":744.011,"end":768.545,"text":"然後其他最高本性無期徒刑20萬交保然後對於在野黨國民黨疑似可能偽造文書要求生壓這就是今天檢察官很急著要升官是嗎急著要升官是嗎"},{"start":770.489,"end":796.552,"text":"蔣國光辦案他跟他升不升官沒有關係啊我們蔣國光辦案我們蔣國光他的看我辦過藍營的每一個都升官嘛他的歷練我們有一定的這個資歷他不會因為沒有錯啦以後再列逐番不及備載啦當然曉得現在內閣要改組啦所以劉世芳已經薄密演出到這種情況劉世芳已經薄密演出到這種情況他說他是部長依法要告發依法要偵辦"},{"start":798.544,"end":821.697,"text":"真的是不得了 現在每一個人都窮極要表現去看看內政委員會 劉思芳所在的內政委員會民進黨立委公然壓制公務人員不得出委員會 不得上廁所"},{"start":828.76,"end":833.103,"text":"直接辦理退休這種強制行為有申辦了嗎市長有申辦了嗎"},{"start":840.819,"end":845.901,"text":"有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?有證判了嗎?"},{"start":867.267,"end":889.025,"text":"你們現在法務部已經證明簽認了 已經認證國民黨如果遺失偽造文書是遠遠勝過共諜案共諜案不重要 抓在野黨比較重要今天調查局是哪一位"},{"start":897.205,"end":923.377,"text":"是哪一位 抱怨我是調查局副局長 吳義工副局長 是啊本席在這裡啊請問一下 我也不要問你啦我怕待會你也有受到什麼壓力啊但是本席要特別尤其是黃次長本席要特別提醒你全世界各個政權政黨輪替啊是實屬必然"},{"start":926.209,"end":948.122,"text":"黃市長你也有可能有一天當部長這個吳以工副局長你也有可能有一天當局長但是過程中的足跡請自己要保持乾淨因為很簡單嘛 你看我們吳宗憲吳委員 吳昭偉"},{"start":951.348,"end":979.91,"text":"怎麼不 怎麼誰能預設他可能2028他是國民黨的法務部長有很多事情會撥亂反正沙嗲離家啦不是不報時間未到本席在這裡喔來次長 那個副局長請回次長喔請教一下現在"},{"start":981.9,"end":1007.727,"text":"選罷法選罷法對於這些幽靈人口的查核要怎麼查核我們選罷法就幽靈人口有一個特別的規定他在須簽的罷免或者選舉他有一個虛偽遷徙戶口他都有特別的規範一個範圍虛偽遷徙戶口對好看看一下"},{"start":1009.341,"end":1037.57,"text":"這些當選無效當選無效這個台中的這個里長因為幽靈人口當選無效來下一頁來屏東的村長遷徙幽靈人口當選無效再來高雄還有金門下一頁好上一頁上一頁這麼多當選無效是因為幽靈人口"},{"start":1040.438,"end":1068.718,"text":"在選發法裡面幽靈人口要怎麼查核市長各位報告那個在實務上我們會跟相關的護證機關會保持一定的聯繫啦那警察他有時候會去做一些實際的查訪或者他有沒有實際居住在他涉及的所在地戶籍機關嘛或者是在相關的投票行為的當天我們會做相關的一些查證是依照戶籍法哪一條"},{"start":1072.014,"end":1072.414,"text":"護證事務所得派員查核"},{"start":1089.15,"end":1117.922,"text":"查對校證戶籍登記資料來看是不是有實際居住的事實就是針對反制幽靈人口因為這是選罷法直接明定的違法行為而依照戶籍法當然可以去查核那請問一下花蓮的民政處處長"},{"start":1120.114,"end":1135.94,"text":"依法去校對提案人是不是幽靈人口有沒有查核的 有請護證聽好 護證人員去查核依法有沒有拒依法有沒有拒依法有沒有拒嘛估計吧 71條寫的是什麼嘛"},{"start":1148.836,"end":1177.535,"text":"這個案我不瞭解本席問你戶籍法71條是不是明文規定嘛戶政人員是不是可以去校正嘛查核是不是居住適時是不是有你人口是不是戶籍人員是不是可以做這些事情我不是戶籍法的主管機關法律規定就是這樣可不可以做"},{"start":1179.246,"end":1193.435,"text":"法律規定是這樣可不可以做純粹法條規定他得派員調查對校正戶籍登記事項啊法條就是這樣規定再看看行政程序法36條行政機關應 應該的應職權調查證據"},{"start":1207.219,"end":1233.895,"text":"沒有調查是肚子是廢 廢吃食物的行為護身人員該不該去查核該不該去查核該不該去查核依照復籍法 他應該要查核行政程序法 更叫他應該要去查核市長 不會影響你的官位啦我法條都列給你看了嘛"},{"start":1235.333,"end":1245.057,"text":"我是一個事務官,不會影響我官位,我不是一個政務官可不可以啦,可不可以依法,可不可以依法查證行政執法36條,行政機關應依之前調查證據嘛,這法條這麼寫嘛,那個案上我不評論就可以吧,依法嘛,36條,好,那請副秘書長"},{"start":1266.591,"end":1293.308,"text":"現在這些事實都在這裡依照行政程序法跟戶籍法戶籍人員做實地幼齡人口的查核是應作為結果你們把人給收押了政治交付的任務有這麼沉重嗎國務機關依法執行"},{"start":1297.059,"end":1324.371,"text":"依法辦理就被你們收押是不是要引起寒蟬效應讓所有以後罷免罷免來委都不能查核是不是委員法官一定都是那個依照那個在個案中依照已經告訴你法律的依據在哪裡而且是因為"},{"start":1325.839,"end":1354.757,"text":"如果公務員不作為是廢詞失誤喔在個案中有關於那個事實現在已經是同案還有證據那個判斷的餘地這都是陳審法官他依照卷內資料他才有辦法知道的你到司法院來啊是很辛苦來代打的謝謝本席不會為難你只是適度也必須要提醒你法律的規定在那裡"},{"start":1357.017,"end":1373.131,"text":"給公務員 公務人員更寬廣的自由跟空間可以做到嗎依法辦理的空間給他們依法辦理的空間給他們依法辦理的空間可以嗎給他們依法辦理的空間可以嗎本席現在講的是通案"},{"start":1380.481,"end":1404.187,"text":"是不是應該給公務員依法辦理的空間 可以嗎法官一定會依據法律還有事證來做一個公正的判斷來 次長就是你們配合無間齁把一個依法執行的公務員 把他收押然後現在這個霸團啊現在霸團"},{"start":1405.034,"end":1433.517,"text":"在電視的Cable跑馬燈說法政府官員已經收押了所以現在大家盡量來沒有關係用跑馬燈這樣跑你們配合的真好本席再請教你一下依照這個罷免法相關的規定罷免立法委員他的罷免人員可以有多少位"},{"start":1435.131,"end":1463.971,"text":"可以有多少位我想問一下罷免人員是什麼意思辦事人員可以有多少位我不是選務機關我直接看你直接看這事鬧成這樣你不能說你什麼都不知道罷免立法委員叫20人只能20人而且還有很多的規定在學校在很多地方都不可以"},{"start":1465.441,"end":1492.949,"text":"公共場所也不可以學校也不可以投開票所附近也不可以現在鋪天蓋地的挨家挨戶去敲門敲門霸團挨家挨戶敲門店家挨家挨戶叫他們連署可不可以這樣可不可以這樣可不可以這樣"},{"start":1494.471,"end":1502.774,"text":"我們檢察官是有犯罪 偵辦犯罪的機關可不可以這樣這是選務機關的權責我沒有辦法替選務機關來解釋這個這個已經直接公然的妨礙秘密罪嘛這都是現行犯啦不是嗎人有投票的自由秘密投票的自由啊挨家挨戶敲門請他連署"},{"start":1523.78,"end":1548.154,"text":"公然違法法務部是應作為或不作為你們就直接違法本席現在已經在公然公然告發這個事情再過來二階偽造連署花蓮縣全國皆知4000份偽造到現在為止法務部無所動靜"},{"start":1551.82,"end":1577.08,"text":"我相信各位的官位都會保持啦再下次改組但是啊歷史會留待後人留待後人尤其學法的人法律以後會怎麼來評價各位在位的人把司法是國家最後一道防線皇后的徵鈔請把皇后的徵鈔還給人民"},{"start":1582.828,"end":1610.036,"text":"黃次長剛剛吳宗憲吳昭偉未來的吳部長已經有講了你黃老師可以認同嗎把皇后的徵鈔還給人民可以嗎可以嗎檢察官他就是依法沒有在講檢察官嘛次長可不可以把皇后的徵鈔還給人民司法本來就是為民服務啊"},{"start":1611.124,"end":1619.372,"text":"可不可以還給人民還給人民是什麼意思皇后的貞昭可不可以還給人民公平公正的司法本來就是應該公平公正的司法"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":704,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時42分）我們常常講，剛好就好，不要得了便宜還在賣乖啊！還在這裡伶牙俐齒的教訓在野黨，今天真的是……民進黨應該好好回去看看自己的黨章，民進黨的黨章是怎麼呼籲法律的執行？各位民進黨的擁護者，坐在這邊的這群人聽好！民進黨的黨綱：維護法律位階之原則並實現實質之正義。立法更應遵照正義理念，配合社會之發展，與時並進。司法也應超出黨派，依法獨立審判。第八條：「行政官僚制度除應接受其他部門嚴格監督制衡外，尤其應該建立保持政治中立的制度和行動倫理，以免淪為政黨的統治工具」，就是你們這群人。請次長跟副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩次長、副秘。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席實在很不想來詢問，每一天有這麼多的公務要執行，現在有這麼多執政黨加諸於在野黨的糾紛，我們要來處理。","但是今天早上，國民黨宜蘭縣黨部又被搜索，領銜人又被帶走，我不得不來這裡請教司法院跟法務部，現在詐騙案鋪天蓋地，人民的痛苦指數如此飆高，國際經濟局勢的險竣，百工百業產業無以為繼，不知何去何從，國家司法的機器卻全部聽從執政者的操弄，全面對在野黨抄家滅門。禮拜一、禮拜三本席都有登記發言，一再姑念司法院應該超然，這是皇后的貞操，一再姑念法務部回頭是岸，本席沒有來質詢。","今天早上又搜索了宜蘭縣縣黨部，表示我們吳宗憲召委排了一、三的議程，這麼多人來這裡表達正義之聲，看起來是對牛彈琴，依然故我。","請問次長，現在不管是司法雙標還是清算異己，到今天早上為止，6：0，臺南、高雄、臺北、新北、花蓮，今天是宜蘭，對在野黨政府、對在野黨黨部，抄家滅門！然後執政者提出對在野黨立委的罷免案沒有看到任何聲押、交保，甚至司法院也睡著了，也沒有任何積極辦理的行為。請問次長，為什麼到基隆去查核連署人，為什麼不是早上六點半去查核領銜人？請回答。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，基隆地檢之所以這麼做，他自己有發新聞稿去做一些澄清。我們要表示這個送達本身是合法，但是妥適性的部分，因為昨天跟今天，委員、大院或者媒體都有一些指正，現在妥適性的部分是不是要檢討，那基隆地檢應該要去……"],["傅委員崐萁：現在已經不是個案了嘛！次長，講這麼多天了，你是上級主管機關，那你在管理什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，那個……"],["傅委員崐萁：這個現在已經是通案，根本不是個案。"],["黃次長謀信：基隆地檢那個就是個案，它不是通案。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在已經是通案了，對在野黨全部不是抓人就是押人，這已經變成通案了，還在那邊鬼扯什麼叫個案！這不是通案，什麼是通案？完全同一標準，那不是通案，什麼是通案？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，它共通的標準，就是要依法行事。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席再請教一下，六點半到人家那敲門，這種政治操作，故意讓罷免藍委這些人深受其擾，群情激憤來增加罷免藍委這樣的力道，是不是你們的目的就在這裡？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我相信檢察官不可能辦案上有什麼政治上考量，他是一個個案上的考量，不是政治上考量。"],["傅委員崐萁：黃次長，本席相信你啦！但是本席也要請教，為什麼凌晨六點半去？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個個案是檢察官判斷，但因為法務部無法接觸到那個個案，關於檢察官為什麼做這樣的決定，基隆地檢署有發布新聞稿來澄清他為什麼做這樣的決定。"],["傅委員崐萁：可是鄭銘謙部長告訴我們是基隆人的生活習慣，你們是如何知道？中華民國哪一個公務機關告訴你們「基隆人的生活習慣是早上六點半，沒有去的話就會找不到人」？哪一個公務機關告訴你們？"],["黃次長謀信：因為基隆地檢署就這個個案發布了一個新聞稿澄清為什麼在六點半送達傳票這件事。"],["傅委員崐萁：為什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：它新聞稿上有一些具體說明，原則上就是因為考量民眾上班的便利性之類的。"],["傅委員崐萁：貴部會也認同，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這真的是個案，不是法務部認不認同的問題。"],["傅委員崐萁：發這種新聞稿在騙三歲小孩，貴部認不認同？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛才講就是看個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：如果貴部不認同是不是要糾正？"],["黃次長謀信：個案合法性沒有問題，但是妥適性妥不妥當、符不符合比例原則……"],["傅委員崐萁：是不是要糾正？"],["黃次長謀信：這不是糾不糾正的問題。"],["傅委員崐萁：它當然不妥適啊！不然你現在解釋那麼多幹什麼？你們做了什麼裁處嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：個案上還在偵辦，我們不……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼叫作個案？"],["黃次長謀信：基隆地檢這是個案，跟委員講……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們不裁處就是默認，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這個不會啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：那以後桃園就是五點半，新竹是凌晨四點半。如果你們放任下去就是這樣，不是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我們沒有放任，這不是我們法務部叫他這樣做，這是檢察官自己的判斷，他認為個案上要做這樣的決定。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以法務部是一個無能的法務部，完全無法約束，置若罔聞就是了，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，個案上本來就不應該來報告法務部，法務部本來就、反而不應該知道。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在已經造成社會關注了。"],["黃次長謀信：對，現在已經澄清報導了。"],["傅委員崐萁：那你的態度是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛才提的是……"],["傅委員崐萁：你剛不是說不妥適嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：妥不妥適，個案上要去檢討，但是本身……"],["傅委員崐萁：你剛剛不是講不妥適嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有說，我是說妥不妥適外界正在進行檢討。"],["傅委員崐萁：既然不妥適，那你們裁處的方式是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛才沒有說他妥不妥適。就法務部來講，我說這兩天，外界包括大院已經做相關的指正，我相信基隆地檢會做一些妥適性的檢討，我剛才是這樣跟委員回答的。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們就來看你們現在法務部在鄭銘謙部長帶領之下所型塑的通案，我們看一下法律行為的比較，關於偽造文書跟共諜，現在不是呼天搶地，從賴清德到卓榮泰，到所有的執政者都在喊抓共諜，說在野黨都是共諜？結果全部在執政黨窩裡面。請問一下，法務部是用什麼樣的標準抓到重大的共諜？抓到偽造文書，5年以下有期徒刑，在野黨要聲押；共諜案無期徒刑這種觸法，20萬交保，能不能跟全國國人說明一下？不要跟我扯個案。"],["黃次長謀信：法務部的標準非常簡單，我們的檢察官倫理規範或者法官法，甚至行政訴訟法，都要求檢察官要客觀性、中立性，這是保持我們檢察官品位的要求。法務部的標準很簡單，個案上就是依照證據，依照我們相關的法律，依法來偵辦，這就是法務部的標準。"],["傅委員崐萁：你們還在這裡侈言，是嗎？講到臉不紅、氣不喘，以後怎麼教學生？對於今天你的對答跟歷史上今天所發生的事情，你要如何面對？","請副秘書長，您代表司法院，這是法院的裁處，對在野黨有這麼多的收押，對於匪諜窩抓到匪諜，法院裁處20萬元交保，請問法院這是什麼邏輯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，那個……"],["傅委員崐萁：又是個案？"],["王副秘書長梅英：「盛礎纓共諜案」這件交保是在偵查中檢察官所做的決定，所以我們沒有辦法跟法院所做的裁處做相比較。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。次長看到沒有，司法院又把你打臉了，檢察官自己裁定20萬交保，然後其他最高本刑無期徒刑是20萬交保，對於在野黨國民黨疑似可能偽造文書是要求聲押，這就是今天檢察官很急著要升官，是嗎？急著要升官是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：檢察官辦案跟他升不升官沒有關係啊！我們檢察官辦案……"],["傅委員崐萁：他們辦過藍營的每一個都升官嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：他的歷練有一定的資歷，他不會因為辦……"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有錯，我以後再列，族繁不及備載啦！因為曉得現在內閣要改組，所以劉世芳已經搏命演出到這種情況，她說她是部長依法要告發，依法要偵辦，真的是不得了！現在每一個人都窮極要表現，去看看劉世芳所在的內政委員會，民進黨立委公然壓制公務人員不得出委員會，不得上廁所，逼得公務員直接辦理退休，這種強制行為有偵辦了嗎？次長有偵辦了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：委員講的個案，我還不了解。"],["傅委員崐萁：有偵辦了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：如果有告發……"],["傅委員崐萁：你就是化外之民。"],["黃次長謀信：不是，如果有告發……"],["傅委員崐萁：民進黨所有的惡行、惡為你都沒有看到？電視報了幾天，法務部恍然不知。"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，那也不是法務部的職掌，是檢察官的職掌。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係啦！因為那些都是現行犯。再過來，你們現在法務部鄭銘謙任內已經認證，國民黨如果疑似偽造文書是遠遠勝過共諜案，表示共諜案不重要，抓在野黨比較重要，今天調查局是哪一位？"],["吳副局長以公：報告委員，我是調查局副局長吳以公。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，副局長，本席在這裡，我也不要問你，我怕你待會又受到什麼壓力，本席要特別提醒，尤其是黃次長，要特別提醒你，全世界各個政權政黨輪替實屬必然，黃次長有可能有一天會當部長，吳以公副局長也有可能有一天會當局長，但是過程中的足跡請自己要保持乾淨，因為很簡單嘛！你看我們吳宗憲委員吳召委，誰能預測他在2028年可能是國民黨的法務部長，有很多事情會撥亂反正，「三驚二怕」啦！不是不報，時間未到，副局長請回。","次長，請教現在選罷法對於這些幽靈人口要怎麼查核？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，選罷法針對幽靈人口有特別的規定，罷免或者選舉針對虛偽遷徙戶口都有特別的規範。"],["傅委員崐萁：虛偽遷徙戶口？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：看一下這些當選無效的案件，這位臺中的里長因為幽靈人口當選無效，屏東的村長遷徙幽靈人口當選無效，再來高雄還有金門等等，這麼多當選無效是因為幽靈人口，在選罷法裡針對幽靈人口要怎麼查核？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，在實務上，我們檢察官會跟相關的戶政機關會保持一定的聯繫，也會與警察去做一些實地的查訪，看他有沒有實際居住在他設籍的所在地。"],["傅委員崐萁：戶籍機關嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：或者在相關投票行為的當天，我們會做相關的一些查證。"],["傅委員崐萁：依照戶籍法哪一條？"],["黃次長謀信：因為我不是戶政主管機關，我不知道。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，本席再告訴你，依照戶籍法第七十一條規定，戶政事務所得派員查對校正戶籍登記資料來確認是不是有實際居住的事實，這是針對反制幽靈人口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請陳主委好 有請陳主委主委你好 各位好 再三星期我們台灣就是非核家園了民進黨這幾年已經把核一廢掉了核二廢掉了 核三廠到了5月17號又廢掉了 因為這樣子"},{"start":45.253,"end":70.601,"text":"我們的台電發電成本一年要增加一千億更嚴重的 民進黨如果繼續在匯合繼續在黨重啟核電會有幾個很嚴重的後果第一個 我們電價會繼續變貴第二個 會影響到我們人民的生命跟健康因為空污越來越嚴重"},{"start":72.401,"end":97.119,"text":"核能是低碳甚至是無碳的結果現在都是用天然氣跟燒煤來取代這全台灣的民眾都是受影響的我記得執政黨包括民進黨的立委今天在這邊問政都要負很大的責任如果有人因為空污身體健康受影響生命受到影響民進黨跟民進黨立法委員要負很大的責任另外也造成我們產業的發展我們的碳費變貴了"},{"start":102.815,"end":128.987,"text":"對不對因為你燒天然氣嘛 燒煤嘛所以從剛剛講的電費從健康 生命安全一直到產業發展民進黨如果繼續在廢核在擋核能的重啟後果是非常嚴重的我記得這個全民去跟民進黨討公道好 民進黨一直在造謠今天是核安會的這個業務報告主委我請問一下"},{"start":130.506,"end":154.271,"text":"我們台灣核能到底安不安全我先給你回答之前我先給大家看一下國際原子能總署啊曾經對全世界的這個核電廠做過一個評比台灣啊是最安全的第六名對不對 四位我們核電安全是全世界有名的對不對對嘛"},{"start":157.315,"end":185.519,"text":"不只點頭 清楚跟全台灣的民眾講民進黨為了黨核能而配合一直在汙名化我們的核能安全台灣的這三座核電廠對我們經濟發展提供了多大的一個貢獻我們多少這麼好的核能的人才被你們這樣汙名化我們清清楚楚 注意 跟大家講國際原子能充足我們是全世界不只排名在第六我們的安全一直都被國際是肯定的"},{"start":187.418,"end":207.246,"text":"他做了非計劃性能力損失的這個因素啊代表一個電廠經過大修以後基礎如果再啟動是可以馬上維持這個安定滿載的電力的這個能力這個能力啊叫OUCL這個數值啊只要是越低表示它是越可靠性越高的第一個它是越安全的台灣擺大浪結果民進黨長久以來為了要肺核"},{"start":213.36,"end":235.983,"text":"汙名化我們的河岸也汙名化我們這麼多的人才剛剛在講 我們的人才都快被挖走了對不對主委要把人才留下來好不好第二個 民進黨一直說很不安全我們包括發生九一大地震我們的核電有出現問題嗎剛剛主委講了一個很重要的全世界的核能大國不管是美國 日本 法國"},{"start":237.674,"end":263.199,"text":"人家都很注意安全啊 科技一直在進步對不對而且一直有安全眼鏈嘛憑什麼說我們的核能是不安全的只是因為民進黨一直在廢了 他們還停留在上個世紀好 第二個核廢料的問題我在去年的七月份啊還實地去河山去考察他們清楚跟我講我們的燃料棒"},{"start":266.172,"end":291.12,"text":"那個注意我們燃料棒你剛講的一句話很重要燃料棒反應爐用完之後一年半用完之後拿出來就放到燃料池嘛對不對對不對河山廠清楚跟我講我們屏東還可以再用四年四到五年所以燃力是沒有問題的第二更重要的是我剛才說的啦全世界現在在處理核廢料都怎麼處理"},{"start":293.038,"end":309.22,"text":"先放燃料池對不對後來乾式慈文茶對不對美國這樣做 日本這樣做 法國這樣做全世界都這樣做和未來都沒有問題只有民進黨說有問題民進黨是什麼 警禮之蛙 偽狼自大還是禮盲 還是造謠"},{"start":314.599,"end":334.168,"text":"而且最離譜的一點民進黨把核廢料講得這麼恐怖我們問一下那目前核一廠核二廠核三廠的核廢料如果像民進黨這樣說了沒辦法處理要放倒你們不用處理嗎當然是主委講的嘛科技越來越進步而且全世界現在就放在乾式的儲存草裡面嘛對不對全世界都在那邊做"},{"start":335.674,"end":364.451,"text":"台灣當然也是這樣做啊請不要再汙名化好我簡單的因為主席已經站起來了我簡單的講幾個童子前講啊全世界都要用核能他說啊用核能可以幫台灣省下大概幾兆的經費美國鼓勵員都直接講了美國願意在核能方面幫我們全世界都在返回核能只有民進黨現在在對撞你是跟全世界潮流在對撞跟美國在對撞欸"},{"start":365.939,"end":384.764,"text":"剛核廢料我剛講過了連我問了外交部部長林佳龍他現在高官罪的這個談判啊可以找美國 美國都可以處理為什麼美國就找他們來幫我們處理核廢料嘛 對不對也是個辦法嘛 左右點頭嘛 對不對好 剛在講民意台灣民眾黨最近做了一個民調"},{"start":387.013,"end":408.707,"text":"問說要不要使用核能支持了64.5%不支持了23.8%要用著壓倒性的勝利而且我們之前還有以核揚利耶民進黨不是說要重視民意嗎 要有共識嗎所有的民調裡面每次看出來要繼續用核電都被撤過六成而且要經過公投咧好 最後我做一個簡單的這個結論昨天啊 我們的代總統說啊"},{"start":413.953,"end":429.587,"text":"不排除新的這個核能的這個技術然後他講到三個 核安 核廢料跟社會共識剛剛我 注意 我們剛剛討論完我們台灣的核安是安全的嘛 對不對這個有嘛 有解決嘛第二個核廢料可不可以處理可以處理嘛 對不對全世界都是這樣處理嘛 對不對"},{"start":434.544,"end":457.464,"text":"對不對 對嗎全世界現在會有共同的處理方式對嘛 至少兩個 我覺得你今天講的兩個很重要嘛全世界 美國 日本 法國 全世界先進國家都這樣處理第二個 科技在進步嘛甘肆村草就可以用五十年耶 對不對當然這兩個都可以處理啊 所以河岸可以處理啊 河輝道可以處理啊社會共識 每次民調都超過六成所以包括我們提的河山重啟的這個"},{"start":460.387,"end":476.627,"text":"為什麼要公投?就是要加強社會共識嘛所以這三個老蔣都不是問題最後做個結論請民進黨如果繼續你要再擋河山欸 我們修核安法球還是在民進黨的手上啊 主席你已經超過五分鐘了一分鐘 抱歉 抱歉沒有辦法 沒有辦法我講到核安法"},{"start":478.309,"end":480.992,"text":"要不要用核能還是民進黨 請民進黨想清楚你要讓電配機器找嗎 要機器強害我們的健康嗎用燃煤跟燃這個天然氣來傷害我們的健康嗎然後讓我們的產業受到衝擊嗎如果民進黨不解決 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我們請部長"},{"start":13.1,"end":36.856,"text":"委員好部長我想請教因為今天非常大的一個新聞就是衛福部在推動醫療服務國際化轉型推動計畫那從2022年開始到現在我不知道說到底成效是怎樣那我們看到今天的這一則新聞我一看到之後我就覺得非常的訝異就是說這個"},{"start":41.617,"end":66.308,"text":"這個魔法牙醫診所從這個2022年到2023年短短6個月就申請600多件就是這個從國外的民眾然後到台灣來就醫那後面發生這個問題是移民署這邊這個發現的啦那我想請教就是說衛福部這一邊針對這個計畫"},{"start":70.29,"end":90.144,"text":"從一開始到現在到底有幾個這個醫療就是醫療院所有申請再來說你們衛福部自己本身有發現這樣的一個問題到底是有幾家或者是你們完全都沒有發現然後是內政部移民署發現說這個從國外進來從中國進來的這個要來就醫的人這麼多而且這麼密集"},{"start":95.848,"end":115.455,"text":"然後才自己 移民署自己調查那你們完全都不知道嗎好 雖然的關心那個本來這個是一個好意啦 一個人道的一個主義嘛能夠必須要來台灣這麼優秀的醫療"},{"start":118.024,"end":138.709,"text":"如果能夠幫助當然也是因為這樣子所以有開放原來是衛福部在主政後來在111年剛剛你也提到就委託其實是私協來做可是你們不需要管理嗎我們提供當然要管理然後那邊是提供一個"},{"start":140.438,"end":155.871,"text":"原則給移民署那邊應該去核定去核定是同意不同意那個應該不是MET是那個移民署合併所以移民署那邊會有統計表那他在5月的時候統計出來發現這個診所這個"},{"start":159.645,"end":180.038,"text":"牙醫診所自2022年12月到5月短短的6個月就申請了600多件所以在移民署的管理小組覺得有異就戳查所以當時有沒有通知你們在他們發現有異常的時候有沒有通知你們"},{"start":181.06,"end":208.635,"text":"所以你們那時候是做什麼樣的處置我們5月17號就馬上暫停該診所的資格所以5月是2023年的5月2023年的5月一發現就停止他們在申請國外的資格到現在都沒有恢復那我想請教除了這一家魔法牙醫診所之外那還有其他的醫療院所有類似這樣的一個狀況嗎"},{"start":211.175,"end":239.803,"text":"那當然以現況來講是非常足按去好好的審查我只想要問一下就是說除了這一家那還有沒有其他家有類似這樣的一個狀況嗯 有沒有部長 另外有一家移民署也提出有一家 也有去處理嘛所以你們都是被動的被動被告知的是不是這樣子"},{"start":241.314,"end":267.33,"text":"因為申請是向移民署申請,我們給他一個規範啦就是醫療上的規範是提供給移民署去審查那現在是主案審查所以你們也是被告知被移民署告知你們,你們才知道有這樣的一個事情你們也不會自己主動去查應該是移民署收集"},{"start":269.025,"end":295.15,"text":"申請 請醫事室回答跟委員報告目前就是衛福部裡面這邊只是說醫療機構有沒有資格可以去幫就是國外的民眾申請醫療簽證那醫療簽證可可就是說我們通過醫療機構可以幫他申請這樣的醫療簽證以後他們接下來的動作就是如果說有國際的病人需求的時候他們會在移民署的網站去登錄"},{"start":297.07,"end":324.498,"text":"說哪個病人要來需要醫療簽證然後他什麼時候會到大概什麼時候期間那所以說如果說移民署發現說這個可能有一點異常的數字的時候他到時候就會通知衛福部這邊可能去共同聯合去會勘跟那個瞭解好那我要問部長除了這一家魔法牙醫診所之外那移民署這邊還有沒有告知你們還有其他的醫療院所有類似的這樣一個狀況"},{"start":326.313,"end":340.391,"text":"這幾年當中就是針對異常的部分大概是有一家是醫院有一家是另外一家診所所以到目前為止就只有三家有有類似的這樣有異常有類似這樣的一個狀況其他都還好"},{"start":341.272,"end":360.533,"text":"是確定是這樣子嗎我們目前醫療可以做醫療簽證的只有規定是28類的疾病才可以幫那個醫療機構可以幫病人簽那個醫療簽證所以目前就是已在這28個可是我們看到這個魔法牙醫診所他只是純粹牙齒的洗牙或者是美白這個也"},{"start":361.974,"end":386.395,"text":"跟委員報告不好意思就是說當初我們這28類裡面其中因為這個案件我們就是會同那個口腔師跟營醫師有重新修正這個類別更嚴謹的疾病類別裡面把它寫得更清楚所以我重新來公告這一項的牙科關於口腔的疾病別是屬於更急性而且是比較嚴重的程度之下的他才可以做這樣的醫療簽證"},{"start":388.076,"end":411.011,"text":"我今天看到這則新聞我真的是嚇一跳就是說當然是剛剛部長講的就是說這個台灣的這個醫療服務品質應該在國際上應該是數一數二的大家公認是非常好的那如果說我們在推動這個醫療服務國際化轉型推動計畫如果會有這樣的一個疑慮或者是會有國安上的問題"},{"start":413.012,"end":434.721,"text":"真的我看到這個就是說短短時間來了這個六七百人那這六七百人在這個診所上面也完全沒有病例或者病例完全是空白那怎麼可能會讓他有這樣的一個機會然後未來還讓他有這個機會再引進其他或是再繼續做這樣的一個服務所以我"},{"start":436.601,"end":457.555,"text":"這邊我是希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分未來你們要怎麼去預防或者是你們要怎麼去管理而不是這個變得完全你根本不知道他到底有沒有來做醫療好完全不知道然後病例也沒有對啊那你們怎麼可以忍受這樣子的一個你們原本是一個好意然後後來是變質的"},{"start":459.69,"end":481.038,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們每年都會不定期會同那個移民署還有那個陸委會共同去跟衛福部共同聯合一個稽查的機制去不定期去抽目前大概有一百二十九家的會員機構所以我們這個有從事這個計畫的我們會不定期的去做聯合的稽查"},{"start":481.997,"end":495.795,"text":"去抽查從此抽查病例跟現場去了解說他當初這樣的你們是現在才開始在已經在這個至少已經執行了五六年了執行五六年那是最近才有這樣子的一個狀況出現嗎"},{"start":496.977,"end":514.346,"text":"因為這個案子其實因為移民署他那邊現在都是用資訊化去做他只要是數字異常的他就會跳出來做警示所以這部分的話我們就更特別去我希望就是說這個不要變成一個國安的一個漏洞真的真的部長"},{"start":515.306,"end":532.435,"text":"是不是未來這個部分你們要怎麼去做管理雖然是一兩間診所但是我們認為非常嚴重絕對不允許有這樣情況我想我們除了希望依法原辦以外當然我們一定加緊把所有的整個流程"},{"start":533.223,"end":557.746,"text":"在做最緊密主動而不是被動的告知主動的去...我是認為你們應該自己也要做一個全面的清查有一個聯合小組那我覺得這個應該要發揮更多的對 如果說你們這樣子一個機制已經做了五六年然後你們自己本身沒有發現然後還要靠移民署通知你們的話我認為你們應該要做一個全面的清查"},{"start":559.423,"end":573,"text":"這個我想我也非常重視這個所以那個一定嚴格來執行他每一個環節讓他真的有需要的人得到照顧照顧以後"},{"start":574.702,"end":588.69,"text":"就回去 這個一個一個都要盯得很緊這樣子而且不同區域有內造的事實這個我想都要嚴格辦理所以我希望真的部長你今天講的真的說到要做到"},{"start":590.812,"end":613.126,"text":"我們是完全不能忍受你竟然來然後你是沒有從事醫療沒有什麼醫療的行為然後這個診所完全也都沒有病例或者是這個病例捏造整個文書記錄全部都捏造那你怎麼可以接受這樣的診所繼續做這樣的事情或者是醫院甚至是醫院我都覺得很壓抑"},{"start":613.706,"end":639.022,"text":"不管是整所醫院我們一定取消他的資格而且是知名的醫院你可以忍受這樣子嗎不能忍受可以提供服務的醫院很多如果有違規的我們一定嚴格辦理所以我覺得你應該是全面要趕快去做一個清查不要再有這樣的事情發生我們一定"},{"start":640.943,"end":662.404,"text":"人家檢討去把他鎖這個罪行好另外這個再給我兩分鐘的時間我問一下就是說我們一直在推動這個健康台灣那台灣的目前三高變成是國人死亡的非常重要的一個這個原因那在這個"},{"start":664.465,"end":679.25,"text":"這個我們整個死亡人數差不多有三成都因為山高的這個原因那我想請教部長就是未來我們衛福部針對這個高血壓高血糖高血脂這樣山高那你防治的目標是什麼那"},{"start":680.59,"end":700.681,"text":"有什麼樣的方式可以降低這樣的一個三高的發生那另外就是說我們在推動這個健康存摺我發現一般民眾在使用這個健康存摺可能也可能也很少人在使用這個那是不是有可能跟這個外送平台因為"},{"start":701.361,"end":717.653,"text":"國人外食的這個機會真的非常的多那有沒有可能也跟這個外送平台做一個結合就是說你透過外送平台然後你在點餐的時候你在最近這幾天你使用的這個高油高糖"},{"start":722.776,"end":745.062,"text":"這樣的類似這樣的一個食物使用了幾次那會影響健康我覺得是不是請部長你可以講一下未來怎樣去降低這個這個三高的這個部分那未來我們怎麼樣透過我們的AI的方式然後讓民眾可以更加的知道自己目前的這個健康狀況"},{"start":746.462,"end":766.331,"text":"謝謝委員這是非常重要的一件事情其實牽涉的蠻廣的我們第一個當然怎麼樣讓他生活習慣好一點這是第一個階段這個部分其實在我們的健康存摺裡面就有相關的一個指導那當然等一下可以由健保署來講健康存摺使用的人有多少"},{"start":772.547,"end":791.178,"text":"用過的人非常多但是是不是大家都熟悉去使用習慣去使用那當然又是另外一個問題第二個就是說我們在三高剛剛您提到三高是嚴重的問題所以我們譬如說我們在成人健檢部分我們就把降了10歲"},{"start":792.159,"end":812.124,"text":"所以是健康台灣非常重要的一點,因為常常到三十幾歲其實就開始有一些其實是可逆性的一些症狀那只要生活習慣改變,他的調整好,睡覺睡好一點,運動好一點,他的紅字就變成"},{"start":813.064,"end":837.281,"text":"黑字的啦 所以真的很感謝委員關心這一點那這個部分我們在健康台灣的確也增加了很多經會在做這個部分 發現了更早發現了這些問題來處理那至於說還有另外就是怎麼樣把所有檢查出來的data數據能夠匯集 這也是未來這也是行政院在大概一個禮拜"},{"start":838.061,"end":865.075,"text":"一兩個禮拜前在宴會裡面特別討論這個議題那我們希望各部門尤其是勞動部他有很多的勞工健檢的部分能夠我們有一個平台把它通通匯集起來那這樣就會來整個來瞭解來共同來推動它避免三高那至於說跟外送平台這個部分如果我們這個平台成熟以後我們當然也願意來瞭解來配合來大家增強這個照顧的實力這樣好"},{"start":867.856,"end":895.947,"text":"好,我們希望就是說,在那個部長這邊,真的努力來推動健康台灣然後將我們國人的這個三高的這個部分能夠降低,減少這個死亡率啦好不好?謝謝委員的關心,我也呼籲國人多使用我們現在健康春籌的一個,應該會有很大的幫助這樣子用呼籲的就不好啊,輸用的人就是少啊,對不對?我們呼籲兩個人,有一個人有安全"},{"start":898.456,"end":920.083,"text":"但是可能有上去,我不曉得施昭有沒有去看過自己的健康存摺所以今天我發現這陣子用覺得還蠻好用的所以請國人用,這個是我們發揮很多精神建造出來的我們希望更多的資料進來的話"},{"start":924.485,"end":929.276,"text":"更多可以幫忙促進健康的事情好 謝謝委員的指導 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時48分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教，今天有一個非常大的新聞，就是衛福部在推動醫療服務國際化轉型推動計畫，從2022年開始到現在，我不知道到底成效怎樣。我看到今天這一則新聞之後，就覺得非常的訝異，就是這個魔法牙醫診所從2022年到2023年，短短6個月就申請六百多件從國外到臺灣來就醫的案件，後面發生這個問題是移民署發現的，我想請教衛福部，這一個計畫從一開始到現在到底有幾個醫療院所有申請？再來，你們衛福部本身發現有這樣的問題的到底有幾家？或者你們完全都沒有發現，然後是內政部移民署發現從國外、從中國進來就醫的人這麼多而且這麼密集，然後才開始調查？你們完全都不知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，本來這是好意啦，基於人道主義，臺灣這麼優秀的醫療如果能夠幫助世界，當然也是因為這樣所以有開放，原來是衛福部在主政，後來在111年，剛剛你也提到，就委託私協來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是你們不需要管理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然要管理，那邊是提供一個原則給移民署核定，核定是同意或不同意，所以移民署那邊會有統計表，結果他們在5月的時候統計出來，發現這個牙醫診所自2022年12月到2023年5月，短短6個月間就申請了六百多件，移民署的管理小組覺得有異，就抽查。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以當時有沒有通知你們？他們發現異常的時候，有沒有通知你們？"],["邱部長泰源：會啊，所以……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們那時候做什麼樣的處置？"],["邱部長泰源：我們5月17號就馬上暫停該診所的資格，到現在都還沒有恢復。"],["黃委員秀芳：5月是2023年的5月？"],["邱部長泰源：對，2023年的5月。"],["黃委員秀芳：一發現就停止他們再申請國外……"],["邱部長泰源：申請的資格，到現在都沒有恢復。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，那我想請教，除了這一家魔法牙醫診所之外，那還有其他的醫療院所有類似這樣的狀況嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然以現況來講，需要逐案去好好審查啦……"],["黃委員秀芳：我只想要問一下，除了這一家以外，還有沒有其他家有類似這樣的狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：移民署有提出另外一家，也有去處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們都是被動被告知的，是不是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：因為申請是向移民署申請，我們給他一個規範，就是醫療上的規範是提供給移民署去審查，現在是逐案審查。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們也是被動被告知？移民署告知你們，你們才知道有這樣的事情，你們也不會自己主動去查？"],["邱部長泰源：應該是移民署蒐集……請醫事司回答。"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，目前衛福部只是看醫療機構有沒有資格可以幫國外的民眾申請醫療簽證，就是可以通過醫療機構幫他申請醫療簽證以後，接下來如果有國際病人有需求的時候，這些醫療機構會在移民署的網站登錄，說哪個病人需要醫療簽證，然後他什麼時候會到、大概什麼期間。如果移民署發現這個可能有一點異常的話，到時候就會通知衛福部可能去聯合會勘跟了解。"],["黃委員秀芳：我剛剛問部長，除了這一家魔法牙醫診所之外，那移民署還有沒有告知你們還有其他的醫療院所有類似的狀況？"],["郭專門委員威中：這幾年當中，就是針對異常的部分，大概有一家是醫院，有一家是另外一家診所。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以到目前為止就只有3家有異常、有類似這樣的狀況，其他都還好？確定是這樣嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：因為我們目前可以做醫療簽證的，照規定只有28類的疾病，醫療機構才可以幫病人簽醫療簽證，所以目前大部分就是以這28個……"],["黃委員秀芳：可是我們看到這個魔法牙醫診所只是純粹的洗牙或者美白。"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，當初我們這28類中，因為這個案件，我們有會同口腔司跟移民署重新修正這個類別，把它寫得更清楚、更嚴謹，並且重新公告關於口腔的疾病別，是屬於更急性而且是比較嚴重的程度之下，他才可以做這樣的醫療簽證。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我今天看到這一則新聞，真的是嚇一跳，當然剛剛部長講臺灣的醫療服務品質，在國際上應該是數一數二的，是大家公認非常好的，那如果我們在推動醫療服務國際化轉型推動計畫時會有這樣一個疑慮，或者是有國安上的問題，真的，我看到這個，就是短短時間來了六、七百人，這六、七百人在診所也完全沒有病例，或者病例完全空白，怎麼可能讓他有這樣的機會？未來還讓他再引進其他，或是繼續做這樣的服務？所以我是希望衛福部針對這部分，未來你們要怎麼去預防或管理，而不是完全不知道他們到底有沒有來做醫療，然後病例也沒有，你們怎麼可以忍受你們原本的好意後來變質了？"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，我們每年都會不定期會同移民署還有陸委會，有一個共同聯合稽查的機制，不定期去抽查，目前大概有129家的會員機構……"],["黃委員秀芳：有從事這個計畫的有129家？"],["郭專門委員威中：對，我們會不定期的去做聯合稽查，去抽查病例跟到現場去了解，他們當初這樣的……"],["黃委員秀芳：你們是現在才開始？"],["郭專門委員威中：沒有，這個至少已經執行了五、六年了。"],["黃委員秀芳：執行五、六年，那是最近才有這樣的狀況出現嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：因為這個案子其實移民署那邊現在都是用資訊化去登錄，只要是數字異常的就會跳出來警示，所以這部分我們就會更特別去……"],["黃委員秀芳：我希望這不要變成一個國安漏洞，部長，未來這部分你們要怎麼去做管理？"],["邱部長泰源：這雖然是一、兩間診所，但是我們認為非常嚴重，絕對不允許有這種情況，我們除了希望依法嚴辦以外，當然我們一定加緊把整個流程，再做最緊密、主動，而不是被動的告知，主動的去……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，我是認為你們自己也應該要做一個全面的清查。"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛說有一個稽查的聯合小組，我覺得這應該要發揮更多管理的功能，每一個案件都要確實管理。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果你們這樣的機制已經做了五、六年，然後你們自己沒有發現，還要靠移民署通知你們的話，我認為你們應該要做一個全面的清查。"],["邱部長泰源：這個一定要，我也非常重視，所以一定嚴格執行每一個環節，讓真的有需要的人得到照顧，照顧以後就回去。一個、一個都要盯得很緊，而且也不容許有捏造的事實，這個我想都要嚴格辦理。"],["黃委員秀芳：我希望部長今天講的真的要說到做到，我們是完全不能忍受，人來了竟然沒有從事醫療。沒有什麼醫療的行為，診所也完全沒有病例，或者是病例捏造，整個文書記錄全部都捏造，怎麼可以接受這樣的診所繼續做這樣的事情？甚至是醫院，我都覺得很訝異。"],["邱部長泰源：不管是診所或醫院我們一定取消他的資格。"],["黃委員秀芳：而且是知名的醫院，你可以忍受這樣子嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不能忍受，可以提供服務的醫院很多，如果有違規的我們一定嚴格辦理。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我覺得你應該要趕快全面做一個清查，不要再有這樣的事情發生。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定嚴加檢討，嚴守這個界線。"],["黃委員秀芳：再給我兩分鐘的時間，過去我們一直在推動健康台灣，目前三高變成是國人死亡一個非常重要的原因，占死亡人數差不多三成。請教部長，未來衛福部針對高血壓、高血糖、高血脂，防治的目標是什麼？有什麼樣的方式可以降低三高的發生？","另外，我們在推動健康存摺，我發現一般民眾可能也很少人在使用這個，是不是有可能跟外送平台合作？因為國人外食的機會真的非常多，有沒有可能也跟外送平台做結合，透過外送平台，在點餐的時候，譬如最近這幾天使用高油、高糖，類似這樣的食物使用了幾次，會影響健康。能否請部長講一下，未來怎樣去降低三高？怎樣透過AI的方式，讓民眾可以更加知道自己目前的健康狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，這是非常重要的一件事，其實他牽涉滿廣的，首先是如何讓民眾生活習慣好一點，這是第一個階段。這部分其實在我們的健康存摺裡就有相關的指導，等一下可以請健保署來說明。"],["黃委員秀芳：問題是健康存摺使用的人有多少？"],["邱部長泰源：用過的人非常多，但是不是大家都熟悉去使用、習慣去使用，當然這又是另外一個問題。剛剛您提到三高是嚴重的問題，所以我們在成人健檢部分調降了10歲，這也是健康台灣非常重要的一點。因為常常到三十幾歲時，其實就開始有一些可逆性的症狀，只要生活習慣改變，調整好、睡覺睡好一點、運動好一點，紅字就變回黑字了。所以真的很感謝委員關心這一點，這部分我們在健康台灣，的確也增加了很多經費在做，更早發現這些問題來處理。","另外是怎麼把所有檢查出來的data數據能夠匯集，這也是行政院在一、兩個禮拜前，在院會裡特別討論的議題。我們希望各部門，尤其是勞動部，有很多勞工健檢的部分，有一個平台能夠把他統統匯集起來，這樣就可以整體瞭解，共同來推動避免三高。至於跟外送平台的部分，如果我們這個平台成熟以後，我們當然也願意來瞭解、來配合，增強照顧大家的實力。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望部長真的努力推動健康台灣，將我們國人三高的部分降低，也減少死亡率。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，我也呼籲國人多使用健康存摺，應該會有很大的幫助。"],["黃委員秀芳：用呼籲的就沒用啊！使用的人就是很少。"],["龐副署長一鳴：每兩個人就有一個人有安裝。"],["邱部長泰源：有安裝啦！我不曉得蘇召委有沒有去看過自己的健康存摺。"],["主席：有啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我這陣子覺得還滿好用的，所以請國人用，這是我們花了很多精神建造出來的。"],["主席：半年內的data都會看到。"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望更多資料進來，可能有更多可以幫忙促進健康的事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指導。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員，謝謝部長。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接續請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e587fc9731d4b0794fdc7e49bcbcbb61fd840241ee498f319af9f7472ed2d1f4185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:52:29 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謝謝主席 我們請黃部長請部長好 委員好"},{"start":10.014,"end":34.145,"text":"好部長好我在這邊延續早上的提案說明因為其實今天修這個資通安全管理法裡面有一個很重要的就是要求公務機關不得採購跟使用危害國家安全的產品那其實在我的版本裡面有更明確的提到我們就是這個危害國家安全的資通產品到底對象是誰那我裡面是非常明確的把紅色供應鏈都寫出來"},{"start":35.225,"end":52.366,"text":"就是包括中港澳還有境外敵對勢力的產品都不能採購跟下載以及使用那所以我在這邊也想要請教我們肅發部的意見認為直接這樣子寫出來那這個條文的可行性如何"},{"start":53.394,"end":82.994,"text":"包括委員這個我想這個因為這個危害國家中心產品這個因為比如說我們今天如果跟某家某一個公司在公司是美國公司那有可能在使用過程之後他有中資入股那就變成有危害所以重點是在後面的審查就後面的使用的時候的審查檢查跟通報所以我想這個條文這樣寫當然是很好更清楚但是還不還不大夠我們後面還是有個使用跟"},{"start":84.215,"end":103.509,"text":"部長對我要跟你講一下我的版本裡面其實是包括前面他前段是寫說不得下載公務機關不得下載及使用採購這個有危害的產品以及包括中港澳其實我是把兩個項目都放進去所以不管是使用端還是前端其實都有放進去那其實我要講喔"},{"start":104.229,"end":127.89,"text":"行政院2020年其實就已經有一個函文了對不對就是直接下令公務機關原則上禁止使用及採購大陸廠牌的資通訊產品那我認為就是在這邊就是把它法制化而已所以我認為這個應該是沒有什麼意義那我希望部長可以更明確的把這個條文如果真的進到修法的時候可以把它入法OK"},{"start":129.051,"end":156.697,"text":"好 這個我們可以再好 謝謝部長那再來其實還有一點時間我要講一下另外我早上有特別提到醫療的資通安全的部分那這個是最近因為有發生過包括說二月的馬街醫院三月的彰化基督教醫院四月中壢的長盛醫院都被攻擊然後掛號失靈這個掛號失靈是醫院被迫改成人工叫號然後醫生要在那邊手寫處方然後還有八萬多人的病例疑似被外洩"},{"start":157.697,"end":185.829,"text":"那這其實是非常嚴重的事情那這個我要再講說醫院其實就是非常重要的關鍵基礎設施嘛那既然這麼重要的話除了說我知道說當時衛福部也有請我們資安署來協助對不對我們有派人進駐去看他們到底是發生什麼狀況那在這邊我想要了解一下當時這個資訊洩漏的災情到底如何那我們如何去防範那我在這邊提一下這個美國的一些例子喔"},{"start":186.129,"end":211.443,"text":"因為其實在今年二月底美國的FDA還有他們的網路安全基礎設施的設施局其實就有提到說有一款中國生產的生理監視器CMS8000就是他們的康泰克生產的那其實裡面可能有一個後門這個後門是可以把病患的資料傳輸到中國第三方大學的IP裡面"},{"start":211.923,"end":237.748,"text":"那這聽起來蠻驚悚的喔等於是說如果你用中國的這個機器他把你的生理監視的資料可以從後門偷偷的偷走那我認為在這邊要非常防範這些事情啦雖然我們不知道說二三四月發生的這一些在台灣的案例到底是純粹的駭客想要透過做一些商業上面的勒索還是他背後還有其他的意圖不得而知"},{"start":238.288,"end":248.66,"text":"那這個就是要請你們去調查的所以可不可以請我們的資安署說明一下調查出來的結果包括他的目的為何然後災情洩漏的狀況還有如何去防範"},{"start":250.073,"end":278.567,"text":"是 謝謝委員的關心那這個整個這個從2月份開始的包括說馬街張機等等的相關醫院的這些駭客入侵的這些手法那我們都發現都是屬於一個駭客組織叫做Credit Hunter這個駭客組織那這個駭客組織我們也發現裡面有一些信件好像有點簡體制這樣的一個情況因此在後來就有一些警察單位去做調查那在今年的4月2號那個刑事警察局就有發布一個新聞就是說他們破獲了這個"},{"start":279.267,"end":294.733,"text":"Credit Hunter這個駭客組織裡面有一位來自中國大陸的姓羅姓的一個駭客他是20歲左右那所以大概目前來講對於這個駭客組織已經有一些掌握跟有一些破獲那目前應該是循著這些國際的行政組織等等在相關的這個通緝這是目前對這個的一個瞭解"},{"start":301.015,"end":319.6,"text":"那另外剛剛也提到是說對這個醫院的這個防範這個熱索病毒的攻擊那目前在這幾次事件裡面我們發現還是一個終端防護的一個設施叫做EDR是最有效的防護措施那這個部分衛生部也在協助各個醫院跟廠商洽談一個比較優惠的價格來導入相關的這個終端防範的這個治安設備 以上"},{"start":322.608,"end":349.699,"text":"好 謝謝我覺得到目前是蠻完整的確實我們目前掌握到就是這個Crazy Hunter那只是說如果這個真的是如剛剛署長署長所說他背後有一些就是中國的勢力他可能是對台灣的整體防衛性的一個測試是一個壓力測試的話那這個真的不得了非常嚴重對所以這個是必須要往下追查以及相關防範的在這邊提醒好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時52分）謝謝主席，請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。我在這邊延續早上的提案說明，因為其實今天修資通安全管理法，裡面有一個很重要的部分，是要求公務機關不得採購跟使用危害國家安全的產品，其實在我的版本裡面有更明確的提到危害國家安全的資通產品到底對象是誰，我在裡面非常明確地把紅色供應鏈都寫出來，包括中、港、澳還有境外敵對勢力的產品，都不能採購、下載以及使用，在這邊我也想要請教數發部的意見，直接這樣子寫出來，這個條文的可行性如何？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，危害國家資通安全的產品，比如說今天如果跟某家公司買，這家公司是美國公司，有可能在使用之後，發現它有中資入股，就變成有危害，所以重點是在後面使用的審查、檢查跟通報，所以我想條文這樣寫當然是很好、更清楚，但是還不大夠，後面還是有個使用的審查。"],["黃委員捷：部長，我的版本裡面是包括，前段是寫說公務機關不得下載、使用及採購這個有危害的產品，以及包括中、港、澳，其實我是把兩個項目都放進去，所以不管是使用端還是前端都有放進去。行政院2020年就已經有一個函文了，對不對？就是直接下令公務機關原則上禁止使用及採購大陸廠牌的資通訊產品，我在這邊就是把它法制化而已，所以我認為這部分應該是沒有什麼疑義，我希望部長可以更明確地把這個條文，如果真的修法的時候，可以把它入法，OK？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們可以再討論。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長。再來，還有一點時間，我要講一下，我早上有特別提到醫療資通安全的部分，這是最近發生的事件，包括2月的馬偕醫院、3月的彰化基督教醫院、4月中壢的長慎醫院都被攻擊，造成掛號失靈，因為掛號失靈，醫院被迫改成人工叫號，醫生要手寫處方，還有八萬多人的病例疑似被外洩，這其實是非常嚴重的事情，醫院是非常重要的關鍵基礎設施，既然這麼重要，我知道當時衛福部也有請資安署來協助，對不對？有派人進駐，去看他們到底是發生什麼狀況，我想要了解當時資訊洩漏的災情到底如何？如何去防範？","我在這邊提一下美國的一些例子，因為在今年2月底，美國的FDA還有他們網路安全基礎設施的設施局其實就有提到，有一款康泰克生產的生理監視器CMS8000就是中國生產的，裡面可能有一個後門，從後門可以把病患的資料傳輸到中國第三方大學的IP裡面，這聽起來蠻驚悚的，等於是說如果你用中國的這個機器，它可以把你的生理監視資料偷偷從後門偷走，我認為要非常防範這件事情，雖然我們不知道2、3、4月發生在臺灣的這些案例，到底純粹是駭客想要做一些商業上面的勒索，還是他背後有其他的意圖，不得而知，這個要請你們去調查，可不可以請資安署說明調查出來的結果？包括它的目的為何、災情洩漏的狀況以及如何去防範。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員的關心，從2月份開始包括馬偕、彰基等等的醫院，這些駭客入侵的手法，我們發現都是屬於一個駭客組織，叫做Crazy Hunter，也發現這個駭客組織裡面有一些信件好像有簡體字的情況，因此後來檢調單位有去調查，在今年的4月2號刑事警察局有發布一個新聞，他們破獲Crazy Hunter這個駭客組織，裡面有一位來自中國大陸的羅姓駭客，他是二十歲左右，目前對於這個駭客組織已經有一些掌握跟破獲，並循著國際的行政組織在做相關的通緝，這是目前的瞭解。","另外，剛剛也提到醫院對於勒索病毒攻擊的防範，在這幾次事件裡面，我們目前發現終端防護的設施叫做EDR還是最有效的防護措施，這個部分衛福部也在協助各個醫院跟廠商洽談一個比較優惠的價格，來導入相關終端防範的資安設備，以上。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，我覺得到目前是蠻完整的，確實我們掌握到就是這個Crazy Hunter，如果真的如剛剛署長所說，它背後有一些中國的勢力，這可能是對臺灣整體防衛性的一個壓力測試，這個真的不得了，非常嚴重。"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們加強防護。"],["黃委員捷：所以這部分必須要往下追查以及做相關的防範，在這邊提醒，謝謝部長。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","王美惠、王美惠，王美惠委員不在。","李柏毅、李柏毅，李柏毅委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","葛如鈞、葛如鈞，葛如鈞委員不在。","張啓楷、張啓楷，張啓楷委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","登記委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員邱鎮軍所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請數位發展部及相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e587a861c29e0f4ee8dc7e49bcbcbb61fd840241ee498f319a91b1f0c7435980ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:28:41 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邀請我們黃部長跟蔡署長請部長還有蔡署長"},{"start":12.391,"end":39.523,"text":"兩位午安今天討論到這個治安法嘛那一個法令訂定之後很重要的就是落地嘛那落地裡面就是執行就是我們的法令裡面有明確的規範到我們一些公務機關或者是非公務機關的特定機關必須要有自通安全的專責人員那我們有評估過在這個法令通過之後會衍生出多少的一個自通安全人員需要去補"},{"start":41.5,"end":66.08,"text":"不含現在缺的啦,就是未來衍生新增的需求我們有一個統計大臣謝謝委員,就剛剛所提到的部分因為這個目前我們對治安人員的專職人員的配置公共機關的話是A級機關要配置四位專職人員B級是兩個,C級是一個那D跟E他可以不需要配置,因為他比較簡單這個是目前,那目前所缺人治安專職人員大概是239人"},{"start":68.26,"end":84.847,"text":"新增的需要新增的239人需要新增含非公務機關如果說未來如果是新增加所管的非公務機關的話可能會比這個還更多所以二三級是公務機關"},{"start":88.115,"end":115.341,"text":"12345目前是分ABCDE剛剛您講的就是公務機關嘛239那非公務的你們還沒有統計出來現在的法令沒有去要求非公務機關要設置專職人員那新法通過之後就會要求那個對所以我才講落地嘛就是法令通過之後落地之後非公務機關的特殊機關需要多少人你們現在還沒統計出來目前還沒有統計出來因為法還沒有通過"},{"start":116.521,"end":141.99,"text":"你們應該會算法過了之後要多少人你們要先算出來才知道這法定的有沒有辦法實際去執行啊因為他們目前有些機關他們其實都有配置專職的治安人員啊這個他們也有配置那我們還沒有去精算說新法通過之後目前會缺多少好了你們應該是要早一點去算好需要多少人然後之後才會像現在既有的缺多少然後未來新增的需求是多少你才能夠去協助機關補足嘛"},{"start":142.93,"end":166.498,"text":"那我確認一下機關的資通安全的專職人員他可能會去兼其他的業務嗎還是他就專職在資安的業務如果是專職的話就是說他只能做資安的工作那專職的話他就可以做其他資訊的工作等等的就是資通訊相關的工作那可能資安只是他工作的一個部分對"},{"start":167.585,"end":195.315,"text":"好 那這個討論到資安的這個部分其實它有點像是網路的一個警察的一個概念啦那每個機關可能配置幾個人那每個機關的大小業務性質不太一樣那其實可能也會衍生出同工不同酬的一些問題啦你們有沒有考慮過既然它是一個類似警察的一個概念因為現在像是我們社會的警察我們像立法院或者是其他單位有需要"},{"start":196.894,"end":224.076,"text":"這個安全防護的時候我們會請警政署協助嘛就會派出人員那如果說是比較沒有那麼高強度的一個維安需求的話機關他可能就是委託保全公司來做一個基本的一個管理那我覺得網路安全的部分也有點類似的概念如果說是我們比較需求比較低的那他就可能委託資安公司來做維安管理那比較需求的那目前我們的狀態是每個機關都要去自己設置人員我們有考慮過"},{"start":225.277,"end":243.326,"text":"我們的資安署就類似警政署這樣的概念來統籌所有需要的人員因為我們資安人員不一定要在現場吧資安人員原則上都是在網路上面操作那每個機關去派駐的一個意義好像相對於警政機關來講的話更不需要在每個機關裡面去派駐我們都討論過這件事情"},{"start":246.164,"end":274.932,"text":"是 跟委員報告大概就是兩個角度去想這是一個聯防的角度就是剛剛委員講的可能有一些機關他是低級或一級或是西級他的這個防護需求沒有那麼的需求那麼高那我們透過像一些聯防的機制來協助這個部分例如說我們盡量是用像GSN像政府機關來講GSN這邊政府的網路裡面的一些相關的一些攔阻或是防護部分來協助他們這個部分那是透過誰"},{"start":275.692,"end":295.572,"text":"你說的聯防我們在治安院這邊我們跟這個訴訟室這邊有一個接生那這邊可以對政府的網路做一些防護的一些相關的措施所以我們這邊有一批人然後可以協助比較對技術上面的協助對對對就是有什麼問題可以協助他們是需要的時候另外一個是目前的法令規定裡面就是說假設你機會裡面沒有"},{"start":298.194,"end":307.156,"text":"可以拚到足夠的專職人員的話你可以用委外人員暫時來替代那這個也可以補足目前治安人力不足的一個需求"},{"start":307.805,"end":333.396,"text":"對 那我想說就是我們有沒有辦法像警慎署這樣子把所有的資安人員都我們就編列在我們資安署裡面然後協助各個機關來做資通訊的一個安全的維護不管是我們人類的調度還是我們相關人員的待遇編制工作時數等等的都在同一個部會裡面相對起來它是比較會穩定然後你可以跨機關去支援譬如說你剛剛講某一個機關四個人"},{"start":335.237,"end":355.878,"text":"那可能突然遭遇到大量攻擊的時候他四個人不一定有辦法負荷嘛那如果說我們通通在資安署裡面的話那我們就可以很輕鬆的去調派啊我剛剛要請教的就是這個東西謝謝委員 這個的確是一個蠻好的一個方向啦就是說假設人力可以集中的話不管是教育訓練專業技能的提升我覺得這是一個蠻好的一個想法"},{"start":356.258,"end":368.044,"text":"但是因為這整個治安人力一條邊涉及到人事人種等等相關的一些法令規定的這個體制那後續是不是容我們在後續研究那也要跟那個人事總書這邊在相關的溝通對所以這個當然還牽涉到我們人事組織法的一個問題啦所以說署長這邊也是認為如果說能夠一條邊那由我們這邊治安署統一來做一些管理跟協助機關做治安安全的話"},{"start":381.651,"end":396.602,"text":"會是一個比較有效率的一個方式嗎對 這個同意 但是這個牽涉到組織法的調整好 沒關係 如果說我們的目標一致的話那我希望說後續我們需要提出修法的部分還是需要跟跨級官員的部分讓大家一起來努力 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時28分）謝謝主席，邀請黃部長及蔡署長。"],["主席：請部長及蔡署長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位午安。今天討論資安法，一個法令訂定之後，很重要的就是落地，落地就是執行，也就是法令裡面有明確規範到一些公務機關或者是非公務機關的特定機關必須要有資通安全的專責人員。請問你們有評估過在這個法令通過之後，會衍生出多少的資通安全人員需要去補嗎？不含現在缺的，是未來衍生新增的需求。"],["黃部長彥男：我們有一個統計，我請署長說明。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員，就剛剛所提到的部分，目前我們對於資安專職人員的配置，若是公務機關，A級機關要配置4位專職人員、B級是2個、C級是1個，D跟E可以不需要配置，因為它比較簡單，目前所缺的資安專職人員大概是239人。"],["廖委員先翔：需要新增的？"],["蔡署長福隆：對，需要新增的有239人。"],["廖委員先翔：需要新增的，含非公務機關？"],["蔡署長福隆：未來如果是新增所管的非公務機關的話，可能會比這個還更多。"],["廖委員先翔：所以二三級是公務機關？"],["蔡署長福隆：我們目前是分A、B、C、D、E五個等級。"],["廖委員先翔：對，剛剛您講的就是公務機關嘛。"],["蔡署長福隆：對，公務機關。"],["廖委員先翔：239？"],["蔡署長福隆：對。"],["廖委員先翔：非公務的你們還沒有統計出來？"],["蔡署長福隆：因為現在的法令沒有去要求非公務機關要設置專職人員，新法通過之後就會要求……"],["廖委員先翔：對，所以我才講落地嘛，就是法令通過之後、落地之後，非公務機關的特殊機關需要多少人，你們現在還沒統計出來？"],["蔡署長福隆：目前還沒有統計出來，因為法還沒有通過。"],["廖委員先翔：你們應該會算法過了之後要多少人，你們要先算出來才知道這個法令有沒有辦法實際去執行啊！"],["蔡署長福隆：因為目前有些機關其實都有配置專職的資安人員，這個他們也有配置，我們還沒有去精算新法通過之後會缺多少……"],["廖委員先翔：好啦，你們應該是要早點去算好需要多少人，然後才會知道現在既有的缺多少、未來新增的需求是多少，你才能夠去協助機關補足。我確認一下，機關的資通安全專職人員，他可能會去兼其他的業務嗎？還是他就專職在資安的業務？"],["蔡署長福隆：如果是專責的話，他只能做資安的工作，專職的話就可以做其他資訊的工作等等。"],["廖委員先翔：就是資通訊相關的工作，可能資安只是他工作的一個部分？"],["蔡署長福隆：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好，討論到資安的這個部分，其實它有點像是網路警察的概念，每個機關配置幾個人，每個機關的大小、業務性質不太一樣，其實可能也會衍生出同工不同酬的一些問題，你們有沒有考慮過，既然它是一個類似警察的概念，因為像立法院或者是其他單位有需要安全防護的時候，我們會請警政署協助，它就會派駐人員。如果是比較沒有那麼高強度的維安需求的話，機關可能就是委託保全公司來做基本的管理，我覺得網路安全的部分也有點類似這個概念，如果是需求比較低的，它可能就委託資安公司來做維安管理；比較有需求的，目前我們的狀態是每個機關都要自己設置人員，你們有沒有考慮過，資安署就類似警政署這樣的概念，來統籌所有需要的人員，因為資安人員不一定要在現場，資安人員原則上都是在網路上面操作，相對於警政機關來講，更不需要在每個機關裡面去派駐，你們有沒有討論過這件事情？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告，大概就是從兩個角度去想，這是一個聯防的角度，這是剛剛委員講的，可能有一些機關是D級、E級或是C級，它的防護需求沒有那麼高，我們透過一些聯防的機制來協助這個部分。像政府機關來講，透過GSN政府網路裡面一些相關的攔阻或是防護的部分來協助他們。"],["廖委員先翔：那是透過誰？你說的聯防。"],["蔡署長福隆：在資安院這邊，我們跟數政司有一個GSN，可以對政府的網路做一些防護的相關措施。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們這邊有一批人，可以協助級數比較低的？"],["蔡署長福隆：對，技術上面的協助，就是看有什麼問題，需要的時候可以協助他們。另外一個是目前的法令規定，假設機關裡面沒有聘到足夠的專責人員，可以用委外人員暫時替代，這個也可以補足目前資安人力不足的需求。"],["廖委員先翔：對，你們有沒有辦法像警政署這樣，把所有的資安人員編列在資安署裡面，協助各個機關來做資通訊的安全維護？不管是人力的調度，還是相關人員的待遇、編制、工作時數等等，都在同一個部會裡面，相對起來，他是比較穩定的，然後你可以跨機關去支援，譬如你剛剛講某個機關是4個人，可能突然遭遇到大量攻擊的時候，4個人不一定有辦法負荷，而如果是統統在資安署裡面的話，那就可以很輕鬆地去調派，我剛剛要請教的就是這個東西。"],["蔡署長福隆：是，謝謝委員，這個的確是一個滿好的方向，假設人力可以集中的話，不管是教育訓練、專業技能的提升，我覺得這是一個滿好的想法，但是因為整個資安人力是一條鞭，涉及到人事、人總等等相關的一些法令規定、體制，是不是容我們後續再研究，也要跟人事總處再進行相關的溝通。"],["廖委員先翔：對，這個當然還牽扯到人事組織法的問題，所以部長這邊也是認為如果能夠一條鞭，由你們資安署統一來做一些管理跟協助機關做資安的話，會是一個比較有效率的方式嘛。"],["黃部長彥男：對，這個同意，但這個確實牽涉到組織法的調整，要再跟人總討論一下。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，如果我們的目標一致的話，我希望後續不管是我們需要提出修法的部分，還是需要跟跨機關協調的部分，大家一起來努力。以上，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請陳素月委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5e478507f557b80aedc7e49bcbcbb61fd840241ee498f319a73d84130179852065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:20:06 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謝謝主席 主席我們請數位部黃部長請部長"},{"start":11.275,"end":33.789,"text":"部長好部長我想今天我們討論的是這個自動安全管理法修法的問題那我想這個有一個條文我想跟這個部長來討論一下我想除了院版之外有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考包含說國務卿委員提的這個版本裡面的13條公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品把它入法"},{"start":34.549,"end":55.783,"text":"因為這個是本來就從你們這個13條從數位部訂定的這個各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則而來我想這13條的來源在這邊就是從你們這個數位部訂定的這個規範只是因為現階段我想這現行對於這相關的特定廠商的特定品牌有這個限制是用所謂的法規命令"},{"start":56.423,"end":75.315,"text":"那是不是有機會把它提升到這個母法的程式那詳細的這個規定我再把它定於執法當中會比較妥適比如說今年二月的時候我想這個我們卓院長有提到說宣布這公共機關全面禁用Deep-seek這個AI來確保我們的國家自動安全但是"},{"start":76.363,"end":102.289,"text":"之所以要禁用公共機關禁用Deep-Seek的原因就是因為他們可能有擔心說這個很多資料會上傳給中共讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊那如果既然是這樣子那有這樣子的事情發生那是不是應該把我剛提到的以剛剛盧君委員那13條應該把它訂到法律的位階跟層次而不是只是純單純用這個命令來做你院本來有沒有辦法採納這個這樣的做法"},{"start":105.75,"end":131.91,"text":"我們就是把原來的行政命令變成立法 放在法就是危害國家資產安全產品至於說它的定義因為這個產品的變化跟那個非常快我們沒辦法給到一個非常清楚的定義因為我們只能從審查跟檢驗跟最後的通報去做隨時的update如果一個產品而且現在有可能是稀產地也有可能這公司原來不屬於中國公司後來賣給中國公司"},{"start":132.711,"end":153.368,"text":"中國公司有太多可能變化所以沒有辦法定的很清楚說什麼樣叫不行但是我們是會隨時的去審查跟那個通報機制就是發現這個產品有問題我們馬上就通報然後就開始再由這個將根據這個治安法來禁用這些這些設備或產品部長當然就是說"},{"start":154.469,"end":170.819,"text":"產品不斷推陳出新啦所以是不是隨時要變動隨時更新那個清單那當然是用授權的那我現在要確認說像剛剛我提到這個第13我們葛國勛委提的那第13條他把這個公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國際自動安全產品的這個文字"},{"start":172.321,"end":191.033,"text":"明文的這個條文放進母法裡面原版現在有放進去嗎 放了沒對 報告委員就是說基本上我們Care是使用的因為採購採購這個東西就像講因為你買了一個公司原來這個公司不屬於中國公司就是說不能只看採購的公司因為公司有可能會"},{"start":192.174,"end":211.553,"text":"就是中資會入股所以我說採購最主要是後面的使用所以只要使用我們先定義我們先有個機制來定義什麼叫做來找出危害國家資本產品的是有哪些然後再去限制它的使用定義是執法啊對我來講定義是後面的事情嘛那我現在講的說"},{"start":212.774,"end":231.749,"text":"你們的條文裡面就是真正的院版條文最後出來了因為現在還在討論嘛那只是說院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的這個把他明文假設你說好採購沒有那下載安裝使用咧我們是使用跟下載跟安裝但是採購沒有在上面好那這樣有共識啦這樣OK院版有嗎"},{"start":232.629,"end":249.174,"text":"原版有使用而已那下載安裝呢你要使用前提要下載安裝啊你要前面就先阻止啦因為原版有使用下載跟那比如說比如這樣講以Deep-seek為例我們就舉具體案例Deep-seek你當然沒有採購它嘛但是"},{"start":250.254,"end":273.108,"text":"我們的就是公務機關不得使用也不得下載嘛那我就說你就是應該把這個所謂下載跟使用下載跟安裝本身就先放在魔法裡面那當後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例那個是當然你們隨時去滾動檢討嘛case by case對啊好不好這個部分我提醒一下應該把它放到這個條文裡面要增加就是安裝跟下載這個部分再來提到這個"},{"start":274.868,"end":288.504,"text":"現行的條文裡面院版裡面的條文裡面有講到說第四條提升自動安全政府要提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民的自動安全意識所以這邊的重點在提升全民之安不是針對產業而已因為"},{"start":290.626,"end":306.61,"text":"如果按照現行法令我們看起來很像其實相關的法律都在從這個產業面來出手產業面來在關注產業面但是對於真正的全民我們剛剛提到全民的定義我們看這個數據你看詐騙的部分各自大約24%然後購物詐騙15% 企業冒名13%還有我們國內發卡銀行詐欺的通報金額也是逐年在"},{"start":313.203,"end":324.36,"text":"整體比例是上升的狀況就比如說全民對於治安的意識好像不太足夠那當然你們把母法裡面訂的這一條說要主動來全民可是你從真正在執行面上"},{"start":325.779,"end":345.987,"text":"比較像是從這個企業 從產業的角度在你們執行的時候但問題是從這個教育 國中小高中教育等等的部分好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為那我不知道數位部隊這事情怎麼處理因為公司大家要可能為了公司的這個資產要保護都沒問題嘛"},{"start":347.708,"end":362.304,"text":"但問題是今天大家為什麼有這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易被騙到手那麼容易的在新的通訊軟體裡面自己把自己的個資提供出去那這就代表我們全民的資產意識就不足啊那你這個條文"},{"start":364.186,"end":385.142,"text":"第四條訂了這樣子的東西但後續的相關的做法裡面好像沒有特別提到這個事情部長就是我們那個原來就是在第四條有講說我們要做一個單是人才培育嘛對然後再來就是說我們會加強一些跟產學研的合作然後就用這個產學研合作跟國際交流然後再來就是對這個有一些這個規範"},{"start":388.624,"end":400.455,"text":"不過就是不管怎樣就是我們會從教育面從這個推動裡面再去加強全民對治安對部長我的意思就是這樣你們第四條的確寫了剛剛是1234嘛那你看1234我們講真的1234針對的基本上都是所謂專業人才"},{"start":405.6,"end":432.577,"text":"好 針對產業界那我今天講的因為我們今天這個是要提升全民自動安全意識他的精神是在全民所以不是只有產業因為你這個專業人才培育啦然後產學合作啦 國際交流多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討的什麼國際交流他也不會是專業人才像我以本席為例我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護"},{"start":433.658,"end":456.517,"text":"因為在這個願滿條文裡面你們是沒有提到一般民眾的喔你們真的比較像是專業人才喔所以我要說在這個部分的話應該要去針對全民去做個提升不能只是針對專業部分而已啊部長我們這個委員的建議很好我們在我想我們在這邊在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識我們會有一些方案來協助包括一些宣導或是一些在利用"},{"start":456.957,"end":478.46,"text":"我們具體建議啦 你們應該還要去找教育部啦教育部到底我們的教材裡面 我們在平常的學校 校園裡面或是說像我們的那個叫什麼那個地方叫社會局當然我們就內政部等等的各單位針對長照 針對長輩很多的地方這部分都應該去做 而不是只有"},{"start":479.682,"end":493.174,"text":"學不是只有專業人才就是學校從小啊以及我們長輩這邊他們可能對於這個科技更新而速度沒這麼快的部分應該有一處理因為其實被詐騙很多是這些人啊好不好我們會再看部長謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時20分）謝謝主席。主席，請數位部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，今天我們討論的是資通安全管理法的修法問題，有一些條文我想跟部長討論一下，除了院版之外，有些委員提出的版本我想提出來給大家參考，包含葛如鈞委員所提版本的第十三條，將「公務機關不得採購、下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品」入法，這第十三條是從數位部訂定的「各機關對危害國家資通安全產品限制使用原則」而來，第十三條的來源在這邊，就是從數位部所訂定的規範而來，只是現階段對於相關特定廠商的特定品牌有所限制是用所謂的法規命令，是不是有機會把它提升到母法的層次？詳細的規定再把它訂定於子法當中會比較妥適。比如今年2月的時候，卓院長有提到已宣布公務機關全面禁用DeepSeek AI以確保國家資通安全，之所以公務機關禁用DeepSeek的原因，是因為他們可能擔心很多資料會上傳給中共，讓他們掌握到我們內部的資訊。既然有這樣子的事情發生，是不是應該把我剛剛提到的葛如鈞委員所提的第十三條訂定到法律的位階跟層次？而不是只單純用命令來做，院版有沒有辦法採納這樣的作法？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們就是把原來的行政命令變成法，就是危害國家資通安全產品，至於它的定義，因為產品變化非常快，我們沒辦法給予一個非常清楚的定義，我們只能從審查、檢驗到最後的通報去做隨時的update，如果一個產品……而且現在有可能是洗產地，也有可能這個公司原來不屬於中國公司，後來賣給中國公司，有太多可能的變化，所以沒有辦法訂定得很清楚說什麼樣是不行，但是我們會隨時去審查，也有通報機制，就是發現這個產品有問題，我們馬上就通報，然後就可以根據資安法來禁用這些設備或產品。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，產品不斷推陳出新，所以隨時變動、隨時更新那個清單當然是用授權的，只是我現在要確認的是，像剛剛我提到的葛如鈞委員所提的第十三條，他將「公務機關不得採購、下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品」的文字明文地放進母法裡面，院版現在有放進去嗎？放了沒？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，基本上我們care的是使用，採購這部分就像我剛才講的，因為這個公司不確定是否屬於中國公司，所以不能只看採購，因為公司有可能中資會入股，因此我認為最主要的是後面的使用，只要使用部分我們先定義，先有個機制來找出危害國家資通安全產品有哪些，然後再去限制它的使用。"],["黃委員健豪：定義是子法啊！定義是後面的事情，而我現在講的是，在你們的條文裡面……因為現在還在討論，那最後院版的條文裡面會不會有相關的？你說採購沒有，那下載、安裝、使用呢？"],["黃部長彥男：我們是使用、下載及安裝，但是採購沒有在上面。"],["黃委員健豪：好，這樣有共識，這樣OK！院版有嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：院版有使用。"],["黃部長彥男：院版有使用。"],["黃委員健豪：有使用而已，那下載、安裝呢？使用的前提是要下載、安裝啊！要在前面就先阻止。"],["黃部長彥男：院版有使用、下載及安裝。"],["黃委員健豪：我們就舉具體案例DeepSeek，你當然沒有採購它，但是我們的公務機關是不得使用也不得下載，所以我的意思是你應該把下載跟安裝先放在母法裡面，後續誰是屬於這樣子的案例，那當然是你們隨時去滾動檢討的嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：case by case。"],["黃委員健豪：對，好不好？這個部分我提醒一下，應該把它放到這個條文裡面，要增加安裝跟下載的部分。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，現行的條文裡面，院版條文第四條提到「為提升資通安全，政府應提供資源，整合民間及產業力量，提升全民資通安全意識」，這邊的重點在提升全民資安，不是針對產業而已，如果按照現行法令，我們看起來相關的法令都在關注產業面，但是對於真正的全民，我們剛剛提到全民的定義，我們看那個數據，詐騙手法部分，個資盜用24%、購物詐騙15%、企業冒名13%，以及國內發卡銀行詐欺通報金額的整體比例是上升的狀況，這表示全民對於資安的意識好像不太足夠。當然你們在母法裡面訂定了這一條說要著重在全民，可是你們在真正的執行面上，比較像是從企業、產業的角度來看，問題是國中小、高中教育等等的部分，好像在現行的條文裡面並沒有看到這方面的作為，我不知道數位部對這個事情怎麼處理，因為大家可能為了要保護公司的資產，那都沒問題，但問題是現今為什麼這麼多人的個資能夠這麼容易地被騙到手？那麼容易地在新的通訊軟體裡面把自己的個資提供出去？這就代表我們全民的資安意識不足啊！你們在第四條訂定了這樣子的條文，但後續相關的作法好像沒有特別提到這個事情耶！部長。"],["黃部長彥男：我們在第四條有講到我們要做人才培育，然後我們會加強跟產、學、研的合作，最後再用產、學、研的合作來跟國際交流，再來是對一些的規範……不管怎樣，我們會從教育面、從推動面再去加強全民的資安意識。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我的意思是這樣，你們第四條的確寫了，剛剛那是一、二、三、四嘛！我們講真的，一、二、三、四基本上針對的都是所謂的專業人才、針對產業界，而我今天講的，因為這個是要提升全民資通安全意識，它的精神在全民，所以不是只有產業，因為你提到專業人才培育，然後產學合作、國際交流，但多數的普羅大眾不可能去參加資安研討或國際交流，他們也不會是專業人才，以本席為例，我就不可能是資安的專業人才嘛！但是我們要怎麼樣增進一般民眾對資安的意識跟保護，因為在院版條文裡面，你們是沒有提到一般民眾，你們提到的真的比較像是專業人才。所以我要說的是，關於這個部分，應該針對全民去做提升，不能只是針對專業部分而已，部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員的建議很好，在全民怎麼樣提升安全意識的部分，我們會有些方案來協助，包括一些宣導或是一些再利用……"],["黃委員健豪：我們具體建議，你們應該還要去找教育部，教育部到底……"],["黃部長彥男：我們會宣導，然後……"],["黃委員健豪：在教材裡面、在校園裡面，或者地方的社會局，又或者內政部等等各單位，針對長照、針對長輩很多的地方……"],["黃部長彥男：我們會去宣導。"],["黃委員健豪：這部分都應該去做，而不是只有專業人才，也就是從學校、從小，以及長輩的部分，他們可能對於科技更新的速度沒有這麼快，你們應該也要去處理，因為其實被詐騙的有很多是這些人，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員建議，我們會再看……"],["黃委員健豪：部長謝謝、主席謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5e9f748b284c240a0dc7e49bcbcbb61fd840241ee498f319ad60c73881cc9b1c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:08:18 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你是5月份嗎 520之後跟新政府團隊來入閣的請教一下這幾年有什麼變化是不是新舊部長有什麼不同的一個看法首先我們在去年預算中心針對112年你們數位部針對於抽冊"},{"start":36.678,"end":53.396,"text":"抽測了我們大概15到24個公務機關就來協助也是來了解現在一般的公務的機關它到底治安的品質如何所以在112年的時候主要檢測的方向分成技術檢測跟實地檢測那這時候在檢測的過程其中第一項技術檢測"},{"start":60.017,"end":73.241,"text":"有15個機關其中有13個機關它連基本的未落實電腦安全的更新update都沒做這是當年這是其中一個就檢測的一個項目所以比例高達86%缺失的機關第二個實例檢測也針對24個公務機關"},{"start":81.844,"end":95.161,"text":"其中有17個也出現了治安上面的一個漏洞所以缺失率達到70%這個是立法院的你們提供給立法院112年的資料不是我個人收集的然後我們"},{"start":96.516,"end":118.626,"text":"再請教113年也結束了請教113年呢狀況如何呢因為通常這種KPI每一年比較數據管理是你比較容易了解我也比較清楚當然這有兩個部分對於舊的問題如何改善要去追蹤譬如說這些被檢查過的公務機關有問題了不能擺明還要去"},{"start":119.386,"end":136.536,"text":"review看能不能改善這個部分是一個部分我跟你們調資料你們有說持續去追蹤那我們再問113年對於新的一些公務機關在展開第二波因為公務機關那麼多112年只有15個嘛你們新的機關"},{"start":138.406,"end":150.62,"text":"有沒有去做那到底是什麼狀況部長你說一下對於新的機關做了幾個他的新的技術檢測跟實力檢測的比例缺失比例如何"},{"start":152.494,"end":175.496,"text":"剛剛委員報告就是剛剛委員所關心的這個集合結果那113年我們也是一樣也是40個的這個政府機關坐實地的這個集合那集合的情況就如委員這邊所提到的我們有一些包括在這個整個技術上面的一些檢測跟相關的一些方面我們發現是有些提升那有些缺點的確是有一些要再改進的地方"},{"start":176.997,"end":196.864,"text":"蘇長請問一下我們這邊列的這你給我的嘛三項明顯進步事項跟顯著提升有兩項那是他比較基礎是什麼因為提升嘛就表示他原本在這裡提升了你是針對於112年這些檢查過的公務機關再去了解他有明顯的進步是不是"},{"start":198.147,"end":216.003,"text":"我們並沒有相同 我們並不是在做比較我們是針對不同的機關做集合所以113年所集合的單位並不是112年的單位那你們113年不同的機關你們有去集合幾個機關40個40個機關嘛4個機關那技術檢測的缺失率大概是多少"},{"start":224.117,"end":243.366,"text":"因為技術的檢測其實就是有一些需要再改善的地方就是剛剛委員所提到的我們包括說像我們對這個網域、網路、資料庫還有一些核心的系統等等的我們都要做一些檢測那每個機關我們檢測完之後就會提供它檢測的一些相關缺失的地方部長、署長"},{"start":245.507,"end":273.521,"text":"我覺得有點奇怪了 何必呢都有進步嘛 就缺失率現在一展現出來今年只有32%哇 大家給你掌聲啊有這麼辛苦嗎我跟你講 你向德等於說讓一件事情任何人要從KPI數據上面去比較你把它複雜化 你把它倒過來你做數據的人 做數位的人把它倒過來變一些形容詞來去講因為有什麼 有進步 有提升"},{"start":274.381,"end":290.492,"text":"我就覺得我是希望我就不想耽誤這時間在這裡我希望113年能夠具體化一個數據出來是好是壞你們自己知道也大家都知道逐步改善就好了好不好部長能不能把它一致化再提供數字給委員"},{"start":291.294,"end":314.751,"text":"好的 第二個部長這個資安的人力荒是讓你們成立一個比較新成立的一個機關要搶人第二個呢你們又要非常專業的人其實沒有很容易啦我們都知道但是你們在訂的相關的一些法規就像今天又要修法嘛那修完的法你們訂的一些規則就是要落實嘛不然訂一些法是不是給民眾看的所以我們自己要先要落實嘛相關的"},{"start":315.672,"end":335.225,"text":"一些機關他必須要有專職的治安人力這是你們的一個規定而且也是你們的業管範圍但我們看得到一樣112年112年中央對於應有的你們法令規定的還缺六十六人占整個中央機關應有的專職治安人員大概缺8.4%看起來不到10%地方比較嚴重"},{"start":343.45,"end":371.239,"text":"地方確認23.1%這是112年的數據那接下來我們又跟應該是治安署吧說那113年呢113年我覺得要進步嘛就一樣你給我看一個數據減少了對不對優化了問題收斂了大家會給你肯定嘛數據就會說話就問你們你知道怎麼說嗎不知道部長知不知道你們跟我們回答說113年的資料"},{"start":372.239,"end":381.489,"text":"還在填報作業中14年的4月你們一個講究效率的你跟我講還在填報我覺得好奇怪你知道嗎"},{"start":383.783,"end":409.181,"text":"一個蘿蔔一個坑到底多少人你一個時間點去年的12月31號截止還有人就有人沒人就沒有人嘛上個月補的不算怎麼會統計不出來就是所以跟剛剛一樣拜託一下好不好就是說這一定統計出來的這個部分你要看我也要看大家治安的一個各單位從中央到地方有沒有做好這個我也希望部長去注意一下"},{"start":409.981,"end":431.772,"text":"再來就是既然缺人缺這麼多我們看到左下角這個我們職區就提報現在這個針對一一三年公務人員有新開缺高考三級就特別之通安全的內科也開缺了那有各地報缺因為我們看到報缺的數額也非常低"},{"start":432.893,"end":459.913,"text":"部長你們回答就一句話是不是大家到底中央地方在不在乎資安專業人力這個事情你的感覺報告委員我們這個資安人員的任用有幾個管道一個當然就是從所謂轉職系就是說從既有的公務人員在做訓練希望他們轉成資安人員那這個大概會原來預定目標是一千人那目前已經訓練了兩三百人那預計今年至少會有四百五十個人"},{"start":460.433,"end":484.2,"text":"那當然就是因為這樣關係所以直接從高考進來目前各地方各個單位提報人是比較少不過我們會加強宣傳也就是說這個東西這個這種新的管道應該也是一個很好的一個管道來對我們資安能力的方這個資安能力方能夠有補助所以這個我們會加強宣導然後希望也許未來在這方面的這個高考這個資安通安全類課的"},{"start":485.02,"end":509.579,"text":"的職缺能夠多一點不過我們現在還是主要是靠內部的所謂的資安人員的這個轉職系的一些訓練目前是以這個方式在進行好 部長 署長我語重心長因為所謂資安嘛就從另外一個角度影響資安的人跟物還有softwareAI它的一個進步的速度是用飛的我感覺你們在處理這些事情每一年我在問同樣的問題"},{"start":510.6,"end":528.509,"text":"我不敢這樣講說你們是用爬的啊你們就是正常在走我都不知道這個仗要怎麼打我是希望說能做的中央地方積極做因為你們要面對一個挑戰的變化是那種未來你們要把精力花在這裡最後啊剛剛我們好幾位委員特別說過了"},{"start":530.205,"end":544.213,"text":"上次跟你見面 我也問你嘛你說因為私人的企業因為上次說有很多遭到了駭客入侵把資料都竊走了那我今天特別講說因為就是我們中壢中壢長盛醫院 遭害8萬病例外洩那他要錢嘛反正他現在駭客也好像上網"},{"start":553.198,"end":573.179,"text":"按網去賣那真的假的我們不清楚我是覺得你們要去協助像你看從馬街醫院張基醫院甚至亞太附屬醫院到現在長盛醫院有地方的這個醫學級教學醫院教學中心也有地方級的一個區域或者地區醫院"},{"start":574.72,"end":590.968,"text":"我是覺得你們不能夠說這是私人的問題你們要有一個真的要協助的機制你上次也答應我說你們要研究要怎麼樣去協助你不是管理他但是我有一套來協助"},{"start":592.469,"end":619.818,"text":"就好像說有公司被詐騙那警察機關說我沒有管這家公司你不要這樣問我回答嘛他趕快弄個SOP你想方設法怎麼樣阻止或者讓你受傷受到最少因為這種東西蠻可怕的有一些私人的那些企業買賣的甚至機票的他大概就是個資外洩已經很頭痛了這個東西個人病例你知道嗎如果我能夠沒有經過允許拿到個人病例那是一個"},{"start":620.618,"end":639.316,"text":"更嚴重的犯罪的一個行為可是你這樣包括了個人的一個病例不是個資之外都被賣所以我是建議你在你們資安責任等級分級的一個表中分級表中我們的這個所謂教學級的醫院"},{"start":641.768,"end":666.07,"text":"這個部分教學級的醫院是分成特A級嗎是不是A級A級是不是教學中心是特A級A級單位因為A級主要是公立嘛公立的拜託這私立的是什麼意思你防公立的哇幾萬筆因為是很重要的醫療那私立的這你們特A級不能不管的不能不管"},{"start":666.63,"end":689.804,"text":"報告委員我們會跟衛護部合作把這個一些規範把它再定清楚就是說當然就是說這個醫院有很多個資啦我們當然也知道這個蠻重要那治安法修法之後通過之後我們對這種特定的非公務機關我們是可以由中央目的世界中央去要求那這我們會來協助我希望你們對醫院這件事情也跑起來好不好不要慢慢走謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請數位部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["魯委員明哲：黃部長，你是從去年520之後跟新的政府團隊入閣的，我想請教一下這幾年有什麼變化，以及新舊部長是不是有什麼不同的看法。首先，去年預算中心針對112年數位部抽測了大概15到24個公務機關，來協助及瞭解一般公務機關到底資安的品質如何。其實在112年的時候主要檢測的方向分成技術檢測及實地檢測，在檢測過程中，第一項技術檢測針對15個機關，其中有13個機關連基本的落實電腦安全更新（update）都沒做，這是當年其中一個檢測的項目，缺失機關的比率高達86%；第二個，實地檢測針對24個公務機關，其中有17個出現了資安上面的漏洞，缺失率達70%。這是你們提供給立法院112年的資料，不是我個人蒐集的。","然後113年也結束了，所以我們就請教113年的狀況是如何，因為通常這種KPI是要每一年來做比較，即所謂的數據管理，這樣你比較容易了解，我也比較清楚，當然這有兩個部分，對於舊的問題要如何改善，要去進行追蹤，譬如說這些被檢查過的公務機關有問題了，不能擺著不管，還要去review，看看有沒有改善，這個部分我有跟你們調資料，你們說有持續追蹤。我們再問113年對於新的一些公務機關再展開第二波的部分，因為公務機關那麼多，112年只有檢查15個，所以你們針對新的機關有沒有去做呢？到底是什麼狀況呢？請部長說明一下，新的機關你們做了幾個？還有新的技術檢測跟實地檢測的缺失比例又是如何？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告，剛剛委員所關心的稽核結果，113年我們也是一樣，針對40個政府機關來做實地的稽核，稽核的情況就如委員所提到的，包括在整個技術上面的檢測跟相關的一些管理，我們發現是有些提升，至於缺點的部分，的確是有要再改進的地方。"],["魯委員明哲：署長，請問一下，我們這邊列出的是你提供給我的，有三項是明顯進步，顯著提升有兩項，它的比較基礎是什麼？因為提升表示原本是在這裡，但後來提升了，所以你是針對112年這些檢查過的公務機關再去了解後發現他們有明顯的進步，是不是？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告，我們並沒有在做比較，而是針對不同的機關來做稽核，所以113年所稽核單位並不是112年稽核過的單位。"],["魯委員明哲：你們113年是針對不同的機關，請問你們稽核了幾個機關？"],["蔡署長福隆：40個。"],["魯委員明哲：40個機關？"],["蔡署長福隆：對。"],["魯委員明哲：技術檢測的缺失率大概是多少？"],["蔡署長福隆：技術的檢測其實就是有一些需要再改善的地方，就是剛剛委員所提到的，包括對網域、網路、資料庫，還有一些核心的系統等等，我們都有做一些檢測，每個機關經檢測完畢之後，我們都會提出一些相關檢測上有缺失的地方，請他們改進。"],["魯委員明哲：部長、署長，我覺得這有點奇怪了，何必呢？都有進步嘛！缺失率現在一展現出來，今年只有32%，哇！大家給你掌聲啊！但有這麼辛苦嗎？我跟你講，任何人若要從KPI數據上面去比較，你這樣做等於是讓一件事情複雜化，你做數據的人、做數位的人，把它倒過來用一些形容詞來講這個，像明顯進步或是顯著提升，我真的不想把時間耽誤在這裡，我希望113年能夠具體化，提一個數據出來，是好、是壞你們自己知道，大家也都知道，然後逐步改善就好了，部長，能不能把它一致化？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再提供數字給委員。"],["魯委員明哲：好的。部長，接下來，有關資安的人力荒，事實上你們是一個比較新成立的機關，所以要搶人；第二個，你們又需要非常專業的人，所以其實沒有很容易，我們都知道。但是你們在訂定相關法規時，就像今天又要修法了，但法修完，訂定了一些規則，你們就是要落實，定這些法不是給民眾看的，是我們自己要先落實，包括一些相關機關必須要有專職的資安人力，這是你們的規定，而且也是你們的業管範圍。但我們看到，一樣是112年，中央的部分，法定的員額還缺66人，占整個中央機關應有專職資安人員的比例，大概缺了8.4%，看起來不到10%；地方就比較嚴重了，地方缺了23.1%，這是112年的數據。","這應該是跟資安署有關吧！對此，我覺得應該要有進步，所以針對113年，你給我看一個數據，若減少了、優化了、問題收斂了，大家會給你肯定嘛！畢竟數據會說話，可是你知道你們是怎麼說的嗎？不知道部長知不知道，你們回答我們說113年的資料還在填報作業中，這是114年4月回答的，你們是一個講究效率的部會，卻跟我講還在填報作業中，我覺得好奇怪！因為一個蘿蔔一個坑，到底缺多少人，就是定出一個時間點，比方說去年12月31號截止，有人就有人，沒有人就沒有人，上個月補的不算，怎麼會統計不出來？就跟剛剛一樣，拜託一下，一定要統計出來這個部分，你要看，我也要看，就是從中央到地方各單位有沒有做好資安，這個部分我也希望部長去注意一下。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["魯委員明哲：再來，既然缺人缺這麼多，我們看到左下角的職缺低提報，即113年公務人員有新開缺，高考三級資通安全類科在各地報缺後也開缺了，但我們看到報缺的數額也非常低，部長能不能用一句話回答，到底中央、地方在不在乎資安專業人力這個事情？你的感覺是如何？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們資安人員的任用有幾個管道，一個當然是所謂的轉職系，就是從既有的公務人員再做訓練，希望轉成資安人員，原來預定目標是1,000人，目前已經訓練了兩、三百人，預計今年至少會有450人，也就是因為這樣的關係，所以直接從高考進來的部分，目前各單位的提報人數就比較少，不過我們會加強宣傳。也就是說，這個新的管道應該也是一個很好的管道，對我們的資安人力荒是有輔助的，所以我們會加強宣導，也希望未來高考資安類科這方面的職缺能夠多開一點，不過我們現在主要還是靠內部資安人員的轉職系訓練，目前是以這個方式在進行。"],["魯委員明哲：部長、署長，我語重心長，所謂的資安，從另外一個角度，就是影響資安的人跟物，還有software、AI的進步速度是用飛的，我感覺你們在處理這些事情上，好像每一年我都是在問同樣的問題，我是不敢這樣說，說你們都是用爬的，你們就是正常在走，所以我都不知道這個仗要怎麼打，我是希望能做的，中央、地方就積極做，因為你們要面對的是一個挑戰的變化，未來你們應把精力花在這裡。","最後，剛剛我們好幾位委員也特別說過了，上次跟你見面我也問你，上次提到很多機構遭到駭客入侵，把資料都竊走了，我今天要特別講，我們中壢長慎醫院遭駭，8萬病歷外洩，因為駭客要錢，後來好像有上暗網去賣病歷，真的還是假的我們不清楚，但我覺得你們要去協助一下，你看從馬偕醫院到彰基醫院，甚至到亞大附屬醫院，一直到現在的長慎醫院，當中有的是教學醫院、教學中心，有的是地方級的區域醫院，我是覺得你們不能夠說這是私人的問題，你們要有一個真的可以去協助的機制，你上次也答應我說要研究看看怎麼樣去協助。基本上，這並不是去管理它，但是你要有一套機制來協助，比方說有公司被詐騙了，結果警察機關說他沒有管這家公司，你不能這樣回答我，而是應趕快弄個SOP，想方設法看看怎麼樣阻止或者讓大家受傷受到最少，因為這種東西滿可怕的，像有一些私人企業的買賣，甚至機票的買賣，大概就是涉及個資外洩，已經讓人很頭痛，而我提的這個東西涉及個人病歷，如果沒有經過允許拿到個人病歷，那是一個更嚴重的犯罪行為，像這樣的個人病歷，連個資之外的都被賣掉了，所以我是建議你，在你們資安責任等級、分級表中，所謂教學級的醫院是被分為特A級嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：A級單位。"],["魯委員明哲：因為A級主要是包括公立的，那私立的部分是什麼意思？公立的有好幾萬筆，要予以防範，因為那是很重要的醫療資訊，那私立的應是特A級，不能不管！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們會跟衛福部合作，把這一些規範再訂清楚，當然醫院有很多個資，我們當然也知道這個滿重要，資安法修法通過之後，對於這種特定的非公務機關，是可以由中央目的事業主管機關去要求，這部分我們會來協助。"],["魯委員明哲：我希望你們對醫院這件事情也能跑起來，不要再慢慢走了，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160652","video_u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感謝主席 本席邀請我們速發部黃部長請部長部長好部長好 部長我根據你們的資通安全網路月報就三月份"},{"start":20.714,"end":31.659,"text":"我們政府機關的聯防情資有七萬五千多件就是大概嘗試要攻擊我們網路的七萬多件"},{"start":33.956,"end":59.652,"text":"跟去年同期比較每個月都超過兩成的成長也就是說我們受到網路攻擊的嚴重度可以說是逐月都提升了那攻擊裡面第一名是入侵類的攻擊37%那第二類是資訊的收集那第三就是嘗試要突破例如進入沒有授權的主機"},{"start":61.38,"end":73.796,"text":"我看我們很多單位都有提供類似的報告我看國安局那國安局的報告說我們在2024年去年平均一天受到網路的攻擊大概有240萬次"},{"start":75.922,"end":89.288,"text":"那2023年一天平均是120萬等於成長百分之百增加一倍這是國安局的報告2023年一天120萬次去年2024年一天變為240萬次那另外國安團隊就是對於駭客案件就是"},{"start":102.765,"end":110.83,"text":"可能是被攻破的有900多件比2023年的752件也成長大概兩成所以可見我們現在面對的狀況是越來越嚴厲其中攻擊我們什麼呢第一個來自中國的攻擊有佔80%"},{"start":126.885,"end":136.411,"text":"主要攻擊我們都是來自中國的駭客那攻擊我們主要都是一些基礎設施通訊傳播業、交通及國防這是最嚴重的"},{"start":138.51,"end":155.409,"text":"另外我再看一個微軟的報告幾乎每一份報告都是同樣的結論同樣的趨勢就是台灣受到攻擊的次數還有嚴密的嚴重度都越來越高然後主要都是來自中國"},{"start":156.67,"end":181.645,"text":"像微軟的報告說 中國高度鎖定了台灣而且他有特別提到 微軟說是以台灣的企業成為中國的高優先攻擊目標再來就是情報收集 國安機構等等這個蠻符合部長的那個報告裡面部長你說 現在我們的基礎設施"},{"start":183.106,"end":206.518,"text":"都會受到攻擊那中國不只攻擊台灣喔中國也攻擊其他國家例如關島中國為什麼攻擊關島很可能就是要癱瘓住在關島的美軍如果萬一台海有事他可以癱瘓關島的美國駐軍來阻止美方來援助台灣"},{"start":208.779,"end":231.14,"text":"這個大概在彭博社 國際媒體上也都有報導當然再來請教部長就是我們現在的國安所謂的定義的關鍵基礎設施是不是大概有 我看有8加1第一個就交通 再來醫療 水資源 再來政府機關"},{"start":232.541,"end":246.6,"text":"銀行金融業高科技園區能源產業通訊傳播現在最近又加上一個糧食所以大概有九大的關鍵基礎設施那其中"},{"start":248.291,"end":263.274,"text":"我們現在要希望更納入民間的相關機關企業來否則以目前的法令政府是沒有權利去對民間的企業做治安集合 是不是這樣"},{"start":264.255,"end":291.73,"text":"對就是所以這個治安法需要一個很重要就是我們納入所謂的特殊公務機關那這個就包括這個就可以由各目的事業主管機關去定義哪些是他們認為重要比如是supplier他是提供設備的人或者是說一些執行一些服務的機關也都的那個一門包括民間公司也可以被納入特殊非公務機關來進行查核一樣的治安的檢測跟查核"},{"start":293.273,"end":319.408,"text":"那部長你知不知道根據在暗網就是網路上一些暗網做一些非法交易買賣的地方暗網外洩的網站公佈資料台灣大概有八個受害者包括亞洲大學部長知道這是吧 亞洲大學醫院馬街另外有一個我看那個中文名稱英文名稱翻過來好像是華城電機"},{"start":321.687,"end":345.688,"text":"再來是張環經濟學院還有柯定、橋山甚至最近在中壢有一個長盛這個也是個醫院也受到攻擊而且攻擊以後他們的肉被拿走的個資甚至在暗網上也有在賣部長知道吧有看到報告那我看這個狀況會有越多"},{"start":348.522,"end":372.698,"text":"對 所以我才講說因為我們必須強化我們治安的防護才會說我們在這個時候必須馬上要修改我們的治安法讓我們能夠去對這些關鍵技術設施做做集合跟治安的演練來確認他們的治安防護是能夠到位但是過去啦 過去就是說政府我們對於自己公務機關的網路攻擊大概都有注意 也有專業的一個報告統計"},{"start":374.719,"end":402.354,"text":"但是對關鍵基礎設施尤其一些民間企業卻很少有像我剛練給你聽的現在關鍵基礎設施越來越多因為8加1有9項那你如果沒有這個修法的速度要快我們就可以整體把重要的一些民間企業也納進來甚至做一些資訊安全的輔導 稽查等等相關的工作"},{"start":403.807,"end":429.714,"text":"那部長你的看法呢我們現在在治安法的修法裡面還有一個就是說遇到治安事件他們要立即通報所以我們會更掌握清楚掌握那個目前的這個治安的剛剛講攻擊的事件的發生讓我們可以很快的通報各個單位能夠其實馬上加強防護所以這些新的治安法讓每個機關他負責他不但是要被接而且他負責通報像我就用民間統計的"},{"start":430.754,"end":442.463,"text":"因為政府沒有在統計關鍵基礎設施受攻擊的狀況一般 現在 但民間有統計過啦我用民間統計的給你看啦科學園區啊 被拿 外洩21萬筆啦政府機關有4萬筆 醫院有1萬3千筆啦"},{"start":445.965,"end":474.975,"text":"那關鍵基礎設施哪些設施外洩比例最高第一個是通訊傳播業第二個是醫院第三是政府機關我認為這個法令修訂以後一個比較重要的就是你要讓這些民間企業的員工也要了解你的工作你所在的這家企業是屬於關鍵基礎設施的所以他本身也要有治安意識我們甚至可以輔導這些企業你必須對他的相關從業人員要有一定的一種教育"},{"start":481.861,"end":497.054,"text":"另外就是禁用中國製造的一些相關的電子產品我們目前法律是沒有明確規範只有行政命令希望在這裡面也把它提升到法律的位階就是從中國製作跟資訊安全有相關的這個"},{"start":499.096,"end":521.491,"text":"一定要我們把它法制化 把它提高為法律因為國人親自看到的大概就是美國2022年佩洛西當時美國眾議院議長到台灣來當時中國駭客侵入了超商還有台鐵的電子看板我想讓國人應該清楚可以看到了其實我們的治安防護其實還是必須要有很大的一個加強"},{"start":523.012,"end":525.639,"text":"好 我們希望在相關的修法 部長應該多跟立委們來進行相關的溝通 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":406,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時59分）感謝主席，本席邀請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。我根據你們的資通安全網路月報，就3月份政府機關的聯防情資數量有七萬五千多件，大概嘗試要攻擊我們網路的有七萬多件，跟去年同期比較，每個月都超過兩成的成長，也就是我們受到網路攻擊的嚴重度可以說是逐月提升，攻擊裡面第一名是入侵類的攻擊，占37%；第二類是資訊的蒐集；第三就是嘗試要突破，例如進入沒有授權的主機。","我看很多單位都有提供類似的報告，像國安局的報告說我們在2024年（去年）平均一天受到網路攻擊的次數大概有240萬次，相較於2023年一天平均120萬次，等於成長100%，增加1倍。國安局的報告指出，2023年一天120萬次，去年（2024年）一天變成240萬次。另外，國安團隊被駭客攻破的案件有900件，比2023年的752件也成長大概二成，可見我們現在面對的狀況愈來愈嚴厲。其中攻擊我們什麼呢？第一個，來自中國的攻擊占80%，主要攻擊我們的都是來自中國的駭客，攻擊我們的主要都是一些基礎設施，包括通訊傳播業、交通及國防，這是最嚴重的。","另外，我再看微軟的報告，幾乎每一份報告都是同樣的結論、同樣的趨勢，就是臺灣受到攻擊的次數及嚴重度都愈來愈高，主要都是來自中國。像微軟的報告說，中國高度鎖定了臺灣，而且還特別提到，臺灣的企業成為中國的高優先攻擊目標，再來就是情報蒐集、國安機構等等。這個結論滿符合部長的報告，部長說現在我們的基礎設施都會受到攻擊。而且中國不只攻擊臺灣，也攻擊其他國家，例如關島，中國為什麼攻擊關島？很可能就是要癱瘓駐在關島的美軍，萬一臺海有事，它可以癱瘓關島的美國駐軍，阻止美方援助臺灣，在彭博社、國際媒體上也都有報導。","請教部長，我們現在國安定義的關鍵基礎設施大概有8加1，第一個是交通，再來是醫療、水資源、政府機關、銀行金融業、高科技園區、能源產業、通訊傳播，最近又加上糧食，所以大概有九大關鍵基礎設施。我們現在希望更納入民間的相關機關、企業，否則以目前的法令，政府是沒有權利對民間的企業做資安稽核，是不是這樣？"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以這次資安法修法很重要的就是納入特定非公務機關，這樣就可以由目的事業主管機關去定義哪些是他們認為重要的，比如supplier、提供設備的人或者一些執行服務的機關，even民間公司也可以被納入特定非公務機關，進行一樣的資安檢測及查核。"],["林委員俊憲：好。部長，根據暗網，也就是網路上做一些非法交易買賣的地方，暗網外洩的網站公布資料，臺灣大概有8個受害者，包括亞洲大學，部長知道這件事吧？包括亞洲大學醫院、馬偕醫院，另外一個從英文名稱翻譯成中文名稱，好像是華城電機，再來是彰化基督教醫院，還有科定、喬山，甚至最近在中壢有一個長慎醫院也受到攻擊，而且攻擊以後，這些被拿走的個資甚至在暗網上也有在賣，部長知道吧？"],["黃部長彥男：我知道，有看到報告。"],["林委員俊憲：我看這個狀況會愈來愈多。"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以我才講我們必須強化資安的防護，在這個時候必須馬上修改資安法，讓我們能夠對這些關鍵基礎設施做稽核及資安的演練，來確認他們的資安防護能夠到位。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，過去我們對於自己公務機關的網路攻擊大概都有注意，也有專業的報告、統計，但是對關鍵基礎設施，尤其一些民間企業卻很少有，像我剛剛唸給你聽的，現在關鍵基礎設施愈來愈多，8加1，有9項，所以修法的速度要快，才可以整體把重要的民間企業也納進來，甚至做一些資訊安全的輔導、稽查等等相關的工作。部長，你的看法呢？"],["黃部長彥男：現在資安法的修法還有一個是遇到資安事件，他們要立即通報，所以我們會更清楚掌握目前資安攻擊事件的發生，讓我們可以很快地通報各個單位馬上加強防護，所以新的資安法可以讓每個機關不但要被稽核，還要負責通報。"],["林委員俊憲：像我就用民間統計的，因為政府沒有在統計關鍵基礎設施受攻擊的狀況，但民間有統計過。我用民間統計的資料給你看，科學園區外洩21萬筆，政府機關有4萬筆，醫院有1萬3,000筆；至於哪些關鍵基礎設施外洩的比例最高？第一個是通訊傳播業，第二個是醫院，第三個是政府機關。我認為這個法律修訂以後，比較重要的是，你要讓這些民間企業的員工也要瞭解自己所屬的企業是屬於關鍵基礎設施，所以他本身也要有資安意識，我們甚至可以輔導這些企業必須對其相關從業人員要有一定的教育，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：不只教育，可能有些要進入特殊查核，確認執行的人員有……"],["林委員俊憲：另外就是禁用中國製造的相關電子產品，目前法律沒有明確規範，只有行政命令，希望在這裡面也提升到法律的位階，就是針對中國製造跟資訊安全相關的部分一定要法制化，正式提升為法律，因為國人親自看到的大概就是2022年美國眾議院裴洛西議長到臺灣來，當時中國駭客侵入了超商及臺鐵電子看板，我想應該可以讓國人清楚看到我們的資安防護還是必須要有很大的加強。我們希望針對相關的修法，部長應該多跟立委們進行相關的溝通，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，可以。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160651","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e58bac86c4d2e571ffc89945c4c3ca21e1840241ee498f319a3eca6ea80bfd1def5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:49:51 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主席謝謝 麻煩請陳主委好 有請陳主委好 主委好 何安非常重要前兩天這個世界地球日賴清德總統也說接見環團的時候有講到對未來的新核能技術保持開放的態度環境部長說沒有所謂非核家園非核家園不是行政團隊的神主牌"},{"start":39.575,"end":55.685,"text":"有看到嗎?對的那我們都不知道說那這樣子現在民進黨過去一直在野的時候強調的非核跟現在又可以大轉彎然後臉不紅氣不喘我們也覺得非常的感到非常的精細是核心不過"},{"start":56.758,"end":83.5,"text":"如果說真的沒有所謂的非核家園神主牌的話那態度很重要就不是只是嘴巴講講嘛那我請教上個月底我們有排審核子反應器設施管制條例管制法第六條的修正草案的時候沒有相關的版本不管是我們政院不管是我們政府不管是我們綠營的委員沒有相關版本身為主管機關主委你怎麼看"},{"start":87.403,"end":112.163,"text":"我感覺這個版本已經很多了什麼版本已經很多 他沒有你們的版本主委 你是在開玩笑還是你是認真嚴肅的回答本席的問題嗎因為核安會是核能安全主管機關是核電要不要研議是屬於核子反應器設施管制法主管機關是誰明定這個法的主管機關"},{"start":113.65,"end":133.082,"text":"這是核安會是啊 前身是原能會 現在是核安會啊那我們現在在講是說如果說政府也覺得說沒有所謂的非核家園沒有要死爆神主牌那要討論核電廠能不能研議現在世界各國 美國 日本有多少核電廠研議"},{"start":137.617,"end":164.11,"text":"有關核電研議的事情是屬於核能政策的問題研議的電廠大概100多所以這些研議的電廠是不是都經過安全的評估 專業的評估理性的評估 科學的評估是嘛 不然他們政府不敢放嘛那一樣的道理"},{"start":164.97,"end":182.726,"text":"我們國家裡面河一場 河二場 河三場過去有沒有做過相關研議的評估安全評估報告河一場有將近有做評估河二場也有 河三場也有嘛河二河三沒有 河一場有確定喔 諸位"},{"start":184.52,"end":200.249,"text":"沒有送到核安會來審查有做評估但是沒有送核安會來審查還是沒做評估評估應該是台電內部的事台電內部有評估啊但是做完這個報告之後當然會有送相關主管機關啊沒有送過來確定嗎主委 確定喔我確定因為"},{"start":207.711,"end":230.716,"text":"本席後續還會再追這個議題但是我現在很清楚明白的確定是台電過去都有做核電廠的安全研議評估尤其是核三廠這個是本席很確定的部分再來第二個部分選址也是一個重點對不對核廢料的一個選址那現在我們看到說行政部門"},{"start":231.997,"end":260.06,"text":"有已經有所謂行政院有所謂的一個選址辦公室那也希望能夠趕快來確定選址立法來送政院那其中特別有提到是說現在這個辦公室主任還沒找到但是對外的說法是說還會再找不管是台電不管是和安會的人員一起進入到這個辦公室我請教一下主委到目前這有沒有相關進度還是和安會有沒有接收到說到底這個辦公室要做什麼"},{"start":260.999,"end":288.087,"text":"我目前是負責人員已經找到了那開過會了沒還沒就任吧已經找到了還沒就任是那對外講法是說我們還會有河安會的人員也都一起加入沒有沒有有啊這新聞稿就直接這樣寫不是不能我們準備資料比你們還要充分然後你不能講說新聞稿上面公開資訊上面不能講說沒有諸位"},{"start":293.819,"end":312.47,"text":"這個專案辦公室並沒有河安會的人在裡面主委要不要我拿相關的新聞稿給你因為這是我們剛查我現在只是很理性的想要跟你確認是說現在這個選址辦公室未來要怎麼運作河安會這邊有沒有了解那結果你現在這樣講那到底是誰說謊是政院說謊來大家去看中央社的報導"},{"start":321.487,"end":337.896,"text":"經部核廢處置辦公室落腳板橋選址立院拼年底送政院4月4號中央社的報導其中裡面就提到居時辦公室也會從台電、核安會、學界、研覽、核電專業者參與核廢選址立法推動"},{"start":342.697,"end":349.387,"text":"所以你們是還沒有被通知到報告委員在經濟部徵詢專案辦公室主任的這個階段的時候曾經徵詢過一位退休的"},{"start":358.681,"end":376.383,"text":"核安會的副主委不過這位副主委他並沒有意願擔任那目前其實沒有核安會的人員去參加這個專案辦公室因為我們是安全監督安全監督角色跟這個業務上面會有會有是所以本席也會覺得就起"},{"start":377.958,"end":392.919,"text":"所以這主委這為什麼本席會今天提出來其實本席還準備其他問題也是要問就說這樣子我們會不會有球員兼裁判的狀況何安會如果說要派人因為這個是正式的新聞稿4月4號中央社發出來的新聞報導"},{"start":394.673,"end":413.232,"text":"就講說要延攬相關的人士進入到這個辦公室他講的不是說主任要是和安會的人派他講的是說未來運作要由相關不管台電學界以及和安會要有人員共同參與那這樣子我就想問說那如果說選址出來完之後又再交給和安會審查"},{"start":414.113,"end":430.982,"text":"那核安會是不是又角色多重一方面你是專業的判斷那一方面你又加入這個選舉辦公室那在選舉辦公室裡面你要用什麼樣的身份來給予什麼樣的意見所以核安會並沒有人參與所以那這樣看起來這個新聞是假新聞"},{"start":432.062,"end":453.176,"text":"要不要做個澄清可以啊可以做澄清那是前副主委曾經並不是陳副主委嘛他現在講前副主委前任的副主委前任的副主委但本席現在講的是說報導裡面這也是我們看到的時候就會認為是說何安慧你是站在專業審查的角度"},{"start":453.996,"end":481.529,"text":"你的角色不應該錯亂對 是的如果說新聞是錯的請澄清請要求澄清尤其是中央社也是我們相關的半官方機關如果說連中央社的新聞稿中央社新聞出來都會有錯誤的資訊的話那真的是假消息假新聞滿天飛啊好 我會請中央社更正好 謝謝主委謝謝委員好 謝謝 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我們要有請陳明正主委好 有請主委"},{"start":10.363,"end":33.144,"text":"主委好 我想我們這個台灣核電廠將要在這個下個月核三廠二號及廚藝之後正式停止核能發電但是後續的這個廚藝程序仍然是漫長且複雜的工程包括燃料移除還有設備拆除的準備那以及低放射性廢棄物的處理等等我相信都必須要非常的謹慎來推動"},{"start":34.725,"end":63.946,"text":"那但是核电厂停止运转之后某一些类型的低阶核废料原来要透过核电厂中的减容中心焚化炉来焚烧以减少低阶核废料的总量其中我们有看到一个数据在核药厂的焚化炉大概就要再烧27年那这部分会不会关系到核安跟公共安全请您简答我们这方面已经做过准备了那会不会关系到核安跟公共安全您只要回答我会不会就好"},{"start":65.616,"end":89.972,"text":"不會不會不會處理不會不會影響公共安全就是說是會影響到只是你們會處理應該是這樣說啦如果說不會這個你就真的是這個不知道你在打什麼好來我們來看那個上週核二廠就是有傳出在111年中招標的簡容中心焚化爐系統更新工程有一個弊案"},{"start":90.672,"end":90.852,"text":"我們馬上有做調查"},{"start":110.536,"end":121.305,"text":"這方面是疑似所謂的弊案 是有關焚化爐結果是什麼 你不要把我的問題拿來當答案重做一次調查結果並不影響核電廠的安全並不影響 但是有這件事 對嗎疑似有這件事 調查才是你又說疑似有 然後又說有調查 只說不影響我覺得這個主委可能要再嚴謹一點"},{"start":136.977,"end":157.054,"text":"那所以你說不影響 好 聽起來目前暫時沒有安全的疑慮可是我覺得這件事情讓人家非常憂心你看這個廠長在這個任內疑似多次圖利特定廠商那去年還被指控利用限制性招標的手法協助了同一家的業者取得了簡榮中興焚化爐SKATA的主機的採購案這個主委知道嗎"},{"start":165.103,"end":186.221,"text":"但是我们知道这个主机的系统很重要它对于关键基础设施等等它的这个系统是负责监控跟管理焚化炉运作的一个关键的流程一旦真的发生问题不仅会造成营运的中断可能对于我们这个员工人身跟公共安全会造成伤害所以非常的严重"},{"start":186.761,"end":214.442,"text":"所以我要請教一下主委目前我們對於核電廠各項廢棄物處理設施的建制包括乾式儲存廠等等會不會主動的參與台電跟廠商的驗收還是我們只是被動的在運轉之前來做一做安全的測試而已這主要工作是屬於台電方面的工作當然是嘛 所以我才問你說你會不會去參與台電跟廠商的驗收在驗收這個部分你會不會提出你的專業意見"},{"start":215.865,"end":240.848,"text":"報告委員 那個有關台電公司的招標那是屬於台電公司內部的管理問題那我們核安會負責安全的把關工作在剛才委員所提到這個SCADA這個系統其實它是原本已經存在減農中心的一個系統它就是一個伺服器跟一個軟體那我們核安會要求它做好啦 主委"},{"start":241.388,"end":245.15,"text":"我想我不是來跟你討論這個設備到底在做什麼的而是說我們發生這樣的弊案我覺得我們應該要更嚴謹一點這些弊案都有可能涉及相關可能產生更大的安全的問題所以我覺得我們的嚴謹度要再更高一些"},{"start":257.955,"end":261.177,"text":"那我想不管是核電廠的本身或者是有關核廢料處理的各項的設備都是涉及核安的剛剛本席有說過任何一個環節這個出了問題恐怕都會造成無法挽回的一個災害所以核安會我們不僅要更積極真的要強化這個對核電廠的一個監督那另外一個問題"},{"start":279.525,"end":293.157,"text":"針對非核安專業的包括像土木、機電或資訊等核電廠的工程我們有沒有具體的強化經濟的方案或者是定期請這個第三方相關的一個專家來協助查核有做這樣的事嗎"},{"start":296.501,"end":312.801,"text":"跟委員說明有關於其他非安全相關的一些工程那河安會在針對這部分之前已經要求台電公司針對包商的管理跟內部的管控這部分這樣啦 本席在這邊都是善意提醒喔"},{"start":313.382,"end":329.38,"text":"所以我希望河岸會是不是能夠在一個月之內跟本席一份強化河岸監督精進的方案給我一個書面的報告那針對今天其實我們有很多擔心跟疑慮我想這個報告在一個月之內我們把它整理一下整理的過程之中我們順便大家能夠更嚴謹的去對待可能面對的這些問題可以嗎"},{"start":334.926,"end":352.899,"text":"那再來我想再請教一個陳柱偉今年在這個1月份曾經率隊查訪已經廚藝的合一合二廠去了解廚藝跟甘廚設施的推動的進展那麼也跟台電人員交流你當時在現場是不是有聽到台電要跟這個核能發電處做整併有沒有這件事"},{"start":353.519,"end":369.02,"text":"在当时?我当时没有当时没有好那可是我们看到核一核二厂已经进入厨艺的阶段核三厂在今年五月要正式厨艺那卓院长也有要求台电不能让核电厂管理人员因为核电厂厨艺而离开因为这都是我们非常重要的人才"},{"start":369.761,"end":377.086,"text":"尤其我们看到在去年11月我们联合国气候变化大会上面也有讲到有31个国家有签署"},{"start":400.141,"end":426.502,"text":"是的所以挖角這件事情國外一直有做這樣的動作對 那所以當我們如果不重視的話可能這些人才就會被挖走嘛好 陳主委最後啦那個在一月份你訪視這個當中啊你也有在座談會提到說我們要汲取國際經驗做好人力資源管理跟經驗傳承你有說過這句話嘛 對不對好 但是現實卻是我們台灣核電人才逐漸一直在流失當中根據台電公司的資料"},{"start":427.162,"end":452.353,"text":"核能發電事業部從2018年的2529人減為目前的1838人七年內減少了27%我覺得這個問題非常的嚴重所以既然那個院長有提出來那這個主委也有注意到但是我們要付諸實際怎麼樣去留住我們這些人才所以這一個部分是不是主委有具體的想法跟做法"},{"start":453.376,"end":480.125,"text":"我們一直有要求台電保存這個核能人才的儲備而且我們也鼓勵年輕學子投入這個行業好啦 主委我這個現在時間有限最後一句話給你啦鼓勵這件事情不會讓現在發生的問題去做解決啦拿出一些實際的辦法去因應面對現在我們人才流失啦這才是重中之重好不好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":710,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時41分）謝謝召委，一樣有請陳明真主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["萬委員美玲：主委好。我們這個臺灣核電廠在下個月核三廠2號機除役之後，正式停止核能發電，但是後續的除役程序仍然是漫長而且複雜的工程，包括燃料的移除還有設備拆除的準備，以及低放射性廢棄物的處理等等，我相信都必須要非常謹慎來推動。但是核電廠停止運轉之後，某些類型的低階核廢料仍然要透過核電廠中的減容中心焚化爐來焚燒，以減少低階核廢料的總量。其中我們有看到一個數據，在核二廠的焚化爐大概就要再燒27年，這部分會不會關係到核安跟公共安全？請您簡答。"],["陳主任委員明真：我們這方面已經做過準備了……"],["萬委員美玲：那會不會關係到核安跟公共安全？您只要回答我會或不會就好。"],["陳主任委員明真：不會。"],["萬委員美玲：不會？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們會處理，不會影響公共安全。"],["萬委員美玲：所以應該是這樣說，是會影響到，但是你們會處理，如果說不會，真的是不知道你在答什麼。我們來看，上週核二廠傳出在111年招標的減容中心焚化爐系統更新工程有一個弊案，在去（113）年驗收期間，廠長涉嫌收受上百萬元的賄賂，讓工程通過驗收，核安會作為核能安全的主管機關，在這件事爆發之後，你有沒有立即的啟動復驗或者是安全稽查？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們馬上有做調查，這疑似所謂的弊案是有關焚化爐……"],["萬委員美玲：結果是什麼？你不要把我的問題拿來當答案，重複一次。"],["陳主任委員明真：調查結果並不影響核電廠的安全。"],["萬委員美玲：並不影響，但是有這件事，對嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：疑似有這件事，調查……"],["萬委員美玲：你又說疑似有，然後又說有調查，只說不影響，我覺得主委可能要再嚴謹一點，所以你說不影響，聽起來目前暫時沒有安全的疑慮，可是我覺得這件事情讓人家非常憂心，你看，這個廠長在任內疑似多次圖利特定廠商，去年還被指控利用限制性招標的手法，協助了同一家的業者，取得了減容中心焚化爐SCADA主機的採購案，這個主委知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我聽過報告，就是……"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們知道這個主機的系統很重要，它對於關鍵基礎設施等等，這個系統是負責監控跟管理焚化爐運作的一個關鍵流程，一旦真的發生問題，不僅會造成營運的中斷，對於我們員工人身跟公共安全可能也會造成傷害，非常的嚴重。","所以我要請教一下主委，目前我們對於核電廠各項廢棄物處理設施的建置，包括乾式貯存場等等，會不會主動參與台電跟廠商的驗收？還是我們只是被動地在運轉之前來做一做安全的測試而已？"],["陳主任委員明真：這個主要工作是屬於台電方面的工作，詳細情形……"],["萬委員美玲：當然是嘛，所以我才問你會不會去參與台電跟廠商的驗收，在驗收這個部分，你會不會提出你的專業意見？"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，有關台電公司的招標，那是屬於台電公司內部的管理問題，我們核安會負責安全的把關工作，至於剛才委員所提SCADA這個系統，其實它是原本已經存在減容中心的一個系統，它就是一個伺服器跟一個軟體，我們核安會要求他做……"],["萬委員美玲：好啦，主委，我想我不是來跟你討論這個設備到底在做什麼的，而是說我們發生這樣的弊案，我覺得我們應該更嚴謹一點，這些弊案都有可能產生更大的安全問題，所以我覺得我們的嚴謹度要再更高一些。我想不管是核電廠本身或者是攸關核廢料處理的各項設備，都是涉及核安的，剛剛本席有說過，任何一個環節出了問題，恐怕都會造成無法挽回的災害，所以核安會不僅要更積極，真的要強化對核電廠的監督。","另外一個問題，針對非核安專業的包括土木、機電或資訊等核電廠的工程，我們有沒有具體的強化、精進方案，或者是定期請第三方相關的專家來協助查核，有做這樣的事嗎？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，有關於其他非安全相關的一些工程，針對這部分，核安會之前已經要求台電公司針對包商的管理跟內部的管控這部分……"],["萬委員美玲：這樣啦，本席在這邊都是善意提醒，所以我希望核安會是不是能夠在一個月之內給本席一份強化核安監督精進方案的書面報告，針對今天我們很多的擔心跟疑慮，我想這個報告請在一個月之內整理一下，在整理的過程之中，順便也能夠更嚴謹地去對待可能面對的這些問題，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：可以。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，我想再請教一個問題，陳主委在今年1月份曾經率隊查訪已經除役的核一、核二廠，去瞭解除役跟乾貯設施的推動、進展，也跟台電人員交流，你當時在現場是不是有聽到台電要跟核能發電處做整併，當時有沒有這件事？"],["陳主任委員明真：當時沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：當時沒有，好。可是我們看到核一、核二廠已經進入除役的階段，核三廠在今年5月要正式除役，卓院長也有要求台電不能讓核電廠管理人員因為核電廠除役而離開，因為這都是我們非常重要的人才，尤其我們看到去年11月在聯合國氣候變化大會上面也有講到，有31個國家有簽署要嘗試在2050年前使核電發電量增加到目前的3倍，包括美、英等國家。所以你看，現在在世界各國重返核電之際，甚至於會不會有可能來臺灣挖角？所以我們現在這些有經驗的核電人才，還有核二、核三廠的發電設備等等，依您的看法，是不是應該要繼續予以維持？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的，關於挖角這件事情，國外一直有做這樣的動作。"],["萬委員美玲：所以我們如果不重視的話，可能這些人才就會被挖走。陳主委，最後，在你1月份的訪視當中，你有在座談會提到，我們要汲取國際經驗，做好人力資源管理跟經驗傳承，你有說過這句話對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，但是現實卻是我們臺灣的核電人才一直在流失當中，根據台電公司的資料，核能發電事業部從2018年的2,529人減為目前的1,838人，7年內減少了百分之二十七、八，我覺得這個問題非常嚴重，既然院長有提出來，主委也有注意到，但是我們要付諸實際，怎麼樣去留住我們這些人才？對於這個部分，主委是不是有具體的想法跟作法？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們一直有要求台電保存核能人才的儲備，而且我們也鼓勵年輕學子投入這個行業。"],["萬委員美玲：好啦，主委，現在時間有限，最後給你一句話，鼓勵這件事情不會讓現在發生的問題去做解決，拿出一些實際的辦法去因應、面對現在我們人才流失的問題，這才是重中之重，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳主任委員明真：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，主委請回。我們接下來請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e56d450a0a92260c9c9742596ee20a55b8840241ee498f319a9149260f840dde775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"11:36:16 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實際層面來說就是它的內容都一樣啦是真的加嚴啦這對於患者來說是第一層的把關這個我們當然支持但是部長你說的沒錯確實是提到這個法律的位階只是在實際層面上這個修法把學歷採認證原則採認原則放鬆之後"},{"start":87.63,"end":103.082,"text":"再加到實行細則裡面部長說的這是最嚴格的規定但看起來沒有我記得你當時說過這個有意見是可以討論跟修改那我現在請教部長幾個問題就以前一次用106年定的學歷採認原則來決定能不能考醫師執照的國考對不對"},{"start":109.138,"end":111.824,"text":"106年訂的學歷採認的原則來決定能不能考醫師執照的國考對不對"},{"start":119.449,"end":139.579,"text":"當然這有一連串的一個偵審的一個過程吧這個學歷採認證採認原則是說學士會的醫學系然後醫學系學士會的中醫學系中醫學系學士會的牙醫學系跟牙醫學系畢業學校必須符合教育部以列入的參考名冊"},{"start":140.939,"end":157.328,"text":"那新的公布的版本多了當地國政府學校權責機關或認定之教育專業評鑑團體所任何的也算這是把篩選的學校的權利都放棄了直接交給國外嘛"},{"start":158.783,"end":172.785,"text":"跟委員報告一下我想我們從在修正這個相關的法案然後來施行細則絕對是真的他的心情絕對是嚴格把關"},{"start":174.187,"end":199.354,"text":"那個我也不管是在立委的時候或者是在可是我們看不出來當地當地國的政府學校他的修改都是有他的原因我等一下再請那個那個可能醫事室來跟我們報告我先講一個一定是有如果有這個都有做非常非常詳細的溝通但是絕對我也不容許"},{"start":202.247,"end":228.556,"text":"因為當地國政府的這個權責機關跟教育評鑑團體我們搞不懂因為我們看不懂它是什麼東西因為在制定的過程當中我們也了解那個是說有的國家是那個是由政府跟團體當然是一定是政府認定的團體才承認所以在後來在記者裡面他還有一個教育評鑑團體是指什麼"},{"start":234.319,"end":248.448,"text":"教育評鑑團體認可他也可以啊我想這個團體絕對是非常非常嚴格我要講的是說有沒有比我們教育部列入的參考名冊更加嚴格這個詳細的規劃是在哪裡"},{"start":252.162,"end":274.81,"text":"那個意思是要不要回答一下跟委員報告就是說我們過去都是只是針對某個大學或某個學校的機制他送審但是我們現在是由你就地自己主管機關已經評鑑過審核過的機制而且進公開的機制裡面所以會比過去以來更那比我們自己的嚴格嗎你認為如果他的國家"},{"start":277.296,"end":294.657,"text":"這個部分管得比較鬆的時候那你問我這樣是好的嗎就是他必須是已經審核結果誰審核嘛他們當地對啊所以我這個就有爭議了你懂我意思嗎現在既然是為我們國人看病不是由他們來定標準應該是我們來定標準才對吧"},{"start":296.728,"end":310.893,"text":"那在裡面有一個在不採這個認證學歷部分就是說遠距教學本來是不行的但新修訂的這個特別加上去特殊條件下可以採認那這部分有包含這個臨床實驗嗎"},{"start":315.669,"end":337.87,"text":"實作都是一定在實體不會有遠距的不可能有嘛對不對好那你們這個我覺得你們要寫清楚啦用學歷採認證的時候要經過一般這個常態招生或入學管道才可以承認學歷你修完之後變成有公開招生就可以了那不就是讓國際專班的這個部分就就地合法了嗎"},{"start":338.817,"end":364.032,"text":"因為他所謂的公開是說你有公開比喻是說聯招或是公開在那個收入學生不是透過某些特殊機制在收取學生的這個好啦我這樣建議啦就是你們應該把106年的學歷採認證原則一模一樣的放到這個施行細則裡面這樣才有真正提升法律慰藉的效果因為講得不清不楚讓很多人看不懂部長你覺得勒"},{"start":365.558,"end":388.926,"text":"可以啦我謝謝委員的關心我必須要再重申一次像這樣的一個討論已經經過非常詳盡連行政院長都主持這樣的一個相關的一個有些團體嘛他關心另外如果真的有因為這樣子而放鬆的話我們都很願意來做處理來做檢討沒有問題"},{"start":393.668,"end":405.836,"text":"另外我請教部長,醫師法裡面有提到很多次的外國學歷、外國醫事人員。外國人這個詞彙在中華民國的現行法律裡面,這些外國有包含中國大陸嗎?我們目前沒有承認中國大陸的血脊。"},{"start":415.456,"end":441.469,"text":"對嘛 因為一個中國大陸醫師想要來台灣執業在實務上會依兩岸人民關係條例來先處理身份跟資格的問題嘛 對不對因為兩岸人民關係條例它是特別法它應該是會優先的我們的一般的法律我們現在訂的這些規範它只是一般法律所以我們會優先用兩岸人民關係條例來處理"},{"start":443.05,"end":453.075,"text":"是的所以如果說要開放大陸地區醫生來台灣我們的法律條文裡面就必須寫到大陸地區的醫師而不是外國醫生對吧他不是外國醫生嗎應該會寫到大陸地區的醫生是這樣嗎理論上是這樣"},{"start":466.321,"end":485.499,"text":"應該是依照兩岸人民關係條例的名字嘛對對對 所以謝謝部長因為之前我們也聽到說我們要開放大陸的中國醫生來台灣這個造謠的事情這個謝謝部長也認證啦這些立委他好像都不太懂這個中華民國的法律我們在這邊謝謝部長的澄清"},{"start":488.802,"end":516.165,"text":"另外我再請教就是食安的部分我們現在行政院經貿談判辦公室嚴副總談判代表你們今天的這份報告我真的看不出來你們在談判的前中後要怎麼保障我們國人的食品安全跟農民的權益就食安的角度來講談判的時候你們會自己降低食安的標準去配合美國嗎"},{"start":519.281,"end":544.171,"text":"報告委員我想我們是有分工的雖然我們是政府是一體團隊也是一體的大家齊心協力那在食安這個專業的一個科學的分析那會是由我們衛福部這邊來做琢磨那我想在辦公室那邊談判辦公室應該是在談判的技術然後收集大家的意見"},{"start":545.871,"end":572.362,"text":"來維護國家最大的權益這樣子對啊 因為我不希望我們以國人的健康來做籌碼來配合美國的演出雖然美國有提到說我們台灣檢測萊克多巴胺殘留辦法跟捷克法認可方法不一致我們台灣標準是比較嚴格的那當然美國是希望我們用寬鬆的標準來認定台灣辦公室的看法呢"},{"start":575.135,"end":595.412,"text":"先請署長回應一下報告委員因為簽到萊克多安的檢驗的部分那個是檢驗是非常非常科學的科學的檢驗的過程你們會不會降低那個標準的部分因為檢驗的科學的時候他檢驗的方式呢JEC法其實有公開公告的相關的一個標準那其實國際可以認證的那我們"},{"start":597.874,"end":622.304,"text":"食藥署這邊的我們的研檢組裡面對於開發這些方法以及執行的部分都沒有問題我們都準備好我今天提這個雖然還沒談我只是希望說政府能夠站在人民的健康的這個立場來去幫我們人民做把關另外當然農民的衝擊可能也要考慮到我們農業部那個我們次長有來那我們也是希望我有聽到說之前有講零關稅這個部分我們次長"},{"start":636.581,"end":644.444,"text":"我們之前有聽到說我們關稅要從零開始談那是一個原則,但是不是所有都談到零"},{"start":645.43,"end":664.98,"text":"所以農業部的看法農業部一定跟農民站在一起維護我們國家農業的安全所以不會領我希望你要考量我們農民的生計農業部覺得跟農民站在一起我們蘇昭偉剛剛也有提過好幾個委員都有提到大家都非常擔心就是說我們一定要保護我們自己農業的發展還有我們的農民的權益那經貿辦這邊呢"},{"start":671.164,"end":692.159,"text":"我想針對這些農產品的議題絕對不是只有開放的問題所以我們一定會尊重我們的主政機關的意見然後以我們的國人跟農產的發展為優先所以你們一定要站好你的角度好不好 站好你的立場好好幫我們的國人 幫我們的農民好吧希望你們把這件事放在心上謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":635,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我們請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，我想請教一下，醫師法第四條之一的修法，被大家認為是一個落日條款，感覺有一點是來放水用的，你們為了第四條之一的修法也修了醫師法的施行細則，最近這個也送進來備查了，我記得你說過這是將醫師法施行細則提高到法律位階，是二十年來最嚴格的規定，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：這個是在幾年前，我記得我擔任立委的時候，就把那個細則變成法制化。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是法律的位階。"],["邱部長泰源：就是這樣子而已啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，實際層面來說，是……"],["邱部長泰源：它的內容都一樣啦，並沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是真的加嚴啦，這對患者來說是第一層的把關，這個我們當然支持。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是部長你說的沒錯，確實是提高到法律位階，只是在實際層面上，這個修法把學歷採認原則放鬆之後，再加到施行細則裡面，部長說這是最嚴格的規定，但看起來沒有。我記得你當時說過，這個部分有意見是可以討論跟修改的，那我現在請教部長幾個問題，以前是用106年訂的學歷採認原則來決定能不能考醫師執照的國考，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：請委員再……"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是以106年訂的學歷採認的原則來決定能不能考醫師執照的國考，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：當然這有一連串的甄審過程吧。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個學歷採認原則是說，學士後的醫學系、醫學系，學士後的中醫學系、中醫學系，學士後的牙醫學系、牙醫學系，畢業學校必須符合教育部已列入的參考名冊。新公布的版本多了當地國政府、學校、權責機關或認定之教育專業評鑑團體所認可的，也算，這是把篩選學校的權力都放棄了，直接交給國外嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，我想我們在修正相關的法案，然後訂定施行細則，絕對是真的，他的心情絕對是嚴格把關，我不管是在立委的時候，或者是在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是我們看不出來當地國的政府、學校……"],["邱部長泰源：它的修改都是有它的原因，我等一下再請醫事司來跟委員報告，我先講一個，一定是有，如果有……這個都有做非常非常詳細的溝通，但是絕對，我也不容許讓它更寬鬆啦，至於當時為什麼會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，因為當地國政府的權責機關跟教育評鑑團體，我們搞不懂，因為我們看不懂它是什麼東西。"],["邱部長泰源：因為在制定的過程當中，我們了解那個，就是有的國家是由政府跟團體，當然一定是政府認定的團體才承認，所以後來在細則裡面就用這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它還有一個教育評鑑團體是指什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：教育……"],["邱委員鎮軍：教育評鑑團體認可也可以啊。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個團體絕對是非常嚴格，而且是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我要講的是說，有沒有比我們教育部列入的參考名冊更加嚴格？這個詳細的規劃是在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：醫事司要不要回答一下。"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，就是說，我們過去都只是針對某個大學或某個學校的機制，由它送審，但是我們現在是由你就地，自己主管機關已經評鑑過、審核過的機制，而且已經公開的機制裡面，所以會比過去以來更加嚴格……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那比我們自己的嚴格嗎？你認為，如果他的國家在這個部分管得比較鬆的時候，你認為這樣是好的嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：就是他必須是已經審核結果，只是公開在他們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：就誰審核嘛？"],["郭專門委員威中：他們當地。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，所以這個就有爭議了，你懂我的意思嗎？現在進來是為我們國人看病，不是由他們來訂標準，應該是我們來訂標準才對吧？"],["郭專門委員威中：因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：裡面有一個不採認學歷部分，就是說，遠距教學本來是不行的，但新修訂的這個部分特別加上去，特殊條件下可以採認，這個部分有包含臨床實驗嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：實作都是一定在實體，不會有遠距的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不可能有嘛，對不對？這個部分我覺得你們要寫清楚啦！用學歷採認的時候，要經過一般常態招生或入學管道才可以承認學歷，你修完之後，變成有公開招生就可以喔，那不就是讓國際專班的這個部分就地合法了嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：因為他所謂的公開是說你有公開到，譬如說聯招或是公開在收錄學生，不是透過某一些特殊機制在收取學生的這個部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，我這樣建議啦，就是你們應該把106年的學歷採認原則，一模一樣的放到這個施行細則裡面，這樣才有真正提升法律位階的效果，以免你們講得不清不楚，讓很多人看不懂，部長你覺得呢？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可以啦。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，我必須要再重申一次，像這樣的討論已經經過非常詳盡，連行政院長都主持這樣一個相關的會議，因為有一些團體他們關心……"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我……"],["邱部長泰源：如果真的有因為這樣子而放鬆的話，我們都很願意來做檢討、來做處理……"],["邱委員鎮軍：做檢討啦！"],["邱部長泰源：來做檢討沒有問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我請教部長，醫師法裡面有提到很多次的外國學歷、外國醫事人員，外國人這個詞彙在中華民國的現行法律裡面，這些外國有包含中國大陸嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們目前沒有承認中國大陸的學籍。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛，因為一個中國大陸醫師想要來臺灣執業，在實務上會依兩岸人民關係條例來先處理身分跟資格的問題嘛，對不對？因為兩岸人民關係條例是特別法，它應該是會優先適用，我們一般的法律，我們現在訂的這些規範，它只是一般法律，所以我們會優先用這兩岸人民關係條例來處理，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以如果說要開放大陸地區醫生來臺灣，我們的法律條文裡面就必須寫到大陸地區的醫師，而不是外國醫生，對吧？他不是外國醫生嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：應該不是，不是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：應該會寫到大陸地區的醫生，是這樣嗎？理論上是這樣。"],["邱部長泰源：應該是依照兩岸人民關係條例的文字。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對、對、對，所以謝謝部長，因為之前我們有聽到，我們要開放大陸、中國醫生來臺灣執業這個造謠的事情。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有這回事。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長也認證啦，這些立委好像都不太懂中華民國的法律，我們在這邊謝謝部長的澄清。"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我再請教食安的部分，行政院經貿談判辦公室顏副總談判代表也有列席，你們今天這份報告我真的看不出來你們在談判的前、中、後要怎麼保障我們國人的食品安全跟農民的權益！就食安的角度來講，談判的時候，你們會自己降低食安的標準去配合美國嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們是有分工的，政府是一體的，團隊也是一體的，大家齊心協力，對於食安專業的科學分析，會由我們衛福部這邊來著墨，在談判辦公室那邊應該是在談判的技術，蒐集大家的意見，來維護國家最大的權益。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我不希望以國人的健康來做籌碼，配合美國的演出，雖然美國有提到，我們臺灣檢測萊克多巴胺殘留辦法跟JECFA認可的方法不一致，我們臺灣的標準是比較嚴格的，當然美國是希望我們用寬鬆的標準來認定，談判辦公室的看法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：先請署長回應一下。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，因為牽涉到萊克多巴胺的檢驗部分，那個檢驗是非常科學的，科學的檢驗的過程當中……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們會不會降低標準？"],["姜署長至剛：關於標準的部分，因為檢驗的方式，JECFA其實有公開公告相關標準，國際可以認證的，我們食藥署的研檢組對於開發這些方法及執行的部分都沒有問題，我們都準備好了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我今天提這個，雖然還沒開始談，我只是希望政府能夠站在人民健康的立場，去幫我們人民把關。另外，當然農民的衝擊可能也要考慮到，農業部次長有來，之前我有聽到零關稅這個部分，請次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們之前有聽說我們的關稅要從零開始談。"],["杜次長文珍：那是一個原則，但是不是所有都談到零。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以農業部的看法呢？"],["杜次長文珍：農業部一定跟農民站在一起，維護我們國家農業的安全。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不會是零？我希望你要考量我們農民的生計。"],["杜次長文珍：農業部絕對跟農民站在一起。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們蘇召委和剛剛好幾個委員都有提到，大家都非常擔心，我們一定要保護我們自己農業的發展，還有農民的權益。那經貿辦這邊呢？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想針對農產品的議題，絕對不是只有開放的問題，所以我們一定會尊重我們主政機關的意見，然後以我們國人跟農業、農產的發展為優先。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們一定要站好你的角度、你的立場，好好幫我們的國人、幫我們的農民，好不好？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們一定據理力爭。"],["邱委員鎮軍：希望你們把這件事放在心上。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","接續請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160648","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5d1b08bb1ef578a0c18c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319abf8cd4fcca9df8855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:29:48 - 11:41:20","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:29:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:41:20+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.96221875,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.122218750000002,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.79471875,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.469093750000003,"end":31.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.50284375,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.337843750000005,"end":35.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.85659375,"end":35.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.565343750000004,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.35846875,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.01221875,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.727843750000005,"end":51.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.68534375,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.36159375,"end":82.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.38096875000001,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.59534375000001,"end":90.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.48096875,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.02721875,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.03034375,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.04721875000001,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.60971875,"end":135.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.50346875,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.03846875000002,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.31971875000002,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.18846875,"end":154.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.47534375,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.04471875000002,"end":155.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.88846875000002,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.02346875,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.14159375,"end":156.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.19221875000002,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.20909375000002,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.24034375000002,"end":175.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.81346875,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.63096875000002,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.03159375,"end":198.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.30159375000002,"end":188.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.96346875,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.27096875,"end":194.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":197.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.86909375000002,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.56096875,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.85596875000002,"end":202.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.74596875,"end":212.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":210.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.63909375,"end":213.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.67284375000003,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.01034375,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.02721875,"end":250.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.34346875,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.35471875000002,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.78471875000002,"end":253.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.49471875,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.43971875,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.88971875000004,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.01096875,"end":320.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.75721875,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.03846875000005,"end":336.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.40909375,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.21909375,"end":338.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.26096875,"end":355.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.38159375000004,"end":348.61784375},{"spe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部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":71.8,"end":88.278,"text":"報告委員 我們應該不是這樣的處理啦就是說 第一個包括我們內政委員會的委員或者是大院的委員所提到的有關凍結案的部分呢我們邀請其他的署或者是其他的內政部的人呢就是再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的這個報告"},{"start":90.66,"end":107.644,"text":"那在過去一段時間以來我們都是一直在滾動式的調整那因為那個院長啊這個下令叫我們在今天要送上來的時候呢我們在前兩天啊做最後的一個報告那因為我們的報告的那個蠻多的所以我們都是有逐頁看過大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的"},{"start":112.059,"end":126.312,"text":"大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告因為我們的那個凍結的那個提案相當的多所以每個單位什麼時候再準備我們不知道但是原則上應該是以那個總統對外公佈的那個通過的那個版本為主所以我們是以那個版本開始之後呢再做那個各個不同層次上面的一個解凍的報告"},{"start":135.62,"end":152.266,"text":"那還有包括說如何解凍因為有些是凍結的比例是30% 70%各不相同那還有委員的要求也各不相同部長我其實辦公室有收到資訊內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了那這樣威爾行政院好像國土署就沒辦法"},{"start":153.406,"end":168.4,"text":"國土署就沒辦法應該是要等到總統三年通過之後我這邊其實有一個有一個籤文啦就是資整理決議解凍報告共27案提出書面報告後使得凍之案是19案提出專案報告並經同意後"},{"start":170.462,"end":186.649,"text":"使得動之共濟罷岸我們沒有那麼少報告委員我們沒有那麼少這是其中一個單位所以我剛有說我們在滾動事的部分所以這個是在二月的時候二月底的時候就有一個這樣解凍報告了但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三條對外公佈才算這個簽程的時間因為這是你們內部的"},{"start":192.372,"end":193.393,"text":"因為有關於預算解凍的部分大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位"},{"start":210.294,"end":224.973,"text":"所以我請我們的主任秘書他在綜合整理還有重規思維所以我剛剛有問你嘛什麼時候開始寫解凍報告有沒有跟文化不一樣嗎早早就寫好了那現在才在做這樣的那確實我是有拿到你們內部的一個二月底"},{"start":225.313,"end":250.11,"text":"就已經送上來的一個解凍報告的一個簽程其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽程的時間就可以證明有沒有人在說謊那當然還有一種狀況是有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖但是被部長要求只能統一口徑只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字因此無法送解凍案請問有沒有在這回事"},{"start":250.49,"end":272.249,"text":"報告委員我先跟委員講一個數字我們到目前為止就是說總統公佈3月21號公佈的時候我們凍結58案總共85億那所以這些正確的數字就是要會計室跟我們的行政院的主計總書做確認之後我們才能夠有一致性的一個數目字跟那個大院來送到這邊來參考"},{"start":273.45,"end":288.128,"text":"那那個所以呢在討論的過程當中呢事實上我也在跟委員會在垂詢的時候呢我也按照委員會的講法就是說如果沒有做最後的三讀通過的話呢那個預算的屬於是沒有辦法確確的表達"},{"start":288.669,"end":316.288,"text":"有人会动过的冻结案也不需要院会同意的这些应该都可以尽早送来我想立法院冻结预算我们是为了监督政府问责行政绝对不是像我们目前在外面听到一堆都说是因为蓝白砍预算所以不能做哪个补助不能其实因为行政院一直没有送出这样的一个解冻案而不是立法院不肯解冻所以内政部目前部长您刚刚讲到的这些冻结案"},{"start":317.288,"end":344.248,"text":"還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的可不可以列舉一下報告委員現在我們的這個凍結的這個解凍案如果送到立法院來的時候呢是立法院的院會要能夠附委然後再交辦到每一個委員會所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題都可以送解凍案不是您聽我講一下這裡面的大概書面報告有24案但是專案報告呢一共有34案"},{"start":345.669,"end":361.588,"text":"那所以這個專案報告的話還需要在委員會裡面排除那按照立法院你有沒有經過程序委員會才能交辦下來可以先先送到立法院嗎我們才能去做相關的一個後續的一個程序上的一個一個部分的進行嗎"},{"start":363.656,"end":377.805,"text":"還有另外部長我想請教你很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制雖然剛剛講的三月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了那所以到現在都你們都還不肯交立法院審議那是為了什麼"},{"start":379.81,"end":395.976,"text":"我剛提到了第一個今天送出來然後那個所有的書面的部分我們就一致送出對我剛提到的是其實這些三月份都可以送出的嘛因為書面報告本來就可以送出啦因為它又沒有我們又沒有這個而且是委員會要求的書面報告啊"},{"start":396.916,"end":415.675,"text":"謝謝委員指教我們會來改進好謝謝那另外請教一下部長就是根據監察院的報告指出板橋的福州合一住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的一個狀況那目前當然也很多的就是爆發人頭債權人這個進行法拍交易規避那個閉鎖期"},{"start":417.455,"end":432.37,"text":"那谋取暴力那当然内政部也承认这个难以防止炒作那请问部长跟署长内政部作为主管机关政府十年前推出的这个合一住宅目前的这个状况"},{"start":433.43,"end":461.726,"text":"你們目前我知道已經法院有在偵辦一些了包括說有百人被我們主動移送你們主動提出我們主動移送有35案那現在有百人被起訴嘛那最新的進度是已經開庭七案三案不認罪其中一案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪然後分別處以三年有期徒刑三年三個月有期徒刑兩年五個月的有期徒刑然後另外有三人的名下合一住宅被沒收"},{"start":462.486,"end":485.194,"text":"那我想請教一下部長跟署長因為其實這10年前我們可以看一下價格10年前的價格是一坪18萬現在一坪的價格是52.1萬所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子那現在呢我們看到10年後是52.1萬那尤其是很多的投資客利用這個假債權真買賣的一個方式"},{"start":487.575,"end":511.622,"text":"來去規避我們的這個閉鎖期所以變成我們現在看到的不曉得合一住宅到底是合一住宅還是樂透住宅那尤其是您可以看一下我們最近還發現就是說到109年我想這個可能剛剛署長有講是不是國土署發現然後以這個直接移送的就是有55件法拍案的轉移案其中有高達71%是在權人跟拍定為同一人沒錯"},{"start":515.143,"end":532.829,"text":"然後而且還有是同一個地震室來處理數十件的一個案件那請問一下國土署未來要如何避免缺失再次發生跟委員報告這就是為什麼要推社會住宅而不要再做合一住宅的最主要原因因為像這一類的案件"},{"start":533.444,"end":554.031,"text":"你只要透過是政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題那所以包含了現在還有一些縣市還在推我們現在其實都不希望他們再推那第二個在這過程當中我們為什麼要主動移送因為我們主動移送以後我們只要掌握確切的你跟違背當時的政策目的我們是主動把它買回"},{"start":555.912,"end":579.304,"text":"依原價格的八五折買回那買回以後全部當社會住宅用這樣的方式剛剛我提到有三個人目前名下的合一住宅被沒收那針對這個部分國土署有沒有跟這些違法者有 我們透過律師再跟他們談因為我就是希望他們同意直接用八五折賣否則我們就會持續那目前執行的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":579.784,"end":597.257,"text":"我們目前已經收回兩戶了還有一戶就對了因為未來案件還很多嘛所以都透過法律訴訟持續的來進行那對於這個你們買回來的這個八五折的這個合宜住宅未來您剛講是要做社會住宅也就是只租不售了"},{"start":598.678,"end":616.881,"text":"要辦的話這樣子就其實都會有很多的這種風險那另外就是說我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛那請問一下就是說針對這個部分未來針對社會住宅的不管是轉租轉借或者也有可能被濫用補貼的一個狀況有沒有設下什麼防範機制"},{"start":618.242,"end":634.03,"text":"我們如果是直接興建的部分我們是透過管理上我們每年都會做查核都會做查核確認是不是什麼樣的查核因為我們都會做住戶的拜訪在林口的部分都會做住戶的拜訪實際了解他的狀況是不是真的租這裡"},{"start":634.93,"end":660.184,"text":"那在租金補貼跟包租代管的部分我們都會透過資料的勾結比對像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶有兩百多案是假補貼的就是真零錢但是假補貼那這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對那或是電話的查詢主動去找出這些問題就是希望他們不要有腐爛申請或是說用轉租的方式"},{"start":660.404,"end":686.605,"text":"那請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核一樣都有大概多久的時間我們都是就是因為我們有一個專案辦公室是都會透過第一個資料的比對第二個會去用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡那這樣的方式的話是比較能夠防止是OK好那可能請部長跟署長針對這個部分希望我們能夠把這個社會住宅留給真正需要的人謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":689.119,"end":690.367,"text":"好,謝謝徐議員跟委員會報告一下"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時29分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部劉世芳部長跟國土署吳欣修署長。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：劉部長、吳署長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好、署長好。部長，針對各部會的解凍案，現在卓院長已經正式開綠燈，請各部會儘速將1,584項的解凍報告儘速送到立法院，請問部長，內政部何時可以將解凍報告送到立法院？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在行政院要求我們在星期四要送到立法院，我們在前兩……"],["許委員宇甄：星期四就今天嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：對，今天星期四，就今天。"],["許委員宇甄：送到立法院。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好。請問一下部長，您應該有看到這個公文，文化部的公務員出來爆料說他們早就寫好解凍報告了，所以請他們務必要再瀏覽一次，要改一下，確認不會有被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送的字眼，並適時更新數據。請問內政部跟所屬的機關有沒有這樣的狀況？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們應該不是這樣處理啦，第一個，包括我們內政委員會的委員或是大院的委員提到有關凍結案的部分，我們邀請其他的署或是其他內政部的人再討論一下如何寫這個解凍案的報告。在過去一段時間以來，我們一直都在滾動式調整，因為院長下令叫我們要在今天送上來的時候，我們在前兩天做最後的報告，因為我們的報告滿多的，所以我們都有逐頁看過。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，大概是什麼時候開始準備這個解凍報告的？"],["劉部長世芳：大概什麼時候開始準備解凍報告，因為我們的凍結的提案相當多，所以每個單位什麼時候在準備，我們不知道，但是原則上應該是以總統對外公布的通過版本為主，所以我們是以那個版本開始之後，再做各個不同層次上的解凍報告，還有包括如何解凍，因為有些凍結的比例是30%、70%，各不相同，還有委員的要求也各不相同。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，其實辦公室有收到資訊，內政部所屬的單位其實在2月底就已經寫好解凍報告了，當然為了行政院……"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，像國土署就沒辦法，應該是要等到總統三讀通過之後的。"],["許委員宇甄：我這邊其實有一個簽文，就是茲整理決議解凍報告共27案，提出書面報告後始得動支案是19案，提出專案報告並經同意後始得動支共計8案，這是你們2月份的……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們沒有那麼少。"],["許委員宇甄：這是其中一個單位。"],["劉部長世芳：那是其中一個單位，所以我剛剛有說這都是在滾動式調整。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是在2月的時候就有這樣一個解凍報告了。"],["劉部長世芳：但是那時候的預算數要經過總統府的三讀對外公布才算。"],["許委員宇甄：如果你查一下就可以查出來這個簽呈的時間，因為這是你們內部的，剛剛聽說……"],["劉部長世芳：不是每個部會都一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在講的是內政部喔！"],["劉部長世芳：對不起，不是每一個署或者司都一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：所以表示有的2月就已經寫好了，可能還壓在部裡嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，跟委員報告，有關於預算解凍的部分，大致上就是會計單位跟我們的業務單位，所以我請我們的主任秘書綜合整理，還有綜規司。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我剛剛有問你什麼時候開始寫解凍報告，有沒有跟文化部一樣早早就寫好了，現在才在做這樣的……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["許委員宇甄：確實我是有拿到你們內部2月底就已經有送上解凍報告的一個簽呈，其實你可以查一下所屬單位送上簽呈的時間，就可以證明有沒有人在說謊。當然還有一種狀況是，有些單位寫了兩種解凍案的說帖，但是被部長要求只能統一口徑，只能說都是因為立法院算不出凍結數字，因此無法送解凍案，請問有沒有這回事？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我先跟委員講一個數字，我們到目前為止，就是總統3月21號公布的時候，我們凍結的是58案，總共85億，所以這些正確的數字，就是要會計室跟行政院主計總處確認之後，我們才能夠有一致性的數目字，送到大院參考，所以在討論的過程當中，事實上在委員會垂詢的時候，我也按照委員會的講法，就是如果沒有最後三讀通過的話，那個預算的數字我們沒有辦法明確的表達。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，委員會通過的凍結案，也不需要院會同意的，這些應該都可以儘早送來。我想立法院凍結預算，我們是為了監督政府、問責行政，絕對不是像我們目前在外面聽到一堆都說是因為藍白砍預算，所以不能做哪個補助等等，其實是因為行政院一直沒有送出解凍案，而不是立法院不肯解凍。目前內政部的部分，部長，您剛剛講到的這些凍結案，還有哪一個是沒有辦法達成條件的，可不可以列舉一下？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在我們凍結的解凍案如果送到立法院來，立法院的院會要能夠付委，然後再交辦到每一個委員會。目前……"],["許委員宇甄：所以對於內政部來說都沒有問題、都可以送解凍案了，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，您聽我講一下，這裡面大概書面報告有24案，但是專案報告一共有34案，而專案報告還需要在委員會裡面排程，按照立法院……"],["許委員宇甄：所以書面報告可以先送了嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：立法院還要經過程序委員會再付委，才能交辦下來。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我知道，書面報告可以先送到立法院嗎？我們才能去做後續相關程序上的進行嘛。另外，部長，我想請教你，很多單位的預算解凍並沒有特別限制，就像剛剛講的3月份總統公告之後其實就可以送出了，所以到現在你們都還不肯交立法院審議，那是為了什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛提到了，今天送出來，所有的書面部分我們就一致送出。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我剛剛講到的是，其實這些3月份都可以先送出了嘛，因為書面報告本來就可以送出了，而且是委員會要求的書面報告。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員指教，我們會來改進。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。","另外，請教一下部長，根據監察院的報告指出，板橋的浮州合宜住宅大量出現假債權真買賣的狀況，目前當然也爆發很多人頭債權人進行法拍交易，規避閉鎖期，謀取暴利，當然內政部也承認這個難以防止炒作。請問部長跟署長，內政部作為主管機關，政府十年前推出的合宜住宅，目前的狀況，我知道法院已經有在偵辦一些，包括有百人被……"],["吳署長欣修：應該是說我們主動移送的。"],["許委員宇甄：你們主動提出。"],["吳署長欣修：我們主動移送有35案。"],["許委員宇甄：現在有百人被起訴嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：最新的進度是已經開庭7案，3案不認罪，其中1案涉及兩名被告共同犯詐欺得利罪，分別處以三年三個月有期徒刑、兩年五個月的有期徒刑，另外有3人名下的合宜住宅被沒收。我想請教一下部長跟署長，我們可以看一下十年前的價格是1坪18萬，現在1坪的價格是52.1萬，所以當時是希望能夠讓民眾買得起房子，現在我們看到十年後是52.1萬，尤其是很多的投資客利用假債權真買賣的方式來規避閉鎖期，所以變成我們現在看到的，不曉得合宜住宅到底是合宜住宅還是樂透住宅。尤其是您可以看一下，我們最近還發現，到109年，我想剛剛署長有講，是不是國土署發現然後直接移送的……"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們都已經主動移送。"],["許委員宇甄：就是有55件法拍案的轉移案，其中有高達71%是債權人跟拍定為同一人。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["許委員宇甄：而且還有是同一個地政士來處理數十件的案件。請問一下國土署，未來要如何避免缺失再次發生？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這就是為什麼要推社會住宅，而不要再做合宜住宅的最主要原因，因為像這一類的案件，只要是透過政府出售的就一定會面對這個問題，所以現在還有一些縣市還在推，我們其實都不希望他們再推。第二個，在這個過程當中，我們為什麼要主動移送，因為主動移送以後，只要掌握確切是違背當時的政策目的，我們就主動把它買回，以原價格的85折買回，買回以後全部當社會住宅，用這樣的方式來遏止這個問題。"],["許委員宇甄：署長，剛剛我提到目前就有3個人名下的合宜住宅被沒收，針對這個部分，國土署有沒有跟這些違法者看怎麼和解，買回房產？"],["吳署長欣修：有，我們透過律師在跟他們談，因為就是希望他們同意直接用85折賣，否則我們就會持續……"],["許委員宇甄：目前執行的進度怎麼樣？"],["吳署長欣修：我們目前已經收回兩戶了。"],["許委員宇甄：還有一戶就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：因為未來案件還很多嘛，可能這樣的狀況還很多。"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以都透過法律訴訟持續在進行。"],["許委員宇甄：好。對於你們以85折買回來的合宜住宅，您剛剛講未來是要做社會住宅？"],["吳署長欣修：對，就全部做社宅。"],["許委員宇甄：就是只租不售了？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，好，要不然的話，這樣其實都會有很多風險。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：另外就是說，我們現在看到已經改推社會住宅了嘛，請問一下，未來針對社會住宅的轉租、轉介，或者也有可能被濫用補貼的狀況，有沒有設下什麼防範機制？"],["吳署長欣修：如果是直接興建的部分，我們是透過在管理上每年都會做查核的方式，都會查核確認承租人是不是……"],["許委員宇甄：什麼樣的查核呢？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們都會做住戶拜訪，在林口的部分都會做住戶拜訪，實際了解他的狀況，看他是不是真的住在這裡。至於租金補貼跟包租代管的部分，我們都會透過資料的勾稽比對，像我們租金補貼到目前已經有兩百多戶是假補貼的，就是真領錢但是假補貼，這個部分我們都有透過資料的交叉比對或是電話查詢，主動去找出這些問題，就是希望他們不要有浮濫申請或是用轉租的方式。"],["許委員宇甄：請問對於弱勢資格的審查是不是也有定期的查核？"],["吳署長欣修：一樣都有。"],["許委員宇甄：大概多久的時間？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們有一個專案辦公室，都會透過第一個是資料的比對，第二個是用電話查詢他是不是真的住在那裡，這樣的方式比較能夠防止。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，請部長跟署長針對這個部分再多加強，希望我們能夠把社會住宅留給真正需要的人。謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","跟委員會報告，因為今天有提案說明，比較晚開始詢答，到現在為止都還沒有休息，我們就休息3分鐘。","休息（11時41分）","繼續開會（11時46分）"],["主席：報告委員會，繼續開會。","向委員報告，我們中午不休息，開會到詢答結束為止。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e59be7e67d6c41a2f318c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a326b0209a3ccd1cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:15:26 - 11:29:39","影片長度":"00:14:13","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:15:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:29:39+08:00","duration":853,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.65096875,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.480968750000002,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.52721875,"end":10.915343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.15159375,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.40534375,"end":81.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.80721875,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.08596875,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.24034375000002,"end":174.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.86846875,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.69471875000002,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.47721875000002,"end":198.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.93284375000002,"end":197.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.68346875,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.78034375000001,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.88534375,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.49284375000002,"end":204.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.91034375,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.56409375,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.96471875,"end":209.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.50034375,"end":211.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.82909375000003,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.54596875000001,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.82409375,"end":218.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.67596875,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.94159375,"end":224.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.71721875,"end":226.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.16846875000002,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.97409375,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.45846875,"end":239.65596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.17909375000002,"end":244.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.35971875,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.40096875,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.97034375,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.33284375000002,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.02784375000005,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.06159375000004,"end":263.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.24721875,"end":264.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.93909375000004,"end":264.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.91784375000003,"end":268.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.13659375000003,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.97534375000004,"end":285.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.09659375,"end":284.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.58534375,"end":288.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.27284375,"end":298.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.39784375,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.73534375,"end":314.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.83096875,"end":307.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.89846875,"end":307.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.93221875,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.96909375,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.34784375000004,"end":333.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.88596875,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.21034375000005,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.22721875,"end":338.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.02034375,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.03721875,"end":358.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.87596875,"end":343.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.36846875000003,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.28721875,"end":360.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.37971875,"end":378.73971875},{"speaker":"SPE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劉部長吳署長有請委員好"},{"start":10.578,"end":36.306,"text":"好 部長辛苦了因為剛剛我是會議主席所以我簡單講一下這個住宅法我們這邊的提案說明這個本次住宅法的修正本席提的兩個法案修正案分數如下第一個是修正第10條第57條之一部分主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化也就是說不管是包租貸款甚至是申請租金補貼因為現在其實大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受這個政府對於居住正義的努力"},{"start":37.046,"end":61.597,"text":"但是你收取補貼的時候我們花了非常多的人民的納稅錢要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已不能只停在福利的層面而是要讓這筆開支效益最大化所以在申請租金補貼的時候其實應該是要有房屋租賃房屋的相關資訊包含地址契約起息日每月租金數額租屋型態租屋面積比例等等這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候政府就已經取得這些資料了"},{"start":62.037,"end":87.24,"text":"那公寓出租人也依租宅法第15條一項規定就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的一些政策優惠所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分的來做揭露透過更大的市場透明去避免租屋黑市才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好或者是租金的補貼也好發揮這個更大的政策作用另外新增第21條之一的部分是講所謂的社宅土地儲備"},{"start":88.241,"end":113.48,"text":"剛剛前面的委員質詢的時候其實也有提到這署長當然擔心民文入法不見得取得但是如果看一下法條的內容大家就會知道就是說這是在強制全部做區段徵收或者是勢力重劃之後取得的所有的配餘地不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售而是要留一定的比例而且作為社會住宅的建築用地使用也許中央沒辦法取得因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府但是地方政府可以取得嘛"},{"start":113.78,"end":134.696,"text":"那只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情我想把它明文入法化我覺得是有其必要的這是提案說明那今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長跟署長討論一下這個一樣啦我們都還是談社會住宅啦因為我看縱觀這麼多委員跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本其實大部分"},{"start":135.376,"end":160.095,"text":"雖然方向若有不同但是大多還是都關切其實社會住宅入住戶的這個資格提這樣子版本的委員是相對多的那麼也非常多關心其實是中遷率的問題包含稍早我們各委員會各委員的詢答其實都有問嘛我們到底供給的數量夠不夠啊等待的時間有多長啊中遷的比率會有多少的影響啊現行的機制顯然有一定的改進之處"},{"start":161.158,"end":174.314,"text":"那我想請問一下署長部長也可以啦 如果部長知道的話如果部長不知道 署長回答我們現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人排隊等待等待啦 就是等待中籤的這一群人"},{"start":176.119,"end":204.572,"text":"根文包的確只有我們的啦那各縣市的都不一致沒關係你中央有的數據我們現在光那個光林口到上一波我印象沒有記錯我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700人700個人在等對然後可能每三四個月只會釋出個位數只會釋出個位數嘛所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等嘛對對對然後這只是其中一個案例"},{"start":205.032,"end":226.457,"text":"你如果全國各地呢那應該更多啦那應該更多對不對應該而且大部分應該現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都吧北三都嘛當然嘛北漂工作等等確實條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點嘛那這樣子你們從這樣子的數據來看你們覺得現在社宅的缺口還有多少社宅的缺口對"},{"start":227.893,"end":254.142,"text":"你要看到多少戶才不會有等待的問題所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到一個所謂的低標也就是說25萬戶其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量的最低標那時候可能就會削減掉比較多的這個輪候的這個部分如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員答詢就講說我們達到2.5%之後我們再來做輪候嘛不是就是說那時候輪候的效果"},{"start":255.796,"end":274.996,"text":"就是輪候的效果它的效率會提高啦今天沒有達到那個時候輪候的效率其實是很低的啦但是還是要做吧我覺得因為就是因為缺乏的時候大家對於那種我今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的那種感受才會特別強烈不是嗎可是換另外一個角度就是因為"},{"start":275.785,"end":297.832,"text":"重複登記的就是跨跨點登記的會暴增因為當你的數量不太夠的時候所以大家都會搶嘛其實就是搶對不對所以會看到那個數字會更更膨脹會膨脹得比較厲害你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽薪當然就會出現這樣的狀況所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公廳會嘛很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到就是說你應該是統一登記嘛"},{"start":298.904,"end":320.792,"text":"然後你當然你可以做調整嘛比如說我們上次公聽會其實建議叫做不只是輪候還有積分制嘛也就是說你用不同的身份你有不同的分數嘛你如果集中登記不要在那邊亂槍打鳥你分數可能高一點其實我覺得這些都可以透過平台的技術手段來做解決啦但是我對於署長剛剛去回答其他人講說我要等到低標存量的時候我再來推輪候我個人是非常質疑啦"},{"start":323.235,"end":336.332,"text":"那時候輪候的效果才會出來但是也不表示現在不能推對不對其實現在我們有重複在考慮就一併做了但是會跟大家講說一開始效果不會很好是因為那個數字會被膨脹的很大"},{"start":337.253,"end":357.743,"text":"沒關係你針對不同的樣態我們可以找各個世界各國也許他的實踐的狀況來做交叉的參酌我們也可以討論制度的設計我想這次我們去排住宅法的修正其實就是希望針對這件事情做一下討論因為我是覺得如果要討論現在他討論說我們要放寬多少弱勢戶的比例一般戶的比例你增多"},{"start":358.413,"end":386.14,"text":"加多加少其實你都動輒得咎嘛就我增加了一般戶的比例其實弱勢戶就被壓縮了福利的本質就不見了但你如果把它納入好像又有重複中簽的問題所以它導致很多的問題所以我其實覺得以目前來看這個建立統一的平台處理需求把身份東西重新整理然後把抽籤改成輪候恐怕是比較眼下比較需要的做法署長你同意這樣說嗎對我們其實是用逐步來建立這樣的一個資料平台"},{"start":386.92,"end":403.338,"text":"現在的狀況的確是這樣這個上一次喔這個我們在討論一開始在討論租屋的題目的時候是談租屋市場透明嘛所以你也講你要逐步嘛我這個人一向非常開放就是說我會給你時間去做這個事情那我現在問你啊如果說我們現在討論統一登記平台輪候制的這樣子一個設計請問你的時間表是什麼"},{"start":406.452,"end":432.931,"text":"我們現在就是說剛剛有提到就是說因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪的那所以我們現在的狀況是說我們先把這個所謂的資料欄成豬現在過去成豬的資料欄格我們現在做一個統整也就是說像剛剛委員所提到我們希望你包含你現在租金補貼領售戶的那你現在所需要的這些欄位我們先把它做一個統整讓大家可以去填"},{"start":433.351,"end":452.855,"text":"那同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求都會接接在一起因為這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚也就是我今天不是只有登記我還需要知道你的狀況還有你的這一個所需要的方向所以它有一個資料庫然後有一個平台對不對對對對那具體來講這個資料庫或這個平台什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家的面前"},{"start":453.769,"end":469.831,"text":"我們現在是今年會把整個架構都把它呈現出來先把架構呈現出來然後會現在是目前跟跟這個住都跟跟我們的知福斯都已經在討論那我們這個架構出來以後我們要用什麼樣的方式住都來建呢"},{"start":470.311,"end":496.203,"text":"還是來請知福市來幫忙建那這個部分我們都有在討論當中我們希望這個欄位確認跟各縣市討論如果都確認那我們就先來把這個東西你把推動這樣子的一個計畫的詳細時間表嘛比如說我幾月之前要開完多少會嘛什麼時候我要申出架構什麼時候我要再跟比如說大家學者專家商量等等你總有一個計畫圖嘛對不對你這個會後來提供好不好好因為這個不管是住宅法要不要因為我們要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面"},{"start":496.983,"end":518.115,"text":"跟你的行政措施你會要求要彈性嘛因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法我們是希望一邊做一邊讓他保持有彈性我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據啦今天大家答詢前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常非常的紮實嘛好不好這個也請部長要叮嚀一下好不好把相關你們現在如果不希望修法那你們的政策作為是什麼"},{"start":518.795,"end":548.235,"text":"好 相關的資料要做一下提升好 第二個我們談輪候制之外其實背後都核心原因啦就是社宅供不應求嘛才不會有這麼多的問題那為什麼會供不應求除了建設的速度當然說原物料上漲啦什麼取得土地不見得容易等等的一些因素之外其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要做一個通盤的考量嘛過去我們針對針對房東有很多的大赦條款這一次的住宅法的修正也有很多講說我們把免稅額度再放寬其實目的是什麼"},{"start":549.335,"end":569.228,"text":"部長你知道目的是什麼嗎?我希望更多的房東來加入好,更多的房東來加入,對不對?其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的嘛,對不對?這是叫做增加供給的概念嘛,對不對?可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好你們覺得有充分釋出嗎?"},{"start":572.054,"end":596.744,"text":"應該這麼說啦因為透過包租代管系統的話其實這樣的成長數字其實是一直在快速擴增當中我不是講包租代管我講的是一般市場我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量的釋出因為我們之前討論租屋市場透明化對不對然後有些人擔心說會定毛為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去其實不外乎就是持有的成本太低了嘛"},{"start":597.384,"end":626.839,"text":"也就是說我現在要不然配合你包租代管或者是我要直接出租等等我要付出的代價我不如乾脆放著如果那個租金不夠高我乾脆給他放著我們現在全部閒置的本來可以出租但不能出租的各式各樣的空屋啊空的房子啊數字你國土署有沒有統計過呃閒置的對大家演講空屋稅囤房稅這種空空在那邊沒有在用的明明可以出租給大家的沒有在出租的數字是多少"},{"start":629.326,"end":631.669,"text":"這個10%的房屋如果充分的釋出到租屋市場會不會降低租金水準"},{"start":645.09,"end":668.662,"text":"會所以我不希望說我們現在討論住宅法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅規範包租貸款等等但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低未來房市的負擔不要太大關鍵還是正常市場那請問內政部部長或者是國土組組長針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場你們有什麼配套措施"},{"start":671.908,"end":692.529,"text":"其實我們在之前一些包租貸款的策略上,其實最早都有希望討論這一些但是後來也經過一些案例,實證大概是這樣因為很多的空屋,尤其所謂的低度用電戶,他其實都在等待著可能類似,因為在等待房地合一睡"},{"start":693.649,"end":712.532,"text":"他也等待防疫了第二個他如果有多汙足他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的我有公益出租人我這一個免稅有多少他更擔心的綜合所得稅的問題綜合所得稅嘛綜合所得稅啊這些也是我們在歷史跟財政部有在討論啦但是財政部他在考慮整個租稅的合理條件的狀況他其實"},{"start":713.192,"end":730.242,"text":"也沒有辦法同意說這個時候又再大的方法之所以有這麼多人持有空第一個是持有成本太低對不對 持有成本太低不需要付代價第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大不管是綜合所得稅以及你一旦出租房子你就沒有一生一世的房地合一稅等等的稅率優惠通通不見了所以對房東來講我寧願控制"},{"start":731.303,"end":748.773,"text":"我覺得這件事情雖然他跟財政部要做一個跨部的協調但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵嘛我們的房地產市場租屋市場能不能正常化其實我覺得在這個地方在稅率的部分要做徹底的檢討所以我覺得住宅法是一軌但是財稅的部分是一軌這個我們希望內政部部長這邊我要這個就要拜託你了"},{"start":750.514,"end":774.703,"text":"這雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好但是跨部溝通就是要求在持有成本的增加逼著這些房東把空的房子試出來逼著這些投資客拿出來出租這個我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法因為我們剛剛也講我們要增加社宅的供給你盡量去蓋你取得土地我們都給你相關的政策工具你要降低大家對社宅的需求就是你一般市場的房源要試出來"},{"start":775.603,"end":780.292,"text":"所以這部分我希望有明確的這個進度可以嗎今天複稅署也有代表過來要不要請他來可以"},{"start":785.149,"end":809.736,"text":"跟委員報告我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革從今年開始我們就會加重那個多屋族的這個囤房稅他的稅率會加重但是他如果房東把他的房子試出來出租的話他的房屋稅就可以降低就比照自用住宅嘛對不對是是是這個已經有改革然後今年5月是第一次首次首年上路啦那我們會持續觀望這個實施的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":810.556,"end":820.573,"text":"你覺得剛剛我們這個內政部這邊講這個現在空的房子是10%左右在這樣的制度上路之後有沒有KPI會下降到幾%你們有沒有討論過這個事"},{"start":822.694,"end":848.994,"text":"我們會持續報稅因為今年五月才第一次首年上路沒關係這個題目我們先打開放著但我希望負稅者做一下思考就如果房東的減稅誘因不夠你要大赤條款都可以討論但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來嘛我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求所以很高嘛所以我覺得除了這個社會住宅的討論之外這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了請各政府單位做好準備可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":851.53,"end":851.852,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉欣"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時15分）謝謝主席。有請劉部長、吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長辛苦了。因為剛剛我是會議主席，所以我簡單講一下住宅法的提案說明。本次住宅法的修正，本席提了兩個修正案，分述如下：第一個是修正第十條、第五十七條之一，主軸是租賃住宅市場透明化，也就是不管是包租代管，甚至申請租金補貼，因為現在大部分人是用申請租金補貼的方式來感受政府對於居住正義的努力。但是補貼的時候花了非常多人民的納稅錢，要促進居住正義不能只有發錢而已，不能只有停在福利的層面，而是要讓這一筆開支效益最大化，所以在申請租金補貼的時候，其實應該要有租賃房屋的相關資訊，包含地址、契約起迄日、每月租金數額、租屋型態、租屋面積比例等等。這些租屋資訊其實在租屋人領取租屋補貼的時候，政府就已經取得這些資料了。公益出租人也依住宅法第十五條第一項規定，就租金收入享有免納綜合所得稅等等的政策優惠，所以這些資訊本來就應該要充分揭露，透過更大的市場透明避免租屋黑市，才會讓這筆不管是租稅的減免也好，或者是租金的補貼也好，發揮更大的政策綜效。","另外，新增第二十一條之一是所謂的社宅土地儲備，剛剛前面委員質詢的時候其實也有提到，署長很擔心明文入法不見得取得，如果看一下法條內容大家就知道，這是在強制做區段徵收或者是市地重劃之後取得的所有配餘地，不可以全部以抵費地的方式來出售，而是要留一定的比例作為社會住宅的建築用地使用。也許中央沒辦法取得，因為主辦的機構不見得是中央政府，但是地方政府可以取得，只要中央政府跟地方政府有一個默契要怎麼來做這件事情，我想把它明文入法化有其必要。這是提案說明。","今天藉由質詢的時間要跟部長、署長討論一下，一樣都還是談社會住宅，因為綜觀這麼多委員、跨黨派的委員提出了非常多住宅法修法的版本，大部分雖然方向若有不同，但大多還是都關切社會住宅入住戶的資格，提這樣版本的委員是相對多的。那麼也有非常多關心中籤率的問題，包含稍早各委員的詢答其實都有問，到底供給的數量夠不夠、等待的時間有多長、中籤的比率會有多少影響，現行機制顯然有一定的改進之處。我想請問一下署長，部長也可以，如果部長知道的話；如果部長不知道，請署長回答，現在在排隊等待全國各地社會住宅抽籤的總共有多少人？就是等待中籤的這群人。"],["吳署長欣修：的確，我們只有我們的，各縣市的都不一致。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，就中央有的數據。"],["吳署長欣修：我們現在光是林口到上一波，我印象沒有記錯，我曾經看過最誇張的數字是將近700。"],["牛委員煦庭：700個人在等？"],["吳署長欣修：對，可能每三、四個月只會釋出個位數。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以就是700個人等不到一間或者兩間等等。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這只是其中一個案例，如果全國各地呢？"],["吳署長欣修：那應該更多。"],["牛委員煦庭：那應該更多，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：而且現在狀況最多應該是集中在北三都。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然北漂工作等等，區位條件比較良好當然就成為出租的熱點。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：從這樣的數據來看，你們覺得現在社宅缺口還有多少？"],["吳署長欣修：社宅的缺口？"],["牛委員煦庭：對。你要蓋到多少戶，才不會有等待的問題？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會說我們現在是努力達到所謂的低標，也就是25萬戶，其實25萬戶就是我們認定的社宅存量最低標，那時候可能就會削減掉比較多輪候的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果按照剛剛署長回答其他委員的答詢，達到2.5%之後再來輪候。"],["吳署長欣修：不是！那時候輪候的效率會提高，沒有達到那個時候，輪候的效率其實是很低的。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我覺得還是要做吧？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是因為缺乏的時候，大家對於今天能不能入住社宅純粹只是運氣問題的感受才會特別強烈，不是嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：可是換另外一個角度，重複登記的，就是跨點登記的會暴增，當數量不太夠的時候，他更會搶……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以大家都會搶嘛！其實就是搶，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：所以會看到數字更膨脹，會膨脹得比較厲害。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在採取各自登記然後各自抽籤，當然就會出現這樣的狀況，所以為什麼不管是上一次我們辦公聽會，很多學者專家或者是今天很多委員其實都有提到，應該是統一登記，當然也可以調整，比如說上次公聽會其實是建議不只輪候，還有積分制，也就是說用不同的身分有不同的分數，如果集中登記，不要亂槍打鳥，分數可能高一點，其實我覺得這些都可以透過平臺的技術、手段解決啦！但是我對於署長剛剛回答其他人說，要等到低標存量的時候再來推輪候，我個人是非常質疑，因為我覺得越缺的時候越需要輪候，才會公平啊！"],["吳署長欣修：我剛剛不是……我是說那時候的輪候效果才會出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是也不表示現在不能推，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，其實現在我們考慮一併做，但是會跟大家講一開始效果不會很好，因為那個數字會被膨脹得很大。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，針對不同的樣態，我們可以找世界各國實踐的狀況交叉參酌，我們也可以討論制度的設計，我想這次我們排住宅法的修正，其實就是希望針對這些事情做一下討論。我是覺得如果要討論，現在討論要放寬多少弱勢戶、一般戶的比例，你加多、加少其實都動輒得咎嘛！增加了一般戶的比例，弱勢戶就被壓縮了，福利的本質就不見了，但是如果把他納入，好像又有重複中籤的問題，導致很多問題，所以我覺得以目前來看，建立統一平臺處理需求，把身分重新整理，然後把抽籤改成輪候，恐怕是眼下比較需要的作法。署長，你同意這樣說嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們其實是逐步建立這樣的資料平臺，現在的狀況的確是這樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：上一次我們一開始在討論租屋題目的時候是談租屋市場透明，你也講要逐步，我這個人一向非常開放，我會給你時間去做這個事情。我現在問你，如果我們現在討論統一登記平臺輪候制這樣的設計，請問你的時間表是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：我們剛剛有提到，就是因為剛好六都也都執行完一輪了，所以現在的狀況是，我們先把過去承租的資料欄格統整，也就是像剛剛委員所提到，我們希望包含租金補貼領受戶，現在所需要的這些欄位先統整，讓大家可以填，同時這些資料也會跟未來社宅的需求介接在一起，這樣才會把需求端看得更清楚，也就是今天不是只有登記，我還需要知道你的狀況還有所需要的房型。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以要有一個資料庫，然後有一個平臺，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：具體來講，這個資料庫或平臺什麼時候才能夠呈現在大家面前？"],["吳署長欣修：我們今年會把整個架構呈現出來，先把架構呈現出來，目前跟住都、資服司都已經在討論，這個架構出來以後要用什麼樣的方式，是住都來建還是請資服司幫忙建等部分我們都有在討論當中，我們希望欄位跟各縣市討論如果都確認，就先把這個建起來。"],["牛委員煦庭：你推動計畫的詳細時間表，比如說幾月之前要開完多少會、什麼時候要生出架構、什麼時候要再跟比如說學者專家商量等等，你總有一個計畫圖，會後提供好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你知道不管是住宅法，我們要不要把這個機制直接修到法律裡面，跟你的行政措施會要求要彈性嘛！因為我看你整本報告都不希望修法。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們是希望一邊做，一邊讓它保有彈性，這樣會比較好一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我們要有充分的資料作為討論的依據，今天大家答詢，前面開公聽會其實不外乎就是讓資料非常、非常地紮實嘛！這個也請部長要叮嚀一下，好不好？你們現在如果不希望修法，那你們的政策作為是什麼？相關的資料再做一下提升。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，我們談輪候制之外，其實背後都有核心原因就是社宅供不應求，才會有這麼多的問題，為什麼會供不應求？當然除了建設速度受到原物料上漲、取得土地不見得容易等等一些因素之外，其實我覺得租屋市場本來就要通盤考量，過去我們針對房東有很多大赦條款，這次住宅法的修正也有很多人說把免稅額度再放寬，其實目的是什麼？部長，你知道目的是什麼嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：就是希望更多的房東加入。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，更多的房東加入，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實就是希望一般市場也可以釋出更多的租屋標的，這叫作增加供給的概念，可是現在看起來好像狀況不是特別好，你們覺得有充分釋出嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，透過包租代管系統的話，這樣的成長數字其實一直在快速擴增當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：我不是講包租代管，我講的是一般市場，我今天要討論的是一般市場的問題，就是說一般市場為什麼沒有辦法大量釋出？我們之前討論租屋市場透明化，然後有些人擔心會定錨，為什麼核心的原因總是繞不出去？其實不外乎就是持有成本太低了，也就是說現在不管是要配合包租代管或者是要直接出租等等，我要付出代價不如乾脆放著，如果租金不夠高，我乾脆放著。現在全部閒置本來可以出租但不能出租等各式各樣的空屋數字，國土署有沒有統計過？"],["吳署長欣修：閒置的？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，大家以前講空屋稅、囤房稅，這種空在那邊沒有在用，明明可以出租給大家卻沒有出租的數字是多少？"],["林代理司長家正：低度用電的部分，我們統計處有調查，現在大概是住宅存量的10%，大概一成左右，數量我可能要確定一下，因為我們沒有特別背起來。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個10%的房屋如果充分釋出到租屋市場，會不會降低租金水準？"],["吳署長欣修：會。"],["牛委員煦庭：會嘛！所以我不希望我們現在討論住宅法，法律的內容我們只能規範社會住宅、包租代管等等，但是真正要讓不管是租屋的租金降低，未來房市的負擔不要太大，關鍵還是正常市場。請問內政部部長或者是國土署署長，針對大幅增加讓空屋釋出進入租屋市場，你們有沒有什麼配套措施？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們在之前一些包租代管的策略上，最早都希望討論這一些。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["吳署長欣修：但是後來也經過一些案例實證大概是這樣，很多空屋，尤其所謂的低度用電戶，他其實可能因為在等待房地合一稅。第二個，如果是多屋族，他其實擔心的不是只有我們剛剛講的公益出租人免稅額多少，他更擔心綜合所得稅的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，是他一生一次的……綜合所得稅嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：這些我們歷次都有跟財政部討論，但是財政部考慮整個租稅的合理條件，他其實也沒有辦法同意這個時候再大幅放寬。"],["牛委員煦庭：之所以有這麼多人持有空屋，第一個是持有成本太低，不需要付代價。第二個是未來稅賦的壓力很大，不管是綜合所得稅，以及一旦出租房子就沒有一生一次的房地合一稅等等的，一些稅率優惠通通不見了，所以對房東來講，他寧願空著。這件事情雖然要跟財政部跨部協調，但是我覺得這個事情才是真正的關鍵，我們的房地產市場、租屋市場能不能正常化，其實我覺得在這個地方、在稅率的部分要澈底檢討。所以住宅法是一軌，但是財稅的部分是一軌，我們希望內政部部長努力，這個就要拜託你了。雖然專業的部分署長回答的都很好，但是跨部溝通，就是要求持有成本增加，逼著這些房東把空的房子釋出來，逼著這些投資客拿出來出租，我覺得才是釜底抽薪的方法。因為我們剛剛也講，我們要增加社宅的供給，你儘量去蓋、你取得土地，我們都給你相關的政策工具，要降低大家對社宅的需求就是一般市場的租屋房源要釋出來。這一部分我希望有明確的進度，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：今天賦稅署也有代表過來，要不要請他回應一下？"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，我們的房屋稅關於持有稅的部分已經有改革，從今年開始，我們就會加重多屋族的囤房稅，其稅率會加重，但是如果房東把他的房子釋出來出租的話，他的房屋稅就可以降低。"],["牛委員煦庭：就比照自用住宅嘛！對不對？"],["倪副署長麗心：是，這個已經有改了，今年5月是第一次首年上路，我們會持續觀望實施的成效如何。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得剛剛內政部講現在空的房子是10%左右，在這樣的制度上路之後，有沒有KPI？會下降到多少百分比？你們有沒有討論過這事？"],["倪副署長麗心：我們會持續……報稅因為今年5月才第一次首年上路。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，這個題目我們先打開放著，但是我希望賦稅署做一下思考，如果房東的減稅誘因不夠，你要有大赦條款都可以討論，但是關鍵是要讓他釋出來，我們唯一的指標就是不希望房子閒在那邊，然後租屋的租金水平因為供不應求，所以很高，因此我覺得除了社會住宅的討論之外，這一部分的討論我們也要開始進入深水區了，請各政府單位做好準備，可以嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委。","下一位請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5b5cd497dc4cd409c18c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a7fc8a76f1bb69cd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:09:18 - 11:15:10","影片長度":"00:05:52","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:09:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:15:10+08:00","duration":352,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.185968750000001,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.286593750000002,"end":11.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.244093750000001,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.716593750000001,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.05409375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.69096875,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.48346875,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.88409375,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.718468750000003,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.931593750000005,"end":49.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.829093750000006,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.72096875,"end":67.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.80096875000001,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.01534375,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.53409375000001,"end":76.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.54221875,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.32596875,"end":109.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.10659375,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.25659375,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.43784375,"end":170.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.41159375,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.68096875,"end":161.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.38909375,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.70096875000002,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.59909375,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.43409375000002,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.64846875,"end":179.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.93534375000002,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.89284375000003,"end":185.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.28096875,"end":182.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.77409375000002,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.14534375000002,"end":192.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.53659375,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.30846875,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.05409375000002,"end":204.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.23096875000002,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.91784375,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.47471875000002,"end":215.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.45721875,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.74346875,"end":221.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.59971875000002,"end":224.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.58659375000002,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.78909375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.80034375000002,"end":236.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.75346875000002,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.35159375,"end":243.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.17846875,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.21596875,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.84846875000002,"end":250.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.65846875000003,"end":250.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.24909375000001,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.97034375,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.28659375,"end":257.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.56034375,"end":259.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.36159375,"end":262.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.69034375,"end":274.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.77284375,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.92471875,"end":275.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.86971875,"end":276.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.98346875000004,"end":280.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.66221875,"end":282.1978437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主席 我們一位同仁 請郭突署 吳市長吳市長有請吳市長好 針對今天的機制品質的改善與政策的討論我們都知道 我們過去有很多大樓 現有的大樓充電樁的問題"},{"start":28.752,"end":51.154,"text":"那其實我們也知道說在2019年我們的修法通過我們後來蓋的大家充電樁都沒問題但是之前的這些大樓還是存在的問題因為存在的問題那住戶至於要做但是沒經過管委會同意法院的判決判決住戶的敗訴"},{"start":52.236,"end":61.411,"text":"那未來咧,我們抓新舊的大樓我們要怎樣來協助我們的舊油的我們的大樓的管委會"},{"start":62.468,"end":89.804,"text":"這邊我們要怎樣內政部要怎樣做規劃親愛的署長來來來重視這問題在這個充電樁的安裝的這個部分其實關鍵是你把車子引到地下室可能引發的這個公共安全疑慮的問題尤其是他的這個鋰電池火災是目前證實是無法直接撲滅他只能透過大量灌水降溫那或是利用這個防火毯"},{"start":91.105,"end":119.367,"text":"避免毒煙的擴散所以我們把這些包含充電樁的安裝程序還有第一時間的防火還有降溫的措施都請消防署訂定在它相關的指引當然地方政府有些也已經做了一些指引我想這個指引可以讓公益大廈管理委員會是比較放心的也有一定的方向可以遵循"},{"start":119.907,"end":148.827,"text":"那這個部分消防署應該在最近就會把它做一個比較完整的訂定那我想這個部分部裡面統整如果確認以後應該會提供給各縣市政府還有我們也會到時候會邀公益大廈管委會來一起做一些討論那希望他們遵循這樣的指引然後逐步的把這些安全措施做好那這樣的話才有機會讓他下去的時候所有的住戶是比較安心的"},{"start":149.572,"end":166.787,"text":"市長是針對我們地下室停車場但是大樓有開放空間是不是未來朝開放空間我們也不要限制在地下室在開放空間我們也可以來設置我們的臨時的充電座其實我們也是希望說先用開放空間讓住戶心理上比較"},{"start":174.474,"end":192.623,"text":"能夠接受這個東西,那他逐步再引下去,你安全措施做好了,那再讓他下去。好,再來我就跟你討論那個社會住宅,因為我們社會住宅,目前在我們都會區裡面,大家注意社會住宅期望值都很高,"},{"start":195.356,"end":210.063,"text":"非常的高,所以說在我們都會區裡面,社會住宅我們在推動的腳步還不過快因為我們有很多是我們的國有財產是我們公家的土地,公家的土地我們要取得會比較方便"},{"start":211.607,"end":236.273,"text":"取得方便,我們未來興建的速度才會快那所以說,在未來,我們會在我們都會區裡面是不是有整套我們怎樣來取得土地,這最重要嘛你再整個發包程序,那都是趙正堂程序,那也很快因為我們很多我們也不要講弱勢啦,就是沒有房子的人"},{"start":236.994,"end":265.542,"text":"他們都很期待我們的社會住宅那社會住宅呢你還要制定的就是什麼來你今天今天你抽到的時候你就不能隨意的來來轉租或是存在的問題就是地下室的停車問題那一定要把它制定比較嚴格要是被查到的話第一就沒收然後你罰款"},{"start":266.524,"end":291.654,"text":"絕對一定要把它制定因為你沒有制定比較重的罰款變成他們的車位現在車位都是魚味籃球大家都知道這樣才可以落實說真正需要的人他們來抽到他們可以改觀引起爭議這就是我們政府要的這部份我們在我們訂的部分都已經有明確的"},{"start":292.916,"end":316.372,"text":"原則上中央蓋的大部分不會再有就是說還有空位再去額外驅逐出去啦當然有一些看地方的特殊需求那或者是說我們的車但是我想委員所建議的非常好就是它管理一定要非常嚴格啦不能讓它有所謂的轉租的行為我想不管是車載本身或是停車位我想這部分我們會嚴格來要求"},{"start":317.028,"end":326.48,"text":"因為過去的曾經發生就是我們的合宇住宅板橋的合宇住宅合宇住宅當初就是一些"},{"start":327.622,"end":349.216,"text":"不肖的商人 找了很多人頭去抽 抽到了之後然後他想辦法 哎喲破產啦什麼然後在金華院認定判決 就用法拍的名義 對就用法拍的名義把他低價飆售出去 對所以這都是我們要賀字的方向 好不好對 好 這部分我們會努力好 謝謝署長 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時9分）主席、與會同仁。請國土署吳署長。"],["主席：有請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：吳署長好。針對今天居住品質的改善與政策的討論，過去有很多現有的大樓都發生過充電樁的問題，我們也知道2019年修法通過，所以後來蓋的充電樁都沒問題，但之前這些大樓的問題還是存在，存在的問題是怎麼樣呢？住戶自己要做，但是沒經過管委會同意，法院判決住戶敗訴，未來我們要怎樣來協助舊大樓的管委會？內政部要怎樣規劃？請署長來重視這個問題。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。因為充電樁安裝的關鍵是，你把車子引到地下室可能引發公共安全疑慮的問題，尤其是鋰電池火災，目前證實無法直接撲滅，只能透過大量灌水降溫，或者是利用防火毯避免毒煙擴散，所以包含充電樁的安裝程序，還有第一時間的滅火、防火及降溫措施，都請消防署訂定在相關指引，當然有些地方政府也已經做了一些指引。我想這個指引可以讓公寓大廈管委會比較放心，也有一定的方向可以遵循。消防署應該在最近就會把這個部分做比較完整的訂定，如果部裡統整、確認以後，應該會提供給各縣市政府，到時候我們也會邀公寓大廈管委會一起做一些討論，希望他們遵循這樣的指引，逐步把這些安全措施做好，這樣才有機會當做下去的時候，讓所有住戶比較安心。"],["吳委員琪銘：剛剛是針對地下室停車場，但是大樓有開放空間，是不是未來可以朝開放空間？我們不要限制在地下室，而是在開放空間也可以設置臨時充電樁，這樣才可以解決舊有大樓住戶權益的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：其實我們也希望先用開放空間，讓住戶心理上比較能夠接受這個東西，逐步再引下去，也就是安全措施做好了，再讓它下去。"],["吳委員琪銘：再來，我就和你討論社會住宅，目前在都會區裡面，大家對於社會住宅的期望值都很高，雖然非常的高，但在都會區裡面，社會住宅推動的腳步還不夠快。因為有很多基地是國有財產署、公家的土地，要取得比較方便，未來興建的速度才會快，所以未來在都會區裡面是不是有整套……怎樣來取得土地是最重要的，整個發包程序都是照正常程序也很快。我們也不要講弱勢，很多沒有房子的人都很期待社會住宅，社會住宅還要制定的是，當抽到的時候就不能隨意轉租，存在的就是地下室的停車問題，你們一定要把它制定得比較嚴格，要是被查到的話，第一、就沒收，然後一定要制定罰款，如果沒有制定比較重的罰款，變成他們的車位……大家都知道現在車位都是一位難求，這樣才能夠落實，讓真正需要的人抽到，可以解決居住正義的問題，這就是政府要的。"],["吳署長欣修：是，這部分在我們訂的部分都已經有明確的……原則上，中央蓋的大部分不會還有空位再額外租出去，當然有一些是看地方的特殊需求，或者是我們的……但是委員所建議的非常好，就是管理一定要非常嚴格，不能有所謂轉租的行為。不管是社宅本身或是停車位，這部分我們會嚴格來要求。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為過去板橋合宜住宅曾經發生過，當初就是一些不肖的商人找了很多人頭去抽……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["吳委員琪銘：抽到了之後，他就想辦法透過破產等等手段，再經法院認定判決……"],["吳署長欣修：就用法拍的名義。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["吳署長欣修：就用法拍的名義把它低價標售出去。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以這都是我們要嚇阻的方向，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好，這部分我們會努力。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝署長。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘代）：現在請下一位牛煦庭召委，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e50d32d9fb63dd6dce18c34ac1b6c98163840241ee498f319a94bd1da7f89406e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:00:01 - 11:09:09","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T11:00:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T11:09:09+08:00","duration":548,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.64221875,"end":4.418468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.75159375,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.57346875,"end":16.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.66971875,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.56784375,"end":23.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.28034375,"end":24.887843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.17471875,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.68909375,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.39721875,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.774718750000005,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.76159375,"end":51.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.259093750000005,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.97596875,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.20721875,"end":66.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.09221875,"end":69.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.64409375000001,"end":74.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.44971875,"end":76.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.93034375,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.39346875000001,"end":84.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.57471875,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.41221875000001,"end":100.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.96034375,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.27221875000001,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.70596875000001,"end":111.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.14846875,"end":112.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.75596875000001,"end":116.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.31659375000001,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.54784375000001,"end":122.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.48846875000001,"end":128.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.09096875,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.45784375,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.02159375000002,"end":141.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.73034375,"end":144.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.27409375000002,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.89221875,"end":161.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.45721875,"end":163.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.90409375000002,"end":165.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.26659375,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.45596875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.50221875,"end":173.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.87721875,"end":176.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.64034375,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.27659375000002,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.68096875,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.26284375,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.78534375,"end":205.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.51346875000002,"end":208.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.74096875,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.44534375,"end":212.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.35221875000002,"end":215.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.92971875,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.55221875,"end":245.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.52846875,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.12159375,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.54909375,"end":277.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.43909375000004,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.60346875,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.13221875,"end":317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一些這我同意啦這確實需要一些時間做一些交流跟這些資料的收集最後針對國土署已經在整體開發地區的社宅取得方案已經報行政院了嗎那如果已經報行政院了那我希望"},{"start":472.008,"end":487.17,"text":"可以具體的來執行針對區域計畫或者是公辦都更裡面到底多少比例必須要來興建設宅因為非常遺憾的台中市的狀況現在國土署要也要不到那所以說希望未來在這些相關審議的過程裡面"},{"start":488.41,"end":506.681,"text":"那國土署就提供更具體的這些方案那現在報行政院的部分可以趕快具體的來實施是這個部分我們其實抱怨的部分就會涵蓋都市計畫審議中的還有現在它的在重劃區或區政區已經取得的我們這一個部分是已經取得的可以嗎"},{"start":507.762,"end":535.701,"text":"在行政措施上就是可以但是如果今天立法的話那一塊反而會拿不到這很重要喔如果立法反而會拿不到那我們透過行政措施直接跟地方政府協商我們可以取得現階段縣市政府手中已經握有的四地重劃區案徵收區的土地就可以進行協商來取得我覺得這個對台中現在真的標高的房價一定有一定有很正面的注意啦那葡萄樹也有一些具體的這個行政措施"},{"start":536.201,"end":544.685,"text":"可以在縣市政府他對於涉災不積極的情況下中央政府也可以來做是 這個我們會朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝李博議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":528,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時）請署長。"],["主席：有請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：今天很多委員的提案都是針對住宅法，住宅法其實包含哪些人有資格住、他可以住多久以及弱勢的比例我們希望把它放到哪一個程度，另外，我們要怎麼獎勵年輕人，包含年輕人住在社宅裡面，他目前有兩個小孩，他會有比較優先的資格之外，有沒有要再放寬？這些都是今天很多委員所提的一些法律提案。社宅從2016年開始倡議到2022年，其實我們就做過一次住宅法的修法，但到2025年，也就是今年，其實第一批的社宅，比如說林口或有一些地方的社宅就滿六年了，滿六年會遇到到底政府的政策是要輪動，還是說政府的政策，針對這些目前所提出來，包含弱勢，包含很多種原因的人，他有沒有多住幾年的空間？這都是接下來要討論的。","而且從2025（今）年開始，包含我的選區裡的崇實安居，包含高雄市有非常非常多的社宅，因為高雄現在在招台積電進來，在台積電周邊，光是左營、楠梓周邊2公里到3公里的社宅就有六千多戶已經決標、動土，包含崇實、清豐、永清、海富、海景、福山，還有機20，有非常非常多的社宅都在如火如荼的進行，但這些社宅目前還沒有成形。高雄市政府跟國土署及住都中心也都很積極的在找可能可以興建社宅的土地，但可能可以興建社宅的土地如果遇到被重度標籤，對未來這些社宅的土地取得還是會有一點影響，這些都是政府必須要面面俱到去關心的。","另外，今天還有一些針對租金補貼，針對房東、房客，當然政府一定希望這些租金是逐步透明而且平穩，而房東希望什麼？房東就是希望他可以不用繳，最好免稅額度可以提高，這也是在今天很多修法的內容裡面。但是我們要保障房客的是什麼？我們要保障房客，也希望房東不要因為這種不愉快，房子就不租給房客，讓房客有不安全感。另外，我們也希望透過租金補貼的方式來取得租金逐步的透明化，讓租屋市場平穩，這些都是在修法內容裡面。我們當然都支持弱勢，我們當然都希望保障房客，我們也希望鼓勵房東把這些房子拿出來做公益出租，但是怎麼樣取得一個平衡？這都是接下來我覺得要跟署長做一些很精細討論的部分。","如果下午沒有進入討論的話，希望國土署針對我剛剛講的這幾個點，包含可能未來從今年開始，明年、後年（即2025年、2026年、2027年）都會有完工的戶數，有完工的戶數之後，所有遇到的問題的統計，還有最重要的，很多縣市政府現在也在興建，我那天安排包含內政部董次長跟署長一起來高雄市的崇實安居，其實高雄市的都發局就跟你們講很多，因為他們已經遇到很多包租代管以及相關的費用問題，所以很希望可以傳授一些眉角給你們，也希望透過接下來如果國土署可以跟所有縣市政府交談、交流的話，可以對我們每一年度即將大量完成的社會住宅有很正面的幫助。","在這邊先請教吳署長，針對所有縣市政府目前已經興建好的社宅，可能有些已經要面臨第一次的六年要滿了，或是比如說高雄市有幾個社宅已經搬進去一年、兩年的，你是不是可以就他們所遇到的相關問題做一些交流跟請教？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，的確我們在每年每一季的檢討會，還有跟各縣市政府、跟六都有一個社宅管理的聯合大平臺，其實陸陸續續都有收到很多意見，尤其從去年下半年到今年上半年，剛好很多都輪完第一輪，大家都累積了非常多的經驗，有不錯的，也有很痛苦的，這些其實都有回饋給我們，讓我們後續的社宅得以參考。接下來這幾年中央完工的社宅會大量的釋出，像今年大概就有4,000戶左右，到明年更會有大概7,000戶左右，當然每一年都會維持一定的數量開始釋出，所以相對的，在管理經驗上就更需要，因為它遍布到全國，我們必須要更了解有些在地性的問題，這是一個。","第二個，我們在新建社宅的過程當中，也很擔心被標籤化，這也是為什麼我們今天在弱勢的部分會特別注意這個問題，因為很多年輕人也會擔憂，當弱勢的比例值提高時，會不會相對的他的中籤率就大幅降低？所以這一點也是我們在這個過程當中會很審慎的，我們希望透過更多的行政措施來解決這個問題，而不是一定要透過修法，透過行政措施能夠達到平衡的狀態下，可能會做得更清楚。","第三個，當然在這個過程當中，在一般民間的租賃合約不公平的部分，其實我們這幾年不管是包租代管也好，或是租金補貼也好，都產生很多這一類的問題，這一些我們也都有跟地政司合作，現在先行的部分是透過定型化契約的修正，把一些房客比較受到不公平對待的部分，譬如說，任意漲租或是電費收費標準不合理的問題，統統在裡面明確的定義。我們會在這幾個月蒐集各縣市政府提出來的問題，我們會再檢討。"],["李委員柏毅：這我同意，這確實需要一些時間做交流跟資料的蒐集。最後，國土署提的整體開發地區社宅取得方案已經報行政院了嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員柏毅：如果已經報行政院了，我希望可以具體的執行。針對區域計畫或是公辦都更裡面，到底有多少比例必須要來興建社宅？因為非常遺憾的，臺中市的狀況，現在國土署想要也要不到，所以希望未來在這些相關審議的過程裡面，國土署可以提供更具體的方案，讓現在報行政院的部分可以趕快具體的實施。"],["吳署長欣修：是，其實報院的部分就會涵蓋都市計畫審議中的，還有現在在重劃區或區徵區已經取得的，我們這一個部分是雙向……"],["李委員柏毅：已經取得的可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：在行政措施上就是可以，但是如果今天立法的話，那一塊反而會拿不到。"],["李委員柏毅：這很重要喔！已經取得的……"],["吳署長欣修：如果立法的話，反而會拿不到，但我們透過行政措施直接跟地方政府協商，對於現階段縣市政府手中已經握有的市地重劃、區段徵收區的土地，我們就可以進行協商來取得。"],["李委員柏毅：我覺得這個對臺中現在真的飆高的房價一定有很正面的助益，國土署也有一些具體的行政措施，可以在縣市政府對社宅不積極的情況下，中央政府也可以來做。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們會朝這個方向來努力。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","下一位請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝各位 各位早安我先請教那個法務部跟司法院我看了一下你們今天針對陳廷輝委員所提的檢疫判決處刑制度的修正草案那你們不支持的原因主要是因為認為說司法資源的有限性那如果說限縮使用可能會造成司法的負擔是不是 請問法務部跟司法院是 委員可以說明嗎"},{"start":75.143,"end":93.378,"text":"沒關係你們的報告已經有了所以我想這個是主軸對不對就主要司法資源就是說原因是什麼為什麼我們認為說會影響到排擠到那個資源這個我當然知道整個制度的狀況我知道可不可以直接下判決不用通知當事人等等的"},{"start":94.139,"end":119.477,"text":"那我想說我是也蠻大程度的認同說目前司法的資源其實是有限不管是在司法院或者是法務部其實資源都是有限但是因為我最近看了一些狀況包括高院就是放了那個中文字的事情等等的其實在有限的司法資源之下其實我們"},{"start":122.221,"end":137.749,"text":"應該我們對於這個司法資源的使用應該是放在真正的重刑犯上面而不是輕罪 更不是無辜的人民所以我昨天我在質詢的時候有提到說其實我們認為的司法應該是"},{"start":138.929,"end":166.657,"text":"司法是要對付犯罪而不是拿來當作政治的工具更何況司法的資源是有限的所以在使用上面應該要更去思考怎麼樣對國家人民有利那我們今天審的法案都是刑事訴訟法的條文那這個法呢其實刑事訴訟法它最大的精神是在於說要發現真實還有執行一個正當的法律程序來保障受訓問者而不是說一昧的事實調查"},{"start":167.657,"end":187.066,"text":"不是說今天這個人有構成犯罪那我就動用所有國家的偵查力量去對付他譬如說有一個人侵占遺失物那我是不是要開始大量的搜索羈押詢問然後只為了發現他有沒有侵占遺失物的這個事實我想司法不是這樣用所以在刑事訴訟程序上面有犯罪就應該偵辦但是永遠"},{"start":189.867,"end":215.175,"text":"比喻原則是我們在衡量手段以及目的性的一個很重要考量尤其是在司法資源有限的情況下怎麼做其實才是一個真正重要所以除了不該一昧的就是你們就是拿說犯罪事實調查這個當作藉口之外其實你們要考量的是怎麼樣去保障正當法律的程序那這譬如說"},{"start":216.255,"end":232.8,"text":"比例原則有沒有去注意到公正公平的手段有沒有去注意到我想這個是我們每個司法人員因為司法人員國家訓練我們一個司法官訓練所出來的像兩位跟我國家是要花非常多錢才能把你訓練出來的我想花那麼多錢訓練出來的從業人員應該這是我們一定要"},{"start":236.661,"end":247.458,"text":"遵守的一個原則嘛 就是在訴訟上面偵查上面 審判上面有沒有符合比例原則以及公平公正合乎訴訟程序的手段我想兩位認不認同這個說法認同好 謝謝"},{"start":251.443,"end":266.456,"text":"所以昨天我在質詢的時候遇到一個狀況就是其實人民納稅給你去發薪水絕對不是讓你說6點半去老民而且我們6點半會去一定是搜索或執行G提才有可能"},{"start":267.176,"end":284.217,"text":"那六點半去送達傳票這個我還真的沒聽過我想請教次長次長那個你是我檢查實習的時候的老師所以我一直尊稱你是老師嘛那以前是因為你對我影響很大所以我一路以來我就是選擇一定要當檢察官不是當法官因為我覺得偵查犯罪"},{"start":285.441,"end":299.203,"text":"我很喜歡這個詐犯罪然後能夠給我們自己的成就感以及對國家的貢獻所以我想請教你我們什麼時候會在六點半去檢察官會指示司法警察去送達船票我想請教次長"},{"start":300.558,"end":320.049,"text":"好 那當然通常會在清晨這麼早通常是進行搜索 進行強制處分的作為的時候是 就剛講的那這個案子他送這個傳喚的方式的話 但他其實他就是說他基本上他不違法 但個案上妥不妥適昨天跟今天很多外界都有一些不同的意見嘛"},{"start":320.529,"end":336.137,"text":"我相信基隆地檢他已經聽到外界的一些聲音啦就是妥適性的部分當然可以再行檢討那基本上我們認為就是說這個案他法律合法性沒有問題但妥適性要不要檢討我們尊重一下那個我們尊重這個基隆地檢的決定"},{"start":337.538,"end":365.435,"text":"我覺得不當的事情就是要大聲說出來如果我今天我是一個執法人員或我是一個國家公園我說我這行為沒有違法我就可以任意對人民怎麼樣我不覺得這是應該的更何況我跟市長報告 你是我以前指導老師我在那邊講嘛 有誰會早上六點半派司法警察去某一個人家送船票我昨天還請教了調查局長以及法務部長我說請問一下是請他馬上帶著走還是只是通知他另外到庭時間"},{"start":366.736,"end":385.87,"text":"局長是說通知另外一道庭實決那我說那就一般有物送達就好了為什麼要警察早上六點半去好 就我們今天發現基隆有一個議員他是之前民進黨的立委候選人他直接講啊 他還公佈錄音耶這個部分是警察 警政署的部分警察到現場"},{"start":387.861,"end":405.656,"text":"一大早在現場 民眾要上班 還跟他說我要上班這個名字是我簽的結果警察不讓他走 一定要他做筆錄然後這個錄音是民進黨的立委候選人自己公布的那我就不知道說 這是怎麼回事"},{"start":407.057,"end":430.037,"text":"你基隆地檢的檢察官這麼偉大嗎可以叫調查官叫警察一大早人家上班前跑去那邊把人攔下不讓他上班就是要做筆錄更何況這些人是你偵查時候認定的被害人他是可能被委簽名字的被害人就你一大早跑去他家把他攔下來不讓他上班因為要做你的筆錄請問"},{"start":433.12,"end":454.759,"text":"請問次長請問警政署這是我們的正當法律程序嗎我請教你請你告訴我這是不是正當的法律程序跟我們報告就是說傳喚當然在正當法律程序上面如果說看對證人還是對被告的傳喚證人除非有急迫警情但原則上要在24小時內前送達被告當然沒有這個限制那關於這一個"},{"start":456.62,"end":475.615,"text":"傳喚它基本上它也是對於 訴訟法上對人身自由的一個自由權的一個干預它理論上都要符合相關的比例原則或相關的憲法上的原則來講是 謝謝鎮長 但這擺明了就是沒有慣例 沒有這樣的慣例對被害人的這種傳喚完全違反比例原則"},{"start":476.676,"end":488.739,"text":"你跟我說這個法律沒有說不行好 那法律沒有說不行那我下次是不是五點可以送四點可以送 凌晨三點也可以送專部長來跟我講說這是考量基隆人的特殊性那我就說"},{"start":490.516,"end":515.112,"text":"很多桃園人也到台北上班 那我是不是桃園就是凌晨五點去那我的助理每天從新竹到台北來上班 那是不是他四點如果要通知他是不是船票四點要送過去我說部長在鬼扯蛋 部長在亂講昨天早上記者問我說 部長就在亂講 胡說八道你今天幹到部長級的人 你還在國會的這邊胡扯"},{"start":516.209,"end":537.026,"text":"那我覺得這不應該啦 更何況因為昨天我在問的是調查官去現場問到底是送達通知書還是製作筆錄還是要帶走 那局長跟我說只是去送達改天要開庭的通知書但是我們今天看到警政署的這個部分是直接把它攔下來做筆錄"},{"start":538.187,"end":564.144,"text":"但是我不能確定大法官是不是請他是把他攔下來做筆錄 但是如果是的話那昨天局長跟部長在這裡就騙我了雖然大法官認為說政務官來這邊背詢說謊沒事但是我覺得這也不是我們認同跟支持的一件事情那我再講一個 因為剛剛的新聞說宜蘭的黨部也被收鎖那我跟各位報告一件事情"},{"start":565.41,"end":588.476,"text":"我們從基隆的案子來看基隆的案子基隆罷免林佩祥的領銜人他還在臉書感謝調查站可以讓他喬到下午再去接受詢問還謝謝調查官的什麼善意好那結果呢罷免綠營團體的搜索羈押"},{"start":593.322,"end":603.311,"text":"一大早去把你帶走那我們今天遇到的狀況是什麼你今天只要是罷免民進黨立法委員的"},{"start":605.036,"end":628.825,"text":"領銜人就是開始就把你搜索 羈押 大肆的給你查辦那罷免藍營的呢 他用力查辦的對象是誰竟然是連署人耶 竟然是被害人耶結果領銜人可以 哇 他說下午再問就下午再問還可以在臉書上面發言 感謝調查站的善意這是多麼荒謬啊"},{"start":629.912,"end":650.512,"text":"我想請教一下這是多麼的荒謬今天你遇到你司法在處理事情的時候竟然可以如此的區別對待我自己看到就是這樣啦今天只要是罷免綠營的支持者那你就是狂殺狂砍那今天罷免藍營的"},{"start":652.862,"end":668.507,"text":"人 那你就對於所謂的支持的被害人 你就狂殺狂砍我真的沒有辦法想像司法怎麼會到今天那我不想問部長 因為部長沒有跟我說 干涉個案就是個案不討論 我已經發現部長的SOP了 你只要問他"},{"start":673.588,"end":691.748,"text":"罷免跟藍營有關的 他就跟你講個案然後護航 我們的執法執行人員都沒問題早上去問被害人 是因為基隆人有這樣的特殊需求結果你問到他罷免綠營的人的事情的時候他就開始跟你 這個案我不討論喔 這支個案喔"},{"start":693.59,"end":721.565,"text":"他永遠都是雙標這樣對我那我也說我昨天氣到跟部長說我說我也是內行人不要在那邊跟我講外行話你司法今天有沒有雙標次長我不用你回答這句話次長你是我以前的老師你也是讓我決心要走檢察官這條路的人你真的覺得今天的司法走到今天這樣我們是不是其實回到家其實可能眼淚都要流出來了怎麼司法會配合政客玩到今天這個地步"},{"start":722.878,"end":746.03,"text":"调战调局也是 警政署也是这是我们当年从社稿官训练所出来的时候追求的司法嘛那我跟市长跟老师报告我在国民党执政的时候我办刘正宏刘正子我是办得多用力民进党执政的时候我办郑文燦他们我办得多用力因为这个都是我等于是在对抗当时的任何一个执政党"},{"start":747.431,"end":772.652,"text":"因為我心中司法就是公正的處理每個案子我每一次辦完都被關切 都有人對我不爽但我覺得那個就是一個司法人員的宿命我們就是要起來對抗強權結果我今天看到的完全不是這樣次長這個部分真的你就不用回答所以我認為犯罪該辦就辦這我絕對百分之百支持但是犯罪的時候不應該區別對待"},{"start":775.544,"end":788.022,"text":"在最近這個連署的這個案子裡面其實可能發生的就是違簽姓名的偽造文書啦這是犯罪 我一直說這個是犯罪但是我們希望的是能夠公平的對待所以剛剛吳孝文跟大家說"},{"start":789.431,"end":809.24,"text":"什麼什麼去集會什麼4.26去集會怎麼樣然後這個你們認為這個不是犯罪什麼等等之類其實我覺得這些人都是在誤導國人因為我們今天主張的是我剛剛所說的你在針對同樣的事情的時候你是採取不一樣的對待方式我是對於司法的不公執行方式的不公"},{"start":810.02,"end":825.912,"text":"我在抗議的是這個事絕對不是我說偽造文書沒有過程犯罪我從幾個月前我在立法院的國事論壇上面我就公開的說偽造文書不管哪一檔只要你偽簽偽造聯署書就是犯罪所以"},{"start":826.53,"end":852.425,"text":"不要在那邊胡扯這些事情還有我再提一個3月17號的時候中選會的副主委有說二階段連署的格式只能由選務機關發出來也就是說他所有的格式都不能夠有自己設計的如果有的話他自己說 他副主委自己說有違反公職人員選罷法還有刑法等等的相關責任而且他講得細到說"},{"start":854.977,"end":883.609,"text":"各個名冊格式這個標題文字字體名各欄次次序長寬的等等這個只要有問題那就是違法結果呢我們發現花蓮花蓮有4000份的格式有問題結果到現在呢有搜索嗎沒有啊有大量傳喚嗎沒有啊所以這到底是怎麼回事呢那我們在想這兩天聽到的說什麼新竹的"},{"start":884.349,"end":908.39,"text":"林志傑 前立委參選人 他叫大家來簽聯署 然後會請喝咖啡 吃蛋糕那這個我們一聽到 這個絕對是會選嘛但現在呢 也沒有沒有任何的動作 但是我們看到的你對於其他的地方像譬如說今天對宜蘭 就超級有效率然後趕快去搜索 然後把人現在全部都帶回去飼料處"},{"start":910.95,"end":939.014,"text":"然後在做這種事情所以這就是我心裡覺得我心裡覺得不公平啦我是替人民出來講話我對這國家這個司法對於人民是不公平的而且部長 昨天局長趕在這邊跟我講我們都是依法處理我跟你講 鬼才信啦我今天幹過20年警察官我很清楚這些長官在玩什麼東西只是這一次的長官玩的比以前嚴重更多"},{"start":940.749,"end":968.122,"text":"國民黨執政時代他們有沒有這樣碰大家心知肚明民進黨執政時代他們有沒有這樣碰大家也心知肚明但是我所看到的是這一屆玩得最誇張最離譜那各位都是國家真正很強的棟樑那我也不管大家我也不在乎大家政治思想是什麼但是是不是我們在執行司法執行公務的時候就心裡那一把尺我也有我自己的政治傾向但是在過往我不管在辦"},{"start":969.222,"end":996.963,"text":"國民黨的劉家或是在辦民進黨的次長我永遠心裡就那把尺就是司法怎麼樣我就怎麼辦我即使辦到後來部長對我都很不諒解我還是堅持辦因為這是司法人員的堅持嘛我辦劉家也被他們檢舉了好多年啦我也從來沒有說怨恨他們什麼就是我該怎麼做我記得次長你也曾經打過一通電話給我"},{"start":998.888,"end":1016.563,"text":"你在處理劉家那時候告我的案子那個時候應該您是在法務部處理這案子我那時候在桃檢 你有打電話跟我問一下整個內情狀況 我有跟你回覆所以我們是提著人頭在辦案 在對抗強權但是現在司法的長官們是怎麼在做的"},{"start":1022.162,"end":1049.195,"text":"好那我再請教一下次長次長花蓮的這個案子後來講說為什麼這四千份有問題卻沒有提告那當時的花蓮地檢說因為沒有人來告啊那我想請問一下次長沒有人檢舉的案子非告訴難用的案子地檢署就不用發動偵查嗎當然不是啊假如因為告訴告發自首或其他刑事自由犯罪嫌疑及應急開始偵辦"},{"start":1049.795,"end":1069.017,"text":"是 謝謝次長 謝謝老師那我想檢報分案也是檢方的日常那今天這麼嚴重了大家鬧轟轟成這樣而且非常多罷免團體也都被辦的情況下花蓮地檢署竟然可以說因為沒有民眾來告所以這四千份的事情我就沒有處理然後後來是侯漢廷跑去提出告發"},{"start":1069.878,"end":1085.277,"text":"那我的意思是說花蓮地檢的這個說法會不會太騙人民啦太侮辱人民的智商啊檢報分案是很多人民都知道的事情更何況司法人員就花蓮地檢署竟然可以說沒有啊沒有人來告啊所以我沒有辦啊"},{"start":1087.078,"end":1111.726,"text":"這個東西我也沒有辦法接受啦跟老師報告一下這個我沒有辦法接受因為我覺得這也是選擇性的不作為前面是選擇性的作為這邊是選擇性的不作為我覺得國家如果要愚民就不要讓我念書你讓我念書了大家念到博士了我們念到博士了然後你再來給我騙一堆弱智的人才會被騙的事情那這樣的國家"},{"start":1113.188,"end":1142.101,"text":"不知道在搞什麼不然你就讓我們全國人民都不要念書全部小學三年級畢業就好如果不是這樣的話請不要把大家當笨蛋看就算刪除預算一樣他叫大家不要送解凍案來他忘記了我們有好多同學跟親戚都在中央機關上班啊他們都會私下跟我說上面交代解凍案都不要送要讓人民對你們不爽對啊所以我就說這就是現在就是現在的政府我不知道現在政府到底是"},{"start":1143.476,"end":1155.819,"text":"福國利民 心存善念的在對待人民就是在搞他的政治鬥爭所以我最近對於司法的問題越來越生氣就是現在司法真的完全不是我以前想像的"},{"start":1157.244,"end":1178.921,"text":"那次長我再請教一下就是筆跡有沒有重複啊到底目前大家的判斷標準是什麼為什麼大家看一看就可以來搜索請教次長當然現在才在搜索階段他要求的這個證據能力的程度不會像到法院嘛那到法院通常透過鑑定的證據方法去確認這是否有偽造"},{"start":1179.301,"end":1203.103,"text":"因為在偵查中他申請相關的搜索票也好他並沒有要求要政治能力就證據能力所以也許檢察官他就基於勘驗勘驗也是一個調查方法勘驗之後認為他有可能有這個偽造肢體他也許就提這個證據向法院申請好謝謝長那這講說這都我們很熟悉的嘛就但是我也要跟就是說跟在場的各位報告一件事情不管在高雄韓國瑜的"},{"start":1203.963,"end":1224.748,"text":"聯署案的案子 或者是在北檢當時辦的郭台銘聯署案的案子其實檢察官到最後都認定說罷免團體領先人他們是被動的收這些聯署書他也沒有審核的能力 他也沒有互譯證系統可以比對真假依照現有的制度"},{"start":1228.569,"end":1247.206,"text":"確實現有的制度 北檢也說了啊依照現行法制之下 被聯署的人確實沒有無權要求民眾出具證件核實才能參加聯署那既然有這麼大漏洞 當時國民黨要提案說罷免要附身分證一本 民進黨又狂黨還在那邊騙說人民說國民黨沒收罷免權"},{"start":1248.627,"end":1271.63,"text":"其實我們希望能夠有一個嚴謹的連署結果民進黨不肯他設了一個局讓大家跳進去就現在連署了啊那他就開始說有一些事可能是有問題就像基隆一樣嘛跑到人家家裡問你說六點半問你說這是不是你連署就那個人說對啊這我簽的啊那今天你司法機關竟然可以拿了這個東西覺得兩個人的筆跡很像就可以把它當作一件刑事案件在偵辦"},{"start":1272.771,"end":1299.094,"text":"那不是就等於坐實了你原來民進黨不想要附身分證影本就是想要讓國民黨簽一簽之後反正司法都在你手上啦隨便你怎麼玩嘛他就直接拿聯署到你家去問然後說這是不是你簽的然後開始擾民開始玩這些如果今天可以要附身分證影本的話今天這個狀況大概發生的機率是非常低所以我覺得一整套套路下來民進黨就是用不停的制度以及什麼就是要玩弄國人"},{"start":1299.835,"end":1328.727,"text":"不然我們都附身分證影本大家都玩真的就好了為什麼你擋到底他顯然就設一個局讓你跳可以讓他控制的司法人員可以隨便拿兩張說這個筆記好像很像那我就開始去調查就變成這樣子就有司法人員陪著調查所以我想講檢察官是看證據辦案不是看政治辦案千萬不要變成今天是看政治辦案這真的是不可取"},{"start":1330.188,"end":1351.227,"text":"所以我過去20年在檢方的時候我辦了很多執政黨的人當然把我們自己搞得全身都是傷那我以前覺得受那個傷我對得起國人所以我願意這樣做那你們今天變成今天這樣讓我想說那我以前好像是笨蛋欸為什麼我會這樣逼自己要一切"},{"start":1352.335,"end":1378.252,"text":"要依法處理 要愛這個國家 要為這個國家做事我現在看到的都完全不一樣所以 霸藍的直接處理你霸團 霸綠的早上直接去處理那個敢聯署的人然後對於霸藍團體的領先人還可以跟他 移到下午再開庭讓人家來臉書感謝 這就是我看到現在的司法"},{"start":1379.96,"end":1393.368,"text":"好吧那個我覺得我還是說啦犯罪就該偵辦但是我不會去批評檢方啟動犯罪調查這件事所以我一直以來我都沒有說你們處理霸安團體是不對但是"},{"start":1394.605,"end":1411.191,"text":"我的要求只是請公平的對待請注意手段目的的比例原則否則在一個完全不符合比例原則這個之下我沒有辦法接受那請重視一下正當的法律程序你們目前的作為其實讓我沒有辦法溝通這些事情"},{"start":1416.82,"end":1436.719,"text":"好 那 而且我各位還要想到一件事情你們現在搜索羈押了這些人 萬一以後判無罪呢判無罪之後願意賠償 然後你也是拿全民的錢去賠給他你今天搞了這些人 達到你的政治目的結果你到最後判無罪了 你也是拿人民的錢去賠給他"},{"start":1438.789,"end":1463.946,"text":"民進黨沒事啊 沒受傷啊 我得到好多的政治紅利啊反正賠的是國家的預算啊 也不關他的事那這是我現在看到 而且我預測將來可能會面對到可能會面對到很多這種東西啦我相信會有很多人會被判無罪因為你怎麼去說 他有辨識違簽的這個能力那個檢調機關 真的不要變成司法鬥爭的工具"},{"start":1464.927,"end":1493.501,"text":"好我剛剛那個最後我想說齁我提一個東西啦齁那個因為跟今天的法案是有一點關係的齁那個呃在這個PowerPoint上面我希望說你們兩週內能夠提一個報告齁對於這個車禍過失傷害的告訴難論之罪齁也要加強這個刑事負債民事的這個權益的告知因為有一些人喔他不知道就整個走完之後過了過了損害賠償的那個那個請求權失效喔因為實務上"},{"start":1494.181,"end":1504.952,"text":"有很多人來跟我報怨 陳情這個事但我跟他說這是因為法律的規定但是行政機關 司法機關確實是可以幫忙去做這個啦最後30秒給我剛剛吳思堯講到那個禁制區的問題就是極有法禁制區廢除"},{"start":1514.537,"end":1542.331,"text":"我沒有 我對要不要廢除我沒有意見但是提廢除的是民進黨當年提的所以吳志曉可能要回去先跟黨問一下當初是民進黨提說要廢這個禁制區不是國民黨結果他今天執政了 他又覺得禁制區要存在這就是他的雙標不管在財化法等等 國會改革 民進黨永遠在雙標好 然後呢還有就是他剛剛說立法委員不能變為法委員然後說帶隊到那個台北地檢署前面去集會當然那個集會"},{"start":1543.852,"end":1563.434,"text":"法律上面當然可以給予評價 但是我在這邊要跟各位再報告一件事那去年12月呢 青鳥要衝進立法院 然後在那邊剪斷鐵絲網然後在那邊妨害公務 毀損跟妨害公務呢那這兩個也是犯罪啊 為什麼沒有見到你說立法委員什麼時候立法委員是違法委員呢 好"},{"start":1564.675,"end":1591.912,"text":"劉四芳明明沒有指揮警察辦案的權利結果他可以叫警察說要移送誰移送誰然後大家問他之後 他就說違法就要辦啊那如果劉四芳違法就要辦 那劉四芳要不要辦 辦 鍾佳斌因為鍾佳斌在那邊撿鐵絲網啊 那是毀損啊那要不要在那邊辦案那幾個 王定宇那幾個在那邊叫 衝進立法院趕快衝進來那個是妨礙公務啊 那劉四芳要不要叫指揮警察辦案呢"},{"start":1593.519,"end":1616.592,"text":"所以我就覺得就是永遠雙標啦自己也沒有指揮的權利也在那邊說要指揮警察丟臉丟死了 連這最基本自己能做什麼都搞不清楚然後立法委員在那邊敲壞立法院的桌子 拔斷麥克風打破玻璃 晚上跑進立法院都沒事 都不是犯罪 然後到"},{"start":1618.325,"end":1626.322,"text":"到北檢前面集會 要違反極右法天大的罪好像要殺頭一樣結果你在這邊幹了一堆蠢事丟臉丟到國外 摸女生屁股"},{"start":1627.641,"end":1653.913,"text":"摸女性立法委員屁股就還上很多國家的報紙頭版沒事這就是我們現在看到的所以剛剛那個吳教委員說他是今天來這邊給大家上法律教育課我覺得他應該自己要去上一下法律教育他自己搞不太清楚法律他自己才應該去先上法律教育課懂一下什麼是正常的法律好 不好意思謝謝各位 那麻煩兩週內能夠把這個報告給我們 可以嗎可以好 謝謝 謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時14分）謝謝，我們請法務部、司法院、調查局，還有警政署。"],["主席：有請各單位。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝各位，各位早安。我先請教法務部和司法院，我看了你們今天針對陳亭妃委員所提的簡易判決處刑制度修正草案的意見，你們不支持的原因主要是認為司法資源有限性，如果限縮使用可能會造成司法負擔，是不是，請問法務部和司法院？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。委員，可以說明嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，你們的報告裡面已經有了，所以這個是主軸，主要是司法資源，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：關於原因是什麼，為什麼我們認為會影響到、排擠掉資源？"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，這個我當然知道，我知道整個制度的狀況，可不可以直接下判決不用通知當事人等等，我也滿大程度認同目前司法資源其實是有限的，不管是在司法院或者是法務部，其實資源都是有限的。但是因為我最近看到了一些狀況，包括高院放了鍾文智的事情等等，在有限的司法資源之下，我們對於司法資源的使用應該要放在真正的重刑犯上面，而不是輕罪，更不是無辜的人民。所以昨天我在質詢的時候有提到，我們認為的司法應該是要對付犯罪，而不是拿來當作政治的工具，更何況司法資源是有限的，所以在使用上面應該要更去思考怎麼樣對國家、人民有利。","我們今天審查的法案都是刑事訴訟法的條文，刑事訴訟法最大的精神在於要發現真實，還有執行正當的法律程序來保障受訊問者，而不是一昧的事實調查，不是今天這個人有構成犯罪，我就動用所有國家的偵查力量去對付他，譬如有一個人侵占遺失物，我是不是要開始大量的搜索、羈押、訊問，只為了發現他有沒有侵占遺失物的這個事實？我想司法不是這樣用的。所以在刑事訴訟程序上面，有犯罪就應該偵辦，但比例原則是我們在衡量手段以及目的性的一個很重要考量，尤其是在司法資源有限的情況下，怎麼做才是真正重要的。除了不該一昧地拿犯罪事實調查當作藉口之外，其實你們要考量的是怎麼樣去保障正當法律程序，譬如比例原則有沒有去注意到，公正公平的手段有沒有去注意到，我想這是我們每個司法人員要做的。因為國家訓練一個司法官，從司法官訓練所出來的，像兩位跟我，國家是要花非常多錢才能把你訓練出來，花那麼多錢訓練出來的從業人員，這應該是我們一定要遵守的一個原則，在訴訟上面、偵查上面、審判上面有沒有符合比例原則以及公平公正、合乎訴訟程序的手段，請問兩位認不認同我這個說法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：認同。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。昨天我在質詢的時候遇到一個狀況，其實人民納稅給你去發薪水絕對不是讓你六點半去擾民，而且我們六點半會去一定是搜索或執行拘提才有可能，六點半去送達傳票我還真的沒聽過。我想請教次長，你是我檢察實習時的老師，所以我一直尊稱你是老師，也因為以前你對我的影響很大，所以我一路以來就是選擇一定要當檢察官，不是當法官，因為我很喜歡偵查犯罪給我自己的成就感，以及對國家的貢獻。所以我想請教次長，檢察官什麼時候會在六點半指示司法警察去送達傳票？"],["黃次長謀信：會在清晨這麼早通常是進行搜索或進行強制處分作為的時候……"],["吳委員宗憲：就是我剛剛講的。"],["黃次長謀信：就這個案子的傳喚方式，其實基本上他不違法，但是個案上妥不妥適，昨天跟今天外界都有一些不同的意見，我相信基隆地檢已經聽到外界的一些聲音，就妥適性的部分當然可以再行檢討，基本上，我們認為這個個案的合法性沒有問題，但妥適性要不要檢討，我們尊重基隆地檢的決定。"],["吳委員宗憲：我覺得不當的事情就是要大聲說出來，如果我今天是一個執法人員或是國家公務員，我說我這個行為沒有違法，就可以任意對人民怎麼樣，我不覺得這是應該的。更何況我跟次長報告，你是我以前的指導老師，有誰會早上六點半派司法警察去某一個人的家裡送傳票？我昨天還請教了調查局長以及法務部長，我問是請他馬上帶著走，還是只是通知他另外到庭時間，局長說通知另外到庭時間，我認為這用一般郵務送達就好了，為什麼要警察早上六點半去呢？","結果我們今天發現基隆有一個議員是之前民進黨的立委候選人，他直接講了，還公布錄音，這個部分是警政署的部分，警察一大早到現場的時候，民眾要上班，民眾還跟他說「我要上班，這個名字是我簽的」，結果警察不讓他走，一定要他做筆錄，這個錄音是民進黨上次的立委候選人自己公布的，我不知道這是怎麼回事？基隆地檢的檢察官這麼偉大嗎？可以叫調查官、警察一大早在人家上班前跑去那邊把人攔下，不讓他上班，就是要做筆錄？更何況這些人是你偵查之後認定的被害人，他可能是被偽簽名字的被害人，結果你一大早跑去他家把他攔下來，不讓他上班，就因為要做你的筆錄。請問次長、請問警政署，這是我們的正當法律程序嗎？我請教你，請你告訴我這是不是正當的法律程序？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，傳喚在正當法律程序上面，看是對證人還是對被告的傳喚，證人除非有急迫情形，原則上要在24小時前先送達，被告當然就沒有這個限制。關於傳喚基本上也是司法上對於人身自由的自由權干預，理論上都要符合相關的比例原則或相關憲法上的原則。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝次長。但這擺明了就是沒有這樣的慣例，這種對被害人的傳喚完全違反比例原則，你跟我說法律沒有說不行，那我下次是不是五點可以送？四點可以送？凌晨三點也可以送？昨天部長還跟我講這是考量基隆人的特殊性，很多桃園人也到臺北上班，是不是桃園就是凌晨五點去？我的助理每天從新竹到臺北來上班，如果要通知他，傳票是不是四點要送過去？我說部長在鬼扯淡、部長在亂講！今天早上記者問我的時候，我就說部長在亂講、胡說八道，你今天幹到部長級的人，你還在國會胡扯，我覺得這不應該。更何況，因為昨天我問的是調查官去現場到底是送達通知書，還是製作筆錄，還是要帶走，局長跟我說只是去送達改天要開庭的通知書，但是我們今天看到警政署的部分是直接把他攔下來做筆錄，但是我不能確定調查官是不是把他攔下來做筆錄，但如果是的話，昨天局長跟部長在這裡就是騙我了。雖然大法官認為政務官來這邊備詢說謊沒事，但是我覺得這也不是我們認同和支持的一件事情。","我再講一個，因為剛剛的新聞說宜蘭的黨部也被搜索，我跟各位報告一件事情，我們從基隆的案子來看，基隆罷免林沛祥的領銜人還在臉書感謝調查站可以讓他「喬」到下午再去接受訊問，還謝謝調查官的「善意」，結果罷免綠營團體的搜索、羈押是一大早去把你帶走。我們今天遇到的狀況是什麼？今天只要是罷免民進黨立法委員的領銜人，就是開始把你搜索、羈押，大肆的查辦；而罷免藍營的呢？它用力查辦的對象是誰？竟然是連署人耶！竟然是被害人耶！結果領銜人可以說下午再問，他就下午再問，還可以在臉書上面發言感謝調查站的善意，這是多麼荒謬啊！我想請教一下，這是多麼的荒謬！今天司法在處理事情的時候竟然可以如此的區別對待，我自己看到就是這樣啦，今天只要是罷免綠營的支持者，你就是狂殺狂砍；今天是罷免藍營的人，你就對所謂支持的被害人狂殺狂砍，我真的沒有辦法想像司法怎麼會走到今天？","我不想問部長，因為部長每次都跟我說這是個案不討論，我已經發現部長的SOP了，你只要問他罷免跟藍營有關的，他就跟你講個案，然後護航說我們的司法執行人員都沒問題，早上去問被害人，是因為基隆人有這樣的特殊需求，結果遇到要問罷免綠營人的事情時，他就開始跟你說我不討論喔，這是個案，他永遠都是雙標這樣對我。我昨天氣到跟部長說我也是內行人，不要在那邊跟我講外行話，司法今天有沒有雙標？次長，我不用你回答這句話，次長，你是我以前的老師，你也是讓我決心要走檢察官這條路的人，你真的覺得司法走到今天這樣，我們是不是回到家其實可能眼淚都要流出來了？怎麼司法會配合政客玩到今天這個地步？調查站、調查局也是、警政署也是，這是我們當年從司法官訓練所出來之後追求的司法嗎？","我跟次長跟老師報告，我在國民黨執政的時候，我辦劉政鴻、劉政池辦得多用力；民進黨執政的時候，我辦鄭文燦他們辦得多用力，這個都是等於我在對抗當時任何一個執政黨，因為在我心中，司法就是公正的處理每個案子。我每一次辦完都被關切，都有人對我不爽，但我覺得那個就是一個司法人員的宿命，我們就是要起來對抗強權，結果我今天看到的完全不是這樣。次長，這個部分真的你就不用回答。所以我認為犯罪該辦就辦，這我絕對百分之百支持，但是辦犯罪的時候不應該區別對待。","在最近這個連署的這個案子裡面，其實可能發生的就是偽簽姓名的偽造文書啦，這是犯罪，我一直說這個是犯罪，但是我們希望的是能夠公平的對待。剛剛吳思瑤委員跟大家說426去集會怎麼樣的，然後你們認為這個不是犯罪等等之類的……其實，我覺得這些人都是在誤導國人，因為我們今天主張的是我剛剛所說的，針對同樣的事情的時候，你是採取不一樣的對待方式，我是對於司法的不公、執行方式的不公，我在抗議的是這個事，我絕對不是說偽造文書沒有構成犯罪。從幾個月前，我在立法院的國是論壇上面，就公開的說偽造文書不管哪一黨，只要你偽簽、偽造連署書就是犯罪，所以不要在那邊胡扯這些事情。","還有，我再提一個，3月17號中選會的副主委有說，二階段連署的格式只能由選務機關發出來，也就是所有的格式都不能夠有自己設計的，如果有的話，副主委自己說有違反公職人員選罷法還有刑法等等的相關責任。而且他講的細到各個名冊格式，包含標題、文字、字體、各欄次序、長、寬等，這個只要有問題，那就是違法。結果我們發現花蓮有4,000份的格式有問題，到現在有搜索嗎？沒有啊！有大量傳喚嗎？沒有啊！所以這到底是怎麼回事呢？我們在這兩天聽到的，新竹的林志潔前立委參選人叫大家來簽連署，然後會請喝咖啡、吃蛋糕，我們一聽這個絕對是賄選嘛，但現在也沒有任何的動作。但是我們看到對於其他的地方，譬如今天對宜蘭就超級有效率，趕快去搜索，然後現在把人全部都帶回去市調處，在做這種事情，所以這是我心裡覺得不公平啦，我是替人民出來講話，這個國家、這個司法對於人民是不公平的。而且昨天部長還有局長敢在那邊跟我講「我們都是依法處理」，我跟你講，鬼才信啦！我今天幹過20年的檢察官，我很清楚這些長官在玩什麼東西，只是這一次的長官玩得比以前嚴重更多，國民黨執政時代他們有沒有這樣碰，大家心知肚明；民進黨執政時代，他們有沒有這樣碰，大家也心知肚明，但是我所看到的是這一屆玩得最誇張、最離譜！","各位都是國家真正很強的棟樑啦，我也不管、也不在乎大家政治思想是什麼，但是我們在執行司法、執行公務的時候就靠心裡那一把尺，我也有我自己的政治傾向，但是過往我不管在辦國民黨的劉家或是在辦民進黨的市長，我永遠心裡就那把尺，就是司法怎麼樣，我就怎麼辦，即使辦到後來部長對我都很不諒解，我還是堅持辦，因為這是司法人員的堅持嘛！我辦劉家也被他們檢舉了好多年啦，我也從來沒有怨恨他們什麼，我就只是看該怎麼做。我記得次長也曾經打過一通電話給我，你在處理劉家那時候告我的案子，那個時候您應該是在法務部處理這個案子，那時候我在桃檢，你有打電話跟我問一下整個內情、狀況，我有跟你回復，所以我們是提著人頭在辦案、在對抗強權，但是現在司法的長官們是怎麼做的？","我再請教一下次長，關於花蓮的這個案子，後來為什麼這4,000份有問題卻沒有提告？當時的花蓮地檢說因為沒有人來告啊！我想請問一下次長，沒有人檢舉的案子、非告訴乃論的案子地檢署就不用發動偵查嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：當然不是，檢察官因為告訴、告發、自首或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑者，應即開始偵查。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，謝謝次長、謝謝老師。我想「剪報分案」也是檢方的日常，今天這麼嚴重了，大家鬧哄哄成這樣，而且非常多罷免團體也都被辦的情況下，花蓮地檢署竟然可以說因為沒有民眾來告，所以這4,000份的事情我就沒有處理，後來是侯漢廷跑去提出告發。我的意思是，花蓮地檢的這個說法，會不會太騙人民、太侮辱人民的智商？「剪報分案」是很多人民都知道的事情，更何況司法人員？結果花蓮地檢署竟然可以說沒有啊！沒有人來告啊！所以我沒有辦啊！這個東西我也沒有辦法接受，跟老師報告一下，這個我沒有辦法接受，因為我覺得這個也是選擇性的不作為，前面是選擇性的作為，這邊是選擇性的不作為。","我覺得國家如果要愚民，就不要讓我念書，你讓我念書了，大家念到博士了，我們念到博士了，然後你再來給我騙一堆弱智的人才會被騙的事情，那這樣的國家不知道在搞什麼，不然你就讓我們全國人民都不要念書，全部小學3年級畢業就好。如果不是這樣的話，請不要把大家當笨蛋看，就像刪除預算一樣，還叫大家不要送解凍案來，他忘記了我們有好多同學跟親戚都在中央機關上班，他們都會私下跟我說上面交代解凍案都不要送，要讓人民對你們不爽。對啊！所以我說這就是現在的政府，我不知道現在政府到底是福國利民、心存善念的在對待人民，還是在搞它的政治鬥爭？所以我最近對於司法的問題越來越生氣，現在司法真的完全不是我以前想像的。","次長，我再請教一下，關於筆跡有沒有重複，到底目前大家的判斷標準是什麼？為什麼大家看一看就可以搜索？請教次長。"],["黃次長謀信：當然現在才在搜索階段，它要求證據能力的程度不會像法院，到法院通常是透過鑑定的證據方法去確認這是否有偽造，因為在偵查中，他申請相關的搜索票也好，並沒有要求要有證據能力……"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["黃次長謀信：也許檢察官基於勘驗，勘驗也是一個調查方法，勘驗之後認為他可能有偽造之嫌，他也許就提這個證據向法院聲請……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝次長，這都是我們很熟悉的嘛。","但是我也要跟在場各位報告一件事情，不管在高雄韓國瑜的連署案子，或者是在北檢當時辦郭台銘連署案的案子，其實檢察官到最後都認定罷免團體的領銜人是被動的收這些連署書，他沒有審核的能力，也沒有戶役政系統可以比對真假，依照現有的制度，現有的制度確實……北檢也說了，依照現行法制之下，被連署人確實無權要求民眾出具證件核實才能參加連署。既然有這麼大的漏洞，當時國民黨提案罷免要附身分證影本，民進黨又狂擋，還在那邊騙人民說國民黨沒收罷免權，其實我們希望能夠有一個嚴謹的連署，結果民進黨不肯，他們設了一個局讓大家跳進去，結果現在連署了，他們就開始說有一些可能是有問題，就像在基隆，有人6點半跑到人家家裡問你：這是不是你連署？結果那個人說：對啊！這我簽的。今天你們司法機關竟然可以拿著這個東西，覺得兩個人的筆跡很像就可以把它當作一件刑事案件偵辦，那不就等於坐實了……原來民進黨不想要附身分證影本就是想要讓國民黨簽一簽之後……反正司法都在你們手上啦，隨便你們怎麼玩。他直接拿連署書到你家去問，問這是不是你簽的，然後開始擾民、開始玩這些……如果今天要附身分證影本的話，今天這個狀況發生的機率大概非常低。所以我覺得一整套套路下來，民進黨就是不停的用制度在玩弄國人，不然我們都附身分證影本，大家都玩真的就好了，為什麼要擋到底？他們顯然就設一個局讓你跳，讓他們控制的司法人員可以隨便拿兩張說這個筆跡很像就開始調查，就變成這樣子，有司法人員陪著調查。","我想講的是，檢察官是看證據辦案，不是看政治辦案，今天千萬不要變成是看政治辦案，這真的是不可取。我過去20年在檢方的時候辦了很多執政黨的人，當然把我們自己搞得全身都是傷，我以前覺得我受那個傷是對得起國人，所以我願意這樣做，那你們變成今天這樣，讓我想到我以前好像是笨蛋，為什麼我會逼自己一切要依法處理，要愛這個國家，要為這個國家做事？我現在看到的都完全不一樣！罷藍的直接處理罷團，罷綠的就早上直接去處理那個敢連署的人，然後對於罷藍團體的領銜人還可以讓他移到下午再開庭，讓人家用臉書感謝，這就是我看到現在的司法。","好吧！我還是說，犯罪就該偵辦，我不會去批評檢方啟動犯罪調查這件事，所以我一路以來都沒有說你們處理罷藍團體是不對的，但我只是要求公平的對待，請注意手段目的的比例原則，否則在一個完全不符合比例原則的情形之下，我沒有辦法接受，也請重視一下正當的法律程序，你們目前的作為讓我沒有辦法苟同這些事情。各位還要想到一件事情，你們現在搜索羈押了這些人，萬一以後判無罪呢？判無罪之後的冤獄賠償也是拿全民的錢去賠給他們，今天搞了這些人，達到你們的政治目的，結果到最後判無罪還是拿人民的錢去賠給他們，民進黨沒事啊！沒受傷啊！得到好多的政治紅利啊！反正賠的是國家的預算，也不關他們的事。這是我現在看到的，而且我預測將來可能會面對很多這種東西，我相信會有很多人會被判無罪，因為你怎麼說他有辨識偽簽的能力？檢調機關真的不要變成司法鬥爭的工具。","最後我想提一個東西，跟今天的法案是有一點關係的，在這個PowerPoint上面，我希望你們兩週內能夠提一個報告，對於車禍過失傷害的告訴乃論之罪要加強刑事附帶民事的權益告知，因為有一些人不知道，整個走完之後卻過了損害賠償的請求權時效，實務上有很多人來跟我陳情這件事，但我跟他說：這是因為法律的規定。但是行政機關、司法機關確實可以幫忙做這個。","最後給我30秒，剛剛吳思瑤講到禁制區的問題，就是集遊法禁制區廢除，我對要不要廢除沒有意見，但是當年是民進黨提廢除的，所以吳思瑤可能要回去先跟黨問一下，當初是民進黨提出要廢除禁制區，不是國民黨，結果他們今天執政了又覺得禁制區要存在，這就是他們的雙標，不管在財劃法、國會改革等等，民進黨永遠在雙標。","然後，他剛剛說立法委員不能變違法委員，帶隊到臺北地檢署前面去集會，針對那個集會，法律上面當然可以給予評價，但是我在這邊要跟各位再報告一件事，去年12月青鳥要衝進立法院，在那邊剪斷鐵絲網、妨害公務，毀損跟妨害公務這兩個也是犯罪啊，為什麼沒有見到你說立法委員是違法委員呢？好，劉世芳明明沒有指揮警察辦案的權力，結果他可以叫警察移送誰、移送誰，然後大家問他，他就說：違法就要辦啊！如果劉世芳說違法就要辦，那劉世芳要不要辦鍾佳濱？因為鍾佳濱在那邊剪鐵絲網啊，那是毀損，那要不要辦王定宇那幾個？他們在那邊叫：趕快衝進立法院！趕快衝進來！那個是妨害公務，劉世芳要不要指揮警察辦案呢？所以我覺得就是永遠雙標啦！自己沒有指揮的權力也在那邊說要指揮警察，丟臉丟死了！連自己最基本能做什麼都搞不清楚。","立法委員在那邊敲壞立法院的桌子、拔斷麥克風、打破玻璃，晚上跑進立法院都沒事？都不是犯罪？然後到北檢前面集會一下就違反集遊法，犯天大的罪，好像要殺頭一樣？結果你在這邊幹了一堆蠢事，丟臉丟到國外！摸女生屁股、摸女性立法委員屁股還上很多國家的報紙頭版卻沒事？這就是我們現在看到的。剛才吳思瑤委員說他今天是來這邊給大家上法律教育課，我覺得他自己才應該要去上一下法律教育，他自己搞不太清楚法律，他自己才應該先去上法律教育課，懂一下什麼是正常的法律。","不好意思，謝謝各位，再麻煩兩週內能夠把這個報告給我們，可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝，謝謝各位。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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到最近日本"},{"start":118.553,"end":137.994,"text":"日本原能所宣布開發出首款的核廢料充電電池雖然沒有辦法一舉解決所有核廢料的問題但是我們至少期待已經有看到曙光日本原能所正式宣布以後"},{"start":138.995,"end":145.198,"text":"為活性物質 設計出新款可充電的電池呢日本原理所他號稱喔這款的充電電池呢電壓達到1.3伏特那麼接近了鹼性的這個電池的1.5伏特所以本席在這邊請教主委目前河岸會對於日本這個先進技術我們了解的程度是如何那麼我們國內"},{"start":165.789,"end":183.863,"text":"是不是也有類似像這樣的一個研究在進行中你認為它日本所宣布的這是不是也可以來解決核廢料的一個面向請說明我們有 核安會有注意到這方面的消息 先請高院長跟委員長說一下這個我們有掌握 基本上"},{"start":189.727,"end":207.627,"text":"核廢料電池用核廢料來處理事實上國營院三年前也做過一個研究但是發現這個CP值都非常的低包括日本這個研究它是用一個含鈾的電解液它甚至說可以到1.3快要接近了減進了1.5伏特"},{"start":209.529,"end":230.532,"text":"對 他認為有穩定電力的供應但是我們國內要把鈾用過核廢料做鈾的分離受到美國跟國際原子能所總署法規的規定有限制所以我們不可能從用過核燃料去提煉做再處理我們不可能 但是我們還是有其他的研究是是是"},{"start":230.672,"end":249.573,"text":"我們有其他研究也會注意 密切注意中國大陸 中國方面也有類似的研究所以我們希望看全世界各國有哪一些面向我們當然都要集聚這些的智慧跟解決方案限制 所以沒辦法從何非料所以一定要好好的去跟世界接軌"},{"start":250.914,"end":271.515,"text":"哪一方面有哪一方面的面向的一個方案我們都可以拿回來作為借鏡好 那接下來本席要請教我們的這個核廢料它分為高低放射性的廢棄物那目前我們高的部分是用過的燃料棒"},{"start":272.296,"end":282.264,"text":"那其餘的我們歸類在低放射性的這個廢棄物目前我們國內僅針對於低放射性廢棄物有最終處置設置場址設置的條件的這個條例主管機關單位是我們的核安費那主辦單位是經濟部高的部分呢高放的這個處置呢到目前為止我們還沒有法源"},{"start":299.719,"end":304.422,"text":"所以目前政府傾向維持高放跟低放來分開立法的原則那麼我們現在河岸會也改組為安全管制機關經濟部將擔下高放的選址立法的責任那經濟部現在也緊鑼密鼓地在籌設放射性廢棄物處置的專案辦公室所以請教主委"},{"start":328.297,"end":338.938,"text":"在目前我們的核燴料的處置上面 核安會你的角色功能是如何你又要怎麼樣跟經濟部來分工合作 請做說明"},{"start":340.325,"end":366.79,"text":"目前处理高阶核废料当务之急是新建干涉储存设施本会会继续监督台电推行的这个计划这是当务之急高阶核废料还没有到最终处置的时候将来因为有科技进步有很多新的方法来处理包括把高阶核废料转换低阶核废料"},{"start":369.233,"end":396.459,"text":"這個技術一直大家都在研究我們相信未來會有一些成果出現一直在研究未來會有一些成果出現那經濟部現在他們正在籌備這個專責的辦公室那未來我們和安會要怎麼樣跟經濟部去做合作的這個事宜呢現在新的專責機構最重要的是跟地方的溝通"},{"start":397.899,"end":421.751,"text":"就是Local Consent無論如何有沒有核電廠都一定會有核廢料所以低階核廢料儲存廠一定要有地方放所以這方面的地區的溝通地方的溝通是非常重要這是關鍵所以專責辦公室專案辦公室的重點是在跟地方來協調對對對所以你的說法是如此嗎院長要不要再說明一下"},{"start":427.777,"end":445.888,"text":"報告委員那個經濟部的專欄辦公室他的主要工作一個是高放處置的選址法案推動那另外他還監作高低放廢棄物選址作業以及必要的地址調查跟社會溝通"},{"start":447.301,"end":456.766,"text":"好 我們也就是希望既然政府有這個專案辦公室那在整個的合作事宜我們希望能夠這個緊密結合這個才能夠達成這個效能嗎是的好 加油 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝楊瓊英委員所有請回我們接下來請萬美玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時33分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，本周一是世界地球日，總統接見了全國的NGO團體、環團代表，特別針對核能發表看法，總統表示核能議題需要凝聚共識，政府將持續穩定供電、開發多元綠能，也不排除任何有助淨零的方案，行政團隊對於未來新的、先進的核能技術保持著開放的態度，但是也特別說，任何的政策變更都必須滿足核安、核廢及社會共識才可能來進行。針對這樣的一個說法，本席要請教主委，核安會對於核能發電的立場是什麼？總統以及行政院長還有經濟部郭部長都表示對於先進的核能技術採取開放的立場，那核安會的態度呢？請主委說明。"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會對新進核能技術也是採取開放立場。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，也是開放的立場，那我們繼續來討論，核能的爭議最主要就是核廢料好像目前還沒有解方，但是核廢料沒有辦法處理的這一點引起了大家的疑慮，過去核電科技再怎麼進步，都去不掉核廢料處理未能有解方的陰影，但是最近日本原能所宣布開發出首款的核廢料充電電池，雖然沒有辦法一舉解決所有關於核廢料的問題，但是我們至少已經有看到期待的曙光，日本原能所正式宣布以鈾為活性物質，設計出新款可充電的電池，日本原能所號稱這一款充電電池電壓達到1.3伏特，接近鹼性電池的1.5伏特。","所以本席在這邊請教主委，目前核安會對於日本這個先進技術了解的程度是如何？國內是不是也有類似像這樣的研究在進行中？你認為日本所宣布的，是不是也可以來解決核廢料的問題？請說明。"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會有注意到這方面的消息，最新情形請高院長跟委員說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，院長。"],["高院長梓木：這個我們有掌握，基本上核廢料電池用核廢料來處理，事實上國原院3年前也做過一個研究，但是發現CP值都非常的低，包括日本這個研究，它是用一個含鈾的電解液……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，它甚至說可以到1.3，快要接近鹼性的1.5伏特。"],["高院長梓木：對，它認為有穩定電力的供應，但是我們國內要把用過的核廢料做鈾的分離，會受到美國跟國際原子能總署法規的規定，它有限制，所以我們不可能從用過的核燃料去提煉做再處理，我們無法做，但我們會注意……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不可能，但是我們還是有其他的研究……"],["高院長梓木：是，我們有其他研究，也會密切注意，中國大陸方面也有類似的研究……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望看全世界各國有哪一些面向，我們當然都要集聚這一些智慧跟解決方案。"],["高院長梓木：但是我們有所限制，所以沒辦法從核廢料……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以一定要好好的跟世界接軌，看有哪一方面的面向、方案，我們都可以拿回來作為借鏡。"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教，核廢料分為高、低放射性的廢棄物，目前高的部分是用過的燃料棒，其餘我們歸類在低放射性的廢棄物。目前我們國內僅針對於低放射性廢棄物有最終處置設施場址設置條例，主管機關單位是核安會，主辦單位是經濟部。高的部分，高放的處置到目前為止我們還沒有法源，所以目前政府傾向維持高放跟低放分開立法的原則，現在核安會也改組為安全管制機關，經濟部將擔下高放選址立法的責任，經濟部現在也緊鑼密鼓地在籌設放射性廢棄物處置專案辦公室，請教主委，目前我們在核廢料的處置上面，核安會的角色、功能是如何？你又要怎麼樣跟經濟部來分工合作？請做說明。"],["陳主任委員明真：目前處理高階核廢料，當務之急是興建乾式貯存設施，本會會繼續監督台電推行這個計畫，這是當務之急，高階核廢料還沒有到最終處置的時候，將來因為科技進步，會有很多新的方法來處理，包括把高階核廢料轉為低階核廢料，這個技術大家一直在研究，我們相信未來會有一些成果出現。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一直在研究，未來會有些成果出現？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟部現在正在籌備這個專責辦公室，未來核安會要怎麼樣跟經濟部去做合作的相關事宜呢？"],["陳主任委員明真：現在專責機構最重要的是跟地方的溝通，就是local consent，無論如何，有沒有核電廠都一定會有核廢料，低階核廢料貯存場一定要有地方放，所以這方面的地區溝通、地方的溝通是非常重要，這是關鍵。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以專案辦公室的重點是在跟地方協調？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委的說法是如此嗎？院長要不要再說明一下？"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，經濟部專案辦公室的主要工作，一個是高放處置選址的法案推動，另外還兼做高、低放廢棄物選址作業，以及必要的地質調查跟社會溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，既然政府有這個專案辦公室，在整個合作事宜，我們希望能夠緊密結合，才能夠達成效能。"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油，謝謝！"],["陳主任委員明真：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，主委請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160642","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160642","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5d8f4d1a3fe232d479742596ee20a55b87970360821fa2dae420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:23:23 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部長署長那針對我們2021年開放美豬進口以來其實我國開始對於我們食品安全還有農民的權益這個時候也受到廣泛的關注那最近因為美國要加徵台灣對等32%對等關稅雖然已經暫緩90天可是我們還是有10%的基本關稅那美國的貿易代表署"},{"start":55.84,"end":82.949,"text":"3月31號那時候有公布2025年對外貿易障礙的評估報告那時候有指出台灣針對美豬的標示以及美牛進口這些貿易障礙非貿易障礙針對這些非貿易障礙他們認為說需要讓步那部長認為我們這一次食安的問題會不會成為我們台美貿易談判的籌碼"},{"start":85.068,"end":104.625,"text":"謝謝委員,我還是要重申,對守護死安、守護人民的健康這是我們衛福部,我相信也是政府最重要的一個目標那至於說,川普那邊美國所列出來的一些事件,當然我們都要做好準備"},{"start":106.187,"end":114.154,"text":"這樣才能夠因應未來的各種變局那我想政府是一體的所以我們各個部門當然提供他的專業的一個"},{"start":117.151,"end":136.197,"text":"科學的分析以及論述做最好的準備但是這都必須要守護、食安讓我們台灣的人民在食方面是最安心在健康方面可以說是得到最好的照顧我想這個部分是我們大家一起在努力"},{"start":136.917,"end":160.449,"text":"所以針對我們這次台美貿易談判的籌碼食安問題部長應該會堅守為我們國人的食安健康來堅守這個底線吧我們一定堅守食安最優先然後我們會提供因為我們畢竟是專業屬於專業的部門所以我們會提供相關的議題的科學的分析好那針對我們一些數據的統計喔台灣在"},{"start":165.131,"end":191.634,"text":"每年平均豬肉的消耗量在亞洲來講僅次於香港那我們針對來季的殘留容許量我們也訂定高標準那剛剛部長也有講我們也希望守護國人的健康安全那針對我們食藥署署長是不是也跟部長一樣針對殘留容許量的標準我們是不是一樣不會有讓步"},{"start":195.166,"end":208.461,"text":"謝謝委員的提問針對提到豬肉裡面的每個可食用部位的檢驗的標準產業標準的部分萊克多巴胺這部分屬於動物用藥"},{"start":209.842,"end":234.098,"text":"動物用藥的評估其實我們在跨部會裡面的協作之下對於動物用藥的檢驗其實都是會有科學方法做檢驗檢驗出來之後在最後的殘餘定的標準的時候是配合著國人的所謂的飲食習慣跟國人的營養調查會把所有的攝食量加殘餘會定出我們所謂的每日的攝食的一個標準"},{"start":235.499,"end":258.802,"text":"這個設施的標準呢是用國際的標準在進行評估的這個是非常非常重要的一件事實那也符合國人在飲食習慣的特殊性所以定的有跟國際的有一些些差異那這個部分呢其實我們會堅持我們對於科學評估以及我們的特殊性會有機會呢好好來把我們特殊性做一些表述"},{"start":259.062,"end":280.491,"text":"所以我們今天提出來最主要目的就是我們針對美豬的標示還有帳類殘留標準還有美國牛絞肉牛油等我們希望還是依照現行的標準尤其那個豬肉來源的標示我們也希望能夠要維持因為我們希望雖然這個去談判"},{"start":283.257,"end":301.247,"text":"加大進口但是我們針對這食安問題的標準我們應該是寸步不讓那尤其我們主管國人健康的衛福部還有我們邊境食品跟市場查驗的食藥署這部分部長跟署長剛剛講的是不是能夠捍衛我們國人健康針對食安問題這個標準是不是把這個標準底線能夠來幫我們來捍衛"},{"start":311.679,"end":330.968,"text":"我想我們一定在國人食安的最重要的堅持之下當然我們對任何的食品我們一定去做好風險的一個科學的分析定定安全跟合理的規範這個要是合乎"},{"start":334.109,"end":351.014,"text":"而且要根據我們國人科學的實證跟國人膳食的一個習慣做好沒關係部長我們今天提出來最主要的目的因為你一直講都是重複在講我是希望我們今天提出來我們當然我們談判有這個籌碼但是我們認為加大進口"},{"start":356.176,"end":375.683,"text":"之外我們希望這個食安問題的標準要為了我們國人的健康我們要來捍衛還有我們針對食藥署的部分到時候我們加大進口之後勢必我們食藥署有沒有規劃要提升邊境跟市場的查驗這部分有沒有規劃"},{"start":379.275,"end":405.222,"text":"委員跟委員報告其實我們特別感謝的在今年度他3月份的時候對於邊境的查查的人力在人事總長的親自去到我們的北區管然後去視察之後給我們增加人力從原來72個人力的部分往上能夠提升到33個人力目前我們持續在配置增加這個查查的量能"},{"start":405.922,"end":427.974,"text":"那能的部分其實特別跟委員報告一下我們使用的所謂BPIBorder Protection Intelligence用人工智慧導入我們邊境查查會更精準的查查這是我們持續在做也有一些小小的成果我們是希望我們未雨綢繆因為你將來勢必如果加大進口"},{"start":429.736,"end":441.61,"text":"針對這個邊境跟市場的查驗勢必一定要增加驗的量變大了還有我們之前有沒有發生過美豬混合其他國家的豬肉來販售去規避這個美豬標示產地的這個問題之前沒有發生過"},{"start":447.659,"end":466.589,"text":"報告委員這邊我們對於所有的豬肉的標示呢其實不只是美國來的西班牙來的澳洲來的任何一個國家的標示產地的標示都是一體適用的國內的也是有所以有台灣豬標示等等那對於這個標示的議題下有沒有標示的不清楚的"},{"start":466.949,"end":486.42,"text":"我們有也有採取過相關的一個個案是屬於標示不清而且標示不清的部分呢也讓我們的邊境跟區管跟地方的衛生局共同協作那我們最針對這個標示的部分我們就持續的一個加強好我們需要這部分要注意因為勢必將來萬一這個廉價的美豬進口之後我們擔心這種曾經發生過的這個案例類似情形我們怕會"},{"start":495.638,"end":523.659,"text":"會更嚴重謝謝委員那因為現在美國的豬肉各國豬肉我們其實是採取他們自由貿易進口的部分我們就加強在邊境的一個查查跟後市場端跟補充一點點報告我們查查到110年開始每年我們都查查到目前為止呢我們查查結果呢大概是今年1月份114年查查大概是6597件都沒有不符合規定的"},{"start":524.139,"end":548.51,"text":"那另外呢110年到114年我們總共查了29萬7千多件有111件是不符合規格規定的是標示的其中19件為美豬的產品因此可以看到其實不是標準只有美豬的標示我們所有的標示我們都會一併的查查好因為這曾經發生過啦我們擔心萬一加大進口這個問題會更嚴重好那謝謝部長署長那我請問一下那個請教農業部"},{"start":552.895,"end":553.26,"text":"好 請問農業部次長"},{"start":560.47,"end":582.017,"text":"是委員好好次長那勢必要將來我們如果在談判之後加大對美豬牛的進口那我們擔心了這個對於農業是不是一定會有所衝擊尤其這些養豬啊養牛這些的業者好這些農民是不是會有對他有很大的衝擊沒有評估過嗎"},{"start":584.057,"end":603.602,"text":"應該這樣說啦 其實台灣的養豬產業對我們農業是重要的因為每年產值有800多億 這是第一點那第二點 目前我們國人食用豬肉大概有90%都是我們國產的所以養豬產業是很重要它對國人的消費 國人喜歡我們自己的台灣豬肉這一點是重要的"},{"start":604.122,"end":625.308,"text":"那至於其他進口的因為大概我推測這些進口的豬肉其實能夠直接上到我們市場的部分相對應該是走加工比較多因為台灣豬肉的風味相對好所以其實我們包括國人去消費去購買包括我自己上市場買我覺得優先一定選我們自己台灣的國產豬肉"},{"start":627.782,"end":641.274,"text":"對啊那我們現在是擔心說因為勢必喔將來這個豬肉如果進口加大之後那我們擔心說這個產地標示不清沒有標示的話勢必會影響衝擊到我們台灣國產的豬"},{"start":644.597,"end":666.533,"text":"那這一部分是不是產地這一部分我們這個標示的部分一定也要幫忙捍衛除了做區別之外其實對農業部來講其實我們對我們自己的養豬產業怎麼讓它能夠第一個是在整個經營上面的更有效率因為其實產業是要永續的所以怎麼讓它降低成本這個才有競爭力第二個是我們養豬產業對我們的社會責任怎麼讓這個循環來做"},{"start":671.836,"end":681.84,"text":"對環境的污染也好對養豬的成本降低也好這樣就有競爭力所以讓我們自己有競爭力我們對其他國家我們就能夠站得更穩因為我的選區有很多都是養豬衛生的農民那我們現在也很多農民在緊張就是針對這關稅問題對於美國我們勢必有可能會加大開放美豬進口那是不是我們農業部針對"},{"start":700.266,"end":716.234,"text":"這一部分在我們很多有養豬的這些地區能夠來辦理這個說明會來解除我們農民的疑慮甚至如果將來開放之後有沒有一些相關的補助辦法能夠跟他們說明一下"},{"start":717.655,"end":736.977,"text":"其實我們等到開放 我們現在對我們的養豬產業 本來就有很多支持措施所以謝謝委員給我們這個機會 不管是委員辦座談 我們做委員會 還是我們辦座談 我們邀請委員來我們對整個養豬產業的措施 不是只有以後才要做 是現在就在做那相關的一些 我們都願意很樂意跟你們溝通"},{"start":738.078,"end":763.195,"text":"那针对这部分可能本席到时候在我们地方召开这个说明会因为一方面厘清我们这些农民他们的疑虑甚至我也希望想了解一下我们农业部针对这些有没有超前部署有一些规划一些补助的配套措施能够让他们知道说我们农业部在这部分已经有注意到我们很乐意去说明谢谢谢谢市长好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時23分）謝謝主席，請我們邱部長還有我們姜署長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長、署長。針對我們2021年開放美豬進口以來，其實我國開始對於我們食品安全還有農民的權益，這個時候也受到廣泛的關注，最近因為美國要加徵臺灣32%對等關稅，雖然已經暫緩90天，可是我們還是有10%的基本關稅，美國的貿易代表署在3月31號那時候有公布2025年對外貿易障礙的評估報告，那時候有指出臺灣針對美豬的標示以及美牛進口這些非關稅貿易障礙，他們認為說需要讓步，部長認為我們這一次食安的問題會不會成為臺美貿易談判的籌碼？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員，我還是要重申，對守護食安、守護人民的健康，這是我們衛福部，我相信也是政府最重要的目標。至於美國川普所列出的相關項目，我們都要做好準備，如此才能因應未來的各種變局。政府是一體的，所以各部門當然都要提供專業、科學的分析及論述，做最好的準備以守護食安，讓臺灣人民在食的方面可以最安心，在健康方面也可以得到最好的照顧。這部分需要我們大家一起努力。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這次臺美貿易談判的籌碼，部長應該會為國人的食安健康堅守底線吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定以食安為最優先，我們畢竟是專業部門，所以針對相關議題，我們提供科學分析……"],["涂委員權吉：這裡有些數據統計。臺灣平均每年的豬肉消耗量，在亞洲來講僅次於香港，而針對萊劑的殘留容許量我們訂定了高標準。剛剛部長也有講，希望能守護國人的健康與安全，那麼食藥署署長是不是也跟部長一樣，對殘留容許量的標準一樣不會讓步？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員提問。針對豬肉可食用部位的檢驗標準與殘留標準，萊克多巴胺屬於動物用藥，對動物用藥的評估，其實在跨部會的協作之下，均以科學方法來針對動物用藥做檢驗。而檢驗出來，最後所訂出的殘餘標準係配合國人的飲食習慣與營養調查，將所有的攝食量跟殘餘來訂出每日的攝食標準，且該攝食標準是用國際標準來進行評估，這是非常重要的事實，也符合國人飲食習慣的特殊性，因此與國際所定的標準有些差異。我們會堅持這部分的科學評估及特殊性，希望有機會能好好地表述我們的特殊性。"],["涂委員權吉：本席今天最主要目的是希望美豬的標示及內臟類的殘留標準，還有美國牛絞肉、牛油等，都能依照現行標準，尤其豬肉來源的標示要維持。雖然談判時可能被要求加大進口，但我認為涉及食安標準我們應該寸步不讓！衛福部主管國人健康，而負責邊境食品與市場查驗的則是食藥署，雖然部長跟署長剛剛講了很多，但就這部分來說，是不是能夠捍衛我們國人的健康？尤其是食安標準，不知是否能捍衛住標準底線？"],["邱部長泰源：我再重申，我們一定堅持住國人的食安標準，對任何食品都一定做好風險管理與科學分析，訂定安全與合理的規範，且合乎科學實證及國人的膳食習慣，做出管理措施……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，部長，本席今天提出問題的最主要的目的……部長一直重複在講，談判當然要有籌碼，但若必須加大進口的話，為了國人健康著想，我們希望部長能捍衛食安標準。針對食藥署的部分，一旦加大進口，請問食藥署有沒有規劃提升邊境跟市場的查驗？這部分有沒有規劃？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，在今年3月，非常感謝人事長就邊境查察人力一事，親自到我們北區館視察後答應增加人力，從原來的72人往上增加33人，目前我們持續在配置增加查察的量。至於能的部分，也要特別跟委員報告，我們使用的BPI（Border Protection Intelligence），將人工智慧導入邊境查察，這是更精準的查察，這是我們持續在做的，也有一些查察成果。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望能未雨綢繆，若將來加大進口的話，那麼對邊境與市場的查驗勢必會增加，畢竟量變大了。還有，之前有沒有發生過美豬混合其他國家的豬肉來販售，以規避美豬標示產地的問題？之前有沒有發生過？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，對於豬肉標示，其實不只美國來的，西班牙來的，澳洲來的，不管任何一個國家來的，標示產地均一體適用，國內也是如此，有臺灣豬的標示。至於有沒有標示不清楚的？有，我們也有裁處過相關個案，就是因為標示不清。因此，就標示不清這點，邊境會跟區管及地方衛生局共同協作，我們也會就標示部分持續來加強。"],["涂委員權吉：希望這部分要注意。萬一將來廉價的美豬進口之後，我們擔心曾經發生過的案例或類似的情形會更嚴重。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。現在不管美國豬肉或各國豬肉，都是自由貿易進口，所以我們會加強邊境與後市場端的查察。另外跟委員補充報告，我們的查察從110年開始，每年我們都進行查察。到目前為止，今年（114年）查察數是6,597件，沒有不符合規定的。110年到114年，總共查了二十九萬七千多件，其中有111件不符合標示，19件為美豬產品。因此可以看到並非只有美豬標示會查，所有的標示我們都會一併查察，以上跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：畢竟這曾經發生過，所以我們擔心萬一加大進口的話，這問題會更嚴重。謝謝部長、署長。","接下來我請問農業部次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：次長，在談判之後如果我們加大對美豬牛的進口，我擔心勢必會對農業造成衝擊，尤其是養豬、養牛業者與農民是不是會有很大的衝擊？你們有評估過嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，臺灣養豬產業對我們農業來講是重要的，因為每年產值有八百多億，這是第一點。第二點，目前國人食用的豬肉大概有百分之九十都是國產，所以養豬產業對我們來說很重要，對國人的消費……國人喜歡我們自己的臺灣豬，這一點很重要。","至於其他進口的部分，我推測這些進口豬肉能直接進入市場的……應該是走加工比較多。畢竟臺灣豬肉風味相對好，所以國人消費購買的，包括我自己到市場買，一定都優先選臺灣國產豬肉。"],["涂委員權吉：我們現在是擔心，一旦將來加大進口，若產地標示不清，甚至沒有標示，勢必會影響、衝擊到臺灣國產豬。所以產地標示問題，請農業部一定要幫我們捍衛。"],["杜次長文珍：除了做區別之外，對農業部來講，如何才能讓我們自己的養豬產業在經營上更有效率？畢竟產業是要永續的，所以怎麼才能降低成本？這樣才有競爭力。其次是養豬產業的社會責任，不管是對環境的污染或降低養豬成本，都要能循環，這樣將來才有競爭力。讓我們自己有競爭力，這樣即使其他國家的產品進來，我們自己也還是站得很穩。"],["涂委員權吉：因為我的選區有很多都是養豬維生的農民，現在很多農民都很緊張，針對這個關稅問題，對於美國，我們勢必有可能會加大開放美豬進口，是不是請農業部針對這一部分，在很多有養豬的地區，能夠來辦理說明會，來解除我們農民的疑慮？甚至如果將來開放之後，有沒有一些相關的補助辦法能夠跟他們說明一下。"],["杜次長文珍：其實不用等到開放，我們在現階段對於我國的養豬產業本來就有很多支持的措施，所以謝謝委員給我們這個機會，不管是委員辦的座談，我們都很願意去參加，還是由我們來辦理座談，然後再邀請委員來參加，我們對整個養豬產業的措施，不是只有以後才要做，是現在就在做，相關的一些，我們都很樂意跟他們溝通、說明。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這個部分，本席到時候可能會在我們地方上召開說明會。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：因為一方面釐清這些農民他們的疑慮，甚至我也希望了解一下，農業部針對這些有沒有超前部署，有一些規劃、補助的配套措施，能夠讓他們知道，農業部在這部分已經有注意到。"],["杜次長文珍：有，我們很樂意去說明，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝次長。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：謝謝涂委員，謝謝次長。","接續我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5eee0f096379b484bc89945c4c3ca21e17970360821fa2daee3fa70f8cb21ccda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:27:55 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先進列席的總統江蘇環 官員會長 觀眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請陳主委好 陳主委"},{"start":27.094,"end":55.026,"text":"主委好文藝好我知道主委啊是請看下一頁主委也是文學造詣很高啦我們來研究一下文學這是一個民眾黨的公投提案文他說恢復繼續運轉請問恢復跟繼續有沒有衝突啊恢復就是做一件事情停下來然後要恢復再去做對不對那繼續是什麼就是一直做一直做嘛那請問您的"},{"start":56.252,"end":76.018,"text":"語文的認知 什麼叫做恢復繼續我這是沒有科學的問題 這文學的問題你認為這個公投是要做什麼這修詞學的問題 我不敢說我是專家啦你的認知一般人看到這個是怎樣 到底何三長幹嘛"},{"start":77.725,"end":103.466,"text":"我猜就是要它要運轉就對了繼續運轉就對了繼續運轉但是好了我們看一下來另外一個常識的問題請問主委下一題你知道我們目前台灣的發電的配比吧火力發電燃氣的四成七燃煤的三成然後呢其他的有大概三成三趴綠能已經超過12趴核能不到5趴是不是這樣子"},{"start":105.499,"end":133.404,"text":"跟你的認知一樣啦 好 我們看一下晚一些但是呢 又到用電量我們看一下目前以裝置容量來講北部是沒有核能的 中部是沒有核能的只有南部屏東有951MW然後呢 我們看看用電用電的部分 哪裡用最多 北部用最多嘛發電的部分 哪裡發最多 南部發最多嘛"},{"start":134.235,"end":150.686,"text":"所以是不是可以合理推論,目前我們的發電裝置是以南部為主,而且供應可能以北部來使用,可以這樣說嗎?南部發電量是比較大北部用量多嘛,所以是不是南電北送,好往下看"},{"start":151.741,"end":169.148,"text":"所以今天有很多人在關心電力不足所以有人主要用核電那有人說到未來的AI發展還有那個Data Center數據化的部分會推升那您覺得這樣的一個用電台灣的用電區的推估你覺得有它的合理性嗎是要繼續用電會增加嗎"},{"start":179.166,"end":193.561,"text":"我現在是問常識啦那麼未來的用電需求是北部上升的會比其他地方來的多這個推論又是可能啦好那我們來看一下再來是你們的專業了再來說核電廠因應這樣的情況就是有人說要讓他"},{"start":199.343,"end":225.963,"text":"運轉要停止那停止要五年前申請換照有沒有這個法律規定有有這個法律規定好我們再看下一頁那麼目前河山廠有沒有已經超過了申請換照的期限有沒有有有嗎好已經不可能了嘛因為呢兩個都在一個在去年的四月七月二十七一個在今年的五月十七而且呢除疫計劃也審核通過預定什麼時候會取得除疫許可"},{"start":229.249,"end":249.279,"text":"五月 還平 除役許可 好 那往下看那所以一旦除役之後 目前法條規定是不是叫做永久停止運轉是的好 那麼不管有人要他繼續運轉 或者恢復運轉 要不要修法要那目前法有沒有在修 修過了沒"},{"start":251.377,"end":278.552,"text":"還沒有好所以呢一個公投主文要恢復繼續一個衝突的語句在法條上它不存在能夠馬上運轉的可能性但是現實上台灣未來的用電需求增加北部比南部更多那請問我們最後一題來是不是未來如果說要恢復"},{"start":279.824,"end":291.261,"text":"核電要恢復使用 第一個要通過修法第二個 用電竟然在北部 您覺得那如果真的要恢復核電是不是核一核二比較符合用電地區的需求啊"},{"start":295.339,"end":314.872,"text":"主委這個部分恐怕台電比我更適合台電比你更清楚好沒關係其實接下來我想大家就講很清楚了這個主委是我們課級的很受尊敬的領袖啦那我等一下就說侯羅維我們主席比較聽話啦一般來說啦像這種情形喔在香港來說啦"},{"start":316.394,"end":344.451,"text":"你在用電,我在吃辣,就是稀得又沒什麼品德,叫做臭俗辣啦主委聽懂嗎?聽得懂所以我們就知道為什麼有人會被說臭俗辣就是這種提案呢,就是稀得又沒什麼品德北部在用電,北部的核電廠都不用恢復運轉南部用電少,又要南部來承擔風險我請主委可以把這樣的嘗試的方式呢來跟其他的周邊的人分享以上的諮詢,謝謝"},{"start":345.572,"end":348.37,"text":"謝謝維園"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時28分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道主委也是文學造詣很高，我們來研究一下文學，這是一個民眾黨的公投提案文：恢復繼續運轉。請問恢復跟繼續有沒有衝突啊？恢復就是做一件事情停下來，然後要恢復再去做，對不對？那繼續是什麼？就是一直做、一直做嘛。請問以您對語文的認知，什麼叫做恢復繼續？我這次沒有科學的問題，這是文學的問題，你認為這個公投是要做什麼？"],["陳主任委員明真：這是修辭學的問題，我不敢說我是專家。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以你的認知，一般人看到這個是怎樣，到底核三廠要幹嘛？我猜就是要運轉就對了。"],["陳主任委員明真：對，繼續運轉就對了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下另外一個常識的問題，請問主委，你知道我們臺灣目前的發電配比吧，火力發電燃氣的四成七，燃煤的三成，其他的大概有3%，綠能已經快12%，核能不到5%，是不是這樣子？跟你的認知一樣？"],["陳主任委員明真：差不多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下用電量，目前以裝置容量來講，北部是沒有核能的、中部是沒有核能的，只有南部、屏東有951MW。然後我們看看用電，用電的部分哪裡用最多？北部用最多嘛；發電的部分哪裡發最多？南部發最多嘛。所以是不是可以合理推論，目前我們的發電裝置是以南部為主，而且供應給北部來使用，可以這樣說嗎？主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：南部發電量是比較大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，北部用量多嘛。"],["陳主任委員明真：對，北部……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這是南電北送。","往下看，今天有很多人在關心電力不足，所以有人主張要用核電，有人說到未來的AI發展，還有data 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謝謝周委 有請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":19.134,"end":33.825,"text":"陳主委應該現在還是早安我想剛剛有幾位委員都有講到就是上禮拜五台灣民眾黨黨團在院會臨時提出公投案試圖通過公投針對第三核能發電廠他們覺得用他的"},{"start":37.409,"end":53.609,"text":"話語叫做繼續運轉那當然主文是問說你是否同意在經過整體安全評估後恢復繼續運轉那針對這個問題我想剛剛主委有談到您的用語叫做local consent 是不是local consent"},{"start":53.829,"end":74.198,"text":"就是翻成中文就是在地同意對那我們來看其實針對研議的事情我們沒有一個法規清楚的規範要怎麼行使評估安全評估怎麼行使local consent可是我們根據低放射性廢棄物最終處置設置長指設置條例候選長指"},{"start":77.299,"end":92.27,"text":"光一個低階的放射性廢棄物的候選長職本身都必須要經當地縣市公民投票同意才能夠成為候選長職這個部分很明確就是local consent嘛在地同意對不對那可是呢你也可以看到光就是說"},{"start":100.056,"end":126.938,"text":"剛剛武力華為也有提到金門烏丘跟台東達人被選為低階放射的這個候選常識他們依法要進行地方公投他連辦都拒絕辦他覺得辦好像就已經變成是有可能同意了所以地方政府的立場是非常的清楚那依法他應該要辦他是拒絕辦所以你這程序又走不下去所以地方政府就直接跳出來反對了就沒有local consent了對不對"},{"start":127.899,"end":156.493,"text":"所以我們才會核廢料連低階的那也要反駁一下剛剛居然有民眾黨委員講芬蘭說全世界只有芬蘭有最終儲置場意思就是說那大家都沒有最終儲置場高階的然後所以現在繼續有核電廠沒問題他忽略了一個重要事實很多國家其實有低階的低階的就是儲置場那人家地大物薄跟我們非常的不一樣我們現在是連低階的"},{"start":157.714,"end":182.809,"text":"而且就是還不是最終這個處置廠的候選場址都沒有當候選人都不願意了更何況是最後被選定那所以我想國際上我們查一下1976年美國加州全民公投就訂了法律禁止在該州建造新的核電廠禁令到現在仍有效日本1996年的日本新系現捲釘"},{"start":185.67,"end":212.248,"text":"就經由地方公投案否決捲丁核電廠的建設2014年瑞士博恩邦曾對核電廠是否應提前關閉進行過地方性的公投那我們可以看到就是以媽媽企業行動聯盟的資料依照日本核電廠的慣例啟動之前會先徵得地方政府的同意"},{"start":213.028,"end":240.782,"text":"所以他們最近沒有得到地方的同意想要在日本最大的新系線博齊那個字怎麼唸義語合電廠就是要有這個那結果呢就有14萬人連署他們要公投因為依日本的慣例你這個部分其實是要公投的那我們其實已經看到地方政府周春米"},{"start":241.802,"end":261.036,"text":"剛剛林怡瑾召委也有提到周春米縣長就很直接講這個多數暴力要公投這個部分而且在立法院是近乎二讀那事實上沒有尊重屏東人的意見屏東人的生命安全他最後寫屏東要安全 屏東要繁榮 屏東人的命運由我們自己決定"},{"start":262.077,"end":277.154,"text":"那天我們屏東的立委現在鍾嘉斌也在場待會應該也會繼續表達還有莊瑞雄就是幾位屏東的委員都表達反對所以這件事情有屏東的local consent嗎那個主委以你現在看到的事實認定"},{"start":281.158,"end":299.817,"text":"看來是沒有看來是沒有嘛那您同不同意這個公投投下去非常的粗暴完全我們跟民主國家比日本我們現在很驕傲我們好像在一些評比比日本還民主那這樣子是符合民主精神嗎這個公投"},{"start":300.799,"end":321.357,"text":"沒有local consent您剛講您的專業都知道要local consent連個核廢料低階這個候選場址都要local consent了那這個完全忽略地方的民意那這是不是一個不尊重民主程序的公投案因您了解的local consent有嗎"},{"start":325.331,"end":337.703,"text":"我想我們的立場就是尊重公投法還有立法院的決議來辦理尊重公投法公投法裡面有講那個低結核廢料需要local consent嗎"},{"start":339.161,"end":360.161,"text":"因為以低階核廢料這個選址條例它算是特別法然後Geno的公投法是這個不是屬於地方公投的事項這就是我希望你們去了解的低階核廢料因為這裡把這個local consent具體明文化了所以候選長址就得不到同意就走不下去因為地方政府都反對"},{"start":360.982,"end":368.647,"text":"那今天呢就是因為我們這個研議的東西沒有一個很清楚的法規針對安全評估怎麼樣要處理也要local consent所以現在會出現這個粗暴的這個河山研議的公投案完全不尊重屏東的縣政府屏東的立委那他們的表達意見就是他們反對立委選出來當然代表民意嘛縣政府 縣長選出來代表民意"},{"start":390.14,"end":413.266,"text":"那主委你是不是可以去研議一下就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施長指設置條例那相關的研議最壞的情況如果這個粗暴公投通過的話當然我們是反對的那是否你可以去研議相關的修法就比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設置長指的設置條例"},{"start":415.902,"end":437.033,"text":"你建一個核電廠,當年40年前台灣不是個民主國家你40年後,你低階核廢料都要當地居民的同意了剛剛主委的專業術與local consent那是不是也應該把這個精神放在相關的研議與否安全評估的法規中呢可以去研議吧,我請你研議喔"},{"start":440.356,"end":463.033,"text":"主委 這裡有主委來打好了 好不好 去研議好嗎有關研議部分 目前是沒有需要公投目前沒有 但是我們是可以修法嘛 您是主管機關 和安會嘛這個低放射性這個最終處理場設置條例 是不是你們也是相關的主管機關是嗎 對 那既然你們這樣可以比照它去研議吧"},{"start":465.154,"end":481.411,"text":"演繹主委演繹當然這是可以討論的議題那就請主委去演繹好嗎可不可以演繹三個月之內給我們一個報告給本席一個報告初步的就好看看其他國家的經驗好不好好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝范雲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時17分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["范委員雲：陳主委早安。剛剛有幾位委員都有講到上個禮拜五台灣民眾黨黨團在院會臨時提出公投案，試圖透過公投針對第三核能發電廠，用他們的話語叫做繼續運轉，當然主文是問：你是否同意在經過整體安全評估後，恢復繼續運轉。針對這個問題，剛剛主委有談到您的用語叫做local consent是不是？"],["陳主任委員明真：對，local consent。"],["范委員雲：翻成中文就是在地同意嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["范委員雲：其實針對延役的事情，我們沒有法規清楚規範安全評估要怎麼行使local consent，可是根據低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例，光一個低階放射性廢棄物的候選場址本身，都必須要經當地縣市公民投票同意才能夠成為候選場址，這個部分很明確就是local consent（在地同意）對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：是。"],["范委員雲：剛剛伍麗華委員也有提到金門烏坵跟臺東達仁被選為低階放射性廢棄物的候選場址，依法要進行地方公投，可是他們連辦都拒絕辦，他們覺得辦好像就已經變成是有可能同意了，所以地方政府的立場非常清楚，依法他們應該要辦，可是他們拒絕辦，所以程序就走不下去嘛！因為地方政府直接跳出來反對，所以就沒有local consent了對不對？也因此我們連低階的核廢料處置都有問題。你要反駁一下，剛剛居然有民眾黨委員說全世界只有芬蘭有最終處置場，意思就是說大家都沒有高階核廢料最終處置場，所以現在繼續有核電廠沒問題，它忽略了一個很重要的事情，很多國家其實有低階的核廢料處置場，人家地大物博，跟我們非常不一樣，我們現在是連低階核廢料最終處置場的候選場址都沒有，當候選的都不願意了，更何況是最後被選定。我們查一下國際上的資料，1976年美國加州全民公投訂了一個法律，禁止在該州建造新的核電廠，禁令到現在仍有效；1996年日本新潟縣卷町經由地方公投案否決卷町核電廠的建設；2014年瑞士伯恩邦曾對核電廠是否應提前關閉進行過地方性的公投。我們可以看到以媽媽氣候行動聯盟的資料，依照日本核電廠的慣例，啟動之前會先徵得地方政府的同意，他們最近沒有得到地方的同意，想要讓日本最大的新潟柏崎刈羽核電廠重啟運轉，結果有14萬人連署他們要公投，因為依日本的慣例，這個部分其實是要公投的。剛剛林宜瑾召委也有提到周春米縣長就很直接講公投這個部分是多數暴力，而且在立法院是逕付二讀，事實上沒有尊重屏東人的意見、屏東人的生命安全，他最後寫：屏東要安全、屏東要繁榮、屏東人的命運由我們自己決定。屏東的立委鍾佳濱現在也在場，待會兒應該也會繼續表達，還有莊瑞雄等幾位屏東的委員都表達反對，主委，以你現在看到的事實認定，這件事情有屏東的local consent嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：看來是沒有。"],["范委員雲：看來是沒有嘛！那您同不同意這個公投投下去非常的粗暴，跟民主國家比，我們現在很驕傲，我們在一些評比上好像比日本還民主。這樣子是符合民主精神嗎？這個公投沒有local consent，您剛剛講以您的專業都知道要local consent，連個低階核廢料候選場址都要local consent了，現在卻完全忽略地方的民意，這是不是一個不尊重民主程序的公投案？以您了解的local consent有嗎？"],["王主任秘書重德：我想我們的立場就是尊重公投法還有立法院的決議來辦理。"],["范委員雲：尊重公投法？公投法裡面有講低階核廢料需要local consent嗎？"],["王主任秘書重德：以低階核廢料選址條例來講，它算是特別法……"],["范委員雲：對，只是因為你們沒有一個……"],["王主任秘書重德：就general的公投法，這個不是屬於地方公投的事項。"],["范委員雲：這就是我希望你們去了解的，針對低階核廢料，因為這裡把local consent具體明文化了，所以候選場址得不到同意就走不下去，因為地方政府都反對。今天就是因為我們延役的東西沒有一個很清楚的法規，針對安全評估怎麼樣處理也要local consent，所以現在會出現粗暴的核三延役公投案，完全不尊重屏東縣政府、屏東的立委，他們表達的意見就是他們反對，立委被選出來當然代表民意，縣長被選出來也代表民意，主委你是不是可以研議一下，就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例相關的研議，最壞的情況如果這個粗暴公投通過的話，當然我們是反對的，是否你可以去研議相關的修法？就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例。當年建一個核電廠，40年前臺灣不是一個民主國家，40年後連低階核廢料都要當地居民同意了，剛剛主委所說的專業術語local consent，是不是也應該把這個精神放在相關延役與否及安全評估的法規中呢？可以去研議吧，我請你研議喔！這由主委來答好了，去研議好嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：關於延役的部分，目前是沒有需要經過公投。"],["范委員雲：對，目前沒有，但是我們可以修法，主管機關是核安會嘛！針對低放射性最終處置場設置條例，你們是不是也是相關的主管機關？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["范委員雲：是嘛！既然這樣，你們可以比照它去研議吧？研議耶，主委！"],["陳主任委員明真：當然這是可以討論的議題。"],["范委員雲：好，那就請主委去研議好嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：好，我們會討論。"],["范委員雲：關於研議，可不可以3個月之內給我們一個報告、給本席一個報告，初步的就好，看看其他國家的經驗，好不好？"],["陳主任委員明真：好！"],["范委員雲：謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，主委請回。","我們接下來先來處理臨時提案，請宣讀。","案由：","核電廠終有除役之日，美國核能管制會（NRC）專家曾表示，如果核電廠不停機就呈交除役計畫書，輻射量尚未穩定降下，對於輻射前置調查作業恐欠缺準確的估算，例如反應爐區的管線、反應爐壓力槽和燃料棒之間的空間等，即無法掌握輻射量多寡；無法準確掌握輻射污染程度，即無法準確掌握除役過程需要的清理經費及人力需求。","為避免紙上作業的拆除計畫書與實際現場執行產生嚴重落差，導致最後除役經費暴增，或造成輻射擴散，危及周遭居民及第一線除役人員的健康，或使輻射污染繼續殘留在核電廠區等嚴重問題，建請核安會對於核電拆除計畫書應嚴加審查，同時未雨綢繆，加緊培訓專業除役人員，並對核三二號機停機除役工作儘早研謀因應，俾能善盡核安監管之責。","提案人：林宜瑾","連署人：郭昱晴　　張雅琳　　范　雲"],["主席：好，謝謝。這個案子是本席的臨時提案，我的目的就是要求核安會針對即將停機的核三2號機，無論如何一定要嚴加審查拆除計畫書以及一切除役的相關工作，同時也要有足夠的專業除役人員來保障職場安全，讓相關的除役工作可以落實、安全能夠被確保。","請教委員有沒有其他意見？（無）如果沒有其他意見，核安會主委這裡？"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會可以同意這個提案。"],["主席：好，我們這個案子就照案通過，謝謝。","接下來繼續質詢，我們首先請鍾佳濱委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e57187b723749df3449742596ee20a55b87970360821fa2dae6dbb4e661cf025135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:11:02 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整套桌子 還有台灣雕我們平常也有一些在那裡妳怎麼會這麼豐富呢一定的妳也幫得上忙你們編了180億 夠嗎"},{"start":170.896,"end":183.164,"text":"謝謝委員支持臺灣農業這是一定要做因為農業真的不是說是吃飽吃好其實是一個糧食安全和國家安全的基礎那當然也是一個文化傳承那181 到底夠不夠我相信這樣說現時我們是先變這件事希望是渡費這個困難"},{"start":187.927,"end":203.157,"text":"都怪這個困難這個是短時間之內那以這個美國現在10%的關稅來看先這樣做長期來看支持農業一直要往前走這絕對不是只有180億現在要做的事情農業部肯定要一直跟我們台灣農業站在一起"},{"start":203.937,"end":217.935,"text":"對啦,所以我們經貿辦這邊談判,我們台灣的農業,剛才很多委員講已經是對美國是入操了嘛,所以我們才有底氣嘛,美國是前九十萬的低價估估,"},{"start":221.92,"end":232.833,"text":"我記得在第八屆立委的時候,我非常欽佩田秋晴委員、陳潔如委員我在當召委,他們堅持就是要零檢出邱部長你也是說要零檢出嘛但是2021年開放,什麼40個PPB、10個PPB"},{"start":244.353,"end":272.777,"text":"現在進來的,剛剛你講的大部分也都是沒有用萊克多巴胺嘛,對不對只有美國進來的有,是這樣酒都要保留在裡面,我只推廣我也贊成我也來Promote只有台灣豬啦我都要保留在裡面,我不會替美國人說話啦我在舊金山Fremont那邊看那個超市我去看他們,真的跑去看他們的超市的豬肉跟牛肉"},{"start":273.649,"end":292.337,"text":"他標示得很清楚,這個有用瘦肉精的,這個沒有瘦肉精的,分開然後你要買,實在是另一回事,你要吃瘦肉精的,吃瘦肉精的這個我跟大家報告,那個有加瘦肉精的,那個價格是比沒有加瘦肉精的還貴一點"},{"start":294.81,"end":308.545,"text":"真的是瘦肉,油花比較少,因為有代謝所以要標示最重要,我們自己的所有商業都要保護你進口的美國豬肉"},{"start":315.851,"end":330.235,"text":"八千多噸嘛,每一年進來,剛才王毅民一直在追,一直在追說都遭遇到,都遭遇到營養午餐啦,遭遇到7-11,燉完啦營養午餐不能用進口,營養午餐臟Q一定是我們台灣國產的,農業副理事也只推廣台灣豬"},{"start":340.509,"end":360.649,"text":"好 希望是這樣啦那我們現在養豬的頭數你說6000多個養豬場屏東都佔了20幾%左右屏東的場數最多最多嘛那我們一直在關心現在我們的豬肉也可以銷日本冷藏的就可以銷日本啦要不然加工的啦不不不 重點是價位"},{"start":365.303,"end":383.094,"text":"這裡一廂,這裡一廂有出去,還有新加坡,去新加坡新加坡跟菲律賓我有去參加,台灣的豬肉本身品質也非常好那外務部的標示跟農委會的標示,欸你標示這是什麼意思啦是農委會比較厲害,還是外務部比較厲害為什麼標示都不一樣"},{"start":388.37,"end":396.374,"text":"這樣就能夠證明是我們台灣豬啊不然那...北省不那麼聰明啦北省就簡單就好 看得到就好大大隻 台灣豬很清楚那我們經貿辦談判一定要捍衛這個我們的糧食一定要保護我剛剛講那個家造走廊那個就是完全沒有生產力"},{"start":417.076,"end":444.649,"text":"它是200多平方公里上面住了200多萬人然後所有的一點一滴都是從外面輸進來你知道一天只有貨櫃車幾千台貨櫃車從西奈半島這邊上去然後以色列要過不過的要進不進的每一個人的飲用水都不到20公升然後他的糧食能夠拿到的人不到30%"},{"start":446.547,"end":472.739,"text":"要就是要讓那些人都死死的讓那些人都遷就讓那些人移民、駐紮走廊、以色列永久佔領是不是這樣 我不知道但是看那個樣子是這樣就硬幹所以 打仗封鎖是非常非常的殘酷我們如果現在都零關稅全部的米 美國的米都一百美國的什麼東西都一百台灣整個農業都崩盤"},{"start":474.758,"end":494.459,"text":"我們真的被封鎖的時候,真的打仗的時候,我們是死的,我們的人口數是袈裟走廊的十二倍,所以這個經貿辦你們要以國家的,日本有些人很硬啊,日本講到農業,他們聽就不要聽啦,他就跟他拚,所以你看你們的立場,這個很重要。"},{"start":495.47,"end":513.616,"text":"跟委員報告我想不論是我們現在跟美國之間是出超關係或入超關係我們一定都是據理理真更何況我們現在農產品對美國來說完全是對他來說是一個順差的這個情況之下所以我覺得這個是第一個我們會跟美國去訴求我們跟他"},{"start":514.116,"end":543.599,"text":"在很多的領域上面都是戰略夥伴的關係所以這是第一個我們一定會努力的去爭取第二個我想對於農產或農業它絕對不是一個單純的市場開放的問題所以我們還會兼顧到產業發展以及您剛才提到的這些糧食安全國人的健康這個絕對會是我們在通盤考量而且特別是我們會跟我們的農業主管機關討論之後才來決定我們的接下來要跟美國去進行談判的策略"},{"start":544.963,"end":557.403,"text":"我們稻米的收購價格是26塊每公斤我們在立法院給他搞到要31塊結果法案通過還沒有實施所以要調2塊錢"},{"start":560.15,"end":587.69,"text":"這是一樣的意思 我們的黃豆我們生產成本一公斤可能要60-70美國的黃豆可能要10公斤大規模的所以如果我們都沒有保護的話我們一定是崩盤好 我再問農業部你的牛肉 台灣的牛肉 自產的"},{"start":588.57,"end":604.694,"text":"差不多幾% 整年多少萬噸我們自己對消費市場佔有率差不多5%到6%牛肉嘛 國產牛肉那這些牛肉都是市的還是外土牛打起來的都有"},{"start":605.373,"end":614.597,"text":"都有啦,我那麼深入的,我幾乎每個禮拜都在跟那些乳牛業者為了那個紐西蘭的FTA簽完,他們的一公升才40塊的成本我們這邊要7、80、80、90,這個市府都趕快叫"},{"start":627.023,"end":640.692,"text":"那我們的牛肉我們自己才供應5、6%所以從國外進口的我們是沒有話講那我們的豬肉我們養了700一年才要產750萬頭豬肉差不多180天就一起那應該是要產到八九百萬頭才對啊怎麼會只有750萬頭"},{"start":651.564,"end":665.992,"text":"沒有啦,一方面就是因為我們的整個飼養環境當然也是有成本的可能,第二就是因為我們現在其實山龍提供我們國內的90%都是我們自己的國產豬肉,國人對那個風味其實也是非常敏感,所以"},{"start":667.232,"end":686.24,"text":"臺灣的豬肉在我們的市場其實選擇性我們的消費者比較喜歡所以臺灣的豬肉是有競爭性國人還是喜歡吃目前看起來是這樣進口的就是11萬噸美國差不多占8%大概一成左右總共一成左右"},{"start":687.02,"end":701.147,"text":"好,我是希望一定要堅持啦,今天排這個題目就是一定要捍衛住,尤其是談判的人齁,這個不要穿著西裝,帽子沒穿出來跟人家談判,談到買回來再扛扛"},{"start":704.028,"end":716.37,"text":"再說下去就難聽了,所以這個我是非常concern這一塊,每天會頂,因為我們家就做實的,我們家就在做虛擬的,我們的錢都在抓虛的,我們有可能說沒資格就用這個,而且是以農立國,農業為本,民意實為天,你這個農業要崩盤,你這個國家就"},{"start":730.881,"end":732.689,"text":"結束謝謝委員支持好謝謝好謝謝蘇清泉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時11分）謝謝主席，我請農業部杜次長，還有我們經貿辦顏首席代表。"],["主席：請杜次長。"],["蘇委員清泉：次長，屏東縣是農業大縣，養豬、養牛的都很多，我們的養殖漁業也發達，臺灣現在的漁業差不多是近海漁撈跟遠洋漁撈，差不多占45%，差不多嘛！箱網養殖跟岸上養殖差不多占55%，因為這次美國這樣搞下去，我們才發現農業是要好好地保護。我跟你講一個data，加薩走廊現在的難民差不多兩百萬人，差不多190到210萬，以色列是要炸哪裡就炸哪裡，要殺誰就殺誰，小孩子、嬰兒都不放過，這就是戰爭，已經死了10萬人左右了，加薩走廊什麼都沒有，每天需要的水、每天需要的糧食差不多沒辦法供應30%。所以臺灣的農業重不重要？當然重要！我去日本看到日本的米，它的價錢差不多是泰國的5倍，如果你去泰國，看到日本人離開泰國時，背包裡面都裝什麼呢？裝米。因為日本的米太貴又太好吃了，所以要拿泰國米來混和，因此農業一定要保護啦！這一次我們屏東的毛豆差不多占了51%，一年差不多是6,000公噸；我們的鱸魚、鬼頭刀、臺灣鯛及吳郭魚……"],["杜次長文珍：蝴蝶蘭，也有一些在屏東那邊。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們要好好保護欸！"],["杜次長文珍：一定會、一定會。"],["蘇委員清泉：不要就放任由它去。你們編了180億，夠嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員支持臺灣農業，這是一定要夠，因為農業真的不僅是吃飽、吃好，其實是一個糧食安全跟國家安全的基礎，當然也是一個文化傳承，180億到底夠不夠？我相信是這樣說啦！現在我們是先編這些錢，希望能度過困難，這個是短時間之內，以美國現在10%的關稅來看，先這樣做；長期來看，支持農業一直要往前走，這絕對不是只有180億，現在要做的事情，農業部肯定要一直跟我們臺灣農業站在一起。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！我們經貿辦這邊的談判，剛才很多位委員說，臺灣的農業對美國已經是入超了，所以我們這樣才會有底氣嘛！我們從美國進口的是豬肉和牛肉，我記得在第8屆立委的時候，我非常欽佩田秋堇委員、陳節如委員，我在當召委，他們堅持就是要零檢出，邱部長你也是說要零檢出嘛！但是2021年我們就開放什麼40個ppb、10個ppb，現在進來的，剛剛你講的大部分也都是沒有用萊克多巴胺嘛！對不對？只有美國進來的有，是這樣？"],["杜次長文珍：像農業部的立場，我只推廣、我也贊成、我也來promote只有臺灣豬啦！嘿啦！我農業部的立場我不會替美國牛說話啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：我在舊金山Fremont那邊看超市，真的跑去看他們超市的豬肉跟牛肉，它標示得很清楚，這個有用瘦肉精的、這個沒有瘦肉精的，分開，然後你要買，隨便，你家的事情，你要吃瘦肉精就吃瘦肉精。我跟大家報告，有加瘦肉精的價格是比沒有加瘦肉精的還貴一點，真的是油花比較少，因為有把它代謝掉嘛！所以標示最重要啦！我們自己的所有產業都要保護啦！"],["杜次長文珍：是，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：你進口的美國豬肉八千多噸，每一年進來。"],["杜次長文珍：是，大概……"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛王育敏一直要追，一直在追說都跑去哪裡，都跑去營養午餐啦！跑去7-11的貢丸。"],["杜次長文珍：沒有啦，營養午餐不能用進口的，因為營養午餐……"],["蘇委員清泉：當然都這樣講啊！"],["杜次長文珍：沒有啦，營養午餐三章一Q一定是用我們臺灣國產的，農業部立場也只推廣臺灣豬。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，希望是這樣啦！我們現在養豬的頭數，你說六千多個養豬場，屏東差不多占了二十幾趴左右。"],["杜次長文珍：屏東的場數最多。"],["蘇委員清泉：最多嘛！我們一直在關心現在我們的豬肉也可以銷日本，冷藏的就可以銷日本。"],["杜次長文珍：還沒，是加工的。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有，上次嘉一香有出去，去新加坡。"],["杜次長文珍：嘉一香去新加坡跟菲律賓。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有去參加，臺灣的豬肉本身品質也非常好，衛福部的標示跟農委會的標示，你們標示這是什麼意思啦？是農委會比較厲害還是衛福部比較厲害？為什麼標示都不一樣？"],["杜次長文珍：能夠證明是我們臺灣豬啊！嘿啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦，百姓沒那麼聰明啦，百姓就簡單就好、看得懂就好。"],["杜次長文珍：有啊！大大的「臺灣豬」很清楚。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我們經貿辦談判一定要捍衛這個，我們的糧食一定要保護，我剛剛講加薩走廊那個就是完全沒有生產力，它是兩百多平方公里，上面住了兩百多萬人，然後所有的一點一滴都是從外面輸進來，你知道一天只有貨櫃車，幾千台貨櫃車從西奈半島這邊上去，然後以色列要過不過的、要進不進的，每一個人的飲用水都不到20公升，然後糧食能夠拿到的人不到30%啊，就是要讓那些人都死一死，讓那些人都遷走、讓那些人都移民，以色列永久占領加薩走廊，是不是這樣我不知道，但是看那個樣子是這樣，是硬幹，所以打仗、封鎖是非常非常殘酷。如果現在你都零關稅，全部的米，美國米也進來、美國什麼東西都進來，臺灣整個農業都崩盤，我們真的被封鎖的時候、真的打仗的時候，我們穩死的，我們的人口數是加薩走廊的12倍，所以經貿辦你們要以國家的……日本也是很硬，日本講到農業，它連聽都不聽啦，它就跟它拼了，所以你看一下你們的立場，這個很重要。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，我想不論是我們現在跟美國之間是出超關係或入超關係，我們一定都是據理力爭，更何況我們現在農產品對美國來說完全是一個順差的情況之下，所以我覺得這個是第一個，我們會去跟美國訴求我們跟它在很多的領域上面都是戰略夥伴的關係，所以這是第一個，我們一定會努力地去爭取。第二個，對於農產或農業，絕對不是一個單純的市場開放的問題，所以我們還會兼顧到產業發展，以及您剛才提到的這些糧食安全、國人健康，這個絕對會是我們在通盤考量，而且特別是我們會跟農業主管機關討論之後才來決定我們接下來要跟美國進行談判的策略。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們稻米的收購價格是26塊每公斤，我們在立法院給它搞到要31塊，結果法案通過，還沒有實施，所以要調2塊錢，這是一樣的意思，我們的毛豆，不要毛豆，我們的黃豆，你剛剛講的，我們的黃豆，我們生產成本1公斤可能要26、27，美國的黃豆可能就10塊而已，因為大規模，所以如果我們都沒有保護的話，我們一定是崩盤。","好，我再問農業部，臺灣牛肉自產的差不多幾%？一年差不多多少萬噸？"],["杜次長文珍：我們自己在消費市場占有率差不多5%到6%。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是牛肉。"],["杜次長文珍：國產牛肉。"],["蘇委員清泉：這些牛肉都是養的還是從乳牛打起來的？"],["杜次長文珍：都有。"],["蘇委員清泉：我那麼深入了，我幾乎每個禮拜都在跟那些乳牛業者在……為了紐西蘭的FTA簽完，他們的1公升才40塊的成本，我們這邊要七、八十或八、九十，這些養牛的人都哀哀叫。"],["杜次長文珍：我們飼養的成本確實比較高。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，我們的牛肉，我們自己才供應5、6%，所以從國外進口的，我們是沒有話講。我們的豬肉，我們一年差不多產750萬頭嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：在養五百多萬頭，送屠宰場差不多七百多萬頭。"],["蘇委員清泉：豬肉差不多180天就一期，應該是要產到八、九百萬頭才對啊，怎麼會只有750萬頭？"],["杜次長文珍：沒有啦！一方面就是因為我們整個飼養環境當然也是有成本的考量；第二個就是因為我們現在其實產量提供我們國內大概90%都是我們自己的國產豬肉，國人對那個風味其實也是非常敏感，所以臺灣的豬肉在我們的市場，其實選擇性上，我們的消費者比較喜歡。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以臺灣的豬肉是有競爭性。"],["杜次長文珍：在市場大概90%，品質……"],["蘇委員清泉：然後國人還是喜歡吃。"],["杜次長文珍：目前看起來是這樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：進口的就是11萬噸，美國差不多占8%。"],["杜次長文珍：大概一成左右，總共一成左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我是希望一定要堅持啦！今天排這個題目就是一定要捍衛住，尤其是談判的人，不要穿著西裝、戴帽子出去跟人家談判，談到最後回來卻「空空」，再說下去就難聽了，所以我是非常concern這一塊……"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝召委支持臺灣農業，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：一定會盯啦，因為我家就是做事的，我家就在做魚塭，我的親戚都在捕魚，我怎麼可能不注重這個，而且是以農立國、農業為本，民以食為天，農業如果崩盤，你這個國家就結束了。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員支持，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇清泉委員。接下來請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160638","url":"https://ivo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52,"text":"跟委員說明有關於廚藝整個25年的期程台電規劃出來都有在河岸衛的網站都有那有關於那個長子所在地的輻射偵測那台電公司的相關資訊也都有都有放在網上公民眾可以去了解好 那目前來講是不是已經跟地方政府包括新北跟基隆建立所謂災後廚藝安全監控的聯繫平台呢"},{"start":137.995,"end":156.412,"text":"不是說核能發電廠核一核二除役之後那地方政府的聯繫就關這方面因為我們知道說這方面還是有很多其他跟地方政府需要聯繫的地方除役之後不是單純就是除役而已那跟地方政府之間的除役後的安全監控聯繫平台是否有建立"},{"start":159.984,"end":181.705,"text":"跟委員報告其實目前新北跟屏東他們基本上都還有這個所謂的地方的這個核能安全監督委員會那事實上不管是運轉或者是除役相關的議題也都會提到那一邊去做一個報告跟說明那每一次這個台電公司也都會針對"},{"start":183.166,"end":196.984,"text":"那個監督委員的要求提出相關的包括這個運轉除役後的期程跟除役後的委員關切的這些問題都有在這個監督委員會委員也都有提案來做一個說明"},{"start":198.251,"end":219.938,"text":"好 謝謝那我想請問第二個議題第二個議題其實我們知道說在亞洲這幾年來最慘烈的核安事件應該就是福島就是福島的核災那福島核災已經過了13年了那我們當初政府也承諾說過全面檢視 系統強化那針對說以下我想請問一下我們核安會針對我們這個核能發電廠"},{"start":222.739,"end":232.695,"text":"我們的海嘯牆我們的應急的電源我們通風的備援跟我們數位化系統是不是都已經全數的升級完成呢"},{"start":234.928,"end":263.787,"text":"跟委員說明,福島事後河岸外有一些列管的事項,包括委員提到的一些硬體設備,那另外還有一些軟體,包括運轉能源、電廠的一些應變程序都有。那有關於那個電力設備後備的電源都有去增設,移動式電源車啊,然後另外也增加重要廠房的水密門,然後也針對地震的一些強化,耐震強化也進行評估跟補強。"},{"start":264.688,"end":287.18,"text":"都已經完成謝謝您謝謝組長特地提到地震因為我下一個問題就是說因為現在極端地震其實發生的地方不會只是單純說在地震帶而已而是什麼地方都有可能發生發生地震那針對極端地震甚至山崩所造成的冷卻失敗的冷卻失效的模擬測試結果是什麼樣有關至少河山場吧"},{"start":290.088,"end":310.596,"text":"這個在台電公司我們列管的文件裡面有一項就是針對應變的程序包括緊急應變然後負荷災害的一些運轉操作這部分都有進行整合那也例行性的去測試演練 以上說明那目前結果是我們是測試到第幾級的地震呢"},{"start":313.131,"end":337.739,"text":"會依照我們參考美國的做法就是針對核一二三場所在地320公里範圍內可知的一些地震都納入評估然後進行強化大概可以承受到幾級地震以核二三場來講已經可以達到氣象署所定的最大級別7級地震以上"},{"start":339.472,"end":367.248,"text":"因為這就是我本來是想問既然已經跟美國因為我記得是美日法這三個國家相對來講是在國際之間被公認的核能強國那如果有跟他們一樣同行同步修訂的這個最新的災害標準跟這個演練參數那我想我就比較放心因為我們是希望說有更能夠實驗過後的實證資料跟持續改進的機制這樣對於我們的核能安全會有比較良好的一個保證"},{"start":368.909,"end":391.81,"text":"第三點我也想請教就是歷近來講這個軍演中國大陸的軍演這個是我們所謂的Clear and Present danger既迫切又實際的實在的威脅那其實不管什麼樣的軍演尤其是在目前這個地緣政治複雜的時候我們台灣的核能設施會是我們是一個弱點呢還是一個堡壘"},{"start":392.972,"end":396.257,"text":"我想請問一下我們核能發電廠有沒有納入所謂的戰略基礎設施保護網呢"},{"start":403.125,"end":425.298,"text":"有那既然有的話那沈河安會說明說在解放軍演習的期間針對核能發電廠進行的防護評估跟沙盤推演是什麼假設他們真的想說現在核一核二在處理嘛那如果核三的話目前如果解放軍他們真的來攻擊台灣那目前來講核能發電廠準備做什麼樣的防護評估呢"},{"start":427.445,"end":440.437,"text":"跟委員報告基本上依照國際公約任何的軍事行動是不可以供給核能電廠這是先跟委員做個說明但是也不排除說會有像譬如說像俄烏戰爭 札波羅的電廠"},{"start":442.359,"end":464.373,"text":"之後事實上會裡面就把相關的這些情境我們就已經納到我們每年的河岸演習的一個兵棋推演的一個過程這邊可以跟委員報告就是當我們知道有這樣的一個軍事威脅的時候首先當然就要針對場裡面的維生跟維運相關的物資的整備人員的部分就要補足充足隨時應變"},{"start":466.854,"end":483.41,"text":"那因為基本上是後續的話當然我們就會依照可能發生的情境再做一些推演所以我想這部分我們自從俄烏戰爭之後這個議題一直都在融在我們的核安演習的情境裡面以上"},{"start":484.588,"end":511.076,"text":"好 因為核能發電廠其實是我們很重要的戰略所以你應該講起來如果發生戰爭不發生戰爭會發生戰爭這個核能發電廠都是我們國家很重要的一個資源那我也想說我認為我們核能發電廠是不是有具備我們電力不管是電力冷卻水源還是通訊備源系統是不是有獨立的評估那我想今天我的時間有限我希望核安會在後面會後可以給我詳細的書面資料以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時8分）有請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["林委員沛祥：主委，核能安全是不容許絲毫妥協的，我相信核能有其科學價值跟能源戰略意義，我想以這一點來講，全國國人都應該一致的，我今天相對來講是以具體的市政跟社會的關注角度來提出質詢，請核安會儘量以正面、具體來做回應。第一個當然是有關核一、核二已經進入除役的階段，除役的階段不是一個任務的完成，而是另外一個更複雜、更漫長的風險管理的開始，有關這些像是高放射性的廢棄物處理也好，還是有關污染物的移除，甚至土地的再利用跟社區的安置這些議題，我想請問，核安會是否有具備長期追蹤這些場址風險之法定權責跟資源呢？"],["陳主任委員明真：是，有的。"],["林委員沛祥：有沒有公開除役各階段的時程跟環境監測的數據的標準格式？"],["陳主任委員明真：這方面詳細的時程我請組長跟委員報告一下。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，有關於整個除役25年的期程，台電規劃出來的部分在核安會的網站都有，有關於場址所在地的輻射偵測，台電公司的相關資訊也都有放在網上可以供民眾去了解。"],["林委員沛祥：好，目前來講，是不是已經跟地方政府包括新北跟基隆建立所謂災後除役安全監控的聯繫平臺呢？沒有嗎？對於核能發電廠核一、核二除役之後，有關地方政府的聯繫，因為我們知道這方面還是有很多需要跟地方政府聯繫的地方，除役之後，不是單純就是除役而已，跟地方政府之間是否有建立除役後的安全監控聯繫平臺？"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，其實目前新北跟屏東基本上都還有所謂地方的核能安全監督委員會，事實上，不管是運轉或者是除役，相關的議題也都會提到那邊去做報告跟說明，每一次台電公司也都會針對監督委員的要求提出相關包括運轉除役後的期程跟除役後委員關切的這些問題，都有在這個監督委員會，且委員也都有提案來做說明。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。我想請問第二個議題，其實我們知道在亞洲這幾年來最慘烈的核安事件應該就是福島的核災，福島核災已經過了13年了，我們當初政府也承諾全面檢視系統強化，我想請問一下，核安會針對我們核能發電廠的海嘯牆、應急電源、通風備援跟數位化系統是不是都已經全數升級完成呢？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，福島事件之後，核安會有一些列管的事項，包括委員提到的一些硬體設備，另外還有一些軟體，包括運轉能源、電廠的一些應變程序都有，有關於電力設備、後備電源都有增設移動式電源車，另外也增加重要廠房的水密門，也針對地震的耐震強化也進行評估跟補強，都已經完成。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝組長特地提到地震，因為我下一個問題就是因為現在極端地震發生的地方不會只是單純在地震帶而已，而是什麼地方都有可能發生地震，針對極端地震，甚至山崩所造成的冷卻失效模擬測試結果是怎麼樣？至少有關核三廠吧？"],["高組長斌：這個在台電公司我們列管的文件裡面有一項就是針對應變的程序，包括緊急應變及複合災害的一些運轉操作，這部分都有進行整合，也例行性去測試演練，以上說明。"],["林委員沛祥：目前的結果我們是測試到第幾級的地震呢？"],["高組長斌：會依照我們參考美國的作法，就是針對核一、二、三廠的所在地320公里範圍內可知的一些地震都納入評估，然後進行強化，目前核三……"],["林委員沛祥：大概可以承受到第幾級地震？"],["高組長斌：以核三廠來講，已經可以達到氣象署所訂的最大級別7級地震以上。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我本來只是要問，既然已經跟美國……我記得美、日、法這三個國家相對來講在國際之間是被公認的核能強國，如果有跟他們一樣同步修訂的最新災害標準跟演練參數，我就比較放心，因為我們是希望有實驗過後的實證資料跟持續改進的機制，這樣對於我們的核能安全會有比較良好的保證。","第三點我也想請教的就是，畢竟有關中國大陸的軍演，這是我們所謂的Clear and Present Danger，既迫切又實際、實在的威脅，其實不管什麼樣的軍演，尤其是在目前地緣政治複雜的時候，臺灣的核能設施會是一個弱點呢？還是一個堡壘？我想請問一下，我們的核能發電廠有沒有納入所謂的戰略基礎設施保護網呢？"],["陳主任委員明真：有。"],["林委員沛祥：既然有的話，請核安會說明在解放軍演習期間，針對核能發電廠進行的防護評估跟沙盤推演是什麼？現在核一、核二在除役了，針對核三，如果解放軍他們真的來攻擊臺灣，目前來講，核能發電廠準備做什麼樣的防護評估呢？"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，基本上依照國際公約，任何軍事行動是不可以攻擊核能電廠的，這先跟委員做個說明。但是也不排除會有像俄烏戰爭的札波羅熱電廠，事實上會裡面就把相關的情境納到我們每年核安演習兵棋推演的過程，在此可以跟委員報告，當我們知道有這樣的軍事威脅的時候，首先當然就要進行廠裡面維生及維運相關物資的整備，人員的部分就要補足，隨時應變。當然後續我們會依照可能發生的情境再做一些推演，針對這部分，自從俄烏戰爭之後，這個議題一直都融在我們核安演習的情境裡面，以上。"],["林委員沛祥：核能發電廠其實是我們很重要的戰略，嚴格講起來，不發生戰爭或發生戰爭，核能發電廠都是我們國家很重要的資源，我們的核能發電廠是不是具備電力、冷卻、水源以及通訊備援系統是不是有獨立的評估？今天我的時間有限，我希望核安會在會後可以給我詳細的書面資料，以上。"],["陳主任委員明真：好。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員，主委請回。","接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5a0306192b4c0c921aab39e7ea9331c7e7970360821fa2daeccdf77eee62e812e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:55:16 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謝謝主席 有請王複密然後請黃長賜 複密張賜 張賜不好意思委員早安 委員早大家早安 今天扣合著三個主題刑事訴訟法的修法然後立法委員成了違法委員嗎還有法庭的直播到底能不能上路 三個議題來進一提出我的質詢 下一頁有關今天有四個"},{"start":38.28,"end":55.178,"text":"刑事訴訟法的修法的議案那我自己初步認為在116條之二羈押替代處分增訂的廢紙並註銷護照旅行文件希望能夠藉由修法來防止被告逃逸到境外這個我支持"},{"start":56.072,"end":74.472,"text":"第二个呢,刑诉法101条之一,预防性羁押案件要增列儿少性剥削案件,避免相关的犯行者在程序进行期间再犯。那我个人也倾向支持。但第三跟第四呢,我认为就还需要再讨论。"},{"start":75.453,"end":101.944,"text":"第449跟451條之一呢就是修正檢疫判決處刑的程序的這個部分基本上因為我不是律師我不是檢察官法官出身我基本上會尊重法律十五屆的意見那我同時也看到法務部跟司法院針對如果涉及這樣子的修法那後續也免不了要去增加很多法院相關的一些負擔"},{"start":103.304,"end":129.853,"text":"那這些我覺得都可以再商量那第四個441條的非常上訴的這個他變動了檢查總長的裁量權限而且呢可能會混淆了非常上訴制度的功能所以用具體的個案的救濟有利與否來作為提醒非常上訴的要件我認為這真的是要挺看挺我大概把今天四個修法我兩個是100%支持"},{"start":132.774,"end":155.839,"text":"後兩項我認為都需要再討論我表達我的立場我也看到你們的完整報告好 謝謝 下一頁那現在就交於兩位的事喔我們在宣誓就職的時候都要克尊憲法 克尊國家法規這是我的宣誓每一個立法委員都是要這樣宣誓請問在台灣我們要克尊哪一國的法律"},{"start":157.827,"end":181.202,"text":"這簡單的ABC嘛當然是克尊中華民國的法律我真的不知道這個問題要成為今天立法院被討論的問題有民眾黨的委員呢引用中國的反分裂國家法要求行政院要遵從要克尊中國反分裂法的規定"},{"start":182.663,"end":197.695,"text":"然後來批判說,你如果沒有去參照中國的反分裂國家法,禁制的把中國定為境外敵對勢力,這樣對台灣很不好喔,會招致一些風險喔兩位怎麼看?蜉蜜,我們來做法治教育王蜉蜜"},{"start":208.84,"end":230.103,"text":"在台灣的立法委員在台灣的任何一個公民我們要遵守的是台灣中華民國憲法所制定的反滲透法還是要遵守中國所制定的反分裂國家法就這麼簡單因為立法委員也是國家機關的一部分所以當然是要遵守中華民國的法律"},{"start":230.643,"end":250.865,"text":"所以我們要遵守的是中華民國立法院制定的反滲透法嘛反滲透法的第二條第一款具體的針對境外敵對勢力的要件有非常清楚的定義這是立法院自己通過的法律怎麼立法委員要成了違法委員呢來 黃次長法治教育給您20秒"},{"start":252.386,"end":272.131,"text":"我們的確是在我們的反滲透法有對境外敵對勢力做一個立法性的定義什麼叫境外敵對勢力它包括交戰、對峙或者是主張以武力來非和平球段這個當然就會是我們反滲透法所定義的境外敵對勢力所以"},{"start":273.971,"end":293.504,"text":"不管政治立場是什麼不管你的政黨是什麼立法委員就要克尊中華民國的法律更何況這是立法委員自己立的法立委不要成為違法的委員立法委員成為違法委員了嗎去沖北檢沖北院請問極有法第六條規範的是什麼長次"},{"start":305.262,"end":323.229,"text":"它是有關於這個五院跟法院區區所在或周邊設置是禁止集會的除非有例外規定要不然是禁止集會的集合法第六條它規範了集會遊行的禁制區的四種樣態第一種就是重要的國家機關包括總統府"},{"start":324.449,"end":351.256,"text":"司法院考試院行政院但是立法院不算因為立法院秉持民意所以立法院我們是歡迎大家來表達不同的你的政治立場都可以所以說第一類是政府機關第二類是重要的交通設施嘛比如說機場港口是禁制區嘛第三類是軍事設施嘛重要的軍事設施不可以集會遊行嘛第四類就是駐外使館"},{"start":352.276,"end":376.219,"text":"對不對 我們要保護駐外使館的權益包括國際組織的駐台機構也都是極有法第六條所規範的集會遊行禁制區好 極有法是誰通過的立法院通過的立法院修法的請立法委員不要成為違法委員我今天還聽說在野黨的黨主席說他認為極有法是惡法要修"},{"start":377.711,"end":395.026,"text":"如果說是針對第六條要求大家真的可以討論但如果是為了方便個別的政黨為了鬥臭司法施壓司法消費司法要開放法院地檢署或是司法院能夠成為自由的"},{"start":396.6,"end":412.835,"text":"開放區我認為真的要深思兩位同意法院地檢署如果透過修法可以現在是禁制未來大家都可以要來抗議為了個案都可以來抗議你們的意見是什麼來我問秘書長覆名"},{"start":415.055,"end":437.588,"text":"司法院是反對的 最主要是司法院是人民來禁用司法的一個場域這不適合開放法務部呢 地檢署被包圍基本上也是不宜因為這涉及到地檢署跟法院的莊嚴性另外可能會對個案懲辦檢察官或法官造成心理上的強制所以都為了捍衛司法的獨立公正"},{"start":438.328,"end":457.45,"text":"我們都不以草率的去修集遊法有關於北檢北院或司法院可以成為集會遊行的場域我真的認為要慎重理由你們剛剛都說了但是立法院我們非常歡迎立法院從過去到現在甚至世界各國的立法院國會周遭都是"},{"start":458.431,"end":487.113,"text":"合法可以讓大家來表達不同意見的場域包括台灣也是好下一個立法委員不要成為違法委員喔這週末就要上凱道了我再次的呼籲我們國家有法規犯罪就是犯罪違法就是違法民主不容造假不管是會選不管是作票不管是罷免案的"},{"start":488.021,"end":507.363,"text":"未造联署都是违法行为如果立法委员上凯道是去挺作弊我想这真的是一笑大方也一笑国际今天花了一点时间我们来做法治教育接下来呢我们来进入另一个主题哦下一页"},{"start":508.188,"end":527.717,"text":"也就是藍白領袖的高峰會那會中有人提出要推司法改革就是要法庭直播法庭直播下一頁直播真的不是萬能喔直播也解決不了所有的問題"},{"start":530.031,"end":554.733,"text":"確實2017年司改國是會議有決議但他的決議是要先落實司法的透明跟友善再逐步來開放法庭直播這應當是當初司法國是會議一個完整的一個論述吧那但是我也找了資料當時的司改國是會議司法院有允諾要提出來研議開放法庭直播的草案你們有進行嗎"},{"start":556.096,"end":582.965,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分因為在思改國師會議期間它是一個議題所以司法院曾經做過非常周延的一個政策研討我們委託的那個學者專家就世界上就是重要這些法治國家就是進行了一個法庭直播的一個研究案然後之後我們也邀請了各方的能不能簡單分享一下幾個重要國際國家"},{"start":584.945,"end":611.763,"text":"就是目前來看跟我們相近的歐陸國家40省沒有人在開放的那就是即使是在美國他們有分聯邦跟邦就是聯邦的法制也都不開放原則上也都不開放那為什麼結論來講就是說特別是40省的法庭直播它對於法院的公正跟獨立性是很容易造成侵害是非常危險的"},{"start":612.823,"end":638.98,"text":"謝謝您的簡要報告所以您也說明了司法院試圖努力去提草案但是正因為我們做了這樣的研究做了這樣的評估包括去採酌世界各國的經驗也橫著台灣的司法現況所以你們才比較保留的態度我認為是可以持續研議既然有委員有倡議我們當然可以研議但是直播不是萬能我們還是有很多面向要考慮喔下一頁"},{"start":640.001,"end":661.591,"text":"那事實上也要替你們說一下啦在私改國是會議之後你們優先推動的司法資訊的透明公開其實已經做了相關的改革革新譬如說2021年已經修了法庭錄音錄影及其利用保存辦法那個時候也因為疫情推我們一把所以說相關的軟硬體的建制跟辦法已經有修好下一頁"},{"start":662.751,"end":685.126,"text":"那您剛講的世界各國的經驗跟保留的意見就看台灣法官協會是非常清楚的主張公開審判不等於法庭直播大家要三思各類訴訟參與者面對媒體傳播所承受的心理壓力是否影響到證人到庭作證的意願"},{"start":686.147,"end":714.592,"text":"被告是不是也會因此直播而面臨了全民公審導致司法的摯愛難行甚至影響判決的公正性所以說必須妥適去權衡公開直播的公益性與訴訟參與者的基本權一個是公益性大家想要直播想要透明想要公開但另外一邊訴訟當事者他才是這個案件的核心"},{"start":715.669,"end":723.822,"text":"他的權益基本權是不容去強害的所以法官協會的意見都告訴我們還要再三思喔下一頁"},{"start":725.114,"end":748.868,"text":"那事實上你們的預算現在也提出解凍案了史上被凍結最高的一次司法院的預算事實上這是2017年司改國是會議之後呢就已經有人替你們試算了如果說各級法院呢要事實審要法院法庭直播的話成本是非常高的你不管是自建直播系統或是採用租賃的系統那些東西一來一去"},{"start":750.68,"end":761.308,"text":"有一個數字是如果是租賃的方式像立法院我們的直播租賃的方式如果以你法院因為呢每年平均開庭57萬4千多次我們事實審法庭有598間可能要593億啊593億啊要推動的委員請三思國家的成本能夠來負擔嗎最後一頁也就是"},{"start":775.612,"end":792.76,"text":"有違各自法的保障將不利於事實的調查而且有違無罪推定的原則而且恐怕會影響法官的心證基於這些理由我今天再一次透過我的質詢我想我們可以持續演繹"},{"start":793.84,"end":818.28,"text":"可以持續研議但是直播不能解決所有的問題直播不是萬能立法委員也不要一直以直播來作為直播就萬歲直播就萬能在司法的領域上我認為這個是要深思熟慮的公開透明不等於全程直播能夠做到的司法的禁用友善"},{"start":819.241,"end":826.027,"text":"透明公開我們持續在其他的制度配套來推動好我們一起加油辛苦了謝謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":614,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時55分）謝謝主席，有請王副秘、請黃常次。"],["主席：請副秘、常次。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["黃次長謀信：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安。今天扣合著三個主題──刑事訴訟法的修法；立法委員成了違法委員嗎？還有法庭的直播到底能不能上路？就這三個議題提出我的質詢。","今天有四個刑事訴訟法修法的議案，我自己初步認為，在第一百十六條之二，羈押替代處分增訂「得廢止並註銷護照、旅行文件」，希望能夠藉由修法來防止被告逃逸到境外。這個我支持。第二個，刑訴法第一百零一條之一，預防性羈押案件要增列「兒少性剝削案件」，避免相關的犯行者在程序進行期間再犯。我個人也傾向支持。","但第三跟第四我認為還需要再討論，第四百四十九條跟第四百五十一條之一就是修正簡易判決處刑的程序部分，因為我不是律師，不是檢察官、法官出身，我基本上會尊重法律實務界的意見，我同時也看到，法務部跟司法院針對如果涉及這樣子修法，後續也免不了要增加很多法院相關的負擔，這些我覺得都可以再商量。","第四個，第四百四十一條非常上訴的部分，它變動了檢察總長的裁量權限，而且可能會混淆非常上訴制度的功能，所以用具體個案的救濟有利與否來作為提起非常上訴的要件，我認為這真的是要停看聽。今天的四個修法，我對前兩個是100%支持，後兩項我認為都需要再討論，我表達我的立場，我也看到你們的完整報告，謝謝。","現在要就教於兩位的是，我們在宣誓就職的時候都說要恪遵憲法、恪遵國家法規，這是我的宣誓，每一個立法委員都要這樣宣誓。請問在臺灣我們要恪遵哪一國的法律？這是簡單的ABC嘛！當然是恪遵中華民國的法律，我真的不知道這個問題要成為今天立法院被討論的問題。有民眾黨的委員引用中國的反分裂國家法，要求行政院要遵從、要恪遵中國反分裂國家法的規定，然後來批判說，你如果沒有去參照中國反分裂國家法，逕自把中國定為境外敵對勢力，這樣對臺灣很不好，會招致一些風險。兩位怎麼看？王副秘，我們來做法治教育。在臺灣的立法委員、在臺灣的任何一個公民，我們要遵守的是臺灣中華民國憲法所制定的反滲透法，還是要遵守中國所制定的反分裂國家法？就這麼簡單。"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為立法委員也是國家機關的一部分，所以當然是要遵守中華民國的法律。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我們要遵守的是中華民國立法院制定的反滲透法嘛！反滲透法的第二條第一款具體的針對境外敵對勢力的要件有非常清楚的定義，這是立法院自己通過的法律，怎麼立法委員成了違法委員呢？來，黃次長，法治教育，給您20秒。"],["黃次長謀信：我們的確是在反滲透法有對境外敵對勢力做一個立法性的定義，什麼叫境外敵對勢力？包括交戰、對峙，或者是主張以武力來……"],["吳委員思瑤：非和平手段。"],["黃次長謀信：對，這個當然就會是我們的反滲透法所定義的境外敵對勢力。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以不管政治立場是什麼，不管你的政黨是什麼，立法委員就要恪遵中華民國的法律，更何況這是立法委員自己立的法，立委不要成為違法的委員。請看下一頁，立法委員成為違法委員了嗎？去衝北檢、衝北院，請問集遊法第六條規範的是什麼？常次，是禁制區？"],["黃次長謀信：就是有關於五院跟法院所在地區或周邊設施是禁止集會的，除非有例外規定，要不然是禁止集會的。"],["吳委員思瑤：集遊法第六條規範了集會遊行禁制區的四種樣態，第一種就是重要的國家機關，包括總統府、司法院、考試院、行政院，但是立法院不算，因為立法院秉持民意，所以我們是歡迎大家來立法院表達你的政治立場，不同的意見都可以，所以第一類是政府機關；第二類是重要的交通設施，譬如說機場、港口是禁制區；第三類是軍事設施，在重要的軍事設施不可以集會遊行；第四類就是駐外使館，對不對？因為我們要保護駐外使館的權益，包括國際組織的駐臺機構，也都是集遊法第六條所規範的集會遊行禁制區。","好，集遊法是誰通過的？是立法院通過的，是立法院修法的，請立法委員不要成為違法委員。我今天還聽說在野黨的黨主席說他認為集遊法是惡法所以要修，如果針對第六條要修，大家真的可以討論，但如果是為了方便讓個別的政黨鬥臭司法、施壓司法、消費司法，要開放法院、地檢署或是司法院能夠成為集遊的開放區，我認為真的要深思，現在法院、地檢署是禁制區，兩位同意透過修法讓大家未來都可以為了個案來抗議嗎？你們的意見是什麼？來，我請問副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：司法院是反對的，最主要是因為司法院是人民來近用司法的場域，所以不適合開放。"],["吳委員思瑤：那法務部呢？地檢署被包圍。"],["黃次長謀信：基本上也是不宜，因為這涉及到地檢署跟法院的莊嚴性，另外也有可能對個案承辦檢察官或法官造成心理上的強制。"],["吳委員思瑤：會形成壓力，所以為了捍衛司法的獨立公正，我們都不宜草率地去修集遊法讓北檢、北院或司法院成為可以集會遊行的場域，我真的認為要慎重，理由你們剛剛都說了。但是如果是立法院，我們就非常歡迎，因為立法院從過去到現在，甚至世界各國的立法院、國會周遭都是合法可以讓大家來表達不同意見的場域，包括臺灣也是。","好，我再講下一個，立法委員不要成為違法委員，在這週末就要上凱道了，我要再次地呼籲，我們國家有法規，犯罪就是犯罪，違法就是違法，民主不容造假，不管是賄選，不管是作票，不管是罷免案的偽造連署，都是違法行為，如果立法委員上凱道是去挺作弊，我想這真的是貽笑大方，也貽笑國際。","今天我們花了一點時間來做法治教育，接下來我們進入另一個主題，請看下一頁，最近有一場藍白領袖的高峰會，在會中有人提出要推司法改革，就是要法庭直播。請看下一頁，直播真的不是萬能，直播也解決不了所有的問題，確實2017年司改國是會議有決議，但它的決議是要先落實司法的透明跟友善，再逐步來開放法庭直播，這應當是當初司法國是會議一個完整的論述吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是我也找了資料，當時在司改國是會議中司法院有允諾要研議、提出開放法庭直播的草案，你們有進行嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，因為在司改國是會議期間這個部分是一個議題，所以司法院曾經做過一個非常周延的政策研討，我們委託學者專家就世界上重要的法治國家進行了一個法庭直播的研究案，之後我們也邀請了各方的……"],["吳委員思瑤：你要不要簡單分享一下幾個國際上重要的國家？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，就目前來看，在跟我們相近的歐陸國家中，事實審是沒有國家在開放的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["王副秘書長梅英：即使是在美國，他們有分聯邦跟邦，聯邦的法制原則上也都不開放。"],["吳委員思瑤：也沒有直播。"],["王副秘書長梅英：那是為什麼呢？以結論來講，特別是事實審的法庭直播，它對於法院的公正跟獨立性很容易造成侵害，是非常危險的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，謝謝您的簡要報告，所以您也說明了，司法院試圖努力去提草案，但是正因為我們做了這樣的研究，做了這樣的評估，包括去採擢世界各國的經驗，也衡酌臺灣的司法現況，所以你們採比較保留的態度，我認為是可以持續研議，既然有委員倡議，我們當然可以研議，但是直播不是萬能，我們還是有很多面向要考慮。","事實上，我也要替你們說一下，在司改國是會議之後，你們優先推動的司法資訊透明公開其實已經做了相關的改革、革新，譬如說2021年已經修了「法庭錄音錄影及其利用保存辦法」，那個時候因為疫情推了我們一把，所以除了軟硬體的建置外，相關辦法也已經有修了。好，下一頁，那您剛剛講了世界各國的經驗跟保留的意見，我們就來看臺灣，法官協會非常清楚的主張公開審判不等於法庭直播，大家要三思，必須考慮各類訴訟參與者面對媒體傳播所承受的心理壓力，是否會影響證人到庭作證的意願，被告是不是也會因為直播而面臨全民公審，導致司法的窒礙難行，甚至影響判決的公正性，所以必須妥適去權衡公開直播的公益性與訴訟參與者的基本權。一個是公益性，就是大家想要直播、想要透明、想要公開，但另外一邊是訴訟當事者，他才是這個案件的核心，他的基本權益是不容去戕害的，所以法官協會的意見都告訴我們還要再三思。","事實上，你們的預算現在也提出解凍案了，這次司法院預算被凍結的金額是史上最高的一次，其實在2017年司改國是會議之後就已經有人替你們試算了，如果各級法院事實審要法庭直播的話，成本是非常高的，不管是自建直播系統或是採用租賃的系統，那都是「億來億去」，有一個數字可以參考，就是如果用租賃的方式，像我們立法院直播這種用租賃的方式，如果以你們法院每年平均開庭五十七萬四千多次，事實審法庭有598間，可能就要593億！所以請要推動的委員三思，國家能夠來負擔這樣的成本嗎？","請看最後一頁，有違個資法的保障，將不利於事實的調查，而且有違無罪推定的原則，恐怕會影響法官的心證，基於這些理由，我今天再一次透過我的質詢，我想我們可以持續研議，但是直播不能解決所有的問題，直播不是萬能，立法委員也不要一直以為直播就萬歲、直播就萬能，在司法的領域上，我認為這個是要深思熟慮的，公開透明不等於全程直播，要能夠做到司法的近用、友善、透明、公開，我們持續在其他的制度配套來推動。好，我們一起加油，辛苦了！謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請羅智強委員代理主席，他來了嗎？他剛剛已經有跟我說好了，沒關係，那我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時9分）","繼續開會（11時14分）"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：有請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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我不好意思說是包裝是真的也很專業但食安專家 腎臟科 毒物科的專家 法律的碩士但是要真的要把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情而且要明食相符在這種狀況 台灣食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多署長"},{"start":282.147,"end":309.734,"text":"如果整個衛福部食藥署你上任的時候你的觀察你覺得台灣面臨的這個食安的挑戰有哪些呢好 謝謝這是不是請署長好 那署長你來回答好了謝謝委員的提問我首先針對剛剛委員提到的寒川水廢水排水的這個計畫裡面做一點點的回應那上面寫的"},{"start":310.774,"end":335.429,"text":"的確像是學者當老師在教同學的時候覺得我們需要給他更多的期待把我們知道的東西從科學的依據這是政府的委外報告對政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民說你無知所以這邊我們非常非常虛心的接受委員這樣的指導我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變學者跟當官員不一樣那是你學者時候寫的好"},{"start":337.191,"end":356.311,"text":"謝謝委員給我一點點空間你覺得台灣的食安問題你自己從接任到現在面臨的挑戰有哪些食品安全的議題裡面我稍微說明一下最大的議題是任何一個食品安全議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題"},{"start":357.592,"end":380.06,"text":"所以在標定一個特定議題的過程中我們就是會食品安全的風險分析會導入你知道過去的食品安全的議題都是接避者揭發的幾乎都是接避者所以我上一次質詢問你食品也是藥品也是所以是接避者主動去揭發然後才產生問題然後你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管"},{"start":382.656,"end":384.781,"text":"過去是這樣子 但我認為我認為江志剛署長有能力不應該只是這樣子"},{"start":390.764,"end":415.623,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的提點因為食安的管制其實在食安五環到現在五環2.0它是全面性的建構接避者是其中一但事實上我們的團隊行政團隊主動去查查中央地方的合作的檢驗其實跟整個產業鏈所謂的公司協力自主規制我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈接"},{"start":417.093,"end":433.143,"text":"更重要的事情是業者之間的工協會他們發揮了很重要的功能達到了我們努力的地方你在新聞稿上面有講了你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講說像班克列酸 諾羅病毒 仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害這種生物性危害蘇丹虹 農藥殘留等化學性危害你們都要進行控管但是我要告訴你說這種議題歷史已經翻頁了"},{"start":440.748,"end":445.39,"text":"我們不要總是一直停留在過去政府要深刻的反省主動去發現問題而且解決我們當初的食安五環我們登錄制度都認為說能夠達到預警的效果然後可以主動發現問題然後政府就可以達到風險控管事實上"},{"start":457.737,"end":477.169,"text":"都沒有運作出來而且都是接避者然後事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題那食藥署的過去都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳台灣的食品安全如果是這樣子的話這樣的管理方式的話會不斷的重演那我們現在在這裡就是說我在這裡要問署長你有沒有吃零食的習慣"},{"start":478.781,"end":496.11,"text":"署長有很少啦 我這個健康取向這個齁 過年期間人家送我們很多家家戶戶大概是人手一包有沒有吃過這種零食 核桃 核桃大家都有吃過喔 簡體制的包裝 來"},{"start":498.803,"end":514.424,"text":"但是也有合格輸入有這個代理商的這一包兩三百元這一包一百元我們去蝦皮上網購了然後呢伴手禮在夜市在網路隨手買得到"},{"start":515.385,"end":535.872,"text":"那我為什麼要講這個事情因為在2月3號我們辦公室發了公文給你們食藥署要求去查明大量的網路這個販售未辦理輸入產品的資訊申報未辦理查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃除了嚴重造成國人健康風險而且已經違反了食安法請貴屬詳查要求他下架而且我們去文來講說30天內"},{"start":543.254,"end":567.693,"text":"把你開罰的狀況來告訴我們回報一下結果你們的公文回復是這樣子啦你們去查買了六件的確就有一件發現添加不許可的這個食品添加物然後呢最後你們又講說這是電商平台所以你們叫地方政府自己去依法查查好像這件事情你就沒了好像就沒了"},{"start":570.315,"end":582.447,"text":"我們在講是因為立委辦公室出門叫你查立委舉一個舉一件產品就馬上通通都是然後呢 到底有沒有下架有沒有開罰"},{"start":584.666,"end":607.691,"text":"這邊跟委員做進一步報告新疆紙皮烤核桃炒本味當初這個也非常感謝委員給我們指導跟給我們機會能夠快速的了解了解之後我們在我們檢舉的時候你還沒上任但你回文是一個多月以後3月14號才公文回覆我們所以照理說也應該開罰了有沒有開罰"},{"start":609.912,"end":631.117,"text":"有的 我們後續呢開罰誰我們因為查查的過程當中呢標示的結果五件不符合規定所以我們因此有兩件不是標示不符合規定喔未查驗沒有代理商在這種狀況裡面他是違反很多法律不是只有標示喔還不只是標示喔同時呢我們就積極的就裁處了裁處誰啦"},{"start":637.539,"end":645.023,"text":"這個採取的是進口的部分我們又採取了六萬塊錢那衛生在網路電商上你們到底是罰誰跟委員報告現在網路電商的部分我們面對都現在用你們六件是去實體店鋪買的嗎"},{"start":653.289,"end":661.196,"text":"呃我們是用網路平台架構的對那你網路平台架構我問你說你處罰誰啊你處分的對象是誰為什麼一直都講不出來這個部分呢對於電商的部分我們只能說告訴他有違規的所以沒有處分電商"},{"start":669.415,"end":692.473,"text":"然後也沒有處分廠商廠商有對廠商電商有提供廠商的資料給你採取嗎對所以我們在這個部分就採取了部分我現在在問你平台下架電商的部分現在網路上是不是還可以買到為辦理輸入產品資訊申報查驗的新疆紙皮烤核桃"},{"start":693.676,"end":712.812,"text":"還是不是可以繼續買這個報告委員我們這個持續跟這個平台只要有違規的關鍵字的部分都請他在二四小時能下架這個我們前幾天才買的蝦皮繼續在賣而且大量你點進去大家使用蝦皮現在馬上新疆紙皮烤核桃馬上全部都是"},{"start":713.613,"end":734.827,"text":"都沒有查驗登記沒有台灣未符合台灣相關法令你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的不允許添加的有許可添加的也搞不好有的超標為了今天的質詢我還打開吃了一下吃了以後覺得很噁心但是我還是吃了喝了三杯水但是我要講說我不是要講這個"},{"start":736.482,"end":757.164,"text":"主角於邊境今天邊境淪陷了長驅直入沒有主角於邊境這一件事而且電商這種中國違法販賣的食品整個網路上通通都是然後邊境"},{"start":758.171,"end":772.358,"text":"喔 不要忘了這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫 你看這個已售出 來兩萬包 已售出兩萬包 已售出幾百包 已售出左下角3.8萬包台灣人"},{"start":775.9,"end":788.768,"text":"大家瘋狂的買啊在電商上瘋狂的買江志剛署長掌管的食藥署你說有檢舉你就叫他下架沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎"},{"start":792.201,"end":810.105,"text":"沒有檢舉我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲所以現在我們爬到你們有人工智慧在爬書然後有下架還會這樣子這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁來你再去看叫大家現場蝦皮再打開保證裡面還一堆我們隨時積極的我們會隨時關鍵字會沒有勾起好沒關係那你這樣子的話一個月處分幾件"},{"start":818.257,"end":845.684,"text":"他這裡你處分多少你說你們關鍵字然後再管理所以特別我們最近的財閥有點兇所以財閥兇的情形之下來啦多兇啊你都告訴我們到底是多兇賣到下下叫的中國產品多少有毒物質台灣人已經吃下肚而台灣的三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高對台灣人的健康風險有多嚴重"},{"start":846.884,"end":874.936,"text":"這個有符合食品衛生法裡面第30條的規定嗎有報官查驗嗎有經過邊境的這個把關嗎已經長驅直入了長驅直入了而且不是只有線上欸欸這個實體店家都有滿山滿谷 滿坑滿谷都是中國食品而且小孩子最愛的我們還買了剛才那是大人最愛的現在是小孩最愛的這麼多"},{"start":879.4,"end":905.271,"text":"太多了 我也不曉得要拿多出來全部都是小孩的 全部都是小孩的小孩的 電商就買得到的 滿坑滿谷給小孩吃的零食中國來的 沒有檢驗 沒有查驗沒有進口商 沒有受台灣法律安全規範的而且沒有政府在管理的"},{"start":906.791,"end":916.736,"text":"從透過網購、郵購甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入台灣沒有邊境把關了沒有邊境把關"},{"start":918.499,"end":943.588,"text":"所以署長為什麼要講這件事情是因為不要打高空不要唱高調這個事情你把這件事情管好就功德無量真的食品安全的風險管控在哪裡在生活當中而這個在夜市實體店面就在賣不用到網路所以到底是不知道還是不想做"},{"start":944.848,"end":962.981,"text":"還是你們跟你們無關我不好意思說這是裝睡的人叫不醒因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人叫不醒啦那因為江署長三刀流的不可多得的人才我就相信你不是叫不醒的人"},{"start":964.022,"end":972.91,"text":"所以署長你有沒有去逛過夜市 你有後市場抽驗 後市場檢查過嗎食藥署有預算進行輿情監測有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫然後有這個你們講的導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫還有食品大數據的智能監控及風險偵測預警研究"},{"start":990.748,"end":996.842,"text":"千萬百萬然後這種東西你告訴我說你們通通沒有在管然後有這些預算"},{"start":998.3,"end":1025.272,"text":"然後呢其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉在夜市裡面夜市裡面太多太多中國違反違法的零食商品在地方政府都沒有反應上來你們都無知嗎所以在這種狀況裡面我是要講電商就算了我們大家上網就知道你知道實體店面離我們距離最近的在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":1026.112,"end":1034.197,"text":"你知道嗎 立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品最近的在哪裡 你知道嗎這個要委員提示你不知道齁 在樓下立法院的福利社前面都有在賣 來"},{"start":1045.751,"end":1068.758,"text":"然後呢店家還說JP很新鮮製造日期2025年你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便更不用說到台灣以後夜市市場或是大家都很好賣因為台灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃所以我們有邊境嗎邊境有把關嗎有阻絕於境外嗎"},{"start":1073.686,"end":1086.496,"text":"已經長驅直入 而且變像話所以在這裡隨便都數萬包在賣然後在這種 你剛剛驗出來你們自己驗出來 甜味濟糖精環擠雞帶黃溪胺酸鈉"},{"start":1090.663,"end":1119.519,"text":"一規定都要退運一規定都要銷毀你開了一張罰單你還讓他繼續賣然後你是覺得長輩的肝汗腎代謝功能都可以全台灣的都沒有代謝症候群了嗎這個就是為什麼我們要我們的肝汗腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢更不要講喔這不是單一事件當 去年我記得林次長有說"},{"start":1120.965,"end":1132.854,"text":"辣平糖啦 魔芋爽啦在你們禁止這個以前我都還記得我的小孩也拿一個紅紅汽汽的魔芋爽回來吃我一看就說這很恐怖就他說很好吃所以這些未經中國 中國來的"},{"start":1140.276,"end":1158.875,"text":"未經查驗的 沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角早就充斥在全台灣的民眾的生活當中所以歷史翻了這麼多頁 新的課題永遠在這裡政府 政府要承擔起這個責任啊 署長署長"},{"start":1161.269,"end":1177.727,"text":"三刀流人才 應該不是立委跟你講這麼想的對啦這個食藥署除了你以外 其他人都是舊的從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代再做到賴清德時代食藥署很多人都是三朝四朝五朝元老了啦他們喔"},{"start":1180.785,"end":1188.808,"text":"我不好意思說太難聽啦你署長沒有上警發條下面的人絕對不會上警發條然後國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面不是一個署長很厲害有那麼多改變"},{"start":1199.687,"end":1216.576,"text":"我現在提醒你是務實一點讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的從生活的所有每一項讓我們的風險降低一點少一點這個就是最務實的做法"},{"start":1218.674,"end":1229.501,"text":"謝謝委員 委員特別提到風險能夠降低那我們一定會基於這個 希望能夠趨近移臨 臨風險很困難你剛才下面的人給你唸的稿子 你們什麼爬蟲啦然後關鍵字啦 那些都沒在做也沒用啦他跟你虛偽 跟你說 你拿來這裡回答立委馬上要打槍啊 馬上上網 馬上蝦皮 馬上去點"},{"start":1245.48,"end":1265.574,"text":"幾萬包 幾萬包 還在 還在你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎完全都一籌莫展嗎對不對不要再講那種官方 官槍官吊 官方的標準回答不要讓你下面的人蒙蔽了你啊我簡單的就是這麼說好 繼續喔 我要繼續看喔我們繼續追喔謝謝委員 謝謝林淑芬委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時43分）謝謝主席，是不是請部長和署長？"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長你好。因為署長是大家頗委以重任，你和臺大醫院吳明賢院長都稱他是不可多得的三刀流人才，腎臟科醫師、毒物藥品專業，還具有法律碩士學位，的確是三刀流。署長就任時也一直在強調，強化邊境的查驗，我們有幾點其實真的是想要討論一下，就是署長以前也接受過政府的委託做報告，有一篇叫「含氚廢水排放後之食品安全影響研析及風險溝通」，這幾年署長在風險溝通上，包括剛才的答詢中顯然看起來是很專業。但是再怎麼專業，看到你的報告以後有幾個態度上的問題，特別要跟署長就教，我是希望這件事情可以溝通，因為你主持的這一個委託報告寫的內容是講，以食品添加物為例，當消費者在包裝上看到一連串不熟悉的化學成分時，往往會自動聯想到這些成分可能對健康有害。然而，這種擔憂往往源自於知識的缺乏，而非基於科學的風險評估。你先控訴說，看到一連串標示不明的化學成分會恐懼是來自於知識的缺乏，可是你的但書又說，只要消費者不食用過量，並且身體的代謝功能正常，這不會對身體健康構成威脅。前面說人民可能知識不足，後面說科學的風險評估變項還很多，那我要提醒你的是，希望這一套不要用在立法院，因為這件事情茲事體大。","你在控訴人民知識缺乏的時候，不要忘了你所加的但書是必須身體代謝功能正常，而我要提醒你一件事情，根據衛福部的數據，臺灣人40歲以上有將近四成罹患三高，20到64歲（64歲以上更高）每四人就有一人罹患代謝症候群，而且三高的自知率（民眾對自己罹患三高有沒有自我感知），20歲以上對高血壓的自知率是68%，對血糖的自知率是66%，對血脂的自知率是23%。其實2023年你們也發表，有47%、將近五成的人不知道自己有代謝症候群，而且都不知道自己有三高。所以在這種狀況之下，當你在對人民說知識缺乏的時候，其實你要知道，人民並不是知識缺乏，而是相反的，人民知道自己可能有三高，所以對於太多的添加物是有擔心的。","OK，署長，我要溝通的是這個態度。對於你的報告的態度、你的說法，其實我不太能接受。","我要就教部長和署長的是，一直以來，食藥署的問題在哪裡？部長為食藥署包裝了一個形象非常專業，的確也很專業，我不好意思說是包裝，是真的也很專業，但食安專家、腎臟科和毒物科專家、法律碩士，要真的把它做好並不是一件很容易的事情，而且要名實相副。在這種狀況下，臺灣在食品安全上所面臨的挑戰很多，署長，以整個衛福部食藥署而言，根據你上任時的觀察，你覺得臺灣面臨的食安挑戰有哪些呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，是不是請署長來回答？"],["林委員淑芬：好，署長來回答好了。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提問。首先針對剛才委員提到的含氚廢水排放的計畫做一點點回應，上面寫得的確像是學者、老師在教同學的時候，覺得我們需要給他更多的期待，把我們知道的東西，從科學依據……"],["林委員淑芬：這是政府的委外報告……"],["姜署長至剛：對、對、對，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：政府不能用這種字眼來教訓人民，說你無知。"],["姜署長至剛：所以我們非常、非常虛心地接受委員這樣的指導，我們在態度上面會有很大的轉變，我們希望……"],["林委員淑芬：當學者跟當官員不一樣，那是你當學者的時候寫的。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員給我一點點空間。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！那你覺得有關臺灣的食安問題，從你接任到現在，面臨的挑戰有哪些？"],["姜署長至剛：在食品安全的議題裡面，我稍微說明一下，最大的議題是任何一個食品安全的議題一定要先標定現在要問什麼問題，在標定特定議題的過程中，我們就會導入食品安全的風險分析。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道，過去食品安全的議題都是揭弊者揭發的耶！"],["姜署長至剛：對，這個……"],["林委員淑芬：幾乎都是揭弊者！所以我上次質詢就問你，食品也是，藥品也是，都是揭弊者主動去揭發才產生問題，然後你們才去做風險評估、才去做風險控管，過去是這樣子。但我認為姜至剛署長有能力，不應該只是這樣子！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提點，因為食安的管制從食安五環到現在五環2.0，它是全面性的建構，揭弊者是其中之一，但事實上我們的行政團隊主動去查察、中央和地方合作檢驗，跟整個產業鏈所謂的公私協力、自主規制，我們希望能夠跟所有的業者做很好的鏈結。更重要的事情是，業者之間的公協會發揮了很重要的功能，都達到了我們努力的地方。"],["林委員淑芬：好，這些你在新聞稿上面已經講了，你甚至在新聞稿上面也有講到，像邦克列酸、諾羅病毒、仙人掌桿菌等生物性危害，還有蘇丹紅、農藥殘留等化學性危害，你們都要進行控管。但是我要告訴你，這種議題歷史已經翻頁了，我們不要一直停留在過去。政府要深刻地反省，主動去發現問題、解決問題！當初食安五環的登錄制度都認為能夠達到預警的效果、可以主動發現問題，然後政府就可以做到風險控管，事實上都沒有運作出來，而且都是揭弊者提出，事情發生以後才發現整個制度有問題。食藥署過去的做法都是頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳，臺灣的食品安全如果是這樣的管理方式，事情會不斷重演！","我在這裡要問署長，你有沒有吃零食的習慣？"],["姜署長至剛：很少啦！我是健康取向。"],["林委員淑芬：我手上這種零食過年期間人家送我們很多，家家戶戶大概人手一包，你有沒有吃過？核桃！大家都有吃過，有這種簡體字的包裝，但是也有這種有代理商的。有代理商的這包兩、三百元，另一包一百元，是我們去蝦皮上網購的。這種伴手禮在夜市、在網路隨手都買得到。我為什麼要講這個事情？因為2月3日我們辦公室發公文給食藥署，要求查明網路大量販賣未辦理輸入產品資訊申報、未辦理查驗的「新疆紙皮烤核桃」，除嚴重造成國人健康風險，並已違反食安法，請貴署詳查，要求它下架。而且我們去文還請你們在30天內把開罰狀況告訴我們，回報一下。結果你們的回復是：你們去查、買了6件，的確發現其中一件添加了不得添加的食品添加物，最後還說因為這是電商平台，所以你們要叫地方政府自己去依法查察。好像這件事情就沒了！","本席會講這件事情是因為，立委辦公室出文叫你查，立委舉一件產品就馬上統統都是，然後呢？到底有沒有下架？有沒有開罰？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步報告，有關「新疆紙皮烤核桃（草本味）」，當初也非常感謝委員給我們指導，讓我們有機會能夠快速地瞭解，瞭解之後我們在網路平台……"],["林委員淑芬：我們檢舉的時候，你還沒上任，但你回文是一個多月以後，3月14日才回文給我們，所以照理說也應該開罰了，有沒有開罰？"],["姜署長至剛：有的，我們後續在網路平台採購6件……"],["林委員淑芬：開罰誰？"],["姜署長至剛：因為查察的過程當中，發現標示有5件不符合規定，因此有2件……"],["林委員淑芬：不是標示不符合規定喔！未查驗、沒有代理商，在這種狀況裡面，它是違反很多法令的！"],["姜署長至剛：對，違反食安法……"],["林委員淑芬：不是只有標示喔！"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：還不只是標示喔！"],["姜署長至剛：有違反食安法的部分，同時我們就積極裁處了。"],["林委員淑芬：裁處誰啦！"],["姜署長至剛：裁處的是進口的部分，我們裁處了6萬塊錢，衛生局也持續……"],["林委員淑芬：在網路電商上，你們到底是罰誰？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，現在網路電商的部分，我們面對的都是用人工智慧去爬蟲……"],["林委員淑芬：你們6件是去實體店鋪買的嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們是用網路平台價購的。"],["林委員淑芬：那我就是問你處罰誰啊！你處分的對象是誰？為什麼一直都講不出來？"],["姜署長至剛：對於電商的部分，我們只能告訴他有違規，請他下架……"],["林委員淑芬：所以沒有處分電商？也沒有處分廠商？"],["姜署長至剛：廠商有。對廠商、對廠商！"],["林委員淑芬：對廠商？"],["姜署長至剛：是的，有處分。"],["林委員淑芬：電商有提供廠商的資料給你裁處嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：對，所以我們在裁處的部分，電商是平台下架。"],["林委員淑芬：現在是不是還可以在網路上買到未辦理輸入產品資訊申報、查驗的「新疆紙皮烤核桃」？是不是可以繼續買到？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們持續請這個平台，只要有違規的關鍵字，都請他在24小時內下架。"],["林委員淑芬：這個是我們前幾天才買的，蝦皮繼續在賣，而且大量在賣。你可以點進去看，大家現在使用蝦皮搜尋「新疆紙皮烤核桃」，馬上看到全部都是，都是沒有查驗登記，未符合臺灣相關法令的，你們買六件就有一件是含了很恐怖的、不允許添加的，有許可添加的也搞不好會超標。為了今天的質詢，我還打開吃了一下，吃了以後覺得很噁心，但是我還是吃了，喝了3杯水，但我不是要講這個，阻絕於邊境，今天邊境淪陷了，長驅直入，沒有阻絕於邊境這件事，而且電商販賣違法的中國食品，整個網路上通通都是，然後邊境……不要忘了，這些東西還賣到嚇嚇叫，你看這個已售出2萬包、已售出幾百包，簡報左下角的已售出3.8萬包，臺灣人瘋狂的買啊！在電商平臺上瘋狂的買。姜至剛署長掌管的食藥署，你說有檢舉就叫他下架，沒檢舉的就不下架了嗎？有在管嗎？有政府在管嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，沒有檢舉的話，我們隨時都用人工智慧的關鍵字在爬蟲，所以現在我們爬的很厲害……"],["林委員淑芬：你們有人工智慧在爬梳？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["林委員淑芬：然後有下架，還會這樣子？這是我們前兩天才打開的網頁。來，你再去看，叫大家現場把蝦皮打開，保證裡面還有一堆，關鍵字……"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，我們隨時會積極的針對關鍵字登記，持續的來爬……"],["林委員淑芬：你有勾稽……好，沒關係，這樣子的話，你們一個月處分幾件？這裡你處分了多少件？你說你們用關鍵字在管理……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們最近的裁罰有點凶，所以在裁罰凶的情形之下……"],["林委員淑芬：多凶啊？你就告訴我們，到底是多凶？"],["姜署長至剛：我們希望能夠輔導代替裁罰，希望他們能夠糾正……"],["林委員淑芬：賣到嚇嚇叫的中國產品，有多少有毒物質讓臺灣人已經吃下肚？臺灣三高代謝症候群的人口數有多高？對臺灣人的健康風險有多嚴重？這有符合食品衛生法第三十條的規定嗎？有報關查驗嗎？有經過邊境的把關嗎？這已經長驅直入了，而且不是只有線上，實體店家都有，滿山滿谷、滿坑滿谷都是中國食品，而且是小孩子最愛的，我們還買了……剛才那是大人最愛的，現在是小孩最愛的，有這麼多，太多了！我也不曉得要拿什麼出來，全部都是小孩的零食，電商就買得到，滿坑滿谷都是給小孩吃的零食，中國來的零食沒有檢驗、沒有查驗、沒有進口商、沒有受臺灣法律安全規範，而且沒有政府在管理，都透過網購、郵購，甚至在夜市的實體店面長驅直入，臺灣沒有邊境把關了。所以署長，本席為什麼講這件事情？是因為不要打高空、不要唱高調，你把這件事情管好就功德無量，真的！食品安全的風險管控在哪裡？在生活當中，這個在夜市實體店面就在賣，不用到網路，所以你們到底是不知道還是不想做？還是跟你們無關？我不好意思說，這是裝睡的人叫不醒，因為過去的食藥署的確都是裝睡的人，叫不醒啦！姜署長是三刀流不可多得的人才，我相信你不是叫不醒的人。","署長，你有沒有去逛過夜市？你有後市場抽驗、後市場檢查過嗎？食藥署有預算進行輿情監測，有食安網路大數據剖析應用與風險管控及處理應變計畫，然後有你們講的，導入網路爬蟲及風險智能監控的研發計畫，還有食品大數據智能監控暨風險偵測預警研究，千萬百萬，然後這種東西……你告訴我你們通通沒有在管，然後有這些預算，其實去年有人就跟地方的衛生局檢舉，在夜市裡面有太多、太多中國違法的零食商品，地方政府都沒有反映上來，你們都無知嗎？所以在這種狀況裡面，電商就算了，大家上網就知道，你知道實體店面，離我們最近的在哪裡，你知道嗎？你知道嗎？離立法院最近的實體店面也在販賣這一種違法的中國食品，最近的在哪裡，你知道嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這個要委員提示，附近比較不熟。"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道喔！在樓下。立法院福利社前面都有在賣，店家還說這一批很新鮮，製造日期2025年，你問他說怎麼進口這種非法的中國食品？他說飛機、海運、小三通都很方便，更不用說到臺灣以後，夜市、市場或是大家都很好賣，因為臺灣人很喜歡吃很香的核桃，所以我們有邊境嗎？邊境有把關嗎？有阻絕於境外嗎？已經長驅直入，而且變笑話，所以在這裡隨便就是數萬包在賣。你們自己驗出來含甜味劑、糖精及環己基代磺醯胺酸鈉，依規定都要退運、依規定都要銷毀，你開了一張罰單，你還讓他繼續賣？你是覺得長輩的肝和腎代謝功能都可以，全臺灣的人都沒有代謝症候群了嗎？這個就是為什麼我們要讓我們的肝和腎來承受政府對食品安全邊境把關不利的這一種風險呢？更不要講這不是單一事件。去年我記得林次長有說蠟瓶糖啦！魔芋爽啦！在你們禁止這個以前，我都還記得我的小孩也拿了一包「紅吱吱」的魔芋爽回來吃，我一看就說這麼恐怖，但他說很好吃。所以這些中國來的、未經查驗的、沒有核准輸入的食品都是冰山一角，早就充斥在全臺灣民眾的生活當中，歷史翻了這麼多頁，新的課題永遠在這裡，署長，政府要承擔起這個責任啊！","署長，「三刀流人才」應該不是立委跟你反映後，你才會想到的，食藥署除了你以外，其他人都是舊的，從馬英九時代做到蔡英文時代，再做到賴清德時代，食藥署很多人都是三朝、四朝、五朝元老了啦！他們喔！我不好意思說太難聽啦！署長，你沒有上緊發條，下面的人絕對不會上緊發條，讓國人的健康風險永遠暴露在高風險裡面，不是一個很厲害的署長就有辦法改變，我現在提醒你要務實一點，讓人民的生活真的從小的到老的、從生活中所有的每一項，讓我們的風險降低一點、少一點，就是最務實的作法。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。委員特別提到風險能夠降低，我們一定會基於這個，希望能夠趨近於零，零風險很困難、不可能，但是我們會儘量來努力。"],["林委員淑芬：剛才下面的人給你念的稿子，什麼爬蟲啦、關鍵字啦，那些都是沒有在做，也沒有效啦！他跟你虛與委蛇，跟你說的，你拿來這裡回答立委，馬上被打槍啊！馬上上網、馬上蝦皮、馬上去點，幾萬包、幾萬包，還在、還在！你們都沒有一個霹靂的手段可以阻絕嗎？完全都一籌莫展嗎？對不對？不要再講那種官腔官調，用官方的標準來回答，不要讓下面的人蒙蔽了你啊！我簡單地就是這麼說。好，我會繼續看喔！我們繼續追喔！謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。"],["主席（邱委員鎮軍代）：謝謝林淑芬委員。現在休息6分鐘。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來我們邀請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5a1684c2ac3d097a8c89945c4c3ca21e17970360821fa2dae1c9e0eb0984d72d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:54:33 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我請何安慧主委好 我請陳主委"},{"start":18.201,"end":21.702,"text":"主委好今天是我們核安會的業務報告那我也很仔細看了你們的報告的內容我覺得相當的重要除了一般國人較為熟知的核能安全以外也包含了核能科技我們核能的產業價值還有核能的產業應用那我們也關心因為我們整個政府中央政府各個部會的預算都有受到立法院的刪除跟凍結"},{"start":46.227,"end":60.474,"text":"那我特別關心的是我們河岸會今年度的關於委辦費因為有一個他有一個預算的刪除是叫做通刪那委辦費的部分我們是被通刪了10%這大概是1167萬那這個部分是刪除不是凍結所以我比較關心的是那會影響到我們哪些的委辦項目因為去年在審查預算的時候我也在交文會嘛"},{"start":74.281,"end":94.134,"text":"那當時對於委辦計畫很多的委員是有意見那事實上我看了一下我們的委辦計畫的內容其實非常的重要而且很多是跟我們的核能產業價值應用甚至民生醫療等等是有所相關的所以首先我想請教在我們委辦業務之中"},{"start":97.076,"end":110.587,"text":"這個衛星元件開發輻射驗證環境建構這個預算它是跟我們的衛星太空產業有所相關嗎有沒有誰可以說明是相關的請可以說明一下這是什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":114.435,"end":143.352,"text":"報告委員這個衛星研究院開發級輻射驗證環境建構主要是跟太空計畫是相關的因為現在低軌道衛星非常的流行那低軌道因為有太空輻射所以我們就要研究說某些組件或某些元件他要具備有抗輻射的能力或者是這些元件是怎麼去驗證他到底有沒有抗輻射能力這個我們的衛星元件開發級輻射驗證環境建構主要就是在做這方面的工作"},{"start":143.632,"end":164.918,"text":"所以這是我們跟太空中心還有幾個單位一起合作的台灣太空輻射環境驗測聯盟這一個計劃嗎?我們今年度的預算是這個計劃預算是我看了一下大概一千多萬所以我們今年業務是繼續進行那受到通商的部分我們怎麼樣來調配呢?"},{"start":167.399,"end":195.574,"text":"報告委員這個像所謂的委辦計劃如果說到通山有些是如果設備要更新他可能就是會往後延因為預算如果不夠的話他就會往後延或是有些計劃的一些辦理的譬如專家學者的場次啊可能就會受到影響所以但是我們在被通山的狀況下我們還是能盡力的讓在這個有限的資源下盡量的去達到我們原先的目標"},{"start":196.414,"end":200.118,"text":"好 這個太空衛星以外我們委辦業務也有半導體光源設備自主能力建構這個計畫就是 請說明是 這個因為我們現在國內的半導體的光源設備主要都是從國外進口那個金額是非常龐大的"},{"start":213.493,"end":234.559,"text":"所以在這個半導體光源就是EUV這一塊我們希望導入這個電漿的技術那讓國內有這個技術當我們在國外採購或是什麼引進的時候我們就可以有一些底氣我們大概就可以了解他們的技術然後未來是希望能夠朝向我們自己能夠發展研發來做"},{"start":236.559,"end":244.487,"text":"就跟半導體有相關的技術這也很重要我覺得也要多向國人來說明再來跟我們民生放射性物質有所相關這其實就是醫療驗測相關的啦能不能說明一下"},{"start":248.717,"end":271.969,"text":"那報告委員那第三個民生放射性物質的這個設備的防護我們是委託學者能夠配就是因為我們工業上的應用業者也很多所以我們就是希望透過委辦的一個方式那學者來到到業者限地去做一些輔導然後去做一個教育訓練那讓他們在使用這些"},{"start":273.05,"end":279.294,"text":"游離輻射設備的時候的一些觀念可以再建立起來所以在這一邊我們的計畫還是有在執行但是有受到這個統三的這一塊我們有去調整一些那個服務的一個量體這樣"},{"start":289.261,"end":296.005,"text":"好 謝謝第四項是民生商品它含天然放射性物質的例如說現在有負離子床墊啊 驗測等等這個計畫能否說明對 這個因為就是來自於韓國曾經發生負離子床墊的一個問題那我們有波及到所以我們在這一塊是"},{"start":306.252,"end":332.877,"text":"建立這個因為民生用品很多那它涉及的這些負離子商品其實是最大的危害是冬氣所以在這一些的冬氣量測或者是一些技術標定上的一些研究技術我們就是在這個計畫裡頭去研究去建立的那確實也計畫還是有在執行但是一些研發的一些進度或者是里程碑有一點點的去做一個調整好 謝謝"},{"start":334.577,"end":358.205,"text":"各位 我們核安會的業務當中核能安全重中之重但是我們也跟民生產業都有所相關例如太空產業 醫療 醫農工等等所以我希望我們還是要跟國人以及我們立法院的委員多加來說明希望我們的預算是能夠讓我們的科研人才可以有一個比較好的環境放手的去執行 好不好"},{"start":359.125,"end":373.975,"text":"好最後我要關心的是因為去年的審查預算我也關心過也就是關於我們和安會的成員的性別比例那同時呢因為這也是更加關切的是我們全台灣核能人才的性別比例那目前我們和安會成員66%是男性女性是33%那我看了一下國際原子能總數"},{"start":380.819,"end":390.985,"text":"他有去做一個統計在全球的核能勞動力也就是核能人才當中女性只有25%男性佔了75%那所以這其實是一個全球性的現象當然我們目前手邊是沒有台灣全台灣的這個性別的統計我看了一下原子能總署最近發布了兩個新的計劃給這個河南會做參考第一個是瑪麗菊研究生講學金計劃她是針對學生"},{"start":409.116,"end":424.178,"text":"就是只要是我們研讀核能相關的碩士的學生提供獎學金還有實習的機會第二個是針對在職的已經在任職的核能領域的女性的專業人士他提供訪問計畫"},{"start":425.299,"end":428.722,"text":"所以第一個我是希望我們核安會可以將這個計畫多多的推介給我們台灣的核能的女性研究人才第二個我認為我們也可以參考因為有跟你們討論過嘛我們盡力的來去提升在台灣核能的科研人才的性別平等好不好是的核安會也非常注重女性在這裡面的角色我們核安會女性的"},{"start":450.595,"end":469.94,"text":"比例是越來越高 但是主管的比例也有一些所以這方面我的趨勢下去的話 我相信我們是樂觀的而且我們非常鼓勵女性從事核能或核安方面的工作好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝吳佩儀委員 我們主委請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":544,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我請核安會主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：今天是核安會的業務報告，我也很仔細地看了你們報告的內容，我覺得相當地重要，除了一般國人較為熟知的核能安全以外，也包含了核能科技、核能的產業加值，還有核能的產業應用。我們也關心，因為整個中央政府各個部會的預算都有受到立法院的刪除跟凍結，我特地關心的是核安會今年度的委辦費，因為有一個預算的刪除是叫做統刪，委辦費的部分是被統刪了10%，大概是1,167萬，這個部分是刪除，不是凍結，所以我比較關心的是，這會影響到哪些委辦項目？","去年在審查預算的時候，我也在教文委員會，當時對於委辦計畫有很多委員是有意見的，事實上我看了一下，委辦計畫的內容其實非常重要，而且很多是跟我們核能產業加值應用，甚至是民生、醫療等等有所相關。所以首先我想請教，在你們的委辦業務之中，衛星元件開發及輻射驗證環境建構這個預算是跟我們的衛星、太空產業有所相關的嗎？有沒有誰可以說明？"],["陳主任委員明真：是相關的。"],["吳委員沛憶：請說明一下這是個什麼樣的計畫。"],["李組長綺思：報告委員，這個衛星元件開發及輻射驗證環境建構主要是跟太空計畫有關，因為現在低軌道衛星非常流行，低軌道因為有太空輻射，所以我們就要研究某些組件或某些元件要具備抗輻射的能力，或者是這些元件是怎麼去驗證它到底有沒有抗輻射的能力，我們的衛星元件開發及輻射驗證環境建構主要就是在做這方面的工作。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以這是你們跟太空中心還有幾個單位一起合作的臺灣太空輻射環境驗證聯盟的計畫嗎？"],["李組長綺思：是相關。"],["吳委員沛憶：你們今年度這個計畫的預算是……我看了一下，大概是一千多萬啦！今年的業務是繼續進行，那受到統刪的部分要怎麼調配呢？"],["李組長綺思：報告委員，像所有的委辦計畫如果受到統刪，有些如果是設備要更新，它可能就是往後延，因為預算如果不夠的話，它就會往後延或是有些計畫辦理的……譬如專家學者的場次可能就會受到影響，但是我們在被統刪的狀況下，我們還是要盡力地在有限的資源下盡量達到我們原先的目標。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，除了太空衛星以外，你們委辦業務也有半導體光源設備自主能力建構的計畫，請說明。"],["李組長綺思：因為我們現在國內半導體的光源設備主要都是從國外進口，金額是非常龐大的，所以這個半導體光源(EUV)這一塊，我們希望導入電漿的技術，讓國內有這個技術，當我們在國外採購或是要引進什麼的時候，我們就可以有一些底氣去瞭解他們的技術，未來是希望朝向自己能夠發展、研發去做。"],["吳委員沛憶：就是跟半導體有相關的技術，這也很重要，我覺得也要多向國人說明。再來是跟我們民生放射性物質有相關的，這其實就是醫療驗測相關的，能不能說明一下？"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，有關第三個民生放射性物質設備的防護，我們是委託學者能夠配合，就是因為我們工業上的應用，業者也很多，所以我們就是希望透過委辦的方式，請學者來到業者現地去做一些輔導，進行教育訓練，讓他們在使用這些游離輻射設備時的觀念可以建立起來，所以在這邊，我們的計畫還是有在執行，但是有受到統刪的這一塊，我們有去調整一些服務的量體。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝。第四項是民生商品含天然放射性物質的，例如現在有負離子床墊的驗測等等，這個計畫能否說明？"],["張組長淑君：對，這個是因為來自韓國曾經發生過負離子床墊的問題，我們也有波及到，所以我們在這一塊是建立這個……因為民生用品很多，它涉及的負離子商品其實危害最大的是氡氣，所以有關氡氣量測或者是一些技術標定上的研究技術，我們就是在這個計畫去研究、去建立的，確實計畫還是有在執行，但是一些研發的進度或者是里程碑有去做一點點的調整。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。主委，在核安會的業務當中，核能安全是重中之重，但是也跟民生產業都有所相關，例如太空產業、醫、農、工等等。所以我希望我們還是要跟國人以及立法院的委員多加說明，希望我們的預算能夠讓我們的科研人才可以有一個比較好的環境放手去執行，好不好？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，最後我要關心的是，因為去年審查預算，我也關心過，也就是關於核安會成員的性別比例，同時因為我更加關切的是全臺灣核能人才的性別比例，目前核安會成員66%是男性，女性是33%，我看了一下國際原子能總署有做一個統計，在全球的核能勞動力，也就是核能人才當中，女性只有25%，男性占了75%，所以這其實是一個全球性的現象，當然我們目前手邊沒有全臺灣的性別統計。我看了一下原子能總署最近發布了兩個新的計畫，給核安會做參考，第一個是瑪麗居禮研究生獎學金計畫，它是針對學生，主要是為研讀核能相關的碩士學生提供獎學金還有實習的機會，第二個是針對已經在任職的核能領域女性專業人士提供訪問計畫，所以第一個，我希望核安會可以將這個計畫多多推薦給臺灣核能的女性研究人才，第二個，我認為我們也可以參考，也有跟你們討論過，我們盡力地來提升在臺灣核能科研人才的性別平等，好不好？"],["陳主任委員明真：好，是的，核安會也非常注重女性在這裡面的角色，我們核安會女性的比例越來越高，擔任主管的比例也有一些，所以這方面以這個趨勢下去的話，我相信我們是樂觀的，而且我們非常鼓勵女性從事核能或核安方面的工作。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，主委請回，我們現在休息5分鐘。沛祥委員，不好意思，我剛剛有宣告，謝謝。","休息（11時2分）","繼續開會（11時8分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","我們接下來請林沛祥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e59b4c8920d35c963118c34ac1b6c981637970360821fa2daef27cb3eae2286e0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:50:58 - 10:59:55","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:50:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:59:55+08:00","duration":537,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.83659375,"end":3.5915937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6590937500000003,"end":4.519718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.77284375,"end":4.7897187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.806593750000001,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.01221875,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.197218750000005,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.90096875,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.47284375000001,"end":112.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.51534375000001,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.28721875000002,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.27721875,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.97346875000002,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.36096875,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.84596875000003,"end":211.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.86284375000002,"end":212.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.84159375000002,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.24159375000002,"end":245.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.38284375,"end":262.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.50471875,"end":283.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.76159375000003,"end":266.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.00846875,"end":279.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.63221875,"end":331.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.99596875000003,"end":390.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.05846875000003,"end":438.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.00034375,"end":450.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.20096875,"end":456.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.10721875,"end":465.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.57846875,"end":465.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.65846875000005,"end":470.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.55659375000005,"end":474.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.87659375000004,"end":477.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.69471875000005,"end":478.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.46659375,"end":480.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.47909375,"end":481.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.91346875000005,"end":495.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.01346875,"end":490.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.05909375000005,"end":495.31221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.34596875000005,"end":495.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.66659375,"end":499.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.78409375,"end":500.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.42534375,"end":509.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.82471875000005,"end":532.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.52159375,"end":533.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.3015937499999,"end":536.58846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.82,"end":18.795,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請署長好 署長好今天因為其實都是在談論這個租屋的正義那其實租屋的正義包括非常多的面向所以前面我想要先討論一下最近在我的選區有一個非常紅的日本飯糰店"},{"start":20.336,"end":38.228,"text":"那這個飯糰店他紅到什麼樣子呢就是這幾天大家為了要聲援這個老闆所以每天都去排隊支持他們那他們的週分是什麼其實也跟這個租屋的合約有點關係那當然其實大家就是在討論說這個租屋族啊"},{"start":39.108,"end":58.482,"text":"就是到底房東可不可以隨意的講約那當然合約都是白紙黑字寫得非常清楚那再加上他們是租店面嘛所以是商用的契約那這個商用的租賃裡面當然就是回歸民事的這個就本來就是雙方協議不可以隨意講租那不然就是叫民事的這個合約下去走"},{"start":58.942,"end":74.513,"text":"那可是呢還是有非常多的選民因此來跟我反應因為其實他們平常是租屋族然後他們遇到的狀況差不多很多都是說第一個就是要準備要續約之前房東就跟他說要跟他漲租不然就不能續約"},{"start":75.914,"end":90.541,"text":"那另外一种就是在合约期间当中可能他一次跟你住三年那他在第一年的时候就跟你说要随意的调涨那不然就是说之后也就不让你租了那这种情况其实屡见不鲜"},{"start":91.221,"end":112.674,"text":"那我想要问的是说其实在世界各国针对这个租赁其实都有蛮多的专访那我在这边举几个例子就是以美国加州来说就是如果房东现在要涨租那涨幅在10%以下房东必须要提前30天通知那如果你一次的涨幅超过10%必须要提前90天通知"},{"start":113.581,"end":141.678,"text":"就是他在调整的这个幅度跟他的时间都是有一个非常明确的规范的那英国也是看他的租期不同他的年如果是年租的话必须要在六个月以前通知六个月哦然后如果是月租就是必须要在提前一个月之前通知那纽西兰也是说你至少要在六十天之前就要书面通知如果你想要跟房客之间的契约有变化的话"},{"start":142.378,"end":165.757,"text":"那日本也是甚至日本是有一个借地借家法他们有一个非常明确的租赁专法里面是说如果房东跟房客之间他不想要再租给这个房客了必须要半年之前就已书面通知而且必须要写上非常明确的正当理由才不可以就是你才可以跟房客终止合约哦"},{"start":166.377,"end":190.979,"text":"所以相对国外其实有蛮多对于租屋族这些租屋的权益是有更明确的保障的但是在台湾好像租屋族都是无可挂牛必须要到处流浪那甚至我自己租的经验也非常多就是租了大概十年的房子那也都是必须要看房东脸色看他要不要租给你看他要不要涨租看他要不要有一些更多的条件的变化"},{"start":191.599,"end":204.987,"text":"那所以我在這邊是希望說不知道國土署針對這種房東跟房客之間的權益的保障可不可以有進一步的研擬進一步的建議甚至未來有沒有機會我們也來擬一部租賃的專法呢"},{"start":206.284,"end":230.886,"text":"根文報告這個部分因為在部裡面它屬於地政司的業務是不是好地政司委員好那有關於我們一般租屋族的住宅租賃的部分其實委員剛也提到在我們定型化契約裡面已經有規定到租屋約期間不能任意漲租的規定那如果有相關問題這個包含我們的消保單位都可以來協助民眾來做一個處理那委員剛剛有提到一個部分就是"},{"start":231.186,"end":259.045,"text":"外有些對於住宅租賃的部分也有提前如果你要解除租約終止租約前房東要在多久以前去通知房客包含說可能他租期的長短不一樣可能會有不同的做法其實我們有收集到這些相關的資訊那其實我們在做一個租約的一個規定的一個檢討的時候其實我們現在也把它收集我們會做一個滾動的一個檢討來更保障那一個民眾的一個權益"},{"start":259.465,"end":282.952,"text":"那你們目前是打算要修在哪個現在可能在定型化契約的部分的應記載不得記載事項裡面看可不可以先去做一個檢討的規定不過因為其實這個部分的話我們也在收集相關的租屋族有沒有相關的問題因為我們那個規定也剛修過所以可能會在下一次的通盤的部分的話一起來做一個處理"},{"start":283.632,"end":308.107,"text":"好谢谢说明那可能就是未来会在这个住宅租赁定型化契约应记载及不得记载事项跟或者是有没有机会在消费者保护法里面有更多的权益的保障那如果可以的话希望下一次通盘前逃的时候再把这部分就是包括提前多久然后必须要告知然后还有就是这个明确的书面的理由这些都要写上去"},{"start":308.567,"end":331.289,"text":"好 谢谢好 那再来继续讲这个社宅这个社宅其实我们也讲了很多次了那我觉得最大的问题包括因为其实我从在当议员的时候就不断地在讲社宅的轮候制那甚至是还有这个租金的一定比例的透明化然后还有就是可以入住的条件资格等等其实都讨论了非常多那我觉得最大的问题还是成量不足"},{"start":332.079,"end":352.622,"text":"那成量不足這個問題實在是現在都是各地必須要一起來努力啦因為以高雄來說因為我們市政府非常配合就是我們努力幫忙找地然後努力幫忙協調在地的鄰里的關係然後努力幫忙協調在地的一些使用的方式所以呢目前其實高雄的進度都還算蠻順利的"},{"start":353.703,"end":370.498,"text":"那我這個覺得當然要跟各縣市再努力再協調啦只有再努力再協調才可以把全台灣各縣市真的有辦法空出來的地全部找出來來蓋社宅嘛那這個是目前要達到存量最大的目標那我算了一下喔因為"},{"start":371.278,"end":389.711,"text":"應該是說我們還是要再繼續往前看怎麼說呢因為以目前我們內政部門目標8年20萬戶目前其實最大就是包括把興建中以絕標還有在規劃中的全部加起來就是大概18萬戶啦我必須老實說嘛目前就是這樣那如果達到存量的比例大概就是1.9%"},{"start":391.132,"end":412.955,"text":"那其實以國外來說我還是要講一下先進國家裡面的涉災成量的比例是非常非常高以歐洲國家來說荷蘭是29%然後英國16%然後丹麥19%芬蘭18%瑞典18%那以亞洲來說當然亞洲相對低但是以日本來說涉災的成量也有5%那我們是1.9"},{"start":413.996,"end":436.862,"text":"而且我是加上新建規劃然後決標全部加起來全部就是只有1.9也就是說當我們存量不足的時候我剛剛提的那些制度問題包括可不可以趕快輪候制啊可不可以趕快把資格條件放寬這些都很難往下討論因為我每次講完我前面那些我都已經討論過了包括資格條件可不可以再寬一點啊然後趕快讓輪候制進場"},{"start":439.062,"end":465.038,"text":"然後甚至是全國有一個統一的登記的平台這些大家才不會抽籤抽籤率這麼低嘛可是討論到之後每次國土署都說存量不足真的就是沒有辦法往下走所以我在想是不是這個存量的問題可不可以優先的解決然後目標再往前放18萬戶還是太少啊全國如果我們最後真的全部完成了1.9%耶亞洲最低都有5%是"},{"start":466.667,"end":484.923,"text":"我們其實也是努力因為即使到下一階段我們大概也是到2.5%2.5%就是我們認定的低標啦我們起碼要先努力往那個低標邁進那這個低標25萬戶都出現了那這個就可以去談有沒有這一個"},{"start":486.023,"end":501.331,"text":"全國具體的一個輪候的統一登記量輪候的否則就會像我們剛剛所講我可能為了自己的生活圈需求我就一直在重複登記而且重複登記越多其實大家要實現的輪候會越困難這也是我們在考慮的一個問題所以這我們還是會努力的往這個"},{"start":506.694,"end":532.889,"text":"達到2.5%這樣的一個存量的目標先來邁進好謝謝署長那這個就是一起加油那因為其實這個輪候制我真的也講很久了啦所以如果可以我知道有一些地方也開始試辦那如果可以的話其實還是可以先並行然後之後的話我們就慢慢都朝向輪候的方式去改因為確實歐洲的成效還不錯那我們也都看到這個是我們可以遵循的方向好謝謝署長"},{"start":536.347,"end":536.368,"text":"喔!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時51分）謝謝主席，我們請署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：署長好。今天都是在談論租屋正義，其實租屋正義包括非常多的面向，所以前面我想要先討論一下，最近在我的選區有一個非常紅的日本飯糰店，這個飯糰店紅到什麼樣子呢？這幾天大家為了要聲援老闆，所以每天都去排隊支持他們，而他們的糾紛是什麼？其實也跟租屋合約有點關係，大家都在討論租屋族的房東到底可不可以隨意漲約。當然合約都是白紙黑字，寫得非常清楚，再加上他們是租店面，所以是商用的契約，商用的租賃當然就是回歸民事，這個本來就是雙方協議，不可以隨意漲租，不然就是照民事的合約走。可是還是有非常多的選民因此來跟我反應，其實他們平常是租屋族，他們遇到的狀況差不多，第一個就是準備續約之前，房東就跟他說要漲租，不然就不能續約；另外一種就是在合約期間當中，可能他一次跟你租3年，但是他在第1年的時候就隨意調漲，不然之後也不讓你租了，這種情況其實屢見不鮮。我想要問的是，世界各國針對租賃其實都有蠻多的專法，我在這邊舉幾個例子，以美國加州來說，如果房東現在要漲租，漲幅在10%以下，房東必須要提前30天通知，如果一次的漲幅超過10%，必須要提前90天通知，調漲幅度跟時間都有一個非常明確的規範。英國也是看租期的不同，如果是年租，必須要在六個月以前通知，六個月喔！如果是月租，必須要提前一個月之前通知。紐西蘭也是，如果你想要跟房客之間的契約有變化，至少在60天之前就要書面通知。日本也是，甚至日本是有一個借地借家法，他們有一個非常明確的租賃專法，裡面也提到如果房東跟房客之間，房東不想要再租給這個房客了，必須要半年之前就以書面通知，而且必須要寫上非常明確的正當理由，才可以跟房客終止合約。相對國外其實有蠻多對租屋族租屋權益更明確的保障，但是在臺灣，好像租屋族都是無殼蝸牛，必須要到處流浪。甚至我自己租屋的經驗也非常多，租了大概10年的房子，也都是必須要看房東臉色，看他要不要租給你、看他要不要漲租、看他要不要有更多條件的變化。","我不知道國土署針對這種房東跟房客之間權益的保障，可不可以進一步的研擬、進一步的建議，甚至未來有沒有機會我們也來擬一部租賃的專法？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這個部分因為在部裡面是屬於地政司的業務，是不是請地政司向委員說明？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["林代理司長家正：委員好。有關於一般租屋族住宅租賃的部分，其實委員剛剛也提到，在我們的定型化契約裡面，已經有規定租約期間不能任意漲租的規定。"],["黃委員捷：是的。"],["林代理司長家正：如果有相關的問題，包含我們的消保單位都可以協助民眾處理。委員剛剛有提到一個部分，就是國外有些對於住宅租賃的部分也要提前通知，如果你要解除租約、終止租約前，房東要在多久以前通知房客，包含他租期的長短不一樣，可能會有不同的作法。其實我們也有蒐集到這些相關的資訊，我們在檢討租約的規定時，現在也有把它蒐集，我們會做滾動的檢討，以更加保障民眾的權益。"],["黃委員捷：你們目前是打算要修在哪個……"],["林代理司長家正：現在可能在定型化契約的部分，應記載不得記載事項裡面，看可不可以先去做一個檢討的規定，不過這個部分我們也在蒐集租屋族有沒有相關的問題，因為我們規定也剛修過，所以可能會在下一次一起通盤處理。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝說明。可能就是未來會在住宅租賃定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項，或者是有沒有機會在消費者保護法裡面有更多權益的保障，如果可以，希望下一次通盤檢討的時候，再把這部分包括提前多久必須要告知，還有明確的書面理由，這些都要寫上去，謝謝。","再來，繼續講社宅，其實我們也講了很多次了，其實我在當議員的時候，就不斷在講社宅的輪候制，甚至是租金一定比例的透明化，還有可以入住的條件、資格等等，其實都討論得非常多。我覺得最大問題還是存量不足，存量不足這個問題實在是各地必須要一起努力。以高雄來說，因為我們市政府非常配合，我們努力幫忙找地，努力幫忙協調在地鄰里的關係，努力幫忙協調在地的一些使用方式，所以目前其實高雄的進度都還算蠻順利的。我覺得這個當然要跟各縣市再努力、再協調，只有再努力、再協調，才可以把全臺灣各縣市真的有辦法空出來的地全部找出來蓋社宅，這個是目前要達到存量最大的目標。我算了一下，應該是說我們還是要再繼續往前看，怎麼說呢？因為目前內政部的目標是8年20萬戶，包括把興建中、已決標，還有在規劃中的全部加起來就是大概18萬戶，我必須老實說，目前就是這樣，達到存量的比例大概就是1.9%。","其實以國外來說，我還是要講一下，先進國家社宅存量的比例非常非常高，以歐洲國家來說，荷蘭是29%，英國16%，丹麥19%，芬蘭18%，瑞典18%；以亞洲來說，當然亞洲相對低，但是以日本來說，社宅的存量也有5%，而我們是1.9%，而且是加上興建、規劃、決標全部加起來，全部就是只有1.9%。當我們存量不足的時候，我剛剛提的那些制度問題，包括可不可以趕快輪候制，可不可以趕快把資格條件放寬，這些都很難往下討論。因為我每次講完，前面那些我都已經討論過了，包括資格條件可不可以再寬一點，趕快讓輪候制進場，甚至是全國有一個統一的登記平臺，大家才不會抽籤率這麼低，可是討論到最後，每次國土署都說存量不足，真的就是沒有辦法往下走。所以我在想這個存量的問題可不可以優先解決，然後目標再往前放，18萬戶還是太少，如果我們全國最後真的全部完成了，1.9%，亞洲最低都有5%。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們其實也是努力，因為即使到下一階段，我們大概也是到2.5%，2.5%就是我們認定的低標，我們起碼要先努力往那個低標邁進，這個低標25萬戶都出現了，就可以去談有沒有全國具體統一登記的輪候，否則就會像我們剛剛所講的，我可能為了自己的生活圈需求，我就一直在重複登記。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：重複登記越多，其實大家要實現的輪候會越困難。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：這也是我們在考慮的一個問題，所以我們還是會努力往達到2.5%這樣一個存量的目標先來邁進。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長。這個就是一起加油，因為輪候制其實我真的也講很久了，我知道有一些地方也開始試辦，如果可以的話，其實還是可以先並行，之後我們就慢慢都朝向輪候的方式去改，因為確實歐洲的成效還不錯，我們也都看到這個是我們可以遵循的方向。謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5d69ebe2aa31c1b3518c34ac1b6c981637970360821fa2dae7fa58c9f4dc8bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:40:06 - 10:50:50","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:40:06+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:50:50+08:00","duration":644,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.14409375,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.69659375,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.709093750000001,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.72596875,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.844093750000001,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.548468750000001,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.82659375,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.864093750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.218468750000003,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.04471875,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.06159375,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.11221875,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.883468750000002,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.91721875,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.31284375,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.20284375,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.83346875,"end":49.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.01471875,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.596593750000004,"end":54.284093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.672218750000006,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.64659375,"end":58.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.63784375,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.101593750000006,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":64.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.22346875000001,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.34971875000001,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.68721875,"end":69.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.42096875,"end":71.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.81721875000001,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.70721875000001,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.49596875,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.35221875,"end":77.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.75721875,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.23784375000001,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.27159375000001,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.43159375,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.48221875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.89534375000001,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.59096875,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.08846875,"end":93.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.90659375,"end":95.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.10034375000001,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":101.07846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.43284375,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.50846875,"end":106.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.30971875,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.65971875000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.56221875000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.76034375,"end":113.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.97096875000001,"end":119.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.00409375000001,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.94909375,"end":136.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.73596875,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.00971875000002,"end":138.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.13596875000002,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.74346875,"end":139.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.51909375,"end":144.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.80596875,"end":151.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.42096875000001,"end":150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請你休息一下吳署長有請委員好市長"},{"start":14.336,"end":20.901,"text":"師父,在今天探討的主宰法裡面,我們要自己探討的,應該是教育那一部分因為我覺得這個規定當中,像剛才張鋒祿早前說的,你的弱勢拿高一點,現在不一定40%,因為我們做公司的薪金就是10%"},{"start":40.914,"end":45.056,"text":"開始以為不足不足,到現在40%嘛40%的時候,今天有幾個啊我們當然說我們也提高到50%啦但是在這裡面,我所擔憂的就是說我們弱勢要照顧,年輕人我們也要照顧"},{"start":64.258,"end":69.662,"text":"這是最重要的,說到那裡,像高麗就好了,高麗在北京,我們已經在派友中的美女的眼前,安寮已經發飽了,但是還未能脫,到現在還健康的時候,安寮當時的眼前也不知道,"},{"start":88.715,"end":112.136,"text":"但是在這個過程當中,嘉義市有很多年輕人都回鄉回來也有年輕人看到嘉義市好大好做生意,對著他的抱負他也很愛在嘉外,嘉義來生活所以在這個生活圈當中,年輕人像剛才這樣說的"},{"start":114.198,"end":125.947,"text":"年輕人會排擠到,是不是這樣來請市長,你覺得如何?這就是我剛才所報告,原主席的抽籤,在大概6歲的部分,他目前規定40%的數字,已經實質上已經是破50%了,就是說市長已經有救了"},{"start":135.154,"end":141.579,"text":"她可以抽兩遍所以她的機率就比較高嘛是是,所以妳如果夠50%以上我們歡樂的她就是會衝到60%到70%這樣原來我們這個屬於比較年輕人還是說她當她有工作,當她有工作開始在做她有需要的時候,結果她的族群是非常大但是她的重簽率會越來越多越來越多,她原來這個弱勢族群的重簽率就是"},{"start":161.634,"end":172.364,"text":"已經差不多三倍,一半後的三倍你如果叫我管的時候,他的仲欠率會更高所以這邊會越來越高,我想對這個年輕人來說因為現在房價上升,他剛好剛好有收入結果我沒辦法買房子的時候,我當需要做房子的時候結果這部分的仲欠率會更高這樣我想對他來說,他會更失望,我想這就是我們這個政治中"},{"start":186.977,"end":194.081,"text":"救出一個病情的時候我們必須要考慮不一樣的族群的族群裡面的一個病情的問題對啦 因為署長說實在的我們每一個族群我們都要去照顧我認為說你的照顧當中我們都說到弱勢 弱勢竟然要照顧問題但是最前進"},{"start":213.453,"end":224.228,"text":"我們想要去社會住宅,就是基礎正義,才去社會住宅嘛,是不是這樣?是嘛,在這個過程當中,我覺得每一個官司的訴求"},{"start":229.506,"end":234.25,"text":"賣一定是一樣像嘉義我剛才跟你談到這個也很大觀的再來以來嘉義市未來鐵路高架開始漸漸完成的時候要聽到他們附近的"},{"start":248.485,"end":267.485,"text":"所以在這裏面,我們也有可能,我們的地方政府把你們的中央用專案來處理,也有這個可能啊你有沒有想到,因為第二次現在,有的去鐵路高架因為一本身,可以說住在車頭附近的"},{"start":271.989,"end":290.834,"text":"比較都是在台中所在的醫醫比較很弱勢的就是這個問題的存在所以我剛才說的是每一個官司每一個官司的訴求跟需要是會不一樣的"},{"start":292.114,"end":304.537,"text":"市長你知不知道我自己的需要可以跟你說的這個問題可以來頂跟中央因為這件事來彌補一下來做專案有可能嗎?市長你講一下因為你像現在的鐵路哥計劃的部分它一定做成"},{"start":317.18,"end":332.516,"text":"某一些程度的拆遷這我過去在台南有處理過一樣的問題所以台南那時候用的是安置住宅是用安置住宅但是這不是每一個地方政府都可以一定用這樣但是我想可以比較好的建議是它有點類似可以找"},{"start":336.219,"end":364.471,"text":"國有的阿好就是說類似用都更的方式我去另外辦一個叫做安置出租住宅它有可能是地基幹的也有可能是做一個六宗十宗那就叫安置出租住宅那是兩岸用類似都更的方式我想加以其來公有地也有但是對這個公有地就是說它不一定是當局一定要做這個提供的部分但是你就可以讓類似用透過都更一直部分的"},{"start":365.231,"end":379.503,"text":"是一百萬可以做土地的出分但是一百萬它的工藝性設施就是做安置出租住宅這樣的話呢可以提供給這裡的因為這個鐵路局計劃它沒有地方大 現在沒有地方大它可以來這裡做我想這也是一個改革的方式對啦 因為蘇丁"},{"start":384.187,"end":388.331,"text":"因為我們要發展到要想到我們北省地方需要什麼問題可以來解決如果等到之後還要來解決要來找可能也不會有開車過到本埤那裡不會有啦在這裡本省跟你談到在這裡我們地方跟中央"},{"start":405.647,"end":407.87,"text":"會有一個合作的機會再來本縣要跟你談到的就是說我們嘉義市的北港路有個案的幾位來賓在最近你們有來動議"},{"start":421.323,"end":423.364,"text":"他們來的時候,未來你們要怎麼協助?地方有需要什麼嗎?因為我覺得這是自己的人所擁有的地方,因為我覺得有自己的故事說出來的故事"},{"start":440.894,"end":446.137,"text":"可以加一條而已所以說這是對教育市政局的發展跟經濟有很大的關係但是我也認為我們的中央可以繼續合作對應因為我說實在的我不愛分藍綠也不愛分東白只是對應的發展再做好不然有時候說實在的"},{"start":468.07,"end":470.591,"text":"你們做到老大,風險到老大,這樣就不好了,所以在這裡,你有需要補充,我們自己是北京路的大型生育會發展,協助什麼,請你回答一下"},{"start":484.798,"end":505.882,"text":"感謝 委員已經 蘇哈 幫我們問很多遍了我相信這案因為拖太久了他伺服過去已經拖了十多年都不好處理了處理的過程中 內容一直變更 都是大幅度的變更所以我們走向這三十位委員 覺得說他現在所作的內容 已經把十幾年前他提出來要做個人變更的理由 已經完全沒有了"},{"start":510.863,"end":536.45,"text":"所以...所以...但是呢 它剋錄到北京樓的這個...但是一定沒工的嘛 時空配件不一樣 當然...所以我可以告訴你 這個保安啊 原來是支持但是呢 因為你的廠所已經完全都沒工了所以退黨你 叫你對頭 會公開電纜你要對頭先開始做 第二 這是一個...交易管制 聯合的土地紀委所以過程中..."},{"start":537.41,"end":545.498,"text":"主席不好意思,我來你解釋一下你說嘉義縣市聯合作為作為,現在有一個國會聲音說嘉義縣如果不同意嘉義市做,嘉義市又不能做,是不是這樣?應該是說嘉義縣政府不管是在這個電影政府的公開電纜跟市委會的審查過程中,它可以標示意見"},{"start":562.509,"end":565.75,"text":"甚至到內政部的時候,他也可以標示意見對啦,是標示意見發展公家、大家相擁啦是是是你是說加以關,同意不同意齁來做先加日期的發展啦"},{"start":578.474,"end":592.868,"text":"當然中央的角色一定是說地方政府一定要聯合一定要合作你不可以說是互相抵制但是我們不可以忽略對方的需求啦我相信這是一定的嘛大家都好這樣給最祖國我們希望看到是這樣啦希望看到是這樣"},{"start":599.674,"end":605.899,"text":"抱歉,今天我要利用這個時間問候咖啡廳的發展,因為有很多百姓有時還沒了解,想說跟中央那樣,都沒辦法拿咖啡廳來想辦法,這樣就不好了在這裡本省也要拜託咖啡廳,因為咖啡廳的政府也有非常認真發表"},{"start":623.353,"end":627.018,"text":"我希望我們中央家庭保障 能夠自己去北京路這條路來完成 也能夠自己去做一個橋樑讓他們能夠更好地溝通 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":473,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時40分）主席，我們請署長，部長就休息一下。"],["主席：請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：署長，辛苦了。今天要來探討住宅法的修法，本席要跟你探討的應該是嘉義占大部分啦，因為我覺得在這個過程當中，像剛剛張宏陸召委所說的，弱勢租屋的比率提高，目前是40%，過去我們就是從10%開始的，後來覺得還是不足，一路修改到現在變成40%，今天有幾位同仁表示希望提高到50%啦！不過我比較擔憂的是，我們要照顧弱勢，但年輕人也要照顧啊，這是最重要的，說難聽一點，就以嘉義來說，嘉義的博愛跟友忠明年會完成，安寮也已經發包了，不過還沒有動土，在現在這個缺工的時候，安寮什麼時候能完成也不知道。不過在這個過程當中，嘉義市有很多年輕人返鄉了，也有年輕人看到嘉義市好住、好做生意，可以實現抱負，他們也很願意在嘉義生活，所以在這個生活圈當中，如果像剛才說的那樣，年輕族群可能會被排擠到，是不是這樣？請署長回答一下。"],["吳署長欣修：這就是我剛才所報告的，以現在的抽籤情況來說，弱勢部分目前的規定是40%，但實質上已經破50%了，事實上已經足夠了……"],["王委員美惠：因為他們可以抽兩次嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對，可以抽兩次。"],["王委員美惠：所以他們的機率就比較高嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以如果規定到50%以上，我們擔心的是可能會衝到60%、70%，這樣原本屬於年輕人或是剛剛有工作且需要居住在社宅的人，他們那個族群非常大，但他們的中籤率會越來越低。原本弱勢族群的中籤率差不多已經是一般戶的三倍了，如果再拉高，他的中籤率會更高，另外這邊就會越來越低。對於這些年輕人來說，因為現在的房價正高，他們又才剛開始有收入，還沒有辦法買房子，正需要租房子的時候，結果這部分的中籤率又比較低，對他們來說，他們會更加失望。我想這個政策如果要求取一個平衡，我們必須要考慮不同族群之間的平衡問題。"],["王委員美惠：對啦，署長，說實在的，對於每一個族群，我們都要去照顧，我覺得在照顧的時候我們都會提到弱勢，弱勢需要更多的照顧沒有錯，不過最開始我們會想要蓋社會住宅就是因為居住正義，因此才要蓋社會住宅，是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：在這個過程當中，我覺得每一個縣市的訴求不一定一樣，像嘉義，我剛才跟你探討的這部分有很大的關係。再來，嘉義市未來鐵路高架漸漸完成的時候，附近就會進行拆遷，我們地方政府有可能會跟中央用專案的方式處理，也有這個可能，你有沒有想到這個部分？因為嘉義市現在要進行鐵路高架相關工程，原本住在車站附近許多是向台糖租地的人，他們比較弱勢，所以就會有這個問題存在。這就是我剛才所說的，每一個縣市的訴求跟需求是不一樣的。署長，以嘉義的需求來說，我剛剛跟你談的這個問題，是不是可以地方跟中央針對這件事情媒合一下做個專案？有可能嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，現在鐵路高架化的部分已經造成某種程度的拆遷，我過去在臺南也處理過同樣的問題，臺南那時候用的是安置住宅，但不是每一個地方政府都可以用這樣的方式。我想比較好的建議是，它會有點類似，找國有的也好或類似用都更的方式，另外辦一個叫做安置出租住宅，有可能是短期間的，也有可能是租6年、10年，那個就叫安置出租住宅，那是另案用類似都更的方式來做。我想嘉義市內也有公有地，對這個公有地來說，不一定是要長久提供做這個使用，但是可以類似用透過都更的方式，一部分可以做土地處分，另一部分，它的公益性設施就做安置出租住宅，這樣可以提供給這些因為鐵路高架化而暫時沒有地方住的人來這邊租屋，我想這也是一個解決的方式。"],["王委員美惠：對啦，署長，我們要在問題還沒有發生之前就想到我們的百姓、地方需要什麼，然後去解決，如果等到問題出現之後才要來解決，要來找地，可能也來不及了！"],["吳署長欣修：對啦，那時候已經太慢了。"],["王委員美惠：火車過去才鳴笛就來不及了啦！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：本席跟你探討的這個問題，也希望我們地方跟中央有一個合作的機會。","再來，本席要跟你探討的就是嘉義市北港路的開發案，最近你們同意採取個案變更方式續審，未來你們要怎麼協助地方的需要？這是嘉義市人的期望，因為從高速公路嘉義交流道下來的北港路，可以說就只有這一條而已，所以這對嘉義市的整個發展跟經濟有很大的影響。我也希望我們中央可以再繼續協助地方，因為說實在的，我不想要分藍綠，也不想要分黨派，只是想要把地方的發展做好。但說實在的，有時候你們「做到流汗，被嫌到流涎」，這樣就不好了。在這裡要請問署長，對於我們嘉義市北港路區段徵收案的後續發展，你們要提供什麼協助？請你回答一下。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝，其實委員私下已經問我很多遍了，這個案子因為拖太久，嘉義市政府過去已經拖了十幾年都沒有好好處理，處理過程中它的內容也一直變更，而且都是大幅度的變更，也造成審查委員覺得現在要做的內容已經跟十幾年前提出來要做個案變更的理由完全不一樣了，但是因為考慮到北港路的……"],["王委員美惠：一定不同的嘛，時空背景不一樣，當然地方政府的作法也不一樣啊！"],["吳署長欣修：所以才會跟他們說，這個部分原則上我們是支持的，但是因為你的程序已經完全都不一樣了，所以退回去叫你從最前面的公開展覽開始，要從頭先開始做。第二，這是一個嘉義縣市聯合的都市計畫，所以過程中……"],["王委員美惠：對，署長不好意思，我跟你打岔一下。你說嘉義縣市聯合一起做的，現在有一個誤會的聲音，說嘉義縣如果不同意嘉義市做，嘉義市就不能做，是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：應該是說嘉義縣政府在地方政府的公開展覽跟市都委會的審查過程中，它可以表示意見，甚至到內政部的時候，它也可以表示意見。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！是表示意見，而發展是大家共同享用，不是嘉義縣同意不同意來造成嘉義市的發展……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，中央的角色一定是地方政府一定要聯合、一定要合作，不能互相抵制，但是講白一點，也不能忽略對方的需求，我相信這是一定的嘛！"],["王委員美惠：就像鄰居之間，大家都好，這樣互相照顧，發展是你也好，我也好，這樣啦！"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們希望看到的是這樣啦。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！署長不好意思，今天我要利用這個時間問到我們嘉義市的發展，因為有很多百姓有時候不了解，會認為中央怎麼這樣，都不替嘉義市想辦法，這樣就不好了。在這裡本席也要拜託署長，因為嘉義市政府也非常的認真努力，希望我們中央跟地方互相可以把嘉義市這一條北港路早日完成，也跟嘉義縣做一個橋梁，讓他們可以更好的溝通，以上。"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們會來協助，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：主席，不好意思，謝謝。"],["主席：沒關係，謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。","下一位我們請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5497051ec97b0dae6aab39e7ea9331c7ec2be5dfb0591b1bf2beb4618946eee9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:46:42 - 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棄保潛逃犯是在國外的能夠推估一個大概的數字嗎"},{"start":49.507,"end":64.704,"text":"報告委員事實上我們剛才有您提到有8000這個數字的時候我們私底下有去了解一下目前這個數據這個會期我並沒有任何所知大概我們搜尋到應該是網路上好像有一個記者就訪問"},{"start":65.925,"end":93.219,"text":"有私下管道去對那這個部分我們回去我們再做一個我們在這個可能外討論可能涉及到司法科跟國際科這部分我們沒有手上沒有現成的資料是不是容我們在後續提供其實這也是就是我一個質詢的點就是說事實上我也是根據新聞報導看到這個數字那我有跟貴部也有去詢問那你們沒有給我具體數字那我要講就是說"},{"start":95.302,"end":96.909,"text":"官方其實這個數字還是應該要有啦"},{"start":99.507,"end":126.683,"text":"我舉個例子我就問那個次長嘛對不對我們講不管說今天犯罪增防我們要去讓我們台灣的治安更好其實事前的各方面的跟犯罪有關的資訊掌握就很重要嘛對不對你資訊掌握到你才有後續的相關的所謂的治安作為嘛對不對犯罪打擊作為嘛所以我在想請教一下那個警政署啊警政署這邊就說"},{"start":129.571,"end":155.439,"text":"我們今天 你應該也不希望說我們有所謂的這個嫌犯 棄保檢討跑到國外去嘛 對不對也不希望嘛 對不對那有這樣的人 你們也希望把他抓回來嘛通緝犯把他抓回來即便他不管在境內或是出境都想把他抓回來嘛 對不對可是問題來了你對於他到底在跑到國外有多少人"},{"start":156.431,"end":179.719,"text":"你都無法掌握 那請問你怎麼期待我們把人抓回來呢對不對 我這樣講有沒有道理目前就是只要是不管院檢發布通緝之後那人就是不見了那人不見之後我們也會去追緝但是他有時候 比如說他如果沒有註銷 護照沒有註銷的情況下他可能可以直接用正式管道出去"},{"start":180.484,"end":199.438,"text":"那可能就會有記錄所以這當然就連到我們剛剛講的護照註銷的問題我也是因為這個洞我要開始講這件事那有的部分他可能會去做私下偷渡的管道那這個部分他逃掉了到底是不是做已經做這個私下的偷渡出去的這個部分確實可能我還是跟警政署說啦"},{"start":200.53,"end":220.312,"text":"無論如何你今天還是有一些你已經掌握到在國外的那數字你要公佈那你今天還不是很明確的你也可以公佈一個不是很明確或是說他到底在台灣還是在外面你不明確的那就是一個數字嘛各位相信你應該還是知道有一些已經跑出去的嘛"},{"start":221.554,"end":239.704,"text":"沒錯吧不過完全都不知道只要跑了就連有沒有在國內都不知道這個部分這個手邊沒有相關數字我相信我們這個國際科外面也有一些聯繫的管道對啊應該有辦法像委員講說可能也會有一些情緒上的初估的數字"},{"start":240.965,"end":256.269,"text":"可能農後再提供所以請把至少一個初估數字給我嘛因為這個東西說真的就是我剛剛跟次長講的嘛就是說你要先了解目前的我們到底這個所謂的不管是通緝犯逃到海外還是棄保潛逃的問題到底有多嚴重"},{"start":257.318,"end":268.063,"text":"我們接下來法治防治端我們才知道怎麼樣去包括立法包括行政作為包括政治作為我們才有辦法跟上那我想請教一下法務部今天我們討論刑事訴訟法116條之二的修法那關於註銷護照部分"},{"start":273.385,"end":295.073,"text":"它背後其實有關連另外一個我一直關切的法案就是棄保潛逃罪那我也是本屆第一個提案的委員那我想請教法務部去年徐錫陽次長曾經承諾在上個會期會把棄保潛逃罪送到立法院來我知道法務部是支持棄保潛逃罪的立法啦 對不對但是這個不版到行政院會"},{"start":296.752,"end":304.017,"text":"可是行政院現在確實一直都沒有送版本到立法院來那我想請問行政院有什麼疑慮嗎為什麼院版一直送不過來呢"},{"start":305.54,"end":307.1,"text":"我還是期許一下我們法務部"},{"start":332.466,"end":353.472,"text":"因為說實在的話我們立法委員當然是從人民的角度去提很多法案的一些建議但是如果有行政院版來做一個大家的參照比對甚至相互的來去精進的話我覺得立法工作室可以更周延那這個事情剛好跟黨派也沒關係嘛那都是為了防範這個增進我們治安的作為嘛"},{"start":354.092,"end":373.104,"text":"所以一直拖著我覺得感覺上我覺得行政院這一塊你雖然當然我知道有一些各種不一樣的困難但困難對行政機關不應該作為一個理由啦那你有那麼龐大的一個政府部門專家學者作為後盾的話你事實上你還是應該要努力提出一個願板出來"},{"start":374.065,"end":392.624,"text":"好不好 拜託再去努力一下否則我跟人家 現在都進到這個階段了其實我是有一點點遺憾啦就是說等到這個階段結果院版沒有等到我是個人是有點遺憾但是如果能夠跟行政院精進一下也麻煩部長 次長這邊再繼續溝通好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":393.985,"end":400.008,"text":"那我想請教說就制定棄保潛逃罪其實非常重要那根據110年到112年的數據毒品跟詐欺的棄保潛逃犯佔比是超過85%嘛對不對我看那個大宗你們給我的數據是這樣"},{"start":410.083,"end":427.122,"text":"那這個部分來看的話其實你就會發現推動氣保潛逃罪它跟反毒反詐其實也高度相關聯是牽連在一起所以因此如果說行政院跟法務部都可以再努力一點你們就所謂的政府端名字以執法的經驗端"},{"start":428.443,"end":456.768,"text":"能夠把這些所謂的這個棄保檢討罪的一個防治棄保檢討防治的東西把它入法變成一個更好的一個專業的依據的話那當然對於防治毒販跟詐欺犯就會有幫助嘛所以這是為什麼我一直在督促的一個緣故那比方說最近除了鍾文智之外竹北社級虐童的葉姓健身教練他也棄保檢討那這位葉教練甚至還沒有限制出境那現在查"},{"start":457.885,"end":474.336,"text":"逃出境外了對不對其實你就發現就牽著兩個問題嘛一個是說如果有法院可以主動註銷護照那可能就有可能阻止他跑出去那第二個就是還要回到警政署你像這個其實你就知道他在境外啦"},{"start":475.197,"end":503.019,"text":"就知道他跑掉了所以不會說完全不知道哪些人跑到國外但我知道有些人你沒辦法確定但你至少就可確定的部分我覺得行政機關還是有責任把這個數字提供給社會大眾讓我們知曦知曉那也才能夠方便我們行政機關做後續的一個防範那麼我相信這個七寶剪刀這個問題很嚴重啦我希望我們大家都在一起繼續努力好不好謝謝"},{"start":504.999,"end":505.02,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":584,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時46分）主席，有請法務部跟警政署。"],["主席：麻煩次長，還有警政署。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：首先還是先感謝莊瑞雄委員，我們一起為臺灣的治安打拚，一起來健全我們的法制，讓我們司法犯罪的制度能夠更嚴謹，不要讓犯人逃出司法訴究的範圍。首先我想先請問一下警政署，就警政署掌握，目前有多少通緝犯、棄保潛逃犯是在國外的，能夠推估一個大概的數字嗎？"],["蔡警政監坤益：報告委員，事實上剛才您提到有8,000人這個數字的時候，我們私底下有去了解一下，目前針對這個數據在這個會期並沒有任何索資，我們搜尋到應該是網路上好像有一個記者有去訪問，透過私下管道去……"],["羅委員智強：是。"],["蔡警政監坤益：這個部分我們回去再做一個……因為外逃的部分可能涉及到司法科跟國際科，這部分我們沒有手上沒有現成的資料，是不是容我們後續再提供？"],["羅委員智強：其實這也是我質詢的一個點，事實上我也是根據新聞報導看到這個數字，我有詢問貴部，但你們沒有給我具體數字。我要講的是其實官方還是應該要有這個數字，我舉個例子，我就問次長，我們講犯罪偵防，我們要讓臺灣的治安更好，其實事前各方面跟犯罪有關的資訊掌握就很重要，對不對？資訊有掌握到，你才有後續相關的治安作為、犯罪打擊作為，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：絕對是。"],["羅委員智強：所以我才想請教一下警政署，你應該也不希望我們有嫌犯棄保潛逃，跑到國外去，對不對？有這樣的人，你們也希望把他抓回來，把通緝犯抓回來。"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。"],["羅委員智強：不管他是在境內或是出境，你們都想把他抓回來，可是問題來了，對於到底跑到國外的有多少人你都無法掌握，那請問你怎麼期待我們把人抓回來呢？我這樣講有沒有道理？"],["蔡警政監坤益：目前只要是院、檢發布通緝之後，如果人就是不見了，在人不見之後，我們也會去追緝，但是有時候比如在他護照沒有註銷的情況下，他可能可以直接用正式管道出去，那可能就會有紀錄。"],["羅委員智強：所以這就連到我們剛剛講的護照註銷的問題，我也是因為這個洞，所以要開始講這件事嘛！"],["蔡警政監坤益：是，有的部分他可能會去用私下偷渡的管道，這個部分他逃掉了，到底是不是已經私下偷渡出去的這個部分，可能數字……"],["羅委員智強：我還是跟警政署說，無論如何還是有一些你已經掌握到在國外的，那個數字你要公布。至於你還不是很明確的部分，你也可以公布一個不是很明確的，或是他到底在臺灣還是在外面並不明確，那就是一個數字嘛！可是我相信你應該還是知道有一些已經跑出去的，沒錯吧？不會完全都不知道吧？只要跑了，就連有沒有在國內都不知道？"],["蔡警政監坤益：這個部分目前手邊沒有相關數字，我相信我們國際科外面也有一些聯繫的管道。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["蔡警政監坤益：應該有辦法像委員講的，可能也會有一些情資上粗估的數字，可能容後再提供。"],["羅委員智強：好，請至少把粗估數字給我，因為這個東西就是我剛剛跟次長講的，你要先了解目前不管是通緝犯逃到海外還是棄保潛逃的問題到底有多嚴重，接下來在法制、防制端，包括立法、行政作業、政策作業，我們才有辦法跟進、跟上。","我想請教一下法務部，今天我們討論刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二的修法，關於註銷護照的部分，這背後其實有關聯另外一個我一直關切的法案，就是棄保潛逃罪，我也是本屆第一個提案的委員。我想請教法務部，去年徐錫祥次長曾經承諾在上個會期會把棄保潛逃罪送到立法院來，我知道法務部是支持棄保潛逃罪的立法，對不對？雖然部版已經送到行政院會，可是行政院現在確實一直都沒有送版本到立法院來，我想請問行政院有什麼疑慮嗎？為什麼院版一直送不過來呢？"],["黃次長謀信：法務部當然支持棄保潛逃罪，所以我們有完成相關草案，事實上我們在108年8月、108年9月就已經送進行政院審議，行政院當然對這個法案有各種意見，甚至委員之間也有不同的版本，實在有一些爭議，行政院有行政院要考量的因素，所以目前還在行政院審議當中，還沒有送到大院。"],["羅委員智強：我還是期許一下法務部，因為說實在話，我們立法委員當然是從人民的角度去提很多法案的建議，但是如果有行政院版來做大家的參照比對，甚至相互精進的話，我覺得立法的工作可以更周延。這個事情剛好跟黨派也沒關係，都是為了增進我們的治安的作為，所以一直拖著，我覺得行政院這一塊……雖然我知道當然有各種不一樣的困難，但行政機關不應該將有困難作為一個理由，你有那麼龐大的政府部門、專家學者作為後盾，實際上你還是應該要努力提出一個院版出來，好不好？拜託再去努力一下，否則現在都進到這個階段了，其實我是有一點點遺憾，就是說等到這個階段，結果沒有等到院版，我個人是有一點遺憾，但是如果能夠跟行政院精進一下，也麻煩次長這邊再繼續溝通，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教，制定棄保潛逃罪其實非常重要，根據110年到112年的數據，毒品跟詐欺的棄保潛逃犯占比是超過85%，對不對？我看你們給我的數據是這樣，以這個部分來看的話，就會發現推動棄保潛逃罪跟反毒、反詐其實也高度相關聯。"],["黃次長謀信：當然。"],["羅委員智強：是牽連在一起的，因此，如果行政院跟法務部都可以再努力一點，你們就政府端執法的經驗，能夠把這些防制棄保潛逃的東西入法，變成一個更好、更專業的依據的話，當然對於防制毒犯跟詐欺犯就會有幫助嘛！這是為什麼我一直在督促的緣故，比方最近除了鍾文智之外，竹北涉及虐童的葉姓健身教練也棄保潛逃，這位葉教練甚至還沒有被限制出境，現在一查發現逃出境外了。其實你就會發現這牽涉到兩個問題，第一個是如果有法源可以主動註銷護照，那就有可能阻止他跑出去；第二個就是還要回到警政署，像這個其實你就知道他在境外了，就知道他跑掉了，所以不會完全不知道哪些人跑到國外，當然我知道有些人你沒辦法確定，但至少就可確定的部分，我覺得行政機關還是有責任把這個數字提供給社會大眾，讓我們知悉、知曉，也才方便行政機關做後續的防範。我相信棄保潛逃這個問題很嚴重，我希望我們大家都再一起繼續努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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不管高放那我不太曉得說整體的安全評估到底是還要談什麼"},{"start":218.767,"end":246.909,"text":"連最低層的我們要處理核廢料的問題都還解決不了那黃論何安那談到何安齁我其實要講我自己有一個親身經歷我在1999年921地震那一年我剛好服務的單位位在潮州斷層帶它是屏東縣北邊的一個學校但是921地震"},{"start":248.26,"end":271.295,"text":"竟然影響到我們的學校所有的教室 地板 籠體 軍列變成一個圍籠所以當時呢 還沒有遷校的概念也不得不就蓋了一個防震係數8.3的一個防震校園就原址重建"},{"start":274.636,"end":285.989,"text":"這麼遠921地震在南投造成很大的一個破壞但是位在屏東的我們就因為位在潮州斷層帶我們也被波及到"},{"start":287.455,"end":302.064,"text":"那我在想 大家都知道 河山場它就是位在恆春斷層帶我當時的學校還位在潮州斷層帶 離600公尺喔我們的河山場離恆春斷層帶幾公尺 主委還有差1.1公里1.1公里 我當時學校是600而且921地震那麼遠"},{"start":315.848,"end":319.531,"text":"那恆春斷層帶 過去有沒有發生過大地震很久以前有喔應該是 都會有啦 都會納入屏幕那請問一下 我們的核電廠能夠承受任何一次的風險嗎"},{"start":337.021,"end":359.66,"text":"跟委員報告,在福島事故之後,河岸會有要求台電公司就參照美國的做法然後進行河一二三場場址的一些地震危害跟耐震補強那目前已經針對電廠的安全停機系統跟燃料的冷卻用過燃料池的結構進行安全評估跟補強"},{"start":360.799,"end":382.379,"text":"那結果如何 非常安全目前都可以符合安全的要求可以承受多少核三廠按照美國的做法 程序做下來可以達到1.384G所以你的意思是說 你有信心來接受核三恢復運轉"},{"start":385.047,"end":409.389,"text":"耐震補強跟繼續運轉是另外一件事情來看因為只要店長在運轉就是要確保他安全我現在要講的是說其實在地方確實有一些聲音那這些聲音是怎麼創造出來的我不得而知但是他們是直指未來沒有回饋金"},{"start":411.112,"end":418.979,"text":"所以這個部分 5月17號停止運轉它其實還有25年的執行廚藝工作這25年 請教一下有沒有核廢料存放回饋金 主委有沒有 有嘛地方不知道啊 有人危言聳聽啊"},{"start":437.237,"end":462.436,"text":"這廚藝執行期間的25年他們放的是高放還是低放報告委員經濟部的後端基金委員會裡面有訂定相關規定高低放的那個所以高低放都放在那邊嘛對不對所以繼續執行核廢料存放回饋金我覺得我講這些是因為民眾都搞不清楚"},{"start":463.513,"end":481.614,"text":"我們常常講談核能這件事很重要的是社會溝通但是顯然我們的社會溝通做得不夠好所以呢在這個部分我們是希望說我們對核電也好核安也好民眾都是一知半解那希望核安會"},{"start":482.475,"end":486.819,"text":"經濟部能夠針對這一些部分還有民眾的疑慮要能夠提出回覆並且加強核能安全的宣導相關事宜那這個部分我也希望我能夠得到一個報告兩個星期內那這麼多不同的意見其實就是代表政府不夠透明所以在這個宣導跟教育的過程當中"},{"start":506.878,"end":520.788,"text":"我想我們很多的民眾都不太知道核能的危險程度跟未來地方何去何從所以這個部分我還是強烈要求先討論核廢如何處理再來重視核安問題好不好好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：所以你的意思是說，你有信心接受核三恢復運轉？"],["高組長斌：耐震補強跟繼續運轉要用另外一件事情來看，因為只要電廠在運轉就是要確保它的安全。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我現在要講的是，其實在地方確實有一些聲音，這些聲音是怎麼創造出來的，我不得而知，但是他們是直指未來沒有回饋金，所以這個部分，5月17號停止運轉，它其實還有25年的執行除役工作，請教一下，這25年有沒有核廢料存放回饋金？主委。"],["陳組長文泉：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有沒有？"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有嘛！但地方不知道啊！有人危言聳聽啊！除役執行期間的25年，他們放的高放還是低放？"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，經濟部的核後端基金委員會裡有訂定相關規定，高低放的的配置都有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所有的高低放都放在那邊，對不對？所以會繼續執行核廢料存放回饋金，我覺得我講這些是因為民眾都搞不清楚。我們常常講，談核能這件事很重要的是社會溝通，但是顯然我們的社會溝通做得不夠好，所以在這個部分我們不管是對核電也好、核安也好，民眾都是一知半解的，希望核安會、經濟部能夠針對這些部分還有民眾的疑慮提出回復，並且加強核能安全的宣導相關事宜，這個部分我也希望在兩個星期內能夠得到一個報告。","對於這麼多不同的意見，其實就代表政府不夠透明，所以在這個宣導跟教育的過程當中，我想我們很多民眾都不太知道核能的危險程度跟未來地方何去何從，所以這個部分我還是強烈要求先討論核廢如何處理，再來重視核安問題，好不好？"],["陳主任委員明真：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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那也請部長請部長"},{"start":12.285,"end":36.065,"text":"吳委員好部長好那延續的剛才許多委員有提到就是目前來講在資安的部分以及AI的部分要如何用AI的包括大家的專業來去來去來去對抗AI的這種詐騙那剛好在前兩天在南投也發生一個實事體那我們看到這個圖片"},{"start":37.866,"end":54.158,"text":"這個AI成為大罷免的一個惡霸的工具那民進黨或者是在南投的霸團他們就是用AI來去生成這個新聞稿就是本席的辦公室的新聞稿還直接做了兩則"},{"start":55.599,"end":75.111,"text":"第一則叫做我感謝霸團把我第二階段連署通過但是目前現在他們還在收集這連署書但沒關係反正荒腔走反行徑都競逐難輸那第二的話就是說我們支持就是他們就偽造的還變成說這是罷免另外一個選區馬文君委員這樣"},{"start":76.992,"end":101.402,"text":"那用這樣子的一個深層的新聞稿用GT來去散佈這個假訊息那我想問一下就叫一下部長像這種現在的科技AI的工具它卻成為這樣子運用的一個手段甚至騷擾的手段那在以目前來講在這一個委員會中我們來揭露這樣子的一個事件"},{"start":102.142,"end":127.132,"text":"那就是在南投的這個霸團他們用這樣子的方式來去抹黑來去捏造還來去騷擾攻擊本席跟馬文君委員那像蘇法部隊這樣子的事情第一有掌握嗎第二在地方上能掌握嗎第三像這樣子的部分要如何在數位治理上來去做一個政府的角色扮演"},{"start":127.632,"end":151.463,"text":"有委員這個AI的確我先從技術面來談這個事情的確AI最近的進展它可以生成各式各樣的不管是文字或者影音或是相片所以以前都是說眼見為真是眼見不見的為真所以這方面是一個最基本的問題那怎麼去判斷跟偵測也是一直是一個大家在從技術面一直在研究的議題"},{"start":152.463,"end":177.194,"text":"所以我想這個裡面當然會牽涉到AI所以目前的確有另外一個政府我們部裡面在推動就是在AI的使用方面像AI基本法這個當然還需要再討論不過要從很多面從AI的使用要做一些當然就是鼓勵AI的成長另外要還換它的一些管理上面的問題所以"},{"start":178.054,"end":202.266,"text":"要從這邊去處理那至於說個別的新聞或個別的那個因為這種東西太多了所以我們並沒有特別去追蹤每一個那如果說像類似這種假訊息啊那在當初今天是本就是本席遇到嘛那同樣也是我跟馬文君委員被遇到這樣子的一個捏造的用我們辦公室發新聞稿來去做社群的散佈那在社群的這種"},{"start":203.106,"end":219.342,"text":"通報商如何有辦法讓他下架以及說在這個假星期如何來去做一個遏止還包括甚至也要想請教這個調查局還有資通安全處處長那像這樣子的一個情況那調查局這邊可以用什麼樣的方式來去啟動調查"},{"start":221.404,"end":250.163,"text":"對 那個這種假訊息的部分我跟委員報告我們有幾個機制一個當然就是說我們有所謂的NGO麥克風這樣一個組織就是說遇到這種訊息可以請他們來驗證以後他們會做公佈那我們自己本身也有網路詐騙通報查詢網這個東西有時候但不見得真的假訊息但是有些跟廣告相關跟類似詐騙的訊息這個可以到我們這邊來通報"},{"start":251.224,"end":277.269,"text":"那當然就是這個警政署或是法務部這邊也有不同的機制來處理所謂的假訊息我是不是請好那我們請處長是各位委員好有關這個AI Center的假訊息Deepfake的部分那調查局是有建立一定的檢測的模式那我們也有相關的檢測工具只要這個網路上有相關的這個訊息出現我們經過檢測是"},{"start":279.589,"end":293.826,"text":"身為 AI 生成的話那只要有違法譬如說違反懸罷法那我們就會去立案偵辦報請地檢署的那個在六都的地檢署他都有那個 AI 生成的這個"},{"start":294.867,"end":309.412,"text":"假訊息的犯罪調查中心我們會去細數偵辦好 謝謝因為他這個也直接在他們的幹部群就直接把這個GPD他們在生成的過程跟證據也都有修在上面那謝謝署長那同樣的說今天來講對於"},{"start":311.412,"end":336.805,"text":"這樣子的惡霸那包括有時候發現這樣子就是一個詐騙的過程那今天他們在向許多人在搜尋這個罷免惡霸攔尾的這個連署書啊結果今天的手段上面還就直接用這樣子AI的工具來去做偽造還包括偽造委員辦公室的新聞稿將來就有可能偽造成影音跟圖像那在這裡還是也謝謝剛才"},{"start":337.825,"end":356.738,"text":"部長的解釋跟包括我們調查局這邊的一個說明那也希望說在這個AI的治理過程中當然能夠讓我們的技術或是防治上更為提升那另外本席在這裡也再次也提到這個資安長的這個制度目前的話都是由這個副首長來去做接任或是適當人員"},{"start":357.659,"end":386.818,"text":"但是本席還是因為時間有限那請就是部內這邊提供一下目前各機關在這個擔任這個資安長是副首長的這個比例跟執行率那以及說是委外或是有適當人員的這個執行率大約比例是多少以及他的對於這個包括資安的專業掌握程度還是多少那這個比例希望能夠提供給本席辦公室因為本席在這裡還是要特別的去呼籲強調一下"},{"start":387.679,"end":414.094,"text":"那當然說以目前先行法規上各機關來講必須要設置這個資安長的部分在資安法第11條但是如果說像許多的機關他們的資安長本身對於資安就沒有非常了解甚至概念上也不夠熟悉那當這個資安長的話是不是能夠有效的讓機關內的這個資訊安全能夠去做一個了解甚至處理甚至平行的溝通"},{"start":416.015,"end":443.596,"text":"當然說很多事情還是要回到速發部去請教那只是說這樣子的一個制度上是希望治安長不是虛設的反而是實際上能夠有功能那在國外的話其實在業界的治安長他們的制度其實相對來講幾乎都會有資訊背景或是一定時數的訓練那我是希望說在目前國內的現行制度大概依法規治安法第11條是必須要設置那如何能夠真正的強化在每一個機關"},{"start":444.737,"end":460.728,"text":"還有的這個專業我相信還是要麻煩部長不過這個委員簡單的說明一下就是因為那個我們說因為治安長要做跨單位的協調他一定要有足夠的所謂的管理的權力所以才會使用才會目前很多是由副首長"},{"start":461.668,"end":488.174,"text":"來擔任那當然副所長在裡面我們會有很多的訓練或是會議當然也會有幕僚單位來提供協助所以目前這樣一個機制目前還好就是說在我們的這個重點還是在管理所以管理那個管理的人一定要有這樣的power所以我想重點是就是要有足夠的權力的人去擔任這個治安長這個技術反而是比較容易解決因為可以有幕僚跟相關的這個訓練可以在補強這樣"},{"start":489.697,"end":500.887,"text":"一些問題我們之後再來探討因為就是權力之間的部會業務的連結歸連結但是專業跟本身都有問題第一時間的掌握那我覺得也是相對重要謝謝現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（10時40分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["游委員顥：部長，延續剛才許多委員提到目前在資安及AI的部分，如何用大家的專業去對抗AI詐騙。剛好前2天在南投也發生一個時事題，我們看到這個圖片，AI成為大罷免一個惡罷的工具，民進黨或是南投的罷團，他們用AI去生成本席辦公室的新聞稿，還做了2則新聞。第一則說「我感謝罷團第二階段連署通過，但是目前他們還在蒐集連署書」但沒關係，反正荒腔走板，行徑罄竹難書。第二則是他們用偽造的方式，變成支持罷免另外一個選區的馬文君委員。用這樣生成的新聞稿，用ChatGPT去散播這個假訊息，我想問部長，像現在的科技，AI的工具卻成為這樣運用的手段，甚至騷擾的手段。以目前來講，在這個委員會中，我們揭露這樣的一個事件，就是南投的罷團用這樣的方式去抹黑、捏造，還騷擾、攻擊本席跟馬文君委員，數發部對於這樣的事情，第一，有掌握嗎？第二，在地方上能掌握嗎？第三，像這個部分要如何在數位治理上來做政府的角色扮演？"],["黃部長彥男：游委員，我先從技術面來談這個事情，的確AI最近的進展，它可以生成各式各樣，不管是文字或影音或相片，以前都說眼見為真，可是現在眼見不見得為真，所以這方面是一個最基本的問題，怎麼去判斷跟偵測也是大家在技術面一直在研究的議題。我想這個裡面因為牽涉到AI，所以目前的確有另外一個方向，我們部裡面在推動，在AI的使用方面像AI基本法，這個當然需要再討論，不過要從很多面向來處理，鼓勵AI的成長外，要防範一些管理上面的問題，所以要從這邊去處理。至於個別的新聞，因為這種東西太多了，所以我們並沒有特別去追蹤每一個……"],["游委員顥：沒關係，如果像類似這種假訊息，今天是本席跟馬文君委員遇到這樣捏造的訊息，用我們辦公室發新聞稿來做社群散布，在社群的通報上如何讓它下架？以及假訊息如何遏止？也想請教調查局還有資通安全處處長，像這樣的情況，調查局可以用什麼方式來啟動調查？"],["黃部長彥男：這種假訊息的部分……"],["游委員顥：處長請。"],["黃部長彥男：我跟委員報告，這種假訊息的部分，我們有幾個機制，一個我們有NGO 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我們再請部長好 主委好 部長辛苦齁騎一載啊 比較累齁不過齁 那個治安大家都很重視的我記得事務發布它你們有一個就是T-RollT-Roll就是"},{"start":28.513,"end":47.199,"text":"很多的單位很容易被駭客入侵所以你們自己就做一個政府骨幹的網絡希望可以在這一個是一個安靜的安全的環境裡面就避免被其他單位駭客來侵入所以這個部分目前"},{"start":48.851,"end":74.236,"text":"我看你們的資料就是47個A機關現在已經除了三個行政院、立法院、教育部、國教院認為他們沒有這個必要那其他的44個都建制完成那這個部分不知道書發部現在的立場就是說其他三個到底是不是需要是不是應該47個一起還是目前這樣子已經算是初步完成"},{"start":75.026,"end":103.357,"text":"就是報告委員就是我們在去年就完成44個那今年的重點應該是很多是在地方政府等等就是這些公務機關都能夠納入就是更多機關參與T-LORD那這個T-LORD的話應該在至少幾個我們所謂的紫霞市應該是在今年會納入那至於這三個機關當初他們說因為沒有業務需要而沒有納入這一塊是不是請那個王市長再說明一下"},{"start":105.117,"end":133.858,"text":"市長跟我們報告因為他們當初沒有需求但是如果說之後他們有需求的話我們會全力的協助他們來一起來包括我們立法院包括行政院都認為他們很安全因為他們有被入侵誰負責主要是因為他們沒有做跨機關的資料傳輸這一塊因為TLO本身它防護就是如果你有做跨機關資料傳輸的話在傳輸當中它會去做一個安全的防護但是如果沒有做跨機關傳輸資料的需求的話它就不需要借接這個TLOOK 那"},{"start":134.318,"end":140.111,"text":"六個縣市政府高雄市跟台北市還在建制其他直轄市來"},{"start":144.67,"end":166.188,"text":"其他指甲師幾乎都有在導入當中而且我們會包括我們的T-Row連接到T-Row它有一個安控伺服器這個我們都是免費的去提供給縣市來使用我們也會有輔導團所以現在依據115年明年對不對可以全部完成嗎可以"},{"start":168.215,"end":190.806,"text":"那這個如果都完成之後是不是在政府機關自己資料的傳輸之外駭客要入侵的機會就沒有報委員因為這個是在做資料傳輸的時候駭客沒辦法入侵但是機關本身自己他還是要有一些防護措施讓駭客不會從其他的管道去侵入到他的這個系統裡面"},{"start":192.133,"end":220.414,"text":"所以就是說反正這個踢肉啦就是說你們將來政府跟政府之間你說你可以用在政府之間那有沒有可能像我們現在看到的很多醫院啦很多都已經被駭客入侵的這一些是不是有機會再把他們包括進來那個應該是可以的有一些是那個比較大型的醫院其實如果他要上踢肉的話我們是可以去幫他們做接接的"},{"start":220.819,"end":233.231,"text":"所以這個是不是全部的單位都知道我是覺得這個如果如你們所設定的就是說我真的這麼好用我真的這麼安全那我就應該更普遍的去用到各機關那這個部分"},{"start":236.55,"end":254.685,"text":"因為我不知道假設你們明年一百一十五年全部可以完成這個沒問題然後完成之後相對的個資保護也好資安也好就可以用TLO就可以涵蓋台灣大部分的機關的資料傳輸就不會受到駭客的影響"},{"start":255.883,"end":274.146,"text":"就是資料傳輸過程中不會受影響但是剛剛那個王市長特別有講就是說我們機關本身的系統那個防護要從另外一個就是機盒跟演練去確認他的安全所以這是跟TIRO沒有直接關係但是會有TIRO是有幫助不過"},{"start":274.867,"end":291.268,"text":"整個機關安全還是要從根本化系統去做防護那這個我們會去做只要他是在我們的所謂的政府機關或者是特殊的這個會工機關我們都會去再做進一步集合確認落實治安的防護好沒關係現在就是說我"},{"start":292.109,"end":318.194,"text":"之前因為一直在關心這個踢肉的進度啦所以你們如果說可以照進度完成明年可以完成那這個我也希望說鼓勵你們繼續趕快把這個事情先完成好那另外就是說那個剛剛崑哲偉也有問到你們的員額一直都拚不夠那就是現在蘇化部所做的事情通通覺得人手夠了嗎"},{"start":319.056,"end":344.537,"text":"那個報告委員那個我先澄清一點就是說我們現在的那個預算原額是617人現在大概是我們原額真的目前有的人是500也是514多人大概只有大概有80%不過還是不夠啦所以我們還在努力的在在recruit人 尋找人所以我們當然希望剛剛講有些人尤其是治安的人員我們確實是努力在尋找中"},{"start":345.097,"end":359.547,"text":"所以你在看就是第一個我們人員聘用不夠第二個資安署的離職率卻是比一般的公務機關都還要高這有點奇怪就是說你看近五年全國公務人員的離職率是0.79%結果我們資安署的離職率是2.18%高這麼多倍 三倍"},{"start":367.296,"end":393.062,"text":"那當然之前有所謂的霸凌事件那現在就是說應該內部署長都已經整理整頓過了嗎會不會再有這種情況這個報告委員就是說我們離職率高有幾個原因一個當然是外面有一些吸引因為他外面給的薪水很高那另外一點就是說因為也是工作比較繁重責任比較就是說"},{"start":394.362,"end":414.01,"text":"責任工作重然後責任大所以確實有些人員是因為這樣而離開不過我們剛剛講就是經過當然也發生過霸凌事件經過處理之後尤其我們現在有新的署長上任之後這個問題正在被解決中所以各方面我想在今年會有很大的進步"},{"start":415.012,"end":430.959,"text":"OK那簡單的說就是你們之間就是同僚之間啦那跟工作的福利之間請部長也特別注意一下因為治安署的理智力的確是太高了所以這個有待檢討好那踢肉的事情也希望你們盡快把它完成好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時24分）謝謝主席，我們再請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：許委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長很辛苦，站了一個早上，比較累了！不過對資安大家都很重視。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["許委員智傑：我記得數發部有一個T-Road，就是很多單位都很容易被駭客入侵，所以你們就自己做一個政府骨幹的網絡，希望可以在一個安全的環境裡面傳送，以避免被駭客侵入。關於這個部分，我看了你們的資料，在47個A級機關裡面，現在除了行政院、立法院、教育部國教院認為他們沒有這個必要，其他44個都已經建置完成，對這個部分不知道數發部現在的立場是怎麼樣，其他3個到底是不是需要？是不是應該47個都一起？還是目前這樣子已經算是初步完成？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們在去年就完成44個，今年的重點應該是把地方政府這些公務機關都能夠納入，就是有更多機關參與T-Road，至少有幾個直轄市應該是在今年會納入T-Road。至於這3個機關當初是說因為沒有業務需要而沒有納入，這一塊是不是請王司長再說明一下？"],["王司長誠明：是，跟委員報告，因為他們當初沒有需求所以沒有納入，但是如果在之後他們有需求的話，我們會全力協助他們一起來納入。"],["許委員智傑：所以立法院、行政院都認為他們很安全嗎？萬一有被入侵，誰負責？"],["王司長誠明：主要是因為他們沒有做跨機關的資料傳輸這一塊，因為T-Road本身的防護就是如果有做跨機關資料傳輸的話，在傳輸當中要去做一個安全的防護，但是如果沒有跨機關傳輸資料這種需求的話，它就不需要介接這個T-Road。"],["許委員智傑：OK，在6個縣市政府裡面，高雄市跟臺北市還在建置，那其他直轄市呢？"],["王司長誠明：其他直轄市幾乎都有在導入當中，而且連接到T-Road有一個安控的伺服器，我們都是免費提供給這些縣市來使用，然後我們也會有輔導團去教他們。"],["許委員智傑：所以預計在明年（115年）可以全部完成嗎？"],["王司長誠明：可以。"],["許委員智傑：可以嗎？"],["王司長誠明：對。"],["許委員智傑：如果這個都完成之後，是不是在政府機關自己資料的傳輸之外駭客就沒有入侵的機會？"],["王司長誠明：報告委員，這個是在做資料傳輸的時候駭客沒辦法入侵，但是機關本身還是要有一些防護措施，讓駭客不會從其他管道去侵入到它的系統裡面。"],["許委員智傑：所以這個T-Road就是將來可以用在政府機關之間，那我們現在看到有很多醫院都已經被駭客入侵，是不是有機會再把他們包括進來？"],["黃部長彥男：應該是可以。"],["王司長誠明：是，有一些比較大型的醫院如果要上T-Road的話，我們是可以去幫他們做介接的。"],["許委員智傑：所以是不是全部的單位都知道這個？我覺得如果如你們所設定的真的這麼好用、真的這麼安全，那就應該更普遍的去用到各機關。假設你們在明（115）年可以全部完成，這個沒問題，然後在完成之後，相對的個資保護也好、資安也好，用T-Road可以涵蓋臺灣大部分機關的資料傳輸，就不會受到駭客的影響。"],["黃部長彥男：就是在資料傳輸過程中不會受影響，但是剛剛王司長也有特別講到，機關本身系統的防護要從稽核跟演練去確認它的安全，這是跟T-Road沒有直接關係，但是T-Road會有幫助，不過整個機關的安全還是要從根本對系統去做防護，這個我們會去做，只要是我們的政府機關或是特殊的非公務機關，我們都會再進一步去做稽核，確認落實資安的防護。"],["許委員智傑：好，沒關係。我之前一直在關心這個T-Road的進度，如果你們可以照進度在明年完成，那我也鼓勵你們趕快把這個事情先完成。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：另外，剛剛昆澤委員也有問到，就是你們的員額一直都聘不夠，現在數發部所做的事情通通都覺得人手夠了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我先澄清一點，我們現在的預算員額是617人，目前有五百一十多人，大概有百分之八十幾，不過還是不夠，所以還在努力的recruit人、尋找人，剛剛講的尤其是資安的人員，我們確實是努力在尋找中。"],["許委員智傑：所以你看，第一個，人員聘用不夠；第二個，資安署的離職率，確實比一般的公務機關都還要高，這有點奇怪，近5年全國公務人員的離職率是0.79%，結果資安署的離職率是2.18%，高這麼多倍，3倍。當然之前有所謂的霸凌事件，現在內部署長應該都已經整頓過了嗎？會不會再有這種情況？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，離職率高有幾個原因，當然外面有一些吸引力，因為外面給的薪水很高。另外一點，因為公務工作比較繁重，工作重然後責任大，所以確實有些人員是因為這樣而離開。當然也發生過霸凌事件，經過處理之後，尤其現在新的署長上任之後，問題正在被解決中，所以各方面，我想在今年會有很大的進步。"],["許委員智傑：OK，簡單的說，你們同僚之間跟工作福利的部分，請部長也特別注意一下，因為資安署的離職率的確是太高，有待檢討。T-Road的事情，也希望你們儘快把它完成。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：謝謝。現在請徐富癸委員。","等一下游顥質詢完，就先休息10分鐘。"],["徐委員富癸：(10時32分)好，謝謝主席，有請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早。部長，我們這一次修法，有特別針對中央跟地方聯防機制的修法，我想這是很進步的象徵，也代表地方政府不再只是消極的配合，而是積極參與國家資安防線的一員，部長應該認同啦？"],["黃部長彥男：完全認同。"],["徐委員富癸：但是，因為我過去也在縣市政府服務過，我很清楚知道，過去包含縣市政府，對於資安這一塊，它有一定的能量，但是往下一層，很多的鄉鎮公所，甚至很多中央派駐在地方的一些機關、分支機構，他們的資安能力，我們會很擔心，因為畢竟過去他們對這一塊是比較陌生，而且也沒有麼多的人力可以支應，但是面對未來的挑戰，包含現在對岸不斷地用駭客入侵的方式，我想不是只有中央的聯防機制要落實，跟地方的串聯，更是實務上很重要的挑戰，不希望出現所謂資安的破口。","我想請教部長，數發部是不是已經盤點地方政府資安的量能，包含所屬相關中央單位在各分支機構的量能，請部長說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：現在資安法新的修法，就是針對中央跟地方能夠強化資安的防護，當然會牽涉到人力跟系統的問題，剛剛也說明過，因為地方的確不只是資安人員，資訊人員也不足，所以希望資訊系統向上集中之後，管理上會比較容易。至於盤點人力的部分，署長可以再補充一下。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員的關心，以盤點人力來講，目前所缺的資安人力大概是239人，的確地方是比較多一點，173人，我們會協助地方積極增加相關的人力。預算部分，也會儘量協助地方預算上相關的補助，都會儘量協助地方。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，針對相關資安設備的部分，我們也擔心地方政府的財力問題，資安設備如果沒有跟著升級，達到一定的防護標準，恐怕也是形成很大的破洞，這部分數發部是不是有協助的機制，甚至未來怎麼樣定期做具體的聯防演練，做地方跟中央資源的串聯，是不是有相關的規劃？"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員，的確在資安法修法通過之後，我們可以跟地方縣市政府作一些相關的稽核、相關的演練、聯防等等的機制，所以中央跟地方相關資安的防護，我想會更緊密來合作。另外，剛剛委員提到，例如說，地方在資安的人力上面，的確是比較不足，這個部分，其實我們在之前也有請地方成立區域的聯防中心，像臺北、臺中跟臺南，還有東部等等，能力比較強一點的縣市來協助能力比較弱的一些縣市，大家把區域資安聯防的概念提升上來。"],["徐委員富癸：這點本席還是要請部長能夠防範，因為我們也擔心，包含剛剛召委，大家都在關心人力缺口的部分，以現在看到職場上，一樣的薪水，可以去民間為什麼要來做你們的工作，所以我相信在薪資結構，甚至一些福利的配套措施上，也必須再強化一下，沒有好的誘因，怎麼會找到好的人才？","另外，我想針對彈性的聯防機制，甚至共享的資安人力機制也必須儘快提出，這部分是不是可以在1個月之內給書面報告？"],["黃部長彥男：再給書面報告，好，沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，除了地方的挑戰之外，我想回到中央，這次的修法，提出包含資安署可以稽核總統府、五院，甚至國安會等上級機關，當然我們很樂見這樣的設計跟實務的運作，但是會不會因為這樣子的處理，影響憲政體制的獨立運作，還有資安署的稽核上，是不是有更具體的作法跟說明？"],["黃部長彥男：我想資安法很重要的部分，就是能夠對所有包含中央單位能夠稽核，不過稽核是一種協助，做演練，至於運作的細節，我請資安署再做說明。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員意見，的確因為資安是一體，以往除了行政院之外的其他4個院跟總統府，還有其他單位，沒有辦法在法的授權之下，做相關稽核跟協助的工作，因此沒有辦法整體來做相關資安，包括情資的分享跟一些聯防的工作，修法之後，就可以把整個，除了行政院之外，其他4個院跟總統府，大家可以整合在一起，這樣資安不管是在聯防協助跟情資的分享，都可以更完整的推動，以上。"],["徐委員富癸：我想國安的問題，大家都很關切，也是大家都要注意。部長，時代雜誌最近有報導AI安全公司針對美國的資訊中心發布，中國掌握多數AI中心關鍵零組件的供應鏈，如果這樣子蓄意的干擾，可能會造成資訊中心無法取得修復的元件，造成癱瘓的現象，而且更可能造成AI模型外洩的高風險攻擊，部長是不是有掌握這些資訊？"],["黃部長彥男：如果說是AI的算力中心或資訊中心，當然這裡面有很多所謂server的component，我們原則上就是不能用大陸的產品，現在國內的部分，包括電腦業者，這方面我們自己還滿先進的，所以我想這一塊不會需要中國的component才能做這些東西。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想我們都肯定這一次資安法的修法方向，也期待藉由這樣的修法，能夠落實從中央到地方完整安全、國安防範的機制，大家一起來打拚，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我們請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160627","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160627","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e52d75b627af9a95ccdc7e49bcbcbb61fdc2be5dfb0591b1bf1a088aa3d2b9e73c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:14:26 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跟平台多溝通啦處理的案件量可以再更有效率而且再更簡化優化他的流程啦不然這樣子讓我們的國人"},{"start":386.132,"end":405.137,"text":"等等等到第一個報警也沒用第二個他等三天五天等一個禮拜他的這個時間差可能他的LINE的假帳號還不斷的在詐騙其他國人那這個東西事情就像滾雪球般的越滾越大那被詐騙的金額就越來越多你知道嗎所以剛剛"},{"start":406.577,"end":426.444,"text":"其他委員在關心不是只有我們國人一般人這樣被詐騙我們現在更擔憂的是什麼很多的國際型的駭客組織鎖定台灣在做網路攻擊剛剛有講到醫療體系很多家的醫院也有很多家的產業"},{"start":427.924,"end":441.835,"text":"公司企業那這個已經是有系統性的在攻擊在勒索或者是在其他的這個我們的各自的外洩變成是這個不同的應用方式而且這個是違法的應用"},{"start":443.394,"end":470.611,"text":"那這個我覺得在源頭如果說在資安的部分我們速發部沒有提供資源能夠積極的去協助這些醫療院所或是協助這些產業企業那後端就衍生出很多的一個違法的應用那傷及到我們國人的權利跟他可能未來會被詐騙的可能性就會提高部長"},{"start":471.751,"end":494.24,"text":"所以呢你剛剛其他委員問你都沒有回答那這麼多家的醫療院所被勒索被攻擊那我們做了什麼那第二個那有些產業企業界我們現在法律規定上市櫃公司要有資安長那如果他不是上市櫃公司的話他被勒索他被這個攻擊那又該怎麼辦"},{"start":495.646,"end":514.78,"text":"那個報告委員我們遇到這種事情第一時間我們都有請治安院去協助所以事實上是有進去協助那當然就是說未來我覺得更重要是從源頭就是說希望將來我們有更多的因為法規依據我們可以對這些這個重要的這個不管是醫院或是這些公司做治安的演練跟集合確認"},{"start":516.021,"end":531.412,"text":"不會有這樣的一個漏洞那這才是一個最主要的所以我想資安法的修法對我們未來整個國家資安防護讓我們有權力去要求研練跟執行之後還有資安事件的通報等等等要整個大家一起公私協力把這個做好"},{"start":532.613,"end":545.389,"text":"我具體的要求部長啦我們速發部可不可以在兩個禮拜之內針對這種系統性的不管是醫療體系的供給或者是我們的產業公司行號的這個供給"},{"start":547.031,"end":574.857,"text":"我們除了接收到這個主管機關的一個通報第一個通報的機制要優化要有效率要快速第二個通報之後你們不管是我們訴發部的團隊或者是治安院的人你要給我們一個具體的一個簡化的流程還有你們提供的資源怎麼去做有具體的做法你這個要先公開透明讓國人知道讓產業界知道讓醫療系統知道"},{"start":576.977,"end":594.48,"text":"台會知道說原來我們政府是真的有系統性有步驟性而且是有方法有技術有資源的在支援他們啦好不好兩個禮拜內我也希望看得到這個具體的一個那個機制我要的是機制好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時14分）謝謝許召委，是不是請黃部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。同樣地我們也在關心數位發展部有關今天資安法要修法的問題，我關心的有兩件事：第一件事是，今天的即時新聞部長應該也有注意到，面對數位的威脅，美國聯邦政府國務院現在打算改造組織，針對數位治理將設一個新興威脅助卿，專司AI及網路安全的事務；包括南韓也在動員國家網路的防禦力量。我也知道我們賴總統一直以來都在宣示資安國家隊的組成，還有對於臺灣資安的風險如何加以提升，這個不是只有在政府單位，還包括民間產業面怎麼去強化社會資安防禦韌性、資安產業生態系要能夠健全、如何建構新興科技的防禦技術等等，我想這些都是國人對你們數位發展部重大的期許，總統及行政院對數位發展部也有很多的任務交付。以賴總統提出的因應國安威脅、防止網路攻擊、強化資安等等，剛剛其他委員也很關心這些事情，數發部目前的行動請簡要、重點說明。"],["黃部長彥男：就像委員的簡報講的，我們有3個方向、目標正在做，資安法是最基礎的，我們希望能夠很快通過；再來就是怎麼樣強化、落實資安法的執行，包括全社會防衛韌性、如何帶領資安產業在這個過程中能夠成長，甚至……"],["何委員欣純：部長，以剛剛其他委員的發言及本黨籍委員的發言，大家對資安法的修法都支持，但是法修過了之後，真正重要、讓國人有感的是什麼？是落實，你剛剛講到重點，就是如何落實，我們如何強化資安、維護國安？強化資安，公私協力如何打擊詐騙？要安我們國家的安全，也要安人民、國人的信心及財產安全，所以這部分如何落實最重要，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["何委員欣純：我就舉一個例子，現在一般國人最有感的是什麼？我們連LINE的詐騙都不知道該怎麼辦，詐騙手法不斷地變形更新，以我從媒體看到的數字，包括我在基層走訪的經驗，連我自己身邊的親人也一樣，都是透過LINE群組，八成以上LINE的帳號被盜，變成了詐騙集團的工具。","LINE有三大盜用陷阱：帳號釣魚，譬如小朋友參加繪畫比賽，可以幫忙投一票嗎？社區參加計畫的評比，可不可以幫忙按個讚或怎麼樣？這是第一個；第二個，電話號碼盜用，就是盜用電話號碼及簡訊的認證碼，事實上卻不是本人；第三個手法是電腦版的盜用，要你去掃假的QR Code。這些都是很新的詐騙手法，而且是現在正在進行中，包括我們的政府官員，我聽說連之前中央政府政務委員的帳號也被盜用，還跟對方LINE一下說「好久不見」。你要是看到有人LINE給你「好久不見」，接下來可能他就會說他家發生什麼事，要跟你借錢。","我要告訴你，現在LINE的帳號被盜用之後，民眾報警也沒用，只能等，為什麼？我就要請部長幫幫忙，你可能會跟我說這是警政署的事，跟你沒有關係。警政署告訴我們，針對這八成以上LINE帳號被盜的詐騙型態，LINE平臺的配合態度消極。我用實際的案例來說明，有一個跟我陳情的民眾，他的LINE帳號被盜，第一個，他找不到真人客服；第二個，他傳了LINE的官方問題反映表通報了，但是很抱歉，客服只是在24小時裡回復「收到」，收到了之後，很抱歉，你可能還要再等個三天、五天、一個禮拜，等待LINE到底能不能給你處理這個假帳號的問題。部長，我可不可以請你跟這個平臺聊聊天、喝咖啡聊一下，好不好？可不可以讓他們的態度積極一點，讓國人有感？我已經被詐騙了，我被這個LINE的假帳號詐騙，我都已經很鬱悶了，而且還心急如焚，去報警也沒用啊！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這的確是一個問題，我們也有跟警政署討論，那我們也正在積極跟LINE溝通，這個是不是可以請數產署說明？"],["何委員欣純：來，請說。"],["林署長俊秀：謝謝委員關心這個議題，我們也很關心這個議題，在昨天晚上跟日本的LINE公司開會開到晚上七點多，檢警調都有參加，針對委員所關心的客服問題，LINE也嘗試在解決，現在從1個禮拜處理100筆提升到200筆，然後調閱的流程也正在優化當中，所以我們會定期開會來協助民眾解決這個問題。"],["何委員欣純：拜託你們跟平臺多溝通，處理的案件量可以再更有效率，而且再更簡化、優化它的流程，不然這樣子讓我們的國人一直等等等，第一個，報警也沒用；第二個，他等3天、5天，等了1個禮拜，在這個時間差，可能他這個LINE的假帳號還不斷的被用來詐騙其他國人，那這個事情就像滾雪球般的越滾越大，被詐騙的金額就越來越多，你知道嗎？剛剛其他委員也在關心，因為不是只有我們國人、一般人這樣被詐騙，我們現在更擔憂的是什麼？就是有很多國際型的駭客組織鎖定臺灣在做網路攻擊，像剛剛講到醫療體系有很多家醫院，也有很多家產業、公司、企業，這個已經是有系統性的在攻擊、在勒索或者是我們個資外洩變成不同的應用方式，而且這個是違法的應用。我覺得從源頭如果在資安的部分數發部沒有提供資源積極去協助這些醫療院所或是協助這些產業、企業，那後端就衍生出很多違法的應用而損及我們國人的權利，他們未來被詐騙的可能性就會提高。部長，所以呢？剛剛其他委員問你，你都沒有回答，有這麼多家醫療院所被勒索、被攻擊，那我們做了什麼？第二個，在產業、企業界，我們現在法律規定上市櫃公司要有資安長，可是如果它不是上市櫃公司的話，它被勒索、被攻擊，那又該怎麼辦？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，如果我們遇到這種事情，在第一時間我們都有請資安院去協助，所以事實上是有進去協助，那當然我覺得未來更重要的是要從源頭解決，就是希望將來我們有更多的法規依據，我們可以對這些重要的部分，不管是醫院或公司做資安的演練跟稽核，確認不會有這樣的漏洞，這才是最主要的，我想資安法修法對未來整個國家資安的防護可以讓我們有權力去要求演練跟執行，之後還有資安事件通報等等，這整個大家一起公私協力來做好。"],["何委員欣純：我具體的要求部長，數發部可不可以在2個禮拜之內針對這種系統性的，不管是對醫療體系的攻擊或者是對產業、公司行號的攻擊，除了接收到主管機關的通報，第一個，通報的機制要優化、要有效率、要快速；第二個，在通報之後，不管是數發部的團隊或者是資安院的人，你要給我們一個具體、簡化的流程，還有你們提供的資源怎麼去做，有具體的作法，你這個要先公開、透明，讓國人知道、讓產業界知道、讓醫療系統知道，大家才會了解原來我們政府是真的有系統性、有步驟性而且是有方法、有技術、有資源的在支援他們，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：我也希望在2個禮拜內看得到一個具體的機制。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再送給委員報告。"],["何委員欣純：我要的是機制，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員富癸代）：謝謝何欣純委員。","現在有請許智傑召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e54126088ee8d78cc0dc7e49bcbcbb61fdc2be5dfb0591b1bf6283ac1051a9c2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:03:06 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請黃部長請部長還有蔡市長還有蔡市長好 部長早我想首先我有兩點小建議第一個我還是要建議部長就是所屬所有人上台在答詢的時候用語要精準"},{"start":30.68,"end":54.978,"text":"有就有 沒有就沒有不要在那邊模擬兩可這樣會影響委員在整個答詢過程當中會有錯誤的判斷這是我良心的建議第二個我看今天所有提案的14個包括我們行政驗版"},{"start":55.987,"end":72.409,"text":"大家所有治安的方向都非常正確了只是現在委員是站在民意機關看到整個基層所需要的東西所以"},{"start":73.769,"end":88.517,"text":"大方向都沒有問題只是一些修法的文字納入這是非常重要所以我要請教部長在這裡既然方向一致"},{"start":89.537,"end":103.55,"text":"只是在整個細節的部分我很冒昧的請教部長到底你們有沒有針對這些委員所提案的東西有沒有做一個綜合歸納跟"},{"start":106.161,"end":134.57,"text":"委員來做溝通文字如何修認為有可能就像我台灣民眾黨提出來就是我們現在行政院版裡面不一樣的就是我們希望扣大納入管理但是行政院只有政府機關所以在這個部分我不曉得部長有沒有責成屬下之人然後"},{"start":135.49,"end":153.085,"text":"有沒有去做研究跟委員說明溝通這樣下一次逐條討論會減少很多毛緩所以部長在這個部分你有沒有做這個動作我們那個有已經跟委員就是拜訪過"},{"start":154.306,"end":174.387,"text":"那個蠻多委員關於這條文剛剛講的那個我想那個委員講的沒錯我們方向一致那至於文字文字的修改現在也在跟我們不同版本有比較也做研析那現在也是再來就會進行一些進一步跟委員溝通那我們會確定這些文字以後在後面再進行這個二讀三讀"},{"start":174.907,"end":201.601,"text":"是啦 部長 這個直通安全啊 確確實實啊我說實在的 是未來是一個非常刻不容緩 急迫性的一個華啦因為過去我們想做 但是依華無據嘛那現在既然有這個華要修行政院也有版本 立法委員也有立法委員的版本所以在這個綜合方向 我在看"},{"start":202.361,"end":230.411,"text":"治安安全未來的發展跟監督管理是非常重要那大家也都有共識所以在這個部分我還是要因為我長期也在交通所以我每當看到我們數匯部責任重大但是方向有時候是錯誤的所以我也私底下也建議部長過很多次啦也就是我們現在這個單位看起來"},{"start":231.531,"end":242.564,"text":"要人沒人要錢沒有什麼錢但是責任就很重大啊所以這個部分我希望部長要加強溝通好不好加強溝通逐條討論的時候會減少很多麻煩的"},{"start":249.392,"end":265.067,"text":"好那另外因為我們大家都知道啦數位部有些人就認為這個沒有什麼重要性但是我認為是非常重要因為資安的發展也是你們要來資安的管理也是你們要來可是現在問題"},{"start":266.428,"end":279.888,"text":"科技日新月異的情況之下我們數位部就非常重要所以在這裡啊我記得我在三個月以前也就是民間的馬街醫院的問題"},{"start":281.574,"end":296.489,"text":"我要請問署長我已經執行三個月以前已經執行了你們針對這個醫院一連串前幾天還是有一個醫院我就感覺到很奇怪他們在竊取所有資料"},{"start":297.21,"end":319.699,"text":"完完全全是針對醫院有階段性喔有階段性那這些就是有計畫性的供給嘛所以我不曉得三個月以前我已經提出來我不曉得蔡署長你這裡針對所有的醫院包括馬街醫院你們做什麼處置跟做什麼做法好來署長"},{"start":322.099,"end":341.99,"text":"是 我想謝謝委員剛剛的保貴的一個提醒跟建議那至於對這個醫院方面的相關的這個治安的保護部分那第一線是在衛福部這邊他們也做一些相關的報告你不要再推那個蔡署長我要的是你這三個月有做什麼措施緩緩嘛"},{"start":342.93,"end":358.627,"text":"是是謝謝委員那在治安署這部分目前我們除了在這個聯防上面的這樣這個機制協助衛護部之外那另外我們在今年的相關的這個這個資訊服務團就治安服務團裡面我們有20個單位其中有一個10個單位是醫療的這個體系來做相關的輔導跟服務的工作"},{"start":363.172,"end":388.109,"text":"你不要跟我說那麼多啦你如果要書面報告你私底下再提供給我我要的是你做什麼事你說那麼多是要幹什麼第一個我問你嘛你知不知道這個被確認以後這個有一些新藥品直接找病人去兜售你有沒有去掌握這些資訊我要的是這些你們到底有沒有這些像馬這醫院1600筆的資料1600萬筆喔"},{"start":393.052,"end":418.008,"text":"那這些病患都有這些廠商去兜售藥 你有沒有掌控還有另外一個 你有沒有告訴所有這些醫院的人 要告知我們所有的病患 我的資料被確有沒有去做防範都是說 有人在給你做什麼其他的話 你要小心有沒有做這些動作 我要的是你這些嘛 有沒有"},{"start":418.616,"end":431.721,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛提到的這邊就是衛護部是醫院的目的主管機關所以剛剛委員這邊提到的你有沒有督促他們做嘛是是是那衛護部有沒有嘛我都有跟衛護部這邊的資訊處這邊理事長這邊充分的請他這邊去好了我問第一題你就這樣了來保定來保定我跟你講"},{"start":439.924,"end":458.535,"text":"其實像這種東西就是亡羊補牢的動作要做既然被侵犯了以後那我要如何去建立建立治安的SOP這很重要啊你既然被盜的時候被破的時候那當然你要告知對方啊就舉例"},{"start":459.575,"end":484.971,"text":"黃部長 你的資料已經那個所以你以後要小心這個部分那我們要怎麼樣去亡羊補牢你要有SOP啦 保證我們說實在話 知道你們人很少但是最起碼的保護措施要做嘛所以這 我要說保證 我是給你一個建議啦好 另外一個 另外一個問題不是只有醫院"},{"start":486.999,"end":502.154,"text":"剛剛蔡副院長已經講了包括私人最近大家比較夯的就是關稅開始的時候也就是航運這幾天也是被那個駭客攻擊喔"},{"start":503.482,"end":518.417,"text":"所以 柏定 請你來答啦 蔡署長都給我答的 我沒什麼鬆開啦你知道 針對問題答覆 我已經跟你講過了所以如果你以後要這樣答覆 我坦白跟你講 你就書面報告給我 我就不問對不對 來 署長 部長"},{"start":526.363,"end":533.01,"text":"就是航運現在也是被盜如何處理這幾天而已喔"},{"start":535.401,"end":561.293,"text":"好啦我跟你講啦就是這個這個有幾家現在就是醫院到完以後他現在在到航運公司的資料他們做這個我不曉得要做什麼可是最起碼任何一個犯罪行為我想法務部或什麼他們就知道犯罪一定有他的目的嘛啊不然他做什麼犯罪動作所以說委員為什麼治安法在這裡非常重要"},{"start":561.913,"end":578.144,"text":"是很重要扣到我們去集合這些這些單位所以目前因為這些單位我們現在那個就是對這個剛剛講這個這是交通部下面的一個是行管局的那個工作我們這個香港市長法我們同時我們可以去集合"},{"start":591.933,"end":616.524,"text":"他是航港局管 他是航運公司管可是最起碼你要給他資訊啊這不是你監督的一部分啊我已經發現問題 我告訴你這件事情要如何防範趕快未以籌謀 亡羊補牢 防範措施這些動作都要做欸我今天還沒有跟你談說 這個如何去做補救的欸"},{"start":617.344,"end":633.931,"text":"如何去做什麼求產欸因為今天我們也有這種資訊保安這等等所以我還是希望部長真的啊要加油啦沒有指責的意思但是最起碼既然要修法一事到位一事把它修為更為完整"},{"start":636.272,"end":663.079,"text":"這是非常重要所以我剛才一開始就給你建議的收集所有資料各委員提出來的不足的部分我們接受然後有所困難的加以解說這樣主角討論才不會浪費時間這個法下來也會更完整更完善達到我們真正定定法律其目的部長所以這點我還是給你一個建議好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（10時3分）謝謝主席，請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林委員國成：還有蔡署長。"],["主席：還有蔡署長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["林委員國成：部長早。首先我有兩個小建議，第一個，我還是要建議部長，所屬所有人上台答詢的時候，用語要精準，有就有，沒有就沒有，不要模稜兩可，以免委員在整個詢答過程當中會有錯誤的判斷，這是我良心的建議。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["林委員國成：第二個，我看今天所有的14個提案，包括行政院版，對資安的方向都非常正確，委員是站在民意機關的立場，看到整個基層所需要的東西，所以大方向都沒有問題，只是一些修法的文字納入，這是非常重要的。既然方向一致，只是在細節部分有所不同，我要很冒昧地請教部長，你們到底有沒有針對這些委員的提案內容做過綜合歸納，並且就文字如何修改跟委員做過溝通？就像我們台灣民眾黨提出來和行政院版不一樣的就是我們希望擴大納入管理，但是行政院版只有政府機關，所以這個部分我不曉得部長有沒有責成屬下去做研究，並跟委員說明、溝通？這樣下次逐條討論會減少很多麻煩耶！請問部長，你有沒有做這個動作？"],["黃部長彥男：有。關於這些條文，我們已經拜訪過滿多委員了。委員剛剛講得沒錯，我們方向一致，至於文字的修改，我們有針對不同的版本進行比較和研析，再來就會進一步跟委員溝通，文字確定以後，後面再進行二讀、三讀。"],["林委員國成：部長，資通安全管理法的修正確實刻不容緩，因為過去我們想做卻於法無據，既然現在要修法，行政院有版本，立法委員也有提案，在我看來，資通安全未來的發展和監督管理是非常重要的，大家也都有共識，所以在這個部分我還是要……因為我長期參加交通委員會，每當我看到數位部責任重大但方向有時候是錯誤的，我也私底下建議過部長很多次，也就是我們現在這個單位看起來要人沒人，要錢沒有什麼錢，但是責任就很重大啊！所以這個部分我希望部長要加強溝通，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們會……"],["林委員國成：這樣逐條討論的時候會減少很多麻煩。好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的意見，我們會持續跟委員討論。"],["林委員國成：好。","另外，大家都知道有些人認為數位部沒有什麼重要性，但是我認為是非常重要的，因為資安的發展也是你們要來處理、資安的管理也是你們要來處理，可是現在的問題是，在科技日新月異的情況之下，數位部就非常重要。記得我在3個月以前就針對馬偕醫院發生資安問題質詢過你們，前幾天又有一家醫院發生類似的事件，針對醫院一連串的資安問題，我就感覺很奇怪，他們竊取資料完完全全是針對醫院，而且有階段性，所以這就是有計畫的攻擊嘛！3個月以前我就提出質詢，不曉得蔡署長這邊針對所有的醫院，包括馬偕醫院，做了什麼的處置、採取了什麼做法？"],["黃部長彥男：我請蔡署長回答。"],["林委員國成：好，署長。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員剛剛的寶貴建議，有關醫院資安的防護，第一線是在衛福部這邊，他們有做一些相關的包括……"],["林委員國成：你不要推這個！蔡署長，我要知道的是你們這3個月有採取什麼防範措施。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員，在資安處置的部分，目前我們除了在聯防機制上面協助衛福部之外，在今年相關的資安服務團裡面有20個單位，其中10個單位是針對醫療體系來做相關的輔導跟服務的工作。"],["林委員國成：署長，你不用跟我說那麼多，如果你有書面報告，私底下再提供給我，我要你說的是你們做了什麼事，你講那麼多幹嘛！第一個，你知不知道這個被竊以後，有些新藥品的廠商直接找病人去兜售？你有沒有去掌握相關資訊？我要的是這些答案！像馬偕醫院1,600萬筆資料，相關病患都有廠商去跟他們兜售藥品，你有沒有掌控？還有另外一個，你有沒有告訴這些醫院要告知所有病患資料被竊的事情？有沒有去做防範的動作，告知如果有人做其他事情的話，要小心？有沒有做這些動作？我要的是這些，有沒有？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告，就剛剛提到的，衛福部是醫院的目的事業主管機關，所以剛剛委員提到的……"],["林委員國成：你有沒有督促他們做嘛？"],["蔡署長福隆：是、是、是……"],["林委員國成：有沒有嘛？"],["蔡署長福隆：我都有請衛福部資訊處李處長充分地處理這件事情。"],["林委員國成：我問第一題，你就這樣了。部長，其實像這種東西就是亡羊補牢的動作要做，既然被侵犯了，以後要如何建立資安事件的SOP？這很重要。既然對方的資料被盜、被破解，當然你要告知對方，舉例：黃部長，你的資料已經被盜，所以你以後要小心。這個部分要怎麼樣去亡羊補牢？你要有SOP。部長，說實在的，我也知道你們的人很少，但是最起碼的保護措施要做，部長，我是給你建議。","另外一個問題，不是只有醫院，剛剛蔡副院長已經講了，包括私人，最近比較夯的就是關稅措施開始的時候，航運公司這幾天也被駭客攻擊，部長，這個問題你來回答，蔡署長都回答那種答案，我聽了不太「爽快」。要針對問題答復，我已經跟你講過了，所以如果你以後要這樣答復，坦白跟你講，你送書面報告給我，我就不問，對不對？部長，航運公司的資料現在也被盜，如何處理？這幾天而已喔！好啦，我跟你講，醫院盜完以後，他們現在在盜航運公司的資料，他們做這個行為，我不曉得要做什麼，可是最起碼任何一個犯罪行為，我想法務部或相關單位他們都知道，犯罪一定有他的目的，不然他做什麼犯罪動作？"],["黃部長彥男：委員，這就是為什麼資安法在這裡非常重要，因為……"],["林委員國成：是，很重要。"],["黃部長彥男：因為可以擴大我們去稽核這些單位，剛剛講了，這是交通部下面航港局的工作，我們做的是資安法，通過之後我們可以去稽核。"],["林委員國成：部長，我跟你講，我對你的業務一向都非常支持，但是對於數位部所有的答復，我是極度不滿，也就是推三阻四。沒錯，它是航港局管的，它是航運公司管的，可是最起碼你要給它資訊，這不是你監督的一部分嗎？你已經發現問題，應該告訴對方這件事情要如何防範，趕快未雨綢繆、亡羊補牢、提出防範措施，這些動作都要做。我今天還沒有跟你談如何去做補救、如何去做求償，因為今天也有資訊保安等等，所以我還是希望部長真的要加油。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會。"],["林委員國成：我沒有指責的意思，但是最起碼既然要修法，就要一次到位、一次修得更為完整，這是非常重要的，就像我剛才一開始就跟你建議的，要蒐集所有資料，各委員提出來的如果有不足的部分，我們接受；有困難的，你們加以解說，這樣逐條討論的時候才不會浪費時間，這個法接下來也會更完整、更完善，真正達到制定法律的目的。部長，這點我還是給你一個建議，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e56a4b06973b7c822adc7e49bcbcbb61fdc2be5dfb0591b1bfeb84b7fcc79dab935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:49:28 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說像這個像Iron可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對你們從產品"},{"start":211.361,"end":230.851,"text":"產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的"},{"start":231.371,"end":260.764,"text":"然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那"},{"start":262.097,"end":275.647,"text":"產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題他本來就產品是美國製啊再來他是大型企業他可能一時被害他沒辦法處理那"},{"start":276.721,"end":293.829,"text":"政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取系統性的數量規模極大的"},{"start":294.389,"end":316.064,"text":"你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅 資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的"},{"start":316.604,"end":324.798,"text":"我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在"},{"start":326.294,"end":350.42,"text":"政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是"},{"start":351.48,"end":375.46,"text":"不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕"},{"start":377.23,"end":400.382,"text":"它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品"},{"start":403.874,"end":427.905,"text":"只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是"},{"start":429.517,"end":446.507,"text":"資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個"},{"start":448.919,"end":475.169,"text":"最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討"},{"start":476.569,"end":492.015,"text":"這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平台臉書上面就消失"},{"start":493.291,"end":515.552,"text":"那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子"},{"start":517.045,"end":534.799,"text":"那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果"},{"start":536.365,"end":553.694,"text":"訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明他覺得不爽他就把你刪"},{"start":554.949,"end":569.57,"text":"是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪"},{"start":571.673,"end":598.329,"text":"所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通"},{"start":600.117,"end":605.972,"text":"我們現在講任性在國防在安全上面的任性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題"},{"start":607.386,"end":632.737,"text":"我們就法令嘛 全世界 我們是 台灣是民主法治的國家 美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅 並不 台灣比他們強大 危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化 強太多所以我們面對 民主自由沒有關係 我用法治的角度我直接速發布 認為你就是要揭露嘛"},{"start":633.618,"end":656.695,"text":"我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道我就不用你的嘛"},{"start":657.455,"end":680.832,"text":"你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼"},{"start":683.075,"end":712.395,"text":"這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛所以中華民國的法令是什麼"},{"start":713.595,"end":731.469,"text":"我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦"},{"start":732.29,"end":760.626,"text":"所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的common sense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的"},{"start":761.53,"end":775.116,"text":"好不好部長那個委員這個這瞭解那我剛剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他這對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理"},{"start":776.29,"end":797.322,"text":"對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":222,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時49分）謝謝主席。請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好。針對今天主席安排審查的法案，本席也提出修正版本並修了好幾條，跟行政院版大同小異，我想我們就不談。但其中第四條，本席的版本提到，政府應該提供資源，協助民間處理、因應及防範資通安全威脅事件。部長，你有注意到本席的版本嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：有。"],["蔡委員其昌：那部裡面有沒有什麼看法？對於本席這個條文的提出。"],["黃部長彥男：資安本來就需要公私協力，所以我們現在是有像TWCERT這樣的一個機制，讓通報協助來處理一些資安的事件，我想委員提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同。"],["蔡委員其昌：我想概念上你們不會反對，但本席為什麼要加進去，我希望讓你們有法源的基礎，為什麼我要這樣提？部長，你看過監察院有一個調查報告，公告時間是113年1月18號，主要的案由就是針對民間企業及個人資料外洩、上網被兜售的事件。這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、和運租車等等其他企業，被盜的數目、個資都是百萬筆、數百萬筆。危害到大型公共事務或者是個資大量的洩漏，這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如單一的一個什麼貿易公司、民間企業的電腦被駭或者幾個客戶的資料被偷，我認為不可以用相同的角度來看。就像你們這次的修法裡面，為什麼你會針對政府所謂關鍵性的這些設施，譬如過去裴洛西議長來臺灣訪問，我們的這些政府公部門電子螢幕上面出現被駭，有一些攻擊臺灣的文字或者有攻擊臺美關係的文字出現，你們這一次修法裡面認為這個要處理嗎？沒有錯嘛！沒關係，如果有人要代替你回答，我也可以。"],["黃部長彥男：這主要是因為它用了一個產品，就是危害國家資通安全的產品，才會產生這些事情，所以這個從危害國家資通安全產品裡面可以做限制。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["黃部長彥男：不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯，就是對這種大型公司，尤其有很多個資的公司，的確要加強管理。我剛剛講的是，當然特定的非公務機關的這個定義，其實各事業目的主管機關可以要求，像iLINK可能交通部可以……類似這種東西，被要求的單位有特殊資料或特殊服務，那當然是可以被要求納入我們的特殊非公務機關特別去監管。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你們從產品端，第十條、第十八條，都是企圖從產品端限制。那我的意思是，產品端限制這個我等一下再跟你討論，我也很支持，但是除了產品端的限制，如果產品沒有問題，他可能買的就是美國產品，他不是買一些奇奇怪怪的包括中國的，結果他被駭。舉個例子，譬如路口有大型廣告看板、電子看板，這個其實越來越多，公司規模越來越大，在特定的時間點駭入它，然後就直接把他的政治訴求，譬如兩岸有任何問題的時候，他直接把政治訴求就打在臺灣重要路口的電子屏幕上面。產品沒有問題，就是你在產品端做審核、查核，沒有問題，本來產品就是美國製。再來它是大型企業，可能一時被駭，沒辦法處理，那政府這時候應該要協助吧！部長，你認不認同？"],["黃部長彥男：對，這個會協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：對嘛！所以我的意思是給你們一個法源，讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取，很系統性地、數量或規模極大的你們可以因應，法律條文裡面，政府要提供資源協助民間處理，防範這種資通安全的威脅事件。所以部長，我訂這一條，你知道我的用心良苦嘛！讓你們也知道其實可以引用這一條。","這一條規範裡面，到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的？我想就授權，給你們規範出到底是哪一些部分，因為這個其實影響很大，如果我們只界定為，政府只關注那些所謂的基礎設施、關鍵性設施，我認為那個遠遠不足，對國家安全的防護，在資通安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足。所以本席認為應該要制定這一條，這是一個很重要的原因。","第二個，我剛剛講過，我們在產品端上面，現在不只中國，反正只要我們認為有安全疑慮、威脅的就不可以，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我要跟部長討論一下，隨著科技發展，現在的東西越來越多，我隨便舉一個例子，自動販賣機，當它有internet功能的時候，它上面也有螢幕，也可以連結上網，因為支付現在透過雲端，不是我們傳統的自動販賣機，投錢、按下去完全是機械原理，然後領出飲料，現在的自動販賣機不是這樣，我相信會越來越複雜。所以自動販賣機它是不是資通訊產品？"],["黃部長彥男：只要連網的都算。"],["蔡委員其昌：連網的都算，對。我認為以後會越來越多，保溫杯也會啊！"],["黃部長彥男：可以連網。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為它可以直接連網，記錄你每天喝多少水，你什麼時候會去裝水、每次都裝多少cc，然後可以辨別出這是水、茶、可樂還是什麼，都可能嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：都有可能。"],["蔡委員其昌：這些只要一連網，保溫杯也算是資通訊產品嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：算納管的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這個範圍你們要去界定，因為現在我們的想像裡面，不可以只界定在手機、平板、電腦，不是這概念嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：物聯網的設備太多了。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以部長，你現在這個……"],["黃部長彥男：我們會去了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，數發部要去了解，好。","最後，最近有一個新聞，我想大家也都注意到，前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查臺港用戶的發文。部長，你有注意到這個新聞嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，這個新聞我了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我先不去論介入的這個事實到底真相為何，因為現在有一點各說各話，我們就靜待它的發展。但本席對於一點，我覺得很有必要拿出來探討，很多團體、這裡面藍藍綠綠都有，我們不斷地接收到陳情或者抗議，抗議什麼？抗議有一些文章為什麼會在Meta的社群平臺臉書上面就消失了？消失了之後，他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說：為什麼我的文章會消失？但正常的程序是，他們得不到任何回應或者就算有回應，都不是什麼正面回答你的問題，都是牽扯其他的或者一個簡單的他們內部的什麼規定還是內部的一個什麼原則，它大概就簡單回答你，是這個樣子。","本席覺得是這樣，每一個公司的企業經營有他內部的一些規定、規章，本席沒有意見，但本席認為這種規定、規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗，這個檢驗包括使用者本身，包括政府本身。所以如果數發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到，原因是什麼？如果你們覺得該做、該修法，它就應該被修法，哪有可能它把任何一個……敵人滲透正是因為它不需要說明，它覺得不爽，它就把你刪了，是不是這樣？部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠，每一個色彩的政黨都有可能被刪，只看它高不高興。它也不需要回答你，它就跟你說：我們的公司就是可以刪。"],["黃部長彥男：所以Meta的審核機制的確不是很透明，因為這個不透明，連美國國會參議院也在做聽證，所以我們也是看聽證的結果，我們會跟Meta交涉，就是第一個要透明化，要下架應該要讓民眾了解，我想這個我們會持續關注。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，部長，剛剛你沒有聽懂，我的意思就是，不要再溝通了，我們現在講韌性，在國防、在安全上面的韌性臺灣，我們應該主動地把這些問題，我們就法令來看嘛！全世界裡面臺灣是民主法治的國家，美國也是，但臺灣的國情跟美國不一樣，美國所面臨的即刻性威脅，臺灣比他們危險太多了，就是我們的急迫性比他強太多。所以我們面對民主自由，沒有關係，數發部直接用法治的角度，認為你就是要揭露！就直接告訴你指引是什麼，就直接公布這個叫規則，甚至如果要修法，我們立法院來支持！我想這個大家都會支持啊！","你為什麼把人家刪文？應該要有一套事先的……你公布什麼沒有關係，至少讓我知道你們就是挺共的，所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除，那我知道之後就不用你了嘛！你都不告訴我，表面上裝得一副很民主、很自由、言論開放，事實上你刪了什麼？你為什麼要刪這個？背後是不是有共匪的勢力在指導？我怎麼會知道呢？我這樣講你，你也不高興嘛！因為你覺得你沒有嘛！既然你沒有，你要刪人家的文，又沒有一個指導、一個原則，告訴人家你的遊戲規則是什麼，這個才是問題所在啊！","所以部長，你再去跟他們溝通，因為我們每次在這裡講Meta，你都說要去喝咖啡，對不對？從詐騙一路到今天，都是這樣子嘛！本席一直認為這個不可行，你要喝還是可以喝，但是沒有效果嘛！你看，我們最後還不是不斷在立法院修法，給你武器！","它也是美國公司嘛！守法很重要，到每一個國家落地，就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛！中華民國的法令是什麼？我們的數發部應該要有一些想法，不可以讓我們的消費者在使用Meta這些產品，然後整天都在客訴、整天都在跟立法委員陳情、整天就在媒體上和其他平台上面「訐譙」這個事情。我是覺得這個很奇怪啦！","所以我今天無意……我也知道Meta它的準則是什麼，我認為公開透明、讓大家可檢驗是一個基本的common sense，這也是一個基本的要求，而且也不是針對它嘛！全部的社群平台，要落地在我們中華民國，我就是要告訴你：我們的法規就是這樣子，必須每個社群平台都可被檢驗，我要確保你後面不是共產黨，你不是要來消滅中華民國的。好不好？部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員說的我瞭解，我剛剛也特別強調，因為美國他們在開聽證會，有關Meta的內容審核機制，希望美國政府會強迫它公開，那我們就會知道怎麼處理了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對啦，我的意思是說，不用什麼事都等美國，你也可以先做啦！我的意思就是叫它公布審查……公開透明，任何臺灣有在使用的平台就公布嘛！我不會針對一家公司啊！以後哪一家公司都一樣，我的要求是這個樣子嘛！好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再處理。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請林國成委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5bb39b6e66757642ddc7e49bcbcbb61fdc2be5dfb0591b1bf2b94a1fe9365f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:39:20 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請一下黃部長請部長"},{"start":10.182,"end":30.925,"text":"部長您好 相關國家的資安架構是非常重要的不管是公部門或者是非特定的公務機關我們發現到相關的資安人力的配置是嚴重的人力不足那相關的資安人力的配置就好像是一座城"},{"start":31.866,"end":54.283,"text":"我們相關的資安架構就是要守護這一座城的相關的基本的人力基本的人力不足的時候其實成本是很容易被攻破的要一個打十個不是每個資安人員都是越問我們來看我們數位發展部我們的資安署所公布的統計資料就是2023年"},{"start":56.425,"end":63.007,"text":"就是中央級地方公部門它依法配置的資安專責人員要有1533人但是實際編制的正式人員只有939人它僅佔需求的61.25%而已"},{"start":74.631,"end":98.17,"text":"如果說我們中央級地方的公部門非正職人員因為正式人員不足我們有一些非正式人員的人力補充包含約聘僱委外總共335人即使再加上這一些外聘的人力公部門的缺額還是達到239人就是說有近16%的缺口沒有填補那"},{"start":100.307,"end":118.402,"text":"人力的不足啊 職安人力的不足 部長有什麼具體的想法嗎我們部裡面 針對剛剛講就是說一個當然就是我們有一些訓練 轉職系的訓練那預計今年都就是大概是五百 四百五十到五百 就會補今年會補四百到五百個人"},{"start":119.102,"end":145.934,"text":"那另外當然我們有高考的所謂的資安類科那個也大概我們會增加我們的宣傳希望更多人來報考那希望從這些訓練管道轉職系跟高考的這樣一個人員來補充我們現在資安人力不足的問題那細節是不是資安署署長資安署這邊我還是要提醒你們我們公部門的資安的人力是嚴重的不足"},{"start":146.581,"end":162.257,"text":"那當然主要的原因就是待遇不具競爭力工部門的薪資是低於業界這當然是不爭的事實以及現行的人事的規定它彈性不足"},{"start":163.058,"end":186.374,"text":"那我們看看特定的非公務機關像關鍵的基礎設施的營運單位或者是國營事業或者是經過指定的重要民間機構它其實同樣依資通安全管理法它還是需要建立資安的組織跟專責的人員它其實也同樣面臨資安人力不足的問題"},{"start":188.649,"end":215.843,"text":"我認為我們公司部門同樣面臨這種專業的資安人員的編制不足以及正式的編制人員大概只有六成出頭那剩餘的都要靠約聘跟委外來處理那其實它的外流這種職位的穩定性還是嚴重不足了離職率非常的高來說明一下"},{"start":216.434,"end":242.566,"text":"是謝謝委員的指導委員所講的確是一個非常重要的一個問題那的確是因為現在資安人力非常有限所以各個領域各個部門公司都在競爭有限的資安人力那待遇的確是一個非常重要考量的因素那因為公部門的待遇的確是沒有辦法跟市部門的這種待遇薪資來比較所以在人才的競逐上面是比較吃虧所以我們有一些"},{"start":243.146,"end":257.143,"text":"包括一些獎勵的措施 待遇的這些流採的措施目前是有一個增資加給就是只要是有這個A級的機關他可以有些增資加給來增加他的一些待遇不過這個還是永遠不足以對對對"},{"start":259.466,"end":278.528,"text":"是否能夠將資安人員來列入這種高風險的專業的職系提供額外的這種職級的晉升跟員工加級來留住人才這個是不是以後要推動的一個方向是的我們會努力那這個要跟人事總署這邊再來積極的溝通"},{"start":280.689,"end":302.389,"text":"另外我們對於地方機關的資安的問題同樣他的資安責任以及他實務的推動還是有陷入相關的困境我看到我們台灣2024年每週平均遭受3993次的攻擊這是全球平均的138.6%是亞太之罪"},{"start":306.653,"end":323.866,"text":"那當然我們看到修法好像只是聚焦在相關的集合通報流程的提升它其實它制度的最脆弱最核心的漏洞還是沒有去能夠完全的防禦那我們看看全台灣368個鄉鎮當中"},{"start":328.052,"end":350.903,"text":"有超過1%是沒有專任的資訊人員更不用說資安人員那原鄉地區有很多人他一個人要負責多種的業務社福、民政、急難救助以及相關的這些工作他還要再加上資訊的這些工作一人身兼多職"},{"start":352.043,"end":369.3,"text":"那我要嚴肅的請教一下蘇發部我們有沒有去盤點鄉鎮層級的實際他的資安的基礎能量以及這些機關有沒有基本的偵測跟通報的能力來說明一下那個我們在署長說明"},{"start":370.337,"end":387.77,"text":"謝謝委員講到一個問題的重點就是地方基層的這種資訊或資安能力不足的問題那這個當然人的問題有時候不是本時間內可以解決那我們目前是從整個架構上面是向上集中因為這是重要的資訊系統還有資安的防護主要還是由縣市政府這邊來負責整個的規劃跟推動"},{"start":391.352,"end":419.421,"text":"規劃跟推動你們有沒有要去建立相關的這種區域的資安資源的團隊面對這種編制跟人力不足還有資安的漏洞所以我們才會說向上集中之後再建立一個區域的資安的團隊例如說跟當地的一些大學等等的合作由他們來做一些相關的資安的一些不管是檢測還是防護的防護的輔導跟協助我想這種公私協力才有可能把這個鄉鎮公所的這個資訊或是資安的能量來提升"},{"start":420.357,"end":444.543,"text":"這都是很嚴肅而且很嚴重的問題最後我問一個問題就是說我們的資安的事件它相關的通報制度以及它揭露的一個問題我們來看看其他國家跟我們台灣的這些相關揭露以及通報的這些的落差那台灣主要是要求內部的足跡通報"},{"start":445.783,"end":459.995,"text":"其實對外揭露缺乏強制性因為我們台灣的治安法主要是強調內部通報那規定政府單位以及特定非公務機關發生治安事件的時候"},{"start":460.856,"end":475.642,"text":"它依照事件的等級在一定的時間之內要足及的上報主管機關跟行政院的資安的這些主管機關那其實對外揭露方面它其實沒有強制的條文"},{"start":476.542,"end":499.755,"text":"只有在涉及個人個資的時候會適用個人資料保護法而要求通知當事人那但是我們個資法的規定也相當的籠統缺乏明確的時間的這些實現跟處罰那實際上其實是有很大的問題那我們來看看美國歐洲日本韓國"},{"start":500.976,"end":523.272,"text":"他們都有明確的規定他們規定24至72小時之內有強制通報及揭露的這個制度那這個對重大事件的公開揭露及通知的義務他們都有明確的規定那我是不是具體建議我們重大的資安事件應該在72小時之內就要通報政府"},{"start":524.532,"end":539.45,"text":"另外要建立揭露的義務跟他的一些差別性的罰則來避免這種沉默的共犯造成食安更大的漏洞那食安的通報是不是能夠比照食安的制度"},{"start":541.051,"end":561.797,"text":"具備強制揭露跟風險預警的功能來簡單說明一下謝謝委員建議我們現在是有要求就新的治安法有要求通在一個小時之內要通報不通報的話要會有罰則所以這個應該是會比委員建議更更更力道會更強一點不過但這個這個我們會在這個新的治安法"},{"start":562.677,"end":580.022,"text":"我知道我們也有相關的這個規定我們是要更明確的在相關的法則以及在制度的追蹤監督落實這個方面必須要更具體啦不要落於這種只是虛文的一個規範而已我們會嚴格執行謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時39分）謝謝召委，請一下黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["李委員昆澤：部長你好。"],["黃部長彥男：委員您好。"],["李委員昆澤：國家的資安架構是非常重要的，不管是公部門或者是特定的非公務機關，我們發現相關的資安人力配置是嚴重的人力不足，資安人力的配置就好像是一座城，我們的資安架構就是要守護這一座城的基本人力，基本人力不足的時候，其實城門很容易被攻破，而且要一個打十個，我想不是每個資安人員都是葉問。我們來看數位發展部資安署所公布2023年的統計資料，中央及地方公部門依法配置的資安專責人員應為1,533人，但實際編制的正式人員只有939人，僅占需求的61.25%而已。即使加上中央及地方公部門的非正職人員─因為正式人員不足，所以有些非正職人員的人力補充，包含約聘僱、委外，總共335人。即使再加上這些外聘人力，公部門的缺額還是達到239人，有將近16%的缺口沒有填補。針對資安人力的不足，部長有什麼具體想法嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們部裡面有一些轉職系訓練，今年預計會補進四百到五百人。另外還有高考資安類科，這部分我們會增加宣傳，希望有更多人來報考。我們希望能從這些訓練管道、轉職系跟高考人員來補充現行資安人力不足的問題。至於細節，是不是請資安署署長說明？"],["李委員昆澤：我要提醒資安署，公部門的資安人力嚴重不足，主要原因在於待遇不具競爭力，薪資低於業界，這是不爭的事實，且現行人事規定彈性不足。至於特定的非公務機關，像關鍵基礎設施的營運單位或國營事業或經指定的重要民間機構，依照資通安全管理法規定也需要建立資安組織與專責人員，因此，上述單位同樣面臨資安人力不足的問題。我認為公私部門都同樣面臨專業的資安人員編制不足問題，正式的編制人員大概只有六成出頭，剩餘的都要靠約聘跟委外來處理，致職位的穩定性嚴重不足，離職率非常高，請說明一下。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員指導。委員所言的確是非常重要的問題，由於資安人力有限，所以公私的各領域及各部門都在競爭有限的資安人力，而待遇也確實是重要的考量因素。鑑於公部門待遇的確無法與私部門的待遇、薪資相較，在人才競逐上比較吃虧。為此，我們提出一些獎勵措施來留才，如增支加給，即A級機關可以增支加給來增加待遇……"],["李委員昆澤：增加待遇還是很重要……"],["蔡署長福隆：對、對。"],["李委員昆澤：是否能夠將資安人員列入高風險的專業職系，提供額外的職級晉升與年功加給來留住人才？這是不是以後要推動的方向？"],["蔡署長福隆：是的，我們會努力，不過這需要跟人事總處積極溝通。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，對於地方機關的資安問題，同樣，其資安責任及實務推動仍陷入相關困境。臺灣在2024年每週平均遭受3,993次攻擊，是全球平均的138.6%，為亞太之最。不過目前的修法好像只聚焦在稽核與通報流程的提升，至於制度最脆弱、最核心的漏洞還是沒能完全防禦。在全臺灣368個鄉鎮當中，超過三分之一的鄉鎮沒有專任資訊人員，更不用說資安人員！原鄉地區甚至有很多人必須是一個人負責多種業務，包含社福、民政、急難救助以及相關工作，現在還要再加上資訊工作，一人身兼多職。我要嚴肅地請教數發部，有沒有去盤點鄉鎮層級實際的資安基礎能量？這些機關有沒有基本的偵測與通報力？說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：請署長說明。"],["蔡署長福隆：委員講到問題的重點，即地方基層資訊或資安人力不足的問題。當然，人的問題有時候不是短時間內可以解決的，所以我們目前是從整個架構面來向上集中，也就是重要的資訊系統及資安防護，主要交由縣市政府負責規劃跟推動……"],["李委員昆澤：規劃跟推動？你們有沒有打算去建立相關的這種區域的資安、資源團隊，以面對編制跟人力不足及資安漏洞等問題？"],["蔡署長福隆：所以才會在向上集中之後，再建立區域的資安團隊。例如跟當地大學等合作，由他們來做與資安相關的檢測與防護的輔導、協助，我想唯有透過公私協力才有可能提升鄉鎮公所的資訊與資安能量。"],["李委員昆澤：這是很嚴肅而且很嚴重的問題。最後，有關資安事件的通報制度及揭露問題，我們來看看其他國家跟臺灣在揭露及通報上的落差。臺灣主要係要求內部逐級通報，但在對外揭露上缺乏強制性，因為臺灣資安法主要是強調內部通報，規定政府單位及特定非公務機關發生資安事件時，需依照事件等級，在一定時間之內逐級上報主管機關與行政院資安主管機關！至於在對外揭露方面，並沒有強制條文規定，只有在涉及個資時適用個人資料保護法，要求通知當事人，惟個資法規定也相當籠統，缺乏明確的時限與處罰，實際上存在很大問題。我們來看看美國、歐洲、日本和韓國，他們有明確制度，規定必須在24至72小時之內強制通報並揭露，且對重大事件的公開揭露及通知業務亦有明確規定。所以我具體建議，針對重大資安事件應該在72小時內通報政府，並建立揭露義務與差別性罰則，避免沉默的共犯造成資安更大的漏洞！爰此，資安的通報是不是能比照食安制度，具備強制揭露跟風險預警功能？簡單說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員建議。現在新的資安法有要求在一個小時之內要通報，不通報的話會有罰則，這個力道應該會比委員建議的更強一點。不過新的資安法現在有……"],["李委員昆澤：我知道有相關的規定，只是相關罰則要更明確，此外在制度的追蹤、監督與落實等方面必須更具體，不要落於虛文規範。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會嚴格執行。謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在請蔡其昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160623","video_u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主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長請部長"},{"start":10.117,"end":38.71,"text":"好 部長好 治安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們治安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們訴發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們治安署這邊來負責對不對"},{"start":40.372,"end":50.113,"text":"那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠"},{"start":51.393,"end":75.516,"text":"我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就只要等於是一倍多的業務量"},{"start":77.258,"end":102.634,"text":"我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自通安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊"},{"start":104.515,"end":131.648,"text":"安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上"},{"start":132.938,"end":134.649,"text":"是要經過特殊查核的"},{"start":136.141,"end":163.271,"text":"但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣"},{"start":164.859,"end":176.838,"text":"來 那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他就說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分"},{"start":178.721,"end":205.969,"text":"這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改不是啊部長我們現在就是已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下"},{"start":208.952,"end":233.163,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁就要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性"},{"start":234.784,"end":253.652,"text":"那您的法源依據咧?但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表示報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核?也是請一個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡?那這不是要法源依據這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局"},{"start":260.495,"end":279.806,"text":"我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是不是應該來 部長部長"},{"start":288.98,"end":314.973,"text":"那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對 未來的部分就是我們會增加適任性查核適任性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嘛但是我們現在講是說各"},{"start":318.015,"end":337.397,"text":"本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度 精守的程度非常的高"},{"start":339.349,"end":361.675,"text":"一樣嘛 如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署 五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬 只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口 是漏洞"},{"start":362.435,"end":385.152,"text":"所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟的等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核"},{"start":385.598,"end":410.748,"text":"有編列在這個治安法裡面嗎目前的新的細節裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話"},{"start":412.969,"end":441.09,"text":"2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這一個清單會不會出來那個 鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database"},{"start":441.81,"end":469.973,"text":"會有Database會持續的Update嘛因為本席有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們之前也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及"},{"start":471.534,"end":491.444,"text":"列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了"},{"start":492.731,"end":503.525,"text":"這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是 謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是"},{"start":510.012,"end":525.902,"text":"我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用"},{"start":527.05,"end":547.936,"text":"那報部裡面同意組長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品"},{"start":550.218,"end":569.459,"text":"我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報"},{"start":571.821,"end":595.054,"text":"備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每人都有清查就是政府機關有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證但每人都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題"},{"start":596.334,"end":617.669,"text":"目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是有沒有使用部長 不好意思 一句話啦資安大家都關心 不分朝野 不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性"},{"start":618.635,"end":635.2,"text":"這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們肅發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":119,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時28分）主席謝謝，麻煩請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，關於資安法的修法，我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本，代表對國家安全來講，我們責無旁貸。但有幾個部分我還是要跟你就教，也落實到底資安法修法之後，能不能真的達成數發部所要達到的目的。","首先，我們看到未來的稽核以及公務機關的稽核等等都會由資安署來負責，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對資安署的稽核，如果是所有公務機關，不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要負責的話，你們的人力夠不夠？"],["黃部長彥男：我們資安署這方面目前是每一年至少稽核40個單位。"],["洪委員孟楷：40個單位？"],["黃部長彥男：至少40個單位，那當然未來是……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在納入之後，是全部的公務機關都要……"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是所有的，現在A級機關，如果連特定非公務機關加起來，每年大概有96個單位，所以當然資安法通過……"],["洪委員孟楷：等於是一倍多的業務量，我看到你們第三十二條還說，得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家資通安全防護的演練跟稽核。所以你們未來還會再委託出去？"],["黃部長彥男：對，因為中央目的事業主管機關對自己下面的單位，比如像台電還有油、水、電這些公司應該向經濟部就……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席要問的問題是，這一些人員有可能是最了解整個國家公務機關的資訊、安全機密，他們的查核就相對重要了。"],["黃部長彥男：也是要特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：對不對？也是要特殊查核。好，我們來看一下，現在特殊查核是有相關規定的，我找到人事行政總處在去年12月的時候又把特殊查核的職務一覽表show出來，其中本席看到資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上是要經過特殊查核，但是就如同我們最近在講外交部諮議的事件，他的職等沒有很高，可是他經手的是部長的外交行程，也因此一個諮議長期在部長旁邊，拿到的相關資料、流出去的機密不知道有多少，他在政府底下變成是一個共諜，他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣。我想請教，未來我們是不是也要把這些相關的稽核人員放入？現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量，他們說不是用職等區分，而是用經手的業務來區分。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會再進一步在部裡面來討論，根據行政院的規定，我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們現在已經在討論修法了，如果未來這個修法通過之後，馬上就變成數發部資安署的業務，資安署馬上就要上路了，我也看到你們的稽核方式是要報行政院核定……"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但這些總要先預想啊！"],["黃部長彥男：我請署長說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，簡單說明一下。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員給我這個機會說明，剛剛委員提到的適任性查核或是特殊查核其實非常重要，我跟委員報告一下，在資安署裡面，的確如同委員剛剛所講的，在科長級以上的主管要做一些特殊查核，但我們是根據業務涉及到的機敏性來決定查核範圍，例如在我們通報應變組裡面，所有同仁都要做查核，也就是根據這個組的特性……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的法源依據呢？目前為止，我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂的特殊查核，那這個特殊查核表報出去之後是由法務部調查局來做特殊查核……"],["蔡署長福隆：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那其他人員是由誰來做特殊查核？"],["蔡署長福隆：也是請法務部調查局來協助……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的法源依據在哪裡？"],["蔡署長福隆：這不需要法源依據，這個是行政規則。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的人員名單要報啊！"],["蔡署長福隆：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果你沒有報的話，你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局……"],["蔡署長福隆：我們會報人員跟職務的職稱。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那你現在報了嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：因為我們通報應變組這一組涉及到一些其他機敏相關的資訊，所以人員就會做一些適任性的特殊查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在問的是報了沒？"],["蔡署長福隆：我們應該是有報。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是應該，部長……"],["蔡署長福隆：現在已經報過了，像一些具特殊性的組，我們就有特別要求他們做一些比較重要的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來去稽核的人員都有特殊查核？"],["蔡署長福隆：未來我們會增加適任性查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：適任性查核指的是一般查核？"],["蔡署長福隆：就是根據公務人員任用法第四條，再加上……"],["洪委員孟楷：那是一般查核嘛，但是我們現在講的是……，本席現在提出來就是因為外交部的事件，大家才看到一個諮議可以經手部長的相關行程時，結果他只有被查核過一次，也就是他到任時的一般查核，但是他的機敏程度、經手程度非常的高。一樣嘛，如果未來我們的資訊安全都是由資安署來查核，總統府也是資安署來查，五院也是資安署來查，那他們可能……百分之九十九的同仁都非常好，但只要有一個害群之馬、只要有一個老鼠屎的話，就有可能造成經手出去的資料、東西是破口、漏洞，所以本席才會提出來，到目前為止只有這個部分，則未來是不是應該要增加？還有，這個是公務人員任用法……"],["蔡署長福隆：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果未來有委託、委外，有非公務人員的……"],["蔡署長福隆：如果是委外，我們資安法裡面的施行細則對委外人員涉及國家機密等等相關部分也要做一些適任性查核。"],["洪委員孟楷：有編列在資安法裡面嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：目前的施行細則裡面就有這個部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，OK。部長，這個部分是本席特別提出來的，請在修法的過程裡面一併納入考量，既然要做，就不要有任何的漏洞。","第二個部分，針對危害全國家的資通安全產品，我看到第十一條新增的，也就是過去沒有法源依據的現在給它法源依據。2023年那時候有講到公務機關差不多有上千項的產品、軟硬體是禁用的，未來法制化之後，這個清單會不會出來？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，因為這種東西……產品一直在變，而且它可能會洗產地，所以我們不會給清單，但是我們會隨時審查跟通報。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是這樣所有的公務機關能不能夠掌握跟了解？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會通報，所以會有一個database。"],["洪委員孟楷：會有database？會持續update嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為本席看到更重要的，譬如上上個月，針對中國大陸製的人工智慧軟體也馬上下令不准公務機關使用，所以針對未來的軟體會適時的增添？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們會審查、檢驗跟通報，會有一個通報的database。"],["洪委員孟楷：依照這個相關法源依據適時的增添，所有的公務機關以及重要列管的非公務機關也都會掌握？"],["黃部長彥男：會有情資分享，會有database。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不會有誤用的狀況？"],["黃部長彥男：應該不會，我們會落實審查跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：之前媒體有問到，到目前為止……既然我們現在要修法，過去可能有用的地方，那現在有沒有全部都盤查，即現在所有機關都沒有用了？這個有沒有落實？因為之前媒體報導講的是，有一些產品可能有特殊、無可取代性，所以還沒有辦法完全禁止。到目前為止，你們現在掌握的狀況如何？"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員的指導，的確如委員所講的，我們對於危害國家資通安全的產品有一些禁止使用的原則，但是有一些例外原則，例如在教學或是研究現場等等，這些如果有需要的話，一定要報部裡面同意之後，在安全管控的環境之下，像是不能連上公務的環境等等，在管控之下才可以使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["蔡署長福隆：也要報部裡面同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，所以我現在只想問一件事，這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召──黃國昌委員說的，因為我聽過他太多次都在質詢同一件事情，我只想問，現在你們清查了，會不會再過一個月、兩個月之後又爆出哪一個部會用了列管的、禁止的產品？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在有沒有全面清查？因為給你們兩年的時間了，2023年開始到現在2025年了，你們現在要修資安法，我們也同意，我們也認為應該要加強國家的安全維護，但是現在通盤的去做檢驗，你們除了有一些特殊備註的、有書面列管的以外，到底現在有沒有？"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告，我們每年都有清查政府機關有沒有使用這些產品……"],["洪委員孟楷：不敢掛保證？"],["蔡署長福隆：每年都有清查，如果是例外要使用的話，都要特別報部裡面，根據他們的理由來核准，剛剛已經跟委員報告過了。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，你沒有回答到我的問題。"],["蔡署長福隆：是，目前……"],["洪委員孟楷：你是個聰明人，但是你不敢回答我這個問題。"],["蔡署長福隆：我們目前都有在清查這方面……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，不好意思，一句話啦，資安大家都關心，不分朝野、不分黨派，但重點在於落實，我覺得科技日新月異，但重點要落實才能夠防止，因為我覺得重點還是人性，這一點請部長這邊好好的……我們之後會好好的逐條審查，委員有不同版本提出來，若比行政院有更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方，也拜託數發部真的要用開放的態度一起思考，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的建議。"],["主席：謝謝，我們請李昆澤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-8","speakers":["許智傑","葛如鈞","黃國昌","黃捷","李柏毅","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","林國成","何欣純","徐富癸","游顥","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳素月","邱若華","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等\n17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲\n等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員\n邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安\n全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十\n一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】","agenda_id":"1144202_00001"}}},{"id":"160622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e554c06a7cb755e0a9aab39e7ea9331c7ec2be5dfb0591b1bffaaab92e9403bad85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10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這本來在2月5號啊 說裁定300萬交保那3月份的時候啊 發現沒有到庭以後 發現已經棄保潛逃我有一個很大的一個感慨啦 就是說法院在做這樣子的 在這種接押庭的時候啊一般來講的話 應該都會通知檢察官立庭嘛"},{"start":72.165,"end":88.871,"text":"市長不是這樣子嗎監察庭法律沒有規定必須要通知檢察官來力挺我們陷阱法上沒有規定是那所以說檢察官也未必會到實務上其實檢察官都會力挺如果有通知我們應該會到不通知的案例多不多"},{"start":90.231,"end":103.833,"text":"不通知檢察官他就沒有辦法,也許他主動知道當然可以,也許他不知道他可能就沒有辦法倒庭所以這個案子就怪啦這個案子就變成說在接家庭的時候檢察官沒有立庭"},{"start":105.08,"end":130.288,"text":"那法院他當然他有這個權利說這個預知被告多少金額來做交保嘛那這個案子是三百萬嘛我們就不談個案啦就說像這種案子三百萬交保以後那人跑掉啦到最後你說通知開庭的時候人跑掉啦那檢察官再去講說啊我沒有收到這個裁定啊所以我無從抗告啊那你會覺得這樣檢察官的這樣子抗辯的講法說法通嗎"},{"start":132.209,"end":157.211,"text":"跟委員報告啦我們對法院的強制處分他基本上是透過抗告制度去救濟嘛那抗告當然檢察官要抗告全體他要審酌抗告有沒有抗告有沒有裁定書或裁定書的理由他才有辦法提起抗告嘛那如果說法檢察官他沒有收到裁定書雖然這個裁定書對他宣示他可以提起抗告但畢竟沒有理由對檢察官來講他事實上他是事實上他的無從提起"},{"start":158.312,"end":175.852,"text":"你這樣講也未必是一個全貌實務上哪是這樣 實務上有時候常常這個當庭法官就預支多少錢 被告多少錢 交保以後你檢察官沒有收到裁定書 你知道了以後其實抗告跟上訴一樣也不一定要具體理由我先不付理由我都可以抗告啊"},{"start":176.652,"end":197.985,"text":"那跟那個前提是檢察官他有到場來執行公訴的前提之下所以這個案子又神不知鬼不覺檢察官又不知道啦人就這樣被給放走了那當然也未必講說法官他主觀上就是刻意要去放人也許他整個事實他認為是300萬交保本來就是很合理的啊他要跑到也不知道啊但重點我為什麼要這樣問呢就是跟前面啊"},{"start":200.851,"end":226.91,"text":"又發生一個中文字案嘛本來就是一個科技監控那現在就變成也是說檢察官沒有收到裁定那現在法院預支一定的金額交保以後那跑掉了以後檢察官的講法也是又說我又沒有收到裁定這就變成說到底這個制度裡面有沒有什麼樣的一個破洞在這個地方你像譬如說科技監控的部分我到現在還沒有搞清楚"},{"start":227.967,"end":253.355,"text":"我到現在還沒搞清楚我兩三個禮拜到法官學院的時候我特地去詢問了一下我也跟你們法界的人討論了一下我到現在還是搞不清楚就是說你像比如說實質科技監控某某某科技監控有預知科技監控一定有一段的時間嘛對不對那科技監控完以後我說把這個電子腳療我要把它給放掉把它給拿掉"},{"start":254.332,"end":279.839,"text":"就解除他的科技監控法官說要解除科技監控就可以解除科技監控那我們實務上就是你要有電子腳療的話你腳上有戴一個啊不可能法官自己去把它給拆除掉啊一定有人把它拆除掉啊那假設說我我是那個我們現在在執行的科技監控的人到底是誰啊"},{"start":281.051,"end":305.592,"text":"各位我們在四星電子組有設一個科共中心對 我知道高電子組有科共中心我說實際上要把那個角料拿掉的是誰啊科共中心有專門技術人員會去是技術人員那總要有人給他下令啊他就是這樣子啊如果他科技監控有一定期間嘛如果期間到了不延期在期間到前十天我們科共中心就開始通知法官你要不要延"},{"start":306.67,"end":332.982,"text":"如果時間到了還沒有因為沒有接下來延長的裁定了嘛他就不能夠再繼續擴控時間到了放人很合理啦時間到了放人很合理那我的意思就是說那你時間還沒到那我法官說下個裁定說你這個解除某某某的科技監控那總會你們是用開案的系統是不是對 他有一個系統好 那麼系統進去了以後那也不可能那一個執行人員直接他受到這樣的一個命令啊"},{"start":335.138,"end":357.989,"text":"你們都不用有任何一個書面或者說電子的公文都不用他如果裁定要科技監控當然他要有一個科技監控的命令書這些命令書給科工中心一定要有所以說嘛所以說你像比如說中文字案嘛你法官說要解除這個科技監控你要一個命令書嗎"},{"start":359.665,"end":364.98,"text":"他這個不是 他是不延長 這個個案他是不延長時間到了就不延長"},{"start":366.394,"end":391.957,"text":"他時間到不延長所以他沒有另外的一個書面出來了就像我們羈押 羈押時間到了你沒有再一個延長羈押那你檢方哪有可能不知道 檢方一定知道啊高檢署一定知道啊因為他是法院直接通知客控中心的直接通知客控中心喔對 他是直接 高檢署法官 他直接高院他直接 不是高檢署 高院跟科技中心聯繫因為審理中的強制處分是法官做的"},{"start":392.657,"end":402.917,"text":"那所以沈理中高院下這個裁定他直接通知 其實就是一個裁定嘛他直接通知客控中心說中文字放人是這樣子嗎"},{"start":406.684,"end":427.379,"text":"他放不放人 他因為 他沒有被羈押他科工中心這個人沒有被羈押 沒有放人的問題不是 解除科技監控啦 解除科技監控啦各位爸爸 他如果不延長的話 時間到了就不能夠不 不 我的意思是總要有人把他解除掉當然 當然那你不可能唸咒語說好好好 解除掉 不可能啦"},{"start":427.699,"end":448.829,"text":"他到Deadline的前一天或Deadline的前一天我們的技術人員通常會約到法院的特定住所去做解除的動作所以你們的技術一定要一個技術人員把他給繳聊電子繳聊把他給解除嘛所以這個解除的人到底是誰叫他去把他解除的啊他收到誰的命令啊"},{"start":450.068,"end":465.542,"text":"法院啊法院直接喔對因為審理中就是直接直接法院對對科控中心了啊所以這件就跟你們高檢署就無關喔因為他不延長他其實其實跟這件哇那就無頭公案啊那那像這種案子你像譬如說呃"},{"start":467.918,"end":474.24,"text":"在審理當中你檢察官 法官在借押庭的時候沒有通知檢察官立庭那檢察官事後 人跑掉了以後大家都不逃公安法官說我本來就是我獨立審判我認為三百萬本來就是合理的啊我認為三百萬一般案件的話你說我要保全被告或者我整個程序的進行三百萬是合理的"},{"start":494.346,"end":502.22,"text":"常常會出現這樣的一個不可能每個案子都是羈押嘛那你也不能講法官是什麼那檢察官又說我沒有收到裁定那像這種案件你們認為有沒有什麼樣的方法會比較好一點"},{"start":508.206,"end":526.287,"text":"當然根據委員報告啦 檢察官他要監督法院的所做的裁定當然就是對裁定本身提起救濟嘛是嘛 那前提是檢察官要知道這個裁定而且付理由他才有辦法救濟副秘書長有沒有什麼樣的 別有這個案齁每天都要拼一件"},{"start":527.509,"end":543.375,"text":"補一支中文字 補一支竹筆內通這個司法現在真的會有減損就是我們司法院立場我們一定會深自檢討但是我要跟委員講一下這背景就是說偵查中"},{"start":544.216,"end":558.754,"text":"結束之後檢察官決定他要起訴這個是檢察官決定的那今天這個人事實上本來在偵查中押他今天要到法院來事實上這個押票也是檢方開出來所以那一天要進到法院的時候檢察官他是知道"},{"start":559.335,"end":576.2,"text":"今天檢察官要法官要決定就是這個疑審程序有沒有他要決定這個所以我們實務上過去呢我們都尊重就是說因為檢察官他本來就知道了嘛知道說今天會開這個那個結壓程序那我們都是尊重說檢察官因為"},{"start":576.94,"end":603.649,"text":"坦白講因為大家真的太忙了大家負擔太重所以就尊重他他們來不來第一個他們是知道的那第二就是說大案他們其實也通常都會來那就是說這個事情發生之後呢檢方既然說我們沒有通知其實很多法院跟很多法官都還是會通知只是說有些呢就沒有通知因為檢察官前提他已經知道嘛那如果說認為這個地方我們要改善就是以後我們全面就全部通通都通知以上報告"},{"start":604.429,"end":630.606,"text":"那所以就是說當天要做了一個裁定檢方當然知道今天院方他會去做一個那個裁定那往後因為這個程序還在走所以說這個裁定是什麼檢察官他當然是會知道的那1306條的規定就是說院方他一定都會就是當庭去做一個宣示這個裁定已經做出來了嘛那做出來之後檢察官從這個10點開始他也是可以提抗告的"},{"start":631.545,"end":656.814,"text":"那 社長 你看 講法要跟你不同來他裁定 宣誓是對外生效沒有錯但是 宣誓因為這個案子講得沒有道理他不曉得裁定的理由跟裁定的內容嘛他沒有裁定 他不知道理由他如何進行抗告 除非他就一律的抗告啦我比較在意的其實不是這個啦 你們都"},{"start":658.018,"end":672.265,"text":"比較本位立場啦 其實我聽起來也都有道理啦但問題就是說 社會大眾不是這樣看啦社會大眾不會這樣看啦社會大眾一定把你們兩個的講法就是你們是呼嘌皮球啦社會大眾認為你們這樣 欸 不然都沒有人錯很多事情確實沒有人錯喔但問題緩解你怎麼樣去補這樣的一個漏洞"},{"start":680.988,"end":703.813,"text":"這第一個 第二個我為什麼要請海巡跟這個 呃 漁民署上來的原因就是說你像譬如說 我們一般財務案件 你說啊你就欠稅 你不叫欸 我這個行政院處這個地方 就跟你說 你這個限制出境限制出境 還有出海那一般這種情況的話 你們海巡接到這樣子的話 你們是怎麼處理啊"},{"start":705.732,"end":731.889,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關處分機關做出的限制出境海處分那本署接獲通知之後會立即由本署的偵防分署在安檢知識系統裡面書件那提供所屬來做一個查詢那如果是 是啦我的意思說已經到海邊了 現在到海邊了你看到了你們怎麼處理我們會告知原處分機關那禁止這個當事對象來出海"},{"start":733.052,"end":750.049,"text":"禁止對象出海 就是說你不能處理這樣就沒有其他任何處分了你們就是阻擋你不要給我出去有沒有其他動作 都沒有然後另外會通知原處分機關通知原處分機關原處分機關你們碰到他都怎麼處理他都怎麼處理"},{"start":757.659,"end":769.814,"text":"也譬如說行政執行處我們跟你們說這個人就欠稅了 不能處理他們來到海邊 你們在巡邏你給他通知有一個人在這個地方他欠稅的 他不能出去的那他通知你們接下來怎麼處理"},{"start":770.834,"end":789.939,"text":"他們會到現場嗎 不會吧原主任機關未必會到現場那有時候會透過電話的方式告知這個對象他不可以出海就只告訴他不可以出海而已那請問移民署移民署你們怎麼處理飛機要飛出去的到那個地方你們的處理方式是怎麼樣委員好"},{"start":790.379,"end":816.84,"text":"如果我們收到行政機關或是司軍法機關的那個限制出境的命令那原則上如果當事人到了國境線上的時候我們也是一語攔阻攔阻是一定攔阻我說你們用什麼樣的處分的方式原則上如果他不能出境的情況之下我們會看後續之前那個司軍法機關有沒有做特別的註記希望我們做什麼樣的動作你們不是都開個書面給他而已嗎你們就是開書面"},{"start":819.022,"end":843.764,"text":"那為什麼海巡的方式就跟你們不一樣這也怪喔我現在變成這種限制出境跟出海的部分海巡跟移民署的做法就不同啦你們移民署就是直接開一張書面跟他說你已經限制出境出海了所以你不能出境 交給他 憑什麼給他照反而海巡的做法又不一樣了他會去通知原機關然後等他的指示看要怎麼做處理"},{"start":846.631,"end":863.926,"text":"跟委員補充報告一下因為我們在國境線上一攔阻的時候我們會應當事人的要求開禁止出境的通知單通知單裡面會跟當事人告知說是哪個機關來禁止他出境那後續的處置的部分我們會依個"},{"start":865.848,"end":887.587,"text":"禁止出境的機關給我們的指示如果他需要電告那我們就會用電告的方式如果當事人是需要我們留置那我們就會就留置的方式請該等行政機關來做處理好 我最後一個問題要請教副秘書長就是說你像一般我們做限制出境的話像譬如說限制出境搭飛機的一定要護照嘛"},{"start":888.368,"end":906.317,"text":"那限制出境 我看今天羅志強委員他也提了一個案子啦我都這個蠻有創意的 你像譬如說你說限制出境了 那我法院可以把你限制出境啦我有這個權限把你限制出境啦 我乾脆把你這個護照給註銷啦我覺得這倒也不錯的一個思考的方式 我不知道你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":907.35,"end":918.028,"text":"我們司法院是贊同的因為目前的那個因為目前那個我們在那個報告上有講就是說"},{"start":921.909,"end":949.114,"text":"那個現行的那個行政作業上就是說外交部他們本來就是也有就不發護照跟那個註銷那現在就是說對於註銷的這一塊呢就是說把它放到那個116之二讓它作為就是停止羈押一個替代那個處分這個是可行的那這個等於是跟就是說他們外交部他們所做等於是那個多重的一個行政處分嘛"},{"start":949.594,"end":975.162,"text":"那這個我們認為是可行而且是有效的我也認為是有效所以羅志祥這個案子我準備給你支持但是最後的一個叮嚀就是說願檢其實像已經接二連三出現這樣的一個狀況常常讓檢察官用說我沒有收到裁定這個不是辦法啦再出現一次再出現一次每一次出現"},{"start":977.216,"end":1004.008,"text":"民眾的想法跟你們想的不一樣啊你們想的是各自的是誰的一個理由到最後可能會有究責的問題嘛這到底問題點出在哪裡搞不好都嚴不爽民眾的想法就是 啊是不是又偷偷放人了這個對司法的信賴多會減損啊你們還是要想個辦法院檢之間看怎麼樣有一個聯繫或者研擬出一個你們共同看怎麼樣把這個"},{"start":1006.749,"end":1011.047,"text":"動把它給補起來我覺得這個不要開玩笑啦好不好可以喔 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時29分）謝謝召委，有請司法院副秘書長及法務部黃次長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長及次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["黃次長謀信：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：請移民署及海巡署的代表也上來一下，好不好？","先請教黃次長，你跟王副秘在實務界都是非常有經驗的人，今天要特別請教有關最近竹北健身教練的案件，我相信你們應該很清楚這個虐童案，犯嫌又跑掉了，本來在2月5日已裁定300萬元交保，在3月份沒有到庭時，才發現他已經棄保潛逃，我有一個很大的感慨，就是法院在開這種覊押庭的時候，一般來講，應該都會通知檢察官蒞庭嘛！次長，不是這樣子嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：法律沒有規定覊押庭必須要通知檢察官來蒞庭，我們現行法上沒有規定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以檢察官也未必會到，實務上，其實檢察官都會蒞庭。"],["黃次長謀信：如果有通知，我們應該會到。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不通知的案例多不多？"],["黃次長謀信：不通知檢察官，他就沒有辦法，也許他主動知道當然可以，也許他不知道可能就沒有辦法到庭。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個案子就怪了，就變成在覊押庭的時候檢察官沒有蒞庭，當然法院有權力諭知被告多少金額來作交保，這個案子是300萬元嘛！我們就不談個案，像這種案子裁定300萬元交保後，到最後通知開庭的時候人跑掉了，檢察官再去講說：我沒有收到這個裁定，所以無從抗告。你覺得檢察官這樣抗辯的講法及說法通嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們對法院的強制處分，基本上是透過抗告制度去救濟，當然檢察官要抗告，前提是他要審酌有沒有裁定書或裁定書的理由，他才有辦法提起抗告，如果檢察官沒有收到裁定書，雖然這個裁定書有對外宣示，他可以提起抗告，但是畢竟沒有理由，對檢察官來講，事實上他是無從提起抗告。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你這樣講也未必是全貌，實務上哪是這樣？實務上常常是法官當庭就諭知被告多少錢交保，檢察官沒有收到裁定書，但是他知道了以後，其實抗告跟上訴一樣，也不一定要有具體理由，現在不附理由都可以抗告啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，那是在檢察官有到場來實行公訴的前提之下。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個案子就神不知鬼不覺，檢察官又不知道，人就這樣被放走了，當然也未必是法官主觀上刻意要去放人，也許他衡量整個事實，認為300萬交保本來就是很合理的，他要跑掉我也不知道，但重點是我為什麼要這樣問？就是前面發生過鍾文智案，本來就是科技監控，法院諭知一定的金額交保，當事人跑掉以後，檢察官的講法也是沒有收到裁定，這就變成這個制度裡面是不是有什麼樣的破洞在。比如科技監控，我到現在還沒搞清楚，兩、三個禮拜前我到法官學院，特地去詢問了一下，也跟你們法界的人討論了一下，但我到現在還是搞不清楚，比如實施科技監控，諭知科技監控一定有一段的時間，那科技監控完以後，要把電子腳鐐拿掉，解除他的科技監控，法官說要解除科技監控就可以解除科技監控，但是實務上你腳上有戴電子腳鐐的話，法官不可能自己去拆除，一定要有人把它拆除掉，請問現在在執行科技監控的人到底是誰？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我們在士林地檢署有設一個科控中心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，我知道高檢署有科控中心，我說實際上要把那個腳鐐拿掉的是誰？"],["黃次長謀信：科控中心有專門的技術人員會去執行。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是技術人員？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那總要有人給他下令啊！"],["黃次長謀信：就是這樣子，科技監控有一定期間，如果時間到了不延期，在期間到的前10天，科控中心就會開始通知法官，問要不要延，如果時間到了還沒有延，因為沒有接下來延長的裁定，他就不能夠再繼續科控了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：時間到了放人很合理啦，我的意思是時間還沒到，但法官下個裁定，解除某某某的科技監控，你們是用開案的系統，是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：對，它有一個系統。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，那進入系統以後，也不可能是執行人員直接收到這樣的命令啊！你們都不用有任何一個書面或電子公文？都不用？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，法官如果裁定要科技監控，當然要有一個科技監控的命令書給科控中心，一定要有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以，比如鍾文智，法官說要解除科技監控，要有一個命令書嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：這個個案是不延長，時間到了就不延長，所以他沒有另外一個書面出來，就像羈押時間到了，沒有延長羈押，當然檢察官……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那檢方哪有可能不知道？檢方一定知道啊！高檢署一定知道。"],["黃次長謀信：不會，因為是法院直接通知科控中心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：直接通知科控中心？"],["黃次長謀信：高院直接跟科控中心聯繫，因為審理中的強制處分是法官做的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以審理中高院下這個裁定，直接通知科控中心說放鍾文智，是這樣嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：因為他沒有被羈押，這個人沒有被羈押，所以沒有放人的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是，是解除科技監控。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，他如果不延長的話，時間到了就不能夠……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不，我的意思就是總要有人把它解除掉。"],["黃次長謀信：當然。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不可能唸咒語就解除了啊。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，到deadline的前一天或deadline那天，我們的技術人員就會到，通常會約到法院的特定處所去做解除的動作。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以一定要有一個技術人員把他的電子腳鐐解除嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：當然。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個解除的人到底是誰叫他去解除的？他收到誰的命令？"],["黃次長謀信：法院啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：法院直接喔？"],["黃次長謀信：對，因為審理中就是法院直接對科控中心了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這件就跟你們高檢署無關囉？"],["黃次長謀信：因為他不延長，其實這件……"],["莊委員瑞雄：哇！那就無頭公案了。像這種案子，譬如在審理當中，法官在羈押庭的時候沒有通知檢察官蒞庭，事後人跑掉了，就無頭公案了！法官說我本來就是獨立審判，我認為300萬交保本來就是合理的，一般案件如果要保全被告，整個程序的進行，300萬是合理的，常常會出現這樣的狀況，不可能每一個案子都是羈押嘛，你也不能講法官什麼，那檢察官又說他沒有收到裁定，像這種案件，你們認為有沒有什麼樣的方法會比較好一點？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官要監督法院所作的裁定，當然就是對裁定本身提起救濟。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛。"],["黃次長謀信：前提是檢察官要知道這個裁定，而且附理由，他才有辦法救濟。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘書長，有沒有什麼樣的方法，不要讓這種案子常常發生？一下爆一件鍾文智案，一下爆一件竹北虐童案，這個司法信賴真的會有所減損。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，是，我們司法院的立場是我們一定會深自檢討，但是我要跟委員講一下這個背景，就是偵查結束之後，檢察官決定要起訴，這是檢察官決定的，今天這個人事實上本來在偵查中押，他今天要到法院來，事實上這個押票也是檢方開出來，所以那一天要進到法院的時候，檢察官是知道今天法官要就移審程序作決定，所以過去實務上我們都尊重，因為檢察官本來就知道了，知道今天會開接押程序，我們都是尊重檢察官，坦白講因為大家真的太忙了，大家負擔都太重，所以就尊重他們來不來，第一個他們是知道的，第二就是大案，他們其實也通常都會來。這個事情發生之後，檢方說我們沒有通知，其實很多法院跟很多法官都還是會通知，只是說有些就沒有通知，因為前提是檢察官已經知道了，如果認為這個地方我們要改善，那以後我們就全部都通知。就是說當天要作裁定，檢方當然知道今天院方會去作那個裁定，因為這個程序還在走，所以這個裁定是什麼，檢察官當然是會知道的。依第三百零六條的規定，院方一定都會當庭去作一個宣示，這個裁定已經作出來了，檢察官從這個時點開始，也是可以提抗告的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣，次長，你看講法又跟你不同了。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有，跟委員報告，他裁定宣示是對外生效沒有錯，但是這個案子檢察官沒有蒞庭，他不曉得裁定的理由跟內容，他不知道理由，如何進行抗告？除非他就一律的抗告啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我比較在意的其實不是這個，你們都比較本位立場，其實我聽起來也都有道理，但問題就是社會大眾不是這樣看。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：社會大眾不會這樣看，社會大眾一定認為你們兩個的講法是你們互踢皮球。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：社會大眾會認為你們這樣，不然，都沒有人錯。很多事情確實沒有人錯喔，但問題是你怎麼樣去補這樣一個漏洞？這是第一個。第二個我為什麼要請海巡署跟移民署上來？譬如一般的財務案件，欠稅不繳，行政執行署就跟你說限制出境、出海，一般這種情況，你們海巡接到這樣的通知後是怎麼處理的？"],["廖組長德聖：跟委員報告，有關處分機關作出的限制出境處分，本署接獲通知之後，會立即由本署偵防分署在安檢資訊系統裡面輸件，提供所屬來查詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，我的意思是假設已經到海邊了，你們看到了，你們怎麼處理？"],["廖組長德聖：我們會告知原處分機關，禁止當事對象出海。"],["莊委員瑞雄：禁止對象出海？"],["廖組長德聖：對、對、對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是說你不能出去這樣而已？"],["廖組長德聖：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就沒有其他任何處分了？你們就是阻擋，說你不要出去，有沒有其他動作？都沒有？"],["廖組長德聖：另外會通知原處分機關。"],["莊委員瑞雄：通知原處分機關？"],["廖組長德聖：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：碰到這種事原處分機關都怎麼處理？譬如說，行政執行署說這個人欠稅，不能出去。當他來到海邊，你們海巡通知它說，有一個人在這個地方，他欠稅，他不能出去。那你們接下來怎麼處理？他們會到現場嗎？不會吧？"],["廖組長德聖：原處分機關未必會到現場，有時候會透過電話的方式告知這個對象，他不可以出海。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就只是告訴他不可以出海而已嘛！"],["廖組長德聖：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：請問移民署你們怎麼處理？對於要搭飛機飛出去的，到那個地方你們的處理方式是怎麼樣？"],["簡專門委員聰洲：委員好。如果我們收到行政機關或是司、軍法機關限制出境的命令，原則上如果當事人到了國境線上的時候，我們也是予以攔阻。"],["莊委員瑞雄：攔阻是一定攔阻，我是問你們用什麼樣的處分方式？"],["簡專門委員聰洲：原則上，如果他不能出境的情況之下，我們會看之前司、軍法機關有沒有做特別的註記，希望我們做什麼樣的動作。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們不是都開個書面給他而已嗎？"],["簡專門委員聰洲：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們就是開書面，那為什麼海巡的方式就跟你們不一樣？這很怪喔！現在就變成限制出境跟出海的部分，海巡跟移民署的作法不同，移民署就是直接開一張書面跟他說「你已經被限制出境、出海了，所以你不能出境」，交給他之後，他摸摸鼻子走了這樣而已。反而海巡的作法又不一樣，它會去通知原機關，然後等原機關的指示看要怎麼做處理。"],["簡專門委員聰洲：跟委員補充報告一下，因為我們在國境線上一攔阻的時候，我們會應當事人的要求開禁止出境的通知單，通知單裡面會跟當事人告知是哪個機關禁止他出境。那後續的處置部分，我們會依各禁止出境的機關給我們的指示，如果它希望電告，那我們就會用電告的方式；如果當事人是需要我們留置，那我們就會採留置的方式，等行政機關來做處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我最後一個問題要請教副秘書長，一般我們做限制出境的話，比如說要搭飛機的，一定要護照嘛！我看今天羅智強委員也提了一個案子，我倒覺得這個蠻有創意的，比如說，法院有權限可以把你限制出境，但我乾脆把你的護照註銷，我覺得這也是一個不錯的思考方式，我不曉得你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們司法院是贊同的，我們在報告上有講，在現行的行政作業上，外交部本來也有不發護照跟註銷的作法，現在就是把註銷這一塊放到第一百十六條之二，讓它作為停止羈押的一個替代處分，這個是可行的，這個跟外交部他們所做的等於是多重的行政處分，我們認為這是可行而且是有效的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我也認為是有效的，所以羅智強這個案子我準備支持，但是最後的一個叮嚀是，院、檢已經接二連三出現這樣的狀況，常常讓檢察官用他沒有收到裁定為理由，這個不是辦法啦！再出現一次、再出現一次，每一次出現，民眾的想法跟你們想的不一樣，你們想的是各自的理由，因為到最後可能會有究責的問題，到底問題點出在哪裡，到最後都驗不到傷。而民眾的想法是你們是不是又偷偷放人了，所以對司法的信賴都會減損，你們還是要想個辦法，院、檢之間看怎麼樣聯繫，或者你們共同研擬看怎麼樣把這個洞補起來，我覺得這個不要開玩笑啦！好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以喔！謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員羅智強等25 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案、\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員陳\n培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十九條及第四百五十一條之一條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員許智\n傑等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144301_00001"}}},{"id":"160621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5ff32b4bb83805564c89945c4c3ca21e1c2be5dfb0591b1bfe3f5687b5b8c8e805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:37:34 - 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謝謝 謝謝主席有請陳主委主委早主委好"},{"start":16.01,"end":36.474,"text":"上個禮拜五藍白兩黨聯手將重啟核三這個公投案進夫二讀那這個提案其實不僅完全不科學不理性不務實那而且還滿滿的惡意指向了屏東人罔顧在地居民生命財產安全周縣長 周春敏縣長有發文痛批"},{"start":42.515,"end":64.393,"text":"河山廠運轉至今40年5月17號即將完全除以正式走向歷史屏東人長期承擔風險終於碰到這一刻在野黨卻完全不尊重屏東人以出列的過程提出不負責任的公投令人痛心至極"},{"start":66.014,"end":75.727,"text":"我想本席也要再次強調不要讓今天的決定成為明天的困境依照核管法第六條的規定核電廠的機組本來就應該在運轉"},{"start":80.682,"end":102.2,"text":"實現這個戒制前重新進行安全評估的作業否則就得依法停止運轉那並著手處役的這個作業所以他各項在法規裡明定的時間就是所謂的運轉的年限這個 換照申請的法令期間那這些"},{"start":102.961,"end":127.079,"text":"無非就是為了所謂核電廠的安全來做考量那現在藍白這群荒謬的政客竟然用這種專業來扭曲來政治來扭曲專業那無視於這些所謂這些時間這些時限所代表的安全的意義所以我想請教主委是說作為核能安全最高機關核安會的你"},{"start":128.86,"end":137.433,"text":"是否同意這個法律中依法明文的年限的換照的期限就是基於他的安全考量"},{"start":139.286,"end":162.258,"text":"主委提案是委員的權利我是問你說這個法規規定有個安全的年限這個年限是不是就是安全的考量為什麼要定40年為什麼要定所謂的如果你要申請研議"},{"start":164.71,"end":188.89,"text":"你的辦法是訂5至15年前要來提出那為什麼要有這些年限是不是安全的考量是的 是嘛 對不對所以等於是你如果完全不按照這個年限來走特別是為什麼一個核電廠要訂40年要除役是不是就是安全所以超過了40年是不是就有嚴重安全的疑慮超過40年的話如果"},{"start":193.652,"end":218.082,"text":"要研議的話必須重新評估所以我們說到安全賴總統在全社會防衛任性委員會的成立跟相關的演練下關鍵基礎設施的防護就變成相當重要的一個課題那我想核電廠的安全的管制應該也要在留意各式各樣的威脅"},{"start":219.122,"end":228.045,"text":"尤其我們如何從所謂的災害中來渡過威脅並且恢復它的正常的運作我想我們面對像現在烏鱷戰爭無情的戰火下烏克蘭的砸菠蘿熱的核電廠它就反覆遭到這個炮火的攻擊啊那電力就會反覆的中斷那我們知道說核安會跟台電你們平常就有在辦理因應這些"},{"start":248.192,"end":271.918,"text":"突發狀況或者是軍事衝突的核安演習所以我想提醒核安會的是說假設災害先行發生軍事衝突才過來那你們到底在應變上是不是會增加難度那你是不是有想過這樣的可能的發生的順序那你要如何的應對 主委"},{"start":272.778,"end":287.304,"text":"我們過去也評估過這方面的議題一般來說我們認為他們只會直接攻擊核電廠但有可能會攻擊核電廠周邊的地方"},{"start":289.545,"end":306.595,"text":"這也是會造成恐慌啊是所以你對於這些演練你都有做一定程度的這個包括我剛說的吧有些是所謂的天災有時候是軍事的威脅那這些如果混在一起的時候呢"},{"start":307.631,"end":324.845,"text":"你都有做這樣的完整的演練過嗎我們在PT推演的時候有推演過這個方面的事情好 那我頭要請教你說同樣攸關這個安全防護就是游離輻射防護法的修法"},{"start":325.586,"end":352.698,"text":"那 核安會在原能會的時期其實它就已經有預告修法那也依照這個ICRP就是國際放射防務委員會的這個報告的指示進行全盤性的檢討那我現在就是比較納悶的是說那這部法既然預告期也結束了那麼久那這個會期到底有沒有機會送進來立法院來送審"},{"start":354.085,"end":359.107,"text":"有沒有機會這方面我們繼續進行中這個詳細請我們組長跟委員報告報告委員因為就是我們有公告之後就徵詢了各界的一個意見所以我們現在還就是一直持續的在滾動檢討中包括委員給我們的一些的關切的議題我們都一直在滾動所以我們這邊是一直在持續的辦理中"},{"start":377.572,"end":406.125,"text":"後續如果也因為這要依法要送到行政院來去做一個審議那審議後我們就會技術的送送到立法院這邊來好因為我其實本席跟冬臥委員在上個會期我們在審查預算的時候我們其實就叫和安會說今年來輻射的安全有那麼多的議題我們都需要被討論包括空情人員的這個游離輻射安全的防護的教育或者和安會相關的這個安全教育網的建置"},{"start":407.125,"end":419.035,"text":"或者檢驗工程人員的安全保障等等所以我想說有關於新興的游離輻射安全的這個防護的議題我想這些你們都會納入修法裡面嗎"},{"start":421.116,"end":439.67,"text":"包括委員 對 這邊也都會就是再納入修法那包括有一些是法或者是一個執法那也跟委員報告一下就是這一些的配套的一些執行的方案其實我們現在都已經持續的在做了像空氣能源我們現在有一個劑量管理的一個事辦計畫那我們已經有請那個我們的一些航空業者來配合我們做這一方面的研究"},{"start":446.195,"end":470.678,"text":"好 那所以如果你這個彙整的意見之後應該不會太晚送進立法院吧因為我覺得這個這個方法還蠻重要的因為它欠造很多的行業的安全對 這邊我幫委員我們禁書因為畢竟還是要經過行政院的整個的一個審議這邊要特別跟委員報告一下好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時37分）謝謝主席。有請陳主委。主委早。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：上個禮拜五藍白兩黨聯手將重啟核三的公投案逕付二讀，這個提案不僅完全不科學、不理性、不務實，而且還滿滿的惡意指向了屏東人，罔顧在地居民生命財產安全。周春米縣長有發文痛批，核三廠運轉至今40年，5月17號即將完全除役，正式走向歷史，屏東人長期承擔風險，終於盼到這一刻，在野黨卻完全不尊重屏東人，以粗劣過程提出不負責任的公投，令人痛心至極。本席也要再次強調，不要讓今天的決定成為明天的困境。依照核管法第六條規定，核電廠的機組本來就應該在運轉時限屆至前，重新進行安全評估的作業，否則就得依法停止運轉並著手除役的作業。所以它各項在法規明定的時間，就是所謂的運轉年限、換照申請的法定期間，這些無非是為了核電廠的安全來做考量，現在藍、白這群荒謬的政客，竟然用政治來扭曲專業，無視於這些時間、這些時限所代表安全的意義。所以我想請教主委，核安會作為核能安全的最高機關，是否同意法律中依法明定的換照的期限就是基於它的安全考量？主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：提案是委員的權利，我……"],["林委員宜瑾：沒有，我是問你，它的法規規定有個安全的年限，這個年限是不是就是安全的考量？為什麼要訂40年？為什麼要訂如果要申請延役，辦法規定是訂5至15年前要來提出，那為什麼要有這些年限，是不是安全的考量？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["林委員宜瑾：是嘛？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以等於是如果完全不按照這個年限來走，特別是為什麼核電廠訂40年要除役，是不是就是為了安全？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以超過了40年，是不是就有嚴重安全的疑慮？"],["陳主任委員明真：超過40年如果要延役的話，必須重新評估。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，所以我們說到安全，賴總統在全社會防衛韌性委員會的成立跟相關的演練下，關鍵基礎設施的防護就變成相當重要的課題，我想核電廠的安全管制應該也要再留意各式各樣的威脅，尤其我們如何從災害中度過威脅並且恢復它的正常運作。面對像現在烏俄戰爭無情的戰火下，烏克蘭的札波羅熱核電廠就反覆遭到砲火的攻擊，電力就會反覆地中斷。我們知道核安會跟台電平常就有辦理因應這些突發狀況或軍事衝突的核安演習，所以我想提醒核安會，假設災害先行發生，軍事衝突才過來，你們在應變上是不是會增加難度？主委你是不是有想過這樣可能發生的順序？你要如何應對？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的，我們過去也評估過這方面的議題，一般來說，我們認為他們不會直接攻擊核電廠，但有可能會攻擊核電廠周邊的地方。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["陳主任委員明真：這也會造成恐慌啊！"],["林委員宜瑾：是，所以你對於這些都有做一定程度的演練，包括我剛剛說的，有些是所謂的天災，有時候是軍事的威脅，這些如果混在一起的時候呢？你都有做這樣完整的演練過嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們在兵棋推演的時候有推演過這方面的事情，有做過推演。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那我要請教你同樣攸關安全防護的問題，也就是游離輻射防護法的修法，核安會在原能會時期其實就已有預告修法，也依照ICRP國際放射防護委員會，報告的指示進行全盤性的檢討。我現在比較納悶的是，這部法既然預告期結束了那麼久，這個會期到底有沒有機會送進來立法院審查？有沒有機會？"],["陳主任委員明真：這方面我們正在進行中，詳細情形請我們組長跟委員報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，我們公告之後就徵詢了各界的意見，我們現在還是一直持續地在滾動檢討中，包括委員給我們的關切議題，我們都一直在滾動，所以我們這邊是一直在持續地辦理中，後續因為這要依法送到行政院審議，審議後我們就會儘速送到立法院這邊來。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，其實本席跟多位委員在上個會期審查預算的時候就有就教核安會，近年來輻射安全有這麼多議題需要被討論，包括空勤人員的游離輻射安全防護教育，或者是核安會相關安全教育網的建置，或者是檢驗工程人員的安全保障等等，所以我想說，有關於新興的游離輻射安全防護的議題，這些你們都會納入修法裡面嗎？"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，這邊也都會再納入修法，包括有些是法或是一點子法。也跟委員報告一下，這些配套的執行方案其實我們現在都已經持續在做了，像對空勤人員，我們現在有一個劑量管理的試辦計畫，我們已經有請一些航空業者配合我們做這方面的研究。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，如果你彙整了這個意見之後，應該不會太晚送進立法院吧？我覺得這個防護法還滿重要的，因為它牽涉到很多行業的安全。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，我們會儘速，畢竟還是要經過行政院整個的審議，在此要特別跟委員報告一下。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：我們接下來要請伍麗華委員質詢。在吳沛憶委員質詢之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5b1c15e140688363b9742596ee20a55b8c2be5dfb0591b1bfb2b7e68c96004cff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:35:10 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我們都知道無論是台美零關稅或者是非關稅的貿易障礙我國的農業都會受到重大的一個影響所以本席首先要請問在4月15號的時候農業部 次長在這邊農業部長陳俊濟在立法院答詢的時候他就說了不會把農業議題推到第一線"},{"start":57.5,"end":61.483,"text":"來跟美方來談判 絕對不會犧牲了農漁民的一個權益將其作為談判的籌碼但是到了21號呢 那院長卓榮泰又說了農業談判一直是很大的重點政府會以民眾的健康 引用國際的標準來做橫頻的考量"},{"start":79.375,"end":92.62,"text":"但是我們看到據報導有學者認為美方的目的遠不止只有要降低關稅喔而是希望我們要開放更多的農產品的市場那請問是如此嗎"},{"start":94.611,"end":121.323,"text":"謝謝委員關心 那特別是我們在農業的部分委員從我們的農業觀察 尤其是我們的農業就農業部來講 肯定是要守住我們的農業的最大利益那兩件事情跟委員報告 第一個美國對台灣的農產品其實享有順差28億美元我想這件事情我們一定會讓美方知道不是沒有買 我們其實買很多買到美國對我們台灣是有順差 這是第一點那第二點 台美之間的農產品貿易其實是互補的"},{"start":121.923,"end":145.929,"text":"那對於淨化作業是黃小玉我們出口是我們的強項產品比方說是蝴蝶蘭或是我們的漁產品所以兩方是互補的我想這件事我們也會跟美方講是就講我們目前對待他的方式是如何但是請針對本席的提問美方目前為止是不是不只是降低關稅而是希望開放更多的農產品市長沒有收到這樣的訊息來談判辦公室"},{"start":149.691,"end":166.867,"text":"方向是如何呢謝謝委員因為我們現在如同我剛才提到我們台美的談判當然都還是在進行當中那我們現在只能說從美國一開始川普政府所提出來的訴求降低關稅解決非關稅貿易障礙以及降低他"},{"start":167.907,"end":179.134,"text":"貿易逆差這都是他的訴求所以他這個訴求是不分工業產品農業產品都是一體式所以有這個可能喔他不只是要降低關稅而且要增加更多的農產品市場的這個市場如果為了解決他的貿易逆差當然這個是一個可能的一個方向因為我們要防範才能夠去應對所以就成如我們看到日本日本在之前就要將增加美國米進口作為談判的籌碼"},{"start":197.265,"end":202.047,"text":"所以引發了他們國內的一個反對因為這會導致日本稻農它的數量會下降所以在這樣的情況之下 本席要請教就像美豬牛鬆綁以及基改食品的開放那麼農業零關稅等是不是現在是成為我們台美談判的重點美方是不是如此 請教談判辦公室"},{"start":223.317,"end":238.474,"text":"我想我們跟美國之間的這些談判呢除了討論到這些農產品的市場開放問題但是很重要的另外一個是我們要去考量我們自己國內的產業發展以及我們本身還有這些國人的健康跟糧食安全的考量"},{"start":238.914,"end":256.984,"text":"好 非常感謝你說必須要考量到我們我們也不希望本席特別舉日本的例子國內的反對那我們更應當要保護我們自己的產業這是非常非常的重要所以我本席再次請問我方的立場究竟是如何 唐麥麥老師"},{"start":258.872,"end":279.09,"text":"我想我們都是跟我們的我們這個談判團隊各有分工所以我們就是協調我們的農工部門共同來討論這些各個關稅跟非關稅議題的立場然後我們再來決定一個最符合台灣利益的保護我國國內的農業那請教農業部市長我方的立場"},{"start":280.819,"end":302.868,"text":"就農業玻璃廠當然是以農業為最優先要守護的一定要全力以赴本席強調我們不能只有用GDP的數值來看農業農業它不是只有一個單一的一個產業因為它攸關了糧食的安全生態文化不該輕易的放棄讓步這絕對不可以所以在非關稅貿易障礙的"},{"start":304.629,"end":309.633,"text":"當中跟零關稅的部分我們絕對不可以輕易來犧牲食安跟我們的農業那所以根據美國2025年各國貿易障礙評估的報告我們台灣僅能夠進口30個月以上的美國牛肉但是禁止進口這個絞牛肉而且嚴格的檢驗牛的內臟"},{"start":327.105,"end":343.536,"text":"以及豬肉則是以國際標準不符的方式來檢驗萊克多巴胺而且我們必須要要求一定要標示產地對不對目前我們的作為是如此但是這些皆被任美方視為非關稅貿易的障礙所以本校請問美豬美牛可能因為關稅談判來鬆綁會取消標示產地嗎請做說明"},{"start":355.489,"end":383.499,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心 我想我們站在衛福部的立場 我們會提供這是一個談判是一個團隊剛剛談判這邊的代表也有講我們收集所有的專業 站在維護人民的健康尤其在衛福部我們對於食安方面的堅持提供專業的科學的分析然後大概也去了解國際的標準這樣來提供"},{"start":384.479,"end":389.582,"text":"細節部長的說明因為產品產地的標示不應該成為談判的一個籌碼這個是非常的重要因為在2021年當中進口萊豬食對台灣豬農跟消費者的承諾如果棄守是社會沒有辦法接受的所以本席也強調美方也希望要開放我們的基改食品"},{"start":411.235,"end":418.897,"text":"那立法院也通過提案學童健康安全是全民的底線並非單純的貿易議題絕不能拿學童健康作為談判的籌碼並且要堅持依據我們學校衛生法不開放基改食品進校園這也是本席的一個堅持請教政府是不是我們堅持承諾絕不開放基改的食品進入校園請教"},{"start":443.898,"end":469.753,"text":"堅持給我們學童最安全的一個食品是我們一不變的道理不變的堅持而且我們會依據科學的分析來提供給我們所有的政策一定要堅持這一點是我們絕對不可以妥協基改的食品絕對不能進校園這是我們一定要好好來維護我們全國的學童的一個食安安全"},{"start":471.991,"end":472.012,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時35分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。邀請農業部次長還有談判辦公室的代表，以及邱部長，我們就一起討論。如果我們討論到哪一個議題，就請相關單位主動回答，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。我們都知道，無論是臺美零關稅或者是非關稅貿易障礙，我國的農業都會受到重大的影響，所以本席首先要請問，在4月15號的時候，次長在這邊，農業部長陳駿季在立法院答詢時就說了，不會把農業議題推到第一線跟美方談判，絕對不會犧牲農漁民的權益，將其作為談判的籌碼。但是到了21號，院長卓榮泰又說了，農業談判一直是很大的重點，政府會以民眾健康、引用國際標準等做衡平考量。但是我們看到，據報導有學者認為美方的目的遠不只有要降低關稅，而是希望我們開放更多的農產品市場，請問是如此嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，特別是在農業的部分，委員從農業縣出來，最支持我們的農業。就農業部來講，肯定是要守住我們農業的最大利益。兩件事情跟委員報告，第一個，美國對臺灣的農產品其實享有順差28億美元，我想這件事情我們一定會讓美方知道，不是沒有買，我們其實買很多，買到美國對我們臺灣是有順差，這是第一點。第二點，臺美之間的農產品貿易其實是互補的，我們對他們進口的很多是黃、小、玉，我們出口是我們的強項產品，比方蝴蝶蘭、漁產品，所以兩方是互補的，我想這件事我們也會跟美方講。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就講我們目前對待他的方式是如何，但是請針對本席的提問，美方目前為止是不是不只是降低關稅，而是希望開放更多的農產品市場？"],["杜次長文珍：沒有收到這樣的訊息。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒收到訊息？來，談判辦公室，方向是如何呢？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員。如同我剛才提到，臺美談判當然都還是在進行當中。那我們現在只能說，從美國川普政府一開始所提出的訴求，降低關稅、解決非關稅貿易障礙，以及降低他的貿易逆差，這都是他的訴求，所以他這個訴求是不分工業產品、農業產品都一體適用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以有這個可能喔？他不只是要降低關稅，而且要增加更多的農產品市場，有這個可能？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：如果為了解決他的貿易逆差，當然這是可能的一個方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們要防範才能夠去應對。誠如我們看到的，日本在之前就要將增加美國米進口作為談判的籌碼，引發了他們國內的反對，因為這會導致日本稻農的數量下降。所以在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，就像美豬牛鬆綁以及基改食品的開放，那麼農業這個零關稅等，是不是現在成為臺美談判的重點，美方是不是如此？請教談判辦公室。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想我們跟美國之間的這些談判，除了討論到這些農產品的市場開放問題，但很重要的另外一個是我們要去考量我們自己國內的產業發展，以及我們本身還有這些國人的健康跟糧食安全的考量，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常感謝你說必須要考量到我們，我們也不希望，本席特別舉日本的例子、國內反對，那我們更應當要保護我們自己的產業。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是非常非常重要，所以本席再一次請問，我方的立場究竟是如何？談判辦公室。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們這個談判團隊各有分工，所以我們就是協調我們的農工部門共同來討論各個關稅跟非關稅議題的立場，然後我們再來決定最符合臺灣利益的一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：保護我國國內的農業。那請教農業部，次長，我方的立場？"],["杜次長文珍：就農業部的立場，當然是以農業為最優先、要守護的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要全力以赴。"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席強調，我們不能只有用GDP數值來看農業，農業不是只有單一的一個產業，因為它攸關農糧食的安全、生態、文化，不該輕易放棄、讓步，這絕對不可以。所以在非關稅貿易障礙當中跟零關稅的部分，我們絕對不可以輕易犧牲食安跟我們的農業。根據美國2025年各國貿易障礙評估的報告，我們臺灣僅能夠進口30個月以上的美國牛肉，但是禁止進口絞牛肉，而且嚴格檢驗牛內臟；豬肉則是以與國際標準不符的方式來檢驗萊克多巴胺，而且我們必須要求一定要標示產地，對不對？目前我們的作為是如此，但是這些皆被美方視為非關稅貿易的障礙。所以本席要請問，美豬、美牛可能因為關稅談判鬆綁、會取消標示產地嗎？請做說明。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心。談判是一個團隊，剛剛談判的代表也有講，站在維護人民健康的立場，尤其在衛福部，我們對食安方面的堅持，提供專業的科學分析，大概也去了解國際標準，這樣來提供，看看各種可能性……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝部長的說明，因為產品產地的標示不應該成為談判的一個籌碼，這個是非常重要，在2021年當中，進口萊豬時，對臺灣豬農跟消費者的承諾，如果棄守是社會沒有辦法接受的。所以本席強調，美方也希望要開放基改食品，立法院也通過提案，學童健康安全是全民的底線，並非單純的貿易議題，絕不能拿學童健康作為談判的籌碼，並且要堅持依據我們的學校衛生法，不開放基改食品進校園，這也是本席的一個堅持。請教政府，是不是我們堅持承諾，絕不開放基改食品進入校園？"],["邱部長泰源：堅持給我們學童最安全的食品是我們不變的道理、不變的堅持，而且我們會依據科學的分析，提供給我們所有政策的一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要堅持！一定要堅持，這一點我們絕對不可以妥協，基改的食品絕對不能進校園，我們一定要好好來維護全國學童的食安安全。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5db0bba025748075318c34ac1b6c98163c2be5dfb0591b1bfd3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:30:05 - 10:40:00","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:30:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:40:00+08:00","duration":595,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.40096875,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.083468750000002,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.72409375,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.26721875,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.549093750000004,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.033468750000004,"end":38.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.438468750000006,"end":43.720343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.720343750000005,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.922843750000006,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.42909375,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.91534375,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.96159375,"end":66.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.09221875,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.96534375,"end":71.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.55971875,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.03221875,"end":74.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.51284375,"end":77.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.84159375,"end":78.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.82034375,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.66284375000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.82659375,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.43721875,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.59284375,"end":104.45346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.45346875000001,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.38159375000001,"end":106.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.18721875,"end":114.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.94971875,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.03346875000001,"end":124.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.87221875,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.93096875,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.50034375,"end":130.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.72784375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.03409375,"end":144.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.20659375,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.23159375,"end":153.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.32346875000002,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.11659375000002,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.13346875000002,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.57159375,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.65596875,"end":159.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.05909375000002,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.09284375000001,"end":172.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.56534375,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.55221875,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.75034375,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.88846875000002,"end":191.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.81096875,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.96284375000002,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.61221875,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.64596875,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.57784375,"end":202.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.69971875000002,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.70346875,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.45846875,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.85909375,"end":210.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.77846875,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.68971875000003,"end":227.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.67159375000003,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.07659375,"end":221.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.95721875,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.50534375,"end":235.43721875000003},{"spe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這些情況嗎事實上還是很難因為"},{"start":78.925,"end":104.118,"text":"你太剛性的立法下去以後會讓他地方實務上可能會產生一些執行的困難所以我們才會覺得說比較需要多一點反而是透過行政措施或行政協商盡量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策是順利的在進行是通常會用這樣的方式來進行立法"},{"start":105.567,"end":129.72,"text":"是一個很明確但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準這其實我覺得我們從這個點去思考可能就是會有很大的問題我想再繼續請教一下就是說我們現在解決住宅的問題應該是分成社會住宅一塊"},{"start":131.62,"end":153.155,"text":"然後這個什麼租金補貼或什麼的這其實又是很重要的一塊我們目前台灣是不是大概比較重要是這兩塊來解決住宅的問題是其實基本上大概就是直接興建租金補貼跟包租代管三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群"},{"start":154.318,"end":181.197,"text":"對啦,租金補貼跟包租代管,我認為它的性質比較一樣啦齁不然,我請教你一個就好了齁那你覺得這兩個,兩大支柱啊現在的運行起來,其實有沒有解決了大部分的問題了是不不,我請教一下部長謝謝委員現在除了直接興建住宅以外齁我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來互數"},{"start":182.95,"end":205.075,"text":"已經高達八十五萬也就是說至少有八十五萬戶的人是接受政府的這個社會住宅或是租金補貼的一個協助而且都集中在都會地區比較多六都因為都會比較會需要這個也跟工作性質有關謝謝部長 部長你先回去坐那再來"},{"start":211.843,"end":236.887,"text":"署長這剛剛布宅已經講了解決了大部分但我們必須要承認還有一些不還有一些問題沒有解決像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題在修法的裡面有可能關切一些議題比如說住宿宅的設宅的人我們現在是六年嘛最多嘛可能這個青年人"},{"start":239.382,"end":251.968,"text":"6年他小孩子剛好要上小學了剛好又要搬遷其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊我不知道署長你的看法"},{"start":252.472,"end":275.01,"text":"了解,應該是這麼說,因為有可能他入住的時候,他還單身或是剛要結婚所以他很可能在抽的時候,他去抽了這個單人房但是他已經遇到小孩子出生,要甚至要上小學,他開始要有分房的概念的時候其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已,他還有轉換房型的問題"},{"start":275.911,"end":294.362,"text":"那這就會讓我們現在的這一個直接興建這樣的一個困境會出來就是說你成長的速度還不夠快但是你也面臨了下一輪的問題那所以這也是我們在過程當中一直希望透過像租金補貼包租貸款這一類的輔助性的措施"},{"start":295.822,"end":320.544,"text":"提供更多的行政上的措施來協助他們你不是只有直接興建的可以選擇你也有其他的可以選擇那我們來強化那一個部分讓你在這個轉換的過程當中那當然社宅抽得到最好那抽不到你還有其他的方式來進行那這樣的話能夠讓他的居住的租屋的環境能夠更穩定我想這也是一個比較好的一個替代的做法"},{"start":321.888,"end":327.518,"text":"再一個問題我們弱勢雖然我們現行的法律規定大概40%但實際上"},{"start":332.813,"end":359.653,"text":"也實施好幾年啊他們實際上真正入住的比例是多少我們跟六都都有去調查過了那大概實際上的這個因為他除了弱勢戶以外他還可以抽一半戶所以他等於有兩支籤的機會那所以至少都已經是46到56之間也就是說都是弱勢46到50也就是說正式來講他已經過半了"},{"start":361.6,"end":375.785,"text":"實務上他已經過半了所以這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法若他一樣握有兩支籤他就會可能掏垮六十幾甚至衝到七十這樣的問題會跑出來其實我為什麼要特別問這個問題"},{"start":377.526,"end":391.942,"text":"其實弱勢的定義不一定只有他是中低收入戶其實我們的定義我們現在的法令來講他的範圍蠻廣的啦就弱勢是不是蠻廣的是嘛當然弱勢我們要特別照顧這個"},{"start":393.325,"end":412.329,"text":"沒有話講但以現在實際的執行上來講你說已經超過50而且中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍數字我要跟署長報告一下我跟你說數字是冰冷的啦你剛剛講說46到56其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣這1XXX%很難說服大家但"},{"start":422.891,"end":446.881,"text":"可以有一個很清楚的就是說因為弱勢他是可以抽兩次這個可能大家都不知道很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次所以他的中籤率就會比較高那我們如果說提高到50%我看可能提高到六成那你有一些青年人"},{"start":448.134,"end":472.13,"text":"他可能就被排擠到囉一些青年可能就抽不到囉應該說青年那個族群是更大的一群但是他的種籤率又會越來越低他可能那個種數是更大的但是他可能種籤率會更低這也是我們比較擔憂另一類的排擠的問題我的意思說如果你提高到50%如果這樣的話青年那一塊可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛"},{"start":473.311,"end":498.32,"text":"那所以啦 署長 我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題啦你覺不覺得啦 其實這個社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後 其實到現在啦雖然執政八年 但不可能第一年就做吧 要編預算要編什麼吧大概第二年第三年開始蓋嘛 對不對那到現在也大概有好幾年的時間了嘛 對不對"},{"start":500.017,"end":522.117,"text":"署長 是有沒有需要一個總檢討的時候了就是我們推行一項政策大概一段時間了可不可以去檢討這個政策利弊得失然後我們去再稍微精進你覺得有時間點到了嗎對 根文報告也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪"},{"start":522.897,"end":536.153,"text":"已經就是六年已經處理完畢了已經出租完畢了那都已經進行第二輪那這也是剛好可以總結一些問題的涉宅直接新建涉宅的問題那以及來討論後續的解決對策"},{"start":538.796,"end":563.076,"text":"所以這一個我們會找六都一起來討論看看他們對這一方面的政策甚至回饋到我們整個的直接興建社宅的要面對的問題來做一個總檢討這個部分我們會來進行實際上我真的覺得今天的很多的修法其實有一些觀點它是對的是出現了問題了"},{"start":564.178,"end":588.834,"text":"但你們也說你們也在檢討也在做了我覺得啦與其我們這邊在這樣子我覺得要給你們時間你們弄出一套你們的想法你們的解決對策什麼的來給我們內政委員會然後讓大家來思考如何去改進你覺得可以嗎這個我想我們一定會來會朝這個方向來做可以啦好謝謝"},{"start":592.847,"end":593.31,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":430,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時30分）部長、署長就不用動了啦！"],["主席：好，部長麻煩了。"],["張委員宏陸：我先請教署長，其實我們現在所說的社會住宅，大概有分成中央興建跟地方興建的兩大部分，是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！中央的一些辦法，跟地方的各縣市的辦法，有沒有全國一致？"],["吳署長欣修：目前沒有，因為各地方政府還會有它因地制宜的一些方法。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯啦，其實你說各地方要求跟中央一致，我覺得也不盡合理。你以我們雙北跟其他一般非六都，譬如彰化之類，我看條件都不一樣，也不適合全國都一致啦！問題來了，署長，我想請教，我們今天如果修住宅法，可以解決我說的這些情況嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：事實上還是很難啦！因為太剛性的立法下去以後，實務上可能會讓地方產生一些執行的困難，所以我們才會覺得反而比較需要透過多一點行政措施或行政協商，儘量能夠一方面照顧地方的需求，但是一方面又能夠確保社宅這樣的政策順利的進行，通常會用這樣的方式進行。"],["張委員宏陸：立法是很明確的，但有時候立法又不適合全國一致的標準……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得我們從這個點去思考，可能就是會有很大的問題啦！我想繼續請教，我們現在解決住宅的問題，應該是分成社會住宅一塊，然後租金補貼或什麼的，這其實又是很重要的另一塊，臺灣目前比較重要的，大概是用這兩塊來解決住宅的問題，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是，基本上大概就是直接興建、租金補貼跟包租代管，三個政策來協助所有的租屋族群。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，租金補貼跟包租代管，我認為它的性質比較一樣啦！部長，我請教你一個問題就好，你覺得這兩大支柱，現在運行起來有沒有解決大部分的問題了？我請教一下部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。現在除了直接興建住宅以外，我們包租代管跟租金補貼加起來戶數已經高達85萬，也就是至少有85萬戶的人是接受政府的社會住宅或者租金補貼的協助，而且都集中在都會地區還有六都比較多。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，因為都會區比較需要。"],["劉部長世芳：對，也跟工作性質有關。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝部長，部長先回去坐。再來，署長，剛剛部長已經講解決了大部分的問題，但我們必須要承認，還有一些問題還沒有解決啦！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：像剛剛我看應該有很多人關切到這個議題，在修法裡面也有關切一些議題，比如說住社宅的人，我們現在租期最多是6年嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：青年住6年，他的小孩子剛好要上小學了，剛好又要搬遷，其實這一點倒是可以思考一下如何去補足這一塊吧！我不知道署長您的看法？"],["吳署長欣修：了解，應該是這麼說，因為有可能他入住的時候還單身或是剛要結婚，所以在抽的時候他去抽了單人房，但是他已經遇到小孩子出生，甚至要上小學，開始要有分房的概念，其實那時候就不是社宅續租的問題而已，還有轉換房型的問題，就會讓我們現在直接興建這樣的困境出現，就是社宅成長的速度還不夠快，但是也面臨了下一輪的問題。所以這也是我們在過程當中，一直希望透過像租金補貼、包租代管這一類輔助性的措施，提供更多行政上的措施來協助他們，不是只有直接興建的可以選擇，也有其他的可以選擇。我們來強化那一個部分，讓民眾在轉換的過程當中，當然社宅抽得到最好，抽不到還有其他的方式來進行，這樣能夠讓他居住的、租屋的環境能夠更穩定，我想這也是一個比較好的替代作法。"],["張委員宏陸：好。再一個問題，雖然我們現行法律規定至少40%以上比率要租給弱勢，也實施好幾年了，實際上他們真正入住的比例是多少？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們大概跟六都都有去調查過了，實際上因為他除了弱勢戶以外，還可以抽一般戶，所以他等於有兩支籤的機會，至少都已經是46%到56%之間，也就是說弱勢有46%到56%，正式來講在實務上已經過半了。這也是我們在擔憂這一次的修法，如果他一樣握有兩支籤，可能會超過百分之六十幾，甚至衝到70%，有這樣的問題會跑出來。"],["張委員宏陸：我為什麼特別問這個問題，其實弱勢的定義不一定只有中低收入戶，我們的定義，依現在的法令來講，它的範圍滿廣的啦，就弱勢而言是不是滿廣的？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛，當然弱勢我們要特別照顧，這個沒有話講，但以現在實際的執行來講，你說已經超過五十……"],["吳署長欣修：而且中籤率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍。"],["張委員宏陸：我要跟署長報告一下，數字是冰冷的啦！你剛剛講46%到56%，其實我也覺得這個範圍有點廣，差了10%很難說服大家啦！但有一個很清楚的，就是弱勢可以抽兩次，這個可能大家都不知道，可能很多人不知道他是可以抽兩次的，所以他的中籤率就會比較高。我們如果提高到50%或可能提高到六成，有一些青年可能就會被排擠到囉？一些青年可能就抽不到囉？"],["吳署長欣修：應該說青年那一個族群是更大的一群，但是他的中籤率會越來越低。青年的總數是更大的，但是他中籤率可能會更低，這也是我們比較擔憂另一類排擠的問題。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，我的意思是說，如果你提高到50%這樣的話，青年那一塊，可能青年就很多人抽不到嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以署長，我們剛剛簡單的討論幾個問題，你覺不覺得社會住宅從蔡英文總統開始大力推之後，到現在雖然執政8年，但不可能第1年就做吧！要編預算、要編什麼的，大概第2年、第3年開始蓋，到現在大概也好幾年的時間了，對不對？署長，有沒有到需要做總檢討的時候了？我們推行一項政策一段時間了，可不可以去檢討這個政策的利弊得失，然後我們再稍微精進，你覺得時間點到了嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，跟委員報告，也剛好差不多今年很多社宅都是第一輪，就是6年已經處理完畢、已經出租完畢，都已經進行第二輪，這也剛好可以總結一些直接興建社宅的問題，以及討論後續的解決對策。所以我們會找六都一起來討論，看看他們對於這一方面的政策，甚至回饋到我們整個直接興建社宅要面對的問題來做一個總檢討，這個部分我們會來進行。"],["張委員宏陸：因為時間的關係，我真的覺得今天很多的修法，其實有一些觀點是對的，的確是出現問題了，但你們也說你們有在檢討、有在做了。我覺得與其我們這樣修法，應該要給你們時間，弄出一套你們的想法、你們的解決對策給內政委員會，然後讓大家來思考如何改進，你覺得可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我想我們一定會朝這個方向來做。"],["張委員宏陸：可以啦？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160618","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160618","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e578357bd5f9ef7e7318c34ac1b6c98163c2be5dfb0591b1bf50347cd0a995e7775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:18:16 - 10:29:59","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:18:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:29:59+08:00","duration":703,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.886593750000001,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.254718750000002,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.098468750000002,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.99096875,"end":47.719718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.360968750000005,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.44784375,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.26846875,"end":170.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.93284375000002,"end":169.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.68784375,"end":176.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.19409375,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.26534375,"end":175.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.88096875000002,"end":231.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.81471875000003,"end":196.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.47534375,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.78909375,"end":224.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.82284375,"end":225.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.33284375000002,"end":228.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.88534375,"end":273.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.87034375,"end":272.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.01784375,"end":280.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.38784375,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.96971875,"end":286.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.99909375000004,"end":295.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.50034375,"end":290.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.03534375000004,"end":314.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.90596875,"end":370.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.81471875,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.23034375000003,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.21534375000005,"end":386.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.10971875,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.23784375,"end":407.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.19096875,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.96721875000003,"end":409.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.75596875,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.05971875,"end":427.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.59721875,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.96284375000005,"end":436.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.26659375,"end":456.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.28346875000005,"end":437.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.97221875,"end":464.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":463.57034375,"end":464.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.59971875,"end":464.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.83596875,"end":464.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.86971875,"end":464.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.90346875,"end":468.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.95409375,"end":465.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.00846875,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.97034375000004,"end":536.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.66221875,"end":472.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.9853437500001,"end":541.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.35971875,"end":544.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.63784375,"end":545.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.6840937500001,"end":548.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.18159375,"end":549.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.56534375,"end":551.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.80971875,"end":552.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.1259687500001,"end":557.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.5303437499999,"end":561.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.7490937499999,"end":562.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.0190937500001,"end":566.3897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.42346875,"end":566.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.45721875,"end":566.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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拜託署長"},{"start":271.508,"end":295.211,"text":"可以把這個資料稍微統計一下對跟委員報告我想這個後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論就是說現在有一輪出來了那其實因為這會跟未來社宅的興建的房型對因為我就有統計如果要那的話連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做一些大幅的更動所以我才會說必須要透過一個統整第二個呢因為社宅興建的數量"},{"start":296.092,"end":316.346,"text":"沒有辦法快速的成長那所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊來提升意願也是一個做法所以這個會需要整個政策上的一個整合那整合應該有完整的一個配套而不會說只有反映在單一的興建設宅的這一塊是這個意思那後續我們會後再討論那第二個還是我比較請教就是就現在內政部整個的"},{"start":321.509,"end":346.386,"text":"的概念來講其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅的興建以及包租代管以及租金補貼整體是含在整個的範圍裡面可是我之前一直在討論的點就是說租金大家希望說租金市場越來越透明那這次當然也有提說出來說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字統一去統整說整個租金的整個市場的價格可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼的即時性"},{"start":346.846,"end":358.392,"text":"而且地域性而受到限制所以至於上次有提到請教的一個點就是說租金補貼的數量越來越多可是相對來講租金申報的比例相對來講越來越低這個問題所以當時我們要開始討論是說像我現在有實價登錄房屋買賣的實價登錄"},{"start":363.055,"end":385.562,"text":"要求買賣雙方要付申報的義務那有沒有可能租金租屋補貼的部分未來也有可能比照這個我們的買賣的實價登錄所以是房客還是房東你們有沒有這樣演繹的部分說如果未來可以做申報的話租金租屋市場可能越來越透明而不是有這個政府單位在做後續的統整再來公佈"},{"start":387.162,"end":401.578,"text":"那個也跟委員報告一下這個我們也大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量第一個部分的話有關於租金補貼的民眾其實他不是專業的一個人士所以你要求他去填那些資料可能他資料的"},{"start":402.499,"end":427.845,"text":"填的部分可能正確性就會有問題這是政府要輔導就像之前那個實價登錄也是政府輔導一陣子了嘛好不好那第二個部分的話其實我們租金補貼是要協助民眾來做一個租屋那其實民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關的資料去做揭露以至於他不願意來做一個申請這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些協助的門櫃不過現在應該應該是說現在都是"},{"start":430.887,"end":445.479,"text":"請這個租賃業者來去做實價登錄的一個部分如果租金補貼的話就不會經過業者了解就是說其實現在有一個規定就是有這個申報的一個動作就是這個租賃業者來做申報的一個動作嘛"},{"start":446.139,"end":473.047,"text":"所以就是說我認為政府來這邊部分的說我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做所以你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的一個逐步性的一個措施以及辦法就供你們做參考好不好那個部分的話有關於租金統計的部分我們現在半年固定以後半年也會以後半年都會有一次嗎那當然是希望說可以越平凡是越好區域性也可以越好就是一個區一個區為主"},{"start":474.707,"end":493.11,"text":"好那第三個我還是要請教就是民眾所如果有需要社會住宅就是新建社會住宅的這個民眾所長期還是要請教署長的問題就是說現在這其實排隊還是排非常的久那當然剛剛有提到的一個問題是說就是因為現在數量還是不夠多嘛"},{"start":493.43,"end":509.009,"text":"那我現在請教署長是不是有重複登記因為就我了解如果你現在在入住社會住宅的時候其實你還是可以依照你的需求登記不同的社會住宅比如說我未來有依照我的戶籍或者我的學區或者我自己本身的需求可以登記其他社會住宅"},{"start":511.472,"end":535.036,"text":"這個部分這個國土署後面這部有沒有一個想法說有沒有一個限制就是說我是所有都可以登記還是說我只能限制登記兩三個而不會造成大家每次在領這個號碼牌的時候都是兩三百號兩三百號那個心情會覺得說好像沒有完全看不到一個盡頭那我也認識很多的朋友其實抽社會住宅了以後其實六七年他都抽不到新的社會住宅等等的一個問題那是不是請署長有沒有重複的問題其實對社宅來講因為"},{"start":539.057,"end":543.742,"text":"對很多民眾來講它可能是一個生活圈的概念也就是說或許我住在板橋"},{"start":544.69,"end":572.732,"text":"但是呢他覺得他上班的地方我可能在新莊那我可能在中和所以他可能在選的時候他就會覺得那既然我有我是以生活圈的概念去他可能這幾個區他都去挑那這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他因為從生活圈的概念他是正確的那這也是我們認為說為什麼去主張一個大平台大家都去填反而會造成這個數量是暴增的沒錯就是數量會讓人家覺得有點暴增到會覺得你更難抽"},{"start":573.212,"end":594.581,"text":"那所以才會說我們為什麼在這一方面會很審慎的要繼續評估也就是說因為你很難克服那個地域性它的一個需求那也跟剛剛也有委員提到還有學區的問題有些還會為了學區再特別去加抽好那署長實際的關係就是個問題因為本席的選區在中和啊也常常跟署長會跟這個住宿中心開會那因為我們有11個社會住宅"},{"start":598.222,"end":615.619,"text":"本席是說我大膽做一個建議因為社會自然興建過去可能就是一些國有地可能在做臨時做停車場或是一些綠地的一些部分本席之前都有需要都是有提說其實你們都做得很好就是會有一些比如說這個讓周邊的民眾比如說"},{"start":617.18,"end":632.808,"text":"長照日照或托嬰托幼中心或是李明的共享空間我覺得都很好那可是因為人數在這個空間裡面的人變多了停車需求會變得更高那所以我在想說社會住宅是不是有有可以就是規定說一定的比例"},{"start":633.508,"end":658.924,"text":"就地下室的停車位一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾來使用比如說5%、10%因為我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候一定常常開會的時候都會有討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題你們有沒有可能研議說我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例那邊有沒有在研議說多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民來去做租用"},{"start":659.244,"end":663.024,"text":"然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的一個一個到來"},{"start":664.67,"end":690.956,"text":"的這個建議啦因為其實各地都有類似啦那其實現在的狀況只是因為說涉及到管理問題那所以過去也有曾經有這樣的案例但是事實上後續的管理呃衍生了新的糾紛啦那所以這個部分我們也會委員的建議我想我們會持續來討論尤其是針對某一些個案他如果真的周圍在地這個需求非常強但是實務上要怎麼去處理我想我們都會"},{"start":691.676,"end":700.3,"text":"個案跟住戶中心再來討論看怎麼解決這類問題拜託署長以及住戶中心大家都很辛苦謝謝大家謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝張志仁委員的質詢下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時18分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請劉部長跟吳署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長有請。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長跟署長。今天要討論的是住宅法的修法，其中有一條比較重要的就是第四條，是關於一些家庭總收入平均比較沒有符合主管機關標準的，就是經濟狀況稍微比較差一點的家庭。現在在提案修法的條文裡面，應該是第二項第三款裡面，是不是可以考慮把「育有未成年子女二人以上」改成「育有未成年子女」，就這個部分修法。現在可以看到很多委員提出這樣的修法，就是希望解決現在少子女化的問題。","我們可以看到新北市的社宅在今（114）年1月1日其實也有一個新的規定，新北市政府決定社會住宅招租比例中，會匡列百分之十的名額，提供給育有二名子女以上的家庭做申請，而且採抽籤制。其實不管是在地方，它也是針對有未成年子女的部分鬆綁，讓他可以比較多元的使用。而現在中央的修法是，因為現在有少子女化的問題，根據統計，一個家庭所生育的小孩子不到一人，所以對於這樣的修法，我們希望內政部可以支持，可是沒想到內政部今天提出來的報告卻說你們有你們的立場，希望不予修訂。","所以我剛剛也特別請教衛福部一個問題，現在符合住宅法第四條「育有未成年子女二人以上」的人數是不是越來越少？其實如果把它改成「育有未成年子女」，不會有任何的排擠效果，是不是有這樣的狀況？所以我剛剛有請衛福部來說明這樣人數是不是沒有太大的影響，內政部是不是可以來協助？包括像新北市這樣幫助少子女化的措施，中央的部分是不是內政部可以來協助，也來支持這樣的版本？"],["劉部長世芳：有關剛剛委員所提問的部分，我想先綜合跟委員講一下，新北市政府提出「育有未成年子女二人以上」，表示他有其他母法的支撐，所以他在行政措施上自己就開放了。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯、沒錯，所以他可以匡列的範圍更多。如果中央有修法，地方也可以遵照。"],["劉部長世芳：是，那就是剛剛我們所說的，因為全國有22個縣市，我們如果可以在行政措施上做滾動式調整，然後不要用剛性入法的條件……因為我們剛性入法的條件，到目前為止40%的弱勢戶是110年，修到現在是三年的時間，這個部分也就是剛剛所說的，其實它並不違反住宅法。新北市政府、臺北市政府或是桃園市政府有自己的入住條件或申請條件，其實都不違反住宅法。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，因為他不能違反。"],["劉部長世芳：是，這樣的狀況就是我們剛剛所說的，現在社會住宅興建完成且入住的量還沒有達到一定規模，剛剛我們署長有跟大院報告過，現在六年的時間剛好到一輪的話，是不是我們在蒐整其他縣市政府對這些方面的意見之後，我們再來統一？這樣子我們會更審慎，而不是匆促就入法。"],["張委員智倫：我了解，謝謝部長的回應。我的意思是，因為現在臺灣有少子化的問題，所以育有未成年子女二人以上的家庭數是不是越來越少？如果把它改成「育有未成年子女」，變成一個人也可以申請的話……因為從過去以來，這樣的家庭越來越少，如果我們可以修法的話，其實可以讓更多的家庭，比如說，收入已經低於某一個層級以下的家庭也能夠申請，這樣能申請的總量才不會越來越少。修法完了以後，內政部可以跟衛福部討論一下，如果人數上沒有差距太多的時候，其實我覺得可以支持修法，好不好？拜託署長，可以把這個資料稍微統計一下。"],["吳署長欣修：對，跟委員報告，後續我們也會再做一個統整性的討論。現在有一輪出來了，因為這會跟未來社宅興建的房型……"],["張委員智倫：對，因為我就有統計，其實大家的……"],["吳署長欣修：如果要納的話，連社宅興建的房型那一類的全部都要做大幅的更動，所以我才會說必須要透過統整。第二個，因為社宅興建的數量沒有辦法快速成長，所以可以透過其他的行政措施來彌補這一塊，提升意願也是一個作法，所以這個會需要整個政策上的整合，而整合應該有完整的配套，不會只有反映在單一的興建社宅這一塊，是這個意思。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長，沒關係，後續我們會後再討論。","第二個，我要請教的是，就現在內政部整個的概念來講，其實社會住宅的定義不只有社會住宅興建，還有包租代管及租金補貼，整體是含在整個範圍裡面。可是我之前一直在討論的點就是，大家希望租金市場越來越透明，內政部當然也有提出來，說你們會依照租屋補貼的數字，統一去統整整個租金市場的價格，可是這個東西其實還是沒有那麼即時性，而且地域性也會受到限制。我上次有請教一點，就是租金補貼的數量越來越多，可是租金申報的比例卻是相對越來越低，所以當時我們在討論，像現在房屋買賣有實價登錄，要求買賣雙方要負申報的義務，未來租屋補貼的部分有沒有可能比照買賣的實價登錄？會是由房客還是房東來申報？你們有沒有研議過？如果未來可以申報的話，租屋市場就能夠越來越透明，而不是由政府單位做後續的統整，再來公布。"],["林代理司長家正：也跟委員報告，我們大概評估過可能會有幾個必須要去考量的，第一個部分，有關於租金補貼的民眾，其實他不是專業人士，所以你要求他去填那些資料，可能資料填的正確性就會有問題。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，這是政府要輔導的，就像之前實價登錄也是政府輔導了一陣子嘛。"],["林代理司長家正：第二個部分，租金補貼是要協助民眾租屋，但民眾可能也會顧慮到他的個資或相關資料去揭露，以致於他不願意來申請，這可能也會影響到民眾來申請政府一些補助的美意。"],["張委員智倫：的確啦！應該是說，現在都是請租賃業者做實價登錄的部分。"],["林代理司長家正：如果租金補貼的話，就不會經過業者，就是民眾自己來。"],["張委員智倫：我了解，現在有一個規定，就是要由租賃業者申報。政府針對這個部分，我沒有說馬上就要怎麼做，而是希望你們可以研擬一個未來可以讓整個租屋市場更透明的逐步性措施及辦法。這供你們參考，好不好？"],["林代理司長家正：有關於租金統計的部分，我們是固定以後半年也會持續做。"],["張委員智倫：以後半年都會有一次嘛？"],["林代理司長家正：是。"],["張委員智倫：當然是希望可以越頻繁越好……"],["林代理司長家正：會，分析資料的參考性會讓它的資料更完整……"],["張委員智倫：區域性也可以越好，就是以一個區、一個區為主。","第三個，我還是要請教，民眾如果有需要社會住宅，要請教署長的問題就是，現在其實排隊還是排非常久，當然剛剛有提到的問題是，因為現在數量還是不夠多。我現在請教署長，是不是有重複登記的問題？因為就我了解，如果你現在要入住社會住宅，其實你還是可以依照自己的需求，登記不同的社會住宅。比如說，我未來可以依照我的戶籍、我的學區或者我自己本身的需求，登記入住其他的社會住宅。這個部分國土署或內政部有沒有一個想法，就是有沒有一個限制？我是所有都可以登記，還是只能先去登記兩、三個？這樣才不會造成大家每次在領號碼牌的時候，每次都是兩、三百號，那個心情會覺得好像完全看不到盡頭。我也認識很多朋友，他們登記抽社會住宅之後，等了六、七年都還有抽不到新的社會住宅等等的問題。請教署長，有沒有重複的問題？"],["吳署長欣修：其實以社宅來講，因為對很多民眾來講，可能是一個生活圈的概念，也就是說，或許他住在板橋，但是他上班的地方可能在新莊或可能在中和，所以他在選的時候就會覺得，既然他是以生活圈的概念去選，可能這幾個區他統統都去挑。這個我們也沒辦法去禁止他，因為從生活圈的概念來看，他是正確的，這也是我們認為如果主張一個大平臺讓大家去填，反而會造成數量是暴增的。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，就是數量會讓人家覺得有點……"],["吳署長欣修：暴增到會覺得你更難抽。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我們才會說為什麼在這一方面要很審慎的繼續評估，因為你很難克服地域性的需求。剛剛也有委員提到，還有學區的問題，有些人還會為了學區再特別去加抽。"],["張委員智倫：署長，因為時間的關係，最後一個問題。本席的選區在中和，也常常跟署長或住都中心開會，因為我們有11個社會住宅，本席大膽提一個建議。社會住宅的興建，過去可能都是國有地臨時做停車場或是綠地的部分。本席之前就有提到，其實你們都做得很好，都會建置一些讓周邊民眾使用的設施，比如說，長照、日照、托嬰、托幼中心或是里民的共享空間，我覺得都很好，可是當這個空間裡面的人變多了，停車需求會變得更高。所以我在想，社會住宅是不是可以規定一定的比例，比如地下室停車位有一定的比例可以開放給周邊的民眾使用？比如說5%、10%，有沒有？我相信你們在做社會住宅規劃的時候，常常開會一定都會討論到交通問題、環境問題跟停車問題，你們有沒有可能研議我們的社會住宅有百分之多少的比例，內部有沒有研議多少比例要提供出來給周邊的里民去租用，然後讓大家可以真正更歡迎我們社會住宅的到來？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員的建議，其實各地都有類似，現在的狀況只是因為涉及到管理問題，所以過去也曾經有這樣的案例，但是後續的管理衍生了新的糾紛。所以這個部分，委員的建議我想我們會持續討論，尤其是針對某一些個案，如果真的周圍在地需求非常強，但是實務上要怎麼去處理，我們都會個案跟住都中心再來討論，看怎麼解決這類問題。"],["張委員智倫：好，拜託署長以及住都中心，大家都很辛苦，謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5da2d21a1c855329c18c34ac1b6c98163c2be5dfb0591b1bf06b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:05:46 - 10:18:10","影片長度":"00:12:24","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T10:05:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:18:10+08:00","duration":744,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":4.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.97534375,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.59221875,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.579093750000002,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.89971875,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":47.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.11721875,"end":42.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.58471875,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.086593750000006,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.250968750000006,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.28034375,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.56346875,"end":129.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.91909375,"end":162.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.80346875,"end":160.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.83284375000002,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.55409375000002,"end":164.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.46534375000002,"end":178.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.20659375000002,"end":172.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.59409375,"end":180.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.82159375,"end":182.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.70721875,"end":291.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.60971875,"end":317.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.40221875000003,"end":297.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.43096875000003,"end":302.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.69471875,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.19659375000003,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.00659375000004,"end":397.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.41096875,"end":322.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.88659375000003,"end":331.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.78534375000004,"end":357.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.11221875,"end":404.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.09846875000005,"end":413.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.46846875,"end":428.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.63909375000003,"end":451.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.97596875000005,"end":433.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.99971875000006,"end":445.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.31971875000005,"end":448.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.02784375000005,"end":452.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.06159375000004,"end":452.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.23034375000003,"end":453.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.54659375000006,"end":458.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.84159375,"end":456.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.93846875,"end":465.35909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.59534375000004,"end":467.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.80596875000003,"end":469.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.53971875,"end":502.83846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.66971875,"end":476.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.04971875,"end":501.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.16346875000005,"end":588.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.68596875,"end":588.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.1584687500001,"end":607.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.04159375,"end":619.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.9340937500001,"end":626.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.40221875,"end":622.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.5365937500001,"end":642.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.45159375,"end":629.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.8840937500001,"end":694.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.11221875,"end":696.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.05284375,"end":699.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.34346875,"end":704.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.190968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謝謝主席主席我覺得這個主持議事當然是讓每人盡唱所欲言不過這個時間我是建議也可以控制一下剛剛前一位可能相對來講久了一點我們不希望每個人都這麼久對 但是如果等一下有發言比較長的的話主席我想公平對待是比較好一點"},{"start":27.963,"end":48.291,"text":"我們應該該講的就讓大家講嘛但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛對不對對啊今天早上是我簽第二個是其他委員其實是簽錯格子我想好心說讓給他結果這樣我一等多等了快要20分鐘這實在是下次不換了好我們請部長跟署長部長跟署長有請好"},{"start":51.648,"end":73.784,"text":"部長跟署長我覺得每個委員都平大所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況我們當然無可厚非不過身為一個第三屆的區域委員服務新北要十年了我想在這幾年當中陪著我們的行政部門一起在不敢說台灣至少新北各地我們興建了社會住宅"},{"start":75.325,"end":90.905,"text":"光是我服務的樹林英哥我們就有英哥的安居然後樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建我可以看到其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民我們李林長大家都組團組隊非常關心到現場去看"},{"start":94.449,"end":104.72,"text":"其實我看到的是我們每個人都充分的對在地即將成為我們鄰居的這一棟大社宅未來要搬進來的住戶們想像的狀況跟公共有的空間大家都熱烈討論啊而且"},{"start":110.525,"end":130.223,"text":"裡面的社宅到底要拿保留多少成分來做公共建設的部分其實也是跟周邊居民跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府其實都有討論非常的多那個署長我記得很多次根本都是你親自主持的嘛那你要不要跟我們說說看"},{"start":131.924,"end":155.296,"text":"這個簡單說明一下我們在做一個地方的社宅規劃的時候到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府來共同決定設計這一棟社會住宅要長成什麼樣的模要有什麼樣的規模以及設備是 根文報告其實我們在決定在選擇一個地方的時候第一個一定會跟當地的"},{"start":156.136,"end":173.977,"text":"當地的縣市政府一定會先討論大概次數都多少次啊?大概至少六、七次以後然後決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會先了解民眾大概對我們這一塊基地的一些看法公聽會會參與的是哪一些人?"},{"start":174.797,"end":196.525,"text":"就是在地的黎民 而且含周圍可能有30個 甚至包含在地民代嘛所以我才有身份可以進去嘛 民代還有30周圍都會進去討論所以我們從頭跟到尾 光是到底是同樣的公共空間要有是托育 還是托老 還是這個黎民活動中心的替代等等這個每一個都大家非常非常多的討論"},{"start":197.245,"end":217.095,"text":"如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在耐動建物裡面那耐動建物就已經不是社會住宅了所以你必須要取捨取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論本來就是這個樣子的那我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到了什麼樣的東西我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下看委員看的懂看不懂"},{"start":217.775,"end":244.822,"text":"能不能够跟在地平常有连结我觉得你可能要注意一下这个部分不然每个人的经验不太一样也许他没有跟着一栋社宅成长这样的话可能会比较有误会不能理解你的资料这个你可以再讨论一下好那我们再另外来看一下我今天想要问你我在这个提案说明的部分就有说到我们的社会住宅既然是为了要让大家国民可以有事与且尊严所以我们在第四条"},{"start":245.402,"end":269.669,"text":"列舉了經濟及社會弱勢的身份有13類其中的一類是有身心障礙者那我在這裡發現的狀況是因為我們未成年人是不能來申請社宅的嘛所以你的第7類別身心障礙者表示他可以申請那是表示他是成年的好那如果我的家庭當中是我的未成年子女是身心障礙者但"},{"start":270.089,"end":291.526,"text":"因為他未成年啊所以這樣子有身心障礙未成年者的家庭反而就變成不能來做我們現在的社宅申請人我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長請問內政部是否可參考我的建議在這一條你們的態度如何"},{"start":293.179,"end":317.247,"text":"跟委員報告啦,我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的啦是所以這個部分是不是,因為這個原始定義是在跟衛福部討論的是那既然這個中間或許執行上有產生這樣的一個問題這部分是不是,我們是建議先讓我們可以跟衛福部直接透過行政的協商把這一塊直接納進去會更容易,不一定要立法好"},{"start":318.067,"end":334.189,"text":"如果是這樣子的話我是建議這個部分因為它是明確規定這個是可以有文字修正的空間因為它本來就已經是列在法律裡面是入法的樣態但因為我們保障的家庭所以我認為這條有修法的空間"},{"start":334.93,"end":364.45,"text":"好沒有關係因為我們今天只有詢答要到下一次的真正修法之前我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論我們在修法的程序當中可以直接就這個來做這個條文做討論這是第一個第二個的話呢我上次有質詢過我們設宅大概是三年一起然後得續住一次嘛再接續申請一次好可是我們進去之後常常是年輕人年輕的夫妻那他們可能有了小朋友小朋友"},{"start":365.351,"end":382.629,"text":"長大剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段那麼在入小學的階段我戶籍在哪裡就會非常非常的牽涉到你實際居住地碼然後你的申請學校是哪一間這就是入學規定的狀況"},{"start":383.45,"end":403.219,"text":"那當然也還有在小學的過程當中如果你換了居住地址了之後是否有要轉學的部分當然那是另外一件事情但剛剛在入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候所以我曾經提出考慮就是詢問這個內政部"},{"start":405.22,"end":434.487,"text":"在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮您的意見如何跟我們報告的確啦因為在很多家庭來講在面臨學齡尤其學齡到了他必須要有準備入學的這樣一個狀態下那這個的確是對於社宅的條件他可能會有更強烈的需求包含他可能連房型他都有不一樣的需求"},{"start":435.227,"end":453.121,"text":"對那但是因為所現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多那如果就升多周少嘛就是目前的狀況嘛持續延長就會讓下一輪的會變少沒有錯啊但是在行政措施上當然第二個也有可能他要考慮學區對他也可能必須要搬離"},{"start":453.601,"end":468.93,"text":"因為剛好就是我們最卡關的時候那個就是在決定要唸哪一間小學的時候所以有關這一點我們也參考了委員大家的一個建議啦就是說針對這一個婚育家尤其是育有未成年子女的家庭的部分那這個部分呢我們會"},{"start":470.798,"end":497.517,"text":"我們是比較目前朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定的數量的時候我們是不是來考慮來訂定相關的一個專案的一個政策來協助這些育有未成年家庭的他能夠更安定那不一定是在社宅裡面他可能在其他租金補貼或什麼他享有更好的這個照顧讓他能夠放心的即便我是要挑學區我不住社宅了我還是可以"},{"start":497.937,"end":514.994,"text":"找到適合的房子那得到政府更多的補助我了解你也注意到這個問題我這樣可以感受到一你有注意到這個問題二你也有在想對策啦但我們因為詢答的時間就是這麼短可能沒有辦法講得很清楚所以我想這個用這兩個題目來跟內政部這邊交換意見的其實是"},{"start":518.758,"end":535.278,"text":"社宅大家都喜歡因為他照顧到了經濟弱勢那或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群好大家都喜歡的狀況下社宅現在正在興建但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者"},{"start":535.979,"end":564.105,"text":"所以當然就會產生了很多的從入住條件開始一直到續住條件還有中間的租金等等這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見可是我必須說如果是我們用這樣的一部法律來規定的話就必須要注意到法是強制到社會的每一個面向每一個地理位置每一個溫層不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了所以我注意到剛剛署長"},{"start":565.425,"end":587.891,"text":"部長有提到你提到了行政措施這個概念也就是說在我的觀察來講因為問題太多太細太繁雜了所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面需要為行政行政措施保留一個空間這是你剛剛的意思嗎我解讀起來是這樣"},{"start":588.371,"end":606.505,"text":"各位委員包括我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法行政措施上能夠針對每個時期不同的需求我們去做一些彈性的一個修正那但是因為立法是比較剛性的一旦做了就是在一定的期間變成全國通他不能隨意更動"},{"start":607.025,"end":622.705,"text":"好 那署長因為我們已經討論多次不只是在這個質詢台上面啦所以那我今天具體的要求是不是可以請部長署長這邊喔我們社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間了吧現在大概是已經六年了六年剛好就是第一輪"},{"start":623.286,"end":641.151,"text":"第一輪的這個入住社宅的在就是包括三年加三年續住的這樣叫做第一輪嘛剛好完成嘛所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討的階段你是不是能夠把這一個第一輪完成的狀況到底發生了哪一些問題然後你現在提出的哪一些對策是不是可以列舉並且"},{"start":643.152,"end":671.624,"text":"並且我是強烈的建議把各縣市政府就是六都因為六都有時候是自己興建的會有自己的規定那六都以外的大概是中央代為興建所以會有很多不同的規定同一個問題會有不同的規定比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況還有租金也會不太一樣的狀況那是不是可以請你把這些所有目前的社會住宅的相關規定以及它的優劣意見整理列表"},{"start":672.684,"end":699.217,"text":"讓我們在修法的過程中一起來討論哪一些是繼續保留行政措施讓它有彈性有空間甚至可以因地制宜縣市不同有不同的規定那哪一些又是覺得已經都這個實施下來都很棒應該要調整那我們就讓它剛性入法全國統一也不會優惠措施不一樣我想提這個建議不曉得部長署長覺得如何其實感謝 感謝委員其實我們"},{"start":700.57,"end":721.734,"text":"委員提這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的應該要趁著這一輪已經做已經租完一輪了然後把所有的問題都彙整那我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平台的會議那我們這就把它從現在就開始去收集這些議題在大平台會議去討論把它聚焦以後"},{"start":722.294,"end":743.152,"text":"那其實都可以提供給大院裡面這邊我是希望這個資料可以盡快提出因為如果我們要修法的話一定是要有這份的資料主席你站起來的話這樣就沒意思了你不要亂動啊我自己說謝謝就好我有看時間啊好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧慧委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時5分）謝謝主席。主席，我覺得主持議事當然是讓每個人暢所欲言，不過我是建議可以控制一下時間，剛剛前一位可能相對講久了一點，我們不希望每個人都這麼久，如果等一下有發言比較長的話，主席，我想公平對待是比較好一點。"],["主席：會，我們該講的就讓大家講，該提醒的時候……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但重複的就不用再一直重複了嘛，對不對？"],["主席：對啦，提醒……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！今天早上我是第二個簽到的，其他委員其實是簽錯格子，我想說好心讓給他，結果是這樣，我一等多等了快要20分鐘，這實在是……"],["主席：下次不換。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，下次不換了。","我們請部長跟署長。"],["主席：部長跟署長有請。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，部長跟署長，我覺得每個委員都一樣大，所以每個委員就他的觀察來描述狀況，我們當然無可厚非，不過，身為一個第3屆的區域委員服務新北市要十年了，我想在這幾年當中陪著我們行政部門，不敢說臺灣，至少新北市各地我們興建了社會住宅，光是我服務的樹林、鶯歌，我們就有鶯歌安居，樹林也有這樣的社會住宅在興建。我可以看到，其實你們每一場說明會都是跟著在地居民、里鄰長，大家都組團、組隊非常關心到現場去看。其實我看到的是，我們每個人都充分地對在地即將成為鄰居的這一棟大社宅，未來要搬進來的住戶、想像的狀況跟公共的空間，大家都熱烈討論啊！而且社宅要到底要保留多少成分拿來做公共建設，其實也有跟周邊居民、跟新北市政府也就是所謂的在地政府都有非常多的討論。署長，我記得很多次都是你親自主持的，你要不要跟我們簡單說明一下，在做地方的社宅規劃的時候，到底是怎麼跟周邊以及在地政府共同決定、設計，這一棟社會住宅要有什麼樣的規模以及設備？"],["吳署長欣修：是，跟委員報告，其實我們決定選擇一個地方的時候，第一個，一定會跟當地的縣市政府先討論……"],["蘇委員巧慧：大概次數都多少次？"],["吳署長欣修：大概至少6、7次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！參與的人呢？"],["吳署長欣修：決定以後還會在地方先開公聽會，先了解民眾對我們這塊基地的一些看法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：參與公聽會的是哪一些人？"],["吳署長欣修：就是在地的里民，而且含周圍可能30個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：甚至包含在地民代嘛！所以我才有身分可以進去。"],["吳署長欣修：民代會進去，還有周圍都會進去討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們從頭跟到尾，光是同樣的公共空間要有托育，還是托老，還是里民活動中心的替代等等，每一個都引起大家非常多的討論，如果你要把所有的公共建設都放在那棟建物裡面，那麼那棟建物就已經不是社會住宅了，所以你必須要取捨，取捨的過程就是大家共同來討論，本來就是這個樣子的。我是不曉得其他委員到底是看到什麼樣的東西，我想你唯一要檢討的可能是給委員看的東西你可能要特別注意一下，看委員看得懂、看不懂，能不能夠跟在地平常有連結，我覺得你可能要注意這個部分，不然每個人的經驗不太一樣，也許他沒有跟著一棟社宅成長，這樣的話可能會比較有誤會，不能理解你的資料，這個你可以再討論一下。","我們另外再來看一下，我在提案說明的部分有說到，我們的社會住宅既然是為了要讓國民居住於適宜之住宅且有尊嚴，所以在第四條列舉了13類經濟及社會弱勢者的身分，其中一類是身心障礙者。我在這裡發現的狀況是，因為未成年人是不能來申請社宅的，所以第七類別──身心障礙者，他可以申請，那表示他是成年的。如果我的家庭當中的未成年子女是身心障礙者，但因為他未成年，所以有未成年身心障礙者的家庭反而就變成不能作為現在的社宅申請人。我認為這個地方是可以斟酌的，所以我今天直接在質詢的過程中提問部長及署長，請問內政部是否可以參考我的建議？在這一條你們的態度如何？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我想這個是實際執行上我們要去注意的，因為這個原始定義是跟衛福部討論的，既然在執行上或許有產生這樣的一個問題，這個部分我們是建議，先讓我們跟衛福部透過行政協商，把這一塊直接納進去會更容易，不一定要立法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，如果是這樣子的話，我是建議，這個部分是明確規定，這個可以有文字修正的空間，因為它本來就已經列在法律裡面，是入法的樣態，但因為我們保障的是家庭，所以我認為這條有修法的空間。沒有關係，因為我們今天只有詢答，到下一次真正修法之前，我希望內政部跟衛福部可以進行過討論，我們在修法的程序當中，可以直接就這個條文討論，這是第一個。","第二個，我上次有質詢過，我們的社宅大概是3年一期，得續住一次、再接續申請一次，可是進去的人常常是年輕人、年輕的夫妻，他們可能有了小朋友，小朋友長大，剛好6歲左右的時候是要申請入小學的階段，在入小學的階段，他的戶籍在哪裡就會涉及實際居住地可以申請的學校是哪一間，這就是入學規定的狀況。當然，還有在小學的過程當中，如果你換了居住地址之後是否有要轉學，當然那是另外一件事情，但剛剛提到入學的那個門檻確實是一個家長最需要安定的時候，所以我曾經詢問內政部，在這樣有學齡兒童的狀況，他的入住條件或續住條件是否可以再考慮，您的意見如何？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，的確啦！因為對很多家庭來講，面臨學齡到了，他必須要準備入學的狀態下，對於社宅的條件可能會有更強烈的需求，可能連對房型都有不一樣的需求。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["吳署長欣修：但是現在的問題也在於社宅的總數其實還不到那麼多，如果……"],["蘇委員巧慧：僧多粥少就是目前的狀況嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：所以如果持續延長，就會讓下一輪的變少……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯啊！"],["吳署長欣修：但是在行政措施上，當然第二個也有可能因為他要考慮學區，他也可能必須要搬離。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為剛好就是最卡關的時候，那個就是在決定要念哪一所小學的時候。"],["吳署長欣修：有關這一點我們也參考了委員們的建議，針對婚育家庭，尤其是育有未成年子女家庭的部分，我們目前是比較朝向在社宅的總數還沒有辦法衝到一定數量的時候，我們是不是考慮訂定一個相關的專案政策，協助這些育有未成年子女的家庭，讓他能夠更安定，不一定是在社宅裡面，可能在其他租金補貼或其他部分讓他享有更好的照顧，讓他能夠放心。即便他要挑學區，不住社宅了，還是可以找到適合的房子，得到政府更多的補助，這樣的話我們也來……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我了解你也注意到這個問題，我可以感受到，一、你有注意到這個問題；二、你也有在想對策。但因為詢答的時間就是這麼短，可能沒有辦法講得很清楚，所以我想用這兩個題目跟內政部交換意見的其實是，社宅大家都喜歡，因為它照顧到經濟弱勢，或者是現在社會弱勢最需要居住正義的族群。在大家都喜歡的狀況下，社宅現在正在興建，但還沒有到足以應付所有的需求者，所以當然就會產生很多的意見，從入住條件開始，一直到續住條件，還有中間的租金等等，這一些面向大家都會有很多不同的意見。可是我必須說，如果我們用這樣的一部法律規定的話就必須要注意到，法是強制到社會的每一個面向、每一個地理位置、每一個溫層，不同的區塊層面通通都規範到了。我注意到剛剛署長、部長也有提到行政措施這個概念，也就是說，在我的觀察來講，因為問題太多、太細、太繁雜了，所以你剛剛的說法是不是在社會住宅的這個政策上面，需要為行政措施保留一個空間？這是你剛剛的意思嗎？我解讀起來是這樣。"],["吳署長欣修：對，跟委員報告，我們也是希望透過比較多的行政措施而不是立法，行政措施能夠針對每個時期不同的需求，我們去做一些彈性的修正。但是因為立法是比較剛性的，一旦做了，在一定的期間就是變成全國通用，它不能隨意更動。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，因為我們已經討論多次，不只是在這個質詢臺上面，所以我今天具體的要求，是不是可以請部長、署長，我們的社會住宅應該也實施了一段時間，現在大概是多久？"],["吳署長欣修：已經6年了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：6年剛好……"],["吳署長欣修：就是第一輪入住社宅的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：就是包括3年，加3年續住的，這樣叫做第一輪，剛好完成，所以我覺得現在是一個很好的檢討階段，你是不是能夠把第一輪的狀況，到底發生了哪一些問題、你現在提出了哪一些對策都列舉出來？我是強烈的建議，把各縣市政府……因為六都有時候是自己興建的，會有自己的規定；六都以外的大概就是中央代為興建，所以對於同一個問題會有很多不同的規定。比如說學齡兒童可能就有不太一樣的狀況，還有租金也有不太一樣的狀況。是不是可以請你把目前這些所有社會住宅的相關規定，以及它的優劣意見整理列表，讓我們在修法的過程中一起討論，哪一些是繼續保留行政措施，讓它有彈性、有空間，甚至可以因地制宜，依縣市不同有不同的規定；哪一些又覺得實施下來已經都很棒，應該要調整，那我們就讓它剛性入法，全國統一，也不會優惠措施不一樣，我想提這個建議，不曉得部長、署長覺得如何？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實委員提的這個建議也是我們最近有在思考的，應該要趁著這一輪已經租完一輪了，把所有的問題都彙整。我們本來每半年都會有一個縣市的大平臺會議，我們從現在就開始去蒐集這些議題，在大平臺會議去討論，把它聚焦以後，其實都可以提供給大院參考。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我是希望這個資料可以儘快提出，因為如果我們要修法的話，一定是要有這份資料。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主席站起來的話，這樣就沒意思了，你不要亂動，我自己說謝謝就好，我有看時間。謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5aa13875160193db118c34ac1b6c98163c2be5dfb0591b1bf36b710c635f0fc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:51:39 - 10:05:40","影片長度":"00:14:01","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:51:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T10:05:40+08:00","duration":841,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.624718750000001,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.56971875,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":10.392218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.91784375,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.34721875,"end":36.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.594718750000006,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.68596875,"end":55.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":56.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.81096875,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.00471875,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.44409375000001,"end":85.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.95846875000001,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.87346875,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.97409375000001,"end":119.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.46409375,"end":122.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.13034375000001,"end":123.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.67409375000001,"end":125.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.19284375000001,"end":127.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.41221875000001,"end":125.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.47971875,"end":129.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.47909375,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.27221875,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.82909375,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.86284375,"end":132.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.30534375000002,"end":136.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.04346875000002,"end":137.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.52846875,"end":143.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.16971875000002,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.26596875,"end":146.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.06284375,"end":148.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.21034375000002,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.93159375000002,"end":175.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.08784375000002,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.81346875,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.77909375000002,"end":189.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.09409375,"end":199.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.05034375000002,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.28221875000003,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.03096875,"end":233.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.52596875,"end":236.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.78721875000002,"end":248.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.52784375000002,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.27846875000003,"end":257.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.67846875000004,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.10409375,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.48784375,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.49159375,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.31409375000004,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.08971875000003,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.50284375,"end":291.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.28096875,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.61409375,"end":294.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.39971875000003,"end":342.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.45409375,"end":348.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.61784375,"end":364.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.47596875000005,"end":367.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.90596875,"end":375.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.03971875,"end":376.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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有請部長部長早依據我們政府目的就是在2023年底就是完成我們的新辦的社會住宅還有包租貸款合計20萬戶的住宅"},{"start":28.376,"end":36.438,"text":"但根據2025年第一季的資料說達成就是10萬零剛才說多少10.6萬戶嘛最進度甚至是只有53%此外長期目標在2032年達成50萬戶依然就是平均一年就是1萬戶的速度顯然是幅大的這個"},{"start":57.867,"end":62.908,"text":"福大秉卻無法實現請問我們部長對於此明顯的落差政府是否有加速的機制還有說張這個墓地可以展現或者讓人民繼續失望呢現在我們政府都在造謠騙百姓沒護照其實有護照騙百姓有住宅其實還沒蓋就是這樣子的感覺我們可以回應一下嗎"},{"start":87.626,"end":89.375,"text":"有關住宅的故事我可不可以請出道"},{"start":90.112,"end":117.612,"text":"根委員報告其實我們自始的這個社宅的興建計畫在講的所謂的達成本來就是含這個發包的部分那現在全國現在全國中央的部分大概都已經陸陸續續在進行中的已經有超過了7萬戶以上的這樣的一個興建跟完工的一個數字現在持續還在增加當中那地方的部分到目前為止也有5萬戶的部分現在也在陸續所以"},{"start":118.032,"end":126.645,"text":"原本在講的時候所以我才會報告自始就講的是發包發包就算在裡面發包算在裡面還有在2023年"},{"start":129.542,"end":139.767,"text":"2032年的話是完工到2032年12萬戶是一定會完工是一定會完工所以10年後會完工就是包含在你說的數據裡面是一定要做完工就對了"},{"start":149.952,"end":174.612,"text":"不是 所以我才跟委員報發包會有發包的數量也就是說我們原來在所提到的2032年是25萬戶的直接興建那這個部分都會持續在進行那目前來講在這個在118年到122年我們都陸陸續續就會把這一個部分12萬戶的部分一定都會完工這個部分是沒有問題"},{"start":176.155,"end":199.429,"text":"好 所以說達成就是的目標還差一大截所以我們依據我們內政部的地政司最新的公布在2024年3Q全台房價所比例為10.9倍創歷史最新高的代表說我們家庭需要"},{"start":200.149,"end":209.933,"text":"不吃不喝11年才能买房所以我们全台的房价的负担率为40.28%六都普遍突破50%"},{"start":216.089,"end":233.143,"text":"已经远超过我们国际建议的安全值所以我们在政府除了租金补贴外是否从真正的从房价管控还有我们的市场的资讯要透明去着手"},{"start":234.631,"end":263.312,"text":"所以我们希望说大家就是要不要说就是针对我们租金的部分的话我们是否说有一个结构性的改革计划包含就是抑制投机炒房还有调控建商土地的垄断具体的做法还是说我们在政策行销上就是花把在"},{"start":265.587,"end":267.74,"text":"射箭請教一下"},{"start":274.927,"end":298.675,"text":"報告委員那個對於房價的部分其實行政院有訂定一個健全房市方案那這是由我們內政部、央行還有像財政部相關單位分別從市場面像我們平均地權條例就有兩次打草房的修法那也有一些建議值已經超過我們國際的建議值所以說我們這個就是希望"},{"start":299.855,"end":319.145,"text":"大家就是租得起买得起不是再来报告我们要有一个明确的政策真正的对我们人民有帮助因为目前我们看到的租宅就是标准的不一甚至说部分地区住宅"},{"start":319.685,"end":322.047,"text":"已經接近市場但是呢我們嚴重的背離就是社會住宅的原來應該具備的公益性還有可負擔性但是我們民眾提出的社會住宅修法草案我們民眾黨提出的建議弱勢成豬比例以原本至少"},{"start":343.547,"end":346.368,"text":"40%也提升為至少50%但是政府現在沒有再採用所以說我們的平台登記系統也是沒有看到啟用雖然是說住宅法在25條授權地方政府可以所得的集計調整社會租金"},{"start":368.251,"end":370.376,"text":"涉宅的租金 但縣市定於標準差距真的是很大比如說台北一房"},{"start":377.818,"end":399.66,"text":"租金高达是一房而已9000块但是呢我们屏东不到5000就导致就是租金不一致所以说就是可负担性所以我们要强调的就是照顾弱势为针对就是统一租金计算机制与比例"},{"start":401.622,"end":403.763,"text":"才能達到我們人民的需求不要說中央跟地方資訊落差管理斷層又如何去補助我們上次我們要去就是在新北的時候有去就是去場看"},{"start":418.409,"end":432.379,"text":"我們董建宏市長在社會租宅的公聽會中也說有承諾社會租宅租金所得的分級會在年底前會公布 請問有沒有具體的時間我們認為年底也是太久了 希望說這個會期是不是可以提出"},{"start":441.22,"end":455.658,"text":"好 跟委員報告啦有關於這一個所得分期制的這個部分其實跟地方政府已經陸陸續續大概開過八次的會議了那現在都已經有相關的共識那所以現在正是在草擬這整個的一個作業當中"},{"start":457.04,"end":460.602,"text":"所以什麼時候 日期 時間預計年底還是確定年底你們都預計 討論 再討論 我說我們要預計年底還是確定年底 要有一個明確的時間"},{"start":475.45,"end":497.489,"text":"就是預計年底之前都是預計 每天都預計在研議工作就是這樣 預計在研議應該是說明 因為各縣市的差異仍然存在我上次有去新北市的場勘的時候每一棟社會住宅 從北到南 只有一個建商在管理"},{"start":498.385,"end":502.947,"text":"所以就慢半拍嘛所以呢每一間的進度就是沒有達到60到70%現場我們張宏祿委員還說如果是照我們建築的規定"},{"start":516.175,"end":543.695,"text":"早就要给他们罚款了但是你们还是一样没有在做管理所以呢我们实际上也没有达到这个目的我们一般我们不管是买房还是租房都会介绍说我们的房子的周边10到20分钟我们有什么措施这样子的比如市场啊学校啊公车站啊或者长照幼照啊公约区等等工作的地方"},{"start":544.355,"end":564.448,"text":"但是我看到你們的把整個是什麼社會住宅在中間把整個新北市所有的措施把它放在裡面所以我覺得好奇怪呢您這要要給人家就是這個社會住宅的周邊去調查你們不是把整個放在裡面這樣子"},{"start":566.269,"end":571.831,"text":"就糊弄我們而已所以呢還有說我們要問說你要涉這個但是我看到的是這樣子啊還有我們說我們要如何替調查我們社會租宅裡面我們要建的一些公共措施那你們說我們問周邊的鄰居周邊的鄰居住在裡面嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":591.118,"end":609.165,"text":"所以社宅也要跟周圍的鄰居要合目共處所以是要大家所以關鍵為什麼也要周邊區一起融入所以你們要去調查所有的大家的用調查不是只要問周邊周邊沒有住在裡面所以才會有全市全區的一個調查資料調查是問周邊不對啦"},{"start":613.047,"end":615.749,"text":"你聽我講完等一下要跟你回我們要問的大家我們要調查是地理環境的需求這邊已經有了市場了我們就不要建在裡面或者裡面我們附近又長照了我們的社會住宅就不要去建是這樣的周邊調查不是去問"},{"start":634.801,"end":654.1,"text":"周邊的人這個社會住宅符不符合他們的需求這樣子的建這個社會住宅是因為我們要變民不是平民不是把社會住宅的人框在裡面我們建這個社會住宅針對這裡面的人的需求但是又空間不夠"},{"start":655.421,"end":682.676,"text":"連我們活動中心有的有幼兒園有的是有長照有的也沒有完全沒有我去看的是這樣所以呢你們口口聲聲說不要分族群不要指的歧視但是你們的行為就是沒有去調查的需求你們就是要把平民貧富差距還有說沒有突破城鄉的差距所以也我們要"},{"start":683.856,"end":695.901,"text":"調查所有的十分鐘二十分鐘的地方有什麼我們這邊就不要見哪裡有什麼這樣子才是真正的辨明讓我們在這邊出的成績但是你給我看到的是這樣你講的跟我看的是完全不一樣所以我們希望說你們做"},{"start":705.844,"end":725.252,"text":"跟講的都不一樣根本這些不但都有而且會跟新北市政府跟地方政府都有去溝通所以也會跟地方政府都有詳細溝通調查的資料如果是真正的居住正義要把青年族群"},{"start":726.152,"end":735.119,"text":"老年族群 還有弱勢族群 新住民的族群平均分配在社會住宅還有說我們不要把社會住宅我們要突破這樣子的領土的差異所以委員這會跟你原來提案的內容就不一致了"},{"start":742.304,"end":744.506,"text":"提案是我們需要更精進但是我看到的我覺得我需要跟你們建議因為我們要脫貧我們不是在2030年還是說我們才建好所以你2030年就是表示說你們希望我們台灣更貧窮嗎"},{"start":766.684,"end":769.646,"text":"我們應該要怎麼樣去脫貧 讓說我們建好的住宅如果是大家你覺得到那時候才可以住的話大家等也要死了 等到那一邊也沒辦法住了所以說我希望說我們讓台灣的年輕人已經不是努力了不努力而可以被這個制度狠狠地去壓垮"},{"start":792.677,"end":801.264,"text":"政府真的想實現居住落差的正義所以請別再就是空放的口號欺騙人民而且拿出具體的行動還有強化執行提高透明化不能再讓年輕人一代就是在社會住宅的路上租不起又買不起"},{"start":813.935,"end":834.44,"text":"就是買五萬這樣子的政策居住正義不是口號希望大家就是我們要怎麼樣符合我們現在的人民的需求不是要去講空話二三十年 十年後才有我們希望的是有真正的脫貧的方案謝謝好 謝謝麥一貞委員 下一位我們請蘇曉輝委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時51分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長早。根據政府目標，在2023年底要達成興辦社會住宅和包租代管合計20萬戶的住宅，但根據2025年第一季資料，僅達成10.6萬戶，進度只有53%。此外，長期目標是要在2032年達成50萬戶，依照目前平均1年增加1萬戶的速度，顯然只會畫大餅，卻無法實現。請問部長，對於如此明顯的落差，政府是否有加速的機制？還是將這個目標展延，讓人民繼續失望呢？現在我們政府都在造謠，騙百姓沒護照，其實有護照；騙百姓有社宅，其實還沒蓋；就是這樣子的感覺！部長可以回應一下嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有關住宅的戶數，我可不可以請署長說明？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們自始的社宅興建計畫在講的達成，本來就是含發包的部分。現在全國中央的部分陸陸續續進行中的已經超過7萬戶以上興建跟完工的數字，現在持續還在增加當中。地方的部分，到目前為止也有5萬戶現在也在陸續……所以原本在講的……"],["麥委員玉珍：已經入住，還是完成？還是在興建中？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才會報告，自始講的就是發包。"],["麥委員玉珍：發包就算在裡面？"],["吳署長欣修：是，自始，就是一開始……"],["麥委員玉珍：發包算在裡面，還有在2023年？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：是這樣子嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：從一開始就是這樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：2032年，不是2023年。"],["吳署長欣修：2032年的話是完工。"],["麥委員玉珍：發包中也含在裡面？"],["吳署長欣修：是。到2032年12萬戶是一定會完工。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以10年後會完工，就是包含在你說的數據裡面？"],["吳署長欣修：是，一定都會……"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣叫做完工就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，所以我才跟委員報告，發包會有發包的數量；也就是說，我們原來在提到的2032年是25萬戶直接興建，這個部分都會持續進行。目前來講，118年到122年，我們陸陸續續就會把12萬戶的部分一定都完工，這個部分沒有問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以說達到目標還差一大截。依據內政部地政司最新公布，2024年Q3全臺房價所得比為10.9倍，創歷史新高，代表家庭需要不吃不喝11年才能買房，且全臺房貸負擔率為40.28%，六都普遍突破50%，已經遠超過國際建議的安全值。政府除了租金補貼外，是否真正從房價管控和市場資訊透明著手？除了租金補貼，政府是否有一個結構性的改革計畫？包含抑制投機炒房與調控建商土地壟斷的具體作法，還是說在政策行銷上是先畫靶再射箭？請教一下。"],["林代理司長家正：報告委員，對於房價的部分，其實行政院有訂定一個健全房市方案，這是由我們內政部、央行，還有財政部等相關單位，分別從市場面因應，像平均地權條例就有兩次打炒房的修法，也有一些金融管制……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但也已經超過國際建議安全值。我們就是希望大家都租得起、買得起，不是來報告而已，要有一個明確的政策，真正對我們人民有幫助。目前我們看到各地社宅租金標準不一，甚至部分地區社宅租金已經接近市價，嚴重悖離社會住宅原來應該具備的公益性和可負擔性。我們民眾黨提出的社會住宅修法草案，建議弱勢承租比率應該從原本的至少40%提升為至少50%，但是政府到現在都沒有採用，平臺登記系統也是沒有看到啟用。雖然住宅法第二十五條授權地方政府可依所得級距調整社宅租金，但各縣市訂定標準差距真的很大，比如臺北一房型租金高達9,000元，但是屏東不到5,000元，導致租金不一致，負擔性不同。政府強調照顧弱勢，但還是不提統一租金計算機制與比例提升議題，要如何才能達到人民的需求？中央跟地方的資訊落差、管理斷層要如何去補強？上次我們去新北，董建宏次長在社會住宅公聽會中，有承諾社會住宅租金所得分級會在年底前公布，請問有沒有具體的時間？我們認為年底太久了，這個會期是不是可以提出？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，有關於所得分級制的部分，其實已經跟地方政府陸陸續續大概開過8次會議了，現在都已經有相關的共識，所以現在正在草擬整個作業當中；第二個……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以什麼時候？日期、時間？"],["吳署長欣修：我們本來就預計年底前一定會提出來，這是第一……"],["麥委員玉珍：預計年底？還是確定年底？"],["吳署長欣修：年底以前。第二個就是說……"],["麥委員玉珍：你們都預計、討論、再討論，我問的是預計年底？還是確定年底？要有一個明確的時間。"],["吳署長欣修：就是預計年底之前。"],["麥委員玉珍：都是預計，每天都是預計、再研議，工作就是這樣預計再研議，應該睡夢中都會講這句話。"],["吳署長欣修：應該就會說明，因為各縣市的差異仍然都存在。"],["麥委員玉珍：我上次去新北市場勘的時候，每一棟社會住宅從北到南只有一個建商在管理，所以就慢半拍嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：不會只有一個建商。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以每一間的進度都沒有達到60到70%，現場張宏陸委員還說，如果是照建築的規定，早就要向他們罰款了，但是你們還是一樣沒有在管理，所以實際上也沒有達到這個目的。一般不管是買房還是租房，都會介紹房子周邊距離10到20分鐘有什麼設施，比如市場、學校、公車站、長照、幼照或工業區等等工作的地方，但是我看到你們把社會住宅放在中間，再將新北市所有的設施當作它的周邊設施，所以我覺得很奇怪，要給人家的是有關這個社會住宅的周邊調查，你們不是，把整個新北市都放在裡面，這樣就是糊弄我們而已。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，社宅調查的這些資料，你剛剛講是最基本的，其實我們是涵蓋整個市的。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我看到是這樣子啊！還有我們要如何去調查社會住宅裡面要建的一些公共設施？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：你們說我們去問周邊的鄰居，周邊的鄰居有住在裡面嗎？沒有嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：其實社宅也要跟周圍的鄰居和睦共處，所以關鍵是為什麼也要跟周邊居民一起融入。"],["麥委員玉珍：和睦共處，你講這個對了，所以你們要去調查所有的，不是只有問周邊，周邊鄰居沒有住在裡面，你們要去調查……"],["吳署長欣修：所以才會有全區的調查資料。"],["麥委員玉珍：去問周邊不對啦！你聽我講完，等一下你再回。我們要調查的是地理環境的需求，例如這邊已經有市場，就不用建在裡面，或者附近就有長照機構，社會住宅內就不用建，是這樣的周邊調查，不是去問周邊的人，這個社會住宅符不符合他們的需求。建社會住宅是因為要便民，不是貧民，不是把人匡在社會住宅裡面，建社會住宅還要符合住在裡面的人的需求。有些社宅的空間不夠，比如活動中心、幼兒園、長照機構，有的社宅有，有的完全沒有，我去看的是這樣，所以你們口口聲聲說不要分族群、不要歧視，但是你們的行為就是沒有去調查需求，並沒有減少貧富和城鄉的差距，所以我們要調查距離社宅10分鐘、20分鐘的範圍已經有什麼設施，我們這邊就不要再建，這樣子才是真正的便民啦！"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實在社宅興建前就已經全部調查完成了。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我看到的是這樣，你講的跟我看到的完全不一樣，所以你們做的跟講的都不一樣，都「捶心肝」。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這些不但都有，而且都有跟地方政府溝通，跟地方政府詳細地溝通後取得調查資料。"],["麥委員玉珍：我實際用眼睛看到的是這樣，那天問出來也是這樣。拜託你們，真正的居住正義是要把青年族群、老年族群、弱勢族群，還有新住民族群平均分配在社會住宅裡，我們要突破貧富差距。"],["吳署長欣修：所以委員，這會跟你原來提案的內容不一致。"],["麥委員玉珍：提案是因為我們需要更精進，但是我實際看到的狀況，我覺得需要給你們建議，因為我們要脫貧，社宅不是在2030年才建好，你們希望臺灣更貧窮嗎？我們應該要想怎麼樣去脫貧，建好的住宅，如果你覺得要等到2030年的時候才可以住的話，大家都要等到餓死了，對不對？等到那個時候也沒辦法住啦！","我認為臺灣的年輕人已經不是不努力，而是被這個制度狠狠壓垮，政府真的想實現居住正義，請別再用空泛的口號欺騙人民，而是拿出具體的行動，還有強化執行、提高透明度，不能再讓這一代年輕人在等待社會住宅的路上住不起又買不起，甚至「買無望」。居住正義不是口號，我們要怎麼樣去符合現在人民的需求，不是只講空話，二、三十年或十年後才有，我們希望的是真正脫貧的方案，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","下一位我們請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5949092262b37b0af18c34ac1b6c98163c2be5dfb0591b1bf46decef9d92b3ed25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:41:22 - 09:51:30","影片長度":"00:10:08","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員王鴻薇等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n\n(僅詢答，第二十一案至第二十五案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。)\n\n【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-24","start_time":"2025-04-24T09:41:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-24T09:51:30+08:00","duration":608,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.99659375,"end":6.578468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.92409375,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.12909375,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.945968750000002,"end":37.290968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.18221875,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.62846875,"end":38.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.01221875,"end":40.345343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.27346875,"end":43.298468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.821593750000005,"end":45.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.33596875,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.32721875,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.81596875,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.13659375,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.165343750000005,"end":61.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.92846875,"end":65.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.17659375000001,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.41221875000001,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.28971875,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.44971875,"end":77.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.30159375000001,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.95971875000001,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.71909375,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.76096875,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.67159375,"end":92.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.96159375,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.01221875,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.99909375,"end":98.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.88909375,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.58346875000001,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.01721875000001,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.09471875,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.98846875,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.97909375,"end":150.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.38721875000002,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.97346875000002,"end":166.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.99846875,"end":154.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.92471875,"end":170.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.33346875,"end":181.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.75346875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.15846875000003,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.57909375,"end":195.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.44346875000002,"end":196.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.86534375000002,"end":197.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.83971875,"end":204.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.28596875000002,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.90971875000002,"end":210.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.85034375,"end":211.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.96846875,"end":213.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.24659375000002,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.63846875000002,"end":218.56221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.01784375000003,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.29971875,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.36721875,"end":224.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.56971875000002,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.60346875000002,"end":224.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.65409375000002,"end":224.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.39221875,"end":236.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.40846875000003,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.19659375,"end":239.53784375},{"spea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本席有請劉部長部長有請"},{"start":13.066,"end":34.244,"text":"您早部長早辛苦了連著兩天首先本席想請教政府之前一直宣稱已經達社宅目標20萬戶但剛剛羅委員也有提到你應該知道目前完工的有多少吧目前完工有入住的是3萬但是再過幾個月的話會達到9萬戶9萬戶預計什麼時候達成"},{"start":41.33,"end":58.999,"text":"我請署長跟您回應一下報告因為我們大概在這個截止到3月底大概中央家地方大概是接近3萬4千戶但是我們陸陸續續在也就是說我們在這一期的計畫就到121年剛剛因為部長有提到即將達到9萬戶那9萬戶是預計什麼時候達成"},{"start":67.233,"end":91.698,"text":"沒有9萬戶是 我說明一下因為我們大概是分期分階段沒關係嘛 9萬戶大概預計什麼時候達成9萬戶的話可能還要再4到5年4到5年 好那為什麼我們政府新聞各方面包含公聽會都一直宣稱說已經達20萬戶說明一下因為我們本來就是在一開始陳報社宅計畫的時候他的定義就是說政府已經發包"},{"start":93.318,"end":112.706,"text":"所以是發包的 20萬戶就發包不一定是完成的那我們因為這樣對整個不管是政府的預計或社會的期待還是有一些落差所以請問部長有沒有在想說如何提升我們社會住宅的"},{"start":113.746,"end":130.978,"text":"還工比率怎麼樣來加速我想委員會常了解蓋社會住宅我們確實要如期如質所以我們現在真的是我們也很急但是蓋的部分就是按照品質要能夠完成可是因為我們剛剛在報告的時候有特別提到百萬戶的租屋家庭計畫裡面"},{"start":132.259,"end":149.867,"text":"就是社會住宅現在的入住率跟完工率沒有那麼 入住率很高啦完工率沒有那麼高的狀況之下像包租代管或者是租金補貼等於是其他的備變的措施啊能夠在那個這樣子的一個緩衝期裡面提供給很多尤其是年輕學子的做這個住屋上面的一個補助"},{"start":150.887,"end":178.929,"text":"好但是我们还是希望看到就是这个的完工的速度能够掌握好那再来一个是完工另外一个就是全国社宅的目标数就是它的需求到至今好像一直没有科学化的调查所以政府是不是有计划全面建置社宅需求的调查平台确保这个数据是比较"},{"start":179.659,"end":208.186,"text":"準確而且透明呢說明一下應該是這麼說因為現在全國的這個社宅大概在六都大概各自有那其實現在的作法您的意思是說六都各自有在掌握對對對那其他縣市呢其他縣市就是有到時候因為都是其他縣市的部分基本上都是中央興建的那當然就我們來我現在是說需求需求度你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":209.156,"end":231.105,"text":"需求度現在是沒有所以是有沒有考慮要掌握呢跟委員報告因為他會跟這個他會跟這個把這個各地方的需求的審查標準其實都不一致因為各地現在都會根據自己的設計狀態那你中央主管機關你有沒有要各地掌握嗎不然你都不知道"},{"start":232.585,"end":251.986,"text":"就有點像市場的需求我們真的民眾的需求那你怎麼去訂定我們的要做的目標應該這麼說因為各地他也會看你的所謂的租金的水準那其實第二個也會跟他現在的所謂的租金的這個所得跟身份的"},{"start":253.137,"end":274.765,"text":"的這個分級制所以他會各縣市會不一樣但是我們身為執政我們中央政府難道我們都不需要掌握到底考慮進去嗎每個地方租金不同每個地方需求不同但我就是要知道大概各地的需求是多少依據他的需求也比較能量身訂做吧"},{"start":275.75,"end":297.308,"text":"也跟我們報告啦因為其實基本上我們先用全國的總量在看的時候我們現在是用一個標準的2.5%不是你全國總量看你可以是六都掌握然後各縣市掌握匯報起來你們整體的掌握所以跟我們報告啦因為我們現在第一步是先用全國的總量的比例來先抓一個總數字"},{"start":298.689,"end":322.582,"text":"然後到各縣市去投入的時候現在是依各地它在一定的人口數以上那我們先去開始進行社宅的投資所以本席請教就是說你們有沒有在進行這種需求的調查平台所以第三個就是現在都有陸陸續續在進行但是就會跟委員報告是說因為我們還要統一訂定它的一個審查標準"},{"start":324.043,"end":340.706,"text":"他的這個資格的審查標準那依據各縣市不同我們會去訂那訂了出來才會讓民眾去登記這件事情所以朝這個方向然後加速來進行嘛我們希望政府一定要掌握需求你才知道怎麼進行嘛好不好"},{"start":341.687,"end":360.918,"text":"那再來想請教就是包租代管中計畫中的仲介業者被指好像經常被指說他是重視數量忽略品質甚至有發生排除高齡或者是單身男性的這種現象所以我們政府有沒有"},{"start":362.158,"end":373.884,"text":"計劃修訂相關的管理規範來提升業者服務的標準並且完善的申訴管道最重要我們也要保障一些弱勢者不被排除這個部分"},{"start":374.984,"end":397.564,"text":"跟委員報告其實在做包租貸款的部分應該關鍵這麼說對仲介業者來講他是負責媒合跟中間的管理所以其實基本上大概也源自於現在的租屋環境很多房東大概有一些房東大概可能對長者他可能擔心他身體有狀況"},{"start":398.645,"end":423.705,"text":"長者還有單身男性為什麼會是單身男性有一些是可能地緣的地緣的關係他才會有這樣的問題有些地緣的關係他擔心男性的話譬如說房東是女性他可能會擔心有一些所以我們大家了解其實對仲介他並不會去排除做這些服務那你們有沒有這個規範相關的管理規範跟我們報告就是說有關租賃方面的一些"},{"start":424.225,"end":425.086,"text":"還有完善的申訴管道"},{"start":454.385,"end":483.378,"text":"最後我們社會住宅的重簽率偏低部長您知道嗎是那有沒有想過怎麼樣來改進其實就是數量不足數量現在還不太夠了所以現在加緊就對了該興建的趕快興建然後有一些可以包租代管的你們這邊做好的這種統整還有一些鼓勵措施剛剛有講好OK那今天到最後"},{"start":484.887,"end":499.428,"text":"我們在各縣市需求納入比較精準的規劃或者是保障有沒有一些配套措施保障弱勢群體的需求"},{"start":500.547,"end":522.99,"text":"優先的被考量報告因為現行的規定就已經有了啦現行的規定它就已經有輸量了就是我們剛一路一直講說要掌握需求嘛有沒有在建這個Data配其實現在的弱勢戶的比例啦還有中遷率其實是高於一般戶啦尤其我們現在有初步統計"},{"start":523.911,"end":548.782,"text":"弱勢戶的在六都現在的狀況它的平均中簽率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍最後就是你們有沒有在建置這個data data base其實資料其實在弱勢戶的部分本來資料都不只弱勢就整個啊我們從我剛剛第一題在問的對就長期的話才要慢慢去你們已經開始建置了嗎對就已經開始在收集資料收集資料對收集資料有沒有時程你什麼時候這種資料庫會建立起來"},{"start":551.623,"end":580.835,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們必須透過行政行政上的作為逐步去強化所以沒有設定什麼時候要做出來那你這樣根本我告訴你明年後年在這個議題在質詢的時候你都還沒見跟報告是本來就有一些資料庫現在是說如果照委員講的要全面照全國都要的話那當然要一些時間因為非六都你站在中央的立場你當然要了解全國的情況是所以我跟委員報告現在六都的部分大家都已經逐步都掌握了"},{"start":581.315,"end":604.459,"text":"但是在非六都的部分會搭配著我們的社宅的主部的完工那其實他就會在當地去收集這樣的一個資訊那這些資訊就會建置成一個平台的一個概念在會上面去統一去做一個資料的一個流通啦好 我們希望盡早看到完善的這個整個資料庫系統還有我們能夠掌握全國的需求 謝謝好 謝謝徐信英委員 下一位我們請麥玉珍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（9時41分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：早。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長早，辛苦了，連著兩天。首先本席想請教，政府之前一直宣稱已經達社宅目標20萬戶，但剛剛羅委員也有提到，你應該知道目前完工的有多少吧？實際完工。"],["劉部長世芳：目前有入住的是3萬，但是再過幾個月會達到9萬戶。"],["徐委員欣瑩：9萬戶預計什麼時候達成？"],["劉部長世芳：我請署長跟您回應一下。"],["吳署長欣修：報告，截至到3月底，中央加地方大概是接近3萬4,000戶，但是我們陸陸續續在……我們在這一期的計畫，到121年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可不可以精簡講？剛剛因為部長有提到即將達到9萬戶，那9萬戶是預計什麼時候達成？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，因為我們大概是分期、分階段。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，9萬戶大概預計什麼時候達成？"],["吳署長欣修：9萬戶的話可能還要再4到5年。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那為什麼我們政府在新聞、各方面，包含公聽會都一直宣稱已經達20萬戶？"],["吳署長欣修：說明一下，因為我們本來一開始呈報社宅計畫的時候，它的定義就是政府已經發包的話就……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是發包的？"],["吳署長欣修：對，已經發包的部分，12萬戶……"],["徐委員欣瑩：20萬戶是已經發包，不一定是完成的。"],["吳署長欣修：對！"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK。這樣對整體政府的預計或社會的期待來說還是有一些落差。請問部長，有沒有想說如何提升我們社會住宅的完工比率？怎麼樣加速？有沒有具體的作法？"],["劉部長世芳：我想委員非常了解，蓋社會住宅確實要如期如質，我們也很急，但是蓋的部分就是按照品質完成。而我們剛剛在報告時有特別提到百萬戶租屋家庭計畫，社會住宅現在的入住率很高，在完工率沒有那麼高的狀況之下，像包租代管或者是租金補貼，等於是其他的備變措施能夠在這樣子的緩衝期裡面提供給很多，尤其是提供年輕學子住屋上面的補助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，但是我們還是希望看到完工的速度能夠掌握。"],["劉部長世芳：當然！"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，一個是完工，另外一個就是全國社宅的目標數。它的需求至今好像一直沒有科學化的調查，政府是不是有計畫全面建置社宅需求的調查平臺，確保這個數據比較準確而且透明呢？有沒有預計？"],["吳署長欣修：說明一下，應該這麼說，因為現在全國的社宅在六都各自有，其實現在的作法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的意思是說，六都各自有在掌握？"],["吳署長欣修：對！"],["徐委員欣瑩：那其他縣市呢？"],["吳署長欣修：其他縣市部分基本上都是中央興建的，當然就我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在是說需求，需求度你們有掌握嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：需求度現在是沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有考慮要掌握呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，各地方需求的審查標準其實都不一致，因為各地現在都會根據自己的社經狀態……"],["徐委員欣瑩：中央主管機關有沒有要各地掌握嘛？不然你都不知道市場的需求、民眾真的需求，那你怎麼去訂定要做的目標？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，因為各地也會看租金水準，第二個，也會跟現在的租金、所得跟身分分級制……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！這些都是一些考量嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：所以各縣市會不一樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你們身為執政的中央政府，難道你們都不需要掌握？考慮進去嘛，每個地方租金不同、每個地方需求不同，但就是要知道大概各地的需求是多少，依據它的需求也比較能量身訂做吧。"],["吳署長欣修：也跟委員報告，基本上我們現在用全國總量在看的時候，我們現在是用一個標準的2.5%……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你用全國總量看，但可以是六都掌握，然後各縣市匯報起來讓你們整體掌握。"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以跟委員報告，我們現在第一步是先用全國的總量比例先抓一個總數字；然後到各縣市去投入的時候，現在是依各地在一定的人口數以上，我們先開始進行社宅的投資；第三個才會跟大家報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以本席請教，你們有沒有在進行這種需求的調查平臺？"],["吳署長欣修：第三個就是，現在都有陸陸續續在進行，但是跟委員報告，因為我們還要統一訂定它的資格審查標準，依據各縣市不同，我們會去訂，訂出來才會讓民眾去登記。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！所以朝這個方向加速進行嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望政府一定要掌握需求，你才知道要怎麼進行嘛，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來想請教，包租代管計畫中的仲介業者好像經常被指說重視數量、忽略品質，甚至有發生排除高齡或者是單身男性的現象。我們政府有沒有計畫修訂相關的管理規範，提升業者服務的標準，並且完善申訴管道，最重要的是，我們也要保障一些弱勢者不被排除？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，關於包租代管的部分，關鍵應該這麼說，對仲介業者來講，他是負責媒合跟中間的管理，基本上大概也源自現在的租屋環境，有一些房東對於長者可能擔心他身體有狀況，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：長者還有單身男性為什麼特別被排除？"],["吳署長欣修：單身男性有一些可能是地緣的關係，他才會有這樣的問題，有一些地緣的關係，他擔心男性的話，譬如說房東是女性，他可能會擔心有一些……"],["徐委員欣瑩：主要是這樣。"],["吳署長欣修：經過我們大概了解，其實仲介並不會排除做這些服務，但有些是因為房東。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們有沒有規範相關的管理規範？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，有關租賃方面的一些條文，其實地政司都很努力朝向把租約規範能夠做得再平等、對租客更……"],["徐委員欣瑩：再努力、再加強，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：對，是不是讓地政司……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有完善的申訴管道，這些大概都需要。"],["林代理司長家正：這個部分我們現在也跟公會在聯絡，保持、提高業界的服務品質，所以民眾如果有這些問題都可以跟公會或是縣市政府、內政部反映。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。最後，我們社會住宅的中籤率偏低，部長您知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有想過怎麼樣改進？"],["吳署長欣修：其實就是數量不足啦！數量現在還不太夠啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在要加緊就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們還要再……"],["徐委員欣瑩：該興建的趕快興建，有一些可以包租代管的，你們這邊做好的統整，還有一些鼓勵措施嘛！剛剛有講了。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：各縣市需求納入比較精準的規劃或者是保障，有沒有一些配套措施保障弱勢群體的需求，優先被考量？"],["吳署長欣修：因為現行的規定就已經有了，現行的規定就已經有數量的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們剛剛一路一直說要掌握需求，有沒有在建這方面的database？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，現在的弱勢戶比例，還有中籤率，其實是高於一般戶，尤其我們現在有初步統計，弱勢戶在六都現在的狀況，它的平均中籤率是一般戶的2.5倍到3.5倍。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有沒有在建置這個database？"],["吳署長欣修：其實在弱勢戶的部分，本來資料都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不只是弱勢，就是整個，我剛剛第一題在問的就是……"],["吳署長欣修：對，長期的話，才要慢慢去……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一塊你們已經開始建置了嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：對，已經開始在收集資料。"],["徐委員欣瑩：收集資料？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有時程？什麼時候這種資料庫會建立起來？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們必須透過行政上的作為逐步去強化，也就是我剛剛……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以沒有設定什麼時候要做出來？這樣的話，我告訴你，明年、後年就這個議題再質詢的時候，你都還沒建。"],["吳署長欣修：報告，本來就有一些資料庫，現在如果照委員講的要全面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：要整合一下。"],["吳署長欣修：到全國都要的話，那當然要一些時間，因為非六都……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你站在中央的立場，當然要了解全國的情況嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以我跟委員報告，現在六都的部分，大家都已經逐步掌握了，但是在非六都的部分，會搭配我們社宅逐步完工，其實它就會在當地去收集這樣一個資訊，這些資訊就會建置成一個平臺的概念，再去統一做資料的流通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們希望儘早看到完善的整個資料庫系統，還有我們能夠掌握全國的需求，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","林倩綺","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","麥玉珍","羅智強","徐欣瑩","翁曉玲","黃健豪","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","吳沛憶","范雲","王鴻薇","張啓楷","丁學忠","邱鎮軍","黃建賓"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃健豪等16人\n擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；五、\n審查委員賴士葆等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員牛\n煦庭等16人擬具「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員翁曉玲等16\n人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案；十、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員蘇巧慧\n等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「住宅法增訂\n第二十一條之一條文草案」案；十三、審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員李坤城等24人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員徐欣\n瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四\n條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員高金素梅等27人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案；十\n八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法第二條條文修正草案」案；十九、審查委員\n吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員林倩綺\n等23人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144101_00003"}}},{"id":"160614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e595a955855a0397ffc89945c4c3ca21e1c2be5dfb0591b1bfbd9c4a74a059f27d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:26:05 - 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我們有請主委好 有請主委"},{"start":22.062,"end":42.295,"text":"主委好 上個禮拜五啊 其實院會通過了一個公投案就是要求說您是否同意在這個河山呢經過整體安全評估之後呢 恢復繼續運轉那最後呢 在這個藍白的聯手之下呢其實已經進負二讀囉 要交付協商那在整個關係文案你們可以看到 他其實有去講這個"},{"start":43.536,"end":60.873,"text":"在整體安全評估後聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全我想請教主委就您的專業我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程報告委員我們現在核電廠發指導是40年"},{"start":67.661,"end":92.924,"text":"40年前當初核發執照的時候是根據使用40年的標準來核發的但是我們現在如果要繼續的話現在過去這個40年之後呢當初是沒有評估所以如果要延長使用期限的話是需要評估的那我現在的問題是說我們這個安全的一個評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程是的我們有非常嚴謹的一個流程"},{"start":94.845,"end":107.21,"text":"但我記得我上次問您說這個時間要花多久好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準對不對沒有辦法說得準是要花時間的要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛對不對現在都在一個不確定的狀況我自己也會覺得這個問題這個公投的題目"},{"start":111.86,"end":134.877,"text":"這種條件式問法很像說如果我今天中樂透我就要去環遊世界問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透嘛也不可能也不保證我一定會中嘛所以這樣子的我們這樣子的條件式的公投很像在許一個願望但是真的會實現嗎因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說的算嘛它就是有個禁令的流程跟國際的標準它必須要經過非常非常多的時間"},{"start":136.038,"end":145.953,"text":"才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛對不對有可能的嘛對不對"},{"start":147.679,"end":174.831,"text":"公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利不是做白日夢的舞台所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗還有核廢料最終主持長的一個實質問題那我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想那同時我也比較了一下各國針對於核電公投的一些題目"},{"start":176.383,"end":188.359,"text":"那像這個是左邊是瑞士啦或是義大利啊其實他們都是在講說針對於這個能源的一個法案大家的一個想法到底是什麼其實沒有去涉及到核電廠是否研議這麼專業的一個問題喔所以"},{"start":192.424,"end":216.119,"text":"在我們現在其實河山公投現在已經交付協商可是大家不要忘記我們3月份其實也針對當時這個河管法的說法已經送出委員會了那接下來藍白要做的到底是這個研議的討論呢要以公投為主還是以立法院的程序為主這麼混亂的討論方式沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論"},{"start":221.582,"end":248.427,"text":"那如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力那誰要來負責人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全我覺得這是非常危險的也是非常不負責任的甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕我們科學檢驗讓科學檢驗承受一個壓力這都是有可能的所以我認為這是一個非常不負責任的態度"},{"start":250.171,"end":263.269,"text":"那接下來我也想要請教就是有關於這個火災的通報時間我其實後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情你們場內有接貨通知然後後來好像是屏東的消防局也有跟河山長確認情況"},{"start":265.891,"end":291.2,"text":"那時間點其實總共大概發生是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了這個火勢但是呢這整個的問題在於是說火勢都撲滅了當時因為我們所有的行政主管都在開會所以我們到12點半才通報了我們各機關可是現場已經濃煙嘛所以居民都不知道發生了什麼事情就是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件"},{"start":292.446,"end":319.832,"text":"所以我想問雖然合規但是通報時間是否太晚因為這造成你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情外部完全不了解那我看一下現在動力用的核子反應器設施應立即通報的形式及通報時限我們現在其實是有兩種就是說一小時內跟兩小時內但是這是2004年訂的已經過了20年了我們有沒有修正的必要呢我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢"},{"start":321.034,"end":324.027,"text":"主委您的想法這點請高組長回答好不好剛才說明了"},{"start":325.854,"end":353.285,"text":"那委員提供這個表格是針對安全部分有影響的部分那當天是我們在11點35分有跟河山廠做聯繫那剛才所提出來那個書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來那在整個過程中會裡面的駐場視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認對我現在的問題是說在2004年訂的這樣子的規定世界上還是都沒有做任何的修正嗎這個通報的方式"},{"start":355.81,"end":378.67,"text":"呃 基本上都是按照這個參考國外定所以我們有實施再修正嗎因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年到現在是沒有修正的這過了20年都還發生了福島事件我們有做任何的修正嗎福島事件是另外一個層次是京島核子事故這個是沒有構成我的意思是說在這個事件之後我們全世界有沒有針對這個通報實現有相關的修正有嗎"},{"start":383.719,"end":405.658,"text":"目前根據我所了解是沒有我們可以再確認請你們再確認好不好那再來就是說大家也有在講到就是說我們現在的這些公告內容其實並沒有像並沒有非常非常的清楚那我自己找了一下日本的一個版本它其實是把事件發生的時間時時的更新各設施的狀況可是相對於我們的"},{"start":406.719,"end":420.626,"text":"內容其實就非常的簡單那我們是不是有可能參考日本的這個標準呢跟這個格式呢再去把我們的公告裡面寫得更清楚因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的一個擔心的這部分是有可能的嗎"},{"start":423.183,"end":441.075,"text":"跟委員說明,事實上我們都有看日本發布訊息事實上我們大部分都有比對過事實上要提供的資訊都一樣,就是時間、地點可是他這邊有講到,像他左下角這邊是有講到各施施的狀況所以我們會針對說兩部機組的狀況去...就是針對機組的狀況沒有影響,我們就直接這樣講"},{"start":450.387,"end":471.602,"text":"好那沒關係那我想就是在事件發生時間以及他現在更新的時間點上面我們是不是可以在旁邊做個加注呢這部分我尊重你們的專業啦只是我覺得他這樣子的呈現方式可能是大家比較一目了然的方式啦比較清楚好那再來下一個問題就是說因為我們其實都有做很多的兵推情境喔那我們現在是有火災的版本嗎我們現在有嗎"},{"start":478.01,"end":501.623,"text":"我們現在有是不是有那是這次剛好沒有因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災跟委員報告有我們每年火災基本上都是閉演的項目閉演習的項目是嗎所以這個是另外就是針對一些特殊的情境是嗎可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了每一個是的OK好那謝謝那再來最後一個問題喔"},{"start":503.482,"end":516.518,"text":"是說去年的時候我有質詢是說因為其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常非常重要嘛那我也非常感謝就是和安會呢其實就找了許多的兒少團體一起來做討論看如何把這個文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂"},{"start":520.783,"end":544.398,"text":"那其實我從這些團體的回饋也都覺得他們對於核安會的現在的做法也都保持一個肯定那我現在就想要了解在接下來的進度就是輻射安全校安包目前我知道你們已經要選定了幾個國中北中南的幾個國中小的老師一起來研討這個校安包要怎麼做那我想問一下我們有沒有一個預定的時程呢"},{"start":547.359,"end":569.119,"text":"跟委員報告這個因為其實針對這個國中小的這個教案其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的這個學校在做溝通那我們後續原則上還是會參考上次跟這個這個一些學者專家提供的這些意見那我們目前因為"},{"start":570.02,"end":593.612,"text":"各地方政府也有在推啦所以事實上我們針對這一塊原則上是在協助地方政府用他們的比較接地氣的方式因為事實上每個區域他針對的這一些他有他的特殊的風情或者學校是不一樣所以我們是目前的做法是配合他們來調整來修正來協助他們做這一塊"},{"start":594.375,"end":609.767,"text":"所以我們目前因為我聽到的說法是說你們現在是跟基隆屏東還有新北的地方政府一起合作嘛等到我輻射交案包的時候會再請專家學者來給意見嗎但是你現在我現在就是在問什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段可以請專家學者來給意見啊"},{"start":611.225,"end":633.217,"text":"目前我們倒是沒有把這個因為我們還要跟地方政府討論出來什麼樣所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定啟程可是沒有訂定一個啟程的話大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們工作室下我們會在因為每年都會針對這個項目會做一個檢討其實我們會來把這個我們會依照委員的建議我們把它拉到"},{"start":633.317,"end":652.135,"text":"對 但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛那這樣子好不好你可以跟地方政府討論一下預估的一個時間這樣子我們才可以知道說我們是不是在今年可以完成這件事情那這個詳細的時如果你們討論完這個時間大概什麼時候可以給我呢大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論好 我們看看我們是不是"},{"start":654.588,"end":666.297,"text":"多久的時間可以討論我們盡快我們只是初步討論而已啊討論一個時間點對啊那我總是要追你的進度嘛那你總是要勾個時間吧是好好好謝謝啊謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時26分）謝謝主席，我們有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：上禮拜五院會通過一個公投案，就是：您是否同意在核三經過整體安全評估之後恢復繼續運轉？最後在藍白聯手之下，其實已經逕付二讀了，要交付協商，在整個關係文書中你們可以看到，它其實有講到在整體安全評估後，所以聽起來似乎是非常在乎安全。那我想請教主委，就您的專業，我們目前如果要評估一個核電廠是不是能夠繼續安全，要進行的安全檢查有沒有一個國際標準跟流程？"],["陳主任委員明真：報告委員，我們現在核電廠發的執照是40年，40年前當初核發執照的時候，是根據使用40年的標準來核發的。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們現在如果要繼續的話……"],["陳主任委員明真：現在過了40年之後，當初是沒有評估。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["陳主任委員明真：所以，如果要延長使用期限的話，是需要評估的。"],["張委員雅琳：我現在的問題就是，我們的安全評估是不是有一些國際標準跟流程？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的，我們有非常嚴謹的流程。"],["張委員雅琳：我記得我上次問您這個時間要花多久，好像是現在我們沒有辦法說得準，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有辦法說得準，要花時間的。"],["張委員雅琳：要花多少時間其實現在也都不確定嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["張委員雅琳：現在都在一個不確定的狀況。我自己會覺得這個公投的題目、這種條件式問法很像是，如果我今天中樂透，我就要去環遊世界，問題是說我現在也沒有中樂透，也不保證我一定會中。所以這樣子條件式的公投很像在許一個願望，但是真的會實現嗎？因為核能安全並不是我們哪個委員說得算嘛，它就是有個既定的流程跟國際的標準。"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["張委員雅琳：它必須要經過非常非常多的時間，才有可能去確保這座核電廠是否安全──是否！"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：因為有可能檢驗出來之後不符合嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["張委員雅琳：有可能的嘛，對不對？公投其實是人民授權政府去做事的一個權利，不是做白日夢的舞臺，所以藍白用公投的障眼法迴避掉我們應該實質面對的檢驗，還有核廢料最終處置場的實質問題，我覺得我們應該要去做的是這些事情的討論，而不應該是投給一個假設成立的幻想。同時我也比較了一下各國針對核電公投的題目，像是瑞士或義大利，其實他們都是在講針對於能源的法案，大家的想法到底是什麼？並沒有涉及到核電廠是否延役這麼專業的問題。","現在核三公投已經交付協商，可是大家不要忘記3月份針對核管法進行修法已經送出委員會了，接下來藍白要做的到底是延役的討論要以公投為主，還是以立法院的程序為主？這麼混亂的討論方式，沒有對我們的核能安全有充足的討論，如果安全評估最後沒有通過的時候，我們耗費這麼多的人力跟物力，誰要來負責？人民的納稅錢我認為不應該是這樣子花的，所以現在單純要靠公投來決定一個核電廠是否安全，我覺得這是非常危險的，也是非常不負責任的，甚至這個公投會不會有可能凌駕科學檢驗，讓科學檢驗承受壓力？這都是有可能的！所以我認為這是非常不負責任的態度。","接下來我也想要請教有關於火災的通報時間。我後來有去調了你們每一個時間點上面發生的事情，你們廠內有接獲通知，後來好像屏東消防局也有跟核三廠確認情況，時間點總共大概是31分鐘的時間就撲滅了火勢，但是這整個問題在於，火勢都撲滅了，而當時因為所有行政主管都在開會，所以到了12點半才通報各機關，可是現場已經都是濃煙，居民都不知道發生了什麼事情，於是就發生了12點7分恆春鎮代表衝撞大門的事件。所以我想要問，雖然合規，但是通報時間是否太晚？因為你們內部可能知道發生什麼事情，但外部完全不了解。我看一下動力用核子反應器設施應立即通報之情事及通報時限，現在其實是有兩種，就是1小時內跟2小時內，但是這是2004年訂的，已經過了20年，有沒有修正的必要呢？我們能不能參考世界再去做一些修正呢？主委，您的想法？"],["陳主任委員明真：這點請高組長回答，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，委員提供這個表格是針對安全有影響的部分。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["高組長斌：當天我們在11點35分有跟核三廠聯繫，剛才所提出來的書面報告是後續要補一些文件出來，在整個過程中，會裡面的駐廠視察員有到現場跟控制室去確認。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我現在的問題是在2004年訂了規定，世界上其他國家都沒有做對通報的方式任何的修正嗎？"],["高組長斌：基本上都是參考國外訂出來的。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們有時時在修正嗎？因為我看到最後一個版本是2004年，到現在是沒有修正，過了20年，都還發生過福島事件，我們有做任何的修正嗎？"],["高組長斌：福島事件是另外一個層次的核子事故，這個是沒有構成……"],["張委員雅琳：我的意思是說，在這個事件之後全世界其他國家有沒有針對這個通報時限有相關的修正，有嗎？"],["高組長斌：目前根據我所了解是沒有，我們可以再確認。"],["張委員雅琳：請你們再確認，好不好？再來，大家也有講到現在的公告內容其實並沒有非常、非常地清楚，我自己找了日本的版本，它除了公告事件發生的時間，也時時更新各設施的狀況，可是相對地我們的內容就非常簡單，我們是不是有可能參考日本的標準跟格式，把我們公告的內容寫得更清楚？因為我覺得這是可以降低民眾的擔心，這部分是有可能的嗎？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，我們都有看日本發布的訊息，大部分都有比對過，事實上要提供的資訊都一樣，就是時間、地點、狀況……"],["張委員雅琳：可是它的公告有講到各設施的狀況。"],["高組長斌：所以我們會針對兩部機組的狀況去……"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["高組長斌：我們就直接寫針對機組狀況沒有影響。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，我想在事件發生的時間以及現在更新的時間點上，我們是不是可以在旁邊加註呢？這部分我尊重你們的專業，只是我覺得像日本的呈現方式，可能大家比較一目瞭然、比較清楚。","下一個問題，我們其實都會有做很多兵推情境，現在是有火災的版本嗎？我們現在有嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：有！"],["張委員雅琳：這次剛好沒有，因為我看這幾年的演習幾乎都沒有火災。"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，有，我們每年火災基本上都是必演的項目。"],["張委員雅琳：必演習的項目，是嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：是！"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個是另外針對一些特殊的情境，是嗎？可是每一年我們都會做幾次火災的演習就對了。"],["黃組長俊源：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，謝謝。最後一個問題，去年的時候我有質詢，其實輻射安全對於小孩子來說也非常、非常重要，我也非常感謝核安會找了許多兒少團體一起來討論，看如何把文宣做得讓小孩更看得懂，我從這些團體的回饋，覺得他們對於核安會現在的作法也都保持肯定。我現在想要了解接下來的進度，就是輻射安全教案包，目前我知道你們已經選定了北、中、南幾個國中小的老師一起來研討教案包要怎麼做。我想問有沒有一個預定的時程呢？"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，針對這個國中小的教案，其實我們一直都有在跟地方政府的學校做溝通，後續原則上還是會參考上次一些學者專家所提供的意見，目前因為各地方政府也有在推，事實上針對這一塊，我們原則上是協助地方政府用他們比較接地氣的方式，因為每個區域有它特殊的風情或學校有不一樣的方式，所以我們目前的作法是配合它們來調整、來修正，協助他們做這一塊。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我聽到的說法是，你們現在跟基隆、屏東、還有新北市地方政府一起合作，等討論到輻射教案包的時候，會再請專家學者來給意見嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：是。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我現在就在問，什麼時候你們會做到一個初步的階段，可以請專家學者來給意見？"],["黃組長俊源：目前我們倒是沒有把這一個……因為我們還要再跟地方政府討論，所以這部分我們目前沒有訂定期程。"],["張委員雅琳：可是沒有訂定一個期程的話，大家就不覺得這件事情一定要排在他們要工作的事項。"],["黃組長俊源：會，因為每年都會針對這個項目做一個檢討，我們會依照委員的建議會把它納入。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但我們現在就是想要知道時間嘛！這樣子好不好，你可以跟地方政府討論預估的時間，我們才可以知道今年是不是可以完成這件事情，如果你們討論完這個時間，大概什麼時候可以給我呢？大概要多久時間跟地方政府討論？"],["黃組長俊源：好，我們儘快。"],["張委員雅琳：只是初步討論而已，討論一個時間點，我總是要追你們的進度，那你要給我一個時間吧！"],["黃組長俊源：好！"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，主委請回。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：有請宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e558a2eecab83e12dc9742596ee20a55b8c2be5dfb0591b1bf1c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:19:56 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謝謝委員特別支持臺灣農業我想如果是我能夠提供任何資料給我們臺灣代表那邊這點我一定會講因為對農業來講我們美國是對我們是順差的 是啊其實臺美的貿易其實本來就是互補的我們買進來的黃小玉其實為了臺灣的續產業所以其實疾病上的逆差我想美國應該了解這一點這是第一"},{"start":184.071,"end":199.261,"text":"那第二個進來的黃小玉其實支持我們的畜牧產業所以其實我覺得這是互補的所以我想如果能夠提供給我們台灣他們代表在農產品的在諮商上面這點一定會放在裡面好我希望我們顏副總代表在這邊你也聽到了我覺得我們在對美談判的時候順差跟逆差談法是不一樣的"},{"start":205.345,"end":229.604,"text":"基本上他已經是大量賺我們美金的這個項目我們是更有底氣的我們應該是可以守得很穩的所以在農產品在美豬美牛這一塊我們是有底氣的應該就是要堅守我們的原則我希望我們副總代表在這邊這一點是我們自己有進有退我們的原則應該是要非常清楚的那這個副總代表你可以先回座我接下來請教一下我們次長在我們的現在進口的豬肉裡面"},{"start":234.808,"end":241.196,"text":"這個加拿大豬是第一名嘛 請問他有沒有萊克多巴胺加拿大的飼養方式他們有沒有添加萊克多巴胺"},{"start":242.831,"end":266.574,"text":"應該這樣說其實就衛福部在邊境的檢測部分目前沒有任何一個含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉進到國內不是我是問你說加拿大他們在養他們的加拿大豬的時候養殖的過程會不會添加萊克多巴胺就我所得到資料是沒有好那第二名的這個西班牙豬他們養殖過程會不會添加萊克多巴胺歐盟國家不用"},{"start":267.615,"end":273.359,"text":"對 好 這個是第一名跟第二名那第三名呢 第三名我們進口的豬肉是哪一個國家不知道 是巴拉圭巴拉圭他們會不會添加巴拉圭也不准用好 那美國他飼養過程就是會添加萊克多巴對不對"},{"start":288.766,"end":317.654,"text":"它應該有的有的沒有啊它準用但是不見得都會添加對有的有用有的沒有用嘛所以這個就是為什麼我們今天從其他國家進來的這個豬肉我們要去標示這個產地國因為很多國家是不用萊克多巴胺包括台灣我們的飼養是不准添加萊克多巴胺的吧對不對對萊克多巴胺在台灣不只不准添加不准使用不准製造不准運輸也不准承受跟分裝"},{"start":319.135,"end":339.087,"text":"對 這個就是我們看到的 你如果從消費者的角度這麼多的國家是不使用的 美國是使用的所以我們今天要求每一個國家標示他的原產地請問這個有違反什麼精神這個是從消費者的角度讓他可以去分辨跟選擇如果美國連這個標示都要我們拿掉 我個人覺得是非常的不合理啊"},{"start":340.207,"end":368.323,"text":"從剛才石耀署也回答這件事情就是我們對於這個產地的標示並沒有針對美國我們對所有來源都要做標示所以這不會構成任何貿易障礙嘛這也不是問題嘛我要講的就是說今天不是美方說了算嘛他列在他自己認為的這個貿易障礙他自己認為是貿易障礙但是我們必須從我們自己的消費者我們國家的立場去看待嘛我們是對每一個國家都標示啊我不是只有標美國啊加拿大我也標啊"},{"start":370.544,"end":383.389,"text":"另外一個我要問你的就是現在之前有發生過這個洗產地的問題我們現在進口美國的豬肉你如果從這個豬肉儀表板你可以看到到去年有7778公噸豬肉加內臟"},{"start":387.931,"end":390.154,"text":"這個在2023年更是高峰 來到16314公噸那這一些進口的美豬 還有它的內臟我要問這個農業部的就是 請問他們去了哪裡因為市面上 包括消費機會 他們去把所有的產品拿來看它的標示"},{"start":406.914,"end":431.889,"text":"事實上都很難發現美豬的蹤跡那這些量你不能說他很少喔一萬六千多公噸跟七千多公噸這個量是很大的這樣這個量到了市面上之後完全看不到標示這個農業部有掌握嗎這應該是你們掌握的吧他的流向呃食藥食藥署是不是好那你先請回來食藥食藥署跟部長請上來這個我幫消費者問齁"},{"start":436.912,"end":456.845,"text":"因為按照我們的食安法是要標示成分的但是很多的加工品裡面我們現在都看不到美國豬有看到加拿大但是美國豬就是沒有看見請問都去了哪裡你們不是有做源頭的管理嗎追蹤嗎每一個肉餅商進口進來之後你們會追蹤他的流向我現在就幫消費者問請問這些美豬跟內臟都去了哪裡好是不是這個問題請江署長好 署長來"},{"start":466.001,"end":487.528,"text":"謝謝委員的提問有關於豬肉的原產地的標示這件事情那其實是國際的標準所有的都會標示進來的一定都會標示你就直接回答我就是美豬到底現在去了哪裡它的流向去了哪些去處為什麼市面上這些包裝的食品它的原料裡面其實都沒有看到美豬"},{"start":489.361,"end":510.721,"text":"這邊稍微做簡單的說明因為進來之後流布出去的流量其實是市場自由的機制那我們面對這個議題裡面我們就是後市場端我們去查查從110年到114年我們總共查了297,756件其中標示不合格的我們可以看到是111件"},{"start":512.563,"end":532.438,"text":"那其中19件是美豬的產品所以表示我們在查查過程中也不是都是不合格都是美豬其他地方也有可能沒有好好標示只要沒有好標示我們在抽查市場機制我們會堅持做下去總共採取了有300多萬的一個裁罰的金額所以總編跟委員"},{"start":532.998,"end":548.05,"text":"署長我問你2023年有發生席產地的就是美豬標加拿大豬當時這個媒體都有報導那請問這樣的一個席產地的現象到去年2024年還有沒有持續在發生"},{"start":548.615,"end":570.742,"text":"我們目前查查的狀況就沒有看到進一步有有有證據說是有稀產地的跟委員做進一步的去年零件我們今年去年去做的相關的一個查查我們不管是在衛生局的協作或我們其他的同仁後市場的調查裡面都沒有看到這邊跟委員做進一步"},{"start":570.742,"end":596.345,"text":"就沒有息產地的情況還是你們沒查到而已那你們有沒有去比對你們去年有7778公噸喔這7778公噸請問它的流向到哪裡去然後這樣這個流向跟你們的查核你有沒有去做一些勾擊跟比對確定說它沒有去報告一下剛才提到市場機制是出去嘛對不對然後標示我們在"},{"start":597.486,"end":619.324,"text":"行政機關裡面對於這個標示的部分目前我們持續監測的所以監測出來是沒有的因為沒有這樣的結果我們就會很做適當的一個宣布也做長期在我們的儀表板上面做一個揭露那針對這個議題我們持續的不會因為今天講完沒有明天我們就停下來我們還是持續做我們堅持"},{"start":620.345,"end":632.028,"text":"那你應該要跟大家報告7778公噸它的主要的流向是去哪裡都沒有進到食品加工業嗎如果進到食品加工業它就應該要標示嗎但是在後端的所有的產品裡面沒有看見這樣的一個產品那它是化整為零了嗎它是不是都到這種市場上去了變成是絞肉"},{"start":641.73,"end":658.711,"text":"然後絞肉只要他沒有標示或者是在市場上面根本沒有標示所以其實都吃下去大家也不知道還有內臟的部分進這麼多的從豬腳大腸頭肝臉整個他是不是都進到一些的小吃店去但是小如果是小吃店不是也應該要標示嗎"},{"start":660.035,"end":674.332,"text":"這個部分的確是有 按照我們的飲食餐廳的標準底下我們有特別的標示也有去查查這個部分而且目前揭露的我們看到非常非常多台灣豬剛才提到台灣食用是佔90%是國內的"},{"start":676.394,"end":691.079,"text":"因此他的標示裡面看到的不管哪一個產地的標示都其實我們消費者一眼其實在清理的時候可以看得出來所以我在問你的就是那明明有7000多公噸到去年還有7000多公噸的豬肉跟內臟進來了"},{"start":692.219,"end":706.064,"text":"但是市面上你沒有看到有任何一個小吃攤有標出來難不成他就消失了嗎他到底去了哪裡呀我要你食藥署要掌握就是你應該要掌握他的流向你才知道說他到底有沒有真實的標示嗎"},{"start":706.772,"end":728.894,"text":"我跟委員做進一步報告因為流向進來之後就會流布出去是啊流布出去的時候我們其實有在邊境的時候就做什麼的BPIBorder Protection Intelligence用人工智慧去知道所以我們都知道是在哪裡對知道在哪裡如果發生是有違規的我們針對這個人工智慧裡面會增加抽查抽驗的比例"},{"start":729.673,"end":744.805,"text":"你的所謂違規是什麼就是沒有好好標示這是一項中間的一項可是任何的你指的是你原來的那個美國豬肉進口一進口的時候標它是美國豬吧我現在在問你的是它流到下游之後的這個流向"},{"start":745.205,"end":772.63,"text":"照道來講它源頭如果是美國豬我們現在的標示是你即使到下游你是小吃店 你是店家你有使用到你就應該要把那個成分說我有使用你可能有使用台灣豬加美國豬你就應該要清楚的揭露但現在市面上完全看不到的情況底下那是不是就是有人有使用但是沒有在標示嘛這一點你們應該要去掌握嘛7000多公噸是很大的一個數量"},{"start":773.43,"end":796.716,"text":"但是市面上看不到也不合理報告委員因為我們查查的過程是一體適用到所有的標示向下之後去查如果沒有特別的違規的狀況之下我們也是一體的對待任何一個廠家他們在標示上面的所以的確我們現在看到的是並沒有特別有違規的一個狀況特別跟委員做進一步的報告"},{"start":797.456,"end":818.443,"text":"對 我覺得署長你們現在的查核還是有輸入 你們沒有反向去查就是說有些店家你抽查 他進口的肉商是從哪邊來這個肉商在網上 如果他對到 他其實就是從美國進口來的那為什麼他在這一個店家 他就沒有標示出來這個就是漏洞嘛 就是說這個跟洗產廳是大概一樣的道理"},{"start":819.444,"end":843.465,"text":"2023年有查到這個是大量的它因為是冷凍食品然後它這樣子出去但是現在有更多我懷疑它是進到了一般的傳統市場跟小吃店它根本也沒有在標示要不然你想一個基本的道理就知道消基會說很奇怪啊7000多噸還是一個很大的量結果市面上沒有任何一個產品就是你看到美國豬三個字"},{"start":844.4,"end":856.742,"text":"那這個就是有問題嘛我希望這個食藥署在這個把關上面喔你們還是應該是要就是在運用一些方法 好不好謝謝委員 我們一定會積極加強的追蹤對 你們該集合 該查核的才是查核因為今天部長 來最後部長你今天對外說你還是會堅持四個原則喔其中有兩個原則一個是落實邊境跟市場稽查我現在在講的就是那你市場稽查這一項其實不能放"},{"start":873.385,"end":898.911,"text":"在我們現行的規定裡面我覺得就是要讓消費者非常清楚的知道我們進口了美國的豬肉跟內臟它到底到哪裡去消費者可以選擇吃或選擇不吃有的人不怕沒有關係有的人他就是要選擇真正的台灣豬他就是不要吃外國的我覺得就是要保留給消費者選擇權好不好我們一定透過部會跟中央地方的合作落實邊境茶葉跟市場的稽查"},{"start":899.571,"end":902.278,"text":"好,我希望市場稽查要徹底的落實,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時20分）謝謝主席，首先請經貿談判辦公室顏副總談判代表及農業部次長一起上臺。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：我首先請教副總談判代表，之前你們已經跟美方有過視訊的會議，請問美豬跟美牛有沒有在你們談判的議題之內？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，基於臺美談判的互信原則，基本上，談判的議題是沒有辦法在現階段跟大家揭露的，未來如果有適當的時機，會由鄭麗君副院長所領軍的談判小組來跟各位做說明。"],["王委員育敏：所以你不敢對外表態嘛！美豬跟美牛的議題會不會是未來談判的一個重要議題？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想我們……"],["王委員育敏：會或不會？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：現在各國都是依照美國現在……剛剛實際上很多委員都有提出來，美國有提出外國貿易障礙調查報告（NTE），我想這些都是我們現在可以操之在我的準備方向。"],["王委員育敏：所以只要列在美方非關稅貿易障礙報告裡面的議題，就是未來要談判的議題，對不對？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們只能說這都是一個指引的方向。"],["王委員育敏：都是一個指引的方向，所以就是會談就對了嘛！這個是我聽到你這邊的說法。我要請教一下次長，在我們對美的貿易裡面，事實上你們今天的報告也很清楚，我們的農產品對美國其實是逆差，逆差了28億，在這樣的情況底下，如果美方還進一步要逼迫我們在美豬跟美牛上面，無論是標示也好，或者是萊克多巴胺的標準也好，或者是再去放寬其他沒有放寬的事項也好，你認為這是公平合理的嗎？今天我們對它不是順差，我們是逆差耶！川普對外講說其他國家賺了他們很多錢，很抱歉，在農產品這一塊是美國賺了我們28億美元，所以他還有立場在農產品這一塊逼迫我們去退讓嗎？是不是我們這一塊的底氣相對是足的？因為這個沒有川普總統所說的我們賺他們錢，而是他們賺我們28億美元喔！"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員特別支持臺灣農業，如果我能夠提供任何資料給我們的談判代表，這一點我一定會講，因為以農業來講，美國對我們是順差28億美元。"],["王委員育敏：是啊！"],["杜次長文珍：其實臺美貿易本來就是互補的，我們買進來的黃、小、玉是為了臺灣的畜產業，所以即便有這樣的逆差，我想美國應該要了解這一點，這是第一個。第二個，進來的黃、小、玉其實是支持我們的畜牧產業，所以我覺得這是互補的，我想如果能夠提供給我們談判代表在農產品上面的諮商，這一點一定會放在裡面。"],["王委員育敏：好，顏副總談判代表在這邊，你也聽到了，我覺得我們在對美談判的時候，順差跟逆差的談法是不一樣的，基本上，它在這一個項目已經是大量賺我們的美金，我們是更有底氣的，我們應該是可以守得很穩的，所以在農產品的美豬、美牛這一塊我們是有底氣的，應該要堅守我們的原則，副總談判代表在這邊，這一點是我們自己有進有退，我們的原則應該是要非常清楚的，副總談判代表可以先回座。","我接下來請教一下次長，在現在進口的豬肉裡面，加拿大豬是第一名，請問它有沒有萊克多巴胺？加拿大的飼養方式，他們有沒有添加萊克多巴胺？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，就衛福部在邊境的檢測部分，目前沒有任何一個含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉進到國內。"],["王委員育敏：不是，我是問你加拿大在養他們加拿大豬的時候，養殖的過程會不會添加萊克多巴胺？"],["杜次長文珍：就我所得到資料是沒有。"],["王委員育敏：好。第二名是西班牙豬，他們養殖過程會不會添加萊克多巴胺？"],["杜次長文珍：歐盟國家不用。"],["王委員育敏：對，這個是第一名跟第二名，那第三名呢？我們進口第三名的豬肉是哪一個國家？不知道？是不是巴拉圭？"],["杜次長文珍：巴拉圭。"],["王委員育敏：他們會不會添加？"],["杜次長文珍：巴拉圭也不准用。"],["王委員育敏：好。美國飼養的過程就是會添加萊克多巴胺，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：它應該是准用，但不見得……"],["王委員育敏：有的有、有的沒有。"],["杜次長文珍：它准用，但是不見得都會添加。"],["王委員育敏：對，有的有用，有的沒有用，所以這個就是為什麼我們今天從其他國家進口的豬肉要標示產地國，因為很多國家是不用萊克多巴胺的，包括臺灣，我們的飼養是不准添加萊克多巴胺的，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：對，萊克多巴胺在臺灣不只不准添加、不准使用、不准製造、不准運輸，也不准承售跟分裝。"],["王委員育敏：對，這個就是我們看到的，你如果從消費者的角度來看，這麼多的國家是不使用的，美國是使用的，所以我們今天要求每一個國家標示它的原產地，請問這個有違反什麼精神？這都是從消費者的角度，讓他可以去分辨跟選擇，如果美國連這個標示都要我們拿掉，我個人覺得是非常的不合理！"],["杜次長文珍：剛才食藥署也有回答這件事情，就是我們對於產地的標示並沒有針對美國，我們對所有來源國都要求要做標示。"],["王委員育敏：是啊！所以這不會構成任何貿易障礙，這也不是問題，我要講的就是今天不是美方說了算，它列在它自己認為的貿易障礙，它自己認為是貿易障礙，但是我們必須從我們自己的消費者、我們國家的立場去看待，我們是要求每一個國家都標示，不是只有標美國，加拿大我們也標，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，另外一個我要問你的就是，之前有發生過洗產地的問題，我們現在進口美國的豬肉，從豬肉儀表板可以看到到去年有7,778公噸（豬肉加內臟），在2023年更是高峰，來到1萬6,314公噸，這一些進口的美豬還有它的內臟，我要問農業部的就是，請問他們去了哪裡？因為市面上包括消基會，他們去把所有的產品拿來，看它的標示，事實上都很難發現美豬的蹤跡，這些量你不能說它很少，一萬六千多公噸跟七千多公噸，這個量是很大的，這樣的一個量到了市面上之後，完全看不到標示，這個農業部有掌握嗎？它的流向應該是你們要掌握的吧！"],["杜次長文珍：是食藥署。"],["王委員育敏：食藥署是不是？好，那你先請回。來，食藥署跟部長請上來。我幫消費者問，因為按照我們的食安法是要標示成分的，但是很多的加工品裡面我們現在都看不到美國豬，有看到加拿大，但是美國豬就是沒有看見，請問都去了哪裡？你們不是有做源頭的管理、追蹤，每一個肉品商進口之後，你們會追蹤它的流向，我現在就幫消費者問，請問這些美豬跟內臟都去了哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：這個問題是不是請姜署長回答？"],["王委員育敏：好，署長來。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提問，有關豬肉原產地的標示這件事情，其實是國際的標準，所有進來的一定都會標示。"],["王委員育敏：對，現在你就直接回答我，就是美豬現在到底去了哪裡，它的流向去了哪些去處？為什麼市面上這一些包裝的食品，它的原料裡面都沒有看到美豬？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊稍微做簡單的說明，因為進來之後流不出去的流量，其實是市場自由的機制，面對這個議題，我們就是從後市場端去查察。從110年到114年我們總共查了29萬7,756件，其中標示不合格的，我們可以看到是111件，其中19件是美豬的產品，所以表示我們在查察過程中，不合格的也不是都是美豬，其他地方也有可能沒有好好標示，只要沒有好好標示，我們抽查市場的機制會堅持做下去。總共裁處了三百多萬的金額，所以從這邊跟委員……"],["王委員育敏：好，署長，我問你，2023年有發生洗產地的問題，就是美豬標加拿大豬，當時這個媒體都有報導，請問這樣的一個洗產地的現象，到去（2024）年還有沒有持續發生？"],["姜署長至剛：就我們目前查察的狀況，沒有看到進一步的證據顯示是有洗產地的，跟委員做進一步的報告。"],["王委員育敏：去年零件？都沒有？"],["姜署長至剛：對，我們今年、去年做的相關查察，不管是衛生局的協作或我們其他的同仁在後市場的調查裡面，都沒有看到，這邊跟委員做進一步的說明。"],["王委員育敏：是沒有洗產地的情況，還是你們沒查到而已？你們有沒有去比對？去年有7,778公噸喔！"],["姜署長至剛：對，跟委員報告一下……"],["王委員育敏：請問這7,778公噸的流向到哪裡去？這樣的一個流向跟你們的查核，你有沒有去做一些勾稽跟比對？確定它沒有……"],["姜署長至剛：我跟委員報告一下，剛才提到市場機制是出去，對不對？"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["姜署長至剛：目前我們行政機關對於這個標示的部分是持續監測的，監測出來是沒有的，因為沒有這樣的結果，我們就會做適當的宣布，也長期在我們的儀表板上面做揭露。針對這個議題，我們不會因為今天講沒有，明天我們就停下來，我們還是會持續做我們堅持的工作。"],["王委員育敏：那你應該要跟大家報告啊！7,778公噸主要的流向是去哪裡，都沒有進到食品加工業嗎？如果進到食品加工業，它就應該要標示，但是在後端的所有產品裡面都沒有看見這樣的產品，那它是化整為零了嗎？它是不是都到市場上去了？變成絞肉，然後絞肉只要它沒有標示，或者是在市場上沒有標示，其實都吃下去了大家也不知道。還有內臟的部分進這麼多，豬腳、大腸頭、肝連，它是不是都進到一些小吃店去了？但是即便是小吃店，不是也應該要標示嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這個部分的確是有……"],["王委員育敏：你們真的有好好去追蹤嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：按照飲食餐廳的標準，我們有特別的標示，也有去查察這個部分，而且目前揭露的資料，我們剛剛看到非常非常多的臺灣豬，剛才提到臺灣食用的豬肉國內的占了90%，因此從它的標示裡面看到的，不管哪一個產地的標示，我們消費者其實親臨的時候一眼就可以看得出來。"],["王委員育敏：對，所以我在問你的就是，明明有七千多公噸，到去年還有七千多公噸的豬肉跟內臟進來，但是市面上你沒有看到有任何一個小吃攤有標出來，難不成它就消失了嗎？它到底去了哪裡？我要求你們食藥署要掌握，就是你應該要掌握它的流向，你才知道它到底有沒有真實的標示。"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步的報告，進來之後就會流不出去。"],["王委員育敏：是啊。"],["姜署長至剛：流不出去之後，我們其實在邊境就有做所謂的BPI（Border Prediction Intelligent），用人工智慧去瞭解，所以我們都知道是在哪裡，如果有發生違規的，我們在人工智慧裡面會增加抽查、抽驗的比例。"],["王委員育敏：你所謂的違規是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：就是沒有好好標示，這是中間的一項，可是任何的……"],["王委員育敏：你指的是美國豬肉一進口的時候標示它是美國豬吧，我現在問你的是它到下游之後的流向，照道理來講它源頭若是美國豬，我們現在的標示是即使到下游，你是小吃店，你是店家，你有使用到就應該標示成分說我有使用，你可能有使用臺灣豬加美國豬，你就應該要清楚地揭露，但在現在市面上完全看不到的情況底下，是不是就是有人有使用，但是沒有標示？這一點你們應該要去掌握，七千多公噸是很大的一個數量，但是市面上看不到也不合理。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，因為我們查察的過程是一體適用所有的標示，向下之後去查，如果在沒有特別違規的狀況之下，在標示上面我們也是一體地對待任何一個廠家，所以我們現在看到的，的確是沒有特別違規的狀況，特別跟委員做進一步的報告。"],["王委員育敏：對，我覺得署長你們現在的查核還是有疏漏，你們沒有反向去查，有些店家你抽查它進口的肉商是從哪邊來，這個肉商再往上，如果對應到它其實就是從美國進口來的，為什麼在這個店家沒有標示出來？這個就是漏洞，這個跟洗產地大概是一樣的道理。2023年有查到，這個是大量的，它是冷凍食品，然後它這樣子出去，但是現在有更多，我懷疑它是進到了一般的傳統市場跟小吃店，它根本也沒有在標示，要不然你想一個基本的道理就知道，消基會說很奇怪，七千多公噸是一個很大的量，結果市面上沒有任何一個產品可以看到「美國豬」三個字，這個就是有問題嘛！我希望食藥署在這個把關上面還是應該要再運用一些方法，好不好？就是該稽核的時候。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，我們一定會積極加強追蹤。"],["王委員育敏：對，你們該稽核、該查核還是要做。最後，部長，你今天對外說你還是會堅持四個原則，其中有兩個原則，一個是落實邊境跟市場稽查，我現在要講的就是，你市場稽查這一項其實不能放，在我們現行的規定裡面，我覺得就是要讓消費者非常清楚地知道，我們進口了美國的豬肉跟內臟，它到底到了哪裡。消費者可以選擇吃或選擇不吃，有的人不怕沒有關係；有的人就是要選擇真正的臺灣豬，他就是不要吃外國的，我覺得就是要保留給消費者選擇權，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我們一定透過部會及中央、地方的合作，落實邊境查驗跟市場的稽查。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你這個市場稽查要徹底落實，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","接續請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。我們在林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e51440f0e849d25dabaab39e7ea9331c7ec2be5dfb0591b1bf7aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:16:25 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有請王副秘書長還有次長好 麻煩次長副秘"},{"start":18.291,"end":35.636,"text":"委員早安 是 王副秘書長還有次長我想剛剛前面一些委員 還包含應該是昨天都有一些委員有問到有關於虐童案的那個犯罪嫌疑人他棄保潛逃的問題 剛剛王宏威委員其實也說了很多本席今天其實本來也要講這個議題但是呢因為剛剛王宏威委員其實也已經請你們要對這個事情要好好的嚴加處理然後甚至要去"},{"start":47.139,"end":68.592,"text":"追究相關承辦法官的責任因為剛剛聽了副秘書長的說明似乎是法官在做相關裁定決定的時候中間可能出了一些有疏失至少您剛剛的說法是不嚴謹不嚴謹的話那代表可能他也要負擔一些行政責任那麼就這個部分的話那我認為說不管是"},{"start":72.174,"end":100.835,"text":"司法院或是法務部其實未來在整個橫向的聯繫上面一定要多加強因為已經太多的案例然後讓大家這個社會觀感很不好為什麼這麼重大的一些案子然後這個犯罪嫌疑人就棄保險潛逃了然後最後呢聽兩位的說法就是都是怪罪於因為制度現行的法令不夠完善但是過去其實司法院跟法務部也常常"},{"start":101.475,"end":130.072,"text":"會自己頒布很多的行政指導的原則解函式或是作業方式然後請法官跟檢察官這裡都要配合處理那為什麼在這些事情上面卻沒有積極的作為那本席是感到很遺憾那麼希望就是你們能夠深刻的檢討那本席在這邊也要再講一下就是113年其實監察委員林怡蓉她有去"},{"start":133.026,"end":143.65,"text":"還有去法務部到行政院去進行相關的考察 那麼那個時候呢其實就有這個"},{"start":146.741,"end":164.453,"text":"在進行考察的過程當中其實就針對氣保潛逃的問題然後提出七大重點改善項目我想法務部這邊應該很清楚那其中呢像是第六點跟第七點那我認為這部分的話是法務部應該要趕快做"},{"start":166.093,"end":193.604,"text":"檢討那麼甚至司法院跟法務部有沒有積極推動棄保檢討罪的這個制定當然我們現在今天看起來就要討論了那麼事實上不僅是這個相關的罪則要盡速的制定那麼同時在這個法律還沒有通過之前像施行細則以及這個作業方式其實都要做我想請教法務部你們在這個監委考察之後你們內部有做些檢討嗎"},{"start":195.858,"end":223.241,"text":"各位報告那這個相關的改善措施譬如說科技監控的部分開案量的部分那如同我們上一次的報告我們開案量現在已經從原來的前一年的每年30件現在提升到每年97件所以開案量已經大幅的增加那至於這個有罪羈押制度這涉及到我們跟司法院相關法律見解的不一樣是不是有違反無罪推定原則的問題這還要進行相關的寫下事實上這個法案它是比較爭議性啦有罪就羈押制度所以這法制面的修正那還要進行相關的"},{"start":223.541,"end":249.517,"text":"但是你們現在有進行過相關的討論嗎跟司法院事實上我們早就提出來過了只是大家對這個 老實講對這個條文它有一些見解上的歧義這個條文就通過了另外有關於這個第七點的這個查記平台部分那我們現在查記平台我們現在已經在整合在一個界面上面上面有各種四種平台的整合讓民眾或者是要使用的予以查詢"},{"start":250.357,"end":268.702,"text":"這個我們也做到了所以相關的這個改善部分我們其實已經做相關的改善措施是那請問王副秘書長你們就這一點你們自己內部有在進行檢討嗎跟司法院跟法務部的就第六點還是對就第五點跟第六點呢你們有在開會討論嗎"},{"start":275.245,"end":303.662,"text":"我先說有關於那個防逃的那個部分從那個去年以來其實司法院開過幾次大型會議就是增加法官他們賠利他們有關於就是這個敏感度防逃這個敏感度那一方面就是如果說不羈押的話目前科控確實是最有效的那個手段因為目前使用科控被告還沒有一個那個逃跑的那所以我們也讓那個法官真正了解說這個實際上這個科控他怎麼是願意做的"},{"start":304.022,"end":328.689,"text":"中文字就跑逃跑了嗎沒有他是沒有科控中文字就是你們這中間的橫向聯繫就出了問題嗎那個是法官他不去下那個處分讓他科控那所以我們也鼓勵法官就是說在有那個必要的時候多使用這個科控那他要了解的話就要對這整個那個制度就是說那個了解還有優化那個制度那這是防逃那個部分那另外有關於就是說"},{"start":329.209,"end":332.612,"text":"好 那沒關係 因為本席的這個諮詢時間有限我希望就是說兩個單位應該要積極的溝通協調看如何是強化棄保潛逃的問題好 那接下來我要問一個就是也是日前的新聞報載大家知道有180名的台灣籍的詐騙嫌疑人在柬埔寨"},{"start":350.307,"end":374.825,"text":"遭到逮捕沒有經過我國政府的同意以及之前就分了三批遣送到這個大陸去受審那這當然不僅凸顯出我國在第三國的司法協調上面的困境更讓海峽兩岸的共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議的效能看起來是失靈的而且也受到空前的這個質疑那麼我想"},{"start":376.226,"end":398.164,"text":"當時這個兩岸共同打擊犯罪以及司法互助協議它最重要的精神就在於說雙方要本持著互惠互助保護人民的權益為原則來處理跨境犯罪的案件可是呢我們看到這個狀況其實在近些年來到底法務部在司法互助在跟兩岸司法互助上面你們有沒有"},{"start":399.045,"end":412.716,"text":"更更取得更好的成效還是說根本就這是停滯停滯是屬於停滯的階段沒有任何的成果我首先想請教次長你們知不知道這一批180位嫌犯的名單"},{"start":414.97,"end":438.503,"text":"這個其實在整個過程當中法務部跟外交部都有在積極的想要把這180個是不是可以解送到所以你們是知道這一份名單的這個具體名單知不知道我們目前沒有辦法掌握但這個事件我們從頭到尾都是掌握這80個具體名單我倒是不知道我們有沒有掌握但這個事件從頭到尾本部跟外交部跟警政署都是從頭到尾掌握的"},{"start":438.703,"end":465.698,"text":"所以你們跟柬埔寨的溝通過程當中他們是完全不理不睬然後就直接將這180位嫌疑犯移送到中國大陸去各位報告事實上本部跟警政組透過外交部外交部事後也發布新聞稿就是說他有相關窮盡的努力希望把這些國人把他解送回台灣來進行相關的偵審程序那你們法務部在中間扮演什麼角色"},{"start":467.445,"end":491.235,"text":"我們在法務部 法務部他也許是透過法務秘書也許透過駐外的移民秘書相關去進行相關的實質上的外交干涉但正式的外交途徑還是要透過外交部去做相關的進展現在換以目前外交部的能力我很懷疑他們到底有沒有這樣的一個能力可以去跟柬埔寨那裡做溝通協調那麼好 那現在人到了中國大陸那裡去了那麼我想請問這個"},{"start":494.377,"end":508.278,"text":"市長您知不知道目前在兩岸司法互助的情況之下那麼截至目前為止有多少位大陸移送回台灣的罪犯有多少人各位報告這兩岸"},{"start":509.6,"end":534.087,"text":"按照兩岸共打跟司法互助協議我們進行相關的所謂司法互助其實送達的部分甚至完全沒有受影響非常非常多調查舉證相方也進行了非常多倒是人員遣返的部分的確是這幾年來他人員遣返的數字他有下降那基本上是個位數 個案上的遣返他沒有辦到通盤性的遣返其實按照兩岸共打協議他應該要本席基本上這個查了相關的資料"},{"start":535.227,"end":544.257,"text":"我感到很遺憾的就是說 大家看看啊 從110年然後到113年 我們罪犯接回來的人數是零就是這三年來 罪犯人數是零 110年當時說從98年到110年總共大概差不多15年的時間 我們總共接回來19位"},{"start":557.691,"end":585.655,"text":"那從110年到113年接回來的人數還是19位累計喔 好了我們下一頁來看一下所以呢可以看得出來就是這110年從110年到113年這三年來我們兩岸共同打擊犯罪司法互助協議的執行成效是非常非常糟糕連兩岸的在詐欺罪的合作破獲件數這三年也只有三岸再跟過去比其實差別很大"},{"start":587.435,"end":611.742,"text":"這個成效的部分我剛才跟委員報告就人員遣返的確是比較少但其實司法互助不是只有這個包括委員剛才有提到送達調查取證這個相關的司法處境現在進行的也是非常的頻繁人員遣返不定他涉及到一個雙方互相的一個大家互惠他基本上他今天不遣返我們也沒有辦法叫他願意遣返但人員遣返的確這幾年來他是人數變少的"},{"start":613.442,"end":640.492,"text":"是我想因為這個部分當然也涉及到就是兩岸的這個刑事制度那麼從我們的角度來講我們當然還是希望台灣人能夠回到台灣來接受相關的法律制裁然後要服刑等等那這個部分的話的確是要多加強那麼我也有看到就是你們近幾年來你們編的兩岸司法互助的預算大概就是千萬大概就是上千萬可是"},{"start":642.173,"end":666.995,"text":"看不出來有什麼具體的成效而且是每況愈下我覺得這個問題也很嚴重這當然跟現代政府從民進黨政府執政以來跟對岸的關係在各方面幾乎都已經是降到冰點了都已經是這個兩邊都不交流了連這個司法互助共同打擊犯罪的部分也都停滯不前這個問題是很嚴重"},{"start":669.764,"end":694.854,"text":"而且更何況我們的外交也沒有辦法處理相關的問題那在國外的一些犯罪的人全部都移送到中國大陸去我覺得法務部就這方面還是應該要有更積極的作為你看我們現在人員遣返我們對大陸提出了這個要求356個人然後陸方只遣返了10位那麼陸方對我們說提出3位我們遣返1位"},{"start":695.994,"end":716.383,"text":"可是我們提出的人很多代表我們很多的人是被關在那裡的對 法務部有沒有什麼想法就未來要怎麼樣改善這個部分各位報告 在正式的管道或者兩岸司法互助協議上的管道其實我們都向陸方請求了但人員遣返部分是涉及到雙方的意願請問兩邊還有在開會嗎正式的會議當然沒有但是透過相關的研討會還是有在只是研討會"},{"start":725.007,"end":748.702,"text":"因為這個涉及到我們相關的司法互助或者是相關的情職交換不見得一定要透過正式的途徑有時候透過一個非正式途徑反而容易取得相關的司法互助或者是調查取證那可是你們現在不是近幾年你們到大陸去開會的次數不是越來越少近幾年變少是不是這個是我們這邊的問題還是他們那邊的問題"},{"start":752.609,"end":779.64,"text":"是我們這邊的人不願意去還是他們那邊的人不願意讓我們去這個當然是要多雙方要有意見我的想法還是要更積極的處理這個問題那也請法務部可以把這些年來就是要不就近三年來到底我們遣返了哪些人他的犯罪類型是如何然後兩岸破獲的案件是哪些案件把相關的資訊提供給我可以嗎"},{"start":780.666,"end":790.536,"text":"好那就麻煩前兩個禮拜之內提供給我因為案件數很少吧對不對 好不好那就兩個星期之內提供給本席做參考好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時16分）好，有請王副秘書長還有次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩次長、副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，王副秘書長還有次長。我想剛剛前面一些委員包含昨天有一些委員都問到有關於虐童案的那個教練、犯罪嫌疑人棄保潛逃的問題，剛剛王鴻薇委員其實也說了很多，本席今天其實本來也要講這個議題，但是因為剛剛王鴻薇委員其實也已經請你們要對這個事情要好好地嚴加處理，然後甚至要去追究相關承辦法官的責任，因為剛剛聽了副秘書長的說明，似乎是法官在做相關裁定決定的時候，中間可能出了一些……有疏失，至少您剛剛的說法是不嚴謹，不嚴謹的話，那代表可能他也要負擔一些行政責任，就這個部分的話，我認為不管是司法院或是法務部，其實未來在整個橫向的聯繫上面一定要多加強，因為已經有太多的案例，社會觀感很不好，為什麼這麼重大的一些案子，然後犯罪嫌疑人就棄保潛逃了，然後最後聽兩位的說法就是都怪罪於因為制度、現行的法令不夠完善，但是過去其實司法院跟法務部也常常會自己頒布很多的行政指導的原則、函釋或是作業方式，然後請法官跟檢察官都要配合處理，那為什麼在這些事情上面卻沒有積極的作為？本席是感到很遺憾，希望你們能夠深刻地檢討。","本席在這邊也要再講一下，在113年其實監察委員林郁容有去法務部……對不起，他到行政院去進行相關的考察，在進行考察的過程當中其實就有針對棄保潛逃的問題提出七大重點改善項目，我想法務部這邊應該很清楚，其中像是第六點跟第七點，我認為這個部分的話是法務部應該要趕快做檢討，甚至司法院跟法務部有沒有積極推動棄保潛逃罪的制定，當然我們看起來是今天就要討論，事實上，不僅是相關的罪責要儘速制定，同時在這個法律還沒有通過之前，像施行細則以及作業方式其實都要做，我想請教法務部，你們在監委考察之後，你們內部有做一些檢討嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，相關的改善措施，譬如說科技監控的部分，開案量的部分，如同我們上一次的報告，我們開案量現在已經從原來前一年的每年30件現在提升到每年97件，所以開案量已經大幅地增加。至於有罪羈押制度，這涉及到我們跟司法院相關法律見解的不一樣，是不是有違反無罪推定原則的問題，這還要進行相關的協商，事實上，這個法案是比較有爭議性，因為是有罪就羈押制度，所以法制面的修正還要跟司法院進行相關的溝通。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是你們現在有跟司法院進行過相關的討論嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：事實上我們早就提出來過了，只是老實講，大家對這個條文有一些見解上的歧異，對這個條文有討論過了。另外，有關於第七點的查緝平台部分，我們現在查緝平台已經在整合介面，上面有4種平台的整合，讓民眾或者是要使用的人易於查詢，這個我們也做到了，所以相關的改善部分，我們其實已經做相關的改善措施。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，那請問王副秘書長，你們就這一點自己內部有在進行檢討嗎？跟法務部……"],["王副秘書長梅英：第六點還是……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，就第五點跟第六點呢？你們有在開會討論嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我先說有關於防逃的那個部分，從去年以來其實司法院開過幾次大型會議，就是培力法官有關於防逃的敏感度，那一方面就是如果不羈押的話，目前科控確實是最有效的手段，因為目前使用科控的被告還沒有一個逃跑的，所以我們也讓法官真正了解實際上科控是怎麼運作的。"],["翁委員曉玲：上次科控不是那個鍾文智就逃跑了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有，他是沒有科控，鍾文智……"],["翁委員曉玲：就是因為你們中間的橫向聯繫出了問題嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：那個是法官他不去下那個處分讓他被科控，所以我們也鼓勵法官在有必要的時候多使用科控，他要了解的話就要對整個制度了解，還有優化那個制度，這是防逃的部分。另外有關於就是說……"],["翁委員曉玲：沒關係，因為本席的質詢時間有限，我還有其他問題要詢問，你們兩個單位應該要積極的溝通協調，看如何強化棄保潛逃問題的改善。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好的。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來，我要請教的也是日前新聞有報載的，大家知道有180名臺灣籍的詐騙嫌疑人在柬埔寨遭到逮捕，沒有經過我國政府的同意，之前就分了三批遣送到大陸去受審，這當然不僅凸顯出我國在第三國的司法協調上面的困境，更讓「海峽兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議」的效能看起來是失靈的，也受到空前的質疑。當時這個「海峽當時兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議」最重要的精神就在於雙方要秉持著互惠互助、保護人民權益的原則來處理跨境犯罪的案件，可是在近幾年來，到底法務部在跟兩岸的司法互助上有沒有取得更好的成效？還是根本就是屬於停滯的階段，沒有任何的成果？首先，請教次長知不知道這一批180位嫌犯的名單？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，其實在整個過程當中，法務部跟外交部都有積極地想要把這180位詐騙嫌疑人看是不是可以解送回國。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們是知道這一份名單的？"],["黃次長謀信：關於具體名單知不知道，我們目前沒有辦法掌握，但我們對這個事件從頭到尾都是有掌握的，而這180名嫌犯的具體名單，我倒是不知道我們有沒有掌握，但是對這個事件本部跟外交部還有警政署從頭到尾都是有掌握的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們跟柬埔寨的溝通過程當中，他們是完全不理不睬，然後就直接將這180位嫌疑犯移送到中國大陸去。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上，本部跟警政署是有透過外交部，而外交部事後也有發布新聞稿說明，他們已有窮盡一切努力，希望把這些國人解送回臺灣進行相關的偵審程序，外交部……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們法務部在中間扮演什麼角色？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，法務部也許是透過法務秘書，也許透過駐外移民秘書進行相關實質上的外交干涉，正式的外交途徑還是要透過外交部做相關的干涉。"],["翁委員曉玲：以目前外交部的能力，我很懷疑他們到底有沒有這樣的能力可以去跟柬埔寨做溝通協調，現在犯人都遣送到了中國大陸。請教次長，你知不知道目前在兩岸司法互助的情況之下，截至目前為止，有多少位從大陸移送回臺灣的罪犯？有多少人？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們是按照兩岸共打跟司法互助協議進行相關的司法互助，其實送達的部分甚至完全沒有受到影響，還是非常多，在調查取證的部分，雙方也進行了非常多，倒是人員遣返的部分，的確這幾年來人員遣返的數字是有下降的，基本上是個位數，是個案上的遣返，沒有辦到通盤性的遣返；其實按照兩岸共打協議，應該要……"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上，本席查了相關的資料，我感到很遺憾，從110年到113年我們接回來的罪犯人數是零，也就是這3年來罪犯人數是零，從98年到110年大概差不多總共15年的時間，我們接回來總共19位，從110年到113年接回來的人數還是19位，這是累計喔！所以可以看得出來，從110年到113年這3年來，我們兩岸共同打擊犯罪、司法互助協議的執行成效是非常非常糟糕，連兩岸這3年在詐欺罪合作的破獲件數也只有3案，這跟過去相比差別很大。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個成效的部分，就人員遣返的確是比較少，但司法互助不是只有這個，包括委員剛才有提到的送達、調查取證，這個相關的司法互助也是進行得非常頻繁，人員遣返就不一定，因涉及到雙方互惠，基本上，他們今天不遣返，我們也沒有辦法，要他們願意遣返，但人員遣返的確這幾年來人數是有變少的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，因為這個部分當然也涉及到兩岸的刑事制度，從我們的角度來講，當然還是希望臺灣人能夠回到臺灣來接受相關的法律制裁及服刑等等，這個部分的確是要多加強；我有看到你們近幾年來所編列兩岸司法互助的預算大概是上千萬，可是看不出來有什麼具體的成效，而且是每況愈下，我覺得這個問題也很嚴重，從民進黨政府執政以來，跟對岸關係的各方面幾乎都已經是降到冰點了，已經是兩邊都不交流了，連司法互助及共同打擊犯罪的部分也都停滯不前，這個問題是很嚴重的，更何況我們的外交也沒有辦法處理相關的問題，一些在國外犯罪的人全部都移送到中國大陸去，我覺得法務部就這方面還是應該要有更積極的作為。","現在人員遣返的部分，我們對大陸提出了356個人的遣返要求，然後陸方只遣返了10位，陸方對我們提出3位，我們遣返1位，可是我們提出的人數很多，代表我們有很多人是被關在那裡的，法務部有沒有什麼想法，在未來要怎麼樣改善這個部分？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，其實在正式或者兩岸司法互助協議上的管道，我們都有向陸方請求，但人員遣返部分是涉及到雙方的意願，如果我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問兩邊的司法單位還有在開會嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：正式的會議是沒有，但是透過相關的研討會還是有在交流……"],["翁委員曉玲：只是研討會？"],["黃次長謀信：因為這個涉及到……我們相關的司法互助或者相關的情資交換不見得一定要透過正式的途徑，有時候透過非正式的途徑反而更容易取得相關的司法互助或者調查取證。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是你們近幾年到大陸去開會的次數不是越來越少了？"],["黃次長謀信：對，近幾年有變少。"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：是我們這邊的問題還是他們那邊的問題？是我們這邊的人不願意去，還是他們那邊的人不願意讓我們去？"],["黃次長謀信：當然是雙方都要有意願啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：我的想法是還是要更積極地處理這個問題，也請法務部把近3年來到底我們遣返了哪些人、他的犯罪類型是如何、兩岸破獲的案件是哪些案件等相關的資訊提供給我，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：麻煩在兩個禮拜之內提供給我。"],["黃次長謀信：好的，兩個禮拜內。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為案件數很少，對不對？就兩個星期之內提供給本席參考，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員羅智強等25 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案、\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員陳\n培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十九條及第四百五十一條之一條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員許智\n傑等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144301_00001"}}},{"id":"160611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e54fc12062c4146cb6c89945c4c3ca21e1c2be5dfb0591b1bff151987b109fadff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:15:45 - 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謝謝召委 有請我們陳主委好 有請陳主委主委好委員好主委 不然想跟您請問一下你們的解凍案什麼時候要送來立法院"},{"start":33.817,"end":47.595,"text":"已經送了吧已經送了都已經送了我那個院長前天才宣布要解凍全部送解凍的報告這麼快我們一直在準備"},{"start":50.177,"end":61.215,"text":"對不起您講什麼我們一直都在準備一直都在準備好那在這之前想跟你請問一下有沒有之前有收到所謂行政院有說只是要暫緩送"},{"start":62.694,"end":85.36,"text":"我沒有聽到這個消息沒有沒有好OK我想針對預算的解凍左院長前天才表示並非是行政院有任何的要求而是每個部會有任何都有不同的狀況請問主委各部會有不同狀況那請問河岸會有沒有什麼狀況有沒有遇到什麼具體的困難首先我們的這個收集預算執行資料有個專案方法"},{"start":90.635,"end":112.665,"text":"我們一開始我們主要的馬上的感覺就是我們旅費被砍了很多很多要到現場視察而且或是等等都沒辦法做要現場視察或突襲檢查之類解凍的藥件寫說要突襲檢查"},{"start":122.761,"end":146.594,"text":"主委您怎麼好像完全狀況外因為你剛剛說突襲檢查我是說有不預警視察我們河南會常常對一些廠商有做不預警視察很好啊這樣這看起來是民眾喜歡的一個概念可是這樣我們才可以減少的話這方面的視察就必須要減少"},{"start":148.143,"end":177.452,"text":"不好意思你講這句話我聽不太清楚如果我們像是差旅費被砍了之後使我們這方面的經費減少必須要減少這方面的不預警視察對不起因為您的口音有時候聽不太清楚不好意思那您說差旅費被刪除所以不預警視察造成你的困難你沒辦法這麼多的不預警視察是這樣子嗎"},{"start":178.213,"end":179.682,"text":"這是其中一個因素"},{"start":180.393,"end":207.992,"text":"其中一個因素好沒關係我看你還有什麼具體的困難都請提出沒關係還有呢是跟委員報告一下我們其實剛剛主委提到的是我們在通山的部分因為差旅費有刪減不能留用所以造成我們一些視察業務的影響但是我們還是會在預算範圍之內做到我們荷蘭管制應該執行的業務我想有多少錢做多少事是是是那不預警視察跟預警視察"},{"start":209.295,"end":232.125,"text":"都跟差旅費我覺得沒有多大的關係啦難道預警視察就沒有差旅費的問題不預警視察就有差旅費的問題應該不是啦但是我想民眾的多半都希望是不要有所準備去了解第一線的狀況那你是說你的不預警視察是成為解凍的主要之一的條件嗎"},{"start":233.882,"end":256.619,"text":"再跟委員說明我們的解凍案在114年總共九項凍結案那其中有一項專案報告是要針對預算執行資料來做一些蒐集那我們其他的解凍案也有很多在委員會委員關切的議題所以其實這段時間我們都在整理這些資料所以我們在整理完畢之後在昨天發文送來大院那也請委員支持我們的預算解凍"},{"start":257.959,"end":285.584,"text":"只要前提在這個部分上如果是真的為我們的核安來努力我想大家一定會支持所有的這些相關的一個手段都是希望核安會能夠更加督促不管是我們的核能議題之外以及核能相關安全那相信剛剛也有委員有提到這個河山火災的案子大家都一定會很關注啊嚇死啊所以這也都是核安必須要加緊去處理的一個部分"},{"start":285.984,"end":312.319,"text":"但是我想先來問賴清德總統啊之前說新核能採開放的一個態度因為他4月22有接見這個環保團體拋出行政團隊一貫的立場就是對未來新的先進的核能技術保持開放的一個態度任何的政策變更都必須滿足核安核廢社會共識三個主要的前提才能夠進行那想請問一下"},{"start":313.396,"end":336.331,"text":"我們現在是行政團隊的議員 那想請問你們所謂的新核能具體是指哪些技術呢現在主要是指的是small module reactor小型模組化反應器 核融核也是未來核融核也是啦對不對 模組化的小型反應爐這些都是嘛對不對 那有沒有具體的時間表"},{"start":337.745,"end":355.273,"text":"或者是有沒有接下來有一個進度因為我知道世界的趨勢在這邊但是我們有沒有去追我們現在國務院院有已經有一部分研究計畫是在裡面然後我們現在有個比較長期的研究計畫之前國務院院長高院長是是請說"},{"start":357.774,"end":370.979,"text":"SMR計畫今年會離總共補助大概2300萬做相關的研究那明年主委來了以後還加碼,加碼1800萬,大概有3500萬加倍今年2300萬,明年5800萬?沒有,加碼1800萬1800萬,對不起,因為你麥克風靠近一點加碼1800萬,這個國際上應該2030年左右"},{"start":383.184,"end":404.281,"text":"才會比較能夠穩定對SMR國際上的SMR有商品化的產品大約在五年以後會有商品化的產品出來可以大量生產所以我們希望有一個大型比較具規模的研究計畫最近跟國科會也前兩個禮拜做過報告希望能夠具體的研究三種新的"},{"start":404.901,"end":418.654,"text":"當然你有這樣子的一個具體的期程是預計沒有叫你保證那對於這樣子的新核能的一個研究所編列的預算我想不會有任何的立委會去有所疑議甚至去阻擋所以2300跟1800嘛今年2300嘛"},{"start":421.957,"end":444.238,"text":"明年再加一千八我剛聽到五千八那再來就是說對於這個我們剛剛說的核安是我們最重要的一個考量所以剛剛有許多的立委對於這個核三的一個火災案大家都非常的關切相信現階段是沒有什麼太大的問題對吧對核安方面並沒有造成影響"},{"start":444.718,"end":472.719,"text":"好 但是我們要知道 縣府獲報的時候是大概晚7分鐘那原因是廠方自行滅火未通報所以我想問一下 本事件通報的原因是什麼未來如何確保第一時間同步的通報地方政府 民代 居民還是自行滅火是你們本身就要做的一個SOP最重要的一環所以你們滅完火才會通報"},{"start":474.281,"end":491.917,"text":"也請高組長回答這個問題是請說跟委員說明當天是縣長工作人員在進行切割然後高溫的火花噴濺到冷卻水塔裡面那縣長有工作人員也準備一些滅火器那發現有一些火星的時候"},{"start":492.958,"end":511.477,"text":"第一線工作人員會先行滅火另外會通報廠內本身就有消防隊通報廠內消防隊前去滅火同時台電公司和三廠也去通報地方政府因為他們彼此之間有一個聯繫的溝通管道"},{"start":512.958,"end":531.985,"text":"看起來是準備得很完善可是為什麼會說縣府貨報還晚7分鐘就台電公司所提出來資訊顯示是因為河山廠要通報的同仁當天應該是出差所以訊息可能有點耽誤出差 沒有職務代理人"},{"start":532.725,"end":558.167,"text":"所以他後續的檢討就是會增加廠長去跟好來那這樣子既然你說到這就是重點那是不是對於任何的一個這樣子的一個緊急事件對外通報的SOP流程是不是可以擬定好一個缺陷的方案以後讓我們知道一下這部分應該沒困難吧跟委員說明這一部分我們會裡面已經要求台電公司針對跟地方這一部分或者是跟會裡面的通報"},{"start":561.175,"end":585.734,"text":"我們也希望了解像你剛剛說的嘛你們自己有所謂的消防隊你們有一組人馬正在滅火有一組人馬負責通報這些東西能不能做出一個SOP然後來讓本委會所有委員知道一下那我想這個部分我們希望能夠了解再來卓院長有說要查明事故的原因深切追究那絕不會寬待但是目前有沒有相關人員受到懲處"},{"start":587.542,"end":608.603,"text":"跟委員說明這屬於台電公司內部的管理這部分所以可能台電所以要問台電你們不會去詢問他一下因為屬於他內部的行政管理但是SOP這個部分我想你們應該責無旁貸作為一個核安的主要主管機關應該是幫忙協助吧這可以嗎可以好那會後希望拿到這個資料是謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時15分）謝謝召委，有請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，請問一下，你們的解凍案什麼時候要送來立法院？"],["陳主任委員明真：已經送了吧！"],["羅委員廷瑋：都已經送了？"],["陳主任委員明真：已經送了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長前天才宣布要解凍案的報告全部送來，結果你們速度這麼快？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們一直都有在準備……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起！您講什麼我沒有聽清楚……"],["陳主任委員明真：我們一直都有在準備。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一直都有在準備，好。請問一下，之前你們有沒有收到所謂行政院指示要暫緩送？"],["陳主任委員明真：我沒有聽到這個消息，沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有，好。針對預算的解凍，卓院長前天才表示，並非是行政院有任何的要求，而是每個部會都有不同的狀況，請問主委，因為各部會有不同狀況，那請問核安有沒有什麼狀況？有沒有遇到什麼具體的困難？"],["陳主任委員明真：首先，一開始、馬上的感覺就是我們的旅費被砍了很多，因為我們有很多要到現場視察等等的，那就沒辦法做了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：要現場視察有困難？"],["陳主任委員明真：現場視察或突襲檢查之類等等的，還有差旅費也被刪減了……"],["羅委員廷瑋：解凍的要件寫說要突襲檢查？主委，您怎麼好像完全狀況外？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有，我是說……"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為你剛剛說突襲檢查。"],["陳主任委員明真：我是說有不預警視察，我們核安會常常對一些廠商有做不預警視察。"],["羅委員廷瑋：很好啊！看起來是民眾喜歡的一個概念。"],["陳主任委員明真：可是我們差旅費減少的話，這方面的視察就必須要減少。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，您講這句話我聽不太清楚。"],["陳主任委員明真：像是我們差旅費被砍了之後，使得我們這方面的經費減少，所以必須要減少這方面的不預警視察。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起，因為您的口音，有時候我聽不太清楚，不好意思。"],["陳主任委員明真：抱歉。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您說差旅費被刪除，所以造成你不預警視察的困難，你沒辦法有這麼多的不預警視察，是這樣子嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：這是其中一個因素。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係，我看你還有什麼具體的困難，請都提出，沒關係，還有呢？"],["何主任雲英：跟委員報告一下，剛剛主委提到的是我們在通刪的部分，因為差旅費有刪減，不能流用，所以造成我們一些視察業務的影響，但是我們還是會在預算範圍之內做到核安管制應該執行的業務。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想有多少錢做多少事。"],["何主任雲英：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不預警視察跟預警視察我覺得都跟差旅費沒有多大的關係，難道預警視察就沒有差旅費的問題，不預警視察就有差旅費的問題？應該不是，但是我想民眾多半都希望，不要有所準備地去了解第一線的狀況，所以您是說你們的不預警視察是成為解凍的主要條件之一嗎？"],["何主任雲英：再跟委員說明，我們的解凍案在114年總共有9項凍結案，其中有1項專案報告是要針對預算執行資料來做一些蒐集，我們其他解凍案也有很多委員會委員關切的議題，其實這段時間我們都在整理這些資料，所以我們整理完畢之後，在昨天發文送來大院，也請委員支持我們的預算解凍。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，只要前提在這個部分上如果是真的為我們的核安來努力，我想大家一定會支持，所有這些相關的手段，都是希望核安會能夠更加督促不管是我們的核能議題以及核能相關安全。","剛剛也有委員有提到核三火災的案子，大家一定都很關注，真的嚇死了！這也都是核安必須要加緊去處理的一個部分。但是我想先問的是，賴清德總統之前說，他對新核能採開放的態度，即他4月22號接見環保團體時拋出行政團隊一貫的立場，就是對未來新的、先進的核能技術保持開放的態度，任何的政策變更都必須滿足核安、核廢、社會共識三個主要前提才能夠進行。請問一下，你們現在是行政團隊的一員，想請問你們所謂的新核能具體指的是哪些技術呢？"],["陳主任委員明真：現在主要指的是小型模組化反應器（Small Modular Reactor，SMR）；核融合也是未來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：核融合也是，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：也是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：小型模組化的反應爐，目前主要都是這些，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那有沒有具體的時間表或者是接下來有沒有一個進度？因為我知道世界的趨勢是在這邊，但是我們有沒有去追呢？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們國原院現在已經有一部分研究計畫是在做這個，然後我們現在有一個比較長期的研究計畫，這部分請國原院高院長說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請國原院說明。"],["高院長梓木：SMR計畫今年會裡總共補助大概2,300萬來做相關的研究，主委來了以後，明年還加碼，加碼1,800萬，大概有3,500萬，加倍。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今年2,300萬，明年5,800萬？"],["高院長梓木：沒有，加碼1,800萬。"],["羅委員廷瑋：1,800萬，對不起，請您靠近麥克風一點。"],["高院長梓木：好，加碼1,800萬。"],["羅委員廷瑋：1,800萬。"],["高院長梓木：是，國際上應該是2030年左右就有商業化。"],["羅委員廷瑋：才會比較能夠穩定。"],["高院長梓木：對，國際上SMR商品化的產品，大約在5年以後會有商品化的產品出來，可以大量生產。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["高院長梓木：所以我們希望有一個大型、比較具規模的研究計畫，前兩個禮拜也跟國科會做過報告，希望能夠具體研究三種新的SMR。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然你有這樣子一個具體的期程，是預計，沒有叫你保證啦！對於這樣子的新核能研究所編列的預算，我想不會有任何立委有所疑義，甚至去阻擋，所以是2,300萬跟1,800萬嘛！今年2,300萬嘛！"],["高院長梓木：明年再加1,800萬。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛聽到5,800萬。再來就是我們剛剛說的，核安是我們最重要的一個考量，剛剛有許多立委對於核三的火災案都非常關切，相信現階段是沒有什麼太大的問題，對吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：對，對核安方面並沒有造成影響。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我們要知道，縣府獲報的時候大概是晚了7分鐘，原因是廠方自行滅火、未通報，所以我想問一下，本事件通報的原因是什麼？未來如何確保第一時間同步通報地方政府、民代、居民，還是自行滅火是你們本身就要做的SOP最重要的一環，所以你們滅完火才會通報？"],["陳主任委員明真：請高組長說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，請說。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，當天是現場工作人員在進行切割，然後高溫的火花噴濺到冷卻水塔裡面，現場工作人員也準備一些滅火器，發現有一些火星的時候，第一線工作人員會先行滅火，另外會通報廠內本身就有的消防隊，通報廠內消防隊前去滅火，同時台電公司核三廠也去通報地方政府，因為他們彼此之間有一個聯繫的溝通管道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：看起來是準備得很完善，可是為什麼會說縣府獲報還晚7分鐘？"],["高組長斌：就台電公司所提出來的資訊顯示，是因為核三廠要通報的同仁當天應該是出差，所以訊息可能有點耽誤。"],["羅委員廷瑋：出差？沒有職務代理人？"],["高組長斌：所以後續的檢討就是會增加廠長去跟地方的溝通。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，既然你說到，這就是重點，是不是對於任何一個這樣子的緊急事件，對外通報的SOP流程是不是可以擬定好一個確切的方案以後，讓我們知道一下？這部分應該沒困難吧？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，這部分我們會裡面已經要求台電公司針對跟地方或者是跟會裡面的通報，要持續精進管理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們也希望了解，像你剛剛說的，你們自己有消防隊，你們有一組人馬正在滅火、有一組人馬負責通報，這些東西能不能做出一個SOP，然後讓本委員會所有委員知道一下？我想這個部分，我們希望能夠了解。再來，卓院長有說要查明事故的原因，深切追究，絕不會寬貸，但是目前有沒有相關人員受到懲處？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，這屬於台電公司內部的管理部分，所以可能台電……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以要問台電？你們不會去詢問他一下？"],["高組長斌：因為屬於他們內部的行政管理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。但是SOP這個部分，我想你們應該責無旁貸，作為一個核安的主要主管機關，應該是幫忙協助吧？這可以嗎？"],["高組長斌：可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，會後希望拿到這個資料。"],["高組長斌：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，主委請回。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5b09b94afe79a45e29742596ee20a55b8c2be5dfb0591b1bf0cd442c3dfdba8065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:09:20 - 10:19:49","影片長度":"00:10:29","會議時間":"2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n 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謝謝主席麻煩農業部杜次長"},{"start":18.078,"end":45.395,"text":"市委員好市長好首先就要來討論一下今天的主題就是關稅對於我國農業的衝擊我們雖然已經不是以農立國的主要的一個內涵可是我們知道事實上大家非常關心這次的整個關稅不對等之下美國的要求對農業造成的影響大家都非常非常的擔心剛剛也有很多委員也諮詢過"},{"start":46.756,"end":70.299,"text":"那我們也了解 其實農業是一個非常具有危險性的產業 它危險是來自於有點靠天之犯以外 很多的事情可能都會受到波及那我們看一下台灣對美國進口的大宗品類裡面 我們也知道黃小玉就是最主要的 另外就是牛肉那個牛肉剛剛有提到 到底美國他們在擔心"},{"start":71.159,"end":88.266,"text":"進大臺灣的時候會受到哪一些的影響那如果在零關稅的情形之下我們如何能夠做相對的因應措施我們可以往下看知道說其實我國牛94%都是從國外進口當然包括美國 巴拉圭還有澳洲 紐西蘭等等"},{"start":88.886,"end":113.617,"text":"那目前針對這一部分美國認為說我們所設定的要求就是無法讓他們進口絞牛肉或者是供動物食用的牛肉液的產品還有美國的散裝牛肉等等所以他們很希望能夠解禁美國牛肉的產品這個剛剛食藥署那邊也表達過"},{"start":114.757,"end":127.597,"text":"在目前這方面對於國民的國人健康的部分應該要有更周延的好的一個方式來把關所以針對這部分不知道農業部有什麼因應的措施或者是想法"},{"start":128.308,"end":156.12,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心也謝謝委員特別支持台灣農業因為就像剛剛委員提到的農業其實是一個非常特別的一個產業那不是只有供我們使用的安全其實對於糧食安全對於整個土地的使用這件事情是長久的那即便是剛剛委員特別關切就是說牛肉的部分確實台灣自己供應自己的牛肉的數量不多大概5到6%所以大部分90幾%都是進口這是第一點"},{"start":158.001,"end":183.44,"text":"那第二点就是其实国人食品饮食习惯的改变因为以往其实像在可能四五十年前农业时候其实吃牛的人不多但是现在其实因为消费习惯改变所以吃牛的人多那国内的肉牛产业有它的特殊性但是牛肉其实是因为第一个饲养跟整个环境然后能够提供到消费者的手上"},{"start":184.261,"end":197.962,"text":"是不一樣的因為我們很快從土砂場到消費端的時間是短的那比起進口牛肉要經過運輸冷凍所以對消費者的使用上面跟他的通路是有區隔的但是回過頭來就是說那就農業部來講"},{"start":199.639,"end":213.541,"text":"怎麼維持我們台灣肉牛產業的這個競爭性這是農業部要做的那至於剛剛委員提到就是說那美國關切他們牛肉進來台灣好像希望能夠有一些在規定上面的改變我想這現在到兩個層級啦"},{"start":215.163,"end":234.07,"text":"第一个成绩是我相信所有的出口国包括我们台湾的农产品要出国我当然希望争取最好的条件希望把所有的相关的限制措施能够降低我相信美国也是基于这样的立场来要求台湾看能不能尽量再打开市场那这是美方立场但就我台湾来讲"},{"start":235.154,"end":254.326,"text":"就農業部來講我的重點就是還是要維持我們台灣的農業的安全所以不管是在進口牛肉也許剛剛從那個衛福部這邊的報告其實大家也都知道在不管怎麼開放怎麼談判其實都是基於科學而且國人的安全農業其實一定都要保障我想這是基本立場是不會變的"},{"start":255.086,"end":281.653,"text":"是 我非常同意必須要有這樣的具體的做法不過我們也發現雖然是維持6%可是依照數據看起來我們這個養牛的這個頭數啊還是每年在減少 去年甚至減了4.5%那到底是什麼原因 讓我們的這個企業 企業好一點是炒不高 還是有什麼其他的因素所以怎麼樣來維持我們的這個競爭力"},{"start":284.193,"end":304.224,"text":"其實基本上我想農業是辛苦的但是農業也在改變譬如說池谷漸漸在減少但是池底雖然戶數減少但是飼養的規模增加所以這是一個產業調整的方向所以對於我們來說我們是覺得說怎麼讓台灣的農業不管是在續勤業也好農業也好怎麼讓我們的農業第一個因為人"},{"start":310.808,"end":325.323,"text":"漸漸變少但是我們的經營效能要能夠提升不管是給自動化給智能化或是在循環在減碳在能夠讓整個永續上面來做這我們會來做至於企業啊這會減少我們也是覺得說"},{"start":327.345,"end":344.356,"text":"當然現流的精靈上面其實都有在改變啦那但是我們是希望就是說留下來有競爭力的那也是我們農業部的最主要的工作就是勞動農業做工作這個事情我們一定會來大家來照顧我們的農民讓他們在精靈上面其實能夠得到更多的幫助還能更有效能"},{"start":344.87,"end":368.848,"text":"是就是各方面的環境或者是勞動力都需要持續的來分析希望至少至少維持他們該有的這些好的環境好那再過來就是有關於這個我們出口到美國大部分都是以這個魚類為主當然最大宗還是這個蝴蝶蘭的這個產品"},{"start":370.629,"end":392.566,"text":"那趙薇其實也很關心這個毛豆啦毛豆其實就很辛苦雖然是占了第五、第六位不過我們可以發現十個大量的出口裡面其中也就有六項是屬於這個魚產品這魚產品其實川普他也很希望說讓海鮮再次偉大我們可以看下一個"},{"start":394.467,"end":421.494,"text":"換燈片告訴我們說川普覺得救美國希望再次偉大同時事實上海鮮是重要的我們可以看到媒體有相關的報導所以川普要下令要救漁業那這個對台灣可能就有一些衝擊因為我們出美國漁產品有那麼多想要做全球海鮮的霸主那針對這部分不知道目前市長這邊有沒有哪些因應措施"},{"start":422.343,"end":440.478,"text":"好謝謝委員關心其實農產品第一個就像我剛提到農產品的生產其實它有糧食安全的重要性所以不是說有就出口主要是我們自己的台灣糧食自己要能夠維持這是第一點那第二點是那當然如果有全世界的市場我們當然是要能夠去爭取跟維持特別是在海鮮這一塊其實我們跟美國的"},{"start":443.22,"end":470.568,"text":"水產的形態不太一樣我們的養殖業相對強那當然也有一些遠洋跟近海的捕撈作業但對我們來講其實美國的關稅對我們來說就是第一美國的市場要賭第二其他市場要去賣就是說我們的市場佈局其實當然不能只看美國其他市場也要去這樣對農業的整個生產跟做調節才是有幫助那美國自己對自己的不管是農業啦海鮮啦對美國所有的製造業當然美國希望他們是"},{"start":471.656,"end":499.386,"text":"有他們的優勢那在台灣我當然是顧我們自己的農業也好我們希望我們的農業不只是維持我們自己的糧食的供應糧食安全當然也是可以去拼市場我們一定去拼所以今拜我們推出三個面向的六大措施也是希望讓我們的產業受影響的狀況能夠降低第二個就過這個時間大家就會來拼國外市場要去購新的市場要去拓展國內的產銷要把它做好我想這是農業部目前的做法跟目標"},{"start":499.946,"end":527.462,"text":"是可以理解不過我們也知道說在川普想要再讓這個美國的漁業再次能夠變成全球的霸主他針對於不同的國家也提出有相關的一些要求因為我們三度上榜強迫勞動清單裡面所受到相關的影響那這部分其實漁業署也非常努力在做一些改善的措施包括要改善這個漁工的待遇等等"},{"start":527.882,"end":554.819,"text":"那其實他所提到就是要加強美國要加強審查進口海鮮的非法漁勞跟強迫勞動的現在大綱所提到一個動力的一些如何能夠讓我們的漁工在特定的情形之下能夠符合所有的這些要求那這部分不知道農業部跟勞動部之間有做好哪一些的溝通跟行政執行管道的處"},{"start":555.393,"end":571.027,"text":"有謝謝委員的提醒這件事情其實我們這幾天對於這個在海上捕撈的這些我們的夥伴因為他們在我們的基礎上做工作是我們的夥伴那這件事情其實我們這邊做了許多的一些改善比方說我們的那個黃牌被歐盟"},{"start":572.788,"end":600.384,"text":"放上之後我們取消掉就表示我們做了一些改善那其實所有對於在海上工作夥伴的勞動力的改善不只是在海上我們譬如說我們的前鎮漁港的有一些漁工設施的改善就是說不是只在船上他們克服了上岸之後的這些我們也都有在考慮也做了一些改進那海上的部分大概包括他們的薪資啦包括他們的通訊啦Wi-Fi這些建置還有這個清查"},{"start":601.645,"end":625.012,"text":"他們的作業情形這些都有在做那勞動部跟我們其實也一直在就我們的這個勞動力的改善對於這個基準的提升這個部分也非常謝謝我們立法院很多委員其實都很支持幫我們在對這件事情上面有一些協助跟提醒謝謝透過大家努力可以共同克服這個關稅帶來一個衝擊好謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時9分）謝謝主席，麻煩農業部杜次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：次長好。首先要來討論一下今天的主題，就是關稅對於我國農業的衝擊。我們現在已經不是以以農立國為主要的內涵，可是我們知道事實上大家非常關心這次整個關稅不對等之下，美國的要求對農業造成的影響，大家都非常地擔心，剛剛也有很多委員質詢過。我們也瞭解，農業是一個非常具有危險性的產業，它的危險是來自於除了有點靠天吃飯以外，還有很多事情可能都會受到波及。","我們來看一下臺灣對美國進口的大宗品類裡面，我們也知道黃、小、玉是最主要的，另外就是牛肉。那個牛肉剛剛有提到，美國擔心牛肉進到臺灣的時候會受到哪一些的影響。如果在零關稅的情形之下，我們如何能做相對的因應措施？","我們可以往下看就知道，我國牛肉有94%都是從國外進口，當然還包括美國、巴拉圭還有澳洲、紐西蘭等等，目前針對這個部分，美國認為我們所設定的要求就是無法讓他們進口絞牛肉，或者是供動物食用的牛肉，還有美國的散裝牛油等等，所以他們很希望能夠解禁美國牛肉的產品，對此剛剛食藥署也表達過，目前這方面對國人健康的部分應該要有更周延、更好的方式來把關。針對這部分，不知道農業部有什麼因應的措施或者是想法？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，也謝謝委員特別支持臺灣農業，因為就像剛剛委員提到的，農業其實是一個非常特別的產業。不是只有我們食用的安全，其實對於糧食安全、對於整個土地的使用，這件事情是長久的，即使剛剛委員特別關切到牛肉的部分，確實，臺灣自己供應給自己的牛肉數量不多，大概是5%到6%，所以大部分百分之九十幾都是進口，這是第一點。","第二點是國人飲食習慣的改變，因為以往可能像在四、五十年前的農業社會吃牛肉的人不多，但是現在因為消費習慣改變，吃牛肉的人變多，國內的肉牛產業有它的特殊性，我們的牛肉其實是因為……第一個，飼養跟整個環境，能夠提供到消費者的手上是不一樣的，因為我們從屠宰場到消費端的時間是短的，比起進口牛肉要經過運輸、冷凍，所以消費者在使用上跟它的通路是有區隔的。但是回過頭來，就農業部來講，要怎麼維持我們臺灣肉牛產業的競爭性，這是農業部要做的。","至於剛剛委員提到，美國關切他們牛肉進來臺灣，希望能在規定上能有所改變，我想這牽涉到兩個層級。第一個層級是，我相信所有的出口國，包括我們臺灣的農產品要出口，我當然希望能爭取最好的條件，希望所有相關的限制措施能夠降低，我相信美國也是基於這樣的立場來要求臺灣，看能不能盡量再打開市場，這是美方的立場。但就我們臺灣來講，就農業部來講，我的重點就還是要維持我們臺灣的農業安全，所以不管是在進口牛肉……也許剛剛從衛福部這邊的報告，其實大家也都知道，不管再怎麼開放、怎麼談判，其實都是基於科學，而且國人的安全、農業都一定要保障，我想這個基本的立場是不會變的。"],["王委員正旭：是，我非常同意必須要有這樣具體的作法，不過我們也發現，雖然是維持6%，可是依照數據看起來，我們養牛的頭數還是每年在減少，去年甚至減了4.5%，到底是什麼原因讓我們養牛養不到位，是草不夠還是有什麼其他的因素？所以要怎麼維持我們的競爭力？"],["杜次長文珍：其實基本上，我想農業是辛苦的，但是農業也在改變，譬如像養牛是漸漸在減少，但養豬卻變成……雖然戶數是減少，但是飼養的規模增加，所以這是一個產業調整的方向。所以對我們來講，我覺得要怎麼讓臺灣的農業不管是在畜禽業還是農業，第一個是因為人漸漸變少了，但是我們的經營效能要能夠提升，不管是自動化、智能化，或是在循環、在減碳、在能夠做到永續上面，這個我們會來做，至於養牛的變少，我們也是覺得……當然現場的經營其實都有在改變，但是我們希望留下有競爭力的，而農業部最主要的工作就是讓他們留在農業做工作，大家一定會照顧我們的農民，讓他們在經營上面能夠得到更多的幫助，也可以更有效能。"],["王委員正旭：各方面的環境或者是勞動力都需要持續分析，至少維持他們該有的好的環境。"],["杜次長文珍：是，謝謝委員支持。"],["王委員正旭：再來，我們出口到美國大部分都是以漁類為主，當然最大宗還是蝴蝶蘭這個產品，召委其實也很關心毛豆，因為毛豆種得很辛苦，雖然只是占了第六位，不過我們可以發現，十個大量出口的項目裡面，其中就有六項是屬於漁產品。其實川普也很希望讓海鮮再次偉大，川普希望美國再次偉大的同時，事實上海鮮是重要的，我們可以看到媒體有相關的報導，所以川普下令要救漁業，這個對臺灣可能就有一些衝擊，因為我們出口美國的漁產品那麼大、那麼多，而他想要做全球海鮮的霸主，針對這個部分，不知道目前次長這邊有沒有哪一些因應措施？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，就像我剛剛提到的，農產品的生產其實有糧食安全的重要性，所以不是為了出口，主要是我們臺灣的糧食自給要能夠維持，這是第一點。第二點，如果有全世界的市場，我們當然是要能夠去爭取跟維持，特別是在海鮮這一塊，其實我們跟美國的水產型態不太一樣，我們養殖業相對是強的，當然也有一些遠洋跟近海的捕撈作業，但對我們來講，其實美國的關稅對我們來說，第一個、美國的市場要顧；第二個、其他的市場要去拚，就是我們的市場布局當然不能只看美國，其他市場也要有，這樣對農業的整個生產跟調節才是有幫助的。美國對自己的不管是農業、海鮮，對於美國所有的製造業，當然美國希望有他們的優勢，但在臺灣，我們當然是顧自己的農業，我們也希望農業不只是維持自己的糧食供應、糧食安全，當然也是可以去拚市場，我們一定要去拚，所以這次我們推出三個面向、六大措施，也是希望讓我們產業受影響的狀況能夠降低，才能渡過這段時間，大家一起來拚，因此國外的市場要去顧、新的市場要去拓展、國內的產銷要做好，我想這是農業部目前的作法跟目標。"],["王委員正旭：可以理解，不過我們也知道川普想要讓美國漁業再次變成全球霸主，他針對不同國家也提出相關的要求，因為我們三度上榜美強迫勞動清單而受到相關的影響，針對這個部分，其實漁業署也非常努力在做一些改善的措施，包括要改善漁工的待遇等等。其實他所提到的就是美國要加強審查進口海鮮的非法漁撈跟強迫勞動的問題，這部分就會牽涉到我們剛才提到的勞動力，如何能夠讓漁工在特定的情形之下符合所有的要求，這部分不知道農業部跟勞動部之間有做好哪一些的溝通跟行政執行管道的處理？"],["杜次長文珍：有，謝謝委員的提醒，關於這件事情，我們這幾年對於在海上捕撈的夥伴，因為他們在漁船上工作，也算是我們的夥伴，所以我們這邊做了許多的改善，比方我們被歐盟放上黃牌之後又被取消掉，就表示我們做了一些改善，所有對於在海上工作夥伴的勞動力改善，不只是在海上，譬如前鎮漁港有一些漁工設施的改善，也就是不是只有在船上，他們靠岸、上岸之後的這些我們也都有在考慮、也做了一些改進；而海上的部分，包括他們的薪資、包括他們的通訊、WiFi的建置，以及清查他們的作業情形，這些都有在做。勞動部跟我們也一直著力在勞動力的改善及對於基準的提升，這個部分也非常謝謝立法院，很多委員其實都很支持，對這件事情上面有一些協助跟提醒，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝，我們期待透過大家的努力，可以共同克服關稅所帶來的衝擊。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝次長，講得很詳細。","接續請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e526da813a930224d7aab39e7ea9331c7ec2be5dfb0591b1bf9acd615108665c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:05:09 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今天是副秘書長還有法務部 今天是次長委員好"},{"start":20.342,"end":43.834,"text":"副秘書長跟次長我們今天討論刑事訴訟法其中主要一個原因就是呢有一些潛逃不管是棄保潛逃或者在入獄前的潛逃好但是呢我們之前有一些這些重大的案件比如說中文誌啊或者是之前的諸國龍我們都在這裡有質詢而且都說會"},{"start":45.549,"end":59.07,"text":"有一些精進改善的措施對不對這個事情不是今天才發生是吧有沒有精進改善有沒有請問一下來副秘書長司法院部分有沒有精進改善"},{"start":60.71,"end":74.004,"text":"報告委員 這個部分 司法院確實做了很多檢討雖然說我的問題就是有關於這些潛逃的 或者是交保潛逃法院的部分 院方有做精進改善 對不對"},{"start":76.026,"end":98.464,"text":"來 法務部有沒有做精進改善官員報告 上次體育院案發生之後呢法治面基本上修法比較緩慢啦在實務上我們已經發函好幾次函給我們所屬的檢察機關未來就這個強制處分的實施我們要特別的修法院所以我的意思就是說在我們立法院還有社會高度重視"},{"start":99.685,"end":124.064,"text":"我想當然而司法院跟法務部應該不會再繼續的怠惰下去嘛怎麼樣 剩下來就怎麼樣經濟改善好 可是啊就在前兩天發生的是在新竹的孽童案知道嗎 知道這個案子嗎知道這個案子齁"},{"start":125.379,"end":154.468,"text":"所以啊我說沒有最扯只有更扯在新竹發生的虐童案這個他棄保潛逃300萬交保棄保潛逃然後發生之後看到我們的檢方跟我們的地院大家互推皮球責任都不在我院方說我這個讓他交保"},{"start":155.396,"end":174.666,"text":"我已經有媒體報導啦我有做成筆錄啦你們都應該知道因為有媒體報導也做成筆錄那檢方說沒有啊你法院開庭竟然沒有通知檢察官"},{"start":176.075,"end":200.311,"text":"竟然沒有通知檢察官到庭也沒有讓檢察官來表達意見啊進行裁定 這個虐童的嫌犯葉展浩就以三百萬元交保還附加限制住居 還要跟派出所報到所以檢方說的振振有詞院方說的理直氣壯"},{"start":202.444,"end":208.777,"text":"責任都不在 自己可是人咧?人咧?跑掉了所以我就不懂了"},{"start":213.103,"end":237.521,"text":"我們在立法院開了那麼多次的專案報告有這麼多的委員在質詢有這麼多的委員在關心包含本席在內都說會精進改善結果這個案子扯不扯它無關中大經濟犯罪它無關政治性的它就是一個一般老百姓非常關心的一個虐童案人跑掉了"},{"start":242.694,"end":257.766,"text":"然後竟然都說責任不在自己好 你們都是客是檢方和這個法院的長官好 請問一下 我先請先請我們院方來說好了 司法院這個責任在誰你們不要告訴我沒有去了解這個案情喔"},{"start":259.224,"end":261.386,"text":"這個法官有沒有問題他沒有通知檢察官到庭然後只是以說已經有媒體報導了"},{"start":284.648,"end":311.926,"text":"委員可不可以容我說明一下這個那個案件他是一個我們所稱的疑審案件就是說檢察官他終結了他的偵查程序之後他決定要起訴然後把這個羈押的被告送到法院那法院他自己職權決定說要不要羈押這個被告那這個程序所謂的疑審程序他跟偵查中申請羈押不一樣的是法律沒有規定他一定要通知這個官員"},{"start":312.987,"end":341.946,"text":"法官沒有錯不是你的意思是法官沒有錯我要跟那個委員講的是說他有他的那個成因就是說法律他因為檢察官其實他自己也知道他這時候人人今天要開庭就是說決定這個人要不要羈押那所以我就問你嘛我現在就問你你說法官有沒有錯嘛在這個案件上法官有沒有錯嘛整個制度性的就是說這個部分制度錯人沒有錯我們就是說可能就是說每個法院所以你講不出法官有錯"},{"start":342.847,"end":353.019,"text":"他們不夠那個嚴謹所以我們現在也整個把整套那個程序SOP好 所以法官沒有疏失沒有疏失 有沒有疏失嘛"},{"start":354.673,"end":377.6,"text":"委員那個分成兩層一個就是說他核心的他怎麼做決定的這個判斷我給你很多時間說明我也要同樣給我們法務部說明來請問一下法務部次長這個事件檢察官有沒有問題在檢察官他是羈押中送法院的所以在這被告送到法院之後就由法院來決定這個被告是否繼續羈押"},{"start":378.8,"end":403.674,"text":"就訴訟制度上就法官就檢察官來講他這樣當然就法院有所決定之後他來做救濟但這個案檢察官他沒有被通知要到場立庭那事後他也沒有收到這個不押沒有繼續接押的裁定所以法律上他是這個沒有錯不是有沒有錯法律上他不知道清楚地檢署說因為沒有收到裁定書他沒有辦法提起抗告"},{"start":405.049,"end":428.629,"text":"他說而且都沒有通知他們到庭所以請問一下檢察官有沒有錯那原則上法這個裁定對外宣示他也可能對外生效但是你必須要送達檢察官來知道你裁定的理由才能夠提起槓桿所以以你對你作為檢察官的長官你認為檢察官沒有錯我們檢察官他要對個案就計他基本上要有裁定看到了沒有"},{"start":431.109,"end":449.482,"text":"不只是新竹地檢署或者新竹這個地院兩邊推皮球如果我從司法院到這個法務部法務部沒有辦法說出檢察官有錯司法院也說法官沒有錯按照制度就是這樣走"},{"start":450.939,"end":479.615,"text":"那到底錯的是誰?錯的是誰呢?倒霉的是被虐待的兒童嗎?倒霉的是家長?倒霉的是受害人嗎?這個案子到底出現什麼樣的問題?我剛剛講說我們每次對一些重大激進犯罪我們非常生氣我們認為在裡面一定有貓膩這個我不曉得有沒有貓膩啦這個案子我不曉得有沒有貓膩但它活生生的就出現在我們的眼前"},{"start":481.496,"end":498.626,"text":"一個虐童案 三百萬交保 它就跑掉了所以來 再來剩一些時間 你們要怎麼樣怎麼 我在說你們一定有精進的方式啊 我們也想當然爾啊想當然爾你們會有精進 然後現在又告訴我制度出錯了"},{"start":500.956,"end":518.432,"text":"來先請法務部你們要怎麼 像這個案子該怎麼辦跟委員報告 我剛也跟委員報告了就是說這幾個重大案件脫逃之後我們要求警察官在施行公訴的過程當中他對強制處分 對法官強制處分的行使我們要強力的進行他算不算重大案件 這個新竹的劣童案"},{"start":519.052,"end":535.757,"text":"其實不管重不重大啦 假官在實行公訴的時候對法官強制處分權的行使其實我們進行公訴代表人的責任去督促法院適當的行使他的強制處分權我們發函要求訴處假官必須要這麼做好 來 司法院 這個案子"},{"start":536.912,"end":564.15,"text":"你們要怎麼精進那個過往有關於一審程序我們是尊重檢察官他要不要到那現在我們就是有通令就是說請那個各法院就是這種程序一定還是要正式那個通知那個檢察官所以一定要通知檢察官到庭嘛不要有機會再大家互踢皮球是吧好現在我要求法部跟司法院針對這個新竹市的虐童案的細胞潛逃提出報告給我們"},{"start":565.971,"end":584.657,"text":"司法法治委員會然後你們該不該做出懲處也提出來沒有道理啊沒有道理大家都說沒有錯然後就出現這樣的一個七寶潛逃讓我們社會大眾無法接受如果今天一個虐童案可以如此"},{"start":587.328,"end":605.481,"text":"重大經濟犯罪你逃掉了連虐童案你都讓他逃掉了然後都告訴我們我們通通沒有錯老師說我認為這是檢驗雙方的怠惰不把這個案子當回事嘛今天如果是你的孩子被虐待呢你會這樣對待嗎我認為就是兩方都有怠惰不要推給制度制度是死的人是活的"},{"start":615.393,"end":639.298,"text":"所以在這邊要求 這個主席我要求我們的司法院跟法務部 針對這個案子提出報告 還有提出懲處的報告這事情不能不了了之最後我們是懲罰制度嗎懲罰一個冷冰冰的這些文字嗎請 對我們 請 多久可以提出來那再麻煩法務部司法院多一招 多久可以提出來"},{"start":639.778,"end":651.75,"text":"依照那個委員的要求提出相關的報告跟懲處那請問要多久兩週內可以嗎一個月一個月啊那麼久啊兩週可以嗎"},{"start":654.697,"end":669.602,"text":"因為不可能是法務部直接下來調查我們要透過台高檢疫調查還有一個行政流程是不是一個月一個月好我要具體的不要最後又給我看到通通推給制度好不好好謝謝再麻煩一個月內能提出好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時5分）謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長、法務部次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長和次長，我們今天要討論刑事訴訟法，其中一個主要原因就是有一些潛逃案件，不管是棄保潛逃或者在入獄前潛逃，之前有一些重大案件，比如鍾文智，或者是之前的朱國榮，我們都在這裡有質詢過，而且你們都說會有一些精進改善的措施，對不對？這個事情不是今天才發生，是吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有精進改善？請問副秘書長，司法院的部分有沒有精進改善？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這個部分司法院確實做了很多檢討，雖然……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的問題是有關於這些潛逃或者是交保潛逃的案件，在法院的部分，院方有做精進改善，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部有沒有做精進改善？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這幾個個案發生之後，基本上，法制面的修法會比較緩慢，但是實務上，我們已經發了好幾次函給我們所屬的檢察機關，未來強制處分的實施，我們要特別督促法院去做強制處分。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我的意思是，在立法院還有社會高度重視之下，想當然爾，司法院和法務部應該不會再繼續怠惰下去，剩下就是怎麼樣精進改善。可是就在前兩天發生的事，新竹的虐童案，你們知道這個案子嗎？你們知道這個案子，所以我說沒有最扯、只有更扯，在新竹發生的虐童案，他300萬交保可是棄保潛逃，在事情發生之後，我們看到檢方和地院大家互踢皮球，責任都不在我，院方說我讓他交保，已經有媒體報導了，我有作成筆錄，你們都應該知道，因為有媒體報導，也作成筆錄。檢方說沒有，法院開庭竟然沒有通知檢察官到庭，也沒有讓檢察官表達意見，逕行裁定這個虐童嫌犯葉展皓以300萬元交保，附加限制住居，還要跟派出所報到，檢方說得振振有辭，院方說得理直氣壯，責任都不在自己，可是人嘞？人跑掉了！所以我就不懂了，我們在立法院開了那麼多次專案報告，有這麼多的委員在質詢，有這麼多的委員在關心，包含本席在內，你們都說會精進改善，結果這個案子扯不扯？它無關重大經濟犯罪、無關政治性的，它就是一個一般老百姓非常關心的虐童案，現在人跑掉了，你們竟然都說責任不在自己。你們各是檢方和法院的長官，我先請院方來說好了，請問司法院，這個責任在誰？你們不要告訴我沒有去瞭解這個案情喔！"],["王副秘書長梅英：向委員說明，法院在審理當中發生虐童案的被告棄保潛逃，司法院真的是非常遺憾，而且責無旁貸，我們自己確實應該要深自檢討。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個法官有沒有問題？他沒有通知檢察官到庭，只是以已經有媒體報導了為理由。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，可不可以容我說明一下？"],["王委員鴻薇：說。"],["王副秘書長梅英：那個案件是一個我們所稱的移審案件，就是檢察官終結他的偵查程序之後，他決定要起訴，然後把這個羈押的被告送到法院，法院依職權決定要不要羈押這一個被告。所謂的移審程序，跟偵查中聲請羈押不一樣的是，法律沒有規定他一定要通知檢察官。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以法官沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你的意思是法官沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我要跟委員講的是，它有它的成因，因為檢察官其實自己也知道今天要開庭決定這個人要不要羈押，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在就問你，你就說法官有沒有錯、在這個案件上法官有沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：整個制度性的部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以是制度錯，人沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：在每個法院之間，大家的作法……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你講不出法官有沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：他們不夠嚴謹，所以我們現在也把整套程序的SOP重新做了……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以法官沒有疏失？有沒有疏失？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，這分成兩層，一個就是核心的，他怎麼做決定的這個判斷……"],["王委員鴻薇：我給你很多時間說明了，我也要同樣給法務部說明，請問法務部次長，這個事件檢察官有沒有問題？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官是在羈押中送法院的，所以在這個被告送到法院之後，就由法院來決定這個被告是否繼續羈押，在訴訟制度上，就檢察官來講，他當然是在法院有所決定之後來做救濟，但這個個案的檢察官沒有被通知要到場蒞庭，事後也沒有收到沒有繼續羈押的裁定，所以法律上他是……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：不是有沒有錯，法律上他不知道裁定的理由。"],["王委員鴻薇：新竹地檢署說因為沒有收到裁定書，他沒有辦法提起抗告，他說而且都沒有通知他們到庭，所以請問一下檢察官有沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：原則上把裁定對外宣示，它也可能對外生效，但是你必須要送達，檢察官才知道你裁定的理由，才能夠提起抗告。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以，你作為檢察官的長官，你認為檢察官沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：我們檢察官他要對個案救濟，他基本上要有裁定……"],["王委員鴻薇：好了，看到了沒有、看到了沒有？不只是新竹地檢署或者新竹地院，兩邊踢皮球，如果我從司法院問到法務部，法務部沒有辦法說出檢察官有錯，司法院也說法官沒有錯，按照制度就是這樣走，那到底錯的是誰呢？倒楣的是被虐待的兒童嗎？倒楣的是家長、倒楣的是受害人嗎？這個案子到底出現什麼樣的問題？我剛剛講說我們每次對一些重大經濟犯罪，我們非常生氣，我們認為這裡面一定有貓膩，這個我不曉得有沒有貓膩啦！這個案子我不曉得有沒有貓膩，但它活生生地就出現在我們的眼前，一個虐童案300萬交保，他就跑掉了。再來剩一些時間，你們要怎麼樣？你們一定有精進的方式，我們也想當然爾啊！想當然爾你們會有精進，然後現在又告訴我制度出錯了，先請法務部，所以像這個案子該怎麼辦？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛也跟委員報告了，就是說這幾個重大案件脫逃之後，我們也要求檢察官在實行公訴的過程當中，他對法官強制處分的行使，我們要強力地……"],["王委員鴻薇：它算不算重大案件？這個新竹的虐童案。"],["黃次長謀信：其實不管重不重大，檢察官在實行公訴的時候，對法官強制處分權的行使，其實我們盡公訴代表人的責任去督促法院適當地行使它的強制處分權，我們已經發文、發函要求所屬檢察官必須要這麼做。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，來，司法院，這個案子你們要怎麼精進？"],["王副秘書長梅英：過往有關於移審程序，我們是尊重檢察官他要不要到，現在我們就是有通令，就是說請各法院，就是這種程序一定還是要正式通知檢察官。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以一定要通知檢察官到庭嘛！不要有機會再大家互踢皮球，是吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，現在我要求法務部跟司法院針對新竹市的虐童案的棄保潛逃提出報告給我們司法及法制委員會，然後你們該不該做出懲處也提出來，沒有道理啊！沒有道理大家都說沒有錯，然後就出現這樣的一個棄保潛逃，讓我們社會大眾無法接受，如果今天一個虐童案可以如此，重大經濟犯罪的被告逃掉了，連虐童案你都讓他逃掉了，然後都告訴我們：我們統統沒有錯。老實說我認為這是檢院雙方的怠惰，不把這個案子當回事嘛！今天如果是你的孩子被虐待，你會這樣對待嗎？我認為就是兩方都有怠惰，不要推給制度，制度是死的，人是活的。所以在這邊要求，主席，我要求司法院跟法務部針對這個案子提出報告，還有提出懲處的報告，這個事情不能不了了之，最後我們是懲罰制度嗎？懲罰這些冷冰冰的文字嗎？多久可以提出來？"],["主席：再麻煩法務部、司法院能夠……"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起，多久可以提出來？"],["主席：依照委員的要求提出相關的報告跟懲處，請問要多久才能夠提供？"],["王委員鴻薇：兩週內可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：1個月。"],["王委員鴻薇：1個月啊？那麼久啊！兩週可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：因為不可能是法務部直接下來調查，我們要透過臺高檢去調查，還有一個行政流程，是不是1個月？"],["王委員鴻薇：1個月，好，我要具體的，不要最後又給我看到統統推給制度，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：再麻煩1個月內能提出，謝謝。下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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這就是大家很關心能源的穩定的供給以及就是非碳家園 所以才會對核能抱有那麼大的期望想問一下主委 因為主委本身也是核能專家你是這方面的博士嘛 到底對於核能的安全的部分你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":91.132,"end":94.355,"text":"報告委員河安會監管下的核電廠"},{"start":96.348,"end":121.644,"text":"是必須合乎安全要求的所以是安全的嘛 核能是安全的一定是安全的 核能是安全的這是核安會的職責所以核能是安全的嘛 是嗎要讓安全一旦核安會認為運轉中核電廠有安全疑慮核安會一定會要求核電廠停機檢查這點是毫無模糊的餘地謝謝主委 那主委的意思是說"},{"start":123.025,"end":139.825,"text":"我現在聽你的講法啦感覺核能是安全的啦因為如果核能有安全疑慮你就會要求他停機檢查嘛現在都沒有要求他停機檢查嘛所以目前來講感覺上您是覺得核能是安全那接下來我來問一下核廢喔因為今天"},{"start":141.767,"end":161.6,"text":"賴總統講說對於先進的核能技術保持核能開放態度這應該指的是現在大家在看看是不是能夠接受那個SMR就是小型模組化的反應毒是這個意思嗎小型模組化它有很多不同的設計有些設計它核廢料會比"},{"start":166.853,"end":185.578,"text":"傳統核電廠多一些有些會差不多有些會少很多不同的設計有不同的所以我們未來可能會接受的是哪一種是會核廢料會多很多的還是會少很多的還是差不多的這還需要評估因為評估要引進哪一種"},{"start":187.777,"end":198.769,"text":"是Module Reactor 是很複雜的過程因為你剛剛有提到說SMR有的它會造成更多的核廢料"},{"start":200.424,"end":219.746,"text":"那如果以這個大家對於核廢料的恐懼來講的話這種會造成比較多的核廢料就不太可能引進嘛引進的應該是會少很多的嘛理論上是這樣嘛否則不可能說大家在這邊一直罵核廢料結果我們政府說我們要採用我們要引進SM嘛結果我們引進一個會造成更多核廢料的來這不太合理嘛"},{"start":220.367,"end":243.479,"text":"所以我聽起來感覺上應該是會這個朝向引進比較少核廢料的但無論如何它就是有核廢料所以我們核廢料的問題還是要解決甚至於連我們現在核二核三要除液的過程當中也都會衍生核廢料所以我接下來我就想要問一下主委我們現在核廢料的處理到底是怎麼樣我是有看到一個新聞說"},{"start":245.662,"end":270.114,"text":"現在經濟部當然這是經濟部的事情經濟部說現在推動高階核廢料選址的一個辦公室已經成立了然後也找了這個負責人負責人是一個教授他的工作就是要跟社會做溝通感覺上好像這個已經選好了所以要開始要跟社會溝通了那我們來看一下核廢料的進程等一下請主委來說明一下這個是之前"},{"start":271.414,"end":296.192,"text":"核安會所訂出來核廢料處理的進程我們今年是2025年嘛所以我們是應該是還在第二階段第二階段就是厚紙長紙的評選與核定階段然後我們到2028年必須要完成厚紙選紙的調查跟評估然後還有要建立厚紙長紙的功能安全評估技術那請問一下因為剩3年2028年就要完成那個厚紙長紙"},{"start":297.693,"end":313.43,"text":"的這個調查跟評估那主委我們現在有哪一些場址是作為那個最終處置場核廢的最終處置場還沒有做最後決定還沒有做最後決定因為已經要社會溝通了嘛所以現在是選哪幾個地方準備要跟社會溝通"},{"start":315.919,"end":344.122,"text":"這點請組長回答報告委員是那個有關這個高放處置計畫部分那目前技術的研發部分我們其實行會都要求台電公司要跟上國際腳步關於選址的部分目前台電公司是沒有進度所以經濟部他設置這個專案辦公室那這專案辦公室的工作除了嚴定高放處置計畫的選址法案以外他也要"},{"start":344.562,"end":363.673,"text":"兼做高低放最終處置選址作業跟必要地址調查以及社會溝通這是他整個辦公室的一個所以你的意思是說到目前為止還沒有還沒有候選的場址還沒有一個都沒有還沒有一個都沒有還沒有 對那他現在成立的這個辦公室"},{"start":364.699,"end":389.271,"text":"負責人是一個他的專長是在做社會溝通但你連那個前面的長職都沒有你要怎麼讓他去做社會溝通他們向經濟部向透過成立那個原定了選址條例的法案然後依序來做選址的工作那你這樣有信心2028年可以達到你們原本規劃的進程嗎"},{"start":392.974,"end":418.274,"text":"呃我這個這個進程恐怕到時候台電公司是難以達成難以達成那會延後多久呃這個要看呃就是整個整個呃那個法案齁通過後他設定的他會在這裡面都沒有角色嗎呃我們其實是每年都會來進行呃台電公司組織計畫的一個呃對因為那個我為什麼會在這邊問因為我們剛剛這樣"},{"start":419.835,"end":441.38,"text":"一論下來嘛 第一個就算我們要引進SMR它也是會有核廢料第二個我們現有的核能機組就算除以也會有核廢料所以核廢料就是要處理現在不是說好像停核二核三停機之後就已經廢了家園就不用處理核廢料 不是就是要處理 這個事情就是要處理那所以我們當然就是要按照原本規劃的進程去走嘛"},{"start":442.04,"end":459.282,"text":"那我看到經濟部也有動作了嘛所以才來問結果聽你們的說法是說即便是成立這個辦公室感覺好像還是跟我們原本規劃的進度落差很大那大家就慢慢拖就好了啊那如果慢慢拖的情況之下那核廢的問題一直沒有辦法給社會大眾一個交代啊"},{"start":459.69,"end":483.797,"text":"那賴總統講的要處理核廢社會有共識這就是空話啦那大家還是會疑慮說能源到底能不能穩定地供給嘛這都是環環相扣的嘛所以我覺得這個核廢的部分不知道主委因為您是這方面專家啦齁您加入核安會之後應該是可以給我們核廢的處理帶來一個專業的一股力量啦能不能push台電或者是核安會可以趕快處理"},{"start":491.284,"end":507.715,"text":"科技一直在進步,處理高階核廢料技術也一直在進步,而且將來很有可能把高階核廢料轉換為低階核廢料,一旦目的達到的話,核廢料的處理就會簡單得多。"},{"start":511.179,"end":523.684,"text":"我最後一分鐘我再問一個問題因為3月6號那時候屏東核三廠發生火災那天是11月18號的時候發現有明火嗎11月23號的時候那時候還通報廠內的消防員來處理那核安會是11點35分才接貨通報然後到了12點36分的時候才上網公告"},{"start":534.528,"end":560.123,"text":"那後來因為這個事情有冒出煙啦所以當時屏東有些民意代表也受不了直接就沖河山場了就到底發生什麼事情那環環會我不知道說在這個事情後來後來這個檢討裡面呢有一點我們很快看一下他說以後無論火勢大小都要先通報再滅火那這個是不是很怪啊你不滅火那你為什麼要先通報再滅火"},{"start":563.054,"end":576.487,"text":"好 跟委員說明喔 針對這一...而且第二個就是說你們通報的時間會不會太慢了你看11點18分那時候火就出來了那大家都很害怕然後一直到12點36分才上網公告讓社會大眾知道發生什麼事情"},{"start":577.853,"end":591.993,"text":"會不會太慢了B的那個當地的證明代表都衝到河山場去了然後第三個問題啦就是說其實我們後來看你們事後的報告覺得河山場即便發生火災其實還是相對來說算安全的嘛"},{"start":592.734,"end":615.195,"text":"對不對 它有一些防火措施應該也是算安全的對不對 請簡單說明一下跟委員說明喔 那在現場發生火災的時候當然第一線工作人員會先撲滅火災 然後進行後續的通報那核安會的視察同仁 接獲訊息的時候要現場了解它的狀況 也要了解機組的狀況確認說火災沒有對兩部機組的運作安全"},{"start":618.658,"end":647.737,"text":"那核安會整理所有資訊之後在12點36分然後會上最新消息然後提供給民眾知的一些訊息那針對委員剛才所提到的台電公司所提出來先通報再滅火這部分事實上核安會在檢視台電公司的一些作為我們也有發現到那後續我們會請台電公司去請一些消防單位來確認整個的程序然後建立適當的程序以上說明好 謝謝"},{"start":650.087,"end":650.57,"text":"好,謝謝葉雲芝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時4分）主席，麻煩請主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：總統賴清德前兩天在接見環保團體的時候，提到對未來新的、先進的核能技術保持開放的態度，不過他有強調任何政策變更，都必須滿足核安、核廢、社會共識三個前提，這三個前提實際上又以前面兩個最為重要，為什麼？因為第三個前提「社會共識」是根據到底有沒有核安以及核廢料能不能處理來決定的，所以核安會的責任很重大，第一個要跟社會大眾確保核能是安全的，第二個也要想辦法處理核廢。","我們也可以發現最近有非常多過去反對核能的一些社會先進都開始轉變了，就像現在賴總統頗為器重的童子賢，他也不斷強調未來能源組合的黃金比例應該是三成綠能、三成核電和四成火力發電，這是為什麼呢？就因為大家很關心能源的穩定供給以及非碳家園，所以才會對核能抱有這麼大的期望。想問一下主委，因為主委本身也是核能專家，你是這方面的博士，對於核能安全的部分，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員明真：報告委員，核安會監管下的核電廠是必須合乎安全要求的。"],["葉委員元之：所以是安全的嘛！核能現在是安全的？"],["陳主任委員明真：必須是安全的。"],["葉委員元之：一定是安全的，核能是安全的？"],["陳主任委員明真：這是核安會的職責。"],["葉委員元之：所以核能是安全的，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：要讓它安全，一旦核安會認為運轉中的核電廠有安全疑慮，核安會一定會要求核電廠停機檢查，這點毫無模糊的餘地。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝主委。我現在聽你的講法，感覺核能是安全的，因為如果核能有安全疑慮，你就會要求它停機檢查，現在都沒有要求它停機檢查，所以目前來講，感覺上您覺得核能是安全的。","接下來我來問一下核廢，因為賴總統說對於先進的核能技術保持開放態度，這指的應該是現在大家在看是不是能夠接受SMR（小型模組化反應爐），是這個意思嗎？是SMR嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：小型模組化有很多不同的設計，有些設計的核廢料會比傳統核電廠多一些，有些會差不多，有些會少很多，不同的設計有不同……"],["葉委員元之：所以我們未來可能會接受的是哪一種？是核廢料會多很多的？還是會少很多的？還是差不多的？"],["陳主任委員明真：這還需要評估，因為評估要引進哪一種Small Modular Reactor是很複雜的過程，不是單一因素能決定的。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝主委。你剛剛提到有的SMR會造成更多核廢料，如果以大家對於核廢料的恐懼來講的話，這種會造成比較多核廢料就不太可能引進，引進的應該是會少很多的，理論上是這樣，不可能大家在這邊一直罵核廢料，結果我們政府引進一個會造成更多核廢料的SMR，這個不太合理，所以我聽起來感覺上應該是會朝向引進比較少核廢料的。但無論如何，它就是有核廢料，所以核廢料的問題還是要解決，甚至於在目前核二、核三要除役的過程當中，也都會衍生核廢料，所以接下來我想要問一下主委，我們現在核廢料的處理到底是怎麼樣？我有看到一則新聞，當然這是經濟部的事情，經濟部說現在推動高階核廢料選址的辦公室已經成立了，然後也找了負責人，負責人是一個教授，他的工作就是要跟社會溝通，感覺上好像已經選好了，所以要開始跟社會溝通了。","我們來看一下核廢料的進程，等一下請主委來說明一下。這是之前核安會所訂出來的核廢料處理進程，今年是2025年，所以我們應該還在第二階段，第二階段就是候選場址的評選與核定階段，然後我們到2028年必須完成候選場址的調查及評估，另外還要建立候選場址的功能安全評估技術。目前只剩3年，因為2028年就要完成候選場址的調查及評估，請問主委，現在有哪一些場址可以作為核廢的最終處置場？"],["陳主任委員明真：還沒有做最後決定。"],["葉委員元之：因為已經要社會溝通了嘛，所以現在是選了哪幾個地方準備要跟社會溝通？"],["陳主任委員明真：這一點請陳組長來回答。"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，有關高放處置計畫技術研發的部分，其實核安會都要求台電公司要跟上國際腳步。關於選址的部分，目前台電公司沒有進度，所以經濟部設置了專案辦公室，這個專案辦公室的工作除了研訂高放處置計畫的選址法案以外，也要兼做高低放最終處置選址作業跟必要地質調查以及社會溝通，這是這個辦公室設置的目的。"],["葉委員元之：你的意思是說到目前為止還沒有候選的場址？"],["陳組長文泉：還沒有。"],["葉委員元之：一個都沒有？"],["陳組長文泉：對，還沒有。"],["葉委員元之：那它現在成立了辦公室，負責人是一個教授，他的專長是在做社會溝通，但連前面的場址都沒有，你要怎麼讓他去做社會溝通？"],["陳組長文泉：經濟部希望研訂選址條例的法案，然後依序來做選址的工作。"],["葉委員元之：這樣有信心2028年可以達到你們原本規劃的進程嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：這個進程恐怕到時候台電公司是難以達成。"],["葉委員元之：那會延後多久？"],["陳組長文泉：這個要看整個法案通過後所設定的排程。"],["葉委員元之：核安會在這裡面都沒有角色嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：我們其實每年都會進行台電公司組織計畫的觀察……"],["葉委員元之：我為什麼會在這邊問？因為我們剛剛這樣一路問下來，第一個，就算我們要引進SMR，它也是會有核廢料；第二個，我們現有的核能機組，就算除役也會有核廢料。所以核廢料就是要處理，現在不是核二、核三停役、停機之後就已經是非核家園，就不用處理核廢料，不是！這個事情就是要處理！當然我們就是要按照原本規劃的進程去走，我看到經濟部也有動作了，所以才提問，結果聽你們的說法是，即便成立了這個辦公室，感覺上好像還是跟我們原本規劃的進度落差很大，那大家慢慢拖就好了啊！在慢慢拖的情況之下，核廢的問題一直沒有辦法給社會大眾一個交代，賴總統說要處理核廢、社會有共識，就都是空話了，大家還是會有疑慮，就是能源到底能不能穩定的供給，這都是環環相扣的。","所以核廢的部分，主委是這方面的專家，在您加入核安會之後，應該可以給我們核廢的處理帶來一股專業的力量，所以能不能push台電或者是核安會趕快來做處理？對此，主委有沒有什麼想法？"],["陳主任委員明真：因為科技一直在進步，處理高階核廢料的技術也一直在進步，而且將來很有可能把高階核廢料轉換為低階核廢料，一旦那個目的達到的話，那核廢料的處理就會簡單得多。"],["葉委員元之：最後1分鐘，我再問一個問題，3月6號屏東核三廠發生火災，那天是11點18分發現有明火；11點23分才通報廠內的消防員來處理；核安會是11點35分才接獲通報，然後到了12點36分的時候才上網公告。後來是因為這個事件有冒出煙了，所以當時屏東有些民意代表也受不了了，直接就衝到核三廠，想知道到底發生了什麼事情。在這個事情之後，核安會的檢討裡面有一點我們很快來看一下，就是以後無論火勢大小都要先通報再滅火，這個是不是很怪？你不滅火嗎？為什麼要先通報再滅火？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，針對……"],["葉委員元之：第二個，你們通報的時間會不會太慢了？11點18分那時候火就出來了，大家都很害怕，然後一直到12點36分才上網公告，讓社會大眾知道發生什麼事情，這會不會太慢了？甚至逼得當地的鎮民代表都衝到核三廠去了！","第三個問題，後來看了你們事後的報告，我們覺得核三廠即便發生火災，因為它有一些防火措施等，其實相對來說應該還算安全的，對不對？請簡單說明一下。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，現場發生火災的時候，當然第一線工作人員會先撲滅火災，然後進行後續的通報，核安會的視察同仁接獲訊息的時候，要現場了解它的狀況，也要了解機組的狀況，包括確認火災沒有對兩部機組的運作安全有影響，而核安會整理所有資訊之後，在12點36分會上最新消息，提供民眾知的訊息。","針對委員剛才提到台電公司所提先通報再滅火這部分，事實上核安會在檢視台電公司的作為後，我們也有發現到，後續我們會請台電公司去請消防單位來確認整個程序，然後建立適當的程序，以上說明，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，主委請回。","我們接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e516e0e620613cbd759742596ee20a55b8c2be5dfb0591b1bf263c0903a4778e8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"09:54:14 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主席我請一下食藥署江署長署長好 署長不好意思 因為問你比較快因為"},{"start":27.844,"end":54.157,"text":"台美的貿易談判大概美豬美牛算是國人很重視的一項談判美國的貿易代表署向國會提出了2025年對外貿易障礙的評估報告那在報告中明確的指出台灣對於美豬美牛進口的限制規範是不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":55.177,"end":84.358,"text":"那按照世界貿易組織WTO認為什麼叫做不必要的貿易障礙呢就是指有一個國家採取採取進口限制措施未能證明它的必要性跟合理性對於外國商品造成不公平不科學或者是過度的限制這個叫做不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":85.322,"end":98.484,"text":"那用這個觀點來看呢我國目前對於美豬美牛的限制規範在食藥署的專業來看是不是屬於不必要的貿易障礙"},{"start":101.894,"end":120.139,"text":"首先謝謝委員非常精準的提問有關於美國進口台灣的續產品裡面的美豬跟美牛的部分那過去多年來我們知道在牛的開放的時間其實已經超過10年了豬的開放其實在110年的1月1號也開放了"},{"start":124.7,"end":154,"text":"開放之前其實有非常非常深刻的社會的溝通那談到這個貿易的部分呢其實在食品安全裡面我們強調的叫做Risk Analysis風險的分析風險分析其實包含了三大塊第一大塊叫做風險溝通因為你在乎我在乎委員在乎以及全體的現場的都很在乎所以風險溝通這個議題呢是涵蓋了在做科學的評估"},{"start":154.8,"end":169.556,"text":"所以第一項因為大家都覺得食品安全這件事情是最重要的在食安優先的前提之下我們的風險溝通其實一直都是啟動啟動之後因為溝通大家要溝通能夠對話就像我現在講的"},{"start":173.085,"end":193.946,"text":"講國語這樣會通 講台語應該也普通也會通所以語言上面要在同一個層次上面去談所以層次上談就是所謂的Risk Analysis裡面的Risk Assessment風險評估評估要用四大面向來做評估因為我們必須要面對這件事情說我們現在是講的叫做當初的瘦肉精來克多巴胺這個議題"},{"start":195.527,"end":223.706,"text":"所以這個評估這之後呢就會牽涉到第二個就是他的所謂的劑量效應到底是怎麼樣的表現然後就是要做後面是風險暴露最後呢才能夠去把他的風險量化出來我之前常常去演講喔講萊克多巴胺 水狗 講到轉波結果坐在第一排的阿嬤那個粉絲來一直看就點頭微笑阿嬤你怎麼我講說大家在走秘密船你怎麼不走"},{"start":226.307,"end":252.195,"text":"意思就是說它其實沒有暴露就沒有風險所以在這種科學的評估的基礎之下呢才能夠去做對談對談之後呢我們把這個標準其實訂出來之後訂出來之後呢回饋給所有的全國的民眾跟回饋給我們的風險管理的機關那目前呢其實就是在衛福部部長領導之下的食藥署來做這件事情所以會訂出這樣子的標準之後"},{"start":253.275,"end":282.297,"text":"會有國際的調和國際的調和剛才部長也特別提到說我們會不會成為一個一個障礙的因為國人的飲食習慣其實有非常非常的特殊性這個特殊性裡面我們在未來一定會做非常嚴正的表示那因為國外沒有這樣子的特殊的飲食習慣所以我們這邊就不特別透露出來我們的想法因為那個想法其實是很獨特的有融為有一點點保留那剛才提到的"},{"start":283.522,"end":308.704,"text":"會不會是標示在美豬美牛的部分因為我們對於特別豬肉的部分不管是哪一國進來的或者是國內的或者國外的我們其實是一體適用的因為這樣子一體適用我們查查機關我們的監督的行政機關在做的時候才有依據法院的依據那我們其實持續在做那曾經有遇到過就是"},{"start":309.758,"end":321.74,"text":"沒有適當的標示的我們也做了裁處因為我們是依法行政行政機關我們能夠幫忙能夠做的大概是這樣子的前提之下來做一些我們對於順便安全的瞭解那"},{"start":323.018,"end":352.177,"text":"第二個部分我大概特別提到的是說溝通完之後 風險分析完之後那其實有很多很多調和剛才特別提到的我們會做事前的公告之後公告之後其實是讓吸取全民大家的意見之後再做最後的調和跟調整能夠取得最大的共識那事實上這個部分就是我們能夠去做的地方也謝謝楊委員的提案所以署長剛剛講的大概就是"},{"start":354,"end":363.196,"text":"風險評估科學依據溝通等等對不對還有一個就是平等性也就是說食藥署這邊的看法是"},{"start":366.141,"end":390.044,"text":"美國貿易代表署提出的就是台灣對美豬美牛進口的限制是構成不必要的貿易障礙這個部分稍微跟委員進一步說明一下因為我們針對這個標示全世界對於原產地的標示這件事情是非常非常的清楚"},{"start":390.714,"end":400.51,"text":"那並沒有特別的形成所謂的妨礙,是一舉四用的我看台灣也是不分國籍也都有標示嘛對不對那"},{"start":402.81,"end":424.104,"text":"我問一下就是美牛的部分因為美豬剛剛署長大概有談到說特定的部位因為有國情的關係所以不方便透露那我這個也就不問了我問一下美牛我們其實在從2021年"},{"start":429.808,"end":454.925,"text":"開始就對30個月齡以上的美牛解禁了可是美國對於我國針對部分美牛內臟產品實施施加繁瑣而且非基於科學根據這是他們的用語的邊境查驗程序食藥署這邊有什麼看法"},{"start":456.857,"end":483.036,"text":"首先回應委員特別提到的剛才講說珍貴美牛的部分所謂的全靈的牛的開放那開放這個東西是基於一些科學的分析出來的結果科學是怎麼分析的因為對於動物動物其實也會生病所以動物生病的時候要如何去醫治它有一個世界的組織叫做WAROrganization of Animal Health動物健康我們簡稱叫做WAR"},{"start":485.318,"end":506.718,"text":"這個WAR裡面呢其實針對全世界各個國家裡面的續產品它的風險其實有三個層級啦那層級包含就是完全可以忽略的第二個不確定的等等的這三個層級向下我們可以做深刻的由這個第三方國際重要的組織協助確立了"},{"start":510.06,"end":526.585,"text":"它在國際標準之下該國的某一個續產品是怎麼樣子讓全世界各國可以去面對面對這個議題我們其實是有深刻的去了解跟進一步的分析在這種前提之下我們才會在後續的"},{"start":527.245,"end":543.826,"text":"有機會去假如要進口之前一定要先去國外去了解它的廠這個廠事實上是在所謂的QSA Quality System系統的評估Assessment之後才能他們國內做完之後才可以作為"},{"start":544.827,"end":564.658,"text":"出口的一個依據所以在這種的國際標準之下其實我們有機會可以確立看到的世界的標準是什麼在做進一步我們在風險在管理的部分做一些調和所以我們在按照這樣子國際的基準之下做的一個評估其實對國人的食品安全的"},{"start":565.498,"end":581.251,"text":"把關的部分其實我們用最嚴謹的態度來面對這個非常艱困的一個對談的一個過程以上跟委員報告我也相信食藥署這邊在把關上就從源頭開始到邊境到市場的標示會"},{"start":585.254,"end":602.859,"text":"會站在國人健康的立場來做嚴格的把關那國際貿易談判是這樣子就是我們有東西要賣出去那人家有東西要賣進來那食藥署這邊大概就會變成最大的苦主因為討論度會變得很高那你們的壓力也大我"},{"start":608.3,"end":609.904,"text":"我很少佔用委員會的時間那我想我是不是給署長一些時間"},{"start":618.956,"end":642.969,"text":"你把你們目前會提供給談判代表的有關食藥署相關對台美貿易談判包括美豬及所有食藥署相關的事項你們基本的大原則方向"},{"start":644.872,"end":673.952,"text":"會提供給貿易代表也藉這個機會跟國人同胞做個說明好不好謝謝委員有機會讓我們可以做進一步的去闡述這個部分最重要的是因為題目其實是公開的是USTR美國的系統性的談判裡面的障礙裡面的報告裡面都有了所以針對的盤幹的部分這邊跟委員做進一步的說明因為談判之前其實是不露底牌"},{"start":674.812,"end":697.674,"text":"那因為不露底牌的至少我們的方向是就是食安優先所以就是講大方向對我們就是以食品安全優先以國際的標準那用科學的風險分析為基準之後國際的標準之後才能建置我們國內的市場稽查的整個機制會以這樣子的前提來去做我們推廣推出去我們要去談判的"},{"start":698.214,"end":722.428,"text":"那這件事情也是回應在先前蔡總統到現在賴總統裡面第一階段的食安五環裡面所謂的源頭管理到所謂的重建生產的管理到第三個要加強查驗第四個對黑心廠商之間的責任到最後的食品全民的監督那已經其實"},{"start":723.428,"end":749.715,"text":"去年不就已經變成upgrade變成叫做五環2.0這邊也有機會跟大家做一點說明我們其實最強調的是全民的監督跟源頭的管理特別是源頭管理的這件事情讓我們可以在中央地方可以共同的去集合然後讓產業鏈能夠結合起來更重要的事情對食品安全的教育其實我們重新從頭一起來把它建置的更完整我們要建置一個"},{"start":750.635,"end":766.433,"text":"可以當台灣人也可以當世界人甚至要當宇宙人共同為食安的標準是可以溝通的這溝通必須在科學的基礎之下國際的標準之下來進行後續第二個階段"},{"start":768.021,"end":784.122,"text":"所以這個食安的教育的部分我們會把這一塊非常非常深植到我們所有的全民的心中了解這一個很重要的基準的原則以上簡單的說明 謝謝謝謝署長 那我最後提醒一下就是不管"},{"start":785.423,"end":803.787,"text":"國際貿易 台美貿易談判的結果是怎麼樣就算都沒有改變我們查額的人力只要需要增加署裡面這邊還是必須要提出相關的預算補足人力好不好首先 我一點點補充不曉得 趙偉這邊趙偉還沒有站起來"},{"start":807.288,"end":832.985,"text":"那我們對於邊境的查查其實非常非常地感謝人事總署這邊給予的協助我們去北七查查在基隆關跟我們的港口以外到我們機場我們看到的是非常非常地窄人力上面目前是有72個查查的人力那因為這麼不好的空間人壓力又大"},{"start":833.846,"end":858.119,"text":"工作量又多非常非常感謝我們今年度有爭取到33個33位的稽查的人力能夠在我們的邊境做進一步的部署我相信國家給我們的支持給食藥署北區區管這邊的支持也成為我們能夠堅守食品安全更進一步能夠達到維護全民的食安這一項重要任務的我們一定是全力以赴謝謝"},{"start":859.439,"end":882.268,"text":"謝謝署長也謝謝所有在座的行政官員大家正在面臨一場非常非常艱困的貿易談判就是我們要把東西賣出去那我們東西賣不出去影響到國人的經濟那我們必須要買進相關的東西買進來的東西我剛剛聽"},{"start":886.15,"end":893.407,"text":"實要屬江署長的說明我對執政團隊是有信心的大家加油謝謝署長謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（9時54分）謝謝主席。主席，我請一下食藥署姜署長。署長好，署長，不好意思，因為問你比較快，臺美的貿易談判，大概美豬、美牛算是國人很重視的一項談判，美國的貿易代表署向國會提出2025年對外貿易障礙的評估報告，在報告中明確的指出，臺灣對於美豬、美牛進口的限制規範是不必要的貿易障礙，世界貿易組織WTO認為什麼叫做不必要的貿易障礙呢？就是指一個國家採取進口限制措施，未能證明它的必要性跟合理性，對於外國商品造成不公平、不科學或者是過度的限制，這個叫做不必要的貿易障礙。用這個觀點來看，我國目前對於美豬、美牛的限制規範，在食藥署的專業來看，是不是屬於不必要的貿易障礙？"],["姜署長至剛：首先謝謝委員非常精準的提問，有關於美國進口臺灣的畜產品裡面的美豬跟美牛的部分，過去多年來，我們知道牛的開放時間其實已經超過10年了，豬的開放，其實在110年的1月1號也開放，開放之前其實有非常非常深刻的社會溝通。談到貿易的部分，其實在食品安全裡面，我們強調的是risk analysis（風險的分析），風險分析其實包含了三大塊，第一大塊叫做風險溝通，因為你在乎、我在乎、委員在乎以及全體現場的人都很在乎，所以風險溝通這個議題是涵蓋了在做科學的評估，因為大家都覺得食品安全這件事情是最重要的，在食安優先的前提之下，我們的風險溝通其實一直都是啟動的，啟動之後，因為大家要溝通能夠對話，就像我現在講國語會通，說臺語應該也是會通，所以語言上面要在同一個層次上面去談，所以層次上談就是所謂risk analysis裡面的risk assessment（風險評估）。評估要由四大面向來做評估，因為我們必須要面對這件事情，我們現在講的是當初的瘦肉精、萊克多巴胺這個議題，所以這個評估之後就會牽涉到第二個，就是它所謂的劑量效應到底是怎麼樣的表現，然後後面是風險曝露，最後才能夠去把它的風險量化出來。","我之前常常去演講，講萊克多巴胺講得口沫橫飛，結果坐在第一排的粉絲阿嬤一直點頭微笑，我就問他說：「阿嬤，我講瘦肉精大家都嚇得要命，你怎麼都不怕？」他說他吃素，意思就是其實沒有曝露就沒有風險，所以在這種科學評估的基礎之下，才能夠去做對談，對談之後，我們把標準訂出來，訂出來之後回饋給所有全國的民眾，跟回饋給我們的風險管理機關，目前其實就是在衛福部部長領導之下的食藥署來做這件事情，所以訂出這樣子的標準之後，會有國際的調和，國際的調和剛才部長也特別提到我們會不會成為一個障礙，因為國人的飲食習慣其實有非常非常的特殊性，這個特殊性裡面我們在未來一定會做非常嚴正的表示，因為國外沒有這樣子的特殊飲食習慣，所以我們這邊就不特別透露出來我們的想法，因為那個想法其實是很獨特的，容我有一點點的保留。","剛才提到會不會是標示美豬、美牛的部分，因為我們對於特別是豬肉的部分，不管是哪一國進來的，或者是國內的或者國外的，我們其實是一體適用的，因為這樣子的一體適用，我們的查察機關、我們監督的行政機關在做的時候才有法源的依據，我們其實持續在做。曾經有遇到過沒有適當的標示，我們也做了裁處，因為我們是依法行政，行政機關能夠幫忙、能夠做的，大概是這樣子的前提之下來做一些我們對於食品安全的了解。","第二個部分，我要特別提到的是，溝通完之後，風險分析完之後，其實有很多很多調和，剛才特別提到的，我們會做事前的公告，公告之後其實是吸取全民大家的意見，之後再做最後的調和跟調整，能夠取得最大的共識，事實上這個部分就是我們能夠去做的地方，也謝謝楊委員這樣的提問。"],["楊委員曜：所以署長剛剛講的大概就是風險評估、科學依據、溝通等等，對不對？還有一個就是平等性，也就是食藥署這邊的看法，對於美國貿易代表署提出的臺灣對美豬、美牛進口的限制構成不必要的貿易障礙，是值得討論的。"],["姜署長至剛：這個部分稍微跟委員進一步說明一下，因為我們針對這個標示，全世界對於原產地標示的這件事情是非常非常的清楚，並沒有特別形成所謂的障礙，是一體適用的。"],["楊委員曜：對，而且我看臺灣也是不分國籍都有標示，對不對？那我問一下美牛的部分，因為美豬剛剛署長大概有談到特定的部位因為國情的關係，所以不方便透露，那這個我也不問了，我問一下美牛，我們其實從2021年開始就對30個月齡以上的美牛解禁了，可是美國對於我國針對部分美牛內臟產品施加繁瑣而且非基於科學根據的邊境查驗程序，這是他們的用語，食藥署這邊有什麼看法？"],["姜署長至剛：首先回應委員特別提到的，剛才講說針對美牛的部分，所謂全齡的牛的開放，開放這個東西是基於一些科學分析出來的結果，科學是怎麼分析的？因為對於動物，動物其實也會生病，所以動物生病的時候，要如何去醫治它？有一個世界的組織叫做World Organisation for Animal Health，我們簡稱叫做WOAH，這個WOAH裡面其實針對全世界各個國家裡面的畜產品，它的風險其實有三個層級，那層級包含完全可以忽略的，第二個是不確定等等的，這三個層級項下，由這個第三方國際重要的組織協助確立了它在國際標準之下，該國的某一個畜產品是怎麼樣子讓全世界各國可以去面對，面對這個議題，我們其實是有深刻的去了解跟進一步的分析。在這種前提之下，我們才會在後續有機會去……假如要進口之前，一定要先去國外去了解它的場，這個場事實上是在所謂的quality system assessment之後，它們國內做完之後才可以作為出口的一個依據，所以在這種國際標準之下，其實我們有機會可以確立看到的世界標準是什麼，進一步我們在風險管理的部分做一些調合。所以我們按照這樣子國際基準之下做的一個評估，其實對國人食品安全的把關部分，我們是用最嚴謹的態度來面對這個非常艱困的對談過程。以上跟委員報告。"],["楊委員曜：我也相信食藥署這邊在把關上，就從源頭開始，到邊境，到市場的標示，會站在國人健康的立場來做嚴格的把關。國際貿易談判是這樣子，就是我們有東西要賣出去，人家有東西要賣進來，食藥署這邊大概就會變成最大的苦主，因為討論度會變得很高，你們的壓力也大。我先跟主席報告，我很少占用委員會的時間，我想我是不是給署長一些時間，你把你們目前會提供給談判代表的，有關食藥署相關對臺美貿易談判，包括美牛、美豬及所有食藥署相關的事項，你們基本的大原則方向會提供給貿易代表，也藉著這個機會跟國人同胞做個說明，好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員讓我們有機會可以進一步地闡述這個部分。"],["楊委員曜：慢慢講不要緊。"],["姜署長至剛：最重要的是，因為題目其實是公開的，在USTR為美國系統性談判提出的貿易障礙評估報告裡面都有了，所以針對談判的部分，這邊跟委員做進一步的說明，因為談判之前其實是不露底牌的。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["姜署長至剛：雖然不露底牌，但我們的方向至少是食安優先。"],["楊委員曜：所以講大方向就可以了。"],["姜署長至剛：我們就是以食品安全優先，以國際的標準，用科學的風險分析為基準之後，才能建置我們國內市場稽查的機制，會以這樣的前提推出我們要去談判的。這件事情也是回應先前蔡總統到現在賴總統第一階段的食安五環中所謂的源頭管理、重建生產的管理，到第三個要加強查驗、第四個是對所謂加重黑心廠商之間的責任，到最後是全民對食品的監督。","其實去年度就已經upgrade變成五環2.0，這邊也有機會跟大家做一點說明。我們最強調的其實是全民的監督，跟源頭的管理，特別是源頭管理的這件事情，讓我們可以在中央、地方共同稽核，讓產業鏈可以結合起來。更重要的是對食品安全的教育，其實我們重新從頭一起把它建置得更完整，我們要建置一個可以當臺灣人，也可以當世界人，甚至要當宇宙人，共同為食安的標準是可以溝通的，這個溝通必須在科學的基礎之下、國際的標準之下，以進行後續第二個階段，所以在食安教育的部分，我們會把這一塊非常深植到全民的心中，瞭解這個很重要的基準、原則。以上簡單的說明，謝謝。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝署長。我最後提醒一下，不管臺美貿易談判的結果是怎麼樣，就算都沒有改變，我們查核的人力假如有需增加，署裡面還是必須提出相關的預算，以補足人力，好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：首先有一點點補充，不曉得召委這邊……"],["楊委員曜：沒關係，召委還沒有站起來。"],["姜署長至剛：我們對於邊境的查察其實要非常感謝人事總處給予的協助，我們去北區查察，在基隆關跟港口以外，到我們的機場，我們看到空間非常地窄，人力上面目前有72個查察的人力。因為這麼不好的空間，人的壓力又大，工作量又多，非常感謝我們今年度有爭取到33位稽查的人力，能夠在我們的邊境做進一步的部署。我相信國家給我們的支持，給食藥署北區區管這邊的支持，也成為我們能夠堅守食品安全，更進一步達到能夠維護全民食安的這項重要任務，我們一定會全力以赴，謝謝。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝署長，也謝謝所有在座的行政官員，大家正在面臨一場非常艱困的貿易談判。我們要把東西賣出去，我們東西賣不出去，就會影響到國人的經濟；我們必須買進相關的東西，買進來的東西，我剛剛聽了食藥署姜署長的說明，我對執政團隊是有信心的，大家加油，謝謝署長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員，因為他是從澎湖來的，所以就讓他講到滿意為止。","接續我們請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}},{"id":"160605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e52ac18f236a471081aab39e7ea9331c7ec2be5dfb0591b1bf09594e8b99b3c67d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:52:21 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start":316.765,"end":337.999,"text":"那如果檢察官他並同做限制出境,我們就直接傳證給移民署,他就出不去啦那為什麼現在會可以繫保險,然後為什麼可以持護照他如果他已經被限制出境的話,這個人基本上他是沒辦法出境,除非他有非法出境我現在不談非法出境啦,我們現在這個是在防堵"},{"start":341.641,"end":362.624,"text":"今天的修法是在防堵過去是我們不予核發就是說我不能說遺失了然後你現在不能夠再核發他一本護照但是現在我們修法之後說我們就可以把他護照廢止並註銷這個情況修法之後如果說我們目前實務運作的方式沒有改變他的漏洞依然在是不是"},{"start":364.687,"end":366.229,"text":"我看到你們的報告裡面提到廢止並註銷你們有特別提到說"},{"start":378.72,"end":393.334,"text":"你們的用語是說他會把這個混淆行政處分跟行政作業是法律性質市長你這部分你有看到嗎有那你是不是說明因為這我看不太懂就是說我知道說註銷是一個行政作業廢紙是一個"},{"start":397.297,"end":419.104,"text":"行政處分廢紙行政處分廢紙它合法護照這個行為基本上是外交部的一個行政處分對我知道註銷它基本上是一個登記對它是一個行政作業但是護照條例的第25條護照條例第25條它原本的用語它就是說持照人有前兩況情況之下應與廢紙是處分並註銷"},{"start":428.126,"end":446.034,"text":"並註銷該護照他並不會混淆啊只是我們希望他做兩個動作我們希望他做一個廢止行政處分的動作跟一個行政作業必須並行你們這樣子提在這個書面意見這樣提的意思是說你們應該把並註銷不用提我們只要提廢止就好註銷讓外交部自己去"},{"start":446.474,"end":464.82,"text":"各位報告護照條例25條它是廢紙處分並註銷那是基本上是外交部他所做的行政處分那現在我們16-2我們如果我們加一個檢查機關或法院通知他廢紙的話會變成他的行政處分是依照我們檢查官或法院所下的命令所做的"},{"start":465.46,"end":482.001,"text":"那未來在行政就地上會產生一些混淆我們擔心這樣我們希望行政處分就由外交部自己職權去發動而不是透過一個多階段的行政處分我們給他個order他才按照我們的命令去做處分所以像你這樣的說法是要把這樣子的條件"},{"start":483.172,"end":510.304,"text":"條件列到護照條例裡面去嗎我們希望就是說就是說不應該你的意思是說不用在刑事執行法裡面修因為你在刑事執行法裡面修就是由檢察官做我們擔心未來行政上救濟上會產生行政處分它會變成多階段的行政處分對會誕生這樣多階段的行政處分其實對未來救濟的話制度的話會產生一些混淆所以我們希望由外交部自己做一個行政處分所以"},{"start":511.348,"end":530.36,"text":"所以這樣子的修法在刑事訴訟法裡面修法你覺得這樣子修是不好的修法我們怕有這個疑慮所以未來可以討論討論是怎麼樣我們比較贊成就是我們希望能夠註銷但是由外交部自己去發動他的行政處分"},{"start":531.781,"end":543.644,"text":"註銷是行政作業啊行政處分是廢紙我們要求他廢紙外交部自己做一個廢紙的行政處分而不是因為我們要他做廢紙的行政處分"},{"start":545.912,"end":564.249,"text":"所以你認為這樣子的修法是不妥的因為他們會變成多階段的行政處分我們不希望透過一個多階段的行政處分去處理這個事情好我大概了解了這樣我大概就知道你們所講的這句話的意思了好那接下來你看我這邊有四條一條就已經花掉我所有的時間了"},{"start":565.444,"end":573.921,"text":"接下來我們看第101條之一大概我們就是規範有關預防性羈押的原因這個增列這個兒少"},{"start":576.938,"end":603.219,"text":"這個兒少性剝削防治法的這個條例啦齁那這個部分我大概有幾個跟大概這個我們法務部製法院看法類似的這個我們都肯定支持啦齁但第一個在這個立法理由裡面用媒體報導當作立法理由這個倒是我個人是認為說這個我們如果立法真的要通過的話立法理由應該要做修改啦齁這沒有說用媒體報導做立法理由的"},{"start":604.025,"end":613.117,"text":"再來就是就是你們也提到了在這個檢疫在這個它相同的這個"},{"start":615.373,"end":638.364,"text":"有在兒少跟性剝削條例裡面他有其他除了今天除了他這個修法所列的之外這個三十六條第四他還有其他的這些相關的其他樣態的犯罪他並沒有列入啦那不只是這個兒少性剝削防治條例啦刑法裡面有其他的這些相關的他也都沒有列入啦那這個"},{"start":640.625,"end":665.283,"text":"這部分我是覺得我們因為我們今天大概只有詢答我們今天不會進行審理我是希望說法務部是不是就這個部分我們下次當我們開始進行審理的時候能夠提出我們法務部對於就相關的其他的這些這個同樣性剝削條例兒少性剝削條例裡面的其他的樣態跟這刑法的其他的條件都能夠納入那最後再一點時間就是有關這個"},{"start":668.653,"end":695.006,"text":"檢疫輸送程序449條這部分齁我最大的疑問齁可能到時候要請你們說明是這個這個我看這個委員的提案齁這個我仔細的比對了之後跟你們110年1月5號你們行政院跟司法院會嫌送進立法院我們已經在立法院在110年2月26號完成一讀的條文是一模一樣啦"},{"start":696.636,"end":718.844,"text":"一模一樣應該是一字不差啦,一模一樣的那當初你們會嫌送進來讓立法院做了一讀了那現在委員提相同文,因為屆期不連續所以現在委員又提相同的完全一樣的文字進來結果我看司法院,我看法務部我們的這個書面意見全部都不贊成"},{"start":720.083,"end":744.991,"text":"全部都不是說不贊成啦 說請再審酌啦你們的用語是請再審酌那這個就這個部分可能你們到時候我們審查的時候你們要說明清楚為什麼在110年的時候你們送進來的文字現在一模一樣的文字進來你們就說這個有疑慮請再審酌當初是你們請立法院函請立法院來修正的現在你們又說又變成有疑慮了"},{"start":748.277,"end":752.824,"text":"現在所有的這些理由現在都已經法律通過了這部分在到時候審理的時候我們希望你們能夠就這個部分能夠講清楚"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時52分）主席，我們請王副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長，法務部要嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：先請副秘書長。"],["主席：好，副秘書長，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["沈委員發惠：副秘書長早安。回到我們今天所列的議程，總共有刑事訴訟法4個法條的修法，我看了司法院、法務部的相關書面報告，大概了解司法院跟法務部對這4個法條修法的態度，這裡面有一些問題可能要跟……那請法務部次長也一起上來，有一些問題可能要跟你們做一些討論。","我們就一條一條來，第一個，針對刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二第一項第六款的修正，主要是增訂羈押替代處分有關護照、文件相關條件的拘束力加以強化，過去原本是法院通知主管機關不予核發護照，我看到提案人的提案說明，提到目前臺灣有8萬名通緝犯登記在案，其中有出境紀錄者超過8,000人，這個數字、這個狀況的描述是確實的嗎？請法務部回應。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，通緝犯的人數，本部執行中的大概是一萬多人，偵查中大概三萬多人，當然還有審判中的，大概約1萬人左右，加起來大概6萬人左右，至於提案委員說的潛逃海外有8,000人的部分，事實上因為潛逃海外的原因很多，也許是拿雙重護照出去，也許是非法出境，所以就潛逃在外的人數，事實上是沒有辦法估計的，所以這個報告大概是警政署預估的數字，倒不是一個確切的數字。"],["沈委員發惠：好，針對這個修法，我看法務部跟司法院的報告，基本上大概都支持這樣的修法，原本是法院得通知主管機關不予核發，現在增列為得通知主管機關予以廢止並註銷。以我的了解，過去的狀況就是要他交出護照時，他會說護照遺失了、找不到了，或者是已經嚴重毀損，還是說根本沒有護照，因為這樣就沒有交出，但事實上轉身就拿著護照出國了。當然修法是為了防堵類似這樣的狀況，但是以現在的狀況而言，可能不只是修法的問題，請問目前這個部分到底是怎麼運作的？現行的實務運作，法院是怎麼通知主管機關外交部不予核發護照？是用函文通知，還是跟外交部之間有一個系統？就是檢察官給他這個羈押替代性處分之後，要怎麼通知外交部？現行實務運作是函文通知，還是有沒有建置一個系統，可以即時通知？"],["黃次長謀信：應該是用函文，目前是沒有一個資訊上嫁接的串聯。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有資訊上嫁接的系統，而是用函文方式，但常常就是在函文的中間，有一個時間差，而造成棄保潛逃的狀況。"],["黃次長謀信：這個在實務上，像限制出境，除了透過函文，另外還有一個方式是傳真，限時、迅速的傳到相關機關，未來就外交……"],["沈委員發惠：現在實務上是這樣做嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，一限制出境就這樣做，在緊急限制出境的時候是這樣做。"],["沈委員發惠：我的意思是，現行的作法就有漏洞，即使我們今天修法，要求通知外交部要廢止並註銷他的護照，如果一樣用函文的方式傳送，還是有這樣的時間差在啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果檢察官併同做限制出境，我們就直接傳真給移民署，他就出不去了。"],["沈委員發惠：那為什麼現在會棄保潛逃，為什麼可以持護照出去？他說他護照遺失了……"],["黃次長謀信：如果已經被限制出境的話，基本上，這個人是沒辦法出境，除非他非法出境或者……"],["沈委員發惠：我現在不談非法出境，今天的修法是在防堵，過去我們是不予核發，就是他說遺失了，然後不能夠再核發他一本護照，修法之後，我們就可以把他的護照廢止並註銷，但如果目前實務運作方式沒有改變，漏洞依然存在，是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：這不會有漏洞，因為檢察官限制出境之後，就會傳真到移民署，他就出不去了。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我看到你們的報告中特別提到，針對廢止並註銷，你們說這個用語會混淆行政處分跟行政作業之法律性質，次長，這部分你有看到嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：有。"],["沈委員發惠：請你說明一下，因為這部分我看不太懂，我知道註銷是行政作業，廢止是行政處分。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，廢止核發護照的這個行為，基本上是外交部的一個行政處分……"],["沈委員發惠：對，我知道。"],["黃次長謀信：註銷基本上是一個登記……"],["沈委員發惠：對，它是一個行政作業。"],["黃次長謀信：對，如果……"],["沈委員發惠：但是護照條例第二十五條原本的用語是說，持照人有前兩項情況之下，應予廢止之處分，並註銷該護照。並不會混淆啊！就是我們希望它做兩個動作，亦即一個廢止行政處分的動作跟一個行政作業，兩者必須並行，而你們書面報告的意見是你們不用提「並註銷」，只要「廢止」就好了，註銷應讓外交部自己去……"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，護照條例第二十五條是廢止處分並註銷，基本上那是外交部所做的行政處分，如果我們在刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二加上檢察機關或法院通知主管機關廢止的話，會變成這個行政處分是依照檢察官或法院所下的命令去做的，那麼未來在行政救濟上會產生一些混淆，我們是擔心這樣，所以希望行政處分就由外交部自己依職權去發動，而不是透過一個多階段的行政處分，我們給它一個order，它才按照我們的命令去做處分……"],["沈委員發惠：照你這樣的說法，是要把這樣的條件列到護照條例裡面嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我們希望就是……"],["沈委員發惠：你的意思是說不用在刑事訴訟法裡規定，因為在刑事訴訟法裡面修正，就是由檢察官做……"],["黃次長謀信：對，所以我們在報告上寫擔心未來行政救濟上會產生行政處分……"],["沈委員發惠：會變成一個多階段的行政處分嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，擔心會這樣，多階段行政處分其實對未來救濟的制度會產生一些混淆，所以我們希望由外交部自己做一個行政處分。"],["沈委員發惠：所以在刑事訴訟法裡面修法，你覺得這是不好的修法？"],["黃次長謀信：我們是怕有這個疑慮，所以說未來可以討論，但方向我們是贊成的。"],["沈委員發惠：討論是怎麼樣？把它……"],["黃次長謀信：我們是希望能夠註銷，但是由外交部自己去發動它的行政處分。"],["沈委員發惠：註銷是行政作業啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對……"],["沈委員發惠：行政處分是廢止，我們要求它廢止……"],["黃次長謀信：對，就是外交部自己做一個廢止的行政處分，而不是因為我們要它做這個廢止的行政處分，它不是依照……"],["沈委員發惠：所以你認為這樣的修法是不妥的，因為會變成多階段的行政處分？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我們怕會有疑慮，所以不希望透過多階段的行政處分去處理這個事情。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我大概了解了，這樣我大概就知道你們所講的這句話的意思。","哇！你看這邊有4條，單單討論1條就花掉很多時間了。","接下來看第一百零一條，這大概是規範有關預防性羈押的原因，增列兒少性剝削防制條例，這個部分我與法務部、司法院的看法類似，我們都肯定、支持。但是用媒體報導當作立法理由，我個人倒是認為如果立法真的要通過的話，立法理由應該要做修改，沒有用媒體報導作為立法理由的情況。再來，你們也提到除了今天修法所列的之外，在兒少性剝削防制條例裡面還有其他相關樣態的犯罪，並沒有列入，不只是兒少性剝削防制條例，刑法裡面也有其他相關的樣態都沒有列入。因為我們今天只有詢答，不會進行逐條審查，我希望當我們開始進行審查的時候，法務部對兒少性剝削條例裡面的其他樣態以及刑法的相關犯罪都能夠同樣納入。","最後，再一點時間，有關簡易訴訟程序第四百四十九條的部分，我最大的疑問可能到時候要請你們說明，我看了這個委員的提案，我仔細比對了之後，跟110年1月5日行政院、司法院會銜送進立法院，立法院已經在110年2月26日完成一讀的條文一模一樣，應該是一字不差、一模一樣的。當初你們會銜送進來讓立法院做了一讀，因為屆期不連續，所以現在委員又提了相同、完全一樣的文字進來，結果我看到司法院、法務部的書面意見全部都是不贊成，不是不贊成，而是請再審酌，你們的用語是「請再審酌」。就這個部分，在我們審查的時候，你們要說明清楚，為什麼110年的時候你們送進來的文字，現在一模一樣的文字又送進來，你們就說這個有疑慮，請再審酌？當初是你們函請立法院修正的，現在你們又變成有疑慮了。幸好立法院懶惰，上一屆沒有審查通過，不然上一屆審查通過了，現在再講這些理由，可是法律都已經通過了，等之後審查的時候，我希望你們就這個部分能夠講清楚，以上。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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謝謝主席 有請陳主委好 有請陳主委主委 早安 辛苦囉我也好核電研議的問題還是要取決於安全安全安全安全才是首要是的 是的好 今天其實我不想要談這個核電的部分喔我來談另外一個話題 就是放射性物質的部分喔"},{"start":32.342,"end":47.721,"text":"放射性物質的運送監控的一個部分其實我們發現光是運送規則大概已經有17年沒有修正了那我們大部分都只是聚焦在所謂的包裝、標示或者是一些所謂的文件的一些"},{"start":47.961,"end":53.642,"text":"動態靜態的一個規範那但是呢在所謂的這個放射性物質他們在運送的過程當中有可能會因為失竊或者是因為事故的發生或者是因為損害或者是外洩的一個風險但是我們缺乏了所謂的這個即時監控跟通報的一個機制感覺是已經跟這個現代的這個所謂的這個外洩的一個風險其實已經有一點脫鉤"},{"start":76.368,"end":80.651,"text":"那根據這個國際原子能總署他們其實也特別的建議就是說所謂的高風險的放射源應該要建立這個即時的定位還有異常通報的一個機制但是目前為止我們看到台灣的部分就是我國的部分其實還是依賴這個紙本跟事後的一個稽查"},{"start":95.763,"end":99.125,"text":"那這個明顯其實已經留下了一些所謂的控管的一個空窗那我們不禁要擔心在沒有設置及時的監控跟輻射偵測的一個裝置如果真的當車輛遺失或者是發生交通事故或者是遭竊的時候我們的主管機關怎麼樣在第一時間當中可以掌握車禍或者是事故的位置或者是放射員的計量"},{"start":123.84,"end":141.333,"text":"他到底外泄的一個程度這個部分我們怎麼來做修補謝謝委員確實追蹤這個輻射源是很重要的工作過去原輪會跟現在的河岸會"},{"start":144.575,"end":155.024,"text":"我覺得這方面是需要補強的所以我們目前其實今年已經開始導入高風險社員的監控技術就隨時隨地能夠掌控"},{"start":160.977,"end":168.601,"text":"這個高風險輻射源的位置已經確定了嗎現在已經正在進行中那什麼時候會什麼時候你所謂的這個高風險的控管的機制這個機制比較具體的一個說法或者比較具體的一個做法是什麼這點我請主長跟大家講細節"},{"start":182.236,"end":197.848,"text":"報告委員那我們現在是一個雙軌的一個概念就是剛剛陳如委員所說的在法規的一個修法上我們現在在持續的在推動那在輔導業者的一個法尊上我們就是現在已經開始去做一些輔導的計畫我們是用"},{"start":200.25,"end":227.767,"text":"現行的GPS的一個車用的GPS來去做這個運送過程中的追蹤那至於我們現在這是強制性的呢還是說輔導現在是現在只是輔導對對對先讓他們在這一塊未來的配套方案可以執行的上來那目前輔導的這個期程是從什麼時候開始什麼時候要輔導完畢什麼時候要有一些所謂的規範跟比較強制性的一個強制性他們要來做這樣子的一個"},{"start":229.267,"end":236.59,"text":"監測的一個設備的工作那目前的一個輔導我們是都目前是並沒有強制但是也沒有一旦上線了我們目前是打算不會退場但是因為有一些即時會有收到各自業者各自的所以我們在這部分我們就是會促進修法的一個授權因為我剛剛有提到"},{"start":253.815,"end":271.124,"text":"因為我剛剛有提到關於這個運送的規則已經大概將近有十幾年沒修了大概將近有17年沒修了那這個部分其實我們是不是也要來同步的更新跟修正對 我們現在也在著手在探討這個運送規則所以在這部分我們也會來去辦理中好 那輔導的這個盤點就是你們輔導的一個對象跟整個所有的一些數量應該要盤點的這些數量其實到時候可以再提供給我辦公室嗎好 可以"},{"start":283.55,"end":306.976,"text":"好 那另外我想要再問就是關於所謂的化學品跟高壓氣體的一個運送已經納入所謂的GPS的追蹤的系統而且建立了相關的資訊平台但是道路運輸管理規則當中也要求所謂的高壓氣體的運具應該要加定位的裝置但是放射性的物質沒有加定時及時的一個追蹤"},{"start":308.497,"end":330.616,"text":"有聽出來嗎就是我剛剛講的放射性的物質是沒有加的但是我們講到剛剛化學品跟高壓氣體它是有GPS的追蹤但是剛剛講放射性的物質其實沒有這個追蹤我想要問一下何安慧放射性的物質同樣具有重大的一個公共的危險為什麼沒有強制施行而且沒有追蹤"},{"start":332.183,"end":349.633,"text":"我也知道这方面是需要加强的部分而且放射性物质如果万一遗失的话是会造成社会的恐慌的那这个部分有相关的一些规划吗有相关的规划跟进度吗我们现在已经规划要做这方面的事情所有放射性物质运送"},{"start":350.453,"end":360.307,"text":"任何時候我們都要知道他在哪個地方如果萬一遺失的話我們有辦法追蹤到他遺失的地點這是我們規劃的目標現在是規劃中還是有規劃的期程嗎這個部分"},{"start":367.097,"end":388.831,"text":"包括委員因為放射性物質它還有一個特性就是它有一個輻射所以輻射跟那個一些追蹤器的這一些的干擾或者是損傷我們因為它必須要透過一些技術研發所以我們現在剛剛主委講的是我們在規劃中是我們已經在研發中一旦研發上OK了我們就會直接的一個有沒有一個預期的時間"},{"start":390.372,"end":407.388,"text":"這邊我們有目前有一個計畫在在做研發那目前我們希望是在這兩年兩三年內能夠有所技術完整的一個突破然後我們就可以來去推動這一塊好那再來我要提到就是這個有方法其實我們從92年制定到現在其實也沒有修訂這個比剛剛的這個"},{"start":408.869,"end":410.511,"text":"這個部分這麼重要的一個措施沒有納入修法這個部分我們怎麼來做修補"},{"start":425.758,"end":440.209,"text":"有關於服防法的這一塊我們持續辦理中那因為目前跟委員報告目前的一個進度就是我們因為我們核能安全委員會是委員制所以我們已經通過就是一些修法的一個草案已經通過但是因為委員過程中也有一些關切"},{"start":441.85,"end":466.498,"text":"因為去年其實這個代理主委已經有講了這個修法草案其實已經完成但是我們到現在為止其實還沒有看到他送進立法院啊這部分其實我辦公室也在追這個部分對那大概什麼時候我們可以看得到現在現在整個還是在滾動還要送行政院這邊來審議一審議完成後我們就會送到送到那個立法院這邊來好如果有更進一步的進程再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":469.141,"end":476.331,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝郭雨琴委員主委請回那我們接下來請葉元芝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":228,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（9時56分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委早安，辛苦了。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：核電延役的問題還是要取決於安全！安全！安全！安全才是首要。"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天其實我不想要談核電的部分，我來談另外一個話題，就是放射性物質。放射性物質的運送監控，其實我們發現光是運送規則就已經有17年沒有修正了，我們大部分都只聚焦在包裝、標示或一些文件的靜態規範，但是在放射性物質運送的過程當中，有可能會發生失竊、事故、損害或外洩的風險，而我們缺乏了即時監控跟通報的機制，感覺已經跟外洩的風險有一點脫鉤。國際原子能總署特別地建議，就是針對高風險的放射源應該要建立即時的定位，還有異常通報的機制，但是到目前為止，我們看到我國（臺灣）還是依賴紙本跟事後的稽查，這明顯已經留下了一些控管的空窗，我們不禁要擔心，在沒有設置即時監控跟輻射偵測裝置的情況下，如果真的發生車輛遺失、交通事故或遭竊的時候，主管機關怎麼樣在第一時間可以掌握車禍或事故的位置，以及放射源的劑量、外洩的程度？這個部分怎麼來做修補？"],["陳主任委員明真：謝謝委員。確實追蹤輻射源是很重要的工作，過去的原能會跟現在的核安會覺得這方面是需要補強的，我們核安會今年已經開始導入高風險射源的監控技術，就是隨時隨地能夠掌控高風險輻射源的位置。"],["郭委員昱晴：已經確定了嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：現在正在設置之中。"],["郭委員昱晴：你所謂的高風險控管機制比較具體的說法或作法是什麼？"],["陳主任委員明真：這點我請組長跟您報告細節部分。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，我們現在是一個雙軌的概念，誠如剛剛委員所說的，在法規的修法上，我們現在持續地在推動；在輔導業者的法遵上，我們現在已經開始去做一些輔導，我們是用車用的GPS去做運送過程中的追蹤；至於我們現在研發……"],["郭委員昱晴：這是強制性的還是……"],["張組長淑君：輔導。"],["郭委員昱晴：現在只是輔導？"],["張組長淑君：對，先讓他們在這一塊未來的配套方案可以執行得上來。"],["郭委員昱晴：目前的輔導期程是從什麼時候開始？什麼時候要輔導完畢？什麼時候要有一些規範，並強制他們要設置監測設備？"],["張組長淑君：目前的輔導並沒有強制，一旦上線了，我們目前是打算不會退場，但是因為有一些會即時收到業者個資，在這部分我們就是會促進修法的授權，因為這樣的話就可以強制了。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我剛剛有提到，關於運送的規則已經將近17年沒修了，這個部分是不是也要同步來更新跟修正？"],["張組長淑君：對，我們現在也著手在探討運送規則，所以在這部分，我們也會去辦理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，輔導的盤點，就是你們輔導的對象跟所有的數量，到時候可以再提供給我辦公室嗎？"],["張組長淑君：好，可以。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外，我想要再問關於化學品跟高壓氣體的運送已經納入GPS的追蹤系統，而且建立了相關的資訊平台，道路運輸管理規則也要求高壓氣體的運具應該要加定位裝置，但是放射性的物質沒有加即時的追蹤，就是放射性物質是沒有加的，但是化學品跟高壓氣體的部分是有加GPS的。我想要問一下核安會，放射性物質同樣具有重大的公共危險，為什麼沒有強制施行，而且沒有追蹤？"],["陳主任委員明真：我也知道這是需要加強的部分，而且放射性物質萬一遺失的話，是會造成社會恐慌的。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個部分有相關的規劃和進度嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們現在已經規劃要做這方面的事情，除了放射性物質的運送，任何時候我們都要知道它在哪個地方，萬一遺失的話，我們能夠追蹤到遺失的地點，這是我們規劃的目標。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，現在是規劃中嗎？這個部分有規劃的期程嗎？"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，因為放射性物質還有一個特性就是它有輻射，關於輻射對於追蹤器的干擾或是損傷，因為它必須透過一些技術研發，所以剛剛主委講的我們正在規劃中是指我們已經在研發中，一旦研發OK了，我們就會直接上線。"],["郭委員昱晴：有沒有預期的時間？"],["張組長淑君：我們目前有一個計畫在進行研發，我們希望在這兩、三年內技術能夠有所突破，然後我們就可以去推動這一塊。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來我要提到的是輻防法，其實我們從92年制定到現在也沒有修訂，這個比剛剛所說的運輸管制更久，這個制度已經空窗超過十年，這麼重要的措施沒有納入修法，這個部分我們怎麼修補？"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，有關於輻防法這一塊我們持續辦理中，在此向委員報告目前的進度，因為核能安全委員會是委員制，雖然我們已經通過一些修法的草案，但因為委員在過程中也一直有一些關切……"],["郭委員昱晴：去年代理主委已經有講過其實修法草案已經完成，但是我們到現在為止都還沒有看到它送進立法院，其實我辦公室也在追這個部分，大概什麼時候我們可以看得到？"],["張組長淑君：現在整個還在滾動，還要送行政院審議，待審議一完成，我們就會送到立法院來。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有更進一步的進程再提供給本席辦公室，謝謝。"],["張組長淑君：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，主委請回。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5a158de1f00a4363ac89945c4c3ca21e148de7f242c34ed8dd6197b49c015b13e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:45:36 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陳主委好那我們今天討論的是關於核安會的這個報告那我當然也關心到目前核一核二核三的營運狀況還有是不是在除役當然已經有些在除役了所以特別講到的是說請看表大家看到這個表裡面可以看到核一核二這邊都已經進入到這個研議階段了他在18到19 21到23都已經進入到"},{"start":34.13,"end":36.772,"text":"我們現在在看這個問題的時候就在於說當初可能就沒有什麼研議的需求那也沒關係我們繼續往下看"},{"start":54.846,"end":80.594,"text":"核三的部分就是去年已經出現了一號機是在去年就除役了核三的二號機是在今年的五月十七要除役那我現在詢問的是說如果是進入到非核家園的情況因為民進黨的政策是在非核家園那我們繼續往下看的時候非核家園他事實上特別是針對核廢料的處理當中的有幾個部分大家可以看到這個PPD裡面說說剛才前面的那位"},{"start":83.835,"end":107.92,"text":"行政官員他提到說高階是用水式的部分 還有乾式的部分目前都儲存在我們的合一合二廠嘛 對不對好 那這個部分呢沒有問題 可是那另外還要最後要有到所謂最高或是最遠的這樣子的就是永久的這個儲置廠嘛 對不對可是事實上這些都目前真的並沒有像現在這個表彰這麼想要順利 而且往下看"},{"start":109.079,"end":132.372,"text":"往下看的時候你就可以看到目前就出現到在合一以合一為例的時候呢它的乾式的儲存槽就是不夠這不夠這個原因然後呢還包括的是前面的部分呢用過的這個燃料池的濕式的部分也是不夠的好那我們特別是想到因為你乾式不夠你在水式的部分呢就不能把它上去嘛這是對吧"},{"start":133.713,"end":156.18,"text":"那如果這樣的情況之下呢當然還有一個問題是最終儲存廠剛剛陳秀寶委員有提到的是它經濟部目前它是一個專案辦公室但是這個部分就有很大的問題是請問一下全世界目前有哪一個國家進行了最終永久儲存廠的一個設置已經完成的有嗎好像有一個國家已經完成是荷蘭"},{"start":160.211,"end":166.212,"text":"全世界一百九十幾個國家至少才只有一個國家芬蘭但是全世界有其他的幾十個國家都使用在核電對不對所以這個問題絕對不會是大問題只是如果你在前面的"},{"start":177.575,"end":196.987,"text":"你還是繼續找你的永久儲存場但是你原來在高階的部分你在原來的乾式的部分你剛才說也是最重的部分就是應該儲存可是你現在遇到這個部分乾式儲存場的部分在合一的內容當中我們可以看到你呢那你有沒有場地呢有吧我們現在換下一頁"},{"start":199.384,"end":227.184,"text":"現在業裡面看到的是說 以剛才看到合一合二 我們特別以合一來看喔248.5公頃當中 乾式儲存場的面積0.45相對比才0.18 照他來講的話 他需要的話呢以合一場的話 像6.3座的部分 籃球場目前在以場區248.5公頃的時候 還有很多的場地 很區的做那為什麼沒有做 有在做我知道 但是問題是地方政府在砍是不是 是這樣嗎"},{"start":229.305,"end":253.399,"text":"請回答報告委員有關台電公司合一廠室外乾式儲存部分它跟地方的液體已經消除最終核准就對了對 我們也已經完成熱測試就是已經完成兩組互相的裝載進行完熱測試現在正在審查它的運轉值"},{"start":254.56,"end":262.242,"text":"那這樣子看到表示說合一的情況之下乾式儲存廠的問題就沒有事實上是沒有問題只是要待最後核准然後去處理就可以對不對"},{"start":263.578,"end":292.306,"text":"他另外還有一個二期的室內乾儲計劃是規劃要把所有的用過的燃料全部搬出來目前還在 沒錯就是因為你乾式儲存好了那濕式當然可以拿上來嘛那可是你看到核二這一部分然後還包括核三的這些部分等等的照資料顯示出來事實上乾式儲存槽的問題事實上沒有問題空間沒有問題技術性只要現在有這個研議需求的話至少事實上不是研議需求如果非核家園要做的時候絕對不能把高階核廢料放在"},{"start":293.807,"end":305.925,"text":"這個水勢的這部分也不能放在乾勢的部分嘛對不對當然乾勢是又比水勢又更高安全一點對不對是嘛你都點頭了齁所以在這個情況之下是溝通的問題所以我現在繼續往下看的是在這裡"},{"start":307.455,"end":319.462,"text":"你可以往下一頁我們可以看到 核安事務上面工作重點在這邊前面的話 核安事務核子保防都沒有問題失重你都要管理可是最重要的 你有負責溝通跟資訊公開那請問你們溝通程序如何我們繼續往下看你確定溝通是很重要的"},{"start":325.606,"end":329.049,"text":"那我們現在以最新到今年4月1號的資料顯示核電廠的廚藝安全管制的大試劑顯示說到2月26號的時候核能電廠的廚藝管制作業已經做了第20次的溝通會議那請問一下溝通的歷程是怎麼樣請你把最後的最新的第20次的溝通結果跟大家報告"},{"start":346.461,"end":363.699,"text":"跟委員說明這次2月26號的溝通會議是和安會跟台電公司針對技術細節的部分就是有些設備要營運維護保養這部分就是為了燃料的安全這部分做技術的討論"},{"start":364.778,"end":386.003,"text":"燃料的安全對 因為有些目前核一二廠用過的燃料池還是有燃料所以要維持燃料的安全所以針對這部分有跟台電公司做技術的討論所以你的燃料是指普遍還是指核一核二還是核三都有 都有對啊 那結果是怎麼樣所以這部分針對技術細節還在討論過程中"},{"start":388.513,"end":403.521,"text":"好,但是你們溝通是自己內部在溝通,而不是跟地方在溝通,跟縣市政府在溝通,是嗎?溝通有分很多種,這部分是針對台電跟河岸位,做技術事件那你們請問一下,你過去有跟地方政府在做溝通嗎?"},{"start":404.656,"end":433.845,"text":"或地方的居民在做溝通嗎跟委員報告針對台電公司提出來的合一二三場的廚藝計畫那核安會在審查一開始的時候有跟召開地方說明會跟地方的鄉親做說明那也邀請地方的鄉親到那結果呢結果有沒有有溝沒有通是不是跟委員說明就是當地居民所提出來的意見都會納入核安會的管制的那是支持還是反對"},{"start":435.44,"end":460.328,"text":"是說說他們覺得這個安全是夠的事還是不夠當然他會提出他所以在地居民所關切的一些議題比如說工作權啊然後一些經驗回饋金這部分當然也會關切到處於過程中的一些安全你想到的工作權還有回饋金事實上他是在研議之後才有可能發生吧如果他已經停止還有什麼機會發生呢"},{"start":462.635,"end":487.052,"text":"跟委員說明喔那在台電公司現行那我現在因為我的時間快要已經大概就在不到一分鐘就結束了那我們繼續往後看齁這個地方就是在於依照核安會他本身監督職責的處分他應該去加強對於他應該去加強跟地方政府跟民意的這個溝通齁不要去推卸責任尤其是說合意的研製到這個儲存到他現在還在剛才已經說有改變了"},{"start":490.074,"end":509.359,"text":"但是就是這一部分就是應該繼續再進行再繼續下來另外呢有環安環境保護的團體要提到說非核家園如果真的要落實的話核子事故緊急應變法跟核子反應器設施管制法跟核子損害賠償法所說的核安三法應該要去修法還是負責著核安維護那核安會不修法的理由是什麼"},{"start":517.964,"end":547.268,"text":"因為這是後面的發生事情的時候的一些保障最重要是這裡跟委員說明有關於環台所提出來核子反應器設施管制法這一部分他主要目的是說如果未來有新建核冷機組的時候要將地質的條件納入考量那現在核電使用就要回到三個原則就是核安核廢棄沒有你現在把核子損害賠償法你講到原來本來就核子損害賠償法這邊為什麼不訂不去修"},{"start":549.919,"end":569.068,"text":"報告委員 針對核子損害賠償法目前我們有核子損害賠償法當然環團或是民間有一些聲音說我們要去精進過去在101年的時候我們有在整個檢討那因為整個時空環境的關係目前這個並不是非常這個"},{"start":570.549,"end":595.546,"text":"破竊的法案 但是我們本來也就有核子損害延長法沒有 就是修法 所以你現在說沒有破竊的需要所以如果發生 是不是代表發生核子事故的風險事實上是蠻低的應該是可以這樣講 因為說沒有那破竊的需要嘛好 那這樣的情況下往下看 我再稍微再給我一分不到三四百塊就結束所以看起來說 如果這邊看起來是風險發生這麼低的情況之下那研議是不是有可能性"},{"start":596.266,"end":601.328,"text":"民眾黨上個禮拜所做的民意調查形式出來是六七成以上的民意是覺得說在我們安全無虞的情況是可以研議的請您去尊重這樣的一個民意的需求當然是安全合格的情況這樣最後一頁就是說我們當然希望都 河岸會繼續再把我們的把關如果是有這種"},{"start":618.134,"end":618.474,"text":"好 謝謝劉淑冰委員 主委請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":184,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（9時45分）有請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["劉委員書彬：陳主委好。今天討論的是關於核安會的業務報告，我也關心目前核一、核二及核三的營運狀況，還有是不是在除役，當然有些已經除役了。要特別提到的是，從簡報上這張表裡可以看到，核一、核二的機組分別在2018到2023年都已經進入到除役的階段了，目前是停機狀態，有關各機組延役申請時間點推算到前5年，分別是2013年、2014年、2016年及2018年，現在看這延宕問題的時候，可能當初沒有延役的需求，也沒關係。有關核三的部分，1號機去年就除役了，2號機預計在今年5月17日除役。","因為民進黨提倡的政策是非核家園，如果進入到非核家園，就剛才前面行政官員提到核廢料的處理當中，高階是用水式及乾式的貯存方式，目前都貯存在核一及核二廠嘛！對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這個部分沒有問題，另外最後處置是要做最高或是最遠的永久處置場嘛！對不對？事實上，這些目前並沒有像這圖表上顯示的那麼順利，以核一為例，目前它的乾式貯存槽是不夠的，還包括之前使用過的濕式燃料池也是不夠的，特別想到的是如果乾式不夠，在濕式的部分就不能放上去，對吧？好，還有一個問題是最終處置場，剛剛陳秀寳委員有提到，經濟部目前有設置專案辦公室，但這個部分就有很大的問題，請問一下全世界目前有哪一個國家是已經完成設置最終永久貯存場的，有嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：目前已經完成設置的國家是芬蘭。"],["劉委員書彬：對，全世界一百九十幾個國家，才只有芬蘭1個國家有永久貯存場。"],["陳主任委員明真：芬蘭。"],["劉委員書彬：但是全世界其他幾十個國家都還在使用核電，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：是。"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以這個問題絕對不會是大問題，還是可以繼續找永久貯存場，但是在高階乾式的部分，您剛才也提到最重要的應該是乾式貯存，到底在核一有沒有乾式貯存場的場地呢？有吧！有關乾式貯存空間需求，特別以核一為例，在廠區面積248.5公頃當中，乾式貯存設施的面積為0.45公頃，相對廠區的比例才0.18%，相當於6.3座籃球場，目前在廠區248.5公頃當中，還有很多的空間可以使用，為什麼沒有做？我知道有在做，但是問題是地方政府在卡，是不是？是這樣嗎？請回答。"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，有關台電公司核一廠的室外乾式貯存部分，它跟地方的議題已經消除……"],["劉委員書彬：最終核准就對了？"],["陳組長文泉：對，我們也已經同意熱測試，就是完成兩組互相的裝載，進行完熱測試，現在正在審查運轉執照。"],["劉委員書彬：表示核一廠的乾式貯存場事實上是沒有問題的，只要等最後核准後去處理就可以，對不對？"],["陳組長文泉：另外它還有一個二期的室內乾貯計畫，是規劃要把所有用過的燃料全部搬出來，目前還在……"],["劉委員書彬：對，沒錯，因為乾式貯存場好了，濕式就可以拿上來，但在核二及核三的部分，照資料顯示出來，事實上乾式貯存槽是沒有問題，空間沒有問題，技術性只要現在有延役需求的話，事實上不是延役需求，如果非核家園要做的時候，絕對不能把高階核廢料放在水式的這部分，也不能放在乾式的部分，對不對？當然乾式比水式安全性更高一點，對不對？是嘛！你都點頭了，所以在這個情況之下，是溝通的問題。","接下來，可以看到核安事務的工作重點，前面的核安事務、核子保防都沒有問題，加上施政管理，最重要的是要負責溝通跟資訊公開，請問你們溝通程序如何？你確定溝通是很重要的，以你們現在最新到今年4月1日的核電廠除役安全管制大事紀顯示，在2月26日已經召開了第20次的核能電廠的除役管制作業溝通會議，請問溝通的歷程是怎麼樣？請你把最後及最新的第20次溝通結果跟大家報告。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，2月26日這一次的溝通會議，是核安會跟台電公司為了燃料的安全，針對設備的營運、維護、保養作技術細節的討論。"],["劉委員書彬：燃料的安全？"],["高組長斌：對，因為目前核一、二廠用過的燃料池還存有燃料，所以為了要維持燃料的安全，針對這部分在跟台電公司做技術的討論。"],["劉委員書彬：所以你提到的燃料安全是指普遍的，還是指核一、核二或在運轉的核三？"],["高組長斌：都有。"],["劉委員書彬：那結果是怎麼樣？"],["高組長斌：這一部分針對技術細節還在討論過程中。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你們溝通是自己內部在溝通，而不是跟地方在溝通、跟縣市政府在溝通，是嗎？"],["高組長斌：溝通有分很多種，這一部分是針對台電跟核安會做技術性的……"],["劉委員書彬：請問一下，你們過去有跟地方政府溝通嗎？或跟地方的居民溝通嗎？"],["高組長斌：跟委員報告，針對台電公司提出來的核一、二、三廠的除役計畫，核安會在審查一開始的時候，有召開地方說明會，跟地方的鄉親做說明，也有邀請地方的鄉親到核安會了解。"],["劉委員書彬：那結果呢？結果是有溝沒有通，是不是？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，當地居民所提出來的意見都會納入核安會管制的檢討。"],["劉委員書彬：那是支持還是反對？他們覺得這個安全夠了還是不夠？"],["高組長斌：當然他們會提出在地居民所關切的一些議題，比如工作權、回饋金，也會關切除役過程中的安全。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你講到的工作權還有回饋金，事實上，它是延役之後才有可能發生，如果它已經停止了，還有什麼機會發生呢？"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，台電公司現行如果在運轉期間……"],["劉委員書彬：因為我的時間快要到了，我大概再不到1分鐘就結束，我們繼續往後看。依照核安會本來的監督職責，應該去加強跟地方政府、跟民意的溝通，不要推卸責任，像核一的貯存，剛才說已經有改變，但是這部分就是應該繼續進行。另外，有環境保護團體提到非核家園如果真的要落實，核子事故緊急應變法、核子反應器設施管制法、核子損害賠償法等所謂的核安三法應該要修法，才是負責任的核安維護，那核安會不修法的理由是什麼？因為這是發生事情後的一些保障，最重要是這裡。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，有關於環團所提出來的核子反應器設施管制法，主要目的是如果未來有新建核能機組的時候，要將地質條件納入考量，現在核電使用就要回到三原則，就是核安、核廢……"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，原來就有核子損害賠償法，這邊為什麼不修？"],["李組長綺思：報告委員，目前我們有核子損害賠償法，當然環團或是民間有一些聲音說我們要去精進，過去在101年的時候，我們有作過整個檢討，但是因為時空環境的關係，目前這個並不是非常迫切的法案，我們本來也就有核子損害賠償法。"],["劉委員書彬：好，沒有就是修法，你現在說沒有迫切的需要，是不是代表發生核子事故的風險事實上是蠻低的？應該是可以這樣講，因為就沒有那麼迫切需要嘛。在這樣的情況下，往下看，再給我30秒時間，很快就結束。如果發生的風險這麼低，那延役是不是有可能性？根據民眾黨上個禮拜所做的民意調查顯示，有六、七成以上的民意覺得在安全無虞的情況下是可以延役的，請你尊重這樣的民意需求，當然是安全核可的情況下。","最後，我們當然希望核安會繼續再幫我們把關，如果是有這種需求要反映的時候，請你們幫核安把關，而且要符合國際的標準。請你們用理性、務實、科學的方式來處理臺灣的核安問題，特別是如果照著原來民進黨的方式在做，更重要的是民意因應淨零碳排有新的需求、有核電延役的需求，請核安會要因應，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員，主委請回。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},{"id":"160601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5061118c7179c64199742596ee20a55b848de7f242c34ed8de3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:38:22 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謝謝委員 謝謝各位官員那我想請邱部長"},{"start":11.792,"end":35.883,"text":"委員長部長因為您擔任非常久的教授所以我也想問一個很生活化的問題啊教授平常看過很多學生的報告如果今天我被指派一個題目是說我要寫我的家庭結果呢這份報告寫了我的外公外婆寫了爺爺奶奶連鄰居都寫了可是沒有寫到爸爸媽媽跟兄弟姊妹你覺得這個報告幾分"},{"start":40.795,"end":63.157,"text":"那要看他寫的可能他以他以外公為榮所以花費了30分鐘都在寫他外公外婆的所謂成績部長我今天要幫您講幾句話今天我們收到了負責去談判的經貿談判辦公室的報告我們來看一下 幫我按下一張"},{"start":64.755,"end":84.055,"text":"他就只有封面提到美豬美牛今天給的議程題目叫做美豬美牛進口如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益書面報告上有這兩個字再來就是主席各位委員承蒙本辦公室對美豬美牛提出報告再來全部都沒有了"},{"start":87.608,"end":112.703,"text":"全部都沒有了我可以幫你改題目教授教授如果我可以我是您的助教的話啦我會幫這份報告改一個題目叫做川普的貿易哲學與全球關稅分佈圖因為他裡面全部都在講全球關稅分佈圖最後一句話只有以上敬請主席以及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":115.526,"end":134.493,"text":"部長我今天對你非常好因為我想幫你講話來監督食安的人是你負責把關全民健康的是你可是談判的是他們您不會覺得自己很委屈嗎我想政府是一體的守護國家也是前提"},{"start":135.694,"end":153.465,"text":"那個政府跟人民共同的權益我們就是這個台灣我們台灣人民要活得快樂 時的安心好 那我希望其實今天我們也是藉由這個機會這個場合可以做溝通因為您是衛生主管機關的最高指導人嘛"},{"start":154.085,"end":170.916,"text":"那今天您對於未來談判的結果可能影響到國人有哪些問題這個是您需要先跟談判辦公室溝通好談判辦公室在代表您去跟美方做溝通所以我們等一下會就可能美方在意的幾個點我們也一起來討論我們也可以藉這個機會可以讓未來代表我們出去溝通的長官們可以把我們台灣人的聲音也納進去謝謝"},{"start":179.178,"end":193.757,"text":"好 這邊可能要問一下因為這個新聞在非常多台灣的媒體也都有曝光嘛大家知道說自從2024年年初一直到2024年年底美國的牛群就有"},{"start":194.518,"end":218.113,"text":"規模的這個H5N1禽流感病毒的感染那一直到2024年年底已經有15個州689個牧場其中加州又最為嚴重因此他們也撲殺了很多可憐的牛隻後來又發現說這個牛還會傳染給工人所以又發現了36名跟牛隻接觸的工人感染了H5N1病毒"},{"start":219.181,"end":239.262,"text":"那這個引起國際的關注所以我想問呢您對於美牛的茶廠以及美豬的茶廠現在的態度是如何還有您最近查了幾次以及未來經過這樣子的談判您有可能會修改您的頻率嗎您會根據什麼方式來修改"},{"start":239.942,"end":255.736,"text":"報告委員,我想我們一定遵守法規,遵守法規的一個規定去執行那我想委員一定很願意聽我們國際死案專家我們江署長來跟你做一個說明"},{"start":257.368,"end":275.914,"text":"江署長最近好像有過去查場嗎這個我大概知道我跟委員做進一步的報告因為我們看到委員非常專業的提到乳牛等等的有相關Bird flu就是所謂的禽流感的疫情那其實我們因為"},{"start":277.254,"end":287.231,"text":"擔任我們邊境所有進口來台灣的食品安全任何的農產品或者畜產品進來我們把關的機制所以我們要去更加買"},{"start":288.905,"end":317.594,"text":"至少他的廠在國內特別是美國的國內有一項叫做Quality System就是品質系統的Assessment叫QSA之後已經認證之後進一步做所謂Export出口的Verification認證之後他們國內會先做完是確定是安全的然後讓我們選擇任何進來台灣的都有機會去看我們要去"},{"start":318.394,"end":334.681,"text":"看到的廠廠 廠款 那就是系統性的廠廠好 我懂 那等一下其實美國也有一些聲音我們可以一起討論再來 部長這個是您擔任立委的時候我昨天也有把您擔任立委時對於這些台美21世紀貿易倡議的"},{"start":337.262,"end":362.524,"text":"這些質詢的發言等等都有看完我也很敬佩你因為部長有堅持住您剛剛的發言跟您以前的發言都非常的類似您還是為全國人民把關那最近就您的掌握呢美國還有沒有再類似講這些我們會再去管制進口它的原產地標籤啊檢驗等等的障礙與關切呢因為這是農民也蠻在意的"},{"start":367.133,"end":382.923,"text":"好,我想我們站在衛福部的立場,不管怎麼樣就是把相關有關的一些食品按照法規來執行以外就是不斷的進行科學的分析,提供給我們整體的政府"},{"start":384.135,"end":401.769,"text":"來做 但是原則上所有的一切都是一體適用所以我們會用這樣子這樣的原則跟各個國家去談論相關的一些事情 那在這邊有提到賴總統有對彭博社做了一個投書 所以他說他會擴大對美國能源 農業"},{"start":405.291,"end":409.034,"text":"工業還有軍售方面的採購來增加雙方的投資量能在他投書之前因為農業有被拉進去嘛農業上其實我們已經對美國是逆差了那可能還會再增加或者是降低這些貿易壁壘等等這個在他投書之前您有知道嗎"},{"start":427.455,"end":443.409,"text":"我想總統提的這些都是得到國際間以及我們國內的最大的肯定我想這個方向是我們應該要去做的所以我們就要因應嘛因為可能進口的農產品會變多再來呢這個談判內容在場"},{"start":446.832,"end":472.291,"text":"其實這個報告有寫到真的有寫到真心提到美豬美牛大概只有衛福部跟農業部這個本席予以肯定但農業部的結語是說4月11號的首次視訊會議交換意見過程很順利但這邊我們當然也會想知道說過程順利OK有沒有初步談到可能的方向就是跟彭博的投書是不是一致"},{"start":474.483,"end":498.77,"text":"是不是農業部是報告委員謝謝委員關心並支持台灣農業那開啟談判只是第一步那實質內容其實雙方都還在溝通當中是所以還沒有辦法跟我們講到方向已經開啟了談判是謝謝委員支持那這邊也要請教邱部長這個文件不知道你有沒有看到過因為在關稅之後呢"},{"start":499.949,"end":513.72,"text":"川普宣布對世界全球的關稅之後很快他就發布了Foreign Trade Barriers對每一國的貿易壁壘他一國一國的列出來那這也是公開文件所以我們也一點一點來看跟我們衛福部比較相關的"},{"start":516.502,"end":540.23,"text":"他提到說 台灣在沒有正當理由下對台灣處理美國豬隻的業者包括進口商 批發商 餐飲業者進行稽查頻繁回訪這些業者 干擾正常營運是不是在亂干擾 我想要問衛福部的立場 是不是是的 謝委員我們的立場非常簡單我們都是科學分析 然後一體試用"},{"start":541.97,"end":551.053,"text":"所以我們必須會向各國講說我們是為了守護國人的健康我們是一體適用並沒有針對哪個國家有任何的所以聽起來我們並不是在亂干擾也很希望我們的官員在談判的時候可以表達我們衛福部的立場那第二個這個陳昭志委員問過了台灣對於訂定最大殘留容許量這個做法錯誤的暗示美國豬肉產品存在食品安全的疑慮"},{"start":571.527,"end":572.488,"text":"您覺得呢我想我們要這個部分從我們專業以及說在維護食安的當中我們這個是應該是說剛剛已經跟委員報告過這是我們國人飲食的習慣"},{"start":590.281,"end":616.276,"text":"陳昭智委員也有說可能沒有辦法就習慣來說服美方我們還是必須要就我們台灣的法規就剛剛史耀署署長講得很清楚我們為什麼這樣子做那為什麼我們的標準定的比別人高這個是必須我們要透明的跟對方解釋的下一個這也列在他對台灣有所意見可是其實很多美國的媽媽也有意見"},{"start":617.657,"end":645.034,"text":"台灣禁止學校公餐使用含有生物科技成分意思就是基改啦加工食品美國持續對這項禁令的科學依據表示疑慮並且不斷的敦促台灣來撤銷該措施這個是所有父母都最關心的問題因為現在大家都必須要吃營養午餐嘛我也想請問小鼠署長的意見我們有可能去撤銷這樣子的禁令嗎"},{"start":647.758,"end":661.392,"text":"就我的了解剛才提到的是校園裡面特定的食品的部分因為這個特定的食品部分當初的立法的背景裡面應該是全國國民很關心食安這個議題"},{"start":662.433,"end":687.157,"text":"那也關心特定的議題之下呢進行的風險溝通最後形成評估出來的結果評估出來的結果呢就變成了一個規定跟法律上面的協助他做法官所以在這個規定底下我們就有機會可以協助做整個市場的稽查才能確立他的風險所以這些是我們持續在因應跟"},{"start":687.797,"end":711.748,"text":"持續精進的一個部分那目前我們持續在往這方面來持續的來對相關的食安的議題能夠把關我覺得署長講得非常清楚這個是在您跟校園跟家長以及台灣的食品提供者作為溝通所訂定出來的這個也希望在談判的過程可以表達清楚因為從第一頁我就說出去的是別人"},{"start":712.368,"end":738.388,"text":"可是近來被罵的是你們 這不公平所以現在我們剛好藉由這個場合表達清楚你們為什麼這樣做你們的立場是什麼台灣人民的想法是什麼家長的想法是什麼那在談判的時候希望可以也顧及台灣人民的這麼一塊那最後就是台灣曾經以狂牛病為疑慮所以禁止某些美國牛肉的產品如絞肉等等的所以之後"},{"start":739.97,"end":743.033,"text":"這個方向是不是有可能會談到美國的牛絞肉?因為剛剛前面一個問題,我還是跟委員回復一下我想我們衛福部就站在我們的一個食品"},{"start":759.266,"end":788.695,"text":"的一個維護安全的一些專業的建議我們是跟談判的這種團這是政府是一個一體的所以是充分的一個溝通所以沒有說誰來談誰來承擔的事情我們共同一起來承擔然後共同維護食安跟我們國家最大的一個利益所以我想那個我們都會根據國際的標準來繼續往最後方面來努力"},{"start":789.275,"end":812.128,"text":"主席兩分鐘 對我們今天其實只是希望你們談判的方向大家可以明確知道而且未來可以做社會溝通因為之前兩位還沒上任的時候曾經發生食藥署就默默地更改了日本進口草莓的農藥殘餘量把它提高了那預告的時候也是一聲不響"},{"start":812.828,"end":835.564,"text":"後來真的開始實施開始進口的時候接到了非常大量的陳情那當然你們現在可能說你們細節不能透露但是我們希望方向我們是知道的那之後你們用科學的證據來說服我們好不好那最後在這邊提醒大家一下這句話我先念過去不過呢剛剛聽了半天好像都問不到什麼"},{"start":836.525,"end":860.802,"text":"明確的這個談判內容等等等一下我們蘇昭瑋可以接著問有一個人曾經說過啊正常的貿易協定跟任何一個政治實體且貿易協定正常需要 需要昭告社會大眾 召開空丁會各行各業的工會加入討論讓行政機關充分獲得資訊了解各行各業的利弊得失我們才能知道談判的重點與籌碼"},{"start":862.483,"end":863.464,"text":"這句話聽起來很有道理吧很有道理嗎"},{"start":886.787,"end":907.513,"text":"包委員我想我們政府在做任何事情一定是廣徵大家的意見不管是產業特別是立法院的一個意見我相信政府這是我們立法院黨團的愛台第一品牌沈伯陽大立委曾經做過的發言所以我們希望我們可以堅守同樣的標準"},{"start":909.213,"end":934.622,"text":"沈伯陽大立委在監督其他政黨的時候講過這些話我們希望這些事也可以同樣再落實下去因為像現在日本的國會他們在跟立法他們的國會議員討論的時候也許不能給細節但是他們給予大概的方向並且逐步的讓人民去了解為何我們可能需要修改標準等等的這些我希望未來大家可以共同做到各部會可以一起合作好嗎"},{"start":935.202,"end":936.126,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝我們一起合作 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時38分）謝謝主席，謝謝委員，謝謝各位官員，我想請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，因為您擔任教授非常久，所以我也想問一個很生活化的問題，教授平常看很多學生的報告，如果今天我被指派一個題目是要寫我的家庭，結果這份報告寫了我的外公、外婆，寫了爺爺、奶奶，連鄰居都寫了，可是沒有寫到爸爸媽媽跟兄弟姐妹，你覺得這個報告可以得幾分？"],["邱部長泰源：那要看他寫的，可能他以外公為榮，所以花費了30分鐘都在寫他外公、外婆的卓越成績。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我今天要幫您講幾句話，我們收到負責談判的經貿談判辦公室的報告，我們來看一下，只有報告封面提到美豬、美牛，今天給的議程題目叫做「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益」，書面報告上有這兩個字，再來就是「主席、各位委員……承蒙貴委員會邀請本辦公室就『美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益』提出報告」，再來全部都沒有了，全部都沒有了。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這……"],["陳委員菁徽：我可以幫你改題目，教授，如果我是您的助教的話，我會幫這份報告改一個題目，叫做「川普的貿易哲學與全球關稅分布圖」，因為裡面全部都在講全球關稅分布圖，最後一句話只有「以上報告，敬請主席與各位委員指教。謝謝！」部長，我今天對你非常好，因為我想幫你講話。來監督食安的人是你，負責把關全民健康的是你，可是談判的是他們，您不會覺得自己很委屈嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想政府是一體的，守護國家也是全體政府跟人民共同的權力，我們就是這個臺灣，我們臺灣人民要活得快樂、食得安心，很健康。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，當然我希望今天我們也能藉由這個機會、這個場合可以做溝通，因為您是國家最高衛生主管機關的領導人，今天您對於未來談判的結果可能有哪些問題會影響到國人，這個是您需要先跟談判辦公室溝通好，談判辦公室再代表您去跟美方做溝通，所以我們等一下會就可能美方在意的幾個點，我們也一起來討論，我們也可藉此機會讓未來代表我們出去溝通的長官們，把我們臺灣人的聲音也納進去。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這邊可能要問一下，因為這個新聞在非常多臺灣的媒體也都有曝光，大家知道自2024年年初一直到2024年年底，美國的牛群就大規模的感染H5N1禽流感病毒，一直到2024年年底已經有15個州689個牧場，其中又以加州最為嚴重，因此他們也撲殺了很多可憐的牛隻，後來又發現牛群感染後還會傳染給工人，所以又發現了36名跟牛隻接觸的工人感染了H5N1病毒。這件事引起國際關注，所以我想問，您對於美牛以及美豬的查廠，現在的態度是如何？還有您最近查了幾次，以及未來經過這一次的談判，您有可能會修改您的頻率嗎？你會根據什麼方式來修改？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們一定嚴格遵守法規的規定去執行，我想委員一定很願意聽我們國際食安專家姜署長來跟你做說明。"],["陳委員菁徽：姜署長最近好像有過去查廠嘛，對不對？這個我大概知道。"],["姜署長至剛：我跟委員做進一步的報告，委員非常非常專業的提到在美國有乳牛等等牛隻感染相關的bird flu，就是所謂的禽流感的疫情。我們因為擔任邊境所有進口來臺灣的食品安全，任何的農產品或者畜產品進來國內的把關機制，所以我們要去跟人家買，至少他的廠在國內，特別是美國的國內有一項叫做quality system，就是品質系統的assessment叫QSA，已經認證之後進一步做所謂export（出口）的verification（認證）之後，他們國內會先做完確定是安全的，然後讓我們選擇任何進來臺灣的都有機會去看我們想要看到的查廠的廠房，這就是系統性的查廠。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我懂，其實美國也有一些聲音，等一下我們可以一起討論。再來，部長，這是您擔任立委的時候，我昨天也把您擔任立委時，針對臺美21世紀貿易倡議的相關質詢跟發言等等都看完，我也很敬佩您，因為部長有堅持住，您剛剛的發言跟您以前的發言都非常的類似，您還是為全國人民把關。最近就您的掌握，美國還有沒有再講類似這些，我們會再去管制進口它的原產地標籤檢驗等等的障礙予以關切呢？因為這件事農民也蠻在意的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們站在衛福部的立場，不管怎麼樣就是把相關的食品按照法規來執行以外，就是不斷的進行科學的分析，提供給我們整體的政府來做，但是原則上所有的一切都是一體適用，所以我們會堅持這樣的原則跟各個國家去談論相關的一些事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊有提到，賴總統投書彭博社，他說他會擴大對美國在能源、農業、工業還有軍售方面的採購，增加雙方的投資量能。在他投書之前，因為農業有被納進去，在農業上，其實我們對美國已經是逆差了，可能還會再增加，或者是降低這些貿易壁壘等等，這個在他投書之前，您有知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想總統提的這些都是得到國際間以及我們國內最大的肯定，我想這個方向是我們應該要去做的。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！所以我們就要因應嘛，因為可能進口的農產品會變多。再來，這個談判內容，其實這個報告有寫到、真的有寫到、真心提到美豬、美牛的大概只有衛福部跟農業部，這個本席予以肯定，但農業部的結語是，4月11號的首次視訊會議，交換意見過程很順利，過程順利，OK，但我們當然也想知道有沒有初步談到可能的方向？就是跟彭博社的投書是不是一致？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是由農業部……"],["杜次長文珍：報告委員，謝謝委員關心並支持臺灣農業。開啟談判只是第一步，實質內容其實雙方都還在溝通當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以還沒有辦法跟我們講到方向？"],["杜次長文珍：就是至少已經開啟了談判，謝謝委員支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊也要請教邱部長，這個文件不知道你有沒有看過，因為在川普宣布對世界、全球的關稅之後，很快他就發布了Foreign Trade Barriers，對每一國的貿易壁壘是一國、一國的列出來，這也是公開文件，所以我們也一點、一點的來看跟我們衛福部比較相關的。他有提到，臺灣在沒有正當理由下，對臺灣處理美國豬隻的業者，包括進口商、批發商、餐飲業者進行稽查，頻繁回訪這些業者，干擾正常營運，是不是在亂干擾？我想要問衛福部的立場如何？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。我們的立場非常簡單，我們都是科學分析然後一體適用，所以我們會去向各國說為了守護國人的健康，我們是一體適用，並沒有針對哪一個國家有……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以聽起來我們並不是在亂干擾，也很希望我們的官員在談判的時候可以表達我們衛福部的立場。","第二個，這個陳昭姿委員問過了，對於臺灣訂定最大殘留容許量，這個作法錯誤的暗示美國豬肉產品存在食品安全的疑慮。您覺得呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分從我們的專業以及在維護食安當中，這個應該是說，剛剛已經跟委員報告過，這是我們國人的飲食習慣，要尊重。"],["陳委員菁徽：陳昭姿委員也有說，可能沒有辦法就習慣來說服美方，我們還是必須要就我們臺灣的法規，剛剛食藥署署長講得很清楚，我們為什麼這樣子做？為什麼我們的標準訂得比別人高？這個是我們必須透明的跟對方解釋的。","下一個，這也列在他對臺灣有所意見的部分，可是其實很多美國的媽媽也有意見。臺灣禁止學校供餐中使用含有生物科技成分（即基改）食品及加工食品，美國持續對這項禁令的科學依據表示疑慮，並且不斷地敦促臺灣撤銷該措施。這是所有父母最關心的問題，因為現在大家都必須吃營養午餐，我也想請問食藥署署長的意見，我們有可能去撤銷這樣的禁令嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：就我的了解，剛才提到的是校園裡面特定的食品部分，因為特定的食品部分，當初的立法背景應該是全國國民很關心食安這個議題，也關心特定的議題之下，進行了風險溝通，最後形成、評估出後來的結果，評估出來的結果就變成一個規定跟法律上面的協助他做把關，所以在這個規定底下，我們就有機會可以協助做整個市場的稽查，才能確立它的風險，所以這些是我們持續在因應跟持續精進的一個部分，目前我們持續往這方面對相關的食安議題能夠把關。"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得署長講得非常清楚，這個是在您跟校園、家長以及臺灣的食品提供者做溝通所訂定出來的，這個也希望在談判的過程可以表達清楚，因為從第1頁我就說了，出去的是別人，可是進來被罵的是你們，這不公平，所以現在我們剛好藉由這個場合表達清楚你們為什麼這樣做，然後你們的立場是什麼、臺灣人民的想法是什麼、家長的想法是什麼，在談判的時候希望可以顧及臺灣人民的這一塊。","最後，臺灣曾經以狂牛症為疑慮，所以禁止某些美國牛肉的產品如絞肉等等，所以之後這個方向是不是有可能會談到美國的牛絞肉？"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛前面一個問題，我還是跟委員回復一下。我想我們衛福部就是站在維護食品安全的一些專業建議，我們是跟談判的……政府是一體的，所以是充分的溝通，所以沒有說誰來談、誰來承擔的事情，我們共同一起來承擔，然後共同維護食安跟我們國家最大的利益，所以我想我們都會根據國際的標準，繼續往這方面來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，主席，2分鐘，抱歉。我們今天其實只是希望對於你們談判的方向，大家可以明確知道，而且未來可以做社會溝通，因為之前兩位還沒上任的時候，曾經發生食藥署默默地更改了日本進口草莓的農藥殘餘量，把它提高了，預告的時候也是一聲不響，後來真的開始實施、開始進口的時候接到了非常大量的陳情，當然你們現在可能說不能透露細節，但是我們希望方向我們是知道的，之後你們用科學的證據來說服我們，好不好？最後在這邊提醒大家一下，這句話我先念過去，不過，剛剛聽了半天，好像都問不到什麼明確的談判內容等等，等一下我們蘇召委可以接著問。有一個人曾經說過，正常的貿易協定，跟任何一個政治實體簽貿易協定，正常之下需要：召告社會大眾，召開公聽會，各行各業的工會加入討論，讓行政機關充分獲得資訊，了解各行各業的利弊得失，我們才能知道談判的重點與籌碼；第二，行政機關出國談判；第三，談判結果由立法機關審議，由於事前授權不完全代表事後不用審議，立法機關必須確認行政機關談判並無違法，並且符合授權範圍，審議過後此貿易協定才能對國內產生法律的效力。這句話聽起來很有道理吧！很有道理？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們政府在做任何事情一定是廣徵大家的意見，不管是產業，特別是立法院的意見，我相信政府……"],["陳委員菁徽：這是我們立法院黨團的愛臺第一品牌沈伯洋大立委曾經做過的發言，所以希望我們也可以堅守同樣的標準。沈伯洋大立委在監督其他政黨的時候講過這些話，我們希望這些事也可以同樣再落實下去，因為像現在日本的國會，他們在跟他們的國會議員討論的時候，也許不能給細節，但是他們給予大概的方向，並且逐步地讓人民去了解，為何我們可能需要修改標準等等，這些我希望未來大家可以共同做到，各部會可以一起合作，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一起合作，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長。我們衛環委員會每一個委員都很認真，都是有備而來的。接續我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","楊曜","王正旭","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","劉建國","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","高金素梅","王鴻薇","許宇甄","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","廖偉翔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部次長、經濟部次長、外交部次長、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判\n代表、行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對「美豬、美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民\n權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}